# Vertex Barrier Pad



## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Well i have been on a search to decrease the road noise and noise in general in my 2000 Toyota Celica. I currently have a TRD exhaust system and wanted to hear the music more than the exhaust, so i went on a mission to solve the problem....

I research and researched and came to the conclusion that i need some sort of sound barrier to stop the noise from coming into the cabin. The best mat deadener that i have used is RAAMmat BXT but the main focus is to stop vibrations, then i also used Ensolite which is a closed cell foam to absorb sound waves, so what next?

I was in search for a barrier of sorts which lead me to something containing a mass loaded layer with acoustical foam. The first choice was a lead layer with acoustical foam, similar to what Cascade offers but the price was too expensive for me. So two others were options for me Second Skin LuxuryLiner and Vertex Barrier Pad.

Anthony from Second Skin was gracious enough to send me a sample of LuxuryLiner and i got some Vertex Barrier Pad (VBP) from John (aka FoxPro5/B-Squad) as well. I got both products and compared them to construction, material used, and durability. I decided to go with the VBP due to superiority to material and construction IMO. The foam was more dense and thicker and the mass loaded vinyl layer just seemed more durable.

I installed the VBP foam side down on the floor on top of already laid down RAAMmat BXT and put the OEM carpet back on top. It can be compressed so it easily put everything back without any problems or lumps. I also decided to put the VBP on the doors as well using adhesive spray and metal screws with larger washers to the sheet metal.

I took a drive an noticed how much the VBP helped, the road noise was greatly decreased and the music seemed louder. I also decided to park the car and see if i could hear the music outside the vehicle. It was a night and day difference, not nearly the amount of music was coming out as before  I couldnt say anything negative about the product. It performed as advertised and wouldnt hesitate to make it a staple in my future installs. I dont think its effectiveness can be compared to anything else out there when you take into account price/performance or not 

Here is a sample picture of a comparison between Second Skin LuxuryLiner and Vertex Barrier Pad (sorry for the blurry pics :blush:

Vertex on top, Second Skin on bottom









Vertex is vertical, Second Skin is horizontal


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## hc_TK (Jan 18, 2006)

where did you buy this?


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

hc_TK said:


> where did you buy this?


PM the DIYMA member FoxPro5 aka B-Squad, owner of Vertex


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

hc_TK said:


> where did you buy this?


4th paragraph. Ant is owner of second skin, B-Squad sells the vertex, he had a clearance on it before christmas.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

hc_TK said:


> where did you buy this?


From...



azngotskills said:


> Anthony from Second Skin was gracious enough to send me a sample of LuxuryLiner and *i got some Vertex Barrier Pad (VBP) from John (aka FoxPro5/B-Squad) as well.* I got both products and compared them to construction, material used, and durability. I decided to go with the VBP due to superiority to material and construction IMO. The foam was more dense and thicker and the mass loaded vinyl layer just seemed more durable.


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## Suneet (Jun 19, 2007)

Sounds exactly like what I'm looking for! Did you try it out in the doors at all? I'd like to see how much of a difference that makes. I have a ton of road noise and out here in Seattle its quite a bit worse because of how poor the roads are.

How much does this stuff cost, with enough to cover the floor and doors with 1 layer?


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Suneet said:


> Sounds exactly like what I'm looking for! Did you try it out in the doors at all? I'd like to see how much of a difference that makes. I have a ton of road noise and out here in Seattle its quite a bit worse because of how poor the roads are.
> 
> How much does this stuff cost, with enough to cover the floor and doors with 1 layer?


I also put it on the doors...re-read the review  As far as pricing PM the DIYMA member FoxPro5 and im sure he can guide you in the right direction to how much coverage is needed. Great customer service!!!!


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## rekd0514 (Sep 24, 2006)

Pictures?!


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

rekd0514 said:


> Pictures?!


I will get those up...im currently in Dallas but will get them up. I didnt take that many though


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

Suneet said:


> Sounds exactly like what I'm looking for! Did you try it out in the doors at all? I'd like to see how much of a difference that makes. I have a ton of road noise and out here in Seattle its quite a bit worse because of how poor the roads are.
> 
> How much does this stuff cost, with enough to cover the floor and doors with 1 layer?


Yes, the roads around here are AWFUL. 

If you want to come check out some VBP in person, I have 90lbs (67.5 sq.ft) of it just sitting in my room  LMK.

You could probably do your floor with 1 of the 3 rolls I have... 22.5sq.ft, or around $140 or so shipped IIRC?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hey guys,

First off, thanks for your review azn. Glad it worked out well for you. I appreciate the feedback.

Suneet: You can instal VBP on your door skins with an agressive enough adhesive. I recommend a construction adhesive like Liquid Nails. I have one layer of VMax and one layer of VBP on my rear doors and they now fell like dense plastic when you knock them. Adding VBP to sheet metal does two things: 1) it mass-loads the surface making it harder to move and 2) adds a very effective noise blocker (which is the mass loaded vinyl in the pad).

One thing to keep in mind is that you can never really completely eliminate noise in a car, just attenuate it. Any noise containment product is going to have its limits and work better in certain areas of your car. Also, something like VBP used for blocking road noise is frequency-dependent. Therefore, a multi-material approach is usually the best for the war against noise in our cars IMHO. 

