# Super caps, ultra caps and people on DIYMA



## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

When I search supercap banks or ultra caps etc... what’s up with the majority of people here not liking or bad talking about super capacitor banks? And the actual lack of any real talk is any about them?
It’s always the same old ****.... people ask what’s needed in their electrical and it’s always first the BIG THREE. 🙄

bigger alternator which is obvious

then add several heavy batteries. 

but never add a super capacitor bank or two to the system.
adding more and more batteries has diminishing returns.
1 big battery up front and 1 i. the rear should be fine 

UNLESS you set with your car off and listen to music. But who does that?

after having two good batteries you would benefit much more by adding say a 17v 566 farad super cap bank to stabilize your voltage. Adding a third heavy ass battery would barely make any difference.

So why the hate for supercaps/ ultra caps on this forum compared to other forums? Is this a classic example of monkey see monkey do? Simply repeating what you have read before?


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

Selkec said:


> When I search supercap banks or ultra caps etc... what’s up with the majority of people here not liking or bad talking about super capacitor banks? And the actual lack of any real talk is any about them?
> It’s always the same old ****.... people ask what’s needed in their electrical and it’s always first the BIG THREE. 🙄
> 
> bigger alternator which is obvious
> ...


I can't answer the question. I have always used simple systems that runs on stock alternators and batteries. But I notice on a lot of the videos I watch on YouTube, the cars are not using any capacitors (that I see, nor do they make mention of any). I see upgraded alternators and secondary batteries and sometimes multiple batteries, but no capacitors.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

There is a lot of people that use super capacitor banks. I’m not talking about the cheap little 1 farad caps that people used 20 years ago that don’t do anything.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Where did you see the hate? 

I have not.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

most of the time when I see people speak negatively on caps it is the old 1 fared ones that you could get a the flea market. I think in many cases people were trying to get a cap to fix a larger issue and caps were a bandaid. This is where get an alt, do big 3, better battery comes from. I see super caps often, but Its usually on the SPL side. I just dont see them much on any sq system so I have never looked into them


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Honestly, I don't think its just on this forum. I would think caps would be used and favorably talked about, a lot more often than they are. Right now, I'm going for the extra alternator, and an extra battery or two. But I would totally consider a capacitor bank somewhere down the road.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

I'm guessing less need with class d getting more popular...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I see them mentioned more
Positively on a couple other forums. But you may have a point that maybe it’s more spl based. But it shouldn’t be that way. We all want stable voltage right? It’s silly to keep adding batteries when if you all ready have the HO alt, and two big batteries you should add a supercap bank for better bang for the buck. Batteries can’t charge up quickly so why not take advantage of a HO alt and add supercap bank so the whole electric system is in a way “more efficient” 
What I mean by that is you have this bad ass alternator that wants to send out its power and some slow ass battery saying “Whoa there big fella, I drink my juice slow”. And the supercap bank is says “hey Ill chug as much juice as you wanna give me” 
So in a way the super caps are using much of the wasted potential of a HO alternator. 
I’ve watched many many videos of supercaps and of batteries and supercap banks stabilize the voltage much more and keep the voltage higher. Say you play a 45hz tone for a 30 seconds and you go from 14.4 down to 11.7. Once you add a cap bank you might only drop to 12.5 for example. The voltage is always higher after the tests in any video you can find. 
they can help even more in that if your alternator charges at 15v then they will charge to 15v


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Vx220 said:


> I'm guessing less need with class d getting more popular...


Even so, big 5000 watt class D is going to pull 300+ amps easily if I am not mistaken. 
So we’re still pulling tons of amps. We went from old school type class AB being inefficient and most the time less power to now class D 10000 watts in a daily driver. 20 years ago that would been unheard of. So we are still taxing our electrical system possibly more than ever since high power class D amps aren’t expensive and easy to get


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Selkec said:


> Even so, big 5000 watt class D is going to pull 300+ amps easily if I am not mistaken.
> So we’re still pulling tons of amps. We went from old school type class AB being inefficient and most the time less power to now class D 10000 watts in a daily driver. 20 years ago that would been unheard of. So we are still taxing our electrical system possibly more than ever since high power class D amps aren’t expensive and easy to get


Totally agreed. I wouldn't even consider myself to be a hard core SPL guy. I'm kind of an SQL guy..... but hope to running a 6Kwt daily driver system within a year. And like I say, I'm totally open to a capacitor bank..... although that's probably about #4 or 5 down my list of upgrades.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

The reason why is because battery technology has advanced. You can get low ESR batteries with far more capacity and eliminate the need for capacitor banks.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

.....


captainobvious said:


> The reason why is because battery technology has advanced. You can get low ESR batteries with far more capacity and eliminate the need for capacitor banks.



Thank you.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Old school guys will remember the big caps. Electrical engineers know the usage of a capacitor in circuits.
Here's Heinz Fischer talking about electrical stability and his famous big cap introduced back then (Brax). 




(These are the good/real caps, not the toy/fake ones giving it a bad name.)


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> I see them mentioned more
> Positively on a couple other forums. But you may have a point that maybe it’s more spl based. But it shouldn’t be that way. We all want stable voltage right? .. ...


Cars have been using the same general gear for a century.
The large unregulated amps are different from regulated amps, so that is the crowd that would like super caps.



Selkec said:


> ... Batteries can’t charge up quickly so why not take advantage of a HO alt and add supercap bank so the whole electric system is in a way “more efficient”
> What I mean by that is you have this bad ass alternator that wants to send out its power and some slow ass battery saying “Whoa there big fella, I drink my juice slow”. And the supercap bank is says “hey Ill chug as much juice as you wanna give me”
> So in a way the super caps are using much of the wasted potential of a HO alternator.
> I’ve watched many many videos of supercaps and of batteries and supercap banks stabilize the voltage much more and keep the voltage higher. Say you play a 45hz tone for a 30 seconds and you go from 14.4 down to 11.7. Once you add a cap bank you might only drop to 12.5 for example. The voltage is always higher after the tests in any video you can find.
> ...


The alternator will send out the current if it is required. Like straight to amp if the amp is on a "juice drinking" binge.

If the amp is wanting to pull 400 amperes, and alternator does 125, then there's will be a problem.

i do not play tones for 30 seconds. Is that a common thing to do?
And are the voltage numbers real or made up?

It is possible to work out the energy that a specific capacitor can store and how long it takes to drain to a certain voltage?

The idea of someone sitting down the street playing 30 second tones does not fill me with much love.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

I don't know what it is about German. But when I hear it? I feel like Putting Subtitles on the bottom of my own.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Cars have been using the same general gear for a century.
> The large unregulated amps are different from regulated amps, so that is the crowd that would like super caps.
> 
> 
> ...


My numbers were made up for example but very close to real world numbers.


captainobvious said:


> The reason why is because battery technology has advanced. You can get low ESR batteries with far more capacity and eliminate the need for capacitor banks.


There is no battery ESR even close to a super capacitors esr. 
What alternator and How many batteries do you run?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

diy.phil said:


> Old school guys will remember the big caps. Electrical engineers know the usage of a capacitor in circuits.
> Here's Heinz Fischer talking about electrical stability and his famous big cap introduced back then (Brax).
> 
> 
> ...


Supercapacitors are not toy/fake


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Holmz said:


> The large unregulated amps are different from regulated amps, so that is the crowd that would like super caps.


I never even though about that! Even still with these new amps it is very easy to draw tons of current if cranking out a lot of bass. I think I get it now... no one on this forum listens at very loud levels as I do. Guess I am more of a “SQL” person. I want the sound quality but want it along with the bass hitting in the 130-140s and to be clean and keeping up with the bass. 
I’m not into elevator music 😉


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

diy.phil said:


> Old school guys will remember the big caps. Electrical engineers know the usage of a capacitor in circuits.
> Here's Heinz Fischer talking about electrical stability and his famous big cap introduced back then (Brax).
> 
> 
> ...


what was his famous “big cap” I think I read he stated his was not even 1 farad in that video. 😂. That is less than those toy caps mentioned in this thread. 

maybe you are talking about the power station instead? I have no idea what that is. But yes that is big

I found this on their site. This is a dang toy also. Lmmfao. 1 measly farad. I had no idea they were also into making toys


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

captainobvious said:


> The reason why is because battery technology has advanced. You can get low ESR batteries with far more capacity and eliminate the need for capacitor banks.


Any you recommend? What about using one as the main battery only? My little Honda battery is fine with the engine off but wears down fast when off


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Selkec said:


> I never even though about that! Even still with these new amps it is very easy to draw tons of current if cranking out a lot of bass. I think I get it now... no one on this forum listens at very loud levels as I do. Guess I am more of a “SQL” person. I want the sound quality but want it along with the bass hitting in the 130-140s and to be clean and keeping up with the bass.
> I’m not into elevator music 😉


Wrong ! I TOTALLY like LOUD music, and I'm a bass head 🙂 I'm also an SQL kind of guy like yourself. Like I have said, within a year, I hope to be running a 6 Kwt daily driver setup, and I really don't want my voltage to dip below 14.4 on a hot day, at idle 🙂 ....
And I mean, not even for a micro second on a super hard hit from the kick drums ! (where the capacitor bank will probably come in)
To that end, I'm just going to start working on the whole electrical upgrade list, and take it as far as I have to. I'm hoping about $2K more will do it 🙂 .... well, that will include a different 18" sub, and another strappable amp.

PS, it kills me that every time I get to a street light, I have to put it in park, and rev the truck up to 2K rpm's jist to keep from dropping way down towards 13 volts. Hits so much better at 14.5 😉


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

I don't feel like throwing up battery graphs. But the end of the day? The Price per performance is not there for the average daily user. This has to do with the discharge curve. C rate and many other factors. (Derp) 


I hate making these serious posts, but why not. 

A Aka, SuperCap or Maxwell is simply a traditional Electrical Double-Layer Capacitor or ELDC for short. 

The storage in a capacitor is rated in Joules* . 








Amps like the Carver actually touted the energy storage capacity
If you understand how the Carver Feild Effect Amps work, you understand why this was a departure from previous designs. Essentially, it was Bob's take on what the ultimate no compromise Audio Amplifier could be. 


Now Conway (Another book to help you go to sleep) did estenesive testing and wrote not only a book but a full paper on this. And that is where the problems of the Typical ELDC starts to show up with use in a direct current system. 

Say you spent the money (Bangs shoe on floor 3 times) and you had a Typical 800 Ampere transient or peak inrush current as your load. If you look at how the ELDC platform performs, $500-1000 bucks later, and the only part of your car that loves you is your starter. Notice the amount of Voltage drop from 15V to 12.5. (_And all the other things they did too_) 







Did this large over 500F ELDC keep the voltage stable? That answer is no. 

SMD did a test as well, and with his system, it was still dropping. Did it help? Of course. But what about that 500F? 
Why does it not work? 


The truth is? ELDC are not being used correctly in car audio. And the cost vs Performance is terrible. 








A Graphene based RC Turnigy battery can do 8KW at 600 Grams. Cost: $23.98


With all things being equal, (They are not) A lithium polymer Cell kicks the living **** out of ELDC if scaled to the same size IF you require it for voltage stabilization. In fact, Flooded NiCad and Ni0-Mh have better stablity and will not go under 1 Volt even under HIGH PEAK current load. (as well as other factors) 

Study this: 
E = ½CV2 E

Then understand why at the same cost $500-1000 spent on say, oh.. A lithium based battery can outdue to the perfromace of the ELDC in your system by a margin of 10,000:1. 

That 500 Farad? What if I told you that you only really get a *Tiny Fraction *of that in the application of car audio? 

But do what you want. Its your money. You waste it how you want.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> PS, it kills me that every time I get to a street light, I have to put it in park, and rev the truck up to 2K rpm's jist to keep from dropping way down towards 13 volts. Hits so much better at 14.5 😉


It would be most cost effective to Buy used and crashed Prius.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

dcfis said:


> Any you recommend? What about using one as the main battery only? My little Honda battery is fine with the engine off but wears down fast when off


There is a lot of people that have used supercapacitor banks in place of the under hood starting battery.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

imickey503 said:


> I don't feel like throwing up battery graphs. But the end of the day? The Price per performance is not there for the average daily user. This has to do with the discharge curve. C rate and many other factors. (Derp)
> 
> 
> I hate making these serious posts, but why not.
> ...


How did that Maxwell charge itself to 15. Whatever volts in that video? That is impossible. It would have been whatever the batteries were. The truck was not running yet so unless I’m missing something that video is some BS.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah SMD did a test there is many that have done them. Did you watch his video? The caps made a huge difference in the amount of voltage fluctuation. He had the videos side by side to see. With the caps added and some batteries removed the voltage barely moved it was VERY much more stabilized untill the long drawn out bass notes. And even then it seemed to take longer with the caps before it dropped low. With batteries only even the quick bass slaps, as he called them, made he voltage drop into the orange. With caps they barely budged. Very very much a big difference. 
So I might have remembered a little bit wrong about the voltage dropping low on long bass notes. But I am very much correct that they made huge impact on voltage stabilization.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

imickey503 said:


> It would be most cost effective to Buy used and crashed Prius.


No, no..... My SQL system is in my F150 truck. My car has a modest 5 ch amp, a DSP, and an 8" sub woofer. Sounds great, albeit not as loud or stomach shaking as the truck.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

imickey503 said:


> I don't feel like throwing up battery graphs. But the end of the day? The Price per performance is not there for the average daily user. This has to do with the discharge curve. C rate and many other factors. (Derp)
> 
> 
> I hate making these serious posts, but why not.
> ...


it’s not good to run lithium and AGM together For a few reasons. Why would you recommend a lithium based battery in place of a supercap bank when it should not be ran together For a few reasons. One I remember is the resting voltages are different. There is a other problem with lithium and they don’t like cold weather. And on XS powers site it says to never over charge their lithium battery. To not go over 14.4v. Well now that’s another problem because I have a 370 amp 15v alternator.

why is it everyone is drinking the lithium koolaid right now and ignoring all the faults like the ones I listed and also ignoring the fact that they should
It mix them with AGM and so it anyways and massage the lithium batteries balls. 😜. Yet they are ready to talk down supercap banks in a instant? And it’s always The same **** and always LITHIUM IS THE GREATEST and super caps suck! 😂😂😂. If one is going to argue for one over the other one should know he should not be mixing them with other types or over voltage charging them. 

I’m done after this ...There is a place for for each. 
Lithium would be awesome in a lithium only setup and an alternator that charges at or close to 14.4

with a HO alternator and higher voltage charging and a couple batteries a super capacitor bank or two compliments this setup very well!


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> I never even though about that! Even still with these new amps it is very easy to draw tons of current if cranking out a lot of bass. I think I get it now... no one on this forum listens at very loud levels as I do. Guess I am more of a “SQL” person. I want the sound quality but want it along with the bass hitting in the 130-140s and to be clean and keeping up with the bass.
> I’m not into elevator music 😉


What is the amp drawing during the 130-140 dB hits?

One can probably figure out how much the capacitor would help.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Wrong ! I TOTALLY like LOUD music, and I'm a bass head 🙂 I'm also an SQL kind of guy like yourself. Like I have said, within a year, I hope to be running a 6 Kwt daily driver setup, and I really don't want my voltage to dip below 14.4 on a hot day, at idle 🙂 ....
> And I mean, not even for a micro second on a super hard hit from the kick drums ! (where the capacitor bank will probably come in)
> To that end, I'm just going to start working on the whole electrical upgrade list, and take it as far as I have to. I'm hoping about $2K more will do it 🙂 .... well, that will include a different 18" sub, and another strappable amp.
> 
> PS, it kills me that every time I get to a street light, I have to put it in park, and rev the truck up to 2K rpm's jist to keep from dropping way down towards 13 volts. Hits so much better at 14.5 😉


I understand this completely! Just two days ago I scored a brand New XS D3100 for 225$ woohoo! Replaced a group 49agm which was about double the size of the oem battery. Then the next day I scored again by trading my little Stinger spp680 power cell that I had in the trunk for a brand new Odyssey group 31! Went from 117ah to 227ah! That helped a lot on my
Voltage drop. Now it doesn’t drop when driving and stays around 14.8v I’m two days I have never seen anything below 14.2v . I’m still going to add a supercap bank because so know it will stabalize it even more and also electronics will work better and longer with stabilized voltage. 
Gonna get a Chinese knockoff for much cheaper. This one in this pic









I’m also gonna put a smaller Maxwell up by the d3100 just to help minimize voltage fluctuations becausE my car is sensitive to voltage changes and will sometimes jerk (feel like power loss) to the beat of the bass. Don’t think it does that after the new batteries but I’m still adding it for piece of mind. It’s the second cap bank pic below. 







Spoke with the seller of these and they listed as used But never been used, they were taken from some Machine that had never been used.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Holmz said:


> What is the amp drawing during the 130-140 dB hits?
> 
> One can probably figure out how much the capacitor would help.


I wish I knew. Went to test it and my clamp meter no longer works. Never got around to getting another. I just posted above this that my
Voltage is now super stabile. But for another reason Still want to add come
Cap banks. Plus my ocd says I need to. With my 15v alt I’m guessing I’ll maintain 14.8-15v once the caps are added since they will charge to 15v.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> I wish I knew. Went to test it and my clamp meter no longer works. Never got around to getting another. I just posted above this that my
> Voltage is now super stabile. But for another reason Still want to add come
> Cap banks. Plus my ocd says I need to. With my 15v alt I’m guessing I’ll maintain 14.8-15v once the caps are added since they will charge to 15v.


That was a nice Freudian slip.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

FOr the Lulz 
========================================================================


> Fish Chris 2 said:
> 
> 
> > No, no..... My SQL system is in my F150 truck. My car has a modest 5 ch amp, a DSP, and an 8" sub woofer. Sounds great, albeit not as loud or stomach shaking as the truck.
> ...



========================================================================


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Selkec said:


> So why the hate for supercaps/ ultra caps on this forum compared to other forums? Is this a classic example of monkey see monkey do? Simply repeating what you have read before?


Mostly because this is a sound quality oriented forum and most sq systems don't even remotely approach the level of power that requires a capacitor bank. Hell, even a near 7000 watt rms system is fine with 2 batteries and a 370 amp alternator and appropriate wiring. On the subject of capacitors themselves, they are really most useful when there isn't sufficient capacitance built into the amps, most commonly seen in smaller class D amps and really powerful class A/B amps. Small class D amps are usually used for mids and highs, no need for massive capacitance there. Really powerful class A/B amps aren't usually used for bass duties in sq systems, again, no need for massive capacitance, and not common around here. I have seen a few sq guys running Mosconi Zero One's on subs, those could definitely use a capacitor bank.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Selkec said:


> Yeah SMD did a test there is many that have done them. Did you watch his video? The caps made a huge difference in the amount of voltage fluctuation. He had the videos side by side to see. With the caps added and some batteries removed the voltage barely moved it was VERY much more stabilized untill the long drawn out bass notes. And even then it seemed to take longer with the caps before it dropped low.
> 
> 
> ckirocz28 said:
> ...





ckirocz28 said:


> Mostly because this is a sound quality oriented forum and most sq systems don't even remotely approach the level of power that requires a capacitor bank. Hell, even a near 7000 watt rms system is fine with 2 batteries and a 370 amp alternator and appropriate wiring. On the subject of capacitors themselves, they are really most useful when there isn't sufficient capacitance built into the amps, most commonly seen in smaller class D amps and really powerful class A/B amps. Small class D amps are usually used for mids and highs, no need for massive capacitance there. Really powerful class A/B amps aren't usually used for bass duties in sq systems, again, no need for massive capacitance, and not common around here. I have seen a few sq guys running Mosconi Zero One's on subs, those could definitely use a capacitor bank.


I'm not 100% sure about this. A 370 amp alt and two good strong batteries will definitely take you a long ways, especially for long, continuous bass notes, but I could see kick drums on a 7Kwt system, not being able to get enough juice quickly enough.... Depending on the amps of course. I think my amps are pretty decent, for doing the power they are rated for, but probably do not have crazy strong capacitance, like some high end amps might have. Just guessing, but I assume they would have to cut costs somewhere.


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## FlyingEagle (Sep 22, 2017)

Selkec said:


> what was his famous “big cap” I think I read he stated his was not even 1 farad in that video. 😂. That is less than those toy caps mentioned in this thread.
> 
> maybe you are talking about the power station instead? I have no idea what that is. But yes that is big


Back when amplifiers made 30W-150W, were potentially unregulated and power/draw cycles could be hampering output and had terrible efficiency ratings, anything put in front of them acting as a noise cancellation feature and power booster, helped.
It didn't have to be big. Why would it?

I see the point to the thread, but in a cabin space of a car or even SUV, you can have glorious amounts of sound pressure, without having 5000 watts behind it. People have been finding ways of filling their ears, on a budget, as is the theme here for gosh knows how long. Money or not, most here are looking at innovation and installation of common gear. 
Needing massive banks of extra storage and power generation is a different beast. Some cater to that here, but most of us with wagons carry bikes and home reno stuff as our "gear" above the floor with amps below the floor, so no need to build in 4x15" subs and rebuild the floor ahead of the rear axle assembly to put batteries where the fuel tank goes and move the tank to the spare wheel well, and so and so on.

We don't hate it, we just don't need it?


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> I'm not 100% sure about this. A 370 amp alt and two good strong batteries will definitely take you a long ways, especially for long, continuous bass notes, but I could see kick drums on a 7Kwt system, not being able to get enough juice quickly enough.... Depending on the amps of course. I think my amps are pretty decent, for doing the power they are rated for, but probably do not have crazy strong capacitance, like some high end amps might have. Just guessing, but I assume they would have to cut costs somewhere.


My Wolfram W3000.1's are cheap ($450 each shipped when I bought them), and they have enough built in capacitance that turning them on causes more of a voltage drop than cranking the volume does. My statements about built in capacitance are mostly about physical amplifier size rather than cost. Larger amplifiers have much more room for capacitor banks than small amps, hence the sometimes mentioned lack of dynamics with tiny class D amps. Capacitors definitely have their place, I've just never had a need for additional external capacitors.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

there are a few threads here where people are placed their power stage supply rail capacitors to a higher value and lower esr. That might be a better option if you ask me. I don't see any downsides to this.


