# Subwoofer over 4000w?



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

I'm looking for sub recommendations, here's what I was looking for.

I have rather limited space. 38" wide, 18.5" Tall, 17" deep. Right now I have a single 12 ported that takes the entire space but its only about 2000w.

I'm wanting to put a lot more power in the same space... Say maybe 5000w on music (rap). 

How many subs, what subs, what size etc do you all think would give me the most bang for the buck?

Thanks all --- btw I'm only asking because I cant seem to find subs that in that power range that would fit in that box. I've seen things like the kicker solo x 18 that does 5k but way to big of a box. I think the only sub I've seen that would fit with that kind of power is the DD Z series but $4000 is a bit much for 1 sub and it would laugh at 5000w.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

2 12" ported should fit in that space

also 5k of substage daily will require some serious upgrade to the car electrical

What are you trying to achieve here? car? wanna hit high SPL?


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

basshead said:


> 2 12" ported should fit in that space
> 
> also 5k of substage daily will require some serious upgrade to the car electrical
> 
> What are you trying to achieve here? car? wanna hit high SPL?


not to mention some serious upgrade in ear protection. 

you can hit 140+db with a single 15" with around 2000watts. why would you need more than that unless you are competing? 140db is damaging to your hearing

you could get (2) DD 9515 in that space, ported. they are only about $800. 9500 series will take 2500 watts all day.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Look at Level 5 DC's as well.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

JL W7.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> JL W7.


did you read what he wanted? W7s will handle about 1000 watts. great SQ sub, but I have a feeling he just wants loud.


----------



## MoparMike (Feb 14, 2012)

chefhow said:


> Look at Level 5 DC's as well.


+1. Recently helped a friend build a box for his SPL build for two 15 inch Level 4 DCs and those things not only hit but can take some power. The Level 5 would be a good choice.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

minbari said:


> did you read what he wanted? W7s will handle about 1000 watts. great SQ sub, but I have a feeling he just wants loud.


Did you read what he wanted? W7's have been tested up to 50k watts and have pegged 170's in pure spl setups.


----------



## eeclipse16 (Jan 16, 2011)

jcarver said:


> it would laugh at 5000w.


I like your choice of words, that made me laugh.


Tapatalk 2


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> Did you read what he wanted? W7's have been tested up to 50k watts and have pegged 170's in pure spl setups.


again......did you read what he wants? he wants a sub that will handle 2-5k watts all day long.............the W7 will NOT do it.

he doesnt want a 50kwatts 2sec burp machine.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

minbari said:


> again......did you read what he wants? he wants a sub that will handle 2-5k watts all day long.............the W7 will NOT do it.
> 
> he doesnt want a 50kwatts 2sec burp machine.


This was 50k watts over a period of time, for testing, by Richard Clark. Without blowing.

The 170 was by Nate Munson.

Of course you knew this though.......


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Oh snap.........look how much RMS power JL rocks in their Gotham home sub.

3800 watts.

Newbs.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

post a link then. I dont beleive for a sec that ANY speaker on the entire planet ANYWHERE. will take 50k watts for more than a couple seconds, if that.

prove me wrong


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

minbari said:


> post a link then. I dont beleive for a sec that ANY speaker on the entire planet ANYWHERE. will take 50k watts for more than a couple seconds, if that.
> 
> prove me wrong


Just because you don't believe, doesn't make it untrue. If you cared so much, Google the info.


----------



## lionelc5 (Oct 31, 2011)

TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer
TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer 293-666

If it wont fit, use the 15"


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> Just because you don't believe, doesn't make it untrue. If you cared so much, Google the info.


you are the one who made ridiculous statements with no proof and now are unwilling to back it up.


----------



## db_Outlaw (May 10, 2012)

I had a pair of 12w7s (sealed) each powered by a Zapco 9.0 in my escort back in the day. The 9.0 was too much for a W7. They can take a lot, but not 2200W. Scored 149.8 dB off a termlab.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I just pointed out to you that JL Audio has a 3800 watt amp in it's Gotham sub. That's 1900 watta per sub from the factory.

What more do I need to point out to you? Just pick up your face and go home already.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> I just pointed out to you that JL Audio has a 3800 watt amp in it's Gotham sub. That's 1900 watta per sub from the factory.
> 
> What more do I need to point out to you? Just pick up your face and go home already.


ah-huh. far cry from 50kw


----------



## thomasluke (Jun 10, 2011)

minbari said:


> ah-huh. far cry from 50kw


I'm with mini on this, NO sub in the world is going to stand up to 50,000 watts for a period of time. Take that jl and put it in a wall socket. See what happens.
And thats still no where near 50,000 watts.


----------



## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> I just pointed out to you that JL Audio has a 3800 watt amp in it's Gotham sub. That's 1900 watta per sub from the factory.
> 
> What more do I need to point out to you? Just pick up your face and go home already.


Since you are wanting to be a dick to mini I tested your claim by doing several searches and came up with ZIP. 50k to a w7 my ass. Prove it or shut up. 

And then to try to prove your claim by mentioning a JL sub that takes 2000 watts :laugh:


----------



## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

BTW while I was searching I found that you can find JL w7 on Alibaba and other asian trading websites. Perhaps we can rebrand them as DIYMA subs lol.


----------



## daveds50 (Jun 10, 2011)

minbari said:


> post a link then. I dont beleive for a sec that ANY speaker on the entire planet ANYWHERE. will take 50k watts for more than a couple seconds, if that.
> 
> prove me wrong


ooooh ! i like a challenge like that ! i am going out into the yard to dig up some of the cable from the electric company to use as my voice coil windings for my 20 foot sub... 

the coil/cone may weigh 800 lbs and sound like crap... but it will play all day and knock trees over. :laugh:


----------



## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

daveds50 said:


> ooooh ! i like a challenge like that ! i am going out into the yard to dig up some of the cable from the electric company to use as my voice coil windings for my 20 foot sub...
> 
> the coil/cone may weigh 800 lbs and sound like crap... but it will play all day and knock trees over. :laugh:


 
That will probably get down lower then my 36" sub. See my vid hehe

Mega Bass Test - YouTube


----------



## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

jcarver said:


> I think the only sub I've seen that would fit with that kind of power is the DD Z series but $4000 is a bit much for 1 sub and it would laugh at 5000w.


You aren't kidding. Here is a vid of those DD's taking 10-20k watts each. Atleast that is what the description states. 

40.000Watt Hummer H2 - YouTube


----------



## daveds50 (Jun 10, 2011)

07azhhr said:


> That will probably get down lower then my 36" sub. See my vid hehe
> 
> Mega Bass Test - YouTube


 how weak ! thats about 18 feet smaller than mine will be... i am going to use my whole house for the box.


