# WTF, why bash the local Shops?



## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

OK, so a little sangria has me wondering about a few things. I am a shop owner and I spend a good amount of money stocking stuff for DIY guys as well as other shops to be able to come and buy install supplies from me as well as speaker boxes, radios, TVs, Speakers, Subs, and amps from me to complete installs. I come on here and see DIY guys bashing the crap out of me (local shops, not me personally) because we sell at retail. So many people on here want to buy from some pimple faced 17 year old kid (not bashing you as a person, that was me 20 years ago) that sells from his daddys garage. THese online garage guys sell for cost or 5-10% over my cost on things and have NO OVER HEAD. If they sell today that does not mean they will be here tomorrow to service you. It seems this does not matter, you buy from the 16 year old that replaces him.

As a guy that has dedicated my life to providing better sound to people i get pissed off at all these jack asses that think that every shop is out to rip you off. I will tell you this now, if you look back, there would be NO 12 Volt industry with out guys like me spending out lifes savings on stocking **** for ungratefull asses. We work hard to keep a good inventory instock so that people can come in and get what they need when they need it. This costs us money. We work hard on introducing products that you may not know about and this costs us money. We work hard on maintaing demo vehicles so that you may come and hear the product to order it off line and this costs us money. 


All the things that a guy like me spend our money on are things that DIY guys come in and ask for and need to complete installs. Should i spend $1500 on stocking enough sound deadening material for you to come and get it with out waiting and sell it at my cost? Yes, piss on you, no? What is expected for me to make on sitting on it in hopes you come in and buy it?

I ask all this because as a retailer, i started as a DIY guy and depended on local shops and layaway. My first purchase was a pair of kenwood 3.5 inch speakers for my malibu that i had to purchase at Team Electronics in Springfield, Illinois. I have purchased from Pawn Shops and Local Shops through the years prior to getting in the business. I just want to make sure we are here to help the local guys and make the money needed to be able to be here in 10 years to do it as well. Shops have to make money to be around.

What do you DIY guys expect from local shops? Just go away? do you have things that you feel you need for education and stocking stuff?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

well here in upstate new york I've walked into all of the local toyota shop's and said, here is what I can get it online from another dealer for. Can You guys play ball, (and I stress this next part) It doesn't have to be the same, just get it in the ball park and i'll be happy. Only one shop does it. 

I don't Mind spending an extra 20 bucks on a part to buy it local, just don't charge me a extra 50 60 on a 100$ part.

I don't bash local shop's. The quality of work up here speaks for itself, When you pull a glass fuse with 2 wires soldered to it and wrapped in tape out of the car, why would you pay to have them install it? I'm not saying every shop around here does this but quite a few do.

None of the shops in my area have demo car's so that part is out. I feel your pain on that part though.

bottom Line with me is, I buy online, If I don't like it I resell. I can do the same quality of work as the local shop, so why pay them 50-60 bucks and hour, And If something gets broken I get to take care of it, Rather than ***** about it and fix it myself anyway.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I appreciate this site...it's an invaluable resource for info on set-up and tuning and I enjoy looking at everyones installs. 
But...I buy retail. I'm not worried about saving a few bucks. If it's not an authorized retailer they're not getting my money. 
Do I spend more ? Yep...but it's worth it when and if I need product support or warranty work done. 
I might not fit the DIY mold as far as a raw driver affectionado but I do my part to not spent money with basement vendors or eBay cutthroats.


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## autonoz (Nov 23, 2009)

Before I bash our local audio shop, and I am not saying everyone does this but, I just recently began research on putting a system in my son's car. The local shop wanted two times the price I could get the exact same system on line, plus $100.00 for install. Now I thought the install fee was ok, but the price difference for components was to steep to pay.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

turbo5upra said:


> well here in upstate new york I've walked into all of the local toyota shop's and said, here is what I can get it online from another dealer for. Can You guys play ball, (and I stress this next part) It doesn't have to be the same, just get it in the ball park and i'll be happy. Only one shop does it.
> 
> I don't Mind spending an extra 20 bucks on a part to buy it local, just don't charge me a extra 50 60 on a 100$ part.
> 
> ...


I guess my point is, we are here to all support better sound. There are ALOT of guys that can do quality installs at home with out me doing it. That was me prior to entering the business. there are on occasion i have a guy come in that has no FREAKING CLUE on how to do an install properly. Hell 2 weeks ago i had a kid come in and ask me to fix his intalls. I had done the install and he went to walmart buy new speakers. I offered him new 6x9s for 120 installed and he bought a set at walmart for 79 and installed them himself. His system now does not work. He wanted me to fix it so i told him i needed to charge him. He got pissed when i pointed out i offered to INSTALL a pair for $40 more than he paid at walmart. Now his stuff did not play after he did it him self. This is the kind of DIY guy that we deal with. So for $40 now he has a system tha does no work and is pissed i wont fix it for free after he jacked it up.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

turbo5upra said:


> None of the shops in my area have demo car's so that part is out. I feel your pain on that part though.
> .


Right now we have 2 demo vehicles with Image Dynamics and building another with Addictive audio and will start on an Orion one soon.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

autonoz said:


> Before I bash our local audio shop, and I am not saying everyone does this but, I just recently began research on putting a system in my son's car. The local shop wanted two times the price I could get the exact same system on line, plus $100.00 for install. Now I thought the install fee was ok, but the price difference for components was to steep to pay.


I guess that is my point. The local shop may charge more but are they truly giving you the same thing as online? $100 for install is not bad in and of itself, hell that is cheap.

When you went to the local shop, did they stock the product? Did they demo the product? Did they let you hold the product? Did they have it for you today? What is that worth?


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## SirMilo (Aug 15, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> I am a shop owner and I spend a good amount of money stocking stuff for DIY guys as well as other shops to be able to come and buy install supplies from me as well as speaker boxes, radios, TVs, Speakers, Subs, and amps from me to complete installs.
> ..............
> What do you DIY guys expect from local shops? Just go away? do you have things that you feel you need for education and stocking stuff?


Nobody is in business NOT to make money...... most people realize this.
I don't bash local shops but will set the stage why I don't care for SOME of the local shops. It is not uncommon to walk into a local shop in this area knowing substantially more than the people who are employed there- *This is probably one of the biggest issues*.
Some stores don't want to know how they can help you- they know what you want and expect you to purchase something you don't want or need. Example: I went into 5-6 local stores asking about IB capable subwoofers and Head Units. 1 store tries to sell me a high dollar sub that definitely would not work in an IB setup (strike one). 2 different stores told me they would need to do some research (I'm OK with that), but of course couldn't be bothered to ever get back with me (strike 2). There was another store that flat out told me every speaker needs a box (strike 3).
On the head units, I made it very clear what my needs were and nothing short of those requirements would work. Of course, again, multiple people tried to sell me items that wouldn't work for my application.

I am loyal to local shops who have customer service and are actually concerned with my needs, not just my wallet. I would actually pay more to support the local economy (and have many times) as long as I feel I am being treated fairly, receive good customer service, and am not a target with dollar signs tatooed to my forehead. I have dealt many times with the same local shop for my hi-end home audio equipment and will continue doing so. Yes, I could have saved a few hundred dollars shopping online, but being allowed to take equipment home to "test drive" in your own system is worth way more than a couple hundred dollars, to me.

I appreciate being able to deal with a local B&M shop that provides me with something other than sticker shock. **cough** Custom Sounds **cough**


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Most people here are not into bashing on the local shops. The catch 22 is, the wealth of information and variety of product reviews online far exceeds that of most shop owners/employees.

"What do you DIY guys expect from local shops?"
You must compete with the internet in 2 ways. One is in pricing and the other is in showing DIY people that you are still searching how to improve audio.

"do you have things that you feel you need for education and stocking stuff?"
As for education, the audio world is vast and some things take time to learn about depending on the customers knowledge level. It would be difficult to make this learning solely an in the shop experience without lots of time. One way would be to have a test car and show people: FR, TA, crossovers (A/P), gains, eq's, enclosures (IB vs sealed vs ported), and on and on.

I only need installation parts to be in stock, not large electronic components. I would have them order those things if needed. People that walk in without previously talking with the shop about a product are usually inexperienced in audio and want to be sold something.

Good luck with your business. Things sure have changed.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Start selling online as well. If I go to a brick and mortar it's because I need it now and am willing to pay for it. I don't bad mouth local shops. I understand overhead. 

I could never understand why a shop couldn't start an online store and sell for the 5-10% over cost. Give an "online" warranty and increase your profit margin by the increase in quantity purchased from the manufacturer thereby garnering the decrease in price.


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## shanemasters1 (Nov 26, 2009)

Ocala,

I cant speak for florida but I can certainly speak for atlanta. One of the main reasons that people tend to bash "retailers" is because time and time again the "retailer" whether in the car stereo business or almost any other segment, will go out of there way to take advantage of the customer. In the old days customer service actually meant a win win situation where the seller and the buyer benefited from the business interaction. In todays economic landscape there seems to be an assumption that "buyers" are un-educated or just plain stupid, possibly true in many cases. Now that you can use red laser on your iphone to find out the online price of most anything with a bar code, in like 10 seconds, people are more and more informed about the wholesale cost of nearly everything. The availability of this information puts the seller at odds with the buyer. So, they assume the generally accepted american attitude and pretend that things are the same, basic denial. There is value to brick and mortar establishments, most especially professional, knowledgeable and helpful employees. I for one greatly appreciate when an employee is able and willing to be helpful. And on many occasions I am willing to pay just for the opportunity to ask questions and received informed and experienced answers. This is the rare occasion in atlanta. Money is not the issue, value is. I look for value and most retailers look for ignorance. This will always put those who are informed at odds with those who seek to make a living from commerce with those lacking experience and or curiosity. Its not personal, just business.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

schmiddr2 said:


> Most people here are not into bashing on the local shops. The catch 22 is, the wealth of information and variety of product reviews online far exceeds that of most shop owners/employees.
> 
> "What do you DIY guys expect from local shops?"
> You must compete with the internet in 2 ways. One is in pricing and the other is in showing DIY people that you are still searching how to improve audio.
> ...


I understand that information on the net is vast. I am working on trying to supply more information on my site as well. Information is power and the net works well at that. It is my job to get answer the questions for my customers and if i dont know the answer i need to get it for them. We work hard on helping our customers think of us for anything to do with their cars. Hell last week we had one of our guys drive 30 minutes to pick up a car and drive it 2 hours to get a range rover serviced and then drive it back. A full day to service a customer. Service is key. I guess now i want to know what service is worth to the DIY crowd?


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

The "DIY" in DIYMA means do-it-yourself. This is for people who enjoy the journey as well as the destination. Some people prefer to change their own oil, where others are less mechanically inclined and prefer to have a company do it. Sure, you could go to a DIY auto repair forum and hear rants from shadetree mechanics. This doesn't mean that the local guys don't deserve business. It just all has to do with the individual and their desires.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

shanemasters1 said:


> Ocala,
> 
> I cant speak for florida but I can certainly speak for atlanta. One of the main reasons that people tend to bash "retailers" is because time and time again the "retailer" whether in the car stereo business or almost any other segment, will go out of there way to take advantage of the customer. In the old days customer service actually meant a win win situation where the seller and the buyer benefited from the business interaction. In todays economic landscape there seems to be an assumption that "buyers" are un-educated or just plain stupid, possibly true in many cases. Now that you can use red laser on your iphone to find out the online price of most anything with a bar code, in like 10 seconds, people are more and more informed about the wholesale cost of nearly everything. The availability of this information puts the seller at odds with the buyer. So, they assume the generally accepted american attitude and pretend that things are the same, basic denial. There is value to brick and mortar establishments, most especially professional, knowledgeable and helpful employees. I for one greatly appreciate when an employee is able and willing to be helpful. And on many occasions I am willing to pay just for the opportunity to ask questions and received informed and experienced answers. This is the rare occasion in atlanta. Money is not the issue, value is. I look for value and most retailers look for ignorance. This will always put those who are informed at odds with those who seek to make a living from commerce with those lacking experience and or curiosity. Its not personal, just business.


One of the tag lines i use and love is "simply the best value". I dont claim to be the cheapest but work hard to provide what i feel i value. If some offers you kick ass service, what is it worth? What do you consider great service?


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

BigAl205 said:


> The "DIY" in DIYMA means do-it-yourself. This is for people who enjoy the journey as well as the destination. Some people prefer to change their own oil, where others are less mechanically inclined and prefer to have a company do it. Sure, you could go to a DIY auto repair forum and hear rants from shadetree mechanics. This doesn't mean that the local guys don't deserve business. It just all has to do with the individual and their desires.


Al, I understand that. I change my own oil some times but most of the time drop it in for service. I am looking to be able to set up to supply goods to Do It Yourself (DIY) guys as well as traditional retail. What is important to supply you or others as a DIY and what kind of premium are DIY guys willing to pay for the service?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

The main reason i do not like local shops is because i hate that i never find one where they seem to be passionate about car audio. It always feels the same as if was walking into the local borg to buy lumber...its just a chore for them to be in business. I miss all that complacency when i shop online

If you seem more enthused about car audio than i am and i will be a customer.


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## SirMilo (Aug 15, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> It is my job to get answer the questions for my customers and if i dont know the answer i need to get it for them. We work hard on helping our customers think of us for anything to do with their cars. Service is key. I guess now i want to know what service is worth to the DIY crowd?


Your quote above would earn my business.
You obviously run a business where the customer comes first, and that seems, unfortunately, what most local audio shops lack around here.


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

ptannjr said:


> OK, so a little sangria has me wondering about a few things. I am a shop owner and I spend a good amount of money stocking stuff for DIY guys as well as other shops to be able to come and buy install supplies from me as well as speaker boxes, radios, TVs, Speakers, Subs, and amps from me to complete installs. I come on here and see DIY guys bashing the crap out of me (local shops, not me personally) because we sell at retail. So many people on here want to buy from some pimple faced 17 year old kid (not bashing you as a person, that was me 20 years ago) that sells from his daddys garage. THese online garage guys sell for cost or 5-10% over my cost on things and have NO OVER HEAD. If they sell today that does not mean they will be here tomorrow to service you. It seems this does not matter, you buy from the 16 year old that replaces him.
> 
> As a guy that has dedicated my life to providing better sound to people i get pissed off at all these jack asses that think that every shop is out to rip you off. I will tell you this now, if you look back, there would be NO 12 Volt industry with out guys like me spending out lifes savings on stocking **** for ungratefull asses. We work hard to keep a good inventory instock so that people can come in and get what they need when they need it. This costs us money. We work hard on introducing products that you may not know about and this costs us money. We work hard on maintaing demo vehicles so that you may come and hear the product to order it off line and this costs us money.
> 
> ...



