# JT's 2018 Challenger Audio System "Log"



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

This isn't really a start-to-finish "log" of my audio system - just a place that I can post my somewhat-random thoughts and questions on my system and the upgrades I do to it or want to do to it....

Brief background - I have a 2018 Dodge Challenger - it came with the "Alpine Premium Amplified" system - a 6-speaker setup (2 x Dash 3.5" speakers, 2 x Door 6x9" speakers and 2 x Rear Deck 6.5" speakers) - there was not a single tweeter in the OEM system - all of the speakers were just 1-way cone speakers. The OEM amplifier was called a "276 watt" amplifier - which I'm 99.9% sure is the MAX rating, not the RMS rating. 

Originally, I upgraded all of the speakers to Infinity Reference speakers. Then I decided that I wanted more control - so I installed a JL Audio XD600/6v2 amp and a Rockford Fosgate DSR-1 DSP - as well as a JBL BassPro SL under-seat amplified sub. That kept me busy for a while since I've never installed a "real" system - let alone a DSP - and I had a LOT to learn. All of my previous audio experience from my "other" car (a 2012 Impala) was basically with low-cost speaker upgrades, plug-and-play headunit upgrades (Rosen, Advent, Dynavin and even a Chinese Android plug-and-play system) and small class-d "redbrick" amps (Alpine KTP-445U and Kicker KEY180.4). 

After I got bored and tired of dealing with issues related to the DSR-1, I upgraded to the PAC AmpPro 4 / Helix DSP.3 w/wifi adapter combination and have never looked back (the Helix is in a whole different league than the DSR-1) . Then I upgraded my speakers to the Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C component set (which was much better than the Infinity Reference speakers) for the front stage and then the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X174 6.5" coaxial speakers for the rear-deck (I like rear speakers).

Since then, I've been working on my tuning abilities and trying out all sorts of different speakers for the front stage. These include the CDT CL-69S (slim, carbon-fibre 6x9 midbass for doors), Illusion Audio C3CX (3" coaxials with high-quality tweeter for dash) and finally the Audiofrog GS25 (2.5" widebands for the dash). I also started "collecting" some higher quality speakers here and there, but still have not actually used yet (Focal coaxial 6x9's, Focal tweeters w/crossovers, complete Audiofrog G60S set and a set of Hybrid Audio Technologies L3SE widebands. Lastly, I just purchased a few more sets of CDT speakers which _just_ arrive - the CDT ES-690 CFS (highest level of CDT "slim" 6x9 midbass speakers) and the CDT Unity 8.0 speakers, which are 2" aluminum-cone, 8-octave wideband speakers - with a frequency response of 200hz - 33khz.

So much for a "brief" background.... 

Next post will be to talk about the CDT Unity 8.0 speakers. I purchased the "Pod" versions and wanted to get some input on pod mounting tips. 

Here is a picture of my gear installed under the spare-tire "trap door" in the trunk:


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So when I bought the CDT Unity 8.0 drivers, I bought the Pod versions - simply because that way I could remove the drivers from the pods and install them under the OEM dash panel speaker grilles, firing straight up into the windshield (with some custom baffles) - or I could actually install them on-top of the dash, in the pods, on-axis if I wanted to. 

I think I'm going to just "set" them on the dash for my initial in-pod testing - just to do some brief listening tests and get some measurements. Although, I have a hard time believing that I'll get better results when I put them under the stock dash panel speaker grilles, firing up into the windshield.  I've honestly never liked a-pillar "pods" - to me, they look like big tumors growing out of the a-pillars and I just don't like the look whatsoever. Putting the pods on top of the dash, in the corners would actually look a lot cleaner, I think - so who, knows, I may end up installing them like that even though I've always wanted to keep the OEM look. All depends on how much better they sound on top of the dash. I have to cut the speaker wires inside the pod to remove the drivers from the pods (the wires are soldered to the speaker terminals), so I guess I'll test them on top of the dash first. The only "issue" is that the dash corners have a slight downward slope where the pods will go, so they will point downward every-so-slightly (and on the drivers side, may cause some reflection-related issues from the dash area that goes around the driver instrument cluster (not the case on the passenger side).

Anyway, since I've never used pods before, does anyone have any "tips"? Do I really have to worry about that slight downward slope? Can I just mount them with velcro? I'm not going to screw into any of the cars plastic at this point since I don't know for sure if I'm going to keep them on the dash. Should I point them towards the driver (passenger side would be pointed differently than the drivers side) or point them both at the same angle? Again, just looking for any tips anyone may have when testing pods...

Thank you.

Here is a link to the exact speakers I have: CDT Audio Unity8.0P


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Well, I ended up just removing the Unity 8.0 drivers from the pods and installing them in my OEM dash locations. I'll tell you what, after trying a few different types of dash speakers, including a few inexpensive coaxials (Infinity Reference 3.5" coaxials, Kenwood coaxials from the KFC-XP6903C set), expensive coaxials (Illusion Audio C3CX coaxials) and even a good wideband (Audiofrog GS25), I like these Unity 8.0 speakers better than them all - easily! 

These things are just so smooth and detailed - without any harshness whatsoever - while still providing plenty of highs. So far, I've found them to be the best sounding solution for my OEM dash locations. 

Here are a few pictures of them:

Here is a picture of a Unity 8.0 next to an Audiofrog GS25 (the Unity is already installed into a baffle for my dash here):









Here are a few pictures of the Unity 8.0 installed in my dash:

















And here are a few after I installed some Soundskins Rings (like FastRings, but _way_ better):

















Since the grille is permanently attached to the driver and is not a completely "flat" grille (has an arc to it), I figured the Soundskins would be beneficial to avoid losing some of the speaker output underneath the dash panel since there is no "seal" between the speaker and the dash panel, like there would be with OEM speakers).

I love this version of the Soundskins - they give you rings for speakers from 1" to 8" (I think) - two rings for each size. Only problem is that they never sold them in the US. I've been buying from an Ebay seller in Canada. 

Here is a YouTube video that shows them:





And here is a link to the EBay seller I've been buying them from, if you are interested (I've been offering them $30 shipped and they've been accepting):
SOUNDSKINS RING KIT - acoustic baffles / spacer rings | eBay

But yeah, absolutely loving these CDT Unity 8.0 widebands (2" aluminum cone driver with a freq response of 200hz - 33khz). By far the best-sounding dash speakers I've tried. Highly recommended!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So I've always wondered if these "Fast Rings" type products really made any difference or not. In theory, they seem like that would be beneficial, but do they _really_ make any difference?

I took "before Soundskins" and "after Soundskins" un-EQ'd measurements of my Unity 8.0 dash speakers - here are the results:

Red=Before Soundskins
Green=After Soundskins

*Left Speaker*









*Right Speaker*









So there you have it... At least with these small 2" wideband dash speakers, they definitely do make a difference. For the most part, you get more volume from the speakers - up to a 3dB increase. However, there are some freqs where the output was actually a little lower with the rings. I would assume the response _with_ the rings is the more "truer" response? Not sure how to know for sure either way though.

Keep in mind that these response graphs are with the speakers behind my very restrictive factory speaker grilles. The response is MUCH better without the OEM speaker grilles in place. 

Also, I did take before/after-OEM-grilles-in-place measurements as well as comparison measurements between the CDT Unity 8.0 and Audiofrog GS25 speakers, which I will post shortly.


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## ram_hp (Jun 7, 2020)

Thanks for sharing the details of your build and thought process.
I think you may have bought the last set of those Soundskins Rings! I can't find them with that ebay seller you lined.
I wonder if if Soundskins has replaced them with the "SoundSkins Rings v3"?

What product did you use to measure the frequency response?

The Unity 8.0P speakers look interesting. For my own use, I would probably keep the pod mount for versatility in aiming them, but would really need to see how they look and sound on the dash... they aren't the most aestheticly pleasing.

Please keep sharing!


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Very nice build! I am interested in hearing what you think of the CDT Unity 8.0, I have installed them for customers and use them in my car. I think they are one of the better widebands available today.


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## Mindcrime (Jul 18, 2012)

ram_hp said:


> Thanks for sharing the details of your build and thought process.
> I think you may have bought the last set of those Soundskins Rings! I can't find them with that ebay seller you lined.
> I wonder if if Soundskins has replaced them with the "SoundSkins Rings v3"?
> 
> ...


