# New Kenwood Excelon System



## Reko

Hello!

I recently had a 5 channel Kenwood system installed in my 2019 Challenger... it is all Excelon stuff... apparently the best Kenwood makes.

Problem is, it is pretty underwhelming. 

I had to keep the manufacture's head unit, because apparently nothing aftermarket is currently made for a 2019 Challenger.

In fact, they even had to install some sort of resisters to get the head unit to work with the system because it was cutting out at lower volumes.

The volume goes up to 39... but I can't go past 22 without distortion... and anything past 30... the bass literally backs off like it is being throttled.

I'm super unhappy.

The place I took it to pretty much told me they've done all they can do... but it has very little low end... just can't feel it enough, even with the bass on the EQ maxed out.

If I back down the mids and highs, and try to crank it past 22... then the whole system is totally wimpy.

Here are some questions...………………………..

Is the head unit really that important?
Isn't it only being used to send information now that an amp is pushing the system?

I don't know a lot about car audio... but since I have a 5 channel system completely installed now... I'd like to just start swapping out these cheesy Kenwood components for some better quality stuff?

Where should I start?
What's the best/biggest amp.. or should/can I use multiple amps?
What are the best subs?
Will I need additional batteries?
Will I need a bigger alternator?

Thanks for any suggestions!!!!


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## jtrosky

Can you post a little more detail as to what equipment you had installed (brands, models, etc)? I have a 2018 Challenger and upgraded the audio system and the results are fantastic. I even use Kenwood Excelon speakers.  I have the Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C component set (6x9 midbass door speakers and 3.5" coaxial dash speakers) and the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X174 (6.5" rear-deck coaxial speakers).

Need more details as to what stock audio system you started with (base-level system, 6-channel amplified system, etc) and what equipment you had installed. We an go from there...


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## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Can you post a little more detail as to what equipment you had installed (brands, models, etc)? I have a 2018 Challenger and upgraded the audio system and the results are fantastic. I even use Kenwood Excelon speakers.  I have the Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C component set (6x9 midbass door speakers and 3.5" coaxial dash speakers) and the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X714 (6.5" rear-deck coaxial speakers).
> 
> Need more details as to what stock audio system you started with (base-level system, 6-channel amplified system, etc) and what equipment you had installed. We an go from there...


2019 Challenger SXT Head Unit... I was told there aren't any aftermarkets made for this car yet... so it is stock, for now.
Kenwood Excelon XR901-5 amp - 5 channel Amp
2 Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW1241HP subs woofers - 12" pair in a sealed box facing to the rear in trunk
Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C 6x9's pair door speakers
Kenwood Excelon KFCX-174 6.5" pair - back deck
and I believe they put new Kenwood tweeters in the front dashboard.

I basically walked in the shop and said put in the best of everything Kenwood makes, because I always had good luck with Kenwood in the past.

They pretty much told me that was all they could do... so I'm looking to make some upgrades myself.

Now that the system is in place... I'm hoping I can get some tips to tweak this thing in and/or add better components.

I'm not saying it isn't good... just underwhelming... and I'd like a system with some headroom and more control of the sound.


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## jtrosky

This is a long post that is kind of all over the place, but just spewing what info I know about these Challengers and their audio systems...

First, from the factory these cars use 6x9's in the doors, 6.5" in the rear deck and 3.5" speakers in the dash. To me, it would make more sense if they used the KFC-XP690*3*C (instead of XP6902C). The XP6903C contains a 6x9 midbass for the doors as well as a 3.5" coaxial for the dash (basically, a mid and a tweeter). The 6902C only contains a 2.75" "wide range" mid (no tweeter). It's not even a direct fit for the Challenger, while the XP6903C is. Then the 6.5" would go in the rear deck (they come with 6.5" speakers in the rear-deck, not 6x9). I mean they _could_ have customized things to put the different sized speakers in every location, I guess, but it just doesn't make any sense to me that they would do that - at all.... Are you sure they used the KFC-XP6902C??

I'm assuming that your car came with the "base level" audio system (you can tell by seeing if there is any brand-name logo on the door panels such an Alpine, Harman Kardon, etc)? If no brand-name logo on the door panels by the speakers, then it's the base-level, un-amplified system.

Also, do you know how they got the signal for the aftermarket amp from the head-unit? For best results, you'd want to use a PAC Audio AmpPro 4 (v2), which gives you a nice flat low-level signal from the head-unit - which avoids things like bass roll-off, etc. Being that they had to use resistors for the amp, that tells me that they just used the high-level speaker wires to get a signal to the amp, which wouldn't fix the bass roll-of issue (which is why you are losing bass at higher volumes).

In my opinion, the best way to do this would have been with the AmpPro 4 OEM integration unit (v2 for non-amplified systems if you didn't have an amplified "up-level" system from the factory), a 6-channel amp for the 6 speakers in the car (if you want to retain the rear-deck speakers), a monoblock amp for the sub, the KFC-XP690*3*C speakers for the doors/dash and some sort of DSP system. Obviously, this would be way more expensive though. But a DSP will make a HUGE difference in the overall sound quality. I'd also make sure to check the speaker polarity. With my 2018 Challenger, the dash speakers were wired with reverse-polarity from the factory for some reason - so I had to swap the positive/negative wiring. I would make sure ALL of the speakers are wired with the correct polarity.

The 6x9 speaker included in those Kenwood Excelon component kits provide TONS of mid-bass - so you should NOT be lacking midbass if everything is setup properly. They are actually really nice speakers. I don't have any experience with the subwoofer aspect, but I just installed a tiny 8" under-seat sub in mine and I get plenty of bass even from that little thing.

I think a DSP would be a game-changer for your setup - but they require tuning. They allow you set levels of each individual speaker, setup time alignment and EQ (the Helix DSP.3 that I use has 31-bands of EQ _per channel_ - instead of the 3-bands you have for the entire system). Really lets you fine tune things. Even an inexpensive Dayton Audio DSP-408 would make a huge difference with your setup. DSP is where it's at nowadays... I really don't think your speakers are the problem - probably just the overall way things are setup and the lack of a DSP. The stock head-unit is perfectly capable of providing a nice clean signal - but you really want an AmpPro 4 to extract that signal properly... 

What it breaking up at higher volumes - the sub or some of the regular speakers in the car? I have a 75Wx6 amp going to the non-sub speakers and they don't break up at all. Something isn't right....


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## Reko

Awesome info!!!

Thanks for that.

I likely have the speaker information wrong... I was going by memory and was looking at Kenwood's site for the numbers. I have the boxes at home, so I will update my post later tonight or tomorrow to reflect exactly what I have. Sorry about the bad information.

^^^ EDIT: Okay... I updated my post with my system information... I have the same speakers are you!

Bass roll-off and set up sounds exactly right. I am going to take a look at what was used to get the signal, and I'll report back..

I am also going to investigate the Dayton Audio DSP-408... it sounds like I will be getting one of those for sure because right now, I have no control over my over all sound... so I really want an EQ.

That was VERY HELPFUL to get me started thinking about what direction to go... thanks jtrosky!!!!

First order of business... get information on exactly what I have.

Then, the two items you mentioned are probably going to happen as long as they are compatible with my system.

I don't have any price limits on this per se... I've already spent a bunch... and I'll throw a couple more grand at it if that's what it takes. I just want a beast of a system!

I asked the place that installed this if there was anything else I could buy from them to get this sounding better, and they literally said... this was all they could do for me... I didn't expect that.

I feel like I'm on my own now.

Thanks again!!!


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## jtrosky

Glad that was helpful.... I just went through this with my 2018 Challenger, so it's pretty fresh in my mind. 

WIth my 2018, which had the "276W" amplified Alpine system from the factory (that 276W is _max_, NOT _rms_!!), I upgraded to the following:


AmpPro 4 for OEM integration
JL Audio XD600/6v2 amp (6x75W RMS)
Helix DSP.3 DSP
Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903C speakers for doors/dash
Kenwood Excelon KFC-X174 speakers for rear deck
JBL BassPro SL under-seat sub (125W RMS, 8" sub)

The nice part about using a 6-channels of amplification (instead of 4 channels for the (6) non-sub speakers) is that you have complete control over EVERY speaker in the car. Levels, EQ, time alignment, etc. If you only use 4 channels for the 6 speakers, then you have to connect both the door and dash speakers on the same channel - so you have less flexibility. I wanted complete control over EVERY speaker. So I can easily turn down just my dash speakers, if I want (for example).

The Dayton DSP-408 is what I would consider a good "entry-level" DSP (it's about $150). The Helix DSP.3 on the other hand is definitely a level up - but it's also ~$700. They basically do the same thing, but the DSP.3 has higher quality components, better software and is more flexible (31-bands-per-channel EQ instead of 10-bands-per-channel, augmented bass processing, better software, etc, etc, etc). The DSP.3 is just a better unit - hands down. Like I said, you get what you pay for. 

Also, since the AmpPro 4 and Helix DSP.3 both have the ability to use an optical connection, I went optical between the AmpPro and Helix - so one thin optical cable instead of 6 thick RCA cables - plus no noise!! 

Lots of options. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions along the way.

Just keep in mind that a DSP takes time to learn how to tune it. Obviously, folks here are willing to help, but if you don't want to be bothered, you could also find a shop that will tune it all for you.


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## Reko

Awesome.

Yeah... I might go south to Detroit and try to find a shop to look at doing this for me... but first I am going to investigate a bit to see how complicated it would be to do myself.

Where I live, there is literally no one that can help... I've been to 5 different places in a three city area, and they talk a good game, but they never call me back.

This one place got everything installed for me, but like I said... it is definitely in need of a better job of setting it up... they pretty much said that this was the best they could do for me.

I literally got more information from you in a few hours, than I have in a year from the local shops.

Thanks again!


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## Reko

Okay... I just ordered some stuff.

I'm going to try to do this on my own.

I watched a video on the Dayton DSP-408 and they used a hand held oscilloscope and a phase meter... so I ordered all three, so now I'm committed, Lol.

Thanks again jtrosky… I have hope now, that I might get this worked out... but no matter what... I'm going to learn a lot!!!


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## jtrosky

Don't forget about the PAC AmpPro 4 (v2 for non-amplified systems assuming your stock system is non-amplified). Actually, did you confirm if your stock system is amplified or not? It sounded like it wasn't, but then there was some mention of a stock subwoofer. I can't imagine a stock system would come with a subwoofer in the base-level non-amplified system.

I'm not very familiar with the non-amplified stock system, but the stock amplified systems have custom EQ curves to make the crappy stock speakers sound better. They also have bass roll-off at higher volumes. If you just use the speaker-level outputs from the head-unit, all of those problems will still exist - whereas if you use an AmpPro 4, it gives you clean, completely flat, line-level outputs that don't have the custom EQ curve and bass roll-off issues - plus it also helps with warning chime, bluetooth and nav integration.

You have to be careful here though. Depending on whether your stock system is amplified or not will determine which model of the AmpPro 4 you need. So you really need to figure out if your stock system included an amplifier or not (you wouldn't physically be able to see it - it's a tiny amp behind the dash).

There is a lot of "planning" that goes into these upgrades - just be careful that you plan ahead. 

But if you love audio, you'll love tuning and customizing the system yourself - it's a lot of work, but it's very rewarding and you'll learn a TON along the way.


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## VegasStereo

jtrosky said:


> Don't forget about the PAC AmpPro 4 (v2 for non-amplified systems assuming your stock system is non-amplified). Actually, did you confirm if your stock system is amplified or not? It sounded like it wasn't, but then there was some mention of a stock subwoofer. I can't imagine a stock system would come with a subwoofer in the base-level non-amplified system.
> 
> I'm not very familiar with the non-amplified stock system, but the stock amplified systems have custom EQ curves to make the crappy stock speakers sound better. They also have bass roll-off at higher volumes. If you just use the speaker-level outputs from the head-unit, all of those problems will still exist - whereas if you use an AmpPro 4, it gives you clean, completely flat, line-level outputs that don't have the custom EQ curve and bass roll-off issues - plus it also helps with warning chime, bluetooth and nav integration.
> 
> You have to be careful here though. Depending on whether your stock system is amplified or not will determine which model of the AmpPro 4 you need. So you really need to figure out if your stock system included an amplifier or not (you wouldn't physically be able to see it - it's a tiny amp behind the dash).
> 
> There is a lot of "planning" that goes into these upgrades - just be careful that you plan ahead.
> 
> But if you love audio, you'll love tuning and customizing the system yourself - it's a lot of work, but it's very rewarding and you'll learn a TON along the way.


Audio control Lc2i LOC


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## jtrosky

VegasStereo said:


> Audio control Lc2i LOC


Yeah, but that is nowhere near as good as an AmpPro for this type of situation. An AmpPro actually gives you clean line-level outputs directly from the head-unit instead of trying to "undo" the factory EQ "afterwards", which never works as well. Plus, the AmpPro also helps with other OEM integration items (bluetooth, chimes, navi, etc). 

If you're spending this much to upgrade the factory audio system, I wouldn't skimp on this piece - it's much too important. If the AmpPro wasn't available, I could understand it, but if an AmpPro is available for the application, I would use it.

Also, I was wrong about needing the figure out if you need the AP4-CH41 R.2 or the original AP4-CH41. Apparently, the newer AP4-CH41 R.2 completely replaces the original - it will work with both non-amplified and amplified OEM systems. So no decision needed there.


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## VegasStereo

So your not a fan of the audiocontrol LOC?


