# Peerless HDS Exclusive vs Nomex vs PPB



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hi,

This is my current set-up:
Peerless 12" XXLS with 2 10" XLS passive radiators in the back
1 Soundstream SS8 in a sealed box at the bothom of each door (it's a 3-door hatch, so 1 pair)
1 pair of DLS Iridium 6i midbasses in very small boxes with a variovent breathing in the doors, on the doors
I sold my Dynaudio MD100 tweeters and I'm considering Peerless HDS tweeters.

Now, since it's a bit odd to use small subwoofers as kickwoofers and midbass drivers as mids, I'm planning to sell my DLS Iridiums, put the SS8's between my vintage collection, and buying some more appropriate Peerless HDS drivers, but there is the Exclusive, Nomex and PPB range, and I have no idea what to choose...

For the midbasses, these are the options I'm doubting between:
- Peerless HDS 182 (850439)**
- Peerless HDS Nomex 205 (830869)
- Peerless HDS Exclusive 205 (830884)
- Peerless HDS PPB 205 (830868)

For the mids, these are the options I'm doubting between:
- Peerless HDS Nomex 106 (shielded) (830872)
- Peerless HDS PPB 106 (shielded) (830854)
- Peerless HDS Nomex 134 (832873)
- Peerless HDS PPB 134 (830860)
- Peerless HDS Exclusive 152 (831882)
- Peerless SDS THP 134 (830656)**

The options marked with ** are on the website of the shop where I buy my stuff, but not in stock, and not on the tymphany website anymore, so it's possible these options aren't available anymore.

The midbasses will be powered by a Genesis Dual Mono, the mids by 2 channels of a Genesis Four Channel. Since all of these drivers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohm, that means the midbasses will get about 85W and the mids about 50W. 

For your information, the sub is powered by a bridged Genesis Stereo 100 which delivers about 290W, the tweeters will be powered by the other two channels of the Four Channel. It's not the intention of building a loud system, but it has to sound clear and dynamic.

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Candisa,

Could we know some of your favorite music, too ?  

would you be interested in a article on different cone materials ?

They will give you an idea of the properties 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26421&highlight=cone+material+sound


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Music, well, I don't listen to techno, r&b, the stuff they call hiphop nowadays, rap...
I do listen to oldskool hardrock (ozzy/black sabbath, judas priest, King Diamond, ac/dc, iron maiden, older metallica songs...), gothic rock, electro and new wave (Nightwish when Tarja was still the singer, less-commercial Evanescence songs, Epica, Lacrimosa, Angtoria, Leaves' Eyes, Anne Clark...), good old classics (Led Zeppelin, Sade...), but also now and then some classical (mozart, bach...) or some ambience music (catchy songs with funny lyrics everybody 'sings' when they're drunk )...

I like a laid-back, but still detailed sound. Long time ago, I had a Focal Polyglass set on Kenwood amps, wich I liked pretty well, but missed a bit detail. Later I bought Steg QMos amps, and on that same Polyglass set, it sounded detailed but waaaaay to screemy for me.

I like midbass that sounds tight and fast enough to really hear the song like it supposed to sound, but with enough 'oumph' to blow a little dust out of my jeans and to have some fullness.
I like mid that is detailed, without sounding thin or dry. It has to be there without having too much authority.

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Candisa,

I like the looks of this one










peerless HDS-182

General description 
A high End mid-woofer with rigid aerodynamic cast aluminium basket profile and ventilated spider. The cast basket provides the necessary sturdy base for the magnet structure and suspension and allows for long excursion of the cone. The spider is ventilated to achieve the lowest possible compression and to allow air to flow freely to create a cooling effect for the voice coil. The design of the basket front allows for very slim box designs and the edges are chamfered to re-duce the necessary amount of counter sinking. The three or five layer sandwich cone improves accuracy and consistency of sound reproduction over the entire frequency range, creating a more "musical" driver. 

This one too
http://www.tymphany.com/files/products/pdf/831882.pdf


This High Definition Sound (HDS) line of products push the
performance limits of midbass audio transducers in a range of
sizes - from the standard 205mm (8-inch) model, down to the
very small 106mm (4-inch) model. Feature-rich and utilizing
copper for the lowest distortion possible, the high-end HDS
Exclusive Series takes maximum advantage of over 80 years of
R&D experience to help systems designers build the world's best
audio products.
Driver Highlights: Nomex diaphragm, 26 mm coil, AL, CU,
Phaseplug
Go to Architecture Notes









http://www.riviera-acoustics.com/ca...p?products_id=805&cPath=22_76_113&language=en


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hmmm, I hoped it weren't these 2. 
The chances that the HDS-182 is still available, is very very small, and it's also a smaller midbass than the 205's. I'm planning to use de midbass woofers between 40-45 and 200-300Hz.

