# Tell me I'm not crazy



## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

I have always been captivated with these six speaker super cars. Horns seem like a great way to get the most dynamic and realistic sound. I have spent some time reading patrick batemen's threads on waveguides and was compelled which brought me to here. I was looking through the partsexpress catalog and I saw H10rw 10" round waveguides. It seemed to me that if I coupled them with some selenium d220Ti's I could have a kick ass new frontstage. I already have a 1/3 octave eq and plan on purchasing an active x-over. 
Besides the logistical challenge of installing it there are there any problems you for see besides the usual problems with a kick panel install, (low stage height, feet block sound, etc.)
I would run them on 60 watts.That is with the 10" in my doors and the 2 18" IB.
It should cost around 130 bux for the project. Will these sound better and more dynamic than my alipine component sets? Anyone have any suggestions or ideas?


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

126 views and nothing...Someone want to reach out to a forum noob here and help me out.


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## EclipseChris (Apr 20, 2011)

I think your crazy =P 

Haha i'm just kidding, you lost me at 6 speaker super cars.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

about what crossover frequencies are you planning?


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

EclipseChris said:


> I think your crazy =P
> 
> Haha i'm just kidding, you lost me at 6 speaker super cars.


The old school ones with the horns, midbass, subwoofer. Pro audio processors. Those are the cars I mean. lol my bad



stills said:


> about what crossover frequencies are you planning?


If I get the 10" waveguide I would be crossing them at 1200 hz to 20k. I could play the 10's in the doors to 1200 hz. How much of a problem is this going to cause is what I'm wondering. I have a 1/3 octave eq and am getting an active X-over.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I can't remember exactly where a 10" speaker starts to beam, maybe just below your crossover point of 1200hz. 

Here's a link to a site hosted by Patrick Bateman, who has used waveguides in his car before. Maybe he can help you out. 


Audio Psychosis • Index page

You might also search for some of his threads on here. I'm pretty sure he has a thread or two about waveguides.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Power and Beaming


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

while that may get you crazy loud positioning it for best staging and imaging is ur biggest problem


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

Thank you for all the info. I bought 2 of the 10" waveguides today. I am going to wait on the drivers. I want to look at a couple positioning ideas before I get them. I can always use them for a home project so no problem. I will take a few pics of this madness when they get here. It should fit. I have 2 6.5" in my kicks now and they are gigantic.








That large hole is for my goldwood 10" midbass. I wish I had the balls to cut into the metal of the car. I would get the 12" waveguides and mount them so you have to take off the fender to replace the driver. Deep within the car. Like Earl's car but waveguides instead of subwoofers lol.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

what alpines are those?


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

They are part of the spr-17s comp. set. badgeless drivers ftw


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Will it get louder than your Alpine sets? Yes 
Will it be more dynamic than your Alpine sets? Yes 
Will it sound better than your previous system? Maybe, that depends on how involved you are with positionning and installation. 

I've played with my horns for almost 2 years now and still tuning - never messed with round horns though. So I wouldn't know where to start with the install and aiming. 

You need to do some reading on how dispersion works with round horns - what I mean is you need to find a way to extend the mouth of your round horns like most rectangular horns do with the underdash... 
I'm talking about aiming because your round horn doesn't have the hard-firing angle most rectangular horns do. It's not a bad thing really, you just need to know how to work with your weapon 

Waiting to see install pics 

Kelvin


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Will it get louder than your Alpine sets? Yes
> Will it be more dynamic than your Alpine sets? Yes
> Will it sound better than your previous system? Maybe, that depends on how involved you are with positionning and installation.
> 
> ...


