# Dash pods vs. A-pillars. Pros and Cons...



## Fricasseekid

So I'm designing my first active system. It will consist of 2 15s IB, peerless SLS 8s in the doors, and I Ive just received a pair of Fountek FR89 wideband drivers in the mail. I'm gonna keep it simple with a 2 way front stage for now but plan to add a small tweeter to handle the extreme upper range in the future. 

I plan on making an oblong baffle so it has room on one side to add the set of tweeters down the road. The part I'm not sure about is whether or not I should fab these into my A-pillars or make dash pods that sit where the factory tweeter grills are currently located. I have an 02' Accord sedan and a MiniDSP that I plan to use for processing. 

I also don't know if I should use some kind of PVC or Tupperware for enclosures behind the Fountek's. Seeing as how I plan to run the FR89s from 3-400 and up for a while, I'd like to hear some opinions on the matter and weigh my options.


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## Fricasseekid

Anybody?


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## thomasluke

I'd go with a hybrid pod that sits on the dash and butts up against the apillar.
I plan on doing just that with a set of Vifa NE tweets. 
They about a 3 inch flange and almost an inch and a half of depth so molding them into the apillar was some what of a fail.
It worked but i couldnt see out the corners of my wind shield because of the depth.


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## Darth SQ

Fricasseekid said:


> Anybody?


Might I suggest you attend your next local IASCA, MECA, USAC competition and audition both formats.
That's the best way to find the answer to your question and many others that I am sure you'll have on that day.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Fricasseekid

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Might I suggest you attend your next local IASCA, MECA, USAC competition and audition both formats.
> That's the best way to find the answer to your question and many others that I am sure you'll have on that day.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I'd love to but the majority of competitions we have around here are full of bassheads and low riders. We don't even have and IASCA or MECA events in south Louisiana that I know of.


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## Darth SQ

Fricasseekid said:


> I'd love to but the majority of competitions we have around here are full of bassheads and low riders. We don't even have and IASCA or MECA events in south Louisiana that I know of.


How about in Mississippi?
Texas?
Or you can fly out to Cali and attend our next big event.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Fricasseekid

MS or TX might be doable. But otherwise I just don't got it like that. I'm like a bass fisherman amongst marlin anglers. It had been said that my lack of experience actually hearing SQ systems could work to my advantage.


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## IDGAF

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Might I suggest you attend your next local IASCA, MECA, USAC competition and audition both formats.
> That's the best way to find the answer to your question and many others that I am sure you'll have on that day.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Let me know when you find these down here. I wanna go too. Lol.

The OVERWHELMING majority opinion of "SQ" down here is PA drivers (not good ones) and distance tests.

The best two setups I've heard in this state (other than mine, of course ) consisted of Supremos + Zapco and the other of Utopias and Mosconi. Neither had processing or EQ other than the lower line Kenwood HU's without T/A. Both were... lacking.

Sorry for the derailment. I say stuff them as far into the dash/a pillar/windshiled corner as you can.


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## co_leonard

thomasluke said:


> I'd go with a hybrid pod that sits on the dash and butts up against the apillar.
> I plan on doing just that with a set of Vifa NE tweets.
> They about a 3 inch flange and almost an inch and a half of depth so molding them into the apillar was some what of a fail.
> It worked but i couldnt see out the corners of my wind shield because of the depth.


That's actually a judging criteria for a sound quality competition that my friends and I join over where I live. 

We follow the EMMA (European) format and they have a "4cm Rule." Basically they put a 4cm-wide strip of paper outside on the windshield edges, then sit in the driver's seat. If any speaker or enclosure goes beyond 4cm and blocks the strip of paper, you get a point deduction.

This discouraged those who installed large midbass drivers on their A-pillars, as good as they sounded. Hehe..


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## Fricasseekid

IDGAF said:


> . Sorry for the derailment. I say stuff them as far into the dash/a pillar/windshiled corner as you can.


This is the plan. I want to build pods that will rest on the dash right up against the pillars and point on axis. First off glassing my pillars only to have to redo them a dozen times cause I don't like the sound doesn't seem fun. Secondly the pods seem like they would be easier to get on axis than the pillars. 

The only problem I have is figuring how big the pods need to be to get the fr89s to extend low. 

Can you model midrange drivers in WinISD like woofers?


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## IBcivic

Fricasseekid said:


> Can you model midrange drivers in WinISD like woofers?


Yup
I built mine on the smallish side and used polyfill to compensate. I find that I get alot less reflections coming through the cone, with stuffing.


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## Fricasseekid

IBcivic said:


> Yup
> I built mine on the smallish side and used polyfill to compensate. I find that I get alot less reflections coming through the cone, with stuffing.


Care to link me to a picture? Your build thread maybe?
I saw them before. But you look at so much stuff around here sometimes it's hard to remember what's what.


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## IBcivic

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...iz-gone-loco-some-8ohm-drivers-o-img_1397.jpg

I haven't updated in a while....Got the wind temporarily knocked out of my sails.


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## Fricasseekid

Those look nice. 
Thanks.


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## ansuser

I've done almost exactly similar to what you are going to do.



































These are aluminum dash pods for Founteks FR88-ex. They are ~0.6 liter each. With such volume you can get F3 as low as 125 Hz. But harmonic distortion at these feqs is pretty high and output is low.

From my experience, really "sweet" usable range for these "fullranges" is from 200 Hz to 4000 Hz. Below this range they are just anemic, above - harsh and start to beam. 

Looking back, now I would make them symmetrically aimed and most probably in a-pillars, vented through acoustically resistive foam.

Also, in my system, dashboard cover helps a lot to remove nasty reflections from dashboard.


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## Fricasseekid

ansuser said:


> I've done almost exactly similar to what you are going to do.
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> These are aluminum dash pods for Founteks FR88-ex. They are ~0.6 liter each. With such volume you can get F3 as low as 125 Hz. But harmonic distortion at these feqs is pretty high and output is low.
> 
> From my experience, really "sweet" usable range for these "fullranges" is from 200 Hz to 4000 Hz. Below this range they are just anemic, above - harsh and start to beam.
> 
> Looking back, now I would make them symmetrically aimed and most probably in a-pillars, vented through acoustically resistive foam.
> 
> Also, in my system, dashboard cover helps a lot to remove nasty reflections from dashboard.


Those are really nice. I like the upholstering very much. You stitched that yourself? 

Have any photos of the pods finished and installed?


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## ansuser

Fricasseekid said:


> Those are really nice. I like the upholstering very much. You stitched that yourself?
> 
> Have any photos of the pods finished and installed?


Thanks, man.

Nope, stitching is the only thing I ordered in the shop.

I have not got enough time to asthetically comlete the system (in my place we have snow from October to April and I don't have warm garage).

These are pictures to give you impression on how it is lined up:

































And my system layout:


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## Boostedrex

I've built setups with similar drivers in both styles (on dash over stock tweeter grill and in the pillar). My suggestion is to get them in the pillars as much as possible. The wider you can get the mids mounted, the easier it will be to get the stage width you're after. If you're going to run a tweeter on top of the FR89 then being on axis isn't as big of a consideration IMHO/IME. I actually preferred the drivers to be slightly off axis and angled up towards the headliner a little. Smoothed some of the top end out.


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## Fricasseekid

Boostedrex said:


> I've built setups with similar drivers in both styles (on dash over stock tweeter grill and in the pillar). My suggestion is to get them in the pillars as much as possible. The wider you can get the mids mounted, the easier it will be to get the stage width you're after. If you're going to run a tweeter on top of the FR89 then being on axis isn't as big of a consideration IMHO/IME. I actually preferred the drivers to be slightly off axis and angled up towards the headliner a little. Smoothed some of the top end out.