What if I narrowed the options, and had to choose between the HDS Nomex 205 and HDS PPB 205? The curves seem to be pretty much the same, the moving mass is pretty much the same, the Nomex has a lower resonance frequency (30, versus 32.5 of the PPB) and a lower Qts (0.29 versus 0.40), the Nomex is some sort of paper cone, the PPB is a polypropylene cone...

The 152 exclusive is an option, but it's a bit more expensive than the others in the row, and also the biggest one in the row, the Peerless HDS tweeter can go very low, so frequency responce shouldn't give problems, but aiming them correctly is harder with a bigger driver. The efficiency of the 106's is a bit low (didn't give much attention to that when I started this topic), so when I have to choose between the 134's, it's again a question of paper versus polypropylene...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I have been very happy with polypropylene mids.

If you can get the one you mentioned at a good price, I would say go for it


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Okay, so for the midrange, the 'best' choice seems to be the Peerless HDS PPB 134. 

Now for the midbass woofers. I narrowed the choice between the Peerless HDS Nomex 205 and the Peerless HDS PPB 205. 

The Exclusives seem to be pretty much the same as the Nomexes (same cone material), but with a phase plug. I don't see why a midbasswoofer should have a phase plug, and the Exclusives are a bit more expensive than the Nomexes or PPB's, so unless somebody could give me a good reason why the exclusives are better, I leave these out of my choice list.

The specs of the PPB's are so close to the specs of the Nomexes, that I really don't see why I should go for the one or the other, so if someone could tell me where the biggest difference is, please do...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hmmm, I just discovered something...

Since the PPB and Nomex mids are called '134' and the Exclusive '152', I supposed that the Exclusive was bigger, but after checking the data files again, the numbers are very misleading. The PPB and Nomex mids have 2 flat sides and the 134 stands for the distance between those 2 flat sides. They are actually also "152's", because the are exact the same size as the Exclusives: 152millimeters outer diameter.

So the thing I said before about the Exclusive mids being bigger, ain't true. There's still the fact that the Exclusives have an ugly grey basket and phaseplug, while the Nomexes and PPB's are completely black 

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Candisa,

Did you see this review of 8" midbass ?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3951


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

my modelling (inspired, i did some yesterday) says that the difference between exclusive, nomex and ppb should be minimal and in 20l closed, with some cabin gain, life should be goooooooooood 

i'll try and get some soon to test the assumptions.

where are you sourcing from? here? http://diyparadiso.com/price/stock-speakers.htm

Bret


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

As already said, for a warm midrange go PP
For mainly midbass go Nomex 
For a clearer full range reproduction go vith the Exclusives.

Not that hard, but the new alucones will be interesting...


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

a$$hole: I've read that topic and I assume it's about the HDS 182 I listed in the opening post, but they don't make them anymore, and the shop where I buy my stuff still list them, but don't have them on stock anymore, so I suppose, if I ordered them, they will be in back-order like... forever 
Also, the price they list, is about the same as the price of the HDS Exclusives. The PPB and Nomexes are cheaper, so I'll stick with those series.


bretti_kivi: building a sealed box of 20 liters on the door of a Clio 2 won't work, or at least won't be very attractive. I think the maximum I could get on an elegant way is about 12 liters. I might win a bit by using some absorbing plates (something like Focal Plainchant) behind the woofer and filling the box with synthetic wool.

I know diyparadiso, buy I buy my stuff from http://www.bmm-electronics.com , even with shipping to belgium great prices, and very fast and well packed shipping. I bought a Peerless XXLS 12" subwoofer (4ohm home version), Peerless XLS 10" passive radiators (400g version, 2 pieces) and a couple of Visaton FR10's (dirt-cheap, ideal for experimenting and having some fun) there before and I was very satisfied with the service, so to me, all good reasons to keep buying my stuff there  


Rbsarve: So the best way to achieve a nice full but tight midbass and a laid-back but detailed midrange seems to be Nomex 8" + PPB 5.25", right?

greetz,
Isabelle


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

EXCLUSIVES have aluminum shorting rings for lower distortion and 
more rigid cones.. slightly different mix or curvature??

remember the effective mass included vc spider etc..
i would expect the Exclusive to have lower MM if all else is the same du to the dust cap missing.

