# New ppi vs old ppi



## laextreme (Aug 9, 2011)

I recently took an interest in sq installs (only 18 coming from loud and don't care how it sounds lol) and I have been looking at the new ppi amps to put in my project 67camaro. I read on a few places their older stuff was good and used in quite a few sq installs but how does their newer amps compare in sound quality and build quality to the older stuff??


----------



## underdog (Jul 5, 2011)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/6545-considering-ppi-amps-but-whata-u-guys-think.html
Old news but hard to dig up for me.
DEI now owns ADST (ppi, orion, ads)

Your building a classic/antique American car.
My 2cents
I would only be looking at American made products.


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

That kind of like comparing a 67 camaro with a new Camaro.


----------



## RiLoWa (Nov 9, 2011)

FWIW, DEI sold the Precision Power brand to Epsilon. Epsilon Buys Precision Power From Directed - 2008-12-01 07:00:00 | TWICE

While I am familiar with Precision Power up to the 1997-98 Power Class, I am not familiar with many of the products after that. I did have a PC2300.2 once. I think that most of the class ab amps marketed by DEI were all similar designs, just overseas assembly. The new stuff from 2008 to now appear to be completely re-designed stuff and not similar (internally) to anything from the past.

I have been slightly interested in the new stuff also so consider me subscribed. Maybe somebody needs to do a shoot-out between old vs. new.


----------



## underdog (Jul 5, 2011)

Seen bigdwiz Old School Stereo is still going and loves getting packages.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

RiLoWa said:


> Maybe somebody needs to do a shoot-out between old vs. new.


I was thinking the same thing. 

BTW, fun question from the OP.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

RiLoWa said:


> Maybe somebody needs to do a shoot-out between old vs. new.


Come Spring 2012, we're going to start doing car amplifier repairs full time. Along with that, we'll have podcasts/videos and reviews of old and new designs. Unlike the usual reviews you find online, however, we'll have in-depth technical data surrounding the design and ABX listening sessions by trained ears. We'll hopefully get to the bottom of the arguments that old school is better. In some instances, it is clearly not - and we'll provide data to support that. 

Yep, this is an official announcement. Buried in a thread. Until I buy a Vendor membership, this is what you'll get.


----------



## laextreme (Aug 9, 2011)

underdog said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/6545-considering-ppi-amps-but-whata-u-guys-think.html
> Old news but hard to dig up for me.
> DEI now owns ADST (ppi, orion, ads)
> 
> ...


Yes you are correct it's an old muscle car but it will be anything but antique. It's going to have a full modern suspension and a ls3 out of a modern gto it's called a pro touring. Old school classic lines with new school handling and speed. Of this was a numbers matching restoration I would most definitely would be using American products.


----------



## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

envisionelec said:


> Come Spring 2012, we're going to start doing car amplifier repairs full time. Along with that, we'll have podcasts/videos and reviews of old and new designs. Unlike the usual reviews you find online, however, we'll have in-depth technical data surrounding the design and ABX listening sessions by trained ears. We'll hopefully get to the bottom of the arguments that old school is better. In some instances, it is clearly not - and we'll provide data to support that.
> 
> Yep, this is an official announcement. Buried in a thread. Until I buy a Vendor membership, this is what you'll get.



Ooooh...me likey


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Depending greatly what you want....
For me, there's some risk on using old school stuffs as you may need to recondition it back first....


----------



## bigdwiz (Oct 7, 2010)

*My thoughts on Old PPI vs. New PPI*



envisionelec said:


> Come Spring 2012, we're going to start doing car amplifier repairs full time. Along with that, we'll have podcasts/videos and reviews of old and new designs. Unlike the usual reviews you find online, however, we'll have in-depth technical data surrounding the design and ABX listening sessions by trained ears. We'll hopefully get to the bottom of the arguments that old school is better. In some instances, it is clearly not - and we'll provide data to support that.


This sounds AWESOME! I'm thinking of adding some tech segments to my videos using experts for analysis. I'm an enthusiast myself, and do not claim to have the expertise of someone like Aaron (envisionelec). I also do the oldschoolstereo thing as my 2nd job (not really a job, b/c at a job you make $$, LOL). Aaron has done some amp repairs for me in the past and his work is TOP NOTCH!!



> Seen bigdwiz Old School Stereo is still going and loves getting packages.


Thanks and yes, I enjoy showing off old school equipment for all to enjoy. I'm not one for claiming the old school stuff is "better", it's just what appeals to me. 




> For me, there's some risk on using old school stuffs as you may need to recondition it back first....


I agree with this statement. Many of the old school amps you'll pick up on eBay or other 2nd hand places, will need some reconditioning to be used in a daily driver. It is something to consider when deciding on old vs. new. I personally haven't tested any of the new PPI amps, so I can't offer an opinion here.


----------



## BumpaD_Z28 (Dec 12, 2011)

My '67 Camaro is getting a PPI PC450 ... 1999 era I believe 

Source unit MX-406 










~DaVe


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: My thoughts on Old PPI vs. New PPI*



bigdwiz said:


> This sounds AWESOME! I'm thinking of adding some tech segments to my videos using experts for analysis. I'm an enthusiast myself, and do not claim to have the expertise of someone like Aaron (envisionelec). I also do the oldschoolstereo thing as my 2nd job (not really a job, b/c at a job you make $$, LOL). Aaron has done some amp repairs for me in the past and his work is TOP NOTCH!!


Thank you, Dereck! I'm really excited about the opportunity to give people what they deserve - a quality repair without compromise. We're focusing on older amplifiers and still will not do the mega-watt Class D. 

