# Setting gains to the "Loudness" funtion of your head unit



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Was wondering why more people don't take advantage of the "Loudness" or "Loud" function of their head unit. As you can see from the pic below for a P99 (courtesy of ErinH or Doitor IIRC), all it does is boost the low and high end as you reduce the master volume. Which makes up for our reduced sensitivity to that frequency range as amplitude diminishes. 










If one of the points of a SQ system is to have a tonally balanced response. Why not try and have that through out the volume range. Which would also improve the sound while driving as well since road noise would further drown out those lacking frequencies. You wouldn't have to blast your ears out with mid range just so that the highs and lows can become audible. One of the reasons IMHO that people get listening fatigue.

If it were me, instead of setting gains to things like "3/4 head unit volume", "-5dB or -10dB tones", and "zero gain headroom/max un-clipped output".....I would go by ear and set gains to the MVC setting that doesn't sound too bloated or thin at any volume setting regardless of outside noise. IOW instead of fixating one one gain point, use the whole gain range and move it up or down the signal chain's clean limits till it all flows smoothly. 

This is the same thing that "Audyssey Dynamic EQ" tries to accomplish in the home, which allows you to have that balanced sound without having to raise your volume to the theater reference levels the movies where mix at. 

Dynamic EQ FAQ | Audyssey 

"Why can’t I hear my surround sound and bass when I turn my volume down?

The scientific reason? It's so you can sleep at night. If we could hear low frequencies at the same levels as the higher frequencies, our heart and other vital organs, which produce a lot of noise at low frequencies, would keep us awake. But evolution wasn’t aware that one day we'd want to watch movies the way they were created. When designers mix sound for movies they listen at very high levels. The decisions they make about the balance of frequencies and the level of surround sound is done for the loud volumes in movie theaters. When we listen at home the sound is a lot quieter, and so our balance is completely different. That's why movies sound like they're lacking bass and surround. Dynamic EQ is designed to fix that. It restores the proper balance by making adjustments for human perception at lower listening levels."


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Never used the loudness function. Even when I turn the volume down from say 90 db to 60 db, the sound stays dynamic. It's like turning the volume down on your 2ch, everything gets attenuated but it stays in balance.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks t3sn4f2 , hadn't seen this. I had read it just boosted high and low,to leave it off, and didn't bother with it. I will turn it on and readjust if necessary and see how it goes.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Interesting 
A function worth a try while driving, since I get fatigue and feel like I need to listen to near max volumes while driving. When just parked , no issues or need to turn it up higher.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

i set the loudness on my prs80 to ON and kept it there. 
to me it definatley sounds better, no doubt about it. 
bring down the 80 -100 hz sliders down a notch and enjoy !

nice thing about the pioneer loudness setting is that as the volume goes up
the loudness comes down smoothly, there is no audible " dip " . 

i say give it a try. 
pioneer got this right.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

I have tried both and actually prefer the Loudness setting. I keep hearing people say "turn it off, turn off all HU settings" but it sounds cleaner IMO. I have been tuning with my DSP with it on. Interesting to see it on a graph. Thanks


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I've mentioned several times in the past that the loudness feature can be very helpful, if used properly. As you've said, the key is getting the gain structure correct. You don't want to have the loudness affecting the tune when the volume is up too high. In order to take advantage of the loudness feature, and not screw up a great tune, it needs to be deactivated at the right volume level. I've used it successfully in the past, and it can really help create the perception of having the same FR throughout the volume range.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I own a p99 and I don't recall it being a "auto loud" 

IIRC I have to deactivate it manually, is that correct or does it indeed do auto . 
I would love to use it , can anyone post up what rate it senses and auto kicks in ? 

Thanks 
-Andy


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> I own a p99 and I don't recall it being a "auto loud"
> 
> IIRC I have to deactivate it manually, is that correct or does it indeed do auto .
> I would love to use it , can anyone post up what rate it senses and auto kicks in ?
> ...


It's not an auto setting. It has to be turned on or off like you mentioned. Once activated, like all others, it is a volume setting dependent curve.


