# MYTH: Zapco makes quality products



## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

I purchased an ST4 amp new
The amp was installed flat, right side up with plenty of clearance. 

It overheats at 1/2 gain. 

I called Zapco- they mailed me small fans that look like crap to clip onto the heat sinks. 

The amp shuts down at less than 2/3 gain. 

I called them back. They claim the fault is mine for bridging their bridgeable amp! 

That the amp is not defective. I said it was poorly engineered and they know it. Silence on their end. Then.. We can exchange it but it will do the same thing. 

I purchased the amp from a an authorized dealer along with the speakers. 

I feel really uncomfortable being stuck holding the bag. I am the guy who loses the most money by eating the loss. 

I've heard zapco has gone downhill- this confirms it for me. No culpability. So long zapco. Nice knowing ya!


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

What does your authorized zapco dealer say? Why are you trying to fix it with zapco and not the dealer?


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## XtremeRevolution (Dec 3, 2010)

azngotskills said:


> What does your authorized zapco dealer say? Why are you trying to fix it with zapco and not the dealer?


Does it matter? If Zapco leaves him with the short end of the stick, that's a big failure in my book. 

Example: Image Dynamics sells subs through many dealers. However, they provide direct and honorable support to anyone who has issues, no questions asked. So long as they made the sub, they support it and stand by their work. If the sub has issues, you send it in and they take care of it, no need to go through a middle man. 

If more companies were like that, perhaps people would be more confident in their products.


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

What load are you sending to the amp?


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I would have to ask:

1. Brigded amp load
2. What are using to determine the gain setting on the amp.

I have installed 3 ST4 amps. The only one I have had amp getting hot and shutting down was one installed in a boat in an area that does not provide good ventilation. It only shut down if you play it full tilt for 30min or longer, which is asking a lot from the amp. It is driving 2 sets of 6.5 components. 

The amp is shutting down to protect itself. You may be asking more from the amp then the amp can give. Your dealer might should have steered you in another direction based on power requirments.


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

Reminds me of the time I paid Zapco (with cc over the phone) to "look over" my 9.0xd....only to find my account drained a week later, and through some clever research on my part, found some of the products being shipped to Modesto CA. Big coincidence I know....


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

I had left a message with the shop, and just tried again and got through. 

Zapco is stepping up and working with me now via the shop now. Looks fairly positive. Lot of grief to get here though between the heartache of a carefully planned install, the labor itself and to find the amp cooking. Then phone calls to no avail.. Until now there was no end in sight. Still not at all happy with having to re-do all of it. 

To the previous questions:
It was bridged for 4 ohms and the gains were determined via the pots on the side being turned under 2/3 of their full range of motion.


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm sure there are a lot of zapco fans here, but I'm not impressed yet for obvious reasons. We'll see what they ultimately do. 
I've heard there was a change in leadership there, just hope it was for the best.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Just to be clear....many of the "fans" were talking about Zapco reference, DC, or C2K series amps. Havent seen many reviews of the new Zapco Studios or even the I-Force line


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I didnt know they brought out another entry level amp. Still at entry level I would expect it to function ok, but who knows.

But you having a bad experience does not make the myth you posted correct. Thats why this subforum is retarded.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Gain is not a limit on how much power an amp puts out, an amplifier can make full power with the gain WFO or at it's minimum depending on the input voltage. 

It just sets up the sensitivity of the amplifier or WHEN it will make full power....

In other words, gain is moot at this point.


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I didnt know they brought out another entry level amp. Still at entry level I would expect it to function ok, but who knows.
> 
> But you having a bad experience does not make the myth you posted correct. Thats why this subforum is retarded.


qft

:thumbsup:


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

chad said:


> Gain is not a limit on how much power an amp puts out, an amplifier can make full power with the gain WFO or at it's minimum depending on the input voltage.
> 
> It just sets up the sensitivity of the amplifier or WHEN it will make full power....
> 
> In other words, gain is moot at this point.


That's why I think the op isn't setting his gain right. For the record I've installed amps in some of the worst places possible when it comes to cooling and have never had one shut down under normal use. That includes the old orange Sony XPLOD amps that were supposed to selfdestruct. Got hot enough to fry eggs on but never shut down even with gain and boost maxed. This was back in 03 when I thought Best Buy was a good place to get car audio and have it installed.


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## Wonway (Jun 9, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> This was back in 03 when I thought Best Buy was a good place to get car audio and have it installed.


It's not?


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## go!tc (May 15, 2010)

azngotskills said:


> Just to be clear....many of the "fans" were talking about Zapco reference, DC, or C2K series amps. Havent seen many reviews of the new Zapco Studios or even the I-Force line


The I-force line is actually pretty good, I heard a system that had the component set hooked up with the 4100.4 and one 12 inch sub from the same line. Sounded very good. The studio line on the other hand looks cheap.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

I ran an IDQ10 D2 V3 sub on two bridged channels of a Zapco DC 1000.4. I never found out why it would go into protect after 30-40 mins. I tried nine ways to Sunday to rectify the problem. Never figured it out. I ran the same sub of a JL 500/1 and never had an issue. I have continued to use the DC 1000.4 in various other configurations and never had a problem.

I hope you have better luck solving your problem.


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## Wonway (Jun 9, 2009)

DanMan said:


> I ran an IDQ10 D2 V3 sub on two bridged channels of a Zapco DC 1000.4. I never found out why it would go into protect after 30-40 mins. I tried nine ways to Sunday to rectify the problem. Never figured it out. I ran the same sub of a JL 500/1 and never had an issue. I have continued to use the DC 1000.4 in various other configurations and never had a problem.
> 
> I hope you have better luck solving your problem.


Running @ 2 ohms bridged is hard on any amp. Did you wire it to 1 ohm on the 500/1?


