# Sundown SA-8 v.2 Prototype Completed



## sundownz

Figured I'd bring this over here for some of the folks that don't necessarily check our forums as I know plenty of people have been waiting on these.

It will be on it's way to me soon for testing of performance and final specs... also production costs should come in soon so I'll be able to get a cost to customer price shortly.

On to the photos of it all put together !









* Custom tooled gasket to fit our new frame with the Sundown logo embedded. Also a stitched on surround like the newest SA / SD-2 models.









* Side view -- doubled up, tied down, round lead wires to eliminate the potential for tinsel lead failure.









* Also a custom tooled venting ring like the SA-10/12/15 series (complete with logo). You will also note the dual, spaced spider setup. Each spider is 10mm wider than previous SA-8 models for more maximum excursion before mechanical damage.


















* New motor design with new magnet boot tooled to fit... this new motor is also complete with a shorting ring on the magnet ID like the new SA-10/12/15 models for lower distortion than ever.









* Rear view. Note the Sundown logo tooled into our new frame.

The new frame tool eliminates the x-mech limits of open tooled frames... it also allows us to use a wider spider and to channel the air like I wanted through the spacer ring.

We were also able to implement dual round leads to eliminate the most common form of abuse damage on the 8s -- which was lead tearing / burning.

So... more ruggedness than ever, and lower distortion than ever thanks to a bigger spider and an internal shorting ring. Testing to come soon on the SPL side... I do expect this to also be louder per watt than prior SA-8s.

Still rated 400 RMS conservatively, box requirements still the same but more forgiving to larger boxes thanks to more mechanical excursion capacity. Many people used larger boxes on single 8s due to the difficulty of fitting a port in the box so we made the driver more capable of withstanding these type enclosures but still being able to work in the same tiny boxes when called upon.


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## chad

damn.....


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## sundownz

That is what we were going for Chad =)

I'm very excited to get these in for testing... I may send one of to Red Rock for Klippel as well to make sure I don't need any more tweaks for production.


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## cubdenno

I remember when we got the 4 E8's for my son's Mazda3.

I laughed about and loved the crazy output that those lil beast's had. 

These really take it all to a new level! Man that is one impressive looking 8!!!


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## Chaos

If it sounds as good as it looks, you've got another winner there for sure.


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## bigdexxx

Those subs look killer, I definately wouldn't having 4 of those in my Crewmax. I can't to get all the details on them..................


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## bigdexxx

sundownz said:


> That is what we were going for Chad =)
> 
> I'm very excited to get these in for testing... I may send one of to Red Rock for Klippel as well to make sure I don't need any more tweaks for production.


Sundownz, I have a question for you 

Is the actual cone smaller then the previous model? Maybe it just looks that way.


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## sundownz

bigdexxx said:


> Sundownz, I have a question for you
> 
> Is the actual cone smaller then the previous model? Maybe it just looks that way.


Cone area is identical -- surround is just a tad more drastic in size.


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## bigdexxx

sundownz said:


> Cone area is identical -- surround is just a tad more drastic in size.


Thank you for responding, I really appreciate it


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## Boostedrex

Good God Jacob! That is a beastly little 8 man!! What's the mounting depth on it? And please do post back in here once you get all the T/S specs for it. I'd be REALLY curious to model this thing up. I have something in mind.

Zach


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## sundownz

Boostedrex said:


> Good God Jacob! That is a beastly little 8 man!! What's the mounting depth on it? And please do post back in here once you get all the T/S specs for it. I'd be REALLY curious to model this thing up. I have something in mind.
> 
> Zach


Once I get it in here I'll post up a good bit of measurements both physically and specification-wise.

You know how I roll, though, my first goal is to do 155 dB with four of them in my CRX


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## Boostedrex

sundownz said:


> Once I get it in here I'll post up a good bit of measurements both physically and specification-wise.
> 
> You know how I roll, though, my first goal is to do 155 dB with four of them in my CRX


I'd expect nothing less man!  Thanks.


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## Ray21

Good lord that thing looks just beastly!! Interested in seeing the specs as well.


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## thomasluke

DAMN From the looks it's a paper cone?


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## sundownz

thomasluke said:


> DAMN From the looks it's a paper cone?


Yes it is.


