# Horn loaded subwoofer enclosures



## Abaddon

Discuss:

Why?

Why not?

Pictures?

Examples?


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## chad

Why,

Efficient, effortless, higher output

Why not,

Can be peaky, huge, tough to build and move, porables need to be room coupled or used in multiples to lower cutoff.

Pictures, 

google: LabHorn, Bassmaxx, Eaw KF940, W bin, Scoop, folded horn, bent horn, bass horn, and I've posted my personal ones on here before

Examples.. See above


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## Abaddon

What's the concept behind them? With the massive volumes required, I would think they are closer to an IB setup then any other type of enclosure?

I would assume that the contained volume does little to nothing to control cone movement?


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## Abaddon

upon reading more about horns...

These things are freaking AWESOME.


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## chad

Abaddon said:


> What's the concept behind them? With the massive volumes required, I would think they are closer to an IB setup then any other type of enclosure?
> 
> I would assume that the contained volume does little to nothing to control cone movement?


The ones pictured are more of a "scoop" where the horn flare itself controls the driver. Other horns use a TINY sealed chamber to control the movement then load the radiating side. This gives the cone equal pressure due to the compression of the throat and the tiny space it's in. You can shorten the horn path, which costs acoustic leverage, by making the enclosure for the driver larger or venting it as mine are.

Some horn designs are here: www.speakerplans.com

Chad


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## Abaddon

Now that I understand (through various different sources) how Horns work, and why they work... would they be appropriate for a 2.1 subwoofer setup? or would it be tooooo much for a regular sized room?

My thoughts would be a 10" woofer driven with about 500-1000 watts....

I've made a sketch of what I'm thinking... I think you'll be able to tell where the driver goes....



Sealed and Vented are too boring for me.


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## Oliver

Abaddon said:


> Now that I understand (through various different sources) how Horns work, and why they work... would they be appropriate for a 2.1 subwoofer setup? or would it be tooooo much for a regular sized room?
> 
> My thoughts would be a 10" woofer driven with about 500-1000 watts....
> 
> I've made a sketch of what I'm thinking... I think you'll be able to tell where the driver goes....
> 
> 
> 
> Sealed and Vented are too boring for me.


Looks like one half of the "WO32", Wicked one!

Build that with 1,000 watts and you will be able to make water vibrate in your room when the T-Rex on Jurrassic Park walks


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## Abaddon

Yep.. that was the inspiration for the design.

A dual 10" enclosure would be a bit TOO much I think... I'm in a townhouse so I really cant go too far overboard.


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## chad

I would say no, the mouth area required for fully coupled LFE work would be huge even live I still use conventional front loaded cones (twice as many of them) and only let the horns play down to 63 cycles. Build your MAINS out of horns and hang on


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## bobditts

http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm


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## chad

bobditts said:


> http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm


Linky no worky

This will get you close:
http://www.ossaudio.com/royaldevice.htm


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## bobditts

chad said:


> Linky no worky
> 
> This will get you close:
> http://www.ossaudio.com/royaldevice.htm


the link works just fine for me


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## Abaddon

Works fine for me too...

Looks pretty ****ing awesome...


ok Chad.. so if you think my basic design wont work.. would you mind explaining why this one does?

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm?/newsite/wo32.htm&intro


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## SSSnake

As chad mentioned getting horns to work for LFE or true sub applications is damn near impossible in a reasonably sized room. Even with corner placement the mouth area and flare length for a 20Hz horn is HUUUUUUGE. If you want to look at horns for your mains take a look at the Klipsch LaScalas. While there are better horns out there, the LaScala plans are readily available and give you a good idea of what is going on. Be sure to look at the Freq Resp ratings on the LaScalas as well, they are not low end monsters by any means (IMO - they require a sub to be a true full range system).

If I remeber correctly you can shorten the length of a horn by increaseing the total radiating surface of drivers used (therefore I would not use a 10" - start thinking multiple cheap 18s). This allows you to use a larger throat area and therfore shortens the horn. However,you are still left with the huge mouth.

While I have dreamed of a huge horn for subbass for quite some time I think that I am going IB instead. The construction time and cost for horns is just too great for me (at least in the subbass region - I love them for midbass)


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## Neil

chad said:


> I would say no, the mouth area required for fully coupled LFE work would be huge even live I still use conventional front loaded cones (twice as many of them) and only let the horns play down to 63 cycles. Build your MAINS out of horns and hang on


Now that is the truth. I look at this two ways....

1) Subwoofer for home theater - The goal is low frequency extension and you simply won't be able to build a horn that is any more effective than a well built ported enclosure at low frequencies. The size of the mouth and throat of a horn required for a low cutoff is huge, even taking nearfield boundaries into consideration. I would rather just go with an EBS (or the LLT variant).

2) Subwoofer for music - A little more realistic in this case, but given the material, I almost guarantee you'll find a horn-loaded mid to be a hell of a lot more exciting than a horn-loaded subwoofer on music. I have tried a few full range horns and I'm always blown away by what you can do with a single driver in a well built and designed horn.

So in short....I don't bother for subwoofers because the bandwidth over which a horn would be effective is minimal compared to the size of enclosure required.


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## thehatedguy

Simple easy horn to build for the house:

http://cowanaudio.com/

Search for tapped horns.

I built a 30 hertz tapped horn for my apartment, and she's insane.

If you don't have the room for a proper horn, I would go ported or something with a couple passive radiators.


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## SSSnake

As far as the decware products... not TRUE horns. I have built several and I was NEVER more impressed with the SQ or output more than any of the other designs I came up with from scratch (well there was that 12th order, isobaric, quasi horn loaded ....  ).

If lyou really want to look into smaller horn designs then Danley Sound labs is where to start. The only problem is that the design is under patent but you can get some very good ideas there.

They used to have a link to a huge horn that they built for CES. It was truly incredible.


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## t3sn4f2

chad said:


> Why,
> 
> Efficient, effortless, higher output
> 
> Why not,
> 
> Can be peaky, huge, tough to build and move, porables need to be room coupled or used in multiples to lower cutoff.
> 
> Pictures,
> 
> google: LabHorn, Bassmaxx, Eaw KF940, W bin, Scoop, folded horn, bent horn, bass horn, and I've posted my personal ones on here before
> 
> Examples.. See above


and the ultimate horn ever..........THE MATTERHORN

*Specification is -3dB @ 12 Hz and flat from 15-80 Hz. It will do 105 dB @ 250 meters!!!!!*.

