# The "old-school" phenomena. Some questions..



## Biowaste

I'm guilty of it, and a lot of the members here are guilty of it, we dig the hell out of some old school car audio gear.

-- Why do you think this happens? It it as the old saying goes "memories make the heart grow fonder"?

-- Were the amps, subs and processors really that good back in the day compared to today? ...or did you really just hear a good system and let it morph into legendary status in your own mind over the years?

-- How good are the amps and equipment of today compared to the old school?

-- Unfortunately PPI, Soundstream, etc.. aren't what they used to be, someone had to take their place. Who?

-- What old school equipment do you swear by (and perhaps still use)?

-- What equipment coming out in 2008 will you consider badass old school gear in 10-15 years?

-- If you could kill to get your hands on any old school gear, what would it be?

I apologize beforehand if this is a worn-out topic, I just want to hear some of your thoughts on this issue. I love old school ****! 

-Bio


----------



## Mooble

Well, I switching out all my amps for Linear Power if that tells you anything, but most of them are more recent LPs, not the 25 year old ones. The only new amp I ever had though was a DLS A4.

I have a Soundstream Reference Class A 6.0 on my tweeters right now and it's as good as anything I have ever heard.

Build quality on old amps cannot be beaten. Mil-spec parts were the norm back then, not anymore. There are a few out there. Tru definitely goes the extra mile for construction. 

The best stuff of yesteryear sounds as good as the best stuff today, but nostalgia plays a big role. I want all the amps I lusted after when I was young, but couldn't afford. Fortunately they were so well made that they are still around.

I still want to get my hands on some Monolithics. They look like garbage inside, but supposedly so sweet to hear. 

Things like Sinfoni's Desederio, Audison's Venti (though fugly), Genesis class A, and anything by HSS will be classics in 20 years.


----------



## Greg_Canada

i love the raw power and no- BS of my oldschool orions, PPI's, xtants, etc. Also, they just look cool and match the age of my car (89' 4runner with equipment from the early 90's makes it time specific)


----------



## Biowaste

Mooble said:


> I want all the amps I lusted after when I was young, but couldn't afford.


This is a good point. When I was 19, I couldn't afford the Punch 200ix or any PPI Powerclass amps, but I have some on the way as we speak. 

I'd like to pick up an LP, SS, etc.. just to see what all the hype was about back then. That stuff is legendary for a reason.

-Bio


----------



## 6APPEAL

Linear Power!!!!!!!!!!!! I got a bunch of them and am always looking for more.
John


----------



## jimbno1

I am a guy who is guilty of buying old-school equipment. ESX and Macintosh amps, Pioneer P9, etc. That said the reasons for purchasing old school equipment are probably not based in reality. But who wouldn't rather have a 63 Vette versus a 08 Vette. Performance is no contest between the two, but there you will definitely draw more oohs and aahs when you pull up in the 63. It's emotional rather than reasonable. 

But at least older electronic equipment in general can perform as well as new equipment. Especially amplifiers. Not sure about speakers. In my experience the new subs are pretty impressive even compared to my old Soundstream SS-10s (Velvet Hammers). 

I think current top line products from companies like Zapco, Sinfoni, JLAudio, Macintosh, Alpine F1, Rainbow, Seas, Morel, Pioneer ODR, etc. compare favorably with products from any era. 

But I still get worked up when I see an old JBL sub, or PPI Art amp for sale. I have the bug.


----------



## Boostedrex

Mooble said:


> I want all the amps I lusted after when I was young, but couldn't afford. Fortunately they were so well made that they are still around.


I think that this is the reason for a lot of people's old school obsession. I know that it's a BIG driver for me. My two biggest weaknesses are Soundstream Reference and PPI Art series amps.

Me personally, the old school amps are about the only things that I get worked up over. The only exceptions to that are a few of the old school subs like the SS Velvet Hammer, original Cerwin Vega Stroker, and the old Hart subs.

It also seems that there was much more attention to quality construction when it came to the old gear versus today. That's why those amps are still around. I'd be willing to bet that about 75% of today's amps will be dead within 10 years of manufacture. People don't take pride in this craft like the used to IMHO. And the consumer is MUCH more ignorant now than they used to be so why should the big companies care as much? They'll make their money either way.


----------



## MACS

jimbno1 said:


> I am a guy who is guilty of buying old-school equipment. ESX and Macintosh amps, Pioneer P9, etc.......



It's McIntosh.......sorry couldn't let that one by.

As for old vs new McIntosh, the news ones are more efficient and have *much* better crossovers. I have a MC431M 4x100 and the modern version MCC404M 4x100. The MC404M is a much better performing amp. SQ wise I can't tell any difference but the new amp makes more power.


----------



## CHH777

I'm sure nostalgia plays a part in it but I can't bring myself to part with my older amps. Not to mention they can be had for the same price or cheaper than new amps if you're savvy.

My 1st OS amp was a RF 200ix (not DSM). It still plays sub duty and I can't kill this amp. I even have the end caps. 

I found my pre-mitac xtant 604X BNIB for $200 on eGay. It was missing the cover so I got one new for $27.

I was lucky enough to purchase 2 PPI A404s before they went hella-expensive. Awesome SQ amps. I bought a brand new A600.2 on here not too long ago as well and still don't know how I will incorporate it yet.

I deliberately stay away from LP because I would just become another collector/hoarder if I got started down that road. It is a disease I tell ya!


----------



## Mooble

CHH777 said:


> I deliberately stay away from LP because I would just become another collector/hoarder if I got started down that road. It is a disease I tell ya!


Um, yeah and I caught the bug too. Four LPs in the last month! I need help!


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Mooble said:


> Um, yeah and I caught the bug too. Four LPs in the last month! I need help!


I can help, i'll PM you my addy...


----------



## Hixson

I'll bite:

-- Why do you think this happens? It it as the old saying goes "memories make the heart grow fonder"? Nothing sells like nostaligia in Amorica

-- Were the amps, subs and processors really that good back in the day compared to today? Amps, yes, subs and processors prolly not, the 3sixty.2 is more powerful and flexible than an EPX2 for example. 

-- How good are the amps and equipment of today compared to the old school?

-- Unfortunately PPI, Soundstream, etc.. aren't what they used to be, someone had to take their place. Who? JL Audio. They are really the only amps that compare to PPI or Soundstream or even PG. They do their job (make things louder) and that's it.

-- What old school equipment do you swear by (and perhaps still use)? Alpine 7939 or 7949. Sony CDX-C90 PPI Art Series amps, JL Audio W6 subs (original version) I would say my MB Quart (.03 series are best) components but I seem to be smoking mid basses left and right lately.

-- What equipment coming out in 2008 will you consider badass old school gear in 10-15 years? Maybe Alpines iPod media controllers

-- If you could kill to get your hands on any old school gear, what would it be?
Maybe a PPI Ax606.2 or a PG Son of Frank Amn N Stein. Some Quart 8" coaxials, the one with a .03 series mid and QM25HX tweeter.


----------



## Hixson

Damn re-reading this thread makes me wanna bust out a tape of DJ Magic Mike and blast some Kicker C15a's hooked up to a PPI 2350


----------



## JAX

I am guilty of this as well.....I just beleive a 20 year old amp that is still running had to be better than an amp that might be lucky to last 1 yr...

today there is no such thing as a $1200 deck....but in the 90's Sony had no problem with that....

today the a 9255 is considered max and its about $750 new or so.....

its all about perceived worth I guess..


----------



## Greg_Canada

All the amps out there that are are nice as my old school amps cost 3x as much. nothing at bestbuy or futureshop can compare to my amps, and the only ones that do compare, i cant afford... that's why this is DIY...


----------



## MarkZ

Nostalgia plays a big part. But a lot of times it's simply a price concern -- even though there are some kickass amps today that are every bit as good as the amps of yesteryear, they tend to be pretty expensive.

Also, there are more companies these days, and therefore, more crap. And with service the way it is, the stuff is more disposable -- so obviously there's a market for crap.


----------



## Boostedrex

I do think that there are a few companies that are making amps that are every bit as good as the old school stuff, but as mentioned already they are priced considerably higher. And 95% of the amps made today don't have the clean simple lines of the old school gear. That is probably one of the biggest draws for me. I hate overly complicated flashing light, crazy angle cut displays. Amp bling FTL!!


----------



## MACS

MarkZ said:


> ........Also, there are more companies these days, and therefore, more crap. And with service the way it is, the stuff is more disposable -- so obviously there's a market for crap.



More crap is an understatement. Even most of the old school brands that were good have been bought out, moved overseas, or become big box store brands. 

Very few hand built amps these days and like previously mentioned, they ain't cheap. Not that the high end stuff was ever cheap.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

So, I gather that the 'good old' amps are the PPI Arts, LP's, SS's, old HCCA's and Rockford BBQ amps? Any others maybe a/d/s perhaps?

Josh


----------



## Boostedrex

*all mentioned are referring to the old school offerings*: a/d/s, Phoenix Gold, Xtant, HiFonics, ESX, Lanzar, MTX, U.S. Amps, Sony, and U.S. Acoustics all had killer gear. I know that I missed some, but that's the best I could do off the top of my head.


----------



## Dangerranger

The amplifiers I fully agree that top amps from the past are every bit as good as what's available today. Power today is a lot cheaper than it was back then, retail vs. retail I mean. 

CD decks, pretty close top to top IMO, in some cases the older ones are better compared to newer Alpines sacrificing performance for Ipod integration and feature content and such. But compared to a DRZ9255 or Alpine F#1 Status, I'd have to say those top anything from the past.

