# What are your best ways to bring up a soundstage?



## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

My system sounds good now ,nice clean natural sounding but the stage height is about at my h/u hieght in my 2003 ram 1500 reg cab.I am looking for some suggestions on how to raise the stage to at least top of the dash hopefully to the middle of the windshield.I am open to anything ,i want it to seem like midgets are performing on my dash

My front stage consists of the following

h/u : kenwood kdcx993

crossover/eq: arc audio idx eqx combo

mid bass: exodus anarchy 6.5's 100watts rms @4ohms mounted in nicely sealed doors

mids: xtant/morel xsc 4" 100watts rms @ 4ohms mounted in kick panels

highs : xtant /morel xsc 1.5" 50 watts rms @ 4 ohms mounted in kick panels

Some thoughts ive had already: add tweeters to dashboard facing each other.

One tweeter or full range mounted in the center of dash in factory hole

2 full ranges mounted in factory holes near windshield.

Let me know what you have done to bring up your sound stage!!!






one centered tweet or full range in the dash factory hole.


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## bboyvek (Dec 16, 2008)

what are your crossover points?


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## bafukie (Nov 23, 2007)

^ what he said... either u physically move the tweeter higher or u play around with the x-over point


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

C


bboyvek said:


> what are your crossover points?



I don't know exactly, I had my truck tuned at a pro shop . I believe my tweets take over @ 2500 hz. My mids play from300 - 2500 hz and mid bass 80 - 300 hz. Do I need to cross my tweets higher?


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## bboyvek (Dec 16, 2008)

You should write down your current setting and then you start playing with your crossover points (It wont cost you anything anyway). Crossing you tweets higher will help to some extend (or it may not), i suggest you try crossing them at 4k or higher if possible.


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

bboyvek said:


> You should write down your current setting and then you start playing with your crossover points (It wont cost you anything anyway). Crossing you tweets higher will help to some extend (or it may not), i suggest you try crossing them at 4k or higher if possible.


My only concern with crossing my tweeter higher is that ,there will then be a gap between my mid and tweeter in frequency. My mid has a passive crossover lp'd @ 2500 hz in line with it. Should I remove this and let it roll off naturally?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Move the tweeter and/or mid higher. Your ankles are deaf.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

You can equalize to raise stage height too. Our perception of height is based upon the way our ears modify the waveform based on the positioning. In other words, we perceive horizontally based on left to right comparison, which is easy because our ears are in the sides of our head. Vertically, the only thing that "modifies" a waveform is the shape of our ear. That's why we don't get a real perception of stage height with headphones  If our ears were located on top of our head and on our chin, we could perceive it differently, but it's just not the case.

Look up head related transfer function charts online to see how frequencies are modified with differing vertical locations. I don't have a chart handy unfortunately but there are some on the web. Realistically the EQ required is going to be based on YOUR ear shape and body shape, but generally speaking 1-5kkhz is generally where things need tweaking, 2.5-5khz being the most effective. Think of it this way: sound from below, your ears don't have as much "material" there, whereas straight in front or above you, your ears are larger and will modify frequencies more (think of hearing normally and then cupping your ears, and that dramatic of a difference, it's similar with HRTF).


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

chad said:


> Move the tweeter and/or mid higher. Your ankles are deaf.



Chad ,you always have me lmao with simplest of humor ,thanx for the input man


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

Heres a new idea I thought of ,i currently have some mb quart tweeters mounted high up in my door panels wich i havent used since i got kick panels,my idea would be to run those off my h/u with maybe 20 watts going to them that would bring my tweeter hieght up to about chest level,also should i remove the passive crossover on my midrange 2500hz lp and let the midrange range naturally roll off ?


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## crzystng (May 2, 2008)

chad said:


> Your ankles are deaf.


LMAO

I agree, playing with the xover pionts on the tweeters. Can make all the difference in the world. Something else to consider, well if at all possible, is to try aiming the tweeter in it's current location. If all else fails, just, put em' on da glass


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## trevordj (Feb 22, 2009)

Dangerranger said:


> You can equalize to raise stage height too. Our perception of height is based upon the way our ears modify the waveform based on the positioning. In other words, we perceive horizontally based on left to right comparison, which is easy because our ears are in the sides of our head. Vertically, the only thing that "modifies" a waveform is the shape of our ear. That's why we don't get a real perception of stage height with headphones  If our ears were located on top of our head and on our chin, we could perceive it differently, but it's just not the case.
> 
> Look up head related transfer function charts online to see how frequencies are modified with differing vertical locations. I don't have a chart handy unfortunately but there are some on the web. Realistically the EQ required is going to be based on YOUR ear shape and body shape, but generally speaking 1-5kkhz is generally where things need tweaking, 2.5-5khz being the most effective. Think of it this way: sound from below, your ears don't have as much "material" there, whereas straight in front or above you, your ears are larger and will modify frequencies more (think of hearing normally and then cupping your ears, and that dramatic of a difference, it's similar with HRTF).


