# Should I invest my money into getting the best tweeter over the midrange?



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

While working out plans for an install, I have a question.

In the execution of a three-way front stage, who is the more important driver - a tweeter or the small format midrange (4" and below).

A. Should I invest my money into getting the best tweeter over the midrange? Why?

B. Or get the best midrange driver first over the tweeter? Why?

At times it is expensive to do both and stay inside a budget, respectively - it is a battle.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Thoughts!


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

IMO the midrange covers frequencies that are MUCH more important to reproduce accurately for our listening pleasure then the tweeter. 

While clearly a decent tweeter is important as well, there are any number of affordable silk dome tweeters that can do the job for a reasonable expense that still complement the midrange.

My advice is to spend money on an excellent midrange first then swap to a bette tweeter when you have the funds.


----------



## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

Definately the midrange imho...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Thank you so much!!!


----------



## e39 touring (Oct 19, 2012)

One of the benefits of building a 3way is the tweeter doesn’t need to play as low. Typically, a lower cost tweeter will do just fine. Spend the coin on the midrange.
I found a deal on a pair of Thiel (Scanspeak) 10f/8424G’s for my midrange duty.
Used an old set of CDT DRT25ti for tweets.
JBL 660GTI for midbass!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

In a car, how much above 5k are you really hearing while driving? I'd be surprised to hear a 3" mid that cant mate up to something cheap like a dayton nd20/nd16. That would get you by while evaluating midrange performance.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Thank you so much!!!


----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

I’ve wondered this exact thing also.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Ssopus said:


> I’ve wondered this exact thing also.



For me personally, when you are achieving the best in-car audio - according to your budget, it's costly to reach for the BEST of both worlds.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Feb 12, 2017)

It's always in your best interest to pick the best midrange you can afford. Human hearing is most sensitive within the midrange, we notice the most distortion within midrange frequencies, and above all, the bulk of virtually any music track has the largest percentage of notes / tones at midrange frequencies. 

Almost every modern music track is similar to a bell curve. Some low end, some high end, but proportionately speaking, the bulk of the track is at midrange frequencies.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's always in your best interest to pick the best midrange you can afford. Human hearing is most sensitive within the midrange, we notice the most distortion within midrange frequencies, and above all, the bulk of virtually any music track has the largest percentage of notes / tones at midrange frequencies.
> 
> Almost every modern music track is similar to a bell curve. Some low end, some high end, but proportionately speaking, the bulk of the track is at midrange frequencies.


I'm jumping on the midrange band wagon too.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> While working out plans for an install, I have a question.
> 
> In the execution of a three-way front stage, who is the more important driver - a tweeter or the small format midrange (4" and below).
> 
> ...


I replied to your question when you first posted it. However, I don't see my response for some reason.

I've been evaluating a lot of midranges and tweeters over the last few months. Here is my opinion.

The difference in midrange quality is profound. There is quite a bit of difference between moderate cost midranges and top tier. This is where you want to invest to make the biggest difference in performance (you may want to consider keeping those Scan 12m's).

There is a lot of difference in tweeters as well. However, the difference is not as much cost driven as it is design and materials, I've heard a $100 tweeter sound 90% as good as a $550 tweeter.

Midranges cover the entire vocal range and most instruments. This is where you should place your focus. Tweeters fill in the overtones. Their function is secondary. Improve these where you can.

Ge0


----------



## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

What Geo said really.

Human hearing has 10 octaves of range 20-20k, with each octave being a doubling of frequency. The last two octaves being 5-10k and 10-20k, like a piano not much is actually played on those last far right keys.

However every sound has harmonics that give it it's timbre and those are multiples of the primary frequency, these will be in these upper orders and will contribute to makeing the sound natural.

Natural conclusion is to get the mid right, this voice of the system.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Midrange first always. 

Human ear is most sensitive from 240-2,400hz where the major formants of the male voice are with 3khz coming in to play when singing but much above that is all harmonics and timbre (which is equally important to get right but much easier.) You can get a good silk dome tweeter from Dayton for $15/ea that if you have a REALLY good midrange will blow your mind at how good it will sound. 

I chose my 6x9s by specifically listening for the midrange capability knowing that it might be a few years before I get around to building a-pillars for dedicated mids.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Ge0 said:


> (you may want to consider keeping those Scan 12m's


I knew you were cool for some reason!!!! hahahahha


----------



## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

I've got a Dynaudio Esotar 430 on way as my mid, with the cheaper MD102 over and MD172 underneath, managed by DSP and discretely amped.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I went a different way for my car, I went with the best budget hard come mid I’d seen with the ceramic sb acoustics after erins review, and then a beryllium tweeter so I had excellent low distortion midrange and a fantastic tweeter also £650 for the set covers 130-30khz realistically

It all depends on your budget... sb29rdnc c0004 tweeters are excellent for 100 dollars a pair and an sb mfc mid of whatever size to go with (just watch the cone break up peaks higher up!) for £230 for four drivers and I would run them if I didn’t have the budget for the berylliums


----------



## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-04 4" woofer


SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-04 4" woofer




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





So, something like this would be good due to the ceramic cone ?


----------



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

It seems almost unanimous that the midrange is the priority driver - and I would agree.

