# 2001 Honda Accord DIY SQ



## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I have been spending all of my online forum time the past three years on SoundDomain. I stop by here from time to time, usually browsing the classifieds section. I'd like to spend some more time here when i'm overflowing with free time (*chuckle*).

Anyway, i've been heavily involved with car audio since 1993. I learned the hard way, mostly watching friends fawk things up. I started simple, selling home audio (which i was active with since i was 13) in order to bankroll a system. I always put an emphasis on music and speakers, not just subs. Every vehicle I have gets a system, and they always get progressively more complex. However, I was usually limited in what i would do based on previous experience. not having formal training meant i had to teach everything to myself, and i was always more qualified than the people i know. living in the midwest, there weren't many shows around here, but i did build relationships with local shops. One in particular was very helpful, and the sales guy i talked to the most was an IASCA competitor in the late 90's and early 2000's. He ran a late 80's Monte Carlo with Oz Audio, Alpine, and PG. He even made a few mags with his ride and took home some firsts. 

Ever since, i've always wanted to build a 3-way active front stage. Now, i'm doing it. 

The car is a 2001 Honda Accord EX V6. It is stock other than my sound system and alarm. I'm not a ricer, and not racing this. I want the end result to look mostly factory, no bulbous enclosures that are plainly visible from outside the car.

I've taken hundreds of pictures of this car over the past four years. i'm going to keep this relevant to the new build, with fewer pictures. you can see the previous work and all pics at Sound Domain.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I'll start in the trunk with the amp racks. My previous system used a pair of Xtant 403A amplifiers in the driver's side storage area. They sit pretty flush with the trunk opening.

i added a fan behind my amp rack that blows out behind the rear bumper. i had previously removed the plastic vent and installed deadener over the opening. that vent is important, but i didn't want stuff coming into the trunk. the fan solves that problem and provides additional general cooling.









i made a quick baffle and sealed it with a couple coats of paint. then used silicone to adhere it to the deadener. if i need to remove it i can just pry it apart. i used bolts to hold the fan in place so that it could also be removed when it fails.











i went through my amp rack, strengthened the build and added steel behind the amps to help increase strength. construction grade screws and Titebond III help keep it solid. Amps utilize T-nuts for mounting. really, i should just rebuild the whole thing from MDF but i will save that for a later project. 









i then covered it in carpet, something i hadn't done before but wished i had.









some pics of it fitting in with the other pieces. ignore the random wiring. it's not connected yet.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I decided on the spare tire well due to it's size and ease. also, it will keep the gear and wiring short and hidden. the signal paths are at the rear of the car, far from anything that can produce noise.

i built the framework and amp rack out of 1/2" MDF. i used PL200 and construction grade screws (no drywall screws here) to secure the rack. I used T-nuts and bolts to secure the gear.

end result:









framework in place









framework underneath - yes i meant for the screw tips to stick out. the heads are countersunk.









t-nuts and bolts for the H701









t-nuts in amp board










test fit process









have to carpet the work - i hate exposed wood.









after you carpet, remember to expose your screw holes


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i also got my ground worked out. this took about 2-3 hours one night including two hours of brainstorming of how to make this work best. in the end it looks simple, but it's location is perfect to keep all amp grounds short and also let me bolt the ground safely. 1/0 ground to a distro block, 4awg ground to each amp.

as good as it gets - sanded and bolted









bolt head and washer - this will be coated over later









i didn't want four more holes in the trunk, so i used silicone to adhere the ground block. it isn't going anywhere. 









total assembly


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

this is the gear planned for the new setup.










i should note that i will be running the tweeters on Front 1 output, the midbass on Front 2 output, and the midrange on the Rear outputs. that will give me an independent 20Hz-20kHz 1/3rd octave eq for each midrange driver (thanks Andy!).

the two xtant 403a amps will be located in the same place. i need to figure out where the xtant 3300x is going.

these are the front stage drivers (ran active)



























sub is still up for debate - i plan on testing a few different types and configurations. so the trunk will need to remain both functional and flexible. i do not want to take up any more spaced that i previously did.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Re-did my kicks this weekend. fixed my midrange mount. Andy pointed out that right angles aren't ideal for midrange speakers. he is totally right. so i remade my mounts

speaker gasketing foam on basket









t-nuts as usual. notice the cut out for the mounting tabs. 









one 3/4" layer and one 1/2" layer of MDF









made the opening on the base larger. it used to be a square. so it's not a perfect circle - neither is the opening in the metal. i prefer non-symmetry for speaker enclosures anyway.









t-nuts on the base - the speaker baffle attaches to the base with 1/4-20 T-nuts and bolts. i will seal up the base to the car with a combination of silicone, foam, modeling clay, and deadener. then my baffle will be removable. that way i can easily swap out midrange drivers in the future.









new result is free from unnecessary edges and angles


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I love modeling clay. Thanks Team Sound Domain for your recommendations and build logs, i wouldn't have used it without them. 

Screws hold the panels down, PL adhesive is used to secure the midbass baffle to the floor, and modeling clay ensures the midrange cavity is smooth and well sealed. I painted the baffles with several coats of primer and paint to help with water resistance. The bolts holding the removable midrange baffle utilize T-nuts in the vehicle baffle. I used the last of my deadener to cover the modeling clay and some select areas. everything is now sealed. I will need to get some Second Skin to cover the whole car eventually. 

Passenger side




























Here you can see the relocated computer, mounted to the bottom of the passenger side A/C area. there is a lot of crap here. 



















i will be covering these with some thin closed cell foam to smooth out the edges and bolt heads. Then I need to make grills and covers for them.


Driver's Side





































i wanted to do this when i could let the car sit for more than a day, letting the adhesives cure. Those bolts are a bit temporary. i needed 1/4-20 bolts that were long enough, but i intend on countersunk bolts for a flush appearance. 

next i need to figure out how i want to route the speaker wires. silly me, i could have just routed them BEFORE i sealed them up. now it will be a bit more involved, but i'll get it taken care of soon.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I would like to apologize for the cheapest deadener available being in these pics. i deadened this a few years ago and still had enough left to seal things up. i've been trying to bankroll a few shop packs of Damplifier Pro. Some day i'll go back over everything and do it right. For now, just forgive the "thinmat" deadener.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Midbass drivers are vented to the exterior. Luckily the accord had a nice cavity i was able to exploit. hopefully a 2" vent will be sufficient. if not, i'll have to get creative.

driver side









driver side









passenger side









passenger side









driver side









driver side


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

The midrange drivers are vented into the lower a-pillar cavity. the details of how all of these cuts were made are on SoundDomain. I had to relocate a factory "computer" and the hood latch. not a big deal, no wires were cut to relocate.

the RUX-C701 is mounted in my sunglasses holder. the controller cable is routed along the roof to the C-pillar.









and I think i'm putting the CHA-S624 in the glove box. i'll make a flush panel, trim everything in vinyl or carpet, and even add a pocket above the changer for either CD cases or vehicle documents.









power wires are protected with tech flex. i have two different colors for power wire - clear and red. ground wires are brown or black. i wanted different color power wires so i always knew which was which.









all processor and signal cables go high, same as before. all wires are in split loom except one Ai-Net cable has tech flex. the RUX-C701 control cable travels up the C-pillar.









more aluminum foil tape to secure the wires. this stuff really works great.









speaker wires come in low, same as before. what i did improve on was the wires' proximity to factory side panels. i had an issue with my two rear sill panels due to the excessive wiring. that problem is solved now. 









we split the wires to clear the factory mounts and bolts.









they route on the floor (rear passenger side still needs deadening, i'll just do that when i do my second skin install









for now, the wire is coiled up. the lengths are perfect and the routing is away from the center console (which solves some previous problems. the path is where the factory air duct used to be, so i know there is ample space










the only critique i have right now is that i didn't label the outside of the loom. i may go back and do that if it is in the rulebook. i have labels, i just wasn't thinking. i also plan on adding sound absorbing material to the floor - i will cut it to fit between the wires so, in the end, the loom + material is even. if i just put carpet on now you may be able to tell where the wire is.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

previous sub install





































sub was IB/Aperiodic. the grille in the trunk was on both sides of the rear enclosure, and sandwiched acousti-stuff. i could vary the density pretty easy. the rear board had a hole cut that lined up with the rear grille so the sub could play through the aperiodic stuffing and a layer of carpet. 

this time around, i won't have a need for processors and a changer on either side. so i have the entire width and height for a sub enclosure. the sub is still undecided. for now, i'm running the same setup, it is out of the way and i only lost 9" of trunk depth. i would like the new install to be no deeper than this.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

recently acquired CDA-9811 providing control









The CDA-7930 will be my HU most likely. Until i find a DVA-7996 or DVA-9851.









i have a sheet of ABS waiting to modify the double din opening to neatly flush up a single din radio. i may include digital gauges, i may not.

front doors with factory grills reinstalled (i removed them previously). the stock locations are not used. i currently have a set of Massive Audio components in there to get me by while i'm building this.









still don't have carpet or lower trim back in. you may notice i've painted the factory trim silver. i like it a lot better. 









previously, the Alpine SPX-177R tweeters were located in the apillars









I don't know where the OZ tweeters will live this time. i'd like to get them down by the midbass and midrange, for obvious reasons. but i've been told a second set running above 8kHz located up high (apillar or dash) will help raise my sound stage. i'll start with the OZ tweeters low, and i have some other tweeters laying around i can test with for secondary locations.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i will not have rear speakers in this install. i won't have door speakers either. 

i was previously very happy with my SPX-177R comp set up front and the Type-R sub in the rear running off two Xtant amps and controlled by a CDA-7930 and ERA-G320. i didn't miss rear speakers then, i won't miss them now. 

90% of the car is covered in one layer of "thinmat". as previously mentioned, my goal is two layers of Damplifier Pro. When I have $600 sitting around, i'll buy it. until then, the "thinmat" is better than factory (nothing) and is fine for sealing up openings and such and since i had it sitting around, i used it. i'll never buy that stuff again, not worth using 3-4 layers to get the same performance of one layer of the good stuff. 

i have an Autopage C3-RS900-LCD alarm with bypass waiting to be installed. I'll be doing that myself in the next couple weeks. 









I have some older JL subs sitting around. I have some even older Hollywood Sound Labs (JLW4 replicas) sitting around, some free-air Pioneer's, an Image Dynamics ID10D4, and the Alpine SWR-1242. My preference, if money was no object, would be Imcriminator Audio Flatlyne, but i would bankroll deadner before a $700 sub. I'd like an Oz Audio sub, but it would have to be a used Matrix Elite. Most likely, i'll end up buying an Ultra LV10 or LV12 pair.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I recognize your car from your SD thread. 
Looks good, man. Good work.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Why i posted it here:

I'm looking for input on my mibass and midrange aiming. and for a tweeter location. i've seen this setup done plenty of times before in successful systems, so i know it can work. i have enough tuning capability with the H701, but almost too much. 

i'll start tuning with an RTA, do each driver separate and then combined. i want something that images from both seats. i don't plan on competing, mostly because there aren't shows near me and my schedule doesn't allow much travel outside of work.

suggestions on where to place and how to aim the tweeters are appreciated. i'll do my own testing, but i'd like some locations to try first. 

i've been trying to find a place to put a 10" up front under the dash. i'd have to sacrifice the heat/air vents to do that. not realistic right now. there is one spot under the driver's side dash that is almost big enough for a 10, the enclosure would extend up under the factory tweeter. for now, i'm going to work on a rear sub install. comments or suggestions on a box that is 33" wide, 16" tall, and less than 9" deep are welcome. i was going to build a couple different boxes, and have Bass Box Pro 6 to assist with the design.


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

GREAT stuff man! I've liked/heard (and owned) some or all of that gear at one point or another. Love those amps and front stage in particular. 

Looking forward to following this install.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

Great job so far. Liking the attention to detail.

What freq range are your midbass playing? IMHO midbass direction doesn't matter much if they aren't playing too high (<200Hz or so with 24dB slope).
I have a cousin to the Accord, an Acura TSX, and have built MDF/fiberglass midbass kickpod enclosures which are around 0.2 cubes sealed. Have you had a chance to listen to your midbass with the exterior vent setup and how do you like them?

For the midranges, since I used up all my kickpanel space for the midbass, I ended up doing midranges in the stock door locations, but angled up and back a bit. I still had some issues with off-axis rolloff of the driver's side mid above 1kHz which I'd imagine you may also have to contend with. This is one huge advantage of going active on the front stage...you can EQ the upper freqencies of the mid driver without affecting the tweeter's response.

I ended up mounting tweeters right at the corners of the dash, on the A-pillars. The tweeters are angled up and across, aiming at the roof above the opposite person's head. I found this location and aiming to be the one that worked best for me, probably 30 degrees off axis on the near side and 15 degrees off axis on the far side. After comparing a few tweeters I ended up going with these tweets for their off-axis capability, sparkle up top, and cheap cost:
Vifa DQ25SC16-04 1" titanium Dome Tweeter from Madisound

For the sub, I did some experiments with sub placement in an Accord (my wife's car - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...0-experiment-subwoofer-orientation-trunk.html ). If you do a rear sub, you might want to try placing the box close to the rear bumper and firing the sub toward the back of the car.




keep_hope_alive said:


> Why i posted it here:
> 
> I'm looking for input on my mibass and midrange aiming. and for a tweeter location. i've seen this setup done plenty of times before in successful systems, so i know it can work. i have enough tuning capability with the H701, but almost too much.
> 
> ...


