# Annoying Post on NASIOC.com about Legatia L8



## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

I decided to post the start of my SQ build on NASIOC since I have a Subaru. So this guy decides to thread crap on me. I get so annoyed by people like that. Here is the thread. I will post the build over here too when I get a little further. Those in the know ought to post over there and tell him what an idiot he is.

2005 STi Sound Quality Build Log w/ Hybrid Audio & JL Audio - NASIOC


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

1slysti said:


> I decided to post the start of my SQ build on NASIOC since I have a Subaru. So this guy decides to thread crap on me. I get so annoyed by people like that. Here is the thread. I will post the build over here too when I get a little further. Those in the know ought to post over there and tell him what an idiot he is.
> 
> 2005 STi Sound Quality Build Log w/ Hybrid Audio & JL Audio - NASIOC


Schuey is actually a respected member both here and in the car audio community at-large. His response was a bit harsh, but I've often wondered where Buwalda sources his drivers from.

Edit: Good Luck on your install.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

If you looked at the front they look nearly identical. But from the mounting flange down they are totally different. Not to mention TS pars...


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## donkeypunch22 (Nov 5, 2008)

Yeah, that f#[email protected] sounds like an ingnorant ass. I think he's ESL by the way he writes. Not that it matters, I'm just saying he's a car stereo idiot. Next he's going to post that Jensen amps are the best. 

Nah, nah just relax all! Its just car stereo!


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

On a somewhat related note.....anyone tried those OEM drivers? The motor structure doesn't look half as good as the Hybrids but for $12 they might be cool to try. I wonder what they sound like.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

donkeypunch22 said:


> Yeah, that f#[email protected] sounds like an ingnorant ass. I think he's ESL by the way he writes. Not that it matters, I'm just saying he's a car stereo idiot. Next he's going to post that Jensen amps are the best.


From my understanding, his car kicks serious ass in the lanes.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I'd like to get some more background on the similarities of these drivers from him. I know he's a reputable member so I'm interested to hear what he has to say.


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## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

bassfromspace said:


> From my understanding, his car kicks serious ass in the lanes.


I take nothing from his install abilities. I don't know the guy from anyone but his piss poor judgement on a first post into my build log was uncalled for and unappreciated. You try to show people a nice build and get a thread jack instead. If I had my way we would both delete our posts so it could be the post I intended it to be.


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## rhinodog00 (Jul 1, 2007)

Both have an inverted surround. Other than that I see no resemblance.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

1slysti said:


> I take nothing from his install abilities. I don't know the guy from anyone but his piss poor judgement on a first post into my build log was uncalled for and unappreciated. You try to show people a nice build and get a thread jack instead. If I had my way we would both delete our posts so it could be the post I intended it to be.


I wouldn't sweat it.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> Schuey is actually a respected member both here and in the car audio community at-large. His response was a bit harsh, but I've often wondered where Buwalda sources his drivers from.
> Edit: Good Luck on your install.


Well....I don't think he has the respect of all in the car audio community..........I would say the OP has no respect for him.

I don't think that was cool to vent on the guys build thread. So, he thinks the HAT drivers are sh_t...so what! Move on. The HAT products are no different than any other car audio brand out there....there is *ALWAYS* going to be someone that thinks that brand A or B is SH_T! And brand C or D is just as good or better for less money...Yada, Yada, Yada...go tell ya mudda....You don't have to take a BIG ASS DUMP on a guys build thread to vent your SH_T about a brand that you don't like...And it seems that Buwalda has his share of love and hate in the community. I don't think it is possible to have a name in the game if one did not have that!:laugh:

I am not a HAT fan nor hater but I find it interesting how there is always a brand or product that stirs up the pot....Love them or hate them, the HAT products have made a splash in this BIG ASS car audio pond.


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## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

WLDock said:


> Well....I don't think he has the respect of all in the car audio community..........I would say the OP has no respect for him.
> 
> I don't think that was cool to vent on the guys build thread. So, he thinks the HAT drivers are sh_t...so what! Move on. The HAT products are no different than any other car audio brand out there....there is *ALWAYS* going to be someone that thinks that brand A or B is SH_T! And brand C or D is just as good or better for less money...Yada, Yada, Yada...go tell ya mudda....You don't have to take a BIG ASS DUMP on a guys build thread to vent your SH_T about a brand that you don't like...And it seems that Buwalda has his share of love and hate in the community. I don't think it is possible to have a name in the game if one did not have that!:laugh:
> 
> I am not a HAT fan nor hater but I find it interesting how there is always a brand or product that stirs up the pot....Love them or hate them, the HAT products have made a splash in this BIG ASS car audio pond.


That was exactly my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not a Rockford fan but I don't go crapping on every Rockford product I see used. I really don't have that much time! Nor is it my business.


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## schuey_1 (Nov 11, 2007)

Dude your like kid that tells his mom somebody bullied you in school in this case you go to a different forum to get HELP.

To all the members here theres nothing new to this topic and if you got offended on what i've said then theres nothing else i can do.Lets move on to next topic please


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## schuey_1 (Nov 11, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> I wouldn't sweat it.


I agree.


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## czechm8 (Oct 15, 2008)

Dude, your like the a$$hole that trolls different forums looking to $hit on others' threads!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Thoughts on 11 world championships ? :laugh:

The drivers >

Just for beginners the one you listed uses a Poly cone and a stamped basket. Scotts is a cast frame, has coated paper cone and is a 4 Ohm driver. It is not designed for sealed enclosures as it is a Infinite Baffle design. Go on diymobileaudio.com and tell all of the people there that use this driver how they could buy a $12.00 driver and produce the same results.


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## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

schuey_1 said:


> Dude your like kid that tells his mom somebody bullied you in school in this case you go to a different forum to get HELP.
> 
> To all the members here theres nothing new to this topic and if you got offended on what i've said then theres nothing else i can do.Lets move on to next topic please


You can delete your posts from my build log so it can be just that not a a ***** fest for your i'll will toward scott b. I have nothing to do with that. You put me on the defensive by ****ting on my thread. Why the **** you thought you needed to poke your head in there I don't know. 

As far as being the kid that tells his mommy. I am telling you right to your face. If you lived here in town I'd tell you in person. I even linked this on NASIOC so you have a chance to defend yourself. 

I still haven't seen any proof nor has anyone here defended you. The intent of this post was to see if anyone here would back up your claims. People have said you are a respected member. Thats great and all but still doesn't give anything toward your comments. It would be different if I started a thread that asked what people thought of the L8. Then your comments would have merit although still unfounded.

Guess what NO ONE DID.

Do me a favor and delete your posts on Nasioc so I don't have to let that thread die and start a new one. All I want is a clean thread.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

People tend to act a bit different from place to place, but, being one of the people that keep the audio area of NASIOC up and running, day in and day out, I can say that the knowledge base there is far far less than here... 

Now AFA schuey_1, I can't say, bad day maybe? He's normally not like that... 

However, if you guys are gonna slog both DIYMA and NASIOC through this mud, I will say Schuey DID in fact edit 2 key posts in the nasioc thread... Usually you can look at the edits bit I can't, so I will have to say that they were edited to cover some sort of ignorance... Post 5 and 10... 

Not knowing what was edited, can't say either way, but it sounds like a bleeding Vage on both sides...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

czechm8 said:


> Dude, your like the a$$hole that trolls different forums looking to $hit on others' threads!


That's funny  A build thread is not the place to air a grievance with manufacturer of the builder's gear.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Look guys, sourcing drivers is a little bit like buying hamburgers. There are thousands of factories that build speakers in Asia. For us, only three or four meet our standards of quality and reliability. In any case, some are like McDonalds--they sell the same speakers to everyone and some are like Fuddruckers--you get a healthy piece of meat and a bunch of fresh toppings you can apply as you like. The quality of the driver you get from the McDonalds-like supplier is easy to determine--you can just look at the thousands of other drivers they build to understand precisely what you get. These "burgers" are less costly because there isn't significant engineering to be done--they turn them out one after the other and they're all nearly the same. 

If you buy the driver from the Fuddruckers-like supplier, you either pay them to engineer the driver according to your spec or you do the engineering and they just build it. Many companies choose to do something in-between, relying on the manufacturer's engineers for as much work as possible and taking up the slack with your own engineers in cases where the spec pushes the manufacturer out of his range of competence. 

Almost everyone sources speakers in Asia and the quality can be damn good. It can also suck, but if you're sourcing stuff from other companies, you have to bear the responsibility of quality control. You can do it yourself or you can pay the manufacturer to do it. Quality isn't free in speaker sourcing, in speaker installation or in hamburgers. 

Many speaker manufacaturers have great engineers, but some don't. There are catalogs of standard parts and many of the best speakers are simply the results of makiing the right choices in the use of standard parts with a few tweaks. Because the speaker looks like another one doesn't mean it's the same. Especially in midrange speakers and tweeters. Small changes to cone or dome geometry can make huge differences in sound--and those are tweaks you won't see in a cell phone picture or find adequately documented in some brand-lover's rant about a brand he sees as a competitor. 

If you want great speakers, buy them from a company with great engineers, whether those engineers are employees of the brand or the manufacturer. For consumers, it's much easier to determine whether the brand is well-equipped in the engineering department than it is to determine the technical acumen of the manufacturer. 

Ask the brand how they develop speakers. If they do it the right way, they'll be happy to explain. If they do it the wrong way, they'll feed you some long winded BS about passion and art and wine and cheese and love and a bunch of materials you've never heard of but they'll never offer real documentation and you'll never see any real innovation from them.

The experience you have listening to music through speakers may be similar to drinking great wine and eating the best cheese, but the speaker isn't the wine, it's the wine glass. The music is the wine and cheese. Artists make great music, artisans make great food. Engineers and factories design and make great speakers. 

As Dr. Toole used to say, audio electronics engineering is "science in the service of art".


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

Great post, thanks for the insight ^^^


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ask the brand how they develop speakers. If they do it the right way, they'll be happy to explain. If they do it the wrong way, they'll feed you some long winded BS about passion and art and wine and cheese and love and a bunch of materials you've never heard of but they'll never offer real documentation and you'll never see any real innovation from them.


This truism applies to just about any innovative and quality oriented person or organization. It's almost universally true that anybody who is truly proud of what they are producing is more than happy to tell you about it. Meaningless adjectives and claims that enhanced sensory perceptions are the "secret sauce" of technical development should be a huge red flag.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> Thoughts on 11 world championships ? :laugh:





a$$hole said:


> Go on diymobileaudio.com and tell all of the people there that use this driver how they could buy a $12.00 driver and produce the same results.


They probably could. There is _nothing_ special about the L8. It's an utterly generic driver that happens to also be overpriced. Whoo hoo.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> They probably could. There is _nothing_ special about the L8. It's an utterly generic driver that happens to also be overpriced. Whoo hoo.


Have you ever heard it?

I haven't but I get the feeling you're criticizing just based on specs.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

*'The experience you have listening to music through speakers may be similar to drinking great wine and eating the best cheese, but the speaker isn't the wine, it's the wine glass. The music is the wine and cheese. Artists make great music, artisans make great food. Engineers and factories design and make great speakers."*

Andy, that is simply profound & totally correct... who'd you get that from? Totally agree... just doesn't sound like an engineer/designer talking.... 

I, for one would like to see schuley's(sp) build log... pic of his lane-owning system & his "industry-wide respect"..... I always wonder about these "ghost experts" who sniper-fight...

the NASIOC post was misleading, out of line, & completely an attack on HAT... which I am not a fan of either.. whatever... the nature of the post is the issue...

I don't care if he edited the post 50 times... an azzhole with an axe to grind is an azzhole with an axe to grind... most people who saw the reply were oblivious... they don't know a HAT driver vs a Radio Shack speaker... but got that the reply was out of line...

schulley... just remove the post... you're wrong.. you were being a dick & we have all drunk/dick posted before.. its all good... *IF*you have a legit beef with HAT.. then you should Man up & start a new thread of "I hate HAT cuz......" & quit ****ing on other people's threads....

Rob


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

FG79 said:


> Have you ever heard it?
> 
> I haven't but I get the feeling you're criticizing just based on specs.


He tends to do that...a lot.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I'd just like to say that I've heard the L8's in Foosman's car and they sounded great. If I can get that sound for $24 a pair by going with that OEM driver on madisound I'd be the happiest man alive. 

But I don't think it's even a possibility....


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

FG79 said:


> Have you ever heard it?
> 
> I haven't but I get the feeling you're criticizing just based on specs.


Point being? There are people who believe in magic imbued by designer names and they are people who believe in science. I am in the latter group.

I have, however, seen and held one. The build quality is markedly inferior to a Peerless HDS or CSS Trio8. Yet they cost, if memory serves, about 3x as much as either?



ItalynStylion said:


> I'd just like to say that I've heard the L8's in Foosman's car and they sounded great. If I can get that sound for $24 a pair by going with that OEM driver on madisound I'd be the happiest man alive.
> 
> But I don't think it's even a possibility....


I don't know about that specific drive-unit, but certainly there's nothing about the L8 that would lead a reasonable person to assume that it's automatically going to perform better than a much, much cheaper driver.

And I suspect you've never heard a better driver in that same install with the same tuning methodology. So upon what, exactly, are you basing your opinion?


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## Badmunky (Mar 9, 2009)

Im not going to get in to this argument my self but did want to give you the perspective of the average person that vewed the thread on NASIOC as that is how I found this site.

My vew is that schuey_1 came of as a hater for a Brand I had never herd of and posted a link to a product that only slightly resembled that of what the OP was using in his build. Also that this was not needed or wanted on that forum.
If I was the OP I to would have been upset my self.

I think that schuey_1 should post REAL facts to back his claim or remove his posts.


As for this site, I like it and intend to stay here now.

Later all.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

... back to the artist aspect:

Yesterday I was out on the track again with the scooby boys (co-incidence). This time round, there wasn't just three or four photographers, but rather close on ten.
My wife asked if I was "scared"; I thought about it and realised that the answer is "no". I know what I do and can apply that knowledge in my own way with my desires for specific results and at the end of the day, the same applies whether for photos or an audio system: I'm building it for myself and taking photos for me and to improve my own capabilities, not to sell or get "judged" at an EMMA or IASCA gathering.
So why should I give a toss what someone else thinks? I know there are others taking photos, but TBH the beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Or listener in this case. Technicality can win to a certain extent, but if it's crappily installed, then it really won't sound as good as it could, just like a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS won't magically make your pics great.

The equipment only ever gives you more options to play with, it cannot fundamentally improve your skillz or your pix. 

Bret


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## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Point being? There are people who believe in magic imbued by designer names and they are people who believe in science. I am in the latter group.
> 
> I have, however, seen and held one. The build quality is markedly inferior to a Peerless HDS or CSS Trio8. Yet they cost, if memory serves, about 3x as much as either?
> 
> ...



I hear what you are saying but you cant discount how many competitions Hybrid has won in the last few years..Hybrid is either attracting the best installers with the most knowledge or there is something "magical" about their speakers...If there isnt anything "magical" about their speakers then what attracts all of these great installers to Hybrid if there are multiple other speakers with the same specs and build quality? 

I agree that you have to look at quality, specifications etc when looking at a speakers performance but its not the end all be all..I used to be into sports cars and inevitably I would go to the drag stip and look at the parts someone had on their car and think that it would be a monster only to watch it get beat by someone who had less horsepower in an all out race...The specs are a good guideline but its how everything comes together as a package(weight/horsepower/traction/etc). In my opinion you can look at specs all day long between two devices and have no way of telling the superior sounding item. In my personal opinion HAT found the recipe that I have been looking for, for years...The sound may not be for everyone but it is for me...There is a reason they are winning comps right and left and its up to the individual to figure out why...


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Did I miss something here? I saw the guy post a link to madisound and nothing else.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

tbonez3858 said:


> I agree that you have to look at quality, specifications etc when looking at a speakers performance but its not the end all be all..In my opinion you can look at specs all day long between two devices and have no way of telling the superior sounding item. In my personal opinion HAT found the recipe that I have been looking for, for years...The sound may not be for everyone but it is for me...There is a reason they are winning comps right and left and its up to the individual to figure out why...


Full documentation does, indeed, tell the whole story. In order to make a real judgement based on documentation, you need on-axis and off-axis response plots (or a directivity index), Thiele and Small parameters (for woofers and midrange drivers), a graph showing the fundamental response and 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion. If the distortion graph is horrible, some Kilppel info can help to determine the source of the distortion, but there won't be much you can do about it.That's the full picture. Of course, you have to know WTF all of that means.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Point being? There are people who believe in magic imbued by designer names and they are people who believe in science. I am in the latter group.
> 
> I have, however, seen and held one. The build quality is markedly inferior to a Peerless HDS or CSS Trio8. Yet they cost, if memory serves, about 3x as much as either?
> 
> ...


HAT drivers have a sound that you'll either love or hate. I've never cared for any of the HAT installs I've heard. I love how focal drivers sound in a solid install but others hate the way they sound. This is the reason there's so much great gear to choose from at different price points. Whether it's overpriced or not is up to the person making the purchase. I've heard the L8's in a couple installs and also the sls drivers in one install. Even if the L8's and sls drivers were the same price I'd still choose the sls drivers. The installs all involved well deadened doors. Only thing the L8 has over the sls is it can be used in a 2-way as long as the tweeter can cross in the 2khz range.

One other thing about HAT mids is they're designed to work best ib. I'm sure that has a lot to do with their succuss. Not much you can really mess up in an ib install as long as the BAFFLE is solid and a REAL BAFFLE.


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## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Full documentation does, indeed, tell the whole story. In order to make a real judgement based on documentation, you need on-axis and off-axis response plots (or a directivity index), Thiele and Small parameters (for woofers and midrange drivers), a graph showing the fundamental response and 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion. If the distortion graph is horrible, some Kilppel info can help to determine the source of the distortion, but there won't be much you can do about it.That's the full picture. Of course, you have to know WTF all of that means.



Full documentation tells you how the speaker performs not how it will sound, right?.....Thats really my point. HAT drivers have good specs like many many other vendors...There is something special about HATs sound hence the "magic" and why they are holding so many trophies...Sorry if I didnt explain myself well...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

tbonez3858 said:


> I hear what you are saying but you cant discount how many competitions Hybrid has won in the last few years..


Of course I can.

George W. Bush and Dick Cheney won two elections, one in the Supreme Court in 2000, and one in the American voting public in 2004. Did that tell us anything about their competence?



tbonez3858 said:


> Hybrid is either attracting the best installers with the most knowledge or there is something "magical" about their speakers...


Or they're politically well-connected in that particular world.



tbonez3858 said:


> I used to be into sports cars and inevitably I would go to the drag stip


What the hell do _sports cars_ have to do with a drag strip?



Hillbilly SQ said:


> HAT drivers have a sound that you'll either love or hate.


What you seem to be saying is that they're intentionally colored. That's interesting. It also implies that one could use (often less expensive) better quality components and then use processing to get a similar sound. 



Hillbilly SQ said:


> Even if the L8's and sls drivers were the same price I'd still choose the sls drivers.


From an objective perspective, assuming midbass-only use, the SLS8 is simply a much better designed, higher performing driver than the L8, so your above statement is a no-brainer. Why? Because logically one should be willing to pay more for a superior product than one is willing to pay for an inferior product. 



Hillbilly SQ said:


> One other thing about HAT mids is they're designed to work best ib.


In objective terms, that just means they have weak motors and/or stiff suspensions. Lots of really cheap drivers have weak motors and/or stiff suspensions...


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

WoW, guess I need some popcorn...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> WoW, guess I need some popcorn...


I just said the same thing about this thread on another forum:laugh:


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Is this drivvle spilling over onto yet ANOTHER forum... For crap sake... I hear a lot of "boo hoo'ing"


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

tbonez3858 said:


> Full documentation tells you how the speaker performs not how it will sound, right?.....Thats really my point. HAT drivers have good specs like many many other vendors...There is something special about HATs sound hence the "magic" and why they are holding so many trophies...Sorry if I didnt explain myself well...


There's a direct correlation between the documentation and how a speaker sounds. That's what the documentation is designed to elucidate. There's no correlation between the documentation and how a speaker tastes, whether it's cooked or eaten raw.

The documentation isn't designed to indicate whether you'll like the way the speaker sounds--it's up to you to determine the correlation between your preference and the documentation.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I think we should do a test on those drivers from madisound vs. some L8's. That's the only way we can banish the BS in this thread. I see a lot of talk but no one backing anything up with proof or factual evidence.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Other way is to just get Scott to say who manufactured and where. Have him explain everything he did in the design process or how they where designed. Other than getting an actual test done of each driver and not in a car door. As the car door is still a subjective test and can still be argued over.

I still find it funny that so many people get upset over the HAT driver's. If you like them run them if you don't then don't run them. Seems pretty simple to me vs. so many people always acting butt hurt when something about the HAT drivers pops up.


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## czechm8 (Oct 15, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There's a direct correlation between the documentation and how a speaker sounds. That's what the documentation is designed to elucidate.


Except that most manufacturers provide their own testing and documentation. Even if said drivers were tested/compared in the exact same lab/environmental conditions, the results would still only indicate the Potential performance under the exact same conditions.
Price is mostly irrelevant since it is a function of supply/demand. Not of universally accepted quality or performance.

The right driver for the installation/environment will win every time regardless of price or popularity...........................then again, the judges are still human!


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Damn this forum has changed (in a good way). Few years ago it was all numbers and didn't even want to discuss actually listening to a driver. Now people are asking who has listened to the driver (not just held and looked at it).


Nice.


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## CGG318 (Apr 9, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Of course I can.
> 
> George W. Bush and Dick Cheney won two elections, one in the Supreme Court in 2000, and one in the American voting public in 2004. Did that tell us anything about their competence?


Ahhh, good to see you back DS-21. I was getting concerned about you. I thought maybe you came down with a fatal case of priapism following the inauguration.


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## czechm8 (Oct 15, 2008)

CGG318 said:


> I thought maybe you came down with a fatal case of priapism following the inauguration.


LOL! There's a lot of that going around!


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## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Of course I can.
> 
> George W. Bush and Dick Cheney won two elections, one in the Supreme Court in 2000, and one in the American voting public in 2004. Did that tell us anything about their competence?


No it tells us that they were the best choice at the time....Just like the Hybrids had the best showings at those contests on those days..Hybrids are well respected in the audio community and at contests if you dont like them thats ok by me.




DS-21 said:


> Or they're politically well-connected in that particular world....


That particular world happens to be the world itself. They have had huge success in America, UK etc...





DS-21 said:


> What the hell do _sports cars_ have to do with a drag strip?


There are two places to take a sports car to test performance. One is the track the other is the drag strip..Many many sport car enthusiast (even those that spend most of their time at the tracks) will hit the strip to legally race their friends or to see results from new mods..If you go to any drag strip I would say that 1/2 of the action is street legal sports cars...Or at least the ones around me. 


You seem to have rolled out of the bed on the wrong side this morning..We all love the same hobby so relax. I dont think anyone is attacking you for your personal preference. If it came across that way I know I didnt intend it. I try not to be a fan boy of any company. I do know I like the hybrid sound and quality..Its sounds different to me and if its not what you like so be it....Theres no arguing they are a good driver but there are plenty of good drivers out there...So lets not get into a pissing match over it.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

but I think he has a very valid point. If you can tell a driver by listening to it, then theoretically it's doing something wrong. It should be an "invisible" transducer, no? or what are you aiming for?

I am surprised by the success of the HATs, but: there may well be something in it. Nice drivers, easy to work with, usage, an involved designer, and communication with the users such that they get the support they need to execute excellently. 
Now, I'll admit that HAT is a car-audio company first and foremost, and also one that has not done Subs to my mind; I've looked at the L8 and decided against it because of the price. Maybe you're paying for ease of use?

Bret


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

If anyone cares, the madisound oem 8's are not horrible for the price.

The midbass was weak and muddy. Upper end extension is limited to probably around 500hz. Accuracy was okay

I blame the results on a poor install, totally untreated doors with wide, gaping holes blocked only by the plastic-sheet vapor barrier and ran off an old alpine cassette head unit power. My sister blew the stockers in her beater dodge neon and needed a replacement.

In a proper setup they could easily be the best "budget" 8" midbass out there. I mean they made noise and have the potential to sound good - and they're only $12 a pop. I have 8 more to play with when I get time


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

czechm8 said:


> Except that most manufacturers provide their own testing and documentation. Even if said drivers were tested/compared in the exact same lab/environmental conditions, the results would still only indicate the Potential performance under the exact same conditions.
> Price is mostly irrelevant since it is a function of supply/demand. Not of universally accepted quality or performance.
> 
> The right driver for the installation/environment will win every time regardless of price or popularity...........................then again, the judges are still human!


 
That package of documentation is standard for engineers and is collected in much the same way no matter the manufacturer (if it's collected). If you understand the application, then the documentation should get you most of the way to choosing the right driver. If your M.O. is to choose a driver that has deficiencies that compliment the acoustic properties of the car, then the documentation should help with that. 

It would probably be less time consuming and less expensive to learn about the documentation and ask for it than it is to try a thousand different drivers until you find the best compliment to the horrible acoustic space that is your car. However, if it's trial and error you use with no documentation, no testing and no verification that isn't based in prose written from a totally subjective point of view, then you can claim to be an expert and to be endowed by God with a heightened sensitivity to the quality of scientifically-designed devices. Then you'll be like all of those Golden-Eared M.F.s who buy and sell $1000 power cables, directional RCAs and little wishbone-looking stands for your speaker wire. You'll have to learn a whole new vocabulary to describe audio performance--words like chocolaty, strident, bloomy and so on and so forth. Fortunately, there are plenty of magazines that are loaded with examples of that kind of B.S. to get you started.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Full documentation does, indeed, tell the whole story. In order to make a real judgement based on documentation, you need on-axis and off-axis response plots (or a directivity index), Thiele and Small parameters (for woofers and midrange drivers), a graph showing the fundamental response and 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion. If the distortion graph is horrible, some Kilppel info can help to determine the source of the distortion, but there won't be much you can do about it.That's the full picture. Of course, you have to know WTF all of that means.