- x40 Subwoofers
- x40 1,000 Watt amplifiers
- 20' x 8' x 8' Cargo container
- 53 Sheets 4' x 8' 18mm 13 ply Baltic Birch plywood
- 645 feet of 3" x 3" 1/4" angle iron
- 23 feet of 4" x 4" square steel tubing
- 39 feet of 1" x 1" X 1/4" angle iron
- 23 lbs of .030 welding wire
- 95 Tubes of heavy duty construction adhesive
- 1100 feet of 12 Gauge speaker cable
- Approx. 5000 screws and bolts
- $200 worth drill bits


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## chad

Abaddon said:


> ok Chad.. so if you think my basic design wont work.. would you mind explaining why this one does?
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm?/newsite/wo32.htm&intro


Not to diss Deckert but it doesn't, the mouth is simply too small and it acts as a simple bandpass, recently in another thread you may find me calling that exact design merely a "horn motor".

For smaller horns look into Tom Danley's tapped horn designs, but you ain't gonnna find plans.

Chad

Edit.... Doh, got beat to all of it


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## Abaddon

ok, thanks Chad

I guess I'll just make a boring ported enclosure then...


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## chad

Abaddon said:


> ok, thanks Chad
> 
> I guess I'll just make a boring ported enclosure then...


Why? 

There are all sorts of things out there to play with. 

Horn bass/mid/high cabs. 

Bandpass!!!! Bandpass systems got a HORRIBLE rap in the 90's because people just sucked at building them. It's another high efficiency design, the broader the bandwidth the less the efficiency boost but hell, why not try. I'm, goign to do a bandpass in the garage soon. Some of the world's finest touring PA's use bandpass subs..... because horns are too damn big, they know the passband they need, and they are efficient.

Chad


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## Neil

Information on Danley's tapped horns is out there...there has even been some "reverse engineering" done on his designs. I'll post what I have in bookmarks later tonight, if I get a chance.

I think one of the confusing things for many is the difference between appearing to be a horn and behaving like a horn. As Chad has alluded to several times already, you simply won't find a real horn for low frequency performance that isn't huge...like way huge.


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## chad

Punk0Rama said:


> Information on Danley's tapped horns is out there...there has even been some "reverse engineering" done on his designs. I'll post what I have in bookmarks later tonight, if I get a chance.
> 
> I think one of the confusing things for many is the difference between appearing to be a horn and behaving like a horn. As Chad has alluded to several times already, you simply won't find a real horn for low frequency performance that isn't huge...like way huge.


BUT (not like this is going to work in a home) but to get it out there, you can array smaller horns mouth-to mouth to couple and act as one large horn 

And this bears repeating... big time.....



Punk0Rama said:


> I think one of the confusing things for many is the difference between appearing to be a horn and behaving like a horn.


Chad


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## havok20222

WHY ARE WE YELLING!

Oh, I'm a horn speaker. I forgot.


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## chad

havok20222 said:


> WHY ARE WE YELLING!
> 
> Oh, I'm a horn speaker. I forgot.


You have heard the Klipsch and Bose joke eh?


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## dewi1219

I use a horn sub in my HT. The design is from Bill Fitzmaurice (http://www.billfitzmaurice.com). It is big (30x30x24), but I disguised it as an end table so that it doesn't overtake the room. Loaded with two cheap 8" drivers it is efficient enough to literally shake the whole house running off a small 150W plate amp. Transients are super fast and tonal balance is really good with extension down to about 18Hz. Some guys here doubt horns, but it is the best sub I have had.


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## chad

18 cycles...... Where's the rest of it?


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## thehatedguy

I've already posted one link to tapped horn design/layout. No one clicked the link to Cowan Audio?

The other post floating around is this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97674

Hornrsp and AJhorn both will model tapped horns as well.


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## thehatedguy

It might play to 18, but there is no way it is horn loaded to 18...down that low she's either acting as a bandpass or blowing straight through and is acting as a sealed box.

An 18 hertz horn is going to be in the magnitude of 20+ cubic feet.



dewi1219 said:


> I use a horn sub in my HT. The design is from Bill Fitzmaurice (http://www.billfitzmaurice.com). It is big (30x30x24), but I disguised it as an end table so that it doesn't overtake the room. Loaded with two cheap 8" drivers it is efficient enough to literally shake the whole house running off a small 150W plate amp. Transients are super fast and tonal balance is really good with extension down to about 18Hz. Some guys here doubt horns, but it is the best sub I have had.


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## chad

thehatedguy said:


> I've already posted one link to tapped horn design/layout. No one clicked the link to Cowan Audio?



OK, you knew I'd bite 

Sooo, what did you think of that 30HZ horn? Did you use the peerless driver? I know damn good and well when the neighbors were away...... well?


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## thehatedguy

It is insane. I have it on my plate amp, had to basically turn the amp all the way down to get her mated to the Edgarhorns. LOTS more output over sealed. But she's about 7' tall...

The shiny stuff is silicone where sealed her up since I built it in 2 pieces so it would fit in my car.


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## dewi1219

thehatedguy said:


> It might play to 18, but there is no way it is horn loaded to 18...down that low she's either acting as a bandpass or blowing straight through and is acting as a sealed box.
> 
> An 18 hertz horn is going to be in the magnitude of 20+ cubic feet.


You're right - it goes to direct radiator in the lower octave, but with the room gain the balance is good. It's WAY more efficient at 18Hz than my old sealed sub ever thought about. Like I said before, I know some of you guys don't care for horn subs, and I'm not trying to change your minds. I just want to state for the record that it works great for me. If my room and budget would allow, I would go multi-driver IB, but since that's not feasible this works great for me. I have no desire to change it.


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## thehatedguy

I love horns...some people haven't seen the light yet, and don't use horns.


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## bassfromspace

If I'm not mistaken, Deckert's Imperial Horn is over 20 cubes. I think it's 26 cubic feet.


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## Ga foo 88

Don't know much about it, but seems like something someone here could address ...

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=493


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## chad

Ga foo 88 said:


> Don't know much about it, but seems like something someone here could address ...
> 
> http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=493


An absolutely beautiful flare and path length! I'd love to see build pics!


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## chad

dewi1219 said:


> Like I said before, I know some of you guys don't care for horn subs, and I'm not trying to change your minds......


I don't think you are going to find many people here that will turn their nose up to a proper horn


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## Neil

chad said:


> I don't think you are going to find many people here that will turn their nose up to a proper horn


Yes....on the contrary, I'd be willing to be that everyone who has posted in here so far loves horns.


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## SSSnake

Damn it!!! I was going to be perfectly content with my IB setup and now you guys have me wanting to try the tapped horn, AGAIN. 

Jason, have you put your tapped horn on an RTA? The reason I ask is the mouth circumference looks small (not a dig, just wanting to learn...). With a tapped horn design do you only build the first half of the horn (throat to mid horn) or the last half (mid horn to mouth), or some other horn segment/flare?

Here's the deal... I have three ID Maxs that I want to use. Target response is 20 to 50 hz. I have a LOT of room behind a wall in my den (30 ft tall wall - below the roof line). I assume a horn length of 13.25'. Would the mouth circumference need to be 27.5'? I can get 16' but not much more.


