# SONYS NEW XAV-9500ES DECK!! LOOKS PRETTY AMAZING!! NEWER ESS CHIP THAN THE GS9!



## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

Sony Electronics Welcomes New XAV-9500ES In-car Media Receiver to its Premium Mobile ES™ Lineup


/PRNewswire/ -- Sony Electronics Inc. today announced the XAV-9500ES – the Mobile ES™ lineup's first in-car media receiver with high-res audio capabilities....




www.prnewswire.com





This looks like one amazing deck. I watched a presentation and its suppose to be the GS9 with a better ESS chip and all the bells and whistles of a double din. It can stream hi-res, and mych more, looks pretty amazing when it comes out. Suggested retail price when it cones out in November of $1300, thought honestly it would be around $1500+


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

5 Star just released a video this morning with a little more info too. Looks like the one to have from what I’ve seen.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

DaveG said:


> 5 Star just released a video this morning with a little more info too. Looks like the one to have from what I’ve seen.


Yeah i seen that one


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## aztec45 (Jul 23, 2007)

Has idata link... Doesnt look like it has optical out.. Need to keep a eye on it 

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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

gumbeelee said:


> Sony Electronics Welcomes New XAV-9500ES In-car Media Receiver to its Premium Mobile ES™ Lineup
> 
> 
> /PRNewswire/ -- Sony Electronics Inc. today announced the XAV-9500ES – the Mobile ES™ lineup's first in-car media receiver with high-res audio capabilities....
> ...


Of course, it has no f'ing optical output!


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

That price and the screen isnt 1080p and doesnt have digital output. This just makes me want to look at that joying even more.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

The thing about the optical out though is u r not taking advantage of the ess chip…thats why i dont run optical out of the gs9. You want to take advantage of the ess chip. Dont get me wrong i think it should have optical output available.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

gumbeelee said:


> The thing about the optical out though is u r not taking advantage of the ess chip…thats why i dont run optical out of the gs9. You want to take advantage of the ess chip. Dont get me wrong i think it should have optical output available.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The ESS chips are good, but are they as good as the DAC's in a Helix dsp or the MiniDSP 8x12? Good enough to justify the additional conversions?


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> The ESS chips are good, but are they as good as the DAC's in a Helix dsp or the MiniDSP 8x12? Good enough to justify the additional conversions?


I believe they are 100% good enough for the extra conversions, but again i will never argue about a clean pure audio source the optical provides. I honestly think they are better than the dacs in the helix…the ess chips are considered some of the best dacs in the world


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveG said:


> 5 Star just released a video this morning with a little more info too. Looks like the one to have from what I’ve seen.


Yeah, I watched the *5 Star Car Stereo* YouTube Livestream of the announcement as well.

The *Sony XAV-9500ES* is what the *RSX-GS9* should have been! None of that silly proprietary Sony "Song Pal/Music Center" app crap, or tiny, useless display.

And in the announcement, Kris Bulla from Sony said that, "their isn't a Volume Knob because their wasn't any room for it". Whaaaa??? It's an external Floating Screen Display...how is there not room for a volume knob like on the Kenwood XR 10.1"? And GS9 owners LOVE the Volume Knob!

It does have a lot of great features, but IMO Sony had the opportunity to SMASH the competition, but didn't "Elevate the Standard" quite high enough....

For example, why did they remove the Toslink Output that the GS9 had??? Yes, I know that everybody used the GS9 for it's ESS DAC via the analog preamp outputs. However, the Analog Outputs of the GS9 were actually tested on *ASR* and found to be a really poor implementation of the ESS Sabre DAC and analog output stage).

Lots of people have moved to the *Stinger Elev8* and *Heigh10* for its Knobs AND Toslink output. And the Toslink output would have given the Sony a DISTINCT edge over the Kenwood XR units as well. Missed opportunity, IMO.

In addition, the Original Sony Mobile ES flagship decks would never have a built-in amplifier. I would have offered this as a Modular Option, like the "PowerStack" snap-on amplifier modules that Alpine makes to attach directly to the back chassis of their ILX-W series head units.

If you're going to use one of these Floating Screen head units just as a pure SQ source unit, I think I'd still prefer the Kenwood XR 10.1".


Here's a brief Comparison of the Differences in Features between this Sony ES and the Kenwood XR:

- The only real distinction in terms of Built-in DSP is that the Sony has an *8-Band Independent Left & Right Parametric EQ for EACH CHANNEL*, which is kind of a BIG DEAL if you really want to dial in your Soundstage and Tonality _without_ using a standalone DSP. HOWEVER...see below *

- The Sony is a Single-DIN chassis for a much broader range of installation possibilities. Both Kenwood 10.1" XR's are Double-DIN.

- They Both have a 10.1" Diagonal Capacitive Touchscreen Display with "Bonded Glass" for less reflections/higher contrast, etc. And they both have HUGE Bezels around the perimeter of the screen making the overall floating display significantly Larger than needed. If these bezels were slimmed down like most iPads and modern Tablets, they would not potentially obstruct the A/C vents and/or other OEM dash buttons & controls!

- The Sony has TWO programmable or assignable "custom buttons" along the bottom bezel. However, all of the Sony's other Tactile Push buttons are placed along the Top Edge, which would be useless and inaccessible if you wanted to mold the display flush into your dash or center console. Kris Bulla from Sony mentioned that they purposely gave the display evenly radius'd corners in order to provide for an easy custom, flush-molded installation.

- Sony specifies that they are using the latest ESS Sabre DAC. See below **

- The Sony has a built-in 4-channel *Class A/B* amplifier.

- They Both have Wireless Apple CarPlay and Android Auto along with _*iDataLink Maestro*_ compatibility.

- The Sony's USB-C port provides up to 3 Amps of current at 5v for Charging or powering HDD/SSD drives, while the Kenwood is just 1.5 Amps (which is usually plenty).

- Both have 3 sets of 5V analog RCA preamp outputs. The Kenwood analog RCA preamp outputs don't clip even at full 40/40 output volume. We will have to test if the Sony can actually reach the full 5V output without clipping like the Kenwood XR.

- The Kenwood has a *Volume Knob* (a big deal for ME, maybe not for others). Obviously this Sony is also an External Floating Display. I don't know why you "don't have room" to add a volume knob??? +1 for Kenwood IMO.

- Kenwood XR has a *HD Radio Tuner* (night & day difference if you still listen to AM/FM).

- Kenwood XR has *HD* Camera Input, and a Total of 4 possible Camera inputs. HELLO SONY, Composite video is from the 1980's and has serious resolution and quality limitations. It's 2021, mmkay. SMH


*The Sony's 6-channel RCA preamp outputs with the Independent L&R 8-band PEQ is definitely nice. HOWEVER, if you really want a killer system, 95% of people are going to NEED _At Least_ 8 Output Channels. If Sony could have incorporated 2 More unamplified channels via another set of Processed RCA preamp outputs, they would have killed the budget DSP market (R-F DSR1 & Dayton DSP-408, and the JL TwK88 to some degree).

And if they would have just kept the friggin' Toslink Output like on the RSX-GS9, they would have destroyed the *Stinger Heig10* and *Elev8* market, and also had an advantage over the *Kenwood XR* market to a large degree as well.

I've added Toslink outputs to head units that didn't have it in the past. It's not exactly easy, but it only costs like $5 Retail in parts to add it, SMH! The manufacturer's cost to do this is most likely much less. Then at least we would have the OPTION for those that want to use a high-end standalone DSP via direct Toslink output.

I wish that Sony would have put a 2nd USB-C port for USB input & Charging under or along the bottom of the floating display's bezel.



OH, and where is the new *Sony Mobile ES DSP* to match and replace the OG *XDP-4000X* and compete with Alpine's outboard DSPs???

I understand that the market has changed drastically, but the Sony Mobile ES and XES were ultimate "statement pieces" that helped to establish the True High End, and helped sell the lower lines.

Sony is now concentrating on pure profitability and is offering "consumer friendly" products as their "TOTL flagship" pieces. Don't get me wrong, it's a HUGE step in the right direction, but just a few additions could have made this Sony ES head unit the "no-brainer" choice among all.

Take a look at the new Sony Mobile ES components. They are $299, and there is not even a 3-way option, which they had in the previous non-ES *Sony XS-GS1631C *component set that was $399. Weird. But, I guess that this makes since given the DSP Network Mode features of this new ES head unit.

And if you look at the new and budget friendly _*Sony XS-W104ES*_ Mobile ES 10" subwoofer's specs, soft parts, and underlying design, it is nearly *IDENTICAL* to the previous 10" *Sony XS-GSW101* subwoofer. Sony just added a "fancy" polycarbonate basket/frame and slapped the "Mobile ES" logo on it. Seriously, take a look at both of them. And the polycarbonate frame is probably less effective in terms of thermal/heat dissipation than the old stamped steel basket.

