# Hertz mille component set



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks to Technobug for donating this set!

My first impression is that these are beautiful, well built drivers. Nice venting under the spider with a mesh protective cover, and a pole vent in the rear. The mids are also pretty compact and light. Some noticeable features are the reverse roll surround and a super curvilinear cone with no dustcap. The cone is paper, with some kind of coating that gives it a smooth finish on top. It's pretty obvious that this driver was designed for a smooth, extended response.

The tweeters come with a solid aluminum removable chamber with 5 little felt pads. You can see the holes drilled in the top piece to allow venting to the rear chamber. The silk dome uses a heavy coating and a somewhat flatter dome profile which should yield good top end dispersion in my experience.


































Klippel performance of the midbass:


































Excellent results, especially the low inductance and inductance variance. This is probably the lowest inductance I've measured of any 7" driver and approaches the realm of tweeters. Bl curve doesn't have as flat a plateau as the best drivers out there, but symmetry and centering is perfect. There's also quite a bit of usable excursion.

A distortion comparison between the Peerless Exclusive 830883 and the Pioneer PRS. The drive level was 10v p-p for the Hertz driver taken in the nearfield with Praxis chirp stimulus, and adjusted to match the same spl with the others.

Hertz:








Pioneer:








Peerless:









All of the drivers performed very well, although there are some important distinctions. The breakup mode of the PRS mid obviously causes a sharp rise in distortion at 1 octave below. The Peerless mid has a rise in distortion between 500-1khz, and the Hertz mid appears to suffer from increasing distortion above 3khz. Keep in mind that these numbers aren't absolute given the limitations of the nearfield measurement with frequencies above 1khz, however I believe a general trend can be seen.

Also note the excellent top end extension of the Hertz mid, nearly out to 10khz.

Tweeter total harmonic distortion comparison taken at 1/4m adjusted to 96db 1m:

Hertz w/o pads inside:









Hertz w/ pads inside:









Again, we are looking at general trends and not so much actual numbers. Looking at the large dip in the response, I'd think you'd want to use the pads in the Hertz tweeter, although it doesn't seem to affect distortion performance. I notice the top end seems to roll off a bit earlier than I'd like as well. Excellent low end sensitivity too, rivaling that of the Scan-Speak d2904/6000.
Distortion performance seems to be good (at least on par with what I've seen so far in compact tweeters), with a rise at about 2khz which is where I'd cross them over. 

So in the end how did it sound? I like the mids very much. Open, well damped, and very smooth top extension out to 10khz. Clarity is up there with the best paper cones... Peerless exclusive, Scan-Revelator, Seas Nextel etc. albeit with a bit more limited dynamic capability. Bass output is good, but a bit weak on low end sensitivity. In a car it should be much better, but expect more of a snappy midbass than a full bodied one such as the PRS.

The tweeter sounds quite amazing. Very full bodied for a compact dome. Low coloration and good transparency. No sibilance or spittiness. My only gripe is that it doesn't have the air or shimmer that you'd hear from say a pair of LPG's or Hiquphons, much less a pair of ribbons. However, I think it's a bit better than the ScanSpeak d2904/6000 (going from memory on this one) while maintaining the same low distortion and excellent low end sensitivity. In other words it's polite, but not too dull or shut in.

Overall, I think it's a great sounding set that also measures well. Could you do better for the money? Probably, given what these cost and your priorities. But it's worth mentioning that at this moment I can't really think of anything that could do what these drivers do if I was looking for a more affordable replacement.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

wow awesome. those are about the sexiest mids to date


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

Great review, thanks for the data!!!
Having heard/reviewed the Hertz tweeter myself, I thought it was pretty darn good too. Awesome job, N!


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

awesome thanks for the review i always wondered about these.. id love to get a set of just the tweeters even, but overall the set sounds like my kind of set


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## amator (May 3, 2006)

The tweeters look remarkably similar to those found on the higher range ETON DISCOVERY component set.... it has tht series of vented holes in the rear chamber.


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## technobug (Mar 15, 2005)

SWEET! Now give `em back!  

I'll even trade ya for a JBL W10GTi......hehehe

Next on the list to be scrutinized.

I'll grab `em when I get back from Vegas.


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## zfactor (Oct 19, 2005)

techno hey man how much are those things??? lmk


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Aren't those the set that he scored for free recently?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

If it were me, I'd toss out those tweeters and use a pair of Tec LSI planars at 5khz for one badass setup


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

npdang said:


> If it were me, I'd toss out those tweeters and use a pair of Tec LSI planars at 5khz for one badass setup


dang whats the website for tec?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I have no idea... I don't even remember where I bought them from. Perfect match though for mids with such low inductance and good top end extension.


