# List of Robert Zeff / Nikola Engineering Amps



## Lanson

I did some digging and noticed DIYMA doesn't have any such list that I can tell. Has someone else compiled a running list of amps from them? If not, how about we do that here?

I know all ARC, and Zapco qualify, right? Same with Cerwin Vega EXL, and Elf Audio. Clarion DPX as well. Who else?


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## Lanson

LOL,...nobody?

I figured if we compiled a decent list, then we can find bargains out there with quality inside. Much like Zeds etc. 

I've been eying the price on the Foose FD amps lately, given that my Acura build doesn't need small amps.


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## 89grand

I'm only aware of the ones you mentioned.


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## WLDock

fourthmeal said:


> LOL,...nobody?


I think you named all of the current brands that I know of? Nevertheless, I thought the Amazon sale prices on last years Clarion amps was the "best" deal around. The DPX2251 was my favorite of the bunch. I pushed those last year...

But here in 2010, IMO I think the new Clarions might be the "Best" Zeff deals. The XH5410 and XH5210 have now been stepped up to *class GH/AB* and now *have a 10x multiplier switch on the crossover!* The amps have a very clean and modern look. I plan to use them in an install I have planned for a friend and might use them in my own install.


















*XH5410* MSRP - $499.99 (~ $205 Amazon)
Power @ 4-Ohm, 90w x 4
Power @ 2-Ohm, 160w x 4
Bridged Power @ 4-Ohm, 320w x 2
Input Voltage Sensing
Precise Frequency Control
Number of Channels, 4/3/2
MOS-FET Power Supply
2-Ohm Stable
Adjustable - 18db. High/Low Pass Crossovers, 55Hz-550Hz or 550Hz-5.5kHz with the Crossover Frequency Multiplier
Variable Bass Boost; 0-15dB @ 45Hz
Gold Plated Connectors; RCA/ Speaker/ Power
Speaker Level Input
Dimensions : 14-11/16" x 9" x 2-5/8"

*XH5210* MSRP - $299.99 (~$141 Amazon)
Power @ 4-Ohm, 90w x 2
Power @ 2-Ohm, 160w x 2
Bridged Power @ 4-Ohm, 320w x 1
Input Voltage Sensing
Precise Frequency Control
Number of Channels, 2/1
MOS-FET Power Supply
2-Ohm Stable
Adjustable - 18db. High/Low Pass Crossovers, 55Hz-550Hz or 550Hz-5.5kHz with the Crossover Frequency Multiplier
Variable Bass Boost; 0-15dB @ 45Hz
Gold Plated Connectors; RCA/ Speaker/ Power
Speaker Level Input
Dimensions : 12-7/16" x 9" x 2-5/8"


*XH7110* MSRP - $599.99 (~ $256 Amazon)
Power @ 4-Ohm, 450w x 1
Power @ 2-Ohm, 850w x 1
Input Voltage Sensing
Precise Frequency Control
Precise Frequency Selector -24dB / Oct. Low Pass Crossover, 30-230Hz
Adjustable Subsonic Filter, off/15/30Hz
Number of Channels, MONO
MOS-FET Power Supply
2-Ohm Stable
1-Ohm Mono Stable
Variable Bass Boost; 0-15dB @ 30-125Hz
Gold Plated Connectors; RCA/ Speaker/ Power
Speaker Level Input
Dimensions : 16-1/32" x 9" x 2-5/8"


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## 89grand

Those new Clarions look nice, and that's a good deal at Amazon.


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## t3sn4f2

Fans..... Yuk!


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## rommelrommel

Fans are fine, if they're loud just replace them with a good silent computer fan.


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## t3sn4f2

rommelrommel said:


> Fans are fine, if they're loud just replace them with a good silent computer fan.


MUCH easier said then done and I don't mean effort wise.


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## Lanson

Well they are pretty efficient so the fan won't be spinning too much assuming it is load-dependent or temp dependent.

Nice amps.

There's gotta be more. Check the UBuy site, it shows some pics (here and there.) I'm after the surprise unit.


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## 89grand

I would imagine in most installs, the fan couldn't be heard anyway.


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## t3sn4f2

89grand said:


> I would imagine in most installs, the fan couldn't be heard anyway.


True, personally I wouldn't risk it though. It is after all just another amp.


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## bass_lover1

89grand said:


> I would imagine in most installs, the fan couldn't be heard anyway.


I've only heard mine once. Hot ass summer day (trunk mounted), sitting in my garage with the car off. I paused the music and was like "wtf is that?" Oh yea, I forgot they're actively cooled. 

Other than that, I've never heard them again.


PS: Someone is selling the APX2180 (older model) on ebay for 40 BIN OBO + 12 shipping.


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## kvndoom

t3sn4f2 said:


> Fans..... Yuk!


The Clarion I had wasn't loud at all.


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## t3sn4f2

For me.......

1. Hot Miami weather
2. 3 or 4 amps churning together
3. I enjoy my music most when sitting in the driveway or garage on a quiet evening.
4. IB subs firing through a ski pass which removes the functionally of the back seat blocking the fan noise.

That equals no fans for me.

But anyways, didn't mean to derail this thread into a fan discussion.

Carry on........


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## WLDock

t3sn4f2 said:


> Fans..... Yuk!












Yeah, why the hell would they want to move heat with a fan? YUK!



































































All these amps have fans - YUK! 

*I think not! *

Fans are not an issue in most installs. I would be more concern with a home amp with fans.


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## t3sn4f2

WLDock said:


> Yeah, why the hell would they want to move heat with a fan? YUK!
> 
> All these amps have fans - YUK!
> 
> *I think not! *


Fan boy! :laugh:


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## Lanson

Soo... any more Zeff machines? Y'all take a look at the Ubuy site, shows some heatsinks that I'm trying to figure out where they are in the marketplace.


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## WLDock

I guess I don't care too much about the entry level stuff when their higher end can be found in the Clarion for $205 shipped. You know their market is not just in the States. What other amps are you looking at? You really can't go by the heatsinks as that is the one thing that will be different from brand to brand. maybe shoot them an email?


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## Lanson

This is all true.

The build house that does them in China also looks like they are doing Powerbass heatsinks.

And the IA series looks a whole lot like TREO RSX.


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## WLDock

t3sn4f2 said:


> Fan boy! :laugh:


 yeah, I will be a FanBoy any time if i could run some of the amps i posted in the pics.

I guess that was something I thought about when I used to drive hatchbacks but....

Now that I drive a sedan fans are not an issue. I only had a few amps with fans over the years however.


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## DS-21

If the Arc XXD is a Zeff design, then the Cerwin Vega Stealth version of them are obviously Zeff designs as well.

Those Clarions do look nice.


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## kvndoom

Those new Clarions look really sharp!

FWIW, the outgoing APX series also had the 10x multiplier button.


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## Lanson

I think 2 of the 4ch, and one mono Clarion might get 'er done.


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## WLDock

kvndoom said:


> Those new Clarions look really sharp!
> FWIW, the outgoing APX series also had the 10x multiplier button.


Damn, I don't know how I forgot that..they sure do.

As far as the new Clarions...I got my coworkers amps in....they look very modern like the pics but the end caps are plastic. That was a bit of a letdown as I thought they were metal. Nevertheless, but these amps still will look very cool in a nice comtempory install. They have a compact look and feel to them even though they are not...and they are faily lightweight. 

They match very well with the Infinity subs we plan to run. Running the 4 channel on some Pioneer TS-D720C components and maybe the rear. Running the two channel on the Infinity 10" subs at 2 Oms for 160 watts each. Should be clean at moderate volumes....that is all the owner is looking for...also wants to save space and keep things stealth.

I will take some pics tonight after work.


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## Lanson

Just found out that Bazooka pHat Tuesday amps are Class H. The Mono ones anyway. 
Anybody know squat about these?


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## ca90ss

MA Series*-*Amplifiers*-*Car-HiFi*-*Products*-*Eton GmbH


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## k-ink

Why the fascination with Robert Zeff amps? Every amp should be judged on it's own merits. 

You don't even know what his brief was from the manufacturer for each specific amp. One brief might have been - "design the best class AB amp possible". Whilst another brief could well have been "design us a cheap digital amp for only $10 worth of parts".