Speakers, no comparison as far as top of the line today vs. top of the line yesterday. Speakers are the one thing that has advanced. Most of yesteryear's high end can't hang to today's mid-fi in terms of overall performance. Keep in mind most car audio drivers are still stuck in yesteryear in terms of performance, I'm talking absolute top of the line car audio that has pulled from the home and pro markets, like SEAS Lotus (Excel basis), those using Scanspeak Revelators as a basis and similar.

Subwoofers have advanced substantially as well, but their characteristics have swayed to something that makes them a love/hate thing. Basically back in "the day" drivers were designed based on power being very expensive. The focus was higher efficiency drivers, those designed for large boxes or IB usage, whereas today power is relatively cheap and people want smaller boxes to fit in a variety of applications. So now we've swayed toward the small sealed box optimized subwoofer.


----------



## placenta

I'd always go to a car stereo store on the corner of Mathilda and El Camino in Sunnyvale, CA during the late 80's/early 90's. I would always lust after the PPI amps, the Punch 75's, and also the Autotek Hi-Fidelity series. I could never afford them. So I always settled for way less wattage than I really needed. I used to have a PPI 25Wrms x 2 which ran my whole front stage at 2 ohm and sounded so killer. That was back when my Rockford Fosgate Punch tweeter just had an inline cap and I wired it parallel with my mid. LOL..


----------



## Biowaste

Thanks for the responses guys. Yep, things have certainly changed!

10 years ago, a thousand watt rated amp was INSANE. Today it's pretty much standard. But, I'll still be happy with my 600 watts going to subs and perhaps less the older I get, the less loud I like it, but I still enjoy quality sound.

Some amps growing up that I never got to own - PPI (I have some now thanks to members here), Soundstream (will own a Reference someday), some of the more powerful RF Punch amps (100ix, 200ix), and the USA-series US Amps. These were my drool amps of my younger years and now I can finally afford some! 

-Bio


----------



## Oliver

Recent amp is the Zuki Eleet , severly underated 

Needs to stand the test of time !


----------



## BadSS

I bought my first Zed made Hifonic IV back in 1987 - half price demo and that still hurt my wallet back then. Pulled one out of the water that was in a spare-tire well in a junked car back in 1989. Cleaned and dried it out and it has been working ever since. They've been in four cars over the past 19 years. 

I bought some of the last Zed made in the USA Generation X HiFonics 7-years or so ago and stored them for when they were needed. Got tired of waiting for those old HiFonic IVs to crap out and recently replaced them (still working) with the new-old-stock Gen Xs. Man,, the noise floor on these Gen X amps are unreal. I can't hear any noise at zero or near zero volume until I get within inches of the tweeters and even then it is light,,, and wide open there is less noise than most home systems I've heard.

Hopefully I won't have to look at buying amps for another 19 years,, but when I do I hope Zed Audio will still be around making car amps.


----------



## jpsandberg

I really like the old stuff - quality USA hand-made amps that still work today. I have a good collection of PPI art series (the ones with the fin heat sinks) and a bunch of still new-in-the-box lanzar optidrives (the black with gold writing, back when still made in USA and winning lots of competitions). These amps sound great, deliver the power they are rated at (and then some) and LAST!

I am thinking of maybe stepping into the modern age and trying the new Zed Audio stuff. The looks are still kinda old school, and I am guessing they are the quality of yester-year with updates from today. Still hand made in the USA if I'm not mistaken.

For me, I like the old stuff for the simple reason "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" 

Jonathan


----------



## sonic purity

For this very reason, is why Rockford did the 25 to life series. To show the improvements in technology and that they still build em every bit as good and bettter. I love my old punch 150, but it doesnt even come close to my RD Audio 1750.1


----------



## alg_alg

yeah and old school is kinda easier on the wallet too. you get quality that matches the most expensive stuff at a fraction of the price.


----------



## ment

old school amps  ah yes ......


they don't make 'em like they used to .... 


there is this very distinct sonic signature of solid state amps that just won't disappoint

i miss my old RF "batman" amp punch 25w x 4 channel .... its no power freak but it will not disappoint in terms of SQ performance even if set at zero gains  

in fact wouldn't it be better to avoid using gains?


----------



## Sinfoni_USA

I love the old Pre-Mitek Xtant products and of course the PG MS/M Series...

The Xtants were just so original back then.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*For me, some times it has to do with the knowing they did so well for me in the past, and some nostalgia I guess. Where as others it is the stereotype of "they don't make 'em like they used to". *


----------



## Nology

I remember going into a shop and thinking "damn it would be sweet to have a class a 10.0 and a trunk full of mules". Now that I have some $ to spend I own every class a soundstream amp they made. The only newer amp I ever bought was a rockford p4002. it was alright but I love my oldschool. Plus all the new junk isn't made in the US.


----------



## michaelsil1

I believe that some of the Amps made now have surpassed anything built back then. I'm not that familiar with old school stuff but, I think with technology having advanced the new breeds would be smaller and consume less power with at least being equal in SQ to some of the older stuff. I also agree the cost is outrageous look or don't look at the price of the Audison Thesis HV venti.


----------



## Boostedrex

michaelsil1 said:


> I believe that some of the Amps made now have surpassed anything built back then. I'm not that familiar with old school stuff but, I think with technology having advanced the new breeds would be smaller and consume less power with at least being equal in SQ to some of the older stuff. I also agree the cost is outrageous look or don't look at the price of the Audison Thesis HV venti.


Yeah, the Thesis HV venti is pretty expensive. Isn't it like $8K? But after looking at the internals of it at the BBQ and talking to Larry about it's design that thing really is an incredible amp. True art IMHO.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Tn_Audiophile said:


> I love the old Pre-Mitek Xtant products and of course the PG MS/M Series...
> 
> The Xtants were just so original back then.


Mitek has owned Xtant/MTX/Coustic a lot longer than most people seem to realize. Xtant was making excellent stuff for years after Mitek bought them. 

It still amazes me that the Xtant stuff sells so cheaply on ebay these days.


----------



## Nology

WRX/Z28 said:


> Mitek has owned Xtant/MTX/Coustic a lot longer than most people seem to realize. Xtant was making excellent stuff for years after Mitek bought them.
> 
> It still amazes me that the Xtant stuff sells so cheaply on ebay these days.



Ya it does sell for cheap.. I think its mainly because it wasnt as popular as some of the other top brands around. There were very few people running those amps back in the late 90s around here.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Nology said:


> Ya it does sell for cheap.. I think its mainly because it wasnt as popular as some of the other top brands around. There were very few people running those amps back in the late 90s around here.


Xtant was big by my way, mostly because Tweeter and a few other shops carried it. The other thing that baffles me is that it was made by the same guy's who did PPI's arts, and JL's amps.


----------



## tomtomjr

To me if it is handmade, it is old-school. I don't collect much of the automated board amps. It has to be at least partially soldered by hand or I really don't want it. Comes down to being a disposable amp too. If it is handmade, the parts can be changed easily. If it is machine made, it is a real pain to change out parts, so you throw them away. Look inside of a Linear Power amp. Easy to change parts, follow the foil, and very well made. Someone dropped off a Hifonics Zues 20-something series a few months back, and I just couldn't see where to start on the repair. Everything inside was put in by a machine. Absolutely disposable. If you burn it, trash it. The new ones just don't have personality. (meaning an actual person built the amp). When a person builds the amp, that means a person can change parts easily in the amp. The board in the pic below is what I like. Easy to fix, and very well made. OLD SCHOOL AUDIO!!! Just my 2 cents...........


----------



## Dangerranger

WRX/Z28 said:


> Xtant was big by my way, mostly because Tweeter and a few other shops carried it. The other thing that baffles me is that it was made by the same guy's who did PPI's arts, and JL's amps.



I think he's the same guy that did a lot of Soundstream's older stuff too IIRC??


----------



## Hollandaze

I have an old Boss Rev335 amp that I bought 8 years ago. I just checked the bottom for the first time in 8 years, "Made in Korea" (better than "Made in China"). I suppose they suck back then as much as they do right now.


----------



## Fatbloke

I think a lot of the difference is in the budgets the amps were/are made to. The good old school stuff was made to a quality standard, with little regard to price, if it cost an extra $100 to make, it cost an extra £100 to buy. Nowadays things are built to sell at a target market, who have a set disposable income and who will spend a set amount on their audio, regardless of quality. Everything is bought now on price (or at least new it is) so the difference between buying a PG amp and a RF one really does come down to cost, performance then looks (although with some kids it's more cost, looks, performance).

Plus when people talk about the old school gear they don't talk about the stuff you'd have walked past in the local budget auto store, it's more often or not near top of the range for each manufacturer.


----------



## aztec1

My thoughts echo most in this thread. I do find it funny that when most people think of oldschool gear, it always gravitates back to amps 

Personally there are a quite a few reasons: Underrated power, clean looks, no-nonsense design, price/watt ratio, no extraneous lights in my truck cabin, robust build quality. These things are available today, but for thousands of dollars.

How many 20 year old Pyramids do you see on ebay?  They didn't get built with 1% milspec devices like Orion, for instance.


----------



## GlasSman

Gee...I don't know...

<-----
<------

Hint...Hint...


----------



## ca90ss

aztec1 said:


> How many 20 year old Pyramids do you see on ebay?  They didn't get built with 1% milspec devices like Orion, for instance.


Looks like a well built Pyramid to me


----------



## aztec1

ca90ss said:


> Looks like a well built Pyramid to me


Cool! I stand corrected, but I would never have guessed that to be a Pyramid. What's the vintage on that bad boy? Most of the oldschool ones I have seen were black with gold lettering, maybe red? I can't remember exactly.

Call me weird, but another oldschool thing I really love are subs. Before the days of 6" xmax, tiny enclosures, and 1000W power handling. They will have to pry my goldlogo Kickers from my cold, dead hands!


