# 2011 Sienna SE with a touch of Old School



## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

After eight years of driving with stock radios, I am finally taking the plunge back into mobile audio. Too many hours are spent driving back and forth to work, trips, errands, etc. to not enjoy time behind the wheel. The vehicle is a 2011, Toyota Sienna SE and deserves a worthy setup.

The primary focus is on sound quality, but to not break the bank doing so. To accomplish this, I will use the stock radio and recycle equipment from previous installs where it makes sense. New items will be of high quality, but not necessarily name brand (except for main amplifier). Recycled items will be gone through, overhauled and modified as necessary to reach the end goal.

Secondary focus is to maintain the stock look and feel of the vehicle. The only exception to this will be the final A-pillar pods for the midrange and tweeters. Since they play the largest part in imaging they will be far from stock, but the fit and finish will blend as much as possible with the factory materials and look.

Equipment:
Signal: 
Head Unit: Stock radio (modified see below)
Preamp: Rockford Fosgate PA-1HD (modified see below)

Amplifiers:
Front Soundstage: Rockford Fosgate P400x4
Rear Fill: Rockford Fosgate 260sd Series1
Subwoofer: Alpine MRV-T500

Speakers:
Tweeters: Dayton ND20FA-6, ¾” silk dome
Midrange: Dayton RS100-4, 4” aluminum cone
Midbass: Peerless SLS, 6.5”
Subwoofer: Dayton RSS265HO-4, 10” aluminum cone
Rear Fill: Polk 6501, 6.5” component set


Head Unit – The choice to use the stock radio was made pretty easy since it has many features I really like. Also, swapping it out with an aftermarket unit and all adapters to make it work like it does now (steering wheel controls, Bluetooth, Apple control, Sirius, etc.), would double my budget. The factory radio is made by Pioneer and the guts are of high quality.

The audio signal was tapped from the main board before the TDA7833 chip amp. The signal reaches a max of 0.475mV just before clipping and has a 3.5k Ohm output impedance. Due to the high output impedance of the signal, a preamp of sorts will be needed to stiffen it. To simplify the mods, I only tapped the front Left and Right channels leaving fader duties to the preamp. Well shielded cables run the signal out the back of the unit to the preamp.

Preamp – The RF PA-1HD is a great unit and has the features I want/need for this project. The two things I really wanted were convenient Bass, Mid and Treble controls, as well as a Fader. The factor HU does not have Mid control and requires you to use a combination of buttons and knobs to alter Bass and Treble – every time.

Its input impedance of 20k Ohms is a little too low for the signal from the head unit, so I changed the input load resistor from 20k to 100k and swapped the LM833 primary gain opamp with an OPA2134. The FET input of the OPA2134 works very well with the weaker HU signal.

All of the original, main potentiometers (Vol, Fader, Bass, Mid and Treble) were completely shot and needed replacement. Not being able to find replacements, I had to totally change how the pots mount and connect to the board. Not a big issue, but a necessity.

The center frequency of the Bass knob, was changed from 45Hz to 25Hz to help bring up the very bottom end as needed. The Mid center frequency will be altered as well once the speakers and amp are installed and the frequency that makes the most sense is determined. My hope is that the original 180Hz will suffice.

More to come,
Steve


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

love the work so far, I still have a pa1hd though its all original and does work flawlessly, needs a respray though. what is the center frequency of the high eq control?


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Thanks for the kind words. The manual says 20kHz, but I remember testing it at 12.5kHz. The same upper freq as on the current amp 'eq' controls.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Subscribed


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Here is a pic of the radio's main board (bottom assembly) with yellow arrows indicating the solder points to use to pull the audio signal. The yellow rectangle is around a group of capacitors located between the Vol/Tone control chip and the TDA7388 chip amp. This section of board is located in the rear left portion just in front of the chip amp.

Each channel has two SMT capacitors in line - a small and large one. The two larger capacitors on the outside are the Front Left and Right. The two inner ones are the Rear Left and Right. I chose to solder to the larger capacitors as it is much easier than the smaller ones, however the side of the larger ones used keeps that capacitor out of the signal path.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

Nice. &#55357;&#56397;&#55357;&#56397;


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## Kriszilla (Jul 1, 2013)

Subscribed because I'm about to completely redo the build in my 13' Sienna next week.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Amplifiers – 
The most notable thing to mention here is the RF P400x4. Being a HUGE fan of the sound quality of the original and HD series Punch amps, I was somewhat concerned of how the new amps would sound. I have been around high end audio for 30 years and I would rank a good Punch amp up there with Rotel when it comes to solid, clean power and sound. I tested the amp as soon as it arrived using a set of my home reference system speakers. WOW. I am totally sold. I would venture to say it may sound better than the older versions. Add to that the features that come with it and you have a winner.

Speakers – 
The tweeters are cheaper units, but have really good reviews for what they are. More focus was put on the midrange and so far, I like the RS100-4 drivers. They dang near drop into PVC fittings perfectly and that is what I used to make small enclosures for testing the crossover and placement.

