# Illusion Audio C12XL



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Does anyone have an idea or clue when is C12XL will be out again.. IV been out of sub for close to 2 months now... I want my new sub! 

Help is appreciated 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

They are in production.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

cobb2819 said:


> They are in production.


talked to the guys at ORCA and apparently there are some issues and they don't have a ETA of when these things will be available.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

shutmdown said:


> talked to the guys at ORCA and apparently there are some issues and they don't have a ETA of when these things will be available.


Hahha.. Jacob IS one of the guys at ORCA...


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Ahh Crap. last time i called OOOOO they told me 6-8 weeks. but that was 8 weeks ago lol...


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I wonder if anyone is selling one


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

They're sooooo worth the wait.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Hahha.. Jacob IS one of the guys at ORCA...


Joey! your making me look like a fool.  lol jk
I actually did PM Jacob a few days ago, but I also called and talked to Nalaka.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

This waiting game passes me the f off. Seriously I'm just at the point of getting something different and call it a day

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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I just hope that if I do wait this long I won't be disappointed lol cuz than it would really piss me off to the point of selling everything and going back to stock system... on the other hand that would really suck  all this work and improvements hahaha can someone send a letter in Obama name to hurry them up all ready 

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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Lol I know the hurry up and wait feeling. I want aware that the C12XL were not available anymore. Op I am hoping that someone dealer wise has one stashed and will contact you soon for the buy.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

It's not that they're unavailable...it's that they sold every single one they made. They're just on backorder again.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

quickaudi07 said:


> I just hope that if I do wait this long I won't be disappointed lol cuz than it would really piss me off to the point of selling everything and going back to stock system... on the other hand that would really suck  all this work and improvements hahaha can someone send a letter in Obama name to hurry them up all ready
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


its a sub...it moves air when power is applied...pick another one...or wait....but try not to let it get you so down


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

It just happens to move air in a way few others do. There's a reason they sell out on a regular basis.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

I had to wait for mine also. It was worth the wait.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

UNBROKEN said:


> It just happens to move air in a way few others do. There's a reason they sell out on a regular basis.


No doubt it is a great woofer, and i went thru something similar several years ago when shopping for a 18" HT driver...the one i wanted from mach audio was just taking forever to get into production. Add to that it seemed like all the 18's were being held up at the time and i was frustrated too.

I was just trying to say that there are a TON of great subs out there, and not to get frustrated if the exact one he wants is not available. I meant to imply that he could wait it out if he wanted, or choose any number of great subs before giving up and going back to stock. meaning lots of people are happy with their subs that don't have a IA12.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

papasin said:


> I had to wait for mine also. It was worth the wait.


Since u got 2 of them,,, can u send me one please lol


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

quickaudi07 said:


> Since u got 2 of them,,, can u send me one please lol



Lol. Sorry, but not a chance. They are right at home.










Actually, we got 3. Wife got one for herself, the other two were my Father's Day gift last year. Such a thoughtful wife.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

now i know who u are lolzzzz


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

well what can i say.. ur one happy dude hahahhaha well im glad u have a wonderful wife like that. My ex wife sucked ass and never supported me in mu hobby of car audio ... so be happy and grateful &#55357;&#56833;


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

When You Think Your Done! Reality is..... is just the beginning 


See guys that's what im talking about lol its a simple fact


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

papasin said:


> Lol. Sorry, but not a chance. They are right at home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know. Father's Day is coming up. Can you have your wife talk to my wife?! 

quickaudi07, do you already have an enclosure built? The only reason I ask is that the Arc Audio Black 12 and Ground Zero GZUW 12SQ use the same exact basket and work in similarly sized enclosures. You might be able to pick one of those up to run until the C12XL is available. Then just unload the use sub in the classifieds or craigslist.


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## 727south (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the Gladen SQL sound as good and cheaper.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

727south said:


> I think the Gladen SQL sound as good and cheaper.


Which reminds me, several Gladen models use the same basket as well.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

papasin said:


> Actually, we got 3. Wife got one for herself, the other two were my Father's Day gift last year. Such a thoughtful wife.


Two. For fathers day. Ugh.
For my birthday yesterday I got heat stroke.

Some days you're the dog and some days you're the fire hydrant.

I am currently saving for them myself. My retailer said they are on back order (Monday) but will let me know when he gets them.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

727south said:


> I think the Gladen SQL sound as good and cheaper.


Yes but how much is that sub ?? I'm sure it's not cheep just like any other. mosconi name brand stuff


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## bose301s (Dec 8, 2008)

Honestly if you're looking at these look at the CSS SDX12, both are XBL^2 motors but the SDX has 10mm more 1 way xmax so 20mm more p-p xmax, works in the same size box and probably significantly cheaper. I wouldn't even consider the C12XL personally knowing the CSS SDX12 is out there.

Creative Sound - Product Details


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

bose301s said:


> Honestly if you're looking at these look at the CSS SDX12, both are XBL^2 motors but the SDX has 10mm more 1 way xmax so 20mm more p-p xmax, works in the same size box and probably significantly cheaper. I wouldn't even consider the C12XL personally knowing the CSS SDX12 is out there.
> 
> Creative Sound - Product Details


Have you heard the creative and the c12xl?


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## 727south (Jul 21, 2009)

quickaudi07 said:


> Yes but how much is that sub ?? I'm sure it's not cheep just like any other. mosconi name brand stuff


$699.00


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## bose301s (Dec 8, 2008)

DLO13 said:


> Have you heard the creative and the c12xl?


I've heard neither, but if I were looking between the C12XL and the CSS I wouldn't even have to think about it, the CSS would be my choice every time.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bose301s said:


> I've heard neither, but if I were looking between the C12XL and the CSS I wouldn't even have to think about it, the CSS would be my choice every time.


Seems valid. 

I've not heard the CSS, but it would have to prove to be one heck of a subwoofer to make me choose it over the C12XL. Even at just over 1/4 the price. I know for my own install, the CSS wouldn't even be an option (depth limitation).


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I don't put a lot of stock in anyone making a choice without hearing either. What you read on paper often differs from real world results.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

UNBROKEN said:


> I don't put a lot of stock in anyone making a choice without hearing either. What you read on paper often differs from real world results.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

bose301s said:


> I've heard neither, but if I were looking between the C12XL and the CSS I wouldn't even have to think about it, the CSS would be my choice every time.


To be fair to your overall intentions.. Your correct.. the Illusion sub is WAY overpriced for what it is, DIYMA has def gone down hill when we have "boners" like these running around.. This site used to be about value and staying away from overpriced dedicated car audio "SQ" drivers.. The illusion audio sub is well engineered, but is in no way shape or from worth the money they charge for it. 


That being said, I don't know if I'd reccommend the SDX whole heartedly. While it's listed at 30mm xmax, most of that xmax isnt' super useable when it comes to actual distortion levels. The suspension on this thing is really noisy past 20mm or the 30mm is BL xmax only and suspension does NOT keep up with that.

All that also being said, it basically still has the same xmax as the C12XL, but is much cheaper and has more mechanical throw you can def use if you playing this thing out of a trunk lol. The exodus audio shiva and tempests were xbl^2 and ran in the 300-400 range in terms of pricing and those DID have a clean 30mm xmax, shorting rings, xbl^2 etc, no reason to grab a C12XL unless mounting depth comes into play..

Issue is it seems like half the people that want this thing are looking for a magical "SQ" driver that will make their bass dissapear and give them the best quality possible regardless of everything else.. The kind of thought process this site was designed to avoid. Reminds me of the morel ultimo rage a few years back..

$1000 for a subwoofer, especially a 12 is a hard pill to swallow. I paid 750 for a B&C21sw152 and that has similar xmax values (16mm), WAY more thermal powerhandling (2k is NO sweat, cone barely gets warm) and approx 3x the cone area.. Also great looking BL curve (textbook according to the voicecoil review) although it's not XBL^2 and has superb inductance control (it can be used as a midbass) Oh and it has a MUCH stronger neo motor so other than the carbon fiber aestetics, I'm not seeing where this 1000 pricetag comes in.

For all the bandwagoners and happy owners of the C12XL, I'm not saying it's a bad driver, but I am saying this things should be under $500 for what it is with no extra markup.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

UNBROKEN said:


> I don't put a lot of stock in anyone making a choice without hearing either. What you read on paper often differs from real world results.


I agree and that's why I was so hesitant to buy my Illusion components. Never heard of them, never heard them and didn't know anyone locally that had heard or seen them. Took the advice on here, read some reviews and took a chance.
Glad I did because they are everything they were hyped to be and I love them.
I am nervous about spending so much on a pair of subs though. I may just buy one at first and see if I like it as much as I like my C6 Carbons.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

LaserSVT said:


> I agree and that's why I was so hesitant to buy my Illusion components. Never heard of them, never heard them and didn't know anyone locally that had heard or seen them. Took the advice on here, read some reviews and took a chance.
> Glad I did because they are everything they were hyped to be and I love them.
> I am nervous about spending so much on a pair of subs though. I may just buy one at first and see if I like it as much as I like my C6 Carbons.


It offers almost NOTHING your dayton HO's don't other than an xbl^2 motor.. Which if your really using these things for pure SQ in a car, the woofer isnt' moving enough for that to matter much anyways..


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

It's obvious you have some disdain for the Illusion subs. I'm fine with opposing opinions...you can call them the forum boner or whatever you like. I've personally tried the most of the upper echelon SQ subs and this one is hands down the best I've ever used.
I didn't read about it on paper...I bought it and tried it. The vast majority of people that have actually auditioned them are very interested in running them in their own rides. There's a reason for that...
Specs aren't everything....and comparing 2 subs on paper means exactly jack **** in the real world.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

UNBROKEN said:


> It's obvious you have some disdain for the Illusion subs. I'm fine with opposing opinions...you can call them the forum boner or whatever you like. I've personally tried the most of the upper echelon SQ subs and this one is hands down the best I've ever used.
> I didn't read about it on paper...I bought it and tried it. The vast majority of people that have actually auditioned them are very interested in running them in their own rides. There's a reason for that...
> Specs aren't everything....and comparing 2 subs on paper means exactly jack **** in the real world.


What he's trying to say is that what drives this forum nowadays is mostly hype for the next best thing. It did not use to be like that let's say prior to 2008. 

Morel Ultimo used to be a forum boner and was part of a lot of a lot of system from DIYers - it was/is a good sounding subwoofer (heard it a couple of times), now it's the C12XL time to be one. Not saying it's a lateral move but when it comes to subwoofers of that caliber in an SQ system, it just comes down to preference. When a new sub comes out and gets rave reviews from the regulars, you might see a lot of C12XL for sale in the classifieds in order to have "the" ultimate substage (once again). 

What I find amazing (regarding the C12XL) is the ability to play lows effortlessly and requiring to cut below 30Hz - all that in a small enclosure. 
Same thing I've done with my ported enclosure BTW 

Kelvin


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I went from an Ultimo 12 to a C12XL...in my particular install it wasn't a lateral move but a huge move forward. Key words..."my install"


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Oh boy i got some reading todo


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

bose301s said:


> Honestly if you're looking at these look at the CSS SDX12, both are XBL^2 motors but the SDX has 10mm more 1 way xmax so 20mm more p-p xmax, works in the same size box and probably significantly cheaper. I wouldn't even consider the C12XL personally knowing the CSS SDX12 is out there.
> 
> Creative Sound - Product Details


How much power can they handle?


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Its been a while since i had a sub in my car, im willing to wait for the c12xl, i just don't know how long i could actually wait


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Are they even remotely suggesting a eta for this subwoofer that you are aware of ?


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## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

rton20s said:


>


My new favorite image 


Anyone in the Seattle area with a C12XL? Would love to compare it to my SI BM MKIV.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I have no clue everyone changes dates. So I have no clue when dealers will get them.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Man it seems these subs are on the level of hen's teeth, and I mean that in a good way.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I agree  ^^^^ im just sick of waiting for one lol


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

This is what's currently installed in the side of my Legacy.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Illusion please come to US or I will go a different route... Maybe I'll go back to Morel and just get 2 of them  lol but I do like the idea of one sub solution !

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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I don't know much but I know bitching won't get you one any faster. lol


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Coppertone said:


> This is what's currently installed in the side of my Legacy.


Dibbs.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

UNBROKEN said:


> I don't know much but I know bitching won't get you one any faster. lol


My Boss always tells me to suck it up princess!!! lol


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

So...suck it up princess!!


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

BOOM!

That just happened.


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## bose301s (Dec 8, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> How much power can they handle?


They're rated at 1000 watts iirc.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

bose301s said:


> They're rated at 1000 watts iirc.


EDIT: sorry, not sure if you're referring to the C12XL or not. But the C12XL rating is in the pdf below and IME have put more power than rated and they seem to like every bit of it.

http://www.illusionaudio-america.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/CarbonC12XL.pdf


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I miss the days when DIYMA actually lived up to it's name.

That said, don't believe the hype. The new Type R from Alpine may be a competent competitor


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> I miss the days when DIYMA actually lived up to it's name.
> 
> That said, don't believe the hype. The new Type R from Alpine may be a competent competitor


Unless you're talking about buying your own basket, motor and soft parts then building your own subwoofer, you can get over yourself. Buying a $130 subwoofer from Parts Express doesn't make a build any more DIY than buying a $1000 subwoofer from Illusion audio. The only difference is the price tag.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rton20s said:


> Unless you're talking about buying your own basket, motor and soft parts then building your own subwoofer, you can get over yourself. Buying a $130 subwoofer from Parts Express doesn't make a build any more DIY than buying a $1000 subwoofer from Illusion audio. The only difference is the price tag.


:laugh:

As was stated earlier, DIYMA was about finding value and bang-for-the-buck. It had nothing to do with manufacturing a sub from scratch.

You probably missed that part since you weren't here.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

bassfromspace said:


> :laugh:
> 
> As was stated earlier, DIYMA was about finding value and bang-for-the-buck. It had nothing to do with manufacturing a sub from scratch.
> 
> You probably missed that part since you weren't here.


Value and bang for the buck are subjective. Given the performance of the XL subs and what I paid for it...It's a huge value to me with virtually unparalleled performance.
Sorry...but the Type R isn't even close. Not comparable at all IMHO.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

UNBROKEN said:


> Value and bang for the buck are subjective. Given the performance of the XL subs and what I paid for it...It's a huge value to me with virtually unparalleled performance.
> Sorry...but the Type R isn't even close. Not comparable at all IMHO.


Cool.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

UNBROKEN said:


> Value and bang for the buck are subjective. Given the performance of the XL subs and what I paid for it...It's a huge value to me with virtually unparalleled performance.
> Sorry...but the Type R isn't even close. Not comparable at all IMHO.


Until both drivers hit a klippel and perform with an gnats fart of each other, which is likely what would happen. At actual SQ levels in a car it's very easy for MANY drivers to be "good enough". Kicker L7's have won at comps before FFS.

If you found your holy grail of subbass by thowing $1000 a the problem, good for you, your at least happy lol. As others said this forum USED to be about more than that.. There are plenty of drivers for much less that can keep up with CXL. You can get things like the type R with a xbl^2 motor and shallow mounting depth. There are XBL^2 drivers with bigger mounting depths and more xmax like the CSS. Heck there are plenty of non XBl^2 drivers that at true SQ blending levels will stay well under xmax and still have a super flat curve for the first 5mm of excursion they will be needing. Dayton Ho comes to mind really quick, especially ported. Heck my old AV15 is a very competent driver in ti's own right, underhung 23mm xmax and super low inductance and a quiet suspension.

The point is most of the holy grail is getting proper crossovers set, time alignment, vehicle treatments and level matching along with a competently built driver, which can be found for far less than $1000. Perhaps most importantly is getting a proper frequency response in a box size and alignment you can live with. My AV15 for example exhibited the same response as a pure SQ oriented IB setup with only 2.5 cubes ported tuned at 25hz, I used passive radiators and easily had gobs of output out of the trunk with 2 15's in a very small box and super low distortion (even lower than an IB setup would have had) 

Anyway I have NO personal issues with Illusion audio or any of it's drivers.. I def wasn't a fan of anything morel though.. They measure like crap, have huge inconsistencies speaker to speaker in terms of t/s, crappy softparts and they charge a freaking arm and a leg for that subpar build quality.. At least the illusion sub I'll admit is a very good driver although IMO it really doesn't do anything you can't get for cheaper.. **** an LMS ultra can be had for cheaper and I would bet $1000 that measures better objectively. It def can get much louder and probably lower in the box volume they'd both fit in, although it's def NOT a shallow mount lol.

