# Backwave Pad.



## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Hi, 

I'm just wondering if anyone is using backwave pads? I'm nearing completion of my install of CDT CL-62's and have some backwave pads but I've got an intrusion bar almost smack in the middle behind my driver and the pads won't fit behind it

Just wondering if anyone's faced the same problem and had a workaround? The bar is not right in the middle and I could mount the pad underneath the bar but it would not be centered with the driver. The only other thing I can think of is to cut about quarter of the pad off at the top and stick that part on top of the bar, this would allow the bigger part to be centered with the driver.

I would have a pic but I didn't have my phone handy and put the speaker back in the door. I can get one next time the speaker comes out though.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Those bars are always on the way. The pads don't make a significant difference anyway.

CLD over the bar would do. I did not put any on mine. In an door, an IB set up with under 100W and the outer door being over 5" apart, the wave would spread out way before it bounces, if your were using 200-300 W per door, it may be a concern and something is better than nothing for sure. 

If you really want to do it, cut it and go to a hardware store and get a Pipe insulation, the expensive ones that are like rubber type closed cell foam and glue it there.


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## SQ+SPL= (Jan 20, 2010)

I have only just started using back wave pads and use them on everything now ! The difference on my bass horns ( house hifi ) was very noticeable. Cut them up with a sharp knife stick 'em down. I use the biggest pad I can fit no matter the size of the driver.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

What's an IB set up? The CL-62's can do 190W RMS each side but I'm only feeding just over 100W each. I've got CLD behind the driver on the outer door skin and I could CLD the bar.

"If you really want to do it, cut it and go to a hardware store and get a Pipe insulation, the expensive ones that are like rubber type closed cell foam and glue it there."

Are you saying to cut some of the bar out from the door? It would no longer be an intrusion bar would it?

If I cut the top quarter of the pad off would that effect it's function? I'm guessing probably not? It wouldn't be fully circular anymore but the center of the pad would be centered with the driver.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

This shows where I would need to cut..


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

The thickest "back wave pads" I've seen are 1/4" thick. That means they are only working around 13,500hz and above. So no, not worth it in a door install.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Infinity Blox are more effective and more flexible installation-wise.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The thickest "back wave pads" I've seen are 1/4" thick. That means they are only working around 13,500hz and above. So no, not worth it in a door install.


If not doors where are they worth it? Isn't it still important to have something break the backwave in the doors?

What are Infinity Blox?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Kol12 said:


> What are Infinity Blox?


Acoustic tiles wrapped with a waterproof material that still allows air to pass through. You can contact them through FB. 

https://www.facebook.com/RD-Acoustics-1396039120662848/


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> If not doors where are they worth it?


On your dash and pillars, specially if your tweets are anywhere near the dash.

Stop thinking about the back wave and if that is preventing you from hearing the best sound you can. Forget about the dflex pads and all such material, unless it's like 3" thick. In this hobby you will come across many rabbit holes, you just have to know which ones are worth exploring and which are best avoided. 

Do you want to know what will really make a difference? Wanna try experimenting with your eq? It will get your mind off this topic.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The thickest "back wave pads" I've seen are 1/4" thick. That means they are only working around 13,500hz and above. So no, not worth it in a door install.


Exactly! The concept defies the laws of physics. Find a product that can show more than a very slight downward shift in the panel's resonant frequency from the added weight and I'll eat a bug. It's an appealing idea but needs magical thinking to get from tweeter to mid range.

The pipe insulation may be the best idea I've heard. Don't slit them and glue them parallel to the outer skin - cut them to the maximum length that will fit perpendicular to the outer skin. Use the narrowest diameter you can find and vary their lengths. Get the average length to 3-4 inches and you'll be pushing into the 1 kHz range. Still not the problem frequencies for door mounted mids, but might make a slight audible difference. In reality, the side impact beam and concave door skin will probably do more than anything you can add in that small space.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Acoustic tiles wrapped with a waterproof material that still allows air to pass through. You can contact them through FB.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/RD-Acoustics-1396039120662848/


Those things are what, an inch thick?

Still only good down to about 3300hz. Which a 6.5" speaker should be low passed before that.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

There used to be a brilliant scientist on this forum form New Zealand. Really miss his posts - they used to take me about a day each to understand. He was deeply involved in the physics of sound and the physiology of hearing. He characterized any product designed to influence the back wave from a speaker mounted in a car door as "criminal". 

"Useless" is a gentler way to go. It is safe to assume that even if you are somehow able to make a tiny change in what is happening inside the door, it will be the least significant thing you do to improve what you hear from those speakers. It is vastly more important to do everything possible to limit the leaking of sound from the back wave into the passenger compartment. When you've done that, the only possible remaining concern is reflected sound hitting the back of the cone, negatively influencing it's performance. It's hard to imagine a less important issue.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Attached some pictures and types of pipe insulation, different sizes are available.

To my surprise some are made of fiberglass wrapped in foil or aluminum, those may work better than the rubber foam ones for the purpose but not to leave there for many years since water and moisture could affect the fiberglass.

What I meant was if it does not wrap the pipe tight, a portion can be cut to fit the round shape of the bar. A good strong glue that can stand moisture and high temperatures will need to be used.


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## SQ+SPL= (Jan 20, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The thickest "back wave pads" I've seen are 1/4" thick. That means they are only working around 13,500hz and above. So no, not worth it in a door install.


Yeah right.. ever actually used them in a close driver/ back surface situation ?


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

SQ+SPL= said:


> Yeah right.. ever actually used them in a close driver/ back surface situation ?


Yes, right actually. They are useless in a door installation.


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## SQ+SPL= (Jan 20, 2010)

I see your point. We should be talking Kol12 out of putting speakers in the doors in the first place ! But if he were to build some mean as kicks and found that magnet close to the back wall...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ+SPL= said:


> Yeah right.. ever actually used them in a close driver/ back surface situation ?


these deflex pads things were explained to me by an acoustic engineer. they pretty much START working when the peaks/valleys of the pad are a 10th the size of the wavelength. they start becoming noticeable and useful at about quarter the size of the wavelength. with the second skin deflex pads for example, they have a peak thats about a half an inch, most likely a bit less. i would go measure right now but im lazy. in this case, at half an inch, it would mean they start technically working at about 2700HZ, and start working somewhat efficiently at about 6500HZ. pretty much useless


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## SQ+SPL= (Jan 20, 2010)

I am an Acoustic engineer. I suggest you do some experimenting. Lots of love.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Physics are physics. There is no magic. And yes I've tested them. NO difference on frequency response or decay.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Physics are physics. There is no magic. And yes I've tested them. NO difference on frequency response or decay.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

SQ+SPL= said:


> I am an Acoustic engineer. I suggest you do some experimenting. Lots of love.