----------



## tomtomjr

That looks like a ZED board. Like the 2075 Fultron Zed board. Looks to have the 5 pin din too.


----------



## ca90ss

It's PPI made. Probably early-mid 90's.


----------



## ca90ss

tomtomjr said:


> Looks to have the 5 pin din too.


It has the din plug but it's hidden behind the end panel.


----------



## aztec1

Well shoot, looks like I have to rethink some of my attitudes about oldschool. Is there any kind of timeline for such things? I'd love to find out some more information about it all.


----------



## tomtomjr

I have drilled out a hole in the plates on those many times back in the day. There were a few amps with the same board. It is rated at 75x2 on the Fultron, and another amp it is 100 x 2. Same board just different specs. Does the amp say Pyramid on it? I didn't see it in the pic... I really like your amp. Can I have it?


----------



## ca90ss

tomtomjr said:


> I have drilled out a hole in the plates on those many times back in the day. There were a few amps with the same board. It is rated at 75x2 on the Fultron, and another amp it is 100 x 2. Same board just different specs. Does the amp say Pyramid on it? I didn't see it in the pic... I really like your amp. Can I have it?


It doesn't say Pryamid on it but I kind of wish it did. This one's rated at 75x2.
You can't have mine but if you really want one...
http://www.qualitycaraudio.com/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=21336


----------



## ChrisB

I am still kicking myself in the ass for letting go of a Gen2 Punch 150 for next to nothing. I even traded a Punch 75 with a friend in 1993 for the 150 because he kept blowing his 8" subs with the 150. 

The dude I sold it to is still using it and is about to install it in his truck! He did offer to sell me back the Generation 1 Kicker Solo-baric that I sold to him with the Punch 150.


----------



## tomtomjr

The Punch 150 / 75 / 45 are some of the best old school amps out there. They made a ton of them. I still have some Gen 1, Gen 2 and the HD series new in the boxes. Plus a lot out of the boxes. Still remember in an 87 Crank it up contest where the guy in front of me had 16 M&M 15's on one Punch 45... For an all around amp, the 45 is one of the best.


----------



## aztec1

tomtomjr said:


> The Punch 150 / 75 / 45 are some of the best old school amps out there. They made a ton of them. I still have some Gen 1, Gen 2 and the HD series new in the boxes. Plus a lot out of the boxes. Still remember in an 87 Crank it up contest where the guy in front of me had 16 M&M 15's on one Punch 45... For an all around amp, the 45 is one of the best.


This didn't happen to be in Pensacola FL did it?!?


----------



## SublimeZ

This is going in my car in the next 2 weeks. I need 2 more channels to go active & it is available. Should do well (bridged to mids), until I can afford matched amps...


----------



## Pantani

I've used my Alpine 7949 and PXA H600 for ages. I love it.

Also the old Rockford Fosgate Punch 100ix is still great.


----------



## DS-21

MarkZ said:


> Nostalgia plays a big part. But a lot of times it's simply a price concern -- even though there are some kickass amps today that are every bit as good as the amps of yesteryear, they tend to be pretty expensive.


That is, IMO, the one good reason. Amps have a very long shelf-life, So there is a good supply out there. Especially with national markets such as the fora and eBay having come on stream. (Well, there's another good reason, which I'll mention below.)



Dangerranger said:


> The amplifiers I fully agree that top amps from the past are every bit as good as what's available today.


If you're just talking about the amplification circuits, I'm inclined to mostly agree. Some newer amps are better in that they're more efficient, but otherwise amps are and have been interchangeable commodity parts for some time. But the extra features are much better now. I can't think of an old amp that has a crossover as excellent and flexible as the one built into a Jello Slash, let alone that DSP in the new Kenwood class-D amps.



Dangerranger said:


> CD decks, pretty close top to top IMO, in some cases the older ones are better compared to newer Alpines sacrificing performance for Ipod integration and feature content and such. But compared to a DRZ9255 or Alpine F#1 Status, I'd have to say those top anything from the past.


Signal processing is the only improvement. Otherwise, they're commodity parts too, and have been for quite a while. Run with processing off, neither of those heads would sound a smidgen different from my ca. 1994 Denon DCT-950r. Which I kept because, unlike most aftermarket heads then and now, it does not look like it was designed by a 14 year-old boy with glandular issues.



Dangerranger said:


> Speakers, no comparison as far as top of the line today vs. top of the line yesterday. Speakers are the one thing that has advanced.


For the most part. There's nothing marketed to car-fi today that compares to the old British-made KEF KAR 160Q, I don't think. And for that matter, little that will fit in a car that beats them all around. With a couple more generations, the Seas coincident drivers might beat them. But they haven't, yet.

For subwoofers, absolutely. What you can buy on the hobbyist market trounces what's available from most car-fi companies. Many car-fi companies' subs are little improved from 15 years ago, though. It is a complete shock to me that, at the prices routinely charged, linearized-BL motors and shorting rings are considered features rather than obvious inclusions. (True, there's nothing from 15 years ago that would compare to, say, a JBL W1xGTi, but woofers with that level of advanced technology employed that spectacularly are tragically rare.)



Tn_Audiophile said:


> I love the old Pre-Mitek Xtant products and of course the PG MS/M Series...
> 
> The Xtants were just so original back then.


Funny, the ur-Xtants (3300 and so on) were the only amps that sounded genuinely bad to me. In several cars, and even in level-matched blind listening! They had a grainyness to them that was rather obvious in comparison to other home and car amps. I wonder if the noise gate circuit wasn't just too primitive. They looked very cool, though.



aztec1 said:


> My thoughts echo most in this thread. I do find it funny that when most people think of oldschool gear, it always gravitates back to amps


One problem is that amps, which are commodity parts, are routinely and sillily fetishized by people who should know better.

IMO, the other reason to run old amps (the first being the cost issue mentioned above) is because you've had them since they were new, and are too smart to get caught up in the idiot amp fetishization that audiophools love to indulge in. That's why in my DS I still run my old A404.2 and Rockford Power 300 MOSFET. They do the job, and the install is already designed to hide them. If they die, they will certainly be replaced by modern, feature-rich, compact class-D units that cost as little as possible.


----------



## finfinder

Amps have gotten more "feature laden" with crossovers pretty much standard these days and some even have built in DSP. The subsonic filter is also now standard. I suspect this is why the 25 to life series did'nt catch on. The standards for amps have changed. Problem is, an amp's main job is simply to amplify the signal without distorting. The classic designs of old did a pretty good job at this, so I don't see a whole lot of real improvement. 

There are new amplifier technologies (class D) and such that draw significantly less current but do they really sound better. 

I'm still using the punch 200 amp I bought almost 20 years ago. Works fine. If/when it dies I'll probably buy a more feature laden model but I don't really expect it to sound any better.

We tend to think that newer has to be better, or at least more advanced, but the wheel is still round after all these thousands of years since its invention. The stealth bomber does state of the art, fantastic things in the sky but still can't take off or land unless it has round wheels. A classic design never goes out of style.


----------



## tomtomjr

Punch 200 Amp from the 80's ? Is it the DSM style or ? If it looks like a first gen Rockford Fosgate I gotta see some pics of it. Does it look like this one with the RF badge (the pic with 2 amps, one on the right is the 200 or II)? Or the style of the first series punch 150 (one in the box)? 
If so, you have a super rare amp. And I will have to work on convincing you I need it more than you. LOL ... Let me know. I am very interested to know. Thanks...


----------



## finfinder

It's a 1991'ish DSM. My first dedicated bass amp. It was love at first thump.


----------



## tomtomjr

I was getting my hopes up. Hoping that you would have one from the early 80's. Had to ask. I am looking for an early 80's Punch/Power II (200) ... Thanks for the reply.


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Funny, the ur-Xtants (3300 and so on) were the only amps that sounded genuinely bad to me. In several cars, and even in level-matched blind listening! They had a grainyness to them that was rather obvious in comparison to other home and car amps. I wonder if the noise gate circuit wasn't just too primitive. They looked very cool, though.
> 
> 
> 
> One problem is that amps, which are commodity parts, are routinely and sillily fetishized by people who should know better.


Man, I thought your argument was always that amps have no "sound" to them. Did you change your mind? or did you fall out of character for a minute?

I've sold, run, installed Xtant's since day 1 for the company, never heard one sound "grainy". To my knowledge, the noise gate was nothing more than an off switch for the outputs when the amp saw no input. It did nothing more than get rid of hiss in between tracks. It was defeatable too btw. Xtant also had an expansion card with the same NGM available. I don't recall any problems with these. There were quite a few different styles of amps, including the highly regarded 2200ix, that included all of these features, and were IASCA fav's for quite a while. IMO they were some of the best sounding, and cleanest amps ever available.

So which is it now, make up your mind. Either amps have no sound to them, and the comment about Xtant's sounding grainy was completely inaccurate, or you just became a hypocrite, and heard a difference between amps. lol

I guess i'm just one of those "Silly people with a fetish who should know better"


----------



## finfinder

WRX/Z28 said:


> IMO they were some of the best sounding, and cleanest amps ever available.



I've got a couple of 2100b's and I agree with that statement.


----------



## SFAJeff

Biowaste said:


> I'm guilty of it, and a lot of the members here are guilty of it, we dig the hell out of some old school car audio gear.
> 
> -- Why do you think this happens? It it as the old saying goes "memories make the heart grow fonder"?
> 
> -- Were the amps, subs and processors really that good back in the day compared to today? ...or did you really just hear a good system and let it morph into legendary status in your own mind over the years?
> 
> -- How good are the amps and equipment of today compared to the old school?
> 
> -- Unfortunately PPI, Soundstream, etc.. aren't what they used to be, someone had to take their place. Who?
> 
> -- What old school equipment do you swear by (and perhaps still use)?
> 
> -- What equipment coming out in 2008 will you consider badass old school gear in 10-15 years?
> 
> -- If you could kill to get your hands on any old school gear, what would it be?
> 
> I apologize beforehand if this is a worn-out topic, I just want to hear some of your thoughts on this issue. I love old school ****!
> 
> -Bio



I think this happens in my case for two reasons. 