I'm building a kick-ass test stand that cycles through multiple amplifiers (6 in this case) with linear and non-linear loads at phase angles from 0 to 90 degrees. It will produce all sorts of frequencies/pink noise and be connected to water-cooled dummy loads. During the test, a real-time diagnostic will be displayed that gives the idle input current, max current, output voltage and current and temperature per amplifier. If any of these exceeds a preset limit, the test is terminated. For now, it will just run from a PIC microcontroller without a printout, but later I'll have somebody write some code and get a PC attached to it so we can deliver some data. I'm sure we'll probably sell these things, too - as it is extremely useful to have an amplifier fully tested before shipping.

We're determined to be the best at this. We'll hire top talent to ensure that not only the amps are repaired correctly and quickly, but the logistics of shipping and customer service are handled professionally... It's bugged me for the better part of a decade that I've had to be less-than-responsive to my customers because of my day job quashing my time. This is going to change. 

Thanks again. I'm off to go work on more amps tonight.  Later!


----------



## Prime mova (Aug 17, 2011)

*Re: My thoughts on Old PPI vs. New PPI*



envisionelec said:


> I'm building a kick-ass test stand that cycles through multiple amplifiers (6 in this case) with linear and non-linear loads at phase angles from 0 to 90 degrees. It will produce all sorts of frequencies/pink noise and be connected to water-cooled dummy loads. During the test, a real-time diagnostic will be displayed that gives the idle input current, max current, output voltage and current and temperature per amplifier. If any of these exceeds a preset limit, the test is terminated. For now, it will just run from a PIC microcontroller without a printout, but later I'll have somebody write some code and get a PC attached to it so we can deliver some data. I'm sure we'll probably sell these things, too - as it is extremely useful to have an amplifier fully tested before shipping.
> 
> 
> > Great bit of science, It's about time we had an "Audio Einstein"  on these boards.
> ...


----------



## ewffan (Oct 20, 2005)

Power Class , PCX and DCX...liked them all. Great performers. Haven't tried the new stuff...


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

I liked PPI up to the PCX series, the rest seems like flea market.


----------



## laextreme (Aug 9, 2011)

So their new stuff isn't quality ? Man that sucks would have fit my application perfectly


----------



## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

laextreme said:


> So their new stuff isn't quality ? Man that sucks would have fit my application perfectly



You have to take online criticism of entire product lines with a large grain of salt. Do a little research and you might find some less biased opinions. The old school car audio crowd is very tough to please.


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

Well, it depends on how you define quality.

As with my 60's camaro to new Camaro analogy...

Some define quality as heavy-duty, well made, long lasting, built to last. Others define it as modern design, easy to use, efficient....

In this case, new PPI amps will still do a good job of amplifying your sound, which is ultimately what they are made to do, but how reliable and how long they will last is questionable...just like new cars (and pretty much everything made nowadays)


----------



## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

Many of the newer, class D amps put out significant power while being pretty efficient doing so. If planned properly, one can put together a very nice system without having to seriously upgrade alternators, batteries, etc... If I was looking at putting together a quality "hot rod" like you seem to be doing, the idea of using a few solid amps in a small package to round out the build without taking it over would appeal to me in many ways. That said, you are the ultimate consumer and need not impress anyone but yourself at the end of your build. Best of luck, looking forward to a build log.


----------



## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

The new PPI Power Class amplifiers seem like very nice amplifiers for the money. I have seen two articles involving listening tests or taking measurements that spoke highly of these. From layperson's point of view like mine, suffice to note that most amplifiers do not come with a parametric bass equalizer. These units do.


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rc10mike said:


> That kind of like comparing a 67 camaro with a new Camaro.


Agreed my friend. The 67 will always be a favorite and classic, but the new ones will smoke 'em. I have been asked this too many times. My answers vary depending on who I am talking to, but the reasoning is all the same... A company would be STUPID to make new amplifiers for a nostalgic brand that were worse in quality. The old amps were badass and some of the best available, FOR THAT TIME!!! The newer engineering and technologies of today far surpass...


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

RiLoWa said:


> FWIW, DEI sold the Precision Power brand to Epsilon. Epsilon Buys Precision Power From Directed - 2008-12-01 07:00:00 | TWICE
> 
> While I am familiar with Precision Power up to the 1997-98 Power Class, I am not familiar with many of the products after that. I did have a PC2300.2 once. I think that most of the class ab amps marketed by DEI were all similar designs, just overseas assembly. The new stuff from 2008 to now appear to be completely re-designed stuff and not similar (internally) to anything from the past.
> 
> I have been slightly interested in the new stuff also so consider me subscribed. Maybe somebody needs to do a shoot-out between old vs. new.



SEE?! Now there is a man who thinks! I would love to see the results of that. It would end of all of this "old rules, modern sucks" negligence...


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rc10mike said:


> I liked PPI up to the PCX series, the rest seems like flea market.


Reeeaaaalllly? That is all you got? What is it that you do not like? EXACTLY, what performance specs are not up to your standards? Or are you just talking out your backside and offering worthless and sensless opinions that are truly unjust because you have never used them?

Please explain. I would like some legit feedback as usual.


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

laextreme said:


> So their new stuff isn't quality ? Man that sucks would have fit my application perfectly


Let's see what his experience is with them. If somebody had bad things to say about my brands or anybody's brands, I want to hear their experiences, not just some ******** flying out of their mouth. Maybe he has a legit complaint and we sell a lot of product for now reason. Let's see before you go belly up and listen to statement with no meat...


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rc10mike said:


> Well, it depends on how you define quality.
> 
> As with my 60's camaro to new Camaro analogy...
> 
> ...


