# Audiofrog Announces New Multi-Channel Platform



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

This should be very interesting



> Multiseat Stereo™ provides precise audio staging for every seat; will debut at KnowledgeFest
> 
> SUN VALLEY, CALIF., August 3, 2016 (MEDIAWIRE) – Audiofrog announced it will debut the first multichannel audio processing platform developed and optimized specifically for the automotive aftermarket. Multiseat Stereo™ transforms the listening experience for every passenger in the vehicle, providing immersive sound in every seat. The introduction will take place at the annual KnowledgeFest trade show and conference, August 20-22 at the Hilton Anatole in Dallas.
> Audiofrog’s Multiseat Stereo is made possible through a collaboration with PerfectSurround, maker of an award-winning multichannel upmixing process in use by top film, broadcast and recording studios in over 50 countries. PerfectSurround translates simple stereo into 5- or 7-channel audio with no phase artifacts, enabling sound engineers to create the same immersive and believable audio experience for every seat in a theater. Audiofrog has contributed extensive automotive system design and tuning expertise to incorporate additional features and controls that adapt the studio technology to the automotive environment.
> ...



Link to original article. Audiofrog Gives Driver and Passengers an Audiophile Experience with New Multichannel Platform


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Subscribed


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## Larry Chijner (Jun 6, 2016)

Excellent...............


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Interesting...


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

> The company plans to introduce digital signal processors with Multiseat Stereo and complementary amplifiers that also include DSP in 2017.


Exciting!!epper:


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

This sounds very cool... 

It mentions that it's going to be just a DSP, with complimentary amplifiers (assume separate components).
I'd much prefer this, versus the DSP and amplifier all integrated into one unit (like in Andy's demo vehicle).

I can see a certain Audi with this Audiofrog DSP, controlling 13 channels of Zapco amplification...


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Audiofrog Debuts Multiseat Stereo | ceoutlook.com


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

jimmydee said:


> It mentions that it's going to be just a DSP, with complimentary amplifiers.
> I'd much prefer this, versus the DSP and amplifier all integrated into one unit (like in Andy's demo vehicle).


Funny thing is that I would be happy with an all in one integrated unit, the only caveat being that it needs enough power for a 3 way front + 1 or 2 subs. The thought of getting rid of 4 boxes (3 x amps + DSP) in my trunk and having just one is very appealing, less wiring, less trying to hide it all away (stealth install) etc. I would take the box in Andy's demo vehicle in a heartbeat.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

naiku said:


> Funny thing is that I would be happy with an all in one integrated unit, the only caveat being that it needs enough power for a 3 way front + 1 or 2 subs. The thought of getting rid of 4 boxes (3 x amps + DSP) in my trunk and having just one is very appealing, less wiring, less trying to hide it all away (stealth install) etc. I would take the box in Andy's demo vehicle in a heartbeat.


One complete (stealth) unit definitely has it advantages... my main concern is that; "what if something goes wrong?" ie. what if you lose a channel on the amp. Then the entire thing needs to come out for repair.


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## ryanougrad (Jan 31, 2016)

I was climbing out of my car this morning and thinking I'm ready to change the MS-8 out for a new DSP. Now I sit down and read about this. I hope Andy weighs in on this thread with an anticipated release date.


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

I've listened to Andy's vehicle with this setup and it's kinda freaky hearing the imaging be correct in multiple seats...

Sub'd for future updates.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ryanougrad said:


> I was climbing out of my car this morning and thinking I'm ready to change the MS-8 out for a new DSP. Now I sit down and read about this. I hope Andy weighs in on this thread with an anticipated release date.


I don't think he will be. I don't think he's been on here since the whole password update crap

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

jimmydee said:


> One complete (stealth) unit definitely has it advantages... my main concern is that; "what if something goes wrong?" ie. what if you lose a channel on the amp. Then the entire thing needs to come out for repair.


True, but most things are fairly reliable these days. Yes, you would be completely out of music if your all in one unit needed repair, but hopefully repairs would be few and far between.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

This will be very nice!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> I don't think he will be. I don't think he's been on here since the whole password update crap
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


****!

Where's the ****ing door?

edit: people don't need to show me the door (its a joke), but I do want Andy back posting. Especially with this piece of info.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

fourthmeal said:


> ****!
> 
> Where's the ****ing door?


There's always facebook

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Sounds neat. But pricey and install heavy speaker wise for a lot of vehicles.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

indeed


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

In for info.


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## Socalstangman (Sep 20, 2011)

Nice. Audio Frog seems to make some really nice equipment. Is this a fairly new company? Im not sure where they came from.


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## frontman (May 1, 2013)

Sub'd...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

07maximan said:


> Nice. Audio Frog seems to make some really nice equipment. Is this a fairly new company? Im not sure where they came from.


somewhat new. been out for over a year now i think though


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

07maximan said:


> Nice. Audio Frog seems to make some really nice equipment. Is this a fairly new company? Im not sure where they came from.



Andy Wehmeyer of Harman Int'l quit to start a new company with some industry experts of his choice, but mostly its just him. HIGH-end stuff, focus on SQ and really nice, clean looks in a build. Too rich for my blood right now but there's no denying their quality.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

07maximan said:


> Nice. Audio Frog seems to make some really nice equipment. Is this a fairly new company? Im not sure where they came from.


Audio Frog's Andy Wehmeyer used to be one of the top guys at JBL and was responsible for most of their car audio line including the MS-8 processor. 

Gary Biggs is a former top IASCA competitor with multiple world championships. He is one of the top installers in the nation and was sponsored for years by Kicker. He later joined JBL as sort of a tech/install advisor (I don't know his exact job title while at JBL). 

These guys know high end car audio!!!!!!!!!!!

Startup Audiofrog Attracts Industry Vets | ceoutlook.com

Who is Audiofrog?

Q&A: Andy Wehmeyer of Audiofrog


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Just might be game-changer time.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Subscribed. Keep looking for ideas for my F150. Something like this is very interesting to me.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Looks like I'll be trading in my Fusion for a car with a factory center channel location. Time to start the research.


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## Socalstangman (Sep 20, 2011)

Cool, I never knew much about this company, other than it seems like they are high end.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm just so happy there's a well-run U.S. based company with solid products pushing the mobile SQ market forward. This kind of DSP is the future and I hope it spurs some competitive innovation.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Audiofrog Debuts Multiseat Stereo | ceoutlook.com


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

I don't doubt Andy has come up with something awesome but I don't know how it could be possible. He must have some magic voodoo in this box. Very intrigued indeed.
Hopefully he has several demo vehicles to tour the country so we may take a listen!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

juiceweazel said:


> I don't doubt Andy has come up with something awesome but I don't know how it could be possible. He must have some magic voodoo in this box. Very intrigued indeed.
> Hopefully he has several demo vehicles to tour the country so we may take a listen!



If you haven't seen it yet,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf5POoa_axI


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Subbed for interest.....


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## SQLnovice (Jul 22, 2014)

Saving up my $$$$


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

need new pictures and specs!!


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Penteo in a chip.

Perfect Surround | ADL's Penteo stereo-to-surround up mix plugin


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

As long as its under $1200, I'm sold. Probably still sold if it's over that depending on features. Auto eq like the ms8 would be awesome but a fully interactive dsp with all the bells and whistles on top that would be amazing. Was planning on asking him about future dsp plans at an event in a couple months but he beat me to it

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

fourthmeal said:


> If you haven't seen it yet,
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf5POoa_axI


Yes I saw the teaser video awhile back. I can't wait to see the explanation behind it when it does arrive. I hope it's not an all in 1 because, like others that would be ridiculously expensive & if it goes down you're screwed.
I still don't know how this is even possible though. I don't know how you can have the same experience in the drivers seat & the rear passenger seat. Didn't think that was remotely possible.


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## TwistdInfinity (Jun 7, 2015)

As he said, the processor extracts all the information from the music that would have been forming a centre image and transfers it to the centre speaker. 

There have been processors out there for ages that have done this to some degree or another, this is just another step in the evolution. With processor chips becoming more powerful than ever for the same size it's only a matter of time until someone gets it smack on target. 

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

That Penteo 7 or 5 looks like a software product. Is there a computer hiding in this new box or is there an ASIC version??


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

TwistdInfinity said:


> As he said, the processor extracts all the information from the music that would have been forming a centre image and transfers it to the centre speaker.
> 
> There have been processors out there for ages that have done this to some degree or another, this is just another step in the evolution. With processor chips becoming more powerful than ever for the same size it's only a matter of time until someone gets it smack on target.
> 
> Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk


That still doesn't explain how the driver & the rear passenger could have the same exact experience. I don't know how it could be possible.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

I'm sure it's only possible in a car like Andy's since he has 3way gb60, 25, and 10 in every door and I'd assume you'd have to do the same for this to work. As long as both front seats are the same that's fine and I really don't care about the rear seats but it would be a nice touch. I'm just curious how the distance from the center speaker to the rear seats affects the image. I can't even imagine how it does it but I know Andy will deliver it. I am planning to attend an event at a local shop in a couple of months that the owner said Andy as well as some other big names should be attending so I can't wait to experience his Mercedes and talk to him. 

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

juiceweazel said:


> That still doesn't explain how the driver & the rear passenger could have the same exact experience. I don't know how it could be possible.


IIRC, Andys demo car has a 3 way front + a 3 way rear plus surround speakers in the rear parcel shelf. He shared a description of the tuning process on the forum a few months ago. Describing that the rear-stage is tuned similar to the front with levels turned down to not pull the front stage back. This could be how he establishes a 'similar' listening experience in each seat. He included instructions on tuning the center and rears too.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Bluenote said:


> IIRC, Andys demo car has a 3 way front + a 3 way rear plus surround speakers in the rear parcel shelf. He shared a description of the tuning process on the forum a few months ago. Describing that the rear-stage is tuned similar to the front with levels turned down to not pull the front stage back. This could be how he establishes a 'similar' listening experience in each seat. He included instructions on tuning the center and rears too.


I'd love to find the thread he explained that in

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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Lol! I was just looking it up! Here you go... page #7 Post #158

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ne-seen-audiofrog-2450dsp-pic-facebook-7.html


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Thanks! That was a great read! Always love reading his posts even though they make me feel stupid lol

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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

cms983 said:


> Thanks! That was a great read! Always love reading his posts even though they make me feel stupid lol
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


no problem! Andy is a great resource for this hobby.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

cms983 said:


> I'm sure it's only possible in a car like Andy's since he has 3way gb60, 25, and 10 in every door and I'd assume you'd have to do the same for this to work. As long as both front seats are the same that's fine and I really don't care about the rear seats but it would be a nice touch. I'm just curious how the distance from the center speaker to the rear seats affects the image. I can't even imagine how it does it but I know Andy will deliver it. I am planning to attend an event at a local shop in a couple of months that the owner said Andy as well as some other big names should be attending so I can't wait to experience his Mercedes and talk to him.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


Thank you for the further detail. I agree about the center image from the rears. If you do please report back


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

But will it have a digital input!


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

t3sn4f2 said:


> But will it have a digital input!


I think it will

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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

juiceweazel said:


> Thank you for the further detail. I agree about the center image from the rears. If you do please report back


I'll definitely be there. Just hope he will! 

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

cms983 said:


> I'll definitely be there. Just hope he will!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


Why don't you just message him and ask?