The only passive crossovers I will need are between the midrange and tweeters. Not having the software and microphone based testing equipment to design my own crossovers and still wanting something of quality, I had to figure something out. Finally, I came across a build for a nice set of bookshelf speakers using these same drivers. The author knew what he was doing and had the same design goal as I – best sound for the least parts count and reasonable price. the build project can be found here (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?38222-My-A7-Project-an-almost-mini-RS100-4-and-ND20FA-6).

Using hot glue, I temporarily mounted the tweeters to the mids in their PVC enclosures and hooked up the finished crossover. They sound great and I do not know how much time, effort and $$ it would take for me accomplish the same results on my own. The components were mounted to a piece of ¼” ply that was well sealed with clear lacquer.

I have many pics and a link to the crossover build, but not enough posts to post them. Please be patient as they will be coming.

The SLS midbass drivers really look the business and I have read many good things about them. As soon as they are installed and tested, I will update. The RSS265HO sub driver is also something to behold. The build quality is top notch and the driver matches the specs very closely. To get something of the same build quality and motor structure from a major brand you would be in the $300 to $400 range, the Dayton was only $117.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Kriszilla - That is awesome!! Can't wait to see what you are dropping in and how it goes. Here is mine currently. 

I am curious as to how/where you are going to mount your sub. The 'jump seat' pocket in back is where I will be putting mine. Since your's is an XLE, my guess is that you have the JBL, 10 speaker setup. How does it sound with the sub in the tail gate?


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

The PA-1 is now finished and working perfectly. I had to drill out the holes in the faceplate to allow room for the mounting hardware of the new pots. The originals mounted to the board and only the shafts came through. After drilling them out, you could see the nuts and washers behind the knobs. To remedy this, I used a spacer made out of a foam mat (Walmart craft section), scissors and a hole punch. 

The first one I made was black and retuned the unit back to its original look. On a whim, I made one out of red foam and liked the look of the red peeking out from behind the knobs (pic below). It really brings out the ‘Rockford Fosgate’ logo. Not only did the spacer cover the hardware, but it also makes the LEDs and the CD/Tape Input switch button sit flush with the face giving it a more modern feel.

Yes, the 30 jumper wires needed to connect the new pots to the board were a little tedious, but well worth the effort. I could not find the center tapped pots as originally used, but I can see/test no degradation in sound quality nor operation in using normal pots.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Test pods for Mids and Tweeters are ready. I have a small 27W/ch amp that I plug into the cig lighter and ipod to test for imaging. Will use towels to hold them in place on the dash while they are repositioned. They sound great in these.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Made some progress this weekend on the actual install. I am nowhere near where I wanted to be, but at least these big jobs are out of the way. 

I was able to mount the midbass drivers in the doors using acrylic cutting boards as baffle material. Since I live where salt gets into everything, I am making it a point to not drill any holes through painted metal. The modded head unit and preamp were also installed. The preamp was much more difficult than anticipated since the front of the pocket is asymmetric in every dimension imaginable. Add to that the fact that the front is a rather rounded off parallelogram that extrudes back to a rectangle. After tons of sanding and trial fitting, it is in the dash. I am ‘ok’ with the look, but may revisit it later. The ABS stock I was using to mount it got pretty hacked up, so I refaced it with black, 1/8” foam craft sheet. It conforms to the pocket well and hides any little gaps, scratches and overcuts. Does anyone have a good technique for cutting out a perfect ½ DIN hole?

There is a gap between the speaker and the inside of the door panel and I believe it is causing door panel vibration, muddiness and some loss of the low end. The stock speakers have a grooved ring topped with foam that seals the door panel to the speaker. It is my belief that this ring not only stops the door panel from vibrating, but also creates an ‘infinite baffle’ type of installation of the door speaker. Without it, the door panel is no longer supported in that location and the back wave from the driver is allowed to cancel some of the front wave. 

My solution is to make a foam plate that is fixed to the speaker baffle and fits just around the outer perimeter of the speaker flange. The foam will be high-density, closed cell EPP. Dense enough to be air (and water) tight, yet still pliable enough to let the thin (yet tall) plastic lip of the door panel dig in and seal. I will post pics once completed.


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## SQLnovice (Jul 22, 2014)

That sienna is looking very nice with the rims. Always loved that mini van. It's coming along very nice. Waiting to see the finish product.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

sskloss said:


> Kriszilla - That is awesome!! Can't wait to see what you are dropping in and how it goes. Here is mine currently.
> 
> I am curious as to how/where you are going to mount your sub. The 'jump seat' pocket in back is where I will be putting mine. Since your's is an XLE, my guess is that you have the JBL, 10 speaker setup. How does it sound with the sub in the tail gate?


Im not a van person but yours looks slick!:surprised:


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Thank you for the kind words. I am a sports car guy, so since I have a family I had to get the best driving / handling people mover out there – and it delivers.

Funny thing about the wheels though, they were actually purchased out of necessity than looks. The first time I went to buy new tires I was shocked to find out that not only was tire selection VERY limited for 19” wheels, but also quite expensive ($1600 for tires only). However, tires for 20” wheels are plentiful and reasonably priced. To keep from recalibrating the speedometer, I dropped from a 50 series to 45 series sidewall. I figured if I am doing it, I might as well do it and went 1.5” more wide as well, but was careful about the offset to maintain the correct spindle loading. All said and done, I purchased new tires AND new wheels all installed for $1800. Next round of tires is $450 or so. The van can now take full advantage of its SE sport suspension, not to mention braking and acceleration have both improved as well. It’s a Win-Win-Win.