 SQL Audio sells something similar, I actually prefer them. I really like their sound deadening as well


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

ANS said:


> Very nice build! I am interested in hearing what you think of the CDT Unity 8.0, I have installed them for customers and use them in my car. I think they are one of the better widebands available today.


I absolutely love the CDT Audio Unity 8.0 speakers. I've tried many different solutions for the dash speakers, including inexpensive coaxials (Infinity, Kenwood Excelon, etc), expensive coaxials (Illusion Audio C3CX) and Audiofrog widebands (GS25) and I like the Unity 8.0's the best of them all. 

I don't miss having a dedicated tweeter one bit - like not AT ALL. With a little EQ, you'd never know there was no tweeter - and my stock speaker grilles are very restrictive to boot - wouldn't need as much EQ if I didn't have those restrictive OEM speaker grilles (they are part of the dash, so I can't just "fix" the grille part easily - would require major customization to improve the dash grilles). The Unity 8.0 speakers are very impressive. I hate using words to explain how something sounds, but I'll try...  They just sound so smooth and clear. I have no harshness at all like I did with some other 3.5" speakers. 

Love them and can't recommend them enough.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Mindcrime said:


> SQL Audio sells something similar, I actually prefer them. I really like their sound deadening as well


They actually look VERY similar with the Soundskins Ringz V3, which come in "strips" - which I also have:










However, for round speakers, I like the other style better, where they came in pre-made circles. They aren't as wide as the strips, which I found to be a little too wide for a lot of speakers - the round ones just seem to work better since there are no ends that "meet up" (since they are made as one round piece).

Unfortunately, the pre-made round SoundSkins are almost impossible to find anymore...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I'm kind of curious - does anyone know why the Helix folks recommend 12dB Butterworth xovers for just about everything (except maybe the subwoofer)?

It seems like everyone else in the world recommends 24dB Linkwitz-Riley. Just kind of curious why Audiotec-Fischer recommends 12dB Butterworth xovers in their Sound Tuning magazines... Specifically, I'm talking about this one:

http://audiotec-fischer.de.dedivirt...agazine-DSP_Special_Vol2_Web59e70d008e6b1.pdf

Is there any reason why someone might want to use 12dB Butterworth filters in an active system (acoustical xovers)?


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Can't answer your question about the Butterworth crossovers, but regarding your dash grills, can you mod and wrap them with speaker grill cloth? I did something similar in my WRX.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Frequentflyer said:


> Can't answer your question about the Butterworth crossovers, but regarding your dash grills, can you mod and wrap them with speaker grill cloth? I did something similar in my WRX.


I'm sure that it can be done - but I don't have the skills to do it. 

Here is what I mean when I say that they are "built into" the dash panel (they are actually part of the dash panel itself - there are no separate removable grilles that I can easily modify and wrap - I'd have to cut them out and replace them with custom-made grilles somehow):


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Aaah. I see what you are saying now. Is that a spot for a center channel?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Frequentflyer said:


> Aaah. I see what you are saying now. Is that a spot for a center channel?


Yep - some models of the car come with a center-channel speaker (18-speaker kind of OEM system). Mine did not, but the grille is still there. Would be pretty easy to add a center-channel speaker if I ever wanted to go that route, but I doubt that I ever will. From what I've read, two-seat tunes are a real "challenge" - and most of the time, I'm by myself when I drive the Challenger.


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

If the area where the grills are is flat, could you use something like this?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Frequentflyer said:


> If the area where the grills are is flat, could you use something like this?
> 
> View attachment 275618


Yeah, I started looking into simple round aftermarket grilles, but just not sure how that would work out. Wasn't sure how they would "mount" to the dash panel. I just don't have the skills when it comes to that kind of stuff. I'd rather the speaker grilles not be "tied" to a specific speaker in case I change the dash speakers out at some point in the future (not planning to change them, but...). So I'm assuming that we're talking about using some sort of adhesive to mount them - and that makes me nervous (I like screws!).  

Thoughts?


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

I’m curious about the benefit of opening up the grills or making them less restrictive, specifically when using widebands. My thought is that fairly restrictive grills act as wave guides in a way, in that they guide the sound waves toward the windshield. I could see this being fairly useful with a wideband where you have the lower frequencies that are not beaming and would reach your ear more directly (if not guided by the grills) vs the higher frequencies which definitely are beaming into the windshield only.

Basically I wonder if the restrictive grills actually help by making most or all of the sound bounce off the windshield instead of a mix of direct and indirect. I think this depends on a specific car, grills, and relative speaker position (and the use of widebands). But just a thought.

I totally get that the speaker measures differently with the grills off. I would think it would be louder and I would think you would get a boost in the lower frequencies in particular as you’ll get a lot more direct energy/sound waves. 

In the end it probably comes down to listening preference, but just was thinking that it might not be an automatic win in every case. I could be wrong though 


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I actually listened and took measurements before and after installing the stock speaker gilles. The difference was pretty dramatic. It basically sounded like I put pillows over the speakers when I installed the stock dash panel with the speaker grilles! I was really surprised. On the back side of the dash panel, there are no "guides" that help seal the speakers to the dash panel or help "direct" the sound at all - it's just completely flat, but the plastic "slits" covering about 50% of the speaker openings. I do use some Soundskins foam fastring-like closed cell foam to help "seal" the speakers against the dash though (mentioned earlier in this thread) - which did actually make a measurable difference.

I noticed that Nick (@SkizeR ) also found the same thing on a Challenger that he did (Hellcat model, which has the exact same dash/speaker grilles). He actually ended up cutting the stock grilles out and replaced them with custom grilles that were much less restrictive. 

I'll find the measurements of each and post them. From what I remember, it actually impacted the mid/higher frequencies more than the lower frequencies.

Like you said, every car will be different, but the stock grilles in these Challengers are pretty bad.... 

WIll be back and post the with/without grille measurements shortly.


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Yeah, I’m sure they are bad. Was just a thought. ;-). I have a similar situation in my car. I haven’t done the measurements, I don’t find the sound to be lacking, but I wonder. 

The install that skizer did was a three way, so without the beaming issues that a wideband has.


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## thedynoguy (Jan 5, 2019)

call Nick Apicella and have him make you a pair of these...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So I tried something new with regards to my tuning process. In the past, I've always used full parametric EQ to tune my system. Only parametric EQ. However, the problem with parametric EQ is that when you want to try and adjust the "tonality" of the system "on the fly", it's almost impossible because there is no easy way to just bump up a freq range of both sides evenly - so you basically need to manually re-EQ each speaker individually even for simple tonality changes.

So I retuned my system - but this time, instead of using parametric EQ, I used a combination of both GEQ _and_ PEQ. The system is 90% tuned using simple graphical EQ. Then I used some of the un-used bands outside of the speakers frequency range for a few allpass filters and a couple parametric filters to address any areas where graphical EQ just wasn't able to get the job done. Now, if I need to do any tonality adjustments of my dash speakers, for example (they play 500hz - 20khz), I just link the two channels in the Helix and adjust the appropriate GEQ bands. Super quick and easy.

This seems to work really well. I only needed a few parametric bands on a few channels. Tonality changes are quick and easy "on the fly" now instead of trying to manually adjust PEQ bands of each channel and end up with the same result on both channels - while sitting in the car listening to the results.

Just thought I'd share. I actually think my system sounds better now than it ever has - and I can VERY quickly and easily adjust the tonality now if/as needed. With the help of a few PEQ bands, I have left/right matching really well and also still have the ability to adjust freqs on both sides while keeping them matched. Best of both worlds.

For whatever reason,my brain always just went to using one or the other method (GEQ or PEQ) - and it never really crossed my mind to use a combination of them both....


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

thedynoguy said:


> call Nick Apicella and have him make you a pair of these...
> View attachment 275810


Not my style.... Not only do I imagine that they would cost more that I'd be willing to spend, but I wouldn't want to "learn by doing" with the installation of something as custom and expensive as those grilles.  I'm also not going to drive to New York and back just to have Nick install them.  

But besides all of that, probably the biggest reason is that I'm fully into the "DIY" part of things right now. I've done EVERYTHING for this install myself - and kind of enjoy doing this stuff myself and learning along the way. It's turned into a fulltime hobby that I really enjoy. I honestly don't want someone else to do it for me. 

