# Old school 90's/2000s amps versus todays amp for quality



## soundcontrol

Getting back into car audio a little bit and was curious about something. Currently I am using in my setup a Rockford 360.3 processor and a Prime R400-4D amp active setup on my front stage 2-way components. Sounds really good, I can not complain. Prior to that I was running a Punch P500-2 on my front stage using passive crossovers and the 360.3 processor.



I started looking around at other amp options now that I am confident in the active setup. I started looking at brands like McIntosh, Zapco, Arc Audio, Nakamichi, also the RF Power series, etc that are well known for SQ products. Both newer and older. Then I started looking at the older RF A series like the 600a4 and the 800a4 that were made in the USA.

*THE MAIN QUESTION*

Anyone that work on amps or maybe have more knowledge about amps then most able to chime in on amp quality today vs say the late 90's early 2000's when it comes to sound quality and build components?

My biggest hang up maybe nostalgia vs facts. Thinking that the RF 600a4 is just a better build then say going with the newer T600-4. When my guts is saying newer technology, cost in materials being lower, the newer products should be better. 

RF is the main brand I am considering on amps but same comparison with any manufacture Alpine, Kenwood, MTX, Pioneer, Arc Audio, PPI, PG, Zapco etc that maybe is your brand of choice.

I want to go with the best SQ I can but not buy into marketing or nostalgia


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## felix509

:snacks:


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## Frijoles24

Tradeoff? new tech, cheaper components. great components, old tech. although im sure the higher end companies use new tech and good components, but you def pay the price

Sound quality, its all subjective. Ive played with multiple amps, cheap, expensive, old, new and they all had their personalities. and I used pq20 a while back, and Im now back to the pq20(.2) again. 

these amps are ~15-20 and they still work well without problems. Its just having to find that one that's not gona give you problems due to its long history and multiple owners.


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## chefhow

Just remember, its a FACT that older amps fail, and when they do it will cost you more than then cost of a new amp. The new amps from reputable brands that care about build quality will last you much longer than that older amp you are looking at. 
IF you are looking at a rebuilt older amp find out who rebuilt it, talk to them to see what was done and if its worth paying that price.


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## trenion

I heard good testimonials about Nakamichi, maybe you can try it.


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## GEM592

OP: If you have to ask, just get your new cheapo and leave us in peace.


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## geshat00

chefhow said:


> Just remember, its a FACT that older amps fail, and when they do it will cost you more than then cost of a new amp. The new amps from reputable brands that care about build quality will last you much longer than that older amp you are looking at.
> IF you are looking at a rebuilt older amp find out who rebuilt it, talk to them to see what was done and if its worth paying that price.


We really can't say newer will last longer than older because there are great examples of both!

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz

Amps fail from abuse mostly. With power as cheap as it is now more amps are getting abused. Take care of your stuff and it will last a very long time. That's why I prefer to always buy new, no telling what the previous owner did to something


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## solacedagony

Can you define "quality"?


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## leonpiper69

DC/Hertz said:


> Amps fail from abuse mostly. With power as cheap as it is now more amps are getting abused. Take care of your stuff and it will last a very long time. That's why I prefer to always buy new, no telling what the previous owner did to something


True but I have been reading about how old caps breakdown even if they aren't leaking. Now I am thinking I should recap all my Orion amps I am about to use just because they are older.

So couldn't older stuff just fail from age due to components breaking down over time regardless of abuse?


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## PPI_GUY

Other than the use of Surface Mount Technology, modern class a/b amps are essentially the same as they were 20 years ago. Not a lot of progress has been made in that topology. 
On the other hand, class D amps have come a long way since they were first introduced. There really isn't anything "old school" to compare them to. New, higher quality class D amps have faster switching speeds resulting in a lower noise floor and better sound quality. Of course, they are also many times more efficient and run cooler. 
Having said all of that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with running old school amps in either a daily or competition system. As long as you take care (maintenance) of them, don't abuse them and follow the manufacturers original guidelines, you will be fine.


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## Lexingtonian

PPI_GUY said:


> Other than the use of Surface Mount Technology, modern class a/b amps are essentially the same as they were 20 years ago. Not a lot of progress has been made in that topology.
> On the other hand, class D amps have come a long way since they were first introduced. There really isn't anything "old school" to compare them to. New, higher quality class D amps have faster switching speeds resulting in a lower noise floor and better sound quality. Of course, they are also many times more efficient and run cooler.
> Having said all of that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with running old school amps in either a daily or competition system. As long as you take care (maintenance) of them, don't abuse them and follow the manufacturers original guidelines, you will be fine.


All 100% correct PPI Guy!

