# New Victory Sonics 2x400 hybrid amplifier.



## Victor_inox

case using solid wood endcaps with aluminum housing.
building for a client.
Using 400W Hypex modules this time with SMPS1200A400 Power supply.
bench testing went well, some serious kick these modules has. Tube up front to sweeten sound.


----------



## Victor_inox

View attachment 98337


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Guest

Victor....

LOVE THIS DESIGN.... !

MORE...


----------



## Victor_inox

Commercially available amplifier using 180W modules and no tube front stage cost at about 2 grand.Genesys is one example. I can make this one much less expensive. whole thing is scalable to whatever number of channels desired. 
I`m making it in between car audio amps and pres orders on free time. Also making 1kilowatt power supply for -+ 95Volt rails. 700W UcD modules require that voltage.
102db s/n ratio on the bench. In other words is`t noise free to the point of freaking me out that it`s dead when there no signal present. Only if I place my ear directly on twitter I can hear something present.


----------



## Guest

Very nice sir...

What's the footprint of the 2 channel above ?


----------



## Victor_inox

SQ_TSX said:


> Very nice sir...
> 
> What's the footprint of the 2 channel above ?


12x6.75x2.5


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> Commercially available amplifier using 180W modules and no tube front stage cost at about 2 grand.



Actually more like 1/4 of that. I actually know of a model with two UcD180s and 12v trigger for $300 shipped on closeout. If I either order one more or decide not to I'll say more  (they are perfect little amps for home audio height speakers.)

There's also the Rogue Audio Sphinx integrated, which wastes the Hypex UcD180 modules with a stupid glorified lightbulb in the signal path but costs like $1300 not 2k. And includes phono preamp. For 2k there's NAD with Ncore not UcD...


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> Actually more like 1/4 of that. I actually know of one with two UcD180s and 12v trigger for $300 shipped on closeout. If I either order one more or decide not to I'll say more


 If you don`t want to share why you posted it then?
Each 180 module 100 Euro from Hypex directly, what you saying is hard to believe unless it`s counterfeit. Should be a catch of some sort. 
12V trigger is not 12V power supply isn`t it?


----------



## Brian_smith06




----------



## Victor_inox

Brian_smith06 said:


>


It`s nice to put a face to forum ID Brian.:laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox

Put one in decent case and price shoot through the roofPilliod Audio UcD200M (pair) 200 watt Mono Amplifiers Hypex Technology NEW!!!!


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> If you don`t want to share why you posted it then?


I will share once I decide my own course of action. I just found your inflated number insulting. 




Victor_inox said:


> IEach 180 module 100 Euro from Hypex directly,


Not in quantity...



Victor_inox said:


> what you saying is hard to believe unless it`s counterfeit. Should be a catch of some sort.


Not really. Well-regarded European "high end" company with a broad product line, long-established US support, and multiple storefront and online dealers. 

(The catch is that it's a current closeout. MSRP is 500)



Victor_inox said:


> 12V trigger is not 12V power supply isn`t it?



No, it's a turn on/off mechanism.


----------



## Guest

I've always found Victor very fair in my dealings with him....


----------



## Victor_inox

Seeing is believing. until i do I`ll stick to what I`ve seen. thank you for your opinion.

As of bulk pricing from hypex, you have to buy into thousands of pieces to get appreciable discount. Same with other manufacturers.

it`s entirely possible that whatever company discounting them bought too many to sell and liquidating stock now for their cost or bellow.
If that deal exist it should be posted in Very HOT Deals.


----------



## Victor_inox

SQ_TSX said:


> I've always found Victor very fair in my dealings with him....


 Likewise sir.
I`m not even selling anything here, yet someone get offended by my overinflated price...:laugh:

I`d love to see completed UcD180 based amplifier for $500 .
DS-21 saying that is MSRP.
Where? I ca`t find it. I can`t even find it for twice that. 
Perhaps my internet searching abilities sucks.. Someone help a brother here point me in the right direction.


----------



## DS-21

I dropped a few hints above.

Anyone with a Prime account can get one day after tomorrow for MSRP ($500) and any applicable sales tax on Amazon. 

The closeout seller has free shipping too, but not 2-day.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> I dropped a few hints above.
> 
> Anyone with a Prime account can get one day after tomorrow for MSRP ($500) and any applicable sales tax on Amazon.
> 
> The closeout seller has free shipping too, but not 2-day.


 point it already. I have amazon Prime and gold deal emails from them didn`t see anything like that.


----------



## DS-21

OK, guys, here goes. The amp in question is the Pro-Ject Amp Box DS. Here's a gut shot:










(The PS is a separate box.)

Interestingly, they charge the same for the monobloc (1x UcD180) and the stereo amp. (The monobloc makes a little more power because it has the same PS.)

Music Direct currently has it on closeout for $299 shipped: Pro-Ject Amp Box DS Power Amp at Music Direct

It's available on Amazon from a third party (Hidef Lifestyle) for $499 with Prime shipping as well.

I used the previous version (Amp Box SE) as my desktop amp for years, though now I run active with miniDSP PWR-ICE125 amps.


----------



## Victor_inox

OK thanks, I need to do some reading now, looks like they used OEM module in there .
Nowhere I can find hypex reference.
i bought one. As soon as it`s delivered I`ll review it here. 
300 with free shipping and 60 days return policy, what do I have to lose, right?


----------



## DS-21

It's a damn amp. It has a low noise floor, flat frequency response into any practical load, and otherwise no sound at all. There's nothing really to "review" unless you just want make stuff up and cause smart people to question your critical listening skills.


----------



## Victor_inox

What's up with attitude? 
Chill ducking out sir.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

That's how genuine hypex ucd 180 HG looks like. Picture you posted looks different. So I bought one to check for myself. That reviews I'll be posting. 
You obviously too smart to read other people reviews. 
Thank you for your insight and please stop bitching in my thread,make your own.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Niebur3

You have to realize DS-21 is ALWAYS right.


