# DSP integration 2017 Ford F250 with Sync3 and Sony



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Hello and thanks in advance for the input. 

I own a 2017 F250 king ranch with Nav, Sync3 and Sony sound. I am in the process of upgrading and have read so many different threads on the subject its a bit convoluted.

I have read everything from bypassing the Sony dsp, to just reprogramming the stock DSP for flat EQ curves using FORscan. I am hoping to outline my design objectives and get some feedback on how to proceed with the correct DSP configuration. 

My design objectives include:
Retain stock HU, Nav, Sync3 and steering wheel volume control functions
Retain stock speaker wire
Replace all speakers and subwoofer (undecided on center channel) 
Add amplifiers for doors and subwoofers
Add dampener to doors and floor 
Add DSP and or LOC to obtain clean signals to amplify
Make this truck sound great! 

I have purchased the following items for install:
2 Audio mobile EVO10 subwoofers
2 Audio mobile MCAR 10 passive radiators 
Illusion audio carbon C6 components 6.5 (front)
Illusion audio luccent L6 coaxial 6.5 (front) 
Zapco ST-4XSQ
Zapco ST-1350XM


I added the dual extra heavy duty alternator package to the truck when I ordered it so I shouldn't have any concerns with power. It has 2 270A alternators and 2 batteries. 


I am working on a subbox for under the rear seat, it will be cnc cut and built in .750 layers. 

I have alot of odd end parts to purchase still such as wiring, connectors for the stock audio harness (not cutting and splicing) 

The main issue I haven't sorted out is how to deal with the sony DSP and get a good clean signal for amplification without losing the factory controls. 

I have looked at Bit10, Helix pro and others but still not sure how to incorporate them. (will probably need help tuning them once i complete the install as well) 

Thanks for suggestions.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Isqrd_R said:


> .....The main issue I haven't sorted out is how to deal with the sony DSP and get a good clean signal for amplification without losing the factory controls. ......


IMHO your best approach is: 

1. Using FORScan reprogram your ACM (the in-dash tuner/amp module, distinctly separate from the Sony DSP/amp module) for variable-volume low-level output with no EQ/TA.

2. Using FORScan reprogram your APIM and implement the minor re-wire between the APIM and ACM so all your SYNC etc signals are routed to the ACM rather than the Sony DSP/amp module.

3. Completely remove the now-un-necessary Sony DSP/amp module.

4. Route your now low-level, De-Eq'd, no TA (in other words 'clean and flat') ACM output to the low-level input of whatever DSP you want to use which then feeds to the amps and speakers of your heart's desire.

The end-result is all your OEM SYNC, phone, voice command, steering wheel controls, NAV, etc, etc, etc will be retained and work as normal .... they'll just be routed through your new DSP>amps>speakers instead of through the missing Sony DSP/amp module. 

An overview of the concepts is provided here on a Fusion Forum thread Variable Line Level Preamp Outputs From ACM (Factory Radio) For Amplifier Upgrades

The details for all of this specific to various year F150s are found by search of F150 forums. To get you started see

https://www.f150forum.com/f118/forscan-software-enable-disable-features-your-truck-348987/ and the following docs linked from that thread

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-8dKaS_Spu4Zw4hV_CrKC4tLoP9G8yejqegF1wxIqxY/edit

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...iVSlDFGFHnfeuhb3RTMVz95730/edit#gid=815852466

____

Another approach might be possible using the PAC AMPRO module but I'm not sure that's available for your '17 F150 (yet?) and even if it is IMHO (_some_ others will disagree) it's a less 'elegant' solution because the Sony DSP module must remain in place and there's yet another component added to your audio chain.

There's numerous threads here about both approaches, search is your friend!

_____


Isqrd_R said:


> .... to just reprogramming the stock DSP for flat EQ curves using FORscan.


About this I'm 99.99% certain you are confused / mistaken. While there's lots of discussion about reprogramming the *ACM* to effect 'clean and flat' output, AFAIK no-one has found a way to reprogram the Sony DSP module to effect 'clean and flat' output from that module. The distinction is *very* important / different. IF you've found how to reprogram the Sony DSP module, please post a specific link, I need to update my knowledge-base


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

https://pac-audio.com/catalog/audio-interfacing/ap4-fd21


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

^^^ Cool, so the PAC AMPRO *is* listed as compatible with the '17 F250 Sony system. Still not _my_ preference but good to know the option is there.

Having options is always good!


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

As you pick your DSP keep your center channel in mind as you mentioned undecided. Having a true center channel from your DSP will probably determine whether you ditch it or not.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Thank you both for the input. 

I will read up on the PAC module soon as I get a free moment. 

I have not been able to find wiring diagrams for my 2017 F250 with Sony. 

I've stumbled on a link posted in another thread (http://www.bbbind.com/tech_database.html) however it doesn't show 2017 models yet. 

The 2015 & up F150 cab is the same as the 2017 F250. I thought the wiring would be the same but I haven't been able to verify that yet. My speaker wire outputs from the amp are the same as a 2016 F150 with sony but the other two connectors I'm not sure of. 

The 2016 truck shows audio signal inputs to the amp as solid wire colors but my harness has striped conductors not shown on the diagram.

If anyone know where I can obtain the diagrams for a 2017 F250 please let me know.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Have you compared your connectors/wires to the 2016 F250 diagrams that are available on the site you linked?

The ultimate source for diagrams is here but it'll cost $22 for 72 hour access and you must have a Windows PC, not a MAC.

https://www.motorcraftservice.com/Purchase/ViewProduct

^^^ BTDT, you'll get access to the full wiring diagrams for your year/model, all entertainment system options, including location and face-diagrams for every connector and pin-assignments + wire colors throughout. Truly a tremendous resource, IMHO and considering what we spend on our systems the cost is minimal.

TIP - before you pay for the 72-hour subscription get yourself setup with a freeware 'print to PDF' utility on your PC and set that 'PDF printer' as your system default. The subscription allows you to print any/every page you view using your system printer and saving to PDF rather than reams of paper is the way to go for later reference. You can save a TON of info in 72 hours, much easier and better formatted than cumbersome "print screen" methods.

If you do that I urge you to download data on both the Sony and non-Sony w/8" touchscreen for your year and model. Here's why .... if you go the reprogramming/ditch Sony DSP approach the minor APIM>ACM re-wire is basically a re-route of two of the of the APIM>DSP Sony wires to match the non-Sony routing APIM>ACM for those wires - by getting both version diagrams it's easy to figure out exactly which connector, pins and wire colors are involved.


----------



## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

Thanks FordEscape. I am looking into the Forscan route after not being happy with picking up after the Sony amp and now using the FR DSR1. I didn't notice the rewiring up front although it doesn't seem that involved other than tracing out which wires need to be spliced.

OP if going the Forscan route I believe the idatalink harness should give you all the wires you need without splicing the factory harness at the amp. The APIM/ACM rewire would still apply.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Thanks for the link, I will purchase the 72hr period and save all of the audio system drawings also.

I will look them over a good bit before coming back with more questions.

I think eleminating the Sony amp will be my first option depending on feasibility and any unwanted effects such as DTCs generated, error messages, loss of features ect..

This forum is awesome by the way, I'm getting all the information I need to work towards a solution, just takes time to read up on the suggestions and now follow the wire paths. 

Will report back after I have reviewed the correct wiring diagrams for Sony and non sony audio.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I used the motorcraft service link above to obtain wiring diagrams for the 2017 F250 and and the associated connectors. 

The non sony ACM speaker outputs -speaker inputs match the sony ACM outputs - DSP inputs. 

For this truck it looks like I will need to splice from APIM module, connector C2383A, pins 3&4 to ACM module, connector C240B, pins 8&21. VT and BU respectively.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Associated harness connectors


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

edit - NM, you got it!


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

connectors continued


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

FordEscape said:


> Another 'tip' .... be sure to print all the connector face diagrams (click a connector number on any schematic diagram and a window will 'pop-up' allowing you to view>print those). Invaluable resource having those details, IMHO.


Perfect thanks, I wasted some time looking them up individually, keep the good info coming :thumbsup:


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Isqrd_R said:


> Perfect thanks, I wasted some time looking them up individually, keep the good info coming :thumbsup:


If you click the C# on the schematic diagram the pop-up hyperlink also gives an option to view the 'connector location' on a chassis/harness view - that can be helpful to save, too.