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Darth SQ said:


> Why don't you just message him and ask?


Eh, I've emailed him a couple times and while he replied to my first email both times, he did not to my replies. He's a busy guy and I don't want to pester him. He has a business to run and plenty of events coming up to promote his product I'm sure. I'm not aware of a set date yet either but I might ask him if I see him in a current thread

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Anyone going to K-fest that can post updates about the processor and amplifiers while they're there?


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Sub'd


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## AutoDesignNYC (Jul 27, 2016)

Very excited to hear about this. From a business standpoint, this seems like it may be the future (at least for our clientele)


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

High end OEM integration.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Onyx1136 said:


> Anyone going to K-fest that can post updates about the processor and amplifiers while they're there?


I plan to attend, I'll do my best to get the goods on it and also hope to audition the Benz.


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

Sub'd

Looks interesting... dependent on cost.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

In the video Andy shows a 24 channel prototype that he says will not likely go into production because it would be "murderously expensive". He goes on to say that they are definitely working on something with less channels and "if you need 24 channels than you could use a couple of them." You can infer that they are planning on a 12 channel DSP which I think would be perfect. 

Also the article also says that the DSP will not create any phase issues but I wonder (and hope) that it would correct for phase issues.


If only there was a forum member that knew for sure and could let us know.

If only.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Is there really any advancement here? It's a surround processor. You still need to install a center channel. 

Why is this going to catch on now, when it didn't 15 years ago?

Andy states in his youtube video that he hates that his passenger doesn't get as good of an audio experience as him in the driver seat. Does anyone care enough about the passenger seat that they are going to invest in even more equipment to correct that well known fact? You'd think if enough people cared about that, more people would already be striving to build 2 seat cars instead of focusing on the driver seat.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

SoundAudio said:


> Is there really any advancement here? It's a surround processor. You still need to install a center channel.
> 
> Why is this going to catch on now, when it didn't 15 years ago?
> 
> Andy states in his youtube video that he hates that his passenger doesn't get as good of an audio experience as him in the driver seat. Does anyone care enough about the passenger seat that they are going to invest in even more equipment to correct that well known fact? You'd think if enough people cared about that, more people would already be striving to build 2 seat cars instead of focusing on the driver seat.


People don't built 2 seat cars because it's hard. Path of least resistance. It takes significantly more knowledge, experience, time, money and commitment to build a 2 seat car without modern digital processing. Modern processing power makes that process substantially easier. 

It has a chance to catch on now more so than the past because a significant amount of newer vehicles come equipped with factory center channels. Older vehicles that needed massive amounts of fabrication to be able to fit a center channel were a huge deterrent to even considering one. Newer vehicles that have a space for a center speaker make it a simple drop in affair. 

Personally, I agree with Andy about giving demo's. I don't want to get out of my drivers seat to let someone hear my system. The idea of them being able to just jump in the passenger seat and have the same quality listening experience appeals to me, greatly.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Onyx1136 said:


> People don't built 2 seat cars because it's hard. Path of least resistance. It takes significantly more knowledge, experience, time, money and commitment to build a 2 seat car without modern digital processing. Modern processing power makes that process substantially easier.


We've had modern processing power for a decade. Most people that are into SQ already use it and people are still not building two seat cars. 



Onyx1136 said:


> It has a chance to catch on now more so than the past because a significant amount of newer vehicles come equipped with factory center channels. Older vehicles that needed massive amounts of fabrication to be able to fit a center channel were a huge deterrent to even considering one. Newer vehicles that have a space for a center speaker make it a simple drop in affair.


I disagree. Fabrication of a center channel enclosure isn't any harder than building kick panels, door pods, or a-pillars. Yet, no one cared to do it. Not to mention, many cars have had center channels for a decade. I had a Chrysler 300c back in 2005 that had one. I never cared to use it. 

My point is.....do people care ENOUGH about the passenger seat to spend more money on a center and this processor to remedy it? I surely don't. Your center should certainly match your left and right door, so now add 1/3 of the cost up-charge just to make your passenger seat sound better. Oh, your running Dyn Esotars? Tack on another $1,100 or so just to make a matching center so your passenger, who could care less, has a center image. 

My passenger seat is good enough. Most people sitting in it don't give a damn about imaging anyway.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

oh geez, we got a new one here.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

jtaudioacc said:


> oh geez, we got a new one here.


Let me guess. You go around to all threads and make pointless posts that state no valid information? No counter points. No debate. You've done it twice in the past 10 minutes.

Everyone, with knowledge, has a right to their opinion.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

SoundAudio said:


> Let me guess. You go around to all threads and make pointless posts that state no valid information? No counter points. No debate. You've done it twice in the past 10 minutes.
> 
> Everyone, with knowledge, has a right to their opinion.


i just notice a newb trying to make himself an internet legend too soon.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

jtaudioacc said:


> i just notice a newb trying to make himself an internet legend too soon.


AKA....you don't like my opinion, have no valid argument against it, so you resort to condescending remarks. 

You may want to join the real world one of these days. A "newb" on this website is not a "newb" in the audio world. I understand that in your world, a post count on this website trumps all. But in the real world, people who don't spend all their time building up their "internet legend" status, actually have real lives. Real time to test real equipment. Real time to enjoy what they've built. Enjoy talking about it....while I live it.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

^
Chill, man. Take a step back and analyze the situation. Dude's a dealer. He probably has a couple dogs in his fight. 

While I agree with your original statement that it's certainly not for everyone, I'd be fine putting three extra center channels and processor(s) to make it tune for two. 

But my guess is that an auto manufacturing contract is the ultimate goal here. Thehatedguy is on point. Looking back at his prototype, are units like that found in audio shops, or are they pulled out of pre-assembled high end vehicles? 

If that's the ultimate goal for Audio Frog, Andy's entrepreneurial intelligence matches his tuning genius.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Back in the late 80s and 90s we had a ANALOG processor that gave a center channel and allowed the passenger to have soundstaging and imaging very close to the driver. It was the Audio Control ESP-3. It pulled the mono part of the signal from the left and right channels to create the center channel while decreasing the mono in the left and right channels. Installed and tuned correctly it worked as well as most DSPs I have heard that has a center channel. When IASCA and USACi dropped two seat judging from most of their classes, the need for a center channel diminished, and the ESP-3 went out of production. I wish AC still made them.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

SoundAudio said:


> I disagree. Fabrication of a center channel enclosure isn't any harder than building kick panels, door pods, or a-pillars. Yet, no one cared to do it.


While it may not be any harder than building any other kind of speaker mount, the number of people willing to cut a hole in their dash (considerably more expensive and difficult to replace than an a-pillar for example) are going to be very small. 

I have run with a center channel and loved it, currently I run without and am equally as happy with it. For me, I would love to try a new processor that allows me to run a center again.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

SoundAudio said:


> Is there really any advancement here? It's a surround processor. You still need to install a center channel.
> 
> Why is this going to catch on now, when it didn't 15 years ago?


As mention earlier I think you'll find that hardly any car had center channels from factory the way that many many do now. And the ones that did were higher priced cars that either came with an acceptably decent OE system and/or the type of person who had those cars had no interest in messing with it. They were also likely leased.

Now, even a compact will have a center channel, or at the very least a storage bin where the upgraded oe system's center channel would go. Making it a fairly straight foward upgrade if you get the OE grill.



SoundAudio said:


> Andy states in his youtube video that he hates that his passenger doesn't get as good of an audio experience as him in the driver seat. Does anyone care enough about the passenger seat that they are going to invest in even more equipment to correct that well known fact? You'd think if enough people cared about that, more people would already be striving to build 2 seat cars instead of focusing on the driver seat.


It's not all about making the car have good sound for both seats. It's just as important to not have terrible fatiguing sound for the passenger. That's something that tends to happen when you tune for one seat. Just because someone has no clue or cares about how something good sounds doesn't mean that can't be bothered by a honking midbass bloom while you're enjoy your pristine sound.

Cheap little Chevy Cruze.........


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

Another thing to consider is that no one is making you use the center channel processing. With the prototype, Andy stated that you could make any output anything that you want. You won't be forced to use a center channel. 

Look at it like a very flexible 12 channel(assuming) processor which happens to have center channel capabilities


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

SoundAudio said:


> Andy states in his youtube video that he hates that his passenger doesn't get as good of an audio experience as him in the driver seat. Does anyone care enough about the passenger seat that they are going to invest in even more equipment to correct that well known fact?


I do. I installed a center for that reason.


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## j4gates (Jan 1, 2016)

mitchyz250f said:


> I do. I installed a center for that reason.


Ditto. Sought a used MS-8 strictly for the center channel processing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

At one time I did too.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

SoundAudio said:


> AKA....you don't like my opinion, have no valid argument against it, so you resort to condescending remarks.
> 
> You may want to join the real world one of these days. A "newb" on this website is not a "newb" in the audio world. I understand that in your world, a post count on this website trumps all. But in the real world, people who don't spend all their time building up their "internet legend" status, actually have real lives. Real time to test real equipment. Real time to enjoy what they've built. Enjoy talking about it....while I live it.



You uh... might want to check that concept at the door. I get that you _think_ you are talking to armchair critics but most of DIYMA members (especially veterans) actually DO get their hands dirty in this hobby. 

You are talking to JT, he is well-known here for making glorious things like awesome A-pillars for instance. He lives it, let's just say that.

Now then, as someone who's a bit of a fan of well-done center channels, I for one am looking forward to what Audiofrog/Andy makes here. I can't afford his speakers or at least a full setup, but I hope to be able to afford his processor. Andy knows his **** when it comes to DSP, he knew it back at Harman and he knows it now. 

I run an MS-8 right now for the center/surround abilities. Despite needing much more tuning control (left-right EQ would be a start, followed by phase inversion channel by channel to debug a phase problem in the car, etc), surround processing is amazing when done right.


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## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

I want all my passengers to have equally good sound. When it comes to my family, i want them to enjoy the music as much as me. This new product line becomes very intriguing to me. 

In my recent build of my Avalon, I decided to get the same Illusion Audio C3CX for the rear doors as I am using up front just so my boys can enjoy the music. It isn't all about the bass. That is why rear fill wasn't an option, it was a necessity. My car is the local family car. We use it to drive around town. Long trips or the need to haul more than just us in the car, we switch to the van. The Avalon has an option for a center channel. I haven't taken the dash apart to see the dash speakers yet, so i will be taking a closer look at the possibility of adding a center channel in the future if this becomes reality. Keep up the good work Audio Frog.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SoundAudio said:


> AKA....you don't like my opinion, have no valid argument against it, so you resort to condescending remarks.
> 
> You may want to join the real world one of these days. A "newb" on this website is not a "newb" in the audio world. I understand that in your world, a post count on this website trumps all. But in the real world, people who don't spend all their time building up their "internet legend" status, actually have real lives. Real time to test real equipment. Real time to enjoy what they've built. Enjoy talking about it....while I live it.


Damn dude....you went from expert to ass cannon in just three posts.
Congrats on cementing your newb status.


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

In all fairness, JT's post was pointless. He was asking questions and saying how he felt about center channels. instead of giving him crap with zero point, he could have said he has installed for x years and here's my opinion.....It's pointless posts like that that turn people off. Just my $.02


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> I do. I installed a center for that reason.





foreman said:


> In all fairness, JT's post was pointless. He was asking questions and saying how he felt about center channels. instead of giving him crap with zero point, he could have said he has installed for x years and here's my opinion.....It's pointless posts like that that turn people off. Just my $.02


I think it is because JT and Soundaudio "already" took on a little bit of bitterness in the Mosconi thread. But I better butt out of that talk, I only know about center channels.


