# In-Wall



## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

So, I have the bug to build an "invisible 7.1 theater".

Meaning all in-walls.

I am looking at two speaker series: Noble and Klipsch

7 of the Noble Fidelity L-82

In wall loudspeaker L-82 from Noble Fidelity

or 

Klipsch THX line up, namely:
1 pair kl6504thx (L+R)
3 each kl6502thx (middle and sides)
1 pair ks7800thx (rears)

Primary use will be movies and occasional music.

Room is 12' wide x 23.5' long.

For power and processing, I am using a Denon AVR-4311CI - with Audyssey for Time alignment and equalization and a Arcam FMJ-P7.

I've listened to the Klipsch which sound great. Have yet to have a chance to listen to the Nobles, but they have incredible reviews. What would you do differently speaker wise? Which would you use?

Have yet to figure out subs (I do have a couple of 8" Peerless kicking around I could build enclosures in the wall for)... need ideas, please.

I already own the amp and receiver. I also have all the accoutrements, like a big screen, playstation 3, media computer, etc.

Pics, since most people like 'em. The fireplace looking section is where the audio equipment will go, but be in the other room for cooling and noise purposes. I have a media computer that can get noisy.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

How deep are your 8" subs?


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> How deep are your 8" subs?


Thanks, but I opted to build sub boxes in the wall behind the room. I now have 2 Planet Audio 10" and 1 Polk DX 12" sub in wall. I used what I had kicking around. Should sound decent with 400w of Carver power going to each sub.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

what are you doing for the floor? You will not get great bass on a concrete floor (non-suspended)


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Check these out: JBL :: Product


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Have you looked into B&W. I was always a big Klipsch fan. Now I have some B&Ws and love them. Heard good things about their in walls too!


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

SSSnake said:


> Check these out: JBL :: Product


why? this is a 70V commercial grade PA type speaker. It is not a subwoofer.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

I would totally build some DIY speakers. W/o having to worry about enclosure finishing, it would be easy as pie. Just find a really good design online. Check diyaudio, PE techtalk, or avsforum, etc. That plus an IB sub setup (maybe even use all those subs you mentioned, but usually cone area is vital for IB) into a closet or adjacent room would be amazing. Just a thought.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> what are you doing for the floor? You will not get great bass on a concrete floor (non-suspended)


Carpet with serious pad.



Old Skewl said:


> Have you looked into B&W. I was always a big Klipsch fan. Now I have some B&Ws and love them. Heard good things about their in walls too!


I bought the Klipsch's. I wish I could afford all the B&W's I wanted, but can't.

Subs are in, as well. I'll be dropping the center channel, since I am not a fan of the acoustically transparent projector screen material, which is what that speaker placement was originally for.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

Now I need to find a set of 12"x12" speaker grills. I'd prefer something with a white edge, like I have in the Klipsch's.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> why? this is a 70V commercial grade PA type speaker. It is not a subwoofer.


Sorry that I linked the version with the trasnformer but the 322Cs (vice 322CTs) are outstanding in wall coaxs. Very dynamic and possess controlled diretivity which I find to be a large plus with imaging. I highly recommend them.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

Grendel said:


> Now I need to find a set of 12"x12" speaker grills. I'd prefer something with a white edge, like I have in the Klipsch's.


A few words of advice (this is what I do for a living):

1) Definitely attach some sound absorbing material to the side walls next to your front speakers. I recommend 1" Owens Corning 703 wrapped in fabric of your choice. You need to control that early reflection. The speakers are too close to the sides, I understand you had no choice.

2) Make absolutely SURE that you seal the subwoofer from the back room behind the wall. You make think the sub is firing into the room and will be fine, but you will be shocked at the bass difference when it is sealed versus when it is not. I speak from much experience.

3) If you use carpet pad, don't get foam. There is a type that is like a wool, it is actually less expensive, it looks like thick felt. It has much better properties. However, I really recommend a floating plywood floor or you will not get great bass. If you have no choice then float the seating section. If you can't do that then run some heavy guage wire for a transducer to the couch for low bass. 

For grilles you can buy sheets of 12x12 from home depot and paint. Lets see the back of the room. You should do some diffusors there I can tell you how on the cheap.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

Oh and I strongly recommend you paint that front wall black. Flat black preferred. That orange is going to throw off the image by reflecting a lot of red onto the screen. Your image will really pop with a black wall. Or you can line the front wall with this and not only improve the room's sound quality a lot but also create that flat black look. Just trim the edges. This is not expensive and it is safe.

http://www.certainteed.com/products/insulation/index/317383

What is the projector and screen type?


