# Copper or CCA?? whats inside your cable



## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

Since I keep getting these DIYMA misses me notices, I figure I'd stir the pot a little. For those not knowing what CCA is, it is Copper Clad Aluminum. We come right out and state the KLM Kable is made from this instead of OFC (oxygen free copper). Yet a few were upset the subcategory page did not define CCA (we did so in the detailed product description pages). Anyway, we have done some research on who is selling what and how they market it....some of this was on CA.com, some new:

In left to right order - our former eKo Kable 4 Gauge / Raptor 4 Gauge/ KnuKonceptz KLMX Kable / and some "Apex" 4 Gauge 










Looking at the three cables on the right, you'll see some copper and some silver within the wire. The KLM Kable is Copper Clad Aluminum, funny, the two cables next to it have the same coloration/composition.....yet no mention of CCA anywhere on the cables or spools. Keep in mind, NONE of these 4 cables are tinned..... on a tinned cable, it is silver outside(tin) and copper inside the strand. These are the opposite of that, copper outside, silver inside(aluminum). 
The eKo Kable(far left) is 100% bare copper and looking at that model, you see no silver material within the cable. 

It seems these companies are not providing consumers accurate information about the materials used and in addition to that using grossly undersized CCA conductors on the Raptor and "Apex" Cables. Running 80A draw on these cables will create problems. The KLM is rated to a max of 100A, I cant image what might happen using those other two models on a similar load.....

How to spot the metal used in the cable you have? Look at the ends/cross section - tinned copper is silver on the outside and copper in the middle. CCA is the opposite. We did come across Tinned CCA too!! Raptor's blue 4 gauge was made from this. The cross section was almost all silver, only a hint of copper was visible. 

Check the weight 20' of copper 4 gauge should be over 3 pounds - CCA will be about 2 pounds or less depending on quality/strand sizing.

A new addition - Streetwires - has a CCA line on a beautiful website, check it out:
http://www.streetwires.com/products/default.aspx?grp=21

Some how CCA became a technology, instead of a material??

And one final note if you are getting a no name cable - check the foot markings, on two brands their markings were short of 12 inches. It seems a foot in that factory was 10.75"!!! So not only do you get shorted on metal, but now on length too! (please note that is only if the shop selling pulls it using the foot increment on the wire - which happened to us on this project, thus how we discovered such BS)

Anyway, I had to share this. This is the reason KnuKonceptz has made it clear from day one how we made the KLM kable usable by oversizing and stating what materials were used right on the cable. This sort business tactic illustrated above and probably duplicated by many others is exactly what NOT to do.

And a side note, the KLM kable has been upgraded to the KLMX series, which uses an improved, more flexible jacket. its easily 2-3 time more flexible then before. Not like the Kolossus Fleks, but an overall improvement


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Do you oversize the Clad cable because it has a higher resistance thus making effectively the same a a "normal/proper" 4Ga copper wire? Because if so... Kudos!


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

Absolutely, as described on our site. In the example above the white (KLMX)4 gauge cable uses 1666 strands of *34 Gauge* where as standard copper 4 gauge is usually 1666 strands of *36 gauge* That larger stranding pretty much levels the playing field in terms of resistance per foot.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

knukonceptz said:


> Absolutely, as described on our site. In the example above the white (KLMX)4 gauge cable uses 1666 strands of *34 Gauge* where as standard copper 4 gauge is usually 1666 strands of *36 gauge* That larger stranding pretty much levels the playing field in terms of resistance per foot.


Bitchin, out of curosity... does it fit right into a standard 4Ga hole (that I realize are usually a slight bit oversized) or do they need to be pared back a bit (which i also have nop issue with.)


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

Yes, it fits "most" manufactures terminals. I know it works with our set screw terminals but the crimp ones might need to be opened. As you stated, most terminals are already slightly larger then the standard gauge so a minimal amount of work is required


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I had read an article on CCA cable, and what I had read was that a CCA 4 guage was equivalent to a copper 8guage. I understand with the prices of copper that companies are trying to come up with alternatives, but what I had also seen through some other companies, was that a copper 8guage and a CCA 4 guage were very similar in price. If it is fact that 8guage copper and 4guage CCA are similar performance, and similar price, why would I want to use CCA over Copper? Also, What would I do once I get a thicker cable back to my amp? Some amps that are ok with copper 8guage in, can't fit 4guage at all. CCA would require that it be 4 guage I think, so what cost effective route could I use to connect the amp? Lets assume either terminal styles, barrier strip or set screw style.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I had read an article on CCA cable, and what I had read was that a CCA 4 guage was equivalent to a copper 8guage. I understand with the prices of copper that companies are trying to come up with alternatives, but what I had also seen through some other companies, was that a copper 8guage and a CCA 4 guage were very similar in price. If it is fact that 8guage copper and 4guage CCA are similar performance, and similar price, why would I want to use CCA over Copper? Also, What would I do once I get a thicker cable back to my amp? Some amps that are ok with copper 8guage in, can't fit 4guage at all. CCA would require that it be 4 guage I think, so what cost effective route could I use to connect the amp? Lets assume either terminal styles, barrier strip or set screw style.