----------



## Victor_inox

Thanks jerry,now I know.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## soccerguru607

Can't deal with stubborn jealous people. Wasting your time.


----------



## knever3

Looks awesome to me, just to be clear this is a 400 watt x2 amp you are making? If it is that's certainly small and can it be bridged? I am really curious on the results, not just the output wattage. If you look at the other amp posted the channel separation was only <-40db! It reminds me of an old Sinfoni 45.2 amp.


----------



## Victor_inox

soccerguru607 said:


> Can't deal with stubborn jealous people. Wasting your time.


 i`m as stubborn as they get, i stubbornly reject ******** when i see one even if it cost me money. 

Client i made that amplifier for is happy and that what i`m working for, not approval of some internet user i know nothing about to respect.

Perhaps Pro-ject struck a deal with Hypex and indeed use cheaper Oem modules in their amps. that i`m about to find out once it`s delivered to my door.


----------



## Victor_inox

knever3 said:


> Looks awesome to me, just to be clear this is a 400 watt x2 amp you are making? If it is that's certainly small and can it be bridged? I am really curious on the results, not just the output wattage. If you look at the other amp posted the channel separation was only <-40db! It reminds me of an old Sinfoni 45.2 amp.


 Thank you! 400x2 is correct. 
it can not be bridged as it completely separate amplifiers with common power supply in one case. therefore separation can not be a problem even as theoretical problem. If you so inclined you can parallel outputs effectively increasing current twice. I don`t see practical application of that but your intentions unknown to me. 

You do realize that this particular amp is for 120V household power not car audio... I do make same amp for car voltage. but that would be different topic.


----------



## knever3

I figured it would be for home use based on the topic location. I am shocked to see the small transformer for the amp though. It must run at a very high frequency to be that small, not just 60hz. I am used to seeing those huge transformers for home use. I was researching those modules when I ran across a DIY project using those Hypex modules.

Mike Andrews: Building a diycable.com Hypex UcD400 Amplifier Kit


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> That's how genuine hypex ucd 180 HG looks like. Picture you posted looks different. So I bought one to check for myself. That reviews I'll be posting.
> You obviously too smart to read other people reviews.
> Thank you for your insight and please stop bitching in my thread,make your own.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk



Yes, it is a UcD180 module. If you could read properly you will see I never added the letters "HG" to the module name. The module Pro-Ject uses is clearly visible on Hypex's website for anyone competent in searching. The Hypex 2.100 plate amp uses the same module. 

And yes, I am too smart to read "reviews" of sonically transparent commodity parts. By that I simply mean "I am not a deaf idiot." At one point deaf idiots were relatively rare on DIYMA, though the forum has endured a rise in pitiful and functionally deaf sales-hacks. 

The only advantages the Hypex Pro-Ject has over, say, a Parasound Zamp or Emotiva Mini are higher energy efficiency, even smaller size, and higher power density. Same goes for a DIY, unless it is tampered with to make it low-fidelity such as by shoving a glorified overpriced lightbulb into the signal path. 

With a transparent commodity amp the sound of the system depends entirely on the recording, the frequency/polar response and output capability of the loudspeakers, and speaker/listener positioning.


----------



## Niebur3

DS-21 said:


> Yes, it is a UcD180 module. If you could read properly you will see I never added the letters "HG" to the module name. The module Pro-Ject uses is clearly visible on Hypex's website for anyone competent in searching.
> 
> And yes, I am too smart to read "reviews" of sonically transparent commodity parts. By that I simply mean "I am not a deaf idiot." At one point deaf idiots were relatively rare on DIYMA, though the forum has endured a rise in pitiful and functionally deaf sales-hacks.
> 
> The only advantages the Hypex Pro-Ject has over, say, a Parasound Zamp or Emotiva Mini are higher energy efficiency, even smaller size, and higher power density. Same goes for a DIY, unless it is tampered with to make it low-fidelity such as by shoving a glorified overpriced lightbulb into the signal path.
> 
> With a transparent commodity amp the sound of the system depends entirely on the recording, the frequency/polar response and output capability of the loudspeakers, and speaker/listener positioning.


For once, I agree 100% with you. There are a lot of "idiots" on DIYMA. Some are new and some have been here a very long time.


----------



## Brian_smith06

Victor_inox said:


> It`s nice to put a face to forum ID Brian.:laugh:


they call me bubs

have you seen the show Trailer Park Boys? It is terrible and wonderful all at once.


----------



## fcarpio

Nice.


----------



## Victor_inox

knever3 said:


> I figured it would be for home use based on the topic location. I am shocked to see the small transformer for the amp though. It must run at a very high frequency to be that small, not just 60hz. I am used to seeing those huge transformers for home use. I was researching those modules when I ran across a DIY project using those Hypex modules.
> 
> Mike Andrews: Building a diycable.com Hypex UcD400 Amplifier Kit


You are correct it`s a switcher not linear power supply of the past. 
transformer for 1200W linear power supply would weight 10Lb or more.
Look at that monster in your link.
I used UcD with HxR that clean up any residual noise switcher psu might create. efficiency of SMPS PSU is 92%, way better than linear PSU at 40-45%


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> Yes, it is a UcD180 module. If you could read properly you will see I never added the letters "HG" to the module name. The module Pro-Ject uses is clearly visible on Hypex's website for anyone competent in searching.
> 
> And yes, I am too smart to read "reviews" of sonically transparent commodity parts. By that I simply mean "I am not a deaf idiot." At one point deaf idiots were relatively rare on DIYMA, though the forum has endured a rise in pitiful and functionally deaf sales-hacks.
> 
> The only advantages the Hypex Pro-Ject has over, say, a Parasound Zamp or Emotiva Mini are higher energy efficiency, even smaller size, and higher power density. Same goes for a DIY, unless it is tampered with to make it low-fidelity such as by shoving a glorified overpriced lightbulb into the signal path.
> 
> With a transparent commodity amp the sound of the system depends entirely on the recording, the frequency/polar response and output capability of the loudspeakers, and speaker/listener positioning.



