# Well someone's gonna have fun



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Friend of mine decided he wanted to get serious about his stereo after hearing mine lol!










While I'm not excited about him aiming for a bigger trophy than me, I am excited to get my hands on the tuning device - a Helix with the Director and their calibrated mic. 

Eager to watch this thing throughout the install and then get my mitts on it. Can't wait.


----------



## Bmxnick101 (Dec 1, 2009)

Nice! Looks like you need to step up your game. Lol


----------



## .69077 (Aug 24, 2013)

Baller, jelly though. Looks like some great gear


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Trying to get the mid/tweet placement somewhere in between best imaging and physically possible within the realm of reason. This is all going in a big Dodge truck. Initial plan was to hope to get them in the OEM dash locations, but I don't think that's going to be possible without pulling the windshield to trim the dash up there to make things work. Next option is pillars. Trying to place them for the best off axis response this way, but there's a big oh **** handle on the pillars which makes things more complicated.


----------



## Bmxnick101 (Dec 1, 2009)

The joys of our hobby.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

What year truck?? On my 2005, the front dash cover pops right off leaving EASY access to the oem speaker locations. One could easily pop an L4 in each corner and even an L3 in the center dash location with only a little trimmin and maybe a baffle.
I used a right angle air grinder with a 4" cut off blade to do the trimming…worked great. Now getting those L8 into the door is another matter..I ditched the Dyn 170 I was planning on using in favor of ID XS69 on a 3/4" HDPE baffle for the stock door location in order to keep from hacking up the door, which is very stiff already.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Not sure the year. There are little covers for the speakers in the corners. 

Google image search results show this image which appears to be like his. 










The L3 would fit. But nooooo, he wanted L4s because they're bigger than mine lol!


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Thats a later model then my 2005, but I'll bet that you could still trim that inside panel back using the method that I did above…but in fact, it looks like if you simply made a 1/2" thick custom baffle from Corian or black HDPE or MDF painted to match, that took the place of the panel cover you would get the speaker up even closer to the windshield, as well as obviate the need to even to make a larger hole in that lower panel.aJust my .02.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

He just told me its a 2011 ram 2500 longhorn laramie


----------



## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

benny z said:


> Not sure the year. There are little covers for the speakers in the corners.
> 
> Google image search results show this image which appears to be like his.
> 
> ...


A little bit of trimming with a body saw will drop a 4" in there no problem.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Yeh. The problem is fitting a body saw in there to do the trimming, and access to build a new proper baffle, with the windshield in. 

Might pull the windshield.


----------



## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

benny z said:


> Friend of mine decided he wanted to get serious about his stereo after hearing mine lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now thats some sweet gear, glad to see he went with Hybrid Audio!!


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have some of those speakers (all of them)...curious as to what you think about them.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I have some of those speakers (all of them)...curious as to what you think about them.


i've been using hybrid audio drivers for the past 9 years in my cars, my wife's cars, and other relatives'/friends' cars.

i already have a pretty good idea of what i think of them. 

however, i have never used the L4SE driver - so that will be new. Will definitely let you know my thoughts as it comes together.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Curious about the 4 and the tweeters.

I have been flip flopping on using my L3Pros or the my L4SEs.

The 8s I am told are pretty slick.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Cool cool. Yeah will let you know. I usually use the 3. Currently I'm using the L3SE tweeterless. Before that I was using L6SE + L1 Pro RR. I do like the tweeters. Just went a different direction with mine for a change up. The 3 Pro dome is also very nice. 

Here's how the 4 "fits" in the oem location. 



















Got permission to pull the windshield to do the necessary cutting/baffle build/finishing work - so most likely going to proceed with that approach. It's really the only way to make them fit. 

Tweeters will go out to the sail panels. Probably just play them from like 10k and up - will have to experiment when tuning.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> Tweeters will go out to the sail panels. ....


Nooo not sails please. Cant you cut a bit and mout the tweets right next to the mid? I'd much rather have a 3" mid and tweet in the dash corners. The 4" will play down to 300 vs ~ 500 for the 3", not much real gain as there are no height cues at these frequencies....


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I will play with it. They are finishing up the amp and processor install today. Line of thinking is that I hope to eek out some more width than having everything in the dash corners. 