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Check the classifieds...there's a Superman Logo OZ 12 (IIRC) for sale there...

Jay


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks Jay, i'll check it out.

The midbass questions - i haven't installed them yet, those picks of the installed baffles are a week old. i need to route speaker wires, and get the trunk wired up before i'll install the midbass. i haven't heard it yet. i figure i can play with different materials inside the cavity, sealed and not, after everything is wired up correctly. my wiring is 50% complete, some of it is routed well, some has yet to be routed in a final location. i have spent a great deal of time on the wiring so far, and i'll spend many more hours getting the routing just right.

crossover settings - we'll see. due to the location of the midbass being pretty optimal, i have no problem playing it higher than 200Hz, but i don't like crossovers in the vocal range either. so we'll see. i may end up not needing the midrange at all, we'll see. i figured it best to build it with both now, then i can spend the next few years tuning. the midrange baffle has two layers so i can remove the outer one and make replacements to accept different midrange drivers. i wanted flexibility. the midbass location could also accept and 8" if i ever wanted, i would just need to increase the opening size and make a second layer. future expansion capabilities was another system requirement.

i've been playing with the OZ tweeter and i'm very happy. i've wanted OZ speakers since the late 90's but couldn't afford them then. if i get a second set of tweeters, they will be identical to my current set. 

A new Question:

when running a second set of tweeters to increase stage height (one in the kick, one above the dash) should i have separate tuning for them? separate T/A? separate eq? right now, i could run them in parallel with the kick tweeters but i don't have extra channels to power and control them separately. is this just a bad idea overall? i've never ran two tweeter pairs up front before. i guess i'll just experiment with the single set for now.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

How do you plan to integrate the midbass enclosures into your car?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bassfromspace said:


> How do you plan to integrate the midbass enclosures into your car?


i assume you mean cosmetically? 

i haven't decided if i want the midbass hidden by carpet - playing through it, or if i want them to have an integrated grille. 

my overall goal is to copy Scott Buwalda's 240z and do this:


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

I thought you were trying to copy Andy-Mutha-F-in-Jones!

Lets fix your tweeter placement, those xt19's hate to be positioned like that, I have the same car and had those tweeters at one point too. You dont think they disperse a little too narrow?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

keep_hope_alive said:


> i assume you mean cosmetically?
> 
> i haven't decided if i want the midbass hidden by carpet - playing through it, or if i want them to have an integrated grille.
> 
> my overall goal is to copy Scott Buwalda's 240z and do this:


Yes sir, I meant cosmetically.

Thanks for the info.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

of note: neither of the baffles extend past factory panels or carpet. the midbass baffle is flush with the factory deadening. the midrange baffle is the same depth as the factory computer it replaces, so the factory kickpanels could cover it up. so nothing i've done in the kick takes up any more space than factory panels and carpet - that was one design goal.

i don't want to put grilles in the factory plastic panels because i don't want to hurt the already off-axis response of the midrange. i want as much off-axis response as i can get. 

for starters, i'll use a fiberglass mold to smooth out everything and prevent sharp angles from causing unwanted refraction. 

then i'll make a wire frame and grill cloth cover for starters. something that is as acoustically transparent as possible. that way i can get the drivers installed and operational. 

then i'll work on something with an integral grille like Scott's 240z install.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Megalomaniac said:


> I thought you were trying to copy Andy-Mutha-F-in-Jones!
> 
> Lets fix your tweeter placement, those xt19's hate to be positioned like that, I have the same car and had those tweeters at one point too. You dont think they disperse a little too narrow?


AFMJ also has a similar install, as have lots of previous competitors. i figure, if it's good enough for world finals, it's good enough for my car.

totally ignore the Alpine XT19's - they are sold and long gone. i wasn't happy with that location either. now I have a Oz Audio CS100 and CS180 set for my 3-way. the Oz tweeters will require their own testing to determine a good location and aiming.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

nice! great work, i like alot of your techniques. thanks for sharing.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

thanks for the compliments. i estimate i have another 50-60 hours left before i can consider it substantially complete.

any good ideas will be considered.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

why dont you just try putting everything on axis (as possible) in the kick? why even try the extreme off axis mid in the kick? 

id prolly put the speakers in some kind of temp enclosures as small as possible with some flexible vent plastic tube stuff out your exhaust vents there and test your aiming that way. put your tweet down there and up top (just use a nice long jumper wire for testing) and see what actually works the best.

testing real life is the only thing that will work the best man. sometimes its not feasible, but if you really want it to work you need to experiment.

and like he said above, just see if you can scoop the S logo oz audio 12 in the classifieds - and do it IB (no AP stuff) and retain 99% trunk space? thats what i would do.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

thanks for the input. i looked at some on-axis possibilities in the kick. 



















there were a couple of issues with this layout

first - the passenger midrange was too high and totally blocked by the blower motor and lower dash. with the seats fully back and slightly reclined it could work, but that is not how i drive nor passengers sit. 

second - it made the enclosure tricky and coupled the midbass and mid. i didn't want to do that. 

have some ideas on getting the mid angled or even on axis if i need.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

Looks like you have plenty of room. Swap the midbass and midrange positions so the midrange are in the floor on-axis and the midbass are on the kick walls. Midrange are much more susceptible to frequency response irregularities from off-axis mounting than the midbass EVER will.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

pwnt by pat said:


> Looks like you have plenty of room. Swap the midbass and midrange positions so the midrange are in the floor on-axis and the midbass are on the kick walls. Midrange are much more susceptible to frequency response irregularities from off-axis mounting than the midbass EVER will.


nice idea, i considered this early on for the same reason. off-axis speakers are not logical to me. the only reason i decided to try it was the recent success by others. if i'm not happy, i can always redo it.

Currently, kick wall opening is too small to recess the midbass magnet, and i'm not going to cut out any more steel right now. my design goal to maintain factory kick space is also limiting the location. i recognize that it is not ideal. my backup plan is to replace my midrange baffle with a FG pod that moves the mid out and aims it on-axis. this would partially block the midbass, but nothing that should severely affect midbass anyway. 

if i had the mig welder working i would consider removing more metal and reinforcing the assembly. one of my winter projects is to get that working. i also considered leaving the midbass in the doors and putting the midrange in the kick floor. But this Oz midbass is the low Q version. I'd need the high-Q version to put them in the doors. 

at first, i will try just running a two-way with the 6.5" and tweeter. the 6.5 is a capable midrange also. then i'll introduce the midrange and see if things improve or get worse. 

keep the ideas coming!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pwnt by pat said:


> Looks like you have plenty of room. Swap the midbass and midrange positions so the midrange are in the floor on-axis and the midbass are on the kick walls. Midrange are much more susceptible to frequency response irregularities from off-axis mounting than the midbass EVER will.


Heck, I thought that what he was doing.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm very interested in how you end up setting up the midbass. I didn't like mine in the doors due to PLD and the doors being a horrible enclosure for bass and I wasn't getting enough "bite" in the 65-80Hz region. Now that I have the midbass in sealed MDF/f'glass kickpod enclosures, they have more bite, but I had to EQ the hell out of them around 125Hz. I think midbass IB in the kicks, maybe with a AP membrane from enclosure into the kickpanel, will be my next attempt at getting the response I'm looking for with minimal EQ and minimal PLD.



keep_hope_alive said:


> nice idea, i considered this early on for the same reason. off-axis speakers are not logical to me. the only reason i decided to try it was the recent success by others. if i'm not happy, i can always redo it.
> 
> Currently, kick wall opening is too small to recess the midbass magnet, and i'm not going to cut out any more steel right now. my design goal to maintain factory kick space is also limiting the location. i recognize that it is not ideal. my backup plan is to replace my midrange baffle with a FG pod that moves the mid out and aims it on-axis. this would partially block the midbass, but nothing that should severely affect midbass anyway.
> 
> ...


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

bikini said:


> Heck, I thought that what he was doing.


I suggested midrange in the floor, midbass in the side-wall. These are both midrange in the side-wall and midbass in the floor, and horrible when it comes to upper midrange extension due to the off-axis mounting of the midrange. If you come up with a tweeter array that plays low enough, sure it _could_ work. Just have to remember that beaming will occur around 3khz with the midrange like that, ignoring any cancellation caused by firing the speakers right across towards each other.


















Oh, and not sure how the accord is set up, but those two locations in my golf share the same airspace.

Also make sure to round those baffles behind the driver over!


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

all good input guys. i do recognize that beaming can occur with this setup. running a midrange off axis has been a concern of mine. i don't want to move the midrange too far inward for fear of narrowing the sound stage. 

my understanding is that with imaging over 2kHz intensity plays a larger role than phase. the off axis nature of the drivers provides natural attenuation of the closest driver from both seats. 

i'll look at swapping the drivers this weekend. 

the center console prevents cancellation due to the drivers facing each other, so that shouldn't be an issue.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

after getting the CS180's in the floor, i'm already 100x happier... a combination of these drivers and this location. imaging improved drastically compared to the doors (as was expected).

thoughts on this application?

i used fiberglass in the cavity, then used grill cloth to protect the speaker. fiberglass is much better than polyfill or other substitutes, but the fibers are not desirable inside the speaker and voice coil. heat shrink covers the twisted speaker wires. i have speaker gasket foam on both sides of the midbass basket - to seal against the baffle, and prevent any rattles with the plastic grill cover. 




























i used heat shrink on the speaker wires, then labeled positive with red tape. works for me. the wires are labeled farther down the run. i added another label at the speaker after i took this pic.


i had some older Alpine grills sitting around (no Oz grills). eventually i'll fiberglass a cover. 





























it looks rough, i'm looking forward to starting the "finishing" stages where i reassemble the car and make decorative covers. the foam is temporary while the carpet is out. the grills are temporary. CS180 set is ran active. tweeters are temporarily mounted at the dash. i'm going to get the mids installed next, then experiment with tweeter locations. maybe i'll settle on a 2-way. maybe the mids will work dispite their off axis mounting and i'll stick with 3-way. only testing will tell me for sure.


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

can you even hear the 3 tucked up in the kick like that? i ask this i have a 98 accord and from where i sit i could not even see the speaker in my car. i am goning to run a active 2 way with vifa 25dc tweeters and mach audio mids. all factory locations. will se what happens. i like your work alot.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i haven't heard the 4" midrange in the side kick yet. those pics were taken last night. i'm busy at work, with family, and other household chores (including detail cleaning the Milwaukee Miter saw I recently bought on CL). 

i hope to get to the mids this weekend. more importantly, i need to install my new alarm this weekend too. now that gear is going in, the alarm should really precede it. i have a nice, secure garage, and the work lot is secure. but just incase...


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

thats what is happening to my car this weekend.


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

K_H_A... I bow in your general direction!


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the alarm is in. i figured that it made more sense to install security BEFORE i install all of the gear. 

Anyway, that install went well, glad it's done, and very happy I was able to do it myself, as a first-timer, without problems. An Autopage CI3-RS900-LCD protects the car now. 

I am going to rewire with 1/0 next, and another run of 4C speaker wire to the front (for more options later). Then i'll make my kick panel cover and get my carpet back in (FINALLY). Then i'll do the trunk, then the tweeters, then the dash.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

well. i achieved a milestone this weekend. i have all drivers installed, protected, mounted, wired, working, etc. all amps wired, and working. everything is 100% functional and now i can begin RTA testing and tuning.

tweeter pods in the a-pillars. i tried something new - pvc cup sized for the flush mounting tweeter cup. some clay to get the overall shape. i need to fiberglass pods this shape next. but for now i'll just test with these (and cover with carpet). the clay won't stay and i'll probably remake these in every aspect. for now they are representative of my overall goals.



















next i made a custom grille for the OZ midbass. i don't like the metal waffle grills, and they are ugly as hell, but in this case i needed something temporary but strong. i used a spare speaker grille laying around for the 4", again, something to protect it. i need to fabricate a complete kick panel cover, that includes the kick door trim.



















then i covered it with speaker grille cloth. right not it's not secured to anything. ideally, this cloth would be integrated into the carpet, or i'll replace the carpet and hide the speaker grille completely.









finally, a hole cut in the carpet was coordinated with the grille. it's a tight fit, which helps. not the most cosmetic solution, but it is functional for testing.



















my rubber floor mats just fit. a trim may be required though.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Driver's side - same thing.




























