# CALLING ALL JBL 2118H EXPERTS



## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi,I was wanting advice for installing the Jbl 2118H woofers in the bottom of my doors for the best possible sound quality.Can I just put them in the doors and deaden the doors to make sure there are no vibrations and get the best possible sound quality out of them for high volume listening.They will be used for midrange reproduction., or is a small wooden sealed enclosure needed to put the speaker in first,and then install it in the door.If this is the case,What is the very best size for the cubic feet box that is needed for it to give me the very best sound quality the speaker can produce, for very high volume ,and very clear detailed sound quality listening.Also what would be the best wood to use to build the box for maximum SQ from the woofer,and does it need to be damped,and if so,what material, and where in the box, and how much.I do not want to use fiberglass since I do not know how to work with it ,and no installers around me have any experience with it. I would love for it to just drop in,but I want to check with all the experts on this fine site that have either installed these personally, or know exactly what it takes to make these sound their very best.Thanks in advance to all that came to answer this question.P.S if someone can also guide me on how to install the Jbl 2204H speakers for their best possible sound quality,with either simple drop in specs or the perfect cubic foot box size and materials for best possible SQ.That would be a huge bonus.Just apply all my above questions that were asked about for the Jbl 2118H to the Jbl 2204H woofers.They will be installed in the same place, in the side panels behind the front seats that the Grand National had them in.This would be a huge bonus to get it answered as well,but I,ll take what I can get.Any help will be greatly appreciated.Thanks


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I have JBL 2204's in my car. If you model the TS specs in Unibox for example, it will suggest a .5 cu/ft enclosure, but JBL recommends a 1 cu/ft enclosure to get more bottom end. Mine are in the 1 cu/ft sealed enclosures. 

I installed a set of 2118's in a freinds car and used them in my house for two years. They are great sounding speakers. But they have their downsides also. They are big and deep and will begin to beam before smaller speaker. But they are great sounding.

If you are going to have 2204's as your midbass there is very little reason to run an 8" such as the 2118 for midrange. Consider running a smaller 6.5" PA speaker like the Audax PR170M0. They are great speakers and sound more dynamic and open than the 2118's. From 300Hz and up they just sound better IMO. The Audax's can be run in 2 liter sealed enclosures which is not to difficult to get into doors, they fit in my RSX (Civic) doors pretty easily. 

I run 2204's and Audax in my car the sound is impressive in its quality and power. Drums sounds like you are sitting next to a drum, including all the pain if the volume is to high. Vocals are fantastic. I am running 50 watts to my Audax's and that is more than enough for anyone. I running 160w to the JBL's and that should get me to 123 db or so. My amps never get hot...ever. You don't need a lot of power with PA speakers. If you look there are some Audax's in the classified's right now that you could get very cheapily.

If you want to use the 2118's , These are some good threads to read. there is some info on the JBL's and the Audax's also:
JBL 8" ? - CARSOUND.COM Forum
Dynaudio Image Dynamics JBL Midbass Feedback - CARSOUND.COM Forum
JBL 2118H How Much Power ? - CARSOUND.COM Forum
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...anced/82067-diy-reducing-speaker-beaming.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...allery/13527-dodge-ram-install-thread-13.html


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi,Thanks for the personal information on the speakers I requested.It's very nice to talk to someone that has listened to all of them, not just in the home,but in the car like I am trying to use them in. It's funny how you mention the audax PR170M0 midrange.I have danced all around that midrange wondering if it was as good as people were saying,but could never find someone that was actually using it in their car audio SQ system.Will it do a good job like the seas,and scanspeak 6.5'' midranges.Most of the dedicated car audio specific midranges are overated and don't end up sounding as good as say the audax.It looks like the audax is 100Db sensitivity,that should get pretty loud pretty quick.For my midrange sound,I really like the snappy sound a good midrange produces at high volumes,will these deliver the high snap like they were hitting the drum cleanly beside me in the car,coupled up with hearing all the drum sounds clearly,with top notch realistic male and female vocals,all delivered at the painfull volume levels you described if needed.It will definitely be needed by me.That is my passion.Very realistic high volume car audio SQ listening.Can the Audax just be dropped into the door without the 2 litre sealed enclosure ,or will they not sound very good like this,should they be mounted close to the floor in the door or up pretty close to you.Also should there be damping in either of the boxes and if so where.For the JBL 2204.,Can you get away with just the .5 cubic feet box or will you lose too much range and volume and have them not sound very realistic.The reason I wonder about this is., I am trying to mount them behind the front seats in the side panels,and am not sure I have 1.0 cubic feet of space to play with.I know by talking with you that 1.0 is the absolute best for SQ.What will a .5 enclosure do to my realistic sound quality and volume.Where did you find the space to mount your 1.0 cubic feet boxes. and last but not least do you have a couple of subwoofers installed in the trunk as well.Sounds like you have a very realistic sounding stereo that is able to sound good at low,and most importantly ,at high volume levels.I like yourself am not interested in hearing any distortion whatsoever.Just high volume drums,vocals,and all instruments delivered very cleanly at high volumes.It's an absolute pleasure to talk with someone like yourself that knows what I am talking about, and shares my same interest,since I am from a small town,and there is no one even remotely close,doing what I am doing.I am a one man show, until you stepped into the picture.That's why all your help is greatly appreciated.Looking forward to hearing from you.Thanks Carey


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike7182 ran 2204's and tested both the 2118 and Audax w/o enclosures in his doors. In the end Mike told me he chose the JBL becuase he wanted an all JBL system. In his view they were very comparable. In my view the Audax is snappier, more open and better on vocals. 

