# Setting gains with test tones



## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I know alot recommend against it but i want to know what is a more realistic db level to choose? At the moment ive set them using a 0db level but im definetley not happy with that, so shud i use -2.5 , -5 , -7.5, or -10? Reason im asking these levels is because ive found where i can download these, 
My sub amp is pdx m12 and sub is jbl w12 gti sealed, and for fronts i have a mrx f35 bridged running focal ps 165, so whats a safe test tone to use on unloaded outputs using a dmm to measure and how many watts should i aim for ?


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

I've set mine with 0db tones and am happy with the results, others will tell you use -5 or -10db tones to get the most power out of the amp.

I've also heard that people will set their 4 channel with -5db tones and mono with -10db tones.

As for the voltage reading on the DMM for max safe voltage, that would be 

Voltage = square root of watts x ohms

So if you have one gain control that is pushing 200W @ 4 oms, it would be the square root of 800, so 28.28V


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## syc0path (Jan 23, 2013)

Don't have any firsthand experience w/ - dB test tones (I've always used 0 dB myself), but -10dB seems like a good way to tune in an awful lot of distortion and clipping. Even -2.5dB is risky IMO. If u'r not happy w/ your settings using 0 dB tones, then just increase your gain (slightly!) by ear.


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

The thing about 0db tones though is that music is not recorded in 0db, so the chance of introducing clipping should be minimal, and clipping is not exactly a bad thing necessarily. 

Just because we have our HU max volume determined at XX level with amps set to clip using 0db tones at XX gain, when you play music, say a high DR recording, the volume will be low because the tracks were recorded in -db. So increasing the volume beyond what we know to be safe with 0db tones, is still safe to play at XX volume.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

syc0path said:


> Don't have any firsthand experience w/ - dB test tones (I've always used 0 dB myself), but -10dB seems like a good way to tune in an awful lot of distortion and clipping. Even -2.5dB is risky IMO. If u'r not happy w/ your settings using 0 dB tones, then just increase your gain (slightly!) by ear.


I set my gains with -14db tones.(Focal labs disc) I have no distortion whatsoever. it can get so loud it hurts my ears. setting with 0db tones can work, but you need a ****-ton of power on tap, because you will be wasting alot.

setting gains really is the most over discussed and least important topic on here, lol. if you have distortion with the volume knob set to 20, turn it down to 18, problem solved.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I feel like my system isnt as loud as it could be but i dont want to burn a sub ir comps, so should i use a -db tone? And my comps are rated at 80rms what should i set the power on them? And sub rated at 700rms what should i set on that?
I have potential 1200rms for sub and potential 170+rms for comps per side


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

You have a **** ton of power on tap there, how loud are you trying to get it? lol

I have 100x4 and 600x1 and I'll tell you, if I have everything maxed out, I'll have an ear ache for days.

Personally I would set the volume at 2/3 or 3/4, set gains to max voltage with HU volume at that level, then dial back the mono or 4/2 channel gains until you have things blended correctly. If your speakers cant handle the power that the amps are delivering then you'll have to be careful and listen for distortion and let your ears be your guide as far as where the gains end up being set.

If you're not getting enough volume with it set that way I think there's another problem. Folks are running 45w x 4 and 300 x1 and their systems are plenty loud.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Lol i may be deaf, but i think it may be setting gains with 0 db thats not working out because most of my music material is through usb connection on hu, so im gonna use tones in usb aswel, atm ive set it at 1000rms on sub and 130rms on comps but there is noway my music is getting that mych power out if my amps


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

ImK'ed said:


> Lol i may be deaf, but i think it may be setting gains with 0 db thats not working out because most of my music material is through usb connection on hu, so im gonna use tones in usb aswel, atm ive set it at 1000rms on sub and 130rms on comps but there is noway my music is getting that mych power out if my amps


This topic has always troubled me as well. I, too, have alot more power on tap than what my speakers are rated for. I have also found that you can't always take those numbers seriously. Alot of drivers (especially ones designed for home use) rate their numbers really low. That is do to them rating them with a full range signal. I think my Scan 10f were rated at like 20 watts or something but I was feeding them over 100 watts and they took it all day long no problems at all. I was using a crossover anywhere from 250-400 Hz with a steep slope. 

