# law of diminishing returns? or..why expensive gear isnt always best



## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I've recently been watching people buy up morel ultimo subs, synphoni amps, $1500 headunits without even a cd drive etc..and its got me wondering.

I'd love to hear stories, successful or otherwise but mainly successful ones, of people using cheap gear and knowing what they are doing with tuning/install and going far with it. I want to see proof that knolege trumps cash laid out, and the stories behind it.

case in point, I've got a friend who has a 40k car with a 40k system in it, and we have a gentlemans bet on that I can beat him in meca extreme with only 10 percent of that outlay..i believe its totally possible and he does not.

so tell me some stories of how that $10 woofer from parts express processed by that craigslist helix dsp for $200 outruns that $1400 pair of midasses powered by $3k of Italian amplifier beauty? etc etc.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I can't wait till I can run the circuit and get the "SPL" brand some wins. No local BS


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

DC/Hertz said:


> I can't wait till I can run the circuit and get the "SPL" brand some wins. No local BS




Which "SPL" brand?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

brumledb said:


> Which "SPL" brand?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hertz


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## neuspeedescort (Feb 23, 2010)

DC/Hertz said:


> I can't wait till I can run the circuit and get the "SPL" brand some wins. No local BS


until SPL companies can figure out high sensitivity and low xmax are generally SQ winning needs they will have issues. EROM and 83db sensitivity are bad things. this coming from my inner basshead.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

neuspeedescort said:


> until SPL companies can figure out high sensitivity and low xmax are generally SQ winning needs they will have issues. EROM and 83db sensitivity are bad things. this coming from my inner basshead.


<-------The studio monitor company??


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

DD mostly. And it's just fine.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Lycancatt said:


> I've recently been watching people buy up morel ultimo subs, synphoni amps, $1500 headunits without even a cd drive etc..and its got me wondering.
> 
> I'd love to hear stories, successful or otherwise but mainly successful ones, of people using cheap gear and knowing what they are doing with tuning/install and going far with it. I want to see proof that knolege trumps cash laid out, and the stories behind it.
> 
> ...



I think you can do it.

I had about $130 in my front 3-way + 2-way center stage in my Flex, a few hundred in amps, MS-8 processor, and pair of subs. It was extremely impressive. Competition-ready? Maybe with some more deadening work, but its a DD vehicle.

Speakers that do the job (low distortion, meets frequency response needs, etc) are not expensive any more. Amps, well... get something that is quiet and powerful, and you're good. Having a good processor is key, I'd say that.

That, and deaden the **** out of the darn thing.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Rattles are a SOAB. Get them all and a few days later a new one pops up.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm having a hard time with my door skins. 
Example- Ain't no Sunshine of the ARC disk, same as MECA uses I think. On the dynamic bass plucks the vibrate like crazy. The only thing left to do is coat them in cement.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

All I know is I replaced a 400$ cdn audison apk set with flutes and nd28f-6 and the difference is staggering. Exact same door exact same amp exact same zero tuning from the deck. Only difference was x over point on the tweeter and around $250

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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

People say the flutes don't have good upper mid range.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Maybe not exactly the incredibly cheap system you're looking for but I've got pennies under $2k sunk in my DSP, 13 amp channels and speakers -

MS-8, three MS-1004's and an MS-5001;
14 HAT and SI drivers (3-way front, 2-way center, 2-way rear, 2 subs)

Yeah, some of those probably could have been much less expensive brands if I'd had more buying wherewithal. And my rear channels are 'over-powered and over-speakered'.

All 'like new' in box, sourced with a little patience on this forum's classifieds and a couple of BNIB introduction/closeout sales also found here. Then the tons of great DIYMA advice on getting it all tuned.

Don't know how my system would fare in competition but for a tad under $2k I'm mighty pleased with the sound I've ended up with..... all as a result of tripping on DIYMA a few years ago.

Above the $2k .... lots of 'street price' sound deadening, power/speaker wiring, and a slew of very inexpensive nice quality home-made RCA cables.

I've got another $150 MS-5001 not included above - may install that someday but for now the single 5001 driving two BMmkIV's is doing fine for me


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> People say the flutes don't have good upper mid range.


That may very well be true. But they do much better then the audison did, like no comparison better. I realize a big help is having a tweeter that is crossed 1k lower. I was never happy with the apk set, zero mid bass and to keep things from getting harsh the mid had to be crossed to low for the tweeter to match. 

The swap summed up diy for me. Much less expensive drivers that perform far better then their comparable pre packed offerings. 

This is just from the perspective of a moderately educated user. I'm far from pro and there is zero for competitions around here. I just know it sounds way better  

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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I never messed with Audison speakers. Would love a set of Thesis though. 
I've been very happy with my Hertz XLs. I've had them for going on 6 years and don't see them going away in 6 more. They where a good investment considering how often most people swap speakers.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Audison makes Hertz speakers. Same company, I am currently running some Hertz HSK XL paired with Morel tweeters, they take the power well, over 200W yes more bass, but my Morel Hybrids played more clear and better with the same power, less bass yes, but the weight difference added to each door with the Hertz was not worth the extra bass, the sub can compensate for it. It was like the Hertz played the same way with 100W compared to 230 watts, maybe that is a good thing, the Morels were a huge improvement from 100W to 220W plus, and I tried both low passed from 3000 to 1800 hz in 100hz ranges 
They will be coming out soon.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Same company but different designs.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

The voce is somewhere in between the Mille and HSK, maybe less bass than the HSK XL but a better system than the regular HSK, and tweeters are similar in between the HSK and HSK XL and Mille


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Competitions are fun and if you win or place its fun to brag about it. But in reality many compitions outside of spl is very subjective to the judge. That being said you can put together a system for much less if you can fabricate, deal with wiring and it takes a lot of tweaking etc. also comp cars take a long time to get right. 
Its amazing people get caught up in the marketing and why we think the best from several years ago isn't as good as the newest latest greatest. 
Putting a system together with Dayton, peerless, moral etc is doable for far less then permafrost sets. I remember when you couldn't even hardly compete unless you had me quart, jl subs and precision power amps. The quart set was 1000. 
Go for it.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Does the $40k include the installation labor and deadening materials?

No clue how a system can get that high, to me 20k was as high as it could get for a car, that is just crazy, I'm curious to find out what makes it that high I bet it is the amps, maybe maybe 6 at $3k each and the rest just fancy expensive components.


But it can be beaten with $4k I'm sure


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

We have less than $4k in the minivan...and it's already accomplished what you're talking about Mike more than once.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

Alrojoca said:


> Does the $40k include the installation labor and deadening materials?
> 
> No clue how a system can get that high, to me 20k was as high as it could get for a car, that is just crazy, I'm curious to find out what makes it that high I bet it is the amps, maybe maybe 6 at $3k each and the rest just fancy expensive components.
> 
> ...


yes that price includes what he was willing to pay for labor that I'm not..and that maybe be weird to some but it makes a huge farging difference.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

papasin said:


> We have less than $4k in the minivan...and it's already accomplished what you're talking about Mike more than once.



yess..but call me unpopular but..i don't think the mini van has ever been fairly judged so I take this with a grain of salt


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Lycancatt said:


> yess..but call me unpopular but..i don't think the mini van has ever been fairly judged so I take this with a grain of salt



The first time we competed the mini van you were the judge...


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

and I scored it a 75 or so, and liked it quite a bit. no getting round it its a damn fine system..but is it an 80 point car? not when I heard it..might be now and I did like the install/simplicity of it enough to give it another listen


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Lycancatt said:


> yess..but call me unpopular but..i don't think the mini van has ever been fairly judged so I take this with a grain of salt


In addition to that first time when you were the sole judge in a MECA 2X event, our minivan also competed in two separate triple point events with 3 judges each, with none of the three judges overlapping. In those occasions, it also did well doing better than vehicles in its class up against builds costing a significant amount more...which I thought was the point of your thread.

I'm dumfounded by your statement about our minivan not ever being fairly judged, since not yourself withstanding, you are basically saying that at least 6 other judges weren't being fair. Quite confused really, considering I was only trying to support your OP and doing as you requested in giving you example(s).

Anyway, good luck in your endeavor and hope you bring your vehicle in the lanes and look forward to hearing it. I'm not on DIYMA as much these these days and only caught this thread in passing. I'm out.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm going low budget in my new rig. Not being near as serious about the hobby as I used to be I'm just using carefully selected speakers with a good bang for the buck processor and some other goodies. Probably end up with a ported 15" in the back on about 500rms because I do need my old school hip hop fix quite often. Sub will be loud as hell when I want it to and sound "good enough" when it has to. I'll be using what I learned over the past couple years to put a good rta tune on the fronts with a good tonality curve then enhance the fronts with rearfill processed like it needs to be. No one will ever convince me that you need to drop big coin to get good sound. Spend wisely putting the money where it will make the biggest difference and be smart enough to know where money shouldn't be wasted. There's nothing wrong with having high end gear for the cool factor as long as one doesn't have to justify their purchase to others. "Because I wanted it" is good enough reason for me.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'm going low budget in my new rig. Not being near as serious about the hobby as I used to be I'm just using carefully selected speakers with a good bang for the buck processor and some other goodies. Probably end up with a ported 15" in the back on about 500rms because I do need my old school hip hop fix quite often. Sub will be loud as hell when I want it to and sound "good enough" when it has to. I'll be using what I learned over the past couple years to put a good rta tune on the fronts with a good tonality curve then enhance the fronts with rearfill processed like it needs to be. No one will ever convince me that you need to drop big coin to get good sound. Spend wisely putting the money where it will make the biggest difference and be smart enough to know where money shouldn't be wasted. There's nothing wrong with having high end gear for the cool factor as long as one doesn't have to justify their purchase to others. "Because I wanted it" is good enough reason for me.




If you can wheel and deal you would be surprised as to what "high end" gear you can purchase for the price a new middle to entry range price range product...

I mean nothing I own has cost me more than 50% of MSRP and most of it is BNIB - uses can be had for lower..

There is always a guy who is either to rich to care or too desperate to hold on to it... 


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'll never cheap out on deadener again. Noico sucks


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm about to embark on putting a set of 8" midbass upfront (going 3-way). A bit of an issue with mounting depth and space between door panel. Finding the mids with decent specs and reasonable cost adds to the problem. For now I've ordered a set of 9 dollar mids (24 bucks shipped) to play with to see what a higher Qts/Fs/Qms will bring vs the usual suggestions that roll into the 300 buck range. 

Basically, a cheap experiment that will help lead me into the right direction before taking a deep pocket plunge. Of course, there's always some ear buzzing naysayer because too many have gone the way of high cost or certain brand name equals better, best, or what have you. I have no problem experimenting with inexpensive gear vs taking a gamble with high dollar stuff. Just because it costs more doesn't mean it's perfect for the application. Sometimes you have to look beyond that.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Here is one tip that I think may be important.
Every little detail helps, from what I have seen, good power under 13 volts can be one of the most important details assuming both vehicles are tuned well. With a single battery a system can start or be judged with 12.6 volts, right of the bat that voltage is lower than what manufacturers rate their power amplifiers and it is a disadvantage, and during or after the voltage may be barely over 12 volts. 