So by calling a product "flea market" what you are really saying is that you feel that older stuff is better because it is built better and is more durable? Hell, and all my life I thought that technology advanced and things got better. I had it all backwards? 

Again I ask, please divulge your experience with the new products and how it is inferior to old products. I honestly do want to hear about your experience that has proven this to you...


----------



## RiLoWa (Nov 9, 2011)

Grizz Archer said:


> SEE?! Now there is a man who thinks! I would love to see the results of that. It would end of all of this "old rules, modern sucks" negligence...


I was hoping that you would chime in and represent.

I'm not sure how an apples and apples comparison could be executed. My guess is that it would have to done with closest matching components, for example, a shoot out between my A404.2 from 1996 against the current PC400.4. Or what about a 4200AM against the PC400.4? 

Hell, while I am still in dream land how about a total shoot out 4200AM vs. A404vs. A404.2 vs PC450 vs. PC4400 vs. PC4400.2 and the new PC400.4 to see how they all stack up against each other????? I didn't include the _other_ company's equipment because I don't care about it.

Now who would have all of that gear to lend? I have a death grip on mine so.... not me.

Mr. Archer, when your company purchased Precision Power, did any museum pieces come with it?


----------



## RiLoWa (Nov 9, 2011)

kyheng said:


> Depending greatly what you want....
> For me, there's some risk on using old school stuffs as you may need to recondition it back first....


Agreed, some of the old amps I listed above certainly would need the heat sink compound and the electrolytic caps replaced before a good, thorough comparison test is conducted.


----------



## RiLoWa (Nov 9, 2011)

The only real opinion I have on the old vs. new is based on having been inside some old stuff and some of the new stuff. In my opinion, surface mount technology is not the best solution in every area.

For example, I would prefer to see through-hole mounted gate resistors on the power supply FETS merely because they can stand off the board and not cook the board/pads. I would also prefer to see through hole FET driver transistors (if used) as these sometimes like to bake the hell out of the board also. In the few amps I have worked on with damage in the power supply, there was consistently more destruction when SMT is used in power supply vs. through hole. Now that being said, this isn't 100%, even through hole can bake the hell out of a board too, but I have been able to save all of the ones I've encountered.


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

RiLoWa said:


> I was hoping that you would chime in and represent.
> 
> I'm not sure how an apples and apples comparison could be executed. My guess is that it would have to done with closest matching components, for example, a shoot out between my A404.2 from 1996 against the current PC400.4. Or what about a 4200AM against the PC400.4?
> 
> ...


I don't get a chance to search for topics I should get involved in, but a little birdy told me to check it out...

Anything close in power could make a good comparison as long as the person evaluating regulated them to have the same output. Your choices would be great.

No museum pieces, just the DEI current stock. I had such high hopes too. I would love some old Art for myself, and would definitely rick prison time by killing for Pro Mos! I want Pro Mos in my vehicle so bad, I can taste it. Preferrably just some 25s and maybe a 50, bout nothing big...


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

RiLoWa said:


> The only real opinion I have on the old vs. new is based on having been inside some old stuff and some of the new stuff. In my opinion, surface mount technology is not the best solution in every area.
> 
> For example, I would prefer to see through-hole mounted gate resistors on the power supply FETS merely because they can stand off the board and not cook the board/pads. I would also prefer to see through hole FET driver transistors (if used) as these sometimes like to bake the hell out of the board also. In the few amps I have worked on with damage in the power supply, there was consistently more destruction when SMT is used in power supply vs. through hole. Now that being said, this isn't 100%, even through hole can bake the hell out of a board too, but I have been able to save all of the ones I've encountered.


Fair enough. Is it safe to say that a better designed, modern topology that is more efficient could help to reduce your worries? I do not have a problem with through hole, in fact I can appreciate it the way that you do. The problem is that it costs more money and at that point I would wonder what is better between Asian labor or American labor. Obviously I would like to say American, but most of the time, that simply is not the case. If companies could sell product for half of the $/watt ratio they used to, we could entertain the thought of this, but do not even get me started on the online whores who were created by ourselves as we demand perfection for nothing, or at least as close to free as possible. We will never pay for what we demand...


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Grizz Archer said:


> I don't get a chance to search for topics I should get involved in, but a little birdy told me to check it out...
> 
> Anything close in power could make a good comparison as long as the person evaluating regulated them to have the same output. Your choices would be great.
> 
> No museum pieces, just the DEI current stock. I had such high hopes too. I would love some old Art for myself, and would definitely rick prison time by killing for Pro Mos! I want Pro Mos in my vehicle so bad, I can taste it. Preferrably just some 25s and maybe a 50, bout nothing big...


Grizz,
Let's do this.

I'll supply the Arts for testing (I insist on using my Arts because they've all been updated and reconditioned to good as new) and you come up with today's equivalent PPI amps and maybe the DEI's.
Anyone else want to jump in with the promos or other's, please chime in now.
Now all we need is an impartial testing facility, judge, and specific standards and benchmarks to use for the comparision.
Any suggestions on who and how?

Let's get to the truth about all of this and end the speculation because it's my belief that Grizz is right and the new stuff will surprise many. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

Grizz Archer said:


> but do not even get me started on the online whores who were created by ourselves as we demand perfection for nothing, or at least as close to free as possible. We will never pay for what we demand...


Many people will pay for what they demand, and will do so happily. The problem is that so few know what to expect or demand, so they get what is offered, and that is a product that makes the manufacturer a decent amount of money for a minimal amount of effort. Quite often the same goes for shops. The online "whores" are only slightly worse than a lot of shops that are more than happy to make a cheap sale since they can't really offer the expertise of a good car audio shop.