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## yermolovd

ya guys you know that all amps don't sound the same. some of them dont got essque.


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## habagat

Dont know if this helps but Ill give it a shot anyway. Sometime very late 80's Zeff built amps for blaupunkt just cant remember which models. If you see an old Blaupunkt made in the USA chances are it rolled off the Zapco plant.


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## habagat

k-ink said:


> Why the fascination with Robert Zeff amps? Every amp should be judged on it's own merits.
> 
> You don't even know what his brief was from the manufacturer for each specific amp. One brief might have been - "design the best class AB amp possible". Whilst another brief could well have been "design us a cheap digital amp for only $10 worth of parts".


 Why not? Recently hooked up my 20 year old entry level 4x12.5 watt to some old fostex 4 inch drivers. Sounded better than quite a few amps being passed off as sq amps.


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## WLDock

k-ink said:


> Why the fascination with Robert Zeff amps? Every amp should be judged on it's own merits.
> 
> You don't even know what his brief was from the manufacturer for each specific amp. One brief might have been - "design the best class AB amp possible". Whilst another brief could well have been "design us a cheap digital amp for only $10 worth of parts".


 You are right..!

- The ARC AUDIO SE Series was the "design the best class AB amp possible" 
- The Zapco Ref, Arc XXK, CXL, Clarion, Cerwin Vega, etc all seem to be midline products and all have VERY similar designs.
- The lower line amps on the UBUY Industrial (Taiwan) - Mobile Audio System, Mobile Video System, Class AB Amplifiers, Class D Amplifier, Class GH Amplifier, Signal Processors, Open Heatsink. site fills the budget entry level cookie cutter market.

So, yes the internet has a way of creating a demand for products but the truth is all of these amps have been bought, used, and judged for years on the merit that their PCB design are similar to previously successful Robert Zeff designs. 

*In the last ten years why would anyone really give a hoot about an amp from CLARION or CERWIN VEGA? * Because some of the early Clarion amps had designs that were similar to McIntosh so people bought them to judge them on their own merit. Then, later Clarion and Cerwin Vega amps were ZEF designs so people bought them to judge them on their own merit. Hey, Zapco built a name for itself...so naturally people were going to follow the founder.

Let the truth be told....there would not be a forum boner for Clarion or Cerwin Vega amps had they not been ZEF designed. The only way to see if they are good is to buy them based on the hope that they are good due to buildhouse....other than that...what does a person have to go by? A demo in the showroom? Or maybe magazine review? Several of the ZEF designed amps reviewed pretty well:

Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Clarion DPX2251
Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - ARC Audio XXD 4080
ARC Audio FD4150 - Test Report - Amplifier - Daily Drivers - Features - Car Audio and Electronics
ARC Audio FD4150 - Test Report - Amplifier - Daily Drivers - Features - Car Audio and Electronics
Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Arc Audio KS900.6

Is the original poster a little over zealous about finding ZEF amps? *YES!*
Is there no base for such a forum boner over ZEF designs? *HELL NO!*

The products have been good thus far and an amp like the Clarion is sure worth the just over $200 net price and then some....and that was discovered based on its OWN CHEAP NET PRICE HIGH PERFORMING MERITS!

So if we are talking ARC SE SERIES priced amps then...I agree...proceed with caution before dropping down that kind of cash. Try and demo the amp to see if it lives up to the price. However, for $200 net priced amps....I will take a ZED design vs. an unknown design any day of the week...and twice on the weekends.  What else does one have to go by when shopping on the net? Should one buy a $200 POWERBASS amp over a $200 ZEF Designed amp because it looks nice? I think not!


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## bass_lover1

k-ink said:


> Why the fascination with Robert Zeff amps? Every amp should be judged on it's own merits.
> 
> You don't even know what his brief was from the manufacturer for each specific amp. One brief might have been - "design the best class AB amp possible". Whilst another brief could well have been "design us a cheap digital amp for only $10 worth of parts".


I've done my testing (personal listening tests) and I've come to my conclusions.

I've used amps that were praised as some of the best to ever be built, and to be honest I noticed no sonic difference between the Clarions I currently used, and the other amps that were replaced. 

So, under "its own merits," I'll be using Zeff designed amps for a very long time.


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## DS-21

k-ink said:


> Why the fascination with Robert Zeff amps? Every amp should be judged on it's own merits.


I don't think it's any fascination with Mr. Zeff's designs, per se, as amps are just commodity parts. (He does seem to build reliable amps, and also pursues novel and often useful form factors, such as the Arc Mini/elfAudio 2125X amps.) 

It's more of a rational "this amp is the same as that one, except that it has a different brand name on the cover and costs x% less, so it's a better buy" value issue.


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## BadSS

I tested the CV EXLs in my system and I could not believe the performance per dollar from them ($114 for the 400.4 and a 350.2, new and delivered) I thought the stickers for the x-over settings and the light on top was a little chessy and didn't expect much from them at first. That's why you should never judge on looks and price alone. Once hooked up,, they amplified the sound just like they were supposed to do with a totally acceptable noise floor. In fact the noise floor was better than some amps costing 4x as much and better than the guy's old school Orion 280GX that he planned on running if the CVs "sucked". He sold the Orion and been pushing the stew out of those CV for close to a year now without a single problem.


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## Lanson

The reasons I'm after a Zeff amp is that I've run PG, PPI, Zed, and old MTX, and now I'm trying something different. 

I also am after higher efficiency if posisble.

FYI have any of you seen this:

--

There are results from a review database of German publication Auto-Hifi, linked from a fellow MEA member a little while back. The ratings list a lot of popular amps, so it was pretty interesting to see where they all stand. The entire Helix Competition range of amps (A2/A4/A6) scored right up the top with some of the very best amps - very impressive considering the price of them.

I've pulled a few models from the 'database' that might be popular (or of interest). I've sorted them first by the SQ rating they were given, and then by their price in Euro's.

* Audison VRx 4.300 CS2 (29/30; 1485 Euro) - [4x116 @ 4ohm]
* Audison VRx 6.420 CS2 (29/30; 1745 Euro) - [4x77 + 2x99 @ 4ohm]
* Steg Master Stroke Classe A (29/30; 1900 Euro) - [2x119 @ 4ohm]
* Brax X2400.2 Graphic Edition (29/30; 2300 Euro) - [4x148 @ 4ohm]
* Helix A2 Competition (27/30; 660 Euro) - [2x151 @ 4ohm]
* Helix A4 Competition (27/30; 700 Euro) - [4x93 @ 4ohm]
* Helix A6 Competition (27/30; 700 Euro) - [6x88 @ 4ohm]
* DLS Ultimate A4 (27/30; 1250 Euro) - [4x84 @ 4ohm]
* Sinfoni Amplitude 120.4x (27/30; 1350 Euro) - [4x148 @ 4ohm]
* Soundstream Human Reign 2 (27/30; 4500 Euro) [2x501 @ 4ohm]
* Lanzar Opti 500 XS (26/30; 900 Euro) - [2x456 @ 4ohm]
* Rockford Fosgate Power T 15004 (26/30; 1300 Euro) - [4x286 @ 4ohm]
* Zapco C2K-9.0XD (26/30; 1800 Euro) - [2x639 @ 4ohm] <-- wholy cow!!
* Helix B2 Precision (25/30; 380 Euro) - [2x138 @ 4ohm]
* DLS Ultimate A2 (25/30; 675 Euro) - [2x86 @ 4ohm]
* Helix B4 Precision (24/30; 400 euro) - [4x70 @ 4ohm]
* DLS Reference RA20 (24/30; 480 Euro) - [2x136 @ 4ohm]
* DLS Reference RA40 (24/30; 520 Euro) - [4x77 @ 4ohm]
* Soundstream VGA 800.5 (24/30; 950 Euro) - [4x90 + 1x302 @ 4ohm]
* Pheonix Gold Ti 500.4 (24/30; 1300 Euro) - [4x87 @ 4ohm]
* Boston Acoustics GT-28 (23/30; 780 Euro) - [2x221 @ 4ohm]
* Precision Power DCX 1000.4 (23/30; 1150 Euro) - [4x114 @ 4ohm]
* Audiosystem Twister F2-500 (22/30; 400 Euro) - [2x214 @ 4ohm]
* Zapco Reference 750.2 (22/30; 580 Euro) - [2x209 @ 4ohm]
* Alpine MRV-F 545 (22/30; 650 Euro) - [4x165 @ 4ohm]
* Zapco Reference 650.6 (22/30; 800 Euro) - [6x64 @ 4ohm]
* Clarion APA 4320 (20/30; 400 Euro) - [4x86 @ 4ohm]
* Audiosystem Twister F4-600 (20/30; 450 Euro) - [4x142 @ 4ohm]
* Audison LRx 4.300 (20/30; 515 Euro) - [4x69 @ 4ohm]
* Focal FP4.75 (20/30; 550 Euro) - [4x77 @ 4ohm]
* Audiosystem twister F4-380 (19/30; 350 euro) - [4x93 @ 4ohm]
* Steg QM 75.4x (19/30; 375 Euro) - [4x79 @ 4ohm]
* Audison SRx3 (18/30; 425 Euro) - [2x71 + 1x253 @ 4ohm]
* Audiosystem Twister F6-380 (18/30; 450 Euro) - [6x64 @ 4omh]
* Audison SRx4 (17/30; 330 Euro) - [4x63 @ 4ohm]
* Alpine MRV-F450 (16/30; 550 Euro) - [4x65 + 1x187]

