# Help me choose a shallow mount 12" sub



## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

If I remove the plastic tray in the trunk of my Subaru Ascent, I've got about a little bit more than 6" depth and still have the ability to close the tray cover.

I'm building a SQ system to be played at mainly "normal" volumes. I'm not trying to recreate rock concert SPL's inside my car. I'd like accuracy but with bass I can feel.

I was going to order a SI BM MK V, but according to Nick, he may or may not produce more of these in the future.

Correct me if I'm wrong when making this statement but it seems I should consider a driver with no pole vent and watch the XMAX, as too much excursion would result in the cone hitting the underside of the trunk tray lid.

So far my two finalists are the JL 12TW3 and the Sundown 12 SD3 D4. This is my first attempt at using winisd so please double check my plots. But here they are:









If these plots were done correctly, the two drivers are very close in output. I don't have the frequency response curves though.

The JL is a bit pricier than the Sundown. And the JL is about 1" less depth requirement.

So which of these would work better for my situation? Has anyone directly compared the two in a listening test? And am I modeling these drivers correctly?

Thank you.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

There are a pair of the SI BM MK IV's being sold here by a trusted seller if that interests you.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> There are a pair of the SI BM MK IV's being sold here by a trusted seller if that interests you.


Saw those too late. They sold like hotcakes lol.

BTW, I updated the winisd graphs using the suggested 0.8 liter box volume for the JL, and the 1.0 liter volume for the Sundown.

The graphs come out nearly identical. I still wonder if I'm doing this graphing thing correctly.


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## robtr8 (Dec 6, 2011)

Kicker has some new L7T's coming out soon.
I've found it's easier to fit a square sub in a tight space.
I'd also look at Morel's Primo sub. Best bang for the buck.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

robtr8 said:


> Kicker has some new L7T's coming out soon.
> I've found it's easier to fit a square sub in a tight space.
> I'd also look at Morel's Primo sub. Best bang for the buck.


The Morel Primo 12 has generally excellent reviews. However it has depth requirement of 5.35" with an Xmax of 0.3". That would just barely make it under my 6" requirement but it has a pole vent so it can't sit right up against the bottom of the box.

Also when I model it in winisd, it appears to perform not as well as either the aforementioned Sundown or JL in a 1 cubic foot sealed box. Maybe I need to look at ported boxes to get more extension? But whither sound quality?


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## robtr8 (Dec 6, 2011)

I’ve heard the Primo in a T-line box and it sounds great.
Ours is in a pretty small box NW Musicar makes specifically for the e92.
Your post said you were looking for an SQ sub and this was the one that came to mind.
It plays fast and musical. Almost as good as the Rainbow Vanadium.
4 Ohm SVC is kind of a bummer though.
No, it doesn’t dig as deep as an Arc Black.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

robtr8 said:


> I’ve heard the Primo in a T-line box and it sounds great.
> Ours is in a pretty small box NW Musicar makes specifically for the e92.
> Your post said you were looking for an SQ sub and this was the one that came to mind.
> It plays fast and musical. Almost as good as the Rainbow Vanadium.
> ...


If I did my winisd modeling right, it has somewhat lower output than the JL or Sundown drivers. But it can be had for a much lower cost. And the reviews are generally very good. I’m going to play with the software and see what kind of extension I can get with a port, although I’m a bit worried on the effect on musicality. 

Thanks for the recommendation!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> If I did my winisd modeling right, it has somewhat lower output than the JL or Sundown drivers. But it can be had for a much lower cost. And the reviews are generally very good. I’m going to play with the software and see what kind of extension I can get with a port, although I’m a bit worried on the effect on musicality.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation!


Morel subs in general sound really good, but require larger box and put put out less output.

Audiomobile would be great sub for you...Budget again? They can be pricy, but worth it. There are 2 8's on sale here now...but maybe they sold too?


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> Morel subs in general sound really good, but require larger box and put put out less output.
> 
> Audiomobile would be great sub for you...Budget again? They can be pricy, but worth it. There are 2 8's on sale here now...but maybe they sold too?


I saw those Audiomobiles. I tried to find specs on them without success. But yeah, they’re a little pricey. 

Does anyone know how much vent space the Morel Primo 12 need? That’s going to be the determining factor on whether it works in my application. 

I may be able to squeeze the larger 1 cu ft box in the rear under the kid. 0.8 cu ft would be more ideal. The 0.5 of the BM MKV would have been perfect ?


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

I don’t know if their speakers would fit, if I wa looking for a shallow sub not already mentioned, Oncore would be at the top of my list.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> TheLex said:
> 
> 
> > If I did my winisd modeling right, it has somewhat lower output than the JL or Sundown drivers. But it can be had for a much lower cost. And the reviews are generally very good. I’m going to play with the software and see what kind of extension I can get with a port, although I’m a bit worried on the effect on musicality.
> ...


