# OEM HeadUnits crippled?Or Just as good as Aftermarket signals?



## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I have a 2014 Toyota. I had a car about 10 years ago and I know as soon as I took out the stock Audi head unit the Stereo came to life.

Whats the situation in newer Japanese cars? Are the outputs specific out of the head unit on entry models? I know the models with multi-channel and speaker have an amp that distributes the different Fsignals. But on base models, Do they have any crippling F signals? Or are they simply really bad where changing the HU will make a significant difference you can notice?


I was advised that... "If you use a DSP, it would be fine".

I am thinking the OEM head units have cut some of the high F's in order to have more volume with less distortion, but I could be wrong.

Btw, Panasonic or Pioneer make the current Toyota head units....Not that that should tell you anything , as lower quality or design specific parts are often used in OEM units.

I wanted to ask the experiences of others, and hopefully some pros, and in the know industry folks.

Whats the deal?


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

What Toyota model? Have you done any research to see if anybody has measured the signal? Generally speaking the quality of HU and Amp signal itself will have the least effect on overall sound quality. Install, choice of speakers, tune is what matters most. 
My car has the Pioneer HU and Amp. All of the audio controls are handled in the amp so to retain those controls the signal needs to tapped after the amp. Lexus does this with all of their cars not sure if Toyota is the same. The output signal from the oem amp needs to be mixed and flattened at the DSP's input. The amount and how it will be done depends on your particular car and what channels are tapped.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Toyota are the worst I've used. Next to Subaru and ford , a easy 3rd crappiest sounding , dsp can make it better but if 10-20k is non existent you can't fix that and 20-60hz is almost nothing . 

And they distort at all volume levels. Dsp can't fix that either.


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

It depends. My 2014 Accord frequency response looks like it has an 80 hz high pass filter activated. It also changes response based on head unit volume, boosting midbass more as volume is decreased and vice versa.


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## Installer Josh (Sep 9, 2013)

oabeieo said:


> Toyota are the worst I've used. Next to Subaru and ford , a easy 3rd crappiest sounding , dsp can make it better but if 10-20k is non existent you can't fix that and 20-60hz is almost nothing .
> 
> And they distort at all volume levels. Dsp can't fix that either.


I will second that. You can put all the equipment you want behind that radio and you will still be left with lifeless music only louder.



billw said:


> It depends. My 2014 Accord frequency response looks like it has an 80 hz high pass filter activated. It also changes response based on head unit volume, boosting midbass more as volume is decreased and vice versa.


Your radio has it short comings but is not all that bad especially in comparison to Ford Toyota and Chrysler. Ive had good success improving the sound of those cars with the factory head intact.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Installer Josh said:


> I will second that. You can put all the equipment you want behind that radio and you will still be left with lifeless music only louder.
> 
> 
> 
> Your radio has it short comings but is not all that bad especially in comparison to Ford Toyota and Chrysler. Ive had good success improving the sound of those cars with the factory head intact.


Yep. Your a installer that has to deal with ****ty customers that come back to you pissed there factory system upgrade sounds like **** after you told them from the beginning to ditch the factory head kinda dood. Lol

Yeah the Hondas are decent and bmw is very decent. Anytime I am forced to sum I might as well say bye bye to sq.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I have the Toy 2014 Highlander, same as 2015 (Basic Entune system/Non-JBL), 2016 is also the same system/I think. 

I am starting to point fingers to the HU. I had the signal tested for distortion volume max, but I don't think the tuner did any specific signal tests.

A few months ago I was on here debating to change my front components, but I couldn't figure out how the set I had could sound THIS "OFF"...meaning some songs played pretty good mostly, but they others sounded horrible, and all vocals /regardless of genresounded with NO presence.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

So. it is so? HU is the culprit to most SQ issues? I can see this being the case, since the highs will suffer when you play louder, and since cheaper speakers being used, they can clip it and play louder.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2016)

If your OEM headunit distorts at say 20 of 40 on the volume.... The only way to extract the best sound possible is to use a DSP that allows an external volume control...

Turn the OEM volume to the point just before the onset of distortion, this will serve as your base level. At this point you should be able to raise volume level without distortion using the external control...

For instance, a Helix DSP Pro providing the processing then add the Helix Director for DSP control and Master Volume control.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> If your OEM headunit distorts at say 20 of 40 on the volume.... The only way to extract the best sound possible is to use a DSP that allows an external volume control...
> 
> Turn the OEM volume to the point just before the onset of distortion, this will serve as your base level. At this point you should be able to raise volume level without distortion using the external control...
> 
> For instance, a Helix DSP Pro providing the processing then add the Helix Director for DSP control and Master Volume control.



I have done just that....
The problem I am talking about is not distortion. Head unit frequency output is more the area I'm referring to. This is something most installers don't test, and they simply test the distortion level and call it a day.

In my past experience I can with no doubt tell you that once you swap the head unit you will notice the system come alive.

I have been told that the recent HUnits from OEM have gotten so much better and that they are as good as aftermarket. (Talking about frequecy output). 

I DON'T believe this.....A couple things support my belief.
#1 that OEM's would not want to have all frequencies play at all volumes. Proof is OEM "premium" systems. They control the freq and some of the lows and the highs are cut to allow users to play at louder volumes without the oem distorting, and more importantly not damaging the speakers at the extreme frequencies within warranty period. Its not hard to have the MFG's create a limiting output in the head unit.

#2 You just can't hear some of the frequencies in vocals no matter how hard you push the DSP. The sound is held back, its not dynamic.

I would tell you 10 years ago that you are an idiot if you think a DSP with OEM is going to get you optimal sound. I would tell you the HU is the first thing to swap out..or at least it is a must, and unless you want to do things over, it IS the first.

I keep my mouth shut now, as I don't know the facts on what the recent HU output. One would have to play the full set of Freq from min to max to see if there is no built in roll off or cut of the range in output. I'll pay for the harness. You bring your HU and listen.


The only way for me to prove my point would be to have a aftermarket headunit on hand and a harness to swap test it. I am willing to try if someone has a Toyota harness and a headunit.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

You need to test your factory stereo. What you are looking for is the electrical frequency response. No head unit swapping needed. Understand what you have first.

You can read some of my posts from this thread and you can see the type of results I got on my 2011 Mustang with SYNC.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...8034-measuring-oem-hu-frequency-response.html


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Interesting....except that I'm not good at reading these plots you posted at the end of the thread. And I'm shocked that the thread just stops there. WTF?!!


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

This was an EASY test. I plugged in the aftermarket and they are WORLDS APART!!!

You don't need to listen close or anything...lol. It will slap you in the face!
Anyone running a DSP with the OEM is just not facing the fact that the source youre using is garbage, and what you are doing is enhancing garbage.

I have to say. If you are running the factory stereo, and you are on here talking like an authority on sound. You need to STFU! You are doing people here a MAJOR disservice.

When people ask about sound quality and someone advises to get a DSP... when the HU is not even an acceptable source. Don't do that folks!
I've been on this site searching high and low why my components are not sounding clean, and I got all advise on what to switch them out to...DSP recommendations, your tuner is bad...etc...
I even hired the tuner come for the second time with no lateral improvement...

All this time its the HU!


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I have to say. If you are running the factory stereo, and you are on here talking like an authority on sound. You need to STFU! You are doing people here a MAJOR disservice.


Ummm, just because *your *OEM headunit sucked doesn't mean *ALL* OEM headunits suck.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

True...if you read the thread, we discuss the Toyota...well at least I do


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## motomech (Nov 12, 2014)

Phil,
Do you by chance have any REW data with OEM HU?
Would be interesting to compare to aftermarket HU.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I think I have the REW readings with the OEM. 

I'll have to check.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Sorry I didn't see your thread before. I havea '13 Camry with a base audio setup (or it was base). Before I did any speaker or amp upgrading I dynamatted all surfaces and replaced the head unit. Night and day difference. The factory speakers were actually somewhat decent. The rears had some bass, more than most factory 6x9s, but only after the head unit replacement. 

Of course now I'm running fully active and it's another world all together, but I would venture to say that I agree 100%, the factory radio really limits your capabilities.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

You're really making me wanna swap my OEM out for an aftermarket on my Tundra. 
The MS8 definitely makes a major improvement with imaging, staging, and overall sound quality, but I feel like it's just not where I want it yet. 
I mean part of that is because I have'nt quite figured out all the MS8s quirks yet, but the other part I feel is because it cant completely compensate for the crappy signal of the head unit.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

My stock ford is fine after the MS-8 wiped it clean. Don't distort at full volume. 
It does have this weird Static/fax machine type noise at very low volume that goes away when the car warms up. I'm thinking its a dirty power wire on the HU


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

DDfusion said:


> My stock ford is fine after the MS-8 wiped it clean. Don't distort at full volume.
> It does have this weird Static/fax machine type noise at very low volume that goes away when the car warms up. I'm thinking its a dirty power wire on the HU


Dont get me wrong it sounds Awesome! I just feel that I would benefit from installing an aftermarket unit to give the MS8 a clean signal to start with.
Also my headunit seems to like to freeze up and restart quite often, despite being about 1.5 years old.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm happy. It sounds good enough to the point I forget where I am a lot.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Bminus said:


> You're really making me wanna swap my OEM out for an aftermarket on my Tundra.
> The MS8 definitely makes a major improvement with imaging, staging, and overall sound quality, but I feel like it's just not where I want it yet.
> I mean part of that is because I have'nt quite figured out all the MS8s quirks yet, but the other part I feel is because it cant completely compensate for the crappy signal of the head unit.