The advantage of the JBL is it can play much lower. While the Audax is not much good lower than 300-400Hz. The JBL can be run to 120-150Hz. Some say lower, but I am not buying it at volume. This is Mike's build thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/102176-2003-s-10-pro-audio-blowthrough.html

I think if you like snappy realistic sound at realistic volumes the Seas can not compare to the 2118 or Audax. With the PA speakers you can feel the power of the instrument; horn, drum, trumpet...if the instrument has power you will hear it. The Seas will sound subdued by comparison.

Do a search on the Audax's, there is plenty of info on this forum.

With the JBL 2204 you lose 2 db at 80Hz with a .5 vs. 1 cu/ft box. But I can not say what they will sound like in the smaller box. 

Here are some pics of the build. I will try to post the completed install pics tomorrow. The car is a 2 door RSX hatch and the 2204's are in the rear door/quarters.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Hey, I haven't been on here in ages, and the first thing I see is Mitch talking about two of my favorite drivers ever  

I had a big long reply ready then read Mitch's latest post, so looks like most of my thoughts are there already. I will say that after listening to both the 2118 and Audax extensively, I would choose the Audax overall for a midrange-specific application. Equally as efficient (read=loud) as the 2118 at any given volume, and a bit more snappy/in-your-face. Plus they're smaller, so install is easier. I just ran mine IB in the doors and they screamed. At any rate, I am in the process of selling that S10- welding in some new sheet metal this weekend to fill the blowthrough. I traded my Magnum in on a 2004 F150 SuperCrew and have a build planned for it, the gear for which will look eerily similar to what was in the S10.  I sold the 2118 and kept the Audax. 

As for the 2204, one of the biggest midbass whores I know sat in the S10 and said "I hate to say this, but you may want to turn the 2204 down... just a hair!" They are ruthless. Mine were vented which gave them even more grunt. Sealed or vented, they will be unlike anything you've experienced in a car before.

Do yourself a favor and pair these with some horns.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Nice to hear from you Mike and well said.

I run the JBL MS-8 as my processor and I turned the 2204's down also.


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

mitchyz250f and mikey7182: Care to share your crossover points? How is the upfront bass illusion with midbasses in back? Any TA or phase tricks to help? Am running three way with 2206H in rear (currently 80hz-800hz but am experimenting with LP freq) and am having trouble getting everything in front of me.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

The 2204 will start to beam at 600Hz I wouldn't run it higher than that unless you had to. I currently run my JBL's from 80 to 350Hz and run the Audax's from 350Hz to 3000Hz. I use the MS-8 and the bass is solidly up front. Only on the Cello does the sound seem to come from the rear.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I experimented with a few different points for the 2204H. Lowest HPF was 63hz and highest LPF was 315hz, all 4th order slopes. Mine were vented and tuned to 60hz, so I didn't have as much rolloff down low as you might in a sealed enclosure and could get away with the lower HPF. The Audax did great from 250 up, and I alternated between 250 and 315 pretty regularly. I also benefited from having 8 high efficiency drivers shoehorned into a single cab S10, so "up front" was replaced by "completely immersed." I think I had a pretty solid stage, and always had great height in that truck. The live impact in that tiny cab rivaled every show I've seen this year and more than made up for any staging deficiencies.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Also not sure what your exact setup is, funk, but a common trick I used in the S10 was putting the driver's side midbass out of phase and the passenger side in phase. You'd lose a little midbass output but it tended to raise the stage. I don't think in this latest install I did much with delay on the midbass. Can you provide more details about your install? Vehicle? Other drivers? Amplification? Processing?


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi, It's great to hear from all you JBL sound quality veterans.I'm sure glad I signed up to these forums,all your info is priceless.I see most of you are turning down the Jbl 2204 speakers because you say they can be ruthless.What do you mean by that.Are they overpowering all of your other speakers in your stereo SQ install, or are they just too much for the ears to handle.Are they really as good as you guys say in producing perfect drum set sounds or are they just loud and most of the detailed sound lost.I,ll be doing a pretty good hack job on the car and definitely want to make sure,Most people will call me crazy because I already have a great SQ 3 way set up that can go very loud and stay very clear.Am I crazy to swap out Seas RW165/1 midrange ,midbass speakers and the 4 1/2 focal utopia midranges.Will I be able to match the sound quality of those speakers at high volumes with the Jbl 2118 and the Jbl 2204.I,d hate to just have loud and lose the clarity and detail.I'm hoping to have the best of both worlds.Loud and detailed,with real life impact.If anybody knows the answer.It will certainly be you JBL vets.Should I stay or should I roll the dice.Thanks


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I use ruthless in this context the same way I would use "sick" or "brutal" or "killer." They are amazing, if you prefer a less confusing descriptor.  Have you been to a live show? Not some instrumental jazz unplugged, but a real live show, like Deftones, Tool, Dave Matthews, etc? Something where the kickdrum and bass guitar hits you so hard internally you find it tough to breathe? Those aren't the subwoofers/30 cycles doing that to you.  

Do you already own the 2118? If not, I would buy the Audax instead for reasons already mentioned. They pair flawlessly with the 2204 as experienced firsthand by both Mitch and myself. What do you plan on running for a tweeter? Your concern about having drivers overpower one another will really only occur if you mismatch drivers to begin with. You will have trouble pairing a small format tweeter with a sensitivity in the high 80s/low 90s to midrange and midbass with efficiencies approaching 100db, unless you gain the mids and midbass way down, which kinda defeats the purpose of using them in the first place. Mitch has had good luck with his setup. I'm a horn guy and have been trying to convert him over to the dark side for years.  I used the gear still listed in my sig, which was basically 60w per horn, 60w per Audax, 150w per 2204H, and 600w per W15GTi. I am fairly confident I suffered some hearing loss, and there was never a lack of clarity or a hint of distortion. What are you using for processing?