That all being said, for this issue, I think I'll just work-around the issue with EQ. After EQ, the only thing I really lose is a few dB in volume, but I actually have more volume than I need, so it's not a deal-breaker. One of those "nice to have, but not _really_ needed" type of things. Someday, maybe I'll get serious and do something about it, but it's very low on the priority list. 

Much higher on my priority list is to get my doors deadened. Going to do my first HDPE w/rivnuts install to seal up the holes in the doors (instead of just installing the deadener itself right over the holes, which will be a real PITA if I ever need to get my window regulator replaced or something like that. I want to be able to easily remove the panels to get access to the insides of the door - that way I can simply re-install the panels after any in-door work is done. Car only has about 11k miles on it, so I'll most likely have it for a while, so I want to do it right (or at least right'ish).


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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> So I tried something new with regards to my tuning process. In the past, I've always used full parametric EQ to tune my system. Only parametric EQ. However, the problem with parametric EQ is that when you want to try and adjust the "tonality" of the system "on the fly", it's almost impossible because there is no easy way to just bump up a freq range of both sides evenly - so you basically need to manually re-EQ each speaker individually even for simple tonality changes.
> 
> So I retuned my system - but this time, instead of using parametric EQ, I used a combination of both GEQ _and_ PEQ. The system is 90% tuned using simple graphical EQ. Then I used some of the un-used bands outside of the speakers frequency range for a few allpass filters and a couple parametric filters to address any areas where graphical EQ just wasn't able to get the job done. Now, if I need to do any tonality adjustments of my dash speakers, for example (they play 500hz - 20khz), I just link the two channels in the Helix and adjust the appropriate GEQ bands. Super quick and easy.
> 
> ...


I think you may be on to something here. I started tuning using REW EQ and used it to import EQ files into the Helix. However, with my particular install having tweeters and mids up on the dash, REW was using too many parametric EQ bands. Some of them were so close together it was probably negligible difference. Remember, REW is mainly used for home theater and I am not quite sure it's able to adapt to more challenging tunes we see in vehicles.

What I did the other day was build separate driver curves to use in the Helix RTA (auto-set EQ) to let the DSP do most of the work. The fact that DSP Tool has the ability to give me an 85-90% product in a matter of minutes is pretty amazing. I tried the auto-set in the past using the left side/right side/sub technique in the past, but I actually think tuning individual driver curves using auto-set is giving me much better results and leaving a lot more bands open to do what you desribe above.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Frequentflyer said:


> I think you may be on to something here. I started tuning using REW EQ and used it to import EQ files into the Helix. However, with my particular install having tweeters and mids up on the dash, REW was using too many parametric EQ bands. Some of them were so close together it was probably negligible difference. Remember, REW is mainly used for home theater and I am not quite sure it's able to adapt to more challenging tunes we see in vehicles.
> 
> What I did the other day was build separate driver curves to use in the Helix RTA (auto-set EQ) to let the DSP do most of the work. The fact that DSP Tool has the ability to give me an 85-90% product in a matter of minutes is pretty amazing. I tried the auto-set in the past using the left side/right side/sub technique in the past, but I actually think tuning individual driver curves using auto-set is giving me much better results and leaving a lot more bands open to do what you desribe above.


You can choose how many bands it uses. Why do you assume less is better

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## Frequentflyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Well I've seen it throw an EQ pulling 6db at 2,005 hz with a Q of 1.3 and another one throwing 3db back in at 2,020 with a Q of 4. That just seems to be a waste of two bands as I would assume there could be something you could throw in somewhere in the middle of those two that would give close to, if not the same result. Of course this could all be my lack of experience with REW.

I'm going to experiment with using Helix auto-set first, then using REW EQ after I RTA the results from the Helix. Then I'll input the parametric results from REW EQ.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So I _finally_ decided to sound-deaden my doors fully (I had applied a little deadener around the door speaker when I installed them, but that is it). I had planned on using some HDPE to seal up the holes in the doors instead of just plastering the deadener over the holes like I did with my previous car (wanted to be able to access door internals without just cutting through the deadener) - even bought a rivet nut tool, rivnuts and some HDPE sheets to do this.

However, when I peeled the vapor barrier off of my door, I found that it's not going to be as easy as I had hoped... The biggest hole has a big curve in the one spot - so the edges of the hole aren't "level" where I can just put a piece of HDPE over it neatly - some of hole edges are lower than others - so not really sure how to handle that - the HDPE isn't _that_ flexible to handle that curve.

The other two holes are also problematic - one has a window motor that protrudes out of the hole a little and the other one is like the bigger one - the edges aren't all "level" - plus it has a box that goes into the door and the vapor barrier is "formed" around it (to keep that box away from the elements, I guess).

Also, the vapor barrier on this car is not just a thin piece of plastic - it's a thicker "formed" piece of vinyl... Not sure what to do... Thoughts?

Here is the door with the vapor barrier removed:










Here are a few pictures of the vapor barrier (don't have a "whole door" shot):



















EDIT: Here is a picture of the door panel with the "problem areas" talked about above circled:










EDIT2: Oh, that little square of deader you see on the outer door skin was there from the factory. It was not stuck to the door very well AT ALL - I rolled it before I applied my deadener over top of it (not pictured).


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

So how’d you end up approaching / solving this issue? I would offer help but I’m not sure on the best way to approach it.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Mauian said:


> So how’d you end up approaching / solving this issue? I would offer help but I’m not sure on the best way to approach it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't do anything yet.  So far, I just applied Noico deadener to the outside door skin and deadener/CCF to the indented middle part of the inside door skin.

I think what I'm going to do is get some mass-loaded vinyl and then use HDPE to cover the majority of the holes and then use the flexible MLV to cover the reset (the parts that aren't "level" - which is really is just a few parts). 

For example - a VERY rough idea of what I mean (black=HDPE, red=MLV):









However, that still doesn't address where the vapor battier goes behind that little box that is sunk into the door (above the speaker). I _may_ just end up trying to put the factory vapor barrier back on over top of the HDPE/MLV - not sure if I could though, with the way it's "formed". 

Although, I'm really starting to wonder if it's even woth it though. With how thick the vapor barrier material is, I'm wondering if it's even beneficial to seal up the holes with HDPE. I mean the vapor barrier itself kind of seals up the holes already - and is "form-fitted" to the door. Maybe I could just stick some CCF to the back of the vapor barrier, to help it seal the holes a little more? Just thinking out loud. 

I will say - It's amazing how much of a difference the Noico deadener makes with the "knock test" on the doors though. These are big, thick doors - and were very hollow-sounding when you knocked on them. Now, with the Noico applied (almost 100% on outer skin),, when you knock, it sounds like the doors are filled with concrete.  

Unfortunately, I also changed speakers at the same time, so don't have any measurement comparisons to see what audible difference the deadener made (I put in those CL69Sub speakers that you sold me!). So far, I rally like them. I don't even think that they are fully broken in yet though.

Open to any and all input/ideas!!!


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Maybe fiberglass over the plastic vapor barrier to stiffen it up and then some vibraflex? AA-VibraFlex


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

DaveG said:


> Maybe fiberglass over the plastic vapor barrier to stiffen it up and then some vibraflex? AA-VibraFlex


Thanks for the input - but I'm not looking to get into any custom fiberglass work. My main goal here is simplicity and keeping things so that the parts inside the door are easily accessible. Originally, before I really looked at how the door is setup, I was just planning on putting HDPE panels over the holes using rivnuts - and even that was further than I've ever gone before. 

In my last car, I just covered the holes with the Noico deadener, which actually worked really well from any audio perspective, but gives me no way to access the door internals without cutting into the deadener/CCF. I don't want to do it that way with this car. Was hoping to just use HDPE panels with deadener and CCF applied to the HDPE, so I could remove and re-install the panels easily without having to redo any deadening work. With a little MLV, I should be able to do that and seal things up pretty well, but now I'm questioning if it's even worth it. [

Would the HDPE panels actually do a significantly better job in terms of "sealing" up the holes in the doors and improving midbass than the existing, somewhat-thick OEM vinyl vapor barrier (which seals the entire door panel with the butyl rope going around the outside of the vapor barrier? I seem to have plenty of midbass, so like I said, I'm not sure if it's even worth messing with at all.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

I would hardly call it "custom". Scuff up the OEM vinyl vapor barrier to help with adhesion and lay the fiberglass to it. Or maybe just add some mlv to it and call it a day.