I would not go so far as to say the 4 is the same as 8, but with CCA the size ceratinly needs to be increased, usually the rule of thumb in home wiring is uppoing it one size as you would use 10Ga CCA as opposed to 12Ga copper for 20A branch circuits.


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

Where was that article? Because that is very wrong. Taking Copper and Aluminum the general rule is 4 gauge aluminum = 6 gauge copper in terms of resistance. CCA is slightly better then solid alumimun. 

And the sole reason for using CCA is the price, just like Regular and Premium gas, both will fuel your car and unless you are running a high perfomance motor (higher compression), you will not notice the difference


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Here's another article I had read. I'm still looking for the first one. http://www.caraudiomag.com/specialf..._wire_vs_copper_clad_aluminum_wire/index.html


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Still looking for an answer to my question also. Let's use an A300.2 Art Series PPI amp as the example. They come with 8guage plugs, and require every bit of that 8 guage. If I were to run a CCA cable, I would need to step up to 4 guage CCA for sure. How would I connect the 4guage CCA to that 8 guage plug?


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

You would use a distribution block or a gauge reducre as the step down. Our KLMX 8 gauge cable though would handle that load, its good for 50A because we oversized it to offset the resistance difference. That is probably where you are getting confused and I cant say I blame you. Looking at the photo im my OP, all those cables are 4 gauge and none are the same conductor size.


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Here's another article I had read. I'm still looking for the first one. http://www.caraudiomag.com/specialf..._wire_vs_copper_clad_aluminum_wire/index.html


From your article:


> Conclusion
> At this point you might be thinking that CCA wire is bad and shouldn't be used, but that's not the case. We've done extensive testing on CCA wire for several manufacturers and our results show that it can work very well for all but the highest current applications. Because of the additional resistance you simply can't substitute the same gauge CCA wire for the traditional gauge copper wire. Our strong recommendation would be to simply use one gauge larger size of the CCA cable than the copper cable.
> 
> That being said, if you compensate for the increased resistance in the CCA cable by going to the next larger gauge size, you'll probably end up with equal or maybe even less resistance than the smaller gauge pure copper. But along with an increase in cable size comes an increase in price. This could mean little difference in bottom line prices between comparable copper and a +1-gauge in CCA, so be aware of what you're buying.


edit - what we've done is the oversizing for you - you do not need a +1 gauge CCA cable. By using larger strands and the same number of them, you get similar performance.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

knukonceptz said:


> You would use a distribution block or a gauge reducre as the step down. Our KLMX cable though would handle that load, its good for 50A because we oversized it to offset the resistance difference. That is probably where you are getting confused and I cant say I blame you. Looking at the photo im my OP, all those cables are 4 gauge and none are the same conductor size.


That's where it all started 

When I asked the OP if it was oversized to compensate for higher resistance.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

So you are stating that your 8guage CCA has the same ESR as another brands 8guage copper? The same goes for 4 guage? The stranding is just a little thicker? Is it 35% thicker? This is was what the article suggested was the difference in resistance.


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

Yes, that is what I am saying - because we used the same number of strands, but THICKER gauged strands, making the cable's conductor area larger and therefore offset the difference in resistance between materials within the cables.

now looking at the first picture , the two red wires are CCA and "4gauge". You'd want to avoid those if you have a 80A load.


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## knukonceptz (Mar 6, 2008)

Let me rephrase that, our cable will have similar resistance per foor of a cable of equal number of stranding when 36 gauge copper is used in the comparison. You can not compare the KLMX cable to our Kolossus, because, again it is oversized copper.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I used Street wires 4 gauge CCA cable that went to a ditro block with two short 8 gauge runs running a JBL GTO 75.4 and a GTO 600.1, I never had an issue with it.

Too many people over react over small things like CCA or copper wire.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't consider it a small thing. Proper power supply to your amp is important.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I didn't say having a proper power supply to your amplifiers was a small thing, I think copper vs CCA is a fairly small thing. The difference between the two would not likely cause any noticable inferior performance, just like I don't think speaker wire matters all that much.