My main reason for mounting on axis was to tame some initial reflections.


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## Boostedrex

What surface are you concerned with as far as reflections go?


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## Fricasseekid

Glass


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## Boostedrex

You can help to minimize that by building a lip that protrudes along that edge of the pod. Doesn't even have to extend very far. You'd be surprised how much that can help. Not that it will eliminate the issue, but it will help with it a great deal.


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## quality_sound

ansuser said:


> I've done almost exactly similar to what you are going to do.
> 
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> 
> These are aluminum dash pods for Founteks FR88-ex. They are ~0.6 liter each. With such volume you can get F3 as low as 125 Hz. But harmonic distortion at these feqs is pretty high and output is low.
> 
> From my experience, really "sweet" usable range for these "fullranges" is from 200 Hz to 4000 Hz. Below this range they are just anemic, above - harsh and start to beam.
> 
> Looking back, now I would make them symmetrically aimed and most probably in a-pillars, vented through acoustically resistive foam.
> 
> Also, in my system, dashboard cover helps a lot to remove nasty reflections from dashboard.


If you decide to try a-pillars I'll take these. I'd like to try a few things.


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## bigbubba

That almost has the exact shape as the one I started building the other night. Only mine is going to be attached to the A-pillar. Hope to have them done soon.










I decided to mount mine to the a-pillar beacuse if I didn't like it I can change it back with the original set. I went to a salvage yard and found a set for $10 just a different color. If I cut into the dash, that would be hard for me to replace.


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## chad1376

ansuser said:


>


Ah Ha! - I was just browsing, looking for Ideas for my Mk6 GTI. I really like these. You might see something remarkably similar from me in the future. :thumbsup:

Curious: How did you join the aluminum at the edges?


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## ansuser

chad1376 said:


> Ah Ha! - I was just browsing, looking for Ideas for my Mk6 GTI. I really like these. You might see something remarkably similar from me in the future. :thumbsup:
> 
> Curious: How did you join the aluminum at the edges?


I'm glad you liked it.
I used 2-component epoxy glue Poxipol (it's aluminum powder filled sort of cold weld). It came out pretty rigid but fragile.
Frankly speaking, gluing aluminum is a major PITA due to oxide film on the surface.
There are a lot of professional glues for aluminum, but most of them require appliyng pressure and heating, which is not realistic for home conditions.
But in anyway, surface sanding and proper de-greasing as a must.

There is a trick to remove oxide film:
First, you put layer of epoxy on the part.
Second, you scratch surface with something sharp (nail tip or knife etc.), making sure that surface being scratched is still covered by epoxy layer. By this you will remove oxide film and ensure oxygen don't reach the surface.

Also, to provide air tightness of the dashpod, put glue with good excess and get prepared to file/sand a lot! :laugh:


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## Fricasseekid

Glassing wasn't an option?


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## ansuser

It was, but I don't like this mess.

Besides, aluminum is much more rigid, which is good.


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## robtr8

I'm fairly happy with my setup for sound, still working on fit and finish. I had to fight a nasty reflection gain around 3k but that EQ'd out easily. Imaging is awesome. I think the key in this situation is to have no/very little direct radiation from the drivers. At least that's what worked for me. You can build temporary pods using PVC caps to play with your aiming.


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## chad1376

ansuser said:


> I'm glad you liked it.
> I used 2-component epoxy glue Poxipol (it's aluminum powder filled sort of cold weld). It came out pretty rigid but fragile.
> Frankly speaking, gluing aluminum is a major PITA due to oxide film on the surface.
> There are a lot of professional glues for aluminum, but most of them require appliyng pressure and heating, which is not realistic for home conditions.
> But in anyway, surface sanding and proper de-greasing as a must.
> 
> There is a trick to remove oxide film:
> First, you put layer of epoxy on the part.
> Second, you scratch surface with something sharp (nail tip or knife etc.), making sure that surface being scratched is still covered by epoxy layer. By this you will remove oxide film and ensure oxygen don't reach the surface.
> 
> Also, to provide air tightness of the dashpod, put glue with good excess and get prepared to file/sand a lot! :laugh:


Thank You. Luckily, I have a fair assortment of metalworking tools, including a small 2" pneumatic disk sander that should make quick work of any sanding and finish work. I've had a little bit of success using aluminum braising rod (from Harbor Freight). I may even give it a go in steel, since I'm getting moderately proficient in welding sheetmetal. In any case, I guess the first step is to get out some cardboard, scissors and masking tape.


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## ansuser

chad1376 said:


> Thank You. Luckily, I have a fair assortment of metalworking tools, including a small 2" pneumatic disk sander that should make quick work of any sanding and finish work. I've had a little bit of success using aluminum braising rod (from Harbor Freight). I may even give it a go in steel, since I'm getting moderately proficient in welding sheetmetal. In any case, I guess the first step is to get out some cardboard, scissors and masking tape.


I have started with 2 big chunks of polystirol foam.
Next step was 3D modeling with drawings for laser cutter.


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## Datsubishi

Sub'd for reference.


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## Boostedrex

There is some really good info in this thread! Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.


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## audioxincsq

some of my pods, need to play with piler pods more next


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## SACRAMANIAC916

chad1376 said:


> Ah Ha! - I was just browsing, looking for Ideas for my Mk6 GTI. I really like these. You might see something remarkably similar from me in the future. :thumbsup:
> 
> Curious: How did you join the aluminum at the edges?


lookin good!


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## papasin

I was lucky. Best of both worlds: Sealed Pods in A-pillars


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## audioxincsq

Are those tiny ribbon tweets??


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## papasin

audioxincsq said:


> Are those tiny ribbon tweets??


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1720511-post65.html


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## Fricasseekid

Those pillars are beautiful man. 

I'm hoping to find some little transducers or ambient tweeters to match up with my Fountek 89s.


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## papasin

Fricasseekid said:


> Those pillars are beautiful man.


All fabrication credit for pillars go to jtaudioacc .

EDIT: pods integrated in pillars with ~0.7L of airspace, which is ideal for the Nz3s that work optimally in 0.5-1.0L per Mark Brooks.


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## chad1376

Bringing this thread back from near dead..

I'm fabbing up steel pods (inpired by Ansuser). The boxes have some sharp corners and would be a big hazard in an accident. I'm looking for suggestions on how to securely mount these to the dash without drilling holes. Strong two-way tape may work, but I'm worried that after sitting in the hot (Las Vegas) sun, the adhesive would still damage my dash. I'm also thinking a vertical tab that slips between the A-pillar and edge of the dash might work. Anyone have any better ideas?

Cardboard mock-up:








Sheetmetal boxes in porgress - one with ground welds, one unfinished;


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## quietfly

in an accident if its not bolted down, i'm not sure anything will keep them on the deck of your dash. especially since the dash will be such a hostile environment in the Vegas sun.


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## IBcivic

quietfly said:


> in an accident if its not bolted down, i'm not sure anything will keep them on the deck of your dash. especially since the dash will be such a hostile environment in the Vegas sun.


For sure! Those pods look as lethal as ninja stars (shuriken)


Great fab work, BTW!


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## ansuser

chad1376 said:


> Bringing this thread back from near dead..
> 
> I'm fabbing up steel pods (inpired by Ansuser). The boxes have some sharp corners and would be a big hazard in an accident. I'm looking for suggestions on how to securely mount these to the dash without drilling holes. Strong two-way tape may work, but I'm worried that after sitting in the hot (Las Vegas) sun, the adhesive would still damage my dash. I'm also thinking a vertical tab that slips between the A-pillar and edge of the dash might work. Anyone have any better ideas?


Those pods looks good! How much time did you spend on it?

