# Jon Whitledge was interviewed by San Diego City Beat magazine



## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm pleased to share with you that a wonderful article about me and my Magic Bus appeared in last week's issue of San Diego City Beat. I hope you enjoy reading my responses to Kinsee Morlan's interesting questions. Please note that the beautiful photo used in the article was taken by Dennis Reiter of Chrome Digital (www.chromedigital.com). Here's the link:

www.sdcitybeat.com/sandiego/blog-378-the-magic-bus.html
 

*jon w. - PLEASE SIGN UP AS A SIGNATURE VENDOR IF YOU WISH TO PROMOTE YOUR WEBSITE ON OUR FORUM.*

*jon w. - PLEASE SIGN UP AS A SIGNATURE VENDOR IF YOU WISH TO PROMOTE YOUR WEBSITE ON OUR FORUM.*

*jon w. - PLEASE SIGN UP AS A SIGNATURE VENDOR IF YOU WISH TO PROMOTE YOUR WEBSITE ON OUR FORUM.*


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## gus1111 (Apr 17, 2009)

I would like to congratulate you Jon W. for your limitless efforts in promoting our wonderful hobby of hi-fi sound reproduction in a vehicle...
We need to open people's eyes(ears)to hi-end car audio...
Please, keep sharing your "magic bus" with as many fellows as possible...
It deserves all the publicity it gets. One of a kind...


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

words escape me.


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

I don't know how to say this politely, but you are the most shameless self-promoter I have ever seen.


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## thewatusi (Feb 1, 2011)

These threads are nothing more than spam IMO. 

I don't doubt you're extremely talented and have built a great vehicle, but at the end of the day you aren't contributing anything to this forum. 

Why not post a build log? Or at the very least an equipment list and some pictures? All you're doing is promoting your "Magic Bus" listening sessions.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

The first thing I notice when I get in the Magic Bus is it's hot. 


Jon,

Congratulations on getting noticed for your very hard work.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

I've got a magic toilet if anybody want to try it out. Only $.50 per plop


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## AndyInOC (Jul 22, 2008)

I know my favorite part of this hobby is having people piss all over MY hard work.

Never heard the bus and in all likliehood probably never will, but congratulations for a job well done.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

again man, please post some pictures or something.


and i urge you to compete in IASCA or MECA car audio sound quality competitions to legitimize your conclusions that your van is the best mobile audio system. Unless you win, it is not the best. I bet you that there are quite a few competitors and judges that will give you a run for your money sir.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

req said:


> again man, please post some pictures or something.
> 
> 
> and i urge you to compete in IASCA or MECA car audio sound quality competitions to legitimize your conclusions that your van is the best mobile audio system. Unless you win, it is not the best. I bet you that there are quite a few competitors and judges that will give you a run for your money sir.


I believe he competed w the 1st version in Novice/Rookie or maybe even amateur and Won IASCA Finals in like 06 or something


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

thewatusi said:


> These threads are nothing more than spam IMO.
> 
> I don't doubt you're extremely talented and have built a great vehicle, but at the end of the day you aren't contributing anything to this forum.
> 
> Why not post a build log? Or at the very least an equipment list and some pictures? All you're doing is promoting your "Magic Bus" listening sessions.


His build is well documented. Can't get through to his site at the moment. I hoped to post a link. Tons of info if you Google his name.

No doubt his vehicle must sound great. It certainly would not be the choice of vehicle for most.

"Shameless self promoter" may be a bit harsh-maybe not.

I read somewhere that he was organizing a sort of get together to honor his creation. Some big-wig would be available to critique auto sound systems for some outrageous fee like a hundred or so dollars per half hour. That really put me off. I wonder if anybody paid.


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

Mic10is said:


> I believe he competed w the 1st version in Novice/Rookie or maybe even amateur and Won IASCA Finals in like 06 or something


Having the sponsors he has, he would have had to have been in Semi-pro at the very least...


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

DanMan said:


> "Shameless self promoter" may be a bit harsh-maybe not.


I dont think it is to be honest. He comes on here JUST to post crap about himself and his van. People ask questions and he rarely comes back to answer them. He isn't here to help the board/fellow members or learn himself, he is here just to promote himself/his van.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> I believe he competed w the 1st version in Novice/Rookie or maybe even amateur and Won IASCA Finals in like 06 or something


But not with this van Mic. Until he competes wth the big dogs he is just spouting assumptions.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

There are people with great sounding cars that don't compete. 

Jon is very knowledgeable about Audio and has gained respect in an area we only wish we could attain "Home Audio" Audiophiles do not consider Car Audio even worth considering and here Jon is getting noticed and praised by the experts. I have heard the Magic Bus and in my opinion Jon has accomplished something to be proud of.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

okay. so you heard it and it was nice. 

why cant he post pictures on here, or list any information other than some interview that explains nothing about the system other than its better than any other mobile stereo ever and should be in a museum.

personally, if i went to an IASCA or MECA show, and this guy started talking like that. i would laugh at him and walk away.

humble yourself a little John, take the ***** off the pedestal. your just keeping it up there on that pedestal. just take it down john, take it down.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I do agree with you about Jon, but I don't think he gets out much (Lab Rat) so his people skills might be a little lacking.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

His website details his system. Lots of pretty pictures. Just a click away.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

1. Opinions are one thing. But the personal attacks are absolutely unnecessary, and are much too prevalent on this site and serve so meaningful purpose. How about considering how much more forthcoming Jon (or anyone else) might be if you asked nicely rather than attack their integrity? 

2. Do not presume that because a vehicle "wins" a competition that it reproduces music in a manner that most would consider enjoyable, much less realistic. Remember that competition results are in the hands of individuals who, notwithstanding whatever guidelines are in place, have their own biases and physical attributes or limitations that affect how they hear and perceive things, and their decisions are, for the most part, subjective. Only YOU can determine whether the Magic Bus is worthy of the accolades that others have given it. And, perhaps Jon has reached the conclusion that given the music listening, recording, electronics design, acoustic design, and other relevant experience that he and those who have assisted him in this current iteration of the Magic Bus have in the aggregate, that he does not need some "judge" who could not tell you the difference between a bassoon and an oboe, or a cornet, flugelhorn or trumpet, in a recording, to validate or opine on the sonic merits of his Magic Bus. 

3. I heard the original version of the Magic Bus, and to my ear (which I trust greatly), it did a number of things really well, and fell short in other areas. I can't wait to hear the current version. I hope Jon continues to promote the **** out of the Magic Bus because people whose ears I trust and respect say it's that good and the more people are exposed to realistic reproduction of music the better off all in this hobby will be.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

Phreaxer said:


> I dont think it is to be honest. He comes on here JUST to post crap about himself and his van. People ask questions and he rarely comes back to answer them. He isn't here to help the board/fellow members or learn himself, he is here just to promote himself/his van.


I tend to agree with you. I was playing the devil's advocate, so to speak.

In his defense, his build is so well documented that studying it can't help helping the average diy'er. Average diy'er he is not.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

Phreaxer said:


> I dont think it is to be honest. He comes on here JUST to post crap about himself and his van. People ask questions and he rarely comes back to answer them. He isn't here to help the board/fellow members or learn himself, he is here just to promote himself/his van.


He gave me his home phone number. He spent over two hours on the phone with me one day helping with my system, so much time that I felt I had to let him go because I was taking advantage of him. He offered to let me call again. Is he perfect in the shameless self promotion department?, No obviously not. But I don't think he needs to be insulted, even if he is bragging.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Phreaxer said:


> Having the sponsors he has, he would have had to have been in Semi-pro at the very least...


He did not originally have sponsors with the original Eurovan that started the whole thing


my only real contention with any of the self promotion is the "accolades" which accompany everything.

I'm very curious how many people who have contributed these testimonials have any real experience listening to top SQ vehicles.
Like The editor and Chief from Absolute Sound...etc...

Have they ever heard Mark Elderidge's 4-runner or nascar? or Gary Biggs Regal? or even Buwalda's cars? There is a long list of guys who have built amazing systems and pushed the envelopes of construction/fabrication and design who do not do through this shameless self promotion.

While, there are may be many great sounding vehicles that never compete---to make a statement that it is THE best sounding automobile ever built is rather arrogant IMO
From that perspective I do agree with Andy that if you want to say youre the best---then show up where alot of people can hear it and compare it to other top vehicles.

Anyone remember when Kimbo Slice was the baddest mofo in the backyard and all over the internet? Then he actually started competing and got knocked the F out....


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

Mic10is said:


> Anyone remember when Kimbo Slice was the baddest mofo in the backyard and all over the internet? Then he actually started competing and got knocked the F out....


Hell yeah I do! He was 'the man' in those videos... then he got in the ring with actual fighters and didn't stand a chance. :laugh: I do have to admit though, I love his heart and passion. He never once said he gave up and constantly tried harder and harder to get better. I have to give him the much due respect for that commitment alone.


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

Oh and back on topic, I completely agree with you Mic.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

is Kimbo still fighting?

I don't keep up with that stuff. :/


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> is Kimbo still fighting?
> 
> I don't keep up with that stuff. :/


He's getting away from MMA and going into boxing, a much better fit IMO.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

so i just spent the last two hours reading his entire site and looking at all the pictures.

Audio System Photo Diary

so i totally agree that jon has done quite an awesome job putting together a great system. i think he has documented it very well, even though he did not post it here for some reason even though ive asked a few times, i found it myself - thank you rawdawg). and i am very impressed with the simplicity, of the design and the complicated build procedures. you certainly cant hide money, as tintbox always says.

but the amount of self promotion that he is producing that he is the best since sliced bread perturbs me, because of all the rest of the top audio competitors out there who have systems as good.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/30321-one-badassed-bmw-330-a.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...602-nissan-murano-my-new-comp-family-car.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-taken-myself-sq-tl-version-3-0-500-pics.html

just my two cents. claiming to be the best ever is real arrogant in my book, but i will admit that it is incredibly impressive.

-andy


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

He who speaks without modesty will find it difficult to make his words good.













Confucius


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

req said:


> just my two cents. claiming to be the best ever is real arrogant in my book, but i will admit that it is incredibly impressive.
> 
> -andy


there was another on here that was jsut finishing up their build as I was doing mine... it was great.... I can't remember who it was to save my life.. coulda been a nissan, he's not around much anymore.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

chad said:


> there was another on here that was jsut finishing up their build as I was doing mine... it was great.... I can't remember who it was to save my life.. coulda been a nissan, he's not around much anymore.


Was it Kevin K.?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

michaelsil1 said:


> Was it Kevin K.?


MiloX.. just looked it up Infinity G35, he took his pics down.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

This is one of the best builds I've seen



YouTube - ‪Hybrid Audio @ 2011 CES‬‏


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

req said:


> so i just spent the last two hours reading his entire site and looking at all the pictures.
> 
> Audio System Photo Diary
> 
> ...


No offense at all to the above vehicles you mentioned, but come on man. Really?? You think these are in the same class as John because????? How many of these have you heard (probably NONE)!

So based on that you are simply looking at install as you chief comparison. Lets see:

Of all the installs listed above (except Matt R), how many really incorporated and utilized the best possible conditions for the ultimate in sound quality? They look fantastic and build quality is top notch, but who of those did what was absolutely necessary, no holds barred like John did? Please don't compare apples to oranges when it comes to John's install. If you read all the articles in CA&E, you will see that the thought and detail he went through in the design/installation is second to none. Whether you like how it sounds, that is up to you, but I would love to hear anyone of the above mentioned vehicles (except Matt R) try to show that they had just as much thought and planning to accurate acoustical reproduction as John did. For heavens sake, he bought the van because it measured as the best acoustic platform to start with!

My car would get toasted by Johns van and I would put it up against any of the cars you listed and feel my chance were pretty good. Since you have not heard his van, if you want to say Matt R, Eldridge and Buwalda, then I can see the argument!


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Funny, he did mention that he felt it strange that a lot of guys didn't take the type of vehicle into consideration when building an all out system.

When Jon competed in IASCA Amateur, he went undefeated for the season competing in a Vanagon with all door speakers and horrible path lengths. Every last bit of the system resided no further than a foot past the front seats. Pretty amazing...

Here's a review of Jon's system I wrote back when I was dipping my toes into the Car Audio world.

Carbon Fiber, IASCA & the Dark Side (extremely long) - CARSOUND.COM Forum


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

rawdawg said:


> Funny, he did mention that he felt it strange that a lot of guys didn't take the type of vehicle into consideration when building an all out system.
> 
> When Jon competed in IASCA Amateur, he went undefeated for the season competing in a Vanagon with all door speakers and horrible path lengths. Every last bit of the system resided no further than a foot past the front seats. Pretty amazing...
> 
> ...


undefeated in Amateur but competing against Who?
CA has never been a hotbed or anything close for shows or competitors since the early 90s


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Ooo, snap! We've been sucking for 20 years?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

rawdawg said:


> Ooo, snap! We've been sucking for 20 years?