Finally, while ya got the manual, go to the 'workshop manual' section and download all the sections relating to R&R of dashboard interior trim, door panels, audio modules, etc ..... will make life much easier when you go to do the actual upgrade installation, showing all the trim fasteners and removal sequences so you can accomplish all that with minimal hassle and 'trim/clip damages' 

Try to 'think ahead' about anything you may want to access / R&R during an install and grab those instructions - e.g door sill plates for routing power cables from the battery, etc., etc.

______
Obviously, before making any hardware/wiring changes you need to ensure you've got the 'other half of the equation' .... the reprogramming parameters/values that are applicable to your APIM and ACM. The Ford service manual is no help for that, there your gonna have to use those truck forum resources.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

If you know anyone with an @ford.com internal account they can access all of this info with just a vin # 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> If you know anyone with an @ford.com internal account they can access all of this info with just a vin #


True that!

I ended up just buying the CD ROM for my car .... it provides all the same as the online access, behaves just the same 'on screen'. Cost about $170 for mine but I'm into much more automotive/mechanical DIY than just audio mods so well worth it for me. Oh, and with all the nifty hyperlinking and indexing it's soooo much better than the old 'paper' workshop manuals.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I just wanted to add a kicker comp RT 8 inch woofer to the stock plastic sub box and stuff it with polyfill, how the hell did I balloon this project into a full install, pulling wire schematics, reprogramming, and pulling half the interior to sound deaden? :laugh:


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Anyone have thoughts on what to do with the center channel speaker? 
I had not planned to use it as a 5.1 setup but not sure of the pros/cons of doing so.


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

This new car integration stuff makes me want to blow my brains out. Sorry, I dont have much more to say..


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

rc10mike said:


> This new car integration stuff makes me want to blow my brains out. Sorry, I dont have much more to say..


I understand Sir, still follow the thread and see how this thing turns out. I plan to begin the install in about two more weeks long as I have all the details worked out.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Isqrd_R said:


> Anyone have thoughts on what to do with the center channel speaker?
> I had not planned to use it as a 5.1 setup but not sure of the pros/cons of doing so.


Hoo, boy, that's another 'can of worms' :laugh:

*All* of this IMHO (others may disagree):

*First *consideration is, do you listen alone most of the time or listen with passengers?

If you listen alone, you can get a fantastic 'single-seat front stage tune' _without_ a center channel - a center channel isn't needed at all.

If you want to provide a good listening experience for front seat passengers then a center channel can be useful when properly upmixed.

*Second* consideration if you want to accommodate that multi-position listening with a center channel ... can you find a DSP that really provides proper center-channel upmixing?

JBL MS8 (with Logic 7) and Alpine PXA-H800 (Dolby Pro Logic) are two examples of DSP that do provide a 'proper upmix' center channel that's great for multi-seat listener situations. There may be others but AFAIK very few - for others you'll have to 'mix and create' your own center using the DSP channel mixing capabilities.

*Third* consideration ... a poorly mixed center channel can _destroy_ an otherwise great front stage no matter how many listeners you 'tune' for.

*Finally*, it's impossible to create an 'optimal' tune for all positions in a multi-seat tune - the driver's position listening experience will always be at least slightly compromised when you tune for multiple positions. You can only create the 'perfect' tune for one position at a time.

Again, ^^ All IMHO ^^

There's tons of 'center channel: how-and-why to create one' threads here, suggest you do a lot more searching and researching on those before pursuing that highly specialized topic in this thread.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I mostly listen alone. 

My spouse and children ride with me on the weekends here and there but by far all the upgrading I'm doing is for my personal listening experience. 

If ditching the center channel reduces the complexity as far as additional amplifiers beyond the 4 ch ive already selected, available DSPs, and tunning difficulty then I will leave the center out of this build. 

The wiring will be at the back of the truck If I ever decide to give it a try. 

Thanks for the input


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Food for thought - depending on the dsp you choose, rather than wiring the sync alerts / signals into the whole setup use a small/cheap amp to run center channel purely for those (alerts/bluetooth phone/etc)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

What dsp are you using?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

It would be a cool feature to have a center dedicated for the sync audio stuff. 

I haven't decided on a DSP yet. I think going with the LL out from the audio control module now will eliminate the need for the best DSP out there. Im not knowledgeable on the subject yet and was going to read up on it more, hoping to spend less than 400 on a DSP.


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

unix_usr said:


> Food for thought - depending on the dsp you choose, rather than wiring the sync alerts / signals into the whole setup use a small/cheap amp to run center channel purely for those (alerts/bluetooth phone/etc)


Were you able to do this without music coming through your center channel as well?

I suppose you could go this route and input your music to DSP directly not through sync but then how do you not lose steering wheel controls/volume...thinking out loud now.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> Food for thought - depending on the dsp you choose, rather than wiring the sync alerts / signals into the whole setup use a small/cheap amp to run center channel purely for those (alerts/bluetooth phone/etc)


That's an interesting notion I've never considered or tested, so a few Q's to better understand the possibilities of that sort of arrangement ...

1. Is the 2-wire (ignoring the shield) 'SYNC alerts' output from the APIM an analog audio signal? 

2. If yes, is that only true when the APIM is 'reprogrammed' for non-Sony configuration / routing of those wires to the ACM? Or is that also true for the (not reprogrammed APIM) 'Sony configuration' where those wires would normally go to the Sony DSP module?

3. Again if 1 is yes, what's the ~voltage range (i.e. in the range of a 'normal' low-level audio output, 0~4 or ~8 VDC)?

4. When configured as OEM, or in the case of a Sony system re-programmed to route SYNC alert through the ACM>aftermarket DSP>amps, we can set the volume separately for many SYNC tones/voices by adjusting the volume at the ACM when a particular tone/voice is playing (i.e. when phone voice is playing I can adjust it loud so I'm sure to hear it; when NAV voice is playing I can turn it low if I want, but the phone voice will stay at the loud setting). Then of course there's the 'entertainment audio defeat' when the phone is in use. Will all that work same as OEM when "SYNC alert" bypasses the ACM and goes straight to a dedicated amp>speaker with the SYNC alerts wires?

5. Have you actually 'field tested' this arrangement?

TIA for helping better understand how this might work, though I'm not sure I see a particular advantage since the APIM>ACM>aftermarket DSP>aftermarket amps>speakers arrangement is proven to work just fine, absolutely retains all features same as OEM, and doesn't require any additional dedicated amp/speakers.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Was just an idea, i have not tested it or looked into it. I simply re-programmed my acm to send the signals (all; including sync/alerts) out the front left/right... i have the full specs on my laptop, I'll check into what the signal is. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Ah, OK, from your post I _assumed_ this 'SYNC bypass ACM' was something you already knew would work to some extent. My bad.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Isqrd_R said:


> It would be a cool feature to have a center dedicated for the sync audio stuff.
> 
> I haven't decided on a DSP yet. I think going with the LL out from the audio control module now will eliminate the need for the best DSP out there. Im not knowledgeable on the subject yet and was going to read up on it more, hoping to spend less than 400 on a DSP.




Check out the miniDSP - https://www.minidsp.com/products/car-audio-dsp/c-dsp-6x8

Both the minidsp (its hard-wired remote) and the oem Ford sync setup use CAN bus to communicate; I'm currently working on a project to make it a turn key replacement for the sony dsp/amp combo - ie use full range fixed line level output from the factory acm and have all the factory ford volume controls, etc communicate with the dsp to turn master volume up/dn, toggle presets, etc. 

Similar to the Rockford Fosgatr DSR1 - which to be honest fits your needs as-is and also available under your price point: www.rockfordfosgate.com/news/rockford-fosgate-dsr1-digital-signal-processor-now-available/




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

FordEscape said:


> That's an interesting notion I've never considered or tested, so a few Q's to better understand the possibilities of that sort of arrangement ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I do want to point out, APIM > ACM isn't really how it works... the apim is much like the steering wheel controls, it just sends/receives commands over CAN bus. I can literally replace the APIM with a script on a raspberry pi and the ACM works the same... the point is that the communication is bi-directional; one device broadcasts "request to turn master volume up", the other responds "ok, turned it to x of y"... the APIM in this case takes the response and displays it to you. There are literally tens of thousands of such messages every second on the CAN bus in these cars. If you have the right resources, you'd be amazed the amount of customization you could do 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> I do want to point out, APIM > ACM isn't really how it works...


yeah, that I understand .... my "APIM>ACM" notation was only meant to convey the SYNC alerts wiring scheme for the 'non-Sony' or 'Sony DSP delete' (distinct from wires running "APIM>DSP module" for the intact Sony DSP system), *not* to convey a 'direction of signal / communication'.

