# Ensolite vs. Deflex



## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

Which do you prefer behind mids in the door? Are they going to provide the same effect or is Deflex superior for this purpose?

I have Ensolite back there now, but after spending so much money and time to get my doors perfect I would certainly be willing to spend the money and remove the Ensolite behind my mids and add the Deflex pads.

Also how would I remove the ensolite from the inside of the door? Acetone? Flamethrower? Make my wife do it?

Thanks all.


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## jakesford (Jun 27, 2007)

secondskin... And flamethrower, just be sure to film it for a "how to"


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

ghart999 said:


> to get my doors perfect..


This obstacle will surely hinder everything.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ghart999 said:


> Also how would I remove the ensolite from the inside of the door? Acetone? Flamethrower? Make my wife do it?


Just reach in, grab a handful and pull. Remove adhesive residue with mineral spirits or acetone and elbow grease.


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## Lightninghoof (Aug 6, 2006)

I purchased a pair of 11" Cascade Deflex pads and realized they wouldn't work because of a 3" bar that runs down the frame of the door. If you want them, let me know.


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

Lightninghoof said:


> I purchased a pair of 11" Cascade Deflex pads and realized they wouldn't work because of a 3" bar that runs down the frame of the door. If you want them, let me know.



Oh oh how much shipped to 80013? I did not know they made 11" pads. I thought they only have 7 or 9" circles.


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

00poop6x said:


> This obstacle will surely hinder everything.


You mean perfection is not possible in car audio? Damn.


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

I am in the process of ordering RAAMmatt and asked Rick about deflex pads. I'm sure he won't mind my passing along his response...

_ "We do not sell those pads, I have been very happy with just a patch of 
ensolite behind the speakers, even back in my competition days when I 
had a $7k set of hand made components!" _


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

Lightninghoof said:


> I purchased a pair of 11" Cascade Deflex pads and realized they wouldn't work because of a 3" bar that runs down the frame of the door. If you want them, let me know.


Would you send them to me in the interest of science? 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15764

p.s.- I already have ensolite....


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I've had good luck with the Deflex Pads.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

Ensolite > Smoke and Mirrors

-aaron


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

opinions... Just got me deflex pads in the mail.. I have rammmat and ensolite already on my doors, should I return my deflex pads?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

fredridge said:


> opinions... Just got me deflex pads in the mail.. I have rammmat and ensolite already on my doors, should I return my deflex pads?


"There's no kill like overkill."  I have always enjoyed that quote.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

This is totally non-scietific, but just for fun. Attach ensolite to a piece of sheet metal and do the same for the deflex pads. Then yell or talk very loudly into them. See which one works better. I think ensolite works very well over the the top of the deadening.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

THis is why I like my mids in the kicks.


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

keep in mind that deflex pads advertize dispersion of midbass frequencies whereas ensolite will merely absorb very very high frequencies. True? that needs to be measured.

But that will explain why the "yell" test should yield greater improvements using ensolite compared to the deflex pad.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I didn't try any tests other than the speakers turned up without and the speakers turned up with.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

I think I am going to return my deflex pads... they were only $16 but doors are deadened since their is no clear answer or winner I am going to just stick with ensolite


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## bangandow (Mar 3, 2007)

Maybe I'm way off base here... but aren't we comparing apples and oranges? The goal of the deflex pad is to break up the rear wave. Ensolite, like whiterabbit said, absorbs sound... two different products for two different purposes...

Now comparing deflex pads to eggcrate foam, that's a logical comparison. I say ensolite the doors to absorb road noise and throw a deflex pad in there to break up the rear wave.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Ensolite will do next to nothing for low midrange frequencies, it is too thin and not dense enough. Deflex might do some work, the material is thicker and denser but while the concentric design works to deflect it makes it fairly thin in some areas. Ensolite is good to quiet panel vibration, although I now doubt whether it has lasting effects. For high frequency absorption I think convoluted acoustic foam has the upper hand by design.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Theyre right. Check out the charts for ensolite sound absorbtion. Greatest at 5k. At 500 hz...just about nothing. 100 hz, absolutely nothing. I did my whole car in ensolite...

Deflex pads are different all together, they have more mass and can absorb midbass and bass frequencies. Put ensolite over the deflex, now thats an idea. Whatever passes through the ensolite will be absorbed (to a point).


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Lightninghoof said:


> I purchased a pair of 11" Cascade Deflex pads and realized they wouldn't work because of a 3" bar that runs down the frame of the door. If you want them, let me know.


