# Scanspeak Illuminator18wu/4741t00 Klippel Test Data



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Driver Info:*
ScanSpeak Illuminator 18WU/4741T 7" Woofer, 4 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store

*Impedance & T/S Specs:*











Re = 3.2401 ohms
Fs = 40.2090 Hz
Zmax = 48.9959 ohms
Qes = 0.5031
Qms = 7.1050
Qts = 0.4699
Le = 0.2073 mH (at 1 kHz)
Diam = 137.1600 mm ( 5.4000 in )
Sd =14775.5910 mm^2( 22.9022 in^2)
Vas = 29.5769 L ( 1.0445 ft^3)
BL = 5.1700 N/A
Mms = 16.4284 g
Cms = 953.6699 uM/N
Kms = 1048.5808 N/M
Rms = 0.5842 R mechanical
Efficiency = 0.3591 %
Sensitivity= 87.5700 dB @1W/1m
Sensitivity= 91.4953 dB @2.83Vrms/1m

*Klippel Calculated Displacement Limits:*

X Bl @ Bl min=82% 11.6 mm = Displacement limit due to force factor variation
X C @ *C min=75% 9.1 mm* = Displacement limit due to compliance variation
X L @ Z max=10 % >12.6 mm = Displacement limit due to inductance variation
X d @ d2=10% 37.1 mm = Displacement limit due to IM distortion (Doppler)

*Sample Klippel Data:*





































*Driver Picture:*











This driver is flat out unreal. The symmetry is almost perfect for a stroke of it's size, and the most limiting xmax is 9.2mm. Bl is 11.9mm. 
The Cms curve is nearly perfectly symmetrical. Bl has a small shift 

I had to push this driver _hard_ to get Bl to resolve. Most drivers will have one parameter resolve earlier than the other, and you have to push the other parameter a bit harder in the 'protection' parameter to get it to resolve. The low end of the latter is typically in the 30-40% range. Frankly, I don't like pushing a driver below 30% anyway because it really starts to get nasty; as in, I'm waiting for the cone to jump off the surround and fly through my room. Although Cms resolved around 50%, I had to push this driver down to 25% Cms (which is entering territory I typically feel unsafe doing because you are seriously pressing the stroke) to get Bl to resolve and give you guys a useful number for it. What blew my mind is that while this driver was under test at this level, it handled it just fine. I've honestly not had a driver yet that could get either of its parameters down this low and not sound like it was going to come apart. There is zero motor noise and some very slight popping of the coil, which you can't hear unless you're standing right in front of the driver at full output. I recorded this driver while being tested and made sure to video the settings on screen. Note that you'll see the Cms protection parameter hovering at 25% and you hear NOTHING from the driver while doing this.

CLICK TO WATCH VIDEO!




Not only does it fare EXTREMELY well mechanically, but the sensitivity of this driver is excellent for a non-pro-audio driver: 87.5dB @ 1w/1m!! 


So, yea... to say I'm impressed by this driver is a terrible understatement. I've yet to test a driver that does this well. But, it certainly is not cheap. IMO it's worth every single penny, but to some the value may not be there. I just don't see how it couldn't be. 



- Erin


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Edit.* 
Adding new data and had to move this post up to the one above so I could get space to add the new data in here. Too bad I can't just insert posts in the middle of conversation.


See these posts in this thread for full Data Suite:

FR/HD at 2.83v/1m & 102dB High Output:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1576608-post124.html
&
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1576610-post125.html

IMD:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1576611-post126.html


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Erin, 

I have been reading up on the Klippel data links you have provided and when I first saw the data you just posted, I thought I was misunderstanding so I was afraid to post. This driver tested amazingly! You better keep these things forever!

BTW, thanks for the great reading links you put out there. Sooner or later I should be able to get through and absorb it all. It does really help!!!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Erin,
> 
> I have been reading up on the Klippel data links you have provided and when I first saw the data you just posted, I thought I was misunderstanding so I was afraid to post. This driver tested amazingly! You better keep these things forever!
> 
> BTW, thanks for the great reading links you put out there. Sooner or later I should be able to get through and absorb it all. It does really help!!!


Thanks for the kind words.


Yea, these are absolutely not leaving the car now. No fuggin' way.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Sometimes the best does cost the most.


----------



## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

I almost pulled the trigger on these earlier this year! Wouldn't fit in my shallow ass doors though :mean:

Nice to see that they were as nice as I thought they would be. Thanks for taking the time to do these tests... we all appreciate it very much.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Humble Homemade Hifi

Your next home speaker.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Wow, completely decimated the competition. I think it is unreal how much better speaker technology has gotten in the last few years. This midbass sets the curve. 

Not sure if Scan Speak should have even given it more suspension stroke. At that point it's so freaking linear it jumps the gap and you wouldn't even know it.


----------



## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

thehatedguy said:


> Humble Homemade Hifi
> 
> Your next home speaker.


Woah! I think I just peed a little. That would be a suweeeet project... Bye Bye tax return, lol.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

As a matter of fact you did push the driver past it's limits. From Scan Speak's white sheet: Max mech. excursion ± 16 mm.

You drove it to 16.2. I guess you do whip the speakers if they are yours. Hardcore, me likes. :rockon:

BTW, more than half a decade ago there was actually a better motor out there: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/665-resonant-engineering-xxx-7-a.html

RE just never bothered to make a good suspension. That's what plagued their larger drivers as well.


----------



## Lars Ulriched (Oct 31, 2009)

interesting...but too expensive...cant afford one...


----------



## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow. I knew they would do well, but here I am, staring at the results in awe. And taking out mortgages to order some! (Well, not really, but I wish I could)


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

You are absolutely killing me! I have just gotten all of the drivers to put in an HE system and then the Illums deliver the goods. To tempt me further, I just got the current Low Efficiency system to work well. Before I take the HE plunge I need to get these into my car and see how I like them...


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Alright. WHO CAN GET US A GROUP BUY ON THESE?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Alright. WHO CAN GET US A GROUP BUY ON THESE?


$250 each?

Neo is EXPENSIVE!


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm in for a pair.


----------



## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> $250 each?
> 
> Neo is EXPENSIVE!


Wait... Are you selling a couple or is there some sort of actual group buy?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just trying to see what people would pay. Maybe I can try to work out a group buy. 

$300 each? $250? What's the max? Be realistic.


----------



## jooonnn (Jul 26, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Just trying to see what people would pay. Maybe I can try to work out a group buy.
> 
> $300 each? $250? What's the max? Be realistic.


I'd probably go in for a group buy for $500 a pair


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I think a tweet should be added to the GB, if there is one.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I doubt they would be happening for $500 a pair, not based on typical margins I have seen in speakers.


----------



## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Yeah. I think $250/ea is very unlikely, but I might be able to find the money for a pair somewhere if you can pull it off.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Not to de-rail this topic but has anyone seen klippel results for the AE TD6Hs? I keep hearing rumors about issues at 2khz but that is all. Nothing about the Xmax...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Not to de-rail this topic but has anyone seen klippel results for the AE TD6Hs? I keep hearing rumors about issues at 2khz but that is all. Nothing about the Xmax...


