# thin home speakers



## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

I was wondering if anyone has had any luck using two or four 3" drivers and a tweeter in a thin speaker setup. Something that can play down to 100-120 hz and paired up with a sub. I want to replace my def tech's with something respectfully looking that wont take up a lot of space. i would like to have them tall and thin so i can pair up the 'towers' with a matching center chan that will fit above or below my wall mounted plasma. 

I'm not interested in audiophile quality, just something that will sound good in my home theater or when i listen to music. 

I have a 85wpc receiver and a pair of dayton 15" IB subs mounted in my fireplace. Any recommendation on how to attack this? or links to some successful designs?


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

these: http://coolcat.dk/bjoern/TABAQ_TL_for_TB.pdf

build with a TG9 and enjoy. Better still, extend them to 1m tall and fill the bottom with sand, using 16mm MDF. They are then dry and seriously extended for a 3"... but may have an issue if you can't put them hard against a wall (consider mounting the terminals on the side or front to get them closer!) or if the room is huge.

Bret


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

bretti_kivi said:


> these: http://coolcat.dk/bjoern/TABAQ_TL_for_TB.pdf
> 
> build with a TG9 and enjoy. Better still, extend them to 1m tall and fill the bottom with sand, using 16mm MDF. They are then dry and seriously extended for a 3"... but may have an issue if you can't put them hard against a wall (consider mounting the terminals on the side or front to get them closer!) or if the room is huge.
> 
> Bret


I think all that enclosure just to TL one 3" driver is a huge waste. What you need to do is get the 3" full range drivers by Hi-Vi from Parts Express. One is called the B3S. One of those is great. Two of them wired together butted up together are amazing running full range. It'll cast you $20 bucks a speaker and you won't need a subwoofer. Plus they can go in a way smaller enclosure than that transmission line.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

Sideshow said:


> I think all that enclosure just to TL one 3" driver is a huge waste. What you need to do is get the 3" full range drivers by Hi-Vi from Parts Express. One is called the B3S. One of those is great. Two of them wired together butted up together are amazing running full range. It'll cast you $20 bucks a speaker and you won't need a subwoofer. Plus they can go in a way smaller enclosure than that transmission line.


that tl is a bit too big to fit on my tv. the hi-vi is interesting I have the components to build zaph's full range but it's a bit deeper then i really would like and it's not very efficient. You say two butted up against each other, how about two butted up against each other on each side of a tweeter for a mmtmm design or maybe just a mmmm? That would keep my receiver in it's happy spot (8 ohms). if i did it that way i could use zaph's notch filter right? also... what would the optimum enclosure size be for four bs3's?


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## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

you could try this one.
http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYTQ12.html


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

scott_fx said:


> I was wondering if anyone has had any luck using two or four 3" drivers and a tweeter in a thin speaker setup. Something that can play down to 100-120 hz and paired up with a sub. I want to replace my def tech's with something respectfully looking that wont take up a lot of space. i would like to have them tall and thin so i can pair up the 'towers' with a matching center chan that will fit above or below my wall mounted plasma.
> 
> I'm not interested in audiophile quality, just something that will sound good in my home theater or when i listen to music.
> 
> I have a 85wpc receiver and a pair of dayton 15" IB subs mounted in my fireplace. Any recommendation on how to attack this? or links to some successful designs?


Do you like your Def Techs? Why not go with their Mythos series? They sound quite good when paired with a sub and are built like tanks. Their ST series has nothing but rave reviews, but its a little wider than the rest of the Mythos. 

http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos.html
http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos_st_supertower.html
http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos_sts_supertowers.html


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

hm, a setup with those hi-vi 3" full range and the dayton neo tweets would prolly be alright for a small 2.1 setup...


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

havok20222 said:


> Do you like your Def Techs? Why not go with their Mythos series? They sound quite good when paired with a sub and are built like tanks. Their ST series has nothing but rave reviews, but its a little wider than the rest of the Mythos.
> 
> http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos.html
> http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos_st_supertower.html
> http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos_sts_supertowers.html


I was looking at those but i am more interested in a diy solution. that is kinda what i want to aim for size wise though.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

do you have a budget? i can't believe no one has suggested magnepans. those are tall and thin


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

yup, doesn't everyone have a budget?  magnapans are thin, but the wrong way thin. I need something narrow along it's width. I would like to get away with this as inexpensively as possible. probably $65-$75 per speaker


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

i think my max dimensions are 6" deep, up to 42.5" tall and about 4.5" wide


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## BTA (Nov 5, 2005)

What about some Athena WS-60's?


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

oh. designing something around the B3S is probably your best bet then.


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

scott_fx said:


> that tl is a bit too big to fit on my tv. the hi-vi is interesting I have the components to build zaph's full range but it's a bit deeper then i really would like and it's not very efficient. You say two butted up against each other, how about two butted up against each other on each side of a tweeter for a mmtmm design or maybe just a mmmm? That would keep my receiver in it's happy spot (8 ohms). if i did it that way i could use zaph's notch filter right? also... what would the optimum enclosure size be for four bs3's?