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## thehatedguy

Mine is a direct copy of the 30 hertz tapped horn on www.cowanaudio.com 

All I did was convert the metric to english and built her up. This is a really easy design to build...just freaking large.

No, haven't had a chance to play with a RTA. When I get the laptop setup worked out, I'll take some measurements. I would assume it would measure similarly to the one on Cowan's site...the IDQ12 has similar specs to the Peerless he used.


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## zukiaudio

thehatedguy said:


> Mine is a direct copy of the 30 hertz tapped horn on www.cowanaudio.com
> 
> All I did was convert the metric to english and built her up. This is a really easy design to build...just freaking large.
> 
> No, haven't had a chance to play with a RTA. When I get the laptop setup worked out, I'll take some measurements. I would assume it would measure similarly to the one on Cowan's site...the IDQ12 has similar specs to the Peerless he used.







what cd player is being used ?


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## thehatedguy

Zuki, I have a Sony S7000 feeding a modified Bel Canto DAC2...my Benchmark DAC1 is off being modded.


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## zukiaudio

thehatedguy said:


> Zuki, I have a Sony S7000 feeding a modified Bel Canto DAC2...my Benchmark DAC1 is off being modded.



so you have a sony transport.

i see a cd with a green edge too ha.


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## thehatedguy

Yeap...no idea where that CD came from


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## zukiaudio




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## havok20222

chad said:


> You have heard the Klipsch and Bose joke eh?


I sell both.... I've heard all the jokes.


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## chad

thehatedguy said:


> Mine is a direct copy of the 30 hertz tapped horn on www.cowanaudio.com
> 
> All I did was convert the metric to english and built her up. This is a really easy design to build...just freaking large.
> 
> No, haven't had a chance to play with a RTA. When I get the laptop setup worked out, I'll take some measurements. I would assume it would measure similarly to the one on Cowan's site...the IDQ12 has similar specs to the Peerless he used.


I know it would REALLY make the build more difficult but couldn't one fold it up and make it squattier?


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## SSSnake

You can always fold horns but the folds increase other issues. If I remember correctly every fold tends to reduce efficiency and increase horn resonances. Again this is just from memory, I would have to pull out my horn theory book and review. The major issue I think is that the more folds you put in a horn the less it behaves like an ideal horn (you start having to play tricks with the crossectional area in the folds to maintain contant air velocity, etc.). Again that is just from memory. Its been too long since I critically looked at horn design.


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## chad

SSSnake said:


> You can always fold horns but the folds increase other issues. If I remember correctly every fold tends to reduce efficiency and increase horn resonances. Again this is just from memory, I would have to pull out my horn theory book and review. The major issue I think is that the more folds you put in a horn the less it behaves like an ideal horn (you start having to play tricks with the crossectional area in the folds to maintain contant air velocity, etc.). Again that is just from memory. Its been too long since I critically looked at horn design.


I think your right, I don't know about the efficinecy thing but I belive you are right on target on everyting else. unless the resonance causes destructive nodal issues.

What books do you have?


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## thehatedguy

Yeah, you can fold the tapped designs. There is a guy on the diyaudio link that I posted who built the tall one, then later cut it in half and stuck the pieces side-by-side to make it shorter. I've actually ended up laying mine down behind the Edgarhorns on the floor and have it exhausting upwards right in the middle of the mid horns. Seemed to sound best that way,and more safe with a 6 year old on the loose.

And at the frequencies we are playing through these horns, I wouldn't worry much about loosing any efficiency or being super super anal about things since the wavelengths are so long. But generally a straight horn will have better low level detail over folded designs. If you want to know more about the math of it all, go here and read the Bruce Edgar articles: http://www.volvotreter.de/dl-section.htm

He also has a tapped horn spread sheet along with the tractix spread sheet there as well. And some nice plans for a 77 hertz conical midbass horn (I built something really similar before he posted his plans).


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## Oliver

Jason or anyone else, have you found this [free program ] beneficial ?
http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/


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## SSSnake

Yes, however it is not set up tapped horns (which right now is piquing my interest).


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## thehatedguy

You should be able to do tapped horns with it, that is according to the guys on diyaudio.


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## SSSnake

I'll take a look but from what I understand HornResp for a tapped horn it is more of a more high level approximation.


From DIY Audio Thread


> Yes, it looks bad for the tapped horn, but hornresp is not simulating the full story. A tapped horn such as this is a 1/4 wave horn at 18 Hz which is what hornresp shows, but at the same time it is a 1/2 wave horn at 36 Hz. This is what hornresp doesn't show. With the correct driver, the result is that the response is flat and the dips are filled in.


I think that you can do a two pass approach (1/4 wave and 1/2 wave freqs) and get pretty close.


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## lilmike

Hic said:


> Jason or anyone else, have you found this [free program ] beneficial ?
> http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/


Hi.

Recently found this place, and stumbled upon this discussion - something I might be able to contribute a bit to.

The current version (17) of McBean's Hornresp will model tapped horn enclosures effectively. It is a bit fiddly, but it can be done. It is relatively accurate based on what I've done so far.

Hornresp is also effective at modeling the long-path horns like Bill F. designs, as well as just about anything else that can be horn loaded. 

Tapped horns can be folded, just like any bass horn. It all depends on the shape of the enclosure you're after. When built like Cowan's are, tapped horns are a stupid easy build, anything folded gets complicated quickly.


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## lilmike

Hi.

Recently found this place, and stumbled upon this discussion - something I might be able to contribute a bit to.

The current version (17) of McBean's Hornresp will model tapped horn enclosures effectively. It is a bit fiddly, but it can be done. It is relatively accurate based on what I've done so far.

Hornresp is also effective at modeling the long-path horns like Bill F. designs, as well as just about anything else that can be horn loaded. 

Tapped horns can be folded, just like any bass horn. It all depends on the shape of the enclosure you're after. When built like Cowan's are, tapped horns are a stupid easy build, anything folded gets complicated quickly.


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## Oliver

Welcome to DIYMA !! lilmike !


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## Oliver

Smaller Acoustic Load Angles 
In horn type loudspeakers the acoustic radiation from the horn driver is funneled into an even smaller solid angle than "eighth space" and achieves increased power output as a result of the horn load. The smaller solid angles constitute a "stiffer" acoustic load and draws more power from the source analogous to the way that a lower impedance speaker draws more power from the amplifier driving it. Indeed, horns have been likened to "acoustic transformers" for the way that they can be used to match the impedance of the driving source to the impedance of the load to effect maximum power transfer.


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## Fellippe

thehatedguy said:


> It might play to 18, but there is no way it is horn loaded to 18...down that low she's either acting as a bandpass or blowing straight through and is acting as a sealed box.
> 
> An 18 hertz horn is going to be in the magnitude of 20+ cubic feet.


That's all?