I have now come down to the important driver to be careful for setting is my sub mainly. The human ear is not near as tuned for these frequencies as the higher ones. I have been told that a sub can be producing 10 % distortion and the majority of people would have no clue (until the magic smoke arrived that is). I do set it with a -10 db tone tho too because as stated earlier we listen to music not tones and music is usually recorded lower and not only that but it is dynamic. ie. It might his that peak but only for a microsecond. Most speakers can handle short bursts like that at much higher than their rated. I think my Morel Ultimo is rated at like 3000 watts for up to 10 ms or something like that but the rms is 1000 watts.

For my other drivers, I do set it for my midbass as I have it playing down to 50 Hz and was worried about not noticing distortion here too. I found I had to turn them down anyways to blend with the midrange/tweets any ways. As for the midrange/tweets trust me you'll know when they have too much on them. They become painful to listen to or at least for me they do.

Take all of this with a grain of salt tho as I am still not happy with my sound either. Well, I keep going back and forth on that day to day. I hope to learn alot from all of the awesome folks down in California in March.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Thats why im not sure firstly how much rms i should aim for remembering that speakers wont be connected to amp and then what level of test tone to use.


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

Gonna have to figure it out by ear. If you know where your gain control starts to clip the signal, then anywhere from 0 through that point is where you'll set it. So long as it's a clean signal at that volume playing through your speakers, you should be fine. Then adjust the gains accordingly until your sub blends properly with the rest of the system.

In my case my speakers and amps all match as far as wattage. The alpine amps are rated a tad higher than advertised RMS as you know, so I'm sure they're getting the occasional burst of the higher RMS and that's certainly over the rated RMS on my speakers, no problems, no distortion that I can hear.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

So should i use test tones so get a ball park figure? What db? Minbari your using -14db, you must have alot of headroom i would be be scared setting gains that high


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

this seems to be a common topic lately, and i ask...if you are not happy, i assume its because your system is not loud enough for you?

solution...turn the gains up, or buy more power...its not rocket science here.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Im happy to turn gains up but i would like to set for example my sub amp to 1000rms hoping that the sub can handle it, right now ive set it for 1
1000rms but with a 0db tone , im just trying to decide what is a more realistic level of tone


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

ImK'ed said:


> Im happy to turn gains up but i would like to set for example my sub amp to 1000rms hoping that the sub can handle it, right now ive set it for 1
> 1000rms but with a 0db tone , im just trying to decide what is a more realistic level of tone


i think that sub wants 700watts RMS?

You also haven't said, or maybe i missed it...what are you unhappy about with setting the gains with zero db test tone?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

ImK'ed said:


> So should i use test tones so get a ball park figure? What db? Minbari your using -14db, you must have alot of headroom i would be be scared setting gains that high


Yes, once you are in the ballpark you still hsve to tune by ear.

I dont have a ton of power, but with high sensitivity speakers, dont need it. But setting it that way i never have to worry about running out of volume knob on softer recorded material. Usually not more than 1/2 on the volume knob

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I dont feel my sustem is loud enough, i just want to get my amps set approx with toes then i'll afjust by ear so was jus curious whats recommended with -db etc, yeh subs 700rms but i have 1200rms available, should i set it for full 1200rms or set it 800-1000rms?


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

What i mean is could the sub handle more than its rms safely?


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

I am sure that it can but there are a lot of factors. You can damage a speaker with less power than it is rated for by exceeding thermal limits, pushing it beyond it's xmax, etc.

I'd put less emphasis into how much power you're sending to the speakers and more with what you are actually hearing. Play some bass heavy music and make sure it is not distorting.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

ImK'ed said:


> What i mean is could the sub handle more than its rms safely?