OP - Truth is, you're probably not going to hear the difference between a common Class D design today and the nostalgic class A/B. I was an installer in the late 90's (was my dream job LOL - for about a half second). I personally have "Old School" (a moniker I think is completely ignorant) Eclipse, Fulton, Fultron Competiton and Crossfire amps from the late 90's that are fantastic amps in their own right and chose to go Class D for my new build. Small, efficient, quiet, powerful, inexpensive is hard argue with. With Class D I can fit 2 4 channel amps totaling 1000 watts RMS under my truck seat. 

Of course, what you prefer is entirely up to you.

Cheers!


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## PPI_GUY

Lexingtonian said:


> All 100% correct PPI Guy!
> 
> OP - Truth is, you're probably not going to hear the difference between a common Class D design today and the nostalgic class A/B. I was an installer in the late 90's (was my dream job LOL - for about a half second). I personally have "Old School" (a moniker I think is completely ignorant) Eclipse, Fulton, Fultron Competiton and Crossfire amps from the late 90's that are fantastic amps in their own right and chose to go Class D for my new build. Small, efficient, quiet, powerful, inexpensive is hard argue with. With Class D I can fit 2 4 channel amps totaling 1000 watts RMS under my truck seat.
> 
> Of course, what you prefer is entirely up to you.
> 
> Cheers!


Welcome aboard another Kentuckian! 
Can I ask what shop you worked for in the late 90's? 
I was pretty much out of the hobby by then but, we may know some of the same people. You getting back into car audio or just checking out the scene?


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## Sine Swept

The last new amp I used (on mids/ hi's) was a JBL GTO 75.4. It had plenty of power, the only issues I had with is were oxidized dip switches that would give me hell from time to time, scary when 280 RMS suddenly drops out on you while playing the system. 

I am and have been using the PPI's in my signature for 5 years or so and still loving it.


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## Lexingtonian

PPI_GUY said:


> Welcome aboard another Kentuckian!
> Can I ask what shop you worked for in the late 90's?
> I was pretty much out of the hobby by then but, we may know some of the same people. You getting back into car audio or just checking out the scene?


Not at all.. it was Audio Center in Richmond KY. I think I worked there from 1996-1998. Seems like the right span. 

Just getting back into it for my own vehicle mostly. I've also been helping the ford owners figure out the stupid-complex ford sync system. That's been fun too. I have a build log started for my Explorer if ya wanna take a look. I'm early in the process. Just put a 5.25" Eclipse center channel in to today (upgraded the stock 3.5") will post photos tomorrow.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...25353-2016-ford-explorer-sport-build-log.html


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## PPI_GUY

Lexingtonian said:


> Not at all.. it was Audio Center in Richmond KY. I think I worked there from 1996-1998. Seems like the right span.
> 
> Just getting back into it for my own vehicle mostly. I've also been helping the ford owners figure out the stupid-complex ford sync system. That's been fun too. I have a build log started for my Explorer if ya wanna take a look. I'm early in the process. Just put a 5.25" Eclipse center channel in to today (upgraded the stock 3.5") will post photos tomorrow.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...25353-2016-ford-explorer-sport-build-log.html


I think I remember Audio Center in Richmond. Did you guys sell G&S Designs amps at one time? 

What new class D amps did you decide to go with to replace your old school Fultron and Crossfire units?


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## Lexingtonian

PPI_GUY said:


> I think I remember Audio Center in Richmond. Did you guys sell G&S Designs amps at one time?
> 
> What new class D amps did you decide to go with to replace your old school Fultron and Crossfire units?


JL Audio JX500/d for a JL 10w3v3
2 Soundstream Tarantuala 150x4's for everything else. (They are the same design as a bunch of other Class D's right now but around 100 bucks)


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## super josh

geshat00 said:


> We really can't say newer will last longer than older because there are great examples of both!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk





DC/Hertz said:


> Amps fail from abuse mostly. With power as cheap as it is now more amps are getting abused. Take care of your stuff and it will last a very long time. That's why I prefer to always buy new, no telling what the previous owner did to something


I think the OP is talking about the reliability of old amps because they are now 20/25 years old. Let's face it the electrolytic caps will be far past their best and looking at the MTBF (Clicky if you don't know what it means) they will be approaching the far end of the bathtub curve because the electronics will have been run for so many hours. So it would be foolish to think that an old amp is a fit-and-forget type of experience (says the person with a stack of old soundstreams squirrelled away for a rainy day  )

Josh


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## PPI_GUY

Let's not forget the strong appeal of nostalgia in all of this. When I am at a show it's so easy to walk by vehicle after vehicle with the standard brand names installed. Usually all quality gear but, I will always stop at a car running old school gear. Maybe it's my age or just the novelty of running inefficient old Made in the USA class a/b gear. LOL!


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## GEM592

I've been running four or five 25 to 30 year old amps in my car now since about 2010. I had one issue, but it wasn't the amp's fault and it was easily repaired. My bass amps have been in for over five years running low impedance, frequently warming up, etc with no problems. Knock on wood but I would further say I know several with similar results. 

I don't recommend replacing caps just because they are old. It won't hurt (as long as it is done correctly) but I've never found it to be necessary.