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

Subscribed cause you can guess what kind of van I have! 

I was thinking about putting 20's on ours also, but I think my wife LIKES hitting potholes. The drop was from 50 to 45, but I feel like the rims need all the protection they can. 

Just curious, what total size and offset are you running now? 20x8.5 +?? ?

Thank you!


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

sskloss said:


> Thank you for the kind words. I am a sports car guy, so since I have a family I had to get the best driving / handling people mover out there – and it delivers.
> 
> Funny thing about the wheels though, they were actually purchased out of necessity than looks. The first time I went to buy new tires I was shocked to find out that not only was tire selection VERY limited for 19” wheels, but also quite expensive ($1600 for tires only). However, tires for 20” wheels are plentiful and reasonably priced. To keep from recalibrating the speedometer, I dropped from a 50 series to 45 series sidewall. I figured if I am doing it, I might as well do it and went 1.5” more wide as well, but was careful about the offset to maintain the correct spindle loading. All said and done, I purchased new tires AND new wheels all installed for $1800. Next round of tires is $450 or so. The van can now take full advantage of its SE sport suspension, not to mention braking and acceleration have both improved as well. It’s a Win-Win-Win.


1600 for tires!!!! my Tahoe is only like 600! Glad the 20's brought the cost of tires down quite a bit for you as well as helping in the looks/performance department


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

Yup, cost us about $1000 for tires and installation at Costco.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

sienna12 - Let me double check my notes (at home) before answering. I would hate to post false information. I do know that they are 20"x8.5". Should have a 30mm offset as well.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Tires are getting stupid expensive. My Volt's tires cost $700. WTF? Even tires for my Kia Spectra which has bitty steel wheels are like $500. We're talkin' brand names, of course. As a result of this, I tend to only buy tires made in the USA or at least Europe. I will not buy tires for those ridiculous prices made in China or any other Asian country or Mexico. Not because I dislike those countries, but because they made them there for profit margin and aren't passing the savings on to me!


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

sienna12 - The wheels are Drag DR37's: 20" x 8.5" with a 30mm offset. I am running Yokahama Prada Spec 'X' (awesome value of performace/price) tires that are 245x45xR20. I can turn the steering wheel lock to lock without any binding or rubbing. As long as you stay within those dimensions and offset on a Gen 3 Sienna, you should be good to go.

Quick question - is your Sienna an SE? If not, really look into swapping the suspension components (springs, struts and sway-bars). Yes the ride is more stiff, but anyone who has a minivan that I let drive mine are SOLD on the handling improvement. Honestly, it is much more safe than the CE, LE, XLE or Limited suspensions as body roll is kept to a minimum and accuracy (especially at speed) is increased.


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

Thank you very much!

Yes I have an SE also and my wife and I really freaking love the daym thing! It makes everything SOOO much easier with the kids.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Slow progress, but progress none the less...

Knowing that the A-pillar pods will be a rather involved process, I thought it would be a fun (and quick) exercise to see if decent imaging could be obtained by using the dash speaker locations for the mids and tweeters. I made some quick baffles and shot them with some flat black paint. 

Keep in mind that all of the speakers installed so far are still only running off of head unit power – no outboard amplification.

Although the overall sound clarity is now night-and-day improved, the imaging was nowhere near what it was with the 2” full range Logitech speakers. Where before the image was solidly centered and perfectly elevated (mid windshield vertically), it is now pulled apart and lowered to where the sound seems to emanate from the top surface of the dash. There is also a left bias now putting the image half way between the left A-pillar and the dash center. I double checked polarity on all 6 drivers up front and even tried reversing them in pairs to see if it would help. All efforts made it worse. I couldn’t figure out why this was happening. I know I converted from a point-source, ‘full-range’ driver to two separate drivers, but does it make THAT much difference?

On the drive in to work this morning I realized that there were two other big differences with the new drivers. First, the speaker used to sit down inside the dash by ¾” under the grille. Secondly, the stock grille was a solid piece of plastic that only had a 2.5” hole, surrounded by a ½” thick ring protruding down, centered directly over the speaker. These two things combined added a level of directivity to the sound that was allowed to radiate through it. To test the theory I placed a fleece blanket between the A-pillar and the midrange. I bunched the blanket up so that it would capture most sound radiating toward the A-pillar and the nearest front seat – kind of a ‘C’ shape with the peak being in the middle of the curve. HUGE difference and the imaging was back to where it needed to be. Now, I will try using some 4” PVC rings sliced at an angle and covered in fleece to replicate the effect.

My goal is to get the imaging and overall sound maximized using the worst amp available before the amp and subs are installed. It can only get better.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Some reading this may say "Using a DSP would solve all of his problems." I have to say I am being a stubborn old man about it and want to achieve great SQ without the use of processors.


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

I personally do not have the skill set or tools needed to tune and experiment like you are able too, so I plan on buying an MS-8 to so the heavy lifting for me.