I know I'm always the DEBBIE DOWNER here, but to me, Mobile ES used to mean _No Holes Barred _and _No Expense Spared_.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> Yeah, I watched the *5 Star Car Stereo* YouTube Livestream of the announcement as well.
> 
> The *Sony XAV-9500ES* is what the *RSX-GS9* should have been! None of that silly proprietary Sony "Song Pal" app BS, or tiny, useless display.
> 
> ...


Damn, great right up, i agree with alot of those points…the optical would have been cheap to add. I also agree the ES supposively means miney is no object i think they missed the mark with an oppourtunity to knock it out if the park, buf instead hit maybe a double. 


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

gumbeelee said:


> The thing about the optical out though is u r not taking advantage of the ess chip…thats why i dont run optical out of the gs9. You want to take advantage of the ess chip. Dont get me wrong i think it should have optical output available.


The thing is, Sony's implementation of the ESS Sabre DAC in the RSX-GS9 was tested by *ASR* and proven to be substandard...a poor implementation of what it is capable of for that kind of money.









Review and Measurements of Sony RSX-GS9 Car Receiver


This is a review and detailed measurements of Sony RSX-G9 high-end Car Media Receiver. It is on kind loan from a member. It retails for USD $1,499 so at the top of class when it comes to the category. In case you have not kept up, "Media Receiver" indicates the unit has no CD drive. So all...




www.audiosciencereview.com


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

doeboy said:


> That price and the screen isnt 1080p and doesnt have digital output. This just makes me want to look at that joying even more.


No built in nav either. At that price point, that's just not something you should have to rely on a phone and cell coverage for.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

doeboy said:


> That price and the screen isnt 1080p and doesnt have digital output. This just makes me want to look at that joying even more.


That, or the Kenwood XR, and Stinger Heigh10 or Elev8.

The Sony still has some really nice features and fits in a Single-DIN opening, so it's still a viable option. But I think Sony missed their opportunity to 100% slay the competition.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> The thing is, Sony's implementation of the ESS Sabre DAC in the RSX-GS9 was tested by *ASR* and proven to be substandard...a poor implementation of what it is capable of for that kind of money.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah i have read that before… they definately could have implemented it better but still hands diwn my favorite deck ever


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> That, or the Kenwood XR, and Stinger Heigh10 or Elev8.
> 
> The Sony still has some really nice features and fits in a Single-DIN opening, so it's still a viable option. But I think Sony missed their opportunity to 100% slay the competition.


AGREE 100% if there gonna call it a”SQ DECK” with the bells and whistles for the masses u do need optical out; but what i even hate more than that is the stupid built in amp what a waste of money


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

FAUEE said:


> No built in nav either. At that price point, that's just not something you should have to rely on a phone and cell coverage for.


IMO, Google and Waze NAV are way better than 95% of the standalone NAV software anyway. And it's a no-brainer to use them via Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.

FYI you Can DOWNLOAD multiple Maps for whatever regions you want to your smartphone when you're on WiFi (or cellular if you want), so having a Cellular Signal Does Not Matter while you are driving...the GPS signal is still present and the maps will still load and show your progress even with no cellular signal. You just loose any Real-Time info, such as traffic updates and speed trap info, etc. And those maps are Always Updated as long as you keep your smartphone app updated...

Look for "Offline Maps" in the app settings.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

Well they definately missed a golden oppourtunity….good night gellas


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

gumbeelee said:


> AGREE 100% if there gonna call it a”SQ DECK” with the bells and whistles for the masses u do need optical out; but what i even hate more than that is the stupid built in amp what a waste of money.


It's probably not a complete waste of money for everyone that will buy this. But in the past Sony's Flagship Mobile ES decks have not had built-in amplifiers and have been RCA preamp outputs + Digital outputs only.

Just my opinion, but Sony should have offered the amplifier as an optional "snap-in or snap-on module" to keep it amp-less for the purists who will use DSP and separate high-end amplifiers. Most of these built-in head unit amplifiers are essentially "add-on" modules anyway. Sure, this Sony A/B amplifier is supposedly high-quality, but I'd like to see some measurements compared to let's say the built-in Kenwood XR head unit amplifiers, which IME are fairly clean.

I think that Sony is also kind of missing out on additional standalone amplifier sales for themselves and for their dealers by including the built-in amps. If you're going to spend $1300 on a Flagship head unit for the ultimate in SQ, $250 more for a Sony XM-GS4 amplifier (made to be paired with the RSX-GS9) isn't much of a stretch! And you'd need a subwoofer amp anyway, so a decent 5-chanel amplifier with a lot more power and options makes way more sense!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

I think a F1 status style HU like what alpine just launched would have been the way forward…more HIRES orientated with the Sabre ESS 9038PRO dacs with 8 channel output and a proper DSP and optical output for DSP expansion…

Do people have cars that fit 10” screens these days? I would have thought a Director sized interface as a HU would have been a winner with more installation friendly options whereby there is no space for a traditional HU….

That F1 system just been launched is gonna kill a lot of “high end” setups imho - Alpine have followed the market in the right way… 

Sony has lost the plot imho… 


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> Yeah, I watched the *5 Star Car Stereo* YouTube Livestream of the announcement as well.
> 
> The *Sony XAV-9500ES* is what the *RSX-GS9* should have been! None of that silly proprietary Sony "Song Pal" app BS, or tiny, useless display.
> 
> ...


I'm not really that into optical output IF its benefits don't outweigh those of the analog outputs, which in this case they don't, but it really should be on there anyway since it would be easy to implement. I mean, come on, it supports all the same high quality digital media as the RSX-GS9, just add the optical out already.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

FAUEE said:


> No built in nav either. At that price point, that's just not something you should have to rely on a phone and cell coverage for.


I prefer my audio equipment to focus on audio, my phone already does navigation, I don't want another cell data connection for my hu.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> IMO, Google and Waze NAV are way better than 95% of the standalone NAV software anyway. And it's a no-brainer to use them via Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.
> 
> FYI you Can DOWNLOAD multiple Maps for whatever regions you want to your smartphone when you're on WiFi (or cellular if you want), so having a Cellular Signal Does Not Matter while you are driving...the GPS signal is still present and the maps will still load and show your progress even with no cellular signal. You just loose any Real-Time info, such as traffic updates and speed trap info, etc. And those maps are Always Updated as long as you keep your smartphone app updated...
> 
> Look for "Offline Maps" in the app settings.


Yeah, you can do that in Google Maps, or use an app that is made for offline navigation, like OSMAnd (Open Street Map for Android), I'm sure they make one for Apple products.


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## test13371997 (May 10, 2021)

doeboy said:


> That price and the screen isnt 1080p and doesnt have digital output. This just makes me want to look at that joying even more.


Comparing some POS joying to a GS9 replacement? lmao might as well run a full BOSS system at that point




bbfoto said:


> Take a look at the new Sony Mobile ES components. They are $299, and there is not even a 3-way option, which they had in the previous non-"ES" *Sony XS-GS1631C *component set that was $399.


According to 5star, there are tons of more products. But due to covid(and all that stuff), they had to hold back on some. Should be a fully encompassing set of gear. More speakers, subs, amps, DSP, etc


FAUEE said:


> No built in nav either. At that price point, that's just not something you should have to rely on a phone and cell coverage for.


Thats a good thing. Its 2021. Why spend another 400$ on a built in NAV, when you can use Apple CarPlay/Android Auto and have a way better NAV. And these things dont require a network connection.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

gumbeelee said:


> Yeah i have read that before… they definately could have implemented it better but still hands diwn my favorite deck ever
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It’s likely better than any other car radio perhaps currently made… but… for me it still doesn’t have a patch on a optical or coax input to my ultra and the one d/a conversion at the end of the processors signal chain


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

I love how in the video hes like wireless carplay and maestro, thats it, shows over  
At $1300 how about a volume knob and HD radio.


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree, at $1300, it's nice to have built in. Av as a backup. There's places without cell service, especially if you're going hiking, etc. 

IMO, I would rather have a built in nav than car play type crap.


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## Nakamichifan (Apr 1, 2018)

My new $350 9" tailor made to fit my vehicle no name Chinese Android unit with 6gb /128gb top of the line processor, HD screen, Optical out, Wi-Fi, wireless Carplay wireless Android Auto, Built in Nav GPS,(no network required includes gps antenna) DSP, Obd2 scanning capabilities. etc.. what more do I need? Oh yes the no name Chinese 8 channel amp with built in 10 channel full DSP on the way!


