# best amp....



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

that you have owned, what is it and why? not interested in "they all the sound the same or a watt is a watt", best amp you have owned


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

This is easy for me. Old School Alpine 3920A mono blocks. Lots of power from a small footprint and they could be strapped together.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

easy. PPI A600.2


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## Barnaby (Aug 25, 2009)

A/D/S PQ10. Provided all the reliable power I needed at the time and was flexible enough to be in several systems. SQ was as good as I could detect.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Orion HCCA 225 back in the early 90's. Ran my entire 10 speaker system with this amp and 2 Audio Control EQT's. Made all 12dB passive crossovers myself (ordered components from MCM - who remembers MCM?) and the subs were 2 - 10" Kicker Comps in a isobaric bandpass enclosure. I remember it being phenomenal but in reality I wonder how it sounded in comparison to today 30 years later. That amp was bulletproof and made 8 times it's rated power.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Adcom GFA 4702 running passive 3-way front stage with A/D/S components on hand built crossovers (yes @DaveG from MCM.) Cleanest, most neutral and most dynamic system I had before 24 bit audio came out and the first dome tweeters/mids that I ever used.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

I have an Alpine PDX-M12 that has never missed a beat or thermaled and I am not easy on it.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Genesis Series III - Four Channel - Class A Bias .. because it's _ALIVE!_


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

Drivers: p six mkii - 120x6 that sounds flawless AND a helix dsp onboard - there is none higher. 

Sub: alpine m12, hands down, the best 1200 watts into 4 ohms I’ve ever heard.


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## zak (Oct 2, 2007)

I have a few:

1) Fosgate PR2100 - OK, this is truly old school, but it was such a big amplifier in its time, and I loved the controller with the slide volume, simple 3 band eq, and the lights of course - so classic! I still have it sitting in my garage. Could do without the DIN plug for sure 
2) For the last 20 years, I have thoroughly enjoyed my McIntosh MC420. It has worked flawlessly and has never felt short of power - even with Focal 8ohm home drivers. Because of #3, I might be selling it soon.
3) Not sure yet - trying out some Mosconi Pros.

Dave


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Porsche said:


> that you have owned, what is it and why? not interested in "they all the sound the same or a watt is a watt", best amp you have owned


And you?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I am partial to Sinfoni. Powerful sound and dead silent.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

nice


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

DLS A3 because it can run a front stage or it can be wired down to pound a sub with 1000+ watts.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Zapco AP is the best one I've had so far in my personal opinion. It has a very rich, full sound, almost like a depth and substance to the sound instead of cold and clinical like some amps would be the best way I could describe it...I smiled and was thinking "wow" the first time I listened to a song on it...


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

DaveG said:


> And you?


i have 2 favorites, abyss dual mono and the adcom 4702, the adcom has a little bit more authority but the DM is a little bit ore musical


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Sound Monitor PAX 3A - 3P

Separate power source and amplifier connected via XLR. Clean, small, powerful, and unique.


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## selftc (Jan 22, 2007)

any of my Phoenix Gold amps from the late '90s. underrated, clean, and silent. should have never sold them. 


MS-275 x 3
MS-2125 x 2
MQ-430


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

My trusty old Monolithic PA2000M(it's really just 1/2 of the original DM's Porsche is referencing above and not as highly biased). I've beat on that thing for years & it's never skipped a beat. 

For a multi channel I'd have to say an old SS Reference 405. It's a very musical little amp that works great with high(er) efficiency speakers.


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## mrexcitement (Jan 23, 2019)

Alpine PDX-M12 - Driving 2 x Dayton Audio RSS265HO-4 10" subs
Alpine PDX-F6 - Driving Sb acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 Tweets and SB17MFC35-4 midwoofers

Compact , stackable , cool running , great sound , less draw on the electrical system and lots of power , only downside is cost.


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## nfountain (Apr 20, 2011)

Mine come in a pair. Either '95 or '96 had a punch 200 and a punch 4080 with the bridge piece making the amps appear connected as one large amplifier. That one giant slab of a George Foreman grill flush mounted on top of the sub box holding a pair of RF audiophile 12's. Green coned Infinity Kappa 6 1/2 components. May have enjoyed that system the most due to working my a$$ off to pay for it. Didn't realize until years later that one of my friends that lived on the other end of the neighborhood told me he always could hear my highs playing well before he could hear the bass coming. Never realized that sitting in the regular cab S-10 🤣


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## ExoTicLeveL (Oct 29, 2020)

Hands down old school copper Tru Tech Tube amps, have owned the 7.4T and its most warm and pleasent sounding amp! Can listen to music for hours.


Porsche said:


> i have 2 favorites, abyss dual mono and the adcom 4702, the adcom has a little bit more authority but the DM is a little bit ore musical


I know youve owned plenty of Trus and high end equipment, how would you compare the hybrid tubes against the dual mono? Cheers bud


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Oddly enough heavily modified Soundstream D60, D100, and D200 amps. Easy to upgrade. Absolute minimum signal path. Biased Class A generated a ton of heat but sounded buttery smooth.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

My favorite current amp is the Toro Tech Micro line. 100w x 4 for $79 or 800w for $109 in a 7x3x2.5" footprint that doesn't get warm or have a high noise floor at full tilt. I'm impressed everytime I look at them in my son's car.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

ExoTicLeveL said:


> copper Tru Tech Tube amp


These are sweet.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

Ge0 said:


> Oddly enough heavily modified Soundstream D60, D100, and D200 amps. Easy to upgrade. Absolute minimum signal path. Biased Class A generated a ton of heat but sounded buttery smooth.


I have a couple Series 1 D200's that have been gone through. Great amps.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Orion 225 HCCA. The cleanest sound out of a small footprint. Powerful and rugged. The beast.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Porsche said:


> that you have owned, what is it and why? not interested in "they all the sound the same or a watt is a watt", best amp you have owned


Chris, interesting topic to start without explaining what loudspeakers were paired with the amp. I've performed a lot of research lately into raw drivers and find the differences much more profound than amp selection. Now if we could all start with Dynaudio Esotar2 drivers then it would be a level playing field. But, that is not going to happen. 

If everyone does not mind. Moving forward please describe what drivers you were using at the time.

For instance I was using a/d/s/ PX series drivers with my Soundstream D series amps back in 1999?


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

got quite a few top end amps - Brax, McIntosh, SS DaVinci, PPI,.. I would have a hard time to pick the one that is above the others,...every one has its positive and negative sides, .....in last system I have run BRAX.


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

Some young guy on the other side of the country told me my Steg MSK 50sc sounded best. 

I like my Desiderio a lot, it's big and bad ass looking.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Zapco z150.6ap just for its neutral sound, perhaps not the best midbass I’ve heard... a 400.2 for midbass would be good... and use the two channels of the 150.6ap for a sub

or perhaps...

Genesis series 3 dual mono is likely a better midbass amp I think, perhaps a dmx even... 🥰


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

McIntosh mc431, these things are non existent in the sound reproduction, completely neutral and quiet.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

LBaudio said:


> got quite a few top end amps - Brax, McIntosh, SS DaVinci, PPI,.. I would have a hard time to pick the one that is above the others,...every one has its positive and negative sides, .....in last system I have run BRAX.


You think the Brax sounds “Too Clean” or “Clinical” ??

I’ve never heard one I’m just quoting what I’ve heard others say.

I’m a person that likes warm, smooth amps though and I know some do not care for any “coloration” of the sound.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Class D: Ground Zero GZHA Mini series, they simply work. They have very little floor noise, good power, never get hot, well built, and small in size. Probably the cleanest class D I have heard yet. 

Class A/B: Morel MPS 4.400 and Ground Zero GZPA 4SQ - Barely any floor noise, very good channel separation, never get hot, well built, and more practical in size vs other options of similar performance. Also, the prices aren't as extreme as other options.


