# Seeking advice. Legatia L3SE?



## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

Hello all, I haven't been on the forum much lately but I was hoping to gather some opinions on an upgrade I'm considering.

Here is my current setup if anybody cares. I am running a 2-way active front stage with the JBL MS-8 processor.
'03 Toyota Corolla
Kenwood Excelon 6.5" component speakers (mids in doors and tweets in sails)
Infinity Kappa Four amp powering the Kenwood Excelon 6.5" component speakers
2X JL Audio 10W6-V2 subwoofers in vented enclosure
2X Infinity 1600a subwoofer amplifiers powering the JL Audio 10W6-V2 subwoofers.

I am taking a close look at the Hybrid Audio Legatia L3SE full range 3.7" driver and maybe the Hybrid Audio L6SE or L6v2 mid-woofer. I was thinking that if the L3SE can really negate the need for a tweeter altogether, it will minimize the install issues that I would have of putting the 3.5" along with a tweeter in the A-pillars. This would also have the benefit of allowing me to keep my Infinity Kappa Four amplifier for front stage duty, since I only would need four channels.

I am wondering if I should bother with a center channel at all. The car would be fairly simple to integrate a center channel into with the spacious dash, but I am hoping that with well-placed Legatia L3SE's running active with the JBL MS-8, imaging should be pretty awesome without a center channel.

Does anybody have any thoughts on the Legatia L6SE vs the Legatia L6v2 for mid-bass? If used in conjunction with L3SE, then which would be a more logical choice? This question is touched upon here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/120247-l6v2-vs-l6se.html

Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated, thanks!


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

I cannot comment on the midbass drivers because I have no experience with them. However, you are absolutely correct and the L3SE can be used without a tweeter. I have them in my car, and one of my favorite cars has them too. When installed and tuned well, the center image can be rock solid, yes.

For center channel, the MS-8 makes tuning very simple and it would be easy to integrate into your system. Some people love center channels, some people hate it. That is something only you can decide based on your preference. One easy way to test is to place a wideband speaker (one of your L3SE would be great before you install them) on the dash somewhere near the center and "enclose" the rear half of it with towels. Then run some sweeps with the MS-8 and see what it sounds like. This simple and non-invasive test should be close enough to give you an idea of what to expect.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I don't recommend using a limited low end driver in an enclosure-less situation as an evaluation for how well a center channel setup performs. The MS-8 requires that the center play down to at least 200Hz. An infinite baffle type driver in a towel is barely going to get to even that less then optimum high pass.

You're _much_ better off finding yourself a small home bookshelf speaker that can dig into the low 100 Hz's and mounting it firing dead center toward the rear of the vehicle. Powering it off the MS-8 should be fine for evaluation purposes.

Also, to the OP, the main advantage of a center is to allow a good image from more than one seat at a time, and to also help compensate if the left and right mounting location are very poor. If none of the above applies to you, then you should be just as happy with a typical stereo setup.


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## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks for the input, guys. 
If I do decide to go without a center and put the L3SE in the A pillars with no tweets, do you have any enclosure recommendations?
This would be my first mid-range (or full-range) experience, and I'm worried if I don't do it right the first time, it is going to be a problem trying to get it right. 
What I have gathered so far is that it would be wise to be wary of the back-wave so it doesn't bleed through the cone. Also, I figure it needs to be in infinite baffle in effect. 
It seems like I would want to high-pass them at no less than 200 Hz.
I am going to do some more research.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

diynube said:


> Thanks for the input, guys.
> If I do decide to go without a center and put the L3SE in the A pillars with no tweets, do you have any enclosure recommendations?
> This would be my first mid-range (or full-range) experience, and I'm worried if I don't do it right the first time, it is going to be a problem trying to get it right.
> What I have gathered so far is that it would be wise to be wary of the back-wave so it doesn't bleed through the cone. Also, I figure it needs to be in infinite baffle in effect.
> ...


That speaker works best if you build a solid sealed off baffle and vent it with as big a passage as you can into somewhere that that backwave energy will not come back into the listening space. IE vent it into the dash somewhere along the pillar bottom and make sure that dash area is sealed off and treated somewhat.

