# Weak mid bass



## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

ID CTX65CS components
PDX 4.100
Sealed doors with Second Skin Pro

I simply made a 1/2" MDF spacer and installed the 6.5" speaker in the sealed door. 

Everything sounds great, but they don't have the punch I was expecting. Should I have put them in a sealed 'box' instead of using the whole door as a box?

Thanks!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

whats your xover point?


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

chefhow said:


> whats your xover point?


I'm using the passive xovers that came with them, I have the HPF on and adjusted to about 80hz? Even set to full it is not any better really.

You can see my work in the build thread in my sig.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Well alot of what is perceived as midbass is more around the 63hz crossover point. Try lowering the HPF down.


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

BowDown said:


> Well alot of what is perceived as midbass is more around the 63hz crossover point. Try lowering the HPF down.


Anything wrong with it being set to full?

Does it have anything to do with how they are mounted in the door is my question really...They are solid mounted, but there is no box behind them, just the sealed door. The factory speakers had a thick plastic cup behind them, should I have something like that still?


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

quick checklist:
1. Drivers should be in phase (not acoustically, but + and - should be connected the same way on both sides)
2. Check whether the door's sheet metal is filmsly by playing loud and pressing on the door - if you get more midbass, then you should brace the doors with glue/epoxy covered mdf.
3. Try to connect the woofers without crossover and listen - if you get better midbass, then the coil used in xover is weak (the wire used in coil is too thin).
4. Which wire have you used for power, is your (-) is properly attatched?

I still haven't got the midbass i want, from dual mids


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

S3T said:


> 2. Check whether the door's sheet metal is filmsly by playing loud and pressing on the door - if you get more midbass, then you should brace the doors with glue/epoxy covered mdf.


Why does everyone here seem to have a hard-on for MDF? If doors need to be braced, it should be done with angle steel/aluminum.


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## jcollin76 (Oct 26, 2010)

BowDown said:


> Well alot of what is perceived as midbass is more around the 63hz crossover point. Try lowering the HPF down.


Isn't that backwards? 

I've always thought what was thought as tight accurate bass was in the mb area 80-250Hz or so. And 63Hz is approaching sub bass reproductions. That's what I've always thought anyways. 

Not flaming ya at all, just looking for clarification.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

More power and a good processor never hurts


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Yeah, chest thumping bass is like 80-120Hz


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

S3T said:


> quick checklist:
> 1. Drivers should be in phase (not acoustically, but + and - should be connected the same way on both sides)
> 2. Check whether the door's sheet metal is filmsly by playing loud and pressing on the door - if you get more midbass, then you should brace the doors with glue/epoxy covered mdf.
> 3. Try to connect the woofers without crossover and listen - if you get better midbass, then the coil used in xover is weak (the wire used in coil is too thin).
> ...


1. Both speakers are in phase with all + connections and - connections connected to their correct locations.

2. It's solid. I actually used 22 ga AL to seal the doors so it would add some strength too...It would take a lot more to get them any more solid.

3. Hmm...Interesting. Excuse to go active? :laugh:

4. Are you talking about power to the amp? If so, I'm using 4 ga with a nice ground just a few inches from the amp. (check build thread for pictures).



jcollin76 said:


> Isn't that backwards?
> 
> I've always thought what was thought as tight accurate bass was in the mb area 80-250Hz or so. And 63Hz is approaching sub bass reproductions. That's what I've always thought anyways.
> 
> Not flaming ya at all, just looking for clarification.


I thought the same, hence why I had it set to 80hz and my sub is set to LPF @ 100hz for a little bit of cross over.



trojan fan said:


> More power and a good EQ never hurts


Really? Still mad I sold those PPI's huh? uuuugggghhhh....


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

I use around 63-70 for hpf on midbasses all the time.
Do u have another set of speakers to try? Since I can't hear it couldnt tell you if it's the limitation of ur speakers or the tune


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## jcollin76 (Oct 26, 2010)

It may be just the limitations of the ID's. Not the first time I've read they lack in mb output. Sucks if that's the deal...


