# One of the best sounding cars I've ever heard



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Yesterday I took a cruise across town to have a listen to Gary Summers' competition car. 


Wow. This thing sounds great. Of course, since he mixes movies in multichannel, his car will do stereo in one seat or multichannel. The stereo system is maybe the best one seat car I've ever heard. Completely awesome. 
I liked the multichannel presentation much more.


Chatting with Gary about his part of the audio industry was also enlightening.

Thanks for the great day, Gary!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

so he used an ms-8?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2016)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yesterday I took a cruise across town to have a listen to Gary Summers' competition car.
> 
> 
> Wow. This thing sounds great. Of course, since he mixes movies in multichannel, his car will do stereo in one seat or multichannel. The stereo system is maybe the best one seat car I've ever heard. Completely awesome.
> ...



Andy,

You and Gary need to put your thoughts together on mobile multi-channel.... maybe a joint venture....
I believe Gary has been in talks with various OEM's about offering better solutions.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

benny z said:


> so he used an ms-8?


He says he doesn't use an upmixer. He plays discrete multichannel when he plays multichannel.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> He says he doesn't use an upmixer. He plays discrete multichannel when he plays multichannel.


cool.

the best multichannel car i've ever heard is natan budiano's current car. i know he is using a one-off processor he designed/built... need to talk to him more about it. it truly sounds amazing and the same from both front seats.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I enjoyed my demo very much also. I wish I had one of my cd's to appreciate It even more, not sure if that option is available.
Most of it was vocals, classical and good demo clean tracks, the experience could not be better.

I'll do it again, if I get another opportunity.

Morel drivers, subs, alpine DSP's and class D amps


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I've heard Natan's and Gary's. Heard Natan's at Finals and Gary's way back in 2010. Both were impressive. I listened to Natan's long enough to get a feel for it, but didn't in Gary's. John Kiser and I shared the demo and took turns in each seat of Natan's. I was really impressed with how Natan's sounded from both seats. (at the time, I didn't realize he wasn't running a center channel which really blew my mind, but was told later he was). But I can't honestly say it's my favorite from either seat (that's not a dis toward him by any means, just an honest subjective feedback). It's been far too long and my demo in Gary's car was too short to really say anything about it other than, I recall at the time being very impressed by the surround sound demo he gave me and most impressed by how down to the earth he was. I had no idea the dude was a multi-Oscar winner for sound and I would never have known if someone hadn't told me after the fact. I share emails now and again with Gary and kind of get that "whoa, he talked to me" feeling now and again. lol

If we are talking most impressive, to date I'd have to say Kirk Profitt's and Mark Eldridge's at finals last year have been the most impressive to me for different reasons. Kirk's car is what got me in to this hobby.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

He runs every set passive right? I was planning my car around his but 7 channels.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

ErinH said:


> If we are talking most impressive, to date I'd have to say Kirk Profitt's and Mark Eldridge's at finals last year have been the most impressive to me for different reasons. Kirk's car is what got me in to this hobby.


Richards car must also have been right up there, iirc there was a half point difference between KP and Richard.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Alrojoca said:


> I enjoyed my demo very much also. I wish I had one of my cd's to appreciate It even more, not sure if that option is available.
> Most of it was vocals, classical and good demo clean tracks, the experience could not be better.
> 
> I'll do it again, if I get another opportunity.
> ...


Interesting... I'm using Morel, but a 360.3 and probably US Acoustics for amps.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

ErinH said:


> I was really impressed with how Natan's sounded from both seats. (at the time, I didn't realize he wasn't running a center channel which really blew my mind, but was told later he was).


i did not know until 1/2-way through my demo. i was in the driver's seat and i was describing what i was hearing to him, we started talking about it, and he pointed out that it did have a center channel, but that it really didn't make any difference. i gave him a puzzled look and he said "here, watch this" - put a folded towel over the center speaker, and it honestly didn't change.

i was also asking him about the midranges in the little sealed pods and asked about heat issues, if they choked at volume, etc... rick nichols uses the same drivers in the same little pods on the dash and i like his car a lot, too. he got a big grin on his face, said "watch this!", and CRANKED the volume knob...easily to 115+ db music...lmao! it held together surprisingly well! that was a memorable experience for sure lol.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

ErinH said:


> If we are talking most impressive, to date I'd have to say Kirk Profitt's and Mark Eldridge's at finals last year have been the most impressive to me for different reasons. Kirk's car is what got me in to this hobby.


I have to agree about Kirk's and Mark's, also for different reasons. Nobody's car stages like Mark's does and his focus was really on this past year. Unfortunately the scoresheet doesn't reflect the staging capabilities that car has. 

The realism in Kirk's was one of the best I've ever heard.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i really wish i had heard kirk's. i went by his car twice and he was away both times.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Richards car must also have been right up there, iirc there was a half point difference between KP and Richard.


I listened to Richards as well. I didn't feel they were as close as the final scores reflected. But that's the nature of this kind of hobby.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

back in 80th I thought Korg poly 800 was best **** since Robert`s Mood original.
in early 2000 I`ve bought one at garage sale for 20 bucks- never heard ****ties parody on analog synthesizers..... point being- what you heard in the past doesn't matter.
Unless you listening side to side at the same time all previous observations 100% irrelevant.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

ErinH said:


> I listened to Richards as well. I didn't feel they were as close as the final scores reflected. But that's the nature of this kind of hobby.


I trust your judgement, but just wow!! both for the implication and the boldness of saying it out loud.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I trust your judgement, but just wow!! both for the implication and the boldness of saying it out loud.



Don't forget mr nut, that event though we're all after the same common goals, opinion and tastes are gonna rule when you pick your favorite. This is the human factor and is unavoidable. When great cars get together, one is gonna suit your ears better, and be your favorite, while I may pick a different one. The score sheets put weight in categories that may or may not reflect your personal desires in a listening experience.....


Btw, I would love to hear gary's car, everyone who demos it loves it. I have to agree with the mention of Kirks acura, I've heard it a couple times and blew me away at the things it can do both times. The nascar is stunning as well, but it just doesent seem to fit the same category as my favorites because of its "custom built around the system" interior. I mean yes it sounds amazing, but, ****in a, it aught to........


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

claydo said:


> Don't forget mr nut, that event though we're all after the same common goals, opinion and tastes are gonna rule when you pick your favorite. This is the human factor and is unavoidable. When great cars get together, one is gonna suit your ears better, and be your favorite, while I may pick a different one. The score sheets put weight in categories that may or may not reflect your personal desires in a listening experience.....


Come to think of it, judges are like really good umpires and they're going to get 99% of decisions right. Players kinda accept the 1% as part of the game. I think they are trained to benchmark cars against the same ref sound. I don't think personal preference is a major factor. After all they get 99% of decisions spot on, where there's no debate. The 1% is just human error, can happen to the best judge / umpire and part of the sport as Erin mentioned.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Naw nut.....ya missed my point. The judges judge to the score card. When you ask someone what their favorite was, they use their opinion. When judges score I don't think they are supposed to compare sessions between cars......fill in the sheet, we will tally a winner, I don't believe they pick a winner while listening....just to keep opinion out of it......they tally the sheets for the winner.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Here is a not very good shot I took of the set up, 5 PDX F 6 amps and the mono for the 2 subs. 
I may be wrong, maybe the use of passives are only for the rear fill, or just tweeters and midrange.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Come to think of it, judges are like really good umpires and they're going to get 99% of decisions right. Players kinda accept the 1% as part of the game. I think they are trained to benchmark cars against the same ref sound. I don't think personal preference is a major factor. After all they get 99% of decisions spot on, where there's no debate. The 1% is just human error, can happen to the best judge / umpire and part of the sport as Erin mentioned.