For the record, don't think that the amps are the bottom of the list are necessarilly badly rated - I only listed the ones I felt might be of interest here, and there were some amps with scores as low as 7/30....so the ones at the bottom of this list still faired pretty well.

I've highlighted (in bold) some of the ranges mentioned in this thread - note that the Audison LRx is the old model, not the current one.

Now, I know that just because one publication says something doesn't immediately mean it's an undisputable fact - but I posted this anyway because I thought that the sheer range of amps tested (including some mentioned in this thread) makes it interesting reading. You'll generally find that the way the amps are rated here seems to be pretty consistent with other independant reviews on the net as well, so it seems like they are reasonably reliable.

---

Found that list a while ago. Very interesting!


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## crux131

Speaking of Zef, and ARC mini, and Cerwin Vega...










Interesting...in as far as I like ( at least the old school ) Cerwin Vega, and would like to have a small form factor amp set up.


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## WLDock

Here are some pics of the Clarions:

















Nice and shiny...they match the Infinity's pretty well. Not bad for about $450!


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## WLDock

hey lets make this a picture thread...thanks to me...sorry.

But for a high power/space not an issue setup, the Cerwin Vega STROKER amps might be a nice choice:

S800.4
125X4 @ 4 ohms
200 X 4 @ 2 ohms
400 X 2 @ 4 ohms bridged

S1000.1
400 X 1 @ 4 ohms
750X1 @ 2 ohms
1000 X 1 @ 1 ohm

S2000.1
1000 X 1 @ 4 ohms
1500X4 @ 2 ohms
2000 X 1 @ 1 ohm


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## Rodek

Bazooka MGA4150 is a Zeff design too.


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## Lanson

Rodek said:


> Bazooka MGA4150 is a Zeff design too.




wha wha whaaat?!

How is that, how do you know?


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## Bilbo99

Wow, pretty slick amps. Can anyone give me a comparison of how the XH7110 would stack up against the Alpine MRP-M1000 I have sitting on a shelf awaiting a subwoofer choice? Similar power output but I love the look of the Clarions.

How about the XH5210 vs an Alpine MRP-F600?

I ask because I love the look of the Clarions and could probably sell these Alpines which are BNIB (paid $250 for the pair) and buy the Clarions.

Have Arc 4150 and 2500 CXL's in our Jetta and love them.

Bottom line is how much better of an amp are these ZEF Clarions than my 2nd tier Alpine (not PDX's).

Thanks.


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## Lanson

Probably not an audible difference, but look at the CEA-2006 ratings on both, that will give you an idea of how much power you'll gain or lose.

I'd assume a lower noise floor as well, but I've only heard the MRP's on an amp board, not in a car.



Getting back to the MGA4150, how can you tell it was made by Zeff? That's a very big deal because they are dirt cheap online, and supposedly very potent.


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## Lanson

Holy-moly, did a little research on the Mardi-Gras (pHat Tuesday) amps. They are CEA-2006 rated, and Rodek (member here, not the company) apparently own(ed) them and found them quite potent.

I can't verify on my own if they are Zeff or not, but they might be the ultimate budget contender out there. I like the liquid cooling idea too.


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## cam2Xrunner

I was thinking of getting a mga4150 and the MGA11500H, hard to beat for the money, and if they're both Class H, even better. I wonder what the dimensions are.


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## Lanson

I think the /H ending models are the class H, the rest are A/B from what I've read. Also, throw in the model name in google, there are some sizes there.


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## cam2Xrunner

Good idea. Found this thread about the 4150. Rodek seems to like it. I think I'm going to get a set of these amps until I can get the LRx5.1k

Mga4150 - Club Bazooka


360 shipped for a 100wx4 and 1550wx1, very hard to beat, with full 1 year warranty from the factory as well.


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## Lanson

Don't forget, 8% bing.cashback and 2% ebaybucks too.

And check this out:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/75437-bazooka-mga11500h-1550-x1-rms-class-h.html

borrowed pics from Rodek:


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## cam2Xrunner

I wonder if the Bazooka logo can be removed


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## Rodek

cam2Xrunner said:


> I wonder if the Bazooka logo can be removed


The Logo is part of the diagnostic lighting system. You could remove it but, you'd end up with a cosmetically challenged amp and be unable to tell if there was a problem. 

These amps are true sleepers. In particular the MGA11500H, MGA11000H and MGA4150.


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## Rodek

fourthmeal said:


> Holy-moly, did a little research on the Mardi-Gras (pHat Tuesday) amps. They are CEA-2006 rated, and Rodek (member here, not the company) apparently own(ed) them and found them quite potent.
> 
> I can't verify on my own if they are Zeff or not, but they might be the ultimate budget contender out there. I like the liquid cooling idea too.


An Bazooka tech confirmed when I asked about the 4150's circuit board.


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## Lanson

Given they are liquid-cooled (optionally), I suppose you could hide the entire amp and deal with the cosmetics that way.

These sound like top contenders IMO, perhaps a new budget SQ champion.


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## Rodek

I'm so impressed with the output and clarity of the 4150 running in 3 channel mode that I considering not even installing the MGA11500H it puts out a lot of power. Where was this amp back in 91 when I was running 8 12's in my SPL days?


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## cam2Xrunner

Too bad they don't have a 5 channel with the 4150+11500h in one chassis. 

Still thinking about getting these...


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## TamaDrumz76

Well hello! I'm newly registered here, but I've been a lurker for some time. 

I happened to take notice of this thread about Nikola/Zeff designed amps. I figured I'd chime in. I own the 2008/2009 Clarion APX and DPX amplifiers (DPX2251, APX4361, and DPX11551) and prior to those, owned the 2007 APX and DPX (APX2180, APX4240, DPX1800) amps.

I must admit, they are excellent amps, and I enjoy the last gen (2008/2009) models even more than the first ones I had. I've taken 'amp gut' shots of all of them. I figured I would post the link to them in my Photobucket. Also, I have the hard to locate Clarion amp Application guide, which is something that probably should have been packaged with the amps, but I believe was only distributed to retailers/installers. I'll link that too, as its a very good read. It really details the features/specs of the amps like no other source. Teaches you a lot about the G/H topology and other great features. 

Pics of amps are located here(just keep flipping through the pictures for all of them): MazdaAudio :: APX4361-aLarge.jpg picture by Tama_drumz_76 - Photobucket

Clarion APX/DPX Application guide: http://transidium.com/temp/2009 Clarion Application Guide - Amplifiers.pdf

Definitely worth a look through. The pictures are pretty detailed and that guide is a great read for anybody interested. I can't say enough good things about these amps... They're efficient, sound fantastic, powerful, and extremely well made. I definitely feel they were worth much more than I paid for them. ---If you continue looking through the Photobucket you'll likely find a bunch of other equipment as well, like drivers I've used and whatnot.