First as someone else already said, I already own it, and have owned it since new. In my case a kicker zr360 (original zr, not the black one) and 2 first series 12" solobarics. I also had a RF 4 channel (Cant remember the model) that I sold, it was running some of the old original Diamond Hex components (The ones with the black cones).

Second, why replace my gear when I have not heard anything better. I say this with a bit of irony as I have recently replaced my entire system. I replaced the Diamonds with a set of Dynaudio 240's, which by the way are incredible. The Hex's semed to have more "attack" but the Dyn's are like butter so I count this as a good upgrade. The solos were replaced with a couple ED 13kv2's because I wanted my trunk back and the solos would sound like crap IB. On this one I am torn, I received the ED's a couple weeks ago and threw them in the box the solos were in and... Horrible. I am hoping they wil do better IB and am not too concerned because I only got thme because I wanted to try out IB and they would work and were cheap for a test. Finally O replaced the RF and the Kicker amp with an ED Nin.5 to run the Dyns active. It is not steller my any means but it ounds as good as the RF did running the highs an mids.

I think that speakers have progressed, amps are about on par (If you spend the money), subs I will reserve judgement on, processors are better and the Bling factor is out of control.

If I could kill to get some old school gear I would love to try out a couple Monolithic amps.

Oh yeah, the other reason I love old school is because all my old school gear has ben through 3 totaled cars in my younger days and still works like a champ.


----------



## tomtomjr

SFAJeff said:


> If I could kill to get some old school gear I would love to try out a couple Monolithic amps.


As for old school gear that I don't have, want, and would like for xmas.
Audiomobile amps (only have 2, and want more)
A Sony CDX-7 that works, my 2 are dead (1st disc player with a built in tuner)
A stack of Linear Power 8002's amps
M&M 8 inch clear subs, 
Nakamichi SP-400 plates, 
JBL 595 6x9's
A few sets of Pioneer TSX-8's (box speakers, I have 2 and want more)
Sony RMX-2 Cd changer tuner remote system
Kenwood 999 Cassette Deck
Nakamichi TD-800 cassette
Harrison Labs Drag queen. (not really old, but 10kw is cool)
Orion 1st year 2350gx and 2150gx in blue, not black (super rare color)
I guess I better stop listing these, I will write a book.


----------



## ca90ss

tomtomjr said:


> JBL 595 6x9's



These?
http://imezak.stores.yahoo.net/t595.html


----------



## chefhow

For me its about a few things.
1. When I was in my teens early 20's back in the 80's-early 90's I couldnt afford most of what I lusted after, PPI ProMos, Xtants, Orion HCCA, Soundstreams..... so I bought the cheaper of those lines where avaliable. I ran The Hott Setup amps(Orions), Coustic and Fosgate Punch 45/30's. Now that I am older I can afford to buy what I always wanted.

2. I personally cant stand all the shiny bling and other crap they throw on the amps today.

3. What I want today is no better than what I wanted then so I buy the older for much less.

4. I was always under the impression that it was the speakers and install that made the difference and the amps were just the courriers. Still holds true today so I spend my $$ where it makes more sense to me.

5. I just want them.

So now that I am older, wiser(a matter of opinion)and have more $$ in the bank I buy what makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside like the original PPI ProMos 425 I always wanted or the Audio Arts, Soundstream Ref Series or whatever I see. For me its about having what I never could and now can, and they way it sounds and looks.....


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> Man, I thought your argument was always that amps have no "sound" to them. Did you change your mind? or did you fall out of character for a minute?


Are we taking nominations for Stupid Post of the Year? If so I'd like to nominate the post to which I'm replying.

I never made the argument that all amps sound always sound the same. What I've said, consistently and repeatedly, is that all _competently designed amps_ may as well be considered commodity parts. Incompetently designed amps sound different from competently designed amps. (Another example of an incompetently designed amp - albeit nonflat FR rather than just what was probably a noise issue from all of the complexity in there - is the "high end" Butler Tube Driver.)

Indeed, here's what was actually written: "the ur-Xtants (3300 and so on) were the only amps that sounded genuinely bad to me." Given the rarity of incompetent design in mainstream audio outside of speakers (esoteric boutique audio is, of course, absolutely rife with incompetence) they stood out to me as a "mainstream" line that did something audibly wrong, and did so repeatedly. That indicates a basic unsoundness in their design somewhere. 

I suspect the problems I heard were related to some internal noise issue, because that's usually where a "grainy" or "gritty" sound (when it's real and not the figment of some audio reviewer's over-fertile imagination) comes from. They were not related to install, because I heard several of them (three and four channel models alike) in different cars, compared to both competent car amps and competent home amps. 

I speak only of the 1st generation, 1st and 2nd model year Xtant amps, because those are the only ones I've seen. It's entirely possible that they fixed the problems in later runs. I've never felt any reason to go back and check. Amps are commodities, and they looked cool but not cool enough to make me waste more time when equal or less costly sources of that particular commodity are trivially easy to find. And many of those make connecting wires much easier than the first-gen Xtants did. (If memory serves, one had to lift the shiny case, which had rather sharp edges, to make any connections. I could be wrong about that, given that I'm talking about a piece of gear I last handled probably 15 years ago.)

But if your ear-brain mechanism is insufficiently evolved to resolve those sort of differences in blind, level-matched listening...not my problem.



WRX/Z28 said:


> There were quite a few different styles of amps, including the highly regarded 2200ix, that included all of these features, and were IASCA fav's for quite a while. IMO they were some of the best sounding, and cleanest amps ever available.


Which means, of course, precisely nothing, except that they spent some money on bribing "competitors" to use them.

And audiophools routinely fetishize broken or incompetently designed gear. Nothing new there.


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Indeed, here's what was actually written: "the ur-Xtants (3300 and so on) were the only amps that sounded genuinely bad to me." Given the rarity of incompetent design in mainstream audio outside of speakers (esoteric boutique audio is, of course, absolutely rife with incompetence) they stood out to me as a "mainstream" line that did something audibly wrong, and did so repeatedly. That indicates a basic unsoundness in their design somewhere.
> 
> I suspect the problems I heard were related to some internal noise issue, because that's usually where a "grainy" or "gritty" sound (when it's real and not the figment of some audio reviewer's over-fertile imagination) comes from. They were not related to install, because I heard several of them (three and four channel models alike) in different cars, compared to both competent car amps and competent home amps.


 So wait, you heard something you attribute to being a noise problem, in multiple cars, and in your opinion thought the noise gate to be the issue? Seriously? You seem pretty well educated, do you understand the function of the noise gate? It simply shuts off the outputs when there is no input signal, elminating any chance of hiss, or background noise. 
You were also able to swap the amps with different amps and eliminate the noise? or no? 
How exactly did you compare the Xtant's you heard to a competent home amp? 



DS-21 said:


> I speak only of the 1st generation, 1st and 2nd model year Xtant amps, because those are the only ones I've seen. It's entirely possible that they fixed the problems in later runs. I've never felt any reason to go back and check. Amps are commodities, and they looked cool but not cool enough to make me waste more time when equal or less costly sources of that particular commodity are trivially easy to find. And many of those make connecting wires much easier than the first-gen Xtants did. (If memory serves, one had to lift the shiny case, which had rather sharp edges, to make any connections. I could be wrong about that, given that I'm talking about a piece of gear I last handled probably 15 years ago.)


We all know that connecting wires happens so many times to an amp while it remains in the same car. Those 4 allen screws that hold the cover on definately slowed me down by 30-60seconds if I was having a bad day. 

As far as amps go, how about the fact that you could change crossovers from 12 to 24db, add a 1 band parametric EQ with adjustable frequency and Q, add a remote level control, add a balance line module, and even add a noise gate. All this without the need to run another device, with another set of power wires, and find another place to put it. You could plug any of these cards directly into the amp. 

They were also the first I was aware of that could take a high level input signal directly on the rca's simply by moving jumpers inside the amp. No line output converters. At the time, that was hard to find. 

Anyway, in the hundreds of Xtants that I have listened to, in hundreds of different situations, i've never heard a noise issue, nor any "grainy" quality. 

I was also never aware of xtant providing any payment for anyone to use their equipment. 
The only complaint I ever had about the amp was in regards to how exposed it was to outside elements. The cover did little to protect it, and if the slightest amount of liquid, wire strands, or anything else got into the amp, it could cause issues. This was generally not the norm, since most cars they went in were clean, and custom installs. That's about the only fault I could find with them, and really, it wasn't that big of a deal.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> So wait, you heard something you attribute to being a noise problem, in multiple cars, and in your opinion thought the noise gate to be the issue? Seriously? You seem pretty well educated, do you understand the function of the noise gate? It simply shuts off the outputs when there is no input signal, elminating any chance of hiss, or background noise.


I'm no EE. It's the only thing different on that amp than on many, and it is an extra circuit in the signal. So perhaps I drew a hasty conclusion as to causation. The underlying factor of inferior fidelity, however, remained.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You were also able to swap the amps with different amps and eliminate the noise? or no?


Obviously, given that it wasn't externally driven but innate to the amp.



WRX/Z28 said:


> How exactly did you compare the Xtant's you heard to a competent home amp?


Um, park the car in the garage and run RCAs/speaker leads to an amplifier plugged into the wall. Not exactly rocket science. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> We all know that connecting wires happens so many times to an amp while it remains in the same car. Those 4 allen screws that hold the cover on definately slowed me down by 30-60seconds if I was having a bad day.


