# Time alignment and sound stage



## adam_rostron (Jun 14, 2014)

Hi All,

I'm still new when it comes to time alignment and how to use it in order to shift the sound stage.

I've managed to use time alignment between front woofers and front tweeters in order to get the vocals coming from the same point in the dash rather than being able to hear vocals from both sides. so sweet. sounds a million times better.

The problem I'm having is, how do I get the stage to shift to the left. As it is the voices are coming from what sounds like the front right of the dash, just above the steering wheel (australia is right hand drive). I need to shift it about 10" to the left. 

Does this mean I should lower the delay on the left side and increase it on the right? or is this a limitation on my setup? I've attached a picture. 
Channel 1 - Front right tweeter 2300 HPF 12db Butterworth
Channel 2 - front left tweeter 2300 HPF 12db Butterworth
Channel 3 - Front right woofer 2300 LPF 12 DB butterworth 
Channel 4 - front left woofer. 2300 LPF 12 DB butterworth 

I have Hybrid Audio L1pro2 ring radiator tweeters installed in factory locations of a volkswagen jetta, they are aimed towards the dash. I have a mosconi 6-8v8 processor which i'm using for the time alignment.


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## plushterry (Jan 22, 2015)

Measure the distance between your head and the furthest speaker. This is the reference point. Say it's XXcm, now measure the distances to your other speakers. You need to subtract these distances from XX to give you the amount of delay to use on each of these speakers. If you want to move the sound left or right, then you should adjust the delay on both sides accordingly (add to one, subtract from the other)


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

Yes lower the left side will shift the stage left. But things are not quite as simple as that because changing the delay is also shifting the phase of that speaker. When you can get the delay, phase and Eq all aligned and working together in your car it can sound pretty sweet.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Mmm, sorry hi jack this thread. Let me see if I get this clear since I'm trying to do the same thing and I'm reading different ways to do it.

First I heard if bi amping, do not TA the tweeters.

Based on what I understand. Say the OP's head sitting on the right (Aus driver's seat) the distance from his head to the furthest midbass is 60 ", and the distance from his head to the right speaker is 40" 60 minus 40 is 20, the closer speaker should be delayed 20". The furthest is left at 0 or no delay. Then if the voice needs to be moved towards the left or center he should increase the TA on the right, can't decrease the left anymore since it is 0. 

Is that it? Or am I missing something?


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

EQ'ing is going to play a big roll in your stage too. If your left side isn't level matched to your right then you'll get a lot of pulling and smearing in your soundstage. Time alignment can only cure so much.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> Mmm, sorry hi jack this thread. Let me see if I get this clear since I'm trying to do the same thing and I'm reading different ways to do it.
> 
> First I heard if bi amping, do not TA the tweeters.
> 
> ...


Correct. although bi-amping tweeters isn't the issue. its that the wavelength is so short at the upper freq that t/a isn't effective. using attenuation is better. but if the tweets are crossed low t/a can still be effective.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> EQ'ing is going to play a big roll in your stage too. If your left side isn't level matched to your right then you'll get a lot of pulling and smearing in your soundstage. Time alignment can only cure so much.


Eq level matching makes a huge difference. Like icing on the cake.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Thanks for the good info and clearing things up

Do levels need to be matched before the crossover points are adjusted?

Any tips to balance mids by ear or any free app that may help it without an external mic?

Any clues of why the music sounds great but I get headaches even eq flat or below? Even at moderate volume level the other day I was listening to
AM radio talk only and I could not stand it just seconds in to it

I reduced the tweeters levels, tried crossing them lower, higher, tried 12db, 24 db slopes and similar results.

With my bi ampable passives I had none of those issues


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthfully, to get it to sound perfect you really need some kind of mic measuring setup. The left and right speakers need to be level matched and then time aligned and then left right eq needs to be done to center the image perfectly. Time alignment and left right level intensity is pretty hard to get right without some form of measuring setup. I do find I can get it pretty close with a solid measuring/setup disc (like Autosound 2000) and my ears but for left right measuring a mic is probably the best bet. Having 1/3 octave band limited pink noise tracks sure helped me out as well.


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## adam_rostron (Jun 14, 2014)

thanks for all the positve replys.

so happy no one picked up on the fact that I have all of the speakers delayed LOL.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I just want to add something. If you get the center to be right in front of the steering wheel you'll end up with a right stage that is compressed and a nice big left stage. The physical boundaries will prevent you from having an even left-right balance if you put the center in front of you. I recommend making the center of the dash the center (try to get center vocals to come from the center of your hood. If you do this then both the left and right side will be represented equally. If you center in front of you, one side will have all of the content squished into a few inches of stage, while the other side will span the rest of the space. It doesn't sound good like this.


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm surprised that no one has posted this yet. The top of the page helps calculate TA and at the bottom of the page is a calculator for moving the stage left or right once you have a good image. I haven't used this yet so I can't really comment on it's usefulness, but Erin has it embedded in his signature so it must be good.

http://tracerite.com/calc.html


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

adam_rostron said:


> thanks for all the positve replys.
> 
> so happy no one picked up on the fact that I have all of the speakers delayed LOL.



Mmm, If I didn't, maybe my first post helped you realized you needed to evaluate your settings 


In my experience to really notice a centered stage, I noticed I have to listen to cars with $800 sound processors tuned properly and by very experienced and skilled people.

Without EQ per channel, independent channel levels and drivers placed on the best locations, it is not possible to place the singer centered or narrow his position. It may be close but wide or more one side or hard to locate it. 


Also the singer's main voice is not always in the center of the stage, to tune a car with no DSP the Music or the singer has to be accurate and on the center to get it close.





gijoe said:


> I just want to add something. If you get the center to be right in front of the steering wheel you'll end up with a right stage that is compressed and a nice big left stage. The physical boundaries will prevent you from having an even left-right balance if you put the center in front of you. I recommend making the center of the dash the center (try to get center vocals to come from the center of your hood. If you do this then both the left and right side will be represented equally. If you center in front of you, one side will have all of the content squished into a few inches of stage, while the other side will span the rest of the space. It doesn't sound good like this.


Yes, thanks, this is what I have been experiencing or trying to do, due to not having EQ per ch. LR balancing is a no good way to try to do it, it takes way too much to one or another side, with levels in my case with 4 ch bridged just for the midbass, I have a chance to make it better reducing levels for either of those channels.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Because EQ can interfere with level matching, you can calculate the correct theoretical value based on sound and distance. Here is one from Crown.
Inverse Square Law Calculator

You can use this as a starting pint and work your EQ from there. I found that this really makes a difference together with properly calculated delay. My method has been to calculate time delay and level. Input these, then proceed with EQ.


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