Let me give you my view of all the shops I have visited in my area. Most of them sell for retail, no discounts at all. When I say retail I mean the price Pioneer lists on their website, that's what you pay and it's the same with most manufacturers. A couple of the shops here actually sell above retail. I went into Custom Sounds and was quoted $650 plus tax and shipping for a Pioneer DEH-P800PRS bringing it to right at $700. Pioneer lists the retail as $550....go figure. Now there are some shops around here where you can get a good deal, but the tradeoff is customer service...they WILL NOT warranty their stuff. Also, if you want something, you are lucky if they take the time to give you a price for it. I asked about some DD subs at a local shop, the guy said he would have to call....BS...too lazy to look. He got my phone number, didn't call for a week. I went by....he said he forgot to call...asked for my number again...I'm sure he lost it. Another week went by, nothing, so I stopped by again and he asked for my number again...I said nevermind. Now for another shop. I stopped by for the FIRST TIME and asked how much for three of the new Soundstream Ref amps, guys said he didn't have a price sheet, but he could call and let me know later that afternoon...I still haven't heard from him in over four months LOL.

My point is the reason for going to local shops is not for better deals, huge product selection or free install kits with purchase. It is all about customer service whether that be professional knowledge with install or equipment choice, or warranty replacement. Most shops these days don't offer customer service, I can say that with certainty. Now there are a few that do, but they are few and far between.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

miniSQ said:


> The main reason i do not like local shops is because i hate that i never find one where they seem to be passionate about car audio. It always feels the same as if was walking into the local borg to buy lumber...its just a chore for them to be in business. I miss all that complacency when i shop online
> 
> If you seem more enthused about car audio than i am and i will be a customer.


How does, one expose the enthusiasm? I provide demos and do my best to offer products that meet prices and also products that i care about and enjoy using in my own vehicles.


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## autonoz (Nov 23, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> I guess that is my point. The local shop may charge more but are they truly giving you the same thing as online? $100 for install is not bad in and of itself, hell that is cheap.
> 
> When you went to the local shop, did they stock the product? Did they demo the product? Did they let you hold the product? Did they have it for you today? What is that worth?


I am all about supporting my home town. He did have it in stock, but was unable to demonstrate. I can not justify paying two times the amount though.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> Al, I understand that. I change my own oil some times but most of the time drop it in for service. I am looking to be able to set up to supply goods to Do It Yourself (DIY) guys as well as traditional retail. What is important to supply you or others as a DIY and what kind of premium are DIY guys willing to pay for the service?


I guess that is the dilemma for you...DIYers don't want to pay for service, they just want a good product at the lowest price. That's why this forum is big on "generic" drivers...same bang, less buck.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> One of the tag lines i use and love is "simply the best value". I dont claim to be the cheapest but work hard to provide what i feel i value. If some offers you kick ass service, what is it worth? What do you consider great service?


Well to a DIY guy service is not worth much. We usually plan ahead when buying, we have lots of resources for learning, we have tools, etc.

DIY people are just not a good target market for shops. Here is why: I can find products at great prices, I like to install them, and the savings of both of those lets me get better components. Would I rather have a $200 front stage installed or a $400 front stage and I install it. You know what I mean?


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

autonoz said:


> I am all about supporting my home town. He did have it in stock, but was unable to demonstrate. I can not justify paying two times the amount though.


If you dont mind, what was the system design? what was the pricing?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I second this.... I don't mind a I have no idea instead of bs.... really love I have no idea but i'll find out!


SirMilo said:


> Your quote above would earn my business.
> You obviously run a business where the customer comes first, and that seems, unfortunately, what most local audio shops lack around here.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

schmiddr2 said:


> Well to a DIY guy service is not worth much. We usually plan ahead when buying, we have lots of resources for learning, we have tools, etc.
> 
> DIY people are just not a good target market for shops. Here is why: I can find products at great prices, I like to install them, and the savings of both of those lets me get better components. Would I rather have a $200 front stage installed or a $400 front stage and I install it. You know what I mean?


I understand what you are saying. DIY is not my focus, it is simply a part of my business that i do not want to ignore. On those $400 front stage speakers, do you rely solely on internet reviews or do you like to hear them first? I dont mind selling a set of $400 speakers for the fronts if it is simply clerking them and making very little margin, but if i take the time to stock them and let you demo them, does it merit more revenue?


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## SirMilo (Aug 15, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> I dont mind selling a set of $400 speakers for the fronts if it is simply clerking them and making very little margin, but if i take the time to stock them and let you demo them, does it merit more revenue?



I would be willing to pay more for such a service.
Buying $400 of speakers that i've never heard, or spending $500 to insure I like them is an additional $100 well spent for me.

If I buy the $400 speakers, install them, and then don't like them, I will already be losing that extra money. In addition, having to sell and purchase more speakers is more money and time that could have been avoided.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ptannjr said:


> OK, so a little sangria has me wondering about a few things.... do you have things that you feel you need *for education* and stocking stuff?


The local 16 yr old works as a lead installer and is proud he blew out his rear pickup truck window .

I work with his dad 

Someday , mebbe he will buy his own store , if his dad has the money.

For educating yourself , I'd try BCAE, 12volt, this forum. [those will give u a good start].

Always disconnect the negative battery cable on a negatively ground system...before you install anything or weld something to the metal !

Lot of old people in Forida , mebbe add some Geritol !


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> The local 16 yr old works as a lead installer and is proud he blew out his rear pickup truck window .
> 
> I work with his dad
> 
> ...


WOW!


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

Ya know, Im kinda tired of you shop owners coming into this DIY site and bitching because we arent willing to pay you 2-3x as much money for the same product. I understand you are trying to protect your business, but come on. Warranty?? I provide my own warranty. If I buy speakers and blow them, I buy another set and still come out spending less than buying from a shop. Install?? I do that myself. We have one local shop here. I took my cobra there to have them do a fiberglass spare tire well enclosure, and Im not extremely happy with the results. As far as education goes, I can learn everything i need to know on this forum or a few others


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## clbolt (Jan 9, 2008)

I don't blindly bash local shops. I've had friends who owned car audio stores, and I absolutely love buying from a local shop where the staff are knowledgeable and helpful. However, if I find idiocy or elitism when I go into a shop, I'll warn people away from them.

That said, there's one car audio store that I was forced to deal with when I worked at the car dealership. The service was so bad, and the staff so blatantly unhelpful, that I told my boss I wouldn't piss on the owner's head if he was on fire. That finally got my point across, and I was allowed to take our work elsewhere. I absolutely won't tolerate substandard work done to my customer's cars.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

King Nothing said:


> Ya know, Im kinda tired of you shop owners coming into this DIY site and bitching because we arent willing to pay you 2-3x as much money for the same product. I understand you are trying to protect your business, but come on. Warranty?? I provide my own warranty. If I buy speakers and blow them, I buy another set and still come out spending less than buying from a shop. Install?? I do that myself. We have one local shop here. I took my cobra there to have them do a fiberglass spare tire well enclosure, and Im not extremely happy with the results. As far as education goes, I can learn everything i need to know on this forum or a few others


Listen i am here not bitching but asking how to make my shop relevant to the DIY. I am sorry you are can not understand that. After all the shops are what built the industry. I am simply here asking questions to ensure i still meet the needs of the DIY crowd. Where did i ask you to pay me 2 times dealer cost?


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

clbolt said:


> I don't blindly bash local shops. I've had friends who owned car audio stores, and I absolutely buying from a local shop where the staff are knowledgeable and helpful. However, if I find idiocy or elitism when I go into a shop, I'll warn people away from them.
> 
> That said, there's one car audio store that I was forced to deal with when I worked at the car dealership. The service was so bad, and the staff so blatantly unhelpful, that I told my boss I wouldn't piss on the owner's head if he was on fire. That finally got my point across, and I was allowed to take our work elsewhere. I absolutely won't tolerate substandard work done to my customer's cars.


I agree there are a LOT of crap shops out there. I am just one guy with one shop wanting to do the best i can and trying to learn what i can do in my little part of the world. I have 2 of the best installers i have been able to find working with me and pay them more than i make to ensure i have quality staff to make sure this does not happen. I have yet to approach the dealerships in my area as i want to ensure i have ALL my ducks in a row for each dealership PRIOR to offering to do business with them.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

A few questions:



ptannjr said:


> I come on here and see DIY guys bashing the crap out of me (local shops, not me personally)...So many people on here want to buy from some pimple faced 17 year old kid that sells from his daddys garage... It seems this does not matter, you buy from the 16 year old that replaces him. As a guy that has dedicated my life to providing better sound to people i get pissed off at all these jack asses that think that every shop is out to rip you off.


Who exactly are you speaking of? Anyone on this site that has joined in the last six months or so doesn't count. The only retailers I have bought from on this particular forum are Don, Ant, Rudeboy, Rick, etc. and they are not "cheap" by any means.



ptannjr said:


> I will tell you this now, if you look back, there would be NO 12 Volt industry with out guys like me spending out lifes savings on stocking **** for ungratefull asses.


I appreciate your input, your time, and your shop but you have blanketed an entire forum for being "assholes". If that's how you feel, leave the internet. It's not gonna get any easier for you.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tintbox said:


> WOW!


Then another shop the boss knows how to make money [ He is great at it ].

Knows about advertising [a plus ].

He said i inspired him with Pete's install [ Pete did the install first time ever, guy was in his 70's  ].

I picked the speakers and some other stuff !

Pete modified his vehicle to get better sound based on my reccomendations.

I'd never drink with a shop owner [ They Cry rivers }


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

ptannjr said:


> Listen i am here not bitching but asking how to make my shop relevant to the DIY. I am sorry you are can not understand that. After all the shops are what built the industry. I am simply here asking questions to ensure i still meet the needs of the DIY crowd. Where did i ask you to pay me 2 times dealer cost?


You want to make your shop relevant?? You need to charge a similar price to what we can get online. I understand thats hard to do, but it needs to be done. As stated before, if you could get in the ballpark, say within 10-15 percent of the online vendors(20-30 dollars on a 200 dollar item) that would probably be enough to earn my business. When the local shop wants 6-700 dollars for an amp that I can get online for 350, they arent getting my business. I cant afford to pay the "premium" that comes along with the local shop even if they have knowledge, a big sound board so i can hear the speakers (even though they will sound completely different in my car anyway), a nice install bay, or anything else. The DIY crowd is all about value, and I dont feel I get that from a shop. the guy who doesnt have the ability to do his own install might get that value from you


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

I wanted to buy a set of components online for significantly less than what the shop was selling. They said they would get close, knowing they could do better. I decided to purchase at the shop even though they were 75 dollars more than the online price...plus tax. Does that make me a good guy? I don't feel any different. Ultimately, it's my money. That being said, I don't mind supporting local businesses. However, what I have against local shops is two main things. They are as follows: 1. Catering to the guy that wants 2 15's in a box, sitting in his trunk. 2. Not having the attention to detail that I have. 

I submitted a proposal to a local dealer to bid on what I wanted. I included prices I could get online including installation. He said he would give me his bid on the work I wanted. I followed up 2 or 3 times to see if he had done it, each time he said he would get to it. Never heard back...I gave up. At the same time, dumping massive subs in simple boxes with underpowered amplifiers. They don't want me, my type of audio guy, as a customer. 

The place that I actually had my install done at, they made pods for the tweeters. Well, the driver's side pod is tilted about 15 degrees more toward me than the passenger tweeter pod. I noticed it and mentioned it and the OWNER told me some line about the difficulties of stretching vinyl. What does that have to do with the pod being angled a lot more than the other? Attention to detail! That's just one of 2 or 3 things that bother me about my current install. All of it deals with detail. I feel like when I ask about something the way I want it done, I get the feeling like they think I'm geing unreasonable.

So, in the future, why wouldn't I buy online instead of paying retail prices if I'm only going to get that type of service. I'm not saying the guys that did my install are bad people, they just don't value the same things I value. They were the best shop in the area to do the work. Even so, where is the shop that thinks like I do...where they care as much about my install as I do. I'm not just a dollar bill. That's where I think car audio shops have gone wrong.

I could go on...but I wont. Hopefully, my point has been conveyed.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> ... I am looking to be able to set up to supply goods to Do It Yourself (DIY) guys as well as traditional retail. What is important to supply you or others as a DIY and what kind of premium are DIY guys willing to pay for the service?


Wiring goodies. I've had to tromp all over town to find stuff and still had to go online for some things. Heat shrink, slick tie downs, terminals, wire by the foot, etc. Heavy guage terminal crimpers, and/or even offer to crimp terminals. That's another thing I couldn't find locally, even at the best independent hardware stores.

But to your general concern, don't take the bashing personally cuz it's obviously not pointed at you. Other shops certainly do earn their abuse.

- D


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

King nothing you have given every reason why a shop owner should turn his back on a DIyer.
Luckily the DIY guys I have met are the exact opposite of your attitude.

At the Greensboro meet everyone was cordial polite and honest
Asking a simple question as a shop owner doesn't mean he is bitching.
I am on here , I have a shop, Im not bitching.
My shop is passionate about audio and it shows in our work .
I love making cars sound better and hearing the difference that different setups make.
Am i a big bad store owner who is out to get you all?
HARDLY
Neither is Ptannjr
nor are a lot of the guys on here who have shops.
Do yourself a favor. 
Give us the benefit of the doubt that you would expect us to give you.

and I will sell you all some router bits online too .. see I am the net too w00t!
lol


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

bamelanc said:


> However, what I have against local shops is two main things. They are as follows: 1. Catering to the guy that wants 2 15's in a box, sitting in his trunk.
> 
> .


So if another type of customer wants to have big bass in his trunk and rattle the hell out of his car < which might be his favorite way to enjoy HIS music btw>

the shop is wrong to help that customer get what he wants because you like something different?

really? 

The thing is everyone wants to be respected .
that includes people who are different than you.


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## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

bamelanc said:


> I submitted a proposal to a local dealer to bid on what I wanted. I included prices I could get online including installation.


How do you get online installation?


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

good question.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

g0a said:


> So if another type of customer wants to have big bass in his trunk and rattle the hell out of his car < which might be his favorite way to enjoy HIS music btw>
> 
> the shop is wrong to help that customer get what he wants because you like something different?
> 
> ...


Easy there Killer. Perhaps what I said was misunderstood. It's not that having 15's plopped in your trunk or your backseat is bad...it's what YOU want...or need...or can afford. It's that the dealership _caters_ that buyer. Not the higher maintenance SQ guy. That was my point.

When I was 16...I was the 2 15's (1991 Kicker comp 15's, with a Orion 280GX driven by a Sony (cassette) Walkman (with bass boost!) with Wal-Mart Roadmaster 3 way 6.5's...in a beat up 1975 Pointiac Grand Prix with red plush interior) in an unfinished box in my backseat guy. I used to be that guy. I stopped being that guy many years ago, but I can relate. 

My apologies if it was misinterpreted.


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> Start selling online as well. If I go to a brick and mortar it's because I need it now and am willing to pay for it. I don't bad mouth local shops. I understand overhead.
> 
> I could never understand why a shop couldn't start an online store and sell for the 5-10% over cost. Give an "online" warranty and increase your profit margin by the increase in quantity purchased from the manufacturer thereby garnering the decrease in price.


