# How rough is the extreme winter temperatures on speakers, subs and amps? Talking -40



## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Maybe its just me, but I notice in the winters, when its very very deepfreeze cold that my stereos sound isnt as good when at normal temps. Its not a huge difference but its noticable. In winters i alaways turned the volume on my HU to 0 so when i start the car, no sound is coming out of the sub and speakers. I wait til the car is fully hot inside the cabin and i will feel my hand along my drivers side speaker grill to see how cold it still feels before i turn up the volume. Even then, when its this cold out, i dont crank it, I play it maybe 10-15% volume cause im always worried that its extra strain on the coils and cones even with the cabin hot...you cant tell if the speakers themselves are still frozen or what.

Is it normal for the sound to sound much worse when its cold? Do you think its okay to still crank subs and speakers in this cold of weather?


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

Maybe air density also affects how you perceive the sound...


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

While not as cold as Canada, here in Minnesota we get our fair share of sub zero temperatures. I do notice the sound is a bit strange at first, but it does improve, I would imagine as the voice coils warm up.

My process is generally, keep the volume at 1-2 so there's at least some power running to the speakers when they're cold, this gets them warming up while my car is warming up, once I feel the heat start to come out of my vents, I'll begin driving, about 4-5 miles down the road now the heat is blasting good I turn it up to normal listening volume. After about 5 more minutes the sound is pretty much normal.

I doubt I'll damage my speakers the way I'm doing it, haven't had any problems so far this winter.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

It's not the voice coil that's changing or even the density of the air. If so travelling down to Death Valley ought to have similar effects to being col. It doesn't, I know because my stereo sounds exactly the same on the numerous times I've visited. Cold voice coils would actually be a good thing in terms of better conductivity.

But the big thing that changes is the suspension stiffness. Rubber and other flexible items will get extremely stiff. This would in turn drastically lower the Qms of the speaker thus in turn raising the Fs. This would definitely change up the parameters of the speaker.

You could also change the stiffness of the radiating elements. Naturally stiff tweeters might not change much but the break up effects of softer tweeters or woofers like coated silk or polypropylene can definitely change and become stiff in the cold. This can potentially alter their sound.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

It got so cold outside here today, I almost had to put on pants...


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

when it is colder than 5° or so I notice that I get most of my sound from my HLCDs. very tinny and bright sound until the mids warm up and the subs sound like they are not playing much at all. I think that has mostly to do with the Butyl surounds getting stiff and making cone movement difficult.

for me, after 10-15 minutes things loosen up and start working.

as for amplifiers, no consumer grade electronics are rated for -40° F so there is guarantee it will work. but mine worked fine a few weeks ago at -5°


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## Coolcolombian (Mar 12, 2009)

Sure its rough, I had issues with my amp or my Bit Ten D few weeks ago when temps where below -30, more info here; http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...io-discussion/158118-help-mid-bass-issue.html


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ferrofluid in tweeters and some other speakers will have a higher viscosity.Ive had certain tweeters that would have very low output until I poured the power to them to heat up the voice coils and ferrofluid.After that they would work fine.
A friend of mine has a pair Orion Cobalt 15's that he is storing in my garage while he is working in Chicago for a few months.He was always complaining that when it got real cold he had no bass.Well,the other day I was in the garage and went to move them and noticed the cones were locked up almost completely.I had to push them really hard to even get them to move 1/4".I thought about what he said,looked at the temperature in the garage and it was 22 degrees.So I moved them in the basement where it was 69 Degrees and within an hour they moved about an inch with zero effort.
After trying to convince him it was not his subs the whole time Im now a believer it was.I was telling him it was most probably his battery not having the CCA it had when it was warmer.Which I still believe has a lot to do with it also.But in his case I think the subs was the biggest factor.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you have tuned your setup somewhere warm and then listen the same system when the drivers are frozen - it often sounds harsh and thin, basically everything sounds like crap until the drivers has warmed up. T/S parameters will be way way off at really low temperatures.

Zaph|Audio


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## 63flip (Oct 16, 2013)

This winter has been pretty brutal in NE Indiana and I've had issues for the first time. My daily driver for back and forth to work doesn't have a space in the garage so it's been out cold. I am running a JL Slash 250/1v2 on an 8w7ae and my amp has been giving me troubles on mornings below 5 or 10 degrees. It powers on but I am getting no output from my sub. Since it's in an extended cab Ranger it was immediately noticed. After about 15 minutes or so at low volume the sub will start fading in. I've been told it won't hurt anything but pulled them out anyway after about the 3rd time it happened. No sense risking it. I know it was the cold because two nights while my wife's van was in the shop I put it in our garage and had no problems. Both nights were below zero.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

63flip said:


> This winter has been pretty brutal in NE Indiana and I've had issues for the first time. My daily driver for back and forth to work doesn't have a space in the garage so it's been out cold. I am running a JL Slash 250/1v2 on an 8w7ae and my amp has been giving me troubles on mornings below 5 or 10 degrees. It powers on but I am getting no output from my sub. Since it's in an extended cab Ranger it was immediately noticed. After about 15 minutes or so at low volume the sub will start fading in. I've been told it won't hurt anything but pulled them out anyway after about the 3rd time it happened. No sense risking it. I know it was the cold because two nights while my wife's van was in the shop I put it in our garage and had no problems. Both nights were below zero.