If you are so concerned on safety issue, you can probably weld the bolt or threaded pin to the A-pillar and make a hole in the pod, then mount it with nut before mounting the speaker. 
Hope you understood what I tried to explain


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## chad1376

Thanks everyone, I'm doubly conviced now that anything less than a bolt of some sort is a serious safety issue.



ansuser said:


> Those pods looks good! How much time did you spend on it?
> 
> If you are so concerned on safety issue, you can probably weld the bolt or threaded pin to the A-pillar and make a hole in the pod, then mount it with nut before mounting the speaker.
> Hope you understood what I tried to explain


I was kind of thinking the same thing. I'm going to pull the a-pillar plastic this weekend to see what I have to work with. I'm hoping I can securely mount a steel strap somewhere out of sight, and run it up in the crack between the dash and pillar. With a bolt welded to the strap, and a hole in the side of the pod, I should be able to secure these. 

I spent the better part of this 3-day weekend (at a leasurely pace) messing with these. I still plan on giving them a skim coat of filler to smooth them out, and lining the inside with leftover bedliner + dynamat. Right now they ring just like a cowbell. Still deciding on the finish. Most likely, I'll prime them with black, and coat the outside with plasi-dip.


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## Fricasseekid

Can't wait to see them all finished out!


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## Fricasseekid

Anybody else wanna share photos of some snazzy dash pods?


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## Wy2quiet

I am totally in the same boat deciding what to do...want to run 89's tweeterless as well. Harsh top end doesn't really bother me because of the tuning (64 band PEQ) capability I have with a calibrated mic.


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## papasin

Fricasseekid said:


> Anybody else wanna share photos of some snazzy dash pods?


I liked the dash pods badfish had last year before he changed his set up due to the 2013 MECA rules.


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## Fricasseekid

papasin said:


> I liked the dash pods badfish had last year before he changed his set up due to the 2013 MECA rules.


This is almost exactly what I have in mind for my Founteks. I wanna use flocking, and the same angle and all that, except I don't plan on mounting tweets in my pods. I also want a little grill cover that snaps onto the front.


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## edouble101

I will never use dash pods again. Very obtrusive and poor stage width.

Mine


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## Fricasseekid

edouble101 said:


> I will never use dash pods again. Very obtrusive and poor stage width.
> 
> Mine


Those tweets in the sails didnt help with stage width? 

So you e moved your mids where?


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## [email protected]

Mine aren't very obtrusive. Pic on the table is a new grill I just stamped to fit the new speakers (illusion carbon tweeter and focal be 3").


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid

[email protected] said:


> Mine aren't very obtrusive. Pic on the table is a new grill I just stamped to fit the new speakers (illusion carbon tweeter and focal be 3").
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What holds those grills in and is the lip around the grill one piece with the baffle?


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## Bayboy

Quite a controversy compared to what has been said in other threads. However, I feel there's always a sacrifice within reason. My limited trials with dash pods were only a pair of RS75-4 in tupperware bowls. Obtrusive? Mehhh.... somewhat, but nothing monstrous looking like some in these pics. Some are pretty big, but they also seem to have plenty room on the dash to accommodate them.

I played with on/off -axis and there was a happy medium being slightly off. At that time I had nothing other than a DQX to control it all so I'm sure it was not maximized.

I'm curious to try it again with a shallower driver and molded into the a-pillars. My cabin is just too narrow to get good angling down in the kicks so if stage width is compromised I guess I will have to deal with it until I figure something else out.


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## Wy2quiet

edouble101 said:


> I will never use dash pods again. Very obtrusive and poor stage width.


Can you expand on this please? I am pretty much planning on doing the same thing and am put off by what you have said.


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## edouble101

Fricasseekid said:


> Those tweets in the sails didnt help with stage width?
> 
> So you e moved your mids where?


I did not user the tweeters in the sail panels. This pic was taken before I replaced them with blank panels.

New install











Wy2quiet said:


> Can you expand on this please? I am pretty much planning on doing the same thing and am put off by what you have said.


Stage width was narrower compared to a-pillar mounting. I also noticed less transparency (speakers were easily identifiable) which I think may have been caused by wiked reflections from the dash and windshield. 

Cosmetically I think dash pods do not blend well with the car. I do like (cosmetically) most a-pillar installs.


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## Fricasseekid

Bayboy said:


> Quite a controversy compared to what has been said in other threads. However, I feel there's always a sacrifice within reason. My limited trials with dash pods were only a pair of RS75-4 in tupperware bowls. Obtrusive? Mehhh.... somewhat, but nothing monstrous looking like some in these pics. Some are pretty big, but they also seem to have plenty room on the dash to accommodate them.
> 
> I played with on/off -axis and there was a happy medium being slightly off. At that time I had nothing other than a DQX to control it all so I'm sure it was not maximized.
> 
> I'm curious to try it again with a shallower driver and molded into the a-pillars. My cabin is just too narrow to get good angling down in the kicks so if stage width is compromised I guess I will have to deal with it until I figure something else out.


I haven't much experience to base this on but:
My thoughts are to aim both speakers up towards the roof back near the c-pillars and across the center of the car to the right of my head. I see this achieving two things. 
A. It seems to be the axis that would minimize reflections that shoot directly back at the driver 
B. Both left an right speakers will be pointed symmetrically in the car while neither is much farther of axis than the other with respect to the listening position. 

I imagine it would be a huge PITA to have one midrange nearly on axis and the other off. 

I also plain to add some ambient tweeters to the sail panels later on if needed. This will be to help add that sparkle to the top end and hopefully increase stage width. 

I might would like to compete one day, but I also don't want to become so obsessed with staging that I sacrifice other aspects of my systems playback.


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## Fricasseekid

edouble101 said:


> I did not user the tweeters in the sail panels. This pic was taken before I replaced them with blank panels.
> 
> New install
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stage width was narrower compared to a-pillar mounting. I also noticed less transparency (speakers were easily identifiable) which I think may have been caused by wiked reflections from the dash and windshield.
> 
> Cosmetically I think dash pods do not blend well with the car. I do like (cosmetically) most a-pillar installs.


Those are some very fine looking a-pillars. There are quite a few dash pods that look very good in the car and don't seem obtrusive at all in this thread as well. 

With your new set up it seems like you'd be battling reflections off the driver and passenger windows (crosstalk I believe it's called?). Do you find this to be the lesser of two evils compared to the dash pods?


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## Wy2quiet

edouble101 said:


> Stage width was narrower compared to a-pillar mounting. I also noticed less transparency (speakers were easily identifiable) which I think may have been caused by wiked reflections from the dash and windshield.
> 
> Cosmetically I think dash pods do not blend well with the car. I do like (cosmetically) most a-pillar installs.


I don't mind using the pillars instead, however in that case the drivers are physically closer to the driver, and there is a greater difference between L&R distances. Not only that, it seems you are running off-axis from the a-pillar. I want to run an Alpair 3.5" only and not any tweeter, therefore I need on-axis mounting. Would you still suggest pillars?


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## Bayboy

The issue I've seen is that to get proper on-axis you can't be worried about aesthetics since the drivers will have to situated differently. I see an example or two in the given pics. Some of the pillar pods look good, but I can't help but to wonder since axis will be different left vs right as it was in mine. The right side dominated and eq'ing them to match sonically was hell. But perhaps that point is pointless...


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## Wy2quiet

Bayboy said:


> The issue I've seen is that to get proper on-axis you can't be worried about aesthetics since the drivers will have to situated differently. I see an example or two in the given pics. Some of the pillar pods look good, but I can't help but to wonder since axis will be different left vs right as it was in mine. The right side dominated and eq'ing them to match sonically was hell. But perhaps that point is pointless...


That is exactly my point. Right now I have my mids in the doors below. As it is, that is a massive PITA to tune since they are very different in axis. *I do not care about aesthetics relating to angle differences*, especially not after what I have learned from attempting symmetry.