1.7L is optimal, but it will still work in as little as 1L of internal net volume.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Enclosure Recommendations

The mechanical and electrical parameters of the Legatia SE midrange and midbass drivers are
amenable to a variety of different installations and speaker locations. In a typical vehicular
installation, Hybrid Audio Technologies recommends that the Legatia SE drivers be placed in an
“infinitely large” enclosure, which is more notably known as “infinite baffle.” Small sealed enclosures
are not needed to be constructed, nor are typically recommended in most circumstances for any of
the Legatia SE range of products (there are some minor exceptions, based upon application,
intended use, power handling, and etc., please contact us for details). Hybrid Audio has also had
great success incorporating the Legatia SE midrange and midbass drivers in dipole configuration
(detailed below), transmission lines, and in larger vented enclosures.

In a typical installation, Legatia SE midrange and midbass products should be mounted with
unrestricted access to airspace to ensure the speaker’s ability to effectively reproduce its wide
frequency bandwidth. The reason why the speaker was designed in this way is highly empirical.
When a speaker is mounted in a small closed box, it radiates as much energy forward of the cone as
it does rearward of the cone. All speaker cones and dust caps (diaphragms) are a weak sound
barrier at best, and the result of the high amount of energy being “pushed” into a small enclosure is
the energy transmitting through to the outside of the cone (an additive phenomenon to the incidental
wave). It is conjectured that this effect is most notable in the low hundreds of Hz region, where
acoustical stuffing materials are ineffective and the internal dimensions are not small enough for the
internal air volume to act as a pure compliance. Consequently, Hybrid Audio has designed this
speaker to work well without an enclosure, and as such, should not be significantly prone to
enclosure back-pressure and sound coloration when placed infinitely baffled. The “infinitely large”
enclosure, per se, improves spectral response and power response variation between high and low
frequencies. And in the case where an infinite baffle operation is difficult or impossible to achieve in
your car’s environment, we highly suggest the use of acoustic resistors (aperiodic membranes or
trade name Variovents®) in sealed enclosures to help dissipate the backwave energy. If you
absolutely must use a sealed enclosure, we recommend that you contact us for details and
assistance in targeting a sealed enclosure volume applicable for your intended purpose. In all cases,
the use of loosely-packed fibrous damping materials, such as fiberglass, Dacron, or long-fiber wool will also significantly improve the final installation, no matter what type of baffle and enclosure
configuration is chosen.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

If possible i recommend running them SEMI- active with a tweeter and a filter on the same channel. for me even on axis the absence of a tweeter was noticeable in a lot of types of music. but definately try it and see if it suits your tastes...


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## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks for the input. I will see what it takes to vent these into the dash from the A-pillars. Should I try a horn shape or some sort of tube shape into the dash?

To tweet or not to tweet, that is the question. To be honest, I can't hear above 16kHz. 
Hehe, I probably wouldn't live with myself using a filter on L3SE, my inner obsession would want me to get a 6-channel amp and go active if I were to install a tweet.

Also, I do already have the tweets from the Kenwood Excelon speakers in the sails. I could remove them (since I think that tweets that far from the mids would be a poor decision) and use them in conjunction with the L3SE. I would probably be tempted to get Legatia tweets, but then cost is really climbing. I have to say that the Excelon tweets are pretty good to my ears.

What is the L3SE is lacking in the high-end? Impact, detail? I am not finding a whole lot of info on these speakers, so opinions are welcome.

Thanks again!


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Should be on axis and you might have to increase the upper frequencies a bit, but you're good to go with no tweeter. Cymbals might loose a bit of crash unless you up the EQ a bit in that area or install off axis.


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## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

sirbOOm said:


> Should be on axis and you might have to increase the upper frequencies a bit, but you're good to go with no tweeter. Cymbals might loose a bit of crash unless you up the EQ a bit in that area or install off axis.


Yeah, I was planning on having the speakers close to on-axis as possible. Do you think the MS-8 will take care of the EQ enough not to lose impact on cymbals?


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

I was not able to run the L3SE drivers without tweeters. Sounded very good but no comparison to having a tweeter. 
You can easily add a tweeter on the same channel- just find one that has the same sensitivity and add a capacitor on the tweeter to act as a passive crossover. i crossed my tweeter at 8Khz and this worked out great.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

The ms8 can adjust automatically, and manually (to a point). That said, my hat's can run tweeterless as well. I prefer to have, and use tweeters.


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## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

Hm, so it would seem that I could either use the tweeters from the Kenwood Excelon or maybe just go with a 3 way component set and forget the Legatias. 
OR, maybe get a 3-way Legatia setup going. I can see that this could start costing me. 