We suck and have a 2011 World Champion!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

its irrelevant weather or not i have heard this guys van, or any of the cars i have posted above. as far as quality of work is concerned, i believe they all reside in a category above the rest. i agree, this dude spent the time, effort, and tons of money to get where the van is today. i am not dismissing that it is an awesome thing. i am also not dismissing the fact that he spent many hours testing driver placement.

but what i am trying to say is that he can not boast that it is the best thing ever created in the mobile audio lanes, just because. its like if i claimed that i am the best pogo-stick jumper that has ever lived. do you believe that claim just because i have a _sweet pogo stick_, and i claimed it to be so?



all im trying to say, is that the way jon is coming across is kind of offensive me (not because i am in his class, for other reasons), and anyone else that spends time, energy, and money on their own projects of similar caliber. im not trying to put the guy down, im not trying to be a jerk. but when some one comes to my house to hang out, and then tells me that they have the best [insert whatever here] ever, its kind of rude.

there are plenty of other guys who have spent the same kind of money as jon has. some of them did do the work themselves, and some of them most likely paid other people to do it for them. because it errks me to no end when people pay other people for something and then brag about it. (and i applaud you jon if you did do most of it yourself)

so my point is, you seem like you know what you are doing jon. and i think it is awesome, however, i dont believe you should post claims that you have created the best ever. i dont deny that is it great, but in my opinion, you need to tone down the claims that you are the master of this craft above everyone else.

that is all. i apologize if anyone got panties in a twist based on my posts, because thats not what i was after. i just cant believe he can belittle everyone of the top SQ builders with his claims.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

req said:


> its irrelevant weather or not i have heard this guys van, or any of the cars i have posted above. as far as quality of work is concerned, i believe they all reside in a category above the rest. i agree, this dude spent the time, effort, and tons of money to get where the van is today. i am not dismissing that it is an awesome thing. i am also not dismissing the fact that he spent many hours testing driver placement.
> 
> but what i am trying to say is that he can not boast that it is the best thing ever created in the mobile audio lanes, just because. its like if i claimed that i am the best pogo-stick jumper that has ever lived. do you believe that claim just because i have a _sweet pogo stick_, and i claimed it to be so?
> 
> ...


Professional Pogo Stick, lol. 
I wasn't aware of pogo sticking being something you could be come a professional at. 
Do they have pogo stick school?
I've got my Ph.d from *B*ounce *U*niversity
I did my thesis on bouncing till the sun comes up.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

hahahahha. i was hoping some one would see the sarcasm in that post 

again. im not trying to demote jon, because what he did was awesome (and expensive). i just dont believe he should belittle the rest of the car audio competitors. thats all


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

goodstuff said:


> Professional Pogo Stick, lol.
> I wasn't aware of pogo sticking being something you could be come a professional at.
> Do they have pogo stick school?
> I've got my Ph.d from *B*ounce *U*niversity
> I did my thesis on bouncing till the sun comes up.


No less ridiculous than being a "professional car stereo guy"


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cajunner said:


> that can't hold a candle to Jon and his van!


I didn't say it did, but we get no respect here on the West Coast and have some mighty fine Cars and the Magic Bus.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

req said:


> its irrelevant weather or not i have heard this guys van, or any of the cars i have posted above. as far as quality of work is concerned, i believe they all reside in a category above the rest. i agree, this dude spent the time, effort, and tons of money to get where the van is today. i am not dismissing that it is an awesome thing. i am also not dismissing the fact that he spent many hours testing driver placement.
> 
> but what i am trying to say is that he can not boast that it is the best thing ever created in the mobile audio lanes, just because. its like if i claimed that i am the best pogo-stick jumper that has ever lived. do you believe that claim just because i have a _sweet pogo stick_, and i claimed it to be so?
> 
> ...


Being that it is HIS opinion haw can you argue against it? Why should we listen to YOUR opinion that it's not. I've heard the van. It sounds ****ing incredible. It does things I've never heard other cars do. It creates space, and has a level of detail I've NEVER experienced in a home or car before. Does it need more dynamics and volume capability to really sound "real"? Absolutely, but it's still, from about 300Hz and up, the most accurate car I've heard. I can't say anything about the midbass or subbass because we didn't listen to anything that really stressed those ranges nor at a volume level that required much effort from them. Is it perfect? No system, home or car, is, but this is really close. 

It might come across as arrogance but having spoken to Jon on a few occasions I'll tell you he's actually very humble. I think you should meet Jon and listen to the van before you even begin to call him arrogant.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

again, im not trying to argue or cause problems. 

it is my opinion that he is coming across offensive to me because he is belittling the rest of the top guys with his statements.

he is stating it as fact that he is the best.

that is all i am trying to say here.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

And every other top dog would say THEIRS is the best. They just don't have the balls to put it in print because they don't want to offend anyone. 

I'm wondering why you care so much if it's offensive to these other "top dogs". Is it REALLY that big a deal for you?


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

they dont say theirs is the best for a reason. has nothing to do with having balls - its just not a way to hold yourself. and no, its not a huge deal. thats why im not arguing about it - im just stating again - its my opinion.

if you think otherwise, then thats completely fine. i just think he shouldnt act as such. its just my two cents.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I love you guys.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Stream of consciousness...

In real life, Jon is soft spoken, articulate and quite humble. During T.H.E. HOME show, there was a potential customer willing to ship his NSX across country and drop big shiny coins for an install. Instead of taking the job, Jon referred the gentleman to Matt Roberts as he felt geographically, that would work out for the better. He also discussed certain concepts and techniques that were intentionally not detailed on his website. That sounds like a nice guy to me.

Concerning the bass in the Magic Bus, it's pretty weird. You can turn around and stare directly at the woofers and still get upfront bass. All you see is woofers moving. I suspect it's a combination of the uncoupled enclosure and the pair of huge Helmholtz Resonators. And probably the crap load of deadening he has. I remember him saying the system is about 3-4000 lbs. above and beyond the stock vehicle weight.

And yes, that is a pretty sweet pogo stick...


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

again, im not trying to say i dont like this guy or his van.

if he is soft spoken and humble in real life, thats how he should act whenever and wherever. 

im just saying - he posted and printed that he is the best ever. i think thats over the top. if you dont agree, then whatever. 

no big deal lol.



cajunner said:


> if a guy says he has the world's biggest pecker, is it offensive too?


if he calls it a _pecker_, then it must not be that big to begin with lol.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

rawdawg said:


> Stream of consciousness...
> 
> In real life, Jon is soft spoken, articulate and quite humble. During T.H.E. HOME show, there was a potential customer willing to ship his NSX across country and drop big shiny coins for an install. Instead of taking the job, Jon referred the gentleman to Matt Roberts as he felt geographically, that would work out for the better. He also discussed certain concepts and techniques that were intentionally not detailed on his website. That sounds like a nice guy to me.
> 
> ...


Agreed about the bass. I have done that exact thing and it's just as you said. However, it's not real. There is ZERO impact with anything we listened to. Real bass from real instruments is felt. That's really the only issue I have with his system. With the amps he's got and the power available I'm sure the dynamics issue is simply a gain twist away.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Agreed about the bass. I have done that exact thing and it's just as you said. However, *it's not real*. There is ZERO impact with anything we listened to. Real bass from real instruments is felt. That's really the only issue I have with his system. With the amps he's got and the power available I'm sure the dynamics issue is simply a gain twist away.


I've heard others say that as well about the Magic Bus, when I listened to it I thought the Bass was accurate.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Accurate for what? Not live music. I'm not even talking amplified either. If you get a change try something with organs or hell, even a piano. The body is missing. It SOUNDS right but it doesn't FEEL right. If that makes sense.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Makes perfect sense to me.

I call it home audiophile bass.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ agreed.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

We did play some Pipe Organ Music and the whole Van was *Vibrating* .


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

quality_sound said:


> Agreed about the bass. I have done that exact thing and it's just as you said. However, it's not real. There is ZERO impact with anything we listened to. Real bass from real instruments is felt. That's really the only issue I have with his system. With the amps he's got and the power available I'm sure the dynamics issue is simply a gain twist away.


Could this be due to the B-weighting he used? I tried that in my car and the bass did sound very natural and acurate but I couldn't feel it.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

It could be that wussy music that SQ guys are so fond of listening to. 

I like to call it that Esotar/Ultimo bass... transparent, ethereal and lush but not Hood happy.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Surprisingly, a LOT. Of SQ music has great bass. "Audiophiles" just don't want to feel it for some reason unless they're watching a movie.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

whats the best 10 for 'esotar' bass that WILL slam my hood? ?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

also if fights and sports can be 'fixed' so can car audio decisions.

blindfolded judging is the only way to go imo, and stepping up into a van is very different to sitting down into a miata, so its also hard to do right.




*if* people really have to compete in an area (music) that is meant to be food for the soul .....

whos the best guitarist in the world? whos the best that ever lived? drummer? who makes the best bass cab? best distortion peddal? best pizza?


stupidness........

and a van is not a car.

this is car audio right? im sure we could do a lot with a semi trailer, speakers up front, recliner at the back.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

Mr sixty and down,

I agree about the point of who is to say who is the best. That's kind of where I was going when I was talking about how he claims to be the best.



But we call it car audio, it should be mobile audio really.

Continue.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

What if I tore out the interior put a seat in the middle wasn't street legal and had to bring the car on a trailer?


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

It is still mobile, is it not?


You can answer your own question here lol.

What if it was in a blimp?

As long as its portable and not static, and runs off 12~14 volts then its mobile audio.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Jon was a sweetheart when I got my demo he showed me where his system fell short we started with a Contrabass it is the largest String Bass and I said your Bass sounds like it is on steroids he agreed and told me what the instrument was it fell short of what it was supposed to do imaging wise, but he told me it does worse in other Cars. I then had him play a single Violin and it fell way short, but in all fairness people spend millions on home audio and fall short as well. We then listened to some Pipe Organ Music and the Magic Bus shined with those 16Hz notes and Vibrated like crazy. I don't think the Magic Bus sounds any better than a Mid Priced Home System, but that in itself says a lot.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

michaelsil1 said:


> What if I tore out the interior put a seat in the middle wasn't street legal and had to bring the car on a trailer?


Like those guys that pulled the front seats out of an old ass LeMans? It was still driveable from the back seats but the steering column swung out of the way and had passenger-facing Oz Audio components and Oz Audio 300Ls.


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## gus1111 (Apr 17, 2009)

This thread took an interesting turn...
As I have already mentioned, the "Magic Bus" is the best promoter(publicity wise)for our passion/hobby! Period...
Everyone sees things differently(from a different angle)
The magic bus is one of a kind, stands more apart than any other vehicle/stereo and it's not something you see every day...


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

and thats awesome.

but i still cant agree that he is the bestest evarr in this histories of the evarness.

that is all


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## gus1111 (Apr 17, 2009)

req said:


> and thats awesome.
> 
> but i still cant agree that he is the bestest evarr in this histories of the evarness.
> 
> that is all


I have to agree that we are talking about subjective things(SQ)and one cannot say this is the best ever and this is the second best ever...

Like Drag racing. If you do 5 seconds and the record holder did 4.9 secs then you can confidently say that you are second best and not the best ever(so far)...


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

well im glad we cleared that up hahha.


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

Most of you are aware that I don’t post very much on this forum. Generally, I post things that I believe are significant and helpful to those who care to read my posts and links. And although topics about my Magic Bus and I have appeared in more than 45 threads on this forum, I have never posted a rebuttal, especially to the negative comments directed toward me or my work. 

But after seeing the reactions to my recent post about a magazine article, I feel I must provide corrections to the misunderstandings, misinformation, and misrepresentations, which have become rampant. Furthermore, I feel the personal attacks against me are uninformed, unfair, inappropriate, and unprofessional. 

I believe that we should conduct ourselves with the utmost professionalism and enthusiasm for our industry. That means remaining silent when you don’t have anything positive to say. It means only giving advice if asked. It means supporting the success of others with the realization that their success ultimately leads to the success of the entire industry. And although everyone seems to feel “entitled” to his or her own opinion, we must remember that Plato said, “Opinion is the medium between ignorance and knowledge”. Furthermore, Voltaire said, “The history of human opinion is scarcely anything more than the history of human errors”. I hope you’ll consider these quotations the next time you wish to express your opinion.

For those of you who believe I am the most shameless self-promoter you’ve ever seen, I offer to you my sincere appreciation. Furthermore, I applaud all those who “shamelessly” self-promote their own work, especially if it helps the industry grow in a positive direction. In case the members of this forum haven’t noticed, the mobile audio industry is in a “death spiral”. We need to do our very best to attract new enthusiasts to the hobby. To do our part, we must elevate the standards in our industry. Fighting amongst ourselves as we strive to be “the best” does little to support the growth of our industry. 