----------



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

SoundAudio said:


> Is there really any advancement here? It's a surround processor. You still need to install a center channel.
> 
> Why is this going to catch on now, when it didn't 15 years ago?
> 
> Andy states in his youtube video that he hates that his passenger doesn't get as good of an audio experience as him in the driver seat. Does anyone care enough about the passenger seat that they are going to invest in even more equipment to correct that well known fact? You'd think if enough people cared about that, more people would already be striving to build 2 seat cars instead of focusing on the driver seat.


Yep, upmixing has been available for years. Prologic IIx and DTS have been around for some time. But this is not a question of if, but a question of _how_. How do those systems arrive at the upmix? It's a very important question. As far as I know (I haven't checked recently), Dolby and DTS are not very forthcoming with the information. What I can tell you from experimenting with both, is that they are different. Some songs will sound better with Prologic IIx and some with DTS. But, in my opinion, neither do a great job upmixing music. They both create sonic artifacts that range from subtle to jarring at times. They both seem to harm transients. They might be ok for poor source material, or material that doesn't have much stage definition from the start. But well recorded acoustic or symphony stuff will definitely reveal the flaws.

The Penteo guys claim to go about this another way. They claim that their process does not introduce artifacts. How good it is, I cannot say. But it seems their emphasis was to retain sonic integrity of the stereo source music. This is great in studio work for introducing legacy source material into surround mixes. I would bet that for some recordings, one could still detect some anomalies. But again, I haven't heard a Penteo upmix to know for sure.

You can get their software 5.1 upmixer for $200. Might be a good enough price for somebody to get just to play around. I am not sure if it works real time, or if you have to process the material before playing it. It also doesn't seem to have EQ or anything else built in.


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## norurb (Jun 28, 2013)

I would love to see the MS-8 come back. Almost bought one then JBL cancelled my order due to being sold out. So close!


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

norurb said:


> Would love to see the MS-8 come back.


Me too but with 12 channels and full control. Maybe the choice to do auto calibration line ms8 or do it yourself or customize after auto tune. 

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

Ah, didnt know that. Makes more sense now. 
Anyhow, i'm only using a P99rs for processing, so i'm not very versed on the computer adjustable processors, however it sounds like a great tool as i've seen them used. I'm always watchful of tools that make SQ life easier 




fourthmeal said:


> I think it is because JT and Soundaudio "already" took on a little bit of bitterness in the Mosconi thread. But I better butt out of that talk, I only know about center channels.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Orion525iT said:


> Yep, upmixing has been available for years. Prologic IIx and DTS have been around for some time. But this is not a question of if, but a question of _how_. How do those systems arrive at the upmix? It's a very important question. As far as I know (I haven't checked recently), Dolby and DTS are not very forthcoming with the information. What I can tell you from experimenting with both, is that they are different. Some songs will sound better with Prologic IIx and some with DTS. But, in my opinion, neither do a great job upmixing music. They both create sonic artifacts that range from subtle to jarring at times. They both seem to harm transients. They might be ok for poor source material, or material that doesn't have much stage definition from the start. But well recorded acoustic or symphony stuff will definitely reveal the flaws.
> 
> The Penteo guys claim to go about this another way. They claim that their process does not introduce artifacts. How good it is, I cannot say. But it seems their emphasis was to retain sonic integrity of the stereo source music. This is great in studio work for introducing legacy source material into surround mixes. I would bet that for some recordings, one could still detect some anomalies. But again, I haven't heard a Penteo upmix to know for sure.
> 
> You can get their software 5.1 upmixer for $200. Might be a good enough price for somebody to get just to play around. I am not sure if it works real time, or if you have to process the material before playing it. It also doesn't seem to have EQ or anything else built in.


Penteo software requires you to process it before playing.
Obviously (and I have no inside info to confirm) Andy's new equipment will work in real time.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Darth SQ said:


> Penteo software requires you to process it before playing.
> Obviously (and I have no inside info to confirm) Andy's new equipment will work in real time.


 I have used Penteo Surround as a VST plug-in in ProTools for years in my film sound mixing. It is IMHO the best up-mix process available, both sonically and ease of use. Obviously Andy agrees! 
The people at Penteo recently approached me and told me that they were going to develop a chip of their surround up-mixing process and were interested in automotive applications. I introduced them to Andy and this is the result. I knew he was the guy who would make this happen. The process will work in real-time.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

garysummers said:


> I have used Penteo Surround as a VST plug-in in ProTools for years in my film sound mixing. It is IMHO the best up-mix process available, both sonically and ease of use. Obviously Andy agrees!
> *The people at Penteo recently approached me and told me that they were going to develop a chip of their surround up-mixing process and were interested in automotive applications. I introduced them to Andy and this is the result.* I knew he was the guy who would make this happen. The process will work in real-time.


I had a sneaking suspicion.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

garysummers said:


> I have used Penteo Surround as a VST plug-in in ProTools for years in my film sound mixing. It is IMHO the best up-mix process available, both sonically and ease of use. Obviously Andy agrees!
> The people at Penteo recently approached me and told me that they were going to develop a chip of their surround up-mixing process and were interested in automotive applications. I introduced them to Andy and this is the result. I knew he was the guy who would make this happen. The process will work in real-time.


THANK YOU, GARY! 

I just pray it ends up affordable. An MS-8 killer is very tempting. I'm really pushing mine with a surround mix rear (rear speaker/d-pillar together) with center and it just isn't ideal. Also phase is a bit off, and MS-8 has zero fix for that except to just experiment with phase on all speakers as you go.

It would be awesome if there was a way to DIY something like this, like MiniDSP does. It would be great to tweak and tune, and work with plugins like that.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

I honestly don't care what it costs as long it isn't just plain stupid expensive. If it's in the neighborhood of the helix pro and ps8 I'm sold. I assume it'll launch in the ~$1200 range though if it has 10+ channels. The other AF products aren't insanely priced compared to some other premium brands so I'm not too worried about it. I have a feeling capital one is eagerly awaiting its release and my purchase as well lol

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

garysummers said:


> I have used Penteo Surround as a VST plug-in in ProTools for years in my film sound mixing. It is IMHO the best up-mix process available, both sonically and ease of use. Obviously Andy agrees!
> The people at Penteo recently approached me and told me that they were going to develop a chip of their surround up-mixing process and were interested in automotive applications. I introduced them to Andy and this is the result. I knew he was the guy who would make this happen. The process will work in real-time.


That's enough for me, I'm sold.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Just to be clear. All I did was an introduction!
Andy has done the work.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

garysummers said:


> Just to be clear. All I did was an introduction!
> Andy has done the work.


Crystal clear.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

fourthmeal said:


> If you haven't seen it yet,
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf5POoa_axI


I just realized that Andy specifically mentions DTS Neural in the prototype. DTS makes a similar claim with Neural "of full spectral accuaracy". Neural is real time software based plugin, so I am not sure what Andy had in that box in the trunk. So it will be a switch in technology, but not a switch in concept. 

Interesting stuff either way.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Orion525iT said:


> I just realized that Andy specifically mentions DTS Neural in the prototype. DTS makes a similar claim with Neural "of full spectral accuaracy". Neural is real time software based plugin, so I am not sure what Andy had in that box in the trunk. So it will be a switch in technology, but not a switch in concept.
> 
> Interesting stuff either way.


I was just thinking about that. Remembered he mentioned dts in that video. He's must've found something better

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

So when do we get one 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

garysummers said:


> Just to be clear. All I did was an introduction!
> Andy has done the work.


Gary I saw the preview for Pete's Dragon last night.
Excellent work as always my friend.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Jscoyne2 said:


> So when do we get one
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Not soon enough unfortunately 

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

cms983 said:


> I honestly don't care what it costs as long it isn't just plain stupid expensive. If it's in the neighborhood of the helix pro and ps8 I'm sold. I assume it'll launch in the ~$1200 range though if it has 10+ channels. The other AF products aren't insanely priced compared to some other premium brands so I'm not too worried about it. I have a feeling capital one is eagerly awaiting its release and my purchase as well lol
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


Ha ha ha,


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

cms983 said:


> I honestly don't care what it costs as long it isn't just plain stupid expensive. If it's in the neighborhood of the helix pro and ps8 I'm sold. I assume it'll launch in the ~$1200 range though if it has 10+ channels. The other AF products aren't insanely priced compared to some other premium brands so I'm not too worried about it. I have a feeling capital one is eagerly awaiting its release and my purchase as well lol
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


This... Exactly this.
I know that Santa really wants to give this to me, for Christmas...


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

cms983 said:


> Me too but with 12 channels and full control. Maybe the choice to do auto calibration line ms8 or do it yourself or customize after auto tune.


One of the 2 reasons I sold my MS8 was because I wanted full control, even though I had no idea what I was doing, the part of me that likes to tinker with things wanted full control of my DSP. I never had any complaints whatsoever with it, always felt like it did a great job and would likely run something similar again in future.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

naiku said:


> One of the 2 reasons I sold my MS8 was because I wanted full control, even though I had no idea what I was doing, the part of me that likes to tinker with things wanted full control of my DSP. I never had any complaints whatsoever with it, always felt like it did a great job and would likely run something similar again in future.


Same here except I kept having boosting problems at 500hz on the right mid with my ms8. I dumped it for a 360.3 and had no clue about tuning. After learning more and measuring with rew, I can see why the ms8 had issues with my setup. I had such huge peaks and holes in that right door that ms8 couldn't fix it. I regret selling it now. I'll always have a dsp with full control from now on but I might pick up a ms8 for my wife's car someday to give it another chance with my lack of knowledge out of the way

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

I recently took out my MS-8 and installed a P99RS, and while the P99RS does not have the range of adjustments newer DSPs have today, I am enjoying my system better now since I am in control of the adjustments. The MS-8 sounded wonderful in my system, and it is a great DSP for people that don't know how to tune, but I missed the ability to easily change settings. 

I do wish Audio Frog would include the earphone mics that came with the MS-8 into their new processor. That system of using the stereo ear mics is the best way of auto-tuning that I have seen in a commercially available auto-sound DSP. All measurements done at the listener's ears with the listener in the vehicle is much better than having a single mic on a stand in the seat and the tuner outside of the vehicle.

I would like new AF unit to have full control over all tuning parameters once the auto-tuning is completed. If the MS-8 allowed more tuning then it would probably still be in my system.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I asked about AutoTune on FaceBook and this is AudioFrog's response:

"No. This one won't have an auto tune. REW makes that really easy!"


I am still buying the AudioFrog because Andy answers questions about his products personally and that is hard to find! I just hope AudioFrog is available before I buy a new car in a couple of months.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Maybe the earphone/auto-tune process is intellectual property of Harmon/JBL.

That kind of sucks a little bit because not everybody uses (or knows how to use) REW and/or other computer/equipment based acoustical measuring equipment. But then again the people that will be buying the AF processor will most likely know how to tune anyway. 