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## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Don't forget about the PAC AmpPro 4 (v2 for non-amplified systems assuming your stock system is non-amplified). Actually, did you confirm if your stock system is amplified or not? It sounded like it wasn't, but then there was some mention of a stock subwoofer. I can't imagine a stock system would come with a subwoofer in the base-level non-amplified system.
> 
> I'm not very familiar with the non-amplified stock system, but the stock amplified systems have custom EQ curves to make the crappy stock speakers sound better. They also have bass roll-off at higher volumes. If you just use the speaker-level outputs from the head-unit, all of those problems will still exist - whereas if you use an AmpPro 4, it gives you clean, completely flat, line-level outputs that don't have the custom EQ curve and bass roll-off issues - plus it also helps with warning chime, bluetooth and nav integration.
> 
> You have to be careful here though. Depending on whether your stock system is amplified or not will determine which model of the AmpPro 4 you need. So you really need to figure out if your stock system included an amplifier or not (you wouldn't physically be able to see it - it's a tiny amp behind the dash).
> 
> There is a lot of "planning" that goes into these upgrades - just be careful that you plan ahead.
> 
> But if you love audio, you'll love tuning and customizing the system yourself - it's a lot of work, but it's very rewarding and you'll learn a TON along the way.


Okay… I might not be understanding what the PAC AmpPro 4 is for... 
I assumed because the shop I took it to already has the 5 channel system up and running, I wouldn't need this interface.

Also, it says it is made for 2014-2018 vehicles and I have a 2019 so I wonder if this would work with my car?
I believe this was the reason the shop struggled with the installation and had to add some resistors to get it to work.

What specifically is the need for the PAC AmpPro 4?

I have no problem buying it... I am just not understanding.

Thanks again!!!!


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## Truthunter

jtrosky explained it here:



jtrosky said:


> Yeah, but that is nowhere near as good as an AmpPro for this type of situation. An AmpPro actually gives you clean line-level outputs directly from the head-unit instead of trying to "undo" the factory EQ "afterwards", which never works as well. Plus, the AmpPro also helps with other OEM integration items (bluetooth, chimes, navi, etc).


Most factory speaker levels signals are processed (equalized) to work well with the factory speakers. One reason for the factory equalization is to attenuate the low end bass frequencies so as not to cause excessive distortion with the factory speakers. This can be a cause of "unimpressive" aftermarket subwoofer performance. The PAC AmpPRO intercepts the factory signal before this equalization occurs so that a full range pre-amp signal can be sent to aftermarket equipment.

An LOC only converts the factory equalized speaker level signal to pre-amp levels. They do not provide a full range un-equalized signal like the PAC unit can. IMO, an LOC should only be used as a last resort.


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## Reko

Truthunter said:


> jtrosky explained it here:
> 
> 
> 
> Most factory speaker levels signals are processed (equalized) to work well with the factory speakers. One reason for the factory equalization is to attenuate the low end bass frequencies so as not to cause excessive distortion with the factory speakers. This can be a cause of "unimpressive" aftermarket subwoofer performance. The PAC AmpPRO intercepts the factory signal before this equalization occurs so that a full range pre-amp signal can be sent to aftermarket equipment.
> 
> An LOC only converts the factory equalized speaker level signal to pre-amp levels. They do not provide a full range un-equalized signal like the PAC unit can. IMO, an LOC should only be used as a last resort.


Ah... excellent explanation... so then I went back and re-read jtrosky's explanation and he nailed it too.

This stuff is a bit technical... so reading this several times is definitely helpful.

The only thing holding me back from getting the PAC AmpPro 4, is it does not list a 2019 Challenger as compatible.

Question... can I set up the Dayton DSP-408 without the PAC AmpPro 4 and expect decent results until PAC comes out with something for my 2019 model Challenger?

Thanks again!


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## jtrosky

Yeah, I didn't give the best explanation there... @Truhunter did a much better job of explaining. Just to recap:

Factory head-units normally don't have line-level outputs like you get with aftermarket head-units. What they did on your car was to just take the head-unit speaker output wires and wire them up directly to the amplifier (which supports both low-level and speaker-level signals). So anything that is normally sent your speakers from the head-unit is now actually going to the amplifier instead (which is why they needed to use those resistors - so the head-unit doesn't see the low impedance from being connected to an amplifier instead of a speaker as a "bad or disconnected speaker" and cut off the output from the head-unit). Basically, the amp has a LOC built-in already. The problem with this approach is that you still get the bass roll-off at higher volumes and you still get the factory-EQ'd signal from the head-unit, which is setup specifically for the cheap factory speakers.

The AmpPro will actually give you true line-level outputs from your stock head-unit - at that point, you can connect an amp just like you would with an aftermarket head-unit. No factory EQ, no bass roll-off, no amplification of warning chimes, no resistors needed, etc. Also helps with navigation and bluetooth integration and even gives you separate front, rear and sub line-level outputs (and includes a bass knob for the sub outputs as well). It really is a much better solution than the way they have it connected now (or using a LOC to accomplish sort of the same thing).

The AmpPro 4 _does_ list the 2019 Challenger - like I mentioned, you want the R.2 unit:

Now compatible in non-amplified systems!

You can make it work without the AmpPro 4, but the results won't be as good.

Also - you may be able to find an AmpPro 4 on Ebay for less $$$, but you need to make sure you get the R.2 version (assuming you don't have an amplified system).

Can you please confirm whether or not you have a factory amplified system?


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## jtrosky

Also - just to explain how the AmpPro devices work a little more - and how they got them to work with non-amplified Dodge/Chrysler/RAM vehicles....

Typically, these AmpPro devices only work with "premium" factory amplified systems. The only one that supports non-amplified systems is the one for Dodge/Chrysler/RAM vehicles (and it was just updated to allow that). Typically, the AmpPro device "intercepts" the low-level signal that is sent from the head-unit to the factory amplifier (which is why they normally only work with factory _amplified_ systems). However, my understanding is that the head-units installed in the Dodge/Chrysler/RAM vehicles are the same regardless of whether the car came with an amplified or non-amplified system. Basically, these head-units have a way to switch between low-level and speaker-level output signals - and the AmpPro folks figured out how to set the head-unit to the "low level" signal mode even though there is no factory amp installed - and that's how they get a clean low-level signal from the head-unit in the non-amplified systems from Dodge/Chrysler/RAM vehicles. 

It's fantastic that they figured out how to do this with the base-level non-amplified system cars. Really gives those folks with the base-level system a way to get a good, clean, low-level signal in order to add aftermarket amps, etc.

Hope that made sense. 

In comparison, without the AmpPro, you'd have to take the speaker-level output signals and de-EQ the factory EQ (along with signal summing, etc), which isn't an easy task. It's even harder if the car only sends bass frequencies to the door speakers and mids/highs to the dash speakers - then you need to get into signal summing as well. That is why the AmpPro devices are so well-regarded - it gets REAL ugly if you try to accomplish the same thing from the speaker-level outputs (and will never quite be as good).


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## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Yeah, I didn't give the best explanation there... @Truhunter did a much better job of explaining. Just to recap:
> 
> Factory head-units normally don't have line-level outputs like you get with aftermarket head-units. What they did on your car was to just take the head-unit speaker output wires and wire them up directly to the amplifier (which supports both low-level and speaker-level signals). So anything that is normally sent your speakers from the head-unit is now actually going to the amplifier instead (which is why they needed to use those resistors - so the head-unit doesn't see the low impedance from being connected to an amplifier instead of a speaker as a "bad or disconnected speaker" and cut off the output from the head-unit). Basically, the amp has a LOC built-in already. The problem with this approach is that you still get the bass roll-off at higher volumes and you still get the factory-EQ'd signal from the head-unit, which is setup specifically for the cheap factory speakers.
> 
> The AmpPro will actually give you true line-level outputs from your stock head-unit - at that point, you can connect an amp just like you would with an aftermarket head-unit. No factory EQ, no bass roll-off, no amplification of warning chimes, no resistors needed, etc. Also helps with navigation and bluetooth integration and even gives you separate front, rear and sub line-level outputs (and includes a bass knob for the sub outputs as well). It really is a much better solution than the way they have it connected now (or using a LOC to accomplish sort of the same thing).
> 
> The AmpPro 4 _does_ list the 2019 Challenger - like I mentioned, you want the R.2 unit:
> 
> Now compatible in non-amplified systems!
> 
> You can make it work without the AmpPro 4, but the results won't be as good.
> 
> Also - you may be able to find an AmpPro 4 on Ebay for less $$$, but you need to make sure you get the R.2 version (assuming you don't have an amplified system).
> 
> Can you please confirm whether or not you have a factory amplified system?


No... although I did not take the old system out, so I can not say with 100% certainty... I think I would have noticed a sub.
I looked on-line and the SXT model I have says Alpine upgrade was an option with a subwoofer... I did not have that option... so no.

I am definitely going to purchase the AmpPro 4... done deal! I am not prepared to skimp at this point.

Thanks again for steering me in the right direction!!!!


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## jtrosky

Reko said:


> No... although I did not take the old system out, so I can not say with 100% certainty... I think I would have noticed a sub.
> I looked on-line and the SXT model I have says Alpine upgrade was an option with a subwoofer... I did not have that option... so no.
> 
> I am definitely going to purchase the AmpPro 4... done deal! I am not prepared to skimp at this point.
> 
> Thanks again for steering me in the right direction!!!!


I'm just curious - where did they physically install your amp? Have any pictures?

On my 2018, I installed everything in the spare-tire well styrofoam "organizer" that is where a spare tire would normally go. Worked out REALLY well - completely hidden under the "trap door" in the trunk. I even managed to bolt the amp board down using the spare-tire hold-down bolt.


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## Reko

jtrosky said:


> I'm just curious - where did they physically install your amp? Have any pictures?
> 
> On my 2018, I installed everything in the spare-tire well styrofoam "organizer" that is where a spare tire would normally go. Worked out REALLY well - completely hidden under the "trap door" in the trunk. I even managed to bolt the amp board down using the spare-tire hold-down bolt.


Wow... that's really slick.
Mine is just a generic box holding the 12" subs... the amp is velcro'ed to the right side of the cabinet.

After seeing yours, I feel like I need to do better, Lol.


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## Reko

Okay... my order is in... some of the delivery times are 2 weeks out... but...

I have the following on the way...

PAC AmpPRO AP4-CH41 (R.2) with fiber optic
APH-CH01 Harness
Dayton Audio DSP-408 with bluetooth data and steaming USB interface, and wired remote control
Handheld Oscilloscope
Phase Meter

Like I said... I'm 2 weeks out on some of this stuff... but it is bought and paid for.
I am committed.

One way or another... I will get this thing sounding like a quality car audio system should.

I have a bit of confidence now... this could really turn out good.

THANKS SOOOOO MUCH JTROSKY!!!
And everyone.

I will definitely keep this thread updated and informed of my results.


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## gijoe

I didn't read super closely, but why are you buying an o-scope and a phase meter? Those are 2 tools that are almost never needed in car audio. You can certainly set everything up without either of those. Buy them if you want, but they are a waste of money.


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## Reko

gijoe said:


> I didn't read super closely, but why are you buying an o-scope and a phase meter? Those are 2 tools that are almost never needed in car audio. You can certainly set everything up without either of those. Buy them if you want, but they are a waste of money.


I watched a YouTube video setting up the AmpPRO 4 where the guys tweaked it in using both.

He found a one reversed polarity and it made a big difference in the sound. The phase meter was only $15 bucks, so to me, with as much cash as I already have into this... that's $15 bucks is nothing compared to the piece of mind of knowing everything is correct.

Then, to me, without an oscilloscope, I'd just be guessing... and I want it to be as good a set up as possible. As a machinist, I know that having the right tools for a job can make all the difference. Setting the gains at their proven maximums according to a measurable process with a proper gage seems like a no brainer to me.

I just want this project to be right.


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## jtrosky

I personally also bought an o-scope and polarity tester - and used both at points during my install/upgrades. The polarity tester is a $10 way to be absolutely sure that you have all of the speakers wired up correctly - even after the car is put back together. I used the o-scope to check gain structure. Some people like to do it by ear, some with a multimeter (measuring AC voltage coming out of the amp speaker terminals) and some like using an o-scope. Most professional audio installers I've seen recommend at least multimeter and even better, an o-scope. Even JL Audio (my amp manufacturer) recommends setting gains like this. I've seen tons of professional audio installers recommend these methods as well. 

Like mentioned, for the ~$100 for both tools, it's not a big deal... 

Use whatever works for you.


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## jtrosky

Reko said:


> THANKS SOOOOO MUCH JTROSKY!!!


I wouldn't go thanking me just yet. You may end up cursing me out before this is all said and done!! "That damn jtrosky talked me into this rabbit hole of never ending installs and upgrades that cost me a fortune!!!". 

No - but seriously, you sound like the type of person that will really enjoy this 'journey'. I'm only about a year into this stuff myself. Never touched a DSP or installed a real car amp a year ago - and now I have a decent looking install and fantastic audio quality - the type of audio where you don't even want to get out of the car after you pull up at home - and I'm still a noob at this! I still have a lot to learn... But I thoroughly enjoy messing with this stuff and learning as I go.


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## Reko

jtrosky said:


> I wouldn't go thanking me just yet. You may end up cursing me out before this is all said and done!! "That damn jtrosky talked me into this rabbit hole of never ending installs and upgrades that cost me a fortune!!!".
> 
> No - but seriously, you sound like the type of person that will really enjoy this 'journey'. I'm only about a year into this stuff myself. Never touched a DSP or installed a real car amp a year ago - and now I have a decent looking install and fantastic audio quality - the type of audio where you don't even want to get out of the car after you pull up at home - and I'm still a noob at this! I still have a lot to learn... But I thoroughly enjoy messing with this stuff and learning as I go.


Exactly right.
The reason I am excited by this, is I know I am only at the beginning... and it's always the journey that becomes the most fun to me when I take something on like this.
I see this as a challenge... no shop in a 50 mile radius could do this for me.
I was at least glad I found a shop to get as far as they did... but I was soooo disappointed with the sound... and now I have hope.