I get the bathtub argument, but we're really discussing how big the bathtub is so to speak. I would say it looks like my old amps are easily in their useful life period.


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## leonpiper69

GEM592 said:


> I don't recommend replacing caps just because they are old. It won't hurt (as long as it is done correctly) but I've never found it to be necessary.
> 
> I get the bathtub argument, but we're really discussing how big the bathtub is so to speak. I would say it looks like my old amps are easily in their useful life period.



Not sure what a "bathtub" even is. But I recently picked up a few more Orion SX amps and one has just been recapped but the others are orig and I have no idea of their life history but since they are @ 30 yrs old... I feel like it would be time well spent so I (hopefully) won't have to pull them out for repair once I get around to installing them sometime this summer.


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## Lexingtonian

GEM592 said:


> I don't recommend replacing caps just because they are old. It won't hurt (as long as it is done correctly) but I've never found it to be necessary.


I completely agree with this. I see a lot of folks talking about replacing caps, and frankly I think because they've seen other guys talk about it so much that it has become its own truth. I see very little risk in running a legacy amp the way it is as long as it works. Especially in an SQ application.

Lex


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## DC/Hertz

If it's a pheonix gold prepare to change the caps.


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## Marky

Lexingtonian said:


> I completely agree with this. I see a lot of folks talking about replacing caps, and frankly I think because they've seen other guys talk about it so much that it has become its own truth. I see very little risk in running a legacy amp the way it is as long as it works. Especially in an SQ application.
> 
> Lex


You are wrong there, capacitors have a very important role to smooth out power flow through the amp. A bad set of caps will take out op amps along with plenty of other components depending on their proper operation. The amplifiers also loose output power and sound quality when the caps have exceeded their life span.

I had a stack of old Nakamichi plate amps PA300II and PA350 from the early 80's that I gave to a friend around three years ago that are starting to fail now due to the 35 year old caps. We are changing them now before he has anymore issues. Only 14 per amp and even a dumb pipe fitter can handle that. 
Its not a false truth people have talked themselves into believing they need them.....They DO


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## Timskiki

Does anyone have a Orion HCCA 25001 amp or know about the parts/software and hardware in one? Really need a few inside guts pictures of one. Anyone who can help out with this I would really appreciate it. About to pull my hair out over this one.


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## chuyler1

For me it comes down to power requirements, weight and real estate. The new class d amps from major brands aren't bad enough to convince me to upgrade my alternator, install capacitors, extra batteries, and then find space for giant heat sinks....just to squeeze out a little extra sound quality that will be inaudible at 40 mph. 

I love seeing guys here install those old school amps, I have a few myself collecting dust in my basement, but I'm past that for my own builds. 

As far as the cap thing goes, it's not a myth, but the better quality equipment that used better components will last longer. Some of that 90's stuff, especially if it has been used regularly, may be due for maintenance but most of it is probably fine...people don't stress their systems day in day out like other electronics, and some equipment goes years sitting on people's shelves unused.


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## feeshta

Personally I am just getting back into the car audio game after life and other priorities got in the way for a while. The one thing I would say, not having really heard modern class D amps, is that many of us have a bit of a predjudice against them for anything other than sub duty. That's because back in the old school days, they really did suck sound quality wise, nothing subjective about it. It's hard to forget such a thing. 

That said, I am using "old school" amps for my new install. I am doing so partially because I already own them, but mostly because i simply have a hard time believing that a new school amp is going come anywhere close to my old US amps TU series on SQ. There is just simply a whole lot more conniptions going on in a class D amp than a pure class A, single ended amplifier( basically as clean a signal path as you can get) and conniptions are generally bad for SQ. If I had some old class AB stuff, the answer might be different though.


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## Viggen

I wasn't aware maintenance was needed. My old Adcom amps sat in my garage for a long time, purchased new and used for a few years... then sat for a few years... thus i new they had very light use. A few years ago installed them in my Saab. After maybe 3 months of use the gfa5475 failed on me and took a hertz Mille ml1600 with it

I do not blame the amp, I should of known it needed a tuneup

Replaced that with a pheinix gold elite.4 

From a SQ perspective, the newer PG elite amp sounded better..., I didn't expect it to be a upgrade but it was. However I was comparing something brand new to a amp made in the early/mid 90's. Adcom might of sounded better when it was new


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## DC/Hertz

feeshta said:


> Personally I am just getting back into the car audio game after life and other priorities got in the way for a while. The one thing I would say, not having really heard modern class D amps, is that many of us have a bit of a predjudice against them for anything other than sub duty. That's because back in the old school days, they really did suck sound quality wise, nothing subjective about it. It's hard to forget such a thing.
> 
> That said, I am using "old school" amps for my new install. I am doing so partially because I already own them, but mostly because i simply have a hard time believing that a new school amp is going come anywhere close to my old US amps TU series on SQ. There is just simply a whole lot more conniptions going on in a class D amp than a pure class A, single ended amplifier( basically as clean a signal path as you can get) and conniptions are generally bad for SQ. If I had some old class AB stuff, the answer might be different though.