Kind of reminds me of a shop that called me years ago and asked me to come and tune one of their customer's systems with an Alpine F#1 PXA-H900 processor. They paid my gas, a hotel room, and money for food, plus $500 for my tuning work. I had a H900 in my competition car at the time and knew it front to back and side to side. The customer's system was a full out best of the best equipment at the time in a lifted Hummer H2. All the customer wanted was the BEST. He got the best the shop could find for him. I spent about 6 hours tuning and got the system sounding pretty good, not IASCA/USACi/MECA world finals good, but as good with a "speakers in factory locations" good. When the customer came to pick up his H2, he was a real prick and hated my SQ tuning. All he wanted was to have the best install with the best equipment and have it *LOUD*!!! It was a waste of a great DSP all because it was the most expensive DSP available.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Rew does make it very easy. Unfortunately the generic dsp setting in the eq window doesn't work very well with all dsp like the 360.3. I'm sure Andy will have more details on which works better when the time comes

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cmusic said:


> Maybe the earphone/auto-tune process is intellectual property of Harmon/JBL.
> 
> That kind of sucks a little bit because not everybody uses (or knows how to use) REW and/or other computer/equipment based acoustical measuring equipment.


I agree. I am so clueless about DSPs that I responded on FaceBook "what is REW" 

The only DSP that I have ever used was an Audyssey xt32 built into my Denon home receiver and I loved the changes it made.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

cms983 said:


> Same here except I kept having boosting problems at 500hz on the right mid with my ms8. I dumped it for a 360.3 and had no clue about tuning. After learning more and measuring with rew, I can see why the ms8 had issues with my setup. I had such huge peaks and holes in that right door that ms8 couldn't fix it. I regret selling it now. I'll always have a dsp with full control from now on but I might pick up a ms8 for my wife's car someday to give it another chance with my lack of knowledge out of the way
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


Yes, the MS-8 can't fix that kind of stuff, took me a while to figure that out too. But you can use REW to "see" it and adjust your build/tune/equipment to suit. 

If it had left/right (maybe center/surround too) individual EQ control, I'd actually probably call it "good enough", but extra channels and a better interface would be cool.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cms983 said:


> Rew does make it very easy. Unfortunately the generic dsp setting in the eq window doesn't work very well with all dsp like the 360.3. I'm sure Andy will have more details on which works better when the time comes
> 
> Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


To be honest, i find using the rta with pink noise and doing it manually easier and quicker than sweeps and auto eq.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> To be honest, i find using the rta with pink noise and doing it manually easier and quicker than sweeps and auto eq.


I'm not quite to that level yet. I failed miserably on my first attempt lol

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

I had the same boost issue at 500hz on the passenger side. It was a easy fix. Find the band and cut 5db. Been great ever since. 
The only issue mine has, sometimes randomly the remote volume won't work. The screen shows it changing but it's not. I hope it last a long time. It's a better tune than I ever got with the bit 1


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

im likely very IN for this when its released.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

cmusic said:


> Maybe the earphone/auto-tune process is intellectual property of Harmon/JBL.
> 
> That kind of sucks a little bit because not everybody uses (or knows how to use) REW and/or other computer/equipment based acoustical measuring equipment. But then again the people that will be buying the AF processor will most likely know how to tune anyway.
> 
> Kind of reminds me of a shop that called me years ago and asked me to come and tune one of their customer's systems with an Alpine F#1 PXA-H900 processor. They paid my gas, a hotel room, and money for food, plus $500 for my tuning work. I had a H900 in my competition car at the time and knew it front to back and side to side. The customer's system was a full out best of the best equipment at the time in a lifted Hummer H2. All the customer wanted was the BEST. He got the best the shop could find for him. I spent about 6 hours tuning and got the system sounding pretty good, not IASCA/USACi/MECA world finals good, but as good with a "speakers in factory locations" good. When the customer came to pick up his H2, he was a real prick and hated my SQ tuning. All he wanted was to have the best install with the best equipment and have it *LOUD*!!! It was a waste of a great DSP all because it was the most expensive DSP available.



in this situation--pull it back in the bay, loosen the license plate screws a bit and add a small boost at 80 and 100hz....


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> in this situation--pull it back in the bay, loosen the license plate screws a bit and add a small boost at 80 and 100hz....


Haha loosen the license plate screws!! so true :laugh:


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> To be honest, i find using the rta with pink noise and doing it manually easier and quicker than sweeps and auto eq.


Damn, wish you lived closer to me. I'd love for someone to walk me through how to tune my bit10. Got to get a mic first though.
Speaking of which I need a new signature soon...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

juiceweazel said:


> Damn, wish you lived closer to me. I'd love for someone to walk me through how to tune my bit10. Got to get a mic first though.
> Speaking of which I need a new signature soon...


come to the show in syracuse on september 11th. ill be happy to walk you through


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

DDFusionV2 said:


> I had the same boost issue at 500hz on the passenger side. It was a easy fix. Find the band and cut 5db. Been great ever since.
> The only issue mine has, sometimes randomly the remote volume won't work. The screen shows it changing but it's not. I hope it last a long time. It's a better tune than I ever got with the bit 1


Even cutting 10db wasn't enough to get rid of it 

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

That's a crazy dip. I thought mine was bad


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> come to the show in syracuse on september 11th. ill be happy to walk you through


Appreciate that. Syracuse Custom's hosting this? Meca, IASCA?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

juiceweazel said:


> Appreciate that. Syracuse Custom's hosting this? Meca, IASCA?


both. going to be a very good turn out. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-round-3x-meca-|-iasca-show-shine-prizes.html


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

cms983 said:


> Rew does make it very easy. Unfortunately the generic dsp setting in the eq window doesn't work very well with all dsp like the 360.3. I'm sure Andy will have more details on which works better when the time comes


It'd be nice if AudioFrog worked with REW to make an integration where the AutoEQ settings can be exported directly into the DSP like they have for MiniDSP.

Save a lot of time.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

FunkPnut said:


> It'd be nice if AudioFrog worked with REW to make an integration where the AutoEQ settings can be exported directly into the DSP like they have for MiniDSP.
> 
> Save a lot of time.


That would be awesome but I'd be happy enough to just be able to select the af dsp from the eq window so the end results will be correct. Knowing that Andy himself uses rew and has done so in examples on his af facebook page, I'd think it's possible it could happen.

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

cms983 said:


> FunkPnut said:
> 
> 
> > It'd be nice if AudioFrog worked with REW to make an integration where the AutoEQ settings can be exported directly into the DSP like they have for MiniDSP.
> ...


I was thinking about something the other day.
I wish rew would spit out an auto eq file that could be loaded into my dsp.
If he puts something like this in I'm buying price be damned.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> both. going to be a very good turn out.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-round-3x-meca-|-iasca-show-shine-prizes.html


This looks interesting. I'll see if a few of us could show up. 4 hour drive so leave at 3 am lol


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

A few people I know are going to hear this in Dallas next week. Looking forward to reviews 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

The 'KnowledgeFest trade show' is this weekend. Maybe once the show is over and the official release is made Andy will provide some more info. Any here going?


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Most of the guys left yesterday and today. Can't wait for that text message/video of this DSP. 

#PatientlyWaiting 


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

MrGreen83 said:


> #PatientlyWaiting


You're better than me. 

#IMPatientlyWaiting


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

I'll be there Sunday. Can't wait


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I went today and got an extensive (20 minutes) to demo the Benz to my hearts desire. To summarize in a few words....Wow, Holysh!t, Awesome! The Frog guys have done it! Absolutely stunning 2-seat tuning! The backseats ain't too shabby either, just different than the front two. Every track rendered a dead-perfect soundstage, centered directly in front of you, regardless of where you sat. Andy had no product, prototypes, or literature on-hand, just the Benz. He was super-friendly and kind enough to answer some questions and explain the basis of what the DSP does.

My best summary of Andy's explanation is this:
The DSP takes the the 2-channel signal, processes it into a 7.1-channel mix comprised of Front-Left, Front-Center, Front-Right, Side-Left, Side-Right, Rear-Left, Rear-Right, & Sub Channels. The Center, Sides, and Rears Channels ("Surround Channels") are all derived from the original 2-channel signal, from specific cues in the recording. So, some music tracks will contain cues which result in substantial information in the "Surround Channels", while other tracks will not.

Left-to-Right time alignment is not necessary, due to the Front-Center eliminating any Side-Biasing. However, time alignment may be needed within a single channel (i.e. aligning the Midbass, Midrange, and Tweeter for the Front-Left Channel).

The 2 Side Channels (what's in the rear doors of the Benz) provide WIDTH to the Soundstage.

The 2 Rear Channels (what's in the rear deck of the Benz) create DEPTH to the Soundstage.

Friendly Andy:


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## ugnlol (Apr 14, 2010)

Cool idea.
But, seeing how much difference (lack of skills) there is with people about how to adjust a DSP good this have to be a complete nightmare?
I think we all agree on that automatically adjustment sucks, you have to do it manually and now suddenly one seat/position is going to affect the other seat.. sounds fun


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

ugnlol said:


> Cool idea.
> But, seeing how much difference (lack of skills) there is with people about how to adjust a DSP good this have to be a complete nightmare?
> I think we all agree on that automatically adjustment sucks, you have to do it manually and now suddenly one seat/position is going to affect the other seat.. sounds fun


Automatic adjustment doesn't suck if it is on-point and has enough power/intelligence to do it right. But I bet it will use REW for some functions.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

ugnlol said:


> Cool idea.
> But, seeing how much difference (lack of skills) there is with people about how to adjust a DSP good this have to be a complete nightmare?
> I think we all agree on that automatically adjustment sucks, you have to do it manually and now suddenly one seat/position is going to affect the other seat.. sounds fun


I honestly can't tell if you are for or against autotune eq's. And no, we don't all agree "on that automatically adjustment sucks." Far from it, actually.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

I'm game for some automation as long as I have the option to control it if I wish to do so.

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Pics from KnowledgeFEST added above.

Also, here's JL Audio's and DIYMA's own Manville Smith emerging from Andy's Benz.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

metanium said:


> Pics from KnowledgeFEST added above.
> 
> Also, here's JL Audio's and DIYMA's own Manville Smith emerging from Andy's Benz.


Your links are all bad.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

technology.. Really cool thing when it works. 










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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm sure they are REALLY nice pics....but we can't see them 


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mannnnnn I need it! Lol


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Onyx1136 said:


> Your links are all bad.





Babs said:


> technology.. Really cool thing when it works.
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> [QUOTE="MrGreen83, post: 4050089, member: 91866"] I'm sure they are REALLY nice pics....but we can't see them [/QUOTE]
> ...


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## dallasneon (Nov 3, 2005)

I listened to Andy's car for about 15 minutes today, really sounds amazing! Pics work for me.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

With the center in front of you does the stage seem smaller?


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm digging those stock locations!


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

metanium said:


> Do my pics show to you guys now? Sorry, they showed on my end.


Pics are working now.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Any news about the processor yet? Or amps?


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Onyx1136 said:


> Any news about the processor yet? Or amps?


Andy stated that they're "in the works" with nothing to show now. He said all of the amps will include integrated DSP. I asked if AF will also offer a standalone DSP unit, and he confirmed that they will.