I wish now, that I would have done the entire thing myself.

Oh... and don't worry... no cursing out... I'm pretty confident I am on the right path... but either way... I will learn a lot... and that's half the fun!


----------



## jtrosky

Ok, now for some of the bad news (might as well prepare you for it now). 

To install the PAC AmpPro 4, you're going to need to remove the stock head-unit, which means that you have to pull off the dashboard fascia trim. It's only held in with speed clips, but it's a little nerve-racking to remove it (afraid of breaking something since it's all plastic).

You're also going to need to run RCA cables from the front of the car to the trunk (from the AmpPro to to the Dayton DSP-408). This involves removing some of the cars trim panels, rear seat, etc in order to hide the wires.

A lot of people install the AmpPro behind the factory radio, but I didn't like that idea since you have to remove the dash trim to get to it, if needed. I put my AmpPro on the back of the little "cardboard" trim piece above where the brake/gas pedals are - that way I can easily access it for dip switch setting changes, wire connections, firmware updates, etc. There are two clips holding the cardboard piece in and then I simply used industrial-strength velcro to "attach" the AmpPro to the cardboard piece.

Also, you're going to need power for the DSP (fused power wire and ground wire). You can get the power/ground right from the amp power connections though (just put the wires into the same places where the amp power wires are and then to the DSP). I used a little in-line fuse on the power wire, between the amp and the DSP. Can get a package of in-line fuse holders and like 100 fuses on Amazon for a few bucks (can supply link if needed).

Lastly, you really should consider getting a measurement microphone for proper DSP tuning. The MiniDSP UMIK-1 is a great choice. If you do this, you'll want to get familiar with the free Room EQ Wizard (aka "REW") software.

You'll also most likely need some assorted tools along the way (crimpers, stripers, cutters) - as well as RCA cables, power wire, etc....


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Ok, now for some of the bad news (might as well prepare you for it now).
> 
> To install the PAC AmpPro 4, you're going to need to remove the stock head-unit, which means that you have to pull off the dashboard fascia trim. It's only held in with speed clips, but it's a little nerve-racking to remove it (afraid of breaking something since it's all plastic).
> 
> You're also going to need to run RCA cables from the front of the car to the trunk (from the AmpPro to to the Dayton DSP-408). This involves removing some of the cars trim panels, rear seat, etc in order to hide the wires.
> 
> A lot of people install the AmpPro behind the factory radio, but I didn't like that idea since you have to remove the dash trim to get to it, if needed. I put my AmpPro on the back of the little "cardboard" trim piece above where the brake/gas pedals are - that way I can easily access it for dip switch setting changes, wire connections, firmware updates, etc. There are two clips holding the cardboard piece in and then I simply used industrial-strength velcro to "attach" the AmpPro to the cardboard piece.
> 
> Also, you're going to need power for the DSP (fused power wire and ground wire). You can get the power/ground right from the amp power connections though (just put the wires into the same places where the amp power wires are and then to the DSP). I used a little in-line fuse on the power wire, between the amp and the DSP. Can get a package of in-line fuse holders and like 100 fuses on Amazon for a few bucks (can supply link if needed).
> 
> Lastly, you really should consider getting a measurement microphone for proper DSP tuning. The MiniDSP UMIK-1 is a great choice. If you do this, you'll want to get familiar with the free Room EQ Wizard (aka "REW") software.
> 
> You'll also most likely need some assorted tools along the way (crimpers, stripers, cutters) - as well as RCA cables, power wire, etc....


Perfect.
I know I am going to hit roadblocks, missing something I need... project on hold while I order it and such... but that's really good info.
I can use the next week or so, while I'm waiting for my parts to come in… and I can get that stuff rounded up before I actually start the project.


----------



## jtrosky

I'll also put together a collection of links to help out with some stuff. Like I said, I just went through all of this, so I might as well pass on links to some of the documents, youtube videos, etc... Will be back in touch later today with the links. 

I'm getting excited for you!  I know how much fun I had doing all of this (and I'm still learning and adjusting my tune as we speak). The UMIK-1 microphone and REW are awesome tools to actually "see" what your system is doing in order to help you zero in on issues that should be corrected.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> I'll also put together a collection of links to help out with some stuff. Like I said, I just went through all of this, so I might as well pass on links to some of the documents, youtube videos, etc... Will be back in touch later today with the links.
> 
> I'm getting excited for you!  I know how much fun I had doing all of this (and I'm still learning and adjusting my tune as we speak). The UMIK-1 microphone and REW are awesome tools to actually "see" what your system is doing in order to help you zero in on issues that should be corrected.


If this turns out like I think it is going to... and I have high hopes... I'm going to owe you some beers!
???


----------



## Reko

Update...

So... I received all of the parts... I took the dash apart... and I am currently studying the wiring.

I have taken a bunch of pictures so if something doesn't go right for me... I can put everything back the way it was.

It's pretty intimidating... I'd hate to screw something up. ?

They have a PAC device already installed... two actually... LP7-2R is on one side... but I didn't write down the other... I'll take a look in a bit and repost what it is.

I wonder why they installed this one?
Did they install the wrong one?
Is that why they needed to install a resister to get it to work right?


----------



## jtrosky

Hmm... the LP7-2R is a 2-channel highlevel-to-lowlevel adapter. I'm really curious what the bigger box is. I'm thinking that it's the LP7-4 (4-channel highlevel-to-lowlevel adapter) - but that would be 6 channels of output and I believe that the base-level radio only as 4 channels of output (door and dash are wired together in parallel - so they are on the same channel). 

Can you confirm what that other PAC box is?

I would have expected that they just ran the highlevel signals directly to the amp without the high-to-low level adapters since just about every amp nowadays supports both low- and high-level signals (so high to low level adapters really aren't needed)...

Personally, I would rip all of that out and put things back to stock - then install the PAC AmpPro4, which will give you _clean_ low-level signals (no factory EQ, bass roll-off, etc). The PAC AmpPro is an easy install - just pull out the big connector from the radio, put it into the AmpPro harness and then plug the AmpPro harness into the back of the radio. No cutting or splicing wires or anything.

But I'd want to confirm what that other PAC box is first, just ot see what we're working with.


----------



## jtrosky

But - the good news is that if there really are 6 separate channels of output on the base-level system, then that means that they have already run RCA cables from those PAC adapters in the dashboard all of the way back to the trunk. So you could just remove the PAC adapters they installed, install the AmpPro4 and then connect the existing RCA cables to the AmpPro4. You won't have to run any new cables! So this setup would actually make it easier on you.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> But - the good news is that if there really are 6 separate channels of output on the base-level system, then that means that they have already run RCA cables from those PAC adapters in the dashboard all of the way back to the trunk. So you could just remove the PAC adapters they installed, install the AmpPro4 and then connect the existing RCA cables to the AmpPro4. You won't have to run any new cables! So this setup would actually make it easier on you.



Yes... agreed!

The thing I'd like to know is... did they install the wrong components and why? 
And, is this the reason they needed to add the resistor?
I guess I could call and talk to them... but at this point... I guess it doesn't matter.

I just want it done right... and I believe I have all the correct components now.

Here is a pic of the other PAC component.


----------



## jtrosky

Yeah, that is a 4-channel speaker-level to low-level adapter. Now here is the question though.... Do they actually have 6 separate RCA cables coming out of those two devices? If so, where do they go since you only have a 5-channel amp (and one of the channels is for the sub)??

I'm confused....


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Yeah, that is a 4-channel speaker-level to low-level adapter. Now here is the question though.... Do they actually have 6 separate RCA cables coming out of those two devices? If so, where do they go since you only have a 5-channel amp (and one of the channels is for the sub)??
> 
> I'm confused....


I believe the small PAC component has two outputs and both go to the two subs. It also has a volume knob screwed in under the dash so I could control the bass.

From the 4 output PAC component... I believe 2 of the outputs go to the 6.5" back speakers… and the other 2 go to the 6x9 door speakers which are also hooked up to the tweeters they removed from the 6x9's and installed in the front dashboard.


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> I believe the small PAC component has two outputs and both go to the two subs. It also has a volume knob screwed in under the dash so I could control the bass.
> 
> From the 4 output PAC component... I believe 2 of the outputs go to the 6.5" back speakers… and the other 2 go to the 6x9 door speakers which are also hooked up to the tweeters they removed from the 6x9's and installed in the front dashboard.


Ahh, OK - that's right (forgot about the sub!) - so the 2-channel LOC goes to the amps sub channel and the 4-channel LOC goes to the other 4 channels on the amp. That makes sense.

That is perfect then. The AmpPro also has 6 outpus and includes its own bass knob. So you'll move those RCA cables right over to the AmpPro.

Or - actually, if you want your sub to go through the DSP, you would just use the 4 main cables and the DSP would "create" the sub channel - and you'd use the Dayton bass knob. That would be a better solution so that you could use the DSP on the sub as well...


----------



## jtrosky

As to _why_ they did things this way, only they could answer that - but there is more than one way to do this types of things. I suspect they did it that way because it's cheaper (you're talking $50 for the LOC's vs. $300+ for the AmpPro) - but it's not really the _best_ way to do it since it doesn't help with factory EQ or bass roll-off, for example. 

SInce the head-unit only has 4-channels of output, I'm assuming that they are splitting two of the outputs in order to get 6 outputs? Still trying to fully understand exactly how they wired all of this up... I'm pretty sure there are only 4 channels of highlevel outputs from the head-unit. You'd have to trace the wiring to see exactly what they did.

But regardless, once you get the head-unit side back to stock (by removing the PAC devices they installed), then you'd justuse 4 of their RCA's to go to your Dayton DSP - and then you'd have 5 channels coming out of the Dayton (it will create the sub channel).


----------



## jtrosky

Any updates on how it's going? Were you able to remove the PAC units they installed and put the AmpPro 4 it their place?


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Any updates on how it's going? Were you able to remove the PAC units they installed and put the AmpPro 4 it their place?


I’m going to try to get at it this weekend.
I’ve been sick all week... didn’t even go to work today.

I am pretty intimidated by the wiring and how cobbled up it is.
I was to study it and have a game plan.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Any updates on how it's going? Were you able to remove the PAC units they installed and put the AmpPro 4 it their place?


Okay, step one update... I removed the PAC units they had installed and put in the AmpPro. I just plugged the RCA’s into the AmpPro to make sure I have sound... and I do... so at least the old PAC units and the wiring with the resistors are gone.

The speakers aren’t all working... there’s something strange going on... but I’m not going to put too much thought into it because I’m going to reroute them all through the Dayton DSP tomorrow anyway.

There is a big difference in sound quality already.
It’s not as loud as it was, and there is not much distribution... it Is way cleaner sounding... and there is no bass roll-off... it’s pretty consistent all the way up to the top.

I can’t wait to get the DSP hooked up, set the gain and all of the cross-overs.

I‘m still feeling very hopeful!


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> Okay, step one update... I removed the PAC units they had installed and put in the AmpPro. I just plugged the RCA’s into the AmpPro to make sure I have sound... and I do... so at least the old PAC units and the wiring with the resistors are gone.
> 
> The speakers aren’t all working... there’s something strange going on... but I’m not going to put too much thought into it because I’m going to reroute them all through the Dayton DSP tomorrow anyway.
> 
> There is a big difference in sound quality already.
> It’s not as loud as it was, and there is not much distribution... it Is way cleaner sounding... and there is no bass roll-off... it’s pretty consistent all the way up to the top.
> 
> I can’t wait to get the DSP hooked up, set the gain and all of the cross-overs.
> 
> I‘m still feeling very hopeful!


Glad to hear that you are making progress!

Personally, I would try to get all of the speakers working before introducing the DSP. Once you add the DSP, there will just be more complexity. How many and which speakers are currently working?


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Glad to hear that you are making progress!
> 
> Personally, I would try to get all of the speakers working before introducing the DSP. Once you add the DSP, there will just be more complexity. How many and which speakers are currently working?


So only the subs, the drivers side rear 6.5 and both door speakers are working.

The passenger side rear 6.5 is not working, and the front tweeters aren’t working.

Not sure why... I was just glad I have sound. That was a big first step just getting the PAC units swapped out.

More tomorrow.


----------



## Reko

Step 2 update...

Tonight I finished cleaning up all the wiring issues... everything is back to stock so that there are no extra wires tapped into the harness.

I also found out why 3 speakers weren’t working... there were 2 splitter RCA cables being used at the amp... with only 4 RCA output lines being used from the old PAC units.

It obviously worked for the old configuration... but not the new PAC unit... so now all 6 RCA cables are leaving the AmpPro and all 6 are going directly and properly into the amp... no more splitters.

————————————————

So... the sound... it is now head and shoulders better than it was!!!
Not even close.
The signal is flat and is clear all the way up to around 35... and pretty loud too... the head unit goes up to 38.
The bass is solid on songs with pronounced bass, like Linkin Park.

On a scale of 1-10... with 10 being the best possible...
The stock set up, with no amp at all... it was a 3.
After the shop I took it to set it up with the old PAC units and resistors... it was a 5.
And now tonight, after finishing the AmpPro install and RCA cable correction... it is a 7!!!

Now, my next step is to learn to use my new oscilloscope and look at the output from the AmpPro... and the output from the amp... to maximize the gain settings.

I have no experience doing this, but then, when I started, I wasn’t sure I’d ever get this far, Lol.

Then, after that, I’ll get the DSP hooked up and make the final settings.

Getting closer... Step by step.


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## jtrosky

Awesome news! Fantastic work. So glad to hear that you are liking the results so far (I would have hate for you to go through all of this for nothing!!). 

