# Building another home sub...suggestions?



## ItalynStylion

I like the current sub I have now but I'd like to change things up a bit. I'm running an Elemental Designs 13OV2 on an LT550 plate amp wired at 4 ohms. All of that is in a 2.6 cube box tuned to about 22hz. I would really like to change the enclosure because I want to try the kerfing technique that I've been reading about for a nice port. I'd like a little better sound quality out of it as well. It's loud now and sounds pretty good but at extreme volumes (during movie explosions) sometimes the amp will shut off. If I flip the switch off and then on it's fine immediately.

I'm thinking I can use the same amp to power just about anything that will wire to 4ohms. The things I think I should change are the sub and the enclosure. What do you guys suggest? I've been thinking, IDMAX, RL-P, Fi Q, AA Arsenal ect... I'd like to keep the enclosure under 3 cubes too so it's not gigantic.

Suggestions?


Pics of current setup......


----------



## Oliver

IDMAX


----------



## ItalynStylion

What would the enclosure specs need to be with the max? 2.6 ish and what tuning and port area? The only porting I've done is with precision ports. I mainly listen to music but when it's not doing music it's got movie duty.

Also, how do you tune a kerfed port since it's length isn't totally defined since it has a flare?


----------



## Spasticteapot

A fellow I know has done some measurements on the Infinity Kappa Perfects. In a suitably braced (and enormous) box, they should give tremendous bass.

TC Sounds and, as always, the Dayton Reference series also come highly recommended.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Spasticteapot said:


> A fellow I know has done some measurements on the Infinity Kappa Perfects. In a suitably braced (and enormous) box, they should give tremendous bass.
> 
> TC Sounds and, as always, the Dayton Reference series also come highly recommended.


Well an enormous box is out of the question. Nothing really over 3 cubes ideally.


----------



## DS-21

If you want a small ported sub an, XLS12 perhaps?

If you can go up a cube, perhaps the new Maelstrom-X? I'm not crazy recommending a product I've not personally tried, though. So give me maybe three weeks for my preordered one to get here and for me to get some measurements and impressions of it before taking my word for it.


----------



## ItalynStylion

I'd like to stay with a 12" driver so no face of the box needs to be too much wider than that. I really like the style of my current sub with the driver on top facing the listener and the port on the bottom.


----------



## ItalynStylion

^Interesting idea but again.....this will be a ported single 12" sub that will get 550RMS so no can do.


----------



## Spasticteapot

ItalynStylion said:


> Well an enormous box is out of the question. Nothing really over 3 cubes ideally.



By "massive", I mean heavy. 

Pouring a layer of concrete inside the box would help.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Spasticteapot said:


> By "massive", I mean heavy.
> 
> Pouring a layer of concrete inside the box would help.


I will likely do a layer of resin inside the box but I think it's safe to say that concrete is out of the question just because I know I'll be moving after college.


----------



## ErinH

I still like the idea of an IB install, but that's out of the question here...

If I were starting from scratch, I'd go with an IDmax for sure.


----------



## ItalynStylion

bikinpunk said:


> I still like the idea of an IB install, but that's out of the question here...
> 
> If I were starting from scratch, I'd go with an IDmax for sure.


Secretly I'm wanting to do the IDMX too. I mean hey, if all else fails it will go in the car and then I can go IB 

What should my tuning specs be for a hybrid HT/Home audio sub?


----------



## ItalynStylion

I just found a local Image Dynamics dealer that will order me an IDMAX 12 for $315....Ladies and Gents; we have a winner!


----------



## DS-21

ItalynStylion said:


> I just found a local Image Dynamics dealer that will order me an IDMAX 12 for $315....Ladies and Gents; we have a winner!


That's a rather outlandish price for a rather mediocre woofer.

You can do much better for fractions.


----------



## 60ndown

DS-21 said:


> That's a rather outlandish price for a rather mediocre woofer.
> 
> You can do much better for fractions.


very 'mature' of you to say so, 

how bout you post links to these 'better and cheaper' drivers?


----------



## ErinH

DS-21 said:


> That's a rather outlandish price for a rather mediocre woofer.
> 
> You can do much better for fractions.


like? 

I assume it's a v3? If so, $315 is a very good price. That's better than any online price.


----------



## ErinH

I got stuck in the car driver thought.

You guys are right. As much as I like the idea of using an IDmax, for home use, you'd probably be better off with other woofers based on cost/performance ratio.


----------



## chad

Try to find a JBL 2245 basket for dirt cheep, and have it reconed, it will PWN an IDmax.

I did that with an Electrovoice EVX180, again, PWNage


----------



## 60ndown

a 12 vrs and 18, is that a fair comparison?

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-2245H-2245-...ryZ47092QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

max and w7 are undisputed mooffa pwnrz.

h8trz !


----------



## chad

60ndown said:


> a 12 vrs and 18, is that a fair comparison?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-2245H-2245-...ryZ47092QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> max and w7 are undisputed mooffa pwnrz.
> 
> h8trz !


When you watch a movie in a theater, chances are very high that you are hearing these subs  They want a big box, tuned low.


----------



## Oliver

Maybe send an email to: Orange County Speakers

Get rid of the middle man.


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> When you watch a movie in a theater, chances are very high that you are hearing these subs  They want a big box, tuned low.


you didnt answer the question,

do you believe its fair to compare a 12 to an 18?

i dont.


----------



## ItalynStylion

60ndown said:


> you didnt answer the question,
> 
> do you believe its fair to compare a 12 to an 18?
> 
> i dont.


I don't think so either...


----------



## 60ndown

ItalynStylion said:


> I don't think so either...


see 'adrianne', 

rocky thinks your wrong too.


----------



## DS-21

60ndown said:


> very 'mature' of you to say so,
> 
> how bout you post links to these 'better and cheaper' drivers?


Oh, my where to start.

Here's a very incomplete list:
Peerless XLS12/XXLS12
Peerless SLS12
Dayton Reference 12
JBL W12GTi
Used TC Sounds TC2+/TC1k/TC2k
Used Audiomobile Mass 
Dayton Titanic 12
Used NHT 1259

And ones I've not used but by all indications should be much better than anything Image Dynamics could conceive of:
DIYcable.com Exodus Shiva-X
CSS SDX12 
Soundcraft/Aura SCC12NRT 
Used Aura NS12

And probably sixty or seventy more...

That said, I wouldn't use a 12" woofer at home. There's just no reason, unless you live in a tiny little matchbox.

How hard do you really think it is to find a better woofer than some blingy, no-Faraday ring heap that costs a lot of money?


----------



## ItalynStylion

I think I might try the IDMAX even though there could be slightly better options for the money. The reason being is that I plan to use an IDMAX in my next car that I will be buying by the end of the year. So if I like it it will stay in the HT sub...if not it will make it's way into my car.


----------



## chad

60ndown said:


> you didnt answer the question,
> 
> do you believe its fair to compare a 12 to an 18?
> 
> i dont.





ItalynStylion said:


> I don't think so either...


I don't recall this being a thread of output /vs/ size comparison, but rather getting the OP a great sunding sub


----------



## 60ndown

chad said:


> I don't recall this being a thread of output /vs/ size comparison, but rather getting the OP a great sunding sub


so your saying the max isn't a great sounding sub?

