# Bass is missing in some songs



## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

Songs that I remember hearing lots of bass from in my old system doesn't have bass in my current system.

I listen to mostly rap. Songs like Slob on my Knob by Three 6 Mafia always hits hard in both of my systems, but songs like Hit em up by 2Pac, I remember hearing bass on it with my old system. That song didn't have mad bass that'll shake the car, but it did have a kick and sounded like a there IS a subwoofer in the car. With the new system, the bass not hittin on this song, and a good amount of other songs. I play the same songs in my friends car, and there it is.. I hear bass. Don't know what's up with the new system. I adjusted the LPF with no luck. Current settings are head unit EQ is on flat. Bass boost is off on head unit. Bass boost is on on the amp.

old system: two JL 10w3. forgot what kind of amp
new system: one JL 12w6. Kicker 500 watt mono class D and it hits that low bass hard

Any ideas on what it could be?


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Enclosure, displacement.

How is the midbass in the current ride?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Try a sweep, and see if you've got a "hole" in your response. Even a simple RTA app on a phone may be enough to see a significant hole.


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## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

Sine Swept, the enclosures for both is sealed. i believe it is the midbass that i'm missing. listen to this song, nelly - tho dem wrappas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqPGfP74EVI. not sure exactly what type of bass that is but its not the bass that stays rumbling, its the bass that hits hard really quick but you can feel it through the seats. new system, this song doesnt hit as much.. and the new setup is better too =/

fourthmeal, no idea what that means lol


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

If you take an electric guitar tuned to E and play the lowest note, that is 80hz.

If you take a 4 string bass guitar tuned to E and play the lowest note, that is 40hz.

Every doubling of frequency is an increase of one octave. If you halve 40hz to 20hz it will be the same note (E) one octave down.

If you listen to Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters" it begins on an E at 80hz

Also due to the fact you are using 1 sub now, you will effectively be 3db quieter right out of the box.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

rabbit said:


> Sine Swept, the enclosures for both is sealed. i believe it is the midbass that i'm missing. listen to this song, nelly - tho dem wrappas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqPGfP74EVI. not sure exactly what type of bass that is but its not the bass that stays rumbling, its the bass that hits hard really quick but you can feel it through the seats. new system, this song doesnt hit as much.. and the new setup is better too =/
> 
> fourthmeal, no idea what that means lol



I'm not sure where I was not clear, but I'll rephrase.

If bass is "missing" in some songs, consider that your frequency response is not smooth and at least somewhat flat throughout the response range. You can use a testing disc (or free testing MP3's and play them through your system) to sweep all the frequencies. Without expensive equipment, you can get a simple approximation of the response just by using a free app on your phone, such as RTA (Real Time Analyzer.) It will show you, as you are playing a sweeping tone, a graphic visual of the frequencies being played, and relatively how loud. So, as you are playing a sweep, you can tell where there's a missing band of response. Example, my hatchback had a huge peak in response at about 45hz, likely due to its size and shape. When I play a sweep test track, I can see my RTA app show that peak. 

If you are missing the basics of car audio and want to learn more, sometimes it is advisable to start at the beginning, which brings in the best resource Basic Car Audio Electronics , and just start at the beginning and don't stop until you are good with the basics.

That or pay a professional to fix it, lol.


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## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

i was hoping for a more simpler reply or solution lol but thanks anyway guys. probably have a professional look at it


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## jdsoldger (Feb 14, 2012)

Find a pink noise track, play it and use a real time analizer on your phone. This is exactly what a pro would do (though with fancier equiptment) to start figuring out what is wrong. It takes about 30 seconds to do.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Assuming it's not just the that you have less subs and a different enclosure that doesn't play the same.

Here is the simpler reply you are looking for.

The most likely thing would be xover settings and or bass boost.

Ensure your subs subsonic filter(or high pass) isn't to high... like 20hz or so or lower or just off, don't want it around 40 or 50hz. Same for the low pass..make sure it's not to low, the usual number is 80hz but maybe try 100hz to get the kick you want.


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## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

AAAAAA, no subsonic filter on my amp. LPF i went as high 150-175 and still didn't get what i'm looking for. i'm gonna try and mess with the bass boost. maybe switch it up to turning the BB off on my amp, and up on the head unit. by the way, BB for my amp is centered at 40 hz while the head unit is 50 hz. maybe the 40 hz boost is centered too low and not boosting the higher bass around the 70-80?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

IDK man, I've never, ever had to use bass boost, in any build ever. 