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

Since we distribute Tec on this side of the pond I might help out:

http://www.ebacoustic.it

Their website is in italian only, but the spec pdf-s are in english.

"Planare" is the word to look for.

Using SQ6 - SQ3 - Surface TW in one of the cars now. Sweet!


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## low (Jun 2, 2005)

where does npdang get those wonderful toys


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

So when do a set of these get tested...










?


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## technobug (Mar 15, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> So when do a set of these get tested...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Duhhhhh!.........

As soon as you get them in the mail!


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Nice to see Hertz becoming more noticeable on this side of the pond.


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## bcutshall (Apr 5, 2007)

Where can you get them?


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I see you're in Irving, so try Mobile Sound Systems, 1908 South Cooper Street, in Arlington. They are authorized dealers of Audison & Hertz.


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## bcutshall (Apr 5, 2007)

thanks dude, i will try them out...


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## technobug (Mar 15, 2005)

Just got these babies back from NPDang last night. Got the mids in my ride. Tweets soon to follow. I'll be posting up my thoughts on how these sound. Look for it.


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

So I was thinking about using the Mille tweeter for a two way, and called up Mobile Sound Systems to get pricing. If you are wondering the 2 way Milles run for 799...and the tweeter alone...599 a pair. Go Figure.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

The MLK 2 complete set is $2,000 MSRP.
THe MLK 165 complete set is $1,000 MSRP.

Which version did Mobile Sound quoted you at $799?


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

The MLK165. At $1000 I can see a $600 tweeter in todays Hi End car audio market.. But for 799 its not worth just buying the tweeters.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

$599 for just the tweeters? Hell, I'd just buy the complete set at that point.
I could have sworn that's the price for the MLK 2 tweeters, not MLK 165.


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

$599 was for the ML280. I don't know what set that goes too but that is the model I asked for.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

MLK 3 = ML280 tweeters + ML 500R mid + ML600 woofer
MLK 2 = ML280 tweeters + ML 1600 woofer

MLK 165 = ML28 tweeters + ML 165 woofer


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm sorry. No tweeter is worth THAT much. You're trying to tell me that the Hertz tweeter is 20 times BETTER than a SEAS ALUM or Textile Tweeter. They can keep them at that price. Theres pricipalities involved.


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

No we're not trying to tell you that. The mfg. priced it that way because of whatever reasons: R&D costs, market value, overhead/distribution/sales mark-ups, marketing, etc.

Is it better than the SEAS textile or alu entry level tweets. To my ears, definitely yes. Maybe not to someone else. And maybe not 20x better. One's man treasure might be another man's trash.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Agreed.

When do your pockets start dictating what your ears can hear? If you feel that you cannot tell a difference from what tweeter to another, then I can see the point in saving your money. However if you can tell tell the difference, then its fairly simple - you gotta pay to play. Not all are created equal I can appreciate that, but with different products there comes variations of costs. Hence the reason for inflated prices with products.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

still IMO no compact done tweet can be worth that, when you can get a tweeter like peerless HDS which will blow it away for only $120 or say Hiq OWs for the $200 range. IMO if your going to spend big bucks on tweets go for the Scans 6600, 7100, or ring rev. At that point if your spending that much money on tweeters you'll be in for fabrication needed to fit large size tweets.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

From an objective standpoint, the Seas is a lower distortion driver. For those looking for that certain sound however, it's difficult if not impossible to find a similar substitute for the Hertz mille.


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## kskywr (Oct 2, 2006)

So was the set in this review the MLK 2 or the MLK 165? That woofer is pretty interesting. I like the bandwidth. Probably a good choice for a kick panel mid mated with a tweeter in the A-pillar. 

Nguyen - Does the hertz play higher than the Rev 7?


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## BodegaBay (Dec 16, 2005)

Those are the ML 280 tweeters and ML 1600 woofers from the MLK 2 set.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

kskywr said:


> So was the set in this review the MLK 2 or the MLK 165? That woofer is pretty interesting. I like the bandwidth. Probably a good choice for a kick panel mid mated with a tweeter in the A-pillar.
> 
> Nguyen - Does the hertz play higher than the Rev 7?


I like the woofers better than the revs overall, and I do believe they play noticeably higher. They just don't have the brute force output below 80hz. Price aside, this is a really nice sounding set.


