# the best house curve in car



## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

hello guys, what do you think about the best house curve for in car use?
and how about using a fletcher munson curve?
ive tried andy curves also fletcher munson curves that i generate for REW use. but it seems i got a problem around 1khz-5khz. i have to notch some freq around 1khz-5khz to make it proper for my ear.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

That's probably a crossover issue. Where are your XO points for the mid and tweeters? What size is the mid?


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> That's probably a crossover issue. Where are your XO points for the mid and tweeters? What size is the mid?


well im using 6.5 inch midwoofer and 1 inch tweeter, crossed at 2800hz 4th order. on alpine pxa 701.

tweeter fs @ 1300 hz


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Do you have overlap? If not then that's not the issue.


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> Do you have overlap? If not then that's not the issue.


no, tweeter crossed at 2800 hz 24db, mid at 2800hz 24 db.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

jacky_here said:


> hello guys, what do you think about the best house curve for in car use?
> and how about using a fletcher munson curve?
> ive tried andy curves also fletcher munson curves that i generate for REW use. but it seems i got a problem around 1khz-5khz. i have to notch some freq around 1khz-5khz to make it proper for my ear.


The house curve is a separate post, Ill try to get to it later today time permitting. Meanwhile what processor are you using and can you share some details on how things are set, also where your speakers are mounted. 

Selective deep cuts in the 600-8khz range are very common in a car, in fact I'd go as far as saying that for all 'normal' car installs, unless you have the cuts, it's probably not going to sound right. 

There are two reasons for this and both have the same cause, which is early reflections. Early reflections start to kick in ~500 hz and go all the way to the top, we perceive the incident sound louder than it actually is and because of timing differences between the direct and reflected sound are out of phase with each other and depending on how they sum we can have peaks or nulls in this range. 

Add to this mix the FM curves which tell us how sensitive our ears are across the 10 octaves. So now if the sound is summing to 3db peak at 3 khz, where we are most sensitive, so we flatten the peak and it still doesn't sound right, it still sounds bright. Why? Well, what about the fact that there are tons of early reflections happening at 3khz, and you're hearing 3khz louder than you're measuring....

TLDR: It's probably not the crossovers.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Someone said once, tuning a car is kind of like tuning a 5-7 driver loudspeaker for a single point inside the speaker cabinet. Then make all the shapes plastic, glass and seat upholstery, then put all the speakers in odd angles to the single point you want to tune. 

SQ is hard.


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

sqnut said:


> The house curve is a separate post, Ill try to get to it later today time permitting. Meanwhile what processor are you using and can you share some details on how things are set, also where your speakers are mounted.
> 
> Selective deep cuts in the 600-8khz range are very common in a car, in fact I'd go as far as saying that for all 'normal' car installs, unless you have the cuts, it's probably not going to sound right.
> 
> ...


that make sense about early reflection. well im using alpine pxa701 processor. midwoofer placed inside the door on oem place with aperiodic membrane enclosure, tweeter mounted on kickpanel angled to the center of roof. im using andy's curve and the response looks good and closed to target curve. im sorry i cant post the pic since i have to post 5 times before diyma allow me to post the pic. ill do it later


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

well, just like i said, tweeter crossed at 2800hz 24db , midwoofer at 2800hz 24db also. equalizer set to match andy's target curve. im adding zobel network to flatten the midwoofers impedance also for the tweeters. before im adding the zobel it sounds brighter. since i simulate the driver on xover pro with fc at 2800hz 24db/oct i found some peak around 4/5khz im forget. thats the reason i decided to add zobel network for my system and it helps me a bit.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

LOL...."sq is easy"...and cheap. Sure thing.

All relative sir.

If we are talking about getting loud bass for the masses- it's easy and cheap. If we are talking about getting SQ for the masses- it's easy and cheap.

Getting to the top 5 vehicles in North America in either SPL or SQ is neither easy, nor cheap. Fact.


For the OP- There are plenty of target curves that one can use in their vehicle, but really since we all hear things a little differently, listen to different music and have different preferences, the target curve would ideally be custom tailored to the individual. The JBL curve that Andy developed is a great starting point and gets you very close and from there you can make the tweaks needed to suit your own tastes.

2-way setups are tricky because you are usually running a woofer into a range where it is (1) beaming- off axis response begins to differ greatly from on axis - uneven system power response (2) the woofer could be playing into an area of cone breakup which would increase distortion (3) you need to have a tweeter that can cross over very low and with low distortion.


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

ok just done my 5th post so i can post the pic now.

here is my freq response

left and right response:




















with fletcher munson curve that i generate for REW left & right response (correct me if im wrong):


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

The best house curve does not exist as it is very sensitive issue depending of the personal sound perception. Could you please show your actual test results? It could be a x-over problem as well. I have tried for fun Munson curves in a car, for example Izofon80 and so on... It sounds bright and clear, but is not able to give real music impression. Looks like it lost its soul. Such sounds this for me. Other might have different opinions, and it is OK. Searchng best curve for me I focused on scene deepness and came to MP1 curve, that meets my demands. It is little bit heavy in the low end but perfekt for driving. 