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## Mlarson67 (Jan 9, 2015)

Just got some audiofrog mids and tweets. Build quality is top notch. Service is top notch also


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Mlarson67 said:


> Just got some audiofrog mids and tweets. Build quality is top notch. Service is top notch also


It sure is. Can't wait to get my mids in and can't wait to see the stand alone dsp 

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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

I just bought a set of GB10, GB40, GB60 speakers for the front components and a set of GS60 for the rear door fills in my 2005 GX470. Those will be powered by 2 JL HD600 amps, with a single GB12D4 in a small sealed box powered by a JL HD750 handling the sub duties. 
The thing is I bought a Helix DSP Pro to control it all and now wonder if the Audiofrog DSP would have been better. Any idea how long until this goes on sale to the public ?


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## TwistdInfinity (Jun 7, 2015)

MKnopfler said:


> I just bought a set of GB10, GB40, GB60 speakers for the front components and a set of GS60 for the rear door fills in my 2005 GX470. Those will be powered by 2 JL HD600 amps, with a single GB12D4 in a small sealed box powered by a JL HD750 handling the sub duties.
> The thing is I bought a Helix DSP Pro to control it all and now wonder if the Audiofrog DSP would have been better. Any idea how long until this goes on sale to the public ?


I wouldn't hold your breath about the DSP just yet. Can always upgrade again later

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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

MKnopfler said:


> Any idea how long until this goes on sale to the public ?


Just guessing, but based on standard industry lead times, I'm guessing 4th quarter of 2017 at the earliest. And that feels a little optimistic.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Onyx1136 said:


> Just guessing, but based on standard industry lead times, I'm guessing 4th quarter of 2017 at the earliest. And that feels a little optimistic.


Agreed. He didn't have one too show so there's still awhile to go. I'm hoping by Q1 2018 so I can grab it for the new car. if not, I hope he'll at least release dimensions and connection layout so I can leave room for it if needed

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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Will probably see the Audiofrog DSP before Audison even updates the BitPlay or releases the Bit One HD. Sad 

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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

Talked to Andy Sunday and they don't even have a piece of hardware yet. So, it is going to be a good while. 


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## dallasneon (Nov 3, 2005)

aholland1198 said:


> Talked to Andy Sunday and they don't even have a piece of hardware yet. So, it is going to be a good while.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right, my understanding from him was that he signed an agreement/partnership with the company that developed the software he is running in his current DSP/amp last week. Can't think of the company name right now. But it'll be a while before we see anything.

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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

Penteo is the product, by perfect surround. 


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## dallasneon (Nov 3, 2005)

aholland1198 said:


> Penteo is the product, by perfect surround.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's it, thanks.

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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Remember that he isn't releasing what he has in the MB, it's going to be an 8 or 10 channel out processor not a 24 channel


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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

chefhow said:


> Remember that he isn't releasing what he has in the MB, it's going to be an 8 or 10 channel out processor not a 24 channel
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the info, I'll be good with the Helix DSP Pro then.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

I too was able to listen to the Benz at Knowledgefest and spend some time with Andy. I sat in the passenger seat as well as the back seat and listened to 4 tracks.


metanium said:


> Absolutely stunning 2-seat tuning! The backseats ain't too shabby either, just different than the front two.


EXACTLY my thoughts. The rear seat imaging wasn't anything truly special, but it was ok. Better than most, that's for sure. lol But the passenger seat imaging was dead-to-nuts on point. The *WIDTH* is what impressed me the most. Everyone is always looking for depth and people are even judged by how far onto the hood you can get that stage to sound. Well the Benz is out there. It's got depth. But that stage is a mile wide while still sounding centered and true to life. To really sum it all up, a lot of fun to listen to. 

But after talking with Andy and checking everything out.... I began to think about some things. He's got like 17 speakers in that car, which are all in very convenient locations. All very high end with some very high end power behind them. This is not something I can sell to my customers. Will I ever sell that setup? Yeah. Sure. But this is not something that's going to keep my lights on. Everyone on this board is the minority. We are the top 5%. This setup..... this is the top 0.005%.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

firebirdude said:


> But after talking with Andy and checking everything out.... I began to think about some things. He's got like 17 speakers in that car, which are all in very convenient locations. All very high end with some very high end power behind them. This is not something I can sell to my customers. Will I ever sell that setup? Yeah. Sure. But this is not something that's going to keep my lights on. Everyone on this board is the minority. We are the top 5%. This setup..... this is the top 0.005%.


Keep in mind that his Benz is way overkill, and mostly for the sake of being overkill. 24 channels isn't necessary, nor is having every single speaker be an active channel. The same thing could be accomplished with way fewer channels and a few passive crossovers. Andy went overboard to generate buzz, and it worked very well. People are talking about it just because of how many active channels of processing it had. 

On a retail level, the same thing could be accomplished with mid level gear and 10-12 channels of processing. Which is still beyond what most retailers are comfortable selling, but not outside the scope of feasibility. It would still be the top few percent of retailers that could pull it off as a whole system in one purchase, but it can also be done incrementally in smaller steps. Start out with just the processor/amplifier combo, then do a few sets of speakers at a time every so often. It will require a different approach to system design selling than what most retailers are comfortable with, but the retailers that can successfully change their mindset and practices will see the benefit of it.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> Keep in mind that his Benz is way overkill, and mostly for the sake of being overkill. 24 channels isn't necessary, nor is having every single speaker be an active channel. The same thing could be accomplished with way fewer channels and a few passive crossovers. Andy went overboard to generate buzz, and it worked very well. People are talking about it just because of how many active channels of processing it had.
> 
> On a retail level, the same thing could be accomplished with mid level gear and 10-12 channels of processing. Which is still beyond what most retailers are comfortable selling, but not outside the scope of feasibility. It would still be the top few percent of retailers that could pull it off as a whole system in one purchase, but it can also be done incrementally in smaller steps. Start out with just the processor/amplifier combo, then do a few sets of speakers at a time every so often. It will require a different approach to system design selling than what most retailers are comfortable with, but the retailers that can successfully change their mindset and practices will see the benefit of it.


Well, I'd like to hear his amp and processor on a vehicle that has less than optimal speaker locations (soooo 99% of cars on the road lol). Then I'd like to hear his amp and processor on a vehicle with only a 6.5" in the door and tweet in the pillar. Yes, we can always fab in speaker locations. Not the point. Between vehicles with:

1) coaxial speakers in each of the four doors
2) woofer in door and tweet in a-pillar/side mirror
3) woofer in door and installer fabs optimal tweeter location

we've covered 99.826% of cars on the road and common installs. Not knocking any of this in the least bit. Just saying, I'm impressed, but my jury is still out on how I can sell this and make some money on a regular basis.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

If u looked at the pics of Andy's car he has less than stellar speaker locations with midbass and midrange and tweeters in doors and a center channel.
Many new cars already come with a center channel

His custom amp processor is also only 50watts rms per channel


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> If u looked at the pics of Andy's car he has less than stellar speaker locations with midbass and midrange and tweeters in doors and a center channel.
> Many new cars already come with a center channel
> I
> His custom amp processor is also only 50watts rms per channel


Agreed. His speaker locations are very commonly used for factory locations. I could see someone taking the upcoming AF DSP and using it on a factory system, using factory amp & speakers. Then proceed to upgrade to better amplification, speakers, & subs, as they desired. Assuming they have a factory center, like my truck has.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Mic10is said:


> If u looked at the pics of Andy's car he has less than stellar speaker locations with midbass and midrange and tweeters in doors and a center channel.


According to Andy (if I understand correctly), speakers in the doors are the most desirable location, if you use a center channel. He says it adds width to the soundstage & keeps it from reflecting off the glass.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> According to Andy (if I understand correctly), speakers in the doors are the most desirable location, if you use a center channel. He says it adds width to the soundstage & keeps it from reflecting off the glass.




Correct, but how many of us have cars that have OEM center channels? Andy's car was outstanding to listen to this weekend but it's not going to be something that 99.9% of us would ever do and he knows that. This was to show what it could do, he is developing something that is commercially viable. 


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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

I just purchased a complete Audiofrog speaker set for my GX470. A set of 3 way GB60, GB40, GB10 for the front doors. In the rear door fills are GS60, and a GB124D in a small sealed box for the sub. 9 total speakers- all in the stock locations with the exception of the sub. The sub gets power from a JL HD750 and the 8 speakers get power from two JL HD600 4 channel amps. It will all be controlled by a Helix DSP Pro. A friend of mine is a certified installer and he helped guide through the daunting task of picking gear from the myriad of options available now. I also read quite a bit on this forum and changed my mind a few times before finally deciding on the Audiofrog & Jl & Helix. The only thing I haven't been able to decide on is a head unit, I'm actually underwhelmed by most of what I've seen as far as head units go.
Anyway, I will certainly report back on how this project sounds once its completed and tuned. From what I've been reading about Audiofrog the results should be amazing compared to the stock set up and make me look for excuses to go for a drive. lol.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Don't worry Chef and maybe other guys soon... your next vehicle whenever it happens will have a center channel and it'll be looking for that nice audiofrog box!!  (My last two random rental vehicles recently (average Toyota and Dodge minivans) also had the center channel... surprised me.)


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

MKnopfler said:


> I just purchased a complete Audiofrog speaker set for my GX470. A set of 3 way GB60, GB40, GB10 for the front doors. In the rear door fills are GS60, and a GB124D in a small sealed box for the sub. 9 total speakers- all in the stock locations with the exception of the sub. The sub gets power from a JL HD750 and the 8 speakers get power from two JL HD600 4 channel amps. It will all be controlled by a Helix DSP Pro. A friend of mine is a certified installer and he helped guide through the daunting task of picking gear from the myriad of options available now. I also read quite a bit on this forum and changed my mind a few times before finally deciding on the Audiofrog & Jl & Helix. The only thing I haven't been able to decide on is a head unit, I'm actually underwhelmed by most of what I've seen as far as head units go.
> Anyway, I will certainly report back on how this project sounds once its completed and tuned. From what I've been reading about Audiofrog the results should be amazing compared to the stock set up and make me look for excuses to go for a drive. lol.




Curious why u went with mids in the rear instead of a coaxial. Won't it just play bass which your subwoofer is for? 


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

MrGreen83 said:


> Curious why u went with mids in the rear instead of a coaxial. Won't it just play bass which your subwoofer is for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Was thinking the same thing. I was planning some gs42 for my rear fill. Maybe gs62 if I can fit them in my c pillar

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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

MrGreen83 said:


> Curious why u went with mids in the rear instead of a coaxial. Won't it just play bass which your subwoofer is for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmmmm...:blush: 
Good call on that, I'll be sending those back and going with the GS62 instead.
Crutchfield has the GS62 in stock. Since the GS60 won't arrive until tomorrow according to the tracking maybe I can just send them right back. I'm gonna give Crutchfield a call. Thanks again !!
This forum rocks. 
* EDIT***
Wow, I just got of the phone with Crutchfield. They are rerouting the GS60 back to them and sending me the GS62 instead. The kicker is, the GS speakers are on sale now for $60 off, so they are refunding me $10 on the upgrade !!! Woo hoo !!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

While a coaxial works quite well, as I understand it, a midrange capable of covering from approximately 200 Hz - 3 kHz is sufficient for most implementations of differential rear fill, L7, PLII and other surround processing systems. 

Andy can probably speak much more intelligently to this than I ever could. Especially in regards to the system that he is developing with Perfect Surround for Audiofrog. Hopefully he pops in here eventually.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Do you think 200hz to 20,000hz coaxial is sufficient for the center channel?

