# HIGH PRICE MEANS HIGH QUALITY



## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Is this true? We all know that there are sleeper brands. RE Audio for subs, Korean based amps for bass and other brands for separates. With the inclusion of technology in car audio narrowing the gap between price and quality. Is it true, does the high price of brands like Audion, Brax, Sinofi and others justify the purchase when it is known that other brands have proven to be just as durable and clean sounding?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

So now you decided to approach same thing from another angle....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

High price doesn't mean high quality, high quality usually means higher price.


----------



## soccerguru607 (Nov 4, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> High price doesn't mean high quality, high quality usually means higher price.


So are you saying that your tube amps are not of high quality because of the low prices?


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2015)

..... :rockon: Standing, clapping for Victor_inox :rockon: ....


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> High price doesn't mean high quality, high quality usually means higher price.


Unfortunately this is 100% true... /\ /\ /\
Its the unwritten law of the universe


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

soccerguru607 said:


> So are you saying that your tube amps are not of high quality because of the low prices?


I discover hidden resources more efficiently then most.
Plus I dont have to support infrastructure of regular manufacturers. I do what I love because I dont have to point for profit. Quality wise I have zero failure rate.
I don't make absurd promises.
Fair enough?


----------



## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> High price doesn't mean high quality, high quality usually means higher price.


High quality doesn't always mean higher price. Look at all of the Soundstream Reference amps being sold at crackhead prices.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cleansoundz said:


> High quality doesn't always mean higher price. Look at all of the Soundstream Reference amps being sold at crackhead prices.


it doesn`t always mean high price, usually it does.there is always exceptions to every rule.
High price alone doesn`t means much, Critical mass nonsense is just an example.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> High price doesn't mean high quality, high quality usually means higher price.


Agreed ^^

...and to take it a step further. High quality does not always equal good performance, even if it usually does nowadays. Price is not always a good indicator on quality, it's also a bad indicator of performance within the realm of audio gear.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

performance as number of watts per dollar?


----------



## soccerguru607 (Nov 4, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> I discover hidden resources more efficiently then most.
> Plus I dont have to support infrastructure of regular manufacturers. I do what I love because I dont have to point for profit. Quality wise I have zero failure rate.
> I don't make absurd promises.
> Fair enough?


YES!


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Oh yay! Another pointless thread arguing about price point! 

I'm just giddy.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

some amplifiers aren't built to be bought by Average Joe.

this is a problem, many of us unconsciously downgrade a high-cost option so as not to desire it, we make the excuse about things other than our ability to pay.

the bigger our ego, the more adamant we become. Some of us will not ever justify the retail of some of the most expensive items available, while some of us will attempt to acquire product on the used market, and discover that which we knew all along.

there's not a lot of difference, in amps.

sure, you can call it "mind-blowing, absolutely game changing, stupefying" but you'll only succeed at stupefying.

and that's not to say a higher priced amp isn't worth every penny of the retail, because that's a relative value.

One man will see the commitment to perfection and highest ends, as a way of living and a personal credo, which money doesn't really touch.

Another will see the recklessness of eating ramen noodles for a month just to scrape up the dollars to buy something because they read it was the "must-have" item of the week on their local social media hang-out.

ultimately these two guys should meet in a bar and the guy that deserves the best, buys the round.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cajunner said:


> ultimately these two guys should meet in a bar and the guy that deserves the best, buys the round.


Ah... but a round of what? Do you know for a fact that you have a discerning enough palate to distinguish the difference between the top shelf option and the swill ingested by the common man? Have you performed a blind taste test with appropriate controls?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Ah... but a round of what? Do you know for a fact that you have a discerning enough palate to distinguish the difference between the top shelf option and the swill ingested by the common man? Have you performed a blind taste test with appropriate controls?


Vodka is the same **** as machine gun- both sweep you off your feet.


----------



## HighQman1974 (Jul 20, 2014)

Buck a watt was the defining line in my day (1992-1999)