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

My first thought when I saw the vapor barrier was “I wonder if changing it will make any difference, as that looks pretty good.”

If that vinyl vapor barrier flexes easily then stiffening it up with fiberglass, or stiff MLV, or lead might help. The fiberglass idea could be neat. If you could purchase one of those vapor barriers for fairly cheap it might be worth messing around with bondo or fiberglass as a fun project to keep if from flexing. Could do before and after measurements and school the rest of us on the benefit (or lack there of) 


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I really don't think that the vapor barrier flexes much, simply because the door panel itself also has a big, pretty thick piece of soft material on the back of it, which presses up against the vapor barrier when the door panel is installed. I really haven't been in a huge hurry to deaden the doors in this car just because there really weren't any obvious vibration-related issues from the bass like I've had on other cars - and the midbass was actually really good in these doors already - the doors are pretty well done from the factory on this car (at least compared to my 2012 Impala!). They obviously benefitted some from the deadener that I put on the outer door skin, but the inner door skin doesn't seem like it's as big of an issue on this car.

The reason why I'm "resisting" the whole fiberglass thing is that I don't have any experience with that and not so sure I want to tackle something like that right now. I usually don't do well with "messy" stuff like that.  Plus, I already have the HDPE sheets and associated tools to seal the holes up that way.

Another option with the HDPE sheets is to cover the all of the holes with one large, single-piece HDPE panel - this would avoid the issues related to doing each hole individually. Basically, the HDPE panel would be the same overall shape as the OEM vapor barrier - it would just be HDPE instead of the vinyl material. I would use the thinner 1/8" HDPE so as to not interfere with putting the door panel back on. Would have to put a few holes in the panel for the door lock rod (the thing that you push down and pull up to lock/unlock the door) as well as the cable for the inside door handle mechanism and a few other things - but that may be the best way to tackle this.

Something like this:


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

Unless the 1/8” HDPE flexes less and/or will create a better seal than the vapor barrier I doubt it will be an improvement.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, that's the thing - at this point, I'm not so sure it's even worth doing anything at all. I probably should have investigated the door setup better before ordering anything... 

Unfortunately, I really have no way of knowing if the vinyl vapor barrier is flexing at all or not when the door panel is on. The vinyl isn't "stiff", but its more substantial than the thin piece of plastic that I've seen on some other doors. 

I think I'll just hold off - this may just be a solution in search of a problem. ;-) I'm really not looking to spend hours of time and drill holes in my door sheet-metal for no significant benefit.


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## thedynoguy (Jan 5, 2019)

it all makes a difference...


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## Mauian (Jul 25, 2019)

thedynoguy said:


> it all makes a difference...
> View attachment 279796
> View attachment 279797
> View attachment 279795


Oh yeah! Forgot about this build log.

So looks like some HDPE with some deadener applied, attached to the door with new holes drilled and some CCF/butyl rope to seal it up?

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mauian said:


> Oh yeah! Forgot about this build log.
> 
> So looks like some HDPE with some deadener applied, attached to the door with new holes drilled and some CCF/butyl rope to seal it up?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ABS in that case, not hdpe

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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

The problem is - that is exactly what I _don't_ want to do. I don't want to seal the doors up in a way where I no longer have access to the door internals without "ruining" the deadener installation (basically, just plastering the deadener/ABS, right over the holes). That's all fine and dandy until you need access to the door internals for some reason. I've had too many issues with window regulators over the years.  

After seeing how the doors are done from the factory, I'm just not convinced that it would make a substantial difference putting thin ABS (or HDPE) over the holes versus the existing, rather thick OEM vapor barrier, which is "custom fit" and already seals things up pretty damn well. I can't imagine that the OEM vapor barrier is really flexing that much with the way the door panel is designed - and how it puts pressure on the vapor barrier already.

Now in my other car, the door setup was nowhere near as good as it is on the Challenger - so it was obvious that it would make a difference (and it did) - but again, in that car, I just plastered the deadener over the holes, which I really don't want to do here - and when I think about it, since I just plastered the deadener over the holes (without ABS/HDPE), it's not very different (in terms of stiffness) than the vapor barrier in the Challenger. 

So I'm just not sure I see the value of it in this car. Again, it seems more like a solution in search of a problem on the Challenger doors. I think I'm just going to stick with what I have, which is deadener on the outer skin and deader/CCF on the inner skin, with the OEM vapor barrier re-installed. Not having any vibration-related noise issues and have plenty of great-sounding midbass as-is. I already have all of the material - so if I truly thought that the benefits outweighed the "cons", I would do it - but I'm just not seeing the need.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mechanically secure them to the door. That's what we do. Easy removal and reinstall

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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> Mechanically secure them to the door. That's what we do. Easy removal and reinstall
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Hmm... Maybe I'm missing something. In this picture, I don't see any way to remove the panels over the holes without peeling deadener off? Are there screws under some of those smaller strips of deadener or something? If so, it looks like it would take considerable effort just to get to the screws if that is the case? I just remember trying to peel a piece of old deadener away before and it is NOT something I would want to do - especially all of those little pieces. I can just imagine taking the car to a dealership for warranty work and them being like WTF??  I suppose I could just not cover the screw heads with deadener (I'd be using rivnuts), which would avoid that problem though. 

More importantly How did you handle the bends in the holes (like pictured earlier in the thread)? I'm assuming the ABS was not flexible enough to "conform" to those bends to fully seal them? Or do you somehow "form" the PVC to the curves by shaping it or something? That was my initial concern - how to handle the bends in the holes. Then, once I started realizing all of the "cons" and that it wasn't a simple job of "bolting the hdpe to the doors to cover the holes", I started wondering if it was even worth it on this car.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Peel the edges up about an inch and unscrew the machine screws 

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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> The problem is - that is exactly what I _don't_ want to do. I don't want to seal the doors up in a way where I no longer have access to the door internals without "ruining" the deadener installation (basically, just plastering the deadener/ABS, right over the holes). That's all fine and dandy until you need access to the door internals for some reason. I've had too many issues with window regulators over the years.
> 
> After seeing how the doors are done from the factory, I'm just not convinced that it would make a substantial difference putting thin ABS (or HDPE) over the holes versus the existing, rather thick OEM vapor barrier, which is "custom fit" and already seals things up pretty damn well. I can't imagine that the OEM vapor barrier is really flexing that much with the way the door panel is designed - and how it puts pressure on the vapor barrier already.
> 
> ...


So why are you so hesitant to replace a max of $30 in CLD if by chance you ever need to service the inside of your door?

This makes no sense to me for anyone considering mounting a Midbass into a door. The vapor barrier is made of plastic which is less than 0.5mm thick. It will flop around like a wet noodle.

Ge0


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> So why are you so hesitant to replace a max of $30 in CLD if by chance you ever need to service the inside of your door?
> 
> This makes no sense to me for anyone considering mounting a Midbass into a door. The vapor barrier is made of plastic which is less than 0.5mm thick. It will flop around like a wet noodle.
> 
> Ge0


Absolutely nothing to do with cost. I just don't want the PITA/mess/crappy results related to having to remove/cut-out and then re-apply a "patch" of new deadener if need be. To me, it just makes more sense to make it so I can easily remove and re-install "panels" covering the holes without having to deal with any deadener/butyl removal/re-installation. Just thinking ahead - because like I've said, I've had quite a few issues with window regulators in the past - in fact, I'm actually having an intermittent issue right now (has been there since I got the car, but it hasn't bothered me enough to worry about it yet).  Keep in mind, that I tend to keep my cars a _long_ time (up to 20 years in some cases), so who knows how many times I may need to access the door internals. 

The vapor barrier in this car is about the same "stiffness" as the deadener that I'm installing - it's a heavy, somewhat thick vinyl - so it doesn't make much sense to me to plaster deadener over the holes if it's not any "stiffer" than the vapor barrier itself. So without the HDPE panels, there is definitely no reason to do anything at all - because the OEM vapor barrier actually covers all of the holes in the door and it can't flex much because of the way the material on the back of the door panel puts pressure on the vapor barrier.