At least one of you believes that I claim to have built the best mobile audio system in the world. You have misinterpreted what has been published. I merely quote what was printed on the cover of the December 2008 issue of the abso!ute sound® magazine. There is no arrogance associated with stating this fact. I’m delighted and honored Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief, and arguably the most renowned high-end home audio reviewer/writer, offered such wonderful praise for my work. As the first mobile audio system to be featured in the magazine’s 37-year history, I believe I’m helping to bridge the gap between car and home audio by raising the level of respect for the mobile audio industry. Many of you also know that I attribute much of my success to Steve McCormack’s system voicing. I readily admit that I could not have attained the level of sonic performance Mr. Harley praised without Steve’s input. 

It seems that at least a couple of you think that I contribute nothing to this forum. I disagree. I’ve posted links to my website where my build log is featured, all 487 photos (unfortunately, I’ve been too busy to update my website with approximately 300 more photos of the re-designed and fully completed Magic Bus). Furthermore, I’ve shared with the members of this forum links to my series of articles that explain how the Magic Bus was designed and built. These articles contain an unprecedented amount of information that the readers of this forum could use to their advantage – and for that matter, many have. Recently, I published reverberation data for the interior of the Magic Bus, and the measured frequency response and step response at the listening position. Instead of generating a useful discussion related to the data I published, the posts degenerated to non-related and unimportant topics. I found that to be both surprising and disappointing. After all, who has published full-spectrum reverberation data for the interior of their automobile, using a handheld sound meter provided by Bruel & Kjaer? My data conclusively proved that all other automobiles were substantially inferior to the Magic Bus, in terms of reverberation spectra. It is well known that the listening environment is arguably the most important aspect of an audio system’s performance, yet scarcely any of you, at that time, acknowledged the value and importance of my work. Furthermore, I showed incredibly smooth frequency response data that extended down to 10 Hz, along with virtually “textbook perfect” step responses, and again, no significant comments. Finally, I hosted a two-day completion party for the Magic Bus, which also featured stellar jazz musicians. Anyone who claims to be a music lover and an audio enthusiast would have found this event to be sensational on a variety of levels, yet only a few of you came, and NONE of you stayed for the music! Instead, those of you who didn’t come to my event complained about the exposition entry fee of $5 and the concert fee of $20! In conclusion, I believe my contributions to the mobile audio industry are original, significant, and helpful. Furthermore, I’m careful not to make comparisons between my work and the work of others. 

Frequently, the members of this forum don’t get the significance and importance of some of the things I do. Take the most recent show in Newport Beach, for example. I played for all my listeners extremely well made and exceptionally lifelike, high-resolution (192 kHz - 24 bit) recordings made my Joe Kubala and Jim Merod which were played from a gold Mobile Fidelity DVD-Audio disc I burned from my computer. The recordings, by anyone’s measure, are about as good as it gets in terms the realism, 3D holographic staging, and dynamics. Certainly much better than compact discs (44.1 kHz – 16 bit) we are accustomed to hearing! Consequently, I considered it to be a rare and exceptional experience that I was delighted to share with my listeners. Yet, the members of this forum did not mention this. I found this to be both surprising and disappointing. I could cite several more examples of how the members of this forum don’t understand my design approaches, or worse, simply dismiss my designs as unconventional and, therefore, ineffective. Even worse, some criticize my designs without fully understanding how they work! For now, I’ll leave this topic for another occasion.

Some of you believe that the only way to validate my work is to compete. Others say I’m never in the company of the “big dogs”. But let me pose this question: when have the “big dogs” ever been in my company, say at high-end home audio shows? To be fair, I think the argument can go both ways. And don’t take my comment as disrespect for the “big dogs” – I have the utmost respect for the “big dogs” and the multitude of ways they’ve offered support and mutual respect for my work. That’s why, as a certified IASCA judge, I have significant respect for competitive organizations and what they contribute to the industry, and all that they’ve done for me. Therefore, I will support them by attending their events and exhibiting, whenever possible. Rather than compete, however, I prefer to focus on a mobile electronics outreach campaign. The Magic Bus, unlike some ultra-topnotch competition vehicles, is a reliable, road-going vehicle, capable of reaching out to a far greater number of prospective mobile electronics enthusiasts. Rather than arguing endlessly about who’s the best, I think we should focus on sharing the joy of what we do so that it encourages others embrace the industry we love. I hope to embark upon a tour and a lecture series and I’d appreciate the support from the members of this forum to make my goal a reality. Each of us needs to do our part by introducing at least one new friend to our fabulous industry. 

Some of you believe that the Magic Bus does not replicate the sound of live music. I concur with you, in absolute terms. After all, what music playback system does? The best we can hope for is that our playback system faithfully reproduces what’s on the recording. Then the question remains – did the recording faithfully and completely capture the live performance? Again, of course not, in absolute terms. So we must admit we are ATTEMPTING to achieve lifelike sound. It is our dedication to achieve the unachievable that is noble, worthwhile, and supremely challenging. My goal with the Magic Bus was to design a playback system that faithfully reproduces the recording, which hopefully approximates the live listening experience. I believe the Magic Bus has largely succeeded in this regard. Those of you who know me know that, throughout the 6-1/2 years of building the Magic Bus, I predominantly went back and forth from the workshop to, almost always, the front row of live performances. In a typical week, for instance, I saw (and continue to see) somewhere between three to nine hours of live music. I felt it was the only way to legitimately calibrate my ears to achieve the recreation of lifelike sound in my playback system. Typically, I alternated between jazz and classical music. I’ve also had some other special experiences, such as attending events sponsored by the Southern California Association of Violin Makers, or attending an American Chemical Society meeting featuring Joseph Nagyvary, a famous biochemist who has done extensive research on the properties of the Stradivarius violins. After researching the sonic nature of violins, it was particularly thrilling to sit in the front row of Copley Symphony Hall, only six feet from Joshua Bell playing his 1713 Strad, and later meeting Joshua Bell and acquiring his autograph on one of my 34 Helmholtz absorbers. To further enhance my ability to recognize realistically rendered violins, I frequently see the Hutchins Consort play at the acoustically fabulous Neurosciences Institute (University of California, San Diego). The Hutchins Consort consists of eight violins, ranging from the treble violin down to the contrabass violin. I also find their recordings to be useful for assessing the timbral balance and stage height of mobile audio systems, among other things. Another experience, equally thrilling, was being present for a live, unamplified concert at Soka University featuring Buster Williams and Bennie Maupin. Jim Merod, renowned recording engineer, made a superb recording of Buster Williams playing “Concierto de Aranjuez” which I saw live. This experience helped me further understand the differences between live sound and that of a recording rendered through my playback system. Furthermore, on several occasions, I have been invited to private concerts held at an exclusive residence in Rancho Santa Fe, CA to hear locally famous pianists play on the host’s Bosendorfer piano. Again, I was able to acquire the pristine recording of this event to play back through my system to aid in its “voicing”. From this I was convinced that I properly captured the “weight” and “body” of the piano. A testimonial to the Magic Bus’ ability to render the piano with lifelike sound came from an experience I shared with Tamir Hendelman (played with John Pizarelli, Gladys Night, Diana Krall, Natalie Cole, and Barbara Streisand) one evening. After seeing him perform at The Grand Del Mar with my favorite flutist, Lori Bell, I asked him for his autograph on the subwoofer. Of course, he obliged. But when he saw the subwoofer, he wished to hear the system. Tamir brought his own CD with him, a raw studio recording of his performance earlier that day. I’ll never forget how Tamir sat in amazement in the driver’s seat as he listened to his recording. In addition to rendering the violin, bass, and piano with extraordinary realism, I’ve also focused on rendering numerous other instruments with state-of-the-art realism and dynamics. In this regard, I consider drums and trumpets to be particularly challenging. That’s why I’ve listened, in the front row, to live performances of fabulous drummers and percussionists such as Dave Weckl, Roy McCurdy, Kevin Koch, Duncan Moore, Tommy Aros (tours with Luis Miguel), (and other locally famous drummers and percussionists too numerous to mention) and acquired their autographs. Many of the drummers who have listened to the Magic Bus feel it sounds like a live drum kit. I’ve also listened to the sensational trumpeter, Gilbert Castellanos (played with Dizzy Gillespie, Les McCann, Wynton Marsalis, Charlie Hayden, Willie Nelson, Diana Krall, Natalie Cole, Poncho Sanchez, and Michael Bubble) hundreds of times, within a few feet of the mouth of his trumpet. Because of these experiences, I believe I’ve acquired unusually valuable experiences to recognize the sonic characteristics of live, unamplified instruments, particularly loud and dynamic instruments such as drums and trumpets. I could continue to cite additional listening experiences with all of the various instruments (flugelhorn, flute, guitar, saxophone, marimba, vibraphone, Hammond B3 organ, and so on) and commentary derived from those musicians’ listening experiences, but I think I’ve made my point.

For those of you who freely offer your mostly negative opinions, judgment, and criticism, I believe it is important to exercise restraint and respect. Nobody likes to be the victim of judgment and criticism. I believe a good rule to live by is not to criticize unless you have done, or can do, better than that which you are criticizing. Therefore, I would ask each of you to consider the Magic Bus (and my credentials which contributed to its design and fabrication) relative to your own car and your own credentials, and ask yourself if you surpass ALL of the following criteria:

1. Bachelor’s degree in Mechanical Engineering
2. Master’s degree in Polymer Science
3. 25 years of industrial experience in materials science, biomaterials, textiles, and valves and fittings
4. Advanced skills in woodworking
5. Advanced skills in composites fabrication 
6. Advanced composites research
7. Automotive, motorcycle, and small engine mechanics
8. CNC programming
9. Advanced knowledge and experience with machine tools technologies 
10. Technical writing 
11. Certified IASCA judge
12. Ten 1st-place trophies in sound quality (Rookie Class) 
13. Over 40 pages of publications in the absolute sound®, Car Audio and Electronics magazine, Entertainment Engineering, San Diego Reader, San Diego City Beat, and counting ...
14. $240,000 overall project budget for the Magic Bus (not counting labor!)
15. $63,000 dedicated directly to audio system (yes, $177,000 went into things besides the actual audio system such as the Sprinter van, tools, shelving computing equipment, business meals, postage and delivery, rent, utilities, office supplies, travel and lodging, advertising, and so on ...)
16. $50,200 in sponsorships (yes, that’s $113,200 into the audio system alone!)
17. 9,880 hours of labor
18. 4,620 Watts of audio system RMS power into 4 Ohms
19. 3,120 pounds of audio equipment and acoustical treatments
20. 206 autographs of Grammy award-winning, or Grammy nominated, or otherwise famous and/or important musicians, and counting ...
21. 34 scientifically-designed and tuned Helmholtz absorbers
22. 20 binary amplitude diffuser panels
23. Studio quality acoustics, validated by objective measurements
24 Two reviews by Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief, the absolute sound®
25. Frequency response down to 10 Hz, validated by a calibrated Earthworks microphone
26. Special invitee to Alpine’s 30th anniversary celebration
27. Special invitee to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 
28. Special invitee to T.H.E. Show in Newport Beach
29. Over 1,000 hours dedicated to listening to live music over the course of 6-1/2 years. Perhaps another thousand more, over a span of 15 years.
30. Member of AES (“Audio Engineering Society”)
31. Read dozens of books and papers on acoustics, loudspeaker design, crossover design, head-related transfer function (“HRTF”), acoustical measurement systems and techniques, and so on. 

Of course any one of these criteria may not mean much, but if taken collectively, they represent a significant body of experience. If your car and your credentials do not surpass ALL the above criteria, AND you haven’t heard the Magic Bus on or After April 23, 2011, I suggest you refrain from criticizing my work. Instead, I suggest you do more research, work harder, listen to more live music, and create your own masterpiece worthy of high praise. I’ll be there to support you. And if you haven’t heard the Magic Bus since its completion, make an appointment with me to hear it. I’d be delighted to share it with you.

In conclusion, I would like to thank all of those who appreciate and understand what I’ve done with the Magic Bus. I’ve put my heart and soul into this project and much of my lifetime savings. The sacrifices I’ve made to design and build the Magic Bus go beyond what most would be willing to do. It is undeniably true that there are many things about the Magic Bus that put it in a class of its own. Furthermore, I appreciate those who have contacted me seeking advice on ways to improve their own system. It is rewarding to meet like-minded individuals who love mobile audio, and to know that I’ve helped a number of people achieve better sound quality. I wish that those who do not know me, and have not seen or heard the Magic Bus on or after April 23, 2011, would stop passing harsh judgment against my hard work. In addition, I wish that many of you would change your mindset from blogging about what someone else’s system lacks to blogging about what someone else’s system does well. Being able to identify weaknesses in another’s person system does not elevate your own stature within the industry – but leading by example does. I would like to receive more support and respect from the members of this forum, so we can work together to get the mobile electronics industry out of its “death spiral” and growing again, like gangbusters, in this admittedly rough economy.

Warmest regards,
Jon Whitledge
June 29, 2011


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Damn Jon for someone who doesn't say much you had a lot to say. You're right when you say that Car Audio has made a turn for the worse and I applaud you for promoting it. If you felt I was a little hard on you and the Magic Bus please forgive me I bash million dollar systems as well.