More likely the sub was overly stiff and just wasnt making any noise.

I have a 500/1 and 2 15' and i have nearly no bass for 15 minutes on days like that. Subs have to warm up snd loosen ip

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Does the suspension really stiffen up that much? I can't imagine a cloth like spider stiffening so badly it won't allow cone movement. Is there a chance that moisture is freezing in the spider or even the voice coil to prevent movement? I would think a butyl surround would break or tear if it were so stiff that it stops the cone from moving. 

About the warmup, how does anything warm up when they're being fed little power when cold? Does the spider or surround make any appreciable heat from movement? It doesn't make sense that a few mm or movement will have any effect on the temperature. I can understand the voice coil warming up but even then, if you're taking it easy to avoid potential damage to the cold sub, and most subs are rated over 500w of thermal power handing, I don't see how feeding it 50w is going to make any appreciable heat.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

If you don't think 50w is a significant amount of heat, I think its because you have never touched my 35w hot soldering iron!!
Also remember speakers are very inefficient, about 95% of the energy is wasted as heat...

I once read a test someone made by comparing warm and frozen speakers using a freezer. The author lived in a cold region and the conclusion made him quit SQ car audio !!
But it wasn't bad enough to keep me away, I just play at half volume for a few minutes when its really cold.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The difference can be great between cold and warm drivers. Especially together with any forms of vented alignments (BP as well). The tune frequency changes and everything sound crappy as ****. Measure T/S parameters of the drivers in winter temperatures (if you attain an impedance peak, this is). Q, Fs, Vas will be seriously off.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

WinWiz said:


> If you don't think 50w is a significant amount of heat, I think its because you have never touched my 35w hot soldering iron!!
> Also remember speakers are very inefficient, about 95% of the energy is wasted as heat...
> 
> I once read a test someone made by comparing warm and frozen speakers using a freezer. The author lived in a cold region and the conclusion made him quit SQ car audio !!
> But it wasn't bad enough to keep me away, I just play at half volume for a few minutes when its really cold.


There *might* be just a little difference in surface area and resistance. Possibly volatage too.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

Sure the surface area means something but 50w heat is 50w heat no matter what resistance or voltage...


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

Unless you're playing test tones that 50 watts drops a lot. Music is dynamic, on average only about 25% of the peak power is actually being driven. So if you're listening at maximum volume with a 50 watt amp you're averaging only 12.5 watts of output power. Divide that out by surface area and include speaker efficiency and you've only got about 10 watts of thermal energy heating the speaker.

Basically in such extreme cold this wouldn't make much of a dent in helping to soften the speaker's soft parts. Most of the benefit in softening the speaker parts comes from the thermal energy your car heater is heating the air with not the thermal energy the voice coils are creating.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

qwertydude said:


> Unless you're playing test tones that 50 watts drops a lot. Music is dynamic, on average only about 25% of the peak power is actually being driven. So if you're listening at maximum volume with a 50 watt amp you're averaging only 12.5 watts of output power. Divide that out by surface area and include speaker efficiency and you've only got about 10 watts of thermal energy heating the speaker.
> 
> Basically in such extreme cold this wouldn't make much of a dent in helping to soften the speaker's soft parts. Most of the benefit in softening the speaker parts comes from the thermal energy your car heater is heating the air with not the thermal energy the voice coils are creating.


Oh so you are talking about 50w peak? ok but isn't peak always double the sustained? where did you get 25% from?

I simply don't believe your statement. When I drive my car in extreme cold the doors are still frozen inside after an hour! The air cooling from outside when driving in -40c is about as big as the heat coming from inside the car, so heat from the car can barely keep the doors above 0c.

Air isn't very efficient at transporting heat so im confident the heat dissipated inside the speaker will warm it up before the heat from the engine warms the cooling water who warms the heater so it can begin to warm the air in the cabin and then get into the doors and heat up the speaker, especially when your doors are sealed!


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

The 25% is about the average power I've bench tested my amps consuming.

It's probably less but that's worst case scenario when I was testing out fully sustained average power my class AB amps were drawing over a long term use for music. It was in order to design a useable current limited ultracapacitor power supply for a high powered car amplifier. I was designing it to allow the installation of very high powered amplifiers in a car without having to resort to electrical mods. Basically the ultracapacitor completely removes the peak waveforms and in effect averages the power consumption to a steady DC equivalent which I found was anywhere between 10-25% of the rated RMS output of the amplifier. But this was with music only.