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## sundownz

Pricing is coming out a bit higher than expected due to the amount of aluminum in the frame, the large internal aluminum shorting ring, extra steel in the motor, added labor to assemble, and the doubled leads -- but I didn't want to make any compromises so it is what it is!

I wanted to keep it around ~150 MAP but it looks like it will be $185 MAP (same as an SA-10) -- of course we have to keep in mind there is really nothing else like this on the market to compare to price-wise. I have NOT added a penny to the price to cover what I paid in tooling -- I am pricing ONLY on cost to produce per unit so this is the best price I could possibly offer on this driver. I think when we see one of these standing next to an SA-8 v.1 it will pretty much explain itself visually.

So -- that being said I will likely produce an SD-2 8" to fill in the large price gap from the E8v.2 ($89) to this guy ($185)... so I'll start development on the SD-2 model soon to come in around the pricing level of the SA-8 v.1 as we know it today so we'll have a full spectrum depending on budget.


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## bigdexxx

Would you be able to let us know the difference in mounting depth of this one and the old one?

The new ones seems to have about 2" inches on the SA-8v1


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## sundownz

Yes, I will measure them side to side once it arrives. I have my expected depth on my notes but I want to measure just to make sure I am posting the right information


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## sundownz

I have the pre-breakin specs as well -- they need a nice break-in period to get the more settled in specs. The Fs and Qts will drop as usual. Take note especially of how low the Le is now... this will extend the top-end response and reduce inductive distortion significantly from prior models.

*D2 Specs:*









*D4 Specs:*


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## sundownz

These will go through rigorous testing before approval for production. I am hoping we got it right the first time -- but if I am not 100% satisfied I will make more tweaks before doing full production. Stay tuned !


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## bigdexxx

Specs aren't bad, will definately be a hard hitting sub. I'm looking for something that can be tuned to 25-28hz ported though.


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## chad

bigdexxx said:


> I'm looking for something that can be tuned to 25-28hz ported though.


did you model them?


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## bigdexxx

chad said:


> did you model them?


Chad: No, I didn't model them so my statement is to be taken with a grain of salt and two shakes of pepper. Once I get home in a few months, I will model them though. Along with other subs I'm looking at


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## sundownz

You can make an EBS alignment if you want to tune low -- I've done so before and I was pretty happy. I will be sure to update with broken-in specs as soon as I can


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## envisionelec

Holy Hahahaha. That's insane. :surprised:


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## Boostedrex

I like what I'm seeing so far Jacob! Can't wait to see how things settle in after some time. Going to go through a few different modeling scenarios that I have in mind.


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## sundownz

Well -- the box with some of the re-cone parts arrived but the subs got separated. SO here are some photos @ the shop of some of the parts :thumbsup:









* Progression of the baskets... to the left the original 12-spoke, then the 8-leg, and now the fully tooled Sundown frame!


















* Wider new spider on the left and older spider on the right (we have round lead spiders in stock for re-cones)









* 10mm wider with an entire extra roll on the outside.









* Doubled up / large round lead wires.









* First step -- bottom spider with no leads.









* Second step -- spacer ring in place and center glue joint support ring (there is another behind the rear spider as well)


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## sundownz

* Then the top spider on top of the spacer ring -- there will be a steel bolt-on ring on top of all of this in production.









* Logo in the basket base inside, under the spiders









* Visible external logo









* New gasket vs. old gasket -- hard to tell but the new one is slightly bigger so we had to tool it anyway so we put the logo in it too.


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## envisionelec

The assembly of subwoofers (or just speakers in general) never ceases to fascinate me.

I just noticed that your facility is within 10 miles of my dealer in Clemmons, NC. If I'm ever in the area, I'll buy you your beverage of choice over lunch.


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## thehatedguy

Let me know when you are in the area...I'm only about an hour from them.


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## envisionelec

thehatedguy said:


> Let me know when you are in the area...I'm only about an hour from them.


@thehatedguy So you can kick my ass? I don't remember...

@sundownz I'm not an SPL guy, but I like 8's. And this is quite a driver. Forgive me for not knowing the history on this...is it specifically for SPL? 

EDIT: Oh, I found the originals on YouTube. Holy Moses, that's some SPL for a single 8. Hmmm.


