# High-End amp line?



## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Okay guys... I'm hatching some plans. I want to make a flagship amplifier line designed and built in the USA. Thing is... they will be expensive, very expensive by my standards. I'm looking into a large 4-channel to begin with -- is this what you guys would be looking for in a high-end amp? Or perhaps just a 2-channel?

Anyhow... my research into the 4-channel model has given me the following:

150 x 4 @ 4 ohms / 12 volts
300 x 2 @ 2 ohms / 12 volts
600 x 2 @ 4 ohms / 12 volts bridged
12 / 24 dB selectable and band-passable crossovers with 50 - 5000 Hz range

MSRP would be around $999 at a dealer... with a "going price" likely around 750 - 800 dollars.

Now... my question is this... who thinks there is a market for this anymore? I really want to build it in the next year if I can find the market for it 

I haven't started anything yet... just asking questions and getting pricing so far.

Comments?


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

specs like that to sell here, you'll have to come up with a VERY good reason someone should buy that instead of a PDX 4.150.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Might want to check Zapco's website.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Whiterabbit said:


> specs like that to sell here, you'll have to come up with a VERY good reason someone should buy that instead of a PDX 4.150.


Thats why I ask, surveying people that actually like high-end audio gear. I suppose justifying the price would be difficult if one doesn't appreciate "Made in USA" -- which some people say they do, my questions is will they actually pay for it? I'd love to do it if I could sell them 

---

Mless5,

Why is that? I am aware of Zapco and what they sell, but I'm not Zapco. If the high-end market is saturated and you know something about Zapco pricing @ dealers I'd love to know about it.


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

That's an awfully small market. High end stuff doesn't sell real fast. That's around what I spent on my last two amps, but that was 10 years ago, and I still got them.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

monkeyboy said:


> That's an awfully small market. High end stuff doesn't sell real fast. That's around what I spent on my last two amps, but that was 10 years ago, and I still got them.


Indeed  I wouldn't expect them to move like hot cakes or anything due to the cost. Of course, there must be some kind of market for such amps or they wouldn't exist. 

I'm not a large enough company to suddenly drop a full line of 10 different high-end amps so I suppose one of my biggest questions is, "Where should I start?" with this line... what number of channels / power do guys who buy this kind of amp want the most?


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

finish out the SAE line first and the big 2 channel SAX planned imo.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

sundownz said:


> Thats why I ask, surveying people that actually like high-end audio gear. I suppose justifying the price would be difficult if one doesn't appreciate "Made in USA" -- which some people say they do, my questions is will they actually pay for it? I'd love to do it if I could sell them
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


Just throwing an idea out there. Thought it might fit your bill. My apologies if my suggestion was off.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Mless5 said:


> Just throwing an idea out there. Thought it might fit your bill. My apologies if my suggestion was off.


Ah, Zapco is cool and all but I am asking about a product that I would be selling, so I'm not looking to buy other stuff


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

JoeHemi57 said:


> finish out the SAE line first and the big 2 channel SAX planned imo.


Indeed, that is all first priority. I'm getting a head start on planning what I can do for a flagship line  It will take a long time for it to actually hit, long after the other amps you are thinking of are out.


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

Whiterabbit said:


> specs like that to sell here, you'll have to come up with a VERY good reason someone should buy that instead of a PDX 4.150.


Because the 4.150 doesn't do 300 at 2 ohms...

I assume it was meant to do

300 x 4 @ 2ohms.. not x2


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Abaddon said:


> Because the 4.150 doesn't do 300 at 2 ohms...


Indeed... these are 12.0 volt ratings, it would be an absolute beast of an amp even just by raw-power standards. I really like the idea of it


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

http://zedaudio.com/Products/New-Amplifiers.htm

Build amps with these power ratings... I don't think Zed is planning to


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

DonovanM said:


> http://zedaudio.com/Products/New-Amplifiers.htm
> 
> Build amps with these power ratings... I don't think Zed is planning to


I would love to! Cost would be incredibly high if I were to do so... perhaps in 3-4 more years when I can afford to have a full line of flagship amps that don't need to sell quickly


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

Leviathan would be great, even without onboard crossovers...


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

JoeHemi57 said:


> Leviathan would be great, even without onboard crossovers...


I agree... I wanted to buy one back when they were talked about. That was well over a year ago, eh ?


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

JoeHemi57 said:


> Leviathan would be great, even without onboard crossovers...


x2


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

4 x 150 would be a good place to start. Strong enough to drive your 2-ways active with good headroom. A 2 x 300 would fit some of us, but you have to start somewhere


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

sundownz said:


> I would love to! Cost would be incredibly high if I were to do so... perhaps in 3-4 more years when I can afford to have a full line of flagship amps that don't need to sell quickly


I'm right with you on that. Remember the "high end" amplifier company Synopsis? They sent a lab queen (SA50X, I believe) to one of the car audio mags for a review - and flat-out bombed. They were supposedly Made in the USA, but had some serious design flaws that made them appear silly to the magazine editors. After the lackluster review, they were completely unable to meet customer demand, promised vaporware and completely vanished within a year. 

Don't do that.

Steve Mantz with Zed will have plenty to say about the US "high end" market. Ask him about ESX and Sweet Poison. 

On the other hand, you might want to take a different approach and research some technologies that aren't found in car audio:

Bruno Putzey's UCD design (NXP ownership) is a killer app in home audio. Tiny, low heat, self-oscillating full range (surprisingly simple, discrete) Class D with an excellent protection circuit. Pair it with a beefy power supply and you've got a virtually indestructible amp. Hypex.nl is the place to see them; the modules can be purchased for experimentation.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

sundownz said:


> Okay guys... I'm hatching some plans. I want to make a flagship amplifier line designed and built in the USA. Thing is... they will be expensive, very expensive by my standards. I'm looking into a large 4-channel to begin with -- is this what you guys would be looking for in a high-end amp? Or perhaps just a 2-channel?
> 
> Anyhow... my research into the 4-channel model has given me the following:
> 
> ...


I personally don't feel there is a huge market for such a beast beyond a few occasional purchases from members of a forum like this. At least at that price point.

I also have ideas on what type of amp I could develop. A few years ago I went as far as designing one ready for production. I had an outside consultant do the power supply. I did the amp section schematic, board layout, heat sink extrusion selection, metal stamping design, and BOM. All was done and set to go. But, ran out of funds to build a few once my first child was born. This was going to be a beast at 300Wrmsx4 into 4 ohm designed to damn near double its output into 2 ohm.

These days I'm thinking a modular amp may be the way to go. I have plans in the works to design small 50W and 100W rms mono amps that could be linked together as needed. Imagine a 10 channel x 100 amp. Or, mix and match power requirements as you need it. Hell, to finish it off it might be worth while to offer 500Wrms class D modules that would link together too. Imagine, you don't need to make the investment all at once. You can build it up as you can afford it.

As far as adding bass boost, EQ, crossovers, etc... Well, I feel these features don't belong in an amp. Processors are so damn cheap these days and far more flexible in the digital domain. The world of analog signal conditioning is going by the wayside.

Ge0


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I do remember Synopsis  Is that what happened to them? I didn't really notice their demise, but now that I think about I haven't seen anything from them in forever.

What I'm doing now is surveying what people want from this type of amp. I'm expecting to take at minimum 1 FULL year from now to begin production of the first model in this line -- perhaps longer due to the "start up" tooling costs in the USA.

I talk to Stephen often, he is a great guy to talk with about amps 

I've never heard of the UCD design... I'll go look into it a bit!



ezaudio said:


> I'm right with you on that. Remember the "high end" amplifier company Synopsis? They sent a lab queen (SA50X, I believe) to one of the car audio mags for a review - and flat-out bombed. They were supposedly Made in the USA, but had some serious design flaws that made them appear silly to the magazine editors. After the lackluster review, they were completely unable to meet customer demand, promised vaporware and completely vanished within a year.
> 
> Don't do that.
> 
> ...


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I have though about the modular topology as well and it seems like a really great idea for sure! I've often though about delving deeper into it but haven't had the funding set aside for such a project yet.

I also agree that the market will be pretty small... especially in the USA. Perhaps the international market would be better... I sell quite a few of my larger amps, 3000Ds especially, out of the USA as it is.




Ge0 said:


> I personally don't feel there is a huge market for such a beast beyond a few occasional purchases from members of a forum like this. At least at that price point.
> 
> I also have ideas on what type of amp I could develop. A few years ago I went as far as designing one ready for production. I had an outside consultant do the power supply. I did the amp section schematic, board layout, heat sink extrusion selection, metal stamping design, and BOM. All was done and set to go. But, ran out of funds to build a few once my first child was born. This was going to be a beast at 300Wrmsx4 into 4 ohm designed to damn near double its output into 2 ohm.
> 
> ...


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

sundownz said:


> I have though about the modular topology as well and it seems like a really great idea for sure! I've often though about delving deeper into it but haven't had the funding set aside for such a project yet.
> 
> I also agree that the market will be pretty small... especially in the USA. Perhaps the international market would be better... I sell quite a few of my larger amps, 3000Ds especially, out of the USA as it is.



Along that line of thought. I live about 10 miles from the Pioneer facility that designed and manufactures their PRS-D5000SPL amplifiers and all their automotive OEM radios. On a job interview a few years back, I was treated to a sneak peek at their amp lineup which included some extremely high-end amplifiers destined for...Japan. I asked about this, and their response was something like "The Japanese absolutely love USA made Pioneer amplifiers and these [Premier] are for export only."

Something to think about.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

JoeHemi57 said:


> Leviathan would be great, even without onboard crossovers...


x3 ditch teh crossovers, and keep the amp ratings

those would sell like hot cakes, hell id even take a Single amp that was 50x4+200x2+500x2 stereo (1000x1 mono), all in one chasis to run direct off my h701

no crossovers at all

now that would be awesome lol id easily pay 1K for an amp like that


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> I personally don't feel there is a huge market for such a beast beyond a few occasional purchases from members of a forum like this. At least at that price point.
> 
> I also have ideas on what type of amp I could develop. A few years ago I went as far as designing one ready for production. I had an outside consultant do the power supply. I did the amp section schematic, board layout, heat sink extrusion selection, metal stamping design, and BOM. All was done and set to go. But, ran out of funds to build a few once my first child was born. This was going to be a beast at 300Wrmsx4 into 4 ohm designed to damn near double its output into 2 ohm.
> 
> ...



I built a 500W Class D amp in 1996 when I got a glimpse of the first MMATS amplifier on the inside cover of CA&E. It didn't help that it was in a Jensen heatsink....  I subsequently (stupidly?) took it apart. I still have the PS toroid out of it, though!

I have a half-dozen full car amplifier designs on my computer just waiting for somewhere to go. You sound like my twin - though maybe a few years older.  Who did you get to do your power supply?


