# 12" + Horn + Tweet



## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

Lets just say that I were to build a tower with these specs:

12" pro woofer, sealed, playing up to around 800 - 1000hz. Super high efficiency. (I'm also considering dual 10's instead of the 12), not looking for SUB bass here, but I want that "kick you in the chest" effect.

Horn, (don't know much about horn, so lets call it a 2" throat), playing from 1000 - 10khz

Some sort of Tweeter to fill in the super high end.


Who would think I'm silly to do this?


Edit: I don't know why I put sealed on the woofer.. could go vented.. really wouldn't matter...


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

you want this

http://www.decware.com/newsite/Pro12.htm


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

Interesting....


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Notice that the peak at 80 Hz is 6dB giving the speaker warmth and great low end punch. The 60Hz figure is -4dB which will actually be referenced against the peak. This gives a total reduction of apparent 60 cycle hum from amplifiers of 10dB or half as much hum as most other speakers. A neat trick resulting from this woofer and cabinet combination. (Other woofers WILL vary).


Decware SUX! The reason I stand so fervently behind this statement is BS like the info above. Of course you get a reduction in 60hz hum. The FR sux at this point. How is that a neat trick? Its crap! Do they have some good concepts? In some cases yes but in most no. Does the guy understand what he is peddling? I have no idea. There is just waaaaay too much BS for me to feel comfortable about anything on the site.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Decware SUX! The reason I stand so fervently behind this statement is BS like the info above. Of course you get a reduction in 60hz hum. The FR sux at this point. How is that a neat trick? Its crap! Do they have some good concepts? In some cases yes but in most no. Does the guy understand what he is peddling? I have no idea. There is just waaaaay too much BS for me to feel comfortable about anything on the site.


ive built maybe 10 of his designs (including this pro audio speaker), 

all performed EXCELLENTLY, and as described.

if you really want to know whats up over there, 

instead of


'contempt prior to investigation'


build one of his designs.

or read some of his white papers on some of the things he has done in audio over the last 30 years.

decwares 'wicked one' design plan is FREE, lots of people say it sucks, but thats because they modd the design, go to decware, download the plans build the wo 36x36 to plans.

then you will know for sure why steve deckert is admired by many

all manufaturers have haterz and fan boys

but until you try their product, your just talking chit


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## innsanes (Feb 8, 2007)

60ndown said:


> ive built maybe 10 of his designs (including this pro audio speaker),
> 
> all performed EXCELLENTLY, and as described.
> 
> ...



I love it, so damn true


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

60 you seriously need to step away from the keyboard. I HAVE built a couple of the designs. Successfully I might add (not like a$$holes latest adventure).

The Wicked one for example has never thrilled me as a sub (whic is the intended application). Calling it a horn in the passband for which this is designed is absolute BS. But let's stick with THIS particular design.

Do you think it is beneficial to have mains that don't have good FR below 60hz as a means to control 60hz hum? If the answer is yes, save yourself and the rest of us the trouble and just shut up now because you truly don't get it.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> I'd try to keep it to a two way with the horn playing all the way up to 18-20khz. You should be able to find a suitable compression driver to cover that range with a 1" throat.
> 
> I think you'd find that you would need something to reinforce the low end if you want to really get that kick in the chest. Depends on your driver selection.


+1 on both counts.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> 60 you seriously need to step away from the keyboard. I HAVE built a couple of the designs. Successfully I might add (not like a$$holes latest adventure).
> 
> The Wicked one for example has never thrilled me as a sub (whic is the intended application). Calling it a horn in the passband for which this is designed is absolute BS. But let's stick with THIS particular design.
> 
> Do you think it is beneficial to have mains that don't have good FR below 60hz as a means to control 60hz hum? If the answer is yes, save yourself and the rest of us the trouble and just shut up now because you truly don't get it.


do you know anyone serious that doesnt run a dedicated sub?

wheres a sub crossed at?

60hz?

oh

so why would you need your mains to play lower than 60?

might as well make the mains as quality as possible from 60hz and up dont you think?

now YOU 'step away' from your puter


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Alright 60, I'm going to play with you just like you did A$$hole...

Answer my question



> Do you think it is beneficial to have mains that don't have good FR below 60hz as a means to control 60hz hum?


Don't sidestep and talk about subs. Decware claims this as a feature. Sounds kind of like the Microsoft marketing approach to me (well the Linux guys will get it).


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> +1 on both counts.


Ok.. so I'll start planning around a Sealed, 12" and 1" compression horn...

With a separate sub for low end extension.

My plan is to basically duplicate the JBL array series of loudspeakers, but spending a **** load less.. I want kick ass, super high efficiency Home theater speakers.

In my head right now I see two 12" fronts, a Dual 8" center, and two, single 8" rears. The Center would have a horn like the mains, but the rears would not.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Abaddon,

Sorry to sidetrack your post :blush:

I would VERY seriously consider a ported design. Most if not all high efficiency pro audio drivers are designed for ported use. 

The problem I have with the design linked above is the tuning. It generates a huge peak at 80 with rapid rolloff below. I would move the tuning freq lower to get a smoother response and more extension (even though you will be using a sub for 60 and below).