----------



## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

daveds50 said:


> how weak ! thats about 18 feet smaller than mine will be... i am going to use my whole house for the box.


 
:bowdown:


----------



## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

The AQ 20 isn't even rated to do the full 20k if I remember right it's only like 10 or 15.. Now also being realistic there's no way your gonna touch that 15k in music.. Maybe on test tones but that's it..

While on the subject of AQ.. The hdc4 will do the job perfect.. It's not high sq but will handle the power plenty easy and like smaller boxes. Going from the spl to sq attitude I can tell u it's very little to do with watts. Try a horn or bandpass for much higher peaks and tuning to your resonant frequency.


----------



## Underground Audio (May 29, 2012)

Here is a vid showing those super duper JL crap not taking the heat. In case anyone was curious.
MTX 9500 vs. L7 vs. W7 - YouTube


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Youtube video "verification" is always a sign things have gone downhill.


----------



## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

Please go back to ca.com


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

> 2 12" ported should fit in that space
> also 5k of substage daily will require some serious upgrade to the car electrical
> What are you trying to achieve here? car? wanna hit high SPL?


Electrical will be ok and more than enough to support it so no worries there. What I want to achieve??? Do you all remember that guy that everyone seems to know that has a really nice classic car in his garage that’s putting down something like 600+hp at the wheels but he never takes it out to race. He just bring it out for pleasure but it’s got so much power that you can feel the ground shake as he pulls away from the stop sign and all you can do is drull. That’s me with my subs. I might drop in at a competition here and there as a spectator, let others enjoy my hard work, take my car out and enjoy it at regular listening levels, and show it off to friends from time to time but really it’s just something I enjoy. I like the power; I’ve very passionate about it. At 15 years old I had 4 18” loud speakers in my bedroom … Simply it’s just what I do. So what I want is… 4k-5k rms that I can listen to as regular music, sq isn’t that import because of the type of music but when I want to have a little fun I want to have the SPL…. Without a wall lol. I will likely tune very low so SPL isn’t everything to me but the more power I can put in there the higher SPL I can hit, even tuned low.



> not to mention some serious upgrade in ear protection.
> you can hit 140+db with a single 15" with around 2000watts. why would you need more than that unless you are competing? 140db is damaging to your hearing
> you could get (2) DD 9515 in that space, ported. they are only about $800. 9500 series will take 2500 watts all day.


It will be at reasonable listening levels 95% of the time. I hit over 140 now with a single 12, and its ok but I still want more.. You know how it is. About the two 9515’s, with a double front and rear wall and 3/4 in mdf, I have 5.0 gross feet inside… so a sub that size is going to need a really nice size port due to the amout of air its moving. My estimate, after port, basing and sub were talking maybe 3.5…. I don’t see that’s with just 1 sub… I don’t know how 2 of those will fit and 1 wont give me the power I want. 




> Look at Level 5 DC's as well.


This one has me intrigued…. Site states 1.5 ft for a 12… is that right???? Seems way way to small. 3.75 for the 15… I could probably get by with that. One thought I have is that’s an spl sub (as I would expect) but most vendors recommendations for box size on high end spl subs are to small for music. Does anyone have experience with these 12’s or 15’s on music.. how do they sound.. how big did the box need to be to get it to play right. 



> JL W7.


Umm… lol… Do you have one of these… if you would like I would be happy to hook it up to my amp and blow it apart for you. Vendor voids warranty at 1500… Even if it didn’t blow on 5000 (which it will on music) it will stop getting louder at 2k. 50k… It couldn’t do this on its best day… the terminal and coils would melt. The spiders would catch on fire… the material wasn’t designed to take that kind of current. 



> Did you read what he wanted? W7's have been tested up to 50k watts and have pegged 170's in pure spl setups.


Come on guys give him a break… technically he’s right.. As he said “W7’s” …. Like 20 of them on 50k should get you in the 170’s… 1 on 50k would just = a great show. No worries though he just forgot about the box limitations  



> TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer
> TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer 293-666
> If it wont fit, use the 15"


18 cant fit the surface area of the box isn’t big enough to put that hole in it lol… 15 isn’t near powerful enough and the sensitivity is less than that of my 12 with the same rms… which should mean that my current 12 is louder… no enclose specs on their site so not sure if they work well in a small box so I cant assume that I could use 2 of the 12’s. 



> I had a pair of 12w7s (sealed) each powered by a Zapco 9.0 in my escort back in the day. The 9.0 was too much for a W7. They can take a lot, but not 2200W. Scored 149.8 dB off a termlab.


That’s actually nice for those subs. What car was it. 



> ooooh ! i like a challenge like that ! i am going out into the yard to dig up some of the cable from the electric company to use as my voice coil windings for my 20 foot sub...
> the coil/cone may weigh 800 lbs and sound like crap... but it will play all day and knock trees over


Make it waterproof and I’ll take one. We can just build a steak frame on the top of my car. Invert mount it to the roof so its firing in and you would be in the sub box… It’s a scion xb so kinda looks like one anyway lo. 



> You aren't kidding. Here is a vid of those DD's taking 10-20k watts each. Atleast that is what the description states.


Yep just cant bring myself to drop 4k on 1 sub and if I did I wouldn’t be putting 5kw to it it would be 15k



> how weak ! thats about 18 feet smaller than mine will be... i am going to use my whole house for the box


I can’t believe none has done this yet with the jackhammer and partitioning off the attic as the box lol… can you say 150db in your living room lol… I’m actually seriously considering this now. I’m gonna talk to the wife about it. Stetsom make an ac power supply that does like 14k if I’m not mistaken. 2 of those on the jackhammer should be enough to piss off every neighbor in the city limits lol.



> The AQ 20 isn't even rated to do the full 20k if I remember right it's only like 10 or 15.. Now also being realistic there's no way your gonna touch that 15k in music.. Maybe on test tones but that's it..
> While on the subject of AQ.. The hdc4 will do the job perfect.. It's not high sq but will handle the power plenty easy and like smaller boxes. Going from the spl to sq attitude I can tell u it's very little to do with watts. Try a horn or bandpass for much higher peaks and tuning to your resonant frequency.


The dhc4 is rated at 2k, it will get up to about 3.5k before it gets stinky. Also this sub like larger boxes than what the audioque recommends… I’ve built them. The 12 likes about 3.5 even though they say 2.75 is the highest for the 12. The 15 likes about 6.0 net. Music needs a wide spectrum of frequency. 





> ............................................Thinking.................................


DC L5, if I could fit 2 of the 12's that would be pretty cool... net on each box would halve to be about 1.5 What do you all think. 

