# SI TM2 vs GB60



## DC/Hertz

Since they are pretty much the hot topics right now I wonder how they would compare performance wise. Since they are on completely different ends of the price spectrum. 
Since the TMs are on amazon now I might have to try a set.


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## Victor_inox

Amazon? link please.


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## CSEmoses

Since they are both so well received i can only imagine that they both sound good. 
Since lots of people have reviewed both, aggregating their opinions would lead me to believe that they will compare similarly. 
Since the TM2 gets rave reviews in the mid-bass punch segment, i'd guess it excels in this regard.


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## DC/Hertz

Victor_inox said:


> Amazon? link please.


Here's the M25. I can't find the mid again. 
1" XBL^2 audiophile tweeter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0731J7MPX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_ZBftzbKJAW8DT


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## DC/Hertz

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0731KY7DS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_kDftzbFPJV9TC


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## drop1

Yeah that's a big jump in price. Haven't heard the SI's but I'm a fan of the gb's. 
I loved my previous Focal utopias. The gb' s definitely have more midbass. The upper mid on the utopias was a touch smoother and over all I'd say the utopias were slightly more defined. The gb's are very warm and rich with lots of tight punchy bass. At the cost of the SI's im tempted to grab a pair just for the sake of comparing.


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## Electrodynamic

Yes, both the TM65 mkII's and the M25's are being sold on Amazon now. We will be shipping batches of both products to Amazon's fulfillment centers to allow them to be available on Amazon Prime. But most importantly having those two products on Amazon substantially opens up the ordering possibilities instead of Paypal only.

The M25's are sold in pairs and the TM65 mkII's are sold individually.


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## Victor_inox

Electrodynamic said:


> Yes, both the TM65 mkII's and the M25's are being sold on Amazon now. We will be shipping batches of both products to Amazon's fulfillment centers to allow them to be available on Amazon Prime. But most importantly having those two products on Amazon substantially opens up the ordering possibilities instead of Paypal only.
> 
> The M25's are sold in pairs and the TM65 mkII's are sold individually.


 I posted your first amazon review. 
Hopefully they will not rip you off for their service.


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## Electrodynamic

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.







Victor_inox said:


> I posted your first amazon review.
> Hopefully they will not rip you off for their service.


Thanks Victor. Thankfully Amazon's contract is month-to-month so if anyone takes advantage of Amazon's policies and blows something up with intent and purpose we can stop selling on Amazon if need be. But so far everything is fine.


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## dgage

Electrodynamic said:


> The M25's are sold in pairs and the TM65 mkII's are sold individually.


I've seen enough reviews on Amazon to know that if this isn't clear, you will have problems. And I just looked at both products and what you just stated isn't included. Might even want to put a picture of a pair of tweeters to show that it is a pair. If you need me to make sure they have a completely white background again, send me an email with the picture.


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## miniSQ

dgage said:


> I've seen enough reviews on Amazon to know that if this isn't clear, you will have problems. And I just looked at both products and what you just stated isn't included. Might even want to put a picture of a pair of tweeters to show that it is a pair. If you need me to make sure they have a completely white background again, send me an email with the picture.


Agreed, it is very confusing as it is right now. I would expect 1 tweeter, and probably not purchase based on them being $140 each.

Also without the links provided here, i would never have found them on amazon. You should list the name Stereo Integrity and SI in the item name.

searching for Stereo Integrity or even XBL^2 does not get you to your product.


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## nineball76

miniSQ said:


> Agreed, it is very confusing as it is right now. I would expect 1 tweeter, and probably not purchase based on them being $140 each.
> 
> Also without the links provided here, i would never have found them on amazon. You should list the name Stereo Integrity and SI in the item name.
> 
> searching for Stereo Integrity or even XBL^2 does not get you to your product.


I typed "stereo integrity tm65" and stereo integrity m25" and both products came right up. Didn't see any issue. 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz

He must have fixed it last night. The M25 was working but not the TM


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## PorkCereal

They have only been on Amazon for a few days as well. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz

So any ideas about a head to head? 
Acting as mid bass/mid range in a 2 way up to 2500ish


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## DC/Hertz

FS is close. One way and sensitivity is the same. 
TM has a bit higher RMS but I'd guess the GB could do the same. 
The TM does have a bit more SD. 
BL is close. 
QTS, QMS, and QES are different. And of course Audiofrog is loaded with install parts if needed 
TM65 mkII Woofer | Stereo Integrity
GB60 6″ (165MM) AUDIOPHILE GRADE AUTOMOTIVE LOUDSPEAKER » Audiofrog » designed in California for audiophiles everywhere


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## Dan750iL

If the GBs weren't so expensive this would be a fun experiment to run.


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## quickaudi07

Both drivers are great I had GB60 which was just sold and got it replaced with SI. Both could handle power but SI could get lower deeper and it could take a real hard beating without a problem. GB is more of a flat line, they are clean and sound great doing so where SI does the same while keeps the bass and mid line in control. I played some track that I'm very aware and SI screamed with details not saying GB didn't but I always felt like there is something missing... Conclusion I would go with both product anyway... Like them both... No sides have been taken...  At the end of the day is all about what you want out of a system.. and I think I almost reached my goal. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz

So for the drastic cost difference the SI wins easily?


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## SkizeR

waiting for my omnimic (which got rerouted around the god damn continental us) to come to objectively test both.. or maybe we can send some to Jazzi to put on the klippel.


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## DC/Hertz

I hope so. I'm really needing a new mid. Trying to make it one and done.


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## SkizeR

what im worried about when it comes to the SI is the obviously smoothed out frequency response (although nick claims otherwise, and im not buying it considering his past.. see below) that still shows breakup somewhat starting around 700, but really kicking in at around 1k, meanwhile the gb60 hides nothing with an *actual* 1/24th octave measurement and breakup doesnt start until 3.2khz. either way, id love to see both on the klippel to get some real xmax figures and off axis measurements out of them. not sure if the GB60's is accurate or not, but some of you may remember Nick of SI fudging the xmax specs of the first tm65. claimed 9mm although klippel only spec'd them at 5mm. im also curious as to why Nick doesnt include impedance graph. that could be pretty revealing. 

heres graphs of both..

TM65 mkii















GB60


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## DC/Hertz

If it's like he says that's extremely impressive.


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## seafish

I can run both the TM65mk1 and M65mk2 on a Dayton woofer tester if that will help.


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## DC/Hertz

That's would be great if you got the time


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## quickaudi07

DC/Hertz said:


> So for the drastic cost difference the SI wins easily?


I dont want to say this, but in my eyes and ears, yes.


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## nineball76

quickaudi07 said:


> I dont want to say this, but in my eyes and ears, yes.


So, diminished returns? You could send 3x as much but not see 3x the upgrade in sound? 

Sent from my LG-V20 using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox

Are they $150.00 for one speaker or a pair?


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## DC/Hertz

Per speaker
So $400 less then the GB


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## SkizeR

seafish said:


> I can run both the TM65mk1 and M65mk2 on a Dayton woofer tester if that will help.


That just does ts specs. Not the most useful but better than nothing 

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

DC/Hertz said:


> Per speaker
> So $400 less then the GB


 This will be correct. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

anyone willing to offer up jazzi a tm65v2? i have some gb60's i can send in.


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## DC/Hertz

This would be the ultimate competition. 
Two top mids. Two totally different price brackets. 
Nick did a good thing going to Amazon.


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## I800C0LLECT

I have GB60's available too. *Shrug*


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## DC/Hertz

I800C0LLECT said:


> I have GB60's available too. *Shrug*


Why are you letting them go? Pm if you don't want to air it out.


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## I800C0LLECT

Lol...I just bought an accord. No plans for install yet. Factory upgraded sound is actually half decent too


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## seafish

SkizeR said:


> anyone willing to offer up jazzi a tm65v2? i have some gb60's i can send in.


I am willing to send him a NIB mk2, but gonna need help on shipping it and getting back. Matter of fact, also willing to send him a mk1 for comparisons sake as well. IF he wants to test them that is.


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## SkizeR

Already purchased a tm65ii from Amazon. Of he cancels it on me I'll cover shipping for ya

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## seafish

SkizeR said:


> Already purchased a tm65ii from Amazon. Of he cancels it on me I'll cover shipping for ya
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


Sorry, please clarify what you are saying you want me to do.


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## DC/Hertz

This could turn into a blockbuster. 
My future vision. 
TM will win 80-400hz. After that they will be even to 2k with the TM having a small edge in output. After 2k the GB will take over till 3k. 
None of this is counting the GB's accessories.


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## truckguy

In the the test and results! I'm stilling rocking the TM1 for midbass duty.


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## Justin Zazzi

I just found this discussion and I would be thrilled to measure and compare the GB60 to the TM65 mkII, or anything else for that matter. It is true I have access to a Klippel machine and I plan to build a setup for doing off-axis measurements as well for an unrelated project.  This opportunity will last for another month until mid-August when I fly back home.

If this were to be done properly, it would be best to measure and test more than one sample of each model. Otherwise, whoever disagrees with the data could simply claim I had a "bad" copy of the woofer. But if the same data were to show up in two or three different copies, that would be substantial and harder to dismiss.

It seems like this idea is catching fire and I already have offers to loan me copies for testing, but only one of each model so far. I will say up front I am not in a position financially to pay for return shipping costs, so this will have to be paid for round-trip by the folks that are generous enough to lend me their gear, or you all can donate to each other to make it easier.

I'm open to just about anything, and I'm happy to help however I can in this test and in any other (such as the MLV decoupling test I will be doing also).


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## brumledb

Looks like this thread is catching more traction than Jazzi's original Klippel thread. I have a set of of Audiofrog GS690's and a set of Hybrid U69's that I would be willing to ship to Jazzi if anyone would like to chip in on shipping. I would only send one of each to cut down on shipping costs.


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## Electrodynamic

SkizeR said:


> what im worried about when it comes to the SI is the obviously smoothed out frequency response (although nick claims otherwise, and im not buying it considering his past.. see below) that still shows breakup somewhat starting around 700, but really kicking in at around 1k, meanwhile the gb60 hides nothing with an *actual* 1/24th octave measurement and breakup doesnt start until 3.2khz. either way, id love to see both on the klippel to get some real xmax figures and off axis measurements out of them. not sure if the GB60's is accurate or not, but some of you may remember Nick of SI fudging the xmax specs of the first tm65. claimed 9mm although klippel only spec'd them at 5mm. im also curious as to why Nick doesnt include impedance graph. that could be pretty revealing.


We rate our Xmax by 70% BL one-way. The 5mm you speak of on the first version TM65 was by Le variance, not by BL. We also stated multiple times that our FR on the TM65 mkII is near-field. But please purchase an Onimic and measure your TM65 mkII's near-field at 1/24'th per octave and publish the results.


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## quickaudi07

SkizeR said:


> what im worried about when it comes to the SI is the obviously smoothed out frequency response (although nick claims otherwise, and im not buying it considering his past.. see below) that still shows breakup somewhat starting around 700, but really kicking in at around 1k, meanwhile the gb60 hides nothing with an *actual* 1/24th octave measurement and breakup doesnt start until 3.2khz. either way, id love to see both on the klippel to get some real xmax figures and off axis measurements out of them. not sure if the GB60's is accurate or not, but some of you may remember Nick of SI fudging the xmax specs of the first tm65. claimed 9mm although klippel only spec'd them at 5mm. im also curious as to why Nick doesnt include impedance graph. that could be pretty revealing.
> 
> heres graphs of both..
> 
> TM65 mkii
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GB60


I have mine crossed from 60hz to 2300khz @24 
Than I ran them up too 3200 for some time and still am and have any problems or any imperfections in sound. 

Anyone that will get these SI mids please make sure your doors and door cards are solid. They get wild at high volume and you will get ton of vibration.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## sqnut

This should be fun.:snacks:


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## seafish

OK guys, I am going to make a suggestion--

FIRST, Jazzi would have to decide how MANY speakers (or pairs of speakers) he actually wants to, and has time to, test. Obviously, is someone is willing to loan the speaker set and pay shipping both ways, then that speaker set is already prioritized for testing. But for those of us who are willing to loan the speaker set but need help paying for shipping and return shipping, then perhaps someone TRUSTED were to use an existing PayPal account to take donations from ANY member to pay for shipping the equipment. I now it sounds somewhat complicated, and obviously it might just be better/easier for those members who both have the equipment and can afford shipping both ways are the ones who participate in Jazzi's testing, but just thought I'd throw it out there. 

Either way, the FIRST thing that needs to happen is for Jazzi to state just how MANY speakers he is able and willing to test.

FYI-- I recently sent interconnects to Locomotive Tech for testing and covered shipping there and he will cover the return shipping. Also, in the past, I have done the same for SkizeR's amp test and Captainobvious' HU test.


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## Electrodynamic

SkizeR said:


> Just hoping you dont cancel my order like your known for lol
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


You are correct. I have been known for that in that in the past, but no longer. Your order will ship out tomorrow. Thanks for your order.


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## Justin Zazzi

seafish said:


> OK guys, I am going to make a suggestion--
> 
> FIRST, Jazzi would have to decide how MANY speakers (or pairs of speakers) he actually wants to, and has time to, test. Obviously, is someone is willing to loan the speaker set and pay shipping both ways, then that speaker set is already prioritized for testing. But for those of us who are willing to loan the speaker set but need help paying for shipping and return shipping, then perhaps someone TRUSTED were to use an existing PayPal account to take donations from ANY member to pay for shipping the equipment. I now it sounds somewhat complicated, and obviously it might just be better/easier for those members who both have the equipment and can afford shipping both ways are the ones who participate in Jazzi's testing, but just thought I'd throw it out there.
> 
> Either way, the FIRST thing that needs to happen is for Jazzi to state just how MANY speakers he is able and willing to test.
> 
> FYI-- I recently sent interconnects to Locomotive Tech for testing and covered shipping there and he will cover the return shipping. Also, in the past, I have done the same for SkizeR's amp test and Captainobvious' HU test.


This seems really important to you, so I will try to answer.

I'm more than happy to test whatever folks trust to mail to me. I feel a good balance of being thorough and being efficient would be 2-3 copies of each model so if there are any questionable finds in the data, it could be more reliable. That said, I don't think I have the time to do a bunch of different models at the same time. I'm thinking maybe five models at the very most since it will take significant time to create test baffles for each and to run the long battery of tests I have in mind, plus allow extra time for this or that.

As for funding the shipping, I would normally be happy to help pay for some portion of the round-trip but I'm not in a position financially to do this. The idea of a trustee to accept donations and distribute seems good but it might be a little more complicated than needed. I assumed the community could figure it out without too much trouble.

I'm trying to be open to what the community wants, since you all are the customer afterall.

*One very strong requirement I have though*: all test speakers must arrive at my location by Wednesday August 26th at the absolute latest. I do not anticipate having any extra time beyond that for this project.


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## KillerBox

I would be willing to chip in on the shipping costs. 

I also have an extra set of Focal K2 Power 165 KRX3, if we want to test their midbasses but, in the 3 way set I think they are crossover around 500hz. So I don't know, if it will be a fair comparison?


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## DC/Hertz

I think I could chip in also. It won't be a lot. 
Nick you got the SI right? 
Did anyone say they had a GB to send? 
Post your round trip shipping cost


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## ManBearPig

I could pitch in an id xs65
If you guys are interested that is


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## dcfis

I'll pitch in also


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## SkizeR

DC/Hertz said:


> I think I could chip in also. It won't be a lot.
> Nick you got the SI right?
> Did anyone say they had a GB to send?
> Post your round trip shipping cost


I have gb60 and si on the way. Both bnib. 

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## DC/Hertz

SkizeR said:


> I have gb60 and si on the way. Both bnib.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


Thank you. This is really helpful for me and I don't deserve it from you.


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## nineball76

DC/Hertz said:


> Thank you. This is really helpful for me and I don't deserve it from you.


I'll probably toss in a pair of tm65 mki for testing if you'd be interested in seeing that. I'll cover shipping both ways, and send a pair so they can be tested against each other. I mean being able to run 2 or 8 ohm might open up some options. I haven't decided to use them or not, right now I'm putting one set in some bookshelves to see how they sound at least.


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## DC/Hertz

If it's as good as I think it's going to be after trusted opinions I think the wait was worth it. 
You can't have it all in one package, something will always have to give.


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## ErinH

cleanup, aisle 7!

Cleaned up all the OT talk. 

Justin, if you want a hand with the testing, hit me up. I'm looking forward to your results. Please document the test rig and capture the settings used. 
Edit: There's one set of values you input ... and I think it's Cmin and Blmin or something like that... basically determines how hard you push a driver in relation in order to get a resolution for your linear xmax values*. 
Then there's the values you set to determine overall distortion values (THD of 10% vs THD of 20%); which are the Bl(x), Cms(x)/Kms(x), Le(x) and Le(i) drivers. 
Also, your Gsmall value/amplifier used. IME, these are critical numbers. 

Klippel's site has TONS of literature on this stuff but a lot of it is still some trial and error. 

*As a word of caution, some drivers won't resolve until dang near death. That means you run the severe risk of killing a driver in order to get meaningful data. Especially in the initial "learning phase". I don't want to deter people from chipping in, but this is something you/they absolutely need to understand. I put a similar disclaimer up when I was testing... it might behoove you (Justin) to consider doing the same so in case something does happen the donators understand the risk. I don't want this to come off like "oh, I know more than you"... but the truth is I tested around 40-50 drivers when I had my own Klippel and I learned the hard way a few times and had to replace a couple drivers in that time. Just trying to pass some insight on to you for your benefit. 

And this is just the LSI stuff. Do they have the DIS or other 'modules' for FR/HD/IMD/MD or are you using other means for this? If you're using the Klippel, the FR/HD measurement stuff is a lot more straightforward. My favorite thing about it is you can set the voltage output which makes life easier than having to play test tones and using a DMM to get what you want. A lot more repeatable, too.  




Anyway, good luck and enjoy. I'm looking forward to seeing some good data and seeing your test rig. :lurk:


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## seafish

nineball76 said:


> I'll probably toss in a pair of tm65 mki for testing if you'd be interested in seeing that. I'll cover shipping both ways, and send a pair so they can be tested against each other. I mean being able to run 2 or 8 ohm might open up some options. I haven't decided to use them or not, right now I'm putting one set in some bookshelves to see how they sound at least.


Since I have two pairs of each and will be using them only for dedicated mid bass in one of two builds, I would LOVE to see a Klippel comparison of the mk1 and mk2 !!

Since I don't have to send my mk1 pair in if you are willing to send yours, I will be more then happy chip $10 on shipping if that helps make it happen!!!

Pm me you PayPal if and when you decide to ship them.


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## DC/Hertz

Please just don't over complicate it.


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## SkizeR

The mk1 was already klippeled. I don't see a point

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## Onyx1136

I've got a pair of SI MkII's that I can send to Jazzi for testing. I'll cover shipping both ways, and I'm only 2 hours away from him, so it should be quick and fairly cheap. I can ship them out tomorrow morning if I have an address.


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## seafish

SkizeR said:


> The mk1 was already klippeled. I don't see a point
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


....Link???


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## SkizeR

seafish said:


> ....Link???


Way back in its original release post.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## brumledb

seafish said:


> ....Link???


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/168106-tm65-klippel-results.html


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## nineball76

seafish said:


> Since I have two pairs of each and will be using them only for dedicated mid bass in one of two builds, I would LOVE to see a Klippel comparison of the mk1 and mk2 !!
> 
> Since I don't have to send my mk1 pair in if you are willing to send yours, I will be more then happy chip $10 on shipping if that helps make it happen!!!
> 
> Pm me you PayPal if and when you decide to ship them.


Apparently it's already been done and there's no need to do it again. $30 saved on shipping! It's alright I'm just trying to pitch in when I can, don't ever seem to have much to offer.