Next, i worked on the amps. they are properly wired to the speakers, and to the processor. note how my power supplies are all aligned, power comes from driver's side, 1/0 into Maxi fused distribution block, 4awg to amps, 10awg to processor/relays. 

the speaker wires are all aligned in the middle, routed in the middle. all signal cables on passenger side, routed at the rear of the vehicle. i know that it's not much of a concern to cross paths, but i don't anyway. 

the RCA's are temporary Monster cable. I have Y-adapters at the amps since everything is bridged mono. 



























i need to clean the covers









for a temporary sub i am using my previous baffle with a custom 3/4" birtch ply enclosure (i made a long time ago) with a JL Audio W3D4.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I installed the CDA-7930 again, it's simple and clean. i have a CDA-7949 sitting on my desk and in need of a new optical pick-up.
i redid my previous wiring config for the head unit, 10awg to the battery, ignition wire controlling a relay coil. pretty straight forward. 



















head unit ground - 10awg










RUX-C701 controller still mounted in the overhead location 









a shot of all the front speakers. 


















initial opinions - awesome. considering i have no tuning, initial crossover settings are conservative, gain setting was based on balancing levels (fairly low power), some initial general eq shelves, etc., i'm happy.

i was concerned how those 4's would perform in that location, they are nice. i was concerned about the midbass air flow, it is adequate (i redid the insulation inside the kick to allow an unobstructed path to the vent).

now i can bust out the RTA and start tuning individual drivers. 




none of this work is near final. this effort was to get everything in place for testing. i have a lot of fiberglass work ahead of me to improve the cosmetics. i still need to fabricate the trunk and integrate a sub enclosure.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

How is the midbass response and extension in your setup, any comments?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

jsun_g said:


> How is the midbass response and extension in your setup, any comments?


good. they play low (good 'ol OZ) and have an expected peak (around 125Hz). ideally, I would have a sealed enclosure for them, about .4 cu. ft. or so. for now, the vent is sufficient. what i may play with is filling the irregular cavities to direct more flow out the vent. right now i have some corners that i will fill with modeling clay. i'm just getting everything dialed in, shelving here and there, playing with crossover settings. they did fine with a 50Hz HPF at 18dB/oct. right now i think i have them up at 63Hz and 24dB/oct as i was able to get the JL to blend with the front stage a bit higher than expected. 

we sent our Sound Devices USBPre back to have the headphone pot replaced. when that comes back i'll be able to RTA each driver (which i will share on here). we use that as our mic preamp/sound card. we have an Earthworks M50 measurement mic to go with it (as well as a much cheaper Behringer ECM8000). the interface is a laptop dedicated for Goldwave and True RTA. we are looking for better software for data acquisition and RTA. 

i have a lot of tuning left, a lot of fabrication left, but at least i'm enjoying it.


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

I would @least try to go with a dark grey or even black covers (woofers) for cosmetic
or even dirty purposes. LOVE the install, where did you install the 10awg ground>>>?
GOOD LUCK AND KEEP GOING!


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the final covers will not look like ass, which is what my kicks look like now. it doesn't look bad with the black metal grill showing, but the cloth protects from moisture. winter is coming and i need something to help prevent them from getting wet (poly cones and rubber surround help). 

my first goal is to find matching carpet, open weave that the midbass can play through. i'll start with Parts Express unless someone knows where i can get open weave automotive carpet in a matching light gray? i would prefer that the driver is completely hidden and protected. the side midrange is a different story. that will require a fiberglassed grille cover - something dark gray to match factory trim. i may start with carpet if i don't get attenuation below 5kHz. the RTA will help me determine any affects of covers.

i haven't ruled out moving midbass to custom door pods and the 4" and tweeter to the kick floor. i recognize that would offer better on-axis imaging. 

i really like that zero floor space was consumed though.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

abusiveDAD said:


> where did you install the 10awg ground?


at the shifter location, bare metal bracket with large surface area in contact with the floor. it's a very low resistance path. considering that HU only needs about 5A, it's overkill. But since the length is a bit more than desired (i didn't want to ground at the SRS brain) a larger size is a good idea. plus, i have 10awg power. 

the reason for the dedicated HU power is two-fold
1. it's cleaner, electrically cleaner. no possibility of noise, voltage drop, etc. from the car's interior electrical system.
2. lower resistance path = minimized difference between amps and source. while the HU is mostly just a controller with the preamps in the trunk, it's something i've been doing to eliminate the chance of noise or ground loops. when i move to optical out of the HU and changer, i'm hoping that isolation will be even more beneficial. 

i have no audible whine or noise. no audible background hiss, thankfully. My previous install with an ERA-G320 was a bit noisy. 

now that i think of it, i should run another 10awg wire to the dash, to add some 12V outlets, including one at the console for charging my phone. switches, wires, fuses, sockets, all inexpensive and simple. the fabrication to make it look factory? difficult.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Great work. Just curious why you vented into the exterior versus maybe venting into the frame rail/channel that runs under the doors (its supposed to be a big cavity).

Juan


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

Glad it's working out for you after all that effort. I hear ya on the 0.4 cubes...my sealed kickpanel enclosures are about 0.2 cubes and ideally I need double that. I have been contemplating Juan's suggestion of venting into the car frame and ditching the large enclosures.

I'll be looking forward to the RTA specifically of the midbass drivers unequalized.

BTW Juan nice to see you on here. I bought some subs (Petras Prowlers) off you oh about 14 years ago (remember UPS mangled one of the subs and the cardboard box looked like hammered $hit...).




keep_hope_alive said:


> good. they play low (good 'ol OZ) and have an expected peak (around 125Hz). ideally, I would have a sealed enclosure for them, about .4 cu. ft. or so. for now, the vent is sufficient. what i may play with is filling the irregular cavities to direct more flow out the vent. right now i have some corners that i will fill with modeling clay. i'm just getting everything dialed in, shelving here and there, playing with crossover settings. they did fine with a 50Hz HPF at 18dB/oct. right now i think i have them up at 63Hz and 24dB/oct as i was able to get the JL to blend with the front stage a bit higher than expected.
> 
> we sent our Sound Devices USBPre back to have the headphone pot replaced. when that comes back i'll be able to RTA each driver (which i will share on here). we use that as our mic preamp/sound card. we have an Earthworks M50 measurement mic to go with it (as well as a much cheaper Behringer ECM8000). the interface is a laptop dedicated for Goldwave and True RTA. we are looking for better software for data acquisition and RTA.
> 
> i have a lot of tuning left, a lot of fabrication left, but at least i'm enjoying it.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Yeah, I remember that one. One of the few shipments that went haywire for me. I started working for RPS shortly there after and I don't think I've ever shipped something that heavy ever again (4 15" woofers in one box?!? what was I thinking?) They made the mistake of giving me a managers name so I think they gave up trying to hide from me and just paid the claim.

Juan


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

Not to hijack the thread but just a quick note on that shipment...
I went to the UPS distro center directly after the 15's came in and took the damaged sub and box with me. I convinced them to ship a replacement sub from you overnight at no cost. I think the shipping alone came to $160. LOL.
Good times...



OldOneEye said:


> Yeah, I remember that one. One of the few shipments that went haywire for me. I started working for RPS shortly there after and I don't think I've ever shipped something that heavy ever again (4 15" woofers in one box?!? what was I thinking?) They made the mistake of giving me a managers name so I think they gave up trying to hide from me and just paid the claim.
> 
> Juan


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

OldOneEye said:


> Great work. Just curious why you vented into the exterior versus maybe venting into the frame rail/channel that runs under the doors (its supposed to be a big cavity).
> 
> Juan



two reasons:

1. access - i found some frame cavities, but the one was shared with the mid cavity (outside of each mid) and the other was under the car (just to the inside of each midbass). but to make a clean hole into either would either force my enclosure to take up floor space or cut away even more metal.

2. structural - i didn't want to do anything to reduce the structural integrity of the frame. ideally, you'd reinforce the hole in the frame with some plate steel, but i can't weld (yet). 

i did not want to sacrifice any safety. the hole in the floor was an empty cavity anyway, no harm done. the hole in the side kick is an arguable weak point, but since i didn't extend the hole around the sides i feel it's just as strong (plus, it's a small hole).


after i made the vent i made it a mission to find as many deep puddles as possible to check for water infiltration. i still have a factory drain hole as well as the vent, and i did not find any wetness despite deep puddles. i feel the drivers will be safe. i also used fiberglass since it's not organic, and won't support mold as easily. if it does get damp, it can dry out easily.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

thanks for the comments. i'm still not 100% sold on the off-axis midrange drivers. 

i will be testing an active 2-way as well as the 3-way, since the midbass location is near ideal. a second set of OZ tweeters would be nice, located in the kick.

if i cut away more metal, reinforce with steel, i know how i can get the kick mids on axis (in front of, and outside of the midbass drivers).


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Why do you want to put a 2nd set of tweets?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Megalomaniac said:


> Why do you want to put a 2nd set of tweets?


a second set down by the midbass drivers would let me experiment more. apillar vs kick. it would also let me increase the apillar tweeter HPF above 6-7kHz (just for stage height) and decrease the kick tweeter HPF to counter beaming.. 

my understanding is that with the separation of the tweet to the apillar, i should keep the HPF at or above 4kHz (i know i misspoke earlier by saying 2kHz). however, the midrange may start beaming before 4kHz. while I know the off-axis midrange isn't ideal, but if it can win world championships, it must work somehow with some drivers. 

also, a set in the kicks would let me experiment with a simple two-way using the 6.5". Until I RTA I won't know the true upper limit of that driver.

Something to consider is the impedance curves of the drivers.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

RTA Results December 5-6th 2009

Behringer ECM8000 (with correction file)
Rohls mic preamp/phantom power
TrueRTA
Creative Audigy PCIMA sound card
(the better RTA kit is occupied currently)

First pass after initial install.

I varied the used of 1/3rd oct. and 1/24th oct depending on what i wanted to see. 1/3rd oct helped with my 1/3rd oct eq adjustments. 

also, i counted comb filtering by moving the mic around the head location during the measurement. this proved helpful in determining what was interference with a single mic location, and what was actual system response. 

not the scales change in the tuned versions. my goal was a 5dB variance, which i mostly achieved. the midbass was hot in the 125Hz area, which i do like a boost there, but not as much as there was. i also notice some areas that seemed more sensitive to my ears than others.

background noise:









driver midbass with mic in the kick, eq flat, 63Hz HPF













driver midbass with mic at headrest, eq flat, 63Hz HPF, mic was fixed position









driver midrange with mic at headrest, eq flat, 100Hz HPF, mic was fixed position











driver midbass, flat eq, mic at driver headrest, moving mic
notice the 15dB variance was reduced to about 5db.









driver midbass tuned, mic at driver headrest, moving mic













driver midrange, eq flat, mic at driver headrest, moving mic
notice the 15dB variance was reduced to about 5db.









driver midrange, tuned, mic at driver headrest, moving mic













both tweeters tuned, mic at drivers headrest, moving mic
no before pic, it wasn't too far off actually










at this point i started playing with crossover settings, slopes, gain adustments, and doing some tuning by ear. played several tracks from the JL Labs Tools CD 2 and some music i'm familiar with. i have done some more adjustment since then. it's a better starting point than it was.
all speakers, crossover points are 315Hz and 4kHz, mic at passenger headrest


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

Looking good...
Noticed the ~125Hz peak in the midrange as well as the midbass, so it may not be a midbass or midbass enclosure cavity issue, maybe more of a matter of general speaker placement and car dimensions coming into play.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

good point. i can also hear that hump, even before the RTA i was attenuating the 125Hz band and neighboring bands.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Got the kicks cleaned up. Modified the factory kick panel cover. The future for these speakers is a fiberglass grille, i'll use the factory cover as a mold. For now, it's better than it was - even with a black marker outline. :O New carpet is totally flush with factory (and is open weave - acoustically "transparent") BTW the factory carpet was stained when I got it.






































Temporary bass provided by JL12W3D4 running sealed with the same baffle as before.









Not sure if I shared the 1/0 wiring upgrade, and battery wiring. It's a bit cleaner now. Fuse holder is bolted to the metal battery mount.


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

Great work, man would I love to hear that car!!!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

good to see progress in the project....

(unlike mine)


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> good to see progress in the project....
> 
> (unlike mine)



Despite it being below 20 degrees every night, i'm trying to make progress here and there. Garage stays around 30 if the heater is running. 

It sounds pretty good. I've been playing with it a lot. Doing a lot of back and forth with presets, experimenting with how crossover settings change the sound stage. While running it as a two-way (mid off) has a much more solid stage, the Oz 180's doesn't have enough output at 4kHz for my tastes. I much prefer the overall sound of the 3-way with mid/midbass x-over anywhere between 360Hz and 500Hz. Surprisingly, despite being off axis like they are, the Oz 100's do a great job up to (and above) 4kHz. 

I am excited about getting the IB wall built. I have the wood, pattern, materials, tools, etc. just waiting. All I need is the time and a warmer day (i'll take 40 deg).