Even after all of this back and forth, I still don't know how I would handle my original problem if I were to use HDPE panels - and that is the "curves" in the holes.  Without actually "forming" the plastic to the curve in the holes, I don't see a way to cover the entire hole with HDPE (unless I used one big piece to cover all of the holes like mentioned above).


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## WileeCoyote69 (Nov 23, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> Absolutely nothing to do with cost. I just don't want the PITA/mess/crappy results related to having to remove/cut-out and then re-apply a "patch" of new deadener if need be. To me, it just makes more sense to make it so I can easily remove and re-install "panels" covering the holes without having to deal with any deadener/butyl removal/re-installation. Just thinking ahead - because like I've said, I've had quite a few issues with window regulators in the past - in fact, I'm actually having an intermittent issue right now (has been there since I got the car, but it hasn't bothered me enough to worry about it yet).  Keep in mind, that I tend to keep my cars a _long_ time (up to 20 years in some cases), so who knows how many times I may need to access the door internals.
> 
> The vapor barrier in this car is about the same "stiffness" as the deadener that I'm installing - it's a heavy, somewhat thick vinyl - so it doesn't make much sense to me to plaster deadener over the holes if it's not any "stiffer" than the vapor barrier itself. So without the HDPE panels, there is definitely no reason to do anything at all - because the OEM vapor barrier actually covers all of the holes in the door and it can't flex much because of the way the material on the back of the door panel puts pressure on the vapor barrier.
> 
> Even after all of this back and forth, I still don't know how I would handle my original problem if I were to use HDPE panels - and that is the "curves" in the holes.  Without actually "forming" the plastic to the curve in the holes, I don't see a way to cover the entire hole with HDPE (unless I used one big piece to cover all of the holes like mentioned above).


Have you considered lining the door trim instead? Not with butyl sheets, with a composite foam/MLV/foam barrier that replaces the foam lining.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

WileeCoyote69 said:


> Have you considered lining the door trim instead? Not with butyl sheets, with a composite foam/MLV/foam barrier that replaces the foam lining.


No, I really haven't. I already have the CLD and CCF and I already bought all of the HDPE plastic, rivnut gun, rivnuts, etc - so I'll find a way to make it work once it warms up outside again. Although, I'll be honest, I really don't have any issues with midbass in this car - I get all of the midbass that I want and don't even have any vibration-related issues in the doors, so it's not super-high on my list. Since I already have everything here though, I'll do it - it can't hurt. Will just have to figure out a way to make it work. I'll figure out something - but I definitely don't want to just plaster the CLD over the holes - I just feel that it can be done in a way where it's easily removable if need be (without having to peeling up CLD and make a mess, etc).


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

@DeLander - while using lead sheet to block the big holes in my doors, I was reminded of the OEM baffles that are used to fasten the 6x9 door speakers to the doors. I was wondering if you could make something more "substantial". The OEM versions work fine, but the screw holes where you secure the speaker to the baffle are just plastic - the screw just threads right into a plastic hole. So every time you replace the speakers, the plastic holes tend to be less and less "secure". To make matters worse, Dodge only sells them with speakers attached, so they are too expensive to replace all of the time. I was going to try actually installing small rivnuts in the OEM baffles (which may actually work), but figured I'd see if it would be possible to have someone make more substantial baffles - that actually had metal threaded mounting holes instead of just screwing into plastic with wood screws. 

The OEM baffles also have a "rain guard" on the back, but I actually ended up cutting that part off as it interfered with most aftermarket speaker baskets. I now just use those NVX silicone things, which act as the "rain guard" on the back, as well as a gasket between the speaker and OEM baffle - and they help form somewhat of a seal between the speaker and the door card. I've included some pics of the OEM baffles as well as the OEM baffles with the NVX silicone things, while actually mounted to my car. I do have an "extra" set of the plastic OEM baffles that I could send you to use to make your versions. However, I want to make sure this is even something that you are interested in - and get some ballpark cost figure. I'm not worried about looks - just functionality....

Thank you!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I will go more in-depth about the overall process, lessons-learned (first time ever doing something like this) and how this impacted the sound, but for now, I will just post this picture of the panels that I installed over the big holes in the doors. You may be surprised at how this impacted the sound (or maybe you won't)... I used lead sheet and CCF to make the panels (after seeing another member do this - the guy from Batdog Garage - I will have to find his forum name and post it).

The lighter CCF that you see in the middle area is just some CLD with CCF on top that I installed the first time I went to do this. That area was just the largest area of sheet metal that I felt could possibly benefit from CLD/CCF. Between the big holes in the doors and the way that the doors are formed, I just didn't feel that putting CLD/CCF over the entire door would be very beneficial. I did put CLD over almost 100% of the exterior door skin as well.

My goal here was always to make it so that I could access the inside of the doors quickly and easily - without having to deal with peeling CLD and/or re-installing new CLD afterwards, etc. 










More details to come....

EDIT: the forum member from Batdog Garage is @JI808 - he has some fantastic videos on his YouTube channel.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

jtrosky said:


> I will go more in-depth about the overall process, lessons-learned (first time ever doing something like this) and how this impacted the sound, but for now, I will just post this picture of the panels that I installed over the big holes in the doors. You may be surprised at how this impacted the sound (or maybe you won't)... I used lead sheet and CCF to make the panels (after seeing another member do this - the guy from Batdog Garage - I will have to find his forum name and post it).
> 
> The lighter CCF that you see in the middle area is just some CLD with CCF on top that I installed the first time I went to do this. That area was just the largest area of sheet metal that I felt could possibly benefit from CLD/CCF. Between the big holes in the doors and the way that the doors are formed, I just didn't feel that putting CLD/CCF over the entire door would be very beneficial. I did put CLD over almost 100% of the exterior door skin as well.
> 
> ...


Nice JT! No wonder it made a huge difference... that looks very thorough! Batdog's channel is awesome! I've watched many of his videos. He does nice work. * SIDE NOTE - He's also who Kountz supposedly manhandled and the reason for his most recent ban from what I understand.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So I made a few changes to my setup recently:

1. Like mentioned above, I _finally_ finished covering the big holes in BOTH doors using panels made with 1/16" lead sheet, wrapped in CCF on both sides (1/16" CCF on the side facing the interior, just acting as a decoupler - and 1/6" inch CCF on side facing the door cavity, just as a nice thick "gasket" to seal the holes in my doors, which have significant curves in them - they are not "flat" holes). I secured these panels to the doors using rivnuts, which makes it very easy to remove and reinstall these panels in case I ever need to access the insides of the doors for whatever reason (maintenance, etc). This worked out REALLY well. With the way that you can easily "form" the lead sheet panels, they completely seal the curved areas in holes in my doors - something that is not easily done with ABS/HDPE. And these panels were thin enough, that I was actually able to put my OEM vapor barrier back on over top of the panels (which is very useful for these doors for reasons I'll explain in more detail later).

2. With my CDT Unity 8.0 dash speakers, I tried something new - I removed them from the dash and re-installed the in the dash while they were actually installed in the Unity 8.0 pods! So the pods are actually installed inside my dash now, which makes the Unity 8.0 speakers 100% completely "sealed" (instead of just being "open" in the dash).

3. I actually increased the rear deck speaker volume by a few dB.

4. Between #1, #2, #3 - and my somewhat recent trunk sub addition, I also retuned my system to a more "standard" style curve. Less midbass and less upper treble and more midrange. Basically, I flattened out the curve instead of having boosted upper midbass and a wide dip in the midrange. 

Wow - what an improvement! I never really had any lack-of-midbass issues in this car, but my midbass is now very clean, less "boomy" and just "better" - hard to explain, but everything just sounds more "natural" and "effortless". The dash speakers now sound even better as well (due to #2 and the retune). I really had a hard time getting out of my car after running to the store this evening.  The system just sounds so damn good.... 

I'll going to make a detailed post about my experience with the lead sheet panels. As someone that has never done this before, I made quite a few mistakes and learned a lot along the way, which I'm positive will help others that are new to this. Most of my issues were with the rivnuts - partly because of the cheap rivnut tool that I was originally using and partly because of me using too much force when installing the small M5 rivnuts (let's just say that I went through a few M5 mandels, stripped a few rivnuts and originally used the wrong type of screws). Learned a lot along the way. 