Then please enlighten us about how they work. Please cite the physics or equations behind your explanations because everything I can find shows that tiny/thin d-flex style pads placed behind a woofer are useless at any frequency that woofer will play.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Do you want to know what will really make a difference? Wanna try experimenting with your eq? It will get your mind off this topic.


This is interesting and I was actually going to bring it up in separate thread?

I've got my CDT CL-62's installed but I'm not happy with the sound of them. I don't know what it is, to me it sounds like they have a lot of resonance or a echoey type of sound. The mid frequency's seem to over power the lows.

I'm not sure I'm setting my gains correctly either. I'm using an Eclipse XA2000. Basically the min gain is 8v and the max 0.2. That's not back to front is it?

My headunit has an output of 4.8v. I done the whole turn the HU volume up to max, set the gain until clipping etc but I'm still not sure this is finding the right spot..

If the sound I'm hearing is not caused by a gain mismatch then I'm guessing it's the EQ'ing that needs to be looked at but I'm not sure where to begin. Maybe you can help?

I don't have my tweeters operating yet as I'm still working out the best place and how to mount them.

I think these speakers have got the potential to sound very good but I can tell they need a lot of tweaking. These are quite expensive speakers and I'm not getting it yet.

I just hope I haven't gone wrong somewhere else in the install or damaged the speakers either!


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Lot's of opinions on the Backwave pads. If they are not very effective then what is and I do I need something behind my drivers or not?

My inner door skins are almost fully sealed but as in my post above I think there's a lot of resonance or something going on.

Here's some pics of my doors.


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## JordyG (Dec 1, 2012)

On your doors: More sound deadening! Don't know if the outer door panel is done, cover as much as possible (except for the water gutters in the bottom...). Then the panel you are looking at on the pictures, completely cover it and close the hole which is still open. Just leave enough room for the steel bars to function. And then use foam tape to prevent the steel bars and wiring to resonate / rattle. Your inner door panel: completely cover with sound deadening and use some foam mats for sound absortion.
Some of the build logs here have excellent examples to overcome challenges.


Backwave pads prevent standing waves slamming into the back of the conus of your midwoofer, reducing the distortion caused by that. Otherwise the conus will also be steered by backwaves and not only by the speakers motor. 

I know a few guys here in the Netherlands who use(d) the stuff (Dynaxorb, Focal Plaint Chant, Stp Crystal, etc) and are highly satisfied by it. When I did EMMA SQ competitions I made my own using 5mm pieces of sound deadening creating a ribbed surface. The lower mid frequencies and voices sounded cleaner and more restful. Especially at louder volumes. 
As there are so many factors in car audio influencing the sound experimenting is useful. I can imagine if your midwoofer angled or your door has a strong curve behind the speaker it is less useful.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

That's what I forgot to mention, in some music the speakers sound slightly distorted even though the amp isn't clipping. Could this be backwave caused?


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## JordyG (Dec 1, 2012)

Could be, yes.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

As already mentioned, seal the door completely, as that is likely causing most of your resonance issues. Keep the gains low for now and don't take the volume past 85% of max. Come back and revisit this later for now there are more pressing issues at hand. 

You are running w/o a tweeter because you can't figure out where and how to mount it? Well connect them and use double sided tape to try different spots. At least you'll get to hear sound that is complete, cause right now you're not hearing much above 4-5 Khz. It's going to sound lousy no matter what you do with gains or eq. Seal the open portion of the door and get the tweeter in, before you worry about he rest of the stuff.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm actually still working on the doors so the deadening is not finished. I've got a CLD that has a foam layer on top for absortion as you can see on the right door and I've also got some plain adhesive foam. The door will be covered more.

I've basically got a big square of CLD on the outer door skin behind the woofer. Does the outer skin really need anymore than that? That's a lot of weight!

It's quite a deep cavity between my woofer magnet and the outer door skin, does this effect backwave? Is it the more powerful a speaker the more chance of a backwave?
With a less powerful speaker does the backwave escape to the rest of the door cavity rather than rebounding?

Would the lack of CLD on my doors so far explain a very resonance sound to my speakers?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> As already mentioned, seal the door completely, as that is likely causing most of your resonance issues. Keep the gains low for now and don't take the volume past 85% of max. Come back and revisit this later for now there are more pressing issues at hand.
> 
> You are running w/o a tweeter because you can't figure out where and how to mount it? Well connect them and use double sided tape to try different spots. At least you'll get to hear sound that is complete, cause right now you're not hearing much above 4-5 Khz. It's going to sound lousy no matter what you do with gains or eq. Seal the open portion of the door and get the tweeter in, before you worry about he rest of the stuff.


I have actually temporarily connected one tweeter for a listen. Bare in mind I'm actually in the process of this install and have only just finished getting the right side speaker mounted. In the coming days I will connect the other tweeter temporarily and get more serious.

I seem to be getting a lot of high frequency's in my woofer, is this because my tweeters not connected?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

JordyG said:


> Backwave pads prevent standing waves slamming into the back of the conus of your midwoofer, reducing the distortion caused by that. Otherwise the conus will also be steered by backwaves and not only by the speakers motor.
> 
> I know a few guys here in the Netherlands who use(d) the stuff (Dynaxorb, Focal Plaint Chant, Stp Crystal, etc) and are highly satisfied by it. When I did EMMA SQ competitions I made my own using 5mm pieces of sound deadening creating a ribbed surface. The lower mid frequencies and voices sounded cleaner and more restful. Especially at louder volumes.
> As there are so many factors in car audio influencing the sound experimenting is useful. I can imagine if your midwoofer angled or your door has a strong curve behind the speaker it is less useful.


Please explain how this works. Physics says otherwise. And when I had a pair, measurements said otherwise.


Op, if someone gave me a pair of them for free, and the superglue to mount them, I wouldn't waste my time. That time would be better spent tweaking the tuning.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Please explain how this works. Physics says otherwise. And when I had a pair, measurements said otherwise.
> 
> 
> Op, if someone gave me a pair of them for free, and the superglue to mount them, I wouldn't waste my time. That time would be better spent tweaking the tuning.


Are you saying you don't need any sort of backwave diffuser at all?