Your point about CAN is understood and is a large part of my list of Q's ..... I honestly didn't/don't know if the SYNC alerts circuits are CAN communication wires or analog audio signal wires. Obviously, if the former, then they don't lend to use as an input to a dedicated amp>speaker for broadcasting tones and voices to a listener.

And yes, I also understand that there's tons of potential for DIY CANBUS devices / mods .... but as you know that's well beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of readers, most of us lacking the OEM info you can access and the programming skills you've acquired and can bring to bear.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Afaik - the alerts are a mono fixed level audio signal. They are mixed into the audio source, but there is also a trigger mechanism to signal their use (ie: mute the radio for a call). Im without my laptop at the moment to look it up but I'm curious myself now too and i will follow up 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Did I stumble into a forum who's members are Ford automotive engineers? 

You all seem very knowledgeable on the subject and I promise I'm teachable. I was an aviation electronic technicIan in the navy and now an electrical engineer. I worked radar in the navy and studied / work in the power industry so if it isn't 3 phase 120 deg apart @ 60hz I keep my mouth shut and let other teach me. 

I have two questions:
1) Has anyone successfully eliminated the sony/dsp and retained all factory features?
2) Do either of you know how to implement the changes via Forscan to accomplish the above? I've reviewed the excel doc but not 100% clear on what I need to change for my specific truck with sync

Thank you both for the useful info and "tech support"


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> Afaik - the alerts are a mono fixed level audio signal.


That's very possible - looking at my wiring diagrams I now see that the SYNC alert wires are labeled (+) and (-) so that surely indicates analog VDC as opposed to digital CANBUS communication on those wires. (?)



unix_usr said:


> They are mixed into the audio source, but there is also a trigger mechanism to signal their use (ie: mute the radio for a call).


Yeah, that's the sort of thing that makes me wonder if all the features will still 'behave right' if SYNC alert bypasses the ACM. Look forward to learning what you find on further research!


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

FordEscape said:


> Yeah, that's the sort of thing that makes me wonder if all the features will still 'behave right' if SYNC alert bypasses the ACM. Look forward to learning what you find on further research!


I too will be following if any doors open to my current Sync 2 limitation. Aside from a costly $1600 upgrade to Sync 3 I'm stuck with USB local stored files only. While I'm trying to add my streamed services (Tidal/Spotify) via USB as well instead of bluetooth/aux.

Obviously while not losing OEM features.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Isqrd_R said:


> Did I stumble into a forum who's members are Ford automotive engineers?


 Not me, I'll let 'unix' answer for himself but I think he's at least 'affiliated'  



Isqrd_R said:


> 1) Has anyone successfully eliminated the sony/dsp and retained all factory features?


Absolutely yes, many on this and other forums on a variety of 'Sony system' Ford vehicles, both SYNC2 and SYNC3.



Isqrd_R said:


> 2) Do either of you know how to implement the changes via Forscan to accomplish the above? I've reviewed the excel doc but not 100% clear on what I need to change for my specific truck with sync


 I've personally used FORScan to alter module programming of several of my systems (ACM, APIM, BCM, Central CONFIG, etc, etc) for purposes of audio mods, lighting behavior mods, DIY enabling of OEM NAV (mine did not come with NAV from the factory but now has it running exactly as if it did including turn-by-turn display in the IPC display between the instruments ;-), enable global open of windows from my keyfob remote, etc, etc.

If you'll post a link to the F250 spreadsheet you're referencing, I'll take a look and try to help.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Hey, while you've got access to the Ford Service Website .... bang around the menu and see if there's an option to enter your VIN and download your vehicle module programming "as-built" - that'd be very useful if you aren't yet set up with FORScan and an OBD interface to download that from your vehicle yourself.

You're looking for something similar to the attached for your vehicle (probably a lot more lines for yours)


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

The FORScan software & module coding information I was referring to as an excel sheet is what you first shared at the top of the thread. 

Unix, do you know where/ how one might obtain specific information for a 2017 F250 with VIN 1FT7W2BT2HEE13648?

Is it even nessary or will the information in the excel sheet shared above by Ford Escape be sufficient?


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

FordEscape said:


> Hey, while you've got access to the Ford Service Website .... bang around the menu and see if there's an option to enter your VIN and download your vehicle module programming "as-built" - that'd be very useful if you aren't yet set up with FORScan and an OBD interface to download that from your vehicle yourself.
> 
> You're looking for something similar to the attached for your vehicle (probably a lot more lines for yours)


Okay sounds good, I'll have to wait to access that from home later this evening. I'll see what I can find and report back.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Isqrd_R said:


> The FORScan software & module coding information I was referring to as an excel sheet is what you first shared at the top of the thread.


OK, gotchya. Noting that's developed for F150, and likely will work, see below.

The three reprogramming changes of interest to you are presented on the "Common" tab, lines 85-87 under the heading "*Variable Line Level Preamp Outputs From ACM (for adding aftermarket amp without sound clipping)*". All three address alterations (ACM 727-01-01, ACM 727-01-02, APIM 7D0-01-01) would apply in your case.

Again, see the following



Isqrd_R said:


> Is it even nessary or will the information in the excel sheet shared above by Ford Escape be sufficient?


IMHO by comparing your as-built to the data on the mods spreadsheet you can gain confidence that the address mods listed for the F150 will work / are appropriate for your F250 (does your as built have those addresses and are they formatted the same as on the spreadsheet). IMHO in the case of the ACM and APIM parameters of interest for this specific situation the likelihood that all is the same and will work is very high (those specific edits work on a wide-range of late for vehicles, including my Escape, as they are apparently and thankfully consistent among most ACM/APIM modules) 

FYI, even if for some rare reason the re-programming doesn't do what's anticipated, it will not 'brick' your car or anything like that - you can just 'restore' the OEM by re-editing back to the original hex code with FORScan.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I found the AS BUILT data for my truck.

I saved it to pdf and the .ab file type.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Looks like in can't upload the .ab as an attachment. 

The pdf copy of (as built) is attached


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Isqrd_R said:


> The FORScan software & module coding information I was referring to as an excel sheet is what you first shared at the top of the thread.
> 
> Unix, do you know where/ how one might obtain specific information for a 2017 F250 with VIN 1FT7W2BT2HEE13648?
> 
> Is it even nessary or will the information in the excel sheet shared above by Ford Escape be sufficient?




I am technically an (software/network) engineer working for Ford... but I'm not an automotive engineer. I do directly know the audio engineering folks who set this stuff up though  Outside of work I'm an avid self-described audiophile with a penchant for expensive hobbies 

Im out of office the office until next week, PM me that VIN number and I will see what I can find out for you. I will however state that un-equivocally, even without any official access, the information and tools to accomplish what you want are freely available and it has been done many times over (personally I have done aftermarket DSP, amps, speakers in at least a half a dozen or so current gen Ford vehicles).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Jumping back to the DSP question for a bit of a ramble on that for your consideration (all this 'given' that you reprogram your car for LL / flat ACM output and ditch the Sony DSP) ....

*First* the OP proposed system -
4-channel zapco driving FR, FL, RL and RR speakers
1-channel zapco driving subs

The Rear speakers are coax, no worries, each on one channel of the zapco amp.

The Front speakers are components with each 'side/set' on one channel of the zapco amp; OK for 'starters', the 7-level tweeter attenuation in the passive XO will help with 'level setting' the tweeter vs the woofers. But recognize that since each side will be on one channel (as opposed to bi-amp) any 'tuning' of level between the tweeter and woofer is only what you can do with the XO and the tweeter and woofer will always be on the same timing.

Given that the front woofers and tweeters are far-apart physical locations, that timing will be a 'less than optimal' compromise. Yes, the Carbon C6 components allow bi-amp but you don't have the amp channels to use that.

Subs on another amp/channel, no worries.

SO, in theory, all you need for that system is 5-channels of DSP that's able to tune EQ and TA for each of the 2-Front, 2-Rear and 1-sub channels. Lots of DSPs available to do that cheap.
_____

*Now* let's look at a slightly different approach designed to allow better optimization of your critical front stage ....

IMHO the 'key' to this is bi-amping the front stage so you can optimize the EQ and TA for your physically-separate front tweeters and woofers.

