# Build Log V2 (06' Si)



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Seeing I'm venturing into more SQL over the on the fence deal I have been doing which can be seen in my previous build log:

06' Si DD SQ build - Realm of Excursion

I've been talking to @sbaumbaugh about helping me out learning the ropes with tuning and so far things have been great. We meet up this past Tuesday and he knows his stuff. The process might kill me but I will enjoy working with him and learning the ropes. Not only him but also members here as well.

I've got nothing against my Anarchy's but I'm going to take them out (for now) and try out some Dayton Audio RS180-4. Wanted to try these for a while so will see how they do in my car.

Was only able to meter my driver side Anarchy (no thanks to software issues and then all of a sudden my tweeter wouldn't work, software related) but overall the driver in my application does good up to 4k usable. Granted there are some dips, and peaks which could be a result of many things from what I was told. For example:

1) Leg
2) Plastics
3) Install

Not to much I can do as I really don't want to get crazy.


Here is the FR of the driver side mid only. Averaged 4 times each (L,R ear, nose) and then the average of the three different positions. When taken the mic was not stationary. Rotating in a circular motion being careful not to introduce noise and as close to ears/nose as possible. When you look at the graph bellow you may say that's really good. Keep in mind the increments are in 20db's so after 50hz it falls of quick and the dip right around 1k we figured right around 17 db down (iirc) from the peak. As far as if its actually that noticeable when listening to it. Well I can't really tell a lot. You can tell there is a lack there but its not detrimental to the overall sound.













Not the best by any means (purely a midbass driver 60-450ish in it's current application) but could be fairly successful with a decently matched tweeter and some time for proper install, possibly doing sealed in a properly matched box, etc... Do look to see the Anarchy again though. I'm going to grab some wideband speakers and do a custom A pillar build. Anarchy's as midbass and the wideband speakers on up... Before people toss in the towel and say this is going to fail, I'm going to use Audible Physics RAM3-A with ATs (Ambiance Transducers). Technically a 3-way setup but processor/amps only see 2-way.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I was able to grab some Dayton Audio RS180-4 and swapped them in place of the Anarchy's for now. 

Changed quite a few things as far as crossover points:

Now

Mids:

80-2Khz @ (36db/Oct)

Tweeters:

2K+ @ (48db/Oct)

All subject to change of course as the drivers burn in and I get some listening time on them. 200-1k range as far as audibly IMO has improved. Am excited to see what the FR is. 

I was a little concerned with going with a metal cone but so far it doesn't seem to bother me to much. Overall the driver is well built and there is no shortage of metal on the thing. Even the nose cone is metal. One negative tho is the tinsel lead. Very thin.

Parts express/Dayton Audio rate these at 35-8K Freq range but that has to be in the recommended .85 cu ft box and 60Wrms...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the anarchy is also an aluminum cone so idk why you would be worried about it


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> the anarchy is also an aluminum cone so idk why you would be worried about it


Seems more like plastic but I haven't really looked into if it was aluminum but sure is...


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Burning in the drivers for a week or two before I get going with tuning but the plan is, for this weekend, to clean up the rear wiring and look into fixing a ground loop issue I have between the HU and 360.3 along with continue painting trim, engine plastics, rotors, calipers, etc. Here is a pic of what I have done so far (products are VHT brand and Rustoleum Trim and bumper paint, VHT Clear coat used on engine bay plastics):










I've done the main section of my cowl. This weekend I will finish up the cowl trim and re-paint my wiper arms. What isn't shown in the pic is my ECU cover is now painted and sticker is removed, also painted my fuse box cover as well. In queue is my intake manifold, throttle body, Valve cover. Yes those will be removed as I want to give everything a good cleaning. Does it need it? No 

Also try and repair my bumper clips and see if I can get the bumper looking better then it is now. I've removed it so many times now it doesn't want to snap into place. I do want to eventually make this car into a show car so possibly replacing the entire bumper in the future? we will see...

I also snatched up a set of F.A.S.T rings from Sound Connection as I saw these on You Tube and liked the idea of the ring that goes around the speaker itself. I may or may not use the back portion (may or may not fit the cutout hole in my door). We will see.

Sound Connection 6 ½

Also I'm going to be grabbing some Ultra Touch Radiant Barrier to line my door card. I've got some CLD on the door card but will do a lot more and will place this on top of the CLD. I do get some rattles within the door (most cases its the wiring inside the door and door handle as well).

UltraTouch 48 in. x 24 ft. Radiant Barrier-30000-11424 at The Home Depot


So a lot of work still needing to be done to the car


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Slight update:

My laptop took a crap. Well the BIOS did (corrupt) resulting in the keyboard not functioning (both onboard and external USB). So needless to say I haven't had a opportunity to do anything tuning wise to the car. Recently my replacement Laptop came in (Toshiba Satellite S55 series) so I should be getting back into the grove of tuning.

I did do some deadening (more or less filling open space). I bought quite a bit of 3/8" Thermal padding and was able to squeeze 3/8" in the door (between door card and interior panel). Other then that I've just been cleaning wiring, etc... 

I have plans to either move my tweeters into the A pillar or if I get the AP drivers first get them molded into the pillars. Just need to find someone local who would be willing to do them.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

I wish someone would sit down with me and teach me how they tune.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

sirbOOm said:


> I wish someone would sit down with me and teach me how they tune.


Hanatsu and ErinH have a couple good tutorials on here...


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

As this thread progresses I hope to document every aspect of my experience with tuning my car. I want to shout out to sbaumbaugh (DIYMA member) who has graciously meet up with me and explained in detail and showed me what to do so far. I hope to be able to meet up with you again as this progresses.

Now I recently purchased and built a pair of Tritrix TL kit from Parts Express and I really love the way they sound (warm and natural, tweeter could be a little stronger but the midrange is strong, way I like it). So I decided to get an idea, and do some practicing with what I learned so far, what the freq response was and hope to mirror the response (general shape). Now what I am posting may have some issues and I hope to get these corrected by members here if there are such errors. 

Setup (small bed room):

Source unit:
Toshiba Laptop using on-board sound card. REW playing sweep.

Amp:
PPI900.4 (requires repair so freq response won't reflect 100% true result). I've tested other known good amps and there is a noticeable difference in the way things sound. The purpose of this test was more or so practice and remembering the steps needing to be done to get a quality FR graph.

Power supply:
Well over 1200W at 18V. Have it set for 15.2V @ 60A max (right around 912W max)

Mic:

USB Mic with custom cali file loaded into REW


Ok In REW I selected the Measure tab and set limits (20hz to 20kHz), Level (-10.0), Length (256k, default), Sweeps (4), total time of 23.8s

Now I was sitting on my bed (middle of drivers L/R), about 6 feet from speakers.

First I pointed mic forward in a semi big circular rotation (being careful not to make added noise) I started measuring.

I repeated this procedure two more times (set of 4 sweeps mic at left ear and set of 4 sweeps at right ear). Continuing the circular rotation.

Here are the results:










Please note that this shows a smoothing of 1/3. Later I switched to 1/24 to get ride of most of the mess you see here.


I then averaged the responses to get the single response to the right. Now you can see the 3-5k range really jumps and that is evident when listening but some EQ will bring that down to the general house curve I'm looking at doing.

Now in car will be slightly different as I will be able to separate each driver and I will be able to level match each driver over what I practiced with.




Also I've got a little update as to what I'm planning for my substage. I've decided to go IB so here on the 12th of July I and a friend will be going to Parts Express for the Midwest Audio Fest and I plan to grab Two 15" Dayton Audio Ultimax subs. My goal is ultimately SQL and IB will give me that. Also I have always want to be more of a ground pounder (ya IB isn't the best for this but I can get what I want out of it)


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

I finally got to have some time to do up the FR graphs of each driver (minus sub ATM). All EQ on HU and 360.3 set to flat and adjusted slope and HPF/LPF/BP to allow a solid look at the general response within each drivers spec range (give or take some).

Driver/Passenger Mid (RED=Driver, GREEN=Passenger)










Driver/Passenger Tweeter (GRAY=Driver, PURPLE=Passenger)










Both tweeters and Mids (colors the same)











I'm no expert so I can only look at this and say it looks (without EQ/Level adjustment) very good fairly flat and nothing to me jumps out with a major RED flag. 


So at this point I'm at the point of what I have learned so far. I know for a fact that with this data I am able to figure out Level matching the drivers and looking for a good crossover between the drivers. Currently completely stock other the EQ I have the drivers crossed:

Sub 80Hz
Mids 80Hz-2000Hz
Tweeters 2000hz+

The slopes I have set as fairly steep (but have no reason for where they are set so won't be mentioning them. 

Here is the .mdat file that has all my measurement data for ones who want to take a look in REW.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4wdat3ogrny7o1/Complete%20mearsurment%20data.mdat

Please let me know if the link above will not open. It should but if for some reason it doesn't let me know. 

Thanks


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok, these are all eq suggestions based on your mid + tweet response chart. You're running the tweeter on a pretty steep slope while your mid-bass seem to be running full range or on really shallow 6 db electronic slopes, which are not doing anything on the acoustic level. Could be that you're not running a sub right now and hence letting the midbass just roll off at the bottom end. Some basic issues that you can start with:

1. Put the mid-bass on steeper LP slopes ~24db/oct at 2khz. Notice how the mids are within 4-8db of the tweeter through a full octave above 2khz. That's too wide a range to have the two sets of drivers response so close to each other, specially in that range (2-4khz). You want the mid to be at least~20 db lower than the tweet about an octave above the xover point. So steeper slopes and use the eq on the mid bass to start cutting above 2khz. Make incremental cuts so that at 4khz you're cutting the max that the eq allows. Everything above 4khz cut to the max. You just added 12db to slope.

2. On The tweeter eq cut 1.6khz by 6-8db and taper cuts from 1.25 down to 600hz. at 600hz you should have cut the eq to the max. Also cut everything below 600 to the max. 

Just doing these two things should make your sound 'cleaner'. Try it and see what happens. On the response front these are some area you may want to look at.

1. Balance L/R at 160hz
2. Cut both drivers side at 200-250hz ~4 db
3. Cut L/R at 400hz ~4-5db
4. Bring passenger side up 500-800hz
5. Cut both sides 4-5db at 1.2khz and 1.6khz.
6. On your tweeters cut a couple of db at 3-4khz and 7-8khz.

Take a listen, how does it sound? Measure and lets see what we come up with. Can you add the sub as well in your next response curve?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Ok, these are all eq suggestions based on your mid + tweet response chart. You're running the tweeter on a pretty steep slope while your mid-bass seem to be running full range or on really shallow 6 db electronic slopes, which are not doing anything on the acoustic level. Could be that you're not running a sub right now and hence letting the midbass just roll off at the bottom end. Some basic issues that you can start with:
> 
> *well slopes were set to 24 db/oct in the 360.3. That was across the board. Im going to redo the measuring as I dont have the sub included and I believe I messed up the process. I had REW limit the mids which I should have had it go 20hz to 20k and have the 360.3cross around 8k for a better picture. Which is how I had it set but cut off at 4k (explains the abrupt end and no roll off). Basically what I did with.the tweeter as from 20hz to about 1k its just chatter
> 
> ...


Respose in bold. I had slope set at 24db/oct. Should I have had that set more set to 12 or even 6 (as shallow as the 360 will go)?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Unless you feel what I have is enough and I will fix things up when I get home and get the newest fr graph up. Cause technically there was no crossover point shown for the mid. I had both the crossover on the 360.3 set to 4k with a 24db/oct slope but had the rew program end at 4k so there wasnt a crossover shown at all... so what your saying is I take my general crossover of 2k (starting point until I find maybe a better point to cross at). And sweep full range and measure with rew? Or say im looking generally at 2k but will play to 4k (on the mids) crossed at 24db/oct yet let the rew program sweep a full range? Tweeters are fine as thats what I did. I believe I crossed at 2k but played full range with rew. Why you see the chatter from 1k ish down.

Must have been drunk so not sure why I did that.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Go Ahead, measure again with the sub and we will take it from there.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Kk. Will get to it later as neighbor is mowing.


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## Yawar538 (Aug 28, 2013)

A noob question. Is a USB mic necessary or the simple 3.5'' input ones also work? 
As far as I know those are mono.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is attempt 2 at this. Here is some general information 

Sub (6th order tuned 35hz low end 60-65hz high end): LPF @ 70hz with 24db/oct Slope
Mids: BP @ 70hz - 2000hz with 24db/oct Slope
Tweeter: HPF @ 2000hz + with 24db/oct Slope

I do get rattling in my headliner when I tested the sub. Will get that fixed but in many cases audible in the response (probably some of the peaks in the upper range). 

No EQ (Flat) and Balance set to center

Slope type: Butterworth (default on 360.3)

Set REW to sweep full range 20-20000hz

Here is the screenshot of all the drivers together:










Also as before here is the .mdata file for those who want to mess around a little:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n90ezvlryr6pyk9/Complete%20mearsurment%20data.mdat



SQNUT:

When you cut say above 4k (full down on DSP EQ options) at what Q should I do this:

Tweeter: Steep (say 1)
Mids: Not as steep (say 2.5)

The 360.3 has a adjustable Q from 0.1(Narrow) to 6(wide)

Only reason I ask is I've played with this before and one thing I noticed is that if its to wide of a Q you will pull down other freq you don't want to pull down:

Say I have 4k being absolute bottom on EQ slider and the Q is fairly wide/default I will pull down 2-3K a couple DBs even though I may not want to. Audible difference and sometimes not in a good way.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Give me a day I will get back on your revised response curves.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Alright here is what I have so far. If you take a look between this one and the last measurements you will notice a difference in SPL. As I said in the post above I had to re calibrate the 360.3 (its still buggy with windows 8) so the input signal at the amps increased resulting in the gains being wrong. I have them set by ear to a comfortable level. Here is the updated .mdat file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eww4eu0nf2hhu4k/Driver%20Passenger%20Side%20v1.mdat

Now here is how things are looking at this point and time:










That peak around 40-45hz I have plans to try and bring down slightly but I don't have many plans to touch the substage as its going to be changing here soon. Going IB with Two Ultimax 15's.

I've been talking with Shawn (sbaumbaugh) and what I am doing now is taking a measurement of each L/R side and taking my time looking for the major peaks and seeing about bring them down slowly in hopes to eventual get each side fairly matched to each other. I mean from the start till now I can tell slightly a difference in sound. Sounds like the drivers are actually playing on the same level. I still have issues with a few freq pulling left/right but will take my time working them out.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Leave the peak at 40-45 alone. It's an insignificant issue. 

Every time I tune a setup, I set the timing before I play with the eq because having your drivers out of phase messes up your response in ways that sometimes can't be cured with the eq. I think your mids and tweets may be out of phase which is why you have that deep null around the xover point of 2khz. You may want to check that as a first step.

Once you have done that, try these eq adjustments that should improve your imaging sound won't jump around, less smearing. It should also help with overall tonality, perhaps a better sense of balance. Save your current settings as A then make the changes and save that as B. Now go back and forth between A & B and pick what all is different and if it is better or worse. Spend 20-30 mins a day just doing this. 

Next look at the changes that you made. If you cut a frequency by 2 db raise it back by 2db and hear which part of the sound it affects. By doing all this you are training your ears to pick the difference and qualify each change as better or worse. It's a hit or miss thing to start with but stick with it, things will start to fall in place. 

This will also teach you to use the eq in terms of knowing which frequency affects what part of the sound. Above all be patient, this takes time. Keep measuring as you make the changes so that you have a visual reference to what's changing. But the central theme for sure is to get your ears to *reliably* tell you better or worse. 

I'll suggest some changes everyday based on your curve and feedback. Does that sound workable? Ok Here are the eq suggestions by driver type. 

*EQ ON SUB:* Start the incremental cuts from 100hz up at a q of 1.5 and by 200 you should be maxing out the cuts. Everything above 200hz cut to the max on Q=1.5. 

You have about a 20db roll off from 45 to 80. You can try turning the gains down on the sub amp. May help with the rattling issues as well. It looks like you're running a ported box. Something you may want to consider down the line is to make a slightly larger box so that the peak at ~50 moves towards 30ish. You can model the sub in various programs to get the correct box and port size.

*MID BASS EQ:* 

1. Cut L&R at 80hz by 3db on Q=1

2. Cut R (passenger side) at 125 and 160hz -3db Q=1

3. Cut L&R at 250hz - 2db at Q = 2

4. Cut L (driver side) at 800 -2db Raise R side by 1.5 db both on Q=1

5. Cut L at 1.25 -4db Cut R -1 db both on Q = 0.75

6. Raise L at 1.6khz by 1db at Q = 1

7. Cut L 2.5khz -3db and R by - 5 db both on Q = 1

beyond 2.5khz cut in equal increments till you max out yourr cuts by~5khz beyond that everything is cut to the max all on Q = 1

*EQ On Tweeters* 

1. Cut 2.5khz L -2db and R -4db Q=1

2. Cut 4khz L -2db and R -4db all on Q = 4

Do the staggered cut routine staring at 1.6khz and max out the cuts by 800hz everything below that cut to max. 

That's it for now. To recap, check the TA between mids and tweets. When they are in phase that deep null should vanish. Save that as setting A, then make the suggested settings as B and do the A/B routine thing. Measure after making the changes to see what all has changed. Post your feedback and we can continue.

Good Luck!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Leave the peak at 40-45 alone. It's an insignificant issue.
> 
> Every time I tune a setup, I set the timing before I play with the eq because having your drivers out of phase messes up your response in ways that sometimes can't be cured with the eq. I think your mids and tweets may be out of phase which is why you have that deep null around the xover point of 2khz. You may want to check that as a first step.
> 
> ...


Ya I'm running a single 12 in a 6th order bandpass tuned 35hz on the low end and 65 on the high end. But I won't be running with this sub stage for long as I'm going ib with 2 Dayton audio Ultima 15s. Actual the rattle is more or less car related as I have isolated where it is (Headliner) as I can usually hear it even if the subs basically off. Crappy plastics. I have plans to remedy this issue. Also about doing ta first. I was under the assumption that doing it first and the playing with equal to level matcheck frequently can skew the ta results? Basically. Causing you to have to later on further adjust it. That's why at this point in time I'm just trying to level out the l/r side driver response so they closely reflect each other within say 3rd or so. Then ta/equipment manipulations to center up the staging ect... basically rely less on ta to fix the overall staging in of the frequency and use it more as a refining tool. I mean there really isn't a set way to do this but just wanted to get your opinion on why ta first and foremost over level match then work ta/left right manipulation to achieve a solid center image and stage. Then ge. Then eq to refine the sound even more. 

Don't get me wrong I agree with you on the phase issue as its audible at times. Presents itself as a dull weak sound between the drivers.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

A lot of people will do L/R eq before TA. Thing is with drivers out of phase, if you're doing L/R balance you may run into issues specially around the xover point. At these frequencies you'll struggle to balance L/R even with the eq, either because the difference is too large or the issue is just not responding to eq. Now if you do the TA the same frequencies withh be closer matched and more eq friendly BUT by TA you've changed the L/R response within an octave above and below the xover point. So now you need to eq L/R again.

If all you took from my post was the sub stage and the sequence, then I just wasted 2 hours last night. If you're going to run everything I suggest through the filter of what you know / have read / been told, before implementing anything then this tutorial will take ten years.

It's going to take 15 mts to implement what I suggested. Do the A/B somethings will work some won't. I'm trying to tune your car looking at your response curves. That's crazy enough as it is!! I'm just trying to get you to a point where you can swim on your own.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> A lot of people will do L/R eq before TA. Thing is with drivers out of phase, if you're doing L/R balance you may run into issues specially around the xover point. At these frequencies you'll struggle to balance L/R even with the eq, either because the difference is too large or the issue is just not responding to eq. Now if you do the TA the same frequencies withh be closer matched and more eq friendly BUT by TA you've changed the L/R response within an octave above and below the xover point. So now you need to eq L/R again.
> 
> If all you took from my post was the sub stage and the sequence, then I just wasted 2 hours last night. If you're going to run everything I suggest through the filter of what you know / have read / been told, before implementing anything then this tutorial will take ten years.
> 
> It's going to take 15 mts to implement what I suggested. Do the A/B somethings will work some won't. I'm trying to tune your car looking at your response curves. That's crazy enough as it is!! I'm just trying to get you to a point where you can swim on your own.


Don't get me wrong. I've got a lot to learn and I apologize if my post was worded in a way that made you think I wasn't taking your advice. Or concered more for my substage as i was making a point of what i was running so you had a idea what it was and the fact its changing at some point here. 

I could be remembering what I was told when Shawn and I talked (it was a lot of information to process at one time) completely wrong as circumstances with my 360.3 and computer didn't allow for a proper starting point. I'm just trying to understand things as they are presented. 

With that said I will redo what little I have done now and get TA figured out first and for most and do as you suggest. Once again I'm sorry and appreciate the help so far.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

No problems, the idea is to keep you focused. Now that I re-look look at my post I've touched upon way too many things at the same time. Not the best way to keep someone focused. Sorry, that's my bad. Let's take it one step at a time. Save your current settings as A.

With you in the drivers seat, have someone measure the distance from your left ear to left tweet and right ear to right tweet. Similarly for the mids now input this on the 360.3 and then measure the response again. Does the deep dip at 2khz improve? Lets start from here.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> No problems, the idea is to keep you focused. Now that I re-look look at my post I've touched upon way too many things at the same time. Not the best way to keep someone focused. Sorry, that's my bad. Let's take it one step at a time. Save your current settings as A.
> 
> With you in the drivers seat, have someone measure the distance from your left ear to left tweet and right ear to right tweet. Similarly for the mids now input this on the 360.3 and then measure the response again. Does the deep dip at 2khz improve? Lets start from here.


The key is to find someone lol. I thought about using a string and measuring that way. Should yield same results. With less the struggle.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Sure that will work too. Just make sure it's not a stretchy string .


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Sure that will work too. Just make sure it's not a stretchy string .


Lol. Na just some nice nylon string.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> That peak around 40-45hz I have plans to try and bring down slightly but I don't have many plans to touch the substage as its going to be changing here soon. Going IB with Two Ultimax 15's.



I'm having to view the picture from my phone so bear with me, but here are my thoughts.

1) Your scale is 20dB. That's huge. It makes some of the smaller issues less important. Set your scale to 10dB so you can actually see what's going on better. 
2) That peak at 40-45 hz may very well be the cabin resonance. I know this car like the back of my hand and can tell you that 43hz is a bear. I can't say for sure this is the case in your car because it drops at your Fb (port tuning frequency). I would investigate it, though.
3) Your sub level looks hot compared with the rest of the frequency spectrum. At 200hz you're at about 80dB; at 40hz you're at 120dB. Most people have a swing of about 20/30dB whereas you've got a 40dB swing. I'd consider dropping that by 10dB.

I won't comment on the rest of the response below 300hz because you need a good set of ears to help you with that. The modal issues in the car and solely relying on the RTA will often get you in more trouble. 

4) The 1-1.5khz area needs cutting. Set a Q of about 2 and drop the left side about 5dB (play around with this) and do the same for the passenger side. I also agree that your tweeters may be out of phase. The deep null there is only exacerbated by the 1-1.5khz peaking (typical in this car with your install). If the tweeters are really out of phase at the crossover you'd see a drop of about 6dB at the crossover point. You see more than that, however, it's likely because of the bump at 1-1.5khz.


Do that, stop there, then re-measure with a spatial average. Provide the following:
1) 1/12, 1/3, and 1 octave resolution for left and right. This will help you determine the difference between real problem areas you can fix (or that really need to be fixed) and those that can't.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Trust a tweaker to look at a chart and think of 10 things in his head to address all at the same time. That's how I did it too.

I raised pretty much the same exact issues in my earlier post and confused the hell out of the OP. So we are starting from scratch by doing the TA on drivers. That deep null around the xover point of 2khz is a likely sign that mids and tweets are out of phase. I agree 20 db is too big a scale, I kinda took that into consideration when suggesting the cuts. Basically what appears like a 8db swing between L/R at 20db will in all probability be 3-4db, which is what I used.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Trust a tweaker to look at a chart and think of 10 things in his head to address all at the same time. That's how I did it too.
> 
> I raised pretty much the same exact issues in my earlier post and confused the hell out of the OP. So we are starting from scratch by doing the TA on drivers.


I saw that. At best, the TA will address the *potential* null at the crossover points but the other issues are still valid and common in this car/install. 

Also, don't look at the null as the only potential issue. It's possible it's not a null; just an area brought more to light by the peak next to it and a level matching thing. Simple to tell, though; just swap the polarity of the tweeters. If the output at the crossover increases he was out of phase and is now in phase. In time, you're only talking about ~0.10ms being the difference in 180 degrees. That's about 3 clicks on most DSPs...

Hard to tell by graphs only. 


OP, for time alignment, if you can't enter the distance in directly (in inches) and can only do so with milliseconds, you can use my site to provide you with the numbers you need, found in my signature.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

ErinH said:


> Hard to tell by graphs only.


And yet, here we are tuning off the graphs . Gotta love this addiction.



ErinH said:


> I saw that. At best, the TA will address the *potential* null at the crossover points but the other issues are still valid and common in this car/install.


Sure the other things are important that's why I was up late writing that silly thesis and thinking 'there, now I've addressed what's visible and whats likely'. I focus on TA first because it's just less work that way.



ErinH said:


> In time, you're only talking about ~0.10ms being the difference in 180 degrees. That's about 3 clicks on most DSPs...