My 3se are crossed at 315. 

He wanted a bit more volume which is why he wanted to go with the 4. Don't ask... Lol


----------



## BlkRamRt (Nov 27, 2013)

Nice equipment. I am sure you can fit a dremel in there so you don't have to remove the windshield.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Maybe. Maaaayyybee. But then there's building a proper baffle and finishing work. All of that would be so much easier/better with the windshield out.


----------



## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

What subs will be used?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

there's a single 10" jl sumthin sumthin under the rear passenger's side seat. it's a preformed jl box for the truck...i *think*. he's had the sub in the truck for a while. said something about upgrading it next if needed (yas).


----------



## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

Ben Zimmerman, you staying out of trouble?


----------



## BlkRamRt (Nov 27, 2013)

Is he going to use an after market HU or keeping the factory one?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

BlackHHR said:


> Ben Zimmerman, you staying out of trouble?



Hey, I could have told everyone he's using the new LE Micro Sub...


----------



## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

You must wait unto we finished testing the micro subs before you let the cat out of the bag Benny !!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

there's a reason they weren't pictured. 

BlkRamRt - he's using an alpine double-din unit. not sure what it is. he had that installed as part of the previous system also.

the last system was 6.5" imagine sets in all 4 doors plus the jl sub off the 6-channel small arc amp. he had that set re-installed into his wife's car for this upgrade.


----------



## troutspinner (Nov 8, 2013)

cha-freaking-ching! Someone isn't messing around. Some nice stuff there!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

No time wasted. Will get to experiment with placement tomorrow via ear/minor tuning.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Are those amps mounted on rails or a plywood rack or directly to the back wall??


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

They are mounted to wooden pieces which are hidden/covered under the second skin matting.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Doing some playing. 





































Think this is how they are gonna end up. Also tried the mid here and tweeters in sails. The width gets better but listening position to stage gets closer. Not a fan. They'll both go up on the dash together. Possibly angled in about 20* if it's feasible.


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^. Good deal, and excellent work.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> Doing some playing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good choice on location .


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

benny z said:


> They are mounted to wooden pieces which are hidden/covered under the second skin matting.


Thanks.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

some thoughts here on the processor. i have not read the manual yet as i didn't plan to be tuning the truck yet. that said, all i did was fire it up to set phase, basic crossover points, and fix the biggest problems in the eq to make them listenable towel-installed for positioning testing. i plan to read the published instruction article (which looks pretty comprehensive) before the install is finished and the real tuning begins.

this is my first time using the helix. i am a long time zapco dc reference user. i have also tuned with the arc ps-8, pioneer p99, alpine h800, and ppi dsp-88r processors.

like the zapco and ppi user interfaces, everything is on one main screen which i really like. the resolution and options for setting phase/time correction is great. one thing i found immediately annoying is that you can't type in numbers for anything. you have to use the arrows/sliders to set crossover points, levels, etc.

the rta mic connection is great. the mic comes with a phantom power supply unit and connects right to your laptop. you bring up the rta screen and it helps you adjust volume. it displays a target eq curve overlaid with the rta reading. however, it seems to take readings in 20-second increments only. not sure what it is doing...i'm assuming it's taking a reading for 20 seconds and then displaying an average...? need to read the manual. i did not really explore the options, so maybe this can be changed. i'd like to see a continuous rta readout that displays continuously while i make adjustments. maybe it does that also - again i need to rtfm.


----------



## win1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Cool I'm in for finished dash install need some help deals for my truck


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Good choice on placement. Shouldn't stick out nearly as bad as pillar/dash pods. I also drive a 2011 Ram. For what it's worth I have my 2.5" Ram 2's in stock locations with tweets corner loaded on top of the factory grills on axis. Tweet cups are touching the glass, pillars, and dash. My staging is crazy wide and someone even said "almost too wide" and he drives a Tundra so is used to a wide stage. I think the pillars are acting as waveguides which in turns slings the sound out to the side windows for some trickery to throw it even further out to the side mirrors.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Good choice on placement. Shouldn't stick out nearly as bad as pillar/dash pods. I also drive a 2011 Ram. For what it's worth I have my 2.5" Ram 2's in stock locations with tweets corner loaded on top of the factory grills on axis. Tweet cups are touching the glass, pillars, and dash. My staging is crazy wide and someone even said "almost too wide" and he drives a Tundra so is used to a wide stage. I think the pillars are acting as waveguides which in turns slings the sound out to the side windows for some trickery to throw it even further out to the side mirrors.


