# The price of a product justifies whether is it the best or not



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

All too many times throughout the past, I've seen these individuals with money to burn, as well as those who didn't have money to burn, purchase items for their car audio solely based on price. Even recently, I've seen some talking about used gear on eBay still commanding a high price and equating the high price to mean that the piece of gear was "one of the best".

Unfortunately, high price does not always equate to better technology OR a better build quality. I remember seeing a gut shot of an older Critical Mass amplifier that went for a huge sum having the same board as an American Bass 1500 watt amplifier.

So with that typed, I am here to say that it is a myth to assume something is the absolute best based solely on its MSRP or price on the used market!


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

^ true to some extent-though it does depend on the products!

Look at the guts of these two amps, same board (allbeit different colour) and look at the price difference. If anyone "techy" can tell me any other differences besides the board colour please chime in:

:: Ground Zero :: Amplifier / GZPA 1.6500spl about Euro2500/£2135/$3300

Power Drive 5000 « InPhase Audio Euro1650/£1400/$2160

^I only noticed this after seeing a G-Z demo car and realising all the terminals were in the same place as the Inphase amp I stock so googled the G-Z and found pics of the boards and found them the "same"...

Dynaudio's home floor standers the Evidence Masters are £76,000.00-but take longer to build then a Bentley Continental GT-so would seem pretty good value IMO!

While this site has opened my eyes to what can be done with cheaper drivers if you're willing to do the work I still feel some of the higher priced brands are worth the money they ask-you can't build a reputation on poor quality products and while something may look good on paper it doesn't always mean it's going to do what you expect-on paper the Corvette is a great car, in practice I'd rather spend more and get "less" in a Porsche.


"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."

“Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."

3 quotes above are from John Ruskin, wouldn't say I live my life by them (or anyone else's) but feel they are still valid 100+ years after his death. I think that careful reasearch can save a few $, but if you spend 10hrs trying to save a few $ you'd have been better off working that time and buying what you wanted/needed originally!


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## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

Guilty as charged. But luckily most of the expensive stuff I bought has turned out to also be good if not great performers. Plus I shop around and pick up used equipment for much less than new/retail. 

Some instances do come to mind. I bought some streetwires 1/0 cable which was on sale for a very nice price. But next to the Kicker Hyperflex it felt like trying to bend a coat hanger in comparison. The Kicker was maybe twice as expensive. Hard to compare exactly since the Kicker from an amp kit. But there was a reason the Kicker was more expensive. By the way those Kicker dual amp kits that used to be all over ebay for $100 shipped were one of the great bargains I ever came across. 

On the other side of the coin, the Scanspeak 12M is a great speaker but I am not sure it is any better, and maybe not as good in some respects as the Peerless Exclusive 4. The Scan is like 5 times the price of the Peerless. It is still a great performer but its value is low compared to the Peerless. 

I have never rpurchased something really expensive that sounded like A$$, so I guess I am lucky in that respect. 

I hear you about the ebay stuff. Somebody periodically auctions old JBL GTi speakers. I would love to get my hands on some. But I will not pay as much or more for a pair of "Rare Vintage" midbasses than I can get a BNIB set of 660GTi set with the crossovers, tweeters, and waveguides included.


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## Ianarian (Dec 20, 2010)

Hmmm, whatever is new and trendy in car audio, it usually comes with a high price tag. The next year when they upgrade the model, thats a good time to pick up one of those products, brand new and still probably as good as the upgraded version. 

I recently got my hands on a sonus faber center speaker for my home system. I had to dissect such a special device only to find out that there is nothing so super special that justifies the cost. Its just a friggin speaker. Of course, it has 3 times the output as my cerwin vega center speaker, not to mention everything you'd want better sound to do, but seriously, it has to sit on its own stand on the floor. Made of solid oak its about 80lbs or more. My cerwin sits on top of my tv. Each speaker holds 2 6" drivers and a tweet but the Sonus Faber has a additional 4" mid. The 6" on the sonus are wired in series through a coil, thats it, the rest of the 3"x7" crossover is dedicated to the mid and tweet to produce a final 4ohm load at the gold plated terminal. The sonus retails for over $5000, the cerwin I got for free from a friend.