'kate'


----------



## ca90ss

60ndown said:


> so your saying the max isn't a great sounding sub?
> 
> 'kate'


I'll say it. The Idmax is an overpriced over hyped hunk of ****.


----------



## 60ndown

DS-21 said:


> Oh, my where to start.
> 
> Here's a very incomplete list:
> Peerless XLS12/XXLS12
> Peerless SLS12
> Dayton Reference 12
> JBL W12GTi
> Used TC Sounds TC2+/TC1k/TC2k
> Used Audiomobile Mass
> Dayton Titanic 12
> Used NHT 1259
> 
> And ones I've not used but by all indications should be much better than anything Image Dynamics could conceive of:
> DIYcable.com Exodus 12
> CSS SDX12
> Soundcraft/Aura SCC12NRT
> Used Aura NS12
> 
> And probably sixty or seventy more...
> 
> That said, I wouldn't use a 12" woofer at home. There's just no reason, unless you live in a tiny little matchbox.
> 
> How hard do you really think it is to find a better woofer than some blingy, no-Faraday ring heap that costs a lot of money?




theres only a couple subwoofers talked about regularly on car audio forums over the years that get 'the nod' from everyone.

max and w7 are undisputed. sure theres haterz, but if you want spl and sq max and w7 are hard to beat.

id bet the max would outperform 80% of the subs you listed.

and the w7 99%


----------



## ca90ss

60ndown said:


> id bet the max would outperform 80% of the subs you listed.
> 
> and the w7 99%


Don't get me started on how much the W7 sucked.

Just because you haven't heard anything better doesn't mean there aren't better subs out there.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I wouldnt consider the dub7 an SQ sub by any means, They get loud sure. But if there was a sub that can do both(sq & SPL) Im leaning on my Mag(and hopefully the new mag too) .

conservatively speaking the ID Max and the mag should be comparable watt per watt. Only big dif is the mag can soak more power to be an idiot proof sub :shrugs:



ca90ss said:


> Just because you haven't heard anything better doesn't mean there aren't better subs out there.



I agree


----------



## Neil

I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly do not think some of you guys have the knowledge or experience to judge and compare drivers fairly or correctly.

For example, if we deem "SQ" to be the most accurate reproduction of an input signal, then the W7 is in fact a great SQ subwoofer. There are a lot of people who have no idea how to use one, though.

There is nothing exceptional about the IDMax, although it is a decent implementation of the overhung geometry with no added frills in the performance arena.

So....coming off my pedestal....I mostly agree with DS-10's list. The exception is the SLS 12", which I don't feel compares with the IDMax, and the Sonicraft drivers that use NRT are fine but not exceptional (particularly if you wish to displace a lot of air at frequencies lower than 30 Hz). I also trust the upcoming SI Mag.

Those in the "know" routinely recommend the 2245H (and its siblings) for a very good reason.


----------



## 60ndown

ca90ss said:


> Don't get me started on how much the W7 sucked.


in your install maybe



ca90ss said:


> Just because you haven't heard anything better doesn't mean there aren't better subs out there.


your ass-ume-ing i havent sat in, and demoed multiple world class vehicles
over the last 15 years.


----------



## ca90ss

60ndown said:


> in your install maybe


In my car, in my house and every other install I've ever heard them in.



> your ass-ume-ing i havent sat in, and demoed multiple world class vehicles
> over the last 15 years.



With those credentials how could I possibly argue with that


----------



## 60ndown

DevilDriver said:


> For example, if we deem "SQ" to be the most accurate reproduction of an input signal, then the W7 is in fact a great SQ subwoofer. There are a lot of people who have no idea how to use one, though.
> 
> .





ca90ss said:


> In my car, in my house and every other install I've ever heard them in.


lmfao


----------



## ca90ss

60ndown said:


> lmfao


Great argument

You have no idea how and under what circumstances I test and compare drivers.


----------



## DS-21

60ndown said:


> max and w7 are undisputed. sure theres haterz, but if you want spl and sq max and w7 are hard to beat.


If you're going by car-fi forum boners, you are indeed correct. However, neither one is an especially good driver. The IDMAX is just a bling-fest, looking like every fifteen year-old boy's idea of a badass subwoofer. As for the W7...I always wondered why the W7 consistently sounded bad, no matter what the models say. Then I learned about its inductance. It's about as high per ohm as another "how could something that models this well possibly suck so much" driver, TC Sounds' old 3HP and 4HP based drivers.



DevilDriver said:


> So....coming off my pedestal....I mostly agree with DS-10's list. The exception is the SLS 12", which I don't feel compares with the IDMax,


It won't get as loud, and yes the basket is stamped rather than cast (albeit the nicest stamped basket I've seen, with great ventilation above and below the spider), but the motor design is quite good, and up to its limits I cannot imagine an ID-whatever sounding better.



DevilDriver said:


> I also trust the upcoming SI Mag.


SI put a bad taste in my mouth when they hawked that awful Zalytron "line array" with the four widely-spaced tweeters and claimed that it sounded good. Made me think they were just another company that didn't know what they were talking about. However, their new ones seem to have XBL^2 motors, which hopefully means a fair amount of design guidance by certain people who do know what they're doing, copper in the motor, a nice, low inductance - albeit not quite as low as the Maelstrom-X I should be seeing in a little bit  - and a pretty striking industrial design. So they have promise, certainly.



DevilDriver said:


> Those in the "know" routinely recommend the 2245H (and its siblings) for a very good reason.


Yep. It's amazing how little progress has really been made in terms of hi-fidelity bass since the 2225/2235/2245. Every so often I've been tempted to commission new enclosures for my old 2235H's. JBL themselves I think did a good job finally topping their old stuff with the DDD-based WGTi drivers, though.


----------



## chad

60ndown said:


> so your saying the max isn't a great sounding sub?
> 
> 'kate'


No Shawanda, I'm saying the 2245 would be bettar


----------



## Neil

DS-21 said:


> If you're going by car-fi forum boners, you are indeed correct. However, neither one is an especially good driver. The IDMAX is just a bling-fest, looking like every fifteen year-old boy's idea of a badass subwoofer. As for the W7...I always wondered why the W7 consistently sounded bad, no matter what the models say. Then I learned about its inductance. It's about as high per ohm as another "how could something that models this well possibly suck so much" driver, TC Sounds' old 3HP and 4HP based drivers.


Well, whether people like a driver or not has nothing to do with how accurate it is, which is all I've ever cared about. Truthfully, I can tell you that the big problem most people encounter with a W7 is that they don't EQ the bottom end down (a necessity for many drivers).

Do you by chance have the measured inductance for the W7? I've emailed JL Audio, but I'd be interested to see what you have measured yourself or what you've seen others measure elsewhere.




DS-21 said:


> It won't get as loud, and yes the basket is stamped rather than cast (albeit the nicest stamped basket I've seen, with great ventilation above and below the spider), but the motor design is quite good, and up to its limits I cannot imagine an ID-whatever sounding better.


If there's one thing we can certainly agree on, it is that Peerless is very capable of engineering great drivers and the limitation on the SLS is its intended application.




DS-21 said:


> SI put a bad taste in my mouth when they hawked that awful Zalytron "line array" with the four widely-spaced tweeters and claimed that it sounded good. Made me think they were just another company that didn't know what they were talking about. However, their new ones seem to have XBL^2 motors, which hopefully means a fair amount of design guidance by certain people who do know what they're doing, copper in the motor, a nice, low inductance - albeit not quite as low as the Maelstrom-X I should be seeing in a little bit  - and a pretty striking industrial design. So they have promise, certainly.