If the Tundra is anything like the Highlander (Very likely)...You're wasting your time on the MS8

I have had the RF360.3 tuned twice with no significant lateral improvement!

Once you plug the aftermarket in and you hear the dynamic wide sound output you will take your head and want to RAM IT into a wall!

There are frequencies your HU is JUST NOT PLAYING, and this affects the spread of the sound in a way that I can describe the following....

Its like standing in a 8x8' bathroom vs a concert hall. The frequencies are all FULL stepless. In the EnTune/Pioneer OEM unit the freq are crippled at different points, and you DON'T need to listen for it, as its OBVIOUS once you swap it.

As far as DDF....I don't know what Ford does now a days, but IF the Ford unit is crippled, I would have to say you have not experienced hi-def sound. I have for years and I knew I was not satisfied 100% with the OEM/DSP360.3/JLAmp/MBQuart-og-QSD216. So there was something wrong. I even made an appointment for a hearing test. Then I blamed the speakers.... WRONG!

Even my sound stage has been elevated as those freq are now playing from the dash, as before they were cut and most of the sound was forced from the low doors.

If your Ford is playing the full spectrun freq, then I guess you are hearing what you need to hear. I had an 2001 Explorer and swapped head units, it was a major improvement with the stock speakers! 

Btw, Just the signal strength and power is a 3-5 times difference. I say this loosely, as I just noticed my hiss sound I am having (likely from DSP) to multiply. Also on the 4100nex, Vol-17 (with my DSP couple stops short of FULL) is pretty much max right now. Everything needs to be redone as far as DSP is related.

Also. SO far this is all with LOC! with the adapter. Wait til I use the RCA's, I think it might be a touch better. 

I don't know how much to expect on this difference from the OEM speaker/Radio harness to running RCA direct...Anyone try this out? Regardless I'm not going to bother NOT doing it.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Hum. Maybe I just know what I'm doing and choose the right equipment for the job.

Stock will roll off in the low frequancy. We all know that. But there is a way to get it all back.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Yep. Just ran a sweep with the tone generator. It's got 20-20k. Just like it supposed to


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> This was an EASY test. I plugged in the aftermarket and they are WORLDS APART!!!
> 
> You don't need to listen close or anything...lol. It will slap you in the face!
> Anyone running a DSP with the OEM is just not facing the fact that the source youre using is garbage, and what you are doing is enhancing garbage.
> ...


That's funny, I actually laughed at the truth of it. 

It does slap you in the face . There that bad!

What's funny is 10x out of 9 a 30$ pac LOC sounds better than a 300$ audio control LOC. 

Either way it's just a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. 

Degradation to its worst extreme


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Factory head units seem to all have funky signal manipulation, be it volume controlled eq, rolled off frequencies, or full on dsp internally......I have seen many folks running factory to external dsp, but I have never seen a switch to aftermarket not offer a dramatic, obvious improvement, usually garnering a facepalm from the person who owns it.......lol. I hate seeing factory radios being so tied in with the operation of modern cars, because I ALWAYS snatch that bish out.....I've also witnessed many folks getting all twisted up wondering why all their premium gear sounds like **** attached to their factory radio.....often blaming speakers, amps, or tune.......


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

And how do you get the mid or high freq back?

I don't need to know now, but still good info


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> And how do you get the mid or high freq back?
> 
> I don't need to know now, but still good info


A dsp with eq on the input signal......but boosting frequencies that are already rolled off just isn't the way to good clean sound.......imo. That can bandaid rolloff, but any other time allignment or other garbage, yer just stuck with. As I said I've never seen anything short of massive improvement from swapping out the factory source.

If you have a factory source without any serious signal manipulation.......consider yerself lucky.....


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

claydo said:


> Factory head units seem to all have funky signal manipulation, be it volume controlled eq, rolled off frequencies, or full on dsp internally......I have seen many folks running factory to external dsp, but I have never seen a switch to aftermarket not offer a dramatic, obvious improvement, usually garnering a facepalm from the person who owns it.......lol. I hate seeing factory radios being so tied in with the operation of modern cars, because I ALWAYS snatch that bish out.....I've also witnessed many folks getting all twisted up wondering why all their premium gear sounds like **** attached to their factory radio.....often blaming speakers, amps, or tune.......


Yes, and yes!
Everything is much more detailed and pronounced.



> Hum. Maybe I just know what I'm doing and choose the right equipment for the job.


I have to question that.
There have been 2 other times that I came across threads you post in, and I had to question your "knowing what you're doing". No offense, but that is my assessment with very limited info from a forum. But what might be obvious to me with some statements. I also would like to see more direct help from you if you are here to share. Often, you know something and your just sticking to that. You have nothing to learn it seams.

I certainly don't have your tools or access, but there are things I do know, and that's music sound. Its not something unique, but if you are exposed to critical listening from a young age, you just know.

Yet I certainly don't claim to know a whole lot more.... but I have experienced and trained ears in audio recordings and production of them and what sounds right and wrong.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Maybe I just got lucky. Who knows. But I do know how to critical listen and I find myself doing often just to be amazed by what I'm hearing. 
The MS-8 wipes out the EQ prior to tuning. I didn't have a factory amp and TA can be defeated. 
So tada it worked and worked very well. The ms-8 also reads the source for distortion during tuning. It's my savior and I dread the day it dies


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Yes, and yes!
> Everything is much more detailed and pronounced.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm starting to think you didn't grab a full range signal. That's really all it could be.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

if the head unit is not putting it out, I can't grab it no matter how much a tuner tweaks the 360.3 dsp.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I think you people full of **** blaming basic HU. Toy HU does NOTHING to the sound, no alteration at all, I measured 2012 4runner HU. not Entune,not JBL, just basic- straight as arrow. built in amplifiers distort at higher volume though.Mostly because of 2Ohm speakers all around. poor chip amp in HU can`t handle more than 8W without distorting as hell.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

Exactly, that's why I was telling Phil to test his OEM HU first.... :worried:



Victor_inox said:


> I think you people full of **** blaming basic HU. Toy HU does NOTHING to the sound, no alteration at all, I measured 2012 4runner HU. not Entune,not JBL, just basic- straight as arrow. built in amplifiers distort at higher volume though.Mostly because of 2Ohm speakers all around. poor chip amp in HU can`t handle more than 8W without distorting as hell.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I think Phil just looking for justification of starting messing with head units.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> if the head unit is not putting it out, I can't grab it no matter how much a tuner tweaks the 360.3 dsp.


If that is the case you have to grab it from different places to build a full range


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> I think you people full of **** blaming basic HU. Toy HU does NOTHING to the sound, no alteration at all, I measured 2012 4runner HU. not Entune,not JBL, just basic- straight as arrow. built in amplifiers distort at higher volume though.Mostly because of 2Ohm speakers all around. poor chip amp in HU can`t handle more than 8W without distorting as hell.



There is surely a LOT of differences between head units of different year models...But get this...

The Basic in the newer Highlanders is made by Pioneer, the one step up model which still is NOT a JBL or amped unit, and I think adds 1 or 2 functions more is made by Panasonic and does sound very different. 

So saying Toyota does nothing is very much a pointless blanketed statement, when the same year same model car, but a slightly different trim level uses an entirely different MFG for the head unit and IS a different sounding output.

I think Toy went totally low quality crap level on the LE Basic Entune.

And if use a OEM HU and you want to make a system, as suggested, you better check the output, or do a simple harness adapter and swap it out to see if you can hear anything, at the least(if you cant test the output).


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

claydo said:


> Factory head units seem to all have funky signal manipulation, be it volume controlled eq, rolled off frequencies, or full on dsp internally......I have seen many folks running factory to external dsp, but I have never seen a switch to aftermarket not offer a dramatic, obvious improvement, usually garnering a facepalm from the person who owns it.......lol. I hate seeing factory radios being so tied in with the operation of modern cars, because I ALWAYS snatch that bish out.....I've also witnessed many folks getting all twisted up wondering why all their premium gear sounds like **** attached to their factory radio.....often blaming speakers, amps, or tune.......


Yeah this is one of the reasons I leave the built-in stereo alone, and I install a second one alongside it. I'm a control freak and I don't want the stupid head unit to make arbitrary changes to the sound.

