# BMW upgrade - JBL MS-9 Advice



## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Hi,

I’m looking to upgrade my 2008 BMW 750li with the premium sound package. I have some gear and buying additional but this is what I was thinking:



JBL MS-8 DSP to bypass OEM amps and power center channel OEM speaker (Would like suggestion on a replacement speaker for the center channel that could be powered by the JBL MS-8 amp.)

Replace 8” subs under the seats with Earthquake SWS 8x speakers (buying)
Add JL Audio 10W3 sub in trunk with ski boot grill (buying)
Power subs with Alpine PDX F6 (4x150watt) (buying)


Replace front speakers with Focal 4” 100 K2P component’s (own)
Power front and rear with Alpine PDX 4.100 (own)

Is this something you would recommend? Is it overkill or should I replace the rear speakers as well to get the 4ohm? Suggestions on a decent speaker set for the rear is appreciated as well. 

Also, I'm in Houston and the shop that I'm thinking about using for the install has a lot of experience but they have never installed the MS-8, only the Bit One. He has quoted me $600 just to install the MS-8 because of the expected hours he plans to spend on tuning. From what I've read, tuning using the MS-8 should not take long. Is this WAY to much to spend for someone to install the MS-8?

The other prices are standard install prices.

Thanks in advance, at first glance, there is a LOT of very knowledgeable people posting here and I hope to learn!

Thanks,

Andrew


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

MS-8 has 8ch output:

1ch centre
2 ch front tweets
2 ch front 4"
2 ch front 8"
1 ch sub

So forget the rear speakers and have the MS-8 handle TA/EQ/Crossover of each driver individually. Leave the stock rears in the car and put a kill switch on them so you can run the MS-8 without them screwing your measurements up and you can turn them on when you have folks in the back of the car.

Alpine UK fitted the PXA-H650 onto the stock drivers of the 5er with logic 7 and used their entry amps to power them. They fitted a "kill switch" so the H650 and amps could be switched off and effectively return the sound system to stock so you could hear the difference-i was startled at how good they got the factory drivers to sound!

Please clarify "He has quoted me $600 just to install the MS-8"-$600 would seem a lot to me, but depends on who/how the rest of the install is done-if you're doing the rest then fit the MS-8 yourself and try tuning yourself before trying someone else. Utimately I would find someone who is familiar with the MS-8 to tune it, they'll be quicker-your guy is just covering his ass and I'd presume charging more as you're not buying off him-I charge more to fit kit bought elsewhere.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

$600 to only tune the ms8 is an outright ripoff. $10 would ne a ripoff. You can do it yourself. It was designed for that. Get in the car, put on the mics, follow screen directions, done in 5 minutes. 

Now, maybe there's something weird about your car and the install takes a good bit of effort... But if he truly meant $600 to let the thing auto tune, I wouldn't set foot back in that store.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

The center channel is the MOST IMPORTANT speaker in the system. You do not want to go cheap on the speaker itself or handicap it with too little power. Look for Focal Access 4" coax (good) or Morel Integra (better), or consider putting in another 4" Focal plus tweeter, with separate x-over (best, because it matches your door speakers). The center in L7 easily "wants" as much as or more power than the door speakers so consider adding another amp or re-assigning you existing amp channels.

If I were you, I would use one of the PDX amps for the front components (2 channels to the doors and one channel bridged to the center), two channels from the other amp to the underseats, and one channel bridged to the sub.

The rear speakers will work just fine off the MS-8 and do not need to be changed at all, trust me!

One final comment, the SWS-8 is the wrong speaker for the underseats in your case. You want a true midbass driver, not a sub down there. You will want to have the underseats play frequencies up to about 150Hz, and the EQs absolutely suck at anything higher than 100Hz. I am speaking from personal experience, by the way! Look at Jehnert x200, Morel MW265-4, and Kicker SSMB8 (with the Morel probably being your best choice for midbass).


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> The center channel is the MOST IMPORTANT speaker in the system.


i guess I'm still old school, but how can the center be the MOST IMPORTANT speaker in 2 channel stereo recording?? With the exception of DVD audio and SACD, everything else is meant to be heard in left / right.


Sent from my iPhone


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Thanks for the response!



kaigoss69 said:


> The center channel is the MOST IMPORTANT speaker in the system. You do not want to go cheap on the speaker itself or handicap it with too little power. Look for Focal Access 4" coax (good) or Morel Integra (better), or consider putting in another 4" Focal plus tweeter, with separate x-over (best, because it matches your door speakers). The center in L7 easily "wants" as much as or more power than the door speakers so consider adding another amp or re-assigning you existing amp channels.


I did a bit of searching and I don't think I'll be able to purchase one of these as a single speaker. The Morel looks to be around $400 on ebay that that's for two speakers. Will I really see that big of a difference with the center channel speaker? I'm spending over $3k so I want to make sure I get the best so I'll "suck it up" if that is the best way to go.



kaigoss69 said:


> The rear speakers will work just fine off the MS-8 and do not need to be changed at all, trust me!


What exactly to I have in the rear? Is it a three way setup or just another set of 4" driver with tweeter as components? Do I need to worry about the 2ohm factory speakers on the MS-8 amp? Will it be able to compensate without overheating?



kaigoss69 said:


> One final comment, the SWS-8 is the wrong speaker for the underseats in your case. You want a true midbass driver, not a sub down there. You will want to have the underseats play frequencies up to about 150Hz, and the EQs absolutely suck at anything higher than 100Hz. I am speaking from personal experience, by the way! Look at Jehnert x200, Morel MW265-4, and Kicker SSMB8 (with the Morel probably being your best choice for midbass).