Those are mine. Awesome subs


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> miniSQ said:
> 
> 
> > Morel subs in general sound really good, but require larger box and put put out less output.
> ...


Depending on shipping i can work on the price with you


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

Comparing the JL 12TW3 D2 vs Sundown SD-3 12 D2 vs Audiomobile Evo 8, the JL & Sundown appear to have about the same output, while the Audiomobile is way down on output across the spectrum (unless I used winisd incorrectly).


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> Comparing the JL 12TW3 D2 vs Sundown SD-3 12 D2 vs Audiomobile Evo 8, the JL & Sundown appear to have about the same output, while the Audiomobile is way down on output across the spectrum (unless I used winisd incorrectly).


something is not right there on the EVo's. Is that for 2 drivers in 1 cuft? Or just 1? I think those drivers want about .35cuft per driver. 

You need to get the QTC to drop down to .7 to be in the right box.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> TheLex said:
> 
> 
> > Comparing the JL 12TW3 D2 vs Sundown SD-3 12 D2 vs Audiomobile Evo 8, the JL & Sundown appear to have about the same output, while the Audiomobile is way down on output across the spectrum (unless I used winisd incorrectly).
> ...


Prettysure that for 1. As 1 single 8 has way less cone area that a 10 or 12. And optimum box size for an evo 8 straight from audiomobile says .33 per


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> something is not right there on the EVo's. Is that for 2 drivers in 1 cuft? Or just 1? I think those drivers want about .35cuft per driver.
> 
> You need to get the QTC to drop down to .7 to be in the right box.


I've got a QTC of 0.24 in a 0.5 cu ft box. Audiomobile specs 0.25 cu ft per driver. When I increase the size of the box the QTC drops.

And yes, I have 2 drivers spec'd.

Am I doing something wrong in winisd?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> I've got a QTC of 0.24 in a 0.5 cu ft box. Audiomobile specs 0.25 cu ft per driver. When I increase the size of the box the QTC drops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.33 per Driver. I spoke to audiomobile

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

ToNasty said:


> .33 per Driver. I spoke to audiomobile
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


So I input 2 drivers with a total box volume of 0.66 cu ft. It barely moved the graph. QTC is 0.221 and FS is 56.94.

I can't figure out if I'm doing something wrong here. Shouldn't the graph be moving dramatically?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> So I input 2 drivers with a total box volume of 0.66 cu ft. It barely moved the graph. QTC is 0.221 and FS is 56.94.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't figure out if I'm doing something wrong here. Shouldn't the graph be moving dramatically?


Try 2 ported. 1.2 cubes with a 4" aero port tined to mid 30s

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

OK I re-entered the TS parameters using the sequence strakele here on DIYMA recommended and let the program calculate the rest of the parameters. Now the plot looks much better, although it still is down from what the JL 12TW3-D4 can do.

Interestingly an el cheapo Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW1200F driver ($108 at Walmart) plots just as well as the JL. I had a local high end install shop recommend the 10" version of the Excelon driver.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> OK I re-entered the TS parameters using the sequence strakele here on DIYMA recommended and let the program calculate the rest of the parameters. Now the plot looks much better, although it still is down from what the JL 12TW3-D4 can do.
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly an el cheapo Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW1200F driver ($108 at Walmart) plots just as well as the JL. I had a local high end install shop recommend the 10" version of the Excelon driver.


Seems like you are looking for whats louder

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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

ToNasty said:


> Seems like you are looking for whats louder
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Heh, no not really. I have a bandpass box in the storage shed with two JL W7's from back in the day if I wanted that lol.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the output from two smaller drivers vs a larger driver. Both the JL and Kenwood drivers have good reviews. I would have liked to order the SI BM MK V, but as of right now Nick states he can't get any more due to issues with minimum order quantities.

I've been to enough loud rock n'roll shows not to want to damage my hearing any more. 

The front stage is going to be an active set up with SI TM65 MK III drivers. Amplification and DSP are the Helix P Six MK 2. 

I have no way to audition these 3 setups so my only recourse is to get advice from forum members and compare the winisd plots.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> ToNasty said:
> 
> 
> > Seems like you are looking for whats louder
> ...


Imay or may not have an si bm mkiv


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> Heh, no not really. I have a bandpass box in the storage shed with two JL W7's from back in the day if I wanted that lol.
> 
> I'm just trying to get a handle on the output from two smaller drivers vs a larger driver. Both the JL and Kenwood drivers have good reviews. I would have liked to order the SI BM MK V, but as of right now Nick states he can't get any more due to issues with minimum order quantities.
> 
> ...


Do not try and power your subs with the P six...it will not work. I tried many subs on mine and there just is not enough power.

All things being equal i would take those 2 EVO 8's all day long over any other subs you have mentioned. But i think you need to add a real sub amp.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'd do the evo8's or the SD3 personally. I know the SD3 is a good SQ option and if Audiomobile is what they were 15 years ago for SQ they should be great.