I'm going to wholeheartedly agree with you, with some additional comments to help support.

Probably the most telling graph in judging how a speaker will perform is the harmonic distortion plot. It's also the one that's missing in almost ALL manufacturer supplied graphs. Zaph, Mark K, and many others have made names for themselves by testing and posting these graphs. 

I will contend that there is a huge point of diminishing returns in car audio beyond any other medium (other than live performance pro audio). There's just a point where top level HD performance just isn't necessary in a car. We can get away with a cheaper driver, with a bit more HD. This is especially true when driving down the expressway at 70 mph. 

Now get in the lanes, and things change. However, the car is still a volume of acoustical nastiness. I'm not entirely up to speed on how judges are trained, but I do know that in competitions, HD analysis just isn't there. If you have larger audible F3 distortion, you'll probably lose points, but F2 can be hugely subjective. F3 can usually be controlled with notch filters, given the peak isn't right smack in the middle of the driver's usable bandwidth. There are proponents out there for higher F2 distortion. The argument ensues whether distortion is distortion and should be avoided, or if "some" distortion is desirable. That's purely subjective. However, since F2 can be measured, YOU CAN tell by a graph how a driver will fundamentally sound. Given you have experience, and the knowledge to interpret it based on other models. 

So, people spouting off that you can't tell on paper how a driver will sound are generally too lazy to learn how to interpret graphs, or take measurements of their own. Now, since it is a car, and we're dealing with a hostile acoustic environment, we can assume that a driver's response will change. THAT IS THE CAR, not the speaker itself. 

I for one, can handle a bit higher F2 if the cost of the driver justifies it. Higher F2 takes away clarity, and adds the "warmth" term that audiophiles like to use. I prefer paper cones to metal. I really like glass cones, and generally stay away from poly. Cone material has quite a bit to do with "timbre". Again, timbre can be predicted by cone material. Just like guitars and various woods, different cone materials will produce a different timbre.

I'll go back to the Vifa PL18. It's a really nice driver and when they cost around $50.00 per, it was a favorite of mine. It couldn't really compete with the Scan Revelator in distortion performance, but for a 1/4 of the price, it was a compromise I could easily make when said drivers would be put in a car. Now, the Vifa PL18 is $90.00 a pop and is between a 1/2 and 1/3 the price of a Revelator. So, it lost a lot of value. However, when considering comparable drivers, the Usher 8945 comes into the equation only slightly more than the Vifa PL, with Revelator distortion performance. New kid on the block for me. Yes, I can tell all that on paper. I know what I have to sacrifice if I use the Usher 8945 over the Revelator, but it's also worth the $100.00 or so that I save. 

So, if the HAT drivers exhibit a bit higher F2, but low F3, then that's okay. There are some that will prefer that. They have a paper cone, and I know I like that. If those aren't your preferences, then it's on YOU to figure out why. It's called educating yourself. However, in my case, I know where I can find plenty of paper coned drivers with low harmonic distortion for a fraction of the price of a Hybrid driver. 

The next step is on me to make whatever driver I choose work in my particular application. That's what it all really comes down to in the end. That's where the top end competitors excel.

The first thing people need to stop doing is listening to marketers (sorry Andy). The top competitors are not using driver's they're choosing. They're sponsored and at the mercy of the sponsor in which drivers they will use. They have some input, making it a team effort, but you all need to understand that it is a team. It's not one guy going into a store, buying a set of speakers off a wall and making them work exceptionally in their vehicle.

Every driver has sacrifices, and in car audio, it's understanding those sacrifices within this particular medium and finding out what you can live with. Trust me, you can do it for a lot less than $200.00 per driver.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

corrected / extended:


> Every piece of equipment has sacrifices, and in everything you do, it's about understanding those sacrifices within this particular medium and function and finding out what you can live with.
> Trust me, you can do it for a lot less than you think.


this applies to soooo much. Audio, Video, Computing, Cars, Photography.... you don't compliment the chef on his pots and pans, you compliment him on the meal, no?

thanks for that MVM 

Bret


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

I'd also like to point out at this point that at the weekend, the 300hp+ Evo 8 was slower round the track than many of the well-driven, correctly-tyred smaller-engined stuff. Where there was the opportunity for power, he was quick. 

Using the magic number "track time"... 

Horses for courses.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> HAT drivers have a sound that you'll either love or hate. I've never cared for any of the HAT installs I've heard.
> 
> I've heard the L8's in a couple installs and also the sls drivers in one install. Even if the L8's and sls drivers were the same price I'd still choose the sls drivers. The installs all involved well deadened doors. Only thing the L8 has over the sls is it can be used in a 2-way as long as the tweeter can cross in the 2khz range.
> 
> One other thing about HAT mids is they're designed to work best ib. I'm sure that has a lot to do with their succuss. Not much you can really mess up in an ib install as long as the BAFFLE is solid and a REAL BAFFLE.


You've also never actually USED a HAT driver, have you?  You know I cannot let you get away with this. 

Oh and "well deadened doors?" Riiiiight..... where's my Ensoheavy Alivener when you need it. 

That OEM mid looks interesting, but I bet the dust cap becomes a missile if you try to run it like the L8. The L8 is a beast IME.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

MiniVanMan said:


> The first thing people need to stop doing is listening to marketers (sorry Andy). The top competitors are not using driver's they're choosing. They're sponsored and at the mercy of the sponsor in which drivers they will use. They have some input, making it a team effort, but you all need to understand that it is a team. It's not one guy going into a store, buying a set of speakers off a wall and making them work exceptionally in their vehicle.


Agreed with the listening to marketers thing. I'm a marketer, but I'm not a liar and I'm always happy to back up my statements with documentation and to admit when I'm wrong or when I'm out of my league. I like to learn too and the only way to learn is to admit that you don't know everything.

BTW, many of the top competitors are using plenty of EQ.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Look guys, sourcing drivers is a little bit like buying hamburgers. There are thousands of factories that build speakers in Asia. For us, only three or four meet our standards of quality and reliability. In any case, some are like McDonalds--they sell the same speakers to everyone and some are like Fuddruckers--you get a healthy piece of meat and a bunch of fresh toppings you can apply as you like. The quality of the driver you get from the McDonalds-like supplier is easy to determine--you can just look at the thousands of other drivers they build to understand precisely what you get. These "burgers" are less costly because there isn't significant engineering to be done--they turn them out one after the other and they're all nearly the same.



I like McDonald's. And I like Fuddrucker's. McD's is close. I have to drive 2+ hours to get to the nearest Fuddy's. 

What does that mean? 


I have no idea.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> I like McDonald's. And I like Fuddrucker's. McD's is close. I have to drive 2+ hours to get to the nearest Fuddy's.
> 
> *What does that mean? *


That means you'll really go out of your way for bigger, juicier meat.  Sinner.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

_It means that sometimes Mickey-Ds is good enough and sometimes it's worth the drive to get something better. I used to make an occasional 3-hour trip (each way) to Wooster St. in New Haven for a Pizza at Sally's. _


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## Jtejedor (Dec 19, 2008)

Man that must have been some good pizza


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

My problems with just looking at graphs and number is I've yet to see a test that can not be "modified" to get the result the tester wants. 

It wasn't to long ago when this very forum pointed to tests done on Hybrid speakers to "prove" that Hybrid speakers sounded like ass. A few years later people actually took the time to listen to the speakers and suddenly people on here actually recommend them. 

The number of people I trust without verifying for myself is extremely small.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

^^ now that's reasonable. At the end of the day, the system should sound good to you or to some judges who might see the car once?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Both. 

It sounds good to me, but judges don't have the blood, sweat, tears, and retirement account invested in the system--so they can point out things I wouldn't hear without them. I'm not saying I always agree with a judge, but more times than not, they point out ways to make the system even better. Other than the people, that is the biggest reason to compete---it makes your system better (to you).


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> The number of people I trust without verifying for myself is extremely small.


Rings true for me too.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

> My problems with just looking at graphs and number is I've yet to see a test that can not be "modified" to get the result the tester wants.


 What tests are you talking about?

Are you suggesting that npdang, Zaph, and Mark K. have hidden agendas?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Sometimes I just want to bitchslap Andy (Jones)! This is NOT one of those times 

All tests can be "gamed" if the tester has an agenda. The problem is that typically car audio consumers are content with part of the story (a small subset of the measurements necessary to predict performance). Combine that with what a car audio environment does to a response curve and shady salesmanship and you end up with what we have today. A MESS.

We as consumers need to reward those companies that provide accurate and complete measurements and those gaming the tests and providing partial information would disappear quickly.

Stepping off of my soap box now...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> My problems with just looking at graphs and number is I've yet to see a test that can not be "modified" to get the result the tester wants.
> 
> It wasn't to long ago when this very forum pointed to tests done on Hybrid speakers to "prove" that Hybrid speakers sounded like ass. A few years later people actually took the time to listen to the speakers and suddenly people on here actually recommend them.
> 
> The number of people I trust without verifying for myself is extremely small.


That's really not a fair characterization of the ests and the discussion that followed.


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> Damn this forum has changed (in a good way). Few years ago it was all numbers and didn't even want to discuss actually listening to a driver. Now people are asking who has listened to the driver (not just held and looked at it).
> 
> Nice.


I agree, most of the people who believed in science and had a working knowledge of physics and acoustics have left.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> My problems with just looking at graphs and number is I've yet to see a test that can not be "modified" to get the result the tester wants.
> 
> It wasn't to long ago when this very forum pointed to tests done on Hybrid speakers to "prove" that Hybrid speakers sounded like ass. A few years later people actually took the time to listen to the speakers and suddenly people on here actually recommend them.
> 
> The number of people I trust without verifying for myself is extremely small.


You have to understand that a lot of the original opinions on this board had a large percentage going toward "price to performance". That's where a lot of the HAT hate began. There's no reason to hate HAT, but we can definitely argue price to performance. 

Also, you are one of the few out there that actually does you own testing. That gives you one hell of a leg to stand on when making your trust comment. I completely agree with you by the way. However, you've been around for a very long time and offer advice that you expect people to "trust" themselves. I do it, npdang does it, chad does it, etc, etc. We all do it. Ultimately though, I think it's really our responsibility to encourage others to learn what the numbers mean, and test equipment themselves, in their own applications. That's what this site was founded on. That's why there was such a rift in the beginning between old school car audio guys, manufacturers, etc, and a lot of members here.

Now you're saying that you don't trust very many people, but exclaim that people claiming HAT drivers are the greatest, with no objective analysis, are to be trusted. That's confusing me.

We can operate this site one of two ways. We can offer objective analysis, with testing, and documentation. Or, we can offer subjective analysis only, and work through word of mouth. In audio, the two have never gotten along. Marketers would usually rather see the word of mouth method, where they can use fancy words to describe their product. Then there are others that feel they have nothing to hide and put it all out there. 

So, when you say that you don't trust very many people without testing yourself, you fall into the category of an experienced, knowledgeable individual that understands the consequences. When you expect others to just accept your word or the word of others, you become a hypocrite. 

Since I know you're better than that, and do have the knowledge at hand to teach newcomers to the hobby the "right" way to do things, I would expect you to work on creating an "objective standard" rather than a "subjective one". 

THAT'S what this site was founded on.

HAT really started gaining share on this board when members from other forums started coming over here. These are people that don't do their own testing and have only tried HAT drivers via word of mouth after starting threads, "What's the best speaker for my car" threads. Their listening experience is very limited and the HAT drivers being good drivers will sway many people. It's not until we get into the real nuts and bolts of things that we start to make objective analysis and can really compare different drivers.

So, there will always be a level of "show me proof" on this board. When it comes time to shell out several hundreds of dollars on a speaker, I think it's very fair to do so.

What it ultimately comes down to is, I'd rather solve for just "X" in the car audio equation than "X", "Y", and "Z". If I know and understand with a certain degree of certainty (we can never be positive) how my driver will behave, I take that out of the equation and I'm now focusing on the acoustic properties of the car itself. 

It's funny that DIY loudspeaker builders (of repute that is), will always test their drivers before designing the loudspeaker. A loudspeaker is in a much more controlled environment than a car, but the typical car audio enthusiast, where DIY is more prevalent, will operate on word of mouth and "hope for the best". 

That seems extremely backwards to me. Just because it's a car doesn't mean we can't apply science to the applications within.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

tbonez3858 said:


> No it tells us that they were the best choice at the time....Just like the Hybrids had the best showings at those contests on those days..Hybrids are well respected in the audio community and at contests if you dont like them thats ok by me.


You mean, if the same kind of people who think they can hear differences in wires and amps "well respect" the things, you actually think their opinions carry any merit whatsoever? Wow.



tbonez3858 said:


> There are two places to take a sports car to test performance. One is the track the other is the drag strip..


That presumes one finds "performance" to be important in a sports car driven primarily on public roads. Some of us prefer feel to numbers in a car.



tbonez3858 said:


> If you go to any drag strip I would say that 1/2 of the action is street legal sports cars...Or at least the ones around me.


Really? You see real sports cars, Lotus 7's and Elises, Miatae, Toyota MR2's, MG's, Alfa Spiders, etc. at drag strips? Or is what you really mean is that you see overweight, overpowered porkers at drag strips. 

Well, not having been to a drag strip in over a decade, I don't have any evidence to rebut your claim, bizarre as it sounds.



tbonez3858 said:


> I dont think anyone is attacking you for your personal preference. If it came across that way I know I didnt intend it. I try not to be a fan boy of any company.


I couldn't care less if someone was "attacking" me for my personal preference. Because for one thing I gave no personal preference, except for preferences for modern design over antiquated design and high fidelity over coloration. If someone doesn't share those preferences, I don't much care.



tbonez3858 said:


> Theres no arguing they are a good driver


Many of their fans (yourself included) have made the argument that they are not objectively good drivers, by pointing to their innate coloration. That's not to say one can't prefer colored sound over accurate sound, of course.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> I like McDonald's. And I like Fuddrucker's. McD's is close. I have to drive 2+ hours to get to the nearest Fuddy's.
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...


You love a mouth full of meaty substance? Ghey!:laugh:


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## donkeypunch22 (Nov 5, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That package of documentation is standard for engineers and is collected in much the same way no matter the manufacturer (if it's collected). If you understand the application, then the documentation should get you most of the way to choosing the right driver. If your M.O. is to choose a driver that has deficiencies that compliment the acoustic properties of the car, then the documentation should help with that.
> 
> It would probably be less time consuming and less expensive to learn about the documentation and ask for it than it is to try a thousand different drivers until you find the best compliment to the horrible acoustic space that is your car. However, if it's trial and error you use with no documentation, no testing and no verification that isn't based in prose written from a totally subjective point of view, then you can claim to be an expert and to be endowed by God with a heightened sensitivity to the quality of scientifically-designed devices. Then you'll be like all of those Golden-Eared M.F.s who buy and sell $1000 power cables, directional RCAs and little wishbone-looking stands for your speaker wire. You'll have to learn a whole new vocabulary to describe audio performance--words like chocolaty, strident, bloomy and so on and so forth. Fortunately, there are plenty of magazines that are loaded with examples of that kind of B.S. to get you started.



Andy, I think I love you. Let's get married... oh and bring a proto-type of MS-8 to our honeymoon so I can hook it up to my/our system.


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## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

DS-21 I think you need to stick to audio. You definitely don't sound intelligent when it comes to sports cars. If you really think you will see a Lotus or Miata at a drag strip well that is just laughable. Not to say the won't be there or shouldn't but they are far from the norm. I also don't understand your thinking that someone buys a performance car for its "feel". It should be fast. You being a man of scientific faith should understand that a dyno or drag strip is a way to be sure the things you are doing are proven and working the way you intend.

As the OP I never intended this to become a pissing match over why HAT isn't a great value. First of all you all have no idea what I paid for them. So value is only based for those that are anti-HAT on retail pricing. Not that it matters anyhow. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what sounds good.

I read a lot of reviews on HAT drivers anywhere I could find both good and bad. I objectively looked at what everyone that used these drivers had to say. There surely was a lot more good than bad. I then contacted Scott B. to ask him some questions before I bought. He answered every question I had within 24 hours of me asking it. He gave me advice on my install and design ideas to get the most out of my build. This is all before I paid for anything. That alone is worth more to me. I put value in being able to pick up the phone and get some advice in a bind. Does it hurt that I will now be using his products? Absolutely not. The speakers I chose really filled a need I had and put me outside the norm of products I sell for a living. That is exciting to me. 

Let me remind you this all started because someone **** on my build log!!!!!


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## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

Double Post!


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^^from way back up.

I don't expect anyone to trust what I say without testing. Doing so is completely ignorant. If you don't know me personally and don't know how I hear things (and agree with that) you shouldn't trust me.

I offer advice, but I still expect people to test for themselves. Blindly following mine (or anyone else's you don't know personally) is just stupid. There are some people who give lots of advice whose cars I have heard and thought they sounded like total ass---yet they give a LOT of advice on forums. 

Read forums for general information, but that is about it. After that every poster should do their own testing to determine for themselves which direction to go.

I buy tons of drivers. I listen to them in tons of different applications. That is how what is in my car got to my car. It damn sure wasn't because of graphs or testing done by internet personalities and it wasn't recommendations by internet personalties. 

So when you see me recommend a driver or an install technique---it is coming from experience (not graphs, machines, or some other forum), but I still would expect whoever is reading it to do their own testing to come to their own conclusion.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

1slysti said:


> DS-21 I think you need to stick to audio. You definitely don't sound intelligent when it comes to sports cars. If you really think you will see a Lotus or Miata at a drag strip well that is just laughable.


You sound like the kind of person who thinks a piggish, overpowered GT such as a 370Z is a "sports car." I have a more purist definition.



1slysti said:


> I also don't understand your thinking that someone buys a performance car for its "feel".


Note your scope shift from "sports car" to "performance car." Any old turd can be made fast, with modern engine and tire technology. That doesn't mean it won't drive like a bloody lorry at civil speeds compared to a car designed to be an extension of the driver.



1slysti said:


> It should be fast. You being a man of scientific faith should understand that a dyno or drag strip is a way to be sure the things you are doing are proven and working the way you intend.


Actually, I'm a raging subjectivist. I'm just not an idiot who settles for overpriced, inferior parts or who believes against all serious evidence that commodity parts such as amps, wires, and digital sources have any innate "sound quality," that's all.


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## Ttowncls (Apr 14, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> You mean, if the same kind of people who think they can hear differences in wires and amps "well respect" the things, you actually think their opinions carry any merit whatsoever? Wow.


People can hear differences in amps and wire. That difference is also measureable. Wires have different RLC values depending on design. If those differences are large enough, you will hear a difference. Amplifiers can have different frequency response curves. If those differences are enough, you will hear a difference. These are scientific facts that can and have been proven. Will you hear a difference between most high end amps or wire? I doubt it, but it's entirely possible if the measured performance specifications vary enough. 





DS-21 said:


> Many of their fans (yourself included) have made the argument that they are not objectively good drivers, by pointing to their innate coloration. That's not to say one can't prefer colored sound over accurate sound, of course.


You call it colored sound. It is colored sound, but that coloration may have been to improve the "in car" response curve. So the so called "colored" sound is actually accurate in the car. I don't see a problem with that. 



1slysti said:


> I also don't understand your thinking that someone buys a performance car for its "feel". You being a man of scientific faith should understand that a dyno or drag strip is a way to be sure the things you are doing are proven and working the way you intend.


I have owned many sports cars, sports coupes, and touring cars. I would say "feel" was just as important as the "numbers". That's both subjective and objective. 



1slysti said:


> I read a lot of reviews on HAT drivers anywhere I could find both good and bad. I objectively looked at what everyone that used these drivers had to say. There surely was a lot more good than bad. I then contacted Scott B. to ask him some questions before I bought. He answered every question I had within 24 hours of me asking it. He gave me advice on my install and design ideas to get the most out of my build. This is all before I paid for anything. That alone is worth more to me. I put value in being able to pick up the phone and get some advice in a bind. Does it hurt that I will now be using his products? Absolutely not. The speakers I chose really filled a need I had and put me outside the norm of products I sell for a living. That is exciting to me.


 That was a very smart way to purchase speakers if you couldn't hear them in person. I've only met Scott once. I can say he loves his cars and his company, and wouldn't risk his reputation on junk. That's just the impression I get from him. True customer service is hard to find these days and counts for a lot in my book. I don't own any Hybrid speakers, nor have I ever owned any. They are on my list of drivers I would use though. 



1slysti said:


> Let me remind you this all started because someone **** on my build log!!!!!


I read the post, and have no idea why someone would feel compelled to do that in a build log. Are there speakers that sound as good for far less money? Probably. Would the owner of those companies speak with you about your application and give you advice? I highly doubt it. You paid extra for service, knowledge, and continued support. I see nothing wrong with that. 

You did start a very good discussion whether you intended to or not.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> Damn this forum has changed (in a good way). Few years ago it was all numbers and didn't even want to discuss actually listening to a driver. Now people are asking who has listened to the driver (not just held and looked at it).
> 
> 
> Nice.


A long overdue trend if you asked me and still nowhere where it needs to be.

I will argue that if you're strictly a #s person with no regard to actually listening to the equipment, then you're a soul-less machine, not an audio enthusiast/audiophile. Same goes with the car guys who evaluate cars strictly on 1/4 mile times and skidpad/slalom #s. 

I've said before that science and engineering are important, but whenever you interface any piece of engineered equipment whether it be cars, stereos, to a human being for the sake of evaluating it's "pleasure value" then there is more to it than the #s. If emotions are involved, the stakes are raised.

What I'd love to see would be a speaker shootout between a few high end manufacturers, and I'd like the judges to be a bunch of non audiophile women. Women who have *0* knowledge of sound.....and who prefer to stay that way. Best to choose women who listen to good, well recorded music as opposed to teeny bopper, compressed garbage. Age range...20s-40s. 

You'd be surprised at the results. They won't get their panties in a knot like the men would. 

I'm serious, I'd really like to see this done. It could also just be sound systems in general....one car versus the other.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^^from way back up.
> 
> I don't expect anyone to trust what I say without testing. Doing so is completely ignorant. If you don't know me personally and don't know how I hear things (and agree with that) you shouldn't trust me.
> 
> ...


Okay, we can agree on most of that. However, the casual enthusiast doesn't have the resources to try 10 different speakers to find out what works best in their application. But, they can get a pretty good idea based on data, given it's from a reliable source. It still ultimately comes down to install, but narrowing the field down in the beginning is extremely valuable to a lot of people. 

By all means question the source of the data to your hearts content. That's another learning curve in this hobby. Who's reliable and who's not. Not all manufacturers are reliable, and not all with advice are reliable. In fact, the closer you're tied to the industry, the less likely I'm going to just take your word on something. 

Should people do their own testing when they can? Absolutely. When that's not available, finding a resource that's independent of the industry is a really good start. Finding a resource that has a consistent testing methods, and is unbiased can be a great tool for an enthusiast. 

I'll never put as much money into a car as you have. Just ain't gonna happen. I'm also not going to invest the time into a car that you have. Not even close. I also invest a crapload more time into this hobby than the average enthusiast, which puts me somewhere in the middle. I've found value in doing my own testing. I've also found others that I can rely on for consistent data, and objective analysis. I also hate spoon feeding, even though my posts are long winded. 

So, your statement about this site being about nothing but the numbers in the past is a bit unfair. I can say that ECA used to be about loud mouthed, sponsored competitors spouting off how great a particular driver was without offering any objective analysis, and just expecting people to take their words for it. In fact, we still see that attitude. "I compete, so you need to listen to me". It's bull ****. Experience is experience, and that is valuable. However, if you can't relay you experience objectively, and scientifically, it begs the question how well you really know your stuff. This statement isn't aimed at you Andy, just a generalization on competitors. 

Every time I hear the question "how many trophies have you won?", I want to throw myself down a flight of stairs. If the only thing you have to offer to a scientific debate is "I have a trophy", then you're really not that useful to the debate. 

This site was founded on the idea of people trying and testing their own drivers. It was encouraged to try things nobody else has tried. It was built to either justify the boners of the month, or refute them based on actual data, and not just word of mouth. 

So, you just saw data, but then again, you never really hung out here. It's kind of like thinking your neighbors are doing very well financially because they have a couple of nice cars, but not really knowing that they're mortgaged to the gills, and up to their eyeballs in debt.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Ttowncls said:


> People can hear differences in amps and wire. That difference is also measureable. Wires have different RLC values depending on design. If those differences are large enough, you will hear a difference. Amplifiers can have different frequency response curves. If those differences are enough, you will hear a difference.


Lots of can's there. Thing is, there's a phrase for stuff that's not designed for flat response in the audible band: incompetently designed. Most stuff today is competently designed.



Ttowncls said:


> You call it colored sound. It is colored sound, but that coloration may have been to improve the "in car" response curve. So the so called "colored" sound is actually accurate in the car. I don't see a problem with that.


I don't have a problem with anyone's preferences. But when you start talking about accuracy you simply must back that up with measurements. And I see none.



FG79 said:


> A long overdue trend if you asked me and still nowhere where it needs to be.