I have the 8" exclusive in my home system and love it.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

exclusive have picked cones and aluminum shorting rings for
lower distortion.. hence exclusive..

look at the charts..
print them out and overlay them!


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

So you would go for Exclusive all the way (8" midbass + 5.25" midrange)?

I read some people here had PPB midranges, upgraded to the Exclusives and were happy about that decision. 
The Exclusives were also mentioned in this thread, and my argument for them being bigger seems to be false (the mounting flange doesn't have 2 flat sides like the PPB's and Nomex's do, but that's it), so it seems pretty logical that the 'best' (also the most expensive one) range also has the cleanest output.
Midrange is a very wide range (250-300Hz to 2-3kHz), and is also a range where the human ear is very sensitive, so I have no problem to spend a little more on the Exclusives in stead of the PPB's if it's worth it... 
The MM isn't lower by the way, actually, the MM of the Exclusives is a little bit higher, but not really worth mentioning... 

The exclusive range is more expensive than the Nomex or PPB range and the midbasswoofers will be mounted off-axis in the doors, all I need is a pair of 8" woofers that can play 40-45Hz easily, but are tight enough to play 250Hz also. Good sensitivity is also important, since I don't have a lot of power available.

I don't see why a pair of 8" Exclusives would be worth the extra cash for such a tight, low range. If I could get cheaper midbasswoofers in the Peerless range that are 8", play 45Hz deep and 250Hz high and have the same or better efficiency and the same or even smoother FR than the HDS Nomex's, I would buy those I guess, or does that sound silly?  

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

By the way, I'm planning to set my crossover points like this:
>Subwoofer (Peerless XXLS 12" with 2 10" PR's): HP 19Hz 24dB/oct (AC EQX), LP 45Hz 18dB/oct (AC 4XS)
>Midbasswoofers: HP 45Hz 18dB/oct (AC 4XS), LP 250Hz 18dB/oct (AC 4XS)
>Midrange: HP 250Hz 18dB/oct (AC 4XS), LP 2.5kHz 24dB/oct (AC EQX)
>Tweeters (Peerless HDS): HP 2.5kHz 24dB/oct (AC EQX)
All crossovers are Linkwitz Riley, AC stands for AudioControl

Power:
Sub: Genesis Dual Mono bridged; Midbass and midrange: Genesis Four Channel; Tweeters: Genesis Stereo 100

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Linkwitz-Riley crossovers are described here}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkwitz-Riley_filter

Even order slopes of 12 dB, 24 dB , 48 dB etc..,

As long as the transmission is synchronized the shifting from one gear to another will be smooth  

Underlapping, or leaving a gap between the crossovers can work very well


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

no 8" is going that low.. 45 Hz.. unless some ported design....
not with any significant power handing anyway..and distortion numbers will get on up there..
60 hz is about as low as you want to run any sealed box 8"
unless you are including cabin gain??

go with the SLS in that case..

try a demo version of winspeak or other software and do some low end comparisons on the excursion/powerhandling curves


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I can't do anything about the slopes, neither can I underlap the crossover frequencies.

I have an AudioControl EQX and an AudioControl 4XS. 
I'll use the EQX to cross the tweeters from the rest of the system, and for the subsonic filtering. That's why the high-pass on tweeters and sub, and the low-pass on the mids is 24dB/oct.
The 4XS does the other crossover work and works with 18dB/oct slopes.
Underlapping isn't possible, because the low pass freq. of 1 pair of outputs is also the high-pass freq. of the next pair...

I chose to connect the crossovers this way, because like this, I have the most direct signal on the tweeters, and it's possible to add a sub-remote (the 4XS has a connection for that, the EQX doesn't). 
Also the tweeters will be mounted directly above the midranges, in the same baffle, so I think it's better to have the even order crossover between those 2 ranges, isn't it?
The midbasswoofers will be mounted at an approx. 90° angle to the midranges/tweeters, so the phase shifting of a 3th order crossover might work out well  

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

By the way, why shouldn't it be possible to get down to 45Hz with a 8" woofer? I really want to get as low as possible with the frontset, that's why I chose 8" woofers with a very low Fs and good efficiency...  