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

michaelsil1,
we're cool. i was delighted to see you and share the sonic performance of the Magic Bus with you for a couple of hours! someday, when i'm not so busy, i'd like to hear your car.
Best regards - Jon


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

jon w. said:


> michaelsil1,
> we're cool. i was delighted to see you and share the sonic performance of the Magic Bus with you for a couple of hours! someday, when i'm not so busy, i'd like to hear your car.
> Best regards - Jon


I enjoyed it as well.


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

You're diatribe convicted me, BUT I stand by what I said originally. 

That being said, I'd love to see more posts from you offering advice and sharing your VAST knowledge. There aren't a lot of people out there with the credentials you have.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Good to see you posting again Jon. I'm sure you've seen my criticism of the low end in the bus. I'm not sure what volume levels you used to demo for the percussionists listed but I distinctly remember you limiting the upper limit at Marv's BBQ to something quite low, like -20 and you mentioning that your gains were set low. It could also have been the recordings were not the best choices for low end demonstration. As I said, the piano _sounded_ as accurate as I've ever heard, but IMO, and it's just that, my opinion, some of the _feel_ was missing. Body was probably not the best word in my prior post as it conveys that some of the basic tonality is missing, which was not the case. 

Having said all this, and repeating my earlier comment, it's still better sounding than any other car I've heard, including any of mine, despite the changes I would make to it. My posts were never intended as, nor should be construed as a slam, just an observation and my opinion.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

gus1111 said:


> This thread took an interesting turn...
> As I have already mentioned, the "Magic Bus" is the best promoter(publicity wise)for our passion/hobby! Period...
> Everyone sees things differently(from a different angle)
> The magic bus is one of a kind, stands more apart than any other vehicle/stereo and it's not something you see every day...


I'm going to throw a wrench into the works here - I apologize in advance.

The problem I see with the "Bus" being a promotional vehicle for 'mobile audio' is that it's a show vehicle: for the same reasons that a trunk is no longer a trunk when it's filled with fiberglass and chrome-basketed woofers, the Sprinter is no longer a cargo van - it's a show van. It's not practical for most people. The bread-and-butter of DIYMA is what's practical for most people: stealthy installs that are a huge step up from OEM sound, and leave the usability of a vehicle intact. People really like having trunks, ya know? 

I have not had the opportunity to listen to the Sprinter; mind you, I live in Phoenix and I could go to San Diego on a weekend, but I don't have any other reason to right now. I'm sure it sounds fantastic, and I'd love to listen to some familiar music in it, but, again, I don't see that happening unless I go to San Diego for some other reason.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Phreaxer said:


> You're diatribe convicted me, BUT I stand by what I said originally.
> 
> That being said, I'd love to see more posts from you offering advice and sharing your VAST knowledge. There aren't a lot of people out there with the credentials you have.


I am surprised you would refer to Jon's post as a "diatribe" because it was hardly a bitter response or a critical rant or attack. And, I suspect you meant to say you were *converted *by Jon's comments, rather than "convicted." 

That aside, :2thumbsup: to you Jon for a well reasoned, thought out response and for not responding to the attacks you received in a like manner. This forum would greatly benefit if others followed suit.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

HondAudio said:


> I'm going to throw a wrench into the works here - I apologize in advance.
> 
> The problem I see with the "Bus" being a promotional vehicle for 'mobile audio' is that it's a show vehicle: for the same reasons that a trunk is no longer a trunk when it's filled with fiberglass and chrome-basketed woofers, the Sprinter is no longer a cargo van - it's a show van. It's not practical for most people. The bread-and-butter of DIYMA is what's practical for most people: stealthy installs that are a huge step up from OEM sound, and leave the usability of a vehicle intact. People really like having trunks, ya know?
> 
> . . . .


Is it a "show" vehicle, or a purpose-built vehicle? Meaning, one that has been modified with one principal goal - achieving a level of music playback in a vehicle that allows the listener to experience what was recorded with as much accuracy and realism as possible? That is how I would describe the Magic Bus. I think anyone who sees or spends time listening to the Magic Bus quickly recognizes that it reflects a dedication to music reproduction in a mobile environment that few have. While the scope of Jon's work is well beyond what just about anyone interested in mobile audio will undertake, it should not diminish in any way one's amazement or interest in what Jon and others have undertaken in the search for the best possible reproduction of music in a vehicle. After all, in the process of achieving their goals they will have done or experienced something that can be applied by many others (including me) who wish to keep their vehicles "practical."


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm going to buy a short bus and bolt down a pair of polk towers to the floor up front, move the steering wheel to the rear, and put shag carpet everywhere. I'll then post everytime I'm going to McDonald's for lunch so you guys can come listen. Give me about 5 months and I'll post up some FR plots for the haterz.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

I swear man, Ive met this guy, and imo he was super cool, and took many hours EXPLAINING what he did to build this van, not just self promoting, I know I learned a lot

letting get in the vehicle, run their own music, whatever

im rather suprised that people would trash the guy, when all he is trying to do is keep interest up for high end car audio


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

Buzzman said:


> Is it a "show" vehicle, or a purpose-built vehicle? Meaning, one that has been modified with one principal goal - achieving a level of music playback in a vehicle that allows the listener to experience what was recorded with as much accuracy and realism as possible? That is how I would describe the Magic Bus. I think anyone who sees or spends time listening to the Magic Bus quickly recognizes that it reflects a dedication to music reproduction in a mobile environment that few have. While the scope of Jon's work is well beyond what just about anyone interested in mobile audio will undertake, it should not diminish in any way one's amazement or interest in what Jon and others have undertaken in the search for the best possible reproduction of music in a vehicle. After all, in the process of achieving their goals they will have done or experienced something that can be applied by many others (including me) who wish to keep their vehicles "practical."


Fair enough - I don't want to start a meaningless debate on the difference between "show" and "purpose-built". After all, a show vehicle is purpose-built... to be a show vehicle.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Jon, I'm sorry I alluded to your system not being Hood happy. I think Eazy-E would have loved your bass response, God rest his thuggy soul...


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## gus1111 (Apr 17, 2009)

Hello Jon,

How are you doing?
WOW!!! I think you got a God-given charisma of being at the top(best)on anything you do. One of the lenghtiest posts, for sure, but very well thought out, very accurate, very precise, very direct and above all without degrading or name calling. We should all take a lesson or two from you! Please, understand that as human beings, make that male human beings, we like to believe that we are one of the best or the best when it comes to our passion(hobbies)... We do not like it when someone comes along and sets the bar so sky high and it makes us look like first graders in comparison to him!
Please, continue perfecting your "magic bus" and keep promoting it like there is no tomorrow... 99% of the population is not aware of what's possible in regards to hi-fi sound reproduction in a vehicle today...
Once they are exposed to it, quite a few might be converted...
Lets all unite in order to save this industry from death. We are on the same boat(team). Let's not fight who is best, who is second best and so on. This can only add to the problem(death of the industry)...

Jon, may I humbly propose a few things to try in order to imporove the van(assuming if haven't tried them yet):

1. During a demo(ONLY), covering the huge windshield and side windows with diffusers should help image specicifity and depth of the soundfield tremendously. Small spaces(like cars and even a van)can benefit much more from diffusion than absorption...

2. Have you tried to run your tweets and mids on tube amplification(four monos would be the most ideal). I have never heard of a solid-state amp that can do space, imaging, midrange and above all 3D illusion and body like a well designed tube amp. Well designed means no slow, loose, roll-offed, syrupy and so on. Even the best solid state amps sound a bit harsh and aggresive and give a "here" musical perspective. This is totally wrong! Yes, it sounds live but they do not transport you before the musical event that took place in the hall or the church or a club(please, note that I did not say "studio". I am reffering to live audiophile recording in real space without nothing else added)... From what i gather, it seems that you and Steve are solid state kind of audiophiles. Please, correct me if I am wrong...

3. Have you tried different settings(especially EQ)for the road, or demo? What about different settings for different genres or different listener tastes? 

4. The cables you are currently using(IMHO) used to be very good 8-15 years ago but today you can do a lot better for more money though...
I have used the same exact wires(4TC, 8TC, KCAG)in my car years ago and got excellent results in comparison to the generic car brands of the time...
But, once I campared the 4TC in a very high end home audio set up I found out that I was kind of bright, a bit harsh, a bit 2D and a bit fussy when it comes to imaging. The same but to a lesser degree I concluded about the KCAG. I am not sure how many different high-end wires you tried, and how DSP will affect the sound signature of the wires...

Jon, I am not criticizing you or your stereo system. I believe that your magic bus is a masterpiece, to say the least...
I am just trying to throw some ideas out there that might help you improve your setup. This is according to my personal preference, ears, hearing ability, experience and so on...

I have tried audiophile(high end)wires ranging from $100-$1000). From stranded to solid core, from teflon to cotton and in between, from twisted pair to parallel and so on and so on...

Others: Please, let's not turn this thread into a flaming war. This is just my opinion. One nutty audiopile to anoher. Gus1111 to Jon...

Thank you!


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> I am surprised you would refer to Jon's post as a "diatribe" because it was hardly a bitter response or a critical rant or attack. And, I suspect you meant to say you were *converted *by Jon's comments, rather than "convicted."


By "Diatribe" I was referring solely to it's length and thought it was a better word than rambling (as he did not ramble) or lecture (as that doesn't really fit his statements). 

And no, I definitely meant "convicted". As in: "I felt bad and like a jerk for coming across the way I did." Convicted like a person who says something like "look at that idiot over there licking the window" only to walk over and realize that the person has a mental disability. Foot in mouth for another cliche...


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

and fwiw: My whole point wasn't to say his van isn't amazing. I'm quite impressed by it just by reading and looking at the pictures alone without ever hearing it. My only gripe was that he does nothing more than post comments about himself here. I will say again that I would LOVE to read more of his insight, opinions and knowledge shared here among the masses. He has a lot of experience and I believe he could add greatly to the community here @ DIYMA.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

jon w. said:


> 11. Certified IASCA judge
> 12. Ten 1st-place trophies in sound quality (Rookie Class)


How can one be a Rookie _and a_ Certified judge?


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## Phreaxer (Oct 8, 2005)

imjustjason said:


> How can one be a Rookie _and a_ Certified judge?


I was corrected on a similar question earlier. Apparently they weren't at the same time.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Phreaxer said:


> I was corrected on a similar question earlier. Apparently they weren't at the same time.


OK. Even still "rookie" is MIGHTY hard to swallow.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

HondAudio said:


> I'm going to throw a wrench into the works here - I apologize in advance.
> 
> The problem I see with the "Bus" being a promotional vehicle for 'mobile audio' is that it's a show vehicle: for the same reasons that a trunk is no longer a trunk when it's filled with fiberglass and chrome-basketed woofers, the Sprinter is no longer a cargo van - it's a show van. It's not practical for most people. * The bread-and-butter of DIYMA is what's practical for most people:* stealthy installs that are a huge step up from OEM sound, and leave the usability of a vehicle intact. People really like having trunks, ya know?
> 
> I have not had the opportunity to listen to the Sprinter; mind you, I live in Phoenix and I could go to San Diego on a weekend, but I don't have any other reason to right now. I'm sure it sounds fantastic, and I'd love to listen to some familiar music in it, but, again, I don't see that happening unless I go to San Diego for some other reason.


IME, 90% of the car audio market since the late 90s is ALL about fiberglass, chrome subs, and little to no trunk space.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

imjustjason said:


> OK. Even still "rookie" is MIGHTY hard to swallow.


Don't make me remind you of IASCA's "Amateur" class in the late 80s to mid-90s. NONE of those motherfuckers with their sponsored vehicles and $25K-$50K installs were anything resembling an "Amateur."


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## u4styx (May 6, 2011)

I see dedication, passion and heart.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> IME, 90% of the car audio market since the late 90s is ALL about fiberglass, chrome subs, and little to no trunk space.


Let me rephrase what I said...

The bread-and-butter of the entire car audio world: OEM systems for "most" people; read: "good enough".

A must smaller proportion: the fiberglass-and-chrome crowd. All show/no go.

The smallest percentage of the car audio world: us. Our goals are to make an ordinary vehicle the best it can be, sound-wise, without destroying its utility with fiberglass and chrome


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

Jon,

I applaud you on your hard work and dedication to your wonderful project. Furthermore, I applaud you for probably one of the most well written and thought out posts ever made on DIYMA(that I've seen) to date. Please keep them coming! 

Cheers

Pete


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

HondAudio said:


> It's not practical for most people.


Anyone who uses a car as it was intended to be used, really. Even if one ignores the cargo space issue, anyone want to tell me the fuel economy penalty from adding basically a midsized car's worth of mass to a van? How many minutes do you think it would take to go from 40-70 on a highway on-ramp?

There are plenty of places where speakers can be properly placed for good imaging, where multisub systems can be deployed to smooth out room mode excitation, and where the mass of the components required is a relative non-issue. We call them "homes." 
Now, if you live in a van down by the river, that might be a different story. 