Here is my experience;

I had an AudioFrog GB40 paired with a GB10 in my front stage - and it sounded fantastic.
Then I upgraded the tweeter to a Sinfoni Tempo 10 - and it was marginally better (but not substantial).
Then I upgraded the mid to an Esotar 430 - and the sound was most definitely substantially improved.
Then I upgraded the tweeter to a Focal TBM - and it was in improvement over the Tempo 10 (but not as noticable as when I swapped the mids).
The original GB40 / GB10 set in now used as rear fill...


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

jimmydee said:


> It seems almost unanimous that the midrange is the priority driver - and I would agree.
> 
> Here is my experience;
> 
> ...


when you have these margin adjustments do you have consider going backwards with your tweeter?


----------



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> when you have these margin adjustments do you have consider going backwards with your tweeter?


I'm not sure I understand your question...


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

As you upgraded the tweeter and it came off to be marginal updates. Did you ever want to back to the tweeter you started with? Verse the tweeter you advanced to?


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm always amazed by the cost of car audio drivers when you think of home audio speakers costing over 50k and using drivers that generally cost less than $75 each.


----------



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> As you upgraded the tweeter and it came off to be marginal updates. Did you ever want to back to the tweeter you started with? Verse the tweeter you advanced to?


No. Not once. Ever.

Everyone has a different threshold for what is important / vs what is value... 
And for me; an upgrade (of any margin) is an upgrade, and I've always been happy with that.


----------



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Total aside from the original question, but;
You (the OP) already had one of the best midrange AND tweeters available, when you had the Brax Matrix set, about a month ago.
You should have installed them... not sold them.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

jimmydee said:


> No. Not once. Ever.
> 
> Everyone has a different threshold for what is important / vs what is value...
> And for me; an upgrade (of any margin) is an upgrade, and I've always been happy with that.



makes sense!!!


----------



## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Howdy Huck, While I fully agree with the Midrange being crucial, I'm gonna suggest a slightly different path, one that you can do in steps and NOT have to sell stuff (losing money) to upgrade:

I say find the best 2-way set you you can afford then install it, play it, listen to it and then later, when you have the money to invest, buy/install your Mids. This is assuming you are running an Active system,

Example: Focal makes a 3-way set (ES 165KX3) that sells for $2,300 (Crutchfield), which is $300 MORE than the Utopia 2-way set (165W-XP). The 3-way set has a Mid, however, the Woofer and Tweeter and both inferior to the Utopia Woofer and Tweeter, so if you were to purchase the Utopia set and add a Mid later, you would have a much better sounding system in the end, with less hassle and not losing money swapping out tweeters or mids!


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Muu said:


> What Geo said really.
> 
> Human hearing has 10 octaves of range 20-20k, with each octave being a doubling of frequency. The last two octaves being 5-10k and 10-20k, like a piano not much is actually played on those last far right keys.
> 
> ...


Wish I had thought of saying this 

Ge0


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Muu said:


> I've got a Dynaudio Esotar 430 on way as my mid, with the cheaper MD102 over and MD172 underneath, managed by DSP and discretely amped.


I love the E430's but personally would not pair them with the MD102's. I found the MD102's are a little too laid back for my taste.










Here are a few awesome combo's but a little pricey:


















The MT171 tweeter from the Esotan component set was quite a surprise. A very nice and detailed tweeter for a reasonable cost:









It's no secret what my favorite budget tweeter is though:







\\










Ge0


----------



## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Find the good midrange speakers first. Then find/try some air motion (AMT) tweeters (Parts Express etc website), or ribbon/planar etc too.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> ...
> It's no secret what my favorite budget tweeter is though:
> Ge0


For those of us not versed in tweeter porn, can you put a brand/model with this? ;-)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Just for sh!ts-n-giggles I decided to get out my $30 eBay special Alpine ring radiators to see how they fare in comparison to some of the other models I've been listening to.

2pcs pair alpine vifa XT25 28MM dome Nd magnet car audio hifi tweeter 4ohm100W | eBay 

Holy [email protected] are these things surprising! Nice and musical with tons of layered detail. Perhaps even as good as my beloved Scan D3004's. Heck, they are even close to matching the performance of the Morel Piccolo's.

Here is a great budget combo for you folks. Scan 10F and Alpine eBay specials:


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

daloudin said:


> For those of us not versed in tweeter porn, can you put a brand/model with this? ;-)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Sorry. I thought it was obvious. But then I'm a bit biased.

ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeter Textile Dome (madisoundspeakerstore.com) 

Just so you are aware the tweeters pictured in my post from the top down were:

Dynaudio MD-102
Morel Supremo Piccolo
ScanSpeak D3004Beryllium domes
Dynaudio MT171
ScanSpeak D3004 silk dome

Ge0


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> I'm always amazed by the cost of car audio drivers when you think of home audio speakers costing over 50k and using drivers that generally cost less than $75 each.


I would likely hope a tweeter in a 50k speaker was beryllium perhaps... hardly a 75 dollar speaker, and caps and inductors can run into 1000’s for a three or 4 way crossover per speaker...

And the r&d can take months and more 1000’s of pounds worth of crossover components... for a speaker that sells maybe 100 pairs or less... I think the money is sometimes a bit ott, but when you break it down like that it’s not the sum of its parts, just like a porsche isn’t... after all it only metal and plastic when broken down 😉


----------



## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> Just for sh!ts-n-giggles I decided to get out my $30 eBay special Alpine ring radiators to see how they fare in comparison to some of the other models I've been listening to.
> 
> 2pcs pair alpine vifa XT25 28MM dome Nd magnet car audio hifi tweeter 4ohm100W | eBay
> 
> ...