Huge thanks to @JI808 from "Batdog Garage" for his lead sheet panel installation video. I would have never even thought to go this lead-sheet route without that video.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

Glad it is sounding so good. Sometimes less is more. I recently went from using the Whitledge Curve to the Half-Whitledge curve. This greatly improved Sub-Mid Bass integration. I have less panel vibration and less effort on the midbass. Much better sound and tone, made everything sound better.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

It's kind of funny. I think what was happening is that I would add a little more bass - then add a little more treble because the treble was lacking after adding the bass. Then I added more bass, then more treble - until it got to the point where I just didn't have enough midrange and both my bass and treble were over-emphesised. 

I think that the trunk sub and sealing up the doors made everything so much better as well. I think that I was compensating for "low-quality midbass" by adding more and more.

I'm sure it was a combination of multiple things, like I mentioned in my post above. Those lead sheet panels are awesome though. I think using the pods to seal up the dash speakers made a nice difference as well (I did have to retune after doing that).


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Here are some further details about the lead sheet installation, the materials I used, the tools I used (including links and prices as of 6/7/2021) and some general notes and leasons-learned along the way. Hopfully, this will come in useful for others that are new to this type of method of sealing up the holes in the doors. I LOVE that I can qucikly and easily remove the panels if/as needed, for whatever reason. It's also thin enough, that you can even put your OEM vapor panel back on over top of it.

I'm not going to post a detailed procedure of what I did - I'll just recommend the fantastic video by @JI808 from "Batdog Garage" to show you the overall procedure. I'm just going to talk about some of the smaller details not mentioned in the video and some of the issues that I ran into along the way.

Video from Batdog garage:






First, I'd recommend getting a decent rivet nut tool. I had a small Tacklife 10" Rivet Nut tool that I bought a while back. It works fine, but it requires a LOT more effort that a bigger/better tool and is not "adjustable' like a better tool. I was never sure how much pressure to apply, which caused me a lot of grief. The Astro 1442 seems to be the "standard" tool for people that need a decent quality tool for installing the occasional rivet nuts. It's not a tool that would be used all day, every day - but it's decent enough quality for jobs like this. The Astro 1442 is about ~$70 on Amazon. However, the "AutoBodyNow" (aka ABN) Rivet Nut tool is the _exact_ same tool for ~$37 - I'd recommend that one (link in list of tools below). The only difference is that the Astro comes with instructions and the ABN version does not (but you can download the Astro 1442 directions online).


*Materials that I Used*:

1/16" lead sheet (multiple brands and sizes on Amazon)
1/16" adhesive-lined Noeprene ($11): (Sponge Neoprene W/Adhesive 12in Wide X 1/16in Thick X 54in Long: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific)
1/6" adhesive-lined Closed Cell Foam: I used Noico Green 170mil CCF that I had left-over from antoher project - looks like they no longer sell that - they now have 150mil "Noico Red" instead - that should still work fine. I love the Noico CCF.
Carpet protector (to trace door openings) - it's a thin plastic that is sticky on one side - the sticky part is on the outside as it's rolled up at the factory so that you just unroll it only the surface that you want to trace - they you remove it and stick it to the material that you want to cut to fit. Same idea as using masking tape like @JI808 did in his video. I had a roll of this leftover from when I deadened the doors on my last car - something like this: Amazon.com: ZIP-UP Products Carpet Protection Film - 24" x 50' Floor and Surface Shield with Self Adhesive Backing & Easy Installation - CPF2450: Home Improvement


*Tools Used*:

Aviation snips (to cut lead sheet) - I bough this ($10.99) - Hurricane 10 Inch Aviation Tin Snips, Straight Cut, Chrome Vanadium Steel - - Amazon.com
Rivet Nut tool - I'd recommend this one ($37.99): Amazon.com: ABN Nut & Thread Hand Riveter 17-Piece Tool Kit Set – 13in Rivet Setter Gun, Riveting Nuts, SAE & Metric Nose Sets: Automotive
M5 Rivet Nuts - Tried a few brands - recommend these ($14.99): SG TZH 180Pcs Stainless Steel Rivet M5 Flat Head Rivnut Threaded Insert Nuts: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
M5 Screws* (see detail below!) - recommend these: ($8.99): Amazon.com: M5-0.8 x 12 mm Flanged Button Head Socket Cap Screws, Stainless Steel A2-70, Full Thread, Allen Socket Drive, Quantity 50: Home Improvement
Some CLD for the smaller holes - I used leftover Noico 80-mil
LOTS of patience  - PRICELESS!



*General notes and issues that I ran into*:
- Be careful not to use too much pressure and strip either the M5 mandrel or the rivet nut itself. Using too much pressure was definitely my biggest issue. I stripped a few M5 mandrels and a few rivnuts. If you feel some resistance while "squeezing" the rivet nut tool while installing the rivnut - STOP - if you just continue applying more pressure, you will hear a loud "SNAP!" and will have damaged the rivnut and/or mandrel. Ask me how I know.  I'd recommend having a spare M5 mandrel or two on-hand, just in case (sucks when you have to stop progress and wait for a $5 mandrel to arrive at the house (can't buy them locally). Even if it doesn't snap and actually break something, you end up screwing up the threads on the mandrel over time.

- Use the right screws! Originally, I was using flat-heat, countersink machine screws, because that it what I had on-hand. However, they are not the right type of screws for this job - the heads are too small and they end up "thinning" the lead as you tighten them because they create a countersunk hole. I found that M5 button-head screws w/flange were FAR, FAR better. 

- Make sure you install the rivnuts where it's flat, level and no "uneven" metal - otherwise the rivnuts can compress "crooked" and not work properly - or even break during installation. If it's not perfecty flat where you install them, the screw will have to be "angled" and it's easy to cross-thread the screws that way.

- Instead of trying to make lead panels the perfect size for the hole, make them a little bigger so you have some better choices as to where to put the rivnuts. It doesn't hurt to have the panels bigger than the hole!

- I found it easiest to secure the bare piece of lead with two rivnuts at the top of the panel first. Install the screws in those two and then "shape" the lead panel to all of the countours of the hole before deciding where to put the holes in the lead panel and ultimately the door. If you don't do this, your rivnuts won't end up where you think they would, becuase the curves that you put in the lead sheet cause the hole locations to move a little.

- Make sure to vacuum all of the metal shards out from inside the door. Drilling the holes for the rivnuts leaves quite a bit of metal shards on both the inside and outside of the door. Also, cover your door speakers with a rag or something to help catch the metal shards if drilling any holes above where your speakers are located (you don't want those little metal shards getting into/onto your speakers).

- When installing the thinner neoprene onto the lead, I found that it was very easy to get small bubbles in the neoprene, since the lead is not perfectly flat. To get rid of any small bubbles, I simply put the tip of a razor blade in them and then pressed the air out (you can't see the small hole that the razor blade puts in it. This worked really well and let me get rid of any bubbles easily.

- Find something that writes and shows on anything for when you have to trace something or draw an outline. I had a "chome"/silver touch-up paint-pen (used to touch up blemeshies on plastic chrome parts) - and found this worked very well on ALL materieals. It even worked well on the lead sheet itself. Sharpies can work well too - but not as well.

- Do NOT "force" a screw into a rivnut! I tend to try and "force" things at times - bad move with these smaller rivnuts. There were a few times where I had to remove a rivnut that wasn't installed properly/well.

- For my first "bad" rivnut, where I forced a screw in and ended up cross-threading the screw and/or the threads on the rivnut, to the point where I couldn't get the screw out of the rivnut - so I ended up pulling the rivnut through the sheet metal to remove it. If you do need to remove a rivnut for some reason, you can just drill them out using the same bit that you used when installing it - then you can even install a new rivnut in the same hole without issue. This makes it very quick and easy to remove a "bad" rivnut.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

And few more pictures...