In other words, cars with extra batteries are the ones that score 78 and above 80 points.
3 12" subs may not be necessary, 2 and one can still hold their own. Not saying a single battery car can not score 80 points. It would that be a question for the judges regarding numbers of sytemes with extra batteries scoring higher, that I doubt many even take the time to notice or even take notes about it. Just my guess. 

Some of the best systems, 1st place or state podium systems may have additional expensive devices besides extra batteries that will keep the voltage even at 14 plus volts, that will have an impact on power to the sound no doubt, not sure these devices are legal, but 2 or 3 additional batteries are legal and are the ones that make that half of point or 1 point extra to take the win, from what I have seen in the top categories.

Just like in any sport, every detail helps, bike road racing, if you pick the wrong tire for the current humidity and temperature, ( soft, hard, medium) if you use a $3 gauge for the tire pressure, versus a $150 that will give you precise calibration and pressure based on altitude, temperature and humidity that extra pound of pressure is the difference in a fraction of a second per lap, or the difference in turning faster to pass the opponent, and let's not even get in to the 200 different adjustments these bikes have, or the $40 per gallon gas they use, some days the best set up for the track combined with and average rider in a good mental state, can be the difference taking first place.

I did not mean to get off topic, just throwing some points. For example Mike, if you tune that 40k system, and tune another 4 K system for other people, not knowing they will compete against each other, there is a good chance the 40 k system will score a quarter point higher or more.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

Bayboy said:


> I'm about to embark on putting a set of 8" midbass upfront (going 3-way). A bit of an issue with mounting depth and space between door panel. Finding the mids with decent specs and reasonable cost adds to the problem. For now I've ordered a set of 9 dollar mids (24 bucks shipped) to play with to see what a higher Qts/Fs/Qms will bring vs the usual suggestions that roll into the 300 buck range.
> 
> Basically, a cheap experiment that will help lead me into the right direction before taking a deep pocket plunge. Of course, there's always some ear buzzing naysayer because too many have gone the way of high cost or certain brand name equals better, best, or what have you. I have no problem experimenting with inexpensive gear vs taking a gamble with high dollar stuff. Just because it costs more doesn't mean it's perfect for the application. Sometimes you have to look beyond that.



this right here is imo the true spirit of diyma and more should take this approach! would love to hear your results.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I've run mids from JBL, Dayton, SI, SB, Diamond, Audax, to no telling what else. I'm not ashamed to say one of the best was some Jamo clearance mids from Partsexpress. They simply performed in every way you would like except for maximum output. Want to cross low? They handled it. Mate up with a small tweet? Not an issue. Detailed midrange? Sure. All with low distortion. I have two sets that will stay in my arsenal simply because that kind of performance is hard to come across without spending a wad of cash. When the time comes again, I'll use them. 

I can see how it's so easy for people to get caught up in staying above a certain brand or cost if they compete. However, if you're just a regular hobbyist fiddling around in a daily driver, I really don't see the need when there's plenty of resources to easily outdo what your local Bestbuy or even favorite e-tailer has to offer. If you don't get caught up in the race then it's very easy to do.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

I used to think you had to have the high dollar drivers til I bought and used a pair of the Tang Band bamboo 3's. $40 each and not only the best sounding 3 I've ever heard but one of the best sounding speakers period. Hit a couple MECA shows with them and won my class with them running full range and paired with some JL midbass in the doors. 

There are some speakers I think are worth the money. Scan Revelators are still my favorite speaker but they're the exception rather than the rule. 

For amps, I definitely think the $1000+ amps aren't worth the money. Maybe if it's a solid 5 channel that you're gonna run your whole system off like RF's Power 5 channel (100x5+600x1) but generally I've always used, and won, using mid line amps that run around $300 each.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mike, im assuming your friend is chet? you cant argue with him. the guy is delusional and irrational. dont waste your time. he once tried to argue with me that a 50k dollar 5000 watt amp that didnt exist would sound better and louder than any other 5000 watt amp, just because of price.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

I like the theme of this thread. Complete opposite of that crazy 'RCA cable' thread. You don't need boutique-level gear to get true high quality sound. More with less seems to me to be more in line with the spirit of this website. 
Please continue!


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## SR500 (Dec 6, 2016)

I've been a little disappointed that this site is so full of users running high end equipment versus being a best bang for the buck kind of place. Maybe my memory is off, but it seemed like ECA had a bigger segment of users experimenting with raw drivers 10-15 years ago. I always loved getting great sound out of cheap drivers back then, and I recall many in the same boat. I guess that a few users like dingaling and cheapboy were leading the way, and others like myself were motivated by their findings.


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## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

I want to try a build with raw drivers. I have a set of flutes sitting on the counter and a set of the questionable alpine pro tweeters and a sound stream 5 channel on the way. I'm having trouble finding a sub to match because it's a crew cab Chevy with the 60/40 seat and I'm limited on space. I really like this site though because a lot of people have tried a lot of different things and it makes it easier with us newbies trying to build a low budget but good sounding system.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

When you say raw driver are you referring to something only bought at a wholesale web site or just any speaker that can be bought individually? Because any component set can be bought raw. Imo thats a raw driver. Home audio, mobile audio. They are all raw


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## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> When you say raw driver are you referring to something only bought at a wholesale web site or just any speaker that can be bought individually? Because any component set can be bought raw. Imo thats a raw driver. Home audio, mobile audio. They are all raw


When I say raw driver, I'm thinking of stuff from parts express or madisound. Something that doesn't typically come in a component set and that I'm planning to run active instead of passive. Usually flute, Dayton, vifa. Things of that nature.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Yes but you can buy most if not all component sets by only the mids or tweeters. Same thing right?


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## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yes but you can buy most if not all component sets by only the mids or tweeters. Same thing right?


Imo If I bought a single 6.5 alpine speaker I would call it a replacement instead of raw but in theory you are correct. But again if one of my flutes blows and I had to get another one it would be a replacement. I really don't see where we are going with this but it is killing time until supercross comes on. Lol


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## glockcoma (Dec 22, 2015)

When I think raw driver I'm thinking of a speaker that isn't marketed as vehicle specific or come with pre made crossovers but happens to have the specs that make it work.


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## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm a pretty firm believer you get what you pay for......within reason. I have always loved first generation Nakamichi amps and they sound great, clean as a whistle but not big on power. I heard a SS Van Gogh VGA800.5 and was blown away with its sound quality.
Then I heard a McIntosh MC431 and a MCC404 and was even more impressed. So I do believe you get what you pay for the most part.
Same with drivers I have heard some Alpine components that I wouldn't pay Two Bits for and another more expensive set that sounded great.
Also I had two sets of C5-570-CSI that I upgraded to ZR-650-CSI and those were light years ahead if the C5-570's.

But I agree its no guarantee that more money translates into better quality. I will soon have two sets of Dynaudio System 242 going in to replace my ZR-650-CSI and I will see how that plays out.
I just don't buy into any amp or speaker all sound the same. It takes money and quality resources to produce quality things. Is it always worth it......hell no that's why you do research before you lay down your hard earned money !!


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## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

Marky said:


> I'm a pretty firm believer you get what you pay for......within reason. I have always loved first generation Nakamichi amps and they sound great, clean as a whistle but not big on power. I heard a SS Van Gogh VGA800.5 and was blown away with its sound quality.
> Then I heard a McIntosh MC431 and a MCC404 and was even more impressed. So I do believe you get what you pay for the most part.
> Same with drivers I have heard some Alpine components that I wouldn't pay Two Bits for and another more expensive set that sounded great.
> Also I had two sets of C5-570-CSI that I upgraded to ZR-650-CSI and those were light years ahead if the C5-570's.
> ...


And some people might have a different interpretation of quality. 
NEW CRITICAL MASS UL12 THE BEST SUBWOOFER 12'' SUB NR | eBay


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> Mike, im assuming your friend is chet? you cant argue with him. the guy is delusional and irrational. dont waste your time. he once tried to argue with me that a 50k dollar 5000 watt amp that didnt exist would sound better and louder than any other 5000 watt amp, just because of price.



yep..its chet. we are friendly, in that I know he's nuts and doesn't want to listen, but I've gained his respect and so we have this longterm bet going on..haven't even set a prize for the winner lol. if you can get past his opinionated slightly dickish first impression, he's a very knowlegable guy..but I do get why many avoid him.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

Aslmx said:


> I really don't see where we are going with this but it is killing time until supercross comes on. Lol


Pfffffffft. Try being in Canada! FS1 isn't available here. I have to wait until Sunday morning to download it. 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Aslmx said:


> And some people might have a different interpretation of quality.
> 
> NEW CRITICAL MASS UL12 THE BEST SUBWOOFER 12'' SUB NR | eBay




Has anyone actually heard that sub by the way? Is it a rebranded product or did they actually make it?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Lycancatt said:


> yep..its chet. we are friendly, in that I know he's nuts and doesn't want to listen, but I've gained his respect and so we have this longterm bet going on..haven't even set a prize for the winner lol. if you can get past his opinionated slightly dickish first impression, he's a very knowlegable guy..but I do get why many avoid him.


chet's system is 40k? how?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I kind of suspected it, based on the info but I was not 100% sure

I would like to know how many amps the system has, that's probably where most of the money is, unless he uses $500 RCA's and at least 2 batteries if not more.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Alrojoca said:


> I kind of suspected it, based on the info but I was not 100% sure
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to know how many amps the system has, that's probably where most of the money is, unless he uses $500 RCA's and at least 2 batteries if not more.




Bewith system? Can add up especially if you you one of those $10k processors top end speakers also not cheap and that mirror station add 7 mono amps some proper RCA cables and a proper install I am sure it's about the $40k mark... 

A set of Ultimas? Few HV amps and a ODR HU and Source some cabling and install also get you there...


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## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Aslmx said:


> And some people might have a different interpretation of quality.
> NEW CRITICAL MASS UL12 THE BEST SUBWOOFER 12'' SUB NR | eBay


I have also seen the Critical Mass amplifiers for $18,000.00 yea what a joke. Their marketing is showing movie stars and rock bands own their products. Not how or why their product is worth anything close to what they are charging.

In this case this thread is dead on for sure. But I have heard a lot of different amplifiers and stereos over the years and you usually get what you pay for. Within reason of coarse.


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## #1BigMike (Aug 17, 2014)

Need some clarification please.

Does the $40k include install or is it $40k for equipment only?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I agree you get what you pay for to a certain degree. However, this forum started out as a group of people who refused to pay a premium for something if it was a $40 speaker rebadged with maybe a couple other tweaks and a $200 price tag slapped on it. There's "getting what you pay for", and then there's just plain paying too much. Why pay $1000 for an amp with a high end name on it when a $400 amp that does the same power and built just as well AND sounds just as good will do the same thing? There's no guarantee a name and $600 extra dollars will equal longevity or better sound especially if the internals between said two amps are of equal quality. Then let's not forget about companies that sell overpriced junk because some rapper endorses it. 