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Let's do this.
> 
> I'll supply the Arts for testing (I insist on using my Arts because they've all been updated and reconditioned to good as new) and you come up with today's equivalent PPI amps and maybe the DEI's.
> ...


I'm down. Who to test? No idea. Please note that I hope that did not intend to, in any way say, that the new or better or worse. I just hate when negligent people swear by something, just because it is American, or nostalgic, and then slam modern technology. If it were just a few people making themselves look like fools then I would not care. But there are insane amounts of these people and impressionable people can get false information by all of those prim donna know-it-alls that actually do not know ****. Know what I mean. I LOVE OLD SCHOOL stuff, but I do not think it iOS necessarily better or worse, just because I love it...

And I would still love to see a test between PPI, Zapco, Genesis, JBL, Soundstream and other high end amplifiers. Kind of like an old school monster sized SQ amp shoot out, only legit and totally non-biased. That would be sick.


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

dobslob said:


> Many people will pay for what they demand, and will do so happily. The problem is that so few know what to expect or demand, so they get what is offered, and that is a product that makes the manufacturer a decent amount of money for a minimal amount of effort. Quite often the same goes for shops. The online "whores" are only slightly worse than a lot of shops that are more than happy to make a cheap sale since they can't really offer the expertise of a good car audio shop.


Good point about shops being equally as offensive. By "Many", it would not be enough to cover a salary of a single person more than likely. Hell, I can appreciate the quality as much as the next guy and normally a lot more. But I still look for a rippin' deal online, so I am just as much part of the problem as everybody else...


----------



## RiLoWa (Nov 9, 2011)

Grizz Archer said:


> No museum pieces, just the DEI current stock. I had such high hopes too. I would love some old Art for myself, and would definitely rick prison time by killing for Pro Mos! I want Pro Mos in my vehicle so bad, I can taste it. Preferrably just some 25s and maybe a 50, bout nothing big...


Bummer  The next question would have been requesting pictures.

When the company I work for (non-12V related) bought an old trademark, it didn't come with any past products either. We had to buy everything second hand for display, but we did get most of the technical documents and some tooling.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Grizz Archer said:


> I'm down. Who to test? No idea. Please note that I hope that did not intend to, in any way say, that the new or better or worse. I just hate when negligent people swear by something, just because it is American, or nostalgic, and then slam modern technology. If it were just a few people making themselves look like fools then I would not care. But there are insane amounts of these people and impressionable people can get false information by all of those prim donna know-it-alls that actually do not know ****. Know what I mean. I LOVE OLD SCHOOL stuff, but I do not think it iOS necessarily better or worse, just because I love it...
> 
> And I would still love to see a test between PPI, Zapco, Genesis, JBL, Soundstream and other high end amplifiers. Kind of like an old school monster sized SQ amp shoot out, only legit and totally non-biased. That would be sick.


Grizz,
This sounds like fun.
Looks like we're going to have an old fashioned amp drag!

Let's work out the details that we can.
Which amp from your line do you want to run?
Definitely trying to keep it apples to apples so maybe a 2 channel?

Your call.

As for the judge, format, and testing, got any contacts in the magazine side of car audio that would be willing to do it?
Maybe even write an article about it?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

The guys at PAS Mag should be able to do this since they have access to an audio precision. I'm sure they could pull in some non-biased listeners for a ABX test too, just for grins. Since they already ran an old school versus new school article once, this would be a good way to expand upon it versus the subjective editorial that they initially ran.


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

yo Grizz i would give all my old school kicker gear for some new PPI goodness


----------



## The Wet 1 (Dec 4, 2011)

I would just like to add that any such test or comparison should be done completely *blindly* to the judge*s*.


And while I too am an old school person (I also have a 67 Camaro as well), I am thinking about not using my old school amps in my DD build due to size and more importantly weight. I just moved the three a/d/s amps I was going to use and realized they probably weight 40+ lbs and take up a lot of real estate. I might go with a couple of the newer PPI class D amps which would take up only a hair more space than just one PH15 and weight a fraction of the weight. I don't know how they would sound in comparison, but my guess is very few people could ever tell the difference while driving down the road...


----------



## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

new recondition, vs old as is vs NEW 

I wonder how my Alpha Audio PPI Art Series Imports would measure up?


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

rc10mike said:


> I liked PPI up to the PCX series, the rest seems like flea market.


Please explain yourself....we are waiting....:snacks:

....and it better be good...:laugh:


----------



## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

99% of the time is talking out of their a$$

I would rock a new ppi if I didn't have my Art or soon |TRU coppers.


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

starboy869 said:


> 99% of the time is talking out of their a$$.


x2.....exactly... the ass with teeth...


----------



## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

Grizz Archer said:


> Good point about shops being equally as offensive. By "Many", it would not be enough to cover a salary of a single person more than likely. Hell, I can appreciate the quality as much as the next guy and normally a lot more. But I still look for a rippin' deal online, so I am just as much part of the problem as everybody else...


I disagree. I deal with several shops that cater to those who really want great sounding audio, either already know what it takes to achieve it or are open to any education on the subject, and are willing to pay to get what they want. The best part is that these people, who are truly happy with their systems do an incredible job of spreading the word of great sound. Happy customers create a demand, and the shops that create the happy customers are able to continue spreading the word.

Meanwhile, shops that throw electronics in cars and make more noise continue to do so with similar results. Less profit and less quality with less satisfied less educated customers.


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

ChrisB said:


> The guys at PAS Mag should be able to do this since they have *access to an audio precision*. I'm sure they could pull in some non-biased listeners for a ABX test too, just for grins. Since they already ran an old school versus new school article once, this would be a good way to expand upon it versus the subjective editorial that they initially ran.