Hate to break it to you, but pretty much all of your assertions are incorrect in one way or another.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sqnut said:


> I trust your judgement, but just wow!! both for the implication and the boldness of saying it out loud.





claydo said:


> Don't forget mr nut, that event though we're all after the same common goals, opinion and tastes are gonna rule when you pick your favorite. This is the human factor and is unavoidable. When great cars get together, one is gonna suit your ears better, and be your favorite, while I may pick a different one. The score sheets put weight in categories that may or may not reflect your personal desires in a listening experience.....


Right. That's what I meant when I said "that's the nature of the hobby".

I listened to _a lo_t of cars at finals but definitely not all. I'm pretty sure I listened to every car that placed in the Top 3 sans a few. All the ones I listened to absolutely sounded good, and some were great. However, Kirk's and Mark's cars stood out to me by a wide margin. Both were on such a different level from everyone that weekend... they were just plain awesome in every aspect. The kind of level I aspire to be with my own system. This thread is regarding cars that are "the best I've ever heard", so that's what I'm drawing from. If I were scoring with a score sheet, I would have scored things differently in some instances but that's the nature of the hobby, as I mentioned. So my thoughts on what I heard are just that. Nothing more, nothing less. Certainly not a 'diss' or anything of that nature to the other cars I didn't include.

I don't think anyone really cares about my opinion to the degree I need to give specifics, but I certainly don't mind embellishing on why I liked Kirk's and Mark's if people _are _interested.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

claydo said:


> Naw nut.....ya missed my point. The judges judge to the score card. When you ask someone what their favorite was, they use their opinion. When judges score I don't think they are supposed to compare sessions between cars......fill in the sheet, we will tally a winner, I don't believe they pick a winner while listening....just to keep opinion out of it......they tally the sheets for the winner.


lol I'm nt suggesting judges score cars against each other. For every parameter on the score card the judge will have a ref in his / her and that ref is 10/10. The car car is scored for every parameter against this ref. That's the only way to score the cars.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

pocket5s said:


> Hate to break it to you, but pretty much all of your assertions are incorrect in one way or another.


ok, educate me.....seriously.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> Here is a not very good shot I took of the set up, 5 PDX F 6 amps and the mono for the 2 subs.
> I may be wrong, maybe the use of passives are only for the rear fill, or just tweeters and midrange.


What is before the amps? It has to be a crossover.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> lol I'm nt suggesting judges score cars against each other. For every parameter on the score card the judge will have a ref in his / her and that ref is 10/10. The car car is scored for every parameter against this ref. That's the only way to score the cars.


You score cars off a check list.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

ErinH said:


> I don't think anyone really cares about my opinion to the degree I need to give specifics, but I certainly don't mind embellishing on why I liked Kirk's and Mark's if people _are _interested.


I am interested, both to hear about those cars since I'll never get to hear them and equally to hear you using subjective terms


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2016)

DDfusion said:


> What is before the amps? It has to be a crossover.


I'm assuming since he is using two (2) F#1 processors... this is an all active setup... just an assumption though...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> You score cars off a check list.


Sigh, of course they score off a check list, but I'm talking about how do they score each parameter? How do they rate stage width 7.5 or 9.5? By having a ref in their head for what is 10/10 and then rating the car against that. How do they rate each aspect of tonality? By having a ref........


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

SQ_TSX said:


> I'm assuming since he is using two (2) F#1 processors... this is an all active setup... just an assumption though...


Plus an H800...


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

sqnut said:


> lol I'm nt suggesting judges score cars against each other. For every parameter on the score card the judge will have a ref in his / her and that ref is 10/10. The car car is scored for every parameter against this ref. That's the only way to score the cars.





sqnut said:


> Sigh, of course they score off a check list, but I'm talking about how do they score each parameter? How do they rate stage width 7.5 or 9.5? By having a ref in their head for what is 10/10 and then rating the car against that. How do they rate each aspect of tonality? By having a ref........


Don't worry nut, you know how they score, evidenced in the first quoted post. I wouldn't bother trying to argue semantics with Mr fusion.....lmao.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

claydo said:


> Don't worry nut, you know how they score, evidenced in the first quoted post. I wouldn't bother trying to argue semantics with Mr fusion.....lmao.


You're spot on Mr. Clay.


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

ErinH said:


> I don't think anyone really cares about my opinion to the degree I need to give specifics, but I certainly don't mind embellishing on why I liked Kirk's and Mark's if people _are _interested.


I'm interested.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Gary's car is all active. And like drthjta mentioned, two F#1's and a H800.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> You're spot on Mr. Clay.


Why do you do this to yourself


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> Why do you do this to yourself


Because unlike you, I don't have an issue accepting when someone makes a valid point. Give it up dude you'll always be dumb.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Jesus Christ, guys, chill. 

Let's stick to the topic of discussing the cars we enjoyed and maybe have some discussion on that instead of bashing each other every opportunity. This keyboard commando stuff is getting old.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The hell with DDF, lets hear about KP and Eldridges car.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok....I'm down for that! While I'm not as respected and as experienced as our buddy erin......I can offer up a lil about my demos in the two. I haven't heard the latest iteration of either guys cars....but the two demos of Kirks were very simular. Only one demo of marks, but he let me enjoy it and it wasn't rushed even tho there was a line, seemed like a helluva guy. Kirks car is one of those rare few that are technically almost perfect, yet still able to rock your world with a level of dynamics that will leave you giddy........in my time in it, both demos, I came in listening for problems, but wound up just enjoying the hell out of the music, it's wide, deep, solid, and free of the usual nits you can pick in most cars. The most impressive factor for me tho is its ability to hold all the technical aspects together at rediculous high levels......amazing! The nascar is a different experience from most cars altogether.......to me it's biggest strength was the ability for the car to disappear and offers an unreal lack of staging borders. A truly fun demo, that like Kirks offers really no niggles to ***** about. My only issue with it is how it was started from a blank canvas, something rather unrealistic for anyone actually using their car. Both cars are amazing feats in their own right.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Geez...I'm now sorry I started this thread. 

In fact, every time I come here now it's tantamount to my lazy inclination to grab a burger at McDonald's. I KNOW I'm going to regret it later either sitting on the toilet 50 times remembering that eating that crap gives me diarrhea or sitting in front of my computer screen reading the watery **** that appears after my post.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

That deserves a like button...


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

To me it's a total shame that he feels that way.

There are 5,500 active members on this forum and 7 billion people on this planet, why in the hell can't the VERY small group of car stereo people get along... EVER??