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

he had a d2 so there's no way he could have ran that at 2 ohms bridged corrections i guess each coil got a bridged channel


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## sniper5431 (Dec 8, 2009)

Did you happen to take some voltage readings during the time the amp was over-heating? Zapco amps are pretty sensitive to voltage drops.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

nevermind, retard post on my part


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

Wonway said:


> Running @ 2 ohms bridged is hard on any amp. Did you wire it to 1 ohm on the 500/1?


It was wired in series @ 4ohms, verified with a Fluke dmm. Bridged 2 channels on the Zapco DC 1000.4 at 500 watts. 4 ohms load on the JL 500/1 as well.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

Machine7 said:


> I purchased an ST4 amp new
> The amp was installed flat, right side up with plenty of clearance.
> 
> It overheats at 1/2 gain.
> ...



What HU are you using?


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

First head unit was an Alpine CDA-117 and the second is a Pioneer x930BT. 
No problems with any other amps I've tried. It was overheating at 1/3 gain too if enough bass was being pushed (cross over set at 80hz). 

Anyway Zapco admits it's a prob with this model and has agreed to upgrade me to the i series.


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

The studio series was supposed to be an amazing amp as pitched by the company and the retailer. 
A basic amp, built well, in an amazingly small package. 
What they did was manufacture a product not thoroughly tested.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Well any company that gives you a free upgrade for a amp thats under performing is a company that seems to pride themselves on making sure their customers are happy. Zapco has the best support I ever dealt with. I called for a question and got a call back their head tech guy and he helped me plan out my system and spoke for like 45 mins to me. 

I cant say anything about their new studio line but Ive had every other type of zapco and theyve all been issue free and my original studios have 10+ plus years of being driven hard every day and theyre still going in my friends daily driver. 

ID (at least last year) and Zapco seem to have great customer support and so does arc to my surprise.

But dont base a high end company on their brand new lowest entry level line that they hardly even recommend (coming from tech support) . This line is supposed to compete with $100 amps like RF prime, its not a high end piece. Try using ref and above and then speak to me. Theyre the most reliable amps I ever had and whenever I had an issue, they took care of me.

Where is the myth here anyway?


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

not thoroughly tested by who? "it shuts down at 2/3 gain"? the gain is not a volume knob. if it shuts down then its being pushed to hard, and the protection circuit is working properly. turn the gain down. if its not loud enough then, then you bought the wrong amp. i mean what do you expect from 150watts? seriously? there is nothing wrong with that amp. sorry man, but thats just the reality of your "situation". you cant buy thier cheapest line of amp, then complain when you try to get 500watts out of a 150watt amp, then come in a place like this and bash a company like ZAPCO. do you know what distortion sounds like? im willing to bet NO! because if the amp continually shuts down, then you are listening to distortion. what sub are you trying to run with this amp? (yes it matters. it will tell everybody if you have some crazy ass SPL oriented uber low sensitivity sub that you are trying to do hair tricks with off 150 watts) are you bridging both the front and rear, or just one pair of channels? sorry man, but you just cant have that attitude, you make yourself look stupid.


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## miami1331 (Mar 19, 2010)

Zapco used to build their rep on building great amps, the reference amps are the ****! and the closer you get to them having been built in Modesto Ca. The better! now they want to try to convince you their amps are great because of this great shroud of secrecy about who you bought it from and if their going to grace you with their support. Hopefully they will get back to building kick ass amps and stop worrying about who you bought the thing from! the amps kick ass, I run 4 of them but that support BS is a joke! if it says Zapco then fix the damn thing and charge him accordingly!


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## davidsw (May 23, 2011)

just go with the linear amps and you will never have any crap like that happen.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

you guys are missing the point. he bought one of ZAPCO's lower end amps. of course its NOT going to perform like a C2K!! WTF? it IS going to be very "avarage"! with a very "avarage" price! simply because mediocrity is what he paid for. he bought a honda, when he wanted an acura. and got pissed when he didnt get an acura. its painfully obvious, cut-and-dry. you get what you pay for.


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

The Studio X amps are really nice if used in the right application. The ST4 does run hot if all channels are running at 2ohms. My friend runs one in the same configuration, bridged 4ohms and it does run hot but we made sure it had some decent fans and no problems with shutting down, and this is in 90F ambient temp.
The ST2 has no problems running 2ohms, but it has only half the load.
These aren't like the old studios, but they weren't meant to be. Its a mini AB amp, so it will NEED good cooling. Like the Massive Nano multi channel amps that also need a bit more consideration for heat management, these zapcos do too. For the size, there excellent imo. Just know their limitations.


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## miami1331 (Mar 19, 2010)

IMO you can't have it both ways, if your going to consider yourself top end in the car audio game then when you put your name on it it's got to cover your full line as far as support! you can't say hey he only paid 300 bucks for his amp so I'm going to handle it through the dealer but if he bought one of my pricey competition amps I'm going to make sure he gets top shelf support! Anyone that purchased a competition amp from Zapco then at some point decides to go another route has to eat a ****-load of cash because now you have to find a buyer for amps who's support is attached to the dealer not the product? When you start telling a consumer that your not going to provide tech support of fix a product they produced unless you purchase it from who and where they tell you to that consumer usually moves on!


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## Mr. Randy (Apr 21, 2006)

wheelieking71 said:


> you guys are missing the point. he bought one of ZAPCO's lower end amps. of course its NOT going to perform like a C2K!! WTF? it IS going to be very "avarage"! with a very "avarage" price! simply because mediocrity is what he paid for. he bought a honda, when he wanted an acura. and got pissed when he didnt get an acura. its painfully obvious, cut-and-dry. you get what you pay for.


I agree...

I feel if you are pushing it too hard for an entry level amp...lower the gains and see what happens...if your not satisfied then move up to a bigger better amp.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

wheelieking71 said:


> you guys are missing the point. he bought one of ZAPCO's lower end amps. of course its NOT going to perform like a C2K!! WTF? it IS going to be very "avarage"! with a very "avarage" price! simply because mediocrity is what he paid for. he bought a honda, when he wanted an acura. and got pissed when he didnt get an acura. its painfully obvious, cut-and-dry. you get what you pay for.