Yep it's amazing what a few clicks can do. In my car with the xover at 3khz, I couldn't get 2khz to centre with the other frequencies. No matter what I did on the eq it always smeared to the driver side. One day out of sheer frustration I added 0.02ms delay to driver side mid and tweet and like magic the damn thing centred beautifully. That 0.02 ms delay was inaudible at the lower end, problem solved.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

ErinH said:


> I saw that. At best, the TA will address the *potential* null at the crossover points but the other issues are still valid and common in this car/install.
> 
> Also, don't look at the null as the only potential issue. It's possible it's not a null; just an area brought more to light by the peak next to it and a level matching thing. Simple to tell, though; just swap the polarity of the tweeters. If the output at the crossover increases he was out of phase and is now in phase. In time, you're only talking about ~0.10ms being the difference in 180 degrees. That's about 3 clicks on most DSPs...
> 
> ...


Thanks ErinH. I definitely used your site. Had to adjust gains so here is the clean slate with NO TA, EQ Flat, LR balance center.

No TA Starting point:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lv3t9lnd43l8hd8/No%20TA.mdat

With TA:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwg09575vjxea7q/With%20TA.mdat

Both TA and No TA for comparison:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rp78a1wlxy9w695/No%20TA%20and%20TA.mdat

1/12 smoothing:










1/3 smoothing:










1/1 smoothing:











To answer your question sqnut:

Does the deep dip at 2khz improve?

Doesn't seems so. Biggest change was outside that 2khz range though. Especially tweeter


It won't be hard to tame the sub down. I usually have a couple notches down on the sub level on the 360.3 remote. Room for some oomph when I want it but can and do tame it down for daily. I'm off to bed. I'm whooped


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

flip the polarity of the tweeters and re-measure. provide both results (0/180) for both sides.


edit: these are averages, correct? I'm only seeing a single measurement for each side; I'm assuming you're doing a spatial average in the RTA menu? If not.... do that. Don't bother doing single point measurements. 

Also, can you show the final install location of your drivers. I thought I knew where they were but now I'm not so sure. Pictures or a description will be fine. Just give specifics.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Not sure what tweeter you're running or where they are located like Erin mentioned, but for most 0.75-1" tweets 2khz is a low xover point, specially if they are dash / low pillar mounted with hard plastic and glass all around. My tweeters are mounted in pods on a bare bone hard plastic dash. If I cross them at 2khz I get a really peaky response which I can't cure 100% with thew eq. If you want to cross low it helps if you have a nice dash mat or one of those softer dashes. Raising your xover point may help in somewhat alleviating that peaky response.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

ErinH said:


> flip the polarity of the tweeters and re-measure. provide both results (0/180) for both sides.
> 
> 
> edit: these are averages, correct? I'm only seeing a single measurement for each side; I'm assuming you're doing a spatial average in the RTA menu? If not.... do that. Don't bother doing single point measurements.
> ...



Yes I measure the L ear (4 sweeps which average), R ear (4 sweeps which average), and then nose (mic pointing up 4 sweeps which average). Then average the averages to get overall driver.

The mdat files should include all the measurements for no ta, ta, and then both ta and no ta (this one should only have 2-3 measurements in it). What I have pictured above does have 4 (both ta and not L/R side) measurements on it

My mids are located in the stock location in the doors. My tweeters are in the kick panels (I know the issues with this, just where they are). Having Mark TREOSOLS build me custom A pillars to house some AP RAM3a with the ambiance transducers.



sqnut said:


> Not sure what tweeter you're running or where they are located like Erin mentioned, but for most 0.75-1" tweets 2khz is a low xover point, specially if they are dash / low pillar mounted with hard plastic and glass all around. My tweeters are mounted in pods on a bare bone hard plastic dash. If I cross them at 2khz I get a really peaky response which I can't cure 100% with thew eq. If you want to cross low it helps if you have a nice dash mat or one of those softer dashes. Raising your xover point may help in somewhat alleviating that peaky response.


Image Dynamics XS28


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

ErinH said:


> I know this car like the back of my hand


Question for Erin...does it matter that the OP has a FG2 (8th SI coupe)? Not saying it does or does not matter, just wondering what your thoughts are given some slight differences given the different body styles...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Coupe.... I actually didn't even catch that. It depends on the install, really.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

ErinH said:


> Coupe.... I actually didn't even catch that. It depends on the install, really.


I agree the install will definitely be key. Just thinking more about room modes...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The cabin is smaller and IIRC the dash isn't as deep (correct me if I'm wrong) so that will play in to it.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

ErinH said:


> The cabin is smaller and IIRC the dash isn't as deep (correct me if I'm wrong) so that will play in to it.


We'll have to let the OP correct either of us wrt the dash since you and I have the FA5/FA1. 

I just know the coupe doesn't have those side windows, so pillar install with a moderate sized mid is not going to be as easy. I know when I bought mine, I never even considered the coupe...but not because of the audio. Car seats were a factor. 

Sorry OP for the slight derail. I think the tweets being low in the kicks in the 8th gen cabin (regardless of coupe or sedan IMHO) presents a certain number of challenges. The center stack with the gear shift is all hard plastic, and presents a fair obstruction to both the mids and the tweeters being low...at least IME especially when I had the tweets also flush into the kicks. My setup in that config lasted less than a month FWIW. I fully appreciate the work though, as definitely experimenting is the best way to learn. I just know that experiment didn't last long, at least for me.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

papasin said:


> We'll have to let the OP correct either of us wrt the dash since you and I have the FA5/FA1.
> 
> I just know the coupe doesn't have those side windows, so pillar install with a moderate sized mid is not going to be as easy. I know when I bought mine, I never even considered the coupe...but not because of the audio. Car seats were a factor.
> 
> Sorry OP for the slight derail. I think the tweets being low in the kicks in the 8th gen cabin (regardless of coupe or sedan IMHO) presents a certain number of challenges. The center stack with the gear shift is all hard plastic, and presents a fair obstruction to both the mids and the tweeters being low...at least IME especially when I had the tweets also flush into the kicks. My setup in that config lasted less than a month FWIW. I fully appreciate the work though, as definitely experimenting is the best way to learn. I just know that experiment didn't last long, at least for me.


Well I've never been in a sedan so I can't say for sure which dash is deeper/longer. Well that's a lie I did test drive a sedan (1.8L) for about 5 min. To me its deep but to say for sure I can't.

Hence why I'm swapping out drivers and changing locations 

Right now I'm more concerned with gaining the knowledge which I can then use to tune my much improved setup. Which placement of drivers/location are more of a concern. That needs to be kept in mind as this setup isn't going to be the final setup so placement wasn't a issue to me at that point and time. Learning with this setup for what to look for, why certain things happen, how things are done, etc...


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Beckerson1 said:


> Hence why I'm swapping out drivers and changing locations
> 
> Right now I'm more concerned with gaining the knowledge which I can then use to tune my much improved setup.


Both these reasons go hand in hand, and am really glad (and excited) for you that you realize these things. I don't know of too many that will disagree that install and tuning are the most important parts, and having the knowledge (and execution) of both is very helpful, but always a work in progress...at least for me. 

I'm gonna bow out and let the OP, sqnut, and Erin continue their remote tuning tutorial/session(s). Carry on fellas. Most interesting!  :thumbsup:


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

NP Richard

ErinH:

I will get the (0/180) tomorrow after I get home from work. It will be interesting to actually see the difference between those two. I've read about the effects that switching the phase can and can't have. So will be interesting to see


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm with Richard on tweets in kicks. I have always struggled to tune cars with tweeters down low. Major response issues specially with body and legs. Plus the fact that tweets down low almost always pull down the stage height at the edges, bowing. You'll notice a big difference once you put them on the pillars.

Did you get around to trying any of the suggested eq settings?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I'm with Richard on tweets in kicks. I have always struggled to tune cars with tweeters down low. Major response issues specially with body and legs. Plus the fact that tweets down low almost always pull down the stage height at the edges, bowing. You'll notice a big difference once you put them on the pillars.
> 
> Did you get around to trying any of the suggested eq settings?


No I literally came home and went to bed. Had to load cement all night so was a little tired. To tired to try and work on the car. Would have rushed things and made mistakes. I will get to them when I can.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Ok implemented some changes ErinH and sqnut suggested. 

*Notes:*

1) Changed the crossover point to 2500hz instead of 2000hz for mid and tweeter.

2) Cut 200Hz up full -24db with Q=5 (I stated wrong earlier guys 360.3 Q setting is like this (.1= Widest , 6= Narrowest) on Sub. Intermittent EQ setting from 100 to 200hz

3) Cut 5Khz up full -24db with Q=5 on mids. Intermittent EQ setting from 2.5Khz to 5Khz

4) Cut 1Khz down full -24db with Q=5 on tweets. Intermittent EQ setting from 2.5Khz to 1Khz (now this I may have set a little lower then 1Khz I can't recall atm.

5) While looking at the responses I got I changed the overall level of my passenger tweeter -5db.

6) " " " " I dropped mids 400hz= -2db, 1Khz= -1db, 1250hz=-4db, 1600hz=-1db


Now the data/graphs do not reflect the #5 and #6 change listed above. I didn't have time to graph that. Will get that tomorrow morning (pending what happens at work). 

Here are some screen shots for those on a phone:

TA Invert tweet and No invert Tweet:










TA No invert Tweet:










TA Invert Tweet:










Here is the mdat files:

TA No invert Tweet and Invert Tweet:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgtlpg1qmtkbbte/TA%20Both%20invert%20and%20not.mdat

TA Tweet No Invert:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5bc3ghfg6y1bbb/TA%20tweet%20no%20phase%20invert.mdat

TA Tweet Invert:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/25gxjglw1ranqru/TA%20Tweet%20phase%20invert.mdat


Overall with the changes so far the imaging has improved a lot. Night and Day. Bass up front (some rattles in the rear bring that back some). Staging is good, tweeters location bring it down but as stated above I have a fix for that. Doing the full cuts listed above greatly improved the overall sound. Tightened things up, solidified the imaging even more. Driver side mid is strong 100hz-200hz as can be seen above. Being able to hear and see, and understand why its happening is nice. Overall very impressed. Best I've heard out of it so far.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Slight update:

I did a couple more adjustments L/R on the mids as from listening driving to work and home the 80-300hz range was just to strong. Using the 80PRS I was able to tame that range till just now when I adjusted using the 360.3

*Change notes:*

1) Cut 20Hz on both mids -16db. This is in attempt to roll off faster. Low end on these mids is strong. That could be the Sub as well seeing everything is coming from the front now so my initial distinction may be wrong. Will test my changes. May roll of the sub even more.

2) Driver side changes: Cut 100hz and 125hz by -1db @ Q= 6, 200hz by -2db @ Q=6

3) Passenger side changes: Cut 80hz by -5.0db @ Q= 5.5, 100hz by -4db @ Q=4.3, 125hz by -.5db @ Q= 5.5, 160hz by -5.5db @ Q= 5.5


Now I haven't measured this as its 90 in my garage right now so am waiting for it to cool down. I haven't touched the tweeters yet independently as I haven't yet seen the result of the overall level change I implemented yesterday.

Some potential changes:

The tweeters IMO could use a slight boost on the gain. I tend to like a little more tweeter. Not sure what I will do with the mids yet. Will have to see what cutting did side to side. May increase the crossover to 85-90hz (on the mids only, I know a little underlap on the sub/mids but may not be to noticeable by ear, especially if I do 85hz, will experiment a little with that. 

Also to make it known I'm rolling with the tweeters inverted.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Worked a few hours on the car tonight. The main goal was to level match the sides. Four variants later I came up with this:










Also spent some time tweaking EQ on the HU for a couple weeks of critical listening. All cuts not boost in any of my EQ points.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

So this past weekend was Parts Express Midwest Audio fest. This year I actually had some cash to spend so here is a little something I got:

Two Dayton Audio Ultimax 15" D2 subs:



















Box inside a box:










These where very well packaged:


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Specs can be found here:

Dayton Audio UM15-22 15" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer 2 ohms Per Coil

As I have mentioned earlier I plan to go IB with these two subs. Keep an eye out on my build log as I am basically re-doing a lot of my wiring, etc and will be changing up my front stage as well. Making quite the step up. Maybe some Competitions in my future?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hi,

I would change the location of the tweeter before buying new equipment. $ 10 stock speakers with the right setup and tune will sound way better than a $ 500 pair of components with no tuning. $ 500 components with no tuning will sound much better than that with a wrong tune. The point I'm making is, in a car it’s 60% tuning 30% placement and install and 10% is equipment. That said I know you want to try IB and by all means do experiment. The subs look really nice! Congrats.

Going back to your charts, your L/R looks pretty good now. I'm sure visually the sound is a lot more stable. A couple of things on resolution, first as Erin pointed out the scale on all your graphs is 20db, bring that down to 10 db for a more realistic picture of what’s going on. 

When I'm setting up a car, I will measure at 1/6oct to see where the problem lies and then use the 1/3 oct results to actually make the eq adjustment. I can only correct at 1/3. So if I see a 6db peak at 1/6 which is about 3db at 1/3 then depending on where I'm making the cut, I'll cut anything from 2-4db. I will typically spread a deep cut between two adjacent bands. Let’s say at 1/6 oct the 6 db peak is at 350hz I will spread the cut between 300 and 400hz. If it's a big enough hump, I'll spread the cut over three bands i.e. 200, 315 and 400. I'm using the measurements to get it in the ballpark. Tuning for tonality/timbre etc is all by ear. 

Up for trying an experiment with the eq? Do you have the 1/3 oct PN tracks? If not, download them and burn them to a cd. Save your current settings and try this.

Play the PN noise tracks starting at 30hz and go back and forth between successive frequencies. You are trying to get both frequencies equally loud, as you're hearing them. So balance 30 and 40 then do 40 and 50, 50 and 63 and so on. Keep in mind that the perceived loudness in the 30-60 hz range is about both amplitude and physical impact. Playing the PN between 30-200 is a great way of identifying and earmarking rattling and resonance issues. Fixing those will go a long way towards cleaning up the sound. I'm talking a huge difference. When you do the 30-100 zone it may help if you turn the gains down on your sub amp and start deep cuts on the sub eq past 80hz. 

*From about 100hz up your ear gets more sensitive to change in pitch. With say 100 and 200 hz at the same amplitude, 200hz will sound slightly louder. 1 KHz at the same amplitude will sound much louder. You want to balance the 100-1khz range so that there is a gradual increase in perceived intensity. *

You want to hear a fairly steep roll off past 1khz to about 4khz. Make 5khz slightly louder than 4 (1-2db) and then go for a very gradual slope down to 15khz. Depending on the frequency you're cutting, you may need to cut between two sets of drivers, sub/mid or mid/tweet etc. All this is for 'as you're hearing it'.

Don't try and do this all at one go. With PN ear fatigue sets in within about 10 mts. So do this for 10 mts and then step out of the car for 15-20 mts. Then go back and recheck what you did if something is out of whack correct that before moving on. 

Save the setting as B and now play music. How does it sound? Does it sound more balanced? Measure it at 1/6 and 1/3 let's see what we come up with. I'm really going out on a limb with this post so if I fall flat on my face, I only have myself to blame . 

Questions are welcome.

Arun


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut:

PN tracks being?


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Beckerson1 said:


> sqnut:
> 
> PN tracks being?


Pink Noise (at least my educated guess) 

I think Hanatsu posted some of his tuning discs. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2075272-post52.html

EDIT: OP, IIRC the 360.3 disc might have PN tracks also.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

papasin said:


> Pink Noise (at least my educated guess)
> 
> I think Hanatsu posted some of his tuning discs.
> 
> ...


Yes Shwan supplied me with quite a few pink noise tracks. Hanatsu's tracks as well. 200Hz on up. Just would need to do up 200hz down.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes PN = Pink Noise 

Even I have the tracks from Hanatsu's disc which are 200 hz and up. The tracks I have below 200hz are test tones which is not the same thing. Some processors have a feature to generate these PN tracks like Richard mentioned. Check if the 360.3 does it or if the CD has these tracks. IIRC there is a website where you can generate these PN tracks, let me see if I can find it.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Yes PN = Pink Noise
> 
> Even I have the tracks from Hanatsu's disc which are 200 hz and up. The tracks I have below 200hz are test tones which is not the same thing. Some processors have a feature to generate these PN tracks like Richard mentioned. Check if the 360.3 does it. IIRC there is a website where you can generate these PN tracks, let me see if I can find it.


Na the 360.3 doesn't.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Beckerson1 said:


> Na the 360.3 doesn't.


I double checked, OP's right. What the disc has is sine sweeps from 20-200, 200-2k, and 2k-20k. It also has a couple full range PN tracks, so I got those confused.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

papasin said:


> I double checked, OP's right. What the disc has is sine sweeps from 20-200, 200-2k, and 2k-20k. It also has a couple full range PN tracks, so I got those confused.


Among a couple others to set gains but that's irrelevant.

I will work on this when I can. Probably Saturday. If not a couple days this week.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I've been searching for about 30 minutes across different key words looking for the PN tracks. The site I was thinking about, Online Tone Generators - Highest Quality only generates test tones, which don't work very well in a car. I found this disk Sound Check 2 Sound Effects Library Test Disc | Sound Ideas Which is perfect and has some great additional tracks but it costs $ 129!! Then again it's a branded product, Alan Parson helped put the disc together.

Some of the tuning discs may have these tracks as well. This is the link to The autoSound CD http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_19754_AutoSound-2000-CD-102-CD102.htmland one of them has the 20-20 KHz pink noise tracks. 

You can start with 200hz up and we can come back to the lower end later. Get to a point where from 200 to 1khz is gradual increase of 3-4 db and 1-4khz is a roll off about 4-6db. If you have an android you can download Sound Meter and use your phone to and use that as a guide as well. But set it first by ear and then check via the sound meter.

Arun


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I've been searching for about 30 minutes across different key words looking for the PN tracks. The site I was thinking about, Online Tone Generators - Highest Quality only generates test tones, which don't work very well in a car. I found this disk Sound Check 2 Sound Effects Library Test Disc | Sound Ideas Which is perfect and has some great additional tracks but it costs $ 129!! Then again it's a branded product, Alan Parson helped put the disc together.
> 
> Some of the tuning discs may have these tracks as well. This is the link to The autoSound CD AutoSound 2000 CD-102 (cd102) High Frequency Test CD, Softwareand one of them has the 20-20 KHz pink noise tracks.
> 
> ...


OK that was going to be another question. If I could use a meter to help determine the db increase/decrease. As even though I played a trumpet for 8 years years in highscool Imy not that good at figuring db level.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Since you've played music for 8 years you will find it much easier to train your ears than someone like me who had no musical background. It took me about 3-4 years to get to a point where I could trust my ears with some degree of accuracy. You're not using your ears to figure out absolute db. You're only using them to tell you 'louder' or 'softer'. That's not too tough. So use the ears and set up 200-1khz so that 500 seems slightly louder than 200 and 1khz sounds a touch louder than 500. Measure it and it should be a 2-3db increase. 

The reason I'm so hung on 1khz is because 1-2khz is v important for bringing out the dynamics in the sound. The snap and tautness in your mid bass comes from this region as well. This range has the important harmonics of bass instruments. Too much in the 500-1.25khz will thin out the sound and give it a tinny and telephone like sound. Watch 600-800 closely. 800hz is good for clarity but both 600 and 800 can thin out the sound real fast and give it a horn like sound. 1.25 and 1.6khz make the sound gritty and 1.6 makes the sound screechy. When people talk about 'bright' tweeters most often the 1.6-2.5khz range is too hot. Hence the steeper roll off past 1khz. Like a good recipe you want the everything in the two octaves from 500-1khz in the right proportion. The mid range from ~500-3khz is the most critical part of your sound.

One other thing, how loud do you normally listen to music? Once you download the sound meter play music at a level you normally listen at, and measure. If your normal listening level is 100-105db you may not need that 2-3db rise to 1khz, even 1-2db may be enough, In which case you'd want to keep 200-1 flattish by ear. My absolute cranking volume is ~90-95db and the 3-4db rise works well for me. This bit is applied from ELC/FM curves based on how we hear. All the tuning in the car is either to try and negate the effects of your environment and/or to compensate for how we hear. 

Have I succeeded in totally confusing you? It's just that with sound in situation A, X could be better while in situation B, Y would be better. The broad rules are consistent though.

Arun


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

There's a reason why I want you to do this exercise by ear. In a car frequencies above ~500 hz are highly prone to reflections, so you're hearing the direct sound and a ton of early reflections. While we don't hear the direct and reflected sounds as two seperate entities the reflections cause the brain to think that the incident sound is louder than it actually is. Your mic does not 'hear' like this. So your mic may measure 200hz and 3khz at 80 db but thanks to reflections and the fact that your ears are super sensitive at 3khz, the ears will tell you that 3khz is much louder than 200. So it's important to try and set the 500-4khz range by ear for a start.

Arun


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Since you've played music for 8 years you will find it much easier to train your ears than someone like me who had no musical background. It took me about 3-4 years to get to a point where I could trust my ears with some degree of accuracy. You're not using your ears to figure out absolute db. You're only using them to tell you 'louder' or 'softer'. That's not too tough. So use the ears and set up 200-1khz so that 500 seems slightly louder than 200 and 1khz sounds a touch louder than 500. Measure it and it should be a 2-3db increase.
> 
> The reason I'm so hung on 1khz is because 1-2khz is v important for bringing out the dynamics in the sound. The snap and tautness in your mid bass comes from this region as well. This range has the important harmonics of bass instruments. Too much in the 500-1.25khz will thin out the sound and give it a tinny and telephone like sound. Watch 600-800 closely. 800hz is good for clarity but both 600 and 800 can thin out the sound real fast and give it a horn like sound. 1.25 and 1.6khz make the sound gritty and 1.6 makes the sound screechy. When people talk about 'bright' tweeters most often the 1.6-2.5khz range is too hot. Hence the steeper roll off past 1khz. Like a good recipe you want the everything in the two octaves from 500-1khz in the right proportion. The mid range from ~500-3khz is the most critical part of your sound.
> 
> ...


Actually no you haven't. I definately have a issue right around 300hz. Its quite strong. Bloated. That and i definately get resonace still in my door at that range as well. More or less a observation of mine so far.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Excess of 300 won't bloat the sound. Look at cutting 200-250 and a touch at 100-125. Excess of 300 will make the vocals thicker.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Excess of 300 won't bloat the sound. Look at cutting 200-250 and a touch at 100-125. Excess of 300 will make the vocals thicker.


Ok will give that a shot.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Also, start cutting the sub eq at 80 and max out the cut by 125. Everything beyond 125 is cut to the max on the sub eq. On the mids cut 200-250 by 2-3 db and the 100-125 range by a db or so. Start cutting the mid at 80 and max out the cuts by 30hz. See if this helps.

Are you still using the 24db/oct slopes?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Also, start cutting the sub eq at 80 and max out the cut by 125. Everything beyond 125 is cut to the max on the sub eq. On the mids cut 200-250 by 2-3 db and the 100-125 range by a db or so. Start cutting the mid at 80 and max out the cuts by 30hz. See if this helps.
> 
> Are you still using the 24db/oct slopes?


Ok I iirc it went to either 125-200hz on the sub. I will get that checked and fixed. Also cutting 200hz (cut -4db) was the major problem area as far as the bloated sound. Cut some at 125 and 250 (both around -3/-2) as well. That was just going by ear. Now this was all just off the hu as I didn't have my interlink (stupid Rockford went backwards and didn't implement bluetooth like they did in the 360.2)

Ok I don't recall touching the low end of the mid so that should help clean that area up a fair bit.

Yes I'm still running a 24db/oct slope (butterworth)


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How does it sound now? Less bloated, but are vocals still a bit thin? In case you made deep cuts at 300 earlier, bring that up a bit. It will make the vocals more natural and fuller. If you feel the low end getting thick again, cut a touch more at 200-250.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> How does it sound now? Less bloated, but are vocals still a bit thin? In case you made deep cuts at 300 earlier, bring that up a bit. It will make the vocals more natural and fuller. If you feel the low end getting thick again, cut a touch more at 200-250.


Cleaner. Less bloated. I need to give it a good listen to see if I need to cut a little more. Vocals seem to be good, will know more when I listen more.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You're doing good. This weekend when you have some time, try the leveling by ear exercise. That will give you a good base curve to work from. Start by measuring things as they stand, Sub, L+R mid, L+R tweet and the combined response all in one chart. Then level by ear, once you have got that then go back and measure again. It would be interesting to see all the changes.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hi,

Howz it going?

Arun


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Hi,
> 
> Howz it going?
> 
> Arun


Going good. Haven't had the time to do anything yet but do plan to get the drivers response before and start working on the 200-1 range after work here. Will see how far I get with it.