Buzzman said:


> I think anyone who sees or spends time listening to the Magic Bus quickly recognizes that it reflects a dedication to music reproduction in a mobile environment that few have.


I know nothing about the van beyond what was written in text here. (Nor, frankly, after seeing an added mass number well in excess of either of my cars' curb weights, do I care to explore it in any depth.) But I think your last verb is misplaced. It should be "care to."

After all, if we're talking about a "mobile listening room" rather than a, you know, _car_, then why stop at a Sprinter? Why not go for a big RV? 

Or better yet, build a "listening room" in a shipping container, and ship it wherever one happens to be on a semi-truck, freight train, or container ship?




quality_sound said:


> IME, 90% of the car audio market since the late 90s is ALL about fiberglass, chrome subs, and little to no trunk space.


Perhaps that's why it has shrunk so much. Though fiberglass can be useful for efficiently using otherwise wasted space. 

The only other thing I wanted to add is that Robert Harley is not only functionally deaf (he routinely "hears" things that simply don't exist, which to my mind means he simply can't hear critically at all) but also a technically incompetent buffoon. Has anyone else tried to read his book about "High End" audio? Seriously, the man must be retarded.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I'm going to buy a short bus and bolt down a pair of polk towers to the floor up front, move the steering wheel to the rear, and put shag carpet everywhere. I'll then post everytime I'm going to McDonald's for lunch so you guys can come listen. Give me about 5 months and I'll post up some FR plots for the haterz.


LMFAO


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

14. $240,000 overall project budget for the Magic Bus (not counting labor!)

17. 9,880 hours of labor (@ $30/hr = $296,400.)

total $530,400.00

"to support the growth of our industry" ??






most people struggle to find $700.00 to invest in a good hu. 

if *knowledge* has any real value to us normal folk/the industry,

show us what can be done in a stock $6000 toyota/honda 'car' with $3500 in equipment, and do all the work yourself, in 2 months, and hold down a job.

That ^ *if* what you produce is significantly better then anything else out there, would be a very clear example of how knowledge and correct application realizes the best results, that we could all follow.

until then, trying to benefit from anything in the bus is about $525,400.00 out of our reach.. 

and therefore of no use to us at all.



(but if you want to trade your bus for my previa im in)


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

60ndown said:


> if *knowledge* has any real value to us normal folk/the industry,
> 
> show us what can be done in a stock $6000 toyota/honda 'car' with $3500 in equipment, and do all the work yourself, in 2 months, and hold down a job.


If memory serves, Jon did this very thing with his original, stock Vanagon, which he built himself (just like the Magic Bus) while holding down a job.



60ndown said:


> That ^ *if* what you produce is significantly better then anything else out there, would be a very clear example of how knowledge and correct application realizes the best results, that we could all follow.


Going 10 victories out of 10 meets would certainly seem to suffice as a "clear example".



60ndown said:


> until then, trying to benefit from anything in the bus is about $525,400.00 out of our reach.


I was able to benefit from the Magic Bus the very first time I saw it and didn't have to spend a dime. All it took was any of the following... observational skills, pleasant conversation with Jon or an open mind. At the very least, you would seem to be lacking the latter-most quality.


60ndown said:


> and therefore of no use to *us* at all.


Your arrogance in speaking for "us" is just that, arrogant... and nauseating. Keep it to "I" statements, please, especially when trying to foist your biased value judgements upon others. Your holier-than-thou attitude toward anyone that doesn't drink your Kool Aid is pretty much devoid of any sort of acceptance. Try carrying the message and not the mess, for a change.


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I'm going to buy a short bus and bolt down a pair of polk towers to the floor up front, move the steering wheel to the rear, and put shag carpet everywhere. I'll then post everytime I'm going to McDonald's for lunch so you guys can come listen. Give me about 5 months and I'll post up some FR plots for the haterz.


I would have to suggest you use the SDA series in this build. Having owned all versions I can say they would fit the bill the best. Be sure and mod the crossovers and replace the SL2000 tweeters with RD0194's to cut some of the harshness/brightness from the top end.

Chuck


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> After all, if we're talking about a "mobile listening room" rather than a, you know, _car_, then why stop at a Sprinter? Why not go for a big RV?
> 
> Or better yet, build a "listening room" in a shipping container, and ship it wherever one happens to be on a semi-truck, freight train, or container ship?


It occurs to me that the above has already been done.

Harman Mobile Listening Room

Anyone seriously think some Sprinter loaded with crappy car-fi gear can compete with a "tin listening room" designed by the best minds in the industry and filled with gear such as Revel speakers? Yet both the Harman trailer and this van have roughly the same utility. And probably quite similar fuel economy and performance figures, truth be told. And the same relative relevance for, you know, _car_ audio, which is about enjoying music as a _background activity_ while driving for pleasure and/or out of obligation.

Yet Harman doesn't charge you to sit in theirs....


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

obviously i wasnt speaking for you Kevin, 

i was speaking for those of us that struggle to find $700 to invest in our car audio.

if my memory serves, your last 'modd' was a trunk full of modded copper zapcos?


im sure that cost *much* more then $700.










kevin k. said:


> If memory serves, Jon did this very thing with his original, stock Vanagon, which he built himself (just like the Magic Bus) while holding down a job.
> 
> 
> Going 10 victories out of 10 meets would certainly seem to suffice as a "clear example".
> ...


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

kevin k. said:


> Try carrying the message and not the mess


the best message i can carry for car audio is, 

"you can get GREAT sound and have lots of fun for $1500"

after that, its *all *diminishing returns.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

this was fun.

thanks for replying jon 



again, i never wanted to come across as a jerk - because it seems you have knowledge and such, as well as a passion to produce awesome stuff. 
i only read half your post though. too much to read there.

good luck with the van, if you are ever on the east coast and have another event within a few hours of where ever i am, i would love to attend for $35. im just not going to drive a few thousand miles to give you the $35 heheh. not all of "us" could practically attend your events.

cheers.
good luck with the van.
andy

im off to practice my pogo sticking!!


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

About a month ago I had an opportunity to listen to The Magic Bus. I spent about a month pondering what I heard, and I think I'll be reflecting on it for quite a while longer.

Here's why:

There isn't a SINGLE valid criticism that one can make about this system. Yet I'm not certain I could be happy with this system.

*This isn't a criticism of The Magic Bus.*

In fact, I'd say that it's an illustration of the tradeoffs that are part of making a world-class system.


















For instance, compare a Honda Accord with a Toyota GT 86:


The cost of the two cars is comparable
The GT86 is more fun to drive
The Accord carries more passengers
The GT86 handles better
The Accord has a better interior
The GT86 looks racier
They're acceleration is virtually identical (6.2 seconds to reach 60mph)

In a nutshell, despite the similar cost, I'd argue that the Accord is more 'balanced' car. It's just as quick as the FR-S, yet it also offers an improved interior and four seats.

*But does this mean that the Accord is the equal of the FR-S on the race track?*

Of course not. The FR-S makes intangible sacrifices so that it's a superior race car, despite sharing a lot of commonality with the Accord. (Similar cost, similar acceleration, similar 1/4 mile speed.)

My feelings about the Accord are similar to my feelings about The Magic Bus. There are cars which exceed the accord in a few areas. There are cars that are faster, there are cars that handle better. *But if you take the package as a whole, the car is nearly unbeatable.*

Here's some things I liked about The Magic Bus:


Absolutely, positively the best bass I've ever heard in a car. Here's an example of how good the bass was:
I was listening to various tracks inside the bus, and one track had a familiar bass line. Although I recognized the riff, it sounded a bit different. Cleaner, better defined. I assumed that the recording was a COVER of the song I recognized. I listened for a full 30 seconds before I realized it was actually the original track! But the bass was so tight and pitch-perfect, it was as if I was listening to a re-recording of the song. Incredible.
Soundstaging isn't a huge thing for me anymore, but the Magic Bus clearly has incredible soundstaging. The center image is comparable to the image in my own car, which has a center channel.
Tonality is as good as anything that I've heard from Dynaudio. The 'signature' of the sound would be familiar to anyone that has listened to Dynaudio's home speakers (which are very good.)
The noise floor in the system is as low as it gets. It sounds like you're listening to a stereo in a bank vault. No electrical noise, and the isolation from the rest of the world is remarkable.

Here's some things I didn't like about the Magic Bus:

The lack of distortion is a bit unnerving. It really made me think about the music that I listen to, and made me wonder if certain types of distortion are not only euphonic, but preferable.
I've heard systems under the dash with more depth. (This comes at a cost though, of a lower stage.)
IMHO, lower order crossover slopes can yield an improvement in articulation and 'bloom' in the soundstage. But this is a subjective opinion of mine. I recognize that they dynamics of the Magic Bus would not be possible without using high order crossovers. (Based on a conversation with Whitledge, he's using LR 4th order)

All in all, this is probably the most accurate car stereo I've ever heard. But it will 'reset' your perception of accuracy. It's so different than everything out there, it would likely take weeks or months of listening to come up with a proper evaluation. This isn't a system designed to 'wow' the listener. Whitledge hasn't compromised one aspect of performance at the expense of another.

I really have to wonder if this is a system that would win universal acclaim however. For instance, a lot of car audio systems have a ton of bass. And for good reason; everyone loves bass, and it's easy to make bass in a car. But the Magic Bus isn't about bass, or soundstaging, or tonality. *It's about EVERYTHING.* So there are certainly car systems which will get louder, but I've never heard one that was as pitch-perfect in the bass. And there are systems with 'stealthier' installs, but none that can image like this.

















It reminded me a bit of the hi-end 'scene', which is dominated by two types of speakers. The first group is tonally accurate with wide bandwidth. The second group is simpler; often with just one drive. The latter systems sacrifice bandwidth, but some prefer the phase accuracy of full range speakers, despite the price that's paid (a lack of bandwidth.)

The Magic Bus is an intriguing system. I'm not convinced it's for everyone though. This is definitely a system for the most discerning listener.









As a footnote to this review, I want to stress that this review is not intended to be critical of The Magic Bus. It truly made me rethink my priorities in audio, and I've only heard a few systems that can do that. It's made me think about what's important in audio reproduction.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Great review, but does it deserve a place on one of the fingers of your 2 hands?  just kidding, your signature was in front of me as I typed this. I think I get what you are saying. It can be quite difficult to keep your goal in mind when you build something like this. From what I read here that mission was accomplished by Jon with his Magic Bus but ultimately your goals are a bit different.
I noticed I started playing different songs from what I liked all these previous years. Why? Because they image better than the music I liked! But why did I like that music in the first place? Obviously not for the imaging. But my goal was to enjoy my preferred music. And now I'm playing something else. Does that mean my mission failed?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Patrick, what other car audio systems have you heard in the past couple years?


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> All in all, this is probably the most accurate car stereo I've ever heard. . . I'm not convinced it's for everyone though. This is definitely a system for the most discerning listener. . . It truly made me rethink my priorities in audio, and I've only heard a few systems that can do that. It's made me think about what's important in audio reproduction.


Patrick, you certainly picked the proper thread in which to write your assessment of the Magic Bus. I have had the pleasure of listening to the Bus for extended periods on several occasions over the course of the past 18 months, and agree with your overall assessment of the Bus’s music playback capabilities. It’s not a system that “everyone” *will *love, but it’s a system that everyone *should *love. I say this because in my opinion the most accurate playback of recorded music should be our objective in building a SQ based sound system. And, in my experience, and as you note above, Jon has fulfilled this objective with the Magic Bus. While the Bus’s reproduction of recorded music might be best appreciated by a “discerning listener,” in my opinion by spending time listening to music in the Bus, one will *become *a discerning listener. This is why I say so. After listening to “familiar” recordings in the Bus, the listener will realize, as you did, that most, if not all, of what he/she thought was “right” either isn’t, or might not be. And, as you suggest, ultimately the listener will have to determine whether they prefer a system that reproduces as accurately as possible the music as it was recorded, or reproduces it in a manner that satisfies them most. Indeed, based on your comments, you appear to be grappling with whether you prefer this level of recording playback accuracy, or something else. In trying to reach a conclusion, one necessarily has to consider whether one wants a less “accurate” system, or whether one wants to become more discerning in one’s choice of recorded music. Indeed, a less accurate system will play back certain recordings in a less satisfying manner, but when such recordings are played back on a more accurate system, the listener will be more pleased. By trying to sort out these issues, we become “discerning listeners,” which I think is a good thing in this hobby. This is why in my opinion the Magic Bus is an asset which should be appreciated and used as a learning tool, and should not be viewed as something to be despised.



bikinpunk said:


> Patrick, what other car audio systems have you heard in the past couple years?


Erin, assuming that he has not heard every vehicle that is currently considered among the best at music reproduction, does that in any way undermine his opinion which is based on, and limited to, what he HAS heard? Suppose he has heard every heard every vehicle that is considered among the best at music reproduction, does his opinion as stated above in any way diminish those other vehicles? In fact, one of those might well be the GT86 in his analogy.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I enjoyed PB's review and although I have not heard the bus I kow EXACTLY what he is talking about. When touring I worked with systems that were much cleaner with less distortion than many, guest engineers would just RAIL the thing to the point of killing people until you finally had to say... "You are not going to get the distortion you are looking for that normally signifies that it is "loud enough." Trust me, you are loud enough."