Why wouldn't you just simply cut the pad to fit?? less than a minute with a razor knife and they would be usable..


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

BlueSQ said:


> Theyre right. Check out the charts for ensolite sound absorbtion. Greatest at 5k. At 500 hz...just about nothing. 100 hz, absolutely nothing. I did my whole car in ensolite...
> 
> Deflex pads are different all together, they have more mass and can absorb midbass and bass frequencies. Put ensolite over the deflex, now thats an idea. Whatever passes through the ensolite will be absorbed (to a point).


What if you did the Deflex OVER the ensolite?? 

After the Overkill Pro install...










Deflexed.... lol...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

BlueSQ said:


> Theyre right. Check out the charts for ensolite sound absorbtion. Greatest at 5k. At 500 hz...just about nothing. 100 hz, absolutely nothing. I did my whole car in ensolite...
> 
> Deflex pads are different all together, they have more mass and can absorb midbass and bass frequencies. Put ensolite over the deflex, now thats an idea. Whatever passes through the ensolite will be absorbed (to a point).


More mass has nothing to do with the ability to absorb midbass and bass frequencies. Thickness is the only thing that effects that and you could not fit something in the door that would effectively absorb midbass nor even in the car itself to absorb bass frequencies - it isn't going to happen.Neither will hurt. I believe that what deflex pads really do is further lower the panel's resonant frequency, just like any other mass would. Take a look at the lengths of the waves you are talking about - 100Hz is 135.6 inches long. You'd need an absorber hat's 1/4 of that - 2.825 feet thick.


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## coke (May 6, 2008)

I have used ensolite and deflex pads. I switched from ensolite to deflex pad and could immediately hear an improvment.

I also already had about 4 layers of Raamat behind my mids.


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## coke (May 6, 2008)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Why wouldn't you just simply cut the pad to fit?? less than a minute with a razor knife and they would be usable..


In a previous install, i just glued the pad onto the bar. Held up just fine


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

coke said:


> I have used ensolite and deflex pads. I switched from ensolite to deflex pad and could immediately hear an improvment.
> 
> I also already had about 4 layers of Raamat behind my mids.


Everything I do makes a difference I can "hear" - doesn't mean it has really changed. If you can describe a mechanism that would account for the improvement, other than added mass and maybe a little viscoelastic damping, I'd be all ears.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> More mass has nothing to do with the ability to absorb midbass and bass frequencies.


What? Yes it does. Fire a sub at 28 feet of concrete. Then fire it at 28 feet of ensolite. I think u get the idea


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

BlueSQ said:


> What? Yes it does. Fire a sub at 28 feet of concrete. Then fire it at 28 feet of ensolite. I think u get the idea


That's not absorption. I'm not sure what you are asking me to extrapolate from 28 feet of concrete/28 feet of Ensolite to 1/8" of Ensolite and 1/4" of rubber? Concrete may be a better barrier, but that isn't going to help with a back wave inside a door.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> That's not absorption. I'm not sure what you are asking me to extrapolate from 28 feet of concrete/28 feet of Ensolite to 1/8" of Ensolite and 1/4" of rubber? Concrete may be a better barrier, but that isn't going to help with a back wave inside a door.



It was a bad example im just relating it to mass. Mass is required for low frequency absorption is what I'm saying, more than what ensolite provides. If ensolite had say a backing of say 1/2" floor grade rubber, it would be quite a resiliant sound absorber.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

ummm mass has nothing to do with absorption. If that was the case lead would be a an ideal absorbent surface, yet it reflects sound. You can add mass to a panel to change its resonant frequency. I think what you're aiming for is density, where higher density materials will generally weigh more. It's a case of correlation.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

BlueSQ said:


> It was a bad example im just relating it to mass. Mass is required for low frequency absorption is what I'm saying, more than what ensolite provides. If ensolite had say a backing of say 1/2" floor grade rubber, it would be quite a resiliant sound absorber.


You keep asserting that, but I don't think you are correct. Mass is critical to blocking sound. Thickness relative to wave length is the determining factor for absorption. Resilience is a factor in vibration damping. They are distinct processes. Density may impact how well a material absorbs sound, for better or worse, but only its thickness determines the frequencies it absorbs. To absorb mid-bass and bass, you need some very thick stuff.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

ArcL100 said:


> Ensolite > Smoke and Mirrors
> 
> -aaron


Ensolite is greater than Smoke and Mirrors?