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## Justin Zazzi

ErinH said:


> cleanup, aisle 7!
> 
> Cleaned up all the OT talk.
> 
> Justin, if you want a hand with the testing, hit me up. I'm looking forward to your results. Please document the test rig and capture the settings used.
> Edit: There's one set of values you input ... and I think it's Cmin and Blmin or something like that... basically determines how hard you push a driver in relation in order to get a resolution for your linear xmax values*.
> Then there's the values you set to determine overall distortion values (THD of 10% vs THD of 20%); which are the Bl(x), Cms(x)/Kms(x), Le(x) and Le(i) drivers.
> Also, your Gsmall value/amplifier used. IME, these are critical numbers.
> 
> Klippel's site has TONS of literature on this stuff but a lot of it is still some trial and error.
> 
> *As a word of caution, some drivers won't resolve until dang near death. That means you run the severe risk of killing a driver in order to get meaningful data. Especially in the initial "learning phase". I don't want to deter people from chipping in, but this is something you/they absolutely need to understand. I put a similar disclaimer up when I was testing... it might behoove you (Justin) to consider doing the same so in case something does happen the donators understand the risk. I don't want this to come off like "oh, I know more than you"... but the truth is I tested around 40-50 drivers when I had my own Klippel and I learned the hard way a few times and had to replace a couple drivers in that time. Just trying to pass some insight on to you for your benefit.
> 
> And this is just the LSI stuff. Do they have the DIS or other 'modules' for FR/HD/IMD/MD or are you using other means for this? If you're using the Klippel, the FR/HD measurement stuff is a lot more straightforward. My favorite thing about it is you can set the voltage output which makes life easier than having to play test tones and using a DMM to get what you want. A lot more repeatable, too.
> 
> Anyway, good luck and enjoy. I'm looking forward to seeing some good data and seeing your test rig. :lurk:


I will certainly listen to what you have learned, no doubt about it. I have been going through the motions today and testing a speaker of my own design and sure enough, the limits for C and BL deviation were too lax and I smacked the voice coil against the backplate a few times before stopping it. This is why we make rough drafts and revisions, to find these things : )

So yes, please do send me a note with anything you found interesting or important. I've left the office for the day so I can't show a picture of the setup but it should be familiar to anyone who has used a Klippel rig before. Clamp the speaker horizontally, put a piece of tape on the dust cap and paint it white, aim the laser at the dot from the correct distance away, move the microphone into position, connect the amplifier leads and close the test chamber door. Setup the set in the software, press run, and then spend the next few hours trying to make sense of the mountain of data that is generated. Put the speaker in the power test room and do a "burn in" for the rest of the day, and do it all again tomorrow.

I do have the LSI module available as well as X10 and a few others. Is there something really specific most people would like to see? For the woofer I"m designing, I'm mostly interested in the small signal parameters (T/S numbers) and the large signal distortion products and what are causing them (BL strength and voice coil offset and compliance and inductance all vs displacement).

I plan to do anechoic frequency response and polar response with Joseph D'Apollito's methods from his fantastic book. Build a huge baffle, mount driver flush in the middle, make some acoustic and physical measurements, then window out all reflections and baffle edge diffraction. Make another very near-field measurement to capture low-frequency data. Stitch the far-field response and off-axis traces to the near-field data. It ends up looking beautiful.


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## SQLnovice

It seems like shipping is pretty much covered. I normally don't have any important info to contribute to this site because this is a new hobby for me. 
However, if any driver is damaged in the process, I'll contribute $50 to replacing or directly to the owner of the driver. I'll try and keep up with this thread, but if my donation is needed at a later date, please contact me. Subbed.


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## SkizeR

SQLnovice said:


> It seems like shipping is pretty much covered. I normally don't have any important info to contribute to this site because this is a new hobby for me.
> However, if any driver is damaged in the process, I'll contribute $50 to replacing or directly to the owner of the driver. I'll try and keep up with this thread, but if my donation is needed at a later date, please contact me. Subbed.


all 8 drivers i sent jazzi just got damaged in shipping. thats 50 per driver, right? ill pm you my paypal


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## DC/Hertz

SkizeR said:


> all 8 drivers i sent jazzi just got damaged in shipping. thats 50 per driver, right? ill pm you my paypal


What all did you send?


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## SkizeR

DC/Hertz said:


> What all did you send?


that was sarcasm. im sending 1 tm65ii and 1 gb60


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## DC/Hertz

I got that part. Thought you threw a few extra in the box. Like those scans.


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## SQLnovice

SkizeR said:


> all 8 drivers i sent jazzi just got damaged in shipping. thats 50 per driver, right? ill pm you my paypal


I'll send a check in the mail for that amount. lol. 
Per driver, I wish I was a baller like that. 
But, I can send you that amount to cover shipping. You've been very helpful whenever I PM you.


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## SkizeR

shipping coverage help would be nice considering ill probably be spending 100 or so both ways.


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## SQLnovice

SQLnovice said:


> It seems like shipping is pretty much covered. I normally don't have any important info to contribute to this site because this is a new hobby for me.
> However, if any driver is damaged in the process, I'll contribute $50 to replacing or directly to the owner of the driver. I'll try and keep up with this thread, but if my donation is needed at a later date, please contact me. Subbed.


This does not apply anymore because I contributed to shipping after this was posted.


----------



## quickaudi07

So I guess we will see results soon on these beautiful drivers!


----------



## dcfis

Who needs shipping funds?


----------



## ErinH

Jazzi said:


> I will certainly listen to what you have learned, no doubt about it. I have been going through the motions today and testing a speaker of my own design and sure enough, the limits for C and BL deviation were too lax and I smacked the voice coil against the backplate a few times before stopping it. This is why we make rough drafts and revisions, to find these things : )
> 
> So yes, please do send me a note with anything you found interesting or important. I've left the office for the day so I can't show a picture of the setup but it should be familiar to anyone who has used a Klippel rig before. Clamp the speaker horizontally, put a piece of tape on the dust cap and paint it white, aim the laser at the dot from the correct distance away, move the microphone into position, connect the amplifier leads and close the test chamber door. Setup the set in the software, press run, and then spend the next few hours trying to make sense of the mountain of data that is generated. Put the speaker in the power test room and do a "burn in" for the rest of the day, and do it all again tomorrow.
> 
> I do have the LSI module available as well as X10 and a few others. Is there something really specific most people would like to see? For the woofer I"m designing, I'm mostly interested in the small signal parameters (T/S numbers) and the large signal distortion products and what are causing them (BL strength and voice coil offset and compliance and inductance all vs displacement).
> 
> I plan to do anechoic frequency response and polar response with Joseph D'Apollito's methods from his fantastic book. Build a huge baffle, mount driver flush in the middle, make some acoustic and physical measurements, then window out all reflections and baffle edge diffraction. Make another very near-field measurement to capture low-frequency data. Stitch the far-field response and off-axis traces to the near-field data. It ends up looking beautiful.



I posted a lot of my setup here:
http://medleysmusings.com/test-setup-and-methods/

And I explain exactly how each test was performed, down to simulating the baffle effects. I have pretty much boiled down all my test methods and reading in to that one page for the layperson to understand what I was doing. It should be a good jumping off point for you. If you have any questions, hit me up and I'll give you my phone #. Nick, you too. 



FWIW, here's some of my old threads when I first started. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...quency-response-harmonic-distortion-only.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ing-get-back-old-ways-wanting-your-input.html

There's a lot of background in to what I went through initially and some of my trials and tribulations that may save you some headaches. 

And here's a picture of the first baffle I used which was a scaled IEC baffle to 5.5x6.75 feet.


----------



## Electrodynamic

SkizeR said:


> that was sarcasm. im sending 1 tm65ii and 1 gb60


Thank you for your purchase. Thank you again for sending in an Audiofrog $399.95 6.5" to compare to our $149.99 ($150.00 on Amazon) 6.5" to be analyzed by Klippel.


----------



## DC/Hertz

Electrodynamic said:


> Thank you for your purchase. Thank you again for sending in an Audiofrog $399.95 6.5" to compare to our $149.99 ($150.00 on Amazon) 6.5" to be analyzed by Klippel.


You sound confident.


----------



## Electrodynamic

DC/Hertz said:


> You sound confident.


Having a mid/woofer capable of playing above 2k with the prowess of a subwoofer with less than 2.5" of mounting depth is far and few between. If you have the extra depth and can afford a 5" deep mid/woofer the door is more open than most. For those trying to use a stock location mounting depth becomes an issue real fast.


----------



## DC/Hertz

Electrodynamic said:


> Having a mid/woofer capable of playing above 2k with the prowess of a subwoofer with less than 2.5" of mounting depth is far and few between. If you have the extra depth and can afford a 5" deep mid/woofer the door is more open than most. For those trying to use a stock location mounting depth becomes an issue real fast.


I agree. I'm stuck at 3in. Sure I can fab the skin. But that moves me up a class. A class I'm trying to avoid.


----------



## truckguy

It would be awesome if somebody had an Audible Physics mid to get klippel tested. Either the Ram or Brahma.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

As I understand it, the following woofers are on the way to me:

One Audiofrog GB60
Three SI TM65 mkII

It would be fantastic if I could test a second or third copy of an GB60 to avoid any dismissal of "bad" data due to having a "bad" copy of the GB60. I very strongly prefer this since I know somebody somewhere will be mad about some aspect of the result, and the best I way I know to combat that will be testing multiple samples and having a good technique.

If anyone else has decided to mail something, PLEASE let me know so I can expect it!

-Justin


----------



## SkizeR

Jazzi said:


> As I understand it, the following woofers are on the way to me:
> 
> One Audiofrog GB60
> Three SI TM65 mkII
> 
> It would be fantastic if I could test a second or third copy of an GB60 to avoid any dismissal of "bad" data due to having a "bad" copy of the GB60. I very strongly prefer this since I know somebody somewhere will be mad about some aspect of the result, and the best I way I know to combat that will be testing multiple samples and having a good technique.
> 
> If anyone else has decided to mail something, PLEASE let me know so I can expect it!
> 
> -Justin


I'll send 2

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

Sending PM


----------



## Alrojoca

Subbed, to find out some results.

Justin 
Is the test going to be in the South Bay, north bay, or you moved to the east coast ? ?


----------



## SkizeR

Alrojoca said:


> Subbed, to find out some results.
> 
> Justin
> Is the test going to be in the South Bay, north bay, or you moved to the east coast ? ?


hes in kentucky interning(?) at Eminence


----------



## Justin Zazzi

I800C0LLECT, got your message. Thank you very much for your offer!

Alrojoca, I am working at Eminence Speaker Company for the summer as an engineering design intern. I graduate this fall, and I'm considering coming back to continue working here. I cannot fully put into words how satisfying it is. It's like dreaming of becoming an astronaut knowing how absurdly unlikely it is, and then actually becoming one. There are astonishingly few speaker manufacturers in the US, and the fact that I'm working at one, in the engineering department, on challenging projects that dovetail directly with my skill set and passion, with a team of truly fantastic people .... it's a rare and beautiful thing. I truly hope everyone gets a chance to work in an industry they love like this.


----------



## Blu

Jazzi said:


> ...I am working at Eminence Speaker Company for the summer as an engineering design intern. I graduate this fall, and I'm considering coming back to continue working here. I cannot fully put into words how satisfying it is. It's like dreaming of becoming an astronaut knowing how absurdly unlikely it is, and then actually becoming one. There are astonishingly few speaker manufacturers in the US, and the fact that I'm working at one, in the engineering department, on challenging projects that dovetail directly with my skill set and passion, with a team of truly fantastic people .... it's a rare and beautiful thing. I truly hope everyone gets a chance to work in an industry they love like this.


That is freaking awesome - congrats!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

This box is larger than I thought 

Luckily I'm in VA so hoping shipping will be cheaper. I'm gonna go with full insurance and double boxing too.

EDIT: He's getting the full retail box minus some screws because I have full confidence in how it's packed vs me or the guy at UPS.


----------



## SkizeR

I800C0LLECT said:


> This box is larger than I thought
> 
> Luckily I'm in VA so hoping shipping will be cheaper. I'm gonna go with full insurance and double boxing too.
> 
> EDIT: He's getting the full retail box minus some screws because I have full confidence in how it's packed vs me or the guy at UPS.


theyre good so long as theres just cardboard around that box thats "skin tight". thats how they come right from audiofrog. its actually how most companies send their product

so your sending some too? if thats the case, ill just send one so i can stick the tm65 in the AF box and save on shipping


----------



## Alrojoca

Jazzi said:


> Alrojoca, I am working at Eminence Speaker Company for the summer as an engineering design intern. I graduate this fall, and I'm considering coming back to continue working here. I cannot fully put into words how satisfying it is. It's like dreaming of becoming an astronaut knowing how absurdly unlikely it is, and then actually becoming one. There are astonishingly few speaker manufacturers in the US, and the fact that I'm working at one, in the engineering department, on challenging projects that dovetail directly with my skill set and passion, with a team of truly fantastic people .... it's a rare and beautiful thing. I truly hope everyone gets a chance to work in an industry they love like this.





I noticed you were in that area, I'm glad you like the job and the company. I'm happy for you and wish you the best of luck. Great opportunity! Nothing like loving what you do and making money doing it.


----------



## dcfis

Please, please, please scope out some hidden eminence gems for us! Ava if you get the chance, design some!





Jazzi said:


> I800C0LLECT, got your message. Thank you very much for your offer!
> 
> Alrojoca, I am working at Eminence Speaker Company for the summer as an engineering design intern. I graduate this fall, and I'm considering coming back to continue working here. I cannot fully put into words how satisfying it is. It's like dreaming of becoming an astronaut knowing how absurdly unlikely it is, and then actually becoming one. There are astonishingly few speaker manufacturers in the US, and the fact that I'm working at one, in the engineering department, on challenging projects that dovetail directly with my skill set and passion, with a team of truly fantastic people .... it's a rare and beautiful thing. I truly hope everyone gets a chance to work in an industry they love like this.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

dcfis said:


> Please, please, please scope out some hidden eminence gems for us! Ava if you get the chance, design some!


I've been doing both, and the design I'm working on might be interesting when I'm done. It is certainly a fascinating project and I'm learning a TON about the Klippel measurement system. So much fun, I can't even...


----------



## I800C0LLECT

This just got expensive. About $55 shipped one way with insurance. Two GB60 woofers will arrive Thursday. Cheapest shipping they offered.


----------



## SkizeR

just got the tm65ii. will be shipping this and one gb60 together since another pair of gb60's were shipped. i will say the build quality on this is much better than the first version.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

I believe the combination of SkizeR, 1800COLLECT, and and third donor will be sending me a total of three GB60s, and three TI65ii's.

I hope to begin testing some if they arrive by Friday, and the remainder the following Friday.

Shipping is ending up being more expensive than we all anticipated. If you would like to donate some shipping funds to the cause, please contact the donors above or I can help you contact the third donor too.

I just want to say it again. This is a neat project and I am thankful for the tremendous generosity you are all showing here. Thank you for all that you do.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I don't think the money is worth as much as peace of mind in these topics. I do believe we dwell on details too much as a hobby. Sometimes we're crippled by the idea that one spec is better than another when in reality it may not make any difference in application.

I think the big reveal will be what the MKII brings to the table. I don't think these drivers compete against each other. Andy clearly states that the GB60's weren't designed to play below 60Hz but they can handle a 12db slope at 70Hz. The MKII begs us to play them low 

Thanks for chiming in Erin and Jazzi...kudos to you for doing all the leg work. This is definitely an expensive trust exercise!


----------



## quickaudi07

Yep I agree I800colect.. Andy told me the same thing when I was buying frogs

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Justin Zazzi

Update:

Completely unrelated but by happy accident, I have been working with the Klippel distortion analyzer at the office most of last week and most of this week too. After working through the online training, reading the application notes, and browsing the help files (all free by the way), I'm a thousand times more comfortable with it. Today was spent determining exactly how the test rig can damage a speaker by applying too much power and pushing the suspension into failure, and exactly what to look for to make sure that doesn't happen on accident.

I cannot recommend highly enough the free resources available from the Klippel website. Their technical and acoustic training are the absolute best I have ever seen anywhere. A lot of the material is much more advanced than what the average person here deals with, but if you have even a casual interest, I'm sure you can find something fascinating. I have a serious problem in that I want to read all the things, and don't have enough time.


----------



## Elgrosso

Wow this thread is evolving fast!
I don't have these drivers nor plan to use them but I’d like very much to participate, so please if someone feels he could use some donations PM me your paypal thing, SkizeR, I800C0LLECT?




Jazzi said:


> I800C0LLECT, got your message. Thank you very much for your offer!
> 
> Alrojoca, I am working at Eminence Speaker Company for the summer as an engineering design intern. I graduate this fall, and I'm considering coming back to continue working here. I cannot fully put into words how satisfying it is. It's like dreaming of becoming an astronaut knowing how absurdly unlikely it is, and then actually becoming one. There are astonishingly few speaker manufacturers in the US, and the fact that I'm working at one, in the engineering department, on challenging projects that dovetail directly with my skill set and passion, with a team of truly fantastic people .... it's a rare and beautiful thing. I truly hope everyone gets a chance to work in an industry they love like this.


That is awesome! Very cool to mix work and passion.


----------



## SkizeR

i could definitely use some considering ill be next day airing these things tomorrow..


----------



## SkizeR

Ok, either im using dats wrong (just got it today along with the tm65ii), and this thing is measuring all sorts of fugged.. anyone here familiar with it that can just double check that im using it right?

edit: realize i have to calibrate the leads. dohh


----------



## Electrodynamic

SkizeR said:


> Ok, either im using dats wrong (just got it today along with the tm65ii), and this thing is measuring all sorts of fugged.. anyone here familiar with it that can just double check that im using it right?


Do you need help with guidance taking near-field measurements? It's pretty easy. We can guide you through it if you're not familiar.


----------



## Electrodynamic

SkizeR said:


> edit: realize i have to calibrate the leads. dohh


Calibrating the leads (and the mic) would be a good thing.


----------



## SkizeR

Electrodynamic said:


> Calibrating the leads (and the mic) would be a good thing.


thats the problem.. leads refuse to calibrate whether i short them or use the 1k resistor


----------



## Electrodynamic

SkizeR said:


> thats the problem.. leads refuse to calibrate whether i short them or use the 1k resistor


Make sure your software and/or test gear is calibrated properly for properly accurate measurements. I'm sure there are members on here that can walk you through the process.


----------



## ErinH

SkizeR said:


> thats the problem.. leads refuse to calibrate whether i short them or use the 1k resistor


Did you RTFM? Kidding aside, DATS is very particular about how it's set up in the audio controls of your windows platform. If it's not right you'll likely hear a sweep but you'll get a "no valid resonance found" type warning and some jacked up looking results. 

So, double check your settings. Manual can be found on the product page:
Dayton Audio Dayton Audio Test System | DATS


----------



## SkizeR

ErinH said:


> Did you RTFM? Kidding aside, DATS is very particular about how it's set up in the audio controls of your windows platform. If it's not right you'll likely hear a sweep but you'll get a "no valid resonance found" type warning and some jacked up looking results.
> 
> So, double check your settings. Manual can be found on the product page:
> Dayton Audio Dayton Audio Test System | DATS


I'm been reading the manual. I think it may be my computer. Been having issues with the usb ports

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

are you giving the software adequate time to "warm up"?


----------



## SkizeR

ErinH said:


> are you giving the software adequate time to "warm up"?


figured out the issue. my computer is "muting" all recording devices for some reason. when i go to adjust the levels, it stays stuck at zero.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

ErinH said:


> are you giving the software adequate time to "warm up"?


That's a good idea. Maybe you could try "breaking in" the USB cable using another computer for a couple days.


----------



## SkizeR

Gb60 and tm65ii shipped. Will be there tomorrow


edit: just realized i forgot the send the foams.. ****


----------



## ErinH

Jazzi said:


> That's a good idea. Maybe you could try "breaking in" the USB cable using another computer for a couple days.








Per the manual:


> ...the hardware needs a full 90 seconds to stabilize after power up


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Oh come on now, that was funny. I just couldn't resist.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Simpson received my GB60s at the dock


----------



## ErinH

Jazzi said:


> Oh come on now, that was funny. I just couldn't resist.


okay, reading as you were trying to make a joke... yes. It is funny.

It came across to me like you thought I was just making stuff up. 



So, yea, I agree.... it's pretty silly. But unfortunately it's an issue. A lot of people complain about it. I've seen a few threads over on PE's TT forum where people can't get DATs to work and that's the reason why. :mean:


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Really looking forward to the TM II test. I plan on having a pair in my doors by the end of this year.


----------



## Elgrosso

ErinH said:


> okay, reading as you were trying to make a joke... yes. It is funny.
> 
> It came across to me like you thought I was just making stuff up.
> 
> 
> 
> So, yea, I agree.... it's pretty silly. But unfortunately it's an issue. A lot of people complain about it. I've seen a few threads over on PE's TT forum where people can't get DATs to work and that's the reason why. :mean:


Yes I know now! Always wondered why it needed some time to get stable results.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Update:

I have three boxes from three very generous folks willing to lend me their gear.

I have three GB60s and three TM65ii's. I also have, by pure coincidence because they were sitting on a shelf, a few other woofers that I want to include in this test.

Some of what I have is brand new and needs to be broken in some. I'm hoping to work around this and still return the speakers back to you all as soon as I can, hopefully getting them in the mail early this coming week.

I can't wait to see how this turns out!


----------



## miniSQ

slim chance, but if i buy a new car this weekend, and have to pull my stuff out, i can send in my Sinfoni maestros if there is time a the end of the test. And after you have gotten all the kinks worked out


----------



## ndm

Jazzi said:


> Update:
> 
> I have three boxes from three very generous folks willing to lend me their gear.
> 
> I have three GB60s and three TM65ii's. I also have, by pure coincidence because they were sitting on a shelf, a few other woofers that I want to include in this test.
> 
> Some of what I have is brand new and needs to be broken in some. I'm hoping to work around this and still return the speakers back to you all as soon as I can, hopefully getting them in the mail early this coming week.
> 
> I can't wait to see how this turns out!