Well, I know I left blood on one of those covers, because they were poorly finished.



WRX/Z28 said:


> As far as amps go, how about the fact that you could change crossovers from 12 to 24db, add a 1 band parametric EQ with adjustable frequency and Q, add a remote level control, add a balance line module, and even add a noise gate. All this without the need to run another device, with another set of power wires, and find another place to put it. You could plug any of these cards directly into the amp.


All amounts to jack **** if all of the complexity detracts from sonic fidelity. In truth, it was the immense feature set that first led me to consider them back in the day, and their failure to provide features and quality set me on a stupid "purist" amp path until exposure modern amps that did basically everything the old Xtants did but did so competently. (E.g. Jello Slash-series.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> Anyway, in the hundreds of Xtants that I have listened to, in hundreds of different situations, i've never heard a noise issue, nor any "grainy" quality.


Well, you also don't seem to have put in the efforts to make real sense of your sonic preferences and correlate them to high-resolution measurements, either. So I cannot say I am surprised that your critical listening skills failed you vis a vis these amps. (Also, later ones might be better. Like I said, I only have experience with their first generation.) Many people who think they can hear illusory differences in commodity parts such as competent amps and digital sources are often quite poor at actually identifying real sonic differences....


----------



## Oliver

DS-21 said:


> Um, park the car in the garage and run RCAs/speaker leads to an amplifier plugged into the wall. Not exactly rocket science.


 three ,,, two ,,, one.... Blastoff !


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> I'm no EE. It's the only thing different on that amp than on many, and it is an extra circuit in the signal. So perhaps I drew a hasty conclusion as to causation. The underlying factor of inferior fidelity, however, remained.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, given that it wasn't externally driven but innate to the amp.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, park the car in the garage and run RCAs/speaker leads to an amplifier plugged into the wall. Not exactly rocket science.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I know I left blood on one of those covers, because they were poorly finished.
> 
> 
> 
> All amounts to jack **** if all of the complexity detracts from sonic fidelity. In truth, it was the immense feature set that first led me to consider them back in the day, and their failure to provide features and quality set me on a stupid "purist" amp path until exposure modern amps that did basically everything the old Xtants did but did so competently. (E.g. Jello Slash-series.)
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you also don't seem to have put in the efforts to make real sense of your sonic preferences and correlate them to high-resolution measurements, either. So I cannot say I am surprised that your critical listening skills failed you on vis a vis amps. (Also, later ones might be better. Like I said, I only have experience with their first generation.) Many people who think they can hear illusory differences in commodity parts such as competent amps and digital sources are often quite poor at actually identifying real sonic differences....


Dude, if you parked your car in the garage, ran rca's into your house, that was only half the equation. If you are then going to tell me you ran speaker wires out of your house, and into your car, i'm going to call BS, and shennanigans. There is no way you took the time to do that. 

Also, how am I not making sense of my sonic preferences. You don't seem to make much sense here yourself. Maybe my comprehension isn't up to par (somehow I don't think this is the case) but why would I want to correlate anything to any measurements? The most sensitive and important piece of testing equipment is still strapped to both sides of my head. They're called ears. All the measurements, rta's, modeling programs, fuzz measure, in the world doesn't mean squat if it doesn't sound good to my ears. If they were the end all be all, everyone here on this forum would have the worlds most perfect system, and noone would ever change a single piece of equipment. There would only be one choice for "Perfect sound". I wish we could all just look at sheets of paper, and measurements and pick out our gear. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. 

BTW, guess who was in on the Jello Slash series? Same guy(s) who used to work for Xtant. Bruce McMillan among them. Ever notice the similarity in features and general layout? Ever look at an Xtant M series vs. JL Slash?


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> Dude, if you parked your car in the garage, ran rca's into your house, that was only half the equation. If you are then going to tell me you ran speaker wires out of your house, and into your car, i'm going to call BS, and shennanigans. There is no way you took the time to do that.


Now, now, is it _really_ that difficult to attach some Euroblock connectors to speaker wires in the trunk, and run leads to the CD player and amp in the garage? (I don't remember what amp I had in the garage at the time, but it was either an Adcom GFA-535II or a HK integrated.) It takes less time than it would to unscrew the cover of one of those old Xtants! 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Also, how am I not making sense of my sonic preferences.


If you hold the delusion that competently-designed amps (which is to say, almost all of them, or so many of them that the exceptions become really notable) sound different from one another, then you are not making sense of your sonic preferences. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> but why would I want to correlate anything to any measurements?


Because that's what people with functioning minds do. (You may wish people to haphazardly buy random ****, because that means you have more sales opportunity. The thoughtful music lover will, however, want to learn a little bit.) Also, if you know that certain things that seem to pop up (say, a high-Q out of band resonance in a midbass driver) consistently bother you, maybe you could learn to stay away from stuff that exhibits such traits.



WRX/Z28 said:


> noone would ever change a single piece of equipment.


Well, I do think many people change equipment for no good reason around here all the time. Or, at least, no reason rationally related to actual sound quality.



WRX/Z28 said:


> There would only be one choice for "Perfect sound".


Or nearly infinite choices, at least in commodity parts such as amps and digital sources... 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I wish we could all just look at sheets of paper, and measurements and pick out our gear. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way.


Well, actually, as more than a few of us have tried to explain to you before, once one knows what to look for one can learn quite a lot about a piece of gear based solely on competent measurements. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> BTW, guess who was in on the Jello Slash series? Same guy(s) who used to work for Xtant. Bruce McMillan among them. Ever notice the similarity in features and general layout? Ever look at an Xtant M series vs. JL Slash?


So they got it wrong the first time, and figured things out on subsequent designs. What else are you trying to say here?
(And, as I mentioned, except for the 1st generation Xtant products of which I've written, I've no experience with the brand. I couldn't tell you if the "M series" were that first generation or not.)


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Now, now, is it _really_ that difficult to attach some Euroblock connectors to speaker wires in the trunk, and run leads to the CD player and amp in the garage? (I don't remember what amp I had in the garage at the time, but it was either an Adcom GFA-535II or a HK integrated.) It takes less time than it would to unscrew the cover of one of those old Xtants!
> 
> 
> 
> If you hold the delusion that competently-designed amps (which is to say, almost all of them, or so many of them that the exceptions become really notable) sound different from one another, then you are not making sense of your sonic preferences.
> 
> 
> 
> Because that's what people with functioning minds do. (You may wish people to haphazardly buy random ****, because that means you have more sales opportunity. The thoughtful music lover will, however, want to learn a little bit.) Also, if you know that certain things that seem to pop up (say, a high-Q out of band resonance in a midbass driver) consistently bother you, maybe you could learn to stay away from stuff that exhibits such traits.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I do think many people change equipment for no good reason around here all the time. Or, at least, no reason rationally related to actual sound quality.
> 
> 
> 
> Or nearly infinite choices, at least in commodity parts such as amps and digital sources...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, actually, as more than a few of us have tried to explain to you before, once one knows what to look for one can learn quite a lot about a piece of gear based solely on competent measurements.
> 
> 
> 
> So they got it wrong the first time, and figured things out on subsequent designs. What else are you trying to say here?
> (And, as I mentioned, except for the 1st generation Xtant products of which I've written, I've no experience with the brand. I couldn't tell you if the "M series" were that first generation or not.)


So I'm delusional, along with many others aparently. 

Did you have Xtants in your car? or you would really have me beleive that you did that in someone elses vehicle. I'm sorry, I still don't buy it either way. My BS meter's needle went way off the scale here. 

Who else explained to me that you can completely and perfectly determine how something will sound based on a spec sheet and measurements? Sorry, not buying that one either. Too many variables. Maybe it can help narrow it down some of the time, but I still don't see it as the best method. I'll still stick with my ears. 

I could tell you which car's are fastest around a track based on times, but each car drives differently, and conditions change in real world driving. The fastest car on one track may not be the fastest on another. The times also don't tell you how much steering feedback the driver gets, how easy the car is to pilot it around the track at those speeds. Do you see my point at all here? or are you stuck in the "my way or the highway" mentality?

With all this expertise on setting up the perfect sound system based on measurements, you'd think you'd have a business doing just that and have a line of people 10 blocks long waiting for that perfect sound system.

*Edit BTW, while you're at it, pick me the perfect front stage. I'm still looking.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> So I'm delusional, along with many others aparently.


Yes, that is correct.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Did you have Xtants in your car?


No. I tried out a single Xtant amp (the 3300 model) in my car. Hoped it could replace a PPI A404.2 and AudioControl 24XS. Unfortunately, it couldn't. I also heard three or four of them in other people's cars.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm sorry, I still don't buy it either way. My BS meter's needle went way off the scale here.


You really think it's that much of a stretch to check if one has an amp problem by running wires to a home amplifier? If so, that says quite a lot about you and your establishment. Nothing complimentary, unfortunately. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Who else explained to me that you can completely and perfectly determine how something will sound based on a spec sheet and measurements?


Well, you are of course distorting what I claimed to make it more extreme, but whatever.

Go back to the "Internet sales are killing antequated businesses who don't know how to use modern measurement equipment," or whatever the hell that thread was called. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I could tell you which car's are fastest around a track based on times, but each car drives differently, and conditions change in real world driving. The fastest car on one track may not be the fastest on another. The times also don't tell you how much steering feedback the driver gets, how easy the car is to pilot it around the track at those speeds. Do you see my point at all here? or are you stuck in the "my way or the highway" mentality?


You're talking about something infinitely more complex than taking a simple analog waveform and making it bigger.