Bring it with you to work and we can find out.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Nope, haven't seen KDA results only FR results that show a dip in the FR...it's in the AE forum somewhere.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

It is here now. You got a screwdriver  

Seriously, I can take it out at any time because my next step is kickpanel reconstruction. The new kicks will be built to handle a variety of speaker sizes so an exact fit to the AEs isn't necessary. I would love to see if this thing lives up to the 10mm billing (my guess is that it doesn't). With the group buy going on right now I would be willing to bet quite a few forum members would like to see the numbers.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> It is here now. You got a screwdriver
> 
> Seriously, I can take it out at any time because my next step is kickpanel reconstruction. The new kicks will be built to handle a variety of speaker sizes so an exact fit to the AEs isn't necessary. I would love to see if this thing lives up to the 10mm billing (my guess is that it doesn't). With the group buy going on right now I would be willing to bet quite a few forum members would like to see the numbers.


Meet up thursday? 

Call me up.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

SSSnake said:


> It is here now. You got a screwdriver
> 
> Seriously, I can take it out at any time because my next step is kickpanel reconstruction. The new kicks will be built to handle a variety of speaker sizes so an exact fit to the AEs isn't necessary. I would love to see if this thing lives up to the 10mm billing (my guess is that it doesn't). With the group buy going on right now I would be willing to bet quite a few forum members would like to see the numbers.


That would be great. 

Jason are we betting again on the results? I need to win this time.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I would love to have a pair of these, but they are so deep!


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I hope you do cause with the GB prices, it's hard not to get a few of them.



cvjoint said:


> That would be great.
> 
> Jason are we betting again on the results? I need to win this time.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Should have TD6H data up sometime this weekend. 

Thanks, Charles. 

Also, I'll be testing a pair of the scan 12mu this weekend as well.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Should have TD6H data up sometime this weekend. 

Thanks, Charles. 

Also, I'll be testing a pair of the scan 12mu this weekend as well.

Edit: 12mu's will be on their way tomorrow. I had to remove my kidney and sell it on e-bay to get them, though. I hope I don't bleed out before I get a chance to test it. :/


----------



## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

michaelsil1 said:


> I would love to have a pair of these, but they are so deep!


Thats what she said !!!!!!
hahahahahahaha .......... You had to be there


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I hope you do cause with the GB prices, it's hard not to get a few of them.


My guess for the AE is 7.5mm for .82 BL and 3.5mm for .75 CMS. The inductance is probably an ironing board near 0.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was thinking a mm higher on both...but we are in the same ballpark.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I was thinking a mm higher on both...but we are in the same ballpark.


HA! You're taking the over this time.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Wishful thinking especially if the GB hits the 50 driver mark/price break.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Wishful thinking especially if the GB hits the 50 driver mark/price break.


After buying the Vifa 12" neo for $113 shipped I'm really not liking the Scan pricing. Then I have to take into account the cost of raping my S2000 doors to pull the suckers through.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was talking about the TD-6H pricing. They are already at or past the 30 driver mark and if the GB hits 50 drivers I believe there is a further price break. Right now with the current price break the TD6s are about $132 ea.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

OOOooo, I see. Well, I'm an equal opportunity employer. I'll buy any driver that fits and tests the best. If the AE rocks my Exodus off the platform on the Klippel I'll join in on the fun.


----------



## denetnz (Jul 31, 2009)

I could be keen on that group buy, but it would have to be soon - I was about to pull the trigger on W18NX.


----------



## czechm8 (Oct 15, 2008)

Who needs a group buy! Solen has 6 in stock and on sale for $263.81 Canadian.............which is $250.72 US each!

I've purchased lots of Solen X-over components and also bought the Scanspeak Revelators I'm using in my ride now, so I trust them. They've been good to deal with.
I honestly wanted to go with the Illuminators, but they simply would not fit my doors so I settled for the Revelators and couldn't be happier.

Now go get a pair..............

Solen Electronique Inc.


----------



## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

czechm8 said:


> Who needs a group buy! Solen has 6 in stock and on sale for $263.81 Canadian.............which is $250.72 US each!
> 
> I've purchased lots of Solen X-over components and also bought the Scanspeak Revelators I'm using in my ride now, so I trust them. They've been good to deal with.
> I honestly wanted to go with the Illuminators, but they simply would not fit my doors so I settled for the Revelators and couldn't be happier.
> ...


Great deal


----------



## drpepper (Jun 17, 2011)

how are the illuminators IB? like in a door. just wondering because it suggests enclosures


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Alright, I've got to get in on the derby...



> My guess for the AE is 7.5mm for .82 BL and 3.5mm for .75 CMS. The inductance is probably an ironing board near 0.





> I was thinking a mm higher on both...but we are in the same ballpark.


My guestimate is 8mm on Bl and 5.0 on the CMS. Lots of spider on this thing but the surround is really small (it does seem to offer good throw and is supposed to be made out of some kind of new material - can't remember what). I'm with CV on the inductance. It better be ruler flat or I will be disappointed.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

So we all are pretty much in the same ballpark on the driver.

These are one of two drivers that I would replace my SDX7s for...the other are the underhung Tang Bands that are equally as large...lol.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Alright, I've got to get in on the derby...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On what scale though? Ive seen some curved Le graphs that have a scale of 0.000 and only has breadth of 0.010. The scale makes it look worse. 

I know you know. Just saying. 

Been too long since I've seen the td6 to venture a guess. 

You guys should put up drivers as bets. Lol.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Look at it this way, if my midbass had the inductance properties of an AE IB12 sub I would be really happy. It can only get better with a smaller coil. This AE has down pat. 

So nobody is interested in the TB 6.5 neo sub? That's more interesting to me than the underhung midbass. They also have a new ferrite 6.5" driver with claimed 11.5 xmax. It's dirt cheap. 

I have plenty of blown Seas driver to put up for these bets. Pickup only.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, the Exodus is a third I would swap out for.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Tang Band is iffy to me. They have some jems and a lot of junk IMO. Finding the jems is the key. And I've used subwoofers as midbasses before and didn't care for it too much.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Tang Band is iffy to me. They have some jems and a lot of junk IMO. Finding the jems is the key. And I've used subwoofers as midbasses before and didn't care for it too much.


Just labels for the most part. The Scan here is great at subwoofer, woofer and midrange duty. The SLS is great at subwoofer and woofer duty but sucks at midrange. I suppose there could be some subwoofers out there that suck at everything but the lowest two octaves, I guess what I'm saying is that the categories are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## vrdublu (Apr 13, 2009)

If anyone is interested Solen.ca has the 4" version on sale right now for $230 a pop. I have been contemplating getting a pair for some time now. Solen is great to deal with also, might want to contact them about the group buy people have been interested in for these drivers. Here's a link to the driver if anyone is interested Solen Electronique Inc.


----------



## denetnz (Jul 31, 2009)

drpepper said:


> how are the illuminators IB? like in a door. just wondering because it suggests enclosures


Can anyone shed some light on this?


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

Anyone know the mounting depth of those illuminators?


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> I've used subwoofers as midbasses before and didn't care for it too much


I've used them as midbass (ED) and hated them and used them as midbass (SLS) and liked them. 

I know, don't preach top me about ED. With all of the polarized feelings about ED I just had to try them for myself and make up my own mind. I will say for an eight inch sub the thing moved a ton of air.


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

Anyone?? Might have sounded like a stupid but I can see on the specs where it says 97,3 but I'm honestly not sure which unit of measure that is..If its mm that converts into about 3.7 inches, and in cm its like 37 inches or something like that. Obviously not cm, but 3.7 inches or so looks way too shallow for that driver. I was expecting something more like 5-6 inches or something....


----------



## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

98mm mounting depth = 3.86"


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

Well that's good to know...guess it is in mm after all and the mounting depth wouldn't be a problem for me. I've got the revelators right now but am wanting to take them out of my car and put them in my truck. If a group buy does turn up I'd be interested...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

GB isn't happening. They said maybe 10% but that's the best they could do.