I would recommend B&C and 18 sound for drivers. They both are excellent.

One thing to consider is your relatively close field (this doesn't qualify for true near field) application. Mating the radiation patterns of the 12 and horn driver at the xover freq may be tough.

I would highly recommend building a single speaker and doing some testing and listening. You MAY find that you want to go with a smaller driver on the low end and a waveguide on the high (rather than a true horn). Check out Zaph's waveguide applications.

Good Luck!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

On the dual 8" center channel...

If you are using an MTM configuration, I highly recommend VERTICAL MTM (true D'Appolito configuration). Horizontals, while very popular, actually are detrimental to SQ. Given the amount of effort required in design, build and testing I would just use the design that you came up with for the mains (but space constraints may dictate another solution).


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

SSSnake said:


> I would VERY seriously consider a ported design. Most if not all high efficiency pro audio drivers are designed for ported use.


While you're certainly not wrong that pro audio drivers are designed for ported use, they are also designed to be used in vastly different conditions. IMO, low-Q sealed is the best way to go for a set of home audio mains. That way, you don't have to deal with the phase issues of ported boxes at the crossover (not an insurmountable problem, to be sure) and if you pick the right woofer you can get a very usable ~80Hz F3 and you'll have the cone area to run them fullrange. That will probably give you smoother in-room bass response than a steep filter, because more sources playing in the upper bass will tend to randomize room mode excitation.



Autiophile said:


> If you can, just make your center the same as the mains. Easier and better.


Beat me to it.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I understand your comments about


> phase issues of ported boxes at the crossover


 but still maintain ported as MY preferred implementation . The phase issues around the xover should be pretty easily addressed with an active XO on the sub and smart placement. Additionally, I would use the port to lower the FR and excite even more of those room modes.

But in the end it comes down to preference.

One final comment, if you do go sealed make sure to get something with a healthy Xmax (not insane just healthy).


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> I would just use the design that you came up with for the mains


I think that we all agree on the center.


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## epifant (Jul 26, 2005)

http://www.ai-audio.com/products_esp12.html 












> The polar radiation pattern is a symmetrical 90 degrees and is atrue constant directivity design. The waveguide features a state of the artHOMLess Refractive Waveguide PlugTM which minimizes high order modes which cause colorations. Frequency response 90 Hz to 18.5 kHz +/- 2 db. The ESP 15 is meant to be used with the range of ESP subs to form a system that is flat +/- 2 db from 30 Hz to 18.5 kHz while having a maximum long term SPL of 127 db with peaks of 131 db. The ESP 12 is extremely sensitive (95 db full space, 101 db half space), while maintaining top sound quality up to its highest operating levels.



Also available in a very similar kit version from Earl Geddes. Although I'm not very educated in the vast areas of loudspeaker construktion, mr. Geddes seems to know what he's talking about.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

SSSnake said:


> I understand your comments about but still maintain ported as MY preferred implementation . The phase issues around the xover should be pretty easily addressed with an active XO on the sub and smart placement. Additionally, I would use the port to lower the FR and excite even more of those room modes.
> 
> But in the end it comes down to preference.
> 
> One final comment, if you do go sealed make sure to get something with a healthy Xmax (not insane just healthy).


You make good points. I don't disagree with any of them. And it is a preference/compromise either way, that's for sure.

However, one more reason I prefer sealed. With a ported set of mains, especially one that will be tuned relatively high (with a pro audio 12 we're talking 50Hz or so, and that's stretching it) you will need a highpass filter on them. A sealed set of mains (with decent xmax, that's a given) can be run wide open, because there's no unloading below tuning to worry about. But yeah, it's preference.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

DS - I completely agree that they would need a high pass on the mains. I run a DCX 2496 on the fronts and tend to forget that others may not have that level of processing available. You could get away with passives but you would be talking about some fairly large coils.

The reason I am fairly passionate about this is I tired a sealed implementation with a B&C 8NDL51 and with lower notes there was an odd noise that took me forever to track down. Now most would likely no one would ever notice the noise but I did and it drove me nuts. The noise came from air escaping through the vents in the bottom plate (not a typical pole vent). I swapped it over to a ported implementation (a complete rebuild of the enclosure and xover) and the reduction in excursion for a given output level fixed the issue (or covered it up to the point I could not hear it at all).


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> DS - I completely agree that they would need a high pass on the mains. I run a DCX 2496 on the fronts and tend to forget that others may not have that level of processing available. You could get away with passives but you would be talking about some fairly large coils.
> 
> The reason I am fairly passionate about this is I tired a sealed implementation with a B&C 8NDL51 and with lower notes there was an odd noise that took me forever to track down. Now most would likely no one would ever notice the noise but I did and it drove me nuts. * The noise came from air escaping through the vents* in the bottom plate (not a typical pole vent). I swapped it over to a ported implementation (a complete rebuild of the enclosure and xover) and the reduction in excursion for a given output level fixed the issue (or covered it up to the point I could not hear it at all).



Sometimes that is what it takes !  [ Mod the design to accomodate ].


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