# Focal Flax 2-way speakers hurting my ears



## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

Car: 2013 Toyota Camry
Head unit: Alpine CDE-W265BT
Speakers: 2 sets of Focal Flax 2-ways, front and back. Front tweeters in sail panels, back tweeters mounted next to woofers. Passive crossovers are being used. 
Amp: Alpine PDR-F50
Subwoofers: 2 Alpine Type-R 12's in a ported box
Subwoofer Amp: JL Audio 1000w monoblock 
Trunk and front doors have sound dampening. 
Install was professionally done by a highly reputable dealer in Nor Cal. 

I've had these speakers in my car for a few months and despite EQ tweaking, they hurt my ears consistently even at lower volumes. At first I thought it was sibilance with esses and snares, but cutting those frequencies (1k, 2k, 7k, 8k, 10k) only seems to muddy up the sound, not fix the piercing sonic pain. 

Some people I've talked to suggest that it is the recordings themselves causing the issue, which I can agree with to a degree, but I don't experience this same level of painful assault from other speakers.

Here are a few random albums that hurt:

The new New Order album
The new Birds and the Bee album
The new Peaches album
Crystal Method - Vegas album
Dr. Dre - Compton album (although this is known to be harsh)
The new Leftfield album
The new Jamie XX album

Overall, the issue appears on music of all different styles. 

Others have suggested this is a crossover issue and that I need to go active or attenuate the tweeters. I understand that is something I could try, but I would have to spend a lot more money to go active, which, at that point, maybe I should just switch these out for some different speakers. 

Has anyone else experienced issues like this before, or own a pair of the flax series that doesn't hurt?


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Did you flip the switch on the passive network to attenuate the tweeters?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

that would be my first step as well. I've never been a fan of focal tweeters except the eutopia b ones but I think you should be able to get a sound you like overall even with them.


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## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

I believe the switch is flipped as it was something that was discussed during the install process, but need to take the doors off and double check.


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## JTele (Aug 21, 2015)

Focal tweeters in general seem to be pretty notorious for being a bit harsh. I didn't have the Flax tweeters, but I did have a Focal PS 165 component set where I swapped the tweeters out for a set of ScanSpeak D3004s, and it made a world of difference in terms of cutting down the harshness and brightness without losing clarity. I was also able to cross them over a little lower, too. Plus, they work very well with the 6.5" Focal woofers. I am running active, however, but swapping out the tweeters might be something to consider if your budget allows for it.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Very odd, I find the Flax to sound very smooth with a subtle level of warmth compared to many others. I love Jamie xx although I haven't heard the new album on Flax tweeters yet but I will very soon. Such an amazing album!


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

replacing the tweeters doesn't have to be expensive either if you decide to try that out.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

As long as the crossover can handle it, just remove the rear tweeters altogether, there is no good reason to have the high frequencies behind you, and it's very difficult to tune multiple tweeters for good sound.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

They hurt my ears for a while too. After they broke in and I put an rta on them to tune in really enjoying them. I think what's hurting you has nothing to do with the tweeters. The upper midrange on the woofer can get rough. If you cut on that dome these speakers become very full and warm . I found a slight downward eq curve seems to suit them best.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

drop1 said:


> They hurt my ears for a while too. After they broke in and I put an rta on them to tune in really enjoying them. I think what's hurting you has nothing to do with the tweeters. The upper midrange on the woofer can get rough. If you cut on that dome these speakers become very full and warm . I found a slight downward eq curve seems to suit them best.


That and he's running a weak amp for those speakers. The f50 isn't all that powerful and dollars to doughnuts says he has peaks in FR exactly where his little 9band or whatever basic deck eq dosent cover. The flax stuff is nice sounding , and the tweeters can sound good so long as nothing is boosted


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## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I do agree with drop1, I think it is more of an upper midrange issue vs. tweeter, but am not 100% sure on that. I talked to an Orca rep awhile ago and it seems that the crossover frequency for the tweeters are above where I perceive the issue to be. It's hard to be certain though, as I obviously haven't fixed the problem yet. 

It's interesting to hear a comment about my amp. According to the specs from Focal, my amp should match up with these speakers and it was recommended by my dealer, but maybe I need a bigger beefier amp to really make them sing. I'm not opposed to that idea as upgrading to a bigger amp wouldn't necessarily be that expensive if I bought used. 