----------



## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

They as in who? Madisound?


----------



## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

BTW the sale is for the 4 OHM drivers. The 8 OHM are the standard price...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> They as in who? Madisound?


Yes.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

And










Coming soon.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Coming soon.


What's that?


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

michaelsil1 said:


> What's that?


AE  

Kelvin


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

First pic resembles the older Focals if that's the one I'm thinking of....or actually the old ID's...both look interesting, any specs on them yet or expected sound characteristics?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

First picture is the Acoustic Elegance TD-6H.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yep. First is the AE. Second is the SB Acoustics shallow mount 10" sub.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Great news! Are the results up now? How about now? Are they up?


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Oooh, oooh, ooh, I want to update my guesses to 7.0mm Bl and 5.6mm on CMS 

BTW, who would send a dusty ass woofer in for testing? The dirtbag should have at least cleaned it up first.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

that's uncanny!....


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

Ok, to ask the obvious, if the illuminators tested out so uncommonly well, why are we even looking at other drivers now? I can only imagine sound difference and hopefully they would test out as well, which I would be interested in. My only reservation about the illuminators is the fear that they would sound basically the same as revelators but easier to tune, etc...After owning the revelators I must say I'm missing a good bit of detail from them which I assume is the overall sound of scans. It's actually quite noticeable and I'm pretty sure I've done all that can be done to get the best sound out of them. The big tweet is my favorite speaker of the lot of the 3 in my car. It just seems to lack a whole lot less overall than the 12's and 18's....My idea of a perfect three way would be to switch the 12's and 18's out to something with the same results as the illuminator and add a lot of musical detail as well as more midbass. It would be very nice to see a subjective listening impression of the illuminator, or at least something to help determine the potential for how they can actually sound. The GB thing is bs tho...in this economy especially.....


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

226z said:


> Ok, to ask the obvious, if the illuminators tested out so uncommonly well, why are we even looking at other drivers now?


price vs performance.

how much is it worth it to _you_ to get the extra performance out of these drivers when many drivers out there that don't measure as well might suit you just fine?

That's your call.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Second is the SB Acoustics shallow mount 10" sub.


4 or 8 ohm version?


----------



## spag_bace (Aug 24, 2006)

Bikinpunk, you see any issues putting these drivers in a car door?

QTS is around the sweet spot. Xmax's there to handle the power and dig down low.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't understand why you would pop down $650 on a pair of midbasses just to stick them in a door. Especially a driver that has a naked motor and backside like this driver has.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Agreed. You'd really want to build a nice protective umbrella-like hood, perhaps out of one of those foam speaker baffle cups to protect the motor structure and everything else from water and gunk in a door.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Agreed. You'd really want to build a nice protective umbrella-like hood, perhaps out of one of those foam speaker baffle cups to protect the motor structure and everything else from water and gunk in a door.


How about an actual kickpanel install. The motor will be much better protected and you get rid of the nasty vibrations this beast is going to cause in 99% of the doors out there.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Of course that would be better, but he asked about a door install, so. . .


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Understood but if u are spending $600 on the drivers I would go ahead and pony up for the kicks. Just my opinion but I don't see how most doors are going to handle these wo major vibrations. I'm sure it can be done but the cost will likely be as much as the kicks wo the pathlength advantage.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

My future plans are to seal my doors and install these beauties, but the cost is astronomical.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Understood but if u are spending $600 on the drivers I would go ahead and pony up for the kicks. Just my opinion but I don't see how most doors are going to handle these wo major vibrations. I'm sure it can be done but the cost will likely be as much as the kicks wo the pathlength advantage.


Agreed. Mine reside in the kicks.


----------



## jooonnn (Jul 26, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Agreed. Mine reside in the kicks.


Yup can't knock it 'til you rock it.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't understand why you would pop down $650 on a pair of midbasses just to stick them in a door. Especially a driver that has a naked motor and backside like this driver has.


Because the doors have more airspace, kicks cut into the cabin room, and often times they are in unsafe locations.

There are many arguments here that don't sit well with me. The Scan will be a better driver than the next, keeping the install unchanged. I don't see why you absolutely have to change the installation for a better driver. For the same amount of output the scan will have lower distortion. That is intrinsically the benefit of getting a better driver. So you spend a pretty penny, so what? So you can't squeeze every ounce of performance out of it, so what? Can anybody here say they maximize every driver's abilities? If you have the money and depth for them odds are they will beat whatever 7" you have in there right now, that is a simple point.

This neo design is very exposed to outdoor elements. However, many diy drivers have a lot of venting under the spider and therefore are also exposed to the elements. In fact the majority of diy drivers have an exposed motor. If the doors are such a detrimental location why don't we see a plethora of weather damaged drivers? Where is the evidence? People have used the Revelator IB in a door over and over again. How many of those went kaput due to water damage? Finally, condensation formed on the phase plugs of my Excels that were in the door almost every morning in the winter. Guess what, the Excels in the kickpanels got it too. The Excels in the kicks also got a lot more dirt from the shoes as well and the passengers kicked them to the extent the PE grille bent in. Speakers behind door panels never got their grille bent in or dirt from the shoes. Given the track record, how many months the average 7" stays in an enthusiast's car, and the recorded speaker deaths or major damage I'd say exposed motor paper cones have done quite well in the doors. 

Door resonance and rattles are a big issue. There are also folks who have managed to reduce these enough to be very usable for high excursion drivers. There are ways, just how folks have found ways to get more airspace into a kickpanel. The choice between these two lies mostly in the choice of car and installer ability differences as opposed to the cost or quality of the driver.



To answer the original question, the Illuminators model better in IB than the other high excursion 7s I've thrown in there, like the Anarchy, SLS, TB 6.5 sub, AE TD6h. It's easy to see they have a higher Qts. On the other hand the Illuminators model very badly in a very small box, that is to say all the other speakers I've listed in this paragraph are a better choice for low airspace installations, i.e. kickpanels as far as Qts goes. For a quarter cube the Illuminator is at a whopping 1.236 Qtc.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

CV,

Those are all good points but you still have non-optimal path lengths. 

On the subject of dirt, grime, etc if you go with a more vertical mounting in the kicks this becomes largely a non-issue. With kicks like Erin's this is more of an issue but a thin pull of grill cloth over the driver and under the grill usually takes care of these issues. 

To each his own but for me those baby's would go in kicks and only kicks. Why? First pathlengths. Second rattles (much easier to get a dead kick than a dead door). Third airspace (my door is too large for these drivers and the kicks vent into the frame rails). Fourth is axis of orientation (my install would use these in a 2 way and therefore I need the high freq output).

Now having said all of this one of my favorite installs is Kirk's Acura with door mounted mid/midbasses. It definitely proves door mid/midbasses can be done successfully.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

SSSnake said:


> CV,
> 
> Those are all good points but you still have non-optimal path lengths.
> 
> ...


Sure, theoretically the pathlengths are better. In application, the kick speakers, especially the ones crossed high fall victims to obstruction. That is a far bigger problem than short pathlengts or p. differences. How is your soundstage if you use your speaker as a deadpedal? How is your soundstage when you have a fat passenger blocking the kick completely? Far more pertinent imo. The grill cloth method also only works for midbass drivers. That junk stuck on the cloth starts impacting the sound in higher frequencies.