My tweets have the same problem. My left tweet is pretty close (15*) to on axis, but the right is considerably more off, to be symmetrical. So not only do I have frequency response differences from axis, but distance and dispersion causes even more problems since the left is, naturally, so close to my left ear being on the pillar. DISASTER, WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. I have learned to go on axis from now on, and then EQ harshness if I want to with my RTA. Trying to compensate with different angles is just too difficult IMO. 

That is why i want to run the Alpairs from 250-20k, both on axis.


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## edouble101

Fricasseekid said:


> Those are some very fine looking a-pillars. There are quite a few dash pods that look very good in the car and don't seem obtrusive at all in this thread as well.
> 
> With your new set up it seems like you'd be battling reflections off the driver and passenger windows (crosstalk I believe it's called?). Do you find this to be the lesser of two evils compared to the dash pods?


After tuning I have a fairly tight center image, stage width is a-pillar wide, stage height is above the dash and at worse stage depth is at the base of the windshield. I find stage width to be very important in creating a realistic soundstage. To maximize stage width I believe that kick panel mounting mids would be best. There are a number of reasons that I will not mount my mids there. Foremost is that I will always have my midbass mounted in the kicks. But that is another topic. I have no cross talk issues that I can identify. And nobody else that has listened to my car has said so. The only reflection issue I can identify is affecting stage width which again isnt so bad but could be improved.

From my experiences I find a-pillar mounting superior to dash pods in every aspect. Although if I was to compete in a stock class and have factory speaker openings in the dash corners I would certainly make the best use of that install. 

I found it very beneficial to use the largest driver possible (~4") in the a-pillars. You want to high pass your mid as low as possible which dramatically improves stage width. Even with kick panel mounted midbass drivers. If I were to redo my a-pillars I would go back to the Tang Band mids that I had but I would machine off the mounting flange. They would mount similiar to the JL 4"ers I have now. I also have a set of Morel 4"ers that are flangeless that might work great.


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## Fricasseekid

Fricasseekid said:


> I haven't much experience to base this on but:
> My thoughts are to aim both speakers (fountek fr-89s) up towards the roof back near the c-pillars and across the center of the car to the right of my head. I'll have the HPed somewhere between 250-500 hz.
> I see this achieving two things.
> A. It seems to be the axis that would minimize reflections that shoot directly back at the driver
> B. Both left an right speakers will be pointed symmetrically in the car while neither is much farther of axis than the other with respect to the listening position.
> 
> I imagine it would be a huge PITA to have one midrange nearly on axis and the other off.
> 
> I also plain to add some ambient tweeters to the sail panels later on if needed. This will be to help add that sparkle to the top end and hopefully increase stage width. These I would HP as high as possible to still affect stage width. 5k or higher?
> 
> I might would like to compete one day, but I also don't want to become so obsessed with staging that I sacrifice other aspects of my systems playback.


So do you guys mind critiquing the set up I mentioned in the quote above. I'd like to know what kind of problems I'm likely to run into and how custom a-pillars would be an improvement over this, if that is the case.


----------



## Bayboy

Wy2quiet said:


> That is exactly my point. Right now I have my mids in the doors below. As it is, that is a massive PITA to tune since they are very different in axis. *I do not care about aesthetics relating to angle differences*, especially not after what I have learned from attempting symmetry.
> 
> My tweets have the same problem. My left tweet is pretty close (15*) to on axis, but the right is considerably more off, to be symmetrical. So not only do I have frequency response differences from axis, but distance and dispersion causes even more problems since the left is, naturally, so close to my left ear being on the pillar. DISASTER, WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. I have learned to go on axis from now on, and then EQ harshness if I want to with my RTA. Trying to compensate with different angles is just too difficult IMO.
> 
> That is why i want to run the Alpairs from 250-20k, both on axis.


So basically this aligns with what Andy states about being a single seat setup. I suppose not bad if that's what you want, still though there are some fairly obvious sacrifices for pods up top whether dash or pillar. 

I have that same issue with my midbass in the doors. The driver's side is badly different than the passenger's side. My only viable solution to date was to limit the bandwidth which creates the dash/pillar issue since a lower extension is needed up top to mate with the doors.


----------



## papasin

Fricasseekid said:


> So do you guys mind critiquing the set up I mentioned in the quote above. I'd like to know what kind of problems I'm likely to run into and how custom a-pillars would be an improvement over this, if that is the case.


My suggestion is to test for yourself. Put your drivers on some towels and aim and reaim. Test as many configurations as you can. Every car is different and it's going to be a game of trade offs. We all can give you suggestions on what worked and didn't work for our builds but our car(s) and drivers will most likely be different. Unless you can find the same car who is using the same driver, then that may be really useful. My $0.02 FWIW .


----------



## papasin

Fricasseekid said:


> This is almost exactly what I have in mind for my Founteks. I wanna use flocking, and the same angle and all that, except I don't plan on mounting tweets in my pods. I also want a little grill cover that snaps onto the front.





[email protected] said:


> Mine aren't very obtrusive. Pic on the table is a new grill I just stamped to fit the new speakers (illusion carbon tweeter and focal be 3").
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Joey, do you have a pic of the pods you guys built for Golden Ear? That sounds pretty much like what the OP is looking for .


----------



## edouble101

Fricasseekid said:


> I haven't much experience to base this on but:
> My thoughts are to aim both speakers up towards the roof back near the c-pillars and across the center of the car to the right of my head. I see this achieving two things.
> A. It seems to be the axis that would minimize reflections that shoot directly back at the driver
> B. Both left an right speakers will be pointed symmetrically in the car while neither is much farther of axis than the other with respect to the listening position.
> 
> I imagine it would be a huge PITA to have one midrange nearly on axis and the other off.
> *
> You will want to mount both drivers on axis. Off axis high frequency roll-off is greater than lower frequencies with a fullrange driver. Mounting these drivers on axis will get the best high extension available.*
> 
> I also plain to add some ambient tweeters to the sail panels later on if needed. This will be to help add that sparkle to the top end and hopefully increase stage width.
> 
> *For this install mounting tweeters in the sail panels will not increase stage width. Your stage width will come from your midrange and midbass. High frequencies (+8khz) affect stage height.*
> 
> I might would like to compete one day, but I also don't want to become so obsessed with staging that I sacrifice other aspects of my systems playback.
> 
> *What would be negatively affected by designing your install for a good soundstage?*


...............


----------



## [email protected]

Fricasseekid said:


> What holds those grills in and is the lip around the grill one piece with the baffle?


That lip around the grill is the trim ring
Of the grill. It comes off. The piece is held on with magnets flushed into the pod.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## subwoofery

Wy2quiet said:


> Can you expand on this please? I am pretty much planning on doing the same thing and am put off by what you have said.


Azimuth angle... Here's a quote from MarkZ that explains it a bit (good info in the thread too) 


MarkZ said:


> Now we're talkin'!
> 
> Your width measurements don't cut the mustard though. Here's why. The measurements that define width are azimuthal angle, not distance between them. Trigonometry obviously allows us to calculate what the angle is based on your width measurements and the distance to the head. But it should be fairly obvious qualitatively that the door positions provide greater azimuthal angle, and therefore more "width", than either of the other two positions. I can't tell from the pics whether or not the pillar or sails provides more width than the kicks, although it looks like the left sail does because it's a lot closer to you. The pillar, maybe not so much, especially since there's a pretty ballsy reflection coming off the glass, which is more medial than lateral. The pillars in this car suck.
> 
> PS - why do we care about azimuthal angle? Because that's what the brain uses to compute lateral position. It does this through ITD and ILD, which depends on the angle of the speaker wrt the two ears.