Anyway my person vendetta is that now when someone asks on diyma "I want good SQ what do I do" the common response is you need these $3000 hat drivers so you can be like the SQ pro's and a $1000 illusion audio subwoofer. We are right back to the blind leading the blind, since NPDANG left things went downhill pretty bad. Slow at first, but coming back to this site now that it's been several few years since he sold it, it's basically the same as CACO, CAF or any other regular forum. Throw money at the problem to fix SQ instead of taking an objective apporach at the issue.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Why is everyone so hung up on the $1000 number? Who cares what it costs if it works?
Also...one of the reasons it is so highly regarded is not only because of how good it is at SQ judging levels but the fact that it has more balls down low at high volume than just about everything else. Definitely goes lower than any of the W7's I've had in the past....but does it with as much finesse as the Ultimo's and Esotar's.
That is very hard to find....I know...I've been searching for it for decades.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> Unless you're talking about buying your own basket, motor and soft parts then building your own subwoofer, you can get over yourself. Buying a $130 subwoofer from Parts Express doesn't make a build any more DIY than buying a $1000 subwoofer from Illusion audio. *The only difference is the price tag.*


Truer words have never been spoken :laugh:


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

UNBROKEN said:


> Why is everyone so hung up on the $1000 number? Who cares what it costs if it works?
> Also...one of the reasons it is so highly regarded is not only because of how good it is at SQ judging levels but the fact that it has more balls down low at high volume than just about everything else. Definitely goes lower than any of the W7's I've had in the past....but does it with as much finesse as the Ultimo's and Esotar's.
> That is very hard to find....I know...I've been searching for it for decades.


That's because of the xbl^2 motor. For most sealed subs as the coil begins to really move on low notes you lose BL.. A drop in BL (motor force) causes a raise in the Q of the driver, which cuts your low end and causes a peak in the upper bass response.. That's what your hearing that you like about the Illusion audio driver, objectively speaking. It keeps a lower Q at high volumes due to less t/s parameter shift. That can be hard to find, def true, but there are other ways to skin that cat, once you realize THAT is really the issue.

W7s are a decent design, but both XBL^2 drivers I've run also did better on the lows than the W7 installs I've heard.. The w7 also has very little inductave treatment so it won't "blend" as easily without using a very low crossover compared to your illusion audio subwoofer.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

How do we quantify "goes lower" as that relates to the w7?

Monstrous low-end is usually the complaint about the w7.


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## bose301s (Dec 8, 2008)

rton20s said:


> Unless you're talking about buying your own basket, motor and soft parts then building your own subwoofer, you can get over yourself. Buying a $130 subwoofer from Parts Express doesn't make a build any more DIY than buying a $1000 subwoofer from Illusion audio. The only difference is the price tag.


Exactly, the ONLY difference is the price tag meaning you're spending money for the sake of spending money.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

bassfromspace said:


> How do we quantify "goes lower" as that relates to the w7?
> 
> Monstrous low-end is usually the complaint about the w7.


Sometimes you just wanna be a kid again...there's still a little SPL in most of us.
I don't drive around listening to judging material. In fact...I hate it.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

UNBROKEN said:


> Sometimes you just wanna be a kid again...there's still a little SPL in most of us.
> I don't drive around listening to judging material. In fact...I hate it.


Oh I like to get loud. The w7's were plenty for me. The IDMax seemed louder, but that's with the ear SPL meter.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I had IDMAX 12" V2 or 3, well it didn't cut it for me, I think my Ultimo 12" had more out put then IDMAX, also IDMAX needed a bigger box, I think IDMAX could only take up to 700 w rms at its full potential of XMAX... and that information was provided to my by ID guy that actually builds them!

Another reason why i like Ultimo and C12XL is because of its 11LB,, vs 25-40 LB subs!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bose301s said:


> Exactly, the ONLY difference is the price tag meaning you're spending money for the sake of spending money.


It isn't "for the sake of spending money" if nothing else you have tried meets your needs. 

I don't claim to be any sort of expert, or know that much at all about subwoofer design. All I have is my own experience. I've yet to see another driver, as shallow as the C12XL and requiring as little air space as a C12XL in a sealed enclosure, perform as well as that driver. If they are out there, by all means, list them! I would love to see a list of alternatives that perform as well or better for less money and still meet the same enclosure requiremnts. 

For my own build, I chose a less expensive subwoofer. It has similar depth and enclosure requirement. You can see it in my sig. It performs quite well for me, and I have no plans on changing it. With my personal experience though, I have no doubt that making a switch to a C12XL would be an improvement. 

That being said, I think it is sad that some in here would imply that because someone chooses to use equipment that is expensive, or marketed by a car audio brand that they are less DIYMA worthy than someone who cobbles together a bunch of obscure raw drivers.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rton20s said:


> It isn't "for the sake of spending money" if nothing else you have tried meets your needs.
> 
> I don't claim to be any sort of expert, or know that much at all about subwoofer design. All I have is my own experience. I've yet to see another driver, as shallow as the C12XL and requiring as little air space as a C12XL in a sealed enclosure, perform as well as that driver. If they are out there, by all means, list them! I would love to see a list of alternatives that perform as well or better for less money and still meet the same enclosure requiremnts.
> 
> ...


No one's implying that. DIYMA was about using objective data (and some subjective experiences) to get the best audio experience. Money wasn't an issue.

Guys were running brands just as expensive as Illusion. Think RAAL, Rainbow Reference, Seas, Tru Technology, Audio Technology, Focal Utopia, PHL, etc. This was at a time when manufacturers tried selling us on the ideas that their products were the best. DIYMA worked to provide an alternative.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> It isn't "for the sake of spending money" if nothing else you have tried meets your needs.
> 
> I don't claim to be any sort of expert, or know that much at all about subwoofer design. All I have is my own experience. I've yet to see another driver, as shallow as the C12XL and requiring as little air space as a C12XL in a sealed enclosure, perform as well as that driver. If they are out there, by all means, list them! I would love to see a list of alternatives that perform as well or better for less money and still meet the same enclosure requiremnts.
> 
> ...


That's what DIYMA was about according to NPDANGS original mission statement. To spread knowledge of what SQ was about and how drivers physical parameters matter so you don't end up paying more for a name.. Car audio marketed gear, especially the "SQ" stuff is often WAY overpriced compared to other avenues.

Anyway, if your limited to shallow mount, then your more or less stuck with car audio drivers as very few home audio speakers fit that bill.. Illusion audio C12XL's still aren't a value in that arena. The one I'd be looking at though is the SI BM MKIV. It doesn't have quite the throw, but works in an even smaller box and I bet it performs VERY well.. It's got all the bells and whistles.. Nice quiet suspension, XBL^2, shorting rings, klippel tested.. You can get a pair of those and STILL be under budget for the Illusion audio using the same SQ features and DEF have more dispalcement that way. Even a single is 85% of the displacement capability, same thermal powerhandling and SQ features, for 40% of the price.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bassfromspace said:


> No one's implying that. DIYMA was about using objective data (and some subjective experiences) to get the best audio experience. Money wasn't an issue.
> 
> Guys were running brands just as expensive as Illusion. Think RAAL, Rainbow Reference, Seas, Tru Technology, Audio Technology, Focal Utopia, PHL, etc. This was at a time when manufacturers tried selling us on the ideas that their products were the best. DIYMA worked to provide an alternative.





T3mpest said:


> That's what DIYMA was about according to NPDANGS original mission statement. To spread knowledge of what SQ was about and how drivers physical parameters matter so you don't end up paying more for a name.. Car audio marketed gear, especially the "SQ" stuff is often WAY overpriced compared to other avenues.
> 
> Anyway, if your limited to shallow mount, then your more or less stuck with car audio drivers as very few home audio speakers fit that bill.. Illusion audio C12XL's still aren't a value in that arena. The one I'd be looking at though is the SI BM MKIV. It doesn't have quite the throw, but works in an even smaller box and I bet it performs VERY well.. It's got all the bells and whistles.. Nice quiet suspension, XBL^2, shorting rings, klippel tested.. You can get a pair of those and STILL be under budget for the Illusion audio using the same SQ features and DEF have more dispalcement that way. Even a single is 85% of the displacement capability, same thermal powerhandling and SQ features, for 40% of the price.


OK. I'm all for the approach you two mentioned. I'm all for getting back to the roots of DIYMA. Unfortunately, DIYMA seems to have turned into a bunch of wolf packs seeking out their next prey. They find their next easy target and pounce. Whether we're talking about a particular piece of equipment, or an individual. And yes, I am probably guilty of it as well. 

So please, point me to the objective data (and some subjective experience) to show me how the C12XL isn't worth the going price? I'm truly not trying to instigate. I would love to see a lower cost alternative. 

I think the recommendation for a pair BM MkIV is awesome. Other then the fact that two drivers are required (as you mentioned at a lower cost), that could be a great alternative. Similar air space requirement and even less depth. I'm anxiously awaiting a demo of the Bm MkIV, but I don't know anyone out here in California that has one installed yet.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

bassfromspace said:


> Oh I like to get loud. The w7's were plenty for me. The IDMax seemed louder, but that's with the ear SPL meter.


I wonder how many people that are suggesting against trying the C12XLs have actually hard them. So far I am reading strong comments saying not to try them and that they are not worth it but I do not think anyone that has said that has actually heard them.

DIYMA may have shifted but I still think the focus is relevant, getting the best possible sound which always comes down install after having the best equipment for your needs.

With that said, I have heard a Morel Ultimo 12 that my friend had, along with a long list of subs have owned in the last 2 years and installed, Idmax V3 ported tuned to 30 hz, Fi IB3 18s (pair), Jl 13w7s sealed in about 2cft per sub, 12 w7s ported about 1.85 cft per sub, Fi q 18 4.5cft sealed and lastly had 2 illusion c12xls in about 1cft per sub.

The illusions have been by far my favorite sub I have ever owned or heard. They sound incredible and have the ability to be fun at the same time (impactful bass for our youthful sides). The lows were more enjoyable to me than even the FI q18s, while retaining a flat response up through the response. They are efficient but at the same time can handle gobs of power if desired. They sounded incredible on a Zapco 9.0 and even better on a Zero 1. They are incredibly light and shallow which was important in my application. Lastly for those that say the differences are subtle, that is not the case with the c12xls and they obviously have not heard them. There is an extreme difference and enjoyment. Treat your self and locate someone from the forum or a dealer that has one for demo and go hear for your self.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

T3mpest said:


> That's what DIYMA was about according to NPDANGS original mission statement. To spread knowledge of what SQ was about and how drivers physical parameters matter so you don't end up paying more for a name.. Car audio marketed gear, especially the "SQ" stuff is often WAY overpriced compared to other avenues.
> 
> Anyway, if your limited to shallow mount, then your more or less stuck with car audio drivers as very few home audio speakers fit that bill.. Illusion audio C12XL's still aren't a value in that arena. The one I'd be looking at though is the SI BM MKIV. It doesn't have quite the throw, but works in an even smaller box and I bet it performs VERY well.. It's got all the bells and whistles.. Nice quiet suspension, XBL^2, shorting rings, klippel tested.. You can get a pair of those and STILL be under budget for the Illusion audio using the same SQ features and DEF have more dispalcement that way. Even a single is 85% of the displacement capability, same thermal powerhandling and SQ features, for 40% of the price.


Your suggesting giving up performance though. That is to say you could get a better value purchasing a Honda Accord vs an Acura TL. Perhaps the differences do not matter to you but do to someone else. It is all up to the listener/buyer of what is worth it to them.

If it is me though, I would hate to shy away from a few hundred buck if it is really important to me, and then always be wishing I had the other. Now it is more expensive because of first settling with the lesser. The only way to really know though would be to get your hands on demo vehicles and decide. There is no universal right or wrong about something being "worth it".


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Subs are insanely simple machines. Outside of the amount of air they displace, there's really not much to them.

Differences in the quality of sound heard may lie more with tuning than the tool.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Tnutt19 said:


> I Lastly for those that say the differences are subtle, that is not the case with the c12xls and they obviously have not heard them. There is an extreme difference and enjoyment.


That's just not possible...they look just like brand X, Y and Z on paper so there's no way they perform better....and they cost 3X as much.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> OK. I'm all for the approach you two mentioned. I'm all for getting back to the roots of DIYMA. Unfortunately, DIYMA seems to have turned into a bunch of wolf packs seeking out their next prey. They find their next easy target and pounce. Whether we're talking about a particular piece of equipment, or an individual. And yes, I am probably guilty of it as well.
> 
> So please, point me to the objective data (and some subjective experience) to show me how the C12XL isn't worth the going price? I'm truly not trying to instigate. I would love to see a lower cost alternative.
> 
> I think the recommendation for a pair BM MkIV is awesome. Other then the fact that two drivers are required (as you mentioned at a lower cost), that could be a great alternative. Similar air space requirement and even less depth. I'm anxiously awaiting a demo of the Bm MkIV, but I don't know anyone out here in California that has one installed yet.



You wouldnt' really "need" 2 of the BM's. A single BM is going to get nearly as loud, as in really close and if this is really for SQ, it's goint to get loud enough for that period. I'm just saying 2 BMS are still cheaper and can def move more air at that point so at that level you've got $700 in subs vs 1000 and your 700 setups should outperform it period.. At 1 sub it's a close race with the CXL only really winning in output by a little bit, but losing in box size.. I haven't heard a type R or seen data on it, but subectively, it did have some good reviews and does have the same features that make it good for SQ in the first place, objectively.



If you drop the shallow mount criteria, things open up even more. Dayton Ultimax, TC LMS Ultra (better in every way) and the creative sound CSS subwoofer mentioned earlier, it's suspension is quiet up to 20mm where the C12XL is out of gas anyways, so having the suspension noise around 30mm isn't really too much of a disadvantage as you'll never get a C12XL that far, period.. (XBL^2 drivers lose BL sharply after xmax, so once you hit xmax you'll fry a coil thermally before you exceed it by much or bottom out)

Anyways what you guys like about the Illusion sub is simple, I'm sure it IS a great sub.. XBL^2 gives you linear BL over a long stroke sealed. That keeps T/S in check.. What you need to mimic that is either another XBL^2 driver, I've listed 2 the type R or the SI BM. For non shallow mounts the Creative Sounds sub as well as the LMS ultra both fit the bill. LMS ultra in particular, it's a monster. 

OR use a sub with a fairly low Q and low FS ported tuned low, underhung never hurt anything, but not necessary. A sub like that fits in a small ported box, won't have a peaky response and the port will keep excursion down, which limits the need for a linear BL topology in the first place. The dayton HO is suggested often, over the HF for that exact reason, in a car, the HO is actually more high fidelty than the high fidelity lol it's t/s are more lower q lower fs. My old AV15's fit the bill as well although you can't get those anymore and they are 1000 rms and 22mm xmax. The SSA DCON isnt' bad at all either if you want a budget driver.

The second good thing about the Illusion audio sub is that they have shorting rings in the motor. That linearizes inductance and makes it easier to get your subbass to blend, especially when you use a high crossover point. If your one of those guys who crosses at 50hz anyway, it's not something to worry about. Anyways every sub I listed up top uses shorting rings in the motor except for the ssa dcon, which is also about the cheapest sub I listed as well.

Anyway while the C12Xl is a good driver, people are recommending it without knowing WHY it's a good driver.. Making it a case of "this sub rocks" without being able to reccomend alternatives at another price point that will work nearly as well for a lot less, or even better if the design contraints don't necessitate shallow mounting. Anytime someone thinks they can throw money at a SQ setup to improve it, that's a problem. When you don't know WHY a sub sounds good, you can really get talked into anything. Just my 2c.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

bassfromspace said:


> Subs are insanely simple machines. Outside of the amount of air they displace, there's really not much to them.
> 
> Differences in the quality of sound heard may lie more with tuning than the tool.