And I also want to preserve the resale value of the car; when I sell my cars I rip out the aftermarket stereo and the stock stereo is still there, untouched.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Yeah this is one of the reasons I leave the built-in stereo alone, and I install a second one alongside it. I'm a control freak and I don't want the stupid head unit to make arbitrary changes to the sound.
> 
> And I also want to preserve the resale value of the car; when I sell my cars I rip out the aftermarket stereo and the stock stereo is still there, untouched.


Crux makes a harness for this model that keeps all functions. when you get rid of the car, unplug and replug your old system. Done! But I hear ya on the control thing...


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## GCVIC (Dec 29, 2015)

Hi All. After reading this thread I became almost 100% that I needed to replace my oem head unit. Currently I have my oem head unit low level signal output spliced and running directly to a Jbl MS8. 

However, please look at the frequency graphs about half way down on this link
- post at the 03-21-2010 mark:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...3-2010-hyundai-genesis-coupe-build-log-7.html

What are your thoughts on this? Will replacing my own with a pioneer/alpine or other top end aftermarket head unit make a significant difference in SQ?

Thanks for your thoughts on this!


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

EXACTLY!!!

And honestly, this is a rookie mistake to think the HU doesn't alter much. this was standard years ago. 
I would have changed the HU from the get go if it wasn't for number of people I thought to be "tuners" telling me that the new cars have good output HUnits..

Its not that easy though(when you don't have a wide level of experience), as not all head units are the same. Some OEM's are just fine, but ones like mine are worse than Jay's. I too had low output signal, AND the volume differences changing frequencies. Car MFG's do this so you don't blow your speakers in warranty/at the least, and so it doesn't sound like poop, as the speakers cannot handle the output.

When Toyota, or Kai, etc are making millions of cars all those HUnits cost a lot of money, so they have people like Pioneer etc design a bare bottom cost system. Thats what you end up with. Except when they do this some higher end models also suffer, as they keep the low end units and just add amps and such on top to improve.

So if this doesn't tell you to change the HU (considering if you tested yours), then you keep believing what you want to believe...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1288938-post301.html


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

GCVIC said:


> Hi All. After reading this thread I became almost 100% that I needed to replace my oem head unit. Currently I have my oem head unit low level signal output spliced and running directly to a Jbl MS8.
> 
> However, please look at the frequency graphs about half way down on this link
> - post at the 03-21-2010 mark:
> ...


If you set the MS-8 correctly. No. It wipes out everything the HU does.


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## motomech (Nov 12, 2014)

The graphs in GCVIC's post do not look that bad.
Remember When I asked Mapletech (pro audio guy) about FR he said flat and full range with the exception of a bump at low freq.
Same HU as yours.
Did your installer use an LOC with your DSP?
Not sure this is necessary or optimum.
Did either your first or second tuner mention a problem with the FR coming from the HU?
They would have observed this early on.
Just throwing that out there that the possibility remains that you simply had two tuners that could not do the job properly.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Jay's doesn't look so bad, I agree. 
But mine I would think was considerably worse. I also exhibited the same volume freq changes he did. 
The DSP has high level input stack. I used the Low RCA's with the new headunit.
Just the output difference from OEM to the Pioneer was huge. 

Mapletech may not have checked freq at different volumes. (Updated)_His OEM HU is NOT the same. He has the one made by Panasonic for the higher trim line, but non-JBL._
I have the OEM head unit sitting here. I will be HAPPY to do any test you want with it that I can do.(I might have the tools for it). I can take it to a shop, etc.

DDF: If you set the MS8 or other DSP correctly, it will try and boost the low signals and normalize the overloaded ones, and some try and clean up the signal as best as possible. Its not going to bi-pass the DAC and reimage the sound as if it was grabbing the signal from the internal output signal. It still grabs it from what it outputs and tries to work with that.

Motomech, you are in Socal, so am I....
How hard would it be to show you with my setup and swap it and you tell me if you think any DSP is going to make enough a difference to even be compared?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't know what to tell you Phil. You had something wrong. No other way around it. Full range is full range. If it's corrected on the input side it will be corrected. Have you ever thought about the tuner just not being good? It will sound different to you now, it hasn't been processed yet.


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

I Do believe my Non JBL Entune head unit in my Tundra does have a terrible signal. 
That was one of the biggest complaints on the Tundra forums when the 2014s came out.
All that swapped out for an aftermarket head unit noted a night and day difference. 
I do believe I will be working towards swapping out the head unit soon.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Also Phil,
It's not boosting. It's correcting. Big difference, it's not adding to something that's not there.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I don't think I have a 1-off bad unit. 
I do think these OEM's are bad. And 2014 maybe a year they skimped out, and Toyota DOES share a LOT of tech across their models.
So this Tundra report Bminus speaks of, does correlate with my findings. 

Any links for us Bminus?

Yes, I understand about correcting vs boosting. Though you have the option with gains, but to normalize is not to boost, true. And part of my point is, that a dsp can't "recover" something that isn't there.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I don't think I have a 1-off bad unit.
> I do think these OEM's are bad. And 2014 maybe a year they skimped out, and Toyota DOES share a LOT of tech across their models.
> So this Tundra report Bminus speaks of, does correlate with my findings.
> 
> ...


It's there. It doesn't just erase it with the filter. If it even has one. Some just let the speakers roll off.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Talking to the RF tech today, he suggested to use a CD in the OEM head unit, and then use the DSP's Aux input as a source and see how they differ. That way you know what expectation you might get from the AutoEQ/Normalization the DSP does, and the output volt difference. He said mainly some lower end HUNits, the output can be very low. He suggested to stay with the aftermarket HU.


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## GCVIC (Dec 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> If you set the MS-8 correctly. No. It wipes out everything the HU does.


I may need to reread and/or take this back to the jblms8 thread. Like Jay, I take the low level signal volume off the oem head unit that feeds to the dsp/jblms8. When autocalibrating with the jblms8, however, the oem head unit volume knob level is not considered and can be at any level including '0' during autocalibration - the jblms8 must be assuming an oem volume level, likely around the 2volt range I'm only guessing. Given the frequency response is oem volume dependent, as long as I set my oem level to about the same level during calibration, I can use the jblms8 volume control, and it should be decent.

Then I came across this thread, and frankly started re questioning my decision not to upgrade my head unit. I guess, if anything, an aftermarket head unit would allow me set the jblms8 volume and use my head unit volume knob. 

I'm not sure I completely understand the boosting vs. correcting and relevance to my oem head unit and jblms8.

I lose some car functionality (i.e climate display, etc) if I remove my oem head unit, and I could use the money to put towards a new sub:http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...259746-subwoofer-upgrade-jl-w3-versus-w6.html

I just want to be almost 100% that I'm not spending all these bucks on my system if my head unit is suspect!


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

More than a lot of people build amazing sounding setups around a stock head unit. Enjoy what you have. 

The MS-8 itself has one many rewards on stock headunits. 
You do have to find the happy spot between MS-8 volume and deck volume. 
Example. I keep my deck at 20/30 and use the MS-8 remote. 
Or I keep the MS-8 at -10 and use the HUs volume 0-25/30
Both work the same


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks Mr fusion......I've got to hold on to that lil nugget for a while, truly sig worthy........lmao.


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## motomech (Nov 12, 2014)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Jay's doesn't look so bad, I agree.
> But mine I would think was considerably worse. I also exhibited the same volume freq changes he did.
> The DSP has high level input stack. I used the Low RCA's with the new headunit.
> Just the output difference from OEM to the Pioneer was huge.
> ...


Phil,
I am traveling a bit at the moment but would at some point like to hear your setup.
I will send you my contact info when things slow down.
There are ways to check FR of your stock head unit if you are so inclined.
You seem to have a good ear and if you are truly happy with the out of the box sound of your Pioneer why mess with it?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

claydo said:


> Thanks Mr fusion......I've got to hold on to that lil nugget for a while, truly sig worthy........lmao.


A spell check typo makes your day? 
You have a pathetic exsistance.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> A spell check typo makes your day?
> You have a pathetic exsistance.


Way more than a simple spelling error going on there......as a matter of a fact, I never believed one line could so simply sum up the wholeness of a person.........


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> A spell check typo makes your day?
> You have a pathetic exsistance.


So how come spell check didn't catch that??


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

claydo said:


> Way more than a simple spelling error going on there......as a matter of a fact, I never believed one line could so simply sum up the wholeness of a person.........


You don't think they have? 
Oh too be so feeble minded.


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

I also set my MS8 at -10 and use the HU volume knob. Am I losing SQ? I have no idea, but its a whole lot easier to use the volume on my steering wheel than to reach for a remote while driving.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

motomech said:


> Phil,
> I am traveling a bit at the moment but would at some point like to hear your setup.
> I will send you my contact info when things slow down.
> There are ways to check FR of your stock head unit if you are so inclined.
> You seem to have a good ear and if you are truly happy with the out of the box sound of your Pioneer why mess with it?