I believe his response on the low end was due to this also. I would sometimes ADD distortion to my subs to get "that sound." I know it sounds counter-intuitive but I'd rather add it when I need it as opposed to have to get rid of it when I don't want it.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Maybe it was the demo I got, but I want instruments to sound like they do live, not how some engineer thinks I want them to sound. The bus didn't do that during this demo. Like all of the edges were rounded off. The horns lost brassiness, snares had no bite, kick drums were toned down, that sort of thing. It was almost too...polite. I did like it but I wouldn't want mine to sound like that.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Oliver said:


> Bose is still in business, last I looked.


And? You'd rather have a sanitized version of what real instruments sound like? How is the goal "accuracy" if you don't want your system to make instruments sound like the actual instrument? Real isn't distorted, it's real. IRL horns are brassy, cymbals have a bite, music has an edge to it. If you want to water yours down to suit your tastes, fine. You don't, however, have to be a condescending prick to people that prefer accurate to sanitized.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Maybe it was the demo I got, but I want instruments to sound like they do live, not how some engineer thinks I want them to sound. The bus didn't do that during this demo. Like all of the edges were rounded off. The horns lost brassiness, snares had no bite, kick drums were toned down, that sort of thing. It was almost too...polite. I did like it but I wouldn't want mine to sound like that.


Jon W. showed me his tuning curve and it is very accurate.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

michaelsil1 said:


> Jon W. showed me his tuning curve and it is very accurate.


Vague cat is vague. WTF is an accurate curve?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Low distortion bass is the hardest thing to get used to IMO. You want to crank it and crank it until it sounds like what you think is right...and by then you are getting a back massage in the seats because it is soooo much louder than where it should be.

Having the Dyn sound isn't a bad thing...I know I would like it as I like Dyn. But the Dyn sound isn't a live sound...which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your tastes.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> ...which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your tastes.


That alone sums everything up.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Having the Dyn sound isn't a bad thing...I know I would like it as I like Dyn. But the Dyn sound isn't a live sound...which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your tastes.


Exactly what I thought when I was reading Patrick's review, that's just how Dyn's sound... clinical.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

imjustjason said:


> Exactly what I thought when I was reading Patrick's review, that's just how Dyn's sound... clinical.


even these: M3XE

May say they will suck because the amps are not A/B


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

sound being so subjective its often hard to appreciate what others tout as the pinnacle. of experience.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Dyns to me aren't clinical...more of a mellow, warm sound...very relaxed easy to listen to for hours and hours. Somewhere between Morel and Scan Revelators. Revelators to me are clinical and Seas Excels are sterile.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

i know i don't have the experience or accolades that many of you do, but i did get to listen to jon's bus at one of the socal meets and it did sound great. the immediate observation was that it sounded so much different than any of the other 'cars' that i had ever listened to. it was so wide open and effortless and almost clinical. i think with the above posts about distortion there is some validity. i dont have the technical education to back up any of what i say, but i will try to make my opinions sound as educated as possible! being a musician myself (guitars/drums) and having listened to a good number of cars my biggest complaint with the magic bus is that it just didn't sound very aggressive to me. i do believe, however, that this enters the realm of subjectivity because obviously others don't feel the same. that, combined with the lack of 'impact' in the sub-bass range the others have noticed, left me a little hungry for more during my audition.

so, all in all, its a great vehicle. it sounded detailed, warm, open and accurate. it imaged great and was not fatiguing in the least. the install..... amazing! and jon is just about the nicest guy you will ever meet in the lanes; full of info and always willing to share it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> Erin, assuming that he has not heard every vehicle that is currently considered among the best at music reproduction, does that in any way undermine his opinion which is based on, and limited to, what he HAS heard? Suppose he has heard every heard every vehicle that is considered among the best at music reproduction, does his opinion as stated above in any way diminish those other vehicles? In fact, one of those might well be the GT86 in his analogy.


Don, I believe you're jumping ahead of me. Just trying to get a feel for his thoughts on others' cars, if he's heard them. Gives me a better feel for subjective baseline comparison. 
I've heard a LOT of top notch cars. Eldridge, Luliak, Cook, etc. 
If he can provide comparison thoughts it may give me a better idea of how Jon's car performs subjectively.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

bikinpunk said:


> Don, I believe you're jumping ahead of me. Just trying to get a feel for his thoughts on others' cars, if he's heard them. Gives me a better feel for subjective baseline comparison.
> I've heard a LOT of top notch cars. Eldridge, Luliak, Cook, etc.
> If he can provide comparison thoughts it may give me a better idea of how Jon's car performs subjectively.


I'm still wondering if Scott Buwalda got to hear it at CES. I can only imagine how any of the cars mentioned sound. Isn't the magic Bus tuned to a B curve at a pré determined SPL level?

Wouldn't it be great to get Buwalda, Elderidge and Whitledge and all the other big current names together in a parking lot for you guys to hear? Not as a championship or competition. Just an informal gathering to share the love for audio. It will never happen though. It would be a nice promotion for this business in general. Next year CES? (lol)


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

All of them were at CES.

But I can understand guys saying Dyns are clinical...the tweeters to me are pretty dry sounding. Which I happen to like the flavor of, which is why I like the big old Seas 27TFFCs. That character to me makes for an enjoyable extended lsitening experience. Hyper detailed they are not.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

To me they lack any excitement. _To me..._


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I understand that and totally see where you are coming from.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

brett said:


> i know i don't have the experience or accolades that many of you do, but i did get to listen to jon's bus at one of the socal meets and it did sound great. the immediate observation was that it sounded so much different than any of the other 'cars' that i had ever listened to. it was so wide open and effortless and almost clinical. i think with the above posts about distortion there is some validity. i dont have the technical education to back up any of what i say, but i will try to make my opinions sound as educated as possible! being a musician myself (guitars/drums) and having listened to a good number of cars my biggest complaint with the magic bus is that it just didn't sound very aggressive to me. i do believe, however, that this enters the realm of subjectivity because obviously others don't feel the same. that, combined with the lack of 'impact' in the sub-bass range the others have noticed, left me a little hungry for more during my audition.
> 
> so, all in all, its a great vehicle. it sounded detailed, warm, open and accurate. it imaged great and was not fatiguing in the least. the install..... amazing! and jon is just about the nicest guy you will ever meet in the lanes; full of info and always willing to share it.


That's interesting about the sub bass. I was thinking it was just a little bass heavy and one of the other listeners (in the back so that might change things) said the same. I'm not at all trying to argue, it could be any number of variables or just different tastes. There were a couple songs, especially with the cannon blasts where I wanted to turn around and look at the subs excursion because it was a lot of bass in a large vehicle. The big side view mirrors were shaking and people outside the van were all staring at it. The one thing I didn't like is the same thing I don't like in my car feeling the midbass in my leg but I guess there's nothing much you can do about that.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Maybe it was the demo I got, but I want instruments to sound like they do live, not how some engineer thinks I want them to sound. The bus didn't do that during this demo. Like all of the edges were rounded off. The horns lost brassiness, snares had no bite, kick drums were toned down, that sort of thing. It was almost too...polite. I did like it but I wouldn't want mine to sound like that.


But this begs the question whether music, when played back on the Magic Bus system, has those characteristics across the board, or whether the system revealed the music as it really was recorded, and thus as you described. 



chad said:


> Vague cat is vague. WTF is an accurate curve?


Perhaps what Michael intended to say was that he has seen the Bus’s FR curve, agrees that the system reproduces what was recorded very accurately, and therefore the Bus’s FR curve is desirable for accurate music playback. I will add, however, that a FR curve in and of itself does not reflect such things as timbre, tonality and other music cues that affect how we feel about what we hear. So, if you don’t like the “Dyn sound” the Bus may not ignite intense emotions for you. But, you will definitely know what your vehicle’s system has been missing, and what you should be trying to achieve. The Bus, in my opinion, offers as ideal a mobile listening environment as can be achieved, and it’s that environment (basically an almost acoustically perfect room on wheels) that contributes to much of what we hear, and don’t hear, when listening to music on the Bus. The listening experience on the Bus is no different than hearing a concert at Madison Sq. Garden or Radio City, and then hearing the same performer at Avery Fisher Hall, Carnegie Hall or Disney Hall. You know instantly where you want to return to for another performance. Whether you like the “Dyn sound” or not, after spending time in the Bus and returning to your vehicle you will inevitably wish you could create such a listening environment for yourself. 



bikinpunk said:


> Don, I believe you're jumping ahead of me. Just trying to get a feel for his thoughts on others' cars, if he's heard them. Gives me a better feel for subjective baseline comparison.
> I've heard a LOT of top notch cars. Eldridge, Luliak, Cook, etc.
> If he can provide comparison thoughts it may give me a better idea of how Jon's car performs subjectively.


Yeah, maybe just a little ahead of you.  But, the Bus will be at our next Phoenix area GTG on February 23, and since you weren’t able to make the last one, perhaps you can make this one and be able to share your thoughts with the forum. You certainly have some great references for comparison purposes. As always, we would love to have you visit with us.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Dyns to me aren't clinical...more of a mellow, warm sound...very relaxed easy to listen to for hours and hours. Somewhere between Morel and Scan Revelators. Revelators to me are clinical and Seas Excels are sterile.


Was about to say so myself  Dyn's aren't clinical IMO - they do sound smooth and mellow and I know why I won't be using them... am too used to horn's sound  

Kelvin


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> But this begs the question whether music, when played back on the Magic Bus system, has those characteristics across the board, or whether the system revealed the music as it really was recorded, and thus as you described.


You bring up a very valid point. That could well be the case. Considering what we were listening to and the quality of the recording, however, I would hate to think that's the case. Why go through the trouble to make a recoding of that quality and alter it so drastically? 
That said, that's kind of a characteristic of the drivers he's using. Then again, it could be a combination of the two aspects, it's hard to say. All I can say is it's not how I'D choose to have it sound. I appreciate what it is and what he's done though.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Patrick, what other car audio systems have you heard in the past couple years?


Barely any at all. Here's what I've heard (lately):

1) A bunch of cars at various Car Toys events. (Car Toys is a mobile audio retailer where I live in the PNW.) I never heard a single car that sounded good, and my sig was inspired by all the horrendous cars that I heard. JL Audio had a Mini Cooper that was halfway decent, the rest were somewhere between 'forgettable' and 'painful'

2) A car stereo place in Vancouver WA did an SPL contest, and someone brought a white Ford Thunderbird that was incredible. Probably one of the top three systems I've ever heard. That was about a year ago, and was one of the first cars that had me re-thinking whether horns are worth the trouble

3) I really like the stock system in my car. I'd say it's better than 80% of the aftermarkets systems I've heard. The bass is terrible/non existent tho. Simplicity in Sound published some measurements of the system on this forum. (Not my car, but the same system in someone else's Hyundai Genesis.)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> Exactly what I thought when I was reading Patrick's review, that's just how Dyn's sound... clinical.


The Magic Bus didn't sound clinical. It sounded ultra-low in distortion.

But this comes at a price. Everything in engineering involves trade-offs.

For instance, I have a thing for articulation, because I've been building Unity horns for a decade. In a Unity horn the sound is emanating from a point in space that's the size of golf ball. Due to this, they're very articulate.

Magic Bus can't do this; it's not physically possible. The tweeter is something like 15cm away from the midrange*.

Does that mean my Unity horns are better than John's front stage?
NO. John's front stage sounds better than my Unity horns.

BUT, it makes me wonder if it's possible to find a middle ground. The midrange in the Magic Bus is silky smooth, but my Unity horns are more articulate. Perhaps a middle ground would be something like the Kef UNI-Q? (Kef demo'd a $2000 two-way that blew everything out of the water, except a handful of speakers that cost five times as much.)

One way I could describe is if you pictured a continuum, with a set of wide range speakers on the left, and the Magic Bus on the right. A set of wide range speakers like the Tang Band full-range drivers that Matt B has in his Nissan Murano** are going to have articulation and that 'you are there' feeling of a good full range. But they're also going to have plenty of distortion, particularly in the treble. The Magic Bus midrange is like the aural equivalent of pudding, it's just super smooth. BUT a little distortion CAN make things sound more 'exciting.' Also, if you're willing to live with a little distortion you can do some things like use a smaller midrange, which makes it easier to get the woofer and the tweeter close together.



* (In my Unity horns the tweeter is far away, but the wavefront does't expand until it's close to the midrange because it's constrained by a horn.)

** IIRC it's Matt B that has the Nissan Murano with Tangband full range drivers, if I'm wrong please let me know


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Is it low in distortion or is it low in response variation given he's put such an effort in to decreasing modal issues (ie: helmholtz absorbers)? My gut is on this. I think people often cite modal issues as distortion simply due to the fact that its severely less discussed and therefore not really regarded in the manner it should be (opposite of distortion).

