# Another HLCD Placement Thread!



## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

I have a project car at the stage where I need to start deciding on speaker placement for the audio system since we are now finalizing interior fab.

The car is completely gutted so I shouldn't have the usual fitment/placement issues associated with finished cars.

I was thinking of running a set of ID mini horns but I've never actually seen one in person so I don't know the dimensions of the horn bodies and CD's. Can someone post the dimensions? Dimensions should note how much installation room I'll need as the horns are oddly shaped so whatever clearance I'll need under dash is really the info I am seeking. There is an aftermarket Vintage Air A/C unit in that area and I need to make sure I can clear it with the horns.

I've read that the optimal placement for this type of speaker is as far back and as wide apart as you can from the listener so I have 2 options. I can mount them under dash in the corner next to the kick panel area firing in between the seats or I could mount them in the dash. If I mounted them in the dash I was thinking something like this on both sides:










Only drawback I see to mounting them this way is they'll be firing straight at the listener as opposed to firing in between the seats. Not sure if that's good or bad!

As you can see from the picture I should have enough room to mount an 8" mid-bass(Suggestions on any one brand that would work well with the horns?) at the back of the kick panel angled to fire in between the bucket seats which is the plan so far with the limited knowledge that I've been able to gather so far. BTW I'm a complete newb to this so please bear with my kooky ideas and rudimentary questions!

I would like to design the system around the horns as this is the suggestion that I have read on most of the forums like this that I have been reading to gather as much info on audio as I can.

BTW my listening preferences go from Bad Company to Beethoven so the soundscape is going to be pretty diverse. I'd like a system that can play all these without a hiccup!

I was contemplating running a 10" single sub enclosed between the tubs but I read a comment from someone on here that said that would ruin the front stage:










If you're interested in the entire build here's a link:

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78088

Comments or opinions wanted and appreciated!

John


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Wow, just read your build thread. Fantastic work!

I'll leave horn comments to those who know about horns (I do not), but I will say that I'm very jealous of those kick panels. There's a lot that you can do up there.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I am sure some others will come in there who have more knowledge than me. but, from what I know of it. you will not want them that high in the dash. as you suspected, I think having them that high will give poor dispersion. 

most people say as far from the user, back in the dash as much as posible and as wide as posible.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Place the horns far left and right underneath the dash. Equal Path lengths are better than a higher mounting position. You have the room for either horn, but if you are trying to keep the use of space as small as possible use the MH. 

You will want to finish the underside of the dash where the horns will be mounted.

Are you going for a SQ competition car or a good sounding high output daily driver?

Eric


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

not in a position to comment on horn placement, but *DAMN*, props to the car. That is a LOT of hard work, well done!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

DAAAAAYYYUUUMM! Somebody knows how to bend a few tubes. GREAT looking frame! The attention to detail is awesome. I kept wondering if you were gong to force feed the thing or levae it NA. Then I got to page 4. NIIICEEE!

BTW - Just in case you didn't know Eric Stephens was behind the design and initial production/marketing of the ID horns so he is the definitive voice on horn placement... As far as a 10" sub in the trunk ruining the stage it just won't happen if you set your xover and gains properly.

I can't wait to see this thing after paint and final touches.


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks Fellas! I appreciate the words of encouragement! Yes, it has been quite a journey but she's finally getting close to completion. Kind of sad actually. It sure was fun seeing her come together but I'm sure my sadness will be replaced by a HUGE smile once I start her up!!!:rockon:



Eric Stevens said:


> Place the horns far left and right underneath the dash. Equal Path lengths are better than a higher mounting position. You have the room for either horn, but if you are trying to keep the use of space as small as possible use the MH.
> 
> You will want to finish the underside of the dash where the horns will be mounted.
> 
> ...


I assume MH means mini horn. I was aware that there are larger horn bodies but are you saying that your first choice would be to go with a larger horn body rather than the minis, and if so, why? What would be the best positioning under dash? Firing at the passengers shins or angled in between the seats?

I'm not going to be competing with the car. I'm going for a good sounding high output daily driver as you suggested. I'm just trying to take advantage of the fact that I have the car in the state that it's in and can mount the speakers in the most optimal place.

