# What are these - amps for ants?



## xertian

Technology really has benefited mobile audio. The last systems I spec'd and installed were about 12-15 years ago and I'm floored at how amps and processors have shrunk. Also the price per watt is excellent relative to what I remember.

On to what's brought me here...
I've got a brand new 2016 Ford SHO with a factory Sony system that simply has to go. It's loud but lifeless. Also, I've got the bug to build something and this is my current medium of choice. I'm planning on a fiberglass sub box, fiberglass amp rack, and after phase 1 of this build is complete and valid, I'll circle around to a 2nd tweeter upgrade and custom a-pillars.

I know there are some members here with experience in this car and look forward to picking their brains on this build.


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## xertian

So I just tried to post to one of the various sub-forums here and got blocked by an anti-spam message. Is that normal? Is it kosher to post 5 times in this thread and try to work around the issue? There were no pics or links in my post attempt.


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## Holmz

I am interested in following you fibreglass work...


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## xertian

Yeah, I'm pretty excited to get started.

I spent 2 hours yesterday just staring into my disassembled trunk while architecting things in my head. It's a great way to spend some time.


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## Theslaking

Yes you can spam your 5 posts in this thread in a decent fashion. Here I'll help. What HU/source are you going to use?


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## xertian

Theslaking said:


> Yes you can spam your 5 posts in this thread in a decent fashion. Here I'll help. What HU/source are you going to use?


So glad you asked ;-)

I'm going to integrate into the factory system using a PAC AmpPro4. I'll use the optional toslink adapter off of that to a JL TWK-8D for tuning. Amps are a constantly changing variable but in the end I need 2 chan ~75w, 2 chan ~150w, and ~1000w mono. I may go with a bridged 6 channel or larger 4 channel, not quite sure.

I've got some SI TM65 MKiii on preorder. you think ~120-150 watts will be good for those TM65 MKiii?


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## xertian

xertian said:


> So glad you asked ;-)
> 
> 
> I've got some SI TM65 MKiii on preorder. you think ~120-150 watts will be good for those TM65 MKiii?


I've seen such a wide range of power being supplied to peoples' MKII variants, that's why I was wondering, beyond the factory supplied specs of 120w.


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## JVD240

Congrats on the big 5-....!


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## xertian

JVD240 said:


> Congrats on the big 5-....!


Thanks! Now I'll give my other post another go.


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## Theslaking

I'm putting about 150 to each of my second versions and they love it. I believe the power handling is about the same.


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## Redliner99

Theslaking said:


> I'm putting about 150 to each of my second versions and they love it. I believe the power handling is about the same.




What amp are you using?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xertian

Redliner99 said:


> What amp are you using?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not decided on amps yet. I've identified numerous options in the 120w-150w range. Just wanted to be sure I shouldn't be shooting higher. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## Redliner99

xertian said:


> Not decided on amps yet. I've identified numerous options in the 120w-150w range. Just wanted to be sure I shouldn't be shooting higher.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk




You should do some reading on here about how much it actually takes to make speakers loud especially on a tweeter. 150w is a lot of power for a front stage 


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## xertian

The concern was mostly around the 6.5", but your point is noted. On an oddly frustrating note my other post has disappeared. Is this normal? Should I see some sort of notification or something if that happens?

Edit: I'm certain it posted because I clicked into it a few times and watched the "read" counter increment.


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## Redliner99

xertian said:


> The concern was mostly around the 6.5", but your point is noted. On an oddly frustrating note my other post has disappeared. Is this normal? Should I see some sort of notification or something if that happens?




Are you using tapatalk or the desk top sight? For example I'm using the jl hd 600/4 on focal flax midbass I'm about 50% gain if I went to 100% gain at listening level it would just cook the woofer 


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## xertian

I posted the instance in question on the desktop site. Jumping between tapatalk and desktop now as I investigate.


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## Redliner99

xertian said:


> I posted the instance in question on the desktop site. Jumping between tapatalk and desktop now as I investigate.




Tapatalk is glitchy especially with this recent update. Back to your build what are gonna use for front stage?


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## xertian

Man I really wish that other post didn't disappear. I laid it all out in quite some detail.

For now the plan is...