See pic below: 








Looking straight ahead @ the wheel is 0° 
If you install your left midrange in the sails, you have to look to your left @ the 340° position to look @ your driver
Left midrange in the kicks, you might have to look to your left @ the 330° position - therefore kicks will have more width than your a-pillar mid 
Left midrange low in the door, you might have to look to your left @ the 320° position - again there, the doors will have more widths than your kicks

Install your midrange @ the 270° left and 90° (like headphones) and you'll have greater width but you'll have to be a master tuner to pull this off 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

edouble101 said:


> ...............


Actually, treble frequencies (can't tell you which one) will give you some sense of increased width, but they won't go past much where they are installed... 
Have mid in the pillars and the tweeter in the sails, you'll have some increased width if your sails are are wider than the pillars 

Kelvin


----------



## Wy2quiet

subwoofery said:


> Azimuth angle... Here's a quote from MarkZ that explains it a bit (good info in the thread too)
> 
> 
> See pic below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking straight ahead @ the wheel is 0°
> If you install your left midrange in the sails, you have to look to your left @ the 340° position to look @ your driver
> Left midrange in the kicks, you might have to look to your left @ the 330° position - therefore kicks will have more width than your a-pillar mid
> Left midrange low in the door, you might have to look to your left @ the 320° position - again there, the doors will have more widths than your kicks
> 
> Install your midrange @ the 270° left and 90° (like headphones) and you'll have greater width but you'll have to be a master tuner to pull this off
> 
> Kelvin



Doesn't this all sacrifice depth however? To me, headphones have great channel separation however they don't provide something that is infront of me like I am at a concert. I have ATH-M50's, but I also know that sound is impossible to strive for. The noise floor is so low, and frequency response is very linear. It is more like I am on stage with the band.


----------



## subwoofery

Wy2quiet said:


> Doesn't this all sacrifice depth however? To me, headphones have great channel separation however they don't provide something that is infront of me like I am at a concert. I have ATH-M50's, but I also know that sound is impossible to strive for. The noise floor is so low, and frequency response is very linear. It is more like I am on stage with the band.


Please don't confuse stage depth with where the stage appears/starts before you... 
You achieve stage depth with tuning (phase and levels) - depth as in where your stage ends
You can still achieve great depth even if your stage starts 5 inches from your noise 

If you want the stage to start a lot further away from you, try to install the tweeters away from you (dash or pillars instead of sails or high-in-door) AND minimize reflections 
^ this will get you a 10th row concert type of feel instead of front row 

Kelvin


----------



## quietfly

subwoofery said:


> Actually, treble frequencies (can't tell you which one) will give you some sense of increased width, but they won't go past much where they are installed...
> Have mid in the pillars and the tweeter in the sails, you'll have some increased width if your sails are are wider than the pillars
> 
> Kelvin



so this being said, is it better to have the tweeters as wide as you can but still being on axis to the listeners?


----------



## subwoofery

I always get a better sound when I'm within the 15°-30° off-axis range 
Did not like any on-axis tweeters I've tried... My experience 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

*Finding my self with Mids in pods and a-pillars mounted in the same car once and end it with Mids in kicks... + tweeters in Sail panels*

I wouldn't mind any of the 3 options, *but! without a proper sound processor *it's not going to generate a good solid stage. (got to love Time Alignment, Left & Right EQ, and all the goodies for car audio)

I end up with a point source (Mids) in the kick area, works for me in my favor, probably not the best solution for others, I just wanted to maximize the Stage, *like Subwoofery states above a 10th row concert feeling.*

.


----------



## Bayboy

Ughhh... this is getting hard to keep up with. Of course there is a sacrifice in whatever you opt for, but in general which is worse/best if doing a 3-way front stage? I definitely don't have a wide cabin like most so I guess I'm screwed.


----------



## derickveliz

Bayboy said:


> Ughhh... this is getting hard to keep up with. Of course there is a sacrifice in whatever you opt for, but in general which is worse/best if doing a 3-way front stage? I definitely don't have a wide cabin like most so I guess I'm screwed.


*I would choose from a 3 way and a 2 way according to car specific *

worse... a 3 way system takes *more tuning* and adjusting
best... a 3 way can be more convenient car specific (when you tell somebody else also sounds Cool) *"Yeah I have a 3 way!"*

worse... a 2 way system installing a big Mid/bass where doesn't fit
*best... a 2 way easier to tune.*

just my 2 cts, 

What car do you have, my Yaris is not the widest ...



.


----------



## Bayboy

derickveliz said:


> *I would choose from a 3 way and a 2 way according to car specific *
> 
> worse... a 3 way system takes *more tuning* and adjusting
> best... a 3 way can be more convenient car specific (when you tell somebody else also sounds Cool) *"Yeah I have a 3 way!"*
> 
> worse... a 2 way system installing a big Mid/bass where doesn't fit
> *best... a 2 way easier to tune.*
> 
> just my 2 cts,
> 
> What car do you have, my Yaris is not the widest ...
> 
> 
> 
> .




1st generation S10 Blazer.... quite narrow with no provisions in the door (although I fitted them 6.5-7") and dash spaces for 4x6" pointing straight up.... been there & done that to death. 2-way isn't bad, but with the narrow cabin the driver's side mid takes a hit so keeping from 500 & down worked best. 

As of now I've got some CD18RE mids to put down there, but am going to limit their bandwidth. I have to be careful in what to choose for the doors since they're quite shallow. I think these will work good for that. Up top, the dash is shallow & width not very good. Small temporary tupperware pods worked okay, but left a lot to desire in aesthetics if put in permanently. 

So far I haven't tried kicks, but space down there is limited as well so the driver will have to sit into the metal behind kick panel off-axis. A 3sixty.3 should be here soon so I will have much to adjust with. The question is where to place the drivers optimally first so tweaking will be most effective and minimal at best.

The other idea is to get another dang vehicle!


----------



## derickveliz

Bayboy said:


> 1st generation S10 Blazer....
> The other idea is to get another dang vehicle!


*Do you have a build log?* I have some ideas for you... besides a new car!

(so we don't hack this thread)

.


----------



## subwoofery

Bayboy said:


> Ughhh... this is getting hard to keep up with. Of course there is a sacrifice in whatever you opt for, but in general which is worse/best if doing a 3-way front stage? I definitely don't have a wide cabin like most so I guess I'm screwed.


Andy Wehmeyer advises against midrange in kicks - Scott Buwalda's winning carS have midrange installed high. 
Mark Elderidge always recommended to lower PLD in midbass frequencies 

I know there's no real rule in car audio but if I had the choice, it would be kick/firewall midbass & midrange+tweeters high for a 3-way system

Kelvin


----------



## Bayboy

Nahh.... I've been so random with what I've tried so I have no log. I'm dwindling down to what I want to run even though I've changed quite a bit in the past few months. :laugh:

Right now I'm thinking two 4 channel amps and staying away from gobs of power since I find myself being satisfied with the level the Peerless 830876 does sealed. If I want more I can just go ported. 

Anyways, inbox me with your suggestions...


----------



## Bayboy

derickveliz said:


> *Do you have a build log?* I have some ideas for you... besides a new car!
> 
> (so we don't hack this thread)
> 
> .




Oops... meant pm me... on mobile so it's hard to switch back & forth between email and pm. :laugh:


----------



## quality_sound

I'm a door fan. You'll never get the same width and stage depth from kicks or pillars that you will with doors. If you want a razor sharp image you'll have to do some angling, but I'll trade that for width every time. It's more immersive IMO.


----------



## derickveliz

.
All these comments are subject to car specific, personal taste and tuning, 

if It was me I would go with either what I like the way it looks, or *trial and error and give it a try to all possibilities* 

and then decide what fits your needs better.


