# 250w rms 6.5 not even close to loud enough



## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Got some 6mr500 v3's. 

They made me raise tweeter from -10db to -5db on head unit to level match but it's not much louder. 

I've only got 200w rms to each one so is my next step 2 6.5 or 2 8" in the doors or giving them 300-400w each? 

Really underwhelmed with them. 250rms seems about double what they are doing. They are only a c hair louder than the silver flutes...

Also they sound pretty crappy on any thing but rap.


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## OCD66 (Apr 2, 2017)

Hmmmm. 

Sensitivity (1W/1m): 96 dB
Should be pretty efficient.
What are you crossing them over at?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

OCD66 said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> Sensitivity (1W/1m): 96 dB
> Should be pretty efficient.
> What are you crossing them over at?


They are louder but not by that much. 

250hz on the 80prs 

Was thinking of using the amp for 300-350hz since 250hz is the limit on the unit. But they aren't really distorting even at 60-62 volume (62 is max) for most songs. 

Gain at 9oclock on the mid channels...perhaps I could turn it up a bit??


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## OCD66 (Apr 2, 2017)

I ran my GB60 @ 80 on a PRS80 and my P99.
80-2k on GB60 125 watts


Try 100 and watch them without grille.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

96jimmyslt said:


> Got some 6mr500 v3's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not sure what is happening here. You should with 250, you certainly should hear a volume difference over the flute. 
I have heard these and they were super loud, but sounded like crap doing it. Again, the kids that I saw running these I dont think do much tuning other than what the deck or amps allow. They were looking for mids to keep up with sub systems. If you have ever listened to a high school football game PA system, it was very similar in my experience listening to them. Super loud, just not a good sounding loud.


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## vectrasoundz (Jan 19, 2020)

They sound crappy because they require a lot of tuning. The volume side how ever are you positive they are getting 250? That's a lot of watts


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## carlcom (Mar 7, 2013)

Difficult to see in the picture: Are there openings where the board and metal meet? Separate the air in front of the speaker, from the air behind it, as much as possible.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

Should've saved some dollars and gone with the Stevens MB6. I'd take Stevens over PRV 8 days a week.

The MB8s I had could scream wonderfully, kept up with horns pretty well.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

I have them bridged at 4 ohm, amp is rated for 400w bridged at 4 ohm. It's a little under rated but not a crazy amount (144rms vs rates 130rms at 4 ohms)

There might be a small gap on the bottom which I can seal off or make new adapters with 3/4" mdf. 

I only have the 80prs. Not sure how I can tune them. I cut them off at 250hz and 3khz. 

Where can I buy a pair of Steven's mb6 to try out?

I think ultimately I will have to go with 2x 6.5" or try to get one mounted up higher, either at the top of door panel next to the manual lock thing or in the a-pillar/sail panel/dash triangle where they won't cause any further blind spots. 

But I think I'll get a bigger amp first. Maybe 600w bridged at 4 ohms so they will get 300w rms each instead of 200. That should give me some wiggle room at least. 

Open to other options as well.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

i really would like to see measurements... 250 watts on a 96db speaker should be loud, especially for what youre coming from... the mb6's, go to stevens audio facebook page, absolute worth every dollar, and eric is amazing to work with. but before you do that swap (which you should do), you need to find out why these speakers arent playing over 115db. meter them, see what they are doing, then take a multi-meter to them, see what the impedance is, then measure voltage on the amp's output terminals. you sure the amp is bridged properly, and you arent just sending half a signal to each speaker? try running them not bridged and see if it gets noticeably quieter.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

If there's a gap, seal it with some butyl rope or even cheaper some caulk cord from home depot.

Stevens gear can be purchased from the Stevens Audio page on Facebook or contacting @Eric Stevens here. He makes fantastic gear.

I doubt you'll realize anymore potential by getting an amp that puts out more as that already an insane power. 2 x 6.5 would introduce comb filtering and could possibly make it even worse, would not recommend.

You going for flat out loud or good sounding loud? What exactly are you not getting range wise?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> i really would like to see measurements... 250 watts on a 96db speaker should be loud, especially for what youre coming from... the mb6's, go to stevens audio facebook page, absolute worth every dollar, and eric is amazing to work with. but before you do that swap (which you should do), you need to find out why these speakers arent playing over 115db. meter them, see what they are doing, then take a multi-meter to them, see what the impedance is, then measure voltage on the amp's output terminals. you sure the amp is bridged properly, and you arent just sending half a signal to each speaker? try running them not bridged and see if it gets noticeably quieter.


They are noticeably louder but not what I was hoping for. And I think they are only getting 200-215 ish not the full 250 they claim to need. I would assume having 300+ to give them would be better? 

What do you mean when you say meter them? I don't have an rta or anything. The dm-rta is nice but $650 is a bit steep. 

When I hook up a dmm to the output terminals, is this with a 40hz tone and no load on the outputs? 

I will double check on the wiring and see what they do individually at 8 ohms per channel unbridged.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Caustic said:


> If there's a gap, seal it with some butyl rope or even cheaper some caulk cord from home depot.
> 
> Stevens gear can be purchased from the Stevens Audio page on Facebook or contacting @Eric Stevens here. He makes fantastic gear.
> 
> ...


There is a tiny gap on the driver side. I need to make new adapters anyway since the inside cutout is a little big for these and the bottom screw holes don't really grab as much as I would like. 

I definitely want some SQ. I'm no where near the level of anyone on here I'm sure, but I do love silk dome tweeters and time alignment. I really loved the silver flutes. Even with no sub, they did realllly well crossed at 80hz. But with the amount of sub output I have, it's not really needed. I do like older songs and boy does sade and similar love songs sound great. 

But I definitely want it louder.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

96jimmyslt said:


> They are noticeably louder but not what I was hoping for. And I think they are only getting 200-215 ish not the full 250 they claim to need. I would assume having 300+ to give them would be better?
> 
> What do you mean when you say meter them? I don't have an rta or anything. The dm-rta is nice but $650 is a bit steep.
> 
> ...


what do you mean 8ohm? earlier you said 4ohm, what impedance are the drivers? are you still using the s800/4?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> what do you mean 8ohm? earlier you said 4ohm, what impedance are the drivers? are you still using the s800/4?


Looking to run at 4 ohms bridged and run 8 ohm drivers for the doors to get the most out of the amp. Yeah still running the s800/4. The 6mr500's are 8ohm


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

96jimmyslt said:


> Looking to run at 4 ohms bridged and run 8 ohm drivers for the doors to get the most out of the amp. Yeah still running the s800/4. The 6mr500's are 8ohm


That makes no sense?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dumdum said:


> That makes no sense?


The speakers are 8ohm each and I'm running them at 4 ohms bridged on the amp?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Unrelated, but relative (if that makes sense) I tested a set of PRV 6MB200 I bought for a motorcycle fairing setup. The sensitivity came in quite a bit lower than the stated spec. A few other numbers were off, but not horribly. I would imagine this is something consistent with all of their lines and it happens to numerous brands. Sensitivity is a rather odd spec.. and could be skewed by a point in the response, such as a broad peak. 


Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

Thats not bridged, thats parallel. may have found the problem here... get 4ohm versions, and hook (i assume, nedd manual to confirm) channel 1 pos and channel 2 neg to left driver, channel 3 pos and channel 4 neg to right driver.


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## maybebigfootisblury (Oct 20, 2021)

96jimmyslt said:


> I only have the 80prs.


Have you verified that one of the MB are not out of phase? Network 1: select Mid. Network 3, press and hold the Main knob until the L: blinks and R: dims. 
You can have one of the channels in REV, but it doesn't show until you isolate them.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> Thats not bridged, thats parallel. may have found the problem here... get 4ohm versions, and hook (i assume, nedd manual to confirm) channel 1 pos and channel 2 neg to left driver, channel 3 pos and channel 4 neg to right driver.


That would give each one 400w and then I would need another amp for tweeters.

The amp is running bridged mode??


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

That looks all wrong, the mids are wired in parallel together to 1 output?

Bridged would be 1 speaker on something like output 1s positive and output 2s negative and the other speaker would be on output 3s positive and output 4s negative. 