I have been looking for some response graphs for the waveguide. Going to call dayton tues. That will better help me find a position and x-over point. I have read that many people say that horns are capable of playing lower than most recc. Is this due to the fact they have such a steep drop off in freq? The response graph for the d220ti in the h10rw shows a steep drop off after 1k.
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf








You can see the profound roll off really ties my hands. I should have no problem though. The 10" in the door is capable of that although I would rather be using pro drivers to play that high but an 1/3 octave and active x-over will go along the way. 
Any ideas on some generic positions to start out with? People are raving about the off axis response but I can't find a graph to represent it.


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Where and how exactly do you plan to mount 10" waveguides in your car? 

You would be much better off just buying some horn bodies imo. Unless you have some magical place to mount a large waveguide that I am not considering.


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

nubz69 said:


> Where and how exactly do you plan to mount 10" waveguides in your car?
> 
> You would be much better off just buying some horn bodies imo. Unless you have some magical place to mount a large waveguide that I am not considering.


The plan is in the kick's. They would most likey be mounted to a baffle of 1/4 plywood or 1/2" mdf reinforced with resin and matte. That would be attached to the car using metal backets. I plan on bracing the waveguides when I get them using resin and cloth and reinforcing that with some dyaglass. Once they were securely mounted I want to tape the area off to build some fiberglass waveguide extensions. This would create an seamless transition preventing some acoustic problems...I think.
I hear ya about the horn bodies but they cost a fortune and was looking for some alternatives. Unconventional as they might be. I have no magical place. If the stage is too low I could always add a pair of ribbons or planars in the "A"pillars to reinforce and or center the stage, create better imaging, ambience, etc. 
If I had to move from a 6 to a 8 speaker setup it would be all right. lol


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Interesting idea and I would love to hear the finished product but I think it might be a bit unrealistic. A 10" wave guide is much larger then you imagining. You could buy used horn bodies for 100-200 and use the same drivers as you would need for your wave guides. If you have to add planar drivers to the a pillar any savings would be gone. If there were 6" guides I think that you might make it work.


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

nubz69 said:


> Interesting idea and I would love to hear the finished product but I think it might be a bit unrealistic. A 10" wave guide is much larger then you imagining. You could buy used horn bodies for 100-200 and use the same drivers as you would need for your wave guides. If you have to add planar drivers to the a pillar any savings would be gone. If there were 6" guides I think that you might make it work.


I know how big the waveguides are...10"x 5" with 2 additional inches for the driver. I'm not saying they arent gigantic and its not going to cause logistical and engineering challenges .I understand you having resistance to new ideas but It's not about being realistic. It is a project for fun.
I know I won't ceate the perfect sq car. I don't even plan to compete with this car. It just seems like a great way to go down a less traveled path and I haven't seen anyone use these particular waveguides in a car before. 
As far as the planars go I had an idea of purchasing them already. I am not going to spend a fortune for them. They are the dayton PT2C-8. They are 40 bux a piece. They will most likely replace the alpine tweets. They are still to harsh despite 5-8 db attenuation. 
It's okay if I have to spend a little more money to buy some planars. I should've said I wasn't tied to a budget. I have looked for some horn bodies similar to the ID"s but I haven't had much luck. You have a website please put it up. As I said before I can always use the waveguides for a home project if I could get a deal on some bodies. I will be getting the selenium d220Ti's either way.


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Well if this is a what the he'll lets just try it plan, I'm down. I would not use the 10" guides though. Use the 8" wave guides, put them in the kicks, and get a driver that can play as low as possible. 

I have a line on some veritas horn bodies that are hand made copies of the original veritas horn bodies. They are large and take a 1.4"driver. I'm not sure on the price but I don't they would be more then 200, would you be interested? I have a thread elseware on the site with picks, if I remember right


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

nubz69 said:


> Well if this is a what the he'll lets just try it plan, I'm down. I would not use the 10" guides though. Use the 8" wave guides, put them in the kicks, and get a driver that can play as low as possible.
> 
> I have a line on some veritas horn bodies that are hand made copies of the original veritas horn bodies. They are large and take a 1.4"driver. I'm not sure on the price but I don't they would be more then 200, would you be interested? I have a thread elseware on the site with picks, if I remember right


I appreciate the offer but that is a little high for me right now. 
The 10's are a little large. I could always try the 8's it's only another 17 bux. I was just looking for the lowest crossover point possible to marry with the 10's in the doors. If I could find a round 6" waveguide with loading down to 500 I would've bought that in a heartbeat. I have been on the hunt for some. I thought as long as these were only 10 bux a piece I could use them in the meantime.
I am pretty good with fiberglass. I could build some but I have no idea how to shape the throat of the horn. Got to keep doing research lol.