Most times, its cuts that I need to get a nice smooth, (semi) flat response.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I still don't see what midbasses you're using, and they may have more to do with it than the sub.

However, to me, (if the crossover is okay and you have solid midrange and good low-frequency punch, but missing midbass,) the most likely culprit is a phase issue - either between the midbasses, or between the sub and the mb's.
Try reversing polarity on the sub, and see if that helps.
If not, put it back, and reverse polarity on ONE of the MB's.

Do you have DSP, time alignment, or EQ?


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## rlee777 (Apr 28, 2009)

Move over to the passenger seat and see if the bass returns. Cancellation nodes are common in vehicles -- frequency will vary with several factors.


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## Audiophilefred (Oct 24, 2012)

I think you might need a stronger amp, what kinda kicker 500 amp you have?


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Yeah change polarity on your sub see if that makes a diff.
Check for leaks, a sealed box with leaks will loose output.

What ohm is your sub wired to? what load does your amp make most power?


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## dry664 (Jul 29, 2013)

As above use the RTA app.

I had similar in my system and it turned out to be a peak at 60hz. I'd set the sub gains to sound right on a song with heavy 60hz beats, then on anything where the beat was above or below it sounded quiet.
I verified this using the RTA app, and my solution was a -3db EQ at 63hz and a slight increase in gain.


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## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

Audiophilefred, AAAAAAA, I have a kicker DXA500.1. Sub is wired 2 ohms. The amp is 500 watts at 2 ohms. The low bass shakes the whole car so I know it's a good amp and its enough power. I'm just not getting mid bass, I believe that's the right type of bass I'm trying to describe. The bass boost is set at 40 hz on this amp. Maybe that's why?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Start with zero boosts.

Run a sweep, see what frequency you're lacking.

Keep it simple, logical, methodical, write down what you're hearing and not hearing. Once you get the hole figured out as to what frequencies you're losing, then you can make amends with boost or a change in polarity, etc. 

Go download some test sweeps and grab your phone app I was talking about, and have at it.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Everything mentioned so far seems to be sound advice, but I'll toss out one more idea.

It sounds like this system is still fairly new (how long has it been installed?), it may well get stronger and play deeper with a bit more break-in.


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## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

its been installed for about 2 months now so it should sound how its supposed to as far as breaking in goes. im going to try that sweep thing when i have time.


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

Reversed polarity will produce next to no low end. This likely isn't the problem, going down to one sub isn't the problem. Using 500 watts @ 2 ohm isn't the problem (unless your amp thermals and shuts down). 

I know what the problem is and it's all too familiar too me and I'm experiencing it again.

It's box design man, plain and system.

Never use bass boost in a head unit, its centered at 100 Hz or higher it won't help it make things worse.

The problem is prefab systems. You mentioned this sub is in a sealed box, is it a JL Audio designed box or some prefab thing you pulled of the shelf somewhere?

My bet it's a store bought unit, not designed either properly for the woofer or your car.

Somebody mentioned mid-bass. A good mid-bass speaker (combined with low crossover points) will just make it harder to localize the location of the sub.

Getting back to the sub system (no pun). A signal sweep as mentioned by others will tell you what's wrong. Also mention is that some cars have large peaks in some areas. This is apart of cabin gain, the free lunch that comes with installing a sub into a car, but there's always a caveat...

Using a sub not designed to be used in tiny boxes (Kicker L7 for example) will produce a boom and not a thud, which is what your looking for. My system in a box has this phenomenon it produces a boom, not a thud.

The cure is changing the design of the box....

It bares repeating -

I built two different boxes for one sub; same truck, same amp, same music, some head unit, no chances other than the box design.

Same problem, listen mainly to rap (still do) some songs sound good, others not so much.

I bet you don't even have to RTA or use a spectrum analyzer. Take the songs you mentioned and put them in Audacity, here's how -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHrB-gYCkpE

First you'll find that some songs just don't play down as far as you think they do.

Next you'll see why some songs sound great (around the tuning frequency of your car with the sub in it) and some not so hot (below F3). I found out what was going on with one particular song with my Bazooka Tube.

Bazooka Tubes have server roll-off around the tuning frequency of the sub which according to SAS is 39 Hz.

Anything played above that, sounds great, anything below that is soft, lacks attack and impact.

Now back to the two boxes I built -

Both were recommended specs by MTX. The woofer in question was a MTX Road Thunder II (circa early 90's). The sealed recommendation was 1.25 3^ft and vented/ported was 1.75 3^ft.

Going the easy route and never had built a vented enclosure before, I went sealed.