You done yet?


----------



## Justin Zazzi

miniSQ said:


> slim chance, but if i buy a new car this weekend, and have to pull my stuff out, i can send in my Sinfoni maestros if there is time a the end of the test. And after you have gotten all the kinks worked out


I will be here and doing fun tests and side projects for the next few Fridays in a row. So if it all lines up for you, I would be more than happy to run them through the paces too.

Also, the kinks are already worked out. That's what I've been doing the past two weeks solid!


----------



## Justin Zazzi

ndm said:


> You done yet?


Nope. I need to convince more people to lend me drivers than there are people expecting them to be returned in the same amount of time. Then my acoustic ponzi scheme will be complete


----------



## Jscoyne2

I can loan you some scan 10fs if you'd like. Those drivers might have been klippeled already tho

You should go buy some crap boss drivers too so people have an understanding of what bad looks like

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## AyOne

I have some Scan 10f/8422 full range.


----------



## Jscoyne2

AyOne said:


> I have some Scan 10f/8422 full range.


Ive got the other version 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


----------



## AyOne

Jscoyne2 said:


> Ive got the other version
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


You have the discovery? Mine are a cheap special they had for a month. I don't even think were a production model, just something for madisound.


----------



## Jscoyne2

AyOne said:


> You have the discovery? Mine are a cheap special they had for a month. I don't even think were a production model, just something for madisound.


The full range version is a discovery too

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

Jscoyne2 said:


> I can loan you some scan 10fs if you'd like. Those drivers might have been klippeled already tho



I tested the midrange 10f here:
http://medleysmusings.com/scan-speak-10f4424g00-discovery-4-midrange-4-ohm-version/

I also tested the fullrange version (sans the linear xmax information from the Klippel LSI module) here:
http://medleysmusings.com/10f8414g10/


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Testing is going well so far. I'm 80% done with Klippel measurements. I'm about 0.3% done analyzing the data though. This will take a little while to gather all the screenshots and make it easier to read. Plus I plan to do anechoic polar measurements this weekend too. I have 6 woofers on loan, and I'm adding 2 mystery woofers to the tests for fun.


----------



## bassfreak85

pick the driver that is ideal for you install. if your doing sealed pick accordling if you are doing freeair go with the driver that gives you the FR you want freeair. 
i can't justify spending 800 of a pair of mids. 
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-es180ti-8-7-esoteric-series-woofer-8-ohm--295-397

mids i have now are pretty decent by all means and cost me 120 bucks to build with a custom shorting ing and n42 neo magnets. sorry but no way 800 buck.


----------



## quickaudi07

Where are you getting 800$ unless your talking about AF?. Than yes 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## gregerst22

bassfreak85 said:


> pick the driver that is ideal for you install. if your doing sealed pick accordling if you are doing freeair go with the driver that gives you the FR you want freeair.
> i can't justify spending 800 of a pair of mids.
> https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-es180ti-8-7-esoteric-series-woofer-8-ohm--295-397
> 
> mids i have now are pretty decent by all means and cost me 120 bucks to build with a custom shorting ing and n42 neo magnets. sorry but no way 800 buck.


From the specs, the highish Le (for having shorting rings), lowish Xmax and low sensitivity would be drawbacks for me. Klippel results show this driver to suspension limited to 4.1 mm xmax 10% distortion, and sensitivity even lower than stated by PE. 
I am really interested to see what Jazzi comes up with for the drivers that he is testing.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Can you share where the Kilppel results are for the Esoteric driver? I would like to see this.


----------



## Bayboy

Jazzi said:


> Can you share where the Kilppel results are for the Esoteric driver? I would like to see this.


At probably my most favorite place to read up on driver test results, and by the man himself, Dickason. 


Test Bench - Dayton Audio ES180Ti-8 7” High-End Midbass Woofer


----------



## gregerst22

Bayboy said:


> At probably my most favorite place to read up on driver test results, and by the man himself, Dickason.
> 
> 
> Test Bench - Dayton Audio ES180Ti-8 7” High-End Midbass Woofer


Yep. that's it.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Update:

The klippel measurements went very well. I have not done any data analysis other than making sure error% was low and S/N ratios were excellent. Whatever I captured should be good stuff. I look forward to digging into the data and making it readable for everyone.

In the meantime, my family has surprised me by flying out here for a visit. I am going to be spending lots of time with them now so I will not put much effort into data crunching for the next few days. I'll follow up with the woofer lenders to ensure they are returned on time.


----------



## bassfreak85

Bayboy said:


> At probably my most favorite place to read up on driver test results, and by the man himself, Dickason.
> 
> 
> Test Bench - Dayton Audio ES180Ti-8 7” High-End Midbass Woofer


Is that after breakin?


----------



## Bayboy

Should be. You can read in the article his standard testing procedures which he details more than others I've seen. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## bassfreak85

Actually the dayton does nicely on the test bench.
For the money its a pretty decent midbass.
The suspension needs alittle work but other than that its a great driver. Not to mention without 10+hours of play those kms curves could change..


----------



## Weightless

Jazzi said:


> Update:
> 
> The klippel measurements went very well. I have not done any data analysis other than making sure error% was low and S/N ratios were excellent. Whatever I captured should be good stuff. I look forward to digging into the data and making it readable for everyone.
> 
> In the meantime, my family has surprised me by flying out here for a visit. I am going to be spending lots of time with them now so I will not put much effort into data crunching for the next few days. I'll follow up with the woofer lenders to ensure they are returned on time.


Enjoy your time with the family. Priorities man...

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## 156546

Glad to see that you're going to measure in the chamber and not a near field measurement. Near field is accurate enough at low frequencies where the diaphragm is pistonic, but it doesn't measure the peaks and dips caused by cone modes at higher frequencies very well. 

Regarding a 6" driver playing bass: Ideally, speakers are crossed above resonance to keep distortion low. Resonance IS distortion. That's why I recommend the 70Hz or so high pass filter. It's good practice for all drivers--except subwoofers, of course. We don't really have an option with those. 

I'm eager to see these measurements. We do a full round of Klippel in development and for GB series, we're focused mostly on low distortion in the midrange, which requires both a balanced motor and a balanced suspension. 

The peak at high frequencies is the dustcap/coil former. Minimizing that peak is possible if one eliminates the dustcap, but replacing it with a phase plug reduces cone area and sensitivity. So, our objective was to match the sensitivity of all the GB mids as closely as possible and to use a copper shorting ring on top of the polepiece to minimize inductance along with a single layer coil, and to use a stiff and treated paper cone to push that peak out of the intended range of use.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Good timing. The dust cap does indeed stop behaving like an ideal rigid piston after some high frequency limit. This graph is NOT the GB60, it is a random 8" woofer I had nearby. The blue trace is with a microphone placed near-field, just about touching the dust cap. The purple trace is the laser I'm using for another project, aimed at the same spot. You can clearly see where the dust cap stops moving like a rigid piston around 300hz to 400hz since the laser and the microphone begin to disagree.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Also, update:

I am now seven pages deep into writing a report on the Klippel Distortion Analyzer, and the differences between the GB60 and the TM65 mkII. I'm really eager to finish this and share it.

The polar measurements have not happened yet. I am relying on a friend to help build the rig I want to do this with, and he has been more busy than we both anticipated. Thankfully I still have a pair of each speaker to test with, so I'm hoping to get this done as soon as I can.


----------



## SkizeR

The suspense is killing me 

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## 156546

Jazzi said:


> Good timing. The dust cap does indeed stop behaving like an ideal rigid piston after some high frequency limit. This graph is NOT the GB60, it is a random 8" woofer I had nearby. The blue trace is with a microphone placed near-field, just about touching the dust cap. The purple trace is the laser I'm using for another project, aimed at the same spot. You can clearly see where the dust cap stops moving like a rigid piston around 300hz to 400hz since the laser and the microphone begin to disagree.


I don't think it's the dustcap at 300 Hz. That's more likely the point at which the cone is no longer pistonic. When the cone changes shape, some parts of the cone move differently than other parts. That creates constructive and destructive interference, but you have to be far enough away from the cone to measure the sum.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Subbed for technical results. My ears say the TM65 MK2 are beyond belief.


----------



## Alrojoca

Thanks for the tease, ha ha


----------



## AAAAAAA

Can't wait to see klippel results. Also thanks at both reps for participating here.


----------



## sqnut

GotFrogs said:


> I don't think it's the dustcap at 300 Hz. That's more likely the point at which the cone is no longer pistonic. When the cone changes shape, some parts of the cone move differently than other parts. That creates constructive and destructive interference, but you have to be far enough away from the cone to measure the sum.


So there is substance to the idea that lower frequencies are produced from the part of the cone near the surround, and the higher frequencies are from closer to the dustcap. Thanks for the schooling we all get when you participate in a thread. I love the way you simplify things.


----------



## SkizeR

sqnut said:


> So there is substance to the idea that lower frequencies are produced from the part of the cone near the surround, and the higher frequencies are from closer to the dustcap. Thanks for the schooling we all get when you participate in a thread. I love the way you simplify things.


im 99% sure thats not what hes saying. "pistonic" would mean that the cone itself is staying rigid, in one single shape and not "deforming" (bending, flexing, etc) throughout the strokes


----------



## sqnut

SkizeR said:


> im 99% sure thats not what hes saying. "pistonic" would mean that the cone itself is staying rigid, in one single shape and not "deforming" (bending, flexing, etc) throughout the strokes


I know what pistonic means, but thanks anyway.


----------



## GEM592

See that's the thing with this forum. What a crazy idea/notion, and who knows where that originated?


----------



## sqnut

I get that the speaker plays the combined sound wave of all the frequencies being played at a given point.


----------



## t3sn4f2

SkizeR said:


> im 99% sure thats not what hes saying. "pistonic" would mean that the cone itself is staying rigid, in one single shape and not "deforming" (bending, flexing, etc) throughout the strokes


_I think_ it actually indicates the range of frequencies where those deformations do not affect the response due to wavelengths being too long for wave interference. The cone is still deforming it's just not affecting things.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

sqnut said:


> So there is substance to the idea that lower frequencies are produced from the part of the cone near the surround, and the higher frequencies are from closer to the dustcap. Thanks for the schooling we all get when you participate in a thread. I love the way you simplify things.


I'm also pretty sure that's not at all what was said or is being discussed here. Certain frequencies are not produced by certain areas of the cone. All areas of the cone produce all frequencies. Some areas of the cone make some frequencies with a phase that is different from other areas, and the result is a very complex interference pattern like the image below.


----------



## ErinH

We get it. You all are smarter than each other (evidenced by your passive aggressive replies toward one another). 

Next.


----------



## Elgrosso

GotFrogs said:


> I don't think it's the dustcap at 300 Hz. That's more likely the point at which the cone is no longer pistonic. When the cone changes shape, some parts of the cone move differently than other parts. That creates constructive and destructive interference, but you have to be far enough away from the cone to measure the sum.


Wow very cool graph. 
Just a dumb question here, what would happen if we re-measure at a longer distance?
Purple trace would stay the same, while the blue trace could get less side interferences so... smoother?
And higher amplitude maybe? (if we can exclude the loss of SPL by increasing the distance)


----------



## ErinH

Elgrosso said:


> Wow very cool graph.
> 
> Just a dumb question here, what would happen if we re-measure at a longer distance?
> 
> Purple trace would stay the same, while the blue trace could get less side interferences so... smoother?
> 
> And higher amplitude maybe? (if we can exclude the loss of SPL by increasing the distance)




This is probably the single best source of information I've come across regarding NF/FF measurements:
http://www.artalabs.hr/AppNotes/AP4_FreeField-Rev03eng.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgage

ErinH said:


> This is probably the single best source of information I've come across regarding NF/FF measurements:
> http://www.artalabs.hr/AppNotes/AP4_FreeField-Rev03eng.pdf


I seriously hate myself sometimes. Every time I see an article with polynomials in it, my eyes gloss over in reflex. Such bad memories of way too much math while working on an engineering degree. But I'll try to get through it as I would like to know more. Thanks for posting.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Thanks Erin, that ARTA application note goes into a lot of depth.

There is also a great section in Joseph D’Appolito's book Testing Loudspeakers that uses a lot less math but still has similar content.

Also because it's worth mentioning, Joseph write a wonderful multi-part article for Audio Xpress called Which Measurements Matter. See the first one below:
http://www.audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/dappolito2959.pdf


----------



## bassfreak85

results?


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Yeah are the results ready yet? Who's running this show anyways?


----------



## Weightless

****ing Justin's, I swear! 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

Jucking fustin

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


----------



## 156546

Jazzi said:


> I'm also pretty sure that's not at all what was said or is being discussed here. Certain frequencies are not produced by certain areas of the cone. All areas of the cone produce all frequencies. Some areas of the cone make some frequencies with a phase that is different from other areas, and the result is a very complex interference pattern like the image below.


Start on page 86

http://hbanaszak.mjr.uw.edu.pl/TempTxt/CollomsDarlington_2005_High Performance Loudspeakers.pdf


----------



## 156546

ErinH said:


> This is probably the single best source of information I've come across regarding NF/FF measurements:
> http://www.artalabs.hr/AppNotes/AP4_FreeField-Rev03eng.pdf
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Precisely.


----------



## JVD240

Sub'd.

Thanks to all of the members making this happen.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Update: I have eight pages written about the testing technique, the setup, how to interpret the data, what is being measured, etc. I'm digging into the data itself now. I hope to share something with you all as soon as possible because this is starting to make me frustrated that it's not done yet too!

New development: the polar measurement rig I'm relying on a friend to help me build *should* be our project this weekend so I *should* be able to get the frequency response data I've been aiming for and talking about.

In the meantime, here are some pictures. First is the lineup, second is the break-in phase inside the power test room, and last is the testing jig complete with laser. The white piece of tape on the center of each speaker is to give the laser something bright to reflect off of to improve the signal to noise ratio of the data (make it more reliable). Yes the microphone on the test rig is not in the correct position. No it does not matter for what I was doing at the time.

*edit* removing the photo of the lineup since the labels were incorrect and misleading. Be assured I caught that goof super early, just not before taking the photo because I was too excited in the moment


----------



## Weightless

Looks great. Can't wait to see the outcome . Pm coming your way...

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## Niebur3

Can't wait to read the results.


----------



## 555nova

Thank you to everyone that is making this happen.


----------



## 18inch

:lurk:


----------



## Swaglife81

I'm really anxious to see results as I'm close to pulling the trigger on my build with the SI's at my current number 1


----------



## dgage

So Swag. What side are you on? East, West, or the dreaded middle? Of TN that is.  I'm in K-town.


----------



## sensarmy




----------



## Justin Zazzi

(the breathing intensifies)

I've been speaker geekin' at a buddy's house all day today (building the polar measurement rig and making full polar measurements of 9 woofers). Then another freakin pair of woofers showed up in a Pampers box. So much to do, so much to analyze, so much to write. So much to sleep right now though....because the biggest damn yard sale I've ever heard about is tomorrow. It's 690 miles long, from Gadsden, Ala. to Hudson, MI! 
http://www.127sale.com

Yes the big baffle is asymmetrical. Bonus points if you know why!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Jazzi said:


> (the breathing intensifies)
> Yes the big baffle is asymmetrical. Bonus points if you know why!


Maybe it rhymes with "eye" "eee" "sea"? What are the prize/points?


----------



## gregerst22

diffraction?


----------



## quality_sound

gregerst22 said:


> diffraction?


Resonance. It's the same reason you should never brace a panel dead center.


----------



## Dan750iL

Jazzi said:


> ...Yes the big baffle is asymmetrical. Bonus points if you know why! ...


I made asymmetric baffles for the truck box I bought for my Dakota to fit 8" speakers in a spaces meant for 10s so they wouldn't touch the underside of the seat at higher excursion.

Seems unlikely that's the case here though. I just wanted to play along.


----------



## bbfoto

Late to the party but interested to see the results! I appreciate the enormous amount of work that you're putting into this Justin. And thanks to everyone that has contributed drivers to be tested, and also those that have posted relevant background info and reading material! 

BIG :thumbsup: to all!


----------



## disconnected

Thank you so much for your time and hard work.


----------



## RRizz

late, but sub'd. I love my SI Gear.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

bbfoto said:


> Late to the party but interested to see the results! I appreciate the enormous amount of work that you're putting into this Justin. And thanks to everyone that has contributed drivers to be tested, and also those that have posted relevant background info and reading material!
> 
> BIG  to all!


Justin is doing a huge service for us all! You can't really quantify contributions like this


----------



## Justin Zazzi

My reasoning for the asymmetrical baffle design is not related to the IEC baffle spec or resonance, but it is related to diffraction.

Update: the polar frequency response measurements are mostly done. The TM65 and GB60 woofers are done, along with a mystery woofer that has a phase plug, and another mystery woofer that does not. I have one more set of polar measurements to make with another model that just arrived. Time is getting really tight, this will be a challenge!

Also, the method I used in one of the Klippel tests was incorrect and I'll have to repeat it for all drivers I still have. Bummer, but I'm glad I caught it since it's a really big deal.

So, sigh..... another delay. The suspense is killing me!


----------



## quickaudi07

Can't wait to see the results!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## norurb

Jazzi said:


> My reasoning for the asymmetrical baffle design is not related to the IEC baffle spec or resonance, but it is related to diffraction.
> 
> Update: the polar frequency response measurements are mostly done. The TM65 and GB60 woofers are done, along with a mystery woofer that has a phase plug, and another mystery woofer that does not. I have one more set of polar measurements to make with another model that just arrived. Time is getting really tight, this will be a challenge!
> 
> Also, the method I used in one of the Klippel tests was incorrect and I'll have to repeat it for all drivers I still have. Bummer, but I'm glad I caught it since it's a really big deal.
> 
> So, sigh..... another delay. The suspense is killing me!


Any chance you could do a CSD (Waterfall) plot?


----------



## gregerst22

Jazzi said:


> My reasoning for the asymmetrical baffle design is not related to the IEC baffle spec or resonance, but it is related to diffraction.


woohoo bonus points!!


----------



## gregerst22

Jazzi if you keep getting more drivers to test maybe it would be best to break them up into two groups. That way at least your getting something accomplished otherwise might become too drawn out. Just a thought and thanks for all of your efforts.


----------



## USS Enterprise

Am I the only one who checks this thread 5 times a day for updates? lol

Can't wait for the results! Damn excited!


----------



## drop1

USS Enterprise said:


> Am I the only one who checks this thread 5 times a day for updates? lol
> 
> Can't wait for the results! Damn excited!


I check it every new post. Curiosity has a hold on me being that I'm currently running gb60's.


----------



## badshah

drop1 said:


> I check it every new post. Curiosity has a hold on me being that I'm currently running gb60's.


Same here running GB60's. I want to see how these stack up.


----------



## drop1

Im actually wanting to try the SI's because they are known for bass. I'm waiting to see how they do up to 2.5khz.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

gregerst22 said:


> Jazzi if you keep getting more drivers to test maybe it would be best to break them up into two groups. That way at least your getting something accomplished otherwise might become too drawn out. Just a thought and thanks for all of your efforts.


Well this is going to end one way or another this coming weekend since I fly home soon after.

The thing that is complicating the results is me trying to be a good journalist and having a conversation with the manufacturers (Audiofrog and Stereo Integrity and other mystery vendors) to ask them about my findings, correlate what I see vs what they see, understand the differences, and ultimately determine how important the differences are in the context of how these drivers will be used. I will say all vendors I have spoken to have been very receptive and wonderful to work with on this project and I'm optimistic this will benefit everyone in one way or another.

I am trying to not share too much about the project's progress because I fear leaks will ruin the one chance for a first impression to get things "right", but I will say I'm fascinated by what I'm finding and I know you all will be too. This is going to be *much* more than a "buy that speaker because it's better" story.....


----------



## drop1

Awe talking to the manufactures takes all the fun out of it!


----------



## dsw1204

Can't wait to see your findings.


----------



## rayray881

drop1 said:


> Awe talking to the manufactures takes all the fun out of it!


Agreed! As if any manufacturer is going to knock their own product or be straight forward with a product's shortcomings.


----------



## Electrodynamic

rayray881 said:


> Agreed! As if any manufacturer is going to knock their own product or be straight forward with a product's shortcomings.


I disagree. A proper, honest, manufacturer will take Klippel data use it for adjustments/improvements for future models and maybe even adjust crossover points or slopes recommendations or power recommendations to better suit the drivers. I don't think that Audiofrog, or us, would take the "our product is the best no matter what" road and ignore the data presented.