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## kskywr (Oct 2, 2006)

Did you find them to be closer to the detail and transparency of SEAS, or the warmth and laidback sound of the scans?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

I got a little carried away and I do understand a few things. MAnufacturers would rather you purchase the component set which is why seperate drivers are usually priced dissproportionately to the component set. And there are manufacturing costs that contribute to MSRP. 

I'm looking at it like this and I think Bdubs pointed the same thing out. There are SO MANY tweeters that can be purchased for ALOT less. Top notch tweeters that are proven performers. Unless they only want to appeal to a very narrow market segment how do they expect their products to get into enthusiasts hands? Well I guess it doesn't matter. We all have countless choices and one of those choices is to just not buy their product.


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## calponte (May 25, 2007)

I know this was an old thread but , what was the MLK 2..the newest revision of the MLK165 set?


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

calponte said:


> I know this was an old thread but , what was the MLK 2..the newest revision of the MLK165 set?


Tts an odd arrangement in that Hertz line. The MLk165 set doesnt use any of the drivers of the Actual Mille high end components (MLK2), yet its labeled as part of the 'Mille' line. Its more like a lower end/priced, entry level Mille offering.


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## calponte (May 25, 2007)

gee... i see now. Nice


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## "that boy asad" (Feb 15, 2008)

3.5max6spd said:


> Tts an odd arrangement in that Hertz line. The MLk165 set doesnt use any of the drivers of the Actual Mille high end components (MLK2), yet its labeled as part of the 'Mille' line. Its more like a lower end/priced, entry level Mille offering.


consider it higher than the Hi Energy HSK 165, but lower than the Mille MLK2...


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## Biowaste (Apr 25, 2008)

Beautiful drivers.

Thanks for the review! A local dealer here is about to pick up Hertz and I'm doing as much research as possible on them. Though, unfortunatly, the Mille's may be out of my budget.

-Bio


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## Et Cetera (Jul 28, 2006)

You can do better for the price IMHO


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Et Cetera said:


> You can do better for the price IMHO


Examples?


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## Et Cetera (Jul 28, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> Examples?


Well there are plenty of options; ones I have compared and found more to my taste: SEAS Lotus Reference, Dynaudio System 242, Rainbow Profi


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## MajorChipHazard (Feb 10, 2008)

Nice review there


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## khanhfat (Feb 4, 2008)

Hey , do u have a guidlines for me to understand the graphing lines? Anyway this is a really good driver . I own a lower end MLK165 and very satisfy with the sound quality it gives. One of a very strong mid bass out there that is hard to distort even at high volume and full rage crossover.


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## blackwolf (Feb 21, 2008)

khanhfat said:


> Hey , do u have a guidlines for me to understand the graphing lines? Anyway this is a really good driver . I own a lower end MLK165 and very satisfy with the sound quality it gives. One of a very strong mid bass out there that is hard to distort even at high volume and full rage crossover.


Look in the section directly above this. You'll find a "sticky" about "Read Me First" data. It'll be in there.


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## my89_928gt (Aug 22, 2006)

Love to here them. Anyone in DFW have them installed?


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

my89_928gt said:


> Love to here them. Anyone in DFW have them installed?


there is a dealer in arlington. he might have a demo car


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## taxi (Aug 20, 2008)

any review for the hertz ml 500r, ribbons MR-TW?

It will be great!

Been searching threads here and DIYMA, found http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2&highlight=ribbon.

Thanks


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## lyttleviet (Sep 11, 2008)

I wonder if you guys will do the mLK165s .


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## ninogui (May 13, 2008)

hi there guys

couldn´t let pass some comments on mlk-165, which i have.

the term lower end or low end is subjective. with a propper burn in they play beatifully, so great in fact they helped leading me to a first place in my class at the local emma competition. i certainly doubt the "higher" end ml1600 / ml280 would make a noticeable difference, i´ve heard them too and.. well.. easier to save the difference and latter on add the ml-380 mid tweeter driver to the set, if need be, for a 3 way front.

All people that have heard it where astonished with the sound they make.

band crossover for the mid range/mid bass is from 50Hz/24 slope to 3200Hz/18 slope and it fills is the bass quite well blending seemlessly with the trunk sub which is at 63Hz/18 slope (and phase inverted), and both with 0db attenuation! meaning pure as it is.
Tweeter picks up at 2500Hz (that´s what the factory passive crossover does, if i had it in, which i don´t) slope 24, and depending on the music/cd media quality i go from 0 to -3 db attenuation.


well that´s about it.. as u see i´m a big enforcer of the mlk´s.