I have no responce to you arrogant rant. 
i`d take that glorified lightbulb over pretty much any op amp but that`s just me, perhaps I`m deaf idiot, as rest of the humans who love "glorified light bulbs". that being most of those musicians you listening to on your digital domain recordings. 
Only arrogant fool can call sophistication and beauty of vacuum tubes "light bulb".


----------



## DS-21

I prefer enjoying music over playing demented electrician and obsessing about mere electrical parts. But that may just be me.

I also prefer coherent sentence structure over unintelligible word salad. Again, may just be me.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> I prefer enjoying music over playing demented electrician and obsessing about mere electrical parts. But that may just be me.
> 
> I also prefer coherent sentence structure over unintelligible word salad. Again, may just be me.


I have a feeling that you understood my unintelligible word salad exactly as it was intended. 
:laugh:


----------



## DS-21

Actually I have no idea what you intended to convey. At least, beyond rambling and misguided idiot snob bromides about obsolete, unreliable, and low fidelity fetish parts.


----------



## Victor_inox

I'm done with you.good bye

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## DS-21

That's nice. Start the threat with a blatant and self-serving lie ("Amps with the 180W start at 2k.") Then, after you beg me repeatly in public and private I point you to a good deal on a fine product. Finally you go all petulant deaf snob on us. Have fun.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> That's nice. Start the threat with a blatant and self-serving lie ("Amps with the 180W start at 2k.") Then, after you beg me repeatly in public and private I point you to a good deal on a fine product. Finally you go all petulant deaf snob on us. Have fun.


 Not "us" you specifically. 
I was perhaps misinformed but calling it self serving lie is a stretch. 
I haven`t begged you, I asked for a proof to you statement, nothing more.
After being an ass you finally provided a link to a product i bought and said will review, you went ballistic saying no review would be needed, started calling me names like I raped your daughter in the ass...


Seriously if my posts make no sense to you why you bother to reply, I`m confused.


----------



## slade1274

Victor_inox said:


> After being an ass you finally provided a link to a product i bought and said will review, you went ballistic saying no review would be needed, started calling me names like *I raped your daughter in the ass*...












He never called you a name- you obviously took something general as personal based on your misguided beliefs. That would give pause as to why........

Anyway- glad to see you back DS-21; it has been too long. Entertainment value from spirited debate has been sorely lacking. I see you still have the gift. :laugh:


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> Not "us" you specifically.


Please explain to the galley how going all petulant deaf snob on "you specifically" differs from going all petulant deaf snob on "us." 

At least by your own words we seem to agree that your word salad ramblings about low-fi glorified lightbulbs are petulant deaf snobbery. That's progress. 



Victor_inox said:


> I was perhaps misinformed but calling it self serving lie is a stretch.


How is it not a self serving lie to advertise one's custom work and massively inflate the prices of other products using the same components? 

Even if you didn't know about the Pro-Ject you should have done enough due dilligence to know about the Rogue Audio Sphinx, as it was reviewed in Stereophile and the amp modules were mentioned in the review. 



Victor_inox said:


> I haven`t begged you, I asked for a proof to you statement, nothing more.


"Please please please tell me so I can have it" was the tone of your public and private comments.


----------



## Victor_inox

keep going... you bring more customers bumping this thread.
I asked you in PM
"please let me know where did you see amp with Ucd180 for 300?"
and publicly:
why post it here if you not sharing?

not as you presented it.
everything else in your ramble not worth mentioning anymore.
you sir have a nice day.


----------



## DS-21

Interesting that you view DIYMA as a place where greasy con men can successfully ply their trade to the gullible either without interference from reality or in stubborn defiance of reality. 

Perhaps you are right but I hope you are not.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> Interesting that you view DIYMA as a place where greasy con men can successfully ply their trade to the gullible either without interference from reality or in stubborn defiance of reality.
> 
> My feedback on diyma clealy portray me as "greezy con man"
> so please,please,please keep going,:laugh::laugh:
> 
> Ohh btw, Rogue audio Sphinx cost 1295 and has "glorified light bulb" front stage. And it use 180W oem modules.
> 
> here is another example of power amplifier using 700W hypex modules $25000 a pair of monoblocks.
> It`s claimed to use altered UcD700 oem modules.
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/mbl-corona-c15-monoblock-power-amplifier#fIVRDZqsmqdw605O.97


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> I have no responce to you arrogant rant.
> i`d take that glorified lightbulb over pretty much any op amp but that`s just me, perhaps I`m deaf idiot, as rest of the humans who love "glorified light bulbs". that being most of those musicians you listening to on your digital domain recordings.
> Only arrogant fool can call sophistication and beauty of vacuum tubes "light bulb".


Please be careful here. Music production and music *re*production are two entirely different things with different philosophies, different goals, and different strategies. To suggest that the trends in one field apply to the other is a mistake.

Also, after 30+ years of trying, a few digital companies are FINALLY figuring out how to compete with their analog competitors re: sound production. I believe you'll see a trend in the direction of a fully digital pipeline in the next decade.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> Please explain to the galley how going all petulant deaf snob on "you specifically" differs from going all petulant deaf snob on "us."
> 
> At least by your own words we seem to agree that your word salad ramblings about low-fi glorified lightbulbs are petulant deaf snobbery. That's progress.
> 
> 
> 
> How is it not a self serving lie to advertise one's custom work and massively inflate the prices of other products using the same components?
> 
> Even if you didn't know about the Pro-Ject you should have done enough due dilligence to know about the Rogue Audio Sphinx, as it was reviewed in Stereophile and the amp modules were mentioned in the review.
> 
> 
> 
> "Please please please tell me so I can have it" was the tone of your public and private comments.