I found in real life you could get away with as little as 10% of the amplifiers rated RMS power. Rockford Fosgate had a similar design theory with their "Hybrid" amplifiers that could output 10,000 watts but for short bursts only ie musical peaks and only draw similar power as a 1000 watt amplifier. Kinda similar to my findings which was 10% peak draw.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

From a materials science point of view there's a big difference in the flexibility of most polymers between 0C and -40C. Most decent speakers will be made of materials that will still maintain flexibility in freezing temperatures. It's when you get significantly colder that they'll suffer more.

I know because I was in -12C recently in Colorado, and my sub performed just fine, it didn't sound any different and didn't need any warming up to sound normal. Neither did my speakers. But I'm pretty sure if it was -40C then it would probably sound like crap as rubber will turn hard as a rock by then but just touching the surrounds they didn't feel any stiffer at -12 as they did on a normal day.

Plus there could still be heat from the air inside which is still significant since your doors may be sealed but the speakers aren't isolated from the car environment. They still will be exposed to the nice warmer air inside the car unless you make it a habit not to use your car heater.

And on top of that sustained flexing of polymers will still enhance their flexibility temporarily even if cold.


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

I've been all out playing my tunes in -29 Celcius off and on for the past few weeks. 

"I had to take my subs out for the winter!" Famous line you won't hear from this guy!


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

Tell me how fast does your car heat up in minus 40? If I don't floor it my car will take more than 15 min to heat the cabin when cars is cold and it like minus 20. And I don't floor my car or my amp when they are cold.

But I guess I will simply just have to disconnect one speaker on a very cold day and see if the playing speaker heats up first...


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

The amp you could "floor" when cold. Solid state electronics love the cold. Electrolytic capacitors are stable down to at least -40C.

Speakers and subwoofers not so much. Flex them too fast and too cold and like a tennis ball soaked in liquid nitrogen the rubber can simply crack.

Play a speaker in the -40C cold at normal listening volume and point an infrared thermometer at the dustcap. You won't see a temperature shift, I can guarantee you. And that's gonna be the warmest part of the speaker.

But move the same speaker to a 0C room and measure how fast the dustcap gets up to room temperature.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

I just made very unscientific test:
Started the car and the soundsystem at the same time. Crused at low speed with volume at 22. The temp. outside was just about 0 deg. C cause on some spots the water had frozen to ice. 
The car is parked outside so Iit was also 0 deg.C inside. The sound was somewhat compressed, but after about 4 minutes the sound quite quickly came alive, but I couldn't feel any heat in the car yet so I gently touched the surround of one my dynaudio 7.5" it was cold and stiff. 
I concentrated on the dyn. woofers in the front, so I kind of forgot to listen critically at the sub. After about 8 min I could clearly feel the temp rising inside the car.
This made me think, on my speakers it must be something else than the surround that "breaks" the sound when cold -Or the material of the surround change properties quickly just above 0 deg C.
But my car is very old so my windows leak a lot, and this means that when its raining I always get a decent amount of water in my doors, so maybe the spider was frozen?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

WinWiz said:


> Oh so you are talking about 50w peak? ok but isn't peak always double the sustained? where did you get 25% from?
> 
> I simply don't believe your statement. When I drive my car in extreme cold the doors are still frozen inside after an hour! The air cooling from outside when driving in -40c is about as big as the heat coming from inside the car, so heat from the car can barely keep the doors above 0c.
> 
> Air isn't very efficient at transporting heat so im confident the heat dissipated inside the speaker will warm it up before the heat from the engine warms the cooling water who warms the heater so it can begin to warm the air in the cabin and then get into the doors and heat up the speaker, especially when your doors are sealed!


I don't know what you drive but new cars have less coolant circulating in the block and heads when the thermostat is closed along with most engines being entirely aluminum, and EGR is cooled by coolant pre thermostat which means exhaust gas helps to warm the coolant up quicker. Exhaust gas is hotter than normal at startup because timing is retarded to help light off the converters quicker which also helps heat the coolant quicker via EGR heat exchange to coolant. Couple that to an ATF cooler that's heating the coolant sitting in the radiator via warm ATF assuming the car is being driven this helps avoid cold water instantly cooling the engine back off when the thermostat is opened and reduces thermostat cycling. The heater core is obviously in the pre thermostat loop so it gets heat as quickly as possible. 

The result is new cars that start producing heat extremely quickly. Mine has usable heat in about 2 minutes on a freezing morning, even less time if I drive it right away. 

I'm still trying to understand how the VC that doesn't produce any appreciable heat (but we'll pretend it does for the sake of argument) heats up the spider and surround. Does all of this heat from the VC travel through the paper cone and heat the surround?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

WinWiz said:


> I just made very unscientific test:
> Started the car and the soundsystem at the same time. Crused at low speed with volume at 22. The temp. outside was just about 0 deg. C cause on some spots the water had frozen to ice.
> The car is parked outside so Iit was also 0 deg.C inside. The sound was somewhat compressed, but after about 4 minutes the sound quite quickly came alive, but I couldn't feel any heat in the car yet so I gently touched the surround of one my dynaudio 7.5" it was cold and stiff.
> I concentrated on the dyn. woofers in the front, so I kind of forgot to listen critically at the sub. After about 8 min I could clearly feel the temp rising inside the car.
> ...