For this, along with your coax rear speakers subs, you need a total of 7-channels of amp and 7-channels of DSP. You use four of those 7 for the front, one channel for each separate tweeter/woofer. The DSP allows you to _exactly_ tune EQ and TA for each speaker. The DSP would also make the external passive XO un-necessary, the DSP will provide the XO capability needed.

You could do this as a 'growth plan' from the OP plan - as long as you get a DSP with 7-channel capability you could just add a 2-channel amp (e.g. keep the front woofers on the original zapco with the rears and add a new 2-channel amp which could be a bit lower power since the tweeters will demand less than the woofers when all is tuned).
_____

*Let's* look a bit at where your money is going .....
Your OP has you buying some very nice amps and speakers, but part of the $ is going toward features that are 'redundant' if you go the 7-channel DSP route:
- The sophisticated filter/XO capabilities of the zapco ST-4XSQ will be 'defeated' if you use a DSP to provide your active XO needs
- The nice passive XO with the Carbon C6 will also be 'ditched' since the DSP will handle those duties.

The point? If you step back and now look at things from the perspective of overall system design, you just might find you can get more bang for the same buck by shopping for DSP, amp and speakers that are tailored to the 'system plan' that has evolved:

A DSP with 7-channels of EQ, TA and active XO (again, lots of options)
6+1 channels of amp, minimal XO/filtering (preferred is the ability to completely and easily defeat / bypass all amp XO/filters)
Front 'raw' component speakers with no passive XO at all.
_____

With the ACM / APIM mods already planned, you don't need any 'Maestro' or similar 'OEM controls integration' features on your DSP - you just need to accommodate 4 low-level inputs from your source (your reprogrammed ACM will have FL, FR, RL and RR outputs) and all your OEM controls will still be functional. You may only use the front inputs for a full-spectrum feed to your DSP, which is fine; I 'hedge' because on my Escape with re-programmed ACM the back-up proximity alarm is only on my rear output channels, so I must route both Front and Rear ACM outputs to my DSP to hear that specific alarm; as long as I do that, all is 100% as OEM; if you don't have any SYNC tones on your F250 rear channels, there's no reason to send 'em to your DSP.

It would be nice to have a DSP that will allow you to 'save and recall' at least two different 'tunes' - one optimized for you alone (the 'ideal' one-listener SQ tune'), one for when ya got the spouse and kids (a 'compromise' but they'll enjoy it more). Maybe a third for when it's just you and the spouse with no-one in the rear.

Do you 'need' a DSP (or DSP remote control) with the ability to easily adjust the tune on-the-fly? IMHO no. Once I got my DSP properly tuned I never feel the need to adjust anything on-the-fly. The only thing I ever touch on my MS8 remote is the button to toggle between 'me alone' and 'me with others' settings when I first get in the car.

I do, when my rare 'bass-head' mood strikes, tweak a 'bass boost' knob on my system for a particularly thumping track. Not often, and this is admittedly corrupting the 'proper' tune to suite my odd mood. That can be accommodated with a sub-amp that offers a remote bass-boost knob if you want.
_____

Maybe all that opinion is helpful, my apology if not / a waste of thread space and reading time.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Not a waste at all I appreciate the help and insight. Sending PM


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

EvAnA said:


> I too will be following if any doors open to my current Sync 2 limitation. Aside from a costly $1600 upgrade to Sync 3 I'm stuck with USB local stored files only. While I'm trying to add my streamed services (Tidal/Spotify) via USB as well instead of bluetooth/aux.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously while not losing OEM features.




That is unfortunately a whole different ballgame. Sync 2 is Microsoft windows based - the computer behind it and the os it's running specifically in this case are the limiting factors with regards to what media files it can index, play, etc. The rom for Sync is not easily hacked nor extended... they key to the CAN bus hacks is such that the hardware used for audio is very much utilitarian so it can be re-purposed for multiple vehicle lines and thereby increase economy of scale. 

Sync 3 on the other hand, while using a similar hardware platform is actually running the QNX operating system (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX?wprov=sfti1 - lol my first experience with QNX being an Ontario native was in kindergarten ) - personal bias for it being a unix derivative and all aside - it is vastly superior in user interface and capability than Sync 2. I haven't yet tried to mess with it, but i would imagine Sync 3 to be a lot easier to extend too (ie add a different media player or library to automagically support file format _x_)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Not sure if someone edited this post - i thought i saw FordEscape post a suggestion regarding amplifier channel setup, front stage vs rear coax and etc? I didn't finish reading and not sure where it went?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

unix_usr said:


> Not sure if someone edited this post - i thought i saw FordEscape post a suggestion regarding amplifier channel setup, front stage vs rear coax and etc? I didn't finish reading and not sure where it went?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




To clarify - what i was reading appeared to be opinion based suggestion regarding using dsp channels to separate the front components instead of using passive xovers... a sentiment i couldn't echo louder if i tried. I would honestly put rear coax on a back burner and concentrate resources on the front first. I have had no rear speakers in my last three cars and even with my kids listening in the backseat it sounds great and is a ton easier to setup/tune right. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Unix, thanks for lending your expertise on the subject. 

I'm clear on the sony amp /dsp delete and re wire. I am going to rethink the DSP and aftermarket amplifier setup. I see the value in ditching the crossovers and tuning with the DSP. 

I'm not made of money here but I can swap amps out to keep from cobbling together a less optimum stereo in a 70k truck. 

Id like to swap the zapco st-4x sq for the 6 ch version st-6x sq. Problem is its not available for purchase yet so I might have to be patient. I also have an old JL 300/4 I could substitute in on the rear or front just temporarily until the st-6x sq comes available. 

My main objectives were to retain factory functions and controls and also make it sound great. If I need to move some things around to achieve that, no problem, I haven't turned a wrench yet just planning it out.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

I agree with Unix that using the currently planned 4-ch amp for an 'active' front stage is a very attractive approach for best 'single seat optimized' listening experience. The 'rear' is really unnecessary for that.

To a fault I keep relating to my MS8 experience where Logic 7 is used to create 'ambient rear fill' with my rear speakers .... as Unix implies those rear speakers are much less important / useful with a DSP that lacks something like Logic 7 or Dolby to create that ambient environment with the rears.

You could still add the rears later with a 2-ch amp if you wanted, again an easy 'expansion' easy as long as your DSP had the channels available and 'waiting'.

Bottom line, and to revise my earlier opinion, _starting_ with an active front on 4-channels with no rear as suggested by Unix _does_ make a lot more sense than starting with a passive front with rears on the 4-ch amp.
____

'UNIX' - you were referring to my ramble at this post - Thanks for your _better idea_ about a 'phased approach'


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

unix_usr said:


> That is unfortunately a whole different ballgame. Sync 2 is Microsoft windows based - the computer behind it and the os it's running specifically in this case are the limiting factors with regards to what media files it can index, play, etc. The rom for Sync is not easily hacked nor extended... they key to the CAN bus hacks is such that the hardware used for audio is very much utilitarian so it can be re-purposed for multiple vehicle lines and thereby increase economy of scale.
> 
> Sync 3 on the other hand, while using a similar hardware platform is actually running the QNX operating system (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX?wprov=sfti1 - lol my first experience with QNX being an Ontario native was in kindergarten ) - personal bias for it being a unix derivative and all aside - it is vastly superior in user interface and capability than Sync 2. I haven't yet tried to mess with it, but i would imagine Sync 3 to be a lot easier to extend too (ie add a different media player or library to automagically support file format _x_)


I figured as much...one day I'll probably just do the Sync 3. Hoping the kit prices go down over time. It's hard to drop that much $$ on basically another stock head unit system, but to add FLAC support..Android Auto...USB phone apps instead of Bluetooth...same OEM integration...:surprised::surprised:


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

EvAnA said:


> I figured as much...one day I'll probably just do the Sync 3. Hoping the kit prices go down over time. It's hard to drop that much $$ on basically another stock head unit system, but to add FLAC support..Android Auto...USB phone apps instead of Bluetooth...same OEM integration...:surprised::surprised:


Keep watching the Ford forums ... there's nothing 'magic' in the currently available $$ SYNC2 > SYNC3 upgrade kits other than the programming knowledge in the 'OBD programmer dongle' they provide.

History suggests that sooner or later _someone_ is bound to leak/develop/make that knowledge available on the web - then we'll be able to DIY the upgrade with FORScan, an ebay / salvage APIM + FDIM (screen) swap, plus a bit of harness wiring tedium - likely at _much_ less cost. :laugh:

Examples - the knowledge finally published on forums that allowed me to enable OEM NAV on my Escape (no hardware swap required - just had to buy the map SD card); the forum knowledge that allowed me to swap a 'Sony ACM with HD radio tuner' for my non-Sony ACM without HD radio tuner and then reprogram it all to provide full OEM HD radio functionality on my touchscreen. 
____

Someone here mentioned they hate modern cars with integrated entertainment systems ... _not me_, I love the features they provide!