I didn't care for either of the previous two generations of Mags. Not that they were bad, by any means, but I didn't find them to be exceptional in the areas I expect a subwoofer to be exceptional. I can tell you for a fact that Nick has gained quite a bit of knowledge and am fairly certain that much of it has been passed on by someone who would know quite a bit, particularly with respect to such designs as the new Mag. I should have clarified earlier....I trust the engineering in the new Mag. Plus, it is pretty much all I could want in a subwoofer.



DS-21 said:


> Yep. It's amazing how little progress has really been made in terms of hi-fidelity bass since the 2225/2235/2245. Every so often I've been tempted to commission new enclosures for my old 2235H's. JBL themselves I think did a good job finally topping their old stuff with the DDD-based WGTi drivers, though.


People have a tendency to forget what JBL has accomplished because they're "known". They still have some of the absolute best bass drivers once you get outside of the entry-level stuff.

And I hear there are some more good things to come.


----------



## DS-21

DevilDriver said:


> Do you by chance have the measured inductance for the W7? I've emailed JL Audio, but I'd be interested to see what you have measured yourself or what you've seen others measure elsewhere.


I don't remember the exact number, but it was over 8mH for the dual 1.5 wired in series if memory serves. IOW, an even worse Le/Re ratio than the old TC 4HP! And even suitably EQ'ed, it sounds like it. Unfortunately.



DevilDriver said:


> If there's one thing we can certainly agree on, it is that Peerless is very capable of engineering great drivers and the limitation on the SLS is its intended application.


Also, they had to make sure their cheap-n-cheerful $75 driver didn't perform as well as their pretty $200 driver! 

But I have to say, I'm _really_ impressed with the SLS12. Not just for the money, but on an absolute scale. One or two of those in an I-B install is probably the ultimate cheap high-quality automotive bass solution right now.



DevilDriver said:


> I should have clarified earlier....I trust the engineering in the new Mag. Plus, it is pretty much all I could want in a subwoofer.


It does look like an interesting little driver, except for my one pet peeve that's endemic to the car audio world: gaudy branding on the cone. I hate logos on anything, unless someone's paying me for the privilege.

I did some more digging on them. The new Mag is more expensive than likely similar-performing drivers from Exodus/diycable.com and CSS, but not inordinately so considering that the basket looks like a bespoke part. (If not, considering how sweet it looks I expect 50 subs released in 2009 to be using it...) By contrast, both the Shiva-X and SD12 use stock parts. Also, I wonder if the SI's basket won't help power compression by providing extra thermal mass, a la the JBL WGTi series.

And looking at their product lineup generally, their second driver (the BM, with the same basket as the TC OEM specials but no magnet hanging off of it) actually looks more interesting to me for mobile use, because of the extra placement possibilities of a slimmer driver. (Neither one looks that interesting to me for home use, because I prefer larger cones when possible.) Lower xmax I'm sure (couldn't find numbers at a skim) but for mobile use that does not strike me as a huge concern.



DevilDriver said:


> People have a tendency to forget what JBL has accomplished because they're "known". They still have some of the absolute best bass drivers once you get outside of the entry-level stuff.


Very true, though also I think most people's experience with JBL is through some of their rather indifferent mass-market stuff, such as their computer speakers. But people do forget things like the fact that ScanSpeak's motor designs are largely based off of JBL's work commenced due to the previous Congolese civil war.



DevilDriver said:


> And I hear there are some more good things to come.


At this point, I honestly hope those good things to come don't include an 18"+ driver with the Differential Drive motor. I just bought a new 18" driver! Now, a full-range compact 4-6 ch. amp with Hi-Q Net DSP software control, that would be quite a lot of fun....


----------



## Neil

Alright....returning to this thread.

Earlier, I proposed that the reason many were unsatisfied with the W7 is that they did not EQ the bottom end down. Many people have cited the W7's inductance as a problem, but I internally debated that. Here's why: many moons ago, a good engineering friend and I discussed the W7 at length from top to bottom. One of the key points of our discussion was that, being an overhung driver with more stroke than was typical at the time, the W7 naturally has a long(er) voice coil than was typical. From this, we make the obvious extrapolation that the inductance of the coil is likely higher as well.

But wait....I had it on good authority that the W7's coil was a bit different. Yes, it is a bit long (although we've seen much longer coils since then), but it happens to have less winding layers than most other long stroke drivers. Now you'll have to forgive my memory, but I'm quite sure that it was a 2 layer coil, whereas we typically see 4 or 8 layer coils. Even in the event that it is a 4 layer coil, we have certainly seen longer coils with more windings whose inductance wasn't quite as detrimental as we seem to make it sound for the W7. Regardless, less layers for a given height will usually mean lower inductance and lower power handling.

Something else we should consider: the W7's all use coils with different lengths and diameters, so which ones are the objectionable ones with an inductance value that is "too high"?

Anyways, I had more or less forgotten this argument for many moons, until DS-21 kindly brought it up again. So off goes an email to JL Audio Tech and, to my pleasant surprise, I received a response today.



JL Audio Tech Support said:


> Hello Neil,
> 
> We don't have an inductance measurement for the 8W7 currently as we don't
> actually use inductance in any calculations here, we just haven't measured
> the 8W7. Following, you'll find the simple Le for the others below.
> 
> 10W7 * Le = 1.481 mH
> 12W7 * Le = 1.407 mH
> 13W7 Le = 1.839 mH


From there...

10W7 Le/Ohm = 0.539 mH/Ohm
12W7 Le/Ohm = 0.570 mH/Ohm
13W7 Le/Ohm = 0.763 mH/Ohm

These are certainly not "high" inductance values. So again...I propose that the dissatisfaction with the W7 is largely a result of a long throw driver that is more efficient at low frequencies than is typical, paired with a vehicle transfer function that tends to make many drivers bloated....in fact, this is largely where the "ported is sloppier" myth comes from. And I can tell you from personal experience that I have satisfied some W7 users before simply by cutting a bit anywhere from 20 Hz - 40 Hz.

However, I am completely open to any other hypothesis (or alternative measurements) that will provide a concrete answer.

edit: Also, I think we need to invest more time into determining that more than a very small minority of people actually dislike the sound of a W7. At least some sort of "frame of reference" would be good.


----------



## Neil

DS-21 said:


> It does look like an interesting little driver, except for my one pet peeve that's endemic to the car audio world: gaudy branding on the cone. I hate logos on anything, unless someone's paying me for the privilege.


Ditto. I complained about the logo on the gasket thing once already on their forum.



DS-21 said:


> I did some more digging on them. The new Mag is more expensive than likely similar-performing drivers from Exodus/diycable.com and CSS, but not inordinately so considering that the basket looks like a bespoke part. (If not, considering how sweet it looks I expect 50 subs released in 2009 to be using it...) By contrast, both the Shiva-X and SD12 use stock parts. Also, I wonder if the SI's basket won't help power compression by providing extra thermal mass, a la the JBL WGTi series.


Nah, that's not a custom basket at all. It's been used on some Lanzar drivers (and a few others) in the past. The prices I heard a long time ago would make it competitive with the Shiva-X (and arguably better performance for the dollar than the SD12), but it is completely possible that the price has changed a bit.