The AEs are a better choice for kicks unless you somehow do manage to create a cutout in the frame of the car that is 7 inches in diameter. I tried venting kicks in the frame before, without a large enough cutout it fails to work. The cutout should also be theoretically be right behind the driver. Then there is the depth of these guys, an inch or so deeper than most 7's and fairly bulky in diameter. That should minimize the gains from kick locations via pathlengths.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> the kick speakers, especially the ones *crossed high *fall victims to obstruction


I agree with this statement 100% which is why I have a seperate tune to combat some of the high end loss from the passengers legs. You would be surprised that the adjustment is not that large but passengers do play hell with the image (but I have this issue with door mounted speakers as well). This seems to be exceptionally bad on long trips where my wife is constantly moving her legs around. 

Obstruction is the primary reason that I went to dash mounted tweets. When the wavelength starts approaching the obstruction size the issue is far worse. This drove me to tweets in the dash. For mid/midbass I haven't really noticed a lot of change in tonality with a passenger. The only reason I have a seperate tune for passenger added is that on long trips I typically have a passenger and long trips are when I enjoy the stereo the most. So it is pretty easy just to set a new curve and pull it up when I need it.



> That junk stuck on the cloth starts impacting the sound in higher frequencies


That must be some LARGE crap getting on the grille cloth. With tweeters yes, mids not so much (at least IME).




> The AEs are a better choice for kicks unless you somehow do manage to create a cutout in the frame of the car that is 7 inches in diameter.


Well in most of my installs the hole into the kick sheet metal is at or bigger than the Sd of the speaker. This seems to work pretty well. I do believe the frame rail acts more as a resistive duct than a true IB setup which can cause odd issues. BTW - I NEVER cut into the frame itself.

The latest project is a .25 cube ported kick with mounting plates for: JBL 2118, B&C 8NDL51, AE TD6H, Vifa NE 8s, and if I can find the scratch I will pop for the scan illums and try them out as well. All of the other speakers are either in the shop or on the way from PE.

If I don't like the ported kicks I will seal the port and cut out the back into the kick/framerail area and try AP. I am tired of rebuilding every time I want to try a new speaker. This should finish my rebuild-itis for quite some time.

Let me say that in car audio more than anywhere else (well except for maybe marriage) you have to compromise. The compromises I pick may not be the ones you would pick. All of the debate back and forth really comes down to which compromises you pick versus what I pick. 

I like the install in the S2000. It looks great and I bet it sounds great but it is probably not the way I would have done it. No big deal, to each his own. I have learned a lot about some of the latest drivers by reviewing your build thread. It's also one of the reasons I decided to get off of my behind and rework my kicks.

Peace


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

Well none of it is an issue to me cause I already built fiberglass door boxes that have the recommended sealed airspace for the revelators, and the illuminators look like they require about the same amount of space. Granted they're heavy and I had to mold the inside of them to every corner of my 300z doors which was a real pain....Anyway, I had wanted to take them out an go with something that would work IB, but this is real tempting if I can sell my revelators and save up a bit, and even tho the cost is high my scans have lasted a long time and still sound great with no issues whatsoever, so it makes sense if they're going to be a driver ill never want to change out and have all the little things I don't like about the revelators resolved.


----------



## spag_bace (Aug 24, 2006)

I've tried the illuminators MB in kick panels. My car is an '08 camry solara. There's simply not enough space and losing the leg room is not comfortable. And not to mention I don't have the skill and time to get the kick panel done right.


----------



## 226z (Jan 13, 2009)

Yea the revelators and illuminators need a lot of space to sound good...I don't see how to avoid loosing all the low end in a kick location. Ive read where some ppl have tried porting a kick box into the door but its an idea to try and regulate the airspace to create a larger sealed type box and I've never thought it reliable or seen any concrete way to calculate how much to regulate it. I angled the front of my door boxes up so they're aren't off axis much but it also helps to have the F1 processor to tune it depending on if a passenger is in the car, etc like he said earlier. Mounted the tweets on axis in the door vents so they don't have any obstruction and are just close enough to the mids to still work. Rev 12's had to go in kicks in the floor which is a bigger problem and I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to just go two way than three...


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

SSSnake said:


> I agree with this statement 100% which is why I have a seperate tune to combat some of the high end loss from the passengers legs. You would be surprised that the adjustment is not that large but passengers do play hell with the image (but I have this issue with door mounted speakers as well). This seems to be exceptionally bad on long trips where my wife is constantly moving her legs around.
> 
> Obstruction is the primary reason that I went to dash mounted tweets. When the wavelength starts approaching the obstruction size the issue is far worse. This drove me to tweets in the dash. For mid/midbass I haven't really noticed a lot of change in tonality with a passenger. The only reason I have a seperate tune for passenger added is that on long trips I typically have a passenger and long trips are when I enjoy the stereo the most. *So it is pretty easy just to set a new curve and pull it up when I need it.*
> 
> ...


All great points. The ones in bold I will comment on.

You can't tune a moving obstruction. IME when I was tuning the Accord with kick mounted everything the frequency response would vary wildly depending on where I kept my feet while testing. Add to that when I drive I constantly shifted my feet to operate the vehicle, and the fact that passengers come in all shapes and sizes and also sit in different positions. In midbass frequencies and lower sound is more or less omnidirectional so placing speakers at the ankles is not such a big deal. What you really need is active tuning controlled by a microprocessor. But then what happens to the reflected sound, phase, and sound decay when you reflect the speaker output off different sized objects? 

Cutting sheetmetal to the extent of this driver's SD is not something the average DIYMA user is *willing* or *able* to do and the opportunity varies wildly with the car option. Remember, my claim was not that kicks always suck or that door IB is always the best, but rather an expensive high quality driver does not necessarily only work in a kickpanel. If I were to claim something to that effect, I'd say because most users won't be able to chop off sheetmetal 6 inches in diameter and the Illuminator requires a lot of room to breathe, a kick is hardly ever the right application. In the AE TD6h case, I'd say by all means, in the kicks is where it will shine.

As for the S2000, shoot in my thread, that's what it's there for.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> You can't tune a moving obstruction.


Agreed completely that why I made th comment about my wife  You can do a general tune that will somewhat compensate for the passenger. Passenger size, clothing, location, etc are all variables that cannot be accounted for but to what extent do they affect the SQ. IMO within tolerable limits for my application. One of those damn compromises again. 



> Cutting sheetmetal to the extent of this driver's SD is not something the average DIYMA user is willing or able to do


I will fully admit that I am likely more willing to cut metal than most DIY folks. This is actually a well established fact with most in the North Alabama MECA circuit (reference 04 Saturn Vue with IB subs). But again it is a decision about compromise. Do you go for the minimal path length difference and go through the pain of cutting metal? Or do you live with more TA and an image that is more sensitive to listening position? Either one is a compromise of some sort (compromise some sheet metal or image stability).