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## deadrx7conv (Aug 25, 2010)

I haven't seen ultracapacitors cause 'fires'. Same can not be said for lithium tech in cellphones, laptops, and new airliners. Also, seen plenty on motorcycles live a short life. The lithium battery worked well for a short time and then simply quit. 

It is just too simple to just add another traditional lead/acid, EFB, or AGM battery. And, this is what I usually recommend for simplicity, along with the biggest alternator you can find for your power habits. 

Now, if space is an issue, or you don't want to add excessive weight, an ultracapacitor can be used in parallel with your car battery, as the car battery, or isolated like a dedicated for the amp 2nd battery. 

A battery, or capacitor, only works if your alternator can charge it. If you don't have the ability to recharge it between bobblehead bass hits, then it will keep discharging until your voltage drops too low, and you'll have to shut down the boom and wait for battery, capacitor, or combo to recharge. 

Stick with Eaton or Maxwell from a reputable seller. Learn to make your own 6 cell ultracapacitor packs vs buying premade ultracaps banks from fleabay/scamazon. 

You can start most cars with a 6 pack of 300F capacitors. Eaton/Maxwell make them in 3000-3400F sizes which can replace a car battery. A six-pack of 3000-3400F capacitors weigh <7lbs. And, you can assemble them like a boxer 6 cylinder, like a 6-pack of beer, single tube, or stacked inline. 

I use ultra-capacitors in parallel with my car battery. I don't see cost as an issue. How much do those fancy batteries cost? How much weight or space do they take? How much do we spend(time or money) on soundproofing, amplifiers, speakers.... ?



https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/electronic-components/resources/data-sheet/eaton-xl60-supercapacitors-cylindrical-cells-data-sheet.pdf





https://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/K2_2_7V_3400_ds_3001923_Datasheet.pdf


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

I'm still making my way through this thread - but I wanted to try to help, hoping/helping guide the discussion into two paths:
1) basics on "why capacitors"
vs
2) difference between capacitors and supercapacitors

Hard to have a conversation on (2) when there's so many myths and misunderstandings with (1), right?

And I worry because (1) usually devolves into someone who thinks they can "just alternator" their way out of voltage drops... engine consequences be damned.


Selkec said:


> When I search supercap banks or ultra caps etc... what’s up with the majority of people here not liking or bad talking about super capacitor banks? And the actual lack of any real talk is any about them?
> It’s always the same old ****.... people ask what’s needed in their electrical and it’s always first the BIG THREE.
> 
> bigger alternator which is obvious
> ...


Yikes - "obvious"? 

Yes a car comes with just an alternator and battery. But we're adding amps that - even for guys who aren't building boom cars - have enough capability to draw more current for brief instances than an alternator can provide...

...and more to the point: there's no reason to make your wallet or engine (or mpg or enjoyment of acceleration) suffer full time just to dodge a few peaks that wouldn't leave you unable you start your car anyway.

There's other ways to protect your car battery from damage, your amps from damage, and minimize the drama - it's what caps do.

The analogy I like best: car suspensions.
Batteries and alternators are the springs.
A capacitor is the shock absorbers.
...they don't hold up the voltage like the alternator and battery do - they smooth the transitions, because nothing else does.

That also means - 
A battery isn't a capacitor.
A capacitor isn't a battery.

A huge alternator doesn't eliminate the need for a capacitor just like big car springs don't eliminate the need for shock absorbers - but a huge alternator does penalize horsepower, mpg, and acceleration (the bigger the alternator the bigger the penalty).
A capacitor also functions as a noise filter. There's really no down side - so the anti-cap vitriol has always puzzled me.

So "a bigger alternator" really isn't - shouldn't be - obvious. For most people, it should be "last option".



Selkec said:


> but never add a super capacitor bank or two to the system.
> adding more and more batteries has diminishing returns.
> 1 big battery up front and 1 i. the rear should be fine
> 
> UNLESS you set with your car off and listen to music. But who does that?


Some people do, and that's really THE argument FOR having a second battery.

Besides that benefit, a second battery really only adds an additional load on the alternator, it takes away from the ability of the alternator to hold that 14.4v level. 

If we have enough resistance in our power wire from front to rear to justify the "battery in the rear is easier for the amp", then it's also compounding the ability of the alternator to charge it... and we'll encounter voltage drop more, not less...

So I'd rather design in protection and capability for voltage drop to not harm batteries and amps.



Selkec said:


> after having two good batteries you would benefit much more by adding say a 17v 566 farad super cap bank to stabilize your voltage. Adding a third heavy ass battery would barely make any difference.
> 
> So why the hate for supercaps/ ultra caps on this forum compared to other forums? Is this a classic example of monkey see monkey do? Simply repeating what you have read before?


I saw some discussion in this thread about 1F caps, like they were bad...
...those are the good ones. Round electrolytics, with low enough ESR that they can be faster than your batteries response to current demand.
It was those huge box-shaped not-really caps of the '00s that were 20F, 30F ...but had high ESR that led to that myth about how "caps don't do anything".

All you need is a cap that holds enough charge that it discharges each time voltage drops, and has low enough ESR that it fills the sub-second gap as the chemical reaction in a battery struggles to rise to sudden current demand. That's it.

Which is why I'm curious about these so called super-caps. Sure enough - these DO look like legitimate, real capacitors, so maybe there's hope that these ARE better than big 1F and 2F round electrolytics.



Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Hey Geolomon, great post. Sounds like you have some really good insight.

So let me ask something about my situation.
My truck has only the factory alternator (130 amp, at best) and a really cheap, battery from Walmart, yet it can "almost" hold 14.5 volts while beating on my system, right to the clipping point. I say almost, meaning, it won't do it at idol, nor on a hot day, and it's getting worse as time goes on.
Okay, so my next purchase is going to be a 320amp alternator + a nice, strong AGM battery.

Now, "I thought" I would add another battery or two, as a next step, although, I have totally considered caps.

Knowing what you know, would you go for the extra battery or two ? OR the caps as step #2 ?

PS, as close to "handling it" as my old crappy electrical was before, you might say that the 320 amp alt + strong AGM will be plenty as it is, which I hope is true.... But I have other ideas for the near future which might need twice the juice I'm making now. So I'm also trying to future proof.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

The supercap would also stabilise the alternator load, so that the output isn't trying to always add more, or back off... in a lagging way in response to the intermittent load.

So if I am reading his post correctly, then he is suggesting that you should add the supercap first.

If it is sagging at idle now, that supercap will not help that... but the larger alternator may also struggle as the output is only at the rated power at the higher RPMs.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Are the knock off cap banks really that bad? They can be had for half to third of the price. If they have the same specs is it that the specs are not true?
Where can someone purchase Maxwell or Eaton here in the states for a decent price? I seem some new Maxwell caps on eBay. Is there ways to tell if they are the real thing? 

also how many farads or what size banks should one use for a 2500 and 1200 watt amp? Is there a general rule to go by? I have read and seen a video that said something like 50 farads for 1000watts. But that’s a lot less than cap banks usually are

Would that smaller Maxwell cap bank I showed above for 65$ Beneficial at all?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Wrong ! I TOTALLY like LOUD music, and I'm a bass head 🙂 I'm also an SQL kind of guy like yourself. Like I have said, within a year, I hope to be running a 6 Kwt daily driver setup, and I really don't want my voltage to dip below 14.4 on a hot day, at idle 🙂 ....
> And I mean, not even for a micro second on a super hard hit from the kick drums ! (where the capacitor bank will probably come in)
> To that end, I'm just going to start working on the whole electrical upgrade list, and take it as far as I have to. I'm hoping about $2K more will do it 🙂 .... well, that will include a different 18" sub, and another strappable amp.
> 
> PS, it kills me that every time I get to a street light, I have to put it in park, and rev the truck up to 2K rpm's jist to keep from dropping way down towards 13 volts. Hits so much better at 14.5 😉


What is your current wiring? Have you changed everything to good 1/0 ofc or better? Big 3 runs to the rear? 

I’m contemplating selling my odyssey group 31 and put a supercap bank or two in its place. Too much weight on the same side of my car now. And they are gonna upgrade my alternator to 390 when I send it in for repair.


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## deadrx7conv (Aug 25, 2010)

Yes, knocks off can be that bad and are usually factory rejects. Ones I've tested didn't come close to stated capacity and also self-drained rapidly. Pay more for quality or buy extra generics for testing..... Wasn't worth buying 9 generics to get 6 matching tolerable(only tolerable) 1/2 rated cap's and then battle seller for refund/credit. 

No way to know if you get a knock-off or real thing from scamazon/fleabay. You can only test them(full charge to fix current discharge measurement), no load time to empty from full charge to no charge or measured voltage drop in 24-72 hours...

So, again, its either Maxwell or Eaton, from a reputable store like Mouser. Can't find the SkelCaps anywhere anymore.








SkelCap Ultracapacitors


SkelCap Ultracapacitor cells in the industry standard, large D60 format




www.skeletontech.com


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Selkec said:


> What is your current wiring? Have you changed everything to good 1/0 ofc or better? Big 3 runs to the rear?
> 
> I’m contemplating selling my odyssey group 31 and put a supercap bank or two in its place. Too much weight on the same side of my car now. And they are gonna upgrade my alternator to 390 when I send it in for repair.


Yes, I did the big 3 and 1/0 cable more than 10 years ago.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

geolemon said:


> ...
> The analogy I like best: car suspensions.
> Batteries and alternators are the springs.
> A capacitor is the shock absorbers.
> ...


EE types have used circuit design to model suspensions...

The springs are more like capacitors, and the shock absorbers are more analogous to resistors.


----------



## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

> I wish we could get Gene in here from Audioholics. The man has a Built in Switch for ********.
> 
> I'm not saying you should. But lets just take this to heart. If you pay good money for your amps? Why would you cheap out on the power system? That's the* FIRST l*ink in the *chain. *
> 
> ...


----------



## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Hey Geolomon, great post. Sounds like you have some really good insight.
> 
> So let me ask something about my situation.
> My truck has only the factory alternator (130 amp, at best) and a really cheap, battery from Walmart, yet it can "almost" hold 14.5 volts while beating on my system, right to the clipping point. I say almost, meaning, it won't do it at idol, nor on a hot day, and it's getting worse as time goes on.
> ...


Well I just wanted to preface with the basics in case this also devolved into a "caps don't do anything" thread. I don't think it's going to.

320A alternator from a 120A alternator - the problem is that is going to make your horsepower. MPG, and acceleration all worse. None of that makes the car more fun to drive, and I'm not sure avoiding a little headlight dimming does either, when there's ways to at least dodge the drama. It's a little like cutting your toes off to fit into running shoes, if you are a runner.
Electrical power isn't free - you only get more from making it harder to turn.

Then there's the concern about voltage drop, which may or may not be misplaced:
Yes, when your current demands exceed the 120A your alternator can produce, voltage drops until it reaches the 12v level of the battery, and the battery supplies whatever leftover current the alternator couldn't provide.

No... that's not an inherent problem. 
It doesn't need to be avoided at all costs. 

It's not even _a_ problem, until you are not only draining the battery - but draining the battery SO much that you aren't recharging as much as you discharge. Sure - if you get home and you have less than the 12.5v you left with, that's a problem...
...of course - driving with the volume a little lower for 5 minutes would fix that.  
It's "peak current draw" vs "average current draw". It's only when the average exceeds the alternator current that we're between a rock and a hard place and have to install that engine anchor.

But even before I did that, I'd want to troubleshoot... I'd want to know what's screwed up so badly in the installation design that there's amps that exceed the current capability of the electrical system. Think about this:

90dB is a pretty loud shouting level between two people - and playing your system at that level only uses between 1-2 watts of power. Literally. Google that.

So listening at even a reasonably loud volume level doesn't exceed your alternator, I guarantee. I don't care how big your amps are.

You'd need to be absolutely blasting it, at SPL competition levels, with -0dB recording levels, and for 100% of your drive, residential neighborhoods or business districts (or other places that give 'car audio' a bad name and lead to decibel laws) be damned... with the amp clipping...etc.

But back to the system design -
SPL competition is burping. You don't need a big alternator for that. And no one runs a competition box in a daily driver.

If I could hit 140dB in a box tuned below 30hz with three 1990s tens and a 400w RMS amp, why are you running 8,000w amps, or whatever? What a waste. Increasing power is the least effective way to get louder... Not to mention as you increase power, you have to bring in subs with heavier (read: higher mass/less efficient) windings to handle the power increase - and those also inherently have stiffer suspensions (read: less efficient/directly impeding excursion), so you need more watts just to be as loud as you were before. Yikes.

But I digress...
Let's get back to why the voltage dropping isn't a problem. Your suggested scenarios:

*Scenario 1: no capacitor.*
So your amp slams a note, it's 50a more current than the alternator can provide, for a moment. 
In that moment, voltage drops quickly from 14.4v to the 12.5v battery level - sub-second time here. Batteries are chemical devices, slow to provide current, so voltage continues to drop in that sub second span... 12v... 11.5v...11v?...oh wait there it is, 12.5v... Bass note ends, 14.4v. Charging again.

This isn't really too much of a problem, except that sudden current demand can crack battery plates over time. Having voltage drop too low can even cause amp damage, as an amp will try to keep making power - voltage times amps. Voltage goes down, current goes up - and parts in the amp are designed to operate on the current that flows when voltage is between 12v and 14.4v.
So over time, not great.

*Scenario 2: with capacitor.*
So your amp slams a note, it's 50a more current than the alternator can provide, for a moment. 
In that moment, voltage drops quickly from 14.4v to the 12.5v battery level - sub-second time... batteries are chemical devices... slow to provide current...
(Sound familiar?)
But this time, the moment voltage started to drop in the system, voltage also dropped in the capacitor - it's what they do, they are always tracking at system voltage. In order to do that, they discharge current into the system - handy, since the battery is still waking up, which slows the voltage drop, buying the battery precious time to rise. By the time voltage reaches 12.5v, the battery is producing - no undue stress on the plates - the cap took that shock, and it's no shock to a cap... it's what they do.
As soon as the voltage rises, the cap is again 100% charged by the instant voltage hits 14.4 again. It's a cap.

*Scenario 3: extra batteries, no cap.*
So your amp slams a note, it's 50a more current than the alternator can provide, for a moment. 
...actually, now it's 60a or so more than the amp can handle, because it's always got that extra load of extra batteries and their internal resistance as extra passive loads on the electrical system. 
(and if we weren't not able to start the car, and have an irrational fear of 12.5v... why are they here? :hmm: )
In that moment, voltage drops quickly from 14.4v to the 12.5v battery level - sub-second time here. Batteries are chemical devices, slow to provide current, so voltage continues to drop in that sub second span... 12v... 11.5v...11v?...oh wait there it is, 12.5v... Bass note ends, 14.4v. Charging again.
...but this time it's the rear batteries that were drained more, so recharge has to happen through longer (read: more resistance) power wire.
I'm not sure we've benefited here.

Food for thought.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Time is a consideration with both capacitors and supercapacitors:


https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/rc_2.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F



And again - to my points above - they discharge (and recharge) in sub-second time. You are only covering the battery rise time, to act as an electrical system shock absorber, and avoid the battery being overstressed.

The time formula isn't crazy:
T=R*C
Where, R is in Ω and C in Farads.

So you see there's a practical limit to how many farads you really need, to cover a sub-second voltage drop scenario. It's not many.
And you can see why you want caps with the lowest internal resistance possible - and as little resistance between them, and whatever discharges them.

It's just how capacitors work. 😉

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Holmz said:


> The supercap would also stabilise the alternator load, so that the output isn't trying to always add more, or back off... in a lagging way in response to the intermittent load.
> 
> So if I am reading his post correctly, then he is suggesting that you should add the supercap first.
> 
> If it is sagging at idle now, that supercap will not help that... but the larger alternator may also struggle as the output is only at the rated power at the higher RPMs.


Here's the thing, my stock alternator probably drops all the way down to 80 amps when idling... or maybe lower, as it gets more and more worn out and closer to complete failure. I am super confident that my new alternator, which might drop down to 180 or so, at idle, on a hot day, will totally keep my voltage up to 14.5. Now, even though my new, much better AGM battery should be able to put out stronger bursts of power, I still think "the right" capacitor(s) would help, for kick drums and such. Its just so hard to find a consensus on what the "right capacitor(s)" might be ???

Oh also, I'm totally not concerned about the 10hp I might lose turning a bigger, beefier alternator. Its never been a race truck anyway. But if I feel enough additional drag that it bothers me, I might finally go on and get an aftermarket chip for it, and gain back that 10hp + maybe a little more too.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Geolemon, I promise you their is nothing "so wrong with my system". As I have said, I cant believe it does so well as it does with a 3/4's worn out stock alternator, and a $50 wal mart battery ! Here's the thing, we just obviously have different thoughts on "what is loud" and how loud it needs to be. I play music MUCH louder than 90 db's for hours sometimes. In fact, I push my system right to edge of clipping (quick little blinks on my clipping indicator on those kick drums I've mentioned) 75% of the time I'm driving. I LOVE it when I can play deep bass so loud it blurs my vision  Not only does it sound cool, but "it feels awesome too" 

So that 320 amp alternator is on the way now. Will pick up a nice strong group 65 AGM battery in a couple hours. I think making enough amperage, and keeping my voltage up is going to be no problem now. So if I may ask again, what kinds or brands of capacitors should I consider, to provide small, but very quick burst of current, that will help with those quick spikes of current ?


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

It's not so much different thoughts on "what is loud", as how to get there.
I'll restate - power is the least efficient way to get louder. The more amp power you use, the less efficient subwoofers you inherently use, and it takes a fourfold increase in power to effect a twofold increase in loudness, even if that weren't true - in reality, because of all the engineering it takes to make a subwoofer handle more thermal power, it's inherently going to sacrifice efficiency (due to both mass increase and suspension compliance being reduced to manage the mass). 

In all my years in the industry (nearly 30), I've had roles everywhere from subwoofer engineering, to fabrication and system engineering, and even was pulled back into the industry from IT to manage a large retail startup for several years when an investor pulled me in and was willing to match my IT implementation consulting salary. I've built show cars, demo cars, competition vehicles (SQ and SPL, but yes, SQ and imaging is more difficult and so more interesting to me), and I still say power is the most expensive and least effective way to get loud. 
With my three tens and 400 watts I mentioned earlier, I could flip quarters on my moonroof, make my door panels "breathe", hear it a mile away (had a cross-street neighbor come out and had to profusely apologize because I shook an entire shelf of souvenirs off their wall), shake every bone in your body, drop the rear-view mirror to point straight down at the dashboard... and all that with 400 watts, stock alternator,and a sub-30hz tune.

And yes, with a wall of 15's and a higher tune in a demo van and two 4000w amps, sure we hit bigger numbers on a meter with the shop demo van and an endless rotation of 15's to play with (and at least half the time, it wasn't the "SPL subs" that burped loudest) - but that's not how you make a daily driver system loud. 
I did a wall of 15's in a Focus daily driver, that did get very loud, and we did need decent power for that, but I don't think we needed to do more than 500 watts per sub.
Lots of the techniques to meter big numbers, inherently make it worse for a daily driver. Even sub design fundamentally - SPL subs make terrible daily driver subs. You engineer in "big BL", by putting ALL the windings in or near the magnetic gap at rest - that maximizes L, no matter your B. And that also reduces your Xmax, no matter your Xmech, which inherently reduces the abilities to play not just a broad range of frequencies, but specifically low frequencies. But in SPL competition - who cares? Even if you targeted a low frequency, you'd do it with a tuning frequency aligned to [what must be a large interior space like an SUV - not a great strategy for big numbers] interior resonance, and you'd inherently reduce excursion by coordinating your burping and tuning frequency.

So I prefer to not run big power. 
I want my subs to play ALL the frequencies, I want music to be loud with subs that have lots of Xmax, and I want it to be efficient. 
Plus, it's sort of like driving a Corvette. Everyone expects the 'Vette to be fast. So when you are driving the 'Vette and get your doors blown off by some kid in a sleeper tuned daily driver Golf R, it's embarrassing for the 'Vette driver. The Golf R driver can - and should - be proud, especially if he's the tuner, the designer of his strategy.
I'm more of a Golf R kind of guy. 😉 But I digress...

I'm not a brand whore, I am a fan of bang-for-the-buck. For electrolytic caps, there's three numbers that matter - voltage (20v and up is best, 15v and 16v are bare minimum), Farads (obviously), and ESR - or really just DC resistance (ESR is sort of a misnomer, it's really for AC applications) - the less the better, as that will make the cap faster to respond.

If you are looking to protect your batteries from cracking plates, and maybe your amps from over-current if you do drop right PAST the voltage level of the battery, due to that battery rise time - do the math, use that formula: T=R*C
And actually, manipulating that, I think we get C = T/R, unless I have that backwards.
Actually, use this, it's easier to just plug in T and R to get C in Farads: RC time constant calculator

I'd probably start with my amp fusing, subtract your alternator current (although you might want to validate that at idle with a clamp-on ammeter - sometimes alternator makers are pretty sneaky about that stuff), and then use 1/4 second as a time constant for a drop (it's small, but you won't be using your full amp fusing for current draw, so there's some padding there).

Even for these super-capacitors, there's no such thing as the theoretical "0 ohm DC" capacitor, but that's really the spec that matters most, so I'd dig through the spec sheets, whatever you are considering.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> ...Now, even though my new, much better AGM battery should be able to put out stronger bursts of power, I still think "the right" capacitor(s) would help, for kick drums and such. Its just so hard to find a consensus on what the "right capacitor(s)" might be ???


 Just wanted to stress - to me it's not the "stronger" burst of power... that sounds like salesmanship that borders dangerously on the "You should get a more durable battery!" that led people to buy "deep cycle" batteries back in the day... which are inherently SLOWER to rise, due to their ticker plates (higher internal resistance) and slower to charge- actually compounding the problem that led to cracked battery plates to begin with.