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Nakamichifan said:


> My new $350 9" tailor made to fit my vehicle no name Chinese Android unit with 6gb /128gb top of the line processor, HD screen, Optical out, Wi-Fi, wireless Carplay wireless Android Auto, Built in Nav GPS,(no network required includes gps antenna) DSP, Obd2 scanning capabilities. etc.. what more do I need? Oh yes the no name Chinese 8 channel amp with built in 10 channel full DSP on the way!
> View attachment 304413


oh


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## test13371997 (May 10, 2021)

M_Mark28 said:


> I love how in the video hes like wireless carplay and maestro, thats it, shows over
> At $1300 how about ... and HD radio.


HD Radio? do you not understand what type of consumer this is targeted towards? Who gives af about FM/AM. Personally, they should have not even included that


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## test13371997 (May 10, 2021)

Nakamichifan said:


> My new $350 9" tailor made to fit my vehicle no name Chinese Android unit with 6gb /128gb top of the line processor, HD screen, Optical out, Wi-Fi, wireless Carplay wireless Android Auto, Built in Nav GPS,(no network required includes gps antenna) DSP, Obd2 scanning capabilities. etc.. what more do I need? Oh yes the no name Chinese 8 channel amp with built in 10 channel full DSP on the way!
> View attachment 304413


some people would rather spend the money on something that will sound good and will last. No name Chinese DSP with who knows what DAC sounds like a great time


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## Nakamichifan (Apr 1, 2018)

test13371997 said:


> some people would rather spend the money on something that will sound good and will last. No name Chinese DSP with who knows what DAC sounds like a great time


Valid point but I do have a quad ESS DAC built in to my phone if need be.


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## test13371997 (May 10, 2021)

Nakamichifan said:


> Valid point but I do have a quad ESS DAC built in to my phone if need be.


that doesnt help. That means the ADC will be used as well in the HU. More conversions between analog and digital and the reverse


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Elektra said:


> Do people have cars that fit 10” screens these days? I would have thought a Director sized interface as a HU would have been a winner with more installation friendly options whereby there is no space for a traditional HU….


Like this? UTX-A09


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## aztec45 (Jul 23, 2007)

doeboy said:


> That price and the screen isnt 1080p and doesnt have digital output. This just makes me want to look at that joying even more.


I have a joying in one of my cars.. they are ok for what they are.. Raido reception sucks on them.. Also a hit or miss on trying to connect to my iphone.. Haven't tried it with my Samsung yet...

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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bikey said:


> Like this? UTX-A09


I looked at this but it’s not available in our country


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## aztec45 (Jul 23, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> That, or the Kenwood XR, and Stinger Heigh10 or Elev8.
> 
> The Sony still has some really nice features and fits in a Single-DIN opening, so it's still a viable option. But I think Sony missed their opportunity to 100% slay the competition.


I have had kenwood xr and Elev8.. Both great units.. Only issue I had with the elev8 was the way it filled the music on my iphone/ipod.. It was kind of hard to scroll all the way down to find a artist and if you touch the wrong part of the screen you will have to start over...

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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Elektra said:


> I looked at this but it’s not available in our country
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When I was looking at it, the sellers on the foreign ebay sites weren't shipping to the US and I couldn't get any Australian shops to reply to my emails. 
I can't figure out why Alpine is limiting it to the Asian market.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

Bikey said:


> Like this? UTX-A09


holy CRAP i wish i had known about this before, this is exactly what i would have loved in my previous install where i kept the double din oem unit and just wanted to play flac on the real stereo. great find!! why not make this part of Alpine USA's catalog. so dumb.
-- WOW, they even make a rear view mirror controller, WITH a freaking VOLUME KNOB????!?!?? the industry seems to be run mostly by fuc&ing retards. unreal.


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## Mooster1223 (Aug 3, 2020)

vactor said:


> holy CRAP i wish i had known about this before, this is exactly what i would have loved in my previous install where i kept the double din oem unit and just wanted to play flac on the real stereo. great find!! why not make this part of Alpine USA's catalog. so dumb.
> -- WOW, they even make a rear view mirror controller, WITH a freaking VOLUME KNOB????!?!?? the industry seems to be run mostly by fuc&ing retards. unreal.
> View attachment 304441


What's the part number on that mirror?


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

Mooster1223 said:


> What's the part number on that mirror?


*DAS-A09M*









New Release! Alpine DAS-A09M Mirror Monitor | Sound Garage


New Release! Alpine DAS-A09M HD night vision electronic rearview mirror - Designed to compliment the new Alpine UTX-A09S Commander.




soundgarageqld.com.au


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

test13371997 said:


> Comparing some POS joying to a GS9 replacement? lmao might as well run a full BOSS system at that point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When sending data digitally you don't even use the DAC on the headunit thus making the only point of the headunit an interface. The ability to download a wide variety of applications and store large quantities of data on the joying combined with the 1080p screen... wifi.. cellular.. etc is what makes it so much more feature capable than domestic units. The only thing it requires now is better low level voltage and perhaps a better DAC which can easily be gotten in China which again is pointless since it has digital.

If the BOSS unit was identical in features to the joying with an optical out to my DSP then again it would serve the same purpose. High end head units that have an amplifier and DAC are just stupid. Imagine selling to a user like that and not even realizing they all are going to have DSPs. Even more stupid is not including a digital out so you can remove another chip in the line of communications. Ultimately the sound will be defined by the DSP not the DAC in the headunit. This is pretty basic stuff to know you should spend more time reading and a lot less mouthing off.


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

aztec45 said:


> I have a joying in one of my cars.. they are ok for what they are.. Raido reception sucks on them.. Also a hit or miss on trying to connect to my iphone.. Haven't tried it with my Samsung yet...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Is it the latest joying? That thing looks like a knock out. In 1-2 years android units out of China will destroy the domestic brands.


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

[deleted - duplicate of another post]


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## aztec45 (Jul 23, 2007)

doeboy said:


> Is it the latest joying? That thing looks like a knock out. In 1-2 years android units out of China will destroy the domestic brands.


The one I have is for a vw model... Dont get me wrong they are worth the money. 

Going to sell the vw in a few months.. Will I get a another? No.. I'll get anothet kenwood xr again if I dont like the stock h/u.. Thought about going back to a eleve 8 or 10 but the search/scroll function on trying to find music isn't that good...

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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

I just use my ipad mini that i had ole doug from soundman fabricate into my tacoma dash and it runs into my gs9…i absolutely love my ipad as my “source unit” even though the gs9 sits behind the ipad i never even touch the gs9


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## Rbestuar (Jun 12, 2021)

Nakamichifan said:


> What's the model on this beauty
> 
> 
> My new $350 9" tailor made to fit my vehicle no name Chinese Android unit with 6gb /128gb top of the line processor, HD screen, Optical out, Wi-Fi, wireless Carplay wireless Android Auto, Built in Nav GPS,(no network required includes gps antenna) DSP, Obd2 scanning capabilities. etc.. what more do I need? Oh yes the no name Chinese 8 channel amp with built in 10 channel full DSP on the way!
> View attachment 304413


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bikey said:


> When I was looking at it, the sellers on the foreign ebay sites weren't shipping to the US and I couldn't get any Australian shops to reply to my emails.
> I can't figure out why Alpine is limiting it to the Asian market.


Yeah it’s a pity because it solves a lot of oem problems - with the optical output it’s a good option if you want a digital connection - also has Bluetooth and a tuner as well


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

vactor said:


> *DAS-A09M*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks awesome..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Elektra said:


> Yeah it’s a pity because it solves a lot of oem problems - with the optical output it’s a good option if you want a digital connection - also has Bluetooth and a tuner as well
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's got everything on my wishlist, including a mixer/switcher that integrates a generic RCA input (navigation instructions, or whatever). Oddly, the one thing they apparently left out is the ability to control an Alpine DSP.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I have the UTX A09 in my TSX and one ready for install on my other car. The mirror control is extremely difficult to find anymore bc of the chip and parts shortage but hoping to pick one up for my other car


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

How does the mirror install work - does it clip onto your existing mirror or ??
How did you source the A09s? (feels like "overnight parts from Japan" territory)


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bikey said:


> How does the mirror install work - does it clip onto your existing mirror or ??
> How did you source the A09s? (feels like "overnight parts from Japan" territory)


You can get them off EBay - I see there is stock in Australia…

Stupid that Alpine don’t supply everyone - like oem solutions are only a Asia and Australian problem…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Over here you get crap from Alpine - cheap single dins and overpriced double dins

This would take over the market if they brought it in… 


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

The ebay sellers I saw (in Australia) would not ship to the US. There were some other Asian sellers but the prices were a bit higher and the selling platforms seemed sketchy.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

I'm with BBFOTO. And I must add, "Yawn."

ESS ship ESS schmip. DACs have come so far, even my picky arse can hardly tell a diff between a "decent" DAC and a Burr Brown dual DAC modded by TaraLabs.