Wow... I should have posted here two days ago because I already bought the SWS 8x speakers (should arive today). How big of a difference would the Morel or Kicker make? Also, the Morel looks to be around $260 vs the $190 from the Kickers. Which would you go with? 

I had an '05 545i where I replaced the front speakers with the Focals and powered those and the OEM mid-bass under the seat. I was very happy with the mid-base response and definitely want to keep that. I'm adding the 10w3 to have the rest of the spectrum. So, the mid-bass is my most desired output I want from this system so I'll return the SWS speakers if that would be best.

Thanks again!


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Centre ch is NOT the most important!

Alpine's system i mentioned before binned the centre and sounded loads better-IMO centres are good for car manufacturers to give a false impression of "good STEREO imaging" or for movies/5.1 audio-which the OP never mentioned any interest in and likely won't have on the standard deck anyway...

The Jehnert drivers mentioned should be good-not used or heard that particular set but have been impressed with all their other offerings.

I'd go:
PDX4.100 4ch onto tweets and 4" active
PDX6 2 ch for the underseat mid/woofers and other 2ch for sub(s)

Forget rears and centre


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> Please clarify "He has quoted me $600 just to install the MS-8"-$600 would seem a lot to me, but depends on who/how the rest of the install is done-if you're doing the rest then fit the MS-8 yourself and try tuning yourself before trying someone else. Utimately I would find someone who is familiar with the MS-8 to tune it, they'll be quicker-your guy is just covering his ass and I'd presume charging more as you're not buying off him-I charge more to fit kit bought elsewhere.


I will be providing all the equipment except for the Amp kits and RCA's. His quote was $600 to install the MS-8, along with two amps, front speakers, underseat speakers and building an enclosure for the 10W3. The total from him is around $2000 for the install, amp kits, RCA's and the sub-enclosure installed.


Install 2 amps - $270
Install door speakers - $195
Install MS-8 - $600
Build and install 10" enclosure - $295
2 JL Amp kits - $200
2 JL RCA's - $320
I think I will look around for an MS-8 dealer here in Houston. This guy has never dealt with the MS-8 so I suppose he doesn't know what he's getting into. He's thinking he has to tweak the system himself as far as crossover points.

Thanks for the response!

Andrew


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## VaVroom1 (Dec 2, 2005)

The MS-8 is built to work best with center and rear speakers included.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> *Centre ch is NOT the most important!*
> 
> Alpine's system i mentioned before binned the centre and sounded loads better-IMO centres are good for car manufacturers to give a false impression of "good STEREO imaging" or for movies/5.1 audio-which the OP never mentioned any interest in and likely won't have on the standard deck anyway...
> 
> ...


If you had any experience whatsoever with MS-8, or Logic7 for that matter, you would have said the EXACT opposite!


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

VaVroom1 said:


> The MS-8 is built to work best with center and rear speakers included.


Maybe, but it doesn't have enough outputs for a 3-way active front end (6ch)+ Centre (1ch) + sub (1ch) + rears (2ch or 4ch if went active in the rear)

If you run the fronts passively you'll compromise the TA as the tweets and mid-highs are too far apart to work as one driver.

To the OP-what does the installer quote as his hourly rate? $2000 is a lot to install that-our hourly rate is £40+VAT (£48) so a full day would be £384inc-but we normally discount this for a day rate, if buying equipment off us down to £275.00 and that's not 5days work!


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Will the Morel MW265-4 8" speakers fit in the same enclosure as the OEM speakers in the BMW?


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

kaigoss69 said:


> If you had any experience with MS-8, or Logic7 for that matter, you would have said the EXACT opposite!


The system in the 5er was Logic 7 and Alpine put the H650 and took it back to stereo with a switch to alternate between Logic 7 and STEREO H650. Same drivers, just entry level Alpine amps and the H650-STEREO was loads better, Alpine were using it to demo the H650, wouldn't have sold any if the Logic 7 system was better:wiseguy:

The way I 1st suggested(as OP seemed to want to use the centre) he could use the centre if he wished, personally would try without and see how I liked it. 

Maybe, like Cobb2819, i'm a bit old school:



cobb2819 said:


> i guess I'm still old school, but how can the center be the MOST IMPORTANT speaker in 2 channel stereo recording?? With the exception of DVD audio and SACD, everything else is meant to be heard in left / right.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

I can't find Andy's post where he said the center was the most important, but I found this post making reference to it: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1262717-post2.html


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> Maybe, but it doesn't have enough outputs for a 3-way active front end (6ch)+ Centre (1ch) + sub (1ch) + rears (2ch or 4ch if went active in the rear)
> 
> If you run the fronts passively you'll compromise the TA as the tweets and mid-highs are too far apart to work as one driver.


This has been discussed a lot in the MS-8 thread but for the TA sweep ( the first one) you'd cover or disconnect the tweets on the passive set. this allows the mids to line up Via TA and you get your staging done right. Andy W. ( JBL product manager) recommends this set up all the time. 


front left tweet and mid with a passive xover
front right tweet and mid with a passive xover
front left mid bass active
front right mid bass active
side left
side right
center tweet and mid with passive xover
Sub
He also believes the 3way setup with tweets a 3inch mid and a midbass is the best set up for the system....