Woah, relax there. When a company makes a product and puts their name on it, they need to fully back up their product, regardless of what class or how expensive it is.

Your Acura/Honda analogy does not make sense in this situation. A better one would be that a customer purchasing a 3 series BMW deserves the same type of support from the manufacturer as someone purchasing a 7 series BMW. When you put your logo on that product, you better be ready to offer the customer what they have come to expect from that brand, regardless of price.


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## Briznow (Mar 19, 2008)

Angrywhopper said:


> Your Acura/Honda analogy does not make sense in this situation. A better one would be that a customer purchasing a 3 series BMW deserves the same type of support from the manufacturer as someone purchasing a 7 series BMW. When you put your logo on that product, you better be ready to offer the customer what they have come to expect from that brand, regardless of price.


OP bought an Acura RSX and is upset that, hard as he may push it, it's not performing like an Acura NSX. Is that Acura's fault? Same logo, and I'm sure Acura is providing what a reasonable customer would expect from the brand as a whole, but those extra dollars that Acura charged for the NSX are going somewhere. It's called performance.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Briznow said:


> OP bought an Acura RSX and is upset that, hard as he may push it, it's not performing like an Acura NSX. Is that Acura's fault? Same logo, and I'm sure Acura is providing what a reasonable customer would expect from the brand as a whole, but those extra dollars that Acura charged for the NSX are going somewhere. It's called performance.


The Acura analogy doesn't work when presented like that.

More accurately, it would be like buying an RSX and when you get on it, the engine cuts out (VTEC didn't kick in, yo ). You take it back to the dealer to have it fixed and they say "too bad...shoulda bought a NSX if you expect to have functioning VTEC all the time."

An amp is designed to perform given a certain input voltage, regardless of gain setting. When you push a competently-designed (and -performing) amp, regardless of price, it should do what it's supposed to. I can pound on my cheap (non-Zapco) 4 channel and it's just fine. While I wouldn't judge an entire brand by the budget line, I can relate to the "tiered" customer service you get when you pay less for _certain _things like cell phone service. But showing up to the Acura dealership in a 95 Legend shouldn't have any bearing on the service you receive if a guy shows up at the same time in an 03 NSX. It shouldn't be "ok, so you want the valve seals done and the head gasket inspected and--holy ****, take a seat over there...an NSX just pulled up!"


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

Thats not accurate either. He hit a performance limitation on the amp, not a reliability issue. All amps amplify, and the zapco did. The gain does have an impact on performance as it impacts both heat and noise. The old cheap amp may perform better on his application in terms of thermal shutdown, but is out near the same size? Because one of the selling points picture ST series is their small size. I think people don't understand the compromises in designs. Smaller, AB means heat management is more critical.
As for the service part, I love zapcos but have m not always agreed with the way they handled customer and even dealer situations. In. this case, their initial recommendation was a bit careless bit they seen top have since gone further than needed with a few upgrade to a higher priced amp,.which I font think they needed to do. I agree with the OP though that he shouldn't have had to go through so much trouble and phone calls though, but still do believe his application isn'ta god match for the ST4 and that is the root of the problem.


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

Damn I hate the auto correction of android.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

Angrywhopper said:


> Woah, relax there. When a company makes a product and puts their name on it, they need to fully back up their product, regardless of what class or how expensive it is.
> 
> Your Acura/Honda analogy does not make sense in this situation. A better one would be that a customer purchasing a 3 series BMW deserves the same type of support from the manufacturer as someone purchasing a 7 series BMW. When you put your logo on that product, you better be ready to offer the customer what they have come to expect from that brand, regardless of price.


i totally agree that Zapco should offer the same level of support for every product they sell. every company SHOULD. thats a given. my response was based on the fact that i read between the lines of all the single sided responses by the OP. my honda/acura analogy makes perfect sense. because it is exactly what happened.


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## Briznow (Mar 19, 2008)

ryan s said:


> But showing up to the Acura dealership in a 95 Legend shouldn't have any bearing on the service you receive if a guy shows up at the same time in an 03 NSX. It shouldn't be "ok, so you want the valve seals done and the head gasket inspected and--holy ****, take a seat over there...an NSX just pulled up!"


:laugh: That's pretty funny.

In truth, I probably should have read the whole thread before I chimed in. I got a little overexcited to play the analogy game 

The fact that Zapco didn't really back him up until he got the dealer involved speaks, perhaps, to the business model Zapco has chosen to follow. If they're introducing more and more budget lines of amplifiers in an effort to push more units and increase their profit margin, it doesn't surprise me that they may not continue to offer the same kind of customer care. Is it right? Can't really say that it's wrong - it might just be a business decision.

From what the OP says about the setup (bridged channels seeing a 4 ohm load and gains less than 2/3 up), coupled with the fact that Zapco implicitly admitted that, rather than it being an issue of a defective unit, the amp may not be engineered to the highest standards, suggest that Zapco indeed may not be making the highest quality product w/r/t the Studio line.

I know a lot of people here get off on having their gains turned all the way down, but if I had an amp installed with plenty of clearance and supplementary fans strapped on, I can't say I'd be too impressed if it kept going into thermal protect with gains 2/3 of the way up. 

The above takes for granted the fact that the OP knows how to set his levels without distorting the **** out of everything. If not, then **** me for defending him


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

Don't completely disown an entire company because of one bad model.

Even if the entire line is bad, it doesn't mean past/future products from that company are or will be the same.


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

Briznow said:


> the amp may not be engineered to the highest standards, suggest that Zapco indeed may not be making the highest quality product w/r/t the Studio line.