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

t3sn4f2 said:


> It's not an auto setting. It has to be turned on or off like you mentioned. Once activated, like all others, it is a volume setting dependent curve.


I think there might be a little confusion here, as "volume setting dependent" IS a form of "automation". 

So it IS automatic, in a sense, IF IT DOES vary the aggressiveness of the boost with volume level.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Niick said:


> I think there might be a little confusion here, as "volume setting dependent" IS a form of "automation".
> 
> So it IS automatic, in a sense, IF IT DOES vary the aggressiveness of the boost with volume level.


Precisely , 

Once it's engaged will it automatically raise or lower the level of "loud" added to the mix, and what number on the volume control does it start to add or subtract and how much

That's the question I was very curious about


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

on the prs80 i seem to notice a difference at about 35 on the volume knob, then
another around 50. 
depends of course on the crest factor of the recording. 

pioneer calls their loud protocol " three mode " loudness.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

lurch said:


> on the prs80 i seem to notice a difference at about 35 on the volume knob, then
> another around 50.
> depends of course on the crest factor of the recording.
> 
> pioneer calls their loud protocol " three mode " loudness.


Yeah but on the 80prs loud has low, mid , high levels . I own both decks . 
So that dosent really explain it for that deck it makes sense but not the p99 it just has on/off


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

uuuuummm.....not sure i follow. 

my prs80 has ON or OFF for loud setting. nothing in between.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> Precisely ,
> 
> Once it's engaged will it automatically raise or lower the level of "loud" added to the mix, and what number on the volume control does it start to add or subtract and how much
> 
> That's the question I was very curious about


Sorry, I thought by auto you meant always on with no other option. 

The graph I referenced shows the curve for 3 volume settings. all show a gradual increase, so it looks like it begins to boost right from the max vol and exponentially increases down to the lower setting. *I dont recall seeing measurements more detailed than this for this unit.*

Edit: Scratch that, found it. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/74329-testing-pioneer-carrozzeria-deh-p01-freq-respose-eq-x-over.html


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

lurch said:


> uuuuummm.....not sure i follow.
> 
> my prs80 has ON or OFF for loud setting. nothing in between.


Dunno about the 80prs but heres what the three pioneer loudness modes do on one of their DD units. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/935320-post2.html


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

AWESOME
thanks


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Sorry, I thought by auto you meant always on with no other option.
> 
> The graph I referenced shows the curve for 3 volume settings. all show a gradual increase, so it looks like it begins to boost right from the max vol and exponentially increases down to the lower setting. *I dont recall seeing measurements more detailed than this for this unit.*
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you posted that!!!!!
You just saved me a whole lot of testing I was going to do this week


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

oabeieo,
does your prs80 really have the three loudness settings ?
i'm wondering if the firmware update includes this option. 
mine is definatley on or off.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

So it looks like it does in fact auto loud


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Music should be played loud.


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## Jepalan (Jun 27, 2013)

lurch said:


> oabeieo,
> does your prs80 really have the three loudness settings ?
> I'm wondering if the firmware update includes this option.
> mine is definitely on or off.


My 80PRS is less than 1 year old. Bought brand new. 
LOUDNESS is ON or OFF.
It also has Auto Sound Levelizer (ASL), which has 5 levels of sensitivity.

FWIW - from the 80PRS Operator's Manual:

"LOUDNESS compensates for deficiencies in the low-frequency and high-frequency ranges at low volume."

and...

"Noise in the car changes according to driving speed and road conditions... ASL monitors varying noise and automatically adjusts the volume level..."


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The older p880 had loudness control as lo/med/high.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

lurch said:


> oabeieo,
> does your prs80 really have the three loudness settings ?
> i'm wondering if the firmware update includes this option.
> mine is definatley on or off.


I believe it does, but I work with all types of pioneers all day so I could be wrong , it's in my wife's can so I'll look tonight


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

sqnut said:


> The older p880 had loudness control as lo/med/high.