The spider definitely affects T/S parameters if stiffer than normal. It's very possible.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

I definitely know my new Cadillac CTS has amazing heating capabilities and I thought my '03 Focus had decent heat fast especially compared to my former 1996 Saturn which took like 15 minutes to produce heat in subfreezing weather. And forget about those old iron block Chevies which was more like half an hour! 5 minutes idling the Caddy and you can definitely start feeling the heat, if you're driving yeah it's like a couple minutes.

But that's not pertinent to the self heating speaker question.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

qwertydude said:


> And forget about those old iron block Chevies which was more like half an hour!


Exactly why I dont want to drive home when I get off tonight.


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## rmoltis (Sep 4, 2012)

I drive a 96 ford aspire. And in cold weather from 0-30 degrees the tiny 1.3l engine takes 10 minutes to warm up to the cold mark which is 123 degrees. 
Which is just about when it starts to produce cabin heat.

And in this frigid weather I've noticed that the front speakers mid woofers won't play at all.
Every other speaker in the vehicle will play because they are isolated to the interior of the vehicle.

But with the layers of dynamat on the front door.
The magnet and voice coil are isolated to the outside weather due to weep holes in the doors and whatnot.

And what I've noticed is that it gets so cold that the gap in the magnet that houses the voice coil contracts so much.
That it actually pinches and holds the voice coil in place so that it can't move.
And if I turn the volume/wattage up high enough it will pop and crackle trying to move.
Granted I've only done this once or twice because I don't want to cause vc damage.

So it takes a good 20mins of driving(after the car has warmed up at idle, while keeping the climate control on recirculate)
Before the heat soaks through the door panel & dynamat layer through the door frame, and into the magnet. Before the front mid woofers even start playing any sound at all.

So I would say to some be careful trying to expedite the warming up process of your speakers by running power through them. You could possibly cause damage in the wrong circumstances.

I usually just keep the stereo off completely until I feel the entire cabin has transferred enough heat into all the surfaces sufficiently to warm them up. I.e. seats, ceiling, dash, floor, panels, etc.
There's a lot of cold surface in the vehicle that just soak up the heat as your car warms up.
So it takes longer than people think to get everything up to temp.


For example my fiancees 08 corolla gets to the cold mark 123* coolant temperature within 5 minutes of starting in -10 degrees weather. And it blows warm air.
But it takes another 15 minutes while driving after it gets up to 185* coolant temp.
For the heat soak in the cabin to saturate the surfaces before the ambient cabin air temperature actually starts rising.

Keep in mind I also keep the climate control on recirculate.
So that as the interior cabin temp rises.
The heater core draws in that warmed up air like a heat exchanger and it helps bring the warmed up air through the heater core up to a higher temp.

Than it would if it was drawing -10 degree air over the heater core from the outside trying to warm up. Which actually saps heat from the coolant off of the engine causing it to warm up slower and reaching a lower peak coolant temperature.


Also using dash vents pointing at you may make you "hot".
But it doesn't make your interior ambient air temp hot.
I run my floor vents only so that as the heat is blown down low. (Where all the cold air settles.)
It mixes with the cold air as it rises. (Since hot air rises)
And creates a more consistantly warmer cabin temperature.
That rises slowly over time. Until the entire cabin is warm.
The corolla blows damn hot air.
But when not pointed directly at you takes time to warm up the entire cabin.

Vs. Just feeling overly warm from the dash heat concentrating on your body only.

But yes the cold weather affects my front speakers in my aspire to the point where they won't even play until warmed up.
Which really sucks sometimes having to drive in silence.
But what can ya do ya know.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

BuickGN said:


> I don't know what you drive but new cars have less coolant circulating in the block and heads when the thermostat is closed along with most engines being entirely aluminum, and EGR is cooled by coolant pre thermostat which means exhaust gas helps to warm the coolant up quicker. Exhaust gas is hotter than normal at startup because timing is retarded to help light off the converters quicker which also helps heat the coolant quicker via EGR heat exchange to coolant. Couple that to an ATF cooler that's heating the coolant sitting in the radiator via warm ATF assuming the car is being driven this helps avoid cold water instantly cooling the engine back off when the thermostat is opened and reduces thermostat cycling. The heater core is obviously in the pre thermostat loop so it gets heat as quickly as possible.
> 
> The result is new cars that start producing heat extremely quickly. Mine has usable heat in about 2 minutes on a freezing morning, even less time if I drive it right away.
> 
> I'm still trying to understand how the VC that doesn't produce any appreciable heat (but we'll pretend it does for the sake of argument) heats up the spider and surround. Does all of this heat from the VC travel through the paper cone and heat the surround?