Just so I go into it with the right mind I should (starting from 200hz) increase up to roughly 3db or as you say make 500 sound slightly louder then 200 and 1 slightly louder then 500hz. So that when I measure it should be a 1-3db increase from 200 to 1k. Now should I try to keep 1k to 4k somewhat level as far as by ear? Then roll off from that point? Or keep 4khz on level and roll off around 10k or so?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Since you've played music for 8 years you will find it much easier to train your ears than someone like me who had no musical background. It took me about 3-4 years to get to a point where I could trust my ears with some degree of accuracy. You're not using your ears to figure out absolute db. You're only using them to tell you 'louder' or 'softer'. That's not too tough. So use the ears and set up 200-1khz so that 500 seems slightly louder than 200 and 1khz sounds a touch louder than 500. Measure it and it should be a 2-3db increase.
> 
> The reason I'm so hung on 1khz is because 1-2khz is v important for bringing out the dynamics in the sound. The snap and tautness in your mid bass comes from this region as well. This range has the important harmonics of bass instruments. Too much in the 500-1.25khz will thin out the sound and give it a tinny and telephone like sound. Watch 600-800 closely. 800hz is good for clarity but both 600 and 800 can thin out the sound real fast and give it a horn like sound. 1.25 and 1.6khz make the sound gritty and 1.6 makes the sound screechy. When people talk about 'bright' tweeters most often the 1.6-2.5khz range is too hot. Hence the steeper roll off past 1khz. Like a good recipe you want the everything in the two octaves from 500-1khz in the right proportion. The mid range from ~500-3khz is the most critical part of your sound.
> 
> ...


Well as to how loud I listen to music. I. Can't give you a accurate number by and means as its different while driving vs not driving. Not driving get I'm probably close to 90 to 95 but while drive get its much more. Probably closer to 100 to 105. Road noise is killer right now. But that's just a estimate. I haven't metered it. But I would say that's fairly close and should give you a good idea. I'm tuning to no driving so figure right around 90db. Safe guess. I may be surprised to find out I'm fairly close with eq on Hu ( don't worry I will flatten it out on the Hu and just adjust with the 360.3) it's sounding really good right now. Havent messed with 1k up. Only 200 to about 500hz or so. Still some deep cuts on the hu around 200hz though. With the tweeters and mids low it really pulls the stage down but width seems fairly good. May need to slightly adjust ta. Question. True center should be right in front of me correct?

Also been looking at this and making out a list of what you stated and roughly what the chart says the general purpose of a specific frequency does to music. Good tool?

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm sorry about the delay. I wanted to devote some time to this post to do it right. Gather my thoughts so that I'm not all over the place.

It would be great if you could post the current measured response, just to get a grip on where we are. Measure at 10 db level, an overall response also showing the sub, mids combined and tweets combined. We are not looking at L/R unless you're hearing or seeing any specific issues. Let’s look at things on a 1/6 resolution. 

You’ve had a bit of time with your tune, what do you pick as the top 2-3 things that are good about the sound those that could be better? Let’s try and put what you’re measuring and what you’re hearing. Do you have a reference sound that you are aiming for? It could be as simple as a flac file on your ipod through a good pair of cans. It won’t do much for visuals but it’s good for hearing tonal accuracy.

I think the dip ~2khz related to driver location. For now let’s focus on tonal balance. Download the sound pro app for your phone or get a spl meter so you can measure as you go along. We listen at more or less similar levels. 90-95 db on the road and high 80's with engine off. 

The interactive chart is a great tool. For instance if you look at the sax, the fundamentals go from ~150-700, harmonics from 800-8khz and 8-12khz is overblow/breath. So if the sax doesn’t sound right, try and pick which part is out (low end, med, top) that gives you an idea of where to tweak. Initially most of the issues will be in the fundamentals or the lower harmonics as you fix these the ones higher up will start becoming apparent and so on. 

The other reason I like the chart is because it helps to understand the notion of balance. For the sax to sound right the frequencies across the three bands that make up the note must be in balance with each other, this for every note. You’re looking beyond the absolute measurement of a frequency. You’re looking at it relative to the overall mix. Is it contributing to or detracting from overall balance.

/Ramble.

Ok now to your post and questions.
200 ---> 500 gradual rise of 2db
500---> 1khz gradual rise of 1-2db. Do this and then cut 600hz by 0.5db
1--->1.6khz roll off 2db
1.6--->4khz roll off 4db

This is a rough curve. Dial it in and lets hear your opinions before tweaking further. Let's see the response curves before we get into this.

If you want to flatten out the settings on your hu then just transpose the cut at 200 from the hu to the 360.3. 

Ideally the stage should be offset from you. A down and dirty way to check this is that the vocalist who is normally recorded front centre, should image up at your rear view. This gives you equal space for left and right stage. After all you are sitting offset from the centre.

If height is an issue then draw an imaginary perpendicular line from the rear view to the dash and the vocalist should be somewhere on this line. Play the PN tracks from 200hz up and get each frequency centred along that imaginary line.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Ideally the stage should be offset from you. A down and dirty way to check this is that the vocalist who is normally recorded front centre, should image up at your rear view. This gives you equal space for left and right stage. After all you are sitting offset from the centre.
> 
> If height is an issue then draw an imaginary perpendicular line from the rear view to the dash and the vocalist should be somewhere on this line. Play the PN tracks from 200hz up and get each frequency centred along that imaginary line.


I had thought a proper image was dialed straight ahead for image center. I guess that would be improperly centered to the left.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I'm sorry about the delay. I wanted to devote some time to this post to do it right. Gather my thoughts so that I'm not all over the place.
> 
> It would be great if you could post the current measured response, just to get a grip on where we are. Measure at 10 db level, an overall response also showing the sub, mids combined and tweets combined. We are not looking at L/R unless you're hearing or seeing any specific issues. Let’s look at things on a 1/6 resolution.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks for responding and clarifying things. I haven't dug into the car yet as I don't feel like rushing and many times I'm exhausted after work. Probably not the best situation to be in when trying to tune.

I seemed to have fixed the area around 200hz but still have some other areas to touch on. Lower end of the vocals (male more prominently then female, but depends on singer. Also Lower ranges of the guitar. Seems to be overpowering). Seemed to have narrowed it down to the 1k ish range, HU can only do so much so will have to play with the 360.3 as well as do 200-4k+

Trying to be patient and take things on one at a time. Make adjustments and listen.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Take your time. The best time to tinker is when the mind and ears are fresh, for me that was early in the day vs late nights when the body, mind and ears are fatigued. 

The bottom end of female vocals are around 300hz and the bottom end for male vocals is ~125-160. If the bottom end of guitar is heavy and thick, look at pruning a bit in the 160-250. Be very careful with 160 as too deep a cut will make the overall sound thin and too much of 160 can make the sound fat and thick. If the guitar has too much 'bite' look at cuts in the 2-4khz region. If your male vocals (specially) sound thin and a bit hollow then cut a bit at 600-800. 

Arun


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Take your time. The best time to tinker is when the mind and ears are fresh, for me that was early in the day vs late nights when the body, mind and ears are fatigued.
> 
> The bottom end of female vocals are around 300hz and the bottom end for male vocals is ~125-160. If the bottom end of guitar is heavy and thick, look at pruning a bit in the 160-250. Be very careful with 160 as too deep a cut will make the overall sound thin and too much of 160 can make the sound fat and thick. If the guitar has too much 'bite' look at cuts in the 2-4khz region. If your male vocals (specially) sound thin and a bit hollow then cut a bit at 600-800.
> 
> Arun


Ok. Nothing so far sounds thin IMHO, as far as where im working right now. 

I'm going to have major cuts right around that 200hz range. I'm at the limits of my hu. I will see about transferring changes on my hu to the 360.3 in the morning here and see if I can at least get my hu back to flat. Then work from there. Then tomorrow morning look at getting a fr graph. If not tomorrow morning it would be later that night after I wake up. Then hopefully Saturday I will have time to work on that general curve.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Work at your pace and convenience. Once you're in it, this hobby is more addictive than any drug in the world. The better the sound gets the more hooked you'll be.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Work at your pace and convenience. Once you're in it, this hobby is more addictive than any drug in the world. The better the sound gets the more hooked you'll be.


Tell me about it lol


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> I'm going to have major cuts right around that 200hz range. I'm at the limits of my hu. I will see about transferring changes on my hu to the 360.3 in the morning


If you've cut a lot at 200 and still feel like you'd like to cut a bit more, try a small 1-1.5db cuts at 80 & 160hz and see if that helps.

[edit] Looked at the old response curves and 80 looks hot compared to 200. You've cut 200 a bunch so that difference would be even more pronounced. Try cutting 2-3db at 80 on the mids and then put the sub on a steeper slope. I.E. if your sub is on a 24db/oct slope put it on a 36 or even 48db slope. That will clean up the mid bass range a whole lot. [edit]


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update: 

Repainted the bumper garnish. Need a fresh look:










Next weekend I will be out of town on vacation but the week of the 8th I have a whole list of to do on my car. Expect a massive amount of pics and updates during that week. 

Just a little taste of whats on the docket:

1) Deadening (snagging the 40 pounder B stock from SS (so far product to money its a no brainer))
2) Re-wire
3) Techflex
.....


Hopefully the 9th I can get the Daytons in IB (maybe not fully functional but at least get them in)

The plan is 3 layers 3/4" Birch Ply and the daytons counter sunk for a flush look. 

Stay tuned for some major progress, taking the install to a knew level hopefully


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Do the tweak at 80hz, and you can listen to better balance in your sound as you go through your checklist .


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Do the tweak at 80hz, and you can listen to better balance in your sound as you go through your checklist .


Lol will do.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is how the garnish looks on the car. Looks really nice in person.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Looks really nice. I'm all thumbs. I would never be able to do stuff like that. Look forward to the rest of the work.

You may want to white out the licence plate. Then again maybe I'm just a paranoid older dude .


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Looks really nice. I'm all thumbs. I would never be able to do stuff like that. Look forward to the rest of the work.
> 
> You may want to white out the licence plate. Then again maybe I'm just a paranoid older dude .


Lol. I love painting. Nothing better then completely changing somethings appearance to make it look new again. Eventually I want to be able to repaint my entire car. Still have a lot of painting to do still as well. 

So far I can say the best primer I've used is the high build/self etching primer from SEM. Stuff went on without issue and turnEd out great with no sanding at all.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Beckerson1 said:


> Thanks ErinH. I definitely used your site. Had to adjust gains so here is the clean slate with NO TA, EQ Flat, LR balance center.
> 
> No TA Starting point:
> 
> ...


Saw your message, kind of a late reply but it looks like you got some expert opinion from the guys here^^

This is a good way in determining how good phase are aligned between drivers. I'd place a low Q EQ filter at ~500Hz and boost it by ~3dB and a low Q EQ filter at 4kHz and lower it by 5-10dB to balance that curve out. Dunno what type of DSP you use (RF360?) or if you have done anything since this. You generally want the lower midrange louder relative to the upper midrange/highs.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Day 1 Update:

Vacation time. Time to work on the car:

Not a whole lot going on today other then tare down and cleaning things up. I was going to try and get some CLD laid today but I wasn't able to grab more CLD in time for today's progress. I purchased the 40 pounder (from SS, B stock Damplifier) and should have it by the end of the day Wednesday so tossed a slight wrench in my plans but it will be fine.

I will say now the car was a mess, Not audio wise but actual mess. It's time for a deep clean.

Sorry this one is a little dark but got the seats out. Driver side was a pain as the bolts have been warn down so much I need to grab some new ones. Also need to look into taping the hole again as its gummed up. Not striped. Need to make sure to put never cease on the bolt when I put the new ones in.










Here is a better shot:










Got the rear seat removed. Wasn't to bad, forgot about one mounting bolt and had to search a little bit before the seat came out:










Got the center counsel removed. Couple bolts and it is out:










Here I got the carpeting out. The extra red/black wiring I removed completely (was for my interior courtesy lights). Unfortunately things will be harder for me as far as the firewall area goes. There is padding already there which seems to be glued down from the factory. Not sure how I will tackle it. May have to wait till I can tare out the entire dash. I will have to see.











Taking a break now as we have new furniture coming in. I may or may not take anymore pics today as I probably won't tackle much more today. Stay tuned for tomorrows progress. Here is a little list of whats going on:

1) Map out the route my new speaker wire run will take and get that run. 
2) Map out and run the main power/ground run to the front.
3) Re ground HU and redo power wire as well (this will mean all my audio will be ground at one source)
4) Layout how I will mount the DC/DC converters (5v and 7.5v) for Pure i20 and temp controller

All wire runs will get techflex (as long as I have enough), labeled, and secured every 8 inches.

That should be about all I will do tomorrow. Stay tuned


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Finishing up the same deal myself in the 08 Si.. I'm taking advantage of one of the two nice threaded spots where that OEM amp used to be under the driver seat for my amp grounds. Imagine you won't have that in a coupe though.

Ran my 1/0 through the hole under the cross 'beam' on driver side so to place my distro block just after it where the oem amp used to reside. Ran turn-on's down left side and RCA's down right side of center console, though eventually RCA's and speaker leads from both sides end up having to cross paths with power lines to get to the amps, unavoidably. 4ga crossing through the console for the passenger side +12V and ground. It's spaghetti for sure.

I thought doing amps under seat would be easier, but hell it seems like it was easier to do it all in trunk.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

(Someone needs to vacuum... )


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

sirbOOm said:


> (Someone needs to vacuum... )


Yep.. Mine looked as bad.. It's amazing how nasty cars can get, and this Honda carpet seems like it just sucks up dirt. Spent no less than an 1 1/2 hours and the hand-held attachment on my carpet cleaner getting after it.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Finishing up the same deal myself in the 08 Si.. I'm taking advantage of one of the two nice threaded spots where that OEM amp used to be under the driver seat for my amp grounds. Imagine you won't have that in a coupe though.
> 
> Ran my 1/0 through the hole under the cross 'beam' on driver side so to place my distro block just after it where the oem amp used to reside. Ran turn-on's down left side and RCA's down right side of center console, though eventually RCA's and speaker leads from both sides end up having to cross paths with power lines to get to the amps, unavoidably. 4ga crossing through the console for the passenger side +12V and ground. It's spaghetti for sure.
> 
> I thought doing amps under seat would be easier, but hell it seems like it was easier to do it all in trunk.



Ya the coupe has the amp up by the shifter. Just left mine alone. All I'm doing now is just re-doing wiring, etc... 

Ran my power through the fender (ran loom inside the fender) into the cabin and then run down the driver side trim and into the rear. I'd like to re-do the power run but don't have enough wiggle room with the wire I have. 

Carpet was a pain though. Had to cut a couple areas in order to remove it without taking apart my gas pedal, and remove my emergency brake lines. Both areas won't be seen.



sirbOOm said:


> (Someone needs to vacuum... )


:laugh: That's what happens when you work in the oil field. Trust me though I have a day planed just for deep cleaning.


Update:

Got things cleaned up and am ready for tomorrow. Unfortunately I don't have big enough shrink wrap for the power run up front. So will have to temporarily use electrical tape to clean it up


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Gas pedal isn't hard to remove. I finally bit the bullet and pulled it all.. Much easier by far to route without the carpet as you know. Yep all kinds of ground spots with a trunk build.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Gas pedal isn't hard to remove. I finally bit the bullet and pulled it all.. Much easier by far to route without the carpet as you know. Yep all kinds of ground spots with a trunk build.


I'm sure it isn't. Just didn't want to.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update Day 2:

Got a fair bit done today. Started of by adding techflex to the power run up front and my optical cable. Turned out really nice. Love the look.

So started the run to the front:










It's hard to see but I have the main battery run going to the barrier strip (think its a 30/40 amp barrier strip) and there is a jumper off the 12V+ that goes to the fuse block. I can use up to 6 different 12V+ fused connections off this block. ATM I only have the 360.3 fused. 

I then ran the line to the front from this point...

Here is how I routed the RCA input, Optical input, and remote for the 360.3. I tried to stay away from the power run. So far succeeding.










Power/ground run at the top and RCA, optical, and remote down bellow:










Power ground run enters into the cabin through a hole in the support:










Up over the hump:










Continues the run to the front via the stock run. Couple places I had to make a mounting point but for the most part just zip tied to the stock run:










RCA, Optical, Remote come in on the passenger side rail:


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Wires run under the seat mount and take a left towards center of car:










What isn't shown in the RCA's along with this run. Later one I add this run, wasn't to sure how I wanted to run the RCA's quite yet as of the pic:










Now this is what the stock grounds look like. PAINT!!!! Bad for conductivity. I fixed this via grinding the paint off to bare metal. Should be quite the improvement over what it was. Did both the passenger side and driver side. There is one ground (probably for the stock amp) towards the front of the center counsel area. I will fix this one as well, might as well










Now this this something I did last night. I decided to paint the terminals for some improved looks. Not meant to look perfect btw.












Now this will be the about it for today. You may ask why I'm taking so long on wiring. Well I'm spreading work out between the days as I won't have my CLD till tomorrow afternoon sometime. So I should be able to get the rest of the wiring done tomorrow morning and get started on laying CLD tomorrow afternoon/evening. Then Thursday finish off the CLD and lay down a layer of the Thermal padding I have.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Ain't these Civ's a ***** to run wires or what?

Looks good.. Coming along nicely. Yep get a dremel wire wheel on that paint and that seat-mount cross-beam is a good spot I think. 

I wonder.. Would it be good recipe to ground the head unit to a spot like that instead of car harness in these civics? Since I'm running a relay and SWI, which tells me to ground also another line on the car harness with the SWI in place, it just seems like a lot of stuff grounded there. 

Ignorant question for the day. Do folks run +12v constant and ground to head units like they do amps?


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Babs said:


> Do folks run +12v constant and ground to head units like they do amps?


I decided to run my HU's +12v constant and ground directly to my distro blocks all the way in the back so that there's a common point for all my audio. Since my main is a circuit breaker, I can switch it on/off at one point. Keeps things simple for maintenance, and also, if I ever take the car for service (rarely since I do my own for the most part). But in the off chance I do, I can trip the circuit breaker and it's all off and only need to do it at one spot. Also minimizes any possible noise issues or ground loops.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Ain't these Civ's a ***** to run wires or what?
> 
> Looks good.. Coming along nicely. Yep get a dremel wire wheel on that paint and that seat-mount cross-beam is a good spot I think.
> 
> ...


Ya I was able to use a grinder tool and got the paint off. Just didn't take any pics. Actually wiring was really easy. Was able to run how I wanted to run things. Now its a matter if I can get the stuff back in. Such as tight fit. 

Yes I tend to agree that using a better ground (be it to a good spot on the firewall or other good chassis ground) overall on the HU is better then using the stock ground. My 80PRS has a built in Voltmeter and it reads a good .3V off actual voltage at the battery. I feel the ground is really crappy resulting in this as others don't have such a big offset. Hopefully improving the ground (every piece of audio equipment is run right off my battery in the rear, had to relocate due to Hybrid Racing intake. Grounding the HU in this way would eliminate any ground loop that may be occurring.) I'm also going to just do my 12V+ from this point as well. 

As to grounding to these spots. You can but I would keep grounds short so grounding to a solid point around your relay will work quite well. You can always make a ground point if you want. Just make sure its solid.


Some people do as you can introduce a ground loop (sometimes you don't have issues and sometimes you will). I'm only doing it as I will have 12V+ close and a direct ground point as well (as I need the 12V+/ground for my DC/DC converters).


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Thanks for the info guys. Some things for me to ponder I think before I button it all back up, to stay with just a harness method or rethink a 12v constant to distro and ground to ground, both under seat currently. Same here.. 80PRS head unit.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

I did a common ground on my head unit as well. I used harness for 12v and signal. Wasnt much extra work to run a wire back for ground and may have saved me headache later


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> I did a common ground on my head unit as well. I used harness for 12v and signal. Wasnt much extra work to run a wire back for ground and may have saved me headache later


Lol should have done this the first time I installed stuff. It's a pain to go back and re-do things...


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

casey said:


> I did a common ground on my head unit as well. I used harness for 12v and signal. Wasnt much extra work to run a wire back for ground and may have saved me headache later





Beckerson1 said:


> Lol should have done this the first time I installed stuff. It's a pain to go back and re-do things...





Beckerson1 said:


> Yes I tend to agree that using a better ground (be it to a good spot on the firewall or other good chassis ground) overall on the HU is better then using the stock ground. My 80PRS has a built in Voltmeter and it reads a good .3V off actual voltage at the battery. I feel the ground is really crappy resulting in this as others don't have such a big offset. Hopefully improving the ground (every piece of audio equipment is run right off my battery in the rear, had to relocate due to Hybrid Racing intake. Grounding the HU in this way would eliminate any ground loop that may be occurring.) I'm also going to just do my 12V+ from this point as well.
> 
> As to grounding to these spots. You can but I would keep grounds short so grounding to a solid point around your relay will work quite well. You can always make a ground point if you want. Just make sure its solid.
> 
> ...





papasin said:


> I decided to run my HU's +12v constant and ground directly to my distro blocks all the way in the back so that there's a common point for all my audio. Since my main is a circuit breaker, I can switch it on/off at one point. Keeps things simple for maintenance, and also, if I ever take the car for service (rarely since I do my own for the most part). But in the off chance I do, I can trip the circuit breaker and it's all off and only need to do it at one spot. Also minimizes any possible noise issues or ground loops.


Fascinating stuff guys. Thanks. Yeah it wouldn't be a terribly long run for grounding everything.. Just under the driver seat to a threaded spot for me. I could essentially ground all gear at that spot or right next to it. Funny I thought I read at one time it wasn't advisable to ground all at the same spot. Much for me to learn about actual 12v work, for sure.

Beckerson1, sorry to hijack your build.  Nice to see all these 8th Civic builds. Mine's coming so you can hijack me back.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Looks like sound up is a while away lol .


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Looks like sound up is a while away lol .


Feels like it. Got my other wiring all tech flexed and ready to install and all the wiring and running will be done. Then its time for CLD and thermal padding. Then I finally can get things put back into the car and cleaned. Just in time for Saturday and Sunday. Saturday I'm replacing my CMC and if time permits start working on the baffle for the subs. Sunday I work but as of right now I'm going to leave the car with 98Civic who will continue to work on it while I'm at work and when I get back from work we can work a few more hours on it. HOPEFULLY I will have the baffle at least designed and ready to cut. If not cut. Then when time permits we can finish it up and get things sealed off. 

Still a lot of things to do... And the plan is to have everything (and I mean everything) done by next season so I can debut the car and hit up some shows.

So sub-stage needs finished, pillars are being worked on by Mark as we speak, Ipad integrated into the dash, and center control panel done up, painting, etc.... A lot of man hours ahead of me.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Just curious.. Where are you running your USB's for the head unit and which cables? 

I'm thinking center console where my old iPod went, to the console pocket.
Assuming I can run just a standard USB on one, iPod standard or iPhone Lightning on the other.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

That's a pretty good pace. You'll have sound early next week. I'm looking at the stripped down car and thinking hmm, 1 guy working on it part time, probably 7-10 days for sound. Then again I little clue how to go about what you're doing. 

I'm really curious about how the sub will sound IB vs in a box in the boot. I think we may need to turn down the gains a bit on the sub and the fact that the IB might require a bit more eq work, but I'm curious about how it sounds.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Just curious.. Where are you running your USB's for the head unit and which cables?
> 
> I'm thinking center console where my old iPod went, to the console pocket.
> Assuming I can run just a standard USB on one, iPod standard or iPhone Lightning on the other.


I'm only using the one USB. I have that (or will have that) run down straight down to the floor and will bring that out the hole I have in my pocket right now. Later on I will possibly look at a more hidden approach.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> That's a pretty good pace. You'll have sound early next week. I'm looking at the stripped down car and thinking hmm, 1 guy working on it part time, probably 7-10 days for sound. Then again I little clue how to go about what you're doing.
> 
> I'm really curious about how the sub will sound IB vs in a box in the boot. I think we may need to turn down the gains a bit on the sub and the fact that the IB might require a bit more eq work, but I'm curious about how it sounds.


Well technically I have sound. Just hook the battery back up. Amps and everything were done a little while ago so right now I'm just running power to the front really and cleaning things up. I don't have enough techflex and 16 gauge OFC to redo the speaker wiring like I hoped. Also I haven't run everything I will need as I have to experiment a little with extending the temp prob for the controller (increasing the resistance to much will cause things to read off and could be a issue. Need to talk to some computer guys on Tomshardware and see what I should do, will have to extend the lead a good 12' and run the fans (+,-, and signal) wiring back as well. All having to be extended. So this won't be the last time I tare the car down. Just hope next time I won't have to tare it down 100%...

Well I'm going to do two different tunings. One specifically for balanced sound (everything blending well. Basically a competition/daily tune) and the other tuned more for max output on the subs (for my inner basshead when It needs feed). My goal is to achive well balanced sound with effortless (non-boomy which IB fits this bill) bass that can flex some muscle when I need it to which is the reason for multiple drivers (15's).

I'm excited to hear them (knowing at first it may sound off down low as I find and fix all the leaks. Should be interesting. Anyway enough talk, time to get things done up...


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Slight update:

Got the wiring done up and fired the car back up (power wise) and everything works perfectly. No magic white smoke so all success. 

Waiting on the UPS guy to deliver the CLD so I can work on that tonight and tomorrow.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update Day 3:

As said earlier I got the rest of the wiring done and things powered up without issues. 

Now I have started placing my CLD down. So far I have the rear portion of the interior done (floor section or rear seat). Tomorrow I will get the rest of the floor done and also get the thermal padding placed. My hope is to get that done and be able to get the carpet back in and then look at taring my rear interior panels off and seal up holes and fix some metal to plastic rattles I have. I've pin pointed the area of problem and seems to be a plastic mount (not a clip). Sorry no pics for today but will get some tomorrow morning before I start off the day...


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Nice work. I did my front doors on the last build w CLD, CCF and MLV but not the floors. Wanted to do some MLV but at this point I just want to button it up and fire it up. 