What about that humongous horn loaded setup I sent you in that link? The one that's a tunnel in his own house!

And it's only tuned to 30 hertz!

I don't understand.


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## SSSnake

Ooops, I don't have v17. It looks like time to update, I'm on v14. Thanks for the tip.


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## thehatedguy

You have to remember how long a 30 hertz wave is...and the fact those are full sized horns. Most home horns are designed to be placed near a wall or a corner and use that as an extension of the mouth, and if you go that route, you can make the horn say 3/16 or a 1/4 size of normal. Horns placed in free space need to really be full sized since they don't benefit from barrier loading.



Fellippe said:


> That's all?
> 
> What about that humongous horn loaded setup I sent you in that link? The one that's a tunnel in his own house!
> 
> And it's only tuned to 30 hertz!
> 
> I don't understand.


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## Abaddon

Just a random side note...

I was humming along this afternoon and realized the best possible example of a horn are our voices. Pretty damn perfect example I would think...


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## thehatedguy

No, not really.


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## Abaddon

well, horns basic (only?) function is to couple the speaker to the air... right?

Wouldn't our throats and mouth do the exact same thing?


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## thehatedguy

No, that's not the only function of a horn.

A horn provides increased efficiency and pattern control- it amplifies the work done by the driver.

I don't think your mouth and throat provide any amplification. Considering how small the mouth is and how short your throat is, it wouldn't load the vocal chords below 1k or so.


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## Abaddon

well yes, but the coupling of the driver to the air, is the reason for the efficiency increase...

So Wouldn't having the human vocal chords acting on a reduced air volume, have the same basic advantages?

I doubt you could get the same volume of the vocal chords external to the human body...


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## thehatedguy

Above the loading frequency, it would act as a horn...but below that, which is most of our vocal range it wouldn't load.


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## Abaddon

thehatedguy said:


> Above the loading frequency, it would act as a horn...but below that, which is most of our vocal range it wouldn't load.


Ahhhhh... good explanation.. thanks


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## chad

thehatedguy said:


> Above the loading frequency, it would act as a horn...but below that, which is most of our vocal range it wouldn't load.


Must be why a girl's scream hurts sooo Effing bad!


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## thehatedguy

I wonder if there is a correlation between those loading frequencies of the vocal chords and the Fletcher-Munson curve?


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## chad

thehatedguy said:


> I wonder if there is a correlation between those loading frequencies of the vocal chords and the Fletcher-Munson curve?


Absolutely!

I took the boy roller skating last weekend and there was a group of girls that would scream in unison as one would fall, we are talking like an "at a boy-band concert" scream.

It would make you dizzy it was so horrible, and THEN there was the beat frequency that felt like someone was pounding your head with a tack hammer.

I wanted to hockey-check them.

Chad


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## 300Z

chad said:


> I wanted to hockey-check them.
> 
> Chad


LOL


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## chad

300Z said:


> LOL


Well they skated in a line broad side, they were amateurs, I was on hockey Rollerblades, It was "know WTF you are doing" skate time, and felt like it. It would have been like a 20MPH 200Lb bowling ball. hammer them all in a line going around a corner, never would have known what hit them.....


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## 300Z

chad said:


> Well they skated in a line broad side, they were amateurs, I was on hockey Rollerblades, It was "know WTF you are doing" skate time, and felt like it. It would have been like a 20MPH 200Lb bowling ball. hammer them all in a line going around a corner, never would have known what hit them.....


Awesome... I got some hockey skates too but mine are quads...  Didn't knew you could skate too... what can't you do?


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## chad

300Z said:


> Awesome... I got some hockey skates too but mine are quads...  Didn't knew you could skate too... what can't you do?


It's a guilty pleasure :blush: 

Hadn't done it in a LONG time then we took the boy a few times, he got the hang of it, it's getting me in shape, so we go about every week now :blush: They have a Wednesday night skate and it's nice to go get some stress out. Saturday mornings it's nice to go because it will knock a slight hangover RIGHT OUT!  

My wife is damn good, she can stil do all the old-skool stuff, it's a riot watching a MILF go out there and just throw down.

I had my first epic spill last Saturday after aging, I had no idea a 200Lb man could stay airborne for so long, lest I forget weight has no effect on rate of fall but only energy upon meeting the ground... and that little thing called inertia, ouch

Chad


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## 300Z

That's awesome. I used to go skate every week since 1990, played roller hockey for a couple of months in '94 and then had to stop skating 2 years ago because of knee but I'm about to get back at it. It's great exercise.
Jamskate rocks! and there is some damn fine chicks at one of the local skate rinks, 18 and up only...


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## Mr_Movie_dog

SSSnake said:


> As chad mentioned getting horns to work for LFE or true sub applications is damn near impossible in a reasonably sized room. Even with corner placement the mouth area and flare length for a 20Hz horn is HUUUUUUGE. If you want to look at horns for your mains take a look at the Klipsch LaScalas. While there are better horns out there, the LaScala plans are readily available and give you a good idea of what is going on. Be sure to look at the Freq Resp ratings on the LaScalas as well, they are not low end monsters by any means (IMO - they require a sub to be a true full range system).
> 
> If I remeber correctly you can shorten the length of a horn by increaseing the total radiating surface of drivers used (therefore I would not use a 10" - start thinking multiple cheap 18s). This allows you to use a larger throat area and therfore shortens the horn. However,you are still left with the huge mouth.
> 
> While I have dreamed of a huge horn for subbass for quite some time I think that I am going IB instead. The construction time and cost for horns is just too great for me (at least in the subbass region - I love them for midbass)


Even at 50Hz F3 because of the efficiency of the design, quality of the drivers, and design of the crossover / cabinet the La Scala’s rock for all different styles of music and in fact they don’t need a subwoofer addon as they produce so much crisp deep bass adding a sub is hardly noticeable if at all. A very expensive sub will be noticeable and a nice addition but is definitely not necessary. These are fantastic imaging speakers at a SPL of 104+ db 1w/1m and maybe that is why they STILL make them some 50+ years in production. I’ve had my La Scala’s since the early 80’s and they have increased in price to $4000 each, I paid $2400 for a pair in the 80’s. How many other speakers can you say that about, I can’t think of any personally that are still in production? By venting the baffle chamber on the La Scala’s it might be possible to lower the F3 point of the speaker design to a F3 of 33Hz like the Klipsch Horns or maybe even lower I would have to model it to be more specific. But at 6db you'll reach those lows you are looking for and since these babies pump bass out 6db is no stretch at all in fact we could go even lower on the curve.

I’ve seen speakers with fantastic specs and you would think they would rock you listen to them but then you are sadly disappointed so don’t let specs fool you test drive before you condemn something.

If you ever get the chance to pick these speakers up cheap jump on it as you will not regret it.