That was another concern, the 9-band EQ kinda sucks compared to the EQs I'm used to using for audio production. I would like to get a processor someday, but before I go spending another grand, I want to make sure that will fix the underlying issue.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Tylox said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I do agree with drop1, I think it is more of an upper midrange issue vs. tweeter, but am not 100% sure on that. I talked to an Orca rep awhile ago and it seems that the crossover frequency for the tweeters are above where I perceive the issue to be. It's hard to be certain though, as I obviously haven't fixed the problem yet.
> 
> It's interesting to hear a comment about my amp. According to the specs from Focal, my amp should match up with these speakers and it was recommended by my dealer, but maybe I need a bigger beefier amp to really make them sing. I'm not opposed to that idea as upgrading to a bigger amp wouldn't necessarily be that expensive if I bought used.
> 
> That was another concern, the 9-band EQ kinda sucks compared to the EQs I'm used to using for audio production. I would like to get a processor someday, but before I go spending another grand, I want to make sure that will fix the underlying issue.


9 bands is plenty to get a good tone out of these speakers. 
I've got a pretty heavy cut at around 1khz on the eq. 2 and 3khz boosted a hair and everything above that cut about 4 db.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

I have heard the flax 3-ways, but not the 2-ways. The flax series drivers which I have heard are some of the "least harsh" sounding Focals I've heard, and they can be controlled to sound quite nice, if presented as a singular pair positioned and tuned properly forward of the listener position.

However, if an additional pair is added, behind the listener no less, this presents a near-impossible tuning challenge for even the best of equipment, and the best of tuners for that matter.

It is no surprise to read that this configuration hurts the ears.

If the aim of this installation is superior reproduction of sound, getting rid of the rear "front stage" would be a logical first step.

Most folks neither want nor need a "rear stage", so get rid of that, unless that's what you like, of course. Invest instead on developing a singular front stage and going active.

If nothing else, this move alone should cut your pain in half.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

XSIV SPL said:


> I have heard the flax 3-ways, but not the 2-ways. The flax series drivers which I have heard are some of the "least harsh" sounding Focals I've heard, and they can be controlled to sound quite nice, if presented as a singular pair positioned and tuned properly forward of the listener position.
> 
> However, if an additional pair is added, behind the listener no less, this presents a near-impossible tuning challenge for even the best of equipment, and the best of tuners for that matter.
> 
> ...


I can agree with this. They stage really well and once tuned to sound correct that's exactly what they do.


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## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

I often turn the rear speakers off with the fader when it is just me driving. It still hurts though. 

I agree with the rear stage. For some music it sounds ok, but for most the system sounds better with just the front stage.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Tylox said:


> I often turn the rear speakers off with the fader when it is just me driving. It still hurts though.
> 
> I agree with the rear stage. For some music it sounds ok, but for most the system sounds better with just the front stage.


The rear stage should be heartily discarded... Do it, don't look back!

A rear stage will only confuse whatever goodness the front end is producing.

Honestly, it's hard enough to try tuning a single pair of satellites; don't make life so difficult as to try winning this losing battle of sitting between four of them!

Unless you are going for a full-on surround system with adequate processor to support that, fogettaboutit!


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Nothing stings the ear like 2 tweeters being just a little out of align with the other. 4 tweeters will only amplify that to unbearable levels. 

If you are passive you are forced to turn the tweeters to an almost precise spot to get them aligned.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Before you buy or change anything use an rta and play some pink noise to see where the frequencies are too high. Hopefully you have the processing power to tame it/them. I think there are some rta apps that are free even.


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## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

I've been using a free RTA app on my iPhone, pink noise, and have been observing the RTA while music is playing as well. I tend to see spikes around 1k, 2k, and 5k. I've lowered those frequencies and at low volumes it generally sounds ok. If I turn it up though, my ears are like 0_0. 

Maybe my perceived volume of moderate is above 90db and in damaging range. I'll see if I can find a spl app for my phone or find someone with a meter to see where I'm at. 

i think I'm going to look more into selling the rear stage and making the front stage active. The money from selling the rear stage could go towards a beefier amp or processor perhaps.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

if you do keep the rear stage for passengers, you could put any old coaxial in there and power it off the headunits rear channels, dedicating your 4 channel amp to going active.


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## payluder (Dec 31, 2014)

Lycancatt said:


> if you do keep the rear stage for passengers, you could put any old coaxial in there and power it off the headunits rear channels, dedicating your 4 channel amp to going active.


Very good advice and that is exactly how my system is set up and when there is no passenger I fade to the front so my sound stage is back to here my installer tuned my system to.


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

Tylox said:


> Front tweeters in sail panels
> 
> Has anyone else experienced issues like this before, or own a pair of the flax series that doesn't hurt?