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

look into beaming angles and the capabilities of your driver playing the right notes at your ankles. the down side is that if you move them to kicks to improve the beaming issues then you'll lack the air volume to produce the lows you want.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

AWC said:


> look into beaming angles and the capabilities of your driver playing the right notes at your ankles. the down side is that if you move them to kicks to improve the beaming issues then you'll lack the air volume to produce the lows you want.


Beaming isn't the issue. Beaming is a function of a) driver diameter, b) frequency. The larger the driver and/or the higher the frequency, the more it will beam. It's not a problem at these frequencies with any driver that can fit in a car. If we were talking 2kHz or 3kHz or something then yes, beaming would be a discussion topic for sure.


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

I'm going to try opening up the filter again and see if I can hear a difference. I just wasn't sure if it was better to have them in an enclosure rather than the whole door being an enclosure.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> Beaming isn't the issue. Beaming is a function of a) driver diameter, b) frequency. The larger the driver and/or the higher the frequency, the more it will beam. It's not a problem at these frequencies with any driver that can fit in a car. If we were talking 2kHz or 3kHz or something then yes, beaming would be a discussion topic for sure.


ok. check out the drivers pointing at the ankles, that is a problem in every speaker you can fit into a car.

Yes, you're right, though.


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

I just thought I would be able to feel the bass on my leg/ankle from the speaker like I can in my TL. It just feels weak compared to the stock system in my car.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

S3T said:


> quick checklist:
> 
> 3. Try to connect the woofers without crossover and listen - if you get better midbass, then the coil used in xover is weak (the wire used in coil is too thin).


dont think that would be the problem. my xs crossovers have like 16ga coils. plenty big.

hard to say withuot listening to them and see what might be the problem. they are the entry level drivers, maybe they just dont perform well at midbass freq?

I know the xs65 I have from Id rattle my doors plenty. even on deck power you can feel midbass on your leg.


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> Why does everyone here seem to have a hard-on for MDF? If doors need to be braced, it should be done with angle steel/aluminum.


MDF... Because it won't ring, it will just break (if you use a bracing sticks) if car accident happens, and could be easily shaped to your needs... I could use 6mm steel sheets laser cut for my needs, but i decided to go with more health friendly material...



minbari said:


> dont think that would be the problem. my xs crossovers have like 16ga coils. plenty big.


I have changed 14ga aircore to same value 16ga steel core, and got a better midbass impact... It's about inductance resistance losses Vs. core oversaturation...




RedAggie03 said:


> 3. Hmm...Interesting. Excuse to go active? :laugh:
> 
> 4. Are you talking about power to the amp? If so, I'm using 4 ga with a nice ground just a few inches from the amp. (check build thread for pictures).


3. Yes, excuses... Active is better in some ways, as long as it is really better in SQ than passive... I've tried the active way, and came back to passive custom crossovers. They are ugly, but they don't need tons of pricey amplifiers, and the signal chain is clean from audio uglifiers...


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

minbari said:


> dont think that would be the problem. my xs crossovers have like 16ga coils. plenty big.
> 
> hard to say withuot listening to them and see what might be the problem. they are the entry level drivers, maybe they just dont perform well at midbass freq?
> 
> I know the xs65 I have from Id rattle my doors plenty. even on deck power you can feel midbass on your leg.


Are the XS crossovers the same as the CTX ones?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

no, they are not, but I imagine they still build a quality part. (not to mention that the coil gauge will make little difference. even if they are 20ga, it wont change the value of the coils)


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

minbari said:


> no, they are not, but I imagine they still build a quality part. (not to mention that the coil gauge will make little difference. even if they are 20ga, it wont change the value of the coils)


It can limit power handling, of course, and the coils can saturate and cause a rather weird distortion, but I doubt that's what's going on here.


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## duckymcse (Mar 15, 2009)

Why don't you try to bridge your PDX 4.100 to give it more power to your passive crossover and listen to some songs with lots of midbass as loud as you normally listen and adjust the gain from your amp as high as possible before your speaker start to distorted. That should give you some nice strong midbass sound. 