I totally agree. As it's been said already, you aren't in the business simply to make other people's lives easier, you are in the business to MAKE MONEY. With that being said, the nature of our wonderful invention of capitalism is increased competition, specifically in pricing. I guess you've gotta be willing to play their game to beat them at it.

I personally don't have enough money to really justify buying car audio anyways, therefore buying online to save a few bucks is right up my alley.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

No worries Bamelanc
Just putting the notion out that not every shop is that way
I have built some assholeishly loud systems 
and I have also built some great sounding systems IMHO.
The ability and desire to do both is in my hands.
I prefer SQ with the ability to blast if need be
Sorry If i came off harsh as well
Something you guys here might not understand is that the guys coming in here from the 12vinsider are some of the best shops I have ever seen.
Both in install talent and customer service.
Let's all grow together in the art of making cars better
there is much to be learned on both sides . 
If anyone here thinks they are a knowitall then have Patrick Bateman post something. 
he might know more than all of us.
=)Peace


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

g0a said:


> ... then have Patrick Bateman post something.
> he *might* know more than all of us.
> =)Peace


Don't kid yourself, Patrick Bateman most definitely does.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

AH but i know Winslow and Werewolf so I have backup =)

nyahh


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

g0a said:


> AH but i know Winslow and Werewolf so I have backup =)
> 
> nyahh


Is this tspence? :laugh:


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

BigAl205 said:


> Is this tspence? :laugh:


Off topic (sorry), but will somebody fill me in on what happened with him?


I'm assuming a PM would be required...


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

Hi tspence why did you change your username to bigal?


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

g0a said:


> Hi tspence why did you change your username to bigal?


:behead:


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

So who is tspence then?


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

g0a said:


> So who is tspence then?


He's bant...nevermind.


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

g0a said:


> King nothing you have given every reason why a shop owner should turn his back on a DIyer.
> Luckily the DIY guys I have met are the exact opposite of your attitude.


Please elaborate? Since I dont use the shop there is no back to turn. I would think the person the shop would want to turn their back on is the guy who comes in looking for advice, listens to the soundboard, uses the knowledge and time of the shop employees, then goes online to save the money. I do none of those things. i use this forum as a sounding board. I buy equipment and if I dont like it I sell it and buy something else. While the OP is looking for ways to make his shop relevant to the DIYer, perhaps it just isnt possible. Luckily for him the DIY segment is small fries. it was suggested that he carry wiring and wiring goodies, but if his price isnt competitive why bother? I simply will not pay 50 dollars at the shop for something i can get online for 25. My 2 systems would not be 1/2 of what they are without online purchases and used equipment, the DIY spirit. the amps in both my vehicles retailed for 900 dollars IIRC. I would never have been able to afford that yet I have nice equipment anyway


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

One way to make a B&M shop more attractive to DIYer's is to hold tweak and tune events and educational seminars in the evenings after the shop closes. This way they don't feel like they are being pressured to come in and buy. You may not getr any sale because of it in the beginning but over time you will get business due to word of mouth. Most of the time you won't actualy get a lot of business from the DIYer but you will get referrals from them to their friends and co-workers, mainly because when the friends discover how elaborate their systems are they'll want something simpler. The DIY person is a wierd beast and most of the time you will not make much money off of them. They are in this because they love it and are constantly tweaking their system. They are also DIY because they cannot afford to pay to have someone keep tweaking and changing things, it gets expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the DIYer, far from it. Most shops are started by these exact people. I look at it from both sides, having run shops for years and now being on the DIY side. I loved to have them as customers and to talk to but I never made real money off of the DIY crowd. They were some of my best unpaid sales people though.

Some have suggested that you sell on-line to compete but this is not possible for many retailers as a lot of the product lines that dealers carry have restrictions on where and how you can sell the product. Many prohibit on-line sales and will revoke your dealer liscense if you do so. Others have suggested that you sell at or near on-line prices. This is not possible as well. Once you pay for rent, payroll, insurance, advertising and other costs of having an actual store front most shops are lucky to have 5-8% profit. This doesn't mean that you can't ask them for a deal or a better price but for a shop owner to constantly price way below retail is a sure way to go out of business over time. Either that or you have to start cutting costs somewhere else and that ends up being in the install and labor end. This justs gets you known as the shop to get deals at but _'don't have anything installed there'_.

Really, there are no great answers. I would say that if the OP wishes to cater to the DIY crowd there are ways to do it that I showed above but it is not an easy road. The fact of the matter that it is the guy who wants the loud booming bass and doesn't care about sound quality who usually makes you the most money. They'll spend money on what makes you the best profit. What you try for is clients with money who are willing to spend for the convinience of not having to do it themselves and know what good sound is and want it. Getting an in with that crowd is difficult, it takes making connections through business networks, private clubs and other group adffiliations and getting the right referrals. It also takes time, usually 6 months to a year just to get it started, and dedication.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!! KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!! KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!!

Let me say it again, *KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!!*

I say this with such vehemence because I can't tell you how many times I've walked into a shop selling a high end piece of gear, usually in the form of processing/head units that I wanted to evaluate functionality for my own application, and been given VERY misleading information.

Here's the thing with DIYers. Usually we have an idea of what we want. You either have it or you don't. If I walk into a store, with a great big RF sign on the front door, and want to play with a 360.2, you'd better have VERY clear knowledge on what it can and can't do. If you don't then shut your mouth and let me do what I came in to do. If you feel like having a conversation about the piece, understand, I've probably read the manual as well, and if your ability to explain the piece only extends to having memorized the verbiage in the manual, I'm going to know, and you're going to irritate me. Because then you're just trying to sell me something and not provide me a service.

The service in this case? Letting me play with a piece of equipment so I can understand the true functionality before purchasing it. Service is answering questions that have not been answered by searching on the net. Those have value, and neither have I seen in any local shop. Usually, the high priced items that allow very fine tuning need to be ordered. Hell, at that point I can order it myself. 

I tried to give business to my local shops, but I just can't justify it any more.


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

SQisSCHWEEET!! said:


> First post


Come on man....


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Since the OP asked....

The year is 2007, I am working 12 to 14 hours a day. I consult a local shop that happens to have an old friend of mine managing it. It cost me just over $700 to have a 10" Memphis Power Reference Sub, pre-fab enclosure, and amplifier purchased/installed in my 2007 Honda Accord. I went through two of those Memphis Power Reference 2x75 watt amplifiers before my vehicle was finally totaled by a drunk driver.

Now, let's fast forward to 2008/2009. I own 2 vehicles and my fiancee has one of her own. I go asking the local shops for advice and was told NOT to change the factory tweeters in my 1997 Civic or her 2006 Tribute. Basically, they tried to sell me a coaxial driver which would be mounted so low, it would be firing straight into our ankles and run those factory tweeters off of head unit power. Keep in mind, this was the recommendation of 1/2 of the custom shops in my area!

When it came to my 2006 Mustang, they tried to talk me out of replacing the Shaker 500 subwoofers saying there was NOTHING that I could do that would sound better than those stock, POS, made in China, 8" "subwoofers."

Oh, here is another one. One of the local shops sold some poor college kid a 5 farad capacitor for his Civic and had him believing that it would make up for the fact that his vehicle has a 80 amp alternator pushing 2,000 watts RMS. I tried to tell him that he would be better off finding a HO alternator and a better battery, but he insisted that I was wrong and the shop was correct. He went through about 5 alternators before he finally decided to take me up on my advice.

Or, let's put the way back hats on when Rockford Fosgate and Thunder on Wheels were popular. One of the local shops, by default, would install ALL of their Punch amplifiers with the bass boost at 3/4 up and the treble at 1/2. Afterward, they would pull the knobs so that the customer couldn't make any adjustments. That must have been real good business for replacement subwoofers and tweeters due to extreme clipping. Till this day, I do not understand that philosophy, especially on amplifiers that were crossed over for subwoofers only. Why in the heck would one put the treble knob at 50% on a sub amp?

That, my friend, is why local shops get bashed. Many of them are helpless, money hungry, greed machines. Don't get me wrong, there are a few good shops out there, BUT, there are NOT enough good ones to overcome the bad.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

ptannjr said:


> I agree there are a LOT of crap shops out there. I am just one guy with one shop wanting to do the best i can and trying to learn what i can do in my little part of the world. I have 2 of the best installers i have been able to find working with me and pay them more than i make to ensure i have quality staff to make sure this does not happen. I have yet to approach the dealerships in my area as i want to ensure i have ALL my ducks in a row for each dealership PRIOR to offering to do business with them.


My honest opinion- I feel comfortable in saying that you are or will be one of the top shops in your region. The fact that you are here asking these questions, truly trying to understand the market for potentially the worst target audience you can have in car audio- tells me that you're not trying to pull one over on people. You are trying to provide better VALUE. For these things I salute you and wish you the best of luck and fortune. I wish more shops were as passionate as you are about helping people achieve great sound whether they install it or the customer does. 

I agree that good shops are few and far between and I agree on having an online department for those that just want the deal without the service may find a place in your business plan. I like the idea of the get-togethers, perhaps get a manufacturer to sponsor an event with perhaps a demo vehicle or two, have lots of install pics handy so that people understand all that goes into the install. I don't think people want better sound in there car until they HEAR better sound in a car. The fact that you have demo vehicles help, but putting them on a bigger platform can't hurt either.

There is one local shop that I have bought from in the past. I recommend them to everyone that wants something direct and painless- I prefer the long and painful road.  They always post the retail price and are quick to come down off it when you talk to them about a particular product. The longer a relationship you have with them, the better the deals become. 

Another guy that ran a local shop was an honest person and a good friend. I helped him out as a volunteer when he was busy and I always wanted to get stuff from him to support him. He just didn't do enough business and that was a shame.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

I remember meeting Mark Fore about 12 years ago at American Audio in SC.
This guy was the BEST sales person I have ever met. 
He let me lay in the floor of his high end Home audio SHop and listen to Planet B.E.N. on some B&W cdm1s for like 20 minutes
then when he took me in the room with the Wilson Watt puppies.. <8888.00 each mind you> , He handed me the remote,, said have fun and left and shut the door.
I have NEVER been so impressed by a sales person in ANY industry.
This guy never pushed never shoved never lied and if I had the money I would have bought from him at Retail on the spot.
However I didn't have the money and He told me to come back anytime and listen whenever I liked.
I wish I could emulate him and try my best to.

There are guys Just like that who DO Car audio .

Just figured Id share a positive story.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

I am one who wouldn't want to pay anymore for something I can listen to for 2 reasons:
1) It won't sound like the sound board in my car( like already mentioned)
2) The nature of this hobby is change and I know whatever I get I will change eventually (usually sooner then later) and I might as well get the cheapest I can.

I know everyone else on here is just like this, love trying new stuff in new configurations, ever chasing new boners or trying something out before everyone else.

I think minivanman said it best, know the product. when I , a DIYer guy asks a questions, it's because it's not clearly in the manual that I have already read.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I just thought of another dig against most of my local shops. 70% of them want to do pre-fab or drop-in solutions with little to no work on their part, yet they want to charge a fortune for the install. Two years ago I was looking to have one of the local shops build me an enclosure and TWO of the SIX stated they would design and build a custom enclosure that better fits my vehicle. The other four would only order some generic, pre-fab solution...

My point is... HOW can they call themselves a custom/specialty shop when all they do is install stuff in factory locations and utilize pre-fab subwoofer enclosures? That is something I expect from Best Buy but not from a specialty, car audio only, dealership.

ETA: I forgot to tell some of the outrageous price quotes for installs. 

Head units - $50 provided you purchase it from them along with all the install kits/harnesses/etc. at a HUGE markup. If you provide your own gear, they charge $75 to $150 depending on features to install with one's radio (bluetooth, ipod, reverse camera, etc.)

Amplifiers - $75 per amplifier. If you go active, there is a PER amplifier install fee. 

Subwoofers - $50 to install the subwoofer in that drop-in, made in China, pre-fab enclosure.

Door speakers - $75 to $150 per pair of doors. Again, this is dependent on if the speaker drop-in or require any additional effort, trimming, etc. on their part. Prepare to pay more if they have to use a spacer, build a baffle, etc.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> My point is... HOW can they call themselves a custom/specialty shop when all they do is install stuff in factory locations and utilize pre-fab subwoofer enclosures? That is something I expect from Best Buy but not from a specialty, car audio only, dealership.


Great point. Drop in is a dead give away of their lack of appreciation of SQ.


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## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> Start selling online as well. If I go to a brick and mortar it's because I need it now and am willing to pay for it. I don't bad mouth local shops. I understand overhead.
> 
> I could never understand why a shop couldn't start an online store and sell for the 5-10% over cost. Give an "online" warranty and increase your profit margin by the increase in quantity purchased from the manufacturer thereby garnering the decrease in price.


Most Manufaturers will drop you if you sell things at 5-10% over cost. Not to mention a lot of the internet stuff is B stock.


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## impact (Oct 6, 2009)

This is a very sore subject here in Hawaii also. Many shops complain about customers buying online and what they can do to stop that but the one thing they need to see is IT ISN'T GONNA HAPPEN. I am a shop owner and yes it sucks to know that people will buy online VS local and yes there are things we as a retailer can do to help stray them away from online purchasing but most of the shops I know aren't willing to do or aren't capable of doing so. To the OP it sounds like you are setup very similar to my shop ( specialty shop) and I think that is the way the industry should be going now. I sell a few brands that offer great quality and performance but those brands also have products in every price point. To me that shows the customers that you BELIEVE in your products and aren't out to make a big profit and be a walmart where as some shops will stock 30 different brands that sell the same type of products at the same price and all that matters is which will make more profit. I'm not knocking on those types of shops cause it is a business but thats not my style. I don't stock dash kits, premade enclosures, speaker baffles and such, everything is made in house. I also do everything in my shop ALONE from installs to sales answering phones and anything in between. I find most of my customers appreciate that because they know that the person they are talking to is the person working on thier car and in my opinion you NEED install experience to offer an awesome sales experience to a customer. Use that to your advantage over the online retailers, yes customers can get alot of useful info from sites like these and there is nothing wrong with that but nothing hits them more than a personal experience with a shop that has the knowledge and is willing to give them that one on one feel. Even if they use you to get info or demo products and then go buy it online its ok as long as they walk out of your shop saying " wow that guy really knows his stuff and was cool to talk to" . If you can do that they'll be back evenutally and even if they just buy a RCA, thats one more customer you just made an impression on and thats 10 bucks more than you had. Just remember that the industry as an entirety is changing and we need to adapt and we can't win um all but we can damn sure try. I wish you the best of luck in your business and hope that your customers can see the type of service you can offer them!


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I called a shop an hour away to ask if they had any 2 way comp. that where on the bright side, I was stepping away from a 3way active front stage thinking that would give me some credit, He told me they have some pioneers that are clean.... I asked if they where bright he replied yes, they are clean..... to me knowing what your talking about is half the battle with local shops

Another... I walked into a much closer store (the one that did the glass inline fuse) and asked if the routed their baffles or did em free handed with a jig saw b/c I was willing to pay to have one perfect.... he said we do them with a jig saw, the uneven ridges in the mdf by doing them free handed help lock it in.