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

ezaudio said:


> Along that line of thought. I live about 10 miles from the Pioneer facility that designed and manufactures their PRS-D5000SPL amplifiers and all their automotive OEM radios. On a job interview a few years back, I was treated to a sneak peek at their amp lineup which included some extremely high-end amplifiers destined for...Japan. I asked about this, and their response was something like "The Japanese absolutely love USA made Pioneer amplifiers and these [Premier] are for export only."
> 
> Something to think about.


Indeed, so we have the same experience in that regards! The foreign markets are pretty solid for higher-end car audio... I've sold amps to Mexico, the Philippines, Israel, Singapore, and Slovakia already and I'm still quite new to the business. Those guys eat up car audio equipment and don't pinch their pennies as hard as USA customers 

I definitely need to look into the Japanese market... I haven't talked to even a single potential customer from Japan yet. Good tip!


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

sundownz said:


> Those guys eat up car audio equipment and don't pinch their pennies as hard as USA customers
> I definitely need to look into the Japanese market... I haven't talked to even a single potential customer from Japan yet. Good tip!


Those countries don't have WalMart (kidding...many do).  

The Japanese are very picky about their products. I'm not saying your amplifiers won't meet their standards, but you might find yourself redesigning the "look" twenty times before they buy one...then reject the shipment once it arrives.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I have to concur on the lack of xovers on the amplifiers. There are two scenarios: people want more than the basic 12db xover that goes up only to 200hz. You can give them a fully flexible xover up to 5k but that doesn't mean this very knowledgeable consumer won't need TA. Needless to say it is impossible to give top of the line filtering in an amp package. Option two the consumer is not that well informed, in this case he needs no xover at all again because the basic 200hz is probably already built in into the headunit.

If I were to consider buying another amp. it would be something like this:

-100 x 4 @4ohm 13.8V ( good selling point because a lot of amps. do 75 x4 and all 100w/ch are freakin expensive)
-Bridgeable ( good thing to have for diy since our drivers are 8ohmers and we want to make the most out of the amp power)
-Good cooling design (not necessarily with fans)
-No xover (lower distortion, low cost)

I think you should build a high end 4 ch amp that rivals the like of Zapco and Audison at much lower cost. Affordable high end is what will sell, fancy high end is already there and reputation will have to be built to attract this sort of clientèle. You may want 500w x 4 but the truth is there are very few applications for this sort of thing.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I'm really with ezaudio on pursuing a full range class D design. A Memphis Belle-style 5 channel with a sub channel that can do max power in 4,2, or 1 ohm would be killer. I've also never seen a full range class d 6 channel (Xetec ?) and I think that would be killer.

I think the design you're proposing now is taking a step backwards. Class D seems to be the wave of the future and a nice efficient design combined with a no nonsense heatsink (ala brax) would go along way towards telling consumers you're serious about high end audio.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

what you need to do is just come out with basically a much cheaper audison 5.1k. then you'll have a nice market, at least here .


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

i think a 100x8 at 4 ohm fullrange class d would be killer


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

a 6 channel full-range class D with the power output of the Leviathan and no crossovers would be BRILLIANT. Make it happen!


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

alphakenny1 said:


> what you need to do is just come out with basically a much cheaper audison 5.1k. then you'll have a nice market, at least here .


Could not agree more, the LRx 5.1k is one of the best all in one solutions on the market.IMO That amp was on my list for awhile. In fact Audison was the only other amps on my list besides ARC to go in the new SQ car. Zapco DC Ref amps won out in the in the end though. My current BNIB ARC's will go in my truck. All of my Audison stuff was sold.

I think there is a market for the high-end, its small though. The problem is competing with the likes of Zapco, Audison, Steg, ARC, Genesis ect. That have made a name for themselves over the years and hold a large portion of this market.

Jacob-I think you have good stuff. However, if you had a high-end line before I buy, it would get put in the hopper with all the other when making my decision to buy. I think most others would do the same comparing all the featues. 

This is just an example.
If your amp sold for $750 on the market but a person can pick-up a Zapco Ref 1000.4 for $659.99 and a DC Ref 1000.4 for $999.99 with all the processing or a Audison VRx 4.300.2 $999.99 off places like woofersect it may be a hard sell when push comes to shove.IMO I only bring these up because of their specs and they all have some pretty extensive x-over abilities.

This is just IMO on trying to enter the high-end of the market. I agree there are niches like us on here that appreciate this stuff. 

*I guess real question is how many of these do you have to move to break even and is it possible to do so?*

*Will people choose your's enough over the likes of Audison, Zapco, ARC ect to move these new amps?*

*Alot of people even on here are value minded. Just take a look at the boners of the month.*


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## Sinfoni_USA (Mar 9, 2005)

I truly believe that you would have a market for a "Leviathan" styled amplifier with NO PROCESSING, JUST POWER.... Processing is so cheap now I don't feel that on-board processing is nessesary for a project such as this. 

By removing the processing, you would be able to conserve space so the amp should be a little smaller and reduce cost.

J


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## bigjae1976 (Jun 21, 2007)

I'd like to see a 75x2/150x2 4 channel amp. That would better match power requirements for 2 way active setups. I'd like to see no crossover as well.

Produce a matching 2 channel (150x2) and a powerful sub amp(s). Maybe something similar to the Zapco C2k 9.0 and 4kw.

The line has to look exquisite or raw. My favorite looking amp are the tru tech copper series. Next are the older US Amps in florida splash.

I think there is a market for something handmade and expensive...snob appeal per say. But you'll have to get into the right dealers who service these types of customers. I imagine that your typical customer will be older and drives a luxury or upscale car (MB, BMW, Lexus, Acura, etc).

I know that Killeen, TX doesn't have many of these types of customers.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys  You have given me quite a bit to think about for where to go w/ the high-end line. I will give it some thought and keep thinking away about it since it will take some time to get this all rolling.

I'll see what can be done about a full-range Class-D design as well, and what it would cost to develop / build in the USA. What about Class-T? Any thoughts on Class-T designs?


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

isn't Tri-path dead?


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

alphakenny1 said:


> what you need to do is just come out with basically a much cheaper audison 5.1k. then you'll have a nice market, at least here .


What does the Audison 5.1k sell for? Combining anything remotely "cheap" and Made in the USA will be difficult, but perhaps I can get under their price.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

I believe it costs $1499 MSRP


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

sundownz said:


> Thanks for all the feedback so far guys  You have given me quite a bit to think about for where to go w/ the high-end line. I will give it some thought and keep thinking away about it since it will take some time to get this all rolling.
> 
> I'll see what can be done about a full-range Class-D design as well, and what it would cost to develop / build in the USA. What about Class-T? Any thoughts on Class-T designs?


I would suggest checking into licensing ICE-POWER technology before pursuing Tri-path. I have heard more favorable feedback based on this technology.

Ge0


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

There is some kind of market, but I think they can spread out the costs over multiple lines and multipe models in the same line (the heat sink is similar, so they just cut a longer one for a big amp). 

I have seen very few high end amps come onto the market from new companies and do well. Zapco has been around. Genesis, DLS, Audison have been around for some time, just not marketed well. There is probably a good reason for that.

Juan




sundownz said:


> Indeed  I wouldn't expect them to move like hot cakes or anything due to the cost. Of course, there must be some kind of market for such amps or they wouldn't exist.


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

A budget minded line would be fantastic!

I think some 4 and 5 channel amplifier competition (especially in the price arena) for the likes of the eD NINe.5, Audison 5.1k, and even the DD-S Class amps would be well received.

What would probably earn the gold medal from all us DIY'ers would be a 4 channel model with similar specs to the DD-S, but without the onboard processing to hopefully give it a small footprint and bring both your and our cost down. 

...However, I can see how deciding to make such an amp would be a tough call since you probably don't want to receive a thousand emails and phone calls a day from unknowing users that keep frying their speakers because they don't understand the need for some kind of independent active XO.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Thoraudio said:


> isn't Tri-path dead?


TAPS...playing in background, 21 gun salute...dirt being thrown in hole!


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> I would suggest checking into licensing ICE-POWER technology before pursuing Tri-path. I have heard more favorable feedback based on this technology.
> 
> Ge0


I spoke with them for a while... but they blew me off after a while, presumably since I'm a small venture and wasn't jumping to immediatly order parts. I'll give it another shot


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

DejaWiz said:


> A budget minded line would be fantastic!
> 
> I think some 4 and 5 channel amplifier competition (especially in the price arena) for the likes of the eD NINe.5, Audison 5.1k, and even the DD-S Class amps would be well received.
> 
> ...


Crossovers don't really add a whole lot to cost and really broaden to potential market. You can always turn them off or use them to "stack" slopes with your active processing if you like, thats my view  So, I won't likely make an amp with no crossovers at all anytime in the near future.

If you want something that competes on price this is the wrong thread for us to talk about that  I would source anything where price is a concern overseas, USA manufacturing is expensive and really only makes sense to me when going for higher end and more expensive products. Compared to what we are talking about now my current amp offerings are "budget" minded already


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

sundownz said:


> Thanks for all the feedback so far guys  You have given me quite a bit to think about for where to go w/ the high-end line. I will give it some thought and keep thinking away about it since it will take some time to get this all rolling.
> 
> I'll see what can be done about a full-range Class-D design as well, and what it would cost to develop / build in the USA. What about Class-T? Any thoughts on Class-T designs?



I wouldn't go that route. Tripath has had a fairly bumpy road recently and their modules seem to be discontinued without much notice. There are a lot of marginally acceptable Tripath amps on the market (not Tripath's fault) - and frankly, I think people are tired of seeing them. 

I guess I don't see where "Made in the USA" has to be expensive. I suppose if you hire people to hand solder every part - that would be pricey. I am having my DSPower built in the US (about 5 miles from my desk) and the price is equal to China once you consider all the FOB minimums, shipping and customs delays. I mean...wow. For a small run, it's actually cheaper in the US, IMO. But, I source my PCBs from China (through an agent in Canada) and I buy hundreds of thousands of parts at a time. Incidentally, the stuffing house will supply SMDs and common components, savings $$$ per board over buying an entire reel. You will need toroidal transformers: Coiltronics is my personal favorite toroidal winding house. Reasonable prices and very nice components.

Those fancy "gold" terminal blocks come from overseas. They are not made in the US for any reasonable cost. Look at Degson.com under barrier terminals starting on page 10. You can buy as little as 200 pcs from them shipped express mail. It's actually a little easier to have the heatsink manufacturer tool the endplates and heatsink and supply the terminal blocks, fuse holders, RCAs (teflon insert style), and transistor clamps. Have them send you the tool to remove/install the clamps so you're not using a screwdriver.  