I love these tweeters. Been wanting to go with AF mids and tweets but the $$$ stops me in my tracks










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

dumdum said:


> I would likely hope a tweeter in a 50k speaker was beryllium perhaps... hardly a 75 dollar speaker, and caps and inductors can run into 1000’s for a three or 4 way crossover per speaker...
> 
> And the r&d can take months and more 1000’s of pounds worth of crossover components... for a speaker that sells maybe 100 pairs or less... I think the money is sometimes a bit ott, but when you break it down like that it’s not the sum of its parts, just like a porsche isn’t... after all it only metal and plastic when broken down 😉


i wasn't speaking to caps, coils or R&D...i know those things are all more of an expense to the builder than the drivers are. A lot of high end speakers use some form of the vifa 25 tweeter, hardly beryllium. And obviously not all speaker companies do this, i was just making a general comment.


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Ge0 said:


> Sorry. I thought it was obvious. But then I'm a bit biased.
> 
> ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeter Textile Dome (madisoundspeakerstore.com)
> 
> ...


Don't know man, friend of mine bought those alpife/xifa xxt25 stlye tweeters and wasn't so impressed,
By the way we heard almost the whole list of tweeters u listed here.

To compare them to the morel piccolos? u got to be kiddin 😂🤣

and to the question of the article:
i would say mid too, it's got the most important freqs, all the vocals.
But u got the give it a good match.
So if u chose i mid that can play very high lets say 6-5k/12,
better match it with a small diameter tweeter(25-18mm voice coil) so you will got a faster tweeter(cuz of the smaller diameter) and more detial on higher freq(12K+).


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DeLander said:


> SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-04 4" woofer
> 
> 
> SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-04 4" woofer
> ...


How does a ceramic cone help?


----------



## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

lucas569 said:


> I love these tweeters. Been wanting to go with AF mids and tweets but the $$$ stops me in my tracks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’ve had a set of those in my truck with silver flutes for 3 years. I’m going to order another set to pair with audiofrog gs 60 in my car.


----------



## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Do I agree with everyone else in my rational brain that the mid-range is the most important ? Well, yes I do. Of course, obviously - it covers the primary hearing range and usually the most octaves of all drivers. 

But in my heart - I've changed mid-ranges without a huge improvement. But I've changed tweeters and heard magic. 
Now, granted I can't even hear above 10k, and if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a tweeter I'm going to get something out of it. This combined with listening tests has me running my tweeters down to 2500-2800kHz. If you are running tweeters at 5k and above, this may not apply. 

A good mid-range is the foundation but a great tweeter can be incredible.

So clearly you should spend your budget on both !
And having heard some of your goals, I also cannot imagine why you are trying to sell those 12m's unless its to replace them with something even better. 

Ge0 so looking forward to your reviews. Since you are also a fan of the Scan D3004, very interested to hear your take on the belly vs silk versions as well.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Kalmangar said:


> Don't know man, friend of mine bought those alpife/xifa xxt25 stlye tweeters and wasn't so impressed,
> By the way we heard almost the whole list of tweeters u listed here.
> 
> To compare them to the morel piccolos? u got to be kiddin 😂🤣
> ...


You and your "friend" are entitled to have your opinion. You were quick to discount my opinion. Perhaps you can elaborate more on your findings. 

It just so happens that I have quite a few tweeters I can directly compare. 

Out of curiosity I've been listening to both the Piccolo and the Alpine SPX PRO throughout most of the day. The SPX PRO has a very similar tonal signature to the Piccolo as I mentioned. Surprisingly similar to be exact. 

But, the SPX PRO lacks a layer of fine detail. It's hard to beat the Piccolo in that respect. So no, the SPX Pro is not a direct competitor to a $950 set of tweeters. But, for $30 a set it's a h3ll of a lot better than many others I've tried over the course of the last 3 weeks.

And to think I bought the SPX PRO's as a curious joke. I never tried them up until this morning...


----------



## e39 touring (Oct 19, 2012)

Speaking of low cost tweeters....Anybody try those NOS MTX Golds for $20?
Sold out on eBay recently?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Both drivers equal each other tweeter and midrnage... There is no way out. You get a great mid-range but low grade tweeter, you bottle neck will be your top end, you go lower on midrnage and you find yourself looking for something else again... It never ends... If you know what you are looking for... Stick to you plan, and get the best for the money you could get and get a proper install done.. 

Do it right the first time not like Many of us here taste waters because they are looking for a sweet spot. I think once you get to a high level. Only thing is stopping u is tune and install. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

preston said:


> Ge0 so looking forward to your reviews. Since you are also a fan of the Scan D3004, very interested to hear your take on the belly vs silk versions as well.


Spoiler alert.

As much as I wanted to think the Be was superior to the Silk version I did not. The Be was SUPER detailed. However, it threw that detail right in your face. There was no subtly. To the point where I didn't find them musical. I found them fatiguing. The D3004 Silk is not as detailed but is better balanced.

In comparison the Morel Supremo Piccolo offered just as much detail. However, it balances its detail much better. Mind you, they also cost a little more


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

e39 touring said:


> Speaking of low cost tweeters....Anybody try those NOS MTX Golds for $20?
> Sold out on eBay recently?
> 
> 
> ...


Why would we? Have you heard them? What is your opinion?