True story - I'm an olde phart that 'grew up' learning how to mod and tune competition cars and bikes with mechanical distributors and carbs. Had a 'fit' when things went electronic ignition and ECM-controlled fuel injection. But then I learned how to manipulate those and wouldn't go back to the 'old ways' for anything now (well, I do love playing with the carbs on my old Ducati to 'keep my hand in'). IMHO it's the same with the integrated entertainment stuff - stay flexible, keep learning, and all is much better (and tons of fun, too) in the long run! Don't be a Luddite! :laugh:


----------



## HDF250 (Jan 16, 2018)

Great thread! I am in the process of planning out my 2017 F250 single cab build and learned a lot. I also appreciate all the wiring diagrams. I may reach out to a few of you for help in the near future.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Yes definitely let me know if you have any questions, I've picked up alot of information and can share with you. I also have the factory removal and install instructions for just about the whole interior. 

I have been waiting on my new zapco 6ch st 6x sq amp to arrive from pre order and currently building my sub box. Was going to use the 4ch till I learned i needed tweeters separate for proper alignment.

I decided on jbl ms8 for the dsp and picked up a used on on ebay. 

I bought the idata link harness set to make the install clean, have a harness for speaker wires and built rca inputs for the dsp. Also has a switched 6v wire for the ms8 remote turn on lead (manual calls for 4V+) I just removed all conductors that I won't be using from this harness kit.

I have used forscan on my truck to make some changes and everything I've tried thus far has worked so it's fair to assume the stereo forscan changes will work. 

Working on an amp rack and sub box now, the sub box is something I designed and it's being cut with a cnc router and will be glued together in layers.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Worth noting - if you're going with the JBL MS-8 anyways and all .... it does have an internal amplifier you could easily run your tweeters from. In my 2013 Ford Fusion I used an MS-8 and a Zapco ST-4x - ran tweeters and center channel off of the MS-8 own amplifier channels and rest on the ST-4x (minus sub - on a Zapco DC500.1)... food for thought, for most installs the MS-8 amp is plenty on your tweeters at least.


----------



## HDF250 (Jan 16, 2018)

Isqrd_R said:


> Yes definitely let me know if you have any questions, I've picked up alot of information and can share with you. I also have the factory removal and install instructions for just about the whole interior.
> 
> I have been waiting on my new zapco 6ch st 6x sq amp to arrive from pre order and currently building my sub box. Was going to use the 4ch till I learned i needed tweeters separate for proper alignment.
> 
> ...


I will definitely be asking questions about stereo and FORSCAN. I will PM you.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Why not just use a PAC amp pro?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> Why not just use a PAC amp pro?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Note the irony - forum is called "DIY"


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Why not just use a PAC amp pro?





unix_usr said:


> Note the irony - forum is called "DIY"


LIKE that reply 

(it _isn't_ a comment on PAC amp pro)


----------



## Zoom_M5 (Oct 28, 2017)

Isqrd_R said:


> I also have the factory removal and install instructions for just about the whole interior.


I love where you are headed with this truck! I'll be following your footsteps at some point with my 2017 F350...

Any chance you could share the interior removal/install instructions?


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I think removing the factory amplifier all together was the best approach. I like the unique auto tune features of the ms8. By going with a 6ch amp I now have room to upgrade the dsp down the road if I want to try tuning it myself. 

As far as the center channel, it's been expressed to me that ms8 will set the front stage according to the weakest link so I have a nice sq zapco amp on the way and illusion audio carbon c6 set for the front. Retail on those was $999. Don't really want to drag those components down with a cheaper center ran off of ms8 internal amp. 

I'm way too deep in this to change it up now, I've got some factory color matched vinyl on the way from katzkin and waiting on my amps.

I'll be happy to share the interior instructions. Give me a few days to get them posted. I've been laid up ill with a fever for a few days and will have to get motivated to get on my laptop.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I've got all my cables and misc parts ready also. 

Here's the idatalink harness I mentioned, I have removed all the conductors I won't be using. Basically have 6ch speaker wires , rca inputs for FL FR RL RR , and power wires for ms8. One of those wires is switched 6v, it remains even after changing with forscan to tell the truck there is no sony dsp. 

This is nice because we aren't cutting and hacking the factory harness, simply unplugging the sony dsp then plugging our new harnesses into those existing plugs


----------



## SouthernFried (Jan 19, 2018)

I joined this forum just because of this thread, which came up on a general google search. It's been a great read, thanks. And yeah...I have a question 

Just bought a 2018 Ford f250 Lariat. It has Sony system and Sync3. I'm a musician and the first thing I noticed driving it home, was that sound ain't gonna work. lol. I went to a car audio place and they were just gonna swap the Sony Amp for a better Amp. Sounded cool to me. Was going to schedule for next week. 

Then I came here...lol. 

I'm thinking that ain't such a great idea and I may lose some features. Don't want that. Is that true? Cuz the audio installer guy didn't mention it at all. 

Then I read about DSP, which I'm familiar with in recording studios. Then I read about the Sony Amp having DSP in it along with a buncha other stuff. Then I read about some PAN pre-amp DSP thingys and something called FORScam and separate amps for middle channels and...now I'm scared to death to do a damn thing. 

I agree with those who said you really only really need the front speakers. In the 70's, I had a Kenwood system (with cassette) and just 2 door speakers. And it woulda blown the **** outta this 9 speaker/subwoofer monstrosity I'm listening to now (except for the bass thumps, which I can do without) Clean and Clear sound. Plus, it was all analog...which I've always preferred to digital just cuz I'm old...


Anyway, is there something really, really simple that someone like me could do and not mess up to make this system listenable? Like just changing the speakers? I can do that. I don't think I want the audio guy changing out the amp anymore. lol. 

If you got any simple suggestions, I could use 'em  Either way, it was great reading this thread. Thanks - Steve


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking the "premium" sound package sounds like crap. 

If you have syn3 and sony then those sync alerts are routed to the sony amp--which is also the the crappy dsp. They can be rewired as in a non sony model with sync3 .

Sync module connector 2383A pins 3&4 to audio control module connector 240B pins 8&21. 


Then there also the forscan changes to make the audio signal variable low voltage. That really just gets us a clean slate to build on. 

People have done this successfully and I will implement it also but I'm not certain in would trust my new truck to someone else personally. It may not be that difficult but just people in general don't give your stuff the same attention to detail as you would. 

I haven't tried to implement other aftermarket integration gear so I really can't offer an opinion on how they improve sound.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Here's the re wire and the connector inserts we need


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Got my mdf cuts from routing today, looks pretty good. I will be gluing it up this weekend.


----------



## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

SouthernFried said:


> I joined this forum just because of this thread, which came up on a general google search. It's been a great read, thanks. And yeah...I have a question
> 
> Just bought a 2018 Ford f250 Lariat. It has Sony system and Sync3. I'm a musician and the first thing I noticed driving it home, was that sound ain't gonna work. lol. I went to a car audio place and they were just gonna swap the Sony Amp for a better Amp. Sounded cool to me. Was going to schedule for next week.
> 
> ...


The Sony system incorporates a DSP into the amp but that's not really the issue here. The factory system does not have a variable output preamp signal as there is a fixed output audio output and a data signal to the Sony amp to control volume and such. To add aftermarket amps you either have to get signal after the Sony amp(I don't recommend this), use an integration piece such as the PAC ampro or RF DSR1(I don't recommend the DSR1), or use forscan to rewrite code in the factory software to accommodate what you are doing. 

Depending on what your expectations are I have heard on Ford forums some people are quite happy with the results of just upgrading drivers but again your expectations and desired results play a big part into how happy you will be with just that.


----------



## SouthernFried (Jan 19, 2018)

Isqrd_R said:


> If you have syn3 and sony then those sync alerts are routed to the sony amp--which is also the the crappy dsp. They can be rewired as in a non sony model with sync3 .
> 
> Sync module connector 2383A pins 3&4 to audio control module connector 240B pins 8&21.


This sounds interesting. Would you still even have a need for an interface with a new amp?


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

SouthernFried said:


> This sounds interesting. Would you still even have a need for an interface with a new amp?