I am trying to figure out what I need to shoehorn into the dash.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

KillerBox said:


> Do you think 200hz to 20,000hz coaxial is sufficient for the center channel?
> 
> I am trying to figure out what I need to shoehorn into the dash.


I've heard Andy say the center should play down to 200hz so I'd say so. My plan is a gs42 for my center depending on the space available in my next car. Should be able to cross that in the high 100s hz just fine with a 24db slope. 

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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

As I understand it, 200 Hz is the highest you would want to high pass a properly processed (read: not L+R) center channel. Lower HPF is better, but only if they driver is truly capable of playing lower with the same authority.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

rton20s said:


> While a coaxial works quite well, as I understand it, a midrange capable of covering from approximately 200 Hz - 3 kHz is sufficient for most implementations of differential rear fill, L7, PLII and other surround processing systems.
> 
> Andy can probably speak much more intelligently to this than I ever could. Especially in regards to the system that he is developing with Perfect Surround for Audiofrog. Hopefully he pops in here eventually.


At least one advantage he has with the coaxial is he could play higher if he likes how it sounds or has rear passengers. Good reminder about how to potentially setup if the focus is rear FILL.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

I tried running rears with the Logic 7. It may just be me but it was worlds better without. They where full range coax but weak on the top end. It may have been a power, blending, placement problem but I didn't care for it.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

The majority of people do not know that I ran rear fill using an Audio Control ESP2 to extract the L-R signal . It was heavily attenuated and band limited, but it added additional ambiance and created a much larger sense of space.
It took quite awhile to get it right when tuning. a Db here or there was either too much or not enough.

I demo'd the system with and without to several ears I trust and all agreed that it sounded better WITH, than Without and that it was very much something that until you heard it both ways you didnt know it was there to know it was missing


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Nice! 


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Is there anyone that has Audiofrog subwoofers installed & has photos, and/or a review? I've yet to install mine and I can't find any reviews or videos of them playing.

Yes I know I won't get the full enjoyment from just SEEING them play....but it sure would tickle my fancy lol


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

Niebur has 3 tens you can see in his build log. Bradknob has a single 12 in his build log. I'm sure there are a few others but they escape me right now.


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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

I just got off the phone with Andy. He recommended setting the crossover at 80 to 100 on the rear fills because we don't really need much bass from them. Sure am glad I read this forum, thanks to this community !!


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Mic10is said:


> The majority of people do not know that I ran rear fill using an Audio Control ESP2 to extract the L-R signal . It was heavily attenuated and band limited, but it added additional ambiance and created a much larger sense of space.
> It took quite awhile to get it right when tuning. a Db here or there was either too much or not enough.
> 
> I demo'd the system with and without to several ears I trust and all agreed that it sounded better WITH, than Without and that it was very much something that until you heard it both ways you didnt know it was there to know it was missing


I'm sure if I spent more time with it it would have been better. You know the MS-8 is pretty limited when it comes to adjusting the rears. I might dig back into it one day but right now the funds can be used better.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

-Mosconi with the new 8 to 12 

-Audison with the Bit One HD

-Audiotec-Fischer with the M 5DSP

This year is shaping up to be a big one on the DSP side of things. Can't wait to see everyone's experience with them. 


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

More DSPs less headunits. It's a new era


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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

DDFusionV2 said:


> More DSPs less headunits. It's a new era


I'm interested in what everyone is using with their DSP's. I'm leaving the stock HU intact for now but want to be able to use the Helix DSP Pro with hi-rez audio files. Maybe from a USB stick or a Digital Music player right into the DSP itself if that can happen. 
So what are you guys running ?


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## TwistdInfinity (Jun 7, 2015)

MKnopfler said:


> I'm interested in what everyone is using with their DSP's. I'm leaving the stock HU intact for now but want to be able to use the Helix DSP Pro with hi-rez audio files. Maybe from a USB stick or a Digital Music player right into the DSP itself if that can happen.
> So what are you guys running ?


Don't wanna go too OT, but I'm using a Nexus 7 with a usb to spdif adapter. 

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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Stock HU. Usb in my console. Bit Ten D. In most of the new cars, an aftermarket HU is just unnecessary if u have a DSP


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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

MrGreen83 said:


> Stock HU. Usb in my console. Bit Ten D. In most of the new cars, *an aftermarket HU is just unnecessary if u have a DSP
> *
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is what i was starting to think as well. Just need a way to run hi def audio files into the DSP, preferably with the optical audio input I'd guess - and a way to control it. A portable hi def music player with optical audio out ?


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Set the tune up right and you won't hear a difference with hi res


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## MKnopfler (Jun 29, 2016)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Set the tune up right and you won't hear a difference with hi res


Since I have the Led Zeppelin and Fleetwood Mac catalogs in hi rez, and the DSP is capable of processing it, you bet I want to hear them that way. :happy:


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

OK. I'm back. had to sign up for a new account because no appeal to the webmaster would produce a remedy for the password snafu.

In reply to many of the posts here:

1. DSP hardware takes awhile. Now that we have a piece of software, we can determine what we need in terms of hardware to run this thing. If you're building a car, buy another DSP for now. 

2. Tuning this thing for imaging is MUCH easier than tuning a 2-seat car. Imaging is what this software does. This is like mowing the lawn with a lawnmower instead of a beard trimmer. 

3. A significant number of new cars include a center speaker location and the numbers are growing. 

4. If you were occasionally annoyed by bizarre happenings in the rear speakers with L7 or PL2, rest assured. This generates rear and sides in a different way and I have yet to play anything that makes the sides and rears do strange stuff. 

5. You don't need 20 channels to make this work. Front speakers, rear speakers and a center don't have to be high end speakers or active systems. A decent coaxial in the center and the sides/rears is fine. 

6. Stage width is always determined by the position of the right and left speakers. If you want your narrow stage back, build pillar pods. A center in the top of the dash helps with height, but all the audio principles apply.


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

ugnlol said:


> Cool idea.
> But, seeing how much difference (lack of skills) there is with people about how to adjust a DSP good this have to be a complete nightmare?
> I think we all agree on that automatically adjustment sucks, you have to do it manually and now suddenly one seat/position is going to affect the other seat.. sounds fun


Basically, once the EQ is finished, you can put in the 7 drum beats track and adjust the level of the center channel until they move across the dash. Side speaker settings increase stage width and rears increase stage depth and provide a sense of space. 

It's pretty simple to set up. No left and right delay is necessary and that means no interminable managing of compromises. The performance is also not as dependent on a perfect frequency response match between left and right front speakers. That doesn't mean everything can suck and this magically fixes it, though.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Set the tune up right and you won't hear a difference with hi res


if anything that would help highlight the difference


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Frogsrule I had the same problem and was unable to log into DIYMA for about a week. I assume you were Andy before your forced identify change. Is Frogsrule your 'Lucha libre' wrestling name?


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

mitchyz250f said:


> Frogsrule I had the same problem and was unable to log into DIYMA for about a week. Who were you before your forced identify change. Are you Andy?


Yes, I'm Andy.


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

Andy, I think everyone is wanting to know the ETA on your DSP. Any rough ideas you care to share?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Frogsrule said:


> Yes, I'm Andy.



Thanks for coming back, man!



Can someone point me to the "7 drums" thing? I need to tweak my MS-8's center output at some point.


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

EmptyKim said:


> Andy, I think everyone is wanting to know the ETA on your DSP. Any rough ideas you care to share?


No ETA yet. We had to do the software first so we can determine what we need for a target processor chip. Kinda like...if you're shopping for a computer and you're going to surf the web and send emails, a pentium is OK. If you're going to play WOW, then something entirely different is required.


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

fourthmeal said:


> Thanks for coming back, man!
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone point me to the "7 drums" thing? I need to tweak my MS-8's center output at some point.


I'm going to build some test discs. I think the A2K discs are fine for old-school tuning, but the industry needs an update. Add that to my long list of stuff to do.


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Thanks for coming back, man!
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone point me to the "7 drums" thing? I need to tweak my MS-8's center output at some point.


PM me your email and I can send you the IASCA track.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> Thanks for coming back, man!
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone point me to the "7 drums" thing? I need to tweak my MS-8's center output at some point.


The 7 drum beats track is on most of the IASCA judging CDs going back to the mid '90s.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

Frogsrule said:


> I'm going to build some test discs. I think the A2K discs are fine for old-school tuning, but the industry needs an update. Add that to my long list of stuff to do.


Welcome back. Did they ask for a blood sample?
We do need some new test CDs. Stuff that isn't terribly boring please ha ha. If possible could you make it digital? I ordered the new IASCA reference CD on 8/3 and they still haven't shipped. Patience is very low with me lately.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

There is some cool tracks in Spotify on the CAMBRIDGE speaker test playlist. 
A lot of variety.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Frogsrule said:


> I'm going to build some test discs. I think the A2K discs are fine for old-school tuning, but the industry needs an update. Add that to my long list of stuff to do.


I'd love to use them if you get to making them. Well, not discs because none of my cars have CD slots anymore, but digitally...YES!

If you end up making something like that, definitely would love a copy.


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## notn41 (Dec 24, 2015)

interesting


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## eling23 (Oct 13, 2014)

did i hear wrong but did Andy's benz have 3 speakers for the front center? 2 mids and a tweeter?


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## fullergoku (Jun 21, 2009)

Nope you didn't hear wrong!!


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

it's like a home theater center speaker... they always like to put 2 mids and a tweet


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## eling23 (Oct 13, 2014)

I wonder if that would be required to get similar imaging as Andy's car instead of just a mid/tweet combo or a coaxial. May be difficult to install 2 mids in the center without much modification.... just thinking ahead.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

eling23 said:


> I wonder if that would be required to get similar imaging as Andy's car instead of just a mid/tweet combo or a coaxial. May be difficult to install 2 mids in the center without much modification.... just thinking ahead.


I was originally thinking the gs42 coax but with an fs of 160ish, I don't think it's going to play low enough for a great center. I haven't looked a whole lot but most cars only come with 3-4" factory center speakers and not enough room to cram two gb40s plus a tweeter in there. I don't know what I'm going to do yet  would be awesome if AF made a 4x6 or 5x7" coax that would work well as a center. Wouldn't be much interest in them otherwise so it's probably not smart for them to waste money on R&D for minimal return

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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

hey guys, if you can only fit one mid-type speaker (not 2 mids) in the center, then for practical reasons just go with one! The 2 mids is a luxury when we have enough space in the center area. But be sure you guys kindly talk to each other... don't want a leftover speaker when we have to buy them in pairs... split the pair/set with each other.


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

I did two GB40s because I wanted a 100Hz low frequency cutoff. It turned out to be totally unnecessary. One would have been fine. A coaxial would have been fine, too. Since I have a warehouse full of speakers and limited time for experimentation and rebuilding, I just went for broke at the outset. 

An active 3-way in the rear doors is also unnecessary...LOL


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Frogsrule said:


> I did two GB40s because I wanted a 100Hz low frequency cutoff. It turned out to be totally unnecessary. One would have been fine. A coaxial would have been fine, too. Since I have a warehouse full of speakers and limited time for experimentation and rebuilding, I just went for broke at the outset.
> 
> An active 3-way in the rear doors is also unnecessary...LOL


Which one turned out to be unnecessary, a center that played to 100hz, or the two Gb40s? 
I guess i'm just asking how low does a center channel need to to play to sound good? I was wondering if a pod for a pair of Gb25 and a tweeter as a center channel would work. Removing windshields and cutting into a dashboard is just a bit sketchy for my pay grade.