If they're all on one output there's no way you're time aligned likely causing mucho cancelation and they're only seeing half the power you think they're seeing.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

And yes if you're gonna bridge the amp, it turns into a 2 channel, you'd need another amp for the tweets or run them off head unit power.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Hmmm yeah ok I see what you mean. Can't say I noticed any difference with time alignment on or off with the 4 ohm silver flutes with one driver per channel after I mounted the tweeters at exact ear level slightly off axis (they are almost pointed at each other, just slightly not, and pointed towards me a bit more than at each other)

I didn't even think of running a 4 channel like that. I'll try to trade for some 4 ohm versions but really ive been researching the SA MB6 or MB8's after hearing about them because they are the same wattage but available in 2 ohm so I could get full power to them without the need for a second multi channel amp. And I'm sure they have better sq and range than the prv's.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

Have you gone into the deck and actually set time alignment? The Flutes are regarded as great budget speakers, I'd run them over the PRV in a heartbeat.

Get the speakers their own channels so that nice deck can actually do a little processing. That's how a regular person bridges an amp lol, twice the power to a single speaker so it can still be independently "tuned"

The SA-6 and MB6 are totally different animals, the SA-6 set is a top notch component set at a bargain price when compared with similar caliber comp sets like audiofrog, focal and such. The MB6 is a great speaker but more geared towards mating with a horn, it'll have less low end extension but it'll get loud af and sound pretty damn good doing it, if I ran the MB6 I'd cross it at around 125 24lr up to 2000 and either play the sub up higher or have a dedicated 
monster for midbass but thats just me, some have liked it lower or higher. I found the MB8 to not entirely like being below 100hz at high levels which I assume you want. Eric is a gentleman, he answered every question I asked, super helpful, wealth of knowledge.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm not much of an sq diva. I have my sub crossed at 40hz with 24 or 36db octave (roof resonates at 42hz and above), mids at 250hz and 3khz (will be turning them up to 8khz since the prv's can handle that) and tweeters at 4k.

I do indeed enjoy the mid bass from the silver flutes crossed at 80hz. Even without sealing or deadening my doors, they sounded amazing. When I took the sub out for a while, I almost didn't miss it. The mid bass from them was great. I almost wanted to just add my little treo 8" into the mix, but bass is life. The silver flutes simply did not get loud enough. They were the weak link. Had to set tweeters to -13db on the head unit with almost no gain on the amp just to level match with them. 

I only did the auto eq from the 80prs a few times but it sounded a lot better for sure. But as I said before, the new tweeter placement seemed to make any time alignment redundant for some reason. I notice no difference with time alignment off/on now.

I will either grab a pair of the 2 ohm mb6 or mb8 or find a 2 channel for the tweeters and keep the prv's but I'll probably grab a set of the mb6 to play around with and not have to custom mount them on the outside of the door panel like I would with the 8"s.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Have you measured the in-car response at the headrest with REW? I wonder if you are simply experiencing that nasty "null" due to car interior acoustics, that often happens in the low 100hz half of that octave. You could throw ANY driver in there, and still experience the null - that's due to cancellations in your interior simply due to acoustics (as differentiated from drivers cancelling each other from being out-of-phase or something like that).

Or - more basic - if that door structure behind your plastic door panel isn't sealed up and functioning as a real baffle (basically try to make that door work like an enclosure for the speaker - sheet metal over any gaps, CLD and CCF to control vibrations and reflections- and some CCF on the outside of that and backside of your door panel can help too), you'll get cancellation that's even more fundamental. You could have a 12" subwoofer in the door and still not get bass, because the sound from the rear of the cone is escaping and cancelling the sound from the front of the cone. They are always out of phase,they will always cancel.

With that many drivers you've gone through apparently trying to fix this problem - I don't think I"m going out on a limb by saying "the problem isn't the driver you are using".

...that said, I will point out that you are now also trying to jump through other hoops, to increase power (ie "the worst way to increase dB levels"). Running your midbass in mono so you can bridge them to an amp? No, no no. You shouldn't have to do that. Plus, then your midbass IS mono. That's not good for SQ.

Take that door apart. Make sure it's working like an enclosure, at minimum that surface is working like a baffle. Maybe it's an acoustic null caused by the space between the door panel and that surface - fill that up with CCF maybe. Maybe it's a standard midbass null caused by that specific (very common!) front-door location, and you need to resolve it by adding midbass under seats, or in rear doors, to help resolve the null caused by that single set of locations having the car absorb them. Adding a different set of pathlengths from a different acoustical location can resolve that. You definitely have extra midbass to use for that. You can even just wire them in parallel.

As far as evaluating speakers, with that very common "midbass null" from front-only door locations playing midbass, I'd not compare the speakers that way to make decisions on which you are keeping. None of them will overcome inherent acoustical issues related to your car interior. Efficiency can't overcome cancellation. It won't even make a difference. 
Another good reason to have REW - you can put them in small sealed test cabinets, and measure them in a [more] controlled environment where that isn't happening.

A reference mic is a lot cheaper than never-ending futile purchases of different drivers, which will never overcome acoustical issues that need to be directly addressed.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

I agree that you should get a mic and tune properly in the future, but that isnt important here as we already have evidence of what happened. you confused bridged and parallel and wired the speakers wrong. get a pair of mb6-2's, cross them at between 80-120hz depending on how they hold up to the volume level youre looking for (youll likely be fine at 80) and give them each their own, single amp channel. that should solve most of your problems, and we can go from there. eric stevens is great to work with, message his page on FB


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

you have an 8" sub low-passed at 40? so, it plays like 30-40? drop your headliner, throw some noico on the roof if tight budget, or resonix if you can afford it, and hp your sub at a little under whatever ends up working for the mb6-2's


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

You got a gap from 40-250? Jeezus man. I'd toss the Flutes back in just for that. Amplify them correctly, find your rough time alignment using tracerite.com plug that into the head unit and go from there.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> I agree that you should get a mic and tune properly in the future, but that isnt important here as we already have evidence of what happened. you confused bridged and parallel and wired the speakers wrong. get a pair of mb6-2's, cross them at between 80-120hz depending on how they hold up to the volume level youre looking for (youll likely be fine at 80) and give them each their own, single amp channel. that should solve most of your problems, and we can go from there. eric stevens is great to work with, message his page on FB


Yeah I think I will try those out just to have them but will also seal up the front doors. Mb6 and mb8 are back ordered till March 😭😭😭

Hmm I don't think I wired them wrong as it's a simple task but I will double check. I just wired them + to + and - to - 

Ok what mic should I get? Never used a mic before. This is all new to me.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> you have an 8" sub low-passed at 40? so, it plays like 30-40? drop your headliner, throw some noico on the roof if tight budget, or resonix if you can afford it, and hp your sub at a little under whatever ends up working for the mb6-2's


 No, sorry I wasn't clear. I was thinking of throwing my treo te 8" in because the silver flutes almost didn't require a sub. I have a big ass 15" that hits like 25-38hz on 1.5-1.7k watts.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

if you wired two drivers to the same output, you wired them wrong...


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Caustic said:


> You got a gap from 40-250? Jeezus man. I'd toss the Flutes back in just for that. Amplify them correctly, find your rough time alignment using tracerite.com plug that into the head unit and go from there.


I really don't miss any mid bass when the sub kinda makes it reduntant lol. I listen to a lot of rap/decaf/ etc. But I do enjoy some classic tunes where the silver flutes sounded wayyyyy better. But i need it loud. I think the mb6 is going to be the best thing for me.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> if you wired two drivers to the same output, you wired them wrong...


I mean from an SQ POV yes..but not for what I wanted.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

for you getting power to them, and therefore what you want, yes. thats not what bridged means.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

Like they said, if you wired it like that, it's definitely wrong.

A umik would be a good mic to use and they're not super expensive, then tuning and such takes forever.

I couldn't live with a gap that big, 40-250 is huge and there's a lot of content in that range, especially on classic rock


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

4ohm bridged means 2 channels on one 4ohm driver, so the power of 2 channels on one driver, which is why its more, youre using a driver with a higher impedance, making it harder for the amp to push power, and your splitting that already lower power between multiple drivers. how many channels are you running them on, 1 or 2?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

The MB6 and if you can fit MB8 are 100% what people should be trying first regardless of budget doesn't matter if 2 way with tweets or horns or 3 way. They should have to be beat before spending time and money on some other speakers. Just my opinion


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> 4ohm bridged means 2 channels on one 4ohm driver, so the power of 2 channels on one driver, which is why its more, youre using a driver with a higher impedance, making it harder for the amp to push power, and your splitting that already lower power between multiple drivers. how many channels are you running them on, 1 or 2?


I mean i don't see how the amp would be working harder. It's seeing the same 4ohm load as it would with a sub or something. 