----------



## SkizeR

i think you guys are also missing the point of justin talking to the manufacturers. from what i understand, hes taking the data he found and seeing if it correlates with the data they have and to see why certain things were done in the design stage


----------



## GEM592

Yeah why not talk to the manufacturers, especially when you have data. Only makes it more interesting.


----------



## Onyx1136

rayray881 said:


> Agreed! As if any manufacturer is going to knock their own product or be straight forward with a product's shortcomings.


If you'd ever actually talked to manufacturers, specifically the engineers that designed the drivers, you would know this isn't true. I've spent extended amounts of time speaking to more manufacturers than I care to remember, and the great majority of them were very forthcoming with the limitations and shortfalls of their designs. They are smart people that understand that there is no perfect speaker, and all speakers have their compromises. And many of these people have worked for multiple brands in the market and have lots of great things to say about most of the other products out there. 

Sure, if you're talking to sales reps you're going to get the standard pitch about how their product is so much better than everyone else's. But everyone knows what a sales rep is going to say before they even have the conversation in the first place. Skip past those guys and find the ones that actually know the product intimately and you'll be able to have meaningful conversations with them.


----------



## bbfoto

drop1 said:


> Awe talking to the manufactures takes all the fun out of it!


I don't think so at all. It's way more important for Justin and each vendor to cross-reference and correlate the collected data on their respective drivers so that ultimately _WE ALL_ get more accurate information in the final analysis, and so that Jazzi can clearly present the details and possibly why each vendor made the design decisions and compromises that they did.

The more accurate the data, the more we all benefit and learn. Future products might greatly benefit from this data and the resulting discussion here. But if the collected data is flawed, and/or misinterpreted, I can already hear the, "well, your results and conclusion are null and void because blah blah blah...". 

Justin is taking the right approach, not just for his own sake, but for all involved. It's impossible to take away anything relevant or meaningful if the data and analysis are flawed. It would all just be a throwaway. And I'm sure he nor the vendors want this thread and all of his hard work to just end up being reduced to a DIYMA **** Show. Other than an *enormous* amount of work, it takes Real Balls to take on a project like this and present it for public scrutiny, so I highly commend Justin for his willingness and Massive Cojones in doing this!

The pre-discussion with each vedor will ultimately reduce the amount of needless back-and-forth "Why this?/Why that?" and should minimize multitudes of unnecessary posts that will just muck up the thread and make it more difficult to focus on the important details.

YES, it will be great to dig deeper and learn more by discussing the finer details, but the bulk of the information will already be laid out on the table for easy digestion instead of a DIYMA food fight, LOL.

Justin is *Da Man*! Thanks HEAPS for this!


----------



## rayray881

So, which manufactures have stated known problems or shortcomings up front? Did they recommend a different product from a different company?


----------



## Justin Zazzi

rayray881 said:


> So, which manufactures have stated known problems or shortcomings up front? Did they recommend a different product from a different company?


If you're interested in having a discussion with the intent to learn something, this could be fun and I will welcome you with open arms. But if you just want to ask toxic questions, then you will just perpetuate everything I hate about the internet and this will be no fun for anybody.


----------



## ErinH

*old head talking here*


I think it's a good idea to have discussion with the mfg like Justin has stated he's done. (Good ones) can provide insight in to the design process so you can explain why the performance is the way it is (for example, giving up low end extension for higher sensitivity and better cone control outside the nominal passband). IME, there's a lot of armchair speaker designers in this hobby and quite a few of them will latch on the first negative bit of data they see. Having a discussion with the mfg will often stop a poop-slinging fest - initiated by people who don't understand driver design philosophies - before it happens. 

That said, I've also had instances where a mfg didn't like the data I obtained but I had a vetted process that was trustworthy so the data was published regardless of the 'light' it put on them. Those are the cases where the manufacturer was either ignorant or knowingly provided misleading specs. That is the kind of data that is extremely useful for the consumer but also very controversial. Luckily, it was pretty far between... though I still have bad memories a particular incident with the design engineer of CSS at the time not understanding how to read a Klippel report. 





I'm looking forward to seeing the data and hearing Andy (from AudioFrog) and Nick's (Stereo Integrity) take on the driver designs. I've talked to both of them quite a few times... actually hung out with Nick last weekend at a comp... and have a pretty good idea of what they were trying to achieve. Looks like that will be conveyed to the group here and I think that's a great way to go about providing the data. I'm especially interested in the data in Nick's case as he has Patrick Turnmire (aka: God of Klippel) performing his Klippel tests. So I'd expect the data to match what Patrick provided Nick. 


Justin, keep rocking. 


- Erin


----------



## rayray881

Jazzi said:


> If you're interested in having a discussion with the intent to learn something, this could be fun and I will welcome you with open arms. But if you just want to ask toxic questions, then you will just perpetuate everything I hate about the internet and this will be no fun for anybody.


I wasn't talking to you specifically and the question has nothing to do with your specific test. Toxic? Some posters disagree with my opinion. I simply asked for evidence.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

rayray881 said:


> I wasn't talking to you specifically and the question has nothing to do with your specific test. Toxic? Some posters disagree with my opinion. I simply asked for evidence.


So I write that I'm conversing with the manufacturers, you comment about how you don't like that idea, and follow up again with with an impossible question related to that very same idea. Now you claim you're not responding to me and this is unrelated to what I'm doing here? My grandma would say you're full of prunes.

Ok, you want evidence? If you would take the time and look at the box or user manual that comes with all car audio speakers, you would see the overwhelming majority of manufacturers proudly and explicitly state the shortcomings of their products in the form of recommended crossover settings and power ratings. They very clearly tell you don't use the speaker outside this frequency range or at more than this power range otherwise the product might not please you or it could fail.

Then you ask if any manufacturer would go out of their way to publicly recommend a customer buy something from a competitor. What kind of question is that, if not toxic? It's like asking you to give me an example of a brewery tells their customers that another brand of beer tastes better.

I don't even want to type about this anymore. I still welcome you to be a constructive part of this conversation though.


----------



## rayray881

We are on 2 separate pages. Now, I understand what you are trying to accomplish by speaking to the manufacturers.


----------



## Swaglife81

dgage said:


> So Swag. What side are you on? East, West, or the dreaded middle? Of TN that is.  I'm in K-town.


The city of Chatt. here. I try to come to Know a few times a year for a Vols football game


----------



## Electrodynamic

ErinH said:


> *old head talking here*
> 
> 
> I think it's a good idea to have discussion with the mfg like Justin has stated he's done. (Good ones) can provide insight in to the design process so you can explain why the performance is the way it is (for example, giving up low end extension for higher sensitivity and better cone control outside the nominal passband). IME, there's a lot of armchair speaker designers in this hobby and quite a few of them will latch on the first negative bit of data they see. Having a discussion with the mfg will often stop a poop-slinging fest - initiated by people who don't understand driver design philosophies - before it happens.
> 
> That said, I've also had instances where a mfg didn't like the data I obtained but I had a vetted process that was trustworthy so the data was published regardless of the 'light' it put on them. Those are the cases where the manufacturer was either ignorant or knowingly provided misleading specs. That is the kind of data that is extremely useful for the consumer but also very controversial. Luckily, it was pretty far between... though I still have bad memories a particular incident with the design engineer of CSS at the time not understanding how to read a Klippel report.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing the data and hearing Andy (from AudioFrog) and Nick's (Stereo Integrity) take on the driver designs. I've talked to both of them quite a few times... actually hung out with Nick last weekend at a comp... and have a pretty good idea of what they were trying to achieve. Looks like that will be conveyed to the group here and I think that's a great way to go about providing the data. I'm especially interested in the data in Nick's case as he has Patrick Turnmire (aka: God of Klippel) performing his Klippel tests. So I'd expect the data to match what Patrick provided Nick.
> 
> 
> Justin, keep rocking.
> 
> 
> - Erin


Erin, which Nick are you talking about? We stopped using Patrick Turnmire a few years ago and went straight to Warkwyn (North American Klippel Representative) for any/all Klippel measurements [reference our M25 tweeter results].

*edit* We stopped using Patrick due to him pushing his MMAG platform on us every time we sent him an XBL^2 driver. Nothing major. No harm no foul.


----------



## ErinH

I wasn't aware of that. I knew you were using him in the past so assumed you still did. Good to know. 

PS: what do you mean "which Nick"? You're the only Nick there is, to me.


----------



## 156546

rayray881 said:


> So, which manufactures have stated known problems or shortcomings up front? Did they recommend a different product from a different company?


I often recommend other products when it's clear that our products are not going to meet a customer's expectations. I'd rather lose a sale than disappoint a customer. 

I also think this "gotcha" attitude regarding manufacturers and independent testing is ridiculous. Are there some manufacturers who are happy to claim their products do things they don't? Sure. 

I've found Justin's review to have been useful. He found a few small mistakes in the owner's manual, that I'll correct next week. 

It's also important to consider that different measurement environments and techniques provide different results.


----------



## sqnut

rayray881 said:


> So, which manufactures have stated known problems or shortcomings up front? Did they recommend a different product from a different company?


If the manufacturer is reliable and has published reliable results AND you know how to read those results, they've told you all you need to know (both +ve and -ve) to make your decision. In this specific case I would trust the specs from both manufacturers.


----------



## dgage

And forget shortcomings, let's just talk about focus and design decisions.

If I asked people what the perfect 6.5" woofer would consist of, I'd get a bunch of different answers. Some would want the 6.5" to go pretty high to integrate well with a smaller tweeter while some wouldn't care about that as they'd just use it for a midbass. Some would need a woofer to fit in a certain space or be thin while others wouldn't care if they had say a truck or custom doors.

It's not that one speaker is necessarily better or worse than the other, especially these two with slightly different design goals. It is simply which speaker is better for your given circumstances and I agree, there has been information provided to make those determinations, both from the manufacturers and fellow enthusiasts and there is about to be a lot more information thanks to Jazzi and others that have made this happen.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

There once was a king. The king had a castle and decided the stench of the moat surrounding the castle was horrible. So the king called his knights and told them to drain the moat.

The knights went to the peasants and told them to drain the moat.

The peasants came back and said the moat was full of alligators and they could not drain the moat. So the knights planned a tourney to select a champion of the realm to battle the alligators. The tourney was lavish and people came from all around to be a part of it. Eventually a champion was selected and went off to battle the alligators.

The champion, after damaging all of the armor they owned, had still not cleared the moat of alligators, and approached the knights to ask for gold to mend the armor so the fight could continue. The knights used a gofundme campaign to repair the knight's armor, and the alligators were all slain.

The knights were so proud of this accomplishment they returned to court with the champion and presented the news to the king, hoping to impress him. "We have slain the alligators in the moat!" said the knights.

The king was confused, and asked "didn't I tell you to drain the moat? It smells bad!".

The knights, after many long weeks of tourney planning and social media fundraising finally did remember their original plan was to drain the moat. So they told the peasants to drain the moat, and it was done.

---

I have been fighting the alligators all this week in one way or another, and haven't been able to drain the moat yet. I'm annoyed by this. I want to share all the crazy cool stuff with you all so bad!


----------



## disconnected

Like good $ex, it is worth the wait.


----------



## Electrodynamic

ErinH said:


> I wasn't aware of that. I knew you were using him in the past so assumed you still did. Good to know.
> 
> PS: what do you mean "which Nick"? You're the only Nick there is, to me.


Haha, no worries.


----------



## bilbo6209

Jazzi, 

We all appreciate all the hard work you have and are putting into this project! We all know this is hard complicated analysis and it takes a special person (not to mention access to some kick ass equipment!) to pull it all together! 

I'm sorry if some of us, myself included, are acting like spoiled brats the day before Christmas constantly pestering our parents to let us open _just one present_  

We are all chomping at the bit to hear your thoughts and see some cool graphs and charts 

Thank you for all the work you are putting into this! 

Now with that said Hurry up with the data! Lol yes in half way kidding


----------



## ErinH

Jazzi said:


> There once was a king. The king had a castle and decided the stench of the moat surrounding the castle was horrible. So the king called his knights and told them to drain the moat.
> 
> The knights went to the peasants and told them to drain the moat.
> 
> The peasants came back and said the moat was full of alligators and they could not drain the moat. So the knights planned a tourney to select a champion of the realm to battle the alligators. The tourney was lavish and people came from all around to be a part of it. Eventually a champion was selected and went off to battle the alligators.
> 
> The champion, after damaging all of the armor they owned, had still not cleared the moat of alligators, and approached the knights to ask for gold to mend the armor so the fight could continue. The knights used a gofundme campaign to repair the knight's armor, and the alligators were all slain.
> 
> The knights were so proud of this accomplishment they returned to court with the champion and presented the news to the king, hoping to impress him. "We have slain the alligators in the moat!" said the knights.
> 
> The king was confused, and asked "didn't I tell you to drain the moat? It smells bad!".
> 
> The knights, after many long weeks of tourney planning and social media fundraising finally did remember their original plan was to drain the moat. So they told the peasants to drain the moat, and it was done.
> 
> ---
> 
> I have been fighting the alligators all this week in one way or another, and haven't been able to drain the moat yet. I'm annoyed by this. I want to share all the crazy cool stuff with you all so bad!



Man, you gotta let that stuff slide. I dealt with it for years. People wanting data before I even got drivers in. People not asking, but telling me they were sending me driver's to test as if my time was unimportant. 

You gotta let that stuff roll off, though and don't take it so personally. Don't worry about interim updates. Don't get worked up. Post the data when it's ready, sit back and wait for an initial rush of 3-4 technical posts and then wear the strong sound of silence afterward. That's how speaker testing goes. Everyone cares until the data is posted. Then practically no one cares once the new wears off.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

There's more important things in life than this thread. Do what you gotta do Justin


----------



## Justin Zazzi

All very true. But *I* want to finish this project too since *I* also get enjoyment from it


----------



## ErinH

Jazzi said:


> All very true. But *I* want to finish this project too since *I* also get enjoyment from it


Well, there's a simple solution: finish the project. Don't waste time coming here posting about your latest update when you know all it's going to do is result in "oh, I can't wait" or "why the wait?" responses. 

Get the data. Review the data. Post the data when it's ready. People can wait... it's not like they have a choice.


----------



## TerryGreen5986

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Alrojoca

??


----------



## disconnected

mhmm.


----------



## 1fishman

Looking forward to this. subed


----------



## GEM592

I think real life is harshing this thread for sure.


----------



## Arete

Two drivers with (what seems to be) equivalent performance but very different price points being tested independently is why I love this forum. I'm stoked to see the results.

:snacks:


----------



## I800C0LLECT

They have very different goals imo. They are both very robust from what I've seen


----------



## Arete

I800C0LLECT said:


> They have very different goals imo. They are both very robust from what I've seen


Different goals? Other than accurate reproduction of midbass and midrange what do you mean?


----------



## Weightless

I beleive Nick had mentioned the emphasis on the low end while Andy said they were willing to make it a little lighter on the bottom end for improved distortion up top...

My memory sucks so take it with a grain of Fleur de Sel...

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## 156546

Yeah, the SI driver has much lower resonance than the GB60. I figure that at GB price points, no one is installing these things without a sub, so we went for a response that makes integrating the midbass with the sub a bit easier.


----------



## Arete

GotFrogs said:


> Yeah, the SI driver has much lower resonance than the GB60. I figure that at GB price points, no one is installing these things without a sub, so we went for a response that makes integrating the midbass with the sub a bit easier.


So where do you suggest crossing the Frogs? I cross my 660 GTIs at 80hz. What kind of response makes integrating a midbass easier? Judging by the FR it plays quite low, very similar to the TM65II


----------



## Niebur3

^^^I get great upfront bass with my GB60's at 80Hz


----------



## dgage

There's also the focus on a shallower driver for the SI.

I remember reading how Andy didn't feel the need to provide an 8" midbass since the GB60 was so potent, along with the capability to play up pretty high and integrate with the GB15 so well (sensitivity matching of the GB speaker line was also a goal assuming I read and remembered correctly).

Amazing that the SI may have slightly stronger midbass performance than the GB60. But there is no such thing as a free lunch so the TM65 gave up a little up top to provide stronger down low. But since the goal was to integrate the SI TM65mkII with the M25 tweeter, the TM65 doesn't necessarily need to play higher.

I'm a fan of both company's products and feel we are fortunate as consumers to have the choice. I also look forward to the detailed data but that won't change the fact that both products are very, very good.


----------



## AD Ventium

Can we all have a moment to realize the greatness of DC/Hertz for starting this thread and Skizer and others for sending in the drivers and the insane amount of work that Justin is putting in threads like this are what made me want to join this forum all of you are amazing and I can't wait to see the results. I plan on buying the SI woofers and tweeters off Amazon soon and this is just hyping me up more to get them tho I do wish I could afford a full Audiofrog set up I'm way too broke tho so oh well.


----------



## gregerst22

I'm still waiting or hoping for a 8" midbass from either of the two companies. There's room in this market for another good midbass in this size. Take the existing 6.5 and upsize it. No larger than 8" over all dia, shallow depth, neo magnet, 9mm one way xmax. Would love to see that happen. But in the meantime I'll enjoy my ZR800's.


----------



## bbfoto

gregerst22 said:


> I'm still waiting or hoping for a 8" midbass from either of the two companies. There's room in this market for another good midbass in this size. Take the existing 6.5 and upsize it. No larger than 8" over all dia, shallow depth, neo magnet, 9mm one way xmax. Would love to see that happen. But in the meantime I'll enjoy my ZR800's.


I'd love to see this happen as well. But the reality for any car audio speaker designer/manufacturer is that the potential market for this type of driver is probably way less than 1/10th of what a good ol' 6.5" is.

A well-designed 6.5" driver will fit in nearly 90% of the vehicles on the road today, with some only needing very slight modification via off-the-shelf adapters to allow them to fit in smaller 5.25" openings, or 5"x7" and 6"x9" openings. The 6.5" size is simply ubiquitous, a no-brainer, a staple of the car audio world.

An 8" on the other hand might fit at best just 10% of the vehicles on the road. And even then, usually some fairly heavy mods are needed to install them properly and minimize resonances, etc. If taking the "easier" route and mounting them in the front doors, you've got to remember that right off the bat 95% of the stock door panels don't have large enough OEM speaker openings or grills to accommodate that size driver. So at the very least, you'll be forced to modify that in some way, and then just HOPE that your door panels don't resonate, never mind the door cavity and mechanicals within the door itself. It's hard enough to tame with a 6.5" driver.

If I was a manufacturer, I wouldn't be able to dismiss the obvious ROI factor. It simply would not be a wise business decision to create a highly specialized 8" driver from a profitability standpoint alone.

I wish that this were not the case.

That being said, a well-designed 6.5" size driver is probably the most ideal compromise when used in a complete, well-designed loudspeaker _system_ within a near-field car audio listening environment. As implied, with a capable subwoofer and proper integration, a larger midbass/midrange driver is really of no benefit in achieving _an accurate, balanced system_.

Still, I just love larger drivers for their potential to minimize dynamic compression and distortion at _any_ given output level compared to a smaller driver.

Case in point...I recently upgraded my home studio monitors from a very high quality 5.25" 2-way that included a 12" satellite subwoofer, to a 7" 3-way design (keeping the same subwoofer.) These are both intended as near-field studio monitors.

While the detail, accuracy, staging, and tonality matched quite closely between the two, it was stunningly obvious which had the better dynamic capability. What was _interesting_ though is that this was obvious even moreso at lower listening levels!

With the larger speakers, I was actually able to listen at lower levels and still experience the full dynamics and fine details in the music. Sure, maybe the newer speakers are just "better" overall, but in all other aspects they are incredibly well matched.

Of course, in regards to a car audio environment, there are more obvious trade-offs and compromises to consider when trying to use larger drivers, but IMO it all comes down to how well you design and implement the _complete loudspeaker system_.

Providing that all other aspects of the system are addressed, the one thing that will kill the clarity, realism, focus, impact/dynamics, and sound stage more than any other factor is panel vibration and resonances. Any time that I've used an 8"+ driver up front, it has required a serious investment in planning, design, and time to fabricate/modify/treat the enclosure and/or mounting location just in order to address the resonance issues.

I'm constantly going back and forth on whether or not it's worth it.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

A 6x9 makes a lot more sense than an 8" in the ROI aspect. Likely a hair more cone area than an 8" from what I've read and if angled properly the beaming of a 6". But then you have to consider mounting depth. This is why a 6.5" in a 6x9 opening can be the best way to get a really good speaker in a 6x9 opening. I think the best way to make people believe that a speaker doesn't have to be round to sound great is to get the higher end oval offerings in show cars and comp cars. It's easy to think ovals can't sound good because they're a staple of the boom and sizzle group.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled wait for Klippel date


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Just to add to 6.5" vs 8"... The GB60 has so much throw there is zero benefit vs 8" when using the suggested slopes from Audiofrog.