It's a FASTER rise to be able to start flowing current from the battery that matters. That does matter less if you have a capacitor to help that transition, from "alternator at 14.4v" to "alternator+battery at 12.5v", so it's a good band-aid for people who did make the "oops" to a slow but durable deep-cycle battery, and it's a general help just for the health of your electrical system - even for a huge system with a giant alternator. You still have batteries, and you still might exceed the alternator, so yes.

It's how much current... for electrolytics, the voltage rating was usually the giveaway for how "good' the cap was. The 20v ones were the "good" ones.
For these "super caps", I don't know, but I've seen some suggestions.

I'm still trying to figure out the compromise with "super caps", they aren't large - yes, you need to build an array so you can cover the 14.4v of your alternator (16.2v seems possible/common), but they still don't seem large compared to the electrolytics. So I'm interested if they truly do hold as much (or more!) charge, if they do have lower internal resistance, etc. Clearly the amount of raw farads is far in excess of what we really need to cover a drop.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Lots of good info!!!! Thanks for all of that! 
I just sent my alternator in to have the diodes or whatever fixed. Think it’s getting upgraded to a 390amp while they have it. 
With my 370 amp 15v alternator in long Loud bass songs why was that not enough to keep up with my 2500 watt amp? It did a good job most of the time.
hopefully with it being fixed and raised to 390 and now having the d3100 and odyssey group 31 I may be able to sell the odyssey to drop some weight in the car. 

woild 390 alt + d3100 + one Maxwell or xs power supercap bank be plenty?
It should be.
I noticed with my new batteries the resting voltage is now 13.2v where it used to be 12.8


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Okay well, here's my mono amp;








Wolfram Audio C-2400.1 Class D Monoblock


THE NUMBER ONE SOURCE FOR ALPHARD AUDIO, AMPERE AUDIO, CERTIFIED BASSHEAD, CRESCENDO AUDIO, HORN BLASTERS, INCRIMINATOR AUDIO, MECHMAN, SKAR AUDIO, SUNDOWN AUDIO, XS POWER and SMD Products. Lowest prices, fastest shipping and the best customer service in the industry. #Down4SoundDifference




www.down4soundshop.com




And here's my 4 ch








SKv2-100.4AB | 800 Watt Class A/B 4-Channel Car Amplifier


The Skar Audio SKv2-100.4AB is an extremely powerful class A/B car multi-channel amplifier. Get competition grade power with audiophile sound quality out this 4-channel amplifier, capable of powering your entire aftermarket speaker sound stage.



www.skaraudio.com





And here's my new alternator which is on the way





2008 Ford F-150 5.4L 8 Cyl Alternator. Custom Built; 320 Amps; PCM controlled | Phoenix Alternator


High Output Alternator Ford F-150 2008 5.4L 8 Cyl



phoenix-alternator.com





Honestly, like I've said, I think my setup will be rock solid at full tilt at idol, on a hot day.
Again, if I have any weak point in my setup, I'm sure it will be the speed of power delivery, not the ultimate strength of it.....


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

> Selkec said:
> 
> 
> > With my 370 amp 15v alternator in long Loud bass songs why was that not enough to keep up with my 2500 watt amp? It did a good job most of the time.
> ...


Part 1-of-2


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

imickey503 said:


> Part 1-of-2


You are always pulling the good info out of thin air! You rock. 

I love the idea of a pulley plus cooling...
Is that as simple as a pulley with a fan blade?

I'd worry about the bearings too, but the cooking would help a bit there. I'd take a chance.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

> Part 2-of-2
> 
> 
> YOU need to have a BALANCE.
> ...


----------



## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

geolemon said:


> You are always pulling the good info out of thin air! You rock.
> 
> I love the idea of a pulley plus cooling...
> Is that as simple as a pulley with a fan blade?
> ...


90% of the time, most serpentine belt systems are not in spec anyways. they are loose. In fact, this causes more damage due to Harmonics then Load tension. 

In fact, most quality sealed bearings have at least a 20 year service life if kept in good condition. ***, Japan SPEC NSK, and a few others made in the USA and Europe make bearings that are pretty much a one night stand Purchase. 


> *About the cooling. GERMANS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

imickey503 said:


> 90% of the time, most serpentine belt systems are not in spec anyways. they are loose. In fact, this causes more damage due to Harmonics then Load tension.
> 
> In fact, most quality sealed bearings have at least a 20 year service life if kept in good condition. ***, Japan SPEC NSK, and a few others made in the USA and Europe make bearings that are pretty much a one night stand Purchase.


I was thinking more of bearing RPM...
Did you have to change the belt, or was there enough adjustment left in the tensioner?

I'd be interested in the cooling system - I'll Google, but where did you get yours?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Okay well, here's my mono amp;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dYmir


Fish Chris 2 said:


> Okay well, here's my mono amp;
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Fish Chris 2 said:


> Okay well, here's my mono amp;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



does this new alternator have a smaller pulley?

if I remember correctly I Got a 1” shorter belt because the pulley is much smaller on my HO alternator and it’s very tight with the belt tensioner at the very end of it’s adjustment limits. My belt never slips but did wear out the tensioner in 8 months


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

geolemon said:


> It's not so much different thoughts on "what is loud", as how to get there.
> I'll restate - power is the least efficient way to get louder. The more amp power you use, the less efficient subwoofers you inherently use, and it takes a fourfold increase in power to effect a twofold increase in loudness, even if that weren't true - in reality, because of all the engineering it takes to make a subwoofer handle more thermal power, it's inherently going to sacrifice efficiency (due to both mass increase and suspension compliance being reduced to manage the mass).
> 
> In all my years in the industry (nearly 30), I've had roles everywhere from subwoofer engineering, to fabrication and system engineering, and even was pulled back into the industry from IT to manage a large retail startup for several years when an investor pulled me in and was willing to match my IT implementation consulting salary. I've built show cars, demo cars, competition vehicles (SQ and SPL, but yes, SQ and imaging is more difficult and so more interesting to me), and I still say power is the most expensive and least effective way to get loud.
> ...


I have a Vw cc with water/methanol injection, 3” Downpipe with HO cat, apr stage 2 104 octane tune. Wanted to make up for all the weight from car audio.


----------



## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

geolemon said:


> I was thinking more of bearing RPM...
> Did you have to change the belt, or was there enough adjustment left in the tensioner?
> 
> I'd be interested in the cooling system - I'll Google, but where did you get yours?
> ...


I have a MINI VAN BRO.. I made a WHOLE CUSTOM @#%@[email protected]%@!$ SYSTEM! And it only took me like.. 4 years to work the kinks out... 

1. Bearings don't care Its not the bearings you really have to worry about per say. I don't want to prove USER2 right ALL THE ****IN TIME.. BUT..* Its a LONG STORY LOL! *


2. I did change belts, but that's not what is needed for most cars. SHORT STORY: Make the Idler Pulley BIGGER. *Cheap and effective. *

3. I have an automatic pensioner. (Works just like one) Will talk about this more later.* Its a LONG story.

4. Belt. DO NOT ****ING CHANGE the size. WHY? Do you want to get stuck 3000 miles away from home?
NO!.. NO YOU DO NOT! *

5. About cooling. I just ripped one off from a BMW in the yard. However... Yea... There was MUCH more... 

6. Did the overdrive just a BOLT ON? *HELL NO!!!! * (again I will explain. But first. More cofeee and more smokes. BRB I'm just going to vida this. There is a way to make yoru own cheap, and easy.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

You know... WE really ****ed up this thread. Sorry FIsherdude! My bad.!


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## pw91686 (Apr 1, 2015)

I installed a 200 amp Singer HO alt in my 2000 4runner. Upgraded wiring under the hood. Northstar group 31 up front. Xs power sb1000 in the rear.
Amps are crossfire c7-3k @ 2 ohms, pair of zapco 150.6 AP bridged for front.
Voltage is usually around 14.3-14.5, on long bass notes with the system cranked all the way up, it will drop to around 13.6-13.8.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

imickey503 said:


> I have a MINI VAN BRO.. I made a WHOLE CUSTOM @#%@[email protected]%@!$ SYSTEM! And it only took me like.. 4 years to work the kinks out...
> 
> 1. Bearings don't care Its not the bearings you really have to worry about per say. I don't want to prove USER2 right ALL THE ****IN TIME.. BUT..* Its a LONG STORY LOL! *
> 
> ...


Im interested in the cooling from a BMW! And I like the idea of a bigger belt tensioner pulley instead of shorter belt.


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## Fathershelper211 (Apr 15, 2020)

So here is my two cents on caps. I am a automotive tech. I have extensive knowledge of electric systems in vehicles. It seems to me that now a days with the wealth of information on the internet that todays hobbiest or enthusiasts are armed with so much information that it becomes aurguable what is actually wanted vs what is actually needed. Some actually believe that every car is the same. Basic principles do apply but with the complicated electronics in todays modern vehicles things quickly change. When bass is played at high volumes in a car the amp has to pull alot of current from the electrical system. A battery is a storage tank for electricity. If the amount of current going out is more then whats coming in the battery depletes and the alternator is all thats left pumping in current. If it doesn't have the capability of keeping up it will eventually fail. Usually because it overheats. Adding 2 or more batteries adds more storage. Adding a capacitor can help reduce quick voltage drops like lights dimming ect... but it is not a fix for that. It does help with the overall capacity because its another storage tank but can charge and discharge extremely fast. The alternator needs to be able to handle the demands of the system. Most manufactures design the alternator and battery to be just above what the vehicle can demand at full load while running. Some batteries have more storage because of various demands during sleep or extended storage times. Most ppl look at all these things before having a system installed. A good designer will definately be able to tell you what you need in your car. I run a stock alt. 0 gauge wiring upgrades and a cap. Mine is just under 5000 watts rms and its just fine. But my other vehicle is only 2000 watts because in order to go more i need the more powerfull alternator. Just for example.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Wish we had more Hot rod guys in here. We only had one I know off. Mechanics are a No ******** kind a guy. We are to busy fixing crap already to deal with crap that does not give results. Farm boys too. We need MAOR. Thanks *FH211*



Selkec said:


> Im interested in the cooling from a BMW! And I like the idea of a bigger belt tensioner pulley instead of shorter belt.


_(trying not to CLOG this thread.)_



> Note this is why I'm going to make this a video. Nothing is ever free. there is a reason for all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

I love this thread! 

_notebook & pencil_
Very educational. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Here's the thing, my stock alternator probably drops all the way down to 80 amps when idling... or maybe lower, as it gets more and more worn out and closer to complete failure. I am super confident that my new alternator, which might drop down to 180 or so, at idle, on a hot day, will totally keep my voltage up to 14.5. Now, even though my new, much better AGM battery should be able to put out stronger bursts of power, I still think "the right" capacitor(s) would help, for kick drums and such. Its just so hard to find a consensus on what the "right capacitor(s)" might be ???
> 
> Oh also, I'm totally not concerned about the 10hp I might lose turning a bigger, beefier alternator. Its never been a race truck anyway. But if I feel enough additional drag that it bothers me, I might finally go on and get an aftermarket chip for it, and gain back that 10hp + maybe a little more too.


You won't notice the power loss or the mileage loss. The power loss (extra drag) will only be noticeable if you're idling in gear or maybe just idling AND beating the hell out of the subs. With all that said, if your vehicle were a weak four cylinder you'd definitely notice.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

ckirocz28 said:


> You won't notice the power loss or the mileage loss. The power loss (extra drag) will only be noticeable if you're idling in gear or maybe just idling AND beating the hell out of the subs. With all that said, if your vehicle were a weak four cylinder you'd definitely notice.


Yes, this is what I'd expect. Just like with the AC, in my little 4cyl economy cars, you could really feel the drag on the motor. In my truck with the 5.4L V8, almost no noticeable difference.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Yes, this is what I'd expect. Just like with the AC, in my little 4cyl economy cars, you could really feel the drag on the motor. In my truck with the 5.4L V8, almost no noticeable difference.


Is the possible HP power loss constant? Or would it be when the alt is cranking out a lot!


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> Is the possible HP power loss constant? Or would it be when the alt is cranking out a lot!


The later, but if the sounds are always blasting out constantly, then it seems constant.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Selkec said:


> Is the possible HP power loss constant? Or would it be when the alt is cranking out a lot!


There's definitely a constant component...
Power isn't free.
You have a heavier stator (more windings in the magnetic field) and you have a stronger magnetic field. That's where the power comes from.

Then yes, it does cause even MORE resistance under load... If your new alternator is double your old alternator, it'll have at least double the peak drag as well.

Worse, for the money you spend these never actually make the power you paid for...
You have all the parasitic drag, but do you care what power it makes when your engine revs to 6000, 7000 RPMs? Are you really driving like that? 

This chart tells most of that story.









Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

geolemon said:


> There's definitely a constant component...
> Power isn't free.
> You have a heavier stator (more windings in the magnetic field) and you have a stronger magnetic field. That's where the power comes from.
> 
> ...


Well, for all the negatives you mention, they sure sell a lot of them. I'm pretty confident that my new alternator is going to really help a lot. I'll report back to let everyone know how that goes for me.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

geolemon said:


> ...
> Then yes, it does cause even MORE resistance under load... If your new alternator is double your old alternator, it'll have at least double the peak drag as well.
> ...


^this^ is all correct, but "Drag" is probably a slightly confusing term.
We usually use that term "drag" for friction, and the magnetic field and winding produce more current and /or voltage.

Then the amount of energy to turn the unit will be friction plus output power.
So doubling the output current will double the belt load, etc.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> Worse, for the money you spend these never actually make the power you paid for...
> You have all the parasitic drag, but do you care what power it makes when your engine revs to 6000, 7000 RPMs? Are you really driving like that?


I don't know about all that, my 370 amp alt came with a smaller pulley to compensate for the additional rpm needed for output from idle on through the normal rpm range. In other words, what you're saying might apply for the stock pulley but not for a smaller pulley.
In my case, the 370 amp alternator solved every electrical deficiency I had, most of which were caused by a stupid decision by some engineer to ship the cars with a 105 amp alternator. 105 amps wasn't enough to run all of the factory electrical accessories at the same time, much less an aftermarket stereo system.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

What happens Inside an alternator for it to have more “drag” on the engine?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> What happens Inside an alternator for it to have more “drag” on the engine?


The mechanical engery gets converted to electrical energy.

Since 370A would be about 6 Horse Power, we would need 6 horses going around in circles.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I mean, it sounds like everyone is saying when alternator is putting out more power it causes more drag on the motor. How does this happen?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> I mean, it sounds like everyone is saying when alternator is putting out more power it causes more drag on the motor. How does this happen?


Read up:








Work (physics) - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





6 horses are going to the alternator, and they travel through the wires to amplifiers where the horses come out of the speakers.

Horses cause drag.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Selkec said:


> I mean, it sounds like everyone is saying when alternator is putting out more power it causes more drag on the motor. How does this happen?


I have to go drop of my ballot. When I come back, I will make a jig and show you how this works with a simple demonstration. I really need to get a Real O-Scope.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Selkec said:


> I mean, it sounds like everyone is saying when alternator is putting out more power it causes more drag on the motor. How does this happen?


It is the law of conversation of energy. Power in = power out (+ waste from inefficiency).
Power isn't free. It's physics.

An alternator has windings that spin inside a magnetic field. The magnetic field is what makes it difficult to spin (plus some inefficiency related to bearings and friction). The difficulty spinning is what causes electrons to flow.

If you want more electrons to flow, you need to make it more difficult to spin, with bigger magnets (stronger magnetic field) and a larger stator with more windings. That makes it more difficult to spin. 
Power isn't free. It's physics.

Think about an extreme increase-
Look at the generators at Niagara Falls or Hoover Dam that make electricity for entire cities. You not only can't easily spin those, but it's to such an extreme degree that it literally takes the force of the full water pressure of an entire Lake Ontario and a Lake Mead to spin just a few generators.

The bigger you make it the harder it is to spin.

Then, ADDITIONALLY, under load there's additional resistance from spinning, when the alternator is making current and the system is demanding current - the higher the current demand, the higher the ADDITIONAL load the alternator will tax the engine, until the current production peak is reached.

Here's a decently accurate assumption:
If you install an alternator with twice the current capacity of your factory alternator...
It'll be twice as difficult to spin at idle, no load, as your stock one was at idle, no load.
And, it'll be twice as difficult to spin at high RPM, and/or under load.
It's ALL proportional.

Power isn't free.
Definitely Google "conservation of energy". 😉

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

imickey503 said:


> I have to go drop of my ballot. When I come back, I will make a jig and show you how this works with a simple demonstration. I really need to get a Real O-Scope.


Sorry, I stole your O-scope thunder with a bunch of lame words. 

If you can make a Mick Nye the Science Guy demo, that would be the perfect punctuation. 

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

geolemon said:


> Sorry, I stole your O-scope thunder with a bunch of lame words.
> ...


IMO a better demo than an O-scope would be a hand crank or a bicycle pedals.
And then we can just stay with HS physics.

So ÿour words were fine.
At least the part I bolded is true.



geolemon said:


> ...
> Here's a decently accurate assumption:
> If you install an alternator with twice the current capacity of your factory alternator...
> It'll be twice as difficult to spin at idle, no load, as your stock one was at idle, no load.
> ...


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Holmz said:


> MO a better demo than an O-scope would be a hand crank or a bicycle pedals.
> And then we can just stay with HS physics.





















I'll whip it out soon.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Seems better suited to the microphone thread?


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Holmz said:


> Seems better suited to the microphone thread?


I do agree that we've gotten off track of the original topic of the thread - which WAS exactly what I said I was afraid would happen...

Like flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, there's always anti-science people who believe capacitors don't do what capacitors do, and sometimes those who don't think that the law of conservation of energy exists. :lol:
Funny, but always frustrating when you have to go to THESE kind of lengths, because people can't learn anymore, and no matter how many breadcrumbs you leave for their own validation, you end up having to do all the legwork.

But this one will be cool. Hopefully finally this topic will be pushed far enough that whatever this religion is - _these writings of a sky paradise with 87 virgins where capacitors have no capacitance and electricity-based perpetual motion machines are real _- is finally at least pushed into the cult camp of false beliefs.
At least we can hope so.

I'm not getting the microphone angle though - there's no alternators (or capacitors) in microphones...?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I thought it was 72? Must be inflation to get to 87?

With the Covid19 record numbers in the US, jobs relocated to China, etc, all that is not surprising when a large percentage of the workforce is either anti science, or science and reasoning illiterate. Have access to a large population with a higher average IQ that works for less ¥ and are not conspiracy theory jockeys helps explain why jobs moved there.




geolemon said:


> ...
> I'm not getting the microphone angle though - there's no alternators (or capacitors) in microphones...?


[QUOTE="Sam Spade, post: 5822059]
... The bigger the better as long as you know how to use it? 🤣🤣🤣🍆🍆🍆
[/QUOTE]


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I thought it was 72? Must be inflation to get to 87?
> 
> With the Covid19 record numbers in the US, jobs relocated to China, etc, all that is not surprising when a large percentage of the workforce is either anti science, or science and reasoning illiterate. Have access to a large population with a higher average IQ that works for less ¥ and are not conspiracy theory jockeys helps explain why jobs moved there.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Show us your microphone holmz 🤣🤣🤣🍆🍆🥕🥕🍌🍌🌽🌽🥒🥒🍆🍆


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

geolemon said:


> Well I just wanted to preface with the basics in case this also devolved into a "caps don't do anything" thread. I don't think it's going to.
> 
> 320A alternator from a 120A alternator - the problem is that is going to make your horsepower. MPG, and acceleration all worse. None of that makes the car more fun to drive, and I'm not sure avoiding a little headlight dimming does either, when there's ways to at least dodge the drama. It's a little like cutting your toes off to fit into running shoes, if you are a runner.
> Electrical power isn't free - you only get more from making it harder to turn.
> ...


Great post Geolemon 

Fark there is so much to know about hi end car audio, in so many different fields of expertise in car audio, then let alone all the practical skills if you are going to do it yourself. ****! I'm going to get out all the details of my car's electrical system, the 2nd battery installed, and the three stereo 330 wpc rms into 4 ohms amps and get a crayon and do a big diagram and see if I can work it all out. Thank god most of the volume comes in the first 5 watts.

*"SPL competition is burping. You don't need a big alternator for that. And no one runs a competition box in a daily driver. "*
Hilarious, you'd like to think so wouldn't you. I met a guy Saturday, young guy manager of a Jaycar shop in Oz, electrical parts and stuff. We got to talking he didn't have what I wanted. He came out and we had a listen to my car, turbo diesel SUV stationwagon. Hertz mille 1650.3 legends in the front, 165.3s in the back doors. Under a false floor in the back two Hertz EBX F20.5 energy subs (8 inch active, 10 inch passive in a low profile sealed box, 93db sensitivity, 40-400hz) and three Hertz SPL show class AB HP 802 stereo amps 330 wpc into 4 ohms, 7.5 kg each, 100 amps max consumption into 1 ohm. Amps bought for SQ purposes not SPL purposes and cos I got all three at half price and if i'd gone for the same $$$ worth of mille class D I guessed it wouldn't sound as good. I've had great outcomes in home hifi with big 200WPC power amps into 8 ohms vs super expensive lower power integrated amps, so I figured it would apply to car audio too. And a helix ultra. Anyway proudly showing off all my watts......... and the sound, and the stealth install. .


















Him and his partner have 2 cars, their daily drives. That day she had the SQ car and he had the SPL comp car. An AU$2k camry insured for AU$6k cos it has AU$4k of SPL comp gear in the boot. 5 batteries. I think he said 6000 watts of amps. A massive sub box, can't remember if it was 1 or 2 subs. We jumped in. he burped it. It might have been 30-40 Hz? 125 db? car running and the battery voltmeter dropped like a stone till he stopped burping and all the shop windows in front of us stopped vibrating. It was ****ing hilarious. I don't understand the fascination, but it was impressive and funny. Don't know what class he competes in but he was currently 7th in Oz he was 1st a few years ago. I should have taken some pics.