Ya, no sense now. The Entune would take long for the BluTooth to connect and now its instant, it has full functionality with AndroidAuto and CarPlay (as my wife uses iOS). The screen and everything is nice and responsive. On the OEM I only used the volume knob, so there are no hardkeys I'm missing. The screen is at least an inch larger with lots of customization DVD with a simple bipass I put in, and the output quality is the main thing, while all these other things are the positive icing. I think the Entune is a very easy to use interface and I think its the best designed OEM one out there. But many people have a number of functioning issues with it reported on the forum.

If I did manage to DeEQ and had a correct sum out and the signal was corrected, I don't know what I would do? Live with changing volume from the DSP remote?, The bad cell connection that had me constantly disconnect, and reconnect at stop lights, text reading that took a while to do, no video(Needs a expensive bipass). I could live with those things. But considering the 4100nex is about $500, install about another $200, and the wires another $100....If it wasn't for SQ, and considering the time....I might not have done it. But having said that, I'm glad I did  

Since I have the head unit and the DeEQ/summing is the faster part of the process to get a full signal, I'd still want to see the difference. Besides with the Aux input, you don't need to swap HUnits. 

Checking the head unit, and now thinking if the tuner did the summing correctly...At least it would tell me if I through the $500+ in tuning into thin air, or did they actually do it right/? I have a weird feeling DDFusion maybe right and they might not have don't the summiing correctly. (now that I have taken hours reading and watching the little things that could have been missed. But increasing the weak signal, from say a less than 1 volt to a 4volt, ...is that the DSP's job as well? And how clean can that boost /gain be?


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Just FYI I _think_ this post by Andy Wehmeyer goes to several of the questions above about how the MS-8 works vis-à-vis input levels (both low and high level) and use of HU vs MS-8 volume control.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1073797-post3690.html

^click the thread link at that post to be able to scroll up/down a bit to see more context for that discussion .... lots of good info about the basic workings of the MS-8 in those 'early days' of the megathread, small bits which were endlessly repeated over the years but usually with less explanation/context.

Again, the main thing is that Phil is happy with his new setup ! Congrats, Phil !


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

OEM head units almost ALL have DSP in them nowadays. I work closely with some of the folks who tune them for Ford - they have a specific target curve and constantly fight an up-hill battle against budgeting, marketing, weight/fuel economy groups, assembly process, etc. 

That being said, with my last two vehicles I was able to defeat the factory settings (remove crossover filters, remove parametric eq, remove channel delays/ta - obtain a pure flat-line; setting output level to pre-amp not amplified as well). The OEM head unit _CAN_ be very clean/good - just that most OEM won't help you get it there... *DDFusion is full of crap* if he thinks his Ford OEM is giving him 20-20K though, I know for a FACT that any Ford system since 2005 will have a 12db crossover filter cutting the low end at the very least to combat the cabin gain at or around 70 hz (somewhat dependent on specific vehicle).

In the car before the one I'm driving now, I used too used an MS-8 - I had a lot of difficulty getting it right but when I finally did (special props to Andy/this forum on that btw) I found I did not like a lot of the auto-tune stuff and now I'm progressing through my next build still sing the OEM head unit but with my own processing/amplification. I'm happy to share my experience(s) with those interested but I'm both limited in terms of experience (solely with Ford specifically) and also somewhat restricted with regards to what information I may be allowed to share


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

unix_usr said:


> OEM head units almost ALL have DSP in them nowadays. I work closely with some of the folks who tune them for Ford - they have a specific target curve and constantly fight an up-hill battle against budgeting, marketing, weight/fuel economy groups, assembly process, etc.
> 
> That being said, with my last two vehicles I was able to defeat the factory settings (remove crossover filters, remove parametric eq, remove channel delays/ta - obtain a pure flat-line; setting output level to pre-amp not amplified as well). The OEM head unit _CAN_ be very clean/good - just that most OEM won't help you get it there... *DDFusion is full of crap* if he thinks his Ford OEM is giving him 20-20K though, I know for a FACT that any Ford system since 2005 will have a 12db crossover filter cutting the low end at the very least to combat the cabin gain at or around 70 hz (somewhat dependent on specific vehicle).
> 
> In the car before the one I'm driving now, I used too used an MS-8 - I had a lot of difficulty getting it right but when I finally did (special props to Andy/this forum on that btw) I found I did not like a lot of the auto-tune stuff and now I'm progressing through my next build still sing the OEM head unit but with my own processing/amplification. I'm happy to share my experience(s) with those interested but I'm both limited in terms of experience (solely with Ford specifically) and also somewhat restricted with regards to what information I may be allowed to share


I guess the RTA is full of crap


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

I drive a 13 Ford Focus and have plans to put the factory 6 speaker system/head unit on the RTA VERY soon. Waiting for a colleague to return from a business trip with some equipment.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So what y'all think is I shouldn't be able to play 20hz?


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

DDfusion said:


> So what y'all think is I shouldn't be able to play 20hz?


Not **completely** unable to ... you're missing the point of what a crossover slope does here  put your volume down low - measure a sweep, put the volume up high (passed the point of auto-loudness; 20-ish on most units) and do the same sweep/same measurement - you'll see a drastic difference.

Having owned, installed, and used an MS-8 in a 2013 ford fusion myself - I can say from experience that the MS-8 cannot un-eq accross the range of the factory volume. I spent quite a bit of time trying before ultimately giving up and altering the factory DSP to defeat the filtering. Even then, I ended up using the volume on the MS-8 via the remote and keeping the factory volume fixed.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> .... I know for a FACT that any Ford system since 2005 will have a 12db crossover filter cutting the low end at the very least to combat the cabin gain at or around 70 hz (somewhat dependent on specific vehicle)....


Are you suggesting that the spectrum is _*eliminated*_ or that it is *seriously attenuated* somewhere below 70Hz? There is a difference between the two.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

unix_usr said:


> Not **completely** unable to ... you're missing the point of what a crossover slope does here  put your volume down low - measure a sweep, put the volume up high (passed the point of auto-loudness; 20-ish on most units) and do the same sweep/same measurement - you'll see a drastic difference.
> 
> Having owned, installed, and used an MS-8 in a 2013 ford fusion myself - I can say from experience that the MS-8 cannot un-eq accross the range of the factory volume. I spent quite a bit of time trying before ultimately giving up and altering the factory DSP to defeat the filtering. Even then, I ended up using the volume on the MS-8 via the remote and keeping the factory volume fixed.


To my ears. There is no difference in using the ms-8 remote with the set volume and just using the HU volume. I use the remote anyway, so yes I have a fully corrected full range.


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

DDfusion said:


> To my ears. There is no difference in using the ms-8 remote with the set volume and just using the HU volume. I use the remote anyway, so yes I have a fully corrected full range.


Do you happen to have a can of the magic smoke you installed in your MS-8 to do that? Cause I went back and forth for weeks trying to get it right, working with Andy (who designed the MS-8 working for Harmon) and that's not how the un-eq function of the MS-8 works - when you set it up it takes readings at a set volume played from the calibration cd.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

unix_usr said:


> Do you happen to have a can of the magic smoke you installed in your MS-8 to do that? Cause I went back and forth for weeks trying to get it right, working with Andy (who designed the MS-8 working for Harmon) and that's not how the un-eq function of the MS-8 works - when you set it up it takes readings at a set volume played from the calibration cd.


Andy has already stated what the ms-8 does on the inputs. You might want to read everything he has said about all of this. 

That might be better than some guy you don't know saying stuff on a forum.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

unix_usr said:


> Do you happen to have a can of the magic smoke you installed in your MS-8 to do that? Cause I went back and forth for weeks trying to get it right, working with Andy (who designed the MS-8 working for Harmon) and that's not how the un-eq function of the MS-8 works - when you set it up it takes readings at a set volume played from the calibration cd.


Dude, save yer breath. He is incapable of learning or processing anything, he is always right, and knows all....lmao.


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

FordEscape said:


> Are you suggesting that the spectrum is _*eliminated*_ or that it is *seriously attenuated* somewhere below 70Hz? There is a difference between the two.


Attenuated not completely eliminated - crossover slope is usually 12db/octave. 

Most cars will experience a "cabin gain", Ford in particular (I've spoken with two of the gentlemen responsible who do this day in and day out) measures and corrects specific vehicle cabin gains using a combination of EQ and filtering; thus they absolutely do alter the output signal variably (dependent on vehicle, options, etc). When DDFusion states he gets full 20-20K output, that's certainly possible - my point is that depending on level the degree at which he will get that response varies drastically. Especially so at or below 70hz give-or-take. That being said - I am still talking electronically here - measured acoustically is a different story, given that these filters/adjustments are done to meet a specific target curve.

DDFusion - if you have access to a scope - tap the input to your MS-8. Use a tone generator - set the volume in your Ford ACM to ~ 20 or so - play a 40hz tone, dial it in on the scope and note the voltage output level. Leaving all things the same, change that tone to 1000hz now - you will see a difference in the level of output from the stock Ford ACM.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> ... *DDFusion is full of crap* if he thinks his Ford OEM is giving him 20-20K though...





unix_usr said:


> ..... When DDFusion states he gets full 20-20K output, that's certainly possible - my point is ....