IOW, is the liked response attributed to low linear distortion rather than non linear distortion?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Erin, you've tested the Esotar 2 midranges...how did they do distortion wise? They would be better measuring than the Esotec mids. Dunno if you've tested the Esotar 2 tweeters...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The white T-Bird is Mike Peterson...he's a member here. Matt Roberts did/does have the big Tang Bands in the Murano.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

A near perfect mix IMO would be some Dyn midbasses with horns...that's a good sound combo to me if you couldn't get some pro drivers in there.



subwoofery said:


> Was about to say so myself  Dyn's aren't clinical IMO - they do sound smooth and mellow and I know why I won't be using them... am too used to horn's sound
> 
> Kelvin


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Erin, you've tested the Esotar 2 midranges...how did they do distortion wise? They would be better measuring than the Esotec mids. Dunno if you've tested the Esotar 2 tweeters...


My question really is the perceived sound due to that it die to the room treatments he's done? I'd wager the large majority is the latter.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Buzzman said:


> But this begs the question whether music, when played back on the Magic Bus system, has those characteristics across the board, or whether the system revealed the music as it really was recorded, and thus as you described.


The tricky thing about the Magic Bus is that your perception of it's quality will be hugely influenced by your personal preferences.

For instance, I am a 'timing' guy. I seem to be very sensitive to speakers with timing problems. The Vanderstien speakers are time-coherent, and I find that they can do things which other speakers cannot. (cough cough *Focal* cough)

So when I listened to the Magic Bus, I immediately started to nitpick the articulation thing. But it's articulation wasn't *terrible* by any means; I just have a thing for articulation and I've heard better.

BUT...

And this is a big BUT...

The pitch of the bass was a revelation. And this is ALSO a timing thing. My 'hunch' is that the sealed boxes that are used in the Magic Bus are basically as good as it gets when it comes to phase response. And then when you top that off with a health serving of resonance traps*, you get bass that's just TO DIE FOR

Or at least it was for me.

Having said that, the bass doesn't sound like anything you've heard. And that's going to be a problem if you *prefer* distorted bass. Which many do.

Perhaps the best solution is to own two or three cars.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Too Short, The Ghetto, sounds awesome in the bus, at 130+db. just sayin. 

Oh, and also in Scott's G35 and Casey's Jetta...but probably not at that volume. lol


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

jtaudioacc said:


> Too Short, The Ghetto, sounds awesome in the bus, at 130+db. just sayin.
> 
> Oh, and also in Scott's G35 and Casey's Jetta...but probably not at that volume. lol


I just didn't picture Too Short being played in the Magic Bus.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Much less at 130 dB.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Is it low in distortion or is it low in response variation given he's put such an effort in to decreasing modal issues (ie: helmholtz absorbers)? My gut is on this. I think people often cite modal issues as distortion simply due to the fact that its severely less discussed and therefore not really regarded in the manner it should be (opposite of distortion).
> 
> IOW, is the liked response attributed to low linear distortion rather than non linear distortion?


The closest comparison that I could make would be B&W loudspeakers.

The Magic Bus doesn't sound much like Dynaudio's home speakers, because Dynaudio home speakers use low-order xovers. Personally, I find that low order xovers when carefully implemented do a couple things. They make articulation better; basically it's easier to understand what people are saying. They also tend to make the soundstage 'bloom.' This 'bloom' is actually distortion, but it's a pleasant kind of distortion. (The 'bloom' of low-order xovers is because multiple drivers are 'lighting up' the room. With high order xovers there isn't as much overlap between drive units, so the room is 'lit up' less by the bloom. Similar to the difference between having a lamp in a dark room with a lampshade, and without.)

Who was the dude that had B&W speakers in his car back in the 90s? I'll bet his car sounded a lot like the Magic Bus.

I listened to Dynaudio's $100,000.00 flagship at CES, and the Magic Bus had waaaaay more headroom. This is likely due to the smaller space, the very close proximity to the speakers, and the high order slopes. The Magic Bus has headroom to burn. No need for horns in this vehicle, unless you wanted directivity control. The Magic Bus *definitely* has me wondering if car audio horns have outlived their usefulness.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Earl Zausmmer


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Buzzman said:


> Perhaps what Michael intended to say was that he has seen the Bus’s FR curve, agrees that the system reproduces what was recorded very accurately, and therefore the Bus’s FR curve is desirable for accurate music playback. I will add, however, that a FR curve in and of itself does not reflect such things as timbre, tonality and other music cues that affect how we feel about what we hear.


Exactly, I can get a simple X-Y response graph to be as flat as a board, but yet be the worst thing you have ever heard.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> The tricky thing about the Magic Bus is that your perception of it's quality will be hugely influenced by your personal preferences.


But, I think it’s fair to say that is the case with ANY system to which you listen. Personal preferences will influence your assessment. The question is whether the listener's preferences have been developed from being exposed to those things most relevant to assessing the quality and attributes of any sound system. And, the broader and more relevant your experience, the more critical you will be of what you hear. 



Patrick Bateman said:


> . . . Having said that, the bass doesn't sound like anything you've heard. And that's going to be a problem if you *prefer* distorted bass. Which many do.


In my experience most people prefer “distorted bass” because they haven’t heard undistorted bass and don’t have that as a reference. Thus, their idea of how bass should sound is colored, no pun intended. Most listeners do not know what it’s like to hear bass notes played with such clarity that each note of a sixteenth note phrase played on a double bass is clearly discernible. The Bus reproduces bass with amazing clarity and detail, along with low frequency extension, in an utterly effortless manner, which should be enlightening for every listener.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Maybe it was the demo I got, but I want instruments to sound like they do live, not how some engineer thinks I want them to sound. The bus didn't do that during this demo. Like all of the edges were rounded off. The horns lost brassiness, snares had no bite, kick drums were toned down, that sort of thing. It was almost too...polite. I did like it but I wouldn't want mine to sound like that.


Havent heard the bus, but I agree with what you are saying. real instruments have body to them, they have bite and they can be offending at times.
I have heard many really nice sounding vehicles that had very similar characteristics to what you describe and Polite or "nice" is a very accurate description.
REAL is definitely something they did not sound like.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

I believe Erin has a big point with the sound be effected by the acoustic treatments inside the bus.


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

quietfly said:


> I believe Erin has a big point with the sound be effected by the acoustic treatments inside the bus.


Without a doubt, the acoustic treatments contribute greatly to what the listener hears, or doesn't hear, as I stated in an earlier post. He has effectively eliminated much of the influences the "room" has on the reproduced sound. BUT, you can have a great system in a great room and still not reproduce music with any level of "accuracy." Jon had to figure out *how* to "tune" the room (the Bus), how and where to place his speakers and with what angles of dispersion, determine crossover slopes and frequencies, determine proper gain levels, match output levels, and on and on. So, it's not just a matter of effective acoustic treatments alone.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mic10is said:


> Havent heard the bus, but I agree with what you are saying. real instruments have body to them, they have bite and they can be offending at times.
> I have heard many really nice sounding vehicles that had very similar characteristics to what you describe and Polite or "nice" is a very accurate description.
> REAL is definitely something they did not sound like.


That's a shame... Because often times, like it or not, real is easier to get than polite.

I'd wager a bet that a ton of people that have meh sounding systems made them meh by taking the reality out of them.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Buzzman said:


> Without a doubt, the acoustic treatments contribute greatly to what the listener hears, or doesn't hear, as I stated in an earlier post. He has effectively eliminated much of the influences the "room" has on the reproduced sound. BUT, you can have a great system in a great room and still not reproduce music with any level of "accuracy." Jon had to figure out *how* to "tune" the room (the Bus), how and where to place his speakers and with what angles of dispersion, determine crossover slopes and frequencies, determine proper gain levels, match output levels, and on and on. So, it's not just a matter of effective acoustic treatments alone.


Don't get me wrong. I wasn't taking away from all the other installation and tuning he's done. My point was more in the "what has he done that others really have not" context. 

Many of my friends completely understand speaker design and they all have taken steps to help them have the best crossover points they can and best off-axis response (sound power) possible. I spent 2 weeks at this alone before the speakers even went in the car and that alone has made more of an improvement than any in-car tuning I've done yet. I'm not tooting my own horn... my car still has a LONG way to go before I'm satisfied. But, I'm just saying from my perspective, looking at his install log, the standout to me is his room treatment. Everything else is somewhat par for the course considering he actually understand and implements such treatment. 

I can't personally name one other person who has gone through the lengths he has regarding treatment (yes, because of the choice of car and available space but so what). I know plenty of people that have gone through further lengths regarding driver choice (low linear and non-linear distortion drivers) and install choices, but none of them use treatment that even touches what John has done. Understanding how treatment and working with the PEQ in absence of it, this is what would be the most marked improvement over all the other systems I've heard whose speaker/install choices result in excellent sound power. In other words, this would put them all over the top. And if I had to guess, I'd say this is probably the most stand out feature of his car. I'd be willing to bet money... well, maybe a snickers bar since I'm not that wealthy ... that if John were to remove his lower bass targeted treatments, his car would be an ENTIRELY different animal and I'd be willing to bet the comments regarding the apparent lack of low frequency distortion would be largely negated. When midbass is sloppy (which it always is unless a person has targeted it with treatment or good use of PEQ), the rest of the system is sloppy. Where modal issues are dominant, 50-300hz depending on the car, is where the most muck comes from. If you can tame that through tuning or install, it really allows the listener to enjoy everything above that band _even more_.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know one car...er truck, but it was sold and gone overseas. Mark's old 4 Runner.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

bikinpunk said:


> Don't get me wrong. I wasn't taking away from all the other installation and tuning he's done. My point was more in the "what has he done that others really have not" context.
> 
> 
> I can't personally name one other person who has gone through the lengths he has regarding treatment (yes, because of the choice of car and available space but so what). I know plenty of people that have gone through further lengths regarding driver choice (low linear and non-linear distortion drivers) and install choices, but none of them use treatment that even touches what John has done. Understanding how treatment and working with the PEQ in absence of it, this is what would be the most marked improvement over all the other systems I've heard whose speaker/install choices result in excellent sound power. In other words, this would put them all over the top. And if I had to guess, I'd say this is probably the most stand out feature of his car. I'd be willing to bet money... well, maybe a snickers bar since I'm not that wealthy ... that if John were to remove his lower bass targeted treatments, his car would be an ENTIRELY different animal and I'd be willing to bet the comments regarding the apparent lack of low frequency distortion would be largely negated. When midbass is sloppy (which it always is unless a person has targeted it with treatment or good use of PEQ), the rest of the system is sloppy. Where modal issues are dominant, 50-300hz depending on the car, is where the most muck comes from. If you can tame that through tuning or install, it really allows the listener to enjoy everything above that band _even more_.



I compare it to the B&W listening room. that has the single chair in the middle of the room. As long as you are sitting in that chair, the sound is beyond compare. sure some of is it the 100k in equipment, but more of it is the 300k of treatment done to the room. all together, they are greater than the sum of its parts. 

I'd love to be able to put a lot of those techniques to use, however in an everyday driver it becomes prohibitive. still gives us all something to aim for.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I know one car...er truck, but it was sold and gone overseas. Mark's old 4 Runner.


Yea... and he may have some stuff done to his NASCAR that I can't recall. I do know others who have done some treatments but nothing to the degree John has. Then there's PEQ which no one (few) really seems to use except for Mark.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

cajunner said:


> .....
> as it is, it's just an exercise in what can be accomplished in a vehicle, but doesn't translate well to the average compact Japanese sedan that seeks 38 mpg on city time..


LOL it doesn't even translate well to my Large Korean sedan that gets 22mpg city...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think the NASCAR has the level of what the 4 Runner had in it. The 4 Runner when you sat in it, it was quiet...spooky quiet. Some said that it was too dead (Fred Lynch) and that it would benefit from less treatments. I just know it was on a different level of quiet on the inside than anything that I have ever heard before or after.

Maybe what Mark did was different than what John has done? I couldn't tell you if the feeling inside is the same...never heard John's vehicle. But Mark's 4 Runner was the basis of a lot of IASCA cars at the time making foam traps and difusors in the rear glass area and roof. I know Mike Peterson's T Bird had a lot of that stuff going on back then.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Can't you over "kill" it though? I don't think an optimum listening environment is a anechoic chamber because we are so use to reflections, but not necessarily the shower either. Maybe part of the lack of attack and the rounded characteristic of the sounds attributed to exactly the limited refractions. However this would be beneficial in the aspect of detail and articulation of sound. The balance is a subjective blend, like handling versus comfort.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm not talking about high frequency absorption. I'm talking low frequency bass trap type absorption to help tame modal response issues. John has quite a few helmholtz absorbers in his car, IIRC, each tuned to separate frequencies.


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## co_leonard (Aug 14, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> I'm not talking about high frequency absorption. I'm talking low frequency bass trap type absorption to help tame modal response issues. John has quite a few helmholtz absorbers in his car, IIRC, each tuned to separate frequencies.