That was one of the goals of the design, 8" performance in 6.5" design. Now both of those markets are covered AND it mates well in 2-way setups. HUGE win. But... That's also why the price is where it's at. The GB60 is a no compromise mid.


----------



## Bayboy

Is that stated somewhere by the manufacturer? I get long throw woofers, but there's some things often sacrificed to do so. Out of practicality that may be a choice for certain constraints, but as far as I've experienced and physics commands, cone area trumps excursion. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## 156546

Arete said:


> So where do you suggest crossing the Frogs? I cross my 660 GTIs at 80hz. What kind of response makes integrating a midbass easier? Judging by the FR it plays quite low, very similar to the TM65II


Since midbass drivers always go either in the doors (near the corner of the door and the floor) or the kick panels (also in a corner), the bass is accentuated by the location (in addition to regular cabin gain). So, we build the GB60 to have a pretty flat response in the midbass rather than the low frequency bump you'll find in lots of other speakers. That bump is usually created with a higher Q design (either motor or suspension) and higher Q raises distortion at Fs. A flatter response in the car helps with the whole integration with the bass thing. 

I ALWAYS recommend crossing at or above Fs to minimize distortion. OF course, that doesn't apply to subs. Up front bass is not matter of crossing the mids at the lowest frequency possible. It's a matter of ensuring that the midbass and the sub are in phase at the crossover.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Bayboy said:


> Is that stated somewhere by the manufacturer? I get long throw woofers, but there's some things often sacrificed to do so. Out of practicality that may be a choice for certain constraints, but as far as I've experienced and physics commands, cone area trumps excursion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Well what I think what was sacrificed is low end. That's why the caveat is there for crossover point

Edit: you got it Andy, my bad!


----------



## gregerst22

bbfoto said:


> I'd love to see this happen as well. But the reality for any car audio speaker designer/manufacturer is that the potential market for this type of driver is probably way less than 1/10th of what a good ol' 6.5" is.
> 
> A well-designed 6.5" driver will fit in nearly 90% of the vehicles on the road today, with some only needing very slight modification via off-the-shelf adapters to allow them to fit in smaller 5.25" openings, or 5"x7" and 6"x9" openings. The 6.5" size is simply ubiquitous, a no-brainer, a staple of the car audio world.
> 
> An 8" on the other hand might fit at best just 10% of the vehicles on the road. And even then, usually some fairly heavy mods are needed to install them properly and minimize resonances, etc. If taking the "easier" route and mounting them in the front doors, you've got to remember that right off the bat 95% of the stock door panels don't have large enough OEM speaker openings or grills to accommodate that size driver. So at the very least, you'll be forced to modify that in some way, and then just HOPE that your door panels don't resonate, never mind the door cavity and mechanicals within the door itself. It's hard enough to tame with a 6.5" driver.
> 
> If I was a manufacturer, I wouldn't be able to dismiss the obvious ROI factor. It simply would not be a wise business decision to create a highly specialized 8" driver from a profitability standpoint alone.
> 
> I wish that this were not the case.
> 
> That being said, a well-designed 6.5" size driver is probably the most ideal compromise when used in a complete, well-designed loudspeaker _system_ within a near-field car audio listening environment. As implied, with a capable subwoofer and proper integration, a larger midbass/midrange driver is really of no benefit in achieving _an accurate, balanced system_.
> 
> Still, I just love larger drivers for their potential to minimize dynamic compression and distortion at _any_ given output level compared to a smaller driver.
> 
> Case in point...I recently upgraded my home studio monitors from a very high quality 5.25" 2-way that included a 12" satellite subwoofer, to a 7" 3-way design (keeping the same subwoofer.) These are both intended as near-field studio monitors.
> 
> While the detail, accuracy, staging, and tonality matched quite closely between the two, it was stunningly obvious which had the better dynamic capability. What was _interesting_ though is that this was obvious even moreso at lower listening levels!
> 
> With the larger speakers, I was actually able to listen at lower levels and still experience the full dynamics and fine details in the music. Sure, maybe the newer speakers are just "better" overall, but in all other aspects they are incredibly well matched.
> 
> Of course, in regards to a car audio environment, there are more obvious trade-offs and compromises to consider when trying to use larger drivers, but IMO it all comes down to how well you design and implement the _complete loudspeaker system_.
> 
> Providing that all other aspects of the system are addressed, the one thing that will kill the clarity, realism, focus, impact/dynamics, and sound stage more than any other factor is panel vibration and resonances. Any time that I've used an 8"+ driver up front, it has required a serious investment in planning, design, and time to fabricate/modify/treat the enclosure and/or mounting location just in order to address the resonance issues.
> 
> I'm constantly going back and forth on whether or not it's worth it.


Agree that the market for 8" is a lot smaller. However, there are a number of cars that have factory 8" midbass or can accept one. Toyota Camry's, Infiniti, Lexus, Mazda come to mind I am sure there are many more. Offering an 8" midbass tells me the company takes highend audio seriously and not just catering to the mass market. But the smaller, but very important, Enthusiast market. Like Dynaudio, HAT, Illusion audio, Morel and to some extent JL does.


----------



## gregerst22

I800C0LLECT said:


> Just to add to 6.5" vs 8"... The GB60 has so much throw there is zero benefit vs 8" when using the suggested slopes from Audiofrog.
> 
> That was one of the goals of the design, 8" performance in 6.5" design. Now both of those markets are covered AND it mates well in 2-way setups. HUGE win. But... That's also why the price is where it's at. The GB60 is a no compromise mid.


IMO as a midbass the GB60's are really good. They have a lot of clean throw for a 6.5" and can match the output of some 8" drivers. but to make a blanket statement that there's "Zero benefit for an 8"? Lets agree to disagree on that. If all you can fit or all you want is a 6.5" you can't get much better than GB60. But for pure midbass a good 8" crushes it in output and does it cleanly. For my music tastes and the volumes I like to listen I feel more comfortable running ZR800's. But I would gladly swap them with GB80's if there were ever such a thing.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I think you have to remember the crossover point and application. If you want to play your mid-bass crossed low then GB60 can't compete with an 8". But then again, if that's your application, I wouldn't ever choose the GB60 as DEDICATED mid-bass. Plenty of cheaper/better options. But, if your crossing over at 80Hz(2 way or 3 way)... Why do you need an 8"? Additionally, there's no reason to go with an 8" in a 2 way...

Application is key


----------



## DC/Hertz

I just want to know how they stack up against my XLs which have been great for many years. I don't cross lower then 100hz anyway since the sub plays that high


----------



## Bayboy

I have set of cheap 8" in my Tacoma doors that are crossed around 100hz, but the slope is shallow. Very shallow. Still dig deeper with just as much output or maybe a tad more than the Satoris that they replaced. The Satori is no slouch in the midbass department as far a playing accurate with good output. Just not deep. 

But what is really being said, or compared rather is price to performance for a certain constraint. Why wouldn't you use bigger drivers if possible? That's less excursion needed for a given output down in an area that uses it. In a 2-way, no 8" is going to be that great, but to automatically suggest the smaller cone area in a 3-way when there's room for more doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Bayboy said:


> I have set of cheap 8" in my Tacoma doors that are crossed around 100hz, but the slope is shallow. Very shallow. Still dig deeper with just as much output or maybe a tad more than the Satoris that they replaced. The Satori is no slouch in the midbass department as far a playing accurate with good output. Just not deep.
> 
> But what is really being said, or compared rather is price to performance for a certain constraint. Why wouldn't you use bigger drivers if possible? That's less excursion needed for a given output down in an area that uses it. In a 2-way, no 8" is going to be that great,* but to automatically suggest the smaller cone area in a 3-way when there's room for more doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. *
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Luckily, my original statement was specific to 2 way. Gregster brought in "pure mid-bass" application. I already stated, there's better financial options and starting with cheap 8" is obvious.

But I'll standby my added statement that crossed high it can keep up with an 8". Run some simulations and you'll see. I think the klippel will back that up.

I've said it a lot...a C-weighted measurement with my radioshack meter showed mid 130 decibels and I didn't Max out volume. They kept up just fine at 80Hz and 24db slope. I tested them at 70Hz and same steep slope. I don't remember specifics but they were still fine. Never lost my up front bass either.

I'll see if I can run some calculations when I get home... I'll eat my words if needed 

Edit: I'll reiterate...I personally wouldn't spend $800 on these for dedicated mid-bass. That's asinine if you ask me


----------



## Bayboy

I800C0LLECT said:


> Edit: I'll reiterate...I personally wouldn't spend $800 on these for dedicated mid-bass. That's asinine if you ask me



That's what I was getting at somewhat. Performance in the smaller cone area drivers (so to speak) cost more. If you're bound by that size then they're probably valid


Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## gregerst22

I800C0LLECT said:


> I think you have to remember the crossover point and application. If you want to play your mid-bass crossed low then GB60 can't compete with an 8". But then again, if that's your application, I wouldn't ever choose the GB60 as DEDICATED mid-bass. Plenty of cheaper/better options. But, if your crossing over at 80Hz(2 way or 3 way)... Why do you need an 8"? Additionally, there's no reason to go with an 8" in a 2 way...
> 
> Application is key


This is straight from AF website for the GB60.
_"Recommended High Pass Filter Frequency and Slope: *≥ 70 Hz, ≥ 12 dB/oct*"_

_"Designed to be used in two- or *three-way systems*, the GB60 can be used in small enclosures or in infinite baffle applications. High power handling, low distortion and 9mm of linear one-way excursion make the GB60 a great foundation of any main speaker system." _


Earlier you said the GB60 was a "no compromise mid" and "there is zero benefit vs 8". But.. you're also saying it also needs to be crossed high enough (80Hz) so that it's not over extended. It sounds like your making a case which only fits your narrow critera. I am as big a fan of Audio Frog as the next guy but I am going to be realistic here.


----------



## quickaudi07

Try to cross that GB driver @12db and run it from 70 hz and you will see what will happen. not saying anything bad about it, but I really felt like im not getting any midbass what so ever from them, thats the only reason why i switched,

While doing so... I noticed big gain in SI speakers that GB didn't have. 

There is no need for me to cross them @12db slope they are doing just fine @24 from 60 up to 2300


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I tried 12dB slopes and that wasn't a good idea. So I'll give you that but we're really splitting hairs at this point. I started modeling but my daughter wants to play Mario kart before I start football practice.

Seriously... Model it and you'll see what kind of output you can get from these. They don't play well going low though.


----------



## Mlarson67

gregerst22 said:


> I'm still waiting or hoping for a 8" midbass from either of the two companies. There's room in this market for another good midbass in this size. Take the existing 6.5 and upsize it. No larger than 8" over all dia, shallow depth, neo magnet, 9mm one way xmax. Would love to see that happen. But in the meantime I'll enjoy my ZR800's.


I'll second that!


----------



## SkizeR

the one thing ive noticed is that people tend to go way overboard on the midbass because they think it sounds cool. i fell victim to this as well when i first started tuning. now that im more experienced, im finding myself usually cutting between 80 and 200 on most cars


----------



## dgage

SkizeR said:


> the one thing ive noticed is that people tend to go way overboard on the midbass because they think it sounds cool. i fell victim to this as well when i first started tuning. now that im more experienced, im finding myself usually cutting between 80 and 200 on most cars


Good point and great reminder. I just like the extra capability to have some more headroom before the limits. If you run things well within their capabilities, you'll get the best sound quality possible. But really, either one of these two woofers fit that criteria. Really I think its the tuning that really makes the difference when using drivers of this quality, primarily the sub/mid integration. (EDIT: Other octaves matter too but we're primarily discussing mids/midbass right now).


----------



## I800C0LLECT

gregerst22 said:


> This is straight from AF website for the GB60.
> _"Recommended High Pass Filter Frequency and Slope: *≥ 70 Hz, ≥ 12 dB/oct*"_
> 
> _"Designed to be used in two- or *three-way systems*, the GB60 can be used in small enclosures or in infinite baffle applications. High power handling, low distortion and 9mm of linear one-way excursion make the GB60 a great foundation of any main speaker system." _
> 
> 
> *Earlier you said the GB60 was a "no compromise mid" and "there is zero benefit vs 8".*
> 
> 
> 
> I800C0LLECT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to add to 6.5" vs 8"... The GB60 has so much throw there is zero benefit vs 8" *when using the suggested slopes from Audiofrog.*
> 
> 
> 
> But.. you're also saying it also needs to be crossed high enough (80Hz) so that it's not over extended. It sounds like your making a case which only fits your narrow critera. I am as big a fan of Audio Frog as the next guy but I am going to be realistic here.
Click to expand...

First, quoted my statements above.

Next...

Here ya go...it's the GB60 sealed and vented vs Peerless SLS 8" sealed and vented. HP @ 70Hz w/12db slope and "100 watt" signal. I set the xmax limited to published specs and NOT klippel data. GB60 = 9mm, Peerless SLS 8" = 8.4mm

The GB60 is a no compromise mid. Majority of the time designers choose for a mid covering so many octaves of sound to excel as a mid-range or woofer but NOT both. It's VERY expensive to excel in both areas; hence all the discussions about compromises. The GB60 was designed to do both VERY well. However, if you don't run a sub and want to cross it low, it severely limits overall output and sq. That's where the MKII will shine. But will you notice the difference between the two? That's for the user to decide.

Will you notice the difference between the Peerless 8" when GB60 is dedicated midbass?...if you need to cross low you will. Otherwise it should keep up fine unless you want some of those ear bleeding volumes that some of enjoy 

And if you do more reading, the GB60 primary design cue was for 2-way. Go check out what Erin and Andy said about it when reviewing klippel and other data.


EDIT: fack. So how do I host these images now? a;sldka;lskj;ljkasdf;ljkasdflkasdjfl. Let me tinker.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Know what... I'm done. I've been coaching football and flag football for 2 hours, 4 nights a week, since May. I'm exhausted and going to bed ;p


----------



## gregerst22

SkizeR said:


> the one thing ive noticed is that people tend to go way overboard on the midbass because they think it sounds cool. i fell victim to this as well when i first started tuning. now that im more experienced, im finding myself usually cutting between 80 and 200 on most cars


I have learned that too. Midbass & the lower midrange most often can be tricky to tune. Over the years I have collected some good songs and tracks that help me quickly reveal issues in this area. I have listened to them so much I know what freq bands corresponds to times in the tracks. In addition for tuning in general I have a reference system in my garage so I can do quick A/B comparisons with my car. 
I am all about having a well balanced sounding system. But I like it to get loud when I want it to and do so cleanly. I believe the statement that 'there's no replacement for displacement' still holds true if you want clean output at high volume. Although very capable, the GB60's midbass were right at the borderline for me. But since 8's fit perfectly in my car I opted to go that route. For dedicated midbass my 8's just do it with ease and with plenty of headroom and flexibility and crossover points. But I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for the GB80 or TM80 MK1 woofers.


----------



## sqnut

SkizeR said:


> the one thing ive noticed is that people tend to go way overboard on the midbass because they think it sounds cool. i fell victim to this as well when i first started tuning. now that im more experienced, im finding myself usually cutting between 80 and 200 on most cars


^^^ This.

I have always run the HP on my mid-bass below the drivers resonance frequency. Then again, I'm not throwing a zillion watts at them and I don't listen at 130 db, so I'm doing them no harm. I cross my mids and subs at 50hz on fourth order slopes, this for a speaker with an fs of 65hz. 

The smaller the car, the higher up in frequency, the effect of cabin gain will be. Typically we're hearing its effects upto ~90-100 hz and too much at 80hz makes the mid bass dull, 100 hz is the fizz in the bass and you cut less, 125 makes the bass grainy and muddy, and 200-300 is bloat. So yes in most applications one will selectively cut a lot in the 80-300 range. 

Based on specs on the company sites, the GB 60 has an Fs of 65hz to the SI's published spec of 69 hz, not much to choose there. The AF is ~ 6db lower at 50 hz vs 80 hz, which is about the same for the SI. In real world terms, I don't think one will have a substantially better low end than the other. 

It's a different story when you start looking at the LP end of the driver. Here the AF is +/- ~ 2 db from 1 khz-3 khz, while the SI has 5 db swings in the same range and rolls of earlier than the AF. Also keep in mind that the FR on the SI site is probably smoothed to 1/3 oct while the AF looks like 1/12. 

Nutshell, if I were going three way the SI would be a no brainer while in a two way, I'd stretch a bit and get the AF. I think both drivers are very good but best suited for very different applications.


----------



## gregerst22

sqnut said:


> ^^^ This.
> 
> I have always run the HP on my mid-bass below the drivers resonance frequency. Then again, I'm not throwing a zillion watts at them and I don't listen at 130 db, so I'm doing them no harm. I cross my mids and subs at 50hz on fourth order slopes, this for a speaker with an fs of 65hz.
> 
> The smaller the car, the higher up in frequency, the effect of cabin gain will be. Typically we're hearing its effects upto ~90-100 hz and too much at 80hz makes the mid bass dull, 100 hz is the fizz in the bass and you cut less, 125 makes the bass grainy and muddy, and 200-300 is bloat. So yes in most applications one will selectively cut a lot in the 80-300 range.
> 
> Based on specs on the company sites, the GB 60 has an Fs of 65hz to the SI's published spec of 69 hz, not much to choose there. The AF is ~ 6db lower at 50 hz vs 80 hz, which is about the same for the SI. In real world terms, I don't think one will have a substantially better low end than the other.
> 
> It's a different story when you start looking at the LP end of the driver. Here the AF is +/- ~ 2 db from 1 khz-3 khz, while the SI has 5 db swings in the same range and rolls of earlier than the AF. Also keep in mind that the FR on the SI site is probably smoothed to 1/3 oct while the AF looks like 1/12.
> 
> Nutshell, if I were going three way the SI would be a no brainer while in a two way, I'd stretch a bit and get the AF. I think both drivers are very good but best suited for very different applications.


Good analysis. Maybe someday soon we will get to see Jazzi's klippel results and have more in depth data to look at.


----------



## gregerst22

I800C0LLECT said:


> First, quoted my statements above.
> 
> Next...
> 
> Here ya go...it's the GB60 sealed and vented vs Peerless SLS 8" sealed and vented. HP @ 70Hz w/12db slope and "100 watt" signal. I set the xmax limited to published specs and NOT klippel data. GB60 = 9mm, Peerless SLS 8" = 8.4mm
> 
> The GB60 is a no compromise mid. Majority of the time designers choose for a mid covering so many octaves of sound to excel as a mid-range or woofer but NOT both. It's VERY expensive to excel in both areas; hence all the discussions about compromises. The GB60 was designed to do both VERY well. However, if you don't run a sub and want to cross it low, it severely limits overall output and sq. That's where the MKII will shine. But will you notice the difference between the two? That's for the user to decide.
> 
> Will you notice the difference between the Peerless 8" when GB60 is dedicated midbass?...if you need to cross low you will. Otherwise it should keep up fine unless you want some of those ear bleeding volumes that some of enjoy
> 
> And if you do more reading, the GB60 primary design cue was for 2-way. Go check out what Erin and Andy said about it when reviewing klippel and other data.
> 
> 
> EDIT: fack. So how do I host these images now? a;sldka;lskj;ljkasdf;ljkasdflkasdjfl. Let me tinker.


Having used many higher end midbass/midrange drivers in various sizes over the years. I personally hold the GB60 in high regard. I would put it up close to the 18WU. Which is what I had been using right before I put in the GB60's. But the audiofrogs are much more install friendly, better suited for car environment than the Scans. For a two-way the frogs might be one of the best newer speakers out right now. For a three-way if all you have room for are 6.5" these are still dang good. But I agree from a design, cost/performance perspective a two way with the GB60 is were I would say it makes the most sense for a majority of people.

btw your images are too small to view. For image hosting flickr works good. Once you upload the images to your flickr account you can click on the image size. Choose the size of image you want. then right click the image and copy image address. then paste it in the image URL on here.


----------



## ndm

After finally realizing the enormous improvement in the type of midbass I enjoy by slipping into a pair of zr800s, I am now totally sold on the idea of a AF GB80. 

Sure maybe the GB60 is a great performing 6.5 inch driver...but I can say with 100% certainty that should such a GB80 exist for mass consumption, I would soon thereafter be running it in my rides. 

I absolutely love my GB25 and GB10 combo. I have 2 other vehicles that will run the same setup.....unless there was an oportunity to run a GB80 dedicated midbass. 
I had the SI TM65 original and there simply is no comparrison to the ZR800. 

For those that question the market for the 8 inch, I do not see any issues with the sales of the ZR800. In my opinion, a GB80 would be a fricking Midbass game changer. If the same build quality and superb engineering of the GB60 was applied to a potential 8 inch.....game over for me. I am a huge fan of the Audiofrog brand as well as the owner and creator.