Yes, by all means let us go back to the days when people thought the earth was flat and spent their days trying to turn lead to gold. Big ****ing step forward.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

That post on nasioc reminds me of a certain 'I hate pizza hut' poster in my ipod dock thread right here on Diyma... at least that one got cleaned up by the mods, for which I thank them.





bikinpunk said:


> I like McDonald's. And I like Fuddrucker's. McD's is close. I have to drive 2+ hours to get to the nearest Fuddy's.
> 
> What does that mean?


mcdonalds appears clean, tastes decent and cost $1. And everyone grew up eating there so they are everywhere.

fuddys in every city i;ve ever been to, is full of snotnosed kids and adults wiping their noses with their hands and then grabbing lettuce tomato etc with the same hands. Sneezing on the condiments, scratching their balls and asses, taking a dump in a dirty bathroom and coming back to root thru the condiments again sans sanitation, joys of great masses of unwashed 'local gentry' playing at food prep... which apparently is the core of their business, you get to play food prep.

The meat tastes like school cafeteria stuff, just like carls jr does. For this I wait for 20 minutes or more and pay 5x as much... for a piece of meat on a bun.


This means when I want a quick and cheap burger, i go to mcdonalds and the drive thru, instead of the Puddfucker's accross the street from it.


Or I make my own with sausage, ground steak, a little parsley and some salt n pepper which requires no additional condiments... Rare to medium rare, juicy, filling, and delicious... and which hasn't had someone else's dirty hands on it.
Or I go to BJs and they'll leave my burger so rare it is purple if I ask.


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## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

I started to respond to each point in all of this craziness and then I stopped myself...I find it laughable that in the world of audio (home and car) there is such an elitist attitude...My question for you elitist is do you get in your car in the morning and pat yourself on the back because the sound your car audio makes looks good on a graph or because it sounds good to you? I heard HATs and liked what they sounded like. I've heard hundreds of different drivers and never found one the way that I like it to sound. That is until I heard HATs. Does that mean some of the other drivers dont have better specs in all of the years I have been auditioning drivers? Maybe or even probablly not. Does that make me an "ignorant" consumer because I didnt test the driver and bench mark it against a 100 other drivers but rather base my decision on the way the drivers sounded to me? In one respect yes its an ignorant decision and in one respect no its not an ignorant decision...Im not going to say that I wont test a few drivers out some day for fun or that I wont search this site for some of the test NPDANG has done..Im not saying that I wont learn a lot from these efforts. If I find a driver that has better specs and does not SOUND as good to ME do you think I will put it in my car? The only thing a graph will ever do is convince me LISTEN to a speaker and add it to my compare list...Call that decision ignorance..call it coloring..call me an uneducated SOB but thats where it stands...Outside of the graphs and the hype HATs stuff sounds good to a lot of people. It has a warm tingley concerty feel that a lot of people and judges appear to love..So if its subjective then all of the judges and all of the people that chose HAT could be dead wrong or dead right....


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I chewed through countless boner drivers that people on this forum recomended. Got a good deal on the focal polyglass set used (only using the mids) and they gave me the sound I was after. BOTH of the seas neo tweets sound like a cheap tweeter to me. (yes I've used both) Didn't care for the seas L18 or CD18, didn't care for the vifa mg18, ditto with countless others and the best thing I ever did was swap an old pair of mids that were boner mids on here only to realize they sound muddy compared to my focals. My reviews on the mids I didn't like were glowing at the time because I didn't know any better. Not bashing anyone on here because we all like different things but when dealing with a leaky sealed enclosure like a door a driver that was designed for a tightly sealed or vented enclosure of a certain size and tuning has no place in a car door. This is all opinion. You can sift through spec sheets all you want and there are a few that will work fine in a leaky sealed box. I might give a pair of L6's a try for myself eventually to settle a dead horse I keep beating but will likely end up with another pair of polyglass mids when the time comes.

When someone says a certain driver is the end all/be all it might be because they're a noobie coming from a pair of coaxials off deck power or something else that's inferior. Others have chosen what they have chosen by testing too many drivers to count like Andy Jones. Car audio equipment is like fine wine. You have the conesuers and you have the people that wouldn't know one from the other. I have other thing I'm just as picky with like fishing rods. Falcon lowrider is the best series I've used. There are others that hate falcon even though the people that live them can't see how ANYONE could hate falcon. Elitism and brand loyalty is everywhere. You just gotta ignore it. If you have an elitist attitude and call someone out for it be prepared to be called a hipocrit. It's hard to be humble when everyone has their nose up your ass all the time and it's easy to become a hipocrit because of that.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

1slysti said:


> Let me remind you this all started because someone **** on my build log!!!!!


Cry me a ****ing river, do you have any idea haw many more times your ideas will be **** on in your life? 

Build the rig, and enjoy it man, no reason to get your panties all bunched up.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I've never understood the "I can't test" statements. It really isn't that hard.

From a financial point of view--buy two pairs of speakers. This is the initial cash outlay. test them both. Sell the one you don't like. You only tested it. You will get most of your money back. Buy a new set. Test it against the one you like from the first test. Sell the loser. over and over until you feel comfortable. Keep written notes if you are doing this over time. In the end you will have a pair of speakers you paid for and a bunch you sold. Done.

From a time point of view--if you have time to make eleventy billion post on a forum or to read eleventy billion post on a forum you have time to test. It really doesn't take that long. Me and a friend went through and tested about 6 or so tweeters several months ago. It took a few hours. Most of that time though was spent on two pairs of the tweeters. The other 4 got dumped in a hurry. One set we spent a lot of time on because we thought it should be doing better than it was. the other set we spent so much time on because it was so friggen sweet without EQ that we were stunned. 

Deadener testing--yea that took some time. Truck apart deadener on vertical surfaces--june temps for a few weeks seeing what it does. Sheet metal and an RTA, yada yada yada. Boring as $hit, but you go through it. 

Midbass--If you know where they are going the hardest part is installing them. If you are doing door mounted midbass---yea that will suck. Taking door panel on and off, replacing clips and seals to make sure door panel is as tight on the last speaker as it was on the first. 

In the end though--this is a hobby. We do this for fun. Why would you not want the fun part of finding what you like best and what works best in your car. I know someone who has rotated through every high end driver out there almost, and now has a set of $40 midranges in his vehicle. Those $40 mids sounded the best in what he is doing. 

Trusting other people you don't know just doesn't make sense. You never know anyone until you meet them, hang out with them personally, listen to their car, and they describe what they are hearing, and you can listen and see what you are hearing. You don't know someone because of what they post on a forum or even because they win shows. 




On winning shows---I've won local shows with a stock system. Winning a local show means very little. I know people who have won world championships who were not real sure how the CD goes in the player. So just because someone has won a world championship it doesn't mean they are worth listening to. It goes back to getting to know them. Two of the people I completely trust at this point have never won a world championship or even a major show yet. They will, but it hasn't happened yet.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Andy Jones, if I ever see you again I'm going to shake your hand and tell you how much I appreciate you telling me basically what you said in this thread nearly 3 years ago. It's helped a lot. I'll stay away from your car if you want me to but still would like to personally thank you.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Damn there is alot of ****ing whining and hand jobs going on in this thread. Who the **** cares if he posted a link to a MADISOUND OEM 8 in your build log. Is he in your car? Ignore him and continue with your build. 

And "who am I? ___, who am I? ____" 
Damn find another ass to crawl up.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Made this post elsewhere. Thought it fitting to throw in here, too.

I went into the HATs I had thinking I’d love them and never really did. They did their job, but it’s not my cup o’ tea. Still, the fact that Scott stands behind his product so well is probably a good enough reason to buy his product. I look at it like a warranty factor. Some are willing to pay more for warranty where others aren’t. I know that if you buy Seas drivers for your car and go asking for exact help you’re not going to get much from the mfg. When I had questions about my L3s Scott replied to me daily and in my build log. 
Say what you want about the drivers, but the owner stands behind his product. I probably won’t run HAT again because it’s not the kind of ‘sound’ _I_ want, but I won’t go publicly bashing them simply because of the respect I have for Scott.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Made this post elsewhere. Thought it fitting to throw in here, too.
> 
> I went into the HATs I had thinking I’d love them and never really did. They did their job, but it’s not my cup o’ tea. Still, the fact that Scott stands behind his product so well is probably a good enough reason to buy his product. I look at it like a warranty factor. Some are willing to pay more for warranty where others aren’t. I know that if you buy Seas drivers for your car and go asking for exact help you’re not going to get much from the mfg. When I had questions about my L3s Scott replied to me daily and in my build log.
> Say what you want about the drivers, but the owner stands behind his product. I probably won’t ever run HAT again because it’s not the kind of ‘sound’ I want, but I won’t go publicly bashing them simply because of the respect I have for Scott.


I agree Erin. I had thought about some L3's a while back and asked scott some questions and he always replied very quickly..seems to be a stand up guy..its the boo hooing around here that's gettin old.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I also agree, I've NEVER owned their products, probably never will, but I've been in contact with Scott and a couple reps and they are truly stand-up people that embrace a passion, and that's something you don't get as much anymore. I've seen several instances here where HAT went above and beyond to solve a problem, even if it was not their issues but merely helping a customer out.


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## SQfreak (Feb 13, 2007)

You know, I don't post much. I've always have been more of a lurker and a reader but I have been around a long time. 

Anyway, like most of us, I found this site because I was looking for more. Now you can define that "more" however you will but for me, it was to gain the ability to make my music sound "right" in my car. The real power of this forum is not that people can recommend drivers (that happens on all forums) or to be a swap meet for gear (again that's everywhere) No, the real power of DIYMA is the availability of information that forms an education of sorts, teaching one to know *why* they like what they like; to understand what properties of any driver makes them smile. Just like MiniVanMan said, DIYMA is here help people find their happy medium. Specs will only get you so far and listening without an education will lead you down the never ending search through thousands of drivers to no conclusions. If you are here, then it is time to take ownership of your hobby.

So do you like like HAT? Yes, No? Ok...*WHY*? Now it's time to find your balance between science and art. Welcome to DIYMA


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I've never understood the "I can't test" statements. It really isn't that hard.
> 
> From a financial point of view--buy two pairs of speakers. This is the initial cash outlay. test them both. Sell the one you don't like. You only tested it. You will get most of your money back. Buy a new set. Test it against the one you like from the first test. Sell the loser. over and over until you feel comfortable. Keep written notes if you are doing this over time. In the end you will have a pair of speakers you paid for and a bunch you sold. Done.
> 
> ...


These are all excellent points. I'm going to ask this question though. Who, and what is the future of car audio? 

I slog through a ton of posts, and determine if the person is just looking to be spoon fed, or if the person looks like they are willing to do some leg work. The majority of the people that come around here just want a quick answer as to what components or sub they should buy. Mixed in with those are a very select few that actually want to learn the ins and outs of audio. They may be new to the hobby as well. I think showing them that there's an explanation, scientifically, to what's happening in his car, minus the variances between vehicles, goes a long way toward entrenching this person into the future of car audio. And, showing that car audio is not the voodoo that he's been told over and over on other forums. 

Yeah, numbers and graphs aren't the end all be all. They should only be used as a guide as to whether something will fit your application or not. Learning preference only comes with experience and personal testing. Hillbilly was actually rather articulate in his statement to that fact. 

If the numbers didn't mean anything, then science would not have been able to improve on the loudspeaker since it's invention. The engineers/scientists that have been designing these speakers over the years have been using hard science to do so. There has been an unimaginable amount of time invested in testing for what works and what doesn't. In the end, there's been an explanation for just about everything when the time has been taken to understand it. Granted that also means that just the T/S parameters and graphs are pretty limited in telling you how a speaker will sound. It doesn't make them useless, and doesn't mean that you abandon them to just trial and error. That is unless you're investing the time into testing for personal or public knowledge.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I've never understood the "I can't test" statements. It really isn't that hard.
> 
> From a financial point of view--buy two pairs of speakers. This is the initial cash outlay. test them both. Sell the one you don't like. You only tested it. You will get most of your money back.



W-R-O-N-G. It's hard to sell something, even if only tested, for half of what it cost new. Even more so with the economy in the ****ter. Most people don't have disposable income to do "tests."


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

SQfreak said:


> You know, I don't post much. I've always have been more of a lurker and a reader but I have been around a long time.
> 
> Anyway, like most of us, I found this site because I was looking for more. Now you can define that "more" however you will but for me, it was to gain the ability to make my music sound "right" in my car. The real power of this forum is not that people can recommend drivers (that happens on all forums) or to be a swap meet for gear (again that's everywhere) No, the real power of DIYMA is the availability of information that forms an education of sorts, teaching one to know *why* they like what they like; to understand what properties of any driver makes them smile. Just like MiniVanMan said, DIYMA is here help people find their happy medium. Specs will only get you so far and listening without an education will lead you down the never ending search through thousands of drivers to no conclusions. If you are here, then it is time to take ownership of your hobby.
> 
> So do you like like HAT? Yes, No? Ok...*WHY*? Now it's time to find your balance between science and art. Welcome to DIYMA


Tell that to DS-21. In his world specs are everything and nothing will change his mind. 

Having said that, I'd love to hear his car to see how a car built entirely on science and spces sounds vs. one built with the ear.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Tell that to DS-21. In his world specs are everything and nothing will change his mind.
> 
> Having said that, I'd love to hear his car to see how a car built entirely on science and spces sounds vs. one built with the ear.


There's a big difference between buying based on specs and tuning based on specs. There's no reason to think his car would sound any different than yours. Some people want a colored driver that requires very little tuning to sound good. Others want a flat driver that they can use their ears to tune to their liking. I can see justifications for both. From an accurate reproduction standpoint, buying based on specs makes more sense.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Good point, but I'll counter with this; If he buys based on flat response why woudl he tune for anything else? If the car is tuned flat then all he'll hear is what the artist/engineers wanted, correct?

I'm kinda curious what his opinion is on this actually.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I guess we'll find out. Maybe it's a control thing. If you get a flat driver, you are the one who decides how it will sound, not the manufacturer. I can't stand flat response in my car. I use BBE processing and lots of EQ. I don't care if that's what the artist intended. It's what I like. If I buy a painting, I can turn it on its side if that's what I like. It becomes MY art too.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Mooble said:


> I guess we'll find out. Maybe it's a control thing. If you get a flat driver, you are the one who decides how it will sound, not the manufacturer. I can't stand flat response in my car. I use BBE processing and lots of EQ. I don't care if that's what the artist intended. It's what I like. If I buy a painting, I can turn it on its side if that's what I like. It becomes MY art too.


I like a flat responst to the ears where a 30hz tone is the same volume as a 15khz tone. It definately widens what I can listen to without wanting to change settings. For what it's worth I havn't changed my settings since 12-6-08 and probably won't change anything until I replace something that will change how the system sounds as a whole.

COLORATION IS THE DEVIL. My install adds enough with my stock metal mesh grills causing diffraction so why would I want a paper cone adding to the problem?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> W-R-O-N-G. It's hard to sell something, even if only tested, for half of what it cost new. Even more so with the economy in the ****ter. Most people don't have disposable income to do "tests."


I've never had a problem selling the things I sold for what I had in them. Your experience may be different but I've always been fine. 



About the future of car audio---hopefully it's people who love music.

About building speakers--people building speakers may be using science but in the end they are building them to what THEY want to hear ("they" being whoever is testing them). They don't just throw a formula out and create a speaker. I've actually been lucky enough to test several prototypes and provide feedback. The science got them to step one. It was personal opinion that got them to step 2 and so on. Because of that testing with your ears will always be required to determine if you like a speaker. You will never be able to look at numbers and know 100% whether or not it will work in your vehicle.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

chad said:


> Cry me a ****ing river, do you have any idea haw many more times your ideas will be **** on in your life?
> 
> Build the rig, and enjoy it man, no reason to get your panties all bunched up.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> About building speakers--people building speakers may be using science but in the end they are building them to what THEY want to hear ("they" being whoever is testing them). They don't just throw a formula out and create a speaker. I've actually been lucky enough to test several prototypes and provide feedback. The science got them to step one. It was personal opinion that got them to step 2 and so on. Because of that testing with your ears will always be required to determine if you like a speaker. You will never be able to look at numbers and know 100% whether or not it will work in your vehicle.


:beerchug:

"Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary." Albert Einstein


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> You sound like the kind of person who thinks a piggish, overpowered GT such as a 370Z is a "sports car." I have a more purist definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Spoken like the true condescending weenie that you are. 

The problem with your description of the "feel" of a sports car, is the genearal lack of tangibility. Who's to say that a miata has any more of this "feel" to you, than my wrx has to me? I've been driving this car for nearly 5 years. I feel pretty in tune with this car when I'm driving it, almost like it's an extention of me. Not everyone that drives this car one time may get that same experience, but drive any car long enough, and it exhibits the attribute you describe as being "sports car" qualities. 

Sorry guy, but the miata may be an excellent handling car, and sporty, but in my mind, it's still a chick mobile. You may disagree, but this is the nature of opinions. They are just that, opinions, not facts. 

None of these cars are as you put it "designed to be extentions of the driver", this is simply romancing the brand/car. They are designed to perform, and sell based on performance. 

Keep spewing your inane opinions. I'm sure one of these days you'll find yourself changing someones opinion to match yours...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Tell that to DS-21. In his world specs are everything and nothing will change his mind.
> 
> Having said that, I'd love to hear his car to see how a car built entirely on science and spces sounds vs. one built with the ear.


Couldn't have said it better myself. 


Funny that he even talks about sports car's "feel". He should be able to read a spec sheet on the car, and know everything he wanted to know. 

Based on his attitude regarding audio, he should be the type of guy who reads a car&driver spec sheets, and buys the car without ever driving it. Based on his statements though, this doesn't seem to be the case. 

I'm sure he'll have an explanation about how the same methodology doesn't transfer from buying a speaker vs. buying an automobile. 


My simpler explanation is that he's an over-oppinionated douchebag. 

I like my explanation much better.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> The science doesn't have to lead you to a perfectly flat response. FR is only part of the equation, and one that's easily manipulated via EQ. Something like distortion is not so easily fixed with processing. Instead it makes sense to grab a driver that performs well in that regard up front and make adjustments elsewhere to achieve the desired response.
> 
> I think many people would agree that a smooth house curve, falling off to some degree with rising frequency, is rather pleasing to listen to, and again can be manipulated to one's particular tastes quite easily. Flat, sounds, sort of flat. I like to use "smooth" instead.
> 
> ...



Right, but if that's the sound he was after why wouldn't he start with drivers that put him closer to that rather than whining about whether a particular driver has a particular piece or not? If he was after "full, enriched, and tubelike" it would be a lot easier than starting with flat drivers, no? 

I won't go so far as to say they're mutually exclusive, but it's a bit like ice skating up hill.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Tell that to DS-21. In his world specs are everything and nothing will change his mind.


I'm not sure how you could possibly reach that kind of conclusion. 

Admittedly, I do take a different approach than some.
I'm just not a "throw it in and try it" kind of guy. I don't have the time, or the patience, for that kind of thing. I prefer to start from first principles. I take the sonic qualities I know from experience I like (coherence through the mids and treble, lower midrange punch, midbass headroom, etc.) and then proceed to design a system that has the highest probability of satisfying them.

In that process "specs" serve an excellent editing function. I need an 8" midbass. Am I going to look at the hyped up one with a primitive motor and nothing else special about it for $200, the one with a well-designed conventional motor and good-not-great suspension for $50, or the one with a SOTA motor and excellent build quality for $80? I would certainly consider the latter two, depending on other factors (HF extension required, output required, ease of install, cash I'm willing to put into the system, etc.) The first one is an obvious non-starter.



quality_sound said:


> Having said that, I'd love to hear his car to see how a car built entirely on science and spces sounds vs. one built with the ear.


I'm a realist. I know that there's just no way a small, open 2-seat roadster is going to provide the fidelity that a well-designed home system can, so I don't even try. But is there a better-sounding Miata out there? Perhaps, but I may be so arrogant as to say that there probably isn't a better-sounding one that also looks like there's no audio equipment in there and has not a square micron of cargo space consumed by audio gear.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> :beerchug:
> 
> "Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary." Albert Einstein




"Beer--the cause and solutions to all of life's problems" Homer Simpson.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> I'm not sure how you could possibly reach that kind of conclusion.


Because I've had YET to hear you EVER mention how a speaker sounds. Not even once. It's ALWAYS about its measurments and specs. Every...single...time. 

I'm NOT saying this is bad, I was just pointing out that arguing withyou about it is pointless as you're not likely to change your habits any time soon.



> Admittedly, I do take a different approach than some.
> I'm just not a "throw it in and try it" kind of guy. I don't have the time, or the patience, for that kind of thing. I prefer to start from first principles. I take the sonic qualities I know from experience I like (coherence through the mids and treble, lower midrange punch, midbass headroom, etc.) and then proceed to design a system that has the highest probability of satisfying them.
> 
> In that process "specs" serve an excellent editing function. I need an 8" midbass. Am I going to look at the hyped up one with a primitive motor and nothing else special about it for $200, the one with a well-designed conventional motor and good-not-great suspension for $50, or the one with a SOTA motor and excellent build quality for $80? I would certainly consider the latter two, depending on other factors (HF extension required, output required, ease of install, cash I'm willing to put into the system, etc.) The first one is an obvious non-starter.


And that's where you're missing out IMO. That's part of the fun of the hobby. Not to mention, being priomitive doesn't mean it doesn't work just as well as a newer design. How old is the wheel? 



> I'm a realist. I know that there's just no way a small, open 2-seat roadster is going to provide the fidelity that a well-designed home system can, so I don't even try. But is there a better-sounding Miata out there? Perhaps, but I may be so arrogant as to say that there probably isn't a better-sounding one that also looks like there's no audio equipment in there and has not a square micron of cargo space consumed by audio gear.


Maybe, maybe not. But since all we know if your car is that the stereo doesn't take up any space I guess we'll never know. 

Out of curiosity, do you listen to music for enjoyment or do you use the music to critically evaluate the system?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Perhaps, but I may be so arrogant as to say that there probably isn't a better-sounding Ford F150 than mine that also has no audio equipment in there and has not a square micron of cargo space consumed by audio gear. :huh2:


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Yep, I TOTALLY missed your point. lol


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> About building speakers--people building speakers may be using science but in the end they are building them to what THEY want to hear ("they" being whoever is testing them). They don't just throw a formula out and create a speaker. I've actually been lucky enough to test several prototypes and provide feedback. The science got them to step one. It was personal opinion that got them to step 2 and so on. Because of that testing with your ears will always be required to determine if you like a speaker. You will never be able to look at numbers and know 100% whether or not it will work in your vehicle.


Science gives you the ability to troubleshoot anomalies in your desired frequency response. So, in speaker design you always go back to science, though, I do call good loudspeaker design an "artform". It really is. Sometimes it takes quite a bit of creativity to work around something. 

There's never a 100% in audio. There's always compromise. There are always anomalies. Even after you've found the best compromise, you still need to be okay with what you compromised on. That once again comes back to testing. A graph goes a long way toward telling you what the system is doing. 

Now, I think people are getting confused out there when I say graph. I think they're assuming I mean frequency response graph. No, I'm not. They are minimally useful. I'm talking phase plots, harmonic distortion plots, etc. The kind of stuff that really tells you when something isn't matching up. A trained ear can pick that stuff up pretty easily. I'm not as trained as many, and still rely on what the microphone tells me. It helps me locate issues with a little more precision than my ear allows me to. 

Here's a great example.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...covery-recap-install-thread-5.html#post676807

I asked that the builder take a separate plot of both the driver's side and passenger side drivers. I actually did it to prove a point at a later date when I have more time. The graphs are very different. You know why they're different, I know why they're different. You also know what can be expected when you listen to this set. Even though the summed frequency response is flat, you're going to have issues. 

So, there is a place for the science. I know you use test equipment when you install and tune. I want to make sure that people understand that you don't just rely on your ear. Though I'm sure you do quite a bit, and ultimately it's what decides on whether something is successful or not. 

Using the above graphs, I can illustrate a common problem in car audio with door mounted drivers.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

I hear also that some speakers sound differently when they are pointed at you verses pointed towards the side.... wouldn't it be great if why had a way to find out which is which...... then we could guess whether they might be better suited for mounting in the door or the kick panels.

I really wish someone would find a way to give us an idea about that


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## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

Some of you guys must be single and or have no kids.... I can hear the converstation now...

Hey babe I am going to order $1,000 worth of woofers to test and then Im going to spend $300 on an RTA to test them with. I will be in the garage for a few hours each day until I determine one isnt "good" enough for me and then Im going to sell that pair..Then Im going to buy another set of $300 - 500 drivers and do it again. Why....Because its my hobby babe. Why cant you just support me?


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

fredridge said:


> I hear also that some speakers sound differently when they are pointed at you verses pointed towards the side.... wouldn't it be great if why had a way to find out which is which...... then we could guess whether they might be better suited for mounting in the door or the kick panels.
> 
> I really wish someone would find a way to give us an idea about that


Off-axis response plots. Take a look at the link I just posted in my previous post. It's exactly what you're talking about.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> Perhaps, but I may be so arrogant as to say that there probably isn't a better-sounding Ford F150 than mine that also has no audio equipment in there and has not a square micron of cargo space consumed by audio gear. :huh2:


You may, thank goodness we don't have to listen though. :inquisitive: Fortunately whats best in Audio is really in the ears of the beholder as you said yourself....


hence, who cares what someone says about your L8's if you like them, thats all that matters.

Apprantly my tasers are set to irritating today...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> You may, thank goodness we don't have to listen though. :inquisitive: Fortunately whats best in Audio is really in the ears of the beholder as you said yourself....
> 
> 
> hence, who cares what someone says about your L8's if you like them, thats all that matters.
> ...


Did you miss that he was saying his F150 has no stereo?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Most of the pictures are gone (at least for me) on that thread. What I see in that RTA graph and from looking at the pictures without reading anything looks like an install problem. Mounting speakers to the door panel, having midrange drivers that high and then having one pointed right at a mic while the other is badly off-axis to a mic. 