Totally pulled carpet and redid the wiring again tonight with different routing. These 8th Civ's are ***** dealing with the jaggies in the center console area. Amps, seats and head unit and plugged in tomorrow hopefully.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Nice work. I did my front doors on the last build w CLD, CCF and MLV but not the floors. Wanted to do some MLV but at this point I just want to button it up and fire it up.
> 
> Totally pulled carpet and redid the wiring again tonight with different routing. These 8th Civ's are ***** dealing with the jaggies in the center console area. Amps, seats and head unit and plugged in tomorrow hopefully.


Ya and it seems thats where a lot of noise comes from as well. At least with mine. That and the firewall behind the dash. That I have no idea how I will tackle it. It seems it will be easier to do it from the engine bay but the CLD won't handle the temps so IDK what I will do. I really don't want to deal with taking apart the dash lol...

Update:

Halfway into Day 4:

Now here is a couple shots of what I finished up yesterday:





























Now so far this is where I sit. 










Only have a small section to do in the front and I'm done placing CLD. I left all the airbag sensor stuff alone as it seems that I will have to diagnose why my airbag symbol is on my dash. Brother had the same issue and it was a sensor (seatbelt) so will have to have Honda check it out (shipped off my Flashpro tuner to get upgraded with Bluetooth so can't read the code for it). My luck I will have to rewire the harness or replace it all together. Which won't be a issue as everything is plug and play. As far as the plan for the padding. 

From experience of other members who own 8th gen Si's the plastic trim doesn't give enough space to allow for much padding (looking at less then 1/4" total. My padding is 3/8" plus whatever the thickness of the carpet is) so I will have to trim it to fit where this trim doesn't go. So for the most part its going to be 4 different sections which will be held via velcro in the corners for easy access to potential wiring repairs (even though I placed cld over a good portion of it), additions of wiring, etc...


Also I want to say a little something about the B stock damplifier I got from SS. Overall this stuff has been great. Not to mention $$$ per weight of this stuff you can't really beat. Give or take 40 pounds gives me roughly 105 Sq Ft of this stuff. Will have to weight what I have left but I can tell you this. I will have more then enough to do the rest of my trunk, sides of the car and possibly the roof when all is said and done. Awesome stuff...


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Nice work. Interesting spot for that distribution block on the console. My only concern there would be a tight fit when you mount the console back in but I imagine you've got that figured out. 

Took your route on my USB cable. 

Cheated though and just ran it to glove box. The DEH supplied cable looked kinda short from head unit all the way to the console cubby so 2 minutes to throw it in the glove box and call it done. 

damplifier deal. Might have to look into that. 

Air bag issue. That's my fear. Hopefully no code throwing once the seats are back in and the power is back up.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Nice work. Interesting spot for that distribution block on the console. My only concern there would be a tight fit when you mount the console back in but I imagine you've got that figured out.
> 
> Took your route on my USB cable.
> 
> ...


Well the best thing about that spot the center counsel there isn't hard mounted (it is up top but not down low) so there is some play and I have a good .5" of wiggle room as well. I probably could have done it better but it works. I many cases I may look into running the USB into the glove box. Luckly it seems as if it was just a loose connection. So far I haven't noticed the code anymore. We will see though when I drive it a little tomorrow.

Shipping kills on the Damp deal but the closer you are to SS the better. For me (Ohio) shipping was around $60 for UPS ground at the time of this post. Still worth it IMO









Day 5 Update:

Today was button up day as Tomorrow 98Civic and I are working on replacing the CMC

Day started off with sweeping the carpet:










I wasn't able to wash it as our carpet cleaner, even though it has a small head that would work, doesn't seem to suck the water up. So instead I just gave it a good sweep and when I can get some cleaner I will get things cleaned.

Once that was fairly clean I went ahead and placed it into the car:



















As you can see there are a few dirt stains. I then took a screw driver and tucked all the corners of the carpet under the plastic trim.

Next part was getting the seats back in:










Sorry about that shot had something on the lense which shows as that orangish glow. After this I got the backs back on and everything in this part of the car cleaned up.

Then it was time for the center counsel and front seats to go back in:










The dash and everything is still dirty. The plan is to get that cleaned up tonight.

Now on the driver side I did not replace the dead pedal as my tweeter is right above it and I'm sure reflections are crazy off of it. One thing I might have to adjust is the delay on my drivers seems as if the stage shifted more towards the driver side but still need to toss in a dedicated L/R/C tracks to determine if I need to shift anything.

Now you may ask why the hell I'm including this pic:










Well if you remember I painted the front bumper trim black and the H red. I'm looking to paint the H in the rear red and remove the "Ganley/Civic" emblem completely. Hopefully tonight

Here are some pics of the B stock Damp from SS:





























With the 40 pounder kit you may get full sheets, half sheets, pieces, etc but everything is usable and works just fine. Best thing is you do get 40 pounds worth of this stuff. I probably used right around 1/3 of this stuff.


The noise I had seems to have been fixed (accept the noise in tracks) which was a goal so redoing the ground on the HU helped dramatically. Anyway this basically ends the work on the car right now. I will get a new measurement on the drivers to see if things improved on the driver side with the dead pedal gone. Still lots to do.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

What's the latest on your tweet placement. Pillar job coming?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> What's the latest on your tweet placement. Pillar job coming?


Well I'm going to try tweeterless. I'm going to run AP RAM3's with the Ambience transducers and Mark (yes the Mark) is going to try and get these as close to on axis (center of car (rear dome light). A lot of people say NO but its a gamble I'm going with and if done right they should be sick as the drivers are more then capable of doing it.


So 

Two Dayton Audio Ultimax 15's in IB configuration 20hz to 50hz

Anarchy's (4 ohm version) in the doors playing 50hz to 250-1k (not to sure yet) then the AP's will handle the rest. Also if need be I can go with tweeters but they would be down low in the kicks. Not the best position but they would probably handle the really top end 8-10k up. Just depends

Plus this isn't going to be a full out competition vehicle. More of a show vehicle


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Got the H painted but the painters tape I used sucked balls and bleed through in area's. Pissed me off really. Also have to do a couple touch up areas places as I probably pulled the tape off a little to soon. Allowed for the cure time but it was still to fresh I guess. Anyway I may look into getting another stock H (if its not to expensive and paint it off the car and get rid of the one now. It looks to trashy up close. Not to my standards. Unlike the front one its a stick on type which makes it harder to make look right off the car. I may lack motivation at times and people who know me can agree. I just can't stand that issue though...

Will have to do more research on better painters tape. 

No pics as of yet. Heck this is basically my facial progression while taking the tape off:

 :worried: :uhoh2: :mean:  o:


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Lot's of progress, neat work. Love the transition of expressions on the smileys.

I hope you use tweeters in the final build. A wide bander is not a replacement for a teeter. Place the mid down low near the woofer and then mount the tweeters in pods on the pillars. Ideally both mids and tweets on the dash/pillars. 

Oh and I noticed the blacked out licence plate


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Lot's of progress, neat work. Love the transition of expressions on the smileys.
> 
> I hope you use tweeters in the final build. A wide bander is not a replacement for a teeter. Place the mid down low near the woofer and then mount the tweeters in pods on the pillars. Ideally both mids and tweets on the dash/pillars.
> 
> Oh and I noticed the blacked out licence plate


That one was for you lol. There is one thing I need to check as my center seems offset 4 to 5 inches or right in front of me and the passenger side is easy to locate. IIRC I still had two different setting on the 360.3 and when I dis connected the battery it may have switched. 

Driverside seems to far in and needs to go out. I need to check that out after work. It's bugging me now lol


Anyway here is a update from yesterday. Got the new cmc in and did a trans oil change. Thanks to 95 civic for the help. Hope you like your payment.

Anyway as far as a update for audio we figured out how we will mount the subs. Looks like we are doing 3 layers 2 support and 1 allowing the drivers to sit flush. As far as how we will mount it we figure angle iron. I have a good 6 to 7 in straight section on both sides which will allow use to tack weld directly to the cat and I will spray foam around the edge to seal the baffle. Not 100 percent on what finish I will look at doing. I have a lot of carpet but not to sure we can make it look good in the rear without a separate beauty panel. We will see. Plus I have to find a new source for getting wood. The cheapest place closed down.

Note sorry for any typos as I'm on my phone and auto correct may strike


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I would never have the patience to write that long a msg from the phone. Fat fingers don't help any with them tiny keyboards.

Close your eyes and listen to some music. Is the sound cohesive but just offset and in front of you? Or does it feel like the whole is being pulled apart and you can locate a left and right source of sound?

If its the former most likely you need to do L/R balance again. Draw an imaginary line from your rear view to the top of your dash. Play the PN tracks and get them centred on this line.

If its the later and the sound feels like its pulling apart, you probably have too much delay between your left and right side. Play only the mids then tweets only. Is the pull happening with both or only one? correct accordingly by reducing the delay between L/R.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I would never have the patience to write that long a msg from the phone. Fat fingers don't help any with them tiny keyboards.
> 
> Close your eyes and listen to some music. Is the sound cohesive but just offset and in front of you? Or does it feel like the whole is being pulled apart and you can locate a left and right source of sound?
> 
> ...


Ok I will check that out. I did not install my dead pedal so I'm sure my tweeters are probably off as it was right where my driver side tweeter is. Less reflection. It's a definite shift from before as I changed nothing other then the dead pedal. Before it was close might have been slightly off but not this bad.


Also seeing as of right now I have a 6th order bandpass box for my sub and how I measured was from the point where the ports exit. Now there is only a couple inches difference between my sub and passenger tweeter. Is that semi correct as far as measuring the sub as really I can't get to the driver unless I take the box apart. Which can be done by removing the port on the one side. See technically if I went from where the sub is located in the box my tweeter is farther. Also it's rear facing.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Measuring from the port is fine. The dead pedal could be the reason. Check things after you have re-installed it.

[edit] The issue could well be due to the dead panel. Also keep in mind that sometimes when we hear the setup day in and day out we don't notice some issue. Then if you take a 7-10 day break from hearing it, and go back something may instantly standout. A thing that you weren't noticing earlier. One of the pitfalls of tuning . But yeah, it will probably be one or the other.[edit]


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Download this app. Spend about 15-20 mts everyday playing with it. You can do it on any computer that has a decent speaker setup. You're basically training your ears with this app. You want to get to a point where you have 90%+ accuracy on selecting the cut/boost band. Start with the default +/- 6db boost/cuts which are easy to pick. 

Once you consistently hit 90% accuracy at +/- 6b then change the resolution to +/- 5db and so on. You want to get to a point where you have 90% accuracy at +/-1 db. You can also use headphones for this.

Harman How to Listen


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Measuring from the port is fine. The dead pedal could be the reason. Check things after you have re-installed it.
> 
> [edit] The issue could well be due to the dead panel. Also keep in mind that sometimes when we hear the setup day in and day out we don't notice some issue. Then if you take a 7-10 day break from hearing it, and go back something may instantly standout. A thing that you weren't noticing earlier. One of the pitfalls of tuning . But yeah, it will probably be one or the other.[edit]


I'd say it's the dead pedal.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You're probably right. How far are you from getting done with the install so that we can move back to tuning?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> You're probably right. How far are you from getting done with the install so that we can move back to tuning?


Oh we can tune. I'm looking at a month or so before the substage is updated and I haven't talked to Mark as of yet to see how he's getting along with the pillars. So couple months or so for that. So maybe around the new year I will be done with the drivers, etc...

Things are switching up at work, moving to second shift so I will have more time to tune. 

BTW thanks for that link. I will make sure to practice.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Great, so when you get a chance post up some response curves and describe a bit of what you're hearing, the good and the bad.

That app will help in two ways. Firstly it will help in differentiating pitch at 1/3oct over the 10 octaves i.e. difference between 500hz and 630hz or 4 and 5khz and so on. Next it will train the ears to pick differences at a finer resolution i.e. 1db vs 3db. 

I didn't have access to this when I started tuning by ear and it took me a good 3-4 years of going round in circles, chasing my tail and falling on my face, while trying to get intuitive with the eq. The app should cut that time by 60-70%. Then again you've been a musician so pitch sense will already be there to some extent.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Not really a audio update but I wanted to put this in

Last week I sent my tuner (Flashpro) to get upgraded to allow Bluetooth connection. Here are my initial thoughts:

This allows the user to display just about everything one would want while tuning, cruising, ect via bluetooth to a iOS or Android device. I know a few guys in the forums have looked into doing such things via different methods and when implemented right is quite cool to see real time information (secondary gauges) all in one simple to navigate, use, area. I really like that Hondata has come out with this addition and do have plans to use it to its full potential in the future. 


A couple things I personally would like to see added if possible of course:

Even though the App right now is quite good. I would like to be able to upload stored (flashpro can support two user added, a primary tune and a secondary tune which can be uploaded and stored on FP) tunes that are located on FP. Even the ability to upload any of the preset tunes that are located on FP. Also would like to be able to have the option, via button, to turn on/off dataloging (which right now can be done on the FP unit itself). It will make thing much simpler as I wouldn't have to lug out my laptop (not that its a chore anyway).

So hopefully in the future Hondata (or other people) will continue to add different features to the base App, if possible of course (other apps such as DashCommand, Torque, etc which have been tested. "Hondata Mobile supports the Elm 327 protocol, a text based datalogging protocol."

So it will be interesting how I will permanently mount the FP unit itself while allowing access to the usb input for updates, and uploading/downloading, dataloging. While still being able to access the buttons on the FP unit for dataloging purposes (as resolution is much higher over having the computer hooked up, hence why I would like to see the option to allow the app to engage/disengage this option over using the physical buttons on the unit). ATM I'm thinking of running the unit up towards my driver side fuse box and then running the usb cable to my soon to be center counsel area which I will use a Female to Female USB adapter to allow a nice clean look.

Now here is the current design look for the central dash:










Not to scale by any means. If I figured right by eye it would be very tight at the top with the controller and voltmeter unless I did some magic and reworked the screen on the controller and relocated the bulk of the unit somewhere else (possibly in the rear while extending the screen to the front of the car). 

Now this isn't fully set in stone as I'm not completely sure if everything will fit the way I would like (as seen above) or close to it and if I have everything I would like to have added there. The Temp controller is in the air atm as I'm not sure how extending the temperature prob will effect the accuracy of the unit. ATM I'm not to sure how I will implement the 360.3 Controller which is why it isn't added in the drawing (but the potential placement would be in the lower center portion bellow the temp controller, voltmeter and in between the switches and usb units). I want to make it so the knobs and the led's (which show what mode your in and what level +/- you are as it would be my volume control when using my Ipad as a source). May have to look into some custom work there to achieve the look I want which I'm completely up to doing as the potential and expectation for this is quite high.

Anyway this was just a little taste as to what I have planned in the near future.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

From what little I could get, you're planning to make a thingy that will allow you to interface with the flashpro to see how the engine is working........dude it's about how the music sounds not the engine


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> From what little I could get, you're planning to make a thingy that will allow you to interface with the flashpro to see how the engine is working........dude it's about how the music sounds not the engine


Oh I no make. It's already made. I would like to see other features added. 

Why can't I have both? Show car means good looks and not stock yet be different. 

Wait till I get an exhaust and headers. Bad for sg. Ya when the car is running but I don't plan to compete because I want to beat everyone and there mother. I want to have fun and enjoy the hobbies I have. One goal just happens to be able to turn the car into a show car . Performance, visuals, and sound are key imho. 

Kinda why I'm painting what I'm painting and doing what I'm doing. It's fun. I enjoy hearing and seeing the improvements in the audio. I'm just not jumping ahead of myself as my substage is changing, hopefully next weekend. Hopefully in a couple months the front stage is changing.

BTW I am practicing my listening skills. Have a ways to go. Could be my headphones and my lack of hearing in the 500hz range but I'm dedicated. Someday I hope to help people around my area learn. Just have some patience.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Oh I no make. It's already made. I would like to see other features added.
> 
> Why can't I have both? Show car means good looks and not stock yet be different.
> 
> ...


I'm fidgety cause my bit10 crapped out a few weeks back. My processing is down to the p80, which is a major come down both in terms of dsp and hence the level of sound you can get. Your thread got me all fired up again and I kinda looked to it for my daily fix of tweaking. My post was half in jest anyways. It's your install, go with your priorities.

That Harmon tool is cool isn't it? But yeah it takes a while. It's a bit like doing PC exercises. Lot's of effort initially for little or no measurable gains. But if you stick with it, you reach a point where bam! now you can measure the benefits. 500hz is like the volume control for your mid-range.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I'm fidgety cause my bit10 crapped out a few weeks back. My processing is down to the p80, which is a major come down both in terms of dsp and hence the level of sound you can get. Your thread got me all fired up again and I kinda looked to it for my daily fix of tweaking. My post was half in jest anyways. It's your install, go with your priorities.
> 
> That Harmon tool is cool isn't it? But yeah it takes a while. It's a bit like doing PC exercises. Lot's of effort initially for little or no measurable gains. But if you stick with it, you reach a point where bam! now you can measure the benefits. 500hz is like the volume control for your mid-range.


Ya had to take a hearing test and everything for work so I forget how bad it was. It's within normal hearing loss range but IIRC it was my worst area. 

Ya learning what certain freq points are as far as while the songs playing is the fun part. It takes some time but once I figure out what to listen for I can hear it much better. Its interesting on the ones I miss as it sounds so much different then what it looks like lol

That sucks. I wouldn't know what to do if I lost my 360.3. Granted I have the 80 prs which I could kinda get away with. Kinda

Hey I appreciate the help and hopefully I can continue to provide you with some sustenance lol


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Sorry no pics atm... Will get them up as soon as I can after work

Received the AP RAM-3a with AT in the mail today. They look really good. While taking pictures I am going to do a few tests on them and give them a quick listen. Getting really excited to see what the pillars will look like.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Received my Audible Physics RAM-3a with AT this past week. I ran these through DATS to check and make sure everything is all good and was able to play some music through these using the DATS usb unit. These weren't very loud (as at max they saw half a volt) but was able to tell how well these will sound.

Anyway here are the pics (Sorry for the mess, its my wiring station):










Comes well protected:










Sexy phase plug:



















Here is a little shot of the spider:










Here is the DATS info I pulled on these:










*Please note:* This is a completely new driver, no play time on them.


Now my plan is to solder 12 gauge wire to the speaker terminals (probably at a length of 4') and at the end I will solder on XT60 connectors at the end. As I have started to do I will add Tech Flex to these as well. I will also wire in parallel the AT's as well. I won't solder these until I know placement.

Also tonight I plan to re-do a little wiring in the trunk as well.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update: tomorrow I'm grabbing the first of two Alpine PDX F4 4 ch amp. Along with quite a few other things.

The plan is to 

Bridge the Anarchys and then the APs will be on there own amp.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

awesome. the ap/anarchy combo should be sick. AP mids are such a nice speaker, I have enjoyed every model ive heard


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> awesome. the ap/anarchy combo should be sick. AP mids are such a nice speaker, I have enjoyed every model ive heard


Thanks. I'm very excited about things.

Update:

Got quite a few things in including this bad boy (crappy pic ahead, may want to look over it as it may or may not give you a seizure) :










I will get better pics soon. This amp will be for the AP's. I will be grabbing the PDX F6 for the mids and that will be bridged. These will be stacked and eventually I will be looking at replacing my mono amp.

Initial impression:

These are very nice looking amps. Solid parts and a lot less plastic to the amp. The Gain/Crossover knobs feel solid (not cheap feeling, stiff in a good way and with the crossover it clicks at every marked point making it easy to match between amps).

Birth sheet shows 120Wrms @ 4 ohms @ 14.4V... Alpine rated at 100Wrms

Wish the HP/LP/OFF switch was a little beefier, its one thing that feels slightly cheap on the unit. 

Love the independent/removable plugs which made things really easy and if done right will make things look extremely clean. Will be interesting to see how these stack together. Anyway haven't had much listening time on this so can't comment there. I may look at doing a basic review on the amp if people would like one done.

Not sure when I will be able to get the F6 as I will, at some point here, have a bill for the A pillar work by Mark.

If the gentleman ^^^^ would stop taking all Marks time. No seriously I'm more then happy waiting as I know this will look and sound amazing.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

nice...20rms over rated, cant argue with that. Those are nice looking amps for sure.

And dont blame me for taking Marks time! I havent harassed him in a few weeks in person, just thru text/phone lol.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> nice...20rms over rated, cant argue with that. Those are nice looking amps for sure.
> 
> And dont blame me for taking Marks time! I havent harassed him in a few weeks in person, just thru text/phone lol.


LOL!!!!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Have some interesting developments with the amp atm... Noticed it getting hot (warm to the touch) and getting noise on all channels. I'm going to try a couple different things as it seemed to only happen (the noise) when I plugged my laptop in. I'm using a external usb soundcard which goes into the amp. Using a 1200W power supply adjusted to 14.5V

I'm going to up my power/ground wire gauge and see if the excess heat (which this amp shouldn't have much at the power I'm running). Also going to change out where I plug into the socket (running off a power strip). 

Seeing the noise started after plugging in the computer (different plug/source altogether and I didn't notice the noise before plugging it in and I was right at the speakers) seems to me the noise is ground loop related. The heat of the amp on the other hand is concerning. We will see if bigger gauge wire and new plug location helps. 

Keep in mind this is on my bench testing area (I do this just in case Issues happen) The speakers I use are the TriTrix TL from PE (8 ohms nominal) on ch 1/2 and Two Exodus Anarchy's in the Tapped Horn config wired to 4 ohms nominal. Gains set by ear at max volume off the soundcard. Listening at less then 1/3 volume when this happened.

I did test using a 3.5mm to RCA out of my Ipad and the noise, while greatly reduced, was still there BUT I noticed when I touched the chassis of the PS the noise increased slightly. I have another supply I can use and a Extra car battery as well. Will test it out tomorrow and hope I didn't screw the amp up (somehow) but I'm leaning towards outside sources over Amp


EDIT:

Not the amp, Ground Loop


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Here are a couple pics I took of the amp/room setup (nothing impressive, lighting was bad so had to use flash, No like) 

Amp pics (yes it has a metallic look to it. Looks really good in person)




























Here is the shot of the PS. Fully adjustable voltage level up to 18V. Yes I want to correct myself. I stated earlier its a 1200W PS. It's a 1080W rated supply.










TriTrix Kit:










These sound awesome and get loud. Staging is insane in the configuration in my room. L/R limits are as long as the room itself. Quite fun to listen to in the dark


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

I think I saw a thread on those TriTrix. How much do you have in them? Any link to it?

Is that an RC battery charger power supply? Turnigy does a lot of RC stuff.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

May I?
TriTrix - Parts Express Ships Fast and Ships Free.
... Dayton kit.

I'd love to do their RS722CK kit


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> May I?
> TriTrix - Parts Express Ships Fast and Ships Free.
> ... Dayton kit.
> 
> I'd love to do their RS722CK kit


Thanks Babs

Ya there kits are truly amazing. A lot of work went into designing them and the outcome shows this. More then worth the pricing. 




casey said:


> I think I saw a thread on those TriTrix. How much do you have in them? Any link to it?
> 
> Is that an RC battery charger power supply? Turnigy does a lot of RC stuff.


Ya you can really tell the amount of work that went into designing these as it truly shows in the finished product. There not completely done as you can see but at some point here I will finish them up. 

Yes its a RC PS (advertised as one) but I like the fact it has adjustable voltage up to 18 volts and down to 13.8V. Also has 3 separate 10A (switched, independent of the main 60A unit) plug ins in which I can add different items to as well. Such as my charger for my flight packs. 

Has all the protection I would want: Over-current, overheat (has two fans for cooling), and I believe it has short protection as well (doesn't state it on the webpage). 

It's quite big and heavy but for what I wanted it to do it fits the bill. 

If one wants I can crack it open and show the guts. 

Here is a Link:

Turnigy 1080W 100~120V Power Supply (13.8V~18V - 60amp)

Overall I like it. Haven't had issues with it. Comes in the 120V version or there is the 240V version for those over the pond.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Purchased the second of two amps. Nabbed the Alpine PDX-F6 for the mids. 

Also a couple items I also purchased for some nice lighting effects when all is said and done:

UV cold cathod
Red UV reactive techflex 
Smoke translucent spray paint 

I'm going to have to redo the false floor anyway for the new sub stage and I have a fairly big sheet of Acrylic I'm not using atm so decided some UV reactive wiring and maybe some custom paint on the plastic trim of the PDX will look really cool. I'm using the smoke look to hide a lot of the purplish light while hoping the color pop will show through. 

That reminds me I need to call Mark and see when he expects (time frame) to start work on the pillars.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Spoke with Mark and waiting on getting vehicle to do up the pillars. Also received the pdx yesterday and birthed out to 168wrms. Rated at 150. After work I will see if I can get some good pics of the amps. 

Also spoke with 98 civic and we have plans to start the new substage build. Gettin really excited for the build. It's our first ever ib install.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

sounds like everything is in the works, hope it comes together how you want. Im ready to see the pillars Mark comes up with


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> sounds like everything is in the works, hope it comes together how you want. Im ready to see the pillars Mark comes up with


Ya same here. We're waiting on car availability atm. Also waiting on some extra Pillars. Turns out I can get them cheaper up here and have then shipped directly to him for less then what his local dealer asks. So he's going to ask around a little bit and will get back with me as to what he found out.

I've got a couple images in my mind as to how they will look (heck I even dreamed of them lol)

Anyway here are the pics of the new amp:



















These are packaged like a champ:





































Money shot:











Not to mention this:











Now I'm quite glade I'm going to be able to showcase these (as they are truly beautiful amps) and if all plans go well it will look pretty sweet. Now a few posts back I mention having UV lighting and UV reactive techflex. I am looking at possibly painting the plastic trim piece on the amp (can be seen above, gloss black trim ring) in a UV reactive paint. Should look really cool when the lights come on. I'm going to play with that idea for a little bit

The lights will be on a switch so most the time they will be off and come on when showing the car, ect...