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## JordyG (Dec 1, 2012)

I can't make it more clear than this image:









It worked out in my install and it worked out in others' installs. At least to my hearing and others'. As said, it's very well possible it doesn't improve the sound in some installs. 
I think 2 sheets will cost you around 30 to 40 dollars or so, so not a huge amount to give it a try and experiment with it. Especially when you put it in perspective of the total amount most people here spent on their gear.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

2 sheets of what?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

JordyG said:


> I can't make it more clear than this image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those pictures don't show how it works. That's because it can't actually work. As pointed out multiple times before, the sheets are too thin to work as they are advertised. At best, they start to work around 3000hz and are truly only useful above 6000hz.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

JordyG said:


> I can't make it more clear than this image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So wait, the proof is that someone drew those pictures using some software? Really? Well that and the statement that you heard a difference. Are you 100% sure this is not psychoacoustics at play?


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

JordyG said:


> I can't make it more clear than this image:














Sent from my mind using telekinesis


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)




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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

They are diffuser not absorbers.
Sound diffusers are designed to scatter or disperse sound, by using irregular hard surfaces to break up and scatter the sound waves.These devices reduce the intensity of sound by scattering it over an expanded area, rather than eliminating the sound reflections as an absorber would.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Mic, it still needs to be thicker to have any effect on the frequencies a speaker in the door should be playing. This is akin to making a subwoofer box sized to the golden ratio, to try to break up standing waves. It doesn't work, because the wavelengths are longer than the box is. The same thing applies here. The wavelengths played by a door speaker are significantly longer than what these diffusers are able to effect.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the effects people who are using these are noticing im betting are them actually somewhat fixing a resonance by adding the mass of these rubber pieces to panels, or just flat out psycho-acoustics


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Mic, it still needs to be thicker to have any effect on the frequencies a speaker in the door should be playing. This is akin to making a subwoofer box sized to the golden ratio, to try to break up standing waves. It doesn't work, because the wavelengths are longer than the box is. The same thing applies here. The wavelengths played by a door speaker are significantly longer than what these diffusers are able to effect.


I know they dont work well, I was just clarifying bc It seems some people still think its a sound absorber


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Ah ok. Yeah that needs to be put out there.


Op, are you using the passive crossover?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Then what does a normal home theater speaker or any other enclosed speaker other than a car door use for an absorber/diffuser?


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## SQLnovice (Jul 22, 2014)

I had an ex-coworker that could have used this in his pants.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

If you read here under Making a Driver Work Efficiently it explains positive and negative sound waves and how they cancel each other out and that it's mainly the lower frequency's that does this. 
speaker basics

I'm not sure this explains any backwave on to the speaker cone though..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I wish I knew what you meant novice.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kol12 said:


> Then what does a normal home theater speaker or any other enclosed speaker other than a car door use for an absorber/diffuser?


absorber is different than a diffuser. most use polyfill for an absorber


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

So what's the alternative for a car door? I want to start cranking my system but I don't want to damage the cones..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kol12 said:


> So what's the alternative for a car door? I want to start cranking my system but I don't want to damage the cones..


back waves will not damage cones. not even close.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


>


believe it or not.. this is exactly what i did


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## percy072 (Feb 13, 2014)

SQLnovice said:


> I had an ex-coworker that could have used this in his pants.


:laugh:...HA!

I put in those foam pads that come with the F.A.S.T rings kit...no noticeable difference.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm trying to set my amp gain with a multimeter but I'm not getting any reading, what am I doing wrong?

Playing 60Hz test tone, all speaker wires disconnected. I put my probes on the + and - of either the left or right channel right?

Multimeter is set to 200V AC


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> back waves will not damage cones. not even close.


But they mess the sound up right?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kol12 said:


> But they mess the sound up right?


you most likely have bigger issues than rear waves in a car door


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> I'm trying to set my amp gain with a multimeter but I'm not getting any reading, what am I doing wrong?
> 
> Playing 60Hz test tone, all speaker wires disconnected. I put my probes on the + and - of either the left or right channel right?
> 
> Multimeter is set to 200V AC


Nevermind, turns out my probes weren't touching well enough.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> you most likely have bigger issues than rear waves in a car door


Like?

Anyway I've got my gains set with the multi and the speakers are sounding pretty good. Tight responsive bass, I'm really not sure what EQ'ing would need to take place..

I'm still getting resonance in vocals and things but that's still probably my lack of CLD.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kol12 said:


> Like?
> 
> Anyway I've got my gains set with the multi and the speakers are sounding pretty good. Tight responsive bass, I'm really not sure what *EQ'ing* would need to take place..
> 
> I'm still getting resonance in vocals and things but that's still probably my *lack of CLD*.


like these two, and time alignment


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok, so where do I start with EQ'ing?

It's a shame that the gains I set are sort flushed down the toilet as soon as I'm on the road. I guess the workaround for this is buying a quieter car or majorly CLD'ng?

I mean they do still sound good on the road but the db's drop I think?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Shifting topic again. Is there a way to test my ground point resistance with my multimeter without having to run a lead from the battery?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

percy072 said:


> :laugh:...HA!
> 
> I put in those foam pads that come with the F.A.S.T rings kit...no noticeable difference.



I will say those made a dramatic difference in my car. Huge improvement just using one around the driver to help dampen the door card by pressure and keep pressure from going behind the card. I can vouch for them. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Can't seem to find those in New Zealand and you'd be surprised how hard it is to find sheets of foam to make them as well!


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## percy072 (Feb 13, 2014)

Babs said:


> I will say those made a dramatic difference in my car. Huge improvement just using one around the driver to help dampen the door card by pressure and keep pressure from going behind the card. I can vouch for them.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree the rings helped...but didn't notice any change after putting in the rear pad thing's


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

This thread is just, wow!! OP, you're letting your head wander in too many directions. In order of priority:

1. Empty your mind of all the current thoughts. 

2. Seal that open hole that is the cause of most of the resonance you're hearing.

3. Connect and mount both tweeters

4. Update wiring if required and go active, 50 watts per channel is good enough.

5. Can you TA? Learn to eq.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Sorry TA?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

What do you guy's do to combat the db loss on the road?


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## susedan (Aug 11, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> Sorry TA?



Time alignment




Kol12 said:


> What do you guy's do to combat the db loss on the road?



Sound deadening / isolation

Search for these topics here on the forum as they have been covered extensively.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Guy's I've got a battery drain with the key in the on position. I turn to the on position with the stereo going and then I get a electrical buzzing/grinding noise after 1 minute that seem's to be coming from under the hood near the firewall then it goes flat.

I can run the stereo in the acc position and not have a drain.

The on position is where the fans, dash lights etc come on.

How can I troubleshoot this?


PS - I don't think this is a parasitic draw as that's when everything is off right?