I dont know whats going on or why but I do know that a speaker produces heat, in fact I have just read that a bass driver wasting less than 99% of the supplied energy is considered very efficient, about 95 db/w or there about.
I don't think my dyn. 17w75 has paper cones?

I also know that far from all new cars gets warm in 2 minutes. New engines are designed to be as energy efficient as possible and this also minimizes the energy wasted as heat. In fact new Diesel engines are so energy efficient that diesel cars now usually have an extra electric heater as standard. But they are usually so small that they have a hard time keeping up in cold weather.

An old V8 burning lots of fuel will of course get hot a lot faster than a new energy efficient car like the vw up.

I drive a old but very reliable 1986 mazda 323 1.5 also know as ford laser and mazda protege in other parts of the world, and I love it 
Before the mazda I had a new 2007 vw golf+ 2.0 tdi dsg with lots of extras incl upgraded "10 way" sound system, but it was very unreliable and too expensive in repairs.
The Golf had an extra electric heater but could idle for an hour without producing heat enough to warm the cabin!
In normal danish winter it would take about 30km to get the engine semi hot.
The Peugeot 206 1.4 hdi I had before the golf was also like this.

After I changed the water thermostat my beloved old mazda get warm fairly quick. The sealed doors, c-pillars and the IB in the back helps to keep the heat inside the cabin.
It has also helped a lot lowing the noise inside the car so with the small customizations I have done (pic will come when it's complete) the old mazda is really perfect for me and the dog.

But in minus 40 deg. c. I am pretty sure most cars would have trouble even starting, and i'm also pretty sure most cars would not be able to keep the cabin hot in -40 C....

I actually enjoy driving and being in my car so much that I think I spend about half my awake time in the car!
Its expensive in fuel so I often park in the woods enjoying the sweet fruits of my hard diy work with the engine turned off.
My diy 3 way really is a lot better than vw's expensive "10 way" :laugh:
My dog likes to dig after mice while I listen to music thats also why I don't want a high power system that would drain my batteries way to fast!


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

When I got to my car today I noticed that rainwater had ran through the dyn. 17w75 speaker in my driver side front door 
-So its very possible that its was more or less full of frozen water when I did my small test the other night.

Now making some kind of gutters, to mount above the speakers inside the door, to keep the water from running into my precious dyns are on top of my to-do list!


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

Part of new cars being energy efficient and green is the fact that they both have very little heat capacity in the engine by design AND tend to run at higher operating temperatures. The higher the temperature you can run an engine the more thermally efficient (adiabatic) it can be since you lose less heat through conduction through the engine block. There are of course limits as oil can't run at too high a temperature without oxidizing and the differing metals in engines can only tolerate so much a difference in temperatures before tolerance get too loose or tight or metal itself can start galling and seizing at high temperatures.

So even though yes they do produce less heat overall this doesn't mean you get less heat out of the heater. In fact it means you get heat faster since less heat capacity means less energy wasted getting the engine fully up to operating temperature.

And if you calculate out the ultimate thermal efficiency. Even though most engines now are twice as efficient as older engines, it doesn't mean they produce half the heat. In fact going from about 15% to 30% efficiency still means you're only reducing heat output from 85% down to 70%. That means overall just about a 20% reduction in total available heat. But again lowering the heat capacity in the engine means you'll get up to temperature faster.

This combination of running at higher temperatures and having less heat capacity means they were designed to get to operating temperature as quickly as possible. That's one among many design features meant to make them more efficient. Fast heating capability is just a side effect of this.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

qwertydude said:


> Part of new cars being energy efficient and green is the fact that they both have very little heat capacity in the engine by design AND tend to run at higher operating temperatures. The higher the temperature you can run an engine the more thermally efficient (adiabatic) it can be since you lose less heat through conduction through the engine block. There are of course limits as oil can't run at too high a temperature without oxidizing and the differing metals in engines can only tolerate so much a difference in temperatures before tolerance get too loose or tight or metal itself can start galling and seizing at high temperatures.
> 
> So even though yes they do produce less heat overall this doesn't mean you get less heat out of the heater. In fact it means you get heat faster since less heat capacity means less energy wasted getting the engine fully up to operating temperature.
> 
> ...


Well my experience with modern diesel engines are a lot different, when idle they produce too little heat to warm up the cabin, even if idling for an hour or more. Im also pretty sure the user manual to my golf said that about 50 km of driving was required to reach optimal engine temp/fuel efficiency!

Of Course any car old or new will get hot very quickly if you drive it hard, but if you drive like me and my mom everything takes time


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

WinWiz said:


> Well my experience with modern diesel engines are a lot different, when idle they produce too little heat to warm up the cabin, even if idling for an hour or more. Im also pretty sure the user manual to my golf said that about 50 km of driving was required to reach optimal engine temp/fuel efficiency!
> 
> Of Course any car old or new will get hot very quickly if you drive it hard, but if you drive like me and my mom everything takes time


Please don't attempt to talk cars, you fail miserably. There are very simple reasons why diesels transfer less heat into the cooling system. Think thermal efficiency. 