Nice! Do you have any pics? It's not too late to try a similar position with the tweeters as they are working on the doors next.

I am *hoping* that a slight tilt of the drivers inward will help catch some off axis response off the side windows for a similar width trick as what it sounds like you have.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

benny z said:


> Yeh. The problem is fitting a body saw in there to do the trimming, and access to build a new proper baffle, with the windshield in.
> 
> Might pull the windshield.



Can't you simply use a dremel? They also have the extension tube piece so you can really get into tight spaces to trim.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

benny z said:


> i've been using hybrid audio drivers for the past 9 years in my cars, my wife's cars, and other relatives'/friends' cars.
> 
> i already have a pretty good idea of what i think of them.
> 
> however, i have never used the L4SE driver - so that will be new. Will definitely let you know my thoughts as it comes together.


I've not used the L4SE, but I have used the L4. If it's as good or better, you'll be VERY pleased.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Don't have any pics, but picture an angle cup mounted on top of the factory grill in the corners and tweet swiveled in the cup to aim them. A tiny portion of the opening is covered by the tweeter mount but not enough to matter. Used double sided tape to mount the cups to the grills. I don't get too hung up on "pretty" as long as it's presentable and gets the job done like I want it.

EDIT: The capn has been in my truck. Nothing has changed except the tuning and it's a completely different animal now that I put what Linda taught me into practice.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Oh, those "OH F**K" handles are the spawn of satan. The passenger side handle isn't a problem but you have to tune around the drivers side handle. Wish I could remove the drivers side handle. I could but it wouldn't be pretty! Need some step bars too for my short legged (27" inseam) butt and the rare occasion my mom rides in it I cringe thinking she's gonna rip the passenger side pillar off from pulling on it so hard getting in.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

benny z said:


> Cool cool. Yeah will let you know. I usually use the 3. Currently I'm using the L3SE tweeterless. Before that I was using L6SE + L1 Pro RR. I do like the tweeters. Just went a different direction with mine for a change up. The 3 Pro dome is also very nice.
> 
> Here's how the 4 "fits" in the oem location.
> 
> ...



It's either that or go with the flangeless. It looks like a very tight squeeze there. Might even consider the L3se instead. Dash cutting and pulling windshields is a pain.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i hear you. the 3se would be better in every sense in my most honest opinion.

the owner isn't hearing it, though. he demands the 4s. 

i used a local glass shop to pull my windshield to do my dash install - they will be using the same place to do the glass pull/reinstall. it cost me $160 i believe and was well worth it.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

That actually sounds pretty reasonable for what's involved.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Not much to update picture-wise. The guys wrapped up treating the doors both inside skin and outer metal, plus began a fiberglass project for mounting the L8SEs.

This is "Broadfield", btw, for those of you in the Nissan world. Also does business as Broadfield Customs for custom aftermarket gauge/electronics pods. 










Saturday the windshield came out without breaking - always a risk. $150 to take it out and come back to put it in when it's finished. 










I guess next up is finding a ladder to work on the dash    .


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

And now we see how much easier this just got. Lol!


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Sweet! A little trimming and it fit in there ok. How are you securing it?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> Sweet! A little trimming and it fit in there ok. How are you securing it?



The tweeter has a hole cut for it to slip down into it. It was secured with matting. The L3 is held in with the two screws shown. It is solid as hell. One of the screws is actually the side dash mounting screw. Ccf was used to seal the flange and then more matting was used to seal up the gaps. 










You can see the mounting bracket for the dash where one of the speaker screws goes through. 










Other side. 










Now Toby's working on a grill solution and finishing the mounting baffles for the 8s.


----------



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

benny z said:


> The tweeter has a hole cut for it to slip down into it. It was secured with matting. The L3 is held in with the two screws shown. It is solid as hell. One of the screws is actually the side dash mounting screw. Ccf was used to seal the flange and then more matting was used to seal up the gaps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't tell exactly, but I am will to bet that the dash is made from PP. It might be in your interest to get some PP stock and do some plastic welding. For something as small as that, a soldering iron would do the trick as long as you have heat control. You wouldn't need a fancy plastic welder and nitrogen tank as long as you keep things under control.