I think you are confused on this subject. I am by no means an expert, but from what I understand your ears do absolutely no "modification" of any frequencies as you suggest. Maybe you just worded it that way without actually meaning such a thing. 

Further, there is no way to apply equalization to raise or lower your stage height. Theories I have read (admittedly second hand through some of the smarter members on the forum) indicate that our ability to localize sound vertically happens approximately at the point where the wavelength of the sound equals the height of the ear. This is at about 5,000hz (~2.5 inches) but obviously is not an "all or nothing" phenomenon, from what I understand it occurs as a transition over a range of frequencies. Applying equalization only changes the relative intensity of the particular frequency you boost or cut, it does not change the frequency at which we are able to localize height nor does it change the apparent height of the sound stage. 

Edit: All of that being said, I heard a system this weekend with the tweeters as low as possible in the kick panels and the sound stage was NOT what you would describe as low .


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

trevordj said:


> I think you are confused on this subject. I am by no means an expert, but from what I understand your ears do absolutely no "modification" of any frequencies as you suggest. Maybe you just worded it that way without actually meaning such a thing.
> 
> Further, there is no way to apply equalization to raise or lower your stage height. Theories I have read (admittedly second hand through some of the smarter members on the forum) indicate that our ability to localize sound vertically happens approximately at the point where the wavelength of the sound equals the height of the ear. This is at about 5,000hz (~2.5 inches) but obviously is not an "all or nothing" phenomenon, from what I understand it occurs as a transition over a range of frequencies. Applying equalization only changes the relative intensity of the particular frequency you boost or cut, it does not change the frequency at which we are able to localize height nor does it change the apparent height of the sound stage.
> 
> Edit: All of that being said, I heard a system this weekend with the tweeters as low as possible in the kick panels and the sound stage was NOT what you would describe as low .


He's not confused ... he's absolutely right.

Height cues are related to size & shapes of outer ears ... which means : height cues only start around 2~4kHz, height cues are mono, and height cues can be "equalized-in" (by elimination & substitution of head-related transfer functions).


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## trevordj (Feb 22, 2009)

lycan said:


> He's not confused ... he's absolutely right.
> 
> Height cues are related to size & shapes of outer ears ... which means : height cues only start around 2~4kHz, height cues are mono, and height cues can be "equalized-in" (by elimination & substitution of head-related transfer functions).


Good to know, and thank you for correcting me. I find this subject quite interesting and have been trying to pay attention to your perspectives on it. I am happy I still have a lot to learn.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Key things to remember :

Height cues are "created" by the EQ that the outer ear provides, as measured inside the ear canal. These cues are mono in nature, because ears are on the sides of our heads, and have the same shape.

So height cues can be electronically "fooled" by essentially "substituting" an alternate EQ for the one provided by the outer ear  I've referenced an AES paper on this topic somewhere around here ...

But why go through all the trouble, is my old question. Just mount the height-sensitive drivers (they're the small ones, after all) up high to begin with, use parallel time alignment to make sure arrival times are the same as other drivers on the same corresponding channel ... and the ear has no way of knowing that _all_ drivers are not mounted up high. Mount the drivers responsible for ITD as far left/right as possible, with no regard to height ... and mount the drivers responsible for height up high. Problem solved


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Your perception of the soundstage is dependent on frequency. This is due to the size of the wavelengths in relation to the distance between your ears, and also the shape of your ears. What this means is that what works at low frequencies does not work at high frequencies. In the midrange (1khz) *both* are important.

What this means is the following:


The location of the speaker thats emitting the midrange frequencies will "make or break" your image.
If you have two drivers emitting those frequencies, your life will be a lot easier if they're closer together. (IE, if your crossover point is 1500hz, I'd discourage you from having your midrange and tweeter physically seperated.)
If you're able to "bump up" the crossover point, you have the luxury of relocating the tweeter. For instance, with a steep slope, you could likely run those mids to 3khz, or higher.
At high frequencies, the most important thing is getting the left and right tweeter to match. Personally, my favorite way to do *that* is to cross-fire the tweeters, and use a bit of EQ to counteract the high-frequency rollof that's caused by listening off-axis.
Keep in mind that reflections will screw up your response, and at high frequencies, that's *very* audible. This is one of the reasons that kick panel mounted tweeters sound wonky - reflections off the driver create phantom image cues. With tweeters mounted high, this isn't much of a concern.