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

awsome install. I know how you feel, working in the cold... It was -3* when I was working on my a-pilliars, finished them and drove the car out of the shop, and the glue and vinyl came lose. Now I'm in FL. with no where to work, and I need to re-wrap my pillars, and finish a few trim panels. any one in the Fort myers area can help me out!!!. keep up the work. Maybe some time I can drive down to Ill. and get a demo.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I am excited about getting the IB wall built. I have the wood, pattern, materials, tools, etc. just waiting. All I need is the time and a warmer day (i'll take 40 deg).


hmm cold, indeed. (not that I experiance it that much)

When i went IB in my Accord I wasn't 100% sure what I was getting into (as it wasn't regular IB). But now that its done, the low end of it is addictive. IB and in particular, IB with clean power and a LARGE driver is awesome.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

How did I miss this update? :surprised:

Now those locations I could live with. The standard "kickpanel" install intrudes into the dead pedal area too much, IMO.

Although I'm wondering...can the speakers still get wet through the carpet and grille cloth? The midbass on the floor is exactly where I rest my foot and you know all about winter, as well...  With a metal grille in place, I wouldn't be scared to put my foot through the speaker, but moisture would still concern me...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

^I have been checking on the floor mounted midbass drivers throughout the winter - we had a decent amount of steady snow on the ground this winter. The drivers were good to go - they did have some light dusting on them, that was with the waffle grills. Now I have the actual Oz Audio grills. We'll see if this prevents as much ingress. 

I'm really happy with how it's coming along. I have more tuning to do to achieve a rock solid two seats. One seat is fairly easy to get a great sound stage. All of the locations are working out great. I am still comparing 3-way vs. 2-way with presets on the H701. It's nice having that functionality. The Oz don't play as high as i'd like for a great 2-way given my tweeter locations. 

Did some cleaning up tonight. I installed the Oz Audio grills, and adjusted the polyfill inside the cavity. I'm still getting a resonance at 125Hz that I can tame with the EQ, but it's a noticeable loss in midbass at that band. I have some ideas for ways to eliminate it. For now, it's still imaging great and sounds very good. I know it's enclosure, it's the only tone that vibrates the floor. The baffle is rock solid, I'm going to try filling in some of the corner voids in the cavity.




























Next, I experimented with covering the Apillar with fabric - this is a fleece type material. I chose black so that they would be less noticeable from outside - blends with the tinting and tweeter. not sure i'm a huge fan of the color since nothing else is black. i'll experiment more with other fabric colors, grill cloths, etc. for now, it's certainly better than it was. In the end, I may go with a matching color and figure out a way to cover the tweeters without reducing high frequency output (i.e. non-absorbing). Since they are way less obvious from outside the car - i consider it mission accomplished. That was the #1 goal anyway.





























Next I need to figure out what i'm doing in the trunk. I now have the pair of 300H's and a pair of 250L's. I'm thinking about the 250L's in the rear corners. Then I need to relocate the amps. I also picked up a second 3300c, so my amplifications options have increase (as well as required floor space). I'm not 100% sold on the IB wall yet. I like the idea, but i'm really happy with placing the JL Audio 12W3 in a sealed enclosure at the rear passenger corner of the trunk. Decisions, decisions. I think some testing is in order...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Another task is to fix the HU mount by making it a single opening. And I need to make a panel to close off the driver's side under dash. I'm sure i'm getting a pathway from the driver's kick drivers up through the dash. 

Any ideas/experience using materials to close off the under dash cavity? Obviously, it needs to be removable, but rigid. 1/2" MDF?


I also want to add some 2" acoustical foam to the center console sides, try and absorb some upper midrange reflections. I also want to repaint or cover the door speaker grills - nothing there anyway (blanked off for road noise). 

I am also looking into some dash pads. 

It'll never end.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Have you considered ordering new automotive carpet to cover the floor and hide midbass?
In the pictures it sticks out like a sore thumb.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Have you considered ordering new automotive carpet to cover the floor and hide midbass?
> In the pictures it sticks out like a sore thumb.


oh hell yea. it's hideous. i can't decide if i want to put a layer of new open weave carpet on the existing carpet, or buy new. the reason i would layer is so i can leave the factory cut out and put the open weave on top - sew the edges and glue the center. 

if i buy new carpet, i'll still need to cut out for the speakers since the factory carpet has a rigid backing, and i'm in the same spot i am now except maybe, just maybe, it will be a close match (unlikely). 

the factory carpet is stained anyway, bugs the hell out of me. 

or, i buy the open weave carpet i like, and put a mass loaded vinyl barrier with a decoupler down - and just ditch the factory carpet altogether. that way i can have a seamless appearance (desired) while controlling what is acoustically transparent.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

for an underlayment i'm looking at Vibramat from SoundSense
http://www.soundsense.com/pdfs/Vibramat.pdf

SoundSense has some nice products (I usually specify them for commercial buildings)
SoundSense, LLC - Acoustical Engineering and Design Specialists - Products

or Acoustical Surfaces has good products. 
Mass Loaded Vinyl Barrier with Decoupler

If I had been thinking, i would have been using GreenGlue to adhere my kick baffles - as a viscoelastic adhesive.


Yes, I know Luxury Liner Pro is a very similar product. I'm taking that into consideration also. I'll be contacting Ant for the transmission loss data associated with his product.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

personally, I'd just buy carpet that matches the OEM carpet in color and put it down on the floor. Cut to desired shape, and stitch together. 
non-backed carpet can lay over the midbasses without any effect on their FR. 

I did this, though I couldn’t find a good OEM match. I just laid it down on the floor, stapled some spots in and called it a day. At some point I want to find a closer match, but so far I’ve had no luck and quite frankly don’t care enough to bother right now.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

all new OEM carpet is $450 (#3 below). for that price i'd make my own out of MLV, closed cell foam, and automotive carpet.  Honestly, i'll probably use the same unbacked automotive carpet you see in the pics in front of the speakers, and recover the floor. that should look much nicer and cost less than 10% of the OEM replacement.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

right, I didn't say buy the OEM carpet. I said buy some that matches the OEM carpet _color_. 
Your Auto Trim Store


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

thanks for the link! i've been looking for a store like that to cover my plastic panels.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

no problem, man.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i also found this:
The Fleece Lady - Steel Grey Fleece Fleece Fabric - Buy Discount Fleece Fabric, 100% Cotton Quilt Fabric and Flannel by the Yard

that gray would be perfect for my pillar panels. i want something soft, fairly thick, and that easily stretches and glues. and if i ever want a different look - it's ready for resin!


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## barrys (Dec 29, 2009)

Looks great Rich !!!!!!!!


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

turns out that some time ago the driver's side sunroof drain hose came loose, and was aimed at the midrange baffle. it also turns out that coats of spray paint are NOT sufficient for water resistance. any future baffles will have a coat of resin.

The result:



















So I replaced the drain hose in the proper location, made a new midrange mount, dried the carpet, and laid down some BXT II on the baffles. I also added 1.5lbs of non-hardening modeling clay inside the midbass cavity - in the nooks and crannies, along the baffle inside seams, etc. I also put in a ribbed rubber mat to mimic a deflex pad.



















Then I did the passenger side as well, new deadening, another 1.5lbs of modeling clay, rubber mat, etc.









new baffle is same as previous. i designed these baffles to be removable and swappable - good thing. 









Next plan is to add mass to the front floorboards. After some correspondence with Scott B., i have some ideas to eliminate any modes that may be excited by the midbass.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Finally started on the universal, bolt-on IB wall. I used two sandwiched layers of 3/4" MDF, with 1/4-20 T-nuts. I was thinking about one solid, layer, but in order to be tight against the metal it needed to be in pieces. 

Here are some build pics.

sides are unique, i used a paddle bit to recess the t-nut


















wood glue and clamp overnight









tops and bottoms of similar construction










fit is so tight, it was able to remain held up with friction (very handy for testing)


















i used a board to verify the alignment


















wood glue on the seams and silicone (a lot of silicone) in the middle and along each side where it meets the car. silicone was chosen so the boards had the slightest bit of play with the vehicle body.









tight fit, hand sanded to match all undulations









too bad it's raining today - would have been a nice day to leave the windows down at work...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I re-routed my power and control wires to go under the IB board. The speaker wires already are on the passenger side, so I needed to accommodate them anyway. having them go through above the wheel wells made for an awkward routing, that was just in the way. I also cut off 4 feet in length. 









i'll get the power wires secured and cleaned up soon.









passenger side speaker wires low (signal high)









I made the bottom in two pieces, supported it, they will be removable, but sealed.



















as-is, the floor will be in two parts. That may change soon also, but I do like having the second piece something I can secure and seal the wire penetrations.










not near done yet though, I think that MDF is in need of some resin...

...and the vehicle is in need of some quality sound deadening products. luckily, i'm pretty sure i can peal the fatmat off the car, so the new stuff can actually work. all in time...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

my first ever attempt at fiberglass was so-so. i'll only get better with time. for now, i have a lot of cleaning up to do - i need a fairly flat face for the IB wall to seal to. 

i mixed 4oz, then 4oz more, then 8oz of resin. I was trying to get a feel for how much i was going to use. separate batches gave me enough time to use it all without being in too much of a hurry.

i focused on the lower seams as i see that as the weakest part. but i also did every seam. the lower seams ended up with 4 layers, the other seams had 3. should be sufficient considering it's just supporting a 3/4" IB wall with <500W RMS. 

these pics were 1/2 way through. i'll take more after i clean it up a bit. sanding and trimming this in the car is gonna be a messy PITA. thank god for the shop vac.




























i ended up using about 4x the amount of fiberglass pieces that are shown here.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

day two of the IB wall fiberglass

i learned it's a good idea to pre-fit the pieces









i also used these pieces and had cardboard down that i could just pitch after









the front bottom was glassed to the vehicle also. i noticed the bottom rung of the opening had some movement to it. this will hold it firm, and also seals it against the vehicle and opening.









because the fuel pump is under this, i marked it's location. if need be, i'll have to cut out the middle section, then piece in some bracing later. i already have the replacement planned out









the entire baffle is now sealed against the vehicle. my only air pathways left are a few in the rear deck and the two upper corners where wire passes. i'm thinking about just stuffing some foam in those openings, we'll see.

also, i'm going to use the factory braces to further ensure the vehicle is stiff and firm. note that i purposely did not glass the sides of the braces to the strut towers. i did glass the top brace to the rear deck and the bottom to the floor. i am relying on the silicone along the edges to not only seal, but allow a minimal amount of structural flex for the suspension. i do expect this to noticeably stiffen the rear deck and strut towers.

this is fun!

any comments and ideas for this IB wall are greatly appreciated - as long as they are reasonable and don't require i tear it out and start over.  

After some more fg, i'll do a layer or two of filler, to give myself a smooth surface. then i'll carpet the cabin side. i'm debating on carpeting the trunk side since i need a tight seal there. can foam gasketing seal against carpet? or should i fill, sand, (repeat), paint the trunk side for a smooth surface for the IB board to seal against? 

i'm currently just planning on carpeting everything.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

The wall is looking very sturdy. F'glass can be a ***** to apply on a vertical surface, or upside down. Out of curiousity, are you using f'glass to seal the MDF from possible moisture, or to attach the MDF to the car's metal, or ???
If you are using it to attach the baffle to the car, I hope you sanded the metal and glassed the baffle to it (one of the pictures looks like the glass was applied from the baffle over some sound deadener).


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

good question. I used fiberglass and resin for two purposes:
1. protect the MDF from moisture. i've seen what water can do to MDF, i don't want the work of this wall to be ruined by some water. 
2. to help seal the MDF to the vehicle.

i'm not relying on the fiberglass to be a "structural attachment" to the vehicle. i have enough silicone to hold it in place, and the fg to the foil/deadener with the MDF does act as a nice seal. i purposely applied the fg on top of deadener and foil tape (split loom with wires) so it wasn't fg'd to the metal permanently. had I wanted the baffle to be totally permanant, i would have removed the "deadener", sanded down paint for the resin to make an actual attachment. 

this is an experiment, and i do want the ability to remove the whole assembly in the future if needed. right now, i could remove everything with some force and scraping. 

the two OZ-300H sub with 180W RMS each won't be enough force to move the baffle as it is now.

i have never attempted something like this before, it is certainly a learn-as-i-go experience. my previous AP/IB setup wasn't well sealed, and was quite different.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

a pair of box fans have been helping the smell inside the car.









after a few hours of drying. the flex in the bottom of the opening is completely gone (obviously)









it looks and feels like a nice seal. you can see my markings for what's below - including my "future saw cut for fuel pump access".  i have 1" MDF siliconed to the car floor beneath the rectangles - for support. i can screw into those if necessary.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

Kick ass.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

wicked! good to see someone esle hacking this model honda up! 
With the kick panel area, make up baffles to cover the entire under area of the dash, from the firewall to the first edge of the lower trims. This will help guide the waves better and make it more even from L to R sides of the car.
The tricky part is getting around the pedals.


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## lashlee (Aug 16, 2007)

Looks great!! I'd like to do an IB setup in my 98 but I just can't make myself do it. Good luck on the rest of the build.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> wicked! good to see someone esle hacking this model honda up!
> With the kick panel area, make up baffles to cover the entire under area of the dash, from the firewall to the first edge of the lower trims. This will help guide the waves better and make it more even from L to R sides of the car.
> The tricky part is getting around the pedals.


this is good advice. it's on my "to-do list", i completely recognize the need.