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## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

I have the sd3 10”. It’s an ok sub. It sounds really good to me but just doesn’t get loud enough. I only have 600 watts going to it. I may try some more power later but now it’s fine. I bought mine used off of here for around 125. I don’t think they are worth paying retail. I also had the rubber surround come unglued but I’ve reglued it and it’s working fine. I contacted sundown 3 or 4 times to help recommend how to fix it but I got no answer or any contact from them. So their customer service is less than adequate.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

ToNasty said:


> Imay or may not have an si bm mkiv


hmmmmmm..........


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> hmmmmmm..........


Just saying

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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> Do not try and power your subs with the P six...it will not work. I tried many subs on mine and there just is not enough power.
> 
> All things being equal i would take those 2 EVO 8's all day long over any other subs you have mentioned. But i think you need to add a real sub amp.


I was wondering about that. It shows channels A-F having 120w @ 4 ohms and 240w bridged, while channels C-F have 230 w @ 2 ohms and 460 w bridged.

So yeah, I can see that it's probably not going to have the kind of power subs need. Fortunately it's got those two extra processed line-level outputs I can run into a sub amp. 

Why would you prefer the EVO 8's? I'm trying to get an understanding of the enthusiasm for those. The winisd plot shows they're not going to deliver as much low bass. F3 on the Evo 8's is 50 Hz. But the F3 of the JL 12TW3 is 38 Hz. So the JL (and the Kenwood Excelon for that matter) will dig a little deeper.

But I also understand that two smaller drivers will respond more quickly so the smaller subs have that as an advantage. However the 2 smaller 8" drivers have a combined surface area of 100 sq in, while the single 12" sub has a surface area of 113 sq in. Yes, I know this is vastly oversimplified!

So please help me understand why the two smaller subs would sound better than the single larger sub, considering the F3 of the larger sub is so much higher.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'd do the evo8's or the SD3 personally. I know the SD3 is a good SQ option and if Audiomobile is what they were 15 years ago for SQ they should be great.


It's funny. The Sundown SD3, JL 12 TW3, and Excelon all plot out almost exactly the same.

Why would you chose the smaller Evo 8's over the other subs?


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

Well whaddya know...

Two Audiomobile Evo 8's in a vented box with a 5x2x28" vent, 1.2 cu ft, tuned to 28 Hz yields an F3 of 27 Hz. It's a nice looking curve. 

But who knows if what I inputed is correct lol?

Also I'm not sure I have the room for a 1.2 cu ft box. Gonna have to remeasure that trunk area.

Gotta figure out the port velocity to make sure there's no chuffing.


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## OCD66 (Apr 2, 2017)

TheLex said:


> I was wondering about that. It shows channels A-F having 120w @ 4 ohms and 240w bridged, while channels C-F have 230 w @ 2 ohms and 460 w bridged.
> 
> So yeah, I can see that it's probably not going to have the kind of power subs need. Fortunately it's got those two extra processed line-level outputs I can run into a sub amp.
> 
> ...



I can't help you with modeling or graphs, but I can attest to the EVO line of subs. I could throw out some fancy terms like tight, solid, revealing...But what I can say is that they are very versatile. In my testing, I ran my 10 up to 150hz just to try to blend with my mids. I think I ended up around 110. Again, I'm no expert, but they are some tasty drivers. I have no need to rattle my plate frame but I do run it loud. JL 750HD on one 10. and I use most of it.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

OCD66 said:


> I can't help you with modeling or graphs, but I can attest to the EVO line of subs. I could throw out some fancy terms like tight, solid, revealing...But what I can say is that they are very versatile. In my testing, I ran my 10 up to 150hz just to try to blend with my mids. I think I ended up around 110. Again, I'm no expert, but they are some tasty drivers. I have no need to rattle my plate frame but I do run it loud. JL 750HD on one 10. and I use most of it.


Thanks for the testimony. The Evo 10 likes another 100 watts of power as compared to the Evo 8. So these things love power. Also the Evo 8 has a Re (resistance) of 1.6 ohm, so the amp had better be very robust. Your Evo 10 is a bit easier to drive at 3.35 ohms.

Fortunately class D amp power is cheap these days.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> Thanks for the testimony. The Evo 10 likes another 100 watts of power as compared to the Evo 8. So these things love power. Also the Evo 8 has a Re (resistance) of 1.6 ohm, so the amp had better be very robust. Your Evo 10 is a bit easier to drive at 3.35 ohms.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately class D amp power is cheap these days.


The evo 8s are both d4 coils

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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

ToNasty said:


> The evo 8s are both d4 coils
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Confused. The T/S parameter sheet you posted shows a RE of 1.6 ohms. Isn't that what you enter into winisd?

Or is this a dual voice coil 4 ohm so I enter 4 ohm as the RE? And do I enter the connection as parallel or series?