ESS chip. If that's the only real selling point to that tugboat of ugly, I'd rather stream from my phone to a DSP of my choice.

"Ooooooh! Everybody love tablet! Make new head unit look like tablet!" - sony marketing dept.

And the buttons on top are dumb AF, for reasons mentioned before, as well as lack of ergonomics.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

Old'sCool said:


> tugboat of ugly


hahahahahah


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

I know I'm not the only one who thinks the previous model is way sleeker. Lol


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Mic10is said:


> I have the UTX A09 in my TSX and one ready for install on my other car. The mirror control is extremely difficult to find anymore bc of the chip and parts shortage but hoping to pick one up for my other car.


Nice. I've always found it baffling why many of Alpine's, Sony's, and Pioneer's former Carrozzeria JDM lines aren't distributed and sold worldwide, and/or why they have regional market restrictions.

In some instances it may be due to regional laws and restrictions that apply to automaker's ICE systems, but most of this is also global or universal at this point.

And I can't imagine that providing a universal or selectable-band tuner module for different regions would be all that difficult, or add too much to the overall cost.

Just look at all the different models and available internal frequency bands that the various cellular smartphone manufacturers offer in much smaller form factors compared to typical head units.


Seeing Alpine release their 3rd Gen F#1 Status line is great, but I seriously question their decision to stick with just an 8 channel DSP?

Yes, I'm sure that you can simply add a second DSP unit to the system like the previous generation. But why should that be necessary when most people's needs in this particular High-End market segment will be met with 10-12 total output channels?

And even in the High-End market segment, people still want to keep their convenience features such as a 2-DIN or larger display for vehicle cameras, NAV screen, the Touchscreen GUI, etc. I'm guessing (and hoping) that the DAS-A09M rear-view mirror unit might also integrate with the F#1 Status system to provide these functions.


And since this new Sony Mobile ES HU doesn't have a volume knob, one option that I'd love to see them offer is a high quality Rotary Commander Remote like the RM-X90 for the previous CDX-C90. I'd LOVE to have this option for the standard DD In-Dash Kenwood XR head units as well.

Maybe I'm oldschool, but I could pretty much control all of the playback and source switching functions of the system, as well as volume level and mute, without ever taking my eyes off the road by using the tactile and well placed buttons and rotory knobs on the RM-X90 remote.

And when driving through the many canyon and mountain roads that I frequent on the west coast, accessing and using the steering wheel controls isn't always easy when the steering wheel is constantly racking left and right through the twisties with a potential 1,000 ft drop looming and ready to swallow you up.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Same reason you can't get a


bbfoto said:


> Nice. I've always found it baffling why many of Alpine's, Sony's, and Pioneer's former Carrozzeria JDM lines aren't distributed and sold worldwide, and/or why they have regional market restrictions.
> 
> In some instances it may be due to regional laws and restrictions that apply to automaker's ICE systems, but most of this is also global or universal at this point.
> 
> ...



Same reason you can't get an STi RA or STi 2.0L 206 in America.

We
Nuked
Them.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

gumbeelee said:


> I just use my ipad mini that i had ole doug from soundman fabricate into my tacoma dash and it runs into my gs9…i absolutely love my ipad as my “source unit” even though the gs9 sits behind the ipad i never even touch the gs9.


In that case (if you are running analog out from the GS9) you could replace it with a tiny ~$120 Hidzs S9 or S9 PRO USB DAC dongle with a balanced output. You'd lose a few functions, which might be a deal-breaker, such as the AM/FM tuner, SWC, and BT hands-free calling. But from a pure SQ Source perspective it could work well.

The *Hidzs* USB DACs were tested by Amir at *Audio Science Review* forums and on his YouTube channel to have excellent performance. He provides a graph chart that ranks over 100 USB DACs.

Not sayin' it's the best solution, but it's an inexpensive option that would offer very convincing performance.


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

I looked through the install instructions on the A09 and it doesn't appear to have a way to interface with an Alpine DSP.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> Nice. I've always found it baffling why many of Alpine's, Sony's, and Pioneer's former Carrozzeria JDM lines aren't distributed and sold worldwide, and/or why they have regional market restrictions.
> 
> In some instances it may be due to regional laws and restrictions that apply to automaker's ICE systems, but most of this is also global or universal at this point.
> 
> ...


I just hope that you will be able to buy alpines f1 status al a carte, but from what i have been reading you have to buy the complete f1 system, hope this is not correct. I meant I know they designed all of these to be “synchronized” together but still think u should have al a carte choices


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Bikey said:


> How does the mirror install work - does it clip onto your existing mirror or ??
> How did you source the A09s? (feels like "overnight parts from Japan" territory)


At 0:55 in the following video you can see that it clips or straps to your existing rearview mirror...


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

There is no debate about the X90 being the absolute best car audio remote ever when only considering functionality.

That seems like an easy and expected add-on with today's integration needs.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Nice. I've always found it baffling why many of Alpine's, Sony's, and Pioneer's former Carrozzeria JDM lines aren't distributed and sold worldwide, and/or why they have regional market restrictions.
> 
> In some instances it may be due to regional laws and restrictions that apply to automaker's ICE systems, but most of this is also global or universal at this point.
> 
> ...


The "funny" thing with the ATX U09 is that it isn't a Japan release. It's available in most are EU, Aus and Asia....but not Japan.

Default menu is in Chinese.

It has toslink and coax out, I'm using Toslink to Ps8Pro.

Hopefully will find the Das mirror soon


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Mic10is said:


> The "funny" thing with the ATX U09 is that it isn't a Japan release. It's available in most are EU, Aus and Asia....but not Japan.
> 
> Default menu is in Chinese.
> 
> ...


Weird. Times are changing! 

Will probably not be widely available until September or October. 

But having both coaxial & Toslink is nice. Is the Toslink output fixed at full -0dB, variable, or switchable between the two?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Weird. Times are changing!
> 
> Will probably not be widely available until September or October.
> 
> But having both coaxial & Toslink is nice. Is the Toslink output fixed at full -0dB, variable, or switchable between the two?


Pretty sure it's fixed. But....the benefit of Alpine is that can still control volume from source. Big reason I got it bc can control volume from the control/display while using digital out.
Most digital require you to use something like the Arc PSC or Helix Director when using digital


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

So it's not fixed, it's variable (like all the Android head units w/digital outs), so when it is controlling volume, it is degrading the digital signal (i.e., volume control over toslink/coax is sub-optimal vs using the PSC to control volume).


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Bikey said:


> So it's not fixed, it's variable (like all the Android head units w/digital outs), so when it is controlling volume, it is degrading the digital signal (i.e., volume control over toslink/coax is sub-optimal vs using the PSC to control volume).


I would assume so, but it's not always true that all variable digital volume controls reduce the bit depth when lowering the volume.

It depends on the specific DAC that is used and if the circuitry implements a secondary digital volume controller, or R2R ladder (unlikely for this product).

Unfortunately, it's hard to get this information, especially from consumer car audio manufacturers. You'd have to obtain the circuit board schematics/repair manual, or speak with one of the circuit design engineers.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> It
> 
> 
> I would assume so, but it's not always true that all variable digital volume controls reduce the bit depth when lowering the volume.
> ...


It will be reducing the bit depth at some point if it’s a digital signal, that’s how you control the volume of a purely digital signal unless you do it how brax do it from the brax dsp to the brax amps and the signal has a carrier of volume information so it’s implemented at the very last stage of the chain (this I presume is effectively your r2r ladder method?)


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

dumdum said:


> It will be reducing the bit depth at some point if it’s a digital signal, that’s how you control the volume of a purely digital signal unless you do it how brax do it from the brax dsp to the brax amps and the signal has a carrier of volume information so it’s implemented at the very last stage of the chain (this I presume is effectively your r2r ladder method?)


No, not all digital volume controls reduce the bit depth...these are controllers independent of the DAC chip. If you use the DAC chip's built-in volume controller (the easy & inexpensive option), yes, bit depth is reduced.

And a R2R ladder volume control is a completely separate analog circuit independent of the DAC chip that controls the volume completely in the analog domain.

It takes the full -0dB analog output signal from the DAC chip (at full bit depth), and each indent or step of the volume control routes that output so it is sent through a separate resistor in a consecutive "ladder" of resistors. Each volume step requires a resistor with different ohm value. There is a separate consecutive "ladder" or bank of resistors for the Left & Right channels.

Each step on the R2R ladder's volume control triggers a separate tiny relay to route the full-scale analog output from the DAC through a separate resistor in the "ladder" that has either an increased or reduced ohm value.

Think of each resistor as an independent "rung" in the ladder, and each rung in the ladder takes you higher or lower.