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## soundstreamer (Jun 2, 2015)

Mine would have to be my old Soundstream Reference 500 and 200. Great little amps that put out plenty of power and looked great as well. Wish never sold my 500 but still holding onto my 200.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Ge0 said:


> Oddly enough heavily modified Soundstream D60, D100, and D200 amps. Easy to upgrade. Absolute minimum signal path. Biased Class A generated a ton of heat but sounded buttery smooth.


Years back, we had a shop that sold soundstream amps and subs, denon heads, and ads speakers. They had a guy that worked there that had an active system and ran I think D 100s and D200s bridged to every speaker in the car. Each tweet and midbass had its own amp as well as each sub. My cousin had a maxima at the time and bought the exact set up, but only ran 2 amps. That was a clean sounding car and those amps, yep.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

Mcintosh mc440 - That i still have but managed to lose one of the end caps. Being a young kid used to deck power or cheaper xplod amps, this thing was a game changer for me. Ran focal comp up front (don’t remember the series but something around $800 circa 99) and old school punch 6x9 in the rear.


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

miniSQ said:


> easy. PPI A600.2


I had one of those, too!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

BJG said:


> I had one of those, too!


i still have one...in showroom condition


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Right now the Helix V Twelve is the best car amp I have ever heard. Or, is it just the speakers


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> Right now the Helix V Twelve is the best car amp I have ever heard. Or, is it just the speakers
> View attachment 297672


holy s**t! Now that’s a damn nice setup, perfectly on axis, I bet that’s a joy to listen to.

The V8 and V12 are without a doubt some of the best class D you can get.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

I always loved the alpine MRV-1000 The 2 and 4 channel variety. Never had an issue w them


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

cman said:


> holy s**t! Now that’s a damn nice setup, perfectly on axis, I bet that’s a joy to listen to.
> 
> The V8 and V12 are without a doubt some of the best class D you can get.


Yeah. These drivers are at a whole new level of performance over anything I have tried in the past. I like listening to them so much that I am going to build home monitors from them to listen to at my work desk. I spend a lot more time working than I do driving.

I'll suffer and put my Utopia M setup in the car


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## BadSS (Feb 2, 2008)

Best amps I’ve owned so far (still running them) are the old Hifonics Gen X amps. They do exactly what they’re supposed to do – accurately amplifies the source signal without adding any noise (zero audibly). I’m a big-time noise floor snob and all other amps I’ve tried/tested so far have added at least some level of noise (although most would probably consider acceptable).

Previous car used Kef B200, 8” or Vifa MG18, 7” woofers with Seas 27TFFNC/G tweeters - currently due to space limitations, running Alpine SPX-17PRO woofers and the same Seas tweeters. Plans to custom fit and upgrade the front stage speakers soon. Will keep running the amps as long as they’re working – lol.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

ExoTicLeveL said:


> Hands down old school copper Tru Tech Tube amps, have owned the 7.4T and its most warm and pleasent sounding amp! Can listen to music for hours.
> 
> 
> I know youve owned plenty of Trus and high end equipment, how would you compare the hybrid tubes against the dual mono? Cheers bud


tru coppers where designed/built by abyss, they are by far the best amps tru tech has ever sold. the abyss DM is another level, love the hybrid and tube tru coppers, i have them in my 991.1 twin turbo s.


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

Zuki Eleets


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Sinfoni Shadow 50.2 SPX because of its overbuilt effortless authority


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

cman said:


> You think the Brax sounds “Too Clean” or “Clinical” ??
> 
> I’ve never heard one I’m just quoting what I’ve heard others say.
> 
> I’m a person that likes warm, smooth amps though and I know some do not care for any “coloration” of the sound.


u got pm


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Theslaking said:


> Sound Monitor PAX 3A - 3P
> 
> Separate power source and amplifier connected via XLR. Clean, small, powerful, and unique.


pic plz?


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

I'm going with this one...

OG Alpine V12 in the picture with the three OG JL 10W6s. That amp "only" made 400w. Don't get me wrong - that 'glass trunk well install (tire is under that Formica disc) has two hidden vents and is deceptively large - but it blew people's minds. It was a SQ install that could kiss 140dB. The door panels would "breathe", I could flip quarters on the open moonroof. And it retained it's composure all the way up to 11. 










I actually still own this car. Too many great memories and history.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

So far the Helix V8 has been my best amp. I keep wanting to hate it but it keeps impressing me every step of the way. No noise, powerful, small footprint, and one of the best DSP's included. I keep lusting over Mosconi but just can't seem to justify the purchase. I just took a 6 hour drive. When I stopped and put my hand on the amp it was barely warm. I'm sold.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

geolemon said:


> I actually still own this car. Too many great memories and history.


Was that car at Custom Radio?


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## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

Maybe not the best I’ve owned but the one I most regret selling and my favorite was my Phoenix Gold Zen 9. One amp ran my whole system. Medical bills suck!


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> Right now the Helix V Twelve is the best car amp I have ever heard. Or, is it just the speakers
> View attachment 297672


This is the correct amplifier. Nothing more . If someone needs a quick and simple processor solution, this is the product for them. No one with demanding sound will be satisfied with this amplifier.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

CASKP said:


> This is the correct amplifier. Nothing more . If someone needs a quick and simple processor solution, this is the product for them. *No one with demanding sound will be satisfied with this amplifier.*


I think you missed my point. The quality of your speakers is just as important as the amp driving them...


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Ge0 said:


> I think you missed my point. The quality of your speakers is just as important as the amp driving them...


He just went onto another thread and stated most class D amplifiers have inferior sound quality. While this is an open community, I disagree. There are several class D topology amplifiers that have great sound quality. One of my favorites is the GZHA line from Ground Zero.


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> I think you missed my point. The quality of your speakers is just as important as the amp driving them...


I think the quality of the speakers in this exact case requires a much better amplifier than the Helix V Twelve


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

ANS said:


> He just went onto another thread and stated all class D amplifiers have poor sound. Not sure if it is worth the time with this one lol.


Show me a digital amplifier that has sound comparable to very good analogue units ?


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

CASKP said:


> Show me a digital amplifier that has sound comparable to very good analogue units ?


I never stated that there is a class D topology amplifier that does have better sound quality than a class a/b, class a, class g or class h amplifier. I don't believe in making a blanket statement that sums up an entire range of products. I have heard awful-sounding class D amplifiers and at the same time, I have heard even worse class a/b amplifiers. I only will share my thoughts on products I have real-world experience with.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Theslaking said:


> Was that car at Custom Radio?


Nope - unless I was randomly up there one day. I did 100% of the work on it myself.
Bought the amps at Stereo Advantage.
Bought the JLs at Daryll's.

My real tie to Custom Radio didn't come until years later, first few years Kustom Workz opened when I was recruited out of IT as a full time manager and part time fabricator. The owner paid way above average wages and we hired CR's best fabricator, two of their best installers, and their head sales guy. 

Eventually the owner grew tired of chewing through his inheritance, his retired dad came in to advise, and they merged business with his brothers motorcycle business that he had... I don't know the details but I know his brother helped bail out an Italian bike dealer who didn't have a great service reputation (wouldn't work on non-Italian bikes)... and now they have the rights to sell those brands. But at any rate it's a motorcycle shop now, I don't think any of the old crew is there.

I wish because we used to sell Rockford Fosgate and I'm still leaving towards buying two RF Power T-series amps.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

ANS said:


> I never stated that there is a class D topology amplifier that does have better sound quality than a class a/b, class a, class g or class h amplifier. I don't believe in making a blanket statement that sums up an entire range of products. I have heard awful-sounding class D amplifiers and at the same time, I have heard even worse class a/b amplifiers. I only will share my thoughts on products I have real-world experience with.