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> Spoiler alert.
> 
> As much as I wanted to think the Be was superior to the Silk version I did not. The Be was SUPER detailed. However, it threw that detail right in your face. There was no subtly. To the point where I didn't find them musical. I found them fatiguing. The D3004 Silk is not as detailed but is better balanced.
> 
> In comparison the Morel Supremo Piccolo offered just as much detail. However, it balances its detail much better. Mind you, they also cost a little more


Loving this comparison as I'm in total agreement. Listened to 2 different Beryllium tweeters that were supposed to be the climax of high end according to some friends and was severely disappointed. I'm a silk dome fanatic though (a/d/s home speakers) and have yet to find anything (for my ears) that I like better. 

Curious, are you doing off axis comparisons as well? 

Secondly (feel free to say no thx as shipping these will cost almost as much as they're worth and I don't want to waste ur time) can I send you some Dayton Neo soft domes to add to ur comparison (ND25FN-4 NIB & ND20FB-4 hot glued in WK2 sail panel grills) or would it be sacrilegious to compare a $15 tweeter to a Piccolo?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

daloudin said:


> Loving this comparison as I'm in total agreement. Listened to 2 different Beryllium tweeters that were supposed to be the climax of high end according to some friends and was severely disappointed. I'm a silk dome fanatic though (a/d/s home speakers) and have yet to find anything (for my ears) that I like better.
> 
> Curious, are you doing off axis comparisons as well?
> 
> ...


Beryllium tweeter just need a good tune but if they tune right they sound waayyy better then silk dome.
Plus the beryllium has some "metallic" characteristic to it which not everybody will like.
The dome will sound more "airy" in my opinion.

heared the d3004 dome,ring radiator and beryllium.
personily the beryllium was the best but only when was tuned right,
cuz of the better transparency and detail.
but if u lazy and want something to sound sweet right out of the box yea go with the dome, he is more merciful.
but if we looking at the end - the system after if tuned - then agian *beryllium *


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Ge0 said:


> Spoiler alert.
> 
> As much as I wanted to think the Be was superior to the Silk version I did not. The Be was SUPER detailed. However, it threw that detail right in your face. There was no subtly. To the point where I didn't find them musical. I found them fatiguing. The D3004 Silk is not as detailed but is better balanced.
> 
> In comparison the Morel Supremo Piccolo offered just as much detail. However, it balances its detail much better. Mind you, they also cost a little more


I never like those scan 3004 Be tweeters, I owned a pair for a mere 1 song and sold them back and I usually don’t sell equipment but I was certain that they’ll never go back in any other setup that I’ll ever do, they were very detailed but sounded dark and unnatural, the silk dome sounded much more natural and pleasing IMO. I’m also not a fan of the piccolo because it has that detailed but not so natural sound, the md102’s are very very natural sounding but rolls off quickly “at least in the setup I had them in” but blended so easy to whatever mid you pair them with.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Mullings said:


> I never like those scan 3004 Be tweeters, I owned a pair for a mere 1 song and sold them back and I usually don’t sell equipment but I was certain that they’ll never go back in any other setup that I’ll ever do, they were very detailed but sounded dark and unnatural, the silk dome sounded much more natural and pleasing IMO. I’m also not a fan of the piccolo because it has that detailed but not so natural sound, the md102’s are very very natural sounding but rolls off quickly “at least in the setup I had them in” but blended so easy to whatever mid you pair them with.


What are your favorite tweeters?


----------



## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Holmz said:


> How does a ceramic cone help?








SB Acoustics SB17CAC35-4 6 Inch Ceramic Midwoofer Review


SB Acoustics SB17CAC35-4 6 Inch Ceramic Midwoofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com





Just extrapolating from this review. Seems like the ceramic cone in a smaller midrange would be good


----------



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Kalmangar said:


> Beryllium tweeter just need a good tune but if they tune right they sound waayyy better then silk dome.


Not sure I agree with this... and this is coming from a guy who has arguably, one of the best Beryllium tweeters money can buy.
In order for ANY driver to sound great, it needs to be tuned properly. 
My Focal TBM's sounded like harsh crap, without a proper tune... so did the Esotar 110's I tested (years ago).

In the end, there really is no such thing as 'best tweeter' or 'best midrange'. And to be honest; we are taking this thread way off track (sorry OP).
Sound is purely subjective, and some people prefer the strong attack that a beryllium tweeter offers, whereas some people (like me) prefer the tone of silk.

The OP's question was: what is more important; a good tweeter, or a good midrange.
I say; the high quality midrange will garner a more noticeable improvement... but that just my opinion, based on what I've experienced.


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

jimmydee said:


> Not sure I agree with this... and this is coming from a guy who has arguably, one of the best Beryllium tweeters money can buy.
> In order for ANY driver to sound great, it needs to be tuned properly.
> My Focal TBM's sounded like harsh crap, without a proper tune... so did the Esotar 110's I tested (years ago).


because of the transparency of a tweeter that made from Be it’s more noticeable and more needed to be tuned.
Normal dome silk tweeter are more “acceptable” without any tune, that/‘s my opinion.

it’s like focal tweeters without good tune u can throw them into garbage , but with a proper tune they sound very detailed.
On the other hand morel mt-230 right out of the box sound awesome, don’t need to be tuned much or at all in some cases.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Mullings said:


> I never like those scan 3004 Be tweeters, I owned a pair for a mere 1 song and sold them back and I usually don’t sell equipment but I was certain that they’ll never go back in any other setup that I’ll ever do, they were very detailed but sounded dark and unnatural, the silk dome sounded much more natural and pleasing IMO. I’m also not a fan of the piccolo because it has that detailed but not so natural sound, the md102’s are very very natural sounding but rolls off quickly “at least in the setup I had them in” but blended so easy to whatever mid you pair them with.