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## Locke (May 29, 2007)

I love my ml280s tweeters, they are very smooth and clear but not laidback, somewhere in the middle of laidback and forward.


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## RoughedgesMR (Nov 30, 2008)

i am getting the mlk2s.

local shop quoted me as follows

mlk165 800/pair
mlk2s 1400/pair

i am just getting back in car audio and the mlk2s were one of the best sounding i have heard. Take that with a grain of salt because i have not heard other high end comps


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## It_Hertz (Mar 4, 2008)

RoughedgesMR said:


> i am getting the mlk2s.
> 
> local shop quoted me as follows
> 
> ...




They will still be one of the best sounding sets you will hear. Thy really are that good.


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## Blue Chip (Dec 29, 2008)

hi, 

any suggestions what should be the optimal enclosure size for ML1600's? I'm making fiberglass box for mine right now


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## Brad Eubank (Dec 24, 2008)

I did a Lexus GS400 a couple of months ago with the ML280/ML1600 drivers in a active setup, mids in heavily damped factory locations and tweeters in the pillars, and they are worth every dime, incredible sounding drivers. I have never heard a door monted mid work that well, image and stage was on the dash and the mid bass was incredible. Killer drivers and worth every penny


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Brad Eubanks of, I forget the name of the shop in Dickson, TN?? 

That's where I got my first set of Focals back in the late 90's (a set of Mistrals). I went there for a set of Image Dynamics, but was sold Focals. It was my first set of speakers that I couldn't buy from a big box store.

Now I wish I still had those Mistrals, which I could never get to sound right because I was a complete idiot and didn't understand everything else that went into installation. 

Listening to a couple of cars you had done formed a foundation for me, and is why I'm where I am today, and why car audio is still a passion above taking the easy road and doing home audio stuff.


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## kcdonahue (Sep 27, 2008)

Good to see your name here on the forum Brad,

I got my start at Stereo One also when I was with the 101st. I actually still have a bunch of crap laying around in the basement from way back... an old autotek that i think was from Brads car some ID stuff, Audio Arts and even a an old kenwood stealth face head (with the hidden button).

Brad, If you read this do you know where Jose Gonnell is these days?

Casey


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

kcdonahue said:


> Good to see your name here on the forum Brad,
> 
> I got my start at Stereo One also when I was with the 101st. I actually still have a bunch of crap laying around in the basement from way back... an old autotek that i think was from Brads car some ID stuff, Audio Arts and even a an old kenwood stealth face head (with the hidden button).
> 
> ...


Yep, was with the 101st as well.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

nakamichidenon 
Junior Member





Join Date: May 2008
Location: santa cruz,san jose
Posts: 15 




Re: Best Speaker OPINIONS 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see you bought the millies..... I heard these at sound innovations in haywayd about a year ago plus, powered by a sony deck they had and a 4.1 with a hertz sub... off... then on.. Anyhow listen to zebop track 11 on your refrence system then listen on the millies.......Give us some feed back. I honestly can say i was not impressed for the then 1k price tag...Let us know.. I choose that or diana ks blvd broken dreams piano break... track... Thanks in advance for your input, might have been that sony deck......


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## Brad Eubank (Dec 24, 2008)

Hey whattsup guys,long time no see.

Yeah Jose is still around Tennessee, he came by the store a couple of months ago for the first time in probably 2 years, he just bought a house in Murfreesboro I am pretty sure his number is listed. He is trying to stay away from car audio, his wife has him locked down, lol.

The Focal drivers are excellent speakers, always have been. We stopped carrying them because of some goofy warranty stuff several years ago. We did Diamond for several years and had really good luck with them on our types of installs. 

The Hertz drivers are just different, they do some things that nothing else does in car. I am awfully impressed with them.


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## audisoner 596 (Dec 15, 2008)

MLK 165 $400. New in box
MLK2, slightly used, $1000.
ML2500 sub, slightly used, $350. 

Taking apart my show car.


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## cbrunhaver (Jun 28, 2006)

I'm curious where Hertz has these made. I have seen some very similar looking cones used at a couple of chinese vendors.

http://www.unicorn-spk.com/UploadFiles/N2008-6-2471515969.jpg

It's a similar idea to what ATD is doing on their stuff, though they are using different materials.

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/atd/18w5408agtibm.pdf


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Not sure where they are made but I can tell you they sound amazing to my ear.