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is a general picture of what I'm looking at doing. I haven't decided on whether to etch something on the plexi or not. 










The plexi itself will have a coat or two of Translucent Black (smoke look) as I don't want a lot of the violet (from the blacklight) showing through. I'm looking for more of a accent of wiring and amp itself. Kind of why I'm possibly going to paint the plastic trim piece on the amp.

Issue I run into there is I like the Gloss black and I can get UV reactive Clear (invisible without UV light but once on it glows a certain color). Unfortunately with the gloss its advised not to use of shiny/gloss finishes. I can repaint the trim, which isn't a issue but to make things pop/color correctly it would have to be white.

So this means it will show White when UV off (which isn't the first color I'd choose) but when on it will be Red (color I want)

UV paint isn't exactly cheap so I'm opening this up to members here as to which way I should go. Keep her as she is or look at making it custom looking.


Also should I look at carpeting this or maybe look into wrapping then in vinyl? Carpet will be easy but if I vinyl I will have to do everything to match.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Look at what came in. 

Excuse the excess violet. Doesn't look that bad in person. I'm hoping the tinted plexi will cut down on the ambient light. May try using the camera as it has a uv filter on it. See if that helps and may look into a clear UV film. As I wear glasses and can tell the difference between on and off (they have some UV blocking ability). Also it matches quite well with the techflex I got as well. When done should look really cool. Gives that nice pop I'm looking for.










Here is a little preview as to what it will look like on the amp. Don't worry, business like during the day, party at night.











Just to reiterate:

This paint (Lacquer based) dries clear but when subject to a blacklight the color is evident. It is ONLY going on the trim piece of the amps top portion. I may look into spraying this on over painting as I'm not to sure how the brush strokes will show. I will test on another piece of plastic first. Anyway this gives you a fairly good idea what I'm looking at doing.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Big update:

My fingers hurt, new sub stage in (made one hell of a push to get it to this point) and I'm sure as he'll to tired to post any more then this. Stay tuned for updates throughout the afternoon.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Well yesterday was the day to start the new sub stage build. I've decided to go IB with two Ultimax 15's powered (for now, see later on as to why) by my hifonics BRZ 1200.1

Started off the day getting things prepped for install










Then the fun part began:










This part took some time. In and out of the car it went until it fit nice and snug:










Time for some primer to help seal up the MDF:










Then there were the other layers:










Unfortunately we couldn't find a better circle jig so we decided to make one:










Other layers laid out and cut:










Now this is where we kinda started to really move as we were under a time constraint so pics of the gluing process, etc are not included. I glued the layers along with screws. This also includes spray foaming large holes to the front of the car and using deadender to cover other holes as well. 

Once together and dried I painted it again with the primer and then it went into the car. My friend placed Duct tape where the spray foam would be so in the future I can save my metal and carpet:










With the help of my friends dad we welded some angle iron to the car and then added a couple bolts to make a even better contact to the car. Then some more spray foam. What isn't shown is on the other side it is taped off so the foam stays where I want it.










Then it was time to clean up a little and get the drivers in. Can someone say OCD issues (turns out a little QC problems with this one (some mesh was messed up as well, not pictured)) 




















Both drivers in and looking good:











Started off wiring this to 2 ohms and me being a newb (not really just tired) thought the bass boost was the gain :huh:

After re wiring to .5 ohm I finally got to looking at the amp and was like. You idiot, that's not the gain.

So after checking everything ohm'd out right and phase was correct it was time to get some power on these. After listening some I noticed a strange noise and got to looking and turns out the baffle flexes (drivers barely near total throw) some. So needless to say I'm going to have to reinforce the rear with a metal frame.

So far I am very impressed with these. I'm not even close to maxing these things out power wise (which turns out is a good thing cause the subs would literally rip the baffle in half otherwise. Output is awesome and the precision of IB is insane. 

IB for life


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

very nice! Crazy they are flexing the baffle that much. Looks like you made it pretty solid


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> very nice! Crazy they are flexing the baffle that much. Looks like you made it pretty solid


Ya I know and its not EVEN CLOSE to max movement either. Three layers (3/4 inch) glued like mad, spray foam and the fact it was wedged in there as well and it still flexes (right around a 1/8th inch or so in the middle).

I'm very surprised how well I did sealing things off from the front as well. I'm sure I have a few area's to hit but it doesn't sound half bad at all. Gets low with ease. Tuning is off (subs are now, not the furthest driver from me)

So this means I will probably have to get 1/2 inch or so square tubing and make a supporting baffle out of it. Making sure to support the middle part of the baffle the most (where its weakest atm). Still have to make some finishing pieces in the front to clean that up (not sure if I will fiberglass something or use MDF) the front part. 

Also going to talk with Mark and see if he would like to (at a later date) do up my finishing touches back there. I want to completely hide the battery, redo the false floor with the updates in the above posts. Then do some fiberglass work up front as well. Also will wrap/carpet the baffle to match the rear as well. Hard part is other then the subs this isn't coming out. 

So this means I'm heading down that way at some point here so we should get together and take a listen to each others setups. 

Also am looking for a .5 ohm stable 2k sub amp as well keeping SQ in mind as well. Doesn't have to be .5 ohm either. Can be 2 ohm. 

Thought about dual ZED Minotaur's (one per driver)



Got some wire pants, techflex, banana plugs and some more heat shrink so next weekend I can clean up the subs wiring and look at getting the new amps into the car.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Turns out the above idea wouldn't work as far as the two sides. I'm going to have to revise my idea and will have some more (wonderful) paint artwork for you guys tomorrow.

I'm serious on the subs amp situation though. My BRZ isn't even touching the capabilities of the subs. Currently SSF is set right around 25hz (pretty happy with this, may notch it up a tad, closer to 28hz when subs break in, or so. Haven't scoped the gain yet (need to solidify the baffle first as I lose a lot of energy with it flexing).

So here are the amps I'm looking at:

Zapco Z-3k wired to 2 ohms
Crescendo Audio BC2k wired to .5 ohm
IA40.1 wired to 2 ohms

Also possibly look at 2 Zed Minotaur amps but am not sure if I can get the right wiring for the power I'm looking at. Give or take 2k roughly.

Keep in mind my power will be updated to handle 2k with ease. Starting with new alt, larger gauge wiring to rear and up front. 

I figure at Max 1600Wrms for the subs (as to if they take that much or even more, just depends on other factors). Definitely have a potential beast here (not huge on numbers but overall) as I'm just tickling them lol


EDIT:

Sorry didn't post what I was thinking about fixing the flex. I'm looking at probably 1 inch square tubing frame mounted via bolts from the rear in which I would have to hide somehow from the front as it would look like Frankenstein otherwise (even though this is looking to be one of those). The idea was to make a wooden frame topped with frosted acrylic in which inside would sit RGB led strips. I definitely want to light these guys up when all is said and done as in person they look amazing. Anyway you will see more when I post up the paint design


EDIT: 

My thoughts didn't look good on paper. I'm going to have to see what 98Civic and I can come up with as far a beautifying the panel.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

If you're looking at Zapco and a 2 ohm load, I'd suggest looking at:

1. ZX500.2...2000W @ 2 ohm

or

2. a pair of Z-1KDs and use one amp per sub or you can bridge the amps together for 1700W @ 2 ohm

Trust me, I've been looking. Very tempted since I like my amps to match and now being on the Team.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

papasin said:


> If you're looking at Zapco and a 2 ohm load, I'd suggest looking at:
> 
> 1. ZX500.2...2000W @ 2 ohm
> 
> ...


Thanks I didn't even think about those. Thats very true

The pair of Z-1KDs looks very tempting. I could easily fit two of those down bellow and stack them.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm serious on this guys:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/168187-ib-4-life-vinyl-contest-possible-prize-winner.html

Pass it along


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Little update:

After adding more spray foam to key areas the low end performance has improved quite the bit. Flex of the baffle muds up the sound and we have plans to get that fixed sometime soon soon. 

As far as how the tune is going. Haven't messed with it much since the switch as I will have to redo the ta measurments as if my eyes are not lying my subs are no longer the furthest driver from me... so staging is off between subs and mids. It's looking like my passenger tweeter is the furthest. 

But me being the idiot I don't recall recording my measurments from last time. Kinda a pain in the butt to do alone.

Also I probably won't get heavy into the tune until I get the pillars in and some better beef into the doors. Nothing against the Dayton I have now, just don't SEM to like my setup. On the other hand o know the Anarchys do. Can't wait.

OH btw, also working on figuring out why I get chassis ground through my equipment even though my dedicated chassis ground is disconnected from the battery. Audio should all be on a single circuit. All grounded to battery. Only thing I can think of is its grounding through the hu maybe (antenna, is externally amped)

All I can say is it concerns me as I don't need my equipment to become chassis ground


I should be able to do some math to figure distances. That's the hope... shame so full of shame.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Been in talks with Mike Singer for a new alt. I've decided to go with a 240a alt. Definitely WAY more then I need, want to keep the amount of batteries down, but didn't feel 180a would be enough if I went another route in the future or adding some things. 

Anyway I'm having it powder coated Black and bypass the stock regulation system (it has a 1-2 second delay between switching the alt to HO mode or LO mode, more hindrance then anything)

The alt is a 6 phase Hairpin style that is fully plug and play along with direct bolt in which is nice. Only thing I need to do is grab a slightly smaller belt.


Also a little update for my plan tomorrow. Seeing I will have the amps to give the Anarchys the power they want I will tare out the planet audio amp I have in there now and get wiring and things all techflexed and set up for the alpine listed in my sig. Plus remove the Dayton mids I have in there and get the Anarchys back in. Then get started on setting up TA. Will post up progress as it happens. I'm really getting excited for this A pillar build. I should be hearing from Mark in the next few months. Last time we talked I was 3rd on the list.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Good deal, can't wait to see the new alternator when it arrives.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:


Got confirmation from Mike and the Alt has been started. Also got the amps installed and functioning. And I will emphasis functioning. I've got the mids bridged right now (Anarchy's are not in yet) and with gain all the way down the current drivers don't like the power to much. Didn't take pics as its a complete mess right now. I will have to decide how I want the amps orientated as in the current config power/speaker/RCA's are to jumbled together and I am picking up noise. That could be the fact these do accept balanced RCA input so will try that. I know the BRZ can accept it as it has a balanced plug but is not RCA form, I'm not sure if it accepts it in RCA form. I will know right away if it doesn't.

Also any tuning I have had has been deleted and I'm at the Zero point as far as that goes as well. So it sounds really bad. Only thing I did do was add .33ms of delay on the subs which helped bring the bass more up front

So on the docket for tomorrow is:

1) Remove Daytons and put Anarchy's in (for now Crossed 70hz-2500/2800hz). Recheck gains and if need be de-bridge the mids.

2) Measure for TA and set up starting point

3) Balance L/R

4) Start EQ work (time permitting)


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

It's a sad day guys. My father put my Anarchy's away and proceeded to place them on top of each other and this happened:










It completely separated the cone from the basket. I'm going to talk with Erich and see if he could recone this one while I grab another pair. The other one that was on top of this one seems to be good to go but I don't want to mix and match a new/old one. 


SOOOO... Everything is on hold again till I can get the replacements

The only thing I can do is TA, which won't change much between the swapped drivers


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Current TA measurement

LT: 47.5 in = 0.73 ms
LMR: 43 in = 1.06 ms
RT: 57.5 in = 0 ms
RMR: 55 in = 0.18 ms

Sub(s): 52 in= 0.40 ms

This is for noting purposes.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Ordered the new Anarchy's. Now its the waiting game once again.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm going to try this ta setup. I have to guess final distancES so I will see how this sounds.

Known distance to obstruction

Lt= 46 in
lm= 41 in
rt= 56 in
rm= 53in

Subs= 46 in to baffle face

No2 with a estimate to center of voice coil

Lt= 47 in
lm= 45 in
rt= 57
Rm= 55 in

Subs= 54

Delays being

Lt= 0.73
lm= .88
rt = 0.15
rm= 0.22

Reason I'm looking at my measurementschool is my passenger side mid seems to be slightly strong vs the driver side. Or i should say slightly out of phase still. Seems to be shifted slightly off center. Tweeters are golden as for a starting point. I will A/B these two measurements and see if things improve.


Also Sqnut. With having two subs how should I tackle that measurment. I don't have it wired for a L/R setup on the amp so adding delay to the separate subs isnt a option. Am I just have the length to the center of 5he two.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Also Sqnut. With having two subs how should I tackle that measurment. I don't have it wired for a L/R setup on the amp so adding delay to the separate subs isnt a option. Am I just have the length to the center of 5he two.


Measure the two distances and take the average. That should work for the subs.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Measure the two distances and take the average. That should work for the subs.


Ok the distance between the two are about a inch off from my ear to the baffle iirc. So with that knowledge I'm looking at 54.5 inches then.

Equates to .18ms delay on the subs

This is where being able to alter/tune withough a laptop would nice. Will try this out when I get home.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> I'm going to try this ta setup. I have to guess final distancES so I will see how this sounds.
> 
> Known distance to obstruction
> 
> ...


You're time aligning to the direct sound only, don't worry about reflections for now. As long as you measure the same point on each speaker you're ok. You can get in the ball park and then tweak the last bit by ear. 

Since you have measured all speakers at VC lets take those readings. based on that the delays work out to:

LT 0.74 ms
LM 0.88 ms
RT 0 ms
RM 0.15 ms
Sub: 0.22 ms

The readings are pretty much what you have except on the RT and RM your readings are different. Since the RT is the furthest speaker the delay will be 0. Try out the above and see if the staging is more centred.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> You're time aligning to the direct sound only, don't worry about reflections for now. As long as you measure the same point on each speaker you're ok. You can get in the ball park and then tweak the last bit by ear.
> 
> Since you have measured all speakers at VC lets take those readings. based on that the delays work out to:
> 
> ...


hmm typed that wrong. I listened to that setup and it sounded off as far as staging goes. So I'm like, I will remeasure to make sure I hit the same points and turns out I was off. 

RT= 59 in
LT= 48 in
RM= 56 in
LM= 45 in

Sub (average) 50.5 inches

Delay

RT= 0 ms
LT= 0.8 ms
RM= 0.22 ms
LM= 1.02 ms

Sub (average)= 0.62 ms

Now listening to Lorde- Glory and Gore it sounds the best as far as staging goes. Played through Ipad > Pure I20> Digital out> 360.3 > D/A > Amps


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Small snag:

Have to tare out my center counsel as one of my DC/DC converters is shorting. Getting noise through my speakers when using my hand brake. 

Feels like it may be a loose connection. Will see tomorrow sometime

btw Anarchy's should be here tomorrow, well today


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Poor Anarchy's ;(

Looking good otherwise! ^^


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## 0nbagz (Oct 7, 2014)

Looks grate mate.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Poor Anarchy's ;(
> 
> Looking good otherwise! ^^





0nbagz said:


> Looks grate mate.


Thanks guys. 

Update:

Through the magic of the internet I was able to work some slight of hand and transform this:










Into this masterpiece of metal and moving parts:











More to come. I will be working on getting these back into the car, fix my center counsel area and see whats shorting, then work on tuning and maybe some wire management.

I haven't heard anything from Erich as far as a drop in re-cone for the other Anarchy so I have message (FixMySpeaker) to see if David Moore could work some magic and do up a custom midbass driver using the Anarchy platform.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Thank God for these Anarchy's. Don't get me wrong the Daytons were nice but Lacked (at least in my setup) in the mid-bass area. With the Anarchy's having the correct power they are loving it. Authority out the wazzu. Substage blends well now and there doesn't seem to be the null between the mids/sub crossover. Can't wait to see how they do as strictly midbass 

Something I didn't picture was I soldered on leads for the Anarchy's. Twisted and techflexed the wire as well. Speaker baffles are getting a little wore out but as long as I don't keep taking speakers out I will be fine. Doors are solid as hell. Just need to fix the rattles in the headliner. Rattles everywhere





One week down for the Alt build. Wednesday I will message Mike Singer and remind him to take some pics of the parts before assembly. I asked if he would provide me some and he has been kind enough to do so. Just have to remind him.

Oh also ordered 24' of 1x1 inch 14 gauge A513 Steel square structural tubing to build the bracing for the baffle. Still need to get the bolts, washers, nuts but that will be the day we build up the bracing. This thing when we are done with it should be solid as a rock. The plan is to have the subwoofer wiring behind the beauty panel and all you will see is the individual leads coming out to the subs leads. Once done it will be uber clean. Goal is to still be able to utilize the trunk some. Planing on taking a week in the spring/summer and make my way down there and work on it. Hopefully he would be cool enough to let me work with him on it. Maybe even see some of the DIYMA guys who live down that way.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Talked with Mike Singer today and he has informed me that the outer casing is going for powdercoating tomorrow. He should be having pics for me soon here when he gets the casing back.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is a drawing I did up of how I'm looking to route the wiring/amp layout. Of course I'm not 100% sure which route I should take on the subs Amp though. I'd like to have the Zapco's but I don't think I can stack them and still clear the false floor.

Here is how I am looking at doing the viewing window/fan setup. Of course this isn't to scale


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

So its time to repair the chassis ground in the engine bay. The one I had replaced as said earlier was loose and I couldn't get it tight enough to make a solid connection. 

So its time to relocated this chassis to engine ground.










The next part was where to relocate this ground to. I did fine a mounting bolt easily accessible on the stock alt casing which I figured would be a really good grounding point. 










Ok so now I know the route I want to take and its time to make up the new ground run. So I had some 1/0 Bullz Audio (OFC) wiring and I had gotten some 1/0 ring terminals a while back here so here is what I came up with.










Once I got routeing, both ends tightened I painted over the chassis end to hopefully prevent more rusting.











BTW I did grind down the chassis ground point to expose the metal. It was completely rusted over so this should improve efficiency within the electrical system getting rid of that rust.


I did make the ground cable a little long as I'm potentially accounting a difference in the new HO alt I am getting from Mike Singer. Which BTW informed me the alt should be finalized by the end of this week. So either this coming weekend or the one after I will be meeting with him to pay the rest for the alt and pick it up. Going to be a busy week at work for me so we will see if I can grab it this weekend.

I really need to get my engine bay cleaned and it would be awesome if I could pull everything and do a complete repaint of the engine bay, engine, etc... Really needs it. Getting rusty and nasty looking


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Got around to doing some L/R adjustments. Please Note *NO SUB* for either graph. Here are the results:

Baseline:










After 1-5 adjustments:










I'm not completely done with this but I ran out of battery power for the laptop. Can't do it while charging or I get mad noise out of the soundcard. Thats fine. The above was the result of 2 hours of work. Didn't touch much on the tweeter other then overall levels as they closely match each other. I am one step ahead of whats above. I dropped the overall tweeter level on the driver side by 2.5 db along with dropping 250hz, and 125hz on the driver side and 2khz on the passenger side to get them a little closer. 

Also this isn't showing my drop on the crossover of the sub/mid to 65hz.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

definitely getting it dialed in, looks like your adjustments are getting L/R in the same direction.

Hows it sound?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> definitely getting it dialed in, looks like your adjustments are getting L/R in the same direction.
> 
> Hows it sound?


Needs eq 

Lower range on the tweeter is strong. I need to tame that down a bit. Upper harmonics of certain female sin gers is a little to bright as well. A lot of this I have tamed temporarily with the 80prs. 

The re are still a couple places I need to dial in more as I can hear it wonder slightly so I figure re a couple more revisions and this step will be out of the way. TA I feel is close but it's something I'd like to get with someone on as to what needs adjusted. Sub feels to me slightly off, front stage seems solid other then the adjustment hear and there. Sub could be more of a blending issue over anything else. 

Get into contact with Shawn and see when he's down my way again and see if he could help me dial that in more.

Depth is great though. I can really get the sense of back up singers actually bein behind the lead singer.


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

BTW sqnut.

Chapman doesn't sound like a guy. That's a plus


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Alright ladies and gentleman, boys and girls. We have here our main attraction. Exhibit A:


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Sexy 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Update:
> 
> After 1-5 adjustments:
> 
> ...


Keep both tweeters at ~ - 5/6 db, not sure where you have them. I find it better to keep L/R levels the same and then just use the eq. 

Cut at 1.25 and 1.6 khz, cut like 4-6db. Cutting 1.25 will make sound less grainy (cleaner) and 1.6 should take some of the bite of your tweeters / overall sound. Cut 2khz by 2 db or so, 2khz is giving you dynamics but it's also making the sound sharp and mettalic. Cut 2.5 and 4khz by about 4db. Cutting 4 khz will also help in cleaning up the chaffy sound. Cut 3khz by 1-2db. Now try a 2-3db cut at 6-8khz, cut 8 more than 6. This is to clear the vocals of any shouty touches, again you're looking for better clarity. 

How does it sound? 




Beckerson1 said:


> BTW sqnut.
> 
> Chapman doesn't sound like a guy. That's a plus


 good that means 160-300 is fine. Although.............see what happens when you cut 200 a bit and raise 300......seeing how we have cut 6-8khz above.

How does it sound?


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Will adjust here in 30 min. Need to charge the laptop a little bit. One big issue I've noticed more and more is how off my subs are from my mids. Pulls my stage way back.

Also will drop the gain on the tweeters slightly. I'm just doing those by ear and seems to be a notch to high when I push the volume. Also hate my Hifonics. Ya its not rated down to .5 so when it sees any drop in voltage it clips to hell. I'm swapping to 2 ohms tomorrow.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> One big issue I've noticed more and more is how off my subs are from my mids. Pulls my stage way back.


Where are you crossing the sub/mid? Try crossing ~ 60hz and put the sub on steep slopes. Play only the sub and the far mid. Play with the delay till you're hearing the entire low end (including what the sub is playing) from the far mid. Next play the sub and near mid and do the same. That will get both mids in phase with the the sub and with each other. 

Are the subs IB now? The peak in the low end is ~80-90hz, this should normally be ~40-50hz. Not sure whats causing that. If you're running a ported box it could be the box, maybe it's a high xover point. I can't tell which from the graphs.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Keep both tweeters at ~ - 5/6 db, not sure where you have them. I find it better to keep L/R levels the same and then just use the eq.
> 
> Cut at 1.25 and 1.6 khz, cut like 4-6db. Cutting 1.25 will make sound less grainy (cleaner) and 1.6 should take some of the bite of your tweeters / overall sound. Cut 2khz by 2 db or so, 2khz is giving you dynamics but it's also making the sound sharp and mettalic. Cut 2.5 and 4khz by about 4db. Cutting 4 khz will also help in cleaning up the chaffy sound. Cut 3khz by 1-2db. Now try a 2-3db cut at 6-8khz, cut 8 more than 6. This is to clear the vocals of any shouty touches, again you're looking for better clarity.
> 
> ...


Doing the suggested changes above made everything MUCH clearer (cleaner). Listening to Evanescence the lead singer used to sound like sher was in a tube (like I said above the upper harmonics were really present and now that has tamed down a lot. 

Depth has improved a lot as well as clarity. Everything seems to mess a lot better. Think of it like a target and you shooting arrows at it. The focus point was like a 8" concentration. Now its a lot like 5". Much more focused.

I will note I changed the crossover on the mids from 65hz @ 24 to 50hz @ 36hz (slightly steeper helped clean the low end up a good bit). Also flipped the subs polarity which MASSIVELY helped shoot the focus up front. Still needs some adjustment but has improved. Changed crossover to 50hz slope the same 24db

This cleaned up the bass a lot as well. IB doesn't care for the highs. But the low end is insane. Very strong.



Changing 200 and 300 like stated helped reinforce the low midrange as well. Chapmen, while still not sounding like a guy, has more authority when she hits the lower notes in Fast Car.

I will listen to this change and make notes for changes. I can already tell some Piano notes are Flat (thick). I need to listen a little bit to figure roughly the frq range that needs adjusted.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Where are you crossing the sub/mid? Try crossing ~ 60hz and put the sub on steep slopes. Play only the sub and the far mid. Play with the delay till you're hearing the entire low end (including what the sub is playing) from the far mid. Next play the sub and near mid and do the same. That will get both mids in phase with the the sub and with each other.
> 
> Are the subs IB now? The peak in the low end is ~80-90hz, this should normally be ~40-50hz. Not sure whats causing that. If you're running a ported box it could be the box, maybe it's a high xover point. I can't tell which from the graphs.


No sub in the above graph


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> No sub in the above graph


My bad, you mentioned that in your post. Cut 80hz by 3-4db.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> I can already tell some Piano notes are Flat (thick). I need to listen a little bit to figure roughly the frq range that needs adjusted.


If the piano sounds fat and dull, the suggested cut at 80 should help. Cut a db or so at 125hz. To add crispness to the piano attack raise 4/5khz by about 0.5db. Try raising both by 0.5db.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Hanatsu said:


> Sexy
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


Agreed... Very sexy alt.. Beckerson wait until you put that sucker in there. It's in about the worst place on the Si motors. I think you gotta pull bumper and front brace and a bunch of other crap. Just doing my big three on my FA5, I thought I was going to just sit down and cry trying to just get to the terminal (being the non-mechanic).


