# Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 Subwoofer – An Upgrade From The Morel Ultimo 12???



## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

I have long extolled the sonic virtues of the Morel Ultimo 12 subwoofer which I have used with great satisfaction in Da Benz for the past 2 and a half years. I did not have any intention of ever changing what has been for me the most musically accurate bass transducer I have ever used, or heard, in an automobile environment. But now that Da Benz is undergoing a cosmetic transformation, I decided to take advantage of this opportunity to satisfy my curiosity and find out if I could find a better sonic alternative to the Ultimo. Any alternative would have to work within the space constraints I have placed on myself for subwoofer implementation in my car, meaning I must still be able to utilize the vast majority of my trunk and retain my spare tire. As I did my research I honed in on the Dynaudio Esotar2 1200, seeing many favorable comments from other forum members and it is often compared to the Ultimo. When I examined Dynaudio’s published Thiele/Small parameters I was delighted to discover that the Esotar2 1200 was almost a carbon copy of the Ultimo in certain key areas which made it basically a drop in replacement for the Ultimo in my current aperiodic sealed enclosure. Here is the tale of the tape:

________________*Fs*______*Qts*_______*VAS*______*Mounting Depth*____*Cutout Diam*.

*Ultimo 12 
(2 Ohm Vers.)*:__ 22 Hz ____.36 _____105 liters____140.7 mm___________270 mm

*Esotar2 1200*:___18.7 Hz ___.34______162 liters____143 mm____________260 mm

That the Esotar2 1200 has a lower Fs and a larger VAS bodes well for the results I should obtain in the aperiodic sealed enclosure. But, the Esotar2 1200 is almost 2x the price of the Ultimo, which raises the question whether it’s 2x better. However, as we all know in this hobby, for many of us all that matters is realizing some incremental performance gain, cost be damned. So, I decided to drop some coin on the Esotar sub.

The Esotar2 1200 and the Ultimo both are products of advanced research and feature outstanding technology. I have not measured, and do not have the capability or expertise to measure, the technical properties of either subwoofer. However, based on the published specifications for both, I have reached certain conclusions. The Esotar2 1200 offers the following advantages (on paper) over my Ultimo 12: an easier impedance load (4 Ohms vs. 2 Ohms, therefore less current draw), and greater excursion (20.5 mm linear/ 58 mm max peak to peak, vs. 12.5 mm max linear excursion for the Ultimo). The Ultimo easily wins the voice coil diameter battle, sporting a massive 130 mm (5.1”) voice coil, compared to the 75 mm (2.95”) voice coil of the Esotar subwoofer. But, the massive voice coil of the Ultimo requires massive amounts of current to move it fully so you can maximize its performance, and thus the amplifier choices you have are more limited. The Ultimo is rated to handle much greater power than the Esotar2 1200 (1,000 Watts RMS/3,000 Watts transient vs. 400 Watts RMS/1,500 Watts transient for the Esotar). I expect that the Esotar sub will offer greater sensitivity. I say “expect” because much to my surprise there is no sensitivity measurement published in the Dynaudio materials. I have inquired about such a measurement and when I am provided it I will include that information in this review. But, given the greater excursion rating, lower power handling, and the smaller voice coil of the Esotar sub, I think it’s likely that it’s rated sensitivity will be will be 2-3 db greater than the Ultimo. Given the type of listening I do, I would gladly trade greater power handling for greater efficiency. Both subs are represented to be extremely low distortion designs, and I can vouch for this with the Ultimo based on my personal experience. The Esotar 2 1200 and the 4 Ohm version of the Ultimo 12 have almost identical voice coil inductance measurements of 1.1 mH and 1.0 mH, respectively, which are quite outstanding for bass transducers. The 2 Ohm version of the Ultimo boasts an even more impressive measurement of .30 mH. I don’t know whether those differences would be audible, but I am curious to find out. Another apparent advantage offered by the Esotar2 1200 is lower moving mass; 114 grams for the Esotar sub vs. 135 grams for the 2 Ohm version of the Ultimo. So, all the ingredients are there for even more sonic bliss than I had previously experienced with the Ultimo. I will see if these advantages truly translate into audible benefits upon listening.