In general yes. 300 over rms doesnt mean it will see more than 200 watts most of the time. Dynamic peaks wont hurt it thermslly. As long as it doesnt make mechanical noises, you should be golden

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

ShaneInMN said:


> I am sure that it can but there are a lot of factors. *You can damage a speaker with less power than it is rated for by exceeding thermal limits*, pushing it beyond it's xmax, etc.
> 
> I'd put less emphasis into how much power you're sending to the speakers and more with what you are actually hearing. Play some bass heavy music and make sure it is not distorting.


You realize that power is where the heat comes from? If a speaker is rated for 700 watts, i could give it 300 watts fully clipped all day long and not hurt it thermally. 

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

Yep I get that, but still if you're sending under the rated RMS watts that doesn't necessarily mean that you're not peaking frequently enough to thermally damage the speaker?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

What about 1k -10db test tone for speakers and 50hz -10db t tone for subs?

Is there a benefit using the 50hz tone for the sub or the 1khz tone will do the job equally?


I would prefer to set voltage rather than go by ear, and increase it, the reason is some dials are very sensitive specially having an HU with 5 volt RCA's, once set if you put the loudest cd you have and don't hear clipping but it is loud enough for your ears, Its set and you can try your lowest volume cd and see if it can get as loud as the loudest cd by turning the vol higher

If the lowest vol cd does not get as loud, then increase the gain by a few volts maybe in increments of 3 until you either achieve clipping with the loudest cd or loud sound with the lowest vol cd. This way no guessing.

Or if you go by ear, simply double check the voltage to make sure you did not set at 29 v instead of 20 for the components, Or 50 v instead of 35 v for the sub.

Just a different way of being safer with the drivers when having a powerful amp.

If the amp is a low power amp and the drivers can handle way more power than the amp can put out then, no problem setting the gains by ear and a DMM is not necessary.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

My installer (a very respected one around here) says he usually sets things for -5db tone on the mains and -10db on the sub. Unless the owner is a serious bass head and there are worries of him blowing **** up in which case he sets it at -5db tone for both. For me he offered to do -10 db mains and -15 db sub because he knows I am not a bass head and am responsible with the throttle. I have since done things myself this time and the only one I worry about is the sub and I went with -10 db on it. The others I just did by ear. I do have an o-scope I want to try out for this if it ever freakin' warms up enough to do it here! Oh, and I was told to choose an appropriate tone for the bandpass being used for setting gains. I use 50 Hz on the sub and usually 1 kHz on the mains. I have alot more selection now so I will likely be using 40 Hz sub, 100 Hz midbass, 1 kHz midrange and 5 kHz tweeters whenever I get some heat here and some time to do it. I don't know if I will change anything at the amps in the end but it will be interesting to see what's going on. A new toy to play with.:laugh: My levels are alot moreso set in my dsp. Alot more easily controlled there.


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

james2266 said:


> My levels are alot moreso set in my dsp. Alot more easily controlled there.


Agreed, I don't have a DSP but my HU allows for level settings on the individual pre-amps, so I just maxed and matched the gains to achieve clipping at the same point on my HU volume, then just blended things using the levels. Was a hell of a lot easier than jumping out of the car and changing the gains and jumping back in to see how it sounded in the driver seat.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

ShaneInMN said:


> Yep I get that, but still if you're sending under the rated RMS watts that doesn't necessarily mean that you're not peaking frequently enough to thermally damage the speaker?


Its possible, just not likely. You will usually max out mechanically first.

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Right used -5db tones for comps and sub, i compared a 0db 1khz tone on cd to the 1khz tone on my usb drive and it was lower on the usb but anyway i used the usb -5db tones. Set sub at approx 750rms. And comps 100rms, sounds much better and much louder but im gonna double check because i feel with the -5db plus the lessness of usb makes it more than -5db, oh yeh also i smell hot components so i may up the crossover to 100hz


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I noticed something odd when i was setting my gains, when i had dmm hooked up and tone playing through bass amp with crossover fully open, lpf all the way up and when i set gain to 50v, when i bring crossover to 80hz, the voltage dropped on the dmm to 46ish and when i switched ssf to 15hz it went up to about 48.7, where its set, why would it do that when in playing a 40hz tone?