----------



## Wouldrow Villesun (Dec 11, 2015)

Holy crap I've never seen so much


----------



## Silvercoat (Dec 5, 2013)

benny z said:


> Friend of mine decided he wanted to get serious about his stereo after hearing mine lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am interested to see how this turn out. I like seeing new truck installs because I know they have install/equipment space considerations and for a build like this I am really looking to see how it all comes together.

As far as the bigger trophy, such is the life of car audio. You build your "dream system" then hear something nicer and think to yourself "Man I can't believe how much better that sounds" then you improve. It is awesome though to prove to your friends how spending and designing the correct ways yields proper results.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Doors are coming along nicely. I didn't take pics but there are over 40 sheets of second skin deadener per door between the outer skin, inner skin, and back of the inside panel. Closed cell foam also used in key areas. The baffle for the speaker mounts through the door card and is attached to the inner door skin panel. They are aimed slightly up and in.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Aaaand dash. Note the glass is back in


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Other side ready for paint then wrap.


----------



## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Nicely understated!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

not saying it doesn't look good, but why such a high build up on the grille?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Not sure. Haven't been back to look at it/talk to the installer. He just sent me these pics today. Will talk to him tomorrow. He says it'll be ready for tuning by EOD. Taking Wednesday off and am gonna go give it a whirl.

I'm gonna guess it was to give them enough strength to stretch...


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm curious - are you worried about the waves being blocked/tunneled up through the grills?


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Closer to the windshield is not necessarily a bad thing especially for the tweeter as it raises (ie minimizes) the frequencies that can cause problems through reflections.

At least that is what PB has said repeatedly in many of his dash mounting experiments


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Been tuning this thing today. What a blast! Love the helix. Love love love it. It is coming together very nicely. 

I made a quick iPhone video for sqnut and high resolution audio. 

https://youtu.be/l3gLiXLhTYc


----------



## win1 (Sep 27, 2008)

I think I might have missed it but what subs are you running sir and where are they located thanks


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

At the moment the sub's out. Gonna add his JL 10" stealthbox back in for now. He's teetering on sub options going forward. Most likely a single 12" unless he decides to give up some bed space for dual 15s lol.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> Been tuning this thing today. What a blast! Love the helix. Love love love it. It is coming together very nicely.
> 
> I made a quick iPhone video for sqnut and high resolution audio.
> 
> https://youtu.be/l3gLiXLhTYc


Yaaayyy!! Tusk!! Are you using the 2015 remastered disk? Even I would love to use the Helix dsp for tuning. A couple of quick questions:

1. How did you like tweaking the eq at 0.1 db resolution?

2. Did you get around to using the phase angle on each driver? If so what did that do in terms of how it sounds and images vs plain ole TA?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

It's the hits disc, original version I believe. He just happened to have this cd in the player. Lol! Coincidence or fate - one or the other. 

So honestly I used the "set eq" function. They have you move the mic in a U shape around your face from ear to ear - it averages the reading and then shows the reading overlaid on top of the target curve. It then shows you the required +/- adjustment for each band to match the target curve and let's you hit a single button to apply the changes all at once. I did this 4 times per side and it got better each time. I honestly felt like I was cheating - it makes it so easy a child could do it. Of course this gets you to a baseline where you can further tweak by ear - but honestly I was really happy with the results out of the box - and I'm rather picky.

The phase angle control I don't know how to use, frankly - so I didn't. I stuck with the time alignment in ms. I did the typical tape measurements and plugged them into Erin's tool, then isolated driver pairs and fine tuned by ear with them playing wider bandwidth than they are set to play (gives me more range to listen, if that makes sense). I believe I have everything in sync and the image is smack dab center, visually appearing above the factory center channel speaker, which makes you believe it is playing what you are hearing when playing mono content. 

Next time I get to play with it I will further tweak the eq by ear with the band isolated pink noise tracks. But honestly I was so happy with it after using the built in RTA/set eq function that I spent a lot more time listening to music/enjoying the system than I did tinkering. This is by far the best "auto tune" result I've heard from any device. 