RedAggie03 said:


> ID CTX65CS components
> PDX 4.100
> Sealed doors with Second Skin Pro
> 
> ...


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

duckymcse said:


> Why don't you try to bridge your PDX 4.100 to give it more power to your passive crossover and listen to some songs with lots of midbass as loud as you normally listen and adjust the gain from your amp as high as possible before your speaker start to distorted. That should give you some nice strong midbass sound.


More power will not change frequency response except to flatten it a bit due to power compression. But for the most part, that advice definitely won't help.

Can we all learn to get over the idea that power fixes all problems? It doesn't. Let's stop claiming ridiculous things like a set of speakers needs 300WRMS to "come alive." Really?


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## duckymcse (Mar 15, 2009)

My experience is that if I listen to high volume and using passive crossover, the more power the better it sound. I could be wrong. To the original poster, it does doesn't cause a dime to try it out other than the times to do so. But the times to work on it is a good learning experience, IMO.
Now, if you insist to debate futher, please show proof that more power to the passive crossover does not help much.



dragonrage said:


> More power will not change frequency response except to flatten it a bit due to power compression. But for the most part, that advice definitely won't help.
> 
> Can we all learn to get over the idea that power fixes all problems? It doesn't. Let's stop claiming ridiculous things like a set of speakers needs 300WRMS to "come alive." Really?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Prove what? "it sound better"? Kind of hard to prove a completely subjective statement like that one. If you need someone to prove that in a well designed system the FR is fairly linear with respect to volume level/applied power then maybe you are in the wrong hobby as this is one of the main design goals of any audio system. 

Now if the guy said he was lacking midbass at high volume levels that would be one of many possibilities.


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

Didn't read the all the posts, but one thing to check is to make sure your mid bass drivers and subs are in phase.


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## wooferdog (Mar 31, 2011)

when you say subs and mb drivers in phase is that acoustic phase?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> More power will not change frequency response except to flatten it a bit due to power compression. But for the most part, that advice definitely won't help.
> 
> Can we all learn to get over the idea that power fixes all problems? It doesn't. Let's stop claiming ridiculous things like a set of speakers needs 300WRMS to "come alive." Really?


This is a very subjective matter and you are making some ridiculous claims....the guy is running minimal power to them going through a passive network, so lack of power might just be holding them back....don't get me started :laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Prove what? "it sound better"? Kind of hard to prove a completely subjective statement like that one. If you need someone to prove that in a well designed system the FR is fairly linear with respect to volume level/applied power then maybe you are in the wrong hobby as this is one of the main design goals of any audio system.
> 
> Now if the guy said he was lacking midbass at high volume levels that would be one of many possibilities.


snake thanks for your opinion :bash:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

RedAggie03 said:


> ID CTX65CS components
> PDX 4.100
> Sealed doors with Second Skin Pro
> 
> ...


That Alpine is a little lite in the shorts to run what you have and produce the results you desire.....add another amp :dead_horse:

PM me if you need some help


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I've never heard more power sound worse


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

the xover actually do nothing for the mids they have a natural roll off. just for kicks try reverseing the pos and neg of the speakers on one side. and how much power are you feeding them?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

So you think that he needs more than 100w per channel on efficient midbasses to get good output. Wow! 

Acoustic phase is more likely the culprit. Try swapping the phase as mentioned earlier. 

Try the free stuff first before you spend money on something.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

never said that just asking how much power he was feeding them. those sets are rated at 150 watts rms but what i have noticed from similar threads that 9 out of 10 times the person starts off with feeding them with a lil bit of power then when they give them more they say it sounds way better.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

AWC said:


> I've never heard more power sound worse


x2...exactly.......It always helps....headroom is golden :beerchug:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Horsemanwill said:


> never said that just asking how much power he was feeding them. those sets are rated at 150 watts rms but what i have noticed from similar threads that 9 out of 10 times the person starts off with feeding them with a lil bit of power then when they give them more they say it sounds way better.


x2....exactly....I agree with you 110%

Some people have no experience with something, but post like there experts on the subject


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> So you think that he needs more than 100w per channel on efficient midbasses to get good output. Wow!
> 
> Acoustic phase is more likely the culprit. Try swapping the phase as mentioned earlier.
> 
> Try the free stuff first before you spend money on something.