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## Boxology (Dec 29, 2010)

Price of a product:

A good business transaction is one where the buyer and seller would trade shoes with no regrets. just my 2 cents...


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

It is common, because even a cheap amp can work just fine (cheap, not junk). You might pay for a nicer case, more warranty, etc. They can use the same boards and different components on it that will change the quality some....its debatable as some components are better but even run of the mill transistors are very good. Take a company like power acoustic and they sell minimum half a dozen brands with the same or very similar boards. Its a design that works, so why change it? I can run 80s amps that sound very good, just how much better is an amp today? Some are better but mostly they are cheaper...just like toasters. Fact is the ear can only hear so much and that was exceeded decades ago. The real electronic engineering today is in building a cell phone or something like that. Overall I'd say high price is more insurance of better performance, but there is not a direct correlation necessarily. I really would worry less about amps far as vehicle SQ than anything else in my system, you get a mid level amp and performance will be sufficient for about any use.

With speakers there is a greater span of quality, cheap stuff is going to be hit or miss while expensive should assure you of some fairly good level of performance...though not by any means assure you your install is going to be great. I have no doubt a great SQ system could be made using quite cheap products, but it would take a lot of testing to find the right combination while you could buy more pricey stuff and EQ it in pretty close. I'm not sure I'd ever try to use a cheap HU or processing though, while some are pretty good if you do start with a poor signal into your system you are doomed to ever reach high SQ. Still I only paid far less than 250 for my 880PRS, hard to complain about that.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Sometimes its easiest to look at what the pros use. Take a look at the strand count in the typical starter/ground cables in a car and I bet that is the best compromise in durability.

IMO the lugs on these amps tend to suck, when I wired industrial machines for 220/440v and 15hp electric motors...the lugs they used would hold me in the air no problem. You could crank them tight as you could by hand with an expensive allen wrench that would not break....they didn't come loose. Many were a copper like material.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> Sometimes its easiest to look at what the pros use. Take a look at the strand count in the typical starter/ground cables in a car and I bet that is the best compromise in durability.
> 
> IMO the lugs on these amps tend to suck, when I wired industrial machines for 220/440v and 15hp electric motors...the lugs they used would hold me in the air no problem. You could crank them tight as you could by hand with an expensive allen wrench that would not break....they didn't come loose. Many were a copper like material.


On top of that some are easy to strip out. There's gotta be a better way to keep connections at the amp secure. It's also easy to go longer than you should without checking and freshening up your connections. I'm notorious for installing and forgetting about my amps for years at a time so can relate. I'm also not looking forward to pulling my drivers seat and cutting away the heatshrink on the exposed terminals of my custom built amp. Anyone know how long you can go without freshening up connections if the wire is good quality and they're protected from moisture? The set screws should be friction welded fairly well...at least I hope.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Like Hoover for vacuum cleaners, Locktite is a generic term for any liquid which is applied to the threads of nuts and bolts to prevent them coming undone in use. It is used exensively in the automotive and aviation industries. The Lockitite company also make a superglue.

Loctite is a brand of adhesives, which includes acrylics, anaerobics, cyanoacrolates, epoxies, hot melts, silicones, urethanes and UV/light curing adhesives.

The name Loctite was chosen in 1956 by the daughter-in-law of Vernon Krieble, inventor of an adhesive resin that hardened in the absence of air, as a replacement for less-reliable locking washers when securing bolts and screws.The Loctite brand is since 1997 part of Henkel, a German family company with interests in many chemical and industrial products.


Read more: Answers.com - What is Locktite


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Great products often cost more to design, develop and build than products that aren't so great, but building crap and charging a lot for it is simple and easy. In consumer electronics, there are MANY examples of products that are expensive simply because they include EVERY feature anyone could think to include, no matter how ridiculous or unnecessary those features may be to a majority of consumers. 

