# My Humble Suzuki APV installation..



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

Head Unit :
1. Pioneer cassette P820 deck + Changer P 2000 (Analog 1)
2. Cd Changer P 2000 (Analog 2)
3. Tv 7 inch Motorized (Analog 3)
4. IPod Video 80G (Analog 3 split)
5. BlueSky home Dvd (Dolby Digital) ( Digital 1) (modified power supply)
6. Blue Sky home portable Dvd (DTS) (Digital2)
7. (PS2) (Analog 2 Split)
8. TBA (digital 3)

Processor :
Alpine RUX dan PXA 701

TUBE Power Amplifier : 
Butler 575 for Midbass, sub and rear
Milbert Bam 332 for Front speaker and Center

Speaker :
Front Speaker : Eon Mid 3 inch and Eon Tweeter
Center Speaker : Eon Mid 3 inch and 2 Eon Tweeters
Rear Speaker Eon Mid 3 inch and En Tweeter
Xo pasif : 24 db / Oktaf Linkwitz-Riley Acoustical Output
Subwoofer : Lanzar DC 12 inch DVC
Midbass Front : Kicker competition 6 inch
Midbass Rear : Kicker competition 5 inch

Cabling :
Digital Optical : Shark Wire
Digital Coaxial : Hushler
Video Cable : Hushler
Rca : Hushler
Speaker : Hushler
Dc + : 0 Awg
Dc - : 0 Awg 
Dc Jumper : 4 and 8 awg Shark wire

Capasitor : 
Amp Cap : Ads 2 Farad, Nichicon. Solen, panasonic, Elna, Auricap
HU Cap : Nichicon, Solen, Panasonic, Sanyo, Auricap

Monitor : 
Front : Front motorized 7 inch
Rear : 7 inch Headrest Monitor x 2

Head Phone for rear passanger:
Mini Headphone


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

My Head Unit :

















My processor:










Power Amp :
























Monitor Rear independent









Speaker Front, rear, center:
























Subwoofer and 0 Awg Cable


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

cable installation :


























Door Installation:


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

MID/Tweeter POD dan subwoofer installation :

Laser Pointer :









Driver And Passanger Aiming :









Subwoofer Box:


----------



## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

No noise issues with all your RCAs and power wires running together like that?


----------



## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

Nice install. It looks like it sounds really nice. 

Are all those speakers fastened? If there not, they'll come at you like missiles if you you get into a car accident.


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

All speaker are fastened to the dashboard, i dont run the dc cable wih rca nor speaker, the blue one is rca, the purple is speaker cable. the dc run in the left of the rca and speaker cable.


----------



## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

handy said:


> cable installation :


what is going on with your power cable coming out of this distro??? youve got what looks like 2 4ga cables electrical taped into a single 1/0ga cable???? also, the main wire feeding the distro block from the battery is much much smaller than that single 1/0ga wire. im not understanding your logic here?


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

my logic is only short cable so the current will not have a resistance. the long ru n is 1/0 awg.


----------



## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

handy said:


> my logic is only short cable so the current will not have a resistance. the long ru n is 1/0 awg.


I still dont quite understand your thinking. care to explain it in more detail?


----------



## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

the idea is its all resistance based. We could use 40 gauge cable for our main power wire if it were a superconductor 

but since resistance is a factor of length and diameter (L/D, actually), his logic is that he can get away with using 4 gauge from the battery to main distribution because the L value is super small. the long run is 0 gauge which we know uses a large D value to compensate for the large L value.

I'd be much more concerned about that 0/1 split into to 4 gauge lines. can't tell what measures he took to combine them. might just be twisted together then heatshrinked  I suspect we will see a little more attention to safety though.


----------



## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

oh i got ya. id be less worried about the resistance of the wire and more worried about the demand. that short run can still fry itself if too much demand is placed on it. since he is running 1/0ga to the back, there must be some equipment back there that has the potential to draw a lot of power right?


----------



## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

bobditts said:


> that short run can still fry itself if too much demand is placed on it.


you are absolutley right. So can the 0/1, too! Whether itll burn or not is based on resistance. Which is a factor of length and diameter.....


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

In my car i only use 5 x 75 watts and 4 x 75 watt, which play only in save 4 ohm. so i think it enough to have 0 awg cable.


----------



## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

It would be nice to see the wiring done correctly. One 0 gauge run to the distro block in the interior near the amps, fused within 18" of the battery. Then run your 4 gauge individually to each amp. It's simplified, safe, and you'll run less wire.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bobditts said:


> oh i got ya. id be less worried about the resistance of the wire and more worried about the demand. that short run can still fry itself if too much demand is placed on it. since he is running 1/0ga to the back, there must be some equipment back there that has the potential to draw a lot of power right?