----------



## milburyl (Feb 23, 2014)

I have used many different brands over the years. I can say that SOMETIMES, the cheaper choice is just as good, if not better than the more expensive option. I will also say that i have recently converted over to all JL Audio amps and sub. The 13W7 is a fantastic sub, but there are other options out there that are just as good, for about half the price. Their subs are of high quality, but overpriced. Their amps though, are worth every penny. The amps are extremely well built, designed and last a long time if taken care of properly. There are people running 10 year old Slash amps that still perform like new. I for one am one of those people. I have a 10 year old Slash 1000/1v1 anD recently bought a new old stock 1000/1v2 for $500 and there is absolutely ZERO difference between the two. I read a review where a guy said v2 was more powerful than v1, but i can honestly say it isn't. The only difference between the two amps is purely cosmetic. I don't even think there would be an audible difference if i compared it to a new Slash 1200/1v3. Do your research. Read real reviews and watch dynos online. Go to shows, listen to them in person. Some expensive stuff is well worth it, some stuff isn't. You'll probably notice more of a difference with expensive components than with average components. I tested out a set of CDT ES series 3 way components i have(MSRP$900) and compared them to a set of Alpine type R components(MSRP $300) and there was a WORLD of difference, with the CDT's being head and shoulders above the Alpine's. This is just my opinion and probably not much help.

Oh, BTW, the components were both tested with a JL Audio 450/4, active, with same head unit and same music was listened to. Only thing adjusted slightly was the xover points (slightly) to match the speakers specs.


----------



## jpswanberg (Jan 14, 2009)

My Manley Lab separates sound better than my Outlaw receiver (Oppo SACD player, Maggie/Definitive Audio Sub). How much better? Certainly not the difference in price between the two. Above a certain price point, the curve is really steep between price and performance. Is it worth it? Only your ears and wallet can make that decision. Now, the difference between SB Acoustics and Arc Audio Black Series? That one is easy. The SB's sound better (to my ears) than the Legatia's they replaced in my Passat.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I used to be of the mindset that higher price equaled higher quality with regards to electronics. Unfortunately, that wrong frame of mind was humbled by reality. Sometimes you get what you pay for and other times you overpay for what you get. It's a crap shoot!


----------



## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Vodka is the same **** as machine gun- both sweep you off your feet.


Nicely put!:laugh:


I myself put more emphasis on other things besides the ampliers now days. Granted, they have to be of some quality. For me, the money is better spent on other areas of my system.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

ChrisB said:


> I used to be of the mindset that higher price equaled higher quality with regards to electronics. Unfortunately, that wrong frame of mind was humbled by reality.  Sometimes you get what you pay for and other times you overpay for what you get. It's a crap shoot!


Don`t you think it`s odd that you haven`t mentioned that sometimes you got a lot more than you paid for?


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> Don`t you think it`s odd that you haven`t mentioned that sometimes you got a lot more than you paid for?


That happens all the time, especially with speakers 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> That happens all the time, especially with speakers
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


My point exactly.. I bet you have a list.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> My point exactly.. I bet you have a list.


I certainly do. Getting 'more than you pay for' is a main priority for me. I usually quit buying stuff at the point of diminishing returns.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

What do you mean by quality? For an engineer, high quality usually means that every piece that's produced meets spec within close tolerances. For a marketer or a salesperson, "high quality" often means "meets consumer expectations". Those are two very different things. 

The price of a product includes a lot more than the price of the materials and the labor used to make it. Sometimes the price of the materials is significantly increased because of fallout--parts that are produced that don't meet spec. Loosening the tolerance will reduce the price, but that affects quality from the engineer's perspective. There are additional costs in bringing a product to market. IF there's significant engineering work or tooling to be paid for, that can affect the price. Marketing and sales expense also affect the price. 

Ultimately, though, only the cheapest products are priced at "cost plus"--that means "we buy it as cheaply as possible and only mark it up as much as is needed to pay our bills and undercut our competitors". This typically leads to poorer products. Another way to reduce price to undercut competitors is to eliminate a step in distribution. Selling direct online is one way to do that--eliminate the retailer. This works for products that lots of people want to buy or with products that serve a very small niche. Brands that do this often realize quickly that the cost of getting customers to their website is more expensive than selling through a retailer channel. 

Most products are "priced to market". That means that the price has less to do with the acquisition cost than it does with pricing it against competitors, although acquisition cost often sets a baseline. That should be determined by a product manager before the project is started.

Unfortunately, in audio, there is far too much mythology that many brands use to justify the price of products that look beautiful but perform poorly. Making a speaker look beautiful is art. Making it sound great is science. 

I think that Kia has done a great job of improving the industrial design of their cars, especially the Optima. Undoubtedly that has allowed them to raise their prices somewhat because the car is now more desirable. The fact that it is more beautiful doesn't make it a Mercedes and they'd be silly to try to market it as an alternative to an S600 to the same buyer. For a performance enthusiast, it would be even sillier. 

Determining whether a product justifies the price is all about the consumer. If you're willing to pay $6000 for a component system because it's beautiful and don't care about the performance, there are plenty of brands that will sell you a poor performing set of speakers that look great.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Quality for me is longlivity and sturdiness. 