BUT, if I'm able to help out with a "properish" install, I'm in. I'm on the ropes of installing the tweeter in the stock location, sail panels, or a sphere/pod as in this thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...cussion/65061-improve-your-soundstage-$2.html

And THEN, I got to throwing around the idea of putting a small center channel in the stock location above the small display our cars come with as shown here in step 7:

AlexApps.Net


I have my old MBQ 218.16 waiting to be installed along with a JL XD 400/4 for my front stage, and Sundown SAZ 1200 for my sub. (Amps bought used to keep costs down). I would like to make some sort of sub box that will fit in the 8th seat storage area, and mount the amps under the seat. I saw someone install an amp behind the glove box, so I was thinking of putting the MS-8 there if I run out of room.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

It looks like the dash locations will be a no-go. The mids and tweets are too close to the junction of three surfaces and to make it worse, they are firing into one of them. There seems to be too many reflections to tame or compensate for. Using the towels did create a more coherent center image, however that image isn’t very stable and gets quickly pulled apart when you move your head towards the centerline of the car. Looks like I will have to use the pods after all to achieve the imaging I am after.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

The dash locations may work after all. I cut some foam wedges from 3” stock and placed them between the drivers and the junction of the windshield, dash and A-pillar. The image is quite solid and centered well. Now, I need to see how small I can get them and still have the same effect. Once done, I will make permanent ones from FG insulation backed with carpet (pile facing out), then covered in grill cloth. The plates the drivers are mounted too will be covered in deadener, wrapped in vinyl and fitted with a grill.

Using FG insulation and carpet, I should be able to make them more thin. The 3” foam does not absorb as well as the other two combined (or separate for that matter). The sound absorption properties of materials is very interesting and it has been surprising to me as what works best for what type of application.


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

I am definitely not the most knowledgeable, but have you thought about trying to run your setup active--at least for test purposes? That passive x-over is for a much different purpose even though it uses the same drivers.

If the foam works though, great!

Thanks for sharing--your electronic mods are fascinating!


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

honfatboy – I have considered going active. Since I don’t have the room for the additional amp and don’t want to spend that much more $$ on the project, I’d rather not find that it works great then have to downgrade to the permanent install. The passive crossover is great for the role it is playing and really does sound good. I have a feeling that some of my issues are due to the extra coil on the SLS’s and cap I put in front of the mid/high passive crossover while still on 2ch radio power. Once I drop in the P400x4 for the front soundstage, I may have worried for not.


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

Here is an interesting place this guy mounted his amp in his sienna. Maybe a way to add some more equipment if you find it for cheap enough. 

2011 Sienna Stereo Mods


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Now that I have some pretty good corner absorption blocks and the speakers are breaking in, the soundstage is really coming together. Progress on getting the amp mounted behind the glove box is slower than expected. Due to where I live, I do not want to pierce any painted metal on the car – especially if that metal is exposed to the elements in any way. Having to compensate for temps that can reach -40F coupled with a high salt environment is a somewhat fun challenge.

That said, I have found that I have a big, yet narrow, spike centered at 2600Hz region which ramps up/down over 300hz or so. The spike does not show up when running a pink noise test, but during sweeps it is very apparent. The sound level (by ear) at least doubles if not more when this range is swept across. I notice it mostly with certain vocals and electric guitars. When a singer holds that particular note for more than half a second, the sound is shrill and piercing. The narrowness of the spike gives me the feeling that it may be due to a resonance mode, however it could also be the weak amp fighting the passive crossover/driver combination. If it is a resonance mode, then 2600Hz correlates to right at 5” and could be the baffle the speakers are mounted to, the distance the speaker is from the reflection point on the windshield and/or any number of things. The chase is on.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

sienna12 - I do like that location. I considered it, but not sure if there is enough room to mount the amp 'upside down' so I can adjust it through an access hole the same way he did. If there is enough room, that is where it will go.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Before mounting the P400x4, I wanted to get an idea as to what the starting crossover and level settings should be. Where it will be mounted, I may have to remove the glove box to make any adjustments. I have a small 27w/ch amp mounted under an older Coustic XM-3e I use for testing, so I hooked it up. This allows me to now listen through the new RCA outputs and the PA-1 preamp. Wow, what a difference!

The SLSs in the doors are on two channels and the mids/tweets (and their passive XO) on the other two. The 2600Hz spike is now gone. I found that the midbass drivers in the doors were playing much louder than the mid/tweets and being able to adjust the two has brought my soundstage up to mid windshield as it should be. With the radio bass/treble settings now flat, I can use the PA-1 for 3-band EQ settings.

The difference in audio quality is incredible. The chip amp in the radio just doesn’t have a high enough damping factor to deal with all the back EMF from the larger driver motors and passive crossover components. Much of the smearing has been cleaned up and the ringing at certain frequencies eliminated creating a much more solid center image than before. This is just the motivation I needed to get the big amps dropped in!


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

What's you opinion on the Peerless SLS's so far?