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

This is a fantastic install... I'd really love to hear it.
BTW, my wife's MDX sunroof drain is leaking, is that easy to fix?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

> This is a fantastic install... I'd really love to hear it.
> BTW, my wife's MDX sunroof drain is leaking, is that easy to fix?


my sunroof drain was a tube that ran down then had to mate into a rubber fitting to get it in the apillar frame. you should be able to see it from under the driver's side dash if you look up.

i started some fill and sanding on the trunk side - i know that i need to do the entire frame, the top will be tomorrow night. this is time consuming working inside the trunk and trying to keep everything clean. i masked off and had to completely vacuum and clean since i'm driving this to work tomorrow. i'm focusing on the trunk side because i want to make a baffle and get a sub playing before i finish the cabin side. i'm concerned about how much the front board has coupled the frame to the car. while sanding i noticed that the middle of the opening excited the floor of the vehicle quite well. that was the only spot that did that, and since it's right over the fuel pump, my only option is to better secure the bottom to the vehicle, on either side of the fuel pump. so i'm curious if that resonant frequency is above or below my intended sub crossover point. so i'm going to make a smooth surface on the trunk side so the sub wall will make a nice seal. 

the first couple of layers are down, and have been filed and lightly sanded to reveal places that need more fill. i'll paint it black to identify low spots once the majority of it is nicely covered.









this is the fill piece i'm test fitting. it will screw down to the mounting boards you see in the above pic, and it slides under the frame by about 3/4". i've also thought about not carpeting this now and glassing it to the frame and vehicle as well. we'll see...









... and yes, i did keep track of my mounting holes, i'll need to drill them back out, for now they are just smaller.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I did a few more layers of body filler on the trunk side of the baffle - on the top, more on the sides, etc. i sanded the hell out of it to get it mostly smooth - then i decided to just deaden the fawking thing anyway - so little imperfections were pointless to fix. i'll use trusty closed cell foam sandwiched between teh baffle and the frame to create my air-tight seal. 

Raammat BXT II on the baffle:


















carpet on the baffle and surrounding area


















carpet on the factory supports (they will remain for additional strength


















trunk side (the factory panels will be replaced sometime in the near future









I have my back seat again! And the view from inside is nice


















the first baffle to accept two OZ-300H 12" subs is shown here, but as i'm typing this, the first coat of resin is curing... all holes drilled, t-nuts added, etc. But this is the pattern:









The subs will be mounted with the magnets on the cabin side - for two reasons. 1. i love the look of the cones in the trunk - it's just classic. 2. it saves more space that way, and i also like the look of the magnets - but only when i fold the seat down.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I love it when a project comes together.

baffle coated in resin, ready to carpet.:









10-24 t-nuts for the dub mounting


















closed cell foam around the opening for the IB wall









the 1/4-20 mounting bolts, need the length for the multiple 3/4" MDF layers and foam and fiberglass, and filler, and deadener, and carpet...









waffle grills are ugly - but functional. i need some nice grills










this turned out much better than expected (dispite being made from many pieces of carpet...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

making the sub speaker cables:

solder is your friend









heat shrink is your friend









split loom is also your friend




























secured to the subs


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the trunk needs some final trim panel fabrication, but it's fully functional and sounds great. and you can tell i have a lot of carpet seams, and just pieces covering seams and wires. the final result will have a minimum number of seams and look much nicer than this. RTA analysis to follow:










the false floor doesn't fit as i want anymore (too deep), i'll need to make a new one









i also need to re-run the RCA's after I make custom ones. I may relocate the 3300c and H701 to the passenger side, allowing for a spare tire again. if that happens, i'll just fabricate both amp mounts from scratch so i have better access to the tail lights (a bit cramped now)





































i also need to carpet the back of the seat now... two different colors and the factory looks like crap.

I need to paint the bolt heads black so they blend in.

i will also carpet the trunk lid and the bottom of the rear deck.

if anyone has a grill suggestion, post a pic or link


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

if you're worried about carpet matching, then surely you're worried about those screws and the fact that you can see the woofers, right?
if not, then ignore the following...

why not make a trim piece and cover with carpet so the subs/wall is hidden? Simple enough to do; make a trim ring the same shape as the baffle, maybe about 1/4" wide, cover it with the same carpet you've been using, and then attach it to your wall via a couple screws. 

$.02


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

WHOLLY MOLLY!!

Talk about getting stuck into it! nice progress. I actually really like this... hmm, might have to think about my IB config and change it to TB (that is trunk baffle )


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## Mako312 (May 10, 2010)

I like all the stealth.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> if you're worried about carpet matching, then surely you're worried about those screws and the fact that you can see the woofers, right?
> if not, then ignore the following...
> 
> why not make a trim piece and cover with carpet so the subs/wall is hidden? Simple enough to do; make a trim ring the same shape as the baffle, maybe about 1/4" wide, cover it with the same carpet you've been using, and then attach it to your wall via a couple screws.
> ...


i have done that exact same thing in the past, and i really liked it. i will most likely do that again when I remake the sides. I would prefer that nothing is visible, then i can just use the waffle grills behind carpet...

previously:



























this configuration was completed in August 2008. I did have my spare in this one, but I lost more trunk space (about 6" more). The gray vinyl baffle wasn't a tight seal, nor was the trunk panel. close, but not like it is now. and the previous configuration was AP/IB, but sounded ok. I tore everything out when I was going to sell the car in March 2009. Then I decided to keep it, and started from scratch - literally. 

I posted this just for reference for what I'd like for an end fit and finish again.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

That is looking kickass...and most of the trunk available too.

Great work!


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Those amps are exposed and not scratched up...don't cover the sweet subs with those grilles...leave em naked 

To fit the factory trunk trim pieces, I'm assuming you're going to cut the "fronts" off where they would normally pass into the cabin?

I *really *like the detachable baffle. Swap in a pair of 15s, or 3 10s, or whatever you want that day :laugh:


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

FYI - the waffle grills are not on right now because with them it looked like a 1990 install, not a 2010 install.  as you've noticed, i haven't scratched my xtant amps in the 6-10 years i've owned them. I don't damage audio equipment, in general. 

as for the trunk, i do drive "spirited" and rapid deceleration is not uncommon. i will need something to protect the subs, in general. I may add a lip to the trunk floor and some chrome bars or something. 

i was going to paint the bolt heads today, with black Testors model paint, but I can't find any small brushes. doh! 

so instead i'm making a new floor and side trim panels. 

the factory trunk panels have been cut up several times, and the backs covered with felt to keep them quiet. The driver's side panel is going bye-bye today. a small flat panel will be sufficient here. the passenger's side will remain for a while, until i relocate my 3300c and H701 to the passenger side.


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

That's an infinite baffle loading, correct?
Any reason why you didn't use aperiodic mats, if you dont mind my asking?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

not sure if it will help you, but I made a false panel with some perforated aluminum. This stuff is cheap, light, and strong as crap. Helps protects my subs from stuff in the trunk.

I bought mine from an ebay store. They don't seem to have any. 

Not sure that's the route you want to go, but it's a thought. 


PS: I agree with your sentiment about the black grilles. I remember I had a pair from circuit city back in the day.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

correct, this is an IB installation, with OZ-300H subs - made specifically for IB. it performs VERY well.

i could go with the standard black mesh:









or go with some bar grills (black or chrome)


















i'm really liking the black chrome bars, i may just order them to try out. for $10 ea. it's pretty cheap...
my problem is I can't place an order at parts express without spending $100 stocking my mobile install kit with more connectors, terminals, etc.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

made a new floor out of 1/2" MDF, then coated it in resin to help waterproof it


















and i painted the bolt heads black - using Testors Black paint









and i noticed i can't use the black bar grills, unless i orient them at an angle due to the close spacing of the subs. i'll probably just have to make something custom...


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

towel rails?


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## mathematics (May 11, 2009)

great work. i like the attention to detail =)


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> towel rails?


That would work pretty well. OR you can get curved 
shower certain rod and cut it into a few pieces? That
way it wouldn't just be a flat looking bar? OR, you can
buy aluminum rod at HomeDeposit and use a die set to
cut thread in them, get some DupliCOLOR to match 
your cars paint and mist them.... 

Lots of ways to make a bar grill like that and would look
better IMHO, and not look so 'off the shelf'

keep up the good work

Curved 78 to 84-inch Shower Curtain Rod | Overstock.com !


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I like the shower/towel rod idea guys. I think I could make that look pretty good. 
rods, and made them different lengths (two short, two medium, one long) to form an oval, they could frame the subs nicely while not hiding the bolts. I do want the bolts accessible and visible since the main reason they are there is for functionality. I do expect to remove this as needed for trips to the hardware store. 


After listening to the OZ-300H's for the past week or so, i'm very pleased. I have never had such dynamics and impact. I have never felt a controlled kick drum over such a broad range of music. They preform much better than the previous IB/AP, and worlds better than any box-in-the-trunk. I haven't dialed them in to the front stage yet, oddly enough they are still in the break-in stage. A few days before I put them in the baffle I tried them mounted in a dual 2 cu. ft. sealed box. They do MUCH better IB, as expected. But they were BNIB so this is the first time they've been installed. I am being careful with them, a decade of storage was not kind to the surrounds. If only OZ had better packaging standards back then.

The wall is holding up - it's just stupid solid. I don't have any noticeable resonances in the playback range, but a sine sweep and RTA is upcoming. No rattles, no buzzes, it's pretty awesome. 

And with the weight being moved to between the strut towers, my car sits level again! I essentially stiffened my rear suspension and body in the process.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i finally rebuilt the flush covers around my side amps, this was a long time coming. 

i haven't made any sub grills yet, still rockin' the 80's waffle grills. they protect the subs, that's the #1 goal. cosmetics will come over time.





























i also tossed in some rear speakers, re-deadened the rear deck and resealed them. the speakers are in a small sealed cavity. nothing special, i'm trying to decide if i like them like this, or if i need to rebuild the entire rear deck (likely). they are ran off the center output on the H701, 3CH PCM, bandpassed, and delayed. they did help push the sound stage out more and increased some overall definition. if i get a config i like i'll upgrade the drivers. 



















i also installed a new pin switch and two white LED strips for trunk lighting. they work well.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

some recent rear door deadening for road noise reduction (sealing door). each door took about 20 minutes. I used Raammat BXT on them. no speakers in the rear doors.









driver side



















split loom to let cables pass through


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

This is looking really good! The holes in the doors did you put something like
a wood product over the hole first or just cover it with the Raammat? If you
just went over it with Raammat PLEASE let me know how it does. I have a
similar situation, I've been wondering about just leaving out wood/metal and
just peel and stick.

MAN, I cant tell you HOW I wish I could listen to the OZ gear I've got stashed!
I envy you!! On a sep note, if you come across some 4's and tweeter PLEASE
for a good price send me a PM.

CHEERS AND CONGRATS ON THE PROGRESS!


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

for the rear doors i didn't put a rigid material over the holes for two reasons:

1. transmission loss increases if the material can flex
2. no speakers in the door to pressurize the cavity

if you have speakers in your door, you should use a rigid material to cover the door holes. door flex causes cancellation and affects midbass response. you can buy sheets of aluminum in various sizes - use those, cut to shape, then covered with deadener on both sides. finally, secure with self-tapping sheet metal screws. 

if you use wood it should be coated in resin or deadener so it cannot get wet.


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## cirodias (Dec 12, 2008)

Nice build!

Nice equips!

Congratz


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

wow. it's been a while since i updated this!

trunk looks like this with some mats down on the false floor (to keep the carpet clean)


















I buy solid wooden spheres ($1.50) - like knobs or post tops, at my local Hobby Lobby. i hollow out a cylinder, (using Forstner bits, hole saws, dremel, etc.), drill a hole for threaded rod, and then... i'm not sure where to go next for a nice finish. 

tools i use
2









i used double-sided foam tape to hold the sphere in the vice without making marks. works well.
3









I had to dremel sand the opening a bit larger in order to fit. the Forstner bit was either too small or too large. 
4









rods screwed in
5









wires soldered on tweeters
6









going with hammered silver paint (to match my painted interior)
7









painted and waiting (pic taken 2 hours ago)
8









i haven't decided how best to finish off the mount. there is a gap around the tweeter face due to it's construction. the widest flange is in the middle. so i need something to create a smooth transition. and then the grill - the Vifa doesn't have one. i have one, but it's larger than necessary.

I used some rope caulk to temporarily hold the tweeters in place and also hold the grill on. i want to test before i make these permanant. 

i'm also taking a different approach. instead of having the grill flush with the sphere, i have the actual tweeter cone flush and the grill protrudes - should be better, we'll see.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

These vifa are tough since you have to make your own grill. normal tweeters are MUCH easier to finish off. 