Yes but not with flax. 165V30 set, reversing phase of tweeters helped. (+- wires reversed at crossovers) Rainbow makes note of this in their manual, focal probably still does not.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I would keep cutting back on 1K, ( especially, 2K ,2.5K and 3.1K) , and try 4K, 5K and 8K see if that helps. 2.5K being the worst as far as hurting my ears. Drop that as much as possible. If you have a parametric equalizer make it really fat and cut as much back as you can.

There is midrange hurt and tweeter hurt.


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## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

I measured my typical listening volumes with a free db app on my phone and realized that what I consider a moderate to quiet volume is right around 90db :/. I wonder if perhaps part of my issue is listening to music too loud. My typical volumes were never so loud as to turn heads or make my hair move, but I've noticed the pain hasn't been as bad the past couple days keeping it just below 90db. It's just not as fun . 


Still though, even at ~90db it feels a bit sharp in the midrange. I currently have 1.2 and 2k down by -4 or -5, then the rest of the upper range at -3. The back speakers have been turned off. It's tough because while the EQing has helped a little bit with the harshness, it still doesn't quite feel like what I was expecting for the amount of money I paid for these speakers. 

I'll keep tweaking the EQ some more, use the RTA app on my phone and test out different curves.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I listen to my system usually around 95DB with some peaks over 100. On some tracks, the high guitars, audience cheering, or female vocals make me turn back the volume knob. Maybe you can try an inexpensive quick speaker swap and see if that harshness goes away? Hopefully, you can fix it with more tuning. 
Kind of hindsight, but its always best to demo speakers before you shell out your hard earned $$$$. May be a costly lesson. Listen to as many systems as you can and find out what you like best. Everyones ears and tastes are different. Reviews are subjective. At least if you hear a system that you really like, you know you will not be making another gamble.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I'd say it's a tuning issue. Gotta measure! Always.


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

Tylox said:


> Still though, even at ~90db it feels a bit sharp in the midrange. I currently have 1.2 and 2k down by -4 or -5, then the rest of the upper range at -3. The back speakers have been turned off. It's tough because while the EQing has helped a little bit with the harshness, it still doesn't quite feel like what I was expecting for the amount of money I paid for these speakers.


Did you try swapping the polarity on tweeters? Costs nothing but little time to make the switch.. I understand if crossovers are mounted inside the doors you might want to try eq it out instead.. 

It's so easy to do on 80prs


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## Tylox (Jun 15, 2015)

That's the thing. I demoed these speakers at the store and they sounded great. Of course, that was in a demo room. 

I haven't tried switching the polarity on the tweeters yet but will look into doing that. I am also thinking of going back to the shop and using their RTA to see how it matches up to my free phone app. They have a nice unit there, or maybe I will get lucky and shop up on a day Gary is hanging out. 

I might be able to work out a way to test some other speakers as well. 

In the mean time, I'll keep tweaking the tuning.


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## stereoguy009 (Oct 15, 2011)

Are you using the ps165f or the ps165fx components? The fx series are have much more flexible xovers. Id try swapping polarity on the tweeters and checking the slope at which the speakers are crossed over at. There might be a reflection or something causing the peak in frequency


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

One thing about the Focal speakers tho, if u check their RMS and peak, it's very low. U don't need a lot of power to push them because they're so efficient. I have heard the focal tweets are harsh but with the Flax...everyone says they're very smooth. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Skelshy (Jan 21, 2010)

I demo'd those, and the Flax 165FX were the speakers which made me reconsider Focal. I found them still on the bright side, but not nearly as punishing as anything I heard from Focal before. Anyways that does not solve your problem  but it should be salvageable.

First, I'd disconnect the rear tweeters. If they are annoying you, less of them should be a good thing. Then, flip the -3db switch in the crossovers

http://www.focal.com/usa/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=3970

At high volume, both speakers and amps can distort massively. With the 85wpc Alpine, you are already at what the speaker can handle. With any wattage, we are most interested at the level of distortion that comes with it. Alpine plays it safe and specs .07% THD at rated power. 

The speaker looks to be pretty efficient, too: Nom. power: 80W. Sensitivity (2.83V/1m): 91.3dB


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Lots of bad advice here...


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

XSIV SPL said:


> Lots of bad advice here...


Really? That's what you're going to contribute to this discussion? 
Leaving a little jab like that and walking away makes you sound like you know more than everyone else but you're not willing to teach anyone, just point out their failures and laugh.