For over 21 years I have been selling and installing Hi-End systems in my customers' cars. I know the current products and those that have not been on the market for a long time. I know what and how to play. In many cases, after installing V Twelve, the customer came back and we replaced the amplifier with an analogue one + processor. The customer couldn't listen to the V Twelve because the sound from that amplifier is just bad. Of course we are talking about customers who have good home audio equipment. An undemanding customer will have no problem with it.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

CASKP said:


> For over 21 years I have been selling and installing Hi-End systems in my customers' cars. I know the current products and those that have not been on the market for a long time. I know what and how to play. In many cases, after installing V Twelve, the customer came back and we replaced the amplifier with an analogue one + processor. The customer couldn't listen to the V Twelve because the sound from that amplifier is just bad. Of course we are talking about customers who have good home audio equipment. An undemanding customer will have no problem with it.


In my opinion, it is more than a demanding vs undemanding customer. Most customers have a budget variable that plays a large role in the process of selecting equipment. Also, practicality is another variable such as how much space is the customer willing to sacrifice. These variables apply to many customers regardless of how nice of a home theater system they may have. I have not had the opportunity to use a Helix V Twelve so I cannot comment on the product.


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

ANS said:


> In my opinion, it is more than a demanding vs undemanding customer. Most customers have a budget variable that plays a large role in the process of selecting equipment. Also, practicality is another variable such as how much space is the customer willing to sacrifice. These variables apply to many customers regardless of how nice of a home theater system they may have. I have not had the opportunity to use a Helix V Twelve so I cannot comment on the product.



You're right. However, budget is not an issue if you want to build a good performing SQ system . You can do it on analog equipment and not exceed your budget. However there are also cars in which you can't do the installation with a lot of equipment. Last year I made a Ferrari California with V Twelve and it was the only reasonable solution.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

CASKP said:


> You're right. However, budget is not an issue if you want to build a good performing SQ system . You can do it on analog equipment and not exceed your budget. However there are also cars in which you can't do the installation with a lot of equipment. Last year I made a Ferrari California with V Twelve and it was the only reasonable solution.


For the most part, I agree. Have you used the Morel MPS amplifier line? I have had great success with them. I am very impressed with the performance given the size and price points. I have tried using the DLS CC line in the past for a lower-priced and smaller size class a/b option but had issues with heat management.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

CASKP said:


> Show me a digital amplifier that has sound comparable to very good analogue units ?


There's no such thing as a "digital amplifier".
All amp classes are analog.


https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/amplifier/amplifier-classes.html



The only controversy here is the perpetuation of an old stereotype of class D from back when 
a) switching technology was not mature and devices were not fast enough to facilitate full-range use, 

and that was exacerbated by

b) initially in car audio, class D amps were introduced to make things cheaper, so they quickly became inherently associated with cheaper amps.

Just like Tesla proved electric cars can be better than golf carts - class D amps can be better than flea market junk.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

ANS said:


> For the most part, I agree. Have you used the Morel MPS amplifier line? I have had great success with them. I am very impressed with the performance given the size and price points. I have tried using the DLS CC line in the past for a lower-priced and smaller size class a/b option but had issues with heat management.


Unfortunately, no . They never made it into my hands. I install a lot of gear from Helix, Brax, Focal, Audison, Ground Zero - SQ line only, Accuton, Eton, Scan Speak, Steg, Arc Audio, German Maestro, AudioControl, some Morel - no amps, RS Audio, MicroPrecision and many others. Generally I try to meet the taste of customers who are looking for the sound similar to Home Audio sets they have at home. Very often I use older head units, processors, amplifiers, speakers. - Alpine F#1, Pioneer ODR & DEX, Sony XES and similar


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

geolemon said:


> There's no such thing as a "digital amplifier".
> All amp classes are analog.
> 
> 
> ...


You're not quite right. Text with text , life and listening is the most important thing. I know how new digital amplifiers sound - a lot of them pass through my hands. It is known, that I will not listen to everything, because there is no such possibility. But looking at SQ systems and the quality of sound in car amplifiers - still this subject and their quality is far beyond e.g. home TacT Millenium. One of the most famous and reference digital amplifiers ever made. Such a design in Car Audio has not been created yet and will not be created. It would be horrendously expensive.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

CASKP said:


> Unfortunately, no . They never made it into my hands. I install a lot of gear from Helix, Brax, Focal, Audison, Ground Zero - SQ line only, Accuton, Eton, Scan Speak, Steg, Arc Audio, German Maestro, AudioControl, some Morel - no amps, RS Audio, MicroPrecision and many others. Generally I try to meet the taste of customers who are looking for the sound similar to Home Audio sets they have at home. Very often I use older head units, processors, amplifiers, speakers. - Alpine F#1, Pioneer ODR & DEX, Sony XES and similar


Have you used the Focal FPX 4.400 SQ? I understand they were designed by Zed?


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

ANS said:


> Have you used the Focal FPX 4.400 SQ? I understand they were designed by Zed?


I have tuned my system with these amps several times. Unfortunately I cannot say good words about them. I do not sell them - I prefer other designs.

Unfortunately, times are bad. Manufacturers try to make the cheapest amplifier and sell it as expensive as possible. SMD technology makes it possible. Just look a few years back. Audison amplifiers from VR, LR, Thesis series. The material input was much higher (good capacitors, resistors, operational amplifiers, transistors). Right now, manufacturers don't have to care about good components. It is rare to find amplifiers that have, for example, Elna capacitors. Rubicon. It used to be the order of the day - now it is not. 

I repair a lot of amplifiers from the old golden years - customers send me their old designs and ask me to check them, change capacitors, adjust them, take measurements. They prefer to restore a good old amplifier rather than buy a new poor unit.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

CASKP said:


> I have tuned my system with these amps several times. Unfortunately I cannot say good words about them. I do not sell them - I prefer other designs.
> 
> Unfortunately, times are bad. Manufacturers try to make the cheapest amplifier and sell it as expensive as possible. SMD technology makes it possible. Just look a few years back. Audison amplifiers from VR, LR, Thesis series. The material input was much higher (good capacitors, resistors, operational amplifiers, transistors). Right now, manufacturers don't have to care about good components. It is rare to find amplifiers that have, for example, Elna capacitors. Rubicon. It used to be the order of the day - now it is not.
> 
> I repair a lot of amplifiers from the old golden years - customers send me their old designs and ask me to check them, change capacitors, adjust them, take measurements. They prefer to restore a good old amplifier rather than buy a new poor unit.


I understand your point of view and agree with a lot of the current manufacturers. During these times you have to be careful not to pay for just a brand's name.


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

ANS said:


> I understand your point of view and agree with a lot of the current manufacturers. During these times you have to be careful not to pay for just a brand's name.


In many cases, it is. Unfortunately, these companies no longer produce products at the level they once did.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ANS said:


> Have you used the Focal FPX 4.400 SQ? I understand they were designed by Zed?


I had the FPX 4.800 and it was junk. It's the only time I've ever bothered to return an amp. I have one of each of the FPD amps though and they've performed well.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

I like a Good class A/B as well just because I have OCD and part of me wonders... But in reality there is no hard data showing high end class D amplifiers are inferior that can be measured. It's 100% subjective. I honestly only run the A/B's myself because I like to feed my baseless thoughts about class D somehow being inferior... but on paper it doesnt check out. Im not saying it is not true that class D does not sound as natural or the music has a altered flow to it... but its not measurable at least....

Here's distortion and frequency response measurements from one of Eton's new Power series class D amplifiers... This is ****ing low distortion.... this is as low or lower than a large majority of Class A/B amplifiers. Its comparable to many brax amplifiers and lower than the Helix C four in measured THD according to 3rd party testing from the German car and hifi magazine with their Audio Precision test.

Here's a great example... its lower than the Zapco Z-150.6AP (which tests at 0.02% at full power), damping factor is similar... and signal to noise is higher on the Eton....And the Eton has such a high switching frequency it has response out to 50khz with a small bump at the end from the output filter... but its way outside the range of human hearing and only a decibal or two bump in FR at 50khz... I am not saying the Eton sounds the same or better than the Zapco AP.... but I am also not saying that it does not... Im just showing the very interesting data...



