I am buying one in the Spring.


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Let's do this.
> 
> I'll supply the Arts for testing (I insist on using my Arts because they've all been updated and reconditioned to good as new) and you come up with today's equivalent PPI amps and maybe the DEI's.
> ...


A thorough small and large signal analysis of the amplifier is mandatory so that the whole picture can be seen. While you may be ready to start some testing, I maintain that a misunderstanding of the mechanisms that cause poor sound may be overlooked.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Just a quick post to show that *In My Honest Opinion*, old PPI *Arts* (not ProMos or other) while built like tanks that last for years, are overrated... 
Many talk about how dynamic sounding their system sounds but I don't see why. Here's a test I got from a mag that tested the A100, A300, A600 and the 2150M - the one with the most dynamic headroom is not necessarily the biggest one  

Here's a pic showing the dynamic headroom with an 40ms burst test: 








^ PPI x 4 (test @ 2 ohm) on the Left and 2 other amps (tested @ 1 ohm) on the right to show how high it can be  

I've seen tests (although @ 4 ohm + 40ms burst) from Audison and Hertz entry level showing the same kind of results of +1dB of dynamic headroom. 

Kelvin


----------



## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

dobslob said:


> The online "whores" are only slightly worse than a lot of shops that are more than happy to make a cheap sale since they can't really offer the expertise of a good car audio shop.


I agree but tend to flip the evil from one side to the other.
When someone buys from an online shop, they usually have done their online homework, and read tons of online reviews and used the collective anacdotal experience of online users to form a decnetly educated opinion. When they buy from the online stores they are not relying on them for information or opinion. Just a means of purchase, with of corse a risk of waranty suppport.
When a customer goes in to a shop they usualy (not always though) rely on the shop owner or commission based employee to inform and educate them about the products that the shops sell. Commission based motivation and slanted biased opinon are all too commonly spouted as truth and scientific fact just to get a sale.
Granted they may offer a better waranty, but from my experience, there are way more hacks out there than there are reputable shops..

Having online retailers, (imo) forces the shops to step up their game allowing the better ones to surface, and the hacks to fade away.. (in therory)

ANT


----------



## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

A whole lot of that anecdotal evidence is simply passed on and has no basis, let alone truth. Sure, the online guys will sell anything, just like a poor stereo shop. It takes someone with a real understanding of acoustics, especially with consideration of the automotive environment, as well as the ability to let the customer listen with their own ears to educate the consumer and provide them with the experience they desire. Good luck getting that with an online purchase.

The information from an "expert" online may be nothing more than the relayed message that an amp puts out a ton of power and sounds better than anything else they have ever heard. That could be the truth, or it could be the opinion of a kid who just hooked up his first amp and knows it puts out a ton of power because his headlights are dimming so much when the bass hits. Maybe it is the first system a person has heard besides the cheap ass earbuds that came with his iPod. Maybe all the person did is relay the message of the previous reviewer.

I know few shops that bother to actually measure the output of amplifiers, chances are there are even fewer people running the tests themselves at home. I know of few shops that will build multiple enclosures for one install to try to improve the sound of the sub bass, chances are there are even fewer people doing the same. This could go on and on. The whole point is that taking the review of someone online as truth makes sense only when you have the ability to confirm for yourself and should be done cautiously, and the same goes for buying from a local shop. Don't just buy because it is there, make sure it is what you want and need. Make sure it will do the job you want it to do and work with the rest of your system.

I tend not to offer too much online as far as reviews, but when I do it comes from a guy who has owned, installed, tuned, and listened to and judged thousands of systems. Still, I wouldn't want someone to buy based on what I say, I would want them to become interested enough to seek out the particular components of a system that they are interested in and touch, see and listen to them to become their own judges. Once people do more of this, they will have more experience and education as to what they would like. This is what leads to better products and gets us back to the point of people actually being willing to pay for what they demand, and demanding more because they understand it's value.


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

Grizz Archer said:


> So by calling a product "flea market" what you are really saying is that you feel that older stuff is better because it is built better and is more durable? Hell, and all my life I thought that technology advanced and things got better. I had it all backwards?
> 
> Again I ask, please divulge your experience with the new products and how it is inferior to old products. I honestly do want to hear about your experience that has proven this to you...


Technology does advance over time, hence my 67 Camaro and new Camaro analogy. 

As for the "flea market" comment. Notice I said the word "seem" and not the word "is". (most of the new PPI stuff is pretty hideous looking)

My point is, modern tech can be superior, and maybe cheaper, but better is only determined by how one defines quality.


----------



## Grizz Archer (Apr 3, 2009)

rc10mike said:


> Technology does advance over time, hence my 67 Camaro and new Camaro analogy.
> 
> As for the "flea market" comment. Notice I said the word "seem" and not the word "is". (most of the new PPI stuff is pretty hideous looking)
> 
> My point is, modern tech can be superior, and maybe cheaper, but better is only determined by how one defines quality.


Aesthetics is purely subjective.

I'll buy your last statement, to a point. So, if you think they are hideous, in which I respect your opinion, is it that that defines quality which makes them flea market material. If I were a newbie on this forum, looking for opinions on products, your opinion might scare me me away. But all because you do not like the way they look? Have you ever used any of the new product since we bought the brand from DEI and revamped the entire line?


----------



## laextreme (Aug 9, 2011)

Wow no idea I would spark such a large response. I would love to see the test of new vs old amps. Sounds like a great idea


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> Just a quick post to show that *In My Honest Opinion*, old PPI *Arts* (not ProMos or other) while built like tanks that last for years, are overrated...