The implication that if an amp does not live up to the user's expectations automatically means it's engineered poorly or not to the highest standards is inaccurate. Engineering is a compromise. Ideal anything (in this case an amp) only exist to theorize the initial concept and make initial calculations simple. Everything else in real life is compromised. The Zapco ST line is a compromise of power and loading capability for SMALL SIZE. If the user wanted big power, a larger package would've been the correct choice. If he wanted big power but NEEDED a small package, than an AB design is not the right choice. This does NOT mean the ST line is poorly engineered. It is engineered with the compromise of small size for power and loading capability in mind. Yes, Zapco SHOULD explicitly state that the amp needs special thermal considerations if operating all channels at 2ohm loads (4ohm bridged is the same) OR not rate it for 4ohm bridged operation. This would help with decisions for many in the beginning and avoid these situations where the compromises are not understood by the customer. Again, I think it was a poor choice for his application/need and perhaps the shop pushed the wrong amp for his use or didn't even bother to get an understanding of his application and needs. Zapco should've dealt with it better at the beginning. But that still does not mean the amp is not designed properly or towards its intended application.


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## Briznow (Mar 19, 2008)

Jsracing said:


> The implication that if an amp does not live up to the user's expectations automatically means it's engineered poorly or not to the highest standards is inaccurate. Engineering is a compromise. Ideal anything (in this case an amp) only exist to theorize the initial concept and make initial calculations simple. Everything else in real life is compromised. The Zapco ST line is a compromise of power and loading capability for SMALL SIZE. If the user wanted big power, a larger package would've been the correct choice. If he wanted big power but NEEDED a small package, than an AB design is not the right choice. This does NOT mean the ST line is poorly engineered. It is engineered with the compromise of small size for power and loading capability in mind. Yes, Zapco SHOULD explicitly state that the amp needs special thermal considerations if operating all channels at 2ohm loads (4ohm bridged is the same) OR not rate it for 4ohm bridged operation. This would help with decisions for many in the beginning and avoid these situations where the compromises are not understood by the customer. Again, I think it was a poor choice for his application/need and perhaps the shop pushed the wrong amp for his use or didn't even bother to get an understanding of his application and needs. Zapco should've dealt with it better at the beginning. But that still does not mean the amp is not designed properly or towards its intended application.


You're right that any engineering project involves numerous compromises. I can assume that the design goal for this particular line of amps involved supplying low-to-moderate power in a small footprint. I can also assume part of the design goal was to engineer it so that it doesn't overheat and shut down if used properly.

If the customer uses a product within the manufacturers specifications (which in this case it appears that he did) and the amplifier repeatedly fails, then the design goals simply have not been met. If the amp is wired properly, mounted with air flow considerations in mind (not to mention the supplementary fans), and the gains are only 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up, it should not go into thermal protect on a consistent basis. It's not the customer's job to baby the thing so it doesn't overheat. It's Zapco's job to make sure a customer can operate it within recommended specifications without it failing.


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

I agree somewhat. That's why I said Zapco should've explicitly stated the operating/use conditions. I think their design goals may not have been translated well into the marketing, or that the marketing goals did not translate well into the design goals. Still, small and AB means heat...the same issues that the Massive Nano multi-channels seem to face...some people have no issues, while others have issues with only half the AB channels driven...just happens to be the specific use condition and the mfr should've more specifically stated the proper conditions or use limitations.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Jsracing said:


> I agree somewhat. That's why I said Zapco should've explicitly stated the operating/use conditions. I think their design goals may not have been translated well into the marketing, or that the marketing goals did not translate well into the design goals. Still, small and AB means heat...the same issues that the Massive Nano multi-channels seem to face...some people have no issues, while others have issues with only half the AB channels driven...just happens to be the specific use condition and the mfr should've more specifically stated the proper conditions or use limitations.


The ref500.1 is a small a/b mono amp thats much more powerful than the studiox amps per square inch. As were the original zapco studio amps. These are comparible in size to a studio100 and they as well as the 500 watt ref never had thermal problems. Yes the ref is slightly larger than the new studios but not by much. I really hope Zapco isnt putting out amps that overheat that easily. No offense to the OP but unless I hear the same situation from other studiox users, my experience with zapco will lean towards user error or a faulty product. Again, no experience with this line but I do have exp with every other zapco line.


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

I have experience with this line, and know of several others also that have not had thermal shutdown issues. Keep in mind, we knew of the limitations of the amp and do keep a good airflow on them (my friend's setup that I made runs a pair of 90mm computer fans atop the ST4 and one atop the ST2). They do run hot, and do need more thermal help, but do work fine and sound great.

The Ref500.1 is 173% larger area-wise (LxW) than the ST4. I've either had or held most of the old Zapco Studios and Comp-series amps and none were as small as the ST4 (which obviously also held in my hand and worked with). My Z250C4-SL is small-ish, but still about twice the size of the ST4. If you hold the ST4 in your hand, you'll notice how small it really is and perhaps better understand why it's thermally limited/challenged. How about everyone just demand Zapco change their literature or website to say not bridgeable? It seems it would be easier than to convince people of a compromised design aimed more towards size.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

I just think Zapco's theme was always "no compromise" and carried a price tag supporting that theme. If theyre changing the theme putting out sub par amps, at any price range, or misrepresenting specs which they prided themselves on never doing, than Im sad to see that being a huge zapco fan. But again, no experience with this line. 

Im also sad that they stopped working with ESB and are putting out entry level speakers.


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## davidsw (May 23, 2011)

is all i no is i have used lots of amps and from my experence zapco is only 2nd to linear power and thats saying alot.i have a zap i250 havnt hooked it up yet, but i plan on abusing it so when or if it pops i will tell all how this i250 never cracked.