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2016)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Geez...I'm now sorry I started this thread.
> 
> In fact, every time I come here now it's tantamount to my lazy inclination to grab a burger at McDonald's. I KNOW I'm going to regret it later either sitting on the toilet 50 times remembering that eating that crap gives me diarrhea or sitting in front of my computer screen reading the watery **** that appears after my post.


....That was incredibly eloquent....


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Geez...I'm now sorry I started this thread.
> 
> In fact, every time I come here now it's tantamount to my lazy inclination to grab a burger at McDonald's. I KNOW I'm going to regret it later either sitting on the toilet 50 times remembering that eating that crap gives me diarrhea or sitting in front of my computer screen reading the watery **** that appears after my post.


Aw cmon andy, don't get hung up on useless banter and arguments after yer post. It's a great thread for folks to recognize their favorite cars, and a pat on the back to the creators of said cars. I'm sure gary appreciates the acknowledgement from you, and it's a nice idea to hear what others feel to be their favorite too. The traffic here is high, there is history amongst the members, and drivel is going to clog the interesting reading at times, but the varied opinions and statements of this site is part of the draw.........you just have to learn to filter out some of the bs.....


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Right. My sole objective with the post was to recognize Gary's achievement with the sound of his car.


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## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

Andy, I am sorry that you feel that posting on DIYMA has become a bash session. I appreciate your knowledge and out of the box thinking. You have some great products, hopefully some day I get to use them. Don't leave just because some have to debate everything. I work on ignoring all those and try to weed through all the items that I need to know or want to learn.

You just mentioned how awesome someone's car sounded, then it turns into a session on how judging is handled, how people hear, etc. Let's keep on topic of what is being talked about. *How great a car sounded*. If you don't have anything good to say about it, link to a new thread and start the bashing there. No reason to cloud up a thread with stuff that is unnecessary. 

Also, keep in mind, letters on a page don't express emotion and tone. Emoticons help, but nothing will replace one on one talking and face to face. Please keep it civil. Lets respect everyone's opinion, because in the US, we have that right. Arguments only waste time unless you can quantify the results you are pushing to and is convincing to the other party. How may times have you argued with someone and you convinced them, not defeat them, that your opinion or knowledge was correct.

Thanks, Now I can get off my soap box. Here are some emoticons to help you. :surprised::laugh::blush::mean:


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Geez...I'm now sorry I started this thread.
> 
> In fact, every time I come here now it's tantamount to my lazy inclination to grab a burger at McDonald's. I KNOW I'm going to regret it later either sitting on the toilet 50 times remembering that eating that crap gives me diarrhea or sitting in front of my computer screen reading the watery **** that appears after my post.


Been laughing out loud at this. Can't stop grinning. Masterful play on words, Andy. Just laughed again...


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

claydo said:


> Aw cmon andy, don't get hung up on useless banter and arguments after yer post. It's a great thread for folks to recognize their favorite cars, and a pat on the back to the creators of said cars. I'm sure gary appreciates the acknowledgement from you, and it's a nice idea to hear what others feel to be their favorite too. The traffic here is high, there is history amongst the members, and drivel is going to clog the interesting reading at times, but the varied opinions and statements of this site is part of the draw.........you just have to learn to filter out some of the bs.....


Yeah, I get it. I'm not sure that devoting energy to filtering the effluvia is worth the effort when there are so many other things to do...like sit outside and wait for a breeze to dislodge another palm frond or watch the moss grow on the side of the tree in the backyard.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Right. My sole objective with the post was to recognize Gary's achievement with the sound of his car.


Cool, you did that, very well. You also opened a thread, as in here's a statement...what are your thoughts. If you expected a one post thread maybe bumping gary's build log would have been more appropriate?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Clearly I need more experience in the forums to better understand how they work.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

johnbooth3 said:


> Andy, I am sorry that you feel that posting on DIYMA has become a bash session. I appreciate your knowledge and out of the box thinking. You have some great products, hopefully some day I get to use them. Don't leave just because some have to debate everything. I work on ignoring all those and try to weed through all the items that I need to know or want to learn.
> 
> You just mentioned how awesome someone's car sounded, then it turns into a session on how judging is handled, how people hear, etc. Let's keep on topic of what is being talked about. *How great a car sounded*. If you don't have anything good to say about it, link to a new thread and start the bashing there. No reason to cloud up a thread with stuff that is unnecessary.
> 
> ...


I think respecting everyone's right to HAVE an opinion isn't the issue. Requests to respect the validity of every opinion regardless of the qualification of the one submitting it are why making progress is so hard. 

You have every right to believe that the world is flat even though it's incorrect.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yeah, I get it. I'm not sure that devoting energy to filtering the effluvia is worth the effort when there are so many other things to do...like sit outside and wait for a breeze to dislodge another palm frond or watch the moss grow on the side of the tree in the backyard.


That's cool too, if you don't enjoy the debates (as silly as they can be at times) and all the banter, that's all good. Gathering with folks and discussing topics that we all enjoy is fun for me, and the differences in opinion are good at keeping the technical nature of our hobby (or your profession) from being too boring. As bad as some want the forums to be solely a place to exchange information, there are just as many who view them as a source of entertainment.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

^^ This is precisely my point. I am engaging in the banter and entertaining myself at the forum's expense. So, my trolling is no different than your trolling except that my trolling wastes YOUR time and energy.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ This is precisely my point. I am engaging in the banter and entertaining myself at the forum's expense. So, my trolling is no different than your trolling except that my trolling wastes YOUR time and energy.


Your definition of trolling is obviously different than mine. I'm solely engaging in a conversation. Conversations are content, content is the forums only value. I don't see how continued debate or healthy arguments are detrimental to any forum......I see plenty of trolling on this site, and maybe I'm wrong on the definition, but I consider trolling as personal badgering or provocation......not simple disagreement........

Btw, engaging an industry person such as yerself in conversation, is exactly why I love this format of communication. How else is a hobbiest from nowhereville, usa gonna grab the ear of an audio companies creator....lol.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Sigh, of course they score off a check list, but I'm talking about how do they score each parameter? How do they rate stage width 7.5 or 9.5? By having a ref in their head for what is 10/10 and then rating the car against that. How do they rate each aspect of tonality? By having a ref........


To answer your question which is pointless since you know everything and ignore all physical proof. There are books for the test music that shows where everything should be and how it should sound. The closer you are the better the score. 

Since you will ignore me anyway, maybe somebody will get something out of this post.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> To answer your question which is pointless since you know everything and ignore all physical proof. There are books for the test music that shows where everything should be and how it should sound. The closer you are the better the score.
> 
> Since you will ignore me anyway, maybe somebody will get something out of this post.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)




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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ This is precisely my point. I am engaging in the banter and entertaining myself at the forum's expense. So, my trolling is no different than your trolling except that my trolling wastes YOUR time and energy.


Lmao


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

For Andy to say this about Gary's car just solidifies the reasoning why I'm shamelessly copying gary summers Mercedes (or at least putting my own spin on it). Lol


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## jonah1810 (Apr 16, 2015)

I wish somebody near me was a sq competitors, the best car I've ever heard is my own, and that makes it hard to know what i should be aiming for during tuning


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)




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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

hot9dog said:


> For Andy to say this about Gary's car just solidifies the reasoning why I'm shamelessly copying gary summers Mercedes (or at least putting my own spin on it). Lol


And get his settings for the system tailored to recordings he made. That will be tough


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

oabeieo said:


> And get his settings for the system tailored to recordings he made. That will be tough


Well.... that's where "my own spin on it" comes in. Perfection will never be my goal, but to follow on the path towards it - that will be good enough for me. I want to run 2 qty. H800 DSP's and have a single RUX controller for volume control for both of them. The next step in this path is to hack into my RUX and figure out IF this can be done.....


