# Crossfire angle



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Hey guys, 
I was wondering if y'all could help me further understand exactly what the crossfire pattern on the ES horn types. 

To sorta explain what I'm trying to do so you understand what I'm trying to learn.

I just picked up the perfect SQ car. I've been looking at the for a long time. It's a 2012 Honda Fit. Ive been reluctant to get one because it's a dam tin can on wheels, but for what I want in a system gosh dang it's laid out so very very nice.

3.5'wide/no center console/ DEEP dash, windshield that has flat glass, big little side windows on Apillars for 8s that have a PLD of 6 1/2" from side to side or a PLD of 4" from corners of glass and a flat dash board. 

The new fits don't have those big pockets, the middle gen ones do, the one I found has only 6000mi on it so what the heck....I got it for a good deal and its fresh and not beat to ****. 

So , my last car I had put horns all over the front of car, I like the best as far forward as possible and not in my face high but definitely more above dash high than below dash high. So ....

I've decided to completely remove the dash and cut the top of the dash and re-work a new dash top and have it angle down slightly , and mount the horns in the top of the firewall righ under the windshield. I will do whatever accoustical treatments nessasary.... Etc .

So the minis have a stronger crossfire than the full side, I MIGHT if I'm lucky but should be able to fit the full size in there. The horns would be in the rain tray where the wiper motor is, but it's pretty well sealed off , I'll just have to seal the compression drivers with something. No big deal. 

So the horns will be kinda far away, the dash on this car is low so the mounting IMO will be a perfect mix off axis traditional HLCD mounting and on axis mounting. You won't be able to see directly down the throat is what I'm saying.

Being the will be mounted 5' away from me I think the full size would be best if will fit where I want to go, (minis I can get for sure) however , is there a way to modify either horn type to fit this type of install so that the cross fire action works the right way

It seems like to me the drivers side seat/right ear picks up A LOT of the left side horn info along with the strong amount of energy shooting out the right side horn to make a center image. Like my right ear gets a lot of the left horn energy , so it's perfectly in time with it self and because it's the center of the car at my right ear location the right horn is perfectly in time with the left horn and the left horn at that spot in car next to my right ear. And because a lot of the left side energy is heard in both ears and mono signals would mean a perfect alignment for both sides, the passanger is just a mirror of that effect. 

Seems like that's how it sorta works in my own way of decriptive weirdness , if not let me know because it will help me understand and know better how to do the fab on this build. 

If I have horns mounted 5' away the side of the a pillar will get the brunt of the crossfire energy. So... 

Could I tow the horns out a tad to get the crossfire energy to be more inline with how it would be if it were traditionally mounted under dash? Or do I have to invent or modify a whole new horn? or can I make the Es bodies work correctly for imaging purposes? Or will it just work like normal from that distance away ? 

Thanks for your time, 
Cheers


----------



## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

No idea but **** yea. Sounds awesome

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

The more on axis the horns are the better the PLD (path length difference) needs to be, reason being as you go off axis vertically the pattern control of the horn is stronger.

Strongest output axis is out the centerline of the two axis flare portion of the horn.

You can tow the horns to make small adjustments to the dispersion pattern for a particular installation.

The full size horns can be cut down on the long portion that extends towards the center of the car, you can cut them down about 2" off the mouth of the horn.

Sounds like a very fun project. Ask away with questions, I would like to elp you and others understand how to make them work to their fullest potential.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Eric Stevens said:


> The more on axis the horns are the better the PLD (path length difference) needs to be, reason being as you go off axis vertically the pattern control of the horn is stronger.
> 
> Strongest output axis is out the centerline of the two axis flare portion of the horn.
> 
> ...



I've been thinking about your response for a few days now I think I'm understanding exactly what you're saying now . Thank you that really is the key to what I've been trying to put together .

So it kind a looks like I can do it a couple ways I can either extend my dash line all the way to the apex of the windshield right below the horn or I can cut it off early so that the horn plays sort of halfway into the dash area and halfway into the sub dash, and in where the heater box is and such. I'll still get plenty of sounds to come up from the top half of the horn . And then I would just build like a mesh screen and put some acoustical matting on it so the sound is transparent and it will look good 

My gut feeling tells me let the horn play into the sub dash, otherwise the energy will be caught by the dash and could have some unwanted effects . Yeah?