I really have enjoyed your build thread. You were the one that really got me thinking about how much weight I was adding because of the stereo and its effect on performance. I will weigh in with a few more comments in the thread but it is a great build so far.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Ditto on the weight thing as well.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

this could be interesting...
SB Acoustics :: 6 1/2'' SATORI MW16R
May have to try to get a hold of these to compare to the 18wu.


and, don't forget to check out the 12mu results I posted tonight...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ak-12mu-4731t00-klippel-data.html#post1445567


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

SSSnake said:


> Agreed completely that why I made th comment about my wife  You can do a general tune that will somewhat compensate for the passenger. Passenger size, clothing, location, etc are all variables that cannot be accounted for but to what extent do they affect the SQ. IMO within tolerable limits for my application. One of those damn compromises again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You tuned out your wife?!  That's a subject I have no experience with. I guess I'll move to your build thread next if you have one, see the metal work. imp:


----------



## Redrock (Jun 6, 2011)

Erin,
nice work on the testing. I have been lurking but too slammed to engage (140 drivers to test for a car manufacturer).
A note about interpreting the data: I really like to see XC just a bit more -say 10% than XBL. You can see this in the distortion curves. Kms(x) is the limiting factor. If the suspension is limiting before the BL, you can hear the results.
We discussed using the auralizer plugin for the KDA to "hear" what some of these imperfections sound like. Might be fun to pick a driver and run it through. I can do this on anything you have tested if you send me the DB file. Basically I can turn the contribution of BL(x), Kms(x), L(x), and L(i) to music running through the simulation data, on and off. I could make an mp3 file where I turn these on and off at specific times in the file, and even let you listen to their "solo'd" contribution only.

http://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/Speaker_Auralization-Subjective_Evaluation_of_nonlin_Dist_01.pdf

http://www.klippel.de/our-products/rd-system/modules/auralization.html"


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Now that you mention it, I have noticed driver noise when it's suspension limited, which makes sense because you're pushing the suspension harder to get Bl to resolve, correct? 

I'm definitely interested in doing something with the auralizer. How about I send you the file from this test and the 12mu test?
I gave you a call last week about this but didn't get through. I figure you're a busy dude so didn't want to bug you anymore. I'm glad you're around. It helps keep me on my toes. haha.

Thanks for all your help,
Erin

Edit: Patrick, I put a few files up on your FTP under the name "Klippel". The folder I dumped is titled "FTP Folder KDB files". I included 3 midwoofer files and 2 midrange files.
To anyone who wants to see the raw files for the AE TD6H, Exodus Anarchy, Scan 18wu, HAT L4SE, and Scan 12mu, go here:
ftp database @ ftp.redrockacoustics.com
Login: Klippel
Password: klippel


----------



## Redrock (Jun 6, 2011)

I will work on them this week. Can I upload mp3 files to the forum or should I just put them on the FTP? Any suggestions on music source material? Also I have the ability record the output in 24/96 wave file uncompressed. In my experience you can hear the changes even on hi bitrate mp3's but if we need to go more audiophile I can. Just bigger files to DL.
Sorry to have missed your call. The lab has been running 20 hrs a day for about 6 weeks. Phone calls have been almost impossible. Might have been when I was a CEDIA too.
All the best, and really glad to see you back. (Your work is sending ripples through the manufacturing community and sending me business!)
Patrick


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Redrock said:


> I will work on them this week. Can I upload mp3 files to the forum or should I just put them on the FTP? Any suggestions on music source material? Also I have the ability record the output in 24/96 wave file uncompressed. In my experience you can hear the changes even on hi bitrate mp3's but if we need to go more audiophile I can. Just bigger files to DL.
> Sorry to have missed your call. The lab has been running 20 hrs a day for about 6 weeks. Phone calls have been almost impossible. Might have been when I was a CEDIA too.
> All the best, and really glad to see you back. *(Your work is sending ripples through the manufacturing community and sending me business!)*
> Patrick


Good news! We may get higher quality drivers now that Klippel optimization gets enough attention. This has always been a fantasy of mine. Maybe we're not quite at optimization but when testing is appealing enough there may be a slippery slope!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Redrock said:


> I will work on them this week. Can I upload mp3 files to the forum or should I just put them on the FTP? Any suggestions on music source material? Also I have the ability record the output in 24/96 wave file uncompressed. In my experience you can hear the changes even on hi bitrate mp3's but if we need to go more audiophile I can. Just bigger files to DL.


FTP is probably the best way I know. I don't think one can upload mp3/wav to this site and rapidshare would be too troublesome. I figure it's easier for you to just dump them on your ftp and go about your business.

If the differences are noticeable via mp3, go that route. I'll trust your judgement since you're the professional. 




Redrock said:


> All the best, and really glad to see you back. (Your work is sending ripples through the manufacturing community and sending me business!)


No problem. I actually just wanted to ask you a couple things but I've honestly forgotten them. The auralization bit was one, though. The other was in regards to the 10% and 20% overall threshold limits and where you felt it was best to employ the 10%, as far as driver use (ie: if you want to use it as a sub, do you lax parameters to 20% or do you still test at 10%). I spoke with Vance briefly and the gist I got from him was 20% for subs was best and his articles in VC indicate that. He said you do most of his testing so I figured it'd be best to ask you about this. Luckily, all it takes is me pulling up the file and typing in new numbers; no need to re-run a test (unless I didn't beat up on the driver enough).




Redrock said:


> All the best, and really glad to see you back. (Your work is sending ripples through the manufacturing community and sending me business!)
> Patrick


I'm glad to be back. Things at home have settled. The house is on the market with a realtor. Now we just have to keep it clean. 
The fact that my daughter niw takes 2 hour naps really helps, too lol.

I built a new stand that has 4" casters and can roll it in to the room when testing and away to the attic when not being used. Gets the WAF. 

So, what kind of ripples are we talking here? Do I need to watch out for big brother here? You know, I've not heard a peep out of any company. I have, however, heard through the grapevine that a certain car audio mfg doesn't want me testing anything because I'm "not a professional".  
Thought we were past that here, but I guess not. Suppose I'll need to pony up the coin and buy it myself like I have been with these other tests.
Shoot me an email if it's best. I'm curious to know if there's something I may need to be keeping in mind. Lord knows the last thing this non-professional wants is a Cease and Desist letter. :surprised:


----------



## 454Casull (Nov 6, 2005)

So, does this mean that if you use this driver in a system where it will not exceed +/- 5 mm excursion, it is LITERALLY perfect, e.g. impossible to improve?

EDIT: I mean for low-signal non-linear distortion. Sensitivity could be better, of course, with such a low BL. What's interesting is that other drivers of the same size do measure better in other kinds of testing.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

454Casull said:


> So, does this mean that if you use this driver in a system where it will not exceed +/- 5 mm excursion, it is LITERALLY perfect, e.g. impossible to improve?
> 
> EDIT: I mean for low-signal non-linear distortion. Sensitivity could be better, of course, with such a low BL. What's interesting is that other drivers of the same size do measure better in other kinds of testing.


Perfect non-linear distortion performance is 0 HD and IMD. No driver is perfect even over very small excursions with very linear motors. What drivers did you have in mind?


----------



## 454Casull (Nov 6, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> Perfect non-linear distortion performance is 0 HD and IMD. No driver is perfect even over very small excursions with very linear motors. What drivers did you have in mind?


Specifically, the Usher 8945P in Zaph's testing. The HD sweeps at 96 dB @ 0.5 meters show it to do a little bit better than the 18 cm Illuminator across the board.

Zaph|Audio

Why can a distortionless driver not exist?


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

454Casull said:


> Specifically, the Usher 8945P in Zaph's testing. The HD sweeps at 96 dB @ 0.5 meters show it to do a little bit better than the 18 cm Illuminator across the board.
> 
> Zaph|Audio
> 
> *Why can a distortionless driver not exist?*


As soon as the cone moves, it distorts... Any driver WILL distort

Kelvin


----------



## 454Casull (Nov 6, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> As soon as the cone moves, it distorts... Any driver WILL distort
> 
> Kelvin


So there are distortion mechanisms we still do not understand?


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Well I haven't seen every Klippel tests but when looking at the BL, Suspension and Le distortion graph, I've never seen the suspension curve flat... I've seen the other two flat on the same driver though (SB SW26 for eg.). 