1









2









3









4









5









6









7









not bad, i want to get them finished a bit better
8











So, now you are up to speed with this 6 year build and its many variations. Everything is subject to change and new front speaker locations are planned next; starting with new doors.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

in the past two years i have tried 4 different midbass drivers, 5 different midrange, and 4 different tweeters.

i liked the OZ Audio drivers, but i was persuaded to sell. right now, I am using the following 4 ohm drivers (about $160 in drivers):

Vifa OT19NC00









Dayton Reference RS-100









Silver Flute W17RC38-04










reasons:
I've ran the Vifa ring radiator back when i ran the Alpine SPX-177R. they are better in spheres.

I like Dayton audio drivers and i like a dedicated full range (midrange) in the kicks. i will locate these more on axis (and play with aiming) and may run with just a high pass. they are good to 10kHz on-axis but with my current install they roll off above 3kHz so i don't have a low pass filter on them. we'll see how they blend with the tweeters when on-axis. right now, you cannot locate them - everything is above the dash.

I heard great things about the Silver Flute drivers in a midbass application - provided they are well installed. After a few months with them, i am happy.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

putting the silver flute 6.5" midbass in the doors required cutting metal, fabricating a new mount to make room for the massive basket/magnet, and cutting the door panel. next is making a new door panel grille to retain a factory look. 

previous mount:









that baffle was restricting rear airflow, and didn't allow for deeper woofers. this is for midbass - so size matters.

removed the speaker baffle in the doors. removing the BXT was time consuming, luckily it was cold. i have 3-4 layers around teh speakers. 

in order to lower the woofer so it didn't interfere with the panel seam, i had to remove metal.









used 3/4" birch for the base and 1/2" MDF for the ring. 

but you have to start somewhere, and that's with mockups. i previously removed the stock grill.









with ring to see future panel conflicts. depth required the door panel to be modified.


















test fit









drilling holes









hurricane nuts 8-32









driver test fit


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

panel test fit, had to make a few passes to get the clearance right, hence the odd shape on the one side. had door panel seam conflicts









some of these are with my camera phone, hence any blurry pics









coated in resin


















passenger side bolted in place, green glue damping compound, Raammat BXT for seals









green glue on ring too









mounted/wired


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the Green Glue was quite runny on this hot day. 









used closed cell foam for my rain barrier ring inside the door. this is an application of Green Glue on the back of the mounting ring. 









driver side is the same as passenger



























used a dremel with a cutting wheel for the first pass on the door panel. final cutting may be larger just for consistency of lines... we'll see. for now, i can take my 700 mile trip with new speakers to listen to


















how the amps are currently wired








An Alpine DRE-A200 providing an extra active crossover split between mids and tweeters. 



start to finish, the door pics you see were done in a weekend while also spending 8 hours wiring a boat, playing with the kids, and hanging with friends. i think it was about 7 hours of work total.

custom grills that look as OEM as possible are for another day. i have grills for them, not pictured.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

this is something i haven't seen in a build log yet: pvc encased fiberglass absorption in car doors (but i haven't seen everything anyone's done). i've seen people use foams or polyfill but those have issues. foams aren't absorptive enough (especially if they are closed cell). polyfill isn't absorptive much as-is. the doors get wet so any fibrous material will hold water = mold.

in architectural acoustics, we use pvc encased fiberglass batt to cheaply add a lot of absorption to a room. 

i've had this idea for a while, finally felt like doing it.

i started with 1 mil PVC sheeting - it is normally used as a drop cloth for painting. it was stupid cheap, like $3 for a roll. i have some fiberglass batt insulation as well. fiberglass batt is one of the absolute best materials for sound absorption. just about anything else performs worse. the concern is that you don't want it getting wet. 

i measured my doors, they have two metal tubes that provide structural strength. i will fit absorption between these. if i had 2" thick bags, they wouldn't interfere with the window. my doors were already sealed up, luckily i used several smaller panels to cover the gap, so i just cut and peeled one of them back:










i needed 6" tall, 30" long, and 2" thick bags. i cut out 18" tall by 33" long sheets of PVC.









i wrapped and compressed it for covering. i used 3M Duct Packing Tape to create the seal.









i made three of them for the passenger door









then i placed them and used aluminum foil tape to hold them in place between the bars











the window guide came down in the middle. this was a snag/tear possibility. so i covered that portion with aluminum foil tape to protect it.


















all done, 100% coverage along the entire outer door skin, with a fourth smaller bag stuffed up near the hinge airspace









closed up with a few layers









driver mounted.









before i do the driver's side i'll use the RTA and 1/24th oct resolution to measure drivers (untreated) vs. passenger (treated). my measurement locations, driver settings, etc. will be equivalent enough to allow for an accurate comparison. the goal with this is to improve midrange response as well as absorb a nasty 125Hz (ish) spike. i hope to test tonight, then do the driver's door.

if all goes as planned, i will recommend this for anyone sealing up their door. this was easy to do, took about 5 minutes per bag an would be very easy to do before the door is sealed if you're deadening it anyway. i expect this to greatly improve response for the door woofers.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

any comments are welcome. i installed the encased fiberglass bags this afternoon, with interruptions, probably 1.5 hours of work - most of that was opening and re-sealing the doors.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Installs looking good.

I was curious about those Silver Flute midbass drivers but had questions because of the low price and iffy specs reported from different users.

Keep us posted on the performance of those Silver Flutes and especially if they can take *BIG* power.

I like midbass drivers to be able to soak up some power.;D 

I like your PVC idea....I've tried it with my IDQ8's years ago but they ended up performing better in a sealed enclosure so the semi-aperiodic alignment was tossed.


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## rimshot (May 17, 2005)

this is a great install


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## bfd1210 (Sep 26, 2011)

nice


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

How do the fiberglass batts perform? I didn't realize they would work well being covered with the PVC sheeting...I was under the impression that the fb batting would have to be "exposed" to the surrounding airspace in order to perform well. Is that not the case...do the sound waves penetrate the PVC and become trapped or absorbed in the fb batting?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the only difference between non-perforated pvc encased batt and open batt is high frequency attenuation (above 3kHz) which we don't care about in a door. there is no difference between perforated pvc encased batt and open batt FYI)

midrange and midbass frequencies will pass right through 1mil plastic. 

here are some links to pvc encased fiberglass batt:
CMA


after having one door treated for the past few days, and after some RTA testing, i can say that response is smoother and low frequency response was increased with the treated door. i haven't processed all of the measurements yet (I took about 34 measurements with True RTA). I used two mics, one at passenger and one at driver, then alternated L and R mic measurements for each speaker, then combinations of speakers (my typical process when RTA'ing my car). I used combinations of full range pink noise and band limited pink noise. i also played with crossover settings.

I think I'm getting some phase interference from the door pocket, and i had some odd nulls that i haven't had time to investigate. I don't believe they are "real". Response was quite different when comparing near vs. far (due to off-axis response). 

I am happy enough that I will treat the other door, then redo measurements with both doors treated (in a few weeks).

I did verify that I need to move my 4" mids more on-axis in the kicks. So that will also happen soon (=months).

I won't have my car for the next two weeks (vacation), so after that time i'll share measurements and updated results of testing. 

i also noticed that i appears the 9887 crossovers function differently than I thought. With 18dB/oct at 63Hz i measured being 18dB down at 63Hz, not a roll off starting at 63Hz. This is a HUGE deal as it greatly affects crossover points. i verified this with other crossover points/slopes on the other drivers and saw the same thing. 

I'll probably do a separate write-up of crossover settings with the 9887 using RTA measurements of each driver than combined driver.


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## travicles (Oct 15, 2009)

keep_hope_alive said:


> i also noticed that i appears the 9887 crossovers function differently than I thought. With 18dB/oct at 63Hz i measured being 18dB down at 63Hz, not a roll off starting at 63Hz. This is a HUGE deal as it greatly affects crossover points. i verified this with other crossover points/slopes on the other drivers and saw the same thing.


WOW, this is kind of crazy. Now you got me wondering if my headunit does the same thing. You're not exaggerating when you say it's a HUGE deal.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

travicles said:


> WOW, this is kind of crazy. Now you got me wondering if my headunit does the same thing. You're not exaggerating when you say it's a HUGE deal.


i may just eliminate the car from the equation and power a driver in a 4x8 sheet of plywood, get it to give me a flat response, then play with crossovers to eliminate the car from the equation. i'll verify this.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Why not just run line in to the pc RTA to really eliminate any variables?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Why not just run line in to the pc RTA to really eliminate any variables?


genius. 

yep, i'll do that. i have the Sound Devices USBPre so that is not a problem.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

just be careful to not fry the sound card by feeding too much voltage. i've done that before because I - like an idiot - didn't connect the voltage divider I built specifically for the task to the leads. *smacks forehead*


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> just be careful to not fry the sound card by feeding too much voltage. i've done that before because I - like an idiot - didn't connect the voltage divider I built specifically for the task to the leads. *smacks forehead*


no worries. RCA out of HU to Sound Devices USB Pre
The USBPre Microphone Interface for Computer Audio | Sound Devices, LLC

I'm testing the HU crossovers, not the amps.

if i ran amplified speaker out i would have to introduce a voltage divider.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Didn't bother to check what you were using for the input. Most folks use a standard sound card with an input tolerance of less than a couple volts maximum. A headunit would easily fry that. I did it with a h701 output running sine waves in to a built in laptop line in. Forgot to connect the divider network and fried the sound card. That's why I suggested it.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Didn't bother to check what you were using for the input. Most folks use a standard sound card with an input tolerance of less than a couple volts maximum. A headunit would easily fry that. I did it with a h701 output running sine waves in to a built in laptop line in. Forgot to connect the divider network and fried the sound card. That's why I suggested it.



it's good you did for anyone reading this. it never hurts to provide lessons learned.

i'll do this when i get back from vacation in a week. i'll evaluate crossover slopes and knees.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Any updates?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Haven't touched it, only had the car for 3 days since returning from vacation and spent the past evenings with some friends visiting from out of town. On the to-do list. Won't take much time. Soon.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Took the measurements tonight, interesting results. Will share tomorrow!


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Nice. Looking forward to the results.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Data was taken by using the SoundDevices USBPre line level RCA input from the Alpine CDA-9887 output directly. Levels are relative. Autosound 2000 Track 18 (un-correlated pink noise) was used as the source.


I am using the Alpine DRE-A200 as a crossover between my tweets and mids off the Front outputs on the 9887. you can see the 12dB/oct slope of that crossover. This is what i've been listening to, set by ear. It is close to what I expected, though i'm more then 3dB down at the xover points.











This comparision is using a 1kHz HPF crossover point, but varying the slope. You can see that we indeed drop at 1kHz, we also see that 24dB/oct isn't much different from 18dB/oct (other than the phase shift associated with it - not seen here)









I have more graphs and more tests I can run.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Didn't bother to check what you were using for the input. Most folks use a standard sound card with an input tolerance of less than a couple volts maximum. A headunit would easily fry that. I did it with a h701 output running sine waves in to a built in laptop line in. Forgot to connect the divider network and fried the sound card. That's why I suggested it.


i did verify the SoundDevicesUSBpre will accept 2.0V RMS with 110k ohm unbalanced on the Tape in (RCA). And it accepts 12.3V RMS with 65k ohm balanced on the DI/Line inputs (1/4").
http://www.sounddevices.com/download/guides/usbpre_en.pdf
If you have $600 to spend on an external USB-powered audio interface, this one is excellent. They have a newer version as well. We went with it because it can do 10mA on 48V phantom power (which our Earthworks M50 required) and it is flat down to 10Hz (same as the M50).

My next goal is to take measurements from the amplified outputs to see the entire signal chain before the speakers. I'll try to do this this weekend. I have a collection of 25W resistors to make load banks, which i could use to load the amp while measuring it... i may also build a voltage divider so i can observe my max listening volume (which is max HU volume). I'll probably use the DI/Line input for this.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

put this in the driver door day (pass door was done previously)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

keep_hope_alive said:


> Data was taken by using the SoundDevices USBPre line level RCA input from the Alpine CDA-9887 output directly. Levels are relative. Autosound 2000 Track 18 (un-correlated pink noise) was used as the source.
> 
> 
> I am using the Alpine DRE-A200 as a crossover between my tweets and mids off the Front outputs on the 9887. you can see the 12dB/oct slope of that crossover. This is what i've been listening to, set by ear. It is close to what I expected, though i'm more then 3dB down at the xover points.
> ...


That's pretty interesting... I wonder why that is. I would typically really make sure it's not the measurement gear but your settings look right to me. I can't think of anything else it could be.

Odd.

but good info.

thanks.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> That's pretty interesting... I wonder why that is. I would typically really make sure it's not the measurement gear but your settings look right to me. I can't think of anything else it could be.
> 
> Odd.
> 
> ...


each of the HPF measurements were taken in succession - nothing was changed between them, or turned off, disconnected, etc. 

i figure i can do a few more, to further investigate 18dB/oct vs 24dB/oct.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

redid the testing. i saw a more clear difference (expected) with 24dB/oct. There is the same consistent drop at the crossover frequency (6 and 12 are the same, 18 and 24 are the same at the xover point). There must have been some noise in the system that muddied the previous test. Certainly, when choosing crossover slopes and points, the drop at the crossover point should be taken into consideration - resulting in some overlap with the crossover points.