What I found from having dash mounted midrange drivers (and that is as close to a dash mounted midragne as you will get without actually mounting to the dash) is that there are a ton of reflections. RTA mics don't know the difference between a reflection and a primary wave. So what you see on an RTA mic and what you are actually hearing with an install like that are rarely connected. Some things you can go with, but most you are not going to use.

I know my RTA curve when I had dash mounted Hybrid L3's looked like a train wreck. It didn't sound like that, but it damn sure looked like it.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Did you miss that he was saying his F150 has no stereo?


Nope, hence the funny looking face..


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> Nope, hence the funny looking face..


Ahhh... I must have missed the sarcasm. lol


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

tbonez3858 said:


> Some of you guys must be single and or have no kids.... I can hear the converstation now...
> 
> Hey babe I am going to order $1,000 worth of woofers to test and then Im going to spend $300 on an RTA to test them with. I will be in the garage for a few hours each day until I determine one isnt "good" enough for me and then Im going to sell that pair..Then Im going to buy another set of $300 - 500 drivers and do it again. Why....Because its my hobby babe. Why cant you just support me?


Do you have my house wired?hehehe


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

My L8's are in my garage system that I listen to when working on cars. I think they are great drivers, but I'm not using them in anything "critical" right now. Just a basic system:

Clarion DRX9255
Clarin CDC635 Changer
Stetsom 4 channel amp (150 x 4)
Rockford Fosgate Punch 60
Audio Control EQL
Memphis 3 way crossover
Shocker Audio 15
Hybrid L8's
Image Dynamic CD1 Pro Horns



So you can see they are not being utilized in any high end way right now. While I think they are great drivers, none of my comments really have had anything to do with Hybrid.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> You may, thank goodness we don't have to listen though. :inquisitive: Fortunately whats best in Audio is really in the ears of the beholder as you said yourself....
> 
> 
> hence, who cares what someone says about your L8's if you like them, thats all that matters.
> ...



He was sarcastically paraphrasing DS-21...


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Most of the pictures are gone (at least for me) on that thread. What I see in that RTA graph and from looking at the pictures without reading anything looks like an install problem. Mounting speakers to the door panel, having midrange drivers that high and then having one pointed right at a mic while the other is badly off-axis to a mic.
> 
> What I found from having dash mounted midrange drivers (and that is as close to a dash mounted midragne as you will get without actually mounting to the dash) is that there are a ton of reflections. RTA mics don't know the difference between a reflection and a primary wave. So what you see on an RTA mic and what you are actually hearing with an install like that are rarely connected. Some things you can go with, but most you are not going to use.
> 
> I know my RTA curve when I had dash mounted Hybrid L3's looked like a train wreck. It didn't sound like that, but it damn sure looked like it.


Those plots were just the midbass performances full range. 

I'm a huge proponent of dash mounted midranges now. They have their own challenges, but ultimately it's been a great compromise for me. 

I'm not a big RTA fan. I use it for GENERAL purpose, but nothing overly critical in my tuning. An RTA can be useful for find a phase offset if it's big enough. But like you said, reflections don't get picked up. Also, as shown in that link is how even though you have a flat summed response, it doesn't mean both drivers are pulling their weight in getting that response. 

It really comes down to experience. I'm going to forever fight the person that says graphs, and numbers are useless. Yeah, I can slog through a swamp and get to the other side, but I'd really still rather use a boat, even it's a bit leaky and slow. The numbers and graphs can tell you a lot. Not understanding them doesn't make them useless, it just makes somebody ignorant. It makes them more ignorant when they refuse to understand, and don't bother with learning what the numbers have to say. That's called laziness, and they're using voodoo magic as an excuse to be lazy. 

Although, I wouldn't necessarily say trying 10 sets of drivers in your doors, is lazy, but if you're doing it to avoid using your brain, then it's still lazy. 

So, in essence, if the HAT drivers are something you like, then great. By all means, if they hold value for you then get them. I just have a hard time swallowing the price. I'd rather try 5 sets of cheaper drivers for the same price as one set of HAT drivers. There's a part of me that says I could get the same performance out of one of those 5. Then again I might not find something as suitable in my install as the HAT driver. Six of one, half a dozen of another. 

Ultimately, it's the incessant preening of HAT owners trying to pull others into their flock without being able to present any real information other than "I really like the way they sound" that drives me crazy.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

If the HAT driver's MSRP is high for you, you would die of a heart attack at some of the other drivers I've used and am using.

Seriously in the grand scheme of things the HAT drivers are not expensive at all. If you do an install that is worth a damn at all, you will far exceed the cost of the speakers in the install. 

I got the L8's in a trade on some stuff, so I'm not real sure what the MSRP is, but I think they are in teh $500 range. Is that right? That isn't bad at all. It isn't a Dayton driver price, but it isn't out of line either. The L8 really does sound very nice. I mean the Scan 7's have a MSRP of right at that price. The Morel Elate 9's are around that price. Skaaning drivers are right there. Focal Utopia is in that range. The Autophile midbass drivers are in that range. 

So really there are a group of really good drivers there that all cost roughly the same amount. For some reason though Hybrids get pointed out more because of the price. I think it is because they are a small company and the owner is so available. People start to see him as a "friend" or another poster on line, and then get shocked he won't give them a hookup and sell the drivers for $50. If it was a company owned by someone people didn't know, I doubt price would be brought up so much.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> Ultimately, it's the incessant preening of HAT owners trying to pull others into their flock without being able to present any real information other than "I really like the way they sound" that drives me crazy.


And it's the relentless masquerade of "cheap-asses" that think a $4 will 'sound just as good as' a $400 driver b/c they test great trying to pull others into their flock without being able to present any real information other than "I really like the way they test" that drives me crazy. 

So, in the end, i think we'll all agree....Ricky Martin should have never left Menudo.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

People who just like the way they sound 

News

examples:

1] David Edwards
2] John Sketoe
3] John Marsh
4] Dave Brooks
5] Jason Pellino
6] Hajji Grape
7] Andy Jones
8] Jonathan (Marty) Martin


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

How do you want HAT supporters to prove they sound good over an internet forum? 

Seriously what could a proponent of any speaker do over an internet forum to prove something sounds good?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> If the HAT driver's MSRP is high for you, you would die of a heart attack at some of the other drivers I've used and am using.


And this proves what? You are willing to pay insane money for a driver to placed in an absolutely horrible acoustic space? Smart, that's smart.



Andy Jones said:


> Seriously in the grand scheme of things the HAT drivers are not expensive at all. If you do an install that is worth a damn at all, you will far exceed the cost of the speakers in the install.
> 
> I got the L8's in a trade on some stuff, so I'm not real sure what the MSRP is, but I think they are in teh $500 range. Is that right? That isn't bad at all. It isn't a Dayton driver price, but it isn't out of line either. The L8 really does sound very nice.


Dude, WTF are you smoking? REAL drivers don't even cost that much money, even the big ones, well some do reach the 700 dollar range but do some pretty super ****.



Andy Jones said:


> I mean the Scan 7's have a MSRP of right at that price. The Morel Elate 9's are around that price. Skaaning drivers are right there. Focal Utopia is in that range. The Autophile midbass drivers are in that range.
> 
> So really there are a group of really good drivers there that all cost roughly the same amount. For some reason though Hybrids get pointed out more because of the price. I think it is because they are a small company and the owner is so available.


No it's because they cater to the small group of insane that will drop that kind of cash to toss speakers in an odd shaped tin can that goes down the road at 60MPH+. When you look at it in that way.... it's nucking futs.


I would not blink an eye when someone tells me I dropped 500 bucks for a mid ina studio, or home, or stage, but in a car? Come on man, how much of that performance difference is actually conveyed on the morning commute getting ruined in possibly some of the most horrid environmental conditions this side of marine use?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^^ 8 names, 10 world championships. Not all using Hybrid equipment, but still that's a nice list to be on. Though it has nothing to do with how a driver sounds, still a nice list to be on


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Chad--you seem to have some bitterness towards people who spend money on stuff they enjoy. Not sure why, but damn get the **** over it. 

Not all of us live paycheck to paycheck. Not all of us have stupid amounts of debt. So we can do things we enjoy. 

I have used cheap drivers, I have used mid line drivers, I have used expensive drivers. I use the drivers that sound the best to me. I don't worry about the price. I get drivers, I test them out, I use what I like. Done deal. 

My car is not a tin can. That is part of the proper install. I can definitely hear a difference in drivers. I know, I tested them. Most of them are still sitting in my house. I probably have more drivers at my house than most people here have owned. I sell them every now and then, but generally I just put them to the side. Hell I've bought 3 or 4 pair of drivers in the last week just because I want to play with them at a later date. No use at all for them right now. I own a few SPL subs because I like to play with them. It's a hobby. All hobbies are expensive. I'm good with that.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

You gentlemen can keep looking for speakers that sound "good", and I'll keep trying to listen to the recording.

Fair enough?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Neil said:


> You gentlemen can keep looking for speakers that sound "good", and I'll keep trying to listen to the recording.
> 
> Fair enough?


Amen. I've never understood the chase for high dollar drivers, amps, and imaging when any of this can be heard on an AM clock radio.

Maybe it's just me.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> If the HAT driver's MSRP is high for you, you would die of a heart attack at some of the other drivers I've used and am using.
> 
> Seriously in the grand scheme of things the HAT drivers are not expensive at all. If you do an install that is worth a damn at all, you will far exceed the cost of the speakers in the install.
> 
> ...


In the grand scheme of CAR AUDIO they're not expensive. In the grand scheme of audio in general they're very expensive. So, what you're saying is that the L8 will perform as well as the 8" Revelator. That the L8 exhibits the same cost to performance ratio in a car that the Revelator exhibits in a loudspeaker? 

You don't care about cost. I'm finding that comparably priced drivers in car audio often don't come close to their home audio or pro audio counterparts. Car audio has the most insane markup. Granted, it's a much smaller population that buys car audio equipment, so the overhead needs to be paid for somehow. 

You're going to have to give me a lot more than "they just sound nice" to convince me their value is consistent with a Scan 18W Revelator. If they do something in a car that other drivers don't then what is it. What has Scott done to combat the acoustical environment that others haven't? 

I do scoff at high priced drivers in a car. Most of the people that buy high priced drivers for their cars are looking for some magical solution to the car's inherent problems instead of actually fixing those issues in the install. 

So, yeah, I'll spend a lot more on install.


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

me too. Timewise, especially.

Anyway, can we have a whine from the OP about crapping on his thread again now instead of all this reasonable argumentation about why numbers reveal lots but still hide some aspects?

Bret


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'll stick with focal for mids. Like HAT they aren't for everyone but they sound nice TO ME and that's all that matters

We now return to your regularly scheduled debate


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

This approach worked for NPDang ....

quote>
With music it can sometimes be difficult for me to separate frequency response from the clarity of the driver. Which is why I use tones to distinguish the "purity" of one driver from another. At low volumes most all drivers sound the same playing a tone. As you increase the volume they begin to sound different... a good driver still has that clean, pure sound while a bad driver begins to sound a little shrill, thick, or changes in pitch altoghether. 
end quote>

Umm...basically, crank them bishes and listen to how they sound when the heats on !!!


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

What do you want?

Let's flip this around---prove to me ANY DRIVER sounds a certain way--on a forum. 

You want people to prove what they are hearing over an internet forum. That isn't going to happen. If you want graphs---tell me what you want them to say, and I bet I can contact three or four people and I can get that graph on any speaker you pick. ANY SPEAKER. I can get some literature that shows a Funky Pup will play 12hz perfectly flat to 20khz if you truly want me to. 


it seems that if a driver is cheap, people can say this driver is as good as a Revelator "for the price". But if a driver is expensive, you guys want God to show up and announce that it is a good driver before you are willing to believe. If God isn't willing to show up, then the driver is just over priced. 

I don't get that at all.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

For the record, I have owned/tested/heard the Scan-speak 7, the Alpine version of that driver, the Genesis Absolute 7 and the Hybrid 8. So I'm not just throwing crap out there when I talk about drivers.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Andy, why do you keep talking as if the FR plot is the only measurement available for a driver?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I still don't understand why anyone would want to argue about the sonic qualities of most cars. Sure it's far from ideal, but isn't overcoming those obstacles, and getting incredible sound in the car most of the reason we are here? 

If you want to argue that cars sound bad, then give up on this hobby and keep your stock crap in your car. 

I mean really, the last time you went to a live concert, especially a rock concert, or a god forbid a pop/hip hop concert? How dead silent and acoustically perfect were those venue's? 

I really don't understand arguing that car's sound bad on a forum specifically aimed at making cars sound good... it's the type of arguing I hear from people completely against the hobby...


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I haven't mentioned a frequency response curve or any measurement. My comments are to measurements in general.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Every manufacturer who claims superiority (either through price, marketing, or both) should be required to provide evidence supporting that claim. The higher the price is relative to its contemporaries, the more skeptical of those claims we should be. Often it is impossible for a manufacturer to obtain such evidence because they lack the resources to complete the testing necessary or, more commonly, lack the understanding of the principles of the testing (this last note may ring some truth for those reading the thread).

I'm very tired of this argument that testing can be skewed to say anything you want. Sure, that's the case, but we haven't given up on science, have we? All it takes is a simple repeat of the original test and we can prove the original to be falsified, or at least questionable. If you're worried that your data looks bad to a competitor because they have falsified their information, have the confidence to post yours and explain how others can test in ways that manipulate the results. The reality is probably that most companies *can't* do this because they feel they are risking their brand, which I suppose tells you about how much they believe in it.

Oh, and let's keep in mind I'm talking about playback systems, and not instruments. Then again, use of the GedLee metric (and similar concepts) means we can soon have conversations about instruments, too.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> Andy, why do you keep talking as if the FR plot is the only measurement available for a driver?


Almost everyone who is against scientific audio usually talks that way. I wonder why.

Or they assume we're talking about Thiele/Small parameters.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> What do you want?
> 
> Let's flip this around---prove to me ANY DRIVER sounds a certain way--on a forum.
> 
> You want people to prove what they are hearing over an internet forum. That isn't going to happen. If you want graphs---tell me what you want them to say, and I bet I can contact three or four people and I can get that graph on any speaker you pick. ANY SPEAKER. I can get some literature that shows a Funky Pup *will play 12hz perfectly flat to 20khz* if you truly want me to.





Andy Jones said:


> I haven't mentioned a frequency response curve or any measurement. My comments are to measurements in general.


That makes it sound like the only thing we would care to see is on-axis FR. Sure, you could find a single graph that said that, but the cumulative measures would show something quite fishy.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I'm not against science. I'm not against measurements. I am against eliminating drivers based on that. Look at measurements. I absolutely do. I look at every piece of information I can get my hands on. Then I put them in my truck. If they do well in my truck and I think they are good, I then move them on to my car. If my car is improved by them being in there the old drivers go to the bedroom and those drivers stay.

Science and measurements are great. They are not the most important aspect though. What I hear is the most important aspect. 

I use the numbers to try and determine how the driver would best be utilized. Then I test every possible way anyway. I'm like that.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Ok one spot I mentioned frequency response. How about this, you tell me what you want a distortion graph to show--I'll get you that. You tell me what you want *insert your favorite measurement* and I'll get you that.


I truly think some of you enjoy sitting behind a computer more than you enjoy car audio.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> What do you want?
> 
> Let's flip this around---prove to me ANY DRIVER sounds a certain way--on a forum.
> 
> ...


I think it's very fair to ask for justification when price is on the top end. Would you like for me to just go on faith as to what a manufacturer says? I think it's fair to show me some objective data to prove your worth. Yeah, they can fudge the data, but eventually that will get out, and their names will be smeared. 

BTW, I've never said a driver was "as good as a Revelator". I will recommend drivers based on budget that perform to some degree like a Revelator, while listing the compromises. There are always compromises. However, if you want to compare a driver to a Revelator, it'd better damn well perform just as well as a Revelator if it's the same price. That being said, there's nothing that says that a Revelator will work in your application. I'm just stating a point. If there are compromises though, then the cost doesn't justify the performance.

So, yeah, if somebody is asking me to shell out $250.00, either they or God can can prove the value to me. I'll take either one, though I'm more likely to take God's word on it. Then again, I might just be cynical enough to make him show me something beyond his word as well. 

So, while I've been agreeing with 90% of what you've been saying, you seem to have missed my point. Now you're telling me that I need to take people's word for it that a driver is worth it's cost, when you say we should do our own testing. Which is it? I know you've done the leg work. That's not in question. What about the AVERAGE car audio consumer? How do they approach the hobby without getting screwed over in the beginning. 

So, a driver that's expensive is automatically worth the money and I don't need to question that? That's what your comment above is saying to me.

It goes back to testing on your own, and who to trust. Franky I don't trust people that are trying to sell me something or have a vested interest in the people that make money off of me. 

So, what's the happy medium? How does the average car audio consumer approach finding the best product for his needs? How do they know what's worth the money and what isn't?

Or, we could just do away with the internet and forums and only let the elite play at this game.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

I don't enjoy car audio. I enjoy music and the car is a place where I want to hear it.

If I want to judge a driver, I think as a bare minimum, you should have axial and polar response, harmonic and intermodulation distortion vs frequency (broken down by component...you could also have a vs frequency vs amplitude graph), decay information, and Thiele/Small parameters. KDA is, for the most part, an engineering tool used to indicate where problems in the above might be coming from and lacks the ability to capture certain information that is fairly well-represented elsewhere, but having Le(x), Kms(x), and BL(x) as well as Le(i) and BL(i) would be beneficial.

This is not a small amount of information to process, and it takes a long time to understand not only what you're reading, but also the physical principles behind it. However, the answer is not to ignore it: the answer is to embrace it and seek a greater understanding until we have reached a point where speakers are so good that we don't even have to question whether we are hearing the recording or not.

I was at a local art gallery a few months ago looking at some Warhol paintings. I chose to leave my sunglasses off when viewing them.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

You two are reading what you want to into my responses.

I wouldn't trust a single person who post reguarly on this forum. Not one. The people I trust don't post here. Some use to---they got tired and left. Others have never been here. I would advise people not to trust a single person who post on this forum on a regular basis if they are just starting out.

What I have been saying all along is look at the data, but then test for yourself. Trust yourself. Get to know some people and if they can prove to you in person they know what they are doing--then trust them. Don't ever trust names on an internet forum. Especially fake names. 

Look at data all you want. I do that. I look at the data. Then test the speaker. I've seen drivers taht tested well that I don't like and drivers that didn't measure well that I liked. 

That is all I've been saying. trust no one until you know them personally. Look at data, but test for yourself. 


I'm out, I have a car to work on. More testing and tuning to do.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Chad--you seem to have some bitterness towards people who spend money on stuff they enjoy. Not sure why, but damn get the **** over it.


No, I have bitterness for people who spend more money than they really need to to achieve a goal then preach about it in monetary terms. I too spend money on things I enjoy, probably too much, but hey, I guess the difference is value based and that "value" is most certainly a lifestyle and moralistic based equation.



Andy Jones said:


> Not all of us live paycheck to paycheck. Not all of us have stupid amounts of debt. So we can do things we enjoy.


I'm unsure if that was some sort of a cheap-shot at me or if you somehow looked up an erroneous financial portfolio on me.

I don't live paycheck to paycheck, I owe money on my home, and the amount is far less than most, I can do things I enjoy, especially after that early retirement I have planned. You will find it very rare for me to speak about my financial terms on a personal level, I'm finding quite the opposite about you as of recent.



Andy Jones said:


> I have used cheap drivers, I have used mid line drivers, I have used expensive drivers. I use the drivers that sound the best to me. I don't worry about the price. I get drivers, I test them out, I use what I like. Done deal.


I think that's a great statement, it would be even better statement if you did not mention the price of said drivers in the post I first responded to  I guess then it would not make a difference eh? I to do the same thing, but I DO have a budget or a cap I'm willing to spend on a driver that eventually will go to hell.



Andy Jones said:


> My car is not a tin can. That is part of the proper install. I can definitely hear a difference in drivers. I know, I tested them. Most of them are still sitting in my house. I probably have more drivers at my house than most people here have owned. I sell them every now and then, but generally I just put them to the side. Hell I've bought 3 or 4 pair of drivers in the last week just because I want to play with them at a later date. No use at all for them right now. I own a few SPL subs because I like to play with them..


A car IS a tin can and always WILL be a tin can till you remove the sheet metal, there's a reason they don't build recording studios and proper listening rooms out of Morton buildings, even radio stations for that matter, even though a Morton building would give superior RF isolation. Now, take said LEAKY Morton building and smack it with a 60MPH headwind on a calm day.

We don't wanna get into a chest puffing contest of who's bought and/or handled and/or used the most amount of drivers.



Andy Jones said:


> It's a hobby. All hobbies are expensive. I'm good with that.


I think it's safer to end that comment wiht "All hobies eventually cost money, again, expense is value based.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Look at data all you want. I do that. I look at the data. Then test the speaker. I've seen drivers taht tested well that I don't like and drivers that didn't measure well that I liked.
> 
> That is all I've been saying. trust no one until you know them personally. Look at data, but test for yourself.
> 
> ...


Amen bother


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Here-I-Come said:


> Amen bother


X2


at the end of the day, you're listening to the music, not the specs. Sure they can help point you in the right direction, but they are not an absolute...


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> X2
> 
> 
> at the end of the day, you're listening to the music, not the specs. Sure they can help point you in the right direction, but they are not an absolute...


I have to also agree, one example is those who have had wonderful success with efficient pro drivers even though they have FAR less than "ideal" IB characteristics.


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## SQfreak (Feb 13, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> It really comes down to experience.
> 
> So, in essence, if the HAT drivers are something you like, then great. By all means, if they hold value for you then get them. I just have a hard time swallowing the price. I'd rather try 5 sets of cheaper drivers for the same price as one set of HAT drivers. There's a part of me that says I could get the same performance out of one of those 5. Then again I might not find something as suitable in my install as the HAT driver. Six of one, half a dozen of another.


I agree 100%! I don't know about you but I got tired, after all the years I spent when I was young blowing thousands of dollars on retail garbage only to find it all so lacking. Then the realization that I could've had it at half the price, well call me jaded. One of my good friends (who is on this forum too) has given me a hard time in past because I almost never buy something nowadays unless it's a 'deal'. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. 

If a manufacturer wants my cash now they will have to prove their worth for me to even consider purchasing them to test. The retail price of the driver is completely meaningless. Anyone can gold plate poop and charge a bajillion dollars for it. So what? Is it worth the cost or am I just getting duped by my own sense of 'high cost = better performance'. 

No, MiniVanMan has the gist of it. Find your own way, learn and experiment and don't ever put faith in a price to find performance.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Correlating listening impressions to empirical data is the best way to make progress for those of us without a perfect mental image of ideal musical reproduction. Comparing installed driver A to installed driver B is going to result in a heavy slant toward driver B - unless we switch back to driver A. Different sounds better to most people, until it doesn't anymore and by then the memory of driver A has faded.

This isn't evolution vs. creationism. Science and subjective impressions are equally relevant when it comes to developing your ear and working your way toward where you want to be.

The idea that useful knowledge can only be gotten from vetted personal relationships became obsolete in 1440. Represented in this thread alone and having a long history here, Chad, Neil and MiniVanMan (sorry to any I missed) have all made important contributions to the understanding of every member of this forum who has bothered to read what they write. Not knowing any of them personally doesn't diminish what we can learn from them and others. Limiting input has a way of defining results. Whether or not I'd trust any of them to handle my finances or spend time with my girlfriend doesn't enter into it at all. It doesn't even matter if their car audio goals are the same as mine or not.

Are HAT's products objectively worth the price? I have no idea. Would other test results help us answer that question for ourselves? I think so. These discussions frequently go back to npdang's review and questions about his methodology. When asked: 



ca90ss said:


> Scott, do you have measurements of your own that will refute the data provided by NPDang?


Scott responded:



Scott Buwalda said:


> Yes I do. The testing was done in a fully equipped testing facility in England. I have invited the third-party tester to this thread to give a synopsis of his findings. His name is William Backhouse (his name should ring a bell for a few of you as being one of England's premier experts in the field).


This suggests to me that Scott Buwalda thinks they have some value. The expert tester never posted and as far as I know, the results were never made public, but someone may be able to point me in the right direction. Googling *William Backhouse Hybrid Audio* brings up a link to hybrid-audio.com and this entry:
*Team UK Technical/Engineering Member:* William Backhouse. 
(Not that there is anything wrong with that).


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> You two are reading what you want to into my responses.
> 
> I wouldn't trust a single person who post reguarly on this forum. Not one. The people I trust don't post here. Some use to---they got tired and left. Others have never been here. I would advise people not to trust a single person who post on this forum on a regular basis if they are just starting out.


Then why are you here?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> Then why are you here?


Maybe to impart his own view?


This reminds me of another situation... 

I was in the car after eating dinner with a couple friends. We were going to head home, and I plugged in our destination into my navigation. One of my friends piped up that I shouldn't go the way the nav was telling me to. He says there are a lot of lights on that road, and I should go using his route. My other friend piped up that indeed the nav was wrong, but that the first friends route would take us 5 miles out of our way. He suggested yet a third route. This route avoided the lights, and avoided the extra 5 miles, but would have had me going 35mph the whole way. 

At the end of the day, Route 1 might have put slightly more wear and tear on my brakes, and required a little more driving effort on my part stopping at lights and such and taken some extra time. Route 2 might have take me 5 miles out of the way, but used 65mph roads with no lights, it probably would have been the fastest, but cost me a little more in gas (assuming mpg's stayed the same. Route 3 would have taken a little longer to get home, but would have avoided extra wear and tear on the car, and extra gas useage. 