.


----------



## claytonzmvox

Great topico.é read many good reviews. I'm having a serious problem to hit the stage of my system and I am thinking that is the position of midrange and tweeter in my car.










The speakers are no longer the same. Now use scanspeak tweeter and midrange. Note that the left speakers are very straight and this causes some reflection in the glass, making it impossible (my understanding) the centralization of the soundstage. Can anyone help me by passing some information?

Use TA with one player and the sound is very artificial when I use too much. Would otherwise attempting to adjust without having to redo my pillars.?


----------



## derickveliz

claytonzmvox said:


> Great topico.é read many good reviews. I'm having a serious problem to hit the stage of my system and I am thinking that is the position of midrange and tweeter in my car.Can anyone help me by passing some information?
> 
> Use TA with one player and the sound is very artificial when I use too much. Would otherwise attempting to adjust without having to redo my pillars.?


What do you hear when you play the 7 drum track?

1.-are all 7 drums aligned and equally separated?

2.-how far from you or how close they are?

Give it a try!

3.-how it compares to this drawing:




.


----------



## claytonzmvox

Not watched the drums. I'll put the track and then post results. But I can assure you the image that has visible defects'' ``. I can not hit the stage. I can guarantee that phase of the speakers is impeccable. I will review all the installation again reveras phases and measure the distance between speakers and get d scratch. Later post results!!


----------



## derickveliz

At some point I even had them like this... it was awful and painful for my ears




.


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## claytonzmvox

The image number 4 is considered wrong? 7 beats all have to be equal, as shown in Figure # 1


----------



## derickveliz

claytonzmvox said:


> Not watched the drums. I'll put the track and then post results. But I can assure you the image that has visible defects'' ``. I can not hit the stage. I can guarantee that phase of the speakers is impeccable. I will review all the installation again reveras phases and measure the distance between speakers and get d scratch. Later post results!!


*Don't worry about the results,* I'm trying to figure out your issues and give you an explanation.

and also if you can also report from an elevation point of view:




.


----------



## derickveliz

claytonzmvox said:


> The image number 4 is considered wrong? 7 beats all have to be equal, as shown in Figure # 1


Don't worry they are all wrong at some point, just perform the exercise and report back, this probably would help other members


.


----------



## derickveliz

This is my representation as of today... 





.


----------



## claytonzmvox

Post, my experiences tomorrow after waking up because here are almost 2 am and I'm falling asleep. Thank you friend derickveliz,


----------



## Fricasseekid

This thread has really taken off!

Thanks for all the excellent advice and expertise gents.


----------



## Fricasseekid

When auditioning different locations for my mid via the towel method. What tuning is necessary for each different location other than T/A?


----------



## Bayboy

That would be hard to be complete with since a solid enclosure makes a difference as well as that will effect xover points and EQ. The main thing I look for in mock ups is on/off-axis performance and the ability to stage. If it's apparently weaker from the start then that location is seen as less than stellar and vice-versa. Other than that I wouldn't worry too much about eq'ing. Just a high enough xover point to get enough volume without damaging the driver. 


This reminds me of the temp pods I did with a pair of RS75-4. The amount of difference the pod made was entirely audible. Even with the little driver not secured to the baffle tightly lessened it's midrange performance. When secured it was hard to believe how rich they sounded for such a small driver. Too bad their depth and my shallow pillars was a bad match.


----------



## Wy2quiet

Ok so...the door idea...did you mean the top of the doors? The drivers side would need quite a bit of work to get on axis, but it can be done...The problem there is, the equation for PLD is so large since the left speaker is essentially on your ear, and the right is so far away. I would think that is more hassle than anything else, considering we are talking about an extra half a foot of stage width. I would probably prefer a rock solid image than wandering stage from response differences. That's just IMO.


----------



## quality_sound

Fricasseekid said:


> When auditioning different locations for my mid via the towel method. What tuning is necessary for each different location other than T/A?


I don't even TA when I'm trying new positions because I need to see what each location does for intensity as well and altering the TA can change your perception of the intensity.


----------



## quality_sound

Wy2quiet said:


> Ok so...the door idea...did you mean the top of the doors? The drivers side would need quite a bit of work to get on axis, but it can be done...The problem there is, the equation for PLD is so large since the left speaker is essentially on your ear, and the right is so far away. I would think that is more hassle than anything else, considering we are talking about an extra half a foot of stage width. I would probably prefer a rock solid image than wandering stage from response differences. That's just IMO.


You don't NEED to be on axis. Off axis will dramatically widen the stage (with the QSD216s in my Golf in the OEM location, only rough TA and NO eq, the stage was easily outside the mirrors. Yes it collapsed to the right a bit and it wandered but both of those issues can be fixed with EQ. With the illusions the stage a bit narrower but also more focused. 

IME, door mounts with drivers angled some, but not totally on axis, absolutely kills.


----------



## Wy2quiet

quality_sound said:


> You don't NEED to be on axis. Off axis will dramatically widen the stage (with the QSD216s in my Golf in the OEM location, only rough TA and NO eq, the stage was easily outside the mirrors. Yes it collapsed to the right a bit and it wandered but both of those issues can be fixed with EQ. With the illusions the stage a bit narrower but also more focused.
> 
> IME, door mounts with drivers angled some, but not totally on axis, absolutely kills.


Are you trying to say you are against on-axis? I don't understand...lost....to me the ability to stage accurately is the most important part. When I am listening to a song and I hear Norah Jone's voice moving a few inches left and right depending on the range she is singing in, that drives me batty.


----------



## claytonzmvox

When you say Norah sings shifting focus you mean that it is good? Or the lack of precision in his voice annoys you? In my case the female voices are easier to hit as the male voice is hard and the average bass tend always to the left side.

Via celular!!!!!!


----------



## Fricasseekid

Norah Jones is a female.


----------



## quality_sound

Wy2quiet said:


> Are you trying to say you are against on-axis? I don't understand...lost....to me the ability to stage accurately is the most important part. When I am listening to a song and I hear Norah Jone's voice moving a few inches left and right depending on the range she is singing in, that drives me batty.


No, I like on axis but you don't NEED to be on axis. If you're going to be on axis then you have to have the drivers as wide as possible or you'll have a stage that's only as wide as they are. Take the same drivers in the same locations and as you move them more off axis the stage will widen. There is a sweet spot where you have the widest stage and great focus and tonality. That's what you're shooting for. 

Now, the midbass driver in a 3-way front stage doesn't ever really need to be on axis since everything under about 250hz isn't really localizable so you'd focus on the mid and tweeter angles and then, if at all, you'll play with the midbass angle.

If you're getting a lot of wandering that almost always an imbalance in the freq response from one side to the the other.


----------



## claytonzmvox

Yes, I know that Norah is a woman. I will try to get parts for and leave midbasses to the end. performed the measurement in centimeters and put on TA. But I had to adjust a point much higher than that measured speakers to my head. could improve the outcome but is far from a stage 100% focused and alive as it was before replacing the stereo amp. used arc audio ks300.4 and now I use a Genesis 4channel.

Via celular!!!!!!


----------



## derickveliz

claytonzmvox said:


> performed the measurement in centimeters and put on TA. But I had to adjust a point much higher than that measured speakers to my head.


I don't know but in my case I don't go with physical measurements and then dial in HU, it just doesn't work for me. My ears tell me how much TA.

Try with a solid track that you know the center is centered.
Start isolating Mids and set TA at 0 (zero) delay for both; then increase delay on Left Mid until is centered, 
you should be able to hear/feel the movement.


.


----------



## claytonzmvox

you think this the best way? try this technique. Put the results later.

Via celular!!!!!!


----------



## derickveliz

claytonzmvox said:


> you think this the best way? try this technique. Put the results later.
> 
> Via celular!!!!!!