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

This is how I described my system on DIYAudio:
'I guess I would define dynamic as sounding real or live, like sitting next to drums, a piano, French horn or stand up bass. Like the instruments are there in the car with you. My whole system was developed to reproduce dynamics and get those big JBL guitar speakers in my car. But when it was done I felt the impact and power of drums and bass, but it still didn’t feel dynamic. But what did I know, dynamics was something I had read about but never really felt.

But because female vocals didn’t sound as clear and refined as I wanted I switched my mids to Audax PR170M0 (driven by a D200II). Then the drums, bass guitar and horns all became much more real. And the female vocals are MUCH better.

Now when horns hit, you can almost see the horns lift up to the sky and you feel the power, and it is startling for that second, and then they are gone and all is quite again. Drum hits sound like the drums are in the car, you can feel the impact, crisp and sharp. Stand up bass and bass guitar make your shirt and pants move with distinct reverberations. 

But the music isn't playing loudly; it is just there when it is required. It sounds no louder than you have heard it a hundred times before but there is much more impact and sharpness. More than power it is the immediacy and sharpness of the sound that is so compelling.

The whole experience has been transforming, I started listening to classical music. I can begin understand (I think I can begin to understand) what the composer was trying to do by having different instruments playing at the same time. In Beethoven’s 5th I feel as though the orchestra is pushing the violins forward. I know, strange.

You don’t feel that when music is just loud, this is much different than loud. It is there and then it is gone. But I am really over my head trying to explain what dynamics mean to me and how it changes the music."

I summary the sound is always detailed and dynamic, it is never muddy. Musicians like drummer, pianist, guitar players that listen to my car say it is the best they have ever heard short of a concert hall. One guy that I work with is a music teacher and regularly brings CD's in to play in my car because he says he knows there are things (tiny details) that he cannot hear on his expensive home system that he can hear in my car.

You can listen to Ozzy and have great fun . And then listen to Aretha's 'Son of a Preacher man' and be shocked and begin to understand how great she was. 

What more can I say?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I may have missed this, but what does your system consist of Mitchy?


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi Again Mikey7182 and others.First off I clicked on the link that showed mikeys huge Jbl install.You are very talented to be able do do all that work yourself.My install is a lot like yours except I have used the regular tweeters ,midranges and subwoofers that were so called,made specifically for car audio.That,s why I love talking to you guys,because I believe now that the best car audio stereos in the world are built with bigger,more sensitive,home speakers.I myself haven't proved it yet.But I believe the proof is in the pudding with the oldschool SQ installs like the buick had and most definitely in both of your fantastic car,truck stereo installs.I myself have been running oldschool quality components .I run the Flagship anniversary alpine 7909 deck, and like to keep things very simple.The only thing close to processing that I have in my the SQ stereo, is the flagship alpine 3321 11 band equalizer,that you can fade from front to back to even out the sound and the 11 bands to tweak all my sounds perfectly.I,ve suffered no hearing loss because of the clarity I have it set at.,been listening at high volumes for 20 years now.My 3 way front consists of the seas RW165/1 6 1/2 inch midrange,the focal utopia 4 1/2 inch midranges and the flagship huge alpine 6022 tweeters.they'll take 300 watts if need be.I have the tweeters in the a pillars and the 2 midranges mounted in oak on the front doors.I know most people usually don't install anything in the back for speakers for fear of pulling the sound backwards,but I have never had a problem with that whatsoever.I think it wouldn't sound as good without them.In the back I have another set of the huge 6022 tweeters mounted in oak and have the alpine flagship spxf17t 6.5 inch midranges in oak beside them.In the trunk behind the seat are 2 mCcaully made for alpine 6012 subwoofers,that are both 12 inches.The front components are powered by 2 oldschool alpine 300watt rms amps,another 2 alpine 3544 amps for the other back component speakers.The 2 MCcaulley subs are run off 2 oldschool alpine 1505 amps that run about 500 conservative rms watts to each sub.I like having the power to have lots of headroom so I can turn it up really loud and keep it really clear.To me the fun really is in the high volume listening.The sounds are all separated up with 4 of the large 3 way,tri-ampable flagship spxf17t crossovers tied all together with very thick power and grounding cables,Oh yea,almost forgot the semi alternator in there and the 2 large power caps.I like the stereo a lot and have had no complaints from others,but I think what you guys are doing by installing the large efficient speakers in your vehicles will allow for that impactfull feeling.I want to join your elite group and feel the concert type impact,coupled up with the clarity and detail.I am very happy with the clarity and detail and while it is really loud,I am sure I am missing that bigger speaker impact,especially in the midbass department.Common sense tells me ,How can a 6 1/2 inch midbass compare to a 12 inch midbass for impact and SQ.One speaker is working balls to the wall to produce midbass while the other is simply cruising and having a easy time, as well the extra efficiency I'm sure doesn't hurt..By summer time I will change to the 2 12 inch midbasses,I don't know where I will fit them in,but like you guys,I will definitely find a way.Most certainly will add the other midrange as well.I already have no trunk left,I might as well occupy some of the back panels and fit one less person in.I'd rather have less people and more sound.After all I am doing this for myself and not to show it off.I just want the best, like you guys have.With a few tweeks and your guys help,I know this will be possible.I,ve also liked those Pioneer Flagship Dexp99rs decks.If memory serves me correct,mitch is running that.From what I've read those are supposed to easily be the best in the world right now for SQ,I know they have way more processing and stuff in them than the alpine anniversary 7909,but all processing aside.How are the SQ comparisons between the two.Please do not turn this fine thread about Oldschool Jbl quality woofers into the alpine compared against pioneer flagship decks thread.I just want to know if someone has compared the 2 for SQ.A quick shout out to Mitchyz250.I read your explanation on you describing the sound of a quality stereo like yours., and none of it went over my head,You couldn't have described it better.That is exactly what I am looking for.You guys should be very proud to have achived this level of impact and sound quality in your car and truck installs.Usually this sound quality is only achieved in a good high end home SQ stereo. Thanks again to all that came to this question on the JBL woofers.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Sounds like you have some really nice gear. You can start off by pairing the Audax and 2204 with those 6022, but I have a feeling the tweeters may not hang. You may also decide later that you want more subwoofer output, but one step at a time.  Regardless, you're going to need a few things for what you're trying to accomplish. First off, a list of things you'll need to accomplish your goal:

