# DE500 + Mini bodies = awesome



## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

A big thank you to TREETOP for helping me get my horns in. Thank you very much! If he didn't help me they would have sat around for at least 3-4 more months before I even tried to get them in.

I am still just getting the crossovers and time alignment just right before I start really getting into the EQ. I like to really listen to make sure I get as much perfect before I eq. BTW compression horns do need a bit of break in time. The night the horns went in the sound was a bit low and off. The next day the sound improved and stage raised up a bit. My horns are not as high as my old setup but it is very close. This may also change as I chase down some resonances and get to EQing.

So what is the first thing you notice once you switch to horns? Clarity and transparency. The next thing you notice, once you get your time alignment just right, is just how focused instruments are.

The myth that horns are harsh, is just that a myth. That is if you are using good quality modern drivers. Now, to be fair, my horns are very in your face and need some taming to sound smooth. Treetop gave me some EQ starting points but as usually they got lost while I was tweeking. If anyone knows where the minihorns need to be cut (independent of drivers) I would love to know about it. On my iphone RTA I have to say they look pretty damn flat but that of course takes into account resonances and reflections in the car. Has anyone used gated measurements to tune? 

As I go I will try to update this a bit to let people who are on the fence know if horns are for them. So far I am very happy, now I just need to tune some more.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

1.2k-2.5k cut by 4-6db
4k cut 3db
6.3-8k cut a few db depending on amount of sibilance


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for your post! I've been on the fence for a couple years atleast, but still have never heard a set of horns, so it's tough to just take the plunge.

I understand it's the very early stages of tuning for you, but you mentioned the stage is lower with the horns compared to your last setup. What was your last setup? Where was your stage then & now?

Could you post some more info please. . . . crosover point, other drivers used, impression of the higher frequency rolloff? Thanks.


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Last setup is a pair of GTR components in the stock location with everything else the same. Stage was exactly eye height. Now the stage is about 2-3" lower but still above the dash. 

I am currently crossed over at 900hz but I will be switching that back to 1000hz. I work in car audio so I have heard many different types of speakers and these are the cleanest drivers I have ever heard. 

I have not perceived any higher frequency rolloff. My hearing starts to roll off at 18k, like most peoples, so it doesn't sound like I am missing anything.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

flip polarity of the driver side horn
make sure you have no gaps between horn and under dash area and you have a smooth transition between the 2.
dash mat to help tame reflections from windshield


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

tried flip, not much difference. When I say lower then my previous system, I do not mean it is low or that there is a problem. It's just lower.

I do need to smooth the transition to the dash on drivers side and that is on the to do list next. 

Mike does a dash mat make a small or large difference when it comes to horns? I would think their controlled dispersion would lessen their effectiveness.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

No idea who Mike is

but dash mat makes a big difference especially with horns. put a towel across the dash and check for yourself.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Corrected for Mic 



Mic10is said:


> 2.5k & 3.1k cut by 4-6db
> 2K and 4k cut 2-3db
> 6.3-8k cut a few db depending on amount of sibilance


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

LOL sorry I ment MIC not Mike.

Eric do you mean that I should not use those as a baseline? Do you have measurements I should try?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

nubz69 said:


> LOL sorry I ment MIC not Mike.
> 
> Eric do you mean that I should not use those as a baseline? Do you have measurements I should try?


No I adjusted MIC's eq suggestion a little.

Eric


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> No I adjusted MIC's eq suggestion a little.
> 
> Eric


Ive always had cuts at 2khz, and actually so did Eric bc he tuned my car for nearly a decade:laugh:

but youll find adjusting 2khz will have an effect on stage height some. the whole 1.6-2.5k area can help with perceived height.


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

One thing I didn't mention. Rather then run my midbasses straight to the amp, I am running them with the crossover and tweeter connected. The reason being that I need to demo them for work sometimes. I am guessing the crossover point on the midbasses is roughly 2.5k. Personally I think that this may be having a small effect on my midbasses that are crossed over at [email protected]/oct. Should I be concerned about this? 

Has anyone tried bessel crossovers in the car? I have them as an option on my bit one but I don't know if I really need their curve and phase response. Any input on this?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

So how large of a center console are we talking to where the cross-firing pattern of the minis will start to be affected?

I have an '03 Civic sedan...


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

nubz69 said:


> One thing I didn't mention. Rather then run my midbasses straight to the amp, I am running them with the crossover and tweeter connected. The reason being that I need to demo them for work sometimes. I am guessing the crossover point on the midbasses is roughly 2.5k. Personally I think that this may be having a small effect on my midbasses that are crossed over at [email protected]/oct. Should I be concerned about this?
> 
> Has anyone tried bessel crossovers in the car? I have them as an option on my bit one but I don't know if I really need their curve and phase response. Any input on this?