Therefore you need a separate relay AND resistor for each step up or down in volume. There will also need to be a small diode across each relay to prevent back EMF. And if you want more independent steps or levels between 0 output and full output, you'll have to add an additional relay & resistor for each of the desired steps or increments.

You obviously need lots of high-quality relays and resistors to do this, and it must be a separate bank or ladder for each channel, so this gets expensive.

You can typically determine when a DAC is using a R2R Ladder volume control because when adjusting each volume increment you can usually hear the subdued clicking of each internal relay.

Resistors always have "self noise", i.e. their own noise floor...even the highest quality resistors. So a properly implemented R2R Volume Ladder will have an independent resistor for Each Volume Step, instead of consecutively summing multiple resistors in the ladder together to achieve a higher ohm value and lower volume step.

That would also sum each resistor's self-noise. It is minuscule, but may become an issue in terms of SNR when LOTS of resistors are summed, which also results in consecutively lower volume levels with each added/summed resistor, so any background noise floor becomes even more apparent.

So essentially you end up in a similar predicament as using a digital volume control that lowers the bit depth...one degrades the SNR, and the other degrades resolution and DR. This is why a separate resistor for each volume step must be used in a proper R2R Ladder.

Again, lots of high-quality resistors & relays are required (and additional PCB space and a separate isolated power supply circuit), so this adds up to $$$, but AFAIK it is the best way to control the output level from the DAC.

Some designs may use a logic circuit IC to switch between the resistors in the ladder, which is the other DAC-independent volume control that I referenced.

Watch YouTuber _*GoldenSound*_'s fairly recent review of the _*Holo Audio "May" Level 2 DAC*_. He pops the cover and shows the internals, including the separate PCB for the Resistive Ladder at the front left of the unit IIRC. I believe the relays are underneath and out of view, but you can see the two rows of tiny resistors in the Left & Right "ladders".


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I seriously appreciate that explanation.
You done learned me sumthin.


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Has that ever been implemented in a piece of car audio equipment?


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## Audio 456 (Jun 2, 2014)

Thing I 'm afraid of is it's so big the scumbag thieves will definitely take notice of that big screen


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Audio 456 said:


> Thing I 'm afraid of is it's so big the scumbag thieves will definitely take notice of that big screen


It's also distracting as ***t and in bright daylight it's tough to see. Could be wrong though. 

I'm fine with "volume, play, pause, skip track." My processor in the trunk is gonna do all the work. A 6" Android screen is large enough for vol/play/pause/skip, and can be flush mounted to look like part of the car and not a huge "STEAL MY NICE STUFF!" sign.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Audio 456 said:


> Thing I 'm afraid of is it's so big the scumbag thieves will definitely take notice of that big screen


Are HUs still being stolen these days? It’s been years since I heard someone had a HU stolen from there car?

I suppose you need to have your audio installed in a car off the radar of common thieves - in our country anything VW is a target but a late model BMW nobody assumes there is a aftermarket system in it… as with cars with built in radios nobody takes notice… audio wise… hijacking is something different. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

cma is doing a stream now introducing the sone ES line. really good passive crossovers and shallow 6x8's.
plastic frames with a "cool industrial design".


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Elektra said:


> Are HUs still being stolen these days? It’s been years since I heard someone had a HU stolen from there car?
> 
> I suppose you need to have your audio installed in a car off the radar of common thieves - in our country anything VW is a target but a late model BMW nobody assumes there is a aftermarket system in it… as with cars with built in radios nobody takes notice… audio wise… hijacking is something different.
> 
> ...


Stereo theft is probably less common today because OEM stereos are useless in different cars, and are so integrated, that aftermarket is now a niche for geeks like us.

Slap a $1000+ Sonytabletradio in your Geo Storm and park it in South Austin or DC for the afternoon...Or heck, parts of Raleigh or Charlotte even. 

Gone in an hour.


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## phocas (Jul 29, 2019)

gumbeelee said:


> I just use my ipad mini that i had ole doug from soundman fabricate into my tacoma dash and it runs into my gs9…i absolutely love my ipad as my “source unit” even though the gs9 sits behind the ipad i never even touch the gs9
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you have a picture or a build log, especially what the ipad mini looks like in your dash? (looked in some of your past posts, maybe i missed it)


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Old'sCool said:


> Stereo theft is probably less common today because OEM stereos are useless in different cars, and are so integrated, that aftermarket is now a niche for geeks like us.
> 
> Slap a $1000+ Sonytabletradio in your Geo Storm and park it in South Austin or DC for the afternoon...Or heck, parts of Raleigh or Charlotte even.
> 
> Gone in an hour.


I drive a X3 so nobody thinks I have anything in the car…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Bikey said:


> Has that ever been implemented in a piece of car audio equipment?


Not to my knowledge. Takes valuable extra space and extra costs. It's usually found on higher-end home DACs.


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## Old'sCool (May 16, 2021)

Elektra said:


> I drive a BMW so peeps think I have valuables in the car…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fixed


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Bump 😎👍


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Old'sCool said:


> Fixed


Lol… over here if you drive a Golf or anything VW people assume you have a expensive aftermarket system - not so much for BMWs because the system is fixed and people assume some old dude drives it so there isn’t anything inside to steal..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aztec45 (Jul 23, 2007)

Elektra said:


> Lol… over here if you drive a Golf or anything VW people assume you have a expensive aftermarket system - not so much for BMWs because the system is fixed and people assume some old dude drives it so there isn’t anything inside to steal..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


lol how about a passat tdi 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## figgie (May 19, 2010)

So very intresting discussion.. I just saw that UTX-A09 and then decided to look at the manuals, and sure enough they have the UTX-M08 which looks to similiar to the UTX-A09 (snipped from the manual)







Of interest is how the digital out is to feed your favorite DSP (of course they are pushing the Alpine DSP), they both have optical and SPDIF coax out...








Then what really spun my head. This unit is based for consumption in China!








As what happened nearly 20+ years ago with the old Pioneer ODR of yesteryears and the trend continues with cool stuff like this.
The US is getting left behind...


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## Roknrolusa (Oct 21, 2021)

No need to cancel my Kenwood DMX 1057 XR order, got excited for a minute. No video playback and only three cam inputs. Sure the PEQ is for each channel but I'd need a DSP for either unit anyway.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

ckirocz28 said:


> The ESS chips are good, but are they as good as the DAC's in a Helix dsp or the MiniDSP 8x12? Good enough to justify the additional conversions?


Why does that matter? Any signal you put into the dsp has to go through the dsp dac unless it’s a brax and digital out…

Even if using an ESS dac it makes no odds if it’s better than the helix or mini dsp dac as you use both of going analogue in 😂

So you can have the best dac in the world in an analogue source and it still goes through the dac in the dsp, that’s why I always favour digital into a dsp, never analogue, less conversions is always better and one dac only 🥰


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

figgie said:


> So very intresting discussion.. I just saw that UTX-A09 and then decided to look at the manuals, and sure enough they have the UTX-M08 which looks to similiar to the UTX-A09 (snipped from the manual)
> View attachment 314793
> 
> Of interest is how the digital out is to feed your favorite DSP (of course they are pushing the Alpine DSP), they both have optical and SPDIF coax out...
> ...


I have UTX A09 in my car.imported from Australia.
And US seldom sees high end from any manufacturer bc the market for items is so small.


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

How do you like the A09? Were you the one who was going to get the rear view mirror based controller as well?


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## figgie (May 19, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> I have UTX A09 in my car.imported from Australia.
> And US seldom sees high end from any manufacturer bc the market for items is so small.


Yes and it actually has to do more with the laws here...

Like it took a proverbial act of god to get the Cadillac CT6 with that kick ass rear view mirror approved.

Personally i would love to get a hold of the M08.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Duplicate post.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

dumdum said:


> Why does that matter? Any signal you put into the dsp has to go through the dsp dac unless it’s a brax and digital out…
> 
> Even if using an ESS dac it makes no odds if it’s better than the helix or mini dsp dac as you use both of going analogue in
> 
> So you can have the best dac in the world in an analogue source and it still goes through the dac in the dsp, that’s why I always favour digital into a dsp, never analogue, less conversions is always better and one dac only


Because, if you have optical digital output from the head unit you're not gonna use the DAC in said head unit, therefore, if the DSP DAC is better you don't degrade the signal with the head unit DAC.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

ckirocz28 said:


> Because, if you have optical digital output from the head unit you're not gonna use the DAC in said head unit, therefore, if the DSP DAC is better you don't degrade the signal with the head unit DAC.