No wonder they get out of the car when they compete. The burps go right through your body, you can feel it in your bowels I reckon you'd need an adult nappy if you sat in the car too often. Oh, then there is the hearing loss. And the flying glass when the windows blow out. Hilarious. Did I say it was hilarious LOL. 

*"Having voltage drop too low can even cause amp damage, as an amp will try to keep making power - voltage times amps. Voltage goes down, current goes up - and parts in the amp are designed to operate on the current that flows when voltage is between 12v and 14.4v.
So over time, not great."*

He was paranoid about the voltage drop not going too far, it was either below 12.5 or 11.5 as he said it would destroy the amps. Now I know why, thanks


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> ...
> No wonder they get out of the car when they compete. The burps go right through your body, you can feel it in your bowels I reckon you'd need an adult nappy if you sat in the car too often. Oh, then there is the hearing loss. And the flying glass when the windows blow out. Hilarious. Did I say it was hilarious LOL.
> ...


I am not sure I would need a microphone after the hearing loss?

And what is the point of shaking all of yesterdays curry out, and busting the window and upsetting the shop keeps and neighbours?

I suppose it is nice to signal the coolness, but I am self isolating anyhow.

Yeah a supercap would help, but I think I might just stick to SQ threads and stop mentioning that capacitor equations are well known and that they can allow one to understand what each size would give in regards to voltage drop.

Hence: I should probably bow out.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I am not sure I would need a microphone after the hearing loss?
> 
> And what is the point of shaking all of yesterdays curry out, and busting the window and upsetting the shop keeps and neighbours?
> 
> ...


I think we need as much real facts and science here as possible. And we can learn from SPL people. And be entertained by them.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I suppose it is nice to signal the coolness, but I am self isolating anyhow.


Don't be such a cynic. Charging through the gears on a back road doesn't impress anyone, but it sure is a hell of a lot of fun! A bunch of people probably look down their nose at such behavior. Foolhardy, wreckless, careless, selfish, waste of tires and gas. Sometimes we're too held up in our own notions of what we think other people should believe to enjoy things that are fun. 😇


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

opekone said:


> Don't be such a cynic. Charging through the gears on a back road doesn't impress anyone, but it sure is a hell of a lot of fun! A bunch of people probably look down their nose at such behavior. Foolhardy, wreckless, careless, selfish, waste of tires and gas. Sometimes we're too held up in our own notions of what we think other people should believe to enjoy things that are fun. 😇


So how fast does your car go in reverse opekone? Always a great fun test for a hire car


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

opekone said:


> Don't be such a cynic. Charging through the gears on a back road doesn't impress anyone, but it sure is a hell of a lot of fun! A bunch of people probably look down their nose at such behavior. Foolhardy, wreckless, careless, selfish, waste of tires and gas. Sometimes we're too held up in our own notions of what we think other people should believe to enjoy things that are fun. 😇


That behaviour usually seems more acceptable to me that a burnout at the traffic lights. 

But I did have a hoon behind me a couple of years ago with about 5 feet between us. He was in a something like an older Nissan Skyline with a big intercooler in the rear view mirror.
I think he was surprised when snapped out a quick turn, and I thought I lost him, until I noticed he just about mounted the opposite curb. He was about 100-150 meters back, when he finally straightened it up.
So then he roared up behind me I did another turn, with the same effect... and yet a third U'ey at a rondabout (small traffic circle).
I was maintaining a constant 36 mph (60 kph), except at the roundy I slowed to ~20 mph.

I gave him a bit of Holmz-skooling session, and it is not as easy doing a turn without trail braking, so that can be a challenge in a car that is not well setup.




Sam Spade said:


> So how fast does your car go in reverse opekone? Always a great fun test for a hire car


Even better is the reverse spin to straighten it up as a u turn method. Right outta fast-n-furious.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> That behaviour usually seems more acceptable to me that a burnout at the traffic lights.
> 
> But I did have a hoon behind me a couple of years ago with about 5 feet between us. He was in a something like an older Nissan Skyline with a big intercooler in the rear view mirror.
> I think he was surprised when snapped out a quick turn, and I thought I lost him, until I noticed he just about mounted the opposite curb. He was about 100-150 meters back, when he finally straightened it up.
> ...


so you aren't really a boring old fart Holmz


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Forever and Forever. This will be what All Aussies are like for me.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

imickey503 said:


> Forever and Forever. This will be what All Aussies are like for me.
> View attachment 269816


That's hilarious and has some truth to it. Like any stereotype. The SPL guy i met was a lot like that. Good natured larrakin. I really liked him and must send him an email.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> so you aren't really a boring old fart Holmz


I don't know about that, he was only doing 36 mph.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Regarding the subject of this thread, BigDWiz of Williston Audio uses a bank of super capacitors on his test bench setup.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ckirocz28 said:


> I don't know about that, he was only doing 36 mph.


Try going around right hand turns on a residential street with a 35 MPH speelimit at 35 MPH... the passengers are usually squealing over the tyres.

It is not as passive aggressive a brake checking, but it does usually get the tailgaters woken up.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

ckirocz28 said:


> Regarding the subject of this thread, BigDWiz of Williston Audio uses a bank of super capacitors on his test bench setup.


I'm skeptical of this in two ways-

1) I've seem him show his 6 battery power supply.

2) Caps on the power side do directly augment the power supply caps inside the amp. While there's strong truth that caps don't make amps make more power, it is still dynamically altering the amps performance - if that AD-1 averages power across time for any of the three tests it runs, certified, uncertified, and especially the brief burst test - then the capacitors could fill in enough power to impact those numbers.

Essentially, he wouldn't simply be testing "the amp", but "the amp + additional capacitance"

That being said - clearly he's also regulating voltage, so those caps could be isolated through a transformer - I'll see if he has a video describing his bench setup.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

geolemon said:


> I'm skeptical of this in two ways-
> 
> 1) I've seem him show his 6 battery power supply.
> 
> ...


Hey Geoleman, I'm not sure about Big D's testing setup, but I'm just curious if you believe that using caps would be "cheating"... or not giving true results ? Personally, I feel like its all fair. I mean, how many people really run 6 batteries in their car with these amps ? So wouldn't that be cheating too ? ...or should I say, not show true world results ? In any case, I just ordered my 500 farad bank of caps yesterday, and anxious to get those integrated into my setup.... although admittedly, somewhat nervous ! These things are kind of crazy  Unleash the lightening !


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Hey Geoleman, I'm not sure about Big D's testing setup, but I'm just curious if you believe that using caps would be "cheating"... or not giving true results ? Personally, I feel like its all fair. I mean, how many people really run 6 batteries in their car with these amps ? So wouldn't that be cheating too ? ...or should I say, not show true world results ?


Well, bear in mind I do have some electrical engineering education, although my career these days is specifically IT project implementation, with a specific specialty on Quality Assurance... And that does mean employing techniques that ensure valid test results.

Amps have capacitors inside, on the power supply side. So - would you consider it a fair test if you disassembled the amp, and on it's power supply side,b soldered in a bank of capacitors that increased the Farads by 10x, and you couldn't even put the bottom back on? Would that be a fair, representative test of what everyone can expect out of that amp? Or just a demonstration of what the amp can do if you beef things up on the power supply side?

There's not too much difference, really, putting a cap on parallel on the power wire, vs actually adding internal capacitance on the power supply side.

I'm sure he knows it too - especially with his relationship with Sam from Barevids.

So I'm more inclined to think the caps are behind a transformer... This is grey-area stuff because you want to control, but not manipulate, the variables-
On one hand you don't want your power supply running out of capacity - supply or transient - such that you artificially limit the amp.
On the other hand, you don't want to compensate for an amp's shortcomings.

That's why I'd like to see a video on that bench, otherwise it's speculation and assuming.



Fish Chris 2 said:


> In any case, I just ordered my 500 farad bank of caps yesterday, and anxious to get those integrated into my setup.... although admittedly, somewhat nervous ! These things are kind of crazy  Unleash the lightening !


Ooh yeah - here we go - I want to know what people's actual experiences are. Like I said - those numbers - hundreds of Farads - are ludicrously huge. 

So also - be freaking CAREFUL!
... You can weld with a charged 1F cap.
And if you have ever made the mistake of hooking up a discharged capacitor without charging it through a resistor, you know it can weld and discolor the screw and surface, wherever you had the misfortune of touching down. 

So - 500x more important for a 500F cap...
If the internal resistance IS actually low enough to be a real capacitor.
Which is precisely what I'm interested in.
...but still, don't try to hook that up without a resistor to initially charge it, then you can actually make the connection after its fully charged - there have to be articles with that detail. Depending on the resistor used, that can take less than a minute for a 1F cap. That's multiplied by 500 for what you have, so there may be some specific resistor recommended to balance safety but not take a day to charge?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

8 batteries and a large ass Bank of supercapacitors. 













I think if you're honest patreon, he has photos of his test setup


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

geolemon said:


> Well, bear in mind I do have some electrical engineering education, although my career these days is specifically IT project implementation, with a specific specialty on Quality Assurance... And that does mean employing techniques that ensure valid test results.
> 
> Amps have capacitors inside, on the power supply side. So - would you consider it a fair test if you disassembled the amp, and on it's power supply side,b soldered in a bank of capacitors that increased the Farads by 10x, and you couldn't even put the bottom back on? Would that be a fair, representative test of what everyone can expect out of that amp? Or just a demonstration of what the amp can do if you beef things up on the power supply side?
> 
> ...


Right on. So I didn't want it to sound like I was bashing on you for looking down upon that kind of test setup. I totally agree it's a grey area. 
But for my own setup, it's totally fair game 🙂 Yes, I will be super careful setting this capacitor bank up. I'm going to get my friend / ace mechanic in on it too. So there will be two of us to keep things in check. I feel like the big thing is going to be getting the voltage of the caps as close as humanly possible to that if my battery (at rest) because if its at all different, there is good going to be some really fast transfer, and that we don't want.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

geolemon said:


> Well, bear in mind I do have some electrical engineering education, although my career these days is specifically IT project implementation, with a specific specialty on Quality Assurance... And that does mean employing techniques that ensure valid test results.
> 
> Amps have capacitors inside, on the power supply side. So - would you consider it a fair test if you disassembled the amp, and on it's power supply side,b soldered in a bank of capacitors that increased the Farads by 10x, and you couldn't even put the bottom back on? Would that be a fair, representative test of what everyone can expect out of that amp? Or just a demonstration of what the amp can do if you beef things up on the power supply side?
> 
> ...


I'm actually starting to get my head around this so thanks geolemon and others.

Now I just need to decide if I would benefit from capacitors. I have three Hertz HP802 SPL - class AB Stereo Amplifier 330rms into 4 ohms. Max consumption 100 amp, damping factor 500 and they weigh 7.5 kg each. Passive cooling. Hertz say:

_"In order to deliver such extraordinarily high power, the power supply stage features 4 toroidal transformers, 8 - 2200 uF 105° Low ESR primary capacitors for a total of 17600Uf, 120A TO247 Mosfets and 4 - 3300uF secondary capacitors capable of 80V. "_

Data sheet here https://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/hertz_SPLShow_HP802_tech.pdf 

So the car is a Mitsubishi Challenger Turbo Diesel 4WD stationwagon. 90 amp alternator. Last time I got the battery replaced I got the heaviest duty one that would fit but don't have the details on me. It is a long vehicle and the amps are right at the back under a false floor. Adjacent to the amps my installer put a SSB DryCell AGM VRLA 12V 130Ah 1000 CCA - Cyclic Use Battery SSB DryCell HVT-86D AGM VRLA 12V 130Ah 1000 CCA - Cyclic Use Battery SSB DryCell HVT-86D AGM VRLA 12V 130Ah 1000 CCA - Cyclic Use Battery | Batteries Direct

*So would I benefit from capacitors and if so how much capacity?* The rest of the system is:

Helix Ultra DSP
front speakers Hertz Mille MLK 1650.3 legend -2Way
rear speakers Hertz Mille MLK 165.3 legend - 2Way
subs are two Hertz EBXF20.5 - 8" Enclosed Subwoofer boxes wth 10" passive drivers
One amp is running the LHS, one the RHS and one the two subs in paralell.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> I'm actually starting to get my head around this so thanks geolemon and others.
> 
> Now I just need to decide if I would benefit from capacitors. I have three Hertz HP802 SPL - class AB Stereo Amplifier 330rms into 4 ohms. Max consumption 100 amp, damping factor 500 and they weigh 7.5 kg each. Passive cooling. Hertz say:
> 
> ...


Well hey Sam, I'm going to find out 🙂 I'm really hoping it adds a lot more capacitance to my amps capabilities, but even if the amp already has all it needs built in, I'm pretty positive it will stop all my dash lights from dimming with the beat. My headlights would dim as well... But quit doing that ever since I replaced them with low energy consumption LED's.
One things for sure, I'll be easily able to tell if it makes a difference on kick drums and other fast bass hits, by watching the led clip indicator. I know how hard I have to push it now, and at what volume level, so im hoping I see an obvious difference 🙂


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

That's really interesting FC. 

One thing that really interests me is if the clip indicator changes. So is the clipping due to inadequate power, or is it the output stages being pushed to their limits. I used to sell home hifi and the biggest mistake people made was always spending too little on the amps and too much on the speakers, and not getting balanced performance. I had this lecture that a small amp pushed too hard to clipping would kill speakers in an instant, but a big amp with clean power driving speakers past their limits would result in distortion, but you can turn that down if you recognise it before frying your speakers usually. Most people understood but it didn't always get them to spend more on the amps. 

I don't have the problems you do but I do have two really good batteries and my speakers seem quite efficient. And I haven't got the bass ramped up. I do need to do some more tuning though. I've got a great system at home with floor standing Dalisuite 3.5 speakers that are 92db efficiency I think and are -3db at 32 hz, and a Rotel RB1080 200wpc into 8 ohms power amp. It's a complete beast. And I have some Audeze LCD3 planar headphones that are basically flat from 20 to 20,000 and a Burson Conductor 3x Reference preamp that has a DAC and a 7.5wpc class A headphone amp. Plus I get out and see a lot of live music. And while I can play music really loud at home my last preamp was a musical fidelity nuvista that didn't even have tone controls. The Burson might I have to dive into it's menus, the manual isn't great. But anyway so I think my tuning expectations for my car system are influenced by the sound of my home system and headphones and what I see live and that's pretty flat. Although now I have a MTK1 I'm going to fire that up with REW inside and see how flat my speakers are and what they actually do at 32hz. 

Anyway I don't think I ramp the bass up as much as lots of other car audio nuts. My amps running my splits are always far hotter than the one running the subs. Oh and my installer dialed back the gain on the amps as they are basically double the rated output of my speakers continuous rating. So it may be that I don't need caps as iv'e basically got more watts than I need on tap. It still goes unbelievably loud though and no distortion. The door mid/bass speakers were making the door trim vibrate so much I was getting banging noises so we changed the crossovers higher so the subs do more of the work. But the smack of a bass guitar being plucked really smashes out of the doors still. 

Plus the electrics on a turbo diesel 4WD are pretty heavy duty. So maybe i'm sorted. I can play for long periods of time with the engine off and don't get much voltage drop. 

I do wonder how many of these types of problems are caused by amps that are too small. Clearly your symptoms point to not enough power availability like the headlights dimming etc. But it will be really interesting to see if your clipping indicator behaves differently. Hopefully it does but if not you might need more or bigger amps. 

I have no experience with class D but I know that class AB have a wider dynamic range for the same RMS rating. But class D is much more efficient, smaller footprint etc. Swings and roundabouts. What do you have? That makes me wonder if caps are more important for class ab or class d amps. 

My hertz amps are great but If I go active ill need 4 more channels and have to buy another amp or if I went for new amps the new Helix C one and C four are completely insane. 








HELIX C ONE


1-channel high-end amplifier with integrated, active crossover and 1 Ohm stability




www.audiotec-fischer.de












HELIX C FOUR


4-channel high-end amplifier with integrated, active crossover




www.audiotec-fischer.de





The AF distributor here says that they are using a lot of the technology from Brax and they are so good that they are cannibalising Brax amp sales here in Oz. A lot like the helix ultra being 90% of the Brax DSP at around a quarter of the price. They aren't cheap, but they have a damping factor of 1000+ and i've never seen that on an amp before. I'm sure the watts output ratings are really conservative too. I know someone with them and they are very very happy. 

In home audio Rotel and NAD were the two brands in Oz where you got the most power for your dollar, and seriously good dynamic range. My Rotel is 30 yo and it has thermal and clipping shutdown too. They weren't quite as refined sounding as the hi end luxman, marantz or nakamichi, but they still sounded awesome. I expect there are car amps that give you the best power for your dollar but I don't know enough about car audio to say. It would make a good thread topic if you could get past all the geniuses that think all amps sound the same


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Your system sounds really nice. I'm sure it has fantastic SQ.

But now, when you said I might just need bigger amps..... Well, my subwoofer is rated at 1650 wts RMS, and my mono amp is 2500 RMS.... Tested at about 2630 ....

And again, I don't know if I've ever seen it clip on a continuous bass note. It's always only little red blinks on sharp, quick kick drums....


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Well hey Sam, I'm going to find out  I'm really hoping it adds a lot more capacitance to my amps capabilities, but even if the amp already has all it needs built in, I'm pretty positive it will stop all my dash lights from dimming with the beat.


Just to set expectations properly - again caps don't hold voltage levels, in fact they require voltage level to change, to either discharge and supply current, or to charge and store current.

But they do slow those voltage drops - and especially with these ludicrous hundreds of farads claims - they just might have enough current discharge with just the slightest start of a voltage drop, that they really would nearly entirely cover those fast hits:



Fish Chris 2 said:


> My headlights would dim as well... But quit doing that ever since I replaced them with low energy consumption LED's.
> One things for sure, I'll be easily able to tell if it makes a difference on kick drums and other fast bass hits, by watching the led clip indicator. I know how hard I have to push it now, and at what volume level, so im hoping I see an obvious difference


So you've also eliminated a big power draw, and every little bit helps.

With regular 1F caps, the benefit was that they would at least slow the drop to the point the battery could respond, so it would never drop below the 12.x volt level of the battery - and that alone wouldn't STOP headlight dimming, but it would greatly reduce the drama.

Now, that voltage drop could be an extremely slow fade, only the longest test-tone-like bass tracks finally reaching the battery.

Dare to dream, I'm interested for sure.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Your system sounds really nice. I'm sure it has fantastic SQ.
> 
> But now, when you said I might just need bigger amps..... Well, my subwoofer is rated at 1650 wts RMS, and my mono amp is 2500 RMS.... Tested at about 2630 ....
> 
> And again, I don't know if I've ever seen it clip on a continuous bass note. It's always only little red blinks on sharp, quick kick drums....


Didn't mean to diss your amps  I didn't actually look to see what they were and they are probably a brand i don't have experience with. And i didn't intend to start a pissing contest. I was just rolling ideas around in my head about possible causes.

It sounds like you have as many watts as you need based on the amp tests. 2500. Fark thats more than my 3 amps together and thats 22.5 kg or 50 pounds. Thats imperial pounds im not sure if thats the same as you americans use . I wonder if there are other tricks you could use to get more volume? Sub box design, speaker efficiency..... Maybe messing around with crossover points and slopes and more overlap at the frequencies you want. My splits go to 60 hz so i can get more bass by overlapping low xover freq on them with hi xover freq on the subs. But then when i turn it up to 11 with some tracks the door trim vibrates and the speakers can bang against the dynamat lining the inside of the panels

Actually why dont you put the sub in the front passenger seat? The inverse square law will guarantee you more volume 🤣🤣🤣

My sq is good and the more i learn about carfi tuning and stuff the better it gets. It's also so loud it can make my ears hurt but i think the bass might be a bit lean on the current tune. I need to check the calibration curve the installer used.

I noticed something interesting today. My DAP was flat and i had a new cd so i put it in the head unit. Sounded great. Bit bright and fatiguing at hi volume. Charged the dap at work and did some A/B testing on the way home. Flac files cd quality on the DAP converted into SPDIF coax directly into the DSP sounds better than the cd player and can play it at a higher volume without it getting harsh and fatiguing


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Your system sounds really nice. I'm sure it has fantastic SQ.
> 
> But now, when you said I might just need bigger amps..... Well, my subwoofer is rated at 1650 wts RMS, and my mono amp is 2500 RMS.... Tested at about 2630 ....
> 
> And again, I don't know if I've ever seen it clip on a continuous bass note. It's always only little red blinks on sharp, quick kick drums....


oh and i did say "Clearly your symptoms point to not enough power availability like the headlights dimming etc."


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

geolemon said:


> Just to set expectations properly - again caps don't hold voltage levels, in fact they require voltage level to change, to either discharge and supply current, or to charge and store current.
> 
> But they do slow those voltage drops - and especially with these ludicrous hundreds of farads claims - they just might have enough current discharge with just the slightest start of a voltage drop, that they really would nearly entirely cover those fast hits:
> 
> ...


And ya' know, its funny, while a LOT of people (most ?) bashed on those 1 or 2 farad caps, I always felt like they might have helped me a bit. I really do feel like a big bank of super caps of 567 farads, is most definitely going to help. At the very least, it will reduce the strain on my electrical system.

And remember Geo, before my new alternator, I might have experienced a slow fade on long bass notes, but by increasing my alternator output by 250%, I really don't see that anymore either  I really feel like the last piece of my electrical puzzle is being able to provide "quick enough" power, rather than, "enough power".


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> Didn't mean to diss your amps  I didn't actually look to see what they were and they are probably a brand i don't have experience with. And i didn't intend to start a pissing contest. I was just rolling ideas around in my head about possible causes.
> 
> It sounds like you have as many watts as you need based on the amp tests. 2500. Fark thats more than my 3 amps together and thats 22.5 kg or 50 pounds. Thats imperial pounds im not sure if thats the same as you americans use . I wonder if there are other tricks you could use to get more volume? Sub box design, speaker efficiency..... Maybe messing around with crossover points and slopes and more overlap at the frequencies you want. My splits go to 60 hz so i can get more bass by overlapping low xover freq on them with hi xover freq on the subs. But then when i turn it up to 11 with some tracks the door trim vibrates and the speakers can bang against the dynamat lining the inside of the panels
> 
> ...