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## sundownz

envisionelec said:


> @thehatedguy So you can kick my ass? I don't remember...
> 
> @sundownz I'm not an SPL guy, but I like 8's. And this is quite a driver. Forgive me for not knowing the history on this...is it specifically for SPL?
> 
> EDIT: Oh, I found the originals on YouTube. Holy Moses, that's some SPL for a single 8. Hmmm.


Most of our drivers tend to edge towards SPL due to higher motor force levels -- but they usually still possess features for low distortion. All of our drivers from the SA line on up have full size magnet ID shorting rings (SA-8 v.2 is the first 8" model to use one but the bigger SA series have had one for some time) and pole cap shorting rings. 

The NS v.2, our biggest SPL woofer, actually has 27mm linear x-max one-way as well as dual shorting rings 

What Sundown is about is primarily lots of output but I always try to stick in features and design aspects that lower distortion wherever possible!

We did recently have a customer win in an SQ competition with two SA-8 v.1s as well :

SA-8s SQ Victory ! - SSA Car Audio Forum


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## envisionelec

sundownz said:


> Most of our drivers tend to edge towards SPL due to higher motor force levels -- but they usually still possess features for low distortion. All of our drivers from the SA line on up have full size magnet ID shorting rings (SA-8 v.2 is the first 8" model to use one but the bigger SA series have had one for some time) and pole cap shorting rings.
> 
> The NS v.2, our biggest SPL woofer, actually has 27mm linear x-max one-way as well as dual shorting rings
> 
> What Sundown is about is primarily lots of output but I always try to stick in features and design aspects that lower distortion wherever possible!
> 
> We did recently have a customer win in an SQ competition with two SA-8 v.1s as well :
> 
> SA-8s SQ Victory ! - SSA Car Audio Forum


Very interesting. Thank you!

You might just be responsible for getting me to buy my first retail item for car audio in at least 15 years. That's saying quite a bit considering I exclusively buy home audio speakers for my vehicles. Needless to say, the subwoofer department always leaves me disappointed. I'll gladly trade airspace for power - power is cheap!


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## sundownz

If you are interested in one just let me know when we get them in stock


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## thehatedguy

I'm not really an *******, I just play one on the internet.


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## chad

thehatedguy said:


> I'm not really an *******, I just play one on the internet.


more fun that way....


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## envisionelec

thehatedguy said:


> I'm not really an *******, I just play one on the internet.


Ah, I get it. Yeah - I used to be like that. It was fun until I had to run a business. Conflict of interest and all that. LOL.


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## envisionelec

sundownz said:


> If you are interested in one just let me know when we get them in stock


Probably two. Especially if they can squeeze into an 0.65 cubes 

I'd also buy one of your amps. One of the blown ones in really rough shape would do.  I'd take one that got so hot it turned purple or light grey (depending on the dye in your anodizing process)....

Yeah - I'm _that guy_. And I'm serious!


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## sundownz

I am super excited... just unboxed the first one and took pictures as fast as I could... will have a free-air video up soon... more testing ASAP :









* Newest @ left to the oldest @ right.


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## sundownz

I haven't been this excited since I got my first amp prototypes in 2006...

SA-8 v.2 (Final v.2) Free-Air Testing ! - YouTube


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## sundownz

For reference it was CRANKED -- I'm not sure what it would take to get that kind of throw in a box but it would be ALOT of power. At levels that the original SA-8 would be making bad mechanical noise this one is dead silent -- I was excited so I pushed it as far as I could right away in the video *laughs*


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## alabama_lowlife

Haha that thing was MOVING! It must be fun to be able to "test" them


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## req

Sweet looking driver sir, custom tooling is always very impressive!


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## Boostedrex

The stitched surround joint adds a very nice/rugged look to it Jacob. And that is an impressive amount of throw for an 8" driver. Keep feeding us the updates man. And slap Nick in his skinny head for me. LOL!!!!


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## sundownz

Boostedrex said:


> The stitched surround joint adds a very nice/rugged look to it Jacob. And that is an impressive amount of throw for an 8" driver. Keep feeding us the updates man. And slap Nick in his skinny head for me. LOL!!!!


Thanks -- haha, and will do !

-----------------

SA-8 v.2 (Final v.2) Free-Air Testing Part II - YouTube

Another video... this time with clamped power as well


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## sundownz

Also... DHL did break one so I took that time to cut it down to show a few design / build details of this driver :









* Nobody likes to see this ! Felt like someone shot my dog when I saw that.


