7 or 8 channels of amplification, depending on # of subs (1 channel per driver)
4-way (3-way+sub) active xover
8 channel Time Alignment
Decent EQ

You mentioned the DEX-P99RS. I have owned several and they are phenomenal, especially for an all-in-one solution. Has everything mentioned above built into a single DIN chassis with no external processor to worry about mounting. Another good option, and typically less expensive, is the Alpine H700 or H701 (same thing basically). You can control it with several different Alpine headunits including their double DIN IVA-W200/W205/W505, or use the RUX-C701 controller with whatever headunit you want. 

I would ditch the rear speakers as well, which will increase the number of channels of amplification you won't have to buy  Plus you may find the 2204H have a nice home in the rear deck where the SPX and 6022 used to reside if they don't fit in the rear quarterpanels.

Both the 99RS and H701 give excellent control of individual channels directly from the HU/Controller. You can control the level, phase, xover point, slope and EQ for each channel. The 7909 is a solid HU and if you want to keep it for source, you could always add on the H701 with the RUX controller. If you went to something like the 99RS, I don't think you'd lose anything in terms of "SQ" and would gain so much more in terms of modern versatility, processing, etc. Plus that 7909 should help fund a 99RS quite nicely. 

I may have misread or misunderstood, but do you have an old Grand National like Richard Clark, or were you just referencing that install?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Those Audax are just amazing midranges. Those have to have been the best most open sounding midranges that I have ever had in my car. They are not state of the art by any means...but they do sound great. Those and some 8" PHL Audio pure midranges were just incredible especially with horns.

There is a scale to the music that just can't be recreated in the same way with small midranges.

You guys are making me want to do 2118s or 2204s in my current car though I have no idea where to put 2204s.


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi,Thanks for all the great advice.I,ll answer your last question first.I wish I had a grand national,but none parked in the driveway here.I might look into that flagship pioneer deck,that will make things a lot simpler,and all in one never hurts.Any place that sells one for the lowest price you know of.I started this thread talking about the JBL 2118 midranges.If I wanted to keep everything Jbl,Would I be making a mistake,Will I not get any snap or clarity at high or low volumes with it.Also my stereo seems to come alive a lot more when I start getting over half volume.How do your guys' stereos sound when you aren't really pushing them, and are in low volume mode(like that ever happens with you guysDo it still have a nice full sound at the very low volumes,also can you hear good detail at the lower volumes or does it need to be turned up to a certain level to get the SQ and detail to come alive.I am definitely sold on the 2204,just want to make sure if I can use the 2118 speakers,and get very good sound quality,detail and clarity out of them Thanks .


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

My system:

HU: Mckinstosh/Subaru DD
DSP: JBL MS-8

Sub: DIYMA12R, in hatch in a .90 cu/ft stealth ported enclosures tuned to 28Hz
Amp: Orion 280GX mono, 400 mono, 

Midbass: JBL 2204, in rear quarter in .95 cu/ft enclosures
Amp: Orion 2150GX, 75w/ch - 8 Ohms

Mid: Audax PR170MO, in OEM door location in 2 liter sealed enclosure
Amp: Soundstream D200II, 50w/ch - 8 Ohms

Tweeters: Morel MT23, in pillars soon to be in doors
Amp: D100II, 50w/ch 

Center: JBL 104H-2 and Morel MT23, on the center dash. 
(This is the weakest part of my system, but the center still adds tremendously to the front end)
Amp: Soundstream D200II Mono, 200 mono - 8 Ohms

Rears: Peerless TG9, in the tops of the rear doors aimed between driver and passenger
Amp: MC140 bridged, 90w/ch

The Orion GX amps have been tested recently and all put out a good amount more power than rated _@ 12V._


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have had crazy thoughts about 104Hs as midranges in my 3 way doors with 2118s on the bottom...I do really like those drivers too.

If you can fit them, the Beyma CP21/f is a hella nice tweeter that doesn't cost a fortune.

My home horn system uses both of those drivers.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I have thought of a similar system but with a 2105. Why the 104H with the 2118?

My home tower system have a Beyma CP21/f, 2 Audax's and 1 15" JBL (E145) per side . The Beyma tweets sound great but they are not small tweeters by any means. 

If you can suggest a small tweeter for my car I would be very happy to try it out.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Cause I could rob them out of my home speakers that have no place to go right now (no place for them with the daughter) 

As you know, high efficiency and small size are some what mutually exclusive. But I will do some digging to see what I can come up with.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

What do you think of the SB SB29RDNC-C000-4, 94 db sensitivty, (96db from 3K to 8K) and fairly small?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> I have thought of a similar system but with a 2105. Why the 104H with the 2118?
> 
> My home tower system have a Beyma CP21/f, 2 Audax's and 1 15" JBL (E145) per side . The Beyma tweets sound great but they are not small tweeters by any means.
> 
> If you can suggest a small tweeter for my car I would be very happy to try it out.