My point is this. Any one of those roads would have gotten me home. Had I not looked at my watch, or my odometer, or my gas guage, I probably would never have thought I went the wrong way no matter which way I took. 

The funniest part was how adamant both of my friends were that their route was better than my navs. If I didn't go their way, they would be pissed off, and call me an idiot. They would tell me how I wasted $ on gas, or wasted time. They couldn't see that I simply wanted to go home. I didn't care about spending a little more, or taking a little more time. I just wanted to avoid the debate over something so minor. 

It was at that point that I told them I was going my own way, and they needed to stfu. 

Neither of them bothered to ask what was important to me about how to get home. Neither of them cared that my back hurt, and I just wanted to go the way I knew had the least amount of potholes. All they knew was that they were right, and anyone who wasn't them was wrong. They were so stuck beleiving there was only one correct way home, that they forgot that I was the one who was driving.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Maybe to impart his own view?
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another situation...
> ...


I like that story. Good job dude!


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> I wouldn't trust a single person who post reguarly on this forum. Not one. The people I trust don't post here. Some use to---they got tired and left. Others have never been here. I would advise people not to trust a single person who post on this forum on a regular basis if they are just starting out.


Wtf, did you just insult the whole forum? You must be here to make money, good luck with that too.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Maybe to impart his own view?
> 
> 
> This reminds me of another situation...
> ...



Great point! After all, its the end result that matters. We all have different reasons for taking the route that we take, and they are ALL perfectly justifiable and correct. The only route that isn't correct is a route that is taken despite your own needs. If you were on a very tight budget and your car was about to fall to pieces you would have picked the most appropriate route. However, if a few nickles on gas didn't mean much but you had a long day and you were mentally drained, a more familiar route would be more appropriate.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Because I've had YET to hear you EVER mention how a speaker sounds. Not even once. It's ALWAYS about its measurments and specs. Every...single...time.


You've been around for a while, but you've not been paying attention it seems.



quality_sound said:


> And that's where you're missing out IMO. That's part of the fun of the hobby.


For me the "fun of the hobby" is falling into the seat, turning the key, and having my drive enhanced by whatever music strikes my fancy at that moment. Everything else is, ultimately, just tedium. Some people enjoy the building process. I don't. I do enjoy the design process, but not nearly as much as hearing said design realized on my favorite tunes.



quality_sound said:


> Not to mention, being priomitive doesn't mean it doesn't work just as well as a newer design. How old is the wheel?


Good point. The kind of thing I'm talking about is the equivalent of someone selling a heavy steel wheel for 3x the cost of a lightweight forged alloy wheel.



quality_sound said:


> Maybe, maybe not. But since all we know if your car is that the stereo doesn't take up any space I guess we'll never know.


You really, really haven't been paying attention. My "augmented wideband" approach to Miata system design is probably the most dissected type of system for those cars on the internet.



quality_sound said:


> Out of curiosity, do you listen to music for enjoyment or do you use the music to critically evaluate the system?


Audio is an envelope. The music is the letter from your loved one inside of it.



a$$hole said:


> People who just like the way they sound
> 
> News
> 
> ...


Except for the dude who posts here, I've never heard of any of those people. (I assume "Dave Brooks" is not NYT columnist David Brooks.) So their names, not terribly relevant to me.



Andy Jones said:


> Not all of us live paycheck to paycheck. Not all of us have stupid amounts of debt. So we can do things we enjoy.


There is certainly nothing a priori wrong with high cost products. There are levels of performance and craftsmanship that require sophisticated engineering and painstaking work by skilled craftsman, or unique materials. Certainly, the people behind those products deserve compensation for their labor.

Problem is, many car-fi marketed products, such as the L8's, have the high price without any of the above qualities that can justify it. As someone who is basically price-insensitive but very value-conscious, that rankles. For instance, I consider the overcoat I recently commissioned out of a vintage coating fabric (vicuna with a smidgen of cashmere) to be a very good value. It was well into the five figures in EUR, considerably more than I paid for my car. A machine-made nylon Prada raincoat for 1200USD, by contrast, disgusts me.

Likewise, something like a Seas Excel driver (though the mag cone ones traits that I don't prefer) or a ScanSpeak (even though the 8545 is possibly my least favorite "good" 7" midwoofer ever) has obvious engineering and craftsmanship behind it, over and above say a Peerless HDS Exclusive. So they are objectively worth a higher price than the HDS, even though for my personal sonic preferences the HDS would be my pick over either in most applications.



Neil said:


> Every manufacturer who claims superiority (either through price, marketing, or both) should be required to provide evidence supporting that claim.


Indeed. I think this forum came about because of a desire to separate the wheat from the chaff. And maybe to laugh at the chaff a little bit.

That it seems many people here would rather return to the days of alchemy is quite off-putting, really.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)




----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> You've been around for a while, but you've not been paying attention it seems.


He's not the only one with that opinion. Most here seem to think the same thing. 



DS-21 said:


> For me the "fun of the hobby" is falling into the seat, turning the key, and having my drive enhanced by whatever music strikes my fancy at that moment. Everything else is, ultimately, just tedium. Some people enjoy the building process. I don't. I do enjoy the design process, but not nearly as much as hearing said design realized on my favorite tunes.


For most, the sense of accomplishment when they acheive the results they were looking for makes the journey fun. Showing others how they solved problems with their own setup is also fun. 



DS-21 said:


> Good point. The kind of thing I'm talking about is the equivalent of someone selling a heavy steel wheel for 3x the cost of a lightweight forged alloy wheel.


Some steel wheels can be as strong, or stronger than a lightweight alloy. They're also way less brittle and prone to cracking. The finish seems to be more durable as well. In certain situations, i'd prefer a steelie to my BBS's, and provided they were well made OEM steelie's with a warranty, I'd pay a good price for them if I were to say... off road, or race in ice/snow. 



DS-21 said:


> You really, really haven't been paying attention. My "augmented wideband" approach to Miata system design is probably the most dissected type of system for those cars on the internet.


I've never seen you mention anything about your system on this forum. 



DS-21 said:


> Audio is an envelope. The music is the letter from your loved one inside of it.


Nah, the audio is the paper and the ink, the music is the writing and thoughts of the person who wrote on the paper.





DS-21 said:


> Except for the dude who posts here, I've never heard of any of those people. (I assume "Dave Brooks" is not NYT columnist David Brooks.) So their names, not terribly relevant to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who says Scott didn't put a lot of thought into his drivers, and spend a lot of time deciding how they should be built. Just because he doesn't sit in the factory doesn't mean his experience in driver design, and competitive use of his own products in real world situations doesn't add value to the driver. 



DS-21 said:


> Likewise, something like a Seas Excel driver (though the mag cone ones traits that I don't prefer) or a ScanSpeak (even though the 8545 is possibly my least favorite "good" 7" midwoofer ever) has obvious engineering and craftsmanship behind it, over and above say a Peerless HDS Exclusive. So they are objectively worth a higher price than the HDS, even though for my personal sonic preferences the HDS would be my pick over either in most applications.


I really wonder how many of these drivers that you "don't prefer" have actually seen any use in your car for any length of time





DS-21 said:


> Indeed. I think this forum came about because of a desire to separate the wheat from the chaff. And maybe to laugh at the chaff a little bit.
> 
> That it seems many people here would rather return to the days of alchemy is quite off-putting, really.


I think you're a little off on the origins of the forum. I'm relatively new here, but from all accounts i've heard, the point of the forum was to show that there are less expensive alternatives to commercially marketed product, not to prove that said alternatives are inherently better when cost is no object.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> I like that story. Good job dude!


Did you just appreciate something I said? How is that possible? :laugh:

Thanks...


----------



## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

**** science and graphs and all that nerd ****! 

I bet they invented penicillin by talking about which kind of mold tasted the most 'velvety' and then going with the one that had the most 'snap'.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

dkm201 said:


> **** science and graphs and all that nerd ****!
> 
> I bet they invented penicillin by talking about which kind of mold tasted the most 'velvety' and then going with the one that had the most 'snap'.


Hmmm... I don't think they had PC's for testing back in the '20's, so I'd assume they figured out which culture got them penicillin that had the strongest effects on their test subjects. I doubt they argued about what penicillin strain had the lowest BL, or the best FR on their chart, and probably just looked at which patient was getting better. 



BTW "A moldy cantaloupe in a Peoria, Illinois market in 1943 was found to contain the best and highest-quality penicillin after a worldwide search."


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I've never seen you mention anything about your system on this forum.


He's mentioned it a bunch. If memory serves, he's running the SLS8 with one of the Aura widebanders (the NS3?). His recommendation in one of the threads about how the Aura sounds was one of the reasons I chose that driver for a center channel in my last setup, IIRC. 

In any case, I thought it was intriguing when he described it years ago, and still think it's a relatively unique but highly effective approach to car audio. More people should do it. I originally bought the materials to do the same setup in my new car (different drivers, same idea), partly based on his review. So I'm not sure why people are saying he doesn't talk about those things.

Oh...and what were the other things I based my decision on aside from the experiences he reported? Numbers.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

dkm201 said:


> **** science and graphs and all that nerd ****!
> 
> I bet they invented penicillin by talking about which kind of mold tasted the most 'velvety' and then going with the one that had the most 'snap'.


I know right, all those dorky doctors spending their life in labs. 

Hell we should all design our own speakers at home depot and spread the word around. I would set my M.S.R.P. at ridiculous levels to prove their worth. I would then sell them at half price to trick those few doubtful people into thinking they've got a deal. I can polish the back of the turd in my back yard and associate it with other shiny things like trophies, expensive cars, and make the appeal to superiority by having Chuck Norris recommend them.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> He's mentioned it a bunch. If memory serves, he's running the SLS8 with one of the Aura widebanders (the NS3?). His recommendation in one of the threads about how the Aura sounds was one of the reasons I chose that driver for a center channel in my last setup, IIRC.
> 
> In any case, I thought it was intriguing when he described it years ago, and still think it's a relatively unique but highly effective approach to car audio. More people should do it. I originally bought the materials to do the same setup in my new car (different drivers, same idea), partly based on his review. So I'm not sure why people are saying he doesn't talk about those things.
> 
> Oh...and what were the other things I based my decision on aside from the experiences he reported? Numbers.



Maybe it was all the posts he had crapping on any driver that doesn't use faraday rings or XBL^2 motors that obscured those posts from my view.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

The next Legatias will be made for DS-21, [proposed cone material = (vicuna with a smidgen of cashmere) to be a very good value ].



:laugh:


----------



## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

bretti_kivi said:


> me too. Timewise, especially.
> 
> Anyway, can we have a whine from the OP about crapping on his thread again now instead of all this reasonable argumentation about why numbers reveal lots but still hide some aspects?
> 
> Bret



Why don't you answer the original subject matter smart ass. That hasn't been touched the whole thread long. Other than folks saying they don't look the same. This thread has taken a life of its own and thats great. It has been entertaining as well as informative. There are many people that have strong opinions here and seem to have good reason.

All this talk about science and numbers is making me dizzy. I don't pretend to completely understand all of it but learn it as I go. I work in the industry and learn something new every day. I go to every training I can because I never know what I could pick up. Here on DIYMA I again have learned a lot. I have heard many many drivers over my 15 years in car audio. I will always sit and listen and listen and listen to decide what I like the sound of. I could give two craps about numbers specs and scientific equations. They have their place but auditioning a set of speakers is the only way I will buy them. I have to admit I am placing myself out on a limb with this set of HAT drivers. I have not heard them. If I don't like them I'll sell them just like has been discussed here a ton. 

To DS-21 I LOVE my bloated 05 STi with too many mods to list. It has way more power than I need and I love it. I guess you would say it "feels" good!!!! Oh wait did I mention it corners well too. Not just a one trick pony. It isn't a Miata though so I guess I'll never understand.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Nothing like a good ol **** slurry [ ECA style ]

Til it went belly up ECA use to have some of these poison pen letter givers, [ Schuey was a member there too ].


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> He's not the only one with that opinion. Most here seem to think the same thing.


Don't assume that most people are as ignorant as you appear to be.




WRX/Z28 said:


> For most, the sense of accomplishment when they acheive the results they were looking for makes the journey fun. Showing others how they solved problems with their own setup is also fun.


You seem to have a pronounced pronoun problem. You don't understand the difference between "most" and "me." When one talks about what s/he personally enjoys, one should use the first person singular.



WRX/Z28 said:


> He's not the only one with that opinion. Most here seem to think the same thing.


Don't assume that most people are as ignorant as you appear to be.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Some steel wheels can be as strong, or stronger than a lightweight alloy.


Strength, of course, isn't the issue. Mass is. I apologize for posting with the assumption that you understood about the deleterious effects of unsprung mass in an automobile.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Who says Scott didn't put a lot of thought into his drivers,


The specification implies that either he didn't, or if he did, he did not know enough about it to make informed decisions.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I really wonder how many of these drivers that you "don't prefer" have actually seen any use in your car for any length of time


Frankly, none. I have one cars whose driver complement above the subs has _never_ changed since roughly 1994 or 1995 (KEF KAR System 160Q coincident drivers up front, Audax HM130Z0's used for rear-fill). For the other, none of those drivers are appropriate for my augmented wideband approach. So why would I have tried them?

But I fail to see why that matters in the slightest. There's nothing magical whatsoever about listening to a driver "in your car." I've used them, I know what their measured and audible foibles are. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I think you're a little off on the origins of the forum.


You may think whatever you like, but that does not make you correct.



MarkZ said:


> He's mentioned it a bunch. If memory serves, he's running the SLS8 with one of the Aura widebanders (the NS3?).


I wish. The NS3's don't fit. So I use the NSW2 "Whisper." Though on Friday I'm _finally_ going to experiment with the 2" Peerlesses I bought from John Krutke in July or so, and replace the Whispers with those Trio8's that have been sitting in my cellar for months now.



a$$hole said:


> The next Legatias will be made for DS-21, [proposed cone material = (vicuna with a smidgen of cashmere) to be a very good value ].


Waaay too soft. And thick. I never thought that a fabric could be worth four figures per yard. Until I touched this stuff. My God.

Moreover, were I to commission my own bespoke drivers, I wouldn't go through a middleman/marketer. I'd be talking directly to consultants who have designed high quality drivers. You know, people such as Stephen Mowry, Dan Wiggins, and Nick McKinney.



1slysti said:


> To DS-21 I LOVE my bloated 05 STi with too many mods to list. It has way more power than I need and I love it. I guess you would say it "feels" good!!!! Oh wait did I mention it corners well too. Not just a one trick pony. It isn't a Miata though so I guess I'll never understand.


That's all fine. I happen to think the STi is a great drive as well. None of that makes it (or any of the WRC-inspired hot hatches, or any 3500 lb coupe, or anything just because it has an "M", "S" or "R" in the model designation) a _sports car._


----------



## BTA (Nov 5, 2005)

I'd like to add to this clusterF**k the following:

Critical Mass = rebadged Tang Band and sucks.

*waits patiently for Buzzman and Kaiman*


----------



## BTA (Nov 5, 2005)

Screw you double post


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

There is a couple of different reasons to buy speakers, your reason is ____ ?



Graphs , charts, etc..,

So and so said they were the ....

price, I can afford these so....

I heard them and they sounded .....


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> He's probably referring to the part where you invoked a list of names in an appeal to authority, and justified that authority by mentioning that they won 10 championships.



If you go back and look I didn't list the names. Someone else did, then I responded with




Andy Jones said:


> ^^ 8 names, 10 world championships. Not all using Hybrid equipment, but still that's a nice list to be on. Though it has nothing to do with how a driver sounds, still a nice list to be on




Notice I said it had nothing to do with how a driver sounds.


You guys seriously need to pull your head out of your ass and quit looking for something that isn't there.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

now i see why people on the forum cant seem to get anyhitng installed in their cars 

dont care too much about this whole debate, even though i myself in the past have had certain strong opinions about HAT...

but i have an idea why Schuey would dislike HAT, but as far as knowledge about car audio goes, i would say hes one of the better informed on the forum.

just my opinion, dont shoot me for it


----------



## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> now i see why people on the forum cant seem to get anyhitng installed in their cars
> 
> dont care too much about this whole debate, even though i myself in the past have had certain strong opinions about HAT...
> 
> ...



I know your name from another "insider" forum and you have respect there as well as some really great installs. Based on your statement about Schuey would you agree with his post on my original thread.

People really seem to be avoiding the main question.


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^Honestly his post shouldn't bother you. Install the hybrids. Listen to them. If you like them, move on in life. If you don't like them buy something else and try them out. Rinse and repeat until you are happy. At least in my world that is how this thing works.


----------



## smellygas (Feb 21, 2008)

dkm201 said:


> **** science and graphs and all that nerd ****!
> 
> I bet they invented penicillin by talking about which kind of mold tasted the most 'velvety' and then going with the one that had the most 'snap'.


Before "science, graphs, and all that nerd sh_t," the practice of medicine consisted of bloodletting and leeches, and your barber was also your surgeon. I can only imagine what the equivalent of car stereo would be...

SG


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

smellygas said:


> Before "science, graphs, and all that nerd sh_t," the practice of medicine consisted of bloodletting and leeches, and your barber was also your surgeon. I can only imagine what the equivalent of car stereo would be...
> 
> SG


Your are forgetting maggots doubled as a doctor too. But anyway, I think I can give you a taste of what car stereo would be: welcome the cowbell: YouTube - Acri SNL cowbell


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy, it's not important that you trust any of us. In fact, since I've never met you, and we've never traded information, then there's no reason you should.

Werewolf left because of personal threats, not the audio discussions. He was always willing to fight the good fight, and he always backed himself up with hard data. He's actually VERY missed here by many because of that. If he was fed up with the audio discussions, it was because he was sick of repeating himself to the believers in voodoo magic. Yet, you get on us because we are trying to carry on that kind of legacy.

Npdang left because it was too much work for a man getting married, and trying to start a new life. Again, it wasn't the audio discussions. Npdang can still be found floating around though.

I'm assuming the second is 'dang. If not, it doesn't really matter. Point being is we formed our own good ole boy club here, and we have a different set of rules. Just like your good ole boy club on ECA has it's own rules for membership. 

That's what we're actually seeing here. Good ole boy clubs going at it. I personally think we have more ******** though. They're much more stubborn and willing to bring a shotgun to the fight, and maybe an angry possum or two. 

Many of the members are jaded here as they've been screwed out of a lot of money. Hell I jumped on the CDT bandwagon way back. They're not bad speakers. But I sure as hell can get them for less than what CDT wants for their stamp. So, many of us want to see what these manufacturers are really about. I don't think that's wrong. I've never owned another Focal driver since my old set back in the mid 90's. One reason is I was extremely new and paid a ton of money for a set of speakers that didn't work. Why didn't they work? Because I was uneducated and didn't know how to really install them. Still left a bad taste in my mouth. So the same thing can be said here. What are we really trying to accomplish? Well it's not selling speakers. It's teaching people how to make the most of their money, and finding where the true value is in a performance install. A lot of people get very butt hurt when we say that the speaker is not the end all, be all of the install. 

How much does Alpine want for a set of F1 mids, based on the Scan Rev? Same with Genesis? I really don't know, but I would be surprised if they were the same retail price as a set of Revs I could buy on Madisound. So, they had better come to me with a reason why. That's fair.

It does come down to trust. You don't trust us, and we don't trust them (the infamous "them"). This is the Missouri of car audio forums. 

If you don't think people should listen to other people on forums then why do you post on them? What puts you above the crowd? The answer is ego. You are really coming off with a "listen to me, and don't trust anybody else attitude". We'd love to accept you with open arms for just your experience alone, but you have yourself on a pedestal, and this good ole boy club is just a little too down to Earth to be praying to mortal gods like that.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Don't assume that most people are as ignorant as you appear to be.


There is no assuming being done. I was simply going off of others comments in other threads as well as this one. Assuming that i'm assuming, is an incorrect assumption. lol




DS-21 said:


> You seem to have a pronounced pronoun problem. You don't understand the difference between "most" and "me." When one talks about what s/he personally enjoys, one should use the first person singular.


My english is fine, your understanding of it is what's flawed. There is a reason people are on a DIY forum, and it's not because they enjoy having it done for them. 



DS-21 said:


> Don't assume that most people are as ignorant as you appear to be.


Again, no assumption here... nor am I ignorant. I'm pretty sure I have your general Modus Operandi pegged...



DS-21 said:


> Strength, of course, isn't the issue. Mass is. I apologize for posting with the assumption that you understood about the deleterious effects of unsprung mass in an automobile.


You don't think strength is an issue when it comes to wheels on many types of race cars? Then why not save yourself some money and buy some cast wheels? I'll stick with my forged lightweight BBS's to keep unsprung mass down, along with hollow swaybars, and some other minor tricks. What wheels are on your miata? 





DS-21 said:


> The specification implies that either he didn't, or if he did, he did not know enough about it to make informed decisions.


Having read a thread where he explained some of his decisions IIRC (i'm not digging back to find it) to you, I'd say this statement is false. 




DS-21 said:


> Frankly, none. I have one cars whose driver complement above the subs has _never_ changed since roughly 1994 or 1995 (KEF KAR System 160Q coincident drivers up front, Audax HM130Z0's used for rear-fill). For the other, none of those drivers are appropriate for my augmented wideband approach. So why would I have tried them?


So how can you bash them without ever trying them? That's a little like criticizing a movie you've only read the synopsis of. 



DS-21 said:


> But I fail to see why that matters in the slightest. There's nothing magical whatsoever about listening to a driver "in your car." I've used them, I know what their measured and audible foibles are.


Really, so they perform the same in every situation in every car? That's idiotic of you to assume... hmmm... weren't we just talking about assumptions?

You've been using the same drivers since 1995ish? Old technology? Yet you claim to think drivers with old motors are inferior? Do your KEF's have XBL^2 or Faraday rings? 





DS-21 said:


> You may think whatever you like, but that does not make you correct.


Nor does it make you correct. I don't see DS-21 AKA NPDang as your user title...




DS-21 said:


> That's all fine. I happen to think the STi is a great drive as well. None of that makes it (or any of the WRC-inspired hot hatches, or any 3500 lb coupe, or anything just because it has an "M", "S" or "R" in the model designation) a _sports car._


Hmmm... don't know what wrx is 3500lbs. Mine sits at a svelte 2900. Granted I shaved around 150lbs off of her, but even still, it wasn't 3500lbs previously. 
Where are you getting your numbers from?


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

No, I've said several times you shouldn't trust me either. You should only trust yourself (and a very select few that you've heard their cars and know they hear things the same way you do---good and bad things).

I'm just another person posting. Just because I hit a few keys doesn't mean anyone should take what I say as the truth. Look at what I say, test it and see if it works. It just might, or it might not. Only way to know is to test.

Why do I post on forums? The same reason I read them, hoping to have something triggered in my head that will lead to a better system in my car. I read a lot of forums and never post on them. Even ideas that come off as completely stupid to me, I test them out. You never know what will work and what won't work.

That was my entire point here in this thread. Don't rely on other people (including me), do your own work. That is where you will learn the most and how you will get the best system. Listen to other people, look at test and at numbers, but do the work yourself.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

1slysti said:


> I know your name from another "insider" forum and you have respect there as well as some really great installs. Based on your statement about Schuey would you agree with his post on my original thread.
> 
> People really seem to be avoiding the main question.


like i said, i dont want to jump into this at all 

i guess my end point is

would i do the same kind of post as he did? prolly not.

do i understand in a sense why he made the post? yes i do

thats all i have to say about that


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

1slysti said:


> People really seem to be avoiding the main question.


WTF do you think this is, Judge Judy?

Your OP blew, so we found something interesting to discuss instead. If you haven't gotten over it by now, GET OVER IT.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> There is no assuming being done. I was simply going off of others comments in other threads as well as this one. Assuming that i'm assuming, is an incorrect assumption. lol


A comment by one person in a member pool of thousands does not a "most" make.




WRX/Z28 said:


> My english is fine, your understanding of it is what's flawed. There is a reason people are on a DIY forum, and it's not because they enjoy having it done for them.


I think many (note the semantic difference between "many" and "most") would be just fine if someone else did it for them, as long as the results were equivalent. Likewise, many enjoy many different aspects of the process. That's all well and good. In the realm of preferences, I can only speak to my own.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You don't think strength is an issue when it comes to wheels on many types of race cars?


Nice scope shift to _race_ cars. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> What wheels are on your miata?


16" x 7" Minilite replicas by Panasport.








(not my picture)

I consider the Minilites one of the most attractive wheel designs of all time.



WRX/Z28 said:


> So how can you bash them without ever trying them? That's a little like criticizing a movie you've only read the synopsis of.


Actually, the better movie analogy is that you're saying my views on a movie are invalid because I saw that movie in the theater instead of on an LCD in somebody's dashboard...



WRX/Z28 said:


> Really, so they perform the same in every situation in every car?


There are sonic attributes that carry over regardless of location, yes. There are some that may be masked in given locations, but with some experience and intelligence one can pretty much figure that kind of thing out ahead of time. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> There is no assuming being done. I was simply going off of others comments in other threads as well as this one. Assuming that i'm assuming, is an incorrect assumption. lol


A comment by one person in a member pool of thousands does not a "most" make.




WRX/Z28 said:


> My english is fine, your understanding of it is what's flawed. There is a reason people are on a DIY forum, and it's not because they enjoy having it done for them.


I think many (note the semantic difference between "many" and "most") would be just fine if someone else did it for them, as long as the results were equivalent. Likewise, many enjoy many different aspects of the process. That's all well and good. In the realm of preferences, I can only speak to my own.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You don't think strength is an issue when it comes to wheels on many types of race cars?


