# Ultra capacitors- are they the truth :o



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Installed a bank of super capacitors 

Maxell 2.7v Cell’s 3000F for a net of 500F (farads) 


My take on them is this analogy. 

The difference with and without to me is like the difference you hear when listening to a portable boom box on day old batteries vs. being plugged in.
Yes that big of a difference. 

My car has a 270A dual rectification alternator, XS power Group 34 battery, and two XS power xp750 power banks. I added the super capacitors and still noticeable (very noticeable) difference in sound. The bass is noticeably sharper and plays through the transients better no doubt and the highs are sharper and more transient. 


I added 1 bank, I’ve heard of ppl adding multiple banks, for me this was plenty. 

They took 25min to charge at 20A input from a 20A power supply. Smart battery chargers won’t see the load and won’t charge them fast or at all. I had to use a power supply to charge them. 

I’m sold on them. This made a substantial impact and improvement.

Would love to hear any other ppl that use super caps


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

I have the xs power 500 farad one. Same as what you have but inside a battery case. I love it. It can give way faster than a battery.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Mahapederdon said:


> I have the xs power 500 farad one. Same as what you have but inside a battery case. I love it. It can give way faster than a battery.




Was thinking about getting one of these as well. Did you notice better bass transients as well?


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

tonynca said:


> Mahapederdon said:
> 
> 
> > I have the xs power 500 farad one. Same as what you have but inside a battery case. I love it. It can give way faster than a battery.
> ...


Hell yeah. I have a mechman and huge power everywhere but was still dimming lights and dropping voltage down to about 12v. Now no matter how loud I turn it my voltage stays put. I first ran it without a battery and it worked fine but I was worried it being under the hood it might not last as long. It's in my trunk. It's only 11 lbs. Feels empty.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

It's on the wish list now


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## eststang (Nov 28, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> Maxwell 2.7v Cell’s 3000F for a net of 500F (farads)


Each cell is 3000F and capable of 2000A of current. You add them 6 in series so the total capacity is 500F. I wonder if this will also reduce the max available current, by how much?


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

eststang said:


> oabeieo said:
> 
> 
> > Maxwell 2.7v Cell’s 3000F for a net of 500F (farads)
> ...


It does lower current. The lower the farad the lower the current. But 500 farads is a **** load. I have a 1200 watt amp for my front stage and a 2400 watt amp for my sub. It's Def enough. You'd have to be into spl to ever need more than 1 Bank.

Says 10,000 amps max.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Just a quick question:

Being old school (nearly 30 years in the hobby) I was around when caps hit the scene in the early '90s. Back then a 1 farad cap was about the biggest you could get and it was recommended to install it between the amp fuse and the amp. Reason was the fuse would hinder the cap's ability to supply its current quickly to the amp. 

Now with these super caps and banks being many hundreds of farads, would a good sized amp fuse, say 100A or larger, be a hindrance for a say 500 farad cap bank?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

OP,

I like the way you can simply bolt the caps together to make a bank. 

That said, isn't there a need to use some sort of "balancing" circuit to keep the individual cells charged evenly ??


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

cmusic said:


> Just a quick question:
> 
> Being old school (nearly 30 years in the hobby) I was around when caps hit the scene in the early '90s. Back then a 1 farad cap was about the biggest you could get and it was recommended to install it between the amp fuse and the amp. Reason was the fuse would hinder the cap's ability to supply its current quickly to the amp.
> 
> Now with these super caps and banks being many hundreds of farads, would a good sized amp fuse, say 100A or larger, be a hindrance for a say 500 farad cap bank?


That I don't know.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

cmusic said:


> Just a quick question:
> 
> Being old school (nearly 30 years in the hobby) I was around when caps hit the scene in the early '90s. Back then a 1 farad cap was about the biggest you could get and it was recommended to install it between the amp fuse and the amp. Reason was the fuse would hinder the cap's ability to supply its current quickly to the amp.
> 
> Now with these super caps and banks being many hundreds of farads, would a good sized amp fuse, say 100A or larger, be a hindrance for a say 500 farad cap bank?


Keep fusing the same , a jule of current is the same no matter how it’s produced 


The thing with these is it is a buffer , so it is sort of a wall in a sense. The caps will charge very fast much much faster than a battery can absorb. So if you are pulling more current than the alt can provide the caps can cause a overall voltage drop and hinder the system. If your alt can keep up for the most part caps are magic. The sharp transients the caps can immediately provide , so can the alt , but the alt is unfiltered rectified power (comes out in pulses) so if the battery is low and has heated up internally (can’t charge quickly) it’s abil to filter ac is diminished. That’s where caps work great, they charge and filter and discharge to the voltage of the system. So while the battery is going through absorption charge the caps are the main filter and storage for amps and car 


That makes the alt last longer and the battery last longer and makes system work optimally.