In closing, I really do hope this thread helps bring diyma back to its roots of getting the best bang for the buck. Some people feel it's worth paying crazy money for a small percentage better and maybe an extra point in competition. For those of us who don't have a big play budget and/or don't take car audio as serious as others we'll stick with doing our research to get the best we can for as little as possible. I do enjoy listening to real competition grade systems that are dialed in but when I look at all that went into them to get that way I quickly realize why competing with the big boys isn't for everyone. If anything, if I competed it would be for spl. Burp for a mic and that's your score. And getting loud is just plain FUN. Maybe it's just the ******* in me coming out?


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I agree you get what you pay for to a certain degree. However, this forum started out as a group of people who refused to pay a premium for something if it was a $40 speaker rebadged with maybe a couple other tweaks and a $200 price tag slapped on it. There's "getting what you pay for", and then there's just plain paying too much. Why pay $1000 for an amp with a high end name on it when a $400 amp that does the same power and built just as well AND sounds just as good will do the same thing? There's no guarantee a name and $600 extra dollars will equal longevity or better sound especially if the internals between said two amps are of equal quality. Then let's not forget about companies that sell overpriced junk because some rapper endorses it.
> 
> In closing, I really do hope this thread helps bring diyma back to its roots of getting the best bang for the buck. Some people feel it's worth paying crazy money for a small percentage better and maybe an extra point in competition. For those of us who don't have a big play budget and/or don't take car audio as serious as others we'll stick with doing our research to get the best we can for as little as possible. I do enjoy listening to real competition grade systems that are dialed in but when I look at all that went into them to get that way I quickly realize why competing with the big boys isn't for everyone. If anything, if I competed it would be for spl. Burp for a mic and that's your score. And getting loud is just plain FUN. Maybe it's just the ******* in me coming out?


I miss those days. After running the forum favorite ppi365cs back in the day and came back looking for new stuff for my new ride, everything was Morell ,AudioFrog, and mosconi. Stuff average people cant afford.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

PorkCereal said:


> I miss those days. After running the forum favorite ppi365cs back in the day and came back looking for new stuff for my new ride, everything was Morell ,AudioFrog, and mosconi. Stuff average people cant afford.


The GB Frogs woulda been perfect for my install but I'm not putting something that expensive in something with a factory source unit. And the side defrost vents blow right on the tweeters. I ran a pair of Mosconi One series amps. Nothing special at all and the JL XD amps sound a lot better to me with what sounds like better control of the speakers. I'm sure the AS and Zero series are worlds better but out of reach for a lot of people.


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

Im pretty happy with the SI stuff price to performance, if you don't mind dealing with the business model. But no one i know of around me has the stupid expensive stuff to hear the difference 3x the money sounds. 
Im always open to price to perfomance but i dont know where the diminishing return begins.


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## Aslmx (Jan 10, 2017)

Has their ever been a blind fold sq competition where cheapest system wins? I think that would be fun to see and experience.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm sure we can agree, that spending $35,000 extra can have more chances to get a quarter of a point higher score than the $5000 system. 


Didn't that system have 3 JL subs? And a Dynaaudio front stage?

I was not aware that there were processors costing more than $1500-2000 for a car, unless it's one of those new ones with 24 channels and built in amplifiers. 

That is why, if that system has 6 amplifiers at $4K-5k each that gets it to $24-30k worth of just amps.
Maybe $4k for the device that keeps the voltage at 14.4 V and the rest is easier to calculate 

I'm sure there is more to it than just that for winning the state championship, some tuning trick, and minor voodoo ticks that makes it score more, having nothting to do with the cost of system itself.
Special dash mats, panel treatments to minimize reflections. Again every little detail helps to get that extra 0.25 point for the win.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

7 amps, four audison unos and 3 synphoni somethings, 1 being a grave cause I overheated it lol. audio development midbasses, two per side $2800 right there. five batteries and custom alt plus more.his system is an almost no compromise approach, and a good portion of that 40k is in install work/fab.

stock headunit
audiocontrol lc7i
alpine pxa h800
symphoni amps for front stage, presto and grave? two of the prestos I think..not sure model on mid/high amps but I know its 3 separate amps with the grave being on midbass.
dynaudio esotar 110 and 430
4 audio development carbon mids..$2800 in midbass drivers alone lol
4 w7 12 drivers with four audison uno amps on them, seven amps total.
5 batteries, custom 375 a alternator, and some voltage stablizers by herison labs which made a friggen huge difference.

theres got to be 2k in wiring alone in this car, audioquest rcas but not the stupid expensive ones, lots of 0 everywhere..

its fun to see whats possible at the extreme high end, and he's not afraid to show it off or demo/explain it. he's one of the few that has this much invested and will let you climb in and just pound on it to see why dynamics and almost limitless output is important.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

Aslmx said:


> Has their ever been a blind fold sq competition where cheapest system wins? I think that would be fun to see and experience.



i am totally blind, and was a meca judge for awhile till asked to leave cause i wouldn't drink certain peoples coolaid and certain people didn't win..long story that doesn't really need to be told as I'm damn happy to be out of it. so yeah..thats as close as we got.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

I've set up a few single-blind listening tests for Lycancatt, but I swear he's always peeking when I'm not looking haha.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

Jazzi said:


> I've set up a few single-blind listening tests for Lycancatt, but I swear he's always peeking when I'm not looking haha.



nope..i'm just that good #noego lol.

my proposed system to give you all a bit of a laugh or let you know my goals..

creative sounds mids and tweeters cause I got a hell of a deal, or the sb big tweeters which I also have.

peerless sls 8 midbasses, two per side depending on the vehicle.

Dayton ultimax 15s, probably 3.

Rockford punch or powerbass class ab/d asa series amps.

h800 for processing which I already own thanks to a good friend at a police auction.

this should have tons of output, be clean and detailed, and not set me back far at all, leaving room for deadener and wiring. will I bet the 40 k system in shear spl? doubtful, but you never know.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

PorkCereal said:


> I miss those days. After running the forum favorite ppi365cs back in the day and came back looking for new stuff for my new ride, everything was Morell ,AudioFrog, and mosconi. Stuff average people cant afford.



If you're referring to the black & gold phase plug component set, I wouldn't even consider that from "back in the day". It would have to include the usual suggestions of raw Seas, Usher, Scan, Aurum Cantus and other gear with those I just mentioned being the higher end of things to give you a clue. If you look back in the archives you will see there was even more use of inexpensive gear like Cadence amps, Peerless, Dayton, Vifa, etc. Heck, I remember when the Dayton Reference series first came out they were shielded and the cup had to be knocked off to fit in a door, but that is what was chosen over throwing down a wad of cash for the latest & greatest car branded gear that costed 2-3x that much. I was part of another car audio forum long gone back then, but I do remember those days well. 

Of course things have advanced to where you can get a bit better quality for cheap, but that's a far cry from the usual regurgitated suggestions in spending high dollars seen here for the past 3-5 years or so. Now all of the inexpensive gear is looked upon as inferior and not even given a glance to see if it suits an application better than something calling for a consumer to make it rain like in a strip club. It sort of kills the fun in learning as well as the realization of where the line is drawn in diminishing returns.


Again though.... and I think it's been stated a few times already, there's two camps to this whole ordeal. Maybe three. Those that compete and those that don't. Then there's a lot more dealers on here than it was back then. You can imagine where it goes from there though this should be a place of neutral ground where equal attention is given into research & info shared regardless of what is ran.


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

Well the 2 way set from 2007 when ppi was still owned by directed electronics, 10 years things have changed a bit


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

PorkCereal said:


> I miss those days. After running the forum favorite ppi365cs back in the day and came back looking for new stuff for my new ride, everything was Morell ,AudioFrog, and mosconi. Stuff average people cant afford.


LOL, I still have a NIB set of those PPI 356cs comps. Also run a set in my daily. They were a great deal back then and compared to the gear you mentioned....an even better deal now!


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Already been covered numerous times, but there is absolutely a point where you get less improvement per dollar spent. I think I have about $2,000 in my system and I think it sounds pretty decent. I fully suspect someone who is more skilled at tuning than me can make it even better.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I think what we should do is evolve this thread into a sort of "graph", a bell curve if you will, of performance per dollar. We could then extrapolate a basic understanding beyond just saying "its good" or "its expensive but good". I'd propose we do this with the understanding that amps should be separate from processors, tweeters separate from mids, etc. A bell curve of cost to performance for a given item. Or perhaps it would be a logarithmic plot. Point is, although it would be highly subjective, we could go through most brands and models and assign them an arbitary performance / dollar ratio that, through voting, should arrive at a reasonable conclusion. 

Of course, I contend that install makes up at least 90% of the results if not closer to 99%, there's still that sweet spot of expense that one can expect to get results.

Example, I'd say for subs, about $150-$200 is the sweet spot per sub. And for tweeters, about $50 a pair is where things usually start getting pretty good. But we can get more accurate with more subjective opinions and it may help newbs as well as veterans getting back in the game.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Well on the OP, it's like this. One either knows how to tune and hence one realizes that the resolution on the dsp, a decent install and some room treatment is way more important than the amp, speakers etc, once you cross a basic threshold. 

Or, one doesn't truly understand the value of tuning, and hence chases nominal changes from swapping equipment.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Well on the OP, it's like this. One either knows how to tune and hence one realizes that the resolution on the dsp, a decent install and some room treatment is way more important than the amp, speakers etc, once you cross a basic threshold.
> 
> Or, one doesn't truly understand the value of tuning, and hence chases nominal changes from swapping equipment.


I like how some here folks call it "optimization" over "tuning". 

Its a good way to explain it, and its now how I explain it to newbs. Tuning implies one thing, optimization seems to mean another (to the un-knowing.)


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

fourthmeal said:


> I like how some here folks call it "optimization" over "tuning".
> 
> Its a good way to explain it, and its now how I explain it to newbs. Tuning implies one thing, optimization seems to mean another (to the un-knowing.)


A spade like tool for moving earth, coal or snow, is still a shovel.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

sqnut said:


> A spade like tool for moving earth, coal or snow, is still a shovel.


I like to think of it more like a bucket for making sand castles.

Its tedious, it can fall apart at a moment's notice, it requires tiny details to add after the basic shape is made, and it looks glorious when its done.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> Of course, I contend that install makes up at least 90% of the results if not closer to 99%, there's still that sweet spot of expense that one can expect to get results.


This is interesting as I would have thought the quality of the head-unit might count for more? You know, the old adage "garbage in, garbage out"? Of course, a good tune/optimization might help offset some head-unit shortcomings. But, aren't there some head-units that seem to shine above others and don't they usually require at least a marginal investment?
I could be completely wrong in this line of thinking though.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

PPI_GUY said:


> This is interesting as I would have thought the quality of the head-unit might count for more? You know, the old adage "garbage in, garbage out"? Of course, a good tune/optimization might help offset some head-unit shortcomings. But, aren't there some head-units that seem to shine above others and don't they usually require at least a marginal investment?
> 
> I could be completely wrong in this line of thinking though.