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

For my vehicle I was planning on melamine foam on the door card with a layer MLV on top. Butyl rope against anything that can rattle and ampere vibraflex on the inner and outer sheet metal and on larger flat door card spots where it may resonate.

Depending on what it looks like inside my door skin i was thinking about trying to fit a absorbant material between the metal itself. 

Fiberglass insulation is my first idea and cheapest, I'll have to wrap it in thin plastic bags to waterproof it. At 1 mil they should be acoustically transparent by the lower midrange I would think.

Second option was picking up some 3m thinsulate, It'd be easy to physically get into the door, even if I don't have a big opening to get it in there since it's a loose fill type of product.


Last option was the melamine foam that SDS sells. 

Any opinions? Trying to isolate sound inthe vehicle as much as possible, I will have pretty loud midranges in the doors and want to make it as good an acoustic environment as I can. Right now the doors are very loud from the outside, even with my stock mids.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

sqnut said:


> This thread is just, wow!! OP, you're letting your head wander in too many directions.



Happy new year! Happy Friday 1st . And happy new directions to this thread .


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Alrojoca said:


> Happy new year! Happy Friday 1st . And happy new directions to this thread .


Happy new year, this thread is a proper soap.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I can't find what the RMS power is of my TW-26 Tweeter. Do they usually run the same power as the woofers?

Does it matter what gauge wire I connect the tweeters with? They have a 20 gauge or so wire pre-attached. The rest of my wiring is 14 gauge. 

Because the pre-attached wires are so small what's the best way to join them? I'm guessing probably soldering them?


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

50 watts on a tweeter is a good starting point.

Biggest issue with doors is properly deadening and sealing them.

After you have done this, expect there to be some residual resonance somewhere in the locking mechanism so make it possible to back track into the door to try and tame that.
I am still not completely happy with my driver door even though I have spent a few trips back inside of it. I am using 8's so there is that.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Doesn't the crossover determine the output to the tweeter? 

Any tips on splicing the thin tweeter wires to a thicker gauge? I was thinking of using male and female spade terminals..

I've run out of the 14 gauge wire I had and the guy who sold it to me is probably still on holiday. I've got some 16 gauge wire I could use for the tweeters but I'm not 100% sure on the quality of it. Should I use it or stick with 14 gauge all round and wait to get more?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

When a component set advertises it's peak rms output does this include the tweeters? 

For example my CDT CL-62 are rated for 190W rms. Is this just for the woofers or does the tweeter consume some of this?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Is your car apart and you need it on Monday?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I make an effort to have the car usable at the end of each day..


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Try pulling down somewhere in the 300-500hz range if what you describe as the midrange overpowering the lows and making them sound too full is what you're battling.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok will try. Is a higher Q number a wider spread?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

What's the story with tweeter wire? Is there any rules on wire gauge for them?


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

sqnut said:


> So wait, the proof is that someone drew those pictures using some software? Really? Well that and the statement that you heard a difference. Are you 100% sure this is not psychoacoustics at play?


please do not confuse "placebo effect" with "psychoacoustics". Psychoacoustics is basically the branch or discipline of study that focuses on the perception of sound. The term "psychoacoustics" does not mean "to be fooled".


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Kol12 said:


> What's the story with tweeter wire? Is there any rules on wire gauge for them?



If you use 16awg you'll be fine. 


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I got my tweeters installed up on the dash today. It's very hard to tell but I think I'm getting some distortion or static type noise and it's also hard to tell whether it's coming from the woofer or the tweeters but it sound's more like the tweeters. What could possible causes of this?

Could it be that I'm paranoid and the sound I'm hearing is because the tweeters need breaking in? or maybe eq'ing?

The tweeters need fixing to the dash otherwise they roll around. I tried velcro today but the adhesive side of the velcro won't stick to the vinyl. Does anyone know what does stick to vinyl? I could glue them but would the vinyl be damaged if I needed to pull them off?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

rton20s said:


>


more and more posts make me do this daily. especially the tuning threads. LOL


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Wobbly tweeter..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

C'mon I'm just looking for help..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Guys, Is a twisted and taped tweeter wire join ok? I can't find anything around showing how people are joining their tweeter wires. 

It's quite difficult to get a tight wrap of electrical tape around the wires.. I'm not sure how well this join is working..


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Kol12 said:


> Guys, Is a twisted and taped tweeter wire join ok? I can't find anything around showing how people are joining their tweeter wires.
> 
> It's quite difficult to get a tight wrap of electrical tape around the wires.. I'm not sure how well this join is working..


I wouldn't do that. If you must join wires, I'd solder and heat shrink. I'd use butt joints that you crimp before using electrical tape, but they are also prone to problems over time.

Velcro does make a version with a PSA compatible with vinyl.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

jtaudioacc said:


> more and more posts make me do this daily. especially the tuning threads. LOL


What's wrong with tuning threads?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

The reason I had to join was because the tweeters had a small length of wire pre-attached. They are even thinner than the 16 gauge wire I've joined them to. 

I'm not sure a butt connector would work with the wires being different thicknesses? 

The pre-attached tweeter wire is honestly really thin. I suppose solder would be reliable. Do you basically do the same twist join then solder?

Is it uncommon for tweeters to come with pre-attached wire or something?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I think this



Kol12 said:


> Guys, Is a twisted and taped tweeter wire join ok? ......It's quite difficult to get a tight wrap of electrical tape around the wires.. I'm not sure how well this join is working..


is causing this



Kol12 said:


> I got my tweeters installed up on the dash today. It's very hard to tell but I think I'm getting some distortion or static type noise


And for this 



Kol12 said:


> The tweeters need fixing to the dash otherwise they roll around. I tried velcro today but the adhesive side of the velcro won't stick to the vinyl. Does anyone know what does stick to vinyl? I could glue them but would the vinyl be damaged if I needed to pull them off?


did you try double sided tape?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok, any reason why?

I haven't yet but will. Do you think double sided tape will stick to vinyl? I want them to fixed quite firmly..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Rudeboy said:


> I wouldn't do that. If you must join wires, I'd solder and heat shrink. I'd use butt joints that you crimp before using electrical tape, but they are also prone to problems over time.
> 
> Velcro does make a version with a PSA compatible with vinyl.



Yeah have just seen this. Need to see if it's around locally.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I had thought I could join my tweeter wires with these...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Those thin wires give you an idea of what the tweeters need. Joining then to thicker speaker wire won't hurt anything, but is overkill.

Look for double sided tape with acrylic adhesive. You'll want something with good heat tolerance for use on the dash.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Use the insulated type. Trim the smaller tweeter wire about an inch and fold it back 3 times to fit the 14-16 ga spade connectors. You can find insulated bullet connectors as well.