In general, passive cooling (ie. absorbing heat with surrounding thermal mass, like a basket, shorting ring, etc) does not make near as much of a difference as active cooling does. However, if they can balance the air passing over the coil with passing heat into the basket, it should be a good solution. I need to look at the space around the motor and the spider landing a bit closer....


----------



## Oliver

DevilDriver said:


> Alright....returning to this thread.
> 
> Earlier, I proposed that the reason many were unsatisfied with the W7 is that they did not EQ the bottom end down. Many people have cited the W7's inductance as a problem, but I internally debated that. Here's why: many moons ago, a good engineering friend and I discussed the W7 at length from top to bottom. One of the key points of our discussion was that, being an overhung driver with more stroke than was typical at the time, the W7 naturally has a long(er) voice coil than was typical. From this, we make the obvious extrapolation that the inductance of the coil is likely higher as well.
> 
> But wait....I had it on good authority that the W7's coil was a bit different. Yes, it is a bit long (although we've seen much longer coils since then), but it happens to have less winding layers than most other long stroke drivers. Now you'll have to forgive my memory, but I'm quite sure that it was a 2 layer coil, whereas we typically see 4 or 8 layer coils. Even in the event that it is a 4 layer coil, we have certainly seen longer coils with more windings whose inductance wasn't quite as detrimental as we seem to make it sound for the W7. Regardless, less layers for a given height will usually mean lower inductance and lower power handling.
> 
> Something else we should consider: the W7's all use coils with different lengths and diameters, so which ones are the objectionable ones with an inductance value that is "too high"?
> 
> Anyways, I had more or less forgotten this argument for many moons, until DS-21 kindly brought it up again. So off goes an email to JL Audio Tech and, to my pleasant surprise, I received a response today.
> 
> 
> 
> From there...
> 
> 10W7 Le/Ohm = 0.539 mH/Ohm
> 12W7 Le/Ohm = 0.570 mH/Ohm
> 13W7 Le/Ohm = 0.763 mH/Ohm
> 
> These are certainly not "high" inductance values. So again...I propose that the dissatisfaction with the W7 is largely a result of a long throw driver that is more efficient at low frequencies than is typical, paired with a vehicle transfer function that tends to make many drivers bloated....in fact, this is largely where the "ported is sloppier" myth comes from. And I can tell you from personal experience that I have satisfied some W7 users before simply by cutting a bit anywhere from 20 Hz - 40 Hz.
> 
> However, I am completely open to any other hypothesis (or alternative measurements) that will provide a concrete answer.
> 
> edit: Also, I think we need to invest more time into determining that more than a very small minority of people actually dislike the sound of a W7. At least some sort of "frame of reference" would be good.


Settings are definately key in this 
And poorly designed ported enclosures [aka "Boom Boxes" ].


----------



## chad

JL specs a smaller vented box than I would for the enclosure.... Manville?


----------



## DS-21

DevilDriver said:


> Nah, that's not a custom basket at all. It's been used on some Lanzar drivers (and a few others) in the past. The prices I heard a long time ago would make it competitive with the Shiva-X (and arguably better performance for the dollar than the SD12), but it is completely possible that the price has changed a bit.


Interesting. As for price, the number I saw was $250 vs. ~$200 shipped for the Shiva-X. And I had no idea about the basket. Regardless, it looks cool.



DevilDriver said:


> In general, passive cooling (ie. absorbing heat with surrounding thermal mass, like a basket, shorting ring, etc) does not make near as much of a difference as active cooling does. However, if they can balance the air passing over the coil with passing heat into the basket, it should be a good solution. I need to look at the space around the motor and the spider landing a bit closer....


My hunch is that one of the reasons the JBL W15GTi is such a standout performer despite the fairly mediocre BL-x curves our gracious host measured and published here is that the split coils and heat-sinking make it less subject to power compression than like-sized drivers. Admittedly, said hunch is unsubstantiated by anything except the audible/measured performance and the massive amount of heat-sinking employed not just on it but on its Vertec pro sibling. Any thoughts?



DevilDriver said:


> Something else we should consider: the W7's all use coils with different lengths and diameters, so which ones are the objectionable ones with an inductance value that is "too high"?


FWIW, the ones I've heard are the 13W7 (DIY home and car-fi use) and the 12" and 13" home subs. In one instance, I brought over my SMS-1 to try and fix the sound beyond what ARO could do. I haven't heard the smaller ones, or any of them in the recommended car boxes. (I've been arguing with Manville that JL's recommendations are undersized since probably 1997 or thereabouts, though.)



DevilDriver said:


> 13W7 Le/Ohm = 0.763 mH/Ohm


Hmm. That's not even close to what I recall measuring. On its face, that's a figure perfectly within reason for a good-sounding sub. Especially if the BL is as admirably linear over its travel as the W7's is. I suppose it's possible they've improved the drivers since I first experienced them. In which case, great for them and I should probably take the chance to reëvaluate when the opportunity strikes. (No need for one personally. I think I'm done buying subwoofers more or less forever.)

As I hope everyone knows, I have absolutely no animus towards JL Audio whatsoever. They're one of the good guys. I've used their stuff in the past, use some of it currently, and would certainly consider it in the future if they had something that fit my needs. Hey Manville, how about you guys buy Earl Geddes' waveguide patents and release speakers for the home market or studio based on them? You don't really want me using British speakers at home when I could be running your stuff, do you? I just never found myself particularly fond of this one driver, and I'm enough of a loudmouth to say it. 



DevilDriver said:


> So again...I propose that the dissatisfaction with the W7 is largely a result of a long throw driver that is more efficient at low frequencies than is typical, paired with a vehicle transfer function that tends to make many drivers bloated....in fact, this is largely where the "ported is sloppier" myth comes from. And I can tell you from personal experience that I have satisfied some W7 users before simply by cutting a bit anywhere from 20 Hz - 40 Hz.


Were it not for personal experience that doesn't fit the model, I'd find your argument compelling.



DevilDriver said:


> edit: Also, I think we need to invest more time into determining that more than a very small minority of people actually dislike the sound of a W7. At least some sort of "frame of reference" would be good.


I doubt there are more than a very small number of us, honestly. As for me, my frame of reference has probably been discussed ad nauseam.


----------



## ErinH

DS, where do you live?


----------



## ItalynStylion

I decided on the IDMax in the end. I had heard one before and really liked it so I took the plunge and got it. I should have it by the end of the week. Like I said before, it might make it's way into my next car in an IB setup 

So now I've got the driver selected. Things I need now are the amp and a decent enclosure design. I think I'll go with the amp that DS-21 recommended in another thread (thanks man). I'll have 500RMS to play with and it should be more than enough in a ported setup. I might even try a sealed setup temporarily just to see how it sounds and to break in the woofer. 

I'm thinking about doing a kerfed/slot port box for this. I enjoyed the forward firing sub and port combo that I have in my current setup so I will likely do something similar. What type of enclosure stuff have you guys seen that sounded great and also made you smile just looking at it?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Hmmm, 93.8L works out to about 3.31 cubic feet. That's not too terrible on space. 