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## OCD66 (Apr 2, 2017)

TheLex said:


> Your Evo 10 is a bit easier to drive at 3.35 ohms.


It's a dual 4. Figured around 2ohm. I'll measure it tomorrow when I'm in the shop.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Lets get back to the P-Six for a minute...you quoted some specs, and then you quotes dome specs "bridged"...you cannot bridge the P-six channels. I will assume you meant to say 4 ohm load and 2ohm load...I think channels 5 and 6 are 120watts per channel at 4 ohm and 240 watts at 2ohm. 

what you could do is run 1 of the EVO 8's on channel 5 and 1 on channel 6.

But lets say you chose a single D4 12, you could not bridge 5 and 6 into a 2ohm load to power the sub.

But you can buy a D2 sub and power 1 VC on channel 5 and 1 voice coil on channel 6.

Why would i choose the Evo 8's? Someone else said it...versatility. They are small, lightweight, can run in tiny sealed boxes and small ported boxes. Plus if you buy them and don't have enough bass, you can easily sell them. 

Try reselling selling a SD. JL sub or a Kenwood sub...not going to happen. here at least


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

Try modeling the Dayton audio 12 inch shallow mount. It's construction is built solid. It gets plenty loud and sounds decent. It's not an audiophile grade subwoofer but handles plenty of power. I'm not sure how deep it digs because my DSP has an undefeatable sub sonic filter.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> Lets get back to the P-Six for a minute...you quoted some specs, and then you quotes dome specs "bridged"...you cannot bridge the P-six channels. I will assume you meant to say 4 ohm load and 2ohm load...I think channels 5 and 6 are 120watts per channel at 4 ohm and 240 watts at 2ohm.
> 
> what you could do is run 1 of the EVO 8's on channel 5 and 1 on channel 6.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing up the channels/power of the P Six. I mistakenly thought the sub channels could be bridged.

The Evo 8's are tempting, but at $350 a pair compared to the Kenwood driver at $108 for the 12", the Kenwood is an outstanding value and the winisd plot shows in a sealed box the Kenwood outperforms the Evo's handsomely. I know I can use the Evo's in a vented box. I'm playing around with that modeling right now.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

Stycker said:


> Try modeling the Dayton audio 12 inch shallow mount. It's construction is built solid. It gets plenty loud and sounds decent. It's not an audiophile grade subwoofer but handles plenty of power. I'm not sure how deep it digs because my DSP has an undefeatable sub sonic filter.


I was looking at the Dayton earlier. It's a fantastic price. But when I model it against the Kenwood, the F3 of the Dayton is 49 Hz vs the Kenwood at 35 Hz. That's quite a difference.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

TheLex said:


> I was looking at the Dayton earlier. It's a fantastic price. But when I model it against the Kenwood, the F3 of the Dayton is 49 Hz vs the Kenwood at 35 Hz. That's quite a difference.


Just be careful because some subs are musical and some are one note wonders. The Dayton fell into the one note category. Just thought I would throw it out there in case it would be louder than the Kenwood.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

Stycker said:


> Just be careful because some subs are musical and some are one note wonders. The Dayton fell into the one note category. Just thought I would throw it out there in case it would be louder than the Kenwood.


Exactly right! I don't want a one note wonder. I'm concerned when I read reviews and the most common phrase is "it hits hard".

I've read that a vented enclosure makes the sub much more difficult to tune, but I have no experience with that.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> Exactly right! I don't want a one note wonder. I'm concerned when I read reviews and the most common phrase is "it hits hard".
> 
> 
> 
> I've read that a vented enclosure makes the sub much more difficult to tune, but I have no experience with that.


Not true at all. Ported is easy. And that kenwood youre looking at will sound hollow if you understand. 

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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

ToNasty said:


> Not true at all. Ported is easy. And that kenwood youre looking at will sound hollow if you understand.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


That's my issue. I'm confused. How does one know it will sound hollow unless I can audition the thing in my car's environment. This is not like home audio where I can typically listen in a showroom and then bring the piece home and audition it with the rest of my equipment in my own room.

How does one judge how a piece will work in my environment? Reviews even on DIYMA tend to be rather short, with general statements like "they sound great" or "I like it a lot". I'm used to reading reviews of home audio equipment with terms like "timbre, air, definition, response, dynamics".


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

TheLex said:


> That's my issue. I'm confused. How does one know it will sound hollow unless I can audition the thing in my car's environment. This is not like home audio where I can typically listen in a showroom and then bring the piece home and audition it with the rest of my equipment in my own room.
> 
> How does one judge how a piece will work in my environment? Reviews even on DIYMA tend to be rather short, with general statements like "they sound great" or "I like it a lot". I'm used to reading reviews of home audio equipment with terms like "timbre, air, definition, response, dynamics".