I feel like we are flooding Huck's thread with off topic discussion. I hope he doesn't mind too much. To me a natural sounding tweeter or midrange just disappears when you plug it in. The difference is immediately noticeable. Replicated sound becomes life like. 

I auditioned the Scan Be for two weeks. I could never get them to just blend in and disappear the way I wanted. No matter how much I fussed with felt diffractors or EQ. Sure, you can attenuate them but then you start losing ultra fine detail.

Here is where our opinions differ. I didn't know what to think about the Piccolo's at first. I tried them immediately following the Be's. The Piccolo's just disappeared. It was a significant change. At first I thought they lacked detail. But, the more I listened to them the more I found I was wrong. They are very detailed. However, they don't exaggerate that detail like the Scan's. The Piccolo's bring out fine detail at the proper time if that makes any sense.

The Piccolos were attenuated a little too much once I actually measured frequency response. I bumped their gain up a couple dB to flatten the response out and they came alive. A rich holographic sound. It might sound cheesy but that's the best way I can describe it. I had several other tweeters to evaluate but did not want to remove the Piccolos. They were THAT good.

As much as I want to like the MD102's I don't. They are too laid back for my taste. And yes, they do roll off quickly. I spent a lot of time comparing them with the Scan D3004 silk domes when paired with the E430 midrange. The Scans are a little more lively and have a greater level of detail than the MD102's. I thought the Scan's were a better paring with the E430's.

Now here is a real shocker. The Dyn Esotan MT171 is an awfully nice sounding tweeter that nobody talks about. The MT171's sound a lot like my Scan D3004's. They are more detailed and pleasant to my ears than the MD102's. However, the MT171's became a little harsh at higher volumes.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DeLander said:


> SB Acoustics SB17CAC35-4 6 Inch Ceramic Midwoofer Review
> 
> 
> SB Acoustics SB17CAC35-4 6 Inch Ceramic Midwoofer Review
> ...


There is a lot going on with speakers in the motor as well.
It is hard for me to separate out what the individual pieces are doing to contribute to the whole.


----------



## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

You do rapidly get into personal taste, I think Geo would like the drive and sparkle of a Naim system whereas I find them too brash, preferring the more laid back Linn stuff. Ultimately it's hard to know what you're about unless you've tried lots of things personally, especially back to back.


----------



## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Holmz said:


> There is a lot going on with speakers in the motor as well.
> It is hard for me to separate out what the individual pieces are doing to contribute to the whole.


Agree. But Erin really seems to like the larger model of this and says the smaller one should perform well as a dedicated midrange.

Also, the price isn't bad at all compared to others mentioned here.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Kalmangar said:


> Beryllium tweeter just need a good tune but if they tune right they sound waayyy better then silk dome.
> Plus the beryllium has some "metallic" characteristic to it which not everybody will like.
> The dome will sound more "airy" in my opinion.
> 
> ...


One set was in a pair of monitors that were custom made with very custom crossovers and they were "hyper accurate" in my case they came across as aggressive and shiny such that things like brushes on a cymbal or chimes became annoying. Not bad, just not my cup of tea. 

The other pair were in a very high end install that I was not really comfortable sitting in for a number of reasons and I was all too happy to give in to placating "wow - that's nice!" Even though they sounded like cheap metal domes and I'm pretty sure they were out of phase as well. So I really shouldn't hold that against Beryllium. 

Wish I could demo some properly tuned and installed ones versus the Piccolo and my all time favorite Morel MDT-33s that I heard in an older BMW pre DSP, no eq, custom passive crossovers and a/d/s powerplates that convinced me to buy them and build my own nearfield monitors. But the reality is that my hearing ain't what it once was and I'm perfectly content to live with "regular" silk domes now. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Niebur3 said:


> What are your favorite tweeters?


E110


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Looks like everybody think that mids are more important but on the other hand change tweeters like socks 😂

can’t admit that I ain’t the same


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

jimmydee said:


> Not sure I agree with this... and this is coming from a guy who has arguably, one of the best Beryllium tweeters money can buy.
> In order for ANY driver to sound great, it needs to be tuned properly.
> My Focal TBM's sounded like harsh crap, without a proper tune... so did the Esotar 110's I tested (years ago).


OK. So let's explore this statement. What is a "proper" tune?

Eliminating peaks?
Flattening response?
Rolling off response?
What did you do to eliminate harshness in these drivers?

Why didn't you take the "easy" route and just use silk domes that do not require tuning .


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Mullings said:


> E110


I like the e110. But tried the t380+ and they are amazing also.