So far the component list is going to be the horns in front with some 8" mid bass in the kicks and a 10" sub in between the tubs. I'm still not sure whether or not it would be a good idea to run a set of rear fills. H/U will probably be an Alpine IDA-X305S. Still trying to figure out what would be the best choice for a processor.

Suggestions are welcome!!

John


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

The Audison Bit One and Zapco DSP6 would make good choices for your intended setup.

There's been a bunch of buzz over the Mosconi DSP recently as well.

Have you made a choice on amplification yet?


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Se7en said:


> The Audison Bit One and Zapco DSP6 would make good choices for your intended setup.
> 
> There's been a bunch of buzz over the Mosconi DSP recently as well.
> 
> Have you made a choice on amplification yet?


Thanks for the suggestions!! Am I going to need that many channels?

No, haven't really decided on amplification yet....suggestions?

John


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

novanutcase said:


> I assume MH means mini horn. I was aware that there are larger horn bodies but are you saying that your first choice would be to go with a larger horn body rather than the minis, and if so, why? What would be the best positioning under dash? Firing at the passengers shins or angled in between the seats?
> 
> I'm not going to be competing with the car. I'm going for a good sounding high output daily driver as you suggested. I'm just trying to take advantage of the fact that I have the car in the state that it's in and can mount the speakers in the most optimal place.
> 
> ...


maybe this will clean up the mounting issues. they can really only mount in one direction. yes there are two two types. main advantage of the minihorn is space. they take less of it to mount  they also have a higher angle crossfire pattern than the fullsize. the main advantage of the fullsize is that they will play down to about 800 hz as opposed to about 1000-1200 hz on the mini body.

here are the two.

full size:









mini:









as you can see, you cant really mess up what direction they mount. they only mount in one direction. 

As for the midbass, most important part with installing horns is efficiency. since the horns are 107-110dB sensitive , you will need fraction of the power for them as you will need for the midbass. like 10:1.


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks! That helps but what I'm really looking for is L/W/H of each so that I know how much of a cavity I will need to mount them in. I would imagine that with the full bodies being able to go down that low I could get away with a 6 1/2" mid as opposed to the minis which would pair up better with the 8's filling out the frequencies that the minis drop off or will the 6 1/2's work for either horn?

So...from what I've seen and read as of late the horn should be mounted into the corner of the footwell next to the kick panel firing in between the seats(or would it be better to point it at the user but clocking it slightly more towards the center rather than in a straight line pointing at the user? or does it even matter?). How high up in the dash area can I mount them without compromising sound quality? I'd like to try and hide them as best I can. Should the horn mouths have a direct line of sight pathlength or can they be shrouded and still get an effective dispersal pattern?

I didn't see any mount holes or brackets. What would be the best way to mount them? Is there a separate bracket that I can use?

As far as amplification, because of the low power usage the horns require, would it be better to run two separate amps, a low wattage unit to drive the horns and a higher wattage unit to run the rest of the system or can they all be run off of one amp? Maybe a four or five channel amp? I've read some threads that have claimed that the low wattage requirements of the horns are making attenuation difficult.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

novanutcase said:


> Thanks! That helps but what I'm really looking for is L/W/H of each. I would imagine that with the full bodies being able to go down that low I could get away with a 6 1/2" mid as opposed to the minis which would pair up better with the 8's filling out the frequencies that the minis drop off?


i would still go with an 8" if you can fit it. once you install them you will thank me, lol. overcoming the efficiency of these things is tough, lol. I am looking at running dual 6.5" each door and it is still gonna be lagging, lol.
not sure exactly the dims of it. they are about 1 1/2" high.



> So...from what I've seen and read as of late the horn should be mounted into the corner of the footwell next to the kick panel firing in between the seats(or would it be better to point it at the user but clocking it slightly more towards the center rather than in a straight line pointing at the user? or does it even matter?). How high up in the dash area can I mount them without compromising sound quality? I'd like to try and hide them as best as I can. Should the horn mouths have a direct line of sight pathlength or can they be shrouded and still get an effective dispersal pattern?


you dont want to angle them at all. the mouth should remain plum and facing the user with no degrees of of angle. 
you can use whatever grill cloth, etc you want. you just want to make sure the mouth of the horn is unobstructed.
if you look at the pics of the horns, the little "legs" that come off each side of the horn mouth? those can be trimmed in any way you see fit to fit them, just so long as the mouth is not altered.