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> The system in the 5er was Logic 7 and Alpine put the H650 and took it back to stereo with a switch to alternate between Logic 7 and STEREO H650. Same drivers, just entry level Alpine amps and the H650-STEREO was loads better, Alpine were using it to demo the H650, wouldn't have sold any if the Logic 7 system was better:wiseguy:
> 
> The way I 1st suggested(as OP seemed to want to use the centre) he could use the centre if he wished, personally would try without and see how I liked it.
> 
> Maybe, like Cobb2819, i'm a bit old school:


Well, I know that the L7 system in the BMW stinks, and as an ex h650 user I agree that it sounds much better than the BMW system. Having said that, the MS-8, using the system outlined above by quietfly, absolutely blows awaythe H650. However, not using center or rears with the MS-8 would probably not be much better than H650...


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Not seen Andy's posts on this, but:

The mid-highs are a good 12" from the tweets-has he recommended this for drivers this far apart or just for installs where the mid/tweet are in pillars?

As Harman own Logic 7/JBL he's not going to diss it, but as I have said before in the 5er with Logic 7 and Stereo I prefered the stereo set up. I respect his opinion and knowlegde, but am of the mindset that I'd try it myself and see what I prefered-he does want to sell his products after all-use the centre and that's another set of speakers sold...


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> The mid-highs are a good 12" from the tweets-has he recommended this for drivers this far apart or just for installs where the mid/tweet are in pillars?


12" is pretty close, and the mids are still fairly high up in the doors compared to most other cars, where the are firing at your ankles.... 

What's most important, however is that the tweets and mids are equidistant from the listening positions, so TA is not a factor.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

How is TA not a factor? Driver's tweeter is 12" or so from driver's mid, passenger mid and tweeter will have a smaller PLD to each other due to their greater distance from the listener..


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

lavesa said:


> Will the Morel MW265-4 8" speakers fit in the same enclosure as the OEM speakers in the BMW?


Here they are in a 1 series: BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i) - View Single Post - 2011 Base Stereo Upgrade

I would think that the underseat enclosure in the 7 is the same size or bigger, but I am not sure.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

A couple of questions:


Will the Morel MW265-4 8" speakers fit in the same enclosure as the OEM speakers in the BMW? (Yes from kaigoss69, thanks)
Will the MS-8 be able to power the 2-ohm OEM rear speakers without overheating?
For the center channel, all I've seen mentioned are 6.5" speakers and the stock space is for 4". I would like to avoid modifying the dash so I'm still open to suggestions for a good 4" center speaker.
Can someone tell me what I actually have in the rear of the BMW? Is it just a two-way component set or do I have a door speaker and a coax in the rear deck?

So what I would do would be to be power the front speakers and center channel on the PDX 4.100, the PDX F6 would power the 8" mids and the 10w3 sub, and the MS-8 would power the rear OEM speakers.

Thanks,

Andrew


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

If the Morel will fit the so should Dynaudio's 8"-they were an option in Volvo's found a pair 2nd hand on ebay for £60 delivered Also available from Volvo as a spare-about £160 in the UK-a good alternative.

MS-8 tech spec says 2ohm stable

If going with the centre it's advised to use the same driver as for the fronts-get another set of Focals

IIRC a 10cm and seperate tweeter


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

lavesa said:


> A couple of questions:
> 
> 
> Will the Morel MW265-4 8" speakers fit in the same enclosure as the OEM speakers in the BMW? (Yes from kaigoss69, thanks)
> ...


Do you have the Logic7 system?

FYI, I have a 3-series with L7 system, which I believe is very similar to the 7-series. I used to run the Focals in the doors with a Bitone, but then I got a new car (another 3-series) and deecided to upgrade to the MS-8. I first installed the MS-8 letting it run the L7 factory speakers, because I was too lazy to rip the door panels off... That was over a year ago. I have since sold the Focals. The car sounds incredible with the OEM speakers and the MS-8 ! Incidentally, OP, if you have L7 then the factory 8" woofers make excellent midbass drivers!

I highly recommend you installing the MS-8 first, put 2 channels of the PDX on the underseats, and then decide if you need to do anything further.

BTW, if you decide on installing the Focals, I have a 4" 4KSlim driver left over (I bought it for the center channel but never installed) but I do not have the x-over or the tweeter.


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

quietfly said:


> This has been discussed a lot in the MS-8 thread but for the TA sweep ( the first one) you'd cover or disconnect the tweets on the passive set. this allows the mids to line up Via TA and you get your staging done right. Andy W. ( JBL product manager) recommends this set up all the time.
> 
> 
> front left tweet and mid with a passive xover
> ...


Totally agree !!
I have tried many configurations with the MS-8, and the above setup is by far the best in my car.
BTW the 3" midrange are in the upper doors, and the tweeters are in pods near the A-pillars, about 12" from each midrange. Passive XO 4500hz/12dB.
Covering the tweeters for the first set of sweeps (at each position) works fine. That Andy's a pretty savvy dude :smart::smart:


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> If going with the centre it's advised to use the same driver as for the fronts-get another set of Focals


Would the Focal Access 100 ca1 2 way be a good choice for the center speaker?


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

SWS 8x - I realize my mistake now and plan to return them. I'm looking into the Morel MW265-4 8" mid-bass speakers for under the seat. Thoughts?

I will use my Focal's in the front and I found a pair of Focal Acess 100 CA1 - 2 way 80 watt 4" I could use for the center for $100. Do you think they will work with the 100 K2P's?