Probably not the best way, but helps me locate that "center image" that we are looking for.


.


----------



## HiloDB1

papasin said:


> I liked the dash pods badfish had last year before he changed his set up due to the 2013 MECA rules.


Very nice. What did he use to cover those? And any pics of them from outside of the vehicle through the windshield?


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> I don't know but in my case I don't go with physical measurements and then dial in HU, it just doesn't work for me. My ears tell me how much TA.
> 
> Try with a solid track that you know the center is centered.
> Start isolating Mids and set TA at 0 (zero) delay for both; then increase delay on Left Mid until is centered,
> you should be able to hear/feel the movement.
> 
> 
> .


If by measuring, setting T/A doesn't work - you either have a reflection somewhere, levels are not set correctly or measurements weren't taken correctly... 
I get the right setting almost perfectly everytime I set delta T/A - usually do it by ear for parallel T/A (due to Xover phase) 

Kelvin


----------



## Fricasseekid

Delta and parallel T/A? 

What's the difference?


----------



## n_olympios

derickveliz said:


> (when you tell somebody else also sounds Cool) *"Yeah I have a 3 way!"*


I hadn't thought of it that way. In that case, *I've had several 3ways in the past*.


----------



## subwoofery

Fricasseekid said:


> Delta and parallel T/A?
> 
> What's the difference?


--Werewolf-- 


> 1. Parallel - time alignment for drivers on the same channel (example, alignment of midrange and midbass). Any adjustment to a driver would be identical for both stereo channels. This is the alignment that would benefit a center seating position ... aligning subs to front stage, for example.
> 
> 2. Delta - time alignment between channels. L/R channels aligned differently to accomodate non-central seating positions. Of course this is the more controversial one ...


Kelvin


----------



## claytonzmvox

ahhhh, I forgot to mention that I switched amplifiers, the stereo is a four channel genensis and midbass and subwoofer are playing with a DLS A7.
** Sorry to detract from the topic describing my difficulties on adjustments. I thought appropriate because the positioning of the speakers also influences the time alignment settings


----------



## Lou

Fricasseekid said:


> This is the plan. I want to build pods that will rest on the dash right up against the pillars and point on axis. First off glassing my pillars only to have to redo them a dozen times cause I don't like the sound doesn't seem fun. Secondly the pods seem like they would be easier to get on axis than the pillars.
> 
> The only problem I have is figuring how big the pods need to be to get the fr89s to extend low.
> 
> Can you model midrange drivers in WinISD like woofers?


build some different types of pods that you could use for testing and find wich one you like the best and just build from there,i know it takes a little longer to do so but its well worth it when all is said and done,


----------



## 94VG30DE

Back to the top with a question: 
How are you guys creating an enclosure in your a-pillars? I have mine (Aura Whisper, large vented pole in rear center) shoved so deep into the corner that part of the "basket" is touching the a-pillar metal. Short of hammering everything out of the way, do you guys have a method for sealing the a-pillar trim to the pillar metal?


----------



## quietfly

94VG30DE said:


> Back to the top with a question:
> How are you guys creating an enclosure in your a-pillars? I have mine (Aura Whisper, large vented pole in rear center) shoved so deep into the corner that part of the "basket" is touching the a-pillar metal. Short of hammering everything out of the way, do you guys have a method for sealing the a-pillar trim to the pillar metal?


pictures to clarify?


----------



## Lorin

My a pillar is venting down into the dash, so I havent had a "need" to seal the trim to the metal. Most mids arent hitting so hard (or moving so much air) as to need to worry overly much about sealing to that end. I did use modeling clay and cld to deaden the plastic, etc., considerably. Also put a fair amount of bondo and fiberglass in and around the pod to further deaden.


----------



## GlasSman

94VG30DE said:


> Back to the top with a question:
> How are you guys creating an enclosure in your a-pillars? I have mine (Aura Whisper, large vented pole in rear center) shoved so deep into the corner that part of the "basket" is touching the a-pillar metal. Short of hammering everything out of the way, do you guys have a method for sealing the a-pillar trim to the pillar metal?


If you really need to utilize the space in the A-pillar you want to open it up a bit and mount the speaker onto the pillar via a baffle. Use clay/wood to fill any holes.

Then worry about making it look pretty once it sounds good.

This is of course the reason I shyed away from placing any midrange drivers in the A-Pillars since for me it depends on the vehicle and how much room you have to work with.


----------



## HondAudio

papasin said:


> I liked the dash pods badfish had last year before he changed his set up due to the 2013 MECA rules.


I know I'm opening the veritable can-of-worms here, but is it OK to have the tweeters "inboard" of the midranges [i.e. closer to the center of the car], as long as they're forward of the midranges [i.e. farther towards the front of the car]? I've always thought that tweeters should be as far apart as possible, in order to help make the soundstage as wide as possible.

_Yes, I know every set of speakers and every install is different,_ but the setup I'm working on right now puts the tweeters in the far, forward, and outside corners of the dashboard/windshield, firing towards the dome light, with the midranges firing straight up and "under" them. 

If I have the flexibility to move the tweeters around, it might make the actual installation a little easier for me - spacing is very tight in the area I'm working, and I'm measuring with absolute precision to make everything fit right :surprised:


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## claydo

From my limited experience, your stage width is more restricted by the mids, than tweets. I know it can vary, but when running speakers on axis, the center point of the mids, is ususally the bounderies of the stage.


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## SPLEclipse

HondAudio said:


> I know I'm opening the veritable can-of-worms here, but is it OK to have the tweeters "inboard" of the midranges [i.e. closer to the center of the car], as long as they're forward of the midranges [i.e. farther towards the front of the car]?


The tweets in my car are both inward on the width AND depth compared to my mid, which is as wide as I can get it. Before I built the dash I played with positioning and this gave me a wider stage than having them the other way around. Given the choice I would rather have them on the same plane(s) as the mid, but trying to fit an 8" MB, 5.25 mid, and 4" tweet on each corner of the dash is really damn hard, lol. Fortunately my mids (TB 704d) can play plenty high with no problems, so that might be part of the reason.


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## n_olympios

It is far more important for mids to be further apart than for tweeters.


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## mtuhuskyfan

Badfish's pods look great, I want to do similar in my Focus using FR88EX and my CSS LD25X. I can't think of a way to do it better as I don't want to do kicks. Other thought is to mount them in the dash like bertholemey's and keep my tweeters as is.


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## Fricasseekid

Good luck! Those Founteks have a huge magnet for a 3" driver.


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## papasin

Fricasseekid said:


> Good luck! Those Founteks have a huge magnet for a 3" driver.


Difficult, but not impossible. The AP XR3M similarly has a ginormous magnet for a 3, but in the right a-pillars and with the help of the right installer, can be done .


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## Fricasseekid

Those are such beautiful drivers! Great pillars man!


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## papasin

Fricasseekid said:


> Those are such beautiful drivers! Great pillars man!


Those are my first 3s, and will probably never let them go. I have used a few others since but these will always have a special place.

As for the pillars, credit goes to jtaudioacc for the phenomenal wrapping and finish, who also did my Civic a few posts back, as well as badfish's dash pods. See a pattern .


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## Darth SQ

Those look like Odyssey A-pillars. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## papasin

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Those look like Odyssey A-pillars.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Why yes they are! If I ever get bored with them, I know who to sell them to.


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## [email protected]

You should NEVER, EVER cut the metal on a pillar. EVER. No amount of sonic nirvana is worth the car crushing you to death if you ever have a roll over situation....


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## papasin

[email protected] said:


> You should NEVER, EVER cut the metal on a pillar. EVER. No amount of sonic nirvana is worth the car crushing you to death if you ever have a roll over situation....