The deal is - if you do not do a lot of the legwork yourself, or find a buddy that has done it for you, you will pay out the nose for consultation. You don't need R&D if you hire an amplifier designer that already has a large repertoire of designs in his file cabinet. I checked into it and found that I can license a design, provided I put his name on it "Signature Edition" style for a _very_ reasonable license fee (per unit sold minus returns). That's cheap! But, I have to design the power supply, the mechanicals and arrange for manufacturing. This engineer is alive and well and has quite a humongous discussion thread going on over at DiyAudio.com.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I am still hoping for that 5 channel. Made in USA or not.

Wishing for around 125x4 and 600x1...in a small chassis.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

DejaWiz said:


> A budget minded line would be fantastic!
> 
> I think some 4 and 5 channel amplifier competition (especially in the price arena) for the likes of the eD NINe.5, Audison 5.1k, and even the DD-S Class amps would be well received.
> 
> ...



I have the DD-S class. I think the footprint is of nice size, I just wish it was offered in a 5 channel.

What the S4A makes me want to do is go passive....so I can retain my two way front stage, get good power to the subs and use small space.


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

An amp I would be interested in would be something along the lines of a 6 channel amp with progressively larger outputs. Maybe 30x2, 75x2 and 150x2. That would run most 4 ohm 3 way active fronts. I suspect it would almost be sufficient for 8 ohm drivers. The Xetec is the closest thing I have seen that I can think of. Maybe some of the A/D/S.

I would design it with the intention of the low power portion being extremely accurate and noise free - knowing that the output would rarely be over a watt or 2 (class A?). The mid and low sections could be comparable to any good AB amps out there today. The amp could also be designed knowing (unless it is partially class A) that not much heat dissapation would be required from the tweeter and mid outputs - so possibly make the entire amp smaller than an equal size output 4 or 6 channel amp. A quiet variable speed cooling fan solution could work well to lower weight and size. It would have to be quiet enough to be in the passenger cabin and not be heard.

The problem I would see is that being an unknown brand it would take a long time of excellent sonic performance and reliability as well as a reasonable cost before they would become well known enough to sell well.

I think there are enough good sub amps out there that I would leave that piece of the market alone. I guess you could make one that had similar heatsink design but your standard class D internals at a standard class D price.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

CBRworm said:


> An amp I would be interested in would be something along the lines of a 6 channel amp with progressively larger outputs. Maybe 30x2, 75x2 and 150x2. That would run most 4 ohm 3 way active fronts. I suspect it would almost be sufficient for 8 ohm drivers. The Xetec is the closest thing I have seen that I can think of. Maybe some of the A/D/S.


the new arc kar 6 channel i believe does 60 x 4 + 155 x 2 or something like that.


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## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

alphakenny1 said:


> the new arc kar 6 channel i believe does 60 x 4 + 155 x 2 or something like that.


That's a pretty nice power combination there.... I'd probably prefer slightly more, myself, but I have a bit more in mind than most people.

I'd like to see a 6-channel:
50x2 - HP xover w/ 10x multi (rear fill or tweets)
100x2 - bandpass capability
200x2 or 800-1000x1 @ 1 ohm - bandpass capability (bridge for sub(s) and use as a LP + SSF)

Obviously with bandpass capability on channels 3-6... literally, something budgeted toward an active 3-way or 4-way setup. This amp could handle all the processing you need for a NICE 3-way active system, provided you could do 18-24dB/xovers. If you added a similarly-styled 1000W mono, then you've got a 4-way setup that can't be beat.

I'm looking at running 6 frigging amps for my 4-way setup.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

tRdoc said:


> That's a pretty nice power combination there.... I'd probably prefer slightly more, myself, but I have a bit more in mind than most people.
> 
> I'd like to see a 6-channel:
> 50x2 - HP xover w/ 10x multi (rear fill or tweets)
> ...




What would also be cool is if it would work off of one set of inputs. Some of the SQ decks only have one set of RCA preouts. If it could use that one set for all channels that would be really cool.

A staggered 6 channel would be about as good as the 5 channel I proposed. I can always find a sub to work with 500-600w.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

I think one has to look at why people want the expensive amplifiers. For most I think it is prestige. So... how to get to that point?

----

Big made in the US amplifiers are things of the past, people don't want big PG MS1000 amplifiers with a big price anymore. We want techologie and small foot prints. And it also seems that a lot of us want an all in one solution.

The rest want prestige or hope that buying X named high end brand amp will make their system sound better.

----

I think a 5 to 7 channel amp, small foot print with versatile xovers would be a good place to start. I agree with you that no xovers limits the people who would want it.

All and all, find something that's not in the market right now and try and carve out a space foryourself with that.

I can't see myself spending big bucks for an amplifier that is big for no other reason then it is made in the US. I need content 

Don't get me wrong, I think marketing should play a big part to make it alluring, playing on some of the higher end parts or design choices, but I think that the thing that would get alot of us interested is if it has some unique features such as modules, a really small foot print, lots of channels, different monting options (such as engine bay, sealing?), Xovers with BP and selectable slopes, maybe have auto ajusting gain setting, auto turn on without remote wire, perhaps it could have other things that make for cleaner installs such as it could be a distro block, have a 0awg input and on the other end have a few 4awg outputs, maybe optical input. Perhaps have a a control unit to adjut gains and xover slopes from the drivers seat as well as bass boost or anything else that the amp has.

Just throwing ideas out there that I would find compelling in a high end amp.

The one thing that impresses me the least with high end amps are amps that offer nothing more then their brand name and a promise of precise sound reproduction... cough focal caugh


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

newtitan said:


> x3 ditch teh crossovers, and keep the amp ratings
> 
> those would sell like hot cakes, hell id even take a Single amp that was 50x4+200x2+500x2 stereo (1000x1 mono), all in one chasis to run direct off my h701
> 
> ...


x2. an all in one 7 channel with that kind of headroom would get my business hands down. I talked to a guy at elemental designs about it when they came out with the nine.5 and he wasn't too keen on the idea.


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

x5 (4)? on ditching the xovers. 

Jacob, i like were you said you were going with the new 100.4 xovers over on SSA. 
10 Hz - 500 Hz variable subsonic filter (CH 1&2 and CH 3&4)

But like its been stated a few times. Most of the consumers of said amp either dont know whatthehell a crossover is, or using headunit or external crossover abilities. 

W/o my h701 for the moment, im using the onboard crossover on my SAX 100.4 however, like most amps, its too difficult to get a precise xover point from the dial. Digital>analog.

I also like the thought of various slope options rather than being stuck with the 12db roll off which i think the SAX line has now.

How about ditching the bass knob and going with a Digital crossover controller that can be dash/center console mounted? maybe a little TA as well?


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Lots of good input here  I'll keep these things in mind... looks like more than 4-channels would be a huge draw in a higher-end amplifier.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

definitely. a 7 channel that you could bridge four of the channels for a beefier 5 channel would be money.

(yeah that's kind of redundant)

distro blocks FTL!


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

I like the idea of a 5, 6, and 7 channel amp targeted for active systems.

Maybe call it something like the "Sundown Center Stage" line. <shrug>

5 channel staggered power amp for a 3-way active system
...Channels 1 and 2 = 2x45w rms, Channels 3 and 4 = 2x155w rms, Channel 5 = 1x300w rms at 4 ohms

7 channel staggered power amp for a 4-way active system
...Channels 1 and 2 = 2x45r rms, Channels 3 and 4 = 2x65w rms, Channels 5 and 6 = 2x120w rms, Channel 7 = 1x300w rms at 4 ohms

6 channel amp for a multitude of applications
...Channels 1 through 4 = 4x75w rms, Channel 5 and 6 = 2x100w rms at 4 ohms (channels 5 and 6 1 ohm stabe stereo or 2 ohms bridged, perhaps?)


Thoughts?


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## LiquidClen (Dec 27, 2005)

I think if you made an amp that put out its peak power at 6 or 8 ohms (if that's possible) it would be popular with the kind of ppl on this board


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I am really like the 5-channel staggered approach... but I think I would prefer a 6-channel staggered amp where the sub channel is bridgeable to a low impedance. Perhaps have the first four channels Class A/B and 5+6 a full-range Class-D topology bridgeable down to 1 ohm.

*CH 1 + 2* -- Class A/B
50 x 2 @ 4 ohms
75 x 2 @ 2 ohms
150 x 1 @ 4 ohms

*CH 3 + 4* -- Class A/B
150 x 2 @ 4 ohms
200 x 2 @ 2 ohms
400 x 1 @ 4 ohms

*CH 5 + 6* -- Class D full-range
200 x 2 @ 4 ohms
300 x 2 @ 2 ohms
400 x 2 @ 1 ohm
500 x 2 @ 1/2 ohm
1000 x 1 @ 1 ohm

Thoughts? I think it sounds really cool... if I can find a designer to work around a "hybrid" amp incorporating both Class-A/B and full-range Class-D topologies!


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I am really like the 5-channel staggered approach... but I think I would prefer a 6-channel staggered amp where the sub channel is bridgeable to a low impedance. Perhaps have the first four channels Class A/B and 5+6 a full-range Class-D topology bridgeable down to 1 ohm.
> 
> *CH 1 + 2* -- Class A/B
> 50 x 2 @ 4 ohms
> ...


That would be awesome!


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

i like the 5 channel staggered, but add two more channel 3+4's


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

sundownz said:


> I am really like the 5-channel staggered approach... but I think I would prefer a 6-channel staggered amp where the sub channel is bridgeable to a low impedance. Perhaps have the first four channels Class A/B and 5+6 a full-range Class-D topology bridgeable down to 1 ohm.
> 
> *CH 1 + 2* -- Class A/B
> 50 x 2 @ 4 ohms
> ...


The idea is novel except that I think you'll run into size issues with the class a/b front channel's. From reading the thread, I think the consensus is a multi channel amplifier with big power. I don't think this was explicitly stated but I think size will be a HUGE factor in the success of this amp as many people are getting big power out of smaller amps (Alpine PDX). Efficiency is also a plus with the class d unit's which is another reason why I believe they're becoming popular.

If you could take your current specs and make the entire amp full range class d with a simple and heavy heat sink (Brax, Genesis Profile, Old Tru), I think you'd have a monster on your hands.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I am really like the 5-channel staggered approach... but I think I would prefer a 6-channel staggered amp where the sub channel is bridgeable to a low impedance. Perhaps have the first four channels Class A/B and 5+6 a full-range Class-D topology bridgeable down to 1 ohm.
> 
> *CH 1 + 2* -- Class A/B
> 50 x 2 @ 4 ohms
> ...


I really like this idea the best out of what has been listed and this would be my pick. Two big thumbs way UP!!! 

Only thing I would change if I could would be this, but I like having power on tap. Also if I wanted to run a 4-way I could use this for everything put my tweeters. So I would just need a small tweeter amp, thats it.

*CH 1 + 2 100w per channel @4ohm*


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Your all missing the mark

Hello Kitty , car audio amps


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> The idea is novel except that I think you'll run into size issues with the class a/b front channel's.