Take care!


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## cvjoint

I've been wondering whether those new Clarion XH7110 amps can hold 1 ohm load. Clarion says yes on the site but no in the manual. The comparable ARC audio models are 1 ohm stable, so I wonder...

I need to run three 4 ohm subs together, that would be 1.33 load. Any bets?


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## TamaDrumz76

See if you can get a hold of the 2010 Clarion application guide. That has all the specs, in detail, of all their amps and whatnot. I do not have the 2010, but I have previous years... Maybe someone on here can link to 2010?


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## RG_Nik

cvjoint said:


> I've been wondering whether those new Clarion XH7110 amps can hold 1 ohm load. Clarion says yes on the site but no in the manual. The comparable ARC audio models are 1 ohm stable, so I wonder...
> 
> I need to run three 4 ohm subs together, that would be 1.33 load. Any bets?


Clarion has strict testing requirements for thermal. Though the amplifier is stable into a 1 ohm load, it may thermally cycle in a short period. I can make no claims as to Clarion's warranty coverage into loads not explicitly listed.

For proof of a Nikola designed board, look in the foil layers. You can find a NI Nikola Engineering on all of our boards. We try to keep that as a mark of quality for all of our customers.

RG


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## WLDock

cvjoint said:


> I've been wondering whether those new Clarion XH7110 amps can hold 1 ohm load. Clarion says yes on the site but no in the manual. The comparable ARC audio models are 1 ohm stable, so I wonder...
> 
> I need to run three 4 ohm subs together, that would be 1.33 load. Any bets?


Not speced at 1 Ohm in the more accurate than the website Clarion 2010 application guide:
2010 Amplifiers

So you want to run THREE 4 Ohm subs? Maybe check out the CERWIN VEGA S1000.1 or S2000.1?

*S800.4 *
CLASS AB
125X4 @ 4 ohms
200 X 4 @ 2 ohms
400 X 2 @ 4 ohms bridged
Power Supply Full PWM 
Topology - Class AB
Frequency Responnse 20Hz-30KHz 
Battery Voltage Range for Operation 10.8VDC - 15.0VDC 
S/N Ratio >80dB 
Total Harmonic Distortion
THD 4 Ohm per Channel <0.2% 
THD 2 Ohm per Channel <0.4% 
THD 4 Ohm Bridged Mono <0.5% 
Input Sensitivity
Low Input Level 100mV - 5V 
High Input Level 2.0V~>10.0V 
Input Impedance
Low Input Level 22K 
High Input Level 470 Ohm 
Crossover - Variable High-Pass 50Hz - 250Hz



*S1000.1*
CLASS GH
400 X 1 @ 4 ohms
750X1 @ 2 ohms
1000 X 1 @ 1 ohm

*S2000.1*
CLASS GH
1000 X 1 @ 4 ohms
1500X4 @ 2 ohms
2000 X 1 @ 1 ohm

Power Supply - Full PWM 
Topology - Class GH Class GH
Frequency Responnse - 20Hz-250Hz 
Battery Voltage Range for Operation - 10.8VDC - 15.0VDC
S/N Ratio >90dB 
*Total Harmonic Distortion*
THD 4 Ohm <0.05% 
THD 2 Ohm <0.05% 
THD 1 Ohm <0.08% 
Input Sensitivity - Low Input Level 100mV 
Input Impedance - Low Input Level 22K Ohm 
Crossover - Variable Low-Pass 40-250Hz 



*S1000.1*
















*S2000.1*
















_Photos Posted by TheAbunai at Hawaii Car Audio
http://www.hawaiicaraudio.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=3367_

Also, the BAZOOKA Mardi Gras pHat Tuesday amps are 1 Ohm rated and supposed Zeff design - good prices on these. That MGA11500H does 810 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms (1,550 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms) 1-ohm stable (1,222 watts RMS x 1 at one ohm) for about $225 on ebay!


----------



## fertigaudio

Congratulations to all of you for doing your homework. This is something I have been looking into for sometime and you stumbled upon it and started the thread before I even got here.

Everyone on here is pretty sure of the old-school SQ amps and they are in high demand. I even find myself looking at old PPI and Orion on eBay trying to decide if I want to go old or new school.

This was the find of a year for me. I carry and stock the XH Clarions and the Arc XXD amps. Another cool thing was that you found bazooka on the list; definite sleeper. Cerwin Vega also nice to see.

As was said before don't just base your purchase off the builder, however this is where I would start and then audition. 

Thank you guys.


----------



## cvjoint

RG_Nik said:


> Clarion has strict testing requirements for thermal. Though the amplifier is stable into a 1 ohm load, it may thermally cycle in a short period. I can make no claims as to Clarion's warranty coverage into loads not explicitly listed.
> 
> RG


Thanks a bunch! Can you go into more detail on what exactly will happen at 1.33 ohms. Will it go into protect mode at times? I'm more than happy to give up on the warranty if I know it works. 



WLDock said:


> Not speced at 1 Ohm in the more accurate than the website Clarion 2010 application guide:
> 2010 Amplifiers
> 
> So you want to run THREE 4 Ohm subs? Maybe check out the CERWIN VEGA S1000.1 or S2000.1?
> 
> 
> *S1000.1*
> CLASS GH
> 400 X 1 @ 4 ohms
> 750X1 @ 2 ohms
> 1000 X 1 @ 1 ohm
> 
> *S1000.1*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /v711/WLDock/Car%20Audio/2001g.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the BAZOOKA Mardi Gras pHat Tuesday amps are 1 Ohm rated and supposed Zeff design - good prices on these. That MGA11500H does 810 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms (1,550 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms) 1-ohm stable (1,222 watts RMS x 1 at one ohm) for about $225 on ebay!


Hot! I'll look them up, definitely nice options. I need to run 3 IB subs, power requirement is a measly 500w if that but the 1.33 ohm stability is key.

Wait...the 5410 is not GH class??? Sadness, I already got one. Are there any GH 4 channels? Thanks!



fertigaudio said:


> Everyone on here is pretty sure of the old-school SQ amps and they are in high demand. I even find myself looking at old PPI and Orion on eBay trying to decide if I want to go old or new school.


Imo old amps are overrated. The board ages, I've even seen some of those older PPI rust! There are great new amplifiers at great prices, no reason to linger with the dying.


----------



## fertigaudio

cvjoint said:


> Thanks a bunch! Can you go into more detail on what exactly will happen at 1.33 ohms. Will it go into protect mode at times? I'm more than happy to give up on the warranty if I know it works.
> 
> 
> 
> Hot! I'll look them up, definitely nice options. I need to run 3 IB subs, power requirement is a measly 500w if that but the 1.33 ohm stability is key. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Imo old amps are overrated. The board ages, I've even seen some of those older PPI rust! There are great new amplifiers at great prices, no reason to linger with the dying.


You can run most 2 ohm amps at 1.33 seeing how the speakers actual resistance changes with frequency. And rarely plays around that. But I would still recommend a 1 ohm stable amp.

If I bought old school it would be new in box stuff. If its rusted thats not the amps fault that would be the guy who doesnt install it properly and leaves it in his moms leaky minivan. 

If and when you buy make sure to review it for us. Thanks.


----------



## TamaDrumz76

I know the 2007 Clarion amps were rated with 1ohm stability. I had those as well, had a DPX1800 (and APX2180/APX4240). The DPX with 1ohm stability, if I remember correctly, put out the same power at 1 and 2ohm, but the wiring flexibility was there. The 2008/2009 and 2010 amps look to be made just as rugged, if not more-so and better cooling solutions than the '07s, so I would expect it to be a thermal thing. I have 4 of the 2008/2009 amps and absolutely love them, best quality amps I've ever owned and I've owned some old school products back in previous cars as well.