It's blatantly obvious that a few in this thread refuse to believe what people that own the XL's have to say. It doesn't seem to matter that many of us have tried multiple other "high end" subs and all agree that this is the best we've ever tried. Our real world experience apparently means nothing. But wait...I thought real world experience with different drivers is what DIYMA was built on?


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

T3mpest said:


> Making it a case of "this sub rocks" without being able to reccomend alternatives at another price point that *will work nearly as well *for a lot less, Anytime someone thinks they can throw money at a SQ setup to improve it, that's a problem. Just my 2c.


You just made my whole point. I don't want "nearly as well", I want the best I can buy and whether you like it or not at the current time this is it. It's not about throwing money at any problems...it's about not settling for "nearly".


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

UNBROKEN said:


> It's blatantly obvious that a few in this thread refuse to believe what people that own the XL's have to say. It doesn't seem to matter that many of us have tried multiple other "high end" subs and all agree that this is the best we've ever tried. Our real world experience apparently means nothing. But wait...I thought real world experience with different drivers is what DIYMA was built on?


Real world experience is definitely applicable here. In this case, we'd be talking about tests. If the specs of this sub are accurate, it really should only perform slightly better than an Alpine Type-R or SI BM.

In the case of subwoofers, there's a direct correlation between objective performance and what you hear.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

UNBROKEN said:


> You just made my whole point. I don't want "nearly as well", I want the best I can buy and whether you like it or not at the current time this is it. It's not about throwing money at any problems...it's about not settling for "nearly".


" Nearly as well" would mean a negligible difference that would not be readily apparent in real world application.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I know it sounds like I am beating a dead horse, but really, I'm not. Yes, I really like every single installation of the C12XL I have heard. But that doesn't mean I am not open to other options. I'm in here to learn, more than anything else. 

I appreciate all of the alternatives that were presented, but I have yet to see one mentioned where there wasn't some sort of compromise included with said alternative. Larger diameter, larger enclosure requirements, vented enclosure requirements, greater depth requirements, *almost* as good in the same enclosure, etc. 

I already have almost as good. This is DIYMA! Show me the lower cost, no compromise alternative.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

bassfromspace said:


> Real world experience is definitely applicable here. In this case, we'd be talking about tests. If the specs of this sub are accurate, it really should only perform slightly better than an Alpine Type-R or SI BM.
> 
> In the case of subwoofers, there's a direct correlation between objective performance and what you hear.


I don't care what the specs say it "should" do. I own one...and I'm telling y'all what it DOES do....specs be damned.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

getting back on topic... Does anyone have a ETA?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't think we have gone off topic. 

And I believe the ETA is...

"...suck it up princess!!"


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> I know it sounds like I am beating a dead horse, but really, I'm not. Yes, I really like every single installation of the C12XL I have heard. But that doesn't mean I am not open to other options. I'm in here to learn, more than anything else.
> 
> I appreciate all of the alternatives that were presented, but I have yet to see one mentioned where there wasn't some sort of compromise included with said alternative. Larger diameter, larger enclosure requirements, vented enclosure requirements, greater depth requirements, *almost* as good in the same enclosure, etc.
> 
> I already have almost as good. This is DIYMA! Show me the lower cost, no compromise alternative.


I guess if your requirment is shallow mount 1000 watts RMS and exactly 18mm of xmax, then it's the ONLY sub that fits the bill at right at 1000 dollars.. If you can live with less than a db of output differnence, which you won't hear, a SI BM can fits the bill has 14mm xmax an even smaller box requirements take just as much power and costs less than half.. It's like having 2 identical cars, one comes with 395hp the other has 400.. Sure one IS faster, but your talking about a difference that nobody is going to notice unless you race them and 400hp wins by a hair.. Cost is 38,000 vs 100,000.. (in this case termlab testing head to head)


If you elimintate the shallow mount requirement and use a bit more airspace you can get a much better sub with several DB's more capable output (about as much as 3-4 CXL's out of a LMS ultra and your saving 200 dollars or so.

Again everything is ALWAYS a compromise with any sub. People aren't choosing the xl becaue they NEED a sealed sub or they NEED a shallow mount. Well some are, but many are being led like lemming to it because it's some be all end all SQ driver, which is BS, point blank. It's a great driver that does certain things very well and in it's application it is probably the best, but at double the cost of it's alternatives, some of which are likely audibly the same performance, it's a ripoff unless you really want that 10% extra displacment you can't hear. It's 14mm vs 18 that's NOT a dealbreaker... Hell the BM goes lower in teh same box size until you reach it's excursion limit, that's a plus for it I suppose lol.

Pick what works for you, but NOT because of what name is on the box. Hell understand WHAT it is your hearing.. Illusion audio didnt' reinvent the wheel here at all. They use the same tech that is in other sub on the market and if you don't the shallow mount their are better choices.. If you have to have shallow mount, have to have the highest shallow mount driver using xbl^2 and shorting rings with the MOST xmax available, then that's the driver for ya.. For everyone else, there are other options.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

A C12XL is not a shallow mount sub. The standard C12 is the shallow mount. Actually an inverted motor that makes it kinda shallow. but that's semantics.
The C12XL is a full size sub...it just happens to not be as deep as some others.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

T3mpest said:


> If you elimintate the shallow mount requirement and use a bit more airspace you can get a much better sub with several DB's more capable output (about as much as 3-4 CXL's out of a LMS ultra and your saving 200 dollars or so.


Hey, I was looking up the LMS Ultra since it's been mentioned, but where are you seeing it for $200 cheaper? Parts-express has it listed for $925.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Hoptologist said:


> Hey, I was looking up the LMS Ultra since it's been mentioned, but where are you seeing it for $200 cheaper? Parts-express has it listed for $925.


My mistake, did that off the top of my head, really thought those were 800ish.. Probably used to be, TC Sounds, Audiopulse, TC sounds (again), lol, they've never been consistent on their name, or their pricing. Regardless, since the XL isnt' shallow mount, assuming you can fit the depth of both, the LMS ultra has 2kw powerhandling, vs 1k for the XL 38mm of xmax as opposed to 18 and is literally the most linear driver ANYONE has ever measured to my knowledge. Several Klippel reports to back that up too. LMS ultras also give you very low f3's in a small box, so it's not going to eat up a bunch of room either.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Depending on how you look at it, the Illusion is compromised too.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

rton20s said:


> I don't think we have gone off topic.
> 
> And I believe the ETA is...
> 
> "...suck it up princess!!"


LMFAO!!! you just stold my boss's saying !

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Well I had a chance to listen to c12xl sub and I felt I love with it right away. Is it expensive hell yea it is. But I need something small of an install and this is it. If I could of fit 2cu box in my trunk than trust me this sub wouldn't be on my list. But after playing my tunes in a guy car that owns one I was so impressed that I just couldn't pass this one up. I love the output and the sound that comes out of that sub. He had it in a 1.2 cu box which is what I have and I was just amazed by the sound and output. That's why I want this sub not because of the hype but because of performance. He ran it at 1500 w rms and it took it without braking a swet! I'm sorry but this was very impressive and I enjoyed it. And since I listen to so much trance and dance music that sub just shined in my ears. I had a smile each time the lows came around I just simply felt in love with it. 

Now it's a waiting game!


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Well I'm glad that you've finally have listened to it for yourself and wish you the best towards getting one of your own.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Coppertone said:


> Well I'm glad that you've finally have listened to it for yourself and wish you the best towards getting one of your own.


Thank you.. and yes same here,, i cant wait... It's like waiting for xmas all over again!


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Does anyone on here knows when these subs will be back in US? Or the waiting people are **** out of luck... ?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

i think its time for a blind folded subwoofer test..from what you guys are saying the Illusion should be able to be identified 100% of the time compared to other lesser subs. I would be willing to bet my life that would not happen.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

^same here!


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm not betting my life, but to say these subs are doing something so extraordinary that they require a new tier in the subwoofer class warfare, is subject to review.

the idea that Illusion is creating speakers that climb on top of the best speakers out there, because they have been priced to those upper echelon heights, is like saying Critical Mass is an even better product because they priced themselves even higher.


I think a lot of the recent Ground Zero/Illusion product reviews glowing in superlatives, is based on that pricing observation.

we've got great reviews from those sellers that are able to justify a larger margin, based on a higher retail baseline, and you kind of expect that.

then the people who paid dearly are also hamming the product up, probably because they are actually really good speakers, and in the higher performance category overall.


but head and shoulders above everything else such that they stand alone, regardless of price point....

smell test.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Demoed for several people again today...all walked away wanting to trade in their subs for an Illusion. That's not coming from me...that's what people said TO me after a demo. 

As far as when they'll be available...they're in production now. I have no idea on when they'll be available but I know these are done in small numbers. If you're not on a list at your local retailer you may wanna get on it....the ones that come in will likely go fast.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I'm on the list and been waiting for one for ages ! lolzzzz


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cajunner said:


> I'm not betting my life, but to say these subs are doing something so extraordinary that they require a new tier in the subwoofer class warfare, is subject to review.
> 
> the idea that Illusion is creating speakers that climb on top of the best speakers out there, because they have been priced to those upper echelon heights, is like saying Critical Mass is an even better product because they priced themselves even higher.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you oughta to give them a listen first eh. Hard to have an opinion on something you have not heard.
That is the invitation to anyone and everyone really, they may not please everyone but I certainly liked them better than any of the other very high end subs I have owned and yes the sound was noticeably different.
The thing that blows everyone away on these is the lows, and no spec sheet comparing driver A to driver B will give you the experience of hearing this. This thing hammers and sounds so good doing it on the lows. As I mentioned already I liked the sound of two of these more more than my FI Q 18 which I loved. I was also skeptical but they were the first subs I truly enjoyed listening to all the time. They never were annoying, they were always pleasing. I think there is a reason why they keep selling out, they sound fantastic! But do not take my word for it, track down someone that has one or two and take a listen for your self.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

cajunner said:


> I'm not betting my life, but to say these subs are doing something so extraordinary that they require a new tier in the subwoofer class warfare, is subject to review.
> 
> the idea that Illusion is creating speakers that climb on top of the best speakers out there, because they have been priced to those upper echelon heights, is like saying Critical Mass is an even better product because they priced themselves even higher.
> 
> ...


I have heard the c12xl in two different cars - both sound quality oriented set ups. I would describe them as clean with the ability to hit hard and player lower than anything i've ever heard. 
I can say for sure - best i have ever heard.
im installing my iDmax 12 here in a bit... I'll let you know how they stack up.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

DLO13 said:


> I have heard the c12xl in two different cars - both sound quality oriented set ups. I would describe them as clean with the ability to hit hard and player lower than anything i've ever heard.
> I can say for sure - best i have ever heard.
> im installing my iDmax 12 here in a bit... I'll let you know how they stack up.


Loved my Idmax v3.
My guess would be a pair of the max 12's will have a little more output but the lows on the illusions were much better than the max. We even played on IB and the illusions sealed dig lower. Although I would not hesitate to run Idmax again, they are great subs, they sound great sealed or ported. You will be really happy I think.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I heard one and I felt in love with it! I want one so bad... I had max and Morel ultimo 12 ". Both sounded great. Max bottom out at 750 w rms @full xmax i had the v2. Ultimo was hungry power sub. It played very nice but it lacked at lows at high volumes. 
I'm not too experienced like some of you. After hearing C12XL it was hands down a subwoofer to my ears. Lows played so nice and loud. It's like having max and ultimo at the same time. Just an Animal!


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Looks like no luck, does anyone have any inside on when this item will be arriving in US? I have emailed Jacob from Orca and I didn't get much of information from him.

Mario,

As stated, there is no ETA. The reason I say this is that the speakers are hand built. This takes time. Knowing that they are in production is a big step towards arrival. 

----
Thanks,
Jacob Brown
Mobile Electronics Technical Support
Direct Line - (805) 978-5122


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

they will be leaving India on July 26th. so looks like Early August!!!!


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## mercury02 (Jul 20, 2014)

I use to rep the Old Illusion Audio and it was made in USA in AZ and pricing in 2002 & 2003 was the same as today(everyone cried it was to expensive) Now its made in India 
same price(Go Figure that out). The design was excellent so as long as they are doing that it should be great overall product.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I can't wait guys woot woot


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

I thought it was always made in India? I thought all the casting stuff had been there the whole time? Maybe I got the story wrong..




mercury02 said:


> I use to rep the Old Illusion Audio and it was made in USA in AZ and pricing in 2002 & 2003 was the same as today(everyone cried it was to expensive) Now its made in India
> same price(Go Figure that out). The design was excellent so as long as they are doing that it should be great overall product.


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## mercury02 (Jul 20, 2014)

They were bought out by a company in UK and production was moved to India
once the buy out happened Illusion disappeared like a month or two later
like 2004. Someone tried distribution back in 2008 or 2009 went no where 
Then Orca stepped in 2012 for Distribution 
Alma Gates Grandson ran it for SQ in a explorer it was in car audio mag I may still have that issue. I wish I would have kept some of the equipment I sold a pair of 15in carbon series I was crying but I needed money for other stuff easy come easy go


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Ah, cool, thanks for the info!!


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## mercury02 (Jul 20, 2014)

I still have old brochures and pricing I believe. I keep something from all my companies 
I have rep in past years starting from 1995.
had Crystal mobile sound/GS Redline/Hollywood soundlabs/ Monolithic/ Harrison Labs/
Dennon/ Audison & Hertz / Zapco/ Rainbow/ Sinfoni/ Audio Development/ DLS
Myron & Davis/ Goertz cable/ Hugfen cable/ minor owner(no shares just a lot of my money invested in it and time) in Sonic Soundlabs subwoofer co out of FL
Imported under JDSP Audio Vibe(UK)/ Macrom/ Phonocar/ Next Audio/ Mac Audio
SPL Dynamics
for 2014 have Mercury Car Audio/ Linear Power/ Addictive Audio/ Shok Industries/
RE Audio/ Reikken Batteries International Manager


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

quick question folks. I just noticed that there may be a typo in the catalog and the website. what is the voice coil configuration? the catalog states single 4 ohm, but the website states dual 2 ohm voice coil...


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

shutmdown said:


> quick question folks. I just noticed that there may be a typo in the catalog and the website. what is the voice coil configuration? the catalog states single 4 ohm, but the website states dual 2 ohm voice coil...



IIRC, C12 is single 4 and C12XL is dual 2.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

shutmdown said:


> quick question folks. I just noticed that there may be a typo in the catalog and the website. what is the voice coil configuration? the catalog states single 4 ohm, but the website states dual 2 ohm voice coil...


2 different subs, the one with the magnet and shallow mount could handle 600w rms. 
C12XL could do over 1k rms 


So is it really going to take them that long to ship it to US? gosh i want it even more now ! 3 + months and counting lol


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

papasin said:


> IIRC, C12 is single 4 and C12XL is dual 2.


thank you richard


quickaudi07 said:


> 2 different subs, the one with the magnet and shallow mount could handle 600w rms.
> C12XL could do over 1k rms
> 
> 
> So is it really going to take them that long to ship it to US? gosh i want it even more now ! 3 + months and counting lol


i know they're different subs.....
if you look on their catalogue it shows a single 4 ohm voice coil.
Charlotte Ferguson - Illusion Audio Catalogue


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

shutmdown said:


> i know they're different subs.....
> if you look on their catalogue it shows a single 4 ohm voice coil.
> Charlotte Ferguson - Illusion Audio Catalogue


Our Website - Carbon C12 XL | Illusion Audio
Our Tech Sheet - http://www.illusionaudio-america.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/CarbonC12XL.pdf

And if you look at the "catalog" that you posted, in the subwoofer specifications chart, it shows that the C12XL is 4 ohm with VC wired in series. 

So, small typo in an early catalog.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

cobb2819 said:


> Our Website - Carbon C12 XL | Illusion Audio
> Our Tech Sheet - http://www.illusionaudio-america.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/CarbonC12XL.pdf
> 
> And if you look at the "catalog" that you posted, in the subwoofer specifications chart, it shows that the C12XL is 4 ohm with VC wired in series.
> ...



When are these subs be in US? is it going to take another 4 months to get one?

Please provide some information if you have any...

Thank you


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

Anyone in the Seattle area have one of these? I am very interested in listening to one


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Architect7 said:


> Anyone in the Seattle area have one of these? I am very interested in listening to one


Or you can come on down to hang out at one of the two events listed below. There should be a few vehicles with them.  