If the dsp dac is better than what as your talking digital sources? That’s my point… there is no time when I’d use a dac in a source ever… even if it’s the best dac in the world… if a digital output is available

So if the Source dac is better than the dsp dac? And you don’t degrade the signal with the hu dac? What then? The limiting factor will be the adc and dac in the dsp… so you’d still not use the dac in the hu

I’d still always choose digital in (my point) so you get two less conversions as chances are the adc is only as good as the dac in the dsps output

A good start doesn’t make the end result any better was more my point, kind of agreeing with your second statement without conditions on the source units dac vs the dsp dac if you can get digital output as it’s mute if there’s a digital output 👍🏼

My point was you asked a question, I said the question is irrelevant and asked why you thought which dac is better is relevant with a digital signal is also present


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Ok so I looked at the Kenwood XR 10.1” and because it’s a double din I can’t fit this unit in my car so I am limited to single din

So my options would be this Sony when it comes and Alpine Halo series and Pioneer has a 9” floating option…

So how is the Alpine? What other option is there I hear the pioneer is a bit slow? 

After reading the above I am not sure if I want to get the Sony…? 

Would anyone take the Halo over the Sony? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

Has anyone tested the sound quality of this unit compared to the RSX-GS9? I have a lot of DSD and 24/192 files I would like to play and I just realized this unit plays those formats. I'll be feeding the left/right analogue out into a Helix DSP.3S. 

SQ is most important to me, which is why I was planning on the GS9, but if this has as good analogue out as the GS9 with my high-res sources, then I'll go with this for the bonus of CarPlay and a little less $$.


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## TBerry (Apr 13, 2021)

Will this unit have bandpass ability to run an active 3 way set up ?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

MadeinBologna said:


> Has anyone tested the sound quality of this unit compared to the RSX-GS9? I have a lot of DSD and 24/192 files I would like to play and I just realized this unit plays those formats. I'll be feeding the left/right analogue out into a Helix DSP.3S.
> 
> SQ is most important to me, which is why I was planning on the GS9, but if this has as good analogue out as the GS9 with my high-res sources, then I'll go with this for the bonus of CarPlay and a little less $$.


AFAIK there haven't been any objective tests with measurements yet. But there have been several subjective listening impressions that are very favorable, but also none directly to the GS9 that I've seen.

I would hope and expect it to be better than the GS9 in terms of pure SQ, as that was Sony's primary claim during the announcement (because it's using the latest and greatest ESS DAC that's available).

And it will be exponentially better in terms of the GUI, feature set, and general usability compared to the GS9. You'd have to add an iPad to the GS9 to even begin matching the usability of this new all-in-one 10.1" head unit.


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

dumdum said:


> Why does that matter? Any signal you put into the dsp has to go through the dsp dac unless it’s a brax and digital out…
> 
> Even if using an ESS dac it makes no odds if it’s better than the helix or mini dsp dac as you use both of going analogue in 😂
> 
> So you can have the best dac in the world in an analogue source and it still goes through the dac in the dsp, that’s why I always favour digital into a dsp, never analogue, less conversions is always better and one dac only 🥰


I guess this one is debatable since I upgraded my ak4450 to a es9038pro I doubt they are using that chip but yes mine made a noticeable difference in sound of course idk 🤷‍♂️ about this at all. One thing I am really jealous of is the dsd compatibility as I have so many Terabytes of dsd files I really do hope the zapco hdsp software update integrates it soonish


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

dumdum said:


> If the dsp dac is better than what as your talking digital sources? That’s my point… there is no time when I’d use a dac in a source ever… even if it’s the best dac in the world… if a digital output is available
> 
> So if the Source dac is better than the dsp dac? And you don’t degrade the signal with the hu dac? What then? The limiting factor will be the adc and dac in the dsp… so you’d still not use the dac in the hu
> 
> ...


Your point is 100% I agree with which is why I used the usb off my zapco hdsp for my source I do admit I use bt some for YouTube to listen and pandora but probably 25% of the time mainly because I don’t have those songs yet


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

TBerry said:


> Will this unit have bandpass ability to run an active 3 way set up ?


It only lists: 

outputs: 6-channel preamp outputs (5-volt front, rear, sub)
It would need at least 7 output channels to accommodate a fully active 3-way front system with Subwoofer(s).

You could do it if you wanted to run the system without a subwoofer, preferably with 6x9" or 8"-10" midbass drivers.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

trunks9_us said:


> I guess this one is debatable since I upgraded my ak4450 to a es9038pro I doubt they are using that chip but yes mine made a noticeable difference in sound of course idk 🤷‍♂️ about this at all. One thing I am really jealous of is the dsd compatibility as I have so many Terabytes of dsd files I really do hope the zapco hdsp software update integrates it soonish.


I highly doubt that Zapco will ever implement native (non-DoP) DSD playback via the HDSP player. And technically, if you read the white papers and flowchart schematics for the ESS Sabre DACs, IIRC they internally convert the continuous 1-bit DSD bitstream to PCM, which breaks up the continuous bitstream into "chunks" of data (packets) and is ultimately DoP (DSD Over PCM).

Get a DAP that supports actual native DSD playback and use its Analog outputs into your HDSP if you want native DSD playback. But know that if you have the ESS DAC boards in the HDSP, then it will still be converted to DoP in the HDSP I think.


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> I highly doubt that Zapco will ever implement native (non-DoP) DSD playback via the HDSP player. And technically, if you read the white papers and flowchart schematics for the ESS Sabre DACs, IIRC they internally convert the continuous 1-bit DSD bitstream to PCM, which breaks up the continuous bitstream into "chunks" of data (packets) and is ultimately DoP (DSD Over PCM).
> 
> Get a DAP that supports actual native DSD playback and use its Analog outputs into your HDSP if you want native DSD playback. But know that if you have the ESS DAC boards in the HDSP, then it will still be converted to DoP in the HDSP I think.


I appreciate the response but i do t want any a/d conversions I just use aimp converter to convert to 192/32bit float point not my choice but it seems to save most of it file size is the same tho about 250mb-500mb per song. Not all of course mostly dsd64 is lower but dsd128 isn’t and I have very very few dsd256 because well no one out it out much on vinyl conversions from the high end home audio recordings. It’s not native dsd no but I’ve compared enough music between authentic and vinyl conversions and bout 90% is better then studio dsd128 releases. My comparisons are usually mostly classic rock Pink Floyd Eric Clapton CCR Eagles etc you get the point but 509mb of Michael Jackson thriller man it’s amazing I have high res metal it’s great man really sings. I’ve been hitting point of diminishing returns lately and it’s not surprising honestly I’m about to my limit with me adding these tru tech class a amps from the zapco ap amps change is probably gonna be the final big change because I already paid $1800 for stager silver solids rcas and the ess9038 pro dac I was using. $5 monoprice rcas and the difference is very big in details of course it better be at $205 per 1.5m run abd that guys been doing it since 1997 or earlier is still in business has crazy reviews so the next step up is super expensive and it’s not something I plan on changing for a long time.


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## ean611 (Feb 2, 2010)

Found the biggest issue with the 9500es

it does not have wired carplay.

For Apple Carplay, it can do 24-bit 48KHz or higher over Carplay, but only with USB connection. This deck lacks that.

Sadness, as that eliminates an easy way to get high res audio on it. If I was only going to use USB flash drive, would work, but that's dated.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

ean611 said:


> Found the biggest issue with the 9500es
> 
> it does not have wired carplay.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting your findings. That's definitely a bummer.

Besides that limitation, what are your first impressions of the SQ compared to what you had before? Or is this an entirely new system?


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## ean611 (Feb 2, 2010)

bbfoto said:


> Thanks for posting your findings. That's definitely a bummer.
> 
> Besides that limitation, what are your first impressions of the SQ compared to what you had before? Or is this an entirely new system?


I don't own it.

Carplay at 24 bit48k or higher is a need. Via USB, you can expect this or better. 

Because there is no way to use iPhone to play anything high resolution and uncompressed, I'm not buying the sony.

Will probably buy the Kenwood XR, which has far worse EQ/processing, but can support uncompressed audio from iPhone.


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

You're probably referencing my recent review on Crutchfield. However, you can play DSD, 24/192, etc via USB thumb drive. I converted my high res aiff to alac and moved my DSD files directly over, and it does very well. It even does a great job shuffling everything on the thumb drive if you like to listen that way. 

But, yeah, they should fix the wired CarPlay issue with a firmware update.


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## ean611 (Feb 2, 2010)

MadeinBologna said:


> You're probably referencing my recent review on Crutchfield. However, you can play DSD, 24/192, etc via USB thumb drive. I converted my high res aiff to alac and moved my DSD files directly over, and it does very well. It even does a great job shuffling everything on the thumb drive if you like to listen that way.
> 
> But, yeah, they should fix the wired CarPlay issue with a firmware update.


Been looking around. 

Honestly, USB is great if that works for your music collection. For me, I want iPhone lossless. Just unfortunate, as I cannot buy this as I'm not betting on them adding this.