Sendt fra min GT-I9505 med Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

that looks like your using the "spectrum" setting in rew. that reads different than an rta. it will slope up from left to right which will make it sound brighter. try using 1/6th rta instead which is found in the settings of the rta. also make sure to un-check "use bars on rta"


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

brothers dont fight  we are on this hobby to make friends , everyone has their own perception. just enjoy the system


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Yes, curves are tricky, but what's more important is finding offending frequencies whether by RTA or ear. I use a combination of both since a mic is not the same as your hearing. It can become a bit tedious until you get to know the vehicle's acoustics and your own hearing, but in the end your hearing is what matters regardless of what the RTA or curve are supposed to look like. I've got at least around 4 tuning files saved on my DSP. All bring something to the mix while sounding good. However, the best tunes involved using my hearing to determine what sounds right to me..... keep at it.


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> that looks like your using the "spectrum" setting in rew. that reads different than an rta. it will slope up from left to right which will make it sound brighter. try using 1/6th rta instead which is found in the settings of the rta. also make sure to un-check "use bars on rta"


ive tried using RTA , but with my audiocontrol RTA never tried a house curve on my audio control sa 3051. so im using REW with my dayton audio omnimic. and measured with frequency sweep from 20hz-20khz.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jacky_here said:


> ive tried using RTA , but with my audiocontrol RTA never tried a house curve on my audio control sa 3051. so im using REW with my dayton audio omnimic. and measured with frequency sweep from 20hz-20khz.


yes but in rew, there are settings to use spectrum, or rta inside the rta window. you want to use rta. i dont have my mic on me or i would show you the differences in the two. just take a measurement and when your done recording it just flip through spectrum and rta and look at the difference


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

i found some curve and it sounds quite good, ive tried. but cant go perfect to hit the target curve. im using iasca 2016 cd track 10 and the women voice is not honky as the other curve.
and i still had some problem around 4-5khz where i felt it sounds too bright.

right:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

what dsp are you using?


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> what dsp are you using?


alpine pxa h701, and alpine w520 headunit


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

On the last curves, cut 3-4 db at 1.25, 2-3 db at 2khz and a couple of dbs at 8khz.


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

last curve? do you mean the purple curve? thats left channel response. or purple and blue curve have to decrease on that freq? idk i can do it or not, since ive done so many boost to the max and notch to the max on many freq to match the target. if some curve didn't match the target maybe ive been boosting or push it down to the max


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

jacky_here said:


> last curve? do you mean the purple curve? thats left channel response. or purple and blue curve have to decrease on that freq? idk i can do it or not, since ive done so many boost to the max and notch to the max on many freq to match the target. if some curve didn't match the target maybe ive been boosting or push it down to the max


wait, you're saying you have several frequencies boosted to max?


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

sqnut said:


> wait, you're saying you have several frequencies boosted to max?


yup, max +9db. yes i knew that some people prevent to boost too much, but ive tried and there were no problem for me on freq that i boost and notch to the max +- 9db. back to the problem that happen around 4-5khz


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Beware of clipping...


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Have you tried using AutoEQ?






I use the same curve (slightly modified JBL house curve) and get great results.


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

fcarpio said:


> Have you tried using AutoEQ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sure i made eq filter file from 200hz- 20khz and set the Q factor for 2. since im using 31 band graphic EQ. and it seems closer to my expectation.
and just wait for REW to generate


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

captainobvious said:


> Beware of clipping...


yes sometimes i got clip when i turn up the volume too loud. i can see it on my rux 701 controller. so i just listen it around 85db i think


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

jacky_here said:


> yup, max +9db. yes i knew that some people prevent to boost too much, but ive tried and there were no problem for me on freq that i boost and notch to the max +- 9db. back to the problem that happen around 4-5khz



A little boosting is okay if you're doing left & right EQ to center things, but nothing near +9db. If you have to do that then something is wrong. I use 1/3 octave on the RTA when tuning even though my processor has more capability. It's just easier to get in the ballpark without over analyzing things. Just be careful relying too much on the RTA. It's not a replacement for your ears.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

It is very common to cut as sqnut mentioned, and I find the 1-4khz range in particular needing attention. The fletcher munson curves are neat and certainly useful but not in this application (I'm not sure how to explain it briefly, but I can try it you like).

I'm not sure how you're building your house curves but you might be interested in the excel spreadsheet tool I made for doing just that. See the link in my signature.

You might want to try something that looks like my generic house curve (shown below) where there is an increase in bass, there is a dip in the 1-4khz range (try a deeper dip if you want), and the treble stays mostly flat beyond that. It's a fairly good average of the many curves out there, but you are absolutely encouraged to craft your own curve that sounds best to you.

Again, this is not the best curve. It's just an example of something that I like as a baseline.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

jacky_here said:


> yup, max +9db. yes i knew that some people prevent to boost too much, but ive tried and there were no problem for me on freq that i boost and notch to the max +- 9db. back to the problem that happen around 4-5khz


In none of the graphs that you posted has 4-5 khz been seen as peaky, so I have to ask why you're so focused on that area, what makes you think the problem lies here? Is it just possible that you're hearing the measured peaks at the frequencies I mentioned, and you're thinking it's 4-5 because cutting here a lot makes is slightly better? And now you've run out of cut space . Your problems lie elsewhere.