My first thought upon seeing those proposed specs was "old US Amps surfboard"...


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> My first thought upon seeing those proposed specs was "old US Amps surfboard"...


True... it would be very large... I will examine doing 4 or maybe all six channels with a full-range Class-D style topology.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

There are already soooooooo many 5 channels on the market.... And some with BP xovers available, or maybe just one of those but.

But every compagny has a 5 channel, great for 2 channel active or for people who run rears. Not much out there for 3 way actives+sub.

6 channel is basically the same as 5, you either bridge 5 and 6 for sub or need to get another amp if your going active 3 way.

7 or 8 is the way to go, a la phonocar PH2000... uhhmmmmmmmm yummy.








Stereo W Rms 4 Ohm - 150x4 + 50x4
Stereo W Rms 2 Ohm - 250x4 + 80x4
Mono W Rms 4 Ohm - 500x2 + 150x2
Stabile 2 Ohm. THD < 0,2%
Rapporto segnale/rumore > 96dB
Dimensioni L 288 - H 88 - P 560


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

But all those that are available can't do 500+ watts on the sub channel. They are usually 100-200.

I personally would be inclined to keep my sub amp separate, but a true all in one solution that was not lacking in any area would be good. 

What would a monster like this cost?



I tend to buy high end equipment. I don't care about prestige, most people I know would look at a McIntosh or Tru Tech amp and think that I couldn't afford an alpine. I look for reliability and (shudder) sound quality. I do want a THD of <.01% and a S/N ratio of over 100 - not just at rated output but also at very low volumes. I can't verify the specs, but I look at them. One of the first things that will turn me off is an amp that has a high noise floor, or cheap pots. IMO I should be able to turn the gains all the way up with the inputs disconnected and hear nothing from the speakers. No hiss, no PS noise, no nothing. I am not sold on full range class D amps yet, but I am about to put a 4 channel PDX in my car running tweets and mids. I am honestly going to try to give it a fair shot because I need to dedicate less space and weight to my system. If it works you will soon see three XXK's and a MMats for sale because they are holding the back of my car down. 

So to me weight is important. I realize heavy implies solid and reliable, but it is not necessary. With better heatsink design the XXK's could shed a good portion of their weight and I would be more inclined to keep them in my car. Maybe I should put one on the endmill and add some grooves. That's a lot of clips to undo though.

This is not as much an issue in other cars, but my car is small. I can feel an extra 50 pounds of amplifiers mounted high in the trunk


So make it small, powerful, reliable, light, and 6+ channels. Oh - it can't cost more than 6+ channels of comparable amps. Seems like around $750 would be the sweet spot. If full range class D can really have SQ that would compete with the likes of Zapco, et al - maybe that is the way to go.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

i'd prefer an full range class d, efficiency rules in my mind. 

if you can something like that around here for a reasonable price, honestly, you'd have a decent market around here. but how much will it cost and how much it'll sell is beyond my knowledge. npdang tried to do a sub for us diy'ers and unfortunately, it didn't go that well. something to consider...

but i'd seriously consider a staggered amp for user. i'd love to have an amp with specs you stated (50 x 2, 150 x 2, 200 x 2).


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

I drive a truck and will always drive a truck so weight will never be an issue for me.  

Big bad 4 channels ala the Zapco DC1000.4 are what I want. At least 150 x 4 plus big numbers bridged for midbass for tons of headroom.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

7 or 8 channel
class d (smaller the better)
forget about the high end made in the USA, not many are willing to pay for that, and those that do, buy old stuff. the onyl thing i see you gaining by going made in the usa is people buying your amps used on ebay in 10 years for decent amounts of money because they are so rare because they were too expensive for people to buy when they were new


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## toolfan91 (Dec 7, 2005)

sundownz said:


> I am really like the 5-channel staggered approach... but I think I would prefer a 6-channel staggered amp where the sub channel is bridgeable to a low impedance. Perhaps have the first four channels Class A/B and 5+6 a full-range Class-D topology bridgeable down to 1 ohm.
> 
> *CH 1 + 2* -- Class A/B
> 50 x 2 @ 4 ohms
> ...


I just picked up a pair of KARs and IA20.1, but ill probably look at changing in another year just because... If you did come out with an amp like that, I can guarantee you I would buy it! Would the aesthetics match the Sundown SAZ-3000D?


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

While this is an interesting discussion, it doesn't seem to be that worthwhile. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I don't feel that anyone on this board REALLY values "Made in the USA" - I don't think anyone here will really fork over additional (let's say $250) cash for country of origin.

The car is being placed before the horse imo - take a look at what's out there on the market, find the holes, and fill them, not the other way around. You are also talking to a miniscule portion of the overall 12v market - if you are ok with being a narrow niche company, then that's ok.

Ask yourself, what can you do better than something like a PDX (ton of power, small size, efficient, reasonable cost) or in the 5 channel market, how will you beat an Audison 5.1 (staggered power, lots of it, big class D 5th channel, small, great xover design).

Everything I've heard so far on this thread is just a regurgitation of what everyone else has done and the only value add has been "Made in the USA" - that's just not going to sell amplifiers.

Where is the value?

my $0.02


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I am really like the 5-channel staggered approach... but I think I would prefer a 6-channel staggered amp where the sub channel is bridgeable to a low impedance. Perhaps have the first four channels Class A/B and 5+6 a full-range Class-D topology bridgeable down to 1 ohm.
> 
> *CH 1 + 2* -- Class A/B
> 50 x 2 @ 4 ohms
> ...


pimp ****...I'd be down with with a pre-order if you could keep it in a small case.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

rcurley55 said:


> While this is an interesting discussion, it doesn't seem to be that worthwhile. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I don't feel that anyone on this board REALLY values "Made in the USA" - I don't think anyone here will really fork over additional (let's say $250) cash for country of origin.
> 
> The car is being placed before the horse imo - take a look at what's out there on the market, find the holes, and fill them, not the other way around. You are also talking to a miniscule portion of the overall 12v market - if you are ok with being a narrow niche company, then that's ok.
> 
> ...


Similar product that's not $1,000 or not eD.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rcurley55 said:


> While this is an interesting discussion, it doesn't seem to be that worthwhile. Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I don't feel that anyone on this board REALLY values "Made in the USA" - I don't think anyone here will really fork over additional (let's say $250) cash for country of origin.
> 
> The car is being placed before the horse imo - take a look at what's out there on the market, find the holes, and fill them, not the other way around. You are also talking to a miniscule portion of the overall 12v market - if you are ok with being a narrow niche company, then that's ok.
> 
> ...


I think he's already stated that he understand's the market for this amp is small. He's also stated that he sell's amplifiers outside of the US where high-end audio is a whole different getup. 

With that said, I can't think of a full range class d 6 channel with the power he's proposing. In addition, his amp allows for each channel to be bridged mono allowing for a great amount of flexbility. I think the idea is novel.

I'd actually be more concerned about people BUYING the amplifier. Remember the Leviathan?


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

Flipx99 said:


> Similar product that's not $1,000 or not eD.


That suggested power rating can be had for under $1000 easily with the PDX4.150 and the 1.600.

So what you want is high quality for cheap now? I can't comment on the msrp of the Audison, and it's easily guaranteed that there is some value (and of course asking price) tied up in the Audison name - but we are asking a relatively new amplifier mfg (no offense or ridicule meant - all companies start somewhere) to best that amplifier technically and on price on a lower volume level...

From a marketing perspective, this to me doesn't make sense...

As it's been said before, I feel as if the high end amplifier market is fairly well saturated and it only takes some minor e-criticism to bury an internet company...it's a shaky place to play imo (I'm just running a basic SWOT analysis in my head with a few assumptions built in).

Good luck to sundown though - again, I don't mean any disrespect - just trying to have an intelligent marketing-based conversation about the amplifier space.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> I think he's already stated that he understand's the market for this amp is small. He's also stated that he sell's amplifiers outside of the US where high-end audio is a whole different getup.


Then he should be asking international buyers what they want - not us.



> With that said, I can't think of a full range class d 6 channel with the power he's proposing. In addition, his amp allows for each channel to be bridged mono allowing for a great amount of flexbility. I think the idea is novel.


You can do the same thing with a pair of PDX's - I don't see what is novel about that. If the market is really clamoring for 6 channel amplifiers - then by all means, grab three sets of ICEpower two channel modules, pay out the nose for a sweet power supply and put it in a nice chassis - but I wouldn't call that novel.



> I'd actually be more concerned about people BUYING the amplifier. Remember the Leviathan?


And you are smart for having that concern - people will promise left and right that they will buy it, but the proof as they say is in the pudding.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Well...I like many have been into car audio for a bit but I really don't have a clue about the so-called "High End" market. It is a very hard one to call.

On one hand you have a SQ crowd that believes a lot of things....some real, some voodoo like:
1.) Amp for every speaker voice
2.) Amp for each side (L and R)
3.) Stereo Bass
4.) No class D amps
5.) MUCH headroom...I mean TONS OF HEADROOM!!!!!!!!
6.) Etc....

On the other hand there are SQ types that buy into the Multi channel thing and pretty much feel that ANY well made amp should be able to get the job done just as long as the rest of the system is just as good or better.

I don't know the market but I am sure it has not changed in that Two and Four channel amps outsell Five or Six channel amps. A high-end four channel makes the best business sense. However, there are SO MANY amps around that get the job done in the Mid to High-end range. 

I think to make some noise you had better have a product that looks SEXY has hell but not too over the top....or maybe a look that has not been done or is different than anything that is out.
As far as the internals, the power output, and the sound....*YOU HAD BETTER BRING IT!* I think the ARC SE line is one to look at:
http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0610_cae_02z+Arc_Audio_4200SE+Internal_View.jpg
http://images.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0610_cae_04z+Arc_Audio_4200SE+Top_View.jpg

To be able to offer something different will make the line stand out. I think these new and small ICE Power type amps will be around for a while, as many seem to like the big power with space savings. I think the modular idea is sweet as hell...I think that is the future. I think the idea of a HIGH Power 6,7,or 8 channel in a reasonable platform for no more than $1000-$1500 is one that will get noticed around the net. Again, I don't know the retail market but this is something that the sales guys will have to....SALE! Look at the Alpine PDX amps....Three of those stacked are pretty much what we are talking about....Somebody had to "SALE" that idea.

SO...in short...Your high end amp line will have to be different than what is already out to get noticed.....A high end, high power 6 channel with a optional Modular/Bolt-On Side-By-Side (that is different than the Alpines) parallel/Bridged two channel SUB amp that makes it's power into any load like the JBL/CROWN amps would be killer. Also offer something that has very killer looks and commands attention. If you could use a car as comparison....the Chrysler 300C is one that attracted a lot of attention based on its looks. Design one of those in an amplifier and give it the internals to compete with the competition and you will have an instant hit!

If it were that easy.....The amp market sounds like a tough one to be in?