MarkZ said:


> Please be careful here. Music production and music *re*production are two entirely different things with different philosophies, different goals, and different strategies. To suggest that the trends in one field apply to the other is a mistake.
> 
> Also, after 30+ years of trying, a few digital companies are FINALLY figuring out how to compete with their analog competitors re: sound production. I believe you'll see a trend in the direction of a fully digital pipeline in the next decade.


 fully digital pipeline exist for the last 25 years, yet there is people who prefer analog from production to reproduction. variety is good, isnt it?


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> fully digital pipeline exist for the last 25 years, yet there is people who prefer analog from production to reproduction. variety is good, isnt it?


Exists, yes. But they haven't been good solutions -- all around -- (think emulators) until a few years ago, I would say. Saw a band recently that had an _entirely_ digital live rig (the Fractal stuff) after having been analog advocates for 25 years. Granted, it's close to a six-figure rig presently, but the price for this sort of thing will be way more affordable in future iterations. Point is, the previous analog crowd -- of which I am one -- is fading into oblivion with the advent of new technologies. I'm not ready to give up my tubes, but I recognize it's nostalgia more than anything else.


----------



## Victor_inox

Even entirely digital rig will have analog amplification at the last stage- there is no other way.


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> Even entirely digital rig will have analog amplification at the last stage- there is no other way.


No it ties directly into the PA.

(Yes, I'm aware that the PA eventually relies on analog amplification at some point -- but that totally misses the context of the conversation... the PA is less about "creation" and more about the utilitarian goal of filling a space with sound). 

Point is that artists are increasingly relying more on digital solutions in the creation of music. And vacuum tubes are having less of a role along with it.


----------



## Victor_inox

MarkZ said:


> No it ties directly into the PA.
> 
> (Yes, I'm aware that the PA eventually relies on analog amplification at some point -- but that totally misses the context of the conversation... the PA is less about "creation" and more about the utilitarian goal of filling a space with sound).
> 
> Point is that artists are increasingly relying more on digital solutions in the creation of music. And vacuum tubes are having less of a role along with it.


 that was a point you were trying to make , not me.
My point is simple, sound is analog
domain and never going to be digital, despite digital processing.
It`s captured by analog microphone converted to digital by ADC, processed and converted back to analog. simplified path always looks like that. 
I don`t think you qualified to speak for all musicians out there. 
and most definitely not for millions of audiophiles who love "glorified light bulb" sound.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Since tubes add distortion and lessen fidelity… aren’t the choices:

Either you like the tube sound 
or 
you like high fidelity reproduction. 

Both can’t be true at the same time.


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> that was a point you were trying to make , not me.
> My point is simple, sound is analog
> domain and never going to be digital, despite digital processing.
> It`s captured by analog microphone converted to digital by ADC, processed and converted back to analog. simplified path always looks like that.
> I don`t think you qualified to speak for all musicians out there.
> and most definitely not for millions of audiophiles who love "glorified light bulb" sound.


I don't know what to do with this gibberish. None of it has anything to do with vacuum tubes, current trends in recording and live sound, or your weak argument in support of the idea that sound production trends should dictate strategy in sound *re*production.


----------



## Victor_inox

MarkZ said:


> I don't know what to do with this gibberish. None of it has anything to do with vacuum tubes, current trends in recording and live sound, or your weak argument in support of the idea that sound production trends should dictate strategy in sound *re*production.


 what part you don`t understand? Analog to digital conversion?

source is always analog. so is signal sent to speakers.
I thought it`s obvious.
For some reason you think that you know music production process better than me.
Nostalgia or not there is a big market for tube amplifiers.


----------



## Victor_inox

AAAAAAA said:


> Since tubes add distortion and lessen fidelity… aren’t the choices:
> 
> Either you like the tube sound
> or
> you like high fidelity reproduction.
> 
> Both can’t be true at the same time.


You forgot to add in your Opinion.
that is your opinion- not facts.
if that not high fidelity- nothing is.








or this:


----------



## capea4

Victor_inox said:


> You forgot to add in your Opinion.
> that is your opinion- not facts.
> if that not high fidelity- nothing is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this:


looks like a nav computer from the apollo missions


----------



## Victor_inox

It`s just an amplifier.
here is one of the apollo computers


----------



## capea4

i was close????


that thing solid state?


----------



## Victor_inox

Why is that people who never has tube amp insist on tube sound infidelity?
your grandma 1957 console was not hi fidelity and you think all tubes sounds like it?


----------



## capea4

Victor_inox said:


> Why is that people who never has tube amp insist on tube sound infidelity?
> your grandma 1957 console was not hi fidelity and you think all tubes sounds like it?


i was just "poking the bear"
my last bump with tube was that macintosh 275 anniversary amp the did, with a pair of Revel bookshelves, it sounded great, fed from that macintosh digital music server they made....lol


----------



## Victor_inox

capea4 said:


> i was close????
> 
> 
> that thing solid state?


yes you are! looks alike.. 
Apollo guidance system was one of the first solid state.
Nuclear subs used tubes in late 80th for their sonar systems.


----------



## Victor_inox

capea4 said:


> i was just "poking the bear"
> my last bump with tube was that macintosh 275 anniversary amp the did, with a pair of Revel bookshelves, it sounded great, fed from that macintosh digital music server they made....lol


 Obviously high enough fidelity for you. or was it nostalgia?


----------



## capea4

i just put the **** in man, people buy whatever the salesman get them on....

sometimes i calibrate it

usually end up programing it too, but only if its crestron, i HATE savant (just my opinion, not the opinion of the company i work for)lol


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> what part you don`t understand? Analog to digital conversion?
> 
> source is always analog. so is signal sent to speakers.
> I thought it`s obvious.
> For some reason you think that you know music production process better than me.
> Nostalgia or not there is a big market for tube amplifiers.


I don't understand why you're taking everything so personally. Or why you're so certain that you have more experience than a complete stranger on the internet.