As to the Klipsch Bose jokes you can’t classify Klipsch with Bose that would be a joke. :-D

*La Scala II*


Code:


http://www.klipsch.com/news-center/photo-gallery/details/la-scala-ii-1.aspx

*Spec*


Code:


http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/la-scala-ii.aspx#specificati

ons

*Klipschorn & Spec*


Code:


http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/klipschorn.aspx


----------



## chad

if you don't mind ugly......

You can buy the pro versions of the LaScala's cheap from rental houses for pro gear. They are generally also more efficient.


----------



## chad

if you don't mind ugly......

You can buy the pro versions of the LaScala's cheap from rental houses for pro gear. They are generally also more efficient.


----------



## Mr_Movie_dog

You can still buy the newer version the La Scala II but like I said they are expensive but you are right they make a pro version as well, black stage finish. You can find them at goodwills and places like Craigs list too.

The only people that don't like La Scala's are those who don't like horn based systems as they claim they screem too much or as some call it shrill. Everyone that has ever heard my system pro's or not just love the Klipsch too bad Paul is gone now.

My 80's series aren't ugly they have a nice grill cloth over the high end drivers and look much nicer then the 76' series or even series II speakers.


----------



## Echo42987

That has got to be so damn loud....


----------



## Niebur3

Those are really cool!


----------



## thehatedguy

I love horns...but LaScalas...yuck.


----------



## chad

where the hell have you been? life treating you well?


----------



## Mr_Movie_dog

thehatedguy said:


> I love horns...but LaScalas...yuck.


You must be a Bose fanboy. LOL


----------



## thehatedguy

I have Edgarhorn Slimlines, a Bottlehead amp, and a Benchmark DAC1. So no Bose for me, but thanks for playing.


----------



## Genxx

^^^Nice to see you posting again.


----------



## chad

thehatedguy said:


> I have Edgarhorn Slimlines, a Bottlehead amp, and a Benchmark DAC1. So no Bose for me, but thanks for playing.


Have you had any issues with your DAC1? Both of ours developed a slow to pass audio channel and crackling on that channel during initial turn on. Had to re-cap both of them, one was about 4 years old, the other was newish.


----------



## thehatedguy

No issues yet, but mine has been "lightly" modified .

Bigger caps in the PS, HEXFred diodes, Black Gate Coupling caps, BB OPA2107 opamps through out the whole unit (would change them to something I like better if I had to do it all over again), teflon cap on the coax input.

Nice upgrades to a nice unit.


----------



## Mr_Movie_dog

thehatedguy said:


> I have Edgarhorn Slimlines, a Bottlehead amp, and a Benchmark DAC1. So no Bose for me, but thanks for playing.



I just had to give you a dig and figured you were not a Bose fan but you didn't really give any valid reason for your dislike, hence the dig.

I've never demo'd the Slimline's but I'm sure they sound very nice, however they also don't seem much different then the La Scala's except less efficient and a higher box Fs. So what do you feel makes yours better and that is only if you have demo's both side-by-side otherwise it is hard to be critical between the two as they seem very simular.


----------



## thehatedguy

You have never demoed the Slimlines, but you say they aren't that much different? By your own argument you can't really make your statement either. The 2 speakers only have 3 commonalities, the midbass and midranges are horn loaded and they are 3 way designs. However that is the only similarities...different sized drivers in both applications, the Slimline has a cone midrange and not a compression driver and has an honest efficiency spec. Klipsch was/is notorious for doing "special" math to get some of their specs.


----------



## Mr_Movie_dog

Touchy, touchy you are and can’t read well either, I said SEEM I didn’t say they ARE the same! And as I stated prior specs definitely don’t tell all in the audio world.

So since you didn’t state you heard the Klipsch and didn’t really answer my question I’ll have to assume your opinion is just that and not based on good experience. That is fine I was just hoping you could add something to the difference in the two sound environments since I can’t knock or appreciate your speakers never having a chance to listen to them.

Also you can say whatever you want about Klipsch specs but demo them against other speakers in a good room will tell the real story which I've done with many different systems and that is the true test, Klipsch were some of the best speakers I've tested for use with smaller amplifiers and keeping the speaker price down below $10K.


----------



## thehatedguy

I could think of a ton of high efficiency speakers I would get before Klipsch...and below 10 grand.

Those 2 systems don't SEEM anything a like...other than being a 3 way horn loaded speaker system. Completely different drivers in both size and type, different horn expansions, physical size, cost...etc.

I've heard the Klipsch. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have said that. Not my cup of tea.


----------



## Ricci

Nice discussion here. I'm planning on doing a small 30hz TH with a single 10" driver this summer to see what the fuss is about. 

Has anybody seen the new Danley subs coming out? The TH221 is a friggin BEAST!

PSW Sound Reinforcement Forums: LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => New Danley Sub


----------



## chad

Disgusted with the output of the current subwoofage I have in one of my rooms that the ****ing consultant recommended and specd, we are going to be bringing some Danley products in for audition this summer.


----------



## thehatedguy

I built a 30 hertz TH for an IDQ12...was insane. Wasn't small though.


----------



## 60ndown

here's an idea, if someone who knows wtf they are doing designs and sells plans for a horn loaded subwoofer.....modd it.


not.

build to plans.

right a$$hole?


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> Disgusted with the output of the current subwoofage I have in one of my rooms that the ****ing consultant recommended and specd, we are going to be bringing some Danley products in for audition this summer.


before you do that build a couple decware designs.

wo32 and teh housewrecker, to plans.

only cost you $100 in mdf.

for both.


----------



## chad

I would shred both in this 1500 seat room


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> I would shred both in this 1500 seat room


"contempt prior to investigation"

there is no way you can have any idea if your statement is true until you try them 

"This enclosure will properly load rooms between 144 sq. ft. and 3200 sq. ft. with extremely serious bass. Enough to cause minor damage in homes"

its true that more then 1 might be required, but thats also true for most subs in large rooms.

chadzina, one day you have to try one of steves designs, shure you have your doubts, but bass has been my passion for 20+ years, ive played with ALL steves designs and regular subwoofers, all steves work very well, the wo32 (fastest lowest most accurate bass ive EVER heard)and housewrecker(mine filled my GARDEN with amazing bass on 100 watts.) are EXTRODINARY animals.

i built mine with $60 drivers, and they both compete with anything ive EVER heard....and win.

please build both.


----------



## SSSnake

So what about the Gedlees? Has anyone on here actually heard them? Not a true horn but I would love to see the Gedlee waveguide on a compression driver mated to a horn loaded bass driver (assuming you can get the radiation pattern correct at the xover freq).

If I ever get my car finished I might just give it a shot.


