# Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So like many other people, I'm tired of wondering what CLD ACTUALLY works best. So I've decided to test a whole spectrum of them, using an accelerometer, so this can be put to rest. This will take between 1-2 months to start, but may be drawn out over time if people want continuing results from new products, etc. Once I have the test rig set up, it wont be that hard to test.

As of right now, I plan to build a box out of baltic birch. It will have two removable baffles, both secured with 10-32 screws, and hurricane nuts. The front baffle will hold two speakers, which will remain unchanged throughout the testing. This will be HAT L6SE's. There will be two front baffles, one completely sealed, aside from speaker mounting holes, and one with two 2" vent holes. The reason for this, is that a sealed box will cause different levels of vibration than one that is just measuring structural vibration, and I want both measurements.

The back baffle will be 22ga 12" squares of mild steel. There will be a new piece of steel for each different CLD. The reason is, removing this stuff could result in bends, and that could change resonant frequency of the baffle. So each CLD test will get its own piece of metal, and each will have before and after measurements, so that deadener effectiveness can be seen as a percentage. I will also post the frequency response of each test, if possible (I need to check one what kind of output I can get from my O-Scope, more on that by friday). Each panel will be bolted on at a set torque with a calibrated torque wrench, to keep that from being an issue. The piece will have a 1/2" perimeter to be bolted down to. 

Each CLD piece will be weighed, measured, and photographed multiple times pre and post installation. I may also take video of each test. Samples will all be 6x6" squares, just a tad bit over 25% coverage. Testing will be done indoors, and will be temperature controlled.

I'm open to durability testing, but using the oven is out. New house, and not quite ours yet, means thats not going to happen. I have a torch, but thats a little inconsistent. It does get ridiculously hot here in the summer, I could save all the pieces, then leave them out when its 110 degrees for a week or so. 


Once I've gone through the testing to "rank" the deadeners, I will move on to some intall technique tests/alternative deadening techniques tests. Things such as seeing what kind of differences to expect going from 25% coverage to 50% coverage, etc. I'd also like to test using small pieces vs on large equal area sheet. I've seen it suggested that small pieces randomly spaced works just as well, I'd like to prove or disprove that. Then I'd like to test bracing, and bracing+deadening, etc.


If anyone has an input, feel free to let me know. I'd like to get this issue settled.

If anyone wants to donate products, they are more than welcome, I'll post in the first post what I have, and whats been donated, and by who, unless they wish to remain anonymous. All I ask is that pieces donated are 6x6" squares or larger.

I've updated what people might be able to send so far. I want to make sure no one feels any pressure or rush, the soonest I forsee being able to start actually testing is the beginning of May. When I get products in, I'll move them to the corresponding area. I will also start to build the test enclosure this weekend.


Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
SDS CLD - 1 6"x10"
Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
StP Bomb - 1 sheet
StP Gold - 1 sheet
StP Silver - 1 sheet
StP Vizomat - 1 sheet
Peel N Seal - 1/3 Roll

Things that are on the way or have might soon be on the way

Fatmat
second skin damp pro
edead
possibly some cascade V-2
possibly some knu concepts stuff

That leaves me wanting for the test

cascade vmax
maybe some raamat


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## IDGAF

Might I suggest throwing some non-CLD in the mix also? To see the performance difference? Like, FatMat, etc? Maybe even throw some Peel n' Seal in there. Lol.

I can probably get you a few samples. PM me your addy.


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## Darth SQ

So what will be your standard of consistency per CLD piece?
A specific and consistent weight, or a specific and consistent dimension?
Other than that it appears your attempt at removing as many variables as possible is on the right path.
You could even go as far as making sure the ambient temperature is the same during each test since as you say, it will take months to complete which will bring you well into summer. 
Maybe you could use a spreadsheet to make data comparison from one piece to the next easier since it's likely that the number of test samples will be well into the dozens?
Just a thought.


I look forward to your results :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## danno14

Pm me too. Not sure what I have kicking around but will participate.


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## DeanE10

Looking forward to this myself


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## GLN305

I am in the middle of preparing to move, but I just got in a bulk pack of Stinger Roadkill Pro. I will do my best to get you a sample. When are you wanting to start this test?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

IDGAF - I'm actually really hoping to add some products like Peel n' seal and other ashpalt based products. I'll pm you in a little bit.

Bret - Good point on sample consistency and temps, I'll add that info to the first post. I will most likely do a spreadsheet and update it as I go. I'm also hoping to overlay frequency response charts so that it is simple to read and see the actual differences before and after for each sample.

Danno14 and GLN305, I'll pm you guys in a little.

First post updated.


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## chithead

Just ordered some of Sound Deadener Showdown's CLD Tiles. I could "spare a square" for this test.


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## astrochex

I can donate Alphadamp. How many 6"x6" pieces do you need?

You say you will be using 1 in your (initial) test plan. But, for example, if you decide to change the baffle material in mid-testing, you will need more samples.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Chithead and astrochex, that would be awesome, pm me and we'll work it out. Astro, 1-2 pieces would be enough.



astrochex said:


> You say you will be using 1 in your (initial) test plan. But, for example, if you decide to change the baffle material in mid-testing, you will need more samples.


Thats a good point. I think for sure that the first tests would be with one 6X6" sheet, using the 22ga steel. However, I would like to compare different percentages of coverage at a later time, so maybe a 6X6" and a 10x10" sheet. But I'll honestly be happy with anything people can donate.


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## GLN305

Two 6x6 squares of Stinger Roadkill Pro on their way for the cause. Thanks for doing this test, the more info we have the better.


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## schmiddr2

Fantastic. Do you have any info about the accelerometer? I'm just wondering if some are designed for certain scales, like fine small movements vs longer movements.

I don't hear much about tiles falling off from heat, but if you do then I'm sure you can find a little $10 toaster on CL. Regardless, hope it goes well.


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## DeanE10

The versions suggested to me when doing tests were:

M302 -IEPE / USB interface; 0.3 to 2000 Hz
(KS76C10 Sensor) KS76C.10(1) -10 mV/g ±5%*


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## Alrojoca

Any body have any idea about this company and their MLV, they only do Home sound proof projects, no CLD or CCF used or sold by them. The bad is you need to buy a whole roll of 100Ft, the good is the price is good and it is in my area. The specs seem okay, 1lb per square foot of 1/8 thick. Anybody from this area that want to split a roll assuming it is a good product?  I am not sure I will use this on the doors maybe some parts but not all, more than anything I want it to eliminate road noise, floors and real wall or trunk.
Mass Loaded Vinyl


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

schmiddr2 said:


> Fantastic. Do you have any info about the accelerometer? I'm just wondering if some are designed for certain scales, like fine small movements vs longer movements.
> 
> I don't hear much about tiles falling off from heat, but if you do then I'm sure you can find a little $10 toaster on CL. Regardless, hope it goes well.


I'll pull it out later and post up everything I can on it. I actually plan to test it this weekend. It was actually a present from my dad, specifically for this testing. If it turns out this one wont work, I will pick up one that will, like the one listed by Dean. My dad will be helping me set up the electrical side of things, and building a power supply so that the amp voltage is consistent.


As far as heat goes, that's more for the asphalt tiles.






Edit - Accelerometer is a SainSmart ADXL 335. 3 axis, mini board, very light weight. I was worried about weight affecting the readings. After I test it, I'll decide whether to use it for this test, or if I need to pick up another one. I may end up needing to pick up another one, as this one only goes from 0.5-550hz on the z axis. I'd rather have more than that, even if vibration fades away before the upper limit.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can't seem to edit my first post anymore, so here is the current list.

*Products that may be coming*

Rattletrap
Raamat BXT
GTMat Pro, Onyx, Ultra
Misc STP-Atlantic products
SDS CLD
Alphadamp
Stinger Roadkill Pro

*Products in my possesion*

1 SDS Tile
1 Lightning Audio Deadskin Tile
1 Alphadamp Tile


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## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can't seem to edit my first post anymore, so here is the current list.
> 
> *Products that may be coming*
> 
> Rattletrap
> Raamat BXT
> GTMat Pro, Onyx, Ultra
> Misc STP-Atlantic products
> SDS CLD
> Alphadamp
> Stinger Roadkill Pro
> 
> *Products in my possesion*
> 
> 1 SDS Tile
> 1 Lightning Audio Deadskin Tile
> 1 Alphadamp Tile


Don't you think Dynamat Xtreme is a must add?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Oh absolutely, these are just the list what people have offered up. Dynamat xtreme and peel n seal will be purchased if no one has any.


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## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Oh absolutely, these are just the list what people have offered up. Dynamat xtreme and peel n seal will be purchased if no one has any.


Tell me exactly how much you need and I'll see what I have left.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## req

very interested to see the testing methodoligy you use here.

all the tests that don did on SDS before he started selling product.

dissolve test
heat test
cold test
vertical\horizontal\upside down

including your accelerometer test

i wanna say he did them all using a 1"x1" square on a piece of sheet metal.


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## quality_sound

chithead said:


> Just ordered some of Sound Deadener Showdown's CLD Tiles. I could *"spare a square"* for this test.


I can't believe NO ONE picked up on this...


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## chithead

quality_sound said:


> I can't believe NO ONE picked up on this...


I was a little disappointed too, but oh well.


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## Darth SQ

Maybe he's away.
SDS is definitely some CLD that I would want to have part of the test.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## quality_sound

I haven't been able to get a hold of Don for a while so I went with STP.


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## chithead

Really? I emailed him two weeks ago on Wednesday, received a reply back from him Thursday morning, paid that afternoon, and order was shipped out that evening. Was very quick response and shipping.


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## trevordj

quality_sound said:


> I haven't been able to get a hold of Don for a while so I went with STP.


Ya, it took him a bit to get back to me. I emailed him on a Thursday, hadn't heard back by Monday, re-emailed him and he got back to me the same day. He said he is super busy.

All things considered it took about a week and a half between my initial email and him sending me my order. I did place a large order and had a ton of questions though.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

quality_sound said:


> I can't believe NO ONE picked up on this...


I lol'd, just didn't post it lol. 

GLN305, I got the Roadkill in today, looks good, thanks for helping out.



So far, I have a sheet each of Alphadamp, SDS, Lightning Audio, and two 6x6" sheets of Roadkill Pro. I'll go by the local audio shop that swears by dynamat tomorrow, and see if they can hook me up, if not i'll just pick up the smallest amount they'll sell me. Need to get some peel n seal too.

With my motocross bike going up for sell today, I'm going to try to pick up an omnimic setup before I start testing, so I can make sure that each test is even more consistent.


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## GLN305

Glad it got there, I'll see what else I can come up with.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I lol'd, just didn't post it lol.
> 
> GLN305, I got the Roadkill in today, looks good, thanks for helping out.
> 
> 
> 
> So far, I have a sheet each of Alphadamp, SDS, Lightning Audio, and two 6x6" sheets of Roadkill Pro. I'll go by the local audio shop that swears by dynamat tomorrow, and see if they can hook me up, if not i'll just pick up the smallest amount they'll sell me. Need to get some peel n seal too.
> 
> With my motocross bike going up for sell today, I'm going to try to pick up an omnimic setup before I start testing, so I can make sure that each test is even more consistent.


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity

lol, I have not been able to get a hold of Don for months


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## Justin Zazzi

This is an interesting experiment and I put some effort into one very similar, though smaller scale. I've always wanted to do something more inclusive and a little more serious though. I would really enjoy collaborating on this experiment.

This report from E-A-R Specialty Composites is one of the most accessible resources I found on the subject. It is written in very simple terms and is easy to read, but has some great details about how CLD works and what is important when considering them.

This report from Roush Industries is more technical but illustrates a simple method for determining the damping factor of a system graphically without using expensive software or hardware (you already have an accelerometer, just plug it into a spectrum analyzer like TrueRTA or REW).

You mention using a 'scope for measurements, but I believe the best method is a spectrum analyzer and calculating the damping factor as discussed in the article above. I have cleaned it up a bit and summarized the method in my experiment and it can be found here in the beginning of my build thread.

You mention using 22ga sheet metal. I'm not sure it would be the best test substrate. Most sheet metal in a car is much thicker, no? I realize that thicker material is substantially more expensive, but it is a very important factor. The effectiveness of a CLD is significantly related to the thickness of the substrate vs the thickness of the stiff backing (aluminum in most cases).

-J


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## DeanE10

Jazzi said:


> You mention using 22ga sheet metal. I'm not sure it would be the best test substrate. Most sheet metal in a car is much thicker, no? I realize that thicker material is substantially more expensive, but it is a very important factor. The effectiveness of a CLD is significantly related to the thickness of the substrate vs the thickness of the stiff backing (aluminum in most cases).
> 
> -J


Most floors and rockers average between 16ga and 18ga but I think 20ga - 22ga is about average for door thickness. I know 22ga is what most body shops use for welding panel repairs on the newer cars. It will differ from car to car or truck but I would think it should be fine for this test.


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## quality_sound

trevordj said:


> Ya, it took him a bit to get back to me. I emailed him on a Thursday, hadn't heard back by Monday, re-emailed him and he got back to me the same day. He said he is super busy.
> 
> All things considered it took about a week and a half between my initial email and him sending me my order. I did place a large order and had a ton of questions though.


It's been a couple of months and multiple emails and nothing. I even tried PMing him here and nada.


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## [email protected]

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So far, I have a sheet each of Alphadamp, SDS, Lightning Audio, and two 6x6" sheets of Roadkill Pro. I'll go by the local audio shop that swears by dynamat tomorrow, and see if they can hook me up, if not i'll just pick up the smallest amount they'll sell me. Need to get some peel n seal too.


I can send you a 12x12 tile of Dynamat Xtreme with the GT stuff if that helps?


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## south east customz

I'm sending the sample box of STP today.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jazzi said:


> This is an interesting experiment and I put some effort into one very similar, though smaller scale. I've always wanted to do something more inclusive and a little more serious though. I would really enjoy collaborating on this experiment.
> 
> This report from E-A-R Specialty Composites is one of the most accessible resources I found on the subject. It is written in very simple terms and is easy to read, but has some great details about how CLD works and what is important when considering them.
> 
> This report from Roush Industries is more technical but illustrates a simple method for determining the damping factor of a system graphically without using expensive software or hardware (you already have an accelerometer, just plug it into a spectrum analyzer like TrueRTA or REW).
> 
> You mention using a 'scope for measurements, but I believe the best method is a spectrum analyzer and calculating the damping factor as discussed in the article above. I have cleaned it up a bit and summarized the method in my experiment and it can be found here in the beginning of my build thread.
> 
> You mention using 22ga sheet metal. I'm not sure it would be the best test substrate. Most sheet metal in a car is much thicker, no? I realize that thicker material is substantially more expensive, but it is a very important factor. The effectiveness of a CLD is significantly related to the thickness of the substrate vs the thickness of the stiff backing (aluminum in most cases).
> 
> -J


Jazzi, I'll check those links when I get home from work. I definitely don't plan to use a scope for the actual measurements, just to verify functioning of the accelerometer. For everything else, a spectrum analyzer will be used. This is going to be a huge undertaking, so I'd welcome any help I can get. So far, I think I'll have at least 15 different CLD brands/lines. My main concern is making sure to get test results at 1/48 octave resolution. Reason being, what happens if Brand A, lowers resonance from 50hz to 40hz, and reduces amplitude by 6db. Then Brand B, lowers resonance from 50hz to 45hz, and reduces amplitude by 3db. Brand B could show up as better than Brand A if your only getting info for every third of an octave. 


I chose 22 gauge mostly due to cost, and relative thickness to car doors, as that's usually the first spot treated, and in many cases the only spot. But also, since my goal was more to see which deadener works the best, I would think that the deadener that works the best on 22 gauge would still work the best on 16 gauge as well when simply talking about effectiveness relative to the other brands (even though the absolute numbers would be different). I do have a couple of CLD constraining layer tests I'd like to run as well, which I'll expand on once I figure out the best way to test them.



Tracie, that would be great if you have some you don't need. I'll email you today when I'm home from work, around 1pst.


Thanks South East Customz, I'll let you know when it gets here.


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## [email protected]

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Tracie, that would be great if you have some you don't need. I'll email you today when I'm home from work, around 1pst.


Already en route to you. 

Pro, Ultra, Onyx, GT110 and Dynamat Xtreme.


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## GLN305

[email protected] said:


> Already en route to you.
> 
> Pro, Ultra, Onyx, GT110 and Dynamat Xtreme.


Awesome! Thank you.


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## rton20s

Chris,

Good to see you taking on this potentially monumental task. You know I am local, so if you ever need a "lab assistant" just give me a call. I'd be happy to come help you out with any of the fabrication or testing. I can bring along what photo equipment I have to try and help document, if need be. Which shop locally were you going to attempt to score some deadener from (you can just name a street/area if you don't want to name names)? 

On a personal note, I would love to see the Knu Konceptz Kno Knoise and/or Kno Knoise Kolossus tested. I have tried a couple of times to get a hold of Don at SDS and never gotten a response. I plan to purchase from Knu myself, but haven't placed the order yet. If I can order soon, I'll see what I can do about slipping in an extra sheet to the order to pass along.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks Dustin. I haven't stopped by any shops yet, but I figured I would see what Zam's was using. I was going to try to get some dynamat from California Car Stereo, but Tracie from GTMat sent me a square, although I'd really love to find some Dynaplate. I'm not spending $175 on it though, and that seems to be the cheapest it goes for, since they only sell larger quantities. If you have any extra Knu stuff, that would be great. If not, we'll see where the budget falls. 

Photo help would be great, my camera works, but its still a point n shoot, although it takes 1080 video. I think it does video better than pics.

Tracie, I got your package today, thanks again for helping out.

So, what I have so far is,

2 - Stinger Roadkill Expert Tiles
1 - SDS CLD Tile
1 - Alpha Damp Tile
1 - Lightning Audio Dead Skin Tile
1 - Dynamat Xtreme Tile
1 - GTMat Onyx
1 - GTMat Pro 50 Mil
1 - GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil
1 - GTMat Pro 110 Mil



Jazzi, when I get some more time, I'm going to PM you. I was hoping to meet up at Bings grand opening, but just saw you wont be able to make it.


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## schmiddr2

Good start to the list. I think Audio Technix is a vendor, maybe they will send you a tile of 60 and 80 mil. If you want I can email them and ask.

That GTMat Pro could be confusing for people buying it. Usually 2 different spec products are not called the same thing. ---> Just looked on their site and the 100 mil doesn't say Pro. http://www.gtmat.com/gt_mat_sound_deadener_products.html


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm going off the sticky notes in the package I got. I'll go over each product as I test and email each company if I need more info. I know I need to email Lightning Audio, as I can't find any specs on their products.

I just checked out Audio Technix site, I'd definitely like to test their products, especially being that they have different constraining layer thicknesses than everyone else. I'll be emailing Second Skin as well, as they also have their own thicknesses on the constraining layer.


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## SkizeR

No Second Skin?? REALLLLYYY?????????


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll definitely be testing second skin, as that is what I used last time. Just want to see if they're willing to help out first.


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## rton20s

Not that I have pro gear, but I do have a Nikon D7000 and a tripod. I've also got access to a GoPro (last gen) if we need to shoot some Slo-mo, but it won't be 1080. My DSLR and phone both shoot 1080 though.


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## DeanE10

schmiddr2 said:


> Good start to the list. I think Audio Technix is a vendor, maybe they will send you a tile of 60 and 80 mil. If you want I can email them and ask.
> 
> That GTMat Pro could be confusing for people buying it. Usually 2 different spec products are not called the same thing. ---> Just looked on their site and the 100 mil doesn't say Pro. GT MAT SOUND CONTROL, LLC Automotive Sound Deadener Dampning Material Dynamat Alternative


Chris - It should be "GTMat 110 Mil"


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## [email protected]

schmiddr2 said:


> Good start to the list. I think Audio Technix is a vendor, maybe they will send you a tile of 60 and 80 mil. If you want I can email them and ask.
> 
> That GTMat Pro could be confusing for people buying it. Usually 2 different spec products are not called the same thing. ---> Just looked on their site and the 100 mil doesn't say Pro. GT MAT SOUND CONTROL, LLC Automotive Sound Deadener Dampning Material Dynamat Alternative





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm going off the sticky notes in the package I got. I'll go over each product as I test and email each company if I need more info. I know I need to email Lightning Audio, as I can't find any specs on their products.
> 
> I just checked out Audio Technix site, I'd definitely like to test their products, especially being that they have different constraining layer thicknesses than everyone else. I'll be emailing Second Skin as well, as they also have their own thicknesses on the constraining layer.


Ack, the guys probably tagged the 110 wrong. GT110 is what we are calling it, for lack of a better name. Also, the 80 mil is GTMat Ultra. 

Looking forward to the test results, let me know if you need anything else!


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## schmiddr2

I have emailed Audio Technix and asked them to look into being part of the test.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll be emailing the owner of Audio Technix later today, but it sounds like he's on board. 


Also, there was some concern on a non-audio board about the ability to know what the actual materials are in the deadeners. There was concern that some companies (he specified dynamat) might have asphalt in them without them saying so. So, I plan to email each company I test, and ask for an MSDS for each material. I'm hoping they wont view it as me attempting to reverse engineer their product, but we'll see. I don't expect each company to oblige. 


Also, I'll be building a punch to cut the deadeners to size for the testing. I figure its the easiest way to guarantee all pieces are the same size. I have access to a press, so I can use that with the punch to cut them out.


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## Darth SQ

Well done!
You're definitely removing the variables one by one. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks. Response here has definitely been better than elsewhere.

"why bother measuring if difference, if you cant hear it"

"if something reduced the noise, why spend a higher amount to reduce it more"

And my favorite

"this testing is going to be hard to quantify if your not going to listen for improvements"

You know. Because subjective testing is great at quantifying things, and objective testing can't quantify things.

Oh well, if I wasn't pissing someone off, I wouldn't be doing a good enough job at this.


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## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks. Response here has definitely been better than elsewhere.
> 
> "why bother measuring if difference, if you cant hear it"
> 
> "if something reduced the noise, why spend a higher amount to reduce it more"
> 
> And my favorite
> 
> "this testing is going to be hard to quantify if your not going to listen for improvements"
> 
> You know. Because subjective testing is great at quantifying things, and objective testing can't quantify things.
> 
> Oh well, if I wasn't pissing someone off, I wouldn't be doing a good enough job at this.


You knew that was coming. 

Now just wait until you start posting comparison data. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## DeanE10

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> You knew that was coming.
> 
> Now just wait until you start posting comparison data.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I say ignore them 

The only other piece you will need to work out is the rolling of the material onto the metal... Not sure if it will be wide enough, but I would think using an older style Towel Ringer would be ideal and provide consistency... no?


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## trumpet

I'm excited to see your test write-up. I'm tired of the endless stubborn statements that one vibration damper is just as good as another.


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## FutureFuzz 26

i didnt read all of the post, but i have tons of FatMat i will be willing to donate. and there is a couple pieces of Dynamat Xtreme at work if you need it, ill even pay shipping


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, sorry I missed your post. That Nikon is more than enough, its better than trying to post stuff from my film Canon rebel. My point and shoot works, but its close up abilities suck. I'll let you know when I'm getting ready to start.

Dean, I've actually been thinking about that for a while. I measured the pressure which I usually use to apply sound deadening. I pressed down on my scale, and got 69 pounds. Since I've been using a rubber roller, I then coated the roller in ink, and pressed down on a sheet of paper. The resulting blotch measured a little less than a square inch, 2"x0.375" or so. So I need something that can at least do between 60-80psi. My worry with the towel ringer, is both pressure, and the possibility of it bending the metal. I'm thinking two 1/4" thick steel plates, and a press. 

FutureFuzz, some Fatmat would be great, I don't have any yet. If you could do a 12"x12" of dynamat too, that would be great. PM me and we can figure it out. Thanks again.


Haha Brett. Funny thing is, I knew it would come over there first, and I knew the two members that it would be. One is a die hard peel n seal fan, and all other brand skeptic (but hes never used anything else). The other is someone who builds street cars that push the limits of diminished returns in engine performance, but then derides me for working on my car's aerodynamics because "dodge wouldn't build it that way if it wasn't the best way".


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dustin, sorry I missed your post. That Nikon is more than enough, its better than trying to post stuff from my film Canon rebel. My point and shoot works, but its close up abilities suck. I'll let you know when I'm getting ready to start...
> 
> ...One is a die hard peel n seal fan, and all other brand skeptic (but hes never used anything else). The other is someone who builds street cars that push the limits of diminished returns in engine performance, but then derides me for working on my car's aerodynamics because "dodge wouldn't build it that way if it wasn't the best way".


Just let me know. The camera is pretty much ready to go at all times. 

And on the forum front... I am not too surprised. Seems like a pretty common type of response from a vehicle specific forum. BTDT.


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## spyders03

I have some Peel n Seal laying around the garage I would be happy to donate to the cause. The guys at April Fools Fest can attest to this :blush:


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

PM'd you back spyders.


Also guys, I'll have some video tonight of the accelerometer working. Got it hooked up today to verify functioning. Just need to figure out youtube, since photobuckets video hosting sucks.


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## spl152db

Subd I have a small piece of dynamat. Not sure how much you need. Also have elemental designs 45 mil if you want that. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm probably good on dynamat right now, but ED would be good to add to the list. Pm me, and I'll get back to you tonight. Thanks.


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## spyders03

Sounds good Chris, 1/3 roll headed your way!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Awesome, thanks Spyders.



Well, no video, I can't find the charger for my camera, and my phone takes lousy video. I did get some phone pics though. For the actual testing, the pictures will be taken by a local audio enthusiast, with a Nikon D7000. We'll also have my camera which takes 1080 video, and a gopro. 

ADXL335 Chip on a Arduino Breakout Board. Some of the caps will be changed out to achieve the bandwidth I'm happy with.


Sparkfun 3.3/5 volt DC power supply. 


This is me shaking the accelerometer along the Y axis, which is the axis I'll be using for the test. The X and Z axis work as well.


And this is me shaking it again, with a different pattern. 


I only had two hands, or I would tell you guys the frequency and amplitude. I'll locate the charger tomorrow and get some actual video. Remember, this is just to verify functioning. I'll work this weekend on making sure its accurate enough for the testing, although specs say it should be.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Got the StP products in today, its definitely some interesting stuff for those who haven't had the chance to check them out.


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## DeanE10

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Got the StP products in today, its definitely some interesting stuff for those who haven't had the chance to check them out.


I have seen it in the boxes but never had the chance to use it on anything


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## subwoofery

Sweet... Can't wait to see the results  

Don't have anything to send you but if you tell me your paypal, I can send you a few bucks to help you (and us) in your test. 

Kelvin


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## req

yeah man! great thread so far! 

you may want to start a new one once the testing stuff is put together...

you also may want to post a list of the product you have on hand and the products you would like to get so more peoply might see an updated list of have\want\need.


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## james2266

I am very interested in the results of this one now. Subscribed. I am just about to flip my car stereo machine for a much higher line vehicle but sadly has nothing done to it yet. Blank slates are always nice too. I think the first thing I will be looking at is sound deadening but I have to save up a bit first. It will be interesting to see which brand comes out on top or if there will be a decisive winner at all.


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## spyders03

Package in the mail!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Kelvin, I'll pm you when I'm off work.

Req, thanks. I'll start a new thread when I get results to keep it cleaned up. I may be able to get them all hosted up on a website as well, my dad has had my name registered as a domain name since I was a freshman. I'll have to look into finding someone that's competent at designing a website lol. I'll get a list up later today. 

James, I'm really curious what the results will be. I'm not expecting huge differences between certain products. Of course I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong, as that makes the test worth more to me.

Spyders, thanks, I'll let you know when it gets here.


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## james2266

2Stubborn- I have some left over Cascade VB2. It is not CLD but it is used for the same purpose. Let me know if you want a little bit for this. I am curious if it compares well to the others or not.


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## therapture

Crap, I forgot about this! - 2stubborn- I have the GTMat ready to ship to you. Can you please PM me the shipping addy again...


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

James, cascade is one of the ones I don't have that I really think needs to be in this test. Both the VB-2, and VMAX. PM me, and we'll talk about it.

Rapture, I'll pm you right after I post this.

Ok, this is the list of have in my hands products.

Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
SDS CLD - 1 6"x10"
Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
StP Bomb - 1 sheet
StP Gold - 1 sheet
StP Silver - 1 sheet
StP Vizomat - 1 sheet

Things that are on the way or have might soon be on the way

Fatmat
1/3rd a roll of peel n seal
second skin damp pro
edead
possibly some cascade V-2
possibly some knu concepts stuff

That leaves me wanting for the test

cascade vmax
maybe some raamat

I think that's really the whole list of heavy hitters, and somewhat common alternatives.


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## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Kelvin, I'll pm you when I'm off work.
> 
> Req, thanks. I'll start a new thread when I get results to keep it cleaned up. I may be able to get them all hosted up on a website as well, my dad has had my name registered as a domain name since I was a freshman. I'll have to look into finding someone that's competent at designing a website lol. I'll get a list up later today.
> 
> James, I'm really curious what the results will be. I'm not expecting huge differences between certain products. Of course I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong, as that makes the test worth more to me.
> 
> Spyders, thanks, I'll let you know when it gets here.


TSTF,
Since many on DIYMA have sent you product to help testing, it's only right that the results get posted here. 
Duplicate the results if you want on your own website but definitely post them here as well.
Thanks buddy. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## subwoofery

Got your PM  Waiting for the second one

ORCA has 2 types of deadener: 
Blackhole / High Efficiency Dampening Products 
ACCESSORIES « Focal America 

Dunno if any of the above fits your criteria but I've read great things about those  

Kelvin


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> TSTF,
> Since many on DIYMA have sent you product to help testing, it's only right that the results get posted here.
> Duplicate the results if you want on your own website but definitely post them here as well.
> Thanks buddy.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


It will definitely be posted here first. The website will be something afterwards to keep things simple and easy to read, without whats likely to be a lot of additional posts.


Kelvin, I'll get you back tomorrow.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Futurefuzz, I tried PM'ing you back, but your box is full. I'll let you know when it gets here, and thanks again.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just an update on where things are. There will also be durability testing for heat, using a small toaster oven. I'll use an oven thermometer to get the temps accurate. The test box is being built as we speak, I sourced a local shop for the cutting, since all I have is a router. I'll cut the holes at home, and glue it hopefully by Tuesday. I'll also be getting the metal today to make the stamps. I'm going to make two, one for the actual testing, and one small one for the heat testing, that way size doesn't play a factor into heat failure. I've also ordered new capacitors for the accelerometer board, as the stock ones limited bandwidth to a -3db point of 50hz. The new ones will have a -3db point past 640hz.

Testing size is updated, the test surface total area is going to be 11"x11". The metal piece itself will be 12"x12", and the outside half inch perimeter will be used to clamp it down. The test squares will therefore be 5.5"x5.5", to maintain quarter coverage. This works out, as SDS has a 6" width, but the butyl stops a about 3/32" before the aluminum does. 

I'm working out with my dad how to show the results. There may be two options, and when we confirm that, I'll post here, and want to opinions of everyone that donated. I had wanted to show loss factor using the Half Power Bandwidth Method as mentioned before in the thread, but the more I look into it, and the more I talked to my dad, the more I decided against it. The main reason being that it can only determine loss factor at the resonant frequency of the damping system, and it also seems that recently studies have shown accuracy to vary by large amounts at low frequencies, and high loss factors. To be honest, I doubt any products here will create a critically damped or over-damped system, but it will still be nice to know how close to critically damped we can get.


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## schmiddr2

I'm still slightly confused about the enclosure and baffle setup. Can you help me out here?

I figured the testing would be done using test tones from low to high, record the deflection, then plot these on a graph and connect the dots.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Your exactly right. Basically, I need a way to excite the metal. I'm not happy with hitting it with a hammer, as its not repeatable. So I figured I would build a box, with an inside height and width of 12"x12", looking from the front, made from 1/2" baltic birch. So outside dimensions would be 13"x13", again looking from the front. The front would have a 13"x13" baffle, with a 11"x11" square cut out. This is the mounting point for the metal test piece. It will have 8 hurricane nuts, 4 at the corners, and 4 in between, so I can get accurate torque each time the piece is removed and replaced. The test metal will be 12"x12", and will be sandwiched between that front baffle, and another identical 13"x13" baffle with the 11"x11" cut out. 

Move onto the back, and you'll have a rear baffle, just like the front. To attach to that and provide vibration, will be the speaker mounting baffles, utilizing 2 L6SE's, mounted motor side out, to make wiring easier.

I hope that helps, if not, I'll try to sketch something up. I'm horrible at using computer sketch programs, so give me a little time to draw it up. If that fails, I'll take a pic of my hand drawings lol.


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## schmiddr2

I think I got it now. I think one speaker would be enough, but this might prove wrong during testing or depending on how sensitive is the accelerometer. Plus it would more accurately represent the volume of air per average door (average door also has one woofer compressing the air).

I'm not sure if the graphs curve will change curve angle based on level of power applied to woofer (for the same CLD tile), what do you think?


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## Fricasseekid

Subscribed


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's one of the things I plan on testing before actually moving on to the comparison. I plan on testing power levels, and trying to see whether the frequency response will look the same connecting the dots from test tones, as it does from white noise. I have this nagging feeling that it wont, but that's one of the things I'll find out. 

My reason for using two was more to make sure the driver stays linear, as depending on the power level we arrive at, 20hz will likely push one driver past linear, which could affect results. But, that is another thing I can test. It may affect results the same in each case, which then wouldn't matter. In the end, I don't think I can fully represent what would happen in a door, which is why I'm more focused on eliminating as many variables as possible, and testing products themselves head to head. 

A lot of people on another forum were wanting me to do these tests in an actual door, or with a cut out piece from a floor board, but I wouldn't be able to make sure the products were applied evenly each time, which bugged me, aside from every car being different. I know Erin had thought about doing something with accelerometers and deadening, and I think these are the reasons he never pursued it further. That's why I'm trying to stick to products and application, without applying it towards a certain vehicle.


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## rton20s

I'm out of town at the moment, but I might be able to find a few minutes to model the enclosure for you this evening. It shouldn't take me all that long to knock it out since it is the kind of work I do every day. I got that the box would be 1/2" Baltic birch and 13" x 13", but do you know how deep you planned to make it?


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## astrochex

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> There will also be durability testing for heat, using a small toaster oven. I'll use an oven thermometer to get the temps accurate.


Is the goal of this test to show dampening performance after temperature exposure or to see the effects of extended heat exposure on the materials?

What is your target temperature?

You are doing a helluva a service to the community, thanks.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, the internal dimensions are 12"x12"x12". The baffles front and back are 3/4" baltic birch, the four sides are 1/2". So, four sides, each side piece is 12"x12.5". I didn't want to do two 12"x13" and two 12"x12" pieces to keep everything equal. Probably wouldn't have had an effect, but you never know. Then the front baffles attach, making the box 13"x13"x13.5" Those front baffles are 13"x13"x3/4", with an 11"x11" cut out.

Astrochex, the oven will be for durability testing. I'd love to do heat related tests of vibration, but I'd need a much bigger oven to get the test size pieces in it. It is something I'd like, just can't afford to do right now. There is a guy at work with plans to build a oven for powder coating, depending on what happens with that, maybe I could do it down the road.

Target temp for the durability testing will be once at 200 degrees, and once at 400. Set for 30 minutes each, and video them, so I can see if and when they fall.


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## astrochex

I'm glad to hear that you are doing the temp tests for durability. Your nose might be a guide when it comes to determining failure point. 

I think that if you were going to do a vibration at temp test series, you would be making a consistent test process a challenge.


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## rton20s

Thanks for the figures Chris. Headed back from the NSRA show in Bakersfield now. Probably watching the fights tonight, but I'll see if I can find a few minutes to knock out at least the model enclosure tonight.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

astrochex said:


> I'm glad to hear that you are doing the temp tests for durability. Your nose might be a guide when it comes to determining failure point.
> 
> I think that if you were going to do a vibration at temp test series, you would be making a consistent test process a challenge.


That was my worry with it too, is consistency. Without being able to have a chamber to put everything in, including the accelerometer, it would be too hard to keep temps consistent. There is definitely a huge difference in smells though, even at room temps.



Dustin, no worries. What program were you going to use?


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## rton20s

I'll probably just do it in Sketchup. It is really quick for knocking out simple models like this. I have some Autodesk software at home as well, but Sketchup is quicker and easier.


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## rton20s

Here is a quick model that I threw together to see what the test enclosure will look like. The foreground shows the two pieces that will clamp the metal panels to the enclosure. The background shows the opening for the Hybrid Audio Technologies L6SE. As I have more time, I will model the driver as well as all of the fasteners (including hurricane nuts) and show some exploded views. However UFC 159 starts in just a couple minutes, so this is it for now.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's awesome Dustin, thanks. Yep, that's pretty much it. The front baffle will be able to be changed as well, so I can test one vs two speakers, to see what I need to stay within the accelerometers sweet spot. 

I picked up the metal as well for the stamps and press plates for applying the deadening. Three x 12"x12"x.25" steel plates. One 4' section of 1.5"x1.5" square tubing to brace the plates, and to stamp the durability test pieces out. One 3' section of 1"x.25" steel strap, for the cutting edges of the press. Hopefully I can weld it all together next weekend and try it out.


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## rton20s

If you need someone to weld it up for you, just let me know. My brother could knock it out really quick at his place in Tulare.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, that might work best. The guys I have to weld are umm, sketchy at best. Difficult to get the time to get something done, or in the case of one of them, it will take 4 hours to do a 10 minute job. Let me know when you get some time and we can figure it out.

I forgot to update the list, so here it is. I got another sample of GTMat Pro, and 1/3rd roll of peel n seal in. Thanks to those who sent it in.

Ok, this is the list of have in my hands products.

Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
SDS CLD - 1 6"x10"
Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
StP Bomb - 1 sheet
StP Gold - 1 sheet
StP Silver - 1 sheet
StP Vizomat - 1 sheet
Peel N Seal - 1/3 Roll

Things that are on the way or have might soon be on the way

Fatmat
second skin damp pro
edead
possibly some cascade V-2
possibly some knu concepts stuff

That leaves me wanting for the test

cascade vmax
maybe some raamat


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## rton20s

I won't be available this weekend as I'm trying to make it up to the Simplicity in Sound open house. Otherwise just shoot me a text and I can coordinate it with my brother. If you don't have my number, just PM me.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I was really hoping to head up there too, but my dad signed a lease for a shop in Oxnard, and I'll be helping him take the furnaces and evaporator down there Saturday. That should give me this week to get the box made, and next week to get the metal done.


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## MackDSM

Any update on this yet? Really looking forward to the results! It's one of the reasons I decided to finally actually sign up for these forums!


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## james2266

Crap that reminds me. I never got that Cascade stuff in the mail to you. Sorry, completely slipped my mind. I am also very interested in the results of this with a new ride to fix up now. The new one is a Lexus tho and my feelings are it will require a whole lot less than my previous rattle box. Let me know if you still want me to mail you some and how much you need again. I just looked and I have quite a bit left actually but it is almost 2 years old in my garage so hope that doesn't affect things negatively.

On a side note, I picked up some Alfadamp to try out this weekend. Couldn't wait due to the awesome sale which ended yesterday. Should have it to use in a couple weeks. Parents are going to pick it up in Montana for me and whenever they get up my way I'll have it and I can start getting to work.


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## Fricasseekid

Alphadamp was on sale over the weekend?! Ugh...


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## james2266

Fricasseekid said:


> Alphadamp was on sale over the weekend?! Ugh...


predope sale; 50 % off pretty much everything. I only grabbed one 20 sqft pack but that should at least do the front doors which will be needed with my Morel 8s pounding them eventually with 340 Mosconi watts on them I think that pack worked out to about $80 or so and shipping was very reasonable - they sure have changed that for us Canadians - thanks alot Ant even if I chose to get it sent to Montana this time anyways. I also grabbed 100 ft of 16 ga and some 16 ga quick disconnects as well for the hell of it. It will be nice to have three runs of different looking wires on each side for the 3 way front. I probably have enough good wire already but this will be the third car these have been in and there are several areas on each line that have been soldered which I am sure affects the sq in some way. If nothing it will be easy to figure out which line is for what speaker


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sorry for the lack of updates, had a parent in the hospital. I did get to box built, and got a power supply for the amp and source unit for the speaker I'm using the excite the panel. I'll be soldering on the new cap's to the accelerometer board later this week, and then starting to test things out and get a feel for the measurements I'll be getting. I also got the toaster oven for heat testing, so I'll move forward with that this weekend. I fired off an email to all companies for whom I have product from, asking for MSDS sheets, product specs (some aren't publicized), and the best way to remove in case the need arises.

After talking with my dad, I'll be skipping the RTA for accelerometer date acquisition. I'll be using the o-scope and manually importing the data over. After talking with my dad, this is the method which he felt would produce the most accurate, repeatable measurements, and avoids relying on Fourier transform math, which he believes adds another variable. In his explanation, he showed me the model of a computer generated sound, one of them made with Fourier transform math, and one made with FEA modeling. The sound was supposed to be that of air blowing through an aluminum tube. The FEA generated sound sounded very life like, almost real. It also took 6 hours for his computer to go through all the calculations. The Fourier transform sound did not sound right. If I had to compare, it would be the sound of the voice programs, where they sound almost metallic. It was however, much simpler and quicker to put together (probably why this is as far as most people venture into it).

That said, if anyone is good with Labview Signal Express, and wouldn't mind walking me through it, that might be able to save some time. Its not a very intuitive program, and my dad never bothered to learn since National Instruments doesn't document anything in it very well (and expects you to pay for their training). My dad is working on a program in C, to automate the process of taking measurements, but it probably wont be ready by the time I'm wanting to start.


James, ya if you can send it that would be great. I was looking on parts-express for the price of buying some, and they want around $60 minimum, as you have to buy a good amount of it.


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## rton20s

Sorry I never got with you on Friday about the metal work. Ended up being a crazy day for me. Let me know if this Friday might work for you.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No worries at all. I actually didn't end up doing anything this whole weekend, my mom ended up in the ER friday afternoon. Shes gotta get more tests done this week.

This friday should be good, I should actually be able to hook up everything and test it out by then, after that its just figuring out documentation, and getting the pieces cut and ready.


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## GOYOP

TOOSTUBBORN -

Way to go. It's about time we got some objective numbers on this stuff. I won't list all the things in the audio world that prey on people's gullibility because it is a long list and would divert this thread into more stories of "I bought a $200 cable to connect my subwoofer and it sounds so much better now", etc. (Sorry - don't mean to sound negative. This is a very positive project.)

I want to help out so once you have some data tell me where I can send a couple dollars. It is great to see all the support you are getting here.

A couple things to consider (you may have already thought of it or perhaps your dad who sounds like a great guy). I doubt you will take a set of measurements and then burn your test gear but you may find it useful to conduct a variety of tests. Certainly what you have in mind sounds solid but there may be much more needed once the initial tests come in. You mention different frequencies which is a must. I don't know that it matters how you generate the sound. You can dial up an online sound generator on the internet for pure sine waves if needed. 

I think as long as you conduct your work using baselines and reference levels, etc. then it will be all about the results. Are there any acoustical engineers on this forum? If not I am sure I can find one to see what else you might consider as a test.

Anyway this is all to say way to go and I want to help.

GPM


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## GOYOP

Also I have a pristinely recorded pro pink noise disc. It covers 33 bands and has one test file at the highest level that can be cleanly recorded. It also has sweeps, etc. Recorded by two of the best audio engineers in the world. Let me know.

GPM


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## Justin Zazzi

GOYOP said:


> Also I have a pristinely recorded pro pink noise disc. It covers 33 bands and has one test file at the highest level that can be cleanly recorded. It also has sweeps, etc. Recorded by two of the best audio engineers in the world. Let me know.
> 
> GPM


I've heard of recordings being made by great engineers, and how choice of microphones, placement, etc can contribute to a great recording.

I could understand differences between stand-alone signal generators that sit on your workbench. But I've never heard of how some pink noise is better than other pink noise, or that there is any significant variation between digitally generated test tones put onto a CD, or how an engineer can affect that process. 

Please explain.


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## rton20s

Just a quick update on this. My brother and I met with TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL on Friday evening and picked up the steel. My brother will be doing the work to turn the plate and strap into a 5 1/2" x 5 1/2" punch to cut consistent pieces of CLV from each of the products being tested. 

I was able to check out the test equipment and "stash" of product, and I must say I am even more excited to see the results of the testing now. 'Stubborn' is going to great lengths to eliminate variables and provide non-biased information to the good people here at DIYMA and elsewhere. If anyone out there has a product that hasn't already been provided for the test and can afford to send out a piece larger than 6" x 6", please get in contact with 'Stubborn.' I think the more products we have for testing, the better!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks Dustin, I just got your text. Any time in the afternoon is good, I'm usually asleep by 7pm, but sometimes that doesn't work out so well. I got the power supply, amp, and head unit setup for sending signal to the speakers. I'll be using test tones, at 1/12th octave, from 20h-640hz. So 60 individual measurements for each sample. Ordering the neo magnets for attachment, and omnimic for further experimentation tomorrow. 

So at this point, its simply waiting for the magnets and omnimic. In the meantime, I'll sharpen the dies for cutting the material, and harden them, so I can get the samples cut out. Once those things are done, I'll start testing immediately.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Goyop, thanks for the support. Just pm me once I start getting the data up, and we can work something out.


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## Beckerson1

Subscribed and look forward to the testing


Heard anything on when your expecting some Audiotechnix CLD. I have a good bit of the 60 mil and could spare sending you 1 sheet. Let me know


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## GOYOP

To Jazzi - you are correct in most of your assumptions and understanding. The purpose of having what I call a high quality recorded CD (which now could be a thumb drive) is that the best quality pink noise generator created the original signal meaning it is clean of distortion and has an accurate drop off toward the higher frequencies. This is more important when setting up a listening environment than a test like the one being done here.

The reason the CD/drive is a good thing is that not everyone has a high quality pink noise generator on hand. There are tones available over the internet but no doubt if you stream them they will fluctuate. You can download them as MP3 which should work in most cases but still there could be distortion and inconsistent wave forms. This brings up another reason to secure a reputable source of pink noise because no doubt if these tests show what we think they will, then for sure manufacturers will attack the results as flawed for any and all reasons. The idea then is to have the experiment designed to be easily replicated and with as few questionable pieces as possible. Not "I used bobsaudio.com pink noise from the internet".

As far as your question of recording it versus simply generating it, it goes back to having a reliable source if you don't have a quality audio generator and it is highly portable. So if you are going to record it you would want a high quality source, and then a quality recording job. This means careful attention to levels. A good engineer will take into account the headroom needed to ensure all the frequencies and possible harmonics will have room so they don't get squashed/distorted. For example when recording a cymbal or any high pitched percussion, it is common practice to get a level from the meter then drop it down 10 db from there. Otherwise it will come out distorted.

I have no idea if I answered your question or not. Sorry for the rambling. If you would like more confusion let me know and I will try my best.

Cheers


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## Justin Zazzi

GOYOP said:


> To Jazzi - you are correct in most of your assumptions and understanding. The purpose of having what I call a high quality recorded CD...............


As I understood it pink noise was something that could be generated from a mathematical function with a random variable responsible for frequency. My assumption was any computer should be able to generate the same "quality" of pink noise as any other, but I do not know much about the details or what could contribute to errors.

So the "quality" you refer to is all about the generator I think, and that seems to make sense. So question answered, I think! Thank you for the help.

-=-=-=-

I'm happy to see this project coming along and not fizzling out!

Have you decided on a method to use your accelerometer? The last I remember reading, you were going to use speakers to excite each of your samples, is that still the plan? How do you plan to interpret the data? I've been thinking about this a bunch and have a few more ideas. I'm curious what you have come up with!

-J


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## GOYOP

Jazzi - I believe you are thinking of white noise based upon your description. Pink noise falls off at 3db per octave and is logarithmic. This is how the human ear hears and this is why it is used in audio for testing and tuning rooms.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jazzi said:


> As I understood it pink noise was something that could be generated from a mathematical function with a random variable responsible for frequency. My assumption was any computer should be able to generate the same "quality" of pink noise as any other, but I do not know much about the details or what could contribute to errors.
> 
> So the "quality" you refer to is all about the generator I think, and that seems to make sense. So question answered, I think! Thank you for the help.
> 
> -=-=-=-
> 
> I'm happy to see this project coming along and not fizzling out!
> 
> Have you decided on a method to use your accelerometer? The last I remember reading, you were going to use speakers to excite each of your samples, is that still the plan? How do you plan to interpret the data? I've been thinking about this a bunch and have a few more ideas. I'm curious what you have come up with!
> 
> -J


I have some neo magnets on the way, should be strong and light enough not to screw with the results too much. As of now, the plan is still to use the L6SE's to excite the metal. As soon as the magnets arrive, I'll start testing things to see where we stand. I may need more speaker to get good results, I might not. I'm hoping to get the stamp that rton20s and his brother worked up sharpened tomorrow, and start cutting out both the vibration test samples, and the heat/removal/measurement samples. 

Same goes for how I'm going to interpret the results. My dad is coming up this sat and I plan to talk about it some more with him. I think definitely there will be graphs showing before and after in DB. I'd love to show damping ratio, but I can't find a method that seems to work reliably, especially at multiple frequencies. The most reliable so far might be a simple impulse, and recording the decay with the accelerometer. But, I'll have to experiment to see how that works. In the end, I _think_ that all of the samples will be under damped. I have yet to see a test where a deadener approached critical damping, let alone over damped. Most (cascade, stp-atlantic, dynamat xtreme, second skin damp pro) all reside in the .3-.5 range according to ASTM-756.


----------



## Fricasseekid

What's the current list of products being tested?


----------



## Madcow

Subd



Sent from the future via a wifi time portal.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

This is the list as of right now.

Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 2 12"x12"
GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
SDS CLD - 2 6"x10"
Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
StP Bomb - 1 sheet
StP Gold - 1 sheet
StP Silver - 1 sheet
StP Vizomat - 1 sheet
Peel N Seal - 1/3 Roll
Audio Tecknix


I'm at the limits of my budget right now, but there will be more things tested. I just need to wait for funds to catch up. Things on the wish list are Second Skins products, Cascade's products, Blackhole products, and Knu's products. I also want to try a spray on. Of course, if my motocross bike sells, this stuff will all be added to the list immediately.


----------



## Fricasseekid

Well I can donate a tile of damplifier as well as some of my homemade DIY CLD tiles that I've used a bit of. Might make for an interesting comparison.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...diy-vibration-damper-cld-tiles-real-time.html

What ya say?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I would be VERY interested in that. I remember that thread, and had some super secret plans to try something similar lol. But, definitely, if you want to see how it does, we can get that tested. I'm headed to bed, work at 4am, I'll pm you though.


----------



## GOYOP

toostubborn - I found an interesting study from back in 1983 made by a Master's candidate in the Navy. It is called 

THE DESIGN OF A TEST PROCEDURE FOR MEASUREMENT OF ACOUSTIC DAMPING MATERIALS AT LOW STRESS

You can see it at http://ia701202.us.archive.org/3/items/designoftestproc00heid/designoftestproc00heid.pdf

He did a very similar procedure to what you are planning and you might gain some insights. Especially in the analysis area. I have no idea what your background is and I don't want to insult you in any way. But it is definitely an interesting read. And the laws of physics haven't changed since 1983 no matter what people say.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I will absolutely take a look at that this weekend. And nope, physics hasn't changed a bit since 83 (although my physique has, but I was born in 83 and that's a different story).

No worries at all about insulting, I'm here to learn as much as possible. Just for those wondering, my background is basically what my dad has taught me, and research I do on my own. I've been interested in flight and aircraft design since I was a kid. I won an invite to NASA's Space Camp program in 6th grade for a Space Craft design program, but was unable to go due to money. Initial intentions in junior high and high school were to go through the UC Davis Aeronautical Engineering program, but I generally had problems focusing in school as it was usually too easy, and bored me. I usually aced tests, but didn't do homework or class work. Then I also started slacking off when I started getting paid to jump motocross bikes my senior year. 

My dad's background is a masters in physics, and 30+ years designing power supplies for everyone from NASA and the military, to Honeywell home thermostats. I can't say (and don't know everything hes built), but I know the F-16 gyroscopes used power supplies he's designed. He also is a hobby engineer, building a robotic vacuum 20 years ago that relied on radar to map out the house. He's also been working on a voice recognition/simulation program. His goal is realistic sounding human voice, and is using FEA and Navier Stokes equations to do it instead of the common Fourier transform equations (which result in the metallic sounding "Steven Hawking" voice. I have a file that I'll ask him about sharing, that simulates air blowing through a tube, and it actually sounds real. He said it took 500 billion calculations per file, and there are 3 different tube length/diameters. His goal is to as accurately as possible model an average human lung set, voice box, throat, mouth, etc, to attempt to make the simulation indistinguishable from real human voice.

He actually recently left the company he was with for 30 years to start his own project, although I can't yet divulge what his new project is, it is something that most people would assume is straight out of a movie.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Err, double post.


----------



## Fricasseekid

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will absolutely take a look at that this weekend. And nope, physics hasn't changed a bit since 83 (although my physique has, but I was born in 83 and that's a different story).
> 
> No worries at all about insulting, I'm here to learn as much as possible. Just for those wondering, my background is basically what my dad has taught me, and research I do on my own. I've been interested in flight and aircraft design since I was a kid. I won an invite to NASA's Space Camp program in 6th grade for a Space Craft design program, but was unable to go due to money. Initial intentions in junior high and high school were to go through the UC Davis Aeronautical Engineering program, but I generally had problems focusing in school as it was usually too easy, and bored me. I usually aced tests, but didn't do homework or class work. Then I also started slacking off when I started getting paid to jump motocross bikes my senior year.
> 
> My dad's background is a masters in physics, and 30+ years designing power supplies for everyone from NASA and the military, to Honeywell home thermostats. I can't say (and don't know everything hes built), but I know the F-16 gyroscopes used power supplies he's designed. He also is a hobby engineer, building a robotic vacuum 20 years ago that relied on radar to map out the house. He's also been working on a voice recognition/simulation program. His goal is realistic sounding human voice, and is using FEA and Navier Stokes equations to do it instead of the common Fourier transform equations (which result in the metallic sounding "Steven Hawking" voice. I have a file that I'll ask him about sharing, that simulates air blowing through a tube, and it actually sounds real. He said it took 500 billion calculations per file, and there are 3 different tube length/diameters. His goal is to as accurately as possible model an average human lung set, voice box, throat, mouth, etc, to attempt to make the simulation indistinguishable from real human voice.
> 
> He actually recently left the company he was with for 30 years to start his own project, although I can't yet divulge what his new project is, it is something that most people would assume is straight out of a movie.


My daddy's a fireman and can do 10,000 push-ups!


Just kidding, sounds like you a pretty cool childhood.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, looking back, I can say that now. Ten years ago if you had asked me that, I would have had a very different answer. I got to do a lot of really cool things, but I was also extremely sheltered. No social life, and everything was extremely controlled. But I wouldn't change it, it made me who I am, and more importantly, I wouldn't risk the chance of not meeting my wife. Its not often you find someone as ADD, OCD, anti-social and as sheltered as a kid as myself lol. And one that could care less how much I spend on audio and motocross, as long as we don't go way into debt to do it.


----------



## rton20s

Just to follow up with the list below and the brands on the "wish list" at the end. I did email Knu Konceptz about this last week and they said they would take a look at the thread here on DIYMA and get back to me. That was on the 23rd and I have not heard anything yet. Hopefully it was just the holiday weekend keeping them away from email. If not, hopefully one of us can find a way to get some to Toostubborn'. 

I'd kind of like to see NVX in there as well, and they do have a 25% discount available through Sonic Electronix right now. 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> This is the list as of right now.
> 
> Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 2 12"x12"
> GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
> Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
> SDS CLD - 2 6"x10"
> Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
> Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
> StP Bomb - 1 sheet
> StP Gold - 1 sheet
> StP Silver - 1 sheet
> StP Vizomat - 1 sheet
> Peel N Seal - 1/3 Roll
> Audio Tecknix
> 
> 
> I'm at the limits of my budget right now, but there will be more things tested. I just need to wait for funds to catch up. Things on the wish list are Second Skins products, Cascade's products, Blackhole products, and Knu's products. I also want to try a spray on. Of course, if my motocross bike sells, this stuff will all be added to the list immediately.


----------



## MinnesotaStateUniversity

Fricasseekid said:


> My daddy's a fireman and can do 10,000 push-ups!
> 
> 
> Just kidding, sounds like you a pretty cool childhood.


Oh yeah!

Well my dad can beat up your dad!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, I'll email them this week as well. I should have the magnets by friday, so I can start really getting things done, that's when the tracking number shows. 

I ALMOST had the bike sold this weekend, but right before I was expecting a paypal, he blows his scam cover. But, its going on cycle trader, and possibly ebay, and when it goes, I'll pick up some NVX as well as some second skin, and cascade.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok guys. I want to apologize for the delays. There have been some things happening here that are out of my hands, and will continue to for the next week. As of right now, I have everything I need to start testing. The magnets are epoxied to the accelerometer board and are curing as I type this, however, it will be at least tomorrow before I can even try them, and possibly not until next monday. The current list of products is the same as the last one posted for now, and the die is ready to cut them now.

The reason for the delays are family medical. As I posted a page or so back, my mom had been in the ER. She was back in the ER last saturday for an allergic reaction to a new medication. My sister in law was also in the ER sunday night, monday morning, and admitted to the hospital monday night with valley fever. At this point, it looks like she'll be flown to UCLA today as her lungs are filling with fluid and they can't figure out how to stop it locally. I will get this testing done as soon as I can, just bear with me for another week or two. I will probably be able to work a little during the week, but weekends will be out until this is resolved.


As for updates, my dad will be in town tomorrow with another program he wrote to communicate with the scope. If I'm not in town, I'll post from my phone how it worked.

Also, I have a second method I am going to use to attempt to show long term heat/cold cycle durability. For those who don't know, I live in the central valley, where it is often over 100 degrees during the summer. And since I am mostly riding to work right now, my car is sitting directly in the sun, perpendicular to the travel of the sun. So I am going to pull my headliner, and put a small 1"x1" sample of each deadener on the roof of the car, in a small grid, and watch them over the summer and winter. I will take pictures every week, or more often if the results are more dramatic. However, this means I will need to cut of donations and any other samples on June 30th. Since all samples need to go in at the same time to be fair, this is how it has to be done. (I will begin vibration testing before that, next week depending on family circumstances, but no later than the week after that). For anything that is purchased or sent after that, I will still test them in the oven, and all current samples will be tested in the oven as well. I just think that the in car test is the best way to do this. 

I will be leaving work early to work on this project (vacation time) and will get pics of everything up.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

We can wait as long as needed while you support your family.
Best wishes to you all.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ok guys. I want to apologize for the delays. There have been some things happening here that are out of my hands, and will continue to for the next week. As of right now, I have everything I need to start testing. The magnets are epoxied to the accelerometer board and are curing as I type this, however, it will be at least tomorrow before I can even try them, and possibly not until next monday. The current list of products is the same as the last one posted for now, and the die is ready to cut them now.
> 
> The reason for the delays are family medical. As I posted a page or so back, my mom had been in the ER. She was back in the ER last saturday for an allergic reaction to a new medication. My sister in law was also in the ER sunday night, monday morning, and admitted to the hospital monday night with valley fever. At this point, it looks like she'll be flown to UCLA today as her lungs are filling with fluid and they can't figure out how to stop it locally. I will get this testing done as soon as I can, just bear with me for another week or two. I will probably be able to work a little during the week, but weekends will be out until this is resolved.
> 
> 
> As for updates, my dad will be in town tomorrow with another program he wrote to communicate with the scope. If I'm not in town, I'll post from my phone how it worked.
> 
> Also, I have a second method I am going to use to attempt to show long term heat/cold cycle durability. For those who don't know, I live in the central valley, where it is often over 100 degrees during the summer. And since I am mostly riding to work right now, my car is sitting directly in the sun, perpendicular to the travel of the sun. So I am going to pull my headliner, and put a small 1"x1" sample of each deadener on the roof of the car, in a small grid, and watch them over the summer and winter. I will take pictures every week, or more often if the results are more dramatic. However, this means I will need to cut of donations and any other samples on June 30th. Since all samples need to go in at the same time to be fair, this is how it has to be done. (I will begin vibration testing before that, next week depending on family circumstances, but no later than the week after that). For anything that is purchased or sent after that, I will still test them in the oven, and all current samples will be tested in the oven as well. I just think that the in car test is the best way to do this.
> 
> I will be leaving work early to work on this project (vacation time) and will get pics of everything up.


Outstanding attention to detail!
The ceiling test is above and beyond.
We're all very thankful for your passion to do this project right.
Best wishes to your family.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for the update Chris. If you need anything for the test, or on the personal side of things, just let me know!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on. 

Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out. 

I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.


----------



## spyders03

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.
> 
> Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.
> 
> I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.


We appreciate the update, but as already stated by Jazzi and others, take as much tame as you need, family should come first. 

As with the results, I believe your method for posting results would be the best of both worlds.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Well, the program was able to connect to and control the scope. So it looks like we will have automated testing. He is going to work the next two weeks on programing it to monitor both the accelerometer and the input signal to the speakers, for both voltage and phase. It will automatically be logged in MS Access, and then I will import it into Excel to get the results ready for publication. 

Also, it looks like I will have some time tomorrow at home, so I will get the first test of the entire set up done, and post the results, and pics. Maybe even video.


----------



## rton20s

Chris, let me know what time and I'll try to swing by. Most of my day may actually be open, for once!


----------



## GLN305

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks guys. Just didn't want to leave this hanging without at least an update to what was going on.
> 
> Dustin, depending on what goes on this weekend, I may be able to do a test of the measurement process, if your interested in checking that out.
> 
> I think I'm going to post raw data in this thread as it comes out. Then make everything pretty and post it at once after I get all the samples tested and start a thread titled CLD Testing Results, or something like that. I was struggling for a while with how to best present it, without getting a million posts in between me posting results, and I think that's the best option.


Take your time sir, we appreciate the tests and just wanna see it done right and if snags are hit or family comes first, so be it. We all have a pretty good idea about deadener, this will just give us another tool to make better decisions and possibly help the deadener manufacturers out as well to produce better product. Let us know if you need anything else.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ill txt you later Dustin, thanks again guys. Looks like theyve gotten things under control, but it looks like shes going to have a 6+ month recovery. May be going home tomorrow, depending on how the fluid level is in the lungs, im over here right now.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Well, everything was up and running today. rton20s came and took some pictures of the setup, the setup process, etc. As for the results, I need to go over some things before I reveal anything. I used a piece of deadening where I have extra laying around as sort of a calibration run, and need to work that out. I'll probably repeat it later this week, when my dad is here and work out the buts. As soon as I get that worked out, I'll post the raw data, and at that point I'll be ready to go to full scale testing.


I'm going to say this now, so people are ready for it. I believe the test results are going to be VERY close for the VAST majority of products. I think there may be some highs and lows, but I think similar products are going to be hard to tell apart. So close that this may become a game of pure cost, not even cost to performance. 

That said, I really hope to be wrong. I'd hate to go through all of this and my suspicions not be proven wrong.


----------



## DeanE10

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm going to say this now, so people are ready for it. I believe the test results are going to be VERY close for the VAST majority of products. I think there may be some highs and lows, but I think similar products are going to be hard to tell apart. So close that this may become a game of pure cost, not even cost to performance.


Chris, I agree, this is my expected outcome... Still, I appreciate you going through all of this, it is MUCH appreciated!!!


----------



## schmiddr2

x2. We all know that no sound dampening can prevent all panel vibration so the results should look very similar for most. But considering the testing method using the small squares, the advantage of one over another would be exponential when used on the necessary panels with the 25% method. (This might not directly relate to a better SQ environment, because this is a test it is to get actual values on a given sample panel.)

So if you took the average amount (sq. ft.) of deadener used in a type of vehicle using the 25% method, divide by the testing dampener size, then multiplied by the reduced vibration value (difference between baseline and with dampener), you should have a theoretical whole car "gain" expected for brand X.

At least that's how I see it.


----------



## rton20s

This is really TOOSTUBBORN's thing, so he would probably be better to reply, but I'll throw in my thoughts as well. I was there for the initial SYSTEM test on Saturday. (Not a materials test, not even a base line test.) 

I have to say, I agree with his initial observations. I have a feeling that the test results are going to be so similar that the differences in performance might be just about negligible. Unfortunate, for all of the testing efforts, but still valuable information. And I am POSITIVE that we'll have some people crying "foul" (perhaps even "manufacturers"), despite STUBBORN taking extensive efforts to make this a very controlled test. 

Schmidder... I'm not so sure it will be as simple as applying a multiplier to the provided results in order to see how the materials would behave in a different (actual car door) environment. There are SO many variables to consider. Substrate material, pane size, panel shape, volume or space, etc., etc., etc... I think the results will have to be taken at face value with no accurate way of translating how it will translate to an in-car environment. 

Another thought, and this is strictly my own, is that we might find out that while we reduce vibration at the panel's initial resonant frequency we could very well INCREASE it at another frequency. I guess the key would be to get the resonant frequency of the panel changed to a point where the vibration is either insignificant in terms of affecting sound quality or completely out of the range produced by the driver causing the vibration. Again, just my own thought. 

In the end, I think what we will have is test results for a very specific and controlled environment for various dampening products. People will be left to draw their own conclusions. And as mentioned before, I am sure people will be coming out of the wood work to nay say the results. I will say, that having talked with STUBBORN, he has no horse in the race and is strictly interested in finding out how the products compare to each other.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, sorry to leave this for so long.

I need to clarify my statements a little bit. When I said I think that I think similar products are going to test similarly, I mean that products that have a 4mil thick aluminum layer, and 1.5-2mm thick butyl layer are going to test almost identical. I do however think that a product with a 8-10mil thick layer of aluminum will test differently than the products with 4mil thick aluminum. Then theres the asphalt products and the stuff from STP, which is very different than all of the other products. Of course, this is just my hunch, and could be proven wrong. But I wanted to put it out there.

The resonant frequency of the metal on the first test made it very difficult to measure at a wide range of frequencies. This is bare metal, no deadening. I was actually unable to get anything out of it except at 100hz. That tells me the Q of the resonant frequency is very high, something I will have to investigate more. After I added deadener, I was able to measure at both 80hz and 100hz, telling me that the Q flattened out a little, but it also showed a very direct decrease in vibration. I'll be able to quantify it later once I get the equation from the accelerometer manufacturer, but the peak to peak voltage almost halved from bare metal, to deadened. 

Like rton20s said, its not going to be possible to compare these results to in vehicle results with an equation. That's why this is just the beginning. There are plans to go much much farther in depth than the simple testing done here between brands, including real world car tests. That's why its so important to me to be able to automate these tests as much as possible. 


I will get some video up later today of everything running, I have to get some things done. But I will get it up tonight.


----------



## [email protected]

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ok, sorry to leave this for so long.
> 
> I need to clarify my statements a little bit. When I said I think that I think similar products are going to test similarly, I mean that products that have a 4mil thick aluminum layer, and 1.5-2mm thick butyl layer are going to test almost identical. I do however think that a product with a 8-10mil thick layer of aluminum will test differently than the products with 4mil thick aluminum. Then theres the asphalt products and the stuff from STP, which is very different than all of the other products. Of course, this is just my hunch, and could be proven wrong. But I wanted to put it out there.
> 
> The resonant frequency of the metal on the first test made it very difficult to measure at a wide range of frequencies. This is bare metal, no deadening. I was actually unable to get anything out of it except at 100hz. That tells me the Q of the resonant frequency is very high, something I will have to investigate more. After I added deadener, I was able to measure at both 80hz and 100hz, telling me that the Q flattened out a little, but it also showed a very direct decrease in vibration. I'll be able to quantify it later once I get the equation from the accelerometer manufacturer, but the peak to peak voltage almost halved from bare metal, to deadened.
> 
> Like rton20s said, its not going to be possible to compare these results to in vehicle results with an equation. That's why this is just the beginning. There are plans to go much much farther in depth than the simple testing done here between brands, including real world car tests. That's why its so important to me to be able to automate these tests as much as possible.
> 
> 
> I will get some video up later today of everything running, I have to get some things done. But I will get it up tonight.


Hey Chris, thanks again for doing this! Once you have things going smoothly, I'd like to send you a 1 sqft cut of our next product. I'm interested in getting feedback on it. Can you PM me your address info once more?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

PM sent Tracie.

Ok, well I tried a few more things today. I burned a cd with test tones spaced at 5hz intervals from 20-120hz. Same results, it goes from not picking up anything on the scope, to clipping the output from the accelerometer, before falling off again. Same frequency for the peak, right around 100hz. I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with that just yet. I have some ideas. I know the current power supply for the accelerometer is pretty noisy, I'm going to try to Dell power supply 3.3V out since it seems much cleaner than the simple board I'm currently using for the accelerometer. I may all try running it off some batteries, if that's still too noisy. I also used the Omnimic today with the microphone about 5mm away from the metal panel. I hate to say it, but this may be the way it ends up going. If so, I need to build a chamber around the back side of the speakers to isolate the sound from them, so its only picking up noise from the panel.

These are my pics, not rton20s', from a canon cyber shot taken today.








Here is the averaged response from noise from the Omnimic. I need to redo it with less smoothing, but you can see the HUGE peak, 20db on the right side and 30db on the left. I should have tested this yesturday before and after I applied the "not to be named" deadener.



Ugh, video is still "processing". I'll get it up as soon as its done.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hmmm. Epic fail. Even after watching numerous how to's on embedding videos, I still cant get this to work.

Anyone want to hold my hand through this?


Link is here Test Run of Equipment - YouTube






Also, anyone know how to eliminate the stupid pops when burning test tones to CD from audacity?


----------



## Hanatsu

Export the wav files to disk then burn them with a -1 sec delay between each track. Try CDburnerXP (free).

Tried decoupling the mic from the table? It might pick up vibrations transferred through the table...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## DeanE10




----------



## DeanE10

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Also, anyone know how to eliminate the stupid pops when burning test tones to CD from audacity?


Maybe use the IASCA CD ? It has all of the test tones you will need


----------



## quality_sound

The JL Cleansweep disc would work too.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hanatsu, thanks. I usually actually add the delay between tracks when using the home computer, but didn't have a program that could do it on the laptop. 

I will try that decoupling the mic from the table. I wanted to try that, but all my materials are in storage. Maybe this weekend I can get out there and re-try it.


Dean, thanks for the PM, and for posting the video.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the IASCA and Cleansweep disks are both 1/3rd octave right? I have the Focal tools disk, which has 1/3rd octave tones, and it wasn't enough resolution. Before adding a piece of deadening, the resonant frequency seemed to be somewhere between 100hz and 125hz.

My dad worked on the program all night and said that it will be able to generate the tones itself, so I'll deal with the disk I have for now.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

It seems like using a sweep would be better than individual tones because time domain is important too. The maximum steady-state amplitude of a resonance is interesting, but without taking time into consideration, you cannot see how quickly the resonance builds or decays (how quickly the motion is transformed into heat, and thus how effective the damping is).

Room EQ Wizard for example generates its own sweep and will calculate just about anything you could ever want. Each sweep is quick and the program and makes comparison of multiple trial runs (or multiple test products) very easy. Among a ton of other stuff, the program will find the frequency, amplitude, and duration of all resonances for you. That's the interesting stuff, isn't it?

Also, your non-treated system having a single dominant resonance is not unexpected.

-J

(I love this project by the way!)


----------



## Hanatsu

Sweeps and REW (RoomEQ) would be a good idea when I think about it ^^ 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jazzi said:


> It seems like using a sweep would be better than individual tones because time domain is important too. The maximum steady-state amplitude of a resonance is interesting, but without taking time into consideration, you cannot see how quickly the resonance builds or decays (how quickly the motion is transformed into heat, and thus how effective the damping is).
> 
> Room EQ Wizard for example generates its own sweep and will calculate just about anything you could ever want. Each sweep is quick and the program and makes comparison of multiple trial runs (or multiple test products) very easy. Among a ton of other stuff, the program will find the frequency, amplitude, and duration of all resonances for you. That's the interesting stuff, isn't it?
> 
> Also, your non-treated system having a single dominant resonance is not unexpected.
> 
> -J
> 
> (I love this project by the way!)


Hey, I'll pm you later today, I ran through a bunch of things today with omnimic, all with sweeps, but until I can satisfy a few problems I have with using the mic (mostly related to isolating it from the sound coming from the actual speakers) its just playing around. I'll post some snapshots of what I got though. The tones are ONLY for the accelerometer, although there will be some time domain stuff going on there too, with phase comparisons between the speakers, and the accelerometer.


I totally expected the single resonance, and for it to be big when un-treated. But, both the frequency response graph I posted and the video of response from the accelerometer on the scope was with with the metal treated. It has 30% coverage right now with a CLD sheet, in the center of the metal. The CLD currently on there has the second thickest constraining layer of all the samples I have.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

These ones are also treated, the same as before, 30% coverage.


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## Justin Zazzi

I am not familiar with the Omnimic. What signal does it use? I see tone burst mentioned on one of the graphs. The scale of the frequency response makes it a little hard to see, but that resonant peak near 100hz is much more sharp than the result of any of my tests. My experiment had the sheet metal suspended on string though, not firmly clamped to an enclosure from all edges.

You are having problems isolating the microphone from the speakers? It looks like the rear half of the speakers are open to air and might contribute noise to your measurement. However it looks like your mic is vesy close to the sheet metal so the high signal to noise ratio should overwhelm any interference from the rear wave of the speaker since it is relatively very far away.

Maybe the signal from the speaker is being passed through the sheet metal and picked up by the microphone in addition to the re-radiation from the sheet metal. That could skew the results dramatically.

So, why not forgo the mic and use the accelerometer exclusively? If you can hook it up to the scope, it should have enough voltage to drive a preamp and be captured by your computer and analyzed by any software you choose. I assume this would be the most direct way to measure the vibrations of the sheet metal without any acoustic interference.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For all measurements above, it uses sine sweeps, short sweeps for the freq response, impulse response, and waterfall, longer sweeps for the energy time curve and bass reverberation decay, and long bass sweeps for the bass decay.

The accelerometer will put out 3 volts when I move to a battery to lower the noise level, I hadn't yet looked into whether or not it will work with my sound card. The other probably seems to be sensitivity. In order for it to read anything but the peak, it needs to have some eq, to allow it to read the low intensity areas while preventing clipping at the resonance peak. With the program for the scope, that would be built in, but I'm not sure if that can be done with Omnimic or REW. Of course, if the resonant frequency changes dramatically enough, that built in EQ could also cause a problem with accurate measurements.


As for the speakers interfering with the mic, even with as close as the mic is, they still mess with the results. I held some pillows over the speakers today while running sweeps, and it definitely affected measurements, and I wasn't doing a very good job of muffling the speakers on the outside. I might have my wife help grab some shots tomorrow without and with pillows, since I need two sets of hands. I have an idea on how to isolate them better, but it requires more wood, which has to wait until I get paid next friday. Then I can see if the sound coming through the sheet metal is enough to skew the results.




Edit) Just talked to my dad, hes working on the program right now and will be testing certain parts of it tomorrow. He is basically working on a program that would run the scope, output the signal to measure, compare phase between the signal (at the speakers) and the accelerometer output, and the intensity between the two, all while logging everything into access. It would then be put into excel and graphed however I wanted. He encouraged trying to work on getting the mic to work better as well, just as a sort of checks and balances system, basically saying that if one varies wildly from the other, something is wrong with the test.


----------



## ansuser

Hello, guys.

Looks like its going to be a very interesting test, but I would like to add my $0.02 to possibly make it even better. 
First of all, it is good to see that at least one of the Russian suppliers has made it to US car audio market (STP that is). 
In Russia, most of vibration damping material marketed for car audio take its origin from construction industry. And they share measurement techniques.

It is well known that damping properties are frequency ant temperature dependent. Less known that eficiency also depends on metal thickness and vibration mode shape.

*TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL*, your test setup looks overly complicated and prone to systematic errors:
1. steel panel has square shape. This shape is not the best if we want to measure damping in wide frequency range because vibration mode shapes wil be different and will effect results in almost unpredictable way.
2. Panel clamping has low reproducibility and possible high level of damping, which in turn will mask damping of CLD.
3. I don't see clear raw data processing strategy and all these transient measurements are completely uneccesary.

I would strongly recommend to reconfigure test according to Oberst beam method
1. You would need to cut you panel into stripes (length depends on the stripe thickness, but 1:100 ratio would be a good starting point). Stripe shape is good because it has primerely lateral mode shapes of different wave length. Mode shapes uniformity will help with results consistency in wide frequency range. 
2. Clamp the stripe vertically by the top end in really rigid vice. 
3. Put the accelerometer at the bottom end of the stripe
4. Excite stripe vibration is some way (sweep tone, white noise, even hit with the metal bar at different stripe points - it all works!)
5. Record spectrum response (holding max. achieved levels).
6. Display spectrum in *linear scale for frequency*
7. Identify resonances (you only can measure damping at resonances)
8. Identify resonance frequencies - Call it F0 (it is good if CLD has more added stifness rather than added mass, i.e. treated stripe frequency goes up)
9. Identify frequency range where response is -3 dB from max resonance response - call it delta_f
10. Calculate Q factor  of the system.

Using this method you wil be able to measure damping in wide freq. range (which is really imposrtant for CLD effective envelope evaluation)

P.S. May be I'm too obviouse here with this explanation, but I really wish you all the success with this test and looking forward to see some reasonable (and usable) test results.

Regards,
Andrey.


----------



## Darth SQ

ansuser said:


> Hello, guys.
> 
> Looks like its going to be a very interesting test, but I would like to add my $0.02 to possibly make it even better.
> First of all, it is good to see that at least one of the Russian suppliers has made it to US car audio market (STP that is).
> In Russia, most of vibration damping material marketed for car audio take its origin from construction industry. And they share measurement techniques.
> 
> It is well known that damping properties are frequency ant temperature dependent. Less known that eficiency also depends on metal thickness and vibration mode shape.
> 
> *TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL*, your test setup looks overly complicated and prone to systematic errors:
> 1. steel panel has square shape. This shape is not the best if we want to measure damping in wide frequency range because vibration mode shapes wil be different and will effect results in almost unpredictable way.
> 2. Panel clamping has low reproducibility and possible high level of damping, which in turn will mask damping of CLD.
> 3. I don't see clear raw data processing strategy and all these transient measurements are completely uneccesary.
> 
> I would strongly recommend to reconfigure test according to Oberst beam method
> 1. You would need to cut you panel into stripes (length depends on the stripe thickness, but 1:100 ratio would be a good starting point). Stripe shape is good because it has primerely lateral mode shapes of different wave length. Mode shapes uniformity will help with results consistency in wide frequency range.
> 2. Clamp the stripe vertically by the top end in really rigid vice.
> 3. Put the accelerometer at the bottom end of the stripe
> 4. Excite stripe vibration is some way (sweep tone, white noise, even hit with the metal bar at different stripe points - it all works!)
> 5. Record spectrum response (holding max. achieved levels).
> 6. Display spectrum in *linear scale for frequency*
> 7. Identify resonances (you only can measure damping at resonances)
> 8. Identify resonance frequencies - Call it F0 (it is good if CLD has more added stifness rather than added mass, i.e. treated stripe frequency goes up)
> 9. Identify frequency range where response is -3 dB from max resonance response - call it delta_f
> 10. Calculate Q factor  of the system.
> 
> Using this method you wil be able to measure damping in wide freq. range (which is really imposrtant for CLD effective envelope evaluation)
> 
> P.S. May be I'm too obviouse here with this explanation, but I really wish you all the success with this test and looking forward to see some reasonable (and usable) test results.
> 
> Regards,
> Andrey.


Where the hell were you six pages ago? 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## ansuser

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Where the hell were you six pages ago?
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I was writing that message all this time :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## rton20s

ansuser said:


> I was writing that message all this time :laugh::laugh::laugh:


I believe it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

ansuser said:


> Hello, guys.
> 
> Looks like its going to be a very interesting test, but I would like to add my $0.02 to possibly make it even better.
> First of all, it is good to see that at least one of the Russian suppliers has made it to US car audio market (STP that is).
> In Russia, most of vibration damping material marketed for car audio take its origin from construction industry. And they share measurement techniques.
> 
> It is well known that damping properties are frequency ant temperature dependent. Less known that eficiency also depends on metal thickness and vibration mode shape.
> 
> *TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL*, your test setup looks overly complicated and prone to systematic errors:
> 1. steel panel has square shape. This shape is not the best if we want to measure damping in wide frequency range because vibration mode shapes wil be different and will effect results in almost unpredictable way.
> 2. Panel clamping has low reproducibility and possible high level of damping, which in turn will mask damping of CLD.
> 
> I did notice this, and have been working on a work around for this but haven't been able to test it yet.
> 
> 3. I don't see clear raw data processing strategy and all these transient measurements are completely uneccesary.
> 
> I would strongly recommend to reconfigure test according to Oberst beam method
> 1. You would need to cut you panel into stripes (length depends on the stripe thickness, but 1:100 ratio would be a good starting point). Stripe shape is good because it has primerely lateral mode shapes of different wave length. Mode shapes uniformity will help with results consistency in wide frequency range.
> 2. Clamp the stripe vertically by the top end in really rigid vice.
> 3. Put the accelerometer at the bottom end of the stripe
> 4. Excite stripe vibration is some way (sweep tone, white noise, even hit with the metal bar at different stripe points - it all works!)
> 
> The paper linked suggests using non contacting electromagnetic transducers for vibration generation, stating that it significantly reduces the accuracy of the results if the test sample is contacted by the method of vibration generation. It also suggests the same for the measurement, suggesting that an accelerometer can be used, but that it would degrade the results.
> 
> 5. Record spectrum response (holding max. achieved levels).
> 6. Display spectrum in *linear scale for frequency*
> 7. Identify resonances (you only can measure damping at resonances)
> 8. Identify resonance frequencies - Call it F0 (it is good if CLD has more added stifness rather than added mass, i.e. treated stripe frequency goes up)
> 9. Identify frequency range where response is -3 dB from max resonance response - call it delta_f
> 10. Calculate Q factor  of the system.
> 
> I've seen a lot of studies stating that the half power bandwidth method of calculating damping ratio can be significantly inaccurate, often significantly overstating the damping ratio. There is a correction for it, but I have not been able to find somewhere where I don't have to purchase it (and unfortunately, I don't have any additional budget right now).
> 
> Using this method you wil be able to measure damping in wide freq. range (which is really imposrtant for CLD effective envelope evaluation)
> 
> P.S. May be I'm too obviouse here with this explanation, but I really wish you all the success with this test and looking forward to see some reasonable (and usable) test results.
> 
> Regards,
> Andrey.


In the beginning, I really wanted to pursue this method, but the more I looked into it, the more it became priced out of my range for reliable results. Granted, I admit, there are still some issues with my setup, but as a comparative comparison, I will make sure all possible fixes are made before final testing and results are obtained.

Damping ratio can also be calculated by comparing the phase shift between the exciter and the substrate, which is what I'm working on now.


----------



## Alrojoca

This product is sold on amazon, they have a thinner version also, maybe if you call them they can send aome free samples to test




Thermo-Tec : Super Sonic Acoustical Mat


Thermo-Tec Automotive Products
P.O. Box 96
Greenwich, Ohio 44837

800-274-8437 Toll free
419-962-4556 Outside the US
419-962-4013 Fax

Office hours are Monday - Friday
8 am - 5 pm EST


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Alrojoca, thanks for the info, email has been sent, and I'll make a follow up call monday afternoon.



The testing program is done, just waiting until tuesday when my dad is back in town to load it onto my computer. That means this week I'll be testing the repeatability of the test system, then moving forward with tests next weekend. I'm hoping to be able to post the first full scale test by the following monday.



I had an interested experience last night when removing the deadener from the test panel. So everyone knows, the material I used was SDS' CLD sheet, approximately 30% coverage. Obviously, most people have seen his video on his website, and that is an accurate idea of what the metal SOUNDED like before and after deadener was applied. However, I needed to remove the deadener last night, so I tried to pull it off. I ended up getting the aluminum layer off, while most of the butyl stayed put. Guess what, the metal sheet now SOUNDS almost as it did before any deadening was in place. Now, I haven't measured, and that's something I plan to do, but its pretty compelling evidence that the butyl by itself its not doing much, and that constraining layer construction and thickness is one of the most important factors in how this stuff works.


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## rton20s

Thanks for the update. I emailed Knu again to see if they had any interest, as I never heard back. Still no response. I might just have to order a sheet of each of their products. 

Interesting observation regarding the effects of the butyl thickness vs aluminum thickness.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ya, I hadn't heard anything back either. 


The SDS tile was a monster to get off. Had to use channel locks to grip it past a certain point, and the constraining layer came off in pieces. Hit myself in the stomach a few times with the channel locks pulling towards me when the aluminum tore.


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## Justin Zazzi

As I'm finishing this quarter's differential equations and materials science classes, your project is becoming more and more fascinating! After studying mass/spring/damping systems and stress/strain behavior of materials for the past few months, I'm able to see with a new clarity what is happening. Maybe I can contribute a little better now.




TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Damping ratio can also be calculated by comparing the phase shift between the exciter and the substrate, which is what I'm working on now.


Is this still the method you are using to measure damping factor?

This method works because the damping material resists the change in velocity of the substrate, so the system's displacement becomes out of phase with the external force. This difference in phase builds up over many cycles (over some amount of time) to a maximum steady-state value, and if the external force is removed the displacement of the system will also take time to decay down to some insignificant amplitude. If the frequency of the external force is changing "fast" enough, the difference in phase between the system and the force will not have enough time to react and establish a meaningful value. What I mean is, this process does not happen instantaneously and cannot be measured with this assumption. So pink noise is not a useful signal for this measurement, and a "fast" sweep is not either. My guess is a stepped change in frequency or a very "slow" sweep would be best for this method.

But how "slow" is slow enough? If adding the time for one cycle of each frequency from 1hz to 600hz (the upper limit of your accelerometer), it would take about 7 seconds (thank you wolframalpha). So if your sweep was continuous and increased logarithmically in frequency similar to what REW does, you could have around 4-8 cycles near each frequency along the way (or many more if you start the sweep at 10hz instead of 1hz).

All that aside, how are you going to measure the absolute phase of the external force? The two speakers you're using, the enclosure volume both in front and behind the woofers, the airspace coupling them to the substrate, the group delay of the system and who knows what else seems to make that impossible. If you were to replace the external force with something more directly coupled to the substrate like an electromagnet, that might make this method easier to use. But that line of thinking is moving towards the Oberst Beam method that you responded to a few pages back.

I don't know if anyone else finds this fascinating (doubtful), but I suddenly do! I wish you the best man, and kudos for taking on such a great project. I hope your experiment yields some interesting results.


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## Justin Zazzi

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> .....However, I needed to remove the deadener last night, so I tried to pull it off. I ended up getting the aluminum layer off, while most of the butyl stayed put. Guess what, the metal sheet now SOUNDS almost as it did before any deadening was in place. Now, I haven't measured, and that's something I plan to do, but its pretty compelling evidence that the butyl by itself its not doing much, and that constraining layer construction and thickness is one of the most important factors in how this stuff works.


More evidence that constrained-layer-damping tiles are more effective and worth the money compared to home improvement store alternatives 

As _anuser_ mentioned a few pages back the constraining layer stiffness, the adhesive stiffness, and the viscoelastic layer thickness are all very relevant to damping performance. You can record the thickness of the aluminum backings as a relative measure of stiffness, and you can record the thickness of the viscoelastic + adhesive layers too as part of your data.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jazzi, that's exactly the idea behind measuring phase of both. And that was my worry, was how to best measure phase of the exciting force. I haven't yet figured out how to work that it, and it probably wont get fully worked out, which is why I'll also have decay plots. But if it can be relative, it may work in the context of a product comparison. As for how to deal with frequencies with enough cycles to let the phase differences to its maximum value, we will be using tones, very close together. Thinking 1/24th octave. Basically, any tone (and amplitude) I want can be entered into Access, and the program will read that and create the tone. Then it will record the results and log them in another Access file, which can then be imported into excel for any graphing and math needed.


I definitely plan to measure and include comparisons of the constraining layer thickness, butyl thickness, and weight. Basically I'll have 1"x1" samples for measurements, controlled heat (oven), realistic heat (car roof through summer), and the 5.5"x5.5" samples for vibration testing.


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## Justin Zazzi

I was thinking more about finding the absolute phase of the external force and that path just looks nasty and full of uncertainties.

Instead, leverage the relative measurements like you mentioned. How about calibrating your system by running one (or several) untreated pieces of sheet metal and using these measurements as a control. Then you can subtract the control data from your product data to see the change in phase relative to no treatments. The change in phase between control and products should only be an increase (positive values) corresponding to an increase in damping, or an increase in performance. This works out nicely in my mind's eye anyways.

I hope your family is doing well.
Enjoy what is left of the weekend!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's exactly what I started thinking about, and why I want to run a number of consistency checks as well. As long as consistency between batches is good, then the relative damping will be shown for this system.


Thanks, you too. Weekends are never short enough.


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## GOYOP

TOOSTUBBORN,

Have you looked at the paper I referenced from the Navy testing damping properties for ship hulls? If you haven't you will find some valuable references / ideas.

You mention some issues you are having. Keep in mind there is no possible way to eliminate all the imperfections in a test setting. Actually the best way to test this would be to take a stripped out car body and apply the products one at a time. Then shoot a sweep tone at it from underneath and measure the response inside the body with a super flat reference mic.

With that in mind your setup is a good start. You mention decoupling the sound from the speakers in relation to the microphone. You should be able to do this with some minor changes to your test box. You would then create a baseline waveform that you subtract out from all the samples tests so whatever "spillage" from the speakers to the mic are removed from all the test runs.. There are a variety of ways to subtract the common baseline waveform.

I am happy to help build text boxes, provide test tone sweeps, baseline testing, audio advice, accelerometer issues, etc. Let me know what is bogging you down if you want and I will try to help you with a solution. I do it for a living.

Question - have you considered using a transducer for measuring the results? Or as an extra data set? Depending on the device it should have a negligible effect on the results and it would be the same on each sample. The accelerometer is currently being used for this but there may be more suitable transducers for this application. I am not sure but will look into it if you like.

Keep at it.

Greg


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks for the input Greg.

I have read though most of the file you linked, and to be honest, I'll need a couple more reads before I get everything down. Some of the math is definitely over my head. My dad also has it, but hasn't had a chance to look it over. He's been trying to get permits for his reverse osmosis setup and acid neutralization for his shop, but its hard when local officials have no idea what in the world those things are. It took 2 months to get the furnaces and evaporator ok'd, and he still needs to add a cooling system for the evaporator.

I hadn't actually though about making the baseline run and subtracting it from the results, but I was planning on making baseline runs without the metal in place to see what the differences were, so that wouldn't be hard to do. 

I haven't looked past the accelerometer mostly due to cost. When I first started this, I had a little more money to spare, but rent went up where were at, and the job my wife had lined up fell through. I am in the running for a supervisor position which could give more options for testing (due to the raise), but being that I'm by far the youngest of the candidates, it could come down to office politics.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just to try it, I measured response with the mic, without the metal, and with the metal (butyl rubber still on it). I also took a measurement including phase, with and without. For without metal measurements, the clamping ring was still bolted and torqued, just not with the metal. 

Without metal

With metal

Without metal with phase

With metal with phase


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## Hanatsu

Interesting that there's practically no phase shift in the usable range of the 'with metal' plot...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I thought so too, but im not 100% confident with the phase measurements with the metal on. It seemed to struggle to measure phase with the metal, but had no problems without it. Im going to repeat the tests today and see what I get.


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## Justin Zazzi

What do you think the measurements with no metal will show you?

Wouldn't it be more interesting comparing bare metal to treated metal?


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## rton20s

I think he is just testing how the mic will react to strictly the drivers with no additional resonance from the metal. I believe the bare metal will still become the "baseline" measurement. 

On a side note, I placed an order from Knu Konceptz today, so we will have some Kno Knoise and Kno Knoise Kolossus Edition to add to the testing.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin is right, theres definitely a reason for testing without the metal. I wanted to get a measurement without it in place, one with it, and another set of both after I isolate the back of the speakers from the room. That way it gives me a better idea of the limitations of the mic due to bleed through. Im also still on track to have the accelerometer up and running this week.

