# Speakercable length, R vs L



## Jani X (Sep 10, 2009)

I've been told many times, that keeping your frontstage speakercables the same lentgh on both sides, will result in audibly better staging etc... 

Is there any truth in this? :worried:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

No....


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

chad said:


> No....


lol good answer! concise and to the point! I totally agree.



only exception would be if you have a 3 foot cable for one speaker and 13 miles for the other. then you may be able to hear a difference.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

minbari said:


> lol good answer! concise and to the point! I totally agree.
> 
> 
> 
> only exception would be if you have a 3 foot cable for one speaker and 13 miles for the other. then you may be able to hear a difference.


not from 13 miles away.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

lol


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

chad said:


> not from 13 miles away.


I just meant coiled up and put in the closet


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## Fetus (Apr 14, 2011)

minbari said:


> Only exception would be if you have a 3 foot cable for one speaker and 13 miles for the other. then you may be able to hear a difference.


Even with 3 feet of cable to one speaker and 13 miles of cable to the other, the difference would be less than 70 microseconds. You might do something to your crossover frequency having a coil that size in series with your speaker, though. Not to mention loss of output due to volt drop.


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## Jani X (Sep 10, 2009)

Brock_Landers said:


> I was told the same thing at a local Home Audio specialty shop that carries Marantz, RBH, etc. "Keep the lengths the same to avoid phasing/imaging issues." He also said to use the same awg wire for all speakers for the same issue.


I also remember reading "the HAT-dude" was using equal lengths for speakerwires in the Infiniti G35 project 
I dunno, maybe for aesthetical reasons. Maybe he said in the article.. where was it now...


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Looks would be the only reason, and then only if the entire length of wlre was on display...how fast does electricity move again?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

What next, is someone going to tell me that the sound waves generated by an 8" subwoofer are faster than those generated by a 15" subwoofer? Owait... that thread is over there ======>


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

i would be much more worried about unequal speaker distances.


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## Jani X (Sep 10, 2009)

hehe great stuff 

I only had some tiny doubts about things like ... lets say.... differences in the load that the amplifier experiences in outputchannels or similar. Causing differences in sound. But f it. 
There sure are some crazy things people do to "optimise" ...

Thanks!


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Fetus said:


> Even with 3 feet of cable to one speaker and 13 miles of cable to the other, the difference would be less than 70 microseconds. You might do something to your crossover frequency having a coil that size in series with your speaker, though. Not to mention loss of output due to volt drop.


Not if you use speaker wire elevator stands:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

IBcivic said:


> Not if you use speaker wire elevator stands:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


I have a ****load of those in my barn, Andy W. and I are going to start a biz selling them, I'll sell those, he has his eyes on selling pizza. Don't see how we can go wrong.


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## Thunderplains (Sep 6, 2009)

chad said:


> I have a ****load of those in my barn, Andy W. and I are going to start a biz selling them, I'll sell those, he has his eyes on selling pizza. Don't see how we can go wrong.


There can not possibly be wrong in selling wiring accessories and pizza.. Ever. Like selling firearms and ice cream.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Thunderplains said:


> There can not possibly be wrong in selling wiring accessories and pizza.. Ever. Like selling firearms and ice cream.


Ice cream and firearms... novel.

I buy a lot at the local farm supply place (not ****ting, great gun selection.) They give away popcorn and pepsi at the door.

I can see it now, I'd like to check out that Ruger, can you hold my cone for a bit?


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## Thunderplains (Sep 6, 2009)

Smith & Waffle cone Sunday


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## Fetus (Apr 14, 2011)

IBcivic said:


> Not if you use speaker wire elevator stands:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


This is so stupid. I just can't believe it. Why on earth are they using the standard power cable? And running it so close to the speaker cables? AND NO MAGIC CRYSTALS ON ANY OF THOSE CABLES?!?!? I just hope he has a travel alarm clock somewhere in that listening room...


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

Jani X said:


> I also remember reading "the HAT-dude" was using equal lengths for speakerwires in the Infiniti G35 project
> I dunno, maybe for aesthetical reasons. Maybe he said in the article.. where was it now...


If he was competing, it could be to try to maximize points for "attention to detail".