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Agreed... Very sexy alt.. Beckerson wait until you put that sucker in there. It's in about the worst place on the Si motors. I think you gotta pull bumper and front brace and a bunch of other crap. Just doing my big three on my FA5, I thought I was going to just sit down and cry trying to just get to the terminal (being the non-mechanic).


I'm going to take out the IM as I'm going to mod it and paint it flat black to closely match the alt. That should give me all the room I need. At least I hope so lol.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Can someone explain to me how my tweeters magically swapped sides. Things have been sounding way off and somehow my tweeters inputs (L/R) changed from L L R R (Input/output) to L R R L??? But only the tweeters were effected. Mids were fine.

Serious this is no joke. Legit this seemingly overnight swapped tweeters around. #Possessed360.3

Im supper confused about this.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm curious as to if this was a result of yanking the usb out of the computer before going in and disconnecting the usb first (in windows). 

I wasn't saving anything. I had everything saved prior and was completely out of the software. It didn't happen instantly though either. It took a little while for it to happen.

I swear Jake if you came over drunk as hell and played a funny on me. Your lucky you did my tweeters. I would have lost everything I've done up to this point if it were my mids.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Got the Singer alt put in. Runs great and was able to utilize the stock belt. Has more then enough tension on it.

idle voltage:

14.9V @ battery (cold)

Flashpro voltage reading while driving normally (this reads right from the computer)

14.8V (cold-Hot)

Still get voltage drop when hitting it hard. Drops to 13.5V (over 12.5V with stock)

More then likely the 2 gauge run to the rear and chassis ground. Plus the fact the Hifonics is super inefficient in its current wire config. I will be swapping it out for two (2) power and two (2) ground runs directly to the front. All in 1/0

I'm doing overkill here


The Ultimax sub are doing AMAZING. It's so funny looking at them as they barely move most the time and when they do its barely a 1/4 inch. Lots of potential here. 

Need to get the baffle braced, new wiring in, and a couple upgrades to wiring to the amps.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Here is some different shots of some of the things I have gotten done.

It's a mess right now but you will see how nice it will look when I'm done:










Here is the alt installed. Got a little scuffed going in. 










All new 1/0 ground and power run. What you can't see is we put on this anti corrosive copper paste between the connection on the alt and on the charge port as well. These should NEVER corrode




















You may be wondering why I'm showing you this. I have plans to utilize this space above the transmission for my front distribution hub. I won't go into detail as to looks yet.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Little update:

Just thought I would post up a couple things that I have purchased this past week.

First off a non audio purchase. With my garage, its not heated, it gets really crappy to work on the car during the winter. Even though I have a couple electric heaters and a 20,000 BTU radiant heater it isn't enough to bring the temp up more then a couple degree's. So with Christmas coming I decided a Forced air (Bullet) heater is in order. So I decided on this unit:










It's a 75,000 BTU Multi fuel unit.

Now onto the audio:

I've been talking with a few people on which route I should take on the substage amp wise. I've decided to go with two (2) Alpine PDX M12's. One per driver wired to 4 ohms for up to 1200+WRMS

I purchased one of two 


Also purchased 50ft of red and 50ft of black power wiring (Bullz Audio 1/0) along with some more Sky High 1/0 Ring terminals as I am in need of a revamp from front to rear.

I will be running this wiring under the car Two runs power and two runs ground. 

To protect this wiring I bought some heavy gauge techflex. Supposed to be abrasion resistant, chemical resistant, and won't absorb water. Figured this would work great for under the car. If your curious as to where I got this look at:

WireCare.com - Your Cable Management SuperStore!


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## SO20thCentury (Sep 18, 2014)

Hey Beckerson, good wire source! Gives me too many ideas, though.
Howz the build coming? You get amp(s) in yet?
Man I'd be afraid to use power wire externally - seems like there's plenty of road debris whacking up into the undercarriage. I once had to run over a box of those gallon-size cans of pineapple chunks cuz there were cars on both sides. Lucky it only tore my splash guard up. 
Hope that heater hasn't asphyxiated you- I was using one but too much fumage, even into the house around the door. Now I'm using a 
DuraHeat 23,000 BTU Kerosene Portable Heater-DH2304 - The Home Depot


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

SO20thCentury said:


> Hey Beckerson, good wire source! Gives me too many ideas, though.
> Howz the build coming? You get amp(s) in yet?
> Man I'd be afraid to use power wire externally - seems like there's plenty of road debris whacking up into the undercarriage. I once had to run over a box of those gallon-size cans of pineapple chunks cuz there were cars on both sides. Lucky it only tore my splash guard up.
> Hope that heater hasn't asphyxiated you- I was using one but too much fumage, even into the house around the door. Now I'm using a
> DuraHeat 23,000 BTU Kerosene Portable Heater-DH2304 - The Home Depot


Builds coming along. Just on the back burner for the moment as I was waiting on bits and pieces to finish up the rear rats nest. Got the last little bit this week so I should be able to get some work done tomorrow. Did get a hold of Mark and did schedule a couple days to go down to NC and get my A pillars started. Along with discussing some other items I'd like him to do at a later date. 

Yes I've got the F4, F6, and 1 of 2 M12's in and its sounding wonderful. 

That's the best thing with the tech flex I've gone with. Its highly abrasive resistant and won't hold water. When I go to run this I will make sure its not the lowest item on the car and I will make sure on both ends of the run it will be fused. With the site I got the techflex from they do have millions of options as far as wraps go. They do have Kevlar infused items and even stronger wraps as well. Came down to price for me. 

Heaters doing great. Haven't noticed many fumes from this thing and I've used it quite a few times now. My garage isn't insulated and its very leaky so all I do crack my door and I'm good to go. Takes about 30 min to bring the temp up (depending on external temp) to 50 degree's (most comfortable for me). Kerosene isn't cheap so as much as I can save the better.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

"Rear rats nest".. Yeah I gots me one of those as well.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> "Rear rats nest".. Yeah I gots me one of those as well.


Lol. And when we look at it we say. How in the world do I NOT have noise. 

I've got rcas crossing amps, power lines, etc...


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

business up front, party in the rear.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

casey said:


> business up front, party in the rear.


Lol sure is. Especially once I get everything done in the front. I've got all new a pillars, new front mirror, and a ton of other bits and pieces just waiting to get put into the car. I've also got plans to redo my arm rests as they have faded out. I may even do my seats as well in leather. 

Tomorrow I plan to run to CHH (college hills honda) to price out the HPF suspension upgrade as they1 still have a few units left for the coupe

So I've got a question for you civic owners. I'm tryin invision how I want the a pillars finished. Stock color is gray roof down to the window line. Black from that point on. Im not sure if I want to do a two tone type deal or just a solid color. And I'm not even sure what material I'd like to go with. Any suggestions would be awesome


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Beckerson1 said:


> So I've got a question for you civic owners. I'm tryin invision how I want the a pillars finished. Stock color is gray roof down to the window line. Black from that point on. Im not sure if I want to do a two tone type deal or just a solid color. And I'm not even sure what material I'd like to go with. Any suggestions would be awesome



JT wrapped my pillars in black street suede. They work quite well around complex surfaces, they don't fade, and they go well with the SI interior. Same as my wife's vehicle, and she went ahead and had him redo her entire dash and doors with that material.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Yes I do like that color. Instead of full black how do you think black being on the bottom and then fade to gray at the top of the pillar?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1379247-post47.html

I do love the look of that. Maybe not the exact layout but a cool two tone that would flow into the roof and red stitching. To me a two tone would look sweet as long as it flows into the headliner.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I even thought of a overall theme I may want to go with for the interior. Instead of the gray accents I'd still keep the black as the dominate character but go red as the accent color. IMHO I love the black and red look on the SI

The headliner would be black but there would be accents of red through the car. At least that's my plan for the trunk as far as color scheme


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## SO20thCentury (Sep 18, 2014)

Black w/ red accents would look sharp. 
Somehow I'm not too hot on suede - might be cuz I have cats & where I go cat hair goes too. I like vinyl or leather or hard surfaces better.
Good deal on the progress all around!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Just a small update:

Non audio related but last week I had a HFP Suspension upgrade installed on the car. It lowers the car about a 1". It replaces the springs and shocks.

With it being cold out I haven't had much motivation to get the trunk cleaned up. It's supposed to warm up this weekend so I'm hoping to have the motivation to start cleaning up the wiring.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Any before vs. after pics?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

papasin said:


> Any before vs. after pics?


I can see about finding something. They still need to fully settle.


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## Roper215 (Oct 21, 2012)

Alcantara might be an option. Jpm coach works sells it if you are interested in checking it out.


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## SO20thCentury (Sep 18, 2014)

papasin said:


> Any before vs. after pics?


How bout now?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

SO20thCentury said:


> How bout now?


Waiting on a new camera lens. Should be hear today so should have some pictures by tomorrow.


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## SO20thCentury (Sep 18, 2014)

Good deal, love your car. Damn shame honda quit making them or civic hatches in general. Howz the ride?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

SO20thCentury said:


> Good deal, love your car. Damn shame honda quit making them or civic hatches in general. Howz the ride?


Ya I don't understand why they stopped the hatches in the states here. There definitely is interest for a Hatch but they must feel there isn't a market for it here.

Ride is a lot rougher but in a good way. I don't mind it. I just need to upgrade my traction balls on the front lower control arm as now that I'm lowered the car just loves to wonder on the highway.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Yeah it just ain't right. Why we can't have these...









Yeah I've gotta look into my suspension as well. Got some kind of creaking going on.. Suspension or steering. Can't tell. And likes to wander a little as well. Gotta find a good pro I can trust with the car locally I think.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Yeah it just ain't right. Why we can't have these...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya I love those rims. 

Ya I had that and tured out to be a loose bolt on the frame or something like that.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> Ya I love those rims.
> 
> Ya I had that and tured out to be a loose bolt on the frame or something like that.


Yeah I gotta get her up on a rack and have it checked out. She's an 08 with something like 80k or so on the clock, and with these road conditions around here, there's no telling.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Yeah I gotta get her up on a rack and have it checked out. She's an 08 with something like 80k or so on the clock, and with these road conditions around here, there's no telling.


Ya hopefully its something simple.

Update:

Here are a couple pics (first pictures with new lens. Canon EF 50mm f/1.4) I took today of the new suspension's drop some of you wanted to see.

Front:










Rear:










17" stock rims once I go to the new 18" rims should fill that gap much better. Overall its between 1/2" to 3/4" drop.

Before:


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## toylocost (Jul 4, 2011)

What are your gains set at? I thought you had to use less power for IB, how are those subs putting up with all that power?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

toylocost said:


> What are your gains set at? I thought you had to use less power for IB, how are those subs putting up with all that power?


Nobody said you have to use less power IB. IB for the same amount of output as a sealed variant uses less power. The amount of power I can toss at these will be determined by the mechanical limits of the subs not the thermal. When measuring these in WinISD in 20 cu ft or so (simulate IB) proved to take gobs of power. Plus if I set it so these get 800Wrms each doesn't mean I see even close to that number. I'd have to clamp the amps to see for sure.

I will tell you this right now. Gains at 12 o'clock and by no means at full potential as I have to address the baffle flex before I'm comfortable letting these move the full range down low (not to mention any cancellation caused by this flex). Don't move all that much till 25-30hz (even then its not a lot)


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## toylocost (Jul 4, 2011)

Beckerson1 said:


> Nobody said you have to use less power IB. IB for the same amount of output as a sealed variant uses less power. The amount of power I can toss at these will be determined by the mechanical limits of the subs not the thermal. When measuring these in WinISD in 20 cu ft or so (simulate IB) proved to take gobs of power. Plus if I set it so these get 800Wrms each doesn't mean I see even close to that number. I'd have to clamp the amps to see for sure.
> 
> I will tell you this right now. Gains at 12 o'clock and by no means at full potential as I have to address the baffle flex before I'm comfortable letting these move the full range down low (not to mention any cancellation caused by this flex). Don't move all that much till 25-30hz (even then its not a lot)


Ok, I read a post on DIYMA somewhere a few days ago where someone said that IB is limited thermally, it didn't make any sense to me but I think he just mixed up what he meant to say.

So technically they will take as much as you can put to them as long as they don't exceed mechanical limits?

I saw you had a PDX-M12 per sub and it surprised me.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

SO20thCentury said:


> Black w/ red accents would look sharp.
> Somehow I'm not too hot on suede - might be cuz I have cats & where I go cat hair goes too. I like vinyl or leather or hard surfaces better.
> Good deal on the progress all around!


Agreed, but suede might help with sound reflections.

Jay


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

Babs said:


> Yeah it just ain't right. Why we can't have these...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't quite understand how car audio fans don't follow car news in general.

Rumor has it, that Honda might bring the Type R over here.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Yeah I heard rumors. I'll believe it when I see it but I fear they'll overprice a U.S. Type-R out of the ballpark.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Yeah I heard rumors. I'll believe it when I see it but I fear they'll overprice a U.S. Type-R out of the ballpark.


Not to mention dumb the thing down


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

toylocost said:


> Ok, I read a post on DIYMA somewhere a few days ago where someone said that IB is limited thermally, it didn't make any sense to me but I think he just mixed up what he meant to say.
> 
> So technically they will take as much as you can put to them as long as they don't exceed mechanical limits?
> 
> I saw you had a PDX-M12 per sub and it surprised me.


Well it could be the case if you limit the low end subsonics in such a way where you can potentially have thermal issues. 

Such as my instance where I place the SSF at 30 hz for SPL


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Overall update (audio and visual updates)


*Rims:*

As of today I ordered my new summer rims which are these:










The tires will be the Continental Extreme Contact DW 

Now for now the color will remain the same but plan to dip them a different color. More later on in this update.

*A Pillar update:*

Well I'm giving Mark till the end of this month and I will have to move on to a different person to do the A pillars. Been talking with JayinMI and we should be meeting up here in the next few months to discuss the build.

*Color change:*

I've been wanting to change up the color of my car for some time now and I've been looking at dipping (Plasti-dip) the car. Now I've been a sucker for blue for a long time and when I came across the Nebula Blue Pearl by DipYourCar I feel in love:










Now the roof I am going to keep Gloss black as I feel that would look really good with the blue.

now here is what I'm going to paint the stock (winter setup) rims with:

Black base with Graphite metalizer. I'm going to probably do one coat and see what that looks like but this will give you a idea.

Now IDK if I will keep the Summer setups rims the same color or if I will change them to a gloss black or the same as the winter setup. I will have to see what the final color is on the rims in a month or so.










Now of course I would remove the over spray off the tire before taking a picture lol


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

As of this point everything (other then new tires and the rims I purchased) as far as the car goes is on temporary hold. That means any A pillar builds or other items that I haven't already purchased.

This past week we had to lay off a lot of great guys due to the oil market. I was fortunate enough to get through this layoff with a job and as of this point it seems stable enough but there are quite a few things I have to tackle Financially first and formost. Audio isn't cheap and I've been pretty careless. I'm currently tackling the situation that I brought on myself.

This is something that has really opened my eyes and I will never let myself get to this point again. 


Now just in case more layoffs happen there may be that possibility I'd have to dump all my gear accept a HU and a component set just so I have tunes. If that come to fruition then I will post up a Emergency FS thread here.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Good luck!! I'm sure you'll pull through this .


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Good luck!! I'm sure you'll pull through this .


Thanks. I've got a simple yet solid plan of attack and hopefully by the end of Oct here I will be Scott free.

Have feelers out for other jobs so right now I'm not stressing out.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Ok guys. Here is the plan for today. Not sure if I will end up doing all of it but here we go.

1) Change trans fluid as what the shop used feels like crap. Notchy as hell when cold (most likely incorrect weight). Wasn't anywhere like that before the new clutch.

2) Dig out the AP RAM3a's and do some initial aiming and listening. Just going to run wire on the outside of the car and do it that way. 

Here are the three options I'm going to test with these.

1. Drivers aimed toward opposite oh crap hand holds. So driver side mid to passenger side and passenger side to driver side.
2. Drivers aimed toward middle doom light ear height.
3. Drivers on axis to driver headrest.

Now I'm going tweeterless so I'm hoping number 3 will work the best being on axis but Number 2 would be close so we will see. Initial crossover point will be 500hz with a steep slop to protect the drivers. 

3) The mocha frappe` will probably wear off by this time so that may be all I get done. I'd like to be able to get the rims plasti dipped today as well.

Plus I have a bunch of mintenance type work to do as well.
__


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Here are the three options I'm going to test with these.
> 
> 1. Drivers aimed toward opposite oh crap hand holds. So driver side mid to passenger side and passenger side to driver side.
> 2. Drivers aimed toward middle doom light ear height.
> ...


Someone whose opinion I would blindly trust, is running tweeter less. He has the drivers firing at opposite C pillars. Try that as well.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

a good mocha frappe can elevate your horizon...


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

sub'd for fellow 8ther


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Well not a audio update but a cosmetic one.

New rims and tires:

Shot of the stock rims:










HPD option for Honda CR-Z (same bolt pattern and size as my Si) 18" goodness. BTW almost 3 lbs less per rim over stock







































Now I asked them to pair these with the Continental Extreme Contact DW but either someone didn't understand me or they miss ordered and got the DWS. Which is the all season version.

I decided to go ahead and keep the DWS as that's what I had previously and I really liked them. Did well with the car and lasted a long time. Bummer but I can deal with it. Not like I'm going to track the car.


Now I've been cleaning the stock rims in prep for getting them ready for the new color I'm going to use on them. I've got a long way to go as there is a crap ton of tar inside the rim. Not surprised as our county loves to chip and seal during the summer.




Anybody have suggestions as to treatment options for new rims. Wax, sealant, ext? I've got everything to do it. Just want you opinions on it. I want to keep these looking really nice for a long time.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

New wheels look killer!


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

My brothers new alt:












Had Mike Singer build him a stock rating alt (not HO). Stock is rated at 140A but testing this alt on low RPM to about 1200 RPM it output 168A with stock pulley. Which for his truck with no system will be plenty. Not to mention a alt that is basically bullet proof. Candy Blue color. Looks amazing in person.

He is now working on rebuilding my stock alt to stock rating. It will be a backup alt if something should ever happen to my HO alt.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Beckerson1 said:


> Now I asked them to pair these with the Continental Extreme Contact DW but either someone didn't understand me or they miss ordered and got the DWS. Which is the all season version.
> 
> I decided to go ahead and keep the DWS as that's what I had previously and I really liked them. Did well with the car and lasted a long time. Bummer but I can deal with it. Not like I'm going to track the car.


Maybe whoever wrote the order put "Continental DWs"? The DWS is a good tire. Rides nice, does well in snow and ice but the side walls seemed a little soft to me when I had them on my Genesis Coupe. I wouldn't autocross on them, but they were a great all around tire.

Jay


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

JayinMI said:


> Maybe whoever wrote the order put "Continental DWs"? The DWS is a good tire. Rides nice, does well in snow and ice but the side walls seemed a little soft to me when I had them on my Genesis Coupe. I wouldn't autocross on them, but they were a great all around tire.
> 
> Jay


Ya I've used them before. Have all kinds of grip as well. With the new shoes and brakes I can practically stop on a dime. 

Ya the sidewall is definitely soft but inflating 38-40 psi front and 40-45 psi rear seems to be the sweet spot guys shoot for with these. I can't tell you how much testing guys with my particular car put into running these tires.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update...

Just wanted to mention a few things I'd hope to be able to grab and get installed here as soon as possible. As some may know my electrical isn't up to snuff as far as what potential my system can perform. I'm currently running 2 gauge power wire front to rear and one g34 3 year old agm battery which is showing signs of being on its last leg. Now this month for those who are lucky enough is a 3 pay month and that means I will have enough cash to place some orders for items to update my electrical. 

First offew I've been talking to a gentleman on mobileaudioforum.com as he is now selling batteries and will offer a lower price as a preorder type deal. So I've been talking for a few weeks now and finally decided I will be running a Odyessey performance series G31 battery in the back and a Odyessey pc1100 extreme series battery up front. Now I was considering running 2 G31 batteries but since my intake included a battery relocation mounting plate I decided it was easier to use it as the battery mount and just make a front distrobution hub which will make disabling vehicle power much safer aND easier as the battery will be mounted low and exposed more to the elements (hence the beffier case design). Also you may ask why so small. My limiting factor was battery width being less then 5 inches. Fortunately Odyessey makes quite a few different sized batteries.

So look forward to the final distrobution hub design and build as it should be interesting how we mount it safely.

Also I will be grabbing enough 2/0 cable to do two runs power and ground to link the two batteries. 

It should be a interesting winter.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Just need some advice on this distrobution layout for my front hub. This is the positive side of the hub itself. 










The only thing different other then what's shown is I'm forgoing the 12v+ acc and doing two 2/0 runs from front battery. Also relocating fuse panel 12v+ to alt input node for safety reasons.

Reason for this layout is for ease of removing electrical hazard from the vehicle, safety, and convenience. The font battery will be mounted in a way that won't be easy to get to. Plus this will allow for all 12v connections to be fused and retain the original alt + to fuse panel hard connection just in case battery's should become disconnected. 

What do you guys think?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Got a couple things in yesterday for the car. As you may or may not know, depends on if I updated here or not, I am upgrading my electrical and a couple other things.

I was able to get in on a preorder offered by Damien over at Soundrive on a couple Odessey batteries. I've been talking with him for a couple months now and he helped me out a lot in choosing a brand of battery to go with. Originally I was going to go with Northstar but Odessey offered a lot more custom option type batteries (Odessey is the father of Northstar, and if you compare the two you will see many simularites between the two brands)

So originally I was looking at two G31 batteries but decided to use the relocated battery mounting location that came with my intake. Now with this I needed a battery that fit a less then 5" width that this location limited me to. So looking at what Odessey offered I came upon the PC1100 as thats the biggest battery they offered that fit the under 5" requirement. 

I will have to mount it sideways but being a dry cell AGM that won't be a issue. These batteries are both Pure Virgin Lead as well. Very strong batteries.


Here are some pics:

G31



















PC1100



















Just a size comparison between the G31 and PC1100











Some specs:

G31

188 minute Reserve capacity
99 AH Rating
After charging resting voltage of 13.2V
3/8" Threaded post option (they also have a SAE option)

PC1100

87 minute Reserve capacity
35 AH rating
After charging resting voltage of 13.2V
M6 Threaded post option (they also have a SAE option)



Now just a mention that Damien thought was quite interesting

The PC1100 is very comparible (in size) to the Northstar SMS80 BUT is upwards to 25% more cranking power, and 10% more AH.


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## 0nbagz (Oct 7, 2014)

Damn that's a big battery


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

0nbagz said:


> Damn that's a big battery


That's what I said. Not sure how I will orient it in my trunk that will allow for securely mounting it. Maybe jockey my amps around to allow for this battery. Luckily they stack so i should be able to find room for it. Not to mention a good 30 lbs more weight added to the rear over what I have now. Will have to bounce some ideas off of Jay and see what he thinks would work.


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## 0nbagz (Oct 7, 2014)

You won't have voltage issues


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Excuse the pic quality. I need to reset the format the camera uses for pics. ATM its HIGHLY compressed JPeg. Like Potato mode

So today I tore into the rear again so I could rearrange the amps and fit my Odessey G31 into the old location of the subs amps. I had temporarily installed my battery into this orientation and ya you may or may not see some zip ties and velcro. Hey it held :laugh:











Battery is out










One sub amp relocated to top mount on the F6 and F4










Installing the battery tie down strap.










Battery installed and how she sits










I've got two 1/0 to 4 4 gauge distro blocks which I have mounted right in front of the batteries. Power side connects right to the positive side of the battery. Negative I have run to a 2 4 gauge to 1 1/0 distro block which connects the battery negative and chassis ground. This atm is temporary. I need to grab a 1/0 to 2 1/0 distro block for this as the one I have now is to small. 

Been talking with Jay as to some finishing touches on finishing look of the A Pillars and a couple other items. I won't disclose the wrap as I want that to be a surprise. 

Now I've been bouncing a few things off him and I feel I'm going to ditch the Pioneer 80 PRS for a Pioneer AVH4100NEX Double din HU. Reason being:

1) Looks... A double din in my car looks so much better. Helps finish out the space.

2) Functionality... I use my Samsung Galaxy S5 all the time, including GPS, Streaming audio, even displaying Torque (app) which displays quite a bit of info for me. This HU will allow me to completely get away from messing with the phone every time I want to change a song, ect... 

This is one extra thing I will have Jay install when he has my car the beginning of the year here.

Also I'm doing a couple changes to the plan for the center console board. I'm moving the volt meters. I will have to see but I think I can fit them on the right side next to my speed indicator (pic is a sedan but the layout in the area of concern is the same) :


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Small update.


Did some quick EQ work. Transfered any adjustments I had from the Hu to the 360.3. I also changed my crossover point for my mids to a HPF of 50hz @24db/oct and a LPF of 50hz @24db/Oct for my subs.

Did some slight TA adjustments on the subs and added 5ms delay to all drivers to allow for negative adjustments if needed. Also changed the level slightly on my driver side tweeter to help center the tweeters. They were pulling right consistently. Changed all tweeter levels about 5 clicks positive to better match up to my mids.


So far all adjustments are paying out. Midbass has doubled in output and absolutely love the massive throw the Anarchys have. Really give great punch down low. Still have some eq work as 80hz is pretty strong in the mids still.

Subs are getting closer. Still feel I need some minor adjustments but for the most part you can't hardly tell I have subs in the rear. 