I was in the same boat. About 8 yeas ago I started working back into the hobby. 
I had some old RF power amps that where passed down from my Dad. I used them for about a year or so. One finally lost a channel so I went to a local shop and got talked into Alpine entry level A/B full range and mono class D. IMO it was the exact same. Power was close. 
Then I went to higher end A/B and D with JL slash amps because I heard the old PPI guys designed them. I did increase power a bit so output was increased but they still sounded the same. Now I use all Class D Korean built from one of the higher end Korean built brands. Power was increased a bit but again, they sound the same. But they fit in a shoe box and I have 2400 rms on tap and my stock electical system stays over 14v. 
You will come around. More power, WAY smaller, and WAY more efficient. I'm sure they will last as long as anything else. Mounted upside down in a closed trunk in a black car in Florida. All good for 2 years now. And I'm not easy on equipment.


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## DC/Hertz

Viggen said:


> I wasn't aware maintenance was needed. My old Adcom amps sat in my garage for a long time, purchased new and used for a few years... then sat for a few years... thus i new they had very light use. A few years ago installed them in my Saab. After maybe 3 months of use the gfa5475 failed on me and took a hertz Mille ml1600 with it
> 
> I do not blame the amp, I should of known it needed a tuneup
> 
> Replaced that with a pheinix gold elite.4
> 
> From a SQ perspective, the newer PG elite amp sounded better..., I didn't expect it to be a upgrade but it was. However I was comparing something brand new to a amp made in the early/mid 90's. Adcom might of sounded better when it was new


I'm guessing that was a significant power increase. That itself will lead to sounding better. Power is headroom, output which leads to more dynamic.


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## feeshta

Honestly, I doubt I will "come around". 

You have to understand, one of these amps actually cracked my profound belief that a watt was a watt. I used to run a McIntosh MC431 on the front stage in my old GTI. At the time, I believed this was the best you could really do SQ wise short of adding another pair of channels for a full active 3 way system. I was running it bridged into a DLS UR36 Ultimate setup, as I didn't have DSP capable of making it work actively. I was worried that the tight install room in the GTI was going to cook my Mac though, so I begrudgingly decided to go to the local shop and find a more "modern" smaller amplifier that wouldn't run so hot. This was 2003 for reference. 

Being the sound nut that I am, I ended up talking to an installer rather than a salesman, and happening into a deal on an amplifier I had never heard of, a TU-600, mostly because the installer had heard great things and really wanted to hear one himself. It was much smaller, less powerful, and supposedly inferior to the Mac, but I was already resigned to the Mac dying an early death if I kept it, so this became the the way forward. 

Though all of this, I was expecting a downgrade in sound. The actual results blew my mind. The US Amps absolutely transformed the SQ of my system. Transients in particular went to level I had simply never heard of. This thing is a monster from a sonic perspective. It's level of control over a driver is something I have never heard before, or since. 

So you see, I simply don't believe a digital amp has a hope of reaching this level. The "best" class AB amp in the world by many accounts had it's ass whooped in thoroughly convincing fashion by what I will be running, and the best class D amps are just starting to approach that Mac's level. 

The only thing the "modern" amps have to offer to counter that is ease of install. 

I do love modern DSP though. Truly the best thing to happen to car audio from an SQ perspective in it's entire history. Nothing beats the combo of high quality DSP running a fully active setup through old school single ended tube hybrids.  



DC/Hertz said:


> I was in the same boat. About 8 yeas ago I started working back into the hobby.
> I had some old RF power amps that where passed down from my Dad. I used them for about a year or so. One finally lost a channel so I went to a local shop and got talked into Alpine entry level A/B full range and mono class D. IMO it was the exact same. Power was close.
> Then I went to higher end A/B and D with JL slash amps because I heard the old PPI guys designed them. I did increase power a bit so output was increased but they still sounded the same. Now I use all Class D Korean built from one of the higher end Korean built brands. Power was increased a bit but again, they sound the same. But they fit in a shoe box and I have 2400 rms on tap and my stock electical system stays over 14v.
> You will come around. More power, WAY smaller, and WAY more efficient. I'm sure they will last as long as anything else. Mounted upside down in a closed trunk in a black car in Florida. All good for 2 years now. And I'm not easy on equipment.


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## DC/Hertz

Keep in mind some of the highest scoring SQ cars to date are using class D. 
That i of itself says it all.


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## feeshta

DC/Hertz said:


> Keep in mind some of the highest scoring SQ cars to date are using class D.
> That i of itself says it all.


To my knowledge, nobody has ever run a world class setup with the TU series amps in competition. I suspect had they done so, things would be different. 