*Initial Impressions (Visual)* – The Esotar2 1200 definitely makes a more compelling visual impression, as these photos show: 





























While I find the carbon fiber/paper cone of the Ultimo to be more visually striking than the MSP cone of the Esotar sub, the Esotar sub evokes masculinity. The gray, die-cast chassis looks as solid as a rock, and evokes a high-end contemporary look, capped off by a beautiful chromed cover on the underside of the vented magnet structure. Fit and finish are fabulous. I detected only a minor cosmetic paint blemish on one of the chassis ribs. Given its price, however, I think high quality gold-plated binding posts like those found on the Ultimo should have been included with the Esotar 2 1200. Instead, you get tabs to which clips can be attached or speaker leads soldered. When you lift the Esotar sub, you feel the substantial build quality of this subwoofer. It weighs in at a svelte 19.4 pounds, which is substantially less than most 12 inch subwoofers on the market. But, the Ultimo wins the diet war coming in at only 15 pounds. The weight difference is largely due to the Esotar’s use of a beefy ferrite magnet weighing 7 pounds, and a more rugged die-cast frame. The Esotar2 1200 deserves to be shown off, and I plan to do that by redesigning my enclosure with a plexiglass front and LED lighting. 

The Esotar2 1200 will be installed in Da Benz tomorrow, and after gains have been set, the system has been tuned, and an appropriate break-in period, I will offer my listening impressions.  Stay tuned.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Just pray that you are not let down...

The price for the Ultimo is already a lot....subwoofers are hard to nail down and sound good.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

So, do you have at least 50 hours on the sub yet? I have 2 Esotar1200’s running IB and they sound amazing. Never heard the Morel subs so I’d be interested in your comparison.

And don’t be afraid to juice them. I’m not sure how they got the 400 Watt RMS rating, but they could handle a hell of a lot more. Maybe it’s a typo? 

At first I was sporting only 1 Esotar1200 as a direct replacement for an IDMAX12. The MAX12 is rated at 1000w RMS and I was feeding it with an Alpine PDX1.1000. For the most part the MAX handled the power and sounded great, but there were a couple of bass heavy songs that made the MAX burp. The Esotar1200 handled the same amp @1000w RMS in the same type 1.22cf sealed enclosure with the same bass heavy songs without a hiccup. I’m not sure how much more the Esotar sub can handle but I would suggest feeding it more than 400w.

The Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 will not disappoint.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

I have heard both and while I really enjoyed the Ultimo, the ability to go IB in my install won me over. 

I really love my E2 1200 I hope that you do as well.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

FG79 said:


> Just pray that you are not let down...
> 
> . . . .


:laugh: No kidding. But, I certainly don't expect it to be a step backwards.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Se7en said:


> I have heard both and while I really enjoyed the Ultimo, the ability to go IB in my install won me over.
> 
> I really love my E2 1200 I hope that you do as well.


Thanks. I was surprised when I read in the Dynaudio literature that the Esotar sub could be used IB because conventional wisdom is that a Qts. of .6 or greater is necessary for such an application. The Esotar's published Qts. is half that. Dynaudio points to the compliant suspension as the reason why IB can be used successfully. I spoke with Emilios about it, and have heard from other users that they just love this sub in an IB configuration. So, it just goes to show you that sometimes conventional wisdom can be thrown out the window. Interestingly, the suspension compliance measurement for the Ultimo 12 is not much higher (.80 cms for the 2 Ohm version vs. .64 cms for the Esotar) and the Qts. measurements are almost identical as I pointed out above. The Esotar does have a much higher VAS, however. In any case, I contacted Morel Israel about the prospects of using the Ultimo 12 in an IB configuration and they had no clue. So, maybe some brave soul might want to try the Ultimo in an IB configuration and report back. Anyway, as far as the Esotar sub is concerned, I am intrigued by the prospects of IB use, but the AP set-up I will be using will afford greater control over the woofer, the air space in the trunk will have less effect on overall performance, power handling will be greater, and transient response will be better, which are all advantages for my listening preferences. I can't wait to give this sub a proper audition.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

interesting move Buzz... I suspect that you are getting close to the point of diminishing returns with respect to your subbass. What are you hoping to achieve by switching? You were pretty darn happy with the Ultimo, hope this change bodes well for you.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

SoundChaser said:


> So, do you have at least 50 hours on the sub yet? I have 2 Esotar1200’s running IB and they sound amazing. Never heard the Morel subs so I’d be interested in your comparison.
> 
> And don’t be afraid to juice them. I’m not sure how they got the 400 Watt RMS rating, but they could handle a hell of a lot more. Maybe it’s a typo?
> 
> ...


The install probably won't be completed for another couple of weeks due to schedules. But, I know the sub needs to be properly broken in before any conclusions can be drawn. 

Regarding the power handling, the 400 Watts RMS rating is on a continuous basis, and in the real world that is a lot power, especially for a reasonably efficient transducer that probably outputs about 88db with a 1 watt input.  It can handle transients of 1,000 watts. My Celestra amp will have no problems driving the Esotar, and it will supply more than sufficient current for those few cannon bursts and pipe organ notes I like to play every now and then.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Well Don, eager to read your review about your new system... 
I can understand, meeting up with you, where you're coming from and why the need to change your "almost perfect to you" substage  

Kelvin


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

I went from the ultimo a few years ago to the esotar. I have not looked back. I currently run them ib but started out in a sealed enclosure.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

jayhawkblk said:


> I went from the ultimo a few years ago to the esotar. I have not looked back. I currently run them ib but started out in a sealed enclosure.