Had an argument with someone on another forum about this exact issue. He refused to accept the theory of the physics involved as an explanation so it got to the point I had to actually measure the differences for varying lengths of cable to prove there was no audible difference....after that he stopped arguing


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Yes, and naturally-occurring cone materials (wood, paper, even seaweed) are much better for reproducing acoustic sounds. 

Isaac Newton said: "'Tis the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries and for that reason to like best what they understand least." 

99.9% of the time I hear the phrase "phase issues" I know one of these religions discussions is coming.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I spoke to my freind who is used to setting up 100k+ home audio systems. He said the only time it 'might' matter is if your running long lines of cables, referring to Pro Audio, gig set ups in concert halls etc. Although some SQ person might be concerned about milliseconds, i'd question if having a 3 meter cable for the left and 4.5 meter cable would make any audible difference.


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## cmayo117 (Aug 14, 2009)

captainscarlett said:


> I spoke to my freind who is used to setting up 100k+ home audio systems. He said the only time it 'might' matter is if your running long lines of cables, referring to Pro Audio, gig set ups in concert halls etc. Although some SQ person might be concerned about milliseconds, i'd question if having a 3 meter cable for the left and 4.5 meter cable would make any audible difference.


It's not a matter of milliseconds. Electrical signals travel 300 kilometers in one millisecond. It's more like nanoseconds.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

cmayo117 said:


> It's not a matter of milliseconds. Electrical signals travel 300 kilometers in one millisecond. It's more like nanoseconds.


I think there's a lot of bull when it comes to audio in general and so its not unusual that the same thinking is in car audio as well. Myths, misinformation and old wives tales are perpetuated at a rapid rate thanks in-part to the internet .. the 'mis-information' super highway.

I neglected to say that on my friend last install which i was present at) £180,000 install in a rather nice establishment, with £30,000 of that ging on cables. So my friend replaced an £X,XXX RCA cable with a £100 cable and asked the owner to identify which was which. could the customer tell the difference? could he heck!

I'm not here to dispute anyone's hearing or listening preferences, but i was always taught to listen with your ears not your eyes. 

When my friend won first place in a local SQ competition my first thoughts were; do the judges have hearing impairments? My Morel Tempo 6's on an old skool pioneer amp sounds far better than his multiple speaker and tweeter arrangements. To me his car was an SQ enthusiasts nightmare.


I've been contacted by someone who is competing with a very prestigious brand, with a possibly of me helping them with their system in a very minor capacity. Now I've no interest in competing, but i am interested in SQ. 

My only concern was a comment made, (paraphrasing) the team member used the phrase; *the trend is!*

I don't mean to cast a shadow on such competitions, or the people involved, however, I'm not sure what*'trends'* the fashion is now. Tweet-less set ups? back to kick panels installs? I still loved it when I floor mounted my Tempo's. I've heard this comment about _trends_ on more than one occasion. It make me nervous about the whole process. 

I also feel nervous, because this team wants to (in the words of my contact) "go against the trend" does this mean that regardless of how good the system is set up, if it doesn't follow some innovative idea, that a place on the podium is unlikely?

In home audio, I always noticed that there were two groups of people. Group A would listen with their eyes, group B would listen with their ears (for now i won't expand on that). I wonder which group people in car audio fall into?
*
Cable* - Realistically, one side is going to have what ...,. 1, maybe 1.5 meter of extra cable at the most? I think there are many factors in a speaker sounding good or bad, including the quality of cable (but not at £1,000 per metre). As to the length of 1.5 metres difference, unless the people who claim that they can hear a difference are descendants from the planet Krypton, I would say; such differences are inaudible.

The only real Audio comparison test that i did that no one got, was with my Senneihser HD650 headphones, Ray Samuels Hornet 'N' headphone amp, Cardas mini to mini cable. I asked 5 sound engineers 2 students, 3 professionals to spot the difference with varying bit rate of music. Not one identified them correctly, 128, 237 and 320 ... not one!


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## SuMb0dY (Oct 23, 2012)

A friend of mine once told me he thought I must have done an outstanding job installing my sub-woofer in my old car because there was no timing issues. I haven't heard of such problems in anyone's installs that I know of, and timing wasn't something I've ever thought of or planned for in any install. For the most part, a car is extremely symmetrical, I would be pretty surprised if my speaker cable lengths are more than 1.5 feet different between right and left sides. My amp is pretty close to the center of my trunk, with wires taking nearly identical paths on the right and left side. This just happens without even thinking for nearly all installs. 