Bare metal will absolutely still be the baseline.



Dustin, let me know when it comes in, I'm looking forward to comparing it to the others.


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## GOYOP

TooStubborn,

More ideas that you probably have already considered but maybe will help. You seem super thoughtful about your testing which is commendable. However, any rig you build will not be perfect and can always be improved so don't let it keep you from starting to run tests. You may find that some things that seemed critical are not and other things you never considered will be problematic.

*Ideas:*
1) In any testing calibration and baseline are key. Even if the test system is flawed you will document the flaws and they will apply to every test.

2) If you are able, the best thing you could do is to EQ the mic for a flat response. This is probably the single biggest source of error. What is the peak to peak voltage you are getting out of it with an 80 - 90 db source signal? Do you have the response curve from the manufacturer? Get the mic response flat and then the peaks, etc, even at resonance will not overdrive your mic. If you do experience overdrive back off the gain a bit.

3) You mention phase measurement - is there any reason you can't just use the source signal against the measured signal? I don't even know of any better method because all methods involve a transducer whether it is the actual speaker or something to measure what the speaker is doing. I was always taught to measure the two signals and compare them.

4) Isolating the back of the speakers should be simple. Close them in with MDF and stuff them with insulation. You will not get it to zero but it will be negligible. Out on the highway there will be a variety of entry points for road noise that are much louder.

It's OK to get it reasonably tight then run a batch. It will show you some important things and then you can decide how much you need to improve the test setup.

Greg


----------



## GOYOP

TooStubborn,

I just thought of something that might be an awesome idea. In the lab we always use the best practices to make our tests as accurate and clean and reproducible as possible. I think we are all agreed on that.

But as far as an input sound source, what if you took a super flat microphone, strapped it to the underside of your car, and went out and measured a variety of road noise samples?? You could do concrete freeway, blacktop highway, a bridge, a tunnel, whatever. Tone sweeps, etc, should be done also but we are trying to dampen road noise. And road noise has unique signature. Of course it would be different depending upon the vehicle size and tires, etc. but any sample would be a good test medium.

My 2 cents.

Greg

PS I can make some sample if you like.


----------



## mda185

Here is a free tool that may make this task easier. It will help identify the difference between two audio signals and makes mic calibration a non-issue as long as you are not overdriving the mic or the digital to analog converter inputs. 

Audio DiffMaker

I have used this company's flagship product, Praxis audio measurement software for more than a decade. Bill Waslo, founder of LIberty Instruments, was one of the legends of DIY audio 20 years ago and published multiple articles in Speaker Builder and AudioXpress magazines. He had an earlier audio measurement package that was very DIY friendly in the early days of computer based speaker design software. It was cheap and accurate but unfortunately based on DOS and it faded from use as Windows took over the world. Praxis was pretty expensive when I bought the package that included a calibrated mic and USB amplifier and audio interface box. You won't need any of that to use Audio DiffMaker.


----------



## spyders03

Any news on this?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've been doing a lot of work, but mostly silent, as I've been trying to get together money to pick up a better accelerometer. But it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Just don't have the budget right now. The problem with the current accelerometer is it doesn't have the signal to noise ratio to pick up the full range from 20-500hz. I was thinking of eq'ing the response to get it to work, with a note in the results that that had been done, but the speakers, amp, and power supply cant handle it. From 90hz to 70hz the response drops 30db. I have about a 20db range the accelerometer will pick up. I would need 20db more head room, but that would put everything I have way past its safe range. At the least, I would need a subwoofer, and a better power supply. 



That said, testing has actually begun. I've been dialing in the setup for the last weekend, and actual final results will be coming tomorrow. Unfortunately, the microphone is the only measurement device I have for this at this point. It will be placed as it has been shown in the pictures, however it now has a jig that holds it in the same place every time. I'll be using the Omnimic mic, and REW for results. I'll have both frequency response, and waterfall graphs. REW is soo much easier to overlay graphs than Omnimic is. 

I will be starting with the asphalt based products, only because they clean off of the metal the easiest. And with that...........I will now give my SUBJECTIVE opinions on the products, based on cutting them out, handling, etc. Keep in mind, this is only subjective, and not based on results from testing with the mic.


Peel N Seal - One of the thinnest feeling constraining layers. Aluminum seems to be coated, I'll follow up with a polish test. Definitely has a smell to it that butyls don't. My wife knew exactly when I opened the box. Has a good backing paper. Cut relatively easily.

Alphadamp and SDS CLD Tiles - The butyl seems similar in both cases. The aluminum is also thick in both, just a tiny bit thicker on the alphadamp. That said, I expected them to both cut similarly, and especially with alphadamp being 20mil thinner overall. That said, alphadamp was significantly more difficult to cut. I'm going have to ask what grade of aluminum brands are using now, because that's the only thing I can think of that would make it that much harder to cut. Both these products are two of only 3 products that could support themselves while just holding the corner of the sheet. 

Dynamat, Stinger Road Kill Expert, and GTMat Onyx - All three are very similar as far as butyl consistency. They all have the most sticky butyl of any of the products, almost oozing. The backing on dynamat and road kill is paper based, and sticks well. The onyx backing is a pretty thick plastic, and sticks well. All cut similarly well.

GTMat 50mil, 80mil, and 110mil - All three had thin constraining layers. There has been some speculation by some that the constraining layer is not actually aluminum. I will be testing this. It seems very similar to the Peel N Seal layer, and it is definately coated in something. The backing paper is not up to par with the others, its a very thin plastic layer, but at least with the samples I received, it doesn't seem to stay in place very well.

Lighting Audio Dead Skin - By far the lightest feeling product in the test. Also seems asphalt based. Also has the worst backing paper, it seems to want to fall right off. Its possible that this sample is old, but I'll test it anyways. Looking around, I couldn't find any specifications for it anywhere.

STP Vizomat - This is an oem type free layer damper. It was very easy to cut. Plastic backing, that sticks well. The website says its a bitumen product, which is a form of asphalt, but there is no smell.

STP Gold and Silver - Both products are an butyl products, gold having both a thicker constraining layer, and butyl layer. It seems very stiff for the constraining layer thickness, and has an embossed pattern in the constraining layer. 

STP Bomb - This is the thickest product of the whole group. It is also the third of the products that can support its own weight by holding the corner. It also seems very stiff for the constraining layer thickness. This is also a mastic-bitumen based product, but like vizomat, has no smell.

Knu Konceptz Resonance Control and Kolossus - Both products are butyl based. Both have decent back papers, and seem to cut well. I haven't had much time to play with either, but I have a large amount of both, so I'll post more as I get a better impression of them.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for the update Chris. Sorry I haven't really been around to help. Seems like the last few weeks have been crazy, and this weekend will be no different. I might have some time in the evenings starting next week, just shoot me a text when you might be working on this and I'll do my best to swing by and help.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks Dustin, its been pretty hectic here too. Just finalized the refinance on the house last week, drama at work that could lead to termination for some people for breaking certain laws, and trying to get ready for promotional testing and interviews. Seems like when one thing ends, another starts up. To top it all off, I started riding to work again this morning, and lost a shoe to a pitbull on the way. I was lucky my wife mad me wear my skate shoes, because if I was in running shoes, it would have ripped me off the bike. Found out later animal control put it down after it killed another stray.


----------



## spyders03

Great update Chris! First impressions are nice since most people order these online and don't get to handle them. Very interested to see the results.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So, my calipers and micrometers are eluding me tonight, (probably at my sister in laws), but there is at least one deviation from published specs so far. This one is so blatant that its visible. After reading published specs for Knu Konceptz Kolossus, I had to re-look at some things. Mostly, comparing its constraining layer to Alphadamps. Both advertise as having a 10mil thick aluminum constraining layer, but Alphadamp was significantly more difficult to cut. I went back and cut a small sample to tear apart and measure. Before removing the butyl from the aluminum, I tried flexing both, and had my wife do the same. The conclusion was both of us thought the Alphadamp was much stiffer. I then started pulling the butyl from the aluminum (took about 10 mins per sample, for about a 1" square section). The Alphadamp is definitely thicker than the Kolossus. Since I don't have a way of objectively measuring until tomorrow, I'll just say for now that it seems like the Alphadamp aluminum is 3mil thicker. If Alphadamp's aluminum is truly 10mil thick, that would put the Kolossus aluminum at 7mil, which is the same as what Knu advertises its cheaper (20% cheaper) Resonance Control line as having.


----------



## rton20s

Interesting find. And I had high hopes for Knu, since they do seem to be a good value. If you don't find your measurement tools, let me know. I believe I still have mine kicking around the garage somewhere.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, got my calipers. Alphadamp measures between 9.5-10.5mil. Stp-atlantic's Bomb measures 4mil (stated thickness is 100 microns, or 3.9mil). Kolossus measures 7mil, BUT that is with a protective plastic film covering the aluminum. I couldn't peel it off at work very well, but that film is between 1-2mil thick. When I get home, I'll get the film off and measure just the aluminum. Remember, stated thickness is 10mil.


----------



## NoTraction

Subscribed. Looks to be interesting.


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ok, got my calipers. Alphadamp measures between 9.5-10.5mil. Stp-atlantic's Bomb measures 4mil (stated thickness is 100 microns, or 3.9mil). Kolossus measures 7mil, BUT that is with a protective plastic film covering the aluminum. I couldn't peel it off at work very well, but that film is between 1-2mil thick. When I get home, I'll get the film off and measure just the aluminum. Remember, stated thickness is 10mil.


Definitely an interesting find! I would definitely like to know the difference between the standard Kno Knoise and the Kolossus. Are they both using undersized constraining layers? Do they both use the same constraining layer with the Kolossus simply using a thicker adhesive layer? (7 mil is the stated thickness of the standard Kno Knoise after all.) And of course the most important question, how do they perform? Really looking forward to the results of the testing.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So they are definitely using undersized constraining layers on both products. I haven't been able to get the plastic layer off, next step is to try chemicals. Its very slick, and the best tweezers I have won't grab it firm enough to peel it off. So, with the plastic film still in place, the Kolossus constraining layer averages 7mil thick, instead of the 10mil thick advertised. Resonance Control averages 4mil thick with the plastic film in place, instead of 7mil thick as advertised. Keep in mind, they are claiming the aluminum layer is 7mil and 10mil thick respectively, saying nothing about a plastic film.

I'm going to try a couple of things tonight to get the film off and get a final measurement, and then email them, but I'm not sure I'll get an answer. I know both myself and rton20s emailed them about participating in the testing, and never got a response.


----------



## schmiddr2

Plastic film is cheap so I can see using it to protect the aluminum; it obviously doesn't work as a constraining layer and should not be used to help bring up the mil for advertising purposes.


How is the accelerometer coming? I have been thinking about other ways to measure the flex. There are distance measurement photo eyes, or something I work with a lot is a cam/spring with an analog sensor. Not sure how accurate the readings would be with a regular DMM, but just wanted to throw out a couple things I've been thinking about.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, its not that the film is a problem, unless they are padding their numbers with it. But even with the film padding the numbers, they're still 30% and 43% off of the numbers they claim for constraining layer thickness. I'm really curious if they'll respond to a query about that, and what it is they'll say. Based on published specs, it theoretically should be a front runner, and rton20s purchased some to test after trying to see if they would donate a sample for it.


I posted a few posts up about the accelerometer, but basically the one I have now isn't going to be good enough. There are two ways to fix it, replace it, or eq the response, as GOYOP and my dad had suggested. Unfortunately, some things fell through for my wife, so I'm not able to pursue either option, as eq'ing the response enough to work puts the power supply past its abilities, and even if it was up to the task, it would be putting the speakers significantly past the safe point, both thermally and excursion wise. I would need a high excursion sub to get it to work. 

At this point, I'll be using the mic, as Jazzi did in his project log, just in a more controlled environment. I'll have to get both frequency response of the bare metal, and damped metal, and waterfall plots of both. I'll have the first set of results to post tomorrow. I wont be able to test friday as I have testing for a supervisor position, but I will be testing sat and sun as well. I may have some raamat coming, if so that will be the last of the products to be installed on the roof of my car for long term heat testing.


Do you have any links or search ideas for the alternate measurements? I'd like to still look into it (who knows, I may get the position).


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Update,

KnuKonceptz Kolossus - Constraining Layer thickness, no plastic film - 4mil - Advertised as 10mil

Knukonceptz Resonance Control - Constraining Layer thickness, no plastic film - 3mil - Advertised as 7mil

I'll prepare an email tomorrow morning.


----------



## GLN305

When you send an e-mail to them, you might be alerting them that their supplier isn't delivering what they order. I bet they don't even open boxes to QC.


----------



## fast94tracer

wow I'm surprised that knu would do that there products are normally pretty decent.


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## fast94tracer

also you may want to try and call and talk to them. i was able to get thru to make an order for wire and have them replace a defective fuse block and they were very helpful and immediately sent new part.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I was thinking at first it was quality control. It still could be, but it also seems it could be cost cutting. Its less than half the thickness its supposed to be. Being that they claim to manufacture their own products, im really curious to see what they say.


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## fast94tracer

yeah me too and it makes me wonder about their other products


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## GLN305

I've used some of their RCA cables, power wire and distro/fuse blocks and was much less than impressed. It all felt cheap and the RCA's fell apart, cable pants weren't glued and the signal wires weren't shielded and much smaller conductors than normal. Only bought from them once and probably never will again. Just my $.02



fast94tracer said:


> yeah me too and it makes me wonder about their other products


----------



## rton20s

The information on the Knu products is definitely disappointing. I've had good luck with them in the past. Even if the performance is up to par, the misleading specs going unaddressed is not good business. I'm as much interested now in Knu's response to these findings as I am their test results. 

It does have me more curious if this was part of the reason they declined (through lack of follow up response) to be a part of this testing.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Email has been sent to KnuKonceptz. I will post my email and the response I get if and when they respond.


Also, I have been advised that Alphadamp uses a higher grade foil and higher temper than normal, which is what makes the product harder to bend and cut, but should also make it perform better. This could explain the things I experienced when trying to cut it vs another product that is very similar, yet much easier to cut and manipulate.

I'll be making a video later today, showing the physical measuring of both Knu products, and the GTMat asphalt products. This will include showing how flammable the plastic film on Knu's products is, and testing the aluminum on GTMat's products to either vindicate or silence the critics that do not believe it to be aluminum.


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## rton20s

How many of the products contain a film over the aluminum/foil layer? If more than one, are you only testing the Knu because of the amount of product you have?


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## spl152db

rton20s said:


> How many of the products contain a film over the aluminum/foil layer? If more than one, are you only testing the Knu because of the amount of product you have?


elemental designs did this but their layer wasn't aluminum it was mylar.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll be testing all of them for this. I know for sure that there were complaints about GTMat, with people claiming that it wasn't actually aluminum. Whatever the coating on Peel n Seal is, its very similar to GTMat as well. I burned Alphadamp while I was at it, and nothing happened, but I'm curious about Dynamat as well as far as a plastic film. I have enough of each to measure, and test for coatings, so I'll do them all.


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## GOYOP

TooStubborn - *Tell me what accelerometer you would like to have and I will see about getting you one.*

Also - I'm dying over here! When are we going to have some preliminary testing? The suspense is killing me.

It sounds like your plate is full and you are juggling several things at one time. Lots of us can relate.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Goyop, PM sent. Ya, when I started, things were pretty empty, but some things fell through and that made things much more hectic around here. However, the bulk of things is done, and aside from an interview for a promotion next friday (after testing today), my plate is now empty.


I have everything set up to start tomorrow morning. I will be testing the three asphalt products from GTMat to start with. Everything will be filmed, for ultimate transparency. 


KnuKonceptz emailed me back. I'm going to give them a chance to work with me, until everything has run its course. Right now were looking into a few possibilities. I'll know more monday, and it will probably be finalized tuesday.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Goyop, PM sent. Ya, when I started, things were pretty empty, but some things fell through and that made things much more hectic around here. However, the bulk of things is done, and aside from an interview for a promotion next friday (after testing today), my plate is now empty.


I have everything set up to start tomorrow morning. I will be testing the three asphalt products from GTMat to start with. Everything will be filmed, for ultimate transparency. 


KnuKonceptz emailed me back. I'm going to give them a chance to work with me, until everything has run its course. Right now were looking into a few possibilities. I'll know more monday, and it will probably be finalized tuesday.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, so Knu has emailed me back. Originally, I was told a product that does not meet spec is not a Knu product. I was also told that they double checked 3 samples of each product and all three measured to spec (without saying what that spec was or how they measured). They asked me to send them a sample of the product I have. They told me if there was a problem with their build house, they would correct it (their website claims that they manufacture everything they sell). They also said they were unable to get it to light on fire, and couldn't find a film coating on it either. They asked if I was talking about the backing paper, or the paper separation sheets.

I emailed back explaining how I measured. I also emailed back explaining about the plastic film. I said I would be more than willing to send them a sample of what I have, but I'd like to receive a new sample if possible.

They emailed me back and told me that they measured more samples, and they all measured to spec (again no mention of what they consider spec, or how they measured). They said they did find a coating of some sort on the aluminum, and they are going to ask their build house what it is.

Here are the measurement videos.











We have company tonight so I can't measure, but its set up to knock out a few samples when I get home from work tomorrow, and I'm going to measure the GTMat asphalt products tonight. It'll probably take a couple of hours to load the video (i swear the walls are made of lead here and the wireless sucks), so I'll post them in the morning.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for all this extra work Chris. As I stated before, this is particularly disappointing for me. I was the one that ordered and supplied the Knu samples as I had every intention of purchasing and using their deadener for my own build. Until this issue is resolved, there is no way that I could in good conscience purchase or endorse the deadener from Knu Konceptz. Unfortunate, because I have had such good luck with the other products that they sell.


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## Beckerson1

Thanks SO much for doing all this testing.

Not only will this benefit everyone here with in depth test. This ALSO benefits the companies. It's my hope, and I'm sure yours as well, companies will take this information and further their own products. Even bring to light potential build house shortcuts, etc. In which you found with Knu. As to why its like it is we can speculate all we want. That's not the point of the thread.

I look forward to see your testing. Keep it up the good work


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## toolparabols

Damn i just ordered 50 sq ft of knukonceptz deadener. I feel cheated, and now afraid that i have used some of it.


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## Ali888

nice testing


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## theunderfighter

I just found the thread. And I'm not going to read through it to see what products you do/don't have, but I have some AudioTechnix 60mil I'm willing to donate.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control

Butyl rubber viscoelastic layer

80mil total thickness

7mil aluminum constraining layer thickness

0.71 lbs per square foot

-50 to 350F temp range

10 to 130F operating temp range

Meets FMVSS 302 standards for flammability

ACTUAL TESTING

Total thickness - 80mil

Constraining layer thickness - 3mil

Approximately 0.74 lbs per square foot

Notes - The constraining layer on the sample I received directly from KnuKonceptz is less than half as thick as they claim it to be. There is also a very flammable plastic coating on the top of the aluminum constraining layer. 

Test samples are about 29% coverage.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal Vs Damped Metal Frequency Response



Bare Metal Waterfall 


Damped Metal Waterfall


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Double post

Theunderfighter, Audio Technix is something I don't have yet, I'll pm you in a little, I have to run a couple of errands before places close.


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## Hanatsu

Great job! Very interesting to see those plots. According to the graphs the CLD's seems to remove ringing in the midbass area but increases it slightly in the lower frequencies. The immediate resonance is lowered in amplitude and the Fs seems to move down in frequency with a lower/wider Q. I assume all CLD's behave more or less in this fashion?

May I suggest you start another thread when the testing is complete? It's much easier to find the first post of the actual testing than searching through 10 pages


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## Beckerson1

Hanatsu said:


> Great job! Very interesting to see those plots. According to the graphs the CLD's seems to remove ringing in the midbass area but increases it slightly in the lower frequencies. The immediate resonance is lowered in amplitude and the Fs seems to move down in frequency with a lower/wider Q. I assume all CLD's behave more or less in this fashion?
> 
> May I suggest you start another thread when the testing is complete? It's much easier to find the first post of the actual testing than searching through 10 pages


It's lead to believe that's the exact function of CLD. Will be interesting the differences between the products. Even the difference between what the findings were now and the correct product IF its found the samples of KNU are incorrect. 


It would be really interesting to see if there is any difference in using just aluminum duct foil tape. Granted there is no butyl layer.


I've used the foil tape on my trunk lid to hide the nasty 25% coverage of CLD tile I have back there. To me it seemed to help but could be negligible.

But it wasn't the function I meant it to be. It was to hide only. Not dampen


----------



## Smudgeface

Just caught on to this now. What an excellent project, stubborn, kudos for all your hard work.

I wonder, have you considered using a hall effect transistor for measuring your panel vibrations? Rather than attaching several magnets and a large-ish accelerometer-and-cable assembly, you would simply attach a small magnet to the resonant surface and place the hall-effect transistor close to it. This approach has proven to be very effective:
Magnetic Levitation (Hall Effect) - YouTube

The fact that you are using steel as your resonant surface could be an issue with this idea, however, as the coupled magnetic field may introduce non-linearities or harmonics in the measurement. But, it's worth considering.

Accelerometers are very noisy. Replacing the caps to increase bandwidth will cause the undesired effect of introducing time-based noise into your measurements. Even with multi-sample smoothing, I'm not sure there will be enough resolution in your measurement data to confidently arrive at a conclusion.


----------



## rton20s

Awesome to see we (Chris) has gotten to the point where we can get some real data! And the initial evidence presented here is coinciding with what many of us, including Hanatsu in his observations of the test results, have posited all along. While the dampener may reduce the amplitude of the initial resonance to some degree, what it is doing just as much is changing the resonant frequency of the material you are attaching it t. Hence, the peak shift from ~93 Hz to ~80 Hz in the Knu test. 

I personally appreciate the waterfall graphs as it really helps tell a more complete story. We can see the reduction of amplitude in resonance over time when comparing the dampened sample from the non-dampened sample. We also see the resonant frequency shift become apparent in these graphs as well. The amplitude actually appears to have less decay at the extreme low end of the spectrum with the dampened material than when not dampened. 

Chris, please say that you're going to do a color coded waterfall overlay of every single sample taken!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hanatsu said:


> Great job! Very interesting to see those plots. According to the graphs the CLD's seems to remove ringing in the midbass area but increases it slightly in the lower frequencies. The immediate resonance is lowered in amplitude and the Fs seems to move down in frequency with a lower/wider Q. I assume all CLD's behave more or less in this fashion?
> 
> May I suggest you start another thread when the testing is complete? It's much easier to find the first post of the actual testing than searching through 10 pages


I will definitely be making a results thread once testing is done. I'll make everything look nice and easy to compare.

There is definitely a difference in the way certain CLD's behave. I wasn't sure there would be, but I just tested another, albeit an asphalt/butyl hybrid, and its results are very different.


Beckerson1, I can test that if you'd like. I can also test adding it to a current CLD aluminum layer. I actually bought a 16mil thick aluminum sheet, that I plan to epoxy to alphadamp after measuring alphadamp by itself, to see what that does.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Smudgeface said:


> Just caught on to this now. What an excellent project, stubborn, kudos for all your hard work.
> 
> I wonder, have you considered using a hall effect transistor for measuring your panel vibrations? Rather than attaching several magnets and a large-ish accelerometer-and-cable assembly, you would simply attach a small magnet to the resonant surface and place the hall-effect transistor close to it. This approach has proven to be very effective:
> Magnetic Levitation (Hall Effect) - YouTube
> 
> The fact that you are using steel as your resonant surface could be an issue with this idea, however, as the coupled magnetic field may introduce non-linearities or harmonics in the measurement. But, it's worth considering.
> 
> Accelerometers are very noisy. Replacing the caps to increase bandwidth will cause the undesired effect of introducing time-based noise into your measurements. Even with multi-sample smoothing, I'm not sure there will be enough resolution in your measurement data to confidently arrive at a conclusion.


I'll have a chat with my dad about that, he will be in town tomorrow. Looking at some info on my own, it seems to agree with the possible issues in using it with a steel surface, but I'll see what he can add.

Dustin, check out the newest results. GTMat 80mil, it behaves completely different than the Knu 80mil product did.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GTMat Ultra

ACTUAL TESTING

Total thickness - 80mil

Constraining layer thickness - 2mil

Approximately 0.44 lbs per square foot

Notes - I measured this product and peel n seal at the same time. Both had a constraining layer thickness of about 2mil. Both have a plastic layer in between the butyl/asphalt mix and the aluminum, with a total thickness of 5mil. The aluminum layer on GTMat IS aluminum. There has been some debate tonight, however, the aluminum layer polishes identical to peel n seal, weighs the same as peel n seal, and behaves the same. It does seem to be low grade, but it IS in fact, aluminum. Constraining layer thickness is off about 0.5mil from spec, but that's not that bad. If Knu's product was off 0.5mil, I don't think anyone would be complaining.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal Vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Resonance Control Overlay


GTMat 80mil Overlay


Resonance Control Damped Waterfall


GTMat 80mil Damped Waterfall




I video'd the entire measurement process, those will be up tomorrow. For reference, when measuring, REW shows a headroom number. Undamped metal headroom on the resonance control test showed around 5.3db. Undamped headroom on the GTMat test showed 5.2db. Damped resonance control headroom was around 16.8db, vs 9.0db for GTMat. That's a peak resonance reduction of around 11.5db for the resonance control, vs 3.8db for GTMat.


----------



## DeanE10

Glad to see this is underway Chris! Would you mind to add the summary like that to the end of each test?

IE: 


> Peak resonance reduction ~ X.Xdb
> Damped headroom ~ X.Xdb


Very much appreciated!!!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

When I get off work, ill get it done. The nice thing about REW, is I have an idea how something is testing before seeing the graphs, based on the headroom number its showing me.


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## rton20s

Glad to see more results filtering in. If you would like some assistance this week, I can probably be available on Thursday evening or Friday afternoon/evening. I think Saturday is out though, as that is my son's birthday. 

I'm definitely interested to see how the unique characteristics of how each product affects the metal panel. When looking at just the first two results, it does appear that both products are having similar effects. The Knu just seems to be the superior product of the two tested. I'm excited to see how this all plays out. And I wonder how many manufacturers are secretly, anxiously awaiting the results of their test.


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## frontman

Thank you sir for all your time and effort! This is great information that will benefit many companies and consumers! Once again - thanks!


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## frontman

Did you have any Second Skin Audio Damplifier or Damplifier Pro? If you go to their web page Vehicle Sound Deadening Materials for Noise Reduction, and Thermal Insulation. Call 800 679-8511. | Second Skin Audio, Made in the USA. you can order a free sample pack if you need it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I messaged them to see what size their samples were, to make sure it would work. I suppose I need to call them.


Dustin, thursday is shot, I have a 45 min interview for the supervisor position friday right after work, so most of thursday I'll be relaxing. Friday I'll be testing on and off all day though, so whatever time works for you after say, 2:30, just text me.


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## optimaprime

what are your thoughts on the gtmat? i got some of the onyx gtmat from them and curious if tested it yet?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I havent tested it yet, but it will probably be done tonight. Subjectively, it seems like a dynamat xtreme clone. Same gooey, extremely sticky butyl feel, same or maybe a tad stiffer aluminum layer. Odd backing paper choice with plastic instead of paper, but a much better product than their asphalt lines.

I have STP Atlantic's Bomb lined up to test when I get home.


----------



## optimaprime

i hope it works better then dymat. was hoping for good cheap product that works. the stp should be interesting.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will definitely be making a results thread once testing is done. I'll make everything look nice and easy to compare.
> 
> There is definitely a difference in the way certain CLD's behave. I wasn't sure there would be, but I just tested another, albeit an asphalt/butyl hybrid, and its results are very different.
> 
> 
> Beckerson1, I can test that if you'd like. I can also test adding it to a current CLD aluminum layer. I actually bought a 16mil thick aluminum sheet, that I plan to epoxy to alphadamp after measuring alphadamp by itself, to see what that does.


Ya I'm curious how much it would effect things. I mean its very thin (probably close to 1-2mm. 

Most areas I have double thickness.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Which cld did you use, dons? If so ill try it when I test his product.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Which cld did you use, dons? If so ill try it when I test his product.


Second Skin Damplifier


----------



## Alrojoca

Is it possible to also test how easy it is to remove it and document it? assuming that needs to be done on every test or a mistake is made while installing it. It would be nice to get an idea. I know dynamat and 2nd skin hold up very well and are also easier to remove if needed.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm not sure how one would objectively measure this, but I have been subjectively keeping track. Believe it or not, so far, Peel N Seal was the second biggest pain to remove so far, after SDS CLD Tiles. Both Resonance Control and GTMat removed easier and cleaner.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

STP-Atlantic Bomb

Total Thickness - 4.2mm (I will measure my sample tomorrow)

Constraining Layer Thickness - 3.9mil (measure tomorrow)

Approximately 1.49 lbs per square foot

Notes - This stuff is monstrous. Heavy, thick, and stiff. It is an asphalt based product, however it does not smell like the Peel N Seal, or the GTMat. It also has tested the best so far.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## rton20s

Nice, the StP Atlantic stuff is one of the brands I was really interested in. I'm curious to see how their other products compare.


----------



## Alrojoca

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm not sure how one would objectively measure this, but I have been subjectively keeping track. Believe it or not, so far, Peel N Seal was the second biggest pain to remove so far, after SDS CLD Tiles. Both Resonance Control and GTMat removed easier and cleaner.


Thanks, I was not expecting a measured test, maybe just take notes on how easy or hard some of them are to remove I appreciate the info you gave us so far


----------



## NJaNeer

I Appreciate you sharing this with us!


----------



## astrochex

This is a remarkable effort and a tremendous service.

I would be surprised if each manufacturer has conducted such a broad comparison. You can have all sorts of fun with that data once the testing is complete.

Thank-you.


----------



## fast94tracer

will you be testing stinger roadkill expert?
if you need a sample i could send you some.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys. Today's a dead day, need to prepare for the interview tomorrow. Tomorrow, there will be a lot of results.


----------



## DATCAT

Thanks for all the effort to compare these different brands. You truly are what this forum is all about!!!


----------



## optimaprime

yes thank you for your effort on this task as it is a huge one.


----------



## therapture

optimaprime said:


> what are your thoughts on the gtmat? i got some of the onyx gtmat from them and curious if tested it yet?


I too have used the Onyx, and it makes the regular GTMat feel sissy. Although my doors have a base layer of the regular GT stuff and I used a couple layers, it did work nicely.

The Onyx went into my roof and rear deck. 

Can't wait to see the results, thanks 2stub for doing this!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ya, the Onyx feels significantly better than the asphalt gtmat. I'll be trying to get that tested tonight.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Peel N Seal

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total thickness - 40mil

Constraining layer thickness - 2mil

0.25 lbs per square foot

Notes - Very very similar to GTMat, just thinner. Same plastic lining between the asphalt/butyl and aluminum. Smells the same. This is so far, the most ridiculously difficult product to removed. (that doesn't mean it will hold up to the heat or time, just that immediately after applying, its the most difficult) I tested this product three times, moving the mic each time. I'm sure some people will cry foul, so I will likely measure again with the whole thing recorded on video. 

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


Again, pay more attention to the waterfall plots. Peel n Seal does seem to damp vibrations, just not at the main resonant frequency, and only at higher frequencies.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Alphadamp

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total thickness - 60mil

Constraining layer thickness - 10mil

.55 lbs per square foot

Notes - Feels very stiff. I've been told they use a higher grade tempered aluminum, and just comparing the aluminum layers, it seems like it. Constraining layer measured between 10-11mil, most spots at 10mil. I tested this one more than once as well. 

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## rton20s

These two are very interesting, indeed. I look forward to the continued test results.


----------



## james2266

I was curious how the Alphadamp performs as that is what is in my doors. It seemed to do a good enough job but I still have a few issues I think. Looks like the STP Bomb is the best stuff so far. Curious what comes out on top. I will likely need to get some more of something so I'm curious. Thanks a pile for doing this too.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Whats interesting to me is the one that performs the best so far, was the easiest to remove, and was also an asphalt product. And the one that performs the worst, was the most difficult to remove, and also an asphalt product. I should get three more tests done today, SDS, Kolossus, and Stinger.


----------



## Beckerson1

Ya I'm actually quite surprised as well.


----------



## Lanson

I'm withholding my CLD order until this is all complete, there's just so much useful info here with a non-biased tester. I don't always give out rep points, but threads like this deserve ALL of them.

So good!


----------



## BFYTW

fourthmeal said:


> I'm withholding my CLD order until this is all complete, there's just so much useful info here with a non-biased tester. I don't always give out rep points, but threads like this deserve ALL of them.
> 
> So good!


Agreed.. subscribed....

I just put 36 sqft of the stinger roadkill expert in my 07 Ram. I don't know if its just because my dodge is quieter than my 1992 Hard body truck before deadner... or if the original dynamat asphalt stuff from back then was just better. But not as impressed with this CDL stuff. Would be interested to see results on the stinger.


----------



## quality_sound

Asphalt-based materials are, IMO, better at blocking noise. CLD, seems to be better deadeners. That's one of the reasons like StP Bomb so much. It's almost like a cross between the two.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

STP Bomb is a special case. I would expect it to block sound better than any other product, as it is denser per square foot than anything else. All else being equal, density is the main factor in a cld's ability to BLOCK noise. That said, my tests are not capable of showing any reliable form of NRC, I purposely aimed at trying to remove that as much as possible from the results. CLD's should not be used as a sound blocker, as being coupled to the chassis, it just won't work as well as a decoupled barrier. It doesn't have to be mass loaded vinyl, it could be anything thin and dense. In fact, if your willing to work with it (and add the weight to your car), you could build a far better decoupled barrier out of raw sheet lead and closed cell foam than anything available on the market.

BFYTW, did you put the same % of coverage in both vehicles, in the same places? There could be hundreds of reasons that it doesn't seem to work as well. For instance, look at the Peel N Seal results. Listening by ear, the Peel N Seal didn't seem as bad as the test results actually are. But, that can be explained by looking at the higher frequency results. Peel N Seal does work on those higher frequency resonances, where the ear is more sensitive. That said, I tested Roadkill Expert last night, and it performs better (to the ear and the mic) than any asphalt product I've tested aside from STP Bomb.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Stinger Roadkill Expert

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 80mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 5mil

0.80 lbs per square foot

Notes - This product was off of published specs a little bit in constraining layer, and significantly in density. Published density is 0.65 lbs per square foot, but I measured 0.80 lbs per square foot. The butyl is extremely gooey, almost like chewing gum (also a butyl product). Constraining layer was 1mil short at 5mil vs 6mil as advertised.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sounddeadenershowdown.com CLD Tiles

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 80mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 8mil

0.72 lbs per square foot

Notes - Product measures to spec. Gooey butyl, but not as gooey as dynamat or roadkill expert. 

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## toolparabols

Am i reading this right? SDS and Alpha damp come at such a high price yet the cheaper guys (stinger, knu) seem to perform very similar. Whats the point of spending the extra cash?


----------



## rton20s

toolparabols said:


> Am i reading this right? SDS and Alpha damp come at such a high price yet the cheaper guys (stinger, knu) seem to perform very similar. Whats the point of spending the extra cash?


That is part of the reason for this testing. To determine which products actually perform as they claim and to see what is actually worth what they charge compared to the rest of the market. I've noticed that some manufacturers have recently introduced SIGNIFICANT price reductions to be more competitive with where the market currently is. Who know if they'll be temporary or permanent.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

toolparabols said:


> Am i reading this right? SDS and Alpha damp come at such a high price yet the cheaper guys (stinger, knu) seem to perform very similar. Whats the point of spending the extra cash?


Definitely not reading this right. SDS performs significantly better than Knu and stinger.

Stinger has an 8db drop in amplitude on the main resonant frequency.

Alphadamp has about an 11db drop in amplitude on the main resonant frequency.

Knu Resonance Controld has about an 8db drop in amplitude on the main resonant freqency.

SDS has about a 14db drop in amplitude on the main resonant frequency.

Furthermore, pay very good attention to the waterfall plots. You want the damper to roll off vibration as fast as possible. SDS and STP Bomb do this the best so far. Both do much better than Knu or Stinger (or alphadamp).

Admittedly, its difficult to compare waterfall plots in the format the results are currently in. It will be much better put together when the results are all finished. Posting results now is more to give people an idea of whats going on. I didn't want to just hold on to them and keep them secret until I was finished.


----------



## NJaNeer

Great work so far, I would be curious to see what would happen if you put a couple more layers of the peel n seal since it's so thin.

Edit: Time to buy STP before the price goes up. Lmao


----------



## Martin

Hi there,

nice testing!

At the end of the test procedure, i would suggest to show the correlation between weight and effect to find out how much the consistency of the butyl/asphalt and the constraining layer thickness add to the result.

As far, it looks like "the heavier the better" to me...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

NJaNeer said:


> Great work so far, I would be curious to see what would happen if you put a couple more layers of the peel n seal since it's so thin.
> 
> Edit: Time to buy STP before the price goes up. Lmao


I will definitely be doing a multi-layer peel n seal test, since everyone claims "I can put 4 layers of peel n seal for the cost of one layer of expensive stuff".


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Martin said:


> Hi there,
> 
> nice testing!
> 
> At the end of the test procedure, i would suggest to show the correlation between weight and effect to find out how much the consistency of the butyl/asphalt and the constraining layer thickness add to the result.
> 
> As far, it looks like "the heavier the better" to me...


That's definitely not the case. While the leader right now is heavier than everything else, second place is lighter than two brands that perform worse, and third place is lighter than two brands that perform worse as well. 

Unfortunately, were not going to be able to just do a correlation of how much different thicknesses matter, as the butyl rubber (and asphalt for those brands with asphalt) all seem to have different formulations. They all handle, peel, adhere, and come off different from each other, so you can't ignore that in comparing them.


----------



## NJaNeer

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will definitely be doing a multi-layer peel n seal test, since everyone claims "I can put 4 layers of peel n seal for the cost of one layer of expensive stuff".


You sir, are the best! I wouldn't go past 3 or 4 layers as the price wouldn't be enough difference for the extra work. 

It's also nice to see how much difference it makes by adding more layers.

When can we expect your own line of products?


----------



## Hanatsu

Toostubborn2fail: Just a random tip. Check this site out if you need to make some easy comparison plots/graphs over some of the tests. I use it once in a while.

ChartGo - Online Graphing Fast, Easy and Free


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks, that will come in handy when I put everything together. Dynamat Xtreme and KnuKonceptz Kolussus on the plate for tonight.


----------



## Lanson

Did you get some Raam BXTII on your list yet?

Had to edit that, apparently alphadamp comes up auto-tragically when you use the whole name of the company that makes BXTII

Whoever created that little code re-write has a small penis and very little security in a product.


----------



## FaintReality

fourthmeal said:


> Did you get some Raam BXTII on your list yet?
> 
> Had to edit that, apparently alphadamp comes up auto-tragically when you use the whole name of the company that makes BXTII
> 
> Whoever created that little code re-write has a small penis and very little security in a product.


I'm hoping to see some test results on the BXTII as well.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

FaintReality said:


> I'm hoping to see some test results on the BXTII as well.


I was hoping to as well, but so far the leads I've had on product donations have come up short. In the future, if things pick up for me I'll get some on my own.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dynamat Xtreme

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total thickness - 67mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.47 lbs per square foot

Notes - Very gooey butyl. Removes fairly easy, but leaves behind pieces of butyl.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

KnuKoncepts Kolossus

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 100mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.96 lbs per square foot

Notes - Constraining layer doesn't measure to spec. Everything else is relatively close. Easy to remove, and clean to remove.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

28.75% vs 95% coverage using KnuKonceptz Kolossus

Overlay of Bare Metal vs 28.75% Coverage Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Bare Metal vs 95% Coverage Damped Metal Frequency Response


28.75% Damped Metal Waterfall


95% Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## quality_sound

And people say there's diminishing returns past 25%. That's a very significant drop under 100Hz.


----------



## james2266

quality_sound said:


> And people say there's diminishing returns past 25%. That's a very significant drop under 100Hz.


Exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if the difference will be as great for the best of this lot tested however. If I recall, Don from SDS, stated that the CLD has to be top notch to be able to use 25% coverage. Should be interesting to see results like that on all of the tested samples. Would it be as great with say STP Bomb?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ill expand on this when I get home. Theres a lot of factors that can play in here.


----------



## astrochex

mods - why isn't this a sticky?


----------



## rton20s

astrochex said:


> mods - why isn't this a sticky?


Not enough butyl? 

Seriously... seems very few threads get "stickied" on DIYMA. And I would say, depending on how a certain deadener fairs in the final results would carry even more weight as to whether or not the thread is sticky worthy.


----------



## GLN305

quality_sound said:


> And people say there's diminishing returns past 25%. That's a very significant drop under 100Hz.


I'll stick to my guns when I say that 100% coverage is still a good idea. IMO, making the sheet metal "thicker" using a deadener has significant impact on outside noise and panel stiffness. I am using about 50% coverage with just Stinger Pro in my truck and have not noticed the tremendous difference as when I have done 100% coverage in the same model truck in the past.


----------



## schmiddr2

Because this is not the final results thread. It will be put in the "list of useful threads" which is stuck.


----------



## Smudgeface

Interesting results in the 28.75% vs 95% coverage test. Glad to see the results follow instinct with regard to low frequency noise and vibrations. Anyone willing to hypothesize why more coverage seemed to result in poorer performance in the 100-200hz range?


----------



## astrochex

schmiddr2 said:


> Because this is not the final results thread. It will be put in the "list of useful threads" which is stuck.


okey, dokey. thanks.


----------



## bsa77

Stumbled over this while researching sound deadening in general. 
I'm not going to mention my so-called car stereo in here...:embarassed:
Had to sign up to express my appreciation and admiration for this project. Massive! :thumbsup:

Exited to see how this pans out, and very curious about the 25% vs 100%.
Noticed that although the initial graph (on KnuKonceptz Kolossus) is quite different, drop off and the end of the waterfalls (after300ms) seems pretty equal(?) I guess one would prefer that the start, fall off and the "end" to be as low as possible, but is one part more important than the other?
(and pardon if this is a stupid question, not really very familiar with any of this)

And I'm only asking as you seem to have had some expenses in this project, Is there any way one could slip you a nickel or a dime, paypal or something, not fair that you are using time and your own money and we only harvesting the goods here


----------



## rton20s

My understanding is that the key to the waterfall graphs is that you want to see the steepest drop-off or "decay" as possible. Many of these waterfall graphs might end up looking quite similar when you only look at the final measurement (300 ms). What is key is what is happening between 0 ms and 300 ms. The quicker the waterfall drops, the better. 

I think Chris is doing a great job in presenting this information as he gets it. And the provision of both the frequency response graph and the waterfall graph really help to tell a more complete story. I'm sure when he posts the "results thread" he'll provide a bit of a primer on how to both read and compare the graphs. I'm not sure if he'll post a "ranking" or not based on his observations of the results. That might not be a can of worms he is willing to open. ;-)


----------



## captainobvious

Smudgeface said:


> Interesting results in the 28.75% vs 95% coverage test. Glad to see the results follow instinct with regard to low frequency noise and vibrations. Anyone willing to hypothesize why more coverage seemed to result in poorer performance in the 100-200hz range?


I don't see much of a change in the speed of the decay in the waterfall plots between the 25% and 95%. I imagine the added material is increasing mass of the panel, therefore lowering it's FS...?


----------



## rton20s

Fs shift as well as an overall dB reduction seem to be primary results of the added material. Something to keep in mind on the waterfall plots is, depending on mic sensitivity, I would hazard a guess that anything under ~30 dB is negligible. I know in high performance building design, anything below 35 dB in a "silent" empty room with A/C running is considered pretty good. I would also suspect that since Chris lives in the same town as myself where temps have been in the high 90s to low 100s, he has had his A/C on during the tests.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, definitely rockin the ac. Plus its needed to keep temps stable across the tests. I have a lot to write about the coverage tests, I have an hour left of work before ill be at a real computer.


Oh, and I will be opening that can of worms, with the catch that different conditions may warrent different results.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Oh, and I will be opening that can of worms, with the catch that different conditions may warrent different results.


And that is they key for any of us to tell any and all nay-sayers to "shut up." This being a specific test under specific conditions... YMMV.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The decay plot is definitely better with the 95% coverage on the main resonant frequency. It decays faster, and almost completely flattens out. It is also a significant reduction in the immediate response. However, there needs to be more testing before I can say this is the normal results. Unfortunately, Kolossus is the only damper I have enough of to perform this test right now. I'd bet on different results with different products.


Its also been suggested that adding too much product, can lower the resonant frequency and cause other problems, like sympathetic resonance from the exhaust. I believe this is the main reason that 25% has been promoted, because if you go past that, and run into a problem, you have to remove product to fix the problem. So I'd advise a couple of things. If you want to do 100% coverage, look for the damper that decays the fastest. Also look for one that doesn't seem to lower the resonant frequency.


----------



## spyders03

Looks like my time and effort with my peel n seal wasn't completely for not as others have told me. Definitely not the best, but also not the worst, and I'd say great for the price. As for you notes on the adhesive, I would definitely agree, much harder to take off than FatMat, although it has held up in the Arizona summer and Tennessee summer and winter, so no complaints there. 

Although I am in the market for some more, and this thread will help immensely. Again, you are an absolute beast for getting all the testing done, with posting results, and handling a personal life at the same time, really great job man, much appreciated!


----------



## Rudeboy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The decay plot is definitely better with the 95% coverage on the main resonant frequency. It decays faster, and almost completely flattens out. It is also a significant reduction in the immediate response. However, there needs to be more testing before I can say this is the normal results. Unfortunately, Kolossus is the only damper I have enough of to perform this test right now. I'd bet on different results with different products.
> 
> 
> Its also been suggested that adding too much product, can lower the resonant frequency and cause other problems, like sympathetic resonance from the exhaust. I believe this is the main reason that 25% has been promoted, because if you go past that, and run into a problem, you have to remove product to fix the problem. So I'd advise a couple of things. If you want to do 100% coverage, look for the damper that decays the fastest. Also look for one that doesn't seem to lower the resonant frequency.


It's much less a question of added material lowering the resonant frequency through increased mass. It's much more that by connecting adjacent panels you risk creating a new structure with its own problematic resonant frequency. The least expensive vehicle will have had attention paid to panel resonance. It won't necessarily be great but it also won't be catastrophic either. We have the ability to make it catastrophic.

I recommend targeting 25% because it is most likely to get the job done and I don't believe additional material is audible in a properly treated moving car. Probably not even in a properly treated parked car.

You absolutely can not draw conclusions about increased coverage on a fully terminated panel from testing a fully open panel. *The edges of the terminated panel do not move!*. Every statement in this thread citing these test results as supportive of any coverage percentage in a vehicle are baseless. It doesn't mean a case can't be made. It just isn't being made here. Some panels may ideally require closer to 50% but target 25% and you will get a good result.

Then you can move on to the 90% of the work you still have to do to have a quiet and acoustically neutral vehicle.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I meant to email you earlier, but hadn't gotten to it.


I need to point out that these tests are all being done on a fully terminated panel. There are pictures earlier in the thread. The metal piece is 12"x12". The exposed part is 10"x10". It is clamped between two 3/4" sheets of baltic birch with 8 bolts, all going through the metal sheet. I would definitely not have said what I said had the tests been on an open panel.

I'm curious what you mean by creating new structures. Are you talking about true 100% coverage? As in covering two panels that are terminated together with a single piece of CLD?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Here is the test rig. There are speakers as the exciters, for consistency. REW creates the sweeps, sent from the laptop to the amp. The back of the speakers are covered completely, to avoid sound from the rear from interfering as much with the measurements. Microphone is the Omnimic usb mic. Mount for the mic is epoxied in place, and the wood is marked to line up with the bolts.


----------



## Rudeboy

Sorry - definitely missed that. I saw your reference to the freely suspended panel and assumed that was what you were doing since you extrapolated so much from it.

Having seen what you're really doing I have to question whether it's possible to learn anything from the results. I did something very similar when I was testing these products but never published the results since I knew they were unreliable -despite having controlled many more variables than you have. 

There's a reason there are standards for this type of thing. Even then, Oberst bar testing would give you results better suited to specific applications, not general use. 

It's irresponsible to ask people to alter their behavior based on something as imprecise as what you are doing. I think this is a case of pretty pictures concealing a very poor methodology.

Sorry to see this.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I only mentioned a freely suspended panels with the catch that it was theoretical, based on tests by others, and that it would have to be tested with a panel that was terminated on the ends. I was very clear about that.

I would be very curious as to what your test methods were, and what variables you controlled better than I am. As you suggested, there are standards, but what are they? You already mentioned that Oberst Beam testing isn't really applicable for general use. What other testing standards are there? I found nothing. Actually, a few pages back, I was linked to a paper by an aircraft company that used a method similar to mine. Of course, with a bigger budget, there were tests at different temps, they used a pneumatic hammer, and they had the edges suspended freely.


I would seriously counter that its far more irresponsible to ask people to change their behavior based on observations of measurements that have never been shown to anyone. Looking at the results in REW, my measurements of the metal have been far more consistent than most raw speaker measurements, with the farthest deviation being a 5hz shift in frequency, and a 2db shift in resonant frequency amplitude.

As it stands now, we have nothing concrete to show for what anyone claims is the best method or product. I've mentioned multiple times in this thread, that this testing is not perfect, and what its shortcomings are. It was still the general opinion that the results gleamed from this testing was better than nothing.


----------



## DeanE10

Continue on Chris... The majority of us understand and appreciate what your doing! We know it's not perfect, but it provides very useful information


----------



## trumpet

DeanE10 said:


> Continue on Chris... The majority of us understand and appreciate what your doing! We know it's not perfect, but it provides very useful information


If the test is flawed the data is only relevant to this specific test under the conditions present. I'm very concerned about the validity of the results. A lot of people are watching.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Everyone knew going in that testing was very conditional (as are all tests of any kind). You can't point me to any test that is absolute for all conditions.

Right now, the general public here has nothing but what companies and certain people have told us. There have been no results published, no test methods explained, and no attempt to prove what they are claiming is actual truth. 

So far Don is the only person to suggest that the information gained is not useful in any way. For Don to come in and claim that the information is not useful, when he has admittedly not read the entire thread, is irresponsible. I've had many people look over everything. I've had someone with a masters in physics sit in on testing with me. His response to this is that people will always be critical, especially when they are watching from the outside in. He feels the information is more useful than anything else out there on these products.

Of course there are room for improvements. I can think of many things, that the next time I do this, will be better. Those things have to wait for me to have a better budget for this, the people that have donated products are aware that this is an initial testing. I will finish up this testing as is, put a lot of work into extrapolating the usefulness of the results, and wrap it all up in neat presentation.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just so everyone is clear, here is the test procedure. I have full video, documenting the entire process, but as it takes 3 hours to upload 12 minutes of video for me, I will be saving it for the final results.

1 - Place metal plate between clamping frame and box. Insert bolts, and finger tighten until snug, north to south, west to east, north west to south east, north east to south west. Repeat pattern torquing bolts to 60 in-lbs. Measure temperature at multiple locations with infrared thermometer, temps must be between 77-77.5 degrees.

2 - Position mic, lining up the tip with the center of the x lightly scribed into the test panel. Check distance from panel with 0.016" feeler gauge from the face of the bolts. 

3 - Run 8 measurement sweeps with REW. If the headroom isn't between 4.8-5.3db, check everything and re-run them. Save file, and save snapshots of frequency response and waterfall.

4 - Remove backing paper from sample to be tested. Samples are all cut out with the same die, and center is removed with a die to prevent the thickness/density from affecting readings. Weigh sample, metal side down with backing removed, with a sharper image food scale, in grams. Apply sample, and use rounded edge on putty knife to make sure entire piece is adhered. This is admittedly one of the weak points. Each sample takes about a minute, taking extreme care to use as close to the same amount of force per sample as possible. I actually practiced this on a scale, a few times a day, for a week. After sample is in place, measure temperature at multiple locations. All locations must be between 77-77.5 degrees.

5 - Reposition mic as before. This takes a few minutes, since each sample will have a different headroom, I have to check multiple times. I usually walk away and check again before repeating the measurement process with another 8 sweeps. Save file, save snapshots of overlayed frequency response, damped frequency response, and damped waterfall.

6 - Remove panel. Place on flat surface and pry sample up with putty knife. Remove entire sample, then clean with googone (for butyl) then acetone, or just acetone for asphalt. Clean panel again inside with alcohol. No abrasives are used on the panel.

7 - Start at step 1 again.



Every sample gets its own bare metal measurement. The metal is never unbolted between metal and damped measurements.


I will begin testing the remaining samples on weds. I took my mom in for an MRI today, and my sister in law will be over tomorrow. 

I'm not going to argue over the testing procedure. I am aware of the issues, and very specifically asked in this thread if people wanted me to continue. The resounding answer was yes. If you have criticism, by all means speak up. But bring a solution to the table. Criticism without a solution is a waste of your time and mine.


----------



## Darth SQ

F'ing amazing how they come out of the woodwork. :mean:
Maybe it's because they have a dog in the hunt.
Hang in there Chris.
No one else is willing to do all this work for the DIYMA community.
A big thumbs up!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## GLN305

I think at this point changing the test procedure would be counter-productive since the data we are seeing makes sense versus what most people were expecting. The process has been vetted by you and professionals on here and in person where the testing is taking place. We all appreciate what you are doing and are looking forward to the end of the test and results. 

If someone has an issue with the testing, bringing it up in this thread is simply post dumping. Pm's would be more appropriate and would keep the thread de-cluttered. I hate seeing things like this go so far and then mud slinging starts and things go down hill. This is a DIY site, let's keep it DIY, keep the info flowing and share knowledge...otherwise we are undermining the entire purpose of this site.




TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Just so everyone is clear, here is the test procedure. I have full video, documenting the entire process, but as it takes 3 hours to upload 12 minutes of video for me, I will be saving it for the final results.
> 
> 1 - Place metal plate between clamping frame and box. Insert bolts, and finger tighten until snug, north to south, west to east, north west to south east, north east to south west. Repeat pattern torquing bolts to 60 in-lbs. Measure temperature at multiple locations with infrared thermometer, temps must be between 77-77.5 degrees.
> 
> 2 - Position mic, lining up the tip with the center of the x lightly scribed into the test panel. Check distance from panel with 0.016" feeler gauge from the face of the bolts.
> 
> 3 - Run 8 measurement sweeps with REW. If the headroom isn't between 4.8-5.3db, check everything and re-run them. Save file, and save snapshots of frequency response and waterfall.
> 
> 4 - Remove backing paper from sample to be tested. Samples are all cut out with the same die, and center is removed with a die to prevent the thickness/density from affecting readings. Weigh sample, metal side down with backing removed, with a sharper image food scale, in grams. Apply sample, and use rounded edge on putty knife to make sure entire piece is adhered. This is admittedly one of the weak points. Each sample takes about a minute, taking extreme care to use as close to the same amount of force per sample as possible. I actually practiced this on a scale, a few times a day, for a week. After sample is in place, measure temperature at multiple locations. All locations must be between 77-77.5 degrees.
> 
> 5 - Reposition mic as before. This takes a few minutes, since each sample will have a different headroom, I have to check multiple times. I usually walk away and check again before repeating the measurement process with another 8 sweeps. Save file, save snapshots of overlayed frequency response, damped frequency response, and damped waterfall.
> 
> 6 - Remove panel. Place on flat surface and pry sample up with putty knife. Remove entire sample, then clean with googone (for butyl) then acetone, or just acetone for asphalt. Clean panel again inside with alcohol. No abrasives are used on the panel.
> 
> 7 - Start at step 1 again.
> 
> 
> 
> Every sample gets its own bare metal measurement. The metal is never unbolted between metal and damped measurements.
> 
> 
> I will begin testing the remaining samples on weds. I took my mom in for an MRI today, and my sister in law will be over tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not going to argue over the testing procedure. I am aware of the issues, and very specifically asked in this thread if people wanted me to continue. The resounding answer was yes. If you have criticism, by all means speak up. But bring a solution to the table. Criticism without a solution is a waste of your time and mine.


----------



## schmiddr2

I for one appreciate the input of an industry long timer. I don't appreciate the manner of approach, but if we could get to solutions that would be great.

I feel that the accelerometer would be the more proper test for a panel and the mic would be better for the car door. I am likely wrong as I'm not an engineer or physics major, but if you need help buying an accelerometer I will make a donation thread to get this back on track.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^I'll pm you in the morning. Its WAY past my bedtime.


I wont be changing anything about the current testing method or procedure. After everything with this series of tests is wrapped up, and I post detailed results of everything I've done, I will begin to look at what can be improved upon in future tests. At the time I do those future tests, we can then compare the (more than likely improved) test's results vs the current tests results, and see if they are close, or way off.

I was trying to keep Don and I's conversations private, we've actually been discussing things for a few days, and he had offered to send additional product. It seems as though he hadn't paid attention to the thread at all though. Just for the record, I don't think Don is on an attack because his product is on the line (although its doing quite good), and I don't hold anything against him. I just think he handled this the wrong way. To me, it just seems that he is an idealist about this, and I can understand that. It took a lot for me to accept the compromises that had to be made to get this going. But as Bing once told me, be careful of being a perfectionist. You end up with a lot of things unfinished, because it will never be good enough. Oddly enough, the engineer that sat in on testing with me has told me the same thing for years, since I was a kid.


----------



## spyders03

As I've said, you are doing a great job. Is it perfect, probably not, nothing is. But this is by far the most comprehensive and accurate test to date that I know of, and find the results very informative.

Swyped while swerving


----------



## GLN305

One thing I have noticed is that most people want to funnel all CLD testing into one category...resonance control. I use CLD for that as well as making the sheet metal thicker in the area that it is applied. IMO, the results of this testing apply to that as well. I've had people argue with me that CLD will not block noise. I usually take a piece and tell them to hold it against their ear and they change their opinion, but scientific it is not.

My point in saying this is, maybe Don is looking at it from his testing/marketing angle and sees these tests as worthless from that direction. Can't be sure until he clarifies, but that might be the case.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I wont be changing anything about the current testing method or procedure. After everything with this series of tests is wrapped up, and I post detailed results of everything I've done, I will begin to look at what can be improved upon in future tests. At the time I do those future tests, we can then compare the (more than likely improved) test's results vs the current tests results, and see if they are close, or way off.
> 
> I was trying to keep Don and I's conversations private, we've actually been discussing things for a few days, and he had offered to send additional product. It seems as though he hadn't paid attention to the thread at all though. Just for the record, I don't think Don is on an attack because his product is on the line (although its doing quite good), and I don't hold anything against him. I just think he handled this the wrong way. To me, it just seems that he is an idealist about this, and I can understand that. It took a lot for me to accept the compromises that had to be made to get this going. But as Bing once told me, be careful of being a perfectionist. You end up with a lot of things unfinished, because it will never be good enough. Oddly enough, the engineer that sat in on testing with me has told me the same thing for years, since I was a kid.


----------



## bsa77

I tried, but I can't not comment on this:



Rudeboy said:


> ...
> It's irresponsible to ask people to alter their behavior based on something as imprecise as what you are doing. I think this is a case of pretty pictures concealing a very poor methodology.
> 
> Sorry to see this.


Rather strange to be talking about irresponsibility while at the same time criticizing a project, sowing seeds of doubts regarding its reliability, without explaining why you think so.
There are many words I could use to describe such behavior...none considered very flattering...


"If the test is flawed the data is only relevant to this specific test under the conditions present. I'm very concerned about the validity of the results. A lot of people are watching."

So he says jump you ask how high?
Are you not at all interested in hearing "why" before you make up your mind about this?

Impressive mind-controlling skills there Darth Don...


(how does one do two qoutes in here btw?)


----------



## quality_sound

Click the plus on all but the last post you want to quote. Then click quote on the last.


----------



## astrochex

Chris is providing data from a consistently methodology.

Its up to the individual to interpret/use these results as he/she see's fit.

It is a tremendous service he is providing.


----------



## Smudgeface

Chris, I know you do not intend on changing your methodology now that you have begun testing (and rightfully so, as it would make results difficult to compare), however I wonder if you had a chance to speak with your dad about the idea of using a hall-effect transistor instead of a microphone. I still feel it would be more appropriate, as it more directly measures the panel movement using magnetics, rather than sound pressure waves (also avoiding ambient noise, etc).

Also, in the pictures you posted of your test setup, I noticed that the microphone was firmly mounted to the same board the speaker box was mounted too. I believe you mentioned that you even epoxied the microhone mount to it. I have read this entire thread, and I remember earlier someone suggested that you attempt to decouple the microphone from this speaker. Have you put any consideration into this?

cheers, and keep up the good work!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Short and quick answer while im on my phone, ill expand later.

I havent had the chance to talk with him yet, he was here last week, but I was very busy getting ready for my interview. He'll be back in town next week, and ill discuss it with him. I've actually been working on design for the next test procedure, and although thats a good while a way, ill be discussing that with him as well.

As for the mic, the pictures are hiding a gap between the mic board, and test box. There is about a half inch gap between the mic board, and the test box. I did test with some closed cell foam underneath, but the results actually varied more with it in place than without it, so I left it out.


----------



## DJNight2k

Did I miss the other STP products? How did they do compared to the Bomb? I saw one photo where they showed where they apply the different products. Wondering if there is one that "does it all" aside from a CCF or MLV or similar top layer like Ensolite etc. 

Curious if anyone has any experience with this "value" product I found on ebay. 1 New Bulk Roll Mat 100 sqft Butyl Rubber Use as Auto Sound Deadener Material | eBay
Thinner aluminum backing (2mil) but has a fiber built into or onto it for strength and it is cheap enough that I could double it up alot for the same price as the name brand stuff. It is a butyl product which is what caught my eye. Need to do my car but don't have the budget for the top shelf stuff so I am very interested in how some of the "cheaper" products are doing. Def. impressed with the STP Bomb.


----------



## schmiddr2

DJNight2k said:


> 1 New Bulk Roll Mat 100 sqft Butyl Rubber Use as Auto Sound Deadener Material | eBay





> The aluminum layer is reinforced with white fibers in a crossing pattern.


:laugh:

And is it even possible to just take a photo like this or are they trying to hide something.


----------



## DJNight2k

I think a camera with a very narrow aperture can blur out the background like that on a closeup like that.. but I see what you are saying. They do have a clear pic of it next to another type of product.. no explanation what they are showing though. Has a grayish looking core. This stuff is originally an HVAC product. I know more or less you get what you pay for just kind of wondering since it is a butyl product if it would perform any better and be less smelly and gooey than your basic peel and seal asphalt stuff. I won't keep debating about it here so I jack the thread, just curious if anyone had used it and any thoughts.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I haven't done the other STP products yet, that will be done tomorrow. I have Silver and Gold to test tomorrow, and some time after that, Vizomat, which is the oem equivalent. 

Not sure on the product your asking about. There is a definite difference in butyls throughout the products. Before testing, I would have said get the product with the thickest constraining layer, but now, not so much.


----------



## DJNight2k

If I can get a sample of that ebay product I mentioned, would you mind testing it and seeing how it compares to the others? How much do you need to do an accurate assessment?


----------



## DeanE10

DJNight2k said:


> If I can get a sample of that ebay product I mentioned, would you mind testing it and seeing how it compares to the others? How much do you need to do an accurate assessment?


I have some of this actually DJ... I can send it over to you Chris if you have time to test it?


----------



## DJNight2k

DeanE10 said:


> I have some of this actually DJ... I can send it over to you Chris if you have time to test it?


How did it work if I may ask?


----------



## DeanE10

Never used it... Was going to use it on some fab items like A Pillars and such but never got around to it... Just sitting in the garage so I really cant offer a fair review man...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If you guys want it tested, just let me know. I have 7 products left, some experiments, and 2 more products coming (maybe 4, im going to call second skin today).


----------



## DeanE10

I have 2 more products I would like for you to test actually... One of them being DJ's Ebay stuff and one more... Can you PM me your address again?

Is 12" x 12" enough? Or will more be needed?


----------



## Hanatsu

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If you guys want it tested, just let me know. I have 7 products left, some experiments, and 2 more products coming (maybe 4, im going to call second skin today).


We have a pretty popular CLD in Europe called "Silent Coat". You guys have access to that brand in the US?


----------



## FaintReality

DeanE10 said:


> I have some of this actually DJ... I can send it over to you Chris if you have time to test it?


At $1/sq ft, I would love to see this stuff tested if possible.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hanatsu, ill look when I get home from work, I swear ive heard of it before.

Dean, 12x12 is plenty, ill pm you my address when I get home as well.


----------



## Second Skin

Looking good, Don!

We're running some similar tests through an independent lab on Second Skin as well as a few other company's products, and the cool thing is it looks like we're doing completely different companies so we'll have a collection of quite a bit of technical data for everyone to see once this is all done!

Ken


----------



## rton20s

Looks like Silent Coat is available here in the U.S. Silent Coat US Silent Coat US I Sound and Vibration Dampening Products

Also, Chris, I can't recall if you have any Fatmat or not? I have a friend here in town who might have enough leftover from a hot rod build to "spare a square." 

SecondSkin... I look forward to any published test results you might be willing to share. Even if you can't "name names," it would be nice if you could at least give a written description of the other products tested. (Similar to what Chris has been doing in describing the makeup and thickness of the restraining and adhesive layer.)


----------



## Hanatsu

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hanatsu, ill look when I get home from work, I swear ive heard of it before.
> 
> Dean, 12x12 is plenty, ill pm you my address when I get home as well.


I might be able to send you some, how much did you need again?


----------



## Hanatsu

Found a US site, seems like it's available then. Everyone at competitions here in Sweden seems to bash this dampener because it's pretty cheap or something. Would be interesting to see how it compares to Dynamat and STP 

Silent Coat US Silent Coat US I Sound and Vibration Dampening Products


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For the minimum testing (vibration, short term heat failure, long term heat) I'd need a 6"x8" piece. 

Dustin, nope, no Fatmat yet. As of now, what I have left in my possession is GTMat 50mil, 110mil, and onyx, STP gold, silver, and vizomat, and Lightning Audio deadskin.

I have Memphis Mojo Mat on the way, and I believe some Audio Technix as well. 


Ken, I'm going to call you in a few minutes, I've been meaning to do it, its just been crazy busy this week.


----------



## Second Skin

rton20s said:


> Looks like Silent Coat is available here in the U.S. Silent Coat US Silent Coat US I Sound and Vibration Dampening Products
> 
> SecondSkin... I look forward to any published test results you might be willing to share. Even if you can't "name names," it would be nice if you could at least give a written description of the other products tested. (Similar to what Chris has been doing in describing the makeup and thickness of the restraining and adhesive layer.)


Of course! We'll try to format it the same way or similar to Chris' posts to keep things simple, and we should have the results in a week or two.


----------



## Thumper26

I can provide fatmat and rattletrap if needed. 

Also if you're up to it, can you compare aluminum flashing adhered with rtv sealant? I can provide samples for that as well.


----------



## Smudgeface

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Short and quick answer while im on my phone, ill expand later.
> 
> I havent had the chance to talk with him yet, he was here last week, but I was very busy getting ready for my interview. He'll be back in town next week, and ill discuss it with him. I've actually been working on design for the next test procedure, and although thats a good while a way, ill be discussing that with him as well.
> 
> As for the mic, the pictures are hiding a gap between the mic board, and test box. There is about a half inch gap between the mic board, and the test box. I did test with some closed cell foam underneath, but the results actually varied more with it in place than without it, so I left it out.


When you say the results varied _more_ with the closed cell foam, do you mean you put a piece of foam under the mic board? Because if this was your approach, it would not surprise me that you would see those results. The "mic board" would provide a large resonant surface to pick up sound pressure waves, a having a piece of foam under would only allow that board to resonate more freely. What you need to do is decouple the mic tripod from the mic board. This is generally accomplished by suspending the mic in something called a "Shock mount", and using as small a surface area as possible when attaching the mic stand to the base/board (like the spikes used on the bottom of tower speakers).

Of course, the other option is to attach everything to a critically damped rigid body...like a large slab of cement or granite


----------



## Nothingface5384

Second Skin said:


> Of course! We'll try to format it the same way or similar to Chris' posts to keep things simple, and we should have the results in a week or two.


something I'm a little confused about while I browsed the net.

is Alpha damp also your product?, a sister company? or whats up?
Couple of posts I've found seem like it was your product or you at least offered it, but on this site theirs 2 separate sections..

Back on topic, I'm interested in results also but I have a good idea only about 3 or so brands are worth the purchase


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thumper26 said:


> I can provide fatmat and rattletrap if needed.
> 
> Also if you're up to it, can you compare aluminum flashing adhered with rtv sealant? I can provide samples for that as well.


I'll see if Dustin (a local) can get the fatmat, if not, I'll let you know. Rattletrap and the homemade solution would be very interesting to test. I'll pm you after I get find out from Dustin about the fatmat.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Smudgeface said:


> When you say the results varied _more_ with the closed cell foam, do you mean you put a piece of foam under the mic board? Because if this was your approach, it would not surprise me that you would see those results. The "mic board" would provide a large resonant surface to pick up sound pressure waves, a having a piece of foam under would only allow that board to resonate more freely. What you need to do is decouple the mic tripod from the mic board. This is generally accomplished by suspending the mic in something called a "Shock mount", and using as small a surface area as possible when attaching the mic stand to the base/board (like the spikes used on the bottom of tower speakers).
> 
> Of course, the other option is to attach everything to a critically damped rigid body...like a large slab of cement or granite


Yep, that's what I tried first, and after to trial and error, figured out that was what going on. By worse, I mean there was a consistent small bump in frequency response that wasn't there without the foam. I then tried foam under the box itself, and it had no measurable effect vs no foam.

I've been working on designing a new test rig for future tests (after this is wrapped up and I take a break) and that was one of the issues I think I have solved, along with a much better clamping surface for the test panel.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just so everyone knows, I talked to Ken from Second Skin today. He said he would be sending out a sample for these tests, in addition to their own independent test efforts. 

I also received a rather large shipment of SDS CLD Tiles. Don had told me over the weekend that he would like to send me some samples for this testing. I am going to email him before I open them to make sure he's still ok with me testing it, if not, I am going to send it back. I don't feel right testing it with him being the donor, if he is not ok with the tests.

I was advised it would be good to remind everyone of the reasons behind this testing, as most people now are understandably skipping the first pages where it was contained.

My #1 purpose with this testing, is to get an idea of how each of these products perform, in a relatively controlled environment. I saw a lack of testing of any kind for these products, aside from a few ASTM-756 tests, which as Don and I agree, is not very indicative of how these products perform in our use. The testing I am doing, is sort of a preliminary testing. With the budget at hand, I have done everything I can to control the circumstances and give each product a fair chance. After I get through the samples I have, I will likely spend a month looking over everything, and putting together a very in depth report, including disclaimers that all testing of any form is limited in scope, and with every circumstance being different, that this is more of a guide to products that perform well. At that point I will take a break, as I've been working on this for several months when you include research, and I will likely be having surgery this fall. At some point early next year, I will begin preparing for a more in depth test, with the ability to test at multiple temps, with either an accelerometer, or non-contacting vibration sensor.

The secondary purpose is to test certain claims that have been made over the years. While I agree that there is diminishing returns from double layering, more than 50% coverage, etc, I want to know what those diminishing returns are. There are many more reasons to use these products than just quieting road noise, as Therapture showed with his waterfall plots from before and after roof deadening. I will be doing similar, with some in car tests at the time when I am able to work on deadening my wife's car. I at no point have, or will claim that these results are absolute for every circumstance, but that they do make it easier for people to make their own decisions about how to best treat the problems they have.


----------



## Darth SQ

Nothingface5384 said:


> something I'm a little confused about while I browsed the net.
> 
> is Alpha damp also your product?, a sister company? or whats up?
> Couple of posts I've found seem like it was your product or you at least offered it, but on this site theirs 2 separate sections..
> 
> Back on topic, I'm interested in results also but I have a good idea only about 3 or so brands are worth the purchase


Second Skin used to sell Alpha Damp before they obtained their own product to market.
Now Alpha Damp is sold exclusively by the owner of this forum.

Which reminds me Ken, I need to buy more LLP soon.
I will call you when the time comes. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## DJNight2k

Thanks for doing this.. even if it is not 100% "scientifically perfect" testing, it still gives a non biased, and consistent way to compare the products. I am thinking even if the measurement isn't the most perfect way to do it, and the "numbers" aren't spot on as far as frequencies etc, you should still be able to pick out better performing items based on comparing your results. Thanks again!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks DJ.


I want to clarify something on the coverage testing. When I did that testing, there was a very obvious reduction in the resonant frequency. However, it is still way into diminishing returns land. While I did hear a difference, it was minimal compared to the difference between no coverage, and 25% coverage. Lets say a panel is 4 square feet and your deadener of choice is $5 per square foot, and lets say the product and results scaled up perfectly. 

For $5, you would get a 13db reduction in resonant frequency, an across the board reduction in resonance all the way up to at least 1000hz, and a significantly changed waterfall pattern, showing a very good reduction in ringing. 

For another $15, you would get a further 8db reduction in resonant frequency, another slight reduction in across the board overall resonance, but no real improvement in the waterfall plots, meaning the reduction in ringing doesn't really change.

In other words, 400% the cost gets less than 160% the results.


As some people were suggesting that CLD does block some sound, I will be doing some testing of that as well. I have some luxury liner pro from my last build, and some raw mlv from SDS, so I'll test both so we can see what the difference is between materials in blocking sound. That said, from personal experience, I am a firm believer in using a barrier to block sound, rather than CLD, unless the microphone proves otherwise.

I have a lot of products on the way now, so final results are going to take a little longer. I'm going to try to do a better job in the meantime of explaining what we are seeing when I post the graphs, and the realistic use of the results.


----------



## BFYTW

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks DJ.
> 
> 
> I want to clarify something on the coverage testing. When I did that testing, there was a very obvious reduction in the resonant frequency. However, it is still way into diminishing returns land. While I did hear a difference, it was minimal compared to the difference between no coverage, and 25% coverage. Lets say a panel is 4 square feet and your deadener of choice is $5 per square foot, and lets say the product and results scaled up perfectly.
> 
> For $5, you would get a 13db reduction in resonant frequency, an across the board reduction in resonance all the way up to at least 1000hz, and a significantly changed waterfall pattern, showing a very good reduction in ringing.
> 
> For another $15, you would get a further 8db reduction in resonant frequency, another slight reduction in across the board overall resonance, but no real improvement in the waterfall plots, meaning the reduction in ringing doesn't really change.
> 
> In other words, 400% the cost gets less than 160% the results.
> 
> 
> As some people were suggesting that CLD does block some sound, I will be doing some testing of that as well. I have some luxury liner pro from my last build, and some raw mlv from SDS, so I'll test both so we can see what the difference is between materials in blocking sound. That said, from personal experience, I am a firm believer in using a barrier to block sound, rather than CLD, unless the microphone proves otherwise.
> 
> I have a lot of products on the way now, so final results are going to take a little longer. I'm going to try to do a better job in the meantime of explaining what we are seeing when I post the graphs, and the realistic use of the results.


I gotta say. Huge undertaking. Hard to believe as long as this stuff has been in the audio world, no independent test like this has really been done. It also shows how interested people are in some data on the subject. This thread appears to have become quite the hot topic. Strong work.


----------



## 07azhhr

Thank you for doing this TSB. 

Is Thumper sending some Rattle Trap...if not I have some I can send in. I will not use their products anymore out here in the AZ heat but I certainly would like to see it tested.


----------



## left channel

I am not sure if you tested for this but I am wondering if the difference between 25% and 50% would look similar to the difference between 25% and 100%. I would think that there should be a point where you reach maximum damping before you reach 100% coverage. Just wonder what that point is? I may be wrong though.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks DJ.
> 
> 
> I want to clarify something on the coverage testing. When I did that testing, there was a very obvious reduction in the resonant frequency. However, it is still way into diminishing returns land. While I did hear a difference, it was minimal compared to the difference between no coverage, and 25% coverage. Lets say a panel is 4 square feet and your deadener of choice is $5 per square foot, and lets say the product and results scaled up perfectly.
> 
> For $5, you would get a 13db reduction in resonant frequency, an across the board reduction in resonance all the way up to at least 1000hz, and a significantly changed waterfall pattern, showing a very good reduction in ringing.
> 
> For another $15, you would get a further 8db reduction in resonant frequency, another slight reduction in across the board overall resonance, but no real improvement in the waterfall plots, meaning the reduction in ringing doesn't really change.
> 
> In other words, 400% the cost gets less than 160% the results.
> 
> 
> As some people were suggesting that CLD does block some sound, I will be doing some testing of that as well. I have some luxury liner pro from my last build, and some raw mlv from SDS, so I'll test both so we can see what the difference is between materials in blocking sound. That said, from personal experience, I am a firm believer in using a barrier to block sound, rather than CLD, unless the microphone proves otherwise.
> 
> I have a lot of products on the way now, so final results are going to take a little longer. I'm going to try to do a better job in the meantime of explaining what we are seeing when I post the graphs, and the realistic use of the results.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I do plan to test both 50% and 100% again, but that will probably be it. At this point, anything over 25% is going to show up as a diminished return in terms of vibration damping. The fact that quadrupling the coverage only gave a 60% increase at the resonant frequency, and much less everywhere else, means that 50% coverage will also lead to diminished results. I would actually put money on the most damping per dollar at somewhere under 25%. Maybe 20% or so. 


There are absolutely cases where more than 25% may be needed, but for the vast majority of people, I feel its wasted money. If your considering adding more than that, ask yourself why. Is there a specific issue that your having? Are you going after every possible gain (and have the money to spare to do it). And I'm going to say this now. If any company ever tells you to start with 100% coverage, they are either lying through their teeth to make more money off of you, or making up for an under performing product.


BTW, on my last build, you can see that I didn't follow these rules myself. That said, I'm one who usually doesn't mind going after diminished returns. Just look at the kick panels, I could have stopped at just concrete, but I added 9000 steel bbs. Did it help? Maybe 0.0001%. That said, any future deadening I do, will start at 25%, and I will take measurements if I'm going to add more.


----------



## Alrojoca

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks DJ.
> 
> 
> I want to clarify something on the coverage testing. When I did that testing, there was a very obvious reduction in the resonant frequency. However, it is still way into diminishing returns land. While I did hear a difference, it was minimal compared to the difference between no coverage, and 25% coverage. Lets say a panel is 4 square feet and your deadener of choice is $5 per square foot, and lets say the product and results scaled up perfectly.
> 
> For $5, you would get a 13db reduction in resonant frequency, an across the board reduction in resonance all the way up to at least 1000hz, and a significantly changed waterfall pattern, showing a very good reduction in ringing.
> 
> For another $15, you would get a further 8db reduction in resonant frequency, another slight reduction in across the board overall resonance, but no real improvement in the waterfall plots, meaning the reduction in ringing doesn't really change.
> 
> In other words, 400% the cost gets less than 160% the results.
> 
> 
> As some people were suggesting that CLD does block some sound, I will be doing some testing of that as well. I have some luxury liner pro from my last build, and some raw mlv from SDS, so I'll test both so we can see what the difference is between materials in blocking sound. That said, from personal experience, I am a firm believer in using a barrier to block sound, rather than CLD, unless the microphone proves otherwise.
> 
> I have a lot of products on the way now, so final results are going to take a little longer. I'm going to try to do a better job in the meantime of explaining what we are seeing when I post the graphs, and the realistic use of the results.


Great info. I will be interested in knowing the blocking sound diferences between the CLD, MLV and luxury liner pro. It is also a great idea to do that final report on the CLD. Thanks. Have a good time on your days off and I hope everything turns out great with your surgery also.


----------



## praetorian

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> For the minimum testing (vibration, short term heat failure, long term heat) I'd need a 6"x8" piece.
> 
> Dustin, nope, no Fatmat yet. As of now, what I have left in my possession is GTMat 50mil, 110mil, and onyx, STP gold, silver, and vizomat, and Lightning Audio deadskin.
> 
> I have Memphis Mojo Mat on the way, and I believe some Audio Technix as well.
> 
> 
> Ken, I'm going to call you in a few minutes, I've been meaning to do it, its just been crazy busy this week.


I have some BXT II I'd like to donate for testing. Please PM me an address so I can ship it.

One small request; can you test a sample (any sample) with double 95% coverage? I think it would be worthwhile to see what the actual returns on this are.


----------



## TheRealJason

Fascinating stuff guys!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Got the fatmat and damplifier pro. Working on tests right now.

Praetorian, there are plans for the double coverage test, I just want to get the comparisons done first. Its a pain to removal the full coverage pieces.


----------



## therapture

Did I miss one? Was/is there a GTMat Onyx test yet?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've been working on heat testing, since we've had to watch our nieces since thursday. It was really possible to get the house quite enough to test with them here. They're gone now, so I will vibration test Onyx, STP Gold, and Silver today. If there's time, I'll also start with the remainder of the asphalt products. I can't test any of the new products that have come in until I have the chance to cut them monday with the stamp.


----------



## Alrojoca

Will we be able to know if laying the CLD vertically gives more benefit than being messy laying horizontally or from bottom to top as some have mentioned?

Or is it just a myth when doing the 25% coverage? 
No need to do testing for this, it is just a question that I'm sure can be answered without doing a test.  I asume just place it anywhere where we think it will have the most benefit using the knocking method, without worrying about looks for a picture display :laugh:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's a very complicated and loaded question. The reason I marked the center of the metal for testing, is because different points of each panel will have different resonant properties. Generally speaking, the resonant mode at the center "should" be the strongest, but weird panel shapes can change this drastically. I chose the center, because it was the easiest to position everything, and that's usually where most people start. I would expect rectangular pieces to have the same effect whether laid vertically or horizontally, as long as the center of the rectangle is in the center of a square, flat piece of sheet metal that's terminated evenly on each side. Anything else, and it would have to be measured to know.



One of the things I plan on doing next time I test, is testing a rectangular piece. I plan on testing different places on it. This is a long way off, but its something I think we could all learn from. I also want to test different thicknesses, and at all different temps. 

I do plan to test a single square 25% coverage piece, vs 3 smaller pieces that add up to 25%, as I know that has been mentioned. But, it will be far from a definitive test, as there are thousands of combinations that could add up to 25%.


In the end, I don't think I'll do very specific ranks, instead focusing on tiers. Some of the products perform so close, that small variations could change the outcome. Then, some products or groups of products have set themselves apart from others very clearly. And obviously the heat testing will play a role. What good is a great performing product, if it can't stand up to actual use in a car.


----------



## Alrojoca

Thanks, I was just wondering since I heard some members say to lay it vertically but my guess was it was just for looks.

What about the side placement effects, or what side of the metal benefits the most? In other words, if we could deaden the inside of the inner door wall, would that give better results than the side facing door panel? Not sure if the method used for testing can gives us an audible difference or anyone else can tell just based on experience. Thanks!


----------



## HTX

I was just wondering if you are still testing, I have some audio technix 60 mil I would be willing to donate if you are interested.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Alrojoca said:


> Thanks, I was just wondering since I heard some members say to lay it vertically but my guess was it was just for looks.
> 
> What about the side placement effects, or what side of the metal benefits the most? In other words, if we could deaden the inside of the inner door wall, would that give better results than the side facing door panel? Not sure if the method used for testing can gives us an audible difference or anyone else can tell just based on experience. Thanks!


The current test box wouldn't be able to test is, since a flat panel would likely test almost identical no matter which side you put it on. Complex panel shapes might test differently, but are also inherently much more difficult to test. I do absolutely believe that treating both sides of the metal, like in the case of the door panel, would turn up better results than doubling layers would. That's actually a good idea to test, I'll get that worked in after the product comparison is done.


I apologize for the lack of updates, I had to replace on of the hurricane nuts and bolts sat and sunday. I had planned to test last night, but the whole county lost power last night. Kind of sucks, it was perfect as far as background noise level, but couldn't test without power. I verified earlier that the new nut/bolt hasn't changed the results I'm getting by doing multiple metal tests, which all ranged in between the current high and low tests of the bare metal. I'll be testing at least two products later today when the house quiets down.


----------



## Nothingface5384

loving this thread

any chance to getting a sample of the new GTMat Quadro to test?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I believe I have some coming.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

STP-Atlantic Gold

Actual Measurements

Total Thickness - 85mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.85 lbs per square foot

Notes - Very clean removal, just like STP-Bomb in that respect. Overall well performing. 

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GTMat Onyx

Actual Measurements

Total Thickness - 80mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.57 lbs per square foot

Notes - Very very gummy butyl. Almost like the real sticky chewing gum. Odd choice of backing paper, but it works. This one is tricky. On first look at the frequency response graph, it doesn't look much better that GTMat Ultra (80mil). However, comparing the two waterfall plots, the vibration decays much better than GTMat Ultra.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Overlay of Undamped Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So, there's a couple of things about the last tests that I wanted to expand on, one thing that I have learned, and one thing that I want everyone to take away from this.

The first thing, something that I have learned, is you can't tell how something is going to perform by their published specs. A thick constraining layer is great, decent butyl thickness is nice, and all butyl is a good thing. But, even with all those things, the differences in the butyl formula can make or break a product.

Looking at the tests from last night, STP Gold, and GTMat Onyx, are close enough in published specs that they _should_ have performed similar. But, in the situation that I am testing under, Gold tested significantly better in every respect. There was a hint that this might happen before actually testing when I was measuring each one, as Gold was 48% heavier than Onyx, even though Gold was only 6% thicker, and had the same thickness of aluminum. But, that's not conclusive either, as Dynamat, the lightest butyl product so far, performed better than Stinger Roadkill Expert, which is both heavier and thicker, and has a thicker aluminum layer.

So, what have we learned so far? There is no way to tell from constraining layer thickness or butyl thickness, or weight, how well a product performs compared to another. Meaning testing is needed, and this makes me more determined in the future to test again, with a better set up.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So the second thing that everyone needs to take away, is that the waterfall plots are far more important than the frequency response. Last nights tests are a perfect example as well, if we compare GTMat Onyx to GTMat Ultra (80mil).

Looking at the frequency response graph, we see that Onyx lowered amplitude by 2.89db at the resonant frequency. It also lowered the resonant frequency by 12.5hz. Ultra (80mil) lowered amplitude at the resonant frequency by 3.29db, and lowered the resonant frequency by 5.7hz. Seems pretty close right?

Lets look at the amplitude over time. From the initial impulse to the 100ms mark, Onyx lowers the amplitude at the resonant frequency by 11.1db, while Ultra (80mil) only lowers it by 8.1db. Going further out in time, they separate themselves even further. From impulse to 200ms, Onyx lowers amplitude at the resonant frequency by 30.3db, which Ultra (80mil) only lowers it by 22db. Going to 300ms would separate the two even further.

While the initial impulse changes between the two aren't significant, the changes in amplitude over time, are. The difference is audible. Ultra (80mil) still rings, while Onyx decays much faster.


----------



## Beckerson1

Me like what I'm seeing.

Keep this up


----------



## nineball76

Deciding between the Audio Technix 80mil and the Knu Kolossus and Damp Pro. Thanks for this. Just in time for what I was needing to know.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Damp Pro should be tested tomorrow, along with Raamat, STP Silver, and Memphis Mojo Mat. 

That said, keep in mind, I still have heat testing to do, and that will play heavily on how I rank these products in the end. The best damper is no good in my eyes if it can't stay attached to the roof when its 110 out, or on the firewall.


----------



## DaWiz711

You are simply an awesome person for doing this testing any making your findings public. Thank you! I look forward to reading the results!

The worst Instagram you've ever seen.... @ dawiz711


----------



## spl152db

Can you do a final summary post when you're done? It's so hard to go through and find all the test results. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Absolutely, there will be a results thread, where everything is put together. I've been working on it as I go, it should be in PDF format. Right now, were looking at close to 75 pages for the full in depth results of all products, that said there will be a simple speadsheet at the beginning with a simplified version.


----------



## Alrojoca

Great! I had to read a few pages back to catch up with some of the brands tested. 

Sorry but Im not so great at reading the graphs and figuring out the fast decay I just need to get used to it and now I just look at the specs read the conclusion since most grraphs are similar. Will it be possible maybe in the final summary also nominate the better performer not just on the numbers and sonic difference but maybe on better Performance based on lighter weight assuming any of them is worth mentioning or a case applies.
thanks.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

This weekend I worked through the data to come up with a way to rank the products based on vibration damping performance. Lots and lots and lots of zooming in, zooming back out, windowing things differently, etc. I'll work on getting those online by mid week. Also tested Damp Pro, Memphis Mojo Mat, and STP Silver. Some surprising results, I'll get them up after work.


----------



## abusiveDAD

thank you so much for all of your work on this!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Second Skin Damplifier Pro

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 75mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 6.25mil

0.55 lbs per square foot

Notes - Seems a little under on total thickness. 75mil is the thickest measurement I made, some measurements were around 70mil. I'm going to cut more pieces from around the sheet and measure them as well. Constraining layer was just barely under. Weight was under as well.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Memphis Audio Mojo Mat

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 80mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.67 lbs per square foot

Notes - Stick butyl, not as gummy as Onyx or Stinger. Feels relatively stiff.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

STP-Atlantic Silver

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 80mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 3mil

0.74 lbs per square foot

Notes - Again, all STP has the cleanest removing butyl. Thin aluminum layer.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## rdubbs

Very interesting results indeed  Looking forward to your final conclusions!


----------



## FaintReality

Looks like STP takes the win all around yet it's the one product I have a hard time finding online lol. 

Nice work thus far, thanks again.


----------



## nineball76

Wow. The results for Damplifier Pro are surprising. I expected more out of it. I have a large order of audio technix coming at the end of the week, hope I made a good choice.


----------



## abusiveDAD

love to see the focal stuff


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There's a few things going on here. If you just look at the the frequency response graphs, it doesn't appear that Damp Pro is a very good damper, but that would be misleading, as the difference between frequency response graphs is not what tells how good a damper a product is. The Damped Waterfall plot is what shows that. I know its hard to read them, but those are what needs to be looked at first. 

The frequency response plot shows something else. For instance, one product puts up a good number when you compare frequency response plots, but performs poorly when looking at the waterfall plot. This means that over time, the product does a poor job at damping vibration. The big number between frequency response plots represents the instant amplitude reduction between undamped metal and damped metal. This can be caused by a product acting more as bracing, increasing rigidity, while not _damping_ vibration as well as other products that don't increase the rigidity as much.


Give me a few minutes and I'll expand, I'm putting the numbers together now.


----------



## Beckerson1

Have you thought about expanding this into other deadening measures? Such as adding CCF and MLV


I'm not talking about testing that right now but in the future maybe. Would be nice to see the results.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, so I have two ways I can list the order of product performance. I will not at any time list it based on the reduction in frequency response between bare metal and damped metal. I will also not list a final, comprehensive order of performance, as it would require me to subjectively pick and choose which measurements carry the most importance.

The comparative frequency response graphs are showing the reduction in impulse amplitude between the bare metal and damped metal. This is not a measure of damping, but other things going on, like bracing the panel.

As the measure of damping is the measure of how quickly a material reduces vibration over time, the Damped Waterfall graphs most clearly show how well a product works as a damper. Oberst Beam testing is very good at showing this number, but with a few catches. It is almost always done with 100% coverage. Since the numbers released from such testing are damping coefficients, its difficult to know what other effects are going on, such as panel bracing. Lastly, its always done on narrow strips of metal, to limit complex shapes from affecting the results. As you can imagine, this doesn't apply very well to what we are doing.

So, in a car, I can imagine the most wanted number as far as performance, is the reduction in vibration combined with the instant reduction in impulse amplitude.

This weekend I windowed the damped waterfall graphs down to 150ms. I picked that number, as past that, the top performing product decays to the level of background noise. To get the combined vibration damping reduction, along with the impulse reduction, I added the impulse amplitude reduction in db (taken from the comparative frequency response graphs), and the reduction in vibration in db from the initial damped impulse, to 150ms later. When I post the final results, the waterfall graphs will be windowed to 150ms as well.


The second way I can rank the products, is strictly by damping performance. This ignores the impulse amplitude reduction, and only uses the reduction in amplitude from the damped impulse, to 150ms later.



The top three, and bottom four products so far do not change no matter which method I use. Sixth place doesn't change either. Fourth and fifth exchange places depending on which method I use. Seventh and eighth exchange places, and ninth and tenth also exchange places.