I own the 880 also , I might be thinking that deck


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Any time I read the word gains, I think amp voltage gains.

Is this the case? Or are we taking output levels? I get confused when the first term is used to describe the second one.

If we were to set the amp V gains with the loudness on, it would be the same as setting them the normal way, there would be no benefit and pretty much we would be forced to listen to it with the loudness on all the time.

The only benefit would be extra protection from distortion or clipping if the volume dial was turned near max


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## Maylar (Dec 6, 2012)

In the old days of analog amplifiers the loudness contour was controlled by a special tap on the volume control. The boost diminished logarithmically up to 1/2 volume at which point it wasn't active any more. So, theoretically if we're setting gains at 70-80% volume level the loudness shouldn't come into the picture anyway. Of course that doesn't apply if the modern digital implementation is different.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Amp gains are set with defeated audio settings in my system and even when max HU volume gives me no audible distortion, I choose to set it 90% volume or less.

Just to have a bit of a gain turn on the voltage gain dial.

I'm not a fan of having to turn on the vol near max to hear more bass or having to turn the HU sub volume passed 10-11 out of 15.

The MX 1 setting ( loudness 1 level out of 3) provides that extra punch at volume 20-24 out 35 on my alpine HU, where without the mx1, I would need to have it near 30 and still not have the same result.

Just some thoughts about my recent experience. I think it's better to defeat, set and turn loudness, rather than set loudness, set gains, and then turn loudness back on again. Although I have not tried it but I figured, most risk is involved in the last option.


Can someone explain what is the benefit of setting amp gains at near max volume, even if it is clean voltage, when we will actually need more volume to hear more music if we do that? How does half of volt or 1volt play a roll in the final gains? Other than lower floor noise, something I never can detect as it is now


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Alrojoca said:


> Amp gains are set with defeated audio settings in my system and even when max HU volume gives me no audible distortion, I choose to set it 90% volume or less.
> 
> Just to have a bit of a gain turn on the voltage gain dial.
> 
> ...


Good feedback.

There's no advantage as long as the gain that you are then providing back down the line to get the power you want is not noisy to the point that it makes the noise floor audible. You're just moving signal amplification around between pre-amps.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Good feedback.
> 
> There's no advantage as long as the gain that you are then providing back down the line to get the power you want is not noisy to the point that it makes the noise floor audible. You're just moving signal amplification around between pre-amps.


That is good to know, thanks, I do not know what they big hype of figuring out what the HU max volume clipping point is and use that volume for the gains, rather than go a few points lower to have more headroom or output, playing very low volume tracks.


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> That is good to know, thanks, I do not know what they big hype of figuring out what the HU max volume clipping point is and use that volume for the gains, rather than go a few points lower to have more headroom or output, playing very low volume tracks.


I hear ya on the whole clipping point of a source unit thing. To me, it makes a whole hell of a lot more sense to use spectrum, instead of waveform, analysis to determine the maximum "clean" output level of a source unit. 

Spectral purity is almost impossible to determine by looking at a time domain waveform, unless it's REALLY bad, like visibly clipped........


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

I know on alpine units I always had best luck with the "mx" function on 2. 1 helped but 2 sounded better and 3 was just a bit too bloated. For reference my gains were set so that 27 was my max listening volume on most music. Quieter stuff I went as loud as 30. Normal listening volume in the car for me was like 18-22 With passengers, to have a conversation it was more like 9, IIRC.

Was it actually more correct this way, I'm not sure, but I figure why spend hours and hours figuring out what kind of EQ curve it's applying when I can start closer to the sound I want and work back from there? 

As long as you have it on when you set your gains it really shouldn't matter.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

With Alpines there might be a reason to consider it.


Even though the top models, the RCA voltage do not clip at near max volume, I have heard that once the volume is passed a high point they tend to have a limiter keeping them from clipping, that probably is a good reason not to set the gains at near max volume since they may be limiting power as a safety feature. 

The loudness may be the answer or reason a lot more punch is heard and felt being 1 or the 2 level.


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