Nah, he's got it right. That cable isn't going to fry. No chance. The resistance should be negligible.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Whiterabbit said:


> you are absolutley right. So can the 0/1, too! Whether itll burn or not is based on resistance. Which is a factor of length and diameter.....


Actually, whether it'll burn or not has nothing to do with resistance. It has to do more with resistivity (although not exactly).


----------



## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

Well, the resistance of the wire varies linearly with its length, yes...but what we're worried about here is heat that is generated from said resistance.

Some points to remember: Heat from current can be expressed as I^2 * R, where I is current and R is resistance. You can already see that current is a bigger factor than resistance in the equation, and that the heat varies linearly with resistance (which varies linearly with length for a given material, all other dimensions being equal).

Second: Length doesn't matter in this instance! "Less resistance because it's short" and "more resistance because it's long" doesn't matter at all...due to the fact that the heat generated from running current through that resistance is distributed over the length of the wire, just like the resistance is. In other words, longer wire = greater resistance, more heat generated, but more length to distribute heat over. Shorter wire = less resistance, less heat generated, but only a short distance to distribute heat over. If you keep all other factors the same (current, wire gauge), but vary wire length, you will find that the same amount of heat is generated per inch of wire no matter how long the wire is. _The length factor cancels itself out of the equation._

When you consider wire gauges in a car environment from a safety standpoint, you look at current you plan to run and wire gauge only. The thing you are actually affecting is the current density in the wire when its running the amount of current you intend to put through it. And current density is expressed as current per unit surface area, when viewing the surface made by a straight cut through the wire...in other words, the wire gauge! 

All you need to know is current and gauge, length has nothing whatever to do with whether or not you should use a specific wire gauge or not, at least from a safety standpoint. 

Sorry to make my first post an admonishment, but I don't want to see a lot of hard work and effort go into a dangerous situation and become a loss.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hi There said:


> All you need to know is current and gauge, length has nothing whatever to do with whether or not you should use a specific wire gauge or not.




Oh boy.......


----------



## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

chad said:


> Oh boy.......


Perhaps from a power handling standpoint you could make a case for the short wire theory...but from a safety standpoint, wire gauge (for normal, stranded wire you buy in a store for stereo applications...not superconductors and exotic materials) and current is all you really should look at.


----------



## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

chad said:


> Oh boy.......



You realize I'm speaking from a safety standpoint, right? I know you can cite voltage drops for longer cable runs, and lost energy that could be used to power inefficient tube amps, but I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone who might be concerned about, say, the insulation burning away from the wire in his short 4 ga. run from battery to distro. Yes, there are other concerns such as material, conductivity/resistivity, insulation...but all things being equal, we're probably not talking about superconductors, nor are we talking about lamp cord...we're talking about stranded copper or similar used in the type of cables you find powering car audio. 

Without knowing his fuse sizes, I'd have to guess that the most likely point of failure in his power circuit is right next to his battery, prior to fusing. That's not good. 

Safety is priority #1. Power losses due to voltage drops on longer cable runs are a distant second. Yes, you can make the case for a shorter wire run needing less thickness to provide an equal amount of power to the amps after cable losses, but that says nothing as to the safety issue.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

It takes POWER to make heat, not voltage, not amps, power. Power in watts can be converted to calories of heat via a simple linear function. 

That being said, look at things around you in home and industry, think of the POWER (as in VA) traveling thru the conductors. MUCH smaller wire guages are used to transfer this power... Is there more voltage loss? Yep! which is why we use larger wire at lower voltages regardless of power transfer, a 1.2V loss is 10% of your available voltage where as opposed to 120V whare it's a mere 1%, this is why, it's not due to heat. You have to run some VERY serious power thru even a 4GA cable to get considerable heating. 

The laws of physics don't change for car audio, just like the floating/fixed ground issue discussed earlier this week. It's for voltage loss alone, no reason to be concerned with safety unless the person is using a rather fine guage wire.

Chad


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

> I'd be much more concerned about that 0/1 split into to 4 gauge lines. can't tell what measures he took to combine them. might just be twisted together then heatshrinked I suspect we will see a little more attention to safety though.


The Join was soldered, then all wrap with heatshrink, its my wiring not safety? why?
i think my dc cable installation is very short, maybe about 5 inch from battery, and the other 8 gauge wire is use for head unit, thats why i can not use single fuse,



> Sorry to make my first post an admonishment, but I don't want to see a lot of hard work and effort go into a dangerous situation and become a loss.


why danger ??