If you are at a 7 now, the DSP will put you up to a 9 or 10. Just setting up time alignment alone on the DSP will make a dramatic difference. Then when you get to the EQ part, you'll experience another huge increase in sound quality. 

The DSP tuning will probably be the biggest learning curve and take the longest, but like I said, simply measuring the distance from your head to the speakers and setting up time alignment will be a big improvement - and that part is easy. EQ takes a lot longer to get just right.

Really makes you wonder why that shop is still messing with line-out-converters and resistors when the AmpPro is such a better solution... 

Thanks for the update and keep them coming! Love hearing DIY success stories!


----------



## bbfoto

Good work. 

IIRC, the PAC AmpPro units have dip switches to choose between 4 volt and 5 volt RCA line level output. Use the 4 volt output setting as it has better signal to noise ratio. That's a tip straight from the tech support guys at PAC.


----------



## jtrosky

bbfoto said:


> Good work.
> 
> IIRC, the PAC AmpPro units have dip switches to choose between 4 volt and 5 volt RCA line level output. Use the 4 volt output setting as it has better signal to noise ratio. That's a tip straight from the tech support guys at PAC.


That's interesting. You'd think that the 5v line-level output would give you a higher S/N ratio - I mean isn't that the biggest advantage of higher voltage outputs? If the 5v outputs have _worse_ S/N ratio, then I don't understand why they even provide them - especially since the manual tells you to revert back to 4v if your amp can't handle 5v on it's inputs (so the manual sort of insinuates that 5v is preferred, but fall back to 4v if needed). 

Or am I way off here? 

Just trying to understand this a little better.


----------



## bbfoto

What I understood from the techs is that the 5v output was provided in order to be more versatile/usable for systems that really need the extra input gain to achieve a decent output level.

But essentially the 5v output is just an "overly boosted" 4v signal (both noise & gain), and that 4 volts was the "target output level" in the design, most similar to the majority of head units & amplifier input sensitivity ranges, hence the better SNR @ 4v.

I also vaguely remember either Dean or the PAC Audio rep mentioning this in one of the _5 Star Car Stereo_ videos I watched on YouTube.


----------



## Reko

So I got the DSP hooked up but it has a slight buzz that I'm not sure I want to live with.
A guy I work with suggested trying a different ground. Currently, I have it hooked in with the 4 gage positive and negative lines supplying the amp.

I got the settings decent... but it feels limited.
I think I need to open up the amp's crossover frequency settings... then, the DSP will have the full range of frequencies to work with.

I'll give it another try this weekend when I have more time.
For now, I have reverted back to just the amp.

It's really nice just to have good sound again.

That AmpPro really made a huge difference.

I could leave it like it is and be happy.


----------



## jtrosky

I can't remember - do you have the Dayton "bass knob"? I have heard complaints about their bass knob causing some buzzing noises in certain installations. If you do have and use it, maybe try disconnecting it and see if the buzz goes away.

Since you are going "active" for crossovers with a DSP, you definitely want to disable the crossovers on the amp - you no longer need them and do not want them active when using a DSP for active crossovers. That may be your biggest issue - the crossover settings on the amp may be limiting the DSP's involvement. Also, crossovers "stack", so the end result may be way out of whack when crossovers are active on both the amp and the DSP.

I know that you would be happy with just the amp, but trust me, once you get the DSP setup right, it will make a huge difference. Setting up a DSP properly does take a lot of time to get right though - especially if you are new to audio tuning (trust me, I didn't even know what a DSP was a year or two ago, so I'm a noob as well) - but I've learned _so_ much about car audio over the past year or two though while on my path to get my DSP tuned. Time alignment alone is a game-changer for staging.  

I wish you had a Helix, then I could just share my tune with you (since we have the same car, same speakers, etc).  Would be a great starting point for you. Once (if) you get a MIC, it can really show you the areas that you need to address. I highly recommend a MiniDSP UMIK-1 if you really want to get serious about tuning. Without it, you are severely limited.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> I can't remember - do you have the Dayton "bass knob"? I have heard complaints about their bass knob causing some buzzing noises in certain installations. If you do have and use it, maybe try disconnecting it and see if the buzz goes away.
> 
> Since you are going "active" for crossovers with a DSP, you definitely want to disable the crossovers on the amp - you no longer need them and do not want them active when using a DSP for active crossovers. That may be your biggest issue - the crossover settings on the amp may be limiting the DSP's involvement. Also, crossovers "stack", so the end result may be way out of whack when crossovers are active on both the amp and the DSP.
> 
> I know that you would be happy with just the amp, but trust me, once you get the DSP setup right, it will make a huge difference. Setting up a DSP properly does take a lot of time to get right though - especially if you are new to audio tuning (trust me, I didn't even know what a DSP was a year or two ago, so I'm a noob as well) - but I've learned _so_ much about car audio over the past year or two though while on my path to get my DSP tuned. Time alignment alone is a game-changer for staging.
> 
> I wish you had a Helix, then I could just share my tune with you (since we have the same car, same speakers, etc).  Would be a great starting point for you. Once (if) you get a MIC, it can really show you the areas that you need to address. I highly recommend a MiniDSP UMIK-1 if you really want to get serious about tuning. Without it, you are severely limited.


I'm going to give it another try, for sure.
I think opening up the amp settings will make a big difference... it makes sense that I need to let the DSP handle all the frequencies.

I will try several things to figure out where the buzz is coming from.
I'll start with the peripheral devices.
Yeah, the DSP has a wired remote control switch that controls volume and presets... so I'll try it without that.
The AmpPro also has a bass knob, so I'll take that off to test it as well.
I'll also try putting the ground in a difference place on the frame too.
Any other suggestions are appreciated.

When I purchase that MiniDSP UMIK-1, I wonder, does it work with the current Dayton DSP software or do I need to purchase other software too?
As I've said... money isn't even a factor at this point... I just want the best sound I can get.

I'm ordering the MiniDSP UMIK-1 right now ( order placed... will be delivered tomorrow  )... then I'll have it for this weekend when I have time to really dig into this DSP.

Thanks again!


----------



## jtrosky

I haven't heard of any issues with the AmpPro knob, just the one for the Dayton DSP. Obviously, it won't hurt to try removing both though. Is the buzz constant? Does it change in volume with the radio volume? Does it change with the engines RPMs at all? Just trying to get a little more detail about the buzz to help troubleshoot it.

You'll use the MIC with the free "Room EQ Wizard" software (not associated with MiniDSP or any other DSP - it's just a free app used for audio tuning in general). You can download it here :

REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software

It will seem complicated at first, but we'll help you through it. You'll also need a good pink noise source to tune with - I use this one from Kicker.com (I like that it's 20 mins long):

https://www.kicker.com/files/test_tones/Lab_Grade_Pink_Noise_20_minutes.wav

You'll also need to download the calibration file for your MIC from the MiniDSP site (it's based off the serial number of the MIC, so you'll have to wait until it get it) - details will be included with the MIC.

You'll also need a "house curve" to tune towards. I'll upload mine to get you started since you have such a similar setup as me. 

I'm sure there are some other links I can provide to help get you started. I'll be back to post more later.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> I haven't heard of any issues with the AmpPro knob, just the one for the Dayton DSP. Obviously, it won't hurt to try removing both though. Is the buzz constant? Does it change in volume with the radio volume? Does it change with the engines RPMs at all? Just trying to get a little more detail about the buzz to help troubleshoot it.
> 
> You'll use the MIC with the free "Room EQ Wizard" software (not associated with MiniDSP or any other DSP - it's just a free app used for audio tuning in general). You can download it here :
> 
> REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
> 
> It will seem complicated at first, but we'll help you through it. You'll also need a good pink noise source to tune with - I use this one from Kicker.com (I like that it's 20 mins long):
> 
> https://www.kicker.com/files/test_tones/Lab_Grade_Pink_Noise_20_minutes.wav
> 
> You'll also need to download the calibration file for your MIC from the MiniDSP site (it's based off the serial number of the MIC, so you'll have to wait until it get it) - details will be included with the MIC.
> 
> You'll also need a "house curve" to tune towards. I'll upload mine to get you started since you have such a similar setup as me.
> 
> I'm sure there are some other links I can provide to help get you started. I'll be back to post more later.


The buzz is always there... but it increases with RPM's.
That's why it's annoying because when I have the volume at a lower setting ( which is rare for me, lol ) it is really pronounced.
If I can't get rid of it... I'll ditch this DSP and try something else.
I have a feeling I'll be able to get rid of it though... or most of it... with a better ground or getting rid of a peripheral.
I don't really need the wired remote on the Dayton DSP because I bought the Bluetooth device and I can use the app on my phone for settings... so I hope that is the cause.

Thanks again!


----------



## Reko

Wow... DSP is super complicated... so is the REW software.

I spent a couple hours with it... with the DSP hooked up... there is still a ton of noise, even without the wired remote.

Leaning hard at ditching the DSP.

I’ll watch some YouTube videos tonight... then try again tomorrow.


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> Wow... DSP is super complicated... so is the REW software.
> 
> I spent a couple hours with it... with the DSP hooked up... there is still a ton of noise, even without the wired remote.
> 
> Leaning hard at ditching the DSP.
> 
> I’ll watch some YouTube videos tonight... then try again tomorrow.


Actually, DSP really isn't _that_ complicated. Yes, there is a learning curve, but the good part is that you can start using it for basics, such as time alignment (super easy to setup) and then work on it more and more in order to learn more. The REW software looks overwhelming at first, but for what you are going to be using it for (EQ), it's not hard either (you'll only be using a very small subset of it's features/functions). We'll be able to help with that, including some videos to get your started.

But right now, you have another more "basic" issue, which is the noise problem that you have with the DSP hooked up. It should NOT be adding any significant amount of noise. Either there is a wiring issue or the DSP itself is defective. But don't give up on DSP - you'd be surprised how much it can improve a system. 

If you are sure that all of your wiring is good, I'd either try exchanging the DSP or maybe even return it and buy something else. If money is not an issue, I'd personally look at a Helix DSP.3 or a MiniDSP DIracLive unit. These are significantly more money than the Dayton DSP-408, but they're also significantly better (both hardware and software-wise). However, many people use the Dayton DSP-408 with good results too. I do have one myself, but have never actually used it. Hell, if you want, I can lend you mine to try to help determine if it's a hardware problem with yours or not. PM me if interested.

Don't give up on DSP because of that noise issue though - something is wrong there... You really can't enjoy the benefits of DSP until you get rid of that issue....


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Actually, DSP really isn't _that_ complicated. Yes, there is a learning curve, but the good part is that you can start using it for basics, such as time alignment (super easy to setup) and then work on it more and more in order to learn more. The REW software looks overwhelming at first, but for what you are going to be using it for (EQ), it's not hard either (you'll only be using a very small subset of it's features/functions). We'll be able to help with that, including some videos to get your started.
> 
> But right now, you have another more "basic" issue, which is the noise problem that you have with the DSP hooked up. It should NOT be adding any significant amount of noise. Either there is a wiring issue or the DSP itself is defective. But don't give up on DSP - you'd be surprised how much it can improve a system.
> 
> If you are sure that all of your wiring is good, I'd either try exchanging the DSP or maybe even return it and buy something else. If money is not an issue, I'd personally look at a Helix DSP.3 or a MiniDSP DIracLive unit. These are significantly more money than the Dayton DSP-408, but they're also significantly better (both hardware and software-wise). However, many people use the Dayton DSP-408 with good results too. I do have one myself, but have never actually used it. Hell, if you want, I can lend you mine to try to help determine if it's a hardware problem with yours or not. PM me if interested.
> 
> Don't give up on DSP because of that noise issue though - something is wrong there... You really can't enjoy the benefits of DSP until you get rid of that issue....


Thanks JT.

I spent another couple of hours Sunday and I have left the DSP hooked up.
The noise is still there, but if I turn the music up 1/4 of the way, it covers it up... and what's weird... is even if I turn the power to the radio off... the noise is still there coming through the speakers.
I watched a few YouTube Videos on noise in a system and they talked about a ground loop filter. I'm going to purchase one and install it right before the DSP.
Fingers crossed... and if I can't figure it out... perhaps I'll try to get another local shop to look at it and make some suggestions.

Anyway, by leaving the DSP hooked up, hopefully I can keep trying and tweaking over time to get good results.
Honestly... if the buzz wasn't there, it is already a superior sound over the amp alone... and that's without the REW settings yet... just my tweaks by ear.

The crossover settings are a bit complicated... it'd be nice if I had a baseline for the individual speakers. 
Just by ear for what frequencies sounded good...
I set the subs to 20-200, 
the rear 6.5" to 200-10000
and the door 6x9's 200-15000

Turns out my front tweeters aren't working... and honestly, I don't remember if they ever did. 
They originally told me they would hook them up with the 6x9's with some sort of filter... but I don't ever remember hearing them before I removed their 2 PAC units... and they are definitely silent now.
I can not even say how disappointed I am in the shop that hooked everything up.
I'll need to dig into that and possibly run some speaker wire from them to the back, purchase a small 2 channel amp to power them... and then route them through the DSP as I still have 2 channels open.

Thanks for hanging in there with me JT... I'll get this thing one way or another!!!


----------



## jtrosky

Whoa.... If the dash speakers aren't working, then you are _really_ missing out on quite a bit... Basically, the dash speakers are both midrange speakers and tweeters (3.5" 2-way coaxials) - they are HUGELY important to overall sound quality. Without those, you are really missing out.

Since you only have a 5-channel amp, you would have to use the passive crossovers included with the XP6903C speaker set (if you had enough amp channels, you would have each speaker on it's own amp channel, but with only 5 channels, you'll need to run the door and dash speakers off the same channel using the included passive crossover). Time alignment won't be quite as effective this way, but unless you get more amp channels, "it is what it is". 

