# My experience with horns



## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd never even heard of horn speakers in a car before 6 weeks ago. I have a fully active HAT L8 door-L4 kick-L1 pillar setup in my '92 Cadillac with a 15" AE IB sub firing through the arm rest in the back, all tuning being done with a Pioneer P800prs deck and a bevy of 600Wrms RF 25th anniversary amps.

I had a killer for the day setup back in the 90's but didn't get back into things until 2008 for my Cad, and I have never been to competition and have never even heard a "reference" car before. But I know what I like and I have spent a lot of time tuning my Cad. I mostly listen to bebop era jazz and the Grateful Dead, with some classical.

So I get a new to me Dodge truck, and although the cad is my daily driver the truck is where I do most of my road tripping and my old rig wasn't worth building up, so I was excited to do a new system. I continued with HAT because that's what I knew and I hadn't seen anything online that made me think they had quit producing a nice product. L3SE's in the dash to start with running tweeterless (i found I can't hear above 10k anyway). I spent 3 weeks putting L8's in the kicks but it was a disaster, even with a 2" venting hole there wasn't enough airspace and the bass was muffled and worse the resonance in the upper pillar where I couldn't dampen was terrible. So I spent another 2 weeks prepping the doors and moving them there. I put a 12" type R Alpine sub in a sealed console box. 

It sounded okay once I adjusted some things - I mean, it sounded pretty good - definitely not better than my Cad but okay. 

But during all this I had stumbled on the "HLCD" forum. My first thought was that these horn things were just another audio tweaker subculture where weirdos  like Patrick Bateman conducted strange and incomprehensible experiments. But then I noticed a lot of people whose opinion I respected on this site had very favorable opinons on these things. I thought I liked a warm sound and I favor tonality over imaging, and didn't think I would like anything that was "forward" or "loud in the midrange" and I don't listen at what many would consider loud volumes. But one word kept coming back to me - "horns sound DYNAMIC". 

Anyway I was intrigued enough to inquire further, and found it kind of strange that you could only buy them from some obscure guy on the forum named Eric Stevens. The price was low enough though, after spending $500 on two little 3" speakers, so I ordered up a set after Eric spent a generous 45 minutes with me on the phone answerinq questions. I had been buying a lot of other used gear on the forum and it felt like I was just getting some more stuff so I was actually a little surprised when they showed up very professionally packaged (and were shipped the very next day after I sent the money). 

So I tune up my system with an 800Hz high pass and using my new p99rs deck and an extra amp (same style Pioneer D800prs amp on both sets), I can mute and switch instantly A/B between the two setups. Again, my standard setup was sounding pretty good to me, enough that I was spending some extended listening sessions in the driveway.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally, I turned on those horns, spent 5 minutes tweaking gains, and fell in love. 

AUDIO CLICHE ALERT
I really felt like someone had washed my soundstage with windex-I don't want to say I heard things I'd never heard before, but they were so damn clear and so clearly placed on a much larger soundstage. Probably the greatest praise I can give is that the one weakness of my Cad is I've never felt like it really reproduced classical music all that well. This was the first time I really felt like the system was doing a symphony justice. 
It truly fulfilled that promise I'd heard of "dynamics". I'm actually a bit concerned that my Cad will now sound a bit lifeless (although the bass is much better in the very low end). 

And the improvement from the original setup in the truck was even more pronounced. Now, I think the dash location is far from the best, but I've also seen more than one guy on here win competitions or praise from those who know using these locations.

The whole point of this long winded post is for those who are new to horns or might be wondering whether to give them a try is to go for it !

System is P99RS -> Pioneer p800prs 2*[email protected] into Eric's large body horns from 800Hz up, old Rockford Fosgate 4004 amp bridged giving 2*270rms into the L8's from 120 up, and RF amp putting 1000wrms into the sub. Tons of deadening all over the truck, etc. 

I'd also point out that my L8's seem to keep up fine to me, pro audio drivers are not required as much as everyone makes out, but who knows I plan to try them at some point as well. Maybe I'll have a "dynamic" wake up call there too. I don't run super loud though, but definitely loud enough. Haven't RTA'ed either setup, but only took out about 0.5-1.5 dB between 2k-4k for the horns so far, and it imaged better with the driver horn phase flipped. Still a lot of tuning to do and need to get some deeper subs bass going somehow,but I'm extremely happy with horns. Not to mention, no one ever rides in my Cad but I often am driving groups of people in my truck and the clarity and dynamics of these things will be perfect for showing off just a bit not to mention cutting through the higher road noise of this type of vehicle.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Thanks for the praise. Glad I could be of assistance and help you come closer to sonic nirvana.