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

Great thread Andy, truly hope you never lose your desire to participate on the forums as your posts/threads are pure nuggets of wisdom.


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

Question on tuning difference between music vs. movie.

Granted my situation, stereo for both music and movie... multichannel being downmixed. 

I find my tune for music sounds rather good, but when I watch a movie the same tune the movie dialogue seems to have more of an echo/hollow sound to it.

Was curious if this could be because of a difference in mixing Dolby/Dts compared to music? Or even 48/24 vs 41/16?


Im thinking I just need to have two separate tunes.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Gary's car is all active. And like drthjta mentioned, two F#1's and a H800.


I've talked to Gary about this and he's running two Alpine H990's from Japan and one H800.

http://vault.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/PXI-H990 INSTALL MNL.PDF


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Geez...I'm now sorry I started this thread.
> 
> In fact, every time I come here now it's tantamount to my lazy inclination to grab a burger at McDonald's. I KNOW I'm going to regret it later either sitting on the toilet 50 times remembering that eating that crap gives me diarrhea or sitting in front of my computer screen reading the watery **** that appears after my post.


Yep.
It appears Andy you have two puppy dogs that follow you everywhere.
There constant nipping at each others testicles trying to gain attention is getting old.
Really old.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

hot9dog said:


> Well.... that's where "my own spin on it" comes in. Perfection will never be my goal, but to follow on the path towards it - that will be good enough for me. I want to run 2 qty. H800 DSP's and have a single RUX controller for volume control for both of them. The next step in this path is to hack into my RUX and figure out IF this can be done.....


If your using the same gear it will be fantastic, I was just pokin fun


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yep.
> It appears Andy you have two puppy dogs that follow you everywhere.
> There constant nipping at each others testicles trying to gain attention is getting old.
> Really old.


Why don't senior members correct the bad information? Than I wouldn't get flamed for doing it.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Why don't senior members correct the bad information? Than I wouldn't get flamed for doing it.


IIRC andy is a senior member.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Off subject: 

Andy , I did what you said , I learned auto eq on REW. Thank you for the nudge . 
I came up with a totally diffrent tune that I wouldn't have ever done on my own. And it's badass!!!! 

My problem before was the left FS was so diffrent from the right when I flattened the responce so that both sides matched the left side sounded like a$$ 

Now I'm using channel gain along with eq and followed REWs reccomendation and a bit of smoothing in areas where it said to boost.

By changing channel level and making the left right channel levels match before eq it came up with fantastic results. Again thank you very much! 

I want to learn more now. After 15 try's or so I kinda got the hang of what it was trying to do and the corrections it was suggested started to make sense.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I've talked to Gary about this and he's running two Alpine H990's from Japan and one H800.
> 
> http://vault.alpine-usa.com/products/documents/PXI-H990 INSTALL MNL.PDF


Yep, was kinda half here while posting, bad day. Anyways, I do agree with Andy, in that Gary's car is the best I've heard.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Dang, I'd like hear it sometime. Sounds like a surreal experience for sure.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yesterday I took a cruise across town to have a listen to Gary Summers' competition car.
> 
> 
> Wow. This thing sounds great. Of course, since he mixes movies in multichannel, his car will do stereo in one seat or multichannel. The stereo system is maybe the best one seat car I've ever heard. Completely awesome.
> ...


I have thanked Andy for his kind words privately so this post will serve as the same publicly.

I just wanted to post some details about my car to clear up any confusion about the system.

View attachment FULLDIAGRAM.pdf


This is a flow chart and diagram of the system as it is today. It is fully active 3 way front and rear with subs. The center channel is two way with bass management in the Alpine PXA-H990 processor to send everything in the center below 315hz to left and right equally. This is referred to as "Bass Sum" in Alpine's world. I think the diagrams should answer any questions about the system.

This is a link to a recent re-build log if interested;

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...es-c230-re-build-scott-babson-kustom-kar.html

Also this link to the sealed door enclosure build;

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/139236-mercedes-midbass-enclosures.html

While I'm here I want to give full credit to Scott Babson at Kustom Kar Audio for all his patience and super talent over the years building my car. Without his abilities the car would never be where it is today. We have become friends and I throughly enjoy my time at the shop.

What's next?

This is a flow chart of a planned upgrade to the system. The purpose of the upgrade is to have more power available for the Morel Supremo mid-basses.
The four mid-basses will each get 500 watts. The front left and right mids will stay the same at 300 watts each. all other drivers will go from 150 watts each to 200 watts each. 

View attachment Flow Chart2.pdf


Thanks for viewing and thanks to the other folks who have commented so kindly about their demo experiences in my car.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

garysummers said:


> I have thanked Andy for his kind words privately so this post will serve as the same publicly.
> 
> I just wanted to post some details about my car to clear up any confusion about the system.
> 
> ...


Nice build , 

It's refreshing to see you don't have to have triple 0ga going into one amp to power it addiquately. Properly wired works just fine. Not saying I'm against overkill , but I like to see those details in a install.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

just think how awesome gary's car would be with A/B amps and some FULL/DA!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

jtaudioacc said:


> just think how awesome gary's car would be with A/B amps and some FULL/DA!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


:laugh::laugh::laugh: good one!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Yep.
> It appears Andy you have two puppy dogs that follow you everywhere.
> There constant nipping at each others testicles trying to gain attention is getting old.
> Really old.


As an administrator you're supposed to stay strictly objective, Caesars wife must _always_ be above suspicion. 

Yes the last few threads have witnessed plenty of drama, but to my mind the moot issue is if the forum is tolerant of and accepts an alternate POV. A POV that is proven in the lanes and validated by an assortment of people. 

Within this, Andy and his band of supporters (I see you as one of the two you mention, we all know who the second is) represent one end of the spectrum and they want to use all means at hand including, but not limited to using authority, name calling, ganging up, throwing childish tantrums, to using their puppy dogs to constantly snipe and instigate, or maybe the pups are freelancers, who cares. Rude posts are conveniently pulled, threads get closed because one person got butt hurt etc etc. This crap is what is really getting old, then again it's just an alternate POV.

What's really funny and ironic is that Andy starts this thread to validate a car that's largely tuned by ear, poetic justice. Are we a tolerant forum or do our beliefs make us paranoid of an alternate view?


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Very cool thread. I really like the system layout. It's kinda like what I'm working on doing with mine on the front stage minus the center channel. I really like pillar locations for my drivers but have been worried about how they'll stack up against some of the guys in Extreme with rebuilt dashes and drivers mounted in the firewalls and such. Coming from Andy this is high praise indeed and kinda alleviates some of my fears of what I'm planning on. Thanks also for the system diagram Gary.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

oabeieo said:


> Off subject:
> 
> Andy , I did what you said , I learned auto eq on REW. Thank you for the nudge .
> I came up with a totally diffrent tune that I wouldn't have ever done on my own. And it's badass!!!!
> ...