Well, at least you did correct and clarify yourself, but man, that's some pretty sloppy posting there, both from the standpoint of personal attack and from the standpoint of providing complete and useful information.

Please, consider more thought before you post, you're damaging your rep as well as giving mis-information by omission and lack of important detail. It's just not cool to qualify your 'absolute' statements, especially calling someone "full of crap", after-the-fact.

Please.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

hahaha


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

IF DDF would be more informative and simply share more than what he says, which is along the lines of.."Hahaha, I got it and I'm not telling you where or how"...I think it would be great.

Its hard to deal with that in a forum. Specially when you know he is in the business and a major part, if not all, from my assessment, is for him to increase business here, not to help. I'm sure he has answered a direct question at some point. I'm just not aware of it. The over all answer would be that he is doing it right, while you are not.

The only reason I come up with that conclusion is due to the number of threads of DDF's and his contribution to them. Like It said. His finding can be there or not.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

If you say so. I got a 8 doing mid 130s 35-45hz. If it's being cut short I think I'm ok. 
In a trunk with the solid seat up


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Just to add. When I had the SS set at 25hz I had to back the EQ off 10db so my 32hz tuned woofer wouldn't jump the gap playing 27hz drops


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> IF DDF would be more informative and simply share more than what he says, which is along the lines of.."Hahaha, I got it and I'm not telling you where or how"...I think it would be great.
> 
> Its hard to deal with that in a forum. Specially when you know he is in the business and a major part, if not all, from my assessment, is for him to increase business here, not to help. I'm sure he has answered a direct question at some point. I'm just not aware of it. The over all answer would be that he is doing it right, while you are not.
> 
> The only reason I come up with that conclusion is due to the number of threads of DDF's and his contribution to them. Like It said. His finding can be there or not.


Lol there is nothing to say. I read the manual and followed the steps. There's no magic formula. This isn't rocket science. 
I answer plenty of direct questions. 
What annoys me is the fact if somebody can't do something or had bad results when others haven't had the same... Ok, maybe you did it wrong. 
Seems like people want to push thier reality when if they just read Andy's thread it would be said to them by someone other than me. 
If the MS-8 didn't correct the responce than it would not have done so good in countless setups. 
I can't talk for the RF and Audisons DE-EQ. Or the JLs. 

I can say there are some Output RTAs showing before and after the Clean sweep on JLs FB page. They where last year sometimes on Eric Cole's Honda. I'll see if he still has them. That should end this idiot thread.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Anything would help if you can find it...



> What annoys me is the fact if somebody can't do something or had bad results when others haven't had the same... Ok, maybe you did it wrong.


This is what I mean...
SURE...maybe it was done wrong. But you saying I got mine right, without any workable info is just a little salt on the problem instead of some info, or a link on something, or place to look.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Anything would help if you can find it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That wasn't directed toward you Phil. You know how to talk to people.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

got ya.

It can very well be that the tuner that did my DSP setup may have messed up and not summed the channels correctly/? possible.
I'm not saying he did, but that is the one step that I can see someone mess up, as its a manual process to tell the DSP which channels need to be summed. For this you need to ID your high/mid/low. I wasn't arround to see that part. I can load his file and see what he summed. I can also RTA the channels to see if they are correct. But for someone like me, I can spend 1-2 days that I don't want to give up doing this.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I hope these 2 pictures clean all this up. 
This is a stock Honda Fit. 
Measured the signal. 
One is stock one is corrected using the JL fix82. Same concept as the De-EQ and corrections. 
It shows 20-20k. Enjoy


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Corrected.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Btw Claydope
Go ahead and quote that


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Ok, so how does the MS8 take a less than 2volt signal and boost it? And what does it boost it up until? What is the output volts on the OEM head?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Ok, so how does the MS8 take a less than 2volt signal and boost it? And what does it boost it up until? What is the output volts on the OEM head?


With a DSP it only needs a signal. With software based DSPs like yours you set the preout voltage per channel. It don't care what's coming in as long as it's getting what it needs. A signal


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Claydope....lmao, I like it. I can see I'm working with a real deep thinker. Why ya still baiting me for confrontation, ain't got anything else to do?


:buuuuuuuurrrp: ugh, you give me heartburn.....


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Ok, so how does the MS8 take a less than 2volt signal and boost it? And what does it boost it up until? What is the output volts on the OEM head?


Phil, please see the detailed explanation by Andy in the link at this post, it specifically answers your question .... MS-8 doesn't boost the nominal input signal, doesn't matter what the HU nominal output voltage is ....

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/3552393-post62.html

Yeah, there's probably a limit to MS-8's ability to 'un-eq'. But Andy's explained in other posts that the un-eq algoritm was designed after testing a slew of OEM HU's. Please see

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1267917-post4682.html

It seems to me that a recurrent theme in Andy's explanations of the MS-8 is that it does a very good job of processing _most_ HU input signals to output signals that, while perhaps not 'accurate to the nth degree' as measured by instrumentation, is so accurate that it's shortcomings are impreceptable to _most_ listeners (talking about the output signal quality, not the sound quality after passing through post-DSP amps, speakers and the vehicle environment). But he's also always said GIGO, so even if your HU outut signal covers 20-20kHz, if it is distorted you're screwed no matter what.

Yes, the word "most" is used several times in that. Any particular HU or any particular listener _may_ be the exception; maybe some actually can perceive a very small dB deviation from 'absolute accuracy' in a music track, but from what I've read on this forum and other sources about hearing perception those are rare people indeed.

Would a perfectly flat pre-amp input to a DSP that requires no un-eq be "more perfect" than not? Sure. Can the vast majority of listeners actually perceive the shortcomings of a well-designed un-eq system when listening to music in the real car audio environment ... well, I suppose that's the subject of this, ahem, "discussion" and the answer lies in the ear/brain of the beholder.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

reading things now. thanks for re-posting!


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

No worries, hope it's informative.

FYI (and realizing this isn't an MS-8 thread) to the extent you're interested in the workings of the MS-8, the PDF document linked here may be helpful

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2238063-post10558.html

Easier to search than the mega-thread, IMHO, and only covers through post 10165, but most of the info posted by Andy about the 'workings' of MS-8 are before that cutoff. My failure to not keep post links in that document, but if you copy a long section of text from that to google it'll get you to the page in the forum thread so you can see the context of Q's and comments by others.

(and yes, my system has come a looong way since that described in the post linked above, that was before MS amps, HAT and SI)


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

No interest in the MS8, but it kinda tells me a bit that it is possible the Tuner might have not summed or did something ...Or my HUnit is one of those that is pretty bad


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

As I've said before, the bottom-line is that you're happy (at least happier ;-) now and that's all that counts! Congrats, I'm happy for ya !

To the extent this discussion (absent the personal aspects) contributes to a better understanding of the possiblitites of 'building on' at least some OEM HU's, that strikes me as beneficial, too.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I really do want to change my HU, but I can't. Not for SQ reasons but to just have a more modern interface.


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

FordEscape said:


> Phil, please see the detailed explanation by Andy in the link at this post, it specifically answers your question .... MS-8 doesn't boost the nominal input signal, doesn't matter what the HU nominal output voltage is ....
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/3552393-post62.html
> 
> ...


This is why I feel I need an aftermarket unit.. It's possible that my specific head unit has certain characteristics that the MS8 may not be able to account for and either cuts or boosts too much in the UNEQ and then the regular calibration, resulting in a problem with the final outcome. 
Like I said before it sounds better than any system I have ever had, but if a $300-500 head unit will make a night and day difference in the final outcome then I'm all for it. Plus it would give me the option of one day swapping out the MS8 for a manual processor. 
Quick question and off topic: How does the Pioneer AVH x5800BHS compare to the 4100 NEX sound quality wise? I've been searching and searching but can't find the answer to that question.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Regard the head units...
There is a Youtube vid 5StarStereo puts out, and I think in a thread mentions the DAC and some wiring/circuitry is a better than the non-nex line.


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

I do believe I've seen that video. They compare the 4800, 5800 and 4100NEX, but they never mention actual sound quality. However, all things being equal I may go ahead and get the 4100 just because it has Car Play or whatever its called.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

If you highly value the mapping/Apple maps, or Google map for Android, I would get it. 

I have both a iPhone and Adroid phone, and they are both very limited of what you can do. No video play, no NOTHING. just map music some text and talk to the software to answer some stuff.
It basically makes a "transition" of some apps to be on the hunit screen, and its OK. Surely not great or worth much.
Once the honeymoon of "I got my screen to show up the map in full view on the stereo" is over, it pretty much sucks. Voice to text is pretty nice too, but all this is available on your phone.

It would be cool if they gave it some open functionality.