Also considering how many people go overboard with their power wire size, like 0 gauge for 1000 watts of power, it matters even less.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

If any of you have any 8Ga CCA and you feel ripped off I need about 30' Color don't matter, i can denote pos and neg on the wire


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

The only issues I've seen with CCA was when the current capacity of the wire was exceeded.

But the fuse should have taken care of that. So I'm not sure what the arguement against CCA actually was.

Maybe from someone that DIDN'T sell it?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Just because it's not causing visible "problems" doesn't mean it's ideal, or the optimal performer. I didn't have any problems with the amp in my head unit either.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

As far as reducing or necking it down [ you lose flow ]

Ever driven on a freeway that was necked down from 3 lanes to one ?

Did the cars go faster in your experience


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

I noticed that CCA is finally defined on the power wire page. Good show.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Why isn't galvanic corrosion an issue anymore?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> Why isn't galvanic corrosion an issue anymore?


I wasnt' ready to get into that 

I use nolox or penetrox on connections with dissimilar metals EVERY TIME, not just reserved for CCA


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

chad said:


> I wasnt' ready to get into that
> 
> I use nolox or penetrox on connections with dissimilar metals EVERY TIME, not just reserved for CCA


Is that a reliable, long term solution? Are crimped connections OK mechanically for aluminum?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> Is that a reliable, long term solution? Are crimped connections OK mechanically for aluminum?


Well, you know me and crimping

It's best to use crimps designed for aluminum wire, BUT I need to do research, a lot of service entrance wire for the home/industry is aluminum, there has got to be info out there for proper termination.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

chad said:


> Well, you know me and crimping
> 
> It's best to use crimps designed for aluminum wire, BUT I need to do research, a lot of service entrance wire for the home/industry is aluminum, there has got to be info out there for proper termination.


Use in homes is why everybody know about galvanic corrosion. During the '70s (I think), many houses were wired with aluminum using copper compatible accessories. Didn't work out too well.


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## ehiunno (Feb 26, 2008)

Interesting, maybe the copper coating prevents this issue? I am not sure, I've never actually heard of it before.

If your worried about the use of CCA, the current handling capacity of the the cable is clearly listed on the knukonceptz website, so its pretty easy to tell wether or not you would need to go a size up, but it seems like it wouldn't be necessary in most cases because of the size.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ehiunno said:


> Interesting, maybe the copper coating prevents this issue? I am not sure, I've never actually heard of it before.


It very well may. That must be the design intention or they would just go with plain aluminum. I wonder what happens when you crush it with a crimp or a compression set screw?


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## ehiunno (Feb 26, 2008)

regarding design goals: From what I have read, it yields better current handling from the copper content, but not *as good* as pure copper, hence the oversizing to make it almost as good as regular copper cable.

When I said I had never heard of it, I meant the issue, not the cable. I actually have a lot of Knu Konceptz KLM CCA cable in my car.

Crimping isn't as strong as regular full copper cable IME, but I do not have the perfect tools to crimp large wires. Using what I have, it doesn't crimp as well as regular copper but YMMV. I always crimp and solder, and it holds well with that method so I have been very pleased with my purchase.

Compression Set Screw's act exactly the same with the KLM as with normal copper cables in my experience. No problems with it holding from me.

I have also used KK's Kompression fittings to hold it, and I'll just say that those things are awesome. My distro blocks all have Kompression fittings and they are such a joy to work with when compared to crimp/solder.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ehiunno said:


> When I said I had never heard of it, I meant the issue, not the cable. I actually have a lot of Knu Konceptz KLM CCA cable in my car.


That's what I thought you meant 



ehiunno said:


> Compression Set Screw's act exactly the same with the KLM as with normal copper cables in my experience. No problems with it holding from me.


What I was curious about was whether or not compression broke the copper coating, exposing the aluminum.



ehiunno said:


> I have also used KK's Kompression fittings to hold it, and I'll just say that those things are awesome. My distro blocks all have Kompression fittings and they are such a joy to work with when compared to crimp/solder.


That's good to know. I may try them the next time I have the need. Pretty partial to blocks that take crimped terminals though (old fashioned that way).


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I've had some KLM installed in a vehicle for almost 2 years with no issues, have not noticed any odd corrosion or loosening at my terminals.