Kelvin


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

454Casull said:


> So there are distortion mechanisms we still do not understand?


You can't look at the Klippel test as the complete driver performance test. For one you have suspension resonance in all parts. Secondly the Klippel fits a curve to the actual data, think smoothing.


----------



## denetnz (Jul 31, 2009)

454Casull said:


> Specifically, the Usher 8945P in Zaph's testing.


You mean the Illuminator is not a clear winner? For the second time in as many weeks, just when I'm on the verge of ordering, new information comes to light..

Can anyone shed any light from experience on how the Usher compares to the Illuminator? (or Revelator for that matter)

How soon can we get some Ushers on the Klippel?


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

denetnz said:


> You mean the Illuminator is not a clear winner? For the second time in as many weeks, just when I'm on the verge of ordering, new information comes to light..
> 
> Can anyone shed any light from experience on how the Usher compares to the Illuminator? (or Revelator for that matter)
> 
> How soon can we get some Ushers on the Klippel?


Zaph's test on the 7" group is 92db 1/2 m, or 86db at 1m. How much power is the Illuminator getting in this test? What does that say about the overlap of Klippel testing with Zaph's HD testing? 

The Illuminator stands out in the crowd of 7" in many ways, but let's single out the motor. How is the Illuminator topology different than your common 7" and what advantages/disadvantages does that give the woofer in small and large signal domains?


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'm willing to accept a pair (as a gift) and give my thoughts. 


I'll put them in a sealed enclosure low in the doors. :chef:


----------



## 454Casull (Nov 6, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> Zaph's test on the 7" group is 92db 1/2 m, or 86db at 1m. How much power is the Illuminator getting in this test? What does that say about the overlap of Klippel testing with Zaph's HD testing?
> 
> The Illuminator stands out in the crowd of 7" in many ways, but let's single out the motor. How is the Illuminator topology different than your common 7" and what advantages/disadvantages does that give the woofer in small and large signal domains?


I'm not sure. It looks like at low output the Usher does better, but it's hard to say what happens at higher output since the Usher hasn't been Klippelized (forgive me, truly).

I'd put in to get an 8945P on the machine. Anyone with me?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Guys, I don't mind testing the Auras if someone can get me a pair, but be warned: Starting in November, I will not be testing anything until after Christmas. I've got to get my Christmas display up at the house and that consumes a lot of time because it's all computer controlled. It'll take me at least a month to get it all said and done and by the time that happens, Christmas events will be in full swing.

I'm going to be testing the aluminum cone version of these drivers for George. After that, I don't foresee any testing the rest of this year unless someone can get me something asap. Even then, I can't guarantee it'll get done.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

454Casull said:


> I'm not sure. It looks like at low output the Usher does better, but it's hard to say what happens at higher output since the Usher hasn't been Klippelized (forgive me, truly).
> 
> I'd put in to get an 8945P on the machine. Anyone with me?


The Illuminator sensitivity is 87.5db at 1w/1m. That means in Zaph's test it's using a fraction of a watt for those measurements. You don't really need a linear motor to test well at 1w. In fact, a typical overhung motor like the Usher has more BL at the rest position than linear motors like Scan's underhung, dual gaps etc. You trade off a little motor force at low excursions to get linearity and therefore low distortion at higher output. 

In HD tests at higher output levels I'd have no doubts about the ability of the Scan to maintain a lower distortion profile. That is well worth the tradeoff at very low output levels for two reasons, distortion is already really low at less than 1 watt so differences are negligible and or inaudible, and music is very dynamic so higher output tests are more inline with everyday performance. 

I'd love to see the Usher on the Klippel, but my bet is 10 to 1 the Scan is better.


----------



## 454Casull (Nov 6, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> The Illuminator sensitivity is 87.5db at 1w/1m. That means in Zaph's test it's using a fraction of a watt for those measurements. You don't really need a linear motor to test well at 1w. In fact, a typical overhung motor like the Usher has more BL at the rest position than linear motors like Scan's underhung, dual gaps etc. You trade off a little motor force at low excursions to get linearity and therefore low distortion at higher output.
> 
> In HD tests at higher output levels I'd have no doubts about the ability of the Scan to maintain a lower distortion profile. That is well worth the tradeoff at very low output levels for two reasons, distortion is already really low at less than 1 watt so differences are negligible and or inaudible, and music is very dynamic so higher output tests are more inline with everyday performance.
> 
> I'd love to see the Usher on the Klippel, but my bet is 10 to 1 the Scan is better.


On the other hand, music typically coasts along as a baseline SPL and high SPLs tend to mask distortion if it doesn't rise dramatically.


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

According to PE:



> Even though the XMAX for the Usher 8945A is listed at 6mm, Klippel analysis shows this woofer can throw +/- 10mm symmetrically at the 70% BL point.


Source

I use the 8945p and it's got great midbass output and very clean, but that seems a bit suspect. I'd like to see them analyzed, too.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Knobby Digital said:


> According to PE:
> 
> Source
> 
> I use the 8945p and it's got great midbass output and very clean, but that seems a bit suspect. I'd like to see them analyzed, too.


What about the suspension? Might be suspension limited in terms of throw and distortion... 

Kelvin


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

^agreed. Notice also they use the 70% point not .82% like done here for the Scan so the Usher had it easier. Either way, that much linearity in the Usher? That's sweet.


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

The surround is extremely soft, and IIRC, the 7" Ushers use the same spider as the 8" models. What that actually means to CMS curves would have to be seen. I would imagine that the author of the project piece would use the less limiting factor to choose from in writing.


----------



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Damn it, this thing tested too well. Now Solen has all of my money


----------



## Mike_Dee (Mar 26, 2011)

I read on the specs. that this driver has extremely good excursion. It would have been cool to post a YouTube of it in action.


----------



## 454Casull (Nov 6, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> ^agreed. Notice also they use the 70% point not .82% like done here for the Scan so the Usher had it easier. Either way, that much linearity in the Usher? That's sweet.


Now I really want to see the Klippel data.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

The Ushers are awesome. I used the non phase plug A model and it's one of my favorite speakers I've ever heard/used. Would definitely be interested in seeing how they compare.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

454Casull said:


> Now I really want to see the Klippel data.


I ran the numbers since I saw this post as I was about to post new data. Changing the distortion limits to 20% total gives the 18wu suspension limited xmax at 12.4mm. Bl is >12.6mm (doesn't resolve). Hope this helps in your Usher comparison.

- Erin


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You asked for it, so here it is...


Unfortunately, there's too much continuation data to edit my first and 2nd posts and add this there, so I have to tack it on at the end.




FR/HD at 2.83v/1m:


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FR/HD at 102dB @ 1/2m.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

IMD Testing:


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

since I know we all have been comparing the Audio Technology 18h and Dyn Esotar 650 against each other, I plotted all the frequency response on axis, at 2.83v/1m together.

Scan= Blue
Dyn = Red
AT = Black












I then normalized the Dyn and AT responses _against _the Scan. In other words, I made those two drivers' FR relative to the Scan 18wu so you can more easily compare the three.
Just look at a given frequency response, say the Scan (in blue), and compare what the AT (black) and/or Dyn (red) look like against that line. You can compare the AT vs Dyn in this same manner too. Normalizing one plot makes it easier to compare all the drivers on the same plot.

For example, at 5khz, the AT is about 0.4dB higher than the Scan, while the Dyn is about 7.8dB lower.
At 500hz, the Dyn and Scan are close to the same output, and the AT is about 1.8dB higher.