About your other statements, the typical old V8 warms up much slower than today's 4 and 6 cylinders. Adding lots of fuel will make it warm up slower.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

BuickGN said:


> Please don't attempt to talk cars, you fail miserably. There are very simple reasons why diesels transfer less heat into the cooling system. Think thermal efficiency.
> 
> About your other statements, the typical old V8 warms up much slower than today's 4 and 6 cylinders. Adding lots of fuel will make it warm up slower.


Please dont tell me what i'm allowed to talk about. I love you 2


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

50km? Ya right. I had a diesel. 10 minutes in thr driveway and it was warm. Diesel produce alot more heat than gas

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

minbari said:


> 50km? Ya right. I had a diesel. 10 minutes in thr driveway and it was warm. Diesel produce alot more heat than gas
> 
> sent from my phone using digital farts


Well maybe it was like 90% eff. after 20 Km and 99% after 30 Km... But diesel generally produce LESS heat! This is also one of the reasons diesel engines generally last longer.
Sure all combustion engines gets hot very quick if you drive like you are in a hurry...
But the high mile/gallon is the main reason why about half of all new cars sold in EU are diesels, so diesel drivers tend to try and maximize their fuel economy by driving gently.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

A high efficiency gas or Diesel engine puts less heat into the cooling system and out the exhaust. More energy is turned into torque.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

WinWiz said:


> Well maybe it was like 90% eff. after 20 Km and 99% after 30 Km... But diesel generally produce LESS heat! This is also one of the reasons diesel engines generally last longer.
> Sure all combustion engines gets hot very quick if you drive like you are in a hurry...
> But the high mile/gallon is the main reason why about half of all new cars sold in EU are diesels, so diesel drivers tend to try and maximize their fuel economy by driving gently.


That's actually not the reason diesels last longer. If you read about my post about engine thermal efficiency you'd see even a diesel which at best is only about 15% more efficient than the best gasoline has to offer now you'd see that the heat a direct injected gas engine rejects into the cooling system is pretty comparable to a diesel when you take into account that as thermal efficiencies go ultimately if you run the numbers the amount of heat a diesel rejects into the cooling system is only about 10% more than the best gasoline engines do now.

Perhaps the reason why diesels warm up so slowly compared to gas engines is the same reason why I said old school Chevy iron blocks take so long to produce heat.

The primary reason for diesel's durability is they have to be overbuilt to a much greater degree than gasoline engines. Diesels have such high compression and the characteristic diesel clatter is actually a type of high pressure knocking. Both the high compression and knocking require engines to be built much tougher which is the reason why diesel engines are still heavier iron blocks and with iron block comes the same slow warm up times.

For example the Volkswagon TDI's still use iron blocks, same with the GM diesels like in the upcoming Cruze diesel. This isn't because it's just sticking to old methods. You need the strength of solid steel to withstand the compressive and vibrational forces that would simply crack an aluminum block.

The thing to take from this is you can't judge an engine's efficiency by its heater output.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Since we're talking engines now. Why does my engine run 10°C cooler when I'm using ethanol instead of gasoline? Just seem weird to me.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

qwertydude said:


> That's actually not the reason diesels last longer. If you read about my post about engine thermal efficiency you'd see even a diesel which at best is only about 15% more efficient than the best gasoline has to offer now you'd see that the heat a direct injected gas engine rejects into the cooling system is pretty comparable to a diesel when you take into account that as thermal efficiencies go ultimately if you run the numbers the amount of heat a diesel rejects into the cooling system is only about 10% more than the best gasoline engines do now.
> 
> Perhaps the reason why diesels warm up so slowly compared to gas engines is the same reason why I said old school Chevy iron blocks take so long to produce heat.
> 
> ...


So high compression equal long life and many miles then? 
Ok if you say so...
Or is it cause of steel blocks? My lovely old mazda is all steel so is it also gonna last 500.000 - 1 mil. Km?
You do know the trend in new diesel engines are now all aluminum blocks right? Even the years old high power vw V-10 TDI is all alu.
I know GM is getting better but in my book they are know for using old tech...
Maybe you can't judge an engines eff. by its heater output, but high eff. engines just can't "afford" to waste a lot on energy as heat, so there is a connection!

I have owned 2 different high efficiently diesel cars and both did not produce enough heat to warm up the cabin when started outside in frost and left idling. 
I have also driven a new mercedes bluetec diesel and with the webasto oil burner turned off it also got very cold in the winter, when driving eco with lots of stops. 
I remember once I forgot I had left the 1.4 HDI running and after about an hour there were still frost on some parts of the windscreen! Only the parts immediately above the heat vents was defrosted.
According to my peugeot dealer this is normal. New cars you simply has to drive to get them warm.

This is my pers. experience and if anyone don't believe me I really dont care. But tell me why would I make up such a claim?