You mean marketing terms that reviewers work hard to figure out how to say something positive because it is hard enough getting marketing dollars without potentially alienating product companies? 

DIYMA is generally much more focused on SCIENTIFIC data and often "reviews" on DIYMA of the type you mention are often ignored since they don't really provide any data/measurements with which to actually make informed decisions.

Even in home audio, you really can't hear some of the best equipment on the market since it is Internet direct and there really aren't showrooms. You're at that point relying on a bunch of people and their opinions but if paying attention to the right people, you can be pretty assured of making a decent decision. And that's what I'd point to here. If you don't feel you have enough information, go with an established product that gets fairly decent reviews from regulars here or those that compete. For most of the equipment, the install and tuning is much more important than the actual equipment as long as you purchase decent equipment. 

The main shallow subs on the market are the JL 12TW3, SI BM MK V (which I talked to Nick on Friday and should be back in stock at some point), a Pioneer, and a few others. I did a comparison of the JL and the BM MK V for inwall home theater subwoofer offering and the BM MK V was slightly stronger (https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ow-sub-comparison-jl-12tw3-vs-si-bm-mk-v.html) but both performed well. I wouldn't have a problem putting either of those in my car. If you open up to normal depth subs, there are so many great ones that you can just pick one of the ones regularly being recommended such as JL 12W6, SI RM12, Audiofrog GB12, etc. Any of those in the recommended enclosure would be phenomenal assuming the rest of the speakers in your system are up to those standards. And since you mentioned Dayton Audio, they usually put out quality products as well so they should pretty safe but may not quite have the performance of the best subs recommended but they would be very good.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

dgage said:


> You mean marketing terms that reviewers work hard to figure out how to say something positive because it is hard enough getting marketing dollars without potentially alienating product companies?
> 
> DIYMA is generally much more focused on SCIENTIFIC data and often "reviews" on DIYMA of the type you mention are often ignored since they don't really provide any data/measurements with which to actually make informed decisions.
> 
> ...


I don't have extensive experience (as you can tell) in car audio. I have however, spent a lot of time in home audio. And while those terms "air, timbre, definition", etc., can be marketing buzzwords, but I find they do also help to describe in words the aural experience. One of the best systems I ever heard was original master tapes played through an Ampex reel to reel, driven by Manley tubed electronics and played through a modified Infinity IRS Beta speaker system. That was old tech that sounded great! I've also heard great sounding digital via an all Meridian display with their active DSP speakers.

But I've not attended any car audio meets. Most car systems are the boom boom boom type. That's not what I'm looking for. I want to be able to hear the instruments and voices in their proper space. I want to be hear the raspiness of Stevie Nick's voice and feel she's standing 2 feet in front of me. I want to feel the impact, energy and pace of the drums on David Byrne's live performance of Burning Down the House. I've heard one system that made the hairs on my back stand on end, listening to this track: 




Unfortunately I'm stuck with a max of 6" depth including room for linear excursion. We need the room for "stuff" as we haul around the 3 kids. So a shallow sub is my only option.

I've been doing a lot of reading on DIYMA. There are some amazing folks here, including the principals of very respected car audio companies. It's a steep learning curve for me. Heck I just barely learned how to use winisd this week! And yes, I fully realize that while metrics and measurement are important, there are some things that are very subjective. I'm one of those in the tubed electronics and vinyl are more euphonic camp


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

What are you using for source material, front comps and amplification of comps? That is 95% of getting to hear stevie breath. The sub is the least important piece.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> What are you using for source material, front comps and amplification of comps? That is 95% of getting to hear stevie breath. The sub is the least important piece.


Source material is either 320 Kbps MP3 or FLAC.

Front speakers are SI TM65 MKIII's and M25 tweeters.

DSP and Amp are the aforementioned Helix P Six DSP MK2.

The P Six has the option of a Bluetooth module that allows aptX but I don't believe the iphone has aptX.

Helix also makes a USB input for a media player. I think all I would need is a Lightning to USB connector for that module.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> Source material is either 320 Kbps MP3 or FLAC.
> 
> Front speakers are SI TM65 MKIII's and M25 tweeters.
> 
> ...


Yup, i have the USB module with my P-six and the Fiio X5...sounds good, but its not really something i use all that much. Thinking about selling them, but its too cold to pull my P-six out

So P-six will power the sub...you need a single D2 sub to get the most power. if the kenwood is that and you can get it for $108 bucks go for it...worst case is you replace it with the SI sub if you find one.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> Yup, i have the USB module with my P-six and the Fiio X5...sounds good, but its not really something i use all that much. Thinking about selling them, but its too cold to pull my P-six out
> 
> 
> 
> So P-six will power the sub...you need a single D2 sub to get the most power. if the kenwood is that and you can get it for $108 bucks go for it...worst case is you replace it with the SI sub if you find one.