Yes, to reach the performance he's looking for :laugh:

Do you have any experience with this line of speakers


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Again, for the most part, more power will NOT change frequency response (power compression is minimal, and it tends to flatten things out, anyway). He is NOT claiming that they are not getting loud enough. He is claiming that he doesn't like the frequency response.

I am not AGAINST the idea of more power but if you guys convince him to go buy a bigger amp and it doesn't help (it won't - period), will you compensate him for the bad advice?


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## duckymcse (Mar 15, 2009)

I am not advising him to buy another amp or speakers. I only advice him to bridge the amp. It doesn't cost him anything except the time to do so.
I give my advice, it's up to the original poster to do it or not.
When it come to car audio, anything is possible. You just have to get your hand dirty and experiments to see what work or not.



dragonrage said:


> I am not AGAINST the idea of more power but if you guys convince him to go buy a bigger amp and it doesn't help (it won't - period), will you compensate him for the bad advice?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

RedAggie03 said:


> I'm going to try opening up the filter again and see if I can hear a difference. I just wasn't sure if it was better to have them in an enclosure rather than the whole door being an enclosure.


Yes it is better to have a sealed enclosure. I wish I had my Mid Bass sealed instead of a big ole leaky door.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> Again, for the most part, more power will NOT change frequency response (power compression is minimal, and it tends to flatten things out, anyway). He is NOT claiming that they are not getting loud enough. He is claiming that he doesn't like the frequency response.
> 
> I am not AGAINST the idea of more power but if you guys convince him to go buy a bigger amp and it doesn't help (it won't - period), will you compensate him for the bad advice?


lol. so serial...

Lemme ask this, is raising the output on midbass not going to provide more output on the midbass? Same with a sub, no, with sub notes? You're sayin he has an FR problem but he describes the problem as "weak mid bass". Perhaps you have a deeper understanding of these words...


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

michaelsil1 said:


> Yes it is better to have a sealed enclosure. I wish I had my Mid Bass sealed instead of a big ole leaky door.


that is only true if the speaker is designed to function in a sealed enclosure. if it is not, you will kill midbass even more.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

minbari said:


> that is only true if the speaker is designed to function in a sealed enclosure. if it is not, you will kill midbass even more.


I don't know that I agree with with this at all. :surprised:


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

if you take a woofer/midbass that was designed for IB and you put it in a small sealed enclosure. you are not gonna get good results.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

RedAggie03 said:


> I'm using the passive xovers that came with them, I have the HPF on and adjusted to about 80hz? Even set to full it is not any better really.
> 
> You can see my work in the build thread in my sig.


is your amps internal crossover turned off?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

100 watts per channel from the pdx should be plenty. More watts would give some more headroom and better dynamics but I don't think that is the issue here.

Lower your xover points. Seems you're cutting the sub at 100 and the mid at 80. With the sub is playing well into the 200 range. In real world terms you're hearing the mb from your sub. That will sound like mud. I'd cross the sub and mids around 50hz.

Tother thing is getting your mids in accoustic phase. If you have TA use it, if not try flipping the polarity on your near mid.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

sqnut said:


> 100 watts per channel from the pdx should be plenty. More watts would give some more headroom and better dynamics but I don't think that is the issue here.
> 
> Lower your xover points. Seems you're cutting the sub at 100 and the mid at 80. With the sub is playing well into the 200 range. In real world terms you're hearing the mb from your sub. That will sound like mud. I'd cross the sub and mids around 50hz.
> 
> Tother thing is getting your mids in accoustic phase. If you have TA use it, if not try flipping the polarity on your near mid.


You guys are starting to sound like a broken record :dead_horse:


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

what *click* what *click* what *click* are you talking about? >_>


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

AWC said:


> You're sayin he has an FR problem but he describes the problem as "weak mid bass". Perhaps you have a deeper understanding of these words...