And the Zapco Z-150.6AP below...


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Here's the Helix v12 below just for $hits & giggles


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

LOL, some of you would fvck up a wet dream, you amaze me


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## zak (Oct 2, 2007)

I think class D amps can measure well, with low distortion, great dynamics, tight bass - all while using typically less power, less space, and typically cooler than class AB. Great class D amps are probably everything some folks would want, and I would not argue the choice. Class D is typically described as clean sounding - at least, that's how I've heard folks describe it.

For me, class D can sound exciting at times, but for the long term, I prefer class AB. Class D has that nice tight bass, but for me, I notice that tightness all the way up through the high frequencies, which (for me) does not sound as natural - shortened decays, is one example. Some folks love that "clean" sound, but I don't ever want to find myself describing the sonics in my car as "clean". Just my preference, and I certainly respect the preferences of those who have opinions different than mine.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Ge0 said:


> Chris, interesting topic to start without explaining what loudspeakers were paired with the amp. I've performed a lot of research lately into raw drivers and find the differences much more profound than amp selection. Now if we could all start with Dynaudio Esotar2 drivers then it would be a level playing field. But, that is not going to happen.
> 
> If everyone does not mind. Moving forward please describe what drivers you were using at the time.
> 
> For instance I was using a/d/s/ PX series drivers with my Soundstream D series amps back in 1999?


I believe that would change the question to "best system....".


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

zak said:


> I think class D amps can measure well, with low distortion, great dynamics, tight bass - all while using typically less power, less space, and typically cooler than class AB. Great class D amps are probably everything some folks would want, and I would not argue the choice. Class D is typically described as clean sounding - at least, that's how I've heard folks describe it.
> 
> For me, class D can sound exciting at times, but for the long term, I prefer class AB. Class D has that nice tight bass, but for me, I notice that tightness all the way up through the high frequencies, which (for me) does not sound as natural - shortened decays, is one example. Some folks love that "clean" sound, but I don't ever want to find myself describing the sonics in my car as "clean". Just my preference, and I certainly respect the preferences of those who have opinions different than mine.


Yeah i get it. I have one class D amp that has a kind of natural tone to it... but so far my Zapco AP is my favorit which on paper has higher distortion.... Its like a warm sound surrounding you when listening to it... maybe its distortion... But I have a couple more amps I have picked up recently im going to try out. Due to size size and efficiency reasons im looking for something that sounds as good but is smaller than the Zapco... I also picked up a TRU class A line conditioner, Im going to try putting it in front of a high quality class D amp to see if it breathes a bit more life back into it... 

Like I said, I dont know for sure if its just my mind, or what but there are certain nuances that are only present in certain amplifiers regardless of the distortion numbers... I am not sure if its class A/B or D dependent... but its definitely interesting to learn about.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I meant Kustom Workz anyway. Custom Radio had multiple shops. I was referring to the one by Mayer Bro's. I used to go in there a lot for install gear. Owner/manager was Mike? I didn't realize which shop you managed. I knew it was one around here though. I used to go Daryl's to get metered all the time because they had a term pro and only charged $15. Or free depending on the worker. I bought most my stuff from the Underground in NT or Soundtrack in Olean because they carried big selections of Eclipse gear. I now dislike the Underground. The last audio comp they had around here was sponsored by them. After competitors got here they changed the rules. Some trailered vehicles and couldn't compete how they expected. It was BS. Oh sweet nostalgia. 

What's funny is everyone I know thay rides bikes hates that shop now and the response is always " it went down hill after the dad left". 

Either way I seen that install before, maybe just other pics. I like it.


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

cman said:


> Here's the Helix v12 below just for $hits & giggles
> 
> View attachment 298150
> 
> View attachment 298151


Of course - measurements will not show the sound of an amplifier and that is a fact. On paper many things look promising. Unfortunately that is where it ends.


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

cman said:


> Yeah i get it. I have one class D amp that has a kind of natural tone to it... but so far my Zapco AP is my favorit which on paper has higher distortion.... Its like a warm sound surrounding you when listening to it... maybe its distortion... But I have a couple more amps I have picked up recently im going to try out. Due to size size and efficiency reasons im looking for something that sounds as good but is smaller than the Zapco... I also picked up a TRU class A line conditioner, Im going to try putting it in front of a high quality class D amp to see if it breathes a bit more life back into it...
> 
> Like I said, I dont know for sure if its just my mind, or what but there are certain nuances that are only present in certain amplifiers regardless of the distortion numbers... I am not sure if its class A/B or D dependent... but its definitely interesting to learn about.


I agree that paper imperfect amps play well. Just measure tube amps that have a lot of harmonic distortion. It turns out that the amount of harmonic distortion decides about the sound that a person "likes".


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## racecarsbasscars (Feb 27, 2021)

well sound and budget is subjective but im digging my

SFB 8000D for the bassbot on bass: SUNDOWN AUDIO SFB-8000D
for my mids and highs, the JP234 : Down4Sound JP234 - 4 Channel Amplifier

for the daily:

Not even kidding you, the DynaAudio VW upgrade sounds great


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## CASKP (Nov 20, 2019)

racecarsbasscars said:


> well sound and budget is subjective but im digging my
> 
> SFB 8000D for the bassbot on bass: SUNDOWN AUDIO SFB-8000D
> for my mids and highs, the JP234 : Down4Sound JP234 - 4 Channel Amplifier
> ...


Dynaudio in VW is ok but the original Alpine amplifier is too weak to drive this set properly. Of course I have pulled the Dynaudio speakers out of the VW many times replacing them. 

If you are happy with your kit that is the most important thing. Unfortunately I've heard too much, assembled too much. My hearing has become very picky after so many years in this business. Unfortunately, I can't get enough of new amps. For me the good amps are the old analogue designs.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

The Dynaudio drivers out of the Volvos are great when powered with a good amp. They are not esotars but they are still damn good sounding drivers.. the midwoofers at least...the tweeters I didnt like as much... but the midwoofers have an amazing sound.

I’ve never heard the VW ones..


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Theslaking said:


> I meant Kustom Workz anyway. Custom Radio had multiple shops. I was referring to the one by Mayer Bro's. I used to go in there a lot for install gear. Owner/manager was Mike? I didn't realize which shop you managed. I knew it was one around here though. I used to go Daryl's to get metered all the time because they had a term pro and only charged $15. Or free depending on the worker. I bought most my stuff from the Underground in NT or Soundtrack in Olean because they carried big selections of Eclipse gear. I now dislike the Underground. The last audio comp they had around here was sponsored by them. After competitors got here they changed the rules. Some trailered vehicles and couldn't compete how they expected. It was BS. Oh sweet nostalgia.
> 
> What's funny is everyone I know thay rides bikes hates that shop now and the response is always " it went down hill after the dad left".
> 
> Either way I seen that install before, maybe just other pics. I like it.


(Sorry all for the side conversation)

Mike was the owner, yes. And technically still is as far as I know - but I haven't even been to the new motorcycle dealership. I was only at the shop at the corner by Mayer Brothers. 

I believe his brother had the motorcycle business, and their dad stepped in because of his CEO expertise and Mike tended to spend unwisely... In some ways that benefited the shop, but weren't sustainable - and so it didn't. I'm sure he wanted to stop the bleeding. So the family came together. All good people. 

I didn't know the dad left, but it makes sense based on my experience that dad would have been the only source for structure and accountability - things that any business needs.

Also - the old shop also wasn't helped by another person in the office who I won't name, who had been involved from day-1 and turned out to take advantage and apparently was siphoning money and goods... who was managing the money. He encouraged the reckless spending and was consistently an obstacle to my suggestions to objectively manage money/purchases/accounts using my IT and business backgrounds. Now we all know why I couldn't get my systems in place. 😉

But still some great experiences, good times from the golden years. 