Nice scope shift to _race_ cars. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> What wheels are on your miata?


16" x 7" Minilite replicas by Panasport.








(not my picture)

I consider the Minilites one of the most attractive wheel designs of all time.



WRX/Z28 said:


> So how can you bash them without ever trying them? That's a little like criticizing a movie you've only read the synopsis of.


Actually, the better movie analogy is that you're saying my views on a movie are invalid because I saw that movie in the theater instead of on an LCD in somebody's dashboard...



WRX/Z28 said:


> You've been using the same drivers since 1995ish? Old technology? Yet you claim to think drivers with old motors are inferior? Do your KEF's have XBL^2 or Faraday rings?


Faraday rings yes, XBL^2 obviously no. But there's nothing obviously superior to them out yet. (That includes the Seas Excel coincident drivers, because KEF does a much better job with the tweeter-cone waveguide transition on their Uni-Q's than Seas does.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> mmm... don't know what wrx is 3500lbs


Reread my sentence, please. Your reading comprehension deficiencies are showing again.


----------



## smellygas (Feb 21, 2008)

MiniVanMan said:


> If he was fed up with the audio discussions, it was because he was sick of repeating himself to the believers in voodoo magic.


I'm starting to feel that way too. 



> I personally think we have more ******** though. They're much more stubborn and willing to bring a shotgun to the fight, and maybe an angry possum or two.


I think demographically, the ******* stereotype probably makes up a large portion of car audio enthusiasts. 



> How much does Alpine want for a set of F1 mids, based on the Scan Rev? Same with Genesis? I really don't know, but I would be surprised if they were the same retail price as a set of Revs I could buy on Madisound. So, they had better come to me with a reason why. That's fair.


The F1 3-way set from Alpine goes for about $3000+ or so. The corresponding drivers from Madisound (R2904, 12m, 18w) cost $1600. So where does the difference go?
1) the Alpine crossovers, designed for these drivers mounted in a car, and they use high-end parts. This is basically priceless, unless you have a sophisticated and flexible active system + measurement equipment, or you're a veteran crossover designer.
2) the 12m cone material uses a wood pulp rather than uncoated paper, which makes it waterproof. The stock 12m has a paper cone and is vulnerable to water/moisture. 
3) the 18W also has a water resistant cone 
4) the R2904 faceplate size is reduced, so it's less obstrusive to mount
5) all the drivers come with good-looking grilles that fit perfectly - cosmetically, this set looks superb inside and out
6) all the drivers have modified terminals that are very durable (vs. the flimsy solder terminals)
7) all the R&D and other costs required to modify and test existing Scanspeak drivers and develop them for use in a car, plus the knowledge that the sales volume of this model would be low

If you can get the Alpine set for <$2k, you're getting an incredibly hot deal, considering the above...and that is my opinion only.

SG


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Just to make sure I wasn't going crazy I clicked the link, this is all that Schuey_1 said:

"Wow nice speaker "

"http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8444"

"Good luck on your install and let me know when you start competing maybe i will see you in the lanes. "

then the conversation got moved here.

Hardly worth the drama. I most definitely don't think this man should be flogged publicly like the OP would like. Actually it's no more than a reasonable inquiry, if that, he didn't actually form a statement :laugh:


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Just to make sure I wasn't going crazy I clicked the link, this is all that Schuey_1 said:
> 
> "Wow nice speaker "
> 
> ...


That's the edited version. Shuey went back edited his post after the drama ensued.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> A comment by one person in a member pool of thousands does not a "most" make.




Dude, reread my sentence. You're comprehension of the word "others" is suspect here. 






DS-21 said:


> I think many (note the semantic difference between "many" and "most") would be just fine if someone else did it for them, as long as the results were equivalent. Likewise, many enjoy many different aspects of the process. That's all well and good. In the realm of preferences, I can only speak to my own.



I've noted it, i'd still choose "most" as the word i'd use being that I beleive "most" is the case. 




DS-21 said:


> Nice scope shift to _race_ cars.



Race, sports, performance, muscle: minor distinctions between similar themes.

Strength is important in Sports cars wheels too. 



DS-21 said:


> 16" x 7" Minilite replicas by Panasport.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think they're ugly as sin. Reminiscent of the wheels you see on the wall in Sears tire centers, or Pep Boys. The fact that they are replica's indicates that they most likely are cast wheels (cast wheels are generally not strong or light, just cheap to manufacture). Most replica companys don't recreate things using the forging process. It would defeat the purpose behind making a replica to begin with since forging is so expensive. 



DS-21 said:


> Actually, the better movie analogy is that you're saying my views on a movie are invalid because I saw that movie in the theater instead of on an LCD in somebody's dashboard...



Definately not. That's not even close there bud... try again. 

Your statement is akin to "That musician is a terrible songwriter on your speakers, and is great on mine" 





DS-21 said:


> There are sonic attributes that carry over regardless of location, yes. There are some that may be masked in given locations, but with some experience and intelligence one can pretty much figure that kind of thing out ahead of time.



Personal experience says that speakers can sound incredibly different from one car to the next, and dependant on the installation, baffle, sound deadening involved as well. You disagree?



DS-21 said:


> A comment by one person in a member pool of thousands does not a "most" make.



Again, comprehend the word "others". Here, I'll help you out: Others definition | Dictionary.com




DS-21 said:


> Faraday rings yes, XBL^2 obviously no. But there's nothing obviously superior to them out yet. (That includes the Seas Excel coincident drivers, because KEF does a much better job with the tweeter-cone waveguide transition on their Uni-Q's than Seas does.)



Ooops, old technology there buddy. They must suck!



DS-21 said:


> Reread my sentence, please. Your reading comprehension deficiencies are showing again.


Somehow you brought up 3500lb cars in the same paragraph with STi. So either you were straying off the topic, or you are a moron. Which is it?


----------



## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

panasports are better wheels than the original vintage minilites.

they are also not made of magnesium and so don;t require tubes or catch on fire... 

forged wheels? in the 50s? you were lucky to not get wires or steel.

cliffs: dangers of assuming. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
opinions are like assholes.
everyone has one, and everyone thinks theirs stinks less


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Attack eagle said:


> panasports are better wheels than the original vintage minilites.
> 
> they are also not made of magnesium and so don;t require tubes or catch on fire...
> 
> ...



Better how? They certainly didn't make them look any better...


This was my point though, everyone has an oppinion and everyone thinks theirs is the only "correct" one.

Haven't ever heard of any magnesium wheels catching fire, although i'm sure it would be very bad if they did.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> Your are forgetting maggots doubled as a doctor too. But anyway, I think I can give you a taste of what car stereo would be: welcome the cowbell: YouTube - Acri SNL cowbell


Maggots are still used and are a VERY good way of getting rid of dead tissue, especially for patients that are too weak for surgery.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> No, I've said several times you shouldn't trust me either. You should only trust yourself (and a very select few that you've heard their cars and know they hear things the same way you do---good and bad things).
> 
> I'm just another person posting. Just because I hit a few keys doesn't mean anyone should take what I say as the truth. Look at what I say, test it and see if it works. It just might, or it might not. Only way to know is to test.
> 
> ...


Okay we agree. It ultimately comes down to how much legwork you're willing to do. 

You can't deny that there are some fundamental truths though when it comes to audio. Physics is physics after all. Ultimately, it's a compromise, and why I'm in this hobby as well. It's much more challenging than home audio with much worse results. I'm a masochist.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> ^^ 8 names, 10 world championships. Not all using Hybrid equipment, but still that's a nice list to be on. Though it has nothing to do with how a driver sounds, still a nice list to be on


Countless Tours, Not one crashed show, Monitor engineer for some decent sized bands who not one have failed to ask me on tour but couldn't afford me, countless hours tuning concert rigs that would freakin make YOUR head spin dealing with the acoustics of the room/alignments of the rig/and all the while making it sound good without any feedback problems on a stage filled with 30+mics just begging to squeal, running 130db++++ of stage volume without feedback while doing the same as above--keeping it sounding good without feedback, 



Andy Jones said:


> Chad--you seem to have some bitterness towards people who spend money on stuff they enjoy. Not sure why, but damn get the **** over it.
> 
> Not all of us live paycheck to paycheck. Not all of us have stupid amounts of debt. So we can do things we enjoy.
> 
> ...


getting worn out from that and going corporate so I bought a house, own a car (which by the way isn't doing to shappy with Strait up Passive JBL GTI's and those tuning skills) and not the expensive ass drivers some use and test and test and test..I got shelves full of drivers too...whats the prove??


When you start insulting people whom you don't know because they can't put up with your Ignorance...um...arrogance.. and then say you wouldn't trust any of them because they decided you weren't worth there time to get into you "elite" circle of trust...first time in my life my face actually burned when you tried to insult Chad..if your trusting people aren't here then WTF are you here for if we're all so stupid? Yeah there is some stupid people in here no doubt, but damn...your **** don't smell that good does it?


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^yea I think you forgot the complete thought. You seemed to have started in the middle, rambled for a while, then just walked away.

I literally have no clue what you were even trying to say. Not even a little bit.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

freakin dupe


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> your **** don't smell that good does it?


Maybe it does.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

It was more like irritation.

You can't read? 

You reminded us for the 12th time you think your the **** cuz you've one a few championships..and we're all stupid because you haven't heard our cars to know weather or not we listen like you

so i rattled off some accomplishments to basically say we don't give a **** how many championships you've won..and nobody really cares how many bands and systems I've engineered for

And attempting to insult us by saying we can't afford expensive drivers because we live paycheck to paycheck was dumb, because we're not all below you in a tax bracket..

it was a complete and long thought...try and keep up.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

show me where I brought up any world championships I won. Show me where I even mentioned how many I've won?

My comment about paycheck to paycheck was not aimed at anyone it was a comment in response to the ignorant statement that spending more than X amount on a driver was stupid because you can't hear a difference. Since the point obviously went over your head, the point was that "expensive" is all relevant to the person, and not for one person (not even Chad) to say. I never said I did or didn't live paycheck to paycheck

Again pull your head out of your ass and quit reading what you want into what I'm posting and read what I'm posting. Stand on a chair if it is going to far over your head


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> Again pull your head out of your ass and quit reading what you want into what I'm posting and read what I'm posting.


If you actually want people to understand what you're posting, you should consider expressing yourself somehow other than the above ego-stroking garbage.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

And the diyma community self destructs


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> show me where I brought up any world championships I won. Show me where I even mentioned how many I've won?



Heres one in this thread



Andy Jones said:


> ^^ 8 names, 10 world championships. Not all using Hybrid equipment, but still that's a nice list to be on. Though it has nothing to do with how a driver sounds, still a nice list to be on



Another from a quick search



Andy Jones said:


> ^I've done quite well with the autophile driver in competition. Top 8 at Tulsa Invitational round and Top 5 at Scrapin' The Coast for money rounds come to mind immediately.
> I also did quite well with the Hybrid L3 in competition. MECA world championship.


I quite sure there are more because it's only natural for you to ego stroke..

Did your mother tell you you were the bestest ever, alot when you were a kid to think so highly of yourself?


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

pwnt by pat said:


> And the diyma community self destructs


Yeah no kidding, I'm going to attempt to remove myself from this ECA style butt-hurt thread.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

damn dupe feature....


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> I quite sure there are more because it's only natural for you to ego stroke..


The complete collection minus this thread.


Andy Jones said:


> The people I was referring to that had worked with these include myself and a group of people that amongst them have over 10 world championships in various SQ organizations


...


Andy Jones said:


> My last competition system had 2 tweeters per a-pillar. That system did fairly well---IASCA world championship, CAN highest SQ score at SBN for one seat, and other various wins.
> 
> /random comment.


..


Andy Jones said:


> ^I've done quite well with the autophile driver in competition. Top 8 at Tulsa Invitational round and Top 5 at Scrapin' The Coast for money rounds come to mind immediately.
> 
> 
> I also did quite well with the Hybrid L3 in competition. MECA world championship.


...


Andy Jones said:


> With that philosphy I have won a world championship in all 3 organizatins (IASCA, MECA and USACi) so it can be done.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> Heres one in this thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No go back an read the post he was referring to. I'm pretty sure he wasn't even mentioned. All he was saying was that the people mentioned in said post are in a distinguished group. That's it. 

Man, some people will argue with a wall if there's nothing to argue about.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> No go back an read the post he was referring to. I'm pretty sure he wasn't even mentioned. All he was saying was that the people mentioned in said post are in a distinguished group. That's it.
> 
> Man, some people will argue with a wall if there's nothing to argue about.


He is on that list...thats why he said it was nice to be on their. I'm a non confrontational person btw, don't care for arguing.. its just aj's ego is a little frustrating at time.


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> The complete collection minus this thread.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Very nice collection there sir.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> No, I've said several times you shouldn't trust me either. You should only trust yourself (and a very select few that you've heard their cars and know they hear things the same way you do---good and bad things).
> 
> I'm just another person posting. Just because I hit a few keys doesn't mean anyone should take what I say as the truth. Look at what I say, test it and see if it works. It just might, or it might not. Only way to know is to test.
> 
> ...


I guess that's a good approach in theory, but not terribly practical. Not everyone treats their car as a giant guinea pig. Maybe that works if you're in the biz, or if you're so invested in tinkering that it's worth spending all your time doing those things, but "most people" (to borrow a phrase from WRX) aren't in that position. They're just not.

And, really, neither are you. You've undoubtedly tried a ton of speakers. Have you ever tried a Pyle PLDV6K? Probably not. Neither have I. So, why not? Probably because you found other options that you THINK better suit your goals for a number of different reasons. You have to start somewhere, right? And by "starting somewhere", I mean filtering out the VAST MAJORITY of loudspeakers manufactured in the world right now. In order to do that, it requires a lot of assumptions and TRUST in others.

I use this forum to help me with that starting point. I suppose I could compile a list of thousands of speakers to try, and then throw a dart at it and choose the one it lands on. Or, instead, I could take others' recommendations, reviews, and general experiences...assume they're not lying...couple that with maybe some manufacturer or third-party descriptions and specifications... All of those things narrow the field considerably.

So, as much as we all want to think that there are only a couple dozen speakers in this world that live up to our standards, we didn't arrive at that conclusion by demoing every speaker created.

As for me, I want to do as little installing as possible. I have **** to do. You're damned right I'm going to rely on the input from others to narrow the field. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And then I'll try something else. But I sure as hell don't want to horde speakers and plug new ones in every month. I'll try to get it right the first time, and will use whatever information necessary to make that happen.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Maggots are still used and are a VERY good way of getting rid of dead tissue, especially for patients that are too weak for surgery.


So are leaches. When reattaching fingers or limbs, the saliva of the leach can out perform anti clotting pharmaceuticals. The saliva allows the blood to flow without clotting in the re attached vessels.


----------



## 1slysti (Jan 31, 2009)

capnxtreme said:


> WTF do you think this is, Judge Judy?
> 
> Your OP blew, so we found something interesting to discuss instead. If you haven't gotten over it by now, GET OVER IT.


Ummm when you say "we" do you mean everyone else because I checked your posts and you have not contributed anything of any worth. I love how some people like to jump on the bandwagon but have no reason to do so.

Its also funny how some people don't realize that Shuey edited his post on the other site so it didn't look so bad although never deleted it like I asked. If he did I would never of posted again on this thread. I just wanted it gone.

Hell I would even be appreciative enough to thank him. I am not some ******* looking to hang someone out to dry. I just won't let someone crap on me without doing anything about it.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

smellygas said:


> The F1 3-way set from Alpine goes for about $3000+ or so.... The corresponding drivers from Madisound (R2904, 12m, 18w) cost $1600. So where does the difference go?
> 1) the Alpine crossovers, designed for these drivers mounted in a car, and they use high-end parts. This is basically priceless,


If by "priceless" you mean "they're only worth salvage value," you are correct. The crossover designer had no idea where the drivers would be mounted in relation to each other or to the listeners (in doors, ankle-biting, woofer in the door tweeter in the A-pillars, etc.). So how could they design anything but a pretty-looking hack cobbled together from impressive looking parts that can't possibly do its intended job properly?

A prefab passive crossover is a reasonable option for a coincident driver or for a coax. For separate components, it is completely without merit.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Dude, reread my sentence. You're comprehension of the word "others" is suspect here.


Dude, learn to write in standard American English.

First, I am not "comprehension," God damnit. Writing correctly actually takes _fewer keystrokes_ than ****ing it up. Almost _half_ the ****ing keystrokes, in fact. (Seven including the shift to look like a bloody moron, versus 4 to write like a civilized human being.) So why don't people just ****ing write "your" when they mean "your."

Second, here's what you wrote: "I was simply going off of others comments." Of course, you botched the sentence. A person of reasonable intelligence and English proficiency would surmise that you meant "others'," however, in which case my interpretation stands correct as written. QE-****ing-D. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I've noted it, i'd still choose "most" as the word i'd use being that I beleive "most" is the case.


Your perception is quite skewed, but more interestingly your ego far outstrips your capabilities. Most, is of course defined as "50%+1." Ergo, you are purporting to speak for 50%+1 of the denizens of this forum. There were over 1500 people active here in the last 4 hours, apparently. How many of those did you consult before purporting to be their spokesperson?



WRX/Z28 said:


> Race, sports, performance, muscle: minor distinctions between similar themes.


If you say so. You're wrong, but whatever.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I think they're ugly as sin.


Frankly, I expected you to have neither the taste nor the class to appreciate them. I hate it when low expectations are met, and just barely at that.



WRX/Z28 said:


> The fact that they are replica's indicates that they most likely are cast wheels (cast wheels are generally not strong or light, just cheap to manufacture).


Frankly, I did not expect you to have the taste to recognize the name Panasport, or the perspective to know what Minilite was. I hate it when low expectations are met, and just barely at that.

I hate it when low expectations are met, and just barely at that.Personal experience says that speakers can sound incredibly different from one car to the next, and dependant on the installation, baffle, sound deadening involved as well. You disagree?[/quote]

I disagree, in that a reasonably competent person can take a look at things and anticipate most if not all of those differences, and mentally filter them out.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Ooops, old technology there buddy. They must suck!


Actually, they're still quite a bit more advanced than anything on the car-fi market right now. (The JBL GTi sets would likely be better if the tweeter were coincident rather than ahead of the woofer cone.) Unfortunate that may be, but KEF holds the important patents on coincident drivers with tweeters mounted above the polepiece. Moreover, their designer, Andrew Jones, has gone on to design the coincident driver in the TAD Model-1.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Somehow you brought up 3500lb cars in the same paragraph with STi. So either you were straying off the topic, or you are a moron. Which is it?


Sigh. It's kind of like you're a Pop Warner guard and I'm Albert Haynesworth. I should really stop beating up on you.


----------



## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

to the OP:



> All this talk about science and numbers is making me dizzy.


Without understanding some of the numbers you will not get a good install. How difficult is this to comprehend?
We are not talking "chuck a set of 6x9s into a parcel tray and hope", if you have planned the install, then you should at the very least understand WHY your drivers will sound good in the places you intend to put them. If you don't give a toss, why spend $$$ on drivers? 20% equipment, 80% install.



> I just won't let someone crap on me without doing anything about it.


Why not? You took it personally. Your loss.

Bret


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

The ownage is strong in this thread.

Anyone want an icecream sandwich?


----------



## BTA (Nov 5, 2005)

You know I finally read the thread on the other forum....I don't see the big deal

It's the friggin internet....


----------



## kh971 (Oct 20, 2008)

Good lord!!! I finally read all of it.

I will say this...I like the Hybrid speakers, I even purchased a 841LV2 set to go in my 03 Dodge Ram. I bought the speakers, because I have heard them in Dave Brooks truck, they sounded great, easy to install (IB) , small tweeters, local company for me, Scott answered all my questions, price was reasonable.
Everything is taken into account into a purchase.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> the point was that "expensive" is all relevant to the person, and not for one person (not even Chad) to say.





chad said:


> No, I have bitterness for people who spend more money than they really need to to achieve a goal then preach about it in monetary terms. I too spend money on things I enjoy, probably too much, *but hey, I guess the difference is value based and that "value" is most certainly a lifestyle and moralistic based equation.*



What thefuckman? 

You are so defensive that you plainly can't see the threshold where someone agrees with you!


----------



## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

So you guys had to go to other threads and pull up where I said I had won world championships. I never mentioned in this thread whether or not I was a world champion. I said that list had 10 world championships. 

Do you see that in my signature? nope. I plainly said in this thread that winning didn't mean anything with how a speaker sounds----but of course that doesn't help out what you are trying to point out---so lets just skip right over that. One of those threads at least was about USACi finals----**** me for mentioning that I won a show in a thread about that show. How ****ing arrogant of me.

Other than Andy W, there is a reason this forum has turned into what it is. Look in the mirror people---arrogance is you.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> I plainly said in this thread that winning didn't mean anything with how a speaker sounds.


So you would run a speaker with a completely jacked timbre just to win a competition?


----------



## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

I vote DIYMA worst thread this year. 

I hope there is a thread lock coming soon, as there cannot possibly be value to be had out of this thread staying open. It wasn't even good to begin with, just some guy getting butthurt because someone didn't like his L8s.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

every family needs a good pissing match, it brings them closer


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Foglght said:


> I vote DIYMA worst thread this year.
> 
> I hope there is a thread lock coming soon, as there cannot possibly be value to be had out of this thread staying open. It wasn't even good to begin with, just some guy getting butthurt because someone didn't like his L8s.


Don't like, don't click. 

Hell it's only on page 10, it's got at least another 10 left. RC amp challenge hasn't even been mentioned yet and MVM is still civil. Plus Rudeboy hasn't even made sense of it all yet. Sheesh, ****'s in it's infancy.

:lurk:


----------



## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I hate everyone. My way is the best way, I know what the best drivers are, I have a couple comp. vehicles, I like steak cooked med/rare, love tater tots and I daily drive a Focus that gets great gas mileage BTW. I really want a larger LCD though at the house. Chad you suck.J/K I feel closer already.LOL

What a great pissing match we have here. Keeping my day full of great stuff to read. Enjoying the Drama, its days of our lives DIYMA style.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Genxx said:


> I hate everyone. My way is the best way, I know what the best drivers are, I have a couple comp. vehicles, I like steak cooked med/rare, love tater tots and I daily drive a Focus that gets great gas mileage BTW. I really want a larger LCD though at the house. Chad you suck.J/K I feel closer already.LOL
> 
> What a great pissing match we have here. Keeping my day full of great stuff to read. Enjoying the Drama, its days of our lives DIYMA style.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:
What flavor of icecream sammich you want Brian?
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I too enjoy a fine tater tot, but prefer my steak medium.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

What? 

There's a forum argument and I'm not in the middle of it? :surprised: What do I have to say to get in on this one? I need to read this thread some more now. Maybe I can join in...


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

/\/\ haha thats funny!

All you have to do is take offense to AJ's ego... 

And I'll take the standard classic ice cream sandwich please. 

Seriously though this thread is absolutely pointless at this point and was from the start...


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> What?
> 
> There's a forum argument and I'm not in the middle of it? :surprised: What do I have to say to get in on this one? I need to read this thread some more now. Maybe I can join in...


Shut the hell up tspence.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Dude, learn to write in standard American English
> 
> First, I am not "comprehension," God damnit. Writing correctly actually takes _fewer keystrokes_ than ****ing it up. Almost _half_ the ****ing keystrokes, in fact. (Seven including the shift to look like a bloody moron, versus 4 to write like a civilized human being.) So why don't people just ****ing write "your" when they mean "your."


Oh boy! You got me there guy. I mistyped "your" once. If you'd like, i'll go back and proofread all your posts, but I'm sure you're perfect with the grammar.  My standard english isn't all that bad in my opinion. 



DS-21 said:


> Second, here's what you wrote: "I was simply going off of others comments." Of course, you botched the sentence. A person of reasonable intelligence and English proficiency would surmise that you meant "others'," however, in which case my interpretation stands correct as written. QE-****ing-D.


WTF? Here, let me put it another way so you can understand. 

I was simply forming my oppinion based on the comments of others. 

Your comprehension of the word others is still suspect, since you missed the boat entirely and assumed it was simply my opinion. 



DS-21 said:


> Your perception is quite skewed, but more interestingly your ego far outstrips your capabilities. Most, is of course defined as "50%+1." Ergo, you are purporting to speak for 50%+1 of the denizens of this forum. There were over 1500 people active here in the last 4 hours, apparently. How many of those did you consult before purporting to be their spokesperson?


Call it an educated guess. I'm sure if I consulted 50%+1 of the population of a DIY forum, they would state that they enjoy DIY to some degree. Sorry I don't have that much time. I'll stick to my original guestimate. 



DS-21 said:


> If you say so. You're wrong, but whatever.


Great comeback. "You're wrong, but whatever." really put me in my place on that one. 

From Websters:

1. sports car  
–noun a small, high-powered automobile with long, low lines, usually seating two persons. 

2. race car 
-noun 
a fast car that competes in races 

3. muscle car  
–noun a flashy sports car with a large, powerful engine; a hot rod. 




DS-21 said:


> Frankly, I expected you to have neither the taste nor the class to appreciate them. I hate it when low expectations are met, and just barely at that.


If taste and class requires me to like ugly cast wheels, i'll stick with my lack of taste and class. FTW!!! 

Luckily taste is subjective, and sir, you've never had an ounce of class. You're an absolute douchebag in every post i've seen you make. 



DS-21 said:


> Frankly, I did not expect you to have the taste to recognize the name Panasport, or the perspective to know what Minilite was. I hate it when low expectations are met, and just barely at that.