TLDR if you don’t have enough raw current to run system caps won’t help


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Starting batteries can provide a ton of current for a short amount of time 

If you exceed the initial “cold crank” rating they take forever to charge 

A typical car battery is barley 50Ah of storage. That’s not very much. When pulling 100A , granted the alt will cover most of that, 


With caps you get 100% of the alt power , either used by the system or used as a buffer to charge battery as its absorption charge is prolonged


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

oabeieo said:


> Keep fusing the same , a jule of current is the same no matter how it’s produced


Thanks, that was what I was thinking too but wanted another opinion.



oabeieo said:


> The thing with these is it is a buffer , so it is sort of a wall in a sense. The caps will charge very fast much much faster than a battery can absorb. So if you are pulling more current than the alt can provide the caps can cause a overall voltage drop and hinder the system. If your alt can keep up for the most part caps are magic. The sharp transients the caps can immediately provide , so can the alt , but the alt is unfiltered rectified power (comes out in pulses) so if the battery is low and has heated up internally (can’t charge quickly) it’s abil to filter ac is diminished. That’s where caps work great, they charge and filter and discharge to the voltage of the system. So while the battery is going through absorption charge the caps are the main filter and storage for amps and car





















Back in the late '90s and early '00s there was a company called Alumapro that sold a 15 farad carbon alloy cap. It was named "The C.A.P." The internal capacitors were of a design that would naturally drain the dead over an hour or so if left connected to ground. It sold for several hundreds of dollars and the company sponsored several big name IASCA and USACi SQ competitors. The picture above is from Dale Fotenot's legendary T-bird. It's design required a 100 amp relay on the power wire before the C.A.P to keep it from draining the battery dead when the system was not on.

A friend of mine that had taken his '99 Honda Accord to a local shop that had a head installer with a lot of competition experience. He had a SQ system in the 1200 watt range. Dimming headlights caused him problems so the installer recommended installing one of these Alumapro "The C.A.P.s". Afterwards his battery kept going dead so the largest Streetwires battery that would fit into the car plus a 150 amp alternator was installed. The owner is an accountant by trade, knew little about how a car's electrical system worked, and trusted the installer way WAY WAY too much. He kept having electrical problems. His installer recommended adding a second or third "The C.A.P.". After spending thousands of dollars on the electrical system, he was starting to get reluctant at spending more money on it. 

He brought the car to me (about two hours away) and I first unhooked "The C.A.P. and the engine-running voltage started being steady. However the battery would go dead after only about 10 minutes of 80-90 dB listening. I checked the Streetwires battery, which he paid about $800 for including installation, and its side was ballooned out, which indicated one of its cells had internally exploded. I e-mailed Alumapro and they replied back with a .pdf of the C.A.P.'s installation instructions. The high dollar installer had NOT installed the 100 amp relay as per the instructions. The C.A.P. was draining the battery dead every time the engine was not running. Eventually this caused one or two of the battery's cells to explode. Thankfully the upgraded alternator seemed not to be damaged. 

I replaced the battery with an Optima and ungraded all the power and ground wiring from 4(!?!) to 1/0 gauge but he still wanted to use the C.A.P. since he paid so much for it. I had a 200 amp Stinger relay on hand and installed it according Alumapro's instructions. The relay was linked to the remote turn on wire.

When I turned on the system and the 200 amp relay switched on, the 1/0 power wire would jump about 1/2", every light in the car would dim, I would have a 4-6 volt voltage drop, and the engine would get bogged down. After about 5 seconds everything would come back up to normal. The C.A.P. had drained completely dead and when the relay turned on it pulled all the current in the whole electrical system for about 5 seconds to charge up. And to think the mega expensive competition level installer wanted to add a second and/third C.A.P. to the system! I guess he would have as long as the owner would have paid for it. After a few days I got the owner to let me permanently remove the C.A.P. from the system and he sold it on eBay.

After my C.A.P. experience I talked to several of the sponsored competitors on why they had it in their car. Most of them said they got one for free as sponsorship and after finding out how awful it was, left in their vehicle but not hooked up to anything. Some said they did put it in between the alternator and audio system batteries, saying it helped filter out alternator whine in their systems, but it was not near any amps or other equipment. 

Alumapro stopped selling the C.A.P. in the mid '00s.



oabeieo said:


> That makes the alt last longer and the battery last longer and makes system work optimally.
> 
> 
> TLDR if you don’t have enough raw current to run system caps won’t help


I'm still installing my system but I have a factory 150 amp alternator, all 1/0 gauge wiring (including the big 4), and a XS Power SB500-51 cap bank. Although I only have a 2550 watt system I plan on using the cap in the trunk just right before the amp's distribution/fuse block so all three amps will benefit from the cap bank. All three amps will have 150 amp fuses and will have 1/0 power wire to the amps and 1/0 grounds. It's overkill for this system, but I should not have to worry about any electrical problems.


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## Ripkon (May 9, 2019)

Running 4 banks of XS power. Love them


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## bassace (Oct 31, 2011)

Where do you guys purchase your Ultracaps from? Iirc, Tesla has purchased Maxwell. I wonder if they still sell to consumers.


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Oabeio always gets us hooked on stuff. I bought the ddrc 24 because him. Haha. Does he work for minidsp and a capacitor company. Just kidding.