The results were underwhelming. Some songs sounded good, others not so much. I called up MTX looking for a solution. The tech told me, go for the vented box, it will be much better and said the small sealed is a compromise.

I didn't have the tools to cut a hole in a box (beyond the one needed for the sub itself it came with a template after all), but my neighbor did. He was fascinated because he never built a sub enclosure before.

MTX like most companies provides a cut-sheet, so we followed that. I believe the tuning of the box was 35 Hz.

Man did that make a difference! 

To get a sealed system to play low, you need a larger box and some EQ to help out were needed. I heard one of Frank's customers roll up, he had two Diamond Audio (Older models before the buyout/takeover) and 1000 watt Audison amp, that thing pounded.

Did I mention his subs were free air? Aka big leaky box... No bass boost is employed in that system it doesn't need it.

In most cases however, if you just build the vented alignment it's only a little bit bigger but will produce way more sound right around where you want it for popular music, especially rap/club/dance music.

I would build the recommend vented box by JL Audio for the 12w6 assuming its a version 2, which is 1.25 3^ft tuned at 32 Hz - 12W6v2-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - W6v2 - JL Audio

Trust me, you will come back saying your system's bass gets ridiculously loud and low.

I am in the same boat, the included 12" sealed sub with my Sony system reminds me of that previous Road Thunder setup, roughly 1 cubic foot in size (based on wood thickness mentioned in a PAS write up about it) it's just to darn small to produce any "real" bass.

The woofer is similar to the Sony XS-GTR12L and they recommend .84 3^ft for sealed and 1.13 3^ft vented (4" x 9 1/8 port). I am going to assume its tuned in the mid to low 30's similar to the JL sub.

If a new box can be constructed and carpeted to look the same as the current box for under $100, then I might go that route. I have no way to boost the lower frequencies with this system.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Move the sub enclosure to different positions and try again.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

rabbit said:


> AAAAAA, no subsonic filter on my amp.


I hate to the bearer of bad news but your amplifier has a subsonic crossover located directly to the left of your lowpass crossover, set both of them
at the halfway point (for starters), adjust the Bass Boost to the halfway mark as well..
Go to your head unit and scroll through the settings for the low pass crossover and double check that everything is as it should be, if you're not sure of a particular setting or adjustment then go online and look through the manual for your head unit, it will explain all the settings and help you get straightened out but I'm already thinking you have the crossover set to something other than "through"or "full pass"..


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

fcarpio said:


> Move the sub enclosure to different positions and try again.


I've only experienced a phase problems ONCE (sub sounds better in an inconvenient location), so I am going to say that the possibility of this is unlikely.



gstokes said:


> I hate to the bearer of bad news but your amplifier has a subsonic crossover located directly to the left of your lowpass crossover, set both of them
> at the halfway point (for starters), adjust the Bass Boost to the halfway mark as well..
> Go to your head unit and scroll through the settings for the low pass crossover and double check that everything is as it should be, if you're not sure of a particular setting or adjustment then go online and look through the manual for your head unit, it will explain all the settings and help you get straightened out but I'm already thinking you have the crossover set to something other than "through"or "full pass"..


 Is it really bad news you're more familiar with the product than the owner?

I can tell you what a high LPF sounds like, it's flat but further I am 100% sure it's the enclosure he's using. Think about what happen, he went from two subs to just one. 

The reason is usually to re-gain some lost cargo space. It also typically means a smaller box.

Are you following me here? The JL 12w6 has fairly small box requirements...

I could keep going but this all points to a box undersized to work with the music he listens too the majority of the time. I understand where's he's coming from and what the complaint is.

Been there, done that, experiencing it again.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

djfourmoney said:


> Is it really bad news you're more familiar with the product than the owner?


 I was being a sarcastic donkey and should have bit my tongue


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

gstokes said:


> I was being a sarcastic donkey and should have bit my tongue


 I understood ya


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## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

I'd try turning off the bass boost, and turning up the gain if its not loud enough to keep up with your midbass. I prefer more midbass (and will subsequently spend alot more time and money on it) than sub bass. I dont think you mentioned what you have for midbass, but I'm willing to bet they will have a difficult time keeping up with that much sub bass.


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

Rrrrolla said:


> I'd try turning off the bass boost, and turning up the gain if its not loud enough to keep up with your midbass. I prefer more midbass (and will subsequently spend alot more time and money on it) than sub bass. I dont think you mentioned what you have for midbass, but I'm willing to bet they will have a difficult time keeping up with that much sub bass.


 I don't quite understand the logic of this.