4kHz crossover point, slope varies 6 to 24dB/oct. Front output of 9887









1kHz crossover point, slope varies 6 to 24dB/oct. Front output of 9887









200Hz crossover point, slope varies 6 to 24dB/oct. Rear output of 9887









50Hz HPF, 250Hz LPF, slope varies from Full to 6, 12, 18 & 24dB/oct. Rear output of 9887









Then i played with the mic for a bit. Played with crossover settings. I had the laptop in the passenger seat, mic at my head (moving around to average out peaks/valleys). This is the front stage only (no sub). Crossover points are: 
Midbass: no HPF (Full), 315Hz LPF 18dB/oct
Mid: 250Hz HPF 18dB/oct, 3.5kHz LPF 12dB/oct
Tweet: 3.5kHz HPF 12dB/oct
One line is measured 1/24th oct, the other line is a smoothed version of that line.









naturally, with the subs the low end is (much) higher, but I wasn't running the sub during the RTA testing today and was more interested in midbass response. EQ is flat right now. T/A was active and at my seat.


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## pushin8 (Sep 26, 2006)

Random question; what ground block is this? tia


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Honestly, no clue who makes it. Unlabeled. I got it in a grab box of stuff from a forum member. Works well.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

keep_hope_alive said:


> this is something i haven't seen in a build log yet: pvc encased fiberglass absorption in car doors (but i haven't seen everything anyone's done). i've seen people use foams or polyfill but those have issues. foams aren't absorptive enough (especially if they are closed cell). polyfill isn't absorptive much as-is. the doors get wet so any fibrous material will hold water = mold.
> 
> in architectural acoustics, we use pvc encased fiberglass batt to cheaply add a lot of absorption to a room.
> 
> ...


I think I understand how the batt insulation absorbs sound but don't understand how the bag will allow this to happen. Intuitively you need the trapped air inside of the fiberglass to do the sound absorption. The bag would stop this (at least in my mind that's how it's working) :blush:
Would you mind explaining?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for the interest.

You need to factor transmission loss of 1 mil PVC into the concept. Sound passes right through that thin plastic for frequencies below about 4kHz. For all intensive purposes,that 1 mil plastic is acoustically invisible to sound emitted by that woofer. We use the same concept in architectural acoustics, and there are commercial products made with published absorption coefficients.

Also note: It's not the depth of the fiberglass that helps with midbass absorption but the length. You can figure that you need 1/4 wavelength dimensions of absorption to be effective at that frequency


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

In addition, there are also some membrane absorption concepts that can improve the acoustical performance of the bags.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

pushin8 said:


> Random question; what ground block is this? tia



It's pretty close to the Hooker Audio one that has 5 8ga out and 3 bolts for input..


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## ampaholic (May 9, 2010)

keep_hope_alive said:


> Thanks for the interest.
> 
> You need to factor transmission loss of 1 mil PVC into the concept. Sound passes right through that thin plastic for frequencies below about 4kHz. For all intensive purposes,that 1 mil plastic is acoustically invisible to sound emitted by that woofer. We use the same concept in architectural acoustics, and there are commercial products made with published absorption coefficients.
> 
> Also note: It's not the depth of the fiberglass that helps with midbass absorption but the length. You can figure that you need 1/4 wavelength dimensions of absorption to be effective at that frequency


I am lapping up your install wisdom!

Can you expound on the bag - specifically would thicker PVC or PE alter the frequencies that would not see the bag?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

ampaholic said:


> I am lapping up your install wisdom!
> 
> Can you expound on the bag - specifically would thicker PVC or PE alter the frequencies that would not see the bag?


Yes, thicker PVC would reduce the effectiveness of the fiberglass, meaning the cutoff between absorption and reflection would happen at a lower frequency. 

Ideally, the PVC would be perforated but when moisture is a concern, we keep it sealed. 

I use this concept often in acoustics, when the client needs to lower reverberation time of a space with an exposed structure, but they don't want to pay for aesthetically pleasing treatments. You can get PVC encased fiberglass in a variety of thicknesses and fabrics, in banners or long baffles.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

CMA

This is an example


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## ampaholic (May 9, 2010)

keep_hope_alive said:


> Yes, thicker PVC would reduce the effectiveness of the fiberglass, meaning the cutoff between absorption and reflection would happen at a lower frequency.
> 
> Ideally, the PVC would be perforated but when moisture is a concern, we keep it sealed.
> 
> I use this concept often in acoustics, when the client needs to lower reverberation time of a space with an exposed structure, but they don't want to pay for aesthetically pleasing treatments. You can get PVC encased fiberglass in a variety of thicknesses and fabrics, in banners or long baffles.


Thanks for your reply.

I am just a hobbyist at acoustics .... but

The thought that hit me in the side of my brain when I saw your post about the PVC wrapped FG is this:

In an aperiodic enclosure what would you think of a large PVC wrapped vent to relieve the sound wave back pressure and a much smaller open vent to relieve the psi build up?

In an aperiodic enclosure you really have 2 components to "vent" 1st is the air displacement caused by the woofers cone movement 2nd is the sound wave which is of course also caused by the woofers cone movement - but at a different "pace" than the pure air volume displacement.

When tuning a traditional port there is a complex time relationship between the air movement through the port and the sound movement through it causing much of the tuning "mud" (for lack of a better word).


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## ampaholic (May 9, 2010)

Notloudenuf said:


> I think I understand how the batt insulation absorbs sound but don't understand how the bag will allow this to happen. Intuitively you need the trapped air inside of the fiberglass to do the sound absorption. The bag would stop this (at least in my mind that's how it's working) :blush:
> Would you mind explaining?


What the PVC wrapped FG attenuates (reduces) is the propagation of the sound waves - same principle as a sheet rock wall reducing the propagation of sound from apt to apt seen here.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

thanks for the replies. i've been out of town, and your post on enclosures deserve some time, i'll get to that in a day or two. i have some motorhome wiring to do, and some amp diagnostic tests on my plate.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

ampaholic said:


> What the PVC wrapped FG attenuates (reduces) is the propagation of the sound waves - same principle as a sheet rock wall reducing the propagation of sound from apt to apt seen here.


the concept of absorption isn't the same as transmission loss, but similar to what happens to airborne sound inside the wall cavity and the resulting increase in TL/STC as you add fiberglass batt to the wall cavity.

note that the dominating path for noise transfer through any wall assembly is structural (rigid contact surface area). of course, once installed, flanking paths and openings (doors/windows) are usually dominating paths that affect ASTC.

of an additional note (unrelated to car audio but related to STC), we've seen a lot of testing that reveals that ASTC 55+ isn't attainable without structural breaks in the floor slab (and ceiling system). we locate these breaks (same as expansion joints) between the two walls inside the gap (since they have separate, isolated track/headers anyway).

when reviewing my method of pvc encased absorption in the door cavity, i think it's useful to look at it in terms of absorption coefficients - how much sound is reflected off the surface with and without the presence of absorption. of course, you need to take absorption coefficients measured using ASTM mounting method "A" (directly to wall) and not E-400. the latter will exaggerate the low frequency absorption that happens when you provide airspace behind the absorption.

this is an excellent reference summarizing absorption. pay specific attention to the last two paragraphs, where it discusses low frequency absorption of non-normal incident waves - this is why the length of my absorbers greatly improves low frequency absorption.

http://www.auralex.com/auralex_acoustics_faqs/faqs.asp?Q=10


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## metalball (Sep 8, 2010)

Good looking install.


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

Did you ever finish the grills? How are the midbasses working?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Many changes since. I should update this. Running German Maestro Status 2-way active currently.

MAF and CA forums have up to date builds.

Rich
Acoustics Engineer & Electrical Engineer


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

keep_hope_alive said:


> MAF and CA forums have up to date builds.


Links? Sorry, I don't know those forums.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

honfatboy said:


> Links? Sorry, I don't know those forums.


http://mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?505-KHA-2001-Accord-EX-V6-Build-Log

I will update this forum in a few weeks

Rich
Acoustics Engineer & Electrical Engineer


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

Fascinating...thanks!


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## MinnesotaStateUniversity (Sep 12, 2012)

keep_hope_alive said:


> KHA 2001 Accord EX V6 Build Log
> 
> I will update this forum in a few weeks
> 
> ...


Crazy build thread!!!

I think you'll enjoy my sig

another ee ...student


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

man, no install posts for a year? looks like i haven't been too loyal to DIYMA. ah well. 

i never stop messing with the car. once i finish something, i do something different. 

so i'll continue with the past year, and then discuss what's next...

after filling the doors with 1mil PVC encased fiberglass batt...









i reinstalled the Silver Flute midbass on Green Glue damped mounting rings









i decided to dress up the door woofers by putting some vinyl around them. started by taking a cutting wheel on a dremel and improving on the cuts i made previously.










did the passenger side, wasn't happy with the vinyl. did the driver side, added foam behind the vinyl to flush up with the door panel. still wasn't happy. it was better, but not what i really wanted.




























you can see that while the foam keeps the vinyl tight, it also bulges.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

but it looked like shyt. so around midnight that night i decided to take a 10" woofer grill and make a new door panel grill. 

i've had this idea in my head for a long time, but i figured i would need a 12" grill in order to cover the way i wanted. turns out, a 10" grill was just perfect if i covered it with something.

i began by cutting and bending, test fitting, cutting and bending some more, test fitting some more, etc.









you can see that the door panels were cut in order to make room for the lowered/deeper woofers









so i wanted the grill to come behind the pocket, but then follow the contour of the factory opening. the front corner would not be covered due to the smaller grill size. 









i was going to use grill cloth, but that would be too thin and show the edges and frame of the grill. a round hole expanded metal grill could be done to look nice and more polished (in the future maybe). i decided to use open weave carpet. having the color different is fine, i have silver accents in the interior. 









i trimmed some more, fitted some more, and got the grills to secure to the door panel. then i used trusty aluminum foil tape to secure the carpet. both have some of the rubber grill edging where it would contact the vinyl.









the result was pretty much what i wanted to achieve (at 2am)


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the result around 2am




































driver side




























the doors stayed like that for a year without any issues. but the carpet always bugged me... i've known that something nicer needed to be done. and hopefully, a year later, something better will happen


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

some measurements running a 2-way front. turned off the RS100 mids and ran the Silver Flute's up to 4kHz.










has a smooth slope, which i like. i still have decent high frequency hearing. this is without any EQ. 

top two lines are Lz max for a few Beastie Boys tracks. overall level (un-weighted) was around 130 dB - the top end of my listening volume. 

bottom 3 are pink noise with and without subs. i also have two volume levels shown so linearity is evident.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

then i was asked to test a Rockford 800a2 for a friend. i knew i'd have a few months so i integrated it into the trunk in place of the xtant 3300c. 

I also added some Maxwell BCAP3000's to the trunk



























the baffle for the sub as moving under high volumes - and causing a drum head effect. 

so i thickened the baffle to 2-1/4" thick. it nests into the opening. i used Green Glue damping adhesive between each layer


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

mounted the ultra caps vertically under the amp









some self-fusing silicone for insurance if something dropped on top of them









covered









made a new beauty panel









carpeted









made a new floor transition since the previous floor was raised due to the full size spare









glued, screwed, and carpeted









done


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

oh, and the new front speakers. 
German Maestro Status SV6509























































Got a new head unit to replace the 9887 that moved to the wife's car: 
Alpine CDE-HD149BT. Their best single DIN today.

Host of features with excellent processing built-in.
Paired with my Droid Razr Maxx very well via BT. Pandora, Audio, Phone all excellent.

The BioLite display is awesome this time, very legible. 





































mic location


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

while it seems counter-intuitive to use BT or USB in an SQ build, there is something to be said for convenience. 

the downside is that with the new deck you lose 3-way active through the HU. but given the crossover issues (see previous posts) with the 9887 i'm not that disappointed having to go back to analog crossovers. 

the xtant 403a amps were using the crossover cards. but adjusting crossovers is now a PITA. 

so it's time for a change. i finally get to a finished trunk and i'm going to start over. if there was a Car Audio Anonymous group i would be in it.

the Maestro Status speakers are good. but cannot be ran the way i have them (off-axis and 4-5kHz crossover point). as expected, the woofers roll off around 2-3kHz and I get a null. I don't like the tweeters playing below 5kHz but really do like them above that. so the solution is to integrate a midrange back into the system, go back to 3-way front stage ran active. I could get away with doing that using the xtant amps and two MiniDSP kits. but after running xtant for 13 years, it's time for a change... something older.

I picked up mint condition Alpine MRV-F405, MRV-F505, and MRV-1005 to handle mids/highs, midbass, and sub, respectively. an Alpine DRE-A200 will round out the set making an OS 1996 rig. (I know a MRV-1505 would be a better choice, and I know the 1005 isn't made in Japan). I also have a Phoenix Gold ZPA 0.3 but I am saving that for a buddy with four of the PG SX 12's (mint condition) I also picked up recently. He'll do an old school PG build eventually.