> You realize I'm speaking from a safety standpoint, right? I know you can cite voltage drops for longer cable runs, and lost energy that could be used to power inefficient tube amps, but I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone who might be concerned about, say, the insulation burning away from the wire in his short 4 ga. run from battery to distro. Yes, there are other concerns such as material, conductivity/resistivity, insulation...but all things being equal, we're probably not talking about superconductors, nor are we talking about lamp cord...we're talking about stranded copper or similar used in the type of cables you find powering car audio.
> 
> Without knowing his fuse sizes, I'd have to guess that the most likely point of failure in his power circuit is right next to his battery, prior to fusing. That's not good.
> 
> Safety is priority #1. Power losses due to voltage drops on longer cable runs are a distant second. Yes, you can make the case for a shorter wire run needing less thickness to provide an equal amount of power to the amps after cable losses, but that says nothing as to the safety issue.


that say that spliced 1 cable with 2 cable and soldered and triple heatshrinked is danger ?, so what the suggest? i change my distro with 2 1/0 gauge hole? or what that you can suggest?

(sorry about my english:blush: :blush: )


----------



## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

chad said:


> It takes POWER to make heat, not voltage, not amps, power. Power in watts can be converted to calories of heat via a simple linear function.
> 
> That being said, look at things around you in home and industry, think of the POWER (as in VA) traveling thru the conductors. MUCH smaller wire guages are used to transfer this power... Is there more voltage loss? Yep! which is why we use larger wire at lower voltages regardless of power transfer, a 1.2V loss is 10% of your available voltage where as opposed to 120V whare it's a mere 1%, this is why, it's not due to heat. You have to run some VERY serious power thru even a 4GA cable to get considerable heating.


Yes, I understand that. I^2 * R is a formula for power losses due to power being converted to heat. For example, the amount of current traveling through a 1500 Watt 12V DC car audio amp, as opposed to, say a 1500 watt hair dryer plugged into a 120 V AC outlet, at the same power, is very different.....but the heating in the cable varies with the square of the current you run through it. 

The original question was "will the cable burn"...Every fuse I've ever seen is rated in amps, not watts of power. As you point out, you could hook a fuse, just like a wire, up to any number of different voltages, and provide any number of different powered loads at the end of your cable, and for each different voltage, it would take a different amount of power to the load (VA) to part the fuse. The only constant in the fuse parting, regardless of what voltage or power is being applied, would be the current. We use larger wire at lower voltages because at those lower voltages, we end up running a much higher current to meet the power demands. That "voltage drop" you talk about is one indicator of a loss of power to....heat in the wire. Regardless of whether you look at it from a safety point of view or a power at your amps point of view, the issue _is_ heat. Yes, power causes things to happen, but current is the one constant in the whole mess we can point to to express just how much we can stress a cable, or fuse, electrically. It's just a lot easier than saying "3000 or more watts of power expressed as heat sustained across a given cubic centimeter of cable will melt the copper".

And no, I don't believe it takes "serious power" to heat a cable six or seven inches long. I can do it on my kitchen stove on one of the smaller burners, enough to melt all the shielding. It takes "serious current" to generate that much heat in a copper cable electrically with the voltage locked in at 12, but I would guess that a thousand watts turned directly to heat and applied to a 6" 4ga. cable would be enough to make it glow red. Provided it's fused, however, you'd never reach the kind of current necessary to utilize that much power and turn it into heat.

I guess you're right tho, there shouldn't be a safety issue on that four gauge so long as it's fused. I'd still spend the five bucks and fatten it up, tho. Still, in a fault situation, if he's got max of 30 amps to set up in his 12V system before the fuse parts, that's 360 watts traversing that small cable...about half of which will be used to generate heat in the type of partial fault to ground that would give you a sustained high current, because there's nothing else for the energy to do.


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

handy said:


> The Join was soldered, then all wrap with heatshrink, its my wiring not safety? why?
> i think my dc cable installation is very short, maybe about 5 inch from battery, and the other 8 gauge wire is use for head unit, thats why i can not use single fuse,
> 
> 
> ...



You need to fix this, for many reasons. IT IS NOT SAFE, and it is hurting your system's potential as well. The EASY fix would be to get a quality battery terminal that will hold 1/0 gauge wire, as well as 8 or 4 gauge. Then, install a quality main fuse in between that, and run the 8 gauge wire through its own fuse as well. Actually, my view is that 8 gauge is WAY overkill for a head unit, and I'd remove that and go with something in the 10 or 12 gauge range, but thats your choice. 