Anyway, you're really coming at this whole thing from a sound *re*production standpoint, but you're doing this _after_ talking about sound _production_ to support your original statement to DS-21. It's not obvious to me whether I've made it clear enough to you that the two things have practically nothing to do with each other.

Let me give you an example. You've stressed the importance of having a "simplified" signal path. You've implied that fewer transductions (I prefer this term over conversions in this context) is beneficial. Cool. From the standpoint of sound *re*production, all of this makes sense. But from the standpoint of sound _production_, it has absolutely no merit at all. If it did, people would get up on stage and plug in directly to boards. Instead, a typical process for rock musicians is to process, amplify, transduce, mic, and then go into the board. They are deliberately not simplifying the signal path because they are creating a sound that is the composition of all of those transductions. They're not reproducing a sound -- they're MAKING it de novo.

So you can't cite preferences from sound _production_ to support your strategy for sound *re*production. "Simplified" signal paths are a desirable goal for one and deliberately ignored for the other. Just like the benefits of using tube amplification for one has no bearing on the other.

FWIW, I have three guitar amplifiers -- all three are tube amps -- and all three are spec'd to produce about 20-50% THD into their rated outputs. Tubes have historically done very well at generating the types of distortion (or warmth, or whatever other descriptors have been used) that many musicians like to add to their music as they're creating it. Today, digital tube emulators are soooooo much better than they used to be. The cheapest being the ones you'll find in some of the modern solid state guitar and bass amplifiers. The more expensive being the fully fledged emulators (like the one I mentioned earlier).

Technical advancement is pretty cool.


----------



## Victor_inox

Taking it personally? Because this thread was about amplifier I build for a client who is happy with outcome. 
immediately DS-21 started pooping on my use of "glorified light bulb" in input stage.
BTW I`d take that input stage over ANY opamp input stage.
Client wanted integrated solution with volume control and got just that. no hum often associated to tubes, no noise at the speakers unless you put your ear on the tweeter in absolutely quiet room. 

I didn`t say anywhere that I know sound production process better than you. 
I said"For some reason you think that you know music production better than me.
So it goes back at you. what makes you think that you know better then stranger on the internet?
Oversaturated power tubes indeed produce ****load of distortion.
So is solid state but much more violently. 
It`s about circuit design and use not technology involved.

some might prefer blow up girl over real thing, emulators are just that. 
why emulate something when it`s still available?


----------



## etroze

Nice amp Vic if I ever close on my house and get moved in I might have to have you build me one.


----------



## Victor_inox

Sure thing,thanks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## DS-21

AAAAAAA said:


> Since tubes add distortion and lessen fidelity… aren’t the choices:
> 
> 
> 
> Either you like the tube sound
> 
> or
> 
> you like high fidelity reproduction.
> 
> 
> 
> Both can’t be true at the same time.



Sure they can. Tubes, especially at line level, can be audibly indistinguishable from modern parts. Just less reliable, less durable, and less energy efficient. Basically they're either effects boxes or pointless aesthetic affectations for silly lightbulb fetishists. 



Victor_inox said:


> You forgot to add in your Opinion.
> 
> that is your opinion- not facts.
> 
> if that not high fidelity- nothing is.


Outclassed by a $300 AVR in driving real speakers with flat frequency response, but much uglier than an AVR. 



Victor_inox said:


> Why is that people who never has tube amp insist on tube sound infidelity?



First, how do you know what people "has"?

Second, some of us understand the concept of source impedance and how it relates to fidelity. It has nothing to do with distortion and everything to do with flat frequency response when driving a non-resistive load. Most Class D amps have the same issue. Very few tube amps have flat FR into real speakers. Look at simulated load FR tests published in Stereophile or Soundstage. Ironically, Hypex modules are an exception, as are Icepower and Anaview. All three are as good as good solid state, but considerably smaller, more power dense, and more energy efficient. Those are real attributes, unlike idiot blovations about amp "sound" by imaginative people with poor listening skills.


----------



## Victor_inox

I'd answer but sinse you refuse to understand my gibberish I wont.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

this thread is not a discussion of one technology superiority over another
end of story. You tube haters want it to be, I don`t understand your aggression toward it.


----------



## Niebur3

I love how DS-21 can come in here and argue "commodity" products and that they have no sonic differences, and yet he has a McIntosh MX406 (I believe) head unit. 

I wonder what high end (commodity) amps he has.....hahahahahahahahaha.


----------



## Victor_inox

Niebur3 said:


> I love how DS-21 can come in here and argue "commodity" products and that they have no sonic differences, and yet he has a McIntosh MX406 (I believe) head unit.
> 
> I wonder what high end (commodity) amps he has.....hahahahahahahahaha.


After his escapade about average AVR behave better than top of the line Audio Research amp that was build to drive most demanding loads I gave up. 
He is hopeless.


----------



## Jesus Christ

Niebur3 said:


> I love how DS-21 can come in here and argue "commodity" products and that they have no sonic differences, and yet he has a McIntosh MX406 (I believe) head unit.


So what, if that is what he uses I'm willing to bet it's due to the aesthetics and not because there's any sonic benefit to it.


----------



## cajunner

the commodity parts tag line is attributed to DS-21, so after a reasonable pause from being relevant in the DIYMA circle, or round table as it were, he reignites the flames of amplifier sonic attributes by engaging our outspoken comrade, the man with a knack for putting a mish-mash of actual commodity parts, (Hypex modules, Chinese tube amps, etc.) who absolutely takes the bait, making DS-21 suddenly relevant again and a part of the general conversation using his tag line as access point and focal to the argument of greasy con men who sell their wares to the DIYMA community under the pretenses of unique, or niche products...