I have 2 8ohm prv 6mr500's on 2 channels at 4 ohm so the amp was seeing what I had known as "bridged at 4 ohm"

I didn't know they even made 2ohm 200w 6.5" drivers like the mb6 or I would got those instead lol.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dcfis said:


> The MB6 and if you can fit MB8 are 100% what people should be trying first regardless of budget doesn't matter if 2 way with tweets or horns or 3 way. They should have to be beat before spending time and money on some other speakers. Just my opinion


I would have to cut the hole a bit for them but there is plenty of room around it and I can even space the adapter out more...i would say a good 3" to clear any window stuff.

That's 5 year old peel and seal. It only melted on the back near where the third brake light is. Can't say it did any thing though.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Caustic said:


> Like they said, if you wired it like that, it's definitely wrong.
> 
> A umik would be a good mic to use and they're not super expensive, then tuning and such takes forever.
> 
> I couldn't live with a gap that big, 40-250 is huge and there's a lot of content in that range, especially on classic rock


How does that connect to phone/computer? Most of them I see are XLR connector. 

I would say 125-160 is where I really started to notice. I did love 80hz filtering on the silver flutes.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

The umik connects to a computer, it's a USB mic that can be used with REW.

And @dcfis is absolutely right about the MB6/8, for the money, they are pretty unbeatable until you spend triple what they cost if you ask me


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

umik-1 and unik-2 are usb, as is the dayton umm-6
youre splitting those two channels between two drivers again, its the same power as hooking up an 8ohm driver to it. the point of bridging is to have two channels of power per driver, thats defeated by then splitting it between two drivers. your giving them less power each (slightly) than your amp is rated for per channel at 2ohm, potentially, im struggling rn to see how it isnt doing the same power as 4ohm, so no more power than the flutes were getting...


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Ok I'm just gonna get a good one. Umik 1 the gold standard entry level? Or will the cheaper Dayton do the job? I see the umik for $100 and the dayton for $60

Yeah idk...I guess I was expecting them to be twice as loud since twice the power.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

They should definitely be much louder if their sensitivity specs are correct, but who knows on that front, prv isn't super reputable.

Umik is quality, pretty much the gold standard for a first mic. I'd say the Dayton is quality too, I've yet to be disappointed by a dayton audio product


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

for what were doing, any of them will work, i got a umik-2 bcs **** it, why not?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Caustic said:


> The umik connects to a computer, it's a USB mic that can be used with REW.
> 
> And @dcfis is absolutely right about the MB6/8, for the money, they are pretty unbeatable until you spend triple what they cost if you ask me



Even more IMO the GB60 couldn't touch them in anything except below 100hz. The GB is a fine audiophile speaker better than most in everything but it don't play music like the MBs.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Caustic said:


> They should definitely be much louder if their sensitivity specs are correct, but who knows on that front, prv isn't super reputable.
> 
> Umik is quality, pretty much the gold standard for a first mic. I'd say the Dayton is quality too, I've yet to be disappointed by a dayton audio product


Prv tech support is wack. And their product advisors are kinda immature and only slightly helpful. I felt like I was talking to an Indian outsourced guy when asking for speaker recommendations...like I knew more than they did or something. I saw a comment somewhere that said prv guys used to be some other reputable SPL/PA company and knew what they were doing...guess the email support is a different matter....

Ima just order the UMIK-1 then. Fk it. Good buzzed purchase 😏👍


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> for what were doing, any of them will work, i got a umik-2 bcs **** it, why not?


I mean I want to buy a $400 fluke oscilloscope even thought the $80 dso nano will do the job fine... but I know fluke is quality...I have no idea about rta mics lol.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dcfis said:


> Even more IMO the GB60 couldn't touch them in anything except below 100hz. The GB is a fine audiophile speaker better than most in everything but it don't play music like the MBs.


Pretty sure audiofrog is made in China anyways. Like klipsh new ****


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Oh boy.. Hong Kong. This will take a while to ship.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

I have moral objections to buying chinese products, but the quality is dictated by the contractor, some very well built thinks come out of china.








Hantek 6254BD 4-CH Oscilloscope with AWG 250Mhz 1GSa/s 8-pc set: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


Hantek 6254BD 4-CH Oscilloscope with AWG 250Mhz 1GSa/s 8-pc set: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com




if you arent against china, theres a good bang for the buck scope

To be fair to minidsp, hong kong is the one part of mainland taiwan (lol) i would send money to


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Try cross spectrum labs


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> I have moral objections to buying chinese products, but the quality is dictated by the contractor, some very well built thinks come out of china.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love my chinese Symphony amps but I feel like there is some weird tech built into the sub amp that prevents clipping 😠


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

96jimmyslt said:


> I mean i don't see how the amp would be working harder. It's seeing the same 4ohm load as it would with a sub or something.
> 
> I have 2 8ohm prv 6mr500's on 2 channels at 4 ohm so the amp was seeing what I had known as "bridged at 4 ohm"
> 
> I didn't know they even made 2ohm 200w 6.5" drivers like the mb6 or I would got those instead lol.


You have 2 speakers from different sides of the car running off the same channel. This creates cancelation of sound. It also prevents time alignment deom doing anything. That is why you are having such issues. I have the same car as you. Well I used to drive it now it just sits lol. Anyways I had the same 80prs HU in it. I also have that HU in another car. If you correct your wiring issue you will be able to tune the dsp time alignment and other items and should get a much better and louder system. If it is not loud enough at that point then look to what to do next. For now fix this setup. Oh and I ran a single 15 in mine from as high as 200 hz and below.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dcfis said:


> Try cross spectrum labs


Seems they are on backorder as well...do they just purchase from China too??? Even stevens audio is back ordered/outsourced. But I believe Steven's audio is UK/Germany based? (They seem to have the neo's in stock in Germany)


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

07azhhr said:


> You have 2 speakers from different sides of the car running off the same channel. This creates cancelation of sound. It also prevents time alignment deom doing anything. That is why you are having such issues. I have the same car as you. Well I used to drive it now it just sits lol. Anyways I had the same 80prs HU in it. I also have that HU in another car. If you correct your wiring issue you will be able to tune the dsp time alignment and other items and should get a much better and louder system. If it is not loud enough at that point then look to what to do next. For now fix this setup. Oh and I ran a single 15 in mine from as high as 200 hz and below.


Alright I'm gonna buy some sa mb6 or mb8 asap and run at 2 ohm or find a 2 channel for tweeters and run the 8ohm prv's on the 4 channel I have.

Did you deaden the roof or something? I killed 3 best buy subs years ago from the roof resonating or whatever. So now I just play under 40hz which is fine really...but classic SQ ish songs do lack...

Why dont you drive it? Handles great with the rear sway bar and gets 30mpg average if you cruise at 55mph on the freeway.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

um..... im having some issue with the idea of roof resonance killing subs...


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't drive it because I now have a truck. I still have it just don't drive it. 

No roof treatment. Resonances of body panels cannot impact a speaker.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Isaradia said:


> um..... im having some issue with the idea of roof resonance killing subs...


Some? 😉


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> um..... im having some issue with the idea of roof resonance killing subs...


Maybe not the roof...but it unloads or whatever above 41hz. I imagine it's the roof but could be other panels? It just gives me this loud humming with no spl output.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

07azhhr said:


> I don't drive it because I now have a truck. I still have it just don't drive it.
> 
> No roof treatment. Resonances of body panels cannot impact a speaker.


Well I would love to know what your setup was. Ive always had sub up\port up. 

Sorry to hear that you drive a truck now 😢


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

im sure we could solve that null now that youve go a mic on the way, once it gets in, lets try to fix that


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Hopefully it doesn't take too long to get here!!


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

96jimmyslt said:


> Well I would love to know what your setup was. Ive always had sub up\port up.
> 
> Sorry to hear that you drive a truck now 😢


I am not sorry. The truck is brand new and has way more power. more room, more tech and can get me to places the hhr cannot.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

When I ordered a minidsp 8x12 and umik it took 5 days to get here from HK, that was just after the pandemic started


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I've order from Minidsp on Friday night and had it on Monday night. They are insane on the shipping.
Hong Kong has had different rules than the Mainland for customs.

It would be louder if you had music playing in the 100hz range!