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

ImK'ed said:


> I noticed something odd when i was setting my gains, when i had dmm hooked up and tone playing through bass amp with crossover fully open, lpf all the way up and when i set gain to 50v, when i bring crossover to 80hz, the voltage dropped on the dmm to 46ish and when i switched ssf to 15hz it went up to about 48.7, where its set, why would it do that when in playing a 40hz tone?


Well... The subsonic I can't explain really but the 80p Hz cross could still be affecting 40 Hz and how much so would be dependent on the slope of that crossover. If it is only 12 db I would definitely expect a variation and possibly even with 24 db but alot less so.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Actually subsonic takes away some stress from the amp so yes a tiny boost on your dmm could be a result of this possibly too.


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## spyders03 (Jan 5, 2013)

I have always used 0db tones until recently. I was told to try -10 by an informative and secure source, and I couldn't be happier. We all know music is dynamic, but say dire straights - money for nothing, the average amplitude of that song is -15db rms. Most reference music is -20 to -30db rms. Songs like these were REALLY quiet in my car until I changed my gain structure, music came to life, and I wasn't running my head unit at 55 out of 60 all the time.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Am I the only human being alive that sets gains by ear? Should i just be smacked?


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

After all this messing about i so feel like its so easier to set by ear but i do like knowing where ive set it, im just trying different tones, tried -2.5db yday sounds ok but i like having not to turn up volume too high on hu so might go back to -5db, only thing is when i compare -0db tone on my jl cd to -0db tone on usb , theres over 10volts difference on sub amp, this makes me think with setting my gains via usb is making them higher


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

So i think i,ll burn them onto cd then do it -5db but i think


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

REGULARCAB said:


> Am I the only human being alive that sets gains by ear? Should i just be smacked?


I do a combination at the amps. I have been setting the sub and midbasses with a -5db tone but I might try -10db too. I also used my hand held o-scope to do the sub. It was a pain in the ass to get a reading tho but did notice I had severe clipping going on where I had it set previously. Maybe more experience will help me. The midrange/tweets I do completely by ear. I can easily tell when they have had too much. Also, I had to do so much eqing on the midranges that I ended up moving their gains up after anyways. The midbass/sub I had to lower to match in the processor too. Hopefully I'll get more time after x-mas to play with this more.



ImK'ed said:


> So i think i,ll burn them onto cd then do it -5db but i think


That's what I do but I think mine are 0db ref. Its the recordings that came with the Bit One. I riped the disc before I sold it. I hope my new H800 comes with something similar. When I am setting gains I just do it at 35/40 on the HU or I turn the gain down in the processor by what I want to set at. Seems to work alright for me.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Set the amp that runs your front mids and tweeters using a -10dB sine wave. Do this before setting your EQ. Then, adjust everything else for an appropriate balance.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

interesting, I set my gains so I don't have to turn the rotary encoder knob so many times, I like it to get happy between 35 and 40 out of 62.


maybe I don't mind a little noise, either. 

then again, if someone isn't mindful they could blow the speakers when I'm not around...


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

^noise? Do you mean when your amp gain is up ? Because i re adjusted mine with -5 with cd (i realised when i use usb its nearly 2db less than what tone i use) so i have abit of hiss whine from tweeters which i can hear , quite annoying that im not even half way up on gains and theres noise and im thinking -7.5 would be better so i dont have to turn volume up that high but then there will be even more amp noise (alpine mrx f35)


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

REGULARCAB said:


> Am I the only human being alive that sets gains by ear? Should i just be smacked?