----------



## fertigaudio

Seems the Bazooka is a bit noisy based on spec again cant always base it on this until you have heard it but its not the cleanest Class H.
THD at Rated RMS Power	0.3%
Signal to Noise Ratio	72 dB
Input Voltage	14.4v

Clarions XH7110 seem to be in the same arena.
THD at 4 ohms	<1%
Signal to Noise Ratio	68 dB
Input Voltage	14.4v

ARC xxd 1500
THD at Rated RMS Power	0.08%
Signal to Noise Ratio	65 dB
Input Voltage	14.4v

Cerwin Vega 2000.1 or 1000.1 *CLEANEST AND CLOSEST TO SQ ON THIS LIST*
THD at Rated RMS Power	0.05%
Signal to Noise Ratio	90 dB
Input Voltage	14.4v


----------



## TamaDrumz76

fertigaudio said:


> Seems the Bazooka is a bit noisy based on spec again cant always base it on this until you have heard it but its not the cleanest Class H.
> THD at Rated RMS Power	0.3%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	72 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v
> 
> Clarions XH7110 seem to be in the same arena.
> THD at 4 ohms	<1%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	68 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v
> 
> ARC xxd 1500
> THD at Rated RMS Power	0.08%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	65 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v
> 
> Cerwin Vega 2000.1 or 1000.1 *CLEANEST AND CLOSEST TO SQ ON THIS LIST*
> THD at Rated RMS Power	0.05%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	90 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v


Are they all rating them the same? I know often many companies A-weight their testing, which tends to give nicer looking figures by comparison to not using any weighting. When you even the playing field sometimes (for example) the lower rated signal to noise amps(not based on A-weighting) are actually higher than the ones boasting a bigger number. I believe on bcae1.com, there is the equation to convert the figures to the same basis.

EDIT: If they're all CEA-2006, then the figures should be the same... Should...


----------



## cvjoint

TamaDrumz76 said:


> I know the 2007 Clarion amps were rated with 1ohm stability. I had those as well, had a DPX1800 (and APX2180/APX4240).


The site won't let me look up 2007 product range but yeah, I think it's just a liability issue. I just want to make sure it doesn't have a low impedance safety mode that always throws me in protection. Heat wise it will be more than fine, the subs don't need that much power in IB. 



fertigaudio said:


> Seems the Bazooka is a bit noisy based on spec again cant always base it on this until you have heard it but its not the cleanest Class H.


HaHa don't worry about it. The S/N specs are some of the dubious in industry. If it's not CEA rated don't even look at it. A few years back I bought a $1200 Kicker amplifier. SX900.4 or something like that. It was rated for 100 S/N ratio, so I thought SQ! A year later CEA kicked in, they tested it in the 60s. It was indeed one of the noisiest of all amplifiers, but that was a 4 channel. For subwoofer use the S/N has never been an issue for me. I would guess all these GH monoblocks do 68, like the Clarion CEA rating.


----------



## fertigaudio

That is definately something to take into consideration. Not one of those said A weighted. A is used for low level testing and has a narrower bandwidth at a given gain. A sucks because its only for a given frequency or tone. Not for music. 

CEA rating is dBA absolute, not A weighted. I am pretty sure all the above amps I posted are NOT A weighted making what i have found the CV Stroker 2000.1 to be the cleanest series.

ARC KS 1000.1
# Transient Distortion (400W): <.05% @ 4ohm
# Signal to Noise Ratio (A wtg.): >112dB

this amp is as much as the vega and actually much mroe but notice half the power is .05 and the A wtg is 112db just looks false. Bad ARC! BAD!


----------



## TamaDrumz76

I never trust them damn A-weighted figures. I wanna know what the amp can really do, not when given special treatment.


----------



## PimpMySound

The Arc KS uses SMD technoloy, while the Cerwin Vegas and the Bazooka has tru hole parts. The closest amps to the ARC KS amps are the Clarions from 08/09.


----------



## fertigaudio

PimpMySound said:


> The Arc KS uses SMD technoloy, while the Cerwin Vegas and the Bazooka has tru hole parts. The closest amps to the ARC KS amps are the Clarions from 08/09.


Steve Mead designs aka SMD has his own technology. That guy is absorbing the industry. J/K (surface mount device =SMD)

Another great comparison. Although I am not sure its been proven that that SMD is any less capable or less "clean" than the through hole designed boards.


----------



## Luke352

fertigaudio said:


> Steve Mead designs aka SMD has his own technology. That guy is absorbing the industry. J/K (surface mount device =SMD)
> 
> Another great comparison. Although I am not sure its been proven that that SMD is any less capable or less "clean" than the through hole designed boards.


SMD stuff is generally considered better actually, SMD components typically are finer tolerance and also better at rejecting RF interferance.


----------



## fertigaudio

Luke352 said:


> SMD stuff is generally considered better actually, SMD components typically are finer tolerance and also better at rejecting RF interferance.


I agree, I thought pimpmysound was saying that the through hole was better or not comparable.


----------



## WLDock

Clarion talked a little about it in their Application guide, which is nice to see them offering their dealers something nice to read that is filled with useful information. :2010 Amplifiers

_*Amplifier Circuit Components
Any product is only as good as its weakest link. The decision was made to design our XH amplifiers with surface mount technology (SMT) devices. SMT devices offer improved tolerances as compared to through-hole devices, and better resist electrical interference from RF or EMI noise.*_




cvjoint said:


> Wait...the 5410 is not GH class??? Sadness, I already got one. Are there any GH 4 channels? Thanks!


Yeah, they really screwed up on the website. When you compare the specs to the ARC AUDIO KS300.4 you would think that they are similar and both class GH but.....I guess Clarion saved some money and went with the AB offereing. So if you have to have a Class H 4 channel then the ARC is the way to go. Or you can find a couple of Clarion DPX2251 180 w x 2 class GH amps for about the same price of the 90w x 4 ARC....._*How do you want your power served up?*_




fertigaudio said:


> Seems the Bazooka is a bit noisy based on spec again cant always base it on this until you have heard it but its not the cleanest Class H.
> THD at Rated RMS Power	0.3%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	72 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v
> 
> Clarions XH7110 seem to be in the same arena.
> THD at 4 ohms	<1%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	68 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v
> 
> ARC xxd 1500
> THD at Rated RMS Power	0.08%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	65 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v
> 
> Cerwin Vega 2000.1 or 1000.1 *CLEANEST AND CLOSEST TO SQ ON THIS LIST*
> THD at Rated RMS Power	0.05%
> Signal to Noise Ratio	90 dB
> Input Voltage	14.4v


That Bazooka does not look any different than the other amps....and who knows what the Cerwin Vega spec is based off. We REALLY need to know what methods they are using....I think this is another reason why there is a cult following of proven design build houses...The inconsistency in specs.

Nevertheless, all come from reputable companies that use the same build house and sell to large distributors/ retailers. I would guess these all to be solid amps that offer more value than some other comparable products. Even though some of these amps can be had on the net for just over $200 many of them had MSRP's that were much higher. These Zeff amps allow companies to offer a solid product in a the mid price range because they did not have to spend a ton of cash to R&D from the ground up.

Also, as far as specs.....Clarion talks about the benefits of class GH vs.class D on page 3 of their guide. Just based on a good design alone I would want to have a class GH over a class D. Several of these Zeff amps have been tested and have done fine. I have no doubt that the $225 ebay 1500 watt class H Bazooka amp would bring life to many of the lifeless substages out there that need a cheap boost. I would rather have it than a comparable $225 class D amp. I am sure the real world specs would not be as nice.


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Yeah, I noticed the 5410 said GH on their website, then app guide said A/B, so it is exactly like the previous generation. Either way, they are pretty efficient.


----------



## fertigaudio

TamaDrumz76 said:


> Yeah, I noticed the 5410 said GH on their website, then app guide said A/B, so it is exactly like the previous generation. Either way, they are pretty efficient.


Yeah its clear as mud... I like both the ARC and the Clarions. It would appear the KAR or KS series from ARC is a clean design but its a weighted in their booklet and THD is listed at 100 watts only. Its funny that through hole amps like the CV offer a cleaner output by the numbers. Just goes to show you there is no consistency in amp design and/or build (SMD vs thru) 

Clarion is 86 and CEA comp.
Arc is 96 and listed as A weighted.

If it is the same amp Clarion is being more forthcoming in their specs.


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Here's something that's even more interesting...