If you have to cut and boost a lot of frequencies to the max to dial in any curve, you might be doing something differently from the way it should be done.


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

Jazzi said:


>


that dip looks to be around 1.18k @ -3db, what would the Q be? I'd like to try this, as I am trying the jbl curve but its a tad bright.

Thanks!


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## jacky_here (Jan 5, 2017)

sqnut said:


> jacky_here said:
> 
> 
> > yup, max +9db. yes i knew that some people prevent to boost too much, but ive tried and there were no problem for me on freq that i boost and notch to the max +- 9db. back to the problem that happen around 4-5khz
> ...


 i tried to reduce 4-5k and it sounds slightly better on andy target curve , i guess ure right now i found clipping as my new problem. since my target curve is the last one. that i have to boost and notch so much. idk what to do . since that curve sounds quite good for me


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, who deleted my last two posts and why?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

crackinhedz said:


> that dip looks to be around 1.18k @ -3db, what would the Q be? I'd like to try this, as I am trying the jbl curve but its a tad bright.
> 
> Thanks!



The jbl curve can he a little strong at 3k.........looks like jazzi's house curve is addressing that problem, his cut seems to he centered around 2.8k......


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

claydo said:


> The jbl curve can he a little strong at 3k.........looks like jazzi's house curve is addressing that problem, his cut seems to he centered around 2.8k......


Clay, you are a genius. I was misreading the graph, duh! What would that Q be though, I'm not very savvy about Q just by looking at it. Looks broad, so a lower Q?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Lol......just guessing here but maybe around 5 or 6?


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

crackinhedz said:


> that dip looks to be around 1.18k @ -3db, what would the Q be? I'd like to try this, as I am trying the jbl curve but its a tad bright.
> 
> Thanks!


The way that graph is made was using my excel tool, which doesn't use filters with Q the way you're asking for. If you would like a similar effect, you can try using a single parametric EQ filter centered around 2,800hz (nice job claydo) with a Q=2.0 and gain of -3.5dB. This will not give you an exact fit but it will be pretty close, and you can vary the amount of the cut to make the valley deeper and if your DSP supports it you can lower the Q to 1.5 to make the valley wider.

If you want to make the valley wider but your DSP cannot use a Q below 2.0, try using a pair of filters centered at 2,500hz and 3,100hz with Q=2.0 and gain= -2.0dB. You can move the center frequencies further apart to make the valley wider.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Just out of curiosity, who deleted my last two posts and why?


probably just some more forum wonkiness, been some more of that going on again.......I thought they had it about fixed.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

claydo said:


> probably just some more forum wonkiness, been some more of that going on again.......I thought they had it about fixed.


I think either someone complained or an over eager mod had twitchy fingers. It was a conversation with Mr. DD that wens something like this.....

*Me: *Maybe the reason you think SQ is easy is because you're not hearing all the differences between your ref source and your car.

*Mr. DD:* You don't know me, I had built SPL setups that placed in top 10 and sounded good.

*Me:* SPL and SQ are totally different animals and the skill sets learned in becoming the 8th best fish, are not the same as those required to be a top 10 rabbit. You have to start by understanding what a rabbit is.

*Mr. DD:* You don't know me, nor the time I spent doing critical listening while making notes. I almost had total SQ dialed in at 150 db, so now at 120 db it's a breeze.

*Me:* SQ is about hearing incrementally smaller problems and learning how to correct them. To this end, our ears have incredible resolution in hearing a difference in amplitude, timing and phase. But this ability works best when we listen between ~80-100 db and it starts dropping off a cliff above ~100db, because as the ears get overwhelmed, they lose the ability to hear differences. So at 120 and 150 db a lot of the details will be lost and it's no longer SQ. 

I even attached this link that explains how we hear.

https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys406/lecture_notes/p406pom_lecture_notes/p406pom_lect5.pdf


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

Jazzi said:


> you can try using a single parametric EQ filter centered around 2,800hz (nice job claydo) with a Q=2.0 and gain of -3.5dB.


Nice, gonna give this a try!


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Just out of curiosity, who deleted my last two posts and why?


I did. In an attempt to keep this somewhat on topic, I removed the "SPL vs. SQL" foolishness...and in doing so, it made your replies nonsensical. Sorry


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

When are we just going to remove Derek as a whole..

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I think either someone complained or an over eager mod had twitchy fingers. It was a conversation with Mr. DD that wens something like this.....
> 
> *Me: *Maybe the reason you think SQ is easy is because you're not hearing all the differences between your ref source and your car.
> 
> ...


Oh.....I read that exchange, but it slipped my mind what thread it was in.....good luck arguing with that feller, when he stated sound quality was easy, I was almost baited in....lol. Sorry al, not meaning to drag it back ot again......


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Don't make me turn this car around!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd just like to see the attacks and attitude come to a halt. If people are not accepting what you have to say then move on. It's not a contest... it's a subjective hobby.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

People won't let me have a friendly conversation. 
I cone here to share ideas with like minded people not to see who has the bigger pecker.


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