I have yet to hear anyone express dissatisfaction with the Esotar sub, and the IB users seem especially happy. So, with each positive report my excitement grows. I should have the Esotar sub installed in the next couple of weeks and will report my thoughts after appropriate tuning and break in.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

Don, I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say. I love my Ultimo 12, as you know, but Dynaudio makes some pretty damn good products as well. I picked up some passive Dynaudio studio monitors off of ebay and the imaging is just amazing - I have a lot of respect for Dynaudio.

I seem to recall when I modeled the Esotar2 and the Ultimo 12 in WinISD, the Esotar2 appeared to prefer a larger enclosure (around 0.5 cu ft more sealed and around 1 cu ft more ported?).

I wish Dynaudio would come out with a smaller form factor tweeter version of the 110 - I'd go all Dyn. Anyway, eagerly awaiting your comments on the sub!

BTW, my friend Glenn (GLN305) just installed 2 Boston G512-44s in my car for me. I have had both subs for a while so both are broken in. Its a very nice setup because the SQ is there and I can put some bass heavy CDs in and the car starts shaking.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The G5s were always a nice (to me) subwoofer. We sold them for a while and I never understood why they didn't catch on better.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

I will wait anxiously to hear your thoughts Don. As a seller and supporter of both product lines for many years I will reserve my thoughts of your outcome til you share yours. Don't want to put thoughts in your head !

If you have any questions on the setup, you can call me back anytime my friend.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> interesting move Buzz... I suspect that you are getting close to the point of diminishing returns with respect to your subbass. What are you hoping to achieve by switching? You were pretty darn happy with the Ultimo, hope this change bodes well for you.


Hey Matt, I didn't see your post till now or I would have responded earlier. Sorry about that bud. Yes, I know I am at that point where whatever "improvement" I get in my subbass will not equal the incremental expenditure. But, that never stops the serious audio hobbyist, right? :laugh: I LOVED the Ultimo, and will continue to recommend it without equivocation to anyone seeking the utmost fidelity in subbass reproduction and has amplification sufficient to get the best out of the Ultimo. As I noted in my initial post above, curiosity and the desire to continue my audio education got the better of me. I am hoping that the Esotar sub does the following: reproduces bass with equal or better resolution, transparency and transient response than the Ultimo, but due to its greater efficiency and Xmax, delivers greater output and impact in the lower frequencies. I will know for sure within the next couple of weeks.



snaimpally said:


> Don, I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say. I love my Ultimo 12, as you know, but Dynaudio makes some pretty damn good products as well. I picked up some passive Dynaudio studio monitors off of ebay and the imaging is just amazing - I have a lot of respect for Dynaudio.
> 
> I seem to recall when I modeled the Esotar2 and the Ultimo 12 in WinISD, the Esotar2 appeared to prefer a larger enclosure (around 0.5 cu ft more sealed and around 1 cu ft more ported?).
> 
> ...


Shiv, I have use Dynaudio products in the past and I too have high regard for them. The Esotar sub is a real work of visual art to me, and I have expectations for its sonic capabilities. I have a strong suspicion that it will really like my AP setup due to its lower Fs and higher VAS compared to the Ultimo. 



6spdcoupe said:


> I will wait anxiously to hear your thoughts Don. As a seller and supporter of both product lines for many years I will reserve my thoughts of your outcome til you share yours. Don't want to put thoughts in your head !
> 
> If you have any questions on the setup, you can call me back anytime my friend.


Hey Don, so you are being politically correct? :laugh: I will be curious to learn your thoughts after I post mine. Also, I will hit you up by PM. I have been meaning to do so for a long time, and your post was a reminder. After all, we are namesakes who have used similar gear and are from the Tri-State area.


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> Hey Don, so you are being politically correct? :laugh: I will be curious to learn your thoughts after I post mine. Also, I will hit you up by PM. I have been meaning to do so for a long time, and your post was a reminder. After all, we are namesakes who have used similar gear and are from the Tri-State area.


LOL Don being PC I better write this down.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

I will be awaiting your review as I have been testing a E2 1200 in sealed box versus the ultimo 12.


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## s4k4zulu (Mar 2, 2010)

In for the results... Been dreaming bout dyns lately


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Verdict???


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Se7en said:


> Verdict???


I haven't installed the sub in my car as yet. Travel combined with physical ailments (a strained back and then a strained neck) that shut me down the past few weeks made it impossible to get the install completed. But, it will be done within the next couple of weeks and I will post my thoughts after a proper audition.