I say too much emphasis on tuning .... if tuning is 90% then we can just buy the el cheapo range of everything and it should sound the same as a top spec'd Sinfoni or ZR Speaker lab system 

Assuming you know how to tune a car... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lycancatt said:


> i am totally blind, and was a meca judge for awhile till asked to leave cause i wouldn't drink certain peoples coolaid and certain people didn't win..long story that doesn't really need to be told as I'm damn happy to be out of it. so yeah..thats as close as we got.


If that is why you think you were asked to leave... I think you have been drinking PLENTY of koolaid. 

Mike, you may be blind, but you are still the only judge to EVER reach for my processor (Which has NOTHING to do with volume or any controls you may need), while judging my system, in fact, it is in the sunglasses holder, nowhere near ANYTHING else... 

So when you judge a vehicle, and are reaching for ****, while you are judging it, and score it SUBSTANTIALLY lower than the other 2 judges did, I wonder: Was he actually focusing on the task of judging my vehicle or does he just not give a ****?

No Need to respond, what is done is done, and I know for a fact I did not have the best sounding car that day: I listened to better. But don't plant a little seed like you did and distort the truth in why you were asked not to judge again. 

You're a knowledgeable guy and I am sure you have good ears, but your mini rant has me questioning what is between them.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Please stop putting percentages of importance on things like install, tuning, and equipment. It's just plain stupid to do so

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Please stop putting percentages of importance on things like install, tuning, and equipment. It's just plain stupid to do so
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I'm 92% sure that you are correct.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I'm 92% sure that you are correct.


and 100% sure you have a bad meme for this :laugh:


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I'm 92% sure that you are correct.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> and 100% sure you have a bad meme for this :laugh:


Will a comic strip do?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Will a comic strip do?


69% solid


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

stop


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

benny z said:


> stop


your 12% fun


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

`


DLO13 said:


> If that is why you think you were asked to leave... I think you have been drinking PLENTY of koolaid.
> 
> Mike, you may be blind, but you are still the only judge to EVER reach for my processor (Which has NOTHING to do with volume or any controls you may need), while judging my system, in fact, it is in the sunglasses holder, nowhere near ANYTHING else...
> 
> ...



I don't have to respond, but since its still a bug up your butt I feel that its good that I do.

I went looking for your processor control, knowing that you have an h800, also knowing you were going to get a low score on linearity at the high end if I didn't find a tad more volume..guess whats the only knob on the c800? yep..volume! so you can think whatever you want and you obviously have, but why didn't you ask me at the time? or bring it up privately if you felt it was some huge issue that actually made you question my brain usage? I stand by what I said and if you don't believe it, that's totally fine, but for you to harp on one little thing is ridiculous and petty.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I agree that putting a percentage on the importance of tuning/install is silly, but we have to eknowlege that a lot of the inspiration of this thread was? what can you do with little while others spend lots? what can I do with little? tune well and consider a lot of factors like acoustic treatment and such, and how far can that take me? well we shall see someday, but I do think in the long run what you do with the gear is miles more important than what gear you do it with.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lycancatt said:


> `
> 
> 
> I don't have to respond, but since its still a bug up your butt I feel that its good that I do.
> ...



Mike, I have a w910. 
The knob on the H800 does not function for volume with a w910. 
Again, you are full of ****.

And I have more volume than any judge ever needs.
Again, you are absolutely full of ****.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

What you do with the gear vs what gear you do it with is that fine line. It's that gray area that many avoid. Yet, I find I like to live in that area because that's where it's no longer about price or necessarily you get what you pay for. Rather it's deal with your skills at choosing proper parts regardless of price or brand. 

For instance, Infinite baffle always seems to be one of the most debated or confusing topics here and elsewhere. Some even believe that anything can work. Well perhaps to a degree. Maybe you can move all sorts of sliders around, add filters, punch holes in the cone, slit spiders, or whatever to make it work. Or maybe you can just choose the most suitable gear for that PARTICULAR install to cut to the chase. That seems to be a big issue with the latter. Just because that same product did well in a conventional enclosure doesn't mean it will do even better in another despite what some say. The same train of thought applies to all else. 

So tuning is important, but so is optimization (which is the term I use for having the right parts maximally installed). Tuning should come after optimization. However, at some point it can all become semantics.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

DLO13 said:


> Mike, I have a w910.
> The knob on the H800 does not function for volume with a w910.
> Again, you are full of ****.
> 
> ...



I did not realize what headunit you had so you are absolutely right in that my efforts were for naught. I find it sad that you were once one of the competitors I truly wanted to help/work with, someone whose approach mirrored a lot of what I thought was important in car audio, go big or go home, more cone area, more power than you'll ever need..but its come to this. notice dear readers, I have not felt the need to belittle this poster even though he has done it both here and rather more vigorously on other platforms I don't read but do get told about..i stick by what I said, you are being exceptionally petty


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Elektra said:


> I say too much emphasis on tuning .... if tuning is 90% then we can just buy the el cheapo range of everything and it should sound the same as a top spec'd Sinfoni or ZR Speaker lab system
> 
> Assuming you know how to tune a car...
> 
> ...


I'd say YES, yes it should.

As long as "el cheapo" meets a low distortion, proper performance standard. Example, Fountek, or Dayton drivers, Silver Flutes, SB Acoustics, SEAS, etc etc., 

So yeah, I firmly believe that a well-tuned/optimized system can keep up with highly expensive stuff, provided these basics are met.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

fourthmeal said:


> I think what we should do is evolve this thread into a sort of "graph", a bell curve if you will, of performance per dollar. We could then extrapolate a basic understanding beyond just saying "its good" or "its expensive but good". I'd propose we do this with the understanding that amps should be separate from processors, tweeters separate from mids, etc. A bell curve of cost to performance for a given item. Or perhaps it would be a logarithmic plot. Point is, although it would be highly subjective, we could go through most brands and models and assign them an arbitary performance / dollar ratio that, through voting, should arrive at a reasonable conclusion.
> 
> Of course, I contend that install makes up at least 90% of the results if not closer to 99%, there's still that sweet spot of expense that one can expect to get results.
> 
> Example, I'd say for subs, about $150-$200 is the sweet spot per sub. And for tweeters, about $50 a pair is where things usually start getting pretty good. But we can get more accurate with more subjective opinions and it may help newbs as well as veterans getting back in the game.


In theory, I like the idea. In execution, to do this correctly the task is so monumental that it borders on impossible. The first hurdle is that it would almost certainly be subjective. (We all know the reaction to subjective reviews.) And coming to a consensus on driver price : performance ratio based on collective, subjective reviews will likely be the equivalent of getting our wives/girlfriends to decide where to go to dinner.

You could get around that with consistent, single source, single method, objective testing. But with such testing the hurdles become the logistics and finances to have all of the various drivers tested. Again, no small task. And while there would certainly still be nay-sayers, at least there will be "pretty" pictures.

In the mean time we have the status quo of the collective knowledge of DIYMA and sources like it. Some information from active research and some just regurgitating what they have seen other say a hundred times before them. 

Yes, my friend, I fear all we have left to do is to sit back and watch the effects of entropy on DIYMA become more apparent with each passing day. 

TL;DR


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

PPI_GUY said:


> This is interesting as I would have thought the quality of the head-unit might count for more? You know, the old adage "garbage in, garbage out"? Of course, a good tune/optimization might help offset some head-unit shortcomings. But, aren't there some head-units that seem to shine above others and don't they usually require at least a marginal investment?
> I could be completely wrong in this line of thinking though.


GIGO is definitely a problem, but a stock head unit outputting to a processor via speaker out through the factory amp (like I have to have) can potentially still be good, as it just depends on the upstream gear's performance. Aftermarket or OEM, RCA or speaker-level.

We definitely want minimal loss through the head unit though. Some people are so lucky as to even be able to use an aftermarket head.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

What kind of car was it Mike?


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

fourthmeal said:


> I'd say YES, yes it should.
> 
> As long as "el cheapo" meets a low distortion, proper performance standard. Example, Fountek, or Dayton drivers, Silver Flutes, SB Acoustics, SEAS, etc etc.,
> 
> So yeah, I firmly believe that a well-tuned/optimized system can keep up with highly expensive stuff, provided these basics are met.




Well you only mentioned speakers what about a ODR source and DSP vs a OEM cheap HU? Or a lightning audio amp vs a Sinfoni? 

As good as a tuner may be I am pretty sure he could get a better result if he had proper tools to work with...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

fourthmeal said:


> I think what we should do is evolve this thread into a sort of "graph"..............


I'll give it a try. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a decent venn diagram creator? Jesus wept.

I don't even know if I'm using that right.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

Alrojoca said:


> What kind of car was it Mike?



what type of car is which? the discussed vehicle, chets car, is a ford edge. mine will be a cargo van or similar largish vehicle cause that's the only car I could justify buying for work reasons..gotta haul the pro audio around or it isn't worth the investment.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

I try to live in the 'nobody cares' area

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

street.terror said:


> I try to live in the 'nobody cares' area
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Me too. I like my stuff to be sexy in a utilitarian sort of way. These SB Acoustics woofers that will be going in my doors are pretty damn sexy!

I'm going to do my install by starting at the back of the vehicle and work my way forward so I don't have to do a makeshift amp rack. Stock speaker wire will be tapped into at the stock amp since I'll be back there anyway getting signal from the front door woofers and tweets for the Fix82. This will leave the stock poly 6x9's in doors (think they're the blue Alpine woofers) and fabric tweets in sail panels on 75rms each and a pretty good processor. May as well see how much I can polish the stock turds. And factory d-pillar speakers will be used for rearfill with no plans of changing them since they're for enhancement purposes only. Not audible until they're not. In other words, I'm going to see just how good I can get really cheap speakers to sound. Probably costs FCA about $50 tops for all 4 "premium" speakers in front doors and sails.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't know if it's been mentioned but there's absolutely the psychoacoustic effect of 'pride of ownership'. If someone pays more for a product they feel is worth it and that helps improve their listening experience, it's not my place to tell them they're wrong. Helping them understand alternatives and rationalize why item A may be better than item B even though it costs less is fine. In some ways, it's also akin to the DIY mentality. I've seen, and have been part of, people spending countless amounts of money on an install they did themselves when a shop could have done a better job and saved them money in the long run. The reason for the DIY method being acceptable is "because I did it myself". That's pride of ownership/work. Even though it still cost more in the long run. 

Additionally, sometimes paying "up" for a certain product because it helps you save in other areas is perfectly reasonable. I'm a fan of buying a good speaker with near-flat on-axis response and off-axis response that mimics the on-axis (outside of beaming, as it falls in amplitude). There are a lot of "DIY" speakers that do this and a lot that don't. Some cost a lot. Some cost very little. Then you have to account for the bandwidth played and how that impacts the IMD (intermodulated distortion) especially when playing near Fs (i.e.; a midwoofer or subwoofer). Then install constraints are a factor (stealth vs. not, for one). 