Any thoughts on BTL N3. Rated at 3k rms. What will they really handle on music. how do they sound? Not my first choice but maybe a last resort. Looks like they want really large boxes though so only a 12...


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I knew I should have let the kids have the sandbox.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

How about the soundstream x3.... 5k but I know nothing about there subs


----------



## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

07azhhr said:


> You aren't kidding. Here is a vid of those DD's taking 10-20k watts each. Atleast that is what the description states.
> 
> 40.000Watt Hummer H2 - YouTube


All I saw in that vid is a good way of destroying a Hummer (in the long run, that thing will fall apart). Can't believe people these days, more more more more and more pow-wa please!!


----------



## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Underground Audio said:


> Here is a vid showing those super duper JL crap not taking the heat. In case anyone was curious.
> MTX 9500 vs. L7 vs. W7 - YouTube


Mister did you see who produced/directed the video......MTX.. so ofcourse their not going to state nor claim that they blew up a few of their own subs while testing. But they're quick to mention the Kicker and JL sub blowing up. Sorry but I dont fall for that type of crap.

Gotta love advertisment. Give that sub to Jimmy96 and I bet he can blow it up in a few seconds, lol:laugh:.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

TrickyRicky said:


> All I saw in that vid is a good way of destroying a Hummer (in the long run, that thing will fall apart). Can't believe people these days, more more more more and more pow-wa please!!


I know it's great lol


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

TrickyRicky said:


> Mister did you see who produced/directed the video......MTX.. so ofcourse their not going to state nor claim that they blew up a few of their own subs while testing. But they're quick to mention the Kicker and JL sub blowing up. Sorry but I dont fall for that type of crap.
> 
> Gotta love advertisment. Give that sub to Jimmy96 and I bet he can blow it up in a few seconds, lol:laugh:.


I was thinking the same thing. What I love is they are comparing 2 subs that while they may be mid-high power subs are not designed to handle the power of the 9500. How about comparing a 9500 to the DD9912 CF or a DC5 or some of the Incriminator Audio subs. That would be more in line then what they are doing. Its just more of people hating on what they cant accomplish, if you cant beat em....


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

chefhow said:


> I was thinking the same thing. What I love is they are comparing 2 subs that while they may be mid-high power subs are not designed to handle the power of the 9500. How about comparing a 9500 to the DD9912 CF or a DC5 or some of the Incriminator Audio subs. That would be more in line then what they are doing. Its just more of people hating on what they cant accomplish, if you cant beat em....


... buy the other guys stuff


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

So looking around I see a lot of people that say the DC Level 5 12's work better in 2.0 to 2.5 net so I dont know that I could get 2 of them in there and still sound good on music. Also one big thing, I cant seem to find hardly anyone hitting good numbers with the dc level 5's. I'm seeing things like 140-142 for the 12, 143-146 for the 15, 148 to 151 for the 18. all of them where on 3k.... Are these things just not loud or somehting. I've even watched a few youtube videos and the cars done seem to be flexing much for having a sub that powerful


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

DOH!!!


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

jcarver said:


> So looking around I see a lot of people that say the DC Level 5 12's work better in 2.0 to 2.5 net so I dont know that I could get 2 of them in there and still sound good on music. Also one big thing, I cant seem to find hardly anyone hitting good numbers with the dc level 5's. I'm seeing things like 140-142 for the 12, 143-146 for the 15, 148 to 151 for the 18. all of them where on 3k.... Are these things just not loud or somehting. I've even watched a few youtube videos and the cars done seem to be flexing much for having a sub that powerful


Contact Scott Snyder, I watched several of his DC cars hit high 140's with single Level 4 15's. He can design an enclosure if that is what you want to use.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> So looking around I see a lot of people that say the DC Level 5 12's work better in 2.0 to 2.5 net so I dont know that I could get 2 of them in there and still sound good on music. Also one big thing, I cant seem to find hardly anyone hitting good numbers with the dc level 5's. I'm seeing things like 140-142 for the 12, 143-146 for the 15, 148 to 151 for the 18. all of them where on 3k.... Are these things just not loud or somehting. I've even watched a few youtube videos and the cars done seem to be flexing much for having a sub that powerful


what in the sensitivity of the sub? this is where the rubber meets the road. if I have a 91db 1w/1m sub and on 1000 watts I get 140 db out of it.(just for argument sake) then a 81db 1w/1m super ground pounder sub will need 10kw to pull off the same thing.

I know in SPL you need alot of power and big subs, etc. but this is kinda what a few of us have been saying in alot of threads. get a good efficient sub, put it in an efficient enclosure (or IB) and you dont need 3kw.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> what in the sensitivity of the sub? this is where the rubber meets the road. if I have a 91db 1w/1m sub and on 1000 watts I get 140 db out of it.(just for argument sake) then a 81db 1w/1m super ground pounder sub will need 10kw to pull off the same thing.
> 
> I know in SPL you need alot of power and big subs, etc. but this is kinda what a few of us have been saying in alot of threads. get a good efficient sub, put it in an efficient enclosure (or IB) and you dont need 3kw.


Your words are music to my ears... this is exactly what I have been trying to do. I can't find anywhere the sensetivity of the DC Level 5, not on there website and google cant seem to help either. I'm gonna guess its low. 85 maybe... just guessing though based on the size of the motor, the low numbers I've seen guys hit. I could be way off though. Now I did an hdc3 12 copper which has a sensetivity of a little over 90 on 2k watts in a 3.5 box and had no problem hitting mid 140's. I'm going to guess a level 5 would probably sound the same on 3k and I would just be wasting money.... Any thoughts from you DC guys? To be honest if I cant hit 150 off of 5k watts the sub(s) probably arent the best. Given enclosure has a ton to do with it, yes I know that, and I will make sure enclosure is idea if not nearly perfect. But any high powered sub in the right box can get loud. I need something that can get really loud on a small box (3.5 - 4 total)

Anyone have any experice with the Atomic apxx on music or should that sub be left to spl only? This is what I found on them. The sensetivity looks like maybe they did it on 2.84v instead of 1w... what do you all think? and an xmax of 10mm... is this right?