I know Dave (ClinesSelect) used the 2105 in a 3-way with the 2118 and he ended up swapping them out for the 500GTi. And then a pair of 500GTi per kick.  The 2105 is a solid driver though. I am not familiar with the 104H. 

To the OP: I don't think the 2118H is a bad choice for midrange, and if you're looking to keep the entire install JBL, that's fine. Of course that means you'll have to get rid of those Alpine woofs and put a single W15GTi vented in the trunk.  Mitch and I were recommending the Audax over the 2118 because of ease of install and arguably better performance, but the 2118 is no slouch.


hatedguy- what do you drive? I just picked up a 2004 F150 SuperCrew and am going to attempt to downfire a pair of 2204 under the rear seat with external ports if I can squeeze the volume out of the location. I am at a point where I'll stuff a large format, high efficiency midbass just about anywhere I can... it was that awesome.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

01 Lexus IS300.

It's tight on space.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

For a tweeter...if you can fit it:

Aurum Cantus AST2560 Aero Striction Tweeter 276-440

I have a wholesale account at PE if you are interested...$39 bux cheaper than catalog price. I use a smaller style of this tweeter now and they are fantastic.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Little info on the 2105 vs. 104H-2:

2105H or 104H-2?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Or this:

Solen Electronique Inc.

I use it's little little brother the RT20021 and it's pretty fabulous. Meniscus has them both though not on their website.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And if you are really balling, the Beyma TPL-150 is redonkious.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Thanks Jason, all great suggestions but they are all still really big. I currently have my tweeters in the lower pillars but was planning on moving them the the upper door in front of and slightly above the door handle as Andy has suggested. If I put the ribbons in the doors I am concerned about beaming. If you think these ribbons are absolutely the way to go I will make oversize sail panels and install the ribbons there. What is you opinion on ribbons in sail panels? If it makes any difference I am using an MS8 as my DSP.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

The reviews on the AC are pretty amazing. I am pretty sure I have got ribbon fever now. The Beyma is just too expensive for me. 

BTW, can I cross the Aurum Cantus down to 3K at 24db? Also could I angle the ribbons in the doors rather than having them vertical to eliminate the beaming issue or will that damage the fragile ribbon.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Sorry, double post.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Those are Heil-type air motion transformer tweeters.


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

mikey7182:

- 1993 Ford Mustang GT

- USD horns with GPA 909B-16 drivers off of a bridged JBL P80.4 (40W per horn) pushed as far forward and to the outside as possible without some major wheel well cutting.

- JBL 2206 4ohm drivers off a bridged JBL GTO 75.4 (300W per midbass) in approx 1ft3 sealed and stuffed boxes directly behind and slightly to outsides of rear seats.

- Elemental Designs B6 (made with leftover A-series parts) on a JBL BP1200.1 at 2ohms (1200W to sub) in an approx. 2.5ft3 sealed wheel well enclosure.

-Signal chain= iPad > dbx1231 > dbx3BX-DS > signal splits to two miniDSP 2X4 then to amps.

With the power I am giving them the GPAs are rated to 500Hz program, thermal, and pink noise. Of course then pattern control goes to hell with the undersized horns. I am going to try backing it down in very small steps to see if it still sounds good the closer I get to 500Hz. Then I can drop the lowpass on the 2206s accordingly and see if that improves things. If all else fails in creating the type of systems you and mitchyz250f have then I see a pair of Audax in my future.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You should be able to get the big USD horns down to 500...I know the big ID horns would go that low but not much below it as they had a 480 hz flare rate.

Steep XO slope will be your friend. 48dB/oct or higher will be the key.

You like those GPAs? I have heard several people rave about how natural they sound. Probably not much past 12k, but I would trade that for the midrange realism Altec is known for.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You guys are making me teary eyed knowing there are several of you whack jobs out there that like the same kinds of systems that I like.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Those are Heil-type air motion transformer tweeters.


I am new to those as well... how can they be installed? I have fairly large A pillars in the new truck. They might be fun to try out if I can fire them across the windshield at each other. How do they compare to horns in terms of sound? Obviously they aren't as efficient but my horns are typically gained down anyway to level match with the other drivers.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

They are very shallow so that's a bonus. And most of the time the face plates can be removed to make them even smaller.

A friend of mine that has worked retail car audio for the last nearly 20 years told me they were really realistic sounding, very detailed and no harshness at all.

They are used in some very high end and re-regarded studio monitors from ADAM, ELAC, and a few others.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

funkalicious said:


> mikey7182:
> 
> - 1993 Ford Mustang GT
> 
> ...


Yeah, you could definitely try playing with the xover points- I didn't realize you were using the 2206 in a 2-way. Very ambitious!  You may end up getting better results with a dedicated midrange. The 2206 is definitely capable into the 600-800hz range, but rear-mounted and with a horn that may not do very well down to 400-500hz, it may simply be easier to bridge the gap with something like the Audax or 2118.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

mitchyz250f diyaudio post is as close to pure poetry as I've read on this forum...


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

thehatedguy: That is good news indeed, my friend. My understanding is the USDs have a 350Hz flare rate. 48db LW slope no problem with miniDSPs. Yes, the realism on them even with a "Joe Basic" tune is outstanding. Can't wait to throw on some Roberta Flack when the tune is right! Thanks for the info man.

mikey7182: I've been chasing the GN tail since I first heard about it back in the day reading a reviewers' description of the stage ,"singer 6' off the front of the hood and a stage width 1' outside the A-pillars, full 180 degree sound all in front of you, loud, clean, and dynamic as hell" (paraphrasing and dusting off memories from my 46yo brain:laugh. It's been my goal ever since to recreate as best I could that experience in my car. But knowing more history about the car now (read: controversy) and the fact that I have no plans to compete I don't have a problem at all if this setup doesn't work to achieve my goals and resort to the Audax or JBL mid. Definitely appreciate the input from someone who's been there, done that!