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## jawn swagg3r (Aug 29, 2011)

Yeah i had a red theater room and it really affected the image. I have an in-wall (invisible) 5.1 system i had professionally put in and it's great. I really wish i would've gone with the DIY route though.

A suggestion- have you contacted Klipsch and seen if you could get "replacement" grilles for the speakers that you got that you could use for the other, so they all would match?


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

Grendel said:


> Carpet with serious pad.
> 
> 
> 
> I bought the Klipsch's. I wish I could afford all the B&W's I wanted, but can't.


I have to tell you being an industry veteran, the whole in-wall speaker market is a huge cash cow. 80% of the speaker's cost is in the cabinet but do in-walls cost 80% less? Hell no. People shell out a lot of money for a bunch of drivers and it's sound is holy dictated by how it is installed, and if infinite baffle, how the wall is treated internally. So you buy all these expensive drivers and them attach them to sheetrock... which is a joke really... I'd be happy if I were you that you didn't spend even more on B&W's. You want them to sound better then treat the wall behind them. Treat the room. Installing super high end drivers in a sheetrock wall right next to a side wall in a rectangular room that has a concrete floor and parallel walls is like installing a $9000 set of Ceramic brakes on a Kia Rio and expecting it to stop a lot faster. I think your Klipsch are more than enough. I have done rooms that sound PHENOMENOL using $50 in-walls.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> I have to tell you being an industry veteran, the whole in-wall speaker market is a huge cash cow. 80% of the speaker's cost is in the cabinet but do in-walls cost 80% less? Hell no. People shell out a lot of money for a bunch of drivers and it's sound is holy dictated by how it is installed, and if infinite baffle, how the wall is treated internally. So you buy all these expensive drivers and them attach them to sheetrock... which is a joke really... I'd be happy if I were you that you didn't spend even more on B&W's. You want them to sound better then treat the wall behind them. Treat the room. Installing super high end drivers in a sheetrock wall right next to a side wall in a rectangular room that has a concrete floor and parallel walls is like installing a $9000 set of Ceramic brakes on a Kia Rio and expecting it to stop a lot faster. I think your Klipsch are more than enough. I have done rooms that sound PHENOMENOL using $50 in-walls.



Awesome, thanks.

You may be surprised, but I built cabinets into the walls. They're not just hooked into the sheet wall. I dissected the drivers, looked up the specs and framed in the cabinet from behind.

I appreciate all your feedback. Where in the NorthEast are you? I'd be happy to hire you for a bit .

The screen will have matte black trim, with auto adjusting black curtains to change the screen size. It's larger than the projector size at 16:9, 4:3 and 235:1 - The projector (Panasonic A4000) has an output for that, along with the media center that will control everything via automation controls.

I have yet to figure out flooring, so I could easily put down plywood. Anything in particular I should use? 


Front of the room now looks like this:


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

This is how I did the sub woofer boxes. I cheated and used what I had. They are framed through the wall. Oh, and I used air register grills for the sub boxes. Looks pretty good. Second pic is of the back wall.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

Grendel said:


> Awesome, thanks.
> 
> You may be surprised, but I built cabinets into the walls. They're not just hooked into the sheet wall. I dissected the drivers, looked up the specs and framed in the cabinet from behind.
> 
> ...


I am in MA. For flooring you want flex. There is a plastic material you can get from home depot that has ridges, it goes under plywood (which shouldn't be too thick and rigid either), and that makes the plywood sit off the concrete and allows flex. Don't use the plywood squares that snap into each other. When you walk or tap your foor on the floor, you want to feel the vibration as far down as possible. If you carpet, don't use foam. Use the felt type stuff. You really need some acoustical insualtion next to the speakers on the side walls to absorb that early reflection. Also google and contact Jim Doolittle to get that projector calibrated, it will make a world of difference. I am not sure what that screen is but the bigger the border of black the better, since you are keeping the front wall red.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> I am in MA. For flooring you want flex. There is a plastic material you can get from home depot that has ridges, it goes under plywood (which shouldn't be too thick and rigid either), and that makes the plywood sit off the concrete and allows flex. Don't use the plywood squares that snap into each other. When you walk or tap your foor on the floor, you want to feel the vibration as far down as possible. If you carpet, don't use foam. Use the felt type stuff. You really need some acoustical insualtion next to the speakers on the side walls to absorb that early reflection. Also google and contact Jim Doolittle to get that projector calibrated, it will make a world of difference. I am not sure what that screen is but the bigger the border of black the better, since you are keeping the front wall red.