2 way active front and dual 12" subs


PAC AmpPro w/toslink 
JL TWK-D8
Alpine X-A70F (4x120)
Alpine X-A90M (1x900)
Alpine SPR-10TW (temporary tweets in factory location, upgrade to something else in FG pillars at later date)
SI TM65 MkIII
2 x 12" SI BM MKV

The subs will be in a sealed FG enclosure and the electronics (sans PAC) will be in a FG rack in the side wall of the trunk. The amps are very much up in the air at this point. Everything else is a pretty solid choice. That said, only the TM65's have been paid for.


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## xertian

I had a copy of my missing post in notepad on my desktop, so here's the original. We'l see if it triggers some DB purge protocol or something ;-)

...


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## Holmz

Most people seem to have little understanding of the wattage requirements, and many do not have a handle on the SPL they need/want.

The 120W is more than enough unless one is getting super wild with the volume.

The 900w seems like a lot, however most of the power is consumed in the sub band.

It should not be under amped with those numbers.


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## xertian

Edit:: Here's the post content that disappeared. May read a bit redundant now.
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Please take a look at this build and let me know if you have any opinions:

*Install Platform*
2016 Ford Taurus SHO with 12 Speaker Sony System


*Factory Integration*
PAC AmpPRO AP4-FD21/w Toslink adapter

This isn't listed as compatible on the PAC website but others have had success

*DSP*
JL Audio TwK™ D8 System Tuning Processor

Connected via 20’ Toslink


*Amplifiers*
Alpine X-A70F (Tweets and Mids)
X-Series 4-channel car amplifier — 120 watts RMS x 4 @ 4ohm

Alpine X-A90M (Subs)
X-Series mono subwoofer amplifier — 900 watts RMS at 2ohm 

It seems like there are infinite ways to answer the AMP question and I came up with many alternatives. Ultimately I ended up with these based upon their small size, matched pair(visuals), and not requiring a 3 amp or larger 6ch in the mix. I'm open to options here but want to stay away from 15"+ long amps if possible. Cheaper options wouldn't be horrible. 

*Speakers*

Alpine SPR-10TW 
1" Silk Dome Tweeters (on 120w each)
(factory location)

This is phase 1. After I get all of the listed build done and enjoy the system for a while I will very likely start phase 2 which will see an upgrade to different tweeters in custom fiberglass A-pillars. It’s just too much for me to tackle in the first phase as I’ve never done FG before and don’t want to be without my car for too long.

6.5" SI TM65 MkIII (on 120w each)
(factory location)

2 x SI BM mk V 12" Subwoofer, sealed .75cuft (on 450w each)
Installed into custom FG with ~.75cuft per

*Questions*



This build includes low effort tweeter install to factory location to buy time before doing custom A-pillars and better tweets, is the listed pair a good stopgap until then? Any recommendations on alternatives for first pair? My primary concern is that they pair well with the TM65 Mkiii. Also, is 120w for tweets going to be limiting in the future when I do decide to take the plunge and really upgrade to large format or other high end tweeter options?

I don’t have concrete plans for crossover settings, any recommendations for the listed speakers? I’ll put more research into that myself and come back with much more specific questions but thought I’d throw out the general question.

Is 120w enough for the SI TM65 Miii, based upon MkIII experiences? I don’t want to under power them considering the specs are no doubt on 14.4v...


Any commentary on the sub/amp combo, power etc?


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## Redliner99

What is making you choose those specific pieces? Budget?


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## xertian

Redliner99 said:


> What is making you choose those specific pieces? Budget?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great question, if a bit broad ;-)

The PAC AmpPro is one of the few clean solutions (edit: for integration) for my make/model of car. The RF DRS1 was an initial option that just has too many bugs for me to risk.

The TWD-D8 takes optical in, has more than enough feature set for me, the software looks fine by my standards. The close alternate was the MiniDSP variant that comes with optical.

Amps are a toss up. There are infinite options it seems. Whatever combo gets me the following is an option: 2x75, 2x120, 1x900. I've got to start somewhere and givving all drivers RMS power seems like a safe enough place.

The tweeters are sized to fit without mods, to be re-upgraded later.

The SI TM65 were on my radar for as while due to size and reported performance.

The subs seem like a good option for shallow 12". I've waffled between IDMAX12, JL12v3, IDQ12, DaytonHO44 (edit: when eyeballing different box layouts).


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## OneGun

Good luck OP and kudos to you (as well as rep points) for the thread title!


I'm wondering why you, and seemingly the majority of persons here, seem to have an aversion to he use of 5-channel amps. 