Its all good. They are not top teir amps, but they are pretty solid, Especially my Mono Amp. Being a fairluy new company, they are trying hard to build a good rep, and so far, doing really well. I paid $300 for my mono amp... but had I jumped on them a year ago, I could have gotten it for $200 !








Wolfram Audio C-2400.1 Class D Monoblock


THE NUMBER ONE SOURCE FOR ALPHARD AUDIO, AMPERE AUDIO, CERTIFIED BASSHEAD, CRESCENDO AUDIO, HORN BLASTERS, INCRIMINATOR AUDIO, MECHMAN, SKAR AUDIO, SUNDOWN AUDIO, XS POWER and SMD Products. Lowest prices, fastest shipping and the best customer service in the industry. #Down4SoundDifference




www.down4soundshop.com










I definitely could get a couple more Db's using a conventional ported sub enclosure, but I am just loving my setup with the 18" sub, and two 15" passive radiators. Never built a nicer sounding box. It plays both 20hz bass with authority, and also all the way up as high as I want to cross it over. I actually turned that up to about 120 hz yesterday.

So, speaking of loud, my setup gets pretty darn loud... I mean, loud enough for daily listening, with zero clipping. But a couple days ago, I jumped in my truck, fired it up, and I was like, why is my stereo not playing ? I thought it was my volume... so as I started to increase the volume, I realized, "Oh crap, it was already on 30 (out of 35) so about the time I realize this, I was at 34 or 35, and I start trying to turn it back down. But right then the blue tooth connection finally kicks in and Holy $#@#$ ! That chit was painful ! But also some hard core clipping  Then I got all paranoid thinking I might have damaged something.... But I got lucky. Everything was still good.

Anyway, its not like my system is terribly quiet...... I've just been on this quest to get the maximum benefit out of the system, with the most rock solid electrical system I can afford to build.

Then to get that DSP in (sitting on my dresser for 2 months) and tuned.... And a new, "properly functioning" HU.... (ordering tomorrow)


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## humandrummachine (May 17, 2010)

You should find someone with a good o-scope and graph your voltage drop with no cap, a 1-5 farad cap, and then your super cap bank. All with the same song and and volume. That would really put all of this to rest and be really interesting.

I'm wondering with your big alternator, do you really need a super cap? Or just a larger regular cap to soak up (filter) the quick voltage drops


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

humandrummachine said:


> You should find someone with a good o-scope and graph your voltage drop with no cap, a 1-5 farad cap, and then your super cap bank. All with the same song and and volume. That would really put all of this to rest and be really interesting.
> 
> I'm wondering with your big alternator, do you really need a super cap? Or just a larger regular cap to soak up (filter) the quick voltage drops


Wish I could find one close by. That really would answer all questions. One thing I'm confident about is "I don't need" another battery / more storage. Like I've said, I think a regular 1-5 farad capacitor "might" do it, but I'm a lot more confident in a 567 farad capacitor, and surprisingly, a top quality 1-5 farad cap, can cost as much as the 567 farad bank that I have on the way. BTW, my super capacitor bank + $30 expedited shipping, was only $180.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Wish I could find one close by. That really would answer all questions.


Here is a NEET way of doing this with simple tools you already have. Those with newer canbus will get almost Instant readings. You can tweak this in your APP on your phone.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

geolemon said:


> ...
> With regular 1F caps, the benefit was that they would at least slow the drop to the point the battery could respond, so it would never drop below the 12.x volt level of the battery - and that alone wouldn't STOP headlight dimming, but it would greatly reduce the drama.
> ...


I thought/think that it is more like allowing time for the alternator to respond?

And I am pretty sure that the battery will not hold the voltage at 12.5V... the output voltage will be dependent upon the output current?

It should be pretty similar to hitting the starter... which is also why the AGMs and deep cycle batteries are not normally used as starter batteries.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

imickey503 said:


> Here is a NEET way of doing this with simple tools you already have. Those with newer canbus will get almost Instant readings. You can tweak this in your APP on your phone.


Cool ! I got some canibus ! Oh wait 😄 lol
Ok now seriously though, im a dummy.... A canbus ? How do I access this ? And my truck is an 08', so I don't know if this is new enough to give me really fast readings, but that's critical as I already have an aftermarket voltage gage, and can confirm my voltage is not going below 13.8... usually not below 14 on a long term basis... or averaged out a little, whatever you want to call it.
I'd like to see somebody doing this same thing, with a newer canbus, where it showed instant bass drops from individual kick drum hits and such. If my electrical system has any weakness, this is where it's at.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Holmz said:


> I thought/think that it is more like allowing time for the alternator to respond?
> 
> And I am pretty sure that the battery will not hold the voltage at 12.5V... the output voltage will be dependent upon the output current?
> 
> It should be pretty similar to hitting the starter... which is also why the AGMs and deep cycle batteries are not normally used as starter batteries.


I've considered this, but I think for the starter, even if it took .2 or .4 seconds to ramp up, that should still be acceptable. Whereas, with a kick drum, if that juice is not available in .01 second, it's already missed it. I'm sure these numbers are not accurate, but just to make a point.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

OK I was pretty impressed


Fish Chris 2 said:


> Its all good. They are not top teir amps, but they are pretty solid, Especially my Mono Amp. Being a fairluy new company, they are trying hard to build a good rep, and so far, doing really well. I paid $300 for my mono amp... but had I jumped on them a year ago, I could have gotten it for $200 !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One thing that has been absent from this thread is discussion on the differences between class AB and Class D amps. I suspect that there is a pretty good chance that the optimal electrical system setup for class AB and class D could be different. After all, the two types of amps work very differently and have different dynamic characteristics.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> OK I was pretty impressed
> 
> 
> One thing that has been absent from this thread is discussion on the differences between class AB and Class D amps. I suspect that there is a pretty good chance that the optimal electrical system setup for class AB and class D could be different. After all, the two types of amps work very differently and have different dynamic characteristics.


That's true Sam. I'm running both.... A 150 x 4 class AB, and the 2400 x 1 class D. An interesting thought just crossed my mind... I've been talking about the negative effects on fast bass notes, like kick drums and such. But when you think about it, if my voltage is dipping way down, even for a fraction of a second, that's starving the class AB 4 ch for that same micro second also.

I think every piece of electronics in the stereo system, and the rest of the truck for that matter, will benefit from stable voltage.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

re getting more volume, it might be worth playing some of your fave tracks with the sub amp turned off. It can be deceptive sometimes that things that you think are coming from the sub might not be. The DSP will give you a lot more control over that too.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> I've considered this, but I think for the starter, even if it took .2 or .4 seconds to ramp up, that should still be acceptable. Whereas, with a kick drum, if that juice is not available in .01 second, it's already missed it. I'm sure these numbers are not accurate, but just to make a point.


No...
You do not *know* that. You could say you believe it but knowledge requires some ability to quantify it and ability to show proof to others.

1) I said that the battery voltage drops when the starter cranks.
2) And I also said that the alternator take some number of milliseconds to respond.

We can speculate all we want, but a graph of voltage versus time is needed to move from an opinion towards facts.
Someone pointed out an iPhone app...

I would also suspect that the type of second battery maybes a difference in amperage delivery... which is fairly well documented in the literature.

And an aside, one could put a diode between the headlights and a headlight capacitor.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Its all good. They are not top teir amps, but they are pretty solid, Especially my Mono Amp. Being a fairluy new company, they are trying hard to build a good rep, and so far, doing really well. I paid $300 for my mono amp... but had I jumped on them a year ago, I could have gotten it for $200 !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok I'm a bit disappointed you haven't considered my passenger seat sub option Chris. If you halve the distance between you and the sub you get four times the volume. The inverse square law is a real help in situations like this. Actually if you took the passenger seat out you'd get an extra bonus. Sitting on the sub box with the vibrations it would be like a giant built in sex toy. You could warm your dates up on the way to dinner or the movies 🤣🤣🤣


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

OK I've got another excellent idea. You get most of your volume in the first few watts. Definitely the first 10%. Thats both most of the decibels aka SPL and also most of the percieved volume cos those two things aren't exactly equal. 

So you have 2500 watts and 1 subwoofer. If you built another subwoofer the same and hooked it up to the amp in paralell you'd have 1250 watts per sub. But that's going to get you almost double the bass SPL and volume. Plus in paralell you'd halve the impedence to the amp according to my dodgy maths. So lower impedance gets you more watts from your amp for free. I reckon thats the most effective way to get more bass. Still do the super caps stuff and the electrics. But 2 subs i think that would work well.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> ... So lower impedance gets you more watts from your amp for free. I reckon thats the most effective way to get more bass. Still do the super caps stuff and the electrics. But 2 subs i think that would work well.


The output watts go from 1250 to 2500, or 2500 to 5000, or the smoke comes out.

Unless one hooks them up in series and then wattage gets halved, and goes down 3dB... but the 3dB for the extra box is free.
So it costs space volume.

Going to a ported box from a sealed is mostly free, and volume doesn't increase too much.

But Chris is already running a ported box...
And holds memebership #0002 of *Team PR*.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Ok check your impedences chris with someone whos good at maths. Otherwise it might be free smoke. Maybe my sub seat is still the best idea 🤣🤣🤣


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Holmz said:


> No...
> You do not *know* that. You could say you believe it but knowledge requires some ability to quantify it and ability to show proof to others.
> 
> 1) I said that the battery voltage drops when the starter cranks.
> ...


Hmmm. Okay. But again, my headlights have never flickered, ever since I went from old school halogens, to LED's. It's my dash lights that do that. Now obviously I'm experiencing a voltage drop. How low, or whether or not it "only" affects the dash lights, I'm not sure. But I'm fixing to find out.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Holmz said:


> The output watts go from 1250 to 2500, or 2500 to 5000, or the smoke comes out.
> 
> Unless one hooks them up in series and then wattage gets halved, and goes down 3dB... but the 3dB for the extra box is free.
> So it costs space volume.
> ...


You guys talking about my specific subwoofer setup, as I have said many times, I've built approximately 30 enclosures. Mostly ported, but 2 or 3 sealed. For everything from 8"s to 18"s. (my other 18" was way back, and it sounded like garbage) Every sealed box I've built sucked, and was not near loud enough.... Which is weird, as what could be easier to build and calculate ?
I guess I've gotten a little better at enclosure building, as the last 3 or 4 have sounded really good. Oh, even a couple ported with two 15"s mounted isobarically.
But again, this latest enclosure for the 18" with the two 15" passive radiators, is the best sounding enclosure I've ever built, for everything from 20hz to 120hz.... Or higher if I wanted to do that.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> You guys talking about my specific subwoofer setup, as I have said many times, I've built approximately 30 enclosures. Mostly ported, but 2 or 3 sealed. For everything from 8"s to 18"s. (my other 18" was way back, and it sounded like garbage) Every sealed box I've built sucked, and was not near loud enough.... Which is weird, as what could be easier to build and calculate ?
> I guess I've gotten a little better at enclosure building, as the last 3 or 4 have sounded really good. Oh, even a couple ported with two 15"s mounted isobarically.
> But again, this latest enclosure for the 18" with the two 15" passive radiators, is the best sounding enclosure I've ever built, for everything from 20hz to 120hz.... Or higher if I wanted to do that.


Hey i just said have 2 😄


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> Hey i just said have 2 😄


I could probably squeeze 2 of my current subwoofer setup into my truck  But at that point, it would probably work better to just put a wall behind my front seats.... which btw, I have daydreamed a LOT about. But I have quite a bit of work, just to get my current ideas finished..... and after enjoying that for 6 months or a year, I might have to start thinking about some totally custom door panels, with all my mid bass up there... rearranging of my mids / highs... etc. Where does it ever end ?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> You guys talking about my specific subwoofer setup, as I have said many times, ...


Yeah.
I was pointing out that add an extra sub is not "free".




Fish Chris 2 said:


> ... Where does it ever end ?


I would put it to you that after doing 30 boxes and ending up with the beta result being the 18" with 2x 15" PRs, that you have demonstrated that you have the best box that are capable of so far.
Secondly... if everyone knows you location from a minute away, then it would also suggest that you may not need additional SPL.

Basically it seem like you are done. Namely; it sounds good, and it has has plenty of power. What more do you need? Or in what way does the system not align with the goals for the system?

In Sam's case there is likely a goal of needing room in the vehicle for carting other gear around. So a set of under the seat boxes, seem to meet the goal for him.

We can chin scratch first world problems of subwoofers, but if you are not done now, then what exactly is lacking?


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Holmz said:


> Yeah.
> I was pointing out that add an extra sub is not "free".
> 
> 
> ...


Well, if my new HU, the DSP, and the capacitor bank all go in and work out well, I guess, I'd really like to have those custom doors, with my mid bass up front... Which is not as important to me as the stuff I'm doing now.... But it would look cool, and, for what it's worth, would allow me to get that sound stage right up front and centered.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Try going around right hand turns on a residential street with a 35 MPH speelimit at 35 MPH... the passengers are usually squealing over the tyres.
> 
> It is not as passive aggressive a brake checking, but it does usually get the tailgaters woken up.


It was a joke.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> I'm skeptical of this in two ways-
> 
> 1) I've seem him show his 6 battery power supply.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call it cheating if he uses the capacitor bank on all of the amps, also the caps probably somewhat make up for not having a constant resupply of power (alternator).


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

ckirocz28 said:


> I wouldn't call it cheating if he uses the capacitor bank on all of the amps, also the caps probably somewhat make up for not having a constant resupply of power (alternator).


 Well - I know what you are saying, and that's my point. I can see it either way. 
I never did try to track down that bench setup video...
I'm not saying he's intentionally cheating - but bear in mind again, not only am I a 30 year veteran audio geek, but I'm also a 25 year plus IT consultant and currently a QA lead specifically. 
So my brain is definitely unfortunately wired to be cynical. 

In QA, it's very important to ensure you not only cover all relevant test scenarios (and I have to say, as an audiophile QA guy - I'm a little disappointed that most videos are "amp dyno - yep, makes power!"), and that your testing is accurately representative of real world usage. If you don't prepare test cases that accurately reflect (and cover) real world usage, and don't have a test environment that accurately resembles real world environment, then your testing isn't good... 
It matters to me, because if code gets deployed into production, or is used on a client site and they report a problem in production - that's the QA guy's fault for not identifying that.

So, my questioning whether the test rig is inadvertently artificially influencing the amp performance comes from there.
I do TOTALLY agree that the test bench should hold the voltage constant, in supply to the amp. That isn't cheating.

But like I said - you can't disassemble an amp, wire in tons of extra farads of capacitance, test it, and claim that's how an unmodified amp will perform... even if it is on the power supply side... and even if having a bank of supercaps outside the amp chassis, on the positive lead basically does the same thing. That's where it becomes "grey area" to me. I get that it's just capacitance on the power supply side, just saying it's not purely isolating the performance of the amp - unless like I said, maybe the capacitors are on the other side of a transformer. Even then, yeah, I hear what you are going to say - that's just a transformer, it's transparent other than the voltage level scaling things. So probably not a problem - but just still makes me think that these test benches are things worthy of their own videos, so that viewers can understand the test conditions.

One of these days I'll remember to look for one. He's a good guy, his partnering with Sam shows that he's clearly not out to try to fool anyone. I'd just love to see the details of his rig.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> Well - I know what you are saying, and that's my point. I can see it either way.
> I never did try to track down that bench setup video...
> I'm not saying he's intentionally cheating - but bear in mind again, not only am I a 30 year veteran audio geek, but I'm also a 25 year plus IT consultant and currently a QA lead specifically.
> So my brain is definitely unfortunately wired to be cynical.
> ...


Why not ask him for details, or better yet, a video about it? I'm sure you're not the only one interested in it.


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

geolemon said:


> Well - I know what you are saying, and that's my point. I can see it either way.
> I never did try to track down that bench setup video...
> I'm not saying he's intentionally cheating - but bear in mind again, not only am I a 30 year veteran audio geek, but I'm also a 25 year plus IT consultant and currently a QA lead specifically.
> So my brain is definitely unfortunately wired to be cynical.
> ...


Hey Geo, I totally get what your saying. Probably not very relavent for most car stereo setups.
But then again, hopefully here really soon, his power supply with super capacitors "will be real world for me" 🙂


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Hey Geo, I totally get what your saying. Probably not very relavent for most car stereo setups.
> But then again, hopefully here really soon, his power supply with super capacitors "will be real world for me"


Haha - for sure!
And please DO tell us when you get that.
For the price, I'm pretty intrigued myself - even being more of a "do more with less power" kind of a guy.
Those ratings just seem - well - unbelievable. So I'd love to know if it is.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Have you got the caps in chris? Or distracted by new build?


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> Have you got the caps in chris? Or distracted by new build?


Haven't got them yet.... And tomorrow 4th of July stuff, then next day, back to work.

Kind of anxious though. Getting stir crazy.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Haven't got them yet.... And tomorrow 4th of July stuff, then next day, back to work.
> 
> Kind of anxious though. Getting stir crazy.


Anxious about the caps? 

And work. That's good isn't it? As opposed to being unemployed?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

PM me if you want. Ive got plenty of time to help mitigate stir crazy


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> Anxious about the caps?
> 
> And work. That's good isn't it? As opposed to being unemployed?


Both !
I mean I'd rather just play.... But it costs $ to play.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Both !
> I mean I'd rather just play.... But it costs $ to play.


Playing with yourself is free. 🤣🍆🤣🍆🤣


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> Playing with yourself is free. 🤣🍆🤣🍆🤣


Okay, true  lol


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> Well - I know what you are saying, and that's my point. I can see it either way.
> I never did try to track down that bench setup video...
> I'm not saying he's intentionally cheating - but bear in mind again, not only am I a 30 year veteran audio geek, but I'm also a 25 year plus IT consultant and currently a QA lead specifically.
> So my brain is definitely unfortunately wired to be cynical.
> ...


Found BigDWiz's test bench setup.

4 XSPower D1400 14 volt batteries
48 Maxwell 2.6 volt 2600 farad Ultracapacitors arranged in 8 banks of 6

Found in the Wolfram Audio W3000.1 amplifier review at 2:51-3:03 and again at 6:00.


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## deadrx7conv (Aug 25, 2010)

What balancing protection circuit is used on that 6x8?


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

deadrx7conv said:


> What balancing protection circuit is used on that 6x8?


Don't have the slightest clue.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

deadrx7conv said:


> What balancing protection circuit is used on that 6x8?


As you get more caps you can arrange them in banks of high and low in parallel to effectively balance them...
and also add a level of protection incase a single cap went bad... that’s why people who use massive cap banks don’t generally use any for mm of balancing board... it doesn’t protect against shorts and the caps should all be checked individually very regularly to identify bad caps


balance boards as they are called are not really ‘balance‘ boards unless you use the caps at 16.2v all the time, they only do something when the caps approach 2.7v, they don’t bleed anything off at 2.4v or balance anything... they are useful to bleed current off via some surface mount resistors when getting to 2.7v but I’m dubious as to how they would do if a cap went short circuit and 16.2v was shared with five caps as thats 3.24v a cap, I’m not sure how long it would bleed the extra current off... it would be 1a over two surface mount resistors...

I am toying with getting the leds on the balance boards moved off board to the dash so if any ever light up it signals me that something is wrong (the leds on the boards come on when the transistor is bleeding of current... that’s also how I know they don’t do anything below 2.68v 👍🏼

there are other boards about with what’s called a sab (super cap automatic balancer) transistor... these are made in various voltages... these are more active at lower voltages

For example they will bleed more current off as the voltage goes up

so a 2.7v

1ma at 2.4v, 10ma at 2.5v, 100ma at 2.6v, and 1000ma at 2.7v

so they are very progressive in there mode of operation and will be way more effective than my current ‘balance boards’ and will help keep individual caps at the correct voltages way better and are like four tiers of the simple circuits and will bleed off more current as the target voltage approaches and for me would be a lot more efficient at keeping caps balanced

these are my boards...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

dumdum said:


> As you get more caps you can arrange them in banks of high and low in parallel to effectively balance them...
> and also add a level of protection incase a single cap went bad... that’s why people who use massive cap banks don’t generally use any for mm of balancing board... it doesn’t protect against shorts and the caps should all be checked individually very regularly to identify bad caps
> 
> 
> ...



Where did you get those caps?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Selkec said:


> Where did you get those caps?


China, fakes, Maxwell don’t make 3000f anymore since 2013


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

dumdum said:


> China, fakes, Maxwell don’t make 3000f anymore since 2013


but they work fine right? Doesn’t matter to me who makes them lol. They are all made in China most likely.
Did you get those off eBay? Is there a reason you have balance boards on some and bars on others?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Selkec said:


> but they work fine right? Doesn’t matter to me who makes them lol. They are all made in China most likely.
> Did you get those off eBay? Is there a reason you have balance boards on some and bars on others?


They all have bars on (some on the other side) the balance bars fit opposite the bars and do two caps each... hence three boards, you can see the wire coming off the board down to the link bar at the other end, and yes they are 3000f as I have measured them 👍🏼


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## Fish Chris 2 (Dec 18, 2019)

Selkec said:


> but they work fine right? Doesn’t matter to me who makes them lol. They are all made in China most likely.
> Did you get those off eBay? Is there a reason you have balance boards on some and bars on others?


Actually, they are all made in China. Because of environmental regs they couldn't be made in the US, even if someone wanted to


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## adi77 (Apr 24, 2021)

I'm installing a capacitor bank in the trunk for my audio system. I already installed a cut off switch. Do I need any other fuses besides the one next to the battery?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

adi77 said:


> I'm installing a capacitor bank in the trunk for my audio system. I already installed a cut off switch. Do I need any other fuses besides the one next to the battery?