Or did you mean Ensolite = Smoke and Mirrors?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

are deflex pads stiff or flexible? I have a reinforcement bar running behind my speaker also.


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## James Bang (Jul 25, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> are deflex pads stiff or flexible? I have a reinforcement bar running behind my speaker also.


they are flexible.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

BeatsDownLow said:


> are deflex pads stiff or flexible? I have a reinforcement bar running behind my speaker also.


Yeah, they're flexible, they are rubbery like.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

89grand said:


> Yeah, they're flexible, they are rubbery like.


so i can just mold it around the bar then?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

^^ nevermind i will just cut it and put it above and below the bar since the bar is not flat it will deflect the waves away


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> Take a look at the lengths of the waves you are talking about - 100Hz is 135.6 inches long. You'd need an absorber hat's 1/4 of that - 2.825 feet thick.


Good point - exactly where I'm going with this... how in the hell does a polymer-based disc with little ridges of ARBITRARY spread and amplitude amount to this magical long-wave dispersing mechanism??? Furthermore, deflecting sound-waves in a closed cavity is deflecting sound-waves in a closed cavity - how is deflecting them one way better then another?



89grand said:


> Ensolite is greater than Smoke and Mirrors?
> 
> Or did you mean Ensolite = Smoke and Mirrors?


It's pretty easy to reason that a foam of any sorts will have some degree of filtering and also use as an effective decoupler. Ensolite has it's place.

Deflex pads are smoke and mirrors in that they make unsubstantiated claims. The most I could find in a quick google search was a "before and after" decay plot. There is absolutely no science I could easily find behind them. Honestly, if there was some sort of math behind the ridges, ever deflex pad would be identical. Instead, it's a product of whatever waffle iron mold each vendor stumbled upon. I would love to have a detailed scientific explanation of the workings of a deflex pad instead of only reading claims as to what it will do to the quality of your sound.

-aaron


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

coke said:


> In a previous install, i just glued the pad onto the bar. Held up just fine


yup, use the gel super glue and just wrap it around the bar. in my (probably flawed) logic, that helped even more b/c now the waves are bouncing off of ridges on a non flat surface...super dispersion.


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## Duke Thorens (Mar 31, 2010)

Everybody knows Ensolite is superior for that great absorption you really appreciate when you have some guy who shoots a double-leg takedown & you fall like a ton of bricks. The posters from Iowa & OK should know that!


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## Turbopit (Mar 24, 2011)

Duke Thorens said:


> The posters from Iowa & OK should know that!


I sure do! 

Mike <--- Grew up in Iowa and shot many doub;e-legs in my day.


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## Duke Thorens (Mar 31, 2010)

Turbopit said:


> I sure do!
> 
> Mike <--- Grew up in Iowa and shot many doub;e-legs in my day.


Yep, much sweat lost on the mats over the years, am > 40 y.o. now, _wayover...& occasionally still 'test the mat for suppleness' 

This site is a great place to waste hours. At least the wife doesn't have to wonder where you are. Plenty of info, but I am not going to spend $$$$ on a system only to have it ripped-out by some punk. I like to read about the tech. though._


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

cut or drill a bunch of holes in the deflex, and then apply it over the ensolite so that you have a 60/40 or some other ratio of deflex to ensolite. maybe you'll get 75% of the benefits of both?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Both approaches have been discredited since this thread began. A 1/8" layer of anything is going to do much below 27 kHz. Be a very strange configuration if that's the problem frequency range inside a door. Beyond that, all closed cell foam is very bad at absorbing sound. Use if for the purpose for which it is intended - decoupling. If you have room for a 2" thick absorber, you could get that down to something like 1.7 kz. Remember that water runs through doors. You don't want to trap it.

Textured pads depend on the distance between the peaks and valleys. Even if that difference is 1/2", you'll still be targeting something like 6.8 kHz and above. Most I've seen are thinner than that. Most of these products claim to prevent the door mounted speaker back wave from reflecting off the outer door skin, striking the back of the cone and giving the speaker the heebie jeebies. There's probably nothing more effective for this than the side impact protection beam that's already there. Perceived audible improvement is almost certainly the result of adding mass to the outer door skin and lowering it's resonant frequency. This shouldn't be an issue for properly damped sheet metal - less so if you've sealed and reinforced the baffle plane (inner door skin), rendering the back wave almost completely irrelevant.


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