APXX12D2 APXX15D1	
Revc	(ohms ) 3.60 1.80 
Fo	(Hz) 42.20 39.80 
Sd	(sqM) ..0550	0.089 
Bl	(TM) 37.66 27.11 
SPLo	(dB) 94.34 95.46 
Xmax	(mm)	10 10 
Dvc	(mm) 75.00 75.00 
Qms	(m.q.) 2.83 3.12 
Qes	(e.q.)	.133 .175 
Qts	(totQ)	.127 .165 
Vas	(liter) 31 63 
Cms	(uM-N) 72. 56 
Mms	(gram) 197 285


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> what in the sensitivity of the sub? this is where the rubber meets the road. if I have a 91db 1w/1m sub and on 1000 watts I get 140 db out of it.(just for argument sake) then a 81db 1w/1m super ground pounder sub will need 10kw to pull off the same thing.
> 
> I know in SPL you need alot of power and big subs, etc. but this is kinda what a few of us have been saying in alot of threads. get a good efficient sub, put it in an efficient enclosure (or IB) and you dont need 3kw.


Oh and if I could do the IB i would would but its going in an xb so ... ya no walls


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

really, someone explain this dumb question thing to me... how is this dumb, I could use the help finding a sub. I havent worked with anyting with this much power so trying to poll others advice.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Your best bet would be an SPL based forum since that is what you are technically looking at. We would approach it like minibar has, but the SPL guys who build these subs may approach it with the enclosure in mind IMO.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> Anyone have any experice with the Atomic apxx on music or should that sub be left to spl only? This is what I found on them. The sensetivity looks like maybe they did it on 2.84v instead of 1w... what do you all think? and an xmax of 10mm... is this right?
> 
> APXX12D2 APXX15D1
> Revc	(ohms ) 3.60 1.80
> ...


that is certainly not an SPL sub from the numbers. the SPLo numbers they have listed are 1w/1m. really efficient sub, but with an xmax of 10mm, not gonna make SPL history.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> that is certainly not an SPL sub from the numbers. the SPLo numbers they have listed are 1w/1m. really efficient sub, but with an xmax of 10mm, not gonna make SPL history.


What makes it a bad spl sub, I mean if those really are 1w/1m ratings its has a really strong edge on the competition when it comes to how much power you have to throw at it. This is supposed to be Atomics highest powered spl sub.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

amazingly, once I modeled it, for SPL, not bad. the 15" would be **** for anything but SPL, for for pure SPL, stick it in 0.5cuft tuned to 60hz and hit it with 7000 watts (dont know what it is rated for) and it will put out 145-150 db with some cabin gain (about 129db in open air)

main problem is high FS and overly stiff suspension.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> amazingly, once I modeled it, for SPL, not bad. the 15" would be **** for anything but SPL, for for pure SPL, stick it in 0.5cuft tuned to 60hz and hit it with 7000 watts (dont know what it is rated for) and it will put out 145-150 db with some cabin gain (about 129db in open air)
> 
> main problem is high FS and overly stiff suspension.


Thats funny, the 15 is rated for 3-5k rms and up to 30k for short burst. So you dont think the 12 or 15 would sound reasonable on music. I listen to mostly rap. Why such a small box?


----------



## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

jcarver said:


> So looking around I see a lot of people that say the DC Level 5 12's work better in 2.0 to 2.5 net so I dont know that I could get 2 of them in there and still sound good on music. Also one big thing, I cant seem to find hardly anyone hitting good numbers with the dc level 5's. I'm seeing things like 140-142 for the 12, 143-146 for the 15, 148 to 151 for the 18. all of them where on 3k.... Are these things just not loud or somehting. I've even watched a few youtube videos and the cars done seem to be flexing much for having a sub that powerful




Flex is generally caused by untreated roofs....

I wonder how a pair of JBL GTi MKii would do off that amount of power.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> Thats funny, the 15 is rated for 3-5k rms and up to 30k for short burst. So you dont think the 12 or 15 would sound reasonable on music. I listen to mostly rap. Why such a small box?


no, I think it would sound terrible on music. anything less then 50hz and it falls off like a hammer in deep water. I tried a 1cuft box but it gets nasty bump at 60hz and cone excursion goes up and power handling goes down. this sub was designed for small port SPL. nothing else.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> no, I think it would sound terrible on music. anything less then 50hz and it falls off like a hammer in deep water. I tried a 1cuft box but it gets nasty bump at 60hz and cone excursion goes up and power handling goes down. this sub was designed for small port SPL. nothing else.


Well damn lol... on paper it looked good. Thank you for your help on that sub. What did you use to figure out that it would be a bad sub?



adrenalinejunkie said:


> Flex is generally caused by untreated roofs....
> 
> I wonder how a pair of JBL GTi MKii would do off that amount of power.


I havent worked with those but based on their rms of 700 for a 12 I'm gonna say they probably wouldnt like 5k


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> Well damn lol... on paper it looked good. Thank you for your help on that sub. What did you use to figure out that it would be a bad sub?


WinISD.



> I havent worked with those but based on their rms of 700 for a 12 I'm gonna say they probably wouldnt like 5k


no idea how acurate it is, but JBL rates those are 700RMS and 5000 peak. I have heard of people using 2k on them with no problems. that is a well regarded SQ sub. good xmax, but with the differential drive they use, nearly impossible to overdrive them. which is good for SQ and bad for SPL, lol.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

jcarver said:


> Well damn lol... on paper it looked good. Thank you for your help on that sub. What did you use to figure out that it would be a bad sub?
> 
> 
> 
> I havent worked with those but based on their rms of 700 for a 12 I'm gonna say they probably wouldnt like 5k




Yea, but they are pretty sensative, so may not need much power? Just thought I'd throw that out there...


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Yea, but they are pretty sensative, so may not need much power? Just thought I'd throw that out there...



That goes a long way, what kind of numbers have you seen them hit?



minbari said:


> WinISD.
> 
> no idea how acurate it is, but JBL rates those are 700RMS and 5000 peak. I have heard of people using 2k on them with no problems. that is a well regarded SQ sub. good xmax, but with the differential drive they use, nearly impossible to overdrive them. which is good for SQ and bad for SPL, lol.


the 5k is probably the thermal limit on the coils. If the rms is that low it probably reaches full excrsion on reletivly low power. Which can be good and bad I guess.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I dont think sensitivity would be problem for them. if he were going for pure SPL, I would say go for it. but they tank under 60hz and wouldnt be good at all for actual music. EBP is 227 for god sake!

that is at 5kw. you can see the bump I was talking about. only get worse the larger the box gets.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> the 5k is probably the thermal limit on the coils. If the rms is that low it probably reaches full excrsion on reletivly low power. Which can be good and bad I guess.


very well could be. I know they claim 22mm of xmax but, I think it was Binkinpunk Klippled em at around 18mm. still respectable, but that Diff Drive at work I am sure.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> I dont think sensitivity would be problem for them. if he were going for pure SPL, I would say go for it. but they tank under 60hz and wouldnt be good at all for actual music. EBP is 227 for god sake!
> 
> that is at 5kw. you can see the bump I was talking about. only get worse the larger the box gets.