Comparing the two A/B class amps (Clarion APX4361/XH5410 vs Cerwin Vega S800.4)

Clarion:
Frequency Response (±1.0dB) 10 Hz to 50kHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (CEA-2006) > 86 dB
Noise Floor < 2mV
Channel Separation >70dB
[email protected] Rated Output 0.05 %

Vega:
Frequency Responnse 20Hz-30KHz 
S/N Ratio >80dB 
Total Harmonic Distortion
THD 4 Ohm per Channel <0.2% 
THD 2 Ohm per Channel <0.4% 
THD 4 Ohm Bridged Mono <0.5% 

Here the Clarion is sporting cleaner numbers (in both THD and SNR) and a broader frequency response. I can't compare channel seperation or noise floor as Vegas specs aren't posted.


----------



## fertigaudio

Brick Tamland: I love… carpet.
[pause]
Brick Tamland: I love… desk.
Ron Burgundy: Brick, are you just looking at things in the office and saying that you love them?
Brick Tamland: I love lamp.
Ron Burgundy: Do you really love the lamp, or are you just saying it because you saw it?
Brick Tamland: I love lamp. I love lamp.

Fertig Audio: I love Clarion. I love Clarion.


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Another thing worth noting for some people if you are considering buying either the Clarions or the Vegas is that the Vegas high-pass filter on their multi-channel amps only goes from 50hz to 250hz... no X10 switch, nor do I see anything about the steps in the potentiometers so you know exactly what freq. you're filtering at like on the Clarions (which makes them even more useful for people starting to venture into active setups). 

I know the ARC also has the x10 switch, but does it have the steps in the potentiometers? I would think so, but I don't know for sure.


----------



## cvjoint

You guys are driving me nuts with the spec sheets, clearly Clarion can't even get it right from the manual to the site, do you really think you can compare S/N ratings, especially when only one is CEA? 

I would say the choices are:
4ch
ARC mini for GH efficiency and small form
ARC KS for GH and more power
Clarion for price tag and more power
** no clear winner**pick either small form, price point, efficiency
2ch
ARC mini for GH efficiency and small form
Clarion DPX for GH, price, more power
ARC KS loses the fight imo, doesn't do anything more than the DPX but costs a lot more
**no clear winner** clear loser ARC KS
1CH
Arc mini for GH and small form
Clarion for GH, price
ARC KS for 1 ohm stability? we will see
If the Bazooka and CV don't have SMD I'm checking them off the list
**no clear winner** we may have three clear losers if Clarion is 1 ohm stable: KS, Bazooka and CV


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Sorry, I wasn't trying to throw those specs at you specifically... more so just more info to the thread in general.


----------



## WLDock

I think the choices are all pretty clear as well....There is not much to gain from the specs....I don't see a dog in the bunch.

On the Best slickdeals day of the year the ARCs are still going to cost more money than the Clarion or anything else.. Just not too long ago the last gen Clarions were as low as $149 for the 4 ch, $122 for the DPX2251, and ~$180-$220 for the DPX11551. Could have bought one of each for 2270 clean watts for *$451!!!* $0.20 a watt! At that price I just have a hard time spending more for amps.

One can see from the test in PAS that the Clarions are solid amps that are true to spec. Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Clarion DPX2251

So pay ARC money or find a Clarion on sale that works for you......if you can't .....then find a deal on the others. Simple! Keep an eye on ebay and Amazon.....


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Yeah, actually when Amazon was selling the 08/09 amps for real cheap is when I upgraded to them. I had '07s prior but decided to change my setup and needed more power. I got many of those amps for very little and then just picked up an additional APX4361 at buy.com a month or so ago for 113$ + shipping... That was one heck of a deal there.


----------



## fertigaudio

cvjoint said:


> You guys are driving me nuts with the spec sheets, clearly Clarion can't even get it right from the manual to the site, do you really think you can compare S/N ratings, especially when only one is CEA?
> 
> CV


It looks like you have found what you are looking for. Sorry to throw around all those numbers, I really enjoy this too much and some people dont feel the same when it comes to meaningless specs. They are all good amps for the money.


----------



## Lanson

RG_Nik said:


> Clarion has strict testing requirements for thermal. Though the amplifier is stable into a 1 ohm load, it may thermally cycle in a short period. I can make no claims as to Clarion's warranty coverage into loads not explicitly listed.
> 
> For proof of a Nikola designed board, look in the foil layers. You can find a NI Nikola Engineering on all of our boards. We try to keep that as a mark of quality for all of our customers.
> 
> RG


This qualifies as of the best first posts ever. Thank you RG for your "from the trenches" perspective. 

I have a request, if its not too much or not against the "rules"...

Can you supply a list of Zeff/Nik amps currently available? We know about Bazooka, Clarion, and CV, (and of course ARC), but are there others?

Thanks again.


----------



## WLDock

yeah, we would like to know....


----------



## RG_Nik

Well no trenches here really. It's a fun, challenging and fast paced work.
I do go and check how our designs are being received once in a while across the internet, and wouldn't have posted except the thread was still running.

Nikola designs 10-15 amplifiers a year. So yes, there are many more out there. Not all designs go into production, and some take more then a year to complete. And some are just cosmetic design refreshes of a previous model that perform well. Sorry, I really can't give names myself, but a little digging and it's pretty obvious. Class GH really has been a Nikola specialty for the past several years. I found this thread when doing some update work for UBUY's website so assume most have found that to see what base model designs are currently available for OEM/ODM sales. 

Recently we have been working on compacting the size of the Class GH amplifiers for confined space applications. And ruggedizing the designs for marine or other exposed applications.

To answer a few of the other questions:
The CV Multichannel amps, and Clarion amps have really, very little in common with each other. They should be judged as individual pieces not as minor revisions of the same design. No, Arc does not use detented pots for the crossover frequency adjustment, that is just a cosmetic decision within each company. Yes the Clarion amp is stable into one ohm. It is still a refresh of the original 2006 series amplifier. Everyone benefits from all the design work we do, as any small improvement in one amplifier will effect all future amplifiers that are produced. And because it will come up, none of us in the office, except the IT guy, have anything but stock in our cars. Not because we don't want too, but because we are always working on the next design we would rather put in our vehicles. 

RG



fourthmeal said:


> This qualifies as of the best first posts ever. Thank you RG for your "from the trenches" perspective.
> 
> I have a request, if its not too much or not against the "rules"...
> 
> Can you supply a list of Zeff/Nik amps currently available? We know about Bazooka, Clarion, and CV, (and of course ARC), but are there others?
> 
> Thanks again.


----------



## fertigaudio

Very well executed. Any plans in the future of doing your own brand and product line? Maybe bringing some MFG back to the homeland?


----------



## TamaDrumz76

RG_Nik, thanks for that info.

One small question, if you can answer it. As far as I understand, the Ubuy facility is in Taiwan, but many of these amplifiers say "Made in China" on them. I know Taiwan is a Republic of China, but typically it would still say "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in Taiwan R.O.C.".

I really don't care either way, it just sort of confused me; unless of course Ubuy has another build house in China-mainland as well?


----------



## RG_Nik

Not likely. It takes a lot of work to properly market, package a product. And Nikola really is just really good at doing the engineering design work. The current arrangement is pretty ideal for us and our customers. 

Sometimes we do get a chance to just go hog wild on an amplifier and throw everything we can into it. Like the Arc SE line. And our newest DSP front end designs. But in general, our ideal amplifier would have only a gain control. With all crossovers as a separate piece. The market for that is pretty small so doesn't make since to do it.

If we were to make a Nikola branded product, it would more likely be an AC powered amplifier at this point. In general we are proud of all our designs, and do include our name on all of our amplifier and processor pieces.

RG



fertigaudio said:


> Very well executed. Any plans in the future of doing your own brand and product line? Maybe bringing some MFG back to the homeland?


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Just looking at the new Ubuy website, much more info and much better pictures. You can clearly see which some of those amps are by the chassis/sinks though!


----------



## RG_Nik

UBUY has offices in Taiwan, and mainland China. As well as representatives in Hong Kong. They use their own, and other carefully approved factories in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan for production based on cost, timing, and production line features. 

RG



TamaDrumz76 said:


> RG_Nik, thanks for that info.
> 
> One small question, if you can answer it. As far as I understand, the Ubuy facility is in Taiwan, but many of these amplifiers say "Made in China" on them. I know Taiwan is a Republic of China, but typically it would still say "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in Taiwan R.O.C.".
> 
> I really don't care either way, it just sort of confused me; unless of course Ubuy has another build house in China-mainland as well?