I don't really feel compelled to stand in for Victor who was possibly unaware of DS-21's penchant for dramatic volleys and inciting the susceptible, who cling to their audio lexicography of audiophile terms like a medicine man as he wades through our modern day emergency room, nor the volumetric flask of corrosive thought unleashed on the average reader and their analytic quotient overloading by a practitioner of the cynical trivia, trespass...


anyways, I'm not really perturbed by the market saturation, ol' Victor is doing this place a service to create frankenwares that accommodate the practical and the perfectionist, actuary to a catalog of items I might consider worth their weight using the old iron and glass, since nobody else is ginning it up for the price point, Milbert and HSS Fidelity are pipe dreams at 3 large and a 3-day cruise...


----------



## Victor_inox

what is it about Chinese tube amps? I don`t get that part. I don`t use any. All my preamps and amps designed and 
manufactured in US of A not China. I use chinese parts but only because there is no alternative.
Just setting a record straight.
DS-21 is still irrelevant, at least that is to me.


----------



## cajunner

it's not important where you get the parts/boards/iron/glass for your products, it's more important to me that you are the only game in town right now for 1000 bucks getting 2 mono block tube amps for the car, right?


I mean it's more important to me that you fill that niche, unless you've already raised your prices and then your importance to the community dwindles with the increase in profit margins on your end.

but that's law, profit and demand, supply and market share, unique ratios...


I think it's a splendid idea mating a tube preamp with a class D efficient drive module, it satisfies each desire simultaneously but requiring the perfectionist and the practical nature to collectively "suspend disbelief" so that the necessary gelling can take place...


for some, a tube amp is never going to be worth it's insertion of distortion, no matter how minuscule the envelope of audible artifacts, and for others the class D efficiency along with form factor cannot bring to the table the requiem of transcendent pass times...


----------



## Victor_inox

nonetheless, i`ve had to set it straight.
I`m thrilled that you like my idea of super efficient power stage on top of tube input stage. 
I have all possible combinations of amplification in my disposal, and I like outcome of that symbiosis very much.


----------



## DS-21

Niebur3 said:


> I love how DS-21 can come in here and argue "commodity" products and that they have no sonic differences, and yet he has a McIntosh MX406 (I believe) head unit.


Reason was, as stated by someone more perceptive than a mere parts dealer, entirely looks. The same reason why people buy $8000 Attolini suits even though they're no better made than the $1600 Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece suits made by Martin Greenfield, and probably less durable. But those Attolini shoulders just look majestic. 



Niebur3;3075170I wonder what high end (commodity) amps he has.....hahahahahahahahaha.[/QUOTE said:


> Car amps aren't visible in any system I'd care to own, so reliability and heat management are important with energy efficiency the next ranked criterion. In the Miata, I think I'm running a ca 2009 model year Kenwood Class D to the subs and midbass and a 2-channel Ubuy Piccolo (elfAudio brand) Class H miniamp to the widebanders. Amps are so unimportant that I don't even know for sure. I haven't seen mine for years, as they are concealed in the car and still work just fine. Unless they suck, amps just work.


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> After his escapade about average AVR behave better than top of the line Audio Research amp that was build to drive most demanding loads I gave up.
> 
> He is hopeless.



I've actually recently heard an ARC amp driving Vandersteen Trios, compared to an excellent and reasonably priced (considering) Class D (NAD with Hypex Ncore) at a local dealer. 

Ignoring that the speakers weren't nearly up to my standards and frankly absurd sounding at the price - a clearly audible chesty lower mid resonance with both amps, and great variations in sound as one moves around the room - the sonic difference was clear. The ARC amp clearly reduced midrange level. I don't know of measurements of that speaker but based on sound I assume it has a deep impedance trough in the 1-4kHz region.


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> Taking it personally? Because this thread was about amplifier I build for a client who is happy with outcome.
> immediately DS-21 started pooping on my use of "glorified light bulb" in input stage.
> BTW I`d take that input stage over ANY opamp input stage.
> Client wanted integrated solution with volume control and got just that. no hum often associated to tubes, no noise at the speakers unless you put your ear on the tweeter in absolutely quiet room.
> 
> I didn`t say anywhere that I know sound production process better than you.
> I said"For some reason you think that you know music production better than me.
> So it goes back at you. what makes you think that you know better then stranger on the internet?
> Oversaturated power tubes indeed produce ****load of distortion.
> So is solid state but much more violently.
> It`s about circuit design and use not technology involved.
> 
> some might prefer blow up girl over real thing, emulators are just that.
> why emulate something when it`s still available?


Well, I didn't say I knew any particular process better than you, whereas you said that to me. So your question isn't really valid.

But to answer your final question... Why emulate? I think that could be its own thread. It comes down to user preference, generally. I saw a band recently that went with a fully digital system after being analog advocates for many years, and when they were asked that question this was their response:

Failure interview: Ken Andrews and Greg Edwards - Guitar & Bass | Guitar & Bass



Ken Andrews (he is a very prominent recording engineer said:


> “Sure. We can tap all the guitar and bass sounds a lot more accurately because of amp modelling. The idea of putting the old rigs back together was not appealing to me at all, and I actually got Fractal’s Axe-Fx a year and a half ago when we were starting to entertain the idea of playing live.
> 
> “Everyone said ‘You’ve got to try the latest modelling technology see how far it’s come’, and Axe-Fx blew me away. To be able to cover all the sounds from the old albums and the new stuff in one box, and more accurately than a full analogue rig would be able to do, has been a huge facilitating feature of this whole reboot. We use Apple MainStage for keyboard sounds; I trigger a few samples off my pedal board, Kelli triggers some samples from his drum pad, but it’s all MIDI controllers running into MainStage on one laptop on my side of the stage.
> 
> “Another reason the Axe-Fx has worked so well for us as they do both guitar and bass pretty well. Greg and I switch live quite a bit.”