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## BlackCGT (Oct 6, 2011)

Its definitely going to be an Esotar sub for me!


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Bump....

The natives are growing restless...


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

:laugh: I know. Scheduling issues and now the holidays. Hang in there! It won't be much longer.


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## nigeDLS (Nov 5, 2011)

Any updates on this yet?


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

nigeDLS said:


> Any updates on this yet?


I will have the install done after the Christmas Holidays and will post my thoughts/impressions then. I am making some other changes that I need to complete before the sub goes in as I am getting Da Benz ready for the drive to Las Vegas for CES in early January.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Buzzman said:


> I am getting Da Benz ready for the drive to Las Vegas for CES in early January.


Oh excellent, you're gonna make it Don ? Shoot me an email or a call with details. We can absolutely get together !


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Oh excellent, you're gonna make it Don ? Shoot me an email or a call with details. We can absolutely get together !


Awesome, man. I'm definitely looking forward to hooking up with you. Email being sent separately. Happy Holidays!!


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

I have finally installed the Esotar 2 1200 in my system and have been able to listen to it for about 12 hours or so now. Much of that time was spent on the drive to and from Scottsdale to Las Vegas for CES. Before offering my thoughts on the sonic virtues of the Esotar sub, I must note that I wouldn’t have been able to have that experience were it not for the incredible support I received from David Hill of Signature Audio in Scottsdale and his installer Scott Owens. They moved mountains to get sound in my car so I could make it to CES. I had a scheduling snafu with my installer and had to scramble all over town to find someone else capable to complete my install and Signature Audio and Scott came to the rescue. Scott worked all day Monday and came into the shop on Tuesday at 5:00 a.m. to do the work necessary to get the system operating. Much props to Scott!! So, I left Signature Audio at 11:15, went back home to pack and do a quick tune, and hit the road to Las Vegas. It didn’t take much listening for me to have a sense of how I was going to answer the question I posed as the title to this thread. After about 12 hours of listening (and without conducting any technical electroacoustic testing), I can say, unequivocally, that from a subjective viewpoint the Esotar2 1200 is most definitely an upgrade (both sonically and aesthetically) over the Ultimo 12 which was my reference subwoofer till now. 

I inadvertently deleted my earlier photos of the Esotar in this thread, so here they are again. It’s really a thing of beauty. 




























The Esotar2 1200 is installed in the same aperiodic sealed enclosure I used for the Ultimo. I considered mounting it infinite baffle, but after much thought, and reflecting on the fact that I tried IB set-ups in Da Benz before settling on the AP enclosure, I decided to go with the application I have found most successful in my car. There have been some cosmetic changes to the enclosure as shown by the following photographs from my still in progress install:

OLD:










NEW:



















The other difference is that I am powering the Esotar sub with a Tru Technology B2200S, bridged to generate 600 watts with a 4 Ohm load, whereas the Ultimo was powered by a Celestra DA2K providing 1,300 watts into a 2 Ohm load. In both cases the subs were/are being powered by amps capable of providing the power and current delivery they need to perform at their best. 

I have listened to my usual tracks that really put a subwoofer to the test, and while the sub still has more breaking-in to do, and I still have much more tuning and tweaking to do, I have been able to reach some clear conclusions. The Esotar does everything that I loved about the Ultimo: reproducing bass notes with uncanny clarity, detail and precision, while also being extremely musical. The transient response is similarly outstanding as notes stop on a dime. You don’t hear the blurring (and resultant distortion) that I hear from so many subwoofers. But, the Esotar does all this with more visceral impact than the Ultimo, which sounded more “lean” in comparison. The Esotar sub reproduces bass notes with much more slam. There is more “body” and “weight” to the notes without them sounding colored, and what you hear is more like the real thing. The Esotar generates greater output in the lower frequencies which significantly enhances the listening experience. In short, the Esotar just has more meat and “balls” and really digs deeper into the sub-bass region. You really can feel the power of the orchestra more. It’s greater efficiency is quite obvious as I have had to really adjust my gains down to achieve the proper tonal balance. The greater efficiency of the Esotar, coupled with its lower Fs and greater excursion, clearly pay dividends. 

I was also quite impressed with the upper frequency response of the Esotar. Due to technical issues with my midbass set-up, I had to use a 2-way front stage set-up on the first day of my trip. My 4” Phass FD 0496 full-range speakers that I use as my mids were high passed at 125Hz and the Esotar was low passed at 100Hz. The integration between the Esotar and my midrange was fabulous. The Esotar sounded both neutral and natural in the crossover region and didn’t color the midrange. And, notwithstanding the low pass frequency setting, there was still a great sense of “up front” bass. 