BTW, You wont ever get deep bass out of a subwoofer mounted in the center of the listening space. needs to be in the corner farthest from you if possible. I would rather have a couple oif 8" or a single 10 in the right location than a 15 in the wrong location.

Eric Stevens

PS We have been flying low but that is about to change.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Welcome to the dark side :evil: 

Wait till you try a good high-efficiency mid to pair with your horns... If you want to play with a driver that doesn't cost a fortune, try a pair of these - works great IB in a door

Kelvin


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> We have been flying low but that is about to change.


Now that sounds interesting. Is there something you care to share with the rest of us?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I think its almost time for an Oncore


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yes it is.

And besides, Eric just isn't some guy on the forums...he co-founded Image Dynamics.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

i've found that if people can fit the horns under their dash, they'll fall in love with them.


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## left channel (Jul 9, 2008)

I really miss my horns. Best system I've had was Mini Body's with Neo motors in my Focus. Did very well in IASCA Pro Street with that car. I just picked up a 2011 Cruze and I may have to try and squeeze some Horns in there.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah he may have been the founder of Image Dynamics but as a casual mobile audio enthusiast I wouldn't know that. After my first reading of the HLCD forum I was intrigued and thought "How much are these things ?". It took me about 10 minutes of searching before I could even figure out where you could buy them (and then I still had to send PM to get prices - which are quite reasonable btw) 

I definitely plan on trying a pro audio 8" at some point, especially since I am crossing kind of high at 125Hz anyway. In the back of my head though I always kind of think, well, aren't consumer especially a higher end driver like Legatia (granted Scott is a probably a bit proud of his product) optimized for tonality and sound ? Without auditioning a ton of drivers its hard to know, which is why guys like me are forced to buy on reputation even though there is a significant cost upgrade from Parts Express or Dayton or something. I guess to me a pro driver is something that is more optimized to play loud in a big cabinet on a stage than to create perfect tonality at lower levels. But obviously the opinion here is that's not necessarily true. I will get around to putting one in and maybe report back what I think. When we say the speakers (and install) are the most important parts of the sound then it seems like speakers should matter a great deal, but sometimes it seems the way people throw around part numbers on here that the difference between a certain level of quality is maybe not as much as I was led to believe in the past.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> I think its almost time for an Oncore


it's past due imo


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

preston said:


> Yeah he may have been the founder of Image Dynamics but as a casual mobile audio enthusiast I wouldn't know that. After my first reading of the HLCD forum I was intrigued and thought "How much are these things ?". It took me about 10 minutes of searching before I could even figure out where you could buy them (and then I still had to send PM to get prices - which are quite reasonable btw)
> 
> I definitely plan on trying a pro audio 8" at some point, especially since I am crossing kind of high at 125Hz anyway. In the back of my head though I always kind of think, well, aren't consumer especially a higher end driver like Legatia (granted Scott is a probably a bit proud of his product) optimized for tonality and sound ? Without auditioning a ton of drivers its hard to know, which is why guys like me are forced to buy on reputation even though there is a significant cost upgrade from Parts Express or Dayton or something. I guess to me a pro driver is something that is more optimized to play loud in a big cabinet on a stage than to create perfect tonality at lower levels. But obviously the opinion here is that's not necessarily true. I will get around to putting one in and maybe report back what I think. When we say the speakers (and install) are the most important parts of the sound then it seems like speakers should matter a great deal, but sometimes it seems the way people throw around part numbers on here that the difference between a certain level of quality is maybe not as much as I was led to believe in the past.


glad to hear you took the time and effort to experiments... it's what diy is all about. welcome to the dark side 

as for your post quoted above, there are some sound logical reasons to go with pro audio drivers. as you said, they are designed to get loud, but you can't say they aren't also designed to sound great... why else would bands use brands like jbl? The speakers utilized in pro audio are designed to do the same thing as speakers utilized in car audio - to reproduce sound with the least amount of coloration (unless a manufacture intends to do just that). 

Just because the Proaudio speakers CAN get loud doesn't mean they need to in order to sound good. 