Yes because Nav prompts, voice command "feedback", proximity alarms, and collision alerts ect are routed to the DSP/AMP via those two wires. After the rewire and forscan changes those signals go out the stereo outputs instead.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Finally got the sub box glued up. I have to sand it once more, round the edges and give it an epoxy coat. I epoxied half of it before I put the top on so I could get inside the chambers well. 

Should be a very nice fit.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Sub box built from this model I made. Sliced it up in .750 increments and cut them from 3/4 mdf with a cnc router. I didn't see any pre fab boxes out there the had radius edges and not protruding from underneath the seat. 

I had to add just a bit of clearance for the woofer magnets but was aware of that when I made the model. I was trying to maximize the baffle to floor clearance which drove the woofers uo into the enclosure top.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Looks like the fit is good! Its going to get covered by an upholstery shop this week. Just need to receive my zapco amps and we'll get this install completed.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I wanted to give anyone following the thread an update and a heads up regarding the forscan changes. 

While waiting for my zapco amps and sub box upholstery I got bored and installed the jbl ms8 to the factory speakers. 

I used my modified idatalink harnesses and wired the ms8 as 6ch doors and tweeters. I made the forscan changes as outlined in the Google doc. I did NOT perform the rewire between sync module and APIM module. 

The results were pretty good with the ms8. 
As far as I can tell so far, the only function not working without performing the re wire is incoming phone calls do not ring. The stereo still mutes and you see the call on the display. Volume for stereo/phone are retained as last used.

The following features worked without re wire: door chime, low fuel chime, blue tooth phone call, sync commands, sync chime/feedback, back up alarm and collision alert. Yeah I tested all those on my way to work today 

If all i am missing out on is a phone call ring, I'll probably just skip the rewire. 

On a side note, my switched 6v from the audio enable wire used for remote turn on is very unreliable, I'll be looking for better switched source to turn it on/off.


----------



## Zoom_M5 (Oct 28, 2017)

I came across this on one of the Ford Boards, its what I'm planning to do:

"Tap the amp and DSP power turn on leads to the AC/DC inverter. It's located behind the seat on the passenger side and *WILL* turn off under load shedding. The Battery Monitoring System (BMS) will load-shed the OEM audio if needed to preserve starting voltage as well as the aftermarket amps in this configuration."


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

When I used my MS-8 in a 2013 Ford Fusion with Sync - I used the USB port on the back of the Sync screen, it provided reliable 5v power output to the MS-8 turn-on lead and turned on/off with Sync... the power inverter works as acc power (I've done a few F150 with that too actually) but the MS-8 doesn't need 12v for turn-on...


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Do you know which conductor to tap at the DC/AC converter?


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

PM me your VIN# ... I can look it up for you.


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing and hearing your thoughts with the amps installed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> Why not just use a PAC amp pro?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


I'm with you. Or an iDatalink AR+Audison Prima/Kenwood XR6006 amplifier and call it a day. At the end of the day, this is just a car. Lol


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Any updates - get it working?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Angrywhopper said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > Why not just use a PAC amp pro?
> ...


Yes Sir I understand that, the forscan changes worked like a champ and the ms8 made the stock speakers sound pretty damn good. Can't wait to hear the whole install.

If any of you are like me then you get idle hands pretty easily and projects are more fun than therapy; )


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

unix_usr said:


> Any updates - get it working?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just got the zapco amps today. Ive located and drilled holes for the equipment, should have the whole project wrapped up this weekend. 

I got about half of the holes tapped in my mounting plate and broke the tap,, looks like another trip to the hardware store tomorrow. I fabbed it from 1/8" steel bc wood wouldn't work due to serious space constraints.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I'm starting the install this weekend . Ive got my OR prepped and ready. The majority of the work will be in removing the interior for sound damping and reinstalling. 

Unfortunately I don't have my sub box back from the upholstery shop but that won't hold up the rest of the project. 

I'm basically rolling this thread into a build log. Here goes.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Finished the amp rack, covered with black vinyl and tested the fit.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Competed the harnesses to integrate into factory connections (previously on sony dsp)


----------



## HDF250 (Jan 16, 2018)

Looking good man. I really like the amp rack. I would love to have your CAD file so I can have my plasma guy cut one for me.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

HDF250 said:


> Looking good man. I really like the amp rack. I would love to have your CAD file so I can have my plasma guy cut one for me.


Sure no problem, I will share the sub box too if interested. Perhaps it could be modified to fit other drivers.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Ready to begin installing the dynamat. 

Found a broken cab vent on the back wall. Some turd on the assembly line didn't want to cause a production hick up and let it fly I guess.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Completed the floor and rear cab wall today, I'll have to leave it alone till Wed due to a work trip.


----------



## tricon (Aug 22, 2011)

Hey fellow Ford-trucks.com member! I thought I recognized those pics from somewhere.

Install is looking awesome, can't wait to hear your impressions.

I bought my 2017 F250 6.7L without the Sony system since I knew I was going to replace it all anyways. Way easier install without that crap DSP to screw with. I've installed some Infinity Kappa Perfect 600's in the front and 2 Infinity Reference 10's behind the rear seat in a glassed and MDF box I made. a Pioneer amp for the subs and kenwood 2x200 for the fronts. The sound is amazing, my favorite install so far. A C-DSP 6x8 is on my short list.

I have one question for you guys. Since I installed the front components and amp, my door chimes and backup sensor now only play through my IPC, I dont get any sound in the stereo for them. I just cut the front door speaker leads and ran the high levels to my amp. I didnt think it would screw with the chimes function. Any ideas there, something I can change in FORscan or IDS?


----------



## tricon (Aug 22, 2011)

Found an F150 post with the same issue. Seems they haven't figured it out yet either. Hmm...

https://www.f150forum.com/f30/chime...kers-after-aftermarket-stereo-install-391813/


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

tricon said:


> I have one question for you guys. Since I installed the front components and amp, my door chimes and backup sensor now only play through my IPC, I dont get any sound in the stereo for them. I just cut the front door speaker leads and ran the high levels to my amp. I didnt think it would screw with the chimes function. Any ideas there, something I can change in FORscan or IDS?


I believe the chimes you're looking for reside on the rear channels. Are the rears still running off factory headunit?


----------



## tricon (Aug 22, 2011)

EvAnA said:


> I believe the chimes you're looking for reside on the rear channels. Are the rears still running off factory headunit?


Yes they are, I installed some Polk DB coaxials I had laying around, no amp to them, only to the front components. They play sound just fine on the stereo. Just the chimes are gone.

Someone mentioned that the Sync system reverts back to the IPC chime if it detects a speaker fault. I wonder if its something of that nature...


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

tricon said:


> Yes they are, I installed some Polk DB coaxials I had laying around, no amp to them, only to the front components. They play sound just fine on the stereo. Just the chimes are gone.
> 
> Someone mentioned that the Sync system reverts back to the IPC chime if it detects a speaker fault. I wonder if its something of that nature...


As long as it's still the same in newer 2017 vehicles (which I believe it is) you can use Forscan to disable "Open Speaker Circuit Detection". Sounds like that's what you're experiencing.

I had to disable that in my 2015 F150 to get chimes back, but I also have front and rear signals going to a processor instead.

You'll want to confirm the proper codes for your vehicle but this post got me going down the right track.

Variable Line Level Preamp Outputs From ACM (Factory Radio) For Amplifier Upgrades


----------



## tricon (Aug 22, 2011)

EvAnA said:


> As long as it's still the same in newer 2017 vehicles (which I believe it is) you can use Forscan to disable "Open Speaker Circuit Detection". Sounds like that's what you're experiencing.
> 
> I had to disable that in my 2015 F150 to get chimes back, but I also have front and rear signals going to a processor instead.
> 
> ...


That sounds like the right path, thanks man...what the hell did we do before online forums? 

Sorry to hijack your thread OP!


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Sorry to hijack your thread OP![/QUOTE]

No worries, it's all good information in this thread and that just added to the useful content.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

You also want to disable the processing done in the oem acm module if you're using aftermarket speakers and amps - HUGE difference. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tricon (Aug 22, 2011)

unix_usr said:


> You also want to disable the processing done in the oem acm module if you're using aftermarket speakers and amps - HUGE difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I disable the processing on the whole system, will that screw with my rear channels since they are still hooked up to the Sync HU amp?

I disabled the speaker detection fault, it brought my HU touch beeps back, but back up sensor and door chimes still coming through the IPC. Not sure what else to try at this point.