Any suggestions/tips for how to begin playing with the phase angle?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> Any suggestions/tips for how to begin playing with the phase angle?


Phase angle calculation time delay frequency calculate phase lag time shift between voltage difference time of arrival ITD oscilloscope measure two signals formula angle current voltage phi phase shift time difference - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Scroll down to the calculator and input Xover frequency and delay on each driver to get the phase angle. Let's say you're crossing sub and mid bass at 60 with 0 m/s delay on the sub, 2.25 m/s on the near mid bass and 1.25 m/s on the far MB. Using the calculator the phase angles would be

Sub: 0 deg
Near MB: 49 deg
Far MB: 27 deg

Next pick the MB to mid range xover and do the mid range and then the tweets. Would really appreciate if after you've done this you can come back with your opinion on how it sounds and images.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Sweet! Yeah I will give it a go. Probably next week now with it officially being Christmas Eve here.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Merry Christmas and enjoy the holidays with the family.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Phase angle calculation time delay frequency calculate phase lag time shift between voltage difference time of arrival ITD oscilloscope measure two signals formula angle current voltage phi phase shift time difference - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
> 
> Scroll down to the calculator and input Xover frequency and delay on each driver to get the phase angle. Let's say you're crossing sub and mid bass at 60 with 0 m/s delay on the sub, 2.25 m/s on the near mid bass and 1.25 m/s on the far MB. Using the calculator the phase angles would be
> 
> ...




Holy Moly. I'm an electrician by trade, and I am suppose to use formulas all the time. But that link to determine phase angle verses time alignment makes my head spin. You really do know your stuff.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> It's the hits disc, original version I believe. He just happened to have this cd in the player. Lol! Coincidence or fate - one or the other.
> 
> So honestly I used the "set eq" function. They have you move the mic in a U shape around your face from ear to ear - it averages the reading and then shows the reading overlaid on top of the target curve. It then shows you the required +/- adjustment for each band to match the target curve and let's you hit a single button to apply the changes all at once. I did this 4 times per side and it got better each time. I honestly felt like I was cheating - it makes it so easy a child could do it. Of course this gets you to a baseline where you can further tweak by ear - but honestly I was really happy with the results out of the box - and I'm rather picky.
> 
> ...



I'm glad that you achieved some music nirvana and enjoyed listening as opposed to tinkering.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Long time no update. The holidays came and went, my friend needed his truck back, and the shop just got it back this morning to finish. In the meantime my friend decided he couldn't have anything less than a 15" HAT C15 Clarus sub. So! I think this is pretty self explanatory.


----------



## #1BigMike (Aug 17, 2014)

LOL 

:laugh:AWESOME:laugh:


----------



## adriancp (Feb 12, 2012)

I have a Ram, Oh dear lord this is the last thing I needed to see ! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i wish he had said the floor was fair game originally. those L8s would have gone in the floor, too, most likely!


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Did you get to play with the phase angles?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

No, not yet. I haven't spent any more time tuning yet. Once it's done I will tune again and play with the phase angle.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Some more pics of where this is going...


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Bit more progress here, now formed and a plan shaping up to protect the rear:


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

This wooden frame was molded in so that the installer has a flat surface to experiment mounting different protection devices to. 



















She is now installed with the back completely open for base testing (base/bass, get it?).



















...and it's alive!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Blade vent covers showed up...


----------



## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Where's this build being done at? Not too many guys have a SawStop in their garage at home.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Mobile Audio Plus here in Bloomington, IL. 

More pics...


----------



## crispin (May 23, 2011)

The subwoofer box does not make sense to me.

Why is that bathroom fan looking cover being used?

What are "protection devices"?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

The cover is being used to help protect the woofer from water splashes. It is still open for IB operation, yet somewhat protected by the vents.


----------



## crispin (May 23, 2011)

benny z said:


> The cover is being used to help protect the woofer from water splashes. It is still open for IB operation, yet somewhat protected by the vents.


Oh I see, it is open to the outside.


Hmmm, interested to find out how that is going to sound.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Yes, back side is open to the world.

I did get to listen to it the other day before the vent covers went on and I must say it is impressive. Clean, effortless, deeeeeep, gut punching, and it still just disappears with the music - exactly as it should. 