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## necrophidious (Aug 14, 2007)

IMHO, the advantage of buying from an authorized dealer, regardless of brand, is the ability to return it to the dealer if it does not work as advertised. At that point it becomes the dealers problem, not yours, justifying the premium the dealer charged for it. I do feel the OP's pain, though - I bought a Ref 1000.4 and had nothing but problems with it.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

tyroneshoes said:


> I just think Zapco's theme was always "no compromise" and carried a price tag supporting that theme. If theyre changing the theme putting out sub par amps, at any price range, or misrepresenting specs which they prided themselves on never doing, than Im sad to see that being a huge zapco fan. But again, no experience with this line.
> 
> Im also sad that they stopped working with ESB and are putting out entry level speakers.


They have no choice. They must offer entry level products to be able to compete in the American car audio market. The market for $1000 4ch amps and $750 mono amps is very, very small.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Angrywhopper said:


> They have no choice. They must offer entry level products to be able to compete in the American car audio market. The market for $1000 4ch amps and $750 mono amps is very, very small.


Thats exactly what's sad about it. Having to compromise to survive. I force was their entry level. These are just mini amps. 

They also only put out entry level speakers now as well.

I just hope they dont go the way of ID.


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

The install is good. The tuning is good. Zapco themselves admitted there is a problem with the amp. Yes I find myself babying it to keep it out of thermal protection and yes that is well below distortion levels. *not fun*

When I was sold the amp I was told zapco is an amazing company and managed to fit an AB amp in a surprisingly compact package. I was told it would run hot but based on my install it would be fine. 

In fact the shop was looking into having custom brackets fabricated to fit in the BMW e39 factory amp location. He has since abandoned that idea. My install is in a far more open area and it's overheating. I'm not the only one. 

So having purchased an amp that both the seller and zapco admit does not perform as it was meant to- that is to not need a 90mm cooling fan... Yes I am disappointed. I would have purchased a different brand or model. 

The shop said zapco produced them before proper testing and that is quite obvious. Sorry I know many zapco fans want to believe it's installation or application error, but it isn't. Zapco didn't set out to build an amp that needs to have cooling fans added, but that's what they got. Every time I open my trunk I smell the amp cooking while those tiny snap on fans they mailed me whirl away.


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm a zapco fan, but I don't blindly follow any brand or company. If they screwed up, I'll recognize it. I don't hold zapco free from blame. I and the other owners I know don't have issues because we knew what we were getting into. 300w AB design means 500-600w of power consumption, and 200-300w of dissipation, in a very small package so we knew it would be very thermally challenged. You shouldn't have any great issues with the I-force amps though as their significantly larger.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Jsracing said:


> Thats not accurate either. He hit a performance limitation on the amp, not a reliability issue. All amps amplify, and the zapco did. The gain does have an impact on performance as it impacts both heat and noise.


No, gain is independent and generally not linear. It's not a volume or "distortion" knob. The amp _did not_ "amplify" because it shut itself down. I don't clip either of my amps with 6.5v (max) preouts on the headunit even though my amps only have gain swings up to 3.2v and 4v of input...at least that's what they're marked, who knows if it's accurate? :laugh:

This seems like a defective unit, or a simply poor design. I'll stick with the former until shown otherwise...



Briznow said:


> The fact that Zapco didn't really back him up until he got the dealer involved speaks, perhaps, to the business model Zapco has chosen to follow. If they're introducing more and more budget lines of amplifiers in an effort to push more units and increase their profit margin, it doesn't surprise me that they may not continue to offer the same kind of customer care. Is it right? Can't really say that it's wrong - it might just be a business decision.
> 
> From what the OP says about the setup (bridged channels seeing a 4 ohm load and gains less than 2/3 up), coupled with the fact that Zapco implicitly admitted that, rather than it being an issue of a defective unit, the amp may not be engineered to the highest standards, suggest that Zapco indeed may not be making the highest quality product w/r/t the Studio line.


It makes me wonder if they take the same position as JL does, officially..."if you buy the product from someone other than an authorized dealer, we'll fix it...at full price. No warranty unless you buy from whom we say you should..." 

Once more, till an independent source hooks one up and verifies it's a bad design, we can't call it a bad design. Now if you heard that from the top tech guy at Zapco...I'd be worried.



Jsracing said:


> I'm a zapco fan, but I don't blindly follow any brand or company. If they screwed up, I'll recognize it. I don't hold zapco free from blame. I and the other owners I know don't have issues because we knew what we were getting into. 300w AB design means 500-600w of power consumption, and 200-300w of dissipation, in a very small package so we knew it would be very thermally challenged. You shouldn't have any great issues with the I-force amps though as their significantly larger.


You know there's amps which are 60-90% efficient now, right? Why buy a 50% efficient AB amp, stuffed into an Altoids tin? :laugh: There's more important things than what brand's on the heatsink. Same reason I find the Massive Nanos pointless...all the waste of AB but in a smaller package! Call now! :laugh:


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## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

ryan s said:


> No, gain is independent and generally not linear. It's not a volume or "distortion" knob. The amp _did not_ "amplify" because it shut itself down. I don't clip either of my amps with 6.5v (max) preouts on the headunit even though my amps only have gain swings up to 3.2v and 4v of input...at least that's what they're marked, who knows if it's accurate? :laugh:


Not really sure what your reference to the non-linearity of the amp has to do with my comment that the gain adjustments impact thermal dissipation. Also, to clarify, the amp DID AMPLIFY. It amplified until the thermal dissipation exceeded it's capability to regulate it and shutdown. Because it shutdown due to thermal trip does not mean it did not amplify all the time before it hit shutdown.



ryan s said:


> This seems like a defective unit, or a simply poor design. I'll stick with the former until shown otherwise...


The reasoning has already been stated for a non-ideal design. The amp works if it's kept thermally in control. Yes, it does need a lot more thermal management than other amps of larger size, but it's not broken.



ryan s said:


> It makes me wonder if they take the same position as JL does, officially..."if you buy the product from someone other than an authorized dealer, we'll fix it...at full price. No warranty unless you buy from whom we say you should..."