So this is what I have:


JBL MS-8
Focal 100 K2P 4" components for the front
Focal Access 100CA1 4" coax for center (would purchase)
Morel MW265-4 8" for under seat (plan to purchase)
10W3 in an enclosure
Alpine PDX F6 4x150
Alpine PDX 4.100
Stock rear speakers

I would use two channels of the 4.100 for the 100 K2P's and bridge the other channels to the 100CA1 in the center (although, this sounds like it may be overkill). I will use 2 channels of the 4x150 for the MW265's and bridge the other two channels to the sub and power the rears with the MS-8.

What I don't know is if the Focals will fit in the center channel enclosure. I also don't know if the OEM grill will be able to cover the MW265's under the seat of the BMW. I'm also having a VERY hard time finding anyone in Houston that has installed an MS-8. Hard to believe.... Most all of them mention the Bitone. 

I think I'm getting closer, thanks for all your help!

Andrew


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## RedAggie03 (Jun 7, 2009)

I'm in Houston...I've never tuned a MS-8, but just watching the videos on it I'm sure I could help you do it! What part of town are you in? I'm near Ikea.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

This install would be relatively easy, since all the connection are made in the trunk, and the wiring for the speakers is already there. Forum member Technic sells a harness for for the 3-series (and 5-series I believe) that allows you to "tap" into the existing speaker wiring without cutting or splicing any wires. It also makes the install easier and cleaner. If the amp in the 7 series uses the same connection, he should be able to help you. Assuming you have Logic7, what you want to do then is run the outputs of the OEM L7 amp (FL & FR door "hi" signal, as well as FL & FR underseat "lo" signals) into the MS-8 high-level inputs, FL & FR "hi" into input channels 1 & 2 and FL & FR "lo" into inputs 7 & 8. Then you run RCAs from the MS-8 to the amps and connect the speaker outputs back into the OEM wiring at the OEM amp. It really is that simple. You can do this yourself. The speakers for the doors and center will require mounting adapter rings, and this part of the install you could let the shop do as it is a bit of a PITA but if you are "crafty" you can certainly do it yourself just as well.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> This install would be relatively easy, since all the connection are made in the trunk, and the wiring for the speakers is already there. Forum member Technic sells a harness for for the 3-series (and 5-series I believe) that allows you to "tap" into the existing speaker wiring without cutting or splicing any wires. It also makes the install easier and cleaner. If the amp in the 7 series uses the same connection, he should be able to help you. Assuming you have Logic7, what you want to do then is run the outputs of the OEM L7 amp (FL & FR door "hi" signal, as well as FL & FR underseat "lo" signals) into the MS-8 high-level inputs, FL & FR "hi" into input channels 1 & 2 and FL & FR "lo" into inputs 7 & 8. Then you run RCAs from the MS-8 to the amps and connect the speaker outputs back into the OEM wiring at the OEM amp. It really is that simple. You can do this yourself. The speakers for the doors and center will require mounting adapter rings, and this part of the install you could let the shop do as it is a bit of a PITA but if you are "crafty" you can certainly do it yourself just as well.


This is assuming I would use the existing amps, right? I'm planning to bypass the OEM amps altogether and use the Aplines. I think I will use some of the DIY links to replace the center channel speaker and maybe the underseat mids.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

CraigE said:


> Totally agree !!
> I have tried many configurations with the MS-8, and the above setup is by far the best in my car.
> BTW the 3" midrange are in the upper doors, and the tweeters are in pods near the A-pillars, about 12" from each midrange. Passive XO 4500hz/12dB.
> Covering the tweeters for the first set of sweeps (at each position) works fine. That Andy's a pretty savvy dude :smart::smart:


Andy recommended all active if possible on ALL speakers 

Buy yours sounds pretty darn good with the passives


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

lavesa said:


> This is assuming I would use the existing amps, right? I'm planning to bypass the OEM amps altogether and use the Aplines. I think I will use some of the DIY links to replace the center channel speaker and maybe the underseat mids.


In the Logic7 system you cannot bypass the OEM amp...


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

quietfly said:


> This has been discussed a lot in the MS-8 thread but for the TA sweep ( the first one) you'd cover or disconnect the tweets on the passive set. this allows the mids to line up Via TA and you get your staging done right. Andy W. ( JBL product manager) recommends this set up all the time.
> 
> 
> front left tweet and mid with a passive xover
> ...


Can you explain how this would relate to my setup? Does side left and side right refer to the rear OEM speakers? If so, aren't they 4" mid and tweet?

I don't understand what you mean by passive and actvie. The MS-8 does all the xover, right? Or do the Alpine amps have xover's built in? 

This is what I have to work with:


JBL MS-8 
Focal 100 K2P 4" mid and tweet for the front (L&R)
Focal Access 100CA1 4" mid and tweet for center
Morel MW265-4 8" mid base (L&R under seats) 
10W3 sub in an enclosure 
Stock rear speakers (I believe mid and tweet pair)
Alpine PDX F6 4x150 
Alpine PDX 4.100 

Sorry for being such a newbie!