Nice I love the program. I'm going to have to check that out. what is ebp?


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Make sure you get the "pro alpha" version. still free but has a few extra things the beta version doesnt.

EBP - The efficiency bandwidth product, a rough indicator measure. A common rule of thumb indicates that for EBP>100, a driver is perhaps best used in a vented enclosure, while EBP<50 indicates a sealed enclosure. For 50<EBP<100, either enclosure may be used effectively.

EBP = {Fs} / {Qes} 

Thiele/Small - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> I dont think sensitivity would be problem for them. if he were going for pure SPL, I would say go for it. but they tank under 60hz and wouldnt be good at all for actual music. EBP is 227 for god sake!
> 
> that is at 5kw. you can see the bump I was talking about. only get worse the larger the box gets.





minbari said:


> Make sure you get the "pro alpha" version. still free but has a few extra things the beta version doesnt.
> 
> EBP - The efficiency bandwidth product, a rough indicator measure. A common rule of thumb indicates that for EBP>100, a driver is perhaps best used in a vented enclosure, while EBP<50 indicates a sealed enclosure. For 50<EBP<100, either enclosure may be used effectively.
> 
> ...


Lot to learn I guess  thanks again.


----------



## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

I knew someone who would hit 144 with 2 12s and 200w on each.

Go for efficiency over power, it will cost you A LOT less.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

its_bacon12 said:


> I knew someone who would hit 144 with 2 12s and 200w on each.
> 
> Go for efficiency over power, it will cost you A LOT less.


Point me in the direction of 2 12's or a 15 that i can hit 150+ that will fit in my box and I will buy them tonight ... With an average box build btw... none of that crazy stuff those spl guys do to make a regular sub retarded.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

its_bacon12 said:


> I knew someone who would hit 144 with 2 12s and 200w on each.
> 
> Go for efficiency over power, it will cost you A LOT less.


I had (2) 10" blues in 5cuft TH on 200 watts. hit 132db.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> I had (2) 10" blues in 5cuft TH on 200 watts. hit 132db.


aside from a box the size of texas not not shabby.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> aside from a box the size of texas not not shabby.


lol ya. it filled the back of my RX7. but for a pair of 10s, it got loud and had amazing SQ. would play stuff down to 30hz pretty well.


----------



## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

jcarver said:


> Point me in the direction of 2 12's or a 15 that i can hit 150+ that will fit in my box and I will buy them tonight ... With an average box build btw... none of that crazy stuff those spl guys do to make a regular sub retarded.


I'm not going to do your homework, but just know that pro audio drivers will probably be able to hit those high decibel marks MUCH easier than traditional car audio drivers at 40-50hz. As long as you don't need them to hit 135 @ 20hz...

Also, finding out what your cabin gain frequency is will go a long way in impressing your friends.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

jcarver said:


> That goes a long way, what kind of numbers have you seen them hit?
> 
> 
> 
> the 5k is probably the thermal limit on the coils. If the rms is that low it probably reaches full excrsion on reletivly low power. Which can be good and bad I guess.



I haven't seen them meter. Like I said, just thought I'd throw it in there.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

its_bacon12 said:


> I'm not going to do your homework, but just know that pro audio drivers will probably be able to hit those high decibel marks MUCH easier than traditional car audio drivers at 40-50hz. As long as you don't need them to hit 135 @ 20hz...
> 
> Also, finding out what your cabin gain frequency is will go a long way in impressing your friends.


This is my homework. I looked up the specs for enclosure for every single high power spl sub that I know of and couldnt find what I call a good fit. Hoping someone knows of some others that would be. Do you have brand recommendations for "Pro audio" subs?


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

EV, peavy, mccauley, Mackie, cerwin vega


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Do you know how loud 150db really is?


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

chefhow said:


> Do you know how loud 150db really is?


Not yet lol... no I've heard them at competitions but not in my scion.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> EV, peavy, mccauley, Mackie, cerwin vega


So why would these types of speakers be better?


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

jcarver said:


> Not yet lol... no I've heard them at competitions but not in my scion.


But you dont appear to be talking about SPL you appear to be asking about SQ and Music at 150db, BIG difference.


----------



## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> Just because you don't believe, doesn't make it untrue. If you cared so much, Google the info.


The inability to disprove a statement does not automatically make it true.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

chefhow said:


> But you dont appear to be talking about SPL you appear to be asking about SQ and Music at 150db, BIG difference.


True I'm kind of looking for a mix. I dont plan to hit 150 on music but on tones would be nice. Also my muic is rap so sq isnt real important but I've seen subs that only do spl and sound terrible on music. I just dont want one of those.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

jcarver said:


> So why would these types of speakers be better?


might not be.  you asked for pro audio companies. those are very good.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

minbari said:


> might not be.  you asked for pro audio companies. those are very good.


they look like they would get my living room rockin lol


----------



## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

Im not sure where u got yout facts from but I threw 4k+ tones on 2 hdc3 12s and they took it easy.. What your not understanding is watts is pretty much meaning less and most ppl here will tell u that 3db gains are double the watts.. I mean really I run 4k and to gain some I need 10k? No thanks be smarter..

When you port a box correctly to a sub and car your speaker will move literally half as much. Allowing for higher power. The cheapest thing for what u want is gonna be a hdc4 and I don't even like them much but dollar for rms u won't touch it.. 

My next suggestion would be to go to caraudioforums.com talk to spl audio he makes custom subs and will make u a thick ass spider that wont budge. I have a 15 he made on a sundown 3k it laughs at it and I had a 300 amp alt and batts. But motors and build what u want.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Give a look at the TC Sounds AXIS 12's. Should handle the power and come real close to your 150 if not a bit above on short bursts of that amount of power. Plus with the 2 motors power compression will be lessened than if you just had one motor. more cone area than a single 15 as well. Going to be somewhat pricey, but with your power requirements and the other subs you are looking at, they should be competitive.

Wish Chad would get involved. His perspective on BIG power can't be beat. These 50kw systems and many kilowatts on a speaker is laughable. Contact the manny's and ask them if the warranty still applies if you put that amount of power continuously and to back it up in writing.

As for the JL sub with the 3800 watt amp. That is max power. That sub is not designed to sustain anywhere close to that power except for milliseconds.

Ever look at how thin voice coil wire is??? Its like 22-28 gauge. Look up the amp rating for that wire. 


As for high efficiency subs. Generally, the less efficient at 1k the more efficient under 80 hertz. Plus the smaller the box requirement.