> As far as amplification, because of the low power usage the horns require, would it be better to run two separate amps, a low wattage unit to drive the horns and a higher wattage unit to run the rest of the system or can they all be run off of one amp? Maybe a four or five channel amp?


that is kinda up to you. the horn driver itself is 8ohm, so you will get 1/2 the wattage out of a channel than a 4ohm 8". so if you use a 100Wx4 amplifier, you will get 100W to the 8" and 50w to the horn. adjust the gains a bit and you can get it matched up.


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Excellent!!

Thanks so much!

So just to check myself here...I'm gonna mount the horns underneath the dash so that the horn mouths are just below the lower edge of the dash firing directly at the user and as far back and to the right/left as I can? 

I'm assuming the "ears" that are on the horn are for mounting? I guess I can make up some brackets to mount them. 

If someone can please give me the L/W/H that would be pretty much answer my horn placement questions!!

Thanks again!!

John


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

novanutcase said:


> Excellent!!
> 
> Thanks so much!
> 
> ...


that is pretty much it.

the ear are for mounting yes. I think they still include some steel straping to use for mounting them. mine came with some anyway. (not that you dont have anything lying around to fab stuff, lol) the bodys themselves are made from urethane. so predrill the holes in the "ears" and use more than 1 screw to attach your mouting brackets. I used 3 screws per bracket and it holds nicely.


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Posted wrong dimensions earlier. See Eric Stevens post below for correct dimensions!!

John


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

novanutcase said:


> Just an FYI in case someone needs the dimension info:
> 
> Image Dynamics CDPRO F - 32" x 3" x 9"
> Image Dynamics CDPRO MH - 32 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 5"
> ...


John,

Took the time to go through the build.  One nice ride.

Dimensions are:
Full size horns are 23.5 wide with the mounting flanges and can be trimmed to as small as 12.00" if necessary and the mouth opening is 15". the height at the mouth 2.75" and the depth is just under 9.0" 

MH horns are 23.5 wide with the mouting flanges and can be trimmed to just under 10" and the mouth opening is 10" wide. Height at the mouth is 2.25" and the depth is under 5"

Eric


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

novanutcase said:


> I assume MH means mini horn. I was aware that there are larger horn bodies but are you saying that your first choice would be to go with a larger horn body rather than the minis, and if so, why? What would be the best positioning under dash? Firing at the passengers shins or angled in between the seats?
> 
> The horn mouths are mounted perpendicular to the listeners, you can mount them with a slight tow in towards the center but its generally not necessary as the dispersion of the horn was desinged to have the mouths mounted straight across the car. Position them just below the bottom of the dash with the top of the horn touching the bottom of the dash. Fire the horn parallel to the floor of the car no upward angle is necessary.
> 
> ...


John I am in the LA area in San Gabriel. I would be glad to come help you with placement and answer any and all of your questions if you wold like. this way I can actually point things out to you and bring some horn bodies for test fitting if you like.

Eric


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> John,
> 
> Took the time to go through the build.  One nice ride.
> 
> ...


Thanks Eric!

LOL! I got the specs from Julian over at Woofers Etc. so I have no idea why the discrepancy in dimensions but then again, more than likely, it was me and not him that got it wrong!

Those specs certainly make all the difference in terms of mounting!

Looks like the fulls are what I'm gonna go with since I have the room.

Now I gotta figure out what mid bass speakers would be the best choice for the horns. Thinking that maybe a set of Morel MW-266 8" Mids will do the trick with an ARC Audio Black 10 sub in an enclosure in back. No rear fills. Since the car will be a 2 seater I want to concentrate on getting the best front soundstage I can within the user parameters that I'm looking for.

As always, opinions and/or suggestions are always welcome!