”weak mid-bass" means lacking in frequencies around 80-120Hz or so. It does not mean that he's not getting enough overall volume out of the "mid." (If that's what he means then he explained it incorrectly.)


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

minbari said:


> if you take a woofer/midbass that was designed for IB and you put it in a small sealed enclosure. you are not gonna get good results.


X2...exactly....so don't do it....more power more power

First bridge that whole amp just to the components, and relay the results to us

once you gave them some real power it will bring a smile to your face

This sounds like a SPL issue not a FR problem


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> ”weak mid-bass" means lacking in frequencies around 80-120Hz or so. It does not mean that he's not getting enough overall volume out of the "mid." (If that's what he means then he explained it incorrectly.)


Sounds like a lack of volume that's why I told him to add more power :bash::smash::rifle::whip:

And you said adding more power was ridiculous 


Rage, sometimes you have to read between the lines, now go get back up on the porch :laugh:


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> You guys are starting to sound like a broken record :dead_horse:


This from someone who feels the only solution is to throw more power at the problem. :laugh: You're a riot dude.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

sqnut said:


> This from someone who feels the only solution is to throw more power at the problem. :laugh:


Maybe said broken record just needs more power, too! :laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> Maybe said broken record just needs more power, too! :laugh:


Rage, I thought I told you to get back up on the porch :laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

sqnut said:


> This from someone who feels the only solution is to throw more power at the problem. :laugh: You're a riot dude.


:listenup:Yes, when the obvious problem is a lack of horsepower :argue:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html


Read about midbass below , [from C Music tuning tutorial above ^^^]






> 1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.
> 
> 2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.
> 
> ...


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> ”weak mid-bass" means lacking in frequencies around 80-120Hz or so. It does not mean that he's not getting enough overall volume out of the "mid." (If that's what he means then he explained it incorrectly.)


Well perhaps we should ask him what he means instead of us telling him. 

So bass notes, even those coming from the mdbass, requires a lot of energy. It could be that he needs more power.

It could be, that those notes simply are not playing, so perhaps, its a crossover issue.

It could be that those notes are out of acoustical phase, so electrical phase is the issue.

It could be that those drivers are not entirely to your liking.


Those are the things it could be. I'm not sure what it IS since I've not heard it. That's kind of the impression I had of your situation too...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

What is the HP of the passive x-over ?

He mentioned 80 hZ as an electronic x-over point , 12 db, 18 db, 24 db ?

What is the X-Max of the midbass driver ? { 6 1/2" size }.

IB, should allow for lowest frequency response with "authority", I'd be concerned about psuedo bass from door, except he is lacking midbass in this instance.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

AWC said:


> So bass notes, even those coming from the mdbass, requires a lot of energy. It could be that he needs more power..



That was my first thought......


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

A lot of assumptions and opinions flying around here, so maybe he just needs to take it to a local shop and have them dissect the problem if any...good luck


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> A lot of assumptions and opinions flying around here, so maybe he just needs to take it to a local shop and have them dissect the problem if any...good luck


What a gyp.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

bmiller1 said:


> What a gyp.


Please translate


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

Oh, I was just enjoying the squabble. Plus, this thread was lending some insight to an issue a have. Hey man, all I got to do at work today is read this stuff and stretching this thing out would've made me happy. Your interjection of reason, while appropriate was anticlimactic.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> Urban Dictionary: gyp
> 1. gyp A ripoff; something that is not worth what your are giving for it; refering to gypsies who make their living off of swidling others. What a ****in gyp!
> 
> gyp - definition of gyp by the Free Online Dictionary ...
> ...


doen;t fit, in my opinion


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

Oliver said:


> doen;t fit, in my opinion


Duly noted.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

its fits if emotional reward was his gain and he was robbed of his pleasure with the uselss injection of reason. he signed in for fun dammit.


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

AWC said:


> its fits if emotional reward was his gain and he was robbed of his pleasure with the uselss injection of reason. he signed in for fun dammit.