B freakin S! give me a cnc cut baffle any day idiot, second followed by a router, third a jig saw


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## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Here's an example of my recent situation. I'm looking to buy an Eclipse CD7200 MKII. I looked on eclipse site to see who has it local, because i figured, authorized dealer and whatnot. the only one thats really authorized online is Crutchfield, and its very high there.

out of the 7 shops i called in the Chicago area that im willing to go to, literally none had it. 3 said they dont even carry eclipse anymore.

1 and only one offered to see if they could order it, but admittedly never heard of it. He calls me back 10 minutes later, and is like "buddy this this isnt even out yet".

Im like come on man, its been out since 2008. He's like, "omg, im gonna kill my rep"

Anyways, he's like retail is $549. You want me to see if i can get it? Im like not at that price, plus tax. no way in hell.

I told him thats crutchfield crazy ass price, but at least with them, theres no tax, and i can lay a big turd on top of it and they'll still take it back if i dont want it. plus i have a coupon! lol

He's like, get it from crutchfield then. I'm like cool, thanks for nothing.

I tried.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Speaking of Crutchfield.... they actually beat my two local JL Audio dealers on the Stealthbox for my Mustang GT by $150 or so. One wanted MSRP and the other wanted above MSRP.

Crutchfield also beat my local Alpine dealer when I purchased two 9885s in 2007. The local dealer wanted $299 plus tax for the deck only whereas Crutchfield charged $249.99 per deck including the harness and installation kits. 

Unfortunately Best Buy was only selling the 9886 by that point in time and they were REALLY pushing the iPod only Alpine as the next best thing.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

I build 99% of the boxes we sell =)
only one I didnt is the new DD loaded box.
and all the labor prices posted are way higher than mine. =)
guess I am the exception not the norm.


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## impact (Oct 6, 2009)

^^^ I believe that is the way to go, just one more thing to set yourself apart from the competition. By the way how are the DD loaded boxes, I was thinking of bringing a few in but the shipping to Hawaii sucks. Those are probably the only premades I'd consider stocking in the shop


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

aphexacid said:


> Here's an example of my recent situation. I'm looking to buy an Eclipse CD7200 MKII. I looked on eclipse site to see who has it local, because i figured, authorized dealer and whatnot. the only one thats really authorized online is Crutchfield, and its very high there.
> 
> out of the 7 shops i called in the Chicago area that im willing to go to, literally none had it. 3 said they dont even carry eclipse anymore.
> 
> ...


The Eclipse rep here in Chicago is stunningly stupid. I don't imagine there's more than one, but I've had personal run ins with him. I love Eclipse equipment, but he's an idiot.

He's actually the primary reason I shouted "KNOW YOUR PRODUCT!!!" so often.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

The first piece of equipment I ever purchased was some Alpine coaxials from Autographics in Bridge City, Tx. Mark Fukuda sold them to me. I put them on a Coustic 108. I didn't have much...I mean, any money back then and I definitely didn't know anything about car audio either. That was a pretty good shop,I visited them many times. Fast forward 16 years and I recently had Elite Ridez in Lumberton, Tx. do my work for me. After going to all the shops in the area, I felt they had the best products, the most product knowledge and were closest in line with my personal car audio idiology.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

impact said:


> ^^^ I believe that is the way to go, just one more thing to set yourself apart from the competition. By the way how are the DD loaded boxes, I was thinking of bringing a few in but the shipping to Hawaii sucks. Those are probably the only premades I'd consider stocking in the shop


The new DDLE enclosures are pretty nice Looking
sound good too,Of course with DD in them i expected that.

Freight would be the only downside.
good luck bro


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

schmiddr2 said:


> Most people here are not into bashing on the local shops. The catch 22 is, the wealth of information and variety of product reviews online far exceeds that of most shop owners/employees.
> 
> "What do you DIY guys expect from local shops?"
> *You must compete with the internet in 2 ways. One is in pricing*.


If B&M shops competed with the internet in pricing then everything would go to crap. products would be made cheaper. it's the race to zero. Internet dealers order in MASS quantites where they are able to purch stuff cheaper B&M stores can't compete with that. not to mention the places that aren't authorized to sell are getting it sideways and don't care what they sell it for.



cubdenno said:


> Start selling online as well. If I go to a brick and mortar it's because I need it now and am willing to pay for it. I don't bad mouth local shops. I understand overhead.
> 
> I could never understand why a shop couldn't start an online store and sell for the 5-10% over cost. Give an "online" warranty and increase your profit margin by the increase in quantity purchased from the manufacturer thereby garnering the decrease in price.


see what i said above and adding to it not all lines are allowed to be sold online. that's what makes certain lines more distintive then others. you don't see everyone selling lambo's everywhere do you? hell to get a new one you have to be on a list.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

I am not 'bashing' all Mom and Pop shops ...I'm sure there are good ones but I haven't seen any in a long time. Local shops treat everyone like idiots and usually don't have a clue. Example ...I was in a local shop looking for 'high end' amps ...they asked what I was looking for and I told them mainly McIntosh. They actually had the balls to try to sell me JL and told me that JL amps were better than McIntosh. 



MiniVanMan said:


> KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!! KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!! KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!!
> 
> Let me say it again, *KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!!*
> 
> ...



I could not have said it better. When someone comes in looking for something specific you can usually bet that they are very familiar with that product ...don't try to BS.

I've driven 5-6 hours round trip to audition speakers / amps. I know what I can get equipment for online before I go shopping locally. I will pay a little more to take it home ...but I'm not paying 2-3X online prices just because a Mom and Pop store has a higher overhead.

Audio is a hobby of mine and people know it. So, I naturally get people coming by to help me with their systems. Mainly 'after the fact' ...they bought locally ...had it installed 'professionally' ...now there are problems and the local shop can't fix it or they are giving them the 'runaround'. I have seen installs that looked like a retarded 10yo did it. Connections that are just 2 wires twisted together with some electrical tape on it. Speakers that don't fit ...dashes scratched / broken. The list is endless. Local shops also don't listen to the customer ...the sell people a bunch of crap that they don't need ...they don't take the time to explain to the customer how to operate the system. Plus they charge WAY more than you can buy it for elsewhere.

Local shops offer NOTHING that I need. Most are in the 'boom and doom' business and if you want anything 'nice' they can 'order it'. So ...why would I pay retail for something that I can't see or take home with me. I might as well 'order it' on line. I don't need 'service' ...I prefer to buy quality products that don't need a 'warranty'. I'm also in a good position financially so I can take a hit if I buy something online from an unauthorized dealer and it 'craps out'. That is a risk I take ...but it has never happened. 

The good / bad is that the internet is the best / worst thing that has happened for MANY things. Information is so easily available ...products that you would never find locally are just a click away. 30 years ago I had to deal with local shops ...and must admit that there were MUCH better shops back then.



g0a said:


> So if another type of customer wants to have big bass in his trunk and rattle the hell out of his car < which might be his favorite way to enjoy HIS music btw>
> 
> the shop is wrong to help that customer get what he wants because you like something different?
> 
> ...


I agree with that ...but if the shop is failing ...then they need to go another route because the 'boom and doom' kids aren't paying the bills.

>^..^<


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## kingby (Nov 3, 2009)

We have good and bad shops around where I live. The bottom line is that a brick and mortar store cannot compete strictly on price with a "little overhead, high volume internet seller". So the brick and mortar's need to add value in other ways to compete.

My take it the OP was simply asking what would that "Value Add" be for him to earn more business to the DIYer.

I would be willing to pay a little more for real honest advice based on personal experience, that would truly benefit my specific needs. I would be willing to pay a little more for real world listening environments (demo cars) that resembled my personal listening environment. I would be willing to pay a little more for customer service that allowed my time and headaches to be alleviated during the buying experience.

I am not saying I would pay double, but that a 10 to 15% premium for real value added service would be reasonable to me. There are going to be instances where there is no value that can be added by a brick and mortar, and the internet purchase will make more sense, but not always.


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## Lekwid (Dec 2, 2009)

I always buy online. Online is killing brick and mortor. Cheaper prices online vs steep prices in store, online wins. Online more selection vs in store limited selection. Nuff said.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

I support the local shops for the usual reasons: supporting the local economy, immediate access to stocked items and advice when I need it. I also shop online a lot to learn what is possible and get ideas, but often do the opposite of others - shop online and buy local. When I do buy online it's usually because I couldn't find the item locally or because I'm buying a used item.

- D


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## Operator (Nov 11, 2009)

SirMilo said:


> Nobody is in business NOT to make money...... most people realize this.
> I don't bash local shops but will set the stage why I don't care for SOME of the local shops. It is not uncommon to walk into a local shop in this area knowing substantially more than the people who are employed there- *This is probably one of the biggest issues*.
> Some stores don't want to know how they can help you- they know what you want and expect you to purchase something you don't want or need. Example: I went into 5-6 local stores asking about IB capable subwoofers and Head Units. 1 store tries to sell me a high dollar sub that definitely would not work in an IB setup (strike one). 2 different stores told me they would need to do some research (I'm OK with that), but of course couldn't be bothered to ever get back with me (strike 2). There was another store that flat out told me every speaker needs a box (strike 3).
> On the head units, I made it very clear what my needs were and nothing short of those requirements would work. Of course, again, multiple people tried to sell me items that wouldn't work for my application.


Well said! I have been burned by some B&M shops while some have gained my business on mulitple occasions after showing the good work they can do. But I have to be honest, online prices win out for me. I even go the used route to save more money in some situations. Often times the money shops are asking for entry level equipment could get me middle to high end equipment online. Another point that catches my attention, is the lack of knowledge some shops have on non-big-name car audio products. It's as if the only things they know about are RF, Kicker, JL, Alpine, Pioneer, etc..... DD, Fi Audio, ARC, Image Dynamics, etc are unknown to alot of the B&M shops I've been to.


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## ChristianM (Jun 15, 2009)

agreed, i usally do end up shopping locally for small installation item but in temrs of equipment, they usually are not worth the cost! I tried to buy my bitone.1 locally and of all the stores i called, very few have even heard of audison and the others did not know what a bit one was. One store said they can get it for me and install(without tuning) for 1100 dollars! Ots rediculous when you think of some of the prices they charge when they do not know about the product a customer wants. Granted, there are a few knowledgeable shops in my area i will buy some equipment from but generally online wins. Besides, as everyone else here im always urgrading and changing parts, i though my last setup was the greatest and it could be upgraded, 6months later and almost everythign brand new, i still think the same thing but i will enevitably change it again. The sad truth is that yes there are very few shops that actually know what they are doing and i would warrant the extra money, but 1200 for my JL HD750 amp couldnt compete with the online price of 600 with warranty and a personal frind of mine selling it BNIB for even less than that! i duno, just my 2cents on the subject


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

I carry DD Hertz Audison and Eclipse


My tinter is sponsored by ID 

My other tech is a hardcore Dynaudio nut.

we dont know anything =)


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## vtvette (Dec 1, 2009)

Lekwid said:


> I always buy online. Online is killing brick and mortor. Cheaper prices online vs steep prices in store, online wins. Online more selection vs in store limited selection. Nuff said.


Agreed - the dynamics of the industry are changing.

Like many industries. 

You adapt, or you die. It's that simple. 

Customers dictate what they want to buy, and how and where they are willing to spend their money.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

I love all the 1 post guys that happen to find this thread out of the entire forum
lol


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

YouTube - JibJab - Big Box Mart


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

g0a your my hero for that vid that's exactly what's its coming down to


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## ChristianM (Jun 15, 2009)

that was hillarious but sadly, that is the economy we live in, we all want something for less


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## Operator (Nov 11, 2009)

g0a said:


> I carry DD Hertz Audison and Eclipse
> 
> 
> My tinter is sponsored by ID
> ...


"some shops" Didn't say yours, or no shops....


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

sam3535 said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sam, I dont think i have say ANY ONE was an *******. What i have said is


> As a guy that has dedicated my life to providing better sound to people i get pissed off at all these jack asses that think that every shop is out to rip you off. I will tell you this now, if you look back, there would be NO 12 Volt industry with out guys like me spending out lifes savings on stocking **** for ungratefull asses. We work hard to keep a good inventory instock so that people can come in and get what they need when they need it. This costs us money. We work hard on introducing products that you may not know about and this costs us money. We work hard on maintaing demo vehicles so that you may come and hear the product to order it off line and this costs us money.


 So please dont put words into my mouth that i did not say. Where did i say this forum entire forum was full of being assholes?


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

MiniVanMan said:


> KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!! KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!! KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!!
> 
> Let me say it again, *KNOW YOUR PRODUCTS!!!*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input, training our staff is something we do try to do all the time.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Since the OP asked....
> 
> The year is 2007, I am working 12 to 14 hours a day. I consult a local shop that happens to have an old friend of mine managing it. It cost me just over $700 to have a 10" Memphis Power Reference Sub, pre-fab enclosure, and amplifier purchased/installed in my 2007 Honda Accord. I went through two of those Memphis Power Reference 2x75 watt amplifiers before my vehicle was finally totaled by a drunk driver.
> 
> ...


I agree that there are ALOT of hack shops out there, but there are a large number of quality guys as well. As for suggesting coaxials, or over all speaker replacements. here is one way i handle things. last night i have a lady come in looking for a keyless entry system for her duaghter for christmas. i show her what is available for a keyless entry then move to show here the benefits and cost differences of doing a full basic security system. Then we move to her asking about a radio for her daughter as well. I go over and show her a number of radios and explain the differences and benifits of a unit i with bluetooth to give here hands free cell phone, dual USB inputs so that they can use a usb thumbdrive, portable hard drive or simply their iPod. I spent a good 35-45 minutes on this and did not close the sale then. What i did is educate and demo for her and give her things to think about rather just buying blindly. She will be back in the next week to buy. To me that is one of the things that a small stocking local retailer can offer. If this same person goes on line and sees "all shops are crooks out to rip you off" from enough people it may make her just not do ANYTHING or just go to bestbuy rather than trust small shops. In her case i can only hope and stand on the fact i spend good time with her, go over her needs and wants, show options available, explain and help understand the benefits and advantages of each choice. I also have a group of 3 guys that are all DIY guys in our area that travel in a pack and all do the same products as a group. I have spent over 12 hours (so far) in total with these guys to help educate them and show them things. We are into process of a big build on a H2 that i keep them informed of as it has the product i want them to use in it. The return on the sale compared to the time will be low but i spend the time as they are industry enthusiast that love music. We all share that passion. That is why i spend that time. I think that i am hitting a number of the things that you are all asking a local shop to do to provide for DIY shops. But i still ask to make sure i stay on top of the game with DIYers. It just still gets to me when i experience the "us against them" between DIYers and shops.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

all the local shops around here that I have actually been in all charge 3x or more for their stuff and they dont know anything....so I guess your shop is a better one...

last time I went in one last year I bought a cage for my alpine and they sold me the wrong one even after I told them what I needed....

so..I dont go in them


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## vtvette (Dec 1, 2009)

g0a said:


> I love all the 1 post guys that happen to find this thread out of the entire forum
> lol


In my case I came here to learn about car audio which I know little about. 