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

Ethanol has both a lower energy content and higher equivalent octane than gas so it tends to burn cooler and also since you're injecting more fuel because of the lower energy content you also have more evaporative cooling of the intake charge.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Since we're talking engines now. Why does my engine run 10°C cooler when I'm using ethanol instead of gasoline? Just seem weird to me.
> 
> Ethanol engine works at less temperature than petrol engine of same horsepower, maybe its because the energy in ethanol is lower so the fuel/air ratio is richer I guess?


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

WinWiz said:


> So high compression equal long life and many miles then?
> Ok if you say so...
> Or is it cause of steel blocks? My lovely old mazda is all steel so is it also gonna last 500.000 - 1 mil. Km?
> You do know the trend in new diesel engines are now all aluminum blocks right? Even the years old high power vw V-10 TDI is all alu.
> ...


Engine design has something to do why maybe an OLD Mazda iron block gasoline engine might not outlast a NEW iron block diesel. But take a look at long haul diesel trucks. Their engines are severely overbuilt and they're expected to go a million miles between rebuilds.

The trend positively ISN'T aluminum block diesels. You're giving an exotic car engine of limited production, a diesel V10, as an example of a trend? Please. Oh yeah it's now defunct and no longer offered. Perhaps explained by the numerous threads on VW forums concerned about reliability issues and durability problems. The current VW V8 by the way is back to iron block.

Detailed: VW

This is what's currently in the popular Volkswagon TDI's read it. IRON block. The heating issue with diesels primarily is a fact due to the steel. Steel is a poor conductor of heat therefore it's going to be harder to send heat to the heater core because of that. It also causes longer warm up times which explains the weak heating. Diesels just have poor heating, but it's not due to diesels amazing thermal efficiency, it's due to iron block engine's terrible thermal conductivity. I suppose you've never had the opportunity to drive an old chevrolet iron block V8 poor efficiency and and yet still poor heating due to the fact that it's an iron block. Volkswagon deals with that now in their diesels by using the hotter exhaust gasses diesels generate to supplement the heat from the cooling system.

As for GM using "old tech" they use some old tech. The ones that work. They also make the fastest production sedan to lap the Nurburgring? Cadillac CTS-V, yeah and its engine uses pushrods, so what? Still beats the pants off of every other sedan. Did you know the LS series engines have some of the lowest center of gravities of any engine design around? Thank the pushrods for that.

Oh yeah who does Ferrari lease their magnetic ride control from? Yeah GM. Who made the first true series hybrid car? Chevrolet Volt. Who made the first production electric car? GM EV-1.

You really should just stop trying to talk car tech. Because you're getting it all wrong.


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## WinWiz (Sep 25, 2013)

Just because you have another opinion doesn't make it right to tell me not to talk about cars. Who do you think you are ?

I feel this is waste of my time, but at least you seem to have accepted that diesels have amazing thermal efficiency and poor heating....
Im not saying the V10 is normal, but its a high power all alu TDI, so steel is not necessary to handle the high compression in a modern diesel, besides other lighter and stronger materials exists so its a matter of cost, just ask GM 

Do you drive a GM or work for GM? Cause you sure seem eager to prove GM is the best.
I did say they have approved but for many many years they sold old 8valve pushrods not because it was the best compared to the competing japanese 16v dohc designs but because their own new dohc designs sucked! 
I don't forget that just because the CTS-V maybe the fastest sedan on the Ring! What a marketing joke. Anyone interested in Ring lap times wants a real sportscar not an ugly cadillac sedan.

If the dif. heat output its in fact due to the steel then all old engines should be slow at heating up and all new alu block should be quick.
But this as said is not my experience when driving economically @18+km/L or idling, the energy wasted as heat is so small. My 1.4 HDI was alu the TDI was steel.

Regarding the high mileage of diesel trucks, I believe the more power per liter an engine produces the faster it will typically wear.

I did look at the article you linked and it states: iron block and aluminum head, and DOHC configuration will carry over from the old engine, so its not a brand new design.
Funny it also mentions the problem with diesels low heat in winter.

Im am aware the new EU norms have strict cold start emission requirements, and manufacturers therefore use ECU tricks like raising the idle to get the cat. heat up as fast as possible, but saying all modern cars heat quick is not accurate if you also think about all the modern diesel cars driving in EU.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

I haven't accepted that diesels have amazing thermal efficiency I NEVER said that because they really don't. I'm saying they have incrementally better thermal efficiency and when taken overall because of the heavier architecture they can return relatively similar mpg to the newer gasoline engines. This is evidenced by comparing engines with similar hp and their mpg rating.

And you have a bad habit of not reading my carefully worded posts. I didn't even say all modern cars heat quickly. I said new aluminum engined cars heat quickly. And it's true compared to older cars and iron blocked cars new aluminum blocked cars will heat up very quickly. You keep trying to steer this to YOUR diesel experience which is very limited in scope. Also have you also driven older diesel cars? Compare their warm up to your newer diesels. I gurantee you the newer ones warm up quicker than the older ones. I know because I had an old VW Rabbit and an old Mercedes diesel and they definitely were slow to warm up. But just the same as an old iron block chevy. All iron blocks will heat up slowly but newer ones will still warm up faster than older ones. And you still can't get it through your head that it's the iron block that's causing the poor heating NOT the diesel technology. Iron block engines like the old gasoline chevy v8's also had poor heating.