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

CASKP said:


> Unfortunately, no . They never made it into my hands. I install a lot of gear from Helix, Brax, Focal, Audison, Ground Zero - SQ line only, Accuton, Eton, Scan Speak, Steg, Arc Audio, German Maestro, AudioControl, some Morel - no amps, RS Audio, MicroPrecision and many others. Generally I try to meet the taste of customers who are looking for the sound similar to Home Audio sets they have at home. Very often I use older head units, processors, amplifiers, speakers. - Alpine F#1, Pioneer ODR & DEX, Sony XES and similar


I would love to see some pictures of your work, the equipment list looks awesome. I wish we could get our hands on more eton products here in the US.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

CASKP said:


> Of course - measurements will not show the sound of an amplifier and that is a fact. On paper many things look promising. Unfortunately that is where it ends.


It's not as mysterious as that sounds, though. These aren't ghosts.

If you repair amps, you have a scope. You can sweep, observe waveforms. We can even reference the Richard Clark $10k challenge - basically all he's doing is making sure the amps aren't clipping and are making the same amount of power and don't have filters or any other cheater ways of creating a "tell" - and no one has succeeded in hearing a difference.

To me, that seems likely accountable to two things:
1) A class D amp clips harder and sounds way worse when clipping... But to me that's no reason to rule them out. No SQ fan would run their SQ amps clipping, either.

2) Like we always say - install and setup are important. Assuming the amps aren't inherently crap - the gains need to be set properly. (Related, but not point 1)

Here's where I even venture that class D could be utilized to be superior to AB:

I have this Alpine V12 amp in storage. It's conservatively rated at 25x4. Class AB.








Compare that to a RF T400x5ad at 100x4, which has like half the footprint and a comparable (time adjusted) price.









Scenario A- I run the 25x2 amp just below clipping.
Scenario B - I run the 100x4 amp with the gains so conservatively set, the amp is really only doing 30x4 or 40x4.

In Scenario A, I have classic great class AB performance, as the amp was designed.

In scenario B, I'm so far below clipping - I even have double my available rated wattage as headroom. Running it that low also improves the THD and other SQ related specs, just like the graphs above. That amp already has benchmark SQ measurements way better than factory specs (reference) - already comparable to the AB amp - and then I'm proposing running it even deeper into the SQ realm.

So I think that scenario especially begs the question -
What spec would you measure that would show the inferior performance you are implying?
And then - do you think that would hold up in my comparison (normalizing the amps to power of the lesser amp)?


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

CASKP said:


> Dynaudio in VW is ok but the original Alpine amplifier is too weak to drive this set properly. Of course I have pulled the Dynaudio speakers out of the VW many times replacing them.
> 
> If you are happy with your kit that is the most important thing. Unfortunately I've heard too much, assembled too much. My hearing has become very picky after so many years in this business. Unfortunately, I can't get enough of new amps. For me the good amps are the old analogue designs.


Ok I got a question for you which is a better midbass woofer for a 3 way (not 2 way)

Scanspeak Gold
Eton Onyx
Brax ML3

I’m looking for a strong but accurate midbass, it must have a neo magnet or less than 70mm mounting depth due to size implications inside my door.

second question... how does the Eton onyx compare to the Eton core series...?


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

cman said:


> Ok I got a question for you which is a better midbass woofer for a 3 way (not 2 way)
> 
> Scanspeak Gold
> Eton Onyx
> ...


No one can answer that for one reason:
What's your installation strategy for achieving the type of midbass you are looking for? Does your car facilitate that strategy? 

What driver best suits THAT installation alignment - that's what you need to ask... But first you have to provide those details. Otherwise they will all be wrong answers, other than by coincidence.

Unfortunately for a simple answer sake - the midbass driver itself really matters less than those other installation details and strategy.. even if you compare excursion capability, Qts, Fs... You can't consider them outside the context of "what's best for this strategy". 😉


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

geolemon said:


> No one can answer that for one reason:
> What's your installation strategy for achieving the type of midbass you are looking for? Does your car facilitate that strategy?
> 
> What driver best suits THAT installation alignment - that's what you need to ask... But first you have to provide those details. Otherwise they will all be wrong answers, other than by coincidence.
> ...



Look Im just looking for the guys opinion on these items since he has experience with them. I pretty much spelled it out, Im looking for one with strong midbass for a 3 way between those choices. I've already modeled them in WinIsd, But companies commonly lie about linear excursion. I dont need a lesson of how to install something Im just looking for his subjective opinion on how they performed and which one was his favorite. Ive already dug through all the specs thats how i know which ones will fit in my setup.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

geolemon said:


> No one can answer that for one reason:
> What's your installation strategy for achieving the type of midbass you are looking for? Does your car facilitate that strategy?
> 
> What driver best suits THAT installation alignment - that's what you need to ask... But first you have to provide those details. Otherwise they will all be wrong answers, other than by coincidence.
> ...


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

The few people here that have the mounting depth and can also afford to run the Brax ML3 have been extremely happy both with its output and ability to dig deep cleanly. 
Search for audiogals build thread for more info.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

well it started out a cool topic but like i said, you guys would f up a wet dream, unbelievable


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Best I've owned was a Zuki Eleets 5-Channel Hybrid. Class A/B on the 4 channels, plus class D on sub. This was my pre-DSP era (except for the built-in DSP in my PRS-880), so I'm sure it could've sounded much better, but it was just such an improvement over other amps I directly swapped it with at the time (JL Slash, HD & XD and Arc Audio XDI).


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## Barnaby (Aug 25, 2009)

Porsche said:


> well it started out a cool topic but like i said, you guys would f up a wet dream, unbelievable


While I have a huge tolerance for noise, I agree. Sadly it's same as any hobbyist site. When you get into that last .1% of anything fun it's an arguement or disagreement. From Car audio to home theater to car performance to furniture making to fish tanks to lawn care....doesn't matter.


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

Porsche said:


> well it started out a cool topic but like i said, you guys would f up a wet dream, unbelievable


Let’s see if we can’t get it back on track. I found this looking around for some info on their subs. Looks like it might be pretty cool. I don’t think it is out yet.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

SNCTMPL said:


> Let’s see if we can’t get it back on track. I found this looking around for some info on their subs. Looks like it might be pretty cool. I don’t think it is out yet.
> View attachment 298264
> View attachment 298265
> View attachment 298266


Please keep me updated on this one. On paper it seems ideal! I’ve reached out to several dealers and even Xcelsus directly and to be honest haven’t had a single reply. That amp’s out there though.


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## finfinder (Apr 15, 2006)

Porsche said:


> that you have owned, what is it and why? not interested in "they all the sound the same or a watt is a watt", best amp you have owned


Mine was an old school Rockford Punch 200. It was my first bass amp in the early 90's and it lasted 17 years. Half the time I was running it at 2 ohms mono... didn't matter, it cranked out bass that would rattle everything in the car...one tough mother.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Porsche said:


> that you have owned, what is it and why? not interested in "they all the sound the same or a watt is a watt", best amp you have owned


each one of my systems has been different. I’d like to say my current setup is the best sounding. It’s not necessarily because of the amplifiers. That being said, I don’t look for a specific “sound” from the amplifiers. I tend towards clean signal, reliability, engineering, then a “wow” factor.
As you can see, the “wow” factor plays into this system a little bit. You’d never EVER expect to see two six channel McIntosh amps in the back of a Toyota Corolla.

the next iteration of a system will be at the Pro/Am or Pro IASCA level. That’s a few years away as the vehicle (1963 Beetle) is being built now. Think up front everything. Once you go up front bass, you’ll never go back. Besides, I have a clear front end with huge room for speaker placement in that VW 😈


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## spudicus (Sep 15, 2015)

For me it's my Ground Zero GZPA Reference 4. When I hooked it up to my ScanSpeak Revelator R2904 and Illuminator 18WU. While listening to Radiohead with my eyes closed, it felt like I could reach out and touch Thom. It sounded like he was right in front of me.