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Now that they have broken in, I really like them. I have used Polks and ScanSpeak in the past, but those were in a two-way setup crossed over in the 2.5kHz region and not really meant for lower midbass duty. The SLS’s play very low and stay clean while doing it. I am not using a sub at the moment and if I was told I couldn’t ever use one, I wouldn’t be too upset about it.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

I have always suspected that the backwave from the dash speakers were resonating the dash a bit. The thin, plastic duct work for the air vents are located within a couple inches of the back of the midrange drivers and could be picking up sound and making it worse. As a test, I removed the mid/tweeter speaker plates and stuffed the dashboard cavity below the drivers with 5” thick fiberglass insulation (paper side down). The FG is packed in as tight as I could fit and still leave room for the drivers. I could have used polyfill, however I find thick fiberglass works much better in absorbing the backwave energy from drivers. If you do this, please wear appropriate clothing and gauntlet style gloves to protect your skin.

The soundstage is now deeper and vocals are much more clear. Where sounds like live crowds used to be a little hollow-ish sounding and muddy, they now come through with a clarity to where you can hear individual people up front. A very worthwhile mod if you have the time and materials. Still debating whether it is worth building small enclosures, but that will be for another time.

I finally bit the bullet and scheduled the day off on Friday to install the big amps. The testing I have done with the small one gave me the push I needed to get going on it.


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

Looking forward to the results!


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

I have had a chance to let everything break in and settle. Although I have yet to put the sub in (Thanksgiving holiday project), I will say that I could not be happier. The SLS’s provide enough low end to keep me satisfied and they blend in with the mids and tweeters in the dash well. After break in, the sound stage has really come to life and allowed me to do away with the dash baffles. The center image is now only slightly left of center, but well within the realm of livable. Even though the baffles helped center the imaging, they also narrowed it and gave it a pinch in the 2kHz-5kHz region. Now the stage is at (if not slightly beyond) the A pillars on either side which, in a vehicle that large is impressive.

Using the stock head unit turned out to be a great idea since it not only looks stealthy & stock, but everything works as it should. I am also quite impressed with the sound quality of the stock unit. Really taking a good listen at night to my reference material, I have yet to hear any anomalies or short comings.

I think the 4” mids and budget tweets work very well together – especially with the crossover designed for them by ‘BOBinGA’ on HTGuide.com. Thank you very much for that Sir. They do not bring attention to themselves at all, but rather simply disappear. Listening to my music library has not brought out any squeals or quirks that would bring my attention in their direction. The tweeters are smooth and only slightly metallic if I boost the treble on the PA-1 too much. They, for the price, have impressed me the most. Hesitant at first to do a 3-way front sound stage from scratch, I would buy the speaker set and crossover parts over again if I ever had the need.

The RF P400-x4 is not only a powerhouse, but a great sounding amp as well. Considering its size, price, options and SQ it is a wonderful bargain. If I were to do it all again from scratch, I would find it hard to not use the RF P1000x5 except for the $$ and the size at nearly 16” long. Having to now run (and hide) a separate amp just for the sub is somewhat discouraging, but I know once the effort and time is put in it will be worth it.

The RSS265HO-4 is my only problem child in this whole project. Yes, it IS a very well built speaker and I am proud to own one, but it does have a drawback that I will get to in a bit. Since it will take considerable time to build the enclosure for the jump seat pocket that I desire, I built a simple (but very well built and braced) sealed enclosure to use over the winter. It is built of ¾” MDF and only 12” in all three dimensions with the front baffle being two layers thick. The enclosure is 100% sealed and you have to really push on the cone to get it to move at all. The net internal volume is right around 0.7 cuft and it is stuffed with a pound of polyfill.

So, what is the drawback? It needs a TON of power to really get the most out of it. Way more than what I currently have to offer at 250-300W. Some of this issue is due to the almost overly small enclosure, but mostly it is the drivers suspension and motor design. It’s efficiency is lower than most other subs, but that is to be expected of something this small that can absorb that much juice. The most I have put into it has been 500W and that was by bridging a 90’s Yamaha MX-800 home power amplifier. Even with that I was not able to get to bottom out – ever. When I put my subwoofer processor in between my signal and the Yamaha the bottom end came to life and was very impressive - much to the dismay of everything in my garage that is not nailed down. The Bass knob on my PA-1 has been modified to replicate the 20Hz shelving of the processor, so I am very excited to see what it will do in the van!

My suggestion to anyone using a single sub with a sub amp currently on the market, I would say to go with the RSS265HO-44. Being a DVC speaker with dual 4 Ohm coils, you can wire it to 2 Ohms which will make the most out of current amps yielding a nearly 6dB jump in overall output for the same space requirement. The sub amp I am using is not happy being bridged at 2 Ohms, so that is why I chose the single voice coil version.

The next update will be will be after the initial sub install. Woo hoo!!!

*NOTE: Please do not comment on the carpeting job on the sub. It is a temporary enclosure and the carpet was an afterthought who's only purpose was to contain the MDF crumblies that may get rubbed off of the corners.*


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## sienna12 (Mar 31, 2012)

Sounds awesome! In for more pics!


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

still loving this build!


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Brian_smith06 – Thanks for the comments! I, and my kids, are as well.


sienna12 – Once I get the sub amp and sub installed, I will take and post more. OH!! Since you have a Gen3 Sienna as well, I must share my latest upgrade – StopTech slotted rotors and ceramic pads. Where front brakes used to overheat DURING the first stop from 65mph (intense shuddering), I can now repeatedly hit 90mph and stop quickly without fade and each stop is smooth as silk. Right at $300 total for all parts, it was an EASY swap.