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## todj (Dec 11, 2008)

Damn, lots of hype for this set!


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## AdamTaylor (Sep 7, 2008)

Genxx said:


> Not sure where they are made but I can tell you they sound amazing to my ear.


they are made in italy

and yes they do... i love mine


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

The company is Italian does not have anything to do with they get manufactured necessarily.


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## audisoner 596 (Dec 15, 2008)

It_Hertz said:


> They will still be one of the best sounding sets you will hear. Thy really are that good.


Brand new MLK 165 from authorized dealer $650
Lightly used MLK 2 $1000

I also have Dynaudio.


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## AdvantageAudio (Feb 21, 2009)

Wow those are really great looking


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## Et Cetera (Jul 28, 2006)

They are made in China, like all the other Hertz products


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## AdvantageAudio (Feb 21, 2009)

I cant make a thread yet so thought i would ask in here, can anyone tell me how to turn off email notifications, i get a email everytime someones replies to a thread im in. be much appreciated for any help to turn it off 

thank you


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## audisoner 596 (Dec 15, 2008)

Et Cetera said:


> They are made in China, like all the other Hertz products


The box/manuals say Hertz manufactured by Electromedia Italy. And inside, the foam has Japanese descicants.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

No distortion plots? And also, are there any tests that measure distortion as the wattage input/SPL output increases? The reason is that I would like to know which driver has the lowest distortion at say from 94db to 108db output and at what frequencies is the distortion lowest?


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> No distortion plots? And also, are there any tests that measure distortion as the wattage input/SPL output increases? The reason is that I would like to know which driver has the lowest distortion at say from 94db to 108db output and at what frequencies is the distortion lowest?




1. the distortion plots are the bottom 5 pics in the first post by npdang

2. Why? Seriously, I would love to hear your reasoning for needing the above


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

IIRC, they are made in China in a factory that Hertz owns and managed by Italians with Chinese labor.


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## soundlevel (Feb 17, 2009)

gold star audio in Irvine has Hertz in stock, ready to go


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## vladi627 (Sep 22, 2008)

nice gear. I've always like how hertz stuff sound


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## ginster6 (Aug 19, 2009)

I listen to them.. they are good. I was considering them.

but now how do they compare to say scan-speak d3004/6020 and 18wu/4741t.

going to run them active. with audison bit one and lrx4.5.


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

very nice sounding equipment on there high end stuff.


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## nightryderz05 (Apr 25, 2009)

how do the mlk165 compare to the mlk2?


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## "that boy asad" (Feb 15, 2008)

nightryderz05 said:


> how do the mlk165 compare to the mlk2?


big price difference... lol


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## nightryderz05 (Apr 25, 2009)

"that boy asad" said:


> big price difference... lol


i know that lol. but what about sound wise? is it really worth the extra $$ to upgrade to them?


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## khanhfat (Feb 4, 2008)

well it's only worth it if you're running hi-end amp and HU .. otherwise the Mlk165 will sound great with "mid -end" amps and HU.


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I really like my Mille 165's. Very nice and can handle just about anything you can put on them.


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## nightryderz05 (Apr 25, 2009)

i currently have the MLK165 powered by an Arc SE4200 and my HU is a Kenwood DNX8120


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## bassfreak85 (Jul 26, 2009)

i musy say the curves look great on the mids. impressive amount of linear throw. im not fimilar how/where you plot RF vs output, but there is a bit of breakup right around where i normally would cross my mid.. good thing is the tweeter should do nicely crossed around that breakup point.
looks like a great set, props to hertz..


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## DynaudioNut (Jan 1, 2010)

The ribbon midrange driver is to die for!


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## synth808 (Feb 20, 2009)

good review...def on my list.


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## mrstangerbanger (Jul 12, 2010)

they should have put Focal in this instead of pioneer


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I can't believe how well these mids tested. I hope the B&Cs I sent in can compete with these. The high FS seems to be the only downside to this mid, which to me is no big deal since I wouldn't cross a 7" driver low anyhow. Now that I think about it my B&C have a similar FS, sensitivity and xmax claims. Then they are both Italian, neo etc, all too similar


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## redbaronace (Sep 27, 2011)

Are the new Mille 2 way sets (2011) not as good as the ones previously.

I know that the prices are less and some are saying that the quality has changed for the worse. Can anyone confirm.


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## Noobdelux (Oct 20, 2011)

interested in this as well..