The Esotar commands a much higher price than the Ultimo (almost 2X the price of the Ultimo), so one has to ask whether this increased cost offers a justifiable return on investment. Of course, what's justifiable is relative to your needs, desires and financial comfort. While the Esotar is not 2X better than the Ultimo 12, for me the improvements and benefits are substantial enough to say that if you can afford the Esotar you should buy it. The Esotar offers a more compelling listening experience, and looks better too. I have a new “reference” subwoofer.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Awesome, It was hard for me to tell the difference between the E1200 and Morel, though Morel did seem to like more power.

Would love to hear you car one day. 

I had a Audio Development 12 ( MM12 ) that I felt if you ever listened to one ( they have been discontinued  ) you would like even more.

I sold to a great guy in Texas that was using all Esotar2 speakers and 1 12" sub IB, he switched and said it blended very well with his front stage and it was an improvement over his E2 1200.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

DAT said:


> Awesome, It was hard for me to tell the difference between the E1200 and Morel, though Morel did seem to like more power.
> 
> Would love to hear you car one day.
> 
> ...


The Ultimo definitely needs more power than the Esotar to perform its best. If you ever make it out to AZ I would happily give you an audition. I am not familiar with the Audio Development line, though I have seen some blurbs on them. To best the Esotar sub they would have to be mighty good.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> If you ever make it out to AZ I would happily give you an audition.



Don,

Come back to L.A. where you belong!


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

michaelsil1 said:


> Don,
> 
> Come back to L.A. where you belong!


I hear you brother!  Hope all is well Michael.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I was hoping for a different outcome. This goes along with pretty much every review/comparison between these two subs.

I've played with the Eso2 for a while now, but never used the Morel.


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

Great review on the Esotar2 sub, I have a pair in IB and its truly the best sub ive ever had. SouthSyde sent me a text after hearing your car and was very impressed.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

rain27 said:


> I was hoping for a different outcome. This goes along with pretty much every review/comparison between these two subs.
> 
> I've played with the Eso2 for a while now, but never used the Morel.


Well, to paraphrase the Declaration of Independence, there are certain truths that are self-evident, thus a different outcome was just not likely. If you already are using the Esotar2, using the Ultimo 12 would only affirm that your original choice was the best choice. 



nepl29 said:


> Great review on the Esotar2 sub, I have a pair in IB and its truly the best sub ive ever had. SouthSyde sent me a text after hearing your car and was very impressed.


Thanks! I am eager to hear the Esotar2 in an IB set-up as its T/S parameters are not what you would generally find in a sub designed for use in such an application. 

Our friend SouthSyde is an excellent listener and I truly appreciate his kind words about my system.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

I'll be coming through Southern California in a few months, as part of a relocation to the Bay Area and would love to hear your car!

In exchange, you can hear the Audio Development, running IB in my car.

One bit of clarification that I think should be thrown out is that I was extremely happy with the E1200 running IB in my car. Everything that has been said about it on this forum also mirrors my experience with mine. Sadly, it did not survive a serious voltage spike that hit my car due to a failing battery. If the cost to replace was not so prohibitive, that is what would have been my go-to default replacement.

The opportunity came up to try out the AD in my car and I jumped on it. I was blown away by what heard. It has slightly different tonality than the Dyn, also it is a 2.8 ohm driver, I can't run as much power to it as I could the Dyn (also a bridged 2200). In any event, given my install, there's not as much output, but it blends with my front stage significantly better than the Dyn did.

In any event, I cannot, will not say one is better than the other. They're different. For my install I can't even tell the AD is even there. It's more like my windshield is exceptional at reproducing sub bass.

Also, +1 on Southsyde being a solid dude!


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Se7en said:


> I'll be coming through Southern California in a few months, as part of a relocation to the Bay Area and would love to hear your car!



Don lives in Scottsdale, Arizona.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Se7en said:


> I'll be coming through Southern California in a few months, as part of a relocation to the Bay Area and would love to hear your car!
> 
> In exchange, you can hear the Audio Development, running IB in my car.
> 
> ...


As Michael Sil noted, I now live in Scottsdale, AZ. But, if you are making the drive from Texas to CA, you will definitely be passing through Phoenix, and you are more than welcome to visit with me. I would love to show you some hospitality and we can spend some time listening to great music, have a nice meal, etc. I am definitely interested in hearing that AD sub. It definitely is a beautiful piece of workmanship. Just PM me with your contact info and we will stay in touch.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

I'll be going through there too!! 

Thanks for clarifying.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Se7en said:


> I'll be going through there too!!
> 
> Thanks for clarifying.


Awesome! Let's plan on it.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Se7en said:


> I'll be coming through Southern California in a few months, as part of a relocation to the Bay Area and would love to hear your car!
> 
> In exchange, you can hear the Audio Development, running IB in my car.
> 
> ...