Do you have a link to the plastic stuff? I am trying to calculate the thickness of birch ply I would need to put down. 4x8 sheets are not an issue.


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## mach_y (Sep 8, 2006)

Does a floating floor make a subwoofer sound better? - AVS Forum

Floating floor is a matter of preference... You get better "feeling" of the bass, but it is colored, and not true. If you want the feeling, but still want the sound to be true to source, then keep the concrete floor and get transducers for the seats.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

Not sure I need the transducers... I don't care if my ass moves with the bass.


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## Complacent_One (Jul 2, 2009)

Wish I would have caught this earlier....hope you like the Klipsch...great choice by the way.

These would have been a great alternative, with a killer price point...especially if you have my friends...

IW 626 LCR Installation Speaker - Description

http://www.jamo.com/na-en/products/iw-606-sur-description/


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

mach_y said:


> Does a floating floor make a subwoofer sound better? - AVS Forum
> 
> Floating floor is a matter of preference... You get better "feeling" of the bass, but it is colored, and not true. If you want the feeling, but still want the sound to be true to source, then keep the concrete floor and get transducers for the seats.


That link has a lot of misinformation, which is the problem with the internet sometimes. There are a lot of guys that know some, but not enough. And they give incomplete or poor advice. I find it funny that they recommend a tactile transducer in the couch with all its metal and hinges and framing literally making noise (nevermind the transducer itself), but are worried about the flexible floor "coloring" the bass. FWIW I have been a buttkicker dealer since day one, I was involved in the installation of an array of these at the IMAX at Jordan's in Natick.

The reason for the floating floor is not just that it transmits vibration, which is the assumption of many people. With very low frequencies pressurizing the air, expansion of the listening space is desirable. That expansion comes at some level with the flex of the ceiling, walls, and floor. A plastered wall for example behaves differently than drywall as it is stiffer, has less flex and less absorbancy. When the room is pressurized having flex in the floor tames some of the standing waves which will inherently be there. They muddy bass a whole lot more than the small amount of resonance on the floor referred to in that thread. 

If anyone thinks concrete makes for good bass response and adds tightness, have them go sit in a concrete bunker with a subwoofer and get back to me with how tight the bass sounds. It will be a sea of boom and resonance with no depth and definition.

THX engineers don't specify floating floors just for "feel", there are room acoustics involved. I remember actually talking to Tom Holman (TH of THX) regarding some of these things many years ago. 

There are of course many many factors involved and no statement is true 100% of the time... but IME, Grendel is better off with a floating floor.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

IMO the two rear channel speakers are too far apart.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> IMO the two rear channel speakers are too far apart.


That's where Klipsh told me to put them based on the seating position 10 feet forward of them. They're "dipole". A bit late now, since they're in. I can move them later if it doesn't work.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

I didn't realize they were dipoles. You are sure they are dipoles and not bipoles? There are other issues then. For rear channel I find monopoles to work best actually, dipoles or even bipoles will never give you a focused rear. You'll be OK, it's just not ideal IMO.

To get the THX cert they can't use monopoles. That's one thing I really disagree with, my experience has always shown me a more direct and focused rear works best, I often even find 6.1 to be better than 7.1. Of course the industry loves to sell more speakers and amp channels so you won't always get unbiased advice there. LOL.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> I didn't realize they were dipoles. You are sure they are dipoles and not bipoles? There are other issues then. For rear channel I find monopoles to work best actually, dipoles or even bipoles will never give you a focused rear. You'll be OK, it's just not ideal IMO.
> 
> To get the THX cert they can't use monopoles. That's one thing I really disagree with, my experience has always shown me a more direct and focused rear works best, I often even find 6.1 to be better than 7.1. Of course the industry loves to sell more speakers and amp channels so you won't always get unbiased advice there. LOL.


They're *KS-7800-THX In-Wall Speaker*


Bipole, Dipole, Tripole.... heh, too many misnomers.


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## Complacent_One (Jul 2, 2009)

In my past experience I would have to agree with Turbo....