I needed one post to view some threads. 

I did not find a thread on car audio I felt qualified to answer or reply to. 

Business however, I have decades of experience.

Plus, this thread is much more a series of opinions than it is any quantifiable advice or solutions for either the local shop striving to survive nor the online retailer who is costing them sales.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I had my g/f shopping for a Christmas gift for me,... since the new si sub seems to not be hitting the shelves any time soon.... I thought of this post as soon as she told me about it.....

I asked her to price a jl 13tw5 local..... she asked what to do so I said call up and say "I'm shopping for a Christmas gift for my b/f.... He's looking for a jl 13tw5, what is the best you can do....." his reply, "thats going to have to be special ordered, and it's going to be full retail" then he comes back on the phone.... thats going to be 500.00....... 


wtf its 347 on ebay, your not stocking the item and you want to make 150 bucks to hand it to her? unless jl makes the dealers sell at full retail?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

turbo5upra said:


> I had my g/f shopping for a Christmas gift for me,... since the new si sub seems to not be hitting the shelves any time soon.... I thought of this post as soon as she told me about it.....
> 
> I asked her to price a jl 13tw5 local..... she asked what to do so I said call up and say "I'm shopping for a Christmas gift for my b/f.... He's looking for a jl 13tw5, what is the best you can do....." his reply, "thats going to have to be special ordered, and it's going to be full retail" then he comes back on the phone.... thats going to be 500.00.......
> 
> ...


IIRC, JL Audio has minimum advertised pricing but you can always order it directly from JL if you wish to pay MSRP. Although I could be wrong, I believe the only JL item that one WILL NOT receive much of a break on is their Stealthboxes. Many of those are on a made to order basis and almost no one can afford to stock them.

It could always be worse because one of my two local authorized JL dealers marks their products ABOVE MSRP then comes down to MSRP if someone balks at the price. Don't get me wrong, I understand marking the price up for that in store credit financing BS. OTOH, I feel that trying to get above MSRP for someone who pays via cash, check, or debit card is just flat out WRONG!


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

ptannjr said:


> Sam, I dont think i have say ANY ONE was an *******. What i have said is So please dont put words into my mouth that i did not say. Where did i say this forum entire forum was full of being assholes?


I did not say that you called anyone an *******; you implied it with your initial post. I am not the only one who inferred that message as seen by numerous other responses. Maybe I should have typed jack ass like you did.

At the end of the day, this is primarily a DIY forum and has been since its inception. Do It Yourself (DIY) types need what they ask for, not a shop employee trying to steer them to something else.

You asked why people feel the way they do about B&M shops and you got your answer. Again, I thank you for your time and efforts and it is obvious that you are not the typical shop owner that most customers have encountered.


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## luke81 (Mar 20, 2009)

ChristianM said:


> agreed, i usally do end up shopping locally for small installation item but in temrs of equipment, they usually are not worth the cost! I tried to buy my bitone.1 locally and of all the stores i called, very few have even heard of audison and the others did not know what a bit one was. One store said they can get it for me and install(without tuning) for 1100 dollars!


So where did you get your Bitone?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

If I had more money than time, I'd go to Bing and have him do my car right. But, I have the inverse of that, more time than money...so I do things myself. 

Others may be in my boat, or they may have tons of each and just not want to fool with it all. I say if you can do a great job and cover the details, then by all means you deserve the business and the profit that goes with it.

IMO if you can't get within 10% of Sonic's or Woofersetc price on items they are auth. dealers on,...there is not a reason to purchase locally... + Tax no less!


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## ChristianM (Jun 15, 2009)

luke81 said:


> So where did you get your Bitone?


i was only debating the idea of a bitone.1, i always wanted it bud didnt have the cash to shell out for it or the Zapco DSP6, i ended up getting it used online at a price i couldnt pass up, and it was someone local to me so i just drove down and met him


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

sam3535 said:


> I did not say that you called anyone an *******; you implied it with your initial post. I am not the only one who inferred that message as seen by numerous other responses. Maybe I should have typed jack ass like you did.
> 
> At the end of the day, this is primarily a DIY forum and has been since its inception. Do It Yourself (DIY) types need what they ask for, not a shop employee trying to steer them to something else.
> 
> You asked why people feel the way they do about B&M shops and you got your answer. Again, I thank you for your time and efforts and it is obvious that you are not the typical shop owner that most customers have encountered.


Sam, as i stated in my initial post Sangria had a bit to do with my first post. Speaking straight from my mind. I think i was very careful to make sure i did not imply ALL DIY guys are a problem. i stated that i see SO MANY posts that bash us. I agree i am not the typical shop. I feel we fight for and earn every dollar that comes in. I feel service is the single most important thing in ANY business, not just audio. Many people go out to get a nice steak dinner for a cost that far exceed the cost of doing it at home. I feel that is the one thing people will pay for, great service. I think that is the single most important thing ANY local business must do.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Wow, where to begin ? Honestly no clue and sadly been down this route so much it is more regular now that my bowel movements !

First and foremost as many already know I AM a retailer. I am also a national sales manager and regional sales manager for several select lines. I've been 'in' this industry since around '88. What does that mean ? Waaaaay before the internet. Crutchfield mags were the 'thing' if you wanted some gear for home or car. Ragardless of cost, that was your in to get things without leaving the house.

Ok, so Im ranting. So let's put it into better perspective,

WE are the ones that set the benchmark for the internet. Without retailers this little hobby of ours would have never formed so largely. Would it be sold on the net ? Sure, your neighbors panties are on there too ! BUT with the size and demand be so large ? Of course not.

WE are the origins of many etailers now. You think they woke up in the morning with a brilliant idea of selling car audio online ? Many of them somehow came from a retail business in some capacity and saw a way to sideways make more money and less work. American dream ? Hell, it is everyones dream. 

WE look you in the face when we take your money.

WE are not a click to buy operation.

WE actually know what we are selling rather than what has the largest profit margin or is overstocked.

WE select the products we offer you, again, Not what is going to turn the most coin.

WE are there when you have a problem. IF by chance we are not, then the manufacturer is to help you.

 WE have overhead and need to keep inventory. As small as a wiring harness to as large as $2k component sets. We pay for that from our pocket.

WE work very long hours to make sure it is done right and you are satisfied. We dont let a computer do the selling for us and it surely does not install.

I can surely continue, but why ? Some minds may be altered, the majority will not. If you buy online, unauthorized mind you, you are taking a risk. Simple, cut and clean. 

For legitimate authorized online sales will I compete with the prices to make you happy ? Absolutely ! For unauthorized ? Sorry, no. Will I still try my best to keep your business ? Absolutely. Will I lie, cheat, steal to do so ? Again, sorry, but no. 

Do I always sell at full retail ? No. I work hard for money just as much as everyone else. I understand the value of a buck and expect for everyone to be treated fairly. I have even taken a few personal hits when giving an inaccurate quote. Did I ask the cliet to pony up ? Never ! My fault, my loss. 

Some good advice when dealing with a local retailer ... Talk to us like normal people. We are not animals or out to screw anyone. Please, I mean really Please do not start out with "well I can get it online for $ XXX" It's a turn off, really. I and Im sure most others would be 100% Less inclined to help when you start that way. 

My typical business model starts out asking what the budget to work with is and what theyre desires are. From there we can move on. Someone that doesnt tell me what they want, honestly, I cannot recommend anything. " I got $200 to spend" will stay that way until they tell me their goals. If no goal is set, then how can I provide a suggestion ? Do etailers do this ? Of course not. Do the work yourself, then click to buy. Yes, of course you can read a million reviews, but does that tell you what YOUR ears will hear ? Of course not, that is our job to show you and let you hear yourself.

I have spent countless hours with people both in person and via phone trying to help them knowing either A: They did not have the money to spend now, B: I could not ship to them, C: They were already working with a dealer and just wanted some advice, etc ... Do I consider it wasted time ? No way shape or form. I have helped someone achieve their goal. Did I make anything ? Nope, not a cent. Was it still worth it ? Every single time !

I as well as many others take great pride in what we do. Why shouldnt we be compensated for it ? It IS our job. Do you haggle with the woman at Macy's for your new Jeans ? Your dentist when he is working on your childrens teeth ? Your local coffee shop for a cup of Joe ? Then why us ?

For the DIY guys ... I love ya all ! I am technically a DIYer myself and always will be. Difference is I do it daily and for Alot of different people. My 'job' = Hobbyist with a modest paycheck. Just dont be so hard on us B&M guys.


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## 2500hd (Aug 22, 2009)

I would have to say that the average DIYer = not your target market.

I do admire you fellars for being in the industry though, I know how hard it is to be a competitive small business. My girlfriend owns a retail clothing store, and it's pretty ridiculous trying to compete with big companies that can order in huge bulk and sell at crazy prices. I can only imagine how hard it must be in car audio..geez


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## Topdown (Aug 12, 2009)

I am not going to bash the local shops, but when I go into a local shop and my wife knows more about stereo gear - any of it - than the sales guy who is wearing slacks, tie and slicked back hair...

I am walking out. 

no chance in hell I am paying more than online prices so that I can pay the salary of some dipshit that didnt do his homework.

MVM is 100% right - know your products

the last time I had someone else do an install for me, it was someone that I had known for nearly a decade. I had seen him do installs when he first started, gotten to know his mind when it comes to custom installs, saw/heard his own vehicle and his own install (which was stunning in both respects). 

I went to him after he retired and had come back to manage a local shop (George was his name). I had some pretty specific requirements for my gear - needed to be 100% magnetically shielded for example. I went to him and we talked for a while... he introduced me to his "best" installer... I ended up spending 1800.00 on the install/tuning alone.

I TRUSTED him... He knew his products, he knew the industry, he knew what he was talking about, knew what I was talking about... that made 100% of the difference.

When Polk audio made me custom speakers to meet my needs for that install, they earned my trust... why? because they talked to me, I asked them questions, they answered them and actually called ME to make sure they had everything right.

Knowing your products, not being arrogant (even if you have done AMAZING things), taking time to educate your customers, not just screw them on whatever makes you money... THATS what makes us DIY'ers willing to spend money on you, your shop, your products, etc... If you treat us like were stupid because we ask you questions - go **** yourself, I hope you go out of business. If you treat me with respect, even if I am being an idiot (even telling me I am being an idiot and WHY), I will be back and when I need something that I cant/dont want to wait a week to get shipped to me, I will hit your place first, guaranteed.


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## clbolt (Jan 9, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Some good advice when dealing with a local retailer ... Talk to us like normal people. We are not animals or out to screw anyone. Please, I mean really Please do not start out with "well I can get it online for $ XXX" It's a turn off, really. I and Im sure most others would be 100% Less inclined to help when you start that way.


That paragraph hits home with me. Anyone who's been in sales knows how frustrating it is when somebody starts the "I can get it for $XXX here". I never mention online pricing when I shop with a B&M store, because it's not a level playing field. If I can speak with the retailer intelligently for long enough, I may ask what's the best he can do, but I don't bring the internet into it.

When I was selling new Toyotas, they taught us the first day to never discuss price on the lot. If you're showing cars to a customer on the first walk-through, and they ask for the price, you point to the sticker and recite the price. In most instances, if you have a real buyer, they'll stay with you and won't bring up the subject again until you sit down to talk terms. If they do, you use the same technique again. On the third query, you lok them in the eye and say" I know that you're concerned about the price. Everything has it's price, and you need to find the best deal you can. I'm the same way. However, my job is to find the car that matches your needs the best, because the price doesn't matter if we don't find the right car for you. I promise that once we've found that car, my managers are going to make you the best deal they can".

That's the way I feel about the local B&M stores. Let's forget about ourselves for a moment, and I'll just say it's my mother shopping for a new head unit for her Saturn. Mom knows nothing about car audio, and she's be completely lost looking at the sound board. A salesperson in a B&M store would ideally ask her enough questions about herself and her vehicle to make a few educated suggestions about product. She'd look at those suggestions, and ask a few questions of her own. That banter would lead to her making a good decision on a head unit, and although she'd likely pay MSRP plus installation, she'd be happy with her purchase. Knowing that she'd been really helped by that salesperson and the store, I'd be happy about her purchase as well. The unfortunate fact is that there are a lot of shops that don't operate in such a manner, and they push crap at inflated prices. I've been fortunate enough to have friends who were great help with product selection, and I've purchased a lot of equipment from them. That's what a B&M needs to offer to stay afloat, but customer service is a rare commodity these days.

Now for the DIYMA crowd; when it comes to car audio, 90% of us are not consumers. Period. We know exactly what we want. We spend hours online searching for that perfect piece we need, then look to find it cheaper. We buy obscure extinct brands from dusty mail-order warehouses for pennies on the dollar. We trade equipment amongst ourselves as a currency. However, in real dollars, 90% of us contribute very little to the economy in our audio shopping.

Hell, I've considered myself a non-consumer for a long time. I'll be content wringing the next hundred thousand miles out of my Tercel every time I drive it for the rest of my life. At some point I'll buy something as a toy car, but it will be a cheap initial investment and I won't finance it. The only way I intend to put my signature on a finance agreement on another car will be for my wife's next one, but that won't be anytime soon.


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## PriusNnyc (Nov 6, 2009)

Hey - first post here, but thought I could chime in. Timely in fact. Here is MY recent local experience from just the other day:

Walk into local shop that is carrying a product I want to listen to. The owner gets to talking to me, very fast and very "used car-like" (for lack of a better term) - obviously knows his stuff and knows that I don't. Yes, I'm a newbie. That's why I'm here trying to learn.

But before I know it, he's quoting me $1800 for a HU, rear coax speakers (Hertz), hushmat in the front doors, and odds and ends with installation (including installation). Mind you, he'd be using my already purchased amp and front speakers. And he NEVER played stuff for me or asked me to listen to anything. 

I wasn't sure, but he asked me to leave a deposit of $500. So, I obliged. Then decided the next day it was just too much. I called to cancel, but he then tells me that my deposit is non-refundable. (!!!) Is that typical of you guys in shops!? If so, that is some bad business my friends...

And of course now, I'm trying to get out with ONLY spending $500 - he's still trying to sell me on stuff to get me closer to $1000: 
me: "How much for a custom fiberglass box for a sub"
him" "That's going to run around $1,200"

me: "Well, how much is the Kenwood x993 you're offering me?
him: "$380 - plus $50 for the ipod cable"

him again: "if we JUST do the HU, amp, and front speakers - without hushmat - it'll run like $1100"

me: (thinking) "This guy is ripping me off."

You can't offer products vastly over what you can get online. Don't try to justify it, it won't work. Service and installation is another thing. I don't mind paying for someone to do the job "right" but of course, but the cost has to be reasonable. What does "reasonable" mean? Inline with other normal operating practices: if he wants to charge me $100 an hour for installation, and I think he does a good job, around here maybe it's worth it. 