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## kenn_chan (May 27, 2011)

TheScottishBear said:


> The plan is in the kick's. They would most likey be mounted to a baffle of 1/4 plywood or 1/2" mdf reinforced with resin and matte. That would be attached to the car using metal backets. I plan on bracing the waveguides when I get them using resin and cloth and reinforcing that with some dyaglass. Once they were securely mounted I want to tape the area off to build some fiberglass waveguide extensions. This would create an seamless transition preventing some acoustic problems...I think.
> I hear ya about the horn bodies but they cost a fortune and was looking for some alternatives. Unconventional as they might be. I have no magical place. If the stage is too low I could always add a pair of ribbons or planars in the "A"pillars to reinforce and or center the stage, create better imaging, ambience, etc.
> If I had to move from a 6 to a 8 speaker setup it would be all right. lol


No you are crazy  ...... by the time you get done with fabricating and extra ribbons or planar's you could have bought a set of image dynamics, or USD's and got what you were looking ofr for less, with less effort.... but it will be a fun project to play with though, and thats mostly why most people do things like this... to tinker


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

TheScottishBear said:


> I appreciate the offer but that is a little high for me right now.
> The 10's are a little large. I could always try the 8's it's only another 17 bux. I was just looking for the lowest crossover point possible to marry with the 10's in the doors. If I could find a round 6" waveguide with loading down to 500 I would've bought that in a heartbeat. I have been on the hunt for some. I thought as long as these were only 10 bux a piece I could use them in the meantime.
> I am pretty good with fiberglass. I could build some but I have no idea how to shape the throat of the horn. Got to keep doing research lol.


Ken is right but if you want to do this here is really the only way I see it working. You would need a 6" or 8" wave guide, put it in a kick pod, and cross it over at 2k-2.5k depending on your driver. They are not designed to play down to 500hz. If you can get the 6" waveguides you might be able to squeeze them into your current kick pods to play with them. Since they are no longer sold by parts express they may be a bit hard to find.

If you do this post up some pics for us to see I am sure a lot of people would be really curious to know how this worked out for you.


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## kenn_chan (May 27, 2011)

nubz69 said:


> Ken is right but if you want to do this here is really the only way I see it working. You would need a 6" or 8" wave guide, put it in a kick pod, and cross it over at 2k-2.5k depending on your driver. They are not designed to play down to 500hz. If you can get the 6" waveguides you might be able to squeeze them into your current kick pods to play with them. Since they are no longer sold by parts express they may be a bit hard to find.
> 
> If you do this post up some pics for us to see I am sure a lot of people would be really curious to know how this worked out for you.


Yes I was being a little flippant with my reply, the 6" might work. having never used the wave guides would be interested in how it turns out....maybe I should stop by there and check them out when you are done.......oops still in japan...forgot :laugh: 

But in all reality where would you then fit your Mids? in the doors? not quite sure what would keep up with that with space limitations. How efficient are the 6" models to start with? I have asked more questions than have been answered but these are all considerations.

cheers

Ken


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

kenn_chan said:


> Yes I was being a little flippant with my reply, the 6" might work. having never used the wave guides would be interested in how it turns out....maybe I should stop by there and check them out when you are done.......oops still in japan...forgot :laugh:
> 
> But in all reality where would you then fit your Mids? in the doors? not quite sure what would keep up with that with space limitations. How efficient are the 6" models to start with? I have asked more questions than have been answered but these are all considerations.
> 
> ...