Someone needs to jailbreack the 2 limiters and have the phone work as you want. I don't know who designed these things or why, but they can actually hinder safety, as you know the tech is capable and you fumble about to get things to work but your restricted.I'm not sure who took the crown on how you interface with your car stereo, but I don't see some waiter sitting next to you and swatting you hand with the burger in it, your still eating while driving, and what ever else. How dummied down do we have to make people for them not to think about what is safe and unsafe. Is cell texting a problem. Majorly so, but I think the statistics have shown and put people on alert enough where now a days its quite less, and hopefully even more so later.....
But we are so focused on making zombies instead of thinking people. If we gave the right and full information, people can actually process it. The rest will take care of its self.


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> If you highly value the mapping/Apple maps, or Google map for Android, I would get it.
> 
> I have both a iPhone and Adroid phone, and they are both very limited of what you can do. No video play, no NOTHING. just map music some text and talk to the software to answer some stuff.
> It basically makes a "transition" of some apps to be on the hunit screen, and its OK. Surely not great or worth much.
> ...


soooooooooo sounds like car play isnt all its cracked up to be lol. 
In that case I mean lean more toward the 5800 in order to save money.. I mean its a major improvement to the OEM head unit either way. Aside from losing the nav, which i never use...


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Looks up screen mirroring. You can do it with the Pioneer's and both the iPhone or Android. And that's all I'm gonna say on that.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Why is it all your gonna say? Is there some secret to this? What have you found working for you? Does it require a app? I see it on my screen. I use it often with the ipad and my home tv...but sure, I guess the NEX version can do it. Perhaps the others can too?


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Because it becomes a hazard while driving and I'm not going to be a part of it. Really not going to get into that argument either. Just know that it is possible with a small amount of research online. Please use responsibly.


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## Proboscis (Mar 15, 2016)

I have 2015 CM that got demolished by hail yesterday. tagging along here. I can't stand the 2015 entune stocker it's garbage. Planning stages for a proper swap then disaster struck. Any help on harness used to keep factory steering wheel controls and back up cam?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Yes, using the Crux model that ends with 61N might be the one you need. Other Toy models use it. It gives you everything(steering, rearcam, etc) except for the stock mic to work. I wanted to splice into the wire to make it work, but apparently Pioneer mic is a much better stereo type of mix and sounds better, so I'm about to put that in.

Anyone know if I can prewire for a dashcam before I select the model I want? Do they have power and rca, or what ever inputs plug in or are they hardwired?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

What I have issues with is the Axxess AWSC1 that is SUPPOSED to integrate all steering functions....NOT
No Pause, no FWD/Seek within a song, and no back to HOME screen. My steering has these and Axxess CANNOT do them.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

What vehicle? Check out the Maestro SW.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

2014/15/16 Highlander

This says good for Toy, but not for Pioneer. It claims integration with Alpine, Kenwood and JVC

Really annoying, since I already went through hell to get the wires to fit behind the head unit, and its a pain to remove and redo.


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

I recently measured the factory system in my 2014 GMC Sierra w/ Bose. This is the response via voltage measurements straight from OEM amp. These were taken at low volume and then I measured at high volume. I have to convert the high volume voltage measurements to a lower voltage and re-input them, so at this time I am still not sure if the Frequency Response is volume dependent.








[/URL][/IMG]


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I think in GM and, or Ford perhaps solely, you can turn OFF the Auto volume feature.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

You can turn off auto volume adjust in mylink


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I think in GM and, or Ford perhaps solely, you can turn OFF the Auto volume feature.


Just FYI in my 2005 Ford F150 and 2014 Ford Escape I can defeat the speed-dependent auto volume control from the HU menu.

However, I cannot defeat the volume-dependent varying EQ (the factor brumledb appears trying to quantify on his GM) from the menu of course.

None of my cars has a system that 'mics' cabin noise and adjusts the audio volume/EQ based on that (as do some late-model cars).

FWIW I'm now in possession of a 'reprogrammed' replacement ACM (Audio Control Module, the closest thing to the "HU" in that car) for my '14 Ford Escape which is supposed to have all volume-dependent EQ defeated.

I'm working to quantify that with a 'scope for both my OEM ACM and the reprogrammed ACM. Intending to document my findings, 'scope screen shots, etc in a dedicated thread with all the info on the reprogramming service I used, I'll insert a link to that here FYI when I get it done.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> 2014/15/16 Highlander
> 
> This says good for Toy, but not for Pioneer. It claims integration with Alpine, Kenwood and JVC
> 
> Really annoying, since I already went through hell to get the wires to fit behind the head unit, and its a pain to remove and redo.


Page 14 of the ASWC manual shows you how to do dual button assignments. As in, long press to activate a different function. Not sure if you've tried that or will do what you want.

The ADS Maestro SW makes programming SOOO easy by comparison. It's all done on a computer.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I wish I went with Maestro to begin with.

I tried reading page 14, then called tech to help explain in what order and context I need to do XYZ, and they "disconnected 2 times on the phone, and the last time I spoke to the same tech, he explained that it is not possible to do Home, FFWD, REW, Mute, or other functions.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Metra's tech support is a flippin joke.

Let me guess, they also told you to update the firmware on the ASWC? Every friggin time I call them, they just tell me to update the firmware on whatever Axxess module I'm installing and say any problems must be due to installer error. Look bud. I've installed probably 300 GMOS-04 modules and I've got enough experience with Axxess products to know they're pretty damn dodgy. And once you compare the Axxess offering for a vehicle vs another company's offering, you quickly realize the Axxess is designed like **** through and through.

/rant


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## maximus5403 (Aug 19, 2010)

My GT-R had the Bose system which did not clip at full volume, but the pre-amp voltage was only 1 volt, and the high level output of the factory amp required so much EQing it couldn't get it right. I'm installing an iPad in my dash and a Bit Play HD, so I can get the most out of my setup. An aftermarket head unit isn't really an option in a GT-R since all of the digital gauges run through the factory setup.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

They are a joke of a support, and I just realized , so is the product! I purchased 2 faceplate/dashkits, and the American International is MUCH better made and looks better than the Metra. 

I will do my best to avoid Metra, and maybe use them as a last resort.

How stupid that cars now and more so integrate the cars functions with the stereo
Sorry to here a 70-100K car can't have that sorted out...worse to know as some others the signal is crap, 1VOLT, is what my Highlander was also putting out. A dam sham!


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

OK, a _quantified_ case study of _one_ OEM HU ....
2014 Ford Escape Non-Sony HU (No OEM external amp, No OEM external DSP as original).
The "source file" is a 20Hz-20kHz wav generated using Audacity, copied to USB media for playback through the Escape audio system.
The spectrum plots were done at 6 different volume settings from 3/25 to maximum volume 25/25 'tics' on the HU volume scale.
The test instrument is a USB PicoScope 2204A with the 1x probe on the left front speaker-level output for spectrum plots; two probes connected to front L&R speaker-level for TA testing (connected at the HU outputs before the signal enters the JBL MS-8).
All tests run with the HU speaker-level outputs connected to JBL MS-8 inputs to present a 'load'; the downstream MS-series amp outputs were turned to 'zero' to save my ears and drivers.
Results of the spectrum tests

The HU reproduces the full 20Hz - 20kHz spectrum, no problem
The HU definitely applies a varying EQ curve based on volume
Not included is a 'clipping' test run with 50Hz and 1kHz test tones. No clipping was observed at any volume level including maximum 25/25 with either tone.
















This 'basic' HU, even though lacking and external amp/DSP has user-selectable "Occupancy Settings". I used both 'scope channels connected to the front left and right outputs to concurrently plot a 'click test' (file generated by Audacity again) to see if any TA was applied.

Result of click test
When set for "driver only" occupancy the system does impose TA
When set for "All Seats" occupancy the system does not impose TA










Certainly not all OEM HU's are the same, but I hope that this actual data goes to at least some of the questions/points raised by the OP and subsequent contributors.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Great post!
I wonder what the volts out are on that HU?

Also, this is a slight confusion on my part, so I'll ask about it...

When you play a CD which is digital, the reader/head/laser picks up the data and converts it to an analog signal done in the HUNit, and sends this out in a output /volt signal that the amplifier boosts, and out to the speakers they go....

...Am I right or did I confuse something? 
(and would the same be for a USB stick?)


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> ...I wonder what the volts out are on that HU? ....


I'd have to re-run the test with volts as the units rather than dBu (can't do that 'after the fact' conversion with PicoScope as far as I can tell) but using this converter dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbf ....

At the 25/25 volume level:
at the peak (20Hz) 19dBu = 6.9VRMS = 19.5Volts (p-p)




Phil Indeblanc said:


> ...Also, this is a slight confusion on my part, so I'll ask about it...
> 
> When you play a CD which is digital, the reader/head/laser picks up the data and converts it to an analog signal done in the HUNit, and sends this out in a output /volt signal that the amplifier boosts, and out to the speakers they go....
> 
> ...


Certainly, the speaker output is analog. _Any_ 'digital' source (CD ROM or any other digital media like the USB or SD card that my system accepts) is converted to analog _somewhere_ within the HU. Whether that D>A conversion occurs before or after any "EQ" , "TA" or "amplification" is applied is, I think, determined by wholly the design of the component, as most any 'manipulation' can be done on a digital or analog signal.