I have an si bm mkiv id be willing to part with when it shows up on Monday 

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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

dgage said:


> You mean marketing terms that reviewers work hard to figure out how to say something positive because it is hard enough getting marketing dollars without potentially alienating product companies?
> 
> DIYMA is generally much more focused on SCIENTIFIC data and often "reviews" on DIYMA of the type you mention are often ignored since they don't really provide any data/measurements with which to actually make informed decisions.
> 
> ...


BTW, I did see that thread you linked to. It's one of the threads that made me give strong consideration to the SI BM MK V. But as your results show, the JL TW3 is no slouch. The advantage of the SI it can fit in a slightly smaller box, which was my consideration for my small shallow space. 

I also like the subs you have on your website I building a couple of 18" Mach V UXL-18 subwoofers right now for my home theater.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> I building a couple of 18" Mach V UXL-18 subwoofers right now for my home theater.


I built a Mach 5 IXL 18 sub myself a hundred years ago...and just recently switched it to a 4 cuft sealed box. Not sure which box you are using, but i am surprised but i like the sealed box even better than the large ported box i had before. here is my build.

https://www.hometheatershack.com/fo...xl-18-3-one-off-non-production-sub-build.html


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> Yup, i have the USB module with my P-six and the Fiio X5...sounds good, but its not really something i use all that much. Thinking about selling them, but its too cold to pull my P-six out
> 
> So P-six will power the sub...you need a single D2 sub to get the most power. if the kenwood is that and you can get it for $108 bucks go for it...worst case is you replace it with the SI sub if you find one.


That's the thing. I'm not sure how useful it is to have the usb module. It's just simpler to run my iphone through my headunit via carplay. The iphone is connected via a cable to the head unit.

Otherwise the other common source I use is Spotify, although currently I'm using the unpaid version at 192 Kbps.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> That's the thing. I'm not sure how useful it is to have the usb module. It's just simpler to run my iphone through my headunit via carplay. The iphone is connected via a cable to the head unit.
> 
> Otherwise the other common source I use is Spotify, although currently I'm using the unpaid version at 192 Kbps.


agreed...i use my android via android auto...easier.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> I built a Mach 5 IXL 18 sub myself a hundred years ago...and just recently switched it to a 4 cuft sealed box. Not sure which box you are using, but i am surprised but i like the sealed box even better than the large ported box i had before. here is my build.
> 
> https://www.hometheatershack.com/fo...xl-18-3-one-off-non-production-sub-build.html


Nice! I'm using DIYSG's Stonehenge ported box.

They'll be used with DIYSG's 1099's, with Volt 8's as the surrounds and atomos speakers.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TheLex said:


> Nice! I'm using DIYSG's Stonehenge ported box.
> 
> They'll be used with DIYSG's 1099's, with Volt 8's as the surrounds and atomos speakers.


Awesome choices, I went with the Denovo 4.0cuft RS-18 Subwoofer Flat pack. Great quality wood and cuts.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

ToNasty said:


> I have an si bm mkiv id be willing to part with when it shows up on Monday
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Hmmmm......vely interesting.

Let me know. Maybe I can use that until Nick makes some more MK V's.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

TheLex said:


> Hmmmm......vely interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know. Maybe I can use that until Nick makes some more MK V's.


Its for sale

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> I went with the Denovo 4.0cuft RS-18 Subwoofer Flat pack. Great quality wood and cuts.


Yes, nice CNC cuts.

I'm going to order a track saw to help with building the car sub box and some 12" mid-bass modules I just ordered.


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## OCD66 (Apr 2, 2017)

OCD66 said:


> It's a dual 4. Figured around 2ohm. I'll measure it tomorrow when I'm in the shop.


Measured the driver. 2.1 ohm with 2 ft of 8ga stinger wire. Pretty much spot on.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

OCD66 said:


> Measured the driver. 2.1 ohm with 2 ft of 8ga stinger wire. Pretty much spot on.


Thank you


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## timps67 (Dec 29, 2012)

TheLex said:


> Yes, nice CNC cuts.
> 
> I'm going to order a track saw to help with building the car sub box and some 12" mid-bass modules I just ordered.


No need for a track saw if you have a good circular saw and router. I hope this is the video I'm thinking of, can't open youtube at work. I built a few of these years ago and still use them for things like sub boxes and built in shelf units. Much cheaper than a track saw and works great for full length rip cuts and crosscuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiSz7kPwFY0


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

timps67 said:


> No need for a track saw if you have a good circular saw and router. I hope this is the video I'm thinking of, can't open youtube at work. I built a few of these years ago and still use them for things like sub boxes and built in shelf units. Much cheaper than a track saw and works great for full length rip cuts and crosscuts.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiSz7kPwFY0


Thanks for the link!