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> When a component set advertises it's peak rms output does this include the tweeters?
> 
> For example my CDT CL-62 are rated for 190W rms. Is this just for the woofers or does the tweeter consume some of this?


I didn't see anyone yet answer this, so I'll give it a shot. The key word in your question is "set"....as in.....component SET.

When looking at the tweeter alone, many times the power rating of a tweeter comes with a note on @ what freq/slope it needs to be filtered to achieve this power rating. 

I would think, that when looking at just the tweeter of your component set, 190w RMS rated power handling would apply to just the tweeter SO LONG AS you used the passive crossover that comes with it. (190w RMS does seem like a lot of power)

The broadband power rating of just about any dome tweeter is gonna be considerably less than 190w RMS.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Here's the spec page for my speakers. I don't think it mentions the tweeter power handling but does say something about a 24db crossover..

CDT Audio CL-62


So what your saying is usually the woofer and the tweeter are rated for the same rms power?

If you also check out the tweeter section on that page most of the tweeters are rated for 100-150W rms. For some reason the rating of my TW-26 isn't listed.


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> Here's the spec page for my speakers. I don't think it mentions the tweeter power handling but does say something about a 24db crossover..
> 
> CDT Audio CL-62
> 
> ...


aha......exactly, so I took a look at the specs, it says 190W RMS @ 100Hz HIGHPASS.......meaning, just as I was saying with a tweeter by its self, the power rating is meant to be a certain amount of power across a given bandwidth, NOT 190W RMS from 20Hz and up. In the case of this component set, it's 190W RMS from 100Hz and up.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Niick said:


> aha......exactly, so I took a look at the specs, it says 190W RMS @ 100Hz HIGHPASS.......meaning, just as I was saying with a tweeter by its self, the power rating is meant to be a certain amount of power across a given bandwidth, NOT 190W RMS from 20Hz and up. In the case of this component set, it's 190W RMS from 100Hz and up.


I'm still a bit confused. If my amp is outputting 120W rms per channel then the 120W is being distributed to the woofer and the tweeter with the tweeter taking as much power as it needs right? 

I don't understand the 190W rating. Does it mean 190W capability for the woofer and tweeter combined? 

I mean if the woofer alone handled 190W and the tweeter another 100W or so I would of brought a much more powerful amp right?

I'm surprised this isn't explained more clearly. I'm also confused as to some CDT tweeters having 100-150W ratings and being paired with high power woofers..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Guys, the distorted/hissing type noise in my tweeters I think I have worked out is some sort of interference with the radio or antenna as it's only happening while on radio.

I think I may have noticed this in the woofers as well before I had the tweeters hooked up but it's much more obvious in the tweeters.

Any possible causes on this? Something behind HU, wiring etc? Is this common?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I've remembered the harness adapter for my Head unit had a un-connected wire related to antenna and it is yellow I think. 

Is this the ANT BATT lead? What is the purpose of this? Could this be my problem? 

The harness also has a blue antenna lead but that is connected to the other end of the loom (not loose like the yellow lead)


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Found this:

"I would suggest recheck the wiring and in particular ensure that the ANT BATT lead is connected to Battery +ive, best point is via ACC this powers the roof aerial.
Check all grounds are connected.

In most cases people remove their Factory Head Unit and forget the ANT BATT connection which causes crap reception."


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

The Cl 6 speakers are 80w rms and those tweets are 10w rms. So the 190w rating is for the set not per side.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok, time out. I am assuming that you are very young and this is perhaps your first time at car audio. By the time you're my age, you would have gone through setup's in maybe 8-10 cars and what you learn here with this install, will make each subsequent one easier and quicker. We're ready to help you, but are you ready to learn?

Walk us through your signal and power path from your hu/battery to the speakers. This will take a bit of your time but take pics of everything. For the signal path, start at the rear end of your hu, pre outs, close up of harness and connections, connection at amps and the power run from battery to amps. Lets see the connections at the amps and the speaker terminals. You don't have to pull out stuff to show the runs just show the origin and termination. There's lots of good knowledge here to help you iron out any obvious issues and you'll learn how to do it right.

It doesn't make a difference how it sits, no one's going to pick on you for your install. Well, you might get the occasional comment, nothing that can't be ignored with a slightly thick skin. I won't make any smart alecky comments either . Let's work all the gremlins out of the setup first. Of course you can ignore all this and carry on thinking about a hundred different things at the same time.


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

My head was about to explode trying to read this thread. I will agree with sqnut in the fact you are likely very young and or this is you first foray into mobile electronics. I am just going to touch on a few things in this post.

Do not sit and listen to your radio with the key in the "ON" position with the car NOT running. It WILL drain your battery eventually. The ACC position at the key is what you want if the car is not running. The Buzz you hear is likely the IAC motor. The units on BMWs can be noisy but it could be many things. 

As for this "hiss" or whatever you are hearing. We are just throwing **** at the wall here. If you notice it more on radio then other inputs it could be as you mentioned failing to power up the factory antenna booster. It could also be the most over the air music is garbage. The tweeters will amplify this condition as it is more in their reproduction frequency. I do not think you have a ground loop as that will happen on any source and more with the car running.

As for overcoming the road and wind noise when driving. It is called the volume control, turn it up. This is one of the major shortcomings when dealing with mobile audio, the noise floor. There are many ways to attempt to lessen it but you will quickly reach the point of diminishing returns. The car itself could be causing much of the issue. You will never be able to fix it all or even get close.

That is enough for now.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Hi Guys, 

Yes, this is my first car audio install but I'm not to young, 31?

sqnut, I will attempt to get pics of the signal path..

I've come to realise that running the stereo in the ACC position doesn't affect the battery but as soon as I switch to the ON position the battery will drain in a matter of a minute or two. Is this rather quickly?

Will check the antenna booster lead today. Definitely only seems to be while on radio..


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

Sounds like you need a new battery. Even in the ON position it would take quite a while for the battery to drain. The ACC position just powers up the radio and NOT the rest of the electronics (ECU) (TCU) (ETAC) (etc.) in the car.

The buzzing you heard could have been the relays in the car aproaching their failure to latch voltage.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

BassnTruck said:


> Sounds like you need a new battery. Even in the ON position it would take quite a while for the battery to drain. The ACC position just powers up the radio and NOT the rest of the electronics (ECU) (TCU) (ETAC) (etc.) in the car.
> 
> The buzzing you heard could have been the relays in the car aproaching their failure to latch voltage.


Hmm my battery is only two years old.. I've only been having trouble since I installed my new speakers and amp. I'm not having any trouble running the stereo in the ACC position. 