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## spent (Feb 12, 2006)

Mine would be two that are fighting it out for the trunk: Phoenix Gold Zen9 and Soundstream Reference Class A Picasso. The Zen9 wins if price was no object but the Picasso does sound amazing. For me the Zen9 is ideal since I don't want an amp with any on board crossovers or dsp type features because my headunit is more than capable of handling all of that. An amp that simply amplifies as cleanly as possible is what I appreciate.


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

For me it’s pretty close between Adcom GFA -5475/5275 and Phoenix gold elite .2 & elite .4

Adcom had tighter and deeper midbass but the elite’s had a better both smoother and more detailed top end. Could of been due to the Adcom’ s being so old???

least favorite - old punch amps from Rockford fosgate as well as alpine’s v12.... those amps made me promise to never buy Rockford or alpine amps again.....


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I would LOVE to hear one of these someday!! The McIntosh MCC602TM
Having owned some of their amps in the past, this has to be absolutely amazing sounding!


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

cman said:


> Look Im just looking for the guys opinion on these items since he has experience with them. I pretty much spelled it out, Im looking for one with strong midbass for a 3 way between those choices. I've already modeled them in WinIsd, But companies commonly lie about linear excursion. I dont need a lesson of how to install something Im just looking for his subjective opinion on how they performed and which one was his favorite. Ive already dug through all the specs thats how i know which ones will fit in my setup.


🤦

Then start a thread.

Analogy -
You've effectively asked "What's the best vehicle? F-150? Tesla Model 3? Or Yamaha FZ-09?"

Then when we say "we can't tell you until you tell us what you want to do with your vehicle" - you act like you don't understand the answer.

Bottom line - midbass drivers DON'T MAKE MIDBASS. Swapping stock drivers for flat-out subwoofers won't even make more bass in most stock doors.
You need a strategy to make bass.
Then your drivers will select themselves - the ones that have the best specs for that application.
Free air? Sealed? Vented or PR? These are three different drivers.

It's just like buying a subwoofer.
You never buy a subwoofer first, then figure out what type of enclosure second... you decide what sound you want, that determines what type of enclosure you want (and how much space you want to give up) - and "the best" driver for that particular enclosure and sound goal follow. 

You don't buy shoes and then grow your foot to fit that size...

But anyway - this is an amp thread.
If you need a better explanation on why your question on midbass doesn't allow for an educated answer - start a thread.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

deleted


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Niebur3 said:


> I would LOVE to hear one of these someday!! The McIntosh MCC602TM
> Having owned some of their amps in the past, this has to be absolutely amazing sounding!
> View attachment 298294


Holy crap, I bet that thing is huge I've never seen that model before


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^That McIntosh is the be all end all amp they make. Scott Buwalda has several of them in his Black Betty


















Hopefully, this post is allowed in this thread.....if not, many apologies.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

geolemon said:


> 🤦
> 
> Then start a thread.
> 
> ...


you should go start a thread yourself sport


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

One amplifier I will mention in hopes that someone else has used it is the Mmats SQ4100 or SQ4160

The Mmats use Toshiba T04P Bipolar/BJT Output transistors... supposedly they are very high quality as good or better than the high speed Sanken transistors and Toshiba provides them exclusively to Mmats.. (although i find that last part a bit hard to believe they probably just made a new part#) And supposedly they have a nice warm sound to them. Which is exactly what I like in an amp.. I hate the sterile lifeless sounding amplifiers

Anyone heard one of these?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Niebur3 said:


> I would LOVE to hear one of these someday!! The McIntosh MCC602TM
> Having owned some of their amps in the past, this has to be absolutely amazing sounding!
> View attachment 298294


I am not sure that one could actually prove that it sounds amazing.

However I do know my Macs look so damned good that the conformation bias to "know that it is amazing" cannot easily be discounted.

It gives it a serious WTF factor.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I am not sure that one could actually prove that it sounds amazing.
> 
> However I do know my Macs look so damned good that the conformation bias to "know that it is amazing" cannot easily be discounted.
> 
> It gives it a serious WTF factor.


Yeah I used to think the same thing until i listened to a few amps back to back.... people always like to talk about "Oh did you level match those amps" .... like ummm no I can turn the gain up and down and it only changes the volume.. it still sounds different...

this has not happened with all amps I've tested.. some are transparent, and some borderline very plain and sterile... but when you get a listen to a good amp with a full bodied sound after listening to an amp with an empty hollow sound I will instantly have a big smile on my face and realize how wrong everyone is that says all amps sound the same. 

There is nothing anyone can tell me to convince me differently, once you hear a good one after a mediocre one, you will never feel any other way again.

And with EQ, I do believe you can adjust the tonality of certain amps to sound better, but I would rather start with an amazing platform and build on that instead of trying to fix a sterile empty sound.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Macintosh amps definitely make me drool. I wonder why they quit making them ? I mean, I know, business reasons I'm sure but still - volume is low on all of this high end stuff. I've thought about buying some off ebay but such an investment in old gear. I know you can send it in to get repaired but still......

Unfortunately I don't have much to contribute to this thread - the amps I like are a quartet of those 25th Anniversary Rockford Fosgate Punch 75 amps. Birth sheet on all of them is 2*215Wrms, or 600Wrms bridged and they definitely have the look. But I'm not going to try and compare them to the jewelry displayed here. Just good solid old school (but not really that old, circa 2001 ???).
(Note they have some heat sink style beauty covers over the wires not installed here yet)


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## Ftwhite (Jun 23, 2018)

CASKP said:


> Of course - measurements will not show the sound of an amplifier and that is a fact. On paper many things look promising. Unfortunately that is where it ends.


It may be a fact to you, but it is not a fact. Sound quality and an amp's sound can indeed be measured. The measurements may not match your opinions or preference, but that is not the same as not being measurable. The problem with judging sound is similar to describing color. It absolutely can be measured, and measured very accurately, however each of us has a faulty sensor, that is interpreted as best as it can be, by our brain. That's where the flaws are. What you hear is not the same as anyone else. What's better to you, might be worse to me. The measurement is accurate. Our interpretation is flawed, and sometimes that flaw sounds great. 

My favorite amp is always the one I am using (JL HD900), otherwise it wouldn't be there. No one can convince me it doesn't sound best, unless you want to pay to do a sound test in my car .


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## zak (Oct 2, 2007)

Ftwhite said:


> ...Sound quality and an amp's sound can indeed be measured...


For me, it's "sound" that can be measured, but not "sound quality" - I believe "sound quality" to be subjective, not objective, for the very reasons you provided - what's better to you, might be worse to me. Someone's perfect measurements might be someone else's dislike. 

Then again, there are those folks who look to measurements as the ultimate deciding factor in purchasing for them a perceived best sound quality. And that's absolutely fine. For those folks, sound quality is objective and not subjective. These folks might look for the best measuring amp that they can afford, and that's the best amp for them.

Which brings us back to what this thread is about - "best amp...". For some, it's amps that measure well, for others, it's based purely on how it sounds to them (regardless of measurements), and for others, it might be some combination of both. Of course, other factors come into play - cost, build quality, warranty, nostalgia, etc. We all have our own reasons for our favorite amp - no need to put anyone down or apply our opinions as absolutes.

Looking forward to others sharing their best amp...


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

cman said:


> Yeah I used to think the same thing until i listened to a few amps back to back.... people always like to talk about "Oh did you level match those amps" .... like ummm no I can turn the gain up and down and it only changes the volume.. it still sounds different...
> 
> this has not happened with all amps I've tested.. some are transparent, and some borderline very plain and sterile... but when you get a listen to a good amp with a full bodied sound after listening to an amp with an empty hollow sound I will instantly have a big smile on my face and realize how wrong everyone is that says all amps sound the same.
> 
> ...