Sometimes the right speaker for the install simply costs more even though it's performance isn't significantly better, it may literally 'fit' the bill better which gets one closer to the goal they have. 


Lots of variables. Too many to simply attach random percentages or come up with a one-fits-all graph.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

ErinH said:


> I don't know if it's been mentioned but there's absolutely the psychoacoustic effect of 'pride of ownership'. If someone pays more for a product they feel is worth it and that helps improve their listening experience, it's not my place to tell them they're wrong. Helping them understand alternatives and rationalize why item A may be better than item B even though it costs less is fine. In some ways, it's also akin to the DIY mentality. I've seen, and have been part of, people spending countless amounts of money on an install they did themselves when a shop could have done a better job and saved them money in the long run. The reason for the DIY method being acceptable is "because I did it myself". That's pride of ownership/work. Even though it still cost more in the long run.
> 
> Additionally, sometimes paying "up" for a certain product because it helps you save in other areas is perfectly reasonable. I'm a fan of buying a good speaker with near-flat on-axis response and off-axis response that mimics the on-axis (outside of beaming, as it falls in amplitude). There are a lot of "DIY" speakers that do this and a lot that don't. Some cost a lot. Some cost very little. Then you have to account for the bandwidth played and how that impacts the IMD (intermodulated distortion) especially when playing near Fs (i.e.; a midwoofer or subwoofer). Then install constraints are a factor (stealth vs. not, for one).
> 
> ...


Yeah and after the new and cool stage is over they realize they are not as amazing as they thought and look for something else. 
You see people swapping out expensive gear for expensive gear more then you see it the other way around.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Ha. I'm going cheaper this time. Much cheaper.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah and after the new and cool stage is over they realize they are not as amazing as they thought and look for something else.
> 
> You see people swapping out expensive gear for expensive gear more then you see it the other way around.




Don't really agree - a good product is a good product be it reliability or backup service or performance...

Sometimes guys buy cheap products and it sounds decent (considering the price) and yet it gives loads of issues like noise works some days and doesn't work other days and when you try to service it you find the importer is a guy who has a day job doing something completely different to car audio and he has a "friend" who can repair it...

Sometimes it's just better to pay the higher price for peace of mind and know that your dealing with a proper company with technical or servicing... 

A lot of guys will say they bought a cheap product sounded ok for about 6 months and then gave issues after issues and nobody is interested in resolving it and you realize that the warranty doesn't mean jack...

You end up selling for nothing and just buying a reputable product at 5 times the price - long story short you wasted time and energy and your eventual setup just cost you a lot more than you bargained for...

Buy right first time and happy days for years to come... doesn't always come at bottom dollar..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

And you swap amps and speakers how often?


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

DC/Hertz said:


> And you swap amps and speakers how often?




Me personally no - but I have spoken to friends who have endless issues with there stuff 


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

One thing to keep in mind, hopping not be disliked for saying this. Yes I agree that some spend their money, they feel better and justify it and like it was mentioned, simply will deny a lower cost performer can be better.

A car owner that spent $10,000 in a custom install with hardware, will never admit that a $3000 system can be better, after listening to it. Then people or shops may tune their music for their taste, and the non competing systems owners will think they have, if not the best system at least one that is better than *92.45% *  of the cars on the road, and can care less, once they are happy.

Also I got a feeling that the car audio industry, vendors etc, may punish or penalize car audio shops for pushing or selling driver's not made for cars, there may be certain agreements and terms between the manufacturers or distributors and the corner car pro reputable shop

Shops want to keep their costs low, only they know how low their cost is, and keep that relationship with the car audio companies.

Then, here comes the other issue, if car shops use a non car audio product, they may get in more trouble with the end user. It's way easier for me to say or sell a speaker made for cars, than selling a customer a scanpeak unknown driver to the end user, besides finding more negative things to say about non car drivers, and shops make more money selling car drivers too, same thing goes for deadening material etc. Less liabilities and issues and more money for the car shops while also more support and better warranties. A car shop may never offer Knu KOL CLD for example, because they may not get it cheap enough or even a wholesale price to have extra profits and margins.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Alrojoca said:


> One thing to keep in mind, hopping not be disliked for saying this. Yes I agree that some spend their money, they feel better and justify it and like it was mentioned, simply will deny a lower cost performer can be better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The problem with car audio is that people tune to there tastes which may not be to your liking

Just yesterday I had a chat with a guy who has PHD in his car and his big mate had the Kit 7 in his and he was saying to me who has a Kit 7 that the Kit 7 is dull and lifeless and boring!

My opinion is that the kit 7 is completely neutral and accurate - so here we have 3 setups that have different price points and yet we have different opinions on the same setup

I found his PHDs lifeless and boring and I swear I can hear driver distortion in both his cars... 

So who is right? Are the kit 7's lifeless and boring and dull? 

Car audio is so variable you can't just stick it on a dyno and say there it does 100hp on the rears 

People's ears are tuned to there own setup - and there is blind loyalty which I can never understand... especially when searching for the Unicorn as some do. 

Personally Utopia and PHD don't belong in the same sentence but it's amazing how opinions vary 

Boils down to how well you tune your system and what you like...

You can't say your $3000 system sounded better than a $10k system - because there are 2 opposite opinions... 

Guys don't spend enough time in different setups to get there ears used to something different to have an objective opinion imho....

I only start to understand a different setup after about 30-45mins most of us only have 5-10mins in a foreign setup...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Sooooo..... I'm starting to wonder why the same preconceived notion of inexpensive gear equals crap that won't last and wastes money always comes up? I think there's enough evidence on the boards alone to dispel that even if the code word "sometimes" is thrown in. I have not seen enough actual evidence to support that being the general consensus simply because most overlook such products to begin with. 

That's not to say it doesn't exist, but labeling with broad strokes based on brands or price is well..... Also, let's not exclude that we've witnessed expensive products go belly up with ****ty customer service as well. There's a big difference in what would be considered disposable vs a real loss.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bayboy said:


> Sooooo..... I'm starting to wonder why the same preconceived notion of inexpensive gear equals crap that won't last and wastes money always comes up? I think there's enough evidence on the boards alone to dispel that even if the code word "sometimes" is thrown in. I have not seen enough actual evidence to support that being the general consensus simply because most overlook such products to begin with.
> 
> That's not to say it doesn't exist, but labeling with broad strokes based on brands or price is well..... Also, let's not exclude that we've witnessed expensive products go belly up with ****ty customer service as well. There's a big difference in what would be considered disposable vs a real loss.



I really think guys must buy what they want - if they want cheap there is plenty to choose from same with expensive 

Sometimes a crappy headphone set does it... so be it. 


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Crappy? Lol either you're missing the point, or you're just that biased. This is why such threads rarely exist, but I digress


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Crappy? Lol either you're missing the point, or you're just that biased. This is why such threads rarely exist, but I digress


Dude... it is Elektra. What do you expect?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Dude... it is Elektra. What do you expect?


 yeah bro, you're right.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

More than anything I think it is marketing since raw drivers, from Dayton, scanpeak and some others, measure and perform well, and they are not marketed or known as car drivers, installation becomes difficult or complex specially for tweeters etc, meaning extra skills are needed to mount them.


I did not mean to get off topic, car audio branded versus non car audio components, my point is the average consumer and not so much the DIY guy would go with what's known and marketed car branded products. 

It's more like most consumers, buy components and spend more, and don't know what a DSP can do, or how it can improve the SQ. People with money, comes to a shop, and buys whatever the sales rep recommends, they will not plan to compete, simply just enjoy it and maybe brag they spent $10k-15k and some will spend more simply because they want to, they can and someone will install it and sell it to them, it's a free market and unless one of those consumers reads topics or threads in forums for example, they would not know these Dayton/scans offer performance and value. 

Nothing to do with the challenge and the 40k system, the 40k system is the whole picture and the speakers alone probably do not even add to 1/4 of the total system value.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

There's marketing, then there's actual research & testing on a consumer basis. The latter is what lacks which has been brought up earlier. Until then, it's all bias. There's a few sources we can grab data from (Medley's Musing's driver testing, Big D Whiz's amp dynos, Hanatsu, Vance Dickason, etc), but even their resources are reasonably limited though very much appreciated. They simply don't have the time or money to test everything. 

However, let's say in the case of Hanatsu's testing of the Vifa TC9 showing how viable of a driver it is, yet you see very limited use or suggesting of it. Why? Is it the 8 ohm factor? Not small enough for most common builds? Or can we honestly say many will turn their nose up at it in favor of something with a more prominent name or elite price tag? I'm sure we can dispel the impedance and size issue fairly quick, no? So surely to some, as inexpensive as it is, it must not be worth considering and I have no doubt that is just the exact thoughts many have though it isn't stated.


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## Mlarson67 (Jan 9, 2015)

Jazzi said:


> I'll give it a try. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a decent venn diagram creator? Jesus wept.
> 
> I don't even know if I'm using that right.


Love this graph!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Dude... it is Elektra. What do you expect?


At this point, I wouldnt be surprised for him to say he pays for expensive toilet paper because it tickles his bum hole a more elegant way. Let's also remember this is the same guy who doesn't use equipment because he thinks it degrades performance.

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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

It is reasons like posts like this for why I like you.

But aside from being very correct, was thinking we could ballpark it for newbs that want to understand investment vs. performance. I'm trying to flesh out the "nobody cares" part of your diagram, because I think people would care if they truly understood. Not ALL people, but enough to be worth it.



Jazzi said:


> I'll give it a try. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a decent venn diagram creator? Jesus wept.
> 
> I don't even know if I'm using that right.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Excellent points.

I was speaking to the DIY part of DIYMA though, not a shop's perspective. I won't buy a product if the only place to buy it is a shop. I'm not that person. Nothing against shops, but I'm just a diy till I die person. Its why I joined the site, why I listened to smart guys on here and why I'm better at this hobby for it. 

I think there's room for ballparking realistic price points relative to performance. Not sure if it is something I can take on right now, but maybe a few polls and then a results thread that can be referenced at-will would suffice. Basically when someone asks, "how much can I expect a 2-way + sub setup to run to get acceptable performance"



Alrojoca said:


> One thing to keep in mind, hopping not be disliked for saying this. Yes I agree that some spend their money, they feel better and justify it and like it was mentioned, simply will deny a lower cost performer can be better.
> 
> A car owner that spent $10,000 in a custom install with hardware, will never admit that a $3000 system can be better, after listening to it. Then people or shops may tune their music for their taste, and the non competing systems owners will think they have, if not the best system at least one that is better than *92.45% *  of the cars on the road, and can care less, once they are happy.
> 
> ...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> It is reasons like posts like this for why I like you.
> 
> But aside from being very correct, was thinking we could ballpark it for newbs that want to understand investment vs. performance. I'm trying to flesh out the "nobody cares" part of your diagram, because I think people would care if they truly understood. Not ALL people, but enough to be worth it.