I've been toying with the idea of a homemade fence as well


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## Dbrauny1 (Oct 16, 2018)

Illusion audio c12 will work


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I’m a HT buff and own a home theater subwoofer company (Deep Sea Sound). As a kid my dad, who was in the Army, would drag me to the best stereo store in town when we visited a new city so I was endoctrinated very early. When I was 16 I started in car audio installing systems with subwoofers being my specialty. I installed many systems but very few did I like though the customers were often ecstatic their dual 15 ported subs could make a quarter dance on the sunroof. For my own truck I had a single Boston Acosutics Pro 10 in a sealed enclosure, which was the armrest of my truck.

So I’d say our tastes are probably fairly close though I like high levels of extremely tight, clean bass (my HT 24” subs are flat to 7 Hz IN-ROOM). Somy advice is pretty much the same as in my last post. JL 12W6 is a main stay that would give you very good performance. Slightly better would be the AF GB12 or SI RM-12 or Dynaudio e1200 (expensive) in a sealed enclosure. The SI BM MK V wouldn’t give quite the same output as the previously mentioned subs but still have LOTS of output with 5-600w and play deep and clean while working in a very small enclosure (0.6 cuft sealed). The BM MK IV is similar to the V though with slightly less output, which is still plenty for the majority of enthusiasts. Just make sure you build a sturdy enclosure of the recommend enclosure volume. 

With the subs discussed here, you have the potential to have an elite system, the tune will matter more than the equipment at that point. And I’ve heard the TM-65 mk II and M25 speakers in Nick’s (SI) car and they were very nice. And the P-Six is nice, powers your main speakers, and can process the output for a sub amp so you have a nice system there. Once you get your system done, you can ask on DIYMA to find someone to tune your DSP so your system can reach its full potential.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

dgage said:


> I’m a HT buff and own a home theater subwoofer company (Deep Sea Sound). As a kid my dad, who was in the Army, would drag me to the best stereo store in town when we visited a new city so I was endoctrinated very early. When I was 16 I started in car audio installing systems with subwoofers being my specialty. I installed many systems but very few did I like though the customers were often ecstatic their dual 15 ported subs could make a quarter dance on the sunroof. For my own truck I had a single Boston Acosutics Pro 10 in a sealed enclosure, which was the armrest of my truck.
> 
> So I’d say our tastes are probably fairly close though I like high levels of extremely tight, clean bass (my HT 24” subs are flat to 7 Hz IN-ROOM). Somy advice is pretty much the same as in my last post. JL 12W6 is a main stay that would give you very good performance. Slightly better would be the AF GB12 or SI RM-12 or Dynaudio e1200 (expensive) in a sealed enclosure. The SI BM MK V wouldn’t give quite the same output as the previously mentioned subs but still have LOTS of output with 5-600w and play deep and clean while working in a very small enclosure (0.6 cuft sealed). The BM MK IV is similar to the V though with slightly less output, which is still plenty for the majority of enthusiasts. Just make sure you build a sturdy enclosure of the recommend enclosure volume.
> 
> With the subs discussed here, you have the potential to have an elite system, the tune will matter more than the equipment at that point. And I’ve heard the TM-65 mk II and M25 speakers in Nick’s (SI) car and they were very nice. And the P-Six is nice, powers your main speakers, and can process the output for a sub amp so you have a nice system there. Once you get your system done, you can ask on DIYMA to find someone to tune your DSP so your system can reach its full potential.


Yes, it seems our audio tastes are quite similar. I've been harping quite some time about how much of today's music is overly compressed with the dynamics squeezed to such a narrow range that everything sounds harsh (think Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack).

It's good to know that SI's stuff passes the muster. Reading this forum and others, I could tell that Nick has a passion for producing extraordinary drivers. I'm also impressed by folks like Andy Wehmeyer who come on here and share their knowledge.

I agree - the tune is going to be vital to how the system sounds. Too bad we don't have something like Audyssey XT32 or Dirac Live for the car environment that gets us in the ballpark.

Choosing a sub would be a far easier task if it were not for my depth restriction. As it is, I'm stuck with a shallow sub. Heck, I'm not totally sure the SI BM will exactly fit as the website shows the depth dimension as 7" while the mounting depth is far less at 3.5" (including air gap for pole vent).

I looked on your website. Those 24" subs with the 4000 watt amps are monsters!


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

You won’t find a shallower sub with less airspace requirements than the SI BM series. I just checked the website again and it shows the depth as 3.4”. The only 7” depth I see is the shipping box depth, which is 14”x14”x7”. So if you’re looking for a sub now, I’d suggest buying the BM MK IV used and you could always upgrade to the MK V. There have been several competitors on DIYMA that used the BM MK IV and V, I know Bertholomey did and actually just found his build thread where he put a BM MK IV in the passenger footwell. 