One thing I've looked at for a long time was some enclosures that I've seen made out of sonotube. I was tossing around a few ideas of using some 12" diameter PVC pipe that could work very well. One about 4 feet tall with a port running straight down the middle would meet space requirements. I've never had the chance to hear anything like that though. Have any of you?


----------



## Oliver

Here are some guys discussing this type of design


http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-sealed-ported/3301-sonotube-vs-box.html


----------



## ItalynStylion

From what I gathered in that thread; a sonotube enclosure is just less work. 

I think I'd rather just do the work and build a good box. I've got the tools and the experience building so it's not a problem.


----------



## ItalynStylion

I'm not too familiar with T-lines but I've heard them discussed. What exactly is a T-line and what is the benefit?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Oh man....I don't have 14feet to play with for 20hz!


----------



## 60ndown

ItalynStylion said:


> Oh man....I don't have 14feet to play with for 20hz!


but you 'can' use 7 feet twice.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Other than the transmission line length are there any other things that need to be taken into account? Like how big does the "tube" have to be and is the opening always the same size? Does all this vary on the woofer size or type?


----------



## ItalynStylion

I was looking into the T-line enclosures but I don't think I'll be going that route. I think a normal ported box tuned to 20 will work just fine and it wont be an eyesore. The amp should be in sometime this week I hope. 

When the amp arrives I was planning on hooking it up and leaving it playing a test tone to break in. What tone should I use and should I use more than one? How long should I let it play? When doing this would it be better to have the sub in an enclosure or free air?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Oh yeah I forgot to add......sub is here


----------



## Oliver

ItalynStylion said:


> I was looking into the T-line enclosures but I don't think I'll be going that route. I think a normal ported box tuned to 20 will work just fine and it wont be an eyesore. The amp should be in sometime this week I hope.
> 
> When the amp arrives I was planning on hooking it up and leaving it playing a test tone to break in. What tone should I use and should I use more than one? How long should I let it play? When doing this would it be better to have the sub in an enclosure or free air?


Music or tones , whichever you have.

If you're not afraid of damaging it just leave it unenclosed [watch for bottoming it out ].

Keep the power low and let it move throughout it's range. [ little music with some low end in it ].


----------



## ItalynStylion

a$$hole said:


> Music or tones , whichever you have.
> 
> If you're not afraid of damaging it just leave it unenclosed [watch for bottoming it out ].
> 
> Keep the power low and let it move throughout it's range. [ little music with some low end in it ].


I think I'll try both. I've got it in my car at the moment in a quick sealed box I threw together in an hour last night. I've got it running off the Nine.5 sub channel at 4 ohms so it's a little over 250RMS. I could have wired it to 1 ohm but I figured I'd let it break in with low power first.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Holy 1 day shipping batman! The amp shipped out Monday afternoon and it was there when I got home yesterday!

One thing I didn't realize was that the plate amp doesn't have an LFE like I had thought. Can I just get an RCA splitter and run it in reverse so it splits my LFE output from the receiver and use both the L and R line in?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Autiophile said:


> A lot of times plate amps will state in the manual that if you are using a mono input, you can just use one of the channels. I believe one of my jbls has the left input labeled "left/mono". Splitting it would work as well, though I'm not sure what you would gain vs. just plugging it into one channel.


That's true. It should technically be the same since the full signal will get played either way. 


As far as enclosure designs; I think I'm going to go with a tall tube style enclosure. I've got 12" diameter pipe that I'm going to use for the enclosure with a port running down the middle and exiting the top. This will save some space in my apartment. Now all I have to figure out is what I'll do with the plate amp since I wont have a flat surface to mount to. Time to get creative.....


----------



## ItalynStylion

I talked to one of the ID techs last night about some enclosure specs. He said that I should be around 3 cubes before sub and port displacement. That sets the pipe to be right at 48 inches tall. He agreed that a 4" port would be my best bet so I've got another precision port on it's way. Tuning will be 24hz setting the port length at 17.5 inches. I plan to make the enclosure, meaning the large pipe and sub, be one single piece that would fit into a base that stands it up. Much like a Christmas tree fits into a base. That way if I ever have to move it it (which is inevitable) I won't break it.

Here is the MS paint sketch of my Idea that I mentioned above. I think I'm going to mount the plate amp in it's own little amp cube separately and just run speaker wire to the sub.


----------



## Megalomaniac

ItalynStylion said:


> I talked to one of the ID techs last night about some enclosure specs. He said that I should be around 3 cubes before sub and port displacement. That sets the pipe to be right at 48 inches tall. He agreed that a 4" port would be my best bet so I've got another precision port on it's way. Tuning will be 24hz setting the port length at 17.5 inches. I plan to make the enclosure, meaning the large pipe and sub, be one single piece that would fit into a base that stands it up. Much like a Christmas tree fits into a base. That way if I ever have to move it it (which is inevitable) I won't break it.
> 
> Here is the MS paint sketch of my Idea that I mentioned above. I think I'm going to mount the plate amp in it's own little amp cube separately and just run speaker wire to the sub.




No sketchup pics :/


----------



## Megalomaniac

Here you go mate! Hope its how you wanted it.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Hell yeah, thanks Mir!

It's going to be roughly like that in terms of design principals. The base is going to be circular though and a little thicker. Even though the sub is very heavy and will be at the bottom, the pipe is very heavy too and I want to make sure it is stabilized and secure. I've going to be using a bunch of circular cut outs sandwiched together to make the base. I've started on it already and I'll post some progress pics tomorrow. I'll have all day to work on it 

PS: This build will be made totally out of cylinders. There will not be any rectangles or corners on the whole thing......take a minute to think that over


----------



## Megalomaniac

ItalynStylion said:


> Hell yeah, thanks Mir!
> 
> It's going to be roughly like that in terms of design principals. The base is going to be circular though and a little thicker. Even though the sub is very heavy and will be at the bottom, the pipe is very heavy too and I want to make sure it is stabilized and secure. I've going to be using a bunch of circular cut outs sandwiched together to make the base. I've started on it already and I'll post some progress pics tomorrow. I'll have all day to work on it
> 
> PS: This build will be made totally out of cylinders. There will not be any rectangles or corners on the whole thing......take a minute to think that over


are you working on this at your moms house? or yours.

tomorrow I got work on some new RCA cables. These Knu ones are driving me nuts.


----------



## Tommythecat

ItalynStylion said:


> PS: This build will be made totally out of cylinders. There will not be any rectangles or corners on the whole thing......take a minute to think that over


Woah...so like, because waves are like - not square - you're not making anything with corners? You just blew my mind dude, bro.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Tommythecat said:


> Woah...so like, because waves are like - not square - you're not making anything with corners? You just blew my mind dude, bro.


Actually i was thinking more like it's just fun that the whole thing can be made without a table saw. The only tools used will pretty much be a router and a sander and a drill.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> are you working on this at your moms house? or yours.
> 
> tomorrow I got work on some new RCA cables. These Knu ones are driving me nuts.


Yeah I'll be doing some work on it at moms place. I gotta run to fry's to see if they have binding posts sometime today.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I am interested on how you are going to join the baffle to the PVC pipe.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> I am interested on how you are going to join the baffle to the PVC pipe.