Prove me wrong.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Your journey sounds similar to mine. I am currently tuning my system, same exact set of speakers, '11 STU. I have done several configs, with mixed results. Once I get to work, I will post more about it. For now, subbed to hear what others have to say about this as I also have been dealing with the same problem.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

BTW, Jazzi, you are the man. I just found your tuning sheet, it has been helpful, thanks a bunch for providing that to the community. Nice job!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Try running in and out of phase on the mids and tweeters - also maybe look at a proper Class AB amp as well.. I have heard the Flax 3 ways and they don't sound terrible to me - but from experience with my Utopias the phase is big deal for them... Get it wrong and they will scream at you.. Get them right and they are butter


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Tylox, let me share my experience with this set. I have been changing my system and improving it and with every change, I noticed a change in the sound. Note, the actual placement of the speakers did not change, not did my listening position so the changes I made were responsible for the changes in sound.

I installed the 2-way 165fx components few months ago in my '11 STI hatch. I set them up as a passive setup, xovers in the doors, both mids and tweeters powered off 2 front channels, using Alpine PDX4.100 amp, retaining jumpers in the xovers. Rear fill (alpine coaxials) running off 2 rear channels.

Verdict: I was disappointed. The sound I heard is what you describe, harsh, very piercing in the highs, sounds bad, I knew something was wrong. The xovers were set to -3db for tweets and high setting for mids (not clear what that setting actually does).

Next step, I decided to bi-amp the setup, front channels feeding mids, rear channels feeding tweeters, rear fill running off the deck power (Clarion NX603). This gave me ability to adjust gain on mids and teeters individually. I was hoping I could fix the problem by lowering the gain on the highs thus achieving a more balanced sound.

Verdict: the quality of sound definitely improved, it got much cleaner, and by turning down the gain on the tweets, it got the shrill down by a fair amount. It was better, but not great. Note, I made a mistake of going with fronts feeding tweets and rear going to mids, which is a bad idea since BT calls in my HU are sent to the front channel only, so I couldn't hear anything out of the tweeters. Important detail if you do this and decide to go active.

Next, I realized I needed a DSP. I added Zapco Z8. I set my crossovers and this is where things got a big messy. With a DSP and passive xovers at different slopes, I introduced phasing problems between speakers. Remember, every xover introduces phase shifts in different directions, to various degree, depending on the slope and type, and whether it is a low or high pass filter. By having multiple of them, it was creating a tuning nightmare. So, check your setup. Do you have xover set on your HU? What is it? That combines with your passive xover which is shifting the signal. Note, the focal xover for this set has different slopes for mids and highs which can be another can of works altogether: 2nd order for mids and 3rd order for tweeters, IIRC.

I decided to go active at this point. I got rid of passive xovers, disabled everything on the HU except for the LPF which can't be turned off (you suck Clarion, which is why you will be replaced soon) and I set my DSP the following: 80Hz LPF for the sub, 80Hz - 4KHz BPF for the mids, 4KHz HPF for the tweeters, I dropped the rear fill altogether for now.

Verdict: another step in the right direction. Sounds better, still sounds too crisp in the highs, but I am now running all xovers from the DSP, 24Db/oct slopes, I can hear the phasing is much better, especially between the mids and sub, I think the rest I can deal with using EQ and possibly changing the position of the tweeters. I may also go down on the xover frequency between mids and tweeters to see if they sound better, no lower than 3KHz. General guideline says +1 - 1.5 the Fs value is a good place to start, that means around 2.7KHz - 3.4Khz, give or take a few.

Few things to think about:

- look over your entire system. Do you have multiple points where you're employing xovers? If yes, see if you can cut that down.

- polarity swaps can help to some extent if you happen to be roughly 180 degrees out of phase. Try it and see if it helps. Nice thing about a DSP is that changes like that can be done without any rewiring. You can flip the phase back and forth and quikcly decide, better or worse.

- are you on or off axis for your tweeters? High frequency sounds tend to be more uncomfortable on axis, meaning, the speaker is directly pointed at you. If you aim it away, you'll notice a drop off in higher frequency ranges and the sound may become immediately better and less fatiguing. In my case, my left tweeter is off axis since it is aimed at the passenger seat, while the right one is close to on-axis to me since it is pointing at me, from the opposite direction. I suspect some of my problem comes from that, you may also have a similar situation. This is why some people, in their car, can say "hey, it sounds great to me, no idea what you're talking about", while others like me, with the exact same set hear something totally different, due to acoustics and general install in our cars.