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

Disabling the processing will not turn off the amplifier/channel outputs - your rear speakers will just start getting full-range (they presently have crossovers for high-pass, and eq applied specifically towards the measured response of the factory speakers in oem install - if you change the speakers at all, even if never used an aftermarket amp - you should turn off the processing). 

Using ForScan, you essentially set the EQ preset to zero - which is full/flat/no-x-overs - 727-02 is the as-built, setting the second byte to 00 will defeat this processing.

Time alignment is effectively turned off when you change listener position to "all" instead of driver/passenger/etc. If you're not using a processor after at all - there's little effect as it will just time align your mids on the front channels.


----------



## tricon (Aug 22, 2011)

OP I'm curious, have you gotten everything installed and running yet? Curious if you've lost your chimes as well. I only get them through the IPC no matter what I try.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

tricon said:


> OP I'm curious, have you gotten everything installed and running yet? Curious if you've lost your chimes as well. I only get them through the IPC no matter what I try.


I had mentioned in an earlier post that I tested the ms8 and forscan changes without performing the re wire of the sync alert from ACM to APIM.

My results were successful integration except incoming phone calls do not ring. I get sync chimes and feedback, door chimes, collision alert, proximity alarms, turn signal, seat belt chimes ect.. the audio is muted during an incoming call and the call is shown on the display, just no ring. 

I am proceeding without the re wire bc everything else works. I have taken the Front and rear left and right 4 channels that previously went to the sony amp and attached rcas. Those are now going to ms8 inputs 1-4. That may be specific to trucks with the sony dsp so you'll have to verify. 

I'm still working on installing the dynamat now but did verify it all worked with the ms8 and factory speakers. I took the sony amp out all together.


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

Isqrd_R said:


> I had mentioned in an earlier post that I tested the ms8 and forscan changes without performing the re wire of the sync alert from ACM to APIM.
> 
> My results were successful integration except incoming phone calls do not ring. I get sync chimes and feedback, door chimes, collision alert, proximity alarms, turn signal, seat belt chimes ect.. the audio is muted during an incoming call and the call is shown on the display, just no ring.
> 
> ...


Have either of you tried disabling the center channel output (if you had a stock one) in Forscan?


----------



## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

I have disabled center channel before on a few different Fords - next-up is doing so on my mustang.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

For my sony set up, it took the 4 ch in and the dsp created the center channel so nothing to disable for the center channel.

After some input and consideration from others in this thread, I decided to leave the center out of my build. Have a 6ch amp for tweeters, front and rear doors. 

I had shared wiring diagrams for Sony and non sony in here as well.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I should have this project wrapped up this weekend. 

I finished the dynamat install. Got 100% coverage of floor, rear cab wall, interior and exterior doors. Just not brave enough to drop headliner yet. 

I added my 12V remote lead, and power cables. On these ford trucks, there are existing grommets in the far rear corners of the cab. I chose passenger rear corner and ran my cable alongside an existing harness attached to the frame. 

I did have to hit part of the aluminum under the cab with a 3/4 hole saw to accommodate the 0 Guage cable. You will notice an oval hole with another circlular one nested inside it. Thats the location of the 3/4 hole that was cut. I'm sure there are other ways, this is one i chose to keep it neat.

More progress coming tomorrow.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

More progress but unfortunately the upholstery shop has failed to deliver on his time frame with my sub box. One of those deals where 2 weeks turned into 4 weeks. Moving on..

Made good progress with the rest. 
Power cable through engine bay, installed illusion c6 tweeters and 30uf caps, carpet, console , and all trim panels. 

Really just the seats to go now and wire it up.

Also wanted to mention the brackets for the tweeters and door speakers come from CG audio design out of Jacksonville FL. They will cnc route adapters for these trucks to run standard speakers sizes.


----------



## TravisT (Mar 20, 2014)

unix_usr said:


> Disabling the processing will not turn off the amplifier/channel outputs - your rear speakers will just start getting full-range (they presently have crossovers for high-pass, and eq applied specifically towards the measured response of the factory speakers in oem install - if you change the speakers at all, even if never used an aftermarket amp - you should turn off the processing).
> 
> Using ForScan, you essentially set the EQ preset to zero - which is full/flat/no-x-overs - 727-02 is the as-built, setting the second byte to 00 will defeat this processing.
> 
> Time alignment is effectively turned off when you change listener position to "all" instead of driver/passenger/etc. If you're not using a processor after at all - there's little effect as it will just time align your mids on the front channels.


I’m in the mist of wiring up my Helix DSP and want to use my OBD via Forscan to send a flat EQ but I’m needing to know a few things as for as wiring goes. .... Going Into the DSP, which wires do I use to bypass Sony amp all together?? Do you have color codes before Sony amp?? 
My DSP in my 17’ Platinum 250 is mounted on the back wall by Sony amp with (2)-4 channel 1200watt amps and a mono 1200 watt for 2-10” JL w3’s Ported under rear seat.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

I believe both sony and non sony wiring diagrams are in the thread earlier. If you can't find them send a pm I'll email them to you. 

After making the forscan changes outlined on the excel file, the FR,LR,RR,RL that go from the ACM to Sony DSP will be variable low level. Input those to your new DSP and you should be good to go.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Got everything installed and complete except for the subs. Still waiting for the upholstery shop. 

The ms8 sounds incredible, needs some tweaking on midbass but will wait till I get the subs in too.


----------



## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

Sub'd.

I just bought a 2017 Explorer. Got sum lernin to do.


----------



## TravisT (Mar 20, 2014)

Isqrd_R said:


> I believe both sony and non sony wiring diagrams are in the thread earlier. If you can't find them send a pm I'll email them to you.
> 
> After making the forscan changes outlined on the excel file, the FR,LR,RR,RL that go from the ACM to Sony DSP will be variable low level. Input those to your new DSP and you should be good to go.


Awesome thank ya sir, this build I’ll be following closely. I sent you a pm as I don’t want to derail this thread. I just had a question regarding where to hook up my aftermarket amp outputs to Speakers, guessing the Sony amps outputs would be the only way...? Again, thanks for your help


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

Isqrd_R said:


> For my sony set up, it took the 4 ch in and the dsp created the center channel so nothing to disable for the center channel


I merely meant as something to test since you mentioned you were still missing phone ring audio. Without it disabled in Forscan it's possible that sound is going to your now null center. It's an easy test at least.

Come to think of it I rarely get phone calls and I can't even recall if mine rings or not.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

EvAnA said:


> Isqrd_R said:
> 
> 
> > For my sony set up, it took the 4 ch in and the dsp created the center channel so nothing to disable for the center channel
> ...


Oh yeah thsts a great idea. Sorry I over looked the details from your post. Sometimes I skim this on my phone at work and miss information. I will try to find info to disable the center channel.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Sub box upholstery is finally done!


----------



## german88 (Jun 18, 2015)

Isqrd_R said:


> Sub box upholstery is finally done!


Beautifully done! 

Getting ready to start my build this weekend. Very similar to yours except I'm starting with the 8" 7 speaker non Sony system. My Processing will be handled by a Zapco DSP Z8III. My amps showed up yesterday. ST-4X SQ, ST-850XM. Really impressed with Zapco quality so far. 

Sent you a PM regarding your tweeter mounting rings into stock A pillars. Need a set similar to yours...


----------



## Zoom_M5 (Oct 28, 2017)

Impressive! I really appreciate how nice your wiring looks. I had originally intended to run power alongside that for the 110V inverter, but there is no way to fit more than about 6 AWG wire there... this looks like a much better solution.

Q1: What loom did you use under the hood, looks OEM!

Q2: What did you do for grounds?

Q3: I'm a little surprised by the size of the caps in the tweeters, why so big and how did you mount them?


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Zoom_M5 said:


> Impressive! I really appreciate how nice your wiring looks. I had originally intended to run power alongside that for the 110V inverter, but there is no way to fit more than about 6 AWG wire there... this looks like a much better solution.
> 
> Q1: What loom did you use under the hood, looks OEM!
> 
> ...


Thank you for the feedback, I'm happy with it all except I'm going to have to start a new thread to get help with ms8 and sub/bass blends.

That 1/0 power cable is ran through 3/4" split wire loom all the way to the battery. The engine bay has additional PET wire loom over the top of the split loom. I taped the ends of the PET. The passenger side battery has a terminal with a threaded stud while the drivers side battery does not. That was a better side to rout up the truck and land the cable to the battery. There is a 170amp breaker secured with an existing bolt along the engine bay, had to angle the breaker down to clear the gas shocks for the hood. 