Virtually every amp mfr/brand takes that same stance. He bought from an authorized source, so he just got poor service from Zapco, but often times, many mfrs recommend you go through the vendor first before going through them.



ryan s said:


> You know there's amps which are 60-90% efficient now, right? Why buy a 50% efficient AB amp, stuffed into an Altoids tin? :laugh: There's more important things than what brand's on the heatsink. Same reason I find the Massive Nanos pointless...all the waste of AB but in a smaller package! Call now! :laugh:


Um, yes, I know about the other amps. I'm an amplifier engineer, albeit not an audio one. The facetiousness of those on this forum can be very annoying at times when they think they know everything already and you know nothing.
For the price we got the Zapcos for and the size and power requirements of the system, these Zapcos work for us. AND we understood the thermal considerations required to make them work without thermal shutdown. I've already stated the thermal needs of these amps. Not really sure what you're trying to point out here. The OP was angry and frustrated with his first experience with Zapco, which was understandable. He did not fully understand the physics of combining an AB design with an ultra-small mini amp package and trusted the shop's recommendation. Zapco should've made that noted in their advertising and product literature so common users don't have to deal with this as the common consumer shouldn't need to know the details of efficiency and size relationships. But all that being said, that does not mean the amp is broken.

The OP is getting a great upgrade into a larger, thermally more stable amp in a higher priced Zapco product line for no cost, which I think is adequate compensation for his troubles. Regarding the Studio X amps themselves, for those who don't want to deal with fans, don't use them. They ARE a heavily compromised design to meet the initial goals of small package and medium power. Zapco seems to have overcompromised on the ST4 as the other models don't have thermal shutdown issues (we don't even need to run a fan on the ST2...it gets hot, but won't shut down). Understand the compromises made and the performance capabilities of these amps and decide if they work for you or not.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Sounds like Zapco just put out some tweeter only amps here. Thats upsetting. 

You know what else is odd. My dc1000.4 went into thermal at 2x150 @ 4 ohms and 500x1 with a 4 ohm sub load for the first time yesterday. Gains set low. 

Thats something I hope doesnt happen again. Are there thermal problems with the dc line as well? I have only had this amp series for a month


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

cajunner said:


> is it mounted under the rear deck in the trunk while being inverted w/o fans?


Nope. Fans unobstructed and with grill mesh on top to provide extra ventilation. The basin is not sealed and is open to exhaust outside the basin at the fans exhaust points and at the bottom as well.



















I have used this basin setup for years with no thermal issues before with any amp. I customized it for even more ventilation since the zapco was a class a/b. It never shut off when I switched to rails for lower impedance because I used to run a 2 ohm sub but that also decreases the overall power of the entire amp so when I got my morel, I went with 4 ohm so I could be using the high voltage rails.

Thats when it was getting thermal....however this was after a hour drive at pretty high volume which is still no excuse.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Jsracing said:


> Not really sure what your reference to the non-linearity of the amp has to do with my comment that the gain adjustments impact thermal dissipation. Also, to clarify, the amp DID AMPLIFY. It amplified until the thermal dissipation exceeded it's capability to regulate it and shutdown. Because it shutdown due to thermal trip does not mean it did not amplify all the time before it hit shutdown.
> 
> The reasoning has already been stated for a non-ideal design. The amp works if it's kept thermally in control. Yes, it does need a lot more thermal management than other amps of larger size, but it's not broken.


An amp should make rated power given a reasonable input voltage and input signal regardless of gain setting...in this case, "2/3s of the way up" means nothing. That's it, that's all an amp does. As I said in the previous post, I'm giving my circa-1998 sub amp _double _its "rated" input gain voltage without incident. Inversely, if I crank the gain and play it at a lower volume, I would expect no shutdown.

The more I think about it, if Zapco sent an actual fan kit custom-made for this series of amp as the remedy, the more I do consider it a ****ty design (provided the amp isn't installed upside-down, inside the glovebox, etc). No one...like...ever tested the amps before taking money for them? 



Jsracing said:


> Virtually every amp mfr/brand takes that same stance. He bought from an authorized source, so he just got poor service from Zapco, but often times, many mfrs recommend you go through the vendor first before going through them.


I agree, plus if you get one bad CSR, you can always call back later. 



Jsracing said:


> Um, yes, I know about the other amps. I'm an amplifier engineer, albeit not an audio one. The facetiousness of those on this forum can be very annoying at times when they think they know everything already and you know nothing.
> For the price we got the Zapcos for and the size and power requirements of the system, these Zapcos work for us. AND we understood the thermal considerations required to make them work without thermal shutdown. I've already stated the thermal needs of these amps. Not really sure what you're trying to point out here. The OP was angry and frustrated with his first experience with Zapco, which was understandable. He did not fully understand the physics of combining an AB design with an ultra-small mini amp package and trusted the shop's recommendation. Zapco should've made that noted in their advertising and product literature so common users don't have to deal with this as the common consumer shouldn't need to know the details of efficiency and size relationships. But all that being said, that does not mean the amp is broken.


The "facetiousness" is that the goal around these parts is to get everything for nothing, or as close as we can making compromises in certain areas. Installing amps that can't be driven hard by design is like saying "here, have an AMG Mercedes. It won't go over 80MPH, though." The pointlessness of having amps that need to be treated with kid gloves...in _car audio_...is pretty funny to me :laugh: 

ALL amps need ventilation because ALL amps are creating waste in the form of heat. That's not in question, but what I do question is why the amp is shutting down in normal operating circumstances, in a less-than-thermally-demanding install.

My central point is: Why would anyone bother with an amp that can't be driven to its potential...the potential _it was designed to provide_? ALL amps will reach a point where they can't operate anymore, but why is the ST line's so seemingly low?