These pictures show how well the lead panels can be "shaped" to completely seal any curves in the door holes:

































This one shows how I was able to put the OEM vapor barrier back on, which completely "protects" that electronic box, which actually sinks into the door itself (so no way to "wrap" lead or plastic around it for protection:









Here is what it looked like before I put the OEM vapor barrier back on:









And lastly, what it looked like after I put the OEM vapor barrier back on. Can't even tell we did anything:


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

jtrosky said:


> Here are some further details about the lead sheet installation, the materials I used, the tools I used (including links and prices as of 6/7/2021) and some general notes and leasons-learned along the way. Hopfully, this will come in useful for others that are new to this type of method of sealing up the holes in the doors. I LOVE that I can qucikly and easily remove the panels if/as needed, for whatever reason. It's also thin enough, that you can even put your OEM vapor panel back on over top of it.
> 
> I'm not going to post a detailed procedure of what I did - I'll just recommend the fantastic video by @JI808 from "Batdog Garage" to show you the overall procedure. I'm just going to talk about some of the smaller details not mentioned in the video and some of the issues that I ran into along the way.
> 
> ...



Glad that video was of use to you. There's a learning curve with rivnut installation, but it's nothing to really worry about. Typically if you don't fully compress the rivnut it'll spin in the sheetmetal. If that happens just thread the tool back into the rivnut and have another go at it.

Like you said, if you manage to strip one, just drill it out and install another.

Vacuuming the metal bits. I didn't show that, but it's something I make sure to do.

I used masking tape in the video because I have tons of it here and I'm sure other folks will have it on hand as well. I wanted to show how this could be done with basic materials.

Regarding making them oversized and installing rivnuts on flat surfaces. That's another reason for making the templates with masking tape. You can see where the opening is and how far out you are away from the opening and contours around the opening.

I didn't mention it in the video, but I did press the lead to the panels before marking the rivnut locations.

Regarding your choice of rivnut tools. If you used the drill adapter rivnut tool you could simply set the clutch to the proper setting (with a test piece of scrap) and know that you need to be on say...11 on your drill clutch to get a proper crimp on the rivnut without damaging the mandrel or threads. I highly recommend the *Astro Pneumatic Tool ADN14 Rivet Nut Drill Adapter Kit*. You'll notice that's the one I used in the video. The simplicity of setting the clutch and knowing you have the perfect crimp on the rivnut makes things so much faster than the lever type rivnut tool.


As much as I try to be informative in those videos, there are sometimes things I forget to include. What you guys don't know is that I have near-constant migraines so I'm usually working through a migraine while shooting those vids. I get frustrated when I watch the videos and notice that I've completely left out portions of a sentence because I'm trying to work through the pain. I can also tell how severe they are with the way I'm speaking. You guys probably don't pick up on it, but I can tell when I'm shooting video while feeling like complete ****.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

JI808 said:


> Glad that video was of use to you. There's a learning curve with rivnut installation, but it's nothing to really worry about. Typically if you don't fully compress the rivnut it'll spin in the sheetmetal. If that happens just thread the tool back into the rivnut and have another go at it.
> 
> Like you said, if you manage to strip one, just drill it out and install another.
> 
> ...


Actually, one of the reasons that I like your videos is that you get to the point quickly! So many videos that I watch just love to hear themselves talk - and they go on and on and on and on - just "talking" about things. I like how you get right to it and just talk while you are doing the actual work. I thought that you were very well spoken and very clear!

Just to be clear - I was _not_ in any way, shape or form "criticizing" anything in your video! I just wanted to mention a few thing that I ran into along the way, being a "noob" at this kind of thing - because I'm sure other noobs will run into the same issues. I wouldn't expect you to go over EVERY tiny detail - that is impossible. 

I honestly really like the ABD (same as Astro 1440) "hand" rivnut tool - I really didn't have any issues once I had a proper rivnut tool and a little more experience. Where I had the more serious issues, it was because I was putting a rivnut where it shouldn't have gone - like if the area wasn't perfectly "flat" or where the metal actually changed thickness in the area that the rivnut was located (which wasn't obvious from the front of door). I learned to choose my rivnut locations a little more carefully - and that was kind of my point - not to worry about putting the rivnuts in the little recessed area right at the edge of the holes - sometimes, those areas aren't perfectly level, have things on the back of the door that interfere, etc. Originally, I was trying to make the panels fit into that little recessed "margin" around the hole - and that caused me some grief. 

I think that choosing the rivnut locations - and making sure the holes in the lead and the door matched up perfectly - was probably the hardest part of all this - at least for a noob like myself. However, if you use the proper screws, you can also make the hole in the lead a little bigger if need be in order to get the holes to match up perfectly. The original screws that I used just had heads that were too small. Also - forming the lead to the contours of the hole is very important if the holes that you are sealing have significant contours like mine did (the car in the video had pretty much flat holes, so there wasn't much need for this).

Thanks again for the fantastic videos - I hope you keep making them!


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

jtrosky said:


> Actually, one of the reasons that I like your videos is that you get to the point quickly! So many videos that I watch just love to hear themselves talk - and they go on and on and on and on - just "talking" about things. I like how you get right to it and just talk while you are doing the actual work. I thought that you were very well spoken and very clear!
> 
> Just to be clear - I was _not_ in any way, shape or form "criticizing" anything in your video! I just wanted to mention a few thing that I ran into along the way, being a "noob" at this kind of thing - because I'm sure other noobs will run into the same issues. I wouldn't expect you to go over EVERY tiny detail - that is impossible.
> 
> ...


I'm not worried, man. Constructive criticism is always good. Helps me make improvements for upcoming videos.

I spent years in the military teaching everything from what a series circuit is all the way up to satellite communications. Taught all kinds of stuff. Power supplies, amplifier circuit design and troubleshooting, Power supply design and troubleshooting, digital logic circuits, J STD soldering, fiber optic cable fabrication and fusion splicing, encryption/decryption, all kinds of stuff to classes that would range from 20 people up to hundreds. Taught so much that when I went to college for Electrical Engineering the other students would get upset that I'd just sit in class, not participate, and ace the tests. Ended up helping him teach once they found out why I was just sitting and not participating. 😂

When teaching people like that it's much different than looking at a stupid camera where there's no feedback or interaction. But I've gotten used to it over time. As you can tell, I don't script anything, everything is on the fly. As a result I'll sometimes repeat myself (because I can't focus due to the migraines and want to be sure to include the info) or forget to include bits of info.

That video has a good number of views. More than the other two sound deadening videos. Heck, in the first one where I applied Damplifier Pro and Heat Wave Pro to the floor, I forgot to include application of MLV. Migraine situation and I didn't add that clip to the final version of the video. Still kicking myself in the ass for that one.

My big issue is that I'm more of a "Just the facts" type of person. I don't get excited and all (like Bruce/EXO) but instead just kind of teach through the videos. I used to post progress pictures of things I was doing on Facebook but I found that I'd spend forever having to explain to people that didn't understand what they were seeing how things would work and that their assumptions on the image were wrong. It was a constant barrage of stuff like that. So I moved from posting photo updates on Facebook to just putting out videos that show the process and explain it as I go. Seems to work much better. Has certainly cut down on the people that don't understand what they're looking at telling me that what I'm doing won't work. 😂

I saw that you treated the inside of your outer door skin with Noico. Did you treat the back side of the inner door skin as well? Also curious what your observations were as you applied the lead sheet to the inner door skin. You should be able to hear a difference in the sound of the door as you attach those panels.

When I posted that video I had someone comment about the point where I said I put an additional layer of Overkill (CCF) along the top of the door for that upper lead filler panel. I said in the video that the reason I did that was to get a better seal there. What I left out was that I didn't install rivnuts along the top of that panel because they would've been installed in the brace that spans the top of the door. The comment was that I was wasting my time trying to make the door airtight. That was never the goal. A door will never be airtight - unless you're talking about the Presidential limo or similar.

Another thing - have you used Mega Zorbe inside the door? That stuff works so well that in the winter when your car is frosted up the windows will thaw and the door will remain frozen. The thermal insulation properties are awesome and the sound absorption qualities are nice as well.

Anyway, you're the first person I've seen that has gone through my process. It's good to see that it was a solution for a problem that you've been talking about in this thread - trying to figure out how you were going to attack your doors. In my opinion this is THE way to treat doors because you get the desired results for audio treatment and the door is easily serviceable by either the owner or a tech at the dealership/body shop/whatever.

Also saw your post in this thread about switching from FAST rings to SoundSkins rings. That was a point that I made in that video. Open cell foam isn't the stuff to use to seal the flange to the back side of the door card. Closed cell materials are the way to go. I've also seen silicone rings. I haven't used them but would like to get my hands on some to mess with.