----------



## chad

And I'm KNOWN for my ability to make huge low end live and I know what does it, and I can tell you one ting. A ****ing WO32 is like a fart in a Iraqi Sandstorm compared to KF940's, Turbosound horns, Martin horns, Bassmaxx horns, etc, because if they weren't, I'd have been touring with them 15 years ago 

Yes I question his ability to say that a horn MOTOR will load to what he says it will in free-space, and no, I'm not afraid to try them sometime IN MY GARAGE and even experiment with additional flaring, but I would wager a bet that those poor little drivers would last about one measure at truly live levels.

Now, the housewrecker OTOH, There ARE professional versions of subs much like that, people seem to be afraid of large bandpass enclosures because small ones in cars are so narrow banded. I would THINK ABOUT trying one if the math were behind his designs other than "build it and stick anything in it and it will work" If I lived in CA I would have probably owned the one you were selling.


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> And I'm KNOWN for my ability to make huge low end live and I know what does it, and I can tell you one ting. A ****ing WO32 is like a fart in a Iraqi Sandstorm compared to KF940's, Turbosound horns, Martin horns, Bassmaxx horns, etc, because if they weren't, I'd have been touring with them 15 years ago
> 
> Yes I question his ability to say that a horn MOTOR will load to what he says it will in free-space, and no, I'm not afraid to try them sometime IN MY GARAGE and even experiment with additional flaring, but I would wager a bet that those poor little drivers would last about one measure at truly live levels.
> 
> Now, the housewrecker OTOH, There ARE professional versions of subs much like that, people seem to be afraid of large bandpass enclosures because small ones in cars are so narrow banded. I would THINK ABOUT trying one if the math were behind his designs other than "build it and stick anything in it and it will work" If I lived in CA I would have probably owned the one you were selling.


you cant know what a wo32 does or doesnt sound like, YOU have never heard 1.

i on the other hand know it can bounce the floor joists in my house on 50 watts. (a lot like an earthquake)



yvonne.


----------



## chad

But I can do enough math to discover that I would need a ****LOAD of them to make enough mouth area to equate to the effective mouth area of ONE tapped horn. OR to equate to the power handling needed to do the job. Steves fairy land ends with math, he forgot about math, the should work with DD, they don't believe in math either.


----------



## guitarsail

chad said:


> And I'm KNOWN for my ability to make huge low end live and I know what does it, and I can tell you one ting. A ****ing WO32 is like a fart in a Iraqi Sandstorm compared to KF940's, Turbosound horns, Martin horns, Bassmaxx horns, etc, because if they weren't, I'd have been touring with them 15 years ago
> .


Oh MotherofGod the KF940's are some bad mofos....


----------



## Ga foo 88

Tapped Horns

William Cowan's Homepage

Does anyone have any more sources for finished TH designs with full measurements of the final enclosure?

I am looking the the eminence lab 12 in a TH, if anyone has a link that would be great


----------



## chad

Ga foo 88 said:


> Tapped Horns
> 
> William Cowan's Homepage
> 
> Does anyone have any more sources for finished TH designs with full measurements of the final enclosure?
> 
> I am looking the the eminence lab 12 in a TH, if anyone has a link that would be great


I'm not sure that the lab12 is the best option, it was pretty much specifically designed to be used in the labHorn or other horn enclosures that deal with massive pressures.


----------



## Ga foo 88

What would be a suitable driver for a 12" version of a TH. I noticed on cownan's site he tried multiple peerless drivers in the same 30hz tapped horn.


----------



## chad

Go with cowan or ask thehatedguy, he has WAY more expierience with them than I do.


----------



## thehatedguy

diyAudio Forums - Collaborative Tapped horn project - Page 1

diyAudio Forums - Dual 8" tapped horn = TH-SPUD - Page 1

For Chad:

diyAudio Forums - LIVE SOUND Specific Tapped Horn thread... - Page 1


----------



## thehatedguy

I used a v2 IDQ12...had similar measurements to the Peerless he liked and I already had one on hand.

The efficiency gain was incredible. My plate amp was normally about 1/3rd of the way up when the sub was sealed. Put it in the TH, and I barely had the volume up 1/8th of the way. No loss in SQ either.



Ga foo 88 said:


> What would be a suitable driver for a 12" version of a TH. I noticed on cownan's site he tried multiple peerless drivers in the same 30hz tapped horn.


----------



## chad

You know butthead, that you are GREATLY tempting me to whip one up  That folded one in one of the earlier links looks too cool.


----------



## thehatedguy

I know...that folded one does look pretty darn sweet. They are painfully easy to build if you want to try a straight one out. William Cowan has a detailed drawing of a 12" 30 hertz TH on his site...just convert to proper English measurements and you will have it done quick.

On a side not, a few SPL guys are experimenting with TH enclosures with good results. The guys at T3 Audio are friends with Danley Sound Labs and have a TH for their demo van.


----------



## thehatedguy

And I don't know if you saw the links, but Danley is doing a TH with 2 21s in it...and one with 8 12s. Talk about filling a room with bass.

I bet if one could build say 3 THs and place them under the floors between the joists or rafters ala Dr. Geddes, you would have RECOCKULOUS amounts of bass...and you would never see the enclosures.


----------



## chad

I'm going shopping with Danley this summer, I'll bet the 2X21 would fit my needs, i just have to take stage measurements because it has to fit in an existing hole.

IF we do a shoot out do you want me to get ahold of you? Still within a few hours right?


----------



## thehatedguy

Sure...I'm about 4 hours away. The woman and I are expecting a lil one June 21st.


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> But I can do enough math to discover that I would need a ****LOAD of them to make enough mouth area to equate to the effective mouth area of ONE tapped horn. OR to equate to the power handling needed to do the job. Steves fairy land ends with math, he forgot about math, the should work with DD, they don't believe in math either.


your obviously too good at math to 'try' something designed by someone who has dedicated their life to great sound.



:shrug:


----------



## chad

thehatedguy said:


> Sure...I'm about 4 hours away. The woman and I are expecting a lil one June 21st.


well hell! CONGRATS!


----------



## chad

60ndown said:


> your obviously too good at math to 'try' something designed by someone who has dedicated their life to great sound.
> 
> 
> 
> :shrug:


Correct, because great sound in his room is not necessarily adequate for a 1500 seat venue.

When he gets a ****ing clue and builds an enclosure that I won't shread in 15 seconds IN MY APPLICATION I'll listen. you cannot defy the laws of physics. so therefore I'm not trusting a HORN MOTOR with a mouth the size of my ass and 2 10" woofers  My HF horns have a larger flare than that cocksucker.