I have 7 more products on hand to test. I'm supposed to have 2 more on the way currently. At this point, I have all major products, aside from Cascade and Focal products, which I'd love to test, am not able to procure myself. I'm going to email Orca tomorrow, and see if they are willing to donate, but I'm not holding my breath. I may also email Cascade, but I really don't see them donating for this, as they already do their own testing (oberst beam testing).


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Beckerson, I plan to do a test comparing the sound transmission loss difference between vibration damping and MLV. It will be one of the last things I do.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Beckerson, I plan to do a test comparing the sound transmission loss difference between vibration damping and MLV. It will be one of the last things I do.


Cool beans


----------



## fast94tracer

Looking forward to the results

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Raamat BXT2

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 60mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.57 lbs per square foot

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm going to pull off my Neon's door this winter and test some things in car. Not so much vibration damping, but after seeing how many people still put thin closed cell foam behind speakers and claim there's a difference, I feel it needs to be tested. Since any difference heard would be the result of either frequency response, distortion, or decay (likely the first or last of those), and the microphone is better at picking out differences in those things than the human ear, I plan to test it. Closed cell foam, deflex pads, and fiberglass.


----------



## therapture

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm going to pull off my Neon's door this winter and test some things in car. Not so much vibration damping, but after seeing how many people still put thin closed cell foam behind speakers and claim there's a difference, I feel it needs to be tested. Since any difference heard would be the result of either frequency response, distortion, or decay (likely the first or last of those), and the microphone is better at picking out differences in those things than the human ear, I plan to test it. Closed cell foam, deflex pads, and fiberglass.


You're a glutton for punishment! Thanks for all your hard work


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, thanks. Neons parked anyways, been trying to ride myself back into shape by riding to work, so its easy enough to leave the door off for a week or two.


----------



## Hanatsu

Did you plan to test Silent Coat btw? 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I would like to test it, especially after seeing the claims on the site. I just dont have the budget for it after some things fell through, and housing costs went up (another part of the reason the neon is parked, I dropped insurance on it). Focal and cascade are also on my short list, but I dont know if its fair to drag out the final results, as it will likely be 2 months before I can personally pick anything up.


----------



## spl152db

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm going to pull off my Neon's door this winter and test some things in car. Not so much vibration damping, but after seeing how many people still put thin closed cell foam behind speakers and claim there's a difference, I feel it needs to be tested. Since any difference heard would be the result of either frequency response, distortion, or decay (likely the first or last of those), and the microphone is better at picking out differences in those things than the human ear, I plan to test it. Closed cell foam, deflex pads, and fiberglass.


the whole thing with this is that it semi seals the door and the pressure against the door skin reduces rattles. So those that notice a difference, didn't seal their doors previously with any material and have a door skin that needs treatment like glue in the seams and foam to isolate it from the door panel.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Im talking more about people that glue things like ensolite on the outer skin behind the speakers hoping that it "absorbs or breaks up the backwave". Thats what ill be testing, mostly since I already have ccf, deflex pads, and fiberglass.


----------



## spl152db

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Im talking more about people that glue things like ensolite on the outer skin behind the speakers hoping that it "absorbs or breaks up the backwave". Thats what ill be testing, mostly since I already have ccf, deflex pads, and fiberglass.


yea i didn't read the "behind the speaker" part. I really need to stop reading so fast.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, I do it all the time.


----------



## Alrojoca

Hanatsu said:


> Found a US site, seems like it's available then. Everyone at competitions here in Sweden seems to bash this dampener because it's pretty cheap or something. Would be interesting to see how it compares to Dynamat and STP
> 
> Silent Coat US Silent Coat US I Sound and Vibration Dampening Products


Im curious about this one too they claim to be the best, just checked and it's sold at amazon, not that cheap here in the US it goes for more money than Dynamat at a discounted price, but they have a line of many other foams, diffusers and pads to help with sound not only for cars.


----------



## Alrojoca

Regarding the peel and seal, the weakest of all. The graph or chart looks like it did nothing to the sound frequency. But I can't tell by it if it reduced vibration and no info was provided other than it will be tested again. Not worth it I know I'm just wondering if it did anything as far as reducing vibration since vibration causes rattles and apparently on you tube many use peel and seal and claim some benefit from it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

At the resonant frequency it did almost nothing. At 150ms out from the impulse, its reduced vibration by 6.75db iirc. But, at the resonant frequency, it showed no change in amplitude at 0ms. Ill be testing it again, if for anything else, to see the tolerances of this testing. I have 1/3 a roll of it.

I can see how people use it and think it works however, as it does seem to work better the higher the frequency. Since people are more sensitive there, they hear an improvement, and if they havent used anything else, that may lead them to believe it works well. Peel n seal does work better than nothing at all. But everything else ive tested so far works better than peel n seal.


----------



## SkipNJ

So, do you have a lead on Cascade VMax? I could mail you a 12x12" piece.


----------



## rton20s

SkipNJ said:


> So, do you have a lead on Cascade VMax? I could mail you a 12x12" piece.



Do it! I found this interesting on their site...



Cascade Audio Engineering said:


> The butyl, or adhesive layer, is very agressive and the bond will actually improve over time. Another characteristic that is unique to V-MAX is that it can be removed and re-installed easily.


You would think these characteristics would not be possible using the same adhesive.


----------



## SkipNJ

Yeah, one of the reasons I went with cascade was the "removable" claim, and that I found some cheap on the classifieds here  

The stuff will conform over time to whatever position its put in, which is maybe how the bond improves. I had the box standing upright and it kind of slumped into a wavey shape. Now I have the box laying flat with text books stacked on it to try to flatten it out again.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I don't have any leads on Vmax, I had a lead on VB-2 but it was too much to ship from canada. 


STP-Atlantics products are also pretty removable. Not reusable, but very removable. Comes off in one piece, without much effort at all. You just peel up one corner with a putty knife and just pull. 

I've also noticed that with many of the current butyl products I've tested, the bond has improved with time. This is why I've been testing right after applying across the board, so its fair. I don't always remove them right away, and when I don't, its noticeably more difficult to remove.


Skip, I'll pm you when I get home, pms don't work that well on my phone.


----------



## 07azhhr

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've also noticed that with many of the current butyl products I've tested, the bond has improved with time. This is why I've been testing right after applying across the board, so its fair. I don't always remove them right away, and when I don't, its noticeably more difficult to remove.
> 
> .


 
This might be something to test. See if there is a change in the results after the better bond develops.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Agreed. It may be something that I have to do a full test on in the future, as I couldn't retest everything ive already tested, not enough of some products to do so. Looking at sds, Don rates his adhesive for immediate strength, and strength after 96 hours. Looks like strength at 96 hours is almost 5x that of the immediate strenght. So I would need about 5 days per product to fully test this. 

Ive been working on the next tests on paper and in my head. The next setup will have a steel clamping structure, forr better repeatability, and guiding dowels to position the metal exactly the same every time. The entire setup will be enclosed in an insolated enclosure, so I can test at multiple temps. Tests will take much longer, but be more accurate in general, and give much more information. Cost will ne much higher though, so it will be a while before I can even begin working on it. Like everyone else, im learning as I go. In the beginning I had said the biggest disappointment would be for all my hunches to prove correct and to not gain much insight on the subject. Well, that clearly didn't happen.


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ok, so I have two ways I can list the order of product performance. I will not at any time list it based on the reduction in frequency response between bare metal and damped metal. I will also not list a final, comprehensive order of performance, as it would require me to subjectively pick and choose which measurements carry the most importance.
> 
> The comparative frequency response graphs are showing the reduction in impulse amplitude between the bare metal and damped metal. This is not a measure of damping, but other things going on, like bracing the panel.
> 
> As the measure of damping is the measure of how quickly a material reduces vibration over time, the Damped Waterfall graphs most clearly show how well a product works as a damper. Oberst Beam testing is very good at showing this number, but with a few catches. It is almost always done with 100% coverage. Since the numbers released from such testing are damping coefficients, its difficult to know what other effects are going on, such as panel bracing. Lastly, its always done on narrow strips of metal, to limit complex shapes from affecting the results. As you can imagine, this doesn't apply very well to what we are doing.
> 
> So, in a car, I can imagine the most wanted number as far as performance, is the reduction in vibration combined with the instant reduction in impulse amplitude.
> 
> This weekend I windowed the damped waterfall graphs down to 150ms. I picked that number, as past that, the top performing product decays to the level of background noise. To get the combined vibration damping reduction, along with the impulse reduction, I added the impulse amplitude reduction in db (taken from the comparative frequency response graphs), and the reduction in vibration in db from the initial damped impulse, to 150ms later. When I post the final results, the waterfall graphs will be windowed to 150ms as well.
> 
> 
> The second way I can rank the products, is strictly by damping performance. This ignores the impulse amplitude reduction, and only uses the reduction in amplitude from the damped impulse, to 150ms later.
> 
> 
> 
> The top three, and bottom four products so far do not change no matter which method I use. Sixth place doesn't change either. Fourth and fifth exchange places depending on which method I use. Seventh and eighth exchange places, and ninth and tenth also exchange places.
> 
> 
> 
> I have 7 more products on hand to test. I'm supposed to have 2 more on the way currently. At this point, I have all major products, aside from Cascade and Focal products, which I'd love to test, am not able to procure myself. I'm going to email Orca tomorrow, and see if they are willing to donate, but I'm not holding my breath. I may also email Cascade, but I really don't see them donating for this, as they already do their own testing (oberst beam testing).


I'm looking forward to the final/ranked results and hope GTMat Quadro and Silent Coat 5mm Multi-layer makes it into the results


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I actually havent received quadro yet. Its supposed to be on the way, so we'll see. Onyx didn't test that well, although I have enough to test again for consistency.


----------



## silentcoat

I would be happy to supply samples of all our products for testing. 2mm, 4mm and our 5mm multi layer. Also we manufacture a complete line of foams for sound, I can send them as well. Send to who?


----------



## subwoofery

silentcoat said:


> I would be happy to supply samples of all our products for testing. 2mm, 4mm and our 5mm multi layer. Also we manufacture a complete line of foams for sound, I can send the as well. Send to who?


Sweet, thanks for doing this  

Kelvin


----------



## Nothingface5384

silentcoat said:


> Send to who?


TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/members/toostubborn2fail.html

and Thanks for being awesome


----------



## silentcoat

Done I will send him a PM right now


----------



## rton20s

Chris,

I was wondering if you had figured out yet, that you had taken on an never ending task? 

Seriously man, a huge thanks for all of the work you are doing on this. Things have been pretty crazy for me over the last couple of weeks, but if there is something I can help on please let me know. 

In terms of your future testing and the test environment, I would be happy to help out there as well. I can do the design work (technical drawings, quantity take-offs, etc.) and know quite a few sources for material sourcing and more advanced fabrication (both local and not so local).


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

PM's sent to Skip and Silent Coat.

Ya, its definitely more than I was expecting at first, but as I'm learning more than I thought I would, its not too bad. I need to PM Bing and see if bribing him with your wifes ice cream helps get us some Blackhole products to test lol.

I'll probably work up a basic sketch this weekend of the new test rig this weekend. I have that problem of thinking way ahead, but I forgot about the 3 day weekend. I have a portable heater and ac I can use for heating and cooling.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> PM's sent to Skip and Silent Coat.
> 
> Ya, its definitely more than I was expecting at first, but as I'm learning more than I thought I would, its not too bad. I need to PM Bing and see if bribing him with your wifes ice cream helps get us some Blackhole products to test lol.
> 
> I'll probably work up a basic sketch this weekend of the new test rig this weekend. I have that problem of thinking way ahead, but I forgot about the 3 day weekend. I have a portable heater and ac I can use for heating and cooling.


Issue there is how to easily maintain a specific temperature within say a set variable for a period of time. Touching or even breathing can effect the temp. But depends on how specific you want to be.


----------



## Alrojoca

Cool, now Silent Coat is in the game! This is getting better!


----------



## DJNight2k

DJNight2k said:


> Curious if anyone has any experience with this "value" product I found on ebay. 1 New Bulk Roll Mat 100 sqft Butyl Rubber Use as Auto Sound Deadener Material | eBay
> Thinner aluminum backing (2mil) but has a fiber built into or onto it for strength and it is cheap enough that I could double it up alot for the same price as the name brand stuff. It is a butyl product which is what caught my eye. Need to do my car but don't have the budget for the top shelf stuff so I am very interested in how some of the "cheaper" products are doing.





DeanE10 said:


> I have some of this actually DJ... I can send it over to you Chris if you have time to test it?


Did DeanE10 send you a sample of this ebay stuff to test? Curious if you had gotten it yet and plan to test it.


----------



## DeanE10

hhmmm... Looks like you might not have received this yet Chris? I will get this taken care of, sorry for any delay... 

Also, have you tested the GTMat 110 Mil Product yet?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dean, I actually just bolted up the panel for the 110 test. I'll also be testing the regular GTMat and Lightning Audio Deadskin. 

Berckerson, I'll expand on the idea this weekend, but the new setup would allow for temperature control, and holding the temps steady for long enough for each test. It would be similar to the test rig now, but better built, and the entire thing would be enclosed inside a larger, heavily insulated enclosure.


----------



## derekmurray169

I just sent you a PM about a product you might be interested in testing. 

Derek


----------



## silentcoat

This is Roy from silent Coat. Toostubborn2fail you sent me a PM tonight and for some reason there was nothing in your message. Perhaps since I'm new to this forum I'm not looking in the right place, but I think something happened to your PM


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Roy, I just checked my end, and it shows up. I resent it, let me know if it goes through, if not, you can pm me an email address I can send it to. Your pms are showing good on my end.

Derek, I'll pm you back in a few minutes

Looks like no Lightning Audio test today, ran out of cleaning supplies to clean the metal between tests. Both GTMat 110mil and 50mil are done, and will be up shortly.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GTMat 110mil

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 110mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 2mil

0.65 lbs per square foot

Notes - I hate removing asphalt products. The hardest product I have had to remove so far. Has a definite asphalt smell.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall


----------



## silentcoat

Ok, I got it and replied to you. After the holiday I will send you a big package of all my products for your review.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GTMat 50mil

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 45mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 2mil

0.24 lbs per square foot

Notes - Hard to remove, slightly thinner than spec, I measured in many locations to confirm.

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall 


Damped Metal Frequency Response


----------



## Nothingface5384

would Frost king insulation be worth testing?
heres a vid of seal n peel vs frost king

Dynamat Project Complete!!!! Peel and Seal vs. Frost Kings Air Duct Insulator - YouTube

MurderMat is something different with a layer of vinyl, dont recall if its been mentioned or tested


----------



## 07azhhr

Wow on the 50mil GTMat, if I did not look at the wfp above 200hz I would think either you retested the bare metal or that it just did not do any thing lol. The 110mil did not look a whole lot better either and it to seemed to do the most work in the 200-800 range.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

To be honest, 110mil outperforms 3 butyl products, on vibration performance alone. Heat testing may show different, we'll have to wait to see for that.

50mil outperformed peel n seel as well, although that's as high as it went. 

I'll be retesting each of them 2 more times to get a feel for tolerances.


----------



## silentcoat

I will still donate all the samples of our Silentcoat products as promised, but now I'm being asked to upgrade my account to a vendor account, why. Perhaps because of my username LOL


----------



## Hanatsu

Very interested to see the results of Silent Coat... damped my entire car with their stuff and like 10 of my friends as well


----------



## rton20s

Hanatsu said:


> Very interested to see the results of Silent Coat... damped my entire car with their stuff and like 10 of my friends as well


I can't believe that your friends enjoyed the experience of being dampened.


----------



## silentcoat

Hanatsu said:


> Very interested to see the results of Silent Coat... damped my entire car with their stuff and like 10 of my friends as well


Thank you to our friends in Europe.


----------



## Hanatsu

rton20s said:


> I can't believe that your friends enjoyed the experience of being dampened.


Rofl...


----------



## Woosey

Hanatsu said:


> Very interested to see the results of Silent Coat... damped my entire car with their stuff and like 10 of my friends as well


same here..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Nothingface5384 said:


> would Frost king insulation be worth testing?
> heres a vid of seal n peel vs frost king
> 
> Dynamat Project Complete!!!! Peel and Seal vs. Frost Kings Air Duct Insulator - YouTube
> 
> MurderMat is something different with a layer of vinyl, dont recall if its been mentioned or tested


From what I've seen, frost king is a foam base, with thin aluminum layer. I would expect it to perform worse than peel n seal, but I would be willing to test if someone had some.



As for murdermat, I'm very curious. It's also made me curious if the plastic layer on the KnuKoncepts stuff is vinyl. The published specs and design between the two products is very close. I can't order any (probably not for 2 months), but if anyone has some, I'll test it.



rton20s said:


> I can't believe that your friends enjoyed the experience of being dampened.


Lol, I'd love to damp some people at work. Of course maybe a barrier would work better to quiet the whining down.


----------



## NoAudioFile

interested in some info on focal bam


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> From what I've seen, frost king is a foam base, with thin aluminum layer. I would expect it to perform worse than peel n seal, but I would be willing to test if someone had some.
> 
> 
> 
> As for murdermat, I'm very curious. It's also made me curious if the plastic layer on the KnuKoncepts stuff is vinyl. The published specs and design between the two products is very close. I can't order any (probably not for 2 months), but if anyone has some, I'll test it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, I'd love to damp some people at work. Of course maybe a barrier would work better to quiet the whining down.


 Yeah Frostking may be better suited to be compared with ccf type products.
HOPEFULLY we'll be having a sample or two from MurderMat on the way next week..should know by tmrw at some point.

Thanks again for your extreme efforts on product testing


----------



## Alrojoca

Performance has a price and weight, so far the best performers are heavy.

It seems that the better performers being lighter are Dynamat and one of the knukonceptz deadeners but I may be doing the math wrong because Alpha and SDS showed good on the charts too.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So far, its true that the current 1st and 3rd best performing products are heavy, at about 1.5lbs and 1lbs per square foot. But, 2nd is around .75 lbs per square foot, and 4th and 5th are around there too.


----------



## Nothingface5384

We should have samples for Murdermat sometime next week
2 sq. feet of both their products


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Awesome.


I'm going to finish with the last products I currently have for vibration testing tomorrow. I have Fatmat, STP Vizomat, Rattletrap, and Deadskin to test from what I've received so far. I will likely take a break sunday and monday.

After that, I'll test tuesday through thursday, but friday I wont be testing. My upcoming surgery is cancelled, as my mom needs emergency surgery. So that will be taken some of my time.


----------



## DATCAT

I have been watching this thread for a while and mention to ask if you need some Alphadamp to run through your tests?


----------



## DeanE10

DATCAT said:


> I have been watching this thread for a while and mention to ask if you need some Alphadamp to run through your tests?


IT was tested here in case you missed it: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944965-post251.html

I am sure he could use more though...


----------



## Nothingface5384

DATCAT said:


> I have been watching this thread for a while and mention to ask if you need some Alphadamp to run through your tests?


results for Alphadamp is on page 11 in this thread


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Awesome.
> 
> 
> I'm going to finish with the last products I currently have for vibration testing tomorrow. I have Fatmat, STP Vizomat, Rattletrap, and Deadskin to test from what I've received so far. I will likely take a break sunday and monday.
> 
> After that, I'll test tuesday through thursday, but friday I wont be testing. My upcoming surgery is cancelled, as my mom needs emergency surgery. So that will be taken some of my time.


Sorry to hear about the surgeries, hope both go well.

I'm assuming the GTMat Quadro go mixed up in the mail or something? as DeanE10 said you should of received it by now?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Datcat, I actually got another sheet of Alphadamp with the Rattletrap that came in, so I have enough to test two more times for consistency, plus the heat testing. Thank you for asking though.

I'm not sure about the Quadro, as soon as it gets here, I'll let everyone know. I haven't checked the door step yet, but so far everything has been delivered to the mailbox.

Thanks Nothingface, yeah were weren't expecting it. She has an ongoing problem, with L1-L5 vertebrae damaged, as well as both knees, but this is something else entirely, just an old age thing. Cervical Spinal Stenosis. Basically narrowing of the spinal canal, causing pressure on the spinal cord, in this case caused by multiple bone spurs in the neck as well as a thickened longitudinal tendon, likely caused by aging. Spinal canal width is around 11mm average, the MRI shows hers around 6mm. Any accident, fall, etc, has a high chance of paralysis. Shes in a neck brace until they can schedule it.

In comparison, my surgery to fixed a damaged septum is sacrificial to help her with hers.


----------



## DeanE10

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm not sure about the Quadro, as soon as it gets here, I'll let everyone know. I haven't checked the door step yet, but so far everything has been delivered to the mailbox.


hhmm.. Sent twice... I will look into this again


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Are you getting it back after sending? I double checked the pm to you with the address, and its right. Someone is home at all times, so it would either have to be getting lost in the mail, or someone is taking it.


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Are you getting it back after sending? I double checked the pm to you with the address, and its right. Someone is home at all times, so it would either have to be getting lost in the mail, or someone is taking it.


If anyone has the tracking number, That should help explain the issue


----------



## Darth SQ

NoAudioFile said:


> interested in some info on focal bam


Where can you find it?
Or Black Hole for that matter?
Only Bing at SIS has some and I don't know where he gets it.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## NoAudioFile

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Where can you find it?
> Or Black Hole for that matter?
> Only Bing at SIS has some and I don't know where he gets it.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


You can get it from The Car Stereo Company in Mt. View. That's all they use.


----------



## rton20s

You should be able to get the Focal and Black Hole products through your local Orca rep. I would think anyone that carries Mosconi, Focal, or Illusion Audio should be able to order some for you.


----------



## 69Voltage

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks Nothingface, yeah were weren't expecting it. She has an ongoing problem, with L1-L5 vertebrae damaged, as well as both knees, but this is something else entirely, just an old age thing. Cervical Spinal Stenosis. Basically narrowing of the spinal canal, causing pressure on the spinal cord, in this case caused by multiple bone spurs in the neck as well as a thickened longitudinal tendon, likely caused by aging. Spinal canal width is around 11mm average, the MRI shows hers around 6mm. Any accident, fall, etc, has a high chance of paralysis. Shes in a neck brace until they can schedule it.
> 
> In comparison, my surgery to fixed a damaged septum is sacrificial to help her with hers.


Best of luck to you both. Hope the surgeries help out.


----------



## james2266

rton20s said:


> You should be able to get the Focal and Black Hole products through your local Orca rep. I would think anyone that carries Mosconi, Focal, or Illusion Audio should be able to order some for you.


Maybe Canada is a little different but I find just about any high end dealer can get it. My dealer doesn't carry any of those lines (god, I wish they did tho) but they have at least the Black Hole Tile available and the Black Hole Stuff too. They use Cascade for their dampening however and have never seen them use Focal Bam. I do have a Focal/Mosconi dealer here tho and I could probably land that there.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll check the local Mosconi shop for the Black Hole products. Not sure that shop will be willing to order it, as Rton20s can vouch for, but I'll try. I'll get in touch with Bing first, I'd rather purchase from them than the local option. I did get a donation however that will allow me to pick up some Black Hole products.


Dean, I got the Quadro sample from GTMat today. Let me know if you were still going to send the ebay product.


----------



## rton20s

I'd would probably try to get my product from Bing before the local option. Oh, wait... I did get my product from Bing instead of the local option! 

Glad to hear the mystery of the missing GTMat has been resolved.


----------



## DeanE10

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dean, I got the Quadro sample from GTMat today. Let me know if you were still going to send the ebay product.


There was a 12x12 of the ebay stuff in the first shipment... Let me see about getting another one over to you.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Got Murdermat in last night, both products from them. When I test, I'll be testing both with, and without the vinyl layer, since its claimed that it can be removed for those who don't want the graphics. I'll be testing tonight, fatmat, rattletrap, and vizomat.


----------



## pintsize725

DeanE10 said:


> There was a 12x12 of the ebay stuff in the first shipment... Let me see about getting another one over to you.


Wow. Sounds like their attention to detail has gone down the drain.


----------



## DeanE10

pintsize725 said:


> Wow. Sounds like their attention to detail has gone down the drain.


Not sure what happened T... First shipment out never made it to Chris... Second shipment did but I never added in the 12 x 12 square of the stuff I have.

I have another going out today though... Let me know if it comes in Chris.

Thanks!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Will do.


----------



## DejaWiz

Such awesome info in a single thread. TS2F, thank you so much for all your dedication and work on the testing. Especially with how hectic things have been for you while still knocking these tests out.

I'm planning on an active component front stage, single sub, 5ch amp, and a LOC/sound processor (LC7i is tops on my list) while making for a basic and cheap SQ install in my car, and one thing I want to do is properly deaden things up a bit. This thread has been such a huge help so far, and I am eagerly waiting for the final results thread. Great job!


----------



## GOYOP

TooStubborn -

Great progress. Congratulations. I have some info for you and hopefully some encouragement for when any other rocks get thrown your way.

First I took a hard look at accelerometers and they are just too noisy and have to be attached to the panel. The best way is what you are doing. I don't remember what mic you are using but you may need to correct for the curve of the mic. But since you are using it on all the samples it is not a huge issue.

For the idiots who challenge what you are doing, I know it is difficult when that happens but just as taxes and death are certain, so are idiots when you are doing something important. We can talk in PM but I have 30 years experience dealing with this and the trick is to not give any energy to them. You aren't doing this work for them, you are doing it for the 99.9% who get it and support your efforts. My suggestion would be to tell them that they can run their testing any way they want. At least you are actually doing it and not just talking about it.

I am an engineer and scientist and know great statisticians who have PhD's. Any experiment can be pulled apart because there is no perfect experiment. You have shown great care in the process and have worked very hard to minimize inconsistencies given your limited resources. I and many others are impressed. The results that you have provided and will provide are extremely valuable. It is a starting place to sort out what is what. You may or may not continue to refine your process - either way your results will stand. And it will force changes that will benefit car lovers who spend way too much money on a variety of things that don't do what is claimed. It may be that a multi million dollar lab under the strictest of standards would come up with the exact same results as you. I can say for sure that those results wouldn't be far off from yours. It just isn't possible.

Good job.


----------



## DATCAT

^^^^^ what he said


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GOYOP said:


> TooStubborn -
> 
> Great progress. Congratulations. I have some info for you and hopefully some encouragement for when any other rocks get thrown your way.
> 
> First I took a hard look at accelerometers and they are just too noisy and have to be attached to the panel. The best way is what you are doing. I don't remember what mic you are using but you may need to correct for the curve of the mic. But since you are using it on all the samples it is not a huge issue.
> 
> For the idiots who challenge what you are doing, I know it is difficult when that happens but just as taxes and death are certain, so are idiots when you are doing something important. We can talk in PM but I have 30 years experience dealing with this and the trick is to not give any energy to them. You aren't doing this work for them, you are doing it for the 99.9% who get it and support your efforts. My suggestion would be to tell them that they can run their testing any way they want. At least you are actually doing it and not just talking about it.
> 
> I am an engineer and scientist and know great statisticians who have PhD's. Any experiment can be pulled apart because there is no perfect experiment. You have shown great care in the process and have worked very hard to minimize inconsistencies given your limited resources. I and many others are impressed. The results that you have provided and will provide are extremely valuable. It is a starting place to sort out what is what. You may or may not continue to refine your process - either way your results will stand. And it will force changes that will benefit car lovers who spend way too much money on a variety of things that don't do what is claimed. It may be that a multi million dollar lab under the strictest of standards would come up with the exact same results as you. I can say for sure that those results wouldn't be far off from yours. It just isn't possible.
> 
> Good job.



Thanks. I've come to pretty much the same conclusion about using an accelerometer. The dynamic range needed seems to be much higher than I would be able to get with an accelerometer. I'm using the microphone that comes with the Dayton Omnimic, which should be similar to the Behringer ECM8000, although the Dayton mic is a usb powered unit. I'm using the calibration file it came with as well.

There will be a time where I go more in depth, probably a ways off so I can be ready for it. I've been working on design of a new test set-up that will allow me to test each sample at multiple temps, which is something important that this test is missing. It would also have a largely reduced noise floor, and have a much better clamping system. I'll get some drawings done up this weekend. This project is probably going to end up with a 100+ page report.

I'll have more info later, but I do want people to know that Don and I talked and are ok. He clarified his concerns on testing, and I clarified the process and we both actually have a lot of the same concerns. I'll explain more later.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

So I had this all typed out last night, but lost it, and it was too late to re-type it.

My biggest concern with the release of results before having time to go over it all, was the possible misunderstanding of the results, and then, the possible use of the results to falsely claim that they objectively prove something that they in fact, do not. This came to light with the 25% vs 100% testing, where people used the improvement seen to justify using 100% (or more) coverage. But when you really look at the results, they clearly show hugely diminished returns by 100% coverage, gaining a performing 160% as well as 25% coverage, for 400% the cost, and that's ignoring that it does almost nothing at higher frequencies. This is where Don's post's came from, and I understand them after talking with him more on the subject. It seems that he has also gone down this path, with similar testing, and didn't feel comfortable releasing anything for these reasons. 

I really had wanted to wait to release the info, until everything was finished, but ultimately, I caved in because this testing wouldn't be possible for me without the help I received from people on this forum. So, in the future, I will continue to release as I test, but I will be trying to better explain what the results show.



On another note, I got Silent Coat products in friday. I cut them monday, and that's where I ran into problems. They are the first product I have been unable to successfully use the die to cut. It is pulling apart the aluminum at the corners and edges. I cut other products afterwards, and they cut perfectly. I am going to test the samples that were damaged anyways, and then cut some with scissors, and test them as well. But there will have to be an asterisk next to the results, as its not quite the same as the others.

Damage to the multilayer product. This is a butyl, bitmen, and mastic product. It also smells heavily of heavy duty petroleum grease, like that used in heavy equipement. Its also a similar red in color as said grease.


This is their 4mm product, a butyl and mastic product.


And this is their 2mm product, a butyl and mastic product.


And this is the current test pile. At least one sample of all untested products, and several samples of already tested products for consistency testing. There will be more too.


----------



## EditTim

Chris, awesome job on this huge undertaking.

That's quite the test pile there (last pic)...
Is that a foam backed product in there? What's that?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GTMat Quadro. Supposed to be 60mil butyl, 4mil aluminum, 60mil butyl, 3/16" foam. I'm not sure if ill be able to measure the butyl layer, as it seems like removing the foam to measure it will damage the butyl layer, so we may just get a total thickness, and metal thickness.


----------



## Alrojoca

Heat test and Removal video on some of the ones tested here but not all


Sound Deadener Heat Test Comparison - YouTube


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Interesting. I haven't planned on doing adhesive testing in this round, because I didn't have a good way to do it. Next time I will, but of course ill need more of each brand to do it with. For heat testing, ill be measuring my firewall, since my car has the headers in the back of the engine bay, and the cat right under that. Whatever temp that comes out after an around town drive, is what ill use for the first temp, rounded up to the nearest 25 degree mark. Any product that fails that test, gets a zero for heat testing. After that, temp will go up to 400, as that's the highest rating of any of the current deadeners in the test. The ones that pass the first test, will be timed on how long they last on the second test.


----------



## rton20s

And what if they outlast the second test?! I can bring by a oxy-acetylene torch.


----------



## Beckerson1

rton20s said:


> And what if they outlast the second test?! I can bring by a oxy-acetylene torch.


At that point he would throw them at the sun. See which one lasts the longest


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^lol, I was thinking of using the butane torch that I've been using to try to eliminate the black widow infestation of the neighborhood with.




I just got the ebay product in as well that was talked about a few pages back. Its interesting, no smell, but no aluminum either. Almost like duct tape, over rubber.


----------



## GOYOP

TooStubborn,

I am really glad that you and Don worked things out. That says alot about both of you.

Keep at it.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^lol, I was thinking of using the butane torch that I've been using to try to eliminate the black widow infestation of the neighborhood with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just got the ebay product in as well that was talked about a few pages back. Its interesting, no smell, but no aluminum either. Almost like duct tape, over rubber.


very interesting


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Got Cascade Vmax in today. If anyone has a sample, no matter how small, I would really like to get some more in to verify some things. Anything around 1"x1" or bigger. 

I measured the sample I got, the total thickness is right on spec, at 60mil. The aluminum thickness is way off. They claim that it is anodized 4mil aluminum, the sample I got is not anodized, but has a plastic layer, similar to the stuff on KnuKonceptz product. It burns off the same, and but seems thicker than the stuff on the Knu products. With the plastic still on, it measures 5mil thick, without it its down to about 2mil MAX, with some spots much less. Weight is right on spec.


----------



## SkipNJ

Hey glad you got the VMax I sent, and wanted to reiterate that I picked it up open box on the classifieds here. I will be pissed if it isn't really VMax, but it did come in a V-MAXSP box, the sheets were the right size, and I havent installed any yet, so I didn't have any reason to suspect it wasnt authentic.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I honestly don't suspect that it isn't authentic either. Cascade claims that their product is anodized. However, cascade's picture on their own website does not appear anodized. There are ripples visible in the black finish, as there are in the product you sent, which would not be present in an anodized product. 

http://cascadeaudio.com/car_noise_control/art/product/v-max-lg.jpg

I need to get some more in, I'm going to weigh the options next week. They want $32 for the smallest amount that they sell. I'm going to call parts express monday, and see if they can help out.


----------



## mark620

Just curious if anyone has used the gmat quadro yet?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Results for it will be up tonight.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GTMat Quadro

ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS

Total Thickness - 320mil

Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil

0.76 lbs per square foot

Notes - This is a unique product, 60mil layer of butyl, 4mil layer of aluminum, 60mil layer of butyl, and 3/16th inch of foam. The foam appears to be a semi-closed cell. I will try running water through it, and see what happens. 

Bare Metal Frequency Response


Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response


Bare Metal Waterfall


Damped Metal Waterfall



From an objective perspective, it does work better than GTMat Onyx. However, from a purely objective standpoint, based on the measurements I have made, it is still near the bottom of the list. The only butyl that performs worse, in the vibration testing I've done, is Onyx. The next worse butyl product performed more than twice as well (a toss up between Stinger Roadkill Expert and Raamat BXT2).


----------



## Second Skin

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> STP-Atlantic Gold
> 
> Actual Measurements
> 
> Total Thickness - 85mil
> 
> Constraining Layer Thickness - 4mil
> 
> 0.85 lbs per square foot
> 
> Notes - Very clean removal, just like STP-Bomb in that respect. Overall well performing.
> 
> Bare Metal Frequency Response
> 
> 
> Damped Metal Frequency Response
> 
> 
> Overlay of Undamped Metal vs Damped Metal Frequency Response
> 
> 
> Bare Metal Waterfall
> 
> 
> Damped Metal Waterfall


A thought occurred;

Have you(or anyone) performed any temperature tests on this product? It seems to perform similar to ours at room temperature, but a product's effect will vary greatly between 60 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Many places exceed these temperatures for a good portion of the year in winter and summer.


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## rton20s

Second Skin, not to speak out of turn, but there is a form of temperature testing planned. This is not slated to be frequency response testing at varying temperatures for this round of testing. This will be a "heat to failure" type test for adhesion, if I am not mistaken. (First to a specific temperature, based on his measured firewall temp, and then to 400 degrees F.) TSTF went into a small amount of detail on this a few posts back. 

Also, as I understand it, he plans to do additional testing in the future with an all new test rig. The new test rig would provide even greater isolation from ambient sound and temperature. It will also allow him to test a sample in varying temperatures as well. This second round of testing is still in the "napkin sketch" phase currently.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Rton is right on the money. Unfortunately for this test set-up, its not possible to test for vibration at multiple temps (at least not without increasing and decreasing the temp of the whole house). I really hate that I can't add this in, but as such, I've stated a few times that this testing is therefore limited, and is more about general learning on the subject. When I post a final results thread, it will be forwarded with a very specific explanation of the limits and uses for the testing done here. 

I did choose 77 degrees for a specific reason however. I've noticed in ASTM-756 testing, that all products seem to work best around 68 degrees. That said, some of them fall off rather rapidly above that, while some maintain composure. I wanted to test higher than 68 degrees, as it will hopefully give a better idea of pointing out products that fall off rapidly.

Heat testing will be done in two stages for each product. The first, will be a 20 minute test at 250 degrees. I chose this temperature after measuring the temp of my cars firewall, and rounding up. My wifes civic had a high temp of about 150 degress on the firewall. My car had a high temp of 215. However, I know some cars can get hotter than that (the srt-4 is basically my car, with a turbo up against the firewall). So the first test will be at 250. Anything that fails to stay adhered to a vertical surface in that test, will fail all heat testing. I am doing this because when I deadened my neon, the stock "deadening" had melted off, and was a dried out lump of asphalt at the bottom of my firewall.

The second set of testing will be absolute failure testing. The oven will be set to 450 degrees, and products will be timed until they begin to lose adhesion. 

I have a feeling that products that do better in this heat testing, will likely damp better at higher temps as well, due to better thermal stability, but as I can't currently prove it, I'm going to leave it at that.


The next round of testing will have to wait until I have the financial ability to put everything together. Like Rton suggested, I will be able to test a lot more. I should be able to test at any temp between 50-100 degrees, test multiple thicknesses of metal to get an idea of how the products work with different material thicknesses and resonant properties, as well as testing for differences in vibration after the product has been adhered for a period of time. This is important, as some products have a very obvious increase in adhesion after time, vs after immediate application. The next set-up will also be as completely as possible isolated and insulated from the outside world, giving a much better signal to noise ratio. That set-up is currently in design phase, and should be in the budget planning phase within the next week or so.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, here is an update on Cascade Vmax.

I spoke with Paul from Cascade today, and he confirmed that the sample sent to me, and the product that Skip bought used, should be legit product. They are aware of the difference in constraining layer. At some point, they changed to the 2mil aluminum, 3mil plastic coating purposely. They believe that the product actually performed better with this layout. That said, he said that they can no longer get the 2mil thick/3mil plastic layer anymore, and that they are going back to an un-anodized 4mil thick aluminum layer. 

He is also getting together a sample package, so I will be able to test the new Vmax and compare it to the old, along with their vinyl products.


----------



## james2266

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ok, here is an update on Cascade Vmax.
> 
> I spoke with Paul from Cascade today, and he confirmed that the sample sent to me, and the product that Skip bought used, should be legit product. They are aware of the difference in constraining layer. At some point, they changed to the 2mil aluminum, 3mil plastic coating purposely. They believe that the product actually performed better with this layout. That said, he said that they can no longer get the 2mil thick/3mil plastic layer anymore, and that they are going back to an un-anodized 4mil thick aluminum layer.
> 
> He is also getting together a sample package, so I will be able to test the new Vmax and compare it to the old, along with their vinyl products.


Glad to hear Cascade is coming through for you. I wish I could have sent you the VB2 sample I have but as you mentioned earlier, shipping is pretty stiff up here. I have never tried the Vmax but the vb2 seemed to do fairly well in my last 2 vehicles. I used Alphadamp mainly on this current one. I was told you need 100% coverage for the vb2 to get the same effect as about 25-50% coverage of an Alphadamp like product. The vb2's best savings I have been told are ease of installation (no more butchered hands) and weight added. Curious how it performs in your tests.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I am as well. I talked with Paul from Cascade for a good half hour, and came up with a few more installation techniques to try. Nothing I hadn't seen before, but things I hadn't remembered to try.


----------



## trabadoor22

Thanks for doing this test, it is very much appreciated. One thing I did want to say though after briefly looking at this thread is that for me it is difficult to sift through the graphed results and what they might mean. Have you come to any conclusions as to any winners so far or are you waiting until all testing is done before you release your findings?


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## rton20s

Glad to here Cascade is coming through. 

Also, I saw a post on the Sonic Electronix FB page regarding sound deadener installation and replied with a link to this thread asking if they wanted to participate with product. (Assuming NVX CLD, given their apparent connection.) Who ever handles their FB page said they would look into it and thanked me for pointing them to this thread. 

Also, I posted initially because the discussion was quickly turning to peal and seal.


----------



## rton20s

trabadoor22 said:


> Thanks for doing this test, it is very much appreciated. One thing I did want to say though after briefly looking at this thread is that for me it is difficult to sift through the graphed results and what they might mean. Have you come to any conclusions as to any winners so far or are you waiting until all testing is done before you release your findings?


If you read through the whole thread, Chris has posted some of his impressions so far. He has also stated that when all of the testing is complete, he will start a new "results" thread for easier digestion.


----------



## Beckerson1

trabadoor22 said:


> Thanks for doing this test, it is very much appreciated. One thing I did want to say though after briefly looking at this thread is that for me it is difficult to sift through the graphed results and what they might mean. Have you come to any conclusions as to any winners so far or are you waiting until all testing is done before you release your findings?


Once all testing is done he will post a cleaner thread. He will explain what to look for as far as what the results show.


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## trabadoor22

Good to hear and thanks again to everyone involved.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks for contacting them Dustin. I'm getting ready to run some more tests tonight. I need to finish all vibration testing by mid october, since I go on vacation the last week, and want to take a short break before starting work on the finished results.


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## samual

Thank you. Very useful thread!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm on my phone so I can't really link to previous pages, but I cut the ebay product mentioned a few pages back today.

It is a butyl/asphalt mix, definitely not pure butyl. It also does have a layer of aluminum above the butyl/asphalt mix, followed by what looks like a nylon crosshatch reinforcement (think duct tape), followed by a clear plastic layer. I'll get it tested this weekend. I've tested a number of products in the last few days, I just haven't had enough time to post them up. It actually takes just as long to post them up as it does to measure. It looks like the testing should round out at 34 products. At about 3 pages per product, plus an introduction, spreadsheet, table of contents, etc, the final results are likely going to be around 120 pages.


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## Beckerson1

Hell ya. I love reading


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> nts, etc, the final results are likely going to be around 120 pages.


That's it?


----------



## abusiveDAD

stubborn

sent you a pm

thanks


----------



## Beckerson1

The next round of testing stubborn maybe you could look at those liquid deadeners. For example:

Spectrum from SS.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^I had really wanted to do that, but struggled with a way to remove it afterwards without damaging the metal. I will likely do one product at the end, likely a spray on undercoating, since a lot of people at other places have claimed that it works just as well or better than specific dampers. 

Got a good idea of the accuracy of the testing, I'll likely try to get everything I've done in the last few days up on weds, as it will be under the testing temp on weds. Thurs I have to take my mom to Sacramento for a doc appt, then friday I'll be testing again. There were also some pretty big shakeups near the top of the list this weekend, and likely to see some more over the next two days of testing.


----------



## rdubbs

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> There were also some pretty big shakeups near the top of the list this weekend, and likely to see some more over the next two days of testing.



:uhoh2: Can't wait to see what the shakeup is!


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^I had really wanted to do that, but struggled with a way to remove it afterwards without damaging the metal. I will likely do one product at the end, likely a spray on undercoating, since a lot of people at other places have claimed that it works just as well or better than specific dampers.
> 
> Got a good idea of the accuracy of the testing, I'll likely try to get everything I've done in the last few days up on weds, as it will be under the testing temp on weds. Thurs I have to take my mom to Sacramento for a doc appt, then friday I'll be testing again. There were also some pretty big shakeups near the top of the list this weekend, and likely to see some more over the next two days of testing.


Awesome


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So I had this all typed out last night, but lost it, and it was too late to re-type it.
> 
> My biggest concern with the release of results before having time to go over it all, was the possible misunderstanding of the results, and then, the possible use of the results to falsely claim that they objectively prove something that they in fact, do not. This came to light with the 25% vs 100% testing, where people used the improvement seen to justify using 100% (or more) coverage. But when you really look at the results, they clearly show hugely diminished returns by 100% coverage, gaining a performing 160% as well as 25% coverage, for 400% the cost, and that's ignoring that it does almost nothing at higher frequencies. This is where Don's post's came from, and I understand them after talking with him more on the subject. It seems that he has also gone down this path, with similar testing, and didn't feel comfortable releasing anything for these reasons.
> 
> I really had wanted to wait to release the info, until everything was finished, but ultimately, I caved in because this testing wouldn't be possible for me without the help I received from people on this forum. So, in the future, I will continue to release as I test, but I will be trying to better explain what the results show.
> 
> 
> 
> On another note, I got Silent Coat products in friday. I cut them monday, and that's where I ran into problems. They are the first product I have been unable to successfully use the die to cut. It is pulling apart the aluminum at the corners and edges. I cut other products afterwards, and they cut perfectly. I am going to test the samples that were damaged anyways, and then cut some with scissors, and test them as well. But there will have to be an asterisk next to the results, as its not quite the same as the others.
> 
> Damage to the multilayer product. This is a butyl, bitmen, and mastic product. It also smells heavily of heavy duty petroleum grease, like that used in heavy equipement. Its also a similar red in color as said grease.
> 
> 
> This is their 4mm product, a butyl and mastic product.
> 
> 
> And this is their 2mm product, a butyl and mastic product.
> 
> 
> And this is the current test pile. At least one sample of all untested products, and several samples of already tested products for consistency testing. There will be more too.


Is there a brand name in the alu? if not than you might have old stock... 

We use new stock in our shop and there's Silent coat pressed in the alu layer..


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## Hanatsu

Woosey said:


> Is there a brand name in the alu? if not than you might have old stock...
> 
> We use new stock in our shop and there's Silent coat pressed in the alu layer..


Mine looks the same as yours. Might be an european version, idk.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No brand name in any of the Silent Coat product. The product I received came directly from the company owner. He also sent me a copy of the results from fmvss 302 testing (flammability testing for use in a car, all products tested passed).

That said, my tests of the shown pieces went very well for the 4mm product and the 5mm composite layer product. The 2mm product didn't do nessesarily bad, but it did significantly shift the resonant frequency so that it is above the metal plot at the new resonant frequency. This could cause as issue if you have something in your car already exciting panels at that freqency. I want to wait to post the silent coat plots until I can determine if the tears are do anything to the performance.


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## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> No brand name in any of the Silent Coat product. The product I received came directly from the company owner. He also sent me a copy of the results from fmvss 302 testing (flammability testing for use in a car, all products tested passed).
> 
> That said, my tests of the shown pieces went very well for the 4mm product and the 5mm composite layer product. The 2mm product didn't do nessesarily bad, but it did significantly shift the resonant frequency so that it is above the metal plot at the new resonant frequency. This could cause as issue if you have something in your car already exciting panels at that freqency. I want to wait to post the silent coat plots until I can determine if the tears are do anything to the performance.


Did you try to die em out reversed? maybe an option..


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sometime today, ill get the results up for murdermat mdk and bl, raamat, vizomat, and sounddeadenershowdown. I just can't promise when.

Each murdermat product was tested 4 times, mdk was very consistent, bl was less so. Raamat was middle of the road consistency, but only had two samples. Vizomat only had one sample, so it will have to do. I've tested sds 3 times, with pretty good consistency (in fact, the two tests I did yesturday were about as perfect of a match as it can get).


I'm working on pricing out the next phase of testing as well, as its too cool to test today. Nothing to get excited over, just working on a general idea of the total costs involved in going much more in depth. As of now, I'd estimate a total of $6-700 went into this round of testing, between the setup, and sample donations. I want to express that I am very grateful for all who donated financially, donated materials, and donated time helping to make sure this worked out the way it did.


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## rton20s

Thanks for the update, and thank you for your efforts. I'll second the thank you for all those that donated materials and cash. 

Also, I know it isn't conducive to testing, but thank God for the cooler weather! So nice here today.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*STP Vizomat*

This is a stock replacement type sound damper. Not a constrained layer, just asphalt.

80mil Total Thickness

0.76 lbs per square foot

This product was temperamental. It cracked in two places when removing the backing paper. This may or may not have affected the performance, but there wasn't anything I could do. That said, this test has an asterisk on it. It also was attached by glue. It was very difficult to remove.



The peak resonance reduction was 3db. The resonant frequency shifted lower by 17.34hz.

Undamped waterfall


Damped waterfall


The bare metal decayed 6.07db at 100ms after the initial impulse. The damped metal decayed 8.66db at 100ms after the initial impulse. 

All in all, this is near the bottom of the list. Also, notice the large peak in the treated response that could easily be excited by something (like the exhaust) that wasn't being excited by it without the product, due to the frequency shift.


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## itjobhunter

Great work on the project TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL! Any chance of having a single post with the products tested in results order? It would be cool to see the ranking and a quick look at products tested/not tested. Also, what is the consensus with using paints or coatings? How do they compare??

Keep rockin', I'm loving the thread!


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## rton20s

I know it is a lot to read, but he has stated that there will be a new results thread once everything is tested.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There will be a final results thread. I have about 2 weeks of testing left, then putting the results together.

It doesn't look like cascade will be sending anything for the testing. The engineer I talked to seemed very excited about the testing, but that was two weeks ago, and an email I sent earlier this week went unanswered. I'll have to look for some of their new products.


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## foscoe944

I’m new to this forum and this is my first post. This is a great thread, I can’t wait to see the results!

OP, I don’t see B-Quiet Extreme on your list. I have some left over and I’d be happy to send some to you if you want to include it.


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## Darth SQ

2STF,
Might I suggest one more final test.
How about taking one square of cld exactly like you have done before and then cover the entire plate with ccf and of course mlv on top of that and see what the results look like when all three layers are applied?
Since this is the generally accepted form of proper sound deadening, it would be at minimum an interesting test.

Maybe use SDS's product?
Or I can supply you with a sheet of Alpha Damp cld and a sheet of Luxury Liner Pro if you desire.
Thanks again for all your efforts in this lengthy but informative endeavor. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I do have b-quiet extreme, thanks for offering.

PPI, I do plan on doing something along those very lines, as an added, just to see kind of test. 


I've been working on this silently as time has been limited, surgery dates have moved up for my mom, so I've been dealing with that. Four neck vertebrae have to be fused, followed by a knee replacement early next year. I'm hoping to have the whole test and results done before thanksgiving.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just wanted to update on Cascade, they did end up sending both Vmax and VB-2HD afterall (and quite a large amount of it). This is the new vmax, so I can directly compare it to the old vmax. I want to apologize to Paul, as he seemed very enthusiastic about it, so I could only assume that after running it by the bosses, maybe they had said no.


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## rton20s

Very cool that they ended up coming through.


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## 69Voltage

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Just wanted to update on Cascade, they did end up sending both Vmax and VB-2HD afterall (and quite a large amount of it). This is the new vmax, so I can directly compare it to the old vmax. I want to apologize to Paul, as he seemed very enthusiastic about it, so I could only assume that after running it by the bosses, maybe they had said no.


,

Nice, as I'm planning on using both of those products.


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## BevoBlitzN

Can't wait for the final results. I've pushed my new build back until the final numbers come in. Thanks for the hard work.


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## SkipNJ

Yeah I want to use the VB-2HD as well, even just as a barrier layer, and to seal up the doors.


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## jeancwb

Hi,

May I suggest one test to compare the results? 
Can you put a sheet of lead as a sound deadener? 
I always heard that lead is the best sound deadener.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I may be able to run a test like that. What are people adhering lead sheet with though? And what thickness? I know that 15mil lead sheet is 1lbs per square foot. 

Keep in mind, I would expect a lowering of the resonant frequency, but I don't believe that it would lower the amplitude the way the good constrained layer dampers do.


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## minbari

not to mention the health hazards of being encased in lead.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I don't know if the health hazards would outweigh those already present when in a car, between the plastic outgassing, exhaust fumes, etc. Unless you breathe lead in dust form, I don't believe it can hurt you in an airborne manner. Of course if there's a fire, that could be an issue, but then you have bigger problems.

I know cascade sells a mass loaded barrier with 15mil lead as the barrier, sandwiched between two ccf layers. I don't think it requires a msds sheet because in the way its meant to be used, there isn't enough of a hazard.


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## minbari

they might not supply one, but if it contains a hazardous material it requires an MSDS. if it is encased in vinyl then it will certainly mitigate the risk. 

bare lead on the other hand, not in my car. outgasing and other things are a risk too, but they dont stay in your system. lead never goes away and it is cumulative. virbration an air currents will put it in the air. I know what lead does to you, and working in the electronics industry I get exposed enough, lol.

when you have other products like CLD and MLV (that are mass loaded with things other than lead) why take the risk?


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## rton20s

minbari said:


> when you have other products like CLD and MLV (that are mass loaded with things other than lead) why take the risk?


'cause the Dee Bees yo!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I agree on that, bare lead wouldn't go in my car either.

As for reasons vs MLV, the main one is space. It is significantly thinner, and its much more conformable. With MLV, you need a fully overlapped patchwork to cover complex shapes, while something like cascades VB-3 can be draped over complex shapes easily.


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## jeancwb

Sorry for the idea! 
People who work with X-ray are constantly using lead in walls and special clothes without any problem. Old houses were painted using lead based paint. I think the lead causes problem only in dust form and air current can't remove it from a bare just blowing on it. 

But in this case, for a test purpose only, could be an option, or make the test using some steel
Sheet or something close to lead properties.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No apologies needed. 

I'm going to take about a week off. I'm on vacation this week, and planned on finishing testing this week when we got back in town, but on the way out of town today, we were in a wreck totaling my wife's car. So, I'll be taking a week off.


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## SPLEclipse

Oh No! Hope you guys are OK. Get yourself some rest, and thanks again for all this info! It's going to be invaluable when I redo my midbass next year.


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> No apologies needed.
> 
> I'm going to take about a week off. I'm on vacation this week, and planned on finishing testing this week when we got back in town, but on the way out of town today, we were in a wreck totaling my wife's car. So, I'll be taking a week off.


Dang man! Sorry to hear. Is everyone ok? If you need anything, let me know.


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## Kevin K

Sorry to hear about the accident, hope and pray nobody was hurt.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Aside from some glass in my leg and eye, and a sore neck, I'm ok. My wife's neck and shoulder are a little sore, but no worse than getting a bad nights sleep. Sister in law has a small cut and bruise on her arm and head, and her bf has a small cut and slightly sore neck. Honestly, it should have been much worse. I took the brunt of it, the wheel of the truck went right over my head and over most of the roof on my side. Had my wife and I not steered it to my side, it would have been much worse.

I may post some pics later on, after everything is dealt with. Its ugly. In my neon, I would have likely been dead.


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## rton20s

Wow. Where did the accident take place? Were you still in town?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

FWY 99 in Delano. Headed to Vegas, wife's sister got a raise and was taking us there for our anniversary and hers. Were going anyways, they rented a car this morning. Nothing we can do until insurance gets back to us and we get the report, and since were all pretty much ok, might as well go anyways.


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## rton20s

I'd say you need a break after the ordeal anyway! Have fun, and let me know if you need any help with the testing when you get back.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks Dustin. I'll let you know when I'm ready to finish. I'll be off most of next week for my moms surgery, so I may finish testing then since she'll be staying here.


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## Serieus

enjoy your vacation, glad you guys are okay! looking forward to final results for this testing, should be done before i'm ready to start work on the new car


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## copperears

> I may be able to run a test like that. What are people adhering lead sheet with though? And what thickness? I know that 15mil lead sheet is 1lbs per square foot.
> 
> Keep in mind, I would expect a lowering of the resonant frequency, but I don't believe that it would lower the amplitude the way the good constrained layer dampers do.



Glad to hear there were no major injuries, wow! It's a reminder like this when one is contemplating nibbling away at the structure of your vehicle (A-pillar), etc., for just a little more clearance or a larger vent.

I use polyurethane construction adhesive to adhere the lead to enclosures. I have checked on speakers that were built 5 years ago and they are still rock solid. I use lead flashing that comes in a roll, all the time in speakers. I wear gloves when handling it and cut it with a utility knife. After the glue dries, I cover the lead with 2 layers of butyl window flashing. It seems reasonably safe with this method. I then cover it with soundboard if the surfaces are flat. Lead conforms to about any shape and I think its hard to beat, other than the weight. I don't have any measurements to back this up but I would be quite curios. Have also used lead bird shot in double wall enclosures with great results, for home audio.

I don't have a picture hosting site, can't figure out how to add a picture into a post.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I said I would post a couple pics. So here they are.


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## Beckerson1

Glad everyone is OK. Civics are solid cars and that one did its job.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

It really did. I have to think that if we had been in my neon, I would be dead. I think the shape of the car helped the truck climb up and over dissipating the energy better than if we had just plowed into it.

Dodge ram stopped on the freeway for a dog. Combined with first rain of the season, literally brand new tires, and no brake lights on the truck.


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## NoAudioFile

That civic didn't do it's job very well. Glad you're ok though.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm very curious how you came to that conclusion. Considering, this was a freeway speed wreck, everyone got up and walked away. No one was sore for more than a day. Aside from a bruise on my sister in laws arm, I had the only other "injuries", which were limited to a small piece of glass in my eye, and some small cuts on my leg from the glass splinters when my leg swung forward and hit the glove box (had I closed my eyes during the crash, and had been wearing pants like everyone else, even those would have been avoided).

For comparison, in my neon, I would have been dead, and everyone else would have been worse off. In my wife's old mustang, I would have been dead and everyone would have been worse off. In a car with a taller, blunter nose, forward energy would have been stopped more quickly leading to a risk of more injuries. While my wife, sister in law and her boyfriend were siting in the back of the chp car (it was pouring rain, he drove them to a local starbucks, I rode in the tow truck), two other wrecks came in over the radio. Another involving a dog in the road. And a undercover chp hit a civic. Ambulances were needed in both of those wrecks.


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## Second Skin

Very sorry about the accident. I'm glad that no one was badly injured.


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## Beckerson1

NoAudioFile said:


> That civic didn't do it's job very well. Glad you're ok though.


Civic or not. Any serious accident (this classifies) that you, or anyone can walk away from with minor injuries is a plus in my book. Vehicles are designed to crumple like tin cans but they (the engineers who designed the vehicle) have one goal in mind. Keep the occupants safe.

A month ago I was returning from a week long training class for work. There was an accident which a truck going westbound lost a tire (keep in mind going at least 70+ mph) and a compact car (can't remember make or model) going eastbound was unfortunate enough to hit this tire (keep in mind a 50ish pound object moving 70+mph hitting a car going 70+mph in the opposite direction). Needless to say taking out the front end damage in the pics above thats what the car looked like. Initial impact was right between the driver and passenger (right around the upper portion of the vehicles windshield.


----------



## NoAudioFile

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm very curious how you came to that conclusion. Considering, this was a freeway speed wreck, everyone got up and walked away. No one was sore for more than a day. Aside from a bruise on my sister in laws arm, I had the only other "injuries", which were limited to a small piece of glass in my eye, and some small cuts on my leg from the glass splinters when my leg swung forward and hit the glove box (had I closed my eyes during the crash, and had been wearing pants like everyone else, even those would have been avoided).
> 
> For comparison, in my neon, I would have been dead, and everyone else would have been worse off. In my wife's old mustang, I would have been dead and everyone would have been worse off. In a car with a taller, blunter nose, forward energy would have been stopped more quickly leading to a risk of more injuries. While my wife, sister in law and her boyfriend were siting in the back of the chp car (it was pouring rain, he drove them to a local starbucks, I rode in the tow truck), two other wrecks came in over the radio. Another involving a dog in the road. And a undercover chp hit a civic. Ambulances were needed in both of those wrecks.


Agreed, in the neon you might have been worse off. However, as you can see the the truck went on top of your roof. The impact beam did not crumple, nor did the the crumple zones by the fenders. If it did what it was meant to do, the collision should have crumple the beam, fender area like an accordion therefore dissipating the force to you and your passengers (causing less damage to the occupants). The monocoque (cabin area) a-pillar would be intact and would/should not cause the windshield to shatter and get caught in your eye if that was where the glass was coming from but it could've been glass from the sunroof or driver side window. 2006 Honda Civic Crash Test - YouTube good visual what it was suppose to do.

Sorry did not mean to offend you. Just an opinion by looking at the pictures.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No offense, I was just curious.

I can agree with that entirely, except for when looking at how the accident took place. The truck was significantly higher than the front of the car. The bumper was mid hood level. So there was nothing solid to hit the bumper and crumple it. The only thing that hit the impact beam was the trucks tire, which was tall enough to climb up over it. We actually steered over to my side because it would have been worse hitting it dead on in the middle. In the end, the accident was very smooth, not even enough impact to deploy the airbags. 

In the video, that crash has far, far worse results than we had. They came to a stop much quicker, and had much more impact. The truck we hit was at least a foot higher than the object in the video. When we hit, I wasn't wearing my seat belt correctly (I had leaned all the way to to drivers side to make sure the car was pointed towards my side), yet I didn't hit the dash. That's how little "impact" there actually was. I say that the car did its job because the truck climbed up over the roof, and the roof stayed intact, to the point where both doors opened. My side only binds on the front fender.

That said, I would expect the car to behave like the one in the video, had we had a car, or something much lower. Looking at that video, I'm even more glad we didn't.


----------



## derek0606

Keep up the good work! I'm still in for the conclusion when all testing is done. I have read the whole thread and I hope all is well with you. By the way, people like this is what makes these forum's worth poking around.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks. Probably another 3 weeks and I'll get back to it and finish. Just dealing with insurance/crooks/same thing.


----------



## GLN305

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks. Probably another 3 weeks and I'll get back to it and finish. Just dealing with insurance/crooks/same thing.


We definitely appreciate all the work and endless time you've put into this. Many Thanks! Thank you and have a great turkey day!


----------



## derek0606

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks. Probably another 3 weeks and I'll get back to it and finish. Just dealing with insurance/crooks/same thing.


I know what you mean; I fought with a insurance company to get my BMW fixed for a YEAR! It wasn't a fun time in life for me. In Texas, we have a Department of Insurance that is state enforced to help keep insurance companies honest. My insurance company at the time bent over when i asked after i made a phone call to the TDOI.


----------



## derek0606

I just showed this thread to a friend of mine and he mentioned a local company here. I'm working on getting you samples when or if you are back to testing. I say if, because, I don't know if you wanted to take on any new products. 

The website is not complete but they are a new company and the amps have proven their quality through a Steve Meade video review. Some name changes have been made but I think they are going by CT Sounds now.
Sound Deadening and Car Audio Wiring by Audio Technix - #1 Dynamat Sound Deadener Replacement!


----------



## SC400GUY

So where are the test results?


----------



## rton20s

There is a lot of raw data from the testing throughout the thread. Toostubborn has had a lot going on personally that has slowed down the testing a bit. I know he has gotten some additional products and plans to resume testing soon. You can probably expect a results/conclusions thread after the first of the year.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep. Sorry, had quite a few things go down. Mother in law had surgury, week later my wife and I, her sister and sisters bf were in an accident that totaled my wifes car, week after that my mom had her neck fused, and the week after that my sister in law had surgury. We just settled with insurance, and are taking a 3 hour drive sat to order the new car.

Testing will resume after Xmas. I did add Blackhole Tile to the list, and may be able to get some Focal Bam. 

If you want any info about the already tested products, just ask.


----------



## 07azhhr

It sounds like everyone is/will be ok and that is the important part. Take care of the personal stuff. We all can wait.


----------



## rdubbs

07azhhr said:


> It sounds like everyone is/will be ok and that is the important part. Take care of the personal stuff. We all can wait.


Agreed! For those that haven't seen your other posts in other Sound deadening threads, you've found that Murdermat MDK is a really great product for it's price point, but please don't rush the results! Take your time as all of us appreciate everything you've done this far, and everything you will continue to do on your own time when you're ready!


----------



## sbeezy

@too stubborn i went to order some MM MDK today and they said it has a 3month customs hold on it Meh... But I will order 80sqft of Audiotechnix 60mil going to go drive to H-town to pick it up saturday if I dont' have to work and possibly put my T1000-4ad on his amp dyno:laugh:, hopefully with the MLV from don it does what I need it to do...


----------



## derek0606

sbeezy said:


> @too stubborn i went to order some MM MDK today and they said it has a 3month customs hold on it Meh... But I will order 80sqft of Audiotechnix 60mil going to go drive to H-town to pick it up saturday if I dont' have to work and possibly put my T1000-4ad on his amp dyno:laugh:, hopefully with the MLV from don it does what I need it to do...


I guess I'm off the hook then! A friend of mine knows the owner which I believe owns CT-Sounds as well. They have some solid products and I plan to do the same combo (AudioTechnix, CCF, SDS MLV). If you don't make it this weekend; let me know because I was planning to head there sometime next week and buy some for testing.

Ask him about the guys trail blazer they tore up at a competition... His car wasn't drivable so they took his setup and put it in my friends car. Broke clips in the door panels and a window wont stay up without duct tape!


----------



## sbeezy

I will assume they broke the window mech and door clips from bass!


----------



## derek0606

sbeezy said:


> I will assume they broke the window mech and door clips from bass!


:rockon: But of course.


----------



## SC400GUY

I'm curious in your opinion how Dynamat Extreme compares vs Second Skin's Damplifier/Damplifer Pro.


----------



## subwoofery

SC400GUY said:


> I'm curious in your opinion how Dynamat Extreme compares vs Second Skin's Damplifier/Damplifer Pro.


You won't get much reply to your question, especially since you're on DIYMA. 

Please try to learn how to read the test that was conducted. Then ask question about what you do or don't understand. 

Kelvin


----------



## Alrojoca

SC400GUY said:


> I'm curious in your opinion how Dynamat Extreme compares vs Second Skin's Damplifier/Damplifer Pro.


Most tests and graphs are in between pages 9 -15.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

SC400GUY said:


> I'm curious in your opinion how Dynamat Extreme compares vs Second Skin's Damplifier/Damplifer Pro.


They are extremely close, but statistically in my testing Dynamat edges out Damp Pro, damping performance wise.

They are very, very close however. Personally, Damp Pro is a little cleaner to work with. Both are difficult to remove. Xtreme is a tad bit lighter. 

If you are only considering those two, I would decide which of the things I mentioned matter to you, if none of them are deal breakers, go with what you can get cheaper. 

If you are open to other options, there are better performing products, for less money.


----------



## casey

whats your first choice for damping so far? It looks like sds comes out on top but then again I am not an expert or anywhere close.


----------



## derek0606

I made a spreadsheet with all the test data and pricing/weight comparisons... If anyone wants it.


----------



## rton20s

Even though the testing isn't complete, I would certainly like to see the spread sheet you have developed. I'll PM you my email.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Everyone keep in mind, I've done multiple tests, that aren't all posted here, with almost all materials. That said, as of now, the top 3, in the order that I would put them in......

SDS Tiles

Murdermat MDK

KnuKoncepts Kolossus


There are others that perform better in terms of damping performance in my specific tests, but have been left off the list due to low operating temps. STP-Bomb, and the products from Silent Coat all perform well, but all have asphalt, and significantly lower temp ratings than the 3 listed above. 


I'm also going to go out on a limb. I can't prove what I'm about to say, but I believe it fully. I believe that the products with the highest heat tolerance, will also damp vibration at higher temperatures the best, as they will be more stable at higher temperatures. Eventually, I would like to test this as well, but the test rig is going to cost over a grand.


----------



## Alrojoca

The dynamat is sticky, I would not say difficult to remove maybe just the start but slowly most of it comes off. I did hear that the SS removes completely clean without leaving residue, less sticky, same thing maybe just the start is difficult once it is done slowly it comes off. Many others will get destroyed in the removal process, the SDS, alpha D maybe similar to SS as far as removal, I can't confirm that, I am just going by what I read maybe I am wrong. 

The Kolosus and M M may be better but are almost twice as heavy also. the SDS is not light either. Again I may be wrong just going by what I remember reading here between the lines.


----------



## spl152db

the way i've always understood it is that initial stickiness is low while long term contact is higher and impossible to remove later. 

plus you want the density to be high and a stiff backing to be the most effective.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've found that density is almost irrelevant, as is backing stiffness past a certain point. Look at sds tiles vs murdermat mdk amd kolossus, both kolossus and mdk have a 4mil layer of aluminum, and sds has an 8mil thick layer, but they perform so close that its almost negligible at room temps. At the same time, you have dynamat xtreme that weighs about half of what stinger roadkill expert does, but it performs MUCH better.


----------



## derek0606

Trying not to muddy the thread up but here is what I produced to pull all this together and pass around.

OP I can replace the picture with a link if you want.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can't fully respond until tomorrow, but some of the specifications listed above are off. Also, fatmat=peel n seal. I can't prove it with a mass spectrograph analysis, but it weighs the same, has the same aluminum layer and thickness, the same plastic layer between the aluminum and damping compound, and performs the same.


----------



## Golden Ear

Hi Chris! I finally found this thread. Gonna read thru it but wanted to get subd for updates. Thanks for what you're doing here and sharing the results with all of us. I haven't done any deadening in my truck yet so this is going to be a very valuable thread for me. Thanks again, and it was nice to meet you at the gtg.


----------



## derek0606

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can't fully respond until tomorrow, but some of the specifications listed above are off. Also, fatmat=peel n seal. I can't prove it with a mass spectrograph analysis, but it weighs the same, has the same aluminum layer and thickness, the same plastic layer between the aluminum and damping compound, and performs the same.


Separate names, so I'll keep them separate for now. Not trying to disagree but for the sake of simplicity; the spreadsheet will give everyone the information to make their own assumptions.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No, definitely keep them separate, just letting you know the specs are the same as far as weight and thickness/aluminum thickness. Also, ill update tomorrow. For instance kolossus is advertised at 10mil for the aluminum layer, but actually has a 4mil aluminum layer and 3mil plastic layer. There are a bunch of others, just can't do them right now, at the er with my wife.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> No, definitely keep them separate, just letting you know the specs are the same as far as weight and thickness/aluminum thickness. Also, ill update tomorrow. For instance kolossus is advertised at 10mil for the aluminum layer, but actually has a 4mil aluminum layer and 3mil plastic layer. There are a bunch of others, just can't do them right now, at the er with my wife.


She ok?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Kevin K

At the ER? That's not good. Praying for you guys.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> No, definitely keep them separate, just letting you know the specs are the same as far as weight and thickness/aluminum thickness. Also, ill update tomorrow. For instance kolossus is advertised at 10mil for the aluminum layer, but actually has a 4mil aluminum layer and 3mil plastic layer. There are a bunch of others, just can't do them right now, at the er with my wife.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can't fully respond until tomorrow, but some of the specifications listed above are off. Also, fatmat=peel n seal. I can't prove it with a mass spectrograph analysis, but it weighs the same, has the same aluminum layer and thickness, the same plastic layer between the aluminum and damping compound, and performs the same.


In other words, if you are bound and determined to use a CLD that has little to no affect on vibration dampening, go ahead and pick up the Peel n Seal because it is cheaper. 

Also, Chris I shot you a text about your wife.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys. About to head out and pick up some prescriptions, later today I'll update with all the specs for the products in the spreadsheet.

My wifes doing ok right now, shes resting. During the summer, she hurt her back helping her sister move some stuff around her house, took about 2 months to heal, or so we thought. Last Friday, she reinjured it playing with our dog, just twisted wrong. It wasn't as bad as the first time, and it was getting better until Monday, when she hurt it again, just twisted the wrong way. This time she said it was as bad as the first time. On the way to Fresno yesterday afternoon for her dr apt, she couldn't sit straight in the car. Then last night, she twisted again, and at that point, she couldn't sit or lay without tearing up. She had already taken as much advil as she could, and had also taken nyquil because she was starting to get what I have been fighting for a week. So we made the decision to go in, because she couldn't really do anything but stand, and she couldn't do that all night. I wasn't really sure how much pain she was in until they took her BP, 160/100. I've never seen her BP over 115/70, and its normally around 105-110/65. They told her basically that she has a minor muscle tear in her lower back, and that she needs to rest in a position that doesn't pull on it so it can start to heal. 

Thank you guys for checking in. At this point it just seems she needs to let it heal, and then I need to help her work on strengthening it (which I need to do for myself anyways, turned 30 yesterday, so I'm officially old enough to race the vet class in motocross, not too happy about that lol).


----------



## papasin

Happy Birthday Chris! Ah, when I was 30...uh, never mind.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> Happy Birthday Chris! Ah, when I was 30...uh, never mind.


lol, my thoughts exactly.

I am glad it seems things are on the way to better for you and your wife Chris. I know all too well just how a 'minor muscle tear' in the lower back can absolutely debilitate someone. I had a co-worker with exactly that and she was off for the better part of 3 months. Yoga saved her life she says and is now a real good yoga instructor. My mother in law has had many similar issues and in Jan. has to go for a hip replacement. I sure hope that helps her get back to her normal self again. Painful to watch her even when she says she is feeling well.


----------



## derek0606

Went through back surgery a couple years ago.... I wouldn't wish the pain on my worst enemy! I'm glad to see she has a recovery plan.

Did you get a copy of the spreadsheet and did you want any features that I could work on. I do a little _macros_ scripting with visual basic so we can do some pretty wild stuff. I made a spreadsheet that calculates EQ Curve templates for REW. Thats just an example of what can be done to make this more interactive.

My thoughts would be to have either a side by side comparison or overlay of two products. PM me your thoughts and we can figure something out.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol Richard. Hopefully I'll feel a little younger as I get back into riding shape.

James, I had to convince her to go in. She hates medication, as do I, but not many choices in this case. Hopefully she can rest enough to let it heal, and let me do some more things around the house.

Derek, I have the picture of the spreadsheet open right now, I'll probably correct things over the next few days based on the measurements I've made. There were a lot of published specifications that were way off, and a lot that were close. I'll pm you tomorrow about ideas on how to present the results. Your spreadsheeting looks a lot better than mine lol.

The weight and total thickness on Peel N Seal are the only things that I found to be off spec wise for that brand. I measured the weight at about 0.25lbs/square foot. I measured total thickness to be about 40mil. Fatmat measured the same in every catagory as Peel N Seal, although I still agree with keeping a separate spot for it, as it is a different product. Both of these products are an Asphalt/Butyl hybrid. Both have a thin plastic layer bonded between the damping layer and aluminum layer. I haven't been able to isolate it for measurement.

I haven't tested B-Quiet Extreme yet, so I'll update after xmas.

GTMat Pro, Ultra, and 110, are all the same Asphalt/Butyl mix. They also all have the same aluminum thickness of 2mil. They all have a thin plastic layer between the damping layer and the aluminum. I haven't been able to isolate it for measurements. Weights are as follows, in the order listed above, 0.24, 0.44, 0.65lbs/square foot. Thicknesses are on spec.

I'll have to update more this weekend. I'll get the list together of everything I've measured.


----------



## derek0606

Sounds good, just let me know! I was filling in the blanks with whatever information I found on the good ole interweb. You're the expert so I will let you "do your thing" from there.


----------



## rdubbs

Toostubborn2fail, I was wondering the last couple days about the testing and I know it's not done but I realized there's been a lot of emphasis on heat for the CLD, not sure if this was covered anywhere but what about cold temperatures for CLD performance? In your opinion will there be drastic differences in performance in colder temperatures?


----------



## Hugerush

Sooooo, as MurderMat has fallen off the face of the earth for now (no products in stock until?), is it true that Audio Technix 80mil is identical to the MurderMat MDK (save for the logos)?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I haven't received any Audio Technix to verify that. Its possible, but I can't say for sure. 



As for cold affecting performance, it definitely does. Unfortunately without having a way to test vibration at low temps, I have no way to tell how it changes. 

I have the design finished for a new test rig. It will cost roughly $2000 to build, and takes up a 4'x'4x8' section of my garage. Not something I can do at this time.


----------



## rton20s

Chris, next time I'm over you'll have to share the design with me. I'm definitely interested in helping with the future build and rounds if testing.

I also have some electrical, mechanical and structural engineers at my disposal that could probably help us optimize the test rig.


----------



## seafish

And I'll bet that some DIYMA folks, myself included, would be willing to pitch in some dollars to support the testing. I mean $20 each is only 100 people, right??


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, sure thing. The biggest cost is the wood, and machine work. The next clamping surfaces have to be steel, to prevent the clamping force drift we had this time. Also need a better way of clamping the metal test panel when I remove the deadening to keep it from flexing. Thats figured out too, not too expensive, but time consuming to build.


----------



## rdubbs

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> As for cold affecting performance, it definitely does. Unfortunately without having a way to test vibration at low temps, I have no way to tell how it changes.


No worries! I just figured out of anyone to ask, you would have the most insight since you're working with all the different brands of CLD. Do you have any speculation or hypothesis on how it would be affected? Or are there too many variables to even hypothesize?


----------



## james2266

rdubbs said:


> No worries! I just figured out of anyone to ask, you would have the most insight since you're working with all the different brands of CLD. Do you have any speculation or hypothesis on how it would be affected? Or are there too many variables to even hypothesize?


Curious of this as well. Us Canadians have to worry about -40 C alot more than we have to worry about +40C. Is there a brand/specific cld that you think would be better in extreme cold than others?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ill play with it a little bit. Nothing official, but I'll see if I can figure anything out.


----------



## james2266

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ill play with it a little bit. Nothing official, but I'll see if I can figure anything out.


Appreciated greatly. I already have my cld and most of it is installed but good to know if I have picked the right stuff and good to know for future installs and for every other person out there that has crap weather to deal with the majority of the time.


----------



## rdubbs

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ill play with it a little bit. Nothing official, but I'll see if I can figure anything out.





james2266 said:


> Appreciated greatly.


My feelings as well  The weather where I'm at isn't usually that bad, but we hit the really low temperatures these past couple weeks, and I just thought about all the audio guys up here in the north and what properties of CLD we should focus more on for the Cold winters and Hot summers.


----------



## rton20s

Well, I can definitely help out on the steel front. Drew is pretty good on the fabrication end, and I can get pretty good steel prices through my mother's work. I know it is a way off, but if there was a way I could help expedite or make it easier, I would be glad to help.


----------



## derek0606

I guess I dropped the ball on Audio Technix. Sbeezy beat me over there and I assumed he was donating the piece. My bad, I'll go to the shop and get a sample though!


----------



## Alrojoca

I would be happy to also see the tests of the AT that some many fans cheer about on other forums.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Derek, send me a pm. I just set up the test equipment today, and will be starting to finish up the rest of the testing. I'm hoping for a march 10th release of full results.


----------



## BevoBlitzN

Can't wait to see the results....thanks for the hard work.


----------



## vulgamore89

So I see you placed knu koncepts kolossus as your third choice. But you said early on in the testing that it seemed low quality? Or was I reading that wrong? I was thinking on trying it out in my truck


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Originally I commented on the aluminum being way under spec, but it turns out it didn't matter performance wise. I would currently place them second as it seems you cant get murdermat any more.


----------



## casey

i assume sds cld tiles were first? i read through everything a while ago and have forgotten lol


----------



## rton20s

Yes, I believe SDS and Knu Kolossus are sitting at 1 and 2 respectively.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yup. Keep in mind that kolossus is technically tied for second, but it seems your cant get murdermat anymore. Also, stp bomb and silent coat 5mm bilayer perform better than sds at room temps, but both are highly asphault/bitumen based materials.


----------



## casey

cool deal. i bought 40 tiles from don at sds. i have been happy so far but have yet to get my set up in yet. his other products are excellent as well


----------



## th3disturbed1

casey said:


> cool deal. i bought 40 tiles from don at sds. i have been happy so far but have yet to get my set up in yet. his other products are excellent as well


How long did it take Don to get back to you? I'm sitting at 3 days so far and getting restless..


----------



## nickshuk

Bump


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

This isn't dead, its currently being worked on. I also have a spare hd on the way to back up all the data so its in two places. For current results, pm me. I'm anticipating 3 more weeks of actual testing, and one month of putting the results together. I will release it here in pdf format. I will also print myself a copy and put it in a binder. I can print for others as well, but ill have to charge, as it will be a significant amount t of paper and ink.


----------



## ahheck01

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> This isn't dead, its currently being worked on. I also have a spare hd on the way to back up all the data so its in two places. For current results, pm me. I'm anticipating 3 more weeks of actual testing, and one month of putting the results together. I will release it here in pdf format. I will also print myself a copy and put it in a binder. I can print for others as well, but ill have to charge, as it will be a significant amount t of paper and ink.


I'm curious! PM is on it's way!


----------



## country_hick

I appreciate all of the hard work put into this effort. Finding what products work best or even if they actually do anything to reduce sound at all is very tough. Apparently not many products offer STC or NRC ratings or anything to say they really work. I like a breakdown by hz and db to see what works.

I am looking forward to seeing your final results. A search for the best products just to silence my diesel truck a little brought me to this site.


----------



## Woosey

Question: 

Are only brands tested at the moment? or also alu-butyl on roll from ebay or such?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Right now the only "no name" products I have are peel n seal, and a product off of ebay that claims to be a butyl based deadener, with a very very thin layer of something that looks like aluminum, but may be mylar, and nylon reinforcement braids (think duct tape). The product is actually a asphalt/butyl blend.


I'm not opposed to testing, but I would like to test stuff that comes from reliable sources (as in they area readily available to purchase). There have been some products that have changed or since become unavailable since I started testing so the tests have limited value now. For instance I've seen reports that Murdermat has become impossible to get, and the store says everything is preorder status. Which is too bad, because its one of the best performing products. I've also heard that the STP online store is almost completely out of stock, and just verified it has few products in stock.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm really going to try for a May 10th release of info, but being that my schedule still sucks, I know that's overly optimistic. I was supposed to stop getting overtime at work last week, but so far I've only had 3 days without ot, meaning weekends are catching up on things I couldn't do during the week. However, I am working on it. Dustin, if your watching, I may be bugging you for some help.

Just a little preparation for you guys, this is going to be large. I'm going to estimate 400 pages, between test, graphs, pics, etc. A lot, lot, lot of graphs.


----------



## Golden Ear

That's so funny that this thread got revived today because just a couple hours ago I used it to order some Kolossus off Amazon. Thanks for doing all this for us Chris, you da man! 

But seriously, May 10? The big comp down south. You couldn't do it like 2 weeks before? Lol JK!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, ill be lucky if its done by then. I maaayyy get the rest of the week with no ot. Then next week it starts up again.


----------



## Hanatsu

400!?! LolZ, I imagine that takes some time. Thanks for doing this.

Tapaaatalk!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Figure each test needs 2 pages to show the frequency response, before and after waterfalls, and to put numbers to it all. And I tried to run up to 4 tests per product, depending on the amount of the product that I had.


----------



## ansuser

Is there any chance you characterize each product by some quantitative measure? Comparing dozens of products by plots is not an easy task...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ill be going over each individual plot and pulling the raw numbers, so there will be a section of each test dedicated towards that. After that, everything will be averaged, and products will be pushing in order based on that and the heat testing results.


----------



## ansuser

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ill be going over each individual plot and pulling the raw numbers, so there will be a section of each test dedicated towards that. After that, everything will be averaged, and products will be pushing in order based on that and the heat testing results.


Cool!
Drop in some stupid mathematical model and PhD thesis is ready!


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dustin, if your watching, I may be bugging you for some help.


I'm here, and I'm always watching.  Just let me know what you need help with and when. I did just order my MLV and CCF from SDS, so hopefully I'll start tackling that by the end of the week. 



Golden Ear said:


> That's so funny that this thread got revived today because just a couple hours ago I used it to order some Kolossus off Amazon. Thanks for doing all this for us Chris, you da man!
> 
> But seriously, May 10? The big comp down south. You couldn't do it like 2 weeks before? Lol JK!


I think you'll be happy with the Kolossus. I am pleased with my results, so far. Check out the quick Before & After video in my build thread if you haven't seen it already. (It's nice having two virtually identical cars to make A/B comparisons.)


----------



## Golden Ear

Sweet! I'll check it out. I've read your build but can't recall the video.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

How much was shipping on the mlv? You can pm/txt me that if you want. I also may have an ice cream order to place. 

Ill let you know when I have time to test, I'm not sure how the rest of the week will pan out, but sat ill be working the dump on us from 5-2:30. And supposedly next week starts up the every day ot again.


----------



## FUKAZ28

Thanks for all the info, it's very helpful for sure


----------



## rton20s

I can post it up in here, not a big deal. I ordered 36 sf of MLV from SDS for $84.96 + $46.22 for shipping. So the total of $131.18 was more than the $98 min. order of 40 sf from Trademark, but the width of the roll from SDS is more advantageous for my install. To make sure I was covered with Trademark, I would have had to order the 100 sf roll for $180.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Are you gonna be able to cover the whole car with 36 square feet?

Looks like the rest of the week I'm working over, plus sat, and all of next week. And ill likely get held today, as I think another driver left early.


----------



## papasin

FYI, my 8th gen Civic sedan was somewhere between 45-48 SQ ft. (Doors, floor, and trunk).


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Are you gonna be able to cover the whole car with 36 square feet?
> 
> Looks like the rest of the week I'm working over, plus sat, and all of next week. And ill likely get held today, as I think another driver left early.





papasin said:


> FYI, my 8th gen Civic sedan was somewhere between 45-48 SQ ft. (Doors, floor, and trunk).


Saturday is shot for me as well. Looks like I'll be taking the wife to see Wicked for her birthday. 

On the car, I will not be doing the floor. I quadruple checked my measurements, and I should be able to do all 4 doors + hatch door with some MLV and CCF to spare.


----------



## undone1

Mass Loade Vinyl Mat...

a little over a $1 a sq ft for 1/8 mlv... by far the cheapest,especially when shipping is a factor...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Does it smell though?


----------



## james2266

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Does it smell though?


Smell? Its mlv... Ya got me confused by this question. I thought all mlv smelled the same. Maybe I am mistaken here.


----------



## papasin

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Does it smell though?


I got mine from Soundproofing.org and I have had no issues. Just drove straight to the warehouse (and you CenCal and SoCal guys are closer).


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> I got mine from Soundproofing.org and I have had no issues. Just drove straight to the warehouse (and you CenCal and SoCal guys are closer).


Hmm... I wonder if the airlines would allow me to bring it as a carry on next time?:laugh:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

james2266 said:


> Smell? Its mlv... Ya got me confused by this question. I thought all mlv smelled the same. Maybe I am mistaken here.


Some mlv is recycled/regrind, and can supposedly smell pretty bad.


----------



## undone1

papasin said:


> I got mine from Soundproofing.org and I have had no issues. Just drove straight to the warehouse (and you CenCal and SoCal guys are closer).


yup,no issues here either...actually was suggested this route ( as far as being local ) by Don himself,to save on cost,both the product itself and esp. the shipping...


----------



## papasin

Chris as the OP, hope you don't mind, but cross posting this...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...161965-mass-loaded-vinyl-resource-thread.html


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No problem at all, the more information shared, the better. That will actually come in really handy when I go to deaden her car this fall. Thanks Richard.


----------



## deeep

Have you received any of the new GZ stuff? Im gonna need some deadener soon.


----------



## rton20s

I've been curious to know if they had offered up any product as well. If they are willing to sell in single sheets, I would be willing to throw a couple bucks toward picking some up. Even though I've already purchased all of my deadening materials.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sorry I missed your other post, no I havent been able to test any yet. I'm not even sure I've its landed stateside yet.


----------



## deeep

I saw that thread about someone visiting the warehouse with pics....figured its in stock is all.

No biggie, its pricing itself out of touch for me. Kno Knoise seems to be the greatest price/performance deadener.


----------



## babybap

so where did second skin rank


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Originally I commented on the aluminum being way under spec, but it turns out it didn't matter performance wise. I would currently place them second as it seems you cant get murdermat any more.


ALL MurderMat is out of stock nationally and will be back in stock by July 7th. Feel free to order in advance to insure your order ships immediately once MurderMat is in stock. The BL series has been improved with an even thicker aluminum layer for added dampening constriction, making it one of the most effective deadening products on the market. Thank you for your support!


----------



## schmiddr2

That's all well and good, but considering you are piggybacking off his testing thread to advertise your product, it would be a good show of faith in your product to send him some samples.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

He has sent some samples previously, although I would love to test the new stuff. Mdk and Kolossus are basically tied, depending on how many decimals you round off.


----------



## Nothingface5384

schmiddr2 said:


> That's all well and good, but considering you are piggybacking off his testing thread to advertise your product, it would be a good show of faith in your product to send him some samples.


Ah, I'm not a vendor or salesman or anything
Just a regular guy like many on this forum
I was simply adding info
I have no affiliation with any cld product


----------



## schmiddr2

Well it sounded like an advertisement. So now how to get some to test.


----------



## Nothingface5384

schmiddr2 said:


> Well it sounded like an advertisement. So now how to get some to test.


Yeah, I read it was out of stock
went to the site and that was the msg
I just copy and pasted the info here since it game date on when they should be in stock and that new stuff is supposed to be improved over the old stock

to get some I can just email the guy again
He was more then happy to send the stuff last time


----------



## sbeezy

Ts2f if you have Facebook contact Purpl Syrup for a sample of gp stfu mat if you haven't already have, I would love to see this in the shootout.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk


----------



## katocy

So which CLD is in the lead so far?

This is the most awesome work I have ever seen by any forum member, anywhere! Much much appreciated Chris!


----------



## deeep

Why dont you read the entire thread? On top of which he repeated it several times.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ill post an current list on sunday, I'm in the process of moving all results to my desktop, and moving the desktop to the living room, since my laptop is on its last legs. The test rig is also being moved to the living room.

Off the top of my head, you cant go wrong with sds cld tiles, knukonceptz kolossus, stp-atlantic gold, and murdermat mdk. Stp-atlantic bomb is the absolute best damper, but I have not done heat testing yet and it is bitumen based. It may or may not hold up to hot summers, I dont feel confident making that decision yet.


----------



## katocy

You know what would be awesome! The icing on the cake! If there was an excel sheet (or similar) where all the brands you tested are listed according to which got the best numbers. Basically something like... X brand and next to the name of that brand the db number and next to that, the Hz number. The brand with the best number would be on top of the list and the worst brand at the bottom.


----------



## rton20s

I know Chris has been compiling the data into one HUGE document that he will be publishing. I don't know that it will be as simple as a single excel sheet. And keep in mind, this is all before he has had the chance to do his heat testing.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, I'm working on it, there will be a spreadsheet as well. 

Anyone good with computers available to help with some issues? There's a problem with REW and the mic. The common fix seems to be to re-install windows, but I'd like to avoid that if possible. There is another person who said they used a download program to reset all of the settings to default. Anyone know how to do that without downloading a program from some oddball website? I need to disable my windows updates too.


----------



## rton20s

Chris, I know just enough to be dangerous. The last thing I would want to do is cause you to lose a bunch of data. Hopefully you have your results backed up somewhere and your only issue is obtaining new data with the mic/REW combination. 

If someone here on DIYMA can't help you out, you might try contacting EMD here in town. They do a pretty decent job. My current office and previous office use them for all of their IT needs that can't be taken care of in-house.


----------



## REGULARCAB

I read through the first couple posts you made on home theater shack. You should be able to accomplish the same thing by manually deleting the sound card in device manager and reinstalling the drivers. If its a desktop and aftermarket sound card you would be set because you probably have a driver cd. Laptop sound devices can be a little harder to track down a driver for.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, yep I'm in about the same position. Everything is backed up on an external hard drive, but I cant make new measurements. 


Regular cab, thanks, ill look into it. I was using a laptop to measure, but its pretty old at this point, it'll probably be replaced next year. For this project I could also use my desktop, it should be a little easier to get the driver for that sound card. Ill look into that, probably weds.


----------



## country_hick

The computer makers usually have all of the drivers available on their website. I have had to download drivers for my machine before.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can definitely get it for the desktop, its the laptop I worry about. They just discontinued the factory battery for it. Its only generics and a Duracell one now.


----------



## rton20s

My current notebook came from a Danish manufacturer. Shortly after I purchased, they went under. I downloaded every single driver (whether I needed it or not) from their site before it disappeared forever.


----------



## Lorin

try reinstalling the last available service pack for the laptop OS. Decent shortcut without rebuilding completely.


----------



## RifterAD

If you have recently installed something (which caused it to stop), then try rolling back the driver to the last version. Alternatively, you can roll back windows to an older restore point to a date that you know everything was still working.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

What kind of laptop is it, what OS and what exactly is going on w/ it?

Josh


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok guys, a couple things going on.

The laptop is a Samsung RC512, running windows 7. Nothing new has been installed recently, aside from widows updates. From browsing on HTS, it seems that can sometimes cause a problem. Over there, the only solution they've found was to reload windows, but I'm not sure how many other things they tried.

I tried looking for updates for the soundcard (realtek) and it says I'm up to date. I'm going to see if there are earlier versions available, and if not then I may try reloading windows from a previous point.

On a side note, I moved the desktop to the living room, its a much newer Alienware, and I should be able to replace the drivers much easier on that thing. I'm just waiting to finish the cabinet for it, which will also serve as a isolation table for my turntable. The problem right now, is I'm waiting for the chance to get someone to help me lift it. Its 200+ pounds, and its not finished yet.


----------



## nickshuk

Where in california you from?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Central, in between bakersfield and fresno.