I will gladly take my 87db/octave 15 over a 97db/octave sub in almost every case. I will get as loud or louder in the bass frequencies in a smaller box on probably the same power. If space was not a concern, then obviously all bets are off.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Also the enclosure is going to dictate the end overall sound with respect to what the woofer is capable of. 

pwkdesigns.com

he will make the most of what you are wanting, And you are wanting audible loudness. It will do well numberwise on a TL but will sound louder than a pure SPL set up.
His plans are 50 bucks. He takes a while but the end result will be worth it.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Im not sure where u got yout facts from but I threw 4k+ tones on 2 hdc3 12s and they took it easy.. What your not understanding is watts is pretty much meaning less and most ppl here will tell u that 3db gains are double the watts.. I mean really I run 4k and to gain some I need 10k? No thanks be smarter..
> 
> When you port a box correctly to a sub and car your speaker will move literally half as much. Allowing for higher power. The cheapest thing for what u want is gonna be a hdc4 and I don't even like them much but dollar for rms u won't touch it..
> 
> My next suggestion would be to go to caraudioforums.com talk to spl audio he makes custom subs and will make u a thick ass spider that wont budge. I have a 15 he made on a sundown 3k it laughs at it and I had a 300 amp alt and batts. But motors and build what u want.


I'd have to go back to read my post but I only have room for 1 hdc3, if i had room for 2 this would be easy.

I love the hdc4 but 1 wont take the power 2 wont fit. A thicker spider may reduce excursion but will kill efficiency. Probably wont help me get any louder at all.


----------



## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

If I can get 2 12 in my small trunk I don't see how u can't in yours.. If u can't do 2 12 and plan to do 4k on only 1 sub you'll be terribly disappointed.. Motor force is going to account for way more.. 

If your think any spl sub is using less than 2 spiders your crazy. Effiency is out the window at 4k your thermal at thar point.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> Give a look at the TC Sounds AXIS 12's. Should handle the power and come real close to your 150 if not a bit above on short bursts of that amount of power. Plus with the 2 motors power compression will be lessened than if you just had one motor. more cone area than a single 15 as well. Going to be somewhat pricey, but with your power requirements and the other subs you are looking at, they should be competitive.
> 
> Wish Chad would get involved. His perspective on BIG power can't be beat. These 50kw systems and many kilowatts on a speaker is laughable. Contact the manny's and ask them if the warranty still applies if you put that amount of power continuously and to back it up in writing.
> 
> ...


Are they really that much better that on 2k music, which is what i run now, they would be that much louder? And the hdc4 should take the 5k on burps but i want it to take that daily. so sorry i dont know that those would work for me... at least not just one of them. there isnt enclosure recomendations for them online so I dont know maybe 2 of them would fit in 5 cu ft (gross). What do you think. And btw this is the first time I ever heard someone make that statement about sensetivity...


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

Pimpnyou204 said:


> If I can get 2 12 in my small trunk I don't see how u can't in yours.. If u can't do 2 12 and plan to do 4k on only 1 sub you'll be terribly disappointed.. Motor force is going to account for way more..
> 
> If your think any spl sub is using less than 2 spiders your crazy. Effiency is out the window at 4k your thermal at thar point.


Then maybe there are some subs that can do 2500 on music that will wit in my small space. i have 5 cu ft gross if i rear fire them. if i fire them up i can get an extra 1.5 cu ft... any thoughts....


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> Also the enclosure is going to dictate the end overall sound with respect to what the woofer is capable of.
> 
> pwkdesigns.com
> 
> ...


Thanks I'll reach out to him. Audible loudness is the key truthfully.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

here is a pic of my aq in my scion. You can see i have a few inches of room left to the back if i fire up.. that box nets about 3.3.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

The Axis (TC3000) was originally marketed as a 3-4 kw speaker. 30mm 1 way Xmax said to be used in a small sealed enclosure. 4 voice coilsyielded either a ~4 ohm, ~1 ohm, ~0.25 ohm load depending on how you wired to a single mono amp. 

My 15" has been used in a multitude of enclosure designs. I run it on a single Sundown SAZ1500 amp. I have an aquaintance who runs a Sundown SAZ3000 to the same sub. no problems. Cone itself (aluminum) acts as part of the cooling mechanism for the coils.

So I figure 2 of the 12's with the same motor (3HP) should be fine on 5kw.

And lets face it, with box rise and thermal rise, plus that you are playing music, the full 5kw is unlikely. prolly more like 3500-4000 peak.

Just my $0.02 on the subs I recommended.


As for the efficiency thing. Nothing earth shattering. Most sensitivity readings unless specified are given at 1000 hertz. Which obviously has zero bearing on low end sensitivity. Plus HOR is that figure obtained. More and more it's at 2,83 volts. Which for a 4 ohm speaker is 2 watts. So subtract 3db from that figure. 

Then read about hoffman's iron law. 

Then research what the home theater crowd uses for low bass. It's generally not pro audio drivers. Pro audio high efficiency drivers work amazingly in big ported or horn loaded designs. Key ingredient being big. Those high efficient high FS, low Xmax speakers are great for big enclosures.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Also should add that they work well in smaller ported enclosures. Best that I have is a single reflex bandpass but that gets out of control size-wise quick.

It's more of getting adequate port area for two subs that can displace that much air on that amount of power.


----------



## Underground Audio (May 29, 2012)

TrickyRicky said:


> Mister did you see who produced/directed the video......MTX.. so ofcourse their not going to state nor claim that they blew up a few of their own subs while testing. But they're quick to mention the Kicker and JL sub blowing up. Sorry but I dont fall for that type of crap.
> 
> Gotta love advertisment. Give that sub to Jimmy96 and I bet he can blow it up in a few seconds, lol:laugh:.


Yes I did, and I take everything with a grain of salt. That being said, I have directly plugged a problematic 9512 into a 110v outlet to blow it for warranty and it took around 18 minutes to smoke up. Admittedly I have never done this with anything other than a RF Power 15 years ago which took 3 seconds or so.


----------



## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

jcarver said:


> here is a pic of my aq in my scion. You can see i have a few inches of room left to the back if i fire up.. that box nets about 3.3.


I would consider what I was going to do in my friends versa.. Up fire usually sounds loudest in hatches with seats up. Then I would try and seal off the box as best I could all around.. Kind of a wall but up firing and obviously it won't be completely sealed but it would help with cancellation going all around the box and hopefully keep it up and forward.

If u can't keep it ported try sealed with 2 15 I u can fit a box. The cone area and motor force may help out. Model it in winisd and see what the output gain would be. Have u played with aeros? They save space but IMO are a pain bcuz everytime I do them it also seems to need 2 90 degrees (I tune way low.)