There is the rub. I have been looking for a waveguide that would play much lower than 2.5. That would eliminate the need for a mid and I could just raise the x-over point for the 10" in the doors. The problem is that if I use my alpines there is no hope of them keeping up. They are 87db 1w/1m (weaksauce.) 
I could fit both an 8" waveguide and the 6" alpine. in the kicks. The math works lol. But the sensitivity difference between the 2 would require an L pad and massive eq'ing to say the least. Would this be easier than looking in vain for some cheap horn bodies. The waveguide can replace the lame tweets that came with the comp. set and use the drivers as I normally would. So a 3 way sytem then. lol


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## kenn_chan (May 27, 2011)

TheScottishBear said:


> There is the rub. I have been looking for a waveguide that would play much lower than 2.5. That would eliminate the need for a mid and I could just raise the x-over point for the 10" in the doors. The problem is that if I use my alpines there is no hope of them keeping up. They are 87db 1w/1m (weaksauce.)
> I could fit both an 8" waveguide and the 6" alpine. in the kicks. The math works lol. But the sensitivity difference between the 2 would require an L pad and massive eq'ing to say the least. Would this be easier than looking in vain for some cheap horn bodies. The waveguide can replace the lame tweets that came with the comp. set and use the drivers as I normally would. So a 3 way sytem then. lol



I'll bet you a georgia coffee that that L Pad gets hot enough to roast marshmellows with :laugh:

ken


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

kenn_chan said:


> I'll bet you a georgia coffee that that L Pad gets hot enough to roast marshmellows with :laugh:
> 
> ken


This is why I asked the experts. I am more or less picking things up as I go. Reading about horns and waveguides is like learning a brand new hobby. Very deep and complicated.
Is the heat from the Lpad based on wattage? Would eq'ing be enough?


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## kenn_chan (May 27, 2011)

TheScottishBear said:


> This is why I asked the experts. I am more or less picking things up as I go. Reading about horns and waveguides is like learning a brand new hobby. Very deep and complicated.
> Is the heat from the Lpad based on wattage? Would eq'ing be enough?


_SB, I have been out of the industry since 1998 ish and am just getting back in._ I am making the assumption that the Lpad has not changed, *somebody please correct me if I am wrong as I don't want to give bum scoop*.

An Lpad is nothing more than a giant potentiometer (pot, rheostat etc.) it works by adding resistance to the load of the amp which results in heat at the Lpad itself the more it has to cut, the hotter it will get, the biggest i ever saw was only rated up to a maximum of 100 watts, if that was constant or peak i do not know. 

If you are using active crossovers with multiple amps then you should not need an Lpad. If you plan on running passive crossovers to run the entire system off of one or two amps then your options are such:


build your crossover, with an attenuation circuit built in (assuming you know how much you need to attenuate it)


use an Lpad after the fact.


Please remember the Lpad can affect the crossover as it is changing the impedance of the (speaker) you are using, it is a brute force method, and not nearly as accurate


I thought I read that you were using an active crossover, if so then you would not need an Lpad. You could just adjust at the aplifier, or cross over 

ken


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

Update: Did a ton of research. looking back on my old posts makes me feel like a damn fool Ftl. lol After all that it is easier to get a pair of ID mini's so that is what I am after. The car is in a rebuild right now. 
The plan is to get the mini-bodies and use a pair of 9500's. Here is the mid I want to pair with it. It should fit in my door perfectly and is shallower than my last ones. 
Eminence Delta-10A 10" Midrange Driver 8 Ohm 290-412
I would've used the goldwoods but at 90w/m I would need a ton of wattage to them. Over 300 easy. You can see the Eminence is 98.8w/m. An appreciable difference to be sure. I think 200 watts should be sufficient for each. 
This new frontstage should have more than enough output to match my wall with 3 18" on 2k watts. I know that makes you guys cringe but this rebuild is more for just demos and fun. I plan on doing a more sq oriented install next summer in my expedition. If you guys have any questions or concerns let me know. I still haven't purchased anything yet.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm curious what crossover points you're planning on using between the three drivers (horn, midbass, sub)?