I was excited to hear it because I am also going to be using this same 15" sub installed infinite baffle in my car. Very happy with what I heard.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Quick finished pic of the doors.










They tell me it's all done and ready for tuning. Gonna go over later this afternoon and play. 

sqnut - this time I will plug in the phase angle numbers.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

View from inside...


----------



## audiovibe (Nov 16, 2007)

Ben that is an awesome build!

I'm gonna have to hear it!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

If you can come to Bloomington tomorrow or Thursday I will be finishing up the tune. It's at Mobile Audio Plus if you'd like to swing by. Can check out the changes to my car if you'd like, too.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

benny z said:


> sqnut - this time I will plug in the phase angle numbers.


Yaay, I will finally get some feedback on what that thing does....


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Yaay, I will finally get some feedback on what that thing does....



So I was looking at this again...




sqnut said:


> Phase angle calculation time delay frequency calculate phase lag time shift between voltage difference time of arrival ITD oscilloscope measure two signals formula angle current voltage phi phase shift time difference - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm curious on which crossover point to use for calculating the drivers that are filtered on both ends? 

Say the midranges are 250hz to 5600hz. Am I plugging in the 250hz number or the 5600hz number to get the phase angle?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

found the answer in the helix documentation. phase angle is for the high pass filter side except for the sub channels (if you are using it there).


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Ah good, yeah lets say the sub and mid bass were at 50, so you'd do the MB at 50hz, the midrange at 250 hz and the tweets at 5600......however since old habits die hard..... plug in the values and take a listen. Then remove the phase angles and listen, figure out what exactly is being improved. My guess is it will be overall cohesion. Now go back to the values and and tweak those, moving L&R together. 

Do two sets of drivers at a time, so let's say the MB and mid. Now play with phase angles on the MB in min steps going forward from org value and listen for that particular characteristic that got better by using phase angles. Is that getting better, worse, or just different? 

If it's different play around a bit to see if it gets better, else just go back to org value. If it has gotten worse, go back to org value and move backwards this time, if it's better keep going till it starts to fall apart, then back up a bit. Find the best setting for the MB then do the *[edit]* mid and tweet while playing with phase angles on the mid. Next play all drivers and tweak the tweets. *[edit]* 

If you find that the ideal numbers are close to but slightly different to the calculated numbers, then try the above for L/R also one set of drivers at a time, basically tweak it like you would with TA.

Sorry about the long winded post, but I just got very excited thinking about it and tuning instincts took over. .


----------



## audiovibe (Nov 16, 2007)

benny z said:


> If you can come to Bloomington tomorrow or Thursday I will be finishing up the tune. It's at Mobile Audio Plus if you'd like to swing by. Can check out the changes to my car if you'd like, too.


I wish I could, Sadly I'm down in AR for work this week :mean:

Will you be dragging him to Bobs meet in April?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Sorry about the long winded post, but I just got very excited thinking about it and tuning instincts took over. .


um...yeah... too long/didn't read. 

j/k

started a new tune from scratch. much much much happier with it now.

after getting time alignment set i did use the numbers to calculate and plug in the phase angle. first - the resolution the helix gives you isn't fine enough to be as accurate as i'd like. *but* it definitely did make a difference. i went with the closest available numbers and then tweaked the delay ever so slightly again by ear and the result this way is better than time alignment alone. i went back and forth a few times and there definitely is more cohesion. sweet.

overall curve is very pleasing now and is a good match with the iasca reference/judge's headphones and my car. its focus is darn good...gonna do some more very minor left/right tweaking, but i'd roll this into the lanes as it sits.

the sub is soooo good. just playing it 47hz and down and it's amazing how well it blends and the effortless sub-bass pressure it pumps out. it's there - but it's not there...if that makes sense.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

audiovibe said:


> Will you be dragging him to Bobs meet in April?


gonna try!

there's at least a 50% chance this truck will be at the hybrid gp/iasca event at sonus in tennessee on feb 20th.


----------



## 12v Electronics (Jun 1, 2008)

Nice EQ curve!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Dude! Don't tell the secrets!


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I am super happy with the final tune! I think this is my best tune yet. I'm a bit pained that I like it better than my car lol. Hmmph - need to get to work on my own updates. 

I just had my iPhone but couldn't help but take a quick vid of Toby and another installer enjoying the end product right before my friend came to pick it up. 