I wouldn't hazard a guess about how it is done specifically in my HU. Not sure how the 'location' of the D>A conversion in the process bears on anything, _if_ that's what you're thinking .... can you share the underlying thought so maybe someone else can enlighten us both?

Oh, and the PicoScope, I'm pretty sure, converts the analog input signal to digital to generate the analyses it conducts and then represents as an analog wave-form on the screen (just to add to the confusion  )


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Nice post but you've gotta make those charts bigger man. I can't ready squat on em.

And I'm doing the same tests with the Ford Focus, probably this weekend. No microphone, hooked directly to the speaker outputs, just like yours. I'll post em up.

EDIT: Somehow I got into your photobucket. Clicking the magnify makes them all large. Doing it within the message board does not.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

firebirdude said:


> Nice post but you've gotta make those charts bigger man. I can't ready squat on em.
> 
> And I'm doing the same tests with the Ford Focus, probably this weekend. No microphone, hooked directly to the speaker outputs, just like yours. I'll post em up.
> 
> EDIT: Somehow I got into your photobucket. Clicking the magnify makes them all large. Doing it within the message board does not.


Yeah, sorry, I'm not 'up' on how to control the image sizes on the forum but it seems that if you click on the image it'll get ya to the photobucket original.

Will you be using a 'scope or something else grabbing the signal through a different interface? This whole oscilloscope / PicoScope thing is a new toy for me so I'm on the learning curve about how to use it as I do this 'academic exercise' of testing my HU. In spite of probably good guidance on this forum about how to do it, figuring out how to get a non-mic input into my single-audio-jack Dell laptop for viewing with REW was driving me up the wall.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

I've got some adapters to run it right into an iPad headphone/microphone port. To which, my first thought was that all iPad/cell phones are going to have the mic port rolled off big time on the bottom end. But to my surprise that is not correct. Maybe it's done via software elsewhere in the iPad before it's output wherever. But playing pink noise from a known flat (and expensive) source gives me a perfectly flat 20-20k on the screen. I then tried it on a simple JVC head unit and was able to see the results. So, we'll see on the factory Ford Focus non-Sony head unit.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

firebirdude said:


> ..... But playing pink noise from a known flat (and expensive) source gives me a perfectly flat 20-20k on the screen. .....


OK, so now I gotta ask about that (use of pink noise for this purpose of determining HU 'inherent EQ') .... 

Doesn't pink noise have a power level inverse to frequency, meaning that if you 'plot' pink noise through a perfectly 'flat' system you'll see a declining line from low-to-high frequency against either a dB or volt scale on the vertical axis? At least that's what I saw when I plotted pink noise in the test described above, even where the EQ line was "flat" using the constant 0dB sweep tone.

White noise, on the other hand, seemed to track very close to the trend shown by the 20-20kHz spectrum plots.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

FordEscape said:


> Certainly, the speaker output is analog. _Any_ 'digital' source (CD ROM or any other digital media like the USB or SD card that my system accepts) is converted to analog _somewhere_ within the HU. Whether that D>A conversion occurs before or after any "EQ" , "TA" or "amplification" is applied is, I think, determined by wholly the design of the component, as most any 'manipulation' can be done on a digital or analog signal.
> 
> I wouldn't hazard a guess about how it is done specifically in my HU. Not sure how the 'location' of the D>A conversion in the process bears on anything, _if_ that's what you're thinking .... can you share the underlying thought so maybe someone else can enlighten us both?


Yes, so with that understanding....
Simply put the DSP and amps are dealing with an VERY inferior signal. One with a cheap DAC that is mass sourced at the lowest level for the parts design to meet target profit.

Just because a HU from OEM is made by Pioneer, like mine, or SOny, or Panasonic, does not mean they are going to use the same CD head and mechanism, same DAC, same wiring that they do for the aftermarket units......NO, the contrary is proven, and mostly on economy level standard passenger cars.
Sometimes some qualities are boosted on the lower end, due to economics of production cost in things. They might use 1 type, but a good type, and use it on all models....but in these HU's it sure is not for quality parts. 

So what does it mean?

This alone can cripple the potential of a stereo system sound to have the wide stereo dispersion, and dynamic hifi sound you would hear from a quality DAC and signal. I noticed some cars at some level do use a more level quality DAC, while others are puerly crap, and still the standard of the 90's. 

You can throw any amount of quality drivers, DSP "proper" tune, amp you want, you are not going to elevate the ditch your trying to dig out of. And , you won't know until you hear the latter with a aftermarket head unit, and you wonder why it sounds so good...don't look at the components(yet)...maybe the stock unit is a good one, or maybe its an aftermarket...That maybe the differentiating factor.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

You are mostly correct. It's not that power is really inverse. Pink is equal power level 20-20k, but PER OCTAVE. Equal power within each octave. Since each octave upward from 20Hz contains more and more frequencies, you would see a graph roll off. TBH, I was working with two other people at the time and didn't have much time to play with it. Maybe he was actually playing white noise? I knew we had bought a few things to try this, helped hook everything up real quick and watched it get results on the iPad. I called the mission a success and got back to work. lol But yeah, I'll have to get after it more Thurs or Fri and figure out exactly what's going on before I turn the Focus loose on it.

And Phil, I'm not sure if you're debating or arguing with yourself....or what. Yes. We get it. We all know that. What's your point? Use a quality source unit? No isht. lol 

EDIT: Oh. I guess that's what this whole thread is about? Kinda forgot 5 pages in. Ahhhh forums.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

firebirdude said:


> ....And Phil, I'm not sure if you're debating or arguing with yourself....or what. Yes. We get it. We all know that. What's your point? Use a quality source unit? No isht. lol
> 
> EDIT: Oh. I guess that's what this whole thread is about? Kinda forgot 5 pages in. Ahhhh forums.


Lol, thanks guys for the continuing education, I am enjoying the ongoing learning here, both from the thread and from my home-brew experiments.

Staying sub'd


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

ya, kinda why I started the thread 

S U R P R I S E...
Not everybody gets it.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Considering your points raised in this post ... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/3662009-post124.html .... of course there's nothing to 'argue' in that, no reason to doubt the truth of your assessment.

So what have we learned to this point ....
_Some_ (OK, maybe most) OEM HUs are 'crippled' to varying degrees in varying ways.
Lacking input from those who have experience with a specific OEM HU in consideration, it can be difficult to determine the degree of SQ 'compromise' a particular OEM HU presents as a part of the up-front car-buying/optioning process.
Many modern OEM HUs offer 'operational conveniences' which, though not relating to SQ do play a role in car-buying decisions for at least some of us
For those whose over-riding interest is SQ, considering a car based on how easy (or possible) it is to replace the OEM HU while minimizing loss of those 'operational conveniences' may be more important than looking at the HU SQ potential when considering a car purchase.
The total HU replacement in _some_ modern highly integrated cars is fraught with pitfalls and compromise.
For others, the 'compromise' of SQ for those conveniences/OEM appearance may be the driving factor, and that's OK too.
Some aftermarket 'bolt-ons' (e.g. amps and/or DSP) may mitigate _some_ of an OEM HUs limitations, but that isn't always totally successful and may bring other compromises to the table.
Is that about correct?

FYI, the effort to 'minimize the compromise' presented by my OEM HU via a 'reprogrammed ACM' hoping for flat EQ independent of volume level has been a 'bust' (the reprogramming did not yield the hoped for flat EQ). So, we carry-on with what we've got, blissfully ignorant of the things we are missing and continuing to enjoy to undeniable improvements gained with mods to date


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

That's why I am just going going to buy an ibasso (digital audio player). It has a line out that supports both digital coaxial and mini-toslink. I will run digital from the player straight to my Helix and control volume with Director remote. 
Alternatively, another idea is just installing another h/u and mounting it in a discrete place. You still get all your OEM functions but don't actually use it as your source. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Yes, great summary FordEscape...

I wish we can create a database with stock HU output info like you have. I am willing to offer my stock Toyota HU for such data.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

But as you pointed out, more than just frequency response is 'in-play'.

Any idea how one measures the DAC performance you mentioned, for example?

While playing with the PicoScope I noted some menus with the term "THD" .... may have to go back and learn about that ... might not be possible to test lacking a way to input scope-generated tones directly into my HU as one would with a component amp ...

Yeah, I'm curious dude and a glutton for punishment ....

(don't let anyone tell you otherwise, retirement and time to play with hobbies is great ;-)


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

So where's the guy that kept saying no Ford head units output full 20-20k? I remember someone preaching that....


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I think the best way to "measure" the DAC would be to have a set bench with no variables except for the HU and listen to the differences. But you can also open up the unit and see if they use anything decent. Wolfson, Burr brown, Cirrus....Or a number of others that are of quality. Of course there are more things connected to all that which will either reduce output potential., or allow optimal "pass-thru".
..Not sure what Kenwood, Alpine Pioneer use in their HU, maybe in-house, but they are good to my ears, so anything digital then direct to the aftermarket HU DAC I think would be optimal, and in some cases down right necessary if you want hifi sound.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

OK, so more on my Ford ACM since it's still readily accessible ....