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/[email protected]

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...fornia-finals-9-21-2014-san-louis-obispo.html


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Papasin ur not helping lol.


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

papasin said:


> Or you can come on down to hang out at one of the two events listed below. There should be a few vehicles with them.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/[email protected]
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...fornia-finals-9-21-2014-san-louis-obispo.html


Dang, I have clients in SFO too, Milpitas would be realistic but I can't travel that week.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I wish there was someone near me with one. Even though I had issues with Illusion the sub looks very promising on the other hand and I would love to hear one. Just so hesitant on shelling out that kind of money for another ash tray.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

LaserSVT said:


> I wish there was someone near me with one. Even though I had issues with Illusion the sub looks very promising on the other hand and I would love to hear one. Just so hesitant on shelling out that kind of money for another ash tray.


As you see there is no subs on sale on diy. These subs are phenomenal! Sq and spl. I heard one and had a chance to play music to see how it sounds. All I got to say is.... anyone that has o e does not want to let it go. Anyone that has one will tell you it's worth it. Anyone that has will not sell it! What does that tell you. ??? It's a monster that everyone that owns one had a respect and loves them!


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I love my c12xl. Since I like bass so much I consider it the best single purchase for car audio that I've made. Some say subs just move air but you can hear a difference between subs and I think this one sounds sweet.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Just thought I would throw this link in here... It's what I like about the XL subs.. This was a single 12 in a sealed enclosure with 1k watts in a jetta.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

anyone have any updates on the ETA


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

They've been discontinued. But if anyone is interested I'll sell mine for $3k:laugh::laugh::laugh:

JK


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Have they really ?? Or are you bs-ing??? 
Does anyone have any input or heard anything ?


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Golden Ear said:


> They've been discontinued. But if anyone is interested I'll sell mine for $3k:laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> JK



JK = Just Kidding

(Since it seems that wasn't obvious)


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

They aren't discontinued, we are still waiting to hear when they hit the states..


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

^ what they said


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Thank you, I didn't if your being serious or what J/k could be a joke but at the same time it may not be..

Thanks for the update guys.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Has anyone heard any news on these guys or any shipment date?? 

Still waiting and counting nerve racking moments!


----------



## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I have to wonder why the delay has been so long. Did they discover production quality issues? Is one of their suppliers closed? Can they not find someplace to make the drivers? 
It seems that if you have a $1000 a piece speaker that everyone wants then you should make the damn things. Or is illusion about to repeat what they did years ago?


----------



## "that boy asad" (Feb 15, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> Has anyone heard any news on these guys or any shipment date??
> 
> Still waiting and counting nerve racking moments!


Was told by my local dealer that they have just had a shipment go out of India


----------



## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Talking about these, right? 



This isn't my install, took the picture at Heat Wave. Anyone know the owner?


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Looks like an SIS install.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

LaserSVT said:


> Looks like an SIS install.


Mobile Toys Inc.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Have u seen all these amps in the back to power it lol.. great looking install


----------



## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

quickaudi07 said:


> Have u seen all these amps in the back to power it lol.. great looking install


Have it seen it....pffft


----------



## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

https://vimeo.com/105506294


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Sorry couldn't help it


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Wow that had to be a very expensive setup!


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Ok I'm just asking for 1 sub not 4... can u send me one ?


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

"that boy asad" said:


> Was told by my local dealer that they have just had a shipment go out of India


can anyone confirm this?


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Please any input would be great... 4 months plus still waiting.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

shutmdown said:


> can anyone confirm this?


What I heard just a few days ago was no new word.. But, cobb202020202234 might be able to tell us... Jacob?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

how much do they retail for?


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> how much do they retail for?


Like $999


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Like $999


Which is right in the "sweet spot." Because $1,000 for a single subwoofer would be ridiculous.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I know many of u like this sub, but there has to be more to the story if they been out of stock for 4 months.


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Which is right in the "sweet spot." Because $1,000 for a single subwoofer would be ridiculous.


Now this statement caused me to spit out the juice that I was drinking. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Which is right in the "sweet spot." Because $1,000 for a single subwoofer would be ridiculous.


HAHAHa thats the same price for Ultimo that people pay ! thats too funny


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Are they using a neo motor? or is it because they are small boutique?


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Coppertone said:


> Now this statement caused me to spit out the juice that I was drinking. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


You're welcome...?


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cubdenno said:


> Are they using a neo motor? or is it because they are small boutique?


They do use a neo motor and "small boutique" is probably relative. Only ORCA/Illusion and their supplier really know why they don't have drivers ready to ship yet.


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

rton20s said:


> They do use a neo motor and "small boutique" is probably relative. Only ORCA/Illusion and their supplier really know why they don't have drivers ready to ship yet.


I was just curious as to the price for a 12" sub. Had to be a reason.

If they are using Neodymium as the magnet material, then that explains a bit of the price.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

If you had a chance to listen to one,, than please do so... I heard one and felt in love!

Also some of the members on her like Bing, was pushing close 1500-1800 w rms to it without any issues! which to me is crazy...

The best part is, its only 16LB!


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

quickaudi07 said:


> If you had a chance to listen to one,, than please do so... I heard one and felt in love!
> 
> Also some of the members on her like Bing, was pushing close 1500-1800 w rms to it without any issues! which to me is crazy...
> 
> The best part is, its only 16LB!


I may pick one up some day when the next coming of Jesus Christ in subwoofer form comes and all those that follow that religon "upgrades". It's how I have got to listen to a lot of subs without breaking my bank. Then sell them off.

The 16 pounds is very nice though!!!


----------



## richiec77 (Sep 11, 2011)

10.58 lbs. Even lighter...probably the best lightweight sub out there.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Ill be running the 10 in in my car in a ported box... 

And yes, the magnet material is Neodymium.


----------



## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

SouthSyde said:


> Ill be running the 10 in in my car in a ported box...
> 
> And yes, the magnet material is Neodymium.



Yeah baby. Ported!! Chad ain't afraid


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

BigRed said:


> Yeah baby. Ported!! Chad ain't afraid


Waiting for the BH5, but I'll shoot ya a pic when its done... It looks CRAY!!!


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

gckless said:


> Talking about these, right?
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't my install, took the picture at Heat Wave. Anyone know the owner?


I think its some guy name Chris Pate, owner of Mobile Toys Inc. in college station....


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

That is very nice install ^^ and how the F did he get them when we cant get any !~


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

quickaudi07 said:


> That is very nice install ^^ and how the F did he get them when we cant get any !~


Probably done before they sold out.. just a wild guess


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I guess that explains


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Probably done before they sold out.. just a wild guess


Probably.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

cobb2819 said:


> Probably.


That's it? No insight on when these could be arriving?


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^. X2


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> That's it? No insight on when these could be arriving?





Coppertone said:


> ^^^. X2


Nope.


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Ok.......................


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

This sucks ! 2 hat do you guys think will be a next sub in line to replace c12xl? What would you all recommend ?


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

I wish that I had an answer for you concerning that. For me I'm just going to run with my Illusion C12 until it goes poof.


----------



## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

quickaudi07 said:


> This sucks ! 2 hat do you guys think will be a next sub in line to replace c12xl? What would you all recommend ?


SI bm mkIV. Get two, save $300, have more cone area, and use the same airspace as 1


----------



## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

^winning


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> I was just curious as to the price for a 12" sub. Had to be a reason.


Because they know there is an abundance of people out there with more money than brains.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Jesus Christ said:


> Because they know there is an abundance of people out there with more money than brains.


Very true, but there is a problem because i don't have either  lol no brain - i keep on spending on car audio - and no brain cuz i keep on spending hahaha 

WTF you live only once.. Enjoy it while you can, and do what makes you happy..


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^. I agree about do what makes you happy as long as you are happy afterwards.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Look what it says on the bottom of my sig... if you thi k your done... well its just the beginning lol... true words and I think that's for everyone on here


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Speaking strictly for myself, you are absolutely right lol.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Dear Jesus,
Lord, please help me to understand people who troll. Lord, I know this forum is full of people that care about each other and want to learn. I try hard to be one of those people. Your word speaks of peace. Please help me to have peace in the midst of comments that are typed in malice and with intentions of stirring up drama. Jesus, the interwebz are such a difficult place sometimes. I ask that you help me to be a good example and temper my replies. And, Lord, please let me know which posts to comment on and which posts to let pass. 
I ask these things your your holy name, Amen..






Jesus Christ said:


> Because they know there is an abundance of people out there with more money than brains.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Joey, you make me laugh  its 2 am and im laughing while sipping on some beer


----------



## ben54b (May 30, 2014)

Nice call joey. People should stay out of threads they don't want to be in. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Dear Jesus,
> Lord, please help me to understand people who troll. Lord, I know this forum is full of people that care about each other and want to learn. I try hard to be one of those people. Your word speaks of peace. Please help me to have peace in the midst of comments that are typed in malice and with intentions of stirring up drama. Jesus, the interwebz are such a difficult place sometimes. I ask that you help me to be a good example and temper my replies. And, Lord, please let me know which posts to comment on and which posts to let pass.
> I ask these things your your holy name, Amen..


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

jOey is the official DIYMA winner for this weekend. If your prayer weren't so long, it would be sig worthy.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Joey is a cool guy.. and I live in IL and got him something


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

I stand by my statement, it's just a sub. If you need to spend a thousand dollars to get good sound from the least important driver in your system I cringe to think what you must be spending on the rest of your drivers and other equipment.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Jesus Christ said:


> I stand by my statement, it's just a sub. If you need to spend a thousand dollars to get good sound from the least important driver in your system I cringe to think what you must be spending on the rest of your drivers and other equipment.


I understand your point, as you have made it very clear, but the title of this thread isn't "should I spend 1k on a new sub", so you are trolling. 

This is a discussion about a popular, highly regarded SQ sub that has a retail of $999 that the manufacturer is apparently unable to make, or hasn't for more than 4 months, but won't tell anyone why. Hmmmmm, how would warranty work in this case???


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> the title of this thread isn't "should I spend 1k on a new sub", so you are trolling.


I'm also not the one who initially brought up price or whether or not they're worth it. It's the nature of a forum, threads rarely stay strictly on topic.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

quickaudi07 said:


> Joey is a cool guy.. and I live in IL and got him something



Yes, yes you did! Thank you!!! (don't forget to PM me..)


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

I asked about that too, not because I needed one warrantied, but because in my experience they have a shelf somewhere with drivers reserved for warranty work. We were unable to get one of those, but it was neither confirmed nor denied that said shelf exists...





Niebur3 said:


> Hmmmmm, how would warranty work in this case???


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> I understand your point, as you have made it very clear, but the title of this thread isn't "should I spend 1k on a new sub", so you are trolling.
> 
> This is a discussion about a popular, highly regarded SQ sub that has a retail of $999 that the manufacturer is apparently unable to make, or hasn't for more than 4 months, but won't tell anyone why. Hmmmmm, how would warranty work in this case???


Didn't realise you lived in communist China. I thought people were allowed to express their POV freely. I see no trolling, just a POV!


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

captainscarlett said:


> Didn't realise you lived in communist China. I thought people were allowed to express their POV freely. I see no trolling, just a POV!


Re read the opening question here...

Does anyone have an idea or clue when is C12XL will be out again.. IV been out of sub for close to 2 months now... I want my new sub! 

Help is appreciated 

OP bought a sub and is asking if any of the industry insiders may have any helpful info on whats going on with the shipment of this sub.

No where did he event hint that he wanted POV from people as to if the sub he bought was worth buying, or even if there is another choice he should look it.

Its called...stay on topic people. Has nothing to do with Communism.


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> Re read the opening question here...
> 
> Does anyone have an idea or clue when is C12XL will be out again.. IV been out of sub for close to 2 months now... I want my new sub!
> 
> ...


I've read the question on page (1), but we're now on page (8) and the 'thread' seems to have deviated into all sorts of POV's and comments. That's just what happens with some threads. Don't see the point in spitting the dummy over it.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

There is no way I will pay retail for that sub. 2 i heard it myself and I just simply love the sound of it. 3 I love music and quality of sound. Can other subs do the same job?? He'll yea they can but a lot has to come along with it. I like c12xl for few reasons I could throw **** load of power without worry about blowing this bad boy up. 
And main of all it works great in a small box! And on top of it it's between 10-16lb... what more can you really ask for ???? To me all of that on a combination of of price and lb and performance is worth 1k $ now did I pay 1k $ for it...??? Is of course is another question and another subject


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> No where did he event hint that he wanted POV from people as to if the sub he bought was worth buying, or even *if there is another choice he should look it.*
> Its called...stay on topic people. Has nothing to do with Communism.





miniSQ said:


> its a sub...it moves air when power is applied...*pick another one*...or wait....but try not to let it get you so down


Pot....kettle.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Jesus Christ said:


> Pot....kettle.


I was responding to another poster who i believe was saying he did not want to wait, not the OP. And i was not commenting on the sub in question.


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> I was responding to another poster who i believe was saying he did not want to wait, not the OP. And i was not commenting on the sub in question.


Then why did you quote the OP in your post?


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Why you guys arguing??? it's fun to see either way and who has a better input heheh...


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

quickaudi07 said:


> Why you guys arguing???


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Jesus Christ said:


> Then why did you quote the OP in your post?


 I apparently was confused, I thought that comment I quoted was someone responding to the op..someone who was frustrated in the delay.

My apologies to the OP.


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> This sucks ! 2 hat do you guys think will be a next sub in line to replace c12xl? What would you all recommend ?


So, there is no equivalent to the C12XL? I find this hard to believe, but it's good because a new benchmark seems to have been established for other manufacturers to follow.


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> So, there is no equivalent to the C12XL?


I guess it depends on what criteria you use to define equivalent. If you're looking for a 10 pound 12" sub that works in a reasonably small box and costs $1000 then no, you're probably not going to find an equivalent. If you're just looking for a sub capable of good sound there are lots of options.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

So, let's take price out of the equation Jesus. Can you let us a subwoofer that you would consider an equivalent at any price point? (Output, weight, power handling, enclosure size, overall performance, etc.)


----------



## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

rton20s said:


> So, let's take price out of the equation Jesus. Can you let us a subwoofer that you would consider an equivalent at any price point? (Output, weight, power handling, enclosure size, overall performance, etc.)


There's not many out there that will compete with the weight, but a w12gti works well in a similarly sized enclosure, will handle more power and should have similar performance overall. If we throw the small enclosure out the window there are drivers like the Aura NS18 and 1808, JBL 2269, B&C 21sw152, McCauley 6174 etc. Again, if you're looking for an exact match you're probably not going to find it but that can be said about just about any sub. I'm not saying the Illusion is a bad sub, it's light, works well in a small enclosure and has reasonably low inductance, but it's still just a sub, not the second coming of Jes.....well me I guess.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Some people can hear a difference between subs, it's not a matter of them "working well" but sounding well. Those of us with "more money than sense" get to enjoy that. It's not a matter of more money than sense, it's a matter of liking what you hear and being willing to pay for it. Obviously you have more cents than money


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

I will throw in a couple more subs.

Lab 12

LMS-R 12

SBP 12 if you can get one!

SI MkIV

Though the LMS is not going to blend nearly as easily. What I have found is the perceived audiophile subs outside of a car generally would be used as a midbass. So in a car, the actual low end does not overwhelm which allows easier integration.

As for difference, once again, any audible difference could be measured. So its either FR, level or distortion that makes a difference in the sound.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I think the fact that the C12XL is as capable as it is in such a relatively small enclosure is the largest part of it's appeal. Who knows? Maybe I am wrong? Maybe people just like carbon fiber cones and neodymium magnets? 

The W12GTi MkII is certainly a capable subwoofer. Probably one of the best at the current pricing out there. And yes, JBL does recommend a 1.0 cf enclosure. But depth can most certainly be an issue for some people. With a depth of 10 1/4", the W12 just isn't quite as flexible with mounting options. 

And I am sorry, but when we are talking about a 12" subwoofer I just have to completely dismiss the collection of 18" and 21" drivers you recommended as alternatives. 