Not to mention those expensive pioneer SQ headunits have those microphone accessories to automatically detect time adjusting features. What does this do? is this even useful?

I am in the middle of an install of my own for front components and was wondering if I needed to think about timing. Seems like its nothing that needs planning or advanced thought, any objections?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Don't worry about speaker length.

Those electrons in that wire are moving many, many, many magnitudes of the speed of sound, therefore any time alignment will be solely based on speaker location.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

I actually did the math for this earlier this week because someone asked me this question directly regarding a PA install. My response was this, in the nicest tone possible: 
"...adding 300ft of cable should not be enough to induce noticeable problems... If my math is correct, the time delay effect would be roughly the same as the mics being 0.0000034 meters different in path length." 

And 3.4x10^-6m is like, really small.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

auto-dupe yehaw


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

94VG30DE said:


> And 3.4x10^-6m is like, really small.


That's what she said.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

That equates to 0.000134"... that is the diameter of the average human hair, divided by 50!


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## gravel (Jun 24, 2012)

First off, I'm a nobody when it comes to audio. But I do have enough understanding of how things work to be a decent smartass when I feel the need...

So I have a guy trying to sell me an overpriced install tell me he's gonna "length match" the wiring. Curious, I ask him WTF he's talking about, he gives me a line of BS about bad time alignment and phasing issues caused by "non length matched" wiring. So I said to him that as a commercial electrician that we "mass match" controls wiring by using thicker wire on the shorter runs, so the "mass" of all runs equaled out. Total BS, but the guy looked at me like he'd just heard the secret to everlasting youth! I've wondered for years if he ever learned enough to understand that he was wrong to begin with, and that I blew a whole bunch of smoke up his ass...


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## feeshta (Oct 2, 2011)

I remember years ago one of the real high end home audio magazines set up an experiment to test this notion. They did a blind listening test with 50 or so professed "audiophiles", and challenged them to tell the difference between two setups. One setup had the insane, supercrystal-infused snakeoil du jour speaker cables. Then an identical system had speaker cables spliced together from all the leftover scraps they had in the trash using crimp connectors, black electrical tape, solder joints, etc, and they made one cable 3 feet long with the other being 100 feet or so. Basically they intentionally broke every possible "rule" of speaker cables. 

Not one of the testers could accurately pick which was the high end, and which was the frankensystem. So, case closed on that one. 

The same publication also did a test challenging vinyl afficionados, and found that they universally prefered the sound of CDs with vinyl pop and hiss added, over actual vinyl recordings. They told them they were listening to two different turntables, and asked them to choose which they would prefer to have themselves. :laugh:


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

If we are going to be this picky then I would say that if you have dual climate control, that would be more likely to cause a timing issue before the length difference in rt and lt wires. Sound travels faster through warmer air so lets make sure both zones are the same temperature. lol


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

RNBRAD said:


> ...if you have dual climate control, that would be more likely to cause a timing issue ... Sound travels faster through warmer air so lets make sure both zones are the same temperature. lol


Awesome. Thank you. I have a new "audio snob" sig!


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

94VG30DE said:


> Awesome. Thank you. I have a new "audio snob" sig!


Lmao, it is pretty funny!! :laugh:


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I have always matched wire length, cant hurt anything right?. I just figured if one had a longer run the resistance woud be unequal and 1 speaker would play louder.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Richv72 said:


> I have always matched wire length, cant hurt anything right?. I just figured if one had a longer run the resistance woud be unequal and 1 speaker would play louder.


It certainly doesn't hurt anything, for sure. And if it satisfies a little bit of your (and perhaps a judge's) OCD, then more power to you. I just wouldn't get to obsessive and preachy over it, because it does effectively nothing*

*nothing = according to physics, produces extremely negligible effects in the environment in question.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Richv72 said:


> I have always matched wire length, cant hurt anything right?. I just figured if one had a longer run the resistance woud be unequal and 1 speaker would play louder.


what do you do with the extra wire on the short side?

The answer to that question could be FAR more detrimental than not matching length.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

chad said:


> what do you do with the extra wire on the short side?
> 
> The answer to that question could be FAR more detrimental than not matching length.


I think the best thing would be to coil it up in a perfect circle, then lay it along the power wire.


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