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> The reviews on the AC are pretty amazing. I am pretty sure I have got ribbon fever now.


I'm onto those AST2560's, but where did you find reviews on it (besides the one on PE)?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> You guys are making me teary eyed knowing there are several of you whack jobs out there that like the same kinds of systems that I like.


I was actually shocked you put those cute little Aura Whispers in there after using HLCD's for so long.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> For a tweeter...if you can fit it:
> 
> Aurum Cantus AST2560 Aero Striction Tweeter 276-440
> 
> I have a wholesale account at PE if you are interested...$39 bux cheaper than catalog price. I use a smaller style of this tweeter now and they are fantastic.


Jason- I am going to get the Aurum Cantus, but I will have to do something I really hate doing, sell my beloved JBL 1500Gti. Mostly because I don't have an application for them right now. It took me so long to find those subs and now I have to sell them. I am going to try to sell them to people I work with so I can still visit them (the subs) everyday.

Fish - There is not a lot about the AC, but what there is is outstanding. If I remember I ended up reading some German and French HiFi forums. Extremely technical, I wished I had booked marked them because I know I will have to go back and read them again.

I didn't remember initially but after Jason explained the tweeters were Heil-type air motion transformers, I remembered reading a thread by Gordon Waters of Audio Karma. Gordon uses the Audax's quite a bit in many different systems. 

He explained the need to have a very fast tweeter when using the Audax; "Acceleration factor (magnetic motor strength divided by cone mass, Bl/mms) of like close to 900... whereas the average 6.5" woofer has a hard time getting over 400.". He recommends horns or Heil-type air motion transformer tweeters (ESS). He says the results 'are truly awe inspiring". Not the same tweeter, but the same type.

I am getting me some.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Just a friendly reminder, as you are fondling your classic JBL drivers you may wanna perform "ye olde 9V battery trick" and remember polarity when hooking them up


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Funny you should mention that, it was either the 2204's, or my 2105's (older setup) that were labeled incorrectly.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

mitchyz250f said:


> Funny you should mention that, it was either the 2204's, or my 2105's (older setup) that were labeled incorrectly.


Not labeled incorrectly.... it's the way she rolls.....


http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=241&doctype=3


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> Fish - There is not a lot about the AC, but what there is is outstanding. If I remember I ended up reading some German and French HiFi forums. Extremely technical, I wished I had booked marked them because I know I will have to go back and read them again.
> 
> I didn't remember initially but after Jason explained the tweeters were Heil-type air motion transformers, I remembered reading a thread by Gordon Waters of Audio Karma. Gordon uses the Audax's quite a bit in many different systems.
> 
> ...



Mitch,

Please do all of us a favor & take some pics of the AC's mounted, along with some listening impressions - like the one you posted up about the Audax's .

Another pure midrange that has my attention that has very similar specs to the Audax, EXCEPT it's mms is 1/3 less @ 6 grams, compared to the Audax's 9.17 grams is the B&C 6PEV13.... B&C 6PEV13 6-1/2" Midrange Speaker 294-650.

Upon searching, the B&C doesn't have anywhere near the notoriety or praise the Audax receives. Must be a reason for that.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Sure will fish. 

I am really wondering about the sound difference between the AC and Airborn. I wish somebody had done a AB reviewe of the two, but I could not find anything. Interestingly there seems to be some excitement about the new AMT's on several forums, but not much direct reporting.

Jason, do you know who has heard the compared the two AMT's.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have the tiny Airbones in my car. Jeff Bagby might be one to talk to...he's done some work/measuring of the larger Airbornes. Other than that I wouldn't know someone off of the top of my head who has used both.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I want the thank Jason ‘thehatedguy’ Winslow for turning me onto these AMT tweeters. BTW,Jason, Jeff Bagby has not heard the AC AST3560 or the Airborne RT-5002.

I have been doing some research on these tweeters and want to report back what I found. Generally the AMT's are known for openness, dynamics, sensitivity, and ruggedness compared to ribbon tweeters. I read some discussion about the difficulty of finding a midrange that could keep up. That should be no problem for the JBL 2118, Audax Pr170M0 or other pro audio mids. Their impedance is ruler flat which will make designing a xo for my center channel that much easier.

There is quite bit info on the original ESS AMT tweeters, but those are big and very expensive and not applicable in cars to any degree. 

The Beyma TPL 150 received high praise universally but is very expensive.

I could find almost no reviews on the larger Airborne AMT RT-5002. I did find some information on the much smaller tweeter that Jason is using, the Airborne RT-20021 and it was well liked. I would guess the size without the face plate to be 1” x 1” x 3/4” 89 db and 4 ohm..

I did find some info on the Aurum Cantus AST2560 and was liked by all who had heard and tested it. No negative reviews and a ‘field’ replaceable ribbon. Most reviewer say it can be crossed 2000-2500Hz successfully. If you remove the face plate it is 3 3/8” x 2 3/8” x ¾”. So small enough for sail panels, doors, pillars… At 95db and 4ohm it should work well in my application with 30-50 watts/ch from a SoundStream D60 or D100. 