My wish is simply this.....Andy, although the 8 inch may not sell as well as your other drivers......although it may have to be a special order item or something.....although the GB60 is more than adequate for 90 % of the folks out there......please....please build them and complete your cult following. I am 100 % on board if this is the case.

And for those that say "most people run too much midbass"....and "you dont need midbass to..." and "you need ..blah..blah..blah". Well, I also dont need over x amount of horsepower and torque. I dont need the large home that I raise my family in. I dont "need" the six cars that I own either.

My point, let me decide what and how I want to set up my ride. Mine is not 100% SQ. Mine is dynamic, clean, upfront, powerful and set up the way I like it. I have found my happy place with my amazing AF tweets and mids, my 8 inch IB door gorrillas and my 3600 watt powerplant in the rear sitting next to my amazingly accurate dual 15 inch earth shakey shifters. All of it controlled by my little black time and space manipulation machine. (No...I dont do drugs)

Please build a dedicated 8 inch sibling for my current AF gear....*If you build it they will come". 

Okay, bedtime now.


----------



## Bayboy

Personally, I'd like to see an 8" in the GS series but it has already gotten a 6x9 so I doubt that happens. 

I've used the original TM65 and was impressed at first. Have no doubt either of the new drivers are a good improvement over it. Regardless of the data to come, I'm sure both will still have a good following. We always welcome new additions to this hobby 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Timelessr1

ndm said:


> After finally realizing the enormous improvement in the type of midbass I enjoy by slipping into a pair of zr800s, I am now totally sold on the idea of a AF GB80.
> 
> Sure maybe the GB60 is a great performing 6.5 inch driver...but I can say with 100% certainty that should such a GB80 exist for mass consumption, I would soon thereafter be running it in my rides.
> 
> I absolutely love my GB25 and GB10 combo. I have 2 other vehicles that will run the same setup.....unless there was an oportunity to run a GB80 dedicated midbass.
> I had the SI TM65 original and there simply is no comparrison to the ZR800.
> 
> For those that question the market for the 8 inch, I do not see any issues with the sales of the ZR800. In my opinion, a GB80 would be a fricking Midbass game changer. If the same build quality and superb engineering of the GB60 was applied to a potential 8 inch.....game over for me. I am a huge fan of the Audiofrog brand as well as the owner and creator.
> 
> My wish is simply this.....Andy, although the 8 inch may not sell as well as your other drivers......although it may have to be a special order item or something.....although the GB60 is more than adequate for 90 % of the folks out there......please....please build them and complete your cult following. I am 100 % on board if this is the case.
> 
> And for those that say "most people run too much midbass"....and "you dont need midbass to..." and "you need ..blah..blah..blah". Well, I also dont need over x amount of horsepower and torque. I dont need the large home that I raise my family in. I dont "need" the six cars that I own either.
> 
> My point, let me decide what and how I want to set up my ride. Mine is not 100% SQ. Mine is dynamic, clean, upfront, powerful and set up the way I like it. I have found my happy place with my amazing AF tweets and mids, my 8 inch IB door gorrillas and my 3600 watt powerplant in the rear sitting next to my amazingly accurate dual 15 inch earth shakey shifters. All of it controlled by my little black time and space manipulation machine. (No...I dont do drugs)
> 
> Please build a dedicated 8 inch sibling for my current AF gear....*If you build it they will come".
> 
> Okay, bedtime now.


I'm glad to hear you say this b/c currently I have the original TM65's as dedicated mid bass in a 3way, and bought a pair of ZR800's. I haven't had the time to install them, and i was just hoping that i made the right move since installing them is going to take a little bit more then when i put in the 6.5s


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## DC/Hertz

I had the ZR800s in the last car. Fare warning. If they are going in the door be prepared to put many hours into that door. They will try to tear it apart. 

Between having a sub that plays higher and the Hertz XLs, I don't miss the ZRs. 
They where amazing when I had a 150db sub stage and needed as much mid bass support as possible, now with a much milder sub stage they wouldn't be needed.


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## I800C0LLECT

I think this all comes back to the age old issue of how to achieve up front bass. Bigger drivers and lower crossover points are the easiest approach. I personally don't like the tactile feedback though. I want it loud without and up front without all the vibrations


----------



## seafish

Bayboy said:


> I've used the original TM65 and was impressed at first.


I am curious what you mean by "at first" ??


----------



## Bayboy

seafish said:


> I am curious what you mean by "at first" ??


The first version is beastly, but in a narrow range in my install. Between 120hz-500hz it had plenty of output, but below 100hz was pretty much nothing. At first, having plenty of output in that range was "fun" until the initial impression worn off and I realized I wanted a tad more under that to match my system better. Not to mention extracting that output was straining midrange detail some as they seemed to near their limits on a 2-way. I later switched to the Satori 6.5 which was much cleaner, detailed, and extended upwards enough to make a 2-way work really good though it didn't extend below 100hz much better. Now I'm using some buyout 8" that give me what I needed on the bottom of a 3-way. Don't see myself going back to the TM65 in either 2 or 3-way. 

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## quickaudi07

I think everyone is expecting more from drivers that what they are really capable. Im Very happy with my system. And yes if you have the time and money, you could buy speakers and everything from the top shelf, is it worth it that much, what is it that we are all looking for? How much time, energy, and money do we all have to throw at equipment all the damn time.


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## Bayboy

Well it's tests and comparisons like these that gives the needed info to those that don't have the means. Nothing wrong with that. As far as what gets extracted from each driver varies a bit by the user so it will always be a bit subjective. I've used the same drivers from one vehicle install to another and the amount of difference in assumed "capabilities" was certainly audible enough to nay in one and yay in the other. With that said, there is always going to be some trial & error in this hobby. Forum boners lead to a lot of that. For some it becomes a mainstay while others move on, but everyone has to justify their own spending & effort. again, nothing wrong I see there. 

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## quickaudi07

It just drives me Bananas Happy Friday All ! lol


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## Bayboy

quickaudi07 said:


> It just drives me Bananas Happy Friday All ! lol


Don't let it. Do it for yourself even if that means going against the grain. I'm one of the least that still do and love doing it, but I still like to look at evaluations & test results from others. It's all educational entertainment.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## 156546

I800C0LLECT said:


> I think this all comes back to the age old issue of how to achieve up front bass. Bigger drivers and lower crossover points are the easiest approach. I personally don't like the tactile feedback though. I want it loud without and up front without all the vibrations


I agree with the tactile part of this, but not with the suggestion that the brute force method is the easiest.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

GotFrogs said:


> I agree with the tactile part of this, but not with the suggestion that the brute force method is the easiest.


I only say easy because the forum boner is to throw the biggest driver at the problem. It certainly won't give the best results without a lot of hard work. I don't have time for that ;P


----------



## Bayboy

Well let's consider that you go the opposite direction and that even includes kicks. Lessening cone area and throw just doesn't work well. Some even suggest low Q drivers to avoid a knee in the lower response. Works sometime, other times not so much. There's many ways to skin a cat, but crossing a sub lower within reason does help with eliminating localization though it may differ per car and install. So there's obviously a demand for such drivers in this test as well as larger ones. 

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## bbfoto

SkizeR said:


> the one thing ive noticed is that people tend to go way overboard on the midbass because they think it sounds cool. i fell victim to this as well when i first started tuning. now that im more experienced, im finding myself usually cutting between 80 and 200 on most cars


This is exactly what I was alluding to in my previous post regarding a well-designed 6.5" vs. 8" midbass, when you are _also_ using a capable subwoofer and integrating it properly..."a larger midbass/midrange driver is really of no benefit in achieving an *accurate, balanced system.*"

I always know when I have this balance right when I achieve realistic, solid, EVEN, articulate, up-front bass reproduction of an upright acoustic double bass playing a full walking bass line or scale, and also that it blends naturally in the mix of other instruments, making sure it isn't standing out too much. Caveat: this balance may be quite different between your "driving tune" and your "car off" or "judging tune".

As Andy pointed out, any drivers that are playing mid-bass or bass frequencies will be naturally enhanced by corner-loading *+* cabin gain (assuming that the drivers are mounted low & forward in the front doors, or in the kickpanel area).

This is obviously why a single, relatively small Subwoofer can work so well in the front passenger footwell, although its success is also dependent on the the specific vehicle and where the low frequency nodes end up.


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## bbfoto

DC/Hertz said:


> I had the ZR800s in the last car. Fare warning. If they are going in the door be prepared to put many hours into that door. They will try to tear it apart.
> 
> Between having a sub that plays higher and the Hertz XLs, I don't miss the ZRs.
> They where amazing when I had a 150db sub stage and needed as much mid bass support as possible, now with a much milder sub stage they wouldn't be needed.





ndm said:


> After finally realizing the enormous improvement in the type of midbass I enjoy by slipping into a pair of zr800s, I am now totally sold on the idea of a AF GB80.
> 
> Sure maybe the GB60 is a great performing 6.5 inch driver...but I can say with 100% certainty that should such a GB80 exist for mass consumption, I would soon thereafter be running it in my rides.
> 
> I absolutely love my GB25 and GB10 combo. I have 2 other vehicles that will run the same setup.....unless there was an oportunity to run a GB80 dedicated midbass.
> I had the SI TM65 original and there simply is no comparrison to the ZR800.
> 
> For those that question the market for the 8 inch, I do not see any issues with the sales of the ZR800. In my opinion, a GB80 would be a fricking Midbass game changer. If the same build quality and superb engineering of the GB60 was applied to a potential 8 inch.....game over for me. I am a huge fan of the Audiofrog brand as well as the owner and creator.
> 
> My wish is simply this.....Andy, although the 8 inch may not sell as well as your other drivers......although it may have to be a special order item or something.....although the GB60 is more than adequate for 90 % of the folks out there......please....please build them and complete your cult following. I am 100 % on board if this is the case.
> 
> And for those that say "most people run too much midbass"....and "you dont need midbass to..." and "you need ..blah..blah..blah". Well, I also dont need over x amount of horsepower and torque. I dont need the large home that I raise my family in. I dont "need" the six cars that I own either.
> 
> My point, let me decide what and how I want to set up my ride. Mine is not 100% SQ. Mine is dynamic, clean, upfront, powerful and set up the way I like it. I have found my happy place with my amazing AF tweets and mids, my 8 inch IB door gorrillas and my 3600 watt powerplant in the rear sitting next to my amazingly accurate dual 15 inch earth shakey shifters. All of it controlled by my little black time and space manipulation machine. (No...I dont do drugs)
> 
> Please build a dedicated 8 inch sibling for my current AF gear....*If you build it they will come".
> 
> Okay, bedtime now.



I don't 100% disagree. If the GB80 were produced I would probably buy and use them.  Though I can't even imagine what type of work I'd have to do to provide and build a solid, non-resonant enclosure and/or mounting location for this beast. 

My only true concern for most enthusiasts is realistically, what would these cost? This _is_ a DIY forum after all. They'd obviously be a much more boutique and very specialized driver compared to any 6.5". The AF GB60 is already one of THE most expensive 6.5" drivers on the market. To offset the quantity of low sales numbers over the way more universal 6.5", the per unit cost of a GB80 would probably need to come way up in proportion. So are we talking $800, $1000, or more per pair?

I think that the cost/performance ratio of the ZR800 is probably already right at the high end of the sweet spot for most consumers. IDK? How many people are buying and using the *Illusion Audio Carbon C8-W* ?


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## DC/Hertz

Considering the added cost and time to get the ZRs right it all worked out in the end. 
It's just like the SPL side. If a 5k was to expensive and you still had to pour thousands in electrical to run it then they would rarely sell.


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## Bayboy

Not following this train of thought. Sure the ZR800 is beefy, but with the extra cone area, do you really need an 8" to be so heavy duty for midbass duty? Not everyone as you've seen. As far as a beefy 6.5" such as the GB60, if you could fit a far less expensive 8" that can equal or at least get close to the output in amplitude and response (for strictly midbass duty of course) then why choose the more expensive driver unless you have install constraints and still desire the capabilities? See where this is going? It's quite simple 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

Now I'll definitely agree with that train of thought. Maybe one thing that got us off track...I didn't pay for my GB60s. So as I stated before, they're a no compromise mid. They can't compete as dedicated midbass against a high end 8" though.

I wouldn't buy them to run as dedicated mid-bass. That's just silly imo


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## ErinH

Bayboy said:


> Not following this train of thought. Sure the ZR800 is beefy, but with the extra cone area, do you really need an 8" to be so heavy duty for midbass duty? Not everyone as you've seen. As far as a beefy 6.5" such as the GB60, if you could fit a far less expensive 8" that can equal or at least get close to the output in amplitude and response (for strictly midbass duty of course) then why choose the more expensive driver unless you have install constraints and still desire the capabilities? See where this is going? It's quite simple
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I understand your point: an 8" trumps a 6" in cone area and likely displacement even if the 8" were to have less rated xmax. But, since the question of how 'beefy' an 8" needs to be has come up, it's pertinent to note the ZR800's excursion capability is quite high.

The one thing about the zr800 is that it has klippel verified 9mm one-way xmax (Manville posted the data years back when it was first introduced). A lot of 8" drivers (short of subwoofers) don't have more than 5-6mm of linear one-way throw. So in this regard, the JL is among top of the line and purpose built as a long throw midwoofer. 




I don't really want to take this thread any further down the 8" vs 6" canal; I think we all understand that if one has the space and can fit an 8" woofer then it's more practical to go that route when shopping for a midbass application only. But, really, this thread was started as a comparison between two like-sized midwoofers. You guys have covered it pretty well; I think we all are beating a dead horse with the 8" woofer talk at this point.


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## DC/Hertz

I think Jazzi died


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## AAAAAAA

Might make more sense for a gb6x9. Same cone area as an 8, better beaming potential and would be an easy drop in for many cards.

Those that would do extra work to fit an 8 could do the same for the by 9 but with its added benefit. 

AF already has what looks like a great by 9 that can do what 8's can.


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## Bayboy

I'm pretty sure Erin was giving a hint that things are steering off topic with that so that debate is dead at least on this test thread. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto

gregerst22 said:


> Agree that the market for 8" is a lot smaller. However, there are a number of cars that have factory 8" midbass or can accept one. Toyota Camry's, Infiniti, Lexus, Mazda come to mind I am sure there are many more. Offering an 8" midbass tells me the company takes highend audio seriously and not just catering to the mass market. But the smaller, but very important, Enthusiast market. Like Dynaudio, HAT, Illusion audio, Morel and to some extent JL does.


I'll respond to _gregerst22_ and then let it rest. ...you're such a party pooper, Erin!  Sorry that I helped fuel this fire. :blush: I think that we're all just trying to fill in the time and space until the results are published.  Justin, if you are reading this, there's absolutely no pressure or rush! You've got a life and way more important responsibilities that take priority just like the rest of us.

OK. Greg, while more and more vehicles are in fact being produced with OEM 8" locations, the mounting locations are usually limited to, and designed for VERY shallow, proprietary, low excursion, tiny neo-magnet designs. In addition, they are often in odd locations. Put a high-end, high-output, long-throw 8" woofer in its place and be prepared to do some MAJOR mods to gain any real benefit. Sure, it's great that it is at least possible, and this is a DIY forum and most of us here are up to the challenge, but IMO it is not _always_ necessary _or_ beneficial.

Honestly, I'd love to see SI or AF create a 8" dedicated shallow-mount midbass as well. The more options, the merrier, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Though, if it actually happened, we could then start an entirely new thread, _just like like this one_!  Seriously, other than Scan-Speak, SI and AF would be my preferred manufacturers to do this. 

OK, I'm out, I promise!


----------



## USS Enterprise

bbfoto said:


> As Andy pointed out, any drivers that are playing mid-bass or bass frequencies will be naturally enhanced by corner-loading *+* cabin gain (assuming that the drivers are mounted low & forward in the front doors, or in the kickpanel area).
> 
> This is obviously why a single, relatively small Subwoofer can work so well in the front passenger footwell, although its success is also dependent on the the specific vehicle and where the low frequency nodes end up.


Unfortunately, there are those of us with midbass drivers high in the door, pointing well above kneecap level, that don't benefit from the corner loading or cabin gain, and also have node issues. Plus also have no possible way to mount a larger driver. Due to door design.

I'm watching this thread intently, I really could use a very heavy in presence midbass driver, as I can not benefit from the typical corner loading.

Plus, vehicle is a manual, making kick mounted midbass impossible. Argh. I'm starting to hate my car!


----------



## 18inch

if people want midbass so bad, why not put a shallow 8" sub/midbass and let it act/cross it for midbass region only under the seats... seems like a solid solution to me, wouldnt be optimal but will give u a nice kick regardless

6.5" is much more user friendly and common, 8" seems like to much of a hassle for doors, not to mention the amount of deadening needed, i dont think its worth it, especially when there is some fine choices for 6.5" these days as mentioned in the Title of this thread!


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## Bayboy

As stated earlier, this debate should be for another topic & thread. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## FaintReality

Is Justin still working on this or has things changed since speaking with manufactures behind the scenes?


----------



## Weightless

Why would they change? He's still working on this as far as I know. 

Sometimes life comes before hobbies...as much as it pains us, lol.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

Got my speakers back last week...so he's probably working on getting home


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## Justin Zazzi

I800C0LLECT said:


> Got my speakers back last week...so he's probably working on getting home


This. I just finished my summer internship and had to send all my possessions across the country, then hop again back to school, then unpack everything, sleep, and get ready for the last semester of college. It's been a lot of work and I'm still chipping away at this project. The only thing that has changed is my username and the sad realization that no matter what the "result" is and how I try to present it, folks will still read what they want to read and see what they want to see. So I'm trying to ignore that sad reality and figure out how to present this information in a way that can benefit all the other people that are interested in learning something, rather than confirming some pre-existing bias. It is not easy to do, and I'm honestly less motivated to work on this as much as I was because of that.

And yes I share all of your frustration that this is taking longer than I had hoped. Life has a way of doing that sometimes though, especially for a side project that I'm volunteering my time for. I don't mention this to brag because that's not what I do, but I've done over 20 hours of preparation and hands-on testing and measurements so far and it's difficult to summarize it all. This project has become something much more than I originally thought it would be (in a good way) but that means it has slowed down too. I have also learned a ton about how to do this better next time around, assuming you all enjoy the end result.

So unfortunately it will be finished when it is finished. I hope that will be very soon.


----------



## D34dl1fter

USS Enterprise said:


> Unfortunately, there are those of us with midbass drivers high in the door, pointing well above kneecap level, that don't benefit from the corner loading or cabin gain, and also have node issues. Plus also have no possible way to mount a larger driver. Due to door design.
> 
> I'm watching this thread intently, I really could use a very heavy in presence midbass driver, as I can not benefit from the typical corner loading.
> 
> *Plus, vehicle is a manual, making kick mounted midbass impossible. Argh. I'm starting to hate my car!*



Don't hate, get creative 

My old sq comp car was a 2010 Kia forte koup sx 6 speed manual and it had scan rev 8's in the kicks in 1.25ft3 ported, yes ported 

A few on here have seen the pics (in this very thread justin and gregster22) and also sat in and listened (erinh and skizer)...i didn't have the 12's in the trunk on during comp or demo...output for days 

The daily driver is currently going from 6.5 in doors to 8 inch scan disco in kicks....the car...a 2011 Nissan versa hatchback 6 speed manual...the car is TINY...

It can be done


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## DC/Hertz

Justin Zazzi said:


> This. I just finished my summer internship and had to send all my possessions across the country, then hop again back to school, then unpack everything, sleep, and get ready for the last semester of college. It's been a lot of work and I'm still chipping away at this project. The only thing that has changed is my username and the sad realization that no matter what the "result" is and how I try to present it, folks will still read what they want to read and see what they want to see. So I'm trying to ignore that sad reality and figure out how to present this information in a way that can benefit all the other people that are interested in learning something, rather than confirming some pre-existing bias. It is not easy to do, and I'm honestly less motivated to work on this as much as I was because of that.
> 
> And yes I share all of your frustration that this is taking longer than I had hoped. Life has a way of doing that sometimes though, especially for a side project that I'm volunteering my time for. I don't mention this to brag because that's not what I do, but I've done over 20 hours of preparation and hands-on testing and measurements so far and it's difficult to summarize it all. This project has become something much more than I originally thought it would be (in a good way) but that means it has slowed down too. I have also learned a ton about how to do this better next time around, assuming you all enjoy the end result.
> 
> So unfortunately it will be finished when it is finished. I hope that will be very soon.


I'm going to read between the results lines here. But keep my idea of the results to myself for now.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

This is not fun anymore and I'm letting it show in my posts and reactions here which not never my intention.

I'm going to take a break for a while.


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## dgage

Guys, I haven't done Klippel testing but ErinH has and he mentioned how time consuming the work was, especially to write up a report. And Jazzi had to learn the tool, I'm sure drinking from a fire hose. I've done other stuff and it always takes time. So I understand how difficult and time consuming this can be and don't blame Justin a bit for wanting to take a break. And that's before all of the moving and other life stuff he has going on. So thanks Justin and take your time. This is supposed to be a hobby, not work, though I know when those lines blur.