You could do that, or you could just use two 3" and a resistor to balance it out. If you are using a subwoofer, I would say you could go smaller than Zaph's enclosure. i have used these alot when my clients required a specially shaped speaker, and they sounded awesome, single driver, no notch filter at all, in a box that was about 7" tall, 4" wide and 4" deep, made out of 1/2" or even 1/4". It's just such an easy going driver, it sounds good no matter what I do with it. If crossed over at 90 or 100hx they will scream in even a medium sized living room. I recently had a situation where I had to make a super thin soundbar to go under a guy's TV, using one 3" Hi-Vi for left, center , and right. The enclosure was plenty large, probably too large, so for starters, I just divided it into 3 equal cavities, one for each speaker, and gave it a listen. It was extremely clean and full sounding, even without some filler to bring the enclosures down to size. If I didn't have them crossed over to an in-the-floor subwoofer, there would have been issues. But otherwise they sounded just amazing for their size and situation.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

thanks for the advice. if i were to go with the two drivers, what resistor value should i use and how should i wire it?


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## bmaupin (Feb 22, 2006)

The Cinderellas can be built for about $250 /pair w/ cabinets.

Plans: http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Cinderella.html

Someone's build: http://undefinition.googlepages.com/cinderellaprogress



















Those small HiVi woofers do sound nice - I am using them in my center channel.

- Brad


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Someones towers, looking for more info


http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/array/array.htm


Here it is for the pisture posted here

http://www.marulla.com/audio/line-source-speakers/


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Sideshow said:


> I think all that enclosure just to TL one 3" driver is a huge waste. What you need to do is get the 3" full range drivers by Hi-Vi from Parts Express. One is called the B3S. One of those is great. Two of them wired together butted up together are amazing running full range. It'll cast you $20 bucks a speaker and you won't need a subwoofer. Plus they can go in a way smaller enclosure than that transmission line.


Hae you ever HEARD the 871 in a TABAQ or cyburgs needle? Just curious, keep your thoughts to yourself unless you have a worthwhile suggestions and experience. 

Personally I love the 871s, I just got a second pair to run in my front stage of my car. They are very smooth drivers and surprisingly low distortion for such a cheap driver...

I would suggest against running two B3S as you will run into severe combing issues, unless you design an MTM. Not to mention they are useless according to zaph below 160hz, which I confirmed when I bought a pair myself (very muddy). If anything the B3S would be an excellent candidate for a two way with a midbass driver up to 2-300 hz...they just aren't very efficient though...

To the OP, what are your size constraints? Funds? Its going to be hard to DIY a pair of ultra thin speakers. Obviously one driver probably won't be dynamic enough, maybe a line array of 3 inch drivers?


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

Fast1one said:


> H
> I would suggest against running two B3S as you will run into severe combing issues, unless you design an MTM. Not to mention they are useless according to zaph below 160hz, which I confirmed when I bought a pair myself (very muddy). If anything the B3S would be an excellent candidate for a two way with a midbass driver up to 2-300 hz...they just aren't very efficient though...


I may have been off when i was aiming for 100-120 hz. since my subs are directly in the center below my tv i probably can get away with a little higher then 120hz. Also, i wouldn't be opposed to an mtm, this doesn't have to be a full range speaker



Fast1one said:


> To the OP, what are your size constraints? Funds? Its going to be hard to DIY a pair of ultra thin speakers. Obviously one driver probably won't be dynamic enough, maybe a line array of 3 inch drivers?





My max dimensions are 6" deep, up to 42.5" tall and about 4.5" wide
budget, i want to stick to around $65-$75 per speaker if possible. 


how about a pair of tang band 3" drivers:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/sho...l&vReviewRand=286296969090&Partnumber=264-813
and maybe a tweeter?


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## Robdoggz (Sep 16, 2007)

I heard really good things about these. 
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATWS60
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATWS100

Too bad they are going out of business but i got a pair of the ATW15 and they are sweet.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATWS15


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

wow, for 100 each, thats not bad


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## Robdoggz (Sep 16, 2007)

Yea they are on clearance because they will no longer be made very good deals. I missed out on some killer towers they had but being out of work i couldn't buy them  

Here is their site i think they are owned by the same company that owns Klipsch Mirage Energy and Athena so they are not junk by any means. I think they just phased the name out to slap on the Klipsch name and charge an arm and leg.

http://www.athenaspeakers.com/WS-Series-WS-60.htm
http://www.klipsch.com/news-center/...nc-acquires-audio-products-international.aspx


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

Fast1one said:


> Hae you ever HEARD the 871 in a TABAQ or cyburgs needle? Just curious, keep your thoughts to yourself unless you have a worthwhile suggestions and experience.
> 
> Personally I love the 871s, I just got a second pair to run in my front stage of my car. They are very smooth drivers and surprisingly low distortion for such a cheap driver...
> 
> ...


I'm sure they sound awesome. I love the 871's. But I just think all that enclosure space could be used for adding more drivers, and therefore, more dynamic range, instead of squeezing as much bass out of a single driver as you can. Calm down.