As you said, the C12XL most certainly isn't any sort of "second coming." But I haven't personally heard another driver that is capable of as digging as deep, blending as well and handling power in such a small (shallowish) enclosure at any price. If such a beast existed at a lower price point, you can guarantee it would be the current forum boner. For now, I'm sticking with my Arc Black which for me was my best option at a lower price point. 

cubdenno... I haven't been fortunate enough to experience any of the subs you've listed, but I would certainly love to. I've been really wanting to hear the SI BM MkIV, but don't know anyone near me that has one yet. While I know it plays clean and low in an even smaller enclosure, do you think it could really keep up in terms of shear output provided by a C12XL?


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I think the fact that the C12XL is as capable as it is in such a relatively small enclosure is the largest part of it's appeal. Who knows? Maybe I am wrong? *Maybe people just like carbon fiber cones and neodymium magnets? *
> *Hell yes!!!*
> 
> The W12GTi MkII is certainly a capable subwoofer. Probably one of the best at the current pricing out there. And yes, JBL does recommend a 1.0 cf enclosure. But depth can most certainly be an issue for some people. With a depth of 10 1/4", the W12 just isn't quite as flexible with mounting options.
> ...


Aside from the price, I have seen zero specs on the C12XL. So if they have equal sensitivities in the same sized enclosure but the C12XL has more Xmax, then the C12XL should have more output capability.

Plus I don't compete. So add that into the equation in weighing my opinion as relevant.


----------



## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

Jesus Christ said:


> There's not many out there that will compete with the weight, but a w12gti works well in a similarly sized enclosure, will handle more power and should have similar performance overall. If we throw the small enclosure out the window there are drivers like the Aura NS18 and 1808, JBL 2269, B&C 21sw152, McCauley 6174 etc. Again, if you're looking for an exact match you're probably not going to find it but that can be said about just about any sub. I'm not saying the Illusion is a bad sub, it's light, works well in a small enclosure and has reasonably low inductance, but it's still just a sub, not the second coming of Jes.....well me I guess.


Have you heard the sub in question yet or are you just speculating?
I have heard the W12GTI and it was not impressive at all, not even near to the same ball park.
Are you just looking at discrediting this sub or do you have some tangible results to share? I ask because I have not seen anything constructive that would offer a real amount of help, just speculation that you think it is over priced and is just providing bass, so there has to be a lot of other better subs out there or equivalent. Your lack of detail and tangible results leads me to believe you have not even heard the C12xl which leads me to the question, how can you be so one sided without even have heard it? This shows me your opinion on pretty much everything would not be worth anything. Help me understand your perspective please so we can see it for what it is worth.


----------



## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> I will throw in a couple more subs.
> 
> Lab 12
> 
> ...


You are then missing one of the attributtes of the C12XL that everyone falls in love with. The ability for it to reproduce the lows is exceptional and keeps up with good 18s. At the same time it is very easy to integrate into a good front stage. Hence the reason for the hype, everyone that has heard it has been impressed.
The small foot print is simply an added bonus that makes it very easy to integrate into about any install thanks to the shallow depth.


----------



## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> Aside from the price, I have seen zero specs on the C12XL. So if they have equal sensitivities in the same sized enclosure but the C12XL has more Xmax, then the C12XL should have more output capability.
> 
> Plus I don't compete. So add that into the equation in weighing my opinion as relevant.


So you provided several comparable drivers and have not heard or even seen specs of the C12XL? How were you able to provide comparable drivers then? The specs are not hard to find, they are on their website and you can download full specs on the tech spec sheet.
Carbon C12 XL | Illusion Audio


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Tnutt19 said:


> Have you heard the sub in question yet or are you just speculating?
> I have heard the W12GTI and it was not impressive at all, not even near to the same ball park.
> Are you just looking at discrediting this sub or do you have some tangible results to share? I ask because I have not seen anything constructive that would offer a real amount of help, just speculation that you think it is over priced and is just providing bass, so there has to be a lot of other better subs out there or equivalent. Your lack of detail and tangible results leads me to believe you have not even heard the C12xl which leads me to the question, how can you be so one sided without even have heard it? This shows me your opinion on pretty much everything would not be worth anything. Help me understand your perspective please so we can see it for what it is worth.


:lurk: 

Kelvin


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> You are then missing one of the attributtes of the C12XL that everyone falls in love with. * The ability for it to reproduce the lows is exceptional and keeps up with good 18s*. At the same time it is very easy to integrate into a good front stage. Hence the reason for the hype, everyone that has heard it has been impressed.
> The small foot print is simply an added bonus that makes it very easy to integrate into about any install thanks to the shallow depth.


How does it beat the laws of physics?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> So you provided several comparable drivers and have not heard or even seen specs of the C12XL? How were you able to provide comparable drivers then? The specs are not hard to find, they are on their website and you can download full specs on the tech spec sheet.
> Carbon C12 XL | Illusion Audio


All I questioned was the price tag for a 12" sub. Once I was told its got a Neo motor and carbon fiber cone... That comes with a price. Add in a probable boutique price as the quantities purchased are in al likelyhood low as compared to a more mainstream driver.

It's an electro-mechanical device. Or rather... It's just a speaker. Apparently designed with a low fs and designed to work in small enclosures. Again, to me.. Just a sub. 

Again, I don't require a small sealed sub that in all likelyhood, in a small sealed enclosure, starts rolling off at 70 hertz (+/-10 hertz).


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> How does it beat the laws of physics?


Because it plays lows as well as some 18s it is defying the law of physics?
My 550I was faster than my much smaller IS350. No laws of Physics being defied there.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cubdenno said:


> Again, I don't require a small sealed sub that in all likelyhood, in a small sealed enclosure, starts rolling off at 70 hertz (+/-10 hertz).


The last time I measured with an RTA, my Black 12 actually had an increase in output *below* 30 Hz in-car before EQ. And from all accounts, the C12XL is just as, if not more capable on the bottom end. Assuming that the subwoofer begin to roll off at 70 Hz in a small sealed enclosure is not very accurate in my experience.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> All I questioned was the price tag for a 12" sub. Once I was told its got a Neo motor and carbon fiber cone... That comes with a price. Add in a probable boutique price as the quantities purchased are in al likelyhood low as compared to a more mainstream driver.
> 
> It's an electro-mechanical device. Or rather... It's just a speaker. Apparently designed with a low fs and designed to work in small enclosures. Again, to me.. Just a sub.
> 
> Again, I don't require a small sealed sub that in all likelyhood, in a small sealed enclosure, starts rolling off at 70 hertz (+/-10 hertz).


The problem is you are providing alternatives without even knowing what you are comparing it too. How could I provide someone an alternative to an M5 if I have never driven one and am unaware of the specs? A Honda Accord is a comparable size car, so it should be comparable right. An Acura TL type S is also a sports car so it should be comparable right?

You see the issue here. It is hard to compare drivers to it and give recommendation when you are unfamiliar with the product.

Also you did offer other alternate drivers did you not? You did not just argue the price, you gave about 4 substitutes.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

rton20s said:


> The last time I measured with an RTA, my Black 12 actually had an increase in output *below* 30 Hz in-car before EQ. And from all accounts, the C12XL is just as, if not more capable on the bottom end. Assuming that the subwoofer begin to roll off at 70 Hz in a small sealed enclosure is not very accurate in my experience.


My reply is regarding out of a vehicle measurement. 

Most small sealed enclosure subs start rolling off in the 60-80 hertz range. It's why they mesh so well in a vehicle because the 12db/oct roll off matches very nicely with the vessel gain in a vehicle.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> Because it plays lows as well as some 18s it is defying the law of physics?
> My 550I was faster than my much smaller IS350. No laws of Physics being defied there.


Which 18's? A pro audio driver?

By cone area alone, most 18's are going to outperform any 12.

The thing a 12 has going for it are physical size and enclosure requirements. More vehicle friendly.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> The problem is you are providing alternatives without even knowing what you are comparing it too. How could I provide someone an alternative to an M5 if I have never driven one and am unaware of the specs? A Honda Accord is a comparable size car, so it should be comparable right. An Acura TL type S is also a sports car so it should be comparable right?
> 
> You see the issue here. It is hard to compare drivers to it and give recommendation when you are unfamiliar with the product.
> 
> Also you did offer other alternate drivers did you not? You did not just argue the price, you gave about 4 substitutes.


Its. A. Speaker.

Using cars as a comparison is just silly. And using luxury cars vs economy cars is even more silly. Compare two vehicles that are designed to the same thing if you are going to try that as a reference. Say Ford 3/4 ton pick up vs a Dodge 3/4 ton pick up. That would be closer and even then still wrong.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> Its. A. Speaker.
> 
> Using cars as a comparison is just silly. And using luxury cars vs economy cars is even more silly. Compare two vehicles that are designed to the same thing if you are going to try that as a reference. Say Ford 3/4 ton pick up vs a Dodge 3/4 ton pick up. That would be closer and even then still wrong.


But your saying a sub is a sub, when in actuality subs are designed very differently and use very different parts. The example is relevant, you can not compare something you know nothing about. Clearly you see it with trucks, how can you not see it with speakers? And the example with the cars was very relevant, you just do not get it. You were referring that a sub is a sub, thus a car is a car. The point is there are many factors that go into making up the makeup of the performance of a car just like there is with speakers.
I have tried over a dozen subs and each had its own sound, strengths and weaknesses. I am having a hard time understanding how you feel confident providing alternatives and advice when you know nothing about it. You yourself said you have never seen the spec sheet, yet you were quick to offer your opinion. How can you do such without neither hearing it or heaven forbid you look at the spec sheet for an idea?


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> Which 18's? A pro audio driver?
> 
> By cone area alone, most 18's are going to outperform any 12.
> 
> The thing a 12 has going for it are physical size and enclosure requirements. More vehicle friendly.


That depends on your definition of out perform now doesnt it.
I preferred the lows more on the c12xl than both the Ib318's and Fi Q 18. Not to mention the upper bass frequencies and ability to blend with the front stage. Once again, it depends on your definition of outperform, a bass head has a different idea of outperforming than does an audiophile right?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> But your saying a sub is a sub, when in actuality subs are designed very differently and use very different parts. The example is relevant, you can not compare something you know nothing about. Clearly you see it with trucks, how can you not see it with speakers? And the example with the cars was very relevant, you just do not get it. You were referring that a sub is a sub, thus a car is a car. The point is there are many factors that go into making up the makeup of the performance of a car just like there is with speakers.
> I have tried over a dozen subs and each had its own sound, strengths and weaknesses. I am having a hard time understanding how you feel confident providing alternatives and advice when you know nothing about it. You yourself said you have never seen the spec sheet, yet you were quick to offer your opinion. How can you do such without neither hearing it or heaven forbid you look at the spec sheet for an idea?


You brought the car is a car comparison which I said is silly.

You are using a subwoofer to reproduce frequencies say 20-80 hertz. (2 octaves). Not as a serving tray or a wheel replacement. 

You want distortion that is within the realm of inaudibility in the frequencies reproduced. And mind you we are very tolerant of distortion in subwoofers.

Add in that the frequencies are more a form of pressurization. 

We can keep hashing this out if you want. 
I question any high dollar subwoofer if I can't determine why it's priced accordingly. That's why I asked. I was given, Neo motor, carbon fiber and it's a boutique brand. That all makes it a more expensive driver than a comparable ferrite motored paper coned sub boofer.

But saying it performs magic. That is when I will call BS.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> You brought the car is a car comparison which I said is silly.
> 
> You are using a subwoofer to reproduce frequencies say 20-80 hertz. (2 octaves). Not as a serving tray or a wheel replacement.
> 
> ...


What is to hash out? 
What is silly to me is offering advice of alternative drivers when you have not heard or do not know anything about what you are offering the alternative for.
Your opinion does not hold any weight since you have not heard said driver and had not even read the specs on it prior to adding your two cents.
No one said it was magical, however it is hysterical how right you feel you are when all your arguments are pure speculation.
I on the other hand have touched one, smelled it, felt it, seen it and heard it along with many other capable drivers and therefore can offer a constructive opinion that does not rely on the merits of speculation. Chances are that each of my observations will be supported by others that have also had the chance to listen to one, therefore also giving them a valid opinion.
So yes once again, I find it silly that you are so passionate about something you admit to knowing nothing about. Or did you have something tangible/constructive to add?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> *That depends on your definition of out perform now doesnt it.*I preferred the lows more on the c12xl than both the Ib318's and Fi Q 18. Not to mention the upper bass frequencies and ability to blend with the front stage. Once again, it depends on your definition of outperform, a bass head has a different idea of outperforming than does an audiophile right?


Sigh... Out performs. How are we going to provide a metric in which to compare another subwoofer to it. What if I show you a sub that has superior numbers than what you have but you like yours better? 

All I was asking was why the $1000 dollar price tag. And the question was asked to provide some other high performance 12" subs. So I offered some. 4 of them.



Subjective vs objective in the SPL vs audiophile. That's another discussion.

I am glad you like your purchase, when I come back out to AZ for work, I will let you know. Hopefully we can meet, have a beer, and audition your sub to me. I will be happy to hear a C12XL. 

Hey man, it's cool to agree to disagree that you find value in a 1000 dollar sub, and I don't. Priorities are different. musical tastes are different etc... 

I love the look of the sub in question. I like the idea that it weighs under 12 pounds. And apparently it performs fantastically amazing.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Tnutt19 said:


> What is to hash out?
> What is silly to me is offering advice of alternative drivers when you have not heard or do not know anything about what you are offering the alternative for.
> Your opinion does not hold any weight since you have not heard said driver and had not even read the specs on it prior to adding your two cents.
> No one said it was magical, however it is hysterical how right you feel you are when all your arguments are pure speculation.
> ...


OK you win.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

cubdenno said:


> Sigh... Out performs. How are we going to provide a metric in which to compare another subwoofer to it. What if I show you a sub that has superior numbers than what you have but you like yours better?
> 
> All I was asking was why the $1000 dollar price tag. And the question was asked to provide some other high performance 12" subs. So I offered some. 4 of them.
> 
> ...


Well just to make sure we are on the same page, my original statement was keep up, and I was referring to in terms of low end. As far as outperforms, I do not see it being louder than good 18s, but I do see it having the ability to still outperform them as it did in my last install.

I never referenced the price as that is in the eye of the beholder. How can I argue if the price is or is not worth it. To each their own. 

I do however think if you get a chance to hear one you will be impressed. It is a very musical sub that has the ability to hit hard and sound really good doing it.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

I want one now... Lol


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

SouthSyde said:


> Ill be running the 10 in in my car in a ported box...


When will you have it all set up and running? I'm extremely on the fence between getting an Illusion 12 XL or Gladen SQL for my next ported setup. Your listening impressions could play a key role in helping me decide. Please keep me updated


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> I want one now... Lol


There is a reason why I'm waiting so f - ing long lol


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

This is fun to read... I really enjoy this. I heard the sub. I seen it. And I want it. I heard few subs in my life time and this is a #1 sub for my application and my needs. 
A lot of people have them and anyone that does have it won't sell it. There is a reason behind it all. And it's not because how it looks but how it performs  

Well I won't stop you guys now. .. please enjoy yourself and be good to each other  after all is what everyone want, and I want my C12XL!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

quickaudi07 said:


> There is a reason why I'm waiting so f - ing long lol


Because you don't know any better? 



quickaudi07 said:


> A lot of people have them and anyone that does have it won't sell it.


I have seen one, ONE, come up for sale used. And it wasn't because the owner wanted something else, it was that he had more (in quantity) than what he needed. I probably should have picked that one up.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

i just wish that the people at ORCA would let their loyal customers know what the issue is instead of giving us the generic answer "they're being made" . A little bit of honesty goes a long way.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I agree with you ^^^^^


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Also yes I seen it up for sale. It was sold in minutes of posting time.! I was little to late.


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## 727south (Jul 21, 2009)

If i win the lottery this weekend i will have 3 c12xl in my ride, trust me.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

I didn't listen a lot to the Gladen Zero Pro sub we put in that first GTR, but we did stick that and every other sub we had in the shop in a sealed enclosure and look at the response curve. The zero pro had a much more linear response curve than any of the other subs. So, maybe it could compare. Has anyone heard it? (and not saying linear response within the criteria it was placed in is anything major, but it definitely looked different than the others, in a good way)


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

You will be buying them used from someone... 