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

They are definately not as good. The old Milles used to be the top of the line. WHen audison came out with the thesis, that became the king of the hill, and the hertz became middle line. Hence the price drop it in. And with personal experience, the old ones are MUCH better.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

But then about 2 months or so back Audison got out of offering speakers so Hertz becomes their top tier again. I still agree with what is said above about the former sets, but also wanted to put some things into perspective in regards to name branding ..


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## redbaronace (Sep 27, 2011)

6spdcoupe said:


> But then about 2 months or so back Audison got out of offering speakers so Hertz becomes their top tier again. I still agree with what is said above about the former sets, but also wanted to put some things into perspective in regards to name branding ..


What is your opinion of the new vs older sets sound quality and build wise? Have you tried both? So close to making the purchase but do not want regrets.

ALso looking at Dyn and Scan Speak for warm sounding components. Your thoughts?


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## redbaronace (Sep 27, 2011)

Have the new generation of Milles been through the Kippel for comparison?
Perhaps that would help Audison / Hertz to show that the quality is still there.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Who knows. Depends on who builds the speaker for Hertz and the amount of engineering they throw at it. Without proper testing it is nearly impossible to know if they are alike at all. Hertz has more than one oem which makes the Hertz name not really important imo.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

A lot of people get scared that the new speakers are being made in China but they do still have the same standards and technology going into the speakers. I would be confident to say that no one would be disappointed in these speakers, they are excellent at any price point and excellent speaker for the money.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Interesting choice of words "excellent at any price point and excellent speaker for the money." Would that not imply that this is the best speaker, and additionally that it is sold at a very attractive price? If it's not the former - excellent at any price point-then it can't be the best of the best. If it's not the latter-excellent for the money-then it cannot be a bargain.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

I never said it is the best of the best as that is subjective to the listener and when comparing to every speaker ever made that is a big comparison, It is a a great speaker for the money and I honestly do not think they would be disappointed with them. No reason to over analyze what I wrote and make it what it is not.. There is talk about the quality so point being it is a great buy and would be a great choice.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> Who knows. Depends on who builds the speaker for Hertz and the amount of engineering they throw at it. Without proper testing it is nearly impossible to know if they are alike at all. Hertz has more than one oem which makes the Hertz name not really important imo.


I would disagree, they are still stamping their name on it and allowing it to represent their name, it all comes down to quality assurance and what the direction of the company is going in, it typically illustrates what they want their reputation to be, I would say that Audison/Hertz has done a pretty good job with this. I do not feel however it is fair to knock any speaker without really trying it so I am not sure you can give a credible opinion since you admitted you have not heard them.
Peerless and vifa have production in China and even Scanspeak has made speakers in china and they make some of the finest speakers to be had..


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## ninogui (May 13, 2008)

I also have the mlk165 mounted on insonorized and dynamated doors on my civic vti

come sun come rain, running now for 5 years and really cant fault them on anything

a bit surprised on them lowering specs but well not the only one going that path

Also know that Alpine on affordable pure cd playing never came up with anything really better than the 9887


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Tnutt19 said:


> I would disagree, they are still stamping their name on it and allowing it to represent their name, it all comes down to quality assurance and what the direction of the company is going in, it typically illustrates what they want their reputation to be, I would say that Audison/Hertz has done a pretty good job with this. I do not feel however it is fair to knock any speaker without really trying it so I am not sure you can give a credible opinion since you admitted you have not heard them.
> Peerless and vifa have production in China and even Scanspeak has made speakers in china and they make some of the finest speakers to be had..


Why is my opinion not credible? Is it because I can draw information from a simple graph? Should I rely on a stamp instead?


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

simply because you have not heard them, never said you should rely on a stamp, i would suggest to anyone they listen to them, trust your ears and nothing more


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Tnutt19 said:


> simply because you have not heard them, never said you should rely on a stamp, i would suggest to anyone they listen to them, trust your ears and nothing more


Blind faith has never been my calling. It makes for lunatics and fanatics. Would you rather have Obama rule like a communist leader, listening to his inner voices or guided by a council of experts and be subject to the public opinion? If the ears do a good job then it should be verified with as many tools as possible. The tool that has the most accuracy should take precedence. With good enough tools the results should be robust to the variety of checks. Your ear is connected to a brain that is intrinsically a ball of emotions. It is by default a tool with large variance. To go back to using the ear as the only tool for the job is akin to pulling your bootstraps. 