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> Correct, because great sound in his room is not necessarily adequate for a 1500 seat venue.
> 
> When he gets a ****ing clue and builds an enclosure that I won't shread in 15 seconds IN MY APPLICATION I'll listen. you cannot defy the laws of physics. so therefore I'm not trusting a HORN MOTOR with a mouth the size of my ass and 2 10" woofers  My HF horns have a larger flare than that cocksucker.


ive read a paper he wrote, about how he levitated a carpet (with bass) with maybe 12 watts... rattled things off a neighbours shelf....from 200 feet, same 12 watts.

you have always used aggressive insulting language when you talk about mr deckert.

people are aggressive when they dont understand something because it threatens their reality..


you freely admit that you would 'blow **** up' 

then you need to start at the beginning chad,

turn the volume dial all the way counter clockwise, turn on equipment, turn volume up (clockwise) gently until you hear something that doesnt sound good.(distortion)

now back off a little.(good clean sound)


^ that is full volume without doing damage to the equipment 

im 45 years old chad, ive been to lots of BIG SOUND SYSTEM CONCERTS.(most of them sounded like ass imo)

and ive demoed $50,000 cars, and $150,000 rooms.

i know what sounds good.

steves designs work very well.

weather the math/physics makes sense to you or not.

but feel free to continue to believe that 50 x 18s and 100,000 rms and big mouths is the only way to get good bass in a big space.


its your back


----------



## chad

60ndown said:


> its your back


Let's see if this paints a lil bit clearer of a picture for you since you clearly don't understand the goals. This is the stage view of the room, there are 1500 seats in front of this including a balcony. Lots of cubic feet....... and just SOMETIMES I may have to keep up with the highlighted instrument 

This ain't pop music in your living room with an attempt to annoy your neighbour, it's the real-deal.











I don't need 50 18's and 100KW, i need a well built subwoofer that will work, and if you are in the area or driving thru bring a WO, I'll try it out against a real subwoofer.


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> Let's see if this paints a lil bit clearer of a picture for you since you clearly don't understand the goals. This is the stage view of the room, there are 1500 seats in front of this including a balcony. Lots of cubic feet....... and just SOMETIMES I may have to keep up with the highlighted instrument
> 
> This ain't pop music in your living room with an attempt to annoy your neighbour, it's the real-deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need 50 18's and 100KW, i need a well built subwoofer that will work, and if you are in the area or driving thru bring a WO, I'll try it out against a real subwoofer.


....:ears:


----------



## chad

60ndown said:


> ....:ears:


It's amazing, you should hear it in person. talk about 60Ndown!


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> It's amazing, you should hear it in person. talk about 60Ndown!


what is amazing, is that you are 90 minutes (?) from decware, you could easily call him, tell him you would like to bring a couple cds over and listen to his demo rig.

but you dont.

what you do do, is say that the math is no good, so it cant sound good.:laugh:

i have a feeling if you did visit decware, your whole understanding of what sounds 'right' would change. 

a closed mind is a wonderful thing to lose.

ill pay gas, you go.


blah blah blah too busy pass the 18s


----------



## lilmike

....now to interrupt your regularly scheduled debate....

Back to the tapped horns - 

I've designed, built, and measured 4 different tapped horn enclosures now (I know - woohoo - like this makes me some sort of expert), the latest was detailed in the collaborative thread over on diyaudio mentioned earlier - around page 120 or so. I also helped others with their designs, most of which worked out well. I know a little bit about tapped horns. 

My latest TH used 4 6-inch Tang-band drivers and absolutely mopped the floor with the Velodyne 12 it replaced. In the same room the TH was +15 dB at 30 Hz and +10 dB @ 20 Hz relative to the Velodyne. Max. SPL with the TH was in excess of my meter (over 126 dB), the Velodyne hit 115. This was designed for home theater/music use - NOT PA.

In a nutshell - these things work. If you can measure the parameters of the driver(s) you have, simulate and design the enclosure appropriately, then build what you've designed and simulated, things should be close to the predictions.

They are not as efficient as a front-loaded horn. They may play louder down low, but once the FLH hits the passband the TH simply can not keep up. No free lunch here either. This is a secondary issue in home/car use, where space available is the primary constraint.

Are they magic - no. Just like any other speaker on the face of this planet - physics wins. 

Are they a simple build that can deliver the goods? Depends on what you're after. Some of mine have sucked, some kicked butt. All taught me something to use on the next one.

The Lab12 has several nice designs for a TH. The TB W8-740C and W6-1139SI do as well. There are a number of designs for the Eminence 3015LF too. All are documented over on DIYAudio.

Would any of these be appropriate for what Chad's trying to do? Depends on the rest of the story. Danley makes the best I am aware of, none of these are quite there yet. 

...now back to your regularly scheduled programming...


----------



## lilmike

Ga foo 88 said:


> Tapped Horns
> 
> William Cowan's Homepage
> 
> Does anyone have any more sources for finished TH designs with full measurements of the final enclosure?
> 
> I am looking the the eminence lab 12 in a TH, if anyone has a link that would be great


diyAudio Forums - Collaborative Tapped horn project - Page 90

Several have built this one with good results.


----------



## Ricci

Chad,

Concerning your audition of the Danley stuff. Have you heard any of it yet? Did you look at the link to Prosoundweb I posted for the TH221? Not sayin that you should look at that model for your own gear. They are expensive as hell and overkill for everything basically, but it looks like it's friggin incredible.

It's 2 of the B&C 21SW150's in what looks to be an 18hz TH. *It has a 1 meter 2.83v sensitivity of 103db at 20hz outdoors in a field and is rated at 3000w rms, 6000w program. It's about -3db at 23hz, -6db at 20hz and -10db at 17hz. Again this is at 1 meter outdoors. *

I'll leave it to you to figure out the math on all of that and what will happen when you put it in an enclosed space and give it a bit of boundary gain.  Danley has said that it more than equals 4 TH50's in output and one of those is sick. They use just 4 of those TH50's for a giant Imax install in Chicago. 

I'll not comment on the comparison of the Decaware stuff to this kind of thing. To each their own.


----------



## chad

I have not contacted tom yet, kinda waiting on this semester to roll out and to get the room back in my hands. He's just a couple hours north of here so I'm sure a shoot-out is a certain possibility.


----------



## cubdenno

Hell 60, send me the plans and I will build it and let Chad try it out. I am thinking about getting one of Pete Kulicki's horn designs, building it and letting Chad try it as well. Maybe get some DD speakers to load it with...


----------



## chad

Aw man, you'd be getting a call about now for beer time if my garage weren't trashed with lawn tractors 

You don't want me sitting in a car right now, I'm funk from head to toe


----------



## cubdenno

Awww I appreciate the thought. Got kids in bed and wife at work. That reminds me I need to get my lawn tractor ready. And the roto-tiller.


----------



## chad

Grafting 2 into one as a freebie for the boy to drive, it's time he do it, cutting mowing time in half FTMFW.

Sliding the deck in now and I'm DUN, then it's time to make a computer UPS run off of and charge a car battery


----------



## guitarsail

Ricci said:


> It's 2 of the B&C 21SW150's in what looks to be an 18hz TH. *It has a 1 meter 2.83v sensitivity of 103db at 20hz outdoors in a field and is rated at 3000w rms, 6000w program. It's about -3db at 23hz, -6db at 20hz and -10db at 17hz. Again this is at 1 meter outdoors. *


these are similar #'s to the KF940....