You may want something like a 100W globe in there on a push button?
But some alligator clips on a 100w globe would be fine for charging it before you insert the fuse or throw the breaker.

It depends if you are running the cut off switch often or not.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Dup


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

well, my personal exp with a 500F supper cap , and doing some Diy hacks on various ways to make/improvise caps (use a battery booster=cheep) vs a 2ed battery ... caps are a band-aid for most people but i highly recommend it to stop voltage drop's to the Cars computer/components .. 

when do you need it? - you need a cap when your out-put amperage does not meet your sound system draw (800wats = 60amp) the CCA specs should be included but only work if you can keep the battery topped off- 

to maintain max amperage to speakers, - if your system draws 70 amps and your battery only puts out 60amps = lower voltage to amplifier ....

so if your alternator puts out an excess of 60amps and your battery is 60amps discharge .. and your systems draw 70amps = max power for a limited time..(slowly kills/drains your battery) 

in reality .. a supper cap is for the non-bass boomer's - it can recharge during the low draw of amps and output a high amount for a short burst of subwoofer boom..( alt makes 60amps 60amp battery) 80% of the time sound system is pulling 50 amps but when the subs hit its pulling 125amps - instead of taking from the battery - dropping voltage/.. it uses the cap - then recharges waiting for the next boom -without a cap it would slowly drain your battery like example 2

<i fall into the non-bass-boomer that can benefit/fix isshues> I still would recommend 2ed battery over a CAP ..(my system is around 1500RMS wats at max draw ( 110 amps draw at 100%effent, of that the 700 RMS is subs -(50 amps ish) a cheap 50$ SLA battery can push more than 70amps <i recommend mighty-max Viper's bat's> and is smaller than my 500F cap's,<can even be smaller with Lithion batteries

do you need a cap- NO you can use a standard battery- that can output over the system needs (you can add 2 batteries output amps to = system draw) keeping voltage up and not frying your ECU 

if your draw more amps than you you can put into the system= noting will save your battery ... bigger alt is needed .. or some solar pannels and only play your system in the daytime.. all a cap will do is make it so you won't know your battery is dead until you turn it off, then try to restart it ...

if you suffer from this issue - it's best to use the CAP as an emergency start (put in parallel - with a relay - removes from the electrical system when the car is off, set a switch to connect CAP to jump-start car (like a starter battery) .. or be stranded - best use case ...


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> ...
> so if your alternator puts out an excess of 60amps and your battery is 60amps discharge .. and your systems draw 70amps = max power for a limited time..(slowly kills/drains your battery)
> ...


The alternator puts out between zero and its max amperage.
And secondly, it does not do that at the speed of light... It takes time for the circuitry to respond to a current pull. So we should assume that some alternators and their controllers have some time required to "spool up".

In the olden days people used big regulated amps to store enough energy inside the amp to meet it needs. It seems like these days many amplifiers rely on the electrical system to pulse in enough current to maintain whatever output the amplifier is asked to drive.

Those regulated amps, and every other non regulated amplifier, have capacitors in them to store charge. It is not a new concept. The caps have to live on the 30-50V amplifier rails, or they have to live on the 12V car side... Or they have to live in both places. 

Luckily J.C. Maxwell, and others, figured out much of how this stuff works... And they handed that knowledge down to us. And we no longer need to use opinions, but rather we can use equations.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> The alternator puts out between zero and its max amperage.
> And secondly, it does not do that at the speed of light... It takes time for the circuitry to respond to a current pull. So we should assume that some alternators and their controllers have some time required to "spool up".
> 
> In the olden days people used big regulated amps to store enough energy inside the amp to meet it needs. It seems like these days many amplifiers rely on the electrical system to pulse in enough current to maintain whatever output the amplifier is asked to drive.
> ...


i was trying to give a - newbie over-view (you never draw max amps - well its hard to with dynamic music - and alternators can function in various ways (some have a clutch system- that will almost instantly ramp up, ) some will regulate by need "newer cars" and most are RPM=amps .. and if you cant run max RMS with the engine off - your system sucks balls - so I suggested battery - not cap .. a cap can be a safe-gard to ECU/computer chips (voltage regulated devices) but other than that use - it's useless - battery technology/prices are 100x past what they where in the '90s/2000's - the charge rate/discharge, you can get an 800 CCA batter that is the size of a pack-of-cigarettes, "compass might be small 6ah or so" but that's still crazy its possible .. (it would almost instantly discharge full battery - other than cycle use that will need replacement quickly (caps are like 1million cycles) - is better than a supper cap


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> i was trying to give a - newbie over-view (you never draw max amps - well its hard to with dynamic music - and alternators can function in various ways (some have a clutch system- that will almost instantly ramp up, ) some will regulate by need "newer cars" and most are RPM=amps .. and if you cant run max RMS with the engine off - your system sucks balls - so I suggested battery - not cap .. a cap can be a safe-gard to ECU/computer chips (voltage regulated devices) but other than that use - it's useless - battery technology/prices are 100x past what they where in the '90s/2000's - the charge rate/discharge, you can get an 800 CCA batter that is the size of a pack-of-cigarettes, "compass might be small 6ah or so" but that's still crazy its possible .. (it would almost instantly discharge full battery - other than cycle use that will need replacement quickly (caps are like 1million cycles) - is better than a supper cap


Ok... But don't make a basic high school level math and science education into a parable.
Or You are just encouraging laziness. A newbie has to put in some effort.

I run a capacitor as a start battery.

It should be easy enough for someone to work out an actual problem, before working out the solution(s). Too many people like to throw solutions at a problem hoping one of them hits the mark. There is a lot of that that happens here.

More batteries, more capacitors and more alternators may help in this case, but which one is the best way to go? He already has the alternator, after hoping it would solve a problem,, that he/she may not even had had yet?

So we are sort of down to cap versus battery now, I Guess??


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Holmz said:


> So we are sort of down to cap versus battery now, I Guess??


Jesus Christ - are least I'm confident YOU are asking this as a rhetorical question.

But (much like US politics) there are still way too many simpletons who still perpetuate that exact thing. So under-educated, they'd really think of this as a choice "battery... OR capacitor?"

It's not an "or". 
One is a voltage source powering electronics.
One is a dynamic element within electronics.
One sets the voltage level.
One simply resists and slows voltage changes.

One is the springs on the car.
One is the shock absorbers.

The music - that the amps pull current directly in real-time proportion to - is the road. Dynamics ARE bumps. They cause the need for both springs AND shock absorbers.

A car without springs AND shock absorbers would be terribly unstable.

A car audio system relying only on the amp's filtering caps to also do duty smoothing voltage fluctuations is a lot like taking a Honda Civic off-roading:
If your listening style and music has so few dynamics that it's the equivalent of smooth pavement - sure, maybe you don't need a cap bank, just like some people don't need Jeep Wranglers.

But the fact that this is even a discussion:
Batteries VERSUS capacitors...
Either/or?

It's as daft as not understanding if you should buy a Jeep or a sedan.

Of course, judging by the number of 4-door trucks up and down my white-collar suburban block that haven't seen a Home Depot parking lot since being driven off the lot - we ARE living in a world filled with daft people.

It's as daft as not realizing that even a Honda Civic has both springs AND shock absorbers.

The springs hold the car up. Of course.
It would be forehead-smacking to hear people arguing against shock absorbers, saying "They don't hold the car up - get more springs!"

That's literally the same thing as saying "Capacitors don't work - get more batteries!"

It's an education problem.

And somehow these conversations happen and... two decades after Richard Clark's undefeated IASCA Grand National used them, you still hear "Caps don't work!"

It's like watching someone remove the springs from their car and saying "shock absorbers don't work!"

Shocking. No pun intended.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

Good analogies! So the next question up..... how do you size the capacitors(shocks)? Let's say you are pulling 150A peaks during a mean subwoofer jam session. How to size cap set? 🤔


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> Jesus Christ - are least I'm confident YOU are asking this as a rhetorical question.
> 
> But (much like US politics) there are still way too many simpletons who still perpetuate that exact thing. So under-educated, they'd really think of this as a choice "battery... OR capacitor?"
> 
> ...


Nice rant!
Some people may have enough capacitance built into their amplifiers to satisfy their needs/wants, some may not.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

geolemon said:


> Jesus Christ - are least I'm confident YOU are asking this as a rhetorical question.
> 
> But (much like US politics) there are still way too many simpletons who still perpetuate that exact thing. So under-educated, they'd really think of this as a choice "battery... OR capacitor?"
> 
> ...


You're right, it was rhetorical.

People talk about "The Big Three" in the same they talk about the Father/Son/HolyGhost... And then how after a "Big 3" the lights dim.

Sorry if it was a bit too polemicly worded.




JohnnyOhh said:


> Good analogies! So the next question up..... how do you size the capacitors(shocks)? Let's say you are pulling 150A peaks during a mean subwoofer jam session. How to size cap set? 🤔


JC , I think put the equation up there somewhere.

You need to know the dT ...(which is the time you need the capacitor to provide the current,)
And you need to know the dV... (Which is the allowable Voltage sag that you can tolerate.)

If the system plays tones and does NOT show a voltage issue, then the dV and dT sort of point to the alternator not being able to respond fast enough.
An oscilloscope would probably be useful to measure the alternator's response time.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

the point i was making - the discharge rates of modern batteries (#c or #ccq) are so high - that a capacitor is rendered obsolete. - in the past, we used capacitors because to get an 800cca - the battery where HUGE! (see tuck battery for turning over a v8 or bigger) - today you can get an 800c amps discharge in a package smaller than almost any cap.. - yes the charge rate might be a little slower- (not much) but far more storage (500F is equal to 500c at X.x voltage per second.) so a 600F cap at 14v- can only deliver 600amps for 1 sec = or 600F cap delivers 150A for 4 secs until depletion. 
a 20AH (50% of a 40ah battery so as not to break it) with a 600c discharge rate can deliver 600A - ".03hour" 2minits till depletion? (20ah at 150A = 0.13 - 8-10 minutes?) "is varied by the voltage of battery"




__





Battery run-time calculator from PowerStream, how long will a battery last calculator


Javascript run-time calculator for estimating how long a battery's charge will last under a given load



www.powerstream.com




(using a 40ah battery because a *Li*-*ion -is around same size) *


I think caps are old - and had their place in the 80's 90's , but today - not so much ideal for car audio - and the downsides of placing one in a system that can not be sustained with the power output of the alternator (the dead battery that only will be known when you go to start it up)


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> ... so a 600F cap at 14v- can only deliver 600amps for 1 sec = or 600F cap delivers 150A for 4 secs until depletion.
> a 20AH (50% of a 40ah battery so as not to break it) with a 600c discharge rate can deliver 600A - ".03hour" 2minits till depletion? (20ah at 150A = 0.13 - 8-10 minutes?) "is varied by the voltage of battery"
> ...


Nope.. A 600F cap can deliver 600A for a second, starting at 14V and ending at 13V.
The next second it delivers 600A starting at 13V and ending at 12V.
(And does the whole thing for 14 seconds.)
In the 150A case, the 600F cap takes 4 seconds to go from 14V to 13V.

In reality it probably delivers a bright spark with a kAmp, or lesser current into a load with with some impedance... Which means that the ending voltage is higher.

And the battery delivers its current at a varying voltage as well.
It starts out at 12V and drops. If it did not drop, then no one would have dimming lights... Because almost everyone has a battery in their system.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> Nope.. A 600F cap can deliver 600A for a second, starting at 14V and ending at 13V.
> The next second it delivers 600A starting at 13V and ending at 12V.
> (And does the whole thing for 14 seconds.)
> In the 150A case, the 600F cap takes 4 seconds to go from 14V to 13V.
> ...


i had to check my old books, you are right sir, it will discharge 1 unit at 1 sec per volt.. then the math to convert amps at lower voltage = power (watts) in amplifier ..


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Tdog87 said:


> i had to check my old books, you are right sir, it will discharge 1 unit at 1 sec per volt.. then the math to convert amps at lower voltage = power (watts) in amplifier ..


Perfect.

Yes - and a theoretical capacitor with no internal resistance could even discharge instantly into a theoretical zero- resistance impossible circuit.

Their very benefit IS predicated on the fact that they can charge and discharge as close to instant as possible in non-theoretical reality.

And that's VERY different than a battery, which involves a chemical reaction allowing electrons to move from plates. Batteries are slow - durable deep-cycle batteries are even slower, by virtue of their thicker plates.

When current demands exceed the alternator at any moment -
1) voltage drops, until it reaches the battery's resting voltage. If you have a cap, it discharges while the voltage is falling, slowing that drop.
2) when it reaches the battery's resting voltage - then the battery takes time to begin discharging current - during which time the voltage continues to fall, right past that resting voltage, momentarily. At least that's true if you don't have a cap. 
A cap fills in this sub-second pothole, until your battery wakes up and takes over.

They work perfectly for this. Capacitors are very real things, and they aren't new to the world of electrical engineering. They work.

Capacitors do what capacitors do. There's no "caps don't work" and "adding more batteries" doesn't change the nature of batteries, or speed their voltage rise time.

That's why it's not "versus", it's "both".

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

ckirocz28 said:


> Nice rant!
> Some people may have enough capacitance built into their amplifiers to satisfy their needs/wants, some may not.


I included that in my comment.
That's the "flat road" analogy.
If you really just listen to podcasts and never turn it up to where you are drawing real current, or otherwise don't deal with musical dynamics - then sure.

But then the counter argument of "add batteries!" doesn't apply to that system either.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

geolemon said:


> Perfect.
> 
> Yes - and a theoretical capacitor with no internal resistance could even discharge instantly into a theoretical zero- resistance impossible circuit.
> 
> ...



.. I'm not sure what you were getting at a battery dose does not need any time to reach is max discharge rate - and the idea is instead of adding a cap - you add a 2ed battery - (stock battery #c and 2ed battery #c) = added together = your discharge rate ( #c)- a honda battery is weak like 200- 300Cca - while a dodge Dakota would have an 800Cca battery

yes an alternator amperage output - is important - that is not what makes your headlights dim (unless a 1V drop makes them dim) they dim because the total amperage used (headlights"car" and amplifiers) exceed the output of your system ( if you were running 1500 watts RMS )"110amps") and your car needed 30amps (spark plugs/headlights) total of <140 amps required >and your alt puts out 90amps - your battery would at minimal need to push 50amps to the system - but would suffer 1volt drop (14.4 to 13.4) and will slowly discharge your battery - leading to higher voltage drop = headlight dimming
the headlight will dimm if the required ##amps are not met in the full system

.. if your battery (or batteries) can output the required amps (car + sound system) - then there is NO reason to have a CAP your amps will be fully powered - the 1v difference between 13.8 to 14.4 is the only power drop- (almost nothing)

if your battery can not push the required amps - and need to be subsidized with the alternator output - then you will have a fluctuating voltage- (head like dimming on the boom) 
if your batter + alt does not meet your required amount =headlight dimming constant - (slowly dying) 

if your battery will fully power everything - your alt is not needed - until storage is depleted - with no headlight dimming )time based < ##Ah > run car for a while until no more spark-plugs

the cap is a bandaid to fix 1 of those issues above - that might regulate - for a time. but if you played a bass-tester it will end up dimming headlights even still - can be much longer having a 2ed battery before that happens, ...


cap where used because a lead-acid battery are BIG - and caps are much smaller - 

the moral of this is = get a battery that can push the required amps at peak usage, no reason not to have a battery that cant in 2021 (motorcycles excluded )


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Tdog87 said:


> the point i was making - the discharge rates of modern batteries (#c or #ccq) are so high - that a capacitor is rendered obsolete. - in the past, we used capacitors because to get an 800cca - the battery where HUGE! (see tuck battery for turning over a v8 or bigger) - today you can get an 800c amps discharge in a package smaller than almost any cap.. - yes the charge rate might be a little slower- (not much) but far more storage (500F is equal to 500c at X.x voltage per second.) so a 600F cap at 14v- can only deliver 600amps for 1 sec = or 600F cap delivers 150A for 4 secs until depletion.
> a 20AH (50% of a 40ah battery so as not to break it) with a 600c discharge rate can deliver 600A - ".03hour" 2minits till depletion? (20ah at 150A = 0.13 - 8-10 minutes?) "is varied by the voltage of battery"
> 
> 
> ...


It's not a battery OR cap bank argument as geolemon has already stated. They are supplementary to each other.
Caps in the 90s and 80s aren't the same product as is being spoken about here. VASTLY different amount of power storage and delivery than the massive 1farad caps of the 80s and 90s.
Even though batteries have become much better than the lead acid of the past, they still can't offload 600amps in a fraction of a second as a supercap bank is capable of.
It's debatable if they are of use with a low powered sq system with amps that have plenty of capacitance to begin with, but if you are a spl guy the benefits are easily apparent. Although I would argue that the filtering that a cap bank provides is a use case enough for a no limits sq system, without even talking about the extra potential immediate power draw for transients.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> .. I'm not sure what you were getting at, a battery dose does not need any time to reach is max discharge rate - and the idea is instead of adding a cap - you add a 2ed battery - (stock battery #c and 2ed battery #c) = added together = your discharge rate ( #c)- a honda battery is weak like 200- 300Cca - while a dodge Dakota would have an 800Cca battery
> ...


A battery does have a lag.

Take your Dakota and if it is at 14.4V running, then turn the keys off and measure the voltage.
It is lower than 14.4V.
My truck is at 13.3-13.4V when off, so you loose 1V right off the bat, the instant that a sub hits.

However a capacitor looses no Volts in the instant it hits... It starts loosing volts, and in the earlier example... it takes 4 seconds at 150A with a 600F capacitor.

Until we know how long the alternator takes to respond to a current demand, we are sort of blind to what is needed.

In any case I am not even running a battery for starting. I am running a capacitor. It gets internally pumped up to 16V and can deliver 1800 amps for 15 seconds. The truck has never started up so quickly.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> It's not a battery OR cap bank argument as geolemon has already stated. They are supplementary to each other.
> Caps in the 90s and 80s aren't the same product as is being spoken about here. VASTLY different amount of power storage and delivery than the massive 1farad caps of the 80s and 90s.
> Even though batteries have become much better than the lead acid of the past, they still can't offload 600amps in a fraction of a second as a supercap bank is capable of.
> It's debatable if they are of use with a low powered sq system with amps that have plenty of capacitance to begin with, but if you are a spl guy the benefits are easily apparent. Although I would argue that the filtering that a cap bank provides is a use case enough for a no limits sq system, without even talking about the extra potential immediate power draw for transients.





Picassotheimpaler said:


> It's not a battery OR cap bank argument as geolemon has already stated. They are supplementary to each other.
> Caps in the 90s and 80s aren't the same product as is being spoken about here. VASTLY different amount of power storage and delivery than the massive 1farad caps of the 80s and 90s.
> Even though batteries have become much better than the lead-acid of the past, they still can't offload 600amps in a fraction of a second as a super cap bank is capable of.
> It's debatable if they are of use with a low-powered sq system with amps that have plenty of capacitance to begin with, but if you are a spl guy the benefits are easily apparent. Although I would argue that the filtering that a cap bank provides is a use case enough for a no-limits sq system, without even talking about the extra potential immediate power draw for transients.


.. you make grate point on the filtering - that is something a battery can not do well (lower Voltage than an Alt - to get any filtering you would have to have the engine off ) - but the storage/discharge for a 3-5sec blast in an SPL comp is obtainable by modern battery, when I mention 80,90s I'm talking about cell technology - the discharge rate (#c) has always ben there - but the size (sf-volume) was the issues + lead-acid off-gases. no more are those an issue - large capacity/fast discharge battery's can be mounted inside of your cab- with minimal risk..
i think when people talk about caps - thire talking like how a 4cillander mortar vs a V8 - in the past = had much better HP/power , today you can get a 4cil with over 500HP that would blow my 5.2L v8 (approx 250hp) away at 1/2 the size and better fuel economy ...

with electronics - (amplifyers ) thire is a set-in-stone amount of power that it can draw -(amps) you can go below this amount but never can draw more (max wattatage) - if the fuse"fuses" on the amp add up to 90 (3x30A) - mean they will only draw 90Amps at peak - or will blow/burn out)- if your battery pushes more than 90amps - how dose a CAP help in any way? your battery already can already push more than its max pull- 

i feal like people that talk about caps are living in the past- or have a system that is pulling more amps than can be replenished by the alt- (that would lead to the battery not having enough stored to push the required amps ) if that is the case - a new alt is needed - or smaller system ..

and recharge - yes caps recharge faster but is it equal to the storage of a battery? will the battery not have-enought time to recharge? that would be still be the case with a CAP = dead-battery 

600cca small battery exscample - Amazon.com: Antigravity Lithium Motorcycle Battery 600 CCA - 3 Year Warranty 140 CI Harley DK-AG-20CL: Automotive


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> ...
> i feal like people that talk about caps are living in the past- or have a system that is pulling more amps than can be replenished by the alt- (that would lead to the battery not having enough stored to push the required amps ) if that is the case - a new alt is needed - or smaller system ..
> ...


^That^ is the conundrum... How can a 90A load cause headlights to dim?

And people that do the "Big 3" with 200+ ampere alternators, also have a mobile discotheque of strobing head lights... How can it be?


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Tdog87 said:


> .. you make grate point on the filtering - that is something a battery can not do well (lower Voltage than an Alt - to get any filtering you would have to have the engine off ) - but the storage/discharge for a 3-5sec blast in an SPL comp is obtainable by modern battery, when I mention 80,90s I'm talking about cell technology - the discharge rate (#c) has always ben there - but the size (sf-volume) was the issues + lead-acid off-gases. no more are those an issue - large capacity/fast discharge battery's can be mounted inside of your cab- with minimal risk..
> i think when people talk about caps - thire talking like how a 4cillander mortar vs a V8 - in the past = had much better HP/power , today you can get a 4cil with over 500HP that would blow my 5.2L v8 (approx 250hp) away at 1/2 the size and better fuel economy ...
> 
> with electronics - (amplifyers ) thire is a set-in-stone amount of power that it can draw -(amps) you can go below this amount but never can draw more (max wattatage) - if the fuse"fuses" on the amp add up to 90 (3x30A) - mean they will only draw 90Amps at peak - or will blow/burn out)- if your battery pushes more than 90amps - how dose a CAP help in any way? your battery already can already push more than its max pull-
> ...