There seems to be a massive drain happening within two minutes of being in the ON position.

That probably sounds right for the buzzing I heard, I had no idea..


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

Does your car run off a AAA? I do not recall you mentioning what kind of car you even have. Something is wrong.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok here are some pics of my signal flow. Sorry sqnut I didn't get in behind the HU today.

































Power wire run through grommet in the firewall to drivers side compartment.








Speaker wire run down the side off front seats under the kick panels. Speaker and power wire run on the opposite side.
Rca and amp turn on lead are run down the transmission tunnel.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

BassnTruck said:


> Does your car run off a AAA? I do not recall you mentioning what kind of car you even have. Something is wrong.


I think something is wrong to.

I have a 1999 Subaru Legacy B4 twin turbo...

I think something is wrong because I'm getting the battery drain in the ON position, hissing/distortion when on radio and possibly the speakers not sounding right overall. (not eq wise)


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

If the car is running do you still get these noise problems or is it just with the motor not running? It only does it on the radio and not a cd or usb input? Do you have a DMM you can use? You should not be listening to the radio with the car not running in the "ON" position anyway.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

BassnTruck said:


> If the car is running do you still get these noise problems or is it just with the motor not running? It only does it on the radio and not a cd or usb input? Do you have a DMM you can use? You should not be listening to the radio with the car not running in the "ON" position anyway.


I'm getting the noise interference with the engine on or off. I think it's intermittent too.

Yes, Cd seems to sound crisp and clear.

Ok, don't listen to radio in ON position but should it still be draining that fast in the ON position? Last time I checked I think it is still draining in the ON position even If I turn the radio off which doesn't seem good/right?

Yes, I have a DMM..


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

The battery will drain with it in the on position without the motor running. It should not take 2 minutes to drain it though. You can watch the voltage drop with you DMM. I still think you have a bad battery and or alternator. If you think it is intermittent you need to be able to figure out what makes it happen every time. Did you do a good wiring job behind the radio?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

BassnTruck said:


> The battery will drain with it in the on position without the motor running. It should not take 2 minutes to drain it though. You can watch the voltage drop with you DMM. I still think you have a bad battery and or alternator. If you think it is intermittent you need to be able to figure out what makes it happen every time. Did you do a good wiring job behind the radio?


Could the multiple drains and jumpstarts have damaged my battery? As I said before I could listen to the factory stereo in the ON position for quite a while.

Do you mean cable organization/separation? I didn't do any hand wiring except for the amp turn on lead. I have two harnesses connected to the HU. There is quite a bunch of other cables behind there as well.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Do you mean watch the voltage drop from the battery with the DMM? 

I tested the battery after it had drained and it was down to about 11V, not enough to start the car again.

How am I going to work out what is causing the intermittent hissing/distortion? Is it possible I need an antenna filter adapter? I didn't have this noise with the same HU connected to the factory speakers though so maybe that points to the addition of the new amp, speakers and wiring?


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

Draining a starting type lead acid battery kills the lifespan. Do it a few times and the battery will be toast. You killed the battery, replace it and then see what happens. If you still have issues then we can dig further into it. Stop listening to the radio in the on position unless the car is running.

I was referring to the wires that are plugged into the radio and how they were connected.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

BassnTruck said:


> Draining a starting type lead acid battery kills the lifespan. Do it a few times and the battery will be toast. You killed the battery, replace it and then see what happens. If you still have issues then we can dig further into it. Stop listening to the radio in the on position unless the car is running.
> 
> I was referring to the wires that are plugged into the radio and how they were connected.


Yes, plugged into the radio I have two adapter harnesses. One for my radio brand and one for my car make so no hand wiring was required except for splicing the amp turn on lead.

Maybe the antenna lead behind the radio needs moving around/away from something?

I hope the battery is not toast, it's only two years old and I cannot afford another one! Once it's jumped and recharged it has no trouble starting again unless I sit there in the ON position.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

BassnTruck said:


> .... Did you do a good wiring job behind the radio?


Maybe we should let the OP complete his pic trail without distracting him .


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

What does the signal flow look like so far?

I forgot to say that when the radio isn't making the intermittent hissing/distortion the rest of the radio sound generally sounds like #$% Like an underpowered/cutout/interference type sound.

But like I said on the other hand CD's seems to be sounding good.

Also I'm hearing a whirring sound down by the drivers door which sounds like my turbo when I accelerate. I did not hear this before installing my system.

It's like this noise is being picked up in the system right? But I'm not sure this particular noise is actually coming through the speakers.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Keep going, we're more interested in the origin and termination than the actual run. Also a pic of how you have ground everything.

[edit] Whenever you hear an issue the first thing you should do is try and trouble shoot it. I'm instinctive with tuning but learning about the actual install, wiring etc did not come naturally and I learned a lot from here and some by making mistakes. Mind you I've never blown anything. Anyway, for the noise you're hearing, I'd follow a process something like this:

1. Was it a one off event or does it occur every time I listen, or is it intermittent.

2. Is it from the speaker or the car? Turn off the radio, do you still hear it? If so, it's most likely the car, else its the stereo.

3. What are its characteristics? How does it sound, is it like a whine and does it increase / decrease with volume etc. Eg, if it changes pitch when you accelerate, you could have alternator whine due to faulty grounds or bad rca's.

4. Is it on one side only or both sides?

Once you get a basic grip on the issue you then start isolating if it's the hu/amp/rca/grounds/wiring etc etc.[edit]


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok, here are some pics showing my current ground point and another possible ground point right next to the amp. 

My current ground has been advised against by some and said to be ok by some.

Will report on further steps tomorrow.









Yes this is before I did sand the paint back on this seat bolt bracket.
















Floor pan = good ground?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OK, read the whole thing, man this thread topic really should have been something more like, 

"Please help me in general" because there's so much going on. 

My opinions related:

1. Don't worry about back pads and all that B.S., your basics aren't yet covered so simply put, you aren't "there" yet with the nuances and other snake-oil-esque type stuff in this industry/hobby. Let's just get the basics mastered and see how it sounds.

2. Is NO ONE else cringing with the passive crossover stuffed in the car door? I've always regretted doing that when I was younger and dumber, and now anytime I have a passive crossover I must use in a build, I always install it in the cabin where it can deal with less environmental and mechanical stress. 

3. More CLD tiles, block holes by any means necessary, maybe add MLV and CCF if you can and this will be world's better than most door car speaker installs you run across.