The Surrounds (Which should be perpendicular to and just aft of the listening position) will be a dipole/bipole type speaker. The rear surround should be monopole for either a 6.1 (centered on rear wall, or if cabinet type centered behind listener and no more than half the distance of the listener to Center Channel) the distance to listener is the same for either speaker type, but the spacing between should be no more than half the distance measure between Main Left and Main Right. Again, this is what I have found to provide the best sense of perceived stage....but your layout should provide a great experience.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

Complacent_One said:


> In my past experience I would have to agree with Turbo....
> 
> The Surrounds (Which should be perpendicular to and just aft of the listening position) will be a dipole/bipole type speaker. The rear surround should be monopole for either a 6.1 (centered on rear wall, or if cabinet type centered behind listener and no more than half the distance of the listener to Center Channel) the distance to listener is the same for either speaker type, but the spacing between should be no more than half the distance measure between Main Left and Main Right. Again, this is what I have found to provide the best sense of perceived stage....but your layout should provide a great experience.


This is simply not possible given the room size, shape and dual row seating lay out. 

I think that's why Klipsch had me put them where they are. Also, do remember that everything will have full time alignment via Audessy processing.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

turbo2go said:


> I have to tell you being an industry veteran, the whole in-wall speaker market is a huge cash cow. 80% of the speaker's cost is in the cabinet but do in-walls cost 80% less? Hell no. People shell out a lot of money for a bunch of drivers and it's sound is holy dictated by how it is installed, and if infinite baffle, how the wall is treated internally. So you buy all these expensive drivers and them attach them to sheetrock... which is a joke really... I'd be happy if I were you that you didn't spend even more on B&W's. You want them to sound better then treat the wall behind them. Treat the room. Installing super high end drivers in a sheetrock wall right next to a side wall in a rectangular room that has a concrete floor and parallel walls is like installing a $9000 set of Ceramic brakes on a Kia Rio and expecting it to stop a lot faster. I think your Klipsch are more than enough. I have done rooms that sound PHENOMENOL using $50 in-walls.


if you dont mind me asking, who do you work for, you have a website, etc


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

Got the projector up last night. Since it's a dropped ceiling, I didn't feel right just hooking to the ceiling tile.

So I welded up an extension to anchor it to the joists... just happened to be made out of 2" DOM tube that's 1/4" thick. (I had it kicking around).

Still in the video tuning stages.


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## turbo2go (Aug 23, 2011)

Grendel said:


> They're *KS-7800-THX In-Wall Speaker*
> 
> 
> Bipole, Dipole, Tripole.... heh, too many misnomers.



Yeah these are really neither, I see what they have done is to try to get wider dispersion from a horn, which is kind of a problem for horns but also can be advantageous. I thing even more so now they need to come in and off the side-walls some. You are going to get some nasty reflections right off that side wall. 



Porsche said:


> if you dont mind me asking, who do you work for, you have a website, etc


I own a company called Sonovo Inc. in MA. Yes we have a website, it is out of date because I really have more work than I can handle already so no need to try to get more by adverstising. My partner and I each have over 20 years in this business. We started in the days we had to cut in Boston and ADS car speakers because there were no in-walls. Lots of newbs in this business now that I wind up having to fix things for. I have a pretty long list of well-known clients I wouldn't name on this site. If you need to get in touch you can email at info at sonovo dot com. I actually signed up for car stereo info and saw this thread so thought I'd help. 



Grendel said:


> Got the projector up last night. Since it's a dropped ceiling, I didn't feel right just hooking to the ceiling tile.
> 
> So I welded up an extension to anchor it to the joists... just happened to be made out of 2" DOM tube that's 1/4" thick. (I had it kicking around).
> 
> Still in the video tuning stages.


What is that screen? where is the black border? yeah ceiling tile projector install is bad so I am glad you didn't do that. You'd NEVER get the picture geometry right with tile and support flex. Pipe is good. Looking good. I'd still move the surrounds in another 10-15" each but you will be OK either way.


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## Grendel (May 12, 2010)

turbo2go said:


> Yeah these are really neither, I see what they have done is to try to get wider dispersion from a horn, which is kind of a problem for horns but also can be advantageous. I thing even more so now they need to come in and off the side-walls some. You are going to get some nasty reflections right off that side wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The screen is one I built. Black border's coming, had to figure out the picture size, which now works wonderfully. There will be 10" of curtains on both sides and a 2" border, top and bottom. BTW, right now, there is no flash over. It's a nice picture on that screen now.

We'll see how the rear sound, I am not adverse to moving them, but need to do other things first.

I may want you to come and work over the sound deadening aspects. I am not that far away. I am paying for the calibration at your suggestion.


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