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## Big Deuce (Nov 29, 2015)

sskloss said:


> Here is a pic of the radio's main board (bottom assembly) with yellow arrows indicating the solder points to use to pull the audio signal. The yellow rectangle is around a group of capacitors located between the Vol/Tone control chip and the TDA7388 chip amp. This section of board is located in the rear left portion just in front of the chip amp.
> 
> Each channel has two SMT capacitors in line - a small and large one. The two larger capacitors on the outside are the Front Left and Right. The two inner ones are the Rear Left and Right. I chose to solder to the larger capacitors as it is much easier than the smaller ones, however the side of the larger ones used keeps that capacitor out of the signal path.


Pardon any ignorance, but this has me very curious. What are the advantages of this over just taking the speaker-level into a processor? Does this capture the signal before any factory EQing?

Where would I find a more detailed tutorial?

I'm hoping to get a Sienna in the near future and that'll be my excuse to get back into the car audio game. With how integrated all the electronics are, I'm looking for the best solution to get descent sound from the factory HU.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Big Deuce - The advantage of tapping the board vs. running the speaker level lines into a processor are twofold.

1. You are grabbing the audio signal before it passes through the built in output chip amplifier - in this case the TDA7833 amplifier. The output amplifier will inject all kinds of distortion (just look at the datasheet for it), especially at higher volumes.

2. Most all speaker-level to line-level converters (LLCs) use a transformer based coupler to step down the voltage. Transformers are seen by the output amps as an inductive load which, as the signal frequency gets lower, is much harder to drive and keep accurate. 

Where I chose to tap the signal does not bypass the factory EQ, which to me is a good thing. The radios bass and treble controls coupled with the PA-1's bass, midbass and treble controls give me a 5 band EQ of sorts with the control where i need it most.

I would have preferred to tap the signal before the caps leading to the output chip, but it would have required me to dig deeper into the head unit. My goal was simply to use the best signal I could muster using the parts, tools and knowledge i have.

Kudos on looking at the Sienna, they are great. Depending on which model/trim package you go with, getting a great audio signal can be MUCH easier than what I went through. Those that use the JBL systems have shielded, line-level outputs (all 4 channels if not surround sound as well) already run to under the front passenger seat. Other models now will probably have RCA outputs similar to those on the Scion FRS. Once you settled on a model and trim check out used radios on ebay to see what outputs are available.

If you have the chance, drive an SE before any other models.  You will be amazed at how well a minivan should drive.


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## Big Deuce (Nov 29, 2015)

So, you have me convinced I should do some surgery on my radio when I get the Sienna (may be as soon as this weekend). Any chance you took some after-soldering photos of your circuit board? Did you just solder to the left side of the capacitors in the picture? Also, is there an easy way to run the ends out of the chassis, or do you drill a hole?

Do you see any volume dependent EQ effects in the Toyota radio? Does the bass drop off at higher volumes?

I'll probably end up with an SE or XLE. The leather seats look much nicer than the cloth seats in the LE. My wife recently got the 2015 Highlander LE, and those cloth seats are nicer than most leather seats.

Thanks again, this has been a very interesting thread.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

There is a good chance you might not have to do surgery on your radio. Some of the ones in newer Toyotas have RCA outputs (Rear or sub out only on some) and some have shielded line level outs. If not one of these, then yes, you will probably have to. No worries though, it’s not rocket-surgery. 

Sadly, no I did not take after-solder pics. However, I simply soldered to the left side of the larger capacitors – exactly the solder pads the yellow arrows point to. I did drill holes out the back of the radio to run the leads out (pic attached). I used rubber grommets (from hardware store) that fit the shielded cable snuggly. I test drilled and fitted the grommets on some scrap, sheet metal to make sure I had the hole sized correctly for the grommets, as I only had one shot. Also, I propped up the chassis so that any small metal shavings that were released during drilling fell away from the unit and not into it. 

No, I have not noticed any EQ (bass or treble) differences due to volume. My guess is you are referring to a Loudness effect? Other head units may be different. 

I also added a pic with the head unit output info for the RCA jacks. As you can see, the output is not very 'stiff' at 3.6k Ohms. Max 'useable' volume of '50' refers to the displays volume level and is 80% of max and the cleanest signal close to noticeable clipping (on o-scope) at volume level '56'.

One word of caution on the SE ‘leather’ seats. It is not leather, but rather cheap vinyl. My driver’s seat has already cracked in a couple spots and I am not a heavy guy. This does not bother me at all, since I will gladly pay to have them redone at a local upholsterer. The performance increase that the SE yields (on top of the big price difference) compared to the XLE gives me the much more pleasure than little quirks that can be easily remedied. You or others may not agree, but to each their own. Now with much better traction and braking, I love it. Once I figure out how to deliver power to the ground in a FWD vehicle, power mods will follow.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Sub is installed and mostly tuned. As much as I would love to rave about how it sounds, I’m rather puzzled by the outcome. It does fill in down to the bottom octaves without issue, however there are two problems with it that are more than likely related. 