That's because of their regulated power supplies and sufficient rail capacitance. Did you (everyone else) know that excessive headroom is actually indicative of a poorly designed power supply?


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Grizz Archer said:


> Aesthetics is purely subjective.
> 
> I'll buy your last statement, to a point. So, if you think they are hideous, in which I respect your opinion, is it that that defines quality which makes them flea market material. If I were a newbie on this forum, looking for opinions on products, your opinion might scare me me away. But all because you do not like the way they look? Have you ever used any of the new product since we bought the brand from DEI and revamped the entire line?



I think the opinions are formed from the idea that since Epsilon owns the brand and the amplifiers began to be built like a Power Acoustik (for better or worse) rather than the familiar types, the quality suffered. I would personally enjoy trying a new one in my upcoming comparison videos.


----------



## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

If I hadn't already bought a pair of 2011 Boston GTA amps, I would be all over a pair of the new PPI Power series amps! The 4 channel can do a true bandpass by itself. Most amps can't.


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Danometal said:


> If I hadn't already bought a pair of 2011 Boston GTA amps, I would be all over a pair of the new PPI Power series amps! The 4 channel can do a true bandpass by itself. Most amps can't.


Are you the same guy that bought some Massive Audio speakers over a pair of HAT speakers...

Sell the Massive and Boston, then get what you really want


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

envisionelec said:


> That's because of their regulated power supplies and sufficient rail capacitance. *Did you (everyone else) know that excessive headroom is actually indicative of a poorly designed power supply?*


Yep... You told me before  And reading a bit, it seems like the more sag there is (small wave on the side of the big peaks) = oscillation of the power supply = poorly designed power supply... 

The two amps on the right are high-current design <-- might be the reason for their enormous headroom... and as said above ^ the bottom one has a really strong and well designed power supply. 

Kelvin


----------



## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> Are you the same guy that bought some Massive Audio speakers over a pair of HAT speakers...
> 
> Sell the Massive and Boston, then get what you really want


Well, yea, but it's more complicated than that.

I have already been running a Boston GTA mono amp on my sub, so it made the most financial sense to get a matching 4 channel (I REALLY like matching amps). Then, after I auditioned some Imagines, I called sonicelectronix to cancel my order for the Massives, but it was too late. I would've had to return them to get my money back, so I just rolled with it.

Besides, I was hoping for a bit stronger midbass from the Imagines, and the Massives supposedly deliver on that. We'll see.

And, before I get too far off topic, I would love to hear some new school PPI subs and speakers!!


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> Yep... You told me before  And reading a bit, it seems like the more sag there is (small wave on the side of the big peaks) = oscillation of the power supply = poorly designed power supply...
> 
> The two amps on the right are high-current design <-- might be the reason for their enormous headroom... and as said above ^ the bottom one has a really strong and well designed power supply.
> 
> Kelvin


I was talking to everyone _*but*_ you. Thus the "everyone else" parenthetical statement.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

envisionelec said:


> I was talking to everyone _*but*_ you. Thus the "everyone else" parenthetical statement.


lol... I guess I read too fast 

Kelvin


----------



## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

laexteme - if you're still following this thread, please be sure and do a build log on your 67... I'm building a 69 Camaro also in the pro-touring style and am interested in what ideas you come up with.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

I forgot to post back on this thread.
Sorry about that.
Anyway, Grizz and I have been pming over this head to head old vs. new and we're working out the details so we can actually compare one of his new school to one of my old school.

I am leaning towards putting up my 1996 PPI Art A600.2 against his 2011 PPI Phantom P600.2.
The more I looked into it, they seem to have the closest specs for a head to head.

Grizz is hip deep in CES right now, so any additional progress will be weeks away.

Stay tuned.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## marvnmars (Dec 30, 2011)

I have an older ppi pc 4800 i will gladly ship for the testing. The heads up testing is somethng I have wanted to know for years. I wish I still had my old carver amps.. I hope to see some comparison of the newer class D stuff to the old school amps too.


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Interesting developments lately in this thread. I think a direct a/b comparison between "classic" and new PPI would be a huge benefit to everyone, not just PPI fans. 
I know Rockford did a comparison between their original Punch 45 and their 25 to Life reissue. The newer version blew the old school Punch out of the water but, may have been built to do just that as a selling point. 
Unfortunately, it may be hard to find several PPI models that would result in a fair and 1 to 1 comparison. The 600.2 Art and newer 600.2 Phantom would be the obvious starting point. For the comparo to be scientific though the Art would need to be in new or 'like new' condition I would think.


----------



## RiLoWa (Nov 9, 2011)

Just because the power rating may be similar comparing a Phantom 600.2 vs the old Art A600.2, it sets up a class D vs. class AB apples and oranges comparison to me.

The new PC650.2 vs. an old A600.2 makes more sense to me and the power rating isn't any more dissimilar than the Phantom 600.2 is. 

I have a bit of interest in the PC740.5 which would be solid competition to an A404.2 / A200.2 (bridged) _or_ an A404.2 / A300.2 (bridged) combo.

If Mr. Archer is still in Vegas on the 14th, maybe he can leave one of those with me to compare them for a few years (intensive research)  as I will be arriving there for another show.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

PPI_GUY said:


> For the comparo to be scientific though the Art would need to be in new or 'like new' condition I would think.


Mark,
I've got that covered. 
It's all ready to go.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

RiLoWa said:


> Just because the power rating may be similar comparing a Phantom 600.2 vs the old Art A600.2, it sets up a class D vs. class AB apples and oranges comparison to me.
> 
> The new PC650.2 vs. an old A600.2 makes more sense to me and the power rating isn't any more dissimilar than the Phantom 600.2 is.
> 
> ...