Unfortunately, you're going to have to pop the door panels and dash panel off to see where the dash speaker wires are going. They should be going from the dash speaker to the door speaker using the passive crossover that came with the speakers. That would be crazy if the original place didn't hook up the dash speakers originally. Man, did that place do a number on this install! 

For what it's worth, here is how I have the crossovers setup in my car:

3.5" Coaxial dash speakers: 400hz - 20khz
6x9" Door midbass speakers: 65hz - 400hz
6.5" Coaxial rear-deck speakers: 75hz - 4khz
Underseat sub: up to 65hz

In your case since you won't have the door and dash speakers on their own amp channels, your door/dash speakers would be send a full signal (besides the sub freqs) and the passive in-line crossovers would send midbass freqs to the doro speaker and mids/highs to the dash speaker automatically.

But yeah, the dash speakers are extremely important to the overall sound quality in these cars. If you think it sounds good now, just wait until you get all of the speakers working. 

I can't remember where you are located, but if anywhere near PA/NJ/NY/DE, I would be glad to help out in person in order to help you get things setup right.... 

Also, don't forget - I would be glad to send you my currently not-in-use Dayton DSP to use as a troubleshooting tool. Maybe you just have a bad DSP. You would really rather not use a ground loop isolator as they can further reduce sound quality. I have no use for my Dayton DSP, so I don't mind sending it out to see if that changes anything...


----------



## bbfoto

Try connecting all of the (-) grounds of the head unit/source, DSP, and amplifier(s) to a common grounding point. You can try this with external jumper wires first, and then install them permanently if it helps.

This should help to reduce any ground loops.


----------



## Reko

Update... I ran 14 gage wire from the DSP positive and negative right to the same place the amp is hooked into in the battery compartment.

I moved the ground to 3 different place... still noise.

Still buzzing and whizzing that follows the rpm of the engine.

Unplug the DSP... no noise.

Plug back in... noise.

Turn key on acc... noise... 

Start engine... noise.

Turn engine off, but leave it in run mode... far less noise... but a small bit is still there.

Back to acc... noise.

Very frustrating.


----------



## bbfoto

Reko said:


> Update... I ran 14 gage wire from the DSP positive and negative right to the same place the amp is hooked into in the battery compartment.
> 
> I moved the ground to 3 different place... still noise.
> 
> Still buzzing and whizzing that follows the rpm of the engine.
> 
> Unplug the DSP... no noise.
> 
> Plug back in... noise.
> 
> Turn key on acc... noise...
> 
> Start engine... noise.
> 
> Turn engine off, but leave it in run mode... far less noise... but a small bit is still there.
> 
> Back to acc... noise.
> 
> Very frustrating.


WAIT...

What about the OEM head unit & PAC AmpPRO grounds??? That would create the most significant ground loop between the amps/DSP and the source in front.

Did you isolate and jump the grounds for the AmpPRO and Head Unit to the same amp & DSP ground point???

Do you have a home CD, DVD, or Blu-Ray player that you could temporarily plug into the main set of RCA interconnects that normally go from the AmpPRO in front to the DSP?

Unplug all of the RCA cables only at the AmpPRO (the ones that go to the DSP). Do you still have noise? If so, it is not coming from the Head Unit or AmpPRO. It is coming from your power wiring at the DSP or Amplifier, or being picked up by poorly-shielded or defective RCA cables.

If there is no noise when unplugging the RCAs at the AmpPRO, try plugging in the CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player's Right & Left RCA outputs to the main set of RCAs up front that feed the DSP. Play any disc that outputs audio. It should still be noise free.

The idea is to have or use a playback source that is completely isolated from the vehicle's electrical system. If you have an adapter, you could use your smartphone or an iPod connected to the RCAs in the front that go to the DSP instead of using the home disc player.

Also, do you have HID headlights? Even with standard halogen headlights, try turning the headlight switch to OFF if it is currently in "Auto" mode.


----------



## Reko

bbfoto said:


> WAIT...
> 
> What about the OEM head unit & PAC AmpPRO grounds??? That would create the most significant ground loop between the amps/DSP and the source in front.
> 
> Did you isolate and jump the grounds for the AmpPRO and Head Unit to the same amp & DSP ground point???
> 
> Do you have a home CD, DVD, or Blu-Ray player that you could temporarily plug into the main set of RCA interconnects that normally go from the AmpPRO in front to the DSP?
> 
> Unplug all of the RCA cables only at the AmpPRO (the ones that go to the DSP). Do you still have noise? If so, it is not coming from the Head Unit or AmpPRO. It is coming from your power wiring at the DSP or Amplifier, or being picked up by poorly-shielded or defective RCA cables.
> 
> If there is no noise when unplugging the RCAs at the AmpPRO, try plugging in the CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player's Right & Left RCA outputs to the main set of RCAs up front that feed the DSP. Play any disc that outputs audio. It should still be noise free.
> 
> The idea is to have or use a playback source that is completely isolated from the vehicle's electrical system. If you have an adapter, you could use your smartphone or an iPod connected to the RCAs in the front that go to the DSP instead of using the home disc player.
> 
> Also, do you have HID headlights? Even with standard halogen headlights, try turning the headlight switch to OFF if it is currently in "Auto" mode.


Thanks for those suggestions... I was almost out of ideas, so I will try those ASAP.

The one idea I did have, but I ran out of time last night... was disconnecting the DSP power harness ( which only consists of blue remote in/out, power and ground ) and plugging power into a wall socket in my garage using the power cable that came with it for home use. I know I can't drive down the road like that... but at least that would tell me if it is my 12 volt power issue within my car.

I will definitely try your other suggestions too... but...the one that scares me a bit is snipping wires from the main head unit harness... it is all original and seamless.

The AmpPro harness is plugged right into the original adapter and then, right into the head unit. 

I haven't looked at all the colors of the wires in a few weeks... but are you saying I should snip a black wire from that set of wires and run that back to the battery compartment? I am not ruling anything out at this point... but I should mention... when the DSP is unplugged and out of the mix... and only the amp is hooked up, which is hooked right into the battery positive and the dedicated negative ground post next to the battery... the signal is perfectly clear with zero noise... RCA cables and all... but it is only when the DSP is introduced... that is when the noise is really bad.

I just want to make sure I understand what I'm doing... before clipping wires in the main head unit harness that it's even possible for the original wiring... or the PAC AmpPro harness... which plugs seamlessly in between the car's original plug and the original head unit with no spliced wires... that that could be the problem.

Thanks for the help!!!

I am very appreciative of this!!!


----------



## jtrosky

Please - let me send you my spare Dayton DSP-408! At this point, I'm wondering if it's a defective DSP and trying my DSP (same exact DSP) would rule that out very quickly and easily.

I can get it sent out today - just PM me your address and I'll get it sent out!


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Please - let me send you my spare Dayton DSP-408! At this point, I'm wondering if it's a defective DSP and trying my DSP (same exact DSP) would rule that out very quickly and easily.
> 
> I can get it sent out today - just PM me your address and I'll get it sent out!


Dude... that is sooooo generous... and if I take you up on that... I promise... it will be above board and I will pay for all shipping both ways.
But first... let me try a few more things to rule out everything that can be thought of.

I am really looking forward to unplugging the car power harness from the DSP and plugging it in straight from a wall outlet... that way... the 12 volt power source, the ground and the remote turn on are all out of the equation. It should be a crystal clear signal, right?


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> Dude... that is sooooo generous... and if I take you up on that... I promise... it will be above board and I will pay for all shipping both ways.
> But first... let me try a few more things to rule out everything that can be thought of.
> 
> I am really looking forward to unplugging the car power harness from the DSP and plugging it in straight from a wall outlet... that way... the 12 volt power source, the ground and the remote turn on are all out of the equation. It should be a crystal clear signal, right?


No problem at all - glad to help any way that I can. Don't hesitate to let me know if I can send it. It's just sitting here doing me no good right now, so I'd rather at least use it to help you troubleshoot your issue. Not worried about the shipping costs - I'll pay to ship to to you, I just ask that you pay to ship it back when you are done (if it turns out that yours is defective, you can just hang on to and use mine until yours gets replaced). I'm easy to work with.  I'm a pretty good judge of character and I know I won't have any issues with you.

Yeah, I agree that connecting it to your house power will be a good troubleshooting step. If you still get the noise at that point, then I'd have to think it's the DSP itself.


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## bbfoto

Yes, try the DSP's AC wall wart power supply first. 

And don't snip or cut any wires in the OEM harness. Can't you snip just the ground wire in the actual AmpPRO harness that is between the OEM harness and the plug that goes into the AmpPro? That should be easy enough to splice back together.

There is usually a way to easily ''de-pin" and safely remove each individual wire connector from the OEM and/or AmpPRO wiring harness using a "de-pinning" tool. It's like a very thin pick and sometimes just a small paperclip will work.

When you are done testing everything you can simply push the wire with the pin connector back into the harness housing. Most of them just have a small spring tab on the pin to keep them secured in the connector housing. You can search Amazon for "wire harness depinning tool".

But try all of your other options first!

You can also get simple male to male stereo RCA adapters, and use them to bypass the DSP and go straight from the AmpPRO to the amplifier. If you still get noise when doing that, then you have a ground Loop or noise issue at the AmpPRO or head unit.

But make sure to disconnect the tweeters from the amplifier so you don't send them full range signal and blow them. Or if your amplifier has a HPF built into its crossover section, engage it on the tweeter channels if it can be adjusted to 1kHz or above and leave the tweeters connected to the amplifier.


----------



## Reko

Update...

I unhooked the power harness... the 12 volt, ground and remote turn on that powers the DSP and plugged in the AC power supply meant for indoor use... and the noise is still present, but on a scale of 1 to 10... 10 being worst... the noise went from a 7 all the way down to a 1 or a 2... it is nearly gone.

To put it in perspective, I had to turn the volume up to 20 ( out of 38 ) so that I couldn’t hear the buzz while it was hooked up to the car battery.

Now, I hear the buzz with no sound, and I only need to turn it up to 5 ( out of 38 ) to not hear the buzz.

Much better... but not gone completely.

I’m not sure what my next move is, because even if I could get the noise to this level hooked back into my car battery system... I don’t think I’d like it.

When I turn on a talk radio or news show... or just when the DJ is talking with no music... the noise is there... better... but still there.

The amp alone with no DSP is better.

I will give this some thought, but I’m wondering if I should get a better DSP unit like the Helix?


----------



## Reko

Well, I bought an AC to DC power inverter that plugs into my car so that I could keep it hooked up to the wall/outlet type power to evaluate this a bit better.

I drove to work this morning and I think I can live with this. Even when listening to the morning news it was nearly inaudible. I mean it's there... but barely.

So now... the question is... how do I get a good clean power signal? 
I mean, I could leave it like it is... but it seems silly converting power to AC then back to DC... there has to be a way to get clean power to this DSP through the 12 volt harness with remote turn on.

Here's a question I thought about last night... the 12 volt wiring harness that plugs into the DSP... besides containing the power, ground and remote turn on... has 8 wires for high level inputs I am not using so I just taped them off.

Even though they are not being used... could those dead end wires be causing the buzz in the system?


----------



## jtrosky

Something is still not right though. There are lots of people using the Dayton DSP and audible noise is not a reported issue (except the minor noise when the bass knob is connected - but even that is VERY minor and not there in every case). You shouldn't have noise like you are having - especially if the bass knob isn't even connected. I realize it's better when connected to AC power, but something is still not right.

Any headway with getting the dash speakers working (hugely important!)?


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Something is still not right though. There are lots of people using the Dayton DSP and audible noise is not a reported issue (except the minor noise when the bass knob is connected - but even that is VERY minor and not there in every case). You shouldn't have noise like you are having - especially if the bass knob isn't even connected. I realize it's better when connected to AC power, but something is still not right.
> 
> Any headway with getting the dash speakers working (hugely important!)?


No, I haven't even thought about that. I was thinking I'd save that issue for last because I don't want them hooked up to the other speakers... I want to run speaker wire from them to the trunk so I can buy a 2 channel amp and run them through the last 2 channels I have open on the DSP.

I had to run out for lunch for a meeting just now... drove for about an hour... and I must say, it is far quieter than I originally thought. 
The road noise definitely covers it up... again on a scale of 1-10... I was thinking it was a 1 or 2, but after riding around for an hour... it is definitely a 1... and definitely tolerable.

They must make something to filter power/ground connections to filter out the noise so that I can re-hook it up through the battery.
I'll keep investigative it.
There has to be a way.


----------



## Reko

I just ordered an inline power noise filter and a pack of clip on ferrite core rings.
No idea if they'll work.


----------



## jtrosky

Just curious - are your ground connections going directly to the negative battery post or are they connected to something else? Since we have the same car, maybe we can compare.

I have my connections going directly to the battery posts - so one positive connection going to the positive battery post and one ground connection going directly to the negative battery post. This is an older pic (when I had the DSR-1 instead of the Helix), but same thing really:










My Helix power/ground wires actually go from the Helix into the _amp_ power/ground terminals (they are twisted around the power/ground wires that go into the amp - they just piggy back off the amp power wires). This allows me to have a single connection directly to each of the battery terminals for all power/ground.

I haven't had any noise-related issues this way.

I just think that you are better off trying to find and cure the _cause_ of the noise instead of trying to "filter" it out after it's already present. We need to find the source of that noise! 

Do you still have the Dayton bass knob disconnected?