Just one man's opinion.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rcurley55 said:


> Then he should be asking international buyers what they want - not us.


He's planning to sell to both markets. Maybe you didn't read the whole thread





rcurley55 said:


> You can do the same thing with a pair of PDX's - I don't see what is novel about that. If the market is really clamoring for 6 channel amplifiers - then by all means, grab three sets of ICEpower two channel modules, pay out the nose for a sweet power supply and put it in a nice chassis - but I wouldn't call that novel.


I may have missed this PDX with staggered outputs. Have a link? I think a class d full range 6 channel with the ability to bridge each channel down to a mono load is a novelty. Can you provide a link to any other such beast?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

WLDock said:


> Well...I like many have been into car audio for a bit but I really don't have a clue about the so-called "High End" market. It is a very hard one to call.
> 
> On one hand you have a SQ crowd that believes a lot of things....some real, some voodoo like:
> 1.) Amp for every speaker voice
> ...


I agree with all your points. I really wanted a Xetec but they are no more.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

rcurley55 said:


> That suggested power rating can be had for under $1000 easily with the PDX4.150 and the 1.600.
> 
> So what you want is high quality for cheap now? I can't comment on the msrp of the Audison, and it's easily guaranteed that there is some value (and of course asking price) tied up in the Audison name - but we are asking a relatively new amplifier mfg (no offense or ridicule meant - all companies start somewhere) to best that amplifier technically and on price on a lower volume level...


That's two chassis...not one.

Point is...I am curious how well eD is moving it's 5 channels. Maybe pretty well...I don't know. Since I am not a big fan of the CS, I am not going to buy one.

However...a preorder would facilitate people putting there money where there mouth is...so to speak.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> I may have missed this PDX with staggered outputs. Have a link? I think a class d full range 6 channel with the ability to bridge each channel down to a mono load is a novelty. Can you provide a link to any other such beast?


Only multichannel I know is the S4a...but it's a 4 channel, not a 6


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> He's planning to sell to both markets. Maybe you didn't read the whole thread


No, I read the whole thing - front to back actually - I make it a point to do so whenever I post. It's already been made clear that the bulk of the "high-end" market is overseas. If I was a high end amplifier mfg, I'd target that market, not us.



> I may have missed this PDX with staggered outputs. Have a link? I think a class d full range 6 channel with the ability to bridge each channel down to a mono load is a novelty. Can you provide a link to any other such beast?


And what's so special about staggered outputs? Are you against more power for the same price? No, I obviously can't link you to such an amplifier as you have requested, because to my knowledge it doesn't exist. Just b/c it hasn't been built, doesn't make it a viable business model...

Your sarcasm, btw, is a little tired and not necessary - I figured I would receive such a response; however, as my opinions clearly go against the gun-ho grain here.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rcurley55 said:


> That suggested power rating can be had for under $1000 easily with the PDX4.150 and the 1.600.
> 
> So what you want is high quality for cheap now? I can't comment on the msrp of the Audison, and it's easily guaranteed that there is some value (and of course asking price) tied up in the Audison name - but we are asking a relatively new amplifier mfg (no offense or ridicule meant - all companies start somewhere) to best that amplifier technically and on price on a lower volume level...


What makes Audison a better manufacturer? How do you propose he enter's the amplifier game being that he hasn't the resources of an Audison? According to your statement's, he shouldn't enter the market because he'll never win.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

Flipx99 said:


> That's two chassis...not one.


I guess the real question is how much people value flexibility over some additional power wires?



> Point is...I am curious how well eD is moving it's 5 channels. Maybe pretty well...I don't know. Since I am not a big fan of the CS, I am not going to buy one.


it's a good question, but I remember that thing being HUGE - that's not the direction that much of the market is making.



> However...a preorder would facilitate people putting there money where there mouth is...so to speak.


And often it's a guess at best b/c until you really invest a ton of money into the design and spec'ing the thing out, you don't know the final cost involved - I remember this exact issue with the Leviathan - everyone said they'd do it, but when it really came down to it - it never happened.

I'm not trying to be debbie downer, I just don't see where the value is.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> What makes Audison a better manufacturer? How do you propose he enter's the amplifier game being that he hasn't the resources of an Audison? According to your statement's, he shouldn't enter the market because he'll never win.


I actually never stated that Audison was better - only that he would have to overcome the perceived value of an Audison (the name and associated quality) and be better technically (they already have a small, staggered power, hybrid, thermally efficient amplifier) for less money - unless of course being "Made in the USA" would drive enough people to pay more...

You have misread my statement - what he needs to do is provide more VALUE than his competitors - something that his target market is willing to pay for. I don't see where any of these propositions have delivered higher value than the competitors already out.

It's always a question of value - no one should enter unless they can deliver the same value for less money, or more value at the same price point - or even better, more value for less money - pretty simple.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rcurley55 said:


> No, I read the whole thing - front to back actually - I make it a point to do so whenever I post. It's already been made clear that the bulk of the "high-end" market is overseas. If I was a high end amplifier mfg, I'd target that market, not us.


Point taken. I think we're talking the definition of high-end now. Are you selling a high-end value in name or in service? Is he gonna sell a product or marketing hype?




rcurley55 said:


> And what's so special about staggered outputs? Are you against more power for the same price? No, I obviously can't link you to such an amplifier as you have requested, because to my knowledge it doesn't exist. Just b/c it hasn't been built, doesn't make it a viable business model...
> 
> Your sarcasm, btw, is a little tired and not necessary - I figured I would receive such a response; however, as my opinions clearly go against the gun-ho grain here.


There's nothing special about staggered outputs, per se. Someone outside of myself thinks it's special as JL has sold quite a few amplifiers with staggered outputs. 

As far as sarcasm is concerned, I took a sarcastic tone from your post which is why I gave it back to you. Maybe you come off that way because that's what you expect to receive. I'll apologize, however, because that's not what I wanted to convey in this post. You do bring very valid points to the discussion.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rcurley55 said:


> I actually never stated that Audison was better - only that he would have to overcome the perceived value of an Audison (the name and associated quality) and be better technically (they already have a small, staggered power, hybrid, thermally efficient amplifier) for less money - unless of course being "Made in the USA" would drive enough people to pay more...
> 
> You have misread my statement - what he needs to do is provide more VALUE than his competitors - something that his target market is willing to pay for. I don't see where any of these propositions have delivered higher value than the competitors already out.
> 
> It's always a question of value - no one should enter unless they can deliver the same value for less money, or more value at the same price point - or even better, more value for less money - pretty simple.


Gotcha!


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

toolfan91 said:


> I just picked up a pair of KARs and IA20.1, but ill probably look at changing in another year just because... If you did come out with an amp like that, I can guarantee you I would buy it! Would the aesthetics match the Sundown SAZ-3000D?


Yes, I would match the aesthetics very closely to the SAZ / SAX amps.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Maybe we hsould take the time to define what high end means...
Is it just made in the USA and a high price?


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> Point taken. I think we're talking the definition of high-end now. Are you selling a high-end value in name or in service? Is he gonna sell a product or marketing hype?


That all depends on where he wants to be in the market - but it's already been decided that it will be a high end amplifier line - whenever something or someone wants to be high-end and command a certain price, there is a level of expectation - whether he meets that by providing a ton of value in performance, service, or just good marketing - it's up to him....If people in Japan value USA made amplifiers - well, then he's ahead of the game!



> There's nothing special about staggered outputs, per se. Someone outside of myself thinks it's special as JL has sold quite a few amplifiers with staggered outputs.


You are dead on - there is a market that appreciates it. My bet is that most of the 500/5's go to one amp systems with a set of comps up front, cheapy co-ax in the back, and one sub. The 450/4 go to front and rear speakers. JL has perfected the approach of targeting what people actually buy - the prefab box that works with the drop in speakers and the amplifiers to match - all looking nice and sounding pretty good - they hit that market perfectly and I'm sure their dealers are pretty stoked about their approach.

The high end SQ market though wants power, and lots of it. The only reason I could think of wanting less is to make a certain power rating in competition.



> As far as sarcasm is concerned, I took a sarcastic tone from your post which is why I gave it back to you. Maybe you come off that way because that's what you expect to receive. I'll apologize, however, because that's not what I wanted to convey in this post. You do bring very valid points to the discussion.


No sweat - as do you  Here's an e-beer for you!


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

AAAAAAA said:


> Maybe we hsould take the time to define what high end means...
> Is it just made in the USA and a high price?


that's all defined by the market imo - everyone sees high end as different. Your bling-blanger over at ca.com sees chrome baskets and blue led voltage readouts a hell of a lot differently then we do...

Jacob is the one who needs to define what high-end is to his customers


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

AAAAAAA said:


> Maybe we hsould take the time to define what high end means...
> Is it just made in the USA and a high price?


This will be a high quality USA engineered amp... since I have not set anything in stone yet I can't get much more specific. Suffice to say it would be competitive to any "similar" models out there today as far as quality and level of engineering behind it.

On that note... full-range Class-D looks VERY do-able... and I agree with you guys that SIZE is very critical for much of the market today, point taken.

As for everyone else commenting, I appreciate all the feedback!


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

x2 to whoever stated they need a clean signal. focus on the basics and make it with no crossovers. design a matching external crossover if you want.

just raw clean power in a small chassis.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

rcurley55 said:


> that's all defined by the market imo - everyone sees high end as different. Your bling-blanger over at ca.com sees chrome baskets and blue led voltage readouts a hell of a lot differently then we do...
> 
> Jacob is the one who needs to define what high-end is to his customers



Here we go bashing ca.com again....


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

Flipx99 said:


> Here we go bashing ca.com again....


You are right - inappropriate...let's say the bling-blangers on ANY car audio board...

but with threads like this on the first page:
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264634

it's hard not to judge - but it's not fair...


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

sundownz said:


> This will be a high quality USA engineered amp... since I have not set anything in stone yet I can't get much more specific. Suffice to say it would be competitive to any "similar" models out there today as far as quality and level of engineering behind it.
> 
> On that note... full-range Class-D looks VERY do-able... and I agree with you guys that SIZE is very critical for much of the market today, point taken.
> 
> As for everyone else commenting, I appreciate all the feedback!


Do you think it would be prudent to make them yourself?

Since I am unsure of the actual demand of these 6 channels, how hard would it be for your to build them one at a time with your own hands. (Please excuse if this questions is totally off base, as I have no idea what is required to build an amp. I am just thinking of your market. 1) high end SQ 2) Made in USA 3)Not extremely high demand)


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

rcurley55 said:


> You are right - inappropriate...let's say the bling-blangers on ANY car audio board...
> 
> but with threads like this on the first page:
> http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264634
> ...


that guy spammed up sounddomain too.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

Flipx99 said:


> Do you think it would be prudent to make them yourself?
> 
> Since I am unsure of the actual demand of these 6 channels, how hard would it be for your to build them one at a time with your own hands. (Please excuse if this questions is totally off base, as I have no idea what is required to build an amp. I am just thinking of your market. 1) high end SQ 2) Made in USA 3)Not extremely high demand)


ooh, a DIY AMP BUILDING KIT!!!   

i've seen the kits for HT amps, why not for cars? it included everything you need and instructions to assemble.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

rcurley55 said:


> You are right - inappropriate...let's say the bling-blangers on ANY car audio board...
> 
> but with threads like this on the first page:
> http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264634
> ...