----------



## stochastic (Jan 24, 2012)

jcarver you might want to ask your questions to the SPL forum guys at realmofexcursion.com They'll point you in the right direction very fast with no BS.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

Pimpnyou204 said:


> I would consider what I was going to do in my friends versa.. Up fire usually sounds loudest in hatches with seats up. Then I would try and seal off the box as best I could all around.. Kind of a wall but up firing and obviously it won't be completely sealed but it would help with cancellation going all around the box and hopefully keep it up and forward.
> 
> If u can't keep it ported try sealed with 2 15 I u can fit a box. The cone area and motor force may help out. Model it in winisd and see what the output gain would be. Have u played with aeros? They save space but IMO are a pain bcuz everytime I do them it also seems to need 2 90 degrees (I tune way low.)


Ya me too. if i port i will go 30 - 32. Sealed sounds good but if I'm not mistake wont 2 sealed be the same as 1 ported. 3db gain from doubling the cone area or 3 db gain from porting?


----------



## Sleeves (Oct 22, 2010)

07azhhr said:


> BTW while I was searching I found that you can find JL w7 on Alibaba and other asian trading websites. Perhaps we can rebrand them as DIYMA subs lol.


Really? That's interesting, because as far as I know the W7s (and W6s for that matter) are American made. Is Alibaba known for selling copies? If so, were you serious as citing them as a source?


----------



## stochastic (Jan 24, 2012)

jcarver said:


> <snip>Sealed sounds good but if I'm not mistake wont 2 sealed be the same as 1 ported.<snip>


no.
There are many reasons why not.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

stochastic said:


> no.
> There are many reasons why not.


If not what difference should I expect of them. Which would be louder?

The TC axis looks nice but they worry me. When i go to their site and look at all the subs on one page it says 2k rms, when I click on the sub it states 1k rms. I've never worked with 4 voice coils before, with what they offer would I be able to get 1ohm out of a pair of them? 

How would these compare to a set of the DC Level 5's?

How would these compare with the PSI Platform 3's.

Does anyone think 3 10's ported would be better than 2 12's?

How would these types of subs do in a common space box or would I be better off building individual chambers? 

Thanks all btw this is very helpful. One thing I have found at least is a single 15 on 5k inst probably the best because as many of you stated efficiency goes way down on a sub like that and its just wasted power.


----------



## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

It all depends on the design of the enclosure and the vehicle, not to mention a lot of things have to do with which one is louder, better & more efficient.

Just saying and comparing three 10's ported to two 12's ported makes no sense what-so-ever.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

TrickyRicky said:


> It all depends on the design of the enclosure and the vehicle, not to mention a lot of things have to do with which one is louder, better & more efficient.
> 
> Just saying and comparing three 10's ported to two 12's ported makes no sense what-so-ever.


Sorry just trying to go off of space limitations here. I see that based on recommended enlosure sizes 3 10's need about the same as 2 12's. So based on that I have looked at a few models. Such as (3) psi platform-2 10's vs (2) psi platform-3 12's. 12's handle a touch more power but 10's have cone area advantage. Or looking at the DC subs. (3) XL's 10" vs (2) DC level 5 12's. Each look like they would be nice. One thing that throws me off is the DC's has such small recommendations for enclosures size... Are these accurate. They are as follows 10"=1.0 12"=1.5.... with those kinds of numbers I could put four 10's level 4 in that space. but It just seems so small for so much power.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

jcarver said:


> If not what difference should I expect of them. Which would be louder?
> 
> The TC axis looks nice but they worry me. When i go to their site and look at all the subs on one page it says 2k rms, when I click on the sub it states 1k rms. I've never worked with 4 voice coils before, with what they offer would I be able to get 1ohm out of a pair of them?
> 
> ...


Hopefully this answers some of your questions


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> Hopefully this answers some of your questions


Ya thank you lots of great advice. I'm going to talk to PSI to see what they think would work best, 3 beefed up 10's or 2 of their 12's. they seem to be pretty good subs overall. I think I'm going rule out DC audio. 1. There pretty expensive per sub for what overall looks to be the same as PSI's stuff. And I think there so hung up on power handling that they make them less efficient. I think this because I've seen a few people state you really need 2k rms to even get them moving... Unless someone has experience otherwise . I'm still considering the NS v.2. I watched a review of level 5 compared to ns v.2 and the NS looks like a really good sub. But again price is up there compared to PSI.

On the other hand I still have brand I'm trying to find information on but cant seem to find much. Its the TC Sounds. As someone pointed out above these subs have pretty good handeling and work well in a small box. So my thought is 2 of the axis 15's in a small box (if they really work well) on 2k each may be louder than 2 psi 12"s in the same box on 2500... that is if they work well in the small box. Given these are SQ subs but hey power and cone area normally = loud no matter what sub lol. The other is the LMS Ultra 18... 3k rms on music and an 18. Someone on another forum said you could put in in as small as 2.4 cubs!!!!. Another said 4 cubs.. Super small boxes for an 18. I tried modeling it in winisd but i couldnt figure it out. maybe someone could help me figure out how these subs would do in that size box


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

If you are listening to bass heavy content, then that LMS Ultra is going to be fidiculous. Problem is you are looking at a grand or better. 

2 15's (Axis or the LMS) are probably going to need a bit bigger enclosure. Remember the "small box" is referencing sealed.

My 15 works well in 3 cubic feet ported. But honestly that is about normal for small to mid ported boxes that are not super peaky. 

When you are modeling a ported box, you have to also account for port volume. This can take up as much room as the speaker volume requirements. 

Also look at port velocities. You need to find the compromise between port velocity under power and space requirements. It can be a real pain in the ass. It's why I usually recommend PWK or Ram. Really good designs. 

PWK custom tailors what you want to what you have in space available, car and speaker. Ram does even nicer looking plans but are more cookie cutter tuning/design. I usually go with PWK but the Ram plans are nice to especially with your goals.

The Sundown subs are nice. I have heard good things about the PSI. I have heard the DC subs in a friend of my son's car. 10". loud

Again, not to worried about the sensitivity of the subs with your available space.

The difference between the same subs on 2500 and 5000 watts is ~3db. What is it going to take upgrade-wise to the electrical of your car. It may be cheaper if the space is available to run 3 12 inch speakers. Almost the same cone area as 2 15" subs.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> If you are listening to bass heavy content, then that LMS Ultra is going to be fidiculous. Problem is you are looking at a grand or better.


Thats what I'm going for. $1k Isn't so bad. Most of the subs in the 2krms+ range are $5-600 anyway so 2 of them is going to cost more. Does anyone have any idea how loud you can get off of one of these LMS 18's. Like has anyone done it and had it metered. Given my car will be different, I just like to get ball park figures on what its capable of doing. Anyone have enclosure recommendations for this sub. I tried to model it but couldn't figure out the software lol. It would need to probably work in 4 cubs ported.