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## Weightless

I agree. Take your time. 

It's a shame a few ass hats can ruin an excellent experiment.



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## I800C0LLECT

Crunching data and verifying validity across so many drivers takes time. This was one of the big complaints when we used to have a klippel for the site.

Additionally, posting bad information could be very costly for both Justin and the manufacturer. I'd rather he take his time and iron out the details and understand/explain any variations


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## Alrojoca




----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I can understand how much of a nightmare the write-up can be. There's going to be people picking sentences apart trying to twist stuff around in ways they shouldn't. I agree Justin needs to take a break and come back to this project when the time is right. Both of the speakers in this test are great drivers. Until then, we'll leave the light on for ya


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## Niebur3

I remember the stress and time I put in on the MidWoofer and MidRange subjective listening tests. Most people don't understand the time and commitment involved. Then when the results are posted, they ask why you didn't do this or that, not realizing the countless hours you already put in. I even opened it up to any forum member who wanted to help listen was welcome.....had several commit and none show up. They I get backlash for not having more people. It is very tough mentally.

I feel for Justin and hope he stays sane during this tremendous undertaking. Post the results when YOU are ready, not when the forum is ready. And also realize, no matter how much you put into this, it will never be enough for some. This is the end of my rant.


----------



## quickaudi07

I think all of you are going overboard and waiting for results. What about if you see something you doing like about frogs and you like SI are you going to change your mind based on numbers and results? 
I have no clue what you guys are waiting for, both speakers and companies are different in many ways. I went with SI based on word of mouth and by talking to Nick to give them a try. I had audio frogs great speakers, great company and great support... They are just different from each other. I say try Audiofrog and if this is not what you want go with SI or other brand and move on.


The guys that are testing these speakers have a life as well. Once the results are in, than they will be posted... 

If you all have nothing better Todo than look at what's Trump is doing (joke) LoL

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

quickaudi07 said:


> What about if you see something you doing like about frogs and you like SI are you going to change your mind based on numbers and results?


anyone who doesnt is probably biased..


----------



## quickaudi07

SkizeR said:


> anyone who doesnt is probably biased..


You are absolutely crazy lol

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

quickaudi07 said:


> You are absolutely crazy lol
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


Clearly I'm a supporter of the frogs and not a supporter of Nick and his products. If I see something great about the si and something terrible about the frogs, you bet your bottom dollar that opinion will change. I'm not going to be a butthurt child and dislike SI even more because they "best" my preferred product. Thing is, ive already seen data on the frogs. I know theyre good, which is partly why I support them.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

SkizeR said:


> Clearly I'm a supporter of the frogs and not a supporter of Nick and his products. If I see something great about the si and something terrible about the frogs, you bet your bottom dollar that opinion will change. I'm not going to be a butthurt child and dislike SI even more because they "best" my preferred product. Thing is, ive already seen data on the frogs. I know theyre good, which is partly why I support them.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


Who gives a flying **** dude. You support frog because you carry frog... I don't give 2 ****s.. i was expressing my own experience. I never said anything bad about I do or frog...Why u always come and put people down or always have something negative to say... 

Seriously quit being a jack ass for once if u got nothing nice to say, don't say nothing !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

I never said si is best or everyone should get them. I like them and as I stated everyone is different and will like either or.. or look for something different either this or that... Grow up dude.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

quickaudi07 said:


> Who gives a flying **** dude. You support frog because you carry frog... I don't give 2 ****s.. i was expressing my own experience. I never said anything bad about I do or frog...Why u always come and put people down or always have something negative to say...
> 
> Seriously quit being a jack ass for once if u got nothing nice to say, don't say nothing !
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


since you want to make it about my business relations with them..

i dont "support frog because i carry frog".. thats a business model for failure. this is what ****ty shops do that pick the first product line they see that has a high profit margin with no concern for quality so long as they dont always come back broken. your assumption is backwards. I carry AF because i support them. I supported them before i even got the shop i used to work at signed on as a dealer. i went to Andy to become a dealer. That **** isnt just offered to you. The fact that hes even letting me carry them while starting my own business is a damn miracle, and a god send for me and my business. He believes in me, but long after i believed in him and his product. 

also, im not being a *******.. im just pointing something out about what you said....
_
"What about if you see something you doing like about frogs and you like SI are you going to change your mind based on numbers and results? "_

umm.. yes im going to change my mind. thats the ****ing point of this. thats why i spent over 600 dollars of my own money to make this happen. if someone doesnt like what the results are and they dont change their views on the products performance, then they are indeed stubborn, ignorant, and/or a little emotional crybaby, which you are seeming to be the later right now. if the SI does great on the klippel, i will definitely believe IN THE PRODUCT. that doesnt fix his shady business practices of the past, and even some present. only he can fix that


----------



## Niebur3

At least we stopped harassing Justin for a few posts. 

"Frogs are the best and anyone that says otherwise must be a nuthugger!!!!"

"SI's are the best....I replaced all my subs with a pair in my doors and I do 160dB using Flashdance - What a Feeling by Irene Cara (only the old school competitors will get this)

Your turn!!!!


----------



## DC/Hertz

You like what you like. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. They don't pay for my car, I do. Value is important.


----------



## quickaudi07

Niebur3 said:


> At least we stopped harassing Justin for a few posts.
> 
> "Frogs are the best and anyone that says otherwise must be a nuthugger!!!!"
> 
> "SI's are the best....I replaced all my subs with a pair in my doors and I do 160dB using Flashdance - What a Feeling by Irene Cara (only the old school competitors will get this)
> 
> Your turn!!!!


LoL i see things going down and ugly.... 

I wasn't taking turns in anyway, i was just talking naturally about product and my own experience. I guess now days you need to keep it quit and not say anything... 

I also didn't think I said anything bad about anyone or any brand. I support both  I still have AudioFrog GB15 tweeters and I love them!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

The problem pops up when people confuse conversation about preference vs capability. It happens ALL the time around here 

https://media.tenor.com/images/baad50dc8feae2913b4008570a7f7c8d/tenor.gif


----------



## Bayboy

Ummmn... has anyone forgotten that the two products are in different price tiers? These arguments are a bit off base beyond test measurements which have not been posted yet. Calm down people. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox

In some ways, I love the DIY Stereo forum and everyone here knowledge and opinions. I love passion for a hobby but in other ways, I think everyone here needs prozac.

My simple question is how can a lot of threads on DIY Stereo forums turn into a pissing match? On other car forums that I am a member of this doesn't happen nearly as much.


----------



## Bayboy

KillerBox said:


> In some ways, I love the DIY Stereo forum and everyone here knowledge and opinions. I love passion for a hobby but in other ways, I think everyone here needs prozac.
> 
> My simple question is how can a lot of threads on DIY Stereo forums turn into a pissing match? On other car forums that I am a member of this doesn't happen nearly as much.


Too much pride, competitiveness, and personal stake. I'm a frugal hobbyist, but I am also grounded in knowing that what I decide to use probably isn't going to be the best in comparison to heavier hitters. I don't compete so that may have a lot to do with it. I enjoy the challenge of doing the most with the least obtained though there is limits. However, once you get outside of that, the troubles begin and the fun ends. That is not to say that buying higher priced gear is wrong, rather do it for yourself and not simply to outdo others. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

Everyone, chill out. We don't need every $.02 you have to offer. If your reply will not move the thread forward then practice self control and move on. If you have to 'get it out of your system' then type up the reply. Don't submit the reply. Cancel and walk away. I promise, you'll be OK and the forum will be fine without your unnecessary comment.




Now, back to the ACTUAL TOPIC...


I was at the SQology show last month in Atlanta and hung out with Nick Lemmons (SI owner) a good bit. I also got a demo of Nick's VW - which he was competing with and using only a 2-way with his TM65 mkii TM25 tweeter. With that said, here’s a mix of my subjective/objective thoughts: 

Nick said he used a high-pass at 20hz/24dB on his tm65’s to protect the drivers just in case someone got crazy… after all, they’re not subwoofers. I don’t recall what his low-pass was set at but given it was mating to the TM25 tweeter I assume the crossover for the two was in 1-2khz region. Before I start, again, I want to reiterate there was no subwoofer in play here (verified myself), and I was listening to the door woofers playing down to 20hz. Having said all of that … I was genuinely surprised at the output Nick’s system had below the typical midbass range. I didn’t expect it; as I increased the output I never got the indication the woofers were going to fail or reach mechanical limits. Granted, I wasn’t playing sub-sonic information and I wasn’t wailing on the system but the output was plenty sufficient to do a mini-‘stress test’ of these drivers. On the upper end I didn’t hear anything that couldn’t be attributed to just fine tuning the system further with DSP. There wasn’t any absolutely-driver-caused-distortion that I could hear at the higher regions of the response, where the tweeter would have then taken over. I imagine crossed within typical midbass limits in the 50-80hz region (depending on your output desires) they would perform adequately for anyone needing a midbass/midrange driver of its size. 
This thing is small. Maybe it's that I've grown accustomed to larger midbass drivers (8 and 10 inch variety) but holding the driver in my hand, but after hearing the car and the output it had with just this driver in the doors, it’s surprising to me how little the driver is. Paint me impressed. 
Another thing I thought was cool was the built in ‘splash guard’. Nick said he had discussed it before but I guess I just missed it and in case you guys missed it as well, I wanted to note it. If you look at the pictures below you’ll see the driver has a metal ring that shields the cone/suspension from the elements when used in a door install. This shield is only on one half of the driver; the other half is open like a normal driver basket would be.



I feel it needs to be said: I’ve not yet heard a system with the GB60 (at least, not in the same application) so I can’t comment on the performance there. And I’m not saying the tm65 would fare better than the GB60 in a particular application (I’ll leave that up to the potential buyers). All I am saying is what I heard and saw that weekend gave me enough confidence to recommend Nick’s drivers in the same way I would recommend Andy’s drivers based on the technical information Andy has provided. 

Maybe once Justin is able to do so, the data will be provided and we can all have a more meaningful discussion on the pros/cons of each of these two drivers.






Pictures mentioned in my reply above...















"Normal" (non-shield side):














"Shielded" side:


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Erin, thanks for the feedback.

I heard his demo as well and any complaints about the system didn't come across as speaker performance related; I agree with everything you said. I can say with confidence that I'd purchase his mids without feeling I lost anything vs the GB60.

Additionally, I don't think anybody would lose mid bass switching from a 3 way to these... Unless you drive a Cobalt that plays concert levels


----------



## ErinH

And since I mentioned size of the SI, it’s fair to do a comparison using Andy and Nick’s provided dimensions:

*TM65 mkii, GB60*
*Mounting Depth (mm):* 61, 69.3 
*Cutout Diameter (mm):* 143, 128	
*Overall Diameter (mm):* 167, 160 (171 w/mounting tabs)	
*Sd (cm^2):* 136.9, 122.7


----------



## Dan750iL

I800C0LLECT said:


> ... Unless you drive a Cobalt that plays concert levels


LMAO. I know that guy!


----------



## quickaudi07

ErinH your awesome !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## drop1

Ive played the gb's with no crossover at all up to about 100db.
They can pur out a surprising level of information down low as well with well made music. I run them crossed at 80 with a 12db slope because i listen to a lot of very bass heavy dance. Playing that without a crossover at volume would be hard on any mid i believe.


----------



## quickaudi07

At this moment I wont say much and just relax and wait for results when they get in... 

Also I really care less whats better at what point, what brakes or runs out of the seen faster than other... I just like my system the way it is... with few up coming changes lol as always.. this damn hobby will never stop!


----------



## TerryGreen5986

It’s all subjective. To someone else, one may sound better, to someone else...the opposite, REGARDLESS of tests/data. 

Unless you’re competing it honestly doesn’t matter. When I was going to Meets, it mattered more because I was comparing against others’ setups. 

Once I stopped that and just started enjoying my music, it didn’t matter what anyone else’s car sounded like cuz I don’t hear theirs....I hear mine. 

I’m willing to bet that whether someone went with the GB’s or SI’s....after some tuning they wouldn’t regret their decision either way ??*♂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Weightless

I800C0LLECT said:


> Unless you drive a Cobalt that plays concert levels


Lol.

I think my hair is still standing straight back after hearing it. 

It was a sad, sad drive home with my factory system listening to those systems that day...



Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Alain93

TerryGreen5986 said:


> It’s all subjective. To someone else, one may sound better, to someone else...the opposite, REGARDLESS of tests/data.


For some, good test/data sound better no matter what  

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Alrojoca

quickaudi07 said:


> At this moment I wont say much and just relax


----------



## Swaglife81

We all know both drivers are top notch. Wouldn't a fair comparison be a TM2 vs GS60 since they are in the same price range. Audiofrog is up there like more than double the price of SI as we know. To me though the comparison is like a Corvette Z06 to a Lamborghini Aventador. Yeah both are fast but not in the same league. 

I'm still anxiously waiting results but we know the GB is a king in the SQ world.


----------



## quickaudi07

Alrojoca said:


>




It actually sounds bad ass in my car, and the extra video does its thing


----------



## quickaudi07

Swaglife81 said:


> We all know both drivers are top notch. Wouldn't a fair comparison be a TM2 vs GS60 since they are in the same price range. Audiofrog is up there like more than double the price of SI as we know. To me though the comparison is like a Corvette Z06 to a Lamborghini Aventador. Yeah both are fast but not in the same league.
> 
> I'm still anxiously waiting results but we know the GB is a king in the SQ world.


Im quiet eager to see what both drivers all about. 

What does SQ really stand for, I hear this all the time, sq this, sq that... 

If both drivers sound clean doing what they are doing, does that mean SQ ?

I know both drivers will do very well on the graph, I know for a fact that GB could play higher than SI and thats been proven and has been seen on the paper... 

All in all, at the end of the day, I'm no pro. this is my hobby as many of on here... and at the end of the day, is what we want out of our system, is what we want to hear, and what we want to achieve... everyone has a different ear, what will sound SQ or wonderful, may sound totally different to others.


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## Alrojoca

????

Why not, I like it. Those lyrics and everything else. 

" hey dude you are so uncool, but hey that's all right. Like there's no need to get uptight. My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
We are on an amazing flight in space."


----------



## quickaudi07

This thread got quiet 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## TerryGreen5986

quickaudi07 said:


> Im quiet eager to see what both drivers all about.
> 
> 
> 
> What does SQ really stand for, I hear this all the time, sq this, sq that...
> 
> 
> 
> If both drivers sound clean doing what they are doing, does that mean SQ ?
> 
> 
> 
> I know both drivers will do very well on the graph, I know for a fact that GB could play higher than SI and thats been proven and has been seen on the paper...
> 
> 
> 
> All in all, at the end of the day, I'm no pro. this is my hobby as many of on here... and at the end of the day, is what we want out of our system, is what we want to hear, and what we want to achieve... everyone has a different ear, what will sound SQ or wonderful, may sound totally different to others.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Swaglife81

I'm still waiting for results but I love seeing drivers tested


----------



## quickaudi07

Well the results are in, but they are not posted yet... I think
LoL

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## disconnected

The anticipation is worth.


----------



## disconnected

On Amazon, I placed an order for a pair of SI TM2 along with a 6.5" FAST rings and Speaker Gasketing Tape. I could not wait.


----------



## TerryGreen5986

Results? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

disconnected said:


> On Amazon, I placed an order for a pair of SI TM2 along with a 6.5" FAST rings and Speaker Gasketing Tape. I could not wait.


Good, let them brake in for the first few hours, than open them lose and you will see why I like them 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Mario,

Does the sound change after they are broken in? My friend just got his TM 65 installed and I was curious as to what he should expect?


----------



## theothermike

impatiently taps fingers like mr burns from the simpsons


----------



## Arete

I'll pledge $5 to Patreon created by the person doing the testing if that'll help move things along. Might even do 10.


----------



## GEM592

It's a lopsided comparison anyway. The GB60s are a little better, but cost alot more. /thread.


----------



## Weightless

Im not sure that's Justins intention of doing this. 

From my understanding, this is mostly coming from a place of understanding driver performance based on design compromises. Not battling the two to see who the victor will be.
(Even though a lot of people don't/won't see it that way)

I'm excited to see the results, especially stacked up against the mystery budget speaker. 

Take your time, man. We'll be here with the lights on.



Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## Alrojoca




----------



## Iamsecond

What will be interesting about all of this is how the info will be used and/or twisted to make an argument and it will be used to say either one is superior. With the advent of dsp/extensive eq capabilities most speakers can me massaged into submission. Some will argue about abilities to play higher or lower than others but again crossover points and sound manipulation techniques can make an "inferior speaker" compared to another speaker, sound great. I anticipate many arguments arising from this test and again the truth of the matter is either will probably get the job done, but it depends on what people are willing to spend.


----------



## dgage

I agree. I’m of the opinion that both drivers are great. Besides the price difference, we know that one works a little better down low and the other one works a little better above 2500Hz (basing this on anecdotal owner evidence). Those are simply due to design decisions and doesn’t take away that both are great drivers. And owners of both have posted on DIYMA and seem to be very happy indeed. To me, arguing is moot over which is better unless we’re talking specific usage scenarios.


----------



## quickaudi07

High Resolution Audio said:


> Mario,
> 
> Does the sound change after they are broken in? My friend just got his TM 65 installed and I was curious as to what he should expect?


Well I'm known for burning and putting to much power on drivers.. Personally, I had them playing starting from 71hz @24 db, When I talked to Nick and told him my high pass and so on.. he started to laugh, he goes you need to open them up... I said i dont want to burn them up... 

Well the same day I took my happy behind and dropped them to 60hz @ 24 db.. well they sounded better, but by looking at xmax and seeing what these could do, I knew there is more too it...

Nick told me to gently which he was very specific about it, turn up the volume and let them play full range... Magic has hit me... these sounded fantastic... 

After that I took them and dropped them to 12db slope from 60hz to [email protected] ... and they have been like that since than.... they play so nice and smooth and the funny part is, everything blends so well, I sometimes forget to turn up my sub stage  

Tell him not to be afraid but not go crazy... even though they are getting 200 w rms of power to each side... and if I blow them, than i get a chance to put them on my wall of burning speakers  yeay!


----------



## bilbo6209

any update on the data? I already have a pair of tm65 v2's in hand but am curious on the outcome of the testing


----------



## Iamsecond

quickaudi07 said:


> Well I'm known for burning and putting to much power on drivers.. Personally, I had them playing starting from 71hz @24 db, When I talked to Nick and told him my high pass and so on.. he started to laugh, he goes you need to open them up... I said i dont want to burn them up...
> 
> Well the same day I took my happy behind and dropped them to 60hz @ 24 db.. well they sounded better, but by looking at xmax and seeing what these could do, I knew there is more too it...


Nick moved mine down to 50hz with a 48db cross. I moved them on down to 30. Granted they will not replace subs but man they sound sweet and give you a nice leg message and now I have to figure out how to deaden the stupid rattling doors I never had before. I have 150ish on each one and the other night after we got out of our Doctorate seminars I parked and just sat in the runner with my eyes closed listening and it was an awesome time to relax and I was amazed at the drum impact and sound from Guns and Roses November rain, Yesterdays, and Estranged. Yeah, i listened for 30 minutes 2 three song and didn't repeat.


----------



## quickaudi07

Awesome experience I see. Yes these little suckers do very well. I don't remember I was that impressed with 6.5 drivers ever.. I played lots of different music they just put smile on my face. When I think they will give me hard time.. and to me I don't get that I feel like they want more... But I'm at the point where I can't hear myself or anything when I jam out and that's more than enough. I'm giving them 220+

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

I tried my GB60’s at 12db slopes LR2 @ 80hz.. It was more than my well sealed and treated doors could take. I had to back them up to 90hz, and some judicial EQ work to make sure they were somewhat matching acoustically to a 12db slope. They really wanted to throw energy in the 40-60hz region. 

The experiment was to see how sub blending would go with a 12db slope verses 24 or 36. So far I’m highly pleased. Clean midbass presence down into the 50-60 range without strain that I can tell. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## quickaudi07

Babs said:


> I tried my GB60’s at 12db slopes LR2 @ 80hz.. It was more than my well sealed and treated doors could take. I had to back them up to 90hz, and some judicial EQ work to make sure they were somewhat matching acoustically to a 12db slope. They really wanted to throw energy in the 40-60hz region.
> 
> The experiment was to see how sub blending would go with a 12db slope verses 24 or 36. So far I’m highly pleased. Clean midbass presence down into the 50-60 range without strain that I can tell.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's for sure unique set of speakers. I liked my set very much. I just like trying different things and since I had Scans 7" mids in my previous car. I wanted the same experience.. so I had to look for something different. But trying new things is fun at least to me. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## TerryGreen5986

*sigh* one day 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## disconnected

Please and Thank you.