----------



## fertigaudio

Have you seen this Zeff nikola amp on the ubuy site, holy moley


----------



## jonnyanalog

I think amazon hsa the CV stealth amps for between $215-$220 with $5 shipping; 4 channel amps and mono amps. The 2 ch is cheaper.
I should have my CV sx500.1 to test against my BPX500.1. I know its apples to oranges but I want to see how the CV puts the power down.


----------



## TamaDrumz76

fertigaudio said:


> Have you seen this Zeff nikola amp on the ubuy site, holy moley


It's one of these.


----------



## cvjoint

Thanks RG, this thread just got several times more useful! :biggrinflip: Ideally we would also want to know whether say the DPX 2251 is any different than the KS 300.2 haha 

I guess I'll have to replace my Clarion XH5410s with some affordable 4 channel GH counterparts down the line. Maybe you guys will make some for Clarion soon so they are affordable for grad students.


----------



## RG_Nik

Every amp is different, even if the differences are small. But every change does have an effect. All I can recommend is buy the best amp you can afford, and we will continue to design the best amplifiers we can. There are lots of other great design teams out there too. So make a good informed decision, and then go gung-ho with it. And if the amplifier has problems, take the manufacturer up on the warranty. It's the best way to make sure that future models are always improving.

RG 



cvjoint said:


> Thanks RG, this thread just got several times more useful! :biggrinflip: Ideally we would also want to know whether say the DPX 2251 is any different than the KS 300.2 haha
> 
> I guess I'll have to replace my Clarion XH5410s with some affordable 4 channel GH counterparts down the line. Maybe you guys will make some for Clarion soon so they are affordable for grad students.


----------



## cvjoint

RG_Nik said:


> But in general, our ideal amplifier would have only a gain control. With all crossovers as a separate piece. The market for that is pretty small so doesn't make since to do it.
> 
> 
> RG


Oh please do make something like this. The majority of users on this site pay for redundancy with all the built in features. There are just so many active headunits, stand alone processors, and opportunities to build a carputer that will do it better if I may say so.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

cvjoint said:


> Oh please do make something like this. The majority of users on this site pay for redundancy with all the built in features. There are just so many active headunits, stand alone processors, and opportunities to build a carputer that will do it better if I may say so.


This is already available from other manus. Some without even a gain pot.


----------



## 00poop6x

6spdcoupe said:


> This is already available from other manus. Some without even a gain pot.


You missed the part where they want it on eBay and sonic.


----------



## cvjoint

6spdcoupe said:


> This is already available from other manus. Some without even a gain pot.


list please!

well...PM so we keep this on topic


----------



## cvjoint

00poop6x said:


> You missed the part where they want it on eBay and sonic.


Actually, if you were to do a little bit of research, the majority of last year's Clarions were bought by our members from Crutchfield. I personally bought 5 of them from their e-store. Out of the 20 or so amplifiers I've owned only 1 came from Ebay and it worked great.


----------



## TamaDrumz76

Yeah, I purchased all my 2007 Clarion amps from CarDomain website(authorized and RIP cardomain) and then my newer ones from Amazon and Crutchfield (both again authorized) with the exception of the super good deal on the extra APX4361 from buy.com.


----------



## PimpMySound

The new German buildt BRAX Matrix amps, for example, only have gain pots.


----------



## 8675309

They sound nice



89grand said:


> Those new Clarions look nice, and that's a good deal at Amazon.


----------



## cvjoint

PimpMySound said:


> The new German buildt BRAX Matrix amps, for example, only have gain pots.


Brax High-end Car Audio, The Brax Graphic Edition Amplifiers - BRAX X 2000.2 2-CHANNEL AMPLIFIER, BRAX X 2400.2 4-CHANNEL AMPLIFIER, BRAX X 2000.2 GRAPHIC EDITION 2-CHANNEL AMPLIFIER, BRAX X 2400.2 GRAPHIC EDITION 4-CHANNEL AMPLIFIER

Note the variable crossover.


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## fertigaudio

PimpMySound said:


> The new German buildt BRAX Matrix amps, for example, only have gain pots.


From Brax website:
A complete new conceived circuit board and finest careful selected components are the features of the new model X 2000.2 as well as both Graphic Editions. That guarantees their audiophile sound quality.The new generation has variable active crossover per channel to guarantee the opTIM Distortionum operation of the loudspeakers. They can be used as highpass, lowpass or bandpass and they are switchable from 12 dB to 24 dB. The frequency range is from 15 Hz up to 4.5 kHz.


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## s4k4zulu

Those brax looks great. Wish they were smaller


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## PimpMySound

PimpMySound said:


> The new German buildt BRAX *Matrix* amps, for example, only have gain pots.


Here are the Brax Matrix amps:

Matrix X4, Titel Ihrer Hompage, Ihres Shops

Matrix X2, Titel Ihrer Hompage, Ihres Shops


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## WLDock

Speaking of gain control only purist design amps....

I would like to try this one but don't want to pay anywhere close to MSRP for it:










Pioneer USA - PRS-A900 - Reference-Quality 4-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier with Filter-less Design


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## cvjoint

WLDock said:


> Speaking of gain control only purist design amps....
> 
> I would like to try this one but don't want to pay anywhere close to MSRP for it:
> 
> Pioneer USA - PRS-A900 - Reference-Quality 4-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier with Filter-less Design


Dito, it looks nice. However, the difference between a solid amp like the Calrion and the extreme top end is most likely inaudible. However, some of these have lower power ratings, and are more inefficient that the DPX series for example. Imo once you get a good design, handpicking parts on the board will get you negligible benefits. Besides the high end class FD? they don't seem to care much about a small footprint either, which is very useful in a car. 

Basically to beat the 2 channel DPX, you would have to satisfy all of these categories:
1. 180x2 @4 ohm
2. Solid design
3. Efficient GH topology 
3. small footprint 

and then go for expensive tricks that are likely inaudible like hand picked capacitors, or redundancies like built in crossovers.


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## fertigaudio

I tend to agree with cvjoint. The pioneer PRS amps are incredible; they are even winning sq competitions... undoubtedly. However with the correct axis, speaker placement, processing, and money to back the installer from a huge corporation other amps would be in the list of components as well. For 1600 bucks I would be in the market for something handmade, i.e., Zed, TRU, etc.


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## WLDock

Yeah man, as much as I would love to run a trio of ARC SE amps it is just not in the cards. Good decent Zeff amps are available for cheap. The last system I put together cost about $2K TOTAL for everything....I really don't think I will ever pay that much just for amps....Unless my dreams come true.


As far as wanting to try the Pioneer....I like what that they have been doing over the last several...and that amps seems to have some good engineering built it.


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## Cudda_Kine

I'll be getting Two of the XH7110s. What will the Final "Load" be if I want to get the Incriminator Audio 21" Subwoofer. "It" says 2ohms (1ohm stable) for the AMP. So If I rail two of them to ONE 21" subwoofer. What will the Load be? Because The Incriminator Audio Subwoofers are always custom built to what ohms you want "it". Should I get the subwoofer 1 ohm (The two amps 2ohm+2ohm=1ohm). Or get the subwoofer 1/2ohm(The two amps 1ohm+1ohm=1/2ohm)? Please Let me know soon!!!


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## Cudda_Kine

AGH! I want this amp already. I have to wait 'til next friday (to get paid)


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## ryanrod

Awesome information, thank you all!


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## jbreddawg

Five pages of Robert Zeff love and not one mention of the incredibly clean ,straight through designed Monitor 1 Amps ? I love owning rare


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## PimpMySound

I am not sure, that Robert Zeff developed them.

They were manufactured in Italy, by the same company, that made the Steg amplifiers, for example.


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## jbreddawg

PimpMySound said:


> I am not sure, that Robert Zeff developed them.
> 
> They were manufactured in Italy, by the same company, that made the Steg amplifiers, for example.


I think your confusing them with something else. 









Here, Google this ( Arpa of America) and tell me what you come up with ?