Greg Edwards said:


> How do you react to Failure’s current modelling amp set-up?
> “I am philosophically and emotionally resistant to it – for bass, the Ampeg 8×10 and the SVT-2 head are impossible to beat. But the reality is this virtual stuff is really, really good.
> 
> “This guy and his technicians have basically done the most meticulous obsessive modelling of cabinets, different heads, even different power amps and all the different basic effects he’s followed every parameter. And with heads and things he’s made things available that would only be possible by opening up classic heads and modifying them. He’s made those things variable just with a virtual knob. And it’s amazing how close they are.
> 
> “Right now we have one external pedal because it does something that can’t be represented by Axe-Fx. Other than that, it’s all coming from the box. It has all the basic modulation delay effects, all the classic stompboxes, heads and cabinets – any combination you want to come up with.
> 
> “You do lose all the air getting pushed around the stage and the natural feedback of the vibration into your guitar as you play – you hit a chord and feel it sustaining because there’s this loop happening even before there’s audible feedback. When there’s no amps on stage you lose that; it’s a whole undercurrent that’s not there. But it balances out in the convenience and the control it gives the sound guy out front.”


Not much different from car audio... it's all about tradeoffs.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> I've actually recently heard an ARC amp driving Vandersteen Trios, compared to an excellent and reasonably priced (considering) Class D (NAD with Hypex Ncore) at a local dealer.
> 
> Ignoring that the speakers weren't nearly up to my standards and frankly absurd sounding at the price - a clearly audible chesty lower mid resonance with both amps, and great variations in sound as one moves around the room - the sonic difference was clear. The ARC amp clearly reduced midrange level. I don't know of measurements of that speaker but based on sound I assume it has a deep impedance trough in the 1-4kHz region.


 Hearing that from you I`m surprised how anything at the dealer could be "reasonably priced". 
Absurd good or absurd bad?
INHO Richard Vandersteen is best americal loudspeaker designer alive.
But if you don`t like it you don`t like it. I`d prefer 3A sigs myself.


----------



## Victor_inox

MarkZ said:


> Well, I didn't say I knew any particular process better than you, whereas you said that to me. So your question isn't really valid.
> 
> But to answer your final question... Why emulate? I think that could be its own thread. It comes down to user preference, generally. I saw a band recently that went with a fully digital system after being analog advocates for many years, and when they were asked that question this was their response:
> 
> Failure interview: Ken Andrews and Greg Edwards - Guitar & Bass | Guitar & Bass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not much different from car audio... it's all about tradeoffs.



main tradeoff is price, always is, given unlimited funds no musician would prefer emulation to real thing.


----------



## MarkZ

Victor_inox said:


> main tradeoff is price, always is, given unlimited funds no musician would prefer emulation to real thing.




Except for the example I just gave you. Did you read it?

Those two guys -- one also being a very prominent recording engineer -- listed plenty of reasons why they chose emulation for their current touring rig, and price was not included (that system is actually very expensive). Maybe as a musician yourself you reject those reasons, but they are also professional musicians who have made a choice and their opinions and preferences are worth something.


----------



## Victor_inox

and that is fine with me, we all want varieties to chose from.

I restored 2" shuder multitracker last year for a guy with 3 million dollars recording studio. he prefer it over his Sonar DAW for some recordings.
it`s digitized after that but he creates analog master regardless.


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> Hearing that from you I`m surprised how anything at the dealer could be "reasonably priced".


The NAD M22 is fairly priced for what it is, bleeding edge technology in a nice case from a brand with proven solid resale value. Now, would I personally spend three grand on a stereo power amp? No. But that's neither here nor there. For someone who would and wants the best, that NAD is probably it. 




Victor_inox said:


> Absurd good or absurd bad?


Did you actually read the post to which you replied? Basic design flaws in the cabinet and/or drive units (resonance causing chesty coloration) in addition to the ideological blinders (alleged 1st order crossovers) that also adversely impact performance by prioritizing something stupid (an extremist crossover type) over factors known to matter (flat and smooth axial FR, smooth off-axis FR, well- controlled resonances.)

Honestly I cannot fathom anyone familiar with how live unamplified music sounds picking those Vandy Trios over, say, the Revel F208. 



Victor_inox said:


> INHO Richard Vandersteen is best americal loudspeaker designer alive.


Admittedly I've only heard two of his speakers, and in dealer showrooms at that. The first was in the 1990s, when a pair of Tannoy D700s made the Vandy flagship of the day (don't remember the name, but it had isobaric and possibly powered Dynaudio 30W100 woofers and strikingly beautiful book matched veneer) sound like a bad DIY design in the same room, and the disappointing experience with the Trios this year. 

But based on that small sample he wouldn't make my top 100.


----------



## Victor_inox

DS-21 said:


> The NAD M22 is fairly priced for what it is, bleeding edge technology in a nice case from a brand with proven solid resale value. Now, would I personally spend three grand on a stereo power amp? No. But that's neither here nor there. For someone who would and wants the best, that NAD is probably it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually read the post to which you replied? Basic design flaws in the cabinet and/or drive units (resonance causing chesty coloration) in addition to the ideological blinders (alleged 1st order crossovers) that also adversely impact performance by prioritizing something stupid (an extremist crossover type) over factors known to matter (flat and smooth axial FR, smooth off-axis FR, well- controller resonances.)
> 
> Honestly I cannot fathom anyone familiar with how live unamplified music sounds picking those Vandy Trios over, say, the Revel F208.
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly I've only heard two of his speakers, and in dealer showrooms at that. The first was in the 1990s, when a pair of Tannoy D700s made the Vandy flagship of the day (don't remember the name, but it had isobaric and possibly powered Dynaudio 30W100 woofers) made the Vandy's sound like a bad DIY design in the same room, and the disappointing experience with the Trios this year.
> 
> But based on that small sample he wouldn't make my top 100.


 
I dunno who and how demoed those vandies to you.... 
I know the guy and owned about every one of his models up to 62 grand version. they power hungry, that`s for sure. but once you feed them power they need not many speakers out there sounds better if any.
I`ve tested 3A sigs side by side with wilsonaudio mezzo and prefer 3A sigs.
4500 a pair vs 14000 a pair for mezzos. both powered by Bolder Audio monoblocks. 