----------



## will3 (Aug 13, 2009)

The Atomic APX/APXX is probably the best bet out of all of the drivers you have come up with in this thread, the T/S parameters posted are inaccurate if you have the daily version of these drivers built, the T/S posted seems more like the SPL version as far as I can tell , if you have them built by Atomic or an Atomic dealer orders them for you, you can have them built to fit your application, the APX/APXX platform holds and or has held numerous SPL world records since the time they were launched by SJA, by Atomic and under other name brands such as American Bass,RD audio,Bostwick, and others, the platform has done very well in the bass race style comps as well, I have used these drivers in both ground pounders and SPL apps and they worked great either way, another option is if you can find a good deal on these motors and have PSI build what you want.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

will3 said:


> The Atomic APX/APXX is probably the best bet out of all of the drivers you have come up with in this thread, the T/S parameters posted are inaccurate if you have the daily version of these drivers built, the T/S posted seems more like the SPL version as far as I can tell , if you have them built by Atomic or an Atomic dealer orders them for you, you can have them built to fit your application, the APX/APXX platform holds and or has held numerous SPL world records since the time they were launched by SJA, by Atomic and under other name brands such as American Bass,RD audio,Bostwick, and others, the platform has done very well in the bass race style comps as well, I have used these drivers in both ground pounders and SPL apps and they worked great either way, another option is if you can find a good deal on these motors and have PSI build what you want.


Good idea on the blown sub... Also on the atomic. I'm open to using them but I cant seem to find the specs for the music/daily build. I emailed them several times asking but they never responded... dont know how i can build a box for something without the parameters. unless I just guess


----------



## will3 (Aug 13, 2009)

Alot of manufactures don't like giving out T/S parameters, particularly on SPL type subwoofers because most of the modeling software programs will give you the wrong enclosure information, DD and IA both don't or won't post T/S parameters for example, try contacting randy for sales and george for enclosure information @ atomic


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I wouldnt buy any woofer that they wont provide real T/S stats for. "build it like this because we say so" is not good enough.

what if car manufacturers didnt give MPG stats. " its very efficient, trust us"


----------



## will3 (Aug 13, 2009)

I would agree , however a build house like SJA could post a dozen different T/S parameters for the APX/APXX platform as well as the E.L.E platform, it's kind of pointless to post random T/S info on specfic SPL drivers, unless it's from a marketing standpoint, Atomic just does things a little different they are not an internet brand, they go through dealers that are suppose to be able to help with enclosure info , T/S parameters, etc.
If you do not have a dealer , you contact them direct same as DD and several others,


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I would have no problem with it if they provided them on request. but not posting them and refusing to provide them is silly.

I know DD is like that alot. took about 4 emails with thier customer service to get them to give me stats for one woofer. they are a pain in the butt


----------



## will3 (Aug 13, 2009)

Doesn't suprise me about DD, every time I ever dealt with them I thought they had very poor people skills ( as a nice way to put it ).
and I agree if it is a production model thats only one way I would prefer the T/S info


----------



## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm not sure if you've answered this yet but have u got an alt to run this? Or a few batts? And what amps are you planning on running? Going thru this before I can almost guarantee u won't see much power with out all of this in top notch.

Something not mentioned yet fi might work too IMO it's better than AQ and I beleive same price and higher quality and sensitivity. The Q specifically I think would would work well it's pretty sq oriented and takes a beating. Plus all their subs u can also modify.

As far as sealed vs ported I thinking modeling in winisd will help. But accurately using speakers in their own strengths I think both become mute and cone area motor and sensitivity pull ahead but it's 100% trial and error and porting to your cars freq. if I did ported ever again for spl id do a horn or 4th order. They can be tuned to be spl monsters but in exchange for this they are very Peaky but they can as well sound very good if built to be flat.


----------



## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

Sleeves said:


> Really? That's interesting, because as far as I know the W7s (and W6s for that matter) are American made. Is Alibaba known for selling copies? If so, were you serious as citing them as a source?


 
JL AUDIO 13W7-D1.5 Car subwoofer driver products, buy JL AUDIO 13W7-D1.5 Car subwoofer driver products from alibaba.com


----------



## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

OMG the amount of misinformation in this thread is incredible. I guess that's what happens when you discuss a more SPL oriented set up on an SQ forum 

Assuming you have a 4kw rated amp, you will NOT get 4kw of power with box rise, be happy to get 2kw out of that amp. 

And if you somehow magically did get 4kw no 3" VC is going to take that thermally for very long. Unless you split the power between 2 subs. 

I run an AQ3500 @ .5ohm daily on an HDC4 18, does a 148+ on music sealed up, but that's a trunk set up. Your SUV should be louder. 

DC lvl5 is a solid sub and will play down low no problem as I've built several set ups with them for cars doing 150+ on the meter and playing stuff down to 30Hz with authority. 

I've had a few team mates switch from DC and AQ to PSI level3's and they lost a db or 2 on the meter. 

Soundown subs normally like smaller enclosures, so 2 12" nightshades could also work for what you want. 

Or go above window line and do an 18" HDC4 and you'll hit that 150 and have solid daily SQ also. Pretty much exactly what you seem to be looking for.


----------



## jcarver (May 28, 2012)

Mlstrass said:


> OMG the amount of misinformation in this thread is incredible. I guess that's what happens when you discuss a more SPL oriented set up on an SQ forum
> 
> Assuming you have a 4kw rated amp, you will NOT get 4kw of power with box rise, be happy to get 2kw out of that amp.
> 
> ...


Thanks, your right this is a lot of information and all good. I hope someone finds it as valuable as I do. If anyone is curious my my decision was to do One of these. First I'm going to try to get the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18''. This sub works well in about 4.5 net ported, has amazing spl and can drop as low as something like 8hz safely. Its rms is only 2k-3k but on an 18 that should be pretty loud and its a very high SQ sub to boot. If that doesnt pan out the way I want I'm going to do either 2 ns v.2 12's or two psi platform 3 12's or 3 platform 2 10's. Each has their own advantage but should be similar outputon the last 3 so its probably going to end up being a flip a coin type of situation. But first the LMS Ultra... Lets see what 145+db sounds like at 25-30hz lol :lurk:


----------



## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

U should like the tc I have a 3000 3hp I got reconed to be more sq and I like it. It's just heavy so requires a little more power to get it moving and it's still sensitive.

Pics are here and if u can not get it type in user pimpnyou204 then go to tc sounds album

tc sounds 3hp 3000 pictures by pimpnyou204 - Photobucket


----------