If you have VERY specific requirements that aren't common, you're part of a niche market and products designed to satisfy you and the few customers like you are likely to be more expensive because fewer can be sold and the manufacturer has to recoup his development costs and make a little profit. Those costs are the same whether he builds 1 or 1,000,000 pieces.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Why can't anyone make a solid amp with just a gain and nothing else for a fair price? The only one I know of is a Sinfoni that costs more than my whole system as a whole did...and that's adding the msrp prices, not what I paid for it. Does switching the crossover selector to FULL basically give you a signal in/signal out without the usually cheap internal crossover on the amp possibly degrading the sound? Are those of us that desire such an amp really as few and far between as I think we are? Nearly every headunit out today has high and low crossovers so the days of amps with crossovers should be about over...or am I completely off my rocker now? Nothing takes away a warm and fuzzy feeling quicker than looking at an amp with more knobs on it than screws holding the back plate on


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Oliver said:


> Like Hoover for vacuum cleaners, Locktite is a generic term for any liquid which is applied to the threads of nuts and bolts to prevent them coming undone in use. It is used exensively in the automotive and aviation industries. The Lockitite company also make a superglue.
> 
> Loctite is a brand of adhesives, which includes acrylics, anaerobics, cyanoacrolates, epoxies, hot melts, silicones, urethanes and UV/light curing adhesives.
> 
> ...


I've thought about it several times but even the breakaway loctite might cause more problems down the road than it prevents. Kinda like using Slick 50 in your engine. Not a good thing when you see chunks of that stuff coming out of your oil pan


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Slick50 and Duralube do work, but they will not bring something back from the dead and other assorted crazy uses. I had a quad4 and that was the only thing that kept the rockers from rattling, they were known for top end failure. GM even offered a special oil filter with backflow valve that I used. I also talked with a guy who won smashup derbys all the time and guess what he used for oil, all 6-7 quarts in a typical 5qt v8 lol. He said radiators only last you a few minutes.

The problem with wire lugs is its not necessarily the the screw that is working loose, the strands move and then it needs to be tightened. They move from vibration and electrical current and heat/cooling cycles. I often tighten them, loosen, and tighten again to get them best seated providing they are not the kind that tear up the wire. Most of the electrical ones the bottom of the screw is flat, while these amps many are concave that leaves an edge to cut the wire sometimes.

IMO some kind of clamp would work better, something with a little spring to it then it would not come loose. There is a reason those 4ga crimpers look like bolt cutters; they crush the f out of the connector and it holds. You need that much pressure for a large cable, that is why most of the amp terminals are so wimpy with a tiny 1/4" threads or the like. The industrial lugs I used were more like 3/8 thread sizes. Typically the screw was wider than the wire. In reality I liked the flat screw connectors on older or smaller amps better; you could crimp the wire and the connector was bolted essentially...and they don't come loose. If you strip a lug on these amps its nearly junk as replacements are impossible to get from China, another downside to them.

McMaster Carr # 6923K63 are like what I used, wow they don't give them away. They were much cheaper from our electrical distributor here.

Another trick is to silicone the threads. They don't rattle out usually yet are easy to remove, sometimes it works for multiple uses even. It can also lube the threads when its wet so you can get them pretty tight. Anyway, better than nothing when you don't want to use loctite but no not a solution to the problem.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Why can't anyone make a solid amp with just a gain and nothing else for a fair price? The only one I know of is a Sinfoni that costs more than my whole system as a whole did...and that's adding the msrp prices, not what I paid for it. Does switching the crossover selector to FULL basically give you a signal in/signal out without the usually cheap internal crossover on the amp possibly degrading the sound? Are those of us that desire such an amp really as few and far between as I think we are? Nearly every headunit out today has high and low crossovers so the days of amps with crossovers should be about over...or am I completely off my rocker now? Nothing takes away a warm and fuzzy feeling quicker than looking at an amp with more knobs on it than screws holding the back plate on


You are not alone, but you are part of a select minority because signal degradation through extra circuitry (or lack thereof) is not normally promoted as a selling point. Sellers have not figured out how to, or don't care to, market simplicity.


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## magnumsrt806 (Apr 22, 2011)

I have bought expensive stuff as well as some cheap stuff the biggest difference 4 me has been that the expensive stuff has lasted a lot longer, just my 2 cents


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

That is very true with subs and even some mids, but if you don't blow them I never had a problem with lifespan of a cheaper tweeter. Having run a lot of cheap subs, that is very true. I wonder how long these pyles will last but they do seem a lot better build than cheap subs I ran many years ago. Also I don't abuse them daily lol, some of that is because they are a pair of 15s and lot louder than the 10s I commonly ran when I did a lot of IB setups.