I agree. Did I or someone else suggest as such?


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## HondAudio

SPLEclipse said:


> The tweets in my car are both inward on the width AND depth compared to my mid, which is as wide as I can get it. Before I built the dash I played with positioning and this gave me a wider stage than having them the other way around. Given the choice I would rather have them on the same plane(s) as the mid, but trying to fit an 8" MB, 5.25 mid, and 4" tweet on each corner of the dash is really damn hard, lol. Fortunately my mids (TB 704d) can play plenty high with no problems, so that might be part of the reason.


The scenario I'm talking about would have my mids firing straight up from the ends of the dash, with the tweeters just barely hanging over them and firing across the mids and upwards at about 45 degrees towards the center of the car.


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## claydo

I meant to post a pic of mine here a long time ago, never did.....oh well, maybe it'll bring life back to a great thread. Mine aren't really dash, or a-pillar.......but a little different, maybe sail-pods......









Call them what you will, but I love em! They gave me a sealed enclosure, fairly on axis, and are aimable with shims. They also tuck in nicely with the doors closed.....


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## [email protected]

claydo said:


> I meant to post a pic of mine here a long time ago, never did.....oh well, maybe it'll bring life back to a great thread. Mine aren't really dash, or a-pillar.......but a little different, maybe sail-pods......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Call them what you will, but I love em! They gave me a sealed enclosure, fairly on axis, and are aimable with shims. They also tuck in nicely with the doors closed.....


Did you play with other locations and found that to be optimal, or did you go with that off the bat?


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## Kevin K

Can you post a couple of more close up pictures?
With door open too?
Thanks.


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## claydo

[email protected] said:


> Did you play with other locations and found that to be optimal, or did you go with that off the bat?


I played with dash pods for a while, but had trouble with aesthetics. No matter what I did I couldn't get them to look satisfactory. I had, in the past mounted tweets this way to get on axis, and it came to me.......hmmm, I wonder if?


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## claydo

Here ya go Kevin.....


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## BlackHHR

[email protected] said:


> You should NEVER, EVER cut the metal on a pillar. EVER. No amount of sonic nirvana is worth the car crushing you to death if you ever have a roll over situation....


That's right ..... do not cut the flipping a-pillar supports ......


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## Kevin K

Thanks for posting, that is really extreme there. 
Good work.





claydo said:


> Here ya go Kevin.....


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## claydo

Extreme, nah, meca calls it "modified"......
And thanks!


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## BlackHHR

Claydo - what car is that ( Cobalt SS) ? 
My steering wheel looks identical , but my dash is slightly different ..
Here are my A-Pillars ..


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## claydo

We have a winner! Its an 09 cobalt SS.


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## claydo

Black, I was under the impression that they are similar......but I've never sat in one, and your pics no worky......


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## BlackHHR

claydo said:


> We have a winner! Its an 09 cobalt SS.


With the position of the tweeter , the stage must be stupid wide . It has the potential to be stupid wide , wow !!! 
If it works , run with it .. 
Had to upgrade the audio system to drown out the super charger (blower) whine ? 
Very nice little cars ...


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## BlackHHR

claydo said:


> Black, I was under the impression that they are similar......but I've never sat in one, and your pics no worky......


Hmmm, working for me , but I am sitting at my desk top ... 
Lets try and do something different ..


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## claydo

Its pretty wide, but the mid is what dictates the width, therefore I wish I'd have done them with the tweets to the inside.......the width is from phase plug to phase plug of the mids. Actually, no blower whine here, just good ol Turbo whistle baby, 21 psi, ftw!


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## claydo

There we go,yup a lil different, more than I thought. I knew they shared a chassis, but evidently the interiors are pretty different.


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## BlackHHR

claydo said:


> There we go,yup a lil different, more than I thought. I knew they shared a chassis, but evidently the interiors are pretty different.


Now back to the kick panel or A-Pillar . Back in the day we used kick panels to equalize the path lengths. We did not have TA as we do today . So we had to work with what we had . Using the kick panel and point source the tweeter was thought to be the trick .The problem we had was the leg would block the dispersion of the tweeter . We had limitations on the equipment available on the market to compensate for speaker placement . Kick panels where sort of a copy cat of what some body else did . We got 5 points for kick panels so we built them . PPI made a phase shift gizmo that we ran the front channels through . It could move the center image around and we tried that for a while .Nick Wynngate introduced me to that piece . He was tuning a car belonging to Mickey Brones at a show in Perry GA (15 years ago ) 
The A-Pillar is working right now with the time alignment equipment. So if it works , then that is what we need to do ... 
Recently I have been introduced to the A-Pillar mounted driver . It works , and works very well with time alignment ... 
Now the cars 
Yes vast difference . 
But we share a steering wheel , LMAO .
If you make it to the finals in AL , look us up . Shoot us a pm the week before , and I will give you my cell number . It is always a good thing to put a face with the user names . Just give me a call ...
Greg


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## Kevin K

Greg, 
What class are you in?


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## claydo

Finals, nah, but I'm gonna try to make Erin's (bikinpunk) meet down that ways, in Nov.


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## BlackHHR

Kevin K said:


> Greg,
> What class are you in?


We are not in any class ...... yet


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## Darth SQ

BlackHHR said:


> Now back to the kick panel or A-Pillar . Back in the day we used kick panels to equalize the path lengths. We did not have TA as we do today . So we had to work with what we had . Using the kick panel and point source the tweeter was thought to be the trick .The problem we had was the leg would block the dispersion of the tweeter . We had limitations on the equipment available on the market to compensate for speaker placement . Kick panels where sort of a copy cat of what some body else did . We got 5 points for kick panels so we built them . PPI made a phase shift gizmo that we ran the front channels through . It could move the center image around and we tried that for a while .Nick Wynngate introduced me to that piece . He was tuning a car belonging to Mickey Brones at a show in Perry GA (15 years ago )
> The A-Pillar is working right now with the time alignment equipment. So if it works , then that is what we need to do ...
> Recently I have been introduced to the A-Pillar mounted driver . It works , and works very well with time alignment ...
> Now the cars
> Yes vast difference .
> But we share a steering wheel , LMAO .
> If you make it to the finals in AL , look us up . Shoot us a pm the week before , and I will give you my cell number . It is always a good thing to put a face with the user names . Just give me a call ...
> Greg


Fascinating read; thanks for posting it. :thumbsup:
Did you ever get the PPI psc-221 Phase Shifter to work the way you wanted it to?
How well did it really do?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## BlackHHR

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Fascinating read; thanks for posting it. :thumbsup:
> Did you ever get the PPI psc-221 Phase Shifter to work the way you wanted it to?
> How well did it really do?
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Well , to a point . It had a right and left control as you are completely aware of .
But anything you did to the drivers side , you paid for it in the passenger side . 
It was explained to me as this , use it like salt and pepper . Too much and you ruin dinner . 
I kept it I my car for about 3 or 4 months , helped some . The problem with the kick panels in my car (2004 Grand AM GT ) was the dash and center console . So kick panels for that car was not ideal . The 221 was not designed to compensate for my choice of speaker placement . 
Greg


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## samual

If you get a professional installion, A pillar instalationl win hand down. However, given unproper installation a pillar installation could be worse than dash installation.


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## claydo

Ok, no reasoning to go along with your statements?


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## The Reverend

I'm thinking of building some dash pods for my Aurasound Whispers in my Miata. They are currently in the doors and I'd like to try them on-axis. My A-pillars are likely way too small to glass something into them, so I'm very interested in the "dash-pod" sort of enclosure. 

How feasible/worthwhile would it be to try this? I have "enough" processing for now (PRS80) and will add a miniDSP at some point. Figuring out when it's 'good enough' for a ragtop roadster is the trick


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