Cool.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

From an install perspective Gary's car looks like it has a lot going for it. Front L+R mids/tweets pushed back in the far corners of the dash, pretty much on-axis and unobstructed. Center channel is also clear of obstructions with drivers mounted vertical. And the midbass are in sealed door pods. The install sets the car up for audio nivrana. However, with those windshield obstructions I could never drive a car like that as my daily. In some ways cars that still retain the factory appearance yet sound amazing can be just as impressive when you consider what it takes to pull it off.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

i really need to get out to some shows this coming season and listen to these cars,


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

gregerst22 said:


> From an install perspective Gary's car looks like it has a lot going for it. Front L+R mids/tweets pushed back in the far corners of the dash, pretty much on-axis and unobstructed. Center channel is also clear of obstructions with drivers mounted vertical. And the midbass are in sealed door pods. The install sets the car up for audio nivrana. However, with those windshield obstructions I could never drive a car like that as my daily. In some ways cars that still retain the factory appearance yet sound amazing can be just as impressive when you consider what it takes to pull it off.


Totally agree with this. It was getting a little overboard a while back with huge pods that looked like somebody bolted a set of bookshelf speakers on the dash. One of my favorite installs was Andy Jones' Altima done by Jeff Cook. You couldn't see any drivers anywhere but sounded amazing. Tweeters hidden behind the A pillar panels, 4" mids in the kick hidden behind the factor trim panel, subs in the deck. 

I always preferred the integrated look but am giving in to the trend a little with my current plan.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

To be honest, Gary's pillars are not as big in person as they look in pictures. My stock 2010 civic coupe had as big of a blind spot as Gary's does. I know he doesn't daily it anymore, but he did for long time as it is.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Sqnut, to my knowledge, Gary measures every change he makes using a 4 mic spatial averaging set up that randomly and automatically switches between the mics rapidly while playing pink noise. His mic stand also is built to be put in the exact same place every time so the measurements are reliable. He's even said that if you measure, remove and put the mics back in, and measure again, that the measurements should line up perfectly for them to be useful.

So yes, he makes changes by ear, but not without the help of measurements. This is what my talks with him have led me to understand.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

SQnut, where can I hear one of these cars YOU have tuned by ear so I can better appreciate your process?


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

:snacks:


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> To be honest, Gary's pillars are not as big in person as they look in pictures. My stock 2010 civic coupe had as big of a blind spot as Gary's does. I know he doesn't daily it anymore, but he did for long time as it is.


I wasn't necessarily referring to Gary's. They don't look that intrusive and the quality looks exceptional. I was mainly talking about the trend a couple years ago when guys had like 5's slung up on the dash. That's a little much IMO. I just always thought that the integration was almost as big a part of the install as how it sounded and the less you saw the better. Again, not hating because I'm doing something similar because I want the on axis response but I do like the elegance of a totally integrated and near invisible install and you don't see many of those these days.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> SQnut, where can I hear one of these cars YOU have tuned by ear so I can better appreciate your process?


Hear some of the top cars like Gary's and others that I've mentioned. Everyone who tweaks by ear essentially does the same thing. Listen to the sound and teak accordingly. Guys like Garry, KP, Eldridge and Aaron are all using the same process and way ahead of a hobbyist like me. Listen to those cars, my simple Dali Concept2 + Sub + Nad 2x100 is still ahead of my car.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MacLeod said:


> I wasn't necessarily referring to Gary's. They don't look that intrusive and the quality looks exceptional. I was mainly talking about the trend a couple years ago when guys had like 5's slung up on the dash. That's a little much IMO. I just always thought that the integration was almost as big a part of the install as how it sounded and the less you saw the better. Again, not hating because I'm doing something similar because I want the on axis response but I do like the elegance of a totally integrated and near invisible install and you don't see many of those these days.


I agree. I'm not dogging others' setups for having this style so much as saying I grew tired of that in my own car. I got to the point where I hated seeing large speakers sitting on my dash. I convinced myself it was needed but found that with the right speaker, I could have the same output and have the speakers out of my view (which also helped immensely in soundstage; getting rid of the side-window reflection issues I had fought for a few years).


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Hear some of the top cars like Gary's and others that I've mentioned. Everyone who tweaks by ear essentially does the same thing. Listen to the sound and teak accordingly. Guys like Garry, KP, Eldridge and Aaron are all using the same process and way ahead of a hobbyist like me. Listen to those cars, my simple Dali Concept2 + Sub + Nad 2x100 is still ahead of my car.


So you are telling Andy to listen to cars like Gary's when his thread was about listening to Gary's car?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

DDfusion said:


> So you are telling Andy to listen to cars like Gary's when his thread was about listening to Gary's car?



...and Gary and Andy work together....and Andy, Gary and Mark all worked at at Harman together...I'm pretty sure Andy is very familiar with both Andy and Mark's tuning process and vehicles and just about every iteration of their systems


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

ErinH said:


> I agree. I'm not dogging others' setups for having this style so much as saying I grew tired of that in my own car. I got to the point where I hated seeing large speakers sitting on my dash. I convinced myself it was needed but found that with the right speaker, I could have the same output and have the speakers out of my view (which also helped immensely in soundstage; getting rid of the side-window reflection issues I had fought for a few years).


I totally agree with you both. In the case of my car and build, locating the drivers for the best sound quality did not jive with what Mercedes had built.
Some cars and their OEM builds lend themselves better to proper speaker placement and "sightless" integration.

With enough spare time and money the Benz dash will be rebuilt to center the instrument cluster, yielding a symmetrical dash, the drivers will be sunk further into the apex of the windshield and dash. The dash will be reshaped to create a better "waveguide effect" with the windshield.

That is the long term plan anyway!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

garysummers said:


> I totally agree with you both. In the case of my car and build, locating the drivers for the best sound quality did not jive with what Mercedes had built.
> Some cars and their OEM builds lend themselves better to proper speaker placement and "sightless" integration.
> 
> With enough spare time and money the Benz dash will be rebuilt to center the instrument cluster, yielding a symmetrical dash, the drivers will be sunk further into the apex of the windshield and dash. The dash will be reshaped to create a better "waveguide effect" with the windshield.
> ...


that's what the Fiero was supposed to be for! lol


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

jtaudioacc said:


> that's what the Fiero was supposed to be for! lol


The best laid plans............... 

I had some fun with that car and basically broke even!


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## Dalton (Feb 6, 2016)

ErinH said:


> I agree. I'm not dogging others' setups for having this style so much as saying I grew tired of that in my own car.


Opinions vary.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Dalton said:


> Opinions vary.


Opinions about how I grew tired of large speakers on the dash in my car vary?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^he must be talking about your opinion changing since you changed your setup. Otherwise I have no idea what he meant.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

It is also a line, said by Dalton, who was the cooler at the Double Duece, in the movie Roadhouse.

What was the name of that Infinity loving, VBA inducing, lover of all things hectic in DIYMAland? I believe the second coming has, well, come. Ha!!!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

danssoslow said:


> It is also a line, said by Dalton, who was the cooler at the Double Duece, in the movie Roadhouse.
> 
> What was the name of that Infinity loving, VBA inducing, lover of all things hectic in DIYMAland? I believe the second coming has, well, come. Ha!!!