The TU series was a small footnote on the audio world at a time when things were transitioning to the "modern" and away from the old school. Things like tubes scream "old school", but the fact remains that they are still the most faithful amplifier of voltage to the original signal ever developed. This is empirically provable. The problem with tube amps was never the tubes, it was the transformers, which were required to provide current to drive a speaker. 

US Amps came up with a way to remove the transformer and replace it with a solid state following circuit, and subsequently removed roughly half of the transistors as normal from the signal path of solid state amplifier. 

Critically, it also allowed them to do away with the AGC circuit all other transistor amplifiers require, because it reduced transistor chain length below the critical point. If you are not familiar with an AGC, AKA Automatic Gain Control, it is basically a compression circuit. It is designed to cut the gains when the input signal spikes. This is to prevent a runaway reaction that would destroy a normal transistor amplifier if it tries to go beyond a certain very limited power level. The AGC's development was a key in the creation of the solid state amplifier. 

Here's the thing though. What do compressors do? They cut out the dynamics, don't they? Music is all about the dynamics. Well, good music is anyway. 

It also says a lot that some of the most highly regarded home audio amplifiers ever seen, including the most recently developed ones of this breed such as the Tenor Audio monoblocks, use exactly the same topology as was originated by the US amps TU series. 

Maybe if they had their own special "class" designation things would have gone another way. I vote for class A+.


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## DC/Hertz

feeshta said:


> To my knowledge, nobody has ever run a world class setup with the TU series amps in competition. I suspect had they done so, things would be different.
> 
> The TU series was a small footnote on the audio world at a time when things were transitioning to the "modern" and away from the old school. Things like tubes scream "old school", but the fact remains that they are still the most faithful amplifier of voltage to the original signal ever developed. This is empirically provable. The problem with tube amps was never the tubes, it was the transformers, which were required to provide current to drive a speaker.
> 
> US Amps came up with a way to remove the transformer and replace it with a solid state following circuit, and subsequently removed roughly half of the transistors as normal from the signal path of solid state amplifier.
> 
> Critically, it also allowed them to do away with the AGC circuit all other transistor amplifiers require, because it reduced transistor chain length below the critical point. If you are not familiar with an AGC, AKA Automatic Gain Control, it is basically a compression circuit. It is designed to cut the gains when the input signal spikes. This is to prevent a runaway reaction that would destroy a normal transistor amplifier if it tries to go beyond a certain very limited power level. The AGC's development was a key in the creation of the solid state amplifier.
> 
> Here's the thing though. What do compressors do? They cut out the dynamics, don't they? Music is all about the dynamics. Well, good music is anyway.
> 
> It also says a lot that some of the most highly regarded home audio amplifiers ever seen, including the most recently developed ones of this breed such as the Tenor Audio monoblocks, use exactly the same topology as was originated by the US amps TU series.
> 
> Maybe if they had their own special "class" designation things would have gone another way. I vote for class A+.


You might enjoy this read. If you find it interesting click the links toward the bottom. It all comes down to , is it audible. The answer is almost always no. Things that a lot of old folks preach is damping factor which has proven to be more about the driver itself. 
Take a look, if you don't agree then at least to have it a shot. It's been going on for a very long time, back when Class D mobile audio amps where still in their early years. 
Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ


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## feeshta

DC/Hertz said:


> You might enjoy this read. If you find it interesting click the links toward the bottom. It all comes down to , is it audible. The answer is almost always no. Things that a lot of old folks preach is damping factor which has proven to be more about the driver itself.
> Take a look, if you don't agree then at least to have it a shot. It's been going on for a very long time, back when Class D mobile audio amps where still in their early years.
> Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ


That is exactly what I USED to believe. 45 seconds with a TU-600 completely changed my mind. Literal one for one swap within 30 minutes, and total transformation of sound quality, despite significantly lower RMS power levels. 

The problem with Clark is he always controls things to well below the amplifier's rated output. That's not a real listening test. It's a con job. I don't listen that way, and many others don't either. 

A single ended design(read no AGC) is able to produce transients well beyond it's RMS power output. Therefore is it able to mimic the sound of a much more powerful amplifier with a musical signal. Basically, it has a drastic advantage in headroom over a conventional design. 

Clark's tests seem specifically designed to remove headroom from the equation.


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## Lurchalicious

I need to necro raise this thread - its my exact question and pondering from getting back into the scene today. I was into car audio late 90's to early 2000. I am trying to wrap my head around today's amplifiers and sizes/ advancements.

I have an old Kicker 2002 KX 700.5 series amplifier. wanted to update my current audio set up and thought why not look at what i have.

Sent it off to be repaired as it was in protection mode. cost me 95 dollars all in to get it back up to snuff and in "refurb" condition. (new power supply and crossover section)

After having communicated with audiofrog about using said Kicker amp (and giving them the specs of 40w x 4 @ 4 ohm and sub 400w X 1 @ 4 ohm), and hearing from the president of audiofrog that they would be a great match up (again refreshing to hear from the head honcho) I auditioned a set of G60s components on an Arc Audio amplifier. sounded good.