If we are talking lithium batteries that is somewhat another story. But unless you are buying extremely expensive LTO batteries, they are quite risky in something like a car. But even then, if we are talking SPL, they still can't discharge like a cap bank for transient loads.
Beyond that, I wouldn't personally run lithium in my car because I don't want to have to worry about having to buy a new house because one of the cells shorted in my garage.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> ^That^ is the conundrum... How can a 90A load cause headlights to dim?
> 
> And people that do the "Big 3" with 200+ ampere alternators, also have a mobile discotheque of strobing head lights... How can it be?


I'm so glad someone asked me the golden question (200amp alt) let us add that you also said 200c 50+aH battery.. and the head-lights are dimming - well a few different ways - (ballast is the no1 reason- on halogen = that 1v drop can change the wave (the freq) that the bulb gets= fix- get a better ballast if possible <this is a very common issue on Toyota's- or/and change to a better-branded light bulb) the 2ed most common reason is the power-wire to the amplifier - at higher amps (power delivery) will heat the battery terminal up - makes a voltage drop on the battery its-self.. -fix do it right and don't 1/2fast your work. , the other major reason - was covered by your post - the big 3/4 power upgrade.. 
iv ran-into this issue a few times - it really takes being there with a DMM (multimeter) to see what the issue is- this BMW it was littery the power wire to the head-lights, in combo with the Relay that was on fire (needed bigger relay that did more than its 20A stock) ... 1 tip ill give you - when the head-lights are dimming - check the tail light/reverse lights (are they dimming as-well? might just give you your answer.. 

99% it will be the battery - your battery should have more output than your alternator - #c - your battery should be more than your entire cars draw (running+system) - it can fully power / (drive for a time) your car if the alt dies) you can have a 500amp alt with a 50c battery and your light will dim.. you can have a 50a alt - with a 500c battery and your headlights won't dim for days/weeks until the lake (storage) drys up time is depended on #aH

1 time (only 1 time) the issue was fixed by running ground wire on 2ed battery (did not like the frame as ground) (4ga back up to the battery for ground) volvo s60 T5


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> If we are talking lithium batteries that is somewhat another story. But unless you are buying extremely expensive LTO batteries, they are quite risky in something like a car. But even then, if we are talking SPL, they still can't discharge like a cap bank for transient loads.
> Beyond that, I wouldn't personally run lithium in my car because I don't want to have to worry about having to buy a new house because one of the cells shorted in my garage.


i have the same concerns, buddy, i personally run a Sealed AGM in parallel with a hi-output lead-acid (sock battery location) and even know the AGM can? off-gas) i take the risk - and the added weight vs a lion - I don't wanna take the risk - (i never had an battery over-charge but still)

i really like my might-max AGM (viper label) - it seems to work better than most- in a smaller (relativity) package









Amazon.com: Mighty Max Battery Viper VP-800 12V 800 Watt Audio Replacement for Shuriken SK-BT35 Brand Product : Automotive


Buy Mighty Max Battery Viper VP-800 12V 800 Watt Audio Replacement for Shuriken SK-BT35 Brand Product: Batteries - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> I'm so glad someone asked me the golden question (200amp alt) let us add that you also said 200c 50+aH battery.. and the head-lights are dimming - well a few different ways - (ballast is the no1 reason- on halogen = that 1v drop can change the wave (the freq) that the bulb gets= fix- get a better ballast if possible <this is a very common issue on Toyota's- or/and change to a better-branded light bulb) the 2ed most common reason is the power-wire to the amplifier - at higher amps (power delivery) will heat the battery terminal up - makes a voltage drop on the battery its-self.. -fix do it right and don't 1/2fast your work. , the other major reason - was covered by your post - the big 3/4 power upgrade..
> iv ran-into this issue a few times - it really takes being there with a DMM (multimeter) to see what the issue is- this BMW it was littery the power wire to the head-lights, in combo with the Relay that was on fire (needed bigger relay that did more than its 20A stock) ... 1 tip ill give you - when the head-lights are dimming - check the tail light/reverse lights (are they dimming as-well? might just give you your answer..
> 
> 99% it will be the battery - your battery should have more output than your alternator - #c - your battery should be more than your entire cars draw (running+system) - it can fully power / (drive for a time) your car if the alt dies) you can have a 500amp alt with a 50c battery and your light will dim.. you can have a 50a alt - with a 500c battery and your headlights won't dim for days/weeks until the lake (storage) drys up time is depended on #aH
> ...


JC...
There is no ballast on a halogen globe/bulb.
If the lights dim, when the voltage drops, then I am not sure changing the ballast is going to solve the question as to why the voltage is dropping?

How is a battery going to fix the dropping from 14+V to 12-13V ?
And why is that alternator not keeping it at 14+ V?


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> JC...
> There is no ballast on a halogen globe/bulb.
> If the lights dim, when the voltage drops, then I am not sure changing the ballast is going to solve the question as to why the voltage is dropping?
> 
> ...


you hit the hammer on the nail - the 14.4 drops to the 13.8v because the alt only have 30 or so amps to give (car is running + headlights) and your system take 50+ or so amps on the boom - - that's the 1v drop devil - and unless fixing the underlying issue - the only cap can fix it (a large-cap) its the quality of ballast - or cheap Chineses lights bulbs (AutoZone) - that's when I set up the system to use a cap when running -then off with alternator off - wire a switch for back-up (emergency start) and up-sell the hole project


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I think I might be getting it now.. Is it a troll thread?


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> I think I might be getting it now.. Is it a troll thread?


... no ... it's basic electronics, ever deal with a 3faze power in a house? then try to do a 5faze? 
the 1v drop issue is like 10% of cars - if not less - the main cause of head-light dimming is voltage drop in a massive way(too large of the current draw - making large amperage spikes ...) most people suffer from the latter ..


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I think I might be getting it now.. Is it a troll thread?


I wear a Cap on my head when it is windy at golf. A battery is too heavy for 18 holes


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> ...
> the 1v drop issue is like 10% of cars - if not less - the main cause of head-light dimming is voltage drop in a massive way(too large of the current draw - making large amperage spikes ...) most people suffer from the latter ..


Yeah we have talked about most loads being state... AC, lights, etc.
A subwoofer is not steady state.
As the percentage of cars with subs is low, so is the percentage of cars with disco lighting.

The question is... "what does one do when the "massive draw" is less than the alternator's amperage rating, but the lights still dim?"


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Tdog87 said:


> .. I'm not sure what you were getting at a battery dose does not need any time to reach is max discharge rate - and the idea is instead of adding a cap - you add a 2ed battery - (stock battery #c and 2ed battery #c) = added together = your discharge rate ( #c)- a honda battery is weak like 200- 300Cca - while a dodge Dakota would have an 800Cca battery


I think from the spelling, grammar, flat out factual errors, assumptions, and attempts to over-simplify to the degree that you are confusing battery discharge rate and battery rise time...
...you are making my earlier point about my pet peeve on this very topic -

This whole "debate" isn't a debate.
It's a myth that the loud-n-undereducated perpetuate because it's inconvenient and they WANT to believe "caps do nothing".
Car audio flat-earthers.
And all while staring at a globe.
All while their fingertips are literally touching the keyboard of a machine connected to the all the world's data...
...and instead - they post a false assumption that came out of their head. Or that their buddy told him - some guy who ran his power cable out his door jamb because he couldn't figure out how to get through the firewall.

That's why this is a pet peeve. There's no excuse for these... arrogant assumptions.
Look it up:

Just like there's no suspension engineer in the world who would argue that a car shouldn't have springs AND shock absorbers because "shock absorbers don't do anything"...

...there's no electrical engineer in the world who would argue that "a stereo with amplifiers capable of pulling more than the reserve current from the alternator at any given moment in time shouldn't have a capacitor", because it is indisputably useful in that installation - to both buy the battery critical sub-second time to chemically switch from discharging to charging and begin to support the current demand - as well as smooth that transition from 'alternator power ' [at 14.4v] to 'battery power' [12.X v] for as long as the current demand overage lasts".
No educated person would try to argue "Capacitors don't do anything".

And yes - this is sub-second stuff-
Has NOTHING to do with a battery's discharge time. It's how long it takes the battery to BEGIN supplying current that's the sub-second rise time consideration -
ALL transients in music are sub-second. That's why your electrical system needs to be sub-second responsive as well.

We aren't talking about hooking extra batteries up to run a cooler in an RV - or even to burp an SPL system. It's not about capacity - that's all "springs" to bring back that car analogy.
We're talking about the ability to facilitate your system playing actual music, smoothing voltage transitions that can occur - and allowing the battery to rise without causing also-sub-second sub-battery-voltage dips. 

Nothing to do with battery capacity.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Chris12 (Sep 20, 2018)

Tdog87: What’s your native language? (Serious question)


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Holmz said:


> Yeah we have talked about most loads being state... AC, lights, etc.
> A subwoofer is not steady state.
> As the percentage of cars with subs is low, so is the percentage of cars with disco lighting.
> 
> The question is... "what does one do when the "massive draw" is less than the alternator's amperage rating, but the lights still dim?"


And...
[Not picking on you Holmz - just using your good rhetorical questions]
...who cares if the lights dim?
Lights ARE dimmer at 12v than at 14.4v
It doesn't take an electrical engineer to realize that, right?

That's not a symptom of anything other than your alternator and battery voltages being proper.

The harm is when the battery rise isn't facilitated, and can drop lower than 12v for a sub-second moment until the battery "wakes up" and starts contributing the current difference.

You actually CAN see a difference in headlight dimming, though, quite often - before vs after adding a cap, especially if current demand is SO high that voltage is falling lower than battery voltage for those sub-second [missing] transitions.

Before - drama. Strobing-dim effect.
After - smooth and slight, just exactly what you'd expect of headlights switching from 14.4v to 12v.

It's a non issue.
"Saving my HEADLIGHTS BULB from damage" should be the least of the worries...
Even garbage amplifiers cost 10x more than a headlight bulb.

And honestly - preventing damage wouldn't be my primary reason for installing them. I want my music transients to be PROPER. The damage-prevention benefit of having an electrical system shock absorber is a nice side benefit, though.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Chris12 said:


> Tdog87: What’s your native language? (Serious question)


i have grown up speaking Tamil, google/Grammarly doesn't help much on spell-checking and windows suck at speech to text sorry I hope you all can understand me - I did not move to the US until I was 20 years old (10 years ago), I try my best .. if I used a translation - iv be told it to make almost no sense at all ..


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

geolemon said:


> And...
> [Not picking on you Holmz - just using your good rhetorical questions]
> ...who cares if the lights dim?
> Lights ARE dimmer at 12v than at 14.4v
> ...


well, tell me how my 2080 wat RMS<at max draw> system does not have this issue of light strobing/dimming? my subs are 1000wat RMS is my subs (2x infinity kappa 12's) and 6woofers+6tweets- all on 4 amps (alpine445u tweeter amp- Crockford punch 400a4 - pioneer <500rms> - Pa razor R4 2000w , and I just about to add a lanzar 6ch 4000wat HTG668 testing it - it might replace 2 of them I hope.. tell me why do I not suffer from this issue and I don't ever have a dead battery - and I play at max volume mostly on heavy bass? swing music - like "big bad voodoo daddy" but icp will also not dim my headlights.. and I have no CAP - I just added a 2ed battery +big 3/4 - and all my amps are off a (1) multi fuse distribution block (grounded to frame never have i see the voltage drop below 12.9V <on the boom>) on a 94 Dakota slt <also like to add - This Ain't My First Rodeo with 12v systems > maybe rethink or test your idea - then test my idea - and see if you can tell before shooting it down - iv played with caps - they work but so dose alternatives - that have more benefits


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> well, tell me how my 2080 wat RMS<at max draw> system does not have this issue of light strobing/dimming? my subs are 1000wat RMS is my subs (2x infinity kappa 12's) and 6woofers+6tweets- all on 4 amps (alpine445u tweeter amp- Crockford punch 400a4 - pioneer <500rms> - Pa razor R4 2000w ,
> ...


Well to tell you that... we would need to measure the current being produced by the alternator, and what is supplied by the battery, during those attacks.
Then we could determine if what is observed comports with our hypothesis and of established electrical theories.

Without ^that^... We are in the land of suppositions and lore.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> Well to tell you that... we would need to measure the current being produced by the alternator, and what is supplied by the battery, during those attacks.
> Then we could determine if what is observed comports with our hypothesis and of established electrical theories.
> 
> Without ^that^... We are in the land of suppositions and lore.


hmm why do you think there is a 2ed battery and a few larger wires going between alt and my battery/ground, it worked out of the box? or was the subwoofer amp going into protection? read between the lines.. and as of 2ed battery it will run at max RMS - while the engine is off - (i have approx 75Ah that are useable) (60ah, until batter go, 's below 12V ) <i added a pic of my batteries < plz not the dirt - I live down a 10-mile mountain dirt road - no reason to keep clean> i use a 200A relay for battery isolation


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> hmm why do you think there is a 2ed battery and a few larger wires going between alt and my battery/ground, it worked out of the box? or was the subwoofer amp going into protection? read between the lines.. and as of 2ed battery it will run at max RMS - while the engine is off - (i have approx 75Ah that are useable) (60ah, until batter go, 's below 12V ) <i added a pic of my batteries < plz not the dirt - I live down a 10-mile mountain dirt road - no reason to keep clean> i use a 200A relay for battery isolation


You have a nice story and pictures.
But we do not know how it is working nor why.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Tdog87 said:


> hmm why do you think there is a 2ed battery and a few larger wires going between alt and my battery/ground, it worked out of the box? or was the subwoofer amp going into protection? read between the lines.. and as of 2ed battery it will run at max RMS - while the engine is off - (i have approx 75Ah that are useable) (60ah, until batter go, 's below 12V ) _ i use a 200A relay for battery isolation_


I'm still not not even digesting what you are attempting to say:

To me it sounds like you are saying something like "MY system doesn't need a capacitor - SO NO ONES DOES!"

I'm not a fan of arrogance based on NOT understanding things. Here, it sounds like there is not only a lack of understanding on not JUST how electrical systems work...
...but on how different car stereo systems can be from one another...
...AND how different one person's usage of any of those systems can be, from another person's usage.

And as a result - you are loudly and proudly declaring just how certain you are that your anecdotal experience should invalidate all of electrical engineering.

I covered both systems and usage in my first post. I made an analogy to music (and personal usage) being a smoothpaved road or a tough trail (or anywhere in between!), and as a result if you need a Jeep or a sedan, for the analogy to that usage. 
That's based on your listening style (I didn't even mention equipment, did I?  ). Thats why there's no one-size-fits all system design - just like there's no one-size-fits-all car... and why some people buy Jeeps And still only drive them on pavement. 
Hence the analogy.

It's not the forum's (or electrical engineering's) fault of you are like hundreds of thousands of people who buy Jeeps and never go off road...
...or the audio system usage equivalent of that.

Possibly also - crooked audio shops take advantage of people all the time. That's how this forum started - notice the "DIY" in the name?
If you were up-sold an expensive amp you are barely tapping - that's a shame. That's an anecdotal fallacy factor. You still believe what you were sold is what you need.
It doesn't invalidate electrical engineering principles.

Measurements could (but they won't - this is not new science). That's what Holmz is suggesting. It'll be eye opening to realize what's really occurring. 

Give it another read: Super caps, ultra caps and people on DIYMA

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

geolemon said:


> "Saving my HEADLIGHTS BULB from damage" should be the least of the worries...
> Even garbage amplifiers cost 10x more than a headlight bulb.


Apparently, here in Alabama, some headlight bulbs are incredibly expensive, I've seen people driving around for years with one headlight. They can afford meth, but not headlights.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

This is too funny. But realize we are in discussion with people from three different countries talking to each other, there are bound to be some miscommunications.



geolemon said:


> Car audio flat-earthers.


Hey also, here is a fun little article talking about adding a 50F cap to a 1000W amplifier. It shows some data that was collected and voltage readings over time. I wish more people would be able to capture this type of data, it would be really nice to see in the DIY community. It would be nice for someone to put a few current probes on some of the wires in a system too and take some oscilloscope measurements,... I hope to do so in my upcoming set-up. Before/after adding caps & secondary battery, etc.

I personally think the fun part of this is trying to figure out the right size cap bank to add for an application, optimize the cap size for the application.

Anyways, cheers! Article below. 🤓

"Benefits of Energy Storage Capacitors and how to select them"


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

geolemon said:


> I'm still not not even digesting what you are attempting to say:
> 
> To me it sounds like you are saying something like "MY system doesn't need a capacitor - SO NO ONES DOES!"
> 
> ...


i was using my current car/truck for example, im over trying to teach basic electric thoughts to people, it talking to people that installed a CAp and it fixed their issues - when they never tried to put in a bigger/2ed battery - and refuse to believe that their car's electronics can run at 13.8v with-out an issue - not wanting to recognize that current voltage is not important when you're talking about 1 volts difference in power current.. but what do i know... 

an electrical engineer would agree if there was no bassline- (bass is your battery - as you described it - only an alternator running - ask him again and include - max amperage draw and max supply - he would agree - that a battery can output more amps for longer) an engineer also is looking at life-spans/ usage/ able to replace battery/ type of risks to each - a cap would never be used in a product with-out a battery - because they fry when you apply too much to a non chared cap (why ou use a resistor to charge on 1st install or if you deplete it 100% or less = cap) 

ps it worked on this truck - and all others i put a sound system/winch / air-rides/ hi-output inverters in (excluding the 1v devle that can have multiple fixes _ )


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

geolemon said:


> I'm still not not even digesting what you are attempting to say...


I agree with this sentiment



Tdog87 said:


> i was using my current car/truck for example, im over trying to teach basic electric thoughts to people, it talking to people that installed a CAp and it fixed their issues - when they never tried to put in a bigger/2ed battery - and refuse to believe that their car's electronics can run at 13.8v with-out an issue - not wanting to recognize that current voltage is not important when you're talking about 1 volts difference in power current.. but what do i know...
> 
> an electrical engineer would agree if there was no bassline- (bass is your battery - as you described it - only an alternator running - ask him again and include - max amperage draw and max supply - he would agree - that a battery can output more amps for longer) an engineer also is looking at life-spans/ usage/ able to replace battery/ type of risks to each - a cap would never be used in a product with-out a battery - because they fry when you apply too much to a non chared cap (why ou use a resistor to charge on 1st install or if you deplete it 100% or less = cap)
> 
> ps it worked on this truck - and all others i put a sound system/winch / air-rides/ hi-output inverters in (excluding the 1v devle that can have multiple fixes _ )


I'm not really sure how you did it, but your explanation below made your previous explanation even worse.

Please know that I am NOT trying to troll you, or even say that what you are saying is your wrong...

That said, if others on the forum cant understand what you are explaining, then there is no reason to even be participating in a dialog about what might work and what doesn't work in car audio installations.

You probably don't want to hear this, but here is some very basic advice to make your desired explanations and ideas MUCH more clear and more understandable and even more relatable.

1) Use proper spelling
2) Use proper punctuation
3) Use proper grammar

NOT trying to be harsh....just my .02


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Tdog87 said:


> i was using my current car/truck for example, im over trying to teach basic electric thoughts to people, it talking to people that installed a CAp and it fixed their issues - when they never tried to put in a bigger/2ed battery - and refuse to believe that their car's electronics can run at 13.8v with-out an issue - not wanting to recognize that current voltage is not important when you're talking about 1 volts difference in power current.. but what do i know...
> 
> an electrical engineer would agree if there was no bassline- (bass is your battery - as you described it - only an alternator running - ask him again and include - max amperage draw and max supply - he would agree - that a battery can output more amps for longer) an engineer also is looking at life-spans/ usage/ able to replace battery/ type of risks to each - a cap would never be used in a product with-out a battery - because they fry when you apply too much to a non chared cap (why ou use a resistor to charge on 1st install or if you deplete it 100% or less = cap)
> 
> ps it worked on this truck - and all others i put a sound system/winch / air-rides/ hi-output inverters in (excluding the 1v devle that can have multiple fixes _ )


There is a difference between something working, and something being a better tool for the application and working better than the previous option.
Can I use a small flathead to take out a Philips head screw? Yes I can, it works. But would a Phillips head driver be a better tool for the job and work better than the flathead option? Yes.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> There is a difference between something working, and something being a better tool for the application and working better than the previous option.
> Can I use a small flathead to take out a Philips head screw? Yes I can, it works. But would a Phillips head driver be a better tool for the job and work better than the flathead option? Yes.


Plus one stays more positive using a + screwdriver compared to the - version.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

Tdog87 said:


> im over trying to teach basic electric thoughts to people,


The difference between "teaching" and "misinformation" is the same as the difference between "understanding" vs "anecdotal fallacy and misunderstanding".

You are again using anecdotal fallacy:


Tdog87 said:


> it talking to people that installed a CAp and it fixed their issues - when they never tried to put in a bigger/2ed battery -


That's anecdotal fallacy.

But yes - people install a cap and it "solves their problems" - there's science behind that, not anecdotes and mythology.


Tdog87 said:


> and refuse to believe that their car's electronics can run at 13.8v with-out an issue - not wanting to recognize that current voltage is not important when you're talking about 1 volts difference in power current.. but what do i know...


I'm actually not sure what you know.

A car electrical system has two voltage sources. The alternator is around 14.4v. The battery is around 12.5v.

The alternator is sized for normal car stuff - not an audio system. And shopping for a replacement alternator is often futile because of the RPM trade-offs that too many of them basically lie about the current they put out... at idle through 2000 rpm.

You NEED to facilitate the transition from when the alternator capacity is exceeded, and the battery (or batteries) are called into action. 