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## jbeard

Thanks for doing this post about Zeff amps! I was first impressed with Zapco about 12 years ago at the IASCA world finals in Dallas, They were arc welding with a frequency Gen. and a Zapco amp, I was sold then and only had the privilege of installing a few OMG they made the best amp's! I am so happy to hear about Clarion amps being a Zeff design, I am buying some now!!! I love Clarion, their heads units have the best sound out of any head units I have ever heard, and now there amps being designed by Zeff, I am loving them more & more!! If any one gets a opportunity to do this, put a Cheap clarion head unit (radio, CD, it does not matter) against any Kenwood Excelon, It is unreal how much cleaner and natural sounding the clarion is! Kenwood used to be my Fav, not so much anymore.


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## cleansoundz

Good read and information.


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## PimpMySound

jbreddawg said:


> I think your confusing them with something else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, Google this ( Arpa of America) and tell me what you come up with ?


At that time, when these Amps were made, the rules for the use of "Made in USA" wasn't that strict as it is today. At that time, for example, ARC Audio amplifiers were also "made in USA", and later they were only "assembled in USA".

I assume, that ARPA of America (= ZAPCO) only assembled the amps, but the boards came from Italy.


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## cleansoundz

Don't let this thread die.


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## robert_wrath

Revival Bump


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## tyroneshoes

Additions:

Wetsound
Elf
Krypt
Vibe 

All use nikola/ubuy

But not all their models are nikola


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## Splitty

VIBE have worked with them for years and enjoyed nothing but great results, Micro amps and Some of our bigger lines:

VIBE Black Box Stereo2, Stereo4, Bass 4, Bass 5
VIBE Lite Box Stereo2, Stereo4, Bass 1
VIBE Space Box Stereo2, Stereo4, Bass 1, Deep Space Bass 1
VIBE Death Box Bass 1


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## El-Akeem

And the new amps for 2012, will you still have some with Nikola origin?


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## TamaDrumz76

Anybody know of any 5ch G/H design amps? Preferably that will not break the bank.

Not sure if they do 5 ch with those...

Oh, and Massive Audio's N, and NX series (I think even the D series) amps all look to be Nikoka designs... Don't know if that was mentioned before...

Massive makes 5ch amps in the NX series, doubt it's G/H though, think it's regular A/B.

Some interesting amps there though. I like the style design/size of the N and NX.


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## WLDock

TamaDrumz76 said:


> Anybody know of any 5ch G/H design amps? Preferably that will not break the bank.Not sure if they do 5 ch with those...


Class GH 5 channel? I can't think of any Zeff or non-Zeff class GH 5 channels. Amplifier topologies aside...I would try to pick up an Arc KS900.9 if I were looking for a nice Zeff multi-channel...one just sold in the for sale section for a decent price.


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## [email protected]

TamaDrumz76 said:


> Anybody know of any 5ch G/H design amps? Preferably that will not break the bank.
> 
> Not sure if they do 5 ch with those...
> 
> Oh, and Massive Audio's N, and NX series (I think even the D series) amps all look to be Nikoka designs... Don't know if that was mentioned before...
> 
> Massive makes 5ch amps in the NX series, doubt it's G/H though, think it's regular A/B.
> 
> Some interesting amps there though. I like the style design/size of the N and NX.


Genesis Profile 5 

[email protected]


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## El-Akeem

TamaDrumz76 said:


> Oh, and Massive Audio's N, and NX series (I think even the D series) amps all look to be Nikoka designs... Don't know if that was mentioned before...


For sure, they are not!

The Massive amps seem to come from: SOUNDMAGUS DSP car amplifier


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## robert_wrath

El-Akeem said:


> For sure, they are not!
> 
> The Massive amps seem to come from: SOUNDMAGUS DSP car amplifier


Curious, who else has SoundMagus subcontracted amps for which companies?


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## TamaDrumz76

El-Akeem said:


> For sure, they are not!
> 
> The Massive amps seem to come from: SOUNDMAGUS DSP car amplifier


Ah, yes I see. I was not aware of them, but some of their designs and components used look similar to Ubuy manufactured amplifiers.


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## El-Akeem

MTX came up with a line of small amplifiers recently: MTX Audio TD Series Amplifiers

;-)


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## WLDock

Those MTX amps are small sized class A/B and class D amps...how do they fit into this thread? You think they are Zeff/Nikola?  That would be odd for MTX?


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## robert_wrath

WLDock said:


> Those MTX amps are small sized class A/B and class D amps...how do they fit into this thread? You think they are Zeff/Nikola?  That would be odd for MTX?


It would probably be the smartest move MTX made in the last decade.:laugh:


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## El-Akeem

WLDock said:


> Those MTX amps are small sized class A/B and class D amps...how do they fit into this thread? You think they are Zeff/Nikola?  That would be odd for MTX?


was my reply on this question:


robert_wrath said:


> Curious, who else has SoundMagus subcontracted amps for which companies?


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## WLDock

Oh, SoundMagus...I see...


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## djkomplex

I have always been a fan of Zeff designed products. I actually just took out my ZAPCO AG750 and replaced it with a Arc Audio KS1200.1 which is a great clean sounding amp. I actually just put the zapco up for sale but keep going back n forth on if I should keep it as before I put it back in my car a little over a year ago, I sent it out to zapco to have a switch replaced and they checked over the amp to make sure everything was still up to spec. Anyway, I do believe Robert Zeff designs some amazing products and will stick with them.


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## cleansoundz

I love my KS 1000.1 and KS 300.4, best amps I have ever used.


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## xencloud

Any new for 2012 amps that are flying under the radar right now? I'm looking hard at those Clarion's....any updates? Thanks for any info guys, extremely informative!


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## robert_wrath

New Arc Audio Amp(s) are on the site.


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## alachua

robert_wrath said:


> New Arc Audio Amp(s) are on the site.


Any idea if the XDI series is Zeph designed or just the KAR? Also, the Arcs are hardly the 'deals' that the Clarions and Cerwin Vega amps were, which is a shame.


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## TamaDrumz76

Really wish there was another 6 ch besides the Arc KS900.6...


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## s4k4zulu

TamaDrumz76 said:


> Really wish there was another 6 ch besides the Arc KS900.6...


Why? U don't like the ks900.6?


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## TamaDrumz76

s4k4zulu said:


> Why? U don't like the ks900.6?


Heh, it's not that... I would just like another option. Finding a good price on those isn't easy either.


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## s4k4zulu

TamaDrumz76 said:


> Heh, it's not that... I would just like another option. Finding a good price on those isn't easy either.


I hear u. I'm running one now so it's not that bad. I just hate I don't have the ability to turn the crossover section off.


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## TamaDrumz76

s4k4zulu said:


> I hear u. I'm running one now so it's not that bad. I just hate I don't have the ability to turn the crossover section off.


Yeah, I hear that. I'm possibly in the market for a good 6 ch and I would prefer to be able to turn the Xover off as well since that's all done from my DEX-P99RS. I'll probably just hang onto my Clarions; I've got more than enough to do my upcoming setup, just would have preferred to cut down how many amps I have and reduce the footprint. At least the X-over can be shut off on those Clarions.


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## robert_wrath

Revival Bump.


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## mtuhuskyfan

Any updates to this list with current Zeff/Nikola/ubuy amps? The current Clarion XC and XR series do appear to be ubuy amps but lower end lines than their previous amps mentioned in this thread.


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## PimpMySound

The XC amps are, regaring to the UBUY site, Nikola designs. But the XR doesn't seem to be UBUY amps any more.


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## mtuhuskyfan

PimpMySound said:


> The XC amps are, regaring to the UBUY site, Nikola designs. But the XR doesn't seem to be UBUY amps any more.


They look like the Entry Level A/B amps from ubuy.


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## fastestsvx

http://www.rainbow-audio.de/en/amplifier/beat/

Rainbow Beat class GH amplifiers in 1, 2, & 4 channel versions. Supposedly assembled in Germany. Any way to find out if its a Zeff design?


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## waldojeffershead

Any budget zeff 1ohm stable 2-channel amps, capable of a 3ohm bridged load?

Or a mono, capeable of like [email protected], preferably with a subsonic filter?


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