If you trust your ears and nothing more why are you here? What brought you to this thread? Why do you even care what it tests like?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Tnutt19 said:


> A lot of people get scared that the new speakers are being made in China but they do still have the same standards and technology going into the speakers. I would be confident to say that no one would be disappointed in these speakers, they are excellent at any price point and excellent speaker for the money.


Looking at technology and specs, it seems like the old version is better. 
Technology that they don't use anymore is the S-DWR, butyl rubber, sinusoidal double wave surround for better efficiency and excursion linearity. 
















#7, #11 and #12 does not appear in the 3D modelling for the new version - could be that those are included in the design but doesn't show on paper... 

Regarding specs, the old version is more efficient (89.28dB vs 87.31dB @ 1w/1m) and has more Xmax. 
New version seems to play higher and has a lower inductance. 
Pdf Ml1600 Web Old - Speedy Share - upload your files here 
Hertz Mille TechSheet ML 1600 New - Speedy Share - upload your files here

Now, I have no idea which one is cheaper to manufacture but if I had to guess, I would say the new one (except maybe for the price of the Neodymium ring)

Kelvin 

PS: wondering if the old one is still Klippel optimized...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

subwoofery said:


> Looking at technology and specs, it seems like the old version is better.
> Technology that they don't use anymore is the S-DWR, butyl rubber, sinusoidal double wave surround for better efficiency and excursion linearity.
> 
> 
> ...


I remember John at AE speaking about a type of surround that eliminates bias in suspension stiffness. From his description sounds like the double wave implemented here. He also said it would not be cheap. There is a bit more venting from what I can tell in the older version as well. Good post, not that it matters if they both sound the same to some person's ear in some car he drives.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> I remember John at AE speaking about a type of surround that eliminates bias in suspension stiffness. From his description sounds like the double wave implemented here. He also said it would not be cheap. There is a bit more venting from what I can tell in the older version as well. Good post, not that it matters if they both sound the same to some person's ear in some car he drives.


lol :laugh:

Kelvin


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> Blind faith has never been my calling. It makes for lunatics and fanatics. Would you rather have Obama rule like a communist leader, listening to his inner voices or guided by a council of experts and be subject to the public opinion? If the ears do a good job then it should be verified with as many tools as possible. The tool that has the most accuracy should take precedence. With good enough tools the results should be robust to the variety of checks. Your ear is connected to a brain that is intrinsically a ball of emotions. It is by default a tool with large variance. To go back to using the ear as the only tool for the job is akin to pulling your bootstraps.
> 
> If you trust your ears and nothing more why are you here? What brought you to this thread? Why do you even care what it tests like?


ha oh wow bringing in politics, not even close to comparable but if you must, I would rather Obama not RULE at all, but nice word choice. This has obviously gone from a discussion to a waist of my time. I am here cause I love to read and learn not argue feel free to look for a fight else where, good luck to you.


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

6spdcoupe said:


> But then about 2 months or so back Audison got out of offering speakers so Hertz becomes their top tier again. I still agree with what is said above about the former sets, but also wanted to put some things into perspective in regards to name branding ..


This is incorrect. We are no longer producing the Thesis line of speakers and will continue to sell what we have in stock. We have a new line that is currently being worked on, there is no scheduled release date, we will wait until they are ready. We do still offer the Voce line under the Audison name and they provide a great value and a slightly different sound from our Hertz offerings.

As far as old vs new MLK2s, I recently replaced the originals with the new MLK2s in one of my vehicles and have to say that I am pleased. I prefer the new design of the tweeter, it is much cleaner looking, easier to install, and I don't believe that I last anything in the SQ department, in fact, it took almost no work on the BitOne to make me happier than I was prior. I can't say 100% that they are better or worse sonically. I feel the same about the mids, except that they are no easier to install, they are the same. The mids required no change in eq for me at all.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> But then about 2 months or so back Audison got out of offering speakers so Hertz becomes their top tier again. I still agree with what is said above about the former sets, but also wanted to put some things into perspective in regards to name branding ..


Really Don? So audison is not offering the Thesis line of speakers anymore?


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

We still have them and are still selling them, however, the Thesis line as we know it will no longer be produced.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

SouthSyde said:


> Really Don? So audison is not offering the Thesis line of speakers anymore?


The Thesis, or at least any neo version of them. I should have been clear when pounding the keyboard !


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> The Thesis, or at least any neo version of them. I should have been clear when pounding the keyboard !


Don, I am not understanding... So Audison is not making any more speakers, the Voce line or the Thesis Orchestra line? 