John


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Very nice, indeed. FWIW, many of us consider Eric Stevens to be THE go to person for horn info. He just offered to help you set up your car IN PERSON. Be all over that offer! I think I just started to drool over this build (wipes chin) :laugh:.


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> John I am in the LA area in San Gabriel. I would be glad to come help you with placement and answer any and all of your questions if you wold like. this way I can actually point things out to you and bring some horn bodies for test fitting if you like.
> 
> Eric


That would be AWESOME!! 

Only problem is the car is in Bakersfield. PM me and we can arrange something that would be beneficial to us both!!

Thanks Again!!

John


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> John I am in the LA area in San Gabriel. I would be glad to come help you with placement and answer any and all of your questions if you wold like. this way I can actually point things out to you and bring some horn bodies for test fitting if you like.
> 
> Eric


and this is why he is the best in the industry. not many would be this helpfull to the common schmoe buying his product.


and yes, jump on it.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

novanutcase said:


> So far the component list is going to be the horns in front with some 8" mid bass in the kicks and a 10" sub in between the tubs. I'm still not sure whether or not it would be a good idea to run a set of rear fills. H/U will probably be an Alpine IDA-X305S. Still trying to figure out what would be the best choice for a processor.
> 
> Suggestions are welcome!!
> 
> John


John,

A suggestion is to get a head unit that does all the processing in one piece. Not sure what the Alpine model would be but the P99Rs from Pioneer is quite good. 

For an 8" midbass driver look for a high efficiency driver 91 to 92dB 1W/1M or more, and make sure its not a 2.83 volt rating unless its a 8 ohm driver. 4 ohm driver would be better. 

Only use rear fill if you personally like a surround sound effect rather than a sounds stage out in front of you in the windshield area. I personally dont use rear fill.

Eric


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> John,
> 
> A suggestion is to get a head unit that does all the processing in one piece. Not sure what the Alpine model would be but the P99Rs from Pioneer is quite good.
> 
> ...


Once again your post is invaluable to this newb!

After having looked at the Pioneer site the deck you mentioned looks like it pretty much will replace a processor since it has it already built in. Is this correct? 

I'm trying to figure out whether it would be better to go with a lower cost head and processor or go with the all in one Pioneer. It would seem that if going with the Pioneer will do away with the processor it would be the choice to make since buying an H/U and processor separately would be around the same cost along with saving me some room.

John


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

novanutcase said:


> Once again your post is invaluable to this newb!
> 
> After having looked at the Pioneer site the deck you mentioned looks like it pretty much will replace a processor since it has it already built in. Is this correct?
> 
> ...


The simplicity of it all being on one unit is a great reason. It is easy to use as well. Also the unit uses some high quality DAC's making it have good SQ.

For your system and project I recommend the Pioneer over separate HU and Processor.

Eric


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## novanutcase (Oct 7, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> The simplicity of it all being on one unit is a great reason. It is easy to use as well. Also the unit uses some high quality DAC's making it have good SQ.
> 
> For your system and project I recommend the Pioneer over separate HU and Processor.
> 
> Eric


Sounds like Crutchfield is gonna get a call from me in the near future unless you have another source that would be better to get it from.

When we get together I'd like to talk about some of the other components that we will need to complete the setup so that I have a complete list of everything I'll need in respects to placement within the cabin and working on the sonic purity, i.e. sound dampening, etc.

One of the things that worries me though is the fact that the car is as old as it is. I know that todays cars are WAY more efficient in terms of sound proofing so we will need to figure out the best way to minimize that.

Knowing that I have one of the best in the biz certainly eases my mind!! I can't thank you enough for the generous offer you've made me.:thumbsup:

John


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## Complacent_One (Jul 2, 2009)

My vote on the Midbass/Midrange drivers would be a set of JBL 2118H's. I just sold a set about a month ago, but they pop up on here all the time. The consensus is that they compliment the ID horns very well...

The build is gorgeous!! Really makes me want to rent a trailer and go pick up my buddies 65 Malibu SS...unfortunately it would take me years to put together to funding to build it like yours!!


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

i can vouch for the 99rs as an excellent unit to use with horns i run the jap version the 01. and i use Eric's horns in my car..


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