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...s/157534-review-stereo-integrity-bm-mkiv.html
(Footwell construction starts on page 3)


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

dgage said:


> You won’t find a shallower sub with less airspace requirements than the SI BM series. I just checked the website again and it shows the depth as 3.4”. The only 7” depth I see is the shipping box depth, which is 14”x14”x7”. So if you’re looking for a sub now, I’d suggest buying the BM MK IV used and you could always upgrade to the MK V. There have been several competitors on DIYMA that used the BM MK IV and V, I know Bertholomey did and actually just found his build thread where he put a BM MK IV in the passenger footwell.
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...s/157534-review-stereo-integrity-bm-mkiv.html
> (Footwell construction starts on page 3)


Actually I've arranged to buy a SI BM Mk IV from one of our forum members. I suspect it'll be more than enough bass for me. More importantly it will hopefully be musical bass.

I am anxiously waiting for the Mk V. I'll probably order one for my truck when if Nick decides to build them again.

The footwell application has always been an interesting one. But for us, it's no-go with 3 growing boys and a dog. My wife and I need every last bit of footwell we can have! Amazing application though. SI's website states the ideal volume for the BM MK IV is 0.55 cu ft (allowing 0.05 cu ft for the driver itself). That's a very small enclosure indeed.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Deep, clean, musical, and tight so you should be pleased though I look forward to your feedback after installing it. Enjoy!


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

TheLex said:


> ...the ideal volume for the BM MK IV is 0.55 cu ft (allowing 0.05 cu ft for the driver itself). That's a very small enclosure indeed.


0.5 is the minimum, not the recommended. Try 0.8 cu ft.

Also, model an Infinity REF1200S for kicks. It was the closest I found to modeling like the SI BM MK V for ~ $70.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

nyquistrate said:


> 0.5 is the minimum, not the recommended. Try 0.8 cu ft.
> 
> Also, model an Infinity REF1200S for kicks. It was the closest I found to modeling like the SI BM MK V for ~ $70.


You're right on. The two curves are almost identical if the box size for the BM MK IV is at 0.5 cu ft, and the Infinity is at 1.2 cu ft.

However if the boxes are both made at 0.8 cu ft (Infinity recommends 0.75 while SI recommends 0.5 cu ft), then the F3 of the SI is 30 Hz while the F3 of the Infinity is 40 Hz.

I can get the Infinity F3 down to 35 Hz if I increase the size of the box to 1.2 cu ft.

Or I can buy this thing for $75 and use it until Nick releases more SI BM MK V's. The mounting hole and depth are essentially the same. I can build a 0.8 cu ft box and fits both.


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

I bought the SI for my truck and the Infinity for my son's truck. Input the power and verify that you aren't going past XMAX. You won't with the SI but might with any other shallow sub due to less XMAX. If excursion is exceeded then you have three options: decrease box size, lower amp power or use subsonic filter.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

nyquistrate said:


> I bought the SI for my truck and the Infinity for my son's truck. Input the power and verify that you aren't going past XMAX. You won't with the SI but might with any other shallow sub due to less XMAX. If excursion is exceeded then you have three options: decrease box size, lower amp power or use subsonic filter.


Can you describe the differences in the sound between the SI and Infinity subs?

I doubt if I'll ever blow any sub. I just don't listen to music at that kind of volume.

Also, since this system will run through a DSP, for sure I'll be setting a subsonic filter. Why waste amp power trying to produce a signal the driver is incapable of producing?


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

TheLex said:


> Can you describe the differences in the sound between the SI and Infinity subs?
> 
> I doubt if I'll ever blow any sub. I just don't listen to music at that kind of volume.
> 
> Also, since this system will run through a DSP, for sure I'll be setting a subsonic filter. Why waste amp power trying to produce a signal the driver is incapable of producing?


I'm sorry but I don't have either playing yet.


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## ChuckO (Nov 23, 2009)

My $.02 on this matter:

Maybe you just consider a smaller diameter sub vs a 12". If, as you stated, your goals are not to have 'rock concert levels' in your car; then perhaps you may consider an 8" or couple of 8's instead of a 12". 
The 8's require less mounting depth generally than a regular 12". If you have 6" depth, you likely could find a 'regular' (not shallow mount) 8 to fit nicely. 
Also, the options for subs is much more with a regular 8 and the prices vs quality ratio is better, IMO.
My experience with shallow mount subs, i have tried 4 of them from different companies, has not been good as to sound quality. The pioneer shallow mount was literally the worst sounding sub i have ever tried, unlistenable. The JL was ok, but not even as good a regular sub that cost 60% less.
Finally, you don't have a lot of space for a proper enclosure it seems. So putting a lot of power to anything in your enclosure could lead to results that you don't like, ie distortion and resonance (both of which i personally hate).

Just something to think about. Your mileage may vary of course...

Cheers and good luck in your project!


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## DCB305 (Feb 5, 2017)

Anybody tried or heard the Rockford Fosgate T1 12” thin subs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DCB305 (Feb 5, 2017)

DCB305 said:


> Anybody tried or heard the Rockford Fosgate T1 12” thin subs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Crickets... ... ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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