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

Frogsrule said:


> I did two GB40s because I wanted a 100Hz low frequency cutoff. It turned out to be totally unnecessary. One would have been fine. A coaxial would have been fine, too. Since I have a warehouse full of speakers and limited time for experimentation and rebuilding, I just went for broke at the outset.
> 
> An active 3-way in the rear doors is also unnecessary...LOL


How would a gs42 do as a center? Would a 170hz crossover with a 24db LR slope be too low for this driver with an fs of 146?

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Frogsrule said:


> I did two GB40s because I wanted a 100Hz low frequency cutoff. It turned out to be totally unnecessary. One would have been fine. A coaxial would have been fine, too. Since I have a warehouse full of speakers and limited time for experimentation and rebuilding, I just went for broke at the outset.
> 
> An active 3-way in the rear doors is also unnecessary...LOL



Now there's a great use for GS coaxials. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Frogsrule (Aug 25, 2016)

A GS42 is fine for a center.

In my car, the TWO GB40s probably weren't necessary. One would have provided the 100Hz cutoff adequately.


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## dawaro (Jul 22, 2015)

Frogsrule said:


> A GS42 is fine for a center.
> 
> In my car, the TWO GB40s probably weren't necessary. One would have provided the 100Hz cutoff adequately.


Hi Andy. After looking at the pictures of your center I am curious, is that a port at the top of the baffle? Are the drivers in an actual enclosure or just IB in the dash.

I am slowly but surely working to get my GB10/25/60 front stage installed but I am on the fence about drivers for my center and rears.

I have an F150 which has a tray in the center where I think I can fit a GS682. For ease of install I am also looking at the same drivers for the rear doors.

I would love to hear you thoughts on using that combination of drivers.

Thanks,
David


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

whats a Spotify?????


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

instalher said:


> whats a Spotify?????


It's a music app, like Pandora.


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## instalher (May 13, 2009)

man first the internet, now Spotify, what next, phones that take pictures...lol we live in the greatest time in history...


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Everyone talks about how good Andy's system sounds but, I assume his 24 channel amp is Class D? I asked because some people say you can't get good sound from a Class D.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Everyone talks about how good Andy's system sounds but, I assume his 24 channel amp is Class D? I asked because some people say you can't get good sound from a Class D.


double subscribed so i can witness the **** show thats about to ensue..


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## adriancp (Feb 12, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> double subscribed so i can witness the **** show thats about to ensue..




Omg I wish there was a "like" button for this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pariah Zero (Mar 23, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> Everyone talks about how good Andy's system sounds but, I assume his 24 channel amp is Class D? I asked because some people say you can't get good sound from a Class D.



Thanks to the internet, we can always find "some people" who will say just about everything, often with "facts" that support their view.

Want to find modern, articulate folks who say the Earth is flat, and they can prove it? It's just a few mouse clicks away.

The audio world is filled with a lot of dogma and oft-repeated mantras. 

It's cute and quaint in a way, but repetition of fiction doesn't change it into fact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pariah Zero (Mar 23, 2016)

Edit: deleted duplicate


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## cms983 (Jul 11, 2015)

KillerBox said:


> Everyone talks about how good Andy's system sounds but, I assume his 24 channel amp is Class D? I asked because some people say you can't get good sound from a Class D.


My Arc 1200.6 sh*ts all over my old RF P450.4 AB amp. Yeah it wasn't a top of the line amp by any means but my stage sounds so much fuller and detailed. I can pin point every sound exactly on the stage. Hard to believe from reading but I didn't believe it either when reading a review before I bought it. Good parts produce good sound. I'm sure Andy spared no expense on the components of that amp. 

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Everyone talks about how good Andy's system sounds but, I assume his 24 channel amp is Class D? I asked because some people say you can't get good sound from a Class D.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Orion525iT said:


> Yep, upmixing has been available for years. Prologic IIx and DTS have been around for some time. But this is not a question of if, but a question of _how_. How do those systems arrive at the upmix? It's a very important question. As far as I know (I haven't checked recently), Dolby and DTS are not very forthcoming with the information. What I can tell you from experimenting with both, is that they are different. Some songs will sound better with Prologic IIx and some with DTS. But, in my opinion, neither do a great job upmixing music. They both create sonic artifacts that range from subtle to jarring at times. They both seem to harm transients. They might be ok for poor source material, or material that doesn't have much stage definition from the start. But well recorded acoustic or symphony stuff will definitely reveal the flaws.
> 
> The Penteo guys claim to go about this another way. They claim that their process does not introduce artifacts. How good it is, I cannot say. But it seems their emphasis was to retain sonic integrity of the stereo source music. This is great in studio work for introducing legacy source material into surround mixes. I would bet that for some recordings, one could still detect some anomalies. But again, I haven't heard a Penteo upmix to know for sure.
> 
> You can get their software 5.1 upmixer for $200. Might be a good enough price for somebody to get just to play around. I am not sure if it works real time, or if you have to process the material before playing it. It also doesn't seem to have EQ or anything else built in.


Dolby has published how their spec works

I haven't been able to find a published spec from the Penteo dude

From his bio over at avsforum, it appears that he works at Skywalker Sound

There seems to be an infinite number of ways to turn stereo into multi-channel the whole thing is giving me a headache

Here is Jim Fosgate's matrix, which Dolby acquired and re-named "Dolby ProLogic II"

Note that Fosgate leaves the left and right channel intact. If I had to speculate, that would likely be the place we might find the biggest improvement. Leaving the left and right channel intact makes sense in a large room (like a theater) but in a car, I believe you might get quite a bit of interference from the center channel.

YMMV

LEFT CHANNEL = AS IS
RIGHT CHANNEL = AS IS
CENTER CHANNEL = (0.7071 LEFT CHANNEL + 0.7071 RIGHT CHANNEL) BANDPASS 70 20000 
LFE CHANNEL = (0.7071 LEFT CHANNEL + 0.7071 RIGHT CHANNEL) LOWPASS FILTER 120
REAR LEFT CHANNEL = 0.8718 LT CH WITH -90 DEG PHASE SHIFT + 0.4898 RT CH WITH +90 DEG PHASE SHIFT
REAR RIGHT CHANNEL = 0.4898 LT CH WITH -90 DEG PHASE SHIFT + 0.8718 RT CH WITH +90 DEG PHASE SHIFT


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> double subscribed so i can witness the **** show thats about to ensue..


If I ever win the Powerball, the first thing I am going to do is go buy a half dozen Toyota Camrys and build different systems to double blind test people at shows.

Second thing I will do is buy a Mexican wrestling mask and Challenge El ****** to winner takes the 24 channel DSP amplifier combo.


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## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

sub...lots of good intel


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Focused4door said:


> If I ever win the Powerball, the first thing I am going to do is go buy a half dozen Toyota Camrys and build different systems to double blind test people at shows.
> 
> Second thing I will do is buy a Mexican wrestling mask and Challenge El ****** to winner takes the 24 channel DSP amplifier combo.


you just won the lotto and your buying... camrys?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> you just won the lotto and your buying... camrys?


They are an amazing platform to build upon.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

chefhow said:


> They are an amazing platform to build upon.


So is a Bentley bentayga..

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

What would people be actually be willing to pay for something that resembles what's in Andys car? $3-4-5-6000?? Myself, and many others on here have more than that in Amps, HU's, processor, Ect in our cars already.. If you could get an absolute, all in one option, with that kind of processing, and channels of amplification, it could be considered a bargain.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> So is a Bentley bentayga..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Aye but how much does a Bentley A-pillar cost to replace if you **** it up..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Aye but how much does a Bentley A-pillar cost to replace if you **** it up..


I can't picture an a pillar being ****ed up beyond repair. In my 300, the pillars are made out of a brittle plastic that breaks with any amount of pressure. Before I made mine one was in 3 pieces and the other in two with holes in it. Both were easily fixed with some glass

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> I can't picture an a pillar being ****ed up beyond repair. In my 300, the pillars are made out of a brittle plastic that breaks with any amount of pressure. Before I made mine one was in 3 pieces and the other in two with holes in it. Both were easily fixed with some glass
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


My camrys clips break thr same way :/

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> My camrys clips break thr same way :/
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


The clips were snapped off as well. Also fixed. That's what the holes were from. Taking them off and the pillar comes off but the clip stays lol. I guess that's just part of having a 25 year old car

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

mmiller said:


> What would people be actually be willing to pay for something that resembles what's in Andys car? $3-4-5-6000?? Myself, and many others on here have more than that in Amps, HU's, processor, Ect in our cars already.. If you could get an absolute, all in one option, with that kind of processing, and channels of amplification, it could be considered a bargain.



I honestly don't see anyone making a 24 channel DSP. There are limited mounting options for something the size of the 24 channel prototype, lots of SUV and hatchbacks have tight installs and no trunk to speak of. It would make sense to make a 8-12 channel DSP that can be easily linked to another, digital link for audio, then a link for control/setup. I would not be surprised if that is where Audiofrog is really headed, and just did it all internally in one unit for the reveal. 

Helix DSP Pro with 10 channels runs around $1000, so wouldn't be surprised for a 12 channel with that more features and capability to run more.

Either way I am really interested in what Audiofrog releases.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Focused4door said:


> I honestly don't see anyone making a 24 channel DSP. There are limited mounting options for something the size of the 24 channel prototype, lots of SUV and hatchbacks have tight installs and no trunk to speak of. It would make sense to make a 8-12 channel DSP that can be easily linked to another, digital link for audio, then a link for control/setup. I would not be surprised if that is where Audiofrog is really headed, and just did it all internally in one unit for the reveal.
> 
> Helix DSP Pro with 10 channels runs around $1000, so wouldn't be surprised for a 12 channel with that more features and capability to run more.
> 
> Either way I am really interested in what Audiofrog releases.


12 would work!

As long as it had a capable center/surround processing ability (which is sorely lacking in the industry right now), 12 could do the job.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

fourthmeal said:


> 12 would work!
> 
> As long as it had a capable center/surround processing ability (which is sorely lacking in the industry right now), 12 could do the job.


Note that the center channel in Dolby PL II is just plain ol' mono.
Based on reading the Penteo documentation, it sounds like the Penteo center channel is (L+R) - (L-R). IE, it's the center channel with the sides removed. "hard center." 

I had to go digging in the spec to find out what's in there, there are some details in my thread

I think the main reason that this works is because the left and the right channel are attenuated.

IE, if the left channel and the center channel were running at 100%, it would create an image somewhere between the left channel and the center channel. But due to the fact that the center channel is louder, the image is 'pulled' towards the center.

Ideally you'd want to measure each of the three channels, EQ them so that they match each other, and then adjust the level of the center to achieve the best balance between a solid center image and stage width.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Note that the center channel in Dolby PL II is just plain ol' mono.
> Based on reading the Penteo documentation, it sounds like the Penteo center channel is (L+R) - (L-R). IE, it's the center channel with the sides removed. "hard center."
> 
> I had to go digging in the spec to find out what's in there, there are some details in my thread
> ...