To me "nobody cares" is gear that's inexpensive and great, but the masses don't know what it is and probably doesn't want to know what it is because it doesn't say Kicker, JL, etc on it. It's what sets the thrifty researchers apart from the masses waving their money around willy nilly.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

fourthmeal said:


> It is reasons like posts like this for why I like you.
> 
> But aside from being very correct, was thinking we could ballpark it for newbs that want to understand investment vs. performance. I'm trying to flesh out the "nobody cares" part of your diagram, because I think people would care if they truly understood. Not ALL people, but enough to be worth it.


Where DIYMA used to live...









More and more, it feels like it is moving to here...


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bayboy said:


> There's marketing, then there's actual research & testing on a consumer basis. The latter is what lacks which has been brought up earlier. Until then, it's all bias. There's a few sources we can grab data from (Medley's Musing's driver testing, Big D Whiz's amp dynos, Hanatsu, Vance Dickason, etc), but even their resources are reasonably limited though very much appreciated. They simply don't have the time or money to test everything.
> 
> However, let's say in the case of Hanatsu's testing of the Vifa TC9 showing how viable of a driver it is, yet you see very limited use or suggesting of it. Why? Is it the 8 ohm factor? Not small enough for most common builds? Or can we honestly say many will turn their nose up at it in favor of something with a more prominent name or elite price tag? I'm sure we can dispel the impedance and size issue fairly quick, no? So surely to some, as inexpensive as it is, it must not be worth considering and I have no doubt that is just the exact thoughts many have though it isn't stated.




Or maybe not enough people use it? So they don't get to hear it?




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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

He he , I don't care either. It's a free market!
Shops, big box stores, manufacturers can sell, promote and market any product and use the same language or marketing names of systems designs or technologies they want or were trained to use to sell to the consumer

As long as it works, I also may choose a cheaper value driver based on Dyma reviews, good tests, etc, even when I admit I could not fully evaluate a test or fully analyze specs to select a sub for IB for example. Some of the Dayton scan drivers, offer accurate specs, and perform well, while some lower priced car audio drivers, not always perform like the specs they supply. 


Again, I do not want to be the one making judgements, but some guys that compete are sponsored and get support. And opinions or lack of them, may be biased. No matter what, It's great for business, great for the hobby, the sport or activity. 


The question suggestion I have, for you Mike will social media help to get the components or amps needed assuming the rules of this match allows it, and go for it to get a better selection of components, then you can post a thread or page on FB with your updates on upgrades or steps to finalize the install, maybe some local help from local shops, if you really want it, you may not be alone, the more help support, sponsoring or funds you get the better chance you have to win and probably won't need to spend much of your money.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Elektra said:


> Or maybe not enough people use it? So they don't get to hear it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hearing before buying holds very little weight in this hobby as can be seen by a lot of threads in this forum.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bayboy said:


> Hearing before buying holds very little weight in this hobby as can be seen by a lot of threads in this forum.




Shucks i hope you don't buy a car based on reviews and dyno results without driving it? or marry a woman based on her Tinder profile review without dating her... 

Every piece of audio equipment has a sonic signature of some sort - I prefer to audition my equipment before outlaying my hard earned $$$'s

If that's all the same to you... 






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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Now I see why you have such a reputation on here. That point couldn't have been more ridiculous! Just where in the hell is someone able to audition gear installed & tuned in their own vehicle without buying?! 

"Sonic signature"? Those who chase anything of the sort outside of items purposely intended to introduce even order harmonics. ... welp. Even then it's very subjective.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

I know this isn't inline with the conversation about speakers and amps competition level systems... but for me, diminishing returns in audio begins with the DSP and tuning. 

Money and time is relative to all of us, but if i had to do a system all over again... $40 and about 3 minutes of time, a JBL MS-2 autotuning DSP can turn some average stock system's into something that sounds really good. That thing should have been step one for me. I know it's not really convenient to use, or even reliable, but just as far as SQ is concerned, you get a whole lot for a very little. I have to spend a lot more time and money to bring it to the next level. That's got to be at least a basic point of diminishing returns.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

1fishman said:


> I know this isn't inline with the conversation about speakers and amps competition level systems... but for me, diminishing returns in audio begins with the DSP and tuning.
> 
> Money and time is relative to all of us, but if i had to do a system all over again... $40 and about 3 minutes of time, a JBL MS-2 autotuning DSP can turn some average stock system's into something that sounds really good. That thing should have been step one for me. I know it's not really convenient to use, or even reliable, but just as far as SQ is concerned, you get a whole lot for a very little. I have to spend a lot more time and money to bring it to the next level. That's got to be at least a basic point of diminishing returns.


Your point is very valid and the premise of being able to use less expensive gear. I won't say it will equal or best something multiple times its price, but if you're not accounting for the acoustics of the car & seating position in the first place then whatever you use probably will be hindered anyway.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

In home audio auditioning speakers is important. In car audio not so much. This is where home audio guys who are too stubborn to have an open mind have so many issues. And say you find someone with the speakers you're interested and buying. What if that person just threw them in half ass and can't tune to save their life? You get your listen and decide they suck. What good was "listening" to said speakers?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

On top of what I just posted, a well designed speaker doesn't have to cost hundreds of dollars. You don't have to spend thousands on an amp to get the job done nicely. And you sure as hell don't have to waste money on esoteric cables for car audio use, or home use.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> The problem with car audio is that people tune to there tastes which may not be to your liking
> 
> 
> I only start to understand a different setup after about 30-45mins most of us only have 5-10mins in a foreign setup...
> ...


Right, is hearing what is on the recording. One won't get it right if one can't hear the difference between right and wrong. Right is not subjective but yes,. Most people settle for whatever they have once they get tired of tuning. Once one can hear the difference between right and wrong, 5 min is plenty of time to evaluate how good the sound is. I don't think the judges spend more than 5-10 min per car.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

We're back to the same problem, that due to the nature of a car install, the demo of the product on a wall is about 5% relevant (I used a percentage out of nowhere!)

But since a vehicle's interior can change the response by many factors over the "original" anechoic speaker output, it makes sense to put this % at a very low number. Add to this DSP and other systems in the chain that actually make a difference, and you end up with speaker sales being largely irrelevant, if demo'd.

I like working with raw speakers, from good companies. I used reviews from folks that actually measured the response (CSD/waterfall, distortion, t/s, etc) like Zaphaudio.com has in the past, and you know what? If the speaker measures well with that, I am usually very happy with it in a vehicle. That's just the truth. The FR89EX, measures amazingly within a response range it is made for. It has high xmax for the little guy that it is, and can really do well for itself anywhere from 200hz on up, to a point where the metal cone's breakup pattern starts showing up around 5kish, but even then its not that bad. Point is, that speaker was bought without hearing it, and it wasn't a crap-shoot. Based on specs, I installed it in a pod-like enclosure, tiny but appropriate for the t/s specs and I was sure to chamfer the mount points to let the speaker breathe, per Zaph's recommendations. That speaker, when in those little pod enclosures, could seriously jam, and it sounded amazing doing it. So, does it beat a Z-series whatever or Sinfoni give-my-left-nut to buy product? I don't know, but distortion was below 1% even at high volume, response was very flat (for a vehicle installation), little to no artifacting in the sound from the speaker itself, going by near-field measurements. It also cost $36 a piece.

If you can hear distortion below 1% at normal to elevated listening volumes, I want your ears dipped in gold.





Elektra said:


> Shucks i hope you don't buy a car based on reviews and dyno results without driving it? or marry a woman based on her Tinder profile review without dating her...
> 
> Every piece of audio equipment has a sonic signature of some sort - I prefer to audition my equipment before outlaying my hard earned $$$'s
> 
> ...


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Every piece of audio equipment has a sonic signature of some sort - I prefer to audition my equipment before outlaying my hard earned $$$'s
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A few years ago, those were my thoughts. Maybe in the low range car branded price sets it may still be the case.

It is more about specs, graphs, and validating the published numbers, once tuned properly, getting acceptable output, and sets with above certain car high price range speakers, it is more about good or bad, bright or laid back.
In a car, with DSP or active bandpassing, the signature sound does not really hold ground in my opinion.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Alrojoca said:


> A few years ago, those were my thoughts. Maybe in the low range car branded price sets it may still be the case.
> 
> It is more about specs, graphs, and validating the published numbers, once tuned properly, getting acceptable output, and sets with above certain car high price range speakers, it is more about good or bad, bright or laid back.
> In a car, with DSP or active bandpassing, the signature sound does not really hold ground in my opinion.


Exactly. At that point we're talking non-linear distortion. We don't want that. So if a speaker (of any price, including CHEAP) can produce for me a low non-linear distortion figure within the passband, get the SPL I want through cone area and xmax, why can't it beat expensive setups? Because those expensive setups "sound" different? How? Are they adding distortion? The rest can be "fixed" in EQ.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Exactly. At that point we're talking non-linear distortion. We don't want that. So if a speaker (of any price, including CHEAP) can produce for me a low non-linear distortion figure within the passband, get the SPL I want through cone area and xmax, why can't it beat expensive setups? Because those expensive setups "sound" different? How? Are they adding distortion? The rest can be "fixed" in EQ.


No, no, no..... that is impossible unless there's a elite name & price tag attached to it.  Sadly, that train of thought dominates no matter how many times it is fought against. But there's no fight to convince me. I've experienced it enough over the years although I've also dealt with naysayers. I've even offered a spare set of drivers for a few to try in their own to compare to their higher priced ones, but of course they turned it down. Meh... their loss. I'll keep my stash.


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## nhtunes (Jul 31, 2016)

I am sure I could have achieved similar results with cheaper equipment, I did enough research to know what I wanted and went with drivers that performed well, and had good comments and were designed for what I was going to use them for. If i dug more I am sure I could have gone cheaper but I wanted to install once, tune and be done, with no regrets. 

The only deficiencies I have are in some of the recordings. I listen mostly to live soundboard recordings, although a lot of studio stuff is poorly produced too.

I learned long ago, most people do not care about my "great sounding" music, in my car or in my house. If they knew how much I spent they would think I was a fool (not even close to what is called top end here) . Maybe I am, but at least I am a happy fool.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bayboy said:


> No, no, no..... that is impossible unless there's a elite name & price tag attached to it.  Sadly, that train of thought dominates no matter how many times it is fought against. But there's no fight to convince me. I've experienced it enough over the years although I've also dealt with naysayers. I've even offered a spare set of drivers for a few to try in their own to compare to their higher priced ones, but of course they turned it down. Meh... their loss. I'll keep my stash.




You make it sound as if anything is over a certain price is just snake oil...