I should have use the sarcastic emoticon.

I don't know if there are better amps, but I have a Phass and an old Nak to compare it too.

The Mac just looks so damned good, it is hard to be convinced otherwise... I wouldn't not want to believe it.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Niebur3 said:


> I would LOVE to hear one of these someday!! The McIntosh MCC602TM
> Having owned some of their amps in the past, this has to be absolutely amazing sounding!
> View attachment 298294


After working with almost all the high end amps IMO Macintosh amps are the best amplifiers I’ve worked with so far, it’s like they’re non existent in the system, zero floor noise, never gets hot, extremely neutral, it’s like completely not in the chain. My next top picks are Genesis and Tru for similar characteristics but one loves to get hot and the other I heard a little floor noise, could be gain matching fault there. If it’s for nice sounding amps I’ll give that to Audison vrx and thesis then mosconi zero, if it’s for sucking out the life and taking away the emotions from the music look no further than JL hd series. This is my opinion so no need to feel hurt if I say that there’s something wrong with the amplifier that your using, after all I’m still a novice.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I also experienced zero noise floor with the Sinfoni amps. Plus they are build like tanks.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

I have a Tru Tungsten T4-RS on order for a customer. We recently signed up to sell Tru Technology. Having no former experience I am excited to see it and how it performs. I will update once I get some hands-on time with it.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

ANS said:


> I have a Tru Tungsten T4-RS on order for a customer. We recently signed up to sell Tru Technology. Having no former experience I am excited to see it and how it performs. I will update once I get some hands-on time with it.


nice! Let us know how it sounds. I like the layout and the components inside the TRU amps.

The TRUs, the zapco APs, and like Jerry mentioned the Sinfonis have really nice components in them if you actually look at the gut shots. So I have faith that they are a high quality product but I’ve never heard one myself.

The internal components is one qualifying factor I look for when buying an amplifier...did they actually use high grade components inside or does it have “Yuscon” or “Cap-Top” capacitors like 99% of other car amplifiers. Sh1t, even JL Audio is using Yuscon.. that’s the same caps Skar audio uses.. shame on you JL charging $1000 and using Yuscon capacitors.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

The best amp is the one that meets your needs, performs flawlessly and makes you happy.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

The measurement vs. sound quality debate reminded me of a Nelson Pass interview I read recently. I'm definitely in his camp:

*audioXpress:* I don’t want to open a whole can of worms, but you seem not to be overly concerned about getting very low distortion. For your First Watt amps you have made the point that at the low levels where most listening takes place, the distortion is very low. Yet, at high level peaks (especially with low- to medium-output power amps), distortion does rise considerably. But people like your amps. Does it have to do with the way the distortion rises, or with the spectral make-up of the distortion?

*NP:* The characteristic I get is the result of simple FET circuits running in Class A. This means minimal or no feedback, low-order harmonic characteristic, and monotonic but pedestrian distortion numbers. That approach usually (not always) delivers the sound that I like, and apparently my taste matches up with a portion of the buying public. The only magic involved takes place in the neural networks between our ears. What happens there is still poorly understood and varies between individuals. Whatever the deal is, ultra low distortion doesn’t seem to have much to do with it.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Catalyx said:


> The measurement vs. sound quality debate reminded me of a Nelson Pass interview I read recently...


To be fair - he's not saying it's not measurable, he's saying it is and simply wasn't the focus of his design.

I think that's the healthiest ground - reality.

These aren't ghosts and supernatural forces, these are real, measurable things. Electrical engineering is science.

And these are also systems that we're dealing with, and that throws LOTS of people. The reason scientific method exists is because systems are inherently multivariate and without that people can misconstrue the cause of things they are hearing. 

And if there's one constant in audio and car audio - it's myths and misconstruances!  Amps, sources, wiring, speakers, damping material, there's nothing people won't blame (or credit) absolutely everything on.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

I received the Tru Tungsten v2 today. I have never used a Tru amplifier and we just recently picked up the line. This was ordered for a customer's install but I decided to test it out beforehand. It reminds me of the old Phoenix Gold MS amplifier because of the layout and heatsink. The amplifier is surprisingly not as heavy as I expected. I like it because it is straight to the point, with no ridiculous cosmetics or packaging to try to make it seem like something more. I cracked it open and was very impressed with the overall build quality. Every solder point was perfect. The layout is simple, clean, and elegant. Truly, top-notch components with four Burr-Brown OP Amps (one per channel), Rubycon capacitors for power supply, Panasonic capacitors for each channel sitting on the rail, Wima components, and more. This is the competition version with upgrades per my request. Tru amplifiers are only 4-ohm stable stereo unless you ask specifically for them to build it 2 ohms stable or even bridgeable. They do not believe in adding additional pieces in line with the circuit board unless necessary. They expressed to me their desire to make the amplifier as efficient as possible and most of their customers use 4-ohm drivers so they focus on high voltage setups.

Here are some photos:



































I did a listening test and compared it to a Morel I had on hand as well as a Ground Zero. So...apparently, my lack of sleep caught up to me because I wired the switcher board out of phase to the Tru amplifier. I spent 20-30 minutes listening wondering why I had no bass. Yep, I had a moment, it happens to everyone. Once I resolved my self-inflicted issue, I started testing and was immediately impressed. The Tru amplifier had more detail compared to the Morel. I am normally not good with analogies or comparisons so I will do my best. It was like someone flipped the switch from 1080p (already very impressive) to 4k (wow!). The floor noise was also incredibly low. I had to place my ear near the speaker to hear any noise at idle. The bass sounded tighter, the midrange and higher frequencies sounded lush, and when compared to the Morel, it sounded as if the Morel had artifacts in the signal, it was that impressive. Now compared to the Ground Zero GZUA 2 Channel (Plus model), it was a close call. I could honestly go either way, but it isn't a fair comparison. Ground Zero is twice the physical size and nearly 2-3 times heavier. The Ground Zero had more transistors per channel, more capacitance. The fact Tru could extract so much SQ and power from such a small chassis is impressive to me. I also appreciate the fact, the Tru has individual gain controls for each channel and there is no crossover card to possibly "color" the signal. I am positive our customer is going to be impressed, I know I am.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

ANS said:


> I received the Tru Tungsten v2 today. I have never used a Tru amplifier and we just recently picked up the line. This was ordered for a customer's install but I decided to test it out beforehand. It reminds me of the old Phoenix Gold MS amplifier because of the layout and heatsink. The amplifier is surprisingly not as heavy as I expected. I like it because it is straight to the point, with no ridiculous cosmetics or packaging to try to make it seem like something more. I cracked it open and was very impressed with the overall build quality. Every solder point was perfect. The layout is simple, clean, and elegant. Truly, top-notch components with Burr-Brown OP Amps, Rubycon capacitors, Wima components, and more. This is the competition version with upgrades per my request. Tru amplifiers are only 4-ohm stable stereo unless you ask specifically for them to build it 2 ohms stable or even bridgeable. They do not believe in adding additional pieces in line with the circuit board unless necessary. They expressed to me their desire to make the amplifier as efficient as possible and most of their customers use 4-ohm drivers so they focus on high voltage setups.
> 
> Here are some photos:
> 
> ...


wow that dual op amp board is sweet. There’s pretty much the best components one could ask for in this amplifier... very nice


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

ANS said:


> I received the Tru Tungsten v2 today. I have never used a Tru amplifier and we just recently picked up the line. This was ordered for a customer's install but I decided to test it out beforehand. It reminds me of the old Phoenix Gold MS amplifier because of the layout and heatsink. The amplifier is surprisingly not as heavy as I expected. I like it because it is straight to the point, with no ridiculous cosmetics or packaging to try to make it seem like something more. I cracked it open and was very impressed with the overall build quality. Every solder point was perfect. The layout is simple, clean, and elegant. Truly, top-notch components with Burr-Brown OP Amps, Rubycon capacitors, Wima components, and more. This is the competition version with upgrades per my request. Tru amplifiers are only 4-ohm stable stereo unless you ask specifically for them to build it 2 ohms stable or even bridgeable. They do not believe in adding additional pieces in line with the circuit board unless necessary. They expressed to me their desire to make the amplifier as efficient as possible and most of their customers use 4-ohm drivers so they focus on high voltage setups.
> 
> Here are some photos:
> 
> ...