BTW that Pro-Ject amp will be delivered today and I`ll post review in side by side comparison with couple of other amplifiers I have. I know you don`t want to hear any reviews from anyone as you of course know better, but It`s still available for 299 at link you posted, perhaps others would use this opportunity to get power amp for their 120V outlets.


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> I`ve tested 3A sigs side by side with wilsonaudio mezzo and prefer 3A sigs.


That's damning with faint praise. Wilsons are Bose for rich deaf people, except bigger and uglier.


----------



## Victor_inox

That's what it is...Ok then.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

THis guy apparently an idiot.


----------



## Victor_inox

Received Pro-ject today.
First disappointment they included wrong power cord in the box.
View attachment 99370
View attachment 99378
View attachment 99386
View attachment 99394
View attachment 99402


Power cord is not a problem as i have plenty of those 320 cords.
2.5A of available current in that power brick certainly is. 2.5A into 48V sums up at 120W combined watts of power and it shows..... Perhaps more appropriate PSU would cure this problem.
At this point I don`t see a value in this product even at discounted price of 299 so it`s going back.
As almost always you get what you pay for and not a bit more. There is always a catch...
Even mono version of this amp using same power brick effectively limiting available power to about 100W.


----------



## Victor_inox

Victor_inox said:


> Received Pro-ject today.
> First disappointment they included wrong power cord in the box.
> View attachment 99370
> View attachment 99378
> View attachment 99386
> View attachment 99394
> View attachment 99402
> 
> 
> Power cord is not a problem as i have plenty of those 320 cords.
> 2.5A of available current in that power brick certainly is. 2.5A into 48V sums up at 120W combined watts of power and it shows..... Perhaps more appropriate PSU would cure this problem.
> At this point I don`t see a value in this product even at discounted price of 299 so it`s going back.
> As almost always you get what you pay for and not a bit more. There is always a catch...
> Even mono version of this amp using same power brick effectively limiting available power to about 100W.


@DS-21
what you not going to come up with insult about my observations?
Come on man it`s out of your character.
BTW, Music direct is awesome, they accepted my return request and provided prepaid label. At least I `ve got something positive out of this experiment.


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> That's what it is...Ok then.


Yep. Wilson spends more time coming up with faux-scifi names for countertop boards (which is what their cabinets are made of) than they do on crossover design, and it shows in the sound of their speakers.

As for the Vandies, turns out I got the name wrong by a letter. I guess Dicky V drew inspiration from a 1990s smartphone, because they're actually called Treo not Trio. And Stereophile measured them: Vandersteen Audio Treo loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Some interesting correlations.

*Me:* a clearly audible chesty lower mid resonance with both amps, 

*Stereophile:*








Hmm. I wonder what a resonance at 500Hz sounds like. 

*Me:* and great variations in sound as one moves around the room 

*Stereophile:* 








Analysis: Look at that wretched pattern control in the horizontal plane! 

*Me:* The ARC amp clearly reduced midrange level. I don't know of measurements of that speaker but based on sound I assume it has a deep impedance trough in the 1-4kHz region.

*Stereophile:*








Analysis: Not what I would've expected. There's some dip in the impedance curve over the midrange, I guess, but really the speaker's impedance stays quite constant; based on measurements I'd say it's a very tube-friendly speaker. Perhaps what I heard was expectation bias on my part, or perhaps the Audio Research amp is such a poor design with source impedance so high that its frequency response tracks even small changes in the driven loudspeakers' impedance curve. The reasonable explanation is to chalk this one up to my expectation bias and not completely extreme incompetence on the part of ARC. 



Victor_inox said:


> 2.5A of available current in that power brick certainly is. 2.5A into 48V sums up at 120W combined watts of power and it shows..... Perhaps more appropriate PSU would cure this problem.


I've found it* just fine in practice driving my desktop speakers with the impedance curve below and 










I've attached test results from one of the Pro-Ject amps* to this post.

*In fairness, my experience and these measurements are from the previous generation model, called Amp Box SE. I do not know if the PSU changed, though FWIW Pro-Ject claims better low impedance drive for the newer Amp Box DS.

I'm curious with what program material, loudspeakers, and SPL this alleged PSU deficiency is apparent. Or did you just listen with your eyes?


----------



## Victor_inox

I don`t listen with my eyes, it seems you do posting all these graphs as relevant.
PSU deficiency apparent on paper. PSU they use is over the counter power brick, nothing special about it as far as I can see without taking it apart, I would but I already returned this thing to MD. 

P.S.You desktop speaker probably driven into 10W 99.9% of the time.


----------



## DS-21

Victor_inox said:


> PSU they use is over the counter power brick, nothing special about it as far as I can see without taking it apart, I would but I already returned this thing to MD..



So what? It obviously does the job, as the actual measurement I posted shows to anyone who can think. True, it doesn't drip with audiophool idiot snake oil, so it's unacceptable to functionally deaf people with overpriced lightbulbs stuck up their rear ends.

And work on your math. If one's desktop system has speakers with ~88dB/2.83V/1m and one listens with 10W average power....ok, I get why tubes make sense. One can't hear music any more because s/he has ruined her/his ears, but at least tubes glow.


----------



## Victor_inox

Where did you get that graph from? Pro-ject? 
what is wrong with my math? 48V times 2.5A = 120
120Watt of theoretically available power in 100% efficiency situation. meaning that graph is ********.



IMHO Pro-ject not worth sale price due to poor power supply design. That`s why I sent it back- stamped steel case is cost 2 dollars to make. whole thing looks cheap- feels cheap and what`s most important sounds cheap. In fact I compared it with TPA3116 $12 dollars amp and found them sounds very similar.
It might sound acceptable to you and your desktop speakers.... whatever floats your boat.
I`ve got it you on crusade against tubes. but I think you pick a wrong thread to do so. 
Is anyone who prefer different amplifier topology an audiophool in your book?


----------