WRX/Z28 said:


> With all this expertise on setting up the perfect sound system based on measurements, you'd think you'd have a business doing just that and have a line of people 10 blocks long waiting for that perfect sound system.


If I owned a business that forced me to stay in one place, I'd kill myself. Even though air travel sucks today. Especially for someone who has the stamps in his passport that I do...



WRX/Z28 said:


> *Edit BTW, while you're at it, pick me the perfect front stage. I'm still looking.


Depends on the car, and how much you'll willing to hack up your dash/A-pillars. Also, depends on your willingness to use modern equipment such as Alpine's Audyssey MultEQ box or if you're stuck in the stone age.


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Yes, that is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> No. I tried out a single Xtant amp (the 3300 model) in my car. Hoped it could replace a PPI A404.2 and AudioControl 24XS. Unfortunately, it couldn't. I also heard three or four of them in other people's cars.
> 
> 
> 
> You really think it's that much of a stretch to check if one has an amp problem by running wires to a home amplifier? If so, that says quite a lot about you and your establishment. Nothing complimentary, unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you are of course distorting what I claimed to make it more extreme, but whatever.
> 
> Go back to the "Internet sales are killing antequated businesses who don't know how to use modern measurement equipment," or whatever the hell that thread was called.
> 
> 
> 
> You're talking about something infinitely more complex than taking a simple analog waveform and making it bigger.
> 
> 
> 
> If I owned a business that forced me to stay in one place, I'd kill myself. Even though air travel sucks today. Especially for someone who has the stamps in his passport that I do...
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the car, and how much you'll willing to hack up your dash/A-pillars. Also, depends on your willingness to use modern equipment such as Alpine's Audyssey MultEQ box or if you're stuck in the stone age.


Man, you are a delusional, arrogant, and ridiculous piece of work. 

I do think it's a stretch, and a very convenient way to "prove" yourself correct. The likelyhood that you did that instead of switching to a different car amp is very slim, but if you insist, we'll drop it at that. If you did run new rca's and speaker wire out to a home amp, who's to say your noise problem wasn't due to the wiring in the car? or a grounding problem with your original amp? Also, none of this has anything to do with what anyone does in a shop. BTW, what is it that you do for a living? If you don't mind me asking. You seem to assume that I work in a shop every day. It might surprise you to learn that I don't. You seem to like to attack me on that point (believing I work for a shop every day), which only show's your single mindedness regarding the subject. 



If you think building an amplifier that "takes an analog waveform and makes it bigger" is simple, why don't you build your own? Don't use anyone's commodity parts (amps), get out the soldering iron, etch some circuit boards and make one of those ordinary, all the same, make no difference kind of parts. Seems like you should be able to take some spec's from a spec sheet and make the perfect amp too. 

Who asked what stamps you have in your passport? Was it required to let us know any of this? I doubt anyone care's or is impressed. I'm certainly not, and I'll leave my passport out of it. We're talking car audio here. 

BTW, the "stone age" has some pretty good sounding systems, and at some point or another, you were in the "stone age" yourself, did everything you owned sound terrible 10 years ago? 5 years ago? I wouldn't call the Imprint system the holy grail of car audio. There are plenty of people out there that do not like what any auto-eq/time alignment system does to their car. Even one as advanced as alpines. (I admit, it's a pretty slick piece). There are still people who would rather tweak it themselves, and with good reason. There is no way for the imprint to predict how you would like your system to sound. Being that everyone's hearing is different, I don't think it's the perfect setup for everyone. Do you have this system in your car? I'm curious to know what your setup consists of.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> The likelyhood that you did that instead of switching to a different car amp is very slim, but if you insist, we'll drop it at that. If you did run new rca's and speaker wire out to a home amp, who's to say your noise problem wasn't due to the wiring in the car?


You're trying to diagnose a problem that I discovered 15 years ago, in my own car and others, when I've already figured out the answer: a badly designed amplifier.



WRX/Z28 said:


> BTW, what is it that you do for a living? If you don't mind me asking. You seem to assume that I work in a shop every day. It might surprise you to learn that I don't.


I like the way you tried to trap me with "every day." Your posts have said that you work in an audio shop. How much time you spend there is irrelevant.

As for what I do, it's not terribly relevant to the discussion. But for the record, my current income-producing activities are owning rental properties on three continents and and dabbling in currency speculation. I complain about that idiot, but the fact that Americans were stupid enough to reëlect him in 2004 has made me an awful lot of money, because I knew what American stupidity would do to the dollar...



WRX/Z28 said:


> If you think building an amplifier that "takes an analog waveform and makes it bigger" is simple, why don't you build your own?


Sure, I could follow a cookbook and get a perfectly sonically transparent amplifier. That I don't doubt. But I don't for the same reason I don't make my own computer paper. I'm sure I could learn how to make paper fairly well. But it's much cheaper to mass produce than to hand build, with no loss of function whatsoever. Likewise, it would be a profound waste of my time, effort, and money to DIY an amp. Why sacrifice economies of scale and mass production consistency on what is really just a commodity part?



WRX/Z28 said:


> BTW, the "stone age" has some pretty good sounding systems, and at some point or another, you were in the "stone age" yourself, did everything you owned sound terrible 10 years ago? 5 years ago?


No, but mostly because I got lucky with some speaker choices, eschewed trends that were popular but sonically painful (ankle-biting speakers, under-dash horns), and even when I was a kid and didn't have the internet or other resources to teach me about the truths revealed about audio electronics through subjective same/different listening tests I managed to not get stuck with any of the few lemons out there.

Could I do better now while spending significantly less money and spending much less time tweaking? Absolutely. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I wouldn't call the Imprint system the holy grail of car audio.


No, we're holding out hope that the JBL MS8 will be. 

But seriously, Audyssey's technology is spectacularly good and spectacularly time-efficient. ("Imprint" is a stupid marketing name for a technology that Alpine simply bought. Everything except the MultEQ in their processor seems besides the point.) I use it in my home system, and know first-hand what it does when employed carefully. For people who refuse to advance their knowledge, the ability to get 95% of the way to where someone who really knows what they're doing after weeks of careful iterative critical listening and measurement in about half an hour is a gigantic step forward.



WRX/Z28 said:


> There are plenty of people out there that do not like what any auto-eq/time alignment system does to their car.


Audyssey and conventional "auto-EQ" routines have little in common, of course. It's a far more sophisticated, and well-engineered, animal.



WRX/Z28 said:


> There is no way for the imprint to predict how you would like your system to sound. Being that everyone's hearing is different, I don't think it's the perfect setup for everyone. Do you have this system in your car? I'm curious to know what your setup consists of.


I suppose you're right that some people dislike accurate reproduction. 
As for my setups, both are well-documented here. Feel free to search for them.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX




----------



## chefhow

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


>



PRICELESS!!!!


----------



## michaelsil1

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


>


x2


----------



## WRX/Z28

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


>


I'm guessing this is my cue to shut up since noone agree's with me in the slightest. I'm sure you all have to use the most sophisticated processing out there, and read spec sheets all day. My main point is that you are still holding on to the beleif that you can't acheive excellent sound without going to that full extreme. You are disbeleiving the KISS theory entirely, instead of admitting there are many different ways of acheiving the same goal. That goal being "Make my car sound good to me". I assure you i'm not stuck in the stone age as you suggest, but oppinions vary on that. Also, I only work for a shop 3 days a week because I was asked to. Not that it matters, but I actually work as a service tech for an industry vendor full time otherwise. In all my travels, for every one of you that "needs" to go that intricate, there are 100 that don't. Anyway, I'll be big enough to give up now since my point seems to have fallen on deaf ears.


----------



## audiorailroad

xtant was always on my short list. along with hifonics, orion, ppi,soundstream, linear power and audio art. and years ago the place i worked at sold most of those brands at one time or another. and i never heard a noisy xtant EVER.


----------



## sandfleee

When I was "gearing-up" for my system (still in progress), the first thing I did was purchase a PPI a600.2 (which I ran in the '90's) and a Mcintosh MC444 (which I could never afford then). 

After I made these purchases (and others) I came to the realization that I'm not 20 anymore, and as much as I want SQ and LOVE the older amps, I don't want it at the expense of filling my entire vehicle up with amps and equipment.

I kept the a600.2, as it will fit under a seat, but sold the Mcintosh and alot of the other equipment, and replaced it with Tru 4.75's that have a much smaller footprint. 

Personally, I don't care much for amps with all the "doo-dads" and "gizmo knobs" (lol..) I like an amp that amplifies... but there are clear advantages in todays smaller cars... using on-board X-overs and adjustments can minimize the amount of equipment needed, and possible problems as well. I do believe the crossovers (on quality amps) are of better quality then the older ones that did have them. As I write this, I'm planning my amp-rack layout including a PPI FRX456 X-over, and an EQS, so I will never know how good the Tru X-overs really are...lol.

I still prefer the older amps to the new (most of the time), but finding an older SQ amp that pushes 100X4 and fits under a seat without over-heating isnt easy. Gear is expensive now (just as it was then), but the differences are that newer technology does allow for similar SQ in a smaller area, with fans etc. my amps in the '90's never had, and now I can afford to spend the $ if necessary to get the SQ comperable to yesteryear... Just my 2 cents...


----------



## OldOneEye

I love how everyone says "they are better made then". Rockford use to have people pick up a kit, take it home and put it together and then if it tested within spec, they got paid. Some of the amps people swear up and down (some of the first big 4 channel Power series amps). 

It no different than the cars from Detroit or Germany. A Mercedes was built like a brick ****house because they didn't have the computer modeling to make them like they do now. So they made them as big and heavy as possible. That and they didn't have a QC process in place to make sure they were consistent every time they built it. If you make stuff with a large degree of tolerance, you have to over build them to keep the defects down. The only way to fix that is to bring your tolerances tighter (by using machines to put stuff together, buying parts that have tighter tolerances, using more of a production line, having better tools to design the product, testing the product more on the way out). So while everyone complains that the new stuff is "wimpy", the stuff puts out just as much power, even more reliably for less money.