Also - CCF inside a door (talking about the 3-layer products) doesn't do anything. Don't waste your money on those materials when treating inside the door. For some reason I've seen people post videos about using it in the door and talking about the benefit of the thin CCF layer INSIDE the door. There isn't one. None. CCF doesn't absorb like open cell foam. Even if it was open cell foam (like the Mega Zorbe I used) on those 3-layer products, such a thin layer of it will have no acoustic benefit. The discussion about padded dash mats comes to mind here. The wavelength of a given frequency vs the thickness of the dash mat will tell you what freqs the dash mat will help with as far as taming reflections. Not much of a benefit, honestly. Only at very high freqs where people likely have hearing loss anyway. 😂

The approach of just slapping deadener across the entire inner door skin is, in my opinion, archaic and a waste of material. I'd like to get that train of thought to go away. The only benefit I see to it is that it's quick and looks great for getting logos in pictures/video.

For anyone that reads this, it's good to have both styles of rivnut tools. The lever action one has a bit higher learning curve (as OP found out), but the drill adapter is SO easy after you find the right clutch setting for your drill. The drill adapter unit will also fit into places and allow you to install rivnuts where the lever type tool wont - like kick panels. Hard to work in kicks when the lever arms are open and the tool is stupid wide. To be honest I typically only use the drill adapter rivnut tool anymore. It's faster and fits more places than the lever type. If you're wondering which to get, (or only want to spend money on one unit) get the drill adapter unit.


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## 95 993 (Jun 20, 2021)

jtrosky said:


> Here are some further details about the lead sheet installation, the materials I used, the tools I used (including links and prices as of 6/7/2021) and some general notes and leasons-learned along the way. Hopfully, this will come in useful for others that are new to this type of method of sealing up the holes in the doors. I LOVE that I can qucikly and easily remove the panels if/as needed, for whatever reason. It's also thin enough, that you can even put your OEM vapor panel back on over top of it.
> 
> I'm not going to post a detailed procedure of what I did - I'll just recommend the fantastic video by @JI808 from "Batdog Garage" to show you the overall procedure. I'm just going to talk about some of the smaller details not mentioned in the video and some of the issues that I ran into along the way.
> 
> ...


This is amazingly helpful - I was about to do the cover-the-whole-inner-door-with-deadener routine when I found this thread and this video. You've saved me a lot of trouble with this. Thank you!


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Looking at what you did on that Audi door made me wish I'd seen it before doing my doors. I did the drape everything approach and while it's holding up flawlessly without an issue i can see it being a problem if I or anyone has to go in there. Heck i was fretting about what they would do with that stuff when i had to get the door check replaced for being noisy, on both front doors. Turns out the tech was cool and simply removed the speaker assembly to access and replace it. 

I'll say this though, if i end up keeping my car a long time, which is my intention, and i ever need to go in there, I'm doing as you and @jtrosky have done. Already have the rivnut tool anyways. 

I will say i enjoyed you videos! Super detailed. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

THX0849 said:


> *Looking at what you did on that Audi door made me wish I'd seen it before doing my doors.* I did the drape everything approach and while it's holding up flawlessly without an issue i can see it being a problem if I or anyone has to go in there. Heck i was fretting about what they would do with that stuff when i had to get the door check replaced for being noisy, on both front doors. Turns out the tech was cool and simply removed the speaker assembly to access and replace it.
> 
> I'll say this though, if i end up keeping my car a long time, which is my intention, and i ever need to go in there, I'm doing as you and @jtrosky have done. Already have the rivnut tool anyways.
> 
> ...


😂

You would not believe the number of times I've seen people say that they wish they had seen my videos before they did their doors. Pass the word. Share the vid. Let people know that there IS a better way and it's easy to do. I intentionally made sure to show that it's easy with basic tools and masking tape.

The process of applying a big sheet to the door is archaic. We did that crap in the 90's. It's time to move on and do better. The trick is that if the only instructional videos on YouTube are all the same, archaic way of doing things, that's the only easily accessible knowledge people have to reference and they're all going to do it the same, inferior way.

So I took the time to show people that there IS a better way. I also wanted to show in demonstration some of the things that you see discussed here on DIYMA, other forums, and various Facebook groups.

One of those is that you don't need 100% coverage of CLD. That Audi door had factory deader on it near the center of the door. That door also had a couple of SDS tiles on it. Doing a simple knock test I could hear where deadener had been applied.. You could also hear this in the video.

So then I did 100% coverage with Damplifier Pro and did another knock test. You could hear the difference both with the before/after 100% coverage and you could also hear that hollow void at the top of the door where the exterior door skin would "ring" as I tapped on it. 

So...at that point I showed how mineral wool (Rockwool Safe N' Sound) stuffed into that void deadened that exterior section of door skin. It also serves as a sound absorption material to capture airborne noise. 

Then there's the Mega Zorbe in the main door cavity to absorb sound (and provide excellent heat insulation) within the door, the lead, and so on...

Too often we have to sift though the info we're given on the forums. Some of it is good, some isn't. The hard part is knowing what's ******** and what isn't.

My goal with the videos is to show what I'm doing and explain the how and why of what I'm doing and why I'm using the materials where I'm using them. CCF has no benefit inside a door. None. Don't use it there. Waste of money. (I'm talking about the 3-layer products here)

Quick example: How many of you reading this have used FAST Rings in the past or have them in your cars now? I installed them in shops. 

They're open cell. Between open and close cell foam, which of the two better serves to block sound and which best absorbs sound? So...which material is best to keep sound waves from escaping the face of the driver and make sure sound travels only into the listening space?

I had previously installed FAST rings in a car and competed with it. Later we switch to SoundSkins CCF rings. The improvement between the open cell FAST rings and closed cell SoundSkins rings was enough to require a retune of the car.

I don't want to derail jtrosky's thread, but it's good to see people that are "seeing the light" so to speak about how we approach sound treatment in cars and that there's a better way to go about things.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Nobody has to worry about "derailing" this thread. Conversations naturally go in all sorts of different directions, but it's all related to the thread in one way or another. I've never been the type that worried about "off topic" posts - as I don't really consider them to be "off topic" - they are related in some way.  

Going back to the drill adapter vs the hand rivnut tool - I guess that I mistakenly assumed that if I was having issues with too much pressure using the hand tool, that the problem would be even worse with a power drill doing the work. However, I didn't consider the part about using the clutch setting on the drill to control exactly when it stops the process - so that makes sense. I'll have to grab the drill adapter now too.  I really do like the Astro/ABN rivnut tool too though - I love how it's adjustable and how little force it actually requires to compress the rivnuts - completely different experience than the little Tacklife tool I originally used, which, at times, required a _significant_ amount of force to get it to do it's thing. I think it will be nice to have both tools on-hand for different situations. They are inexpensive enough to not be a big deal to have both.

Apparently, I've removed and reinstalled my door panels so many times that I've worn out at least some of the door panel fasteners that Dodge uses (which are very different than the door panel retainers that Chevy uses, at least on the Impala that I have). I was testing a lot of different door midbass speakers early-on, so I was constantly removing and re-installing the door panels. On the Dodge, not only is the male part on the door panel itself cheap plastic, but they also use a cheap plastic "insert" on the door itself, instead of just using a hole in the metal, like my Impala does. Apparently, the little plastic female insert on the door itself is "worn" - and not doing it's job anymore (or it may be the male part on the door panel - or both, I guess). I actually started having this issue before I even installed the lead panels - the panels go on fine, but depending on how hard you close the door, the top of the door panel can come loose when you close it. The little plastic door panel retainers are simply worn out. I have replacements on-hand since I started experiencing this the last time I removed and reinstalled the door panel, so I already knew it needed done - so the next time I take the panels off, I'll replace them so that I don't have to keep pushing the top of the door panels back on to make them tight!  The nice thing is that I can easily remove the lead panels to gain access to the back of the plastic retainers in the door in order to remove them - so I'm already benefitting from the easily-removable panels!!! 

Installing the lead panels is definitely more work than just plastering CLD over everything, but it's a better solution in every way, IMO.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

any end of summer updates? nice build!! still liking the Unity 8.0 ??


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