I'll be doing it today. Let's just say it's going to be a VERY tight fit. It will be aided by PL construction adhesive too. If you want to come over later gimme a call. I'm likely to need an extra pair of hands. That PVC is like 50lbs


----------



## Megalomaniac

ItalynStylion said:


> I'll be doing it today. Let's just say it's going to be a VERY tight fit. It will be aided by PL construction adhesive too. If you want to come over later gimme a call. I'm likely to need an extra pair of hands. That PVC is like 50lbs


I am about to hit the shower, I just woke up. Im "freshening" up. :/ I will call you, id like to be a part of this project...


is the max with you?  we could drop it in my floor @1 ohm (we may have to invert it though.)


----------



## ItalynStylion

Yeah, I've got th max on my counter in the laundry room. Call me when you've finished primping.


----------



## Megalomaniac

I just got back from Stevens, I am uploading pics. We got quite a bit accomplished today IMO


----------



## ItalynStylion

Hell yeah we did! Oh and Mir, I was able to use those vertical screws to secure the baffle even more to the pipe. It's like a rock; it would hold 5 IDMAX's if it needed to


----------



## Megalomaniac

cool!



OK when i got to Steven's this is what I saw:

















I brought some resin over; we went at it!









we felt it was appropriate to finish resining outside









* Dont ever pour laquor thinner into a DIXIE CUP!

















Also this TX heat was dam hot, we accidentally made a hot batch...Real Hot


Started using kitty hair:

















Then onto the body filler:









we tried to get it even as possible:


----------



## Megalomaniac

Whats an ID Max (steven in pic)


----------



## Megalomaniac

I did get a start on my RCAs lol


----------



## ItalynStylion

Greatest quote of the day...
(I had run the sub for about 3 hours last week)
Mir-Does the Max have a pole vent?
Me-I don't think so. It does have that sticker on the back though so if it does have a pole vent I didn't see it underneath it.
Mir-I think it made it's own hole....in the sticker


----------



## ItalynStylion

I have a long night of sanding waiting for me when I get home from work tomorrow.


----------



## Megalomaniac

btw everyone, Ant is a badass cat! He sent me 4 knifes at his expense to show his gratitude!










I gave one to Steven, since he needed a new knife...no more huskys!


----------



## ItalynStylion

Yesterday I told Mir that I wanted to flush mount a circular mirror in the base directly under the sub. I wanted to do this because the sub is down firing and this would allow the sub face to be seen even. Not really anything important but I thought it would be a nice touch.

Anyways, Mir voiced a concern about the possible sound reflection off the mirror because it was a flat perpendicular surface underneath the sub face. What do you guys think; is it a bad idea? That also got me thinking that even if I don't use the mirror and the surface is just painted MDF it will still be flat and perpendicular all the same. What do you guys think?


----------



## backwoods

damn, which I would have noticed this thread earlier..

g'luck on the idmax, it's a nice sub and will do ok. But there are a couple reasons this sub is much nicer in a car, then in an HT. I haven't used the lastest version, but the IDmaxes I used previously all peaked 40-45hz, and allowed the transfer function in the vehicle to take over.

Now, move over to HT. IDMAX struggles mightily in this area, where it is easy to get a good woofer to dig below 60hz with solid output, and the below 40 region takes on more importance and there is no transfer function to help it out. 

In all honesty, there is no comparing using the wgti sub to the max. Really, Neil & DS are right on the money for most of this. (disagree on the SLS, and I am a BIG fan of the w7)

The max is a solid car sub, that can handle quite a bit of abuse, and is hard to make sound bad. But bringing it into the home, it becomes a subpar performer. You will definitly want to have some eq abilities available to you.

My personal favs so far in the house have been the ole school 1500gti's and my 15wgti's all in IB. Diyma's served a good role, and I would not hesitate to reccomend the XLS's to anyone. Really, this list could be very long and would be completely dependent on size of room and installation choices for mating to your towers. 

Design looks cool so far though...


----------



## ItalynStylion

Autiophile said:


> I would oppose the mirror on the issue of tackiness rather than any potential problem with reflections. I'd also think a mirror would get dusty.


It wouldn't look out of place I assure you.

But, let's say I chose not to do it anyways. The bottom base is made of (will be made of) painted MDF that is a flat in front of the sub. Will that negatively impact the sound?


----------



## Tommythecat

ItalynStylion said:


> Will that negatively impact the sound?


Nope.


----------



## GlasSman

Megalomaniac said:


> btw everyone, Ant is a badass cat! He sent me 4 knifes at his expense to show his gratitude!
> 
> I gave one to Steven, since he needed a new knife...no more huskys!


Nice...what'd you have to do to get those knives?


----------



## ItalynStylion

GlasSman said:


> Nice...what'd you have to do to get those knives?


Kill someone with your old knife....then send the blood of the victim to Ant


----------



## ItalynStylion

I did a lot more sanding yesterday and I also routed out the holes for the 1.5" dowel rods that will serve to space out the top portion of the base from the very bottom part that will be on the ground. I was originally going to use a half inch dowel and use many of them but instead decided to use 1.5" dowels and only use 6 for symmetry. They will space the two base parts about 5" from eachother giving the sub enough space.

I busted out the protractor that I hadn't seen/used since high school geometry. It was a big help when I was making my template; I don't know what I would have done without it.


----------



## Megalomaniac

GlasSman said:


> Nice...what'd you have to do to get those knives?





ItalynStylion said:


> Kill someone with your old knife....then send the blood of the victim to Ant


That sums it up 




na i just sent him an email asking for a decent pic of the knife and not of the studio shot, so he emailed:









then asked for my address, he told to check it out in person so he was sending me a free one at no charge cause i explained what happened to my husky. fast forward 5 days later, I open the package I see 4 of them . so I gave one to Italyn since he is one of the few SQ people I know in person so he gets one!

i texted him and said thanks a bunch! He really went above and beyond on this one. If only eD could do that for me


----------



## Megalomaniac

ItalynStylion said:


> I did a lot more sanding yesterday and I also routed out the holes for the 1.5" dowel rods that will serve to space out the top portion of the base from the very bottom part that will be on the ground. I was originally going to use a half inch dowel and use many of them but instead decided to use 1.5" dowels and only use 6 for symmetry. They will space the two base parts about 5" from eachother giving the sub enough space.
> 
> I busted out the protractor that I hadn't seen/used since high school geometry. It was a big help when I was making my template; I don't know what I would have done without it.


lol, geometry, dam thats so Softmore year


----------



## GlasSman

ItalynStylion said:


> Kill someone with your old knife....then send the blood of the victim to Ant


Ok.....I'll do that.

Anyone in Texas want to be offed so I can get my free knives?

CT pretty much takes care of itself as far as people getting offed.


----------



## ItalynStylion

GlasSman said:


> Ok.....I'll do that.
> 
> Anyone in Texas want to be offed so I can get my free knives?
> 
> CT pretty much takes care of itself as far as people getting offed.


I'll send you a list of people the mafia needs whacked


----------



## ItalynStylion

Just a few little updates today....

Sanding is slow but I've finished the top section of the base and routed the holes for the dowels. Yesterday I finally cut the circles for the lower portion of the base. It was tough because my Jasper Jig only goes up to 17.5" so I had to uhhhhh, "modify" some things to cut larger circles. It was super ghetto so I'll take that information to the grave with me but it worked flawlessly so that's all that really matters. I don't think I'm going to use any kitty hair on the base because it is a much sturdier structure than the top since the center sections are not cut out. There should be NO flex in it whatsoever so the body filler should be just fine. I'll coat it in resin first though.