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## citysoundman (Mar 10, 2021)

I was looking for a head unit with wired car play, HD radio and hi res audio playback. Kenwood DDX9907XR looks great but is impossible to find, so I went with Pioneer DMH-WT76NEX - got a refurbed unit off Ebay. Just installed it and so far so good. Has a very nice 9" floating display and supports FLAC/WAV (192kHz), DSD (5.6MHz). No disc player but I guess I can live without!
Maestro RR2 installed without a problem so that was a huge relief.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

ean611 said:


> Been looking around.
> 
> Honestly, USB is great if that works for your music collection. For me, I want iPhone lossless. Just unfortunate, as I cannot buy this as I'm not betting on them adding this.


I bet "iPhone lossless" isn't as lossless as lossless files on a usb drive.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

ckirocz28 said:


> I bet "iPhone lossless" isn't as lossless as lossless files on a usb drive.


Lossless either is or isn’t lossless, you don’t get lossy lossless files 🙈

if it’s digital from an iPhone with alac vs flac from a usb stick it will be lossless out the other end and you should be able to recreate the bitstream fully and complete, that is lossless


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

So what’s the verdict here is the Sony worth getting or not?


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

Elektra said:


> So what’s the verdict here is the Sony worth getting or not?


Definitely worth getting. I'm enjoying the heck out of mine and I'm still playing it through the remains of a 20-year old Bose system while I'm installing the rest of the system in parallel. 

I've since learned that ALAC is basically a "zipped" or compressed version of AIFF. If you compress it, then re-expand it using a proper conversion tool, the checksum is identical. Learned something new. I'll probably convert my whole library from AIFF to ALAC now that I see how much space it saves. The digital playback in my home system uses Audirvana, which loads up 2 GB of music into memory before the DAC ever sees it, and this is where any decompression would happen. I'm sure the Sony is pre-loading memory as well. Smart, but if you are going to drop support for something in your flagship, you should publish an article explaining this kind of thing instead of just dropping it on the market and hoping for the best. 

As for wired CarPlay vs wireless, it still sounds pretty good. Much, much better than the wired CarPlay in my old Kenwood 9702S. But I can't think of a viable reason why Sony didn't implement this. I mean, you gotta charge the phone right? Why not charge the phone and access it through USB? Got to be some kind of behind the scenes stupidity around Android and Apple. Sony DOES offer high-res USB connection to Android phones if my understanding is correct.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

MadeinBologna said:


> Definitely worth getting. I'm enjoying the heck out of mine and I'm still playing it through the remains of a 20-year old Bose system while I'm installing the rest of the system in parallel.
> 
> I've since learned that ALAC is basically a "zipped" or compressed version of AIFF. If you compress it, then re-expand it using a proper conversion tool, the checksum is identical. Learned something new. I'll probably convert my whole library from AIFF to ALAC now that I see how much space it saves. The digital playback in my home system uses Audirvana, which loads up 2 GB of music into memory before the DAC ever sees it, and this is where any decompression would happen. I'm sure the Sony is pre-loading memory as well. Smart, but if you are going to drop support for something in your flagship, you should publish an article explaining this kind of thing instead of just dropping it on the market and hoping for the best.
> 
> As for wired CarPlay vs wireless, it still sounds pretty good. Much, much better than the wired CarPlay in my old Kenwood 9702S. But I can't think of a viable reason why Sony didn't implement this. I mean, you gotta charge the phone right? Why not charge the phone and access it through USB? Got to be some kind of behind the scenes stupidity around Android and Apple. Sony DOES offer high-res USB connection to Android phones if my understanding is correct.


Thanks for the response been toying in my head if this thing is worth getting… my car is outdated it doesn’t have Bluetooth so I have some occasions that I need to follow the phones navigation and answer a call and charge it - in those occasions my tech in the car is a problem…

So can the Sony charge my phone and play music off it? 


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

Elektra said:


> So can the Sony charge my phone and play music off it?


Yes, the Sony actually connects to CarPlay via WiFi after handshaking over Bluetooth. I guess the BT connection is established, then it trades credentials and swaps over to WiFi. You can switch back and forth between WiFi and BT in the settings and it's pretty easy to do. The iPhone connected to USB does not affect any of this. It sees the USB connection as a source of power only. 

I just tested and verified this with the unit. 

What is interesting in my mind now, is what is the bandwidth over WiFi? LDAC is over Bluetooth and is 990Kbps. 

According to this site: https://www.highspeedinternet.com/resources/how-much-speed-do-i-need-for-pandora-and-spotify You need 7.5Mbps for high res. That is well, well within the range of available bandwidth for 802.11n and 802.11ac. Here's an interesting post.. Will lossless audio work via Airplay 2 an… - Apple Community That implies that CD quality (24/44.1) is a given.


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## ean611 (Feb 2, 2010)

I ended up getting a radio with Optical out.....The Sony looks awesome, just prefer wired CarPlay myself


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

MadeinBologna said:


> Yes, the Sony actually connects to CarPlay via WiFi after handshaking over Bluetooth. I guess the BT connection is established, then it trades credentials and swaps over to WiFi. You can switch back and forth between WiFi and BT in the settings and it's pretty easy to do. The iPhone connected to USB does not affect any of this. It sees the USB connection as a source of power only.
> 
> I just tested and verified this with the unit.
> 
> ...


So does the Sony connect digitally via the usb or is it all BT over CarPlay? 

Theoretically if I had a DSP with a usb audio input I could switch to digital on my DSP and listen to the usb input via the DSP and not via the Sony but use the CarPlay to control the tracks on the iPhone? 


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

It connects over WiFi 802.11. Nothing is transmitted over USB to the Sony for CarPlay.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

dumdum said:


> Lossless either is or isn’t lossless, you don’t get lossy lossless files
> 
> if it’s digital from an iPhone with alac vs flac from a usb stick it will be lossless out the other end and you should be able to recreate the bitstream fully and complete, that is lossless


That was sarcasm, poking fun at the preference for "iPhone lossless".


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

So with a 10” screen it can’t play videos - it can’t play music off the usb input - doesn’t have band pass crossovers 

Sounds like a waste to me… if the Kenwood was a single din I would be thinking more along that than the Sony

I think I’ll stick with my Gen 2 F1 and buy a Topping D10s for the usb in the Aux and tolerate no BT unless something comes up that can add on that gives me BT as well…

Seems that Sony took to heart the fact that GS9 has a tiny screen and over compensated with a 10.1” screen that seems to be a waste… 

I mean if I was going to buy a unit with a 10.1” screen and HD resolution I would want it to be able to play movies on it even if I never do…

Also what’s up with the USB input only for power? 

Seriously unless I am wrong about the limitations of this unit it seems Sony got this all wrong 

Sony should have made this a GS9 with a screen that plays all media and had a P99 capable DSP and coax or optical output and 8 way outputs - done everyone would buy it and probably pay an extra $500 for the additional features…


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

@Elektra
It plays lossless Hi-Res audio files via the USB input from USB storage media such as a portable USB thumb drive or HDD/SSD. The Wired USB connection provides up to 3 amps to power the USB storage devices or charge your smartphone via USB.

It just doesn't connect to Apple CarPlay via the the WIRED USB input. It only provides Apple CarPlay over Wireless Bluetooth (to facilitate the Playback & Volume Controls) and Wi-Fi to send the audio data.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bbfoto said:


> @Elektra
> It plays lossless Hi-Res audio files via the USB input from USB storage media such as a portable USB thumb drive or HDD/SSD. It provides up to 3 amps to power the USB storage devices or charge your smartphone.
> 
> It just doesn't connect to Apple CarPlay via the the WIRED USB input. It only provides Apple CarPlay over Wireless Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.


So if you “wire” your iPhone in so that it can charge then it can’t connect to the CarPlay? So can you play your music like you did on the GS9 by connecting it to the USB? 

But then you can’t access your maps for navigation if your phone is charging because it can’t connect to the CarPlay feature? 


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Elektra said:


> So if you “wire” your iPhone in so that it can charge then it can’t connect to the CarPlay? So can you play your music like you did on the GS9 by connecting it to the USB?
> 
> But then you can’t access your maps for navigation if your phone is charging because it can’t connect to the CarPlay feature?
> 
> ...


To be VERY clear, it doesn't do WIRED CarPlay.
If your iPhone can't do navigation while plugged in without CarPlay you should chuck it out the window and get an Android phone.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

ckirocz28 said:


> To be VERY clear, it doesn't do WIRED CarPlay.
> If your iPhone can't do navigation while plugged in without CarPlay you should chuck it out the window and get an Android phone.