The SLS's are possible and a bit cheaper than the Nomex's, but less efficient, so I don't know if that's such a good plan with 2 channels of a Genesis Four Channel to feed them  

greetz,
Isabelle


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

sealed boxes or IB??


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Sealed boxes on the doors... but going IB is just a matter of making some holes in the back of the boxes...

I chose sealed boxes to prevent rattling in the doors of my french banger. I had a Focal Polyglass 165V2 compo IB in my doors before, quite some damping, still rattled...

greetz,
Isabelle


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## $rEe (Jan 15, 2008)

Candisa said:


> The SLS's are possible and a bit cheaper than the Nomex's, but less efficient, so I don't know if that's such a good plan with 2 channels of a Genesis Four Channel to feed them


Hi,
*What do you mean by SLS less efficient "compared Exclusive?

I am in the same situation you except that I am looking for a woofsubbass 8' that can replace a sub.

With a 
-Tweets: HDS1 (or my Morel MDT29) 
-Midrange: ?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

$rEe,

I believe she is referring to the numbers in the T/S parameter that gives you an idea of how much output to expect for how much input.

Reading the post will tell you which drivers she is talking about.

Driver names include SLS, Exclusive ,etc..,


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

Candisa said:


> Sealed boxes on the doors... but going IB is just a matter of making some holes in the back of the boxes...
> 
> I chose sealed boxes to prevent rattling in the doors of my french banger. I had a Focal Polyglass 165V2 compo IB in my doors before, quite some damping, still rattled...
> 
> ...


Hi, sorry for not answering sooner. Simply missed this one. Know the Clio and fully understands your decisions to go with sealed boxes. A friend of mine built sealed boxes under the seats in one of those. Not too bad, but the boxes needs lots of damping.

Back on the drivers. The SLSes are excellent bass pumps, with a bit rounded character (very "peerless poly"-sounding) while the Nomex hits harder. A matter of preference really. 

Personally I'm not fully up to speed on all 5,25" mids from Peerless, because we seldom use them between 4 and 6", then we usually go with a Scan Speak 12M or a SEAS RM120 depending on customer preference. But the exclusive 4,5" has some rave reviews in that section of this forum.

For an all Peerless system I'd go with the 830881 exclusive midrange and the 830869 midbass if you can fit them. You are looking at 20 liters per 8 and a recommedated HP at 56 Hz.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

The 8" Nomex midbasswoofers shouldn't be a problem to fit, 20 liters is a bit harder, but with the use of a not to thick, but stiff sandwich construction and some wool, I think I can get pretty close...

I can live with a HP of 56Hz @ 18dB/oct I guess...

What do you mean by "Personally I'm not fully up to speed on all 5,25" mids from Peerless"? 
The reason I'd choose 5.25" midranges is for the efficiency (only 84 dB/2.83V/1m on the 4" while the 5.25" does 88.2 dB/2.83V/1m). I'll use the Peerless HDS tweeters with a 24dB/oct slope HP right next to the midranges, so I think the top-end response of the 5.25" Exclusives should suffice?

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Rbsarve ,

Is saying that he himself rarely use them, "He is not up to speed".


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Ow, okay, but there's nothing wrong with using the 5.25" Exclusives instead of the 4"s? According to what I read about the HDS tweeters, I can easily cross them @ 2kHz, so I think I don't really need the 'quickness' of a 4", do I?

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Your way will work, too  

Everyone has a preferred way "To skin a Cat", there are many different ways to arrive at the same point.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Okay thanks!

When my Iridiums get sold (getting good stuff sold for a good price is a disaster here in Belgium  ), I'll order the 8" Nomex + 5.25" Exclusive + HDS tweeters 

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

I agree that both should work!

Efficiency is very long down on my list when it comes to selecting a midrange. Especially since low effciency i many cases means that the designer has optimized the magnet field to have to better control at higher volume levels rather then maximixe initial movement. But if you have very low power amplifiers or want to play VERY LOUD it might be a consideration.