A potential 36db slope at 40hz. Nothing is coming out from 70-250. I'm pretty sure that's midbass area?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Caustic said:


> When I ordered a minidsp 8x12 and umik it took 5 days to get here from HK, that was just after the pandemic started


I had a similar experience ordering direct from MiniDSP in 2017. I didn't realize until after I placed the order that it would be coming direct from Hong Kong ...with an expected delivery date five weeks later (@#$%!). To my great surprise and relief, the order arrived via FedEx in six days, including a weekend (and I live in the boonies).


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Your ideas and theory’s give me a laugh

Two midbass off one channel is a timing mess

you have a sub in the boot that’s probably never going to be in phase as there’s no midbass, and if you did wind it’s crossover up (watch out for rogue roofs!) it will never be in phase with the front midbass as you have two lots of phase information due to no time alignment so no hope of blending or getting a sub even vaguely in phase, so no impact and punch or drive to the music you should be getting

so 90% of your issues come from a lack of a decent install, sort that or you will never have a decent sound unfortunately

a mic is only half the battle, deaden your roof for a start as the sub response is massively effected by this part being a big resonant panel, not doing it is costing you big time


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Fingers crossed on fast shipping!

Didn't regret buying it when I woke up this morning...

Apparently I also ordered a $10 magnetic led taxi sign for my car. 











And the ak2515 spectrum analyzer thingy I ordered gave me a strange message which I can only assume means a shipping delay??


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> It would be louder if you had music playing in the 100hz range!
> 
> A potential 36db slope at 40hz. Nothing is coming out from 70-250. I'm pretty sure that's midbass area?


I mean it's definitely louder than it was, but not that much. I think I just expected an unrealistic increase in output going from 80w to 250w on the 6.5"s. 

Dead zone is more like 40-240. 😕

I kinda want to throw the silver flutes back in and compare them. Some songs definitely sound like complete ass. But others sound great. They do add a lot of treble blending. I _almost_ don't need tweeters with these.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dumdum said:


> Your ideas and theory’s give me a laugh
> 
> Two midbass off one channel is a timing mess
> 
> ...


Before I spend some money and put time into removing and creasing my headliner (I read that it's unavoidable when removing it in this car) is there a way I can make sure it's the roof? Does box orientation matter in this? Always liked sub up/port up for low and slow bass response (25-32hz is my favorite) rear exit seems more punchy and fast.

I do need to mount the luggage racks so removing headliner needs to happen anyway though...

It does sound good on rap, specifically decaf, DJ slow n throw, etc. Metalical, slayer...not so much. Electronic is way too bright (naturally lots of treble) jazz, funk, classic rock, monster ballads, love songs, etc are dull, bland...muffled...as if I turned "mid" down on a stock decks' 3 band EQ...cant really describe it properly. 

It would be fine if it was a demo vehicle or I just listened to boosted rap...but I don't.

I am definitely going to grab a set of the mb6 or mb8. I need that level of wattage for sure.

Ultimately I think a 3 way active setup is what I'll end up doing, with a full range in the A-pillar or sail panel? I have some vifa 4" full range I need dust caps for that might work?


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

I think the real issue is you seem to be battling multiple different issues at once and starting to conflate one with another. I suggest focusing on one item at a time or you may be perpetually chasing problems. I find it hard to believe that your roof is that big of a problem, maybe it would be best to start by removing your sub stage for now and simply correcting your wiring/front stage issues. I may have missed it, but how are you determining where your null is without a calibrated mic and an rta? Seems like a blind guess, which makes the info unreliable at best. There's just so much to unwrap here it's difficult to sort what is really going on. I still haven't figured out if you're running two 4 ohm speakers wires to an 8 ohm final load or two 8 ohm speakers wired to a 4 ohm final load or some other combination as the posts are a bit hard to follow.


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## Slave2myXJ (Dec 18, 2021)

I had a roof spar come unglued from the roof panel, making for hellacious resonance. This is the proper stuff for the job, basically gluing foam back together.



https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40071607/


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Before I bonded 1mm stainless to my roof I made sure I bonded all the roof supports to the roof skin 100%

Then I got the 10cm wide strips and bonded them upto the skin, then added a second layer in the middle of wide panels and then deadened over the lot with a layer of deadener, then 3mm closed cell foam and put the roof liner back, looks factory but is dead as a dead thing on a dead day coming first in a being dead competition and doesn’t rattle ever, more importantly it smoothed the sub bass response significantly


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

jheat2500 said:


> I think the real issue is you seem to be battling multiple different issues at once and starting to conflate one with another. I suggest focusing on one item at a time or you may be perpetually chasing problems. I find it hard to believe that your roof is that big of a problem, maybe it would be best to start by removing your sub stage for now and simply correcting your wiring/front stage issues. I may have missed it, but how are you determining where your null is without a calibrated mic and an rta? Seems like a blind guess, which makes the info unreliable at best. There's just so much to unwrap here it's difficult to sort what is really going on. I still haven't figured out if you're running two 4 ohm speakers wires to an 8 ohm final load or two 8 ohm speakers wired to a 4 ohm final load or some other combination as the posts are a bit hard to follow.


Got an UMIK-1 mic on the way so I'll report back when it gets in. Is there an RTA thats cheaper than the dm-rta? I can't afford or justify $650+ for that unit unfortunately. Even though it's nice and feature packed (imo)

I apologize if my posts are unclear. I don't know too much SQ lingo or terminology.

2x 8ohm drivers on 2 channels of the amplifier, and the amp puts out 400w @ 4 ohm when using 2 channels at 4 ohms (the amp specs state this, and I considered this "bridged at 4 ohm") so they are seeing roughly 200w each in this configuration, but are in mono mode. I did this so I could get the most out of the amp.

I was going for spl and was not aware they made 200w rms 2ohm drivers which I will be purchasing asap to retain TA and stereo separation funcionalities (SA MB6/MB8)

My buddy put 2 400w rms 10" prv drivers in his low rider and I got the SPL bug after hearing how loud they were. Not much SQ but they didn't sound too horrible...and they turn heads lol. I suppose there is a certain niche for the type of sound that PA gear has. Sort of like the typical loud Spanish SUV/truck on tacky 24" chrome wheels with ungodly amounts of treble. It's not for everyone but I appreciate any upgraded and/or loud sound system that isn't distorting (Sort of like how you may not like the wheels or mods on another car but appreciate the effort and respect the passion/hobby??)










He used to have 2 8" in the kicks and got a lot of hate on reddit because the parking brake would hit the driver side if engaged. But he didn't use it. It sounded pretty good for what it was. I think people just like to hate on stuff they don't like.

I really appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. I definitely want to go more SQ than spl but I like it loud. I understand this is an SQ forum but I did post this in the spl sub-forum, lol. However I'm really leaning towards SQ now. Mostly because the majority of the music I listen to does not sound good on SPL gear and everyone here has been very helpful and suggestive.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

It's not so much that pro/SPL gear has a certain sound, it's that what you're hearing is gear that has been poorly implemented in terms of SQ. Al but the very worst gear can sound decent (within reasonable expectations) when selected, installed and tuned appropriately.


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

Download REW on a notebook, it's free and incredibly powerful, especially for a free program. Used in conjunction with your umik-1, you will have a pretty incredible set of tools to use to tune your system. Add a true DSP and you'll quickly see what you've been missing.

So you bridged the outputs on your 4 channel amp and then ran two, 8 ohm drivers on each side, wired parallel for a 4 ohm load per side. Each bridged set of outputs is powering one side. I get it now.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Rew with a umik-1 is all you really need to have an excellent rta and the software is free, download that and away you go once the umik arrives


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

jheat2500 said:


> Download REW on a notebook, it's free and incredibly powerful, especially for a free program. Used in conjunction with your umik-1, you will have a pretty incredible set of tools to use to tune your system. Add a true DSP and you'll quickly see what you've been missing.
> 
> So you bridged the outputs on your 4 channel amp and then ran two, 8 ohm drivers on each side, wired parallel for a 4 ohm load per side. Each bridged set of outputs is powering one side. I get it now.


How is the Dayton dsp? 