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Just curious - are your ground connections going directly to the negative battery post or are they connected to something else? Since we have the same car, maybe we can compare.
> 
> I have my connections going directly to the battery posts - so one positive connection going to the positive battery post and one ground connection going directly to the negative battery post. This is an older pic (when I had the DSR-1 instead of the Helix), but same thing really:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Helix power/ground wires actually go from the Helix into the _amp_ power/ground terminals (they are twisted around the power/ground wires that go into the amp - they just piggy back off the amp power wires). This allows me to have a single connection directly to each of the battery terminals for all power/ground.
> 
> I haven't had any noise-related issues this way.
> 
> I just think that you are better off trying to find and cure the _cause_ of the noise instead of trying to "filter" it out after it's already present. We need to find the source of that noise!
> 
> Do you still have the Dayton bass knob disconnected?


Dayton knob is not connected.
I started out connecting power and ground twisted to the 4 gage amp cables at the inputs to the amp.
Next, I went DSP directly to the battery posts as there is a place to hook them... which you can see in your pictures.
Then I left the power connected to the positive cable... but moved the ground to the dedicated post protruding from the sheet metal on the right side of the trunk.
You have something hooked to it... mine was by itself... so I figured that could be it.
All failed.
When I say the noise was a 7 of a scale of 1-10... I mean it was REALLY BAD... no way would I have kept the DSP in sounding like that.

I am going to try the filters... only because I don't know what else to do.

Another option would be to leave it like it is... and use the AC/DC inverter... but again... that seems silly inverting the power back and forth... but at least it clears up the sound problem.


----------



## Reko

By the way... the filters are going in-line on the power wire... so that shouldn't affect the sound... right?


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> but moved the ground to the dedicated post protruding from the sheet metal on the right side of the trunk.
> You have something hooked to it... mine was by itself... so I figured that could be it.


Whoa - are you saying that you didn't have a connection between the negative battery post to the sheet metal? #1 in the diagram below? 










That isn't anything that I did - that is a factory connection - I believe that is the main factory "body" ground point for the battery!? You should have a factory cable going from that post on the body panel to the metal thing that connects to the battery negative post. If that is not there, I wonder if that shop removed it for some reason??

Can you post a pic of your battery and it's connections (like the pic above)? I'm curious to see what you have right now.

Also, what year and "type" is your Challenger?


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Whoa - are you saying that you didn't have a connection between the negative battery post to the sheet metal? #1 in the diagram below?
> 
> That isn't anything that I did - that is a factory connection - I believe that is the main factory "body" ground point for the battery!? You should have a factory cable going from that post on the body panel to the metal thing that connects to the battery negative post. If that is not there, I wonder if that shop removed it for some reason??
> 
> Can you post a pic of your battery and it's connections (like the pic above)? I'm curious to see what you have right now.
> 
> Also, what year and "type" is your Challenger?


Sorry, my mistake.
Mine is the same.
When I hooked my negative lead up to that post, nothing else was on it, but below it, I didn't pay attention to the negative cable that was there.
I just didn't remember seeing it when I seen yours in the picture.

I have a 2019 SXT.

So I contacted Dayton through email and they answered recommending to do what I did... hook up the AC power to it to see if that would solve it.
I told them my results, and they emailed back to try a noise reducer in the power line.

I have one coming from Amazon... should be here this weekend.
I will post the results after I try that.

After the power issue is resolved... I will begin tackling front speakers wired into the DSP... then the mic/REW settings... and then the final tweaks to cap this project off.

Thanks again for hanging in there with me on this... I feel like I am soooooo close to getting this system the way I want it.


----------



## Reko

Update:
So the power line noise reducer didn't work at all.
I give, Lol.

I'm going to take this to a shop in another city when this whole Corona Virus thing gets over with... to see if they can offer any suggestions to get it wired up properly.

Until then... I can run it from the AC/DC power inverter plugged into a cigarette lighter outlet.

Thanks guys.


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> Update:
> So the power line noise reducer didn't work at all.
> I give, Lol.
> 
> I'm going to take this to a shop in another city when this whole Corona Virus thing gets over with... to see if they can offer any suggestions to get it wired up properly.
> 
> Until then... I can run it from the AC/DC power inverter plugged into a cigarette lighter outlet.
> 
> Thanks guys.


Are you sure you don't want to try using my DSP-408 first? Just the fact that you get noise either way (AC or DC) just makes me wonder if it's a defective DSP. Yes, you get a lot less with AC power, but still, it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with the DSP that is causing the noise. You shouldn't be having _any_ noise at all - and the fact that the noise doesn't exist until you put the DSP in kind of says to me that it's not the wiring, but something with the DSP that is causing your noise issue. 

I really don't mind sending it out - and I'm Coronavirus-free!


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Are you sure you don't want to try using my DSP-408 first? Just the fact that you get noise either way (AC or DC) just makes me wonder if it's a defective DSP. Yes, you get a lot less with AC power, but still, it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with the DSP that is causing the noise. You shouldn't be having _any_ noise at all - and the fact that the noise doesn't exist until you put the DSP in kind of says to me that it's not the wiring, but something with the DSP that is causing your noise issue.
> 
> I really don't mind sending it out - and I'm Coronavirus-free!


You've got mail.


----------



## bbfoto

Sorry, did you ever try hooking up a different, power-isolated playback source into the DSP's inputs, such as a smartphone, iPod/iPad, or home CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player?

If so, was any noise still present?

You can also make or buy a power filter capacitor/capacitor bank on the positive (+) output of the alternator and chassis ground. Alternators can produce significant spurious noise that changes with engine speed.

There is a thread/post here on DIYMA somewhere with a diagram on how to do this...the parts you need and the connsection points.

Nearly all Police/Fire/Ambulance vehicles and ships/boats use commercial versions of these to improve the performance of all of their comms equipment...i.e. radios, computers, GPS/navigation, visual displays, etc.

Newmar 150-Amp Alternator Filter


----------



## jtrosky

But - if it were alternator-related noise, why would the noise only be there when the DSP is connected? If he leaves the DSP out of the chain, there is no noise whatsoever.... That kind of leads me to believe it's something with the DSP itself.


----------



## bbfoto

jtrosky said:


> But - if it were alternator-related noise, why would the noise only be there when the DSP is connected? If he leaves the DSP out of the chain, there is no noise whatsoever.... That kind of leads me to believe it's something with the DSP itself.


Ahhh. Yes. You are correct, of course.


----------



## Reko

fgh


bbfoto said:


> Sorry, did you ever try hooking up a different, power-isolated playback source into the DSP's inputs, such as a smartphone, iPod/iPad, or home CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player?
> 
> If so, was any noise still present?
> 
> You can also make or buy a power filter capacitor/capacitor bank on the positive (+) output of the alternator and chassis ground. Alternators can produce significant spurious noise that changes with engine speed.
> 
> There is a thread/post here on DIYMA somewhere with a diagram on how to do this...the parts you need and the connsection points.
> 
> Nearly all Police/Fire/Ambulance vehicles and ships/boats use commercial versions of these to improve the performance of all of their comms equipment...i.e. radios, computers, GPS/navigation, visual displays, etc.
> 
> Newmar 150-Amp Alternator Filter


No, I didn’t hook anything directly to the DSP.

I will try and see if I can dig some unit up to do that... but what is strange to me is... hooked to the battery... when in ACC mode, noise... start the car, noise... still in run mode I shut the engine off... no noise... so the alternator can’t be the issue if it isn’t running when in ACC mode right?

Then, when AC power is used through a power inverter... almost no noise whether in ACC, car on or off in run mode.

That‘s weird to me.

It’s important to note, with no DSP, amp only, the system is perfectly noise free.
Only when I plug in the power harness with the positive, ground and remote turn on, is there noise... and then, it is quiet in run mode with the engine off.

Thank you for the suggestions... I will post results if I can find a source to run through it.


----------



## bbfoto

^Right...the Alternator can't create noise if it's not turning.

So when you turn the engine off (not running) but leave it in "run" mode, there is absolutely no noise, just as if the DSP was not in the system?

Possible ECM or other computer module or electric fuel pump motor noise. The fuel pump is usually in a round access panel in the sheetmetal under the rear seat with power wiring running to it...it could be close to the DSP. Wouldn't think it would be powered up when in ACC only, though. But I've had some problems with electric modules and fuel pump noise in some of my german vehicles. Damn Gremlins!


----------



## Reko

bbfoto said:


> ^Right...the Alternator can't create noise if it's not turning.
> 
> So when you turn the engine off (not running) but leave it in "run" mode, there is absolutely no noise, just as if the DSP was not in the system?
> 
> Possible ECM or other computer module or electric fuel pump motor noise. The fuel pump is usually in a round access panel in the sheetmetal under the rear seat with power wiring running to it...it could be close to the DSP. Wouldn't think it would be powered up when in ACC only, though. But I've had some problems with electric modules and fuel pump noise in some of my german vehicles. Damn Gremlins!


"Absolutely no noise" is the wrong way to say it... unless we are talking about the system with the amp only... then, there is zero noise present.

Earlier, I described it on a number system from 0-10... with 0 being zero noise and 10 being crazy unbearable noise.

The amp alone = 0

Add the DSP with the power harness which consist only of power, ground and remote turn on:
ACC = 7... yes it really is this terrible... I need to turn the volume up to 15 ( out of 39 ) just to bury the noise... I will not leave it in the car this way... I'd throw the DSP in the trash.
Start the car = 7
Car off but still in run mode = 1 or 2 which I think is very strange... why is this so quiet when ACC is noisy?

So... remove the harness and use the AC wall adapter running from a DC/AC power inverter plugged in the cigarette lighter:
ACC = 1
Car running = 1
Car off in run mode = 1
The high pitch noise is still present but negligible... I can turn the volume up to 4 or 5... very low... and listen to talk radio without hearing the noise.
I can live with this.

I hope that explains it better.

I hope it is in the DSP unit itself... but I am skeptical because there is no logic to when the noise is present.


----------



## bbfoto

Thanks for the breakdown. 

Is the low-level high-pitched noise a constant frequency (consistent), or does it vary in pitch or rhythm?

Well it's the DSP's internal Power Supply that is poor in terms of rejecting/filtering power line noise, and/or causing a ground loop. Or...

Is your amplifier Class D? A lot of Class D amps can radiate EMI/RFI noise to other devices even though their own output noise to the speakers remains perfectly quiet. It's a common problem for the AM/FM Tuner reception to become crappy due to some Class D amps. As an experiment, try separating the amp and the DSP by more distance.

Or again, a rearby computer module or the fuel pump or its wiring is radiating noise into the DSP via airborne EMI/RFI, or via the DSP's power wiring. I once discovered that it was the ABS module in one of my vehicles radiating some spurious random noise in my system.

Since the Ground Loop Isolator that you tried on the DSP made no difference, I would guess that it's airborne EMI/RFI noise. Try wrapping the DSP in Aluminum Foil, and try it with the foil both isolated from the car's chassis (-) ground and then connected to the chassis (-) ground, and see if there is a better/worse difference in the noise.

The only thing that leads me away from this conclusion is that the noise is far less in all situations when you insert the DC/AC power inverter.

And Yes, try a different DSP if you can.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Are you sure you don't want to try using my DSP-408 first? Just the fact that you get noise either way (AC or DC) just makes me wonder if it's a defective DSP. Yes, you get a lot less with AC power, but still, it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with the DSP that is causing the noise. You shouldn't be having _any_ noise at all - and the fact that the noise doesn't exist until you put the DSP in kind of says to me that it's not the wiring, but something with the DSP that is causing your noise issue.
> 
> I really don't mind sending it out - and I'm Coronavirus-free!


JT... I received your DSP and I did a before and after on video, but the videos didn’t turn out.
I kind of wanted to show how bad mine was... I wasn’t kidding when I rated the noise a 7 out of 10... it was bad!

So, I’ll just cut to the chase... I installed your DSP and it is silent... perfect clarity... just like the amp By itself.
On that 0-10 scale... it is now a 0!!!

Daaang... I really didn’t expect that.
My DSP was bad right out of the box.

Thanks JT... for everything... thanks for hanging in there with me!


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> JT... I received your DSP and I did a before and after on video, but the videos didn’t turn out.
> I kind of wanted to show how bad mine was... I wasn’t kidding when I rated the noise a 7 out of 10... it was bad!
> 
> So, I’ll just cut to the chase... I installed your DSP and it is silent... perfect clarity... just like the amp By itself.
> On that 0-10 scale... it is now a 0!!!
> 
> Daaang... I really didn’t expect that.
> My DSP was bad right out of the box.
> 
> Thanks JT... for everything... thanks for hanging in there with me!


Wow - that is awesome! I'll be honest, while I was _hoping_ the DSP was the issue, I wasn't very sure that it actually was the issue - but I'm _so_ glad to hear that it was just a bad DSP out-of-the-box. Hopefully, you're still within the return period, otherwise, you'll have to do a warranty repair (which obviously will take longer). That being said, I _insist_ that you keep my DSP until you get a replacement for yours, whether it be an exchange or a warranty repair - I'm in no hurry whatsoever to get that DSP back. 

Now that we have that noise issue out of the way, we need to move on to getting the dash speakers working (they are your mid _and_ high speakers!) - right now, you are basically using door midbass speakers, rear-deck speakers and a sub. The overall sound and staging will get _so_ much better once we get your dash speakers working. Then we can move on to getting the DSP tuned properly to bring it all together. 

At least we got one item solved - so we're making progress! You made my day - so glad the DSP helped.


----------



## bbfoto

That's awesome. So disregard all of my many long posts, haha! So glad that was all it was. Simple fix!


----------



## Reko

bbfoto said:


> That's awesome. So disregard all of my many long posts, haha! So glad that was all it was. Simple fix!


I sincerely appreciate the help.
Sometimes it's good when things aren't going right...because I learn so dang much.


----------



## Reko

Update.

A few things.
I know I said there was zero noise in the borrowed unit, but I didn't realize it was set up at such a low volume.
I didn't want to mess with the set up because it wasn't my DSP, so I never changed anything or tweaked the EQ.
It just played at a low level... comfortable... nice sounding... but not loud at all.