Of course his location should say "Double Douche".


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

ErinH said:


> Of course his location should say "Double Douche".


He even put "be nice" in his info! 

Whoever done this, good timing on some much needed comic relief.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

garysummers said:


> I totally agree with you both. In the case of my car and build, locating the drivers for the best sound quality did not jive with what Mercedes had built.
> Some cars and their OEM builds lend themselves better to proper speaker placement and "sightless" integration.
> 
> With enough spare time and money the Benz dash will be rebuilt to center the instrument cluster, yielding a symmetrical dash, the drivers will be sunk further into the apex of the windshield and dash. The dash will be reshaped to create a better "waveguide effect" with the windshield.
> ...


Did you ever compare the raw driver measurements to the in-car base measurements with the current set up? I know you stated that the design was based on what sounded best, iirc, and that getting a "waveguide effect" was not a design consideration. But I am wondering how much gain and/or directivity you "accidentally" achieved. When I built my pods using Whispers (it was a shameless partial rip off of your car based on Patrick's review), I had the full intention of pushing the drivers as far into the apex as possible and then blending the pods to integrate them into windshield and dash to achieve some gain. My measurements showed that it did work, but my pods are mostly an artistic stab in the dark. At some point I plan to go in for round 2, which will most likely involve reshaping the dash at the apex, and shaving the cluster surround. The hope is better/lower gain with more constant directivity. 

I think some of the newer cars with the small windows forward of the sail panel seem to lend themselves to better integration. I don't have one of those cars. One thing I am considering is the use of acrylic or lexan to form part of the wave guide. So at least you can see through it. However I can't convince myself that it will improve things from a psychological perspective, because it's still in your face. Because of that, the best approach might be to alter the dash to make the wave guide. Raise the dash to meet the windshield and hope that the natural contour of the windshield will get you what you need. 

What are the primary goals for the next design? Directivity, gain, or integration? What are you hoping to improve upon?


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## Dalton (Feb 6, 2016)

Niebur3 said:


> Otherwise I have no idea what he meant.


There's always barber college.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

garysummers said:


> I totally agree with you both. In the case of my car and build, locating the drivers for the best sound quality did not jive with what Mercedes had built.
> Some cars and their OEM builds lend themselves better to proper speaker placement and "sightless" integration.
> 
> With enough spare time and money the Benz dash will be rebuilt to center the instrument cluster, yielding a symmetrical dash, the drivers will be sunk further into the apex of the windshield and dash. The dash will be reshaped to create a better "waveguide effect" with the windshield.
> ...



This is one of my friends cars that is very nice. It has speakers sunk in just like that. Wayne Watkins focal car .
This car sounds absolutely amazing and it's a two seat car. It sounds exactly the same in both seats. . The center channel is two focal 5.25 subs there's no center steering , just a sub/midbass in center . Somehow he got his PLDs down enough so it images in both seats. and a13.5" Sub in dash as well . Take a look , the install is crazy sick! 

HubGarage.com - Watkins Concepts Garage


He moved his speedo to the middle. Dropped the dash line, full custom rebuild with no7s , focal dual monitors . its pretty nice 


Here's a peek


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

MacLeod said:


> Very cool thread. I really like the system layout. It's kinda like what I'm working on doing with mine on the front stage minus the center channel. I really like pillar locations for my drivers but have been worried about how they'll stack up against some of the guys in Extreme with rebuilt dashes and drivers mounted in the firewalls and such. Coming from Andy this is high praise indeed and kinda alleviates some of my fears of what I'm planning on. Thanks also for the system diagram Gary.


The thing that's really interesting about Gary's car is if you consider how he makes his living. Gary *literally* spends 1000+ hours a year listening to music and movies. I hate to be a wet blanket, but trying to get your car to the level of his car would be like hopping in a Formula One car and trying to beat Ayrton Senna.

He's a very humble person and I have a hunch that my crazy accolades probably make him a little uncomfortable, but his car is on a whole 'nother level.

Another cool thing about his car is that is surpasses a lot of the home systems out there. Back in the 90s we were trying to make car stereos that were nearly as good as home stereos. But with lots of DSP and total control over the environment, we're reaching a point where we can make cars sound *better* than the home, because we can optimize them for a single point is space. The same isn't practical at home, unless you go the Beolab 90 route.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Orion525iT said:


> Did you ever compare the raw driver measurements to the in-car base measurements with the current set up? I know you stated that the design was based on what sounded best, iirc, and that getting a "waveguide effect" was not a design consideration. But I am wondering how much gain and/or directivity you "accidentally" achieved. When I built my pods using Whispers (it was a shameless partial rip off of your car based on Patrick's review), I had the full intention of pushing the drivers as far into the apex as possible and then blending the pods to integrate them into windshield and dash to achieve some gain. My measurements showed that it did work, but my pods are mostly an artistic stab in the dark. At some point I plan to go in for round 2, which will most likely involve reshaping the dash at the apex, and shaving the cluster surround. The hope is better/lower gain with more constant directivity.
> 
> I think some of the newer cars with the small windows forward of the sail panel seem to lend themselves to better integration. I don't have one of those cars. One thing I am considering is the use of acrylic or lexan to form part of the wave guide. So at least you can see through it. However I can't convince myself that it will improve things from a psychological perspective, because it's still in your face. Because of that, the best approach might be to alter the dash to make the wave guide. Raise the dash to meet the windshield and hope that the natural contour of the windshield will get you what you need.
> 
> What are the primary goals for the next design? Directivity, gain, or integration? What are you hoping to improve upon?


I think this cardioid and supercardioid stuff is promising. Check out the measurements in my thread - I'm able to eliminate 95% of the sound off-axis.

When you get to that level, you basically take the room out of the equation, and then you don't have to stress out about the locations so much.

I've been shamelessly plugging them lately, but go listen to a Beolab 90, this is the future of loudspeakers. When the music comes on, the room virtually disappears. It's like listening to a set of headphones.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Gary *literally* spends 1000+ hours a year listening to music and movies. I hate to be a wet blanket, but trying to get your car to the level of his car would be like hopping in a Formula One car and trying to beat Ayrton Senna.


Well not to go all schoolyard but I've done this a time or two and in a full season of competition, will put in close to 1000 hours of tuning time. This wouldn't be my first time "hopping into an F1 car". I doubt I could match it considering his resources but let's not make it out like it's a magic stereo with rainbows and puppies coming out of the speakers. 

My point was simply that it's encouraging that you don't need a totally rebuilt dash, 10's cut into the floorboards and a $20,000+ install to achieve this level of performance. Eldridge's NASCAR is a work of art and all but it's nice when you see a more "basic" (mids in pillars, mid bass in doors, OEM dash) install achieving this high a level of performance. It means us mere mortals have a chance. :beerchug:


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Well not to go all schoolyard but I've done this a time or two and in a full season of competition, will put in close to 1000 hours of tuning time. This wouldn't be my first time "hopping into an F1 car". I doubt I could match it considering his resources but let's not make it out like it's a magic stereo with rainbows and puppies coming out of the speakers.
> 
> My point was simply that it's encouraging that you don't need a totally rebuilt dash, 10's cut into the floorboards and a $20,000+ install to achieve this level of performance. Eldridge's NASCAR is a work of art and all but it's nice when you see a more "basic" (mids in pillars, mid bass in doors, OEM dash) install achieving this high a level of performance. It means us mere mortals have a chance. :beerchug:


Great post, lmao, sometimes nuts need a little room to breathe, don't wanna suffocate them with all the hugging.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

claydo said:


> ......sometimes nuts need a little room to breathe, don't wanna suffocate them with all the hugging.