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Kalmangar said:


> Looks like everybody think that mids are more important but on the other hand change tweeters like socks 😂
> 
> can’t admit that I ain’t the same


Actually I’m about to do some tweeter testing lol, I already know what mid/midbass, not so certain about sub yet but is 90% certain that I’ll stick with the ones I have now but for me, I only want my system to sound lifelike and not a lot of tweeters can pull that off so I have in my possession a pair of SS d3004-5520,SS d2904-600000, SS d2905-990000, Sinfoni Grandioso opus, focal tlr “these belong to Nick but I’ll strong arm him for them lol” and a few more but those are the ones I’ll pair with the mids first and close my eyes and whichever ones gets me lost in the music I’ll use or get back a set of E110. I hate texting but I must say this, it is very important what amp you use to convey that signal, often time people say that amplifier is amplifier and they don’t matter but true story, after I stripped everything out of the Prius the other day and was driving without sound for about a month I decided to just throw something in just to even listen to the news so I grabbed to first set of equipment I had under my toolbox, xcellsus mids, jl audio C3 tweeters, focal utopia midbass and focal utopia subs, McIntosh mc431 amps, only one could fit so I decided to not hook up midbass and just do mid/tweet only playing from 250hz-3000hz & 3000hz up, minor adjustments to balance everything and went on my way. While driving there were fine details in music that I listen to everyday that I heard but that Mac amp brings them across ultra clear, I didn’t have to listen for it like before, it’s just there, I’ll give a few examples in a minute.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Muu said:


> You do rapidly get into personal taste, I think Geo would like the drive and sparkle of a Naim system whereas I find them too brash, preferring the more laid back Linn stuff. Ultimately it's hard to know what you're about unless you've tried lots of things personally, especially back to back.


You can have "laid back" with plenty of detail. Better quality drivers can produce detail without sounding harsh. This is what I like.


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Mullings said:


> Actually I’m about to do some tweeter testing lol, I already know what mid/midbass, not so certain about sub yet but is 90% certain that I’ll stick with the ones I have now but for me, I only want my system to sound lifelike and not a lot of tweeters can pull that off so I have in my possession a pair of SS d3004-5520,SS d2904-600000, SS d2905-990000, Sinfoni Grandioso opus, focal tlr “these belong to Nick but I’ll strong arm him for them lol” and a few more but those are the ones I’ll pair with the mids first and close my eyes and whichever ones gets me lost in the music I’ll use or get back a set of E110. I hate texting but I must say this, it is very important what amp you use to convey that signal, often time people say that amplifier is amplifier and they don’t matter but true story, after I stripped everything out of the Prius the other day and was driving without sound for about a month I decided to just throw something in just to even listen to the news so I grabbed to first set of equipment I had under my toolbox, xcellsus mids, jl audio C3 tweeters, focal utopia midbass and focal utopia subs, McIntosh mc431 amps, only one could fit so I decided to not hook up midbass and just do mid/tweet only playing from 250hz-3000hz & 3000hz up, minor adjustments to balance everything and went on my way. While driving there were fine details in music that I listen to everyday that I heard but that Mac amp brings them across ultra clear, I didn’t have to listen for it like before, it’s just there, I’ll give a few examples in a minute.


SINFONI OPUS IS SOMETHING ELSE MAN
Heared some 10k dollar 3 way sets but this thing made me almost cry, i was shaking for 30 min after hearing this set without any eq, powered by brax dsp and brax amps.
I think it's the best car in Israel right now(small country heard almost every serious car in the commounity).
This thing is like sound from mars.

by the was heard brax ml, focal m series,focal n series,morel supeme ,morel carbon 3 way, scan gold 3 way and more and more.
The brax 3 way is not worth the money in my opinion only great great tweeters but a shamefull mids , heard it in many setups, and compare it many times at boxes.
The Xcelsus mids(the spiderless) are very very impressive and cost like 1/6 of the price of the brax and way better mids of the brax.
That is example of when your money not always gives you the pretties "lady", only captor you with a makeup(good markting).


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Kalmangar said:


> SINFONI OPUS IS SOMETHING ELSE MAN
> Heared some 10k dollar 3 way sets but this thing made me almost cry, i was shaking for 30 min after hearing this set without any eq, powered by brax dsp and brax amps.
> I think it's the best car in Israel right now(small country heard almost every serious car in the commounity).
> This thing is like sound from mars.
> ...


I’m tempted to send the xcellsus’s with the scan d2904-600000 to dethrone his best combination lol


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Mullings said:


> I’m tempted to send the xcellsus’s with the scan d2904-600000 to dethrone his best combination lol


Remember these little suckers?



















They are the Alpine F1 version of the D2904/6000-00. If I were to "find" a pair of 
Xcelsus xxm325 do you think this would be a close enough comparison to what you are recommending above? I want to cry like others have in this thread .

BTW, is there a USA distributor for Xcelsus or do I need to order a set from AU?


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Ge0 said:


> Remember these little suckers?
> View attachment 289847
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, not sure how similar they sound, I’m working on getting a US link for the xcelsus right now


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

I’ve tried the Xcelsus xxm325 with the d2004 and it was like ment to be , don’t know about the scans d2904 though.


By the way ge0 u can joke all day long but this car was special, Cadillac ATS with top of the line components and install.
He acutely designed and made mono amplifier for his tweeters class A.

Did u heard sinfoni opus at least?


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Ok here’s the link to the xcelsus dealer [email protected]


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Mullings said:


> Lol, not sure how similar they sound, I’m working on getting a US link for the xcelsus right now


So is your favorite midrange the focal utopia? And what's your fav tweeter for a 2 way system smaller than the e110?


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Mullings said:


> Ok here’s the link to the xcelsus dealer [email protected]


I probably should start a new thread with this so it doesn’t get lost in here


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Mullings said:


> I probably should start a new thread with this so it doesn’t get lost in here


Yep great products for good price at least here the mids are so impressive and also unique design spider-less.


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Patriot83 said:


> So is your favorite midrange the focal utopia? And what's your fav tweeter for a 2 way system smaller than the e110?