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

lavesa said:


> Can you explain how this would relate to my setup? Does side left and side right refer to the rear OEM speakers? If so, aren't they 4" mid and tweet?
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by passive and actvie. The MS-8 does all the xover, right? Or do the Alpine amps have xover's built in?
> 
> ...


front left tweet and mid with a passive xover 
Focal 100 K2P 4" Midrange + Tweeter ADD a passive xover -> (Channel 1)

front right tweet and mid with a passive xover 
Focal 100 K2P 4" Midrange + Tweeter ADD a passive xover -> (Channel 2)

front left mid bass active 
Morel MW265-4 8" -> (Channel 3)

front right mid bass active 
Morel MW265-4 8" -> (Channel 4)

side left 
Stock rear Speaker Midr/Midb + Tweeter ADD a passive xover -> (Channel 5)

side right 
Stock rear Speaker Midr/Midb + Tweeter ADD a passive xover -> (Channel 6)

center tweet and mid with passive xover 
Focal Access 100CA1 4" Midr/Midb + Tweeter ADD a passive xover -> (Channel 7)

Sub 
10W3 -> (Channel 8)

If you have passive xover when you buy the speaker use it .. if not you have to make it.
Some folks like complex and well design passive xover .. some like very simple passive xover.
Gary Biggs BMW just use a capacitor for each Tweeter .. Andy said a 4,7uF and Win IASCA. 
It's all up to you.

So .. i guess you will use MS-8 Internal Power ? I suggest you need one more 4 channel amps .. considering level match about all your speaker and power.

Edit : I mean a mono for sub and 2 x 4 channel amps.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Tendean17 said:


> If you have passive xover when you buy the speaker use it .. if not you have to make it.
> Some folks like complex and well design passive xover .. some like very simple passive xover.


The Focal 100 K2P components have a xover built in, right? Also, I would assume the stock speakers have one built in as well so would I really need to add any xovers? Also, I thought the MS-8 would add the crossover to the speakers in general?



> So .. i guess you will use MS-8 Internal Power ? I suggest you need one more 4 channel amps .. considering level match about all your speaker and power.


I was planning to use the MS-8 to power the rears for rear fill. Are you suggesting I get a mono amp for the sub and then power the rest with the Alpines? Can you explain what you mean by level matching? Are you saying to use a 100watt amp for speakers that can handle 100 watts, etc. or that the power of the amps should be the same?


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> In the Logic7 system you cannot bypass the OEM amp...


Would I need a digital pre-amp, like the mObridge DA1000, for the MS-8 to interface with the factory deck? I was hoping to avoid the OEM amps and connect directly with the deck and let the MS-8 do the Logic 7.


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## TJeep56 (Apr 24, 2011)

lavesa said:


> Would I need a digital pre-amp, like the mObridge DA1000, for the MS-8 to interface with the factory deck? I was hoping to avoid the OEM amps and connect directly with the deck and let the MS-8 do the Logic 7.


Yes. This is the only way to get signal before it's amplified/crossed over/screwed with.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

lavesa said:


> The Focal 100 K2P components have a xover built in, right? Also, I would assume the stock speakers have one built in as well so would I really need to add any xovers? Also, I thought the MS-8 would add the crossover to the speakers in general?


Since your K2P have a xover built in so you can use it and your center is a coaxial so you don't need to add passive anymore (already exist). If you will add a tweeter for your stock speaker (rear) then you need a passive. 

For making clear .. 
Passive xover for your Speaker is different than MS-8 xover for Calibration / Setup. Passive xover for your speaker is needed for making 2 driver (Midbass or Midrange + Tweeter) so MS-8 will recognize as a single fullrange speaker and connect to one channel at MS-8 like a coaxial speaker.
MS-8 xover at Calibration/Setup Process will Hipass and Lowpass with slope selection to your Sub, Front Low, Front High, Center and Rear.



lavesa said:


> I was planning to use the MS-8 to power the rears for rear fill. Are you suggesting I get a mono amp for the sub and then power the rest with the Alpines? Can you explain what you mean by level
> matching? Are you saying to use a 100watt amp for speakers that can handle 100 watts, etc. or that the power of the amps should be the same?


Since you ask me to suggest then please read below at first.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK... the rears in L7 play loudly or not so loudly depending on what information in the track gets steered to the rear. On some tracks, there won't be much output on others, there may be a lot. Ideally, the rears would be able to play as loudly as the fronts for those times when the recording dictates that they should, but this isn't super critical.
> 
> When MS-8 does the calibration, it looks for the rears to be about as loud as the fronts--it level matches them. If you amplify the front and not the back, MS-8 will reduce the level of the fronts. That means that if you've paid for 1000 watts for each of the front speakers and don't want to buy an amp for the rears, you won't experience Logic7 as it's supposed to be experienced. If this is an acceptable compromise because you don't want to buy an amp and you want the front speakers to be loud, then do this:
> 
> ...


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

kaigoss69 said:


> I can't find Andy's post where he said the center was the most important, but I found this post making reference to it: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1262717-post2.html


I have ..



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ... Originally, I used all the Volvo speakers and added the mids only. I've built cars that sound great using all factory drivers and with cheap aftermarket drivers and great aftermarket drivers. The most important parts of the system are the center channel, the location of the mids in the doors, the ridiculous amount of EQ available and center steering..


In case someone want to know Andy's Car Volvo ..



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK. Here are a few pictures.
> 
> The first one is the door speakers. In the bottom is a dual 2-ohm coil 6" midbass behind the factory grille in the front. There's nothing behind the factory 4" grille in the back of the original grille at the bottom of the door. that's a stupid place for a midrange. The mid in front of the door handle is a 3" (custom installation of that speaker was courtesy of Gary Biggs). The tweeter in the top is a basic 1" titanium dome with a rubber surround. All of the speakers came from our OEM group and are all used in Mercedes Benz systems.
> 
> ...