Are you dead-set on using a 3-way system?


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

fish said:


> I'm curious what crossover points you're planning on using between the three drivers (horn, midbass, sub)?
> 
> Are you dead-set on using a 3-way system?


I was going to cross the horns over at 1k. The mids will run from 80hz and up. The subwoofer wall will be for fun and demos but for the most part the gain on them will be verrry low. I just wanted to have it. lol I would like to play to the fs of the 10" in the doors but there would be some cancellation with the wall. I don't suppose that matters given the volume of the demos when the car will be done (mid 40's)
I know that I can't get a true sq setup with my plans but with a 30 band eq I should be able to find a happy middle ground. I wish I could afford a ms8 or a bitone. Does that much signal processing seem unnecessary given my build?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Have you considered the fullsize horns? You can safely cross them at 800hz, & have a better chance of keeping those 10's from beaming in your doors. IIRC, a 10" cone begins to beam somewhere in the 800-1khz area. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  The 1k crossover on the minis may be a tad low, most cross around 1.2-1.6k I believe. Especially since you're going for a higher output system.

Here's some other pro audio 10's for you to look at...

US Speaker - 10" Speakers - 10" speakers by Eminence Speaker, JBL, EV, RCF, Beyma, Peavey, Celestion, P.Audio, Ampeg, Crate, Jensen, Fane and Pyle. 10" bass speakers & 10" guitar speakers. Find the right 10" woofer here.

I have the Faital Pro W10N4-200 in my doors playing from 63-250hz.

If you're more just into having fun with this system then an outboard processor might be overkill, but that's for you to decide.  You already have 24db xovers on your amps & a 30 band EQ, correct?


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

fish said:


> Have you considered the fullsize horns? You can safely cross them at 800hz, & have a better chance of keeping those 10's from beaming in your doors. IIRC, a 10" cone begins to beam somewhere in the 800-1khz area. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  The 1k crossover on the minis may be a tad low, most cross around 1.2-1.6k I believe. Especially since you're going for a higher output system.
> 
> Here's some other pro audio 10's for you to look at...
> 
> ...


I forgot to check that website. Great driver selection. I chose the eminence because it matches closely to the 10" I had in the door before. That just wasn't sensitive enough 1w/1m. 
Is there a benefit to the larger horn bodies? I just thought the minis would be easier to install. I was going to pick up a kicker 30 band. That should be adequate for my needs. The amps have the 24 db xovers, yes. MBQuart


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

TheScottishBear said:


> I forgot to check that website. Great driver selection. I chose the eminence because it matches closely to the 10" I had in the door before. That just wasn't sensitive enough 1w/1m.
> Is there a benefit to the larger horn bodies? I just thought the minis would be easier to install. I was going to pick up a kicker 30 band. That should be adequate for my needs. The amps have the 24 db xovers, yes. MBQuart



The mounting dimensions are about the same? I feel your pain on trying to find drivers that are close to physical spec. 

The minis are considerably smaller than the fullsize, but at the expense of a higher crossover frequency, plus the minis have more top end sparkle.


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

Yeah the eminence are a fraction of an inch smaller. It sounds like full size would be a better bet. I could always eq a little sparkle into them. hehehe Has anyone used a ribbon like from LCY as a supertweeter with horns? Would it even be necessary? Just curioius


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

So I pulled the trigger on some full-size horns today. Money wasn't right until now. I am rebuilding the car as we speak. It is turning into a demo beast. 3 18" in a sealed wall on 1500 watts. The midbass are on 240 watts a piece.
I wasn't too hot on stuffing a bunch of component sets in the car and I liked the idea of adding these to a spl system. It seemed easier and a little cheaper believe it or not. I can reduce the speakers from 19 to 7 lol. 
Still up in the air on a driver for them. It is between the 2500ti's and the 220ti's. Any opinions?