For pricing and other information please contact me directly: john dot vmsp at gmail dot com.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

One issue is, you can put a sound absorbing pad on the glass. Lots of noise comes in there (and from the fact you can't really have a tight fit between the window and the gasket/felt on the door or it would wear out pretty quickly). 

Juan


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

OldOneEye said:


> One issue is, you can put a sound absorbing pad on the glass. Lots of noise comes in there (and from the fact you can't really have a tight fit between the window and the gasket/felt on the door or it would wear out pretty quickly).
> 
> Juan


I don't quite understand you method. Do you mean use the VBP aroud the window seal area? This VPB sounds very promising. I thinking about doing the same with the VBP, like Mark.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

drake78 said:


> I don't quite understand you method. Do you mean use the VBP aroud you window seal area? This VPB sounds very promising. I thinking about doing the same with the VBP, like Mark.


Sorry, meant to say you CAN'T put anything on the window. So you could cover the entire car with 9" thick of sound deadener, but you still have the glass to contend with. Nothing you can do about it (although I've seen some guys use covers on the side windows, but that was more for reflection in competition settings).

Juan


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> Sorry, meant to say you CAN'T put anything on the window. So you could cover the entire car with 9" thick of sound deadener, but you still have the glass to contend with. Nothing you can do about it (although I've seen some guys use covers on the side windows, but that was more for reflection in competition settings).
> 
> Juan


The only time I've heard of using 'covers' on the windows was I think Matt Roberts, or someone in Team Zapco, who used them for sensory deprivation so the judges wouldn't get distracted. They were magnetic and went on the outside of the car, not on the inside where some kind of sound absorption mat could help with reflections IIRC.

Or was that what you were talking about, I'm a bit confused on the wording.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

DonovanM said:


> The only time I've heard of using 'covers' on the windows was I think Matt Roberts, or someone in Team Zapco, who used them for sensory deprivation so the judges wouldn't get distracted. They were magnetic and went on the outside of the car, not on the inside where some kind of sound absorption mat could help with reflections IIRC.


Mark Eldridge had some made (used on the inside) as did Gary Biggs I think. Seen other guys use big towels or covers on the outside of the windshield for keeping heat out and people from distracting judges.

Juan


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Road noise and engine noise while sitting in a lane during judging?  

The very best method to attenuating noise is to go directly to the source. And it's true, glass is a weakness in cars for noise, but not weakest. 

A _rough _comparison of transmission loss in materials:
Glass (1/4"): -12 dB @ 125 hz; -88 dB @ 500 hz
Lead (1/32"): - 12dB @ 125 hz; -20 db @ 500 hz (-170 db if it was 1/4" thick )
Steel (16 gauge): -18 dB @ 125 hz; - 38 db @ 500 hz

Mass loaded vinyl (MLV, 1/8"): - 16 dB @ 125 hz; - 21 @ 500 hz
Deadening mat (aluminum-backed, 67 mils): 0 db @ 125 hz; -14 dB @ 500 hz 

So you can see comparatively, glass is much more effective at attenuating noise than steel in our cars because it's thicker. It's all about surface mass and relative density. This is where lead comes in. It's ~5x more dense than poured concrete. It's heavy and very easy to work with because it's so limp, but it's pretty expensive and not the most friendly of environmental materials you want around. 

Our next best bet is MLV because it's cost effective and easy to work with. 

Since our cars have large flat panels of steel like door skins, roof, back seat buckets, etc...it's best to get a barrier right down to the source and block it from coming in. MLV works great in this application and is even more effective if it can "float' above the surface with composite foam decoupler, which is exactly what VBP is. 

I guess if you really wanted to put the ultimate stop to noise coming in, you'd start with decoupling the resonant surface with "sound deadener" followed by a nice thick acoustical foam, and then a 1/16" sheet of lead (3 lbs/sqft) and top it off with a nice soft layer of closed cell foam glued to the lead with Green Glue. But I suppose you wouldn't be able to hear if your car was even running at that point!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

In MECA it is within the rules to blacken out all of the glass on the car...from the outside. Not sure if they have rules against covering from the inside of the car or not, but probably do since everyone does this on the outside.

In IASCA, you used to be able to cover the glass on the inside (not including windshield and front doors). You had to leave the windshield and front doors uncovered- can't even have a towel on it.



DonovanM said:


> The only time I've heard of using 'covers' on the windows was I think Matt Roberts, or someone in Team Zapco, who used them for sensory deprivation so the judges wouldn't get distracted. They were magnetic and went on the outside of the car, not on the inside where some kind of sound absorption mat could help with reflections IIRC.
> 
> Or was that what you were talking about, I'm a bit confused on the wording.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> Road noise and engine noise while sitting in a lane during judging?
> 
> The very best method to attenuating noise is to go directly to the source. And it's true, glass is a weakness in cars for noise, but not weakest.
> 
> ...



John my mw172's are on crank now and i needs me some to further battle my dp resonance. I 'll be contacting you soon privately . I'll roll with your suggestions/game plan, that pad looks very effective. Thanks for bringing it to DIY-ers attention.

Thanks for the review AZn.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Not a problem


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