I would love to hear your setup if you have the time either when passing through So Cal or during your journey North through central CA. I'll gladly buy you lunch/beer/free lodging or whatever you want.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> Awesome! Let's plan on it.


That sounds like a plan! I appreciate the offer and hospitality!

I'll let you know once plans firm up!

Thanks!




BuickGN said:


> I would love to hear your setup if you have the time either when passing through So Cal or during your journey North through central CA. I'll gladly buy you lunch/beer/free lodging or whatever you want.


Ditto! This is going to be a fun trip for me!


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

I have thrown just about every high end subwoofer in my trunk, including the Morel Ultimo. The Esotar is all that remains. I can't imagine a better sub bass system than two 1200's installed IB. It is a subwoofer that truly stands alone.

12 hours of listening is modest. Believe me, it continues to open up even more impressively 50 hours in. While "break-in" time doesn't reveal any significant changes in T/S parameters, and to some it is snake oil, I noticed a significant change in sound with this sub.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

MrDave said:


> I have thrown just about every high end subwoofer in my trunk, including the Morel Ultimo. The Esotar is all that remains. I can't imagine a better sub bass system than two 1200's installed IB. It is a subwoofer that truly stands alone.
> 
> 12 hours of listening is modest. Believe me, it continues to open up even more impressively 50 hours in. While "break-in" time doesn't reveal any significant changes in T/S parameters, and to some it is snake oil, I noticed a significant change in sound with this sub.


I agree that my listening time to date is modest. But, I have heard changes in the sonic signature of the sub with the more playing time it gets, and I was able to draw some very definitive conclusions nonetheless. Needless to say, I am looking forward to hearing this sub when it has reached its peak.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

The Esotar2 sub is a good speaker, but not the end all in my opinion. I would have no problem running a few others.

In other words, it didn't ruin my enthusiasm for other speakers the way it seemingly does for so many.

I have had plenty of time with the sub, both home and car versions.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

Buzzman said:


> I agree that my listening time to date is modest. But, I have heard changes in the sonic signature of the sub with the more playing time it gets, and I was able to draw some very definitive conclusions nonetheless. Needless to say, I am looking forward to hearing this sub when it has reached its peak.


Great. Here is wishing you much continued enjoyment!


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

Se7en said:


> I'll be going through there too!!
> 
> Thanks for clarifying.


You will be passing by me on that trip. I'm in palm springs area. Just off the 10.



rain27 said:


> The Esotar2 sub is a good speaker, but not the end all in my opinion. I would have no problem running a few others.
> 
> In other words, it didn't ruin my enthusiasm for other speakers the way it seemingly does for so many.
> 
> I have had plenty of time with the sub, both home and car versions.


No it may not be the end all. But the list of other subs to compete with it is really short, especially those that can be run ib. I kinda started the 1200 revolution so I have a lot of time with them as well as the ultimo and a list of others. The only other sub I want right now is the Micro Precision Z Studio.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

jayhawkblk said:


> You will be passing by me on that trip. I'm in palm springs area. Just off the 10.
> 
> 
> 
> No it may not be the end all. But the list of other subs to compete with it is really short, especially those that can be run ib. I kinda started the 1200 revolution so I have a lot of time with them as well as the ultimo and a list of others. The only other sub I want right now is the Micro Precision Z Studio.


Yeah, I'll second that desire. I have some Micro Precision Z-Series speakers here that were never installed.


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

How well does the Dyn do on sub 20hz?


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

rc10mike said:


> How well does the Dyn do on sub 20hz?


What's at 20 Hz?


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

Sorry, I mentioned to ask how well does the sub play the super deep bass as in 20hz and down?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> What's at 20 Hz?


Pipe Organ!


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

michaelsil1 said:


> Pipe Organ!


Yes sir. I've learned to love organ music now. I have a couple songs that make the roof ripple and you sense the energy but it's not really audible.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> Yes sir. I've learned to love organ music now. I have a couple songs that make the roof ripple and you sense the energy but it's not really audible.


The really low notes you feel. John W. played some pipe organ for me and the Magic Bus was vibrating like crazy. 



He told me his Esotars played down to 16Hz.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

michaelsil1 said:


> Pipe Organ!