Isn't that what this is all about?
Today vs. yesterday?
Yesterday's way of amplification vs. today's way of accomplishing the same task?
I.E. class ab vs. class d?

I think the results will be fascinating to say the least. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Mark,
> I've got that covered.
> It's all ready to go.
> 
> ...


Cool Bret. I should have known "the stig" would be on top of things. 
I'm with you. Even though it's class d versus class a/b, that's part of the jump in technology from old school to present. Although a followup with a Art 600.2 vs. a newer PC 650.2 might be worth the trouble as well.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

PPI_GUY said:


> Cool Bret. I should have known "the stig" would be on top of things.
> I'm with you. Even though it's class d versus class a/b, that's part of the jump in technology from old school to present. Although a followup with a Art 600.2 vs. a newer PC 650.2 might be worth the trouble as well.


Mark,
Sounds like a good match as well.
Let's see what Grizz posts once he recovers from CES overload. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

RiLoWa said:


> Just because the power rating may be similar comparing a Phantom 600.2 vs the old Art A600.2, it sets up a class D vs. class AB apples and oranges comparison to me.
> 
> 
> The new PC650.2 vs. an old A600.2 makes more sense to me and the power rating isn't any more dissimilar than the Phantom 600.2 is.


I disagree, makes for an even better comparison since everything is going class D these days...


----------



## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

Why not test both. I'm interested in seeing how they both will compare.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

wdemetrius1 said:


> Why not test both. I'm interested in seeing how they both will compare.


That's up to Grizz.
It going to cost us both out of pocket to get this done.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## JPOSEY (Nov 9, 2011)

PPI_GUY said:


> Interesting developments lately in this thread. I think a direct a/b comparison between "classic" and new PPI would be a huge benefit to everyone, not just PPI fans.
> I know Rockford did a comparison between their original Punch 45 and their 25 to Life reissue. The newer version blew the old school Punch out of the water but, may have been built to do just that as a selling point.
> Unfortunately, it may be hard to find several PPI models that would result in a fair and 1 to 1 comparison. The 600.2 Art and newer 600.2 Phantom would be the obvious starting point. For the comparo to be scientific though the Art would need to be in new or 'like new' condition I would think.


They also compared their run of the mill Punch series amps to some of the older DSM amps and the newer Punch amps blew them away, in power and price.


----------



## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That's up to Grizz.
> It going to cost us both out of pocket to get this done.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR



For the sake of the forum, I'm sure that we would be willing to chip in, on the cost of shipping to see a wider view of amps tested.


----------



## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

Any updates?


----------



## GioSS (Jan 26, 2008)

I am so interested in this old vs new... Make it happen guys.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Working on it.
No one wants to do it for fun of it. 

FTR, I am working many different angles trying to put this all together.
Stay tuned.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Navy Chief (Jun 14, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Let's do this.
> 
> I'll supply the Arts for testing (I insist on using my Arts because they've all been updated and reconditioned to good as new) and you come up with today's equivalent PPI amps and maybe the DEI's.
> ...


I will offer up my 2350DM for testing. It was Bruce McMillen's first go at the RIPS technology the same design that the JL slash amps now use. It was just rebuilt by Aaron at Envision and freshly re-furbished with a new subtle look for the new millenium. In the shoot out in 91' it made almost 800 watts and in theory should be able to do that at either 4 or 8 ohm load. Anyone want to start a telethon to ship these behemoths for testing, mine weighs 23lbs. I am all about old school PPI, however I did have to upgrade to a 200 amp alternator to run my A1200 and 2350DM together.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...50dm-a1200-artwork-using-laser-engraving.html


----------



## carfreak1024 (Aug 17, 2010)

I have a PPI ProMos 2300M, that i would have loved for you guys to test out in the comparison as well, but i live in the Caribbean and i think shipping to america might be enough to get me a new amp, lol.

I have a few amps in my collection from full range class D's to old school stuff from US Amps and PPI, and i have to say that the ProMos is by far my favourite, it just sounds different that anything else that i have ever heard and it has never been refurbished. Now that i am thinking about it, the amp is older than i am, lol!


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Working on it.
> It's not just the cost of the shipping back and forth, it's the cost of paying the testing expert for his time.
> No one wants to do it for fun of it.
> 
> ...


How much are you talking?


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

envisionelec said:


> How much are you talking?


Not sure yet.
We're in the e-mailing back and forth stage trying to work this out.

Stay tuned.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

carfreak1024 said:


> I have a PPI ProMos 2300M, that i would have loved for you guys to test out in the comparison as well, but i live in the Caribbean and i think shipping to america might be enough to get me a new amp, lol.
> 
> I have a few amps in my collection from full range class D's to old school stuff from US Amps and PPI, and i have to say that the ProMos is by far my favourite, it just sounds different that anything else that i have ever heard and it has never been refurbished. Now that i am thinking about it, the amp is older than i am, lol!


Just alittle correction. I think you have a Mosfet Series 2300M rather than a *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet 2300M. It seems like a small distinction but, the Pro Mos series were stable to 1 ohm stereo(and below if done carefully) and 2 ohm bridged mono. The 2300M wasn't bridgeable. 
As far as I know the Pro Mos Series only included models 12, 25, 50, 425 and 450.
The Mosfet Series was only stable to 2 ohm stereo and 4 ohm bridged mono. 
Both are excellent series and my favorite PPI amps of all time.