No, I always set by ear as well. Only reason I use a tone and DMM is for level matching gains.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

ImK'ed said:


> ^noise? Do you mean when your amp gain is up ? Because i re adjusted mine with -5 with cd (i realised when i use usb its nearly 2db less than what tone i use) so i have abit of hiss whine from tweeters which i can hear , quite annoying that im not even half way up on gains and theres noise and im thinking -7.5 would be better so i dont have to turn volume up that high but then there will be even more amp noise (alpine mrx f35)


yeah, that's the trade-off with punching out the amp gain, so you don't have to sit there and spin the freaking knob to get up to volume.


noise.

it's not that I do it like that every time, but some of the slow responding decks sort of make me angry.

I grew up on good ol' analog potentiometers and when you twisted those, you were instant man, it was like righteous melody..


nowadays, you push a button on the remote and wait for the ramp up, it's a little thing but if you don't know what instant is like you just don't know.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Tuned using -5db tones, sounds great but i can smell hot focal coils with heavy bass tunes , i have them highpassed at 80hz , even though there is no audible distortion i can smell the coils, so what do people recommend? Higher cross point or reduce power ?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

REGULARCAB said:


> Am I the only human being alive that sets gains by ear? Should i just be smacked?


Must be an Arlington thing..I am in Arlington VT, and not only do I set mine by ear as well, I preferred my EQX sound over the helix dsp I bought. I should be forced to sell everything and listen to stock audio as punishment for being such a loser.


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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)

Some people tell me it's not okay using my ear method, although he couldn't explain why. 

Ear Method:

When everything is set like the frequency 40hz 1khz tones at -5db are being played though to the speaker outputs (no speaker connected), I adjust the gains slowly. While this is all happening I stick my ears real close to the amp I'm working on listening to a very faint buzzing within the amp. Once it starts to buzz I crank up the gain just a bit more to confirm I'm clipping then lower it to the point I can't hear at all.

I'm not sure it happens to all amps but all my amps do it. How sure am I? The DD-1 and my Fluke 105 Oscope confirms it when it starts, when it's happening and when it's settles down. So I don't see why that person who owns a install shop from another site advised me not to use that method when I'm simply listening while using my meters, really can't see his point. Everything needs to be quiet to hear that buzz, it gets louder the more you crank it. Try it, no harm in doing it as long as you have something to reference it with.I don't know the name of the component that does it but I'm sure it's the part sending electrical current for the positive and negative movements of your cone pulsing at that frequency you're using for that test. Sort of a MIDI on and MIDI off signal when using my MIDI keyboard instrument.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

i can imagine the torodial transformer acting weird if signal clips or something? Not sure?


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

What amps you have?


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## WhiteGhost (Oct 10, 2021)

It's all about head room with the -db test tones if your playing a old song at 0db you can crank it up and it just does not seem to be doing anything impressive. If you were tuned to say -7.5 or -10db that same so g will come alive. It is very nice to have a clip light on your bass knob/gain knob as every song acts different especially when using the -db tones , it will save your sub from launching into orbit. I can confirm that 0 and -5 db is not enough headroom for older music -7.5 and -10db is perfect. Also the voltage will change if using a VM to set target voltages from CD to USB I choose to set my voltages to which ever source plays higher as you will will not over power on that source for me I use my USB as it read higher then CD. Also you can set your LPF & Subsonic then set gain to target voltage. If you set gain with VM at highest frequency on mono amp and dial it back to say 80hz you will notice a voltage drop which equals less power to you can definitely make a slight adjustment when you set to 80zh to give you your small bump in voltage to reach your target. Make sure to use a 50/60hz tone as you VOLT METER/DMM works on that frequency NOT 40HZ test tones. Accuracy is key here if you do a back to back test using 40hz vs 50hz you will see a massive voltage Increase on the 40hz tone and will probally blast that sub to the moon like I did with my stupid alpine garbage 😂😂. USE 50HZ.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

@WhiteGhost

Nice work ghosting this out of a necro thread


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