First, it doesn’t hit nearly as hard as I believe it should. The same Alpine amp with a 12” (Dayton Series II DVC – circa 2000) used to be quite puchy and hit rather hard in my 91 Accord. “Duh! That was a larger driver in a MUCH smaller car!” you may say. Agreed, but it is still waaaay short of expectations.

Second, the bass overall seems ‘slow’. By this I mean that certain quick transients (kick drums for example) within a number of my reference songs that are nearly non-existant when played, when they should be sharp and well pronounced. On top of that, on long droaning bass notes (example: ‘Turned down for what?’) the bass takes a half second or so to build-up in volume. You hardly hear the initial kick of the note in the beginning, then the prolonged low note fades in rather than being consistant.

Currently, my best guess is that either the amp has far too little output for the subwoofer/enclosure combination or the drivers seat is in or very close to a node. If it is the amp, then I can see where the ultra small box and ineffecient driver would cause the punch not to be there, as well as the inertia of cone moving back and forth near resonance helping it build up long bass note volume. The only fixes here are bigger box for same driver, much more power or totally different driver/box combination. I still have the 12” in the same enclosure I used in my Honda, so I will give that a try this weekend to see what difference there is – if any.

However, if it is due to a node, then moving the sub box around (and adjusting the polarity approriately) should fix it. I should also be able to sit in other places and have an exeperience much more like I expect. There is also the possiblity that, due to the shape of the car, there may simply be a dead zone for the driver (please no!!).

Constant progression towards excellence….


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

The subwoofer issue is almost solved. I swapped out the 10” for the old Series II 12” DVC in a sealed box with Q = 0.65. The 12” initially worked much better, but there was still some delay. Moving the enclosure from the rear, drivers side corner to the center of the rear cargo area up against the tailgate brought the punch back to where it should be. There is still some tuning to be done with crossover points and sub enclosure placement, but that will happen over time. I found a good article on the problems of time-alignment and phase when it comes to mating a remotely located sub to lower midrange or midbass drivers of a system. (SoundStage! Max dB - Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact (06/1999))

I switched back to the 10” and even in the same spot, it was not right. The box is way too small for that driver. I am tempted to make an adapter ring and place the 10” in the enclosure the 12” currently resides to see what the larger box (1.75 cuft net) would let it do. I don’t have any enclosure predicting software on this computer, but if I remember correctly the Q in that box will be in the 0.5 neighborhood.


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## Big Deuce (Nov 29, 2015)

Do you think your midbass isn't keeping up? In the past when my bass has felt slow, it's usually weak midbass. I think that's where the initial kick happens, then the note rounds out more in the lower end.

I pulled the trigger on a 2015 XLE. I absolutely love it so far. I was more interested in the extra creature comforts than going for the 10 second ride .

I'm starting to accumulate equipment. Already ordered some Kicker 3.5 and 6x9 for upfront. We'll see if the 3.5s fit without permanent damage. If not, they were only $30.

I have an old PG Tantrum 600.4 and an ed Nine.1. I'm not sure if I'll have room to mount both, so I may just invest in one of the newer 5 channel amps. The Pioneer 9605 seems to be a decent amount of power. I'd consider the PPI i640.5, but I'm not sure 350 watts is enough juice for the sub channel in that big cabin. I'm surprised how small of a footprint these amps have now... I guess it's been a while since I've been bass shopping.

I like how you squeezed your amp in the seat storage. I don't have the guts to drill holes yet. More specifically, I don't have the guts to let my wife see holes yet.

I already integrated my Sirius Dock N Play with the universal dash mount bracket... no screws, cutting, etc. and it's nice and solid. I'll probably start a thread at some point to show what I'm doing.

Anyway, I'm following this one closely. Lots of good info. We need more Sienna builds.


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## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

As soon as I'm done with my build I'll start on the wife's Sienna. Already got some Ok's from the wife. Keep up the good work. 


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

BigDuce – What audio setup did you get in your XLE? Sounds like it should be a great setup. I hope the 3.5” drivers will fit under the dash grills and mate well to the ‘tube’ protruding from the bottom of them. The tube nestles into the foam gasket of the stock dash speaker creating an IB type of setup (same as the doors).

johnbooth3 – There is nothing like spousal approval! What year/model Sienna does your wife have?


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

So I managed to obliterate one of my Peerless midbass drivers (passenger side). I knew that only having a low-pass crossover and not protecting them from the bottom octaves was dangerous, but I figured I would keep the volume down enough until I figured out a solution – who was I kidding?  My 12 year old daughter and I were blasting some dubstep the other night and well… Let’s just say that square wave stuff is HARD on drivers. New one ordered and will be here in a week.

SOLUTION – I could either upgrade to an external crossover, install a 60Hz high-pass active crossover for the front 4 channel amp, use FMods or make some high-pass passive crossovers for the doors. Not knowing the best route, I posted the question. As soon as I clicked ‘Submit’, it hit me – DSP. Yeah I know I said I didn’t want to use DSP, but for $125 I will have dang near endless adjustability over the crossovers and many other parameters I would never have. 

Having a few months of good listening to my original setup, I am very curious to see what improvement can be made by turning to D(arkside)SP.