If you still need a simpler example get a cast iron pan and an aluminum pan. Crack an egg in each and put it on your stove and see which one cooks faster. I'll give you a hint it's the aluminum.

And claiming that the new engine isn't a brand new design because it carries over element from the old. Using your analogy then no engines using the same block and cylinder design are new. Volkwagon are carrying over proven design elements, but the castings are all new. None of the main moving parts from the old engine will fit the new engine. That must mean too that Porshe engines haven't had a new engine design since the 1980's because they used the same all aluminum boxer engine architecture. Lazy Porsche.

The Volkswagon 2.0 TDi has 140 hp and gets 30 mpg city and 42 mpg hwy. Compare this to say a Ford Focus 2.0 liter engine. Direct injected but spark ignition and gasoline. 160 hp and 27 mpg city and 38 highway. It's still behind the diesel but it's making more hp. Bring up the newer 3 cylinder 1.0 liter Ecoboost which I know is available in Europe and you can definitely equal the mpg of that Volkswagon. And you can also expect better heating out of those small engines too. So diesel may have had an efficiency advantage for the longest time but gasoline engines have now caught up to the efficiency of diesels.

Consider it like a carnot efficiency and it'll make more sense you can only extract so much thermal efficiency out of a thermal cycle. Carnot efficiency maxes out at about 40% which means at least 60% of your energy goes out at heat. Diesels at best can get to 35% but those are only the giant traction and boat engines designed to run at optimal RPM efficiency only. Car diesels achieve about 35% because they need to be able to operate at various RPM's and loads. Gasoline car engines now will do 30%. None of those engines have amazing thermal efficiencies period because thermal efficiency tops off at 40% period.

I don't work for GM but as an actual aerospace engineer and avid car enthusiast I recognize good technology and bad technology. I'll give credit where it's due and not unnecessarily piss on a brand just because I harbor a beef with it. And styling is subjective. You may not like Cadillacs but many people the world over buy them. I'd certainly take my Cadillac any day over a BMW. Better performance, better interior, and better long term reliability. BMW's are notorious for breaking down right after the warranty expires.

If I told you BMW wins a lot of those Ring lap times are you going to now say don't buy BMW because they're just sport car wannabe's? Or is it impressive that the M cars can be both good luxury cars and good sport cars? And yes people buy them. And Cadillac will still wipe the ring with them and still has better interiors and luxury features.

If you want me to list what dissapoints me with GM I will. I'll also put a list that's even longer on BMW and Volkswagen because those are brands too known as being unreliable in the long term. Honda's had its share of problems. Toyota? Not immune to the biggest and costliest recall on record. Ford? Firestone ring a bell? And Peugot that's the butt of jokes the world over.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

If cold, let the speakers warm up just like you would let your engine warm up. If you go straight blasting your speakers when its -40* then you're asking for trouble just like if you go drag race your car on a -40* cold engine. If it's super cold out and your speakers are still stock from some ungodly reason, blast them to kingdom come until they blow, then replace them with some great speakers attached to awesome amplifiers! 

("Blame it on someone else nation" Disclaimer: Don't blow your speakers for no reason... that was a joke.)

As for diesels, I have yet to drive or own a gasoline vehicle that achieved its EPA mileage. I have owned/driven diesels (VW TDI, BMW 120d in Germany) that, even with spirited driving, exceeded the EPA mileage estimates (well... the 120d wasn't an EPA estimate but whatever it was in Germany). VW TDI's consistently exceed theoretical range on a tank of fuel... all the damn time.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Just skimmed through not sure how this got to diesels warming up but from what i renember its the iron blocks iron sleeves that conduct less heat tham aluminium, obviously aluminium sleeves would blow up (oval) with that compression and "detonation"effect not actual detonation but still has huge impact on block so iron needed. I could be wrong but ive never built a diesel so never payed much interest, high revving petrols more my thing , also diesels dont need to rev as high they make peak power less than 2-3k normally so low revs may help them last decades


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

a warm engine is best. 

therefore, an inductive coupling between the oil pan and a coil element that lifts from the ground, and magnetically attaches to the pan.

run on both a timer and a remote, so you can pre-heat your block before starting out.

I'd make one like that if I had to get in a cold car half the year, fortunately I live almost in the Gulf of Mexico where winter lasts about 3.5 months and I see freezing temps 10 days a year, maybe.

seems like something they probably already have out, you'd need inductive coupling so you don't have to bend down and connect an electric cord in the cold all the time, the trick is just to put the car over the same spot each time. That's easy enough with a track and tire bump, and a sensor to detach and lower the mechanism would automatically engage by remote or upon car movement by gyro, ie, sitting in the car would do it.


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