Performance for me is how good a product meets specs or how good a speaker measures in terms of linear/nonlinear distortion ( for example ). 

R&D is part of cost and can of course affect both quality and performance depending on what the product is intended for. In a car a speaker require additional sturdiness if mounted in doors etc. Lot of the high-end designs got a whole lot of R&D behind them and the cheaper designs from the same company might borrow some of this technology to still perform great. That's what I usually go for.

To get superb stuff with immense R&D, quality and performance it will cost you. That should make sense to most people.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Expensive and expensive looking is not the same thing....


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

milburyl said:


> There are people running 10 year old Slash amps that still perform like new. I for one am one of those people. I have a 10 year old Slash 1000/1v1 anD recently bought a new old stock 1000/1v2 for $500 and there is absolutely ZERO difference between the two.


As well it should. I'm not knocking JL or their amps. I think they make a great product that is fairly priced. However, 10 years of operation just doesn't impress me that much. Maybe it should? Maybe I expect a longer life cycle for car audio products than the average consumer? 

My wife's car has a 10 year old Elemental Designs NINe.2 that has been running strong in her car almost every single day and for nearly 200k miles. If a re-badged amp from an internet direct company is capable of such longevity, surely an amp costing at least 3x as much from one of the biggest names in car audio should be capable of the same? In my opinion, it should be the rule not the exception that a car audio product should last at least a decade of use. 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I think that Kia has done a great job of improving the industrial design of their cars, especially the Optima. Undoubtedly that has allowed them to raise their prices somewhat because the car is now more desirable. The fact that it is more beautiful doesn't make it a Mercedes and they'd be silly to try to market it as an alternative to an S600 to the same buyer. For a performance enthusiast, it would be even sillier.


Andy, I appreciate your post and your analogy. But isn't your comparison a bit off base? I mean, an Optima vs a S600? No one in their right mind would think of that as a fair comparison. But what about the Kia Optima vs the Mercedes CLA? Isn't this more along the lines of where these two companies meet? Kia steps up with better design and build quality and Mercedes decides to take a stab at a lower priced market. I know of a couple people on this forum alone who would or have chosen the Kia over the Mercedes in that comparison. 

And do we not see the same thing happen in car audio as well? Companies perceived as lower tier brands attempting to step up with products to compete with "the bigs." And we see upper tier brands releasing lower price point options to appeal to a broader market. A meeting in the middle. And sometimes, just sometimes, David gets the best of Goliath. Others, David would have been better off sticking with his sheep.


----------



## milburyl (Feb 23, 2014)

rton20s said:


> As well it should. I'm not knocking JL or their amps. I think they make a great product that is fairly priced. However, 10 years of operation just doesn't impress me that much. Maybe it should? Maybe I expect a longer life cycle for car audio products than the average consumer?
> 
> My wife's car has a 10 year old Elemental Designs NINe.2 that has been running strong in her car almost every single day and for nearly 200k miles. If a re-badged amp from an internet direct company is capable of such longevity, surely an amp costing at least 3x as much from one of the biggest names in car audio should be capable of the same? In my opinion, it should be the rule not the exception that a car audio product should last at least a decade of use.


I mean in comparison to Phoenix Gold who's gear is considered quality stuff, but the amps are notoriously known for having to replace the caps after a few years. I own some 20+ year old Orion HCCA amps and they are still running strong. I fully expect my JL's to last as long, if not longer. I also meant it in the sense that the Slash V1 line has only been around for about 10 years and most are still running strong still.


----------



## Valdemar (Aug 19, 2014)

I think it's the other way around... if I want a product that not only meets my expectations, but will continue to do so for a long enough time in different environments and is consistent from product to product, it would generally cost more than one that meets or even exceeds expected performance but breaks after a few months, negligence aside.

To me essentially quality means cushion room. Room for error without failing or performing poorly.

I think part of the problem from a manufacturer's standpoint to being competitive is not necessarily material or labor cost but poor manufacturing processes and low yield. I don't generally buy into the "high tolerance means performance" phrases. By that I mean is this piece in the center machined to tight tolerances because it can be or because it has to be? How much scrap did you produce in doing so, and how much did that cost you (and in turn, me as a consumer)? Will the next one I buy be the same? If I have a spare will it fit without issues?

I've found a correlation between close tolerances and low yield and vice versa. I don't really want parts that meet tight tolerances. I want consistent parts that fall within my allowable tolerances, and an infrastructure that allows for loose tolerances without sacrificing reliability, performance or consistency. High yields ftw


----------

