# Old School VS. New School



## for2nato (Apr 3, 2012)

I saw this and just thought I would share. This is the difference between a 20 year old amp and the latest model.

First the 2012 PPI Sedona 580.2








Now the 1993 PPI Sedona APA500ix









This is really just sad. I dont think that fets have become so efficient that 8 of them can replace the 40 that were used in the original model. Just sayin'


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## so cal eddie (Oct 1, 2008)

Old school FTW!


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## dales (Dec 16, 2010)

so cal eddie said:


> Old school FTW!


damn right


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## jcorkin (Jan 26, 2012)

i do believe old school build quality is hard to come by now days, and if you do come by it it comes at a price! dont get me wrong the new amps can produce more power with less power input, efficiency, but they just dont seem to hold up like the old ones and ill take something a bit power hungry if it means reliability in the end. plus most were made in the good ole usa, not by some 5yr old in a factory half way around the world.


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## for2nato (Apr 3, 2012)

I seriously doubt that this new amp comes even close to actuall power of the old one. Efficiency is one thing, but this is like the "light" version of a small amp. I mean it looks like the inside of a jensen amp, and a small one at that. 

And your right. American made quality still exist's. But you will pay dearly for it. Price the new linear stuff and this becomes real clear.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

for2nato said:


> First the 2012 PPI Sedona 580.2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whats even sadder is how the new PPI Sedona 580.2 has single sided printed board with a bunch of jumper wires on the other side. Double printed boards are more reliable since they have solder joints on both sides (holds the parts better, from all the viabrations).

Now if the smaller T0-220 transistors are rated at 50watts each, that comes out to 40 x 50 = 2000watt capability. If the new transistors (T03-P or T-218 package) are about 225watts each, that comes out to 8 x 225 = 1800watts capability. So they might be pretty close, I wouldn't be concerned besides the fact they may be a cheap low-end components ( I would have to see the data sheet for it), am more concerned about the board being.....how do I say it........VERY OLD SCHOOL (pre 70's, lol) not a good thing for me.


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## Sound-In-Waves (Jan 22, 2012)

TrickyRicky said:


> Whats even sadder is how the new PPI Sedona 580.2 has single sided printed board with a bunch of jumper wires on the other side. Double printed boards are more reliable since they have solder joints on both sides (holds the parts better, from all the viabrations).


I wouldn't want a double sided printed board for an amp though, double sided boards tend to act as there own capacitor.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Sound-In-Waves said:


> I wouldn't want a double sided printed board for an amp though, double sided boards tend to act as there own capacitor.


If that was the case all amplifiers would use single sided and be quite large. What about the boards that have multiple layers of traces? Just curious.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

for2nato said:


> I saw this and just thought I would share. This is the difference between a 20 year old amp and the latest model.
> 
> First the 2012 PPI Sedona 580.2
> 
> ...


looking at 2 pictures where we can't tell what components are used, what the actual output is or considering price from people that have no background to determine anything conclusive from the pictures.... Even though all that

color me blind and call me Bessy but old school clearly for the obvious win.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Without having one in my hands to remove the clamps, or without the schematics its impossible to say which transistor it actually uses. All I can say is by looking at them their the T0-220 package, while the newer model (2012) has T0-3P or T0218 transistors (again without the schematics or amplifier being present I cannot tell which transistor it uses).

Sorry if I mislead anyone, its just common sense.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Sound-In-Waves said:


> I wouldn't want a double sided printed board for an amp though, double sided boards tend to act as there own capacitor.


they work in computers, actually multi LAYER, at frequencies much higher (more likely to be affected by capacitance)


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## Sound-In-Waves (Jan 22, 2012)

chad said:


> they work in computers, actually multi LAYER, at frequencies much higher (more likely to be affected by capacitance)


Yes they do and its a consideration that MUST be taken into account when designing systems. Its mainly a problem at higher frequencies, but I've seen it occur significantly even at 5kHz. There are ways to over come it, some as simple as by adjusting the impedance of the circuit. A basic capacitor is just two conducting surfaces(the traces) seperated by a dielectric(the board). People make home made caps all the time, children even do it for science fairs. However the best way to avoid introducing unwanted capacitance is to avoid it all together, thus imo a well designed amp would be printed on a single sided PCB.

Parasitic capacitance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Sound-In-Waves said:


> There are ways to over come it, some as simple as by adjusting the impedance of the circuit.


Bingo but 99.9% of the issues I have seen have been coupling onto high impedance runs as opposed to any capacitance issues.

Like that damn mesa boogie MkIV combo...


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## Gpgtp (Jul 8, 2011)

why does it surprise ANY of you that new ppi is junk?I love my old D7 amps, but there is NO doubt that there are newer amps that are cheaper, more reliable, and better.