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

I did call back twice and spoke to the same CSR. He basically tried to blame it on being bridged. He specifically said that the amp is not defective and there is no use in sending a replacement because it will do the same thing because it is bridged.

When i said it is poorly engineered then, he had no comment. 

Anyway, i pulled it out to ship back and in the meantime stuck my 12 year old 75 x 2 JBL amp in. 

And now i have something else to despise zapco over: the alternator/rpm dependant whine is GONE!! 

That was going to be my next task. I had already suspected the amp because ive got the same common ground for my other two amps without issue and the rcas to the zapco disconnected still produced whine. 

So am i likely to be without issue on the i-series they are sending to replace it?


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## prince427c (Dec 7, 2010)

Sounds kind of like the issue I have with this Vibe Litebox Stereo 4. It's a small amp package with big power, and it will thermal easily at full bore bridged. I mean, though, I can't expect much out of it. It's a small package trying to dissipate a LOT of heat. It's a phenomenal amp for its size, but it has its disadvantages and drawbacks.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

prince427c said:


> Sounds kind of like the issue I have with this Vibe Litebox Stereo 4. It's a small amp package with big power, and it will thermal easily at full bore bridged. I mean, though, I can't expect much out of it. It's a small package trying to dissipate a LOT of heat. It's a phenomenal amp for its size, but it has its disadvantages and drawbacks.


Turn it upside down, such that the fan is blowing up?

I've used several of those Ubuy Piccolo amps (none Vibe-branded) and it seems to me that the cooling system is designed for the amp to be turned the other way.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

I have sold and installed about 2 dozen of the ST4s and no returns yet to date. However none of them were running 2Ohm on all channels.

Who is your dealer ? I should have known about this situation and would have stepped in, but I heard nothing about it. If you feel more comfortable PM'ing the info, then feel free.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

OP still hasn't clarified what he is running off the amp, as a 4ch and indication of bridging it I'd guess a sub and some fronts.

If my guess above is correct then there's little wonder that he is putting the amp into protect-150wrms onto anything but the most efficient large cone area sub/subs and an E39 BMW and you've simply not got enough power to get any bass into the cabin! So turning up the gains would be his/dealer's attempt to get an amp which is underpowered for the scenario to deliver something it can't. If you want any "decent" bass in an E39 you need at least 300wrms worth of sub amp and an efficient enclosure to to deliver it-unless you go IB of course.


If that is the situation IMO Zapco have done more than they need to, they should have given the dealer a round of f*cks for selling an amp not suitable for the situation and made him exchange the amp. Of course the OP could have bought the amp without telling the dealer it's intended use, but then the dealer should have asked.

Without any of us knowing more about exactly was being expected of the amp this whole thread is conjetcure.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

ryan s said:


> My central point is: Why would anyone bother with an amp that can't be driven to its potential...the potential _it was designed to provide_? ALL amps will reach a point where they can't operate anymore, but why is the ST line's so seemingly low?


The amp IS being driven to it's full potential, its hitting its thermal limits!-it's just the OP needs more power...

I can't believe how many people are willing to jump on the hate bandwagon without even knowing the full story...


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

I should have been more clear. Amp is driving a set of 2 way components (mid/tweet) crossed over at 80 hz from the headunit. 

The amp was purchased with the speakers. I can assure you that the amp is going into thermal protection far earlier than any limits being reached. With the little fans installed i was able to bump up the gains a little and get more power without distortion to my front stage. Yes the speaker specs are well within range for the rated power of the amp. 

Again zapco has agreed its a problem which is why they are working on a solution for me in the form of an upgrade. 

I am disappointed that the amp was destined to fail its own spec sheet simply because it was bridged. To realize now that the horrible audio whine was due to the amp and nothing else is very aggrevating. The whole experience is very souring- when you plan a build and then invest all kinds of time on the install youd like to think you will acheive your goals without issues of engineering of the components used. 

As regards audio whine: If it were a matter of wiring or some such known variable in car audio it would be a different story. Realize that all other amps and wiring in the system were installed identically for all intents and purposes. Yet the zapco produced a killer whine that its temporary replacement- does not produce when installed in its place with the same wiring. 

Then to be mailed two crappy dc fans and told its all because i bridged the amp is very disappointing. It took me getting the retailer involved for them to be willing to resolve their issue. 

Was it the zapco csr i spoke to twice? Id like to think so and yet it sounded to me like his hands were tied and i shouldnt expect anything.

First call: sorry its not defective, you bridged your amp... but let me talk to someone who is the only one who can do anything and she will call you back. 

He got back to me: we're sending you two fans. I said i didnt think it was right to have to modify for poor engineering. He said all he could do was send me fans. I should have stopped it right there, it sounded ridiculous considering how much heat this amp was putting out. You could smell it cooking it was so hot. 

But what do i know- these guys are the pros and if it fixes it then fine. It didnt...

Second call: same csr- theres nothing i can do. Ill give you her voicemail.

I left a message explaining my disappointment and my contact info. I didnt hear back. 

I called the retailer for the second time and this time didnt go to voicemail. He has orchestrated it from here. 

Apparently zapco is offering an upgrade. Im quite leary of the brand now, and have heard there has been a change of command over there. Perhaps it was just a momentary hiccough of an otherwise fine company. So far Im quite aggrevated for all the grief and wondering why i went with an unfamiliar smaller company. 

If it wasnt for the retailer who assured me i was buying a great amp from a great company. Whats more that it happens to come in a nice small package that i could mount vertically in my cd changer area if i wanted (which i didnt once i started looking at other options). 

Another guy online did that install with this amp and even with the cd changer access panel removed, its overheating. I dont know if his install or calibration is good, but the story so far looks pretty poor. We'll see what zapco offers to do. I should have a call back on Monday from the retailer.