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## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

sskloss said:


> johnbooth3 – There is nothing like spousal approval! What year/model Sienna does your wife have?



My wife has the same year/model. 2011 Sienna XLE. 


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## Big Deuce (Nov 29, 2015)

sskloss said:


> BigDuce – What audio setup did you get in your XLE? Sounds like it should be a great setup. I hope the 3.5” drivers will fit under the dash grills and mate well to the ‘tube’ protruding from the bottom of them. The tube nestles into the foam gasket of the stock dash speaker creating an IB type of setup (same as the doors).
> 
> johnbooth3 – There is nothing like spousal approval! What year/model Sienna does your wife have?



I haven't had much time to play with it. I'm chasing my kid around to sports and we had a week vacation. I'm had a chance to test some old subs and amps. The amps are definitely too big to fit under the seats. It's disappointing, since the sound great and have tons of power. 

I'll probably have to get some really compact amps. I'm just struggling to find some with good crossover flexibility. Some HP filters are fixed at 80hz. Others are variable but don't have a band pass option. I don't was hoping to only send mid bass to the 6x9s in my doors and the rest to the 3.5s in the dash. Then just put bass blockers on the tears from the factory deck.

Speaking of the 3.5s... I haven't installed them yet. The fit is a little awkward. It seems to fit in the hole, but not with the original screw locations. Unfortunately, there isn't a good wire adapter for the factory harness. So I have to wait until I figure out my amp situation first. Then I can run some wires up there. 

For subs, I've been playing with an old pair of ED 8s. They get plenty loud with even just 300 watts, but I'm not really happy with how deep they get. The response seems to roll off too fast on the low end. I'll probably spot for a nice 12 and fiberglass something into the seat storage compartment. I have my eye on the sundown E series. They aren't too expensive, and seem pretty nice.

I think I've done enough experimenting. It's a shame I can't use the old amps, but I need full use of the cargo area, so the only location I can think of is under the front seats. 


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Big Deuce - Yeah, there isn’t much room under those seats. Especially for a decent sized amp.

On the 3.5s, the mounting system is rather odd if you have the same ones I did – a kind of Mikey Mouse looking bolt tabs. You could make an adapter plate that they drop into then use the factory bolt locations to hold the plate, but not sure if that would leave you enough room under the grill. 

As far as crossovers go, I totally understand the woes. If you ever thought of going the DSP route, it makes it soooooooo easy. The amount of equipment you get packed into one little box is insane. I have total respect for not using DSP, but I’m too old and have too little spare time to fiddle with the old school route.

Wow, fiberglassing into the seat storage area? Do you really plan on never folding the seats? 

For amp mounting, does your van not have the ‘jump seat’ storage pocket? That was a perfect place for my sub amp. Luckily, my new amp for mid/highs fit up behind the glove box somewhat easily. What about inside the center console or the lower glove box?


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## Big Deuce (Nov 29, 2015)

sskloss said:


> Big Deuce - Yeah, there isn’t much room under those seats. Especially for a decent sized amp.
> 
> On the 3.5s, the mounting system is rather odd if you have the same ones I did – a kind of Mikey Mouse looking bolt tabs. You could make an adapter plate that they drop into then use the factory bolt locations to hold the plate, but not sure if that would leave you enough room under the grill.
> 
> ...



I guess I wasn't clear about 'seat storage.' I was talking about fiberglassing into the jump seat's storage. Which answers why I'm not planning to mount an amp there. But, yes I need full fold capabilities of the rear seats. I should be able to get decent air volume in the jump seat location for a single 12". I looked at the center console when I was thinking about my two big amps. I'll measure it up again to see if it has more room than under the seats. I measured the seats this weekend and think I have a 8" x 13" space under each seat to work with. It's not TOO bad, but still not big enough for my existing amps.

I've thought about DSPs, but have a few challenges 1) they cost more money, 2), they need to be mounted somewhere. If I'm already struggling to locate amps, I don't want to put another device in play. I liked the idea of the MS-8 a lot, with the built in amps. That + a sub amp could have worked. I also like the auto-EQ based on output from the speakers. But with that product discontinued, I don't think that's the direction I'd want to go... and it was still pretty expensive.

For the 3.5s, I've set them in there without securing them, and the grill was able to snap in. So, there seems to be enough room, unless it's resting against a cone. Now, if it sounds decent is another question. My unrealistically ambitious side likes the idea of putting together a fiberglass pod to replace the stock grill.


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## sskloss (May 18, 2015)

Woo hoo! Turns out the midbass in the door was not blown after all. The EPP foam gasket I made to seal the metal door frame to the door panel shifted to a place where the cone could hit it. Now I have an extra 6.5” to sell or make a small sub for a desktop system or bedroom.

Been playing with the DSP and really like it. The biggest problem I am facing now is the -7dB insertion loss. The highest input voltage it can take is 2.0V and only puts out 0.9V max. I know I am running a 1.25V max signal level, so installing the DSP will require upping the gains on the amplifiers. Hopefully the new RCA cables with drain will be enough to keep noise at bay. I am considering building an output gain board to fit inside the unit, but not sure how it will work when powered by the USB jack at only 5V.


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