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No secrets from me. Front is a 6", 3" and tweeter in the doors. Tweeter is in the sail panel, mid near the door handle (it's a Volvo s60) and the 6" in the bottom of the door.
> 
> Center channel is a 6" and tweeter pointing up at the windshield.
> 
> ...


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Access probably wouldn't cut it-if the centre is the most important speaker, as all are saying, then you shouldn't skimp on it


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> How is TA not a factor? Driver's tweeter is 12" or so from driver's mid, passenger mid and tweeter will have a smaller PLD to each other due to their greater distance from the listener..


TA matters little for really high frequencies because our ears and brains are designed to hear level (to determine te location of sounds) above 3kHz and to hear phase below 1kHz. Betwen 1 and 3, we don't localize sounds very well. that's the transition band and is related to the distance between our ears.

There's nothing wrong with the speakers in the BMW, as I've said and written a thousand times. There is something wrong with the tuning in the car, if you're an aftermarket enthusiast. MS-8 is designed to tune for aftermarket guys. The factory tune is designed not to irritate almost everyone.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

lavesa said:


> Would I need a digital pre-amp, like the mObridge DA1000, for the MS-8 to interface with the factory deck? I was hoping to avoid the OEM amps and connect directly with the deck and let the MS-8 do the Logic 7.


Just hook up to the output of the factory amp! There's nothing wrong with this method. You're making this far too complicated, with the help of your installer. $600 to install an MS-8 is unreasonable, unless you've asked him to custom mount the display. Go somewhere else. 

All of this nonsense about keeping the signal digital is a waste of time and effort and money. If you believe that complexity is required for good sound, then I suggest choosing a different processor and letting your installer tune the car. I hate to say that, but if he's the one giving you all of this advice, he's not going to be successful with MS-8 because he'll be second-guessing everything it does before even trying it--which is what appears to be happening. If you have to use him, then try a Bit-One. It's the best manual tuning system and works with a MoBridge. That system will be more complicated, more difficult to tune, more costly, take up more space, require more additional amplification.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

I agree with Andy. My MS-8 is being fed directly by the OEM L7 amp and it sounds terrific!


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

In reality, MS-8 shouldn't cost any more to install that an amplifier with a remote level control. OK, maybe a little more. If your installer quoted you $600 to install a powered sub and mount the remote, would you pay that?


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> TA matters little for really high frequencies because our ears and brains are designed to hear level (to determine te location of sounds) above 3kHz and to hear phase below 1kHz. Betwen 1 and 3, we don't localize sounds very well. that's the transition band and is related to the distance between our ears.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with the speakers in the BMW, as I've said and written a thousand times. There is something wrong with the tuning in the car, if you're an aftermarket enthusiast. MS-8 is designed to tune for aftermarket guys. The factory tune is designed not to irritate almost everyone.


Thanks for clearing that up for me Andy


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> OK... the rears in L7 play loudly or not so loudly depending on what information in the track gets steered to the rear. On some tracks, there won't be much output on others, there may be a lot. Ideally, the rears would be able to play as loudly as the fronts for those times when the recording dictates that they should, but this isn't super critical.
> 
> When MS-8 does the calibration, it looks for the rears to be about as loud as the fronts--it level matches them. If you amplify the front and not the back, MS-8 will reduce the level of the fronts. That means that if you've paid for 1000 watts for each of the front speakers and don't want to buy an amp for the rears, you won't experience Logic7 as it's supposed to be experienced. If this is an acceptable compromise because you don't want to buy an amp and you want the front speakers to be loud, then do this:
> 
> ...


So, with this said, will I have issues with the rears being powered by the MS-8 or will I be able to compensate by reducing the gains of the Alpine amps before calibration?


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

lavesa said:


> So, with this said, will I have issues with the rears being powered by the MS-8 or will I be able to compensate by reducing the gains of the Alpine amps before calibration?


I think you'll be fine. The OEM speakers are 2ohm (in L7) so they would be getting 30W each. In my car, all 4" and 1" speakers (14 total) are driven by the MS-8, and I have never had the urge to crank it all the way up.

But why don't you try it with the OEM speakers first? Then you would not have that issue since all speakers get the same power....(and it sounds damn fine!)


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> I think you'll be fine. The OEM speakers are 2ohm (in L7) so they would be getting 30W each. In my car, all 4" and 1" speakers (14 total) are driven by the MS-8, and I have never had the urge to crank it all the way up.
> 
> But why don't you try it with the OEM speakers first? Then you would not have that issue since all speakers get the same power....(and it sounds damn fine!)


Well, I already had the Focal's from my 5 series where I powered those and the OEM mid's under the seat. It sounded really good. Now that I have the 750 and there is a ski boot, I can easily get a box built for the sub so I wanted the upgrade. Then I was told I would have to use the MS-8, so I decided if I'm going there... I might as well go all the way!

It was only an extra $100 for the center Focal but I did upgrade the underseat Mids to Morel's. That's the bass that I feel is lacking in most vehicles because people go for the 12's for low bass and never get that good solid kick bass.

Now I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas morning, all my boxes arrived yesterday and today. Got the first look at the MS-8 and can't wait until Tuesday to get it installed.


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## Technic (Oct 10, 2008)

lavesa said:


> Well, I already had the Focal's from my 5 series where I powered those and the OEM mid's under the seat. It sounded really good. Now that I have the 750 and there is a ski boot, I can easily get a box built for the sub so I wanted the upgrade. Then I was told I would have to use the MS-8, so I decided if I'm going there... I might as well go all the way!
> 
> It was only an extra $100 for the center Focal but I did upgrade the underseat Mids to Morel's. That's the bass that I feel is lacking in most vehicles because people go for the 12's for low bass and never get that good solid kick bass.
> 
> Now I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas morning, all my boxes arrived yesterday and today. Got the first look at the MS-8 and can't wait until Tuesday to get it installed.