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

6spdcoupe said:


> I have sold and installed about 2 dozen of the ST4s and no returns yet to date. However none of them were running 2Ohm on all channels.
> 
> Who is your dealer ? I should have known about this situation and would have stepped in, but I heard nothing about it. If you feel more comfortable PM'ing the info, then feel free.


St4 is 4 ohms bridged
Id rather not "out" the retailer. He runs a good shop and has been stellar throughout the build- even when i called him from out of town. 

I appreciate your offer to help, do you work for zapco? How can you help or step in? Thank you


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Machine7 said:


> St4 is 4 ohms bridged
> Id rather not "out" the retailer. He runs a good shop and has been stellar throughout the build- even when i called him from out of town.
> 
> I appreciate your offer to help, do you work for zapco? How can you help or step in? Thank you


You would not be 'outing' anyone. I am the territory sales manager for this area, so technically my job to help.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

So the 4ch amp is bridged just to run one pair of comps? 

What comps are they? 

Why not buy a 2-ch amp in the 1st place? 

Asides from going active at a later date the only real beneift may be reducing cost, but as John Ruskin said:

It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

At no point was the amp clipping. It was getting too hot long before then. Adding fans permitted increasing the gains to boost output. The fans didn't raise the clipping ceiling, they raised the thermal ceiling. 

I do not understand when someone will say that the gain knobs are not volume knobs with the implication being that they do nothing for increasing speaker output. 

I could be wrong, but isn't the whole point of the gain calibration to adjust the amp for the cleanest signal available WITH the greatest amount of output? And certainly they are not meant to prevent thermal overload before any threat of clipping. 

Someone please educate me on this if I am wrong. 

The front stage has always been dialed in by adjusting the head unit to the maximum possible volume (signal) while seeking the cleanest output signal. Usually equating to a few steps from fully cranked. Some stereos get closer to fully bumped, some not so much. 

Then you turn the gains up on a clean, normally amplified recording until distortion is heard. Then you back it off. This is of course after you have set your crossovers. 

Where am I going wrong in this? 

Isn't this a perfectly acceptable method to achieve sonic bliss?

Isn't it a reasonable expectation that hitting thermal limits in a car audio install that included plenty of air space shouldnt be at issue? 

How about listening to a horrific level of audio whine based purely on a poorly engineered zapco amp?

As for why purchase a 4 channel amp... The retailer told me the amp was bridgeable and that should I desire to go active in the future it would allow more flexibility. He sold the amp in good faith based on a reasonable expectation based on the manufacturers specifications. I purchased it based on both. I would have paid more if I thought this amp was not up to task. I heard so much about zapco so I punted and got an engineering lemon. Folks, the amp sucks in bridged mode and this is a problem even zapco acknowledges. It was obviously sent into production without proper testing or substandard parts were introduced at the factory level. I don't know, I'm not an engineer and shouldn't be dealing with this, but I am as best I can and letting others know that zapco at least in this case (the ST4) dropped the ball.


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## ds1919 (Dec 29, 2010)

So... what happened with this issue?


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## file audio (Mar 12, 2013)

I have the zapco ref 650.6 never see those problems on it! Nice amp so zapco has quality or not? Veredict hehe.. g
For me it is buiilt like a tank


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## namesmeanlittle (Nov 20, 2013)

Machine7 said:


> I purchased an ST4 amp new
> The amp was installed flat, right side up with plenty of clearance.
> 
> It overheats at 1/2 gain.
> ...




SLOW YOUR A** DOWN YOU GOT A ZAPCO LOVER HERE. Zapco is good upper grade equipment I almost only use zacpo it is well build and designed equipment. I recommend it to anyone with ears that listens to real music. Secondly YOU DIDN'T BUY ZAPCO. Zapco was dismantled over 10 years ago. You bought maxilla, zapco was gone years ago they use the name and thats it zapco is all gone. Don't hate on zapco hate on maxilla or whatever that china company is. Now why you bought maxilla i don't know, i bought re audio components and had that happen i am sorry to here that. 
Third (i am correcting you) it is not about max output power in a sq system it is about the best sound and clean sound always leaving output headroom you saying you want high output rca drive in an amp that has plenty of gain then being mad at the fan for NOT raising the clipping limit is ludicrous, normal cooling NEVER raises the clipping limit. Now if you are talking about liquid nitrogen cooling or cooling an amp well below freezing will and a lot of other things that are awesome. The only reason for high driving is for low gain amps, rarely in car audio and usually in commercial service (stadiums clubs concerts and such). lastly gain is not volume it is amplification of a circuit. Volume is not gain it is spl levels. There is a BIG difference, proportion gain of head unit to amp gains in different modes will effect frequency production (and volume).


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

would the wrong gauge power and ground cause a problem such as this?i havent seen the op say what gauge he is using,just wondering,oh yeah,spicy pulled pork is good.


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## namesmeanlittle (Nov 20, 2013)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> would the wrong gauge power and ground cause a problem such as this?i havent seen the op say what gauge he is using,just wondering,oh yeah,spicy pulled pork is good.



Would certainly overwork the power supply making it really hot I've seen it happen on a old Zuse amp eggs and bacon with a side of burnt 10 gave wire


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

namesmeanlittle said:


> Would certainly overwork the power supply making it really hot I've seen it happen on a old Zuse amp eggs and bacon with a side of burnt 10 gave wire


ahhh good to know,i am glad i have 0 gauge ran to the back than 2 gauge to the amps,and yes,bacon is also mmmmmmmmm so good
:laugh:


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## namesmeanlittle (Nov 20, 2013)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> ahhh good to know,i am glad i have 0 gauge ran to the back than 2 gauge to the amps,and yes,bacon is also mmmmmmmmm so good
> :laugh:


In a few years I'll have a system in my 60 impala. I'm gonna use a 2100 as the bass amp I am going to put a skillet on it and cook while I bang my sheet metal I am dead serious.  I love my old monster class ab amp sounds more better.


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