4. The ground location can be good, but you want bare metal to attach to so consider sanding/grinding/wire-wheeling away the paint before you connect to that ground point, or find one more suitable. Also make sure all powers and ground points like the one the battery uses, the battery terminals themselves, etc are 100% good, no weak or loose connections and think of the system as a CIRCUIT, not just a point.

5. Connection quality in order from best down: A-(proper solder and heatshrink) B-(proper crimp with a butt connector) C-(twist and tape *unacceptable*)

6. RCA's tied in a bundle = not really a big deal but make sure the bundle isn't sitting next to something generating a big magnetic field like a fuel pump or seat heater or something.

7. Sounds like your basics aren't yet under control or understood. We all start somewhere! My recommendation, read this until you know it so well that the pages are memorized, and then go over it one more time. www.bcae1.com


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

fourthmeal said:


> OK, read the whole thing, man this thread topic really should have been something more like,
> 
> "Please help me in general" because there's so much going on.
> 
> ...


My crossover location has recently been criticized but mainly for a moisture reason. Obviously my wires have all been cut to length now and if I moved it into the cabin it would have to be close to the front doors, maybe inside of the door card..

I have sanded the paint right back on the seat bracket I'm using for the ground..

My only twisted and taped wires are the tweeter wires. Why is this connection unacceptable?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Kol12 said:


> My only twisted and taped wires are the tweeter wires. Why is this connection unacceptable?


Because it isn't a question of if, but when it will fail. If you can't solder and heat shrink the connections, spend a few cents on some automotive grade, weatherproof crimp connectors as mentioned previously.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok guy's, 

I've determined what I think the source of my radio noise is and it's the car end antenna wire. Basically when I touch the wire and move it around it induces interference.

The HU antenna adapter that plugs into the car end seems ok.

I have no idea why the car end of the antenna wire is doing this. It can be moved to certain positions and will receive (almost?) perfect reception.

It's like it is creating interference by being moved against things or something? As soon as I think of securing the HU back in place the interference will come back so it need's to be fixed.

Is the wire bad?

Pics of behind HU up soon.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

You may want to put the crossovers in plastic bags, and seal them with tape if possible to keep moisture away from it, and always between the panel and inner door, if you have no other choice other than doors crossovers locations.

They will take abuse, every time the door is closed and banged, even if they are screwed properly, it's like if you drop them on the floor every time the door is closed, except they won't scratch. 

That's another reason, you don't want twisted and taped wires, after so many extra bumps and doors banging, the connection will fail, add moisture and it gets worse.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok, here are some behind the HU pics.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Guys, 

So the situation is that my headunit is locking on to a clear radio reception most of the time but is intermittently cutting out causing the noises I described. It seems to be caused directly by the antenna cable as far as I can tell as if I touch and move the cable I can induce the cutting out/interference.

To complicate things it is only cutting out intermittently as I touch or move the cable as well meaning sometimes I touch and move the cable and the signal remains clear.

If it is the antenna cable being the source of the problem what is the cables problem?
I'm at a loss..


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Armchair diagnosis is nearly impossible.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

fourthmeal said:


> Armchair diagnosis is nearly impossible.


Not even any ideas?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Got the last big hole sealed up today. Do I really need any more CDL?

Got a before pic here as well.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Notice a difference after sealing the door?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Hard to tell yet, more listening needed I think. Is it bass response that sealing helps with or sound loss as well?

The bass hits on the new panel I put on so I guess with just the plastic there that bass was lost?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Getting back to the backwave pad, am I going to be getting sound bouncing back on to my cone with just a layer of CDL behind it?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

What looks better for rca's out of these?

SNW Trade - Home - CHOSERL 2M Pro Audio Cable RCA Interconnect (#49)

RCA Interconnects | Abtec NZ Online Superstore


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I'll ship to N Zealand, and take PayPal, pm for a shipping quote 


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ew-stinger-hpm3-2-channel-rcas-12ft-long.html


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> I'll ship to N Zealand, and take PayPal, pm for a shipping quote
> 
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ew-stinger-hpm3-2-channel-rcas-12ft-long.html



12ft is probably to long. I'm only running from HU through trans tunnel to under drivers seat. 

I'm thinking more like 2 meters or 6ft?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Kol12 said:


> 12ft is probably to long. I'm only running from HU through trans tunnel to under drivers seat.
> 
> I'm thinking more like 2 meters or 6ft?


 it's never a straight run, and through the middle it has to be run under the carpet, and that's hard. Even that way 6 ft may not make it under the seat, 9 ft maybe for an under the front seat amp install. Usually the easier way is to run it to the front firewall then around to the right close to the firewall or kick panel under the carpet and under the plastic foot step panel cover.

And if too long it can be lopped around, placed under the carpet in the upper area where it will not look bulky or even be noticed.

You don't have get mine, but between 9 and 12ft will be much better, other diyma members here make custom length cables.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> it's never a straight run, and through the middle it has to be run under the carpet, and that's hard. Even that way 6 ft may not make it under the seat, 9 ft maybe for an under the front seat amp install. Usually the easier way is to run it to the front firewall then around to the right close to the firewall or kick panel under the carpet and under the plastic foot step panel cover.
> 
> And if too long it can be lopped around, placed under the carpet in the upper area where it will not look bulky or even be noticed.
> 
> You don't have get mine, but between 9 and 12ft will be much better, other diyma members here make custom length cables.


I'll think about it. Thanks. 

Does anyone know anything about Choserl cables?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Getting back to my battery for a moment, it's still draining in less than a minute when switched to the ON position accompanied by the buzzing noise under the hood.

Is it really possible I killed my battery with multiple drains like an earlier poster mentioned?

If it was killed then why do I have not have any trouble with it once it has been jump started?


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

More than likely once jump started you can take that battery out and toss it in the trash.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> More than likely once jump started you can take that battery out and toss it in the trash.



I take it you agree with the earlier comments?

So why exactly is the battery draining so soon in the ON position?

How would I know for sure it is even the battery? Once jumpstarted it's charging back up to about 12.6V...


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

If you are getting a reading of 12.6 at the battery terminals while the car is running, you are reading not only the battery, but what the alternator is outputing.

Take your battery to a parts store to have it replenished completely before your alternator fails from trying to constantly charge a near dead battery.

If, after you have replenished/replaced the battery, then would be the time to start troubleshooting your electrical. Proper troubleshooting involves curing known problems before proceeding, as all small problems may contribute to create a rather large one.

Battery situation fixed, and the drainage problem persists, try this:
After shutting the car off, meter your battery's voltage while you remove fuses from your stereo. If/when you notice the drop stop or the voltage rises, you have found your culprit. If you pull all the fuses from your stereo and it continues to drop, start pulling fuses from your car's fuse panel(s).