Like I said, I’m not looking for nothing special from an amplifier but to just amplify the signal without additives and Macintosh, Tru and genesis does that very well. I’m about to put some zapco ap’s in an upcoming build so I’ll see if they’re as transparent as the Mac


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

cman said:


> Ok I got a question for you which is a better midbass woofer for a 3 way (not 2 way)
> 
> Scanspeak Gold
> Eton Onyx
> ...


Isn't this an amplifier thread?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^That McIntosh is the be all end all amp they make. Scott Buwalda has several of them in his Black Betty
> 
> View attachment 298340
> 
> ...


If I am seeing this correctly he has four MCC602TM's mounted in there? Hmm... What drivers is he using, Focal ?


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> Isn't this an amplifier thread?


Careful - the OP is sensitive and doesn't like when you suggest that OT posters should start their own threads! 

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

geolemon said:


> Careful - the OP is sensitive and doesn't like when you suggest that OT posters should start their own threads!
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


like i said, u guys screw up a wet dream


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

This is probably my first post in 10 years or, but I'm still lurking.

In any event, this topic seemed relevant to my own situation. I've been in the process of gathering the various unicorns that I couldn't afford years back, and am about to conduct a serious, but ultimately subjective listening comparison.

I have a few more pieces inbound (Modified Genisis DMAs, Audison HR100, Sinfoni HD60s, Genesis 8 channel, etc.) but I'm looking forward to the results myself, and am happy to share any impressions.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

My god I forget how ELEGANT those Sinfoni amps are !!!


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Se7en said:


> This is probably my first post in 10 years or, but I'm still lurking.
> 
> In any event, this topic seemed relevant to my own situation. I've been in the process of gathering the various unicorns that I couldn't afford years back, and am about to conduct a serious, but ultimately subjective listening comparison.
> 
> ...



Wooooooo hooooo! 

I like to see high build quality and high quality components as a starting point.. but at the end of the day subjective listening and the pleasure that comes from great sound is the most important thing for me. I like to use distortion testing and component/build quality as a starting point/basic requirement before i buy the amp and do the listening.. which it seems that is exactly what you have done here. Pick amplifiers with great components and then take a listen and see what is really coming out of them.

This is awesome, I await your feedback on the Micro Precision/Thomas Hoffman amplifier, I love the choice of components inside it and am curious to hear feedback on it against these other high end pieces you have here.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

cman said:


> Wooooooo hooooo!
> 
> I like to see high build quality and high quality components as a starting point.. but at the end of the day subjective listening and the pleasure that comes from great sound is the most important thing for me. I like to use distortion testing and component/build quality as a starting point/basic requirement before i buy the amp and do the listening.. which it seems that is exactly what you have done here. Pick amplifiers with great components and then take a listen and see what is really coming out of them.
> 
> This is awesome, I await your feedback on the Micro Precision/Thomas Hoffman amplifier, I love the choice of components inside it and am curious to hear feedback on it against these other high end pieces you have here.


Cheers. It won't just be amps either. If anyone in the Bay Area wants to help me, or just enjoy the process, just let me know.

I'm not necessarily picking components for a system, although some may actually end up in one. I am looking at these pieces as part of a resident collection.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

wasn't this post about amps ti begin with?what happened?


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Like one of these.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> wasn't this post about amps ti begin with?what happened?


Apologies for posting speaker pics. I did so, in response to someone else's comment. My original post was about amps.

I can delete the speaker pics if it makes you feel better.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

These ARC CXLR 20th Anniversary are my favorite choice as of now. They sound amazing. I think they are almost the same as the original CXLR with a G/H power supply and beefed up transistors… basically a bit more efficient and more overall power. They share the same chassis and there’s basically just a numbered plaque that goes on top with 3m adhesive that has the unit number since there were only 200 made. I feel they may release these in the future since they obviously still have the tooling for them to extrude the same heatsinks as the original CXLRS in the I beam type shape…


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

I'm in the bay area. Can help and would love to listen to things. Perhaps even share what stupid stuff I did to my car once it's ready. 1-2 months away


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Where about? I'm in Walnut Creek, and apparently the only person in the area who cares about sound..


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

San Jose, yup we are rare breeds. Ill PM you sometime later.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

Se7en said:


> Where about? I'm in Walnut Creek, and apparently the only person in the area who cares about sound..


I'm not too far away in Sacramento. Can donate (loan) a couple gems I have tucked away if you're interested. Shoot me a PM, if not, hope it turns out as interesting as it sounds.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

You're only an hour away.. I'm only doing this for my own etification, but this hobby is meant to be shared and enjoyed.

Come out and help me wire some stuff up!


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

if you ever want to sell the genesis tube amps let me know


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Porsche said:


> if you ever want to sell the genesis tube amps let me know


Will do. If anything, I'll add more before selling these.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

cman said:


> These ARC CXLR 20th Anniversary are my favorite choice as of now. They sound amazing. I think they are almost the same as the original CXLR with a G/H power supply and beefed up transistors… basically a bit more efficient and more overall power. They share the same chassis and there’s basically just a numbered plaque that goes on top with 3m adhesive that has the unit number since there were only 200 made. I feel they may release these in the future since they obviously still have the tooling for them to extrude the same heatsinks as the original CXLRS in the I beam type shape…
> 
> View attachment 303575
> 
> View attachment 303576


I had no idea you could take the plexiglass off the face of the amp. To tell you the truth I think it looks a lot better without it.

How were you able to take the plexiglass off without damaging the powered coat paint & graphics underneath?


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I had no idea you could take the plexiglass off the face of the amp. To tell you the truth I think it looks a lot better without it.
> 
> How were you able to take the plexiglass off without damaging the powered coat paint & graphics underneath?


Thats how it comes, I never put it on.. LOL. I would definately not take it off. Its like 3m adhesive, it looks like strong stuff.. You may be able to remove it but there would be adhesive residue and you might have to damage the silkscreen logo underneath to get the residue off.. then again it might work just fine.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I had no idea you could take the plexiglass off the face of the amp. To tell you the truth I think it looks a lot better without it.
> 
> How were you able to take the plexiglass off without damaging the powered coat paint & graphics underneath?


here maybe you can look up how strong of 3m it is…


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Well .. I have a total of 4 Arc Audio Anniversary Edition amps. The first 3 came with the plexi already adhered to the amp.

I just opened the 4050 I just got recently and it doesn't have it on . I like it a lot better without the plexi to tell you the truth.

Why Arc doesn't make more of these over the Class D amps they have now on the market baffles me. These are the read deal .. reminiscent of the older CXL-R model.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

jimmyjames16 said:


> Well .. I have a total of 4 Arc Audio Anniversary. The first 3 came with the plexi already adhered to the amp.
> 
> I just opened the 4050 I just got recently and it doesn't have it on . I like it alot better without the plexi.
> 
> ...


Yeah it is beyond me why they do not run with these... they are absolute legends and not as expensive as the signature series... i love them, one of my all time favorite amplifiers ive ever used. I couldnt be happier. Zeff is awesome.

I also think they look better without the plexi.. notice it doesnt say anniversary anywhere on it... i think they made these as a test run or something and then decided to mark them as anniversary later on.. either way they are sweet and i dont think i will ever sell mine.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

cman said:


> either way they are sweet and i dont think i will ever sell mine.


Same here.. that is why I have 4 of them.. ha!


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