But of course, now I don't trust the guy. So, somebody want tell me how to proceed, eh?


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## Bs GTI (Dec 4, 2009)

I am a newb. 

I actually just got my car set up yesterday by a local shop and was charged above what I can get the hardware for online. I accepted this as payment for consultation. 

One thing I would like to add, I really liked the owner of the shop and was the only reason I stayed and went for it. He spent the time to design the system, drew it out, and explained exactly how it was going to work for my budget. 

MY opinion based on my experience:
However, prior to negotiations (I refuse to call this haggling because it's business, not personal), the price of the system was STEEP. I am sorry, to charge retail prices for hardware--not very many people will do this. MSRP stand for manufacture suggested retail price--for the educated folks, we all know it's a high price ceiling set artificially to either take advantage of people like myself or for people who negotiate. It's just good marketing practice. Car dealerships go through the same thing--people sell cars to ignorant customers and still have to smile about it--that's why there is commission (incentive). We all understand there is no free lunch. 

Someone mentioned that we usually don't negotiate with dentist, etc. The main reason for this is that the car audio business is a different business model than dentistry. The demand for dentistry is a lot more inelastic than car audio. This means, when my teeth really hurt, I want the best Fing service to get that to go away or I will kill myself. Car audio? OK, I love audio, maybe I will kill myself but dude, it's not like I am dying. I hope this offers you some insight on why the car audio business is so tough and the expectation for people to not negotiate is simply UNREALISTIC. There, I have said it and I am sorry if this hurts you. I am all for supporting a COMPETITIVE local shop--unless, your setup is just THAT GOOD. In all honesty, if you have to complain, you are either not very competitive, or you are just not that good. We all have to face reality sometime--you might be the exception here...just generalizing to offer insight.

Recommendation:

If you are good and you want people to pay for the install, sell it as such. Don't sell part at MSRP, rather up your install cost. Tell me and other people straight up--"hey, I can give you competitve pricing on the parts but I gotta charge you for the install and my service, consultation, and live demos." JUST BE HONEST AND UP FRONT. 

There are a lot of stupid people out there including myself. When I see someone trying to sell me MSRP, I go "WTF?" People don't associate the "pro install/demo" cost immediately. JUST BE HONEST. For the smart DIY folks, if the local shop is not honest in saying that you are paying for the install, DIY folks will feel insulted. Like, I felt really insulted when local shop asked me to pay MSRP while I know the price on AMAZON. What's more? Just because HERTZ, AUDISON, or MOREL pricing are hard to find, you expect me to not know what the "street price" is? Come on, if I know the street price, I am sure you as a local shop do as well. Do us all a favor and just be honest and up front about it. I recgonize you have to stock and your service/install cost. Just don't assume people are just stupid. 

HONESTY and being UP FRONT is key. People might not know what's geniune, but they can feel it. Just like audio. People might not know why the sound is so good, but they FEEL it sounds good. It's an art--just like everything else....photography, painting, etc.

good luck and I hope your shop will prosper based on your honesty and expert experience.


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## clbolt (Jan 9, 2008)

PriusNnyc said:


> But of course, now I don't trust the guy. So, somebody want tell me how to proceed, eh?


Buy the head unit, ipod cable, and whatever else you can squeeze out of that $500 deposit. Then walk out with your purchases and never go back to that store again. It sounds as if the salesman spun you with his sales pitch, then somehow intimidated you into placing a deposit. It may not be refundable (look on your receipt, and at the signs around the shop to see if there's a disclaimer), but you have the right to spend the money on whatever product you see fit, unless you special-ordered something.


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## PriusNnyc (Nov 6, 2009)

clbolt said:


> It sounds as if the salesman spun you with his sales pitch, then somehow intimidated you into placing a deposit. It may not be refundable (look on your receipt, and at the signs around the shop to see if there's a disclaimer), but you have the right to spend the money on whatever product you see fit, unless you special-ordered something.


Yeah, I'm a sucker I guess. But there IS a notice on the "receipt" that says "No refund on deposit or special order."

However, here is how he got me: after telling me about all the stuff they'd do and how great it will sound and how he's been in business for 25 years (blah, blah, blah) he said, "why don't you just give me your name and address here" as he put the sheet in front of me.

(Yes, I know...read the small (very small) print a$$hole...I get it)
:shame:

But I guess I didn't realize I was signing something - just thought I was giving him my info. Then after he took that back, he said he'd like a $500 deposit. The next thing I saw was a credit card receipt. So, it wasn't exactly hidden, but it wasn't fully disclosed either.

Anyway, wasn't until I called him to tell him "thanks, but I can't afford that right now" that he said that I'd signed off on it by putting my name and address on the form.

I think it's complete BS - but now I'm stuck. I'll admit my mistake and I'm trying to work to figure out the best way to get out with the $500 minimum. But for a first time experience with a shop, I couldn't be more disappointed and discouraged. :furious:

Thanks for the advice.


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## PriusNnyc (Nov 6, 2009)

Bs GTI said:


> Recommendation:
> 
> If you are good and you want people to pay for the install, sell it as such. Don't sell part at MSRP, rather up your install cost. Tell me and other people straight up--"hey, I can give you competitve pricing on the parts but I gotta charge you for the install and my service, consultation, and live demos." JUST BE HONEST AND UP FRONT.



+100000

Yes, right on. Not opposed to paying more for quality installation either. As a newb, I value you that for sure. Charging 50-200% over what Crutchfield charges only tells me that something is wrong...


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

PriusNnyc said:


> Yeah, I'm a sucker I guess. But there IS a notice on the "receipt" that says "No refund on deposit or special order."
> 
> However, here is how he got me: after telling me about all the stuff they'd do and how great it will sound and how he's been in business for 25 years (blah, blah, blah) he said, "why don't you just give me your name and address here" as he put the sheet in front of me.
> 
> ...



If you dont mind sharing, which shop was this ? I want to make sure it was not one of my dealers and never will become one of my dealers. PM is fine if you want to keep the info somewhat private.


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## PriusNnyc (Nov 6, 2009)

PM sent - not quite ready to call this dude out yet publicly hoping that we can work it out. If anyone else is interested, I can send a PM.


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## Operator (Nov 11, 2009)

This whole ordeal is similiar to how Mom and Pop grocery stores complained about Wal-Mart. People want the most for their money. Just like B&M shop owners don't want to be bashed, don't get upset with the people that head online to shop. There are good shops and bad shops out there, just like people will have good experiences and negative experiences with online retailers. Not all shops are worth a customers business. I'll never forget getting burned (actually it was my HU that literally got burned) by a B&M shop. One of my worst retail experiences ever!!! But I didn't egativly label all shops because of a mishap with that one. I'll be up front and honest, the days of be buying from a shop are pretty much over, though if I don't have the time, I won't have 2nd thoughts about letting a legit shop work on my car. B&M shops need to realize, their profit off installs due to people who purchase off the internet is still profit.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

shopping for a B&M shop should be looked at like shopping online. know the reputation of the installer, like you would google wooferetc to see what others have to say about them. Dont just walk into a place and assume they are experienced. For example..the chain store Zippos completely butchered my old focal set. punched a hole through 1 tn 51 tweet and the rings they made to adapt my speakers fell apart in less than a month. Bad small business. You order online, the risk vs reward is great. many are unauthorized which you have to ask..where are they getting them? if they are unauthorized by JL, is it B stock? One example from someone on another forum was buying a JLamp from an online dealer. serial numbers were filed off. ok, they opened it. did they put it together correctly? any metal shavings left in the amp? If i need service, they cant send it back to JL..who do they send it to? I needed a woofer not too long ago. I contacted Don after doing a lil research on him (6spdcoupe). We talked about a few drivers and agreed to meet. Long story short, after a few hours..i didnt need a new woofer. he didnt try to sell me anything or ask for money for his time. After seeing some of his work and the way he dealt with me..he earned my hard earned money. he installed a HIgh end set of 3 ways, cut my doors, deadened, etc for a great price around what you would pay for online for the same set cash and carry. I wont disclose, but i think you get the picture. you cant PAY for that customer service. If I ordered a new sub online and found that I didnt need it, would wooferetc take it back? ya, but at 15% restocking fee plus shipping back and forth. Hes seeing me this sat to fix a problem i think i have...can online do that? I can call him a VERY KNOWLEDGABLE car audio lunatic. what happens if you call sonic electronics? you probably get some guy getting paid minimum wage that doesnt know the difference between a sealed or ported box. on top of that, support your local economy. alot of the reasons we are where we are is because of the big business belief. With big name banks and the mortgage crisis offering the best rate etc....where are they? bankrupt. what did they do to this country? dont have to tell you. if everyone did a lil extra or paid a lil extra here and there... the us dollar wouldnt be dominated the way it is and would go further in the long run. I know the car audio industry is relatively small as opposed to other businesses in the real world. If everyone started shopping online, alot of small or large businesses would be go under. Like it is now..and look at our economy. People are lucky to have a job these days. I believe in saving a buck as much as the next guy. i have a 9-5 plus I bartend on the weekend. U have no idea what I do for a dollar. Dont forget..you have the power to negotiate. If say woofer etc is selling a set for 1000 and you get quoted at 1100 from a good reputable brick and mortar...what does the extra buy u? maybe alot maybe not. maybe a real warranty maybe not. but my problems are only a phonecall and 30 min drive away now instead of a ship..wait ship wait. working 6 days a week..my time is priceless.


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## luke81 (Mar 20, 2009)

PriusNnyc said:


> But I guess I didn't realize I was signing something - just thought I was giving him my info. Then after he took that back, he said he'd like a $500 deposit. The next thing I saw was a credit card receipt.


Somewhere in there you handed the guy a credit card to make a purchase. Now I'm not giving you a hard time, but it sounds like you made a purchase that you weren't prepared to make. It sounds like maybe you didn't encounter the greatest salesman in the world (as far as customer service goes) but it's hard to argue the point that you agreed to the 500$ when you handed them a card then signed the receipt.


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## ogg (Oct 13, 2007)

clbolt said:


> When I was selling new Toyotas, they taught us the first day to never discuss price on the lot. If you're showing cars to a customer on the first walk-through, and they ask for the price, you point to the sticker and recite the price. In most instances, if you have a real buyer, they'll stay with you and won't bring up the subject again until you sit down to talk terms. If they do, you use the same technique again. On the third query, you lok them in the eye and say" I know that you're concerned about the price. Everything has it's price, and you need to find the best deal you can. I'm the same way. However, my job is to find the car that matches your needs the best, because the price doesn't matter if we don't find the right car for you. I promise that once we've found that car, my managers are going to make you the best deal they can".


I sold Toyotas briefly and I went through the same ******** training. I hated playing those stupid games and I refuse to give any dealer that does a dime of my money. Many dealers, at least around here, dropped those practices because it was pissing off potential customers costing them sales. The local Subaru dealer where my wife and I purchased our last three new cars has never played such games and just gives me honest, reasonable prices and therefore has earned my loyalty and trust. Almost everyone else I've sent there has subsequently become a repeat customer.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

That beings up another point. If ur car shopping, say an Infiniti.. Would u buy your car from Infiniti or buy an Infiniti from ford? Why buy unauthorized?


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## Topdown (Aug 12, 2009)

one last thought that I just remembered...

When I owned my own company - before I sold out for a healthy profit - the one thing that used to get me the most business was giving respect freely... 

What do I mean?

Military discount. You want a dedicated group of folks to recommend you to more dedicated folks, you will never find a more dedicated group than the military. They have dedicated their lives to protecting those that need help protecting themselves - your god-damn right I will give those men and women a price break and give them first shot at whatever they need. Its the LEAST I could do for them. I wake up every day next to my wife and kids and drive to work and sit in an office... they wake up alone, in the worst places and conditions imaginable and GET SHOT AT! - ON PURPOSE! recognizing that and giving them a thank you means a lot. having events FOR them and their families on weekends - i used to have weekends where 75% of all profits went to buying stuff for the soldiers or their families. web cams, lotions, toilet paper, ceramic plates for armor, socks, underwear, books, magazines - LOTS of mags, stuff to let them know we havent forgotten them.

Police/Fire discount. While they may not be in foreign countries getting shot at, these men and women risk life and limb to protect you and yours (me and mine) from evil. Yeah, it sucks to get a ticket, for doing what you knew you shouldnt have been doing in the first place, but be real... these folks are in danger every day... doing **** like RUNNING INTO BURNING BUILDINGS - ON PURPOSE! you have GOT to be ****ting me!

I have gone out of my way to buy stuff from places that have the discounts lots of times, even though I dont qualify for either. 

Just my .02 on "B&M" shops.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

my contribution:

Many of the diy crowd see the design and installation of their stereo as an art. 

There is a lot of snobbery in the art world, apply the same principle here.


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## Operator (Nov 11, 2009)

mark1478 said:


> That beings up another point. If ur car shopping, say an Infiniti.. Would u buy your car from Infiniti or buy an Infiniti from ford? Why buy unauthorized?


If it's the same exact car both places, but the one from the Ford dealership is $3k cheaper, then I'll buy it from the Ford dealer........


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## clbolt (Jan 9, 2008)

Operator said:


> If it's the same exact car both places, but the one from the Ford dealership is $3k cheaper, then I'll buy it from the Ford dealer........


Great, but when you Infiniti needs repairs, there's no warranty. Where are you going for repairs?

That's the downside of buying unauthorized. Some are willing to live with it, some aren't.


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## Operator (Nov 11, 2009)

I guess the guy posted a bad anology. If the car is used and still has a factory warranty on it, then it doesn't matter where I buy it from.... If it's brand new (Ford isn't going to sell a brand new Infiniti.. but I'll play) and Ford will provide it's own warranty for the car then I'm still covered. Thing is, I saved 3k in purchasing the car. That's $$$ that I can now either save, or spend modding the car, be it performance or entertainment.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

You can't compare this to car shopping. Sorry, it doesn't work. All cars are originally purchased authorized, and warrantied no matter how many times they change hands during that warranty period. Yes, there are instances of cars having the warranties voided due to racing, etc, but a simple call to the dealer with the VIN would let you know that and a carfax calls up any other history that has been reported. I don't think it's possible to buy a car off the lot with the VIN removed from it, let alone register a vehicle without a VIN, and a vehicle without a VIN is the only way you could make a comparison between buying a car and and a gray market piece of gear. The argument doesn't hold water. 

I understand that Shops need to make money, but as it's been said over and over and over, MSRP is not an option for a DIYer. Part of the hobby is saving money, at least for me. 

I think that everyone agrees here, if you want to cater to DIY, know your product, and treat us with respect. I can only think of a few car audio dealers I've dealt with that treated me with respect AND knew what they were talking about. It's a hard combination. I may go into one place, and the guy is nice enough, but just doesn't have a clue. Then go across the street, and the guy is very knowledgeable, but he thinks he's better than me and condecends, assuming that I am clueless and going to mess my own car up. One of the only people I've dealt with that has this elusive combination is Don (6spdcoupe) although not face to face, from my experience he's always willing to go out of his way to help a DIYer and NEVER talks down.