* Cone out... nice view of the double leads.









* Bottom triple joint ring that we all know and love from the original SA-8









* Second triple joint ring between the spiders too -- I like rugged !









* Pole cap much like the SD-2 models









* Steel ring is bolted in behind each leg of the frame (8 bolts to hold the spacer assembly and spiders in place)









* Internal logos and the inside view of the venting ring. Focuses the air on the coil better as well as building the proper velocity.









* RIP SA-8 v.2 Frame...


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## sundownz

I sent one in for Klippel on Friday to Red Rock... I am planning a few tweaks to test before running these in production but so far I'm very pleased with the overall platform I've created here.

A bit less of an SPL driver and more of a cleaner SQ driver than the original in our testing so far -- which is okay with me as most folks run them daily and I can still customize them for SPL.


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## Ray21

Very impressive!! I have no use for a mega-8, but you've got my interest in this little beast.


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## JoeHemi57

Wow must have and the pricing compared to the HAT Imagine 8 i was thinking about this is a no brainer but will it work sealed and how much power minimum?


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## thomasluke

Two questons sir, how much and how long will it take to get here?
EDIT: Ok so maybe three questions. Is there a preorder list already?


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## JoeHemi57

After the new year from what i saw elsewhere before they are available.


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## sundownz

JoeHemi57 said:


> Wow must have and the pricing compared to the HAT Imagine 8 i was thinking about this is a no brainer but will it work sealed and how much power minimum?


Joe,

Motor is a bit powerful for sealed... in theory you can run sealed but the F3 is in the 60s region.

If you can fit 0.6 vented that is what it was made for.


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## chad

giventhe powerful motor and tendency to have a High F3, would a linkwitz transform arrangemeant be suitable for those that would like to do something small? outside the car.... Of course, this depends on self noise and power handling. Noise seems to be a non-issue.


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## sundownz

I don't see any reason one couldn't use an LT on these in a small sealed box for an SQ oriented application. Real life thermal handling is much greater than the 400 RMS rating as is the case with most any of our drivers ratings (they must pass a 60 Hz sine-wave test for 5+ minutes to get a power rating from us... to date all of our drivers pass this test with flying colors at or above their ratings).

I'd really like to see one in a small PR box as well.


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## chad

In the situation I'm in (200 Sq Ft room approx) low is the name of the game, the sub system will be augmenting a set of JBL 4412's. Plenty of power on tap.

This is actually something I've been meaning to e-mail you about but just have not really had time to sit down and do it.


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## JoeHemi57

sundownz said:


> Joe,
> 
> Motor is a bit powerful for sealed... in theory you can run sealed but the F3 is in the 60s region.
> 
> If you can fit 0.6 vented that is what it was made for.


I may be able to pull that off, would the sa8v1 or the e8 be better sealed if not?


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## Coppertone

Is there a pre order for this, if so please tell me how. I am anxious to run one of these in my VW. Subscribed.


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## thehatedguy

How badassed would they be with PRs in a multisub home setup? 3-4 of those in the room would be something to hear.


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## Coppertone

Any word yet on a pre order?


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## sundownz

When everything is finalized pre-order details will become available.


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## Coppertone

Thank you for the response, I look forward to having one of these.


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## fish

sundownz said:


> I'd really like to see one in a small PR box as well.


What size & how many PR's would suffice for this little monster? Are there any particular brands of PR's you'd favor?


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## sundownz

I'd suggest a 10" PR -- I am going to be testing a "PSI" 10 inch PR with one within a week or so


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## sundownz

My PSI passive radiator came in -- they sell for ~$80 (not bad) and it looks great.

I'll share some more information once I try it out.


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## sundownz

Car Audio Classifieds

Built the box... will be listening over the Holiday weekend !


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## Ray21

Nice! Can you measurements of nearfield response and what it looks like in-room? I know every rooms different, but would be cool to see what kind of freq. response can be achieved...


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## subwoofery

Ray21 said:


> Nice! Can you measurements of nearfield response and what it looks like in-room? I know every rooms different, but would be cool to see what kind of freq. response can be achieved...


What do you mean "in-room"? I thought this was a car audio forum? 

Kelvin


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## Ray21

subwoofery said:


> What do you mean "in-room"? I thought this was a car audio forum?
> 
> Kelvin


I got confused for a sec. I mixed up Chad's post for one of Jacobs. Chad mentioned he needed a sub for a 200 ft^2 room and I thought that's what Jacob was building the sub/PR for. 