Thank you.  No reason this can't be fun, guys.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

bmiller1 said:


> Oh, I was just enjoying the squabble. Plus, this thread was lending some insight to an issue a have. Hey man, all I got to do at work today is read this stuff and stretching this thing out would've made me happy. Your interjection of reason, while appropriate was anticlimactic.


Sorry you didn't reach your climax :laugh:


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> Sorry you didn't reach your climax :laugh:


Well played, sir.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

bmiller1 said:


> Thank you.  No reason this can't be fun, guys.


Thanks for your response.......I'm all for fun :beerchug :


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## bmiller1 (Mar 7, 2010)

:rockon::rockon:Hey, I learned something too. I had a similar issue and I was going to double the power to my mids tomorrow and, now.....I'm still going to.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Glad this lightened up a bit.

I also think more power would do the trick. I just added a ton more power to my Dyns and there's definitely more "pop" in the midbass even at the same listening levels. After adding more power in several stages I'm a firm believer of running way more power than you think you need so it can handle the peaks with ease instead of sounding compressed.

I also go against the grain and run my subs higher than most. If you have a sub that's capable and the means to keep the bass up front, try running the subs up higher. I have mine at 95hz and it sounds great. What's going to play 80-100hz with more authority, a pair of 15s or a pair of 6.5s? The 15s slam in the range that most people reserve for the 6.5s.

What's going to have an easier time reproducing those frequencies, the sub stage with a Vd of 31,540cm or the midbass with Vd of 1,200?

I ran the ID CTX65s for a year or two and while I was impressed with the midbass, after hearing lots of high end systems since initially installing them, I realize their midbass is great for the price range but kind of average. My Dyn 7" absolutely blow the IDs away in midbass and they're not known for exceptional midbass.

Some of the frequencies that I always thought were midbass are actually coming from my mids. The majority of the snare is coming from my 3" domes that are high passed at 950hz.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

RedAggie, where are you ?.... please respond


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

I also have a midbass suck out. 70hz and 100hz its fine, but 120hz drops heavily in level. This is done with test tones. I'm running plenty of power to each component set...over 200w and it gets plenty loud, but 120hz just sucks, and a lot of songs that I listen to have 120hz content. The does doors are mostly sealed, the best I could without fabricating panels and fully deadened.

Do you guys think its a acoustic phase issue? Our just a problem with the layout of my car? 
I don't have other midbass drivers to test with.

I love the clear mids I get, but the lack of midbass kills some of the enjoyment.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

In all of this, acoustic phase is likely the culprit, especially if the speakers are mounted in the doors--it's a function of distance to the listener. 

JSRacing, Try your experiment with only one of the doors playing. If you still hear a suckout, then you ought to check your crossober points and try reversing the polarity of your sub. If you don't hear the suckout, then you need time alignment (or to set it properly if you have it). 

Building a box in the door is most definitely not the answer and neither is more power if the problem is an acoustic one. IF you have mostly flat response from 80-500Hz, and you don't have enough midbass, then power is probably the answer (and a speaker that will make use of that power).


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

Check this out, 
PhaseDeviator: Investigating wave interference between misaligned speakers. 

You get the suckout on 120hz if you have L/R difference of 1.4m.
If you flip the phase, the suckout rises to 240hz, and, in addition, you get suckout on the lower end (0-100hz). Less harsh on the response, but more pronounced in it's power. You loose cca 6db, which is both "3db" rise from summing right and left, and a bit of suckout from phase differences.

Time aligment should fix this without phase reversal.

Suckouts sucks...


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

Andy,

Thanks for the great suggestions. I've tried changing the crossover point between 80 and 50hz, and even ran it full range with no change in the suck out, but I haven't tried it with just one side running. 
I'll try the following:

1. Run one side only with normal polarity
2. Switch polarity of one side and play both sides
3. Change polarity of sub

As before, I'll do this with test tones at 70, 100, & 120hz. I dont have TA, but have been thinking of getting a new HU with TA.