----------



## DC/Hertz

I’m starting to think the SI destroyed the frogs. That’s why we haven’t seen anything. 

Or he died


----------



## SkizeR

DC/Hertz said:


> I’m starting to think the SI destroyed the frogs. That’s why we haven’t seen anything.
> 
> Or he died


To be honest, I think it's the other way around. He started getting annoyed at me and probably didn't want to give me satisfaction 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## dcfis

Still waiting on my speakers to be sent


----------



## SkizeR

dcfis said:


> Still waiting on my speakers to be sent


Wait.. you didn't even get yours back?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## naiku

Hmm I can understand being busy, but no posts since the middle of August and some guys who sent in speakers for testing and have not gotten them back is a whole different story.

Hopefully it's nothing, but I would have wanted my speakers back by now. Completed testing results or not.


----------



## Niebur3

Hmmmmm, maybe I should do another really small Shoot out test


----------



## SkizeR

Niebur3 said:


> Hmmmmm, maybe I should do another really small Shoot out test


personally, im not a fan of subjective tests. but it could be interesting.


----------



## Niebur3

SkizeR said:


> Niebur3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm, maybe I should do another really small Shoot out test
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> personally, im not a fan of subjective tests. but it could be interesting.
Click to expand...

I hear ya. I just don't know if we will ever see the klippel results/writeup. It's not an easy thing to do.


----------



## TerryGreen5986

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Alrojoca

bilbo6209 said:


> any update on the data? I already have a pair of tm65 v2's in hand but am curious on the outcome of the testing


----------



## 156546

Here are the GB60 Kilppel measurements we took at the factory. 





































As you can see above, distortion is ridiculously low--on par or better than many well regarded and expensive high end home drivers. 

You can also see that both the motor and the suspension are really well balanced. 

Finally, the Le is crazy low, thanks to a copper polepiece cap. The reason that isn't balanced is because the cap doesn't expend outward (above the pole piece). The overall Le value is so low already that the imbalance isn't a contributor to even order distortion in any important amount. 

The GB60 also includes an aluminum shorting ring at the base of the pole. 

Here's an exploded CAD drawing.


----------



## 156546

Geex...no links. Anyone know how to link on this forum? I included links to a one drive folder, but they didn't work.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

GotFrogs said:


> Geex...no links. Anyone know how to link on this forum? I included links to a one drive folder, but they didn't work.


Through desktop computer or phone?

Phone test ***

[Img="https://1drv.ms/i/s!AtgzBEgCdB-IriPH3woJROKF3YlW.jpg"]https://1drv.ms/i/s!AtgzBEgCdB-IriPH3woJROKF3YlW.jpg[/img]


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I'm not able to get the image to show but the links work


----------



## rob feature

GotFrogs said:


> Geex...no links. Anyone know how to link on this forum? I included links to a one drive folder, but they didn't work.


Image tags "







" need an extension to work - ex .jpg. The links will show up if you use "url /url" in the brackets. Or just use the link button above.

edit 


https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWd9aBJU6hV6-CnG

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWkLKaGGXzaA-Gtb

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWb6Tx3UqIo0Ig9N

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWgoe7htSKgMF_XC


----------



## Holmz

GotFrogs said:


> Here are the GB60 Kilppel measurements we took at the factory.
> 
> https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWd9aBJU6hV6-CnG
> 
> https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWkLKaGGXzaA-Gtb
> 
> https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWb6Tx3UqIo0Ig9N
> 
> https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWgoe7htSKgMF_XC
> 
> As you can see above, distortion is ridiculously low--on par or better than many well regarded and expensive high end home drivers.
> 
> You can also see that both the motor and the suspension are really well balanced.
> 
> Finally, the Le is crazy low, thanks to a copper polepiece cap. The reason that isn't balanced is because the cap doesn't expend outward (above the pole piece). The overall Le value is so low already that the imbalance isn't a contributor to even order distortion in any important amount.
> 
> The GB60 also includes an aluminum shorting ring at the base of the pole.
> 
> Here's an exploded CAD drawing.
> 
> https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqpsFDKymIjeoWqUt24qxsUnZbUG


Test.


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## 156546

Holmz said:


> Test.



Thanks. Good enough.


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## Electrodynamic

rob feature said:


> Image tags "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> " need an extension to work - ex .jpg. The links will show up if you use "url /url" in the brackets. Or just use the link button above.
> 
> edit



We specify our Xmax as 70% BL and here is our BL curve on our TM65 mkII taken at 82% BL:


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## dvboy

Looks like this thread is going nowhere.Feel bad for the ones who went to the effort and expense of shipping out their equipment with nothing to show for it.


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## Weightless

Give it time. I don't regret sending my mids in. 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

For what it's worth...I got my GB60s back VERY quickly. Communication was on point the entire time.


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## disconnected

Hello.


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## TerryGreen5986

I800C0LLECT said:


> For what it's worth...I got my GB60s back VERY quickly. Communication was on point the entire time.




What went wrong with em


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

TerryGreen5986 said:


> What went wrong with em
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nothing at all. He used them in the test


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## Miguel mac

I wait results for klipel


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## quickaudi07

Miguel mac said:


> I wait results for klipel


Good luck 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## JH1973

Ok,I have secretly been coveting this thread waiting for the results as I'm a proud owner of a pair of SI's.........


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## TerryGreen5986

Lol I think it’s a lost cause. Results are: can’t go wrong with either driver! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ManBearPig

I have a brand new set of SI's waiting to be used, now just need an amp for them


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## gumbeelee

I have used both the GB60 and SI TM2, I really liked both, but I still like my Scan 18wu/4741t the best of any midbass I have used....I will say this, the GB60 sound very similar to my Scans


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Miguel mac

gumbeelee said:


> I have used both the GB60 and SI TM2, I really liked both, but I still like my Scan 18wu/4741t the best of any midbass I have used....I will say this, the GB60 sound very similar to my Scans
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You need used dyn 17w75-04. I have ones but no sold.


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## Miguel mac

quickaudi07 said:


> Miguel mac said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wait results for klipel
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

wait i seated...? LOL


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## miniSQ

Miguel mac said:


> You need used dyn 17w75-04. I have ones but no sold.


best.driver.ever.


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## JH1973

ManBearPig said:


> I have a brand new set of SI's waiting to be used, now just need an amp for them


That's just wrong,those things need some voltage!!


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## Miguel mac

This way of proceeding leaves both brands in a bad place.


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## Weightless

Miguel mac said:


> This way of proceeding leaves both brands in a bad place.


Why is that? This test was not sanctioned by the manufacturers. 

How are either affected? 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

gumbeelee said:


> I have used both the GB60 and SI TM2, I really liked both, but I still like my Scan 18wu/4741t the best of any midbass I have used....I will say this, the GB60 sound very similar to my Scans
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You might be right, but Sans have way much more output. In midbass area as i had both. but again every tuning is different and settings of each driver. 

I like them all 3 in this case, Scans, SI, and GB, all are great companies and great designed speakers for different aspect of user preference.


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## gumbeelee

quickaudi07 said:


> You might be right, but Sans have way much more output. In midbass area as i had both. but again every tuning is different and settings of each driver.
> 
> 
> 
> I like them all 3 in this case, Scans, SI, and GB, all are great companies and great designed speakers for different aspect of user preference.




Yes the Scans definately have way more output, and all 3 companies makr damn good speakers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TerryGreen5986

Hmm...I like output. Maybe I need to try these Scans! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Electrodynamic

quickaudi07 said:


> You might be right, but Sans have way much more output. In midbass area as i had both. but again every tuning is different and settings of each driver.
> 
> I like them all 3 in this case, Scans, SI, and GB, all are great companies and great designed speakers for different aspect of user preference.


Which midbass drivers are you using now?


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## SkizeR

Electrodynamic said:


> Which midbass drivers are you using now?


trick question. he swapped em before he finished the first song


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## quickaudi07

You guys are funny. I'm Using SI mid bass speakers, 2 reasons. 150$ per driver which can't be beat, 2 no modifications needed to my doors and yea #3 they are awesome..

Currently have no sub in my car and I'm loving them, played some good tunes and it was shaking the whole car.. holy crap...! 

50hz @12 DB! Up to [email protected]
Simply amazing 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## JH1973

quickaudi07 said:


> You guys are funny. I'm Using SI mid bass speakers, 2 reasons. 150$ per driver which can't be beat, 2 no modifications needed to my doors and yea #3 they are awesome..
> 
> Currently have no sub in my car and I'm loving them, played some good tunes and it was shaking the whole car.. holy crap...!
> 
> 50hz @12 DB! Up to [email protected]
> Simply amazing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


Yup,the mid bass is amazing.I'm still stunned I only paid $150 each for these.The even better part is how well they do in a 2-way.They play plenty high enough with the right tweeter (mine are 1.1" CDT).Highly satisfied with these drivers.


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## Electrodynamic

quickaudi07 said:


> You might be right, but Sans have way much more output. In midbass area as i had both. but again every tuning is different and settings of each driver.
> 
> I like them all 3 in this case, Scans, SI, and GB, all are great companies and great designed speakers for different aspect of user preference.





SkizeR said:


> trick question. he swapped em before he finished the first song





quickaudi07 said:


> You guys are funny. I'm Using SI mid bass speakers, 2 reasons. 150$ per driver which can't be beat, 2 no modifications needed to my doors and yea #3 they are awesome..
> 
> Currently have no sub in my car and I'm loving them, played some good tunes and it was shaking the whole car.. holy crap...!
> 
> 50hz @12 DB! Up to [email protected]
> Simply amazing
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


Why don't you guys ask each other? skizer, apparently quickaudi07 only played half a song according to you. Is that true @quickaudi07?


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## SkizeR

Electrodynamic said:


> Why don't you guys ask each other? skizer, apparently quickaudi07 only played half a song according to you. Is that true @quickaudi07?


its a joke about how often he swaps equipment. was the sarcasm hard to pick up on?


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## GEM592

Touche, we're all friends here. What's a little sarcasm between forum members?


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## Dan750iL

SkizeR said:


> its a joke about how often he swaps equipment. was the sarcasm hard to pick up on?


The internet has a robust sarcastic tone filter. I've pissed more than a few people off learning that lesson.


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## rton20s




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## quickaudi07

I get picked on all the damn time because I switch my gear left and right. And that's ok, I like to test waters... Just like going to a dealer and testing cars. It's just alot cheaper with speakers. 

So I don't care if anyone gives me hard time lol but there is a reason why I switch to SI and never looked back.. for the same reason I'm done with with BS. I enjoy them and will enjoy them... 

It's my money spend and I'll do what I want with it..  

But SI are staying in my car, that's for damn sure 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

This is a quiet an entertaining to see how much people pay attention of how many times I switch gear around or add. 

I honestly didn't know I'm that popular among some people.... LoL









Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## 156546

Seems like most of you now have the technical information you were after. I've posted our Klippel measurements and Nick has posted his.


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## truckguy

I appreciate the information from the manufacturers but people donated drivers for this test. Some helped pay for the shipping costs. We were expecting some sort of results for what we paid or put into the project. Instead Justin Jazzi flakes out for some reason and we get nothing. We ended up financing his school/intern project. He got his results and testing experience. We get nothing in return. 

I miss ErinH’s MedleyMusings tests and his thoughts after he tested individual drivers. That’s what I chipped in for with this project but Jazzi didn’t hold his end of the bargain. We should get a refund from Jazzi.


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## quickaudi07

I knew this would be a WAR!


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## TerryGreen5986

A pointless, no results, one lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LostnEye

Yes, those of you who donated fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well-known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.


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## truckguy

LostnEye said:


> Yes, those of you who donated fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well-known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.


I love that movie!


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## Niebur3

Justin posted the results.....

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udiofrog-gb60-stereo-integrity-tm65-mkii.html


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## Naptownsoldier1488

Awsome gb60 for the win love my pair very nice write up


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## quickaudi07

Naptownsoldier1488 said:


> Awsome gb60 for the win love my pair very nice write up


Everyone has their taste in music and sound reproduction. 

My ears belong to SI 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## dsquared

...and that’s coming from s guy who had the GBs.


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## unix_usr

Awesome work man - great read. Super curious how the si tm65 (mk one) would have fit in this list... The GB60 is on my list, but also on the list of "wifey will kill me if i spend that much more"... interesting perspective on performance though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

dsquared said:


> ...and that’s coming from s guy who had the GBs.


Just a personal taste, nothing against GB.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Naptownsoldier1488

Your taste is just that nothing wrong with u liking the si more but the gb60 clearly shows to have a lower fs more xmax and a better balanced motor higher sensitivity less power compression and a smoother more extended frequency response maybe the set u had was a dud or maybe install or tune I've had both and much prefer the gb60 even be for the results a lot of people prefer a little distortion like I said nothing wrong with that it's your system to enjoy but true sound quality is acurate reproduction of source and i think the data backs that up in favor of the gb60


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## benny z

i've tuned two cars with gb60 and two cars with tm65 (a mk1 & a mk2, I think).

one audiofrog car was a simple 2-way gb60 + tweeter and one was a 3-way w/ gb60 as midbass only.

likewise, one stereo integrity setup used it as just midbass in a 3-way while the other was a simple 2-way to tweeter.

in each of these vehicles I was happy with the performance of the driver. both did what I needed and expected them to do with acceptable results to me and the owners of the vehicles.

in both cases I preferred the results from the midbass application in a 3-way set, but that's to be expected.


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## I800C0LLECT

The mk2 was never designed to compete with the GB60. It does a phenomenal job if you use it within it's design constraints. Personally, I wouldn't run it below 70Hz and I'd be certain to have a low crossed tweeter in a 2-way. However, that's exactly what I would do with the GB60 as well. I may need to use more EQ with the MK2 but I promise most wouldn't pick them in a blind test.

When pushed to extreme limits the MK2 will give out. But what speaker wouldn't? This isn't a pissing contest. If you use each one as designed they'll be phenomenal. As for any speaker...application is key.


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## TerryGreen5986

I think the real question here is.......for the price difference.......is it worth paying the extra hundreds of dollars for whatever the GB60 does better. 

And I dunno the answer. To each his own 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bayboy

Yes it is worth it to some, perhaps many, because that's pretty much how this whole hobby works. Money doesn't guarantee performance, but you do pay more and considerably so for the extra advantages. If something a little lesser will satisfy you, then that's a good thing. If you need that next edge regardless of how little it may be or is perceived, then at least it's available. Nothing wrong with that. That edge is very important to many that compete or are very particular about their setup

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Dan750iL

TerryGreen5986 said:


> I think the real question here is.......for the price difference.......is it worth paying the extra hundreds of dollars for whatever the GB60 does better.
> 
> And I dunno the answer. To each his own
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In a 3 way setup probably not. At least not for me. In a 2 way I may have to give it a lot of thought.


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## ErinH

Bayboy said:


> Yes it is worth it to some, perhaps many, because *that's pretty much how this whole hobby works*. Money doesn't guarantee performance, but you do pay more and considerably so for the extra advantages. If something a little lesser will satisfy you, then that's a good thing. If you need that next edge regardless of how little it may be or is perceived, then at least it's available.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

This hobby is all about tradeoffs. Budget, performance, sanity...

This test data is a shining example of that. The considerably lower priced product may not perform as well in some aspects but in other areas it may be the exact solution for a problem. On the other hand, the higher priced product may fit a need that other lower priced products simply do not.


----------



## Locomotive Tech

ErinH said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> This hobby is all about tradeoffs. Budget, performance, *sanity...*
> 
> This test data is a shining example of that. *The considerably lower priced product may not perform as well in some aspects but in other areas it may be the exact solution for a problem. On the other hand, the higher priced product may fit a need that other lower priced products simply do not.*


Along with Bayboy's post, this may be the most sane and rational explanation for buying gear I have ever heard. No product bashing, no, this one is better look at the response chart. 

Thanks to all who kept this thread on track and allowing those of us who cannot drop a lot of cash on the "best gear", feel a little better about themselves. I recenly bought a pair of TM65 Mk1s and to me they are the best mids I have ever owned. I have never heard the GB60 so I can't speak on it.


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## KillerBox

I appreciate the time and effort it took to do the tests! 

My question for our budget minded users would be how would the SI TM2 vs GS60 be? Because I think the AudioFrog GS60 are $250 a pair?


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## Holmz

KillerBox said:


> I appreciate the time and effort it took to do the tests!
> 
> My question for our budget minded users would be how would the SI TM2 vs GS60 be? Because I think the AudioFrog GS60 are $250 a pair?


What metrics would tell you how they compare? (Other than £€¥$)

Or would it be people opining on the sound of each?


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## Arete

KillerBox said:


> I appreciate the time and effort it took to do the tests!
> 
> My question for our budget minded users would be how would the SI TM2 vs GS60 be? Because I think the AudioFrog GS60 are $250 a pair?


I’d opt for the Audiofrog. The SI is best used as a midbass with a separate mid which these tests confirmed. I think SI is releasing a midrange to go with it.


----------



## quickaudi07

Here it is  was posted on FB yesterday!









Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


----------



## quality_sound

I'd likely use the AF over the SI. Not because it's "better", but because it has more volume capability and I typically hammer my midbass drivers pretty hard. That's it. I have no use for extended midrange nor a low Fs. I NEVER cross below 80Hz and I want a midbass driver, not a small sub in my door. If the SI had the output capability of the AF, I'd much rather spend less, but it doesn't.


----------



## quickaudi07

quality_sound said:


> I'd likely use the AF over the SI. Not because it's "better", but because it has more volume capability and I typically hammer my midbass drivers pretty hard. That's it. I have no use for extended midrange nor a low Fs. I NEVER cross below 80Hz and I want a midbass driver, not a small sub in my door. If the SI had the output capability of the AF, I'd much rather spend less, but it doesn't.


Very simple and straight to the point explanation on what user likes  

SI isn't for everyone, and I'm sure that goes for AF. 

I like them both and they vary in so many ways from each other.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## Electrodynamic

quality_sound said:


> I'd likely use the AF over the SI. Not because it's "better", but because it has more volume capability and I typically hammer my midbass drivers pretty hard. That's it. I have no use for extended midrange nor a low Fs. I NEVER cross below 80Hz and I want a midbass driver, not a small sub in my door. If the SI had the output capability of the AF, I'd much rather spend less, but it doesn't.


How does the AF have more "volume capacity" than the SI? With 100 watts of power per driver the theoretical response plots are almost the same (both SPL and F3's) in a typical door cavity/IB alignment using Jazzi's Klippel data measurements. Both drivers have their positives and negatives and the AF is a beyond formidable adversary but between 80 hz and 300 Hz there is around a 1.5 dB difference between the two drivers for dedicated midbass. Thanks. 












quickaudi07 said:


> Very simple and straight to the point explanation on what user likes
> 
> SI isn't for everyone, and I'm sure that goes for AF.
> 
> I like them both and they vary in so many ways from each other.


^ And the latter is coming from a user that went from AF's to SI's. If the output capacity was signifcantly lower I'm pretty sure this forum would have heard about it from quickaudio by now.


----------



## GEM592

Threadstarter was banned, but yet it goes on. Where is one of those political or religious off-topic threads right now?


----------



## dcfis

So, that copper 3.5 looks great but for all that is holy can someone make a flangeless mount system so a ring of 5-8 screws street all you see?


----------



## quality_sound

Electrodynamic said:


> How does the AF have more "volume capacity" than the SI? With 100 watts of power per driver the theoretical response plots are almost the same (both SPL and F3's) in a typical door cavity/IB alignment using Jazzi's Klippel data measurements. Both drivers have their positives and negatives and the AF is a beyond formidable adversary but between 80 hz and 300 Hz there is around a 1.5 dB difference between the two drivers for dedicated midbass. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ And the latter is coming from a user that went from AF's to SI's. If the output capacity was signifcantly lower I'm pretty sure this forum would have heard about it from quickaudio by now.




You said it yourself, Nick. A decibel and a half more output from 80-300Hz. Is that a LOT of difference? No, but it IS more “volume capacity.” 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Arete

quality_sound said:


> You said it yourself, Nick. A decibel and a half more output from 80-300Hz. Is that a LOT of difference? No, but it IS more “volume capacity.”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wouldn’t this be relevant as well? I figure if crossed at or above 80hz getting to this level of excursion would be unlikely... or would it?


----------



## quality_sound

Arete said:


> Wouldn’t this be relevant as well? I figure if crossed at or above 80hz getting to this level of excursion would be unlikely... or would it?




It would depend on things like program material, volume, install, tune, etc. Midbass drivers typically see the most abuse and having one that stays cooler and needs less power is never bad. 

That’s not to say I don’t love SI gear. I still have two BM MkIVs BNIB. This is also academic for me because if I can make a ZR800 for I won’t use either of these drivers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