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## 2500hd (Aug 22, 2009)

ptannjr, I have a some suggestions that might help you grow your "DIY" customer base.

1) Hold workshops or tutorials on basic to advanced installs. Many guys may not have the knowledge or experience to complete an install in their own car. You could charge the same rate as if you were doing a regular install, just have your diy customer there learning/working on their own car.

2) Rent your shop/tools out during any downtime. You maximize profitability of your workspace, and mister DIY doesn't need to go and buy a table saw/router/nailer for just one project.

3)Sell the supplies that are used to make custom systems, i.e. fleece, mat, bondo, mdf, birch, premade rings. You already buy these wholesale, and DIYer can have a one stop shop for all of his/her needs, with the added benefit of your consultation of their needs per application.

Does that help?


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## ogg (Oct 13, 2007)

2500hd said:


> ptannjr, I have a some suggestions that might help you grow your "DIY" customer base.
> 2) Rent your shop/tools out during any downtime. You maximize profitability of your workspace, and mister DIY doesn't need to go and buy a table saw/router/nailer for just one project.


This would quite likely raise insurance issues in many places and would be impractical if not impossible to implement.


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## PriusNnyc (Nov 6, 2009)

luke81 said:


> Somewhere in there you handed the guy a credit card to make a purchase. Now I'm not giving you a hard time, but it sounds like you made a purchase that you weren't prepared to make. It sounds like maybe you didn't encounter the greatest salesman in the world (as far as customer service goes) but it's hard to argue the point that you agreed to the 500$ when you handed them a card then signed the receipt.


I'm not arguing the point that I made a stupid decision. (Although I would still debate that a deposit is not quite a purchase.) Quite the contrary, I admit that I made a mistake. But what I am arguing is that what happened to me was a terrible business practice: he should've told me straight up that I was putting down a non-refundable deposit for...(???) but he didn't. It's basically that simple. That, imho, is hard to defend in today's economy, with everyone going online. (BTW, he also scribbled out a list of stuff that was "bundled" at $1800 (no break down) handing it to me after the fact.) Probably just my bad luck to end up at this particular shop I suppose.

I still hope I can work it out, but look what he's bringing on himself: me writing about it on this forum (and others), calling the better business bureau, and so on, all in hopes that I can sway people who can really spend a lot to go somewhere else. Is that what he wants?? Bad decision on his part if you ask me.

On the bright side, I see it as a valuable, life lesson. I will never let that happen again and perhaps I can find a good business through this site. Is there a thread dedicated to GOOD businesses on here??


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

The problem is that most people believe that B&M = Good ....and internet = bad. There are good and bad in both. However I've seem MUCH more bad B&M than internet.

>^..^<


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

2500hd said:


> ptannjr, I have a some suggestions that might help you grow your "DIY" customer base.
> 
> 1) Hold workshops or tutorials on basic to advanced installs. Many guys may not have the knowledge or experience to complete an install in their own car. You could charge the same rate as if you were doing a regular install, just have your diy customer there learning/working on their own car.
> 
> ...


Those are great ideas. 

1) are you suggesting me put together say a 2 hour class and charge each attendee 2 hours labor rate? 

2) the problem i see here is that if some one hurts them self while using my tools or space i become liable. Not sure how that would play out but worth considering.

3) that is a valid Option on items i am able to buy wholesale. Some stuff we buy we pay regular retail to get. Also it maybe difficult to sell some DIY guys on why we use a certain grade of resin for glass work rather than the cheap stuff you can get a the local supply stores. I do like this idea however as we stock alot of it and do sell some as we go along.

Thank you for your thought out response.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

PriusNnyc said:


> Yeah, I'm a sucker I guess. But there IS a notice on the "receipt" that says "No refund on deposit or special order."
> 
> However, here is how he got me: after telling me about all the stuff they'd do and how great it will sound and how he's been in business for 25 years (blah, blah, blah) he said, "why don't you just give me your name and address here" as he put the sheet in front of me.
> 
> ...


The great thing about paying with a CC is you have a tool to leverage with. You CC company will help you work this out with the shop. If you honestly did not get anything and call your CC company and dispute it, the CC company will help you get it worked out so that every one involved is taken car of. If the shop is playing hard ball and wont work it out, the CC company will just reverse the transaction. This should only be taken as a LAST resort if you have talked to the salesguy and shop manager or owner to work it out.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ptannjr said:


> 2) the problem i see here is that if some one hurts them self while using my tools or space i become liable. Not sure how that would play out but worth considering.


You'd loose all that you made in ten years the first time someone hurt thereself

Insurance rate would be higher than medical malpractice


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

ptannjr said:


> OK, so a little sangria has me wondering about a few things. I am a shop owner and I spend a good amount of money stocking stuff for DIY guys as well as other shops to be able to come and buy install supplies from me as well as speaker boxes, radios, TVs, Speakers, Subs, and amps from me to complete installs. I come on here and see DIY guys bashing the crap out of me (local shops, not me personally) because we sell at retail. So many people on here want to buy from some pimple faced 17 year old kid (not bashing you as a person, that was me 20 years ago) that sells from his daddys garage. THese online garage guys sell for cost or 5-10% over my cost on things and have NO OVER HEAD. If they sell today that does not mean they will be here tomorrow to service you. It seems this does not matter, you buy from the 16 year old that replaces him.
> 
> As a guy that has dedicated my life to providing better sound to people i get pissed off at all these jack asses that think that every shop is out to rip you off. I will tell you this now, if you look back, there would be NO 12 Volt industry with out guys like me spending out lifes savings on stocking **** for ungratefull asses. We work hard to keep a good inventory instock so that people can come in and get what they need when they need it. This costs us money. We work hard on introducing products that you may not know about and this costs us money. We work hard on maintaing demo vehicles so that you may come and hear the product to order it off line and this costs us money.
> 
> ...


I look for knowledgeable staff and the ability to work with me on price. Most of the time, I know what I want so I am not looking to spend a lot of asking questions and listening to stuff and taking up your time. I am willing to pay a little more than the internet price to support a local business.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

ptannjr said:


> I understand that information on the net is vast. I am working on trying to supply more information on my site as well. Information is power and the net works well at that. It is my job to get answer the questions for my customers and if i dont know the answer i need to get it for them. We work hard on helping our customers think of us for anything to do with their cars. Hell last week we had one of our guys drive 30 minutes to pick up a car and drive it 2 hours to get a range rover serviced and then drive it back. A full day to service a customer. Service is key. I guess now i want to know what service is worth to the DIY crowd?


Serving the public, the toughest job in the world. At one point in my life I was doing the same as you. I did computers in the later 80 and early 90's along with audio service. I got out of it because it was too big of a headache. So many folks want something for nothing.

For the DIY crowd, service is nothing, thats why they DIY. All they want is parts cheap and for you to bail them out when they screw things up. They have no idea what it takes to run a business and keep an inventory, pay employees and keep the lights on.

With the internet, you can't compete with DIY for prices, if it was me, I'd stay away from the DIY crowd, mainly the 20 to 30 year old groups. They think they know far more than they do. And their claim to fame is how much they spent on a system and how many bells and whistles they have.

Focus on service for the non-DIY crowd. Word of mouth is by far the best advertising. High dollar does not equate to high quality. I can't tell you how many systems I've installed for folks with off the shelf products at a decent price and they are happy.

If a guy rolls into my shop (I still play at home) wanting some mega watt amp and techno looking gadgets, I don't play, they'll never be satisfied. But if some one wants a good sounding system to drive around with, I'll help them out.

Service the crowd that keeps you fed, let the others pass.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Dryseals said:


> Serving the public, the toughest job in the world. I got out of it because it was too big of a headache.* So many folks want something for nothing*.
> 
> *All they want is parts cheap and for you to bail them out when they screw things up.*
> 
> ...


All the companies are going under


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## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

Parish, just do what I wish I had done. Now that I manage a pawn shop, I can tell people "no". lol. When people come into your store asking to sale their stuff, cuz they did in mine, take it. But for pennies on the dollar. What would it hurt to make them an offer (as long as it works) Then resale that **** on a table thats marked "Used product, NO WARRANTY". 

Buy DVD's too, and resale them. We buy them for a dollar (soon to be 50 cents) and sale those 3 for 5 bucks. If nothing else, you will sale that, and draw traffic to the store. If someone buys an overhead screen, or dvd player, throw in couple of the DVD's for free for them. I know it takes capital to buy **** that you dont have as it is, but it may be worth advertising.

I dont know ANYONE who sales DVD's as cheap as we do. Cheaper here to buy them than to rent them. We have the movies people like to watch, not total garbage that NOONE wants to watch.

Just an idea bro.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

KAPendley said:


> Parish, just do what I wish I had done. Now that I manage a pawn shop, I can tell people "no". lol. When people come into your store asking to sale their stuff, cuz they did in mine, take it. But for pennies on the dollar. What would it hurt to make them an offer (as long as it works) Then resale that **** on a table thats marked "Used product, NO WARRANTY".
> 
> Buy DVD's too, and resale them. We buy them for a dollar (soon to be 50 cents) and sale those 3 for 5 bucks. If nothing else, you will sale that, and draw traffic to the store. If someone buys an overhead screen, or dvd player, throw in couple of the DVD's for free for them. I know it takes capital to buy **** that you dont have as it is, but it may be worth advertising.
> 
> ...


Andy, how you been doing? The used equipment may not be a bad idea if it is CHEAP. I know when i sell used product the person wanting to sell it wants it CHEAP also so as you know it has to be bought STOOPID CHEAP to sell cheap. I honestly dont get many people asking to sell stuff to me yet. the couple i have had wanted 25-35% off retail. That just aint going to cut it. The DVDs, i dont know about that. I dont know that i want he hassle of that many $1-$5 transactions. Not sure that fits for us.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah andy keep your whore dvds to yourself.




lol
jk


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## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

g0a said:


> Yeah andy keep your whore dvds to yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO! Yeah, you remember that when you are finally getting to browse the selection and you start to see those Adult Swim Box sets for 20 bucks.


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## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

ptannjr said:


> Andy, how you been doing? The used equipment may not be a bad idea if it is CHEAP. I know when i sell used product the person wanting to sell it wants it CHEAP also so as you know it has to be bought STOOPID CHEAP to sell cheap. I honestly dont get many people asking to sell stuff to me yet. the couple i have had wanted 25-35% off retail. That just aint going to cut it. The DVDs, i dont know about that. I dont know that i want he hassle of that many $1-$5 transactions. Not sure that fits for us.


Been doing good bro, just busy as hell. 

I understand about the DVD's. They would have done well in MY demographic. Noone understands what you can and cannot market in YOUR area like you. lol Anything I can do to help bro, let me know.


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## luke81 (Mar 20, 2009)

PriusNnyc said:


> I'm not arguing the point that I made a stupid decision. (Although I would still debate that a deposit is not quite a purchase.) Quite the contrary, I admit that I made a mistake. But what I am arguing is that what happened to me was a terrible business practice: he should've told me straight up that I was putting down a non-refundable deposit for...(???) but he didn't. It's basically that simple. That, imho, is hard to defend in today's economy, with everyone going online. (BTW, he also scribbled out a list of stuff that was "bundled" at $1800 (no break down) handing it to me after the fact.) Probably just my bad luck to end up at this particular shop I suppose.


I agree that you've obviously not dealt with the best person in this industry. And i do agree you should have been made more aware of it. Most places there is a sign listing all the store policies, and this should have been on there. 
I often give quotes as a single, bundled price. Because I'm quoting the whole system, not just the individual parts. I dont think he was in the wrong there. 
If i have to special order major parts or block out any significant amount of time on my schedule i ask for a deposit. And although it's technically 'non-refundable' I'll always work with people if something comes up. It sounds like you're just dealing with someone who has no give, but at the same time i see both sides of this.


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## Rick420 (Nov 28, 2009)

First off some local shops are great,but where i live we have some very $hitty shops who do nothing but con lil kids out of there parents money. I have no problem with someone making a dollar(im a HUGE capitalist) but when you lie and cheat people it eventualy turns people off the hobby all togather!! To the good shops out there dont sweat it and for the sorry ones just close your doors and do us all a favor!!


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

KAPendley said:


> Been doing good bro, just busy as hell.
> 
> I understand about the DVD's. They would have done well in MY demographic. Noone understands what you can and cannot market in YOUR area like you. lol Anything I can do to help bro, let me know.


Andy, i am glad you are doing well. That is great to hear. Yeah DVDs can be a different demo deal i guess. We kind of try to focus on anything auto related. We will handle ANYTHING with the car. If i dont do it in house we utilize subs that give us wholesale price and offer it more as a service to a the select customers that want to use us for a consierge service i guess. Heck right now were working with a Land Rover dealer to fix a completely stock video system in a Range Rover. Customer does not want to deal with them. wants us to so we do it and make a premium for the service. We all have to just find the nitche that works for our personality and demographic.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

you could have some really nice router bits from NC , that would be a good niche.


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

g0a said:


> you could have some really nice router bits from NC , that would be a good niche.


Actually if you shoot me some information to [email protected] i will review it and pass it to my install staff.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

http://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/wm_catalog_2007.pdf

Pm or email me for pricing 
I have discounts for DIYma and 12vinsiders =)


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

g0a said:


> http://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/wm_catalog_2007.pdf
> 
> Pm or email me for pricing
> I have discounts for DIYma and 12vinsiders =)


So ... Parish and I get double discount right ?


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> So ... Parish and I get double discount right ?


Oh yeah i like that idea!!


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## Rick420 (Nov 28, 2009)

I myself try to buy localy and support local business. But lately have just been met with terrible service. Not just with car audio...I ride BMX(yes im almost 40 and still ride a 20" S&M for fun) I have had complaints that go unadressed..go to the manager and get a shoulder shrug. I threaten to take business elsewhere and im treated like "who cares"! I spent more on my last bike than my last car! So i now shop online,get way better prices and dont have to put up with some kid who thinks he's a rockstar because he works in a car audio shop!! To those doing good business and giving there customers the extra service and support they cant get online you will do fine. I wish we had a shop like back home where you could hang out,Listen to new products and ask dumb questions. I would deffenatly stop buying online!!!


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## autonoz (Nov 23, 2009)

Well I was a little more sympathetic to the original poster earlier, but I just returned from our local audio shop after buying an installation kit. I am in a bind for Xmas and figured I will just have to pay a little extra for the convenience of a nearby store. Guess what? I just paid twice as much for the same kit as I could have on line. I figured the guy would have quality at a higher price, but garbage at twice as much. So to all who run their busineses this way, that is why you get bashed. Will not return product, but will never deal with this guy again and will tell those who need product to stay away.


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## sqguy (Oct 19, 2005)

My biggest problem out here in So Calif is that The "Good Shops" have mostly gone away as well as the Soundoff scene for the most part. the few shops that are still around are so booked up that its almost impossible to get in to get any work done. then u have to gone ""HOLLYWOOD" shops ie West Coast Customs where u have to be on the A list to get seen. So now you are left with the New guy and he's all about the almighty dollar and no passion or knowledge of the industry in a whole. so now i'm force to become a DIY just to save on the few spare peanuts that i'm able to cough up for this hobby.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I don't mind paying for service.