Here are some driver comparisons:


----------



## d5sc (Aug 14, 2007)

Damn, those Danes make some great tasting pastries !?

Domo arigato gozaimasu on the comparative testing!

George


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm about to take my little girl to the park and have a kickass Daddy day. I'll sit down tonight after she goes to sleep and really try to parse out the data later so you guys can get a better feel for what this all means. 

All in all, the Scan's xmax bodes well for it on the low end. If you look at the HD @ 102db vs the AT HD @ 102dB, you'll see the Scan has about 3.1% THD at 55hz while the AT 18H has about 5.8% THD. This means, compared to the fundamental, the Scan's distortion level is down about 31dB, while the AT is down 24dB at 55hz. That's a difference of about 7dB. The dyn reaches 9% THD at 65hz, or ~21dB down from the fundamental. The difference in the dyn and scan is then 10dB, which is perceived as twice as loud.


Of course, this is only ONE SMALL piece of the puzzle. I'm just giving something to go on. FR needs to be addressed, and the *entire sum of distortion components need to be looked at *(not just one particular area) to determine best use.




Here's a good % distortion to dB calculator:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Another way to look at the Illuminator bass performance versus the AT is to say the Illuminator can be crossed at 55hz to generate as much distortion as the AT at 80hz. Even that is to downplay Scan's performance since 3% THD at 55hz is not as annoying as 3%THD at 80hz. So really 50hz vs. 80hz crossover point. That's huge, it's two ticks down on my P99. 

Midrange wise it's a clear winner across the board in my book. The Scan does have some massive IMD peaks but those are moved out of the desired bandwidth whereas the AT has them smack in the middle at 1.5khz. The 2nd order HD peak at 1khz is taller but narrower so maybe this is a tie, and the FR looks just as good as the AT so again a tie. Overall HD seems lower otherwise. So the Scan is equal in places and better in others. Picking the Scan is dominant strategy. 

I'm really curious how my metal Illuminator would do. I doubt it has the hickups at 1khz like these guys, but is somewhat messy if you want to cross over 3khz.


----------



## s4turn (Jun 17, 2009)

wicked review, im still trying to get my head around the tests 

just wondering what your opinion is on the sound of them?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I just did a write-up review on the Dyn 650 here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1576995-post30.html

I'll try to do something similar for this driver and the AT. Though, George's little blurb does some good justice.


----------



## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I have wanted these new Scan-Speak drivers since they came out... love them. Awesome data too


----------



## Rupinder (Jan 25, 2011)

can somebody explain this noob why there is so much difference in the qts shown on madisound site which gives it at 0.29 and the qts in klippel testing by eric where it comes at .46
thanks


----------



## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

Rupinder said:


> can somebody explain this noob why there is so much difference in the qts shown on madisound site which gives it at 0.29 and the qts in klippel testing by eric where it comes at .46
> thanks


QTS values are as per Suspension parameters, as with burn in of the speaker the the QTS would decrease hence the values might be different at the time of testing in both cases.


----------



## Rupinder (Jan 25, 2011)

here the qts has increased from 0.29 to 0.46.why is that .i can understand minor variations but this was quite drastically different


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Rupinder said:


> here the qts has increased from 0.29 to 0.46.why is that .i can understand minor variations but this was quite drastically different


Scan may have a different method for measuring. VC mag got >.4 too from what I recall.


----------



## piyush7243 (Sep 9, 2009)

Rupinder said:


> here the qts has increased from 0.29 to 0.46.why is that .i can understand minor variations but this was quite drastically different


also the Qts would only decrease over a period of time and not increase.



cvjoint said:


> Scan may have a different method for measuring. VC mag got >.4 too from what I recall.


very true maybe different methods of measuring..


----------



## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Anyone use these Scans in a 2-Way? Tweeter?


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Anyone use these Scans in a 2-Way? Tweeter?


I did, home setup. Ran it with a 6600 air circ tweet. Nice sounding setup. I use them 3-way nowadays with a 12wu midrange, sounds even better


----------



## nucci (Mar 29, 2012)

Crossover on the 2-way?


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

nucci said:


> Crossover on the 2-way?


Accoustic 4th order I think, 2200Hz. Never made the xovers, not very good with passives.


----------



## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

I'd be in for a pair.. but no way im putting $250 drivers in a daily driver truck..
bypass the importer you knock 30-40% 0ff cost.. should be doable

list is what $350..so yea import cost around $250 or less..


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

tnbubba said:


> I'd be in for a pair.. but no way im putting $250 drivers in a daily driver truck..
> bypass the importer you knock 30-40% 0ff cost.. should be doable
> 
> list is what $350..so yea import cost around $250 or less..


How would you "bypass" the importer?


----------



## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

call the manufacturer.. or find a cheaper importer..
any commerce that crosses out border HAS to go thru importer ..unless you are private sale or OE< who is bringing own material in for you own use.
basically DIYMA or a group buyer becomes importer.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

1. Madisound is the chief importer. Smaller businesses buy from them. Scan Speak will redirect you to Madisound.
2. A pair of underwear cost me $40 in Denmark 
3. The motor is fully clad in copper, the motor is probably 1 piece neo, almost every suspension part is variable in thickness
4. countless hours are spent on optimizing a speaker like this
5. built by hand
6. the best

I think it's priced very well. This is no boutique car audio speaker.


----------



## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

so still a hell of a markup when madisound gets it.. not knocking madisound but I bet they got 40-50%..if not they are losing money.. you cant tie up much money( ie inventory) for long or you are going backwards.. worked in many many industries and Ive never seen less that 30% on anything that has to sit on a shelf.
hell grizz is in Germany maybe he can import us some?


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

tnbubba said:


> so still a hell of a markup when madisound gets it.. not knocking madisound but I bet they got 40-50%..if not they are losing money.. you cant tie up much money( ie inventory) for long or you are going backwards.. worked in many many industries and Ive never seen less that 30% on anything that has to sit on a shelf.
> hell grizz is in Germany maybe he can import us some?


I'm sure they make money, but that percentage is fair imo. Compare it to boutique companies who give you untruthful information, and charge upwards of 500% over cost... 

Add to that the European counterpart of Madisound did not answer my emails when I received a defective product, import duties and shipping offset all the sales price savings, and that Madisound has fantastic support...

I had a $350 Seas driver break on me and I didn't even buy it from Madisound but a company that bought from them. Madisound sent me a brand new driver no questions. When the coils burned on my Scans they imported a new replacement diaphragm and listed it on their site. 

Madisound is top notch for doing business and their prices are just imo. Parts Express may have better prices from time to time but I find the selection is much better at Madi, and I never feel like I over pay.


----------



## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Their list price in the Netherlands is € 306,95 so I don't think the madisound price is way off! Even this site from Denmark is way above that when converted to dollar prices:
18 cm bas/mellemtone 4 Ohm - ScanSpeak Illuminator - FreQuence

It almost makes sense for us to import from the states


----------



## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

i never said madisoudn wasn't good.... they are good to deal with..

Im just a cheap bastard...


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

tnbubba said:


> i never said madisoudn wasn't good.... they are good to deal with..
> 
> Im just a cheap bastard...


I can relate to that


----------



## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

did I mention BROKE too?


----------



## Dubstep (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm gonna pull the trigger on a set of these, I'm at the cross roads, should I do a 3 way or 2 way ran active. Money or equipment isnt a prob. I just hope if I run a 2 way front end that these will cover midbass more than adequately as well mid range duties, either way I go it will be an Illuminator set up. I thought about Hybrid's but I'm really attracted to these speakers! Dam sexy! I'm really glad to know these got some very good reviews!


