# Some confusion in regards to "punchy" bass



## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

Hey guys, I've been a lurker on these forums for a while now, and finally felt the need to post a question.

I'm looking for some examples of subwoofers that provide punchy bass, or at least what size/parameters I should look for?

First of all, I should state by "punchy" I mean bass that you really feel, like the kick in the chest from a bass drum at a rock concert, or loud low bass notes that really shake you from the PA system playing techno or rap, etc.

I've read that the punchiness from a system comes from the mid-bass drivers... My only question to this is, how is it that this same effect is achieved by the bass bins of PA systems for performing bands that containing 18 inch or larger drivers?

If this effect can be from the subwoofer, is it purely due to high SPL? After reading a little more, I read that punchiness comes from fast drivers; those with low inductance. Many people used this fact to defend larger drivers, stating that 15 inch drivers can be just as punchy as smaller drivers. But, after looking at the T/S parameters of a few different subs, I found that most smaller subs have much lower inductances. 

After lurking the forums for quite a while, I figured I would probably pick up the JBL W12GTI when the time arrises, seeing as it is highly praised on these forums. But my friend insists that a couple of ten inch subs would be much punchier and sound better. I then checked out the W15GTI and thought it might be the best choice (assuming it too can be punchy), seeing as it would have better low-note response, on top of being slightly more efficient.

HOWEVER the w15gti has over double the inductance of the w10gti.


I realize you can't give any specific recommendations without knowing what kind of power I will be feeding it, what kind and size of enclosure I'd be using, etc, etc. But, at this point I'm not looking for a specific recommendation; right now I am simply wondering what characteristics each size of woofer lends itself to: specifically toward being able to feel the bass while retaining the lower frequency response due to my wide variety of musical tastes (from jazz and classical to bass-heavy techno, bassdrum-heavy hard rock and some low-bass crazy rap).

Sorry for the dumb question, as I'm sure every newb to audio asks about the difference between subwoofer sizes... I think I've posted this in the right forum at least!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

MidBass is what you're after 

Use some of these or similar drivers>>>










JL Audio IB10s


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

So it is midbass hey?... How is it that huge subwoofers at concert achieve the same effect then? Sorry, I'm not trying to challenge you, just curious.

What is it about the IB10s that makes them such good midbass drivers?


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Most concert sub bins are folded horns with a small enclosure, they're tuned high and don't reproduce sub bass well individually. They're used in multiples to couple together to reproduce low bass as well.

Hopefully Chad will step in to either correct my terminology or add the specifics of why/how this works.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

The IB is the key 

They play loud due to surface area from 50Hz up to 200Hz [ for midbass ], coupled with a sub playing 53Hz and down the low end will appear to be on the dash

quote:
*The main problem is there isn't enough mid bass punch *from the Peerless to keep the bass up front unless the subs are turned down. The tweets are pretty smooth but the mid drivers just ain't hanging with the rest. Since I placed the tweets on the dash I have to tone down the treble around 2-4khz by about 2 notches on the deck to get a even response but still midbass is not quite as strong as I'd like it to be. Need a more robust driver. 
quote:

Mid bass is what most crave . example ^ ^ ^


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks for the quick replies! Damn I love this site!

So what makes a driver a good mid bass driver (T/S specs?)?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

This is what usually happens >>>> 
quote:

I want some mid bass punch and good tweets. Not that annoy crap one hears down the the road going BOOM BOOM. A class act is what I want. Thank you. I hope you can help. Ricky 

quote:

Just save some money and get some great midbass drivers and you'll be happy !

Search midbass speakers


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

I had the same question and wanted exactly what you are looking for, but I couldnt fit bigger midbass than 6.5" and really didnt want to change my components just yet...
So, after tons of research, I came to the conclusion that I wanted a sub with a high Le, low MMS, high sensitivity and highish Fs.
So I found the Focal 38KXspl. Le = 1.1, 98dB, Fs 47Hz
I have it in a 5 cube box tuned to 44 Hz, and it is absolutely amazing. Fast, accurate, heart stopping chest thumping kickbass.... yesterday I rented Kill Bill Volume 1, and oh boy its a blast to feel this subwoofer kick you
I never thought a ported sub could sound sooooo goood. Its absolutely perfect and just what I was looking for. Feel free to ask any question, ill be glad to help you out!


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## ehkewley (Jul 19, 2008)

Steak said:


> I had the same question and wanted exactly what you are looking for, but I couldnt fit bigger midbass than 6.5" and really didnt want to change my components just yet...
> So, after tons of research, I came to the conclusion that I wanted a sub with a high Le, low MMS, high sensitivity and highish Fs.
> So I found the Focal 38KXspl. Le = 1.1, 98dB, Fs 47Hz
> I have it in a 5 cube box tuned to 44 Hz, and it is absolutely amazing. Fast, accurate, heart stopping chest thumping kickbass.... yesterday I rented Kill Bill Volume 1, and oh boy its a blast to feel this subwoofer kick you
> I never thought a ported sub could sound sooooo goood. Its absolutely perfect and just what I was looking for. Feel free to ask any question, ill be glad to help you out!


I assume that also included a fair bit of EQ on the bottom end as well right?


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

ehkewley said:


> I assume that also included a fair bit of EQ on the bottom end as well right?