I'm using them in my two recent builds and think they're perfect for 2-way front stage/sub configurations. Unless one is interested in SPL competitions, why do folks who are concerned mostly with SQ feel the need to go so high with sub wattages?

This has puzzled me since I came here.


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## xertian

OneGun said:


> Good luck OP and kudos to you (as well as rep points) for the thread title!
> 
> 
> I'm wondering why you, and seemingly the majority of persons here, seem to have an aversion to he use of 5-channel amps.
> 
> I'm using them in my two recent builds and think they're perfect for 2-way front stage/sub configurations. Unless one is interested in SPL competitions, why do folks who are concerned mostly with SQ feel the need to go so high with sub wattages?
> 
> This has puzzled me since I came here.


No real aversion to them and I've used a 5ch Infinity in a CrownVic back in 2003 with success. In this current build there just aren't many that line up with my targets. Those targets might change and the 5ch options may come back into the mix. I've got to start somewhere I guess. 

With regard to your wattages question, I'm sensing a trend here but not qualified to speak to it; but I'm here to learn. FWIW, my last 2 systems ran with a single 10" sub on first 300w then 400w. They both sounded great to my untuned ears and met my SPL needs 85% of the time. 

Thanks for the questions. It's good to keep the gears turning.


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## Redliner99

I think a lot of people who run high power single 10-12" or 2 subs tend to go with 2 amps. 


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## Theslaking

Redliner99 said:


> What amp are you using?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


2 Sound Monitor PAX.


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## Holmz

OneGun said:


> Good luck OP and kudos to you (as well as rep points) for the thread title!
> 
> 
> I'm wondering why you, and seemingly the majority of persons here, seem to have an aversion to he use of 5-channel amps.
> 
> I'm using them in my two recent builds and think they're perfect for 2-way front stage/sub configurations. Unless one is interested in SPL competitions, why do folks who are concerned mostly with SQ feel the need to go so high with sub wattages?
> 
> This has puzzled me since I came here.


I can make a cogent argument for using a class AB amp for the midrange/midbass and also the tweeter... and a cogent argument for a class-D for woofers and sub woofers.

Such a scheme would require more than 1 amp. Like a 4 channel class-AB (MR+Tweeters), a two channel class-D (for woofers) and a class-D subwoofer amp.


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## unix_usr

PM me your VIN # - I should be able to provide some pointers above and beyond what the pac amp piece does 


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## xertian

unix_usr said:


> PM me your VIN # - I should be able to provide some pointers above and beyond what the pac amp piece does
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, I'll do that. Are you talking about FORSCAN options?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## OneGun

Holmz said:


> I can make a cogent argument for using a class AB amp for the midrange/midbass and also the tweeter... and a cogent argument for a class-D for woofers and sub woofers.
> 
> Such a scheme would require more than 1 amp. Like a 4 channel class-AB (MR+Tweeters), a two channel class-D (for woofers) and a class-D subwoofer amp.


Huh?


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## ckirocz28

OneGun said:


> Good luck OP and kudos to you (as well as rep points) for the thread title!
> 
> 
> I'm wondering why you, and seemingly the majority of persons here, seem to have an aversion to he use of 5-channel amps.
> 
> I'm using them in my two recent builds and think they're perfect for 2-way front stage/sub configurations. Unless one is interested in SPL competitions, why do folks who are concerned mostly with SQ feel the need to go so high with sub wattages?
> 
> This has puzzled me since I came here.


I'll say this about subwoofer wattage, if you have a car without perfect acoustics and use eq to correct it, you're gonna need a lot of headroom.


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## xertian

ckirocz28 said:


> I'll say this about subwoofer wattage, if you have a car without perfect acoustics and use eq to correct it, you're gonna need a lot of headroom.


Is that headroom on EQ bands or amp wattage?

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## Holmz

xertian said:


> Is that headroom on EQ bands or amp wattage?


I would have thought the former, as SPL and wattage are linear.




OneGun said:


> Huh?


Maybe phrase that as a less general question?
Which parts are you "huh'ing" over?


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## ckirocz28

xertian said:


> Is that headroom on EQ bands or amp wattage?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Amp wattage.


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## ckirocz28

xertian said:


> Is that headroom on EQ bands or amp wattage?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


It's really dependent on how much eq you need, flattening a 5db peak at 40hz with a 1500 watt amp removes quite a bit of perceived loudness. If you never crank it up, you may never miss it; if you like an occasional back massage, you absolutely will miss it.


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