To this day, the craziest bass/impact/kick/ baddass system i've ever heard was a Clair rig...I remember it was one of my first "big" gigs at a 5000seat monster church in Florida, and clair rolled in with 4 tops 2 a side...and 4 measely looking 4'x4'x4' single 18" sub cabinets... and I remember asking the clair guy...is that all your PA??? Thats not enough!!!!.....:shame::loser1:
I remember leaving the back of the auditorium 300+ feet away while he was tuning and thinking "man, thats not enough PA"....

I walked back in 15minutes later while he was playing music and literally got the breathe sucked out of me from the impact of those 4 single 18" cabs... my pant legs were moving from the air at 300+ feet away... to this day I'll never forget how much impact was coming off those 4 tops and 4 bottoms....

but those wo32's would die in a live show as apposed to nice and tamed recorded music  They look nice for a large listening room/theatre or what not..but if there is live music involved...its just SUCH a different beast.


and chad, when you start a'demoing, can I come listen too?


----------



## cubdenno

I would like to see the W36 with a couple of good ol' large Xmax drivers. And from some late night reading on horns and how they couple or in large rooms how they won't, I get the whole throat/mouth sized reasoning. Also it makes a lot of sense now why horn enclosures in a car ar small. its a horn in another enclosure. Man I am tired. I am angry that YOU people kept me awake with this crap!!


----------



## thehatedguy

I think you may have it backwards. You need a sufficient air volume to load a throat of the horn. The larger the room, the more air you have to load the throats. Also ideally you should be atleast a full wave length away from the lowest frequency of the horn for your listening position. That's why you really can't do midbass horns in near field- car or home.


----------



## chad

guitarsail said:


> To this day, the craziest bass/impact/kick/ baddass system i've ever heard was a Clair rig..
> and chad, when you start a'demoing, can I come listen too?


That's probably because hey had S4's for tops and those will knock you blind by themselves 

Hopefully this summer, I gotta talk to the money-people.



thehatedguy said:


> I think you may have it backwards. You need a sufficient air volume to load a throat of the horn. The larger the room, the more air you have to load the throats. Also ideally you should be atleast a full wave length away from the lowest frequency of the horn for your listening position. That's why you really can't do midbass horns in near field- car or home.


That's why in a lot of rooms most carry front-loaded cabs for versatility. Horns need to "develop."


----------



## guitarsail

I believe they were the S4...just a boring but large rectangal shaped unassiming box. I want to know what kind of stupid engineering is going on inside those cabs...besides JBL drivers...


----------



## SUX 2BU

Very interesting discussion. It's got me kicking around an idea of putting a WO32 with a pair of old skool Blues 10's front-firing in the trunk of my Cavalier commuter. I'd seal off the front of the cabinet from the trunk though. Good idea or no?


----------



## chad

You would remember an S4 if it was them.... Clair Bros. S4 for Sale - Metalworks Production Group - The Live Event Company - Mississauga, Ontario, Canada


----------



## Oliver

Try it SUX 2BU 

and Luke....

STOP BEATING THAT HORSE *!*
quote>
what is amazing, is that you are 90 minutes (?) from decware, you could easily call him, tell him you would like to bring a couple cds over and listen to his demo rig.

but you dont.

what you do do, is say that the math is no good, so it cant sound good.
quote>


----------



## guitarsail

chad said:


> You would remember an S4 if it was them.... Clair Bros. S4 for Sale - Metalworks Production Group - The Live Event Company - Mississauga, Ontario, Canada


Nope, not them...they are rectangular...looks like square line array cabs... You know it kinda looked like the R4, but were hanging LA style,....2 to a side so they definitely were not line arrays, but hung in that manor...looked alot like an R4....

Damn to this day i still shake my head thinking about how stupid those 8 cabs were in that HUGE venue...

I mean...clothes shaking at 300+ft


----------



## blamus

I've just started reading up on bass horns, got very interested in Bill Fitzmaurine's Tuba designs. Mainly due to its high performance, low cost and easy to build.

Tuba HT

I'd like to understand more and possibly design my own one day. Can someone explain to me, (or point me to some links where I can read about) the different types of bass horns available, and their differences? For example, whats the difference between Bill's horn designs where the rear of the driver is sealed in a very small space, compared to the tapped horn designs discussed here on Cowan's site. 

William Cowan's Homepage
Tapped Horns

Also, how do the T/S parameters of a driver relate to bass horn design? I understand the T/S affect normal sealed/vented alignments, but what about horns? How does one start to choose a suitable driver for horns? And generally speaking, how much more output can one get at the useful passband of a sub when a driver is put into a simple tapped horn designed like the one on Cowan's site as compared to the normal sealed/ported design?

I'd really like to learn


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## hayden

I thought I might add my experiences. I built a couple tapped horns (using Danley's TH-Spud as an inspiration) and can only say that they are extremely impressive. It isn't just the amount of output you get (which is silly), but it is the effortless bass that you get from these designs that is the most impressive.


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## thehatedguy

Firstly, a tapped horn is not a real horn. THs are more akin to a transmission line, which could also be thought of like a really clever way to do a ported enclosure. Tapped horns, t-lines. and tqwts (or voigt pipes) all make more efficient use of the back wave compared to a ported enclosure...and tapped horns probably are the more efficient of the cousins.

For reading on how horns work and driver selection, read all of Dr. Edgar's articles on volvotreter. There is also a great amount of knowledge on DIYaudio and the high efficiency section on Audio Asylum.

You have to remember there are no free lunches when dealing with physics. You can only gain so much output over a given bandwidth. You can get more gain at the expense of bandwidth (same is true for speaker design too). The more gain you want from the enclosure, the more narrow it's passband becomes.



blamus said:


> I've just started reading up on bass horns, got very interested in Bill Fitzmaurine's Tuba designs. Mainly due to its high performance, low cost and easy to build.
> 
> Tuba HT
> 
> I'd like to understand more and possibly design my own one day. Can someone explain to me, (or point me to some links where I can read about) the different types of bass horns available, and their differences? For example, whats the difference between Bill's horn designs where the rear of the driver is sealed in a very small space, compared to the tapped horn designs discussed here on Cowan's site.
> 
> William Cowan's Homepage
> Tapped Horns
> 
> Also, how do the T/S parameters of a driver relate to bass horn design? I understand the T/S affect normal sealed/vented alignments, but what about horns? How does one start to choose a suitable driver for horns? And generally speaking, how much more output can one get at the useful passband of a sub when a driver is put into a simple tapped horn designed like the one on Cowan's site as compared to the normal sealed/ported design?
> 
> I'd really like to learn


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