My response to rc10mike was rhetorical. Of course I know a pipe organ is able to produce notes below 20 Hz. My response was intended to get rc10mike to explain why he was interested in the sub's response in that frequency range. Most people do not listen to music that presents such a low frequency in the first place, and if they do, they know that in that frequency range it's air pressure that you feel (like a billowing wind), rather than distinct notes that you hear. I have a recording of Saint-Saens Organ Symphony by the Boston Civic Symphony that will really let you feel that low energy on a great sub-bass system. Now, to respond to RC 10Mike's question, playing that recording in my car the sensation was sensational with the Esotar2 1200. Yeah, it's a cool experience, but for me the greatness of the Esotar sub is based not on what it does below 20Hz, but on what it does above it, where most real world music resides and where it's much easier to distinguish music from distortion.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I wish I knew how low the cannon blasts go in the 1812 Overture but the 3 E1200s in Jon's Magic Bus did an awesome job with great impact. Bass in the "normal" sub range was of course excellent. I dont want to give up any displacement over what I have now and I've considered 3 of these subs but I have to draw the line at some point.... or maybe I'll buy them one at a time.


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

Buzzman said:


> My response to rc10mike was rhetorical. Of course I know a pipe organ is able to produce notes below 20 Hz. My response was intended to get rc10mike to explain why he was interested in the sub's response in that frequency range. Most people do not listen to music that presents such a low frequency in the first place, and if they do, they know that in that frequency range it's air pressure that you feel (like a billowing wind), rather than distinct notes that you hear. I have a recording of Saint-Saens Organ Symphony by the Boston Civic Symphony that will really let you feel that low energy on a great sub-bass system. Now, to respond to RC 10Mike's question, playing that recording in my car the sensation was sensational with the Esotar2 1200. Yeah, it's a cool experience, but for me the greatness of the Esotar sub is based not on what it does below 20Hz, but on what it does above it, where most real world music resides and where it's much easier to distinguish music from distortion.


I asked this because every once in a while I get the urge to play some music with subsonics. Granted, its not a regular thing, but I want a sub able to do this. I realize 99% of bass is above 20hz, but theres always that 1%.

(waits for the common response of "any sub can play below 20 blah blah you need cone area blah blah this isnt an spl sub blah blah")


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

any sub can play below 20hz, blah blah, you need cone area blah blah this isn't an spl sub


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## Motorsport3 (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi Mr. Buzzman!! how are you sir?? How do you like your sub in AP box?? I recently got this sub instead of the ultimo and wondering if I should go IB, AP, or sealed. 
Have you considered going IB with your sub? 
I can't wait to hear Da Benz at the meet next month!!


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Motorsport3 said:


> Hi Mr. Buzzman!! how are you sir?? How do you like your sub in AP box?? I recently got this sub instead of the ultimo and wondering if I should go IB, AP, or sealed.
> Have you considered going IB with your sub?
> I can't wait to hear Da Benz at the meet next month!!


Yes, I am looking forward to the meet and meeting you. Regarding the Esotar sub, it's terrific in an AP application. I know a lot of people are using them IB, but as I noted in an earlier post, I have my reservations. Personally, if space and getting bass into the cabin were not an issue (the gas tank in my Benz is right behind the rear seat), I would use it in a sealed enclosure. I think something on the order of 1.8 cu. ft. should do the trick. If space is an issue and you can seal off your trunk from the main cabin, then go AP. That's my 2 cents.


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## Motorsport3 (Jan 14, 2012)

Thank you sir! I think I'll build a baffle over the rear deck and put a sealed box under it, so I can try both settings and fire the sub right into the cabin.
Hope I can get my car done before the meet : )


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## ariben (Feb 24, 2011)

Amazing! I'm actually considering doing the same with my Esotar. I have it IB right now in my M5. I don't feel the IB setup is giving me the punch I desire from this sub, and I'm also hoping for a small SPL increase if I go with AP from IB. Would you mind giving me the specs on the box you are using...no point in reinventing the wheel  Thanks!!!


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

ariben said:


> Amazing! I'm actually considering doing the same with my Esotar. I have it IB right now in my M5. I don't feel the IB setup is giving me the punch I desire from this sub, and I'm also hoping for a small SPL increase if I go with AP from IB. Would you mind giving me the specs on the box you are using...no point in reinventing the wheel  Thanks!!!


You won't get an SPL increase going from IB to AP. Rather, you will lose some output due to the inefficiency of an AP application compared to an IB application. The previous poster is going to a sealed box, not AP.


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## alcoholicadema (Aug 7, 2012)

MrDave said:


> Yeah, I'll second that desire. I have some Micro Precision Z-Series speakers here that were never installed.


Spending that kinda money on speakers and not ever using them


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

Still sitting, too. Hopefully soon. Sometimes life interferes with hobbies.


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## crispy98007 (Jun 19, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I'm brand new to this forum, had to join and add to this thread because of my passion for Dynaudio. Been in (ultra) high-end home audio for decades, but also have a passion for car audio. Until recently I had a Mits EVO X, in it were 2 Esotar 1200s, 2 650s and Esotec MD102 tweeters (simply again because the 110s wouldn't fit). Sold that and going back to a 911...you know, that company from Stuttgart...