Here's how it should look:









That allows you to run 1/0 gauge right out of the battery terminal, as well as other, smaller sizes. No other parts necessary, just bare wire right in (like most amps)










This is a good fuse that you can use right off the 1/0 gauge. Run this within 12" of the battery wiring.

Hope this helps you!
Then run a smaller fuse


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> You need to fix this, for many reasons. IT IS NOT SAFE, and it is hurting your system's potential as well.


Other than the tape... Explain why it is not safe.....


AND I am all ears as to how doubling up a couple SHORT chunks of heavy guage wire into a heavier guage wire can harm system potential.

how much AVERAGE power do you think that system is REALLY drawing?

You May be suprised!

THOSE WIRES ARE NOT GETTING HOT!

Look at the realistic draw.

Chad


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Chad, I'm not saying his car will burn to the ground.

But, would YOU do it, or advise anyone else to? 

No. Please say no.



What I'm trying to say is that you've bottle-necked an otherwise great setup, so why not get it right?

Here's one thing that could potentially be unsafe: The use of a distribution block as a main fuse. Several issues of elemental wear and tear come to mind, and with that, reduced conductivity of the metals exposed. Whereas I feel that a main fuse holder is designed with under hood temperatures and elemental resistance in mind.

Bottom line, even if I'm wrong about it being dangerous,...and i probably am,...I was trying to create an urgency for you to have it correct. To me, this would be like painting a masterpiece, and leaving a corner undone just because you didn't feel like doing it. If something is worth doing, then do it right (at least in the end)


----------



## handy (Feb 23, 2007)

> You need to fix this, for many reasons. IT IS NOT SAFE, and it is hurting your system's potential as well. The EASY fix would be to get a quality battery terminal that will hold 1/0 gauge wire, as well as 8 or 4 gauge. Then, install a quality main fuse in between that, and run the 8 gauge wire through its own fuse as well. Actually, my view is that 8 gauge is WAY overkill for a head unit, and I'd remove that and go with something in the 10 or 12 gauge range, but thats your choice.
> 
> Here's how it should look:
> 
> ...


thank, that make sense about danger and unsafe in my cable installation. i'll gonna fix that soon.
the problem here in my country is rare to get 1/0 gauge, so the fuse block usually can only hold to 4 gauge.
i want to impress judge with my 1/0 gauge in the contest, so i use that big cable. but that again your suggest is make sense.
thanks again.


----------



## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

chad said:


> Other than the tape... Explain why it is not safe.....
> 
> 
> AND I am all ears as to how doubling up a couple SHORT chunks of heavy guage wire into a heavier guage wire can harm system potential.
> ...



I think you're right, realistically, he won't be drawing that much current, especially with tube amps and (if he's smart) some high-efficiency speakers. I'd be more concerned with a partial fault to ground, like I said earlier, running thru a fat fuse. But even then, the fuse would probably do its job (a 30-amp fuse won't sustain 30 amps, afaik, they part earlier with sustained amperage near their rating.

I'll stick by my math, tho, length has nothing to do with a fuse parting or not, or heating a wire more or less over any given length of it, all other things being equal. Even in a fault situation, the amount of variance to resistance from a longer/shorter wire run would not make a difference with the battery's maximum ability to react chemically being put to the test...the battery would become the limiting factor for current, and our nice math based on a constant 12V would fly out the window (else we could generate heat of fusion with a 12V battery and some copper wire shorted to ground).


----------



## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

handy said:


> The Join was soldered, then all wrap with heatshrink


The amount of heat needed to properly solder 1/0ga wire is enough to damage the wire and melt the plastic sheathing. chances are, you have a cold solder joint.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Fuses usually blow at over their rated pass, sometimes 50% over depending on the design. they will pass their rated current with no problem for a very long time. 

As for average current draw just FYI, my Next amp requests 4 20A fuses to be installed... I have a 40 under the hood and have yet to pop it, BUT I'm running 4 of the channels at 8 ohms and I'm positive that's the reason, and I run the hell out of it sometimes. My truck's amp states a 75A consumption MAX, it's fused at 25A! never an issue running 4 ohms across the whole amp.

It's rough for him to have limited avalibility of the power connectors he needs, especially because he probably knows some of us MAY have the part he needs not in use. Sucks man!

Bob, if you are good at soldering you can make a nice joint with any wire without damaging it, the insulation may get soft but it takes an INCREDIBLE amount of heat to melt/damage copper, as in I've seen car fires that take the insulation right off and leave the copper untouched, and they burn hot enough to melt aluminum wheels.

Chad


----------