I'm still not sure if that's exactly how I have them but it doesn't matter anymore. I am just going to get some 2 ohm mb6 or mb8. So I'll have the power I want and stereo/TA stuffs


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dumdum said:


> Rew with a umik-1 is all you really need to have an excellent rta and the software is free, download that and away you go once the umik arrives


Sweet, I have a decent 720p netbook I can use for it 👍


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

jheat2500 said:


> Download REW on a notebook, it's free and incredibly powerful, especially for a free program. Used in conjunction with your umik-1, you will have a pretty incredible set of tools to use to tune your system. Add a true DSP and you'll quickly see what you've been missing.
> 
> So you bridged the outputs on your 4 channel amp and then ran two, 8 ohm drivers on each side, wired parallel for a 4 ohm load per side. Each bridged set of outputs is powering one side. I get it now.


he's still using 2 channels for other drivers, so its 2 channels bridged into 2 8ohm drivers parallel at 4ohm.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

96jimmyslt said:


> How is the Dayton dsp?
> 
> I'm still not sure if that's exactly how I have them but it doesn't matter anymore. I am just going to get some 2 ohm mb6 or mb8. So I'll have the power I want and stereo/TA stuffs


dayton 408 is decent, if basic. should be fine for you, but other members here have had a noise floor issue with it, however im inclined to believe youd be less sensitive to noise floor issues than others on this forum. if you want to spend a little more, minidsp has cheaper dsp options as well. either would be fine likely. congrats on your cars new hat, lol. if you wanna run with spl guys, youll need to get used to putting a good bit of work deadening things, if you wanna run with the sq guys, youll have to get used to putting a lot of work into understanding an tuning things. were here to help with both. once you get the MB's in and wired up, come back here and well get them sounding good, then move on to the next item on the list


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Was reading about your dating app woes… think twice about that Chinese knot!!! Don’t want to see you on one those ER shows!🤣


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

also, a lot of what you said about what music sounds good and bad correlates hugely with your response dip, once we get that solved it will help a lot
also, be wary some of the guys in this thread putting it all on cancelation from lack of time alignment, if that were true, no factory system, spl system, of best buy install would get loud, because none of them would have t/a. while cancelation is real, and important, it isnt gunna chop 5db in the whole range, itll only affect certain frequencies based on listening position. literally anything rolling out of a low end audio shop doesnt have t/a yet they all get loud, pretty much and loud jeep build ever, etc. some guys on this forum read too much into theory and dont spend enough time installing, lol
dont get me wrong, theory is hugely important, but its one ingredient in a two part recipe


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Well I redid my power wires. Put fuses on every thing (battery to alt wire, 4 channel, and a low power line I ran for switches)

Turns out one mid was wired backwards. (Tested with tone generator (9v) 

Played with the input switch on the 4 channel for fun. Big mistake. Now I get some weird issue where it starts to cut out the mids. Sounds crackly then loses volume. Very odd. It was fine sitting in the driveway. Anyways, it also jumps output up and down...louder then softer. No idea what is going on. This same thing was happening to my sub amp. But I fixed it by messing with the input switch I think...

Is this a head unit or amp issue? Or???


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Im confused. Does this install have two sets of drivers or just one? Either way a pair of 6.5s on 250 watts should be loud even if at 8 ohms. If he is running 2 in parallel that puts him back at 4 ohms.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

I have 2 Vifa tweeters and 2 6.5"s

I think I have to get some reputable shop or person to look at my stuff cause something is not right and I'm not sure how to fix it 😐 but its pretty loud I guess.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

96jimmyslt said:


> .... Played with the input switch on the 4 channel for fun. Big mistake. Now I get some weird issue where it starts to cut out the mids. Sounds crackly then loses volume. ....


I had a similar issue with a 4-channel amp, involving noise and reduced output and intermittent loss of one channel of an RF R400-4D. "Exercising" the respective 3-way HP/AP/LP switch back and forth several times did the trick. Wouldn't hurt to try giving the input switch in question a bit of "exercise."


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## Slave2myXJ (Dec 18, 2021)

Or leave it on stereo and use a y-splitter; that's all the switch is doing...


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

96jimmyslt said:


> I have 2 Vifa tweeters and 2 6.5"s
> 
> I think I have to get some reputable shop or person to look at my stuff cause something is not right and I'm not sure how to fix it 😐 but its pretty loud I guess.


Do you have just the 6” on the dash corners and not in the doors?


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

dumdum said:


> Do you have just the 6” on the dash corners and not in the doors?


He's got the prv 6.5s in the doors on baffles and vifa tweeters screwed into the a pillars up high.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Slave2myXJ said:


> Or leave it on stereo and use a y-splitter; that's all the switch is doing...


Hmm I thought it was a low or high rca voltage switch? Mine isn't like the newer amps with the sliding thing.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Grinder said:


> I had a similar issue with a 4-channel amp, involving noise and reduced output and intermittent loss of one channel of an RF R400-4D. "Exercising" the respective 3-way HP/AP/LP switch back and forth several times did the trick. Wouldn't hurt to try giving the input switch in question a bit of "exercise."


I definitely will. I just remembered that a similar thing happened with some von schwiekert home audio speakers I had. They had the same button on the side and it didn't work correctly either. Would cause a lot of scratching and didn't always work like it should. I forgot what the fix was but it was some type of grease I think??


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## Slave2myXJ (Dec 18, 2021)

96jimmyslt said:


> Hmm I thought it was a low or high rca voltage switch? Mine isn't like the newer amps with the sliding thing.


Sorry, I thought it was a Stereo/Bridged switch...


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

96jimmyslt said:


> .... I forgot what the fix was but it was some type of grease I think??


I don't know... Maybe contact cleaner spray, if there's a way to shoot it into the switch body and clean the contacts?


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

if you fed it high voltage inputs while switched to low level input....
also, one driver being out of phase will make phase issues more relevant to perceived volume, to a degree


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

So I killed the amp basically?


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

I would be worried that you may have damaged the input side of the amp, however im far from knowledgeable enough about this topic to speak in certainties, but again, it is something id consider


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Seems ok now. I cycled both buttons a bunch of times to hopefully clear the contacts in the button switches. 

Only get some odd random that kind of sounds like wind or something feedback even when car is off which I can't explain


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

96jimmyslt said:


> Oh boy.. Hong Kong. This will take a while to ship.
> View attachment 324036


You'd be surprised how quickly they normally ship, but the whole pandemic slowdown may screw things up.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Grinder said:


> I had a similar experience ordering direct from MiniDSP in 2017. I didn't realize until after I placed the order that it would be coming direct from Hong Kong ...with an expected delivery date five weeks later (@#$%!). To my great surprise and relief, the order arrived via FedEx in six days, including a weekend (and I live in the boonies).


I received my 8x12 3 days after I ordered it, well before the pandemic. My OLED remote came in pretty quickly last year, 3-4 days.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

96jimmyslt said:


> Got an UMIK-1 mic on the way so I'll report back when it gets in. Is there an RTA thats cheaper than the dm-rta? I can't afford or justify $650+ for that unit unfortunately. Even though it's nice and feature packed (imo)


You need a laptop and REW.




__





REW room acoustics and audio device measurement and analysis software


REW is free software for room acoustic measurement, loudspeaker measurement and audio device measurement and analysis




www.roomeqwizard.com


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

96jimmyslt said:


> Got some 6mr500 v3's.
> 
> They made me raise tweeter from -10db to -5db on head unit to level match but it's not much louder.
> 
> ...


LISTEN….

your issue isn’t so much a speaker and power issue, it’s going to be a simple issue of the pair of speakers and the room causing cancellations , and I’m not talking the -180deg cancellations…..

the speakers are fighting eachother and the room it self is causing cancellations by boundaries

it’s called comb-filtering. It’s extreme in some cases and takes a sober approach to solve it.

throwing hi power speakers and lots of power is absolutely counter-intuitive and will not help you one iota

200w on a 6.5 is a TON of power and will absolutely get stupid loud so long as your not playing into destructive interference issues


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> LISTEN….
> 
> your issue isn’t so much a speaker and power issue, it’s going to be a simple issue of the pair of speakers and the room causing cancellations , and I’m not talking the -180deg cancellations…..
> 
> ...


Alright so I'm guessing that mic and REW will help me know where to start?

Also have a fluke oscilloscope on the way too.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

96jimmyslt said:


> Alright so I'm guessing that mic and REW will help me know where to start?
> 
> Also have a fluke oscilloscope on the way too.


yeah , that will help , but more importantly, knowing your car’s acoustic behavior and yes being able to analyze what’s going on helps also.
Ideally , a good solid install, dsp , and the wherewithal to know how to navigate each problem isolate and correct….

i promise you throwing power and hi power speakers is literally throwing money away…

proper install , proper install and some control over the signal is gold !


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## NW JLUR (Dec 3, 2018)

96jimmyslt said:


> Alright so I'm guessing that mic and REW will help me know where to start?
> 
> Also have a fluke oscilloscope on the way too.