I'll try to get some proper photos of everything now that it's finished. ...and maybe a better video 

http://youtu.be/ZAshGUqTW4w


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I know the feeling when you tune a car and it comes out better than your car.... though that hasn't happened in the last couple of years.

Glad the phase angle thingy worked out, I'm definitely getting the Helix for my new car, as and when that happens this year.


----------



## 12v Electronics (Jun 1, 2008)

Toby seems to be tapping his feet. Must be good.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Update...

The dash grills have been redone. They're currently redoing the midbass grills to match. This looks soooooo much better!


----------



## xOttox (Jan 25, 2015)

Way better looking.   

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Midbasses:


----------



## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Awesome build Benny

Couple questions for curiosity. Why modify and run the L8s in the doors and not vented from the kicks? Also can you explain or direct where to locate the information as to what Venting the sub to the outside really does to the sound and how it affects the sub performance? Maybe I missed it but what amps was he going to run and where?


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Juan-

The amps are Arc SE's located behind the rear seats. Ben had said that he would have preferred the kicks, but the owner didn't say that cutting the floor was a "go" until after they were done in doors and it was time for the sub. The sub is a 15" Hybrid Audio Clarus which is designed for infinite baffle use, so for this application, they needed to vent it to the exterior. The vent simply allows the sub to see 'infinite' airspace so there is no additional acoustic spring (like the pressure of a sealed box provides) outside of the motor and soft parts of the sub to control cone movement.



Nice updates with the grills Ben, they look way better.


----------



## adrianp89 (Oct 14, 2007)

Awesome build... I would never think of cutting into my RAM but I appreciate the work done here.


----------



## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification Steve. I still like the way they did the C15 and vented it to the environment. Does doing this also help provide more output from the sub?

Awesome craftsmanship Benny.


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

thanks for the follow-up, steve!

craftsmanship credit goes to my local audio shop - mobile audio plus, here in bloomington, illinois.

this truck will be competing in our SQOLOGY competition here tomorrow morning.


----------



## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

12v Electronics said:


> Nice EQ curve!


LOL!
Very cool build, glad I stumbled on it.
The new grills are wayyyy better!
It's cool to see someone else cut into their perfectly good car as well bc I just cut a 15" hole into my beemer to go IB 
Thanks for sharing this install!


----------



## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Benny, can you clarify which MR you are using? I was confused whether it was the L3 or the L4? How did you workout the reflections off the dash? And what xover points are you using for the system? Also, can you give some detail about how those 8s were built-up and secured? Thanks.

This was an awesome build and has me motivated.


----------



## TomT (May 19, 2005)

I love this install (I have a 2015 Ram) and am taking notes on the dash especially. I have the Hertz 3" there now (tweets in the sails) but my future plan is for Dyn Esotar mids and MD130 tweeters. 

This install gives me hope of doing that without needing huge, ugly pods that scream "Steal Me".

Not too sure about the hole in the floor though. I use my truck off road a lot and that fan baffle would not survive the crap that gets thrown around while running fast in the desert.

Since this is an older thread, has your friend had any issues with the winter weather related to the IB sub?


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Hey guys... the dash midranges are L4SE... I think the crossovers are at 250hz, if I remember correctly. Been a while since I tuned this one. Dash reflections are meh...I just tune around it. Sometimes all that extra reflection presents a more lively sound. It works/I don't worry about it too much. The primary reflection is the windshield, which is basically direct reflected sound as the primary sound heard. The only pics I have of the door pods are posted here. I believe the door pods are secured via the driver mounting screws, but I'll have to confirm. 

He doesn't daily this truck. I checked in with him this winter to see how it was doing and he said it's spotless, but noted it doesn't get driven often.


----------



## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

OK, the phase angle calculator is cool but I got some weird results on the tweeters. 

Using the calculator my 
L Midbass is HP at 77 HZ and delayed 1.27ms. the result is 35 degrees
R Midbass is HP at 77HZ and not delayed so 0 degrees
L Tweet HP at 2570 and delayed 1.38ms. The calculator gives 1277 degrees!??
R Tweet is HP at 2570 and delayed .73ms. The calculator gives 675 degrees!??

Surely Im doing something wrong


----------