727south said:


> If i win the lottery this weekend i will have 3 c12xl in my ride, trust me.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Tnutt19 said:


> Because it plays lows as well as some 18s it is defying the law of physics?
> My 550I was faster than my much smaller IS350. No laws of Physics being defied there.


I checked your link for the specs on the Illusion Audio web site. Here's how the numbers stack up.

SPL is rated at 87 db but at 2.83v/m, so you're looking at ~ 84 db real world.

Fs in free air is 32 hz but put it in a box and put that box in another box and now you're looking mid to high 40's. So how is it playing as low as a 18"? The problem here is what you consider as low end is 60-200 hz, not 30-60. At the end of the day none of this really matters because unless you're listening to electronic or dub etc there is practically very little content in the 20-50hz region. 

The question is would I pay $ 1,000 for a sub that doesn't really dig much below a much cheaper one? Do I really want a sub to play my mid bass? Nope. I can understand that people are free to make choices so if they have $ 1,000 to spend on a sub which sounds better to them, more power to them. But that doesn't make the product a cut above all else. What irritates me are fanbois who make wild claims about the superiority of a brand / product over all else. With no relevant facts to back up the claims. 

This is the second coming for this company. Things were a touch iffy in it's earlier avatar too.

P.S. *deleted, not my beef*

P.P.S. I normally stay out of product/brand related threads cause I'm largely product / brand neutral. I spent good bucks on this hobby to realize down the line that actual SQ is from the tune. Once your install is correct and the placement is right, it's all down to the tune. The install doesn't even have to score high on aesthetics. I should have just stayed out


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

sqnut said:


> I checked your link for the specs on the Illusion Audio web site. Here's how the numbers stack up.
> 
> SPL is rated at 87 db but at 2.83v/m, so you're looking at ~ 84 db real world.
> 
> ...


So you've heard one? What did you think of the way it sounded?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Golden Ear said:


> So you've heard one? What did you think of the way it sounded?


The sub was in a 1 cu ft box and it sounded like a normal sub playing the first two octaves. Whats the big deal?


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

sqnut said:


> The sub was in a 1 cu ft box and it sounded like a normal sub playing the first two octaves. Whats the big deal?


That enclosure was too small. It sounds so much better in about 1.3 cubic feet. I know the website and specs say 1 cubic foot but lots of manufacturers are doing that these days.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Golden Ear said:


> That enclosure was too small. It sounds so much better in about 1.3 cubic feet. I know the website and specs say 1 cubic foot but lots of manufacturers are doing that these days.


A 1 cu ft box with stuffing would make it about a 1.15 cuft. Trust me nothing magical is going to happen by making the box .2 cuft larger. Yes the Fs will come down a bit so 42 hz i/o 45, no big deal. It's a decent sub, but nothing extra ordinary to be worth $ 1K. Ymmv


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I have a question for the XL owners......you guys tout that this sub performs awesome in a small sealed enclosure and is made for that. Am I doing something wrong when modeling it then? When I model this sub, it says a Q of 0.707 would need an enclosure of 10.21ft^3. WTF? 

1.3ft^3 would yield a Qtc of 0.97, with 37Hz being the -3dB point.
1.0ft^3 would yield a Qtc of 1.05, with 39Hz being the -3dB point.

Just seems interesting to me that this high Q is desirable and that this is marketed as a small enclosure woofer.

And again.....This is a $1,000 subwoofer that you can't buy and haven't been able to for 4 months with zero explanation. If one of you have a warranty issue, what are you going to do? The fact that they can't/won't make them and haven't for longer than 4 months (if they have been out of stock that long) would worry the **** out of me.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> I have a question for the XL owners......you guys tout that this sub performs awesome in a small sealed enclosure and is made for that. Am I doing something wrong when modeling it then? When I model this sub, it says a Q of 0.707 would need an enclosure of 10.21ft^3. WTF?
> 
> 1.3ft^3 would yield a Qtc of 0.97, with 37Hz being the -3dB point.
> 1.0ft^3 would yield a Qtc of 1.05, with 39Hz being the -3dB point.
> ...


Great points, Jerry. Sorry but I can't answer any of those questions. Hopefully someone else can. 

And as far as the warranty goes...well, I've got 1200 watts going to this thing and have blown fuses with no damage to the sub so I'm confident it'll last for the remainder of the warranty period, which is only a few more months for me.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

sqnut said:


> I checked your link for the specs on the Illusion Audio web site. Here's how the numbers stack up.
> 
> SPL is rated at 87 db but at 2.83v/m, so you're looking at ~ 84 db real world.
> 
> ...


First off my statement was that it will keep up with a lot of 18s. I ran 2 18s and later a single 18 getting 2200 rms prior to dropping in the 2 illusion c12xls to take that same power essentially. The lows were not lagging in any way and they were much more pleasing to listen too. They blended in much better and the bottom octave was better than any 12" sub i have ever heard. The lows do not lag at all one bit and that was a big concern because I loved the lows on the 18. 

Who is asking the sub to play midbass, I wonder if you really heard one or not, or if it had adequate power running to it. You would be the first person ever not to be impressed by the lows of it which causes me to wonder. Once again price is all subjective. Maybe it is not worth it to you, maybe it is. However how can you determine if it is worth it to someone else.? I do not see anyone complaining about the 1500 dollar price tag of the JL 13w7s. They are not going to appeal to everyone just like the Mosconi Class A amplifier are not going to be for everyone.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

One of two things, a company that makes customers wait four months either doesn't care about its customers or is a small operation that launched a product with a plan that worked. Demand outstripped both supply chain and perhaps financial capability. Either ways Jerry has a point on warranty claims.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Fs in free air is 32 hz but put it in a box and put that box in another box and now you're looking mid to high 40's. So how is it playing as low as a 18"? The problem here is what you consider as low end is 60-200 hz, not 30-60. At the end of the day none of this really matters because unless you're listening to electronic or dub etc there is practically very little content in the 20-50hz region.
> 
> The question is would I pay $ 1,000 for a sub that doesn't really dig much below a much cheaper one? Do I really want a sub to play my mid bass?


I've also wondered how it manages to excel at very low sub-bass reproduction with it's relatively mid-high Fs. I emailed Illusion about it once and they said that Fs isn't the be-all and end-all factor for determining how low the sub can play. 

The Arc Black 12 has an Fs of 21.3, and while I haven't spent enough time personally comparing the two, the consensus among everyone that I've talked to is that the Illusion XL digs lower than the Black.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Either ways Jerry has a point on warranty claims.


Unless he doesn't. By all accounts Jerry is a great guy and he knows his stuff. But I have not heard of any warranty issues with the C12XL. And as JOey mentioned, we have neither a confirmation or a denial of whether there is warranty stock of C12XLs in ORCA's warehouse. 

When people start posting about failing C12XLs and not being able to get a repair or replacement, that is when warranty claims become an issue. An issue for product owners and potential owners to worry about.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Well, I think by the way warranties are written that everyone would be safe. It has been at least 4 months. Any manufacturer's defects would certainly be evident by now. 

Illusion right now IS very small. I agree they have done a poor job in communicating what is happening. Even we don't know.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Distributor could very well have recone parts for them if a warranty issue arises. Maybe its just a delay on the build house side, it seems this is very common.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

sqnut said:


> One of two things, a company that makes customers wait four months either doesn't care about its customers or is a small operation that launched a product with a plan that worked. Demand outstripped both supply chain and perhaps financial capability. Either ways Jerry has a point on warranty claims.


The first several waves were very successful so my guess would be one of the suppliers had a hard time providing a part that delayed everything or they received the part but rejected it which would also cause a delay. Either way, it is better delayed and produced to expectation then skimp and provide an inferior build.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

This thread is quite entertaining. Let me just say if you've never heard the sub it's a little crazy to comment on it. 

I've tried and tuned with a lot of subs. The C12XL is pretty damn special. I repeatedly have to at times turn down 25-30 hz when tuning. 

My .02.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

i waited 5 months for some rims from Japan to be made and sent over once. Japan is a lot closer. Maybe the shippers are slower in India. Along with the farther distance, I can understand 4 months.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Distributor could very well have recone parts for them if a warranty issue arises. Maybe its just a delay on the build house side, it seems this is very common.


I can totally understand if its a build house issue as I work for a manufacturing company. It would just be nice to hear from them what the issue is (I.e shortage of parts or maintenance issues at the factory etc) and an ETA, rather than us speculating


jtaudioacc said:


> i waited 5 months for some rims from Japan to be made and sent over once. Japan is a lot closer. Maybe the shippers are slower in India. Along with the farther distance, I can understand 4 months.


JT I've also waited that long for rims too but usually it's cause they're trying to fill up a container. But from what I've heard Illusion sends their stuff by air.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> i waited 5 months for some rims from Japan to be made and sent over once. Japan is a lot closer. Maybe the shippers are slower in India. Along with the farther distance, I can understand 4 months.


5 months? You obviously don't know the right people.


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## 727south (Jul 21, 2009)

I went picked up my new Gladen amp today and the shop doesn't have the C12XL and they don't know when they gonna get it.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

shutmdown said:


> JT I've also waited that long for rims too but usually it's cause they're trying to fill up a container. But from what I've heard Illusion sends their stuff by air.


Hope they didn't use Malaysian Airlines...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> Hope they didn't use Malaysian Airlines...


:laugh:


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Lmfao^^^^


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Ok, finally got my illusion 10 inch in a ported box in...

WOW!!! I love this thing... Will elaborate more later.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

SouthSyde said:


> Ok, finally got my illusion 10 inch in a ported box in...
> 
> WOW!!! I love this thing... Will elaborate more later.


Please do! If you could write a mini review that would be awesome, including how much power you're giving it and the specs on your ported box.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

See well worth the wait


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

727south said:


> I went picked up my new Gladen amp today and the shop doesn't have the C12XL and they don't know when they gonna get it.


A bit off topic but which Gladen amp did you get?


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

Greetings all!

It has come to my attention that a statement has been made as to the "lack of availability" of the XL subwoofers. Let me set the record straight. 

In order for that line of subs to perform at the level that we all have come to expect, a certain type of parts must be purchased by the company that builds them in India. Unfortunately, there were delays and quality issues on certain aspects of the various parts that make up those drivers. We could have said screw it and had them built with inferior parts and met the demand and delivered an inferior product. We chose not to. We chose to wait until the situation could be rectified and produce the type of product our dealers expect. The availability of these subwoofers is being worked on right now. It takes time to build the quantity we have requested as we are going to be filling back orders and attempting to have enough stock to see us through to the end of the year. We are extremely pleased with the response to the XL subs and thank all of you who have purchased them. We regret the delay, but given the alternative we felt it best to make sure that the product everyone has come to expect remains at the highest of standards for our customers to sell and enjoy!

Hope this helps everyone understand the delay. 

Nick Wingate
Orca Design


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^. Thank you for coming on here and explaining to us about the situation.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

Thank you Nick! 
appreciate the info.


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## 727south (Jul 21, 2009)

jriggs said:


> A bit off topic but which Gladen amp did you get?


Gladen xl250c4


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Thank you Nick. So that means we might be expecting them by the end of the year is that correct ?? I only waited 4 months what's another 3 lok


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Wondering why was it that difficult to tell the truth to potential customers or even to their dealers the reason about the delay? 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Wondering why was it that difficult to tell to potential customers or even to their dealers the truth about the delay? 

Kelvin


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i figure i might well throw in some pics of the first two production C12XLs ever used in an install for nostalgic purposes  circa February 2012


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

That was just so mean lol, but in a nice way.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Why are you teasing ????^^^^^

Was that in the Hyundai Genesis that took hundreds of hours to build and has over 600 pics?


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Greetings all!
> 
> It has come to my attention that a statement has been made as to the "lack of availability" of the XL subwoofers. Let me set the record straight.
> 
> ...


I called that one a couple weeks back LOL. Due to others and my issues with certain other Illusion drivers I knew there had to be some parts suppliers that were not allowing them to make the product as good as they wanted it to be. 
Glad they didn't just go ahead and send out speakers that would break because you used a flash to take their picture.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

quickaudi07 said:


> Why are you teasing ????^^^^^
> 
> Was that in the Hyundai Genesis that took hundreds of hours to build and has over 600 pics?


you mean this one?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...cal-illusion-2012-genesis-sedan-600-pics.html


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Yes yes  it was a great install !


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Bing, I think it is time we auctioned off the rarest of the rare C12XL's... The question is, what is the minimum bid? $2000, $3000, $4000?


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I have a slightly used bag of Doritos id offer up in trade.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Bing, I think it is time we auctioned off the rarest of the rare C12XL's... The question is, what is the minimum bid? $2000, $3000, $4000?


Screw the bidding. I'll give u my left nut


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok, so the bidding has started, do I hear $2.50? $2.50 anyone?



hahaa..



SkizeR said:


> Screw the bidding. I'll give u my left nut


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

5.00... Joey I'll should have trade ur JL's for one


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Ok, so the bidding has started, do I hear $2.50? $2.50 anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> hahaa..


just $2.50? you drive a hard bargain


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I've seen it, and I know where it is stored. I'll give you a few quarts of ice cream.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Ill be nice and say quit F-ing around if you got one, please pass one my way  no bidding involved and SkizeR we will let you keep your left nut since your right is gone  

Seriously guys this wait time drives me Bananas !


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Haha trust me I know it drives u bananas...but u need just one...we needed like 10 haha! bee ay en ay en ay!


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

When I say rare, I mean, this isn't the ordinary C12XL. This is a limited edition, only 1 known in existence.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

What is so special about that one.


----------



## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

quickaudi07 said:


> What is so special about that one.


That it can be sold. Something no other C12XL can claim right now.


----------



## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Maybe Illusion is taking a play from the DeBeers playbook.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

This particular sub is quite special...its the only one..or perhaps one of only a couple in the world...I may be tempted to throw up a pic but I may just keep it mine foreva!


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Come on share


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Any update on this guys? 
I think I will get rid of my car faster than getting this sub. I'm thinking of taking my car audio gear out this weekend, and putting it back to stock. I need to get rid of my Audi, its costing me way too much money keeping it maintain, I'm thinking of getting n TL. :~)


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear that about your Audi. Well at least with the TL from what I've heard, your maintenance problems will go by the wayside. Will you be selling off your current gear ?


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Coppertone said:


> I'm sorry to hear that about your Audi. Well at least with the TL from what I've heard, your maintenance problems will go by the wayside. Will you be selling off your current gear ?


NO NO ! my current gear will be put in to a new car, (used but new to me)

There is no way i would be able to afford these amps all over again with the processor and other things... everything will be moved to a new ride.. I might be selling tweeters.. but that's about....


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> Any update on this guys?
> I think I will get rid of my car faster than getting this sub. I'm thinking of taking my car audio gear out this weekend, and putting it back to stock. I need to get rid of my Audi, its costing me way too much money keeping it maintain, I'm thinking of getting n TL. :~)


What kind of problem did you get with the Audi? 

Kelvin


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> What kind of problem did you get with the Audi?
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin, 

I don’t remember all of the problems that I have been experiencing with my car, but I bought it in 2008 with 10k miles on it
When I got the car, it had a cold air intake, test pipe, Miltek full system, exhaust, short shifter, Revo stage 1 chip, and it had full system coil overs put on the car.
Also, it came with 19” rims.
On the second day of buying that car, I had an engine light, I was thinking nothing big. Well it came out to be that I bad 02 sensors and so on, well I didn’t replace them because that wasn’t the problem. 
The car will lose power ad wouldn’t produce boost under woot! I did some testing and it came out to be HPFP. I found that on my own, and Audi wanted to replace my ECU because they thought it was bad ECU! 
Well the car was tuned little too much for them to find out a problem, so I went and replaced test pipe with oem cat, bought it used from Audizine guys.
All my problem went away after getting new hpfp, new cam follower, and changing the oil right away, I drove the car and it was fine, than I had bad coils go bad on me, which I replaced them 2-3 times already and sparkplugs at the same time, little after that my engine mounts went bad, I never neutral drop the car, (its 6 speed MT) or did any hard shifts at high rpm’s, I also had to replace front mount transmission mount! And after that all went down the hill, I had to replace flap motor, N75 vacuum, already replaced 2 DV Valves, valve cover gasket, which I still have a bad oil leak, also there was another temp valve behind the block which I don’t remember the name of it. Another oil leak that I found and replaced was oil cooler seal, which is PTA to replace got that done as well, I had 2 drive axle go bad seal broke which I replaced as well, some stupid vacuum lines went bad, I needed to get new coils for the car cuz the ones that were on it broke and leaked like crazy.
I mean constantly there is always something, nonstop! I’m sick of it. I recently found out that I have a bad head gasket and needs replacement. I’m at the end of my wallet to keep replacing parts in that car. This will be my last Audi, I can’t replace head gasket because I don’t have the knowledge to do so, so I gave up!
Oh also timing belt has been replaced, all fluids have been replaced, brake fluid, oil, coolant, and brake fluid, also rear differential oil was replaced, and transmission oil has been replaced as well.
Don’t buy an Audi unless you have fat wallet to fix it, unless you have the garage, and you could do it yourself. Even then the parts are expensive.