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

PLD is the key to the best result so mounted lower with a shorter PLD is superior to higher mounting with a longer PLD typically, beyond that, mock it up and test it. I find that I like the crossfire pattern to just in front of the opposite listeners head but if the PLD is very small such as less than 8" I think you should have the crossfire point to the opposite listeners head rather than in front of it.

I dont really understand your descriptions of how you plan to do it.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Eric Stevens said:


> PLD is the key to the best result so mounted lower with a shorter PLD is superior to higher mounting with a longer PLD typically, beyond that, mock it up and test it. I find that I like the crossfire pattern to just in front of the opposite listeners head but if the PLD is very small such as less than 8" I think you should have the crossfire point to the opposite listeners head rather than in front of it.
> 
> I dont really understand your descriptions of how you plan to do it.


Okay, Well I'll try describe better with a pic , 


[img=http://s32.postimg.org/ctiva7rmp/image.jpg]

[img=http://s32.postimg.org/p3tgbbk4h/image.jpg]


So, you can see the frame , and the only pic I have of the dash, I can take more if needed , it's a GE-08 body. So the frame where the wiper motors go that leads in car is like a little shelf under the dash board. I want to put them there, have them fire streight forward . , I plan on cutting the top of the dash board basicly in half. And making a frame that roughly the same size but have a accousticly transparent material that is now half the top of the dash( and work in a sweet frame with Vynil and duraglass,) I'll take out the defrost duct completely and use a single vent mounted in center of dash for defrost ( have it come streight off the top of heater box) so I'll have all that space for a horn. The minis I can get flush with upper firewall. The full size I might be able to get a part of the motor back in the rain tray. The wiper motor arms are right there so I can't go into it that much. But , the full size would still fit in that spot on the shelf. 

When you sit in the car the dash looks kinda low (the top of the dash) like its perspective relitive to your head. So they would still be sorta under you eyes quite a bit, wouldn't be able to see all way down into horn because head would be too high. 


There's big side windows right there that I can fab a panel for for an 8" and have it blow off into subdash so it wouldn't ring like a pod. 

Car is pretty dang narrow. The right side will loose very little energy , so that why I'm concerned, seems the minis have a spot where the beam raw energy like no other. So , I'm trying figure out how's it going to be best from how they will be mounted a bit further out than traditional, so if it's shooting energy into the Apillars that might be bad. 

You answered that in previous post, which makes me think what's going to be best, I've played with them in the Hyundai but PLD was pretty bad and they were in very close proximity, I liked the height but hated how close they were. I could dial them in good with gobs of dsp, but I knew it could be better if I could get some distance that's why bought the Honda .

I can get very very low PLD with upper dash arrangement, which really leads me to believe that this might work pretty good but I can also do underdash horns perfectly as well . I'm not sure exactly which direction I want to go if it's not going to work the way I wanted to then I will just stick with underdash but I really really like 3K and up up high so much I'll do the extra work. 

Hope that helps. I just got all the wiring , I'm getting ready to go for it and start fab , just want to toss a few ideas . Thank you for help BTW


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

As you reduce the PLD more on axis is OK. So up high should be OK. You would want the mouth of the horn as near the meeting of the windshield and dash as possible or you will need to make the top of the dash in front of the horn an acoustic absorbtion surface to stop compound reflections.

Mock it up and test it before cutting is my suggestion, call me to discuss results if needed to help you get it done to the highest possible level.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Eric Stevens said:


> As you reduce the PLD more on axis is OK. So up high should be OK. You would want the mouth of the horn as near the meeting of the windshield and dash as possible or you will need to make the top of the dash in front of the horn an acoustic absorbtion surface to stop compound reflections.
> 
> Mock it up and test it before cutting is my suggestion, call me to discuss results if needed to help you get it done to the highest possible level.


Okay, thank you .


----------