With that said, I have a soft spot for the old Soundstream MC and DII series of amps. Sure they had turn on click, but they just make me warm and fuzzy think about it.

Juan


----------



## tomtomjr

OldOneEye said:


> Rockford use to have people pick up a kit, take it home and put it together and then if it tested within spec, they got paid. Some of the amps people swear up and down (some of the first big 4 channel Power series amps).
> Juan


Which amps did they sell as a kit? Fosgate started selling car amps in 73. I have everything Fosgate and Rockford Fosgate made from 73 to about 93, and no kit that I know of. I even have Fosgate amps from the 70's new in the box. None were do it at home kits that I know of. Never heard of that before.


----------



## finfinder

Yeah, but the new stuff has no personality. Car audio back in the day was a big, loud, evolving, silicon valley, Harley Davidson , american made type of thing. Now it's just the latest thing from Japan or Korea. The thrill ain't the same. The attachment ain't there. It used to be about something different.

Car amps now go for bells and whistles because there is very little real innovation other than class D; probably the result of fewer independent companies. Now its mostly conglomerates.


----------



## 3.5max6spd

finfinder said:


> Yeah, but the new stuff has no personality. *Car audio back in the day was a big, loud, evolving, silicon valley, Harley Davidson , american made type of thing.* Now it's just the latest thing from Japan or Korea. The thrill ain't the same. The attachment ain't there. It used to be about something different.
> 
> Car amps now go for bells and whistles because there is very little real innovation other than class D. Probably the result of fewer independent companies. Now its mostly conglomerates.


Right on...


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

OldOneEye said:


> I love how everyone says "they are better made then". Rockford use to have people pick up a kit, take it home and put it together and then if it tested within spec, they got paid. Some of the amps people swear up and down (some of the first big 4 channel Power series amps).
> 
> It no different than the cars from Detroit or Germany. A Mercedes was built like a brick ****house because they didn't have the computer modeling to make them like they do now. So they made them as big and heavy as possible. That and they didn't have a QC process in place to make sure they were consistent every time they built it. If you make stuff with a large degree of tolerance, you have to over build them to keep the defects down. The only way to fix that is to bring your tolerances tighter (by using machines to put stuff together, buying parts that have tighter tolerances, using more of a production line, having better tools to design the product, testing the product more on the way out). So while everyone complains that the new stuff is "wimpy", the stuff puts out just as much power, even more reliably for less money.
> 
> With that said, I have a soft spot for the old Soundstream MC and DII series of amps. Sure they had turn on click, but they just make me warm and fuzzy think about it.
> 
> Juan



I have to agree with you, but honestly not many of the newer companies focus on quality its is a lot of Bling, why because that is what sells. I hope some of the new amps last as long as some of the older amps Have. I honestly have a new found respect for the old school stuff, Like the Soundstream MC and D's, PPI Art's, Zapco Studio and old school Reference.

Don't get me wrong there are companies that are build solid amps, DLS, Genesis, Sinfoni, Arc, Tru, Zapco, Audison and some others. Its just amazes me how much time has passed and technology has advanced, and these old battle horse are still able to compete with the best of them. Man, some of these amps are almost 20 years old.

O ya, a well place reply will fix the turn on click on the MC's and D's.


----------



## OldOneEye

tomtomjr said:


> Which amps did they sell as a kit? Fosgate started selling car amps in 73. I have everything Fosgate and Rockford Fosgate made from 73 to about 93, and no kit that I know of. I even have Fosgate amps from the 70's new in the box. None were do it at home kits that I know of. Never heard of that before.


They didn't sell the kit, they paid people to put the amps together at home (they would pick up a kit, build it and then get paid when they brought it back and it worked). 

Juan


----------



## aztec1

How is running your audio through a DSP and a computer and whatever else accurate reproduction? I would be pissed if a band did that in concert, which is the best reproduction of music there is. But are you going to be able to sit at a 60 degree azimuth with time alignment at a concert? Not likely, but if you like the music wouldn't it sound good anyway?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Most old school amps are easy to work on, have unique cosmetics, are durable, and have stood the test of time. They are longevity tested to say the least. Most (not all) offshore amps are throw away items. If it breaks, it's such a hassle to fix, and costs so much compared to a replacement, there is no point to repairing them. Old school stuff generally will have a lower repair bill, and are easier to service.


----------



## tomtomjr

OldOneEye said:


> They didn't sell the kit, they paid people to put the amps together at home (they would pick up a kit, build it and then get paid when they brought it back and it worked).
> 
> Juan


Thanks Juan, I do remember something about the PR-7000 being a garage amplifier. I have one of those and a Fosgate Energizer from the same period. The soldering in them is very old-style. Kind of the soldering you would expect from an average 60's tube radio. Didn't know that they subbed out their work in the early days like that. Thanks for the info...


----------



## jamie456

I guess this post is a little old, but I could not resist. I don't know the series but I worked at a shop that sold xtant and there was a pile of them that were bad waiting to be shipped back. I swapped about four in the month that I was there. They all had problems with popping and channels dropping in and out. I thought they were great till I saw this. I don't know what it was but I did not like how they sounded either. If you wiggled the circuit boards the channels would come in and out and the speakers would pop something horrible. These were the ones with the square chassis and gold screens in the vent holes. I have been an installer since 96 and have not seen anything like that since.

I have all ways been a big fan of the Orion "surfboards", Soundstream, PPI arts, and I will own some one day. I run a old school Sony cdx-c90 in my car and it kills my Alpine w205 as far a SQ. I just miss all the cool bells and whistles the Alpine has.


----------



## WRX/Z28

jamie456 said:


> I guess this post is a little old, but I could not resist. I don't know the series but I worked at a shop that sold xtant and there was a pile of them that were bad waiting to be shipped back. I swapped about four in the month that I was there. They all had problems with popping and channels dropping in and out. I thought they were great till I saw this. I don't know what it was but I did not like how they sounded either. If you wiggled the circuit boards the channels would come in and out and the speakers would pop something horrible. These were the ones with the square chassis and gold screens in the vent holes. I have been an installer since 96 and have not seen anything like that since.
> 
> I have all ways been a big fan of the Orion "surfboards", Soundstream, PPI arts, and I will own some one day. I run a old school Sony cdx-c90 in my car and it kills my Alpine w205 as far a SQ. I just miss all the cool bells and whistles the Alpine has.



I remember some having issues with the Xtants. I know Xtant promptly added a paper to their amps just under the cover, explaining why you shouldn't strip wires over top of the circuit board. Apparently 90% of their failures were due to this one common installation error. They were supposed to be higher end, tweaky, upgradeable amps that came with a 4 year warranty. When properly installed, and kept dirt/debris free, they had 0 issues. They were less idiot proof though, and the fact that the board was more exposed was a major problem when it came to most customers. People do not treat their gear/car nice all the time. Some people need to buy marine audio for their daily driven car... lol


----------



## jamie456

Yeah, If we had a forum for stupid stuff we've seen. The lady that blew 5 different sets of subs in a month, the guy's that blew there subs in one night. The guy's with three sets of tweeters and complaining about not having enough treble. I think that could have been one of the problems I saw. The installers at that shop were terrible which was why I was there only one month. I just got sick of stupid stuff they wanted me to do and I left.


----------



## Spasticteapot

WRX/Z28 said:


> If you think building an amplifier that "takes an analog waveform and makes it bigger" is simple, why don't you build your own? Don't use anyone's commodity parts (amps), get out the soldering iron, etch some circuit boards and make one of those ordinary, all the same, make no difference kind of parts. Seems like you should be able to take some spec's from a spec sheet and make the perfect amp too.


It will annoy you to no end that I say this, but....these days, you can. The reference design for the NatSemi LME49810 transistor driver produces nearly no distortion or noise. It is, however, quite pricey - you could spend $40 just on the four ICs, and you'd still need to have perfectly-matched transistors (which you need to do yourself - prepare to buy six for every two you use!), and you'll need either lots of time or lots of money to produce a low-noise SMPS power supply. 



DS-21 said:


> DS-21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the most part. There's nothing marketed to car-fi today that compares to the old British-made KEF KAR 160Q, I don't think. And for that matter, little that will fit in a car that beats them all around. With a couple more generations, the Seas coincident drivers might beat them. But they haven't, yet.
> 
> 
> 
> The Seas Excel co-ax is no good for automotive use because the waveguide formed by the cone kills off-axis response...which is not good for door-mounting. On the other hand, tweeters that extend beyond the base of the woofer (as in most car-audio designs) don't have this problem.
> 
> However, there's no arguing with the massive drops in distortion afforded by modern drivers. FEMM, a freeware finite-element magnetic modelling program, would have blown the minds of speaker designers in the mid-80s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aztec1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is running your audio through a DSP and a computer and whatever else accurate reproduction? I would be pissed if a band did that in concert, which is the best reproduction of music there is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do realize that they do this all the time, right? All modern soundboards are completely computerized and often feature a large touch-screen LCD, and DSP crossovers by DBX, BBE, Rane, and Turbosound have been around for ages..
> 
> On the subject of romancing the audio industry, I find it to be a lot of bonk. There's no way to design a complicated DSP processor unless you're a huge conglomerate. It's sort of like what happened to speaker design - the companies that could afford the massive cost of buying a computer (or even buying time on someone else's computer) had a huge advantage over those who couldn't.
Click to expand...