So, here is my reasoning for using pro drivers instead of high priced car audio drivers:
1. efficiency - horns are super efficient. upwards of 115db/1watt. Horns will easily outpace less efficient drivers, which threatens what we all hold so dear - our precious essque. Drivers with close efficiency with the horns give you an easier tuning ability, and it also lets you use the horns the way they were intended. You can tune down the horns to mate with lower efficiency drivers, but that, imo, is negating the reason for using horns in the first place - dynamics and realism. 
2. impact and realism - due to high efficiency of pro audio drivers, you normally see the need to increase cone size in order to play as low as smaller conventional drivers. it's the tradeoff for more efficiency. but it has one distinct advantage - the larger the driver, the greater the impact. picture a 6.5" driver playing 80hz... sounds great, right? no picture a 8" or a 10" driver playing 80hz... it'll play that frequency easier, and with more realism and impact than the smaller conventional driver. 

IMO, conventional speakers can do everything right.... tonality, imaging, staging, etc... but for me, even if everything is technically right, it still sounds boring and dry. the one thing that transforms a stereo into sheer listening pleasure is dynamics, realism, and impact. this is what you get when you use pro audio drivers correctly with horns.


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## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> IMO, conventional speakers can do everything right.... tonality, imaging, staging, etc... but for me, even if everything is technically right, it still sounds boring and dry. the one thing that transforms a stereo into sheer listening pleasure is dynamics, realism, and impact. this is what you get when you use pro audio drivers correctly with horns.


^^^^This. F*% yeah. So well said my friend. Got excited just reading it, since I am about to build such a system. Give me the REAL deal, basically.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

mattyjman said:


> IMO, conventional speakers can do everything right.... tonality, imaging, staging, etc... but for me, even if everything is technically right, it still sounds boring and dry. the one thing that transforms a stereo into sheer listening pleasure is dynamics, realism, and impact. this is what you get when you use pro audio drivers correctly with horns.


Agreed!


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Horns have only one real weakness (the good horns that is), and that is they tend to roll off a little too soon on the high end for classical music.

This can be mitigated with a tweeter crossed very high. A lot of the horn home speakers I'm seeing now are doing that.

When it comes down to it, that efficiency in the midrange from 1000 hz up is what you are paying for. I can't envision any dream home/car system that does not have horns. Once you experience the dynamics, you cannot go back.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

FG79 said:


> Horns have only one real weakness (the good horns that is), and that is they tend to roll off a little too soon on the high end for classical music.
> 
> This can be mitigated with a tweeter crossed very high. A lot of the horn home speakers I'm seeing now are doing that.
> 
> When it comes down to it, that efficiency in the midrange from 1000 hz up is what you are paying for. I can't envision any dream home/car system that does not have horns. Once you experience the dynamics, you cannot go back.


Yep, when I move in my new place... I'm gonna buy a pair of Summas to try - reading reviews on them has me conquered 
Will be buying the Biamplification option with my Milbert on the horns and a nice and powerful monoblock for the woofer 

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Some of that is the driver used and some is the horn profile.

Drivers with a stronger motor tend to have better treble.

Geddes would say that adding the super tweeter on top would ruin the polar response of the speaker and that past 10k isn't of much concern for him.

I would like to have one of his systems and a synergy horn set up as well. Lot of good things going on in the unity / synergy horns.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I got into an "argument" of sorts with a good friend and respected judge at a show one year. it went something like this

him- your car sounds really freaking good, so what all you running now?
me-horns and 8s
him-which horns?
Me-the Ultras
him-so then what tweeters are you running
me-none, i dont use tweeter
him-there is no freaking way you are running just horns bc I dont hear that roll off at the top end and there is extension to 20k--wheres the horns bc i dont even see him
me--get out of the car, bend down and look way under the dash
him--holy ****, how the hell did you do that?
me-
him--so you mean to tell me that youre running the Ultra mini horns with just 8s and no tweeters and its not rolling off on the top end?
me-


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

nice


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

FG79 said:


> *Horns have only one real weakness (the good horns that is), and that is they tend to roll off a little too soon on the high end for classical music.*
> 
> This can be mitigated with a tweeter crossed very high. A lot of the horn home speakers I'm seeing now are doing that.
> 
> When it comes down to it, that efficiency in the midrange from 1000 hz up is what you are paying for. I can't envision any dream home/car system that does not have horns. Once you experience the dynamics, you cannot go back.


depends on the driver too. The ES ultras dont really start rolling off till about 16khz, should be high enough for 95% of whats out there. Hell I have the CD1e that roll off at 12khz and I still think they sound amazing.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> I got into an "argument" of sorts with a good friend and respected judge at a show one year. it went something like this
> 
> him- your car sounds really freaking good, so what all you running now?
> me-horns and 8s
> ...