Listen, i'd barely heard of them. You got me there. They're still ugly as sin. My lack of awareness of the brand, name, and heritage doesn't change that fact. Ugly is ugly. Out of curiousity, can you tell me what's in the picture at the top of this minilite page? Minilite

You meet my expectations every time you post a reply. I expect some more pompous ramblings, a few cheap jabs, and a false sense of superiority from you. You deliver every time. Thanks!



DS-21 said:


> I hate it when low expectations are met, and just barely at that.Personal experience says that speakers can sound incredibly different from one car to the next, and dependant on the installation, baffle, sound deadening involved as well. You disagree?


[/QUOTE]

You're repeating yourself there. It's ok, calm down, no need to get flustered. I'm just some guy on a forum who thinks you are a douche. I'm sure there are many more people who think you're a douche in real life to get flustered over. lol



DS-21 said:


> I disagree, in that a reasonably competent person can take a look at things and anticipate most if not all of those differences, and mentally filter them out.


Clever question avoidance. They sound different, filter out what you will, but if you can filter that out, why not just leave your stock speakers in your car, and filter out those differences. It should sound great to you at that point. 





DS-21 said:


> Actually, they're still quite a bit more advanced than anything on the car-fi market right now. (The JBL GTi sets would likely be better if the tweeter were coincident rather than ahead of the woofer cone.) Unfortunate that may be, but KEF holds the important patents on coincident drivers with tweeters mounted above the polepiece. Moreover, their designer, Andrew Jones, has gone on to design the coincident driver in the TAD Model-1.


But they're 15 years old, and you've stated time and time again that old designs are garbage. Funny how your speakers are exempt from the criteria you use to judge other speakers. 




DS-21 said:


> Sigh. It's kind of like you're a Pop Warner guard and I'm Albert Haynesworth. I should really stop beating up on you.


Eh, it's more like you're the pompous douche, and i'm the average joe (ok, maybe a little above average) that identifys it, and can't stand it. Keep "beating up" on me, if that's really what you think you're doing, you arrogant prick. lol


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> Shut the hell up tspence.


No, you shut up Donovan! This thread is messed up and that's my specialty. You're in my world now.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Other than Andy W, there is a reason this forum has turned into what it is. Look in the mirror people---arrogance is you.


Then why are you here?

[I think I asked that earlier too...]


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> No, you shut up Donovan! This thread is messed up and that's my specialty. You're in my world now.


Only my friends call me Donovan. Don't.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> Only my friends call me Donovan. Don't.


Whatcha gonna do about it fool?


----------



## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> Don't like, don't click.
> 
> Hell it's only on page 10, it's got at least another 10 left. RC amp challenge hasn't even been mentioned yet and MVM is still civil. Plus Rudeboy hasn't even made sense of it all yet. Sheesh, ****'s in it's infancy.
> 
> :lurk:


This doesn't even resemble the original arguement. Nobody can search and get anything out of this, so why let it continue? We just had noobs complaining that they search for stuff and find 20 page threads that say nothing. This is a prime example. Nothing of value in this thread except posturing and people getting butthurt. 

You, of all people. The one who starts his own "members only" forum because he didn't like the way DIYMA was going. Now ur saying its ok because ur buddies are team raping someone else. 

Seriously?


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Whatcha gonna do about it fool?


Dear tspence73,

You have neither the knowledge nor the appropriate perspective to qualify to participate in this thread, this forum, or your life in any meaningful way.

Sincerely,
You're ****ing useless.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> Dear tspence73,
> 
> You have neither the knowledge nor the appropriate perspective to qualify to participate in this thread, this forum, or your life in any meaningful way.
> 
> ...


Whatever. Just don't respond then. I don't go out of my way to call you 'useless' but you are. At least you are 'sincerely' ****ing useless.


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Whatever. Just don't respond then. I don't go out of my way to call you 'useless' but you are. At least you are 'sincerely' ****ing useless.


Your insolence requires me to respond. Bad men prevail because good men fail to act!


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> Your insolence requires me to respond. Bad men prevail because good men fail to act!


I'm not bad. I'm just insolent to you. So, just buzz off.


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> I'm not bad. I'm just insolent to you. So, just buzz off.


Yes you are. You're insolent to every sensible person on this forum. Why do you think so many people have you on ignore? Why do you think I'm the only one who's been around for any amount of time who will talk to you?

You are at the forefront of the hordes of ca.com dropouts who have shown something that was once beautiful - DIYMA - the meaning of rape and pillage. It's probably too late to save this site from you people, but hell if I'm not gonna try


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DonovanM said:


> Yes you are. You're insolent to every sensible person on this forum. Why do you think so many people have you on ignore? Why do you think I'm the only one who's been around for any amount of time who will talk to you?
> 
> You are at the forefront of the hordes of ca.com dropouts who have shown something that was once beautiful - DIYMA - the meaning of rape and pillage. It's probably too late to save this site from you people, but hell if I'm not gonna try


Hey, did you lift that from Rambo?


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> Hey, did you lift that from Rambo?


Don't listen to him. He's rambling about nothing and admits himself that he is useless. Enough said.


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Hey, did you lift that from Rambo?


Substitute DIYMA for Burma... or wherever?

No, not that I know of


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Don't listen to him. He's rambling about nothing and admits himself that he is useless. Enough said.


Where did I say this?

Sure, I've been primarily a reader on DIYMA rather than a poster, but if my use is to at least annoy the hell out of retards like you, job done!


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

oh look tspence is here


----------



## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

For those reading, you have to understand that we've been hearing about Andy Jones winning for what feels like 5 years now, and it's gotten worse since he started winning with Hybrid Audio stuff.

Keep in mind that many of us already KNOW that Andy has won quite a bit in SQ competitions (and he is publicly, and privately, acknowledged by many as a quality installer); I just don't find the need to bring it up because it means absolutely nothing in the context of any of these arguments.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

See Donovan? Captextreme knows how it's done. If you're going to give someone a hard time, at least make it entertaining. Geez!


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> See Donovan? Captextreme knows how it's done. If you're going to give someone a hard time, at least make it entertaining. Geez!


I'm entertaining to everyone but you, for obvious reasons 

Now GTFO.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> I'm entertaining to everyone but you, for obvious reasons
> 
> Now GTFO.


I'm not responding to you anymore until you come up with some better comebacks.


----------



## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> I'm not responding to you anymore until you come up with some better comebacks.


Comebacks? What are we doing, arguing? Are we having a debate?

There's no debate here. You're a retard and should leave this forum forever, go start your own site ala peter euro or something.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> But they're 15 years old, and you've stated time and time again that old designs are garbage. Funny how your speakers are exempt from the criteria you use to judge other speakers.


The rest of your post is just mindless idiocy unworthy of further comment, but there is a useful distinction to be teased out in reply to the above.

There is, you see, a crucial distinction between "old" and "antequated." Old simply refers to age, whereas "antequated" is a value judgment.

A 15 year-old driver may be "old," but if it was at the cutting edge of its day, and there have been few advances in that particular area except trickle-down of technology from flagship/statement parts to less expensive parts, antequated is not an appropriate term. Unless you can point me to a newer coincident driver with a cone profile designed to serve as a waveguide and as much attention paid to getting the "throat" right as the KEF Uni-Q.

The thing is, the stuff I expect in drive unit is not radical new technology. JBL started using Faraday rings in the 1970s, after all.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ArcL100 said:


>


Don't paper cones have more distortion than just about any other type of material used? Just curious. Like, why wasn't poly used at least? Something light, rigid and responsive? Virtually all major manufacturers use some other kind of cone material, even treated paper. What's up with $500 paper cone drivers?


----------



## bigabe (May 1, 2007)

Some serious professionalism being shown by HAT representatives in here. I bet Scott B is really proud.

Jesus guys. Mr. Jones should take flame culling lessons from Eric Stevens.


----------



## bigabe (May 1, 2007)

autodupe is on a roll today...


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> The rest of your post is just mindless idiocy unworthy of further comment, but there is a useful distinction to be teased out in reply to the above.
> 
> There is, you see, a crucial distinction between "old" and "antequated." Old simply refers to age, whereas "antequated" is a value judgment.
> 
> ...


Mindless idiocy huh? Whatever you say there cheif. Again, just because you say it, doesn't make it so. 

I wasn't saying the Uni-Q was bad stuff, I used to sell them way back in the day. Loved the sound of their home towers. So again you misunderstood me. I was simply pointing out that for a guy bent on XBL^2 and newer technology being the end all be all to speakers design, it's funny that you run a 15 year old set of speakers that some might judge as "antequated". 

At any rate, you're still a pompous douche.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> WoW, guess I need some popcorn...


Me too....have to save this one for tonight when I have time to unwind.

Hopefully it won't be up to 22 pages by then.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Someone's mad they can't be down with the frat.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Foglght said:


> Now ur saying its ok because ur buddies are team raping someone else.


It'll probably get locked around page 20. WRX and DS-21 still have some energy it seems. The introduction of tspence into this thread will surely lower it to a level that only whale **** could appreciate. 

Like I said though, this is a fight between two "good ole boy" clubs. Andy's club just doesn't really fit in at DIYMA. This has always been the anti-ECA. Though there was really good information over there, it eventually died because **** like this would happen and their good ole boy club refused to let anybody new enter that didn't have any competitions under their belt. 

The same thing happened here when thehatedguy and theotherhatedguy joined DIYMA. They didn't get their egos stroked like they used to on ECA. So, they got real pissy. Eventually they took their toys and went home. Though they may still hang around a bit. 

ECA is now dead and these people are trying to find new homes. DIYMA ain't it if they come here with attitude. No matter how much experience and information they possess. Because it causes **** like this. Hopefully this thread will actually provide a good grounding for DIYMA members and they can see that we really don't put up with egos, no matter who you are.

Some of the broad, general comments by AJ were rather insulting. I was laughing though. I know who I am. Chad knows who he is, and several others here who, while they don't compete in car audio, REALLY know their **** in the audio spectrum. 

There's a great line in "Bring It On". 



> I am a choreographer. That's what I do. You are cheerleaders. Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded. What you do is a tiny, pathetic subset of dancing.


Substitute "dancing" with "audio", and "cheerleader" with "car audio" (ignoring the horrible grammatical errors that ensue ), and there you have it. People that have been in trenches making a real living off of audio and audio production being called out by a hobbyist that only exists in a tiny subset of the audio realm.



FoxPro5 said:


> Hell it's only on page 10, it's got at least another 10 left. RC amp challenge hasn't even been mentioned yet and MVM is still civil. Plus Rudeboy hasn't even made sense of it all yet. Sheesh, ****'s in it's infancy.
> 
> :lurk:


Is that still being civil?


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> It'll probably get locked around page 20. WRX and DS-21 still have some energy it seems. The introduction of tspence into this thread will surely lower it to a level that only whale **** could appreciate.
> 
> Like I said though, this is a fight between two "good ole boy" clubs. Andy's club just doesn't really fit in at DIYMA. This has always been the anti-ECA. Though there was really good information over there, it eventually died because **** like this would happen and their good ole boy club refused to let anybody new enter that didn't have any competitions under their belt.
> 
> ...


Minivanman...you have so eloquently said what I have not been able to gurgitate from my mind. I laughed at AJ's comment, then for whatever reason...got really pissed off that a "cheerleader" was saying that..this has been a good experience for me..a maturing, grounding experience.


----------



## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

I really enjoy this place.. I do find it ironic that there are people on a "Do it yourself" board that choose to be arrogant and condescending. Isnt the point of this place to ask questions and seek help? Who set the bar on the level of questions that should be asked here? Is the bar raised just high enough that you fit under it? Do you need a PHD and 10 years of applied theory to join in the discussion? Its one step from being the teacher to the student…One minute you may think you know something and the next you may be learning something…When you start the learning process how would you like to be treated?

In the end I truly believe forums like this should have an experts only section where only experts hang out...That way if you dont like the simple questions you dont have to take the extra step in ignoring the post and moving on to something that is “worthy” of your time...Knowledge is like gold and those that hand out gold are loved forever...Insults are like a shiat sandwich and those that hand it out are hated forever...Which will you be remembered for?


----------



## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

you missed the point.

There's learning and there's "I want to be spoonfed". They are two different attitudes. You don't need a PhD, but you sure as hell need to understand some basic math and be able to read. 
Disagree on the "hand out gold" big time. Not these days; the ungrateful ****s expect to be told everything and it should be free - better still, they should be paid for it.
No, I won't tell you everything I know, because - and this is key - there's no point. You won't understand until you've tried your own fabrication or installation or soldering or dremeling or milling or whatever. And theory doesn't always help - witness the love for tspence - go build it, model it, and ask intelligent questions and you're far more likely to get an intelligent answer. 

Bret


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## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

bretti_kivi said:


> you missed the point.
> 
> There's learning and there's "I want to be spoonfed". They are two different attitudes. You don't need a PhD, but you sure as hell need to understand some basic math and be able to read.
> Disagree on the "hand out gold" big time. Not these days; the ungrateful ****s expect to be told everything and it should be free - better still, they should be paid for it.
> ...



Maybe I did miss the point but maybe I didnt....I do agree that spoon feeding is rediculous. I got blasted the other day for a simple question I asked about amplifier power and leveling. I took the time to research on the web, pull up the driver specifications, argue with my friends about it, installed the drivers and amps in my car, tuned by ear and used an RTA..Guess what after all that I got blasted for asking a "stupid" question! Out of the responses I got about 5 of them were informative and actually added to my knowledge bank...Im sure to some my question was "stupid" but what else are you to do when you have read all you can find, installed and RTAed...Just not ask the question and remain without the information? I find a common pattern regarding information with my life. There are those that learn and then give back and then there are those that learn and make the knowledge their "rice bowl" and call everyone else idiots...I "do" routers, switches and firewalls at my work. I've been doing them for 15 years and passing along my knowledge for free. I've watched this cycle over and over again..Some of my students pay my efforts forward while others become cocky and arrogant..I typically find the ones that wont pass the information forward have VERY poor self esteems. The knoweldge makes them instead of the other way around..


----------



## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

ok, so twelve pages in three days....Can someone post an executive summary while I go make myself some more popcorn? Please!!!


----------



## tbonez3858 (Jun 17, 2008)

slvrtsunami said:


> ok, so twelve pages in three days....Can someone post an executive summary while I go make myself some more popcorn? Please!!!


HAT drivers are the best..


----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

slvrtsunami said:


> ok, so twelve pages in three days....Can someone post an executive summary while I go make myself some more popcorn? Please!!!


"Some dude on NASIOC hates the L8's and trashed my thread "

"L8's rock and look nothing like that cheap ass speaker from madisound!"

"No, L8's suck!"

"L8's rock and I've used them to win x competion 8 times as well as y competition 4 times!"

"Yeah L8's rock!"

"No you all don't know **** about music the L8's are great if you like distortion!"

"No you suck you can't even type correctly"

"I also used L8's to win z competition 21 times just in case you didn't know that I compete and love the L8's"

"No you..."

Ad nauseum.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

tbonez3858 said:


> HAT drivers are the best..


They're the best to the people using them and nothing more. I don't like HAT mids but LOVE their tweeters. I LOVE the sound of Focal mids but don't like their tweeters. See a possible match for a future setup here?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

slvrtsunami said:


> ok, so twelve pages in three days....Can someone post an executive summary while I go make myself some more popcorn? Please!!!


Poor cat started a thread relating to his new install on the subie forum, one guy does not like HAT, I never got to read that original post but it pointed to a similar LOOKING madisound driver. Well, that started a ****storm that came over here that blossomed into a **** monsoon on a steep hill. When in reality the poor guy was just posting his damn install that he was stoked to get started and was upset and made a comment here not knowing it would turn into this.

A) it could have stayed there and died off quick
B) instead it came here it won't die off for a few more days
c) in the end everyone will get in a big pile and **** -Minitruckfreq

It's good for a forum to have a good one every now and then.


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## bigabe (May 1, 2007)

Dey tuk err jaabs!!!!


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## SQfreak (Feb 13, 2007)

this thread = fail


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

one for AWC. now I gotta find some mall ninjas....


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

Thank you all for the summaries.... you all saved me a lot time reading. Now I can enjoy my popcorn while trying to tune my car that has drivers X,Y and Z with amps A and processors B.....




In other words I wont waste my time!!!


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

This thread needs more cat.


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> They're the best to the people using them and nothing more. I don't like HAT mids but LOVE their tweeters. I LOVE the sound of Focal mids but don't like their tweeters. See a possible match for a future setup here?


Is it too late for some ice cream? do you have strawbrary? 

This thread is rather entertaining because when you fight fire with fire you have more fire. Stalemate.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

tbonez3858 said:


> Maybe I did miss the point but maybe I didnt....I do agree that spoon feeding is rediculous. I got blasted the other day for a simple question I asked about amplifier power and leveling. I took the time to research on the web, pull up the driver specifications, argue with my friends about it, installed the drivers and amps in my car, tuned by ear and used an RTA..Guess what after all that I got blasted for asking a "stupid" question! Out of the responses I got about 5 of them were informative and actually added to my knowledge bank...Im sure to some my question was "stupid" but what else are you to do when you have read all you can find, installed and RTAed...Just not ask the question and remain without the information? I find a common pattern regarding information with my life. There are those that learn and then give back and then there are those that learn and make the knowledge their "rice bowl" and call everyone else idiots...I "do" routers, switches and firewalls at my work. I've been doing them for 15 years and passing along my knowledge for free. I've watched this cycle over and over again..Some of my students pay my efforts forward while others become cocky and arrogant..I typically find the ones that wont pass the information forward have VERY poor self esteems. The knoweldge makes them instead of the other way around..


You just let me know who it was and I'll sit them down and give them a good talking to.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

slvrtsunami said:


> ok, so twelve pages in three days....Can someone post an executive summary while I go make myself some more popcorn? Please!!!


"I understand everyone's ****'s emotional right now..."

...sums it up.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

ArcL100 said:


> This thread needs more cat.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

ArcL100 said:


> This thread needs more cat.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

For some reason my funny cat pictures turned into dogs.

These pictures are hilarious

why argue about speakers when there are cat pictures?


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

all I know is that, apparently, Subaru drivers are terrible with words and even worse with lining them up in the right order with the right...'s and ''s. That's why specs are SO hard to read over there where them ricers hang out...awe ****! I drive a ricer now


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

AWC said:


> all I know is that, apparently, Subaru drivers are terrible with words and even worse with lining them up in the right order with the right...'s and ''s. That's why specs are SO hard to read over there where them ricers hang out...awe ****! I drive a ricer now


Did you buy the Celica?


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> Did you buy the Celica?


He got a Camry 

And...


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't know about anyone else, but my speakers sound good. Does anyone else like their speakers?


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but my speakers sound good. Does anyone else like their speakers?


Shut the hell up tspence.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Aww damnit tspence...ooooy


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> Shut the hell up tspence.


Uh oh. Someone's jealous. :surprised:


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Uh oh. Someone's jealous. :surprised:


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


>


As I suspected. You are unhappy with your car system and don't enjoy yourself. You can ride shotgun in my car where you can experience fun and singing and dancing and kickbutt sound. Then you won't be so down. :laugh:


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

That would be a gay ass car ride....


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> That would be a gay ass car ride....


Jealousy abounds. :surprised:


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> As I suspected. You are unhappy with your car system and don't enjoy yourself. You can ride shotgun in my car where you can experience fun and singing and dancing and kickbutt sound. Then you won't be so down. :laugh:


You've tuned for 2-seat?


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> You've tuned for 2-seat?


I don't have time alignment yet, and from what I can tell each seat in the front sounds pretty much the same. Heck, the rear seats sound better than I thought they would and had no intention of those sounding decent. I have decent stereo imaging but not quite what I want yet. I'm hoping for the miracle MS-8 magic box.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> As I suspected. You are unhappy with your car system and don't enjoy yourself. You can ride shotgun in my car where you can experience fun and singing and dancing and kickbutt sound. Then you won't be so down. :laugh:


As of last month I had a stock system, which I was completely happy with, just wanted to make it better. All I have in my car right now is a mid and tweeter mounted on a sweatshirt in my passenger side kick panel. Of course I'm unhappy with it, it's not even finished! :laugh:

As for your invitation to ride in your car (and your sub-invitation to ride your **** afterwards it sounds like  )... no thanks. I will never listen to your car. Why? Because I've heard the speakers you're running and frankly they're not that great despite what you may think. You can get much better, even for cheaper.

If you enjoy your system, great, go enjoy it more - but don't post in this goddamn forum, you don't belong nor do you fit in.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> I don't have time alignment yet, and from what I can tell each seat in the front sounds pretty much the same. Heck, the rear seats sound better than I thought they would and had no intention of those sounding decent. I have decent stereo imaging but not quite what I want yet. I'm hoping for the miracle MS-8 magic box.


You'll need more than an MS-8 Magic box to fix your ears...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

DonovanM said:


> Because I've heard the speakers you're running and frankly they're not that great despite what you may think. You can get much better, even for cheaper.
> 
> If you enjoy your system, great, go enjoy it more - but don't post in this goddamn forum, you don't belong nor do you fit in.





















It finally came full circle


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> I have decent stereo imaging but not quite what I want yet.


So, you don’t have good imaging, yet you have a good 2 seat car? Your car is so dialed that from the passenger seat it’s better than his car, which you’ve never heard?
Might want to slow down a bit before you get all big-headed about how great your car is. You’ve admitted you don’t have good imaging and that’s ½ the battle.

If you want to include yourself in the ‘my system is better than yours’ BS that plagues the forums, feel free. But just be careful of how much you tell on yourself.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

ArcL100 said:


>


Holy crap! Look at the size of that woman. She's tiny!


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Holy crap! Look at the size of that woman. She's tiny!


Either she's tiny or it's just a small tiger.


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

ArcL100 said:


>


HOLY SHI~AT!!!


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ArcL100 said:


> Either she's tiny or it's just a small tiger.


Maine ****, big ass cats


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Well, since everyone else (apparently) has an opinion on HAT L8's, I guess i'll chime in w/my own.

I actually have listened to the L8"s. They're installed in my doors and complimented by a pair of L1Pro's in the kickpanels. The HAT's are the best sounding drivers that I have audtioned in my truck. Go ahead and call me a HAT fanboy.....I'll embrace that moniker.

So what else have I tried in my truck? JL XR650CSi, Focal K2P, Dayton RS180, Seas Neo fabric, ID OEM 6.5's from Hessdawg, ID Minihorns w/Celestion drivers, MB Quart Reference 6.5 components from approx. 1993. Definitely not "everything under the sun" (shameless Sublime plug, ), but a pretty good number of other options were tried.

The L8/L1Pro (L81-2Pro set) combo blows everything else I've tried away, in my truck.

Oh and before anyone says "with THAT MUCH invested, you better like them".....I spent $220 for the pair of L8's and $154 (after 30% cashback from live.com, and yes I already got my cashback back in January)for the L1Pro's. So, yes $374 for the entire set is a lot (the most I've ever spent on components), but it also kicks the shyte outta everything else i've tried. BTW, these were both purchased from DIYMA Classifieds.

I don't mind when people bag on the brands I like (i.e. I also run JL amps and sub) cause that means better used prices to be had for me. Honestly, everything currently in my truck was purchased used except for my 880PRS and wiring.

So I like to think my *REAL* moniker should be "Stealth SQL.....on the Cheap!"


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

metanium said:


> Well, since everyone else (apparently) has an opinion on HAT L8's, I guess i'll chime in w/my own.


What the hell does this have to do with cats? Stay on topic, dude.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> What the hell does this have to do with cats? Stay on topic, dude.


Haha. ****. :toff:


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Cats!? **** I thought this was about HAT's......Oh well, Eff me! I = big failure! My parents SO regret not going w/abortion!


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> What the hell does this have to do with cats? Stay on topic, dude.


Emergency resuscitation!


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

bwahaha


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> What the hell does this have to do with cats? Stay on topic, dude.


Thats hilarious.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Ligers are hybrid cats.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

ArcL100 said:


>



That ***** has one big *****!


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> Ligers are hybrid cats.


it's pretty much my favorite animal


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

what? get tired of the speaker chat so you wanted to check out each other's funny pussies? by the way, they don't taste like chicken...I dunno where that rumor came from.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

benny said:


>


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

nevermind


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

metanium said:


> Well, since everyone else (apparently) has an opinion on HAT L8's, I guess i'll chime in w/my own.
> 
> I actually have listened to the L8"s. They're installed in my doors and complimented by a pair of L1Pro's in the kickpanels. The HAT's are the best sounding drivers that I have audtioned in my truck. Go ahead and call me a HAT fanboy.....I'll embrace that moniker.
> 
> ...


I want to deem this post as the way to state that you like something without coming off as a know it all ass. Well written, concise, and to the point... the review trifecta.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> I want to deem this post as the way to state that you like something without coming off as a know it all ass. Well written, concise, and to the point... the review trifecta.


I concur, well done. BUT, there is no serious business in this thread (not since I've gotten here), SO:


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

My apologies... continue


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

chad said:


> Maine ****, big ass cats


Maine **** that bred with a ****ing Bobcat maybe.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

:laugh: Up ^^^


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

Boo! There was more namecalling to be done... I call premature cat flood.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

dkm201 said:


> Boo! There was more namecalling to be done... I call premature cat flood.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

I want a chocolate ice cream sandwich btw.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Foglght said:


> You, of all people. The one who starts his own "members only" forum because he didn't like the way DIYMA was going. Now ur saying its ok because ur buddies are team raping someone else.
> 
> Seriously?


I'd explain it to you and set you straight, but I'm too busy egging on my "buddies." So blow me you little puke. 

Now, who's got some more arguin'? I want more MarkZ!!  Tspence, SHUT the hell up!  Lol....


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> Now, who's got some more arguin'? I want more MarkZ!!  Tspence, SHUT the hell up!  Lol....