This post from Pete Schumacher ® at Tech Talk summarizes most of what I have read pretty well;

“We measured the AC and it performed great down to 2KHz. Probably work LR4 at 1800Hz with ease. The AMTs are a lot more rugged than most ribbons, but have a very dynamic quality matched by very few, if any, dome tweeters because there's so much surface area at work.

They would be my choice of a high end tweeter next to the RAAL (very high performance _AND EXPENSIVE_ ribbon tweeter-Mitch).

Can't say I've seen the Airborne (RT-5002-mitch) variant, but the smaller Airborne AMT is a pretty darn nice little tweeter.”


So I will be getting a pair of the AC AST2560s for my sides and likely crossing at [email protected] to the Audax's and the Airborne RT-20021 for my center channel crossing at [email protected] to the JBL 104H-2.

Now if somebody would buy my JBL 1500GTI's in the classified I could get on with this.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for some more info on those AC AST2560's Mitch!

I have a couple questions (for anyone that may have answers) though, since Aurum Cantus hasn't responded to my email I sent a couple weeks ago.

1) Enclosure - I'm assuming a sealed enclosure would be best for a vehicle with these installed in the sails/pillars. How much rear clearance would an AST need in order to keep reflections to a minimum? What's some suitable material to put inside the enclosure (polyfill, insulation, foam)?

2) Faceplate - What are some mounting options with the faceplate removed?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The "enclosure" can be something as simple as cutting a hole in the baffle to flush mount them and then putting a piece of wood behind that hole.

http://meniscusaudio.com/images/er4.pdf

The ones I have in the sail panels are flushed into the panel and glued from the back. The one in the center uses a chopped up faceplate to get it snug with the Neo-8S.

Some data on the big AC AMT:

An information roundup for larger AMTs - AVS Forum


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I wanted to throw up these pictures of my JBL 2204's in the rear quarters of my RSX. I used subwoofer carpet to cover the fiberglassed panel. The carpet was easy to work with, hid my mistakes and stuck really good using 3M spray adhesive. The grill was a Partsexpress 15" grill that I cut the mesh out of using a router epoxyed to a PVC frame with 4 magnets. The magnets stuck to the 4 screws that held the quarter panel rigidly to the speaker. Then covered with black grill cloth.

Sounds easy. It wasn't.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That's so badassed...


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Agreed... 

Kelvin


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Shucks, almost makes me want to do a build thread.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Yeah, I have a similar arrangement, VERY similar, but my rear speakers do something entirely different.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I tried to make my whole system as stealth as possible. The front door speakers are behind the stock panels.

Here is a pic of my JBL 104H-2 Center Channel and my rear surround Peerless TG9's. 

Hopefully I will have the Aurum Cantus is my sail panels soon.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> Hopefully I will have the Aurum Cantus is my sail panels soon.


Please post some pics of these as well. Do you plan on taking them out of the face plates?

Oh, and nice work above.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I will remove them from the face plates and install them in 'new and improved (bigger) sail panels.

It will be 2-3 months before I can begin work.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Jason - I am torn here between the AMT's and a horn tweeter. I might go with your original recommendation of the Beyma CP21F, since I have an extra pair laying around. 

Will they play to 3K?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My CP-21Fs in my home system are crossed at 5k first order. 3k on a steep slope could be possible...maybe, I think. I do like those tweeters.

A DE5 on a small horn could do it too.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I think I will try the DE5.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Subscribed. More research material.


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## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

I have a quick question for the guys running 2204H's... Is the required mounting depth really only 4-3/4" (from the bottom to the underside of the mounting flange)? I ask because some manufacturers seem to measure depth differently than others, and I've been considering using these in my car but my mounting depth is limited to about 4-7/8", and using a spacer ring is not an option - I'm dealing with very tight clearances.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Did you find some 2204s?

I can measure my 2118s to see which way JBL is measuring those if that would help.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

those JBL designs are pretty shallow, as most are. Would not surprise me.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

grrrr, I can't find the service manual for the 2204, I can find a manual for everything that contained it 

The service sheet will have the drawings.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My 2118 is 3 7/8ths from the top of the flange to the bottom of the speaker and 3 9/16ths from the bottom of the flange to the bottom of the speaker...as best I can tell.

The spec sheet has their depth listed as 3 7/8ths. Likely the 2204s are measured the same way.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> My 2118 is 3 7/8ths from the top of the flange to the bottom of the speaker and 3 9/16ths from the bottom of the flange to the bottom of the speaker...as best I can tell.
> 
> The spec sheet has their depth listed as 3 7/8ths. Likely the 2204s are measured the same way.


Pro Audio drivers are usually measured that way too. Total height of the driver... 

Kelvin


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## gfbl (Nov 26, 2008)

oldie but goldie, great thread


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## The real Subzero (Apr 13, 2010)

I have been wanting to put the entire JBL 4312 driver set in my car. I would put the JBL 2213H in the doors and the mids and tweets up in the apilars


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## gfbl (Nov 26, 2008)

did you finish ?how did it turn out?


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## corcraft (Nov 16, 2010)

How low are you guys playing the 2118h ib in doors? 80hz too much to ask out of them?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

corcraft said:


> How low are you guys playing the 2118h ib in doors? 80hz too much to ask out of them?


Old thread : new answer to new question 

80hz will destroy that speaker unless you only give it 10w 

80hz with a 48db crossover should be good for about 40w 

I've played with that diver a ton and it really wants to be crossed at about 250hz 

You can shave by at 150hz with a 24db slope and get good power to it 
But it plain sounds better crossed higher. 250-300hz and up that is the best sounding speaker (next to the 8g40) I've ever heard. And the best sounding speaker I've ever heard with jbl compression drivers to go with them.