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

PPI_GUY said:


> Just alittle correction. I think you have a Mosfet Series 2300M rather than a *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet 2300M. It seems like a small distinction but, the Pro Mos series were stable to 1 ohm stereo(and below if done carefully) and 2 ohm bridged mono. The 2300M wasn't bridgeable.
> As far as I know the Pro Mos Series only included models 12, 25, 50, 425 and 450.
> The Mosfet Series was only stable to 2 ohm stereo and 4 ohm bridged mono.
> Both are excellent series and my favorite PPI amps of all time.



That's correct. It also does not use any form of R.I.P.S. technology where the power supply monitors primary-side current. The 2300M has a full bridge power supply with no active current monitoring. It's a great design, nonetheless.


----------



## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Not sure yet.
> We're in the e-mailing back and forth stage trying to work this out.
> 
> Stay tuned.
> ...



I just acquired a calibrated HP/Agilent 8903B Audio Analyzer system (came down between this and the Audio Precision...I chose HP). If you hit a roadblock, I might be able to help you out.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

envisionelec said:


> I just acquired a calibrated HP/Agilent 8903B Audio Analyzer system (came down between this and the Audio Precision...I chose HP). If you hit a roadblock, I might be able to help you out.


Oh my, I can already hear a certain group of people complaining about how their amps measure bad BUT are made for people who actually listen to music.:laugh:


----------



## carfreak1024 (Aug 17, 2010)

wow, the whole time i thought i had a pro mos thanks for letting me know whats up guys, thought it was weird when i never saw it in the pro mos manual! lol


----------



## carfreak1024 (Aug 17, 2010)

also guys when yall service older amps, what do you guys change, stuff like the wires on the inside and the caps and so on?


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

carfreak1024 said:


> also guys when yall service older amps, what do you guys change, stuff like the wires on the inside and the caps and so on?


This thread might help answer your question. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eries-2-amplifier-reconditioning-repairs.html

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Jonny Hotnuts (Mar 15, 2011)

Not that I am advocating this (*to the OS) but another test between these amps after normal testing, would be to hook them up to a very low load and run them wide open until the first one smokes. 

The reason I say this is because I truly feel that young people getting into CA today wont have an old school of there own.....because like all Chinese made electronics of today, last about 4-5 years max then quit or catch fire. 

~JH


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Jonny Hotnuts said:


> Not that I am advocating this (*to the OS) but another test between these amps after normal testing, would be to hook them up to a very low load and run them wide open until the first one smokes.
> 
> The reason I say this is because I truly feel that young people getting into CA today wont have an old school of there own.....because like all Chinese made electronics of today, last about 4-5 years max then quit or catch fire.
> 
> ~JH




Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Dubstep (Apr 7, 2010)

There is no Old skool PPI vs New PPI.....Old skool with a fresh set of caps will win all day every day!


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Dubstep said:


> There is no Old skool PPI vs New PPI.....Old skool with a fresh set of caps will win all day every day!


It won't win everything though: 
- price? New Phantom 
- size? New Phantom 
- efficiency? New Phantom 
- power density? New Phantom 
- Xover variety? New Phantom 

There's more but I would like to let you think about it  

Kelvin


----------



## Apollos2 (Jul 30, 2011)

I think some folks would pitch in for the shipping. How much would it cost, have you boxed it up and taken it to UPS or Fedex or Post office yet to get a ballpark figure. 

You know you gotta box the crap out of them and buy insurance too.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> It won't win everything though:
> - price? New Phantom
> - size? New Phantom
> - efficiency? New Phantom
> ...


Yeah, but that nostalgia factor is HARD to overcome. After all, it took me a couple of years to open my mind... and close my wallet!:laugh:

Then again, there is one amplifier company existing today that qualifies following the evolutionary design from PPI to Xtant and now JL Audio. IIRC, all those companies have one person in common and that person is Bruce MacMillan.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Ok, I've exhausted all my options and leads.
After many months and e-mails, none of them paid off.
The one's that would consider it don't have the equipment and the one's that have the equipment aren't interested.
Unless something else pops up, this isn't going to happen.

The days of a full spec analysis and sound quality opinion write up in the old car audio magazines are long over.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## ahardb0dy (Feb 19, 2012)

I'd be willing to ship my 5075DX where ever as long as you can get "the Stig" to fix it first!! LOL


----------



## Apollos2 (Jul 30, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Ok, I've exhausted all my options and leads.
> After many months and e-mails, none of them paid off.
> The one's that would consider it don't have the equipment and the one's that have the equipment aren't interested.
> Unless something else pops up, this isn't going to happen.
> ...


 Wow, that's kind of sad. Seems to me like something would open up at some point. Willing to wait.......:juggle:


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Maybe Grizz had better luck than I did however, I have not heard from him on this matter.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> Yeah, but that nostalgia factor is HARD to overcome. After all, it took me a couple of years to open my mind... and close my wallet!:laugh:
> 
> Then again, there is one amplifier company existing today that qualifies following the evolutionary design from PPI to Xtant and now JL Audio. IIRC, all those companies have one person in common and that person is Bruce MacMillan.


Agree completely. I am closer to closing the wallet for additional old school car audio equipment myself. In fact, I am rethinking the whole concept of overpaying for new equipment as well. While I will always be a fan of older equipment, the new stuff is passing it by in so many areas. 

Honestly, I can't justify paying the prices asked for so-called boutique amplifiers. There are plenty of options out there for the masses and most consumers couldn't tell the difference in a blind listening test between a Audison and a Soundstream amp anyway, especially in the auto environment.

GREAT point about Bruce MacMilllan. It's hard to imagine a more influential innovator over the past 3-4 decades in car audio.


----------



## Navy Chief (Jun 14, 2010)

Well unfortunately I am pulling my offer to make my 2350DM available for testing, it is getting installed this week.


----------