----------



## rton20s

If any movement of the cabinet needs to be done on Friday, you know I'll be available to help.


----------



## nickshuk

I wish I could help you but Im down south from you


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, it will likely need to be moved inside. I was hoping to have it done tonight, but my sander failed, so it was delayed a couple of days. As of now, it probably weighs just over 200 pounds. I know the bottom for sure is 75 pounds, and the top shelf is 80. The legs are probably 45 pounds total. Once its inside, there's another 50 pounds of material to add to it, plus the computer and the turntable.

Thanks Nick, ya working on these things isn't my specialty. Using them for the most part is ok, but trouble shooting and solving problems isn't it.


----------



## wwhan

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Central, in between bakersfield and fresno.


Oh, near Visalia Sight & Sound?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm in visalia, near the north side Lowes.


----------



## rton20s

wwhan said:


> Oh, near Visalia Sight & Sound?


Sight & Sound? That is name I haven't seen or heard in years! It has probably been at least a decade since that store existed. I think I was only ever in the store once, with my parents, as a kid. Hanger Prosthetics & Orthotics now occupies the building S&S was in. I always liked that building. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.323758,-119.313872,3a,90y,91.72h,87.18t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sym7OpCyzmmc-wtkkLQ01FQ!2e0


----------



## mcfreckle11

I just joined this website because of this write up and I cant wait to see the final write-up with all the results together. I have been reading for hours and feel like I just went through a 6 month class on sound deadening/dampening . Keep up the good work and make it easier for cheapos like me that want the best bang for their buck even if it takes more time because you have to apply multiple layers but the material is cheaper so it ends up costing less. If you have a list of people that want your write-up please add me to it thanks.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hey guys.

Over the next two weeks I am going to work on publishing what I have so far. I have a couple of family situations that have deteriorated, one health related, and the other is going to see us having to find a new place to live in quick order. 

Everything that has not been finished will be finished when we find a new place to live. I expect this to take 2-4 months. I will no longer have the input of the physicist I previously had access to, so everything in the testing from this point on will be put together by myself and a few local like minded people. Well, ok, by Dustin and I. 

I'm sorry for the delay.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Over the next two weeks I am going to work on publishing what I have so far. I have a couple of family situations that have deteriorated, one health related, and the other is going to see us having to find a new place to live in quick order.
> 
> Everything that has not been finished will be finished when we find a new place to live. I expect this to take 2-4 months. I will no longer have the input of the physicist I previously had access to, so everything in the testing from this point on will be put together by myself and a few local like minded people. Well, ok, by Dustin and I.
> 
> I'm sorry for the delay.


Take your time.


----------



## LastResort

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Over the next two weeks I am going to work on publishing what I have so far. I have a couple of family situations that have deteriorated, one health related, and the other is going to see us having to find a new place to live in quick order.
> 
> Everything that has not been finished will be finished when we find a new place to live. I expect this to take 2-4 months. I will no longer have the input of the physicist I previously had access to, so everything in the testing from this point on will be put together by myself and a few local like minded people. Well, ok, by Dustin and I.
> 
> I'm sorry for the delay.


Got damn, sounds like serious bidness. Anything we can help with?


----------



## Golden Ear

I hope everything works out for you bro.


----------



## rton20s

Whatever you need Chris, just let me know.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys. There's not much that would help right now, just a really lousy situation.

Without getting too far into it, one parent is moving in, to help prevent their health from failing further, and the relationship with the other parent is pretty much finished, due to failure on their part to follow through with agreements about the house we're in.


----------



## socapots

Just read it all. And I have to say thank you for all you have done and continue to do. 
I'm still learning about about this part off the hobby, and things like this are the best way to learn. 

Without sounding like a self help, Everything happens for a reason and while life is not always easy the troubles make us who we are.
Take your time. No one is going to rush you for all the great work you have already provided. 
And for all the things you want to keep doing. 

Great work.


----------



## nickshuk

bumppppp


----------



## WhiteL02

Bump very interested in results.


----------



## PteDefcon

Oh man, I've been dying to put some soundproofing in my Golf and can't wait to see the results from this . Already got my MLV now just need some CLD!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

ok.

The test rig is set back up. It is now in my living room, due to a change in living arrangements. Still dealing with the mic issue, later this week I'm going to try a full reinstall of windows to see if it fixes it, if not, I will have to move forward with testing despite the issues. The mic itself works perfect, its a software/windows issue with REW. The issue first appears at about 800hz, and if you look through the results, the meaningful measurements seem to taper off around 300hz. Therefore, I will focus all results information below about 500hz if the worst case scenario happens. I will also be pulling out the oven for heat testing this weekend, and begin that as well. That should go more hitch free. I go on vacation at the end of the month for two weeks, the first week my wife will be off, the second she will not, and I will be working on this full time. 

I want to thank everyone for being patient. The last year has burned me out. I've never had more things go wrong in my entire life than what has gone wrong in the last year. Its literally been one thing after another after another in a constant pattern. Again, thank you for not beating me to death on this.

I have collected everything I wish to test aside from one product. I will be ordering a sample this week. Keep in mind, this product is more of a "what if". It is currently sold by a company called Audio Additives. The only place I have found it is through a website called Music Direct. The research I've done says that it was designed and manufactured by 3M for a short time, and designed to be a constrained layer damper, focusing on being the most effective material for damping vibrations in sheet metal in the audible frequencies. For whatever reason (likely poor sales due to cost), they licensed it out to other companies. I do not know if they still manufacture it, or if it has been outsourced. I can say that it is supposed to be 15mil thick, with a 10mil thick layer of stainless steel, and a 5mil thick layer of viscoelastic material. Again, this is just to see "what if". It may test great, it may not. It's not really relevant, but with it supposedly being a no limits product designed by 3M, I think I need to test it. I will be buying a 4"x12" piece, the largest size they offer, and will have to cut it to shape, similar to what I had to do for the black hole products. Pricing is $20 for the 4"x12" piece, so $60 a square foot. 


I've received many pm's asking for current rankings, and I believe I have answered them all, if not please pm me and remind me. At this point, I don't think I have anything to lose by posting the top 2 performers, since nothing else is close anymore. 

1 - SDS CLD Tiles - This is the best performer so far, and has the best heat resistance published specs. It is one of the more expensive products. It sells for between $5.40 and $6.36 per square foot, depending on how much you buy.

2 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus - This is the second best performer so far, and has the next best published heat resistance specs. It is more budget friendly. It is very VERY close to the level of damping performance of SDS CLD Tiles. It sells between $3.43 and $5.43 per square foot, depending on how much you buy.

***STP Atlantic Bomb, Silent Coat 5mm Bi-layer, and Silent Coat 4mm all actually damp better than SDS CLD Tiles, in the order that I listed them, however they all use bitumen, which makes me wary of their heat resistance. Also, the Silent Coat I received, smells very very strongly of industrial grease. I am told this is not normal, so YMMV.


*****Murdermat MDK actually beats out Kolossus by a hair, but it is no longer available.


----------



## seafish

Sorry to hear about all your difficulties!!!

And thanks SO much for doing all this work to help evreyone else out!!!

Glad that the SDS is a top tier performer ( I kinda always knew it would be given Dons own research) as it is what I have used in both my vehicles. That being said, I am VERY curious as to how the 3m product will compare to the others.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I expected sds to be a top performer, I didn't expect kolossus to perform as close as it did to it. We're talking non-audible difference in performance even in a controlled environment. And stp-atlantic bomb was an audible step above sds, but until I run heat testing I can't fully recommend it.


----------



## LaserSVT

Well hell, wish I would have read all this first. I sure don't want to rip all thf Fat Mat off my doors so I think I will just do the floors, firewall and roof in STP Atlantic Bomb. Looks like I will only need 4 rolls at $95 a roll. I hear a lot of noise still from them and really want to silent the truck inside.

Thank you for all the research.


----------



## Weigel21

Haven't read through all of the thread, just a handful of pages. Seems to be an interesting read though. I'm looking forward to the final results of the test, perhaps a new thread could be made with the results of each product, one right after another, instead of having to jump around from page to page to find them.


----------



## Alrojoca

Thanks again for all the work done!

Maybe I missed it, or maybe not, I was curious if the Audio Technix was tested, I remember reading samples were supplied. 

I look forward about future testing with MLV, maybe I can send a piece of my local carpet supplier for testing, no clue what brand or who the supplier/brand is but I can send it anyway if it helps.


----------



## Weigel21

Alrojoca said:


> Thanks again for all the work done!
> 
> maybe I can send a piece of my local carpet supplier for testing, no clue what brand or who the supplier/brand is but I can send it anyway if it helps.


Mystery material FTW! :laugh:


----------



## Alrojoca

Weigel21 said:


> Mystery material FTW! :laugh:


Yes, since it did not come from their supplier directly to me.

One thing I know, is, it is not smelly, not reinforced and it is 1 lbs/sf for sure.


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ***STP Atlantic Bomb, Silent Coat 5mm Bi-layer, and *Silent Coat 4mm* all actually damp better than SDS CLD Tiles, in the order that I listed them, however they all use *bitumen*, which makes me wary of their heat resistance. Also, the Silent Coat I received, smells very very strongly of industrial grease. I am told this is not normal, so YMMV.


Are you assuming the mastic is bitumen filled or is this a known fact? 

There's also another product available called mastic adhesive ( like the specs at sc say ) which is not filled with bitumen ( which also is not asphalt, but can be part of an asphalt mixture )

I'm curious about this because I work a lot with this material ( SC ) and never ever smelled the asphalt smell you mentioned in another post iirc.

The multi layer from silent coat you tested, which colors were the layers? Here in europe the first and third layer are red, it is improved because it had some issues in the past with the layers separating. This was iirc solved by another material mix and more pressure in the manufacturing process..

The greasy smell, was it the material or the backing paper causing the material to smell?

I may sound sceptic, it's just because I have very good experiences with this brand and the 2 issues you name sound not familliar.. 

I will post a pic of the red layers tomorrow..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Responding on my phone, but the layers are red in mine as well. It's definitely the damping materials that smell in my case, I've gotten many replies from people that say they've never gotten a smell, but I can only go by what I have in front of me. I actually received two complete sample boxes, and both sets of materials had the same smell, in fact even now months after the leftovers have been removed from the box, it still smells the same although slightly less so.

I swear I remember seeing that the damping sheets had bitumen in them, I'll re-check to make sure. I'm wary of the heat resistance because it can easily get to 170f here inside the car in the summer, any many other bitumen products have failed spectacularly in those conditions. That said, the SC and Stp Bomb will be heat tested this weekend, since I'll finally be on vacation.


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> *****Murdermat MDK actually beats out Kolossus by a hair, but it is no longer available.


murder Mat looks to be available now
The *BL series* replaced the MDK series as its improved upon. .guessing just thicker constraining foil layer is all they've done for the "improvement"


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Responding on my phone, but the layers are red in mine as well. It's definitely the damping materials that smell in my case, I've gotten many replies from people that say they've never gotten a smell, but I can only go by what I have in front of me. I actually received two complete sample boxes, and both sets of materials had the same smell, in fact even now months after the leftovers have been removed from the box, it still smells the same although slightly less so.
> 
> I swear I remember seeing that the damping sheets had bitumen in them, I'll re-check to make sure. I'm wary of the heat resistance because it can easily get to 170f here inside the car in the summer, any many other bitumen products have failed spectacularly in those conditions. That said, the SC and Stp Bomb will be heat tested this weekend, since I'll finally be on vacation.



Thanks for responding. 

Could it be that the product sold in the USA is different from the product sold in Europe? Maybe they manufacture on different locations ( shipping weight may be a pita ) with little differences in manufacturing processes.. I'm just thinking out loud.. Just took a pack of the 2mm, 4mm, and multilayer and no smell here.. The 4mm here is a single thick layer of butyl, the multilayer has a bitumen filled rubber layer in between the red layers. Not pure bitumen like the brown bread from back in the day.. The "real" bitumen I know is also pretty stiff in room temperature, while this is pretty flexible and elastic.. I rubbed down a bit of the red layer to show the middle layer..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, that's pretty much what the product I have looks like. It's possible also that maybe the foams had the smell and it was absorbed by the stuff, but it doesn't seem likely. I'll be running the heat testing this weekend, so we'll see how that turns out. When the final results go up there will also be the disclaimer that while my samples had the smell, many others report that there isn't a smell on theirs.


----------



## Extended Power

Never did test the Focal BAM?

(Didn't see it in the 28 pages...but I was "skimming" through...)

Awesome that you took the time to do this. Thank You.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have it, hasn't been tested yet. I'll be starting monday. Heat testing will start tomorrow.


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I have it, hasn't been tested yet. I'll be starting monday. Heat testing will start tomorrow.


How is that going to be done if I may ask? A post # is also fine if you have described it already in this thread.. 

Ps. I like how much time you spend with/on this.. You have my respect for sure.. 

Keep up the good work! and thanks for doing/sharing this!


----------



## Extended Power

I am so close to buying the Focal BAM XXXL kit to install overtop of the Dynamat Extreme I have installed already....and then I found the Dynapad stuff that is ment to go over top of the Dynamat Extreme stuff...

Which would be better to use overtop of the Dynamat Extreme?

Looks like I would need at least 2 kits of the Focal BAM, or 3 kits of the Dynapad.
Focal would be around $800.00
Dynapad would be just over $300.00

Is the Focal stuff that much better???


----------



## subwoofery

Extended Power said:


> I am so close to buying the Focal BAM XXXL kit to install overtop of the Dynamat Extreme I have installed already....and then I found the Dynapad stuff that is ment to go over top of the Dynamat Extreme stuff...
> 
> Which would be better to use overtop of the Dynamat Extreme?
> 
> Looks like I would need at least 2 kits of the Focal BAM, or 3 kits of the Dynapad.
> Focal would be around $800.00
> Dynapad would be just over $300.00
> 
> Is the Focal stuff that much better???


Wrong thread to ask your question. Please create your own thread. 
This one is about TESTING. 

Kelvin


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And just for the record, neither will help with much. You already have dynamat down, which is a decent performer, you need a mass loaded vinyl next. Neither of those products are that, and neither will further help much when installed over the dynamat. Those products are more of decouplers to prevent rattles.


----------



## REGULARCAB

Fwiw dynapad claims to be 1lb vinyl with foam on each side and a thin layer to keep crap off the foam. Its ungodly expensive however.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My bad, I was thinking about dynaliner. Should limit my half asleep posts. But damn you're right that stuff is overpriced. For that price I'd sooner use Cascade's VB-3. It's thinner and shows slight better noise rejection properties in the low frequencies, which are the hardest to deal with anyways.


----------



## FortheLove

Awesome thread. Looking @ purchasing something to do the doors, floor, and back of the cab in my 2500 Ram. 

Was there ever a consensus on the product that is the best bang for the buck? I read through everything, but didn't really see or couldn't decipher. 

Thanks


----------



## REGULARCAB

I would honestly go with knukonceptz kolossus for bang for buck.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^as of now, yep. I don't see much changing in that regard either. STP-ATLANTIC Bomb survived 2 hours at 180 degrees, but failed at when I turned the oven up to 400 degrees within a minute. So I'm going to retest, adding a 3rd temp. I'll also re-calibrate the oven to get a true 200 degrees, and test for 3 hours at 200, 2 hours at 300, and 1 hour at 400. If any product fails the 200 degree test, it instantly fails in terms of heat resistance. 300 degree and 400 degree testing will be monitored to determine when it fails at those temps.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Do you have someplace where all of this info that has been gathered so far is available?

Josh


----------



## Weigel21

FortheLove said:


> Awesome thread. Looking @ purchasing something to do the doors, floor, and back of the cab in my 2500 Ram.
> 
> Was there ever a consensus on the product that is the best bang for the buck? I read through everything, but didn't really see or couldn't decipher.
> 
> Thanks


I don't believe TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL has finished testing all the products he has, or hopes to get and test. Still, I'm not entirely sure there is going to be a definitive answer to such a question. 

I mean lets say for $___ amount you can deaden the whole vehicle with product A and reduce noise/vibrations by 8dB. However, for only $___ more you can gain another 5dB in deadening. 

Some may feel the extra money is well worth it, others may not. And then there are many who will have a strict budget wanting the best they can get for "X" amount, which in such a case, the "best" bang for your buck, may well not be what the asker can afford.

As TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said in an earlier post, there were some products that performed quite well, but had asphalt in them, and in such, he couldn't recommend them. Me, I've used a few different products, ranging from roofing material "Quick Roof", to car deadening marketed asphalt based products, to butyl based car deadening products. 

My application with each was merely for deadening the trunk and plate, with once instance stretching application on to the rear plastic panel of the car. Sorry, don't know what the proper term is, but this was on a 92' Cutlass Ciera, in which there was plastic screwed to the metal body/trunk of the car. 

In every application, an improvement was perceived, or at least I was able to dial up the volume a few more notches before rattles appeared again. Can I say my money/time was spent as effective as possible? Surely not, but I was happy to have an improvement for my time and money. Though I'm sure if I was able to do a comparison to a similar vehicle and system with a better deadening job, I'd not have been as "content" with what I had done. 

Still, I'm hoping for a new thread by the OP with nothing but the results on the first page, so one doesn't have to jump between pages.


----------



## Weigel21

200* would be a temperature my car probably sees during hot sunny summer days. Failing after 30 minutes to an hour at 300*, at least for me, wouldn't be too big of a deal. I mean I've pressed my luck before with Quick Roof with out any issues of it coming off, had the Cutlass for two years with no problem as far as it coming off. Effectiveness of it on the other hand, it helped, but probably the least amount out of any product I've ever used.


----------



## REGULARCAB

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^as of now, yep. I don't see much changing in that regard either. STP-ATLANTIC Bomb survived 2 hours at 180 degrees, but failed at when I turned the oven up to 400 degrees within a minute. So I'm going to retest, adding a 3rd temp. I'll also re-calibrate the oven to get a true 200 degrees, and test for 3 hours at 200, 2 hours at 300, and 1 hour at 400. If any product fails the 200 degree test, it instantly fails in terms of heat resistance. 300 degree and 400 degree testing will be monitored to determine when it fails at those temps.


Are you doing anything to mitigate the ungodly surface temp spikes you can get from the coils when an oven heats up? Im not one to question methods but I recently melted the bottom half of a stack of plastic plates in my oven set to 125 degrees, so the thought came up.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There will definitely be a finished thread with results in the first post. This is mostly a dump post until the results are final. 

As far as best bang per buck, I'd stick with kolossus. It's more effective than most products that cost even more, and it's effective enough that anything costing significantly less would be less cost efficient to use. In other words 9 square feet of kolossus at close to $4.50 a square foot would be more effective than 12-14 square feet of any product costing $3 a square foot or less.


----------



## Weigel21

Cool, may have to look into getting some for my 03' cavalier when/if I get it back on the road. 

Thinking 50sqft would be enough to do a pretty good job, but I see they don't sell it in such, only 35sqft and then 70sqft. Bummer.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I know exactly what you mean about the heat coils. The way I've bent the metal sheet and position it, there is a metal shield blocking the sample from the heating coils. I will also be placing the metal sheet in place after the oven is preheated.

Interesting thing about the STP Bomb, its a two layer product, with a bitumen layer, and a butyl layer. The butyl layer survived, the bitumen layer fell off with the aluminum layer attached. The butyl layer stayed pliable, while the bitumen layer hardened like a rock.


----------



## coldsoda

I am glad to see the good results from SDShowdown - I met Don in person and picked up quite a bit of material from him. He knows his stuff and was kind enough to show me how to get the products installed in the most effective way. I look forward to getting my project done now -- My choice before meeting him was going to be the kolossus thanks to the testing show in this thread. 

Thanks for all the hard work and results TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL!


----------



## Th3pwn3r

I just started reading this thread last night and finished(after sleeping of course) this morning. I know it's kind of stupid to read reviews AFTER purchasing a product but I was pretty confident in SDS from the little info I had on it prior to finding this. I will be installing the tiles in a short while. I have ports firing up right into the bare roof of my Ford Ranger so this will be needed before installing this box. For those wondering it's two 9515s(once I can figure out a recone to match my current working sub). 

Anyhow, great thread and I can't wait to see more results!


----------



## nickshuk

bump


----------



## c2insa

if you are going to use lead shot and resin, which resin is best?

i researched resin and found bondo at $45 gal but I'm worried it is too caustic or gets too hot and distorts my trim panels

which resin is best


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For deadening the trim panels, I wouldn't use lead shot with resin. The chances of it cracking off are too high. Poly resin doesn't stick to trim plastic very well to begin with, and adding mass will make that worse.

Epoxy resin would be better, but at that point it wouldn't be any different than just using epoxy to glue lead to it. 

I also wouldn't use it like that in wood enclosures, unless you mix it pretty cold and let it cure for a long time. I recently attempted this with bondo resin and concrete powder for a cheap temporary project, and it warped the bottom panel of the project by half an inch.


----------



## c2insa

what if i used tiny lead shot pressed into the butyl side of deadening mat, then applied the sheet to the panel surface?


----------



## Blackbeard

2Stub,
If you get a chance, I would like to see what impact a double layering of something like Kolossus would test out to be.

What is the point of diminishing returns?

I'm interested in what effect this would have in silencing the diesel engine noise coming from my Ford F350.

I would be looking primarily at the firewall and tranny hump for double layers as that is where most of the noise is coming from.

Since it wouldn't take much more effort to add another layer, it may be worth it if there is any benefit at all.

Thx for all your hard work on this!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I will be doing a double thickness test.


However, going from 0% coverage with kolossus to 25% coverage netted a 13db reduction in resonance. Going from 25% to 100% quadrupled the cost while only gaining 8 dB in resonance reduction. Double layers will likely improve it less.

For noise reduction from a diesel your best bet is a barrier layer of mlv.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> For noise reduction from a diesel your best bet is a barrier layer of mlv.


Don't forget to put a layer of CCF in between the CLD (or oem sound barrier) and the MLV!!

If you DO have room between reinstalling the carpet and the floor, you can even double up the MLV over the CCF, or evenn better layer up CCF/MLV/CCF/MLV and that will def help, how many layers you put in is a question of refitting the carpet and seats. 

The firewall is also crucial to treat and it may be easier to access BOTH the engine side (being sure to use fire retardant materials) and also the inside, going up the foot wells as far as you can go, and if you can get inside the dash, lightly stuffing either fiberglass insulation or 3m Acoustic thinsulate into the voids. The top dash panel on my 2005 Ram pops off for access, and I will also be adding CLD, CCF and MLV between it and the lower dash. Note that while there IS a point of diminishing returns with CLD application, I am pretty sure that adding a second layer of CCF and MLV actually doubles the sound blocking effects of a single layer. Soemone please correct me if I am wrong.

At least that is SOME of what I am going to be doing on my diesel truck.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I don't think it doubles, because the firewall acts as a barrier as well, but the returns don't diminish nearly as quickly with multiple barrier levels as it does with dampers.


----------



## Extended Power

I doubled up on the CLD overtop of the transmission tunnel. 
That is where the down firing subs are going to be, so I was just trying to help as much as possible.
I got the CCF and MLV to install yet, but I'm not happy with the way it "hangs" off the back wall using the Velcro, so I bought some 1/2" Dynaliner for there, and some 1/4" Dynaliner it stick on the backside of the cab trim panels. (Middle columns, corner panels, door panels)
Where ever I can use the 1/2" stuff, it will go there...anywhere else will get the 1/4".
The floor will probably be the only place I use the CCF and the MLV. (To awkward to work with.)


----------



## Rudeboy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I don't think it doubles, because the firewall acts as a barrier as well, but the returns don't diminish nearly as quickly with multiple barrier levels as it does with dampers.


That's correct: the improvement you get from adding a barrier depends on what you add plus *what was already there*. Mass Law predicts a 6 dB reduction every time you double the mass of the barrier, under ideal conditions.

The first layer of 1 lb/ ft² barrier will usually more than double what was already there. Let's say the existing sheet metal is .5 lb/ft². More than doubled by the first added barrier layer. Now we've got 1.5 lb/ft ². The next 1 lb/ft² barrier layer will not double this. You'd need to add at least 1.5 lb/ft². Third layer would have to add 3 lb/ft², then 6, 12, 24, etc.

It gets impractical very quickly and I don't bother if I'm not at least doubling. There is a secondary benefit to alternating CCF and MLV through multiple layers. Sound doesn't like to pass through layers of material with drastically different densities. There will be a benefit but it will be mostly in the very high frequency range since the layers are so thin.


----------



## seafish

Rudeboy said:


> That's correct: the improvement you get from adding a barrier depends on what you add plus *what was already there*. Mass Law predicts a 6 dB reduction every time you double the mass of the barrier, under ideal conditions.
> 
> The first layer of 1 lb/ ft² barrier will usually more than double what was already there. Let's say the existing sheet metal is .5 lb/ft². More than doubled by the first added barrier layer. Now we've got 1.5 lb/ft ². The next 1 lb/ft² barrier layer will not double this. You'd need to add at least 1.5 lb/ft². Third layer would have to add 3 lb/ft², then 6, 12, 24, etc.


Got it, thanks for explaining so clearly.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will be doing a double thickness test.
> 
> 
> However, going from 0% coverage with kolossus to 25% coverage netted a 13db reduction in resonance. Going from 25% to 100% quadrupled the cost while only gaining 8 dB in resonance reduction. Double layers will likely improve it less.
> 
> For noise reduction from a diesel your best bet is a barrier layer of mlv.


Very much agree'd.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Rudeboy said:


> That's correct: the improvement you get from adding a barrier depends on what you add plus *what was already there*. Mass Law predicts a 6 dB reduction every time you double the mass of the barrier, under ideal conditions.
> 
> The first layer of 1 lb/ ft² barrier will usually more than double what was already there. Let's say the existing sheet metal is .5 lb/ft². More than doubled by the first added barrier layer. Now we've got 1.5 lb/ft ². The next 1 lb/ft² barrier layer will not double this. You'd need to add at least 1.5 lb/ft². Third layer would have to add 3 lb/ft², then 6, 12, 24, etc.
> 
> It gets impractical very quickly and I don't bother if I'm not at least doubling. There is a secondary benefit to alternating CCF and MLV through multiple layers. Sound doesn't like to pass through layers of material with drastically different densities. There will be a benefit but it will be mostly in the very high frequency range since the layers are so thin.


Agreed completely, especially the part about not bothering unless your doubling.


----------



## country_hick

I went from 82 db at idle to 67 or 68 db with one layer then to 62-63 db by adding a second layer.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ound-reduction-journey-some-good-results.html


----------



## Blackbeard

Thanks all.

I had planned on using an MLV like Sec Skin's Lux Lnr Pro but as I must wait out the winter I'm very interested in 2Stub's MLV tests.

I'll give some thoughts to the layering discussed (at least for the firewall/tranny hump).

Has anyone looked at or used 3M's sound deadening foam products in areas that you can't use sheet products like the pillars.

Sound Deadening - Products

I have noted some use of foams such as Great Stuff for these areas but from what I can tell, the 3M products are used by body shops to replace SD foam in lux mobiles that have had collision work. Apparently, lux cars have been using this foam in pillars, rockers, etc. for SD.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Rigid 2 part foam like you linked can help, one member here noticed less noise from his windshield after foaming his a-pillars. He said foaming the rockers, a, b, and c pillars did almost as much as the mlv did.


----------



## Blackbeard

2Stub,

I can't see it doing as much as MLV but it does give you some options in areas that may have a great deal of impact (windows) but are difficult to tackle by other means.

Can you think of a way to test for that?

Your testing has lent a whole new view to what has been a bit of a WAG.


----------



## Darth SQ

Blackbeard said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> I had planned on using an MLV like Sec Skin's Lux Lnr Pro but as I must wait out the winter I'm very interested in 2Stub's MLV tests.
> 
> I'll give some thoughts to the layering discussed (at least for the firewall/tranny hump).
> 
> Has anyone looked at or used 3M's sound deadening foam products in areas that you can't use sheet products like the pillars.
> 
> Sound Deadening - Products
> 
> I have noted some use of foams such as Great Stuff for these areas but from what I can tell, the 3M products are used by body shops to replace SD foam in lux mobiles that have had collision work. Apparently, lux cars have been using this foam in pillars, rockers, etc. for SD.


You might not want to give up on the LLP yet. I have found it an amazingly effective product and worth the $$$. 
The good news is TSTF is going to be doing a new "combination" test with it very soon and I am looking forward to the results. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've used LLP in the past and as Bret pointed out, its very good. The ONLY downside is its very thick, but if you can fit it, it works great. 

The reason the foam works is by preventing areas from flexing, since all noise that enters the cabin comes from panels reverberating the sound from outside into the cabin.


----------



## Extended Power

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will be doing a double thickness test.
> 
> 
> However, going from 0% coverage with kolossus to 25% coverage netted a 13db reduction in resonance. Going from 25% to 100% quadrupled the cost while only gaining 8 dB in resonance reduction. Double layers will likely improve it less.
> 
> For noise reduction from a diesel your best bet is a barrier layer of mlv.


It doesn't "Quadruple" the cost...it's only triple...your putting one layer on anyways, so your paying for that one...
And actually, it's not quite triple either, as the more you buy, the cheaper it gets.


I'll take a 21db reduction in noise over 13db any day.


----------



## Extended Power

I did a 100% coverage layer of Dynamat Extreme, then a 100% coverage of CCF & MLV, both 1/8" thickness, then a 100% coverage on top of that with 1/2" thick Dynaliner on my back wall.

.....Stupid Noisy Diesels...


----------



## spl152db

Extended Power said:


> It doesn't "Quadruple" the cost...it's only triple...your putting one layer on anyways, so your paying for that one...
> And actually, it's not quite triple either, as the more you buy, the cheaper it gets.
> 
> 
> I'll take a 21db reduction in noise over 13db any day.


:laugh::laugh: its actually 8x the cost. 25% is 1/4. 1/4 * 4 = 1 add another layer = 1/4 * 8 = 2 layers. 8x the cost. maybe 7x after your "large quantity discount".


----------



## Extended Power

spl152db said:


> :laugh::laugh: its actually 8x the cost. 25% is 1/4. 1/4 * 4 = 1 add another layer = 1/4 * 8 = 2 layers. 8x the cost. maybe 7x after your "large quantity discount".


Still cheapest way to lower a vehicle. (Add weight, and it actually rides better too.)


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My goal isn't to tell anyone to use or not use 100% coverage, just to make sure they know the returns are diminished. Whether those returns are worth it or not is up to each individual and situation.


That said, people need to remember cld is a narrow band solution, which is why it is not the best method for reducing general road noise. Sure, it reduced 90hz by about 21db, but it did almost nothing below 50hz and above 300hz.


----------



## Extended Power

Totally appreciate the work your putting into the testing.


----------



## Blackbeard

Extended Power said:


> I did a 100% coverage layer of Dynamat Extreme, then a 100% coverage of CCF & MLV, both 1/8" thickness, then a 100% coverage on top of that with 1/2" thick Dynaliner on my back wall.
> 
> .....Stupid Noisy Diesels...


EP,
Why the extra coverage on the back wall?


----------



## Blackbeard

It should be noted that those of us who have diesels have extra challenges to tame the noisy beasts.

The low level roar from the engine is far greater than most gas vehicles will have to cope with and may need extra effort and expense to control. But definitely worth it.

Oddly, I am just as annoyed by the higher level whine of the front tires at cruising speed as I am by the engine. And this is with very street oriented Michelens not the big swampers. I'm hoping some coverage of NR in the wheel wells will tame some of the whine at the source.

Inside the engine bay, not much room to do anything but the hood but it provides opportunities for SD foam in the beams as well as a large expanse for CLD coverage.

And forgive my naivety but why is their never any talk of MLV use under hood? Is it the temp, weight, etc? While the CLD and foam would definitely cure the vibes, it seem that MLV would help soak up the noise.


----------



## Extended Power

Blackbeard said:


> EP,
> Why the extra coverage on the back wall?



There was still over an inch of room between the CCF, MLV, and the amprack panel.
I still have room to run all the wires between the back of the panel, and the Dynaliner.



Blackbeard said:


> It should be noted that those of us who have diesels have extra challenges to tame the noisy beasts.
> 
> The low level roar from the engine is far greater than most gas vehicles will have to cope with and may need extra effort and expense to control. But definitely worth it.
> 
> Oddly, I am just as annoyed by the higher level whine of the front tires at cruising speed as I am by the engine. And this is with very street oriented Michelens not the big swampers. I'm hoping some coverage of NR in the wheel wells will tame some of the whine at the source.
> 
> Inside the engine bay, not much room to do anything but the hood but it provides opportunities for SD foam in the beams as well as a large expanse for CLD coverage.
> 
> And forgive my naivety but why is their never any talk of MLV use under hood? Is it the temp, weight, etc? While the CLD and foam would definitely cure the vibes, it seem that MLV would help soak up the noise.


I think the flammability of some of the products used would limit just how close to the engine you could get with it.

On my engine, my up pipes and external wastegate are about 1/2" away from the firewall.


----------



## SkizeR

I haven't been in here in a while but has anyone posted all the results in one place yet?


----------



## Darth SQ

SkizeR said:


> I haven't been in here in a while but has anyone posted all the results in one place yet?


TSTF is still testing so just hang in there. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Alrojoca

SkizeR said:


> I haven't been in here in a while but has anyone posted all the results in one place yet?


Maybe not results, but it has been mentioned a few times the top 3 CLD's, one is not available or very hard to get, the next 3,4 are very close

This was posted by Derek giving some details on specs and price

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2015168-post572.html

What I would like to do is figure out based on weight what is more effective, it may not mean anything since the graph responses are differerent but it will be a number.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dynamat, alphadamp, damplifier pro, and Stp Atlantic silver, and murder mat bl all perform about the same in damping performance.

Stp gold is a step above those products.

Sds cld tiles, knukonceptz kolossus, and murder mat mdk all perform at the top of the list and extremely close to each other, with sds edging out ahead.

Raamat, MOJO mat, and stinger roadkill expert all perform about the same, and at the bottom of what I would call the useful performance range. 

The rest of the products perform worse, or have heat resistance issues that prevent me from recommending them.


And yes I still have more to test.


----------



## Alrojoca

Thanks Chris, it would be nice to eventually include Dynamat superlite, although it does not seem popular or sold by many or who knows if it is still being made


----------



## c2insa

Extended Power said:


> I did a 100% coverage layer of Dynamat Extreme, then a 100% coverage of CCF & MLV, both 1/8" thickness, then a 100% coverage on top of that with 1/2" thick Dynaliner on my back wall.
> 
> .....Stupid Noisy Diesels...


And what here is either standard or traditional about this?

The work and experimentation here is priceless for anyone who can't or won't spend the time and money to do this!! If it weren't for breaking tradition and standard methods of the past we would not be enjoying the benefit of knowledge gained here.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm confused. Cld followed by a layer of ccf and mlv is what's considered "standard" now days. It was also explained that more than 25% coverage with cld is into the realm of diminished returns (again, not that I'm knocking it), and that you have to double the mass of the barrier layer to get a 6db improvement.


----------



## c2insa

nothing he's done is standard/traditional

ccf/mlv is not standard at any shop excepting a few that are beyond the performance level available to general consumers. it is still beyond standard for the majority of the "audiophiles" trying to max their system with their personal finances in their own garage

even this thread and it's discussion of science and practical application of difficult to find materials is not standard. it is a non-standard discussion of non-standard materials for a level of sound that is not standard, and not practiced in the standard/traditional consumer world

there is not even a simple reference standard that shows product name/type relating to frequency application

I challenge you to find a "standard/traditional" shop in your area that even can tell you what mlv, cld, etc is or what it does or how to get it and then put it in your car effectively.


----------



## c2insa

this is an example of how these experiments must be summarized in order for there to be a standard understanding of the treatment and its correct installation produces measurable and predictable reproduce-able results

http://www.auralex.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/lenrd.pdf


----------



## c2insa

and i offer this link to the only place i know offering scientific understanding of foam products and sonic affect:

Auralex | Performance Data


----------



## Darth SQ

c2insa said:


> nothing he's done is standard/traditional
> 
> ccf/mlv is not standard at any shop excepting a few that are beyond the performance level available to general consumers. it is still beyond standard for the majority of the "audiophiles" trying to max their system with their personal finances in their own garage
> 
> even this thread and it's discussion of science and practical application of difficult to find materials is not standard. it is a non-standard discussion of non-standard materials for a level of sound that is not standard, and not practiced in the standard/traditional consumer world
> 
> there is not even a simple reference standard that shows product name/type relating to frequency application
> 
> I challenge you to find a "standard/traditional" shop in your area that even can tell you what mlv, cld, etc is or what it does or how to get it and then put it in your car effectively.


I can name at least six where you live.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

c2insa said:


> nothing he's done is standard/traditional
> 
> ccf/mlv is not standard at any shop excepting a few that are beyond the performance level available to general consumers. it is still beyond standard for the majority of the "audiophiles" trying to max their system with their personal finances in their own garage
> 
> I agree with the majority of shops not being aware or having access to these tools. For that matter, the majority of shops are not truly knowledgeable in audio concepts in general, at least not the ones that I have been around. For the handful of shops I'm aware of that are knowledgeable, there are dozens I am aware of that are not.
> 
> However, these standards are well within reach of the average "audiophile" working in his home garage, if they do a little research. My very first audio build used these materials, as well as concrete/fiberglass/steel shot kick panels, and I built it myself. I simply took the time to properly research things first. Just do a search here and you'll find over and over that the cld/ccd/mlv formula is the standard answer here. Or check Second Skin Audio's page, Cascade Audio's page, or Sounddeadenershowdown.
> 
> even this thread and it's discussion of science and practical application of difficult to find materials is not standard. it is a non-standard discussion of non-standard materials for a level of sound that is not standard, and not practiced in the standard/traditional consumer world
> 
> What? Read the entire thread.
> 
> there is not even a simple reference standard that shows product name/type relating to frequency application
> 
> ASTM-E756 is the standard "reference" for testing vibration damping properties. However, in discussions with a few engineers that are outside of the car audio industry, we came to the agreement that ASTM-E756 did not provide useful information for the general public, and an alternative testing method was developed. That has all been gone through in detail in this thread. This includes obtaining frequency response information as well as decay information.
> 
> I challenge you to find a "standard/traditional" shop in your area that even can tell you what mlv, cld, etc is or what it does or how to get it and then put it in your car effectively.


I wouldn't bother, because there isn't a shop in this area that I would trust with any part of my car except finish work like carpeting something. That isn't the point of this thread.


Ok, maybe not the entire thread, but it has been gone over. There is a test rig, that is set up the same every time, and tests are run the same way, at the same temp every time. Samples are the same size as they are cut with a die, and there is a jig for placing the microphone in the same place. The ranking of products is based on the reduction in amplitude of the main resonant frequency, along with the decay performance of each product. Products with sketchy heat resistance are seriously docked, which I'm sure being in AZ you can understand. This thread is solely about constrained layer dampers, but has evolved to include a loose testing of a few mlv and other oddball materials.


----------



## c2insa

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I can name at least six where you live.


please list them here!!!

I've spent no less than a month trying to find a dealer here with experience, even started a thread in a few popular form that resulted in nothing.


----------



## Blackbeard

2Stub,
Your tests represent a valid approximation of the environment in which these products are to be used.

I find the results of your tests to be far more useful than specs ad infinitum.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The tests have proven that the basic specs provided by the manufacturers are pretty much useless. The formulation of the butyl is the most important part, and even if they revealed that, you would need experience in polymer engineering to know just from seeing the formulation what works best.


----------



## rton20s

Blackbeard said:


> 2Stub,
> Your tests represent a valid approximation of the environment in which these products are to be used.
> 
> I find the results of your tests to be far more useful than specs ad infinitum.


Especially when these tests have shown that you can't really derive any useful information from the specs. There is no single published parameter or combination of parameters that one can look to in order to determine which product will perform best. What we're left with is trusting this testing or trusting the manufacturers' marketing and myths that have been propagated through the industry for so long.


----------



## rton20s

Dangit, Chris! How many seconds did you beat me by? 

I knew I should have just kept my mouth shut.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^LOL such is the whole point of this testing. Was tired of trusting what other people wanted you to believe with no real evidence.


----------



## c2insa

and your testing is respected!

is there a thread for dispersion and/or absorption vs deadening?

I'm obviously moving outside of the purpose of this thread


----------



## c2insa

the purpose of the reference links to specs was to show an example of what a standard product provides as a guideline for choosing a treatment.

this testing shows that there are products that provide improvement but there is no reference for a car audio freak to go and choose a product based on data relating to the objective the freak has in mind.

example: freak wants to control 300 to 45 range (control mid-bass). how does he choose a starting point without a reference of some kind, whether from mfg or other?

deadening doesn't do it, so where does the freak go next?


----------



## subwoofery

c2insa said:


> the purpose of the reference links to specs was to show an example of what a standard product provides as a guideline for choosing a treatment.
> 
> this testing shows that there are products that provide improvement but there is no reference for a car audio freak to go and choose a product based on data relating to the objective the freak has in mind.
> 
> example: freak wants to control 300 to 45 range (control mid-bass). how does he choose a starting point without a reference of some kind, whether from mfg or other?
> 
> deadening doesn't do it, so where does the freak go next?


The freak then plays with his PEQ. 

Kelvin


----------



## Blackbeard

c2insa said:


> the purpose of the reference links to specs was to show an example of what a standard product provides as a guideline for choosing a treatment.
> 
> this testing shows that there are products that provide improvement but there is no reference for a car audio freak to go and choose a product based on data relating to the objective the freak has in mind.
> 
> example: freak wants to control 300 to 45 range (control mid-bass). how does he choose a starting point without a reference of some kind, whether from mfg or other?
> 
> deadening doesn't do it, so where does the freak go next?


I doubt any of the CLD/MLV products are meant to focus on such narrow ranges.

I think that the broad based control brought by these products does provide a more functional base to allow further adjustment with EQ as subwoof has noted.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep^. If your talking about absorbing in midbass frequencies, the material would need to be thicker than is reasonable in a car. Your better off negating peaks in response with PEQ.

Keep in mind testing isn't nearly done, and this is more of a dump thread and progress thread. The results will be published in a new thread, in PDF format. I was really hoping to have this done by now, but it has continued to grow in size and scope, and there have been more family/health issues than I would have liked in the time frame I have been working on this for. 

I have more than 30 different constrained layer dampers that are being tested for heat resistance and vibration damping effectiveness, 3 different closed cell decoupling foams, 2 types of mass loaded vinyl, black hole tiles, and the materials needed to make diy versions of them. Publishing the results in whole will require going through more than 100 tests, and comparing frequency response, waterfall plots, and heat testing results, and adding in factors like cost and weight for those people who value those items as well, plus organization of the results along with explaining the test methods, control factors, and limitations of testing.


----------



## c2insa

all comments understood and noted, however:

this freak will use peq as the last step. my approach starts purist and deviates where required. in other words, don't use processor until foundations are covered (freak foundations, not simple consumer install). after getting the best speakers and properly mounting and aiming them: 1-deadening, 2-sound barrier, 3-dispersion/absorption, 4-reflection, 5-crossover starting points, 6-timing, 7-rta, 8-reference material sound vs system sound tuned to ear for individual instrument musicality, 9-presets tuned for different source hardware

ccf, mlv, foams, in this thread are barriers and not deadening

personally, my vehicle is a van with tons of airspace. it has tons of room for me to try dispersion and absorption and is large enough for me to apply auratex studio panels and wedges in limited application. why stop at what is in this thread?

finally, OP has done groundbreaking work from a true consumer pov where deadening and soundproofing is concerned.

We cannot take a smart step beyond deadening or sound proofing without months of experimentation or at least an exaggerated mfg claim what frequency range a treatment applies to. I guess this means I will have to try to do this and perhaps share it in its own thread.

so my deadening is complete. is there anyone who can direct me to car audio interior treatment thread for dispersion/absorption?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There isn't such a thread, because most people don't have the room to use such treatments in the average car. It's not that it can't be done, for instance in your case with a van, but with room treatments, every different vehicle will need different products in different places. 

It's not that I wouldn't like to go down that rabbit hole, it's just I'm at the limit of my budget for that type of testing right now. It has been discussed as a future possibility.


----------



## c2insa

ok, if I dare decide to go there I'll get with you privately to get ideas on how my method, process, and results should be documented and measured and shared so that there is some kind of consistency between deadening and dispersion/absorption results presentation


----------



## Darth SQ

c2insa said:


> all comments understood and noted, however:
> 
> this freak will use peq as the last step. my approach starts purist and deviates where required. in other words, don't use processor until foundations are covered (freak foundations, not simple consumer install). after getting the best speakers and properly mounting and aiming them: 1-deadening, 2-sound barrier, 3-dispersion/absorption, 4-reflection, 5-crossover starting points, 6-timing, 7-rta, 8-reference material sound vs system sound tuned to ear for individual instrument musicality, 9-presets tuned for different source hardware
> 
> ccf, mlv, foams, in this thread are barriers and not deadening
> 
> *personally, my vehicle is a van with tons of airspace. it has tons of room for me to try dispersion and absorption and is large enough for me to apply auratex studio panels and wedges in limited application. why stop at what is in this thread?*
> 
> finally, OP has done groundbreaking work from a true consumer pov where deadening and soundproofing is concerned.
> 
> We cannot take a smart step beyond deadening or sound proofing without months of experimentation or at least an exaggerated mfg claim what frequency range a treatment applies to. I guess this means I will have to try to do this and perhaps share it in its own thread.
> 
> so my deadening is complete. is there anyone who can direct me to car audio interior treatment thread for dispersion/absorption?


^^^It's already been done.^^^

http://www.whitledgedesigns.com/

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ion/163412-nathan-east-listens-magic-bus.html

Contact the owner of the bus Jon W. and he either has or knows where to get exactly what you're looking for. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

c2insa said:


> ok, if I dare decide to go there I'll get with you privately to get ideas on how my method, process, and results should be documented and measured and shared so that there is some kind of consistency between deadening and dispersion/absorption results presentation


Just start your own thread and go into detail there.
This one's been derailed enough.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Weigel21

I greatly appreciate the daunting task TOOSTUBBORN has taken upon himself. I for one know that I don't have the sort of cash to toss into one product after another, not to mention time to install, rip out, and repeat. 

I'm looking forward to the end results and the new thread. 

I know that in hotter regions asphalt based products would be a HUGE disaster. And even colder area's it seems asphalt breaks loose before Butyl, however, it would still be nice to see the results of all products tested. I know i've used a few different products, only one of which (well, two) were butyl based, and I (luckily) never had any issues with the material coming off. 

This would lead me to be tempted to used such a product if deadening performance was among the better of those tested and the cost was noticeably less. Won't be deadening my car until next year, so I'll be very interested in seeing the results to make a decision at that point.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

c2insa said:


> ok, if I dare decide to go there I'll get with you privately to get ideas on how my method, process, and results should be documented and measured and shared so that there is some kind of consistency between deadening and dispersion/absorption results presentation


Don't PM that, start a new thread and let us all enjoy your journey with you.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

All products will have their results shown, asphalt or not. I just can't recommend anything that could fail. 


Stp-atlantic bomb is a two layer product, butyl, bitumen, then aluminum. During heat testing, the butyl stayed put and the bitumen layer fell off with the aluminum stuck to it. It's also the absolute best performing damper at room temp.


----------



## c2insa

i've already started the thread and will do my own thing, then


----------



## Weigel21

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> All products will have their results shown, asphalt or not. I just can't recommend anything that could fail.
> 
> 
> Stp-atlantic bomb is a two layer product, butyl, bitumen, then aluminum. During heat testing, the butyl stayed put and the bitumen layer fell off with the aluminum stuck to it. It's also the absolute best performing damper at room temp.


Yeah, they claim it's good up to 150*C for short periods of time. I'd say it'd only be good for floors. Still, I don't see it for sale anywhere in the U.S. though.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And even then, it wouldn't damp as well when it was hot, as something that's more stable at high temps.


----------



## Weigel21

Quite true.


----------



## Wesayso

Were the Silent Coat plots ever posted? Or was that one of the materials you had problems with regarding changes in temperature.
I've read the samples had a smell like asphalt based products. Never noticed that on my own damping mats. I was curious to see the differences in the 2 mm and 4 mm thick versions. Not that interested in the extreme version.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Silent coat plots haven't been posted, but they have been tested. Silent coat 4 mm performs significantly better than 2mm, I'm going by memory here since I'm at work but I believe 4 mm is the second best performing product period at room temp. I will be heat testing silent coat products this weekend. They did have an industrial grease smell, different than the asphalt smell, but I think that may be limited to the 5 mm bi-layer product, which tied 4mm in performance. I'm only waiting to recommend it due to no info being available that I've found on heat resistance.


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks, that's good to know. It is the affordable material of choice here for me in Europe and I am thinking of using it in my home speaker build. Looks like I have to fork out for the 4 mm version.
Very informative and interesting test you have here. Can't imagine the work involved in all this testing. Superb job!


----------



## Hanatsu

I've seen them... they perform quite good. Guess it's up to the heat resistance now ^^


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For home use I wouldn't hesitate a bit on the 4mm version, in fact the platter on my turntable is damped with that exact product.


----------



## douggiestyle

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Agreed completely, especially the part about not bothering unless your doubling.





Rudeboy said:


> That's correct: the improvement you get from adding a barrier depends on what you add plus *what was already there*. Mass Law predicts a 6 dB reduction every time you double the mass of the barrier, under ideal conditions.
> 
> The first layer of 1 lb/ ft² barrier will usually more than double what was already there. Let's say the existing sheet metal is .5 lb/ft². More than doubled by the first added barrier layer. Now we've got 1.5 lb/ft ². The next 1 lb/ft² barrier layer will not double this. You'd need to add at least 1.5 lb/ft². Third layer would have to add 3 lb/ft², then 6, 12, 24, etc.
> 
> It gets impractical very quickly and I don't bother if I'm not at least doubling. There is a secondary benefit to alternating CCF and MLV through multiple layers. Sound doesn't like to pass through layers of material with drastically different densities. There will be a benefit but it will be mostly in the very high frequency range since the layers are so thin.





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> My goal isn't to tell anyone to use or not use 100% coverage, just to make sure they know the returns are diminished. Whether those returns are worth it or not is up to each individual and situation.
> 
> 
> That said, people need to remember cld is a narrow band solution, which is why it is not the best method for reducing general road noise. Sure, it reduced 90hz by about 21db, but it did almost nothing below 50hz and above 300hz.


Thanks for doing this. I'm curious about the following scenario. In my case, I have an old roll of Raammat BXT around.

1. Is there a difference between putting on a layer of say Kolossus first, and then something like Raammat BXT versus putting Kolossus OVER the Raammat or is mass simply mass? I assume not because of the different properties and characteristics mentioned earlier beyond the constraining layer IE STOP Atlantic Gold.

1a. What kind of gain can we expect from something like 25% coverage using a premium deadener (Kolossus) and then 100% coverage with a cheaper deadener (Raammat BXT)?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Definitely put kolossus down first, the first layer determines the majority of performance. As for the difference the second layer would make, I'm not sure. That's one of those things that's material dependent.


----------



## Blackbeard

2Stub,
I'd like to know more about what I'm seeing on the REW charts (especially the waterfalls).

Are there any tutorials, etc that I could review to come up to speed on REW?


----------



## rton20s

Blackbeard said:


> 2Stub,
> I'd like to know more about what I'm seeing on the REW charts (especially the waterfalls).
> 
> Are there any tutorials, etc that I could review to come up to speed on REW?


Blackbeard, take a look at this post and the one that follows. It is the plot results for Knu Kolossus in both 25% and 100% coverage. So it will also give you a more complete picture of not just what adding the CLD does, but how a higher percentage of coverage affects performance. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945902-post276.html

When looking at the waterfall plots, take a look on the right side of the 3D graph. There you will see a series of numbers that increase as they move "out" or "toward" you. This is time in milliseconds. The 2D graphs show only the difference in response between a treated and untreated panel. The 3D graphs show the decay of resonance in the panel over time. Time, in this case, being 300 milliseconds. 

What is important to look for in comparing the graphs is that not only do you see a reduction in dB level on the 2D graphs, but that you see a quick (steep) drop off in the 3D graphs. The faster the level drops the sooner you panel stops resonating due to influence of the outside force (the speaker, in this case). Notice how the 3D graph in red carries the peaks out much longer and how they go away much faster in the green graph? That is what you want to see your CLD accomplish.


----------



## Blackbeard

Thnx Rtin,

I can see that now after your explanation.

Tell me if I am reading this part right.

The peak on metal is about 100db at abut 60 hz and decays to 70 db at 70 hz.

The peak damped is about 95 db at 55 hz and decays to 20 db at 70 hz.

Am I anywhere close? Or do I need remedial lessons?


----------



## rton20s

It is hard to pull exact numbers based on the graphs, but these would be my estimates. 2Stub might be able chime in with exact numbers once he is at home in front of the original files. 

*Bare Metal*
Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: ~85 Hz
dB @ Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: 98 dB
Peak Fequency @ 300 ms: ~84 Hz
dB @ peak Frequency @ 300 ms: 68 dB

*Knu Kolossus*
Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: ~74 Hz
dB @ Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: 86 dB
Peak Frequency @ 300 ms: ~52 Hz
dB @ peak Frequency @ 300 ms: 58 dB


----------



## Weigel21

EDIT

Damn it, looking at it again, yep, I was off.


----------



## rton20s

Yes, Chris (2Stub) can clear this up with the actual numbers. But I believe you are reading it incorrectly Weigel21. Because of the perspective created by the 3D graph, the grid lines at the back of the graph (0 ms) do not correlate with frequency response at the front of the graph (300 ms). You can more closely align the frequency response plot with the numbers at the base of the graph for determining the frequency and the right of the graph for determining dB.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Man, I'm gone for a day.

I probably won't get a chance to get on the actual computer tonight, but something to point out is that it's important to note that the peak at 0ms is not the same peak as the one that remains at 300ms. So to use the waterfall plots you need to strictly compare the peak at 0ms to the amplitude of that frequency at 300ms. For instance, look at how far 74hz decays from 0ms to 300ms. That tells you how well damped the panel is.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, now that I'm home. 

Dustin, you were almost dead on. The only difference is I would ignore the peak at 52hz. That peak is always there, on all of the graphs, and it doesn't change much from damped to undamped. The problem is its a difference peak than the original peak at 74hz, and while its true it does become a _new_ peak resonance, its not the original that the damping material has affected.

What you really want to look at is how much the original peak decayed by. So Dustins assessment of the bare metal waterfall chart is pretty much dead on. Without pulling the program up and just eye balling the graph, I'm happy with what he came up with. 

On the second graph you would find out where 74hz is amplitude wise at 300ms. In this case, its already decayed down to the noise floor. This is the reason the final results waterfall plots will be shortened to 100ms. Some products don't decay down to the noise floor until way after 300ms, but some do significantly before it.

So, the results should look like this.

*Bare Metal*
Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: ~85 Hz
dB @ Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: 98 dB
Peak Fequency @ 300 ms: ~85 Hz
dB @ peak Frequency @ 300 ms: 68 dB

*Knu Kolossus*
Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: ~74 Hz
dB @ Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: 86 dB
Peak Frequency @ 300 ms: ~74 Hz
dB @ peak Frequency @ 300 ms: 20 dB 

*20 dB is really an estimate because the noise floor is louder than the actual resonance at 300ms.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, now that I'm home. 

Dustin, you were almost dead on. The only difference is I would ignore the peak at 52hz. That peak is always there, on all of the graphs, and it doesn't change much from damped to undamped. The problem is its a difference peak than the original peak at 74hz, and while its true it does become a _new_ peak resonance, its not the original that the damping material has affected.

What you really want to look at is how much the original peak decayed by. So Dustins assessment of the bare metal waterfall chart is pretty much dead on. Without pulling the program up and just eye balling the graph, I'm happy with what he came up with. 

On the second graph you would find out where 74hz is amplitude wise at 300ms. In this case, its already decayed down to the noise floor. This is the reason the final results waterfall plots will be shortened to 100ms. Some products don't decay down to the noise floor until way after 300ms, but some do significantly before it.

So, the results should look like this.

*Bare Metal*
Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: ~85 Hz
dB @ Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: 98 dB
Peak Fequency @ 300 ms: ~85 Hz
dB @ peak Frequency @ 300 ms: 68 dB

*Knu Kolossus*
Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: ~74 Hz
dB @ Peak Frequency @ 0 ms: 86 dB
Peak Frequency @ 300 ms: ~74 Hz
dB @ peak Frequency @ 300 ms: 20 dB 

*20 dB is really an estimate because the noise floor is louder than the actual resonance at 300ms.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And on a second note, I was having a hard time figuring out how to test the Butyl Rope that Don from SDS sent me. Well, I figured it out.

Well, my turntable had been having a ULF problem due to the bearing design. There was a large cavity around the bearing itself, and it was only secured via the top of the plinth. Because of this, vibration from pretty much everything was easily transferred to the stylus, and despite it being so low in frequency that it was mostly unnoticeable except at high volumes, it was still there.

So, I filled the entire void as tightly as I could with the Butyl Rope. And it made a huge difference. Night and day really. Before, there was a resonance at 15hz, at -32dB in my vinyl rips. It was there in every recording. After putting the butyl rope in place, that resonance is now smoothed out significantly, with a peak at 13hz, and 51dB down. That's an improvement of 19dB. 

I'll load some pictures up either later today or tomorrow.


----------



## Wesayso

Do we get to see the silent coat plots after the heat testing? I'm a bit curious to see them with the original 300ms scale.


----------



## rton20s

Dangit, I knew the 52 Hz peak was a different peak and should have been more clear in my statements.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll get the silent coat files up this weekend, I'll also for now leave the scale at 300ms to be comparable to the ones that are already up. I'll only change that when posting the final results.


----------



## Blackbeard

2Stub,
A while back I had mentioned the possible use of 3M's foam in select areas of the vehicle. You had mentioned that this had been discussed in this forum. I am interested in what was posted on that subject and have looked for a posting but to no avail.

If it wouldn't be too much trouble to post a link, I would appreciate it.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Rigid 2 part foam like you linked can help, one member here noticed less noise from his windshield after foaming his a-pillars. He said foaming the rockers, a, b, and c pillars did almost as much as the mlv did.


----------



## Wesayso

I just wanted to confirm there is no smell on the 4mm Silent Coat. I have it stacked in my living room and would not get away with that if it did smell.
No one in my household has noticed anything. I suspect the 5mm multilayer could be the source of the smell?


----------



## lsm

I have some B-Quiet if you'd like a sample PM me.


----------



## SkizeR

Just curious if GP stfu has been tested


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lsm, thanks for the offer, I actually already have some b-quiet, it's cut out and should be tested in a week or so.

Skizer, stfu hasn't been tested, I haven't done much research but was under the impression this was an older no longer available product, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't had a whole lot of time to research outside of the products I have, it seems new products are popping up more frequently now.


----------



## SkizeR

Its all the craze on Facebook and has been causing a lot of controversy. If u could, please test that asap. I'll see if I can get u a sample


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ah, makes sense why I haven't heard of it, I keep away from facebook. Let me know what you find out, I'll try to have my wife look it up.


----------



## SkizeR

The guy who sells it is already asking where to send and how much to send.


----------



## Beckerson1

Ya would like to see how that stuff does. I've got 40 Sq feet in which I'm using in my trunk as we speak as I liked the idea of having the CLD and basically a decoupling layer built in one unit. 

I will say though idk how well it will hold up to heat (just doesn't seem to be as sticky as others I've used. 

If you can't for some reason get any I'm willing to part with some for testing

http://xplicitaudio.com

Is a source for GP STFU


----------



## Darth SQ

Yeah Chris your thread has caught the eye of many on the FB sq group. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yeah Chris your thread has caught the eye of many on the FB sq group.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


and its cause a lot of problems due to butthurtness lol


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Very long irritating day, I'll get back to you guys tomorrow. Just didn't want to ignore this.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Very long irritating day, I'll get back to you guys tomorrow. Just didn't want to ignore this.


FYI, the admins deleted much of the butthurt crap
We knew from the beginning that no one can please everyone so keep up the good and fair fight and I will keep following it over FB.



Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TaylorFade

PM'd about an entry


----------



## SkizeR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> FYI, the admins deleted much of the butthurt crap
> We knew from the beginning that no one can please everyone so keep up the good and fair fight and I will keep following it over FB.
> 
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


i know.. me and will were the ones who deleted it


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, sort of caught up. Haven't had a chance to look on facebook, but seems all the fun stuff was already deleted lol.

Took a look at STFU mat. Its interesting for sure. So, if I'm getting this right, the lead is attached directly to the aluminum, right?


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ok, sort of caught up. Haven't had a chance to look on facebook, but seems all the fun stuff was already deleted lol.
> 
> Took a look at STFU mat. Its interesting for sure. So, if I'm getting this right, the lead is attached directly to the aluminum, right?


You know physically looking at it I can't tell without taking the thing apart. To me it looks like its mixed in with the aluminum as there isn't a defining line from what I can see with the stuff in front of me. Heck it may not be aluminum it could be the lead.

To me it looks like 

Butyl layer (or whatever the stuff is)--- aluminum/lead layer- foam------

No off smell from what I can tell. I have it down stairs in my basement and it's not stinking things up.


----------



## Beckerson1

McKinneyMike said:


> From seller of this stuff on Ebay:
> 
> GP STFU Sound Deader
> 
> Introducing the new GP STFU deadner! Coming in at a total of 200ML of total
> thickness This will reduce road noise and rattles on any car and is a
> must in any installation.
> 
> *This quad layer deadener features 60mil of high purity butyl rubber combined with a 4mil aluminum, 16mil pressed barrier, topped with 120mil of acoustic foam*


Ok the aluminum and lead are one unit basically (lead being the mass). See if I can get a good clean cut pic of the stuff I have


----------



## McKinneyMike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4wbE31hGwc

Looks like it is some type of lead according to the guy that is bringing it to market.


----------



## Beckerson1

Little blurry but I'm no expert photographer:


----------



## Darth SQ

Beckerson1 said:


> Little blurry but I'm no expert photographer:


Mmmmmm.........brownies. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dammit Bret, now I want brownies! lol

It does look like its combined, very curious how well it works. That's a lot of effort to combine materials that way. 

Beckerson, I'll pm you in a day or two, many things on my plate the next couple of days.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dammit Bret, now I want brownies! lol
> 
> It does look like its combined, very curious how well it works. That's a lot of effort to combine materials that way.
> 
> Beckerson, I'll pm you in a day or two, many things on my plate the next couple of days.


KK

Not just any brownie BTW. Fudge frosted brownies


----------



## SkizeR

McKinneyMike said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4wbE31hGwc
> 
> Looks like it is some type of lead according to the guy that is bringing it to market.


yeah but the guy bringing it to the market has a tendency to over exaggerate, bad mouths other competiting products, make false claims, and sometimes flat out lie to make his products seem good


----------



## Woosey

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Mmmmmm.........brownies.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Makes me think of brown bread( deadener ).. does that still exist?


----------



## lsm

Woosey said:


> Makes me think of brown bread( deadener ).. does that still exist?


Brown Bread pulled out of NA about 10 years ago. Not sure if it's sold anywhere else... My go to product for many years and was sold by B-Quiet.


----------



## Dawgless

And done! 

Officially read the entire thread while working today. Not that I've been slacking at work, but there was some down-time where I could read all pages. 

Absolutely awesome thread! I'm just in the beginning phases of building a system in my 07 Forester and was beginning to look at options for sound deadening/enhancement. Seems as though my Forester is going to need a decent helping of CLD, CCF, MLV, BRB, ACV, BBD, CCA, and anything else I can throw at it. ;-)

What a journey you've been on since starting this thread... Talk about a range of good and bad during the life of this project. 

I'm looking forward to the finalized results.


----------



## bigAAA

Is there a "best" brand to go with if I'm in an extremely hot area?


----------



## seafish

bigAAA said:


> Is there a "best" brand to go with if I'm in an extremely hot area?


Heat testing has not been completed yet but is coming up.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Although I haven't done heat testing yet on this brand, sounddeadenershowdown's cld tiles are the only ones that claim to be able to withstand 400 degree heat.  And they are supposed to be able to do it for 8 hours straight. Nothing else claims over 305 degrees.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Although I haven't done heat testing yet on this brand, sounddeadenershowdown's cld tiles are the only ones that claim to be able to withstand 400 degree heat. And they are supposed to be able to do it for 8 hours straight. Nothing else claims over 305 degrees.


Good to know as they are also one of the best in terms of panel damping performance. I have always known that you pretty much can't go wrong with Dons' materials. And while they are a bit more expensive then average, they are not that much more expensive, especially considering all the how-to advice he offers for free on his website.


----------



## lsm

I'd like to know how the B-Quiet Extreme and Ultimate compares to others in your testing. I've used B-Quiet for 12+ years and have always had good results.


----------



## bigAAA

Thank you for the replies. Is there a best "bang for your buck" brand to go with? I can't go crazy with money right now unfortunately and would like to deaden my two front doors next month when I install a component system. I have heard good things about Raam BXT II...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

lsm, I have either extreme or ultimate, I'll take a look this week and let you know. I'm getting close on their test as well.

bigaaa, knukonceptz kolossus is the current budget leader. Barely BARELY behind the top performing product, and more than 25% less. It's one of the first products I tested, and nothing has dethroned it as budget leader yet. 

Raamat is cheaper, but performance is not nearly as good as the kolossus. For instance, kolossus reduced the amplitude of the main resonant frequency of the test panel by 6db more than raamat did.


----------



## nickshuk

bump


----------



## Second Skin

bigAAA said:


> Is there a "best" brand to go with if I'm in an extremely hot area?


Damplifier and Damplifier Pro are rated to handle 450 degrees and we have a long time furniture customer who uses them on their products before powder coating, They tell us Second Skin is the only product they can use because everything else melts off during this process. Hope this info helps you out and good luck with your project. http://store.secondskinaudio.com/damplifier-pro-36-50-sq-feet-bulk-pack-22-sheets/


----------



## Bigtown

I registered for this forum based solely on how incredibly awesome this thread and these tests are. Thank you for doing them.

I just spent an hour I should be working  reading this thread and had three questions - probably all are answered somewhere in here but I couldn't find them. If you wouldn't mind confirming:

1. Is the SDS referenced as your top performer Sound Deadening Showdown? That's the only SDS I can find.

2. Was the KnuKonceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus tested the 100mil variant? They have some thinner ones as well.

3. It doesn't look like you have tested the MurderMat BL that has replaced the MDK, but could you tell me if I just missed it?

Thanks so much - was about to spend a lot of money on a brand not among those three.


----------



## Jepalan

Bigtown said:


> I registered for this forum based solely on how incredibly awesome this thread and these tests are. Thank you for doing them.
> 
> I just spent an hour I should be working  reading this thread and had three questions - probably all are answered somewhere in here but I couldn't find them. If you wouldn't mind confirming:
> 
> 1. Is the SDS referenced as your top performer Sound Deadening Showdown? That's the only SDS I can find.
> 
> 2. Was the KnuKonceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus tested the 100mil variant? They have some thinner ones as well.
> 
> 3. It doesn't look like you have tested the MurderMat BL that has replaced the MDK, but could you tell me if I just missed it?
> 
> Thanks so much - was about to spend a lot of money on a brand not among those three.


1. Yes, SDS is Sound Deadener Showdown ->Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown

2. As far as I know the Kolossus edition is all 100mil. Knu has other deadener that is thinner, but Kolosus is 100mil -> Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition

3. I don't know the answer to #3


----------



## Weigel21

1. Yes, SDS is the Sound Deadener Showdown CLD tiles. 

2. Yes, as the thinner is called "Resonance Control"

3. Sorry, couldn't tell you, I've read through the thread myself but don't recall either.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have not tested the new murdermat bl, I'm unfortunately not able to pick anything up at this time. That said I'm working on designing a new purpose dedicated rig for testing absorbers.


----------



## Lymen

Whew, finally finished all the 30+ pages, great read!

Thanks for all the hard work ts2f!


----------



## Blackbeard

Is REW ever used outside of a standing state test environment ie. @Stub's lab and generated test tones?

Would it ever be used to measure the sound inside the vehicle at rest, at idle, at 30 mph and 60 mph or some similar scenario?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I wont be measuring in car. Without a wind tunnel, it would be impossible for the added variables of open road testing not to overcome the measured differences caused by a cld test, especially since cld isn't the main type of deadening used to fight road noise. A better test would be a sweep test, before and after deadening the roof, and looking at the decay times. I believe therapture has a thread like this, and it showed a big difference in decay after deadening the roof.


----------



## Blackbeard

Thanks. Going thru theraps posts looking for that.


----------



## SQLnovice

After only about a year this NVX CLD melted and slid downwards about 2 inches. It's on the outer door skin, but the ones on the inner door skin seems to be fine. Now I'm wondering how effective is this stuff.


----------



## Alrojoca

Did you clean the surface before you placed them on the door? thanks for sharing your experience with it.


----------



## SQLnovice

Alrojoca said:


> Did you clean the surface before you placed them on the door? thanks for sharing your experience with it.


Yea, I cleaned it with mild soap/water and alcohol.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I will make that the next product I heat test. On vibration damping testing, it performed in the mid range, near dynamat/dampifier pro etc. 

That does look like it failed due to heat, as the adhesive is not coming off, but the butyl itself is sliding downwards.


----------



## SQLnovice

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will make that the next product I heat test. On vibration damping testing, it performed in the mid range, near dynamat/dampifier pro etc.
> 
> That does look like it failed due to heat, as the adhesive is not coming off, but the butyl itself is sliding downwards.


If you need some to test, I can mail it to you. No charge. Just an fyi.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks, I still have enough left over to heat test. Very interested in the results, if it did that in the doors, imagine the roof.


----------



## Darth SQ

SQLnovice said:


> After only about a year this NVX CLD melted and slid downwards about 2 inches. It's on the outer door skin, but the ones on the inner door skin seems to be fine. Now I'm wondering how effective is this stuff.


........no thank you.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Champloo

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> GTMat Quadro
> 
> From an objective perspective, it does work better than GTMat Onyx. However, from a purely objective standpoint, based on the measurements I have made, it is still near the bottom of the list. The only butyl that performs worse, in the vibration testing I've done, is Onyx. The next worse butyl product performed more than twice as well (a toss up between Stinger Roadkill Expert and Raamat BXT2).


Why do you think that the Quadro isn't much better than the Onyx? I know you have the data but there's the additional foam in the Quadro that seems like it should get some CLD-type results. I was thinking of getting either the Onyx or the Quadro until I read your impressive write-ups TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL. Nice work!

I'm completely new to sound/vibration dampening but want to reduce the road/exhaust noise for my kids in the back seat of my wrx. I've read several different forum threads but it looks like there are different recommendations based on the desired result, like better stereo sound or reduced rattling. My main goal is to make a modified wrx sound more like a tesla in the back seat. What do the experts recommend?

Thanks!


----------



## kkreit01

Champloo said:


> My main goal is to make a modified wrx sound more like a tesla in the back seat. What do the experts recommend?
> 
> Thanks!


Trade. It will never happen.


----------



## Champloo

kkreit01 said:


> Trade. It will never happen.


Hey, if you will cover the price difference, let me know.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Champloo said:


> Why do you think that the Quadro isn't much better than the Onyx? I know you have the data but there's the additional foam in the Quadro that seems like it should get some CLD-type results. I was thinking of getting either the Onyx or the Quadro until I read your impressive write-ups TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL. Nice work!
> 
> I'm completely new to sound/vibration dampening but want to reduce the road/exhaust noise for my kids in the back seat of my wrx. I've read several different forum threads but it looks like there are different recommendations based on the desired result, like better stereo sound or reduced rattling. My main goal is to make a modified wrx sound more like a tesla in the back seat. What do the experts recommend?
> 
> Thanks!



The main thing is the results tell the story. If the foam was doing something to help damp vibration, it would have shown up in the results. Quadro is better than onyx, but there are many better products for close to the same price, and by better I mean significantly better. 


In order to quiet it as much as can be done, you need to deal with vibration first, which will be covered by cld. Anything past 25% is into the realm of diminished returns, but, that's not to say that performance gains can't be had with more coverage. You have to on a person to person basis experiment and decide if its worth the cost.

After that, you absolutely need a decoupling layer like closed cell foam, and then a mass loaded barrier. This can be any continuous barrier that is thin enough to fit in between your carpet/panels and the closed cell foam. Both the foam and barrier need to be 100% coverage to be most effective. Shoot for something with at least 1 pound per square foot, which is what the MLV everyone uses is around. That said, you could be adventurous, and use lead. Cascade Audio sells just this, 15mil lead sheet sandwiched between two layers of closed cell foam. You could fit two layers of this stuff where one layer of closed cell foam and mlv would fit. But, it will be heavy, at 2 pounds per square foot. It would be noticeably better than one layer though.


----------



## SkizeR

any testing with the GP deadener? really curious to see how that performs.


----------



## Beckerson1

SkizeR said:


> any testing with the GP deadener? really curious to see how that performs.


Tstf hasn't pmd me about the sample... I pmd him about it.


----------



## Bminus

Im really interested in the results of the BQuiet Ultimate. Its half the price per sq ft of most of the name brand stuff, and seems to have similar specs.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Beckerson, completely my fault, I have a few pm's I forgot to get back to, I'll do it now. 

Bminus, I'll get some updated results up by this weekend, including b-quiet ultimate.


----------



## SkizeR

they actually have a v2 coming out.. 120 mil butyl, 10 mil foil, 120 mil ccf


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The first thing I'll do when I get the v1 is check the actual measurements. Of the 2 products claiming to have 10mil foil, only one of them actually was right. It really doesn't matter aside from truth in advertising though, since the product than claimed to be 10mil but measured at 4mil performed better than the product that actually had 10mil foil.


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The first thing I'll do when I get the v1 is check the actual measurements. Of the 2 products claiming to have 10mil foil, only one of them actually was right. It really doesn't matter aside from truth in advertising though, since the product than claimed to be 10mil but measured at 4mil performed better than the product that actually had 10mil foil.


Is there any obvious reason why more isn't better?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The foil just isn't as important as the butyl formula. Butyl thickness isn't as important as butyl formula either.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The foil just isn't as important as the butyl formula. Butyl thickness isn't as important as butyl formula either.


In other words... there is no simple, fool proof way to gauge CLD performance based on specifications, visual or physical inspection. All we have to go by is independent testing like the work that TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL has been doing. For those willing to forgo all of the marketing, hype and brand loyalty, his testing has proven invaluable.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The thing is too, even if they told us what formula they used, we wouldn't know what to make of it unless two brands used the same formula, and one of them was known to perform well. Honestly, I don't think many companies use the same butyl mix. There may be a few, but those are the exception.


----------



## Beckerson1

TSTF:

I should have the GT STFU sent out tomorrow. I don't have a super easy (clean) way to cut the deadener so if its ok with you I will over cut by a 1/8" so you can clean up the edges if you so please


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep not a problem at all, I have a die that I use to cut samples, I end up using all 5 tons of one of my work trucks front tires to get the die to cut cleanly through it. Thanks again.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The thing is too, even if they told us what formula they used, we wouldn't know what to make of it unless two brands used the same formula, and one of them was known to perform well. Honestly, I don't think many companies use the same butyl mix. There may be a few, but those are the exception.


I doubt that many of the companies that market and sell the CLD have any idea what the formulations are for their product. I'm sure the companies that actually manufacture it do, but I think for the most part the companies who slap their name on the product and sell it to the consumers are just looking at profit margins and marketable "specs."


----------



## lowcel

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Beckerson, completely my fault, I have a few pm's I forgot to get back to, I'll do it now.
> 
> Bminus, I'll get some updated results up by this weekend, including b-quiet ultimate.


I'm looking forward to the B-Quiet Ultimate results as well.


----------



## Hortevin

Hi TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL!

Really thank you for what you do for the Sound Proof community!

I would like to know:

1.) What do you think about Focal BAM? As it has a structure completely different from the others (sandwish Butyl+Alu+Foam).

2.) If I put CLD with 100% coverage, like for example STP Bomb, will it act as a MLV?

3.) Do you test the new STP Bomb Aero?

If you are interested, I am making a compilation of research reports useful for our DIY Sound Proof; in order to make a new guide of sound proof, but based on science and on what car industry really do.
For example, I have anowkledge now the best composition of sound proof wheel arch (based on information of Volvo research).


----------



## SkizeR

Hortevin said:


> Hi TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL!
> 
> Really thank you for what you do for the Sound Proof community!
> 
> I would like to know:
> 
> 1.) What do you think about Focal BAM? As it has a structure completely different from the others (sandwish Butyl+Alu+Foam).
> 
> 2.) If I put CLD with 100% coverage, like for example STP Bomb, will it act as a MLV?
> 
> 3.) Do you test the new STP Bomb Aero?
> 
> If you are interested, I am making a compilation of research reports useful for our DIY Sound Proof; in order to make a new guide of sound proof, but based on science and on what car industry really do.
> For example, I have anowkledge now the best composition of sound proof wheel arch (based on information of Volvo research).


1) i dont think he tested the focal bam, but hes about to test the GP deadener which is also butyl, aluminum, and foam. not sure how they would differ performance wise though

2) no

3) i dont think he tested stp bomb areo


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I havent tested focal bam, yet, but I do have it to test. I also tested GTMat's Quadro, which is also butyl/aluminum/foam, it tested poorly.

Vibration damper will never work as mlv, as it is attached to the metal itself.

I have not tested bomb aero.


----------



## Hortevin

Thanks a lot for your answer!


----------



## Champloo

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ...After that, you absolutely need a decoupling layer like closed cell foam, and then a mass loaded barrier. This can be any continuous barrier that is thin enough to fit in between your carpet/panels and the closed cell foam. Both the foam and barrier need to be 100% coverage to be most effective. Shoot for something with at least 1 pound per square foot, which is what the MLV everyone uses is around. That said, you could be adventurous, and use lead. Cascade Audio sells just this, 15mil lead sheet sandwiched between two layers of closed cell foam. You could fit two layers of this stuff where one layer of closed cell foam and mlv would fit. But, it will be heavy, at 2 pounds per square foot. It would be noticeably better than one layer though.


Speaking of Cascade Audio, I saw that you were going to test some of their products before your accident - sorry about that and hope there were no lasting damages. Did you ever perform those tests? I didn't see the results in this thread or the search tool failed.
I'm looking for somewhere close to Seattle that provides good CLD, CCF and MLV and they look like the best bet, depending on how their products perform. Does anyone else have reviews of their products too?
Thanks!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I do have it to test, in fact, I have 3 products from them, the HD Vinyl damper, and their Vmax, both the version with 4mil foil and the version with thinner foil and a plastic layer that they temporarily substituted for it. 

Thanks for the concern about the accident, it actually turns out that was one of the easier things to deal with. No lasting damage, other then the frustration of dealing with insurance. Since then, my mom has had two surgeries, I've had a 6 month long blow out with my dad in which he went back on a legal agreement he has with me about the house, wrongfully accused me of stealing his bank account information, made several repeated threats over the house that he doesn't have the legal authority to do, and my mom's health has deteriorated to the point where she now lives with us (which is why the test rig is now smack dab in the center of the living room). And still to come this year, I have at least one, if not two surgeries myself, and my mom has three coming up. 

I have not gotten to test it, as the laptop I was using for testing is dead (in addition to dealing with the above). I'm waiting until my wife has time to transfer the laptop hardrive info to the desktop, so I can continue, hopefully this weekend. It was supposed to be done last weekend, but we had a light fixture, toilet, and garbage disposal all fail within the same week. And to add to that, my mom has surgery tomorrow and will be in a wheel chair for a month. So I can't promise anything at this moment, other than that I will keep working on it when it is possible for me to do so.


----------



## Champloo

No pressure whatsoever! Real life comes first. I know everyone that has looked at this thread appreciates the effort you are putting into this for everyone's benefit.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Everyone has definitely been supportive, I think I'm harder on myself then anyone else is on me (and my wife hates that), just felt like I needed to explain what the hold ups have been. I know a few people already knew some of it, and I've hinted at some of it, but I figured full disclosure would help explain better.


----------



## rton20s

I'm sure everyone appreciates the updates and disclosure Chris. You have already done far more than just about anyone else out there to demystify the subject of sound deadening a vehicle. I don't think anyone is going to be upset if complete, finalized data is delayed because "real life" takes precedence. If you guys need anything, you know how to get a hold of me.


----------



## country_hick

rton20s said:


> I'm sure everyone appreciates the updates and disclosure Chris. You have already done far more than just about anyone else out there to demystify the subject of sound deadening a vehicle. I don't think anyone is going to be upset if complete, finalized data is delayed because "real life" takes precedence.


This is completely correct. 

This thread started on 03-31-2013. I found and joined this site on 03-15-2014 just because of this one thread. 

I spent well over a work week (40+++ hours) searching for anything I could find about sound proofing and sound reduction on the internet. I came up with a ton of information. I learned about paths sound takes to annoy us and what can help to reduce sound. I found out that diesel frequencies are in the low frequency range which is the most difficult to control. I had found much of the theory of what to do to block sound.

The problem came when I looked at what works well for sound reduction. Although some materials like lead have well published numbers most products seem to exist on the "trust us it works" db reduction scale. I could find almost nothing to show that any "manufactured from different elements" product actually reduced noise let alone was better than another product. I also found that different MLV sellers showed different db reductions for what should be the same exact material.


When this thread is finished we will have a genuine way to know what really works well and what does not. While I am anxious for the completed results I am not impatient. 

Knowledge worth having is knowledge worth waiting for.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys, just to update, her surgery went ok, although twice as long as it was supposed to. Going to have to take her back as her cast has cracked from swelling in her leg as well.

On the computer front, we have the laptop apart, and will be able to transfer the data from its hard drive to the desktop tonight. 

I've also abandoned heat testing with the toaster oven, as much as I tried to eliminate the effect of the heating coils, I'm not confident enough that I did. So full final heat testing begins Tuesday in the big oven.


----------



## Thumper26

Figured this was most relevant here. Took some trim panels off to start on a new build, and the Fatmat rattletrap extreme that I put on in Sept 2012 was on just as tight and sticky as the day I put it on. That's in a black Cobalt that lives outside in TN. So, long term adhesiveness is no problem.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have some that will be tested. Regular fatmat was tested already, and was pretty much useless. 

I can say without a doubt, that the fatmat website is full of false info related to deadening.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll start full heat testing weds and thurs, have to take mom to dr's apts today, tuesday, and friday. I'll be heat testing every day that she doesn't have apts.

Didn't have time to transfer the info from the laptop hard drive due to getting my mom situated, but its ready. That will get done likely tomorrow.


----------



## SkizeR

any word on the GP deadener? sorry to keep bothering but the nuthuggers on facebook are foaming of the mouth at anyone who asks for some sort of proof or real data or real world expierence


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Nothing yet, haven't received any. I think beckerson was going to send some. I'll look through my pms.


----------



## Darth SQ

SkizeR said:


> any word on the GP deadener? sorry to keep bothering but the nuthuggers on facebook are foaming of the mouth at anyone who asks for some sort of proof or real data or real world expierence


Which FB group?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Which FB group?
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


almost any one of the hundreds. i dont keep up anymore. to exhausting trying to explain to people that thickness doesnt matter as much as they think, and that ccf on cld is pointless unless theres 100% coverage which is just a waste of money on cld


----------



## Woosey

SkizeR said:


> almost any one of the hundreds. i dont keep up anymore. to exhausting trying to explain to people that thickness doesnt matter as much as they think, and that ccf on cld is pointless unless theres 100% coverage which is just a waste of money on cld


If this can be tested together with the focal version that would be nice... Gp claims this is the exact same product..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I find that interesting, since GP claims there is lead in theirs, and focal does not.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Nothing yet, haven't received any. I think beckerson was going to send some. I'll look through my pms.


Ya sorry guys. Haven't had the time to get it sent out yet. I'm hoping to this coming Saturday if not sooner.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I find that interesting, since GP claims there is lead in theirs, and focal does not.


Claiming something is one thing. To me unless its mixed with the aluminum barrier there isn't any.


----------



## SkizeR

Gp I think USED to have lead in it


----------



## Woosey

SkizeR said:


> Gp I think USED to have lead in it


This is the case as far as I know


----------



## Beckerson1

GP STFU on its way to TS2F should be there by Monday


----------



## SkizeR

Woo!!


----------



## rxonmymind

PM. Maybe test some Hushmat? Wiling to send some. Top three shops here in Sac carry it. Not so much Dynamat anymore. Wonder why?


----------



## Lanson

Just as a quick review, so far the lead players (for the dollar and such) seems to be good ol' Don's SDS tiles (love em), the Knu Kolossus mat, and... ?

I was planning on pairing it with the Blue jean stuff from Home Depot, the radiant barrier, maybe with some Ensolite in there too.


----------



## rxonmymind

fourthmeal said:


> Just as a quick review, so far the lead players (for the dollar and such) seems to be good ol' Don's SDS tiles (love em), the Knu Kolossus mat, and... ?
> 
> I was planning on pairing it with the Blue jean stuff from Home Depot, the radiant barrier, maybe with some Ensolite in there too.


I have the Ensolite and just be aware it's THIN stuff. Good but thin


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

fourthmeal said:


> Just as a quick review, so far the lead players (for the dollar and such) seems to be good ol' Don's SDS tiles (love em), the Knu Kolossus mat, and... ?
> 
> I was planning on pairing it with the Blue jean stuff from Home Depot, the radiant barrier, maybe with some Ensolite in there too.


Sds, Kolossus are the top performers, and slightly behind those two is STP Gold. Murdermat MDK actually performed up with SDS and Kolossus, but it was discontinued, and their other products changed, so I don't know how it would currently perform.

STP Bomb is the flat out best damper to date, but it failed my first heat test. I'll be testing it again next week.

The blue jean stuff is great for filling voids (as long as they dont get wet), and radiant barrier is great for heat reduction. Neither of them are going to have a huge impact on overall noise reduction though.


----------



## douggiestyle

Hey, I just want to drop a quick note of thanks. Picked up Kolossus for my new project and it's a pretty considerable difference compared to BXT. Thanks for putting so much time and energy into this!


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Sds, Kolossus are the top performers, and slightly behind those two is STP Gold. Murdermat MDK actually performed up with SDS and Kolossus, but it was discontinued, and their other products changed, so I don't know how it would currently perform.
> 
> STP Bomb is the flat out best damper to date, but it failed my first heat test. I'll be testing it again next week.
> 
> The blue jean stuff is great for filling voids (as long as they dont get wet), and radiant barrier is great for heat reduction. * Neither of them are going to have a huge impact on overall noise reduction though*.


It's not substitute for the traditional stuff but can be used along side to achieve desired results. Or I should say improved result. As a replacement the overall sound isn't changed much and the above statement is true.

You have to look at it as what is the intended result. The denim is more cost effective at filling voids over using a bunch of CCF. The radiant barrier as you said if great for heat reduction or keeping heat in (granted the worst component is windows).


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^yep, I'll be using the blue jeans stuff myself in my wifes car to stuff the dash cavities, since the subwoofer is going right under the glove box.


----------



## rton20s

Yep, the denim insulation is a great tool for stuffing voids. This is the hatch on my xB. The CLD used is Kno Knoise Kolossus. The combination made a big difference for me. 









Chris, you know I have a ton of the denim left if you need if for the wife's car, just let me know.


----------



## Rolow

Did you test Knukonceptz resonance control? How did it do compared to the Kolossus?

Thanks for the great work. I love informative threads like this.


----------



## Orion525iT

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The blue jean stuff is great for filling voids (as long as they dont get wet), and radiant barrier is great for heat reduction. Neither of them are going to have a huge impact on overall noise reduction though.


OT

The Bonded Logic Ultra Touch is supposed to have absorption qualities similar to rockwool and fiberglass. The numbers I have seen do support this claim. However, the denim is fairly dense in comparison and applications over 4" are counter productive. Stuffing the product further increases density and decrease the overall sound absorbing abilities. But it probably stops the metal from wanging around. I plan to use some in combination with rockwool in my quarters where I have installed IB subs.

Back OT

I just received some of the Kolossus. I ordered off Amazon, did not expect until Monday, but I walked out my front door this afternoon, and there it was. It shipped free through USPS and got here in two days. Nice looking product, very faint odor, nice and sticky and seems well made.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Rolow said:


> Did you test Knukonceptz resonance control? How did it do compared to the Kolossus?
> 
> Thanks for the great work. I love informative threads like this.


I did test resonance control, it did not perform nearly as well. Dynamat, damplifier pro, Stp Atlantic silver and gold, nvx, kolossus, and sds all outperform it by memory. Resonance control is at the top of the tier 3 products as I'm calling them, which include resonance control, raamat bxt2, and stinger roadkill expert.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Orion525iT said:


> OT
> 
> The Bonded Logic Ultra Touch is supposed to have absorption qualities similar to rockwool and fiberglass. The numbers I have seen do support this claim. However, the denim is fairly dense in comparison and applications over 4" are counter productive. Stuffing the product further increases density and decrease the overall sound absorbing abilities. But it probably stops the metal from wanging around. I plan to use some in combination with rockwool in my quarters where I have installed IB subs.
> 
> Back OT
> 
> I just received some of the Kolossus. I ordered off Amazon, did not expect until Monday, but I walked out my front door this afternoon, and there it was. It shipped free through USPS and got here in two days. Nice looking product, very faint odor, nice and sticky and seems well made.


It is pretty dense, and you definitely should wear respiratory gear while installing in. Made the mistake of doing it without a mask when installing it in the first part of the attic above the garage, was spitting and shotting out blue for the rest of the day. I have thought about playing with it for absorption in the house. I know in my last car, stuffing the dash tight with carpet padding removed a lot of engine and hvac noise, but I doubt there was any absorption involved, more like blocking the path of the sound to my ears.

I've been impressed with Kolossus. It was the first damper I really messed with, and it was a huge red flag to me when I saw the foil didn't measure as advertised. Turns out, it just doesn't matter. I can say, the smell does go away, and it is very faint as you said. I actually have the under side of the plinth on my turntable covered with a layer of Kolossus, and the underside of the platter covered in a layer of Silent Coat 4mm and a layer of Silent Coat 2mm. (I didn't add layers for more damping, rather for more mass to help speed stability).


----------



## Orion525iT

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've been impressed with Kolossus. It was the first damper I really messed with, and it was a huge red flag to me when I saw the foil didn't measure as advertised.


Maybe I missed it, but what did it measure? The weird thing about this is that when I was going over old Rudeboy posts he had stated that 80mil was the sweet spot for the foil layer. It's the heaviest layer you can go with before you have to increase adhesive strength to hold the foil. But, increasing the adhesive strength compromises the dampening of the butyl.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

You meant 8 mil for the foil, right?

It was advertised at 10mil thick, but was actually 4 mil thick with a 2.5-3 mil plastic layer over that. I emailed them about it, and they didn't seem aware of it, but the results say that it doesn't really matter. It's within 5% of the performance of the sds tiles, despite being different thicknesses, weights, and constraining layers. That means they got something right with their butyl.


----------



## Beckerson1

Orion525iT said:


> Maybe I missed it, but what did it measure? The weird thing about this is that when I was going over old Rudeboy posts he had stated that 80mil was the sweet spot for the foil layer. It's the heaviest layer you can go with before you have to increase adhesive strength to hold the foil. But, increasing the adhesive strength compromises the dampening of the butyl.


I could be wrong but the butyl layer is where the magic happens hence why the foil thickness isn't what really determines the effectiveness


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

rton20s said:


> Yep, the denim insulation is a great tool for stuffing voids. This is the hatch on my xB. The CLD used is Kno Knoise Kolossus. The combination made a big difference for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris, you know I have a ton of the denim left if you need if for the wife's car, just let me know.


I'll let you know when we start deadening it. I've been using it to insulate the garage too, and noticed last time at lowes they seem to be phasing it out, so ill have to look for a new source. Still have 3/4 the attic left to do.


----------



## seafish

So do you guys think that the denim insulation or the 3m acoustic thinsulate would be better for stuffing dashboard voids??


----------



## Lanson

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll let you know when we start deadening it. I've been using it to insulate the garage too, and noticed last time at lowes they seem to be phasing it out, so ill have to look for a new source. Still have 3/4 the attic left to do.



UltraTouch 48 in. x 24 ft. Radiant Barrier-30000-11424 - The Home Depot


----------



## Orion525iT

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> You meant 8 mil for the foil, right?
> 
> It was advertised at 10mil thick, but was actually 4 mil thick with a 2.5-3 mil plastic layer over that. I emailed them about it, and they didn't seem aware of it, but the results say that it doesn't really matter. It's within 5% of the performance of the sds tiles, despite being different thicknesses, weights, and constraining layers. That means they got something right with their butyl.