No sir, buy I do think I could benefit from some EQ and definitively some TA. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I should be able to install an H701 processor so I can fine tune the system and get a proper review up...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> This is what usually happens >>>>
> quote:
> I want some mid bass punch and good tweets. Not that annoy crap one hears down the the road going BOOM BOOM. A class act is what I want. Thank you. I hope you can help. Ricky
> quote:





Steak said:


> I had the same question and wanted exactly what you are looking for, but I couldnt fit bigger midbass than 6.5" and really didnt want to change my components just yet...
> So, after tons of research, I came to the conclusion that I wanted a sub with a high Le, low MMS, high sensitivity and highish Fs.
> So I found the Focal 38KXspl. Le = 1.1, 98dB, Fs 47Hz
> I have it in a 5 cube box tuned to 44 Hz, and it is absolutely amazing. Fast, accurate, heart stopping chest thumping kickbass.... yesterday I rented Kill Bill Volume 1, and oh boy its a blast to feel this subwoofer kick you
> I never thought a ported sub could sound sooooo goood. Its absolutely perfect and just what I was looking for. Feel free to ask any question, ill be glad to help you out!



If you can run the sub up into midbass range and the fact it is coming from behind you doesn't matter . . . see top post ^ ^ ^

JL subs do play well into higher frequencies [ which is why they can be used as midbasses ]


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Steak said:


> I had the same question and wanted exactly what you are looking for, but I couldnt fit bigger midbass than 6.5" and really didnt want to change my components just yet...
> So, after tons of research, I came to the conclusion that I wanted a sub with a high Le, low MMS, high sensitivity and highish Fs.
> So I found the Focal 38KXspl. Le = 1.1, 98dB, Fs 47Hz
> I have it in a 5 cube box tuned to 44 Hz, and it is absolutely amazing. Fast, accurate, heart stopping chest thumping kickbass.... yesterday I rented Kill Bill Volume 1, and oh boy its a blast to feel this subwoofer kick you
> I never thought a ported sub could sound sooooo goood. Its absolutely perfect and just what I was looking for. Feel free to ask any question, ill be glad to help you out!


Holy crap 5 cubes. With much space you might as well _have _a folded horn or a normal 15" PA woofer like was mentioned above.


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> If you can run the sub up into midbass range and the fact it is coming from behind you doesn't matter . . . see top post ^ ^ ^
> 
> JL subs do play well into higher frequencies [ which is why they can be used as midbasses ]


well its not that it plays into the midbass range, actually its crossed around 70Hz, 2nd order... what matters here is the transition from sub to midbass, and this is were subs with a large Le fail miserably...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Steak said:


> well its not that it plays into the midbass range, actually its crossed around 70Hz, 2nd order... what matters here is the transition from sub to midbass, and this is were subs with a large Le fail miserably...


If you are trying to get punch and not rumble from a sub , it has to play higher frequencies.

Midbass is where impact comes from


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

94VG30DE said:


> Holy crap 5 cubes. With much space you might as well _have _a folded horn or a normal 15" PA woofer like was mentioned above.


When space is not a main concern, then yes there are many options. However at this point Im extremely satisfied of how this project turned out...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

A big sub box here is like .75 cu ft


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> If you are trying to get punch and not rumble from a sub , it has to play higher frequencies.
> 
> Midbass is where impact comes from


I digress and at the same time invite you to come down here for a couple of beers and a listen


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

To the OP: I was in a similar boat as you are, a couple of months ago. Read thouroughly this thread, and the link in it, lots of useful (though not really conclusive) information
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...x-subwoofers-tight-punchy-vs-boomy-loose.html


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> "tight punchy" bass is the midbass characteristic of the sub.
> Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner!


good read steak


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> A big sub box here is like .75 cu ft


I know... I finally gave in and decided to lose my trunk... no regrets yet!


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> A big sub box here is like .75 cu ft


That's what I was thinking. I'm pissed that I have to lose .7+basket/cone displacement, and you are talking 5 cubes. I don't think I even have 5 cu ft total behind my seat to put AIR in, let alone a sub box. 

From previous thread: 


> My feeling is that the better solution for midbass response, and a "tight" sounding sub, is a strong front midbass driver that can dig deep.


Seems like everything I have ever read is saying that while the massive VBA that _comes with_ that feeling of being "punched in the chest" does usually come from sub-bass, the "impact" component of a kick drum especially is much higher in the spectrum. So while your sub is shaking your rearview mirror, your 7" midbass is the thing that is telling you what beater Tim Alexander has on his kickpedal that day. 

I'm at work, otherwise I would post the link I have bookmarked at home that shows the primary and secondary components of a ton of instruments across the frequency bands.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

The punchy "kick" is a product of both the sub and mid bass. The subs move the majority of the air but when paired with a good mid, the sound is pulled up front and you get the feeling that the kick drum is what caused the sudden slug to your chest. 

Drums cover a huge range when you take into consideration their harmonics. Even tweeters will play a roll in defining a kick drum. 

I agree that a good midbass is necessary for this effect, however, don't think that you can duplicate this effect with just a good midbass. You need a decent sub to really make the experience come alive.


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## ehkewley (Jul 19, 2008)

gijoe said:


> *Drums cover a huge range when you take into consideration their harmonics. Even tweeters will play a roll in defining a kick drum.
> *


Unless you have an album like And Justice For All where the tweeters are the only drivers playing the kick.


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the suggestions!

That's a great read, TY Steak!


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

If you want a sub that makes it sound like the bass is coming from your mids then you should check out the Morel Ultimo subs. I wrote a review so I don't want to say too much, other than that it is a very transparent sub.


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