After a visit to hobby lobby I found some vinyl that will work great for me. The stuff is 54" wide so it will be tall enough to use a single piece and just wrap it all the way around and have only one seam. I'll stick the binding posts along the seam so that area wont be seen. I think this stuff will look very nice. I originally thought that I would paint the top piece/plug that will have the port mounted in it but now I'm having second thoughts. I'm thinking I could cover it in some of this vinyl too and then the only part I would have to paint would be the base. What do you guys think?











Here is a shot of the enclosure pipe set into the top portion of the base. I just used the box to space out the top and bottom portion of the base sections about how far they will actually be spaced. They will probably be a little farther apart but this picture just gives you a little bit of an idea what the final product will look like


----------



## Megalomaniac

I see a lot of dust on that floor, get any on the G35? lol

Looking good!


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> I see a lot of dust on that floor, get any on the G35? lol
> 
> Looking good!


The G35 was gone so it was ok. I actually did most of the work outside in the far part of the driveway so it stayed relatively clean in the garage. 

I'd say the ETA on full completion should be about a week and a half. 



*QUESTION*: Since the plate amp will not be able to be housed in the enclosure I plan on building a small cube for it to be housed in. Do I need to vent the cube for heat dissipation purposes? The heatsink is on the outside back plate so it will be exposed to the air no matter what.

What do you guys think?


----------



## Inferno333

I would just make the cube with a mostly open back.


----------



## Megalomaniac

better yet make the base a round cylinder and stick it there! and make one of the dowels hollow down the center and run the speaker wire through there


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> better yet make the base a round cylinder and stick it there! and make one of the dowels hollow down the center and run the speaker wire through there


The amp face is too big to incorporate into the enclosure.

I did want to run the wire up one of the dowels; I think I mentioned it to you but I might not have. It would be ultra clean but here is the problem... If I run the wire up one of the dowels into the enclosure it would sort of attach the enclosure to the base. Plus, I already put the top portion of the base together as a single unit so I don't know how I would get the wire from the dowel to the top of the base...Any ideas?


----------



## Megalomaniac

eh just do the normal thing and run the speaker wire through the port


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> eh just do the normal thing and run the speaker wire through the port


Ewwwww....binding posts will be just fine k thnx


----------



## Oliver

If you intend to push the amp hard, use a fan [ heat rises ], suck the hot air up and push it out the top.


----------



## ItalynStylion

a$$hole said:


> If you intend to push the amp hard, use a fan [ heat rises ], suck the hot air up and push it out the top.


I'll look into it. How would I rig something like that with power from the wall?


----------



## Megalomaniac

ItalynStylion said:


> I'll look into it. How would I rig something like that with power from the wall?


you could find an old 12v adaptor you arent using and cut the end off and just solder it together (or put a female connector on the fan end o you dont have to cut the adaptor)


----------



## ItalynStylion

^I took your advise Mir and found an old adapter to hack up. I had a ton of them in my old toy box (yes I'm 22 and still have a toy box in the attic) from remote control car chargers and whatever else. I landed on a Sony one that had an output of 10V. Not quite 12V but it certainly moves enough air and is under 9db so I'll never hear it. I can either plug it into the wall on it's own; or I can find a way to tap into the power supply of the amp to just piggy back the fan which is what I'm likely to do. I know the fan is overkill but that's just the way I like it.


----------



## Spasticteapot

I know I'm stumbling into this conversation late, but a PA style amp is the only way to go. I bought for $50 a used Audio Centron rackmount amp capable of 1,600 watts bridged into 8 ohms!


----------



## ItalynStylion

Spasticteapot said:


> I know I'm stumbling into this conversation late, but a PA style amp is the only way to go. I bought for $50 a used Audio Centron rackmount amp capable of 1,600 watts bridged into 8 ohms!


It's indeed a little late for that. I've already got the plate amp and will be using it.


----------



## ItalynStylion

ok, so I finished the bottom portion of the base...here is a pic after sanding before I cut the holes for the dowel supports...










I cut the dowels long at first so I didn't screw myself if I decided I needed them longer; I figured I could just cut them a little shorter if they were TOO long. I'm thinking they look a little too long. They are about 6.25" long between the top and bottom portions of the bases.

Do you guys think I should shorten them a little? I took a pic with is set up but not attached yet.


----------



## ErinH

Man, this is coming along very nicely. 

I know you've said this before, but I can't find it. Is this downfiring?


----------



## ItalynStylion

bikinpunk said:


> Man, this is coming along very nicely.
> 
> I know you've said this before, but I can't find it. Is this downfiring?


Yep down firing...It's actually two totally separate pieces; one being the base section and the other being the pipe. The pipe part has a triple baffle of rings on it that help center it in the base. If you maximize the picture you can sort of see where the gap is on top. It will eventually get a liner that will keep it snug.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Some major progress....I'm actually almost done!

I finished painting/building the box for the amp. I've got a hole at the top int he back for the fan with a large opening on the bottom to let air flow up and out to cool the amp. I've mounted the fan and the amp in the box with a terminal cup for easy hook up. I'll add some small feet for the box so it will allow air to enter from underneath.

























As for the base pieces, they have been painted. The finish isn't perfect but I'm not a skilled painter so I'm satisfied with it. They will be put together tonight to form a single unit.


















Expect the finished product by the end of the week


----------



## Megalomaniac

you didnt buy the high surface build primer? it would fill all those valleys I see easy. :/


looks great overall!


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> you didnt buy the high surface build primer? it would fill all those valleys I see easy. :/
> 
> 
> looks great overall!


blahhhh, I couldn't find it and I got impatient 

I'm actually thinking about sanding down that part and going at it again but I'm not sure I really care. It's only rough like that on one side really and it shouldn't bother me that much. When it finally does bother me that much I'll do it again probably.


----------



## Megalomaniac

im excited about the foam


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> im excited about the foam


me too....I have to wait till it comes in to finish this damn thing. I can't mount the sub or put the port in till I put the foam inside.


PS: I finished the amp box today and hooked up the IDMAX to it and let it play about 3 hours free air just to break it in a little. I feel like I can hear some motor noise. Nothing like a coil rubbing, just movement of the cone I guess. Is it something I should inspect more or am I just being paranoid because it's the first time I've free aired a sub?


----------



## Megalomaniac

we free aired it in my car i didnt hear anything except bass....did you?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Well I was sort of half listening and half looking for Bren's half dead cat...so I'm not sure. It hasn't gone anywhere besides my laundry room counter since your video and my video...(as soon as it uploads)

I'll admit I'm sort of concerned by the noise; but the bass sounds fantastic! What do you guys think?


----------



## Megalomaniac

you sure its not the blue sticker on the motor flapping around where pole vent is?


----------



## Megalomaniac

well....?


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> well....?


Ehhh....no big deal........JK HOLY CRAP THE FOAM IS IN WOOOOO!

Yeah I'm a little excited but can you blame me? This was the last thing I was waiting on in the mail so now I can finish the damn thing up. I'm soooo close! 