Need to hit my doors with some more CLD and make spacer out of foam or something to isolate my driver side door low pocket from rattling against my inner door. Also need to stuff some areas and see about finding some foam tape to wrap any wires in the door.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Slight update for my records


Adjusted TA by 2 hundredths of a ms for both mids, and a slight tick for my driver side tweeter. Also added 5 hundredths of a ms onto the subs. Really helped anchor the sub up front along with the slight adjustment to the mids. Also transfered eq adjustments from HU to 360.3

Goals...

Continue to refine eq, take measurements with REW to refine L to R balance, start to center up and equalize volume using pink noise. At this point I probably won't do a bunch of tuning as my setup will be changing here in about 16 weeks. 

I need to start focusing on getting my alignment figured out for the RAM3A'S and start researching on a ported midbass setup using the Stereo Integrity TM65's.


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Small Update:

So started working on dipping my winter rims this past weekend. (3 coats black, 1 coat Graphite Metalizer, 1 coat Top Coat

Pictures don't do this color justice. In person its a lot less gray. The second picture is more like what it looks like in person.



















I am going to hit this with another coat of Top Coat to make it more gloss. As of right now its semi gloss.


Here are the top 3 looks I'm considering for the A Pillars:

1) Black Cherry










2) Same color as rims above

3) Black and Blue










I'm leaning towards Black Cherry as it would match the Red color scheme of the car. I did grab a couple cans so I will test it out on some trim this weekend.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Looks good. Good choice on the Blizzaks. I run a set for winter as well.

Jay


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

JayinMI said:


> Looks good. Good choice on the Blizzaks. I run a set for winter as well.
> 
> Jay


Thanks. Absolutely love them. Only thing is I had to run them about a month over what I should've. So they are pretty warn down. I think the lowest one is 6/32". The rest are around 7 or 8/32". These won't go on till at least January as the tire I currently have are all season. They may or may not be on when i drop the car off. Honda ordered the wrong set. So I do have some wiggle room as far as swap over.

I will test the black cherry this weekend. If I like it I will make sure to have a couple cans available for you.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

That'll work. How do you like the Ultimax's in IB?

Jay


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

JayinMI said:


> That'll work. How do you like the Ultimax's in IB?
> 
> Jay


Love them. Effortlessly play the lows without even braking a sweat. Complete overkill as far as SQ goes. Gotta love the efficiency of IB. Plus I love it when I give demos and people ask do you want the trunk closed. Nope she works even better with the trunk open lol.

Once I figure out bracing for baffle flex. Ya a 2.25" baffle flexing on half the use able throw of these subs is stupid insaine. Which I believe I posted above the plan for this. 

Only difference is I have about 4 inches or so to either brace with some 1 to 2 inch dowel rod or possibly some steel square tubing. I'm going to try and brace just the bottom middle but I have a feeling I will have to brace the top as well. We will see.

Edit:

Here is the brace










Between this and the baffle there is probably 4 inches or so of room to figure out a way of using this to brace the baffle as well. This is mainly designed to stiffen up the rear end to help eliminate body roll. Which I'm hoping this will help eliminate or alliviate stress on the actual baffle itself. Winter is bad as you can hear it creak and crackle when it's really cold out.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Just going on record.

Ran individual pink noise to further center up frequencies. I quarentee I will have to revert back to default settings as I should have taken this in stages. End result was extremely scewed to the driver side. Level adjustment on the mids seemed to help but i feel most of the issue here was fatigue. Tried to squeeze this in before work. Not to mention it was fairly hard to distinguish some of the frequencies. 

Tweeters weren't to bad overall but will note 16k is about nonexistent. 


Feel I may be better off adjusting how I did things and start from a clean slate. That would be a bummer but knowing now what I do I feel It would be the better choice. Plus I think I will play with lowering the LPF on the mid and HPF of the tweeter to see about killing the beaming of the Anarchy's. 4k is a problem spot for the mids. At this point I have them crossed over at 2800hz. Will look into possibly 2k with a sharp slop on the mid and tweeters.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Take some tape and mark an X on your windshield just under the right edge of your rear view mirror. Now play mono full range pink noise, with only the mid bass playing. Tweak the delay between L&R till you get the noise to centre at the X. Depending on the pass range for the MB, the noise may image lower than the X that's ok as long as its vertically aligned. Next do the same with the Mids and then with the tweets. Take a 2 min break between each set of drivers.

Now play the stereo 1/3 oct PN tracks from 50 hz up and get each to centre around the X. Do this 10 frequencies at a time. Take a break, come back and do a quick check on the last 10 and then do the next 10. Be careful with frequencies in the 1-4khz range, the slightest movement of your head can cause the image to jump from side to side. Set these to allow you some freedom of movement. Sometimes a click of TA can also help in moving a stubborn frequency.

[edit] Once you're done, run sweeps to check for how stable the image is and any problem areas [edit].


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Did some more tinkering. Ran a quick session from 300 up to 3k just to check and made some adjustments as some freq within the 300-800hz range were skewed to the left. Also adjusted levels back roughly were they were located before yesterdays session. 

Ran Best Of Chesky Jazz and More Audiophile Tests Volume 2

Specifically General Image and Resolution test

Adjusted TA a couple clicks on the driver side while running the above test to center up the Center vocal.

Today was a much better result from yesterday. Staging seems much better overall. Also depth improved as well. It's a lot less "in my face". Still needs some work with the noise tracks but overall a good session.

Also adjusted the crossover on my tweeters and mids down to 2500hz. This was before running the above tests. Did adjust levels for both mids about 5 db higher but may have to look into a crossover switch. Need to graph the response and see what my crossover is like. Noticed a issue with noise out of the passenger side mid. Not sure if the cone was hitting the door card or with raising the levels is to much. As a precaution I've setup the on board crossover of the amp and lowered gains. 360.3 was probably clipping at that point. To reiterate it was only out of the passenger side mid. Driver side was fine.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update

Over the weekend I was messing around mainly with what finish I'm shooting for for the overall trim color. I've decided to go with the Black Cherry plasti dip as the color for the accent pieces (which are currently silver) and as well as for the A pillars when they are finished. I feel this color choice fits very well for the current flat black layout of the interior. If you've ever seen the color of Black cherry it has what some will call a purplish hue to it but it's more on the dark red side of purple. Depending on how the sun hits the panel the color will shift from a very dark (kinda reminds me of a Midnight black to a red ish purple.

At this point I don't have pictures as this is purely a test piece. Hopefully this Saturday I can get some good pictures. Really depends on if the sun is out or not. If it isn't you won't get that shift I'm talking. Those familar with the civics layout for the trim pieces here is what looking at redoing in Black Cherry.


On the doors:

1) Door handle
2) accent strip right above the door handle that runs from the front to back of the door
3) Accent piece bellow door handle which connects the arm rest to the door handle.

On the Dash:

1) Cowl cover piece over the RPM Guage
2) Dash trim that runs from driver side into the radio dash piece
3) Accent piece on the steering wheel 
4) Silver knobs (hopefully)

A pillars will be done entirely in this with the option for maybe some black accents (really depends on final design of the pillar)

Center console:

1) The switch and usb board located where the pocket currently resides in front of the shifter will be dipped this color as well. 
2) The cowl around the shifter boot 
3) I will look into doing the sliding cup holder door as well. This should allow a really nice transition into the arm rest.

Eventually my trunk will also follow this color scheme. 




Also did a couple slight adjustments to the TA for the driver side mid. Added .24ms delay to bring center inline with everything else. Also added a 3db cut at 50hz, 2db cut at 40hz and 2db cut at 80 hz on the sub. Adjusted TA slightly on the sub as well. 

I'm thinking I might have to subtract somewhere between .05 and .1 ms on the driver side mid. Feel I slightly overshot that adjustment. We will see what the drive home suggests with fresh ears.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Quick Update:

My Stereo Integrity TM65's came in today and can't wait to have these featured in my install. It will be some time but glad I had the funds and able to snag these. I also was able to get in on the last little bit of MAG v3 12" subs. Ordered 1 for a possible future install.

Info for future reference

TM65 6.5″ Woofer
Re	6.8 ohms
Fs	44 Hz
Qes	0.33
Qms	2.12
Qts	0.28
Le	0.82 mH
Sd	14230 mm^2
Vas	17.7 L
Mms	21.3 g
Cms	615.4
BL	10.95
Sensitivity (1w/1m)	89 db
Sensitivity (2.83v/1m)	89.5 db
Xmax	9 mm
Xmech	12 mm











Recommended Ported:

.3 cu ft @56hz


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Couple pictures of the SI TM65 I received this past weekend. 




























AS of now these will sit on the shelf until I can afford to have some pods made up for them.

The plan is these will be featured in a ported setup playing from 50hz to about 250- 300hz max at any point and time. 

I plan to utilize the "umbrella" pocket, as the rear section is easily removable without cutting, for the airspace needed to pull this off should be easily achieved. Plus it should allow me to follow the same contor of the stock door, just no pocket. I will have to recall the post Nick posted but on the site he says a box of 
.3cuft at a tuning of 53hz. 

That may change slightly but is a ballpark of what it will be.

Hopefully I can have this and finishing off my trunk at the same time.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Pictures of the MAG V3 12

Shot of the logo.










Shot of the tinsel leads. Sown into the spiders










Shot of the massive push terminals.










Shot of the sexy motor/frame combo


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Did up the radio dash piece and a couple accent pieces today. Turned out great. 




























Sorry for the fuzzies. This really attracts the cat hair and dust.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> I plan to utilize the "umbrella" pocket, as the rear section is easily removable without cutting, for the airspace needed to pull this off should be easily achieved. Plus it should allow me to follow the same contor of the stock door, just no pocket. I will have to recall the post Nick posted but on the site he says a box of
> .3cuft at a tuning of 53hz.



Wait what!?!? You're doing some custom ported enclosures in an 8th Civic door!?!? Dude! My hero! Anxiously awaiting that!


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Wait what!?!? You're doing some custom ported enclosures in an 8th Civic door!?!? Dude! My hero! Anxiously awaiting that!
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


Well I won't do it myself but I will talk with Jay about it when I drop my car off here in January. See what he's comfortable doing but with the shallow design of the TM65's I should be able to pull this off with little cutting. I won't have the funds to do it this round but within a year I hope to have them done. Basically the crowning jewel of my build.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Went and got my rebuilt stock alt from Mike Singer yesterday. Always enjoy talking with him. He's got some really cool things going on right now. 

I had Mike rebuild my stock alt to stock specs as a backup unit just in case I should sell the car or have to have my 275A alt fixed. He supprised me with a different powder coat then we originally talked about. I decided on a basic gray but he did it in a really nice blue (same color as my brothers, as I did mention I liked that color when we picked his up). Also upgraded to a larger termination stud for the 12v+ off the alt. Replace all internals with all high quality parts. Replaced the regulator with 100% OEM part. 

Stock output was 120A but this new alt should be somewhere between 130 to 140a. That's due to the higher quality stater, diodes, ect... we couldn't really crank and see as he didn't have a way to securely mount it. Alt safely put out 14.8v


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update

Well been doing some calculations and talking with Jay about all the work planed for the car. I'm fortunate enough to be able to get some extra things done that I wasn't initially planning on having done this time around. 

Custom A pillars 
New Pioneer DD unit with steering wheel controls added. Ordered the hu 

There is one more major thing but I will keep that secret. It's not hard to figure out what it is if you've followed this thread and I'm sure a lot of you will be intrigued by it. So stay tuned for more updates.


Also some non car audio updates. Currently seeking pc system guidance as I'm looking to build a dedicated photo editing rig. Ordered the monitor today as for now I will utilize my laptop. Also a copy of Paintshop Pro X8 Ultimate showed up today as well. Ordered some HDMI cable as well.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

The HU, and PAC unit came in today. Here are some pictures before they go into storage till installation. I was hoping to edit these on the new computer screen but it hasn't arrived as of yet. 

Here is what comes in the box:










Closer shot of the HU:










PAC unit:










Remote:











Rear of the HU:


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Looking good!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

papasin said:


> Looking good!


Thanks. I'm getting excited as ive got a major supprise being worked on. 

Only a select few know of what I'm doing. Going to be epic


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## fullergoku (Jun 21, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Thanks. I'm getting excited as ive got a major supprise being worked on.
> 
> Only a select few know of what I'm doing. Going to be epic


I like Epic...Epic is good!!!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

What is it? Like 3 more weeks from tomorrow? Now I'm getting excited. lol

Jay


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

JayinMI said:


> What is it? Like 3 more weeks from tomorrow? Now I'm getting excited. lol
> 
> Jay


I know right. Hopefully I can get rid of this cold before then.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Just a week away till I drop off the car at Jay's and he does his magic. I've been putting off doing driver orientation for the Ram3a's for a while now and the time for procrastination is over.

So lets start off with the REW results ( Added 1/6 Smoothing for ease of seeing the general curve. Ran sweeps from 80hz to 20kHz with crossovers set for 250hz+ ) :










Each time I ran 4 sweeps total with the mic near middle of head facing forward. Not much averaging going on for this as I'm more interested in what my ears hear vs going strictly by the graph.


*Brief description of what I heard:*

_
Purple (Driver side mid facing passenger side O crap handle and Passenger mid facing driver side O crap handle)_





















Width seemed to lack a little bit with this setup. Vocalists seemed to be more centered between the speakers vs others. Low midrange (granted this will improve with a enclosure) lacked more umph then the other variations. 


_Greenish Orange (Drivers facing towards Rear map light/Ear height for the focal point)_ 




















Width improved vs the O crap option. Seemed to extend more towards the rear facing mirrors. Vocalist pulled more towards the driver side but not as bad as the drivers facing driver option. Low midrange much improved and gave a fair amount of punch even so being free air. Also you will see this option seemed to remedy the dip in the 600hz to 900hz range. I assume I had cancelation going on with the drivers facing driver option?

_
Black (Drivers Facing Driver)_






















Width was very similar to the one above. Seemed to extend more towards the rear facing mirrors vs what seemed to be more limited to A pillar to A pillar with the O crap Option. Vocalist pulled even more towards the driver side mid. As said above there is more of a dip around 600hz to 900hz. You upper end was slightly more noticeable vs the option above BUT both were very similar.



Overall I seemed to like the Drivers facing Rear map light/Ear height option the best. 


Now of course the finished product with have the same orientation but the drivers will be pushed back as much as possible and as close to the A Pillars as possible. 



Once I figured out the orientation I wanted I just wanted to do a quick test run (added some delay to the driver side mid) and reintroduced the Anarchy's set to play from 50hz to 250hz. I will tell you this. Talk about sweet zone. I can't wait to listen to everything once its in and get to tuning. Already can tell you its a but load better then what I have already.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Sweet!! You coming to Jason's meet? Man I'd love to see this. The Civic guys can all sing kumbaya. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Sweet!! You coming to Jason's meet? Man I'd love to see this. The Civic guys can all sing kumbaya.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


Probably not for the spring meet. But plan to for the fall meet.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Justin, if you can make it, Jason's meets are totally worth the trip. 
It's about a 10hr (according to google, 12hr according to real life, lol) trip from where I'm at. Decent hotels about 20 min away.

Last time, we drove down on Friday, got the hotel and crashed, spent all Saturday at Jason's and I left around 11:30pm, IIRC. We drove home Sunday.

I'm planning to be there. Unless something goes totally sideways! lol

Jay


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Small update.

Got the car dropped off with Jay and had a lot of fun talking with both he and his girlfriend. Both awesome individuals. Absolutely can't wait to see what he come up with for the final design. 

I also had a amazing g time at the International Auto show in Detroit and am still drying the drool off my mouth.

I took quite a few photos with my phone and here are just a few




















I will post up more once I have time. Also the amount of dust on these cars was sad.


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## LaydSierra (Aug 20, 2009)

Are you running the Anarchys IB in the door?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

LaydSierra said:


> Are you running the Anarchys IB in the door?


Yes I am.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Here are some more pictures from the Auto show:











































































I will tell this about CTS-V you can't tell how BIG the car once your inside. Its quite spacious. Absolutely lovely car.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:

Due to some technical difficulties the car isn't 100% done as of yet. Had some issues with the glass not wanting to dry and just plain time in general. I do have some Finished pictures to satisfy those curious. Once I'm able to grab the multitude of pictures from Jay I will post up more build pictures. 

Voltmeter Dash Mod:










As of now these both read the voltage of the HU power run which is a dedicated run from the rear for both 12V+ and Ground. In the future one will read front battery voltage and the other will continue to read the rear voltage. 


Pioneer AVH4100NEX:











You may notice there isn't a trim ring. That was due to me forgetting to send it along with the HU. Today I tried to put it on but need to trim the lower and upper section of the trim so it will clear the face. It just won't fit as of yet. What you don't see is I also had a PAC steering wheel control unit added as well. Its nice having control again without taking my hands off the wheel.


Dash switch board:










You will notice a key'd switch in which is used to disable the remote turn on for the HU (via two relays) and also will disable all switches on the board so nothing will work for cases I drop my car off at shops. This would prevent them from messing with the system without taking things apart. 

Two of the Four switches are utilized atm. Each switch controls a single voltmeter. Plans for the other switches are up in the air but I'm looking at utilizing one of them as a LED switch (RGB leds in the foot wells, rear seats, trunk). The fourth one is a optional one. Also it wouldn't be hard to add more if need be.

The RF 360.3 controller is mounted on a angle facing towards the center of the car. So far this orientation really diminishes the brightness of this unit (for those who have used the 360.3 unit they know how obnoxious this is).


The material used is 1/2 to 3/4 PVC. It turned out absolutely amazing and I have a couple cool ideas for paint that would look great. 




I won't say much about the final look of the A pillars but I really LOVE the direction Jay is taking them. Going to look epic. Then there is the surprise. Main reason its taking so long. Once I drop what it is people will understand why. 


PLEASE if your one of the 4 or so people who know what it is please don't say anything.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

Sub'd Can't wait to see the pillars!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Yeah same here. Itching for some A-pillars


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Beckerson1 said:


> Here are some more pictures from the Auto show:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where are the PYT's? Aren't car shows supposed to have young girls in short skirts around the cars? All I can see are curious dudes ....and some amazing cars.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> I will tell this about CTS-V you can't tell how BIG the car once your inside. Its quite spacious. Absolutely lovely car.


I'm officially a caddie fan.. I'd roll that GM-built thang and wouldn't bat an eye, even though it's totally against my Japanese-car religion. That thing is sweet!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Where are the PYT's? Aren't car shows supposed to have young girls in short skirts around the cars? All I can see are curious dudes ....and some amazing cars.


I could only count on my hand how many models were there. Most you could tell were snobs


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> I'm officially a caddie fan.. I'd roll that GM-built thang and wouldn't bat an eye, even though it's totally against my Japanese-car religion. That thing is sweet!


It sure is. You could still tell it was American because of the interior but it looks like we are finally getting the hint from the Europeans. Now way I could ever afford one but maybe someday I will know someone who has one and can give me a ride.

I'm partial to the BMW M3. Even the M2 was nice looking.


Just a heads up I'm probably going to make a brand new thread for this update. I'm ready for the audio to be done so I can focus more on life and save up for the long haul to make the car into a daily driver show car.

I'll update here once I get the new thread up so those subscribed can view the goodies.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

M5! Dream big brother! 


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> M5! Dream big brother!
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


I could barely afford a M3 yet alone a M5.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> I could barely afford a M3 yet alone a M5.



I'm a pro at spending other people's money. Should make a career out of it. 


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> I'm a pro at spending other people's money. Should make a career out of it.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


Who isn't lol.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Teaser Update:

We tried to get done this past weekend with the build but time just wasn't on Jay's side. Pulled an all nighter Saturday into Sunday morning but had probably a good 7-9 hours of work left and I about guarantee mistakes would have been made. Plus he was running out of body filler. So we decided to give it another week and he will be driving down this coming Saturday to get the items installed. Yes we're talking more then just the A pillars. Hence the amount of time needed here. 

Just starting to get through the 200+ photos so here are a couple teaser shots to keep those curious happy.

Working on getting the baffle for the A pillar cut out:





























Now the final build progress I will make a new thread for. Also it will be only a portion of the pictures as I plan to make a scrapbook of the entire progression from start to finish. I plan to bring this to Jason's meet this April for those who want to view the build in its entirety. I know everyone is curious. Be patient and hopefully by next Sunday or so I should have a few parts I can post up.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> Teaser Update:


You Sir, are a..











Beckerson1 said:


> I plan to bring this to Jason's meet this April for those who want to view the build in its entirety.


 Yay!!!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I will tell you this. Driving home on 30hrs of no sleep sucked. I keep falling asleep. About hit a few people. Not fun. 3 hours is nothing when your awake but when your dead tired. Boy does it drag

Makes me kinda nervous to drive down to NC. Would be the longest I'd driven by myself. I can't stand coffee, haven't touched a pop for 4 months. 

Might do a 3 HR drive after work Thursday and hotel up and get a good night's sleep into friday. Put me down at the hotel around 3 to 4


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Yeah, even the 1hr home for me was bad enough. Glad you made it tho.

Jay


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

JayinMI said:


> Yeah, even the 1hr home for me was bad enough. Glad you made it tho.
> 
> Jay


I bet. Texted you


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Major update

Here is the fruit of our labor. Isn't she a beauty?










We did a ton of testing, hence why it's taken so long, and this is what we've come up with. We've found out that the stock grill was very restricted as far as the FR of the speakers. Removing it helped out a ton with the midrange. Especially in the 700 to 1k range I've been having issues with. 

Then we decided to get rid of the pocket as it would rattle against the door itself and since I don't use it. The hell with it. Jay is making some custom covers for the open area so at least it looks presentable. 


I'm supper stoked about this and I hope this has gone beyond your expectations. Can't wait to get the A pillars put in Saturday and get to tuning.


Is this a tease? Idk you tell me. :surprised:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Nicee! As far as the rattling pocket though, why not just use closed cell foam? Quicker, cheaper, easier

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Nicee! As far as the rattling pocket though, why not just use closed cell foam? Quicker, cheaper, easier
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Well there is so little room between the door card and the pocket it was virtually impossible to add anything other then the cld behind it. We would have had to drill the door as the stock clips wouldn't hold. Just kinda one of those things.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Duuuude!! Hell yeah!!
I've been contemplating that stock grill for years now but no balls. Yeah the card is pretty tight on the 8th civ at the bottom. I actually have CCF/MLV behind it but it's tight. I even wanna get an extra set of cards so I can butcher em and get silly with a build like that.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Duuuude!! Hell yeah!!
> I've been contemplating that stock grill for years now but no balls. Yeah the card is pretty tight on the 8th civ at the bottom. I actually have CCF/MLV behind it but it's tight. I even wanna get an extra set of cards so I can butcher em and get silly with a build like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol... trust me it's a complete wash that grill. Idk what they were thinking. 

Now it's a matter of what kinda sick experiment I'm really running


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> Lol... trust me it's a complete wash that grill. Idk what they were thinking.
> 
> Now it's a matter of what kinda sick experiment I'm really running



Well I'd say you're committed now brother. Break out da fiberglass!! Hehe. 


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

First ever 4th order? Sounds like a plan


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> First ever 4th order? Sounds like a plan



LOL! Absolutely. Maybe a ported midbass build. Pipe a port back in from inside the door metal. 


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Maybe. Maybe even a sealed enclosure, or am I sticking with the Anarchy's or am I going crazy and doing a 4th


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Seriously though I hope the weather cooperates and we are able to get everything installed this Saturday. 

I know it's supposed to be a high of single digits and a windchill of -10 or so. Not supposed to snow till Monday.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Brrr. Yeah I'm done with winter


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Brrr. Yeah I'm done with winter
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk



Lol. This is the most snow we had. So I can't complain. Bring it on.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Alright guys serious question. I'm going to try something slightly different with how I measure. I usually just pull AUX output from my laptop which as of recently been prone to noise if plugged in. So I'm going to utilize my Schiit Modi (iirc) to pull audio via usb. I assume I need to do a calibration of it?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Me too has made that observation that the grill mess up the midrange, it's usually no hassle if you use them as dedicated midbasses though.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Me too has made that observation that the grill mess up the midrange, it's usually no hassle if you use them as dedicated midbasses though.
> 
> 
> Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk


You'll see soon the real reason the grill was cut. I should do a sweep and see what improved though. Would be interesting.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> Alright guys serious question. I'm going to try something slightly different with how I measure. I usually just pull AUX output from my laptop which as of recently been prone to noise if plugged in. So I'm going to utilize my Schiit Modi (iirc) to pull audio via usb. I assume I need to do a calibration of it?



I'm gonna say yes.. Calibrate as a sound card in REW. What are you using for a mic setup? 

I'm in rough shape because I have no ext audio interface and my phone output from the laptop is borked (non-functional at all). And I'm too damn cheap to get an external. Hehe. Can't do sweeps at all. Just RTA with pink noise from the phone through the head unit. Ghetto measuring. 


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> I'm gonna say yes.. Calibrate as a sound card in REW. What are you using for a mic setup?
> 
> I'm in rough shape because I have no ext audio interface and my phone output from the laptop is borked (non-functional at all). And I'm too damn cheap to get an external. Hehe. Can't do sweeps at all. Just RTA with pink noise from the phone through the head unit. Ghetto measuring.
> 
> ...