Ya, thats what I meant. Now that I look, the top layer is clearly plastic. 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll let you know when we start deadening it. I've been using it to insulate the garage too, and noticed last time at lowes they seem to be phasing it out, so ill have to look for a new source. Still have 3/4 the attic left to do.


I was just at both the Lowes and HD, neither carry the Ultratouch. I remember seeing it at Lowes some time back though. I am sure one can still order it. I did pick up some Roxul Safe 'n Sound from HD, Lowes does not stock it either.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll let you know when we start deadening it. I've been using it to insulate the garage too, and noticed last time at lowes they seem to be phasing it out, so ill have to look for a new source. Still have 3/4 the attic left to do.


Like many stores they're probably having it online only. This allows them to open up floor space. A lot of places do this anymore. Kinda a pain in a pinch but you can have it shipped to you or to store.


----------



## country_hick

seafish said:


> So do you guys think that the denim insulation or the 3m acoustic thinsulate would be better for stuffing dashboard voids??


I used 8 lb 7/16" spillguard carpet padding and had great results. I used that product because it has a water barrier. That should protect against rust if you have a leak.

You can see the results here. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ound-reduction-journey-some-good-results.html


----------



## Orion525iT

I just wanted to mention some caution about the denim insulation, and other organic insulations. I am kinda glad I couldn't find the stuff. As it has been noted, the denim stuff is very dusty and one should use a respirator. Well I did a bunch of research. It turns out that the denim insulation, while being organic, is far, far worse for your lungs. The cellulose does not break down easily, if at all, once inhaled. Rock wool and fiberglass, by comparison are far more irritating (mechanical irritation), but the body is able to break down the fibers. This information comes from peer review articles. I will post up links if anyone is interested, but it might be best to do so in another thread so as to not clutter up this one.

You should use a good dust mask and protective clothing when handling any of them, but I plan to use Roxul, wrapped in a protective cloth layer where needed, and not worry too much. There are binders in the Roxul that help reduce loose fibers too. All in all, unless you are blowing a bunch of air past the fiber, it should stay put, but you can wrap the stuff in acoustically transparent fabric if you are worried. Way less expensive than thinsulate.


----------



## Beckerson1

Orion525iT said:


> I just wanted to mention some caution about the denim insulation, and other organic insulations. I am kinda glad I couldn't find the stuff. As it has been noted, the denim stuff is very dusty and one should use a respirator. Well I did a bunch of research. It turns out that the denim insulation, while being organic, is far, far worse for your lungs. The cellulose does not break down easily, if at all, once inhaled. Rock wool and fiberglass, by comparison are far more irritating (mechanical irritation), but the body is able to break down the fibers. This information comes from peer review articles. I will post up links if anyone is interested, but it might be best to do so in another thread so as to not clutter up this one.
> 
> You should is a good dust mask and protective clothing when handling any of them, but I plan to use Roxul, wrapped in a protective cloth layer where needed, and not worry too much. There are binders in the Roxul that help reduce lose fibers too. All in all, unless you are blowing a bunch of air past the fiber, it should stay put, but you can wrap the stuff in acoustically transparent fabric if you are worried. Way less expensive than thinsulate.


Always be safe while working with and handling insulation material.


----------



## rton20s

Absolutely wear a respirator, or at least a decent mask when using the denim insulation. I made the mistake of not using one when I was installing in my hatch (over head). The product isn't irritating at all on the skin, but it can be brutal when inhaled. I didn't even notice that I was breathing it in at first, but by the time I was done and for several hours after I could really feel it. And like TS2F said, lots of blue snot and spit afterward. I will not be installing more of the recycled denim insulation without proper breathing protection. Living in the Central Valley, I have enough sinus and respiratory issues as it is.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep I use a full 3m mask, goggles, long sleeves etc now when using it. I'm not set on what I'll be using in my wife's car yet, but it will likely be that or roxul.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

seafish said:


> So do you guys think that the denim insulation or the 3m acoustic thinsulate would be better for stuffing dashboard voids??


For stuffing irregular shaped voids like the dash, I wouldn't use thinsulate. Not that it wouldn't work, just too expensive for the application. I'd use it for relatively flat and shallow areas.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> For stuffing irregular shaped voids like the dash, I wouldn't use thinsulate. Not that it wouldn't work, just too expensive for the application. I'd use it for relatively flat and shallow areas.


Ddefnitely going to use it above the headliner to quiet down the lumber rack, and also behind the rear fold down seat (in addition to CLD/CCF/MLV on the rear cab wall. That being said, I got a great deal on a whole roll, so I have the square footage to put it where I want to...might even add some inside the door panels (it IS water repellant) and like I said a layer under the top dash panel. I am thinking that its "fibrous" design will help adsorb sound energy inside the various panels.

Thinsulate : Automotive OEM : 3M Europe


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If you have it, then no problem using it. I just don't think the cost is worth it for that purpose if you don't already have it.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If you have it, then no problem using it. I just don't think the cost is worth it for that purpose if you don't already have it.


Thinsulate also makes fantastic dashmat material. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Blackbeard

Something to consider in addition to stuffing insulation is the use of panels covering the bottom opening of the dash.

Panels like this were stock on Ford Excursions but not on the Superdutys. As it will fit the Superdutys, it is a popular item in sound deadening efforts in SD land.

TheDieselStop.Com - www.thedieselstop.com

In addition to adapting mine for the clutch pedal (set up for brake on automatics), I plan on adding Kolosuss and Lux Liner Pro to boost its effectiveness. And also use Thinsulate where I can stuff it before closing up the panels.

While these panels are an easy option for our Superdutys, I can imagine the concept can be adapted by creative DIYers.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can imagine it would Brett, I plan to use it myself in several spots, probably just not ones where I'm stuffing it into odd shapes. 


Blackbeard, I had completely forgotten about those panels, there are people here who have used those with kick panels to keep the sound from going up into the dash. I'm sure with a barrier on it, they would help noise reduction as well.


I got the STFU mat in today. Hmmmmmmmm. That is all. For now.


----------



## Blackbeard

I hadn't even thought about keeping sound from going up into the dash; just keeping it out!

As most of us don't like the idea of ripping out the dash to get to the last of the firewall, the panels are a good option for blocking/absorbing sound following a path from the top of the firewall.

Not sure how much it will help most cars (although I think it will do far more than Thinsulate, denim, etc alone) but for our diesels its a must.


----------



## Darth SQ

Blackbeard said:


> Something to consider in addition to stuffing insulation is the use of panels covering the bottom opening of the dash.
> 
> Panels like this were stock on Ford Excursions but not on the Superdutys. As it will fit the Superdutys, it is a popular item in sound deadening efforts in SD land.
> 
> TheDieselStop.Com - www.thedieselstop.com
> 
> In addition to adapting mine for the clutch pedal (set up for brake on automatics), I plan on adding Kolosuss and Lux Liner Pro to boost its effectiveness. And also use Thinsulate where I can stuff it before closing up the panels.
> 
> While these panels are an easy option for our Superdutys, I can imagine the concept can be adapted by creative DIYers.



Luxury Liner Pro.....yeah I used a little bit of that in my build. 

















Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## rxonmymind

^^^^Wow! Next time you go & purchase that much let me know first so I can buy stock in the company!


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## Darth SQ

rxonmymind said:


> ^^^^Wow! Next time you go & purchase that much let me know first so I can buy stock in the company!


I should've done my Honda Fit instead. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Here's what I can tell you though.
After all that treatment of AlphaDamp clds, Dynamat Xtreme clds, Luxury Liner Pro ccf/mlv, Thinsulate, and Ensolite treatment (used on the backs of all the panels and sealing off the doors, I can honestly tell you that at 75mph running BFG All-Terrains, I can carry on a conversation with my wife by just whispering.
It's so well deadened that I am now looking into a new product of window film that will deaden the glass cuz that's the next source of road noise asking for attention.
It's a sickness I know.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Beckerson1

It's the silence that gets you hooked


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Brett, you can't tease said window film and not link it lol.


----------



## rxonmymind

I know of ballistic window film. Pretty impressive stuff. The silence^^ is addicting and makes any commute be it a long trip or traffic jam bearable. Almost stress free.


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## seafish

rxonmymind said:


> I know of ballistic window film. Pretty impressive stuff. The silence^^ is addicting and makes any commute be it a long trip or traffic jam bearable. Almost stress free.


More info please... I am looking for window treatments that work on an acoustic level but do not necessitate replacing the windshield.

Bulletproof would be cool too…lol


----------



## Beckerson1

Then there are those of us who have tint. What, if any, complications may crop up?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My assumption would be that like with all damping materials, it works best directly coupled to the material you are damping. Anything in between would seriously diminish effectiveness.


----------



## Blackbeard

seafish said:


> More info please... I am looking for window treatments that work on an acoustic level but do not necessitate replacing the windshield.
> 
> Bulletproof would be cool too…lol


I don't know that replacing the windshield would help. In most instances the replacement would have the same acoustic properties as the original.


----------



## country_hick

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> It's so well deadened that I am now looking into a new product of window film that will deaden the glass cuz that's the next source of road noise asking for attention.


Speaking as the owner of a loud diesel that has already been quieted down somewhat the windshield sound reduction product sounds impossible and highly desirable. 

This kind of product is more elusive than the missing link.

Can you link to the product? I want to add it to my definitive sound proofing thread here. Ideas to consider when soundproofing your truck. - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> My assumption would be that like with all damping materials, it works best directly coupled to the material you are damping. Anything in between would seriously diminish effectiveness.


If it can be applied on the exterior that would be great. Not going to take tint off to deaden my glass. I'm not to that point. just though one should ask as either from stock or aftermarket you may have tint to deal with.


----------



## Darth SQ

http://www.s-lecfilm.com/eng/product/auto/saf/index.html


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Beckerson1

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Automotive - S-LEC™
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


interesting indeed


----------



## Darth SQ

I just changed the link above to a better description of the product.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Rolow

Where are you guys getting 3M Thinsulate?


----------



## seafish

Blackbeard said:


> I don't know that replacing the windshield would help. In most instances the replacement would have the same acoustic properties as the original.


There are "quiet" laminated windshields available that reduce incoming noise tat are made by various manufacturers for oem use, like Lexus or BMW. Wheteher they make one fro my truck IS an open question, but this film looks like it might solve that problem.

My preference would be for a l film that works on the glass interior in place of tint, as to looks like it IS available in a light tint ( SEKISUI CHEMICAL CO.,LTD?S-LEC Film Division). 
Preferably one could even use it on side opening windows. 

This ballistic film looks GOOD…any US availability or actual product users??


----------



## seafish

Rolow said:


> Where are you guys getting 3M Thinsulate?


Got mine from Don at sounddeadenershowdown.com

It IS an acoustic product, not "regular" thinsulate.


----------



## rxonmymind

seafish said:


> More info please... I am looking for window treatments that work on an acoustic level but do not necessitate replacing the windshield.
> 
> Bulletproof would be cool too…lol


Whoa! Joke...But it would be cool but WAAY to expensive. Lol Oh and let's be clear there is NO window film that is bullet proof. Nada, zilch. Ace makes some. However, any laminate applied like a window film would be suspect. I'd venture to bet this product would be better sealed in an autoclave and have it be part of the window. 
ACE | Products
Much like....
Laminated glass on vehicles such as my Lexus help towards quieting noise but I've not done any actual test to determine how much. During my research this is one of the things that appealed to me and the reputation of the RX350 being a quiet car. The irony is the noise withing the cargo area of this vehicle while not loud it's noticeable.


----------



## country_hick

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> SEKISUI CHEMICAL CO.,LTD?S-LEC Film Division
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


If I read that correctly that is only for the middle of a factory laminated windshield. It must be that or a similar product that is used in these new ultra-quiet cars. I would still like to find a film that just adds on to your windows that makes them quieter.

If I misread that do you know where this product can be purchased?


----------



## undone1

Rolow said:


> Where are you guys getting 3M Thinsulate?


3M


----------



## Blackbeard

Whenever we find the elusive film, I wonder if there is a way for 2Stub to test its effectiveness in his current rig (albeit with a mod to accommodate auto glass in the place of the sheet metal)?


----------



## seafish

Blackbeard said:


> Whenever we find the elusive film, I wonder if there is a way for 2Stub to test its effectiveness in his current rig (albeit with a mod to accommodate auto glass in the place of the sheet metal)?


I'm gonna give the US distributor of the S-LEC film a call on Monday morning to find out about availability and applications… In terms of testing it, obviously it would be awesome if TS2F wanted to, but he has ALOT on his plate already, plus this product DOES have some estensive testing done on it, albeit by the manufacturer, but at least it is something measurable, unlike the claims of the CLD distributors. 

I'll start a new thread about what I find out and post a link here to the new thread…I am VERY curious about this!!!


----------



## Darth SQ

country_hick said:


> If I read that correctly that is only for the middle of a factory laminated windshield. It must be that or a similar product that is used in these new ultra-quiet cars. I would still like to find a film that just adds on to your windows that makes them quieter.
> 
> If I misread that do you know where this product can be purchased?


I am hoping that the film can be sourced by itself.
It should be able to be applied to the inside of the glass just like window tint.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

seafish said:


> I'm gonna give the US distributor of the S-LEC film a call on Monday morning to find out about availability and applications… In terms of testing it, obviously it would be awesome if TS2F wanted to, but he has ALOT on his plate already, plus this product DOES have some estensive testing done on it, albeit by the manufacturer, but at least it is something measurable, unlike the claims of the CLD distributors.
> 
> I'll start a new thread about what I find out and post a link here to the new thread…I am VERY curious about this!!!


This is good. 
I'll leave it in your hands just post a link to your new thread when you make it.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for taking the lead on contacting S-LEC seafish. If TS2F is willing to do some testing, I'd be glad to help him out. I think we have a local glass guy that could work with us on getting an actual windshield, if it is needed for a test rig. We also have a few cars between us that we could use for in-vehicle testing. It would be interesting to see if the applied film did anything to help reduce reflections, but I doubt it.


----------



## Orion525iT

rton20s said:


> Thanks for taking the lead on contacting S-LEC seafish. If TS2F is willing to do some testing, I'd be glad to help him out. I think we have a local glass guy that could work with us on getting an actual windshield, if it is needed for a test rig. We also have a few cars between us that we could use for in-vehicle testing. It would be interesting to see if the applied film did anything to help reduce reflections, but I doubt it.


I don't think there is anyway it can. Physics simply don't allow for that. It might act as damping, but the surface will still be reflective. 

The only thing I have ever seen that works was transparent acrylic or lexan panels that had wholes drilled through them which acted as helmholtz resonantors to trap the sound. The panels are suspended a distance away from the glass. Pretty neat solution for glassed in atriums and other large spaces with lots of windows. Might be cool to try out for those who do pillar installs and dash installs, but one would probably see better results with directivity control.


----------



## rton20s

Hence my ending the paragraph with "I doubt it."  

Non-acoustically reflective (or rather less acoustically reflective) glass in our cars is a complete pipe dream. But it would be pretty awesome for people who, for whatever reason, are using factory dash speaker locations, etc.


----------



## Lanson

I just ordered the Knu Kolossus stuff so I'm going forward with that, but you guys talkign about the denim radiant barrier stuff really got me thinking, because I have major lung and allergy (related to lung) issues so I want zero participation in something that is in my car, with those potential issues being airborne in the car. I think I'll just press forward with an Ensolite order, or something I can depend on that will not be damaging down the road or install. TY in advance for that.


----------



## country_hick

fourthmeal said:


> I just ordered the Knu Kolossus stuff so I'm going forward with that, but you guys talkign about the denim radiant barrier stuff really got me thinking, because I have major lung and allergy (related to lung) issues so I want zero participation in something that is in my car, with those potential issues being airborne in the car. I think I'll just press forward with an Ensolite order, or something I can depend on that will not be damaging down the road or install. TY in advance for that.


I used memory foam based house carpet underlayment (spillguard brand)in my diesel. You should get almost nothing falling off it. The sound reduction was impressive. As I recall I went from 85db at idle to 67-68db with one layer and down to 63-63db (a scale) with 2 layers of 7/16" thick 8 lb a square foot material. It is thick and does a good job. In 10 or 15 years anything can disintegrate.

This material showed a lifetime warranty for use under a house carpet. I expect it would hold together fairly well for a long time.


----------



## seafish

I have left a message for the "automotive product" rep at US S-Lec in Kentucky asking about availability and application of the S-lec film. Have not heard back from him yet, though I expect to tomorrow.


----------



## Darth SQ

seafish said:


> I have left a message for the "automotive product" rep at US S-Lec in Kentucky asking about availability and application of the S-lec film. Have not heard back from him yet, though I expect to tomorrow.


:thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rxonmymind

seafish said:


> I have left a message for the "automotive product" rep at US S-Lec in Kentucky asking about availability and application of the S-lec film. Have not heard back from him yet, though I expect to tomorrow.






PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Nice find Bret.


----------



## Darth SQ

rxonmymind said:


> Nice find Bret.


Thx. 
I'm very curious to see where this goes too. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

Well, I left another message at noon for the "automotive products" rep and then when I did not hear back from him by the end of the day, left a message for a person in tech support regarding applications of this film. Def a little frustrating that there have been no calls back since I am professional in my manner and approach in a cold call. That beign said, hopefully hear back tomorrow from one or the other department, and if not will try email.


----------



## seafish

Finally got through to a secretary today who let me know what the automotive products rep is "out of the office" but she gave me his email address and said that I should email him with my questions, so that's what Im going to do next.


----------



## rxonmymind

^^^^Appreciate your effort in tracking this down.


----------



## Darth SQ

seafish said:


> Finally got through to a secretary today who let me know what the automotive products rep is "out of the office" but she gave me his email address and said that I should email him with my questions, so that's what Im going to do next.


Ditto on the appreciation part.
I'm thinking "group buy" if we can get our hands on it. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

OK,the Seksui automotive products rep finally called me back this morning. He was both apologetic about missing the earlier calls, as well as more then willing to answer my more then several questions. Of course, there is both good news and bad news--

The BAD news first is simple. S-Lec Acoustic (and/or Solar) Interlayer Film is sold by the TON to both oem and aftermarket windshield manufacturers. It MUST be installed as an interlayer lamination in a controlled autoclave environment, as part of the windshield manufacturing process. It simply CANNOT be applied to the outside or inside of a windshield like other window tint films. The architectural version works the same way…it is sold to window manufacturers to be used as part of the manufacturing process.

Now the good news, MANY oem and aftermarket manufacturers DO use the product for oem and replacement windshields. He sells this product to, among others, Safelite, PGW, Carlex, AGC, Guardian and more. He asked me what vehicle I had and was able to tell me with certainty that SOMEONE uses their film product to make a windshield for my specific application, a 2005 Dodge truck. Unfortunately, due to confidentiality, he could not tell me WHO does so, so please know there is ZERO point in calling him up to find out about your specific windshield apl;icaiton using their product. Obviously, he does NOT want to hear from very single vehicle owner/ SQ enthusiast trying to track down a windshield that uses the S-Lec film technology. However, he DID tell me that it should be relatively easy for anyone to talk with any windshield insatller/distributor to find a vehicle specific windshield that DOES use their product-- S-Lec Sound Control film, S-Lec Solar Control Film, as well as S-Lec Sound and Solar Film--

SEKISUI CHEMICAL CO.,LTD?S-LEC Film Division

Of course, you would want to deal only with a reputable windshield distributor/installer and demand some sort of documentation, but that IS the GOOD news…this product IS available in aftremarket windshields for some vehicles. And I am going to venture, that if it IS indeed available for my 2005 Dodge truck, it is more then likely available for much more common cars like Toyotas, Hondas, etc. Of course, if you drive a Lexus, it is more then likely already part of your car, given that they pay so much attention to sound reduction. It is ALSO already included in the Honda Insight, Subaru Forester and other vehicles-

SEKISUI CHEMICAL CO.,LTD?S-LEC Film Division

OK, all that being said, I am still going to email him sometime next week and still gather some more information on this film…he has some vids and brochures that he is willing to send me. I am also HOPING that he might send me an actual sample that I can then pass on to TS2F for dB testing…if I heard him correctly, he hinted that he might be able to do something like that. ALSO, he says that he will consider forwarding the idea of manufacturing an aftermarket film that incorporates the same properties but that might be installed at an afermarket level other then manufacturer. I DID point out the potential SQ vehicular market for them. He told me that the Sekisui engineers in Japan are always looking for new ideas, but obviously I wouldn't hold my breath for avaialibilty of such a film any time in the endear future,as I am sure the R&D would stretch several years at last with a company of this size.

Well, that's about it…for now I decided to post here because I did not necessarily want every T,D&H trying to call Sekisui for vehicle specific applications availibulty. PPI AC, if you want to move this post to a new thread and link to it, I will leave it at your discretion, but I do not think that it is necessary at this point in time…if you do, perhaps you can edit it to make sure that folks do not swamp Seksui's one man US automotive products distributor with phone calls. REMEMBER, he sells TONNAGE of this stuff..lol


----------



## rxonmymind

^^^Good info. Thank you.


----------



## Lanson

I'm sure it is extremely similar to the sound reduction glass that's already in my Flex. But thing is, it can't do squat for interior deadening. Just dB reduction from ambient noise outside. Whoop-de-do.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Half of the point of deadening is reducing outside ambient noise, in fact I'd argue that's more than half of the point. If that wasn't the point, there would be no use for mlv.


----------



## Darth SQ

fourthmeal said:


> I'm sure it is extremely similar to the sound reduction glass that's already in my Flex. But thing is, it can't do squat for interior deadening. Just dB reduction from ambient noise outside. Whoop-de-do.


You're missing the point.
After all the sound deadening I've done which is extensive to say the least, and I will go as far as saying there's likely not another daily driven vehicle on the planet loaded up with more deadening material than my Suburban, there comes a point when the glass is the next obvious issue. 
To have a product that would apply to the glass like window tint and reduce ambient noise another 5db is much bigger than a "whoopdedo" and is something I would buy tomorrow. 
And if it came in shades of regular window tint, omg that would be beyond awesome.

And thank you seafish for the follow up. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Half of the point of deadening is reducing outside ambient noise, in fact I'd argue that's more than half of the point. If that wasn't the point, there would be no use for mlv.


I know right? 
wtf....


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Quick question, anyone want me to try ballistic hollow point? It's best buys new in stock deadener, they replaced dynamat with this stuff. It's insanely expensive, at $7.5 a square foot for the trunk kit size, and more than $14 a square foot for individual sheets.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Quick question, anyone want me to try ballistic hollow point? It's best buys new in stock deadener, they replaced dynamat with this stuff. It's insanely expensive, at $7.5 a square foot for the trunk kit size, and more than $14 a square foot for individual sheets.


That's ridiculous. Hell ya!!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ahh, I see, best buy charges double what sonic does for the stuff. Still.... And hollow point is ballistic's mid level damper


----------



## Lanson

Sorry I mean whoop-de-do for me, because I already have that glass.

I was sorta hoping for an inner tint-like film that reduced noise in a deadening-like way if that could exist, not a laminate that goes between panes of glass which is already part of my ride. Now I thought I read that product correctly, it is a laminate for between glass panes, not to be applied like I would have hoped.

Quote:
" It MUST be installed as an interlayer lamination in a controlled autoclave environment, as part of the windshield manufacturing process. It simply CANNOT be applied to the outside or inside of a windshield like other window tint films. The architectural version works the same way…it is sold to window manufacturers to be used as part of the manufacturing process."

This is not what would make a difference you and I want, hence the whoop-de-do from me.


But yes, OMG if someone could make it a window film like tint, that would be a really nice thing.



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> You're missing the point.
> After all the sound deadening I've done which is extensive to say the least, and I will go as far as saying there's likely not another daily driven vehicle on the planet loaded up with more deadening material than my Suburban, there comes a point when the glass is the next obvious issue.
> To have a product that would apply to the glass like window tint and reduce ambient noise another 5db is much bigger than a "whoopdedo" and is something I would buy tomorrow.
> And if it came in shades of regular window tint, omg that would be beyond awesome.
> 
> And thank you seafish for the follow up. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I believe the guy said that he would forward the request for a tint style window damping material and see what the engineers say.

That said, it's nice to know that aftermarket brands have acoustic glass for cars that didn't come with it. For instance, my Kia's side windows are acoustic glass, but I don't believe the windshield is. If not, I would be willing to buy one.


----------



## SQLnovice

My CLD is melting and slowly leaking out. 









I noticed this black stuff on the front of the driver's and passenger door and taught it was odd. After looking inside and under the door, I realized it was coming from the melted CLD on the outer door skin. See post #847 if interested.


----------



## Woosey

seafish said:


> OK,the Seksui automotive products rep finally called me back this morning. He was both apologetic about missing the earlier calls, as well as more then willing to answer my more then several questions. Of course, there is both good news and bad news--
> 
> The BAD news first is simple. S-Lec Acoustic (and/or Solar) Interlayer Film is sold by the TON to both oem and aftermarket windshield manufacturers. It MUST be installed as an interlayer lamination in a controlled autoclave environment, as part of the windshield manufacturing process. It simply CANNOT be applied to the outside or inside of a windshield like other window tint films. The architectural version works the same way…it is sold to window manufacturers to be used as part of the manufacturing process.
> 
> Now the good news, MANY oem and aftermarket manufacturers DO use the product for oem and replacement windshields. He sells this product to, among others, Safelite, PGW, Carlex, AGC, Guardian and more. He asked me what vehicle I had and was able to tell me with certainty that SOMEONE uses their film product to make a windshield for my specific application, a 2005 Dodge truck. Unfortunately, due to confidentiality, he could not tell me WHO does so, so please know there is ZERO point in calling him up to find out about your specific windshield apl;icaiton using their product. Obviously, he does NOT want to hear from very single vehicle owner/ SQ enthusiast trying to track down a windshield that uses the S-Lec film technology. However, he DID tell me that it should be relatively easy for anyone to talk with any windshield insatller/distributor to find a vehicle specific windshield that DOES use their product-- S-Lec Sound Control film, S-Lec Solar Control Film, as well as S-Lec Sound and Solar Film--
> 
> SEKISUI CHEMICAL CO.,LTD?S-LEC Film Division
> 
> Of course, you would want to deal only with a reputable windshield distributor/installer and demand some sort of documentation, but that IS the GOOD news…this product IS available in aftremarket windshields for some vehicles. And I am going to venture, that if it IS indeed available for my 2005 Dodge truck, it is more then likely available for much more common cars like Toyotas, Hondas, etc. Of course, if you drive a Lexus, it is more then likely already part of your car, given that they pay so much attention to sound reduction. It is ALSO already included in the Honda Insight, Subaru Forester and other vehicles-
> 
> SEKISUI CHEMICAL CO.,LTD?S-LEC Film Division
> 
> OK, all that being said, I am still going to email him sometime next week and still gather some more information on this film…he has some vids and brochures that he is willing to send me. I am also HOPING that he might send me an actual sample that I can then pass on to TS2F for dB testing…if I heard him correctly, he hinted that he might be able to do something like that. ALSO, he says that he will consider forwarding the idea of manufacturing an aftermarket film that incorporates the same properties but that might be installed at an afermarket level other then manufacturer. I DID point out the potential SQ vehicular market for them. He told me that the Sekisui engineers in Japan are always looking for new ideas, but obviously I wouldn't hold my breath for avaialibilty of such a film any time in the endear future,as I am sure the R&D would stretch several years at last with a company of this size.
> 
> Well, that's about it…for now I decided to post here because I did not necessarily want every T,D&H trying to call Sekisui for vehicle specific applications availibulty. PPI AC, if you want to move this post to a new thread and link to it, I will leave it at your discretion, but I do not think that it is necessary at this point in time…if you do, perhaps you can edit it to make sure that folks do not swamp Seksui's one man US automotive products distributor with phone calls. REMEMBER, he sells TONNAGE of this stuff..lol


The Sekisui s-lec and alveo( foams ) factory is right around the corner here, I drive by them almost every day.. ( Roermond in The Netherlands)


----------



## Lanson

That sucks so much.

I've found Goo Gone will clean it up but IMHO, you will probably have to pull all of that out to keep it from happening more and more.



SQLnovice said:


> My CLD is melting and slowly leaking out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed this black stuff on the front of the driver's and passenger door and taught it was odd. After looking inside and under the door, I realized it was coming from the melted CLD on the outer door skin. See post #847 if interested.


----------



## Lanson

For people wanting to know what CLD was melting, here's your post.

I wonder if Sonic Electronix needs to be informed, and see if they have anything to say about it.



SQLnovice said:


> After only about a year this NVX CLD melted and slid downwards about 2 inches. It's on the outer door skin, but the ones on the inner door skin seems to be fine. Now I'm wondering how effective is this stuff.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I think they definitely need to be notified, it's not even summer yet.


----------



## rxonmymind

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> You're missing the point.
> After all the sound deadening I've done which is extensive to say the least, and I will go as far as saying there's likely not another daily driven vehicle on the planet loaded up with more deadening material than my Suburban, there comes a point when the glass is the next obvious issue.
> To have a product that would apply to the glass like window tint and reduce ambient noise another 5db is much bigger than a "whoopdedo" and is something I would buy tomorrow.
> And if it came in shades of regular window tint, omg that would be beyond awesome.
> 
> And thank you seafish for the follow up. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Ok, so thinking about this and being it's a DIY site the only way to have this come to fruition quicker is to improvise. How about sourcing some VERY thin mass loaded vinyl? See where this is going? HAVE to put some UV tint blocker in front of that. But how to pair it?


----------



## Darth SQ

rxonmymind said:


> O, so thinking about this and being it's a DIY site the only way to have this come to fruition quicker is to improvise. How about sourcing some VERY thin mass loaded vinyl?


I looked into it and found some but the stuff scratches up way to easily for automotive use IMO.
I will keep looking....


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rxonmymind

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I looked into it and found some but the stuff scratches up way to easily for automotive use IMO.
> I will keep looking....
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Thing is the clear MLV would have to be sandwiched in between the UV tint. This way it wouldn't scratch up so easily and having multiple layers wouldn't be a bad idea.


----------



## SQLnovice

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I think they definitely need to be notified, it's not even summer yet.


I'll contact them, because I still have about 20 sq ft of this stuff. 
I just want to say sonic has been excellent to me in the past and I'm not just bashing them. I just want to inform members on here before they spend their hard earned $$ on this particular item.


----------



## usman pribadi

So what would You CLD per piece consistency standards for weight-specific and consistent?


----------



## Darth SQ

rxonmymind said:


> Thing is the clear MLV would have to be sandwiched in between the UV tint. This way it wouldn't scratch up so easily and having multiple layers wouldn't be a bad idea.


Now that's not a bad idea. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

usman pribadi said:


> So what would You CLD per piece consistency standards for weight-specific and consistent?


I'm not quite what your question is?


----------



## rxonmymind

Decided to throw my 2¢ out there and see what this stuff was about. Thanks a bunch to 2STF for all his hard work and coming up with some leaders. 
Initial impressions are positive from the beginning to the end point. See I forgot to add the special code for the free shipping order and wrote them back after I placed it and they still honored the refund and free shipping. 
I especially like how they layer each cld like a deli order to keep from them sticking together. Noticeably thicker than Hushmat and feels much more solid. 
Thanks again. 
P.S. My daughter LOVES sticker. Lol...


----------



## Orion525iT

rxonmymind said:


> Thing is the clear MLV would have to be sandwiched in between the UV tint. This way it wouldn't scratch up so easily and having multiple layers wouldn't be a bad idea.


It's not that easy (if that is at all easy). The vinyl by itself wont do much. There must be a layer to decouple, so some sort of transparent decoupler will be in the mix. Maybe a tinted decoupler? I don't know of any transparent foams. This stuff will get thick and heavy in a hurry, putting strain on the window motor/regulator mechanism. Also, anybody who has applied tint knows that the stuff slides around easy enough to position the tint, but can also peel away and slide down if one is not careful. No way something as heavy as would be needed here would stay put long enough to dry.


----------



## Beckerson1

fourthmeal said:


> For people wanting to know what CLD was melting, here's your post.
> 
> I wonder if Sonic Electronix needs to be informed, and see if they have anything to say about it.


They probably will tell you what they told me about the NVX amp I got (plexiglass scratched from factory). They can only say something to the manufacture about it. As to what happens is up to them. They may refund you though.... 

Worth a try


----------



## Beckerson1

TSTF has the GP STFU made it there yet?


----------



## seafish

Orion525iT said:


> It's not that easy (if that is at all easy). The vinyl by itself wont do much. There must be a layer to decouple, so some sort of transparent decoupler will be in the mix. Maybe a tinted decoupler? I don't know of any transparent foams. This stuff will get thick and heavy in a hurry, putting strain on the window motor/regulator mechanism. Also, anybody who has applied tint knows that the stuff slides around easy enough to position the tint, but can also peel away and slide down if one is not careful. No way something as heavy as would be needed here would stay put long enough to dry.


Let alone trying to see clearly through it all.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Beckerson1 said:


> TSTF has the GP STFU made it there yet?


Yep, I got it. Need to take it to work and cut it this week, along with a few other brands.


----------



## rxonmymind

Orion525iT said:


> It's not that easy (if that is at all easy). The vinyl by itself wont do much. There must be a layer to decouple, so some sort of transparent decoupler will be in the mix. Maybe a tinted decoupler? I don't know of any transparent foams. This stuff will get thick and heavy in a hurry, putting strain on the window motor/regulator mechanism. Also, anybody who has applied tint knows that the stuff slides around easy enough to position the tint, but can also peel away and slide down if one is not careful. No way something as heavy as would be needed here would stay put long enough to dry.


I understand about tint being slippery. That would have to be solved on a trial & error basis with the added weight. However, a good starting point would be a cling type clear plastic such as this
http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Window-Film-3460013-Stick/dp/B00CRMLEY0

Or this
http://www.transilwrap.com/films-applications/graphic-printing/clings-pressure-sensitive. Not sure of the correct adhesion to use in order to sandwich it between two tints. Obviously get a tint that's light.
Just throwing out ideas. I see these in businesses a lot. Some are even tinted.


----------



## Lanson

rxonmymind said:


> Decided to throw my 2¢ out there and see what this stuff was about. Thanks a bunch to 2STF for all his hard work and coming up with some leaders.
> Initial impressions are positive from the beginning to the end point. See I forgot to add the special code for the free shipping order and wrote them back after I placed it and they still honored the refund and free shipping.
> I especially like how they layer each cld like a deli order to keep from them sticking together. Noticeably thicker than Hushmat and feels much more solid.
> Thanks again.
> P.S. My daughter LOVES sticker. Lol...


Yeah I got my order last night, damn what a heavy box, lol. That's quite a stretch for a priority usps flat rate box.


----------



## Blackbeard

rxonmymind said:


> Whoa! Joke...But it would be cool but WAAY to expensive. Lol Oh and let's be clear there is NO window film that is bullet proof. Nada, zilch. Ace makes some. However, any laminate applied like a window film would be suspect. I'd venture to bet this product would be better sealed in an autoclave and have it be part of the window.
> ACE | Products
> Much like....
> Laminated glass on vehicles such as my Lexus help towards quieting noise but I've not done any actual test to determine how much. During my research this is one of the things that appealed to me and the reputation of the RX350 being a quiet car. The irony is the noise withing the cargo area of this vehicle while not loud it's noticeable.


Came across an old DIY link on acoustic film that reference Ace Security:

_http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/54256-sound-deadening-window-film.html_

Thread is from 2009 and makes some pretty bold claims. And then seems to drift away w/ no conclusion.

*Re: Sound Deadening Window Film 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ace Security laminates-Automobile Security film | Window Films

This company states a 4db reduction in noise thru the window. That's worth something if true. On top of that you get some rather difficult to break windows. haha.

I bet the ACE security product is a copycat of Trosifol, which is a PVB (polyvinyl butyral) material with similar 4db noise reduction capability:

http://www.trosifol.com/fileadmin/pd...gl_10_2008.pdf *

The Ace link does not take you to Ace but to Glass Essentials and a missing page. After a bit of exploring, I came across this page about the film and thicknesses but there does not seem to be a reference to sound deadening.

_Technical Specifications_

Glass Essential may be another resource yet to consider.


----------



## Beckerson1

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Yep, I got it. Need to take it to work and cut it this week, along with a few other brands.


Good deal.


----------



## Duckstu

The most extensive test I have seen was this one.

http://users.actrix.co.nz/dougal.ellen/forums/Sound_Deadener_Showdown.pdf

He tested a lot of them,.. in heat,.. testing whether they got gooey and slid out of place,.. off-gassing,.. mass, v.s cost etc. (Asphalt products off-gas and smell,.. and slip out of place in high heat, such as in a closed car in a parking lot in the summer)

The best two were close. Dynamat Extreme and Damplifier Pro. Each being equal with the Damplifier having a small edge in heat (although well outside the temp range it will ever see), and it was also being able to be repositioned soon after application,.... and when re-applied would still reach it's maximum bonding strength after an hour (very handy). 

On top of that,.. the Damplifier was 70% of the cost. It pretty much came out the clear winner. I bought the regular Damplifier (cheaper and thinner than the Pro) and used one layer everywhere of concern,.. and a second layer in key areas.

There are new ones on this list that aren't featured in this guy's test. He tests;

Brown Bread
FatMat
E-Dead V1 
E-Dead V1SE
B-Quiet Extreme
B-Quiet Ultimate
RAAMmat BTX60
Damplifier Pro
Damplifier Extreme
Dynamat origional
Dynamat Extreme

His conclusions were that;
The *Highest Quality Produc*t was the Damplifier products by Second Skin Audio

And the *Best Value* was the RAAMmat BXT


----------



## undone1

Don aka Rudeboy done that test...now his product is the best in this test...


----------



## Duckstu

Any idea where the results can be found?

Would be great if a page number or link was added to the first post.
.
.


----------



## tulse

Has anyone tried the Reckhorn ABX Deadener?

Specs are 80 mil thick including 4 mil hard aluminium.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Duckstu said:


> Any idea where the results can be found?
> 
> Would be great if a page number or link was added to the first post.
> .
> .


Full results aren't finished yet. However, many of the products on Don's old test list don't exist anymore or have been changed. If you read over the last 3 pages you'll get the gist of where the testing process and results currently are.


----------



## country_hick

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Full results aren't finished yet. However, many of the products on Don's old test list don't exist anymore or have been changed.


I was sure this would be true. In 9 years a lot of CLD materials would have been reformulated or gone from the market. Even though the results from 2005 are highly suspect today because of obsolete data on materials that no longer exist in their 2005 form it is nice to have a historical perspective to look back on.

This however brings up the following question. Once all of your testing is finally finished will you continue testing into the future as new products arrive and old products change their formulations? Or once this testing is done will it simply sit and gather dust in another 9 years like that 2005 test result has done?

I would not blame anyone for not wanting to do continuous testing while not getting paid for it. I know it takes a good amount of time and some expense to perform all of these tests.


----------



## Darth SQ

country_hick said:


> I was sure this would be true. In 9 years a lot of CLD materials would have been reformulated or gone from the market. Even though the results from 2005 are highly suspect today because of obsolete data on materials that no longer exist in their 2005 form it is nice to have a historical perspective to look back on.
> 
> This however brings up the following question. Once all of your testing is finally finished will you continue testing into the future as new products arrive and old products change their formulations? Or once this testing is done will it simply sit and gather dust in another 9 years like that 2005 test result has done?
> 
> I would not blame anyone for not wanting to do continuous testing while not getting paid for it. I know it takes a good amount of time and some expense to perform all of these tests.


This has been a lot of work on TSTF's part; especially for someone raising a family and he's been a real trooper to continue when I know that life has done everything to get in the way of his progress.
Let's not pigeonhole him on continuing ad nauseam for our benefit.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rxonmymind

^^^^Personally I'd like to know how the "old" stuff has held up over the years. Has it cracked, slid, or held rock solid in the door panels? As for the new comers to be tested that would be interesting but not as nearly so as how the old stuff has faired IF they are still around.


----------



## country_hick

I was not trying to pigeonhole him. I am amazed that anyone would do this much testing over this length of time with all of the problems life has brought during the testing period.

I appreciate all of the hard work involved in getting all of the testing done so far. If after doing this round of testing is completed the results are finished then we have a great resource available to us. I am not sure I would have continued this far with everything that toostuborntofail has gone through at the same time.

I agree that the long term adhesion results of old products would be interesting to find out. I know some products have been reported to fall off in various threads scattered over the internet. I have found a few threads claiming cld material fell off cars or black goo leaked out with pictures showing that failure. However, I can not recall where I found them or what the products were. I am sure almost all were asphalt based products.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm have some thoughts on future testing. Requires a lot of planning and design work, but I really think it would be beneficial. Let me get them together and I'll post them up, if not today than tomorrow. Likely I won't be at work tomorrow anyways due to the cold/eye/ear infection from hell. Woke up yesterday without vision in my left eye. Fun. Today I can see, but my eyes look like I smoked out with cheech and chong and Dr dre's whole label last night in my sleep.


----------



## rxonmymind

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm have some thoughts on future testing. Requires a lot of planning and design work, but I really think it would be beneficial. Let me get them together and I'll post them up, if not today than tomorrow. Likely I won't be at work tomorrow anyways due to the cold/eye/ear infection from hell. Woke up yesterday without vision in my left eye. Fun. *Today I can see, but my eyes look like I smoked out with cheech and chong and Dr dre's whole label last night* in my sleep.


Absolutely ENVIOUS!! Can I get an invite next time? Lol...


----------



## SO20thCentury

Thanks TOOSTUBBORN for this excellent, info-packed thread and all the work you've put into it! Hope you can get rid of the Cheech&Chong-eye disease quick, sounds miserable.
Since I couldn't wait for the final results I figured I couldn't go wrong with the full SDS package so I've been installing that for the last month & a half but now there's WINDOW quieting too!?!! ...hell, never be done w this....o:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol. So I get a full eye exam on weds. It partially seems like pink eye, but then again it doesn't. Bloodshot, discharge, etc. But no itching, burning, pain, and blurred vision with a grey haze that is only there for the first several hours after waking is not normal for pink eye. Plus, my wife and I have shared game controllers, remotes, pillows, blankets and towels since it first happened, and she has nothing. 

Still getting my thoughts together on future testing. I have everything figured out in my head, its trying to get it down on paper that's harder.


----------



## rton20s

Let us know how it goes at the doc. Sounds like you might have gotten something in your eye that irritated it. The symptoms fading after a few hours of waking seems weird though. Hopefully they get your sorted out quickly.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Will do. It's possibly a reaction to medication for the cold, I had a vision issue in the past as a reaction to corticosteroids given to me for bronchitis, although I just had the blurred vision and increased blood pressure in the eye, not the extreme bloodshot and discharge. I did take a new medication for it this time.


----------



## Weigel21

Got to love the side effects of medication. LOL

On a serious note though, I hope your back to your old self and over this bothersome issue soon. Best of Luck!


----------



## Weigel21

Now I know MLV testing is still a ways off, but I'm really tempted to give that db-3 stuff from Home Depot a shot. 

At this point, I'm fairly certain I'll go with Knukonceptz or SDS for the CLD tiles. MLV and the decoupler are compete unknowns, never used either, so no idea what works, what doesn't, what works well, what works, but isn't cost effective, etc etc.


----------



## Lanson

Weigel21 said:


> Now I know MLV testing is still a ways off, but I'm really tempted to give that db-3 stuff from Home Depot a shot.
> 
> At this point, I'm fairly certain I'll go with Knukonceptz or SDS for the CLD tiles. MLV and the decoupler are compete unknowns, never used either, so no idea what works, what doesn't, what works well, what works, but isn't cost effective, etc etc.


Don's (Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown) is always a good option for foams and such, and MLV if you have no good local source (weight always being an issue.) That said, I still like my Ensolite, especially when you don't want a thick layer. I ordered a big stock of foams from Don a long while back though, and still have quite a few pieces left which I use here and there.


----------



## Beckerson1

Weigel21 said:


> Now I know MLV testing is still a ways off, but I'm really tempted to give that db-3 stuff from Home Depot a shot.
> 
> At this point, I'm fairly certain I'll go with Knukonceptz or SDS for the CLD tiles. MLV and the decoupler are compete unknowns, never used either, so no idea what works, what doesn't, what works well, what works, but isn't cost effective, etc etc.


Issue with that is it isn't very flexible and can Crack if overbent. I was going to give it a shot but just put it in storage as even though it has proven to do a decent job it's just to unforgiving and a pain to work with in the car.


----------



## Weigel21

Yeah, that's been the biggest negative I've seen for it. It's inability to be effective didn't seem to be an issue though. I'm figuring on using it on the floor and MAYBE on the doors. Car is a coupe, so I'd use it in the rear side walls of the car as well. 

Doors MAY prove troublesome, but I'm thinking (read hoping) the floor and rear sides of the car won't be much of an issue. 

But yeah, MLV seems fairly expensive to buy and have shipped, not that CLD tiles are cheap to ship either, but there's literally nothing remotely as effective locally.


----------



## Darth SQ

fourthmeal said:


> Don's (Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown) is always a good option for foams and such, and MLV if you have no good local source (weight always being an issue.) That said, I still like my Ensolite, especially when you don't want a thick layer. I ordered a big stock of foams from Don a long while back though, and still have quite a few pieces left which I use here and there.


Ensolite! :thumbsup:
That sh&t is one amazing product.
I have found so many different uses for it that I keep having to buy more and more. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

Weigel21 said:


> Now I know MLV testing is still a ways off, but I'm really tempted to give that db-3 stuff from Home Depot a shot.
> 
> At this point, I'm fairly certain I'll go with Knukonceptz or SDS for the CLD tiles. MLV and the decoupler are compete unknowns, never used either, so no idea what works, what doesn't, what works well, what works, but isn't cost effective, etc etc.



The CCF (closed cell foam or ensile) and MLV are not unknowns…they are CRUCIAL to sound deadening a vehicle.


----------



## Beckerson1

seafish said:


> The CCF (closed cell foam or ensile) and MLV are not unknowns…they are CRUCIAL to sound deadening a vehicle.


Unknowns as to which brands to go with.


----------



## seafish

Beckerson1 said:


> Unknowns as to which brands to go with.


oops missed that part…
IMO the SDS CCF is of far higher quality then plain ensolite, particularl for use on the floor. That being said, even Don suggests buying virgin vinyl MLV locally if you can to save on shipping, but the link below ships virgin vinyl MLV for free on order over 75$ and they also have diffent weights available, though most everyone uses the 1#/sq ft version. A while back, I had them send me a sample piece of it and it was identical to what SDS sells AFAICT. Here is the link--

Mass Loaded Vinyl Soundproofing Material for Walls, Floors, Ceilings, No Oder, Virgin Material - Trademark Soundproofing


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can agree with sds ccf being one of the best ccf's out there, having played with overkill, ensolite, and locally sourced foams. Don's foam just seems to resist compression better than anything else I've used. Unless I find something better, it's what I'll use in my car.


----------



## Weigel21

Thanks guys, looks like I'm just waiting for my tax return now.. and nice weather.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can agree with sds ccf being one of the best ccf's out there, having played with overkill, ensolite, and locally sourced foams. Don's foam just seems to resist compression better than anything else I've used. Unless I find something better, it's what I'll use in my car.


Aah but Ensolite can be ordered with a peel and stick backing which is a feature I find incredibly useful and will not do without. 











Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rxonmymind

^^^I agree about the peel & stick. But hey, nothing a little glue won't fix. (just happened to be in the garage right now)


----------



## Darth SQ

rxonmymind said:


> ^^^I agree about the peel & stick. But hey, nothing a little glue won't fix. (just happened to be in the garage right now)


Agreed but now everything is going to get messy. 
I just pull a little of the backing paper away at a time allowing me to hand smooth it all out as I go.
Not saying my ways better; it just works for me. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rxonmymind

As an alternative I looked at this and wondered how this would be. I'm thinking on the doors with some Velcro on the door card or roof when put back which then would stick to the fabric for an extra tight bond.

13" X 36" ROLL - NEOPRENE PADDED ADHESIVE FELT - BLACK - SOUND ABSORBING - VIBRATION REDUCING:Amazon:Home Improvement

This too...

Sponge Neoprene With Adhesive 1/8" Thick X 54" Wide X 1':Amazon:Home Improvement


----------



## rxonmymind

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Agreed but now everything is going to get messy.
> I just pull a little of the backing paper away at a time allowing me to hand smooth it all out as I go.
> Not saying my ways better; it just works for me.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


True true... I like it too. Besides then you'd have to wear a plastic hair net/goggles so the over spray wouldn't get in your hair, eyes...peel & stick for the win.


----------



## seafish

rxonmymind said:


> As an alternative I looked at this and wondered how this would be. I'm thinking on the doors with some Velcro on the door card or roof when put back which then would stick to the fabric for an extra tight bond.
> 
> 13" X 36" ROLL - NEOPRENE PADDED ADHESIVE FELT - BLACK - SOUND ABSORBING - VIBRATION REDUCING:Amazon:Home Improvement
> 
> This too...
> 
> Sponge Neoprene With Adhesive 1/8" Thick X 54" Wide X 1':Amazon:Home Improvement


That is a NICE find for some applications of finished surfaces.…the neoprene will work as decoupling layer and the felt should work in some form as a sound adsorbed at least for higher frequencies. The psa backing will certainly make it easy to install...I am thinking that stuff has "DASH MAT" written all over it!! as long as you like the color and texture of the felt.


----------



## country_hick

I personally preferred what I found. Spillguard house carpet padding. It comes with a lifetime warranty against it compressing. It is a memory foam meaning it should uncompress instead of flattening out. 1 layer of 7/16" 8lb material took me from 85dba to about 67-68dba at idle. 2 layers got me down to 62-63db on the a scale. This is in a 1997 dodge diesel truck. The low frequencies are the hardest to tame. I noticed no difference on the c scale but apparently that does not make much difference.

The problem I have with the product mentioned above is it claims sound reduction but gives no proof it even takes away 1db. My house carpet padding also had no proof it would remove any db but it never claimed that benefit either.


----------



## Alrojoca

The peel and stick ensolite, has so many uses, it is good on vertical areas where you can not use velcro. Home doors and windows and even on the midbass drivers between the baffle spacer the back of the driver's mounting area.

That one from amazon looks good but it's very expensive. I searched like crazy a couple of years ago and it was expensive or hard to find. RaamAudio had the best price it was like $1.20/sf now it is $0.20 more.

I would still use non sticky on the floor and doors for servicing and access to those areas. At the same time the peel and stick is so convenient and saves a lot of time on the doors.

Have to go with Don's products if proven and recommended, I used yoga mats, $10 and cost is the same and it has been very durable, left over I used to make some rain shields. 


This is camper seal ccf from HD, not quite sticky, just enough to to put it there before mounting the driver on the spacer.




This is one of the rain shields I made with yoga mat CCF for another speaker




Bret, if you still have a couple of feet of the peel and stick ensolite I would like to get some if you are willing to sell a couple of feet, I have been using frost king duct insulation to fill gaps and spaces in some door areas and it is crap, it will not stick to anything having to use adhesive, and the foil comes off the freaking OCF also.


----------



## Darth SQ

Alrojoca said:


> The peel and stick ensolite, has so many uses, it is good on vertical areas where you can not use velcro. Home doors and windows and even on the midbass drivers between the baffle spacer the back of the driver's mounting area.
> 
> That one from amazon looks good but it's very expensive. I searched like crazy a couple of years ago and it was expensive or hard to find. RaamAudio had the best price it was like $1.20/sf now it is $0.20 more.
> 
> I would still use non sticky on the floor and doors for servicing and access to those areas. At the same time the peel and stick is so convenient and saves a lot of time on the doors.
> 
> Have to go with Don's products if proven and recommended, I used yoga mats, $10 and cost is the same and it has been very durable, left over I used to make some rain shields.
> 
> 
> This is camper seal ccf from HD, not quite sticky, just enough to to put it there before mounting the driver on the spacer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the rain shields I made with yoga mat CCF for another speaker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bret, if you still have a couple of feet of the peel and stick ensolite I would like to get some if you are willing to sell a couple of feet, I have been using frost king duct insulation to fill gaps and spaces in some door areas and it is crap, it will not stick to anything having to use adhesive, and the foil comes off the freaking OCF also.


All I have right now is about 30 yards of the non-glue version of Ensolite. 
I found a deal on it that was too good to pass up. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Alrojoca

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> All I have right now is about 30 yards of the non-glue version of Ensolite.
> I found a deal on it that was too good to pass up.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Ok thanks, I saw that, and I was not sure if it was the one that peels and stick.


----------



## Blackbeard

Has anyone looked at the use of absorbing material in places other than dashmats? Granted, dashmats will help tame early reflections of tweets but for some of us, the interior of the vehicle (with the exception of seats, carpet and headliner) is composed of hard *ss plastic.

Has anyone used material (textiles, padded leather/vinyl, etc) on doors, pillars and back walls to soften the hardness of the plastic?

Tastefully done I think a good sound absorbing textile would help a lot.

I came across a textile normally used in conference rooms, home theater, etc that may be good for this but any textile should be good as long as it is absorbent not transparent.

*colour palette | Acousticord *

While it may be thought that it may be too absorbent, I think the glass will give us enough reflections and it ain't going away.


----------



## Lanson

FYI I went out to my favorite local upholstery supply store and while grabbing some carpet, spray glue, etc., I came across a radiant barrier that looked awesome. When we were talking about the jean-based stuff being hard on the lungs, it scared me away so the first thing I did with this stuff I found was try to play with it and see if it dusted or had any other negative attributes with it. It was actually really nice so I picked up 2 yards for $20. Here's a pic
















It has a gray backing, pretty thick like jute, but more consistent. I have no idea what exactly it is made of but it worked wonderfully for the job. This, paired with the Knu Kolossus made my doors really, really nice this time around.


----------



## Kevinyaheard

tulse said:


> Has anyone tried the Reckhorn ABX Deadener?
> 
> Specs are 80 mil thick including 4 mil hard aluminium.


I just ordered the 80 mil x 21.5 sq ft kit from Amazon myself. It gets here tomorrow and I would be more than happy to contribute a sq ft for testing purposes.

I really appreciate the effort being put into the process and is the least I could do. 

How do I get it to the person it needs to go to? I'm sure its been covered somewhere in the thread, but I already read every post a couple weeks back and my 3 yr old won't let me read it again atm... Thanks.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll send you a pm when I get off work, I'm the one doing the testing. Been doing heat testing for the last week, but don't want to say anything until that parts done. Likely to upset some people.


----------



## Lanson

I will comment on the Knu Kolossus now that I've run it a while in my car. I had to remove some off a panel to cut a hole for a new tweeter. It took FOREVER to peel it off and eventually the foil just peeled off but the butyl held strong. I eventually peeled it off one tiny sliver at a time, but I was amazed at just how good it was at sticking. I also have been amazed at its ease of use (assuming you wear a glove to install it, because it will cut you up like any thick-foiled deadener), and effective deadening power.


----------



## Hanatsu

After reading this thread I realize that my damping I did 4 years ago is perhaps a bit overkill... The glue still stick so I'm pleased with the Silent Coat stuff.





Entire floor:



3 layers of 4mm:



+ 25mm (1in) CCF


----------



## rton20s

fourthmeal said:


> I will comment on the Knu Kolossus now that I've run it a while in my car. I had to remove some off a panel to cut a hole for a new tweeter. It took FOREVER to peel it off and eventually the foil just peeled off but the butyl held strong. I eventually peeled it off one tiny sliver at a time, but I was amazed at just how good it was at sticking. I also have been amazed at its ease of use (assuming you wear a glove to install it, because it will cut you up like any thick-foiled deadener), and effective deadening power.


I can attest to the "staying power" of Knu Kolossus as well. At least in doors though a hot Central California Summer. I've been in and out of my doors more times than I care to count since my initial installation. Most recently, this past Saturday. All of the Kolossus is still holding strong with no signs of dropping or issues related to heat. And to say that this stuff sticks would be an understatement. I would not want to have to remove very much of it. 

I'm interested to see how it performeed in the heat testing.


----------



## alex912005

@TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL: I have a question about Stp Bomb versus the newer Stp Bomb AERO. Which one is better out of these 2? 
The newer Aero stuff seems to be 30% lighter than the older stuff (hence the name "Aero"), but I thought heavier is better. Isn't this how vibration damper works by adding weight to the sheet metal to stop it from moving? 
Also there is something called mechanical loss factor (the higher the better I think), and on the new Aero stuff specsheet it's 0.6, the older stuff had 0.4. So the new Stp Bomb Aero seems better, but how is that possible considering it's lighter?
Which one should I get? (regardless of price, because the older stuff is less expensive)


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Adding weight is not how these products work, at least not the good ones. Adding weight is a very inefficient way to reduce vibration. I can't for the life of me remember what pages it was on, especially since everyone sets up their account differently, but Google how a constrained layer damper works. To much to type out on my phone.

The higher loss factor is a good thing. In fact, you just added another product to my test list, considering bomb is the higher performing damper tested (despite its issues with heat resistance, which is the only reason I can't recommend it for a car).


----------



## alex912005

My mistake about the weight thing, I saw a video on youtube that said that and it made sense. I guess weight is not the most important thing about deadener. I read about it on sds, but then again I'm not a sound deadening pro. That's why I asked for your opinion.

Here's the specsheet for Stp Bomb Aero:
http://stp-distribution.com/pdf/bomb-aero.pdf
I'm not sure it's available in the US for you to test it.

So based only on the mechanical loss factor I should go with the Aero stuff?

Here's the specsheet for the older stuff:
http://stp-atlantic.com/content/files/pdf/STP_BOMB.pdf


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hmm, actually, I just noticed the testing methods are different, so the loss factor numbers aren't comparable. They would need to be compared with the same testing method. It's possible it works better, but just as possible it doesnt. Both have a bitumen base, which is the part of bomb that failed during the test run of my heat testing. It'll be going back in the oven tomorrow for final heat testing.


----------



## alex912005

I have searched for info on the method used to test the mechanical loss factor for the old Stp Bomb and I found this:

GOST 17317: ARTIFICAL LEATHER. METHOD FOR DETERMINATION OF INTERLAYER BONDING STRENGTH 

Maybe there's a mistake in the specsheet because this seems like a test method for something else. Very strange.

On the other hand, the method used to test Bomb Aero is an actual method for testing mechanical loss factor:
http://211.67.52.20:8088/xitong/BZ%5C7361257.pdf

"coefficient of mechanical losses (ILC), given to 200 Hz, and is determined to DIN EN ISO 6721-3: 1996 (Method A) at 20 ° C"


----------



## Darth SQ

I'm just going to throw this out there for anyone that is interested.
I used a spectrum of different materials to deaden my 97 Suburban in order to achieve the best results I could obtain. 
Now that I've had a good four months to live with the results, I can tell you that the time and materials put into it did pay off to the point it has utterly exceeded my expectations. 
Maybe Lycancatt who got some seat time last month in it can elaborate further. 
Mike's got a special relationship with sound and hears things many of us miss. 

So the point of this post is that with good research (reading tstf's thread) and planning, great real world results are possible and I am offering to anyone that want's to hear my Suburban at future NorCal comps or gtgs the opportunity to do so.
The audio system is still mediocre and in it's infancy but the sound deadening treatment is completed and pretty damn cool. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Lycancatt

I've been in highend audio for a very long time, even did my own room treatments for my home, and its true that proper deadening/treatment makes an insanely huge difference!

The suburban in question is very quiet, like almost anechoic, I've been in meyersounds chamber and its not there..but it cant be without adding huge panels of weight and space which we cant do in a car.

Bret, can you elaborate on the deadening? or link to where you do? pretty neat just how quiet/isolated a car can get with proper work put in.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Alex, let me get in touch with them and find out what's going on. I will say that bomb is the best performing damper so far, by 1.5db, but, the heat tolerance worries me.

Lycancatt, I'm sure Brett will elaborate, but I know he used a lot of Alphadamp (which he got before my testing, and turned out to be a midrange product), a full covering of luxury liner pro, which is the mass loaded barrier from second skin with a very thick layer of closed cell foam attached. I used luxury liner pro in my last car, and can stand behind it being a great product, albeit hard to install because of thickness. In fact my last car was a 98 dodge neon rt, and was quieter on the freeway than my wife's 2010 civic ever was.


----------



## country_hick

Have you found that the foam (and CLD) in the roof keep the car cooler in warmer weather?



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Aah but Ensolite can be ordered with a peel and stick backing which is a feature I find incredibly useful and will not do without.
> 
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## alex912005

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Alex, let me get in touch with them and find out what's going on. I will say that bomb is the best performing damper so far, by 1.5db, but, the heat tolerance worries me.


Ok. I can't wait to see what you find out. This thread is very interesting


----------



## Darth SQ

Lycancatt said:


> I've been in highend audio for a very long time, even did my own room treatments for my home, and its true that proper deadening/treatment makes an insanely huge difference!
> 
> The suburban in question is very quiet, like almost anechoic, I've been in meyersounds chamber and its not there..but it cant be without adding huge panels of weight and space which we cant do in a car.
> 
> Bret, can you elaborate on the deadening? or link to where you do? pretty neat just how quiet/isolated a car can get with proper work put in.


Thanks Mike for taking the time to post.
I will detail it out on my build thread in a week or to as not to derail this thread but the primary products used were the following:

CLD-AlphaDamp and Dynamat Xtreme
CCF-Luxury Liner Pro and Ensolite
MLV-Luxury Liner Pro
Speaker backwave absorbing material-Thinsulate and Black Hole tiles


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

country_hick said:


> Have you found that the foam (and CLD) in the roof keep the car cooler in warmer weather?



CLD on it's on it would make very little difference if applying the 25% rule.
However, with the Luxury Liner Pro filling in the panels, aluminum tape sealing everything up, and then the entire roof line front to rear sealed over all that with Ensolite, this dramatically dropped the temperatures on the roof and inside the cab greatly improving the efficiency of the front and rear ac systems. 
The only nightmare was finding a glue strong enough to make the LLP stay permanently in place while hanging upside down.
It was like trying to wallpaper the ceiling of a house with heavy carpet. 
What finally worked was DAP's Landau Top Adhesive.

DAP Products - Construction Adhesives - DAP® Landau Top & Trim High Heat Resistant Contact Cement

Likely the cld plus Ensolite would be enough on their own to reduce the temps and is a more practical approach than trying to use LLP.
Hope that answers your question.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

country_hick said:


> Have you found that the foam (and CLD) in the roof keep the car cooler in warmer weather?


3m Acoustic thinsulate is VERY light, about 1" thick,will easily be supported by the headliner without glue and will work very well as BOTH a sound and heat insulator. Still need CLD tiles on the roof panel though.


----------



## Darth SQ

seafish said:


> 3m Acoustic thinsulate is VERY light, about 1" thick,will easily be supported by the headliner without glue and will work very well as BOTH a sound and heat insulator. Still need CLD tiles on the roof panel though.


Yep. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR

any word on GP deadener?


----------



## Blackbeard

PPI,
Can you expand on how and where you used:

Speaker backwave absorbing material-Thinsulate Hole tiles


----------



## Darth SQ

Blackbeard said:


> PPI,
> Can you expand on how and where you used:
> 
> Speaker backwave absorbing material-Thinsulate Hole tiles


Ok, for the record, TSTF tested Black Hole awhile back and said it did nothing.
I don't disagree with that but I still used it since many of the vehicle's coming out of my fav shops are using it religiously so I thought it couldn't hurt.
I installed the 4x4" square tiles in both of my front doors; about nine squares per door.





As for the Thinsulate, what I did was repurpose the old GM carpet which has from the factory a huge piece of Thinsulate that runs the length of it over the area the exhaust travels.
I just peeled it off and then cut it up as needed.
I positioned and glued 10x12" sections of it directly behind the speakers in the other four doors. 



I could of ran more Black Hole but it's not cheap and also I had all this Thinsulate available so it seemed like a good substitute. 
I might also add the Thinsulate makes a great core material in a dashmat for reflections. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I plan to do more testing with the black hole tiles (and a host of diy alternatives), but Brett is right, in my first test in some bookshelf speakers, the mic showed no difference in the midbass and up (speaker was high passed at 80hz). It's possible it could have changed things below that, which I'll find out next time. That said, it wasn't a test of its damping ability, which is still coming up.


----------



## seafish

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I might also add the Thinsulate makes a great core material in a dashmat for reflections.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


THIS!!! You can even gently stuff it into dash voids and under the seat backs of seat coverings to help control reflections) Of course, it IS expensive, but I got a great deal on an almost full roll from a member here, so I can use it anywhere I want to..lol.


----------



## Blackbeard

My recollection of Blackhole from home audio mods is that it is used as much for deflection/absorption as dampening.

Coverage in those speakers was usually as close to 100% as was possible.

Since CCF is a big part of BH, could CCF from SDS for example be used in concert with Kolossus CLD et. al. for similar effect?

It would be interesting to explore coverage of the foam in the door panel. Behind the speaker, partial coverage or full coverage as in home audio.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's exactly what my first testing in the bookshelf speakers was for. The problem is, the home audio market uses the non-coated, open cell foam version, which I believe from memory is called Black Hole Five. Black Hole Tile has a sealant coating over the foam, which prevents it from being able to absorb anything, sound included. In order to absorb anything, the foam has to be open cell. So the stuff from sds wouldn't work for that purpose (and Don says as much), nor does the coated black hole tiles. Still, as a 100% coverage layer, I have no doubt it would reduce the entrance of outside sound.


----------



## Blackbeard

But is there any value for open cell in the door panels purely for its absorptive qualities in controlling backwave while letting another CLD handle dampening?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

In order for foam to be effective at absorbing sound waves, it needs to be at least 1/4 as thick as the wavelength your trying to absorb. That means 1.35" for 2500hz, and 33.75" thick for 100hz. Obviously this creates a problem as you just can't do that in a door. But, there is something I'm willing to entertain (with proper testing) in that a thinner layer could work on standing waves that are caused by the edges of the door and move parallel to the door skins. Of course, it would still need to be at least an inch thick to likely work for this. Also open cell foam absorbs water, which is always a problem in doors. And any coating that prevents it from absorbing water kills it's effectiveness at absorbing anything.


----------



## Blackbeard

Wouldn't the same principles apply in home audio mods? While they have more room than a car/truck door, they are not using mega thick BH pads. While I know they are using BH for dampening, I think they are using it also for control of waves. Might the same value apply on the doors.

“Curiouser and curiouser!”

The only reason I thought of CCF use in the doors is I seem to recall one of the vendors discussing its use (along with MLV) on the outer panel in the event there was not enough clearance for CCF/MLV under the inner door panel covers.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've never once seen someone measure before and after though, to see if it actually did anything. Any tests have been purely subjective, which isn't enough. The same principles do apply, which is why I tested with bookshelf speakers, in the house, and saw no changes (the frequency response plots literally lined up over each other.

The discussion of using it on the outer panel was for blocking sound, in the event you can't fit it between the door card and inner panel. In fact, if you put in in both places, it would be an even more effective barrier.


----------



## Jumbo Jet

Kevinyaheard said:


> I just ordered the 80 mil x 21.5 sq ft kit from Amazon myself. It gets here tomorrow and I would be more than happy to contribute a sq ft for testing purposes.
> 
> I really appreciate the effort being put into the process and is the least I could do.
> 
> How do I get it to the person it needs to go to? I'm sure its been covered somewhere in the thread, but I already read every post a couple weeks back and my 3 yr old won't let me read it again atm... Thanks.



I just bought 5 rolls of Reckhorn from Amazon myself. It is for a build on a truck I just ordered, but the truck won't be delivered until May. 

I'm curious as to if you've had an opportunity to install yours yet and would love to hear your feedback. 

The Reckhorn is .80 mil thick and looks identical to Dynamat Extreme in a side by side. Here's some pics I snapped of the two.


----------



## Blackbeard

Yea, some of the home audio tweaks are subjective to the point of holy grail status; especially by the purveyors of such items.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

It always disappoints me to see damping mat rolled up for sale. Especially considering they work by shearing friction. Part of me can't help but think that rolling it up for any period of time degrades the material.


----------



## Voorttimies

A wise man somewhere said once that if it comes in a roll, it's meant for roof insulation and not for sound damping. Kinda like Peel & Seal. From my personal experience I would also lean towards that being true.


----------



## Second Skin

Voorttimies said:


> A wise man somewhere said once that if it comes in a roll, it's meant for roof insulation and not for sound damping. Kinda like Peel & Seal. From my personal experience I would also lean towards that being true.



:thumbsup: Wise Words


----------



## country_hick

Voorttimies said:


> A wise man somewhere said once that if it comes in a roll, it's meant for roof insulation and not for sound damping. Kinda like Peel & Seal. From my personal experience I would also lean towards that being true.


I used spillguard carpet padding foam for sound reduction. It came in a roll and worked very well.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It always disappoints me to see damping mat rolled up for sale. Especially considering they work by shearing friction. Part of me can't help but think that rolling it up for any period of time degrades the material.


I suspect that all of the CLD products are made on a forming roll and are kept on a massive roll for some time. It is the most efficient way to make a product. If it is not damaged in 20 minutes why would it be damaged in 20 days?


----------



## country_hick

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> CLD on it's on it would make very little difference if applying the 25% rule.
> However, with the Luxury Liner Pro filling in the panels, aluminum tape sealing everything up, and then the entire roof line front to rear sealed over all that with Ensolite, this dramatically dropped the temperatures on the roof and inside the cab greatly improving the efficiency of the front and rear ac systems.
> The only nightmare was finding a glue strong enough to make the LLP stay permanently in place while hanging upside down.
> It was like trying to wallpaper the ceiling of a house with heavy carpet.
> What finally worked was DAP's Landau Top Adhesive.
> 
> Likely the cld plus Ensolite would be enough on their own to reduce the temps and is a more practical approach than trying to use LLP.
> Hope that answers your question.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I have heard that dap weldwood landau and tonneau cover adhesive is the only product that will work long term for headliners. It makes sense it would also work to hold foam onto the roof. The only bad part is it is illegal in some states. However, not all mail order houses know that. 

I will probably try to install some extra spillguard foam under my roof. It is 8 lbs a cubic foot foam. I suspct it would block heat and noise better than the 3m Acoustic thinsulate. The 3m has a 3.8 r value and if I read the chart correctly it does not block much noise at all. I may have misread the literature. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/...c-insulation-th-4320-1.pdf?fn=TH4320-1_02.pdf

Just keeping the interior cooler makes it worth installing the foam. 

When I drove the truck home from Alabama just above the Florida Border I was not sure the a/c was working well. It cooled the truck down but did not make it cold even on the high setting. Once I got back home away from southern heat the a/c felt almost ice cold.


----------



## rton20s

country_hick said:


> I suspect that all of the CLD products are made on a forming roll and are kept on a massive roll for some time. It is the most efficient way to make a product. If it is not damaged in 20 minutes why would it be damaged in 20 days?


Even if this is the case, I am certain there is a difference between an industrial sized roll with a decent diameter core to prevent folding, buckling and overall compression of the material and this...



Jumbo Jet said:


>


----------



## Woosey

country_hick said:


> I used spillguard carpet padding foam for sound reduction. It came in a roll and worked very well.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that all of the CLD products are made on a forming roll and are kept on a massive roll for some time. It is the most efficient way to make a product. If it is not damaged in 20 minutes why would it be damaged in 20 days?


This was the first thing that came to my mind when i read those comments..

I have used exact alu butyl from a rol and it did a great job...


----------



## Voorttimies

country_hick said:


> I used spillguard carpet padding foam for sound reduction. It came in a roll and worked very well.


I was referring to butyl mats/products marketed as sound dampers. If it is sold in rolls, the chances are high that it was originally manufactured for a completely different purpose, before some clever marketing guy labels it as CLD (because it looks like it) and makes a big buck selling it to car audio people. And because pretty much everything that you stick on the metal that adds weight will affect the resonance properties of the sheetmetal to some extent, it is difficult to claim outright that they're cheating. Even Peel & Seal has a little effect even though it's not a proper CLD product. That being said, I'm not claiming that a CLD product that is sold in rolls would automatically be suspect, either.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll say this much. Not a single product in the top 10 performance wise has come on a roll, or comes on a roll, or even looks like it has ever been rolled up for any period of time. Really easy to tell if it has been on a small roll like in the picture, as the butyl stretches and will be thinner in some spots, and bunched up in others, and usually has gaps in contact between the contact paper and/or aluminum layer.


----------



## Second Skin

country_hick just like TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL says, no top performing CLD company with quality butyl rubber would put there finished product onto a roll. I can guarantee you that Second Skin and Dynamat both have never put their finished products on a roll. The only thing that comes on a roll for Second Second Skin is the raw foil and when it is unrolled and butyl is attached to it, it is cut into finished product size immediately!!! Keep up the great discussions everyone, it is always good to see quality information being shared between car enthusiasts everywhere.


----------



## Second Skin

Here is a great video showing what "saving money" and going with a cheap deadener looks like after a few hot summers...in the long run it pays to do your projects right the first time.....enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFnUu3mQTwU&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Woosey

Second Skin said:


> country_hick just like TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL says, no top performing CLD company with quality butyl rubber would put there finished product onto a roll. I can guarantee you that Second Skin and Dynamat both have never put their finished products on a roll. The only thing that comes on a roll for Second Second Skin is the raw foil and when it is unrolled and butyl is attached to it, it is cut into finished product size immediately!!! Keep up the great discussions everyone, it is always good to see quality information being shared between car enthusiasts everywhere.


How can you say that without having used every product there is? You speak for your own product and a competitor of yours... Here in Europe there are several brands that come like that with excellent results.. Even the brown bread from the past came in cardboard tubes.. Remember? 

Exact alubutyl even outperforms dynamat if you ask me.. And I have sticked some in my time as installer..


----------



## Lanson

I always cringe when I see stuff like that on a roll. It reminds me of RAAMMAT BXT (v.1), and the utter hell that was to work with and clean up after. Of course, we didn't know better back then, but today, pffft...


----------



## rton20s

Woosey said:


> How can you say that without having used every product there is? You speak for your own product and a competitor of yours... Here in Europe there are several brands that come like that with excellent results.. Even the brown bread from the past came in cardboard tubes.. Remember?
> 
> Exact alubutyl even outperforms dynamat if you ask me.. And I have sticked some in my time as installer..





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll say this much. Not a single product in the top 10 performance wise has come on a roll, or comes on a roll, or even looks like it has ever been rolled up for any period of time. Really easy to tell if it has been on a small roll like in the picture, as the butyl stretches and will be thinner in some spots, and bunched up in others, and usually has gaps in contact between the contact paper and/or aluminum layer.


'Nuff said? 

TS2F has probably possessed and *TESTED* more lines of CLD than any other independent source out there. When it comes to CLD, I trust him implicitly.


----------



## Babs

I can say 3 years later going into my doors the SDS tile work I did is holding up as good as the day I did it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

sooo.. that GP deadener. lol


----------



## Voorttimies

Woosey said:


> Here in Europe there are several brands that come like that with excellent results.. Even the brown bread from the past came in cardboard tubes.. Remember?


The only thing I've seen that comes in a roll has been Reckhorn. Granted, I live in the obscure outskirts of Europe, but still. 

Brown Bread wasn't butyl though, but bitumen based AFAIK. At least it smelled a lot like asphalt/tar. This was 15 years ago when I worked in a car/home audio shop and sold the stuff, dunno if its contents changed at some point later.


----------



## Woosey

rton20s said:


> 'Nuff said?
> 
> TS2F has probably possessed and *TESTED* more lines of CLD than any other independent source out there. When it comes to CLD, I trust him implicitly.


but............ there is more to the world than the US of A..


----------



## Woosey

SkizeR said:


> sooo.. that GP deadener. lol


still waiting for that too..


----------



## Darth SQ

Woosey said:


> but............ there is more to the world than the US of A..


I bet you get tired of having to say that. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Woosey

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I bet you get tired of having to say that.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Nah.. Not really  jk

But anyways we are all lucky 2stub does this for the community.. It just that there are more products that are on the market... And I think it sucks a bit when someone says things without having personal experience with those products..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've actually run into a bit of a problem with that. It seems in the last year and a half, there has been an explosion of new products flooding the market. I have to make the cut somewhere, and I really don't like doing that. I think at this point, I have everything I'm going to test this run. The test enclosure has a limited capability as far as how many repeated cycles it can take being taken apart and put together for each test.

I would like to do a whole new round of tests, maybe a year or so after this is finished. I'm thinking it would have to be a kick starter funded project, so the test assembly could be built to last forever, and the testing process more automated, and allow for temperature based vibration damping testing.


----------



## rton20s

Chris, I like your ideas for the next round of testing. And I agree with having to cut it off somewhere for the current tests. Let me know if there is any way I can help. I think the Kickstarter thing would be a good idea and something you could post to a lot of other resources outside of DIYMA in order to solicit funding.


----------



## rton20s

Woosey said:


> but............ there is more to the world than the US of A..


There is?


----------



## Mahna Mahna

Yuppr.......


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've actually run into a bit of a problem with that. It seems in the last year and a half, there has been an explosion of new products flooding the market. I have to make the cut somewhere, and I really don't like doing that. I think at this point, I have everything I'm going to test this run. The test enclosure has a limited capability as far as how many repeated cycles it can take being taken apart and put together for each test.
> 
> I would like to do a whole new round of tests, maybe a year or so after this is finished. I'm thinking it would have to be a kick starter funded project, so the test assembly could be built to last forever, and the testing process more automated, and allow for temperature based vibration damping testing.


I was wondering if you were finally getting to that point. 
Do what you can to finish up and if possible, I am still looking for the combination tests.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Mahna Mahna said:


> Yuppr.......


Is that the new Starbucks?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Is that the new Starbucks?
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


rendering of the new look of mcdonalds i think. theyre getting pretty classy


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Even if this is the case, I am certain there is a difference between an industrial sized roll with a decent diameter core to prevent folding, buckling and overall compression of the material and this...


I order my condoms unrolled for the very same reason. 
They come looking like a pack of tube socks from the 70's but they no longer require a zip tie at the base.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Woosey

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I order my condoms unrolled for the very same reason.
> They come looking like a pack of tube socks from the 70's but they no longer require a zip tie at the base.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Lmao! 

Getting that zip tie off after the deed is done will be fun!


----------



## Darth SQ

Woosey said:


> Lmao!
> 
> Getting that zip tie off after the deed is done will be fun!


OMG...no more Sierra Nevada Bigfoot for me....at least not in the quantity consumed last night. :mean:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## alex912005

Anything new about StP Bomb or StP Bomb Aero?


----------



## Mahna Mahna

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I order my condoms unrolled for the very same reason.
> They come looking like a pack of tube socks from the 70's but they no longer require a zip tie at the base.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I use cling wrap and a twist tie...spend my condom money on upgrading the Big 3. :blush:


----------



## Woosey

alex912005 said:


> Anything new about StP Bomb or StP Bomb Aero?


Iirc bomb had best performance in this test


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My first email to STP-Atlantic failed, so I have sent another. I expect a reply early next week. As soon as it comes in, I'll post the info. I asked a few questions, including about the possible error in the test method, actual performance of the two, and where one would purchase (being that their online store is pretty empty).


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Got sort of a response from Stp-atlantic. Seems he may not have fully understood my question. He did say that bomb-aero has better damping performance than regular bomb. As far as where to purchase since the store doesn't have any, he just said through their distributors, without clarification.


----------



## SkizeR

if your in the tri state area you can give auto designs NYC a call. they are a retailer for stp and the distributor is right in jersey. or greg (southeastcustoms on here) also sells stp. thats who i got mine from.


----------



## rton20s

In California, I know that Reliable Product Marketing (Scott Baughman) is now the rep for StP. That means you can probably source their product through JT or SiS. Other shops that carries brands that he reps (Illusion, Mosconi, Focal, Arc, etc.) should have access to it as well.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> In California, I know that Reliable Product Marketing (Scott Baughman) is now the rep for StP. That means you can probably source their product through JT or SiS. Other shops that carries brands that he reps (Illusion, Mosconi, Focal, Arc, etc.) should have access to it as well.


That's interesting and good to know. 
Good for Scott. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## alex912005

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Got sort of a response from Stp-atlantic. Seems he may not have fully understood my question. He did say that bomb-aero has better damping performance than regular bomb. As far as where to purchase since the store doesn't have any, he just said through their distributors, without clarification.


I hope the new Aero stuff is good because I just ordered some.


----------



## Woosey

rton20s said:


> In California, I know that Reliable Product Marketing (Scott Baughman) is now the rep for StP. That means you can probably source their product through JT or SiS. Other shops that carries brands that he reps (*Illusion, Mosconi, Focal, Arc, *etc.) should have access to it as well.


Isn't Orca the distributer for those brands anymore?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If you have any left over, I'd love to test it, but no worries if you dont. I usually find uses for damping that I didn't think of before I had it in my possession. For instance, under the kitchen sink to dampen noise from the disposal.


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If you have any left over, I'd love to test it, but no worries if you dont. I usually find uses for damping that I didn't think of before I had it in my possession. For instance, under the kitchen sink to dampen noise from the disposal.


or in the dvd player at home, or in the pc tower, or in cabinets..


----------



## rton20s

Woosey said:


> Isn't Orca the distributer for those brands anymore?


ORCA is a designer, manufacturer, distributor and retailer. Illusion is their own brand. Mosconi, Gladen and Focal (among others) are brands that they distribute (exclusively in the US, I believe). They have nothing to do with Arc Audio. 

RPM (Reliable Product Marketing aka Scott Baughman) is a California dealer rep for the brands listed above (including Arc), StP and several other brands.


----------



## Woosey

rton20s said:


> ORCA is a designer, manufacturer, distributor and retailer. Illusion is their own brand. Mosconi, Gladen and Focal (among others) are brands that they distribute (exclusively in the US, I believe). They have nothing to do with Arc Audio.
> 
> RPM (Reliable Product Marketing aka Scott Baughman) is a California dealer rep for the brands listed above (including Arc), StP and several other brands.


Gotcha, didn't mean arc.. my bad.. 

He's more the man between the distributors and the shops?


----------



## rxonmymind

Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition

Got through last weekend doing a marathon install of this sound deadener from 1 pm to 1 am. A bottle of advile also helped. Anyway, while the results of my effort were disappointing the product was not. Head & shoulders above anything I have used. Most of the noise and I mean probably 80% is coming through the floor of the SUV which I haven't addressed. Ordered another 32 sq ft so hopefully this will all tie in together nicely with the work I had done earlier. Going for broke. It HAS to reduce the noise level on this next try.


----------



## Bminus

Kno Knoise Kolossus is CLD, you need a layer of MLV to make a noticeable difference in noise.


----------



## seafish

rxonmymind said:


> Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition
> 
> Got through last weekend doing a marathon install of this sound deadener from 1 pm to 1 am. A bottle of advile also helped. Anyway, while the results of my effort were disappointing the product was not. Head & shoulders above anything I have used. Most of the noise and I mean probably 80% is coming through the floor of the SUV which I haven't addressed. Ordered another 32 sq ft so hopefully this will all tie in together nicely with the work I had done earlier. Going for broke. It HAS to reduce the noise level on this next try.


I take it that you have already read the how to at sds.com??
CLD does not reduce noise, only panel resonance.
MLV or lead sheet (hint ) separated from the cld with full layer of ccf will do.just whT you wznt. using cld at over 25 percent coverage is a case of diminishing returns


----------



## country_hick

rxonmymind said:


> Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition
> 
> Got through last weekend doing a marathon install of this sound deadener from 1 pm to 1 am. A bottle of advile also helped. Anyway, while the results of my effort were disappointing the product was not. Head & shoulders above anything I have used. *Most of the noise and I mean probably 80% is coming through the floor of the SUV* which I haven't addressed. Ordered another 32 sq ft so hopefully this will all tie in together nicely with the work I had done earlier. Going for broke. It HAS to reduce the noise level on this next try.


Here is what I did. It was fairly cheap and very effective. All of my excess noise came from the engine. I only worked on the floor and lower firewall at first. Later attempts on my doors and club cab section made no difference in my case.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ound-reduction-journey-some-good-results.html


----------



## rxonmymind

seafish said:


> I take it that you have already read the how to at sds.com??
> CLD does not reduce noise, only panel resonance.
> MLV or lead sheet (hint ) separated from the cld with full layer of ccf will do.just whT you wznt. using cld at over 25 percent coverage is a case of diminishing returns


Yes I did. Thanks. As for 25% well I'm a 100% guy and all for diminishing returns. Chasing the ghost if you will. I mispoke in my earlier statement in that "it didn't work" attitude. I did the exact same thing to my doors w/o the mlv and it certainly tightened up the bass and was a bit warmer in it's sound reproduction. So it wasn't for naught. The middle(floor) just needs to meet up with the front doors & cargo area. Tie it all in and I'm sure collectively it'll be fantastic. As opposed to the piece meal fashion of an install I'm doing it.



country_hick said:


> Here is what I did. It was fairly cheap and very effective. All of my excess noise came from the engine. I only worked on the floor and lower firewall at first. Later attempts on my doors and club cab section made no difference in my case.
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ound-reduction-journey-some-good-results.html


I did see your vid & thread on the double stacked carpet pad. Good job. In the same vein as you I'm looking outside of the box to create the ultimate terminator noise killing install.


----------



## Woosey

seafish said:


> I take it that you have already read the how to at sds.com??
> CLD does not reduce noise, only panel resonance.
> MLV or lead sheet (hint ) separated from the cld with full layer of ccf will do.just whT you wznt. using cld at over 25 percent coverage is a case of diminishing returns


a cld product also reduces higher pitch noises ( the cld blocks those a certain amount, at least the ones we use do. )

Test: cut a piece and cover your ears with it...


----------



## alex912005

Got the StP Bomb Aero today. It's heavy as hell, thick as hell. Take a look.









My cat always inspects new stuff. 





















Close-up. That's only one sheet!









Also one sheet. Looks like it has 2 layers.










Here is one of the corners. 









The layer closest to the alluminum looks like asphalt (looks a little brittle), the next one looks like butyl I guess, the actual stuff that sticks to the car, also looks like it's got gravel in it. 
Taking into consideration that the older Bomb was the best damper but lacked heat resistance, Bomb Aero has a better heat rating and might be the new best stuff.


----------



## Woosey

alex912005 said:


> Got the StP Bomb Aero today. It's heavy as hell, thick as hell. Take a look.
> 
> 
> My cat always inspects new stuff.


new boxes you mean?


----------



## alex912005

Woosey said:


> new boxes you mean?


Pretty much anything.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can't find a heat rating for bomb aero anywhere. Regular bomb was rated for 176f working temp, and 302 short term.


----------



## alex912005

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can't find a heat rating for bomb aero anywhere. Regular bomb was rated for 176f working temp, and 302 short term.


I saw it on a japanese website. It said -40 to +100 degrees Celsius (or -40 to 212 degrees Fahrenheit). I don't know it's only on japanese websites.
If you google "stp bomb aero 40 100" you only find japanese websites. Strange.
I wonder how they know it since it's not on the specsheet.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hmm, definitely interesting. I may have to make this the last product I test.


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hmm, definitely interesting. I may have to make this the last product I test.


so no GP?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No, gp will be tested. I'm still having an issue with the mic/windows.


So I guess I should ask this question. Does anyone care about response above 500hz? The issues come in around 800hz.


----------



## SkizeR

I will pay you to do gp lol. Just to end the "gp is the best/gp is the worst" bs that's all over Facebook


----------



## rton20s

Skizer, which of the hundreds of FB pages are you seeing that on? I've gotten to the point that I try to avoid most of the sound deadening questions now.


----------



## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> Skizer, which of the hundreds of FB pages are you seeing that on? I've gotten to the point that I try to avoid most of the sound deadening questions now.


all of them. literally all of the besides the strictly sound quality one. i left all of the other ones because its nut hug central.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ok, as long as no one objects before tomorrow afternoon, I'll get it tested tomorrow. Results above 700hz will be invalid, but everything below that will be good. This stuff isn't really doing much above that anyways.


----------



## SkizeR

Which ones are left?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GP, the Focal stuff, and then consistency tests.


----------



## SkizeR

I've always wondered about the focal stiff as well


----------



## alex912005

What do you guys think about this mlv?

Dodo Barrier MLV – Sound Deadening Shop

I wonder if it smells...


----------



## nineball76

Was The DD EA 3.0 tested? I've seen some on a friends roof, and it was solid stuff, much better than the AudioTechnix I was using. I'm planning my new build and want to do it right the first time, was thinking along the lines of the EA 3.0 or the Knu 100mil, then maybe a layer of luxury liner pro. I don't expect it to be competition quiet, but it is a 4wd diesel........


----------



## Second Skin

nineball76 said:


> Was The DD EA 3.0 tested? I've seen some on a friends roof, and it was solid stuff, much better than the AudioTechnix I was using. I'm planning my new build and want to do it right the first time, was thinking along the lines of the EA 3.0 or the Knu 100mil, then maybe a layer of luxury liner pro. I don't expect it to be competition quiet, but it is a 4wd diesel........


You won't be disappointed in that choice of Luxury Liner Pro.... a great 100% American made Mass Loaded Vinyl product. 

Good luck with your project and keep up the great builds.

Second Skin For The Win
1-800-679-8511


----------



## Darth SQ

Second Skin said:


> You won't be disappointed in that choice of Luxury Liner Pro.... a great 100% American made Mass Loaded Vinyl product.
> 
> Good luck with your project and keep up the great builds.
> 
> Second Skin For The Win
> 1-800-679-8511


I know i'm not disappointed. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## nineball76

Second Skin said:


> You won't be disappointed in that choice of Luxury Liner Pro.... a great 100% American made Mass Loaded Vinyl product.
> 
> Good luck with your project and keep up the great builds.
> 
> Second Skin For The Win
> 1-800-679-8511


haha, like you aren't just slightly biased! Luxury liner pro is the only MLV I've ever considered. I believe it would make any decent CLD seem even better than it already is. 75%+ coverage, and LLP.... good-ta-go


Guess it's time to read through this entire thread. I was up to date with it a long time ago.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The Llp is a very good product, if you can fit it. I know in my new car, I cant, but my old one I did.

I haven't tested the dd stuff. I'm pretty much done accepting new products, simply because there are too many new products continually coming out that the test rig won't last to get through them all, and the funds just aren't there. I'm at more than 30 products, and no have to start compiling results and finishing heat testing.

Which btw, I'll be doing that tomorrow for stfu so I can post a fair evaluation of it.


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Which btw, I'll be doing that tomorrow for stfu so I can post a fair evaluation of it.


whooohoooo:laugh::laugh:


----------



## SkizeR

Yessssssss


----------



## rxonmymind

Shweeet!


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ...finishing heat testing.
> 
> Which btw, I'll be doing that tomorrow for stfu so I can post a fair evaluation of it.


Heat testing? Let's do this!


----------



## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> Heat testing? Let's do this!


where can i find blueprints to that? :laugh:


----------



## Babs

Second Skin said:


> You won't be disappointed in that choice of Luxury Liner Pro.... a great 100% American made Mass Loaded Vinyl product.
> 
> Good luck with your project and keep up the great builds.
> 
> Second Skin For The Win
> 1-800-679-8511


Yep I've been putting it off, but since the new build, I've discovered two things.. 
1. Road noise is now intolerable and 
2. so are resonances, rattles, buzzing etc.

Piggy bank is now started to do the "rest" of the car since only the front doors were treated with CLD, CCF, MLV. So I've gotta do the floor from firewall to trunk, rear deck, headliner I think, rear doors. Afraid to ask what kind of budget I'm looking at there. 08 Si Sedan.


----------



## Bminus

It depends on what you want to spend on it.. I'm doing my entire 2014 Tundra crewmax with cld, ccf, mlv, and some insulation for just under $500.. BUT I'm using all budget materials, such as, DB-3 from Home Depot (.75lb/sqft compared to 1lb/sqft), 1/8" ccf from foamfactory.com, 35sqft of Knu Kollosus, and Roxul Safe and Sound from Home Depot. 

Will there be a big difference between this and the high end name brand stuff? Who knows, but I'm willing to bet its negligible since I'll be able to double up ccf, mlv, and insulation in some places because Ill have so much extra...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Not quite the flamethrower approach, but the stfu, bam, and bam XXL samples are in the oven.