You mentioned you were looking at getting 2 ohm midbass drivers. Is your 4 channel amp 2 ohm stereo capable or are you going to bridge 2 of the 4 channels to the mids at 4 ohms? If you’re bridging your midbass on one channel, running them from 250 Hz and up, you’re not even getting stereo sound. Improving some of the installation would be the first step I’d take. I’d bridge the 4 channel to the midbass and get a smaller 2 channel for your tweeters or get a 2 channel for the midbass.
I noticed in the picture of your door the holes weren’t covered. It would definitely help your midbass to cover and seal all the holes in the door to isolate the front wave of the speaker to the back. 
Batdog  has a good video demonstrating the procedure.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

NW JLUR said:


> You mentioned you were looking at getting 2 ohm midbass drivers. Is your 4 channel amp 2 ohm stereo capable or are you going to bridge 2 of the 4 channels to the mids at 4 ohms? If you’re bridging your midbass on one channel, running them from 250 Hz and up, you’re not even getting stereo sound. Improving some of the installation would be the first step I’d take. I’d bridge the 4 channel to the midbass and get a smaller 2 channel for your tweeters or get a 2 channel for the midbass.
> I noticed in the picture of your door the holes weren’t covered. It would definitely help your midbass to cover and seal all the holes in the door to isolate the front wave of the speaker to the back.
> Batdog  has a good video demonstrating the procedure.


My 4 chan is 2 ohms x4 capable so no issue there. I will run each door mid and tweeter on its own channel. I won't need to have 2 amps for front stage with the 2ohm mb6 or mb8's..at least not for now.

I know its mono but it doesn't sound too bad. I didn't really notice much difference with time alignment on or off with the recent tweeter placement. Even the silver flutes sounded great with no deadening or sealing. But I'm far from an expert on this and haven't been spoiled yet.

I've watched a few CAF videos on this. I think he just used sheet metal to cover the hole and some peel and stick deadened inside and outside the door. But I will give that link a look. I do notice some resonating on the mids at some frequencies which sounds like crap. Hopefully the mic can pick that up?

I want to use the mic to test everything how it is now, and get some data. Then see the difference after I put some work into it.

I'll have the mic, oscilloscope, powerprobe 3, installbay 9v signal generator/speaker tester and a dmm at hand so hopefully that is a good starter kit. Open to other suggestions on what else I might have a use for.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

That was fast!


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

You don’t need the foam shield on it, that’s generally for windy conditions outdoors, in a car your fine without


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

dumdum said:


> You don’t need the foam shield on it, that’s generally for windy conditions outdoors, in a car your fine without


Thanks for the tip!

I've downloaded the calibration file but can't figure out why it asks me to compare to another spl meter. I messed with spl, rta, and a few other sections. Kinda confused at this point lol.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Now!
Make dam sure the sample rate in your audio card is 48k and the mic is 48k and set REW to 48k otherwise your measurements are meaningless!!!!!!!!!

also , do a calibration on the soundcard ,even if it’s “flat” it makes a huge difference!!!!
and use the cal file for mic……

then make sure to use pink PN (not pink noise) and make sure the FFt length matches the noise FFt length….

once all that is done you will have a deadly accurate tuning rig…..

Use RTA averages (not sweeps) for now,,, (with extra emphasis on for now for the dumb ****s that are going to comment and say sweeps are better, this is a novice tuner)

use moving mic averages and 32 averages…. Use 1/6th RTA (not spectrum) and you should be able to make your car sound very good in minutes…….

Obviously there’s much more advanced ways to do this but this and I’m telling you absolutely positively without any dumb **** comments from anybody else this will make your car sound good….

and most importantly, use cuts on EQ! No boosts until you know what you’re doing, understand the gain structure and understand full scale digital and understand what unity gain means and what clipping does. Just to start


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> Now!
> Make dam sure the sample rate in your audio card is 48k and the mic is 48k and set REW to 48k otherwise your measurements are meaningless!!!!!!!!!
> 
> also , do a calibration on the soundcard ,even if it’s “flat” it makes a huge difference!!!!
> ...


Hardly meaningless… 44.1khz measures to 22khz… 48khz measures to 24khz… he’s not a bat… lets not make mountains out of molehills


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dumdum said:


> Hardly meaningless… 44.1khz measures to 22khz… 48khz measures to 24khz… he’s not a bat… lets not make mountains out of molehills


thanks buddy….




Yeah if you measure at 96k on a 48k mic , your dips will be like half of Nyquist off…. Lol or some crazy amount..

Like imagine measuring a dip a 1300hz and it’s actually at 2600hz ….. big problems

it’s very important your mic, soundcard,and REW settings match!

the umik2 you can change its audio properties and make it go up to 192k but umik1 is fixed at 48k so measure at 48k

you have to go to windows audio and playback properties and make sure they all match as far as soundcard and other mics .

In windows you can change it, but windows will resample it on soundcard. Just use 48k on umik1 and you’ll have a very accurate machine. I think in win playback properties you can change the umik1 to 44-1 or 48 

i would go with 48…..

i have an analog xlr mic that plays to 40k, the soundcard I had to have it sample to 192k with usb audio to make it work and so I can measure at 192k.

you windowing will need to be adjusted in input analysis on REW to accommodate for the UHF. The default tukey.25 won’t work as well. I’ve just been using rectangular windows and then adding a window into the measurements after I take them. Or use the tukey or Hahn if theres a lot of noise.

when I use rectangular windows tho , sometimes I’ll shift the ir by one sample just to get the resolution tighter at one frequency where it destroyed the others….. there’s a lot you can do when measurements are in UHF.
I’m still experimenting also. My Tweets Play to 40k and my system is a true 96k system so I can measure up there…… I can’t hear a difference tho….. it’s kinda lame imo (high sample rates)


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> thanks buddy….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good job you can’t do that then even if you wanted to 🤷🏽‍♂️


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dumdum said:


> Good job you can’t do that then even if you wanted to 🤷🏽‍♂️


what does that mean?
im confused.
I can quote directly from REW help menus if it helps….. it says essentially the same thing , except maybe I’m not saying it perfectly. 🧜🏼‍♂️

if you mean you can’t do that in windows, you absolutely can and should..

Right click on the little speaker in the taskbar and go to playback properties and recording properties go to the advanced tab if I remember correctly and look at the sample rates….

as far as a Mac (don’t ask me) lol

and I’m not trying to challenge you I know you’re wicked smart on this stuff, i could be thinking something completely different lol 👼🏽


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I think where it’s talking about aliasing is one of the things that can make a measurement off…
it’s makes the example of a measurement being 2000 cycles off by incorrect settings…..

i read the entire ew manual about 5x , or mentions what’s I’m saying a few times and it’s scattered. So I spent about 10sec finding this ,
I can find more if you like , lmk I’m happy to help  

And , I’ve done rta with wrong settings and it’s drastically different…. Go try it , lol ….


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Resampleing has a detrimental effect on what you see of the screen… the fft blocks MUST contain the same amount of information or it’s not accurate….. not filled in by a bunch of zeros by windows resampleing …..


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dumdum said:


> Good job you can’t do that then even if you wanted to 🤷🏽‍♂️


aah , maybe your talking about playing to 40k

yeah it is true , my tweets play to 40k , they actually fall off at 33khz , and are about -30db at40k

i can only measure to 48khz as I’m measuring in 96k most often

the higher ratesI’m not used to

check out the utopia tweeters. They do play to 40k……. Which is crazy and it is kinda pointless if you ask me


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

My 6m5r500's are crossed at 8 or 10k...they basically make the tweeters redundant. I had to double check to make sure they were still on. The usable end of the tweeter range has to be somewhere around 15k


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

You can’t pick anything other than 44.1 or 48khz in rew for a umik 1, the soundcard is usb and built into the mic

So saying you shouldn’t pick 96khz or whatever is pointless 🙈


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dumdum said:


> You can’t pick anything other than 44.1 or 48khz in rew for a umik 1, the soundcard is usb and built into the mic
> 
> So saying you shouldn’t pick 96khz or whatever is pointless 🙈


yeah , but in REW you can pick the Java sample rate of whatever you want….. no matter what mic you have in….