UMIK-1 USB mic from minidsp is the mic I use. I haven't gotten the budget to get into the more expensive mic setup. I'm sure it would make things easier but that learning gap. I also have the OMNI mic from PE as well. But tend to use the UMIK-1 more

The Modi has only RCA outs so idk if that matters as far as calibration. Wouldn't think it would.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Update:


It's done but yet its not done. Heck I'm just getting started with tuning:

Stereo Integrity TM6.5. Yes you are correct. Ye eyes do not deceive you. That is a port beside that speaker. Tuning is .3 cuft after port displacement as well as speaker displacement. Its tuning is somewhere between 55-57 HZ. We were shooting for 56Hz










Nicknamed the shark










Now thats pretty:










Not very intrusive into the cabin. Looks very good against the door. Jay did a wonderful job blending in this piece.






















This is only a small portion of the build. I am working with Jay right now to build a solid posting which will have the correct information so we can keep questions down for both Jay and I. Please be patient with me on this.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Nice custom door panels! Always wanted to try vented mids, went for way undersized sealed boxes instead with larger cone area. Your approach will be a lot more efficient however. 

Have you tried integrate the mids to your subs yet? I imagine there can be some issues with peaking group delay in the middle of the crossover. FIR filters is one solution if you run into issues. My vented sub sounds like a better version of a sealed box after I applied FIR correction to it.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Nice custom door panels! Always wanted to try vented mids, went for way undersized sealed boxes instead with larger cone area. Your approach will be a lot more efficient however.
> 
> Have you tried integrate the mids to your subs yet? I imagine there can be some issues with peaking group delay in the middle of the crossover. FIR filters is one solution if you run into issues. My vented sub sounds like a better version of a sealed box after I applied FIR correction to it.


I have. It's not bad. Integrates quite well. Cant hardly tell the subs kick in.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Beckerson1 said:


> I have. It's not bad. Integrates quite well. Cant hardly tell the subs kick in.


Great 

Do a minimum phase group delay measurement in RoomEQ if you get the chance sometime. Would be interesting to see how it looks. You could try TDA too, very easy to use.

Download.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Great
> 
> Do a minimum phase group delay measurement in RoomEQ if you get the chance sometime. Would be interesting to see how it looks. You could try TDA too, very easy to use.
> 
> Download.



If you donate me a mic with the ability to do that with. All I have is a USB mic setup. With being unemployed atm I won't be able to do this for some time. At least not till I can get a steady income


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Beckerson1 said:


> If you donate me a mic with the ability to do that with. All I have is a USB mic setup. With being unemployed atm I won't be able to do this for some time. At least not till I can get a steady income


I sort of confused you with someone else, I thought you had posted measurements before somewhere. What kind of USB mic do you got? Just doing a sweep in TDA doesn't require any high-end calibrated stuff.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> I sort of confused you with someone else, I thought you had posted measurements before somewhere. What kind of USB mic do you got? Just doing a sweep in TDA doesn't require any high-end calibrated stuff.


PM'd


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

OK here are some pictures including some pictures of the A pillars. If your wondering what color I'm using it is Plasti-Dips Black Cherry. I had some issues with some leaking noise out of the passenger side and to remedy this I used pipe thread tape to help seal the threads. There is a slight noise I get but for the most part unless you on top of the driver you can't hear it. Most likely some wires behind the pod inside the door. I'm not to concerned with it. I will eventually get in there and see about securing any wires.

Now I'm sure your curious what I used for the grills. Well I had purchased some of the new speaker grill cloth sold by Parts Express:

Mellotone Premioum Black
Part# 260-332

This fabric is double the thickness of the other speaker cloth they offer. Also is double sided so you have the option to choose a slightly less course or more course looking end result. Jay really like this stuff as the glue he used to adhere it to the metal grill didn't bleed through. 










The main speaker grill is held on by 4 magnets in each corner. So far they hold when shutting the door which is good. For the most part these will be on 99 percent of the time but I did have Jay make them removable for those demo's where I'd like to show off the TM6.5's 

Now this piece is made out of some wood to give its shape. The main purpose of this piece is to hide the bolts and hard mounting points that hold the beauty panel onto the door securely. Used the same grill cloth to match the speaker grill. These originally were held on by magnets but would fall off if you slammed the door to hard. So no we have them held on by Velcro. 










Here is the passenger side:










Driver side:










Alright onto the A pillars. These were quite interesting to watch as Jay would visualize quite a few things and then see him bring that into the 3D realm was really cool. Classic teardrop shape with the small transducer that comes with the RAM3A mounted in the lower left hand corner. The grill uses the same cloth to match the doors and the metal grill was slightly different then what Jay used in the doors itself. Came out great. Yes the grill is removable, its pressure fit. Most cases I will not remove the grill. 




























Here is a better shot of the control panel. I will talk more about how this was built when I post some of the build pictures of this piece. Now if your familiar with the 360.3 remote you know the leds are bright. With the angle and the pocket in front of this board most of the light is contained and isn't annoying at all. Turned out great:











Also we integrated the stock AUX plug that comes with the car standard. I had purchased a .3 meter 90 degree to straight 3.5mm AUX cable male to male. We ended up using the 90 degree portion for this. What Jay did was tap into the stock harness (main). Brown wire was the shield (sense for the stock system) and there were two other colors (red and ....) he tapped for the L and R signal. 

Now I don't really ever use AUX but for tuning purposes. If the L and R are swapped it won't be hard to reverse as I use RCA to 3.5 for tuning.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pgl4roaznnweex1/Crossover%20Testing.mdat?dl=0

REW file for my setup. The goal for this was to get the drivers fairly close, set basic TA, and get crossovers somewhat lined up with each respective driver set. Passenger side mid has a crossover of 200hz and the driver side is 250hz. A pillars are very similar. Passenger side iirc is set to 315hz


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Well I haz a very big problem right now. One of my drivers has a buzz. Removed speaker from pod and confirmed the buzz follows the speaker. Emailed Nick. Awaiting a response


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Well, that suckz... =/


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pgl4roaznnweex1/Crossover%20Testing.mdat?dl=0
> 
> REW file for my setup. The goal for this was to get the drivers fairly close, set basic TA, and get crossovers somewhat lined up with each respective driver set. Passenger side mid has a crossover of 200hz and the driver side is 250hz. A pillars are very similar. Passenger side iirc is set to 315hz


Wow those AP3's have a metric ton of slope. Applying a straight line target at 96.1db Target Level, at a HF Fall Slope of 5.0 though they flatten out nicely applying auto EQ filters from 300hz to 9khz with 5 filters on driver side and 6 on passenger side. Not too shabby. But wow I thought my slope was steep.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Well, that suckz... =/


I'm sending it down to Nick so he can check it out.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Wow those AP3's have a metric ton of slope. Applying a straight line target at 96.1db Target Level, at a HF Fall Slope of 5.0 though they flatten out nicely applying auto EQ filters from 300hz to 9khz with 5 filters on driver side and 6 on passenger side. Not too shabby. But wow I thought my slope was steep.


See I tried the Auto eq option last night and hated it. I had to of messed it up.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Beckerson1 said:


> See I tried the Auto eq option last night and hated it. I had to of messed it up.


The beauty of it.. It's all about your target line. You can apply filters then move your line around and do it again and see differing results. Don't be afraid to blow it away, but when you get a good one, save the file. Then you can even blow away a saved filter, just don't re-save and overwrite your original. All I did with your file is try to make the line match the natural response of the AP3's and see what that target would look like. Granted you can pretty much do the same damn thing the Kyle Ragsdale method... RTA runs with pink noise, look for the peaks, apply a filter in the DSP, remeasure to see how your filter did.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> The beauty of it.. It's all about your target line. You can apply filters then move your line around and do it again and see differing results. Don't be afraid to blow it away, but when you get a good one, save the file. Then you can even blow away a saved filter, just don't re-save and overwrite your original. All I did with your file is try to make the line match the natural response of the AP3's and see what that target would look like. Granted you can pretty much do the same damn thing the Kyle Ragsdale method... RTA runs with pink noise, look for the peaks, apply a filter in the DSP, remeasure to see how your filter did.


I dont think it was the target curve though. I truly believe I completely screwed up the Q and maybe even the DB gain level while transferring it all to the 360.3. Is it a 1:1 conversion or is is more like 1:2 or 2:1, ect...

I just did a 1:1 ratio on the Gain level per freq and had to guess on the Q though. I believe this is where I screwed up. Plus I was fully sure about the target level. So I targeted the lowes DB level between each pair of drivers (split like this: Mids, A pillars, and Subwoofer)

This is what Auto Eq spit out for me:

Passenger Side AP: 64db Level
282Hz=-20.7Q1.50 846.0Hz=-18.8Q2.05 4094Hz=-13.9Q1.60 509Hz=-20.4Q2.60 1804Hz=-17.4Q2.44 2660Hz=-9.9Q4.06 8011Hz=-6.8Q3.24 95Hz=-5.2Q2.77 105Hz=-10.2Q5.44 136.5Hz=-9.6Q6.38 183Hz=-8.4Q6.82 56.80Hz=-8.2Q7.79 49.30Hz=-8.4Q24.65 

Driver Side AP: 64db Level
784Hz=-17.9Q1 446Hz=-17.6Q1.04 3641Hz=-13.8Q1.11 262Hz=-14.6Q1.31 2191Hz=-11.1Q2.73 120Hz=-8.7Q4.64 7521Hz=-5.4Q4.09 142.5Hz=-6.6Q5.06

Passenger Side MB: 78db
775Hz=-19.7Q1.79 1835Hz=-13Q3.74 1336Hz=-11.4Q4.21 107Hz=-9.6Q5.12 177Hz=-12Q6.40 89.90Hz=-8.4Q4.48 53.70Hz=-8.4Q4.48 64.30Hz=-7.5Q4 75.70Hz=-8.6Q4.59 254Hz=-6.3Q3.73 45.90Hz=-7.8Q5.06 40.35Hz=-5.9Q7.19 434Hz=-3.2Q6.78

Driver Side MB: 78db
1401Hz=-20.6Q1 280Hz=-24.4Q1.32 717Hz=-9.3Q3.26 135.5Hz=-8.2Q4.37 105Hz=-8.2Q4.37 119Hz=-9.4Q5.01 70.60Hz=-9Q4.80 52.50Hz=-10.1Q5.39 60.40Hz=-8.1Q4.33 434Hz=-6.9Q3.8 45.65Hz=-9.5Q5.26 91Hz=-8.1Q4.72 40.5Hz=-8.8Q5.27 34.65Hz=-4.5Q3.03 27.65Hz=-5.1Q3.74 179Hz=-4.3Q13.77

Subwoofer:
197Hz=-28.7Q8 102.5Hz=-9.4Q5.01 116.5Hz=-11.1Q5.92 89.30Hz=-7.5Q4 169.5Hz=-12.7Q6.77 141Hz=-12.4Q6.61 128Hz=-12.7Q6.77

The best thing about the 360.3 I can identify the individual freq I want to target. so I can have 31 bands of 100-131Hz if I wanted to.


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## SO20thCentury (Sep 18, 2014)

Yes, the door & a-pillar pods are even better than all you hyped it up to be! Slick as hell. Beautiful work, Jay - exactly (better, really) than what I envisioned to mount my KAXBLTWTs. Just perfect, really! The choice and colors of the materials too. What did you end up using on the pillars?


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

SO20thCentury said:


> Yes, the door & a-pillar pods are even better than all you hyped it up to be! Slick as hell. Beautiful work, Jay - exactly (better, really) than what I envisioned to mount my KAXBLTWTs. Just perfect, really! The choice and colors of the materials too. What did you end up using on the pillars?


Ended up going with Plasti Dip for the A pillars. It's the Black Cherry they offer. Jay really wanted to wrap them to match the stock color but I'm planning for the future as I'd like to redo a good portion of the dash as leather and I will carry that up the A pillars and eventually redo the headliner. At least with Plasti dip I can easily change colors or even eventually get them wrapped.


Sorry guys and gals for not updating with more build pictures. There have been some issues come up with the driver side beauty panel so sent it to Jay to fix up, also I've been having some issues with my editing rig. RMA'd the power supply but I'm not to sure the plugs in my room are bad. Our printer just keeps turning on and off and there are times my backup UPS power supplies trip for no reason at all. So in most cases I will relocate my computer from my room to a different location and change where we have are modem and router as well. Just strange things going on. You know typical electronics being finicky


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> I dont think it was the target curve though. I truly believe I completely screwed up the Q and maybe even the DB gain level while transferring it all to the 360.3. Is it a 1:1 conversion or is is more like 1:2 or 2:1, ect...
> 
> I just did a 1:1 ratio on the Gain level per freq and had to guess on the Q though. I believe this is where I screwed up. Plus I was fully sure about the target level. So I targeted the lowes DB level between each pair of drivers (split like this: Mids, A pillars, and Subwoofer)
> 
> ...


Anyone know the answer to this? I practiced with my computer setup and it turned out quite well. Utilizing a 2x4 minidsp for my computer. I might post up the results on it.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Any final words on the Anarchys, and your experience with them over the past couple years?

I was considering changing from them in my new car as a strict <500hz midbass, but apparently there arent much upgrade options in 6.5", or below a 300/pair budget.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Kazuhiro said:


> Any final words on the Anarchys, and your experience with them over the past couple years?
> 
> I was considering changing from them in my new car as a strict <500hz midbass, but apparently there arent much upgrade options in 6.5", or below a 300/pair budget.


In that range and if you can fit them. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. IMHO the best range for the Anarchy's is between give or take 50hz and 1K. I only have a limited experience with the Anarchy's within this bandpass (I ran them to 2.5K) but when I was testing the placement of the pillars I did listen to a couple songs with the bandpass set for 50hz to 250hz and the midbass was quite strong considering they were 6.5" (really they're considered more along the lines of a 7").


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I decided to replace my IM gasket to a Hondata unit and in the process I failed to read the instructions and bent two studs. Not a massive problem though. Gave me a chance to do some things I've been putting off. One of these was doing a coolant bypass from the TB, replacing the stock metal IM gasket, and even painting the Valve cover, and IM.

Now I didn't take any pictures of the IM while painting it but used VHT Flat Black header paint (ya I know way over kill but its what I had). Taped off all mating surfaces, and plugged the injector holes. I applied 3 coats to the IM itself. Came out really nice. I will get some pictures of everything on the car itself. 

Now it was time to get the valve cover off and done. In the process of taking the cover off I just did a simple check of all the components (except the spark plugs as they are basically brand new). All seals are pliable and have no visible sings of ware/cracking and the coil packs look really good as well. General inspection of the valves, cam lobs, etc... look great as well.

Anyway onto some pictures of the valve cover:










Main reasons for re-painting. There were only a few places the stock paint started to peel and some corrosion as well:




























Back part:










Applied some paint stripper to help soften the paint:





















Now at this point I stripped what paint I could with a wire wheel and the applied primer. Turned out like crap so I restarted and had my cousin sand blast the valve cover for me. Made worlds of difference.

I then used some SEM High build primer ( as there were very small amounts of paint still on the piece). Did 3 coats of that with some light sanding in between to help shape some of the worst areas. I then used some SEM Self etching primer to help fill any small voids. I then applied the VHT paint:

These pictures look gray but in real life its definitely flat black:



















Also painted the plastic spark plug wiring cover as well. Used VHT Chevy Red for this (matches the IM cover).











Overall it turned out great. Just wish I had the space and time to tare the entire engine/trans out and do a complete repaint of the engine bay and paint the block, any accessories, etc... 

Oh also repainted (just used VHT engine enamel primer and on top of that I used VHT engine enamel clear coat as well) the upper radiator mount as I had to remove that to get the IM out. Doesn't match the stock color but no one will ever see it other than those who work on the car and I'm not worried about it.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

Turned out really nice!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

1FinalInstall said:


> Turned out really nice!


Thanks I really like the way it looks on the car. Even though you only see about a 1/3rd of the cover anyway as there is a heat shield that goes over most of it.

Now it just makes everything else thats stock look bad lol


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Sweet!! Looks great!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Sweet!! Looks great!
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I really need to clean the engine bay. I still need to do a couple touch ups to the valve cover but it sure looks really nice.

Now with the replacement of the intake manifold gasket they have you move the ground for the injectors up onto the valve cover (due to essentially removing 99% of the metal to metal contact of the IM and head) but that location there is a rubber seal under the chrome caps and I didn't feel it would be a very good ground so I ran a ground from the stock point on the manifold and ran that up front to the upper radiator mount. It's only temporary atm as I wanted to get the car running. Eventually I will be able to get it grounded right to my central hub up front.

Jay has already said he is going to fix my alarm system (it was really bugging him) when I have the car in for the trunk build. Which Jay if you see this post It will be a couple years from now.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Non-Audio Related update:

Recently my stock exhaust broke at a weld about a foot off the header and I've been wanting to upgrade the header and exhaust for some time now (as the stock header is very restrictive) so I decided to bite the bullet and do a full upgraded exhaust. 

So here are the items I decided on.

Header

PLM Triy-Y Race Header










I had a fellow weld as much as he could of the slip joints as this header (while a great budget header) is known to leak. I haven't noticed anything abnormal while driving. My hope is, if there is a slight leak, the carbon buildup will hopefully seal the leak. 

Exhaust 

3" Full Race Exhaust 










Only thing I need to fix on this is the rear hanger as the very tip of the exhaust tip does come into contact with the bumper itself. Which isn't a uncommon issue with the coupe version of this exhaust. I have to double check but I did request to utilize the stock CAT. Even though in the area I live we don't have to do emissions testing. 


I am currently awaiting a complete tune with these new additions but am very pleased with the results. There isn't any annoying drone at highway speeds and the exhaust is quite civilized at idle/partial throttle but once you go WOT it screams. 

Has a nice tone (deep/throaty) and hell of a lot better then a Fart Can many associate with Civics. 

As far as interfering with the audio it really doesn't. The main difference is the stiff lower rear mount I needed to upgrade to a stiffer unit. Get some more vibration into the cabin but I can't complain. Nothing some CLD and MLV on the firewall wouldn't kill.



OH by the Way

GO TRIBE!!!


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Slight vehicle update:

I've been wanting to go with projector headlights for some time now and I finally bit the bullet.

I went through RSXRetrofits as the builder.

I went with a OEM style headlight with 5500K Morimoto 35W HIDs. Mini H1 7.0 are the projectors with a Mini gatling gun shroud. Blacked out the reflector bowl flat black and also had Red demon eyes installed. At this point and time I'm awaiting hooking them up to a switch on my interior board so no pictures of those yet.

Highly suggest looking into RSX Retrofit for your custom projector needs.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Nice! Yeah that's one of the cosmetic things I need to address on my old FA5.. The lights are really looking rough. 


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Babs said:


> Nice! Yeah that's one of the cosmetic things I need to address on my old FA5.. The lights are really looking rough.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ya it really adds a lot to the look of the car. Can't wait to get the demon eyes hooked up to one of my interior switches. Will look mean when i do


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Small tuning update:


Didn't do a ton of tuning last night but I did remeasure for TA as settings got out of whack from messing around with to much at once and not saving a basic starting point. 

Anyway I decided to start with a fairly fresh slate (still maintained my L to R balancing on the Apillars but will be remeasuring and redoing the balancing)

Overall much improved. Clarity and depth are back but staging is slightly off (feel this is more a L to R balance then TA). Also did some moderate EQ work (transferring adjustments from HU to 360.3) and its sounding really good. 

Have some issues some resonance with the lower/mid vocal range as there is a couple areas that are quite strong/prominent that I can't seem to work out with EQ. There are a couple things I will look into and try to limit this.

ATM I'm only running 1 sub as I haven't gotten around to re-wiring to subs to work with the PDx v9.


One thing I did notice though going to the one sub. I was getting a crap ton of cancellation/muddy sound with the two subs. Why? My guess would be the insufficient support on the baffle. As I said earlier in this thread the baffle does in fact move a fair amount and that can't help things much and the rattles are killing me. Get all kinds of buzzing in the headliner, rear quarter panel plastic parts are annoying and a couple places in the dash itself. Anyway when I have some energy and get all my tuning stuff out to the car to run a session with REW I will post up results here.

FINALLY got some issues I've been having with my passenger side mid figured out. Turns out I had a bad (more like cold solder) solder joint that worked itself loose and would cause static noise from the speaker. Swapped the speaker out with a different one and its working flawlessly. 


Also i've figured out that I will probably just stick with a sealed setup as its doing a awesome job. This means at some point here I will speak with Jay and see what he thinks would be the best way to seal off the port itself.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Tuning update:

Finally got around to doing a retune/measure and here are tonights results:











Now I did do some critical listening after this measurement and did do some adjustments by ear. Mainly from 4K up and 80hz to 1K range as well. Think of it as a teeter totter. Boosted 4K up and did some heavy cuts in the 80hz to 1K range. 

Did a slight adjustment to the TA on the driver side and adjusted the subs delay as well. 

Still have some work with the L to R adjustment and overall leveling as you will see with the rew file I have uploaded


Here is the mdat file

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxMTEOhtAe-qdDBBZmxHekpOa28/view?usp=sharing



Now I would love to use the auto EQ option in REW but with the 360.3 the Q only goes from 0.1-6 so I'm not sure if there is a option in REW to limit the amount of Q adjustment you have OR do what you can within that limit. Remeasure and re auto EQ.

Last time I tried it turned out like complete crap. Any suggestions would be welcome on this subject.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Harsh reflections. Havnt read the thread but im guessing your speakers are on the dash. Boost 500hz a bit. See what it sounds like

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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Harsh reflections. Havnt read the thread but im guessing your speakers are on the dash. Boost 500hz a bit. See what it sounds like
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Ya I have the Audible Physics RAM 2a on the dash. 


Passenger Side:










Driver Side:











Aimed towards rear dome light. I did a bunch of critical listening before having Jay do the install/build and this was the best (to the ear stage wise and overall curve). 

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get a dashmat but would require some customization as well as money I can't afford to shell out atm. 


I'll have to give the 500 hz a shot.


EDIT:

Thanks for the suggestion. Messed around with the 500hz area it it helped quite a bit. Definitely reinforced the vocals


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Beckerson1 said:


> Ya I have the Audible Physics RAM 2a on the dash.
> 
> 
> Passenger Side:
> ...


Woot I helped! . Have you ever tried kicks?

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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Woot I helped! . Have you ever tried kicks?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


With a manual trans I would have VERY limited space on the driver side. Would have to fully relocate the fuse panel itself as well. Benefits of having a automatic. You don't have that third pedal and would only have to worry about the fuse panel. 

Now this is where the sedan shines as they have that small window in which can be used for a pillars as it allows for more distance between the speakers L to R and eliminates more of the dash itself. 

Before this rendition of my build I had my tweets down in the kicks. Did just fine. Stage was too low though. I wanted to get the most out of one speaker on the dash which is why I went with a tweeterless setup (which btw I'm not missing the tweeter). Plus this allowed me to get most of the vocal range above the dash. Have a set of TM6.5 v1 in .3 cu ft pods in the doors. Which cover a very shallow range. Now they are not fully sealed atm. Consider them semi sealed but there is some cancellation between the front and rear wave. I had them designed to be ported but had issues with spacing between port and enclosure causing some wicked port noise and major resonance issues. Unless I build out a couple more inches, or do external port (which there is room to do so) I'm going to have them fully sealed at some point here. I just have some polyfill in the port to limit airflow. Which its doing quite well considering how much air these drivers can push


This I feel is the cause of the very sharp drop when I originally measured the mids. At about 100hz there was a massive bump (both sides) and dropped sharply after that. Talking a good 10db drop. Hopefully once I can fully seal the pods the low end should improve.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Beckerson1 said:


> With a manual trans I would have VERY limited space on the driver side. Would have to fully relocate the fuse panel itself as well. Benefits of having a automatic. You don't have that third pedal and would only have to worry about the fuse panel.
> 
> Now this is where the sedan shines as they have that small window in which can be used for a pillars as it allows for more distance between the speakers L to R and eliminates more of the dash itself.
> 
> ...


The cool part about kicks is that you can actually aim them directly at the center console with no issues other than having to cross lower. I can get my 3in midrange to hit 3-4khz before they roll off that way. If you want higher. You can aim them more on axis but night impossible on manuals. Some midranges work well im very small enclosures. Specifically neo motor mids that are very small require whats basically enough room to mount the mid and your good. No relocating fuse boxes.

With wide banders. I can definitely see stage height issues with them in kicks. Just dont discount a 3 way kicks in a manual vehicle.

If you model the tm65s sealed. They fall on their face super fast. They arent designed in any way for sealed. 



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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Jscoyne2 said:


> The cool part about kicks is that you can actually aim them directly at the center console with no issues other than having to cross lower. I can get my 3in midrange to hit 3-4khz before they roll off that way. If you want higher. You can aim them more on axis but night impossible on manuals. Some midranges work well im very small enclosures. Specifically neo motor mids that are very small require whats basically enough room to mount the mid and your good. No relocating fuse boxes.
> 
> With wide banders. I can definitely see stage height issues with them in kicks. Just dont discount a 3 way kicks in a manual vehicle.
> 
> ...


I knew going in the tm65 wasn't optimized for anything other than IB. For what they are and how they do in the current setup I am still quite impressed. I don't expect them to do what my sub (s) can handle.

I went into the build knowing the benefits of a 3 way setup and still went with a tweeterless 2 way anyway. This tuning session has been the best outcome I have yet to achieve with the setup. There is a ton of improvement to be had and I'm hoping to give DIRAC a try and see where that leads the system.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Sorry for the skrewed up pics but photobucket has seemed to commit legit suicide as far as their 3rd party hosting privileges go. They want to charge an arm and leg every year to allow for 3rd party posting. IDK if I will just make a new thread or what, unless mods open threads up for editing I can't do much of anything about this thread.


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