Please clean up your PM inbox -it is full- so I can respond to your PM... :speechless:


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Technic said:


> Please clean up your PM inbox -it is full- so I can respond to your PM... :speechless:


Thanks, I cleared up my inbox. Let me know about the harness!

Andrew


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

lavesa said:


> Well, I already had the Focal's from my 5 series where I powered those and the OEM mid's under the seat. It sounded really good. Now that I have the 750 and there is a ski boot, I can easily get a box built for the sub so I wanted the upgrade. Then I was told I would have to use the MS-8, so I decided if I'm going there... I might as well go all the way!
> 
> It was only an extra $100 for the center Focal but I did upgrade the underseat Mids to Morel's. That's the bass that I feel is lacking in most vehicles because people go for the 12's for low bass and never get that good solid kick bass.
> 
> Now I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas morning, all my boxes arrived yesterday and today. Got the first look at the MS-8 and can't wait until Tuesday to get it installed.


Consider doing the install in steps. Step 1 is to install the MS-8, the amp, the underseats, and the sub. Step 2 would be the Focals in the doors and the center. Spend some time listening to your step 1 system. At least then you have a baseline for when step 2 is done. In my car, I am almost certain that it sounds better with all the speakers being the same, instead of a mix. The MS-8 does not need ultra high-end speakers to produce great sound, it just needs good speakers, and it helps if they are all the same.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Okay, I got my car back today but there are issues with the tuning. Andy Weymeyer was kind enough (or crazy enough) to give me his cell phone which turned out to be a great thing as I was sitting in an empty parking lot of the installer. I went through the input selection and totally screwed up the xover points.

At any rate, Andy actually walked me through it over the phone! However, when I finish the calibration, the 12W3 is VERY loud and over powering to the rest of the speakers. Andy told me to make sure the amps had the xovers turned OFF and that possibly the gains on the sub amp were too low which would cause the calibration over compensate for them.

Here is my response to Andy, I'm posting here for posterity and to also get any additional feedback or ideas. 

----------------
What I get right now is all bass and the speakers start to clip when I play something with really low frequency bass. I have turned the sub level to far left and reduced the whole left side of the EQ almost to the bottom. I had to reduce the 500-1.6 range as well because it was sounding really harse.

I checked and the LP xover on the Amp and it was set on the Sub so I set that back to OFF and made sure that all of them were turned off. After recalibration, the bass is still very loud. Looking at the diagram of the amp, the gains show "*Min, High, Max*" and they are both at the *High* position, right in the middle. It states that min is 4V so I would assume that *High* is 2V? 

I have a new Alpine PDX F6 but an older model of the Alpine PDX 4.100. Could the gains be off that much? Could it be they are too high in comparison to the rear speakers that are powered by the MS-8? 

I was hoping my problem was with the xover on the amp, but that does not appear to be the problem.

When I do the sweeps, the bass is not noticeably lower than the rest of the sounds but it does still end up very loud after the calibration. Should I just turn the gains down on the amp to the subs after the calibration? 

The odd part is that the mid-bass drivers that are on channel 1&2 of that amp are not overly loud that I can tell, only the bridged sub on channels 3&4. As a matter of fact, I don't really feel/hear the mid-bass nearly as much as I was expecting. In my old 5 series, I just powered the OEM subs with the 4.100 and they blew me away. Now I have replaced with Morel 8" with a 4x150watt and they don't sound as good to me now.

Here is my setup:

Andy walked me through the xover points and I used 6db/Slope on the Sub1 and 24db/Slope on the rest. I will post the xover points when he responds to my email or this thread.

*Inputs:*
Sub1
2-Way Front
1 way center
1 way side

*Output Channels:*
*Channel 1* – (FL Hi) – mid/tweet with passive xover (Focal 4” with seperate 1” tweet)
*Channel 2* – (FR Hi) – mid/tweet with passive xover (Focal 4” with separate 1” tweet)
*Channel 3* – (FL Lo) – mid-bass (Morel 8”)
*Channel 4* – (FR Lo) – mid-bass (Morel 8”)
*Channel 5* – (Ctr) - Center coax with passive xover – (Focal 4” coax)
*Channel 6* – (Sub1) – JL Audio 12W3
*Channel 7&8* – (SL) and (SR) – (OEM speakers)

*Power:*
*Alpine 4.100*
Channel 1 – (FL-Hi)
Channel 2 – (FR-Hi)
Channel 3&4 – Bridged to (Ctr)

*Alpine PDX F6 4X150*
Channel 1 – (FL Lo)
Channel 2 – (FR Lo)
Channel 3&4 – Bridged to (Sub1)

*JBL MS-8*
Power (SL) and (SR)

It also sounds like the Center is louder than the front R&L.

Thanks for you help!

Andrew


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

In the beginning, I got distortion on bass notes from the 4" mids. I solved this problem by adjusting the gain on the 8" woofers' amp. Make sure the sweeps are all the same volume, except for the sub. To test the output of each channel, it is best to measure this during set-up when it plays white noise through each channel. You can use your iphone, if you have one, and the JL Audio app. It is very important to get the woofers on paar with the door speakers! Now for the sub, I just set it such that I can barely hear the sweeps. Definitely not so loud that you can feel it! You have to play around with it. To get the level between the doors speakers and the underseat woofers right, I suggest you run through a few calibrations without the sub connected. Once you have it right, add the sub back in.