----------



## WRX/Z28

Spasticteapot said:


> It will annoy you to no end that I say this, but....these days, you can. The reference design for the NatSemi LME49810 transistor driver produces nearly no distortion or noise. It is, however, quite pricey - you could spend $40 just on the four ICs, and you'd still need to have perfectly-matched transistors (which you need to do yourself - prepare to buy six for every two you use!), and you'll need either lots of time or lots of money to produce a low-noise SMPS power supply.


I really wouldn't call assembling someone elses kit "Designing, and building your own amplifier". I was really referring to starting from scratch and coming up with something on your own. 

I built a kit 12v amplifier when I was 15. I wouldn't say I can design an amp, more that I can follow instructions to a T.


----------



## aztec1

Spasticteapot said:


> ...snip
> 
> You do realize that they do this all the time, right? All modern soundboards are completely computerized and often feature a large touch-screen LCD, and DSP crossovers by DBX, BBE, Rane, and Turbosound have been around for ages..


I'm sure of it, but I was referring more to an "unplugged" type of concert. Like if Steve Gadd ran his drums through a compressor at an acoustic jazz gig.


----------



## jpsandberg

tomtomjr said:


> Thanks Juan, I do remember something about the PR-7000 being a garage amplifier. I have one of those and a Fosgate Energizer from the same period. The soldering in them is very old-style. Kind of the soldering you would expect from an average 60's tube radio. Didn't know that they subbed out their work in the early days like that. Thanks for the info...


Even if made at home or in someone's garage, that still sounds 'American Made' to me - and still made_ by hand _ As long as the amp comes back and still passes the same Quality specs an amp made in-house has to pass, what's the difference? Who knows, maybe the guys making them at home did a better job..

I wil always love my old-school stuff that keeps on going after 15+ solid years of operation. I do agree that they are bigger, heat up more, etc - but why switch when I have had the same exact PPI 2150AM since I bought it new in the earlier 90's? I've been using the same amp running my sub for all these year. I think it was $600 new (?), so that breaks down to something like $40/yr to run my subs, how's that for money well spent?


----------



## SUX 2BU

Old skool is too kool!  I love old gear stuff. Here is why:

- I can afford what I couldn't back then
- I'm much more familiar with it than I am product that is out now
- I feel it was better quality (for most things; technology for example in processors is way better now)
- I like the look of it
- reminds me of the 'golden era' of car audio and sound competitions.

That said, my favorites that I look for the most is Alpine amps and speakers from the late 80s and early 90s and Rockford from the early 90s. I still have my 4080DSM and 100ixDSM amps and will never ever sell them. Had a 40iDSM too, but it got stolen  

Everything I'm installing in my truck is 10 years old or older, except for my processor:

Clarion DRX-9255
Alpine 3048 JDM-only DIN-size spectrum EQ (for display only, output RCAs will not be connected)
Audio Control Epicenter
Audio Control ESP-3
Alto Drive30 processor (NIB)
Alpine 3545 amp on sub
Alpine 3545 amp on midrange
Alpine 3539 amp on midbass
Alpine 3539 amp on tweets
Alpine 3539 amp on center channel (if I put one in) or 2nd set of tweets (if I put them in)
Alpine 6012 reference subwoofer (never used)
B&W 601-series 7" midbass
Canton Pullman 4" mids which might get replaced with my trusty Rockford Power 4" mids if the Pullmans can't keep up
Canton Pullman tweeters
Rockford Splitz tweeters (as 2nd set if installed)
Alpine 8080 alarm with 8322 digital motion sensor, 8305 keybad, etc, etc 

All going into an 85 Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton shortbox. My DSM's are going to sit this one out, along with my Alpine 3401 parametric EQ and matching 3656 electronic 4-way xover.


----------



## j-man

I dig on the old school gear cause, well, cause I am OLD 

I go thru old school gear like crazy. I have only had my car since May of 07 and it has seen: MTX RT4240, PPI A600.2, PPI A404,Planet Audio(? their 5 channel from the mid 90s) and is currently ran by a mid90s Memphis Belle 5 channel  Back in the late 80s and 90s I went thru most of the Fosgate amps. All the early Punch series and DSMs, last series I had were the grey with gold endcaps,whatever they were called. Head units the same way, had a C90 in the car til I couldn't take not being able to see the screen and got my Eclipse 7200mk. I have had many Eclipse and Alpines My first being one of the first pull-outs they offered. Not the infamous 7909, but still probably the best one I have had. It lasted for ever. Kept buying new ones and putting it on a shelf and would always sell the new one and put it back in :laugh: 
Ok, I will shut up now! :rockon:

jman


----------



## GlasSman

aztec1 said:


> How is running your audio through a DSP and a computer and whatever else accurate reproduction? I would be pissed if a band did that in concert, which is the best reproduction of music there is. But are you going to be able to sit at a 60 degree azimuth with time alignment at a concert? Not likely, but if you like the music wouldn't it sound good anyway?


Any live show that sounds good in the audience could be processedand/or controlled by numerous computer controlled devices and you'd_* NEVER*_ know what was going on.

You'd just bob your head at the kick ass sound.


----------



## muppetwagon

Wow! It has been a long time since my last post here on DIY. My absence was a car crash back in mid june of 06 and I was a mess. It seemed I had lost interest in car audio. Now that things are looking better I have a new car (93 NA 300zx) and starting back up again. 

OK, back on topic. The amps I went through in the early 90's compaired to today are of much better build quality then quite a few out now. Kinda makes me sick! :surprised: I am planing on using one Orion 2150xs, two 250xs and one jl audio 500/1 in the next build.

Funny...A guy on 300zxclub.com was selling a whole set of PPI art series for cheap!! They looked great in the pics and sold fast. Too bad I did not have the money at the time


----------



## aztec1

GlasSman said:


> Any live show that sounds good in the audience could be processedand/or controlled by numerous computer controlled devices and you'd_* NEVER*_ know what was going on.
> 
> You'd just bob your head at the kick ass sound.


How true, and I guess there would be no problem if it was done correctly. Hey, if a soundman is good enough to accomplish this, then you bet I'd be bobbing my head!  But in a nice acoustic setting, DSP is blasphemy to me. I want to hear how the drummer tunes his drums, I want to hear fingers plucking a double bass. Sometimes digital enhancement can kill an instrument...


----------



## Spasticteapot

chad said:


> I'll tell you what, as you are suggesting this to people and you find a set of 910B's (rounded edges, metal grilles) or 810B's.
> 
> *I WANT THEM BAD*
> 
> Let me know


I used to be big into the "vintage audio" thing. And then I heard some properly-made modern speakers. 

Wanna buy my Cliffhanger Audio Bulldogs? I need to build something smaller. $1,000/pair - and that's not too bad, considering they were $3,800 in 2002. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I really wouldn't call assembling someone elses kit "Designing, and building your own amplifier". I was really referring to starting from scratch and coming up with something on your own.
> 
> I built a kit 12v amplifier when I was 15. I wouldn't say I can design an amp, more that I can follow instructions to a T.


It's not a kit. NatSemi provides some design guidelines and a reference schematic on the spec sheet, and will sell you the LME49810 integrated circuit. After that, you're on your own - just like the electrical engineers from Sony, Hifonics, Pioneer, and the rest. 

Just like you said: 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Seems like you should be able to take some spec's from a spec sheet and make the perfect amp too.





aztec1 said:


> I'm sure of it, but I was referring more to an "unplugged" type of concert. Like if Steve Gadd ran his drums through a compressor at an acoustic jazz gig.


Compressors have been used everywhere for eons. 



aztec1 said:


> How true, and I guess there would be no problem if it was done correctly. Hey, if a soundman is good enough to accomplish this, then you bet I'd be bobbing my head!  But in a nice acoustic setting, DSP is blasphemy to me. I want to hear how the drummer tunes his drums, I want to hear fingers plucking a double bass. Sometimes digital enhancement can kill an instrument...


No, it can't. Improper digital enhancement certainly can, though. You're most likely used to listening to the sort of rubbish that Yamaha includes on their HT receivers, not the extremely transparent filtering of a modern digital EQ. And, considering that those sound boards can cost $40,000 or more, I'd wager their stuff is a bit nicer than what you're used to. 

Also, please consider that a car is an unspeakably horrible acoustic environment - corners, odd surfaces, and big resonant pieces of glass everywhere. Getting phase and frequency flat is _hard._


----------



## chad

Spasticteapot said:


> I used to be big into the "vintage audio" thing. And then I heard some properly-made modern speakers.
> 
> Wanna buy my Cliffhanger Audio Bulldogs? I need to build something smaller. $1,000/pair - and that's not too bad, considering they were $3,800 in 2002.


I need the low end of the 910 or 810 at the least for this room, it's just a 2 ch rig, no .1 ever. Most who have the 910's and many of the 810 owners take care of them, Of all my current a/d/s lineup and ones int he past I have yet to find a problem with suspension sag or the cone deteriorating, in fact the cones have done amazing and for around here with the humidity cycles, that's FEAT!

I've always liked them and wanted them, you know how that goes, but I would not mind a set of lager Dunlavys or Vandersteens either.


----------



## chad

Spasticteapot said:


> No, it can't. Improper digital enhancement certainly can, though. You're most likely used to listening to the sort of rubbish that Yamaha includes on their HT receivers, not the extremely transparent filtering of a modern digital EQ. And, considering that those sound boards can cost $40,000 or more, I'd wager their stuff is a bit nicer than what you're used to.


Console-wise the midas XL8 is $340,000

but in reality in a concert you will hear everything from DBX480's (which I have recommended on here MANY times since the 4800 has been released) Up to the Good XTA, Dolby, and KT stuff. But in higher quantity. A single 4-in 8 out unit is really not out of the grasp of the enthused competitor...... From what I have seen lately.

I still prefer analog consoles tho


----------