I make a big deal of it because when I first started tuning w REW , I selected 96k because I thought 96 was better right…… the cars sounded horrible, so I ended up using my old audio control 3050a ……

then one night a read the help files and low and behold…..

so you can’t in windows properties, but you can in REW…. That’s my whole argument, everything has to match 🙉

and if you have a usb sound card guess what 🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈

You ABSOLUTELY can’t just select 96k in REW with a 48k mic and just think it will try to measure higher then 20k with no differences…. (More monkeys please) 🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒🐒

of course it will still take a measurement, it won’t be anywhere near a proper representation of what is actually going on acoustically. (Do we need more monkeys?…)

hell yes , more monkeys please
🦍🦍🦍🦍🦍🦍🦍🙉🙉🙉🐵🐵🐵🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🦧🙈🙊🙊🐒🦍🦍🙉🦧🦧🦧🙈🙉🙊🦍


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

About to run a 3.5mm to rca. Can I split it? Or should I just test 2 channels at a time?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

oabeieo said:


> yeah , but in REW you can pick the Java sample rate of whatever you want….. no matter what mic you have in….
> 
> I make a big deal of it because when I first started tuning w REW , I selected 96k because I thought 96 was better right…… the cars sounded horrible, so I ended up using my old audio control 3050a ……
> 
> ...


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

96jimmyslt said:


> About to run a 3.5mm to rca. Can I split it? Or should I just test 2 channels at a time?


So you have an aerospace?

the workflow is all done moving mic averages

1. Do all tape mwasureturn all crossovers off (except tweeter set to 1k)
2. Measure individual drivers and make flat.

on midrange and midbass find a way to make both drivers flat (as possible) using the same eq settings

3. add one eq setting to either left of right that you just can’t get making them the same and listen to relative polarity track making sure it doesn’t de-correlate in the center remains center and not diffuse. Use your output EQs to do all driver eq work 

4. Turn on desired crossovers

5. measure all speakers together and make magnitudes flat by using only gain on channels doing left and right separate but aiming for left and right to be as similar as possible.

6. do room eq using your main 30 band parametric. Use wide Q (1.4 to 2) on all peaks and make flat. Use narrow EQs below 200hz (fronts and rears separate EQs as sub)

7. listen to relative polarity track. Make sure nothing is diffuse and listen for sound quality

Note 

obviously there’s levels and gain structure stuff before step1 this is a rough guide to workflow on aerospace


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Grinder said:


>


Haha , yeah I did feel like that at one point…. Hehe that’s great 😁

NOW THATS some monkey …….(does anyone want to spank my monkey 🙈)
I got monkey on my back and he just quit) lol

Thanks for the challenge though @dumdum 
Man what a debate ;-)


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> So you have an aerospace?
> 
> the workflow is all done moving mic averages
> 
> ...


I'm trying to solve the issue with the random output on the amps first...before I measure or tune anything.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

oabeieo said:


> So you have an aerospace?
> 
> the workflow is all done moving mic averages
> 
> ...


i.... dont think he has a dsp... think hes tuning with an 80prs

@96jimmyslt, do you have a bluetooth laptop?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Isaradia said:


> i.... dont think he has a dsp... think hes tuning with an 80prs
> 
> @96jimmyslt, do you have a bluetooth laptop?


oh thanks , sorry I thought I saw the new aero app on a previous post….. (which the old aero app is way better) my apologies


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

oabeieo said:


> oh thanks , sorry I thought I saw the new aero app on a previous post….. (which the old aero app is way better) my apologies


i could be wrong as well. may be new info i missed


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> i.... dont think he has a dsp... think hes tuning with an 80prs
> 
> @96jimmyslt, do you have a bluetooth laptop?


Yeah a I have a netbook with Bluetooth or a Bluetooth dongle if it doesn't. 

No dsp just 80prs


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

96jimmyslt said:


> Yeah a I have a netbook with Bluetooth or a Bluetooth dongle if it doesn't.
> 
> No dsp just 80prs


oh snap…….Because I have been such a pain , I have an 8to12 aero I’ll sell you for cheeeep for your troubles

pm me if interest


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> oh snap…….Because I have been such a pain , I have an 8to12 aero I’ll sell you for cheeeep for your troubles
> 
> pm me if interest


Cheaper than 408?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

96jimmyslt said:


> Cheaper than 408?


haha no , I have it posted for 1000$ , I’ll give it to you for 950

it’s a 1400$ dsp and the knob is 250$ so it’s almost 1700$ worth of dsp

get the 408 , it’s a good dsp


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Aren't there enough bands in the 80prs?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

20hz, 31.5hz, 50hz, 80hz, 125hz, 200hz, 315hz, 500hz, 800hz, 1.25kHz, 2kHz, 3.15kHz, 5kHz, 8kHz, 12.5kHz, 20kHz


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

96jimmyslt said:


> Aren't there enough bands in the 80prs?


i have an 80prs in my wife’s van , and yes and no

it’s enough to get it spectral. But for precision, no. If it were parametric and had main and output eq then yes…. The dexp99 is closer to a full dsp , but still isn’t a full dsp…

you can definitely dial a good sound with an 80prs…. A dam good sound actually….


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Ran 3.5mm to rca. Just on mids. No issues. It's loud now. Turned up gain a tiny bit. At about 10oclock now. Loud and clear. This is what I was expecting. Hopefully it's the rca's and not thr 80prs....at least I know the amp isn't bad!!!


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Planning to seal the doors a bit. Doing a lock knob delete (silver pole with chrome cap on the right) 

Just get sheet metal or what? 

There's a lot of phò kin holes... How can I seal those?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Yes use 1mm aluminium, form bumps over wiring looms and fill in around the wiring looms and the like with butyl tape, this seals it up, then deaden over the lot

I’ve also sealed the door pin in by wrapping in foam and forming a tube in the over laying metal panel so it can still slide up and down, but tbh if it goes flush when locked and can be undone with the door handle like most cars it makes no difference so delete also works


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

96jimmyslt said:


> Ran 3.5mm to rca. Just on mids. No issues. It's loud now. Turned up gain a tiny bit. At about 10oclock now. Loud and clear. This is what I was expecting. Hopefully it's the rca's and not thr 80prs....at least I know the amp isn't bad!!!


plug just one rca in to the amp and see what happens, then the other. use your multimeter to read ac voltage on rca's with volume max on a 60hz tone, touch one to center pin, other to outside ring, dont contact both with the same probe while signal is flowing


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> plug just one rca in to the amp and see what happens, then the other. use your multimeter to read ac voltage on rca's with volume max on a 60hz tone, touch one to center pin, other to outside ring, dont contact both with the same probe while signal is flowing


Do this with the current tablet; 3.5mm; rca setup or with previous problematic head unit/standard rca setup?


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

hu/rca, this is to diag where the problem is. youre using the radios rca outputs, and lo-level in setting on the amp, correct?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> hu/rca, this is to diag where the problem is. youre using the radios rca outputs, and lo-level in setting on the amp, correct?


Right now it's just a Samsung tablet with a 3.5mm to rca cable into the amp on channels 1-2. I did put the input voltage switch on low though.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

are you not planning on going back to the 80prs?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> are you not planning on going back to the 80prs?


I would like to. But wanted to go for a decent drive with the rca's and unit bypassed. 

The problem with testing the unit is that the issue only happens when I'm driving. 

So I am going to try some couplers and using the rcas that I ran for the unit so I can see if it's the unit or the rca's.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

so its loud while idling, but not while driving, on the 80prs?


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> so its loud while idling, but not while driving, on the 80prs?


It does like 3 things: 

1. Starts to crackle
2. Gets slightly louder or quiter, no crackling
3. Goes silent or nearly silent

This only happens randomly when driving.

This had previously only been a noticeable issue with the sub. Sometimes 20% on the knob would be stupid loud...other times I would have turn the knob up to 75%+ to achieve the same output.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

then it's certainly a connection issue somewhere, gunna be fun finding out where, lol. wiggle rcas at radio while playing in driveway


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> then it's certainly a connection issue somewhere, gunna be fun finding out where, lol. wiggle rcas at radio while playing in driveway


That's the plan...except while driving lol. Once I eliminate both amps and rca's as the culprit, I can focus on the unit. But I'm hoping its the rca's and I messed up somewhere and they are pinched or I stretched them without knowing or something


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

you could also drop rcas from the pulled out hu to the amps through the car easy


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## maybebigfootisblury (Oct 20, 2021)

96jimmyslt said:


> It does like 3 things:
> 
> 1. Starts to crackle
> 2. Gets slightly louder or quiter, no crackling
> ...


If you haven't already, the faceplate connector on the 80PRS needs a good cleaning with alcohol periodically. Especially in high humidity climates, and/or frequently have the windows down (dust/pollen).