I can see why no manufacturer ever gets involved in these threads as you would question there years of development and millions of $$'s spent because you are of the opinion that it's all rubbish

I agree that some companies charge the earth for something they shouldn't .... they don't last long

Also you have to also look at it in simple economics as well - ZR Speakers charge a fortune for there drivers so does MP and Focal (Ultima) but they don't sell millions of sets a year as say Scanspeak or Vifa and the likes so the price will reflect that in both sets 

I mean if a driver is handmade and assembled by a specialist that costs the company a lot of money compared to a mass produced driver that is basically assembly line orientated and labor is dirt cheap and the driver doesn't have to be meticulously handled and tested in every turn obviously the price will be different 

If Brax and the likes had to drop there price - they would have to drop there quality and standardize there driver material and probably farm all there production to the Far East. So no more specially designed material for cones no more Beryllium domes - no research and development into anything new for longer periods...

Fact of the matter as much as you can scoff at higher priced gear - understand that the companies selling them are not some production plant in China just pumping them out 1000 a day - when Trump bans Chinese imports or levies a huge tax on them (and we know if he wants to spend billions on a wall and he has already banned travel for some countries the next thing will be to reopen manufacturing in the US and if he can't compete with China he will just make it harder for China to operate in the US) your $20 driver will end up being a $60 driver because of either taxes or production moved to the US 








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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

If Bose can sell at the price they do with a plastic box and $3 dollar driver....it makes you think twice about anything over a few hundred bucks


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Anyone willing to seriously discus this subject would have to agree that a certain % of the price being charged for elite or boutique level car audio gear, is simply for the name on the badge. That's where the subjectivity of "how much is a brand name worth?" comes into play. 
Perhaps some people buy into the idea that having a certain brand in your vehicle inherently guarantees the highest quality. I maintain that there is always a certain amount of ego gratification involved in "presenting" the image of someone who not only has the money to purchase such components but, by doing so tries to claim for himself the intellectual high-ground. He would have you believe that his knowledge of audio is so much superior simply because he chose the highest priced components he could find. In other words, the Emperor has no clothes or for a more modern take...a fool and his money are soon parted.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> You make it sound as if anything is over a certain price is just snake oil...
> 
> I can see why no manufacturer ever gets involved in these threads as you would question there years of development and millions of $$'s spent because you are of the opinion that it's all rubbish
> 
> ...


I find it funny that you think you know what your talking about. 

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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I find it odd that no matter how much Elektra throws a rebuttal to my comments, he seems to keep purposely ignoring the replies sharing my sentiments. 

But the point is Elektra, at some point, yes it becomes a bit of snake oil. Isn't that the whole premise of this site??? Or are you here to be one of those in it for the "ego gratification" that PPI_GUY described to a T? 

Now I'm not claiming everything that is high priced is trying to pull the wool over your wallet, but how is that not hypocrisy for another to say everything inexpensive can't possibly compare, much less be worth using or even considering? Heck, I know for a fact that one particular brand being boasted about on here was installed by a very experienced friend who later was highly disappointed by its performance. He also confirmed its lackluster performance in power handling with someone of a higher standing in the community. The price that the particular part goes for, there's no way I'd pay that when I know for sure that a much less costly product not only is capable of meeting, but exceeding the capabilities of such. At that point, if you don't object to the price to performance..... well I guess the argument of being a mere status symbol becomes even more valid.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Changed my mind.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

PPI_GUY said:


> In other words, the Emperor has no clothes.......


Sounds Familiar .


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bayboy said:


> I find it odd that no matter how much Elektra throws a rebuttal to my comments, he seems to keep purposely ignoring the replies sharing my sentiments.
> 
> But the point is Elektra, at some point, yes it becomes a bit of snake oil. Isn't that the whole premise of this site??? Or are you here to be one of those in it for the "ego gratification" that PPI_GUY described to a T?
> 
> Now I'm not claiming everything that is high priced is trying to pull the wool over your wallet, but how is that not hypocrisy for another to say everything inexpensive can't possibly compare, much less be worth using or even considering? Heck, I know for a fact that one particular brand being boasted about on here was installed by a very experienced friend who later was highly disappointed by its performance. He also confirmed its lackluster performance in power handling with someone of a higher standing in the community. The price that the particular part goes for, there's no way I'd pay that when I know for sure that a much less costly product not only is capable of meeting, but exceeding the capabilities of such. At that point, if you don't object to the price to performance..... well I guess the argument of being a mere status symbol becomes even more valid.




Look... I am not going to argue with anyone here... 

It's just a friendly debate - at least from my side it is...

I guess where I am the choices are not as wide like your side and I can see the level of tuners your side far exceeds anything I have seen here...

We very "3rd world" in audio here I mean there are only a few cars that have something like Utopias in them - and I am the only one who has Brax Matrix amps and one of only 2 that have Thesis amps 

That being said that's nothing special your side - lots of guys have this and more yourside...

Guys are winning IASCA comps with VOCE gear... I don't really like the crowd that attends these comps personally so I don't enter anymore..

The stuff I have is not for status or bragging rights - hardly anyone even knows I have this equipment in the first place...

I like to keep it that way too...

I'll be the first to admit that I have some catching up to do when it comes to identifying what's good and what's not by reading graphs etc.. a year ago I would never have even blinked at that aspect...

But I do play around with my own setup and able to try different setups and come up with my own conclusion based on ear appraisal 

I'll bite on the speaker aspect in terms of studying graphs etc... Erin has a few tested drivers great! But he hasn't tested everything out there so we can rely on what the manufacturer gives us? Like Scanspeak has there technical graphs and parameters on there website to look at...

Is that good enough?

What part of the graph describes the way it sounds and what sort of clarity etc it should have - let's study a 10F which my brother uses - it's very good and has a live sound to it and it's almost holographic in a way - if that's what you like how do you identify this trait by just looking at the graph?

Is this possible? 

I mean a demo car is tainted by the ability of the tuner and if the tuner isn't that great then the car won't sound that great either so we cant trust what we hear in a demo car...

Let's just get one thing clear - I am not the following:

1) Rich
2) Looking for bragging rights

I am however looking for the best setup I can possibly afford and I want the kind of car that meets my expectations in audio - I am however willing to listen but I do have a few theories that may take a while for me to dispel over a period of time - that's for me to deal with...

I am interested in learning how a graph should read what's good and what's not with some explanation to satisfy the mind...

Welcome to DIY... 


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

And a friendly debate it shall be if the snide remarks are left out while trying to prove your point. No problem. 

As far as reading graphs are concerned, they are very important. Hints at character? Not really, but validity of consideration? Totally. 

Here's a couple of basic graphs given by Zaph. You're welcome to compare these to whatever driver of your liking in the 6.5" range. 






















Once you find something of comparison, I will give more info.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> ...........
> 
> We very "3rd world" in audio here I mean there are only a few cars that have something like Utopias in them - and I am the only one who has Brax Matrix amps and one of only 2.....
> 
> ...


And yet we get to hear about your utopias and brax in every second post you make. Just saying ;-)


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Look up Floyd Toole in YouTube. He explains a lot about speakers and how to get the sound you want.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> And yet we get to hear about your utopias and brax in every second post you make. Just saying ;-)




And? 

Is there something wrong with Brax and Utopias? 

What's your point? 




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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Elektra said:


> What's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Isn't it obvious? Go back and read your edited post I quoted.......


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Isn't it obvious? Go back and read your edited post I quoted.......




Arun... really if we discussing amps must I omit the Brax and if we discussing speakers must I omit Utopia? 

I don't understand what's your point here...

But let's leave it as it's going nowhere... 

I am pretty proud of what I have and spend a lot getting it...

Just because I mentioned it a few times in relevant threads a few too many times for your liking - well I am sorry! 


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Elektra said:


> You make it sound as if anything is over a certain price is just snake oil...
> 
> I can see why no manufacturer ever gets involved in these threads as you would question there years of development and millions of $$'s spent because you are of the opinion that it's all rubbish
> 
> ...














benny z said:


> Changed my mind.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Welp... guess this thread has been killed to death already!


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Guys are also winning competitions with JL Audio, Zapco and even PPI Phantom amps. Which tells me there are many ways to succeed that don't all involve buying elite level equipment. 

To claim that the quality and performance of a product parallels the price point is just buying into the marketing nonsense in my opinion. In this very thread there are examples of drivers that perform well beyond their price point, some even out perform so-called 'audiophile' components. 
There is at least some percentage of marketing BS in every consumer product category, from cars to potato slicers. The key is to question the hype and resist the urge to drink the koolaid.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

PPI_GUY said:


> The key is to question the hype and resist the urge to drink the koolaid.


Sig worthy.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

So I'm done installing the cheap 8" woofers in the doors after cutting & paint sealing new wooden baffles. Pulled the Kaxbltwt tweets from the stock locations & replaced them with a set of SB65WBAC25-4. Used a LR xover point of 500hz @ -24db between the set and threw in the RTA with the usual uncorrelated & correlated pink noise tracks. It didn't take a whole lot of DSP work that seemed out of the ordinary, but I can honestly & surprisingly say I don't see the Satori's mids & Kax tweets going back in.

Midbass is on another level now. Even only crossed at 80hz, it's deeper & effortless. Midrange & upper detail from the combo is a tad under the Satori & Kax combo, but not enough to the point you're missing out on something. A set of small ND20FA-6 tweeters for the sails are still in the plans. Bass guitar, & drums are firmly planted on the dash now. I'm shocked & impressed though it would be hard to convince anyone what's in the doors. 

Titan 8" Treated Paper Cone Foam Surround Woofer 4 Ohm


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> So I'm done installing the cheap 8" woofers in the doors after cutting & paint sealing new wooden baffles. Pulled the Kaxbltwt tweets from the stock locations & replaced them with a set of SB65WBAC25-4. Used a LR xover point of 500hz @ -24db between the set and threw in the RTA with the usual uncorrelated & correlated pink noise tracks. It didn't take a whole lot of DSP work that seemed out of the ordinary, but I can honestly & surprisingly say I don't see the Satori's mids & Kax tweets going back in.
> 
> Midbass is on another level now. Even only crossed at 80hz, it's deeper & effortless. Midrange & upper detail from the combo is a tad under the Satori & Kax combo, but not enough to the point you're missing out on something. A set of small ND20FA-6 tweeters for the sails are still in the plans. Bass guitar, & drums are firmly planted on the dash now. I'm shocked & impressed though it would be hard to convince anyone what's in the doors.
> 
> Titan 8" Treated Paper Cone Foam Surround Woofer 4 Ohm


At that price, if the car is not garaged or you are living in a rainy area you can get a new set of those every year. Although you will have near zero resale value after a year


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Lol yeah, both sets are what I would call disposable. Damage one and simply buy another. The only downfall is that they're buyout drivers, so when stock is depleted, you're out of luck.

I specifically chose those 8" due to smaller overall diameter & shallow mounting depth compared to others of similar size. That, and the fact that they call for 1.8 cubic sealed with parameters suitable for a limited midbass. They're handling the MS-A1004 pretty good so far. I have taken them lower and they seem to do fine but it isn't needed with sub I'm running. I played them with the door panels off for a bit and they really didn't move much for the output.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Yes I noticed that, I'm sure it can be used in many vehicles that have a 6.5" hole opening with the right baffle.

Foam surround and paper cone, the reason they are cheap and may only last a couple or 3 years max exposed to the moisture and heat would be my guess.