Or maybe Dustin was preparing me for what's coming for me after I post the results:laugh:


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Not quite the flamethrower approach, but the stfu, bam, and bam XXL samples are in the oven.
> 
> Or maybe Dustin was preparing me for what's coming for me after I post the results:laugh:


as in results for their heat resistance are in?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Well sort of. I think I want to work on the testing some more. I just shut down the oven after 3 hours and 15 mins. The house smells horrible. My wife will probably kill me, I don't know it will air out before she gets home.

The toaster oven outside didn't work. Too small, anytime the coils lit up, the samples would insta-fail. The inside oven works perfect, but stinks up the house like hell. A full size electric oven like the one in the house, outside, would be perfect, but that's just not possible right now.

Bam XXl, GP STFU, and regular Bam all spent two hours at 200F, one hour at 300F, and 15 mins at 400F. GP STFU was the clear winner in heat testing. All survived to 400F. Bam XXL failed within 3 mins of the 400F test. Regular Bam stayed attached through the 15 mins, but when I pulled them off, the damping material was liquified, but its light weight compared to Bam XXL kept it from falling off as quickly. I'm dead sure it would have failed if left in for the hour I wanted to leave them in for. GP STFU was still stuck on relatively well.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> My wife will probably kill me, I don't know it will air out before she gets home.


You're a braver man than I. No way that would have happened inside of my house.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Heat testing? Let's do this!


This is exactly why I don't eat Chipotle. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Actually, it did actually end up clearing out before she got home. She said to just do it on weekend mornings so we can keep all the windows open, since the next weeks might need some ac around here.

I will post the vibration damping test results tomorrow of all 3 products.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Actually, it did actually end up clearing out before she got home. She said to just do it on weekend mornings so we can keep all the windows open, since the next weeks might need some ac around here.
> 
> I will post the vibration damping test results tomorrow of all 3 products.


You're a lucky man...i got in serious yrouble when i used the kitchen oven for modding my headlights and that probably didn't smell nearly as bad.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, probably not considering the Bam XXL has asphalt in it. 

I actually did a pair of headlights in an apt oven a while back. I don't remember it being this bad.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, probably not considering the Bam XXL has asphalt in it.
> 
> I actually did a pair of headlights in an apt oven a while back. I don't remember it being this bad.


LOL…misplaced modifier…that's what I meant the stuff you are working with now is much worse then the headlights.


----------



## Beckerson1

I'm genuinely supprising the GP withstood the test. My concern was with the foam portion.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I was surprised that bam xxl had asphalt in it, while regular bam didnt. Very clear differences in the composition of each ones damping compound.


Seafish, got it. I mis-worded my reply lol, but I know what you mean. I think had these products not had foam or asphalt, the smell wouldn't have been nearly as bad.


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I was surprised that bam xxl had asphalt in it, while regular bam didnt. Very clear differences in the composition of each ones damping compound.
> 
> 
> Seafish, got it. I mis-worded my reply lol, but I know what you mean. I think had these products not had foam or asphalt, the smell wouldn't have been nearly as bad.


How does the asphalt filled damper perform vs the "regular" version.. 

I still don't get the issue with asphalt based/filled dampers? what's so bad about them?


----------



## seafish

Woosey said:


> How does the asphalt filled damper perform vs the "regular" version..
> 
> I still don't get the issue with asphalt based/filled dampers? what's so bad about them?


The stickiness and elasticity of butyl rubber is MUCH better then asphalt at reducing panel resonance and reducing panel renounce is the first step in effectively reducing noise. Also, the stickiness and elasticity of the CLD base has more to do with reducing panel resonance then does the aluminum facing of the CLD. Even though they look similar, and both use aluminum facing, asphalt based tiles and butyl based tiles are in a different class when it osmes to effectiveness at reduing panel resonance with a "constrained layer dampener". What I am trying to say is that the butyl does a better job then the asphalt at "constraining" the surface that is is stuck to becsaue of its inherent rubber type qualities. In short, the only thing bad about using asphalt based layers is that they do NOT work near as well as the butyl based CLD tiles in terms of reducing panel resonance and since that is the entire point of installing them, most people would rather use the better product.

That begin said, if you need to stop a leak in a roof, I'd imagine the asphalt would be a MUCH better product to use…lol


----------



## spl152db

Woosey said:


> How does the asphalt filled damper perform vs the "regular" version..
> 
> I still don't get the issue with asphalt based/filled dampers? what's so bad about them?





seafish said:


> The stickiness and elasticity of butyl rubber is MUCH better then asphalt at reducing panel resonance and reducing panel renounce is the first step in effectively reducing noise. Also, the stickiness and elasticity of the CLD base has more to do with reducing panel resonance then does the aluminum facing of the CLD. Even though they look similar, and both use aluminum facing, asphalt based tiles and butyl based tiles are in a different class when it osmes to effectiveness at reduing panel resonance with a "constrained layer dampener". What I am trying to say is that the butyl does a better job then the asphalt at "constraining" the surface that is is stuck to becsaue of its inherent rubber type qualities. In short, the only thing bad about using asphalt based layers is that they do NOT work near as well as the butyl based CLD tiles in terms of reducing panel resonance and since that is the entire point of installing them, most people would rather use the better product.
> 
> That begin said, if you need to stop a leak in a roof, I'd imagine the asphalt would be a MUCH better product to use…lol


um idk about all that, but basically asphalt stinks. And it melts. They are known to fall off it high heat and melt down your panels. no thanks.


----------



## SkizeR

spl152db said:


> *um idk about all that*, but basically asphalt stinks. And it melts. They are known to fall off it high heat and melt down your panels. no thanks.


well, thats actually what it is..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

In short, constrained layer dampers need a damping material to work. Damping materials for constrained layer damping needs to be viscoelastic. All butyl is viscoelastic, to some extent, obviously the better products use butyl formulas that are better at this.

Asphalt is not viscoelastic. Therefore, asphalt based products reduce vibrations by way of weight almost exclusively. 

There are a few exceptions to this. There is a clear difference between the bitumen based compounds that STP and Silent Coat use, from the regular asphalt used in some other products like peel n seal. That said, bitumen is a single component of asphalt, and there is a clear difference in smell, handling, and performance between them.

Butyl ALWAYS resists heat better than anything with bitumen or asphalt in it.


----------



## alex912005

alex912005 said:


> What do you guys think about this mlv?
> 
> Dodo Barrier MLV – Sound Deadening Shop
> 
> I wonder if it smells...


????


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sorry for missing your post. Haven't been able to do anything, mom was in hospital last week.

The website doesn't say anything about whether it is recycled vinyl, or virgin, so there's not really a way of knowing without calling them and asking. (and hoping their definition of smell matches yours).


----------



## seafish

alex912005 said:


> ????


At least the website suggests the proper way of using it as a sound deadener by pairing it with CCF. That being said, the specs say only 2mm thick which is about HALF the thickness of the MLV I just bought from trademark soundproofing but the specs also claim 2.68 kg (equals 5.9 pounds) for a 5.8 square foot piece, which would indicate that it IS 1#/sq ft MLV. So one way or the other, something is not cu=omputing and I do not think the problem is in the meteoric conversion, though it might be. NO way to tell if is smells, though you could call and ask them to send you a sample….Trademark was happy to do that for me and it definitely did NOT smell and was clearly a quality product.


----------



## alex912005

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Sorry for missing your post. Haven't been able to do anything, mom was in hospital last week.


Don't worry about it. Sorry about your mother. Hope she gets well.


@seafish: I thought most mlv is 2mm thick. Does your 4mm mlv weigh twice as much? (like 2lbs/sqft).
The thing is we don't have many mlv options in Europe, and the price for shipping it from the US would be killer. It would cost more than the mlv itself because of the weight.


----------



## seafish

alex912005 said:


> @seafish: I thought most mlv is 2mm thick. Does your 4mm mlv weigh twice as much? (like 2lbs/sqft).


MLV comes in different thicknesses and weights…that being said, the most common to use in vehicles is the 1#/sqft material, which is between 3 and 4mm which is much closer to 1/8") thick. 2mm is MUCH closer to 1/16" which would be the .5#/sqft material. Check out the MLV and specs at this site...even though you cannot afford to have it shipped to Europe (lol…I highly doubt their "free shipping" applies to you )…you can at least SEE the different MLV that is available in the US.

Mass Loaded Vinyl Soundproofing Material for Walls, Floors, Ceilings, No Oder, Virgin Material - Trademark Soundproofing


----------



## alex912005

seafish said:


> MLV comes in different thicknesses and weights…that being said, the most common to use in vehicles is the 1#/sqft material, which is between 3 and 4mm which is much closer to 1/8") thick. 2mm is MUCH closer to 1/16" which would be the .5#/sqft material. Check out the MLV and specs at this site...*even though you cannot afford to have it shipped to Europe (lol…I highly doubt their "free shipping" applies to you )*…you can at least SEE the different MLV that is available in the US.
> 
> Mass Loaded Vinyl Soundproofing Material for Walls, Floors, Ceilings, No Oder, Virgin Material - Trademark Soundproofing


It's not that I can't afford it... but it's not worth shipping it as the cost of shipping exceeds the value of the material. It's like buying a 6 grand car, and paying 10 grand to have it shipped to you.
Free shipping is usually only for the continental 48 states. So if you're from Alaska or Hawaii you still have to pay.


----------



## Alrojoca

Time to search for 1/32 lead sound barrier sheets then, or pay a higher price for MLV


----------



## seafish

alex912005 said:


> It's not that I can't afford it... but it's not worth shipping it as the cost of shipping exceeds the value of the material. It's like buying a 6 grand car, and paying 10 grand to have it shipped to you.
> Free shipping is usually only for the continental 48 states. So if you're from Alaska or Hawaii you still have to pay.


Yea…i know that the free shipping is only for the continental US…that's why I said "LOL"…the only reason I directed you there is so that you could see the DIFFERENT thicknesses of MLV and their specs.


----------



## country_hick

Alrojoca said:


> Time to search for 1/32 lead sound barrier sheets then, or pay a higher price for MLV


I agree. Locally I found some roofing lead. As I recall it was 2.5lb. As MLV is so heavy making it expensive to ship I was seriously looking at buying lead sheet. While you may not be able to find lead in sheet form locally there is a good chance you can find lead (maximum 12" wide) at a roofing supply shop unless your country has outlawed it.

If you look at this link you can see how lead was used to quiet down diesel pickups. It includes a LOT more including a link to using lead as soundproofing. It is literally the most exhaustive sound reduction thread on the internet. It includes this thread and lots of others.  
Ideas to consider when soundproofing your truck. - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

This thread shown inside the link above shows lead being installed in a pickup.
Noise Reduction - Page 4


----------



## Beckerson1

TSTF I pmd you about another cld candidate. I've got a source over on MAF who is willing to donate some Gator Skin, or Tantric audios cld


----------



## CZ Eddie

Sorry for the slightly off-topic post. But could someone point me to a generally accepted build thread of a four-door sedan that used ~$300 or less in sound deadening/absorbing materials? That's the budget I've set for my 2015 Kia Optima with dual panoramic [large] sunroof. It'll have a fairly capable sound system.

I'm looking to do floors, doors and full trunk and who knows what else?

SoundDeadeningShowdown's site is down so I can't research there ATM.


----------



## Jscoyne2

So i dont have to go through 48 pages. What page is an overview of all tests done on?


----------



## Jscoyne2

CZ Eddie said:


> Sorry for the slightly off-topic post. But could someone point me to a generally accepted build thread of a four-door sedan that used ~$300 or less in sound deadening/absorbing materials? That's the budget I've set for my 2015 Kia Optima with dual panoramic [large] sunroof. It'll have a fairly capable sound system.
> 
> I'm looking to do floors, doors and full trunk and who knows what else?
> 
> SoundDeadeningShowdown's site is down so I can't research there ATM.


I spent 200$ alone on just the front doors. Cld, MLV, and CCF

>>> With 14 CLD Tiles: 14 CLD Tiles @@ 2.45 =$34.30 
1 roll Extruded Butyl Rope @ 9.75=9.75 
>>> 33 linear inches MLV @ .93 = 30.69 1 sheets 1/8"
>>> CCF @ 16.35 = 16.35 7.5 ft² 3M Thinsulate
>>> Acoustic @ 3.90 = 29.25 3 Velcro Strips, adh. 2 sides,
>>> 2-pack @ 3.25 = 9.75 1 8 oz can HH-66 Vinyl Contact Cement @
>>> 9.50 = 9.50
>>>
>>> Sub Total: $139.59 Shipping: 34.56 Total: $174.15
>>>


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jscoyne2 said:


> So i dont have to go through 48 pages. What page is an overview of all tests done on?


Your actually already using my top performing test so far. KnuKonceptz kolossus is just barely behind SDS by a hair, but cheaper.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

CZ Eddie said:


> Sorry for the slightly off-topic post. But could someone point me to a generally accepted build thread of a four-door sedan that used ~$300 or less in sound deadening/absorbing materials? That's the budget I've set for my 2015 Kia Optima with dual panoramic [large] sunroof. It'll have a fairly capable sound system.
> 
> I'm looking to do floors, doors and full trunk and who knows what else?
> 
> SoundDeadeningShowdown's site is down so I can't research there ATM.


It will be near impossible to do a full treatment with quality materials for that price. Mlv/ccf by itself for the whole car will cost that much. So it'll depend on your priorities. I would personally start with mlv, simply because it will make the biggest difference. You can always go back later and add cld.


----------



## CZ Eddie

Oh wow, thanks guys.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It will be near impossible to do a full treatment with quality materials for that price. Mlv/ccf by itself for the whole car will cost that much. So it'll depend on your priorities. I would personally start with mlv, simply because it will make the biggest difference. You can always go back later and add cld.


Yeah but who wants to go back in and do it twice. ><
Save up and do it all once and do it right the first time. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## CZ Eddie

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yeah but who wants to go back in and do it twice. ><
> Save up and do it all once and do it right the first time.


Hahah, easier said than done.
I have to budget for Android install done properly, EQ/time alignment done properly, and most important of all, alarm done properly.

The ~$300 budget for sound treatment is about $2000 more than I can afford to spend. lol
I'm taking away from other things just to get the $300.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It will be near impossible to do a full treatment with quality materials for that price. Mlv/ccf by itself for the whole car will cost that much. So it'll depend on your priorities. I would personally start with mlv, simply because it will make the biggest difference. You can always go back later and add cld.


Been thinking about it. My car is already fairly quiet except for road noise coming up from the floorboards. And I drive with my windows and sunroof open every chance I get. So I'm just going to focus on the most important things.

1) Vibration reduction in the trunk where the sub is at.

2) MLV under the floor carpet.

3) Door outer panel where midbass will be thumping. No need for MLV on this door because it's already one thick piece of plastic. 

Borrowed pic:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yeah but who wants to go back in and do it twice. ><
> Save up and do it all once and do it right the first time.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Lol, I know right? That's where I'm at right now. Trying to balance paying some house repairs off, redoing the backyard, home audio, and car audio.


----------



## brumledb

Anyone ever looked at this stuff as a ccf? Price seems pretty good for 40 ft2 and is self adhesive. 


1 6" 40 sqft Noico Liner 100 Effect Sound Deadener Acoustic Dampening | eBay


----------



## Lanson

I don't like using MLV. I know it isn't as effective as MLV but I really, really like this radiant barrier I'm getting from my local upholstery shop. It is like that blue jean-based barrier people use from Home Depot, but it doesn't dust at all so for me and my weak lungs, it is safe. It cuts well, lays down well, and blocks well, without being expensive or heavy. With that and some Kolossus (and some Ensolite), I'm set on most builds I do.


----------



## max814guy

are u testing the STFUv1 or v2, TSTF?


----------



## Beckerson1

max814guy said:


> are u testing the STFUv1 or v2, TSTF?


It's the first version STFU.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hey max, I just saw your message. Didn't pop up on my phone like a pm. It's the v1.


----------



## max814guy

can you message me your info so we could get you a sample of the v2? do you have a FB?


----------



## Donanon

Great thread. Wish I had seen it last year before I wasted $100+ on FatMat...but we live and learn. There are some good deals for legit damping materials on Ebay and Amazon, last year I bought 100 sqare feet .125" of MLV with 75 square feet of .125 CCF and 66 square feet of Dow Weathermate CLD for $330 shipped.

I got 40 square feet of Thinsulate from SSD as he has tbe best price I could find. 

One thing I've found is that by thenselves these materials perform so so but used as a system they reduce noise considerably and IMO it's worth going the distance when it comes to sound damping.


D.


----------



## seafish

Donanon said:


> .
> 
> One thing I've found is that by thenselves these materials perform so so but used as a system they reduce noise considerably...
> D.


and consistently!!!

Very true!!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

max814guy said:


> can you message me your info so we could get you a sample of the v2? do you have a FB?


Soon as I get off work I'll shoot you a pm, no facebook for me. My wife does, so I use hers to follow bands I like for concert info, but don't use it for anything else.


----------



## seafish

TS2F, I am in the middle of helping a friend with his install and we have ruyn out of Knu Kollossus that I had him order. I can get Stinger EXPERT Roadkill from a shop locally, but REALLY need to know how it performs compared to the KK and do not have time to read the entire thread again…can you post back with your thoughts and results on it and/or with a link to the Stinger results??? TIA!!!


----------



## Beckerson1

TSTF:

Whats the ETA on testing you've done so far? 

A lot has been tested so far and I would suggest taking whats been tested and place that into group one for posting (be that your own webpage, or whatever final method you choose to do) testing can continue but being in group two for testing. Meaning at this time focus is on posting initial results. You can still post top performers based on the groups tested as you update.

Just a suggestion.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Seafish, I would take dynamat if you can get it all day over the stinger. Stinger was a pretty low performer. It's at the bottom of a list of products I would consider only as a last, emergency resort.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Beckerson, I've actually been running tests pretty non-stop, which is why I've only been checking on here on my phone. My goal is to finish up everything I have by the end of the month. Heat testing will be done by then too. Finally got that sorted. Because of the current issue with the living situation at home, both with my mom's health, and the issues with my dad, the testing equipment is just taking up too much room right now, so I need to finish it up.


----------



## brumledb

Just ordered KK, Raamaudio Peel and stick Ensolite and some F.A.S.T. Rings. Hopefully this puts me well on my way toward midbass greatness.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Seafish, I would take dynamat if you can get it all day over the stinger. Stinger was a pretty low performer. It's at the bottom of a list of products I would consider only as a last, emergency resort.


That's too bad, though I might have to do it anyways…but I'll check into Dynamat on Amazon Prime…unfortunately the KK is NOT prime eligible or my (friends) problem would be readily solved. Gotta love 3.99 overnight shipping..lol


----------



## Alrojoca

Pages 9-16 show most tests graphs. I was really disappointed about Stinger CLD performance also, just a hair better than the roof products, peel and seal and fat mat.

Dynamat worked great for me and I still have enough for 2 more doors and trunk or rear areas.


----------



## seafish

Alrojoca said:


> Pages 9-16 show most tests graphs. I was really disappointed about Stinger CLD performance also, just a hair better than the roof products, peel and seal and fat mat.
> 
> Dynamat worked great for me and I still have enough for 2 more doors and trunk or rear areas.


THANKS,super helpful…this thread is getting SOOOOOOO LOOOOOOONG that it need it's own index!! LOL


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm hoping to finish up and at that point, I'll talk to Brett about starting a new one, one in which I can post all results up in simple form before any replies are allowed. And then a link to the full, in depth pdf. Which will be a few hundred pages.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm hoping to finish up and at that point, I'll talk to Brett about starting a new one, one in which I can post all results up in simple form before any replies are allowed. And then a link to the full, in depth pdf. Which will be a few hundred pages.


Just let me know when.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## josby

seafish said:


> The BAD news first is simple. S-Lec Acoustic (and/or Solar) Interlayer Film is sold by the TON to both oem and aftermarket windshield manufacturers. It MUST be installed as an interlayer lamination in a controlled autoclave environment, as part of the windshield manufacturing process. It simply CANNOT be applied to the outside or inside of a windshield like other window tint films.


How about LLumar Security Film for glass? https://youtu.be/VyKlP2trTrc

It's not marketed as a noise reduction product, but still, I wonder if might be effective as one. It seems that to work it must absorb the energy of an impact and dissipate it, and I would think that might also reduce outside noise. 

The video is five years old, and looking at LLumar's site now, it doesn't appear they market this for cars anymore, but it's still available for windows of buildings.

I ran across the product on the site of my local tint shop, and plan to ask them about using it for this purpose when I go to get my windows tinted, but that won't be for several months at least. I figured I'd post in case anyone wants to investigate.


----------



## Darth SQ

I have what I deem to be a somewhat interesting observation regarding cld.
Over the last few weeks I've noticed that the colder it is outside the better the cld works.
When I pound on the roof panel with my hand, when it's cold out the oil drum sound is gone but when it's hot out it comes back just a little.
Obviously this has something to do with the butyl tightening up due to the lower temperatures but I was wondering if you found similar occurrences during your testing TSTF.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## country_hick

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I have what I deem to be a somewhat interesting observation regarding cld.
> Over the last few weeks I've noticed that the colder it is outside the better the cld works.
> When I pound on the roof panel with my hand, when it's cold out the oil drum sound is gone but when it's hot out it comes back just a little.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I would have expected the opposite to be true. I thought when warm the material would work better than when it was cold because the molecules can vibrate easier to absorb energy.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Cld has a high and low temp operating range. It falls off faster on the hot end than the cold end though.


----------



## SkizeR

so what other tests are left?


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Cld has a high and low temp operating range. It falls off faster on the hot end than the cold end though.


Interesting.
I just thumped on the exposed cld again (waiting for my headliner recovering to be completed) and it is a solid thud like thumping on a log.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

You guys see the new stuff Don is selling on SDS?
He replaced Acoustic Thinsulate with it in his product line.
It's called BASF Basotect and it's suppose to be a really good sound absorbing material.

3/4" Hydrophobic Melamine Foam | Sound Deadener Showdown


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If have to think thinsulate would be better for shoving into crevices, but this stuff would be great for a dashmat.


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If have to think thinsulate would be better for shoving into crevices, but this stuff would be great for a dashmat.


Not to argue, but I actually think that the thinsulate would be better sewn in behind or as part of a dash mat, though perhaps if you could laminate the entire dash with a layer of it and then cover the foam with leather/vinyl that might work…NOT sure how flexible the foam is??

That being said, the melamine foam looks PERFECT for using inside doors to help with adsorption/refelections on the inside of the door. I have some 2" OCF egg crate foam behind my door speakers that I will replace with THREE layers of this stuff and still roll the window up and down…2 1/4" of foam should help with adsorbing reflections down to 1 khz (did I do that right??)


----------



## country_hick

When I added 7/16" of of 8 lb carpet padding my noise at idle went from 85dba to 67-68dba. Adding a second layer got me down to 62-63dba. That went from a 17dba loss to approximately an additional 5db loss for a second layer. That is with a diesel that produces the low frequency sound waves. I am not sure how much more help adding another 4 layers would actually help. I could be wrong, but I thought that separate layers put together had less sound absorbing qualities compared to 1 layer of material in the same thickness.


----------



## rton20s

Speaking of "new" products, I mentioned this one to Chris already. These guys are attempting to market their product to some of the car audio groups on FB as a sound deadener. The guy posting about it has said he is interested in contacting Chris and getting him a sample for testing. 

Car Insulation - Lightweight Heat and Sound Insulation

Somehow, I don't see a CCF sandwiched between foil backers as being nearly as effective at dampening as CLD. And the 1/4" thickness isn't going to be too effective at absorbing sound either (especially with a foil layer on either side). It might work fine as a thermal barrier though.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Speaking of "new" products, I mentioned this one to Chris already. These guys are attempting to market their product to some of the car audio groups on FB as a sound deadener. The guy posting about it has said he is interested in contacting Chris and getting him a sample for testing.
> 
> Car Insulation - Lightweight Heat and Sound Insulation
> 
> Somehow, I don't see a CCF sandwiched between foil backers as being nearly as effective at dampening as CLD. And the 1/4" thickness isn't going to be too effective at absorbing sound either (especially with a foil layer on either side). It might work fine as a thermal barrier though.


That's highly likely to fail miserably as a sound deadening product. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## country_hick

rton20s said:


> Speaking of "new" products, I mentioned this one to Chris already. These guys are attempting to market their product to some of the car audio groups on FB as a sound deadener. The guy posting about it has said he is interested in contacting Chris and getting him a sample for testing.
> 
> Car Insulation - Lightweight Heat and Sound Insulation
> 
> Somehow, I don't see a CCF sandwiched between foil backers as being nearly as effective at dampening as CLD. And the 1/4" thickness isn't going to be too effective at absorbing sound either (especially with a foil layer on either side). It might work fine as a thermal barrier though.


That sounds like low-e insulation to me.
ESP Low-E Reflective Insulation - Home

2 layers installed in a citroen netted a 4dba drop. It went from 82dba to 78dba. That is hardly an effective soundproofing product. However, the heat reduction was dramatic!
citroen cx insulation


----------



## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That's highly likely to fail miserably as a sound deadening product.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

country_hick said:


> That sounds like low-e insulation to me.
> ESP Low-E Reflective Insulation - Home
> 
> 2 layers installed in a citroen netted a 4dba drop. It went from 82dba to 78dba. That is hardly an effective soundproofing product. However, the heat reduction was dramatic!
> citroen cx insulation


No doubt, and good find. Especially considering both products come out of PA.


----------



## SkizeR

"reduces unwanted sound by 10 plus decibels".. yeah maybe at 15khz :laugh


----------



## Donanon

I bought 12.5 square feet of .75" thick melamine foam off Ebay, paid about $13 shipped. I compared it directly to the Magic Eraser and it is exactly the same material. It is not hydrophobicly treated like the SDS product but I found a hydrophobic treatment spray product that permeates the melamine rendering it water proof. Cost of the treatment for 10 square feet of melamine foam is $8

I'm going to use a layer of the foam with a layer of Thinsulate for my dash mat, 
I haven't sound tested the foam yet but it if Don is using it then I am confident it will work. 


D.


----------



## Darth SQ

Donanon said:


> I bought 12.5 square feet of .75" thick melamine foam off Ebay, paid about $13 shipped. I compared it directly to the Magic Eraser and it is exactly the same material. It is not hydrophobicly treated like the SDS product but I found a hydrophobic treatment spray product that permeates the melamine rendering it water proof. Cost of the treatment for 10 square feet of melamine foam is $8
> 
> I'm going to use a layer of the foam with a layer of Thinsulate for my dash mat,
> I haven't sound tested the foam yet but it if Don is using it then I am confident it will work.
> 
> 
> D.


Link to the ebay auction you bought from please?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Donanon

Here is the Ebay link to the foam: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100PCS-Whit...am-/141617748068?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:CA:1120

I was wrong on the price I paid, the acutal price was $8.95 x 2 = $17.90

This is what I used for the hydrophobic treatment: 

Nano Technology Textile Impregnation Magic Spray Waterproof Hydrophobic Fabric | eBay

The treatment spray can be had less expensively but during my research into all this I was told that the NanoProm product was amoung the best available. Is it really nano-tech? Who knows but it works a treat.


D.


----------



## Bminus

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I have what I deem to be a somewhat interesting observation regarding cld.
> Over the last few weeks I've noticed that the colder it is outside the better the cld works.
> When I pound on the roof panel with my hand, when it's cold out the oil drum sound is gone but when it's hot out it comes back just a little.
> Obviously this has something to do with the butyl tightening up due to the lower temperatures but I was wondering if you found similar occurrences during your testing TSTF.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


In colder temperatures the metal will tighten up, thus reducing the amount of resonance... So IMO the CLD probably is giving the same amount of dampening as it was in the warmer temperatures, but the metal is less resonant. 

I know that conversation was like at the top of this page, but thought I'd throw that out there lol


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Bminus said:


> In colder temperatures the metal will tighten up, thus reducing the amount of resonance... So IMO the CLD probably is giving the same amount of dampening as it was in the warmer temperatures, but the metal is less resonant.
> 
> I know that conversation was like at the top of this page, but thought I'd throw that out there lol



Cld performance actually does vary by large amounts with temperature. Check out the tech sheets on cascade or dynamat's website for examples. There's generally a certain "most effective" temp, with performance falling off on either side of that.


----------



## Darth SQ

Bminus said:


> In colder temperatures the metal will tighten up, thus reducing the amount of resonance... So IMO the CLD probably is giving the same amount of dampening as it was in the warmer temperatures, but the metal is less resonant.
> 
> I know that conversation was like at the top of this page, but thought I'd throw that out there lol


Nah, while that may be true but the untreated areas in my Fit still have the same oil drum sound hot or cold.
It's the cld.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## etroze

Well ordered a few tiles from Don today and man all I can say is that guy is on point with transactions. I've used a ton of stinger products in the past so TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL thank you for making this thread, it gives a ton of insight to how CLD tiles work.


----------



## Darth SQ

Donanon said:


> Here is the Ebay link to the foam:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/100PCS-Whit...am-/141617748068?ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:CA:1120
> 
> I was wrong on the price I paid, the acutal price was $8.95 x 2 = $17.90
> 
> This is what I used for the hydrophobic treatment:
> 
> Nano Technology Textile Impregnation Magic Spray Waterproof Hydrophobic Fabric | eBay
> 
> The treatment spray can be had less expensively but during my research into all this I was told that the NanoProm product was amoung the best available. Is it really nano-tech? Who knows but it works a treat.
> 
> 
> D.


Thank you for the links.
I am having a ***** of a time finding 24 sqft of 3M Thinsulate so this might be a really good solution. 
So there's 100 pieces with the dimensions of each piece roughly 2x8x3/4". 
Did they ship them compressed?
95 cents shipping from China seems awfully cheap.
How are you planning to attach them to the surface?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Donanon

You're welcome.

"How are you planning to attach them to the surface?"

For my dash mat I'll butt them together and loop stitch the individual pieces to each other forming a mat, for the roof or doors I'd do the same and also stitch in some good quality velcro or heavy cloth to take what ever adhesive one might like to use.

The package the pads come in is small and when opened they expand like mad. I'll be ordering a few more packages for future projects.


D.


----------



## Darth SQ

Donanon said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> "How are you planning to attach them to the surface?"
> 
> For my dash mat I'll butt them together and loop stitch the individual pieces to each other forming a mat, for the roof or doors I'd do the same and also stitch in some good quality velcro or heavy cloth to take what ever adhesive one might like to use.
> 
> The package the pads come in is small and when opened they expand like mad. I'll be ordering a few more packages for future projects.
> 
> 
> D.


I think I'm going to pull the trigger on two packs of these and give them a try. 
It's very little coin and may solve my current impasse with Thinsulate.
If they don't work then I can always give the lot to my wife for our anniversary. 
She just loves receiving house cleaning supplies and appliances on our special day. 

TSTF, you want me to save you a block for testing?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If it's just plain melamine foam, I have some, I use it as my stylus cleaner for my record player. Works wonders at that. I have the arm n hammer brand, but from the package it's just plain melamine foam ad well.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If it's just plain melamine foam, I have some, I use it as my stylus cleaner for my record player. Works wonders at that. I have the arm n hammer brand, but from the package it's just plain melamine foam as well.


Yeah same stuff.
How absolutely cool it would be if this stuff could replace products like Black Hole. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## CZ Eddie

Anyone know of a memorial day sale on kno knoise kolossus or 2nd skin?


----------



## Duckstu

RE BlackHole Tiles;

A friend said he has tested them,.. and they don't do anything. That the surface is sealed,.. and the sound waves don't go into the material,. but rather just reflect off.

He is a top audio engineer that designs and calibrates car stereos for a major manufacturer and has a big lab with lots of testing equipment,... so he's generally correct.

Has anyone tested them?

Being slick on the face seems like it wouldn't work at all (except perhaps as added mass like Dynamat etc). I have used Auralex products in the home before,.. and they work great. but they're an open-cell foam. And they only work for fairly high frequencies. To deal with the big problem areas in a door (such as 500 hz),.. you'd need an open-cell product nearly 13" thick.
.
.


----------



## SkizeR

Duckstu said:


> RE BlackHole Tiles;
> 
> A friend said he has tested them,.. and they don't do anything. That the surface is sealed,.. and the sound waves don't go into the material,. but rather just reflect off.
> 
> He is a top audio engineer that designs and calibrates car stereos for a major manufacturer and has a big lab with lots of testing equipment,... so he's generally correct.
> 
> Has anyone tested them?
> 
> Being slick on the face seems like it wouldn't work at all (except perhaps as added mass like Dynamat etc). I have used Auralex products in the home before,.. and they work great. but they're an open-cell foam. And they only work for fairly high frequencies. To deal with the big problem areas in a door (such as 500 hz),.. you'd need an open-cell product nearly 13" thick.
> .
> .


the thing i see wrong with this is that frequencies shorter than what seals them pretty much go right through said barrier since its so thin.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I tested black hole tiles and got the same results, as in no difference. 

They do add mass, but that's not what dynamat does. It's a viscoelastic based constrained layer damper.


----------



## jb4674

Did you get a chance to include Hushmat Ultra in your tests? If so, how did it perform?


----------



## josby

Man, I just read about a new invention for quieting airplane cabins that sounds awesome. .25mm thick, weighs about .25lb per square foot, and has a sound transmission loss of 45dB below 500Hz. Hopefully Stinger or someone will license this and market it for cars.

Press Release


----------



## rton20s

I'd like to read the full paper, but I'm sure not going to pay $28.00 or even $4.00 to do it.


----------



## Second Skin

CZ Eddie said:


> Anyone know of a memorial day sale on kno knoise kolossus or 2nd skin?


Yes we had a 10% off sale but it is over now. Always check our Facebook, Instagram, DIYMA sub forum, or many other forums for our discounts and sales, next one coming up is our 4th of July sale.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

josby said:


> Man, I just read about a new invention for quieting airplane cabins that sounds awesome. .25mm thick, weighs about .25lb per square foot, and has a sound transmission loss of 45dB below 500Hz. Hopefully Stinger or someone will license this and market it for cars.
> 
> Press Release


Seems like it needs a honeycomb composite structure to make it work. Dont think it would really be helpful unless the car was designed for it. 

I think aerodynamics are the biggest untapped area for quieting cars. According to GM, the majority of manufacturers that rent their wind tunnel now days are doing it in an attempt to reduce noise.


----------



## Darth SQ

josby said:


> Man, I just read about a new invention for quieting airplane cabins that sounds awesome. .25mm thick, weighs about .25lb per square foot, and has a sound transmission loss of 45dB below 500Hz. Hopefully Stinger or someone will license this and market it for cars.
> 
> Press Release


CCF/Membrane/CCF....hmmm.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## josby

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Seems like it needs a honeycomb composite structure to make it work. Dont think it would really be helpful unless the car was designed for it.
> 
> I think aerodynamics are the biggest untapped area for quieting cars. According to GM, the majority of manufacturers that rent their wind tunnel now days are doing it in an attempt to reduce noise.


Oh yeah, I see what you mean - it does sound like the 45dB STL was the material attached to a honeycomb frame, so it may well not do much on its own without that structure. Depending on the specifics of that honeycomb, though, maybe it could be flexible and applied as a sheet. 

I'm surprised about that wind tunnel stuff - I ran across this Youtube video a while back detailing the steps GM took to make the Buick Verano quieter and it seems to be mostly focused on engine noise and tire noise. Just thicker glass and lamination mentioned for wind noise.

It's an interesting video - no CLD at all, looks like they use what they call liquid applied sound deadener instead. Foam then a mass barrier over top of that in some places, something that looks like 3M Thinsulate in others.


----------



## Darth SQ

I got a 200 gross count package today of melamine foam blocks and a new can of spray adhesive.
There goes my weekend.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Theslaking

TSTF, 
Maybe you can help me make a decision. I will be replacing the carpet in my wife's SUV soon. I am trying to decide whether to upgrade the carpet to have mass backing or just put two layers of SDS mlv. I know the mass backing is effective and extremely convenient as it is already attached to carpet and molded to the correct shape. Is the mlv going to perform that much better? The mass backing is an $80 upgrade. I am putting one layer of mlv no matter what but Should I do two and skip the mass backing? Have you tested any vehicle carpet mass backing?


----------



## Donanon

"Seems like it needs a honeycomb composite structure to make it work."

Thats not how I read it. The honeycomb structure in aircraft is part of the existing design and the new wonder material by happy coincidence works when incorporated into said existing design...in this case into an area it can be very effective in.

If I were to use this in a car I would use it with a stiffener, either a thin -5mm cardboard octagonal shipping crate material, a thin built up blue foam layer with many speed holes or even a thin ply brace system...all of which can be built or bought and weatherised cheaply and will present the damping material as a flat plane to sound waves. Even sandwiching the material between two layers of stiff open cell foam might work.


D.


----------



## Darth SQ

Thought you guys would like to see some pics of the melamine foam blocks going in my Honda Fit.
BTW, use this Ebay supplier instead.

100pcs Cleaning Magic Sponge Eraser Melamine Cleaner Multi Functional Foam USA | eBay

He's located in the U.S.A. for faster shipping and also cuz my Chinese supplier shorted my order. :mean:
I sprayed the back of about 30 blocks at a time with Permatex Headliner spray adhesive and then placed them one by one.







I cut to fit the last row of blocks making for a nice cozy thick blanket of melamine foam.



Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

I LIKE it!!! … am very curious to get your opinions on how it works to deaden outside noise as well as change interior sound characteristics by adsorbing reflections in the 10kz up range


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Theslaking said:


> TSTF,
> Maybe you can help me make a decision. I will be replacing the carpet in my wife's SUV soon. I am trying to decide whether to upgrade the carpet to have mass backing or just put two layers of SDS mlv. I know the mass backing is effective and extremely convenient as it is already attached to carpet and molded to the correct shape. Is the mlv going to perform that much better? The mass backing is an $80 upgrade. I am putting one layer of mlv no matter what but Should I do two and skip the mass backing? Have you tested any vehicle carpet mass backing?


Sorry i missed this. It would probably be easier to do the heavy carpet and one layer. Not sure how much room between the carpet and metal, but it should be easier to get back in that way.


Bret, looking forward to results.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Bret, looking forward to results.


Me too.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Theslaking

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Sorry i missed this. It would probably be easier to do the heavy carpet and one layer. Not sure how much room between the carpet and metal, but it should be easier to get back in that way.


There is plenty of room. Doubleing up won't be a problem as far as fit. What I am really asking is have you tested any automotive mass backing? It will probably take me three times as long to do a second layer of mlv. So with hours saved by using heavey carpet will I be losing a lot of deadening properties by using the mass backing over mlv? If you haven't tested I will be very appreciative and accepting of your opinion on this matter.




TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Bret, looking forward to results.


Me three! The roof in my blazer is solid wood. I did it many years ago when I was going for SPL numbers. I stops flex but doesn't help with sound deadening. I am going to take it out a redo it something like you. As soon as you let us know how well it works


----------



## country_hick

Theslaking said:


> There is plenty of room. Doubleing up won't be a problem as far as fit. What I am really asking is have you tested any automotive mass backing? It will probably take me three times as long to do a second layer of mlv. So with hours saved by using heavey carpet will I be losing a lot of deadening properties by using the mass backing over mlv? If you haven't tested I will be very appreciative and accepting of your opinion on this matter.


Check out what I did. To get my door sills to fit again I had to remove a few inches of the second layer. --> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ound-reduction-journey-some-good-results.html


----------



## Darth SQ

Theslaking said:


> TSTF,
> Maybe you can help me make a decision. I will be replacing the carpet in my wife's SUV soon. I am trying to decide whether to upgrade the carpet to have mass backing or just put two layers of SDS mlv. I know the mass backing is effective and extremely convenient as it is already attached to carpet and molded to the correct shape. Is the mlv going to perform that much better? The mass backing is an $80 upgrade. I am putting one layer of mlv no matter what but Should I do two and skip the mass backing? Have you tested any vehicle carpet mass backing?


What is the SUV?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## alex912005

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Thought you guys would like to see some pics of the melamine foam blocks going in my Honda Fit.
> BTW, use this Ebay supplier instead.
> 
> 100pcs Cleaning Magic Sponge Eraser Melamine Cleaner Multi Functional Foam USA | eBay
> 
> He's located in the U.S.A. for faster shipping and also cuz my Chinese supplier shorted my order. :mean:
> I sprayed the back of about 30 blocks at a time with Permatex Headliner spray adhesive and then placed them one by one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cut to fit the last row of blocks making for a nice cozy thick blanket of melamine foam.
> 
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Will the headliner still fit over that?


----------



## Darth SQ

alex912005 said:


> Will the headliner still fit over that?


Yep. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


lucky


----------



## Donanon

Yesterday I removed the Thinsulate from the front doors of my car and replaced it with the melamine, IMO and totally unscientificly there was no difference in damping qualities between the two products.

Next chance I get I'll do the switch again and take measurements...but so far it's looking good.


D.


----------



## josby

Donanon said:


> Next chance I get I'll do the switch again and take measurements...but so far it's looking good.


If you do, how about taking measurements with neither in place also? I'd be curious to see how much difference they make compared to nothing.


----------



## Donanon

"how about taking measurements with neither in place also?"

Good idea, I'll do that. 


D.


----------



## 15TACO

Dear Toostubborn2fail,

I have read most of the 51 pages of this thread plus a few more on another thread about sound deadening. I have read that the best value is the Knukonceptz Kolossus. From what I've seen it is a CLD.

I am primarily interested in reducing road noise. SDS indicates the bulk of that noise comes through the floor and firewall. I believe SDS recommends MLV over CCF.

How do I reconcile these? For road noise, what is the most cost effective solution?

Thank you,

2015 Taco


----------



## Babs

15TACO said:


> Dear Toostubborn2fail,
> 
> I have read most of the 51 pages of this thread plus a few more on another thread about sound deadening. I have read that the best value is the Knukonceptz Kolossus. From what I've seen it is a CLD.
> 
> I am primarily interested in reducing road noise. SDS indicates the bulk of that noise comes through the floor and firewall. I believe SDS recommends MLV over CCF.
> 
> How do I reconcile these? For road noise, what is the most cost effective solution?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> 2015 Taco


Firewall, floor and also the roof are all big hitters. CLD at appropriate percentages over the metal surfaces, then yes a layer of CCF, then MLV (floor, inner wheel wells if you can get to them, trunk and firewall).

The trick with MLV is a very small uncovered area will have a large impact though, so unfortunately with MLV, you need as close to 100% coverage as possible which in car we know is impossible, but do the best we can. CLD can be effective at even 50% coverage for resonance/ringing damping. The CCF is to "decouple" the sheet metal from the MLV which acts as an inert barrier. 

For the roof, CLD alone on the can be quite helpful as there's a lot of transmission from the lower body up through the pillars, and wind buffeting directly. And since you're there, hit the pillars too.


----------



## Darth SQ

Just an addendum to the compiled conclusions from the cld tests TSTF.
I am thoroughly pleased to know that the thickness of the aluminum backing adds little to the product's effectiveness.
I've been working with AlphaDamp (10mil aluminum) in all my builds and the thick backing has been a real ***** to get to conform to compound curves.
As a result I've been using Dynamat Xtreme for the really complex shapes and it's been soooo much better to work with.
Once my supply of AD runs out, I will be switching to DX from that point on.
Thank you for all your testing that has gleaned little tidbits like that. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## 15TACO

Babs said:


> Firewall, floor and also the roof are all big hitters. CLD at appropriate percentages over the metal surfaces, then yes a layer of CCF, then MLV (floor, inner wheel wells if you can get to them, trunk and firewall).
> 
> ...stuff deleted...
> 
> For the roof, CLD alone on the can be quite helpful as there's a lot of transmission from the lower body up through the pillars, and wind buffeting directly. And since you're there, hit the pillars too.


That response pretty much covers it, pun intended. However, CLD + CCF + MLV <> COST EFFECTIVE solution. Possibly the best, but not most cost effective. 

It also doesn't reconcile what I have read. I would like to reduce my confusion in addition to the noise.

Important note. A Tacoma doesn't have a trunk. Floor, check. Firewall, check. Wheel wells, check. Nope...definitely no trunk.

So most cost effective way to reduce road noise? Caveat with the car in motion ; )

Thank you,
2015 Taco


----------



## Alrojoca

15TACO said:


> Dear Toostubborn2fail,
> 
> I have read most of the 51 pages of this thread plus a few more on another thread about sound deadening. I have read that the best value is the Knukonceptz Kolossus. From what I've seen it is a CLD.
> 
> I am primarily interested in reducing road noise. SDS indicates the bulk of that noise comes through the floor and firewall. I believe SDS recommends MLV over CCF.
> 
> How do I reconcile these? For road noise, what is the most cost effective solution?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> 2015 Taco



Unless you have a sub downfiring on the floor no CLD is needed on the floor to reduce road noise. In this case some CLD around the area where the sub is downfiring, upfiring or sidefiring just in case. 

Simply CCF MLV on the floor, tapping on metal if weak or it flexes then some CLD will help, if no flex and no hollow sound, no need to add CLD.


----------



## Darth SQ

Alrojoca said:


> Unless you have a sub downfiring on the floor no CLD is needed on the floor to reduce road noise. In this case some CLD around the area where the sub is downfiring, upfiring or sidefiring just in case.
> 
> Simply CCF MLV on the floor, tapping on metal if weak or it flexes then some CLD will help, if no flex and no hollow sound, no need to add CLD.


Ohh I disagree. 
Even the factories that build these vehicles put some cld down on the floors.
I wish you guys were in NorCal.
I'd take you all for a drive so you can hear it for yourselves what this stuff can do.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## 15TACO

Thank you alrojoca.

So comments about Kolossus being the best bang for the buck do not really apply for just deadening road noise. Would you agree? 

Sounds like Kolossus would be good for the roof if I drop the headliner and on insides of the door panels...that's ambiguous...well not the door trim panels.

Thanks again 
2015 Taco


----------



## papasin

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Ohh I disagree.
> 
> Even the factories that build these vehicles put some cld down on the floors.
> 
> I wish you guys were in NorCal.
> 
> I'd take you all for a drive so you can hear it for yourselves what this stuff can do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bret
> 
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR



Lol, Bret, you realize Al was at my gtg, same one you were at.


----------



## Darth SQ

papasin said:


> Lol, Bret, you realize Al was at my gtg, same one you were at.


Then he can come for a ride at the next one. 
And no I didn't look to see where he was before I typed.
My post was more for the DIYMA members that are trying to decide what do use and how.
I know the cost of all the materials sucks guys but there's a reason we use them and place them in a specific amount and manner.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## 15TACO

PPI ART...thank you also. However, I am about 40 minutes north of the US/Mexican border and you are in the northern CA Sierras. I appreciate your offer, but you are 300 miles away...likely more. Beautiful country up there.

I have a boring factory radio and speakers. Yawn. I used to a very nice home audio system.

My focus has shifted to preventing he aring loss...or, at least, hearing what I am listening to. Road noise just makes it that much more difficult.

2015 Taco


----------



## Alrojoca

Ha ha, the only way to be sure is to mesure before and after, What I read at SDS and also from Chris here on this and other threads is CLD helps, it just does not reduces as many DB's as CCF under the MLV when it comes to road noise, some road noise frequencies are not reduced 

And next time I will be happy to take that ride with Bret to see how solid and smooth the full deadening feels. 

Taco15
Ceilings, may vary from car to car when it comes to road noise maybe Chris can provide some info, MLV on the ceiling is hard to bond and heavy, something lighter like thinsulate may be more efective and 1000% lighter. Or ensolite peel and seal. Check the sound deadening showdown.com site for more details and other materials that can be used on the ceiling and more information about ceiling and noise.

Richard, I hope we can have a another GTG in the next few months if it's not too hot


----------



## Donanon

"other materials that can be used on the ceiling"

I vote for melamine foam, lite, easily installed and not near expensive as Thinsulate. I just bought another 40 square feet for under my head liner and to stuff any areas that might benifit.


D.


----------



## 15TACO

Is all MLV over CCF the same?

Is most of the discussion here about what is the best CLD - performance or cost effective?

There is a company in San Marcos, CA that sells 1 lb/Sq ft MLV bonded to 1/4 in CCF in 48 in wide pieces. More or less local. I wouldn't have to ship 80 lbs of material which is a savings. They primarily focus on buildings and small aircraft.

So is most MLV over CCF pretty much the same?

OTOH, they had no idea what CLD was when I asked about it.

Thanks 
15TACO


----------



## josby

15TACO said:


> Is all MLV over CCF the same?


I haven't seen anyone do any tests (like the ones 2S2F has done here for CLD) to compare MLV and CCF products, so I don't think anyone can answer that for you. But for MLV at least, since the functionality of it just comes from its mass, I would guess any MLV of the same lbs/sq-ft rating would perform the same. MLV also has an STC rating that might let you compare, but I don't know how reliable/standardized those ratings are.



15TACO said:


> Is most of the discussion here about what is the best CLD - performance or cost effective?


Yes - note the thread title.


----------



## Alrojoca

15TACO said:


> Is all MLV over CCF the same?
> 
> Is most of the discussion here about what is the best CLD - performance or cost effective?
> 
> 
> 
> So is most MLV over CCF pretty much the same?
> 
> OTOH, they had no idea what CLD was when I asked about it.
> 
> Thanks
> 15TACO


Maybe other threads will get in to more details about CCF and MLV, there are quite a few, we don't want to get off topic although, many have provided the best help and advice here.


You can glue the CCF to the MLV, maybe PVC sprinkler pipe glue, or spray adhesive like loctite 300, I stitll have pieces together around that I glued like over 2 years ago.

If the CCF is 1/4" thick it would be hard to place the door cards back on unless the foam compresses a lot. That is probably why Dynamat and S skin use thinner materials to be sure it will work on the doors. The all in one is quite costly but it sure saves a lot of time during installations.


----------



## Older

This is an excellent thread and I can't wait to see the results. I wandered over from a vintage car forum and my interest is in lowering the (mostly) road noise in my 47 year old convertible. While restoring it I stripped off the factory goo (resembled asphalt shingles) due to extensive rust and she's not nearly as quiet anymore. 
I want to compliment you on your testing methods. Despite being *only* an anthropologist, I certainly recognize the validity of your testing methodology. Well done.


----------



## country_hick

15TACO said:


> Is all MLV over CCF the same?


I have seen MLV with DB reductions that changed 1 or 2 db. MLV is not a standardized product. Its ingredients and percentages can vary by manufacturer. While the sound reduction will always be similar from one MLV to another it will not be exactly the same. Look for DB reduction charts to compare products.


----------



## Instaburn

Would it be wise to put MLV on the underside of a trunk-lid... if the subs in the trunk fire upwards, toward the trunk-lid?
I'm sure it would reduce rattles... but would it also just absorb all the bass and severely muffle the sub's output?


----------



## Alrojoca

Instaburn said:


> Would it be wise to put MLV on the underside of a trunk-lid... if the subs in the trunk fire upwards, toward the trunk-lid?
> I'm sure it would reduce rattles... but would it also just absorb all the bass and severely muffle the sub's output?


I don't have too much experience with trunks, I assume no need for MLV on the T lid, besides getting the MLV to stay on fighting gravity, road and exhaust noise transfers from the bottom area of the trunk, the lid only needs CLD dampening to reduce flexing and rattles.

If flexing is a big issue, some metal bracing added may be a good option


----------



## Instaburn

Alrojoca said:


> I don't have too much experience with trunks, I assume no need for MLV on the T lid, besides getting the MLV to stay on fighting gravity, road and exhaust noise transfers from the bottom area of the trunk, the lid only needs CLD dampening to reduce flexing and rattles.
> 
> If flexing is a big issue, some metal bracing added may be a good option


Thanks for the advice..
Here is what the trunk lid looks like right now.
Not the most beautiful thing...but the goal was to reduce vibrations as much as possible.
I even sprayed some 3M Rubberized undercoat spray into the holes in order to maximize vibration reduction.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have to be honest. You'd be best off removing all of the fatmat and replacing it with almost anything else. Fatmat is a bottom of the line performer. So low in actual performance that I cant possibly recommend it to anyone for any purpose aside from maybe roofing their house.


----------



## seafish

Instaburn said:


> I even sprayed some 3M Rubberized undercoat spray into the holes in order to maximize vibration reduction.


Carefully using a semi expanding foam to fill the panels between the holes would be much better then the undercoating. 3m also makes just such a product.


----------



## Theslaking

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I have to be honest. You'd be best off removing all of the fatmat and replacing it with almost anything else. Fatmat is a bottom of the line performer. So low in actual performance that I cant possibly recommend it to anyone for any purpose aside from maybe roofing their house.


I'm in the process of ripping it out of my vehicle. Straight garbage. It's not totally useless if you already own it. It covers small holes!


----------



## Instaburn

Wayy too late for me to "rip out" anything at this point.
I appreciate the advice, but the objective was to reduce rattling and resonance from the trunk due to the subs firing straight at the trunk-lid.
Call me crazy, but when I did the knock and listen method, it sounded "more dead" after the application of fatmat.
I'm definitely not the expert, but I honestly don't think it was a complete waste of time to put the fatmat down or the 3M under coat spray.
I completely understand if the trunk rattles like crazy and the whole rear half of the car resonates like a mofo. I just seriously doubt it will.
I spent enough time, I absolutely would not let the car sound crappy because of the sound deadening.
If fatmat fails, I will be the first to rip it out.


----------



## Theslaking

Rip it out. It doesn't all fail. I had some stick well. To the point I am having a real hard time removing it. But other stuff, nearly all on the roof, failed. Your trunk lid is the same type of installation as my roof. I did not cut any corners. I cleaned, dried, and then rolled the mat on. Here is a link to my build log. There is pics in there of the failure and damage it caused to me equipment.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gallery/172439-93-s10-blazer-all-eclipse.html


----------



## Darth SQ

Instaburn said:


> Thanks for the advice..
> Here is what the trunk lid looks like right now.
> Not the most beautiful thing...but the goal was to reduce vibrations as much as possible.
> I even sprayed some 3M Rubberized undercoat spray into the holes in order to maximize vibration reduction.


Clean installation of the cld I must say Insta. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Instaburn

Theslaking said:


> Rip it out. It doesn't all fail. I had some stick well. To the point I am having a real hard time removing it. But other stuff, nearly all on the roof, failed. Your trunk lid is the same type of installation as my roof. I did not cut any corners. I cleaned, dried, and then rolled the mat on. Here is a link to my build log. There is pics in there of the failure and damage it caused to me equipment.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gallery/172439-93-s10-blazer-all-eclipse.html


Still going to stand by and say that this stuff is nowhere near "ready to fall off" ... it is really really on there.
Maybe when it gets hot??? I dunno.
That stuff hasn't budged it has sat for a couple days in my garage during this heat... and I'd say the garage is at least 100+ deg. during the middle of the day.


----------



## chucko58

Instaburn said:


> Still going to stand by and say that this stuff is nowhere near "ready to fall off" ... it is really really on there.
> Maybe when it gets hot??? I dunno.
> That stuff hasn't budged it has sat for a couple days in my garage during this heat... and I'd say the garage is at least 100+ deg. during the middle of the day.


The real test will come when you park the car out in direct sun on a really hot day.


----------



## Nothingface5384

rton20s said:


> Speaking of "new" products, I mentioned this one to Chris already. These guys are attempting to market their product to some of the car audio groups on FB as a sound deadener. The guy posting about it has said he is interested in contacting Chris and getting him a sample for testing.
> 
> Car Insulation - Lightweight Heat and Sound Insulation
> 
> Somehow, I don't see a CCF sandwiched between foil backers as being nearly as effective at dampening as CLD. And the 1/4" thickness isn't going to be too effective at absorbing sound either (especially with a foil layer on either side). It might work fine as a thermal barrier though.


I think hes a v8 buick member and he foind oit aboit this thread as i posted allot on this subject and threw this link out once or twice.
I came to notice this product yesterday when he posted on buick performance groups FB page and he didnt like what ive had to say
apparently you and i came to the same conclusion to how this prodict will work..
But he said im clueless, im no expert 
Yet he compares it to dynomat extreme on his site and he knows his market(i stated he doesnt due to that comparison and the fact he claims it does every aspect of deadening) and knows it works..though it cant as it has no constraining layer nor have any mass/density

he should just advertise it as a thermal matting


----------



## Nothingface5384

country_hick said:


> That sounds like low-e insulation to me.
> ESP Low-E Reflective Insulation - Home
> 
> 2 layers installed in a citroen netted a 4dba drop. It went from 82dba to 78dba. That is hardly an effective soundproofing product. However, the heat reduction was dramatic!
> citroen cx insulation


I think you're right 
Both his product and this as mentioned are noth in PA
googled his number and a tint shop comes with same num and html template
http://www.lehighvalleywindowtint.com/windowtint/Automotivewindowtint.htm
so very likely hes redistributing with his brand name


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

Well, I just did my doors with Kolossus. I put sheets covering the entire outer skin/from inside of course, and then I covered all I could on the skin that faces the inside/door panels, without getting into the window mechanism and such. But each door ate about 2.5 to 3 sheets!

The doors now feel super nice. Heavier, more solid, and super nice feel when you shut them. The KOlossus was pretty easy to work with. Minimal finger cuts, very sticky stuff. My order of 35sqft was about 39 pounds. More than half went to the doors.

*I don't even know if what I did is good for the SQ, but the doors are dead!*


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Nothingface5384 said:


> I think hes a v8 buick member and he foind oit aboit this thread as i posted allot on this subject and threw this link out once or twice.
> I came to notice this product yesterday when he posted on buick performance groups FB page and he didnt like what ive had to say
> apparently you and i came to the same conclusion to how this prodict will work..
> But he said im clueless, im no expert
> Yet he compares it to dynomat extreme on his site and he knows his market(i stated he doesnt due to that comparison and the fact he claims it does every aspect of deadening) and knows it works..though it cant as it has no constraining layer nor have any mass/density
> 
> he should just advertise it as a thermal matting


Yeah, he never contacted me. Doubt he'd be willing to supply any at this point for objective testing.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Oh, and just in case I'm slow to reply, I'll be answering posts on my phone when I get the chance. Working several hours of ot again, everyday, probably for the next month and a half, so I don't really have the time to sit down at the computer for a bit.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Oh, and just in case I'm slow to reply, I'll be answering posts on my phone when I get the chance. Working several hours of ot again, everyday, probably for the next month and a half, so I don't really have the time to sit down at the computer for a bit.


Ok well then this would be a good time to ask you using your phone to list out the top 100 clds in order of test results.
I need it done by this afternoon please. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Ok well then this would be a good time to ask you using your phone to list out the top 100 clds in order of test results.
> I need it done by this afternoon please.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Since Chris is so busy, I can respond with at least the top four...


CarInsulation.com
Peel & Seal
Fat Mat
Lead pellets suspended in silicone

The other 96 are up to Chris.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Since Chris is so busy, I can respond with at least the top four...
> 
> 
> CarInsulation.com
> Peel & Seal
> Fat Mat
> Lead pellets suspended in silicone
> 
> The other 96 are up to Chris.



Don't forget the emoticons! As I've learned on this forum, if you don't use them, someone might actually take it too seriously.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Since Chris is so busy, I can respond with at least the top four...
> 
> 
> CarInsulation.com
> Peel & Seal
> Fat Mat
> Lead pellets suspended in silicone
> 
> The other 96 are up to Chris.


Ok that was funny right there! 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Don't forget the emoticons! As I've learned on this forum, if you don't use them, someone might actually take it too seriously.


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Yeah, he never contacted me. Doubt he'd be willing to supply any at this point for objective testing.


i can always paypal ya the $$ to buy some
or ill buy some and ship it to you
if anyone is really interested


----------



## SQLnovice

I ordered 28 square foot of the knu 100 mill for the deadening of my new car. 
And I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I always ordered directly from knu website. They were charging me $13.99 for shipping. However, when ordering from their amazon store, shipping was free. 
I just need some CCF and MLV now.


----------



## Brian_smith06

papasin said:


> Don't forget the emoticons! As I've learned on this forum, if you don't use them, someone might actually take it too seriously.


wait he wasn't serious! back to the drawing board


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

SQLnovice,

Just did my doors yesterday with this. just a few minor cuts from getting it deep down into the inner and outer door skins. I wiped the surface best I could. This stuff is sticky. But 350f is not impossible in SoCal, which is the MAX for this stuff.

*I used 15 sheets in the 4 doors!*


----------



## rton20s

Brian_smith06 said:


> wait he wasn't serious! back to the drawing board


Just quintuple up the layers and you'll be fine. Or. In the case of the silicone suspended lead pellets, use at least a 1 5/8" thick coating. 

And for Richard... here is my emoticon.

:dunce2:


----------



## country_hick

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Yeah, he never contacted me. Doubt he'd be willing to supply any at this point for objective testing.


That looks like low-e insulation to me.

EZ Cool Automotive Insulation heat barrier and noise reduction for cars, trucks, classic cars, street rods and much more sells what looks like the same stuff.

citroen cx insulation Shows it being used. 2 layers dropped 4db (shown in the last paragraph). It is not impressive for sound reduction. However, the heat drop was tremendous. I would use it on a car roof for heat reduction or in a whole house.

ESP Low-E Reflective Insulation - Home is the company that makes it (but does not sell direct). Low-e insulated fiber reinforcing 1/4" x 4' x 125' scrimmed is the product (cut to size by the reseller). They will send you a free sample that measures about 7 3/4" x 11 1/2". I got one.


----------



## hawaiiguy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So like many other people, I'm tired of wondering what CLD ACTUALLY works best.
> 
> 
> I went the budget route and couldn't be happier, for my 06 tundra dbl cab I used, based on internet suggestions, Home Depot frost king peel and stick @ $17.00 a roll x 2 rolls. also used 3/8" carpet foam sprayed onto back of door panels around speakers. I am completely blown away at the pro insulation quality it provided for under $50.00 for the whole truck. No Rattles, vibrations, knocks etc.
> 
> 
> Focal 100rms K2's front
> Focal 300rms 8" V2 sub in custom bubinga wood enclosure
> Focal 600.4 digital amp
> and 6.5 coax polks fro the rear doors.


----------



## Alrojoca

This stuff Frost King E/O 12 in. x 15 ft. Self-Stick Foam/Foil Duct Insulation-FV516 - The Home Depot

It needs some serious glue to stay on, the aluminum foil comes off the foam, the adhesive on the foam that glues to any surface is also bad and will not stay on. Without some 3M adhesive or some good glue, all I can say is good luck, it will come off inside a car door.

I used it just to fill gaps, air gaps between the panel and inner door, good thing I only used for the rear doors, the foam is a cheap rubber decent density foam with a shiny look, hard to know if it will last long. I may inspect it this summer since it has been there for over 2 years, I hope I do not have to remove it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

hawaiiguy said:


> TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:
> 
> 
> 
> So like many other people, I'm tired of wondering what CLD ACTUALLY works best.
> 
> 
> I went the budget route and couldn't be happier, for my 06 tundra dbl cab I used, based on internet suggestions, Home Depot frost king peel and stick @ $17.00 a roll x 2 rolls. also used 3/8" carpet foam sprayed onto back of door panels around speakers. I am completely blown away at the pro insulation quality it provided for under $50.00 for the whole truck. No Rattles, vibrations, knocks etc.
> 
> 
> Focal 100rms K2's front
> Focal 300rms 8" V2 sub in custom bubinga wood enclosure
> Focal 600.4 digital amp
> and 6.5 coax polks fro the rear doors.
> 
> 
> 
> Over time it will get brittle and stop doing what little it is doing now. Sorry, but objective tests show that roofing and thermal insulation products are just flat out inferior to most real car audio sound deadeners (not counting those few car audio brands that are rebadged roofing products). In a closed environment like in the house where I test, you can even hear when a product performs poorly or performs well. Difference is harder to tell in a car, but no roofing product compares to anything from stinger/dynamat/second skin/stp atlantic/knukonceptz/sds/etc. It's not always a case of you get what you pay for, but it is when you use roofing materials for sound deadener.
Click to expand...


----------



## hawaiiguy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> hawaiiguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Over time it will get brittle and stop doing what little it is doing now. Sorry, but objective tests show that roofing and thermal insulation products are just flat out inferior to most real car audio sound deadeners
> 
> As I read about a lot of "pro" products smelling like tar (GT/Dyna etc.), which makes since as its 30-80 mil tar with foil back. I didn't want my trucks interior to be lined with tar so I went with the frost king. Also having used the frost king to wrap my furnace feed duct that feeds to my attic it had performed exceptionally over the past 7 years its been in the room. So having withstood gas heat and ac from the source I felt it passed the 7 year test so, good enough for my truck. I'm really happy with the application so far, although its only been 4 months the sound is still awesome, no rattles etc. The XX's debut album plays superbly which is the first test I put it to. So very happy with the frost king/foam pad purchase, which is just my personal input.
> 
> If I did buy "pro" SD it would be Focal BAM closed cell system but at $400+ I decided to get there amazing amp deal instead as it was a floor model for half price
Click to expand...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Unfortunately, bam is another one in the overpriced/uderperforming list. Which again is why I started this process. People assume because it's made by focal, it must be good, but it's not.

Also, the good products neither smell like tar or are made of tar. Dynamat is made of butyl rubber, as are all the better products. Gtmat is one of those rebadged roofing products I was talking about, and yes they are made with asphalt.

The problem with personal input, and I truly don't mean this as a dig at you, is the same problem with most reviews on the internet, or marketing bs a shop sells you. Few people have had ALL of these products on hand at once, and the people that have objectively tested all of them against each other objectively without bias can be counted on one hand. And out of them, I'm the only one willing to show the data.


----------



## Theslaking

Instaburn said:


> Still going to stand by and say that this stuff is nowhere near "ready to fall off" ... it is really really on there.
> Maybe when it gets hot??? I dunno.
> That stuff hasn't budged it has sat for a couple days in my garage during this heat... and I'd say the garage is at least 100+ deg. during the middle of the day.


It didn't fall off for over a year. Either way, to me, not worth the risk.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The problem with personal input, and I truly don't mean this as a dig at you, is the same problem with most reviews on the internet, or marketing bs a shop sells you. Few people have had ALL of these products on hand at once, and the people that have objectively tested all of them against each other objectively without bias can be counted on one hand. And out of them, I'm the only one willing to show the data.


----------



## hawaiiguy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Unfortunately, bam is another one in the overpriced/uderperforming list. Which again is why I started this process. People assume because it's made by focal, it must be good, but it's not.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am happy you're doing the comparisons. Again, just thought I would put my 2 cents in as my ride is dead quiet where I needed it to be and so far my application is holding and deadening, which is the point correct? Bottom line for me was if I could play the XX @ 85+% and not have the annoying rattling/vibrating I had before, job done. I am so happy with my setup I drive slower so I can listen to more tunes. The K2's are easy to listen to though, its like having reference monitors in my ride
> 
> Good Luck and again, thanks for doing the comparisons!


----------



## Donanon

I'm just finishing up the treatment on my car and for the last bit I thought I'd buy a few different CLD products, give them a look over and a non scientific opinion. Two years ago I wasted $160 on FatMat and Dow butyl tape so if my small contribution helps even 1 person then this post has been worth it.

I had some CLD tiles from SDS and I bought several square feet of Kno Knoise and NVX CLD, I also have a bit of Dow Weathermate butyl tape from my original install two or so years ago but the Dow product is not in the same league as the dedicated car CLD products as it is peeling and curling off of the sheet metal...I tore out all the FatMat a while back.

Checking thickness of the butyl layer using the eyeball approach shows the Kno Knoise and NVX to be very close but I would give the nod to the NVX...I tried to take a digital vernier reading but things were too squishy in the 30+ degree heat we are having right now. Comparing the first two products to the SDS CLD shows clearly that the SDS is thicker and 'gooeyer'. Next I took three identical (as much as that is possible) steel dinner plates and struck them a few times with a ball pean hammer, then covered 25% of their area with the CLD products and repeated the hammer strikes. In my completely unscientific opinion the SDS product is the superior of the three. It's easier to apply and has superior damping property's I.M.O.

So for me after all the running around and if I were going to do it again I'd use SDS products as IMO they are superior products at a good price with an excellent level of Vendor knowledge.


D.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

I think they need to make CLD deadeners with a bullet proofing feature.
After 15 sheets of Kolossus in my 4 doors, they feel heavy and so solid, I love that the tin and clanky sound is gone. My car feels like a rolls Royce closing the doors.


----------



## rton20s

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I think they need to make CLD deadeners with a bullet proofing feature.


Maybe we can get TS2F to test that, too. I have access to a pretty wide selection of firearms.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Maybe we can get TS2F to test that, too. I have access to a pretty wide selection of firearms.


Oh I want in on this one too!

:rifle:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I think they need to make CLD deadeners with a bullet proofing feature.


Kevlar instead of foil?? Might need more then 25% coverage though!! LOL


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, I won't consider it bulletproof unless it stops a 12ga deer slug. Anything less is just bullet-resistant.


That said, Donovan I'm not surprised by your results. Regular knukonceptz knoknoise and nvx performed about the same, which was not as well as sds. Had you used kolossus in the test, I doubt you'd be able to tell a difference.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

Kevlar sounds good to me...

but seriously, does anyone see any negative of me using about 3.75 sqft of Kolossus in each door?

I had seen a video of that mark guy who make great vids CAF...and I see just small pieces here and there, in stress locations. I don't remember him covering the outside door skin, but I did with full coverage. Just cut the sheet to fit the entire door skin, and then cut the pieces to fit the inner skin from the inside and some outside.


----------



## Brian_smith06

we have a nice place for the testing. my dad donated this vehicle to the police station for them to have fun with.


----------



## seafish

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Kevlar sounds good to me...
> 
> but seriously, does anyone see any negative of me using about 3.75 sqft of Kolossus in each door?
> 
> [/IMG]


As long as your door does not fall off due to the extra weight you are fine…lol. 

That being said, with CLD, it is a case of dimishining returns after doing only 30% coverage. The 30% goes in the center of the "unreinforced" panels to reduce the panels resonance. ANyting more then that continues to reduce resonance some, but to a MUCH lesser degree, to the point where it is more effective to spend your money elsewhere in the deadening project or sound system.


----------



## Darth SQ

Brian_smith06 said:


> we have a nice place for the testing. my dad donated this vehicle to the police station for them to have fun with.


I applaud the choice of using a Corsica. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Nothingface5384

The car tinter..i ment owner of ezcool.. i ment car insulatuon is now claiming this whole thread test results arnt accurate
That testing in a box is different then testing in car with a db gun/meter...
prerty sure both test for dp damping ..like k told him doesnt matter if test is done in a car...in a box (car is big box) or on a gong..
non the less it makes for a fun day on Facebook lol


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Tell him to do a "real test" then and put his money where his mouth is. Or shut up. I'd love to see him control all the variables in a car to get useful results. Oh wait. He cant. That's why I didn't.

Lol, if you'd like you can forward that to him as my opinion of his criticisms.

Lol, gotta love facebook. 

Your dead right, doesn't matter whether its a box or car. The reduction in resonance will be difference on every piece of metal. This gives a good idea of the _comparative_ reductions between products.


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Tell him to do a "real test" then and put his money where his mouth is. Or shut up. I'd love to see him control all the variables in a car to get useful results. Oh wait. He cant. That's why I didn't.
> 
> Lol, if you'd like you can forward that to him as my opinion of his criticisms.
> 
> Lol, gotta love facebook.
> 
> Your dead right, doesn't matter whether its a box or car. The reduction in resonance will be difference on every piece of metal. This gives a good idea of the _comparative_ reductions between products.





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Tell him to do a "real test" then and put his money where his mouth is. Or shut up. I'd love to see him control all the variables in a car to get useful results. Oh wait. He cant. That's why I didn't.
> 
> Lol, if you'd like you can forward that to him as my opinion of his criticisms.
> 
> Lol, gotta love facebook.
> 
> Your dead right, doesn't matter whether its a box or car. The reduction in resonance will be difference on every piece of metal. This gives a good idea of the _comparative_ reductions between products.



I'm tempted to make another thread with the FB postings

He's making me want to buy some and do a Db test 
doing just the front DS floorpan should suffice?
I'LL def be doing a thermal test with IR heat gun with it, along side heat wave pro and lava shield via SS frying pan


----------



## Nothingface5384

Well ordered 8 sq feet of car insulation ill take what i need for my thermal test and send you what you need for your test
about to buy some Low E ez cool also and do same


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Awesome. I'm hoping on dedicating the next two weekends with my wife's help to finishing as much as I can. Then results will probably have to wait till the ot is over. It's voluntary, but as we're currently a one car family after getting screwed out of my neon, I have to work all the ot I can get to replace it.


----------



## Nothingface5384

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Awesome. I'm hoping on dedicating the next two weekends with my wife's help to finishing as much as I can. Then results will probably have to wait till the ot is over. It's voluntary, but as we're currently a one car family after getting screwed out of my neon, I have to work all the ot I can get to replace it.


Good deal
and that sucks, got to do what you gotta do
im currently working OT now..mandatory


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yeah, ours is mandatory, just optional as to who takes it. As long as there's 3 people doing it, we're covered. 

Had one person move out of state, one person rightfully fail to pass the probation period, one wrongfully out on workers comp, and a supervisor out for a knee surgery, and that's before you get to the scheduled vacations. And that's for a crew that when fully staffed only has 21 people.


----------



## Spud100

A 25% coverage method question.

Do you recommend using 3" square pieces in a 6" grid system?

I am assuming dividing the panel area into notional 6" squares and then placing the 3" square piece of MLV in the centre of the square area of sheet metal.

Gerry


----------



## Darth SQ

I am just a little more than pissed off right now but I will get over it. 
This is the best thread to rant about it so forgive me guys for bitching.
I decided to buy another box of Dynamat Xtreme (faired very well on TSTF's testing) to use in my Fit since the AlphaDamp cld I still have a bunch of is just too much of a pain to work with.
I just used up my last sheet of the bright silver DX and dipped into my recently arrived box of the new black version and I'll be damned if it's not significantly lighter. 
It's so much lighter than I could tell by holding it.
They've really cut back on the amount of butyl. 
Here's hoping it's up to the damn job as I really don't have a choice now with the vehicle gutted.

%#)(*#&)@%)*@%&)*)([email protected]#%@&)@#$%!!!!!!!!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Actually it's worse than I thought.
The aluminum backing is thinner as well resulting in tearing instead of stretching around and conforming to compound curves or depressions.
It's so thin that I can tear it to shape using just my hands.
Also I recommend not bringing it out into the sun.
The butyl heats up even faster now (less than 10 minutes) and does not want to release from the wax paper backing.
Keep it cool inside the house before cutting and peeling.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Weigel21

Kind of glad I missed the BB deal now.


----------



## Instaburn

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Actually it's worse than I thought.
> The aluminum backing is thinner as well resulting in tearing instead of stretching around and conforming to compound curves or depressions.
> It's so thin that I can tear it to shape using just my hands.
> Also I recommend not bringing it out into the sun.
> The butyl heats up even faster now (less than 10 minutes) and does not want to release from the wax paper backing.
> Keep it cool inside the house before cutting and peeling.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Yikes.


----------



## Alrojoca

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I am just a little more than pissed off right now but I will get over it.
> This is the best thread to rant about it so forgive me guys for bitching.
> I decided to buy another box of Dynamat Xtreme (faired very well on TSTF's testing) to use in my Fit since the AlphaDamp cld I still have a bunch of is just too much of a pain to work with.
> I just used up my last sheet of the bright silver DX and dipped into my recently arrived box of the new black version and I'll be damned if it's not significantly lighter.
> It's so much lighter than I could tell by holding it.
> They've really cut back on the amount of butyl.
> Here's hoping it's up to the damn job as I really don't have a choice now with the vehicle gutted.
> 
> %#)(*#&)@%)*@%&)*)([email protected]#%@&)@#$%!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR







Mmm, I got a door kit a few weeks ago, keep in mind the door kit comes with 1x36" sheets. (3sf), as of the trunk or bulk sheets being 18x32" (4sf)

Are you sure the lighter weight is not simply handling a smaller sheet? 





PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Actually it's worse than I thought.
> The aluminum backing is thinner as well resulting in tearing instead of stretching around and conforming to compound curves or depressions.
> It's so thin that I can tear it to shape using just my hands.
> Also I recommend not bringing it out into the sun.
> The butyl heats up even faster now (less than 10 minutes) and does not want to release from the wax paper backing.
> Keep it cool inside the house before cutting and peeling.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR






I know working in extreme heat is not the best environment to deal with this material, maybe that changes the perception of it, or we need to be more gentle with the roller or tool in extreme heat conditions.

I took some shots to confirm the weight, the aluminum seems equal or better than the silver one, based on weight it's either better or worse, meaning less aluminum and more butyl or more aluminum and less butyl 

One sheet at 680gms divided by 454gms equals 0.4992

4 sheets at 15 lbs and 15.6 ounces close to 16lbs divide that by 12 feet it comes to 0.5 lbs per square foot or close to 0.48 lbs what Toost got I assume it was with the paper covering the sheet that I doubt it will be more than 30 grams per sheet a 1 ounce total of extra paper back weight


----------



## Darth SQ

Alrojoca said:


> Mmm, I got a door kit a few weeks ago, keep in mind the door kit comes with 1x36" sheets. (3sf), as of the trunk or bulk sheets being 18x32" (4sf)
> 
> Are you sure the lighter weight is not simply handling a smaller sheet?
> 
> I know working in extreme heat is not the best environment to deal with this material, maybe that changes the perception of it.
> 
> I took some shots to confirm the weight, the aluminum seems equal or better than the silver one, based on weight it's either better or worse, meaning less aluminum and more butyl or more aluminum and less butyl
> 
> One sheet at 680gms divided by 454gms equals 0.4992
> 
> 4 sheets at 15 lbs and 15.6 ounces close to 16lbs divide that by 12 feet it comes to 0.5 lbs per square foot or close to 0.48 lbs what Toost got I assume it was with the paper covering the sheet that I doubt it will be more than 30 grams per sheet a 1 ounce total of extra paper back weight


Night an day difference.
The weight, the tearing when rolling it down, plus the fact that I can tear it by hand to the desired shape which I flat out can't do with the silver DX.
I just went back and applied the last of my silver DX after putting down three sheets of the black for comparison sake and it's a completely different product/formula/material thickness.....whatever.

I will however grant you this, the silver DX I have been using is from way back when Dynamat first introduced Dynamat Xtreme so it's very possible that it changed years before the black stuff came out.
This is likely why I am experiencing the difference between the two.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Alrojoca

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Night an day difference.
> The weight, the tearing when rolling it down, plus the fact that I can tear it by hand to the desired shape which I flat out can't do with the silver DX.
> I just went back and applied the last of my silver DX after putting down three sheets of the black for comparison sake and it's a completely different product/formula/material thickness.....whatever.
> 
> I will however grant you this, the silver DX I have been using is from way back when Dynamat first introduced Dynamat Xtreme so it's very possible that it changed way before the black stuff came out.
> This is likely why I am experiencing today for the first time.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Maybe yes cause I had a small piece of the silver and just did a tear test just now and I was able to tear both black and silver, the silver piece I had was about 4 years old, maybe DX already changed by then but I doubt the sample tested here was the first generation, no clue if the warm temp makes it easier to tear either.

In any case black looks better and the smaller sheets are easier to handle and the wrinkles are smoother and less pronounced than with the bulk pack sheets based on what I saw since I handled 2 bulk packs before.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Bret, if you have a pair a calipers, measure the thickness for me (total including butyl/aluminum/backing paper) as well as the backing paper thickness and aluminum thickness. 

Wonder is there was a mistake and their lighter product got printed with the dx logo.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Bret, if you have a pair a calipers, measure the thickness for me (total including butyl/aluminum/backing paper) as well as the backing paper thickness and aluminum thickness.
> 
> Wonder is there was a mistake and their lighter product got printed with the dx logo.


Interesting idea so that's exactly what I did.
Glad I didn't use up all the old stuff.
There's exactly 1/32" difference between the two.
Here's some pics to document.
Sorry for the camera angles; I am not a juggler. 
The old stuff lines up right on the 3/32" and the new stuff right on the 2/32".











Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

BTW......didn't I include some of my Dynamat Xtreme when I gave you the AlphaDamp and Luxury Liner Pro samples?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yup. I've gotten dynamat from a few sources, and all has been around the same. Makes me think I need to check some new stock.

I believe when I measured, it was always around 57mil thick after subtracting the paper backing thickness. And about .47 lbs per square foot.


Might have been 67mil thick, need to get on the computer and look.


----------



## Alrojoca

I checked thickness with my digital caliper.

I had a range of 0.6-0.7 mm differences between black and silver, silver measuring more, keeping in mind an old wrinkled piece could have expanded a bit, although many times I got both to measure 1.77 mm, 
1.70 mm being the low reading. YMMV very hard to measure since without being too tight, I got 1.83mm readings from both, with soft surfaces, digital calipers can be all over. 
Papers , I got 0.17 mm for black and 0.19 mm silver, that was easier. 

I am sure there will be lots of black DyXt around from recent purchases cause some bought enough for their next 3 cars , and why not test it again if in doubt.

Do we know anything about the Noico 80 mil?


----------



## Nothingface5384

Update on Kyle Bushner of Car Insulation 
He cancelled my order and left the reason as out of stock or cant fullfill order for another reason
we both know he's not out of stock, hes just scared of the tests
I knew this would happen
ill just leave it be i guess


----------



## SkizeR

Nothingface5384 said:


> Update on Kyle Bushner of Car Insulation
> He cancelled my order and left the reason as out of stock..
> we both know he's not out of stock, hes just scared of the tests
> I knew this would happen


how much is it? ill order some


----------



## Brian_smith06

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I applaud the choice of using a Corsica.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


They were junk brand new. I think this testing improved it.

They also used an older grand prix. for some reason I cant find the pics of it though. 

My dad is all about helping officers/firefighters out. They occasionally use the vehicles for firing practice, they train a lot of their drug dogs out there and he lets the fire department cut them up too. Watching the drug dogs out there is pretty cool.


----------



## Brian_smith06

Alrojoca said:


> I checked thickness with my digital caliper.
> 
> I had a range of 0.6-0.7 mm differences between black and silver, silver measuring more, keeping in mind an old wrinkled piece could have expanded a bit, although many times I got both to measure 1.77 mm,
> 1.70 mm being the low reading. YMMV very hard to measure since without being too tight, I got 1.83mm readings from both, with soft surfaces, digital calipers can be all over.
> Papers , I got 0.17 mm for black and 0.19 mm silver, that was easier.
> 
> I am sure there will be lots of black DyXt around from recent purchases cause some bought enough for their next 3 cars , and why not test it again if in doubt.
> 
> *Do we know anything about the Noico 80 mil*?


Im curious as well. One of the pics showing it installed says that it is stp. Isnt that supposed to be a decent brand? 
Auto Deadener 36 sqft 80 Mil Noico Sound Deadening Insulation Dynamat SMPL | eBay


----------



## country_hick

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The problem with personal input is few people have had ALL of these products on hand at once and out of them, *I'm the only one willing to show the data.*


As far as I can tell this is 100% true. 

I went nuts trying to find any objective testing OR before and after db results from any sound deadening approach or product. I could find almost nothing online. A few threads could be found that showed before and after db levels but very few. Most say WOW!!! What a difference!!! with nothing more to say or proof of any kind. When I did my sound reduction I showed db readings after it was done. I captured the db level at idle and above idle before but did not think to video record it.

This is the only actual testing comparing products I have ever seen expect for the original sds report that is still archived online from about 10 years ago.


----------



## country_hick

Nothingface5384 said:


> The car tinter..i ment owner of ezcool.. i ment car insulatuon is now claiming this whole thread test results arnt accurate
> That testing in a box is different then testing in car with a db gun/meter...
> prerty sure both test for dp damping ..like k told him doesnt matter if test is done in a car...in a box (car is big box) or on a gong..
> non the less it makes for a fun day on Facebook lol


Can you share the facebook page?


----------



## Bminus

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Interesting idea so that's exactly what I did.
> Glad I didn't use up all the old stuff.
> There's exactly 1/32" difference between the two.
> Here's some pics to document.
> Sorry for the camera angles; I am not a juggler.
> The old stuff lines up right on the 3/32" and the new stuff right on the 2/32".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I received my dynamat yesterday and noticed it was the new black dx as well. I googled it and found a youtube video of one the guys at dynamat talking about it. Here is the link to the video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OR9_EXMfBg


----------



## Second Skin

"I went nuts trying to find any objective testing OR before and after db results from any sound deadening approach or product. I could find almost nothing online. A few threads could be found that showed before and after db levels but very few. Most say WOW!!! What a difference!!! with nothing more to say or proof of any kind. When I did my sound reduction I showed db readings after it was done. I captured the db level at idle and above idle before but did not think to video record it."

Country Hick,

That is because Scientific Independent 3rd Party Testing in completely controlled environments, with full humidity/temperature/etc. variables being controlled costs thousands of dollars to have done....most major companies only do it when they first begin, every few years and most small companies could never afford to have the testing done. That being said, real world testing (like this great thread testing) and honest customer satisfaction reviews play a huge part in this industry......companies don't last long if their product doesn't hold up and give great results. In this day and age if you sell a crap product the wide world web will let everyone know just how bad it is ans same goes if your product is a high quality one. 

And of course Second Skin scientifically tests our products, our last independent test date was 8/1/2013 and can be seen here

Notes from the tester which used the same test that Detroit Automotive uses for their production line:

"Note on the chart, the bigger the loss factor  = more sound dampening. Typically, anything more than (n=0.10) is considered VERY GOOD. Anything more than (n=0.20) is considered OUTRAGEOUSLY GOOD."

And as you can see on the chart Damplifier Pro ranges from 0.224 @ 14 degrees F to 0.071 @ 140 degrees F with peeks of 0.437 @ 50 degrees F and 0.378 @ 70 degrees F 

Good Luck with everybody's projects and keep up all the great discussions on this thread......because the more knowledge a customer has the better of they will be with the decisions they make for their project, no matter what brand they use!!!


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for the contribution. Especially the insight on your own product testing experience. 

However...



Second Skin said:


> ...companies don't last long if their product doesn't hold up and give great results. In this day and age if you sell a crap product the wide world web will let everyone know just how bad it is ans same goes if your product is a high quality one.


FatMat? 

(And no, I do not expect you to bash another companies product. As you said, the consumer will be vocal enough.)


----------



## Darth SQ

Bminus said:


> I received my dynamat yesterday and noticed it was the new black dx as well. I googled it and found a youtube video of one the guys at dynamat talking about it. Here is the link to the video.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OR9_EXMfBg


Thanks for the video. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Second Skin said:


> "I went nuts trying to find any objective testing OR before and after db results from any sound deadening approach or product. I could find almost nothing online. A few threads could be found that showed before and after db levels but very few. Most say WOW!!! What a difference!!! with nothing more to say or proof of any kind. When I did my sound reduction I showed db readings after it was done. I captured the db level at idle and above idle before but did not think to video record it."
> 
> Country Hick,
> 
> That is because Scientific Independent 3rd Party Testing in completely controlled environments, with full humidity/temperature/etc. variables being controlled costs thousands of dollars to have done....most major companies only do it when they first begin, every few years and most small companies could never afford to have the testing done. That being said, real world testing (like this great thread testing) and honest customer satisfaction reviews play a huge part in this industry......companies don't last long if their product doesn't hold up and give great results. In this day and age if you sell a crap product the wide world web will let everyone know just how bad it is ans same goes if your product is a high quality one.
> 
> And of course Second Skin scientifically tests our products, our last independent test date was 8/1/2013 and can be seen here
> 
> Notes from the tester which used the same test that Detroit Automotive uses for their production line:
> 
> "Note on the chart, the bigger the loss factor  = more sound dampening. Typically, anything more than (n=0.10) is considered VERY GOOD. Anything more than (n=0.20) is considered OUTRAGEOUSLY GOOD."
> 
> And as you can see on the chart Damplifier Pro ranges from 0.224 @ 14 degrees F to 0.071 @ 140 degrees F with peeks of 0.437 @ 50 degrees F and 0.378 @ 70 degrees F
> 
> Good Luck with everybody's projects and keep up all the great discussions on this thread......because the more knowledge a customer has the better of they will be with the decisions they make for their project, no matter what brand they use!!!


Your results of efficiency varying by temperature changes are dead on with my recent experiences previously posted in this thread.
It's amazing just how much higher temperatures diminish dampening ability.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Your results of efficiency varying by temperature changes are dead on with my recent experiences previously posted in this thread.
> It's amazing just how much higher temperatures diminish dampening ability.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


well looks like im screwed then.. i have no AC in my car lol


----------



## Nothingface5384

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Thanks for the video. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


how long has this been out
my bro ordered and installed dynomt extreme in 2013 and always wondered why his was black instead of silver lol


----------



## Alrojoca

The packing boxes usually have a year written on the back, not sure if it correlates to the exact year the product was made but it could be close.
The box from the door kit I had that was black had 2013 written on it.


I guess that video simply confirms, it is the same thing, silver or black, and they just improved the way the butyl is placed on the aluminum layer, a bit smoother, I do not know if I buy it is more efficient or is better than the silver. A new test would have to confirm that. 

If I have to say anything about the black one, the black paint scratches, maybe not with the nail but it did with the caliper, while the silver will not scratch.


----------



## Elvis

TSTF: 

I stumbled across this thread, and after getting over my amazement at how long this project has gone on, I felt compelled to register, just to say, THANK YOU!

And I also wanted to pass along these refs., which I've been studying intensively:
_*Handbook of Noise Control Materials 
Vehicle Noise Solutions
Understanding Damping Techniques for Noise and Vibration Control
The Basics of Vibration Isolation Using Elastomeric Materials*_

Given that all the materials tested so far are familiar those interested in this subject (indeed, except for the roof patch material, all are developed & promoted mainly for automotive vibration dampening), if you have the opportunity to test a few other materials, I have some suggestions:

*Industrial-grade vibration dampeners that should be at the top of the heap* (considering their cost): 
EAR ISOLOSS NV
EAR ISOLOSS HD
EAR ISODAMP C-1000

EAR's urethane products purportedly offer much better dampening than butyl rubber, according to this text (from the spec sheets):
"E-A-R ISODAMP C-1000 Series materials are velocity sensitive. When they are compressed quickly, they seem stiff. When compressed slowly, they seem soft. This rate sensitivity is one of the keys to the materials’ excellent shock absorption and low rebound properties."
and this chart:








I wonder if the modified butyl rubbers in consumer-grade automotive materials make up most of the difference between the 0.4 rating above and ISODAMP's much higher rating? ...or maybe automotive deadening deals with different frequencies than EAR's chart?

*Cheaper, improvised dampeners that might be worth testing: *
3/8" or 1/2" thick EVA / PVC foam anti-fatigue "puzzle mat"
1/8" or 1/4" thick PVC (solid) sheet "puzzle mat"

3/8" thick Frost King "Vinyl Foam Weatherseal" Tape
7/16" thick Frost King "Rubber Foam Weatherseal" Tape
These two foams appear to be low-resilience type foams (similar to memory foam).

1" thick Memory Foam Mattress Topper

I understand that your circumstances may not be conducive to additional testing, but if that changes, please let me know, and I will make arrangements to get samples sent to you.


BTW: one other suggestion... Since it seems to me that one of the biggest problems is the lack of vehicle-specific information about where the worst noise sources are (and the frequency range of that noise), might it be possible to set up your rig in a vehicle?

Since doing this would require actually driving a vehicle over different surfaces, I guess that it would optimally require multiple microphones/SPL meters, to record the sound a multiple locations at the same time.

Anyway, keep up the good work. I look forward to your final report.


----------



## Darth SQ

Alrojoca said:


> The packing boxes usually have a year written on the back, not sure if it correlates to the exact year the product was made but it could be close.
> The box from the door kit I had that was black had 2013 written on it.
> 
> 
> I guess that video simply confirms, it is the same thing, silver or black, and they just improved the way the butyl is placed on the aluminum layer, a bit smoother, I do not know if I buy it is more efficient or is better than the silver. A new test would have to confirm that.
> 
> If I have to say anything about the black one, the black paint scratches, maybe not with the nail but it did with the caliper, while the silver will not scratch.


Since I am in a pinch I don't have a choice but to go with it.
I will still argue that the aluminum is thinner than my old silver stuff.
It tears way to easy not to be.
However with that being said, I am relieved that it's dampening properties are still sufficient to do the job.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Elvis said:


> BTW: one other suggestion... Since it seems to me that one of the biggest problems is the lack of vehicle-specific information about where the worst noise sources are (and the frequency range of that noise), might it be possible to set up your rig in a vehicle?
> 
> Since doing this would require actually driving a vehicle over different surfaces, I guess that it would optimally require multiple microphones/SPL meters, to record the sound a multiple locations at the same time.
> 
> Anyway, keep up the good work. I look forward to your final report.