I mentioned what amp I was going to use and Got the "well its good but they are only known for power, not being SQ". Dirty power came up as well.

I was shown an arc audio Xvi V2 850.5. impressive for its size and specs. Great reviews here...

Am I going to see a difference using today's amplifier vs my "older" Kicker amp from 2002? 

(caveat - using "older" loosely with this one, I consider Kicker DX amps old school)


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## shutterguy

I find myself fighting with this exact issue. I was just on Ebay looking at the Phoenix Gold ZX350/450/500 series from late 90's. I had those in an install of mine back then, remembered they were very durable and high-quality products.


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## chuyler1

In your home, or in the parking lot, I imagine “dirty power” is something easily identifiable. At 65mph in your typical modern car, not likely so much. This is part of why I lost touch with car audio. I just don’t enjoy music as well as I do at home, no matter what the system is or how “clean” the power is.


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## Lurchalicious

chuyler1 said:


> In your home, or in the parking lot, I imagine “dirty power” is something easily identifiable. At 65mph in your typical modern car, not likely so much. This is part of why I lost touch with car audio. I just don’t enjoy music as well as I do at home, no matter what the system is or how “clean” the power is.


I can see this side. As I am understanding the newer g/h series amplifiers that have emerged are more efficient, but there are still plenty that like the a/b amplifiers.

I also enjoy my home theater setup and try to focus on it - but this along with car audio (any hobby) to me has a point of diminished return. there are always certain thresholds between sounding "good" and pushing your setup for the highest standards possible. And that threshold is usually thousands upon thousands of dollars/insertothercurrencies

My kicker amp works now. And it may not be the front runner of "premium" names right now - but I've been hard pressed to find solid reasons as to why it's inferior to current gear in the same performance level.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


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## chuyler1

Yeah, the curve between money/effort and achieving perfection to me is logarithmic. There is a point at which doubling your efforts will no longer produce double the SQ. For you, going with the Kicker is keeping you out of that bottomless pit. For me, a 50x4 chip amp was enough, especially in a lightweight sports car where I value ease of install, footprint, and weight a little higher than ultimate SQ.


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## Sine Swept

I'm a daily user of said old technology, mixed with an old DSP, though the DSP is roughly 17 years newer than the PPI amps. Together they play. From my understanding a class A/B amp will take to repairs much easier than a D class amp. Also being that they are through hole they are quite fixable for someone with enough knowledge. 

For a friend I replaced caps in his PG M series amps (as well as an Outlaw and a Bandit). These amps are known for certain failing capacitors and if replaced in time they will extend the service of the amps and prevent the board from catching fire. I did it and I'm pretty handy but certainly no kind of professional anything. All amps are in working order and have yet to be put into service.

Are you nostalgic? If not then go with the digital sound and the small footprint.

I have never heard any of the JL Audio D class amps though so until then I cannot comment.


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## GEM592

I already posted on this thread, but I still use a rack of old school amps, on only two batteries in a hybrid vehicle. They are relatively inexpensive, well-made, pretty easy to service or replace, sound great, fit my nostalgia, etc. Several of these have been in the same car, and on the same power, for years now without problems. I have only increased the footprint of my install since I first got going on it.

The downsides are large footprint, and heat. But you aren't going to escape these concerns no matter which way you go. I am driving a tiny hybrid in AZ, by the way.


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## PPI_GUY

From a purely practical standpoint the new class D amps are by far the better (smarter) choice, mainly for all the reasons already mentioned...footprint, efficiency, etc. I have a couple of them that are considered budget or entry level and I am astonished by how good they are. Unless you plan to compete, you would never know the difference in SQ. 

Now, having said all of that I have to come clean....just this week I bought a huge old school Orion surfboard of an amp from 1999. Totally impractical and almost obsolete. But, man is it cool!


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## Lurchalicious

PPI_GUY said:


> From a purely practical standpoint the new class D amps are by far the better (smarter) choice, mainly for all the reasons already mentioned...footprint, efficiency, etc. I have a couple of them that are considered budget or entry level and I am astonished by how good they are. Unless you plan to compete, you would never know the difference in SQ.
> 
> Now, having said all of that I have to come clean....just this week I bought a huge old school Orion surfboard of an amp from 1999. Totally impractical and almost obsolete. But, man is it cool!