Just to add i like the car a lot, fun to drive and great for winters due to Quattro technology, but i'm willing to give that up!
The car has 108K miles on.

Now you know why i want to get rid of it  ahh!

This is how it looked when i got it


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> Kelvin,
> 
> I don’t remember all of the problems that I have been experiencing with my car, but I bought it in 2008 with 10k miles on it
> When I got the car, it had a cold air intake, test pipe, Miltek full system, exhaust, short shifter, Revo stage 1 chip, and it had full system coil overs put on the car.
> ...


Sorry to hear that you got so many problems... I remember reading a thread that supports what you had - Audi owners seem to never get over problems, they keep coming and coming. 

I'm a Mercedes fan and I know they had some troubles in the past (late 90' to early 00') but apparently they managed to improve reliability and get good scores from insurance companies lately (not lexus scores but good nonetheless). 

Hope you find a good car and enjoy it more than repair it. 

Kelvin


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Thanks k you Kelvin. What can you do. AUDI, and other German cars are money pit.


----------



## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

Greetings All!

An air shipment of C12 XL and C10 XL subs has arrived in the USA and as soon as it clears customs and arrives at Orca, all backorders will be processed and shipped. 

Ill try and keep everyone up to date as to arrival time into Orca. 

Thanks for your patience!

Nick Wingate
Orca Design


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Omg!!! Sweet!


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Greetings All!
> 
> An air shipment of C12 XL and C10 XL subs has arrived in the USA and as soon as it clears customs and arrives at Orca, all backorders will be processed and shipped.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that up to date information.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Thank you as well... been waiting so long.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

A little birdie told me that the C12XLs are in stock and shipped today to those who had pending orders.


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

rton20s said:


> A little birdie told me that the C12XLs are in stock and shipped today to those who had pending orders.


I hope your birdie is telling the truth!


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Well someone needs to go gangsta on that birdie and force him to share when it's available to us regular Joes lol.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

hahahahhahhahahha ^^^^^


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Coppertone said:


> Well someone needs to go gangsta on that birdie and force him to share when it's available to us regular Joes lol.


Try it and see what happens.

It is now currently available, just order it from your local dealer.


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

Have they shipped to dealers yet?


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

shutmdown said:


> Have they shipped to dealers yet?


As rton20s said, if they had a pending order they have been shipped.


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

cobb2819 said:


> As rton20s said, if they had a pending order they have been shipped.


yesssss.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

gregerst22 said:


> I haven't had a chance to listen to these subs. Are they any good in IB? Soundwise how do they compare to AE IB15AU?


I have not heard one in IB but in a small box of 1cu, sounded great, loud, deep and gets LOW!


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

I think I found where they've been going:


----------



## Audiophilefred (Oct 24, 2012)

Does anybody know a dealer around the sa ,Austin area, and retail on the 10cxl?


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Audiophilefred said:


> Does anybody know a dealer around the sa ,Austin area, and retail on the 10cxl?


Tint World in Austin on Canyon Glen Circle is an Illusion dealer, and they can order a C10XL for you, $850.


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

just out of curiosity can these subs be reconed?


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

No, we do not recone our drivers. If it is still under the manufacturer's warranty, and is a manu defect, the driver is replaced.


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Architect7 said:


> I think I found where they've been going:


Architect what in the world is that?


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Cool


----------



## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Audiophilefred said:


> Does anybody know a dealer around the sa ,Austin area, and retail on the 10cxl?


Custom Sounds. I went through the SA San Pedro location. If you go through another location and are having trouble, pm me and I'll give you the contact info of the person you need to speak with.


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

teldzc1 said:


> Architect what in the world is that?


No idea, I found those pics in a NY Audio Show album, zero explanation Crazy right?


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Architect7 said:


> No idea, I found those pics in a NY Audio Show album, zero explanation Crazy right?


Scaena: New products, same great sound | Stereophile.com


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

$10k!!! C12XL pricing just looked a whole lot better lol.


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Architect7 said:


> $10k!!! C12XL pricing just looked a whole lot better lol.


I can't believe it still has the Illusion branding on those. That's crazy.


----------



## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Well at 10K they do come with a couple grand in enclosure and a few more grand in amplification.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Has anyone had the chance to compare these to the Critical Mass UL12 yet?


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

LoL no but I could vet money that not too many of us have these subs as far as CM goes!


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

quickaudi07 said:


> LoL no but I could vet money that not too many of us have these subs as far as CM goes!


I know. But I'm sure there's a few people that have heard both. 

My assumption is that they're about the same in sound quality. They both have shallow depths, both have Neo mags, both have carbon fiber cones. They are essentially about the same. 

Due to my build, I was being restricted to lightweight, and a shallow depth, so I was going to run a set of refurbished UL12's. The metro guy on ebay gave me the options of $6,500 ea new or $2,000 refurbished. So I was heavily considering it but the guy left a bad taste in my mouth. He could converse about selling me the UL's, but ignored all of my other questions. Whether or not he found them trite is of little importance, it was his customer service that made me start looking into the other possibilities. 

So now that I won't be running UL12's, there is a little nagging question in the back of my mind as to which speaker has the edge. I'm sure someone here has heard both. 

Kind regards!


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I could tell you that much. I have heard the c12xl and I simply felt in love with sound quality! It gets deep. Gets low. Gets under 25hz. And it gets stupid loud. It also could handle 1000wrms +. I heard this sub in 1.2cu box with 1500 w rms and it simply took it like a champ!


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you spend 6500 on a single sub...or even 2000 for a b-stock on, I will drive to your house and punch you in the balls.



Kenneth M said:


> I know. But I'm sure there's a few people that have heard both.
> 
> My assumption is that they're about the same in sound quality. They both have shallow depths, both have Neo mags, both have carbon fiber cones. They are essentially about the same.
> 
> ...


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> If you spend 6500 on a single sub...or even 2000 for a b-stock on, I will drive to your house and punch you in the balls.


... then ask for some fuel change coz with that much money, he should give you some for the way back home  

Kelvin


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

Kenneth M said:


> I know. But I'm sure there's a few people that have heard both.
> 
> My assumption is that they're about the same in sound quality. They both have shallow depths, both have Neo mags, both have carbon fiber cones. They are essentially about the same.
> 
> ...


That guy on ebay is about a scrupulous as a terrorist. Run far far away...


----------



## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> If you spend 6500 on a single sub...or even 2000 for a b-stock on, I will drive to your house and punch you in the balls.


Since I just dropped 2100 on a pair of C12XL's, does that mean you'll drive to my house and massage them... lightly? 

Your post made me LOL, btw..

On the serious, I enjoy buying the best materials within the few hobbies I love. I work really hard and ridiculous long hours. So I'm able to do things once, and not have to question whether or not it's the best; I already know. I like that feeling. I really don't mind working harder than most people to attain it. 



subwoofery said:


> ... then ask for some fuel change coz with that much money, he should give you some for the way back home
> 
> Kelvin


Lol! I've wined and dined women and filled up their gas tanks just to have them break my balls, so really this wouldn't be too far off the mark... 



Architect7 said:


> That guy on ebay is about a scrupulous as a terrorist. Run far far away...


I appreciate the advice brotha. I've read on several forums how he shill bids his auctions up. Pretty sad. Really curious what his real connection to Icon/CM is....


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Well I watched cm once on ebay. The sub was at around 350$ some what good price based on 10k $ sub right ??? I watched the auction very closely and at the end of it in last seconds by the bid being in 300's it jumped to 650 $ right away... to me it's a scam! I contacted the guy myself. He's a ******* I got the same response as you did. I told him to g f him self.... excuse my language! But no way ! I don't care how good the sub is... I won't own it just for that reason.. he told me to bid on it and I called him out being a scam because the winner of the auction was nothing but a winner of cm product that he is selling under a different name...!


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Anyways... since you have 2100 $ for 2 c12xl... I will gladly come and kick you balls lightly and ask for some money to get me back home


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

This makes me so intrigued about what's underneath the veneer at Icon/CM. How can such a innovative and superior sub be in control of one man with no scruples on ebay? Why did Icon abandon CM's entire distribution network to let one amoral man sell their product on ebay? It is absolutely senseless. Granted, the UL12 was the only quality component if the entire line, some manufacturers don't even have one, yet maintain a wide dealership network. It's just so bizarre. 

After my install, if I'm around your neck of the woods to attend a trackday, how about I buy you a beer, you listen to (and critique) my setup, and we just kick it..


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Kenneth, let me first state that I think you made the right choice in ordering a pair of C12XLs. I don't think you'll be disappointed. And if you are, you should have absolutely no problem moving those subs. 

Now on to this...



Kenneth M said:


> My assumption is that they're about the same in sound quality. They both have shallow depths, both have Neo mags, both have carbon fiber cones. They are essentially about the same.


This has to be one of the worst assumptions I have ever heard. Just because a pair of drivers have similar material characteristics does not mean that they are built with the same quality or that they will sound anything at all alike. And that isn't a comment on whether or not the CM UL12 is a decent driver. Just a comment on driver comparison in general. 

If Illusion (or any manufacturer) chose to, they could build a driver that *looked* identical to the C12XL with completely different performance characteristics. To look at them though, you would have no idea that there was a difference.


----------



## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

rton20s said:


> Kenneth, let me first state that I think you made the right choice in ordering a pair of C12XLs. I don't think you'll be disappointed. And if you are, you should have absolutely no problem moving those subs.
> 
> Now on to this...
> 
> ...


I guess I wasn't clear enough. I've read all the reviews of both and discussed both at length with people and the conclusions have been extremely similar. I just haven't run across someone who have heard both. Everything so far has been a one-sided argument. 

If you chase down the reviews of both, you'll see the similarities by the conclusion, hence my desire to see a sound-off between the two.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Got ya sorry i can't help you with the decision or tell you what's better. I just heard c12xl.


----------



## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Just picked my c12xl's today. 

Packaging and build quality is top notch. 

Whoever said they make them in small batches was on point. If this was their third batch, then they're only making them 50 at a time since one of my serials is #00127.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

You won't be disappointed. Best subs I've ever heard!


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

Kenneth M said:


> Just picked my c12xl's today.
> 
> Packaging and build quality is top notch.
> 
> Whoever said they make them in small batches was on point. If this was their third batch, then they're only making them 50 at a time since one of my serials is #00127.


NICE! I'm jealous you got 2 of em...
I was also impressed by how well it was packed and the build quality!


----------



## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks guys!! 

Can't wait to hear them!


----------



## nickt (Sep 22, 2013)

Are these available again new at dealers?


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

nickt said:


> Are these available again new at dealers?


for now....


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

gregerst22 said:


> I'm trying to justify how $2k for a pair of these can be worth it? I'm not saying they aren't, I think just need to hear them first.


i totally agree I was having a hard time justifying the price. i went from an iDMax to an Ultimo to now a C12XL. I made the decision to go the C12XL because I have a blend of the iDMax and the Ultimo and I can squeeze it into such a small enclosure which is what I plan on doing.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Anyone got their subs ???


----------



## mercury02 (Jul 20, 2014)

These subs are ok but way over priced when they were made in US in early 2000
made In Scottsdale Arizona they were only $850 to $900 for 12in
and $1000.00 for 15in carbon series as rep I was toasted over price but they sound better back then and had more bass to them.
now made in India when has India become Hi End speaker manufacturer?
Example Armani shirt I go to store and see hand made in China they want $200.00
then I see another Armani shirt hand made in Italy $200.00 which do I buy(LOL)


----------



## "that boy asad" (Feb 15, 2008)

So I ended up getting my hands on an C12 and C12 XL, but the amp I have is the Mosconi AS 200.2

Which one should I keep - C12 or C12 XL? Would my amp be best paired with the C12 or would the C12 XL still be better even with it being underpowered?

(my enclosure is a sealed 1.35 cubic feet)


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I'll say give a shot buddy and see what happens


----------



## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

mercury02 said:


> I was toasted over price but they sound better back then and had more bass to them.


Are you referring to the old ND carbon series? If so, there is no way those were better than the modern Illusions. Unless I am missing something here...


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Architect7 said:


> Are you referring to the old ND carbon series? If so, there is no way those were better than the modern Illusions. Unless I am missing something here...


I'd say you're not missing anything. that made my head spin. lol


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> Anyone got their subs ???


Yes a few of us have already.


----------



## mercury02 (Jul 20, 2014)

Yes I'm saying old Carbon series were better then new ones. we all have what we like and
I Thought old carbons more musical overall. we can agree too disagree


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Such a sexy looking sub 

















Please tell me how many of you could hold a 12" sub just like that ... try to bold idmax or jl audio  good luck


----------



## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Well some of us can actually hold heavy things.  I know I can do that with an SPG555. 
I am strong but smell isn't everything.

They are good looking subs though. If I didn't have so much trouble with that company I would have ordered a couple. Let me know how you like them.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> Please tell me how many of you could hold a 12" sub just like that ... try to bold idmax or jl audio  good luck


The JL and the IDMax are made in the USA. The beefier the better!!!

Those are made in India. 

Nice looking sub though!!!! Congrats!


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Thanks  yes I know they are not made in US. But they do stand out from other subs and one main thing is 10lb. And than again small box. And also they are well build... my build will be on hold. I need to get some parts together and extra stuff... plus it's getting brutal cold in IL


----------



## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

Has anyone had any experience running this sub in UNDER 1cuft? Before reading the spec pdf, the description on Illusions website says the recommended sealed enclosure is .75cuft with stuffing. I have a fiberglass enclosure with a .75cuft airspace and am wondering how the C12XL will perform in comparison to a 1 or a 1.3cuft airspace.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Orca recommend to use Black hole stuffing, 
Al & Ed's Autosound - Focal Blackhole High Efficiency Acoustic Dampening Mat

Here it is, also i would email Orca to get the best answer to your question.


----------



## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

///Audience said:


> Has anyone had any experience running this sub in UNDER 1cuft? Before reading the spec pdf, the description on Illusions website says the recommended sealed enclosure is .75cuft with stuffing. I have a fiberglass enclosure with a .75cuft airspace and am wondering how the C12XL will perform in comparison to a 1 or a 1.3cuft airspace.


Add some black hole stuff and you will be right where you need to be. It will perform really well in that space.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Tnutt19 said:


> Add some black hole stuff and you will be right where you need to be. It will perform really well in that space.


Yes it will... I'm planing on going with 1.2cu box for my car.. I wonder if i will need any blackhole stuff....


----------



## "that boy asad" (Feb 15, 2008)

My enclosure is 1.35cu ft, I was recommended to add blackhole stuff or 20oz of poly-fil


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

quickaudi07 said:


> Yes it will... I'm planing on going with 1.2cu box for my car.. I wonder if i will need any blackhole stuff....


I would recommend it.


----------



## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Golden Ear said:


> I would recommend it.


How much would I need ??


----------



## LMS (Jul 1, 2008)

Has anyone compared the sq of the xl's with that of the critical mass ul-12 5000 ? 