That is a sig worthy post. 

Mac is right clocking 1000 hrs a year is par for course if you want to dial in the 'best I can' tune for finals. So folks like the top guys who have been around for a bit, have probably all clocked 10-12,000 cumulative hours. At the end of the day it's an addiction and even if you manage to get on the wagon you're only one tweak away from having a full blown relapse .


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

I just read this whole thread and all I can say is WOW! If u don't want to post on diyma and its below you or trash, then dont post! I for one without diyma would have not knew where to begin when I started thus hobby about 5 yrs ago!! There is alot of good members and alot of good people on diyma, most of them have helped me more than they will ever know! I am just getting tired of diyma getting bashed, its the best car audio forum/site on the internet, PERIOD!!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

MacLeod said:


> Well not to go all schoolyard but I've done this a time or two and in a full season of competition, will put in close to 1000 hours of tuning time. This wouldn't be my first time "hopping into an F1 car". I doubt I could match it considering his resources but let's not make it out like it's a magic stereo with rainbows and puppies coming out of the speakers.
> 
> My point was simply that it's encouraging that you don't need a totally rebuilt dash, 10's cut into the floorboards and a $20,000+ install to achieve this level of performance. Eldridge's NASCAR is a work of art and all but it's nice when you see a more "basic" (mids in pillars, mid bass in doors, OEM dash) install achieving this high a level of performance. It means us mere mortals have a chance. :beerchug:


OK, the truth is that I'll probably have a chance to listen to Gary's car back-to-back with mine, and I'm trying to prepare myself for that moment, because it's going to be really depressing to spend hundreds of hours on my car and have his car smoke mine.

To keep myself sane, I keep telling myself that Gary has a golden ear and I should focus on the fabrication side of this hobby.

It's a bit different with Jon's car, because Jon is way WAY ahead of me when it comes to fabrication, and his bus is so unique, it's not even an apples-to-apples comparison.

I tried to hear Andy's car at CES but the traffic around the convention center was too dreadful to deal with, and I focused on the audio exhibits at The Venetian instead.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> OK, the truth is that I'll probably have a chance to listen to Gary's car back-to-back with mine, and I'm trying to prepare myself for that moment, because it's going to be really depressing to spend hundreds of hours on my car and have his car smoke mine.
> 
> To keep myself sane, I keep telling myself that Gary has a golden ear and I should focus on the fabrication side of this hobby.
> 
> ...


you guys have a lot of great SQ cars out in Cali. Maybe make it to a MECA show and demo some of those. It will give you a much better idea of what the more 'normal' type setups are capable of. I've heard some _amazing_ 2-way+sub systems. You might find yourself impressed by some of the more conventional type setups in this regard.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

ErinH said:


> you guys have a lot of great SQ cars out in Cali. Maybe make it to a MECA show and demo some of those. It will give you a much better idea of what the more 'normal' type setups are capable of. I've heard some _amazing_ 2-way+sub systems. You might find yourself impressed by some of the more conventional type setups in this regard.


he's done that.

loved the days when i was able to host the meets and so many cars showed up.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> he's done that.
> 
> loved the days when i was able to host the meets and so many cars showed up.


well, sounds like it's time to buy a car like Gary's and copy the install.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Yeah...but how would you overcomplicate the **** out of a copy?

Joking patrick....well, kinda.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> This is one of my friends cars that is very nice. It has speakers sunk in just like that. Wayne Watkins focal car .
> This car sounds absolutely amazing and it's a two seat car. It sounds exactly the same in both seats. . The center channel is two focal 5.25 subs there's no center steering , just a sub/midbass in center . Somehow he got his PLDs down enough so it images in both seats. and a13.5" Sub in dash as well . Take a look , the install is crazy sick!
> 
> HubGarage.com - Watkins Concepts Garage
> ...


wasnt he trying to sell it?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> wasnt he trying to sell it?


Yeah. IIRC the price was very modest. 

I worked with Wayne at out Littleton store. He's such a good dood. Super awesome guy and very humble.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> OK, the truth is that I'll probably have a chance to listen to Gary's car back-to-back with mine, and I'm trying to prepare myself for that moment, because it's going to be really depressing to spend hundreds of hours on my car and have his car smoke mine.
> 
> To keep myself sane, I keep telling myself that Gary has a golden ear and I should focus on the fabrication side of this hobby.


Im usually more petty than that when hearing cars that smoke mine and just convince myself they must be cheating somehow. 

:laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oabeieo said:


> Yeah. IIRC the price was very modest.
> 
> I worked with Wayne at out Littleton store. He's such a good dood. Super awesome guy and very humble.


ehh, to be honest i think his price was pretty high. mods dont hold value. id expect my system to add maybe 1000 dollars to its total value after its finished. still a sweet install though


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> ehh, to be honest i think his price was pretty high. mods dont hold value. id expect my system to add maybe 1000 dollars to its total value after its finished. still a sweet install though


He worked on that thing for two years every day. 

The detail that went into that car is unsurpassed by many. 

In actuality the car may not be worth that much, but for a guy like me that loves his car. If I had the $$$ I would snatch it up, drive it home and probably never drive it. Lol. I don't know , I just love that car.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I think this cardioid and supercardioid stuff is promising. Check out the measurements in my thread - I'm able to eliminate 95% of the sound off-axis.
> 
> When you get to that level, you basically take the room out of the equation, and then you don't have to stress out about the locations so much.


Yeah I know, but you have yet to prove that your solution is viable . I've expressed my concerns before.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Gary, do your dash drivers have an enclosure? Or does it dump into the subdash with more a IB kinda thing? 

If I may, how low are they crossed against the door speakers? 

Cheers,


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> Gary, do your dash drivers have an enclosure? Or does it dump into the subdash with more a IB kinda thing?
> 
> If I may, how low are they crossed against the door speakers?
> 
> Cheers,


The dome midranges do not require an airspace for them to function properly. That is one of the advantages of domes and a reason I chose to use them. It allowed me to push them back further. After much playing around with different crossover points, the best sounding is, the mids HP is 315hz @12 db/oct and the mid basses LP is [email protected]/oct. These settings yielded the best response to the target and the most phase correct coherent image. The actual measured crossover 3db down point is at about 360hz.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

garysummers said:


> The dome midranges do not require an airspace for them to function properly. That is one of the advantages of domes and a reason I chose to use them. It allowed me to push them back further. After much playing around with different crossover points, the best sounding is, the mids HP is 315hz @12 db/oct and the mid basses LP is [email protected]/oct. These settings yielded the best response to the target and the most phase correct coherent image. The actual measured crossover 3db down point is at about 360hz.