Planning to go back to a custom fiberglass enclosure (by Z-box...hope they're still around, it was incredible in my old 911) that installs under the back seat so it looks like there's nothing there (including no foot space for passengers, but you can't use the back seat of a 911 anyway...), the 2 650s on the back deck, and new 430 mids and 110 tweeters in the doors (the 110s WILL fit). Driven by 2 Tru-Technology B-4100S stage IV amps with Burr Brown 627 op-amps, and a Clarion DRZ-9255 front end. The whole thing will be fully active 4-way, as the 9255 has a 4-way crossover built in. [email protected] is working on a new line driver to replace my older SS-6i. His amps are really, really good, and hats off to Mike and Emilios @ Dynaudio for recommending his product when I got back into 12V a few years ago. 

All the gear is here and ready to go. Before I restart this project, and as it progresses, any suggestions, comments, advice or do's and dont's, from any of you far more experienced folks in 12V than I, would be deeply appreciated. 

I think it's a pretty good rig, no?

Cheers and thanks to all,

Chris


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

crispy98007 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm brand new to this forum, had to join and add to this thread because of my passion for Dynaudio. Been in (ultra) high-end home audio for decades, but also have a passion for car audio. Until recently I had a Mits EVO X, in it were 2 Esotar 1200s, 2 650s and Esotec MD102 tweeters (simply again because the 110s wouldn't fit). Sold that and going back to a 911...you know, that company from Stuttgart...
> 
> ...


My favorite speakers in one of my favorite cars. I think its a great combo. The Dyns love power, its not that they're inefficient, they just handle lots of power and sound so good and dynamic. 

I've owned the whole Esotar line except for the 1200 and currently have the 110 and 430 but with the Esotec 182 for some incredible midbass. I don't know if you would have the room for them in the 911 though. I figured I would throw it out there since you mentioned a possible 3 way setup. The 650s have incredible midbass but the 182s have more than twice the displacement. It just depends on your goals. 

I'm sure you've heard the 110 tweeter before but if not, it's a huge improvement over the 102. I still haven't found a stealth location for them which is a problem in my daily driver. 

The other thing is the 650 and 110 sound very nice together. Adding the 430 might get you a slight improvement in sound quality and output but its going to be harder to tune. I'm sure the 430s worthiness would be car and install dependent. Looking forward to your build.


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## crispy98007 (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey Buick,

Thanks for the kind words. Yes really looking forward to it. A 911 from the 2010ish era is also a completely different animal than the 1987 one I had 20+ years ago. I'd love to buy a new 2014 but...

The 110s are indeed a whole different breed of driver than the MD102. One of the biggest differences (amongst many) is the smoothness of the off-axis response, which is absolutely vital in cars, where you don't have much control of the direction the driver is facing...you put it where it fits and looks decent. The 430s should be a big addition to the clarity of the midrange since those and the 110s will go in the door, and the 650s will go in the back deck behind the rear seats. Since they'll face towards the sky, the vocal clarity wouldn't be nearly as good since it would bounce off the rear window. Adding the mids up front will let me cross over to the back deck at a much lower frequency, making a huge improvement in clarity and flatter response in the vocal range. Yes it will be a painstaking setup, and there will be a lot of tweaking, but the Clarion 9255 head unit offers everything you could ask for...all independent crossover points, time delay for all channels to make all notes arrive at the listening position simultaneously, and 1/3 octave EQing as a last resort. I shouldn't need any of that though.

The nicest thing about the 1200s is their extremely low resonance frequency. Properly tuned in one of those fiberglass cabinets I mentioned before (I had 2 10" woofers back in the day) you'll get UNBELIEVABLY low, low frequencies and super flat response into the netherworld out of them. Opening the sunroof in the 911 essentially made the car the box and the sunroof the port, and you're sitting inside the cabinet! I used to get super clean sub-30Hz bass notes that you could hear blocks away. It was the complete opposite of most decked out cars, who's maximum output was in the 60-90Hz range, making them sound like boom boxes (along with the rattling license plate lol). My friends knew I was coming 5 minutes before I got there! This will be like that but on a whole new level. Then there's the Audio Control Epicenter story...

By the way I got a new pair of Dyn Xeo 3 speakers today, they are the coolest thing since sliced bread. Wireless and self bi-amped, they are a whole new breed of speaker that's truly amazing. I'll use it with an Ipod, the Pure I20 dock with digital output to the Xeo 3's transmitter, which also has a USB input for your laptop...check them out on Dynaudio's website. They're better than anything I've heard anywhere near that price point and very unique...they sure don't SOUND wireless!

Dynaudio rocks!


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