It may be that I'm stating the obvious but it's clear to me that vehicle speed, tire choice and footprint, and road surface are the three biggest factors regarding the degree of road noise present inside the vehicle.

Concrete freeways are the worst.
Rubberized asphalt freeways are a gift from the sq gods. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elvis

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> It may be that I'm stating the obvious but it's clear to me that vehicle speed, tire choice and footprint, and road surface are the three biggest factors regarding the degree of road noise present inside the vehicle.
> 
> Concrete freeways are the worst.
> Rubberized asphalt freeways are a gift from the sq gods.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I'm sure that's true. 

But it seems to me that the biggest non-material-related problem is figuring out which locations present the largest noise infiltration problems in any given vehicle, and the frequency/amplitude of the noise at each location. 

Even if cost was no object, there is limited space available, so choices have to be made as to which material - and how much of it - to put where.

Without a "noise map" for a vehicle, or extensive measurements (which typically are not available), I guess the only thing to go by is rule of thumb.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Don't underestimate the effects of noise on aerodynamics either. General motors' wind tunnel gets more usage by oem brands trying to reduce noise than anything else now days. Just the addition of a smooth undertray from front to back goes a long way in reducing interior noise, as it reduces turbulence under the car that causes the floor pan to vibrate.

I'd even argue a smooth full undertray is more important for sound reduction than cld on the floor. Cld is a treatment, getting rid of what causes most of the continous vibration is prevention of the problem. Of course, combining both is the best, as the undertray nearly eliminates all noise from under car turbulence, and the cld reduces the amount of resonance from mechanical means.


----------



## DDfusion

My ford has felt like material in the wheel wells. The car is just about dead silent.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Wheel wells are another huge source of aerodynamic noise. Full wheel skirts would make a huge difference in interior noise, but the general public wouldn't touch a car with wheel skirts with a 10' pole.

It does work though, I know that from my own experimentation.



Elvis, I'll reply to your first post later on when I'm off work. I would love to do some in car experiments, and probably will at some point, but it will have to wait a while, as our laptop is effectively dead, and since I recently got burned by a family member, I have no car, only my wifes, so all funds are being channeled to getting myself a car while still paying for hers.


----------



## Elvis

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Don't underestimate the effects of noise on aerodynamics either...
> 
> I'd even argue a smooth full undertray is more important for sound reduction than cld on the floor.


[I'm guessing you meant "the effects of aerodynamics on noise"? ]

That is my educated guess as well. Turbulent airflow is noisy. 
I think it's mostly above 500Hz (almost certainly above 250Hz).
But without measurements, we have to guess.

Luckily, my project is a full-size van, and I have at least 2.5" of space under most of the floor pan (that's the height of the body crossmembers, and there are rubber mounts between them and the frame.)

That's why I intend to do as much as I can on the outside of the floorpan.

Also, a full body pan that thick can have significant thermal insulation and a radiant barrier on the outside, reducing heat gain from hot blacktop.

I have lots of room to add different materials to the inside surface of the wheelwells, too. According to what Douglas at CAE told me, two coats (0.050") of VB-1X perform about the same as VB-2HD, which is 50% thicker (0.075"). I prefer liquid-applied coatings to sheet materials anyway, because a liquid is a lot easier to get into every little nook & cranny.

But I don't think I entirely trust that water-based coatings like VB-1X or Second Skin Spectrum would have long-term durability on any underbody surface, so I'm looking at some of the softer durometer bedliners to use on the underside of wheelwells (though I understand that no bedliner is the optimal for dampening). Several of the DIY coatings like Al's are not nearly as hard as pro-applied linings like Line-X.


----------



## Elvis

DDfusion said:


> My ford has felt like material in the wheel wells. The car is just about dead silent.


Fiber materials do work very well. 

I was reminded of how well fiber materials during this research project when I remembered to look up the specs for Bonded Logic UltraTouch Denim Insulation. While it may not be a good idea to install something like this inside the outer door skin of any door with a roll-down window, it would work inside the door panels, behind the rear seats and dash, and of course, under the carpet. 

Obviously, Ford managed to use a variant of something like this, even in the wheelwells. UltraTouch performs so well (high NRC AND high STC, good thermal R-value as well) and is lightweight and relatively cheap compared to stuff like MLV and dampers, it's not surprising that fiber mats continue to be the primary acoustic insulation used by OEMs, even luxury brands. 

FWIW, Home Depot sells the UltraTouch # 60301-48752 48 in. x 75 in. foil-faced Denim Hot Water Heater Blanket (25 sq. ft.) for $28.


----------



## Second Skin

Elvis said:


> [I'm guessing you meant "the effects of aerodynamics on noise"? ]
> 
> But I don't think I entirely trust that water-based coatings like VB-1X or Second Skin Spectrum would have long-term durability on any underbody surface, so I'm looking at some of the softer durometer bedliners to use on the underside of wheelwells (though I understand that no bedliner is the optimal for dampening). Several of the DIY coatings like Al's are not nearly as hard as pro-applied linings like Line-X.


Just an FYI: Spectrum and Spectrum Sludge are a water based toxin free product that once cured will be just as strong, water/mud resistant, and long lasting as any bed liner on the market. Spectrum has been stuck to the bottom, interior, ceilings, and even on hoods for 10+ years without fail and is rated to handle 400 degrees. It will not come off once fully cured.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I can attest to spectrum staying on well, as I used a very thick layer of it under my last car, and the guy who owns it now and is gutting it for track duty, is having a hell of a time getting it off. All in all I used 4 gallons in the trunk and under the trunk/rear seats/rear wheel wells. Didn't really have any vibration issues with those panels.

It's funny as I'm testing all this, that my next personal car will have no deadening or system in it. My wife's will, but my next car will be a daily driven track rat.


----------



## Second Skin

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can attest to spectrum staying on well, as I used a very thick layer of it under my last car, and the guy who owns it now and is gutting it for track duty, is having a hell of a time getting it off. All in all I used 4 gallons in the trunk and under the trunk/rear seats/rear wheel wells. Didn't really have any vibration issues with those panels.
> 
> It's funny as I'm testing all this, that my next personal car will have no deadening or system in it. My wife's will, but my next car will be a daily driven track rat.


Awesome, thanks for the product shout out. We appreciate it.


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## Brian_smith06

I loved spectrum. Sprayed 2 gallons of it under my old car and it worked extremely well. I have a gallon of spectrum sludge in my front wheel wells of my new car as well as a layer of llp. It helped a lot. Also did a layer of thermal block over the exhaust


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## Elvis

Second Skin said:


> Just an FYI: Spectrum and Spectrum Sludge are a water based toxin free product that once cured will be just as strong, water/mud resistant, and long lasting as any bed liner on the market. Spectrum has been stuck to the bottom, interior, ceilings, and even on hoods for 10+ years without fail and is rated to handle 400 degrees. It will not come off once fully cured.


That's impressive. But there's a reason why all the most popular high performance bedliners (even the DIY versions) are 2-part (resin & catalyst) rather than water-borne monocomponent. As I deduce more about what coatings like Spectrum actually are, I will concede that they may have terrific adhesion, but I doubt that they have the abrasion or impact resistance of a bedliner (of course, acoustic damping coatings normally do not need these characteristics either).

Please don't be offended, but I'd be more impressed if there were actual specs and an MSDS for Spectrum. 

About the only full-blown MSDS I can find for a comparable product is this MSDS for QuietCoat.

With my background in construction materials, I can't help but notice the similarity to liquid-applied acrylic roof membrane coatings, like Gardner Metal-X (there are many others but I picked this one only because it is designed to adhere to metal), except QuietCoat has about twice as much Calcium Carbonate (Limestone) powder added, compared to Metal-X (available at Home Depot, etc).

Of course, I'm sure than an OEM like SecondSkin has been able to fine-tune the additive package for this application, so even if the starting point is similar, the end result may be different.


----------



## Elvis

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I can attest to spectrum staying on well, as I used a very thick layer of it under my last car, and the guy who owns it now and is gutting it for track duty, is having a hell of a time getting it off. All in all I used 4 gallons in the trunk and under the trunk/rear seats/rear wheel wells. Didn't really have any vibration issues with those panels.


OK, then it is probably worthwhile to add Spectrum to the list of dampeners that also should be tested. And while you're at it, maybe a couple different liquid roof membrane coatings, too, with different amounts of chalk powder added.  

FYI: Although "roof stuff" has tended to end up being "asphalt" (if picking the cheapest thing on the shelf at Home Depot), there is a vast array of non-asphaltic, non-butyl high performance options. Most of them are water-borne acrylic, but there are also 2-part EPDM coatings too.


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## LaserSVT

Nevermind, found my answer. Seems all that Quadro I bought isnt that great. Sure did quiet the living **** out of the truck and eliminated every rattle. Makes me wonder what some better stuff would have done.


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## Second Skin

"Please don't be offended, but I'd be more impressed if there were actual specs and an MSDS for Spectrum."

Elvis,

Every American company with legal selling product is required to have an MSDS on their product line, go through the proper channels and any company has to release the MSDS of their products in America (Most can be found online very easy these days). If any customer wants a company to show them their products MSDS they are required to. 

Why do you think some companies run off to foreign lands to produce their products, so they don't have to divulge what fillers and crap they are actually putting in their products. Second Skin has been selling high quality 100% American made products for 15+ years and I can assure you our products have full MSDS and testing data completed multiple times throughout out our existence. And I can also assure you that our water based Spectrum is safer and very effective compared to the two part epoxy products with their out gassing and vapors. Good Luck with your projects and have a great day.


----------



## Darth SQ

Second Skin said:


> "Please don't be offended, but I'd be more impressed if there were actual specs and an MSDS for Spectrum."
> 
> Elvis,
> 
> Every American company with legal selling product is required to have an MSDS on their product line, go through the proper channels and any company has to release the MSDS of their products in America (Most can be found online very easy these days). If any customer wants a company to show them their products MSDS they are required to.
> 
> Why do you think some companies run off to foreign lands to produce their products, so they don't have to divulge what fillers and crap they are actually putting in their products. Second Skin has been selling high quality 100% American made products for 15+ years and I can assure you our products have full MSDS and testing data completed multiple times throughout out our existence. And I can also assure you that our water based Spectrum is safer and very effective compared to the two part epoxy products with their out gassing and vapors. Good Luck with your projects and have a great day.


And your LLP (Luxury Liner Pro) is by far the best ccf/mlv product on the market.
My only complaint with it is the way you guys cut it into sheets; not always the straightest line. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Bminus

Random question.. Im in the early stages of my install, (will eventually make a build log for it) and im working on sound proofing the floor. I was thinking about doubling up on the mlv in the footwells or maybe over the entire floor since I have a little bit extra. For best results, should i just do CCF, MLV, MLV? OR should I make a sandwich and do CCF, MLV, CCF, MLV? 
Thanks in advance!!


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## Beckerson1

Bminus said:


> Random question.. Im in the early stages of my install, (will eventually make a build log for it) and im working on sound proofing the floor. I was thinking about doubling up on the mlv in the footwells or maybe over the entire floor since I have a little bit extra. For best results, should i just do CCF, MLV, MLV? OR should I make a sandwich and do CCF, MLV, CCF, MLV?
> Thanks in advance!!


Foot-wells and firewall (if you can get to it) would be the biggest area's I would hit. Other then that you really only need one layer of MLV. IMHO the firewall, doors, and roof (Glass is the worst but hey we can't do much about that atm) are the areas you should focus on. The floor itself IMO isn't all that bad.


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## Bminus

I can reach part of the firewall lol. I never realized how much sound the carpet blocks/absorbs. Took measurements this morning on the way to work. Im using a JL app on my phone. Before I took anything out I was getting 65-68db going 65mph. This morning with all seats out, except for the drivers, and the carpet out I was getting 72-75db at 65mph.


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## Brian_smith06

Bminus said:


> *I can reach part of the firewall lol*. I never realized how much sound the carpet blocks/absorbs. Took measurements this morning on the way to work. Im using a JL app on my phone. Before I took anything out I was getting 65-68db going 65mph. This morning with all seats out, except for the drivers, and the carpet out I was getting 72-75db at 65mph.


this is the only reason im ok with removing my dash for my heater core. Will be doing firewall while its out. At least I keep telling myself that:surprised:


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## SkizeR

Brian_smith06 said:


> this is the only reason im ok with removing my dash for my heater core. Will be doing firewall while its out. At least I keep telling myself that:surprised:


ya know, 2 years ago i though the same thing. a week later and my car didnt have heat or AC :laugh:


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## Brian_smith06

SkizeR said:


> ya know, 2 years ago i though the same thing. a week later and my car didnt have heat or AC :laugh:


sacrifices must be made in the name of sound. Im assuming probably more along the lines of performance in your car though?

my heat/ac will be staying though. Mine is daily driven and I sweat more than a you know what in church. Hell even with ac I still get slight swamp ass due to having leather. Considering adding cooled seats if I ever recover them.


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## SkizeR

Brian_smith06 said:


> sacrifices must be made in the name of sound. Im assuming probably more along the lines of performance in your car though?
> 
> my heat/ac will be staying though. Mine is daily driven and I sweat more than a you know what in church. Hell even with ac I still get slight swamp ass due to having leather. Considering adding cooled seats if I ever recover them.


nope. all in the name of audio. cooled seats? never heard of that.


----------



## Elvis

Beckerson1 said:


> Foot-wells and firewall (if you can get to it) would be the biggest area's I would hit. Other then that you really only need one layer of MLV. IMHO the firewall, doors, and roof... are the areas you should focus on.


I think you're probably right. 
I intend to do some test runs with several mics located very close to those areas to more exactly pin down the noisiest areas, and the frequency/amplitude of that noise at each location. 

Unfortunately it seems that the normal Windows OS sound driver doesn't support multiple simultaneous mic inputs. The alternative is to use a multi-microphone interface intended for studio recording (too expensive) or the 3rd-part "ASIO4ALL" driver which evidently can support multiple simultaneous mic inputs with the appropriate recording/mixing software (though I'm still not sure which software actually works).




Bminus said:


> For best results, should i just do CCF, MLV, MLV? OR should I make a sandwich and do CCF, MLV, CCF, MLV?


I wondered the same thing (Use double alternating foam/MLV layers or one foam/MLV layer that's twice as thick). So I asked Doug at CAE.

While I was waiting for his reply, I found the answer in these two publications:
I ran across a couple of technical papers you might find interesting (if you haven't already read them).
1. *Handbook of Noise Control Materials*
2. *Vehicle Noise Demands Tough Solutions*

These excerpts are particularly pertinent::

1. (@ page 3): _"For the design of composites, mass layers are typically at weights of 1 and 2 lb/ft2 and the thickness of decoupling layers varies from ¼" to 3". The effective frequency range of these materials varies with the square root of the weight of the mass layer times the thickness of the decoupler (See Fig. 2B).The 1 lb/ft2 material on ¼" decoupler is effective only above 500 Hz, and is generally not satisfactory for noise reduction in boats, except for special applications.The 2 lb/ft2 material on ¼" decoupler moves the effectiveness range down to 350 Hz (this is a construction generally recommended when there is minimum space available for the composite treatment). For a high level of effectiveness the decoupler layer should be 1" or greater and for the highest effectiveness this should be combined with 2 lb/ft2 mass layer, as demonstrated in Fig. 2B. *Greater thicknesses of the decoupler increase the bass frequency effectiveness, while heavier mass layers increase effectiveness throughout the entire frequency range.*"_

Here's a chart:









2. (@ page 5): _"The double-wall barrier construction acts like a spring-mass system, where the performance of the spring is controlled by its stiffness and thickness. The lower the stiffness, the lower the frequency that sets the double-wall construction into resonance, the point at which it fails to impede sound waves. Similarly, the thicker the spring—in other words, the more deflection it exhibits—the lower the double-wall resonance frequency. In a double-wall barrier system, the decoupling foam acts as the spring. So, *the thicker the decoupler and the lower the stiffness, the lower the double-wall resonance frequency.*"_

Both these advise the same thing: *for best performance in the hard-to-control lower frequency range, use the most massive (thickest) possible MLV along with the thickest and softest possible decoupler*: open-cell foam, which also happens to be a better sound absorber than CCF. (Please refer to the difference between blocking the transmission of sound and absorbing sound.) 

*High Resilience foam, which has a very fast recovery and bounces back to its original shape faster after compression, is the best foam "spring."* *The optimal decoupler is a lot less firm (<1psi @ 25% compression) than the closed cell foams (>5psi @ 25% compression) commonly used in aftermarket automotive composite decoupler/barriers.* Also keep in mind that MLV is a "limp mass barrier" and its performance is partly related to how limp it is. Being bonded to a layer of foam makes it less limp that MLV by itself. Which brings up the next point: anywhere is is possible to hang the MLV over an open space (such as over the open space of a door), use MLV *without* any foam behind it, except where it is mounted. That said, any added foam also has the secondary benefit of providing some sound absorption, but a thin layer of CCF doesn't absorb much.

Based on what I've seen on here so far, I expect that some will warn you against using open cell foam. While I understand their concern, you might want to consider that auto manufacturers do not totally avoid use of open cell foam (e.g.: seats). Also, you would have the opportunity to seal all the surfaces when you install it.

Doug at CAE and Don at SDS seemed to think my suggestion of using a much thicker decoupler than the normal CCF was ridculously impractical. 
While that may be true under the carpet, the fact is there *should* be that much room behind the dash between the cabin and the firewall and/or front wheelwhells.

Additional references linked in this post.

Also, there is a tremendous amount of related technical info here.

One other thing I can would like to point out: Most "ordinary" passenger cars and trucks have a lot of cavities. The luxury counterparts of those cars often have similar cavities filled with something that is generically called "body foam" (e.g.: 3M Flexible Foam and 3M Rigid Pillar Foam). While these two products are intended for repair (and are ridiculously expensive), there are some more affordable alternatives, FlexFoam-iT! Castable Flexible Urethane Foam (but not the mono-component spray foam like "Great Stuff").


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## Brian_smith06

SkizeR said:


> nope. all in the name of audio. cooled seats? never heard of that.


Aftermarket Heating & Cooling Seat Kits From Katzkin | ceoutlook.com


----------



## Bminus

Wow thanks Elvis!! That was very informative. Sounds like a regular layer of CCF/MLV on the floor will work just fine, but I need to double or even triple my ccf and MLV in the footwells and firewall. Based on what you posted, it looks like just doing CCF CCF, MLV MLV would work better than alternating them. Am I correct in assuming this?


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## Brian_smith06

the plans I got off of sound deadener showdown site says an additional layer of ccf over the footwell is a good idea.


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## Elvis

Bminus said:


> Wow thanks Elvis!! That was very informative. Sounds like a regular layer of CCF/MLV on the floor will work just fine, but I need to double or even triple my ccf and MLV in the footwells and firewall. Based on what you posted, it looks like just doing CCF CCF, MLV MLV would work better than alternating them. Am I correct in assuming this?


According to the references I cited, thicker materials provide better performance than multiple thinner layers of the same materials, especially at lower frequencies. 
This is especially true of the foam layer, which is acting as a spring. One longer spring is preferable to two shorter springs.

As I mentioned, the commonly used neoprene CCF decoupler is much stiffer than optimal. 

From page 5 of *Vehicle Noise Demands Tough Solutions*:
_"Air makes the best decoupler, because it lacks stiffness that transmits vibration energy. Unfortunately, air also lacks any matter with which to support a barrier. Foam, however, with its air-filled cells, provides a good second choice."_

*You want to use the thickest, softest foam available, along with the heaviest MLV. 
The two layers do not have to be glued or bonded together.*

Without giving any consideration to other factors like water absorption or fire resistance, the optimal foam decoupler is something like this, but with higher resiliency (>50%) if possible. 
foamonline sells that foam and others, but doesn't have a good link to refer specifically to it.

FYI: *The most common measure of stiffness for foam: "25% ILD (LB)"* is the pounds required to compress a 50 square-inch area of the foam by 25% of its thickness. In effect, it is *P*ounds per *S*quare *I*nch x 50. A 25% ILD value of 50 is equal to 1 PSI. Most Neoprene CCF is 5 to 7 PSI, which is many times higher than optimal.

It probably won't be long before the guy from second skin chimes in to tell you how wrong I am, and how their products are the best by far. That's the way practically every forum like this works, and that's also why I usually don't bother posting in them. As I mentioned before, I only registered on this site to offer my appreciation for OP TS2F's diligent effort over such a long period of time. 

My advice to you is read the technical papers I provided and approach the problem as an engineer would. 
Do not be too swayed by testimonials if they are not backed up by product specification & test data.


----------



## Bminus

Elvis said:


> According to the references I cited, thicker materials provide better performance than multiple thinner layers of the same materials, especially at lower frequencies.
> 
> You want to use the thickest, softest foam available, along with the heaviest MLV. The two layers do not have to be glued or bonded together.


GOT IT! Thanks for the help!!! 
Another question I guess I might as well ask, How important is it to treat the pillars? Do they need a full treatment of CLD, CCF, and MLV or maybe just some CCF or insulation to fill in the air gaps?


----------



## Elvis

Bminus said:


> GOT IT! Thanks for the help!!!
> Another question I guess I might as well ask, How important is it to treat the pillars? Do they need a full treatment of CLD, CCF, and MLV or maybe just some CCF or insulation to fill in the air gaps?


MLV should cover any large open spaces. 

I intend to fill all cavities with an appropriate foam. Then again, I have other design criteria that have to be met, including thermal insulation.

It's difficult to fill most pillar cavities with anything but expanding foam, although you could probably stuff flexible absorber foam into some of them. 
When filling body cavities with pour foam, it is important to take steps to avoid trapping water (even in the form of moisture from the air) in the cavity. 
I think this is what causes most of the sheet metal corrosion problems that some people have observed when they try to use "Great Stuff" spray foam.

Before buying any products, much less getting started, you might want to take the time to completely read references like these, Noise Blockers vs Noise Absorbers, specifically: 

_"*How to Tell What a Product Is Designed for*
When you're looking at a potential soundproofing product, how can you tell whether it is designed for sound blocking or for acoustical room treatment? It's not always obvious from the way the material is advertised. Both types of material may be billed as noise reduction products or sound treatment products, or even as soundproofing products. Here are three ways to tell:
*Look at the test data.*
*If the product specifications include a sound transmission class (STC) number, a transmission loss (TL) curve, or a weighted sound reduction index value, the product was tested as a sound blocking material.*
I*f the specs include a noise reduction coefficient (NRC) or a weighted sound absorption coefficient, the product was tested as a sound absorbing material.*
*If no test data is available for the product, that means any advertising claims made for the effectiveness of the product are unsupported.*"_

Also, when comparing materials specs, *do a cost-benefit analysis. *
You might find this stuff to be useful for some of your applications, in areas where you have enough space. There's a reason why OEMs still use fibrous materials for most acoustic insulation, and part of the answer is on the last page of this PDF which shows excellent STC & NRC (although they don't provide specs for the thinner materials) from the same material.

I think this will have to be my last post on this, because I believe am taking the OP's thread too far off his topic (CLD testing).


----------



## Bminus

Thanks Elvis for all of your input. You Definitely helped clear things up for me. And sorry TS2F for taking things off topic..


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

No trouble at all guys. I started this thread and testing process so I could get my wife's car (which is also our road trip car) as quiet as possible, so any discussion that adds to that is on topic as far as I'm concerned. There will be a dedicated thread for the final results, hopefully not long after we get fully staffed at work.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

seafish said:


> As long as your door does not fall off due to the extra weight you are fine…lol.
> 
> That being said, with CLD, *it is a case of dimishining returns after doing only 30% coverage. * The 30% goes in the center of the "unreinforced" panels to reduce the panels resonance. ANyting more then that continues to reduce resonance some, but to a MUCH lesser degree, to the point where it is more effective to spend your money elsewhere in the deadening project or sound system.


Thanks for the response. I purchased the pack, so I figure i might as well use it. 

I wonder how many sqft "door kits" include in general for deadening packages?


----------



## Darth SQ

Elvis said:


> According to the references I cited, thicker materials provide better performance than multiple thinner layers of the same materials, especially at lower frequencies.
> This is especially true of the foam layer, which is acting as a spring. One longer spring is preferable to two shorter springs.
> 
> As I mentioned, the commonly used neoprene CCF decoupler is much stiffer than optimal.
> 
> From page 5 of *Vehicle Noise Demands Tough Solutions*:
> _"Air makes the best decoupler, because it lacks stiffness that transmits vibration energy. Unfortunately, air also lacks any matter with which to support a barrier. Foam, however, with its air-filled cells, provides a good second choice."_
> 
> *You want to use the thickest, softest foam available, along with the heaviest MLV.
> The two layers do not have to be glued or bonded together.*
> 
> Without giving any consideration to other factors like water absorption or fire resistance, the optimal foam decoupler is something like this, but with higher resiliency (>50%) if possible.
> foamonline sells that foam and others, but doesn't have a good link to refer specifically to it.
> 
> FYI: *The most common measure of stiffness for foam: "25% ILD (LB)"* is the pounds required to compress a 50 square-inch area of the foam by 25% of its thickness. In effect, it is *P*ounds per *S*quare *I*nch x 50. A 25% ILD value of 50 is equal to 1 PSI. Most Neoprene CCF is 5 to 7 PSI, which is many times higher than optimal.
> 
> It probably won't be long before the guy from second skin chimes in to tell you how wrong I am, and how their products are the best by far. That's the way practically every forum like this works, and that's also why I usually don't bother posting in them. As I mentioned before, I only registered on this site to offer my appreciation for OP TS2F's diligent effort over such a long period of time.
> 
> My advice to you is read the technical papers I provided and approach the problem as an engineer would.
> Do not be too swayed by testimonials if they are not backed up by product specification & test data.


Before you dismiss the claims made by Second Skin let me say this.
I used their product in my Suburban (see pics posted in this thread many pages back).
Every inch inside the vehicle has been treated with cld, ccf, mlv (the last to as a bonded together product called Luxury Liner Pro).
The only untreated area is the glass.
When sitting inside my vehicle words like "tomb" "sound room" "anechoic" have been used to describe the experience.
If you want it dead quiet, you can't go wrong with their product line. 
The stuff is really that good. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elvis

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Before you dismiss the claims made by Second Skin let me say this.... you can't go wrong with their product line...


I'm not disputing that their products perform well for vehicle noise reduction. Other products also perform well. Some others do not.

But I sure do dispute this:


Second Skin said:


> Just an FYI: Spectrum and Spectrum Sludge are a water based toxin free product that once cured will be just as strong, water/mud resistant, and long lasting as any bed liner on the market.


 because that last part isn't likely true, given that 2-component bedliners are nearly an order of magnitude (thousands of psi instead of hundreds) tougher/stronger than most most water-borne acrylic exterior coatings for which specs are available. 
Is Spectrum strong enough to hold up when used as an undercoating (not as a bedliner)? It may well be, but absent any specs, I have no way to know how it stacks up to the alternatives. 

This statement about _"just as strong as any bed liner"_ is what encited what may appear to be skepticism on my part.




PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ...The stuff is really that good.


...which is all the more reason to have claims backed up by specs and performance test data. Practically every mainstream manufacturer has that for things as lowly as caulk. Not having that is like several people who are all acquainted with a driver telling someone who wasn't at the drag race who won and by how much, but nobody seems to know by exactly how much he won, or what the ET or MPH was. 

If your decisions are based mainly on testimonials & recommendations, so be it. 
As much as possible, I base mine on test data and engineering analysis. A long history of failure analysis proves this is the best way to solve technical problems.

This has really gone on farther than it should have (no surprise there in an online forum) but I think that there's no point in beating this dead horse any more.


----------



## Darth SQ

Elvis said:


> I'm not disputing that their products perform well for vehicle noise reduction. Other products also perform well. Some others do not.
> 
> But I sure do dispute this:
> because that last part isn't likely true, given that 2-component bedliners are nearly an order of magnitude (thousands instead of hundreds) tougher/stronger than most most water-borne acrylic coatings. Is Spectrum strong enough to hold up when used as an undercoating (not as a bedliner)" It may well be, but absent any specs, I have no way to know how it stacks up to the alternatives.
> 
> This statement about _"just as strong as any bed liner"_ is what encited what may appear to be skepticism on my part.
> 
> 
> ...which is all the more reason to have claims backed up by specs and performance test data. Practically every mainstream manufacturer has that for things as lowly as caulk. Not having that is like several people who are all acquainted with a driver telling someone who wasn't at the drag race who won and by how much, but nobody seems to know by exactly how much he won, or what the ET or MPH was.
> 
> If your decisions are based mainly on testimonials & recommendations, so be it.
> As much as possible, I base mine on test data and engineering analysis. A long history of failure analysis proves this is the best way to solve technical problems.
> 
> This has really gone on farther than it should have (no surprise there in an online forum) but I think that there's no point in beating this dead horse any more.


The very fact that we all are participating in this thread tells us that we also are very interested in test data and analysis so you will get no argument from me on this.
I knew from the beginning this thread was going to raise some eyebrows and even get a few manufacturers a little butthurt when the results came out.
I believe I even warned the OP to expect this and not give up on testing.

Now I should point out that I have not used and have no plans on using Spectrum Sludge in my two ongoing builds so I cannot speak for any of the claims made regarding it. 
Others will have to speak on that.
All I was trying to drive home with you is not to dismiss SS's product line so quickly which is what I thought you were doing and gave you my personal testimony on why.
I hope that helps.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elvis

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ...All I was trying to drive home with you is not to dismiss SS's product line so quickly...


Once again, as I posted on 7/8/2015:


Elvis said:


> This has really gone on farther than it should have (no surprise there in an online forum) but I think that there's no point in beating this dead horse any more.


...and yet once again I am sucked in...


First of all, please understand that I do not have any axe to grind regarding Second Skin. I neither support them nor would I avoid their products. In fact, since I intend to use a liquid applied dampener, their Spectrum coating is on my candidate list. But CascadeAudioEngineering has a composite loss chart of their comparable liquid-applied dampener, VB-1X, something Second Skin does not have. For all I know, both VB-1X and Spectrum may be the same product from some of the same factories, or maybe there are differences in the performance. Without specs & test results, there's no way to know, really.

And even if companies like Second Skin sold the exact same products as all the others, there is a convenience/practicality from being able to buy a quantity suitable for a single vehicle, rather than having to buy entire rolls. It's like buying carpet from a carpet store, instead of direct from the carpet mill. 

Second Skin's products are often recommended by end users, and evidently those who know the people behind Second Skin appreciate that they intend for their products to be among the best on the market, which is expressed here. 

But other than that "trust us" letter, here is an example of the specifics that Second Skin tells customers about their products:









I understand that testing costs money that from a certain point of view could be considered to be a waste 
(since it does not directly improve the products or sell more of them) and any small business would want to minimize that. 

Also, not having full specs like these:
















...as provided on these PDFs:
*Tuff-Mass Barrier*
*Vinyl Foam Barrier Composite*
*Acoustical Absorption Foam*
*QuietPro Water Resistant Sound & Vibration Absorbing Panel*
*Polyimide Acoustic Foam*
...does (in this respect) make it reasonable to lump Second Skin 's (or any brand name company's) products in with the more generic off-brand products, the quality of which is supposedly inferior.

Of course, *just because a company publishes specs or the results of tests* (that may have been conducted years ago) *doesn't guarantee that the products sold today actually meet those specs. *
For example, CascadeAudioEngineering publishes these specs for VB-4, which is MLV bonded to 1/4" thick CCF.








Note that they state a _"*Thermal Insulation Factor.....R4*"_
but *this cannot be true because closed cell foam of this type is only about R-4 PER INCH thickness.*
There is NO insulating foam product on the market that delivers R-4 in only 1/4" thick, period.
In comparison the very best commonly available insulating foam (rigid polyiso Thermax, Tuff-R, etc.) is no more than R-6.5 per inch (aged) or R-7.0 per inch (initial).

CAE's spec sheet states that:
_"VB-4 is constructed of a thin, decoupling layer of foam bonded to a dense, 0.100" thick mineral loaded vinyl barrier"_
and that the total thickness is 0.250 inches. If that's true, that means the foam must be only 0.150 inches thick, which means it has an R-value of about 0.6 (maybe less). The solid plastc (MLV) layer itself is probably is about R-1 per inch (based on the ratings of most other solid plastics), so if the MLV is 0.100 inches thick, that adds another R-0.1, for a total of about R-0.7, which is far less than the R-4 they claim. 

And don't even get me started on how some other companies routinely make wildly exaggerated claims about the R-value (which is resistance to conductive heat transfer) of very thin foam materials, based on the radiant heat rejection capability of a radiant barrier layer!

But other than catching obvious errors like that, given that it takes a specialized testing facility to prove otherwise, potential customers who want more than testimonials have to rely on tests of relative performance, like the OP is conducting. *That's why I commend OP TS2F's efforts.*


----------



## davekro

I am new to this thread today. I read the first 3 pages from 2 years ago (4/1/13), then this last page. Is there a link or post # for results of the testing? Did the testing ever happen? I applaud the OP and CLD donors.


----------



## Bminus

Its still on going but if you read through the first 20 pages or so youll see some of the results.. OP says he will make a new thread with the completed results once testing has concluded.


----------



## davekro

Bminus said:


> Its still on going but if you read through the first 20 pages or so youll see some of the results.. OP says he will make a new thread with the completed results once testing has concluded.


First 20 pages??  holy cow. It took me a good bit of time to read thru the first three and last one pages! 
Does this forum not have the ability to allow the OP to add updates and current info to the first post, or at least add links or post #'s where info can be found to the first post? Is there a spread sheet with the data on what has been tested to date?

I'll post my bottom line question dilema here, either for answers or pointers/ links to info. Search has not helped me (here or Google).

Can 50Hz - 100Hz sound waves (drone) from mufflers at the back of the car be kept from getting to my ears inside the car by with MLV, etc.?:
1) applying ccf/MLV to just the trunk area
2) ccf/MLV to rest of car floor areas AND the trunk area
3) vibration is not really my issue (no subwoofer), but I am not opposed to including some CLD tiles over 25% of the trunk areas as well as the floor areas if it will benefit my low freq. drone in the cab. My aftermarket mufflers are not that loud at all, but a low frequency sound wave has been created that is annoying as H3ll to the ears. This is a 2015 Mustang *V6* convertible. I even went to larger Magnaflow mufflers which made the overall exhaust quieter, but too much drone still remains.


----------



## Elvis

davekro said:


> Can 50Hz - 100Hz sound waves (drone) from mufflers at the back of the car be kept from getting to my ears inside the car by with MLV, etc.?:
> 1) applying ccf/MLV to just the trunk area
> 2) ccf/MLV to rest of car floor areas AND the trunk area
> 3) vibration is not really my issue (no subwoofer), but I am not opposed to including some CLD tiles over 25% of the trunk areas as well as the floor areas if it will benefit my low freq. drone in the cab.


Your "Job One" should be figuring out specifically what parts of the car the objectionable sounds (amplitude and frequency) are coming from.

I plan on using at least four or six mics simultaneously. But if you're willing to make multiple passes over the exact same stretch of road, you could get by with fewer mics (but that will never be as consistent either). If you have a Mac laptop, it will be easier, since MacOS supports multiple simultaneous mic inputs. AFAIK, Windows still requires a work-around.

Or you can just do what almost everybody else does: "Play it by ear" and just make the best guesses possible.


----------



## davekro

Elvis said:


> Your "Job One" should be figuring out specifically what parts of the car the objectionable sounds (amplitude and frequency) are coming from.
> 
> I plan on using at least four or six mics simultaneously. But if you're willing to make multiple passes over the exact same stretch of road, you could get by with fewer mics (but that will never be as consistent either). If you have a Mac laptop, it will be easier, since MacOS supports multiple simultaneous mic inputs. AFAIK, Windows still requires a work-around.
> 
> Or you can just do what almost everybody else does: "Play it by ear" and just make the best guesses possible.


Elvis,
Thanks for your input.
I don't have the ability for multiple mic testing. At idle (not at the problemed rpm range under load), I have listened with a stethescope to the midsection stock resonator (under cabin) and the mufflers at the the very back of the car. The lowest res. sound comes the rear 4" of the 21" long mid resonator. The muffler bodies have not quite as low a resonance sound, but low. The exh. tubing all sounds high pitched. Driving in the car at the worst rpm (1750), the sound 'appears' to come from the back of the car. Feeling for vibration with my fingers pressed hard against the carpeted drive line tunnel, I can 'feel' vibration, but more at rpm's above my ending drone range of about 1900, so it may not be related to drone.

Researching MLV and people describing covering for say a well pump or other noisy device, that after covering just three sides of an inclosure, the sound was not reduced much at all, until they completely enclosed the 4th side. This application was likely higher frequencies than I am trying to block. But it make me wonder if even if I was able to cover the entire bottom of the car, does the sound just 'come around' to the cabin even assuming the car has nothing beside it to reflect the sound back? This is the bottom line question for me in this application of sound blocking.


----------



## seafish

Was the only STP-Atalntic product tested STP Bomb, or was the Black Magic tested as well??


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Black magic wasn't out. Bomb, Gold, Silver, and Vizomat were tested.


----------



## davekro

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Black magic wasn't out. Bomb, Gold, Silver, and Vizomat were tested.


Have you published any results yet? Do you have a link to your spread sheet. Or a page # and post number where it can be found?
Thanks


----------



## seafish

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Black magic wasn't out. Bomb, Gold, Silver, and Vizomat were tested.


Thanks…I wonder how it compares?? I can get a good deal on some right now from a friend.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

davekro said:


> Have you published any results yet? Do you have a link to your spread sheet. Or a page # and post number where it can be found?
> Thanks



All the post results start around page 13 iirc. It could be off depending on how you set up your account to view pages mines set to default.


----------



## Bminus

davekro said:


> Elvis,
> Thanks for your input.
> I don't have the ability for multiple mic testing. At idle (not at the problemed rpm range under load), I have listened with a stethescope to the midsection stock resonator (under cabin) and the mufflers at the the very back of the car. The lowest res. sound comes the rear 4" of the 21" long mid resonator. The muffler bodies have not quite as low a resonance sound, but low. The exh. tubing all sounds high pitched. Driving in the car at the worst rpm (1750), the sound 'appears' to come from the back of the car. Feeling for vibration with my fingers pressed hard against the carpeted drive line tunnel, I can 'feel' vibration, but more at rpm's above my ending drone range of about 1900, so it may not be related to drone.
> 
> Researching MLV and people describing covering for say a well pump or other noisy device, that after covering just three sides of an inclosure, the sound was not reduced much at all, until they completely enclosed the 4th side. This application was likely higher frequencies than I am trying to block. But it make me wonder if even if I was able to cover the entire bottom of the car, does the sound just 'come around' to the cabin even assuming the car has nothing beside it to reflect the sound back? This is the bottom line question for me in this application of sound blocking.


Have you been to sounddeadenershowdown.com ??? 
It has a lot of very helpful information about CLD, CCF, MLV and insulation and how to apply them.


----------



## Darth SQ

Bminus said:


> I can reach part of the firewall lol. I never realized how much sound the carpet blocks/absorbs. Took measurements this morning on the way to work. Im using a JL app on my phone. Before I took anything out I was getting 65-68db going 65mph. This morning with all seats out, except for the drivers, and the carpet out I was getting 72-75db at 65mph.


All so true not to mention the amount of heat it also blocks.
Without all the trim panels and carpeting, it's like sitting inside a convection oven for which the ac can barely keep up.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## seafish

Don't know if it is accurate or not, but for those wondering, I found an actual email online from STP-Atlantic to a potential distributor that claims STP Black Magic has the same specs as the STP Gold. 

I HOPE so, because I just managed to buy 28 sq ft of Black Magic for $50 shipped to me!!! Can't beat $1.80/sq ft for quality CLD!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've heard that before as well. No actual verification, but from people who use it a lot.


----------



## davekro

Bminus said:


> Have you been to sounddeadenershowdown.com ???
> It has a lot of very helpful information about CLD, CCF, MLV and insulation and how to apply them.


Yes, I read thru that sight. Tks


----------



## DaleDoback

What would be a good recommendation to deaden my new pickup truck? Last time I did a deadening project was in 2009 and I used Dynamat Xtreme. Is there a better overall product?


----------



## DATCAT

seafish said:


> Don't know if it is accurate or not, but for those wondering, I found an actual email online from STP-Atlantic to a potential distributor that claims STP Black Magic has the same specs as the STP Gold.
> 
> I HOPE so, because I just managed to buy 28 sq ft of Black Magic for $50 shipped to me!!! Can't beat $1.80/sq ft for quality CLD!!!


After seeing the STP Bomb ratings on this thread and not being able to order it I figured their 80mil black foil product would be comparable. I was wrong. It is asphalt product and I live in Florida. The dampening is ok but it melts and if it is touched while it is hot it makes a big mess. Most of it is still in the box in the shop and I ordered the old reliable Second Skin to finish the build with.


----------



## Bminus

DaleDoback said:


> What would be a good recommendation to deaden my new pickup truck? Last time I did a deadening project was in 2009 and I used Dynamat Xtreme. Is there a better overall product?


The top 2 after testing were Sounddeadenershowdown's CLD tiles followed by KnuKonceptz Kolossus 100mil with Kolossus being the overall best bang for your buck.


----------



## johnbooth3

I ordered the KnuKonceptz Kolossus yesterday based on this thread and some other digging. I got it for about $3.63 per sq ft shipped. The SDS was $5.40 per sq ft before shipping. My second choice was Dynamat Extreme at about $4.04 per sq ft. My main concern is the Kolossus weight but if I do the 25% rule, I should be ok. The Dynamat is half the weight. I will update my comments when it arrives. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bminus

johnbooth3 said:


> I ordered the KnuKonceptz Kolossus yesterday based on this thread and some other digging. I got it for about $3.63 per sq ft shipped. The SDS was $5.40 per sq ft before shipping. My second choice was Dynamat Extreme at about $4.04 per sq ft. My main concern is the Kolossus weight but if I do the 25% rule, I should be ok. The Dynamat is half the weight. I will update my comments when it arrives.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Did you miss the sale on dynamat xtreme?
Best Buy had 12sqft for $20 like 2 weeks ago. I used the Knu Kolossus and Dynamat xtreme. Knu Kolossus was definitely heavier, thicker, and definitely seemed to dampen better. The Dynamat was lighter, thinner, and EXTREMELY easy to work with, but it seemed like it took a bit more to dampen to the same degree as the kolossus.


----------



## Alrojoca

The difference is like 2db or less in dampening, to me it's not worth for over twice the weight. For sound competition? Yes every DB helps , for the average guy, saving weight, caring about gas mileage etc, probably not. 

Knu resonance control, may be similar in db's to Dynamat still much heavier and measures a big separation gap above the metal line, while Dynamat is smooth to the top like kolossos and SDS. SDS being 1+ Db better than the kolossos. 

Most of The STP's show a gap line below the metal, from the start, I assume that is better even compared to SDS, Kol and Dynamat, STP Still over 0.8 lbs/sft and only silver and gold are butyl based.

I would choose SS damp pro, over the knu res control for weight and performance unless I'm missing something, it has a smaller gap than the Knu Res control above the metal. 0.55lbs over 0.71 lbs


----------



## johnbooth3

Bminus said:


> Did you miss the sale on dynamat xtreme?
> Best Buy had 12sqft for $20 like 2 weeks ago. I used the Knu Kolossus and Dynamat xtreme. Knu Kolossus was definitely heavier, thicker, and definitely seemed to dampen better. The Dynamat was lighter, thinner, and EXTREMELY easy to work with, but it seemed like it took a bit more to dampen to the same degree as the kolossus.


Yes. I didn't know about the sale until Best Buy was out of it. Wished I had gotten in on that deal.

On a side note, I did get the Kolossus in today. It is heavier, and doesn't flex as well as the Dynamat did, but I am willing to try it and see if it works. If it doesn't lesson learned. :laugh:


----------



## Bminus

Alrojoca said:


> The difference is like 2db or less in dampening, to me it's not worth for over twice the weight. For sound competition? Yes every DB helps , for the average guy, saving weight, caring about gas mileage etc, probably not.
> 
> Knu resonance control, may be similar in db's to Dynamat still much heavier and measures a big separation gap above the metal line, while Dynamat is smooth to the top like kolossos and SDS. SDS being 1+ Db better than the kolossos.
> 
> Most of The STP's show a gap line below the metal, from the start, I assume that is better even compared to SDS, Kol and Dynamat, STP Still over 0.8 lbs/sft and only silver and gold are butyl based.
> 
> I would choose SS damp pro, over the knu res control for weight and performance unless I'm missing something, it has a smaller gap than the Knu Res control above the metal. 0.55lbs over 0.71 lbs


How much of this stuff are you using?? In my Tundra crewmax I only used around 50sq ft for 25-30% coverage. Even if this stuff weighed 1lb/sqft then you're only looking at 50lbs... My truck weighs 6000lbs soooooo thats less than a 1% increase in weight.. Not gonna affect your gas mileage.. at all. 
Now MLV at 1lb/sqft with 100+ sq ft. that may be a different story.


----------



## Alrojoca

Bminus said:


> How much of this stuff are you using?? In my Tundra crewmax I only used around 50sq ft for 25-30% coverage. Even if this stuff weighed 1lb/sqft then you're only looking at 50lbs... My truck weighs 6000lbs soooooo thats less than a 1% increase in weight.. Not gonna affect your gas mileage.. at all.
> Now MLV at 1lb/sqft with 100+ sq ft. that may be a different story.


That means that with the same coverage you would be carrying 25 lbs less for a truck like yours the difenrnce is insignificant, for a small car it will affect it, the thing is that you need to add some in the door panels, not just the metal.


----------



## Bminus

Alrojoca said:


> That means that with the same coverage you would be carrying 25 lbs less for a truck like yours the difenrnce is insignificant, for a small car it will affect it, the thing is that you need to add some in the door panels, not just the metal.


But remember, in a car you will need less because there is less surface area. And I am including the door panels in that 50sq ft.. 
I would'nt worry about the weight either way. Your driving habits will have a much greater impact on your gas mileage than 50lb of sound deadener.


----------



## Alrojoca

Bminus said:


> But remember, in a car you will need less because there is less surface area. And I am including the door panels in that 50sq ft..
> I would'nt worry about the weight either way. Your driving habits will have a much greater impact on your gas mileage than 50lb of sound deadener.



I guess you are right, except when adding MLV to the doors those 14 lbs per door versus 7 lbs make a huge difference adding another 7 lbs per door with MLV and CCF included and hinches breaking off in a small car.


----------



## Bminus

Alrojoca said:


> I guess you are right, except when adding MLV to the doors those 14 lbs per door versus 7 lbs make a huge difference adding another 7 lbs per door with MLV and CCF included and hinches breaking off in a small car.


Where are you getting 7lb per door? I only have about 6sq ft per door in my truck lol.. Thats, inner, outer, and panel combined. In a car youre talking about 3-4sq ft total... And if your hinges break because of 15lb on your door, I'm sorry but thats a really crappy car. Dont let a small child lean on it with it open..


----------



## Nothingface5384

Chris, ill be shipping you a box with a couple 12x12 samples
Def just rebranded with price markup
low e ez ontop
car insulation on bottom
ill also be doing my own heat testing too and perhaps a car interior DB test


----------



## johnbooth3

Alrojoca said:


> The difference is like 2db or less in dampening, to me it's not worth for over twice the weight. For sound competition? Yes every DB helps , for the average guy, saving weight, caring about gas mileage etc, probably not.
> 
> Knu resonance control, may be similar in db's to Dynamat still much heavier and measures a big separation gap above the metal line, while Dynamat is smooth to the top like kolossos and SDS. SDS being 1+ Db better than the kolossos.
> 
> Most of The STP's show a gap line below the metal, from the start, I assume that is better even compared to SDS, Kol and Dynamat, STP Still over 0.8 lbs/sft and only silver and gold are butyl based.
> 
> I would choose SS damp pro, over the knu res control for weight and performance unless I'm missing something, it has a smaller gap than the Knu Res control above the metal. 0.55lbs over 0.71 lbs


All good points. Just to point out a few things. I am using the Knu Koncepts Kolossus not the Resonance. The Resonance is probably closer the the SS Damp not the Damp Pro so the Damp Pro would be my preferred choice if I could have gotten it a little cheaper. I already spent too much on speakers. 

Gas mileage is a concern, but the additional weight of a sub, sub box, amps, wiring, etc is probably the same as the CLD I am using so mileage concerns aren't an issue as this time.



Bminus said:


> How much of this stuff are you using?? In my Tundra crewmax I only used around 50sq ft for 25-30% coverage. Even if this stuff weighed 1lb/sqft then you're only looking at 50lbs... My truck weighs 6000lbs soooooo thats less than a 1% increase in weight.. Not gonna affect your gas mileage.. at all.
> Now MLV at 1lb/sqft with 100+ sq ft. that may be a different story.


As for Sq Ft, I calculated this, on the higher side, at 72 sq ft for my Avalon. I used 50% and 100% on some items to be safe. That will cover the front doors inside/outside skin, Rear doors inside/outside skin, trunk, trunk lid, rear deck. That is all I am covering at this time. Hope this helps.


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

I have seen a couple speaker installs in pictures here and Youtube, in the door speakers with deadening build up on the baffle around the speakers. Is this needed?

Also, for tweeters, is it important to place anything behind them?


----------



## Alrojoca

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I have seen a couple speaker installs in pictures here and Youtube, in the door speakers with deadening build up on the baffle around the speakers. Is this needed?
> 
> Also, for tweeters, is it important to place anything behind them?



I would think adding around the speaker helps to keep that area solid, I put some behind the inner door around the mounting hole.

You may want to seal the baffle metal area with CCF, some use rope caulk, butyl rope or duct seal, I would not use it under the baffle just on the OD edge. It can get messy.

Tweeters do not need anything behind since they do not move air behind. They benefit from round pod globe type shape, I read it helps with the dispersion.

Similar to these http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1167620-post25.html


----------



## Phil Indeblanc

The KnuKoncepts Kolossus deadening material is superior to whats out there at the price point. 

36sqft shipped for $140 on Amazon. 
Plenty for 4 doors, trunk, some other areas, or another car.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Nothingface5384 said:


> Chris, ill be shipping you a box with a couple 12x12 samples
> Def just rebranded with price markup
> low e ez ontop
> car insulation on bottom
> ill also be doing my own heat testing too and perhaps a car interior DB test


Got it today, thanks for sending it.

Hmm. I'm going to do a full video test of this one since it seems to be such a heated topic, and there may be claims of bias. May do the same with fatmat/peel n seal. That said, who knows, I may use the home improvement store version as some THERMAL insulation.


----------



## Darth SQ

Please no more advertising posts in a private member's thread.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## nineball76

That made me feel all icky. In poor taste.


----------



## seedlings

*Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing RESULTS*



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dynamat xtreme - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat Pro 50 Mil - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat Ultimate 80 Mil - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat 110 Mil - 1 12"x12"
> GTMat Onyx - 1 12"x12"
> Alphadamp - 1 10"x14"
> SDS CLD - 1 6"x10"
> Stinger Road Kill Pro - 2 6"x6"
> Lightning Audio Deadskin - 1 8"x8"
> StP Bomb - 1 sheet
> StP Gold - 1 sheet
> StP Silver - 1 sheet
> StP Vizomat - 1 sheet
> Peel N Seal - 1/3 Roll
> 
> Things that are on the way or have might soon be on the way
> 
> Fatmat
> second skin damp pro
> edead
> possibly some cascade V-2
> possibly some knu concepts stuff
> 
> That leaves me wanting for the test
> 
> cascade vmax
> maybe some raamat


***************edit******************* 
*********LOOK 2 POSTS DOWN**********

I went through the entire thread to make sure I caught all of TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL's individual test posts. Here is the product test list in order of appearance:

stp gold
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951066-post360.html

GTMat Onyx
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951067-post361.html

Second Skin Damplifier Pro
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954600-post373.html

Memphis Audio Mojo Mat
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954607-post374.html

STP-Atlantic Silver
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954612-post375.html

Raamat BXT2
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1955606-post386.html

GTMat 110mil
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956243-post421.html

GTMat 50mil
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956246-post423.html

GTMat Quadro
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1966307-post479.html

*STP Vizomat*
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1971578-post507.html


It is possible (but not likely) that I missed one. I was hoping to find a Peel-N-Seal test that I overlooked. Are there any additional tests coming on some of the other products from your initial post?

Thanks a ton for putting together all this work!
CHAD


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Chad, let me first just say, your awesome. 

I'm at work on my phone, so I'm limited, but here are the post numbers of the tests you were missing and looking for. 

Post 215 - KnuKonceptz Resonance Control

Post 223 - GTMat 80mil

Post 239 - STP-Atlantic Bomb

Post 250 - Peel N Seal

Post 251 - Alphadamp

Post 260 - Stinger Roadkill Expert

Post 261 - SDS CLD Tiles

Post 275 - Dynamat Xtreme

Post 276 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus

Those are all the tests that I think were left out, likely because of a big rash of posts in between them and stp gold. 

I will definitely be finishing testing. There are a few (lot) of things that have happened since I started testing that have delayed things, but it will get finished, unless I die first. Literally. 

Right now, I'm still working 10+ hour days, 5 days a week, and catching up with the house on weekends. This is week 6, which was supposed to be the end, but it looks like it could go on for another 4+ weeks. Its voluntary, but unfortunately, with only one car in the family, I don't have the choice not to work it. I'm also expecting another blow out with my dad/co-owner of my house in the next month. And my mom is literally under the knife right now, getting gastric bypass performed so she can lose enough weight to get her knee replacement and second achilles tendon fixed.


----------



## seedlings

*Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing RESULTS*

Gah! I didn't go back far enough... Here's ALL the results in order of appearance:

KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942672-post215.html

GTMat Ultra
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942915-post223.html

Resonance Control
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942919-post224.html

STP-Atlantic Bomb
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1943596-post239.html

Peel N Seal
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944963-post250.html

Alphadamp
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944965-post251.html

Stinger Roadkill Expert
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945441-post260.html

Sounddeadenershowdown.com CLD Tiles
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945448-post261.html

Dynamat Xtreme
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945898-post275.html

KnuKoncepts Kolossus
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945902-post276.html

stp gold
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951066-post360.html

GTMat Onyx
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951067-post361.html

Second Skin Damplifier Pro
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954600-post373.html

Memphis Audio Mojo Mat
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954607-post374.html

STP-Atlantic Silver
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954612-post375.html

Raamat BXT2
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1955606-post386.html

GTMat 110mil
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956243-post421.html

GTMat 50mil
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956246-post423.html

GTMat Quadro
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1966307-post479.html

*STP Vizomat*
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1971578-post507.html

CHAD


----------



## Catalyx

I'm curious to see the results for MurderMat MDK because I still have 40 sq ft of it. If you don't want to post that since it was discontinued, maybe you could send me the info privately?


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I will definitely be finishing testing. There are a few (lot) of things that have happened since I started testing that have delayed things, but it will get finished, unless I die first. Literally.
> 
> Right now, I'm still working 10+ hour days, 5 days a week, and catching up with the house on weekends. This is week 6, which was supposed to be the end, but it looks like it could go on for another 4+ weeks. Its voluntary, but unfortunately, with only one car in the family, I don't have the choice not to work it. I'm also expecting another blow out with my dad/co-owner of my house in the next month. And my mom is literally under the knife right now, getting gastric bypass performed so she can lose enough weight to get her knee replacement and second achilles tendon fixed.


And in the midst of that you have some local bugging you to come by so you can listen to something, or to make use of your equipment, or to...

I know people are probably anxious, but take care of yourself and your family first. If you guys need anything, please let me know!



Catalyx said:


> I'd be curious to see the results for MurderMat MDK because I still have 40 sq ft of it. If you don't want to post that since it was discontinued, maybe you could send me the info privately?


If I am not mistaken, MurderMat MDK did very well. Slightly better than Knu Kolossus. If it was still around, it would be the value leader.


----------



## Catalyx

rton20s said:


> If I am not mistaken, MurderMat MDK did very well. Slightly better than Knu Kolossus. If it was still around, it would be the value leader.


I saw that mentioned so assume he did a full test which I'd like to see the measurements and graphs from.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin is dead on. It performed rediculous close to kolossus, just barely edging it out.

I don't believe I ever saved screen shots, so ill have to open up the rew file and grab them. Likely will be sunday. I gotta work tomorrow, then pick my mom up from the hospital, then sat I have to work again. And I'm just getting off now after 11 hours.


Dustin, don't forget, without said local, I would have likely not tested kolossus and we wouldn't have a value leader


----------



## Catalyx

Much appreciated, whenever you have time will be fine!


----------



## ryankenn

I just ordered some 80MIL Butyl based stuff from Noico on Amazon. 36 sqft was $60. I thought it couldn't hurt at that price, and was intrigued that it is sold by StP who've made some of the product here that did well.

I've seen three products on Ebay/Amazon that going through this thread didn't see tested. The most surprising was B-Quiet as they've been around forever. But the Noico and some product called Reckhorn ABX both have fantastic reviews on Amazon. Not that it would translate to performance, but who knows.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have b-quiet here, just need the ot to end for time to open up. I'm actually taking a couple days off of working overtime to try to recover as I'm burned out, but then it starts back up again.

Both reckorn and noico are new products that weren't out when I started.


----------



## chithead

I'm curious about the Noico, as it has definitely caught my eye.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Headed to bed, but what's the smallest amount they sell it in? Same for the reckhorn?


----------



## Catalyx

Amazon.com: Noico Speaker Kit 2 Sheets Audio Deadener and Sound Dampening Automotive Installation (1.4 Sqft 80 Mil Self-adhesive Foil & Butyl License Plate Kit): Automotive


----------



## radarcontact

Call me lazy but there are 1440+ posts on this subject...

Can someone who's been following this please provide the forum with a short synopsis??

- What are the best (so far) regardless of cost?
- Which are the best bang for the buck?
- Which are worthless?

I'm sure I'm not the only one asking these questions as they try to decipher all this data.

V/r
Radar


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Peel n seal worthless. Gtmat products range from worthless to subpar. Sds cld tiles and knukonceptz kolossus are at the top of products I can recommend, and Kolossus is the value leader. Dynamat, damp pro, are somewhere in the middle.

Links to all posted tests are just a few posts up.


----------



## radarcontact

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Peel n seal worthless. Gtmat products range from worthless to subpar. Sds cld tiles and knukonceptz kolossus are at the top of products I can recommend, and Kolossus is the value leader. Dynamat, damp pro, are somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Links to all posted tests are just a few posts up.


Awesome, thanks. I'll go back and read some more when I get some free time.
Great job putting it all together


----------



## Alrojoca

Yes ! and with the top performers, you pay more either on pricing or over double the weight as compared to Dynamat Xtreme. Not as heavy, STP silver and second skin D Pro, but Dynamat is the lightest one and performs well just under Knu Kol and SDS being the top performer, if weight is an issue. 

Not sure how the shipping works, I hope SDS is reasonable since there is no need to buy 30 or 40 square foot, and they sell tiles that will fit in a ups priority box for a flat rate, this is something to consider if SDS uses USPS, if not all bets are off cause shipping can add up with fed ex or ups. I shipped 8 complete 1'by3 ft sheets of Dynamat for about $12.00 (24 sqf) and I could add 2 more sheets in there if I wanted, not bad for under 13 lbs.


----------



## freerider

Is there a thread with similar info on CCF and MLV? I just bought some KnuKoncepts Kolossus for my doors, based on the posts here and would like to know the best value for the CCF and MLV.

Right now, I'm leaning towards melamine sponges from China for CCF (applied with 3M Super-77 spray adhesive), and dB-3 acoustical barrier from Home Depot for the MLV.


----------



## Beckerson1

freerider said:


> Is there a thread with similar info on CCF and MLV? I just bought some KnuKoncepts Kolossus for my doors, based on the posts here and would like to know the best value for the CCF and MLV.
> 
> Right now, I'm leaning towards melamine sponges from China for CCF (applied with 3M Super-77 spray adhesive), and dB-3 acoustical barrier from Home Depot for the MLV.


Maybe a future project. But I'm not aware of a in depth study such as this thread for CCF or MLV


I'd use something different for the MLV. While the dB-3 stuff is nice for floors it isn't very workable for vertical surfaces. It will bend slightly but only to a limit before it breaks. I'd look into something different.


----------



## Alrojoca

I think the HD stuff is reinforced and not as flexible, it is for wall installations and 3/4 Lb/sf

The thing with MLV is make sure it meets the weight specs, it does not tear like paper or made of recycled vinyl and it does not smell, some has a strong smell that will not go away. 

The acoustic properties, are not significant since it is a sound barrier not a sound acoustic dampener. Just my opinion 

Lead maybe a better alternative, 1/32" thick and 2lb/sf, or 1/64" 1lb/sf

Any foam will work, 1/4" for floors 1/8" for doors, or if you can fit 1/4" in the doors, better. $1-1.50 s/f is a good pricing range.


----------



## Catalyx

freerider said:


> Is there a thread with similar info on CCF and MLV? I just bought some KnuKoncepts Kolossus for my doors, based on the posts here and would like to know the best value for the CCF and MLV.
> 
> Right now, I'm leaning towards melamine sponges from China for CCF (applied with 3M Super-77 spray adhesive), and dB-3 acoustical barrier from Home Depot for the MLV.


I'd recommend hydrophobic melamine and higher quality MLV for reasons mentioned above. Check out the SDS site for more info:

Products | Sound Deadener Showdown


----------



## ryankenn

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Headed to bed, but what's the smallest amount they sell it in? Same for the reckhorn?


I got mine today, along with the foam they sell:

Amazon.com: Noico Liner 37.5 Sqft Heat & Cool Automotive Insulation Pad, Foam Self-adhesive Sound Deadening and Dampening Mat for Cars & Trucks (1/6'' or 157 Mil Sound Deadener): Automotive

Its the 80mil. How much do you need to test it, I can mail you a sample.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

A 6x8" sheet for a single test. That plus a second 6"x6" sheet for two tests, which I prefer for consistency. Shoot me a pm if you can donate some.


----------



## ryankenn

PM Sent.


----------



## yositoco

In for results on the Noico and others


----------



## ryankenn

I have the Noico samples ready to go, but no address to ship them to.


----------



## Weigel21

My house.  I could use any/all the deadener I can get my hands on. 

On a more serious note, I too am looking forward to the results.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's my bad. I had some family issues this weekend that stressed me out and I just completely forgot. Pming you now.


----------



## ryankenn

Mailed out the Noico samples today. 5-10 business days.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Awesome, thanks for helping out.


----------



## gckless

In for test of Noico.


----------



## ryankenn

Curious if my package arrived yet? Should be soon if it hasn't.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yeah I got it today actually, thanks again.


----------



## Older

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Sds cld tiles and knukonceptz kolossus are at the top of products I can recommend,


Is 'SDS' Sound Deadener Showdown.com?
Thanks.
Bob


----------



## james2266

Older said:


> Is 'SDS' Sound Deadener Showdown.com?
> Thanks.
> Bob


I'll answer here for him. Yes, SDS = Sound Deadener Showdown. They make some of the best stuff and the owner is awesome to deal with. His stuff isn't cheap either when it comes to financially or quality. Get what you pay for I guess.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^yep.

K, update. Tomorrow, I have to go to the county clerk, and will likely be there for a large part of the day. Next week I have to sort through and print nearly 50 emails and sort and print a couple hundred texts. After that is finished, there will be nothing stopping me from working on this during my free time. I can probably get a couple tests in on weds, and several on both sat and Sunday once the previously mentioned business is tended to.


----------



## ryankenn

Any updates? I've only done the floor of my truck, and want to do the doors and cab, but don't want to order a ton more if its complete junk. If it is, I may try the Reckhorn next round, and I could send samples of that as well.


----------



## Lanson

Still kicking ass and taking names with Kolossus in most of my builds. I use about 50-75% coverage "just cuz" and enjoy working with it, even in difficult to reach or work areas. Pair that with some radiant barrier and life's a peach.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Full disclosure, haven't gotten to do anything yet. I thought I would be able to get things ready faster than I am able. I can't really say online what I'm prepping for, but a few of you that know me know the situation that's coming up, and the opposing side has just been getting worse, including a heated exchange on the other parties end tonight. Because this situation is permanently life changing, i have to focus on that right now. I do have all samples cut out, and the test enclosure set up, it's a matter of having a few hours in a row of free time.


----------



## rton20s

Chris, if you need anything, please let me know. Life has been hectic on our end as well, but we can make time if you need something.


----------



## SQLnovice

Only know you from reading your invaluable contributions to this forum. What ever it is, I hope it goes in your favor and with the least stress (if that's possible). All the best.


----------



## Darth SQ

Just thought I'd post this update.
I found a local source with a much better price for hydrophobic solution to coat the melamine foam tiles.
Hope this helps. 

Amazon.com: Rust-Oleum 280886 NeverWet 11-Ounce Shoe and Boot Spray, Clear: Home Improvement



Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Bret, does that stuff let air through? If not, it may circumvent the absorptive qualities of the foam. That's the problem I found with the Black Hole Tiles, the coating prevents it from being effective.



Dustin and SQL, thanks. Dustin, I'll probably shoot you a text next week, I should have the leads soldered on those tweeters by then. And I'll keep you in the loop. Right now it's just more baseless accusations (of things that if they had happened, would have happened over a year ago). But it's time to get prepared for the worst, just in case, so lots of paperwork and digging through old texts/emails etc, then printing and organising it to build a case. At some point in the next few months we'll need to talk to someone that deals with this kind of stuff once we're all organized for it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Oh, Ryan, I'll shoot you a pm tomorrow when I'm on an actual computer about your next deadening steps.


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Bret, does that stuff let air through? If not, it may circumvent the absorptive qualities of the foam. That's the problem I found with the Black Hole Tiles, the coating prevents it from being effective.
> 
> 
> 
> Dustin and SQL, thanks. Dustin, I'll probably shoot you a text next week, I should have the leads soldered on those tweeters by then. And I'll keep you in the loop. Right now it's just more baseless accusations (of things that if they had happened, would have happened over a year ago). But it's time to get prepared for the worst, just in case, so lots of paperwork and digging through old texts/emails etc, then printing and organising it to build a case. At some point in the next few months we'll need to talk to someone that deals with this kind of stuff once we're all organized for it.


Yes. It's designed for canvas, clothing, and shoes.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Lanson

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yes. It's designed for canvas, clothing, and shoes.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


As I understand patent, the coating basically on a nano level makes the surface extremely "spikey" and rough, so a water molecule can't sit on it. The water molecule "would rather" stay balled up, attracted to itself (staying basic here), rather than saturate or pool on this surface. 

Since the coating is on the nano level, it shouldn't affect air molecules which pass right through it. At least that's what I got out of the patent.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Neverwet (the 2 stage kit) - You can get that now at home despot. It does leave a bit of a grainy feel to the surface but it is still breathable. It also does change the color a slight bit (lighter). Have used it on some boots and it does bead up like nobody's business.


----------



## rdubbs

The problem with Neverwet is that you need to reapply both coats, stage 1 and 2 after a certain amount of water exposure. It says so in the fine print, but having also used the product, I can attest that it is not ForeverNeverWet. If you don't mind having to reapply every so often then by all means a great product, but it's not a long term permanent solution.


----------



## Darth SQ

rdubbs said:


> The problem with Neverwet is that you need to reapply both coats, stage 1 and 2 after a certain amount of water exposure. It says so in the fine print, but having also used the product, I can attest that it is not ForeverNeverWet. If you don't mind having to reapply every so often then by all means a great product, but it's not a long term permanent solution.


That's the two stage stuff.
The bottle I showed is a different formula.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rdubbs

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That's the two stage stuff.
> The bottle I showed is a different formula.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I can't imagine that it being a different formula makes that much a difference in expectancy. Even the company describes it as a temporary solution http://www.rustoleum.com/pages/homeowner/faqs/neverwet-boot-and-shoe/?page=2


> 7. How long will Rust-Oleum NeverWet Boot & Shoe treatment last?
> As with other waterproofers, NeverWet is a temporary treatment. Environmental conditions will affect the longevity of the Rust-Oleum NeverWet Boot & Shoe treatment. Continual exposure and abrasion are the leading cause of reduction in the treatment’s life. NeverWet Boot & Shoe can be reapplied as repellency begins to decrease.


I hope that this is a better formula and lasts a very long time, I think it's an awesome product and if it continues to improve over time, there will be many benefits for Car Audio and Home applications, I just don't know that it's where it needs to be just yet.


----------



## chiefgeek

*Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing RESULTS*



seedlings said:


> Gah! I didn't go back far enough... Here's ALL the results in order of appearance:
> 
> KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942672-post215.html
> 
> GTMat Ultra
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942915-post223.html
> 
> Resonance Control,
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942919-post224.html
> 
> STP-Atlantic Bomb
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1943596-post239.html
> 
> Peel N Seal
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944963-post250.html
> 
> Alphadamp
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944965-post251.html
> 
> Stinger Roadkill Expert
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945441-post260.html
> 
> Sounddeadenershowdown.com CLD Tiles
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945448-post261.html
> 
> Dynamat Xtreme
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945898-post275.html
> 
> KnuKoncepts Kolossus
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945902-post276.html
> 
> stp gold
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951066-post360.html
> 
> GTMat Onyx
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951067-post361.html
> 
> Second Skin Damplifier Pro
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954600-post373.html
> 
> Memphis Audio Mojo Mat
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954607-post374.html
> 
> STP-Atlantic Silver
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954612-post375.html
> 
> Raamat BXT2
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1955606-post386.html
> 
> GTMat 110mil
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956243-post421.html
> 
> GTMat 50mil
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956246-post423.html
> 
> GTMat Quadro
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1966307-post479.html
> 
> *STP Vizomat*
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1971578-post507.html
> 
> CHAD


Awesome work. Any way to put this in a spreadsheet or ordered list?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There will be am ordered list when all products are finished. Probably a spreadsheet too, although I'm horrible at them, my wife will probably help with that.


----------



## Darth SQ

rdubbs said:


> I can't imagine that it being a different formula makes that much a difference in expectancy. Even the company describes it as a temporary solution http://www.rustoleum.com/pages/homeowner/faqs/neverwet-boot-and-shoe/?page=2
> 
> I hope that this is a better formula and lasts a very long time, I think it's an awesome product and if it continues to improve over time, there will be many benefits for Car Audio and Home applications, I just don't know that it's where it needs to be just yet.


Obviously Rust-o-leum released two different versions for a reason.
Now I'm not looking to get in a pissing contest; just looking for solutions for the DIYer and avoid paying lots of money for the BASF stuff.
There's a couple of sq guys going this route on FB and have decided to try a different application approach than just misting the melamine foam tiles with the spray bottle.
I will let you all know how it works out.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

Chris, I can help with the spreadsheet, as well, if you need it.


----------



## rdubbs

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Obviously Rust-o-leum released two different versions for a reason.
> Now I'm not looking to get in a pissing contest; just looking for solutions for the DIYer and avoid paying lots of money for the BASF stuff.
> There's a couple of sq guys going this route on FB and have decided to try a different application approach than just misting the melamine foam tiles with the spray bottle.
> I will let you all know how it works out.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


That sounds great, thanks Bret. I'm all for finding new solutions to help increase efficiency. I'm curious how the Scothguard would be applied, but I think that conversation would be best in a new thread.


----------



## Darth SQ

rdubbs said:


> That sounds great, thanks Bret. I'm all for finding new solutions to help increase efficiency. I'm curious how the Scothguard would be applied, but I think that conversation would be best in a new thread.


So glad you post this cuz I have a bunch new info to pass onto you all.
A friend of mine who's heavily into sq like we are did some testing for me during is ongoing build using low cost untreated melamine foam tiles today and yesterday.
Everything tested except the melamine foam tiles was purchased at WalMart.
Here's the results of the testing:

New Rust Oleum Neverwet Boot Shoe Water Repelling Treatment 11 oz 280886 | eBay

Rustoleum NEVERWET (spray bottle formula)-Sprayed directly to the tile and let cure-sucked ass in it absorbed as much water as it repelled when spraying water droplets on it.

Rustoleum NEVERWET (spray bottle formula)-Poured into a plate and submerging the tile in it, wringing it out, and let cure-worked much better but still absorbed a small amount of water when spraying water droplets on it making it useless for our purposes since any water absorption is not acceptable.

Rustoleum NEVERWET does not work for our purposes.


Rustoleum 2 Stage NEVERWET was not tested but as stated before in this thread, it's hydrophobic abilities weren't very good.


The other product tried was this stuff.
http://www.amazon.com/Atsko-Silicone-Water-Guard-10-5-oz/dp/B0001FYL2M

ATSKO Silicon Water-Guard (Spray can formula)-Sprayed directly on the melamine foam block and let cure-Worked exactly as described thoroughly repelling all water droplets leaving the foam block dry. In my friend's opinion, this stuff worked so well he's going ahead and treating the foam going in his doors with it.

ATSKO Silicon Water-Guard works very well for our purposes.


So in conclusion, there's two routes that can be taken when using ultra low cost untreated melamine foam as sound absorbing:

1-Install it untreated only in areas not exposed to moisture such as the ceiling and use SDS's BASF BASOTECH melamine foam in areas like the doors.

2-Install it untreated only in areas not exposed to moisture such as the ceiling and then once treated with ATSKO apply it in areas like the doors.

3/4" Hydrophobic Melamine Foam | Sound Deadener Showdown


I hope that helps clear it all up.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rdubbs

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> So glad you post this cuz I have a bunch new info to pass onto you all.
> A friend of mine who's heavily into sq like we are did some testing for me during is ongoing build using low cost untreated melamine foam tiles today and yesterday.
> Everything tested except the melamine foam tiles was purchased at WalMart.
> Here's the results of the testing:
> 
> The other product tried was this stuff.
> http://www.amazon.com/Atsko-Silicone-Water-Guard-10-5-oz/dp/B0001FYL2M
> 
> ATSKO Silicon Water-Guard (Spray can formula)-Sprayed directly on the melamine foam block and let cure-Worked exactly as described thoroughly repelling all water droplets leaving the foam block dry. In my friend's opinion, this stuff worked so well he's going ahead and treating the foam going in his doors with it.
> 
> ATSKO Silicon Water-Guard works very well for our purposes.
> 
> 
> So in conclusion, there's two routes that can be taken when using ultra low cost untreated melamine foam as sound absorbing:
> 
> 1-Install it untreated only in areas not exposed to moisture such as the ceiling and use SDS's BASF BASOTECH melamine foam in areas like the doors.
> 
> 2-Install it untreated only in areas not exposed to moisture such as the ceiling and then once treated with ATSKO apply it in areas like the doors.
> 
> 3/4" Hydrophobic Melamine Foam | Sound Deadener Showdown
> 
> 
> I hope that helps clear it all up.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Awesome! Thanks Bret! Thank your friend for me too, saved me the trouble of doing some waterproof testing. Although now searching around all the camping guys and gals use ATSKO, so it must be great stuff. I may start using it on the couches instead of Scotchgard and if I get around to spraying the Civic, use it in there too. I'm going to link to this post in the thread I started earlier.


----------



## Woosey

Are the results from Silent Coat lost? 

Can't find them ( makes me curious why the best performers are not in the list.. ??? )


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll add them later. It was just an honest oversight on my part. That said, I can't recommend them for people in hot environments. I don't think it would stay put on the roof after repeated heating and cooling. Just as I don't think the #1 performer, stp bomb would either. Neither of these products hold up to heat to a level I'd be happy with.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Silent Coat 5mm Bi-Layer

This product stinks. I mean that literally. It smells like heavy duty wheel bearing grease. I've heard reports from other people that it doesn't, but I can only go by my test samples, which came in two separate boxes, and both smelled the same.


----------



## jonah1810

Has anyone ever used nvx's cld? Sonic electronix has a deal going and you can get it bundled with Image dynamics subs and i was wondering if it's any good


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

It's been tested. Midrange performance, slightly worse than Dynamat Xtreme. More worrying is that some people have used it in their doors and have had it slide down the door from heat. That product will be heat tested this sunday.


----------



## SQLnovice

jonah1810 said:


> Has anyone ever used nvx's cld? Sonic electronix has a deal going and you can get it bundled with Image dynamics subs and i was wondering if it's any good


Don't do it. I toss approximately 20 square feet in the trash. I had installed some on the outer door skin of my car and it melted like chocolate. I uploaded pictures on this thread. I'll have to go back and see what post # it is. I like lots of products by NVX, but definitely not their cld. I live in Florida and I know it can get hot here, but my car is almost never in the direct sun for more than an hour. Just my personal experience.


----------



## Lanson

I will comment that Knu Kolossus held up through this summer's worst (desert summer, triple digits easy) with zero issues in any of my cars. But it does become a ***** to deal with when it contacts things it shouldn't in that heat, like concrete floor, bottom of my shoes, etc. 

Keep Goo Gone (the orange-smelling stuff) on hand at all times when working with it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll agree with that I have some on the bottom of my turntable plinth, and it's as sticky today as it was when I put it on. Also have some SDS butyl rope packed into the bearing housing for it and it's also still super sticky.


----------



## GotaCC

What page is the spread sheet on? I see the links to the test results but don't really know how to interpret the data. I'm just looking for cheap sound dampener.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There is no spread sheet yet as there as still some products to test. As of now, I expect no surprises from the rest of the products, but, have been proven wrong in the past (although the more I tested, the more accurate my assumptions of performance were).

Of the currently tested products, that I can recommend for in car use based on heat resistance, sds cld tiles and knukonceptz kolossus are at the top of the list. A step below that, is stp Atlantic gold. A step below that is dynamat xtreme, second skin damplifier pro, stp Atlantic silver. A step below that, raamat bxt2, Memphis MOJO mat, knukonceptz resonance control, and stinger roadkill expert. 

Keep in mind it would likely take twice as much of the bottom products I listed here to do as well as the top products, making any money savings a moot point.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> There is no spread sheet yet as there as still some products to test. As of now, I expect no surprises from the rest of the products, but, have been proven wrong in the past (although the more I tested, the more accurate my assumptions of performance were).
> 
> Of the currently tested products, that I can recommend for in car use based on heat resistance, sds cld tiles and knukonceptz kolossus are at the top of the list. A step below that, is stp Atlantic gold. A step below that is dynamat xtreme, second skin damplifier pro, stp Atlantic silver. A step below that, raamat bxt2, Memphis MOJO mat, knukonceptz resonance control, and stinger roadkill expert.
> 
> Keep in mind it would likely take twice as much of the bottom products I listed here to do as well as the top products, making any money savings a moot point.


Chris, you should just make this whole post your new signature.


----------



## Aaronbang

Very informative thread, thank you for taking the time to test all these products. I learned quite a bit, we were going to just spray some lizard skin stuff all over the car ( 61 Impala ) but now I think we will be using the SDS products


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

rton20s said:


> Chris, you should just make this whole post your new signature.


Lol, good idea. I've probably said the same thing via pm at least 15 times. Maybe try to update the first post with a basic "so far" summary.


----------



## rton20s

Aaronbang said:


> Very informative thread, thank you for taking the time to test all these products. I learned quite a bit, we were going to just spray some lizard skin stuff all over the car ( 61 Impala ) but now I think we will be using the SDS products


Good to see some new local blood here on DIYMA. Chris (TooStubborn2Fail) who has done all of the testing and myself (Dustin) are both from Visalia. If you're ever in need of local assistance, let us know.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^what he said. I didn't even pay attention to your location lol.


----------



## Siezmik

Any word on when the Noico testing will be complete? I looked through the results and didn't see it as of yet.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll respond tomorrow morning. It has not been tested yet aside from heat testing. I'm still fighting computer problems, thinking I may have to buy a new soundcard, especially now as the left analog input channel has completely failed.

I can say, that I have no reason to believe it will fail due to heat. It survived all heat tests, including 45 mins at 400 degrees and more than 5 total hours in the oven at 200+ F.


----------



## Tenacious

No vibraflex yet? That is the one I'm waiting on. 2mm and 4mm both would be interesting.


----------



## andrew2944r

Tenacious said:


> No vibraflex yet? That is the one I'm waiting on. 2mm and 4mm both would be interesting.[/QUOT
> 
> A sample was sent.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I did get the sample, it is the thicker of the two. It will be heat tested monday as I have it off. 

No new damping testing has been performed. I was/am having software issues and am now having hardware issues that I am trying to resolve. My sound card has dropped a channel, which I will be trouble shooting monday as well. I don't know if this will affect the measurements or not, I'll know monday. I also still have the issue with the huge high q dips that starts around 800hz. That is supposedly related to a windows update, and the only solution is a factory restore. To complete that, I need more storage than I have, so I am working on that. May be able to temporarily borrow an external hard drive.


----------



## sc1984

I am about to purchase some sound deadening. Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that STP Bomb seems to be the front runner with SDS coming in at close 2nd? From what I gather STP is 2x as much as SDS. So for performance for the buck SDS seem to be a good choice so far?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I would choose sds over bomb at this point, simply because it's heat resistance will never be a problem in a car, where stp bomb could be an issue depending on climate.


----------



## Devilman

Awesome thread, Thankyou for putting this together!!

I do have some questions for y'all on the remaining products I need to buy and would like y'all's opinion. This will be a decently long read so bare with me lol. 

I've read this an various other threads on here, the SDS site as well as every other vehicle deadening stuff I could find. I think I've got a plan on accomplishing my goal of making the truck as quiet as possible for ride quality as well as making my audio sound good. 

My truck is a 2015 Ram Megacab Diesel 2500 4x4, big lift and big noisy tires, so up front I have a big cab with lots of area to cover a noisy engine and tires against me. 
I've ordered 105 sq ft of Kolossus, 100 sq ft of ensolite, 3 rolls of butyl rope, ultra touch denim insulation, Velcro, double sided tape, foil tape, various different Tesa tape rolls, roller, and a razor knife. Been buyin stuff on sale the last couple months and I didn't wanna run out of anything once I start the project. Also have 40+/- sq ft of damplifier an 20 sq ft of STP hood liner (Craigslist package deal I got for $40!!) 

What would y'all recommend for MLV? I was going to order some luxury liner an LLP from second skin because of their Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale going on right now.

Is there a better or cheaper version of MLV? 

Also considering ordering some spectrum or spectrum sludge to do the wheel wells and exterior floor pan, under the bed an inner bed sides. Remember I have a diesel an noisy tires and trying to make it as quiet as possible. 
Would y'all recommend the spectrum underneath an on the wheel wells? Or waste of money?

For the roof I'll deaden it but need a recommendation for an absorber/barrier. Is there a place to order the 3m thinsulate acoustic for a decent price? I'd like to use it on the roof and every empty cavity available.

If not the thinsulate is there a cheaper place to get the melamine foam than SDS? I'd preferably like bigger sheets of melamine than using the small cleaner/eraser size. Seems very time consuming lol. 
If neither of those, what about Second Skin's heat wave pro for the roof? I like the idea of the heat reduction with Texas heat we get but don't know if it's an effective absorber compared to the thinsulate or melamine. 
I have the denim insulation I was planning on stuffing in the roof cavities an other void spaces but am concerned about it molding/mildewing over time and smelling awful. 

Any help/recommendations y'all can give will be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks!


----------



## LaserSVT

Well thanks to this thread my wallet is now a few hundred lighter. LOL

Ordered the SDS tiles, rope and MLV.


----------



## Weigel21

Not that it's a great deal, but Sonic Electronix has Stinger RoadKill Expert on sale for $103 for 36sqft.


----------



## Devilman

Weigel21 said:


> Not that it's a great deal, but Sonic Electronix has Stinger RoadKill Expert on sale for $103 for 36sqft.


Amazon has it also for $81.99 an free shipping


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The amazon prices is the highest I would pay for it based on performance. Even then, it's more of a last resort.


----------



## seafish

Devilman said:


> What would y'all recommend for MLV? I was going to order some luxury liner an LLP from second skin because of their Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale going on right now.
> 
> Is there a better or cheaper version of MLV?



With the amounts you are buying (nothing wrong with it) you might as well buy a 100 sf roll of MLV from these guys with frees shipping and perhaps even a Black Friday 10% discount, though not sure if it applies to the mlv--

TMsoundproofing.com - Soundproofing Materials and Articles.

I have ordered their PSA backed 1# MLV and it is the real deal, virgin vinyl, no smell.


----------



## Devilman

Thankyou seafish! I was just researching tms and was concerned about a possible smell. Lol and yeah I'll probably have enough of everything left over to do a 2nd vehicle.


----------



## seafish

Devilman said:


> Thankyou seafish! I was just researching tms and was concerned about a possible smell. Lol and yeah I'll probably have enough of everything left over to do a 2nd vehicle.


In the past, they have offered me at a 5% discount on a whole roll…it can;t hurt to ask about it since they are having a sale anyway…or just try playing around with items in the cart and any promo coupons you might find on their site or even online. If it does;t work now, call em on Monday and tell em you could;t get the discount and waited to order until you could get one from them. Worse case you have to pay full price for an excellent product, but I doubt it given my experience with them.


----------



## Lanson

I am experimenting with Low E foil-plastic foam bubble-foil stuff, to replace the denim radiant barrier. Not sold on it yet but I'm doing a Vette from inside out with the stuff.



Devilman said:


> Awesome thread, Thankyou for putting this together!!
> 
> I do have some questions for y'all on the remaining products I need to buy and would like y'all's opinion. This will be a decently long read so bare with me lol.
> 
> I've read this an various other threads on here, the SDS site as well as every other vehicle deadening stuff I could find. I think I've got a plan on accomplishing my goal of making the truck as quiet as possible for ride quality as well as making my audio sound good.
> 
> My truck is a 2015 Ram Megacab Diesel 2500 4x4, big lift and big noisy tires, so up front I have a big cab with lots of area to cover a noisy engine and tires against me.
> I've ordered 105 sq ft of Kolossus, 100 sq ft of ensolite, 3 rolls of butyl rope, ultra touch denim insulation, Velcro, double sided tape, foil tape, various different Tesa tape rolls, roller, and a razor knife. Been buyin stuff on sale the last couple months and I didn't wanna run out of anything once I start the project. Also have 40+/- sq ft of damplifier an 20 sq ft of STP hood liner (Craigslist package deal I got for $40!!)
> 
> What would y'all recommend for MLV? I was going to order some luxury liner an LLP from second skin because of their Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale going on right now.
> 
> Is there a better or cheaper version of MLV?
> 
> Also considering ordering some spectrum or spectrum sludge to do the wheel wells and exterior floor pan, under the bed an inner bed sides. Remember I have a diesel an noisy tires and trying to make it as quiet as possible.
> Would y'all recommend the spectrum underneath an on the wheel wells? Or waste of money?
> 
> For the roof I'll deaden it but need a recommendation for an absorber/barrier. Is there a place to order the 3m thinsulate acoustic for a decent price? I'd like to use it on the roof and every empty cavity available.
> 
> If not the thinsulate is there a cheaper place to get the melamine foam than SDS? I'd preferably like bigger sheets of melamine than using the small cleaner/eraser size. Seems very time consuming lol.
> If neither of those, what about Second Skin's heat wave pro for the roof? I like the idea of the heat reduction with Texas heat we get but don't know if it's an effective absorber compared to the thinsulate or melamine.
> I have the denim insulation I was planning on stuffing in the roof cavities an other void spaces but am concerned about it molding/mildewing over time and smelling awful.
> 
> Any help/recommendations y'all can give will be greatly appreciated!!
> Thanks!


----------



## Devilman

fourthmeal said:


> I am experimenting with Low E foil-plastic foam bubble-foil stuff, to replace the denim radiant barrier. Not sold on it yet but I'm doing a Vette from inside out with the stuff.


Thankyou sir, I'll have to take a look at that. I had originally gotten some of the denim radiant barrier but I didn't wanna use it after looking at it more, seems like it would be ruined before long. I do have some of the ultra touch denim stuffing I was gonna stuff in the roof but was concerned about possible moisture/condensation getting to it and it molding over time. 
I'm trying to find some hydrophobic melamine foam like SDS has, for cheaper and local to me but no luck so far.


----------



## Devilman

seafish said:


> With the amounts you are buying (nothing wrong with it) you might as well buy a 100 sf roll of MLV from these guys with frees shipping and perhaps even a Black Friday 10% discount, though not sure if it applies to the mlv--
> 
> TMsoundproofing.com - Soundproofing Materials and Articles.
> 
> I have ordered their PSA backed 1# MLV and it is the real deal, virgin vinyl, no smell.


Did the PSA MLV work good for sticking the CCF to it? I like this idea to save time and it's only a couple bucks more than the regular MLV. 

Now I just gotta find some Thinsulate or Basotect for a good price!


----------



## seafish

Devilman said:


> Did the PSA MLV work good for sticking the CCF to it? I like this idea to save time and it's only a couple bucks more than the regular MLV.
> 
> Now I just gotta find some Thinsulate or Basotect for a good price!


Thats why I used it but ONLY in places where I will never need to remove it…for me that was the rear cab wall and floor, as well as small pieces on removable panels. I also used the PSA ensolite and where I wanted to make things removable, I simply stuck the PSA sides to each other and then laid down, hung or attached like regular MLV, but it essentially was homemade luxury liner pro. 

Speaking of LLP, (since this thread seems to allow ALL sorts of deadening posts lol), Trademark is now carrying a laminated MLV/foam carpet backing product available in different thicknesses and weights and publishes excellent STP specs for it. AFAICT, the 3/8"/ 1# sf version, it is essentially LLP at a 30% discount and with free shipping as far as I calculate it--

Sound Damping Carpet Underlayment

And you can buy it buy the foot, though the free shipping doesn't kick in until you buy 4 feet at $20/ft

I will def check it out for the floor of my next build.


----------



## Alrojoca

Anybody in the SF bay area, I can offer 50 ft rolls for local purchase at $2.50 sq/ft. I can also offer 100 ft rolls if needed perhaps cheaper. 

All details, and extra links of this link for information 100% guaranteed, no smell 1 lb and thinner than 1/8".

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...s/227250-fs-mlv-50-ft-rolls-sale-locally.html


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll pm you later today IT.


I


----------



## LaserSVT

This test is no joke. Great data and I just had to try it myself. My truck has 100% coverage of GTMat Quadro and the 110mil stuff. Made a big difference. Spent about $350. For my other car I used the SDS CLD tiles and did a 30-50% coverage (30 on door cards and trunk and 50ish on the door skins) and it made a much bigger difference and this was on a car thats already pretty dead. That SDS really kicks ass. Plus due to not needing as much I spent less than half AND got some SDS MLV for the floor.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Good to know it's helping.



I have some news..............

But I can't share yet. 

Hopefully this afternoon.


----------



## 61ragtop

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Good to know it's helping.
> 
> 
> 
> I have some news..............
> 
> But I can't share yet.
> 
> Hopefully this afternoon.



Please do tell!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

As soon as I get confirmation of a couple of things I will. Hoping to get that via phone call around lunch time.


----------



## SkizeR

SPILL THE BEANS!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There is a product that beat out kolossus in both heat and damping testing at 77f. It also beat out sds in damping testing at 77f, but not in heat testing.

I need to work out availability and pricing before I say who. It used to be available on amazon and the companies website, but it's not showing it's currently for sale. I am in direct contact with the main guy in charge, we've just been playing phone tag for a couple days.


----------



## SkizeR

didnt the stp stuff beat out sds too? but wasnt exactly a cld so it wasnt comparable?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Stp bomb did beat out sds, but it failed at the same temp as peel n seal in heat testing.

Not one of the brands all over Facebook either, although, those brands did make it through all of the heat testing unfazed.


----------



## Lanson

Heat is a big deal for me, so I'm definitely staying tuned. Kolossus is some sweet stuff though, especially on free shipping promotions. I've got another batch headed my way this weekend, as a matter of fact.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Fwiw, the difference in kolossus and this other product is not big enough to rip out installed kolossus. It's just worth a look when buying product in the future.

For reference, kolossus failed at 300 degrees, this product failed at 350. This product performed about 1-1.5db better at resonance.

It's enough that depending on availability, I'll be using a combo of this and sds instead of Kolossus and sds.


----------



## Lanson

LOL I double-dog dare you to try and rip it out anyways. You'd be there a long, long while. But that applies to all good deadener I feel. Hell, old RAAMmat builds I did years ago, that stuff ain't coming out either. The only one I ever felt compelled to rip out (and it wasn't hard) was GT Mat.