Once you find your potential problem. Replace all the other fuses, and check again. There may be a chance that there was more than one problem, and the symptoms didn't cease until all were removed. 
If in fact the problem does start again, concentrate on the fuses you just replaced, and start the process over again.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Or watch this


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

danssoslow said:


> If you are getting a reading of 12.6 at the battery terminals while the car is running, you are reading not only the battery, but what the alternator is outputing.
> 
> Take your battery to a parts store to have it replenished completely before your alternator fails from trying to constantly charge a near dead battery.
> 
> ...



No I am getting 12.6V with the engine off after the car has been jumped and run for a bit. I'm getting around 14 or so V with the car running.

If I switch to the ON position and the battery drains it drops to about 11V with the engine off which is not enough to start it again.

I have read a bit about parasitic drains and how to troubleshoot them which is similar to your instructions but isn't this to test for excessive drain in the OFF position rather than the ON position?

I will get my battery inspected when I get a chance.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> Or watch this


As above, doesn't the parasitic draw test for excessive drain in the OFF position rather than the ON?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

If the issue is only when the key is turned and the engine off and if the problem started after you installed the HU or the amp.

You could,

Remove the in line fuse for the amp positive wire near the battery

Turn off the HU.

And after the battery is charged and good try to see if you have the same issue.

The battery resting voltage after 8- 20 hours after charged or the car is used should read 12.2 to 12.6 volts, anything lower than 12 V indicates a parasitic charge issue or a bad battery.


If the car does not start at all after the battery is charged or jumped or only starts with a jump, obviously, it needs to be replaced.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> If the issue is only when the key is turned and the engine off and if the problem started after you installed the HU or the amp.
> 
> You could,
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I checked whether it was still draining with the amp unpowered and the HU turned off and it was but I should probably check again. 

I guess this would be pointing more towards a battery problem?

What sort of test does an auto technician do to determine battery health?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Right hand side door fully sealed today. Anyone got any bright ideas to finish sealing this hole up? (second pic)

Well my install is nearing an end and overall I'm quite satisfied with it. Being my first car audio install I think I've done quite well? Obviously there are some things which still need working on like the battery/drain issue and fine tuning etc but I think all of my hard work is starting to pay off.

The radio seems to be staying clear but the car hasn't been out for a while so I will need to see how it behaves then.

Is there anything that looks like I've missed in my install? I may still look at the pipe insulation as well.

As for the backwave pad I'm confused 

Just wondering how bigger part the HU plays in sound quality? I'm thinking of getting a Pioneer instead of my JVC..

Also is it possible to get those rubber boots for the speaker magnets? Are they like a water/moisture guard?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Are the speaker terminals behind my speakers susceptible to corrosion? Should I tape them?

Connected with spades.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Duh, I should of used insulated spades for the terminals! Too late now, probably not enough wire to snip the ends off for new ones.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Does it start without a jump or after a good charge at all? If does not, it's bad.

If it does. You can test the load.

Simply have the DMM probes on the battery and have someone start the engine, the voltage should not drop below 10- 10.5, for the fraction of time when the engine is started. Some say 9.6 V but if it is below 10.5 it's bad 


Heat shrink the terminals or put some boots on like these


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Alrojoca said:


> Does it start without a jump or after a good charge at all? If does not, it's bad.
> 
> If it does. You can test the load.
> 
> ...



Yes it start's on it's own after it's been jumped. 

With the engine running I'm getting over 14V..

Can those boots be put on after the terminal has been crimped?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Again, resting voltage after 8-12 hours? If drained , below 12 V you need to find the source of the draw before you buy a new battery or you will continue to have the same issues.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

BassnTruck said:


> My head was about to explode trying to read this thread. I will agree with sqnut in the fact you are likely very young and or this is you first foray into mobile electronics. I am just going to touch on a few things in this post.
> 
> Do not sit and listen to your radio with the key in the "ON" position with the car NOT running. It WILL drain your battery eventually. The ACC position at the key is what you want if the car is not running. The Buzz you hear is likely the IAC motor. The units on BMWs can be noisy but it could be many things.
> 
> ...


I agree with this on overcoming road noise. I took my car for a short out of town drive today. On my previous drive I was afraid I was losing db majorly, not sure where my volume sat on that occasion but today was different. With a good quality system it's obvious you don't need to be afraid to use volume. My sound remained crisp, clear and very audible. 

It's also seems obvious you need every bit of amp gain on the road to combat noise right?

I was listening to a cd but switched over to fm for a moment and the drop in volume was rather interesting, are radio station volumes quite low? It could of been the particular track I listened to I suppose.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I heat shrinked the speaker terminals today. I'm just hoping I've done a good job sealing the door from moisture. The underside of cdl is moisture proof right?

What about the rubber boots that go over the magnets, are they like a moisture barrier for the magnet?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Haven't seen any replies in a while, anyone still around?

Anyway I had my battery checked today and it's fine. It has a 530 cca rating and it is reading 400 cca.

So something is causing the excessive battery drain in the ON position.


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## TwistdInfinity (Jun 7, 2015)

The terminal on the other side of the kill switch is touching something and shorting out? Though that would blow a fuse I would have thought. 

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

TwistdInfinity said:


> The terminal on the other side of the kill switch is touching something and shorting out? Though that would blow a fuse I would have thought.
> 
> Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk


The kill switch? What's that? 

The last time I checked I'm pretty sure I was still getting the drain with the amp disconnected and the HU turned off which is real weird.

I should probably check again to make absolutely sure though.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

That battery is not anything most on here would have new, and operating at 75% by the test. 

The CL series CDT speakers are an entry level. I've already stated once they're not rated for the power you think they are. At 95 w per side at 120 hz high pass by their requirements. May as well simmer expectations.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> That battery is not anything most on here would have new, and operating at 75% by the test.
> 
> The CL series CDT speakers are an entry level. I've already stated once they're not rated for the power you think they are. At 95 w per side at 120 hz high pass by their requirements. May as well simmer expectations.


I'm not sure what you mean regarding the battery..

The CL may be their entry level but I believe they are very high quality for an entry level and it shows in the way they sound. I think they would probably be the equivalent of some brands top level speakers.

I think you may be right with them being 95w per side but this is mostly normal in car audio anyway..

Expectations? What expectations?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I've got a question regarding low end frequency's and road noise. Road noise is low frequency right? and consumes some of the speakers low frequency's right?

What techniques can be used to counter this? Can it be as simple as increasing the bass frequency's with the HU or bass boost on the amp? or can this alter the overall natural sound?


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