I also have to disagree on the "severe" combing comment. If the drivers are butted up against each other it will not be audible, especially during casual listening, and certainly not severe.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Sideshow said:


> I'm sure they sound awesome. I love the 871's. But I just think all that enclosure space could be used for adding more drivers, and therefore, more dynamic range, instead of squeezing as much bass out of a single driver as you can. Calm down.
> 
> I also have to disagree on the "severe" combing comment. If the drivers are butted up against each other it will not be audible, especially during casual listening, and certainly not severe.


It is most definitely audible, but I guess you have to have trained ears to hear it  

Priorities my friend, priorities. Depends on how loud he wants them  One driver would be more than adequate for casual listening, and a low F3 would be much easier to integrate with a subwoofer...

Sorry my post came out a little condescending, just seemed like you were completely dismissing the setup without any actual experience


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

I want to thank everyone for their input so far, keep it coming.



Sideshow said:


> You could do that, or you could just use two 3" and a resistor to balance it out.
> 
> in a box that was about 7" tall, 4" wide and 4" deep, made out of 1/2" or even 1/4".


Hey Sideshow:
just in case you missed this: thanks for the advice. if i were to go with the two drivers, what resistor value should i use and how should i wire it?


I was thinking, for my purposes and the fact that it would be pretty cheap to experiment with, i may take on the proposed setup you suggested. does it make sense to you if i use a 14"x4"x4" cabinet with two hivi's?


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Robdoggz said:


> I heard really good things about these.
> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATWS60
> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATWS100
> 
> ...


Best Buy used to carry those Athena towers. I have heard them, and they actually don't sound all that bad. For their price, tough to beat I would guess.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

woot has those athena speakers for $95 shipped today if anyone was interested in them


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

scott_fx said:


> I want to thank everyone for their input so far, keep it coming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That cabinet size sounds fine, if you have a subwoofer. You might experiment with a larger one to find what matches your tastes, but it should be fine. As far as the wiring goes, I just get 8 ohm resisters to act as a third and 4th speaker. Wire each speaker in parallel with a resistor, and then each speaker/resister pair in series with each other, or vice-versa. I hope that makes sense. Basically you are bringing each woofer to 4 ohms with the resistor, and then the pair back to 8 by wiring them in series with each other.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

Sideshow said:


> That cabinet size sounds fine, if you have a subwoofer. You might experiment with a larger one to find what matches your tastes, but it should be fine. As far as the wiring goes, I just get 8 ohm resisters to act as a third and 4th speaker. Wire each speaker in parallel with a resistor, and then each speaker/resister pair in series with each other, or vice-versa. I hope that makes sense. Basically you are bringing each woofer to 4 ohms with the resistor, and then the pair back to 8 by wiring them in series with each other.


i feel silly, i never knew you could actually do that. thanks. i'm going to give these a shot.

are these what i'm looking for:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...7-8&vReviewShow=1&vReviewRand=2852012#reviews


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

Looks good. Let us know the results.


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## jinx8402 (Apr 26, 2006)

This looks interesting. Does it matter that it's only a 20 watt resistor if you have a receiver that puts out 110 watts per channel?

Also when you say wire the resistor parallel with the speaker do you mean just have one inline with the +?

so like this:
+ (amp) ------ -resistor- ----- + (speaker)

- (amp) ---------------------- - (Speaker)

Or do you mean like this:
+ (amp) -----------T----------- + (Speaker)
_________________|
_______________Resistor
_________________|
- (amp) ------------L----------- - (Speaker)

If that illustration makes any sense. LOL.


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

jinx8402 said:


> This looks interesting. Does it matter that it's only a 20 watt resistor if you have a receiver that puts out 110 watts per channel?
> 
> Also when you say wire the resistor parallel with the speaker do you mean just have one inline with the +?
> 
> ...


It would only matter if he planned on running his receiver at full volume all the time for some reason. If he has them crossed over to a sub, it's doubtful that he would surpass 20 per speaker or driver. I absolutely cranked mine in a medium sized room and never had a problem.

What you described is "series" (at least when you said "in-line with". I'm not positive I understand the second illustration, but it looks like it might be right), which he could use to connect the two speaker/resistor pairs to each other. Connecting drivers in Parallel is basically connecting positive to positive, negative to negative.


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## jinx8402 (Apr 26, 2006)

I knew it wasn't a good illustration . Basically, in the second illustration, it's one lead from the resistor is connected to the positive speaker wire and the other lead is connected to the negative speaker wire from the receiver to the speaker. 

Is that correct?


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

That sounds better.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

i think i just found a nice prototype box to experiment with:

http://www.tcbackwoods.com/store.htm#1box


> 1-Bottle Wine Boxes
> Unfinished, Re-sawn Pine
> 15½"L x 4"W x 4½"D


at $4.50 each i don't think i can go wrong for a test box


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

This is the one.

10½"L x 9¾"W x 4"D


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

why do you recommend that size?


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## jinx8402 (Apr 26, 2006)

scott_fx said:


> i think i just found a nice prototype box to experiment with:
> 
> http://www.tcbackwoods.com/store.htm#1box
> 
> at $4.50 each i don't think i can go wrong for a test box


Wow, thats not bad. If you do any experimenting, let me know. I am definitely interested in this setup!


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