They just aren't meant to get much below 200hz in a door
Give it a good enclosure and you can get down to about 100 but the box will do it because the box ringing will make that sound the 250hz crossover would still be an order. 

Imho 250hz 12db is just right or you will screw up that driver. It barely has 3mm xmax and out of the gap its nonlinear distortion jumps up pretty bad.

Best of luck


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## corcraft (Nov 16, 2010)

So about a half cube ported would probably be best bet huh. My car peaks like crazy at 80 anyways.

Thanks for the input, I'm glad to hear from someone who has some seat time playing with the driver. I copied this from another site and actually the member who posted it was asking "how is this possible " because like you say they don't play low. I didn't quote a name everything below I copied and pasted. I'm just posting for insight and hopefully discussion.


This is what Mark Eldrige's wrote about seting up the 2118:
"Sealed or ported. Either one will need about 0.5 cubic foot if possible. Generally, keep them between ~70 HZ and 2.5 kHz. Lower is possible, but be careful, as they are not designed to be played really low with a lot of power applied. I ran mine down to around 45 Hz, but was very careful with power, and used 48 dB/octave slopes. The 2118, in my opinion, is the best sounding midbass driver I've ever used. Incredible transient behavior, very efficient, and blends well with a horn, or conventional driver system."


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

corcraft said:


> So about a half cube ported would probably be best bet huh. My car peaks like crazy at 80 anyways.
> 
> Thanks for the input, I'm glad to hear from someone who has some seat time playing with the driver. I copied this from another site and actually the member who posted it was asking "how is this possible " because like you say they don't play low. I didn't quote a name everything below I copied and pasted. I'm just posting for insight and hopefully discussion.
> 
> ...



Yep. That's about right. At low power it can work. 
Once you get them put in you'll find where you like it and where it works for your install. That why I like a 2nd order filter in a safe area so there wasn't any problems. Especially if you can't see the driver and it's hidden behind a panel. 

But yeah 20w will make quite a bit of sound.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

oabeieo said:


> Old thread : new answer to new question
> 
> 80hz will destroy that speaker unless you only give it 10w
> 
> ...


I think you're exaggerating a bit on the comment regarding 80hz and destroying the driver except on very low power. That driver may only have 3mm of xmax but it has over 15mm of xmech.

I do agree with nearly everything else you said. I ran them IB at 80/24db and I thought they worked fine for the most part. With no filter the driver side started it's roll off at 82-85hz and the passenger side at 70hz. Compared to the 225RS which was 60hz and 40hz. Was there a drastic difference in sound quality between the two in the 80-200hz range? No, not really. 

I don't listen to my music super loud though. 100db full range would easily be the top if not lower.


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## corcraft (Nov 16, 2010)

I listen to mine at 200db.... lol, jk but it sure sounds like it. I'm pretty brutal on mids, I've never blown 1 but it's coming, I tend to push the limits. Ive already bought 2 recone kits for just in case lol. If I have room I will try to do a ported enclosure but if not I'm glad to hear from someone who had the at 80 ib. I need 80-800, i would like lower but I will be satisfied if I can get there somehow. The mids in now roll off at 80 and 100... I'm trying to get lower. I have some x69s otw too if I can repair. They may be a better solution for meantime but I'm a sucker for oldschool. 

Cabin gain should be a friend with these.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

oabeieo said:


> Old thread : new answer to new question
> 
> 80hz will destroy that speaker unless you only give it 10w
> 
> ...


I agree completely.

I've used the 2118's in two cars. In both cases I crossed at 160hz 24db because I had too. At home I crossed tehm at 300Hz 12db. On audioheritage.org which is basically the JBL expert website they say the speaker should not be crossed lower than 300Hz.


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## HulkSmash (May 22, 2011)

I'm guessing the Beyma 8G40 would be a better choice for a two way with horns?


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## corcraft (Nov 16, 2010)

^Erics speakers are coming out in a couple months. If not in a hurry I would wait on those but the beyma is 1 of the best out right now. That's what I'm waiting on but in the meantime I want to try 2118 but only if I can get them down to 80hz. I don't think it's going to happen ib but the more I look at the ported graph the more I want to try, I just need to see how much room I have.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

strohw said:


> I think you're exaggerating a bit on the comment regarding 80hz and destroying the driver except on very low power. That driver may only have 3mm of xmax but it has over 15mm of xmech.
> 
> I do agree with nearly everything else you said. I ran them IB at 80/24db and I thought they worked fine for the most part. With no filter the driver side started it's roll off at 82-85hz and the passenger side at 70hz. Compared to the 225RS which was 60hz and 40hz. Was there a drastic difference in sound quality between the two in the 80-200hz range? No, not really.
> 
> I don't listen to my music super loud though. 100db full range would easily be the top if not lower.


Not exaggerating buddy. 
Out of the gap the nonlinear distortion skyrockets and is quite measurable.
It sounds spitty and garbled.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

HulkSmash said:


> I'm guessing the Beyma 8G40 would be a better choice for a two way with horns?


Very subjective, it's a close match but as far as low end performance yes the beyma walks all over the jbl. But the jbl blends up high to a horn like so so good.

So if someone had a sub that could play with a 1st order filter with fidelity crossed at 60 it would be Audible into the 200s which would be a nice match with the 2118. 

But if the sub woofer system falls short after 60-80 the beyma would be a better choice


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

corcraft said:


> ^Erics speakers are coming out in a couple months. If not in a hurry I would wait on those but the beyma is 1 of the best out right now. That's what I'm waiting on but in the meantime I want to try 2118 but only if I can get them down to 80hz. I don't think it's going to happen ib but the more I look at the ported graph the more I want to try, I just need to see how much room I have.


I can't wait!!!


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