Any other troubleshooting suggestions are welcome.
Thanks

S3T - just saw your post. Thats great info. Seems like 1.4m is about the average width of most cars. Strange though that I have a suck out while my friends don't, but we have different cars and components, but our cars are about the same size.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer Quote (bolding added for emphasis):



> In all of this, *acoustic phase *is likely the culprit, especially if the speakers are mounted in the doors--it's a function of distance to the listener.
> 
> JSRacing, Try your experiment with only one of the doors playing. If you still hear a suckout, then you ought to check your crossober points and try reversing the polarity of your sub. If you don't hear the suckout, then you need time alignment (or to set it properly if you have it).
> 
> Building a box in the door is most definitely not the answer and neither is more power if the problem is an acoustic one. IF you have mostly flat response from 80-500Hz, and you don't have enough midbass, then power is probably the answer (and a speaker that will make use of that power).


My Quote:



> So you think that he needs more than 100w per channel on efficient midbasses to get good output. Wow!
> 
> *Acoustic phase *is more likely the culprit. Try swapping the phase as mentioned earlier.
> 
> Try the free stuff first before you spend money on something.


Hmmmmm, sounds pretty similar but mo' power yeah that's what I meant 

Having issues with these freqs in cars is a very common problem and IMO not one that is easy to fix. A simple 180 degree phase swap is worth a try but likely won't eliminate the problem completely, You can try a TA approach to phase manipulation but that will likely hurt the integration with other drivers and can (likely will) throw the imaging off (that is why I broke down and installed a processor with fine phase control - 1 degree increments). If you can remove the troubled freqs from the pass band of the midbasses (use subs to cover them) then you will likely have better results although that usually causes other issues such as localization to pop up. I don't believe that this is a simple issue to address, to the OP good luck!


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

SSSnake said:


> Andy Wehmeyer Quote (bolding added for emphasis):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man how old are you? Reminds me of picking me kid up from daycare and the kids always have to have the last word. Silly.


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## Robb (Dec 5, 2008)

trojan fan said:


> More power and a good processor never hurts


This.. 120 clean watts rms should suffice.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

What happened to the guy that started this thread....oke:


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

Well, it's discussion forum, ain't it?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

S3T said:


> Well, it's discussion forum, ain't it?


His input would be helpful :bash:

Post all you want, be my guest :laugh:


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> What happened to the guy that started this thread....oke:


Oops, sorry guys...I was busy finishing my truck and getting married. I'm sure you can understand how busy I was. Well, I came back to get caught up and I got a great laugh from this thread. Ya'll are HI-larious. 

To be honest, I am going to go to the even this Saturday in Houston and let some of the other guys take a listen. I know Chris Pate from way back, so maybe I can snag some of his time for my low budget build. 

I appreciate all of the feedback and I will work through it all in time. I think the first thing I can tell you is that volume is not really an issue. I do have the gains higer than I would like, but I am chalking that up to the fact that my HU has only 2v outputs...?? I don't know if that really makes a difference though. Overall the system sounds really nice, but I really do still feel like I get 80% of my bass from my 8" sub.

More to come later, gotta run for now.


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## Sarthos (Oct 29, 2010)

No reason to throw more power at it if it has enough power.

You should check to see if the amp is putting out enough power
ie: throw in a CD with test tones and test the AC output of the amplifier (before and after the passive crossover). See if for some reason the power output drops really badly on low notes. If you notice a 1 kHz note puts out say 20 volts, but your 100 Hz note puts out 10 and the 70 Hz note puts out 6, then you know that the amp is having trouble outputting power at low frequencies.


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

My main problem with all of this testing everyone is proposing is that everything is under my seat...so I have to pull the seat to play. So one of these weekends I'll print this thread out and go try all of this stuff out.

UPDATE: I found a great deal on another PDX, so I'm adding a dedicated sub amp and bridging my 4.100...I'll have 200x2 for the comps and 600x1 for my sub. That should be more than enough power.


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## Sarthos (Oct 29, 2010)

Maybe, maybe not. If you buy an extra amp and that doesn't fix the problem you're not gonna be happy with the money you spent.


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

Oh well, we'll see what happens.


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## fj60landcruiser (Oct 10, 2011)

Any updates? Did your addition of another Amp solve your issues?


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