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

maybebigfootisblury said:


> If you haven't already, the faceplate connector on the 80PRS needs a good cleaning with alcohol periodically. Especially in high humidity climates, and/or frequently have the windows down (dust/pollen).


Didn't think of that. Will definitely try that. 

I think the rca's are fine. Ran a 3.5mm to rca with 2 splitters for sub and mids. Pretty good results besides sub being a bit low (I switched both amps to low rca input voltage)


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

96jimmyslt said:


> Didn't think of that. Will definitely try that.
> 
> I think the rca's are fine. Ran a 3.5mm to rca with 2 splitters for sub and mids. Pretty good results besides sub being a bit low (I switched both amps to low rca input voltage)


if you switched the sub amps input, you can retune the gain.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Alright so I noticed that some songs sounded like they were stereo separated and I double checked and wired up the white rca to sub and red rca to mids. I swapped them so they were equally divided. Didn't fix the issue, but then I started to get alt whine and then I got the same issue again - output cut by 90%, and scratchy. So I'm guessing the rca's are grounding out or short circuiting even though I taped them up pretty good - there was a tiny bit of metal exposed on the connectors. Other than that, it's been a few days of bumpy driving with no issue so I'm going to rule out rca's and amps as the culprits.

But only the sub rca's would have been able to touch anything since the bass knob has longer leads on the output side in the original config. Which doesn't explain how the 4 channel amp started acting up unless the rca's were touching? 

Also I'm not really liking the sound of the 6mr500's for most songs. I had to start messing with the eq on the phone and even that didn't help much as I only had it on 10 band mode. (I just now realized it has 31 band mode) 

But that brings up another question - is this the same as an eq on the 80prs or a dsp? Or same concept? I'm sure this is a dumb question and a dsp is surely a lot better. And if so, what makes the eq on a dsp better? Specifically the Dayton 408 as I am probably going to get one to start out with, especially with the preset knob which would be great for switching presets for different genres


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

The 408 and most other DSPs offer parametric eq and/or more bands of peq.









difference between parametric eq and graphic eq?


and is one better than the other for bringing out the finer details in music when you are fine tuning everything,:cool:




www.diymobileaudio.com













parametric or graphic


for sq is one easier or better than the other? or what do all you sq experts prefer?




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Am I mistaken to assume the only advantage of a Parametric EQ is the Q factor? Does this mean it makes a curved smooth transitioned line vs a graphic eq making a straight line between frequencies?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

I'm not particularly well versed in this area. This should help: Pros / Cons Parametric EQ vs. multiband EQ


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Aww man it seems the 80prs only has a graphic eq so I would be better off using my phone with the musicolet app and the 31 band EQ? 

Also saw this comment:










This seems odd!


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

parametric eq allows you to choose what exact frequency, how much its magnitude is altered, and how wide of an area around that frequency (q factor) is affected by the change, allowing you to narrow in on exactly the problem and exactly how wide it is, graphic has preset frequencies, and if any, limited q adjustment, i was tuning with graphic the other day, and able to do an 80% job, with parametric, i wouldve been able to do a 99% job. dsp also allows time alignment, which will be important a little further down the sq rabbit hole, and the dsp will do eq per specific channel, not just the output signal like most head units, though the 80prs is a higher end unit in that aspect and may allow the same, i dont know without looking it up, which, eh, everyone who needs to know does, and i dont. graphic is easier to use if youre stumbling through without knowledge or data, but since you have a calibrated mic and all of us here willing to help, para will give you more capability. any way to monitor voltage at battery and each amp during cut out? try taking the bass knob out and seeing if that eliminates it, a lot of the universal in-line rca ones dont hold up well. not surprised you dont like the way the speakers sound, stevens mbs WILL fix that once tuned. I know someone with 4ohm MB6's, but you really should hold out for 2 ohm 8's, do it right and be done.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Isaradia said:


> parametric eq allows you to choose what exact frequency, how much its magnitude is altered, and how wide of an area around that frequency (q factor) is affected by the change, allowing you to narrow in on exactly the problem and exactly how wide it is, graphic has preset frequencies, and if any, limited q adjustment, i was tuning with graphic the other day, and able to do an 80% job, with parametric, i wouldve been able to do a 99% job. dsp also allows time alignment, which will be important a little further down the sq rabbit hole, and the dsp will do eq per specific channel, not just the output signal like most head units, though the 80prs is a higher end unit in that aspect and may allow the same, i dont know without looking it up, which, eh, everyone who needs to know does, and i dont. graphic is easier to use if youre stumbling through without knowledge or data, but since you have a calibrated mic and all of us here willing to help, para will give you more capability.
> 
> any way to monitor voltage at battery and each amp during cut out?


Not sure about the 80prs and individual channel EQ. I would have to look it up. It does have time alignment though so I think for my entry level needs, it should be ok for now. 

I have a 12v meter hooked up to the cigarette lighter, hard wired, not plug in. But I can run new lines to each amp. Although I can't imagine it being any different, short of a fuse blowing and disconnecting them from the rest of the electrical grid?



Isaradia said:


> try taking the bass knob out and seeing if that eliminates it, a lot of the universal in-line rca ones dont hold up well.


Its supposed to be a higher end knob. Spl cartel, not the pac LC-1. The 4 channel amp is what is cutting out anyway, not the sub amp. But I'll try it.



Isaradia said:


> not surprised you dont like the way the speakers sound, stevens mbs WILL fix that once tuned. I know someone with 4ohm MB6's, but you really should hold out for 2 ohm 8's, do it right and be done.


I mean they do sound decent on certain songs. I kind if like the subtle echoey loud outdoor pa speaker sound. But if I can get this output with what is basically a higher end silver flute, with more power, I will definitely prefer that.

There are 2 door panel plastic inserts next to the speaker and a window bolt but I think I can sacrifice 1 or 2 of those plastic pieces and still manage to have the door stay put. I think moving one or both might work too. Should be an easy fix with some superglue and a knife, and a drill bit. They are about an inch or 2 away from the current mdf adapter but it would likely be a tight fit if I didn't need to remove them. Worst case, I can always sell them or enlist in external fabricstion help to get them in. I think it would be worth it. I'll have to borrow my friends 8"s and do a mock up.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

96jimmyslt said:


> Aww man it seems the 80prs only has a graphic eq so I would be better off using my phone with the musicolet app and the 31 band EQ?
> 
> Also saw this comment:
> 
> ...


Pay no attention to that! That guy has his L/R speaker wiring swapped somewhere.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

96jimmyslt said:


> Am I mistaken to assume the only advantage of a Parametric EQ is the Q factor? Does this mean it makes a curved smooth transitioned line vs a graphic eq making a straight line between frequencies?


Variable Q and frequency, much more usful than graphic eq.
Graphic eq doesn't make a straight line between frequencies, it works exactly the same as parametric eq except the frequency and Q are fixed.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Pay no attention to that! That guy has his L/R speaker wiring swapped somewhere.


Ok yeah that didn't make sense to me either. But I'll still have to confirm it for research purposes. Hard to trust a brand that uses pico fuses for rca's.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Variable Q and frequency, much more usful than graphic eq.
> Graphic eq doesn't make a straight line between frequencies, it works exactly the same as parametric eq except the frequency and Q are fixed.


So a graphic EQ makes a smooth curve?


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## Slave2myXJ (Dec 18, 2021)

With a graphic EQ, you can only adjust the amplitude of the boost/cut; the center frequency and roll-off slope of the adjustment, aka width, are pre-set. With a parametric EQ, you can adjust all three...


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

96jimmyslt said:


> Ok yeah that didn't make sense to me either. But I'll still have to confirm it for research purposes. Hard to trust a brand that uses pico fuses for rca's.


I have an 80prs, right is right, left is left.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

96jimmyslt said:


> So a graphic EQ makes a smooth curve?


This is what a graphic eq does, 4.3 Q, 4 3db boosts followed by 2 3db cuts.


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## Isaradia (Apr 14, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> This is what a graphic eq does, 4.3 Q, 4 3db boosts followed by 2 3db cuts.
> View attachment 325054


great job coming up with a visualization. if i werent so busy id go play with rew in a car and take SS's for him too, but i just dont think ill have the time in the next 2 weeks...


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Isaradia said:


> great job coming up with a visualization. if i werent so busy id go play with rew in a car and take SS's for him too, but i just dont think ill have the time in the next 2 weeks...


I have a flat frequency response saved in text form so I can do things like that. I find myself using it a lot just to see what different eq filters will do when combined, or to see what filters are necessary to replicate a given house curve.


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