Anyway, I receive a new Dayton DSP Monday... they chose not to refund... but to send me a new one... Dayton gets 5 stars for service!!!
But... I hooked it up and there was the same noise I experienced with my original DSP.

What I am finding is... when I have it turned up toward the high side... to get the same volume as the amp alone... the noise is bad.
I can get the noise out... by setting it to lower volumes... but it really limits the power of the system.

For instance, if I run with just the amp... it's clean and clear... and the decibels are... and I'm guessing here... let's say 70-80 db... amp alone, no DSP.
But with the Dayton DSP... if I try for the same 70-80 db... there is a lot of noise... too much to keep the DSP hooked up for me.

If I turn DSP volumes down to where there is no noise... I'd say I'm around 30-40 decibels.
It's very clean... very clear... very comfortable... the time/distance settings are awesome... but it's so low in volume I'm not sure it's worth keeping it.

I wonder if the Helix or other DSP would be better, or if I'd still experience noise and need to turn it down?

As a side note... two of the speaker wires fell out of the amp as I was moving things around... I tried to put them back in, but it seems the shop stripped out the set screws in the amp. Now, I'm having a problem getting the sub's speaker wire connected in the amp. I might need to pull everything apart and drill the set screw out and replace it. That shop screwed me in every way possible. smh.

I'm actually thinking about getting a different/better amp... as well as the Helix DSP.

Well, I'll keep at it.. and thanks again for everyone's help, especially JT!!!

It ain't over until it's over!!!


----------



## bbfoto

First off, did you ever get the Kenwood 3.5" coaxial speakers in the dash connected???


Regarding the noise from the Dayton DSP:

The RCA preamp output voltage from the PAC AmpPRO is higher than what the DSP-408 provides. That's one reason it allows your system to play louder and with less noise.

The maximum input sensitivity on the Kenwood amplifier is 5 volts on its RCA preamp inputs in order to match the 5v preamp outputs of Kenwood's eXcelon head units. So when using the Dayton DSP, its 3.5-volt preamp outputs (at best) are not maximizing the signal-to-noise ratio of your gain structure going into the Kenwood amplifier.

Also remember that the AmpPRO is actually more expensive than the Dayton DSP!

While it is a worthwhile unit, you have to realize that the DSP-408 is an extremely inexpensive DSP unit that's built with low'ish-quality parts and a budget circuit design to meet a budget price point. Yes it is a "DSP", but that alone doesn't make it "Hi-End".

I can guarantee that the Helix DSP units are much better in terms of S/N ratio (noise) and overall sound quality, processing & tuning capabilities. They definitely have stronger and cleaner RCA preamp outputs. However, that's a significant jump in price.

And that's really a bummer regarding the stripped speaker terminal screws on your Kenwood amp.  Those are really good amplifiers, so unless you need considerably more power for your system I would probably hold off on replacing it with something different and try to get the Kenwood amp repaired or replaced. If for no other reason, to at least recoup your money if you plan to sell it. No one is going to pay top dollar for an amp with stripped screw terminals.

Was the shop that installed the Kenwood amplifier an Authorized Dealer? If so, I would FIRST contact Kenwood warranty support and explain the situation to them (that the shop installed the entire system for you and they stripped out the terminal screws so that the speaker wires no longer stay in)!

See what Kenwood can or will do. Remind them that this is their top-tier "eXcelon Reference" product with an upgraded 2-year warranty, and you wouldn't expect this to happen at this supposed level of quality that you purposely paid extra to obtain.

Hopefully Kenwood will step up and contact the shop directly and send a replacement unit to them specifically for you so you aren't left to haggle with the shop yourself to try and get it repaired or replaced.

Or perhaps you can send your amplifier directly to Kenwood (photo copy or scan the shop receipt for them) and they can send a new amplifier to you directly, as you obviously DO NOT want that shop to reinstall your new amp!

If the shop is damaging Kenwood's products on a regular basis, it reflects negatively on Kenwood from a consumer's viewpoint and makes their products look cheap (which certain aspects of the design may actually be, but that's besides the point).

I don't think that Kenwood would want an Authorized Dealer to continue installing and sending their products out to consumers that way! It makes both the shop and Kenwood look bad.

Good luck.


----------



## Reko

bbfoto said:


> First off, did you ever get the Kenwood 3.5" coaxial speakers in the dash connected???
> 
> 
> Regarding the noise from the Dayton DSP:
> 
> The RCA preamp output voltage from the PAC AmpPRO is higher than what the DSP-408 provides. That's one reason it allows your system to play louder and with less noise.
> 
> The maximum input sensitivity on the Kenwood amplifier is 5 volts on its RCA preamp inputs in order to match the 5v preamp outputs of Kenwood's eXcelon head units. So when using the Dayton DSP, its 3.5-volt preamp outputs (at best) are not maximizing the signal-to-noise ratio of your gain structure going into the Kenwood amplifier.
> 
> Also remember that the AmpPRO is actually more expensive than the Dayton DSP!
> 
> While it is a worthwhile unit, you have to realize that the DSP-408 is an extremely inexpensive DSP unit that's built with low'ish-quality parts and a budget circuit design to meet a budget price point. Yes it is a "DSP", but that alone doesn't make it "Hi-End".
> 
> I can guarantee that the Helix DSP units are much better in terms of S/N ratio (noise) and overall sound quality, processing & tuning capabilities. They definitely have stronger and cleaner RCA preamp outputs. However, that's a significant jump in price.
> 
> And that's really a bummer regarding the stripped speaker terminal screws on your Kenwood amp.  Those are really good amplifiers, so unless you need considerably more power for your system I would probably hold off on replacing it with something different and try to get the Kenwood amp repaired or replaced. If for no other reason, to at least recoup your money if you plan to sell it. No one is going to pay top dollar for an amp with stripped screw terminals.
> 
> Was the shop that installed the Kenwood amplifier an Authorized Dealer? If so, I would FIRST contact Kenwood warranty support and explain the situation to them (that the shop installed the entire system for you and they stripped out the terminal screws so that the speaker wires no longer stay in)!
> 
> See what Kenwood can or will do. Remind them that this is their top-tier "eXcelon Reference" product with an upgraded 2-year warranty, and you wouldn't expect this to happen at this supposed level of quality that you purposely paid extra to obtain.
> 
> Hopefully Kenwood will step up and contact the shop directly and send a replacement unit to them specifically for you so you aren't left to haggle with the shop yourself to try and get it repaired or replaced.
> 
> Or perhaps you can send your amplifier directly to Kenwood (photo copy or scan the shop receipt for them) and they can send a new amplifier to you directly, as you obviously DO NOT want that shop to reinstall your new amp!
> 
> If the shop is damaging Kenwood's products on a regular basis, it reflects negatively on Kenwood from a consumer's viewpoint and makes their products look cheap (which certain aspects of the design may actually be, but that's besides the point).
> 
> I don't think that Kenwood would want an Authorized Dealer to continue installing and sending their products out to consumers that way! It makes both the shop and Kenwood look bad.
> 
> Good luck.


I got the amp hooked up... the set screws are tight... i won’t need to remove them, so I think I’m good there for now.

I didn’t get to the dash speakers... been saving that for last. It‘s so weird the shop didnt get them working. I have what appears to be the old stock dash speakers... but I can’t picture why the new ones aren’t working.

I’ve watched a few videos on taking the dash apart... so I’ll probably be taking that on this weekend.

I have a line on a used Helix Pro so I’ll probably do that soon... but I do want to play with this Dayton for a bit to get the hang of the settings before moving on to the high end unit.

Thanks!


----------



## bbfoto

Glad that the amp is cooperating!

And WOW, once you get those 3.5" coaxials playing up on the dash it will be Night and Day!

Since you only have 2 amp channels available for all of the front Left & Right Kenwood KFC-XP6903C component speakers, you will have to use the supplied Kenwood in-line Crossovers between the 6x9s in the door and the 3.5" coaxials in the dash.

I would actually disconnect the rear speakers for now until you get another small 2-channel amp for them, and use separate DSP and Amp channels on the front components. That will allow for MUCH better independent Level Control, Time Alignment, and EQ! THAT is why you bought the DSP. The rear speakers are insignificant in regards to achieving a proper front sound stage and good tonality.

You'll also want to make sure that the correct terminals on the 6x9s are hooked up. Those Kenwood 6x9s have built-in XOs on the speaker terminals, but they have a separate set of terminals that bypass those XOs. It explains it in the user manual. 

Here's a video review that includes all of that information. Look about 3/4 into the video for the XO information...






Get those dash coaxials hooked up man! You are seriously missing out!

Good luck.


----------



## jtrosky

@Reko - can you post some screenshots of your Dayton settings? I think there are only 2 screens you need to share with the Dayton - to see all of the settings. Maybe the issue you are having isn't a hardware issue at all - maybe it's a setting issue with the DSP. I thought that the noise was present when the DSP was connected - regardless of the DSP settings - but it sounds like you can get a noise-free system with the DSP connected (if you lower some level settings in the DSP)? 

Also - can you post a picture of how your gains are set on the Kenwood amp? Just curious to see how they have the gains set. There is also a "Minimum Volume Level" setting in the PAC AmpPro, which is kind of like a gain setting for the AmpPro itself. Maybe your issue really is just a gain setup issue.

If you do buy a Helix, I would really recommend that you try to get one of the newer ACO-enabled devices (DSP.3 or better). The DSP.3 really is the "sweet spot" in the Helix line-up, IMO. You can have an awesome DSP for ~$550.... Yes, it's a lot more than the Dayton, but it's also a much better device with MUCH better software (and hardware for that matter). Also, with a Helix, you could run digital between the AmpPro and the Helix, which basically gives you dead-silent connections. There really isn't any chance of "interference" noise with a digital connection.

If you can post the two screenshots of the Dayton settings and a picture of your amp gain settings, that may help someone identify the root cause.


----------



## Reko

bbfoto… any recommendations for a 2 channel amp to power the 3.5" dash speakers?
That is something I want to look into... although I'm not totally committed to that… getting them working with the in-line crossovers with the 6x9's might be good enough.

JT.. I am totally learning on the fly here... total newbie to all this. I didn't even think of turning the Dayton app settings lower... all I want is louder, Lol.
Your DSP was tweaked in pretty nice sounding... but set around 35 or 40 on the master volume, if I remember correctly. I just looked through it... but didn't change any settings.

I wasn't aware the AmpPro had any settings... where can I find that?

I'm going to keep trying with this Dayton for a week or two... if I can't get what I want out of it, sound wise... I'll get a good Helix Pro... that will tell me all I need to know about DSP's... low end to high end.

This is a great learning process.

Later tonight I will post some screenshots.

Thanks guys!!!


----------



## gijoe

Now, I'm figuring out which threads are yours.

By gain structure, what I'm refering to is how much a device changes the input into the output. Your head unit has a volume knob (gain), the PAC piece you're using have a gain too (a switch for 4 or 5 volts I believe), the Dayton DSP has it's own gain, and finally the amp has its own gain. 

If any of those gains are too high you can get noise, and that noise will be amplified by the amp in the final stage. The Kenwood amp should be very clean, but if noise is being fed to it, it will amplify it. Turning the output down on the Dayton could be an option, and maybe even on the PAC. With the head unit you want music to be very loud near 3/4 of the entire volume range. If you're only using the bottom portion of the head unit's volume range to get loud, gains are too high down the chain.

Can you check where the PAC gain switch is set?

Now that I've connected the dots between this thread and your others, we should be able to get to the bottom of this, I should really pay closer attention to people's screen names...


----------



## jtrosky

Reko said:


> I wasn't aware the AmpPro had any settings... where can I find that?


There are two "gain-related" settings on the AmpPro. There is DIP switch 1 (I think), which toggles between 4v and 5v outputs. Another member on here actually said that PAC support recommends using the 4V setting since it's "quieter" in terms of noise. Usually, you'd want higher voltage outputs, but apparently, the 5v outputs on the AmpPro are a sort of "hack" and the hardware wasn't really designed for 5v output, which is why it generates more noise. Besides, the Dayton may not like 5v on it's inputs (don't know it's specs off-hand). So set that DIP switch so it uses 4v outputs.

Then, if you look in the AmpPro manual, you'll see how to change the "Minimum Volume Level", which is sort-of, kind-of a gain setting. I think you can set this with the AmpPro Windows app, but you can also set it with your steering-wheel controls - the AmpPro manual will show you how to enter the mode to set the level. Basically, you hold down some of the steering-wheel controls until you hear a beep - then you use the AmpPro "bass knob" to adjust it the "Minimum Volume Level" - which adjusts how loud the radio is on volume level "1" on the head-unit. Again, follow the procedure in the AMpPro manual. You need to turn the bass knob all of the way down before you start too.

Then we can work on the rest of the gain structure with the help of others in this thread.

EDIT: Also, there is a windows app that oyu can use to set multiple settings on the AmpPro (you can adjust chime volume, bass/mid/treble settings freqs and Q, etc). But you can adjust the chime level and the minimum volume level with your steering-wheel controls without even needing the app by following the directions in the AmpPro manual.


----------



## bbfoto

I'm copying this Post from your other "Amplifier" thread....

Keep the EQ and any other "sound enhancement" settings in your OEM head unit set to OFF or Zero (0).

You definitely need to properly adjust the gains on each component in the signal chain to minimize your noise issues.

The proper term is "Gain Structure". It refers to optimizing the Output Voltage or "Gain", without creating distortion and noise, from the first component in the signal chain (usually the head unit or source unit), to the last component in the chain (usually the power amplifier for your speakers or subwoofers). All components in between the first and last component in the chain, such as a DSP, also need to have their gain or output voltage optimized within the signal chain.