An in-car measurement would be great as well...


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## subwoofery

Ray21 said:


> I got confused for a sec. I mixed up Chad's post for one of Jacobs. Chad mentioned he needed a sub for a 200 ft^2 room and I thought that's what Jacob was building the sub/PR for.
> 
> An in-car measurement would be great as well...


Ohh... Got ya 

Kelvin


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## adrenalinejunkie

That woofer seems to be a beast!


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## sundownz

I am REALLY pleased so far... plan to add some mass and do more testing. Tuning looks to be in the high 30s with no added mass, would like to see it in the low 30s


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## sundownz

I am getting closer to finalized... still tweaking the coil and spider compliance a bit to get it exactly where I want it to be.

I am entertaining making one last small run of the SA-8 "classic" to tide everyone over if this will take much longer.


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## Coppertone

Please put me down for one Classic if that is the case.


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## JayBee

I have to say that i'm really interested in some of these for both vehicles. The small enclosure with the PR would be perfect for the focus. I'm keepingmy eye on this one.


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## [email protected]

I want a pair of v2's to play with, looking forward to them being ready.


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## The Baron Groog

chad said:


> giventhe powerful motor and tendency to have a High F3, would a linkwitz transform arrangemeant be suitable for those that would like to do something small? outside the car.... Of course, this depends on self noise and power handling. Noise seems to be a non-issue.


Sorry to do a little thread jacking:

Why only outside the car? (EDIT: sorry just saw the 2nd pst about the 200ft room, but will leave this anyway as it may give some others the idea)I have an Aliante 10 running LT very successfully in my car 0.126cf box F3 of 76Hz, slightly higher than Fb. 4mm Xmax and 300wrms power handling said it wouldn't work-a BMW Mini's insane cabin gain said it would! LP'd at 63Hz, the car's cabin gain is the EQ, mechanical Vs electric

Pics below show box in loaction, box modeled with and without gain figured in and a quick RTA I ran with 0 tuning, just had gains set to minimum and artibtary crossover points selected:


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## sundownz

Some videos up finally :

SA-8 v.2 + PSI Passive Radiator - YouTube

SA-8 v.2 + PSI Passive Radiator II - YouTube


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## sundownz

Still plan to tune the PR down further and do some more testing


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## Coppertone

Sitting by waiting to buy, lol.


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## sundownz

First Klippel graph is in from Red Rock.

This sample is offset a bit but thanks to this data we'll make sure they are properly centered on production 

Suspension turned out quite flat, linear x-max beat FEA prediction, and Le graph is very good as well.

I am still tweaking the absolute CMS value as well as coil length to determine the final production spec... but it's very close!


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## subwoofery

sundownz said:


> First Klippel graph is in from Red Rock.
> 
> This sample is offset a bit but thanks to this data we'll make sure they are properly centered on production
> 
> Suspension turned out quite flat, linear x-max beat FEA prediction, and Le graph is very good as well.
> 
> I am still tweaking the absolute CMS value as well as coil length to determine the final production spec... but it's very close!


Too bad it's inductance limited in the throw... other than that, it looks like a solid driver :thumbsup:
I believe you said that there was a shorting ring to treat inductance... 
Could you please explain (again) how it was implemented? 

Thank you, 
Kelvin


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## sundownz

Once we get the graphs centered a bit nicer Le limits will be higher -- as it's going by % shift from the zero point and the zero point is moved to one side.

There are two shorting rings -- a big one in the magnet ID and a small one on top of the pole. Pretty much like what we do in the SA-12


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## sundownz

I'd also like to thank Patrick @ Red Rock for the quality work he does with the Klippel and helpful suggestions along the way. Sundown will continue to work with Red Rock and Patrick to continuously make our products better


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## sundownz

We compared against a very well respected 2.5" coil driver rated for 600-watts RMS on our traditional 60 Hz thermal cycle test -- many people do run much more than that to this particular driver.

The comparison was done simply to give a reference point of the thermal capacity of the SA-8 v.2

I was wondering if it was just me or if I wasn't even tickling this driver thermally with 800+ watts on tap in my car (SAX-200.4 two channels bridged at 2 ohms)... so the question is now answered -- I really wasn't even close to the thermal limits as this 60 Hz test is brutal with very little excursion. On music where the sub is moving 4-5x more the cooling is enhanced by more air movement. So that answered the question about whether my little spacer ring is or is not doing what I wanted it to do !