Building a sealed enclosure for them will help to extend their life I'm sure. My door's have a huge map pocket, hard to know if it will make the volume or it will be better to just leave the door alone even if it has more internal volume than the recommended one.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Paper cones tend to survive longer than most think. Foam is really only in trouble during abuse, direct sunlight, or like you say.... years. Any driver can last pretty long if treated with care. Still, they weren't bought with the intentions of staying in there for the remainder. I simply wanted to see what it would be like to finally get more cone area in the doors along with ideal infinite baffle parameters for strictly midbass duty. 

Now that being said, I won't dare try to compare them to anything I haven't heard. I would not try to use them beyond what I have them doing now. I also would not try to use them without a decent dsp. They did need a little bit of EQ work although nothing crazy. I just wouldn't try them on limited units alone like an 80prs or something similar. EQ per channel and good active filtering ability can make a big difference.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> So I'm done installing the cheap 8" woofers in the doors after cutting & paint sealing new wooden baffles. Pulled the Kaxbltwt tweets from the stock locations & replaced them with a set of SB65WBAC25-4. Used a LR xover point of 500hz @ -24db between the set and threw in the RTA with the usual uncorrelated & correlated pink noise tracks. It didn't take a whole lot of DSP work that seemed out of the ordinary, but I can honestly & surprisingly say I don't see the Satori's mids & Kax tweets going back in.
> 
> Midbass is on another level now. Even only crossed at 80hz, it's deeper & effortless. Midrange & upper detail from the combo is a tad under the Satori & Kax combo, but not enough to the point you're missing out on something. A set of small ND20FA-6 tweeters for the sails are still in the plans. Bass guitar, & drums are firmly planted on the dash now. I'm shocked & impressed though it would be hard to convince anyone what's in the doors.
> 
> Titan 8" Treated Paper Cone Foam Surround Woofer 4 Ohm


Nice, those 2.5 SBs and ND20FA-6 get a lot of praise nice to find such a budget 8 to go with them.

I love my Satori's but for good midbass out of them, i think they need sealed pods, or maybe ported. In the door/IB i had mine crossed above 120hz


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

1fishman said:


> Nice, those 2.5 SBs and ND20FA-6 get a lot of praise nice to find such a budget 8 to go with them.
> 
> I love my Satori's but for good midbass out of them, i think they need sealed pods, or maybe ported. In the door/IB i had mine crossed above 120hz


I agree. There's midbass vs midrange in the midwoofer realm, and the MW16P lean more towards midrange. That's not to say I wouldn't recommend them though. Just make sure you're using a sub that can play up high with accuracy. 

I played back & forth with different tunes and found I could get away with a Bessel or Butterworth high pass xover at 100hz, but that was the limit. They had good enough snap & just deep enough to lead a small sub, which the HO 10" is no slouch with power behind it. But now I can relax the sub's upper response and release more of its inner beast. 

In the end I don't regret running the Satori. Damn good driver! Just was time to advance to the next step, and 3-way will not do them any justice.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

I'm going to chime in on this thread. I love good gear. nothing like a well built something. But then its like every other hobby. 

See, the thing for me that is the most important is RELIABILITY! WILL IT WORK 5 years, 10 years down the road? 

Now, I have had some pretty expensive things over my lifetime. A woman being one of them. And I can tell you, sometimes, the Juice is NOT worth the squeeze. 

Some of the most best built gear has been the Midrange Mid Price stuff. And still performs well still to this day. 

But when it comes to Audio? You can NEVER just change one thing. If you change speakers, you have to do so many other things to make them right again. 

And its HARD for a person to spend 5000 on a front end, and expect it to sound the same or last a lifetime. 

That's the thing. All these devices to wear out. And speakers, unlike amps are not really able to be Repaired without GREAT compromise. 

I have about 12 MD100 Dynaudio tweeters. ALL OF THEM need new Soft parts. New caps would NOT be a bad idea. But the ones there do still work. But they are showing their age Vs new Electrolytics. 

See, the thing is for me anyways? I like things that I can not feel to bad about upgrading or giving away later. 

I also LOVE a good Value. Not deal, VALUE. So if something is GOOD VALUE, then price be damned. 

Say for example if someone made a PRICE no OBJECT amplifier. If it still works 10 years later, AMAZING. Still sounds like it left the factory? Better? WONDERFUL! 

The thing about Car AUDIO GEAR is that you are putting it in one of the Harshest places. THE CAR. 

If it's not the environment, its the meth head. Seeing so many other people get their Hard worked just picked apart really hurt to see. So I kind of made it important to use good value stuff that sounds great when used right. 

Actually, one of the reasons why I kept a STOCK radio so long was so that I did not have to worry about the system walking off. 

So many great systems over the years ended up in the junkyard due to some theft, stolen car, Vandalism etc. 

That's why I stayed away from so many High end parts for my ride over the years. Really, I am not worried about people as much as I am worried about cops, the Government etc. 

So I keep things that I can Replace easy when needed. That's how I live life. 


If I had an ASSURANCE I bought something and it would be MINE forever till I die, then I would go all out. 

But a car? and a CAR AUDIO SYSTEM? A [email protected]#% California COP can make that whole dream go away IN A PMS rage. I know, it happned to me TWICE. And I was LUCKY to get my car back. The 3 cops however last time Made sure to leave a permant mark on my body as well. 

So until at least in the USA, a man has a RIGHT to own PROPERTY that the LAW RESPECTS.. Nope. Not going to throw down hard cash on something I can not protect or really own. 

Hence why cryptocurrency is such a threat to the government. They can't control it. 


So, when I see something of good value, I get it. But as far as diminishing returns? If I like it, its a return. END OF LINE.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Aslmx said:


> When I say raw driver, I'm thinking of stuff from parts express or madisound. Something that doesn't typically come in a component set and that I'm planning to run active instead of passive. Usually flute, Dayton, vifa. Things of that nature.


Raw? ...well, if I take a boxed Alpine 6x9 component set, remove the supplied crossovers (inductor and cap), and run that driver in an active system, would that be considered a raw driver?

I ran across this thread and got interested. Sorry to go digging up old threads


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## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

therapture said:


> Raw? ...well, if I take a boxed Alpine 6x9 component set, remove the supplied crossovers (inductor and cap), and run that driver in an active system, would that be considered a raw driver?
> 
> I ran across this thread and got interested. Sorry to go digging up old threads


I vote yes, but the problem is that you shelled out cash for tweeters and a crossover that you did not need. I think the point is to find bargain gems that can be used to beat that Alpine component set.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

therapture said:


> Raw? ...well, if I take a boxed Alpine 6x9 component set, remove the supplied crossovers (inductor and cap), and run that driver in an active system, would that be considered a raw driver?
> 
> I ran across this thread and got interested. Sorry to go digging up old threads



In the context of a 6x9 woofer, your options on a "raw driver" are quite limited. Picking something with the surface area of that in a raw driver means going to an ~8" (round) woofer, not always possible with the space available. Therefore, picking something that works like the Alpine, seems like a good place to start. For 6x9's I immediately gravitate to the Audiofrog GS690, not a cheap woofer but basically indestructible, and that matters quite a lot in a door-based install since the other side of the woofer is essentially exposed to the elements. I pulled my GS690s's from my Durango before trading it just recently, and the woofers looked essentially brand new, which pleases me. Can't say the same for my Image Dynamics X69 woofers, which developed rust in the coil area, ruining them. Some brands just aren't made to survive the condition.


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## Baby M3 (Jun 4, 2014)

Hello all,

I am not at all an audio guy in terms of technicality and experience. I am, however, someone who appreciates good music and audio equipment from an emotional perspective.

This is what I am currently running in my M3:

Denon black-faced DCT-1 deck 
Denon CD changer
Brax Matrix 3-way front speakers
Brax Matrix subwoofer
Brax Matrix 4-channel amps
Brax Multicontroller
Helix DSP Pro
Helix DIRECTOR remote
Custom installation by JT Audio

In the same car, I previously had a full Alpine setup (DVA-7996, ERA-G320, PDX amp, and SPX speakers) that cost substantially less and essentially delivered 98% of what my current system can do.

That said, I don't regret investing in the expensive audio equipment, which certainly played an important role helping my modified M3 win the Best of Show award at Bimmerfest 2018. But since I did not build my car with the intention of competing in car shows, other than fulfilling a promise I made to myself (when I was a poor college kid envying those who had brand new E36 M3s back then), I really did not have a good reason to pursue that minimal increase in SQ.

Anyway, my point is that there is raw truth to what this thread is about. Over the years, I've fully convinced myself that I don't really need expensive high-end car audio gears to please my ears. And even if my current setup were 10% better than my old one, the difference would've been easily been canceled by external factors such as engine noises. That's why if I had room for another E36, I would be just as happy putting my old Alpine gears in it.

Jon


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

Why didn't you like noico? Did it fail on you? It seemed to work ok for me having made it thru 1 hot Las Vegas summer, but the car never made it to summer #2. I will always wonder if it would have.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LexusLover said:


> Why didn't you like noico? Did it fail on you? It seemed to work ok for me having made it thru 1 hot Las Vegas summer, but the car never made it to summer #2. I will always wonder if it would have.


I've used it plenty. It just doesnt do a good job at stopping resonance. I've stopped using it completely for a while now and only use sds. In this case, it's cheap for a reason

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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

I've wondered just how good sds was. Glad to know you had good results with it. Noico just seemed weird and different in its feel and it's thickness. It did pass the tap test, but my favorite by far was second skins.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

LexusLover said:


> I've wondered just how good sds was. Glad to know you had good results with it. Noico just seemed weird and different in its feel and it's thickness. It did pass the tap test, but my favorite by far was second skins.


SDS might be the best I have ever used and I’ve used a few. You won’t be disappointed with SDS and with the CLD tiles you do not need a lot to get results.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

V8toilet said:


> LexusLover said:
> 
> 
> > I've wondered just how good sds was. Glad to know you had good results with it. Noico just seemed weird and different in its feel and it's thickness. It did pass the tap test, but my favorite by far was second skins.
> ...


I have used both in my current build. SDS has better CLD tiles than second skin. Their tiles smell and have thinner aluminum. The differences are probably marginal other than the smell. 2 months later and I still smell it time to time. Reminds me of salt for some reason.

Other than the tiles second skin has better products such as ultra luxury mlv. Shipping adds up, that's why I don't use SDS.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

fourthmeal said:


> In the context of a 6x9 woofer, your options on a "raw driver" are quite limited. Picking something with the surface area of that in a raw driver means going to an ~8" (round) woofer, not always possible with the space available. Therefore, picking something that works like the Alpine, seems like a good place to start.


The good news is that I am having great success with this Alpine. Running it bandpassed from 80-1200 24db LR and feeding them from my Alpine V9. They produce excellent midbass that is far surpassing what my old forum boner HAT Imagine 6.5's were capable of. Songs that used to used to break up the Imagine woofer can now be played loudly and the impact is felt as well as heard. I am learning I am a midbass junkie.


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