HTH


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

I used to have my mids and tweeters in the stock door locations and was pretty happy with it, my soundstage was a bit low, but I didnt care.

Now I have the Focal KRX2's and this is my first time tinkering with tweeter positioning. So, I used the angled tweeter pods and placed them on the dash corners where the dash meets the windshield, both on axis. 

Is this a good start or no? It sounds pretty good to me I guess. The only speaker NOT on axis is the driver-mid which aims at the passenger pretty much.


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## crzystng (May 2, 2008)

I am sure you could go somewhere in Jacksonville to hear a really nice little setup so that you can have heard "greatness" and start to fully understand how complicated acoustics can be, ESP in a mobile environment. I'm just saying, I think you need to have heard something for reference so that you can "compare", and go from there. I'm not srue how the Foclas react to being fully on axis but I do know that some are designed to be setup like that, while others are designed completely differently.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Buy an MS-8


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## spmpdr (Nov 5, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Your perception of the soundstage is dependent on frequency. This is due to the size of the wavelengths in relation to the distance between your ears, and also the shape of your ears. What this means is that what works at low frequencies does not work at high frequencies. In the midrange (1khz) *both* are important.
> 
> What this means is the following:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info , currently my midrange are cutoff @ 2500 hz .Should i remove this filter and let it roll off on its own then re adjust the tweeter to match?I do have full adjustment capability. Im thinking by doing that i can get the mid up to at least 4khz then adjust the tweet from there and that would help.Also i cant relocate my current tweeter but i could add one above the dash to bring up the height if that would help.My thoughts on this were that if i could play with the location of the tweeter above the dash and the aiming position that i could kind of blend it in with the rest of the system with t/a and a little e/q.I would just run them off the back of the deck so they would be getting 22watts rms.


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## yuri (Apr 11, 2009)

if you have an eq , i sometimes find a 1 or 2db boost around 12k can lift the whole stage 
quite a few inches ..


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

lycan said:


> But why go through all the trouble, is my old question. Just mount the height-sensitive drivers (they're the small ones, after all) up high to begin with, use parallel time alignment to make sure arrival times are the same as other drivers on the same corresponding channel ... and the ear has no way of knowing that _all_ drivers are not mounted up high. Mount the drivers responsible for ITD as far left/right as possible, with no regard to height ... and mount the drivers responsible for height up high. Problem solved


Or you could just cut your outer ear off Vincent Van Gogh style, put some concentric drivers in the kick panels and call it a day


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Upstage kit or CMusics tuning tutorial [ #13 }in particular.


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## William_25 (Jul 7, 2010)

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/2349.pdf


chad said:


> Move the tweeter and/or mid higher. Your ankles are deaf.


I thought a lot of companies tell you to have your mids and highs lower on the door and closer together. That's what the owners manual for JL speakers say...?


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

You put speakers down low, you will typically get audio that sounds low. Much of our perception of height comes from a few things. First, we can get perceived location from the drivers if there is sufficient distortion. Second, we can get perceived location from the resonances of panels. Generally the body panels near the drivers can become excited and become their own audio source. Third, reflections of sounds can create a sense of space and location.

The better route is to move the tweeters and hopefully the mids up to the dash area. Having the drivers originate up high and having the dominant reflections up high, you will very much get a high sound perception. You may be able to get some height from low locations with aiming and hoping reflections give you some height, i.e. aiming the drivers to the windows and not at your feet. You do need to silence the local area around the drivers though. The kicks should not vibrate. The door panels should not vibrate. You have to control reflections from the dash and foot well area because these noises will draw your attention down low. You have to make the driver and surrounding area invisible to the ear. You only want to hear the sound directly from the driver, and you want any reflections you do pick up to be high reflections. You want all the low stuff gone. Move the drivers up or silence the foot well area, dash, and door paneling.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

3k and up, tweeters, at the same horizontal plane but high. Midbass and mids don't play this game. (I like using speakers at it's wide dispertion passband).
Stage heightm for my taste, must be just a tad above the dash.

If you crank your system everytime, tweets at the kicks are an option too.
Just sharing my own experience.


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