I also do solder ALL crimp terminals whether the wire be copper or aluminum, so that doesn't hurt... but I have also jammed the KLM into an amp set screw terminal nearly 2 years ago and it's still in there working fine


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## ehiunno (Feb 26, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> What I was curious about was whether or not compression broke the copper coating, exposing the aluminum.


ah. I've never noticed it looking any different than after I stripped it, but I'll do a thorough inspection once I get home and report back with the results. As for the crimp, I couldn't tell you whether or not that broke the coating for the obvious reasons.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> As far as reducing or necking it down [ you lose flow ]
> 
> Ever driven on a freeway that was necked down from 3 lanes to one ?
> 
> Did the cars go faster in your experience


Oh I agree with that.

Just being as subjective as possible.

But NPDANG uses a 8 gauge wire from his battery to his trunk...and he's ok.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ehiunno said:


> ah. I've never noticed it looking any different than after I stripped it, but I'll do a thorough inspection once I get home and report back with the results. As for the crimp, I couldn't tell you whether or not that broke the coating for the obvious reasons.


Don't tear your car apart just to satisfy my idle curiosity


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## ehiunno (Feb 26, 2008)

Ha, the tearing apart would have been for the crimped connections, which I'm not about to try to check out. The set screw compression fittings were just sitting in the trunk and it took 5 seconds to check them out.

Anyways, there looked like a few very small spots where the copper coating had worn down, but it took a lot to see them. Very hard to tell as 99% of the coating was still there. So don't over-tighten, of course, and the coating stays fine from what I can tell.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ehiunno said:


> Ha, the tearing apart would have been for the crimped connections, which I'm not about to try to check out. The set screw compression fittings were just sitting in the trunk and it took 5 seconds to check them out.
> 
> Anyways, there looked like a few very small spots where the copper coating had worn down, but it took a lot to see them. Very hard to tell as 99% of the coating was still there. So don't over-tighten, of course, and the coating stays fine from what I can tell.


That's good to know. One of chad's compounds would probably eliminate any potential for problems.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> That's good to know. One of chad's compounds would probably eliminate any potential for problems.


I have this stuff I use for bonding lightning protection, it works between Cu/Al too. I'm looking for the name of it as we speak. It a paste with tons of copper suspended within it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

http://www.iceradioproducts.com/chemtreat.html#2


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

knukonceptz said:


> From your article:
> 
> 
> edit - what we've done is the oversizing for you - you do not need a +1 gauge CCA cable. By using larger strands and the same number of them, you get similar performance.


This is one of the reasons I decided to go with Knukonceptz for my wiring recently. Copper was too pricy, and their claims of upping the strand gauge proved to be accurate. Its EASY to plainly see by looking at their wire compared to many other companies that they are giving you the proper strand count and gauge. Comparing their 4g to my old 4g run, i was shocked at how much smaller the other companies' stuff was.

Quality stuff that I can actually recommend.


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

dont forget to use a protective agent on the end of aluminum wire though. At least in the engine bay.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MidnightCE said:


> dont forget to use a protective agent on the end of aluminum wire though. At least in the engine bay.


Post 41


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

MidnightCE said:


> dont forget to use a protective agent on the end of aluminum wire though. At least in the engine bay.



It shouldn't be needed I wouldn't think, it's not bare aluminum. At least mine never showed any signs of anything funky going on.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Something I know on my country's power grid cable : they use CCA also on the 132KV transport.
KnuKonceptz do supply Dielectric Grease to prevent corrosion, but I never used it and have 0 issues on my system.
Talk about honesty, I think I will give Knu 90% on their product descriptions. Others like Kicker, Streetwires and so on I will only give them 50% as they never state much on their products.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

89grand said:


> It shouldn't be needed I wouldn't think, it's not bare aluminum. At least mine never showed any signs of anything funky going on.


IMHO it still should be coated... but here's the deal, I do **** LONG TERM, in a breaker box... coming in Al, treat it, but a bite into an amp with a set-screw, that's going to be removed before you retire or die, rock it, BUT a treatment is ideal, for lightning protection (I'm at the highest topographical point within a good distance) I use it everywhere. I had an antenna turned to shreads of rice grains al over the back yard just last week... no damage, nothing, not even the radio it was attached to, coax survived nicely too  all my ground rods are copper clad iron, radials are copper clad Al, in the 4 years I have been here we have had MANY hits, 15 counted as a kill (I measure the base of the tower radial spread for a rise)

So, properly treated, with clad, and properly sized Al WILL work, just don't turn your back to in in size and very long term treatment.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

The ends should just turn to aluminum oxide which is inert and acts as a skin on the Aluminum. If it's not in contact with another metal there should be no galvanic corrosion.

But, I still like Chad's paste...it's gooey looking LOL.


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