They were greatt sounding speakers, but I went the the esotar2 and never looked back however.


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

The Voce line is still going strong.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

SouthSyde said:


> Don, I am not understanding... So Audison is not making any more speakers, the Voce line or the Thesis Orchestra line?
> 
> They were greatt sounding speakers, but I went the the esotar2 and never looked back however.


Just the Thesis is gone.

Cannot blame you there at all my friend !


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> Just the Thesis is gone.
> 
> Cannot blame you there at all my friend !


Thank you for the clarification!! 

I know this is off topic, but i do not see many people competing with Dyn speakers. I see manyy Hybrid cars. I will actually be competiing with my Esotar2 set up this coming up season, maybe I can change some people's minds.


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## voodoosoul (Feb 7, 2010)

So based on this info, what 3'' or 4'' midrange would work well with this set to make it a nice 3way?


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

voodoosoul said:


> So based on this info, what 3'' or 4'' midrange would work well with this set to make it a nice 3way?


Based on what info? The info here is from the old (2008) model line that is replaced by a new, different model that hasn't been tested here for all I know.
That new line does have a (cone) mid available though for a 3 way setup.
The older 3 way setup used a ribbon mid.


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## voodoosoul (Feb 7, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> Based on what info? The info here is from the old (2008) model line that is replaced by a new, different model that hasn't been tested here for all I know.
> That new line does have a (cone) mid available though for a 3 way setup.
> The older 3 way setup used a ribbon mid.


I should have been more clearer, I have BNIB old set at the shop and would like to use it as a 3way so besides the ribbon that was part of the old 3way, is there any other 3'' or 4'' that would work well with the older model? Thanks for any info you can give.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

voodoosoul said:


> I should have been more clearer, I have BNIB old set at the shop and would like to use it as a 3way so besides the ribbon that was part of the old 3way, is there any other 3'' or 4'' that would work well with the older model? Thanks for any info you can give.



I will chirp in here. I am only running the midbass from that set now (ml165) and IMO it is the weak link now actually. My tweet I swapped out for a Scanspeak D3004 which I like about 150x more than the ml28 (might be personal preference tho). I did have that ML700 at first that people have been talking about but I honestly hated that thing to be truthful. I know some really rave about it and I would say if you are not putting anymore than 50 watts rms to it, then go for it. I wanted more output and found it kind of crapped out with more power. I am currently using the Scan 10f midrange and it is much nicer. First thing I noticed was male vocals were so much more real sounding. It too gets a little squaky at times too but nothing like the Hertz driver. I really would like to try out the Scan 12m as it looks to be able to handle a lot more juice.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

In that case it seems obvious to try the new Mille series ML700 mid from Hertz. I can't help but think Hertz was not improving with the last model changes though.
If it were up to me I wouldn't mind choosing a scan speak mid instead. (needs quite a bit of room)
Scanspeak Illuminator 12MU/8731T-00, 4" Midrange or if you have more room:
ScanSpeak Revelator 12M/4631G 4.5" Midrange

You could also try one of the Audison Thesis TH 3.0 voce as I think that's (Thesis line up) what was supposed to be the original Mille replacement according to some. They have been discontinued I believe.

I take it you're going to run them active?

Edit: I think the Illuminator mid listed is also 4.5" and has a 4 ohm and an 8 ohm version and is very deep. The revelator is less deep and more expensive...


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

james2266 said:


> I will chirp in here. I am only running the midbass from that set now (ml165) and IMO it is the weak link now actually. My tweet I swapped out for a Scanspeak D3004 which I like about 150x more than the ml28 (might be personal preference tho). I did have that ML700 at first that people have been talking about but I honestly hated that thing to be truthful. I know some really rave about it and I would say if you are not putting anymore than 50 watts rms to it, then go for it. I wanted more output and found it kind of crapped out with more power. I am currently using the Scan 10f midrange and it is much nicer. First thing I noticed was male vocals were so much more real sounding. It too gets a little squaky at times too but nothing like the Hertz driver. I really would like to try out the Scan 12m as it looks to be able to handle a lot more juice.


The ML165 is not the ML1600 thats in this thread. Not saying it isn't as good or anything, just not the same woofer. One is fitted with neo magnet and the other with normal magnets and TS parameters differ.

The ML28 is also not the (old) ML280. I had the space one tweeter (looks like a black version of the ML28) and swapped it out for the cheap Vifa XT25.


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## voodoosoul (Feb 7, 2010)

thanks for the inputs


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