I've absolutely become addicted to L7 in my cars. Specifically the flavor of L7 that Andy set up with the MS-8. It is so good, when it is done right. So long as there's solid stereo separation in the actual music, L7 processing "magically" gets it right on point. Horrible low-res music or music with a really bad stereo separation can sound bad, if not unlisten-able though. That type of music doesn't play in my system.


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## BBOYSTEVIE (May 2, 2005)

Pardon me for returning from the dead and for bringing this thread back from the dead. 

I've been out of car audio FOREVER (maybe 9-10 years, since the elitecaraudio.com days) and am just coming back looking to put together a tight SQ system. First thing I was happy to learn about was the nice new 2-3" midranges made for dashes/a-pillars and after that was happy to learn about these awesome new digital processors (I got out of this game while we were still waiting for the ID-one or whatever the Image Dynamics Processor was gonna be called, was being talked about) that are all in one solutions.

Then I see this new processor coming out. A solid center image from both seats! sign me up!!!! I don't care if amps are included or separate or what with this thing....I just want to know:

1. release date
2. price
3. are there crossovers and EQ in this thing or will a separate processor be needed for that?
4. Am I correct that this thing gets rid of the time alignment trade off situation? No time alignment required.


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## josby (May 8, 2011)

BBOYSTEVIE said:


> 1. release date
> 2. price
> 3. are there crossovers and EQ in this thing or will a separate processor be needed for that?
> 4. Am I correct that this thing gets rid of the time alignment trade off situation? No time alignment required.


I don't think a release date or price have been given. If you read through the JBL MS-8 processor thread, you'll see Andy Wehmeyer really got raked over the coals for the MS-8's release date getting delayed for years beyond what was first announced. After that experience, I don't think he's going to announce a date until this new unit is sitting on store shelves 

Pretty much all DSP's that have come out recently have crossover and EQ functionality in them. The MS-8 did, so I think it's almost guaranteed this will.

Assuming it's like the MS-8, you are correct - the time alignment for driver's side versus passenger side shouldn't be needed for frequencies the center speaker(s) can reproduce.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

BBOYSTEVIE said:


> Pardon me for returning from the dead and for bringing this thread back from the dead.
> 
> I've been out of car audio FOREVER (maybe 9-10 years, since the elitecaraudio.com days) and am just coming back looking to put together a tight SQ system. First thing I was happy to learn about was the nice new 2-3" midranges made for dashes/a-pillars and after that was happy to learn about these awesome new digital processors (I got out of this game while we were still waiting for the ID-one or whatever the Image Dynamics Processor was gonna be called, was being talked about) that are all in one solutions.
> 
> ...





josby said:


> I don't think a release date or price have been given. If you read through the JBL MS-8 processor thread, you'll see Andy Wehmeyer really got raked over the coals for the MS-8's release date getting delayed for years beyond what was first announced. After that experience, I don't think he's going to announce a date until this new unit is sitting on store shelves
> 
> Pretty much all DSP's that have come out recently have crossover and EQ functionality in them. The MS-8 did, so I think it's almost guaranteed this will.
> 
> Assuming it's like the MS-8, you are correct - the time alignment for driver's side versus passenger side shouldn't be needed for frequencies the center speaker(s) can reproduce.



Whats up Stevie!

No this would not get rid of the need to use time alignment. you will still need time alignment to correct difference between speaker locations. and realistically you will likely need to delay the center channel by instead of delaying it for one side, the measurement will to the center between the seats.


an the MS8 was planned WAY before the public knew about it and he announced it. Andy was running a Land rover Harman amplifier with the processing capabilities in his mini cooper in like 03 or 04.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Hey guys, I had the luck to enjoy a demo today.
This thing is awesome, not only it sounds great, I didn't expect less, but yeah the most impressive was when we swapped seats.
Because I started on driver side and sure everything was right were it should be, left to center to right etc. But it was the same once I was on the passenger seat! That was impressive.
Also the sound was pretty clean and sharp, the "only" sub gb10 and all gb60s around were impressive, clearly they all work together for the best.
And the sense of space that reminded me the L7.
I had the same tracks on my way back in my car and it was easy to spot the differences.
So really good feeling, more immerged in the music, makes me want to play again with my ms8 just for rears.
Also it might be a stretch to include it with the mini, dirac etc.

And of course it was really cool to meet Andy in real, the man behind so many items that I've built my experience on, the ms8, the 660 gti, all the GBs from 1" to 12", all the best posts here.
Nice talking about everything, thx again Andy


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

Elgrosso said:


> Hey guys, I had the luck to enjoy a demo today.
> 
> This thing is awesome, not only it sounds great, I didn't expect less, but yeah the most impressive was when we swapped seats.
> 
> ...




Andy's car is really fun to listen to. I'm patiently waiting on the release of this DSP. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Note that the center channel in Dolby PL II is just plain ol' mono.
> Based on reading the Penteo documentation, it sounds like the Penteo center channel is (L+R) - (L-R). IE, it's the center channel with the sides removed. "hard center."
> 
> I had to go digging in the spec to find out what's in there, there are some details in my thread
> ...


(L+R) - (L-R) = 2R

That doesn't work. lL+Rl - lL-Rl would do it, but there's no absolute value in analog. 

So, there are a bunch of ways to fake that. PL2 and L7 are matrix processors. That means, essentially, that depending on the computed steering angle, the volume of output channels is turned up and down so that the speaker occupying the area from which the sound should come is turned up and the others are turned down. A similar process is used for sides and rears. Information that's in phase between L and R is steered toward the front and information that's out of phase is steered toward the rear. All of this was designed to EXTRACT a surround encoded signal from a 2-channel medium and to enhance the performance of non encoded stereo signals (in algorithms after the original Dolby Surround). 

Much faster DSP processing makes a lot of this unnecessary if the upmixer doesn't have to DECODE a surround signal encoded into a 2-channel medium. I's possible in digital to compare the content of the channels in the digital signal to see what's common and what isn't common and in what proportion and to send that signal in some proportion to any number of speakers or channels designed to accommodate that space. Of course, that comparison and the attendant processing delays the signal, but for music that doesn't matter. For video, that's what "lip synch" is for. 

The link below explains some of these improvements to the original matrix processors which used VCAs as the level controls to make all of this work. Implementing the steering matrix and the level controls in a DSP is pretty straightforward for programmers. 

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/sur.pdf

The PENTEO algorithm is NOT a matrix processor and doesn't use phase to steer sounds to the back. I know this because PENTEO is the basis for Audiofrog's Multiseat Stereo and we've applied for a joint patent for it's implementation along with some additional processing and changes to the original controls for cars.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

fourthmeal said:


> I've absolutely become addicted to L7 in my cars. Specifically the flavor of L7 that Andy set up with the MS-8. It is so good, when it is done right. So long as there's solid stereo separation in the actual music, L7 processing "magically" gets it right on point. Horrible low-res music or music with a really bad stereo separation can sound bad, if not unlisten-able though. That type of music doesn't play in my system.


In the L7 in MS-8, the center signal is attenuated by 6dB in L and R.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Elgrosso said:


> Hey guys, I had the luck to enjoy a demo today.
> This thing is awesome, not only it sounds great, I didn't expect less, but yeah the most impressive was when we swapped seats.
> Because I started on driver side and sure everything was right were it should be, left to center to right etc. But it was the same once I was on the passenger seat! That was impressive.
> Also the sound was pretty clean and sharp, the "only" sub gb10 and all gb60s around were impressive, clearly they all work together for the best.
> ...


Yeah, nice meeting you, too.


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## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

Any word from the knowledge fest?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

manish said:


> Any word from the knowledge fest?


According to Andy the project is slow moving. There are many other more important things hes been working on

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

Like home audio LOL.
The home audio makes sense though. It's an easy venture considering he already has the speakers designed.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

like the successful 6x9 woofer! Woot!


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

I don't get how its slow moving when he alreadybhas a working prototype...

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## TerryGreen5986 (Jun 23, 2017)

Anytime u ask the guy personally, and he responds that if you’re looking to get a DSP (anytime soon), go ahead and get something else....

It’s safe to say it’s slow moving lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Jscoyne2 said:


> I don't get how its slow moving when he alreadybhas a working prototype...


Building a prototype probably isn't too hard as money isn't usually an issue, at least when compared to the concerns of mass production. But taking something and making it meet the needs of consumers at a price consumers are willing to pay is the huge challenge. 

Look at new game systems by Microsoft or Sony or any of the past systems. The companies lose money on each console at the beginning because of the cost of the components. It isn't until later that the cost of the components bring the price down where money can be made on the consoles. In the mean time, the console makers are making money off of the games and accessories to make it worthwhile, plus they spread the investment over the life of a console which is 5+ years now.

Back to Audiofrog, they have to be able to take a very powerful product, which is quite a bit more advanced than anything on the market. And Audiofrog won't likely be able to profit in any other way than selling the initial product. It won't be easy to get this to mass market where a Crutchfield type consumer is willing to part with their money. And really, as much as we would like it to be, the car audio market is a niche market and there isn't much money to be made if you cut out a large segment of that market by making it too expensive.


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## viking1 (Feb 23, 2019)

So it’s been almost 4 years now but still no multichannel device from Audiofrog. Anyone have any info on the status of this work at all? I wonder what the delay is. More generally, ai wonder why multichannel hasn’t been the standard in car audio already for ages. Seems like should be a game changer as soon as it’s available.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Multi-channel is in a lot of factory systems. Us types like to get rid of it due to sub par implementation, lack of control, and lack of stage presence.


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## viking1 (Feb 23, 2019)

That’s what I mean. Whenever someone actually releases a well implemented product it will sell like crazy.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

My money is on Minidsp

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## viking1 (Feb 23, 2019)

Well audiofrog apparently patented the best way but aren’t going to release anything? Or maybe MiniDSP will do something with a Dirac technology, which would be superior anyway ?

interesting thought. They’re not really a car audio company. Maybe the issue is that the car companies and/or suppliers like Harmon are trying to keep everything exclusiv, basically blocking us out.


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## viking1 (Feb 23, 2019)

Yup, looks like Harman has exclusive rights to Dirac. Guess that’s why we never get Dirac Unison or Dirac Panorama. They want to keep them luxury items that you can only get on $90,000 cars. Makes sense.


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## viking1 (Feb 23, 2019)

Profit margins on aftermarket, not to mention volume of sales, is peanuts in comparison.


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## asnatlas (Apr 4, 2021)

Any updates ?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

asnatlas said:


> Any updates ?


The original article is 7 years old. My guess is they ran into some difficulties that is preventing release. May be technical. May be legal. Who knows. I'm not holding my breath.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Andy just recently posted on Facebook about it and yes it's still coming. No commitment to when though. Numerous delays along the way and then covid and now apparently there's some kind of chip shortage too. He also mentioned at JBL with the MS-8 it took 8 years and a 100 person team. He's now doing it with significantly fewer and it's quite the undertaking aside from world issues. 12 channels is about all I'm sure of.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Surround sound in cars is a hard sell, people don't understand what it can do. Besides the spatial stuff, you can put speakers low in the doors/kicks (where they are supposed to be to minimize bad affects from the windows) and the rear surround speakers, if tuned right, can lift the sound stage, and minimize rainbow effect.

There is a processor that I think would work, 
Kicker Front Row

I'm sure there are DSP's that would do the job as well.

You only really need 4 speakers - a front set, and a rear set. 

Surround sound is one of the best upgrades there is for sound quality in a car.


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