Oh I wouldn't have guessed that . That's significantly below resonance.....

Isn't funny how stuff sometimes ends up and works out. But as a person that likes dash builds, I agree that there is a need to get down to 400hz min from dash to door blend to stabilize the stage and keep it up on the dash . 

Super cool.


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

garysummers said:


> The dome midranges do not require an airspace for them to function properly. That is one of the advantages of domes and a reason I chose to use them. It allowed me to push them back further. After much playing around with different crossover points, the best sounding is, the mids HP is 315hz @12 db/oct and the mid basses LP is [email protected]/oct. These settings yielded the best response to the target and the most phase correct coherent image. The actual measured crossover 3db down point is at about 360hz.


That's pretty darn low for a dome mid... this is an example of how good the CDM 880 is.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

I should have added that a dome mid will not play as low as a conical speaker of the same size in a proper enclosure. So there is a trade off to using a dome mid.
The specific application will dictate the best choice.

I will also say that the choices of very good small midrange drivers that require a very small airspace are much more prevelant today than when I built my system.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

garysummers said:


> I should have added that a dome mid will not play as low as a conical speaker of the same size in a proper enclosure. So there is a trade off to using a dome mid.
> The specific application will dictate the best choice.


For the dispersion. Take it! And that's agreeable, in your situation with the rears and the processing there's a lot of other drivers filling in that 300-700hz range taking the load off the domes. I could imagine it sounds very good and on point.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

garysummers said:


> The dome midranges do not require an airspace for them to function properly.


Gary, or anyone for that matter, please explain WHY that is for us novices?


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

seafish said:


> Gary, or anyone for that matter, please explain WHY that is for us novices?


I honestly don't know! 
I would like to know as well.
Erin? Patrick? Andy?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Don't the domes have a back chamber? Isn't that there enclosure per say. 

I have a set of dyn 3.5" domes that have a back chamber. It's a hollowed out tube around the magnet. There's some rock wool between the dome and back chamber yet there's still a chamber?????
And only way to see it is to unbolt it from its mounting cup that acts like the case around the whole thing, 

I'm just sayin , but I don't know the answer either


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

seafish said:


> Gary, or anyone for that matter, please explain WHY that is for us novices?


Dome midranges are like a giant tweeter.









Here's my Dayton RS52s after I cut them in half









Someone at Parts Express cut his in half lengthwise










Here's what they look like intact


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I suggest reading this book:

Robot Check


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

At the end of the day it's music, you need to hear and feel it and experience what it does to you when you listen carefully. But I will buy the book tks.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I suggest this book because it's a pretty comprehensive explanation of how loudspeakers and rooms work together and why and how that understanding can help to correlate listener preference with objective qualification. 

It will clear up some considerable misunderstandings and erroneous conjecture in this thread.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It will clear up some considerable misunderstandings and erroneous conjecture in this thread.


Now I'm really curious....... time permitting, maybe a 2-300 word Andy post is in order. I like your explanations for the fact that they're easy to understand, tailored for technical dummies.


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

Andy, thanks for the link to that book.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Now I'm really curious....... time permitting, maybe a 2-300 word Andy post is in order. I like your explanations for the fact that they're easy to understand, tailored for technical dummies.


No, I'm not doing that anymore.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I will tell you what I learnt this morning. 
2 weeks into Chantex will make any setup suck. I'd probably fall asleep in the NASCAR.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I suggest this book because it's a pretty comprehensive explanation of how loudspeakers and rooms work together and why and how that understanding can help to correlate listener preference with objective qualification.
> 
> It will clear up some considerable misunderstandings and erroneous conjecture in this thread.


I will enthusiastically recommend this book as well, it taught me the majority of what is useful to know the speaker/room combination.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Jazzi said:


> I will enthusiastically recommend this book as well, it taught me the majority of what is useful to know the speaker/room combination.


The two approaches are different. One tries to understand and build up from every bit to try and get the whole. The other way is to experience the whole till it's native and then take a listen to the car and figure what's missing and correct for it. Some are more intuitive with the first, while some are more intuitive working from the whole downwards.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, I'm not doing that anymore.


I'm not claiming or trying to be one of those dogs that follows Andy around, but I will admit to copy-pasting Andy's prior advice sprinkled all throughout the pages of DIYMA in an Evernote for my own use. I read them and re-read them again and again all the time, and I have a big one just for MS-8 stuff, since I'm a big fan of the unit and I still use them in builds for folks. 

Andy, a lot of the people actually listening to you probably won't respond to some of the informative posts you make, but if they are like me they are improving their system piece by piece with it and it _is_ appreciated. IMHO the people that don't respond are the ones that need your help the most, and benefit the most from it, potentially.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, please don't hold back the knowledge on something if you're in the mood to share and have the time. It is appreciated and will continue to be. 


TL : DR version - thanks dude, don't leave or hold back what you want to say, people DO appreciate it.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Gary, I don't know if it was discussed before...did you use some kinda program or math when creating the wave guides around the front drivers, or was it one of those "let's try this" moments?


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

BigAl205 said:


> Gary, I don't know if it was discussed before...did you use some kinda program or math when creating the wave guides around the front drivers, or was it one of those "let's try this" moments?


The latter!


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

OK, all of the sidetrack stuff has been moved to High Resolution Audio's build thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6500-build-log-restoration-4.html#post3417337

EDIT: This thread is about Gary Summers car, or more specifically Andy Wehmeyer's opinion of it.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

jonah1810 said:


> I wish somebody near me was a sq competitors, the best car I've ever heard is my own, and that makes it hard to know what i should be aiming for during tuning


A moment of silence for us foreigners


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Kazuhiro said:


> A moment of silence for us foreigners


Amen .


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

imjustjason said:


> OK, all of the sidetrack stuff has been moved to High Resolution Audio's build thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6500-build-log-restoration-4.html#post3417337
> 
> EDIT: This thread is about Gary Summers car, or more specifically Andy Wehmeyer's opinion of it.


Thank you!


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

What did you do to your sub box to help mitigate rear wave Gary? Not sure if you want to spill the beans but thought I'd ask


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> What did you do to your sub box to help mitigate rear wave Gary? Not sure if you want to spill the beans but thought I'd ask


I remember that thread left us hanging! 

We Would still like to know. Ya know , copy Catting is the highest form of admiration


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

Thats right!! We were left hanging. .. lol. I forgot about that thread


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

hot9dog said:


> Thats right!! We were left hanging. .. lol. I forgot about that thread


All I can think of are those resins or poly type whatever materials that can dry and form as if one giant fiber strand. Perhaps they're "long" enough to help absorb and deflect in such a way that's constructive. Just a wild ass guess  I'm probably way off in left field


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

imjustjason said:


> OK, all of the sidetrack stuff has been moved to High Resolution Audio's build thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6500-build-log-restoration-4.html#post3417337
> 
> EDIT: This thread is about Gary Summers car, or more specifically Andy Wehmeyer's opinion of it.


Thank you administrator for moving the sidetrack posts to my Build log. My deepest apologies to Andy and Gary for "thread-jacking". And to those of you who were upset about it. 
I am very enthusiastic about my passion and just want to share it with others, that have like minded interests.


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