I bought my power bank from xs power. They make separate caps or an all in one solution. I bought the one I did cause I didn't want them exposed risking a short or something. They are both the same caps though. Also I'm not sure how much you save getting single caps.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

I am wondering if it is simply fine to bolt the caps into series like the OP is doing, or if is ALSO necessary to add some sort of "balance" circuit or wiring for safety reasons... (i.e. fire danger due to overcharging if one cap fails internally) .


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

cmusic said:


> Thanks, that was what I was thinking too but wanted another opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’ve heard of ppl going through that quite a bit, makes me wonder if they had an ELD (Honda or Kia or the like ) that turns off the alt unless accessories are on. 


On your setup it looks perfect. Seems it should do the job nicely.
This super cap is a different animal. I think your going to like it a lot


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

seafish said:


> I am wondering if it is simply fine to bolt the caps into series like the OP is doing, or if is ALSO necessary to add some sort of "balance" circuit or wiring for safety reasons... (i.e. fire danger due to overcharging if one cap fails internally) .


Balancing is a good idea. 

I need (should) think about doing it .

Although not necessary. Not the least. Because all it does is drain the one with the most voltage, but if your running within 1v of the rated voltage (15-16v system) it’s almost a must have 


I’m running 14.4 on a 16v cap , fairly safe cushion, but still a good idea definitely!


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Ripkon said:


> Running 4 banks of XS power. Love them


Haha! Dope! 

Just curious, at full tilt what kind of voltage drop you seein car off ?


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

balance circuit is a must IMHO

a lot of european SQ competitors are putting banks of small 6 supercaps directly connected to each amp...thing perform very well

did anybody of you tested Lithium - Titanium battery ... as far as I know this kind of battery works awesome... just saw them at friends shop - 9 pcs equal to 90Ah.... comparable to 2-3 biggest Oddyssey batterys


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

LBaudio said:


> .....
> 
> a lot of european SQ competitors are putting banks of small 6 supercaps directly connected to each amp...thing perform very well
> 
> .....


And likewise I know of one top SQ competitor here in the states that put a Batcap 400 directly on each of his 4 amps in his system and he said it made a huge improvement in the sound. He was using certain brands of amps which are known to pull a lot of current. 

Got to make sure the amps have a supply of power greater than they need for the best amp performance.


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Put some super caps right on the rails of each amp. You'd need allot of caps but would be pretty cool.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

LBaudio said:


> balance circuit is a must IMHO
> 
> a lot of european SQ competitors are putting banks of small 6 supercaps directly connected to each amp...thing perform very well
> 
> did anybody of you tested Lithium - Titanium battery ... as far as I know this kind of battery works awesome... just saw them at friends shop - 9 pcs equal to 90Ah.... comparable to 2-3 biggest Oddyssey batterys



What do you think were rich  

Lol

Kidding , I’m about to buy one. The price is getting reasonable now. 

I think iron phosphate is the cheapest but only comes in 12v or 16v cells last I looked 

The XS power is still too rich for me. But I want one. 

You know of any that are affordable?

I like that li is constant voltage (meaning it keeps its voltage the same till it’s dead. I want to say I heard someone say on YouTube that it’s 80% DOD 
On most li packages , I haven’t done the research tho.


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## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

I use a 58f Maxwell cap in my install... I had it unplugged for 3 weeks and it kept a 13.5v charge... mine is balanced...


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

matdotcom2000 said:


> I use a 58f Maxwell cap in my install... I had it unplugged for 3 weeks and it kept a 13.5v charge... mine is balanced...


Yeah I had mine uninstalled for about a year , took an hour to drain it and 20min to refill it 

I discharged it for install , I’m guessing it kept 100% charge


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## carlthess40 (Aug 21, 2018)

Have you seen the 
cell Super Farad Capacitor ?

They are made up of these round caps that look like large watch batteries.
Here’s a few pics of them. I’d like to know if these would work as well as the large ones you guys are showing and using here


















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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

^^^


carlthess40 said:


> Have you seen the (coin) cell Super Farad Capacitor ?
> 
> They are made up of these round caps that look like large watch batteries.
> Here’s a few pics of them. I’d like to know if these would work as well as the large ones you guys are showing and using here


I think you answered your own question....the description itself that you posted literally says "ideal for long time backup for minute current devices" ... which is pretty much the OPPOSITE of what you would want for a super cap that is going to support a high current amplifier!!!

just my .02


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

matdotcom2000 said:


> I use a 58f Maxwell cap in my install... I had it unplugged for 3 weeks and it kept a 13.5v charge... mine is balanced...


This one ? I have one also. Even this small makes a huge difference. It’s now in the trunk when I heard heat is bad for them I moved it. 
Where did you get your caps at? Can cost too much for me at the moment.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I have two banks of those also 


Selkec said:


> This one ? I have one also. Even this small makes a huge difference. It’s now in the trunk when I heard heat is bad for them I moved it.
> Where did you get your caps at? Can cost too much for me at the moment.
> View attachment 289890


I have two of those also ... in my van

yes they can start the van without a battery , and it’s a cold start v6 and a Chevy which is heavy metal....

The big ones are the truth 

those are still legit


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