So what this tells me is that I'll probably bump up my official rating to 500 RMS on the SA-8 v.2 -- and that the limit is really purely mechanical on them. I CAN get it to full x-mech on the 200.4 in my car at very low frequencies under box tuning.


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## sundownz

SA-8 v.2 Thermal Testing - YouTube

The video... super boring but here as a reference to the data.


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## khara

I'm very excited to get these in for testing


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## sundownz

We started pre-ordering up on our other forums -- including ROE and CACO. You can head over there and check it out if interested.


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## JayBee

These are landing on doorsteps now.


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## sundownz

Hope to see some reviews soon =)


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## schmiddr2

From when I started with MTX Terminator and Pyle Driver subs back in the day, I never thought there would be such a thing as this! It's amazing how much sub design and manufacturing capabilities have evolved.


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## The Baron Groog

JayBee said:


> These are landing on doorsteps now.


Oooo, mee sooo hornyyyy!

Lovely


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## sundownz

schmiddr2 said:


> From when I started with MTX Terminator and Pyle Driver subs back in the day, I never thought there would be such a thing as this! It's amazing how much sub design and manufacturing capabilities have evolved.


When I started making 8s back in the E8 v.1 days I also had a hard time imagining that I would have the opportunity to take 8" woofer technology this far. It's really been an amazing ride getting to this point with the SA-8 v.2 and I am looking forward to testing and experimenting to keep pushing it forward!


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## adrenalinejunkie

What enclosure specs and power are you SA-8V2 users using?


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## undone1

.7 net,32-33 tune,upwards of 1200 so far,not even close to hurting this thing..


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## sundownz

My nephew is borrowing one of my cars with 3x SA-8 v.2 on an SAZ-3500D @ 0.66 ohms and he hasn't hurt them... and he's an 18 year old kid with no audio experience. I think we did our job well on making these rugged


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## sundownz

PS : I am working on an "X-8" model with 2.5" coil with a 750 RMS rating... with well over 20mm linear x-max one way. So stay tuned for that one in 2013


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## Oliver

The Baron Groog said:


> Oooo, mee sooo hornyyyy!
> 
> Lovely


Extremely Beautiful


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## adrenalinejunkie

sundownz said:


> PS : I am working on an "X-8" model with 2.5" coil with a 750 RMS rating... with well over 20mm linear x-max one way. So stay tuned for that one in 2013



How will that one compare to the SA-8v2?


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## Will175

Hmmm..can't wait for the new one. Need new subs in my new rig.


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## nautic70

sundownz said:


> My nephew is boof thoserrowing one of my cars with 3x SA-8 v.2 on an SAZ-3500D @ 0.66 ohms and he hasn't hurt them... and he's an 18 year old kid with no audio experience. I think we did our job well on making these rugged


What does the box look like. I have 4 these sitting at home because when I bought them I didn't realize how much port area they needed and how much bigger that made the box.


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## sundownz

Looks like this -- IIRC around 2 cubes or so before displacement and ~1.5 after with a 6" aero-port about as long as the box is wide.


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## sundownz

adrenalinejunkie said:


> How will that one compare to the SA-8v2?


The SA-8 v.2 is still going to be our king of the lowest of the lows in terms of the response curves -- as we have to stiffen up the X-8 a bit to support it's 750 RMS rating. It will be capable of more linear throw than the SA-8 v.2, though, and no slouch at all on the bottom-end.


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## Offroader5

Have these shown to work well in a sealed setup? I was pondering two of these sharing about .8 to 1.2 cubes on about 1000 watts.


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## TheBlindMan

Offroader5 said:


> Have these shown to work well in a sealed setup? I was pondering two of these sharing about .8 to 1.2 cubes on about 1000 watts.



Last time I remember, they weren't recommended in sealed alignments.


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## nautic70

Yeah if they were then the 4 sitting in my garage would be in a box in my car. But I can't give up that much space or I would be alllll over it.


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## Offroader5

Thats kinda why I ask though. Their website shows both sealed and ported "recommended enclosures". I would assume that if they were not meant for sealed...they'd say it on the site.


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