If I have to use a small format tweeter it’ll be the grandioso, scanspeak d2904-600000 or micro precision z studios, it’s kinda funny that those 3 sounds very similar but the z’s has more sparkle up top.


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Kalmangar said:


> Yep great products for good price at least here the mids are so impressive and also unique design spider-less.


Your ears aren’t fooling you, they’re really that good


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Kalmangar said:


> I’ve tried the Xcelsus xxm325 with the d2004 and it was like ment to be , don’t know about the scans d2904 though.
> 
> 
> By the way ge0 u can joke all day long but this car was special, Cadillac ATS with top of the line components and install.
> ...


Don't take my jokes personally. Just a bit of light hearted humor. You have to admit it sounds a little strange to hear someone cried when they listened to a car stereo . But that's just me. I cry when I overcook a Filet Mignon.

No, I have not heard the Sinfoni Opus yet. A driver on my list to buy if I can find a good deal on them. I'm also searching for a good deal on a set of Focal TBM's.

Then there are the Stereo integrity M3 and Xcelsus xxm325 midranges I would like to try.

I haven't compared my D2904 (Alpine variant) to my D2004 yet but figure I should.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Mullings said:


> Ok here’s the link to the xcelsus dealer [email protected]


Thank you Kevin.


----------



## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Kalmangar said:


> Yep great products for good price at least here the mids are so impressive and also unique design spider-less.


Your ears aren’t fooling you, they’re really that good


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Mullings said:


> I probably should start a new thread with this so it doesn’t get lost in here


We could move the conversation here:
A novices comparison between some pretty sweet midranges and tweeters | Page 3 | DiyMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum 

It's my thread that discusses the same topic. It may be more applicable


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Ge0 said:


> Don't take my jokes personally. Just a bit of light hearted humor. You have to admit it sounds a little strange to hear someone cried when they listened to a car stereo . But that's just me. I cry when I overcook a Filet Mignon.


Yep humor is good but never said i cried, i said that i was almost cry, like an expression, didn't really gone cry.
It just was so damm good.



Mullings said:


> Your ears aren’t fooling you, they’re really that good


yep legit and they made very good products,
now they're making a 6 ch competitive amp,
Which i hope will release soon, made here.
I don't know to forum rules yet so i would not post a link with info
but something promising here is a photo:








2 Class A for tweeters.
2 powerfull ch2 for woffers
2 ch for mids with less power

just everything a man can ask for a 3 way set from an amp.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Kalmangar said:


> Yep humor is good but never said i cried, i said that i was almost cry, like an expression, didn't really gone cry.
> It just was so damm good.
> 
> 
> ...


I am waiting for this amp to arrive here so I can test it... it does look good. The idea is that this amp will compete against the likes of Audiowave etc at a much cheaper price tag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Geo


Elektra said:


> I am waiting for this amp to arrive here so I can test it... it does look good. The idea is that this amp will compete against the likes of Audiowave etc at a much cheaper price tag.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With all the respect to this amp and it’s made by a very good friend of mine,
Audio wave is on another level but it’s only for pshychos cost to damm much.

I can take 1 to test it out but I’m just lazy to change my setup.

I though knowbody knows Xcelsus at USA/diymobile and this amp, I’m impressed.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Kalmangar said:


> Geo
> 
> 
> With all the respect to this amp and it’s made by a very good friend of mine,
> ...


I have a friend who has 2 Aspire pro dst amps - when I heard them on Utopia M drivers it didn’t blow me away and make me wanna run and buy them... my Brax sounds just fine in comparison to the AW’s 

I would need to listen again as now my Xcelsus mids are in and the car is sounding better than it has before so I would be curious in how the comparison goes... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

Elektra said:


> I have a friend who has 2 Aspire pro dst amps - when I heard them on Utopia M drivers it didn’t blow me away and make me wanna run and buy them... my Brax sounds just fine in comparison to the AW’s


yep and here we agian very very far a way from the orginal question of the thread 🤣
Acutely didn't got to hear or see AW amps here just got a lot of respect to this company and their product, maybe I'm wrong.

They both hand made.
The 6 ch sound phenomenal, hear him out like every Sunday (very good friend of mine is the maker again he has resolut T and RS-AUDIO Master).
Some people who've tested it with serious equipment at Russia where very impressed.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Kalmangar said:


> Geo
> 
> 
> With all the respect to this amp and it’s made by a very good friend of mine,
> ...


I've designed automotive electronics for over 20 years. I appreciate a good custom audio amplifier design. I designed and have built my own. 

But, you lose serious money with low volume manufacturing. So, I gave up that silly idea and decided to let others suffer the loss. I would be interested in hearing one of these custom amps if the price were right...


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Ge0 said:


> I've designed automotive electronics for over 20 years. I appreciate a good custom audio amplifier design. I designed and have built my own.
> 
> But, you lose serious money with low volume manufacturing. So, I gave up that silly idea and decided to let others suffer the loss. I would be interested in hearing one of these custom amps if the price were right...


I don’t think they will be expensive like Brax money - I think it’s like Audison Thesis money from what I am told - I could be wrong


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Elektra said:


> I don’t think they will be expensive like Brax money - I think it’s like Audison Thesis money from what I am told - I could be wrong
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would hope not. Audiotec Fischer needs to pay for an entire staff of 100's plus the building they are in to recoup their cost. A privateer only needs to recoup his manufacturing cost. That is assuming he gave his labor away free such as I did. You still lose money selling such product.