I read about footprint and efficiency benefits, but what about sound quality differences? Something the ear will hear? That's the conclusion I could not draw reading this thread. The THD numbers on the a/b section of my old amp are closely comparable to the new one I'm looking at. The class d section has a much better THD level in the new amp (1.5% vs 0.5%)

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


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## dcfis

Pssst, its the tubes! Im using a jpl dual stage pre with a high powered class d. It's glorious , 3d, huge fleshed out sound. Only downside is increased noise floor with 4 dual triode tubes while listening at low volume in a comp sound lane but for everyday usage-Amazing! 







feeshta said:


> Honestly, I doubt I will "come around".
> 
> You have to understand, one of these amps actually cracked my profound belief that a watt was a watt. I used to run a McIntosh MC431 on the front stage in my old GTI. At the time, I believed this was the best you could really do SQ wise short of adding another pair of channels for a full active 3 way system. I was running it bridged into a DLS UR36 Ultimate setup, as I didn't have DSP capable of making it work actively. I was worried that the tight install room in the GTI was going to cook my Mac though, so I begrudgingly decided to go to the local shop and find a more "modern" smaller amplifier that wouldn't run so hot. This was 2003 for reference.
> 
> Being the sound nut that I am, I ended up talking to an installer rather than a salesman, and happening into a deal on an amplifier I had never heard of, a TU-600, mostly because the installer had heard great things and really wanted to hear one himself. It was much smaller, less powerful, and supposedly inferior to the Mac, but I was already resigned to the Mac dying an early death if I kept it, so this became the the way forward.
> 
> Though all of this, I was expecting a downgrade in sound. The actual results blew my mind. The US Amps absolutely transformed the SQ of my system. Transients in particular went to level I had simply never heard of. This thing is a monster from a sonic perspective. It's level of control over a driver is something I have never heard before, or since.
> 
> So you see, I simply don't believe a digital amp has a hope of reaching this level. The "best" class AB amp in the world by many accounts had it's ass whooped in thoroughly convincing fashion by what I will be running, and the best class D amps are just starting to approach that Mac's level.
> 
> The only thing the "modern" amps have to offer to counter that is ease of install.
> 
> I do love modern DSP though. Truly the best thing to happen to car audio from an SQ perspective in it's entire history. Nothing beats the combo of high quality DSP running a fully active setup through old school single ended tube hybrids.


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## PPI_GUY

Lurchalicious said:


> I read about footprint and efficiency benefits, but what about sound quality differences? Something the ear will hear? That's the conclusion I could not draw reading this thread. The THD numbers on the a/b section of my old amp are closely comparable to the new one I'm looking at. The class d section has a much better THD level in the new amp (1.5% vs 0.5%)
> 
> Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


SQ is entirely subjective. Meaning, you and I will have different standards on SQ, basically because we ourselves are all slightly different. Our ears and the way our brains interpret sound differ from person to person. 

Regarding those quoted measurements, was there any info about how the manufacturers arrived at those numbers? What frequencies, decibel levels, gain settings, etc? There are ways to manipulate test results and specs so, keep that in mind.

BTW, you _might_ be able to hear 1.5% distortion in a very quiet setting with the vehicle perfectly sealed and all outside noise muted...but, I doubt it.


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## PPI_GUY

dcfis said:


> Pssst, its the tubes! Im using a jpl dual stage pre with a high powered class d. It's glorious , 3d, huge fleshed out sound. Only downside is increased noise floor with 4 dual triode tubes while listening at low volume in a comp sound lane but for everyday usage-Amazing!


I've always wondered about tubes in the mobile setting. Are you using 12ax7's or ? Would switching to a 12au7 help with the noise floor issues? I ask because I have some experience with tube guitar amps and have seen a significant difference with that swap in my application. 

Wondering how much the class D power amp section is altering or affecting the tube driven pre-amp signal. In the guitar amp world simply having a tube pre-amp section doesn't guarantee a nice tone at the speaker. The signal still has to transition thru the solid state power amp.


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## dcfis

12ax7 mainly it will do 12au7 lower gain still higher noise floor than without tube pre. I suspect a dsp controlled input and gain structure of something like the biketronics self biasing amps would be the ticket and maybe the next thing i try. It doesn't bother me but I'd like to see if i could recommend it to comp guys as it makes a world of difference. 

Im not familiar with guitar amps but very much so with hifi tube amps. I can ascertain the different characteristics of each tube very easily just like at home. Im impressed


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## Gramps

I’m all in for the old school goodness, 
I was into car audio in the mid-late 90’s, using mostly alpine and rockford fosgate gear.
Now that I’m building another project, I’m using gear from the same era, not only because i know how they sounded back then, but they were built out of china, and I’m a fan of quality over quantity, oh, and now they are soooo damn cheap to pick up!!!!
Krem


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## JohnBoneawesome34

Well I don't know about the newer brands and their amps just yet, just coming back to this but I can attest there was some good s**t produced in the 90s... even early 2000s. Stuff like Ample amps, I don't know if anything has come to the markets that can compete with that


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## boricua69

DC/Hertz said:


> Keep in mind some of the highest scoring SQ cars to date are using class D.
> That i of itself says it all.


Did you know that many of those “competition cars(class d-garbage)” aren’t so good for playing normal music! Is similar to Miss Universe contest!