When it comes to selecting midranges it is only two measurement instrument that I trust. The ones on either side of my head.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I agree on the efficiency thing, but I only have 2 channels a Genesis Four Channel to power the midranges. Those Exclusives are 8 ohm, so that means I have 2x40W RMS or so to power them. It doesn't have to go screaming loud, but I really don't want to hear my diesel engine over good sound, and it's allways nice to go to a meeting, sitting behind the car, listening to my own music instead of the 'music' of a boomcar, 5 cars further 

I'll mount the midranges pretty on axis in the dashboard, so for normal use, they don't have to go that loud to keep up with the midbasswoofers down in the doors, but it's possible that I'll use the Dual Mono for the midbasswoofers (and trade in the Stereo 100 for a nice monoblock for my sub) in the future...

I fully agree with you that there's only one way to selecting audio-gear, and that is by listening to it, but over here, really nobody has DIY stuff in their car. They all stick to 'home-audio is for at home, in a car you need caraudio'....

greetz,
Isabelle


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## bretti_kivi (Dec 3, 2007)

> really nobody has DIY stuff in their car. They all stick to 'home-audio is for at home, in a car you need caraudio'....


that sounds *so* familiar  :-.


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## $rEe (Jan 15, 2008)

Hi Candisa,

Let us know your comments as soon as you have received, because I am very impatiant have your opinion, it certainly will help me to make my choice between NOMEX & the SLS.  
I wonder if they also have the impact that people say. 
Tell us as if the 5,5 exclusive mixes well with you Nomex and your tweets.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Well, it can take a while to give you my opinion. I have to get my DLS Iridium 6i's sold before I order the Peerless gear and then I still have to squeeze everything in my Clio. I have lots of things on my mind and I'm not always in the mood to get things done, so it can easily take another year before the stuff actually gets in my car......


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

Personally, I would use the 8" sls over the nomex driver if I felt I needed real output down to 40hz, but with your sub setup, I don't see getting below 60hz as a serious requirement. Output between 55-120 would be more critical with that 3way. And, in that range, the nomex driver would be sufficient.

The exclusive for the midrange is definitly a nice choice, and that dual mono has plenty of guts to push it. (definitly a nice amp choice)


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Well, getting low with the frontset is nice, but not if I have to make compromises I don't really need to take. As I said, I can live with 'only' 56Hz if it's better for the midbass response.

The Dual Mono on the midbasswoofers is something I might do in the future. 
First of all, I have to get the right units (and it seems 8"Nomex + 5.25"Exclusive + HDS tweet is combination for me) and make them sound great together, so a Stereo 100 on the midbasswoofers must suffice for now. 
When I find that it doesn't get loud or dynamic enough (and if that's the fact, it will probably be caused by not enough power on de midbasswoofers), I can always look for a nice deal that gives me more power where I need it.

Now I have to get my DLS Iridiums sold... wich are for sale like half a year, without any serious reaction  

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Sorry to bump this thread again, but I tought it was a bit stupid to start a new one for this...

So I'm gonna use those Peerless HDS Nomex 8" drivers as midbasswoofers, and I was planning to build sealed boxes on my doors for them...

But after measuring stuff and studying the shape of the framework of the doors, It will be easier to dampen the **** out of my doors (there's allready quite a lot of deadening in them, but apparently Clio doors are tuffies to get dead) and customizing the door-panels. 
The volume of the door shouldn't be a problem, I think there's enough space in there for 2 8" woofers to have enough air in there, but a door is far from sealed (draining holes, locks, window rubbers...), will that have a negative effect on them, of should I just go for it?

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Not a bad compromise  

"Just Go for It !"


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Tought so, but I wanted to be sure, thanks 

(Still have to get my DLS Iridiums sold first tho'  )

greetingz,
Isabelle


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Did you ever get the Nomex's put in? If so, what are your impressions of their low frequency extension?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

The only speakers in my car at the moment, are a couple of Visaton 4" dual cone fullrange speakers 

And in the meanwhile, I decided to go with the SLS's afterall... 2 pairs of them 

greetz,
Isabelle


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

wow. Thats gonna be some monster low end. Are you going to run subless then ?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Nope, they'll only have to do 60-300ish Hz. <60Hz will be played trough 2 12" Peerless XXLS subs in a wall with 3 10" Peerless XLS passive radiators, powered by a Steg QM240.1x (will do about 500W @ 2ohm irl)

The midbasswoofers will be powered by a Genesis Four Channel (each side parallel bridged on 2 channels gives about [email protected] per side).

I like powerfull, tight midbass and sub that 'is there' (just enough to not miss it)

greetz,
Isabelle


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