But, if you are the consumer only then maybe this does not concern you.


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Ge0 said:


> I would hope not. Audiotec Fischer needs to pay for an entire staff of 100's plus the building they are in to recoup their cost. A privateer only needs to recoup his manufacturing cost. That is assuming he gave his labor away free such as I did. You still lose money selling such product.
> 
> But, if you are the consumer only then maybe this does not concern you.


Audiotec Fischer stuff is a lot cheaper than you think... but you are correct they would need to move product to make money - also I hear this amp from Xcelsus is like the Bugatti Veyron they not looking to make money on it - it’s more for company image if I understand what guys are telling me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Kalmangar said:


> yep legit and they made very good products,
> now they're making a 6 ch competitive amp,
> Which i hope will release soon, made here.
> I don't know to forum rules yet so i would not post a link with info
> ...


@Kalmangar please share more details on the 6 channel Xcelsus amp. I have emailed Xcelsus inquiring but have yet to receive a reply. Posting a link is allowed but if you aren't comfortable doing it, pm the link please. Thanks, Dave


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Kalmangar said:


> now they're making a 6 ch competitive amp,
> Which i hope will release soon, made here.
> I don't know to forum rules yet so i would not post a link with info
> but something promising here is a photo:
> ...



Somehow I missed this, but it seems like you are saying they are making an integrated amplifier with staggered topology and power ratings for each pair of channels??

If so, IMO this is a long overdue amp design ...PLEASE do clarify and even post a link !!!


----------



## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

For me this is a great question but also a tough one. I will have a much better answer for you this week whenever I’m able to install my TBM tweeter. WM mid range made a GIGANTIC difference going from a very well rounded mid in Mille legend to the WM 3.5” it was such a difference it caused me to get the matching tweeter in hopes of it being as big of an upgrade


----------



## Kalmangar (Jan 24, 2021)

DaveG said:


> @Kalmangar please share more details on the 6 channel Xcelsus amp. I have emailed Xcelsus inquiring but have yet to receive a reply. Posting a link is allowed but if you aren't comfortable doing it, pm the link please. Thanks, Dave



Don’t know on which stage it is and when it is going to get out , but u can just search of google “Xcelsus 6 channel amp prototype” for more details.

It should have been realised already but it got delayed for some reason(don’t know why).

I had the opritinity to purchase one but I ended bought Zapco 150.6 AP, cuz of the waiting list...


----------



## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

Know it makes sense


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

DeLander said:


> SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-04 4" woofer
> 
> 
> SB Acoustics SB12CACS25-04 4" woofer
> ...


I use these with €500 beryllium tweeters, I hope that answers both this question and the original one, they compliment each other really really well!


----------



## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

dumdum said:


> I use these with €500 beryllium tweeters, I hope that answers both this question and the original one, they compliment each other really really well!


What frequency range have you found is best for these ? How do you have them mounted ?


----------



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Clvol1255 said:


> For me this is a great question but also a tough one. I will have a much better answer for you this week whenever I’m able to install my TBM tweeter. WM mid range made a GIGANTIC difference going from a very well rounded mid in Mille legend to the WM 3.5” it was such a difference it caused me to get the matching tweeter in hopes of it being as big of an upgrade


I wonder how the scan Illuminator (large format one) compares to the Focal Beryllium tweeter....

It’s cheaper than the Focals and it’s Scanspeak’s flagship tweeter with a much lower FS compared to the Focals 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

DeLander said:


> What frequency range have you found is best for these ? How do you have them mounted ?


Currently I have them tucked into the windows in the a pillar with the windows blacked out aimed upwards with little to no dash to act as a reflective surface, I am playing them from 160-4khz currently and they handle this just fine, I have gone as low as 100 with a 24db slope, and again they were fine with this and also I have tried all the way down to 2.5khz to cross to the bliesma t25b, they are a match made in heaven for me









they will shortly be placed into a set of down the car aimed bookshelf type arrangements further up the a pillar similar to these but higher up... mid roughly where the tweeter is and tweeter above it... these are 15cm ceramics which were also very good and clean, but as I don’t need them to play to 80 or 100 due to reflection issues in the passenger side Iswapped to the 12cm


----------



## JMacLeod (Oct 14, 2020)

An excellent investment is something that will help improve your life in the long run. For example, if you invest 5000 dollars in a business that will pay off 100 times over in future years, that would be an excellent investment. The risk is that you won't know what the end result will be. A better idea is to find something that will improve your life somehow but this time take less risk. I've learned all these things from What is a Financial Coach? (and How to Find the Right One for You). A lot of valuable tips and tricks, also some investments ideas. Let's say you invest $1000 in a seed round for a new company that will do well, and you get to see how it develops over time.


----------



## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

New summer movie: *A Tale of Two Tweeters*

Starring:
Focal TBXP Berryliums - Front
Thesis Violino II's - Rear

_Critics agree, they are both fabulous! _


----------



## adriarochester2 (4 mo ago)

Midrange would be my choice, even though I don’t know much about the difference between these two. The car I drive now had Midranges preinstalled, and I didn’t have to bother about having good music in the car. It’s not fully legal in my country, and the neighbors or people in the streets can call the police if the music is too loud. I think it’s right because loud music breaks their personal space. But I still allow myself to turn the bass volume up while driving on a lonely road. Now, after reading some good financial advice on the internet, I want to invest some more in this car and then sell it to get a better one.


----------