It would be helpful if I could physically demo one of these units - there are a few things I need to confirm

If I get this unit I’ll use my Resolut T DSP with it which has the usb module in it. For SQ the Resolut will most probably provide a much better signal than the Sony considering it has the ESS Pro dac in it… 

What I want is to able to switch to digital on the Resolut and listen to the Resolut and control the music and functions on the Sony - that for me is first prize 


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Why do you need the Sony in your dream scenario? The Sony does not have digital out and the Resolut does not have analog in.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Bikey said:


> Why do you need the Sony in your dream scenario? The Sony does not have digital out and the Resolut does not have analog in.


Because of convenience (the Sony controls for carplay) and sound quality (resolut digital in) also, it’s a fact (from this forum or caj, I forget which) you can use wireless carplay with a topping d10s and do exactly what he describes and is thinking of doing


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Bikey said:


> Why do you need the Sony in your dream scenario? The Sony does not have digital out and the Resolut does not have analog in.


The Resolut I have has the analogue inputs so the Sony can run analogue into the DSP and through the DRC I can switch between analogue and digital to use the USB input on the DSP while still having the Sony do the BT phone and the Nav and track selection that controls my IPhone 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

dumdum said:


> Because of convenience (the Sony controls for carplay) and sound quality (resolut digital in) also, it’s a fact (from this forum or caj, I forget which) you can use wireless carplay with a topping d10s and do exactly what he describes and is thinking of doing


Exactly right! 


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## calamityartist (Dec 5, 2021)

I have one. I am running it in a very basic setup compared to most of you guys (4 speakers on a pocket amp, 1 basic sub with its own amp, no DSP or anything). I got it primarily because I like the Sony operating system and really wanted to upgrade to wireless CarPlay but needed to retain iDatalink Maestro to preserve some stock functions. I'm coming from one of their older units, the AX210. All the audiophile features are really just a bonus to me that I'm starting to explore. 

I will say that I am extremely pleased with its general use. The operating system is easy to use, simple, and aesthetically pleasing. I know it's stupid, but so many head units still look like their UI was developed in 1993. The large screen is great and easy to read. It's much improved in terms of being able to see in the sun. It's also much more responsive than most other head units I have used, they clearly put some better processing power into it. 

I can confirm it plays files via the USB port from things like thumb drives. It will NOT play music via iPhone wired. It will also not do wired CarPlay. I do agree this is a major oversight. It is very easy to switch between CarPlay and Bluetooth, but there is no "double-dipping", it is one or the other. I don't know what the requirements and protocols are for wired CarPlay, but I'm hopeful it can be added with a software update. 

If you want to know anything else about it, let me know and I will try to answer.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

calamityartist said:


> I have one. I am running it in a very basic setup compared to most of you guys (4 speakers on a pocket amp, 1 basic sub with its own amp, no DSP or anything). I got it primarily because I like the Sony operating system and really wanted to upgrade to wireless CarPlay but needed to retain iDatalink Maestro to preserve some stock functions. I'm coming from one of their older units, the AX210. All the audiophile features are really just a bonus to me that I'm starting to explore.
> 
> I will say that I am extremely pleased with its general use. The operating system is easy to use, simple, and aesthetically pleasing. I know it's stupid, but so many head units still look like their UI was developed in 1993. The large screen is great and easy to read. It's much improved in terms of being able to see in the sun. It's also much more responsive than most other head units I have used, they clearly put some better processing power into it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this 

So you can’t charge your iPhone and have CarPlay at the same time - you have to use a separate car charger if you want CarPlay and charging? 

Wow the designer must have left that part of the design to his drunk interim and forgot to check that… I don’t think that will be fixed with a software update to be honest 


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## calamityartist (Dec 5, 2021)

It will charge via USB while doing wireless CarPlay. It just won’t transmit data from the iPhone. The input is capable of sending data (as evidenced by playing music off USB) so I think there is a chance it could be remedied via software update.

Sorry for the confusion. I already have a fast charger in my car, so that’s what I use for power. I wasn’t thinking about using the head unit’s USB for power only, but you can.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

calamityartist said:


> It will charge via USB while doing wireless CarPlay. It just won’t transmit data from the iPhone. The input is capable of sending data (as evidenced by playing music off USB) so I think there is a chance it could be remedied via software io.


So long as it charges and I can use CarPlay at the same time I am happy….


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

I can also confirm this from actual use. It will charge the iPhone AND connect wirelessly to CarPlay. 

As a matter of fact, you can follow Waze and other CarPlay apps while listening to DSD/hi-res from a USB thumb drive, though you obviously lose the ability to charge the phone. 

And also to confirm, there is no digital out. But the analog audio that it does put out is very clean and clear. Certainly the best I've heard from a head unit. If you are forced to do A/D then D/A, at least you get to start with a very clean signal. 



Elektra said:


> So long as it charges and I can use CarPlay at the same time I am happy….
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

MadeinBologna said:


> I can also confirm this from actual use. It will charge the iPhone AND connect wirelessly to CarPlay.
> 
> As a matter of fact, you can follow Waze and other CarPlay apps while listening to DSD/hi-res from a USB thumb drive, though you obviously lose the ability to charge the phone.
> 
> And also to confirm, there is no digital out. But the analog audio that it does put out is very clean and clear. Certainly the best I've heard from a head unit. If you are forced to do A/D then D/A, at least you get to start with a very clean signal.


Well I ordered one - it will come beginning of January. I hope it will work the way I hope it will…


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## Turb0Yoda (Jan 4, 2019)

Is the general consensus that this is worth the upgrade over the DMX1057XR or are they pretty much on par in terms of SQ? Not sure how the ESS chip in this stands up to whatever's in the Kenwood.


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## Jose131 (May 16, 2017)

I upgraded from the kenwood ddx 9904s to the sony 9500 ES running active off my amplifier(Xd1000/5v2) and I immediately noticed a huge increase in SQ. The stage feels wider now and sounds warmer, crisper at high volumes! Definitely feels like new speakers. I also like the ui for the sony. Its extremely fast and as soon as I get in the car. Carplay activates. I can’t speak for the newer kenwood decks but, the 9904s was very good. 


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I just left the shop locally that has these today. In store they carry alpine, Sony, stinger. They like the stinger because of the optical out but in a nutshell said this indeed has been an sq upgrade to everything they have sold. I didn’t know about the car play issue and only being able to do wireless but his words, if you want a big screen and sq, no question this is the unit.


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm enjoying the hell out of mine despite the fact that I had to convert thousands of audio files from AIFF to ALAC. On the bright side of that hellish endeavor, I now have twice the hard-drive space with no loss of audio quality.


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## calamityartist (Dec 5, 2021)

I’m also extremely happy with mine. Wouldn’t hesitate to buy again.


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## Turb0Yoda (Jan 4, 2019)

y'all suck I'm gonna blame y'all for the impeding bill while I sell off my DMX1057XR smh


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Guys can you set the BT telephone answering and ringing volume to be independent of the main volume so if your cranking it and a call comes through your not scrambling to reduce the volume? 


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

Elektra said:


> Guys can you set the BT telephone answering and ringing volume to be independent of the main volume so if your cranking it and a call comes through your not scrambling to reduce the volume?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, in the system settings.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Turb0Yoda said:


> y'all suck I'm gonna blame y'all for the impeding bill while I sell off my DMX1057XR smh


Did you make the switch and if so what are your thoughts? @Turb0Yoda


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

MadeinBologna said:


> Yes, in the system settings.


Great to know 


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## Turb0Yoda (Jan 4, 2019)

Clvol1255 said:


> Did you make the switch and if so what are your thoughts? @Turb0Yoda


Nope- work became absolute hell and I've been back to 60-80 hour work weeks. Was working on tearing out the failed knukonceptz and replacing with resonix, then MLV and thinsulate before I tune everything properly so I have a baseline if/when I swap. I just don't have the bandwidth to think about buying and installing more actual gear right now when I still need to fix the core items in my car


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Guys I installed mine today - it’s freaking amazing - just using the OEM BMW speakers till I install the amps - man this thing has absolutely transformed the car… 

Probably the best sounding HU I have heard using the built in amp

However HTF do you secure the body of the HU to the din bezel? I can see any extra attachments that need to be screwed to the HU to secure it?

Also seriously this price tag and no manual? Come on guys that’s just wrong even a $100 Sony comes with a manual…


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## MadeinBologna (Oct 6, 2021)

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/mobile-cd-players-digital-media-players-xav-series/xav-9500es/manuals



Do you mean the floating screen to the single-din connection? There are 4 tiny screws that secure it after you slide the screen onto the front.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Can’t understand why this unit didn’t come with TA?


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## Mike-G (Dec 25, 2008)

According to the website, it does have TA



Elektra said:


> Can’t understand why this unit didn’t come with TA?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Mike-G said:


> According to the website, it does have TA


Where? I don’t see it?


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Ok I found it… helps to have the manual… 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

How are guys finding the tuner strength in these unit? 


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