Mir and I went in on some foam together because shipping was free on orders over $75. We bought a TON of foam. The packaging was unique I have to say. It came in VERY VERY tight boxes. Almost bursting at the seams. The boxes looked smaller than I thought they would have been. After opening the boxes the foam was wrapped up in plastic and inside a plastic bag. After unwrapping the plastic I punctured the bag and I heard this great "WOOOOOSH" and the whole thing grew to like 3 times the original package size!!!
Apparently it is vacuum sealed; what a great idea. I guess that's why they tell you to open the package immediately when you get it so the foam doesn't die. Looks like good stuff; I'm excited. Most of that foam will line the walls of my new apartment


----------



## ItalynStylion

Last night I spent some time on the sub and I feel like I got quite a bit done. I added the foam to the inside of the enclosure, added the vinyl to the outside of the tube, soldered and sealed in the binging posts too. I'm so close to being done I should hear this thing in the next couple of days.


----------



## Megalomaniac

thats sexy looking in the tube


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> thats sexy looking in the tube


Indeed...I'm going to add a little more where the binding posts are but I had to wait to do it so the silicone there would dry over night.

PS: Just let me know when you want to meet up and I'll give you your foam. Those 1x1ft squares look bad ass. I might have to place a second order in the future for some of those.


----------



## ItalynStylion

I really think the IDMAX I have is somehow messed up. I've sent low power to the thing just free airing it on digeridoo music that is a nice constant low note (somewhere around 60hz) for about 2 straight days. So the sub should have been perfectly broken in and ready to go. 

I finished the enclosure today, sealed up like Fort Knox, except for the port of course. The vinyl covering the pipe wasn't perfect but it was good enough for me. I could stand the visual flaws because I *thought* it was going to sound beautiful because my design was flawless.

Well guess who was wrong? IT SOUNDED LIKE TOTAL ****! I don't get it, I did everything right. My enclosure was basically a section of PVC pipe that had 3/8" thick walls; SUPER ridged! I lined the pipe with acoustic foam to kill any standing waves. It was three cubes total tuned to 24hz with a 4" precision port. The sub itself is making so much noise I can't even begin to focus on the music. I didn't even begin to test it because it sounded SOOOO ****ty at low volume I dared not try and turn it up. My voice coils were wired in series for a 4 ohm load to my 500watt plate amp.

WTH....I'm sending this thing back tomorrow.


----------



## nakamichidenon

I have been reading a lot of these replys.....Why not just buy a b&k or a velodyne spl series.... proven quality instead of spending your prescious time mickey mousing with ideas that have no results....look around for some...with a 1200 watt plate and a sub that looks like a tc ....Need some direction let me know....you could sell that id and get some quality....peace...


----------



## coke

ItalynStylion said:


> I really think the IDMAX I have is somehow messed up. I've sent low power to the thing just free airing it on digeridoo music that is a nice constant low note (somewhere around 60hz) for about 2 straight days. So the sub should have been perfectly broken in and ready to go.
> 
> I finished the enclosure today, sealed up like Fort Knox, except for the port of course. The vinyl covering the pipe wasn't perfect but it was good enough for me. I could stand the visual flaws because I *thought* it was going to sound beautiful because my design was flawless.
> 
> Well guess who was wrong? IT SOUNDED LIKE TOTAL ****! I don't get it, I did everything right. My enclosure was basically a section of PVC pipe that had 3/8" thick walls; SUPER ridged! I lined the pipe with acoustic foam to kill any standing waves. It was three cubes total tuned to 24hz with a 4" precision port. The sub itself is making so much noise I can't even begin to focus on the music. I didn't even begin to test it because it sounded SOOOO ****ty at low volume I dared not try and turn it up. My voice coils were wired in series for a 4 ohm load to my 500watt plate amp.
> 
> WTH....I'm sending this thing back tomorrow.


just as an experiment, try sticking the sub over in a corner of a room and see if the sound improves. 

I have a 15" dayton titanic + a 1000 watt rms plate amp. Improper room placement can make it sound like an 8" you'd expect to find at best buy or walmart


----------



## ItalynStylion

coke said:


> just as an experiment, try sticking the sub over in a corner of a room and see if the sound improves.
> 
> I have a 15" dayton titanic + a 1000 watt rms plate amp. Improper room placement can make it sound like an 8" you'd expect to find at best buy or walmart


It's not the enclosure, it's the sub. The sub itself is making TERRIBLE noises when any amount of power is applied to it. I exchanged a few PM's with Eric Stevens and he says that the IDMAX should have VERY low motor noise and that I shouldn't be able to hear anything when it's in the enclosure. 



nakamichidenon said:


> I have been reading a lot of these replys.....Why not just buy a b&k or a velodyne spl series.... proven quality instead of spending your prescious time mickey mousing with ideas that have no results....look around for some...with a 1200 watt plate and a sub that looks like a tc ....Need some direction let me know....you could sell that id and get some quality....peace...


The DIY in this web sites name stands for "do it yourself", which is what I plan to do. I like to build and I get a satisfaction from hearing something that I build. You say"Mickey mousing around" like I've never done this before. I have a HT sub at the moment (that I built) that I'd put up against just about anything. I'm not one to just buy something off the shelf....**** that

Once they send me a new one, I will be selling the IDMAX though . It's already on it's way and I should have it in a very short time. Eric and my ID dealer were very accommodating with the return process.


If I can sell the IDMAX I'll likely take this in a different direction. Some people have suggested I use more than one sub in the room for dispursion and for rounding out the sound of the whole room to eliminate "hot" spots where it's bass heavy. I think I might give that a shot. That Peerless XLS 12" mentioned by someone else in this thread looks like it could be a winner as it offers similar performance to the IDMAX and is cheaper. I wont have much, if any, time to build in the up coming weeks so I'll just have to see.


----------



## backwoods

give the xls a shot, or splurge and get a wgti.....

sounds like you have a rubbing vc if it's making that much noise. I went through that on a few of the maxes.


----------



## ItalynStylion

backwoods said:


> give the xls a shot, or splurge and get a wgti.....
> 
> sounds like you have a rubbing vc if it's making that much noise. I went through that on a few of the maxes.


I think I'll go with two of the XLS 830845's (single 8 ohm coils) in a sealed arrangement. I can parallel them on my plate amp for 500RMS, so 250 each. Unibox is saying that 69 liters in a sealed box is optimal but I'd like to bring it down to about 60 to save a little space and to control the movement of the woofer a little. Here is what I've got in Unibox at the moment, what do you guys think?


----------



## ItalynStylion

The GTI's are a bit much for me. I think I might be going with those XLS's for sure. I might have a buyer for the IDMAX already.

I was on HT shack and a guy had a pair of the XLS's on a dayton HT amp that was pushing 500RMS like mine. It seemed to work out well for him. His were both in the same box but I would like to do mine in two separate boxes; one on either side of the room.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Autiophile said:


> That's a good decision and probably the best value for your money.


That's what I'm hoping. What do you think about that enclosure plot in Unibox? I was playing with some dimensions and I think 62 liters (2.2cubes) will be doable for each driver in the space that I have. 

Did I plot that right in the program?


----------



## Megalomaniac

I am upset at all the work I helped on the enclosure to see it literately get axed


----------



## ItalynStylion

Megalomaniac said:


> I am upset at all the work I helped on the enclosure to see it literately get axed


The base that we made is still fine and dandy...Infact, with the repaint, it looks quite good. But the tube part is the only thing that is gone. I'll probably rebuild the tube part one day; just not anytime soon. It's been like 105 these past couple of days and I've long since lost patience with the project.


----------