This site has never been spammed?

I know ca.com has its share of misfits, but people don't think about how large it really it. We have many tines the active membership here....there are gonna be some bad apples and bad threads. but occasionly, there are some very good, insightful threads that are at a content appropriate level....where people actually learn things.

Sometimes people have a hard time here because we don't have the necessary background info.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Flipx99 said:


> Do you think it would be prudent to make them yourself?
> 
> Since I am unsure of the actual demand of these 6 channels, how hard would it be for your to build them one at a time with your own hands. (Please excuse if this questions is totally off base, as I have no idea what is required to build an amp. I am just thinking of your market. 1) high end SQ 2) Made in USA 3)Not extremely high demand)


Not really  I am extremely busy as it is and I would never be able to assemble them myself, at best I'd have to hire someone to do it which would end up costing me more than making a full run at a time and just sitting on them for a while.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Thumper26 said:


> ooh, a DIY AMP BUILDING KIT!!!
> 
> i've seen the kits for HT amps, why not for cars? it included everything you need and instructions to assemble.


Well, I meant Jacob make them himself.

But with a heat sink, I can get my dad to powdercoat it any color of the rainbow...with this epoxy paint.

They got some paint that is stronger than metal and can stop a bullet.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

sundownz said:


> Not really  I am extremely busy as it is and I would never be able to assemble them myself, at best I'd have to hire someone to do it which would end up costing me more than making a full run at a time and just sitting on them for a while.


Think along Thumper's line...how long / hard would it be for someone to build it themself?


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Flipx99 said:


> Think along Thumper's line...how long / hard would it be for someone to build it themself?


It would take quite a while if they were to solder every component to the board. Might be even more headache for me when people call due to lost, misplaced, and/or overheated parts (if they are unskilled @ soldering). Most folks would also be unable to solder the larger transformers to the board, 90% of irons your normal person has just won't do it effectively.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I see.

I wish you where in a spot where you could devote your livlihood to this....where you could offer such an opportunity to customers.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Flipx99 said:


> I see.
> 
> I wish you where in a spot where you could devote your livlihood to this....where you could offer such an opportunity to customers.


I do, in fact, do this for a living  But do not have the resources to offer a DIY amp kit. At least not at this time.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I do, in fact, do this for a living  But do not have the resources to offer a DIY amp kit. At least not at this time.


oh, I thought you also worked at a factory getting shipments of some sort as well.


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## Infinity (Jun 28, 2005)

Jake, it looks like people are still requesting the same amp I asked for a year ago at SS. I still want a multi-channel class-D. The reduction in size is worth the "perceived" difference in SQ.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Flipx99 said:


> oh, I thought you also worked at a factory getting shipments of some sort as well.


I did until June  I'm a full time guy now! I stay really busy as it is, hence the reason for going full time.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

2x


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Try some professinal consulting firms. They can do all the research and give you feedback on the market, amp designs ect ect. I believe Dan Wiggins aka adire audio is now a consultant for audio eletronics builing firm. GL!


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Thumper26 said:


> ooh, a DIY AMP BUILDING KIT!!!
> 
> i've seen the kits for HT amps, why not for cars? it included everything you need and instructions to assemble.


Because nobody wants them - I did some extensive market research on this a couple years ago. I still have a lot of parts "in waiting" for these DIY amps, if you want them.


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## Jack Watts (Sep 26, 2007)

I didn't make it through 12 pages of this thread, but I'll offer my thoughts as a pretty new entrant into the car audio realm. I almost made this same post to the other amp thread, but I'll make it here.

I can certainly appreciate a product that is well-engineered and carefully produced. My long experience with European cars has made me fully appreciate having 45 well engineered parts perform the same function as 6.....

That said, there has to be a tangible benefit for me to pay more/a premium price for something. For a car amp, here would be my general requirements, in no particular order: 
-no (audible) noise
-adequate power below audible distortion
-reliable in a car environment (varying voltage supply/heat/vibration
-repairable

An additional concern would certainly be (for me) the working conditions of those making the product. That's a complex question issue, though, and is often just used as an excuse for xenophobia, IMHO. I'm not going to 'buy American' for the sake of buying American. I've seen first hand American manufacturing facilities with questionable safety standards, very low relative wages (and, ironically enough, very few legal residents actually in employ--if only the 'buy American at any cost could see it). Note, this wasn't in the audio biz. Also, I wouldn't rule out anything made in China based solely on this concern. 

The other thing worth noting: I'd be interested in an amp that didn't have any processing capabilities at all--no eq, no x-over, etc. That's what my processor's for, and there's at least the perception that I'm paying for something twice....

So there it is. I'd be willing to pay a premium price, but it would have to be demonstrably better in some/all of the above criteria. Note that 'sounding better' isn't one of them.... Even if it's 'better', just 'knowing that it's better' isn't enough--for me at least.


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## audiguy (Jul 30, 2007)

I vote:

D, Ice config

2 and 4 ch.

no extra electronics, i.e., bass boost or x-overs

I'd pay a buck to buck fifty a watt if it is good.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

Jacob,
Just my $.02.
My guess is that most people spending a grand on an amp are probably using signal processing that has xover and T/A functions already. So I think just a "straight wire with gain" would go over well.
If you only made one amp then maybe a 5 or 7 channel. Only because I suspect in this price range these people may want matching amps if they have to have more than one amp. Or might you make 2 amps, one being a sub amp, maybe even mono. I do like the staggered power concept. No reason to feed the tweeters the same power as midbasses. Something +-
5 channel: 50 X 2; 150 x 2; 300 to 500 x 1
7 channel: 50 X 2; 100 x 2; 200 x 2; 300 to 500 x 1

Or a 4 and 6 channel + sub amp:
4 channel: 75 X 2; 200 x 2
6 channel: 50 X 2; 100 x 2; 200 x 2
mono sub amp: 300 to 500

Or how about just duplicating one of the old Linear Power amps?


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## toolfan91 (Dec 7, 2005)

sundownz said:


> Yes, I would match the aesthetics very closely to the SAZ / SAX amps.


Awesome, Ill be looking forward to seeing what comes of this


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## Ga foo 88 (Dec 18, 2005)

4 channel with 100 x 2 @4, and 200 x 2 @4 ;or a 5 channel with same specs as 4 channel and about 1k on the 5th channel. It would atleast be something different.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Perhaps you could offer different heatsink colors, it sounds stupid at first, but some people do like to try and match the color of their interior or of the car... or to try and conceil it a bit.


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## Need-sq (May 26, 2007)

I agree!!!! No processing of any kind. Just an amplifier that does what it's supposed to do, but do it very well and do alot of it. Amplify


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Need-sq said:


> I agree!!!! No processing of any kind. Just an amplifier that does what it's supposed to do, but do it very well and do alot of it. Amplify


I doubt I will go crossover-free on the amp, it will really limit the appeal to people with advanced dedicated processing. Even many high-end HUs leave much to be desired and having some crossover function on the amp is quite desirable. 

Now what I WILL do is have the crossovers be truly switchable -- except perhaps the subsonic on channels 5-6 which could be turned down to 10 Hz anyhow to effectively "remove" it from really doing anything -- like my current SAX-100.4 model.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

I VOTE MAN UP AND MAKE a head unit w/ digi out goes to a 5 or 7 channel amp w/ built in digi proc. Control the digi proc from the headunit. Kinda like the new ODR stuff         , but with one amp that can do it all and not a 25k price tag I have a boner already. Expensive it will be but worth it done correctly.


Think how easy it would be...install the head unit, the amp, one power run, and speaker wire your DONE. No distro blocks, no rcas, one relays, OMG PLEASE


If I had the capital to do this I would be making a product like that right now...to bad I;m still a college student lol


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

The IDEAL high end amp (especially for a mult channel), would have a modular input section, but I know that the build house you're working with don't do that (assuming it's the same buildhouse as the other amps). 

Zed did some years ago with the Gen X series of Hifonics amps, IIRC. 

Sell the amp with straight line level inputs. Cheapest route.

Sell plug input modules that include the xovers in them. that way people could customize as they need. 3-way active up front, front+rear+sub, 2-way + sub, etc...

Sell balanced inputs for those that need them.

The biggie (best, but also most difficult to implement, and the smallest market), would be digital inputs on the amps, with a remote mounted volume control.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm not using the same build-house for this model 

Got any links to what you are talking about Thor?


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

Goliath X










Modular input board










Different boards/same amp




















this one was a parametric eq...


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Very interesting... I'll look into that.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*Thoraudio, I like that idea.

My POV is that yes, there maybe a decent amount of 5+ channel amps out there, but there seems to be a strong division of them based upon price between two groups. There are the upper crust amplifiers that are out of reach price wise to 98% of the masses, then there are a good number of cheaply built and cheaply priced 5+ channel amps out there, but they don't really cater to the market that Sundown seems to be thriving in from my perspective. 

Jacob has developed a strong main amplifier line in the SAZ/SAX models. They have the quality and performance of many other amplifier models in the market of the Zapco (reference) level type of amplifiers, but at a more attractive price and the ability of direct contact with the owner of the company.

Not including the ZED burr brown amps, the upper crust amps will stay out of reach for most DIY'ers (including us here), and I think the Made in the USA cost factor might kick the proposed flagship line right into the out of reach category. Sundown has done well and is succeeding at building high quality amps that can compete with the Zapcos' and US Amps etc. at a better price. So if I was an advisor to Jacob, I would say move forward on a multi-channel amp of 5-channels or more in the SAX line and keep the same great build of the current SAX amps and along the same pricing. 

I feel it might be too early to go with a very pricey model, this way, by building the multi-channel that people have been clamering for, Jacob could test the waters for the future. Meaning if people were saying "I love the SAX-250.6" (the model I have joked about in the past in the Sundown forum), "but I wish it had yadda yadda feature or more power", then Jacob could see there is enough demand to start that "SAF" line. Just an idea. I honestly feel once the SAE line is flushed out and people get to see the great price/performance of the line, they will out sell the SAX/SAZ amps.*


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I spoke with them for a while... but they blew me off after a while, presumably since I'm a small venture and wasn't jumping to immediatly order parts. I'll give it another shot


Funny, they did the same thing to me a few years ago. This was right after B&O purchased the rights to the technology. I was seriously contemplating a small line of automotive amplifiers based on the ICE-POWER demo modules. At that time Class D sub amps were just coming to market. Nothing like a full range automotive switched mode amp existed. I thought this could very well be my nitch. They though I was just some jerk off and would not give me the time of day. Now I see they are selling off the rights to use this design to the high rollers.