The Ford PN is CJ5T-19C107-DH; I'm "told" it is the same circuitry as the non-Sony Focus unit but 'programmed' for the Escape application. I know (BTDT) that the Escape/Focus units are physically interchangeable and all connectors are identical, but the Focus unit does not use pins that the Escape has for a "center" channel output. FYI the Focus/Escape "Sony system" ACMs are also physically identical/use the same harness connectors.

Both the CD transport board and the main board are labeled "Sanyo Automedia". I wouldn't know a DAC chip if it bit me, but certainly saw nothing indicating any of the names you mentioned. Three big chips bonded to heat sinks with bolted covers I'm not about to touch but I assume those are amp related not DAC.

Entering number strings from the visible chips in Google got me a tuner chip and several items I couldn't interpret .... perhaps the Renesas hit is the DAC as well as the chip that's 'programmed' for the various changeable functions in the ACM.... the 'Greek to me" specs mentioned a DA converter function as well as PROM functions.

In any case, it's a $30k MSRP Ford so I don't expect "high-end" for sure. Rightly or wrongly "Consumer Grade" is the term that comes to mind .... I'm a "Ford" kinda folk, been having fun in 'em for many decades (knock-on-wood).


I'd heard from one source that the late Ford "Sony" systems have the same ACM as the Non-Sony systems, just different output programming. I would be very curious to know if anyone with a '13+ Focus/Escape "Sony" system gets into their ACM far enough to see whose name is on those boards .... is the "Sony" aspect only in regard to things downstream of the ACM (amp/DSP, maybe speakers)?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I listened to another Ford just a few days ago with the Sony system, and it had sound characteristics of a limiting hifi wide sound dispersion signal, more mono like than hifi, so I would not be surprised to know that the dac is shared and a washed down cheap version that Sony sources or makes. 

Only good thing I personally know of that Sony makes worthy these days are image sensors for the digital camera.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Lotsa converting going on there when the source is a digital media ...

D>A in the ACM (output to the remote Sony amp/DSP is analog)

A>D (DSP) D>A (speaker outputs)

But as you mentioned before, there's so many other circuits/factors in-play that who knows what really is the weak>weaker>weakest link in the chain from source-to-ear.

Yeah, we know the Fill (oops, "Phil")-osophy .... rip it all out and "take control" 

(tuggin yer chain bit, sir, in the pleasant spirit of this thread)


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

hehe! yes.....

I just didn't realize how limiting the stock HU can be, and its a chunk! Can make a 100% satisfactory system down to an 80% just on this. A superb sytem not even 90%....Hard to give it % values, as they mean nothing...

But if that wide comfortable open air sound is not what the sound system is starting out with, than to me its just not acceptable, no matter what you surround it with. 

I might have different expectations of sound from anyone and everyone, but that is just how I see it. Each person sees it, or doesn't for themselves. But I surely wouldn't think you can hear what I hear, or you don't know what to look for, or maybe don't value sound the same.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I promise if you sit in my car with your favorite music you would get a real idea of how far a stock radio can go. 
Maybe it's just Toyota.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I would,, but you are too far. Its not just Toyota, but its not all HU either.
If you're stock HU is anything like what I heard recently, I have heard the very far limits of audio in a car.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Related to this topic in a distant way, I've posted the results of my recently 'busted' ACM reprogramming experience (an effort to eliminate one of the common OEM HU compromises) here if anyone is interested http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rogrammed-ford-head-unit-acm.html#post3668290

I _*really*_ don't want to hijack the OP's thread here, so please keep any replies relating to that separate reprogramming effort over in that thread, thanks!


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Finally measured the FR in the wife's 2012 Camry SE and it reminded me of this thread. 

OEM Response of all 4 outputs








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I installed a Helix P-Six which has input EQ. This is the EQ'd version of the same channels utilizing the 5 band input EQ. I tried to EQ the fronts to have a flatter response and the rears to have more bass/midbass.








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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Cleaned up lots of the detail mess, but looks like you had no luck with much of it. 
Surprised the Helix couldn't do much better.
Though it is helpful and great info!


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Cleaned up lots of the detail mess, but looks like you had no luck with much of it.
> Surprised the Helix couldn't do much better.
> Though it is helpful and great info!


I didn't mention this previously but those measurements are of the OEM headunit's *Electrical *response, not the *Acoustical *response. 

The Helix **only has 5 bands of input eq and 6db of boost per band**. I tried pretty aggressively to get rid of that extreme rolloff from 100hz to 20hz and make the signal more flat, but wasn't super successful. 

I haven't got to measure the actual acoustical response yet. I may revisit the input EQ once I do.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

brumledb said:


> I didn't mention this previously but those measurements are of the OEM headunit's *Electrical *response, not the *Acoustical *response.
> 
> The Helix **only has 5 bands of input eq and 6db of boost per band**. I tried pretty aggressively to get rid of that extreme rolloff from 100hz to 20hz and make the signal more flat, but wasn't super successful.
> 
> I haven't got to measure the actual acoustical response yet. I may revisit the input EQ once I do.


Understanding that all of this is the HU 'electrical' output, not 'acoustic' from the speakers/environment via a mic (but assuming the measurement is from speaker-level HU outputs) ....

Does the Camry output curve _shape_ vary much with HU volume changes?

Is that with the Camry HU tone controls set flat/null?

In a situation such as that, is it 'OK' to use the HU tone controls to try to improve (flatten) the output curve before it gets to the DSP? Downsides of trying that?

On the DSP input EQ end, you reduce the EQ for 'high parts' of the curve and boost EQ for the 'low parts' of the curve, is that correct? Is the total span of input EQ with the Helix 6dB, or is it +/-6dB for a 12dB effective total span?

Finally, with the Helix P-Six, the Front & Rear inputs are not 'blended' like they are with an MS-8, but remain 'discrete' as do left and right, is that correct? Maybe I'm not understanding what the different color lines represent for each plot, could you clarify that for this novice? Is the second 'after DSP input EQ' plot with fewer inputs than the first, or with some of the 4 HU outputs 'blended' to only 2 channels in the Helix?

Just curious and working on my 'continuing education', TIA.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

With the u-connect 8.4 I don't have a choice but to use the factory unit unless I decide to hide a single din somewhere and plug an ipod type device into it. I hope summing with a JL Fix will give me a clean enough signal to work with. I don't plan on taking this system too far because I'm not as into car audio as I used to but still like my stage to image. The stock premium 10 speaker system doesn't sound bad with the bass turned down and faded completely to the front. If I feel like the sound is being bottlenecked more than just a little I'll put an aftermarket unit in the back of the vehicle out of the way and use the dsp remote for all volume control. My plan is to set it up where the auto loud in the stock unit will work in my favor.


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

FordEscape said:


> Understanding that all of this is the HU 'electrical' output, not 'acoustic' from the speakers/environment via a mic (but assuming the measurement is from speaker-level HU outputs) ....
> 
> 1. Does the Camry output curve _shape_ vary much with HU volume changes?
> 
> ...


Hopefully I can do some more testing this weekend and answer these questions.








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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

^^^^ brumledb, Thanks very much for taking the time to add the explanation, that really helps me better understand what you're dealing with on the Camry (and the Helix) .... all very interesting for one (me) with experience on only one car and one (much less 'tune-able') DSP. 

The clipping at 45/60 points out another variable among factory HUs (beyond just frequency response/EQ) .... thankfully I'm not faced with that constraint on my particular Ford HU (my o-scope output tests with a range of test tones showed no clipping over the full HU volume range). IMHO it'll be interesting to see if trying to help the output EQ with the HU controls is beneficial or lowers the clipping threshold further.

Good luck and have fun with the project, yours looks to be a lot more challenging HU to work with than mine happened to be !


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

Ok, here is an update. 

Picture 1. I tested whether the EQ curve is volume dependent and what the effect is when using the OEM h/u to boost the bass.

Red line= base line with bass set to flat and h/u at volume of 20
Green line= bass boosted
Blue line= with bass still boosted, the volume was increased to 30

So we can see that the EQ is not volume dependent and that boosting the bass at the h/u isn't much help because of how "peaky" the boost is.

Picture 2. Is a measurement of the front channels with no EQ.

Picture 3. Shows the measurement with the front channels EQ'd.

Picture 4. Overlay of pictures 2 and 3.

Picture 5. Rear channels after EQ

After I had EQ'd the inputs, I finally took some measurements of the actual in-car acoustical response. I found that my top-end response from 5k onward was severely lacking. So, I ended up resetting the front channel input EQ to flat and the system measured much better. I can only assume this is because my speakers are mounted completely off-axis. 

The sub gets its signal from the rear channel inputs. I found that the sub measured well enough with only the input EQ that no output EQ was needed. 








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