I used one of the large seat bolt studs that go through the aluminum body and into the steel frame. Hit it with a wire wheel to get good continuity, replace original nut, add flat washer, ground cable with lug, and additional nut and washer over the lug. It measures .05ohm to the factory sony dsp ground so it's a good ground. 

The capacitors are 30uf which is what illusion recommend for active setup without the supplied crossovers. I think it's physical size is larger because it's a polypropylene cap vs dielectric. The polypropylene I've read cannot dry up and change in capacitance value. Those came from parts express. I used a generous amount of hot glue to secure them to the trim peices. It feels secure enough and there was plenty of room for them..

Definitely not the only way to do it but it worked out well. Hope yours goes well.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

The subs..

Audiomobile evo 10 4 ohm dvc. 

2 of those and 2 passive radiators. 

I built the box to about .54cf per side. The sub and passive radiator are made for .5-.6cf. 

I added about 1/4 lb of poly per side b4 listening. All poly is above the radiators only and glued to the walls of the enclosure with 3m spray adhesive . It seemed packed in there pretty good. Could that hurt my bass? , I was under the impression it would improve low end response but seems to suffer there the most. 

I'm thinking it's am ms8 tuning issue


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Ok its nearly 1am here on the east cost and I do have to work tomorrow morning. I have been inside the truck listening to everything under the sun and just thrilled with the stereo after i got a good tune on the ms8. 

I have listened to a little bit of everything and feel like I've been to live edm, country, metallica, and jazz shows all in about an hour. I've reached a point with this were i can identify tracks with good or poor recording due to the fidelity i have now.

Thanks to everyone who helped and contributed knowledge to this project. It's been fun now I'd love to keep listening but i better go to sleep!!


----------



## cgm246 (Jun 27, 2011)

look into this...
Metra Online

and 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbwPR5PMBPg&t=328s


----------



## kanadian-kaos (Sep 12, 2010)

Smart man with the capacitors on the tweeters. I am using some 20mfd on mine in an active set up... ya they are large, same as yours from parts express except different capacitance. They provide me with a 6db slope at 2000hz in case something ever goes wrong with my active crossover which will be a 24db slope at 2250-2500hz.


----------



## HDF250 (Jan 16, 2018)

Life has been really for me and just catching up on the thread. Congrats on your progress! Also, thanks for sharing all of your knowledge, schematics and tips. I still haven't sorted mine out, but I would like to copy your amp rack. I have 3 Zapco amps and thinking seriously about going active with a set of Stevens SA6CS-A 6.5" active component set and a shallow JL sub.


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

Thank you all for the feedback. 

I have just one more bit of useful info regarding this project and other ford trucks. 

I completed the 2 conductor re wire behind the dash later on. What that did was enable to hear the phone ring and text messages only. All other features worked with the forscan code changes. 

Another issue, the door chimes, collision alert and proximity alarms were very loud, too loud. The only way to change the volume is to lower the volume on your dsp or the amp gains and that's no good. 

One solution and this works for me, change code in the IPC module for the cluster speaker. It makes all the chimes and alarms go through a speaker somewhere in the dash that is completely separate from the audio system. 

It works great for me, your loose that feature that steers alerts toward speakers in that direction (rear speakers for rear collision ect ) but otherwise it's all good. Phone calls still come through the stereo system. If anyone is interested in what line and character specifically to change just ask. I found it on the excel file. Good luck with your builds!


----------



## Isqrd_R (Nov 19, 2017)

The code is for chime generator in the IPC module
720-01-01
XXXX-XXX0-XXXX
Change that last digit in 2nd set to 0
It is chine generator cluster only , cs disabled 

Mine stock was a 4..... chime generator audio single, cs disabled


----------



## HDF250 (Jan 16, 2018)

Isqrd_R said:


> The code is for chime generator in the IPC module
> 720-01-01
> XXXX-XXX0-XXXX
> Change that last digit in 2nd set to 0
> ...


Nice find! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## dowheelies (Jan 7, 2012)

Great thread and very nice install! I appreciate all the details you provided as I’m about to begin a very similar path. Darren at ADC is whittling up some mounts for me now, huge time saver!

Did you decide not to do the center channel? Did you get the midbass to your liking once the subs were installed?

Thanks, 

Eric


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

cgm246 said:


> look into this...
> Metra Online
> 
> and
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbwPR5PMBPg&t=328s



Need for 2018 F250 Platinum. Metra doesn't show it to be compatible?


----------



## dowheelies (Jan 7, 2012)

DPGstereo said:


> Need for 2018 F250 Platinum. Metra doesn't show it to be compatible?


Currently they do not show it doess but I found this guy that installed in a 2017 F150 w/Sony. They are the same as far as I know.

https://www.f150forum.com/f30/2015-w-sony-aftermarket-harness-410272/index2/ Post 15&16. No verification the amp can be removed though.

Eric


----------



## lv_v (Aug 24, 2005)

DPGstereo said:


> Need for 2018 F250 Platinum. Metra doesn't show it to be compatible?


If you have the 2018 B&O Sync3, it's not compatible. Only real solution that is out now is Nav-TV's ZEN A2B. Supposedly PAC is working on a competing unit, but no word on its release yet.

FYI the Zen A2B has a very thorough thread over on the F150 Forums where the CEO of the company is directly communicating and revising/updating the unit based on user feedback. It's expensive for what it is, but it's hard to beat that kind of support.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

_*B&O Sync3*_ is only offer in 2018 * F150*.
This is a *2018 F250 Sync3* with* Sony amp*. 
_*NavTv*_ said it's not compatible, only with _*B&O*_ version. Said *PAC* may have a compatible unit? 
I tried that rout with a high end system in a Ram. Ended up with less than satisfactory results. *PAC* said their system is good for adding basic amp, dsp and speakers. Not really SQ quality results. Exactly what I found with RAM project.

*Is the best option, reprograming factory headunit* for an non eq'd/ta RCA level signal into a dsp?
Like OP has done?




.


----------



## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

DPGstereo said:


> *Is the best option, reprograming factory headunit* for an non eq'd/ta RCA level signal into a dsp?
> Like OP has done?


If you have that option it's what I would do.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

Where can I purchase a Forscan that's comparable with 2018 Ford F250 with Sync3?
IOS version?


----------



## EvAnA (Aug 20, 2012)

DPGstereo said:


> Where can I purchase a Forscan that's comparable with 2018 Ford F250 with Sync3?
> IOS version?


You can see all the application platforms available on their website:
https://forscan.org/download.html


----------



## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

DPGstereo said:


> Where can I purchase a Forscan that's comparable with 2018 Ford F250 with Sync3?
> IOS version?


Forscan is a free program that works with most OBDII(1996 and newer) Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, and Mazda vehicles. You have to get an extended license to edit(also free but you need to request it and it's good for 60 or 90 days I forgot which) https://www.forscan.org

You will also need an adapter for OBDII to either USB or wifi/Bluetooth for your laptop to communicate with the vehicle. I have this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F0GVBWY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

LostnEye said:


> Forscan is a free program that works with most OBDII(1996 and newer) Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, and Mazda vehicles. You have to get an extended license to edit(also free but you need to request it and it's good for 60 or 90 days I forgot which) https://www.forscan.org
> 
> You will also need an adapter for OBDII to either USB or wifi/Bluetooth for your laptop to communicate with the vehicle. I have this one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F0GVBWY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1




Thank you.

Here we go....



.


----------



## taylorduo (May 20, 2021)

Hello all. This has bee a very helpful thread.

I have almost finished a sound system in my 2017 F250 (oem Sony system). I have completed the forscan changes, removed the Sony DSP, rewired and installed JL Audio vxi600/6 DSP/amp (4 inputs, LF, LR, RF & RR), Kicker sub amp and 2 - 12" Kicker subs (signal fed from new DSP), new JL Audio front and rear speakers and pillar tweeters, and left the center channel speaker disconnected. Everything looks and sounds great but I have one problem that I can not figure out. 

Anytime I touch the 8" screen to make a change (change radio station, go into settings, go to Nav, etc.) the normal SYNC beep (more of a bloop or blurp really) is extremely LOUD. The only this that I have not finished yet is the minor re-wire between the APIM and ACM. Could that be the reason that the touch screen beeps are SO LOUD? Is there a forscan setting that I have missed or need to try? Anybody else had and fixed this issue?


----------