I didn't think I could compete selling a conventional class A/B design or a class D so gave up my aspirations.

Ge0


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> I didn't think I could compete selling a conventional class A/B design or a class D so gave up my aspirations.
> 
> Ge0


you, me, and a couple hundred other car audio geeks  

I actually had investors and a lawyer lined up to get the LP name and designs from Dharmatronics when they shuttered them a couple of years ago.... couldn't ever get somebody from Dharma to talk to us.... and it ended up with TIPS. 

Probably a headache I couldn't have afforded anyway


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Jacob,

I think there's a niche for small-footprint ICEpower amps but there is a difference in quality levels I believe amongst the current offerings. So just because amp brand A or B may say "ICEPower Full-Range" they may not be the same quality level. 

I cast one vote that says build high-SQ value priced icepower amps that have adequate sound-quality and minimal noise floors and good connection points and build quality.. Crucial to have small foot-print designs in 2 channels and 4 channel full-range. Make them competitive with PDX's and XA eclipses or Premier amps at better than Alpine or Eclipse pricing, and I think they will catch on.. 

I wonder if these ICEpower amps are less costly to build than standard A/B class of comparable power and specs? hmm

Just a thought anyway.. My searches have been revolving around all these new full-range class-D's that aren't huge monsters, for stealthy installs.. I could NOT care less about big bling bling amps.. I'm going to hide the silly thing so it doesn't get jacked, and the bling bling I hope will be on my ear-drums.  So to me, plain-jane euro-styling no-flash but serious build and sound quality is my perception of a good hifi piece.

 my 2 cents!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Oh and I also agree... NO processing.. No x-overs, no nothing but gains.. All that stuff does is add to costs. Good binding posts though.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Babs said:


> Oh and I also agree... NO processing.. No x-overs, no nothing but gains.. All that stuff does is add to costs. Good binding posts though.




No gains, just attenuator, should require only .7 or 1 or 1.4 volts drive for full output.

If a amp has gain [say 200mv for full output], it will have the potential to add noise. 

Nobody runs their amps input into the gain range on this forum, right 

So why have gain on a amps input section, as most everything on the market have enough drive to start with[1,2,3,4,5,6,7 or 8 volts, you know the brands].


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Sorry.. my ignorance.. Agreed.. just attenuation. Thanks for the correction.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

I doubt I'll do it without crossovers -- many people that want the amp will want some or all of the crossovers. What I will do is have them be truly defeatable. Perhaps even removable like the setup Thoraudio posted... so I can ship them without crossovers if you like.


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I doubt I'll do it without crossovers -- many people that want the amp will want some or all of the crossovers. What I will do is have them be truly defeatable. Perhaps even removable like the setup Thoraudio posted... so I can ship them without crossovers if you like.


*CoughBandPassCough*

mmm, pardon me


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

DejaWiz said:


> *CoughBandPassCough*
> 
> mmm, pardon me


Of course... the plan was:

CH 1 + 2 = HP
CH 3 + 4 = HP / LP / BP
CH 5 + 6 = LP / Subsonic @ 10 - 80 Hz

So 5 + 6 are also bandpassable and a subsonic is present for use as a subwoofer channel, and can act as an HPF up to 80 Hz.

The crossovers would have silk screened dots to show what frequency you are at when turning the knobs too


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

sundownz said:


> Of course... the plan was:
> 
> CH 1 + 2 = HP
> CH 3 + 4 = HP / LP / BP
> ...


Excellent!

If it's cost feasible, how about a digital display to show what the set frequencies are?


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

DejaWiz said:


> Excellent!
> 
> If it's cost feasible, how about a digital display to show what the set frequencies are?


That would raise cost alot... silk screened dots will have to do it  I'll include plenty of them with a reference in the manual to what dot = what frequency (so I'm not trying to cram 20 notations around the knob).


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

and have it accept bannana plugs


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

internecine said:


> and have it accept bannana plugs


Never thought about that... I don't imagine a larger number of people want that? Or do they?


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

honestly i'd be excited if an amp if those stature came out. under 20" in length too, lol.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

sundownz said:


> Never thought about that... I don't imagine a larger number of people want that? Or do they?


I'd prefer speakon connections myself.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

sundownz said:


> Of course... the plan was:
> 
> CH 1 + 2 = HP
> CH 3 + 4 = HP / LP / BP
> ...


Yeah I also concur... I take back my 'no xover' statement... 

If the frequencies would allow going completely active with tweets, mids and sub, I definitely see value in that... I don't think I could name many amps at all that allow active components, but I may just not have been looking.

I do think though it's redundant for the guys running any kind of processing such as an H701 or 3sixty.2 or H650 or 880 head units or similar. But if guys want crossovers, but don't care anything about TA or EQ, I could see it.


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

Babs said:


> I do think though it's redundant for the guys running any kind of processing such as an H701 or 3sixty.2 or H650 or 880 head units or similar. But if guys want crossovers, but don't care anything about TA or EQ, I could see it.


I agree it would be redundant for those particular individuals, but I see it as a fall-back for in between upgrades or for someone that really really likes their basic HU and isn't ready to or can't yet afford to step up to the next level.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

hmmm.. If the x-overs can be active then, it may give some nice options for different head units that don't have the HP active capability but still have TA. It does present more head unit options.. Like possibly the 980BT instead of the 880... Still nice dac's and TA and bluetooth, for one example... Or quite a few more that have TA and some EQ but just won't run "active" for tweet/mids.

Wouldn't need the 9887, a 9885 would do.
Wouldn't need the CD7100, a 5100 would do.

I definitely see your point.


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

Babs said:


> Wouldn't need the 9887, a 9885 would do.
> Wouldn't need the CD7100, a 5100 would do.
> 
> I definitely see your point.


Bingo! And Jacob's target audience suddenly becomes broader.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

*w00t*

I have a 3Sixty.2 and you do need to add a bit of crossover functionality on top of it in order to do 3-way active AND sub  So even the advanced units aren't always complete.

I'm looking hard into this design... wish it could be sooner, but it is a long-term project (1-2 years) -- still appreciate all the input!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

1. Excellent.. by then I might actually be able to sure enough DO something with my system.

2. That 3sixty.2 unit... off-topic sorry.. might be better for off-line.. How do you like that thing in terms of SQ (pure signal purity, etc).. I'm seeing fair deals on them.

3. I saw some posts ago not too much response from I think B&O or someone else, but have you ruled out ICEpower or other class-D or H or similar designs? Going standard class A/B for the full-range stuff?

4. Helpin' you out if I can, man... Gave Sundown a plug in another thread looking for SQ amps today.  

... But I gotta tell you, looking at this SAX-1004.. Man, who needs more?? That thing looks FINE to all but the snootiest of hifi car-sound-o'-philes. No offense to those guys of course, I love overkill hifi, but this amp as is looks like all the amp I personally could ever want....


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

2) I like the 3Sixty.2 -- it has a noise floor issue which I resolved by tweaking my gains. It was hissing on me at first. Also had a nasty turn-off pop that I solved with a Navone delay unit.

3) Maybe Ice-Power... maybe another full range Class-D type topology. Not set in stone yet.

The SAX-100.4 has been very well received and I really like it  I've sold quite a few of them and everyone has been very pleased with it. It and the SAX-100.2 do run a bit warm, but I am re-tooling the SAX/SAZ casing next year to make them run a great deal cooler under the toughest loads! I actually sold one to an Audison dealer after he reviewed it on the ROE forum for me, he seemed to really like it.

I just revised the crossovers a bit on it as well so the subsonic goes from 10 - 500 Hz allowing a very flexible bandpass setup. I am working on a way to fit 24dB slopes onto the crossover board... that may call for re-tooling, but I hope to get that implemented towards the end of 2008 or so.


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

sundownz said:


> 2)
> I just revised the crossovers a bit on it as well so the subsonic goes from 10 - 500 Hz allowing a very flexible bandpass setup. I am working on a way to fit 24dB slopes onto the crossover board... that may call for re-tooling, but I hope to get that implemented towards the end of 2008 or so.


aw man, it sounds like i need to sell my new 100.4 now while their still hot so i can get this upgraded one! a 24db slope would be nice right now.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

BassBaller5 said:


> aw man, it sounds like i need to sell my new 100.4 now while their still hot so i can get this upgraded one! a 24db slope would be nice right now.


Don't go selling it yet  It'll be towards the end of 2008 for the 24 dB slopes and revised heatsink.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Babs said:


> I gotta tell you, looking at this SAX-1004.. Man, who needs more?? That thing looks FINE to all but the snootiest of hifi car-sound-o'-philes. No offense to those guys of course, I love overkill hifi, but this amp as is looks like all the amp I personally could ever want....



Side note:::::

I'm not sure but want to point out that in a lot of dual torid amps that claim daul power supply don't mean dual mono block or dual stereo[in 4 ch amps]. 

Most of the time when there is dual torids there is only "one chip" controlling[not a dual controller] the whole supply section, where the DC input is split acrossed two sets of fets and riods and diodes and filter caps , just to have the outputs of both sides of the power supply tied back together to make ONE jumbo power supply.

Just wanted to toss that out.....not a big deal.....fine don't worry about.....forget I said anything.....


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Diru said:


> Side note:::::
> 
> I'm not sure but want to point out that in a lot of dual torid amps that claim daul power supply don't mean dual mono block or dual stereo[in 4 ch amps].
> 
> ...


If you're not regulating the supply - it doesn't matter if one chip control both transformers. It's the fact that there are separate windings for each par of channels that decreases crosstalk. It also helps distribute power distribution to more PCB and heatsink area (FETs).


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

sundownz said:


> Don't go selling it yet  It'll be towards the end of 2008 for the 24 dB slopes and revised heatsink.


Quick question: What does Sundown mean? THe name certainly stands out among brands whose names sound like a B-Class Sci-Fi movie.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

my bad


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

ezaudio said:


> Quick question: What does Sundown mean? THe name certainly stands out among brands whose names sound like a B-Class Sci-Fi movie.


Interesting story really... I've been using Sundown as a screen name online for countless years. The "sundownz" name that you see is from when I signed up somewhere and "sundown" with no additions was taken -- it sort of stuck so I use it all the time now.

I originally got the name "Sundown" from a song I like when I was kid -- my Dad has a big record collection and it was a song by "The Outlaws" who are a somewhat country sounding Southern Rock band from the 70s. I liked one song in particular:

http://www.allsouthernrock.com/modules.php?name=Lyrics&file=song&c_id=90

I used it as a name for characters in various online games as well -- played an MMORPG, Ultima Online, for about 4 years with the name 

Anyhow... the name really stuck so I named my company after it!