Now I'm just thinking of some Hertz or Audison speakers instead, my mind is scattered. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

I'm really surprised to see so many who prefer to run the L3SE with tweeters. There is nothing wrong with that, I don't mean to argue against it. However there I've heard many outstanding builds that do not use tweeters, and run the L3SE for the top six octaves. The key is to aim very close to on axis and this will not work aiming across the dash at eachother. If you feel there is not enough sizzle, then use the MS-8's eq to mold the sound however you like.

And if none of that turns out the way you like it, add the tweeters you already have and power them with by the MS8 to see if the tweeters are more to your taste. Seems hard to go wrong with all the options you have available. At some point, you just have to experiment and keep an open mind


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

I think using the Excelon tweeters will be fine so long as you have enough amp channels and processing to filter to that tweeter only the highest end of the range. If you change your mind later and what to go with a better tweeter, that's fine, but I figure you'll be giving this tweeter the 10K hz + duty because the Legatia can deal with the range below that like butter.


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## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

I almost just want to do a spendy 3-way Audison Thesis install with a new compact and spendy 6-channel amp and compact new sub amp (to replace the existing amps that won't fit when I redo the install because I don't like where the existing stuff is located. ) 
Go big or go home? I just don't think I could feel right about it if I don't nail it on the next attempt. The existing sound really isn't that bad. I will try to clear my head and see what I can figure out. 
Thanks for all the help guys. As far as the L3SE goes, I would want to demo before, but there isn't a dealer nearby. I can't demo the Thesis either, but I am not sure that you can go wrong. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## DATCAT (Aug 3, 2009)

I am surprised by the number of people saying they prefer a tweeter with the L3se. I didn't believe I could go tweeterless until I tried it and I was quite impressed. My first tweeterless was with L4se running the MS8 and external amps. I mounted them in a-pillars. I used a center Chanel. Left, Right and center were all mostly on axis. I experimented with tweeter placement but after several days of trying, I couldn't make a tweeter sound better.



















I was running the MS8 in the 7.1 surround mode. Tonality and width was really good but depth suffered. It sounded as if everyone was playing sitting on my dash. Scott from Hybrid convinced me to switch to the new L3se tweeterless in sail panel and go to stereo (2 Chanel). I mounted aiming the new drivers toward my sunroof controls about 8" back from the windshield. Imaging is much better. Not quite as wide but depth is good. I just finished this project and I am still tuning but so far I am very impressed and hope to win IASCA PRO/Am in October.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm very sure these are the super tweets that come with AP fullrange. They don't need crossover, inexpensive, and hardly noticeable. They did add a bit of "air" to mine. 

http://www.taket.jp/about6/about6.html


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## dgr932 (Mar 31, 2011)

I have been running my l3se tweeter less for about 90 days. I am going to be honest. I think should have spent more time experimenting with the passenger side to better position it for the drivers ears. Based off my experience so far i would say if one seat listening is your goal. Then l3se tweeterless is awesome, but if driver seat and passenger seat are important i would then add tweeters. I am happy without the tweeters. 100% accuracy when aiming them is a must or you will miss you tweeters. Final vote i dont miss the tweeters because widebanders play live music so much better. I am a live concert sound kind of guy.


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## diynube (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the help guys, I appreciate the detailed responses and it is nice to see different opinions. Also, I love the pics.
In the end, I decided to go with a Hertz Mille MLK 3 PA. I feel like it is hard to go wrong with these speakers, although they are indeed spendy.
I am getting another Kappa Four amp so I will have two Kappa Four amps dedicated to the front stage.
One amp for the left and one for the right. I was wondering if you guys think I should bridge the rear channels of each amp for the mid-bass drivers.
I think it would be pretty sweet.


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## BKLYNG (Aug 6, 2014)

i have the 80prs hat imagines tweet in sail panel midbass in bottom of door i want to run the hat L3SE im running active the 80prs dont have the feq for the l3se how can i run them do i need another DSP and if so which 1 and what will be the feq and slopes


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## DATCAT (Aug 3, 2009)

BKLYNG said:


> i have the 80prs hat imagines tweet in sail panel midbass in bottom of door i want to run the hat L3SE im running active the 80prs dont have the feq for the l3se how can i run them do i need another DSP and if so which 1 and what will be the feq and slopes


If you install the L3SE close to the sail panel where the tweet is (such as the A pillar or high in the door) you can group them together. Set them up with a high pass and use a capacitor on the tweet to high pass it. As long as they are mounted within a few inches of each other you won't notice much difference in time alignment or imaging. The closer you can mount them together the better in this type install. My current install has L3SE flangeless in the sail and a L1 tweet about 1" below it in the door. This setup has some great qualities but as always has some trade offs.


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