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## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

I got my horns...

















There wasn't any specific hardware that came with them other than the brackets. Is there a screw you guys prefer when attaching them? I know I need to pre-drill and avoid making holes in the mouth of the horn. 
I chose the fullsize to the center console in my Malibu and there ability to cross lower than the mini's. I still don't know which CD to pair with it though. I appreciate the fact I am some sort of heretic due to my midbass size and substage but I still need some help.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

I have always used 10-24 flat head screws to attach the brackets to the horn. Drilling through the horn mouth is ok just keep the scre somewhat flush, it's not as critical as you would think. Some people use sheet metal screws and speed clips.

Eric


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

TheScottishBear said:


> I have always been captivated with these six speaker super cars. Horns seem like a great way to get the most dynamic and realistic sound. I have spent some time reading patrick batemen's threads on waveguides and was compelled which brought me to here. I was looking through the partsexpress catalog and I saw H10rw 10" round waveguides. It seemed to me that if I coupled them with some selenium d220Ti's I could have a kick ass new frontstage. I already have a 1/3 octave eq and plan on purchasing an active x-over.


I've been pursuing the same goal for nearly fifteen years now. At first I tried the 'conventional' horn setup in the car. Basically horns under the dash, and hi-efficiency midranges in the kicks. This solution is dynamic, but the transition from the horns to the midrange was always problematic. Also, the upper treble was harsh. At the time, I didn't know why. (Now I do.)

With a bit of study, I discovered why guys like Mark Eldridge used extremely large horns and compression drivers in their cars. *It's because you need a very large horn to go low, but you also need a very powerful compression driver to go high.* This is critical; it basically means that if you want a horn to go low AND high at the same time, it's going to be big, and it's going to be expensive. The Altecs that Eldridge and Clark used cost about $1000 used. TAD makes a nice alternative that costs about $2000 a pair. *This is important - it means that if you think you'll get world class sound with a cheap compression driver, think again.*









The Unity horns that I use are a way to 'cheat.' The Unity horn is basically a horn loading a horn. (Those are Paul Spencer's btw, his documentation is way better than mine.)

The Unity allows you to do some things which can't be done with a conventional horn. For instance, the compression driver that I am using is very inexpensive. It was just $45 last year, and is still under $100, despite the neodymium crisis.







The reason that I can get away with such a cheap driver is that it is very very small. This means that I *must* use a xover point that is an octave higher than what you'd use with a B&C DE250 or a Selenium 220ti. *But it has some advantages too.* One of the reasons that conventional horns sound harsh is that large compression drivers have large diaphragms, about four times as large as a dome tweeter. Due to the large surface, the upper frequencies aren't as well behaved as you'd see with a smaller driver. And the Celestion that I am using is very VERY small. I think this is the main reason that it sounds cleaner and better behaved in the top octave.

The Celestion is no slouch in the lower octaves either, but in my Unity horns I have midranges that 'cut in' from 300hz two about 1500hz.

So that's about two and a half octaves from the midranges, and about three and a half octaves from the tweeter. So we're covering six octaves with a single horn. (Well, in reality, it's TWO horns, but they're connected.)

If you want to mess around with these, check out my forum*. I finished another one last Friday, and I believe it may be the first time I've been able to exceed the performance of my on-dash Unity horns. The on-dash horn that was documented in that thread on diyma in 2009 was about as good as I've ever heard in a car. But it was ugly and dangerous, so I've been trying to figure out how to replicate that with an underdash horn for years now.

As you can imagine, it's been tough. The key is using the car itself as part of the horn; if you do that it's not difficult to get a horn down to 300hz or even 200hz.


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