My previous trunk panels were 3/4" MDF. a lot of weight was added to the trunk. New panels will be birch plywood. my previous beauty panels were carpeted for convenience and i used loose carpet to contour and make some seams. the Challenger build by Fishman gave me inspiration to get off my butt and make proper beauty panels. It won't be as good as that build, but i'm not that good of a fabricator. 

and while the Status speakers are good, I think the Hertz Mille speakers are better. They will be a future upgrade. 

The source unit is solid. While not as good as some of the high-end Clarion DRZ or McIntosh heads, I am happy with it. I am fairly loyal to Alpine (which should be obvious) and I appreciate their attention to detail with menu structure and overall head unit interface design. I also appreciate having 100% volume range being usable. All of my MRV amps are designed for Alpine's 4V output (defeats the need for gain adjustment).


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2013)

WOW!! This build is NIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!! Hey keep_hope_alive, was all that deadening in your trunk and the rear seat pass through difficult to do? I have the same car as you and want to eventually do an infinite baffle setup with the cones facing into the car (the magnets visible when you open the trunk). Was doing that whole project difficult? How much would you charge someone who brought their Accord to you to do the same work to their car (mostly the rear) as you did to yours?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

the IB wall was a lot more effort than sealing and deadener. the frame is the key to it's success.










two layers of 3/4" and fiberglass reinforcement helps stiffen the entire car









the deadening effort on the baffle was for good measure.









end result was nice for flexibility.









more recently i increased the baffle thickness to 2-1/4" with a single sub


















there is a solid 40 hours of work in that baffle. it's not feasible to do that for someones car. i do have friends cars that i work on, but it's a very long process that takes months to complete, a few evening hours at a time.

another intensive (100+ hr) build for a friend:
KHA 2005 Scion tC with Audison and Hertz


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

up next:


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Nice baffle.


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## [email protected] (Aug 4, 2013)

keep_hope_alive said:


> the IB wall was a lot more effort than sealing and deadener. the frame is the key to it's success.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Understood! Thanks for the ideas though! #thumbsup


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I have cleaned the F505 since this picture was taken. The F505 is the roughest of the bunch but was the hardest to find.



























so i removed everything from the trunk, pulled out the carpet, and began re-doing the wiring. for now, the head unit powers the doors and tweeters for some music in the interim. 

all speaker wire is being replaced, 8 channels. 4 left and 4 right. two to the dash for a tweeter and 2" mid. one to the kicks and one to the door. i may only run6 at a time, but will have control of that back at the amps. commercial grade speaker wire with a heavy duty jacket is being used. 

RCA's are nicer Monster Cable. a 4-ch and a 2-ch.

the two four channels are going on the driver's side. that way i can easily switch channels around as i see fit. the sub amp will be on the passenger side which gives options for amp size. 

power and ground distribution remains as-is. it was already what i needed. 

ultracapacitors are now on the driver's side. i removed the old amp mount and made a new one. this one is further recessed into the side. my goal is to gain more width to fit my rifle cases. sadly, the last configuration was too narrow for them.

my previous panels were 3/4" MDF. while sturdy they were very heavy. new panels are 3/4" birch ply. 
all mounts for amps and amp boards are with machine screws (8-32 for amps and 10-24 for panels). threaded inserts are used instead of t-nuts this time for a few reasons.










i started with a frame for the ultra caps that also acts as a mount for the lower amp. the frame is 2x4's on the top and bottom with 3/4" birch on the sides. 1/4" treated ply for a backing and bottom strip. the frame was ripped down to 2-3/4" wide to match the caps. 


















the F505 goes on the bottom because it won't fit on the top. extra work had to be done to make sure the amp heat sinks were clear. fans will be used on the heat sinks.









the F405 will go above.









more progress, less than i had hoped over the weekend but slow and steady...

top board ready with 10-24 inserts









top mounts secured in a few ways, angle brackets are just one way (it is sturdy)


















how they fit










i'm adding a relay behind the top mount that will act as a amp turn-on, and another that will act as a fan turn-on. given our winters, i'm not sure a fan is required all of the time (and I want the ability to turn them off in case they are audible). i will have temperature monitoring on one of the amps.[/QUOTE]


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Finally, got the Hertz Mille in. it's too late to really comment, other than i am exhausted and happy at the same time.





































the spheres were previously used in the Scion tC for testing, then in the floorstanding enclosures. i'll get the logos aligned next. They are currently aimed at the bottom of the opposite c-pillar.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

MLV day. interior has been out for a few weeks. time to ride in quiet.









laid the radiant barrier down first then the vinyl barrier on top. 




































i did remove the factory padding from the carpet to gain some thickness back. everything installed without any issues.





























also running an Ultra PRM-12 currently. Wired it in series on the MRV-1005. DCR is 6 ohms in series.










i need to redo the carpeting on the IB wall. i'm thinking either vinyl or painted.
i also need to redo the wiring for the coils, this was a 5 minute temporary wiring job.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i did get the amps wired up, but the F505 was just too big to go down low. 

speaker wires are routed up the wheel well inside and route behind the amp rack. RCA's for the driver's side come from the rear of the trunk and route around to the passenger side. Maximum signal separation was the goal with any crossings at 90 deg. angles. 

originally, i had all 8 speaker wire pairs (4 left and 4 right) routed to the driver's side with both 4 channel amps. I came to find that putting the larger MRV-F505 on the bottom didn't work out for cabling - the RCA connectors were too close to the wheel well for my comfort and everything was too tight. So I went with the original plan of the MRV-1005 on the bottom. Now I have 4 pairs routed to each side. Speaker wires are commercial grade for use in buildings and are shielded. They have a heavy duty jacket and no extra loom is required. I will end up with more zip ties when I reassemble. 









not done securing the wires that cross sides yet. I have large coils of wire up under the front mats right now. 



























in order to control fans separate from amps, i have a pair of relays wired to a terminal block. I previously ran CAT5 to the trunk for control of amps or fans. I have a meter set that includes VU meters, voltage, and amp temp. I am going to monitor the lower amp temp. During the winter, fans may be unnecessary, and for any judging I don't want the noise. But summers are just as hot as anywhere else and fans will be a good idea (three total to cover top and bottom heat sinks of both amps)


















i did decide to carpet the mounting boards once i finalized the size. 



















this time around i can actually get to the taillight bulbs and wires without removing an amp mounting board (the xtant board blocked it). I do need a mirror to adjust the amp settings on the side though, luckily that isn't something i will do often.

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there are a lot of wires coming through one spot there - all power or ground. I am not thrilled with how they are routed, i will need to make something to secure and fan them out - i'm thinking brackets. I have separate power and ground for both amps, the cap bank, and control/remote/fan/etc. I also have signal and power from the front coming through from under the IB wall between power and ground distribution.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Can you squeeze 18's in there?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

edzyy said:


> Can you squeeze 18's in there?


Ha! sure, if you are willing to cut into the rear deck some. they would be angled toward the sunroof and require fabrication of the rear deck and a new rear seat latch (or reinforce a strip across where the rear seats attach). 

i've planned it out but my IB wall frame is too rigid to make any larger subs worth the effort. 

my 2002 Camry may be a slightly better audio platform though, with huge holes in the doors stock for oversized 6x9 which would give options for driver mounting and aiming. i may build the Camry for a stock class SQ build soon. i just need to finish the Accord first.

tonight i am treating the rear doors to lower road noise through them. with the floors and front doors done so well, the rear doors are an obvious noise source.


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## Jagged Corn Flakes (Sep 10, 2013)

Just wondering. 

Why did you choose to run the Fosgate amp on the sub instead of finding another matching Alpine to keep the theme going?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Jagged Corn Flakes said:


> Just wondering.
> 
> Why did you choose to run the Fosgate amp on the sub instead of finding another matching Alpine to keep the theme going?


Fosgate amp is out. I gutted the trunk and started from scratch (minus the sub wall). Passenger side is empty. I believe in themes also. And having xtant and RF didn't look right to me.

MRV-F405 runs the MLK-165 active. 
MRV-1005 runs the sub (series coils, amp bridged)

The MRV-F505 is not installed yet. 
I would like to find a MRV-1505 to replace the 1005 and have all Japan made but that would be difficult to fit

Rich
Acoustics Engineer


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## moparman79 (Jan 31, 2008)

keep_hope_alive said:


> the IB wall was a lot more effort than sealing and deadener. the frame is the key to it's success.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another nice clean build, good job sir.


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## S.A.-K.I.D. (May 27, 2013)

Interesting build log you have. May I ask what you like & don't like about the ultra subs? Did some research on them & would like some more info. Such as weight, inductance, or just what you measured thats not given thru vertex audio site that would be of benefit to know. When you switched from a-12 to prm 12, was there a noticeable difference or was that just to try something new? I couldn' recall if you tried them sealed at all but running car IB(TB), did they drop of quickly towards midbass or did they have a decent extension? Last one, is one enough for you or would two give that extra dynamic headroom?

I'm a person whom prefers two-ways & a single sealed sub for my last few car audio set ups. Going IB(TB) will be my next & plan to use my 12w6v2. Figure it will at least give me double the displacement of my last audio system, which was a single sealed 10w6/10w3. Both first gen. Really preferred the 10w6 & realize I may not care for all these extremely low distortion subwoofers, give me some warmth. It's a car audio system, a very poor harsh acoustical environment. And I love it all to no end, do it all for the love of music, creation, fabrication, electrical, electronics, mechanical, acoustic, etc... 

Thanks for any info you can pass on & be well be safe...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

S.A.-K.I.D. said:


> Interesting build log you have. May I ask what you like & don't like about the ultra subs? Did some research on them & would like some more info. Such as weight, inductance, or just what you measured thats not given thru vertex audio site that would be of benefit to know. When you switched from a-12 to prm 12, was there a noticeable difference or was that just to try something new? I couldn' recall if you tried them sealed at all but running car IB(TB), did they drop of quickly towards midbass or did they have a decent extension? Last one, is one enough for you or would two give that extra dynamic headroom?
> 
> I'm a person whom prefers two-ways & a single sealed sub for my last few car audio set ups. Going IB(TB) will be my next & plan to use my 12w6v2. Figure it will at least give me double the displacement of my last audio system, which was a single sealed 10w6/10w3. Both first gen. Really preferred the 10w6 & realize I may not care for all these extremely low distortion subwoofers, give me some warmth. It's a car audio system, a very poor harsh acoustical environment. And I love it all to no end, do it all for the love of music, creation, fabrication, electrical, electronics, mechanical, acoustic, etc...
> 
> Thanks for any info you can pass on & be well be safe...


I have tried several subs in the car over the past 8 years including sealed, ported, aperiodic, and IB. I have ran the A-12 both sealed and IB and loved it in both applications. the PRV-12 is not as musical but built stronger and probably at home in a budget groundpounder. I will be removing the PRV-12 and putting the A-12 back in. I did a pair of reviews on them with WT3 sweeps and RTA.

Ultra Subs A-12 12" Subwoofer - IB ready

Ultra Subs PRM-12 - Limited Run!

the A-12 blended better with my soundstage and all of my bass is in the sound stage. my midbass response is good up front and my bass response is quite wide. 

as it relates to output, you can get plenty of output from an IB wall, but too much and you lose the soundstage and it's just loud.


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## S.A.-K.I.D. (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info. Yes I have been reading & read those post on another form. Currently using a smartphone & while viewing your measurements it stay blurred & couldnt focus better to read data.

My musical choices are wide but strongly on quality hip hop(undrground & some current that use live instruments) not much of the garbage push thru the radio waves today. Damn, the '90s had it on lock, but anyway, also jazz, rnb, some rock, blues, just whatever sounds good to me.


Sounds like the A-12 may have me covered in many areas: musical, reasonable mounting depth, decent build materials, light weight(appears at least) which will make it easier to consider two for more headroom(Sd), less xmax, & spread the power. May just grab a pair & move forward. Thanks again & keep building but mainly enjoy the pleasure & capability to hear. So many people, young & older, just don't value the valuable. Quality/quantity.......


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

S.A.-K.I.D. said:


> Thanks for the info. Yes I have been reading & read those post on another form. Currently using a smartphone & while viewing your measurements it stay blurred & couldnt focus better to read data.
> 
> My musical choices are wide but strongly on quality hip hop(undrground & some current that use live instruments) not much of the garbage push thru the radio waves today. Damn, the '90s had it on lock, but anyway, also jazz, rnb, some rock, blues, just whatever sounds good to me.
> 
> ...


Yes, the A-12 is a solid performer that sounds great. The RF 800a2 did a great job on it and it handled the power without issues. VertexAudio is great to work with. 

Rich
Acoustics Engineer


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## S.A.-K.I.D. (May 27, 2013)

Could you tell me about your guesstimate of the physical weight of the A-12 & the Lv you had experience with? What type of alignments work for you w/Lv series? Lastly, was the inductance reasonable to work w/average to above average mid bass drivers properly installed(+powered)?


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## Chris12 (Sep 20, 2018)

Just read through the entire build thread. Completely awesome. Your IB wall gave me some great ideas.

Thanks for posting!


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