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## PPI_GUY

boricua69 said:


> Did you know that many of those “competition cars(class d-garbage)” aren’t so good for playing normal music! Is similar to Miss Universe contest!


What are you talking about "normal music"? Some of the tracks used to judge SQ vehicles are among the finest recording you can find. 
I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between a class D powered system and a old school class A/B setup in a blind test.


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## BadSS

My first decent amp was a HiFonics Odin IV I bought in 1986 – I ran that amp until 2007 and it was still going when I swapped it out for a new old stock Gen X Sampson I bought around 2002. I pushed that thing super hard up until around 1992 and still cranked on it quite often. The only difference in the old IV and the Gen X was a little better highs and the noise floor, or lack thereof in the Gen X – it’s basically nonexistent. It’s almost 2019 and I’m still running the Gen X amps in my current ride - I think they were made around 1998?? If so, then they’re twenty years old and still going strong.

On a related note, I literally pulled a HiFonics VI out of a flooded trunk wheel well from a buddy’s recently purchased hot rod back around 1990?? Took off the bottom plate, dried it out, used a couple cans of contact cleaner and a soft bristle brush to clean it up, cleaned up the rust on the end plates and shot a little paint on them, let it air out for almost a week,,, put it back together and ran the dog crap out of that thing until I swapped it out in 2007. I kid you not – felt like I stole it for the $40 he wanted for it.

Aside from putting in a couple systems for a few friends, including Cerwin Vega EXL, Blaupunkt THA, Boston GT4200, and JL HD amps, I can’t really speak to the newer amps and those I listed are getting old. However, based on my experience,,, I thought the old Blaupunkt class D amps were weak and hollow but those HD JL amps sounded pretty dang good to me. They didn’t sound any different to me than what I might hear comparing two old school A/B amps – which I have (Orion GX280, Hifonics IV, VI, Gen X, MB Quart RAA4200, Diamond D5s, Boston GT40 and GT42s). 

Again, can't really speak on the quality of the new stuff, but every Zed made HiFonics I've own are standing the test of time.


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## K-pop sucks

I just read every post here. Seems that people who only care about competing( whatever that means) goes class D. True audiophile and people wanting the best sound go class A or A/B. Just like home audio amps.


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## Aldaa




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## nyquistrate

K-pop sucks said:


> I just read every post here. Seems that people who only care about competing( whatever that means) goes class D. True audiophile and people wanting the best sound go class A or A/B. Just like home audio amps.


I don't see how you draw that conclusion. Please elaborate.


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## TheLex

You want old school? Look what I just found BNIB under some stuff in my garage lol.

It would probably melt down my Subaru Ascent's electrics.


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## BudgetSQ

If you were looking for a subwoofer amp for an inexpensive 10" today which would you choose given the same price:

Alpine MRP-T220 (circa 2003) or a brand new Rockville amplifier?


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## ca90ss

Rockville.


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## asianinvasion21

I prefer class AB amps over class D. I also believe cost wasn't really an issue when building some of the good quality amps back in the 90s and early 2000s. I feel like almost every brand had a high quality amplifier to offer. You pretty much give up size and efficiency going with class AB. I definitely think the benefits of going to class D outweigh class AB amps for most people. I still think a good ol classic AB amp sounds better if the caps and components are rebuilt to spec.


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## Mc4life2769

chefhow said:


> Just remember, its a FACT that older amps fail, and when they do it will cost you more than then cost of a new amp. The new amps from reputable brands that care about build quality will last you much longer than that older amp you are looking at.
> IF you are looking at a rebuilt older amp find out who rebuilt it, talk to them to see what was done and if its worth paying that price.


Your wrong and this is a stupid theory.


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## Lexingtonian

Mc4life2769 said:


> Your wrong and this is a stupid theory.


Resurrecting an almost 2 year old thread just to use incorrect English, crap on it and provide zero value is incredibly bad form.


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## chefhow

Mc4life2769 said:


> Your wrong and this is a stupid theory.


You're wrong not Your......


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## Theslaking

Mc4life2769 said:


> Your wrong and this is a stupid theory.


As mentioned in the other thread these types of replies are not helpful to this site or community. You can think these things but elaborate and educate. Don't just criticize.


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## Gary S

Bah Humbug! Old school amps were nothing special. I was selling Fosgate punch 45, 75, Power 300, Power 650, Kenwood amps, Alpine, Sony, and who knows what else back in the day. 

Sure, my Soundstream Reference amp had soft clipping. So what? an average amp kept under clipping sounds the same.

By the way, did you know that all car amps today are Rockford Fosgate clones? - they are all tri-mode, they have an inverter in one channel. Fosgate started that. 

Old school amps are nastalgic ..... I love to see an old amp......it takes me back in time, and triggers other nice memories from days gone by. Would I want it in my car? - no way, it would probably catch on fire, lol!!!

I think class D is the future.


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