Your winning BMW horn system is a 2-way front stage? 

Kelvin


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Your winning BMW horn system is a 2-way front stage?
> 
> Kelvin


the year it won MECA finals it was just Ulta mini horns and Thiel 8s with a custom SB Acoustics 10" shallow sub in the front floorboard. thats it.
my other BMW is just Ulta mini horns, JL C5 65 and a JL 10W1 in front floorboard
simplicity works best IMO


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> the year it won MECA finals it was just Ulta mini horns and Thiel 8s with a custom SB Acoustics 10" shallow sub in the front floorboard. thats it.
> my other BMW is just Ulta mini horns, JL C5 65 and a JL 10W1 in front floorboard
> simplicity works best IMO


Great to know... Thanks  

Kelvin


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> the year it won MECA finals it was just Ulta mini horns and Thiel 8s with a custom SB Acoustics 10" shallow sub in the front floorboard. thats it.
> my other BMW is just Ulta mini horns, JL C5 65 and a JL 10W1 in front floorboard
> simplicity works best IMO


I hope i get to listen to it


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

edouble101 said:


> I hope i get to listen to it


where are you located? Only my Ti plays music, and is actually drivable. my other car, the one that actually won 2 finals, has been in a state of revised Installs for 2years:blush:


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Well you guys were right once again. I bought some Beyma 8G40 8" pro drivers that were recommended to me by Eric. I liked these because they came in 4 ohm so I didn't have to start changing amplifiers. 

Again holy cow, big difference in dynamics and clarity. In the photos you really can't see the difference between speakers, I was actually pretty blase about making the change - the L8's were sounding good and had plenty of volume. When the speakers came I was like - "oh......". The Freaking magnets are 3 times the size ! When I put one in I was immediately enthusiastic about the change. 

I thought I would have to build adapters but I was just able to angle the screws and use the old baffle. I was quite satisfied with myself, until I rolled down the window - arrghh ! It was going to be so simple and easy. Ended up having to space them out another 1.374" , which meant I could no longer fit them behind the trim panel and had to cut open the trim panels, then graft on a giant 10" grille. it actually looks okay, in fact it looks like I have a 10" speaker in the door, but its no longer OEM stealth which bums me out. I will paint it to match or cover it with grille cloth to tone it down but at least it looks nice. I was pretty worried when it was just a hacked up door panel and an ugly speaker baffle coming out. 

But after playing them, there was no way I was going back !


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

If anyone with a Dodge Ram is reading this, my total spacing from the OEM "raised" metal section of the original speaker mount is 1.875". You can fit a 3.75" depth speaker in the door with just a .75" baffle, unless it has a giant magnet.


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## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Daaat a boy! dynamics are a bit like..._crack_... 

:laugh:....anybody...anybody


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

preston said:


> Well you guys were right once again. I bought some Beyma 8G40 8" pro drivers that were recommended to me by Eric. I liked these because they came in 4 ohm so I didn't have to start changing amplifiers.
> 
> Again holy cow, big difference in dynamics and clarity. In the photos you really can't see the difference between speakers, I was actually pretty blase about making the change - the L8's were sounding good and had plenty of volume. When the speakers came I was like - "oh......". The Freaking magnets are 3 times the size ! When I put one in I was immediately enthusiastic about the change.
> 
> ...


If only everybody could listen to us like you did... 

People saying that their speakers keep up fine with horns is great but when you have a HE midrange, you take it to the next level with only a speaker change :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

well done, sir! welcome to the big boy's club now


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)




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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was told by a home audio guy who I trust that those Beymas would make me forget about how much I love the JBL 2118s.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> I was told by a home audio guy who I trust that those Beymas would make me forget about how much I love the JBL 2118s.


That's a strong statement.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It came from John Hasquin...guy is smart as a whip and knows good sound.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

But let's be real, a lot of what Beyma was known for was their JBL "style" replacement speakers back in the day. I've never heard them so I can't comment...specs look good though.


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