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## breville11 (May 10, 2011)

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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)

ChrisB said:


> I remember seeing a gut shot of an older Critical Mass amplifier that went for a huge sum having the same board as an American Bass 1500 watt amplifier.


I smell Critical Mass, hmmmmm.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

yogegoy said:


> I smell Critical Mass, hmmmmm.


They aren't the only ones doing this... One American made (well sort of) product comes to mind.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

Jhony505 said:


> Then how do we select a good product ?


Your ears never lie. 

If you get caught up in equipment spec sheets, MSRPs, and other numbers you'll be doing yourself a disservice. Anything can look good on paper; but when it's all said and done your ears should be the judge on quality instead of the bill. 

So if you're a bit green to the whole audio thing, well, it's trial and error unless you have a friend who knows what he's doing instead of thinking he knows what he's doing. Coming to a website such as this hopefully will reduce the trial and error thing...but it will never eliminate it. The more you get the bug, the more equipment you want to try. 

If you're wondering what the difference between a good and bad car audio system is; go to a hi-end HOME audio store and get a demo. Here that $150,000 sound system in the dimly lit back room with the comfy leather chairs? You want your car system to sound as close to that as possible. 

If you buy a car sound system, install it, and it makes you go "ooohhh that's nice" and you show your friends/neighbors - you did well regardless of how much/little you spent. 

In this biz, numbers may sell products but in practice they mean very little. The only rules I stand by when it comes to good/bad product are
1. Not Chinese
2. Looks simple as opposed to having wattage stickers & neons all over it
3. It can't be purchased in a blister pack

I'm just getting back into the hobby, but I'd guess that most of the stuff out there is actually pretty good and you'll be getting a lot for your money as long as you follow my 3 rules.


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## tankbulldog (Apr 5, 2011)

I also am just getting back into the audio seen. The last system i put together was about 18-20 years or so. To say something is the best is a tough call. Back in the day (yes i can use the term back in the day as i am an old timer) some buddies of mine thought i was crazy 18 years ago for buying a pair of Boston Acoustics 10.4lf subs for,if i remember right $200.00 or so apiece. Well let me tell you they are still going strong and i am using them in my build i am working on now along with the same amp. That's an old school Hifonics Zuess VII. And let me tell you, after all the pounding they have been through they still sound great. So i do say in some cases you do get what you pay for.Don't get me wrong i am definitely the best bang for your buck type of guy. I try to do as much research as possible before purchasing. You can also buy the so called best equipment and if is not installed properly it can sound like garbage. Also remember these guys doing reviews in the mags. have trained their listen habits for years. They can hear things that the average person may never notice at all. When they do a review and say the $1500.00 set is the best, better than the $500.00 set. Can you justify the price difference if they last just as long and both do a very good job. So to say the best (?) you make the call.


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## Minus (-) (Jun 26, 2011)

Yea The Price is The price for assorted reasons.....but my thing is you have to buy it(or try it) to have an opinion on it...so something u dont always get what u paid for


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Chinese are getting good with amps and many other things, expect China cars here soon. Because every company ran over there and set up shop so they would not go out of business (and thus delivered their production technology to them). Most amps are made in China now, even really good ones. I read about I think Alpine built plants there to make their SMD amps and China didn't like it because it did not require enough workers; they don't like automation that keeps quality up and size down. But they are getting better every day, just like Japan and Korea and Taiwan did in the past. They suspect the next cheap labor is India, because China gets an 8% raise every year for the last 20yr and price is going up.

How to find a good amp, I look at company reputation and warranty and what people say here....though you have to take that with a grain of salt. Most any amp can sound good only the cheapest ones have issues like out of balance gains and early distortion, not rated, etc. Most any mid line amp will work quite well. There are durability differences for sure that usually go with price, but sonically you are not going to find large differences only very minor.

This market is tight, very competitive. Brands that have been around and not bought up did it right IMO or they would not still be there. Ones that have been bought, well we know some are not so good and some we don't know.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Chinese cars are already in the UK market-they bought the MG name and have continued making the MG-TF and have a new model out now:

MG MOTOR - MG6 GT


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