It is my belief not enough mid-bass will make it easier to locate the sub or muffle vocals IE too much bass, that isn't his problem.

I've experienced mid-bass drivers playing lower than the sub bass drivers, I could still locate the sub because of it's crossover point. Because of that sub's vented design it was fine on 90-95% of what I played and only so-so on material that hit below the tuning frequency.

I'll say it again, I understand where the OP is coming from.

Trust me the problem is a small sealed box, high peak frequency and a F3 point right about where the music he's listening too is centered.

With my Sony Digital Link Sound System, I have the exact same problem, low bass (below 35 Hz is non-existent) and the high crossover point makes matters worse.

These things are easy to see on an RTA or spectrum analyzer.

All this theorizing about phase shifting, crossover points, not enough gain/too much gain, etc, etc all have impact on SQ/Image quality not satisfying bass for most rap music.

Small sealed boxes have a high tuning frequency, people's bias against rap music believe this is okay. It's not, there is plenty of information below 35 Hz in lots of songs, more so than before since the lines between EDM and Rap have been blurred.

We spent over an hour with my new system; it sounds good, the crossover point is too high (120 Hz). But that doesn't explain basically nothing coming from the box below 35 hz. 

I can identify plenty of songs that have one bass note at 40+ Hz and have a second one at 31-32 Hz. So what does that mean if your F3 point is at say 50 Hz like most of these tiny boxes have?

By the time you get to 30-35 Hz it's down 6-9 db! 

Cabin gain only help so much and the car's own frequency response is likely making it worse.

This is what the OP is running into. A cheap fix might be to invert the sub and add a pound of polyfill; this is what I am going to do as soon as I locate my cordless drill...


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## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

I think he said he was missing midbass (or at least thats what he thought). So if thats the case, I dont think a larger box will help the situation. Having a bump in the response down low (like at 40Hz where his bass boost is) will make it seem like there is a lack of midbass, when really there just too much gain at 40Hz and not enough at the higher bass frequencies. I'm probably missing something.


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

> I listen to mostly rap. Songs like Slob on my Knob by Three 6 Mafia always hits hard in both of my systems, but songs like Hit em up by 2Pac, I remember hearing bass on it with my old system. That song didn't have *mad bass* that'll shake the car, but it did have a kick and sounded like a there IS a subwoofer in the car. With the new system, the bass not hittin on this song, and a good amount of other songs. I play the same songs in my friends car, and there it is.. I hear bass. Don't know what's up with the new system. I adjusted the LPF with no luck. Current settings are head unit EQ is on flat. Bass boost is off on head unit. Bass boost is on on the amp.


 He said Mad Bass, meaning "Lots of bass" not Mid-Bass.

The problem is small sealed box resulting in a high tuning frequency, exacerbated by the car itself.

I have experienced this twice and every time the culprit was a small sealed box.

Even with Bass Boost on, it doesn't help because the boost doesn't compensate for the output being further down it's ability to add.

An inexpensive thing to do would be to add a pound of poly and invert the woofer, if things improve I'm right...

I have small box blues, but I am watching the Indy Car race...


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## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

djfourmoney said:


> He said Mad Bass, meaning "Lots of bass" not Mid-Bass.
> 
> The problem is small sealed box resulting in a high tuning frequency, exacerbated by the car itself.
> 
> ...


Check post #4, he said he is missing midbass.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The OP hasn't returned to his own post in 4 weeks. Fair to say we're pissing the in wind on this one as far as help goes.


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## djfourmoney (Nov 30, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> The OP hasn't returned to his own post in 4 weeks. Fair to say we're pissing the in wind on this one as far as help goes.


 Found a few threads like this. Find the site via Google Search when answers on Amazon aren't good enough....


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## rabbit (Nov 20, 2014)

I was missing mad bass AND mid bass lol should've been more clear but anyway, I figured out the problem. I posted in this section because I wanted simple answers for a noob but everybody took it too far, but much appreciated either way.

The solution was simply changing audio sources. I was missing bass using USB but when an Ipod or phone is used to play music, all the bass comes back. I don't understand why but at least I don't have to tear my whole car apart to find out now. And no, it's not the EQ settings on the phone or ipod because they're all flat. Speaking of EQs, my Clarion VX404 head unit only has 3 bands, and you can only increase gain for 1 in each category. For bass, you can increase gain for one only of these freqs: 50hz, 100hz, or 200hz. Same for mid and treble and their freqs. What a joke, hopefully a firmware update will add a full range EQ with every freq adjustable.


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