There's a transition that happens -
Voltage will drop from the 14.4v of the alternator, to the 12.5 level of the battery.
Just as importantly, the battery doesn't - CAN'T - even start to wake up until voltage reaches the battery level.

And then, when it DOES reach that level, voltage continues falling PAST 12.5v until a chemical reaction inside the battery happens and it can start flowing current. It's sub- second, sure - but voltage can even fall below 11v.
Have deep cycle batteries with thicker, more durable plates? They are even slower to release current.

It's THAT transition that matters.

Then, secondarily - if (IF!) you find you need more battery capacity, because when you get home your battery voltage is no longer 12.5v - THAT'S when you add more batteries.

TL;DR-
Adding batteries doesn't help that transition. Two batteries won't release current faster than one. It's chemistry as much as it is electrical engineering.




Tdog87 said:


> an electrical engineer would agree if there was no bassline- (bass is your battery - as you described it - only an alternator running - ask him again and include - max amperage draw and max supply - he would agree - that a battery can output more amps for longer)


Do you mean "baseline"? Or "bass line?"

Certainly the bass line is directly proportional to current demand. And just as importantly - your amp (and therefore the sub) can't produce bass with the transients that are actually in the music, if the voltage sources aren't working together.

The "baseline" voltages are twofold. There is no "13.8v" - although if your alternator has too many batteries to charge, that's less capacity that is available to the audio system. So you'll be spending more time discharging batteries at 12.5v than you will be charging batteries at 14.4. 



Tdog87 said:


> an engineer also is looking at life-spans/ usage/ able to replace battery/ type of risks to each - a cap would never be used in a product with-out a battery - because they fry when you apply too much to a non chared cap (why ou use a resistor to charge on 1st install or if you deplete it 100% or less = cap)


Not to be harsh, but - Absolute, unadulterated crap. I don't even know where to start. Yes, actually I do-

Capacitors are in ALL sorts of DC electronics, and two of their most common usages are filtering and stiffening. BOTH of those are all about protecting the circuit and proper performance.

You need a resistor to charge a cap, because of the speed of a cap. It is SO much faster than a battery that the initial charge's current demand is SO fast it could damage your battery plates. You can weld with the spark from a charged capacitor, because they can discharge so fast. 
Speed is THE reason you can use a cap to manage the transitions between alternator and battery - the fact that you need to employ a resistor to safely charge it is direct proof that they are faster than a battery - therefore proof "they work".

Once installed - a cap is then ONLY as fast as the electrical transients in the system, which are (ARE!) faster than a batteries ability to produce current. It's a reactive component. Period. It can't cause harm.



Tdog87 said:


> ps it worked on this truck - and all others i put a sound system/winch / air-rides/ hi-output inverters in (excluding the 1v devle that can have multiple fixes _ )


Those four things are not at all the same. Each has it's own considerations.

And again: the anecdotal fallacy. Again. Your logical fallacy is anecdotal


Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

geolemon said:


> The difference between "teaching" and "misinformation" is the same as the difference between "understanding" vs "anecdotal fallacy and misunderstanding".
> 
> You are again using anecdotal fallacy:
> That's anecdotal fallacy.
> ...


the real reason you use a resistor to charge a cap - is because the battery (input) delivers so much amperage that the tiny wires inside of it will over heat and brake <dead cap>..(also can happen if you discharge too fast by definition but they also are not instant discharge as much as you want us to believe) and my 800Cca battery can weld/vaporize stuff too, wen makes a 4ga wire glow red.. can your cap make a 4ga wire glow red with a cap? <the answer is no - not enough time <avg sized cap 500F - ish - i know it could be possible.. -->amps are added together so my 800+600=1200 amps are enough.. only a proxy 50 amps away from my electric welder at 110V <see how I added that in? amps/volts=watts>

well, you seem like you know what's up, all that sub-sec battery rev up time (should have got that Tessa battery) (and deep-cell battery ? the objective is amps<C or CCA) 

has any ever got an amp to sound better using a cap as a filter? just asking .. i thought the MOSFETs/filters are in charge of that.. and would the cap have to be in line with the electronic device? (on the same power line) as soon as it hits the battery (pool) is it still filtered? why do most caps only have 1 +spoke on it? 

and a car amplifier is in simple terms a Dc to AC converter - and electoral waves work in the same way if there 40million Hz or 50HZ... the load is similar to an AC motor tunning on and off(extremely fast) to control speed/torque ..

iv never had a car/truck battery at 12.5 "your battery is dying - replace asap", (i might not be that old) the lowest battery I ever had was a lead-acid at 12.8, but don't most AWG and SLA or lith run 13.8ish? Mabee Chinese factory for-got a cell in yours? the same factory that made my alternator that outputs at 14.2v for some odd reason? 

i still have not seen a reason to put a cap into a car set-up - and the point of it fixing the 1v devil a lot of cheap head-light suffer from- ..I personly had this issue - and used a cap to go around the issue, and one day - a much wiser man than I, showed me the fix-or reason it does that = new ballast/new light bulb =no strobing ..how to tell if that will work- dose your tail lights/running lights also strobe? it just might be the 1v drop that makes them flash - not a loss of amp's in the system
just wondering


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tdog87 said:


> the real reason you use a resistor to charge a cap - is because the battery (input) delivers so much amperage that the tiny wires inside of it will over heat and brake <dead cap>..(also can happen if you discharge too fast by definition but they also are not instant discharge as much as you want us to believe) and my 800Cca battery can weld/vaporize stuff too, wen makes a 4ga wire glow red.. can your cap make a 4ga wire glow red with a cap? <the answer is no - not enough time <avg sized cap 500F - ish - i know it could be possible.. -->amps are added together so my 800+600=1200 amps are enough.. only a proxy 50 amps away from my electric welder at 110V <see how I added that in? amps/volts=watts>
> 
> well, you seem like you know what's up, all that sub-sec battery rev up time (should have got that Tessa battery) (and deep-cell battery ? the objective is amps<C or CCA)
> 
> ...


^Whatever^

I am using one of these for the starter.








Maxwell Technologies Engine Start Module: for saving money, it’s the fleet service manager’s choice


Maxwell Technologies Engine Start Module: for saving money, it’s the fleet service manager’s choice




www.maxwell.com





With the Maxwell ESM at 16.2V and 1800 CCA, it seems like more than 800 CCA at ~12V or less...
The engine definitely seems to light up more quickly than it had with a battery.

Luckily I jhave enough battery trays to afford using one form this... so it is not really for everyone.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> ^Whatever^
> 
> I am using one of these for the starter.
> 
> ...


vary nice - add a solar panel - as a long-term parking backup (the one I use - for car/camping/hiking iv had a few of these for all my tractors/trailers.. this one seems to work the best with low light like cloud cover/winter. 30wat dose 14.4 / 9v usbC /3A usbA BMS built-in) Amazon.com: Topsolar SolarFairy 30S Foldable Solar Panel 30W Portable Battery Charger Kit for Cell Phone Power Bank Car Boat RVs Off Grid Charge 12V Batteries & 5V Device: Electronics

i like your use of it, using it right.. (your adding to the cap that is on the starter already - that is what is improved when you buy the more expensive one) 
i also have a smaller cap (only 120f -Chinese made i got out of a portable car jumper.)it has just enough to start my truck, it charges when the truck is on and disconnects with the alt- installed a switch for an emergency start (that also on press disconnects all non-needed components <lights,stereo, dome lights, everything but starter/fule-pump, ext> and push-button start) - and the main backup - is when the key is out the 2 batteries disconnect by relay on POA (power on/off accessory) = if i left the head-lights on, the 2ed battery can be used to start >i also work out of my truck - with lighting/power inverter/aircompressor- some times i don't need the engine running for small bs -and forget -draining both batteries .. (i don't have too much room under-the-hood for more batteries and i don't want to use the bed for more batteries )


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> ^Whatever^
> 
> I am using one of these for the starter.
> 
> ...


also, think you - i did not know about this battery (cap) seems just right for my winter trips (-40 temps) i had issued a few years ago with frozen items, i even went -as far to get a phone with -30'c ratings and a Flair cam ) Blackview BV9900 Pro Flir Camera 4G Ruggedized Phone


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

They are good if one has a larger truck than the typical 1/2 or 3/4 ton unit.

I went from two battery trays (start battery, and the rest), which are auto connected by relay once it is running..
To having two lithium batteries on the house side, and one on starting side that solely feeds the Maxwell ESM... so battery wise, from 2x100 ah... to 3x120 ah...



Tdog87 said:


> also, thank you - i did not know about this battery (cap) seems just right for my winter trips (-40 temps) i had issued a few years ago with frozen items, i even went -as far to get a phone with -30'c ratings and a Flair cam ) Blackview BV9900 Pro Flir Camera 4G Ruggedized Phone


I believe that these Maxwells sort of came into vogue with Semis in Canada during winter. By the time morning comes around and a driver awakening to -40 in the cab bed with a run down battery. even if the battery is at 9V that ESM cap is at 16.2V, and the 1800 CCA is a lot more than an iced up lead-acid in the cold light of a winter’s dawn (of discontent).

Australia doesn’t generally get that cold, but even at 0C (32F in freedom units) a Diesel engine without glow plugs or a manifold heater does not really like to jump into action unless the things spins quicker than a “grrrr- grrrr -grrrr-grrr”... it now goes, ‘wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa... vvvrrrooomm”


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Holmz said:


> They are good if one has a larger truck than the typical 1/2 or 3/4 ton unit.
> 
> I went from two battery trays (start battery, and the rest), which are auto connected by relay once it is running..
> To having two lithium batteries on the house side, and one on starting side that solely feeds the Maxwell ESM... so battery wise, from 2x100 ah... to 3x120 ah...
> ...


i see why you put a high value on it, diesel's are not the norm in the USA, most are Gas( petrol) .. as I understand it - the glow-plugs need to get up to 125'f (52'c) and turn the compression stroke.. (with a cold engine block) , a cap seems like it the way to go for a diesel engine ..


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I mostly put it on because the Lead/Acid and/or AGM batteries don’t seem to last more than a couple of years in hot summers. And once those are done, they start to barely start the thing when it is around freezing temps in the winters.
They also don’t weigh a lot.
And I needed a new starter battery anyhow.

And the other reason is that they sort of look cool... and give signalling and street-cred points 
(I know that is stupid, but maybe vanity is real... It was either that or a new pair of shoes.)

Rationally... when one is out of Spotify/cell-phone range, it is also good to have something more dependable If no one is around to help. Whether it is cold or hot, it is easy to get into some health trouble area when one is in the elements for a few days.


Back to capacitors for a sound system... with a scope, one should be able to do some comparisons between Caps versus more batteries.
It seems easy, but I do not recall having seen anyone having done that.


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

Jroo said:


> most of the time when I see people speak negatively on caps it is the old 1 fared ones that you could get a the flea market. I think in many cases people were trying to get a cap to fix a larger issue and caps were a bandaid. This is where get an alt, do big 3, better battery comes from. I see super caps often, but Its usually on the SPL side. I just dont see them much on any sq system so I have never looked into them


This 100%

Even those 1 farad caps can actually help, if installed for the right reasons. They're not going to fix you not having enough power from your alternator at idle. But they will ensure that your amps see a steady supply of voltage during dynamic bursts. 

People that add batteries I assume do competitions where their engines are off. That's the only reason it would make sense. 

I think the super apps are a great idea, especially if you wanted to use them as a distribution block.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

agree and re-iterate this link here with some data gathered by RF.
maybe people can start to learn to collect their own data and post it, as opposed to too much theoretical rhetorical, yadda yadda.

it looks like 1F and 50F can help stabilize voltage to a degree.

"Benefits of Energy Storage Capacitors and how to select them"


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

JohnnyOhh said:


> agree and re-iterate this link here with some data gathered by RF.
> maybe people can start to learn to collect their own data and post it, as opposed to too much theoretical rhetorical, yadda yadda.
> 
> it looks like 1F and 50F can help stabilize voltage to a degree.
> ...


Respectfully, the actual products start out as designs based upon electrical theory.

The graphs in those links is nice to see.

The big advantage of more data would be to understand the various systems (alternator/battery) and how those affect the numbers one would poke into equations.

That seems like the big hole in stock and after market alternators and regulators?

That would not be hard to do, but would take some time and some data loggjng to quantify alternator response times versus load change.

Once one has that, the Maths are pretty easy as a program or even a spreadsheet.


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## JohnnyOhh (Feb 19, 2015)

Yeah you are totally right re: products starting based on electrical theory.

Also, after design comes testing and correlating test results in the real world back to design concepts to make sure they work/act the way we believe.

I don't really see that much here with regard to electrical systems output capabilities. I do see that a LOT with regard to acoustic/frequency responses and testing with mics etc., which I a fun topic too.

I do think there is work in data logging to quantify alternator response times versus load..... it's not trivial, then to add caps and batteries and take measurements again and compare. & to do this over operating range of the vehicle, cold vs hot, etc.

I think it is a dynamic system with a starting battery, alternator, secondary battery and capacitor bank when you have a larger amplifier load current demand. It would not be vary trivial, I _believe_. And sizing each component correctly would be the trick to not stressing the components.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

if the sound was the factor for getting a CAP because of response fluctuations - you can achieve the same fatality using a DC-to-DC converter that is rated for the amperage draw of the system and it will do the same thing if not better for SQ. and controlling futter.. also - iv been told can fix that 1v drop to electrical systems if it's installed to the stock-electrical system - (this has draw-backs as-well in efficiency) . ,


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

JohnnyOhh said:


> Yeah you are totally right re: products starting based on electrical theory.
> 
> Also, after design comes testing and correlating test results in the real world back to design concepts to make sure they work/act the way we believe.
> 
> ...


I maybe underthinking it, but i see the majority of the loads as steady state.
The starting is a one off event.
The alternator size should make no difference if the load is below the alternator’s capability.
Temp and humidity should have no bearing

So the main dynamic thng is a subwoofer amplifier, and the music content.

Once we know the dynamic load and how brand X voltage regulator and Alternator respond, the rest should be able to modelled (and predicted) to closely correspond with say measurements of track X at volume Y.

I see the whole thing as a voltage regulatior response time issue, but as I am in the minority… maybe I need to rethink my confidence level?


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## junior961 (Mar 7, 2021)

imickey503 said:


> I don't feel like throwing up battery graphs. But the end of the day? The Price per performance is not there for the average daily user. This has to do with the discharge curve. C rate and many other factors. (Derp)
> 
> 
> I hate making these serious posts, but why not.
> ...


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## Slave2myXJ (Dec 18, 2021)

Benefits of Energy Storage Capacitors and how to select them







rftech.custhelp.com


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## junior961 (Mar 7, 2021)

I know this is old but i couldn't help myself, sometimes its hard to bite your tongue, but i was eating some jerky and i did bite my tongue...lol Anyway, im on my high horse so d like to regurgitate some useless info that is pertinent to this topic.

A car built in the last 5-10 years had 20-30-even 40 modules or "computers". They have multiple "buses" to communicate with each other, They have more sensors and crap than ever before, but i read hear that the voltage needs to be stabilized? Let me start by saying that no engineer ever has designed a product that is operating at 100% of capability when operating under everyday operations.Im an engineer so you can take this as a fact.. lol, the alternator will have another 40% minimum headroom before hitting the max alternator output. Also, most cars come with beefier stereo systems that are being upgraded or replaced, so the electrical is somewhat better because of all the automation of the car. We dont even drive the car anymore, its all drive by wire, or telling a computer how you want the car to drive, no phisical linkage to any of the drive systems anymore. 

Ulta caps are not used because you dont have enough current to satisfy your audio, It is only for transients, thats it, get a bigger alternator, Super caps are the **** but dont expect them to make every issue you have with your system to suddenly go away. The cars now, well at least the one the Germans make have systems that drive me crazy but i have the G-love and what i thought i knew ablout cars has changed.

With all the modules and compuer and crao, the voltave needs to be stable as F, and if your battery d\ips your car will Freak the f out. I have a 2014 550i and it will turn **** on/off depending on how it feels, or the SOC of your battery. Those terminl under the hood dont go to the battery, they go to a DC-dc CONVERTER BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DONT KNOW HOW TO CHARGE THEIR CAR, AND TO PROTECT THE CAR AND ALL THE COMPUTERS, THE HAVE PROTECTIONSSO YOU dont f up your car and take it in sayintg you didnt do anything. 

I could go on and though there are some comedians in this thread posing as serious car audio guys, i figured id join them.. Be safe and if you a grown up with nice cars, pay someone because these newer vehicles can be easily fubared and you might not have even noticed. There is no such thing as a mechanic anymore, thee guys have to really know how to troubleshoot. 

Life is too short for cheap car subs, because if you cant shake that neighbors windows, then your car audio sux.


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## junior961 (Mar 7, 2021)

Holmz said:


> They are good if one has a larger truck than the typical 1/2 or 3/4 ton unit.
> 
> I went from two battery trays (start battery, and the rest), which are auto connected by relay once it is running..
> To having two lithium batteries on the house side, and one on starting side that solely feeds the Maxwell ESM... so battery wise, from 2x100 ah... to 3x120 ah...
> ...


how is the cap at a different voltage than the battery, you must be talking about a different parallel than i am...lol


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

I haven't sorted through all the reply's but I'll give my 2 cents. I've tested some capacitors in another thread about a decade ago on here. They are not all created equal and I would say there are way more inferior cheap capacitors on the market than good ones. You'd think all these capacitors with the same ratings would or should perform the same. Nope!! Many of these companies are scamming the buyer but unfortunately there are no standards to protect consumers on these "stiffening" caps. Some of these cheap caps are less than a true 50 uF's. When the market flooded with these cheap units, market perception declined and rightfully so. A good unit will make a difference in transients and more noticeable in some systems and not so much in others. It will stabilize voltage, mainly at the amp power input but overall power consumption will be increased as the amplifier will see an overall higher voltage input. So really, it's not a fix for an inadequate charging system and really exacerbates the issue while somewhat masking it at the same time. I haven't tested all capacitors but the best ones I ever tested were the Malory & Streetwires brand. They are more expensive but they performed like a high end cap should!!


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

junior961 said:


> how is the cap at a different voltage than the battery, you must be talking about a different parallel than i am...lol


The battery has a resting voltage of 12.6-13.1 volts (depending on type, starting or deep cycle) and has to be charged at a higher voltage (thus the standard 14.4 volt alternator output), a capacitor will charge up to the available voltage, 14.4 volts engine running, and discharge to battery voltage (into the battery and any other load) when the engine is off.


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## geolemon (Aug 15, 2005)

junior961 said:


> I know this is old but i couldn't help myself, sometimes its hard to bite your tongue, but i was eating some jerky and i did bite my tongue...lol Anyway, im on my high horse so d like to regurgitate some useless info that is pertinent to this topic.
> 
> A car built in the last 5-10 years had 20-30-even 40 modules or "computers". They have multiple "buses" to communicate with each other, They have more sensors and crap than ever before, but i read hear that the voltage needs to be stabilized? Let me start by saying that no engineer ever has designed a product that is operating at 100% of capability when operating under everyday operations.Im an engineer so you can take this as a fact.. lol, the alternator will have another 40% minimum headroom before hitting the max alternator output. Also, most cars come with beefier stereo systems that are being upgraded or replaced, so the electrical is somewhat better because of all the automation of the car. We dont even drive the car anymore, its all drive by wire, or telling a computer how you want the car to drive, no phisical linkage to any of the drive systems anymore.
> 
> ...


Although I think this is a pro-cap post, I think there's a couple points to (re)address.

For one - boom cars are a different animal than SQ cars, and despite that, caps help both:

Boom cars: 
They cover the sub-second voltage drop from the 14.4v "charging" state to the 12v "discharging" state, since the chemical nature of a battery means it's slow to respond to demands for current from the system. That means voltage CAN even fall below 12v for a sub-second moment, which sure - could hurt the ever-more-sophisticated electronics on board today's cars. It can also harm your audio equipment - like the guts of your amp - which if regulated will flow more current lower voltage to make the same power, and just like a fuse - things melt with too much current. It's the same reason amps are only stable down to a certain ohm load - that's pure ohms law (just one law the "caps don't work" crowd don't understand).

A capacitor by contrast is the opposite - it has a theoretical instant (in reality only limited by it's own ESR) current flow response, and it's voltage is whatever the voltage level the system is at, at any given time.

As voltage falls, the cap wakes up and starts discharging instantly - many milliseconds before the battery can start producing current. That help from the cap slows the voltage drop to "slower than instant" and covers the time period where the battery does respond, facilitating a smooth, easy, drama-free, stress-free transition from alternator to alternator+battery, without it falling below the battery charge voltage level.

With today's ultra-caps, instead of a farad or two, you can have a few hundred farad, with not much more ESR. So it could be possible to stretch that cap discharge time out from sub-second to "many seconds", where it could even help hold the voltage level closer to that 14.4v level. But that's kind of a boom-car-only benefit IMO.

For SQ cars:
Caps are noise filters. Noise is really just ultra- fast variances in voltage, and it really underlies another fundamental property of how caps work-
They are fast enough to even smooth out NOISE carried in the voltage signal, Boom Car Bobby... What do you mean "they don't work"? They certainly are fast enough to work for simple car audio voltage systems, whose amps are responding to at-fastest 80hz or 90hz sub hits.
Caps ARE filters. And they do store and discharge current. It's why they are in every amp, and why if you want to go above and beyond, you add them external to the amp too.

But they won't screw up your cars computers either - all they do, as always, is ensure your cars voltage levels stay between 14.4v, abs 12v. They might even filter out some voltage noise which can only help the computers, as well. Even the super caps.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

junior961 said:


> how is the cap at a different voltage than the battery, you must be talking about a different parallel than i am...lol


Think of it like a regulate amp or a “DC to DC converter”, or one of those 12V to 120v systems. So the capaitor only get filled from the battery, and there is a connection post that sits on it and ONLY connects to the battery.
*There is a third post that only connects to the starter.*

So if you did nit know that there are three posts (including the ground), then I can see how chin-scratching, and pate-rubbing, can happen.


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