I would check on that to be sure. alot of comp sets "woofer" output on the crossovers is just parallel with the input (no crossover at all) 

at any rate, if you have them actively crossed over at 1000hz from amp/x-over/processor then your passives are doing nothing (except for a phase shift base on what slope they are), you could just disconnect them for the woofers.


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

It's a 1st order crossover on the woofer. I was really just wondering if I should be worried about phase shifts. I think I am just going to leave them.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

first order will give you a nominal 90° shift. I would take it out. much more predictable.


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

but then I have to reconfigure my system to be able to switch between the dome tweeters in my door and my horns. I need the components in there to demo for work.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I dont know how you have it setup. do you run either the tweets OR the horns?

why not use the H100 with two seperate setups? one 3-way setup with sub-midbass-tweets and the other sub-misbass-horns? to switch between them just use a good quality relay with a switch in the dash to control it.

This way you keep everything completely active for crossovers, even TA setup can be different for each. you are gonna have totally different crossover and EQ settings between the two, so it will sound better too.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

The phase shift of the passive network can either help or hurt. The phase shift isnt of a passive network is not a constant, and the further from the xover frequency there is less phase shift.

If you need both leave it in and tune it as best as possible.

Eric


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> Corrected for Mic
> 
> 2.5k & 3.1k cut by 4-6db
> 2K and 4k cut 2-3db
> 6.3-8k cut a few db depending on amount of sibilance


Interesting... I have almost the same cuts but I usually have much more @ 4kHz - like 8dBs or so... 

What do you think the problem is? Am I just too sensitive @ 4kHz or I have a reflexion problem? 

Kelvin 

PS: sorry for the thread jacking... Enjoy!


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Interesting... I have almost the same cuts but I usually have much more @ 4kHz - like 8dBs or so...
> 
> What do you think the problem is? Am I just too sensitive @ 4kHz or I have a reflexion problem?
> 
> ...


Different drivers in your car the CD1E V.3 is part of it, other part is the car. I rarely end up cutting that much at 4khz its usually 3.1 that I end up at -9 and sometimes more.

That upper frequency range 2.5 - 3.1 Khz (and even 4 khz too) is a range we are very sensitive too. An audiologist told me that its a left over from our ancestors and is part of our survival instinct. That happens to coincide with the most prominent frequency of a babies cry. Women are even more sensitive to it than men and tend to have more acute hearing ability from my experience. 

Eric


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> Different drivers in your car the CD1E V.3 is part of it, other part is the car. I rarely end up cutting that much at 4khz its usually 3.1 that I end up at -9 and sometimes more.
> Thanks for the help, I'll try your tune and see how it goes
> 
> That upper frequency range 2.5 - 3.1 Khz (and even 4 khz too) is a range we are very sensitive too. An audiologist told me that its a left over from our ancestors and is part of our survival instinct. That happens to coincide with the most prominent frequency of a babies cry. *Women are even more sensitive to it than men and tend to have more acute hearing ability from my experience.*
> ...


^ Really believe the above is exact - this holds true for my girlfriend. I find a good tune and she finds it to be a bit bright :blush:


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

^^^ explains why my wife says that my un-eqd horns sound soo harsh she cant listen to em. they are a little harsh at 2.5-4Khz, but I can live with it until I get an EQ


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

HALLELUJAH!!!!! I managed to get "my" perfect soundstage... Focused, layered, evenly spread and @ eye level (not below, not above)... Ok it's a 1 seat wonder but my girlfriend doesn't care 

Worked with my L/R EQ (and levels) on the horns first, then set the Xover points, followed by T/A (always had problem with that one) - and BAM instant soundstage  

Sub is Xed @ 50Hz 12dB/oct (around 450rms)
Mid is Xed @ 100Hz 18dB/oct & 2kHz 24dB/oct (close to 200rms) 
Horn is Xed @ 2kHz 24dB/oct (around 20rms)

I'm using the big body horns and I don't know I get a better transition and a better height with my horns Xed @ 2kHz. 
Loudest point in my subwoofer level is 40Hz - which is 6dB-7dB louder than the midrange freqs... so no gap in the low to midbass transition  
Need to work a bit more on tonality now. Need to work on my dash transition too and my next big project "front IB subwoofer" 

Kelvin 

PS: will post RTA results when I got time. Other than the 400Hz-500Hz dip due to the door location, I think it looks great too...


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