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

sundownz said:


> played an MMORPG, Ultima Online, for about 4 years with the name


Richard Garriott is the shiz!


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

I dont know as the DD Audio DDS4 4-channel amp seems hard to beat, and at 1/2 the price. I would say its high quality equipment and very versatile...
http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/amp/amp.asp?series=S


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

ezaudio said:


> If you're not regulating the supply - it doesn't matter if one chip control both transformers. It's the fact that there are separate windings for each par of channels that decreases crosstalk. It also helps distribute power distribution to more PCB and heatsink area (FETs).



This would be FACT if there were a true dual supply, with dual controllers.

"It's the fact that there are separate windings for each par of channels that decreases crosstalk"

But this in not the case, the general rule in dual roid supplies is not to help the cross talk. This can be seen on most every amp on the market today as one big combined power supply{hence the single controller chip}. You will find the output after the rectumfires and/or after the filter caps are tied together. 

Meaning, there is one sample point for the controller chip to use to know what the power supply is doing in its over all operation[regulated or not]. Hense , both roid/friod/capzatator sections have got to be tied together at the output[rails what ever and crap].

Example: make this work.4 ch amp dual supply

One supply control chip.

Two sets of fets, riods, friods and caps.

Common 12 DC supply source.

Keep the output of both supplies seperated, sample from ch 1,2 or 3,4 rails. The controller needs to know what its doing.

Can it be done?

Sure if you like to try and use comparators on both outputs, you could get it done. 

But, here is the ***** of it. Running say ch 1,2 on tweeters and 3,4 on a midbass, you just hit a loud note[fast slow long short no matter] the output for the rails on 3,4 dip, the controller would increase the rails voltage for 3,4, and at the same time 1,2 would come up to. Not cool, could it be audible in the right happenstance, yes.

Am I rambling, maybe


There are other examples of amps that even parallel the input side of dual roids along with the output side.

Now I am rambling.

Im hungery...........


Ok didn't eat, was reading my own drivel. 

I even concluded to myself you can't have dual supply outputs with a singal control chip. You would need 2 sets of outputs from the chip to drive 2 sets of mosfets. 

So dual riods, just means one big power supply.




Now tell me there is dual controller chip[who made it and whats the part numbers, better still the pdf of the operation sheet] then I would believe you.



Now it is time to eat.............EDIT: I get cranky when I don't eat


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Diru said:


> This would be FACT if there were a true dual supply, with dual controllers.
> 
> "It's the fact that there are separate windings for each par of channels that decreases crosstalk"
> 
> ...


I can't really understand what you're trying to say, but I can see some oversimplifications.

The chips used in most car amplifiers are the TL494/594 and the SG3524/5. Some, like Xtant and PG, used CMC (current mode control) with an 8 pin chip whose name escapes me at the moment...
One of these aforementioned chips has two antiphase outputs. You can control 2 or 200 FETs from these outputs (provided there is support circuitry). You can drive a dual transformer, dual secondary output or dual transformer, single secondary output. You can regulate both at the same time, but it's not advisable for the former as the connected amplifier may not call for increased current and will wind up being "overvoltaged".

I don't care if you believe me or not: You prefer to be smug, and I don't. I couldn't care less.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

ezaudio said:


> I can't really understand what you're trying to say, but I can see some oversimplifications.
> 
> The chips used in most car amplifiers are the TL494/594 and the SG3524/5. Some, like Xtant and PG, used CMC (current mode control) with an 8 pin chip whose name escapes me at the moment...
> One of these aforementioned chips has two antiphase outputs. You can control 2 or 200 FETs from these outputs (provided there is support circuitry). You can drive a dual transformer, dual secondary output or dual transformer, single secondary output. You can regulate both at the same time, but it's not advisable for the former as the connected amplifier may not call for increased current and will wind up being "overvoltaged".
> ...




Smug as a bug in a rug, sure. 

You calling me smug is equal to saying, your not sure.

I thought my statment was rather clear.

But, I'm not into name calling. 

So anyways can I make you a sandwitch.


Oh yeah Q/nQ outputs yeah I follow. 

Your right it doesn't matter how many thousand fets you put on the output with the right driver setup. 

Sure you can drive two sets of roids like that, but tell me again how you are going to measure the output of that dual supply with one chip.

So who utilizes that or any chips in the manor you are speaking about.

With the Q/nQ to support dual riods for this afore function to help in channel seperation[crosstalk].

What would you like tuna fish or egg salad?


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Diru said:


> Smug as a bug in a rug, sure.
> 
> You calling me smug is equal to saying, your not sure.
> 
> ...



It doesn't measure two individual supplies with one chip - at least not accurately. But you can build a dual rail supply with two transformers for twice the current and monitor with one chip. 

Who uses them? That would be 99% of amp manufacturers. Maybe more, but you guys don't like facts around here without inerrant proof.

Q/Qnot has nothing to do with dual toroids in a PP SMPS. Surely you know this.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

ezaudio said:


> It doesn't measure two individual supplies with one chip - at least not accurately. But you can build a dual rail supply with two transformers for twice the current and monitor with one chip.
> 
> Who uses them? That would be 99% of amp manufacturers. Maybe more, but you guys don't like facts around here without inerrant proof.
> 
> Q/Qnot has nothing to do with dual toroids in a PP SMPS. Surely you know this.



Pipe it. Don't you talk down to me, mister fact this.

How do you get this better crosstalk reduction with dual roids with one chip. 

Riddle me this.

You made the statement now back it up. 

I have a feeling you can't find the time to mess with a small minded common man.

I know there are a ton of dual roids on the market, but who are the ones that use it to make your statement true. 

Even it you did take the time you might find your statement false and nonfactual.

I don't want facts, if I wanted you to read me a book. I would have asked for milk and cookies before you tuck me in.

I want to know what is being used in real life, not whats on a EE's note book.

I wanted facts I got the internet too hunny, so what is the truth.


I just like to say this one thing, I did like your idea and getting the jump on the market with your Behringer 12vdc converter[cool as **** yes]. But at this point I think I will make my own thanks. 

How about a baloney sandwitch? You like mouseturd or mansuace on that?

The one thing thats going to make me SMUG is this. 

I stated everything in your rebutthole. So you are telling me what I told you. Why? I don't want to know. Don't answer. You know what, you can't stop yourself, you will make a comment to my comment right here to this paragraph. You want to know why, you can't stop yourself. 

Your bloated ego.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Diru said:


> Pipe it. Don't you talk down to me, mister fact this.
> 
> How do you get this better crosstalk reduction with dual roids with one chip.
> 
> ...



What exactly are you wanting to know? You seem to just want some descriptions? You write in riddles and it's hard to understand you. 

I've drawn the three most common ways to use a dual toroid power supply with a single controller. I don't have a lot of time to explain everything, but the captions should help make the diagram clear. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. And show *some* respect, please. 

Diagram "Dual mono" is the design which will give better crosstalk numbers. The reason is because each channel has its own low impedance supply that is not being modulated by the other channel's current requirements. So, if you have a two channel amp, with a tweeter on one channel and a woofer on the other; there will be different current requirements on most types of music. In standard stereo setups, this is something that definitely shows up in testing (interchannel distortion) and can affect what you hear as a blurred stereo image.

I've seen a good deal of the Dual Mono and Hi Current designs. The High Voltage design is less common for practical car audio purposes. For example, Kenwood Excelon 400M (older amp) uses on the High Current design. Any designated Dual Mono construction with a single PWM IC is likely the Dual Mono schematic.

The point of my argument is that there are more than "two toroids" to these power supplies. The configuration can differ and that will make a different design style.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2007)

might want to _ground_ the sources of your switching FETs, if you expect any output power at all


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2007)

i think (call it an educated guess) that Diru's point is this :

In the "dual mono" example, if you wanted to feedback the output voltage for PWM regulation ... which output supply do you choose? The controller may only have one feedback point, and it certainly can't control the pulse widths of the two supplies independently.

Now picking one of the two independent supplies for PWM regulation may be fine, as far as regulating relative to _input supply_ fluctuation ... since input supply fluctuation will indeed be common to both. But _load_ demands will _not_ be common to both.

In a nutshell ... a single controller does not offer independent _load_ regulation for separate supplies.

The circuits i've seen that generate independent, regulated supplies do so by using separate controller chips. The seperate controllers are frequency-locked (to avoid beating/intermod), but allow for seperate/independent pulse width control.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

werewolf said:


> i think (call it an educated guess) that Diru's point is this :
> 
> In the "dual mono" example, if you wanted to feedback the output voltage for PWM regulation ... which output supply do you choose? The controller may only have one feedback point, and it certainly can't control the pulse widths of the two supplies independently.
> 
> ...



 Luv yea man.........

Care needs to be taken cause I am the nut in the shell.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

werewolf said:


> might want to _ground_ the sources of your switching FETs, if you expect any output power at all


Of course. The point isn't to look at details of the primary side, anyway.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

Hey Jacob,
Any news to share on your wonderfully evil plans?

I remembered this thread after reading a discussion over at ca.com. Anyway, I think a 5 or 6 channel staggered ICEpowered or full range Class D amp might be the way to go if production costs aren't through the roof.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

re: crosstalk

I think there is improper use of this term in this thread.

You will have to give it more thought.

Hint:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosstalk


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

thylantyr said:


> re: crosstalk
> 
> I think there is improper use of this term in this thread.
> 
> ...



Consider an amplifier designer to know what the hell it means.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

DejaWiz said:


> Hey Jacob,
> Any news to share on your wonderfully evil plans?
> 
> I remembered this thread after reading a discussion over at ca.com. Anyway, I think a 5 or 6 channel staggered ICEpowered or full range Class D amp might be the way to go if production costs aren't through the roof.


I have alot of plans -- the economy being slow is holding back sales, and hence capital to invest, a bit  I need to expand my "basic" offerings a bit more before venturing too much into the high end. But, keep your eyes peeled over the next few years!


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

sundownz said:


> I have alot of plans -- the economy being slow is holding back sales, and hence capital to invest, a bit  I need to expand my "basic" offerings a bit more before venturing too much into the high end. But, keep your eyes peeled over the next few years!


Good idea. Needs for this kind of thing will never go away. I planned to do a similar thing, but decided to accept a contract for designing/manufacturing switching 1kW bass-guitar amplifiers with offline SMPS. Seems there is a lot of junk on the market that are EMI-spewing infernos.


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## DejaWiz (Sep 20, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I have alot of plans -- the economy being slow is holding back sales, and hence capital to invest, a bit  I need to expand my "basic" offerings a bit more before venturing too much into the high end. But, keep your eyes peeled over the next few years!


Yeah, the economy sucks right now. Cost of living is way up and wages just suck. If only we all weren't paying 3x what we should be for gas and oil alone, things would probably be a lot better. Anyway, I'll be waiting patiently to see what concoction you happen to come up with.


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