And this is where I'm envious. He's got a big cabin. Lots of space for bass traps. 

I own a small car. The bass traps I have in my home listening area (both DIY and purchased) won't fit in my car. 

Considering Jon's amazing results, I'd still like to try. Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but are there guidelines on building or installing effective bass traps in a compact car?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

chad said:


> *Vague cat is vague*. WTF is an accurate curve?












One that doesn't have any dips or peaks. :laugh:


I was informed that the curve I saw wasn't what I listened to, so I take back what I said about Jon's curve.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

michaelsil1 said:


> One that doesn't have any dips or peaks. :laugh:
> 
> 
> I was informed that the curve I saw wasn't what I listened to, so I take back what I said about Jon's curve.


A curve that doesn't have dips or peaks is good but that doesn't make it accurate  
Understand what you're saying though... 

Kelvin


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> A curve that doesn't have dips or peaks is good but that doesn't make it accurate
> Understand what you're saying though...
> 
> Kelvin


I think that getting rid of the dips and peaks does make it accurate, however it may not be desirable.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

co_leonard said:


> And this is where I'm envious. He's got a big cabin. Lots of space for bass traps.
> 
> I own a small car. The bass traps I have in my home listening area (both DIY and purchased) won't fit in my car.
> 
> Considering Jon's amazing results, I'd still like to try. Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but are there guidelines on building or installing effective bass traps in a compact car?


Some thoughts:

1) The Helmholtz resonators that Whitledge uses are different than the ones you typically see in homes. They're BIG. It's not possible to address low frequency resonances with 'bass traps' because the wavelengths are too big. A bass trap would have to be a minimum of seven feet (!) deep to be effective at 40hz. Here's info on helmholtz resonators: http://audioundone.com/do-it-yourself-bass-traps

2) The way that we typically deal with bass resonances is with EQ. The 'neat' thing about helmholtz resonators is that they both reduce the 'boom' and they also clean up the impulse response. IMHO, that's the main reason the bass in the Magic Bus sounded so, uh, "magical."

3) I believe that Geddes-style multi-sub setups do the same thing. Basically the way that the Geddes set ups work is that it distributes the resonances across the frequency band. So they're still there, but they're not as big and there's more of them. I used to run about eight subs at home in a Geddes multi-sub setup, and it's 'signature' was similar to the Magic Bus bass. Basically pitch sounds very clear and distinct, and it's easy to almost 'picture' a bass player running through the notes. Major goosebump type stuff.

The Geddes type setups are potentially easier to do in the car than in the home, because in the car you only need multiple woofers between about 63hz and 500hz. This is because the wavelengths begin to exceed the length of the car by 63hz. For instance, 500hz is 27" long, 250hz is 54" long, and 125hz is 108" long. *So as you go lower and lower in frequency, there's no need for multiple drivers to 'distribute' the resonances.*

Whitledge is very proud of the spectral delay plots from the Magic Bus, and I'm certain the helmholtz resonators play a big part.

IIRC, it's also possible to achieve these results with DSP. Someone might need to correct me on that. In the past I've been very anti-DSP, because DSP can only fix problems at one spot in the car. But the intersting thing about bass is that the wavelengths are so long, the 'sweet spot' is much much larger. When you use DSP to clean up 125hz, the effects of doing that will be audible across the whole cabin because 125hz is 108" long.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

PEQ will help in the same fashion. Standard 1/3 octave graphic absolutely will not, though. You need a Q of at least 8 IME. And you need to be able to put this anywhere you want, rather than being limited to a set few frequencies. 


I'm not at all saying everyone will benefit from what John has done directly. My question/assertion was simply that this is likely the largest contributing factor to the 'low distortion' sound that has been discussed of his van.


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## ALL4SQ (Mar 28, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Barely any at all. Here's what I've heard (lately):
> 
> 1) A bunch of cars at various Car Toys events. (Car Toys is a mobile audio retailer where I live in the PNW.) I never heard a single car that sounded good, and my sig was inspired by all the horrendous cars that I heard. JL Audio had a Mini Cooper that was halfway decent, the rest were somewhere between 'forgettable' and 'painful'
> 
> ...


Thanks Patrick,

That was me with the White T-Bird. I really enjoyed talking with you about horns. I still find the idea of building custom compression drivers out of standard midrange drivers really interesting. I may play with some custom horns in my next vehicle. 

The sound of my T-Bird has improved a little since you heard it. I rebuilt the floor panels under your feet so I could bring up the midbass level a bit without feeling it in your feet. I switched to a different type of signal steering and cleared up some two seat imaging problems. 

I probably would have scored better at the IASCA finals if it wasn't for my CD player error problems. 

Thanks for the Kind words. Hope to see you at a local show this year.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ALL4SQ said:


> Thanks Patrick,
> 
> That was me with the White T-Bird. I really enjoyed talking with you about horns. I still find the idea of building custom compression drivers out of standard midrange drivers really interesting. I may play with some custom horns in my next vehicle.
> 
> ...




























I live north of Seattle these days; if any of you guys are in the same neck of the woods, you MUST hear Mike's Thunderbird. Lots of solid engineering, smart choices on the equipment, and a mind numbing amount of sweat equity.

Not to go off on a tangent, but something that I've noticed at a lot of the speaker shows that I go to is that the speaker designers have a new design year after year after year. Basically 90% of these guys aren't even happy with their own systems, so they keep coming back with something completely new. But there IS that 10% or so that keep refining a good design, year after year, until it's better than everything else out there. And Mike's car reminds me of that; the system design is simple, but the implementation is incredible.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ALL4SQ said:


> Thanks Patrick,
> 
> That was me with the White T-Bird. I really enjoyed talking with you about horns. I still find the idea of building custom compression drivers out of standard midrange drivers really interesting. I may play with some custom horns in my next vehicle.
> 
> ...


Your car is one of the experiences that really had me wondering if horns are worth the effort. I still *like* horns, but I'm not sure if they're competitive in 2013. At the 2013 CES I didn't hear a single front loaded horn with treble that I could live with.

*If* you have sufficient power (and power is cheap), the only advantage of horns is directivity control. But it's hard to get directivity control very low in a car, due to the wavelengths. A 900hz waveguide is 15" x 15". Even horn Gods like Danley are using a lot of direct radiators these days; half of the new 'Synergy horns' use a direct radiator. (SM80 comes to mind.)

I think back loaded horns and tapped horns still have promise. BLH and tapped horns have a lot more in common with vented boxes than they do with FLHs. (Don't want to threadjack tho; one of these days I'll have to start a thread and try to convince more people to do BLHs.)

My new build for my old Accords is using BLHs for the midrange.

If you have a chance, go listen to these:

KEF LS50 review from the experts at whathifi.com









This type of driver could really take kick panel setups to the next level for a lot of cars. Too bad you can't buy it; you basically have to buy the speaker and toss the cabinet. At least you get a 'free' passive crossover in the process.

At CES I didn't hear anything under $10,000 that could compete with this. (It retails for less than $1500)


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## ALL4SQ (Mar 28, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I live north of Seattle these days; if any of you guys are in the same neck of the woods, you MUST hear Mike's Thunderbird. Lots of solid engineering, smart choices on the equipment, and a mind numbing amount of sweat equity.


I didn't know you were that close to me. Maybe I could bother you for some tuning help before this season starts. I'm decent as tuning by ear but trying to make since of multiple frequency curve averages and time plots tend to confuse me. 




Patrick Bateman said:


> Not to go off on a tangent, but something that I've noticed at a lot of the speaker shows that I go to is that the speaker designers have a new design year after year after year. Basically 90% of these guys aren't even happy with their own systems, so they keep coming back with something completely new. But there IS that 10% or so that keep refining a good design, year after year, until it's better than everything else out there. And Mike's car reminds me of that; the system design is simple, but the implementation is incredible.


To be honest some of us wouldn't know what to do with all the free time if we stopped working on our cars. Car audio competition is an addiction.


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## ALL4SQ (Mar 28, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Your car is one of the experiences that really had me wondering if horns are worth the effort. I still *like* horns, but I'm not sure if they're competitive in 2013. At the 2013 CES I didn't hear a single front loaded horn with treble that I could live with.
> 
> *If* you have sufficient power (and power is cheap), the only advantage of horns is directivity control. But it's hard to get directivity control very low in a car, due to the wavelengths. A 900hz waveguide is 15" x 15". Even horn Gods like Danley are using a lot of direct radiators these days; half of the new 'Synergy horns' use a direct radiator. (SM80 comes to mind.)
> 
> ...


 These KEF speakers list as Biwirable. Is there a compression driver in these or is there a tweeter down in the center of the mids voice coil?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Tweeter behind the phase plug.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ALL4SQ said:


> These KEF speakers list as Biwirable. Is there a compression driver in these or is there a tweeter down in the center of the mids voice coil?


Kef has been refining their coax for something like 15 years now, and this is the latest 'affordable' versions of it. Has the following features:

1) A tweeter in the center of the woofer. This improves off-axis response, and gets closer to the 'ideal' transient behavior. (Basically you can't get really good transient response in more than one location any other way. Both the tweeter and the woofer need to be in the same point in space.)

2) A 'tangerine' phase plug. Nicked form Altec horn work in the 60s. The phase plug basically cleans up the frequency response on and off axis.

3) A woofer surround designed to reduce diffraction

Check out the on and off axis measurements at Stereophile, and compare them to a good two-way. You'll see what I mean about the advantages of a coax.


To my ears, the KHT1005 sounds 80% as good as the LS50. The LS50s big advantage is dynamics; it has much higher power handling. It also allows for a much lower xover point to the subs.

Here's some pics of the Kef and Danley Speakers, just to give you an idea of the 'family resemblance.'









Kef LS50
















Danley SM80








Kef Blade (Basically an LS50 with eight subs in one cabinet)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

In my last post I noted that the Kef has really awesome on and off axis response; and argued that this is one of the things that could improve articulation in something like Peterson or Whitledge's build. Here's some measurements to illustrate what I mean.

The Kef on and off axis response:


























Dynaudio Confidence C4 on and off-axis

























See how the Dynaudio gets really ugly, even 15 degrees off axis? Particularly on the vertical?

This is one of the reasons I have a 'thing' for Unity horns and coaxes. The LS50 simply crushes the Dynaudio in the polars. And polars are even more important in the car than in the home, because we're listening off-axis.

The LS50's performance simply wasn't possible twenty years ago; loudspeakers have come a long way since 1993, due to the ubiquity of neodymium motors, and big amplifiers which make it practical to design a 6" woofer with an xmax of 10mm. That enables a lot of things which simply weren't practical twenty years ago, like a two way with an efficiency of 85db that is dynamic.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Kef has been refining their coax for something like 15 years now, and this is the latest 'affordable' versions of it. Has the following features:
> 
> 1) A tweeter in the center of the woofer. This improves off-axis response, and gets closer to the 'ideal' transient behavior. (Basically you can't get really good transient response in more than one location any other way. Both the tweeter and the woofer need to be in the same point in space.)
> 
> ...


Don't forget the q100. It's a very excellent performing bookshelf. My sure I can name anything better than it anywhere near its price range. It strongly rivals the Scan DIY towers I use sans the LFE.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Ciare has an 8" version of the one Danley is using in his SM80. Little bugger is impressive...very deep and expensive though. Does use a 1.4" compression driver though like the bigger brothers.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Ciare has an 8" version of the one Danley is using in his SM80. Little bugger is impressive...very deep and expensive though. Does use a 1.4" compression driver though like the bigger brothers.


Mannnnn, I crave Danley.

That was the only demo room at InfoComm that really put a smile on my face. Even their micro 8 is REALLY good.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Patrick, how much of the Ls50's performance is speaker vs enclosure? I just checked out KEF's site and specs on the speakers and that timy box is PACKED with all sorts of goodies. 
could that be replicated in a kickpanel or car door?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

quietfly said:


> Patrick, how much of the Ls50's performance is speaker vs enclosure? I just checked out KEF's site and specs on the speakers and that timy box is PACKED with all sorts of goodies.
> could that be replicated in a kickpanel or car door?


In the car the response above 1000hz would be virtually identical. (Assuming you use the xover that's in the box.)

The main difference would be below 1000hz, where the difference in baffle dimensions would make the midrange and bass more prominent.

Then again, this is a bookshelf speaker, so the xover may be optimized to be placed against a wall. At CES they were playing them about 5' from the back wall.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

One of the reasons that everything in the Magic Bus sounds so good is that everything is isolated from the vehicle; for instance the subwoofers are mounted on an isolation platform designed for military generators. (info on that here : http://www.whitledgedesigns.com/uploads/EE_v04i02_audio.pdf)

Geddes has a clever and inexpensive way to isolate subs; simply hang them from nylon cords. I'm picturing a subwoofer box hung from the rear deck by nylon cords, with the hooks epoxied or drilled into the cars chassis. Neat.

Measured monopole and dipole room responses - Page 55 - diyAudio


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