But my local shop quoted about $1200 for installation and couldn't guarantee if it would even be in that ball park. He quoted without even looking at my vehicle. I used factory locations, provided all the hardware necessary for installation, gave him a box loaded with subs. All he had to do was run the wire, screw down the amps, and make final connections. I made sure he knew this too.

When I asked about enclosing my speakers in pods, maybe kick panels, or building my sub into the trunk the price jumped to about $8k.

Btw, they had one of the older Kenwood Excelon amps with DSP on "clearance" for $400.

I saw another installation they were in middle of that was kind of nice...but nowhere near worth the $40 grand they said the customer's tab was up to, not including hardware.


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## 12vTools (Jan 15, 2009)

ptannjr said:


> Oh yeah i like that idea!!



You know I can do that for ya =)

Quantity discounts are always available =)


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

Local shops in my area are a joke. Shove the JL down your throat when you call up looking for a specific item that they never have. Crap selection. 
"What do you mean by active?" 
"Oh like the boxes that connect the speakers to the amps, oh yeah we know about those."
Me: Hi do you have xxx harness or part?
Salesguy: No but we have some JL.
Me: Yeah ok bu
Salesguy cuts in: We have some Jl. Did you need some Jl?
ME: wel
Salesguy cuts in again. Sounds like you need some Jl.
Me yeah I was looking fo
Saslesguy: Yeah we have a deal going on some Jl right now.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

goodstuff said:


> Local shops in my area are a joke. Shove the JL down your throat when you call up looking for a specific item that they never have. Crap selection.
> "What do you mean by active?"
> "Oh like the boxes that connect the speakers to the amps, oh yeah we know about those."
> Me: Hi do you have xxx harness or part?
> ...


looks like that JL dealer got you with that the equip you got in your sig.  Unfortunately, for the most part, the car audio industry isnt exactly an industry where you need "skilled services". Let me elaborate, before you a few of you kill me (6spdcoupe). It doesnt take a degree or a skill to sell it, however it does take skill and an EAR to install it. with the industry and the economy the way it is, its alot easier to pay someone minimum wage and knows the minimum to sell it rather than pay someone more money who can speak about active setups, airspace, sealed, ported, IB, three way two way etc. Kinda like shopping online. Car audio is both a hobby and a passion, especially to people on this particular forum. Its nice being able to not only shop from a good local person, but to be able to talk to someone for hours about it while having a cig and a few cups of coffee.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

mark1478 said:


> looks like that JL dealer got you with that the equip you got in your sig.


H,a no, Bought the 250/1 used from sundownz and the e6450 brand new from a local friend.


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## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

goodstuff said:


> Local shops in my area are a joke. Shove the JL down your throat when you call up looking for a specific item that they never have. Crap selection.
> "What do you mean by active?"
> "Oh like the boxes that connect the speakers to the amps, oh yeah we know about those."
> Me: Hi do you have xxx harness or part?
> ...


ROFL. Man, that was funny.

Alot of you guys have valid complaints about why you would not do business with the shops. I know of ONE in my area that I would do business with as a consumer, and thats Audio Illusions. 

*I guess the ONE thing everyone on DIYMA may want to take a deeper look at is the gentlemen that are on THIS forum, and own car audio shops, do in FACT CARE about their business, and their good reputation. Otherwise they would not be on the forum at all to try and convince you they care when the odds are against them. They pour their hearts into the industry, and give their customers the best service possible. Not everyone is going to have a store like this locally. And for those same gents that actually address these issues, it is a harder pill to swallow, because it feels like the bashings are an onslaught to the industry as a whole, that may adversely affect them as well. I get why alot of you do not like local shops, I do. But just remember that there are shops out there that are PASSIONATE about car audio. They are enthusiasts, just like you. Let the ones who DONT care hang themselves.*


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

mark1478 said:


> looks like that JL dealer got you with that the equip you got in your sig.  Unfortunately, for the most part, the car audio industry isnt exactly an industry where you need "skilled services". Let me elaborate, before you a few of you kill me (6spdcoupe). *It doesnt take a degree or a skill to sell it, however it does take skill and an EAR to install it. with the industry and the economy the way it is, its alot easier to pay someone minimum wage and knows the minimum to sell it rather than pay someone more money who can speak about active setups, airspace, sealed, ported, IB, three way two way etc. Kinda like shopping online.* Car audio is both a hobby and a passion, especially to people on this particular forum. Its nice being able to not only shop from a good local person, but to be able to talk to someone for hours about it while having a cig and a few cups of coffee.


I must say i take it you dont sell as a professional for a living. I have been doing this for 15 years. For some one to sell anything properly you HAVE to know your product, not only the features of you product by why those features make sense or dont for many different applications. The best sales professionals i have met in this industry were installers first. That was me for one. I started installing and grew into sales. You must know what a car needs and WHY it needs it to properly sell people what they need. When you get people who dont care about audio or people who dont KNOW audio, then you get the kind of people working at shops that you all seem to be complaining about. Some one who is a professional will take the time to learn about what they sell and will take the time to qualify every person they talk to to ensure they get what they need for the best experience possible. To properly take care of all of the customers needs it is critical to have trained sales staff that know how to do take care of customer needs.


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

ptannjr said:


> I must say i take it you dont sell as a professional for a living. I have been doing this for 15 years. For some one to sell anything properly you HAVE to know your product, not only the features of you product by why those features make sense or dont for many different applications. The best sales professionals i have met in this industry were installers first. That was me for one. I started installing and grew into sales. You must know what a car needs and WHY it needs it to properly sell people what they need. When you get people who dont care about audio or people who dont KNOW audio, then you get the kind of people working at shops that you all seem to be complaining about. Some one who is a professional will take the time to learn about what they sell and will take the time to qualify every person they talk to to ensure they get what they need for the best experience possible. To properly take care of all of the customers needs it is critical to have trained sales staff that know how to do take care of customer needs.


I agree, but the problem is that there are so many salespeople and installers out there who PRETEND to know their stuff and talk very confidently and smoothly about it even though they're completely clueless and just trying to make a buck. The best salespeople even employ tactics like telling you not to buy the expensive product to build trust, etc. The customer buys it and later discovers (perhaps through forums like this one) that they got scammed, left with a bad taste in their mouth for shops. It's certainly unfortunate for those in the industry like you, who actually have pride in their work and know what they're talking about.


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## Rick420 (Nov 28, 2009)

Well i know there are business's That care and do a great job...but in areas with little or no car audio shops it can be difficult. The city where i live only carry junk with the exception of one and he is a con-artist so i have been forced to go online! I would be more than happy to support local business but you HAVE to give the service to reflect the extra price we pay!! Just my two cents...


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## ptannjr (Jun 18, 2008)

dbiegel said:


> I agree, but the problem is that there are so many salespeople and installers out there who PRETEND to know their stuff and talk very confidently and smoothly about it even though they're completely clueless and just trying to make a buck. *The best salespeople even employ tactics like telling you not to buy the expensive product to build trust, etc*. The customer buys it and later discovers (perhaps through forums like this one) that they got scammed, left with a bad taste in their mouth for shops. It's certainly unfortunate for those in the industry like you, who actually have pride in their work and know what they're talking about.


The idea of the Best Salespeople using tactics to mess some one over is contrary to what i view as good salesperson. To me a good salesperson to be a good salesperson, you have to be honest with the customer and sell them the best components to meet there needs with out going over board. You have to keep in mind that a good salesperson will want to sell you not only today but for the next 10-20 years and understand that if they snow you then you wont come back again. I appreciate the customers i have built relationships with that 13 years later they still come back to me over and over again. The customers i speak of understand that i may not be the cheapest, but when i design a system for them it always sounds the way i tell it will and will meet or exceed what they were looking for and always fall in the budget we agree upon. I show them some of the best stuff available that meets their needs and take the time to educate them as to why the products are good products. Many of the customers i dealt with a decade ago still have the same products or systmes i have designed. They sound great today just like they did back then. That speaks volumes to selling quality products in proplerly designed and installed systems. They may have paid more than others at the time but 10 years later they still have a great sounding system and the guys that went cheap have been through 4-6 systems, thus spending more in the long run to still not have the same quality of sound. The ability to do this takes a sales professional that is truly concerned about the long term needs of the customer.


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## DynamicAudioLodi (Jul 13, 2009)

I think we should start a thread about dealers and what grade they get like A B C D F. Everyone should post what city, state and dealer name and why they get the grade they get.

There are a lot of great and professional shops out there and ton's of shops that just don't get it. We should call them out. And please anyone in my area is welcome to come by and give me my grade.


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## Rick420 (Nov 28, 2009)

OK..in Springfield,Missouri Stay away from a shop called Audiophile. While they do carry more than the average shop,They dont hook things up right,They will try and sell used,reconed,reconditioned equipment as new.Dont stand by there warranty and the guy who runs the place is an elitist D-bag!! F-


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

goodstuff said:


> Local shops in my area are a joke. Shove the JL down your throat when you call up looking for a specific item that they never have. Crap selection.
> "What do you mean by active?"
> "Oh like the boxes that connect the speakers to the amps, oh yeah we know about those."
> Me: Hi do you have xxx harness or part?
> ...


I can totally relate ...as I have said before, I once had a shop tell me that JL was better than McIntosh  ...so I walked out laughing.

>^..^<


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## PriusNnyc (Nov 6, 2009)

mark1478 said:


> its alot easier to pay someone minimum wage and knows the minimum to sell it rather than pay someone more money who [is very knowledgeable]._*ed*_


As the saying goes: if you're going to pay peanuts, you're going to get monkeys.

This holds true for more than just car audio.


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

It's not just a matter of paying more for someone who knows more. There's a conflict of interest. It's unfortunate, but a clueless salesperson who will do and say anything to sell, will make more money than a knowledgable salesperson who looks out for the customer's interests. This is especially true when you consider that the clueless, aggressive salesperson will push higher profit margin, overpriced products, where the knowledgable salesperson will try to get the customer a better value.

An interesting read on this is Edmunds' undercover car salesman article. Dealerships wouldn't hire a guy who knows a lot about cars, but when the guy said he doesn't care and just wants to make a lot of money, they hired him right away.

An owner of these businesses is there to make money. He's got to pay the bills, pay back his loans, improve inventory turnover, etc. 9 times out of 10 he'll hire the aggressive, clueless salesperson, because unfortunately it just works better from a business point of view, at least in the shorter term.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

dbiegel said:


> It's not just a matter of paying more for someone who knows more. There's a conflict of interest. It's unfortunate, but a clueless salesperson who will do and say anything to sell, will make more money than a knowledgable salesperson who looks out for the customer's interests. This is especially true when you consider that the clueless, aggressive salesperson will push higher profit margin, overpriced products, where the knowledgable salesperson will try to get the customer a better value.
> 
> An interesting read on this is Edmunds' undercover car salesman article. Dealerships wouldn't hire a guy who knows a lot about cars, but when the guy said he doesn't care and just wants to make a lot of money, they hired him right away.
> 
> An owner of these businesses is there to make money. He's got to pay the bills, pay back his loans, improve inventory turnover, etc. 9 times out of 10 he'll hire the aggressive, clueless salesperson, because unfortunately it just works better from a business point of view, at least in the shorter term.


From personal experience, my coworkers were kinda scared of me...one coworker was definitely scared of me. I was _the _car guy and knew the stock better than anyone. Coworkers would even ask me questions they couldn't answer while with clients :laugh:

Sales is blah...it's everyone for himself and you have to be "that guy." I think that's also a reason people dislike shopping locally...you have to deal with "that guy" who's trying to sell you something to get paid. To get what you want, you have to go through "that guy."

The shady and dishonest sales people gives a bad rap to everyone...


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## Redcloud (Feb 5, 2009)

ogg said:


> I sold Toyotas briefly and I went through the same ******** training. I hated playing those stupid games and I refuse to give any dealer that does a dime of my money. Many dealers, at least around here, dropped those practices because it was pissing off potential customers costing them sales. The local Subaru dealer where my wife and I purchased our last three new cars has never played such games and just gives me honest, reasonable prices and therefore has earned my loyalty and trust. Almost everyone else I've sent there has subsequently become a repeat customer.


I agree. Buying a car these days should be painless. You get on Edmunds find the TMV. Put out a request asking dealers that have the car you want with the options you want to send you a quote. Show up at the dealer, sign the papers and drive away. No I don't want you extended warranty or other add ons.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

I'm sure this has already been said, but why would i care about a warranty if i can buy the piece at half the price?

The worst i can do is break even if i need a replacement.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

The internet has made the world a different place for sure, 
I used to sell A/V gear back in the 80’s in so cal..
I knew my products better than most, yet I was not even close to being best salesman..
I was the geeky tech guy other salesmen would give me there difficult err in the know consumer. 

The guys that were good at this usually knew very little about products, but could sell you your own shirt and make you feel good about it, these kind of guys gave me the creeps, but now a days even guys like that are far and few.

Just the fact you made this post makes me think I would like your store..

I purchase online because I feel most comfortable that way, I do tons of research online before I buy anything, then look for best price, it just a DIY way of doing things.

Example; 
I just purchased a new in box head unit, a deh-p880prs, its an older unit, from 2006 and long gone off the shelves of brick and mortar places around here…it’s a unit that way different than the usual dvd, Bluetooth, nav stuff most people like today. 
I know this unit has issues such as the pico fuse blowing, but know already where it is on the PCB and how to fix it if it does blow, I have the tools and knowledge to do this, because I am a DIY kind of guy. 

I just don’t see a true DIY type guys fitting the brick and mortar mold very well, other than oh **** I need this doohickey right now… and when that does happen and you get some sales guy talking smack or clueless about car audio, it makes for many online stories in the DIY community. 


All I look for from sale, is a good price, a tracking number sent without asking for it, and good packing.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

chipss said:


> The internet has made the world a different place for sure,
> I used to sell A/V gear back in the 80’s in so cal..
> I knew my products better than most, yet I was not even close to being best salesman..
> I was the geeky tech guy other salesmen would give me there difficult err in the know consumer.
> ...


lol. When i worked at a shop i found myself talking people out of buying **** that wasn't necessary or was just plain silly. My boss however was great at looking at people and seeing every last dime he could shake out of them. We used to have to listen to these horrible eddie k cd's. Talk about a douchebag.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

we had the same type of training, and thats what gave me the creeps, and still does to this day.

back then I knew a cheep head unit and cheep 6/9 combo that gave a little bump, I could sell them all day long, my customers were very happy, and I felt good about the sale, however my boss and my paycheck were a diffrent storie..

off to the merchant maries for me, that was more my nitch... 



Sex Cells said:


> lol. When i worked at a shop i found myself talking people out of buying **** that wasn't necessary or was just plain silly. My boss however was great at looking at people and seeing every last dime he could shake out of them. We used to have to listen to these horrible eddie k cd's. Talk about a douchebag.


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