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## audiobaun (Jun 8, 2011)

Gpgtp said:


> why does it surprise ANY of you that new ppi is junk?I love my old D7 amps, but there is NO doubt that there are newer amps that are cheaper, more reliable, and better.


ill agree upon that..i tend to keep my autotek mean machines going as long as im kicking..old school ftw!! i just cant sacrafice trying to buy the new amps any more.i tried it..went right back to my oldies...never a thought in my mind again..even my bts series autoteks,and hifonics vii/viii series are to me..nothing but sq,along with power..best of both worlds,and unregulated supply/under rated supply???less distortion on top of that


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## jester (Jun 1, 2011)

Anybody that came from the old school days understand quality and true power. Not these chinzy amps that are over priced and overrated. I tried the new Jl Xd and hd. Not impressed.


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## Gpgtp (Jul 8, 2011)

jester said:


> Anybody that came from the old school days understand quality and true power. Not these chinzy amps that are over priced and overrated. I tried the new Jl Xd and hd. Not impressed.


hate to break it to you, but amplifiers havent changed much in time. Try a nice, quality new amp and you'll realize that todays stuff stands right in line with the old stuff. I guess nostalgia leads to psychoacoustic gains.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Gpgtp said:


> hate to break it to you, but amplifiers havent changed much in time. Try a nice, quality new amp and you'll realize that todays stuff stands right in line with the old stuff. I guess nostalgia leads to psychoacoustic gains.


Only if the desing is properly done, and if components used are hi-quality. 

Which brings me to this (sorry if I offend anyone) but why would a hi-end..hi-fidelity...SQ... amplifier have the top end output transistors and op amps but then use the CHEAPEST capacitors on earth???? 


PS: I will not name any names, you figure it out yourself, if you really want to know PM me, but I warn you I dont want to start anything.


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

1995 ish Adcom vs 2012 Pheonix Gold

I should probably take the PG apart a little bit & snag some pics before I install it. Hopefully it will compare to the old Adcom amps....


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## Ampman (Sep 7, 2011)

for2nato said:


> I saw this and just thought I would share. This is the difference between a 20 year old amp and the latest model.
> 
> First the 2012 PPI Sedona 580.2
> 
> ...


ive always wanted to see the inside of a 500ix great looking amp :shocked:


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## Ampman (Sep 7, 2011)

jcorkin said:


> i do believe old school build quality is hard to come by now days, and if you do come by it it comes at a price! dont get me wrong the new amps can produce more power with less power input, efficiency, but they just dont seem to hold up like the old ones and ill take something a bit power hungry if it means reliability in the end. plus most were made in the good ole usa, not by some 5yr old in a factory half way around the world.


 ill take the old school power yankers over whats new any O day to me nothing compares to the old school


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## for2nato (Apr 3, 2012)

Ampman said:


> ive always wanted to see the inside of a 500ix great looking amp :shocked:


Amazingly it looks very similar to the A1200, with all due respect though the art has a much larger power supply section.


Sent from your moms bedroom using TapaTalk Pro


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## for2nato (Apr 3, 2012)

Viggen said:


> 1995 ish Adcom vs 2012 Pheonix Gold
> 
> I should probably take the PG apart a little bit & snag some pics before I install it. Hopefully it will compare to the old Adcom amps....


That PG amp is really starting to grow on me. The more I look at it, the more I want to buy one!


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## for2nato (Apr 3, 2012)

Man I'm really starting to want one of those PG Elites. Oh and I have an APA500iQx on the way so Ill crack it open when it gets here to see what the differences are between the two. Ill add a pic to the thread when it shows up.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Anybody know the MSRP of the old school PPI in the picture? I'm not convinced that prices have gone up for similar quality amps. I seem to recall that a good amp 15-20 years ago cost quite a lot of money.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Anybody know the MSRP of the old school PPI in the picture? I'm not convinced that prices have gone up for similar quality amps. I seem to recall that a good amp 15-20 years ago cost quite a lot of money.


MSRP was $699.00.
Also, I couldn't find that amp listed until 1994 so it must not be a 93.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## ahardb0dy (Feb 19, 2012)

I prefer my old school PPI, I have a 2200M I bought brand new in 1990 that was refreshed one time by PPI and it still works and I use it everyday, would like to see a new PPI amp last 22 years!!


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

Viggen said:


> 1995 ish Adcom vs 2012 Pheonix Gold
> 
> I should probably take the PG apart a little bit & snag some pics before I install it. Hopefully it will compare to the old Adcom amps....


There are some gut shots of the new PG amps floating around. They look like a variation of the boards American Bass is using. I would imagine PG has some better components though.

PG









VFL-350.4


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## Ampman (Sep 7, 2011)

MACS said:


> There are some gut shots of the new PG amps floating around. They look like a variation of the boards American Bass is using. I would imagine PG has some better components though.
> 
> PG
> 
> ...


Wow!!! The PG has got some dang big out put drivers in it, what's the power rating on that beast


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

Ampman said:


> Wow!!! The PG has got some dang big out put drivers in it, what's the power rating on that beast


150x4 @ 4 ohm, 14.4v.
300x4 @ 1 ohm, 14.4v 

Here is some more pics and a review. 
PG Elite.4 review


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

Here is some old vs. new PPI Power Class for you guys.

PC4100 15th Anniversary chrome









PC-640.4


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## ncpalafox (May 26, 2012)

ive always wanted to build an old school car with generation appropriate audio equipment, this thread makes me excited


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