- consider buying a calibrated microphone if you want to tune. I picked up a UMIC-1 and it has been very valuable in helping in measure my changes, especially setting uyp phasing. I can see cancellations in the plots using REW, which tells me my phasing is off. Very hard to do this by ear. Once you start EQ'ing, a calibrated mic is very useful. It's about $100 for a UMIC-1 so it's not a lot of money, if you consider what you paid for the focals and the sounds you're trying to get out of them.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Question to folks that are advocating running active using 4 channel amp and running rear off the HU power:

It seems like a good idea to split the pre-amps from the front channels and feed both mids and tweets from the 2 and leave rear pre-amps disconnected, while the rear fill is off the HU power. This way you can use fader to control just how much rear fill you can have. If you do run tweets off the rear pre-amps and attempt to use the fader, you will end up attenuating your tweets and rear fill at the same time, which I tried and that is no bueno. I also tried splitting pre-amps and that seemed to work but my right tweeter was cutting in and out. Not sure what the problem was, perhaps the deck didn't deal well with lower impedence due to the split. Any thoughts on how to do this right, short of just cutting the rear speakers off completely?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Golden Ear said:


> Before you buy or change anything use an rta and play some pink noise to see where the frequencies are too high. Hopefully you have the processing power to tame it/them. I think there are some rta apps that are free even.


^^ Exactly.

You're using thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Please don't tell me that you're running without an EQ?

This is essential; in a car it's literally impossible to get a good soundstage and smooth frequency response without EQ.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I'd say it's a tuning issue. Gotta measure! Always.


^^ more good advice


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## THEDUKE (Aug 25, 2008)

So I noticed that Focal uses 12db for the mids and 18db for the tweeters on their passive crossover network. Does these mean that the tweeter runs out of phase by using a different slope or does it not matter?


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## Skinny Puppy (Jan 31, 2016)

There's too much tweeter in that car. No need for a rear set. If you're trying to make a 4 seat sq car you're missing an incredible amount of equipment, and the stuff you have isn't a good place to start. As said above that amp may be adding to your problem, and lack of adjustable eq. 

I'm running the ps165fx with two xtants, pioneer avh5800, and they sound excellent. They can sound harsh if I boost the frequencies for the tweets.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

THEDUKE said:


> So I noticed that Focal uses 12db for the mids and 18db for the tweeters on their passive crossover network. Does these mean that the tweeter runs out of phase by using a different slope or does it not matter?


Midranges typically have quite a bit of inductance. So when you use a 12dB/octave passive crossover, you wind up with an 18dB/octave acoustic xover. Basically the voice coil itself behaves like the inductor in an 18dB xover.


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## Ericm1205 (May 10, 2016)

great info here. i just installed my focal 3 way expert series flax and just running off a 4 way amp and eq in the HU for now. But i have an Alpine H800 waiting to be installed and tuned once i read more up on the manual. 
gonna run them all off my 6ch Helix amp, might be to much power, but i'll keep the gains down and use a smaller amp to power the 6x9 focals in the deck and and kinda turn them down so they dont pull the stage into the backseat.


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Midranges typically have quite a bit of inductance. So when you use a 12dB/octave passive crossover, you wind up with an 18dB/octave acoustic xover. Basically the voice coil itself behaves like the inductor in an 18dB xover.


Interesting although the question remains and I think he is on the right track. In terms of signal processing, 12 and 18db crossovers will be 90 degrees out of phase.


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## jb4674 (Jan 29, 2015)

The music you're listening to sucks. Go listen to better music and you'll see the difference.

On a serious note, you need to go active and get a DSP. Once those speakers are set correctly, they should sound better.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Jazzi said:


> Really? That's what you're going to contribute to this discussion?
> Leaving a little jab like that and walking away makes you sound like you know more than everyone else but you're not willing to teach anyone, just point out their failures and laugh.
> 
> Prove me wrong.


Don't go jumping on the SkizeR bandwagon so quickly, Jazzi-  I had already said about all I had to say about this on page 1, and in reading back over it all at the time when I made that post, it pretty much summed up how I felt about what I had been reading.

On the bright side, there have been numerous helpful posts since this one of yours by folks such as Patrick and yourself. Keep up the good work


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## Barnacle (Mar 3, 2011)

agreed


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## Ziggyrama (Jan 17, 2016)

Quick update on this, I have been experimenting with different placement of the tweeters to see how their sound. I tried sail panels firing off axis towards each other, firing close to on axis towards me, and now moved them to corners of the dash firing up at the windshield. I did rough time alignment every time to set the stage. So far I like the last configuration the most. Staging is most cohesive, still too much up top but with very broad EQ change in that area the sound immediately got much better and that was with just 2 mins of tuning. So, placement is key, and if combined with EQ, these speakers can sound very good. The detail coming through is amazing.

My setup: '11 STI hatch, 2-way ps165fx, pdx4.100 amp, running active with Zapco DSP


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