Optimizing your Gain Structure results in the Maximum Output Signal achievable or maximum "Volume" using the components you have installed, while providing the least amount of Noise and Distortion overall.

This is how you would minimize the noise coming from your DSP, and/or any other component in the signal chain.

Watch the following video. When Dave from D'Amore Engineering refers to the "DD-1" or his "Distortion Detector" in the whiteboard diagram, you would instead use your new Oscilloscope to measure the output voltage so that the Waveform on its display is smooth with rounded top and bottom curves, which indicates that there is no clipping noise.

If the sinusoidal waveform on the O-scope display shows cut-off or flattened tops and bottoms (as Dave illustrates in the video), the signal from that device is "clipping" and causing audible distortion (noise).

To measure the maximum, non-clipped voltage output (or "clean signal") you would play a -0dB pure Sine Wave test tone in your head unit. For the subwoofers, it is common to use a 40-50Hz Sine Wave tone, and for your front components amplifier(s), you would commonly use a 1kHz Sine Wave tone. Use Lossless, non-compressed digital files for these sine wave tones.

You can burn 16-bit/44.1kHz sine wave tones onto a CD-R disc to play in your head unit if it does not allow you to play digital files from USB memory storage, etc. They are available to download on many websites such as Rockford-Fosgate, Kicker, JL Audio, etc. You can also create your own using the REW software, or download the "Function Generator" app for Android or similar apps for iPhone or iPad.

You can use Dave's method from this video and always measure from the amplifier's speaker terminals, OR because you are using a true Oscilloscope and not his "DD-1" device, you can measure the maximum, non-clipped output voltage at Each Component in your signal chain, starting with the head unit (or in your case, the RCA outputs on the PAC AmpPRO).

Start watching the video at 7:45







There is also something called "Gain Overlap" when setting your Gain Structure. In this instance, you would use slightly lower in level Sine Wave test tones that are from -5dB to -10dB instead of the full-volume -0dB test tones.

This allows you a bit of "headroom" in order to be able to play music tracks that were recorded and mastered at a lower level and have them play loudly enough on your system.

So if your Gain Structure is set using -0dB test tones and you don't feel that your system gets loud enough, you can try setting the gains using the -5dB to -10dB test tones. As long as you can still turn your system up without experiencing audible distortion, it is okay to do this.

However, if you do this and you still can't turn it up loud enough without causing audible distortion, you need higher power amplifiers, and/or more capable speakers or subwoofers that do not distort when playing high levels.

Speakers and subwoofers that can play at louder levels, remain clean and distortion-free, and still maintain smooth/even frequency response are usually much more expensive, and that is what you are paying for...better performance by using more advanced designs and materials.

Good luck.


----------



## Reko

Update

I tried everything possible with the AmpPro dip switches... but the noise didn’t budge... 5 amp 4 amp... same noise.

I received 2 PAC RCA noise filters from Amazon on Wednesday... decided to give them a try tonight.

I cranked up the DSP volume to full blast and turned the radio volume all the way down so that all I could hear was the static noise... which, BTW was so loud I have a headache... but anyway...

I unplugged RCA connectors coming out of the PAC unit... silence... so I put the filters there... which is before the RCA cables running to the back of the car that plug into the Dayton DSP... I installed the noise filters coming right out of the AmpPro...and voilà... no more noise... ZERO NOISE... and that’s with the Dayton DSP pegged full blast on all channels.

Man, now this system is LOUD and now when i turn it down... dead silent.

That was it... that was the fix I was looking for!

It sounds great.
I could quit now and be happy.

I‘m still planning to run the mic software and play with the Dayton DSP... but now that I’m over this hump... the frustration should be over.

Still gotta get the front tweeters working... I’ve been hesitant to pull the dash apart... afraid of breaking something... but I’ll get to it.

Thanks again for everyone’s help and encouragement!


----------



## bbfoto

Great news! 

Try using this to pry up your dash speaker grills...

Keenso Red Plastic Wedge Panel Removal Tool @ Amazon

You can find other panel removal tools and handy tools for car audio installation in general here...

Dean & Fernando's Tool Drawer - 5 Star Car Stereo


----------



## jtrosky

Hmm, that is interesting. I would have never expected "noise filters" (are they "ground loop isolators"?) to work when they were installed _before_ the long RCA runs! If anything, I would think that they would have worked when installed between the DSP and the amp (since the noise is only present when the DSP is connected). 

So being that they remove the noise when installed between the AmpPro and the RCA cables (at the _beginning_ of the RCA cable), what does that tell us? Wouldn't that mean that the noise has to be coming from the AmpPro? However, that doesn't make any sense, because the noise isn't there if the DSP is removed from the signal chain (if the noise was coming from the AmpPro, you'd think it would still be present even when the DSP is removed from the signal chain). 

I know it doesn't really matter to the OP - he's just happy that the noise is gone, but it would drive me absolutely crazy until I knew what the root cause was.  I do also wonder how the ground loop isolators effect the sound quality - I've always read that they negatively impact the sound quality.

OP - where is the AmpPro physically installed? I'm wondering if the AmpPro is picking up some kind of EFI-type noise due to it's physical install location... Again, I know it doesn't really matter to you at this point, so I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I'm really curious where the noise is coming from, being that I use the same AmpPro on the same vehicle. I have mine installed on the back of the cardboard-like material that is above the gas/brake-pedal area. It's just industrial-strength velcro'd to the back of that piece. The reason that I installed mine there was so I could gain physical access to the AmpPro easily if needed in the future (firmware updates, dip-switch settings, cabling access, etc). Although, again, that still doesn't explain why there is no noise if the DSP is taken out of the picture... Hmm... Very strange. Curious what the folks smarter and more experienced than myself think about this. 

Anyway.... Glad to hear that the noise is gone!!!  Can't wait until you can get those dash speakers working now! If you are happy with the sound quality now, just wait until you get the dash speakers working and the entire system tuned!!!


----------



## Reko

bbfoto said:


> Great news!
> 
> Try using this to pry up your dash speaker grills...
> 
> Keenso Red Plastic Wedge Panel Removal Tool @ Amazon
> 
> You can find other panel removal tools and handy tools for car audio installation in general here...
> 
> Dean & Fernando's Tool Drawer - 5 Star Car Stereo


Thanks... I purchased a kit.

This is the part I hate because I always end up breaking a clip or something and my car is never the same... but the front tweeters are officially next on my list to get working.
I drove around for a few hours now that the noise issue is gone... and everything sounds AMAZING... except not having those front dash speakers is a glaring hole in the sound.


----------



## Reko

jtrosky said:


> Hmm, that is interesting. I would have never expected "noise filters" (are they "ground loop isolators"?) to work when they were installed _before_ the long RCA runs! If anything, I would think that they would have worked when installed between the DSP and the amp (since the noise is only present when the DSP is connected).
> 
> So being that they remove the noise when installed between the AmpPro and the RCA cables (at the _beginning_ of the RCA cable), what does that tell us? Wouldn't that mean that the noise has to be coming from the AmpPro? However, that doesn't make any sense, because the noise isn't there if the DSP is removed from the signal chain (if the noise was coming from the AmpPro, you'd think it would still be present even when the DSP is removed from the signal chain).
> 
> I know it doesn't really matter to the OP - he's just happy that the noise is gone, but it would drive me absolutely crazy until I knew what the root cause was.  I do also wonder how the ground loop isolators effect the sound quality - I've always read that they negatively impact the sound quality.
> 
> OP - where is the AmpPro physically installed? I'm wondering if the AmpPro is picking up some kind of EFI-type noise due to it's physical install location... Again, I know it doesn't really matter to you at this point, so I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I'm really curious where the noise is coming from, being that I use the same AmpPro on the same vehicle. I have mine installed on the back of the cardboard-like material that is above the gas/brake-pedal area. It's just industrial-strength velcro'd to the back of that piece. The reason that I installed mine there was so I could gain physical access to the AmpPro easily if needed in the future (firmware updates, dip-switch settings, cabling access, etc). Although, again, that still doesn't explain why there is no noise if the DSP is taken out of the picture... Hmm... Very strange. Curious what the folks smarter and more experienced than myself think about this.
> 
> Anyway.... Glad to hear that the noise is gone!!!  Can't wait until you can get those dash speakers working now! If you are happy with the sound quality now, just wait until you get the dash speakers working and the entire system tuned!!!


AmpPro is tucked in the dash next to the radio.
You're right... perhaps I should investigate more... but honestly, with the filters, it is dead silent with all the DSP settings pegged at the top of their volume.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with the noise issue. 
It sounds great... it really does... and that's without even messing with the DSP other than the time settings.
I don't think those filter affect the sound... at least not that I can tell.
When I turn it up to 30 ( out of 38 ) it's perfect... loud... clear... I tend to listen to clarity of music judging by the drums and bass guitar... the rest takes care of itself. 
I can hear the kick drum crystal clear... and the bass guitar is separated perfectly... I can hear the distinct sound of the snare... everything is coming through except the ride/cymbal because the tweeters aren't working. I love the sub volume control that the PAC unit has... adjustable for every song to get the low end just right. I can't wait to see how the mic and REW software help.

This is turning out exactly as I had hoped it would.

2 steps left... get those dash speakers working... then use the mic/REW software to help set the DSP.

Thanks again... for everything!!!!!!!!!


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## Reko

Tweeter Update:
I got the dash taken apart... to be honest, I was hoping the place that screwed up this system forgot to hook up the tweeters or something simple. 
But the tweeters look fine and are hooked up with a small box in line that I assume is the passive crossover. It says Kenwood on it.

I left everything apart because I didn't have time to take the door panels off... that'll happen... hopefully... this weekend.

I have to assume it is wired incorrectly at the 6x9's.

I still can't believe they screwed me this badly... and they aren't even open so I can go back there and complain.


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## jtrosky

Reko said:


> Tweeter Update:
> I got the dash taken apart... to be honest, I was hoping the place that screwed up this system forgot to hook up the tweeters or something simple.
> But the tweeters look fine and are hooked up with a small box in line that I assume is the passive crossover. It says Kenwood on it.
> 
> I left everything apart because I didn't have time to take the door panels off... that'll happen... hopefully... this weekend.
> 
> I have to assume it is wired incorrectly at the 6x9's.
> 
> I still can't believe they screwed me this badly... and they aren't even open so I can go back there and complain.


Thanks for the update. I sure hope it's something simple when you look at the midbass door speakers.

I will say - the door panels on these Challengers are relatively easy to remove and re-install. I love the fact that they use actual screws along the bottom of the door panel. The door panels on my 2012 Impala don't have any screws along the bottom - all "clips". I just think that screws do a much better job.

Looking forward to hearing what you find in the doors.


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## lorenhoward

I have the Excelon speakers, shallow mount 12", and Amp Pro in my 2018 Challenger. Currently running a Pioneer 5 channel but have been looking at the XR901-5, 401-4, and Dayton DSP for a 3 way full active setup. Thanks for all the info here. Consider me subscribed.


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## Reko

Update: Tweeters finally installed!!!

So... I know it took forever, but I’ve been sooooo busy.
Decided to stay home here in Michigan for Memorial Day weekend and get some things done at home... and finally tackled the tweeters.

I bought a Boss 2 channel amp because I really want to take advantage of the final 2 channels on the DSP.
Pulled off all the trim necessary to run the wires from the dash tweeters to the back.
Ran the speaker wire, everything is soldered, BTW, using sealed connectors and a heat gun throughout my whole system. Hooked up the power and remote turn on... then fired it up.

JT... man were you ever right!
Getting those dash speakers working was really a huge upgrade!
It really rounds out the system.

So... back to my rating scale...
Started out stock at 3 out of 10.
After getting the Kenwood Excelon system installed at that crappy shop with generic PAC units and resistors... it was better, but not great at 5 out of 10.

That‘s when I came here for help... thanks JT... adding the AmpPro and DSP got me to 7 out of 10... even without the dash speakers that never did work after the shop was finished.

So that brings me to today... dash speakers installed run with a 2 channel Boss amp running through the DAYTON DSP... I am now sitting at 9 out of 10!!!

The sound is big and full... and really loud!

This has really turned into the special system I was looking for when I started this project a long time ago.

Now... just one more step... use the mic and the software to set the DSP.
I have it sounding great by ear... but I am anxious to see what that brings to the table.
Hopefully... 10 out of 10 😀

Thanks again JT... for all the help and encouragement along the way.... I never could have done this without you!

Thanks to everyone else too, that helped... what a great resource this website is!!!


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## jtrosky

That is awesome news!! You'll easily get to a 10 out of 10 once you get the DSP fully figured out and tuned. However, the DSP tuning is probably the hardest part and will take the longest. It takes lots of time and patience. However, what you _can_ do pretty easily is get the levels set and time-alignment set. That alone will help a lot (if not already done). EQ and phase takes a lot more work and I'm still trying to figure it all out myself. The good news is that you can work on it little by little - it will always sound at least as good as it does now.  You can keep a preset for your current tune and use another preset (or more) to learn with.

I'm so glad you stuck with it and figured it all out yourself. A lot of people would have given up. If you enjoy this kind of thing (and I think you do!), it'll be time well spent. There is a certain "pride" that comes with successfully installing your own system. 

Of course, the forum is here to help along the way as you learn to tune that DSP!

You're probably better off than I am right now. I upgraded to more expensive dash speakers and ended up damaging one somehow, so my system is a little crippled right now - and I'm too lazy to put the Kenwoods back in right now (have new speakers on the way though). Probably should have just left well-enough along and left the Kenwood dash speakers in there!  

Anyway - thanks for the update - I really appreciate it. Now you get to reap the rewards and enjoy the great sounding music!


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