Love your work man, I hope everything is getting better for you in the rest of your life, I know you've had some challenges come at you.


----------



## rton20s

Ooh, ooh... can I guess what product?!  

FWIW... I have enough Kolossus left over from my xB, that I will be using it on my wife's car as well. Even if the other product becomes available. If I didn't have the leftover though, I would probably pick up the other stuff.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin got the right idea.




Silent Coat 4mm. I just spoke with the guy in charge of distribution, he said they have been sold out, but a container is currently on the water and should be available by Dec 30, give or take a few days for shipping. For those curious, it's not coming from China but from Germany. 

He's going to email me the current pricing structure, it will be available on amazon and ebay.


----------



## rton20s

With as quickly as things seem to change in the world of CLD, I wonder if what is currently "on a boat" will be identical to what your tested from the previous run.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

From what I've been told, the 2mm has changed slightly, but 4mm will be the same. He said that he had a real problem keeping 4mm in stock.

That said, he's willing to send me whatever I need to test, so if it seems it needs to be tested, I'll retest.


----------



## Lanson

That's awesome. Well, if he wants to vendor-up here, I'm sure it would be cheaper to run than eBay fees. 

We'll then have to do a cost analysis and see what comes out best for a given buck.

They may want to also research the ~25% rule, because their site shows 100%+ coverage in pics.


Also if they want, I'd be happy to correct the numerous mis-spellings and grammar breaks on their site, for a more polished, professional presentation.


----------



## T3mpest

Any word on the vibraflex yet? It's a PITA to use since it needs a heat gun for maximum effect, but it's definitely the best product I've ever used in terms of what it does.

My rear quater panels are nearly literally rock solid now. I went from being able to lean on them and have them bend in from my weight. Now I can literally shove in full force with my arms AND lean on it and they barely deflect. 

I had a friend do the old "knock" test and he commented "that actually hurt my hand!"


The stiffening being as dramatic as it is along with the dampening effect it has should make for a very good product I would think.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I have a list for next weekend, it'll be my first off weekend in a while. I'm actually working right now. I also plan to leave work early on my bday to work on this.


Fwiw I think vibraflex will work very well, but I'm not too sure about its heat resistance. Stp bomb would be my number 1 recommendation but it failed when peel n seal did.


----------



## T3mpest

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I have a list for next weekend, it'll be my first off weekend in a while. I'm actually working right now. I also plan to leave work early on my bday to work on this.
> 
> 
> Fwiw I think vibraflex will work very well, but I'm not too sure about its heat resistance. Stp bomb would be my number 1 recommendation but it failed when peel n seal did.


Looking at pics the STP heat bomb and vibraflex seem like similar products. 

I've melted vibraflex before, or at least come very close and know what it takes to do it according to the temp gauge on my heat gun. I found for best adhesion I heated the product just short of it's melting point and lightly heated the metal. As soon as i could see the cracks in the front of the product begin to melt together, i put some heat on the rear side and then heated the metal for a couple seconds. Then rolled it on, at that point it was very easy to fit to any curve and was rock solid once it cooled.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My limit is 250. If it fails at 250 degrees, I won't recommend it for a car. Most of the time the products don't actually melt by then, but the adhesive fails.


----------



## rxonmymind

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Fwiw, the difference in kolossus and this other product is not big enough to rip out installed kolossus. It's just worth a look when buying product in the future.
> 
> For reference, kolossus failed at 300 degrees, this product failed at 350. This product performed about 1-1.5db better at resonance.
> 
> It's enough that depending on availability, I'll be using a combo of this and sds instead of Kolossus and sds.



Does any part of a car get to 300?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

It's possible, but very unlikely and rare.

But, more importantly, the higher heat resistance is likely indicative of better damping performance at high temps, for instance central cali summers.


----------



## Rudeboy

T3mpest said:


> Any word on the vibraflex yet? It's a PITA to use since it needs a heat gun for maximum effect, but it's definitely the best product I've ever used in terms of what it does.
> 
> My rear quater panels are nearly literally rock solid now. I went from being able to lean on them and have them bend in from my weight. Now I can literally shove in full force with my arms AND lean on it and they barely deflect.
> 
> I had a friend do the old "knock" test and he commented "that actually hurt my hand!"
> 
> 
> The stiffening being as dramatic as it is along with the dampening effect it has should make for a very good product I would think.


Stiffening is what you want for SPL. There are better ways to accomplish stiffening in terms of performance and durability but most competitoin rules don't let you weld steel reinforcement to the panels. In a weird way, they set their rules in terms of traditional foil faced treatments, so asphalt, that doesn't rely on viscoelasticity, makes sense. SPL competitors aren't overly concerned with the long term, in my experience.

Panel flex and air leaks are the enemies of SPL. Viscoelastic treatments can also hurt SPL by converting vibration - which can become sound, into heat - which can't become sound. 

None of this is critical when noise reduction is the primary concern. Panel distortion isn't the problem. Intra panel resonance is and that can be controlled with reasonable quantities of a quality CLD that will last the lifetime of the vehicle.

Completely different applications and priorities. It's also important to remember that the heat tolerance of asphalt products decreases with time. The rubber compounds added to increase short term heat tolerance degrade with heat and time, easily dropping below 180°F - which can be reached in a dark vehicle parked in the sun.



rxonmymind said:


> Does any part of a car get to 300?


Exposure to high temperatures tells us two things. High temperature tolerance usually indicates the quality of the butyl adhesive. More importantly, for most polymers, exposure to higher temperatures for shorter periods of exposure indicates durability at lower temperatures for longer periods of exposure. Heating basically speeds up time.

Remember too that the further you get from room temperature, the less effective CLDs become. Very little damping capacity above 100°F. This isn't a major problem since vehicles are climate controlled but it does point out the silliness inherent in claims that CLDs are useful thermal radiant barriers.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Rudeboy said:


> .
> 
> 
> Exposure to high temperatures tells us two things. High temperature tolerance usually indicates the quality of the butyl adhesive. More importantly, for most polymers, exposure to higher temperatures for shorter periods of exposure indicates durability at lower temperatures for longer periods of exposure. Heating basically speeds up time.
> 
> Remember too that the further you get from room temperature, the less effective CLDs become. Very little damping capacity above 100°F. This isn't a major problem since vehicles are climate controlled but it does point out the silliness inherent in claims that CLDs are useful thermal radiant barriers.


I'm glad you mentioned this. I've said this multiple times and each time I've gotten pms or posts saying that's not how it works. But, that is the biggest reason I'm testing to 400.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Here is the repost of the Silent Coat results.

2mm





4mm




5mm multilayer


----------



## rxonmymind

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It's possible, but very unlikely and rare.
> 
> But, more importantly, the higher heat resistance is likely indicative of better damping performance at high temps, for instance central cali summers.


I thought this would be of interest for those who want to know a car surface temperature. Not the most authoritative "school" but it'll do 

Working in the sun? How HOT does your car's paint get?

As for internal temperature after surfing the internet and going to such respectable studies done by Stanford, University of Georgia and so forth in general cars inside will vary around 40-50 degrees from outside temperatures.


----------



## T3mpest

Looking at silent coats website it says the 5mm variant is a composite product, using bitumen. Curious how it will hold out in the heat testing vs the other products. I'd assume it'll still hold if the adhesive layer is butyl. It looks like a solid product and the test results reflect that.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

We're those studies taking internal air temps, or the temp of the metal on the inside? 

On my previous, white car, I measured 161 degrees on the inside of the roof metal, when it was about 102 outside.


----------



## Rudeboy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> We're those studies taking internal air temps, or the temp of the metal on the inside?
> 
> On my previous, white car, I measured 161 degrees on the inside of the roof metal, when it was about 102 outside.


That's correct - the sheet metal, where vibration dampers live, can get much hotter than the air in the passenger compartment. 161°F on a white car could easily be 180°F in a dark vehicle. I think that's the rule of thumb - white will keep you 20°F cooler than dark.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

T3mpest said:


> Looking at silent coats website it says the 5mm variant is a composite product, using bitumen. Curious how it will hold out in the heat testing vs the other products. I'd assume it'll still hold if the adhesive layer is butyl. It looks like a solid product and the test results reflect that.


It failed at 300 degrees. That's also where kolossus failed. That said, the 5mm smells like axle grease, and that smell has not gone away in the two years I've had the product. And 4mm performs so close that I wouldn't personally risk it on 5mm, as over time the bitumen's failing temp will drop. And interesting note, when 5mm failed, the whole product fell off. The bitumen layer is what contacts the metal. When bomb failed, the bitumen portion of the product fell with the constraining layer. The butyl stayed in place. This goes to show how bitumen is far less stable than butyl.



It, I'm not sure what happened, I'll re-send tonight.


----------



## TheJesus

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> My limit is 250. If it fails at 250 degrees, I won't recommend it for a car. Most of the time the products don't actually melt by then, but the adhesive fails.


Vibraflex is unlikely to have issues at that temperature except possibly on a roof, but even then applied correctly should be alright. The main appeal of it for me is floor usage because it's a pain to work with any other surface. It is #1 in SPL deadener choices because it's so ridiculously strong. Supposedly the Europeans take it and melt it in a bucket and then apply it on like a heavy paste (they call it liquid concrete). I think with that method it would never come back off.


----------



## camse2007

Any word noico?


----------



## 61ragtop

camse2007 said:


> Any word noico?



+1 and Wirez....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I don't have any wirez to test. I will be getting to testing tomorrow, it will likely be posted thurs since I'll be leaving work early to make my cake. All I can say about noico right now is that it didn't fall off at 400 degrees.


----------



## rxonmymind

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> We're those studies taking internal air temps, or the temp of the metal on the inside?
> 
> On my previous, white car, I measured 161 degrees on the inside of the roof metal, when it was about 102 outside.


The one done by Maguire was a simple laser pointer at the sheet metal of the car sitting outside.
The one done by U of G was inside. Stanford inside. Taking an average day of 90° summer weather a vehicle cabin temp can rise to130. Ouch. Leaving a window open a crack didn't do anything to dissipate the heat either. Link to U of G
http://www.tempsensornews.com/biomed/vehicle-temperature-table/


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

And that's after being insulated from direct heat by the headliner, door cards, etc. Imagine the inner roof metal temps here when it sometimes is 105 for a week straight.


----------



## Woosey

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dustin got the right idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silent Coat 4mm. I just spoke with the guy in charge of distribution, he said they have been sold out, but a container is currently on the water and should be available by Dec 30, give or take a few days for shipping. For those curious, it's not coming from China but from Germany.
> 
> He's going to email me the current pricing structure, it will be available on amazon and ebay.


Silent coat has always been a European made product.. In Latvia to be specific iirc.. 


Anyways... 300 Fahrenheit is what? 150 Celcius? 

If your car is standing in that much heat you have other things to worry about imho..


----------



## Woosey

rton20s said:


> With as quickly as things seem to change in the world of CLD, I wonder if what is currently "on a boat" will be identical to what your tested from the previous run.


They are pertty active with testing and optimizing their product line ime..

I think it will not be the same as the tested material.. The sheets we use have no smell whatsoever.. This is also confirmed by Hanatsu iirc


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I was told it was manufactured in Germany when I talked to the rep.

300f isn't likely but could happen. 200f is far more common though, especially in a black car, here in my area of the world. It regularly gets over 100f ambient here, and had gotten to 114 in the past. I've been in the desert when it was 120f. The thing about it is, a material that holds up to 250 degrees won't fail right away at 200 degrees. But it's more likely to fail over time with repeated exposures to 200 degrees than a product that holds up to say 350 degrees. 

The smell is only on the 5mm multilayer product, as confirmed by several people here. Like I said, it smells like a heavy duty bearing or axle grease. Coincidence or not, the base layer of the 5mm product is also the exact same color as the standard, deep red bearing grease.


----------



## HMR1975

Silent coat made in Russia by Shumoff, a brand owned by their distributor in the Baltic States. That is, the goods produced in Russia, but in the Baltic States distributor says that it is done in Europe. This is normal, all the sound insulation in the US are made in China, but to many it is written Made in the USA. Sorry for my English....
All CLD made in China or Russia....And Russian CLD is much cheaper and more efficient than the Chinese . An example of this STP, Noico and Shumoff , which is sold under the brand Silent coat

Just google it "Шумофф Микс Ф"


----------



## jcro_61

This took me forever to read but great post.

I am very interested in the Noico 80mil results.


----------



## MikWin

Hi there. I am happy to find a scientific method applied to testing sound deadening and temperature isolation of all the products out there. Can you direct me to your consolidated results of all your testing? I am in the process of building a custom restoration of a 52 Studebaker truck and I plan on installing a premo stereo system. I would like to know what products to use for the ceiling, floor, doors, firewall, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## Darth SQ

MikWin said:


> Hi there. I am happy to find a scientific method applied to testing sound deadening and temperature isolation of all the products out there. Can you direct me to your consolidated results of all your testing? I am in the process of building a custom restoration of a 52 Studebaker truck and I plan on installing a premo stereo system. I would like to know what products to use for the ceiling, floor, doors, firewall, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.


https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

Start there. 
No better place to understand all that there is when it comes to what you're asking about.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## MikWin

Thanks Bret, I sent an email to get started. What about heat isolation? I live in Las Vegas. Mike.


----------



## Rudeboy

HMR1975 said:


> Silent coat made in Russia by Shumoff, a brand owned by their distributor in the Baltic States. That is, the goods produced in Russia, but in the Baltic States distributor says that it is done in Europe. This is normal, *all the sound insulation in the US are made in China*, but to many it is written Made in the USA. Sorry for my English....
> All CLD made in China or Russia....And Russian CLD is much cheaper and more efficient than the Chinese . An example of this STP, Noico and Shumoff , which is sold under the brand Silent coat
> 
> Just google it "Шумофф Микс Ф"


That's false, not even close. "Some" would be more accurate and I think it's limited to discount electronic store brands. Love to know who is claiming made in USA for Chinese manufactured products?


----------



## Darth SQ

MikWin said:


> Thanks Bret, I sent an email to get started. What about heat isolation? I live in Las Vegas. Mike.


Melamine foam between the roof and the headliner.
If you go back about 15-20 pages in this thread you'll find where I applied it in my Honda Fit. The efficiency of my ac system went up significantly not to mention the reduction of noise from rainstorms. 
After that there's thermal window tint (Geo something just google it) that will reduce the radiant heat from glass significantly as well.
It's expensive but once you do the windshield with the other glass panels you will think you're living in L.A..


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## HMR1975

Rudeboy said:


> That's false, not even close. "Some" would be more accurate and I think it's limited to discount electronic store brands. Love to know who is claiming made in USA for Chinese manufactured products?


The United States has no real production of CLD, enough to buy in China sheets and cut and pack them in the United States.


----------



## jcro_61

HMR1975 said:


> The United States has no real production of CLD, enough to buy in China sheets and cut and pack them in the United States.


Any facts to back up this claim?


----------



## Lanson

MikWin said:


> Thanks Bret, I sent an email to get started. What about heat isolation? I live in Las Vegas. Mike.


Mike on the tint discussion, if you haven't already been made aware of them, Eco-Tint on Diablo is probably one of the best tinters in Vegas, and has some really, really good heat rejection film including for the windshield a few different types of clear films. 

And for the rest of the car, are you wanting to take everything out of the interior including the headliner, or what's the stop point to get the job done?


----------



## Weigel21

What about Knukoncptz, they seem to make their own wiring, wonder if they make their own deadening. Sound Deadener Showdown may well make his own products as well. And I wonder about Second Skin.


----------



## Rudeboy

HMR1975 said:


> The United States has no real production of CLD, enough to buy in China sheets and cut and pack them in the United States.


That is false. There are several manufacturers in the US.


----------



## Weigel21

Rudeboy said:


> That is false. There are several manufacturers in the US.


And you're one of them that makes his own, right? Seriously, I'm asking, as I "think" you do.


----------



## Rudeboy

Weigel21 said:


> What about Knukoncptz, they seem to make their own wiring, wonder if they make their own deadening. Sound Deadener Showdown may well make his own products as well. And I wonder about Second Skin.


None of us is a manufacturer. In my case at least, manufactured in the US. Before it is suggested that I'm just not seeing them pack Chinese product into my orders, I have been to the factory many times. They'd be putting on a hell of a show, if that was what they were doing. Remember that the assertion came from someone trying to rationalize shady practices elsewhere.


----------



## Weigel21

Ah, well given each of said brands performed towards the top of the list, but not the same, I'd probably be willing to bet the formula for the butyl are different and thus they are not all made in the same factory. 

Still, nice to hear you've visited the factory many times, even if you don't make the product in house.


----------



## Rudeboy

Weigel21 said:


> Ah, well given each of said brands performed towards the top of the list, but not the same, I'd probably be willing to bet the formula for the butyl are different and thus they are not all made in the same factory.
> 
> Still, nice to hear you've visited the factory many times, even if you don't make the product in house.


Trust me, it's much better to have it done by experts. It takes 4 people to man the lines when my product is being run. The equipment required is not trivial. Just mixing the adhesive is an amazing process in itself.

One manufacturer can run many different butyl formulations. They all have several "house" mixtures they can run out. I spent months working with my manufacturer testing and tweaking before I arrived at the final product. I know that all of the brands aren't coming out of the same factory - but they could.


----------



## HMR1975

Rudeboy said:


> Trust me, it's much better to have it done by experts. It takes 4 people to man the lines when my product is being run. The equipment required is not trivial. Just mixing the adhesive is an amazing process in itself.
> 
> One manufacturer can run many different butyl formulations. They all have several "house" mixtures they can run out. I spent months working with my manufacturer testing and tweaking before I arrived at the final product. I know that all of the brands aren't coming out of the same factory - but they could.



Yes, it is true, one producer can have dozens formulas оf mastic. But you like Hashmat - claim that the production goes to the United States, because you need to sell your very expensive product  No one who claims that the production goes to the United States - does not show this production line, it's just words .....

1) Buy China sheets - 1$/sqft
2) Cut and Repack
3) Say "Its very cool all American CLD"
4) Sell for 6$/sqft
5) Profit


----------



## seafish

HMR1975 said:


> Yes, it is true, one producer can have dozens formulas оf mastic. But you like Hashmat - claim that the production goes to the United States, because you need to sell your very expensive product  No one who claims that the production goes to the United States - does not show this production line, it's just words .....
> 
> 1) Buy China sheets - 1$/sqft
> 2) Repack
> 3) Say "Its very cool all American CLD"
> 4) Sell for 6$/sqft
> 5) Profit


Wow, only your third post and you are claiming that a longtime SQ professional and contributor who has ONLY helped car stereo enthusiasts spend less money and time to do an excellent job deadening their vehicle is LYING…

So I just need to ask, where the hell is YOUR skin in the game???


----------



## HMR1975

seafish said:


> Wow, only your third post and you are claiming that a longtime SQ professional and contributor who has ONLY helped car stereo enthusiasts spend less money and time to do an excellent job deadening their vehicle is LYING…
> 
> So I just need to ask, where the hell is YOUR skin in the game???


Chinese CLD can be very good, with high loss factor, and can simply be sealing for roof, depending on the manufacturer and the mastic formula . But it is still a Chinese product ..... There is nothing wrong with that, most of what's around - made in China. But some want to write "Made in USA"

And then it's marketing, it is often not very expensive products may have a high loss factor and expensive products may have a low loss factor . Because the price depends on marketing, not matter how good the material purchased in China.


----------



## seafish

HMR1975 said:


> Chinese CLD can be very good, with high loss factor, and can simply be sealing for roof, depending on the manufacturer and the mastic formula . But it is still a Chinese product ..... There is nothing wrong with that, most of what's around - made in China. But some want to write "Made in USA"
> 
> And then it's marketing, it is often not very expensive products may have a high loss factor and expensive products may have a low loss factor . Because the price depends on marketing, not matter how good the material purchased in China.


No one here has said that Chinese made CLD is inherently bad, only that different manufacturers make different quality products based on different specs or different price points. 

YOU are the one who is factually stating that there are NO USA made CLD products, but Rudeboy, who designs and sells CLD and has done so for MANY years, says that there is. I will stick with his assessment over yours until you start making sense.


----------



## HMR1975

seafish said:


> No one here has said that Chinese made CLD is inherently bad, only that different manufacturers make different quality products based on different specs or different price points.
> 
> YOU are the one who is factually stating that there are NO USA made CLD products, but Rudeboy, who designs and sells CLD and has done so for MANY years, says that there is. I will stick with his assessment over yours until you start making sense.


SDS - good CLD, ok. But any proofs about "Made in USA"? Or only words? If SDS many years tested CLD, what about PROOFED in USA loss factor testing (ASTM method E756)?

as example - scroll it

http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...496084102.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.72.RFIk1t

Folks, say me what is better - Knu Kolossus or SDS?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sds is better. Both in damping and in heat resistance. Kolossus is damn good, but sds edges it out in damping testing, and kills it in heat resistance. Kolossus IS 20% cheaper.

I'm not going to get into a debate over the merits and faults of astm 756-e testing, that was already done at the beginning of this thread.

I will say this. Don (rudeboy) and SDS, the company he runs, is the ONLY sound deadening company I have found that isn't lying in some way in their advertising.

EVERY OTHER COMPANY I have tested is either lying about the usefulness or benefits of cld, lying about the performance of their cld, or the specs of their cld, or more than one of the above. This includes the European and Russian brands that you previously listed.


----------



## #1BigMike

What is the best way to contact Don? I emailed and called a few weeks back and still have not heard back. I would like to purchase some items.


----------



## Rudeboy

HMR1975 said:


> SDS - good CLD, ok. But any proofs about "Made in USA"? Or only words? If SDS many years tested CLD, what about PROOFED in USA loss factor testing (ASTM method E756)?
> 
> as example - scroll it
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...496084102.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.72.RFIk1t
> 
> Folks, say me what is better - Knu Kolossus or SDS?


Right, so you demand an impossible to meet standard of proof for me while offering none yourself. Let's not forget that you created this account to explain why Russian manufactured products can be considered European because the manufacturers maintain addresses in the Baltics. Everything else flows from that. I'm happy to let readers judge relative credibility for themselves.


----------



## Rudeboy

#1BigMike said:


> What is the best way to contact Don? I emailed and called a few weeks back and still have not heard back. I would like to purchase some items.


Mike,

We've now communicated via PM and your e-mail has been responded to. I'm posting this in case anyone else has had trouble reaching me. I definitely fell behind on e-mails in the past month or so and realized that I had to grab this bull by the horns once and for all. I added a shopping cart to the site so anybody who knows what they need can get a quote and place an order themselves, leaving me more time to answer questions. I'll be caught up in the next week or so, but if I've missed anyone else, please feel free to resend and I'll take care of you. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thank you.


----------



## #1BigMike

Don,

Thank you for responding and answering all of my questions. Will be ordering soon.

Folks Don is a first class guy. Be sure to reach out to him, he knows his stuff.


----------



## Darth SQ

HMR1975 said:


> SDS - good CLD, ok. But any proofs about "Made in USA"? Or only words? If SDS many years tested CLD, what about PROOFED in USA loss factor testing (ASTM method E756)?
> 
> as example - scroll it
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...496084102.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.72.RFIk1t
> 
> Folks, say me what is better - Knu Kolossus or SDS?


Comrade, back up your claim with proof that SDS is not made in the USA or drop it.


Uncle Sam
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Rudeboy

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Comrade, back up your claim with proof that SDS is not made in the USA or drop it.
> 
> 
> Uncle Sam
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Pretty sure Comrade has an "e" at the end


----------



## Darth SQ

Rudeboy said:


> Pretty sure Comrade has an "e" at the end


Yes it does and I see where I didn't. 
I shoulda gone back and reread it. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Weigel21

Alright guys, quality material is quality material, "I" don't care too much about where it's "made", just that it performs properly and is made correctly and to proper standards. SDS, Second Skin, Knukonceptz, Dynamat, and even some others have been shown to perform and stand up to the test of time (if you will) by means of the heat testing. 

So, enough with the slander HMR1975, unless "YOU" can show solid proof of otherwise.


----------



## MikWin

Everything is already out of my truck cab. It is a custom restoration and currently the cab is stripped clean, but needs sandblasting then painting, and then I'll start but first I am trying to understand what to do and in what order. Until I learn differently my plan was to install CLD directly to the painted cab rear wall, roof, firewall, dash, and doors, and then CCF, and then MLV in that order. Right so far? If so - would the melamine foam be next for roof heat isolation, and then a headliner? And yes I'll get a heat reflective window tint for all glass when the truck is finished.


----------



## seafish

MikWin said:


> Everything is already out of my truck cab. It is a custom restoration and currently the cab is stripped clean, but needs sandblasting then painting, and then I'll start but first I am trying to understand what to do and in what order. Until I learn differently my plan was to install CLD directly to the painted cab rear wall, roof, firewall, dash, and doors, and then CCF, and then MLV in that order. Right so far? If so - would the melamine foam be next for roof heat isolation, and then a headliner? And yes I'll get a heat reflective window tint for all glass when the truck is finished.


That is all exactly right…you are going to love the diff that it all makes. That being said, while you need 100% coverage on the CCF and MLV, the CLD can be applied at about %30 coverage…after that it reaches a point of diminishing returns on money spent.


----------



## Darth SQ

MikWin said:


> Everything is already out of my truck cab. It is a custom restoration and currently the cab is stripped clean, but needs sandblasting then painting, and then I'll start but first I am trying to understand what to do and in what order. Until I learn differently my plan was to install CLD directly to the painted cab rear wall, roof, firewall, dash, and doors, and then CCF, and then MLV in that order. Right so far? If so - would the melamine foam be next for roof heat isolation, and then a headliner? And yes I'll get a heat reflective window tint for all glass when the truck is finished.


CLD the roof then glue the melamine to the CLD.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Schreplock

Wow nearly 1600 posts on 1 subject over 2 years and still more to come, it seems. @TooStubborn2Fail, Thanks for all the effort to date, been following this for some time(a year or better) and still in disbelief that you're testing new products...thanks again from the clovis, ca area.
I do have a question or two relating to using a spray/brush on coating to help reduce vibration vs. CLD tiles....like ALS HNR coating at 31ml....while I wouldn't just put it on 30% of the panels, it would be interesting to see how much vibration is reduced when this is applied to the floor, roof or door or anywhere else....then add minimal cld if needed...if the added reduction was substantial or maybe the liquids just dont do enough to reduce sound?..maybe you've experimented with boommat or any others during all your tests and you'd share, mat be i nees to scour the topic elsewhere, yet it seems applicable to this here discussion...I realize this may not come off your steel test pieces easily, so maybe that is why its not been viable to test ...yet being that it may help with blocking heat as well and the rating of 450° seems to exceed your test parameters, could it happen?
-
Is the Noico testing going to happen or did the whole Chinese, US, European, Russian battle put a damper on the cld showdown...or maybe it's just been to cold...and Christmas came up quick...anyhow. I'll sit back and watch....

I need to get some materials for a 67 fastback that is stripped to a bare skeleton inside and out and if painting something on is effective and can reduce heat at the same time I'm all for it, yet no rush as the current 40 degree highs are not going to be very good installation weather...

Looking forward to your updates and the group feedback


----------



## jcro_61

Schreplock said:


> -
> Is the Noico testing going to happen or did the whole Chinese, US, European, Russian battle put a damper on the cld showdown...or maybe it's just been to cold...and Christmas came up quick...anyhow. I'll sit back and watch....


I am very interested to see how this turns out.

I am waiting on the results before I order whatever CLD I decide to buy.


----------



## undone1

Schreplock said:


> Wow nearly 1600 posts on 1 subject over 2 years and still more to come, it seems. @TooStubborn2Fail, Thanks for all the effort to date, been following this for some time(a year or better) and still in disbelief that you're testing new products...thanks again from the clovis, ca area.
> I do have a question or two relating to using a spray/brush on coating to help reduce vibration vs. CLD tiles....like ALS HNR coating at 31ml....while I wouldn't just put it on 30% of the panels, it would be interesting to see how much vibration is reduced when this is applied to the floor, roof or door or anywhere else....then add minimal cld if needed...if the added reduction was substantial or maybe the liquids just dont do enough to reduce sound?..maybe you've experimented with boommat or any others during all your tests and you'd share, mat be i nees to scour the topic elsewhere, yet it seems applicable to this here discussion...I realize this may not come off your steel test pieces easily, so maybe that is why its not been viable to test ...yet being that it may help with blocking heat as well and the rating of 450° seems to exceed your test parameters, could it happen?
> -
> Is the Noico testing going to happen or did the whole Chinese, US, European, Russian battle put a damper on the cld showdown...or maybe it's just been to cold...and Christmas came up quick...anyhow. I'll sit back and watch....
> 
> I need to get some materials for a 67 fastback that is stripped to a bare skeleton inside and out and if painting something on is effective and can reduce heat at the same time I'm all for it, yet no rush as the current 40 degree highs are not going to be very good installation weather...
> 
> Looking forward to your updates and the group feedback


I have yet to see any of the sprayable sound deadeners come close to working as good as cld/mlv especially on floors /doors..


----------



## rton20s

All you need is some silicone and some BBs. Right Chris?

At least you can probably be sure it is "Made in the USA."


----------



## Second Skin

HMR1975 said:


> The United States has no real production of CLD, enough to buy in China sheets and cut and pack them in the United States.


Absolutely false, your statements are not accurate. Second Skin Products are proudly 100% American made for 15 years running!!!

There are also a few other brands that are manufactured in this great nation.

But a lot of cheap products with tar and asphalt fillers are produced both in the USA and outside of the USA, usually roofing material re branded to look like sound deadening material.

Always insist on a high quality American made butyl rubber sound deadening product, no matter what brand you choose!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Schreplock and jcro, the tests are still happening, but I've been laid up for the past 2 weeks with bronchitis. I usually don't cough up blood till Feb (no jk) but the early cold weather this year got me early. Hoping to be up and running soon as it's put a hold on literally everything I've been working on.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Schreplock and jcro, the tests are still happening, but I've been laid up for the past 2 weeks with bronchitis. I usually don't cough up blood till Feb (no jk) but the early cold weather this year got me early. Hoping to be up and running soon as it's put a hold on literally everything I've been working on.


And some of us are just relentless and keep dropping off more materials to test.


----------



## Rudeboy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Schreplock and jcro, the tests are still happening, but I've been laid up for the past 2 weeks with bronchitis. I usually don't cough up blood till Feb (no jk) but the early cold weather this year got me early. Hoping to be up and running soon as it's put a hold on literally everything I've been working on.


Hope it's not the fumes getting to you


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, I learned a long time ago to use a good respirator. 

No, just copd in the form of chronic bronchitis. It's usually not this bad, but it does still around for a few months a year. Gets really bad at the beginning, then kind of just lingers in the background. The combination of early cold and a lack of sleep lately is what got me this year.


And Dustin, that's ok, I have some material for you to cut out for me lol.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> And Dustin, that's ok, I have some material for you to cut out for me lol.


No problem. Whatever you need, I'm ready.


----------



## jcro_61

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Schreplock and jcro, the tests are still happening, but I've been laid up for the past 2 weeks with bronchitis. I usually don't cough up blood till Feb (no jk) but the early cold weather this year got me early. Hoping to be up and running soon as it's put a hold on literally everything I've been working on.


I mostly assumed it wouldn't occur until the holidays have passed.

The weather here took a nose dive into the typical winter temps. I can't really do anything until it warms back up :-(

The Noico stuff is extremely cheap and seeing your result with it holding up to heat is making me hope it actually works 1/2 decent.


----------



## T3mpest

MikWin said:


> Everything is already out of my truck cab. It is a custom restoration and currently the cab is stripped clean, but needs sandblasting then painting, and then I'll start but first I am trying to understand what to do and in what order. Until I learn differently my plan was to install CLD directly to the painted cab rear wall, roof, firewall, dash, and doors, and then CCF, and then MLV in that order. Right so far? If so - would the melamine foam be next for roof heat isolation, and then a headliner? And yes I'll get a heat reflective window tint for all glass when the truck is finished.


yeah, I would probably use some demin material with a reflective barrier as a heat shield on the headliner if your inclined to do that, like ultratouch. It's going to reflect heat just about as well for A LOT cheaper. Melamine foam isn't cheap if your getting the water resistant version and if your not, the denim material would at least be less sponge like.


----------



## Mahna Mahna

I picked up some boommat UC for the trunk area of my Camaro. It is worth installing or should I go with Second Skin LLP. I do have LLP under the seats on top of the SDS tiles.

I'm just wondering how efficient the boommat really is at reducing noise.

Thanks

https://www.designengineering.com//category/catalog/boom-mat-acoustical-products/under-carpet


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

If the specs are correct, it's a 1lb per square foot mass loaded bairrier. It "should" perform similar. Impossible to know without testing, but it's likely not a noticeable difference in a moving car.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Quick update.

An update was released for REW that seems to have fixed the problem that I had been having. So I will be pushing to get the testing completely as quickly as I reasonably can, and turning off any updates to prevent any further issues. In full transparency, aside from any other issues, this had been the biggest delay in testing.

I planned to test this weekend, but the noise floor was too high. My laptop is in effect dead, so I have to use my gaming/music computer and it needed to be cleaned, so the fans were running full time even at idle. So I did that instead this weekend, and replaced the radiator fan with a quieter one. Just fired it up now and its ready to test, so tests will be done as I can do them, ie weekends when no one is home and my wife can occupy our dog in the bedroom to keep the noise floor low.


----------



## jcro_61

I got a small pack of the Noico stuff delivered today. If it doesn't test well I will use it in less critical places and use the KnuKonceptz stuff in my doors...

Thank you again for all the testing you have done.


----------



## jcro_61

I was looking at the receipt and instructions that came with the Noico and it appears it is made by STP


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yeah, I think someone else mentioned that as well. The vast majority of STP products did pretty well, although bomb failed heat testing. But, Noico, survived to the 400 degree portion.


----------



## jordanwake

Such great work, can't wait to see/hear the results on the noico stuff


----------



## firebirdude

Thank you for all your testing TOO. Awesome thread that I stumbled upon while researching some MLV tactics.


jordanwake said:


> Such great work, can't wait to see/hear the results on the noico stuff


+1 to that. 72sqft just arrived for me.

Yeah I cheaped out with the Noico. But I'm not doing a show vehicle, by any means. I am kinda going overboard though. CLD, CCF, MLV. I just didn't feel 20% more effectiveness for 300% the price of brand name product was justified. 

Also be aware they sell two thicknesses. A 50mil and an 80mil. I ordered the 80mil. First impressions is that it's thinner than advertised and the aluminum backing is very thin. Yeah, that would to be expected when buying the cheapest of the cheap budget product. I'm not upset by it. We'll see how the tests turn out. 

My last suggestion would be to put all these results in one spot somewhere. It's impossible to find everything except going page by page, which SUCKS. Not sure if you can edit them all into the first post, as it's so old. Maybe host them all somewhere and get a mod to add the link into the first post? Or put it in your signature? Something.....


----------



## jordanwake

firebirdude said:


> Thank you for all your testing TOO. Awesome thread that I stumbled upon while researching some MLV tactics.
> +1 to that. 72sqft just arrived for me.
> 
> Yeah I cheaped out with the Noico. But I'm not doing a show vehicle, by any means. I am kinda going overboard though. CLD, CCF, MLV. I just didn't feel 20% more effectiveness for 300% the price of brand name product was justified.
> 
> Also be aware they sell two thicknesses. A 50mil and an 80mil. I ordered the 80mil. First impressions is that it's thinner than advertised and the aluminum backing is very thin. Yeah, that would to be expected when buying the cheapest of the cheap budget product. I'm not upset by it. We'll see how the tests turn out.
> 
> My last suggestion would be to put all these results in one spot somewhere. It's impossible to find everything except going page by page, which SUCKS. Not sure if you can edit them all into the first post, as it's so old. Maybe host them all somewhere and get a mod to add the link into the first post? Or put it in your signature? Something.....


I also just ordered 72 sq ft of Noico 80mil black. Got the shipping confirmation direct from STP and its definitely STP black magic so I guess STP and Noico are one and the same


----------



## undone1

firebirdude said:


> My last suggestion would be to put all these results in one spot somewhere. It's impossible to find everything except going page by page, which SUCKS. Not sure if you can edit them all into the first post, as it's so old. Maybe host them all somewhere and get a mod to add the link into the first post? Or put it in your signature? Something.....



Sorry..gotta say something about this..Pure laziness if you can't go through the thread and get the results...

You want Stubborn to come and install it for you also..??..:laugh:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There will be a complete report. As of now, I'm leaving work early the next 3 fridays, and taking a day off in a week and a half to work on finishing up testing. My plan is to have things finished by the gtg/meca comp in tulare on the 20th. Report won't be done, but I want all tests finished by then.


----------



## firebirdude

undone1 said:


> Sorry..gotta say something about this..Pure laziness if you can't go through the thread and get the results...
> 
> You want Stubborn to come and install it for you also..??..:laugh:


haha. Come on man. It's 65 pages long so far. And not all of us are running a T1 internet line into our house. Additionally, having them all side by side helps comparisons tremendously. But I get it. I should be appreciative for anything TOOSTUBBORN gives us. And I am. 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> There will be a complete report. As of now, I'm leaving work early the next 3 fridays, and taking a day off in a week and a half to work on finishing up testing. My plan is to have things finished by the gtg/meca comp in tulare on the 20th. Report won't be done, but I want all tests finished by then.


:thumbsup:epper:


----------



## Kyle5521

I called a couple local shops here in Washington to see what they carried and how much they charge. 

They first place sold Accumat and I asked him what they'd charge for 20 sq ft
He seemed blown away by that number. They sell it by the sheet of 24in by 28in for 30 BUCKS PER SHEET!! 

I told him that's crazy expensive and he said he doesn't make the prices. 

Than this kind dude wanted to give me some advise and said this is what he did on his car and loves it "Home Depot sells this stuff that not a lot of people know about and it's literally the same thing just a little thinner. Its called peel n seal"




Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## seafish

Kyle5521 said:


> I called a couple local shops here in Washington to see what they carried and how much they charge.
> 
> They first place sold Accumat and I asked him what they'd charge for 20 sq ft
> He seemed blown away by that number. They sell it by the sheet of 24in by 28in for 30 BUCKS PER SHEET!!
> 
> I told him that's crazy expensive and he said he doesn't make the prices.
> 
> Than this kind dude wanted to give me some advise and said this is what he did on his car and loves it "Home Depot sells this stuff that not a lot of people know about and it's literally the same thing just a little thinner. Its called peel n seal" Driven round in a dipped lancer


While I am all about shopping locally when possible, if similar quality items are NOT available, I turn to the internet. Do yourself a favor and order top quality deadening materials from Don at sounddeadenershowdown.com, or get a slightly better price per sq ft and similar performance by ordering the KnuKonceptz Kollossus CLD directly through Amazon


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That's just over $6 a square foot. But, keep in mind a sinister little thing that some (not all, but some) shops do. They only sell in small quantities. And small quantities always cost more per square foot. I remember paying $25 for four square feet of dynamat back in the day. 

Still not the most expensive I've seen. I have some stuff that's $60 a square foot.


----------



## Kyle5521

The dynamat wedge package which is 4 sq ft is $39 at the few cartoys near me. Walmart has it for $29 now. So those prices haven't changed!


Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## seafish

Kyle5521 said:


> The dynamat wedge package which is 4 sq ft is $39 at the few cartoys near me. Walmart has it for $29 now. So those prices haven't changed!
> 
> 
> Driven round in a dipped lancer


By all means, use whatever CLD material turns you on, but the ENTIRE point of this thread is to help you pick the better performing CLD…DynaMat does;nt even come close to performing as well as the Kolossus or sds CLD tiles. Any cost savings on dynamat will be negated up by needing to apply MUCH more square footage of the Dynamat to acheive the same panel deadening by using LESS of the better performing alternatives.


----------



## Kyle5521

seafish said:


> By all means, use whatever CLD material turns you on, but the ENTIRE point of this thread is to help you pick the better performing CLD…DynaMat does;nt even come close to performing as well as the Kolossus or sds CLD tiles. Any cost savings on dynamat will be negated up by needing to apply MUCH more square footage of the Dynamat to acheive the same panel deadening by using LESS of the better performing alternatives.



Yeah Einstein we know. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## Darth SQ

I'll be honest, I can't wait until the results page on all this is done.
I am seeing at least 5 threads a day on fb about sound deadening and it will be so nice to just post a link to sds and your results page TSTF and move on.


----------



## seafish

Kyle5521 said:


> Yeah Einstein we know.


so the point of your post below was… ???



Kyle5521 said:


> The dynamat wedge package which is 4 sq ft is $39 at the few cartoys near me. Walmart has it for $29 now. So those prices haven't changed!


----------



## T3mpest

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I'll be honest, I can't wait until the results page on all this is done.
> I am seeing at least 5 threads a day on fb about sound deadening and it will be so nice to just post a link to sds and your results page TSTF and move on.


Absolutely this! Especially since inevitably many replies are either for poor performing deadener, or for P+S, which I can't even consider a deadener lol.


----------



## Kyle5521

seafish said:


> so the point of your post below was… ???




Lol may I suggest that you read read just a few posts earlier. 

You seem so offended that someone would ever get dynamat lol. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## Kyle5521

seafish said:


> While I am all about shopping locally when possible, if similar quality items are NOT available, I turn to the internet. Do yourself a favor and order top quality deadening materials from Don at sounddeadenershowdown.com, or get a slightly better price per sq ft and similar performance by ordering the KnuKonceptz Kollossus CLD directly through Amazon



I much prefer to shop locally and stimulate the local economy the little bit I can. 

You know, this thread has been here for a long time, but thanks for recapping lol turbo has spent so much of his time slaving to provide all this information. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I'll be honest, I can't wait until the results page on all this is done.
> I am seeing at least 5 threads a day on fb about sound deadening and it will be so nice to just post a link to sds and your results page TSTF and move on.


Bwahaha! You really think having official results is going to make ANY difference?


----------



## Alrojoca

I'd say avoid the ones that measure above 90 Db, Dynamat Xtreme is around 88.5 db just 2- 2.5b above (or below in performance) from Knu Kol and SDS, any Db will help, although saying you have to double material to gain an extra Db or 2 may not be correct. By the time you add closed cell foam and MLV the difference may even up reducing noise and resonace.

The stp's gold and silver seemed to be very good ( clean butyl easy to deal with) around 86.5-88 db and the bomb number one at 83 db or less beating the best by 2.5-3.5 Db, crude oil based and no longer available.

And if you can get a good deal with SS d pro around 89.5-89.8 db why not? 

unless I'm missing something the mid pack starts from Knu res although a decent gap in lower performance than SS pro being better. A 3db gap from other brands to start the mid pack like stinger rd kill and a few names in that mid range until a big gap in lower performance roofing patch material all the way to the bottom with other brands with peel and seal.

I'm hopping to see newer improved versions of some brands already tested, and better deals to compete also besides new brands or products made by some of the companies already tested.

Of course I may be off a Db here and there, or some performance order may be off but not by much I hope.

And yes I support 100% local purchase of products when possible, in big towns or cities, money spent locally supports your own local job keeping the dollars in the area you live, believe or not.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Bwahaha! You really think having official results is going to make ANY difference?


The difference it will make is it will let me drop the mic and walk away.
After that I don't care if they still go to Home Depot. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Bret, you just gave me an excellent idea for the conclusion page of the testing report.


----------



## Kyle5521

seafish said:


> While I am all about shopping locally when possible, if similar quality items are NOT available, I turn to the internet. Do yourself a favor and order top quality deadening materials from Don at sounddeadenershowdown.com, or get a slightly better price per sq ft and similar performance by ordering the KnuKonceptz Kollossus CLD directly through Amazon



You shop locally when possible? Lol 

Do yourself a favor and realize dynamat has always been and will probable always be a staple in the audio industry. 

Knu isn't top quality based on the data. 





Alrojoca said:


> I'd say avoid the ones that measure above 90 Db, Dynamat Xtreme is around 88.5 db just 2- 2.5b above (or below in performance) from Knu Kol and SDS, any Db will help, although saying you have to double material to gain an extra Db or 2 may not be correct. By the time you add closed cell foam and MLV the difference may even up reducing noise and resonace.
> 
> 
> 
> The stp's gold and silver seemed to be very good ( clean butyl easy to deal with) around 86.5-88 db and the bomb number one at 83 db or less beating the best by 2.5-3.5 Db, crude oil based and no longer available.
> 
> 
> 
> And if you can get a good deal with SS d pro around 89.5-89.8 db why not?
> 
> 
> 
> unless I'm missing something the mid pack starts from Knu res although a decent gap in lower performance than SS pro being better. A 3db gap from other brands to start the mid pack like stinger rd kill and a few names in that mid range until a big gap in lower performance roofing patch material all the way to the bottom with other brands with peel and seal.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hopping to see newer improved versions of some brands already tested, and better deals to compete also besides new brands or products made by some of the companies already tested.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I may be off a Db here and there, or some performance order may be off but not by much I hope.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes I support 100% local purchase of products when possible, in big towns or cities, money spent locally supports your own local job keeping the dollars in the area you live, believe or not.



Alrojoca, How much are the STP's?

And thank you very much. Being a business owner myself I can see for myself first hand really how the backbones of a local economy work. 
Plus it build relationships and pretty soon you can get favors and deals from those friends and who knows they might even order you certain things that you desire that are only online. 



Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Bret, you just gave me an excellent idea for the conclusion page of the testing report.


:thumbsup:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Kyle5521 said:


> You shop locally when possible? Lol
> 
> Do yourself a favor and realize dynamat has always been and will probable always be a staple in the audio industry.
> 
> Knu isn't top quality based on the data.


What data are you referencing that shows that knu isn't top quality?

Dynamat is a staple by name only. It is middle of the road in terms of performance. And given its costs vs other products that perform better, it's only attribute that makes it worth buying is that it is extremely light for its performance. If performance is more important than weight, then it has no place in an install.


----------



## Alrojoca

Kyle5521 said:


> You shop locally when possible?
> 
> 
> Alrojoca, How much are the STP's?
> 
> And thank you very much. Being a business owner myself I can see for myself first hand really how the backbones of a local economy work.
> Plus it build relationships and pretty soon you can get favors and deals from those friends and who knows they might even order you certain things that you desire that are only online.
> 
> 
> 
> Driven round in a dipped lancer


if you do a google search, you may find a place that sells it for EDIT : $80 per 21 square foot or $3.80 a sf for the stp silver only.

Pm me if you don't find it. I think the gold is better, being the same as the black or black magic, those may be harder to find or discontinued.

Soundsimplicity does a lot of quality installs with the stp silver.

Yes I'm a small business owner, in an industry that has suffered a lot due to new technology, I try do different things to survive and make a few bucks here and there when I can. 

I encourage anyone on the forum to go to their local Best Buy and price match rather than buying from Amazon, non factory warranty or non authorized re sellers, a lot of people don't realize that almost anything you get from amazon will collect sales tax also, meaning no savings if price matched locally, I do the same with car dealers buying parts locally when I can most of the time they match or offer a decent price, sometimes I may pay more but then, it helps them to keep the doors open, that money comes back, keeps people employed that later on they will spend part of their salary locally, shopping, eating out, etc it's a cylce that is good to practice whenever is possible

But sometimes is hard to beat deals here on the forum, and doing trades here is also good for the site and the members.


----------



## MANUTD

I have DX in my Car. Went with 100% coverage in the rear but might add a few SDS tiles to help thing out before the sub goes in.

Just read all 65 pages...great info and dedication...no my head and eyes hurt with all the new knowledge


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> What data are you referencing that shows that knu isn't top quality?
> 
> Dynamat is a staple by name only. It is middle of the road in terms of performance. And given its costs vs other products that perform better, it's only attribute that makes it worth buying is that it is extremely light for its performance. If performance is more important than weight, then it has no place in an install.


But, but but... It's Dynamat! The Kleenex of CLDs. 

Oh, and update your sig.


----------



## Kyle5521

rton20s said:


> But, but but... It's Dynamat! The Kleenex of CLDs.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and update your sig.



Your exactly right!!! And boy am I refreshed after a soft supple Kleenex if I do say so myself. 

This dudes gettin bent over a story I told. 

Stop Stressing out

Update why. My sig is a joke someone said.


Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## rton20s

Kyle5521 said:


> Your exactly right!!! And boy am I refreshed after a soft supple Kleenex if I do say so myself.
> 
> This dudes gettin bent over a story I told.
> 
> Stop Stressing out
> 
> Update why. My sig is a joke someone said.
> 
> 
> Driven round in a dipped lancer


I quoted a specific post.


----------



## lynchknot

After 66 pages is the jury still out on this? If a conclusion has been made will someone direct me to the page it's on?


----------



## Weigel21

Did you read all 66 pages?

Testing isn't complete, so until all testing is done, I'd say the jury is still out on it, but of the testing done thus far, it has been posted more than once in the thread as to what is the best product (SDS tiles) and who the value leader is (Knukonceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus). One of the STP products actually performed better in damping, but failed the heat test, however, that particular product didn't look to be readily available here in the States. 

Noico hasn't been tested yet (I don't think) but people have high hopes that it performs fairly well and becomes the new value leader.


----------



## Kyle5521

lol nothing was ever about me to begin with. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## lynchknot

Weigel21 said:


> Did you read all 66 pages?


hehe, no. That's why I was asking. I seem to be wanting to take shortcuts everywhere.

I don't know if anyone has seen this "in-car" test of some butyl foil on this page: Butyl rubber aluminum foil  I guess it doesn't smell and it doesn't taste too bad either.



> Technical specifications
> Mechanical loss factor	more than 0.25
> Appearance	Pure aluminum ,no surface rupture, cracking
> Thickness	1.6mm ; 1.8mm ; 2.1 mm-----(Accept OEM requirment)
> Size	460mm X 810mm ( Accept OEM requirement )
> Foil thickness	0.1 mm
> Foil color	Silver ; Blue ; Golden
> Butyl color	Black ; White ; Grey
> Density	1.65g/cm3
> Evaporation	≤ 1.5%
> Flammability	75~80 millimeters / minute
> Working temperature range	-45°C to +170°C
> Initial adhesion	≥21 Bolus
> Tensile Strength	≥ 21 K.Pa
> Shear strength	≥ 0.5 MPa
> Smell	Tasteless
> Water resistance	does not absorb moisture
> Heat mobility	≤ 10 mm (vertical and horizontal)
> Low-temperature(-30 °C ) impact resistance	Sheet no peeling, no cracks
> Stop Noise test in car	Install it in 5 seat car stope noise rate ≥ 9.5 dB
> Heat insulation test in car	Install it in 5 seat car heat insulation rate ≥ 88%
> Vibration -20 ≥ 0.045;
> 
> -10 ≥ 0.05;
> 
> 0 ≥ 0.08;
> 
> 2.0mm 10 ≥ 0.12;
> 
> 20 ≥ 0.15;
> 
> 30 ≥ 0.13;
> 
> 40 ≥ 0.065;
> 
> 60 ≥ 0.045


----------



## Lanson

And it is *"strcky"*



lynchknot said:


> hehe, no. That's why I was asking. I seem to be wanting to take shortcuts everywhere.
> 
> I don't know if anyone has seen this "in-car" test of some butyl foil on this page: Butyl rubber aluminum foil  I guess it doesn't smell and it doesn't taste too bad either.


----------



## coolassloserp

First off I want to thank OP for doing all this. Reading through the threads he seems quite busy with work.

I am still waiting for the results of the Noico stuff. I recently bought the Noico 80-mil pack and plan to sound deaden the car this weekend. I'll be doing my trunk and doors. Really hoping they are bang for buck yielding some acceptable results rather than a total waste of time..

Thanks!


----------



## jcro_61

I read all 66 pages and it was worth it. Don't be lazy. Read the thread.


----------



## MANUTD

Just wondering if this stuff any good or is there a better product.

Car Insulation - Lightweight Heat and Sound Insulation


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That stuff is a thermal barrier, it's not for vibration control, and if they say it is, they are lying. It may reduce the temps in the car, but it's not going to make a noticeable difference in noise.


----------



## MANUTD

Thanks...I was a little skeptical when they mentioned "sound deadener" in their description.


We supply the lightest and most effective thermal sound deadening insulation in the world! Car Insulation makes your interior quiet, comfortable, and is superior to the competition. It is made in the USA and is a thermal barrier, *sound deadener*, sound dampener, and a protective moisture barrier. You will not find another product that offers all of the above.


----------



## rxonmymind

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> The difference it will make is it will let me drop the mic and walk away.
> After that I don't care if they still go to Home Depot.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


PERFECT.


----------



## Rudeboy

MANUTD said:


> Thanks...I was a little skeptical when they mentioned "sound deadener" in their description.
> 
> 
> We supply the lightest and most effective thermal sound deadening insulation in the world! Car Insulation makes your interior quiet, comfortable, and is superior to the competition. It is made in the USA and is a thermal barrier, *sound deadener*, sound dampener, and a protective moisture barrier. You will not find another product that offers all of the above.


They may even believe what they are saying. I love that they list sound deadener and sound damping as separate features. Very similar to foil faced CLDs being touted as radiant heat barriers. Wishful thinking at best. 

Vibration damping, acoustic barriers, radiant heat barriers and thermal insulation all require different approaches. Thermal insulation and sound absorption can overlap, but that's it. Try to combine any of the other treatments and you'll lose performance in one area or both. Physics is a *****!


----------



## MANUTD

Rudeboy said:


> They may even believe what they are saying. I love that they list sound deadener and sound damping as separate features. Very similar to foil faced CLDs being touted as radiant heat barriers. Wishful thinking at best.
> 
> Vibration damping, acoustic barriers, radiant heat barriers and thermal insulation all require different approaches. Thermal insulation and sound absorption can overlap, but that's it. Try to combine any of the other treatments and you'll lose performance in one area or both. Physics is a *****!


See....this is why I joined....thanks


----------



## trik69

Great work guys, so glad that I took the time to read all 67 pages on this, I learned a lot. My question is and I don't think that I saw it answered is has there been any testing on Hushmat or can someone give feedback on it?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Need to check my remaining products, but I believe I have some to test.


----------



## Kyle5521

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Beckerson1, I can test that if you'd like. I can also test adding it to a current CLD aluminum layer. I actually bought a 16mil thick aluminum sheet, that I plan to epoxy to alphadamp after measuring alphadamp by itself, to see what that does.



Pardon me if I missed it but did you ever get around to doing this?

I'm also interested in laying aluminum foil take down over an entire area such as the trunk of it would add any benefit. 



Driven round in a dipped lancer


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I haven't gotten to that yet. Because of the risk of messing up the metal panel, those tests have to be last. It is still on the agenda.


----------



## Anamolydetected

I'd like to bring up a subject that was brought up early on (maybe between page 3-6?)..yes I read this entire thread!

I couldn't help but continue to wonder for the 3-4hrs of reading... Isn't it probable that without allowing each CLD tested to "cure" or "fully adhere" to mfg specifications that the results are not accurate? 

If the butyl does not fully adhere to the surface, wouldn't it be likely that the CLD in question was not at it's maximum resonant frequency deadening potential? 

As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, not all butyl's are created equal... So, what if the variance in the adhesion at time of testing is actually a large factor in performance?? 

I don't mean to undermine your efforts in any way, I love the initiative and gumption!

Hopefully the adhesion time is a negligible factor in the results 

Btw, a few months of no new test results..hope you are well and recovered from the bronchitis TS2F.

Noico tested yet? I wonder how many virtual humans are waiting for the results..lol

I wish someone would donate you some: 
1)Sky High Car Audio 120MIL (claimed 6mil foil and I'm often sky high..sounds good. lol Plus, curious if the 120mils add up to anything amazing)
2)DC Deadener Mat (they claim to use top quality butyl and 6mil foil)
3)Shok mat (cuz don't u wonder about white butyl!? Maybe it's magical!?!)

We should put together a petition for free samples mailed to you.. plenty of forum members and FB'rs out there wish for any/all remaining companies you haven't tested to get done  Immediately, if not sooner. hahaha. -IF they really believe in their products.."STAND UP and show it" 

Lastly, rock on!


----------



## Second Skin

Anamolydetected said:


> If the butyl does not fully adhere to the surface, wouldn't it be likely that the CLD in question was not at it's maximum resonant frequency deadening potential?


You are correct that it is very important to adhere the butyl to the surface it is to be used on.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Anamolydetected said:


> I'd like to bring up a subject that was brought up early on (maybe between page 3-6?)..yes I read this entire thread!
> 
> I couldn't help but continue to wonder for the 3-4hrs of reading... Isn't it probable that without allowing each CLD tested to "cure" or "fully adhere" to mfg specifications that the results are not accurate?
> 
> If the butyl does not fully adhere to the surface, wouldn't it be likely that the CLD in question was not at it's maximum resonant frequency deadening potential?
> 
> As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, not all butyl's are created equal... So, what if the variance in the adhesion at time of testing is actually a large factor in performance??
> 
> I don't mean to undermine your efforts in any way, I love the initiative and gumption!
> 
> Hopefully the adhesion time is a negligible factor in the results
> 
> I have actually tested this, and found the change to be outside of the tolerances of this testing. There is a difference, but its not going to be enough to change the results in any meaningful way.
> 
> That said, if I was rich, I would have a much better testing set up and that would be tested for every product as well. I just can't see a way to test that in any reasonable time, and I'm already on the record saying that this has taken longer than I wanted it to. But, it would take 5 figures to build a set of test rigs accurate enough to test this in a timely manner. With the amount of different products I have, it would take 5+ years to wait 5-7 days for the adhesive to come to full strength for every test.
> 
> Btw, a few months of no new test results..hope you are well and recovered from the bronchitis TS2F.
> 
> Noico tested yet? I wonder how many virtual humans are waiting for the results..lol
> 
> Thank you, and yes I am now recovered from being sick. The biggest delay that I've had for the last year was a combination of sound card issues, and just flat out noise. There have been a few other more intense things like family surgeries and sickness, but those are the main things. The sound card issue has just recently been resolved. When I started this testing, I had a dedicated room that I could go in and shut everything off, and do multiple tests in a row. Due to a housing dispute with a family member (I'm going to leave it at that for now), I no longer have access to a dedicated room. That means all tests must be done in the living room. That means my wife has to be here to occupy our dog in the room, my mom has to be here to occupy her dog in her room, tests have to be run while the refrigerator isn't running, and I have to let our wall clock run down to get the noise floor as low as it was in the room. I also have to crank the heat or ac, depending on what time of year it is, and unfortunately, that gets quite expensive really quickly, due to the huge amount of window space this house has. Keeping the ac at 77 degrees (the temp testing is done at) would bring a $400 bill with it. Thank you centex homes.
> 
> I wish someone would donate you some:
> 1)Sky High Car Audio 120MIL (claimed 6mil foil and I'm often sky high..sounds good. lol Plus, curious if the 120mils add up to anything amazing)
> 2)DC Deadener Mat (they claim to use top quality butyl and 6mil foil)
> 3)Shok mat (cuz don't u wonder about white butyl!? Maybe it's magical!?!)
> 
> ^This is one of the biggest killing factors in this process, is that new companies are coming out faster than I can keep track of. All three of those are new to me. I will say that I have tested a product with light grey butyl, and it was not magical. Although I doubt color had anything to do with that.
> 
> We should put together a petition for free samples mailed to you.. plenty of forum members and FB'rs out there wish for any/all remaining companies you haven't tested to get done  Immediately, if not sooner. hahaha. -IF they really believe in their products.."STAND UP and show it"
> 
> I'm going to repeat here, that many many people and a few companies have even donated products, along with funds in some cases, and I am highly and forever appreciative of this. Without that, I just would not have had the funds to test the amount of products I have, and I would not have learned as much as I have.
> 
> Lastly, rock on!


^Thanks


----------



## Anamolydetected

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^Thanks
> I have actually tested this, and found the change to be outside of the tolerances of this testing. There is a difference, but its not going to be enough to change the results in any meaningful way.


Right on. I will take your word for it since it doesn't seem anyone on the planet has done what you are doing. 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ...it would take 5 figures to Build a set of test rigs accurate enough to test this in a timely manner. With the amount of different products I have, it would take 5+ years to wait 5-7 days for the adhesive to come to full strength for every test.


I hear that. I wish there was an easy way to build something that would work for this testing that has a removable back plate. That way you could have say 10-14 steel backplates waiting the 5-7 days for full adhesion...and then run tests 2 per day.. lol -In an ideal world right!?



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ...Keeping the ac at 77 degrees (the temp testing is done at) would bring a $400 bill with it. Thank you centex homes.


Yeah, the "family related housing dispute"...boy does that sound like an ugly can of worms! -How dare said relative delay such important research!! Said person must have no appreciation for SQ.. I throw etherical rotten tomatoes at him/her! 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^This is one of the biggest killing factors in this process, is that new companies are coming out faster than I can keep track of. All three of those are new to me. I will say that I have tested a product with light grey butyl, and it was not magical. Although I doubt color had anything to do with that.


If the character covered in rotten tomatoes would go get a life... I'm sure you could manage to keep up! Just think, an elite product may come and go before you get the pleasure of announcing how kick ass it is/was (probably bolstering it's sales). -btw, I wonder if murdermat mdk will ever re-appear.

What a sad world {Walks off into the sunset throwing rotten tomatoes at any other person who happens to look like they deserve it}...

{mumbles to himself.. Kno Knoise it is}

Thanks again for all the hard work TS2F!


----------



## jb4674

42 pages and no results yet??????

Did he ever test Hushmat or Soundskins?


----------



## Anamolydetected

jb4674 said:


> 42 pages and no results yet??????
> 
> Did he ever test Hushmat or Soundskins?


The results are all throughout the 42 pages. They have also been summarized like 15-20x throughout, lol. Updating the OP would probably save that question from being asked/answered another 10-20x.

I'll answer anyway though. Yeah, Hushmat and Soundskins were both tested. From what I gathered, in the dampening tests Hushmat was below average, Soundskin's Damplifier pro was a bit better and both were somewhat substantially beat out by SDS and Kno Knoise. 

-And I think we were waiting for confirmation that 4mm silent coat was the current reigning champion? -although it appears to be no longer available


----------



## Weigel21

No results? Have you not seen the numerous flow charts for the many products he's tested? They've been discussed numerous times. Those are results, you just have to compare them for yourself to see which works better/best or listen to everyone who keep repeating the same thing about SDS and Kno Knoise. 

Testing hasn't been completed yet with all the products he has and until such, he will not make a new thread with all the results together for easier viewing.


----------



## Darth SQ

Just to be clear TSTF, no one is expecting you to continue testing ad infinitum.
You did a ton of work already and that's so much more than anyone else has ever attempted including the companies that have a vested interest in sales.
I suggest you wrap it up as soon as you can, get the summary posted, and move on with life. 
If someone wants to pick up where you left off then maybe you could help them set up their test rig but in all seriousness, maybe it's time to put a fork in this byoch and move on.


----------



## seafish

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Just to be clear TSTF, no one is expecting you to continue testing ad infinitum.
> You did a ton of work already and that's so much more than anyone else has ever attempted including the companies that have a vested interest in sales.
> I suggest you wrap it up as soon as you can, get the summary posted, and move on with life.
> If someone wants to pick up where you left off then maybe you could help them set up their test rig but in all seriousness, maybe it's time to put a fork in this byoch and move on.


THIS exactly…or maybe you should go into business selling sound deadening products like SDS did…LOL


----------



## Anamolydetected

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Just to be clear TSTF, no one is expecting you to continue testing ad infinitum.
> You did a ton of work already and that's so much more than anyone else has ever attempted including the companies that have a vested interest in sales.
> I suggest you wrap it up as soon as you can, get the summary posted, and move on with life.
> If someone wants to pick up where you left off then maybe you could help them set up their test rig but in all seriousness, maybe it's time to put a fork in this byoch and move on.


+1 I'm really happy to be making an informed decision based upon the hard work you did TS2F


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hey guys,

Just to be clear, I want to finish this for myself more than anything else. So I don't want anyone to think I'm being pressured into anything that I don't actually want to do. I've actually gotten a lot better at not letting things get to me than I used to. If there's one thing this housing issue has taught me, its to not let the stress get to me and let it go. No Frozen memes Dustin. lol.

Like I said before, if I was rich, like lottery rich, I would start from scratch, with a completely isolated and automated testing rig (or a couple). And maybe rent a building to house it. I'm just that interested in it. Something that would let me run tests constantly, testing at a wide range a temps, and testing right after install and after a week. This is actually something I've already designed (aside from the computer program to run it), its just much more of an investment than I can make. Like I said earlier, 5 figures, sort of like a Klippel for CLD.


Brett, I'll pm you tomorrow. I'm thinking tomorrow, I'll compile a short summary, then have you kill the thread, for now, that way the current results are on the last page. And I'll let you know when the full results are ready, so we can figure out a way to post the whole thing. Like I said, nothing is really getting to me, but I know quite a few other people have told me it bugs them when people constantly bug for results. 

Tonight I'll leave it with this, since its bed time.

My current top three, based entirely on performance and heat testing, in the order I would put them.


1st - Sound Deadener Showdown CLD Tiles
2nd - Silent Coat 4mm
3rd - KnoKonceptz Kolossus

With the products I have left to test, I don't see SDS CLD Tiles being knocked off top spot. In fact, its been top spot since it was first tested. With heat testing mostly finished, Kolossus got knocked down a notch to Silent Coat 4mm. But neither can come close to matching SDS's heat tolerance, and that is a big deal for me. As I've said before, I firmly believe that products that withstand a wider range of temperatures, will also damp vibrations better at a wider range a temperatures. I can't objectively prove it without building a far more expensive test rig, but all the information available points to that being true. Living somewhere where temps get to 110F in the summer, that is important to me.


As I said in the first post, I would be using the top testing overall product, regardless of price, in my personal builds. In a few weeks, I will be installing some SDS in my personal (well my wife's) car, and will be taking before and after measurements. 

Price wise, the top three breakdown as following. I've excluded bulk packs, and limited amounts to 35 square feet. In a normal install, more than that shouldn't be needed.

1 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus - $5.42-$4 per square foot, for normal amounts. 
2 - SDS CLD Tiles - $6.36-$5.40 per square foot, for normal amounts.
3 - Silent Coat 4mm - $5.47 per square foot*

I've listed Silent Coat as third, because they only seem to have one price point at this time, and in order to do a whole car, their price point is higher than SDS. Buying 16.6 square feet of SDS gets you to $5.40 per square foot, where 15.36 square feet of Silent Coat is $5.47. Anything over that is still $5.47.

The pro's of SDS is direct customer service from the owner and original CLD tester, along with a killer no frills website that is the only sound deadening website that I have found from any company not to have at least one lie, stretch of the truth, or statement of ignorance, along with the best overall product when considering the requirements of a CLD designed for car use. It's also the lightest of the top 3 products, by at least 25%. The only con I can come up with is price, but as far as I'm personally concerned the price is justified. As said earlier, this is what I'll personally be using. (Previously, I would have listed difficulty in ordering as a con as well, as some people had reported issues, but, now that SDS has a fully working cart system implemented, that is a non issue anymore) 

The pro's of Silent Coat 4mm are slightly better damping (and by slight I mean right at the edge of this test's tolerance). The cons are again, price, as well as a lower heat tolerance level, highest weight of the top 3, and a weak constraining layer. Some might remember, that Silent Coat is the product I had issues with using the stamper to cut out, as the stress caused the constraining layer to tear on the edges. This is the only product I've had do this. I would not use this in an area where heavy rubbing or sliding might take place.

The pro for Kolossus is price. Its the lowest priced, high performing product, performing just under SDS in damping (performing below SDS by right at the tolerances of the testing). The cons, well, slightly less damping performance, a flammable plastic coating on the aluminum the second highest weight of the top 3, and significantly less heat stability. I don't think the product performs low enough in heat testing to fall off, but I do think SDS would perform measurably better in summer conditions. Likewise, I don't think the flammable coating is going to cause an issue (its also not the only product that has this), but it does need to be mentioned.



Edited to include weight comparisons for those who value that info.


----------



## Hanatsu

Funny thing is, I was almost bullied by people in Sweden for promoting SC. Dymamat was 10 times better they said, they would only use "the real stuff".

Unbiased scientific testing such as yours are awesome for this reason alone 


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The thing is, dynamat is really a great product. There isn't anything anywhere close to its performance to weight ratio for weight weenies. It's just not the best performer if you don't care about weight. At lot of people are gonna have a hard time with that.

That's something else I forgot to add above is weight comparisons, I'll edit that now.


----------



## Darth SQ

No problem.
I'll look for it later tonight when I get home.


----------



## Hanatsu

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The thing is, dynamat is really a great product. There isn't anything anywhere close to its performance to weight ratio for weight weenies. It's just not the best performer if you don't care about weight. At lot of people are gonna have a hard time with that.
> 
> That's something else I forgot to add above is weight comparisons, I'll edit that now.


SC is 1/4th-1/5th of the price of Dynamat here in Sweden. One guy told me I need 3 layers of 4mm SC to attain the same results as with some 2mm dynamat a few years back. "So you will only load your car down with weight and the cost is about the same for the amount of damping you get as you need to apply more SC" - something like that 

I can imagine the "weight efficiency ratio" is good with Dynamat.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ouch. Yeah, I need to look into that as best as possible, I didn't think about tariffs for other countries at all yet. I think they are about the same price here, so I don't think we get hit as hard on imported products.


----------



## firebirdude

Still following man. Looking forward to the wrap up.:ears:


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If there's one thing this housing issue has taught me, its to not let the stress get to me and let it go. No Frozen memes Dustin. lol.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol. I actually hadn't seen that one yet.


----------



## jb4674

Anamolydetected said:


> The results are all throughout the 42 pages. They have also been summarized like 15-20x throughout, lol. Updating the OP would probably save that question from being asked/answered another 10-20x.
> 
> I'll answer anyway though. Yeah, Hushmat and Soundskins were both tested. From what I gathered, in the dampening tests Hushmat was below average, Soundskin's Damplifier pro was a bit better and both were somewhat substantially beat out by SDS and Kno Knoise.
> 
> -And I think we were waiting for confirmation that 4mm silent coat was the current reigning champion? -although it appears to be no longer available


1. You're confusing Soundskins with Second Skin.
2. This is to the OP: Why not put a table with the results on the first post so people don't have to ask the same question again and again???


----------



## jb4674

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Just to be clear TSTF, no one is expecting you to continue testing ad infinitum.
> You did a ton of work already and that's so much more than anyone else has ever attempted including the companies that have a vested interest in sales.
> I suggest you wrap it up as soon as you can, get the summary posted, and move on with life.
> If someone wants to pick up where you left off then maybe you could help them set up their test rig but in all seriousness, maybe it's time to put a fork in this byoch and move on.


Where's the like button???


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

jb4674 said:


> 1. You're confusing Soundskins with Second Skin.
> 2. This is to the OP: Why not put a table with the results on the first post so people don't have to ask the same question again and again???


I cant edit the first post, its been too long, but I will be doing a summary on sunday and having Brett close the thread, then opening a final thread once its finished.


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## Darth SQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I cant edit the first post, its been too long, but I will be doing a summary on sunday and having Brett close the thread, then opening a final thread once its finished.


I can but I never liked having the end of the story at the beginning.


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## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I can but I never liked having the end of the story at the beginning.


The rest of us have patiently waited two years and almost 1700 posts for the results. Make the noobs earn it.


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## lynchknot

A customer review at Amazon is reporting that Kno Knoise adhesive backing has melted at what appears to be a relatively low temperature: http://www.amazon.com/review/RS2AAL...hannel=detail-glance&nodeID=1077068&store=car


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks for the heads up. I'll dig around some more, that's the first report I've heard. I know a local who has had it on for over a year through one or two central valley summers, but it's possible they changed it, or got a bad batch.


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I'll dig around some more, that's the first report I've heard. I know a local who has had it on for over a year through one or two central valley summers, but it's possible they changed it, or got a bad batch.


I know that local. He hasn't had any issues so far. I don't think Kolossus is the easiest to work with (the adhesive is very sticky), but I haven't had any failures.


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## johnbooth3

I've done most of my car with Kolossus. I do say, weight is a big factor. This does add weight. It sticks pretty well. It doesn't form to large curves as well as the older Dynamat product did. That could be different on the newer stuff, just my experience. The aluminum layer does move/shift from the butyl layer. I can squeeze the butyl past the aluminum . So in my trunk, if anything is set on the Kolossus it does try to stick to the butyl because it is squeezed outside of the constrant layer. This is my biggest complaint so far. It has done a good job otherwise. This won't be a problem, once I put the system in the trunk and I may cover the floor of the trunk with MLV and CCF. 

If I did it again, I would use SSD on most of the car and use Kolossus or Dynamat on larger sections I want to cover like the inside of the door frame. I prefer to cover this closer to 100%. Probably not necessary but just habit and opinion that it works better. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kyle5521

So I just got 18 sq feet of noico on my door step. 

I'm speechless. I'll let you guys be the judge. 

Hardly any tape holding together incredibly thin cardboard directly containing the unprotected sheets. 


























































































Driven round in a dipped lancer


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## Hanatsu

Damn... Dat mess ;(


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Ouch, that is extremely poor packaging. All cld companies should know better than that. There are unfortunately quite a few companies that send it out like that.


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## firebirdude

I bought 72sqft and got basically the same thing. Packaged identically, but the butyl seepage looks a bit worse on yours. Mine had large marks all over the cardboard, but yours looks straight melted in spots.:worried:


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## seafish

firebirdude said:


> I bought 72sqft and got basically the same thing. ...but the butyl seepage looks a bit worse on yours. .


Is that CLD supposed to made with butyl rubber?? 

The graininess and melting make it look asphalt based !


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

It's supposed to be butyl, and the samples I have appear to be. It's also made by stp-atlantic, so they really should do a better job with packaging.


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## firebirdude

seafish said:


> Is that CLD supposed to made with butyl rubber??
> 
> The graininess and melting make it look asphalt based !


Yes it is and I agree



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It's supposed to be butyl, and the samples I have appear to be. It's also made by stp-atlantic, so they really should do a better job with packaging.


Yep and yep. Mine is still in the boxes and has been sitting inside the house waiting for the MLV/CCF and me to get my isht together. I'll try to post pictures of my packaging here shortly.


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## Alrojoca

Pretty much all brands do the same thing, leaving black marks on the carton, the weight and smashing side to side, some are worse some are clean.

Some get wrinkles some don't


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## Rudeboy

The pictures are consistent with butyl. It LOVES cardboard.


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## Alrojoca

And of course, smaller tiles or sheets may prevent those issues, those 36" by 18" sheets are always known to be a real mess after opening those boxes


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Ouch, that is extremely poor packaging. All cld companies should know better than that. There are unfortunately quite a few companies that send it out like that.


Or in a roll. Straight from the roofing materials manufacturer.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'm trying to think back. I think sds and stp-atlantic are the only companies whose packing prevented the cardboard/butyl attachment. I really can't think of any others.


----------



## bradknob

I had the same experience with the noico. Bought 72 sq ft. Both boxes contained 36sq ft, deadener folded twice, and in too large a box with about 8" of space on either side for it to slide around during shipping. Def less than professional packaging.


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## rton20s

That is a bit of a mess. One thing I will say for Knu is that I think they size most of their products based on flat rate USPS boxes.  That includes their deadener. Nothing folded/creased, even if there was a little butyl on the packaging.


----------



## Topdown

bradknob said:


> I had the same experience with the noico. Bought 72 sq ft. Both boxes contained 36sq ft, deadener folded twice, and in too large a box with about 8" of space on either side for it to slide around during shipping. Def less than professional packaging.


Wow - I ordered 72 sq ft as well, showed up in 2 flat boxes, wrapped in plastic inside the cardboard, nothing bent or folded. used a bunch to deaden my trunk and rear doors - worked great, doors and trunk lid are very dead with a single layer @ about 30-35% coverage (guessing at coverage) of outer skin.

going to be using an SDS/Noico combo on my front doors (no rear door speakers, just wanted the doors dead) but I don't honestly expect there to be much difference between the front/rear doors.

-R


----------



## bradknob

Topdown said:


> Wow - I ordered 72 sq ft as well, showed up in 2 flat boxes, wrapped in plastic inside the cardboard, nothing bent or folded. used a bunch to deaden my trunk and rear doors - worked great, doors and trunk lid are very dead with a single layer @ about 30-35% coverage (guessing at coverage) of outer skin.
> 
> 
> 
> going to be using an SDS/Noico combo on my front doors (no rear door speakers, just wanted the doors dead) but I don't honestly expect there to be much difference between the front/rear doors.
> 
> 
> 
> -R



I used about 30sq ft of stinger roadkill on just my front door skin, door card, and panels. (I know... Don't flame me) and it almost seemed to magnify the road noise coming through the back doors. Then I used the noico for the rear doors, rear quarter panels, rear floor, and ceiling along with ccf and MLV and noticed a dramatic difference. I'm pleased with the priceerformance ratio.


----------



## firebirdude

So it turns out I may have exaggerated my memories of my Noico unboxing. LOL I remember thinking it was packed a little poorly and that it was on the cardboard. But upon digging into it today, it was clearly NOTHING like Kyle posted.

72sqft. Came in two 36sqft boxes. Just 9 sheets 4sqft each stacked and cardboard wrapped around them (it's not really a box).

Yes, the foil is black. It's sold in two different thicknesses, 50 and 80mil. Maybe that's the difference Kyle? I got the 80mil. Bought it off Amazon.


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## Kyle5521

Why would that be any different tho? 
Our packaging is the same exact thing. Practically cardboard paper wrapped around the product. 
I also got 80mil 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


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## Kyle5521

The (box) mine came in was practically destroyed. Corners wearing down and wrinkled. Taped barley at all. I literally bent the package as a whole in half today showing my wife the shiz. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


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## firebirdude

Look up your order history and see who the seller was? Mine was STP Atlantic. Maybe yours was older and sat outside for a few weeks? lol

I donno man. That's much worse than mine came. Even though mine was packed the same. Again, no real box. It's just cardboard bent around it and few pieces of tape.

And of course having 36sqft in one box vs the 18sqft you bought makes it stiffer. Maybe less inclined to bend/smash like that?


----------



## 61ragtop

rton20s said:


> Or in a roll. Straight from the roofing materials manufacturer.



Doesn't wirez and focal put theirs in rolls? I would assume they are not roofing products. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kjekz

Any plans on testing dampening from gladen?


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## Kyle5521

firebirdude said:


> Look up your order history and see who the seller was? Mine was STP Atlantic. Maybe yours was older and sat outside for a few weeks? lol
> 
> I donno man. That's much worse than mine came. Even though mine was packed the same. Again, no real box. It's just cardboard bent around it and few pieces of tape.
> 
> And of course having 36sqft in one box vs the 18sqft you bought makes it stiffer. Maybe less inclined to bend/smash like that?



Mine came from noico solutions, sound control products. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


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## ryankenn

I have purchased two 36 sq ft orders from them, both came in the same box as shown. I didn't have the melting issue though.

I would say though that we are buying a $60 product with free shipping. I'm 100% sure Knu ships a lot nicer, but they also charge a ton because the product is heavy to ship. All the AlphaDamp closeouts were cheaper than the actual shipping cost.

I bet if you emailed them they'd happily take your money to ship it in a better box, but we know that's not the purpose of buying literally the cheapest CLD product sold on Amazon. But as with most things these days, we all want to have our cake and eat it to.


----------



## Kyle5521

It's not even about having our cake and eating it to. 

It all comes down to supplying a usable product to your customer, however cheap that product is whether or not it's a well performing or completely underperforming product in relation to other brands. 

It took me a long time and a lot of finesse to get just one sheet cut away from the mass of melted butyl that I received. On top of that, I ripped the CL in three places. 

If I order some doo doo (poop) off of Amazon, eBay, or from any other online source, I would expect to receive that doo doo in an appropriately sized box allowing the turds to be protected at least enough so that they hold their shape and look just as they did when the supplier packaged them and similar to the product portrayed in the ad. 

Now If I received the doo doo in a zip lock freezer bag all smooshed and squished and unusable not looking like the turds in the ad, regardless of if payed $1 of $500 I'd be an unhappy customer. 

If I ordered peel n seal from a dampening supplier I would expect to receive my wonderfully underperforming, practically useless product in at least a usable fashion. 




Driven round in a dipped lancer


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## Kyle5521

All these products are heavy to ship, some more than others. If mine would have been wrapped in a wax paper or similar non stick paper like don uses, (which contributes very little against the bottom line) it would have been much more usable. 


Driven round in a dipped lancer


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## joe89

Wow. I've never had deadener arrive like that. 

Second Skin... Alphadamp... Dynamat Extreme. All clean and crisp and I think it was the Second Skin B stock to boot.


----------



## firebirdude

Still VERY anxious to see the Noico 80mil results.


----------



## MANUTD

joe89 said:


> Wow. I've never had deadener arrive like that.
> 
> Second Skin... Alphadamp... Dynamat Extreme. All clean and crisp and I think it was the Second Skin B stock to boot.


The Dynamat Xtreme was very nicely boxws.

The B-Quiet Ultimate came on a roll.

From the B-Quiet website:

B-Quiet Ultimate is a viscoelastic deadener with a supercharged butyl based adhesive. With an aluminum constraining layer and an unique composition with suspended mineral particles it has been proven to be extremely efficient at the conversion of vibration to thermal energy. B-Quiet Ultimate is extremely flexible which is very important as it allows it to properly adhere to a contoured panel. It can be installed anywhere including under hood. Highly effective at a very reasonable price makes B-Quiet Ultimate the choice of many competitors. B-Quiet Ultimate is 1.6mm (60mil) thick, weighs 0.35 lb/sq. ft. *comes in 1 foot wide rolls* and is available in 2 sizes - 12 and 50 sq. ft. rolls


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## ryankenn

Kyle5521 said:


> It's not even about having our cake and eating it to.
> 
> It all comes down to supplying a usable product to your customer, however cheap that product is whether or not it's a well performing or completely underperforming product in relation to other brands.
> 
> It took me a long time and a lot of finesse to get just one sheet cut away from the mass of melted butyl that I received. On top of that, I ripped the CL in three places.
> 
> If I order some doo doo (poop) off of Amazon, eBay, or from any other online source, I would expect to receive that doo doo in an appropriately sized box allowing the turds to be protected at least enough so that they hold their shape and look just as they did when the supplier packaged them and similar to the product portrayed in the ad.
> 
> Now If I received the doo doo in a zip lock freezer bag all smooshed and squished and unusable not looking like the turds in the ad, regardless of if payed $1 of $500 I'd be an unhappy customer.
> 
> If I ordered peel n seal from a dampening supplier I would expect to receive my wonderfully underperforming, practically useless product in at least a usable fashion.


This is a lot of drama for something that running a knife down that edge should have resolved in 30 seconds. Its not like the product is sticking together over its entire surface area, its the very edge that sticks together. I just opened my third 36 sq ft one and tried it and with a framing square and OLFA I had a perfect edge in literally no time and very low effort.

And while you expect to receive something a certain way, it doesn't mean its going to happen. Did you not research the product at all? There are a ton of reviews of it, and all the pictures and complaints center around the edges sticking together and the box they come in.

And while the other brands do arrive in much better containers, you pay for it. I'm sure StP would gladly charge you to ship it however you wanted. But the reason its purchased is the price, which for my 36 sq ft order is less than just the shipping cost ($77USD) of 36 sq ft of Dynamat.

I'm not trying to say you can't be disappointed, but the issue is very small, its at only the edge, takes zero time to fix, and is easily expected if you search the product for less than 5 mins.


----------



## ryankenn

This was my third box, best of the three so far, and cutting it straight was straightforward.

 

And despite its shipping shortcomings all I ordered has worked fine so far. I did order Reckhorn this time to see if it arrives in a different/better fashion than this, but from looking at it I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually the same product with a different pattern stamped into the foil.


----------



## Anamolydetected

Well I got the knu kno knoise...I just love that name! It came super clean with no sticking edges  -I was pretty amazed how easily it cuts with a scissors. This was my first deadening and I'm super happy with the results.

Just thought I'd share my appreciation for having this resource of tested products from which to make an informed decision.

Now onto sound absorption 

TooStubborn, is your top recommendation 3m acoustic or sds melamine? BTW, where the hell do you buy 3m acoustic (I saw you mentioned it quite a while back in this thread)? -it's almost like they are not producing it anymore..or there are no U.S. distributors anymore?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Honestly at this point I'd use the sds melamine. I haven't found a single source for thinsulate, and after playing with both, I'm confident the difference between the two won't be audibly noticeable (especially in a car).


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## Rudeboy

I don't know what happened to Thinsulate Acoustic. We used it and sold it for years. It was a great product but 3M gave me no support at all - no technical data and no response when I tried to get answers to QC issues. I believe their primary interest was using it in engineered OEM parts.

The first problem for me was when they dropped the white scrim on the fiber side. Didn't impact performance but made it harder to work with. Then I started getting rolls with big drop outs in the fiber layer. While I was trying to resolve those issues 3M more than doubled the price. Made it untenable for me to continue with the product. I suspect other sellers had the same issues. 

(edited)


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## Darth SQ

Rudeboy said:


> I don't know what happened to Thinsulate Acoustic. We used it and sold it for years. It was a great product but 3M gave me no support at all - no technical data and no response when I tried to get answers to QC issues. I believe their primary interest was using it in engineered OEM parts.
> 
> The first problem for me was when they dropped the white scrim on the fiber side. Didn't impact performance but made it harder to work with. Then I started getting rolls with big drop outs in the fiber layer. While I was trying to resolve those issues 3M more than doubled the price. Made it untenable for me to continue with the product. I suspect other sellers had the same issues.
> 
> (edited).


Don unless you become a DIYMA vendor which I highly recommend you do, you can't be doing the promotional ads thing such as free samples; and even then not in someone else's thread.


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## Rudeboy

Oops.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*Re: Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing RESULTS*

My margin of error for these tests is +/- 0.75db. I have ran multiple tests of quite a few products, and that is the repeatable margin of error I have encountered.






Here's ALL the results in order of appearance:

KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942672-post215.html

GTMat Ultra
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942915-post223.html

Resonance Control
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1942919-post224.html

STP-Atlantic Bomb
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1943596-post239.html

Peel N Seal
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944963-post250.html

Alphadamp
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1944965-post251.html

Stinger Roadkill Expert
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945441-post260.html

Sounddeadenershowdown.com CLD Tiles
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945448-post261.html

Dynamat Xtreme
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945898-post275.html

KnuKoncepts Kolossus
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1945902-post276.html

stp gold
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951066-post360.html

GTMat Onyx
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1951067-post361.html

Second Skin Damplifier Pro
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954600-post373.html

Memphis Audio Mojo Mat
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954607-post374.html

STP-Atlantic Silver
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954612-post375.html

Raamat BXT2
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1955606-post386.html

GTMat 110mil
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956243-post421.html

GTMat 50mil
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1956246-post423.html

GTMat Quadro
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1966307-post479.html

*STP Vizomat*
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1971578-post507.html


I've quoted Seedling's (Chad's) post so that these are at the end of the thread.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Here is the repost of the Silent Coat results.

2mm





4mm




5mm multilayer


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My current top three, based entirely on performance and heat testing, in the order I would put them.


1st - Sound Deadener Showdown CLD Tiles
2nd - Silent Coat 4mm
3rd - KnoKonceptz Kolossus

With the products I have left to test, I don't see SDS CLD Tiles being knocked off top spot. In fact, its been top spot since it was first tested. With heat testing mostly finished, Kolossus got knocked down a notch to Silent Coat 4mm. But neither can come close to matching SDS's heat tolerance, and that is a big deal for me. As I've said before, I firmly believe that products that withstand a wider range of temperatures, will also damp vibrations better at a wider range a temperatures. I can't objectively prove it without building a far more expensive test rig, but all the information available points to that being true. Living somewhere where temps get to 110F in the summer, that is important to me.


As I said in the first post, I would be using the top testing overall product, regardless of price, in my personal builds. In a few weeks, I will be installing some SDS in my personal (well my wife's) car, and will be taking before and after measurements. 

Price wise, the top three breakdown as following. I've excluded bulk packs, and limited amounts to 35 square feet. In a normal install, more than that shouldn't be needed.

1 - KnuKonceptz Kolossus - $5.42-$4 per square foot, for normal amounts. 
2 - SDS CLD Tiles - $6.36-$5.40 per square foot, for normal amounts.
3 - Silent Coat 4mm - $5.47 per square foot*

I've listed Silent Coat as third, because they only seem to have one price point at this time, and in order to do a whole car, their price point is higher than SDS. Buying 16.6 square feet of SDS gets you to $5.40 per square foot, where 15.36 square feet of Silent Coat is $5.47. Anything over that is still $5.47.

The pro's of SDS is direct customer service from the owner and original CLD tester, along with a killer no frills website that is the only sound deadening website that I have found from any company not to have at least one lie, stretch of the truth, or statement of ignorance, along with the best overall product when considering the requirements of a CLD designed for car use. It's also the lightest of the top 3 products, by at least 25%. The only con I can come up with is price, but as far as I'm personally concerned the price is justified. As said earlier, this is what I'll personally be using. (Previously, I would have listed difficulty in ordering as a con as well, as some people had reported issues, but, now that SDS has a fully working cart system implemented, that is a non issue anymore) 

The pro's of Silent Coat 4mm are slightly better damping (and by slight I mean right at the edge of this test's tolerance). The cons are again, price, as well as a lower heat tolerance level, highest weight of the top 3, and a weak constraining layer. Some might remember, that Silent Coat is the product I had issues with using the stamper to cut out, as the stress caused the constraining layer to tear on the edges. This is the only product I've had do this. I would not use this in an area where heavy rubbing or sliding might take place.

The pro for Kolossus is price. Its the lowest priced, high performing product, performing just under SDS in damping (performing below SDS by right at the tolerances of the testing). The cons, well, slightly less damping performance, a flammable plastic coating on the aluminum the second highest weight of the top 3, and significantly less heat stability. I don't think the product performs low enough in heat testing to fall off, but I do think SDS would perform measurably better in summer conditions. Likewise, I don't think the flammable coating is going to cause an issue (its also not the only product that has this), but it does need to be mentioned.






If you are building a car that needs to be light weight, but still want a damping material, Dynamat Xtreme is the only way to go. It is the lightest weight to performance material out there, period. It performs, in my tests, as well as Damplifier Pro, and almost as well as STP Silver, which are both heavier. It also performs significantly better than Raamat BXT2, the other lightweight product.


I would stay away from anything from GTMat. None of their products had the combined performance and heat resistance to convince me to use them in any way shape or form in a vehicle.

Peel N Seal is an obvious no, as is Fatmat.

Alphadamp is discontinued (and performed just under Damplifier Pro) and Murdermat has discontinued their best product, and has supply issues.

I would not personally use Silent Coat 2mm or 5mm, the first due to the performance, the second due to smell and heat resistance.

I would not use Raamat BXT2, Memphis Mojo Mat, KnuKonceptz KnoKnoise Resonance Control, Stinger Roadkill Expert, or STP-Atlantic Vizomat due to low performance.

I would not use STP-Atlantic Bomb due to poor heat resistance. 

I would not personally use Second Skin Audio's Damplifier Pro. The product itself has nothing wrong with it, its just that there are better products out there based on my testing for the same cost. It performs around the same level as Dynamat Xtreme in my testing, and holds up to heat fine.












I REALLY hate doing this, but this thread is now finished. I will be having it locked after this post. 

As I have stated a few times, there is a situation that I've been waiting on for it to boil over. Well that time has come. It unfortunately has the possibility to affect me severely not only in financial terms, but also with the living arrangements of my family and I. It is not something directly caused by my family or I, but it is something we have to deal with none the less.

I am not actually finished testing. All products I still have will be wrapped up, and stored in a temperature controlled setting until I can finish testing. Unfortunately, this other issue will be taking all of my time for the time being. When I am able to finish all testing, a new thread will be made, with all results present, both the ones listed here and all new ones.


Thank you for everyone who helped me out with this project.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For those that aren't aware, I'm back, and am gearing up for more testing. Figured I'd add a link to the new thread here, for the people that haven't been around in a while, or those who find this via google. There is a go fund me for the next test rig, which will be night and day better than the one used in this thread, and it will be a permanent addition to my garage, enabling testing for the foreseeable future. It will be able to run tests at multiple temps between 50-110F, record audio during the tests for people to hear and analyze in audacity, and have a significantly lower noise floor than last time.


https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/415165-cld-testing.html


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