CRITICAL MASS UL-12 5000

Technical Specifications:

Subwoofer Size: 12”
RMS Power handling: 2500 Watts (undistorted power)
Peak Power handling: 5000 Watts
Recommended Box Volume: 1.2 cuft. (Sealed)
Weight: 16.6 lbs
Motor Type: Dual Gap / Internal NEO Magnet
Voice Coil Type: Ultra-High Temp Dual Coil (Made in the USA)
Voice Coil Diameter: 3”
Voice Coil Impedance: 1.5 ohm nominal per coil
Xmax (one-way linear excursion): 36 mm (3” peak-to-peak)
Maximum Excursion (one way): 46 mm (Almost 4” peak-to-peak)
Sensitivity: 96.7 db (2.83V / 1m) (coils in parallel)
Fs (Klipple-LSI): 31 Hz
Qts (Klipple-LSI): 0.81
Vas (Klipple-LSI): 47.7


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

quickaudi07 said:


> How much would I need ??


About half a sheet, loosely filling the enclosure.


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## "that boy asad" (Feb 15, 2008)

Any benefits/Advantages of having Blackhole Stuff vs. Poly-Fil?


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

"that boy asad" said:


> Any benefits/Advantages of having Blackhole Stuff vs. Poly-Fil?


i'd like to know this as well.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

"that boy asad" said:


> Any benefits/Advantages of having Blackhole Stuff vs. Poly-Fil?


Donno if this counts but this guy swapped out the stuffing in a Wilson Audio watt puppy and replaced it with 'Angel Hair' and long witha few other mods. Don't know how much influence the Angel Hair has n the overall performance.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I couldn't hear a difference but I only have Klipsch Pro Media speakers and whatever the mid/high level Soundblaster card was that came out last year.
Guess I could stream it in the truck but that video is only 480 so a lot of definition is already lost.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

It was worth a shot. I'm sure in the upper echelons of audio its there is some difference, But whether its worth stressing about ... I'm not sure. I personally would go with your bog standard polyfil and concentrate more on other factors like the enclosure rather than the fine points of the stuffing.


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## #1BigMike (Aug 17, 2014)

OP did you ever install the sub?


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

#1BigMike said:


> OP did you ever install the sub?


Not yet got a different car and will be building the box for that sub.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

As the winter passes by, I'm slowly starting on my new car build. It will be lots of work and **** load of sanding. But C12XL will be with me.  I can't give any reviews on this sub yet. But once I get everything installed I will make a review of everything I have...


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I didn't get a chance to install my Sub but it looks like the hype is over this sub. Everyone is selling them left and right.... I sold mine.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I am surprised how many people just sold them. For fairly large discounts too.

Wonder why? They are pretty and from what I am told they sound great. I only heard one and it wasn't for any time to get down and dirty with it but it went boom boom boom.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

quickaudi07 said:


> I didn't get a chance to install my Sub but it looks like the hype is over this sub. Everyone is selling them left and right.... I sold mine.


Wow, you waited so long for it and you already sold it?!

I wouldn't have sold mine if I could have fit it in my latest build. It's definitely my favorite sub of all time and I hope to get another vehicle I can utilize one in someday.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Some personal issues came up and one of them is a job loss, I had no choice.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)




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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

quickaudi07 said:


> Some personal issues came up and one of them is a job loss, I had no choice.


Sorry to hear that bro


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Its OK I'll get up one day. For now bills come first, pleasure later.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

quickaudi07 said:


> Its OK I'll get up one day. For now bills come first, pleasure later.


I just received two and can not wait to get them in. I had two in my 550i and loved them. Also my favorite sub to date so I bought two more. Not sure about the hype being over or not but bottom line is the hype does not change the fact that these subs are nothing less than fantastic!


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Bottom line is. I'm pissed because I have my amp for sale and also tweeters and other stuff. I need a job asap! Than I could get a good deal or I might go IB for less money and buy 2 sub's for the price of one


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Either way... C12xl had to be sold to gain $ for bills.


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## zacjones99 (May 11, 2009)

Is 780w at 4 ohms enough for one of these sealed in the spare tire well of a 2003 330i with the seats folded down?


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

zacjones99 said:


> Is 780w at 4 ohms enough for one of these sealed in the spare tire well of a 2003 330i with the seats folded down?


That is not ideal but if the box is large enough it will still sound really good. They like their power. You can feed them 1500 watts easy in their cft enclosure.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

To bad i was waiting so long for that sub, and did not get the chance to hear it.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

zacjones99 said:


> Is 780w at 4 ohms enough for one of these sealed in the spare tire well of a 2003 330i with the seats folded down?


While they can handle much more power, I have one in a sealed box about 1.28 cubic feet with 50% polyfill/fiber glass stuffing and approx. 575 watts of power. It sounds fantastic. amp is a zapco z 150.4 le, 2 channels bridged to.sub.


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## Tnutt19 (Dec 22, 2010)

The key here though is you have a very oversized box when figuring in the stuffing. The wheel well in the 330 is really small so I am guessing he does not have that kind of airspace and I can tell you the efficiency goes way down if it is in a smaller box than 1cft.


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## #1BigMike (Aug 17, 2014)

I am sure the C12XL is excellent. The C10XL is no slouch either and can fit in slightly smaller enclosures. The C10XL I installed in my touareg has been very impressive. 

I personally love when new things come to market. Because all the really good "not so old stuff" goes on sale for crazy prices. I love me some good deals!


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Took a look at my C12 XL last night.

Initial thoughts are - Holy crap this thing is light!
Holy crap the magnet is small.
The cone looks like a beast. 
And I kind of get why the price tag is so high, for the amount of output it has, and the accuracy and ability to dig deep in such a small enclosure - it is a masterpiece of engineering. 

Can't wait to have it installed and give it a listen.


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## zacjones99 (May 11, 2009)

Tnutt19 said:


> That is not ideal but if the box is large enough it will still sound really good. They like their power. You can feed them 1500 watts easy in their cft enclosure.





jriggs said:


> While they can handle much more power, I have one in a sealed box about 1.28 cubic feet with 50% polyfill/fiber glass stuffing and approx. 575 watts of power. It sounds fantastic. amp is a zapco z 150.4 le, 2 channels bridged to.sub.


I'm also considering picking up another DC1100.1 and having plenty of headroom with 1100w at 2ohms to each coil.



Tnutt19 said:


> The key here though is you have a very oversized box when figuring in the stuffing. The wheel well in the 330 is really small so I am guessing he does not have that kind of airspace and I can tell you the efficiency goes way down if it is in a smaller box than 1cft.


I should get a rough volume measurement of the wheel well, but I saw Bing did a 2.25cf enclosure using the spare tire well in his e46 revitalization thread. I think I could easily get 1.5cf out of the spare tire well.


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

bumping this due to there being so many of these available for sale *including one from myself * and everyone on here seems to either have forgotten how incredible this sub is or is too new to the forums to know better.


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## Audiophilefred (Oct 24, 2012)

Man I hating selling mine . But needed the funds somewhere else but I'm gonna miss that sub for sure


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

Didn't read through every post, but it seems that the vast majority of people have employed this sub in a sealed enclosure or infinite baffle configuration. Has anyone had any luck using a ported enclosure?


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## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

If you call and ask them, Illusion says around 1.0 - 1.5 sealed, with fill...for best results.

According to Illusion, they currently passing through Customs and should be back in stock within 2 weeks.
Didn't realize they were made in India? 

Think I'll buy a spare.

.


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

DPGstereo said:


> If you call and ask them, Illusion says around 1.0 - 1.5 sealed, with fill...for best results.
> 
> According to Illusion, they currently passing through Customs and should be back in stock within 2 weeks.
> Didn't realize they were made in India?
> ...


Thank you for the response. I was hoping to do a plexi viewing window on the back of the enclosure, but it might look kind of ugly if it's stuff with fill! Definitely something to consider.

Matt


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## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

I just picked up one of these.. going to downfire it behind my center console.. I need ideas for box size and if stuffy really is needed. I don't want to build the box so big that the sub loses its tight accuracy. I enjoy that snap for rock. I have 980W of power to work with.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Got-Four-Eights said:


> I just picked up one of these.. going to downfire it behind my center console.. I need ideas for box size and if stuffy really is needed. I don't want to build the box so big that the sub loses its tight accuracy. I enjoy that snap for rock. I have 980W of power to work with.




1.3 cubes sealed is the magic number. And yes, use some stuffing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

Golden Ear said:


> 1.3 cubes sealed is the magic number. And yes, use some stuffing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, I just read this whole post... WOW.. I was so happy 007 got his sub and then he had to end up selling it.. dramatic lol. What's funny is I have been debating this sub for months over my current subs for one reason and one reason only.. this thing gets LOW with authority.. I have owned and heard many subs.. this one just impressed the hell out of me.. and what I heard was just the 10! Really looking forward to this one.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Why did everyone sell this sub if it is highly regarded? Any users running ported or band Pass? Has anyone modeled the C12 XL?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Cause it's a k


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## criddopher (Apr 3, 2011)

cause subs are like pokemon


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

dcfis said:


> Cause it's a k


b/c it costs $1000, I’m guessing that’s what you meant.

So ppl unloaded/ sold these subs at a loss b/c the they paid too much?

Or they didn’t feel the price tag was worth the performance & decided to sell while the hype was still present w/ minimal loss?


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

criddopher said:


> cause subs are like pokemon


Ok, idk what you mean. 


Guess these subs suck then, don’t play low and aren’t worth the cost, got it! 

Wtf is wrong with this forum ?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

ChaseUTB said:


> b/c it costs $1000, I’m guessing that’s what you meant.
> 
> So ppl unloaded/ sold these subs at a loss b/c the they paid too much?
> 
> Or they didn’t feel the price tag was worth the performance & decided to sell while the hype was still present w/ minimal loss?


I think yes, even at a 20-25% loss they could still get multiple other well known subs. Most assuredly they were seeking additional output like we all do regardless and couldnt drop another K to achieve it. I havent heard the dyn or morel but was impressed with the c12xl. I couldnt drop 2K on it though for what I need


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

It’s a high qts (.66) sub with an fs of 31.61 and 18 mm of Xmax. I’m sure it sounds good IB and sealed but $1000 . One could get a GB12 sub, GS60 mid woofers with GS10 tweeters, and have one hell of a nice system to play with for the same coin.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Damn, that is some perspective




V8toilet said:


> It’s a high qts (.66) sub with an fs of 31.61 and 18 mm of Xmax. I’m sure it sounds good IB and sealed but $1000 <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)" class="inlineimg" />. One could get a GB12 sub, GS60 mid woofers with GS10 tweeters, and have one hell of a nice system to play with for the same coin. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

my do the mods let this crap continue in thread after thread?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

miniSQ said:


> my do the mods let this crap continue in thread after thread?


What's wrong man?


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## criddopher (Apr 3, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> Ok, idk what you mean.
> 
> 
> Guess these subs suck then, don’t play low and aren’t worth the cost, got it!
> ...


Pokemon, gotta catch em all! thats the phrase they use or some ****. Guys just like to try new subs. Id bet the sub is the most often changed part in systems if you did a poll. Thats why. The c12xl is a fantastic sub. The best sounding I've heard. I run one. 1k is a lot, I got mine new on these forums for 550 or some **** I forget. Although I would pay the 1k, you certainly don't have to. Like any other item you can find it cheaper.

In my g35 I have a perfectly good idmax. My gf drives that car, she doesnt really care about car audio. Even she is interested in the idea of trying another sub.

Hell I just got the carbon in my car and I already want to see how the hertz legend joint and the morel ultimo stack up, not because Im unhappy with it, just because I have a problem.


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## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

.

A big issue with the *C12XL* is availability. It has been out of stock from *Orca *since October of last year. So warranting a defective *C12XL* is a huge issue. Build/ship date keeps getting pushed back. Built in India, why I'm not sure. There is a USA version of this sub, the *Raven 12XL*...see *orcadesign.com*. Same _Carbon Fiber_ design, made in California. A single voice coil 4ohms version with supposed better cooling and better overall build. Power handling is listed at 800 watts rms - 1,600 watts peak.
I've heard some say this is really a home speaker sub, but what does that mean? If you dig a little and ask who's using them, you might be surprised...? 
Price is about the same, but without the marketing that the _*Illusion Audio*_ brand has received...not many seem to know about this sub?
I've personally had both...not convinced I could hear a difference, both sound great. I've been told the _*Raven*_ will play a little lower?

.


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## criddopher (Apr 3, 2011)

DPGstereo said:


> .
> 
> A big issue with the *C12XL* is availability. It has been out of stock from *Orca *since October of last year. So warranting a defective *C12XL* is a huge issue. Build/ship date keeps getting pushed back. Built in India, why I'm not sure. There is a USA version of this sub, the *Raven 12XL*...see *orcadesign.com*. Same _Carbon Fiber_ design, made in California. A single voice coil 4ohms version with supposed better cooling and better overall build. Power handling is listed at 800 watts rms - 1,600 watts peak.
> I've heard some say this is really a home speaker sub, but what does that mean? If you dig a little and ask who's using them, you might be surprised...?
> ...



sure looks the same. Some of the specs are a little different. I had no idea this thing existed. 

Illusions website was recently redone. Perhaps thats a good sign to things getting back in order


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## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

criddopher said:


> sure looks the same. Some of the specs are a little different. I had no idea this thing existed.
> 
> Illusions website was recently redone. Perhaps thats a good sign to things getting back in order


I was told, months ago, that the manufacturing company in India had issues. The owner of the company passed away, son was trying to reorganize? Some product was starting to ship out, but _*C12XL*_ was further down the queue. Hopefully soon?

If you don't already have an _*Illusion C12XL*_, and just want a second to match...definitely go with the _*Raven 12XL*_. As good or better.


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## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

.

For anyone interested, I spoke with ORCA yesterday. Said they are receiving product from India. Just received a shipment of CX3, more and other models soon to follow. Said still 2 months out for the C12XL subs?


.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

DPGstereo said:


> I was told, months ago, that the manufacturing company in India had issues. The owner of the company passed away, son was trying to reorganize? Some product was starting to ship out, but _*C12XL*_ was further down the queue. Hopefully soon?
> 
> If you don't already have an _*Illusion C12XL*_, and just want a second to match...definitely go with the _*Raven 12XL*_. As good or better.


After doing some research, I noticed some significant differences in the T/S parameters on the Ravens vs Carbons. Are the Ravens focused on the home market vs car audio? Where can you purchase the Ravens?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

metanium said:


> After doing some research, I noticed some significant differences in the T/S parameters on the Ravens vs Carbons. Are the Ravens focused on the home market vs car audio? Where can you purchase the Ravens?


Yes, there are some significant differences in T/S parameters, primarily in the 10s and less so in the 12s. Other changes include the venting of the motor, the number of shorting rings and the fact that assembly of the Raven subwoofers takes place in the US. And yes, the Raven products are designed with a focus on home audio.

I believe Orca/Illusion dealers do have access to the Raven product line. If you don't have a local dealer, you can order directly from Raven/Orca.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Thank you everyone for the help and info! I thanked each post respectively.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

criddopher said:


> Pokemon, gotta catch em all! thats the phrase they use or some ****. Guys just like to try new subs. Id bet the sub is the most often changed part in systems if you did a poll. Thats why. The c12xl is a fantastic sub. The best sounding I've heard. I run one. 1k is a lot, I got mine new on these forums for 550 or some **** I forget. Although I would pay the 1k, you certainly don't have to. Like any other item you can find it cheaper.
> 
> In my g35 I have a perfectly good idmax. My gf drives that car, she doesnt really care about car audio. Even she is interested in the idea of trying another sub.
> 
> Hell I just got the carbon in my car and I already want to see how the hertz legend joint and the morel ultimo stack up, not because Im unhappy with it, just because I have a problem.


Ok thanks for elaborating! See that’s what I don’t want to happen to me. I want to buy right the first time. I am considering 2 JL W7 @ $950 a piece or 1 13W7 $1300, 2 Audiofrog GB12 around $1000. Then I read this thread and considered these C12XL as well. I have heard the W7 and the GB, W7 in a not the best 6th order series and GB12 sealed. 

I heard Bruce ‘s championship SUV with morel subs and they blended well and were extremely balanced to where I had to ask if there were subs on some songs. Granted the genres I work in have more bass than those, I want more bass than his tune was set for. Don’t get me wrong his suv sounds killer! Have a good one


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

dcfis said:


> What's wrong man?


I could be wrong saying this, I think it was directed towards me, MiniSQ doesn’t like some of my posts.


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