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I will have some ice cream now. I will take a fudge sunday thanks.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)




----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

I think this forum has gone way to commercial! Who cares what another thinks, if you like it then that's all that should matter!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Ultimateherts said:


> I think this forum has gone way to commercial! Who cares what another thinks, if you like it then that's all that should matter!




Main Entry:
1com·mer·cial Listen to the pronunciation of 1commercial
Pronunciation:
\kə-ˈmər-shəl\ 
Function:
adjective 
Date:
1598

1 a (1): occupied with or engaged in commerce or work intended for commerce <a commercial artist> (2): of or relating to commerce <commercial regulations> (3): characteristic of commerce <commercial weights> (4): suitable, adequate, or prepared for commerce <found oil in commercial quantities> b (1): being of an average or inferior quality <commercial oxalic acid> <show-quality versus commercial cattle> (2): producing artistic work of low standards for quick market success2 a: viewed with regard to profit <a commercial success> b: designed for a large market3: emphasizing skills and subjects useful in business <a commercial school>4: supported by advertisers <commercial TV>
— com·mer·ci·al·i·ty Listen to the pronunciation of commerciality \kə-ˌmər-shē-ˈa-lə-tē\ noun
— com·mer·cial·ly Listen to the pronunciation of commercially \-ˈmər-sh(ə-)lē\ adverb


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Genxx said:


> I will have some ice cream now. I will take a fudge sunday thanks.


What you do in the privacy of your own bedroom is nobody's business.

Edit: "Sup" cat wins hands down.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

AWC said:


> all I know is that, apparently, Subaru drivers are terrible with words and even worse with lining them up in the right order with the right...'s and ''s. That's why specs are SO hard to read over there where them ricers hang out...awe ****! I drive a ricer now



I are?


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




----------



## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

chad said:


>


/thread.

Top Gear >>>>>>>> *


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow, 15 pages of that........Ok, here's my .02

I don't think Andy Jones was being arrogant at all. If anyone thinks $500 for a set of speakers is high......get a clue. These are the same guys that will spend $200 three times trying to find a set of speakers they think sound as good.

He is the one spending HIS money to buy, test, and install speakers......not to mention taking time out to actually participate in this hobby. Personally I think you ought to be thankful when someone takes their time and money to give insight into what many of us couldn't afford to do. 

I do care that he's won championships in several organizations. It tells me he knows what the hell he is talking about. If I ever decide to build a comp car, his will be advice I listen to, not some 16 year old whiz kid who can prove to me a tang band 5 inch midbass levels out on a graph to the point it's the best mid ever. Shut up, and show some damn respect to someone who's actually done something in this hobby other than report how they think the newest internet 12 inch sub sounds better than their buddy's Morel even though it's being run IB in their Tercel until they get paid next Friday and can afford MDF instead of drywall. 

Back to your cat pics.............


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




----------



## bigabe (May 1, 2007)




----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

rockytophigh said:


> I do care that he's won championships in several organizations. It tells me he knows what the hell he is talking about.


It tells me he knows how to build a car that can win a competition. It doesn't tell me he knows a damned thing about audio. Or the goals that you or that I have set out to achieve.

I happen to think he knows about audio. Because he has trophies? No. Because he's demonstrated that he knows about audio by talking intelligently about audio. But I think there are a couple people on this forum who have a far better understanding about audio than he does, even though they don't have trophies.

To put it more simply, trophies don't mean jack ****. Aside from demonstrating that you have an expertise in acquiring trophies. ****, this isn't bowling.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

rockytophigh said:


> I do care that he's won championships in several organizations. It tells me he knows what the hell he is talking about.












FWIW, I agree with Andy in this thread in a lot of respects. Gotta listen wit dem errs.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)




----------



## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> It tells me he knows how to build a car that can win a competition. It doesn't tell me he knows a damned thing about audio. Or the goals that you or that I have set out to achieve.
> 
> I happen to think he knows about audio. Because he has trophies? No. Because he's demonstrated that he knows about audio by talking intelligently about audio. But I think there are a couple people on this forum who have a far better understanding about audio than he does, even though they don't have trophies.
> 
> To put it more simply, trophies don't mean jack ****. Aside from demonstrating that you have an expertise in acquiring trophies. ****, this isn't bowling.


It's easy for one to sit on the sidelines and say trophies don't mean jack. I'm one too....I've never competed....but I think it's a far stretch to say you can win (or place well for that matter) in several different organizations and not know anything about audio. Sorry, man...that just doesn't compute for me. You HAVE to know something about audio to take it to the level Andy has. Is he the most knowledgable human on earth in car audio....no, I doubt you'll hear him say he is (I don't know him from Adam) but I know he's put more into this hobby than 99% of the people on this forum an achieved more than them too. 

I know there are several smart guys on here....I've seen werewolf post things so complicated my poor brain had trouble determining it was english.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

chad said:


>


This one wins.

Damn near breathed in a pretzel.

:laugh:


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

rockytophigh said:


> It's easy for one to sit on the sidelines and say trophies don't mean jack. I'm one too....I've never competed....but I think it's a far stretch to say you can win (or place well for that matter) in several different organizations and not know anything about audio. Sorry, man...that just doesn't compute for me. You HAVE to know something about audio to take it to the level Andy has. Is he the most knowledgable human on earth in car audio....no, I doubt you'll hear him say he is (I don't know him from Adam) but I know he's put more into this hobby than 99% of the people on this forum an achieved more than them too.


I think you're wrong. I'm pretty damned sure that you haven't been around here long enough to know what 99% of people on this forum have "put in", whatever the **** that means. Many of the regulars in this forum have been doing this **** for a long time. Many have also branched out beyond car audio, where there are many valuable lessons to be learned that can be applicable in the car as well but that nobody likes to think about (because thinking outside the box is poo-poo'd for some reason in most car audio circles...).



> I know there are several smart guys on here....I've seen werewolf post things so complicated my poor brain had trouble determining it was english.


And a pretty sizable percentage of people on this forum (a lot higher than 1%) knew exactly what werewolf was talking about without getting brain-fried.

By the way, how many trophies did werewolf have?


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

rockytophigh said:


> Wow, 15 pages of that........Ok, here's my .02
> 
> *I don't think Andy Jones was being arrogant at all*. If anyone thinks $500 for a set of speakers is high......get a clue. These are the same guys that will spend $200 three times trying to find a set of speakers they think sound as good.


Maybe it's quite possible that birds of a feather...... Or you did not read his comments, or even mine for that matter one value bases.



rockytophigh said:


> He is the one spending HIS money to buy, test, and install speakers......not to mention taking time out to actually participate in this hobby. Personally I think you ought to be thankful when someone takes their time and money to give insight into what many of us couldn't afford to do.


Whatthefuckman? have you ever read something here about him giving two ****s about anyone other than himself? I know that I personally have never read an informative post from him and thought "whel that's just a fanfuckingtastic idea!" Know why? because he does not post informative ****. He's in it for himself, he gathers information and tests but I'll be damned if we ever see a single result.....



rockytophigh said:


> I do care that he's won championships in several organizations. It tells me he knows what the hell he is talking about. If I ever decide to build a comp car, his will be advice I listen to, not some 16 year old whiz kid who can prove to me a tang band 5 inch midbass levels out on a graph to the point it's the best mid ever.


Point to some of his wisdom slick......



rockytophigh said:


> Shut up, and show some damn respect to someone who's actually done something in this hobby other than report how they think the newest internet 12 inch sub sounds better than their buddy's Morel even though it's being run IB in their Tercel until they get paid next Friday and can afford MDF instead of drywall.


No you shut up, and while you are at it sit down and hang on. (are you gathering that I don't care for your tone of type?) There are MANY people here that eat, breathe and sleep audio, they are true audio professionals and are naturals at it, there are just as many more in the electronics industry in one way or another, i.e. not tax attorneys. I would wager a bet at least some of these individuals have more talent in their pubic hair for electronics and audio than those you worship. And again, willing to give out useful information and go out of their way to help others. got it? good. Because your above comment made no ****ing sense.



rockytophigh said:


> Back to your cat pics.............


Right on.....


----------



## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

chad said:


> Maybe it's quite possible that birds of a feather...... Or you did not read his comments, or even mine for that matter one value bases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, dude, just wow. Actually you were one of the people on here that I've read many posts and gained some insight from. But since you wanna go internet ninja on me....let me clarify what I was saying since my ****ing tone wasn't up to your standards.

He did not come off as an arrogant ass *in my opinion* but got jumped on because he has money to spend on what he wants and doesn't have to use a $5 tweeter. 

Don't be a dick.......


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

I understand many of you don't like Andy Jones.....I just haven't seen his attitude as being all knowing....in fact, he's explained himself very plainly in each reply in my opinion. Hell, several of you guys are saying the same thing and you're still jumping his ass.

I don't have the desire to learn the technical side of car audio. I'm sorry I just don't. I AM NOT saying you have to have trophies to have an opinion or be as analytical as werewolf. My percentages were meant to be extreme and were just to confer a thought.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Just in case this is starting to get serious... again.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

Autiophile said:


> Then what the **** are you doing here?


To find out which components are the best :laugh: :mean:


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)




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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> Then what the **** are you doing here?


He's eatin ur foodz.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

OMFG! These cat pics are the BEST!!!!!!


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

DonovanM said:


> As of last month I had a stock system, which I was completely happy with, just wanted to make it better. All I have in my car right now is a mid and tweeter mounted on a sweatshirt in my passenger side kick panel. Of course I'm unhappy with it, it's not even finished! :laugh:
> 
> As for your invitation to ride in your car (and your sub-invitation to ride your **** afterwards it sounds like  )... no thanks. I will never listen to your car. Why? Because I've heard the speakers you're running and frankly they're not that great despite what you may think. You can get much better, even for cheaper.
> 
> If you enjoy your system, great, go enjoy it more - but don't post in this goddamn forum, you don't belong nor do you fit in.


Just quit on the **** stuff. It's grossing me out. :uhoh2:


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Just quit on the **** stuff. It's grossing me out. :uhoh2:


Shut the hell up tspence.

BTW, it's completely normal to have a "feminine body" and lips "only a plastic surgeon" could give a woman :laugh:


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> OMFG! These cat pics are the BEST!!!!!!


Oh no no no no, no... this ONE is the BEST!!!



chad said:


>


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

dude, the I'm stealing your wheels is hilarious. 

I need to send these to my folks. I know they'd get a good laugh out of them.


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Then what the **** are you doing here?


I'm reading product reviews, looking at great installs, viewing cat pictures currently...look, I just don't give a **** why a frequency trails off at a certain hertz......yadda, yadda, yadda. Some of us just want a kick ass install that sounds great and rocks ass, some of us want to learn how to install better, some of us want to find a solution to a problem in our systems. Actually with all the ******* prick responses in this thread, I'm not sure what anyone is doing here other than bitching.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)




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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

rockytophigh said:


> Wow, dude, just wow. Actually you were one of the people on here that I've read many posts and gained some insight from. But since you wanna go internet ninja on me....let me clarify what I was saying since my ****ing tone wasn't up to your standards.
> 
> He did not come off as an arrogant ass *in my opinion* but got jumped on because he has money to spend on what he wants and doesn't have to use a $5 tweeter.
> 
> Don't be a dick.......


I stated several times that a vale base is absolutely personal, but he read right past it on several occasions, that's arrogant, especially taking a stab at it much deeper into the conversation.

I can also say this, I have been here a fairly long time, I have always done my best to help others, even providing as much humor as possible, because that's how I roll, it's supposed to be fun right? But I can also say another thing, I will still be here for a long time to come, I will always be there to help people as my time permits, I will make mistakes as I have in the past, I will learn from said mistakes and I will continue the enjoyment from learning from others. And yes, occasionally I'll be a dick at times too, quite frankly we all are at times.

I thought that cat pic was funny as hell when I saw it, maybe it was the wrong place for it :surprised:



rockytophigh said:


> I understand many of you don't like Andy Jones.....I just haven't seen his attitude as being all knowing....



I've never met him, i can't say I don't like him, **** he could be completely different on the other side of the TCP/IP, I have heard otherwise but I'm willing to give anyone a shot in person, anyone. I found the irony in the replies to posts and the complete turning of meaning, some call it backpedaling, I call it lack of cohesive understanding or possibly a presumption that some were questioning him (which they were) thus turning the topic of said quiting completely around.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

```
<a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/03/11/funny-pictures-holding-hands-and-smiling/"><img class="mine_3485837" title="funny-pictures-csi-cat-studies-the-body-outlines" src="http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2009/03/funny-pictures-csi-cat-studies-the-body-outlines.jpg" alt="funny pictures of cats with captions" /></a><br />see more <a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com">Lolcats and funny pictures</a>
```


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> <a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/03/11/funny-pictures-holding-hands-and-smiling/"><img class="mine_3485837" title="funny-pictures-csi-cat-studies-the-body-outlines" src="http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2009/03/funny-pictures-csi-cat-studies-the-body-outlines.jpg" alt="funny pictures of cats with captions" /></a><br />see more <a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com">Lolcats and funny pictures</a>


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)




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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


>


You dick, GTFO of my photobucket! LOL


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

chad said:


> I stated several times that a vale base is absolutely personal, but he read right past it on several occasions, that's arrogant, especially taking a stab at it much deeper into the conversation.
> 
> I can also say this, I have been here a fairly long time, I have always done my best to help others, even providing as much humor as possible, because that's how I roll, it's supposed to be fun right? But I can also say another thing, I will still be here for a long time to come, I will always be there to help people as my time permits, I will make mistakes as I have in the past, I will learn from said mistakes and I will continue the enjoyment from learning from others. And yes, occasionally I'll be a dick at times too, quite frankly we all are at times.
> 
> ...


Well said and fair enough. I agree it's very hard on a message board to get a gauge of what someone's like. From a bit of an outsider (lurker) point of view...he was giving his opinion of drivers that he has experience with and got jumped for it. I think things turned for the worst when he brought up the paycheck to paycheck thing. Personally, I don't give a crap if someone thinks a Pyle tweeter is better than a HAT because it cost $239 less but sounds half as good. I'll save my money and buy what performs. I worked 3 jobs in 1988 saving up for a Soundstream MC500....could I have got a better amp for less???? Geez who cares.....I loved that freaking amp and it made it worth it because I sacrificed to get it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DonovanM said:


> You dick, GTFO of my photobucket! LOL


LMFAO! Sorry, man, I had to. 


Alright, google time...


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

Boo dogs.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> ```
> <a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/03/11/funny-pictures-holding-hands-and-smiling/"><img class="mine_3485837" title="funny-pictures-csi-cat-studies-the-body-outlines" src="http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2009/03/funny-pictures-csi-cat-studies-the-body-outlines.jpg" alt="funny pictures of cats with captions" /></a><br />see more <a href="http://icanhascheezburger.com">Lolcats and funny pictures</a>
> ```


Yeah their linking features suck hard.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

Guess which one is tspence:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)




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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Just quit on the **** stuff. It's grossing me out. :uhoh2:


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/pwntbypat/itgleams1.swf


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

DonovanM said:


> Guess which one is tspence:


Found'em....


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Just quit on the **** stuff. It's grossing me out. :uhoh2:


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

I have no idea on how to embed youtube videos...

YouTube - The YES dance


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

pwnt by pat said:


> I have no idea on how to embed youtube videos....


Failblog.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

Autiophile said:


> Here you go Donovan,
> 
> Episode Donovan and Tspence


OMFG I CANT STOP LAUGHING. .. IM CRYING OMG LOL


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Autiophile said:


> Here you go Donovan,
> 
> Episode Donovan and Tspence


You gotta stop.....I'm in tears here and becoming dehydrated.....


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

YES!!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> Here you go Donovan,
> 
> Episode Donovan and Tspence


Holy-****, that's so full of win.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> Here you go Donovan


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/celebrity-pictures-foghorn-leghorn-*****-slap.jpg


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

Why must you guys make me laugh so much when I need to be studying instead of reading the funnies.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> You clearly haven't spent much time reading the tests and reviews. Nobody is touting Pyle. We're touting well design drivers that perform as well as, or often better than, competing drivers in the car audio realm that fetch unreasonable prices. It's not about being cheap, it's about identifying value. That is an important distinction.
> 
> Get a clue.


You get a clue. Sure, there's value to that for some, but not all. If that's your bag then fine...if delving into on axis vs. off axis is your bag then fine...if just wanting a great install regardless of price is your bag then fine. Don't jump on others because their interest is not the same as yours. I don't have the time, patience, or money to make judgement purchases based on what you think is a well designed driver. I've wasted enough money on internet opinions like yours to know I'll stick with what's worked for me in the real world. Thanks. Trust me, I've got 3 damn PG Xenon 12's in my truck I wish I hadn't listened to people on that forum and bought off the hype & reviews.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Here you go Donovan,
> 
> Donovan and Tspence


Oh my God................. the Internet is all downhill from here for me.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Here you go Donovan,
> 
> Donovan and Tspence


I just spit out my soda all over my pc. Thanks! :laugh: :lol:


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)




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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Just quit on the **** stuff. It's grossing me out. :uhoh2:


If I had a dollar for every time I heard a guy say that.....I mean on top of the $10 they paid me...



DonovanM said:


> Shut the hell up tspence.
> 
> BTW, it's completely normal to have a "feminine body" and lips "only a plastic surgeon" could give a woman :laugh:


The lips appearance are actually a process of wanting to be romantic with the vacuum hose after he's done with it. There is nothing like sweet warm kisses after making love to 13.8 Amps of pure suction.



rockytophigh said:


> I'm reading product reviews, looking at great installs, viewing cat pictures currently...look, I just don't give a **** why a frequency trails off at a certain hertz......yadda, yadda, yadda. Some of us just want a kick ass install that sounds great and rocks ass, some of us want to learn how to install better, some of us want to find a solution to a problem in our systems. Actually with all the ******* prick responses in this thread, I'm not sure what anyone is doing here other than bitching.


It turns out that frequency stuff is important....go figure. You picked it, though, we're here cuz not only are we all assholes, we are funny assholes that enjoy placing feline photogrophy from time to time. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a Car Audi/Cat forum? They are usually seperate...again, go figure.



chad said:


> I stated several times that a vale base is absolutely personal, but he read right past it on several occasions, that's arrogant, especially taking a stab at it much deeper into the conversation.
> 
> I can also say this, I have been here a fairly long time, I have always done my best to help others, even providing as much humor as possible, because that's how I roll, it's supposed to be fun right? But I can also say another thing, I will still be here for a long time to come, I will always be there to help people as my time permits, I will make mistakes as I have in the past, I will learn from said mistakes and I will continue the enjoyment from learning from others. And yes, occasionally I'll be a dick at times too, quite frankly we all are at times.
> 
> ...


Jeeberstankle, Chad, you've reached run-on sentence factor 5. I think with a semicolon you could have stretched it a bit, much like Stephen King, seemingly infinite with one sentence; it is another way of pwning the situation as is well known that long sentences with alot of peculiar dots, commas, for example, may, in fact, be confusing and, therefore, end with, of course, a concession of said point by default which, by the way, reminds me of the following riddle: What is the difference between a complex sentence and a FEROCIOUS CAT (an obvious tie-in to the kitties a s well as an opportunity to further stretch this sentence)?!?!?! A FEROCIOUS CAT has claws at the ends of their paws and a sentence has a pause at the end of each clause.


I win. You all know it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

AWC said:


> Jeeberstankle, Chad, you've reached run-on sentence factor 5.
> 
> 
> I win. You all know it.














And to think I was saving that one up fro someone 

So indeed.....


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

To reply correctly, I'd like to quote the late and great Helen Keller when, in an interview with Time Magazine once said this, not only intellectually stimulating but emotionally gratifying statement: "DUUHHOYIIEEDUUUDUUHHH!!"


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

AWC said:


> What is the difference between a complex sentence and a FEROCIOUS CAT (an obvious tie-in to the kitties a s well as an opportunity to further stretch this sentence)?!?!?! A FEROCIOUS CAT has claws at the ends of their paws and a sentence has a pause at the end of each clause.


I never want to hear this phrase EVER AGAIN.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)




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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)




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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)




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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## bboyvek (Dec 16, 2008)

subscribed!!


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)




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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> There's a direct correlation between the documentation and how a speaker sounds. That's what the documentation is designed to elucidate. There's no correlation between the documentation and how a speaker tastes, whether it's cooked or eaten raw.
> 
> The documentation isn't designed to indicate whether you'll like the way the speaker sounds--it's up to you to determine the correlation between your preference and the documentation.


Damn I hate when I have to agree with Andy.... lol...

What you "hear"is not a measurement, its not an objective situation... its emotive.... emotional, if you will....

I just get a kick that Andy used "elucidate" in a public forum that most can't spell thesaurus... 

damn... I have missed a lot these last 2 weeks

Rob



Andy Jones said:


> Damn this forum has changed (in a good way). Few years ago it was all numbers and didn't even want to discuss actually listening to a driver. Now people are asking who has listened to the driver (not just held and looked at it).
> Nice.


oh SO true! You could look at it as the slow degradation of logic & intelligence.... hmmm... who'd a thunk it.... 

there is a fine line/balance between what the engineer/MENSA types think are "perfect" specs & the reality that everyone's ears are different & no one has the perfect score sheet or the absolute "yard stick"....

But then again... its been proven I don't have a "title" to my posts... 

Music is an E-M-T-I-O-N-A-L experience... its emotive... its inherently personal... therefore... you cannot MEASURE my ears.......my brain.... nor my cognitive response to what a company wants to TELL me is "right"

damn this forum is cathartic.... (yeah look it up)

Rob



Andy Jones said:


> Damn this forum has changed (in a good way). Few years ago it was all numbers and didn't even want to discuss actually listening to a driver. Now people are asking who has listened to the driver (not just held and looked at it).
> Nice.


oh SO true! You could look at it as the slow degradation of logic & intelligence.... hmmm... who'd a thunk it.... 

there is a fine line/balance between what the engineer/MENSA types think are "perfect" specs & the reality that everyone's ears are different & no one has the perfect score sheet or the absolute "yard stick"....

But then again... its been proven I don't have a "title" to my posts... 

Music is an E-M-T-I-O-N-A-L experience... its emotive... its inherently personal... therefore... you cannot MEASURE my ears.......my brain.... nor my cognitive response to what a company wants to TELL me is "right"

damn this forum is cathartic.... (yeah look it up)

Rob 

*edit* what rocks is that I am only on page 3 of this thread... talk about therapy!



bikinpunk said:


> I like McDonald's. And I like Fuddrucker's. McD's is close. I have to drive 2+ hours to get to the nearest Fuddy's.
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...


Erin... That is just f*ckin funny... thanks for that...

*edit* mental note don't call people by their first names without permission because the native's get unruly & restless...whatever.... 

Rob



dkm201 said:


> I agree, most of the people who believed in science and had a working knowledge of physics and acoustics have left.


because a "flat' RTA is sooooo musical or because that the "physics" says that the node between your ass & the hole in the wall... or even more logical, the room/boundary changes your calculator's "estimation?"

Funny... I have told SOOOOOO many competitors with a flat RTA in the judging lanes or in front of my store, how GREAT their FLAT RTA sounded .....


Rob



quality_sound said:


> Tell that to DS-21. In his world specs are everything and nothing will change his mind.
> 
> Having said that, I'd love to hear his car to see how a car built entirely on science and spces sounds vs. one built with the ear.



EXACTLY!!!!

see! I am agreeing with QS... ok... everyone watch for a plate-Teutonic-shift & other crazieness....

watch for global alignments & other crazy ****...

Rob

Page 5.... I give up.... enjoy ya'll

Rob


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

TXwrxWagon said:


> EXACTLY!!!!
> 
> see! I am agreeing with QS... ok... everyone watch for a plate-Teutonic-shift & other crazieness....
> 
> ...


You know you can multi-quote in the same post.



TXwrxWagon said:


> Page 5.... I give up.... enjoy ya'll
> 
> Rob


Like this. It's pretty easy, too


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)




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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

TXwrxWagon said:


> because a "flat' RTA is sooooo musical or because that the "physics" says that the node between your ass & the hole in the wall... or even more logical, the room/boundary changes your calculator's "estimation?"
> 
> Funny... I have told SOOOOOO many competitors with a flat RTA in the judging lanes or in front of my store, how GREAT their FLAT RTA sounded .....
> 
> ...


Not sure where you got that I was arguing for the merits of a flat RTA reading, but if it makes you happy to think that, go for it!

P.S. Use more ellipses.

P.P.S. Make more consecutive posts.

P.P.P.S Have more of a weird paranoid persecution complex.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I'd say, without a doubt, that I'm a dog person. Cats are cool and all but they come off as dicks sometimes. I think we should just switch the whole damn thing tho cats since the topic went by the wayside awhile ago....what the hell are we talking about anyway?


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Ziggy said:


>


Pchop, FTW!


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)




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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

there's more liquor in the background than kid in the foreground...


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## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

TXwrxWagon said:


> EXACTLY!!!!
> see! I am agreeing with QS... ok... everyone watch for a plate-Teutonic-shift & other crazieness....
> Rob


Where are the Germans shifting to now?

Or did you mean _tectonic_ plate shift?


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

Blu said:


> Where are the Germans shifting to now?
> 
> Or did you mean _tectonic_ plate shift?


Bahahaha... Teutonic  

Love it!


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)




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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)




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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

Here I thought this was going to be worthless thread, and then it filled up with cats and became epic! I gotta admit the DonavanM/tspence thing is pretty funny too - particularly since I have had tspence on ignore for months. I have to guess at what tnonsense said from DonavanM's responses. It makes the game much more challenging - and rewarding.


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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)

schuey_1 said:


> I agree.


You've spent too much time in the Philippines....


----------