----------



## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

Dubstep said:


> I'm gonna pull the trigger on a set of these, I'm at the cross roads, should I do a 3 way or 2 way ran active. Money or equipment isnt a prob. I just hope if I run a 2 way front end that these will cover midbass more than adequately as well mid range duties, either way I go it will be an Illuminator set up. I thought about Hybrid's but I'm really attracted to these speakers! Dam sexy! I'm really glad to know these got some very good reviews!


I'm running the 18wu4741 paired with the Illum rr tweets and couldn't be any happier. I have them crossed at 2k. Sometimes I don't even run my sub they sound that good down low. They have great mid bass punch. 

Yes they sound good pulling midbass and midrange duties. I have a smile on my face each time I listen to them. You will too.


----------



## Dubstep (Apr 7, 2010)

Jcharger13 said:


> I'm running the 18wu4741 paired with the Illum rr tweets and couldn't be any happier. I have them crossed at 2k. Sometimes I don't even run my sub they sound that good down low. They have great mid bass punch.
> 
> Yes they sound good pulling midbass and midrange duties. I have a smile on my face each time I listen to them. You will too.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

I asked on here about crossing the the Illum tweeters at 2k @ 24db per oct and was told that generally 2xFS is the rule for lowest crossing point. I use the short small face RR tweeters (R3004/6020) and the FS is 625 so I figured I'd be ok. Has worked well. I think the deep RR tweets you are talking about have an even lower FS.

Right now I have the mids crossed @ 1800 @ 24db. Have played around a little but this seems to work well for me. 

You will enjoy them. Only problem I'm having is more door rattles keep popping up. Seems like every time I get one straightened up another one roars it's ugly head up. Grrrrr!!!


----------



## jimmy154 (Jul 26, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> The Illuminator sensitivity is 87.5db at 1w/1m. That means in Zaph's test it's using a fraction of a watt for those measurements. You don't really need a linear motor to test well at 1w. In fact, a typical overhung motor like the Usher has more BL at the rest position than linear motors like Scan's underhung, dual gaps etc. You trade off a little motor force at low excursions to get linearity and therefore low distortion at higher output.
> 
> In HD tests at higher output levels I'd have no doubts about the ability of the Scan to maintain a lower distortion profile. That is well worth the tradeoff at very low output levels for two reasons, distortion is already really low at less than 1 watt so differences are negligible and or inaudible, and music is very dynamic so higher output tests are more inline with everyday performance.
> 
> I'd love to see the Usher on the Klippel, but my bet is 10 to 1 the Scan is better.


I agree with you and the other guy who said "one the other hand . . ."
It is more of a test for best case scenario listening.

SS 18W (Illuminator) sensitivity is about 86 dB (more like 85) 1w/m for 96 dB theoretically you need 8 watts.
Half the distance you need 2 watts for 96 dB.
Don't know where you get a fraction of a watt?

These drivers (or distortion measurement for them) are kind of useless past a few watts anyway, IMHO.

That being said SS does design most of their woofers to be wide bandwidth and low distortion AND high excursion. SS is great at doing everything really good. They really push the limit, so I also like the better than the Usher of course. They cost more too.

Sometimes people forget a test represents how something is going to perform in a given application, but it can never mimic the given application, that's why it is called a test.

I want to see the Usher 8948A woofer tested. Since it's Usher's most popular woofer.


----------



## jimmy154 (Jul 26, 2009)

Here is a lot of distortion data including the Usher 8948A and 8945P:
??-????????


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

jimmy154 said:


> I agree with you and the other guy who said "one the other hand . . ."
> It is more of a test for best case scenario listening.
> 
> SS 18W (Illuminator) sensitivity is about 86 dB (more like 85) 1w/m for 96 dB theoretically you need 8 watts.
> ...


That, or you can call it relevant for nearfield listening. 

If you want to be specific Zaph's test of the 7" Illuminator is at 92db 1/2 meter. At 1/2 meter the Scan's sensitivity should be 93.5db for 1w input. So 92 db is less than a watt. 

I've had a 10" midbass/midrange in one of my earlier installs and now I'm going back to that size driver. In my applications, I can tell you that par is 110db full range. What a driver can do with a few watts is important to the extent it shows breakup and resonance but HD in general should be fantastic no matter what the speaker at that low output.

If performance in low 90db was sufficient in a car, I'd keep my stock Bose. I tested it, and HD is not a problem at those levels.


----------



## jimmy154 (Jul 26, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> That, or you can call it relevant for nearfield listening.
> 
> If you want to be specific Zaph's test of the 7" Illuminator is at 92db 1/2 meter. At 1/2 meter the Scan's sensitivity should be 93.5db for 1w input. So 92 db is less than a watt.
> 
> ...


Oops, I forgot the test was done at 92 dB at .5 meter, not 96.
Still would require more than a watt to get the 85 dB 1w, 1m Illuminator to 92 dB.
+3 dB double the intensity.
Half the distance is quadrupedal the intensity, so +6 db of course.
Illuminator with same power at half distance would be 91 dB.
surface of sphere: 4*pi*r^2
Of course, doesn't matter what portion of a sphere it is the important part is the radius squared.

I just skimmed the webpage again.
Actually the 85 is calculated, I forgot that too.
But if you want to go with the FR graph you can just add 6 dB. 
Anyway it takes about 1 watt to get the Illuminator to 92 dB at .5m through most of it's bandwidth.

It's true, Bose is very good at designing their speaker systems.
And in a car it's 99% implementation/design. That is why I have almost never heard a car audio system sound "better" than a Bose stock system or most stock car systems for that matter. 
Louder, sure, better performance at moderate volume, no.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

jimmy154 said:


> Oops, I forgot the test was done at 92 dB at .5 meter, not 96.
> Still would require more than a watt to get the 85 dB 1w, 1m Illuminator to 92 dB.
> +3 dB double the intensity.
> Half the distance is quadrupedal the intensity, so +6 db of course.
> ...


I was going of off Erin's test results for sensitivity. They are a bit higher than the manufacturer's. No matter how you slice it, less than 2 watts is small signal domain. I don't believe average listening levels are reflective of small signal domain, much less when you really crank it for music. 

The Bose system is decent. In So. Cal. and No. Cal. I heard many systems outclassing a stock premium one. For the 10lbs of electronics Bose put in it for $10 it really is amazing though. Couldn't beat it myself. I'm looking forward to Scan making a 10" Illuminator. Hell, I wouldn't mind if they kept the same motor.


----------



## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

I picked up a pair of these recently and have them in my car doors IB. Subjectively speaking, they are some badass drivers with the cleanest mid-bass out of any mid woofer I've tried to date and their have been quite a few high end ones. These 18WU's aren't lacking in output and blend effortlessly with the subs. 
I'm only throwing this out there because before purchasing these I found very little information about them being used in an actual car door install. But I still wanted to try them for myself.


----------



## Fyalinks (Mar 6, 2016)

gregerst22 said:


> I picked up a pair of these recently and have them in my car doors IB. Subjectively speaking, they are some badass drivers with the cleanest mid-bass out of any mid woofer I've tried to date and their have been quite a few high end ones. These 18WU's aren't lacking in output and blend effortlessly with the subs.
> I'm only throwing this out there because before purchasing these I found very little information about them being used in an actual car door install. But I still wanted to try them for myself.


Very good info. I'm hoping that the 22W/4851T00 will do similarly well since they're parameters are not far off.


----------