For the center level, it may just be your initial reaction to how L7 sounds. Imaging will be in the center of the windshield, so it may seem as if it is all coming from that speaker, but it isn't. If you want the image in front of you, turn your head past the left side mirror during calibration. After that, if it is still too much, you can use the system levels menu to tone it down to your liking. But first, I would try running the center off of one channel of the PDX, since it may be getting too much power.

Edit: As for midbass, you are right, I have made the same observation ( I just installed my sub yesterday). It (midbass) sounds a lot better when calibrated without a sub. I will play with the gains on the amp as well as the EQ to see if I can get some of it back.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Hi, I wanted to update how this ended up and to also get opinions on two different configurations.

First of all, I replaced the Focal speakers with Morel 4" Hybrid Ovation II Components and a Morel Integra 4" Coax for the center channel. I like the sound much better because the soft dome tweeters don't sound quite as "harsh" as the Focal's K2P100 4" Components.

*Power and Speakers:*
*Alpine 4.100*
Channel 1 – Front Left (Morel 4" HOII Components)
Channel 2 – Front Right (Morel 4" HOII Components)
Channel 3&4 – Bridged to Center (Morel Integra 4" coax)

*Alpine PDX F6 4X150*
Channel 1 – Left underseat sub - Morel 8"
Channel 2 – Right underseat sub - Morel 8"
Channel 3&4 – Bridged to (Sub1) - JL Audio 12W3V3-4

*JBL MS-8*
Power (SL) and (SR) - BMW OEM

*Configuration 1*

Inputs:
Sub1
2-Way Front
1-Way center
1-Way side

Output Channels:

Sub1 - subsonic 20Hz, 6dB/Oct; Sub/Front xover: 150Hz, 24dB/Oct
2-way front – Morel components and the 8” underseat subs; Front hi/lo xover – 260Hz, 24dB/Oct
1-Way Center – Center Hi Pass – 260Hz, 24dB/Oct
1-Way Side – Side Hi Pass – 260Hz, 24dB/Oct
Rear – none

*Configuration 2 (Current Config):*

Inputs:
Sub1
1-Way Front
1-Way center
1-Way side
1-Way rear (underseat subs)

Sub1 – subsonic 20Hz, 6dB/Oct; Sub/Front xover: 150Hz, 24dB/Oct
1-Way front – No MS8 Hi Pass option but the amp has the HP xover set at 260hz, 12dB/Oct
1-Way Center– Center Hi Pass – 260Hz, 24dB/Oct
1-Way Side – Side Hi Pass – 260Hz, 24dB/Oct
1-Way Rear - (8” underseat subs) - Hi Pass – 100Hz,24dB/Oct

I think I will stick with the second configuration but would appreciate everyones thoughts. With this configuration, I think I get better frequency coverage because I'm able to allow the underseat subs and the 4” components to overlap. I would like to be able to set the underseat subs from 100-500Hz but with this configuration I didn’t have that option so I used the Hi-pass as the Lo-pass setting and it will just receive everything from 100Hz and up.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

To add, the gains on both amps are dead center and I did the sweeps with the MS8 volume at -27db. Once it's calibrated, I set the MS8 volume to around -3db which gives more head room for songs at different levels.


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## Sirrus (Feb 24, 2010)

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that with config 2 your underseat speakers are only going to play what is shifted to the rear when you have L7 turned on. That means you are missing out on the majority of the music in that range. It also looks like your crossover points are higher than they need to be, probably resulting in muffled midbass and midrange.

Try this and let us know how it sounds:

Output Channels:

Sub1 - subsonic 20Hz, 6dB/Oct; Sub/Front xover: *80Hz or 60Hz*, 24dB/Oct
2-way front – Morel components and the 8” underseat subs; Front hi/lo xover – *200Hz*, 24dB/Oct
1-Way Center – Center Hi Pass – *200Hz*, 24dB/Oct
1-Way Side – Side Hi Pass – *200Hz*, 24dB/Oct
Rear – none

Also, try to leave the MS-8 volume lower, like -6db to -12db. That way the MS-8 has more room for "boost" adjustments before it hits it's own internal limit.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Weird configurations and/or settings! #2 is def. wrong, sides are not meant to play in front! (and why would you want to overlap?)

Try this:

sub x-over 60Hz, 12dB/oct
Front (2-way) lo/hi xover 150Hz, 24dB/oct
Center 150Hz, 24 dB/oct
Sides (actual rear speakers!) 150Hz, 24dB/oct

If this doesn't sound 1000x better then you have different taste!


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

You're both right on the config #2 but it does sound really good without L7 enabled. With L7 on, it effectively removes the 8" subs. I had it as Sirrus has stated before, at 200hz for all the cross overs but I think it's a bit too low for the 4" speakers which is why I chose 260Hz as the xover point. I will try using 225Hz and see how that sounds.

Thanks for the replies!


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

lavesa said:


> You're both right on the config #2 but it does sound really good without L7 enabled. With L7 on, it effectively removes the 8" subs. I had it as Sirrus has stated before, at 200hz for all the cross overs but I think it's a bit too low for the 4" speakers which is why I chose 260Hz as the xover point. I will try using 225Hz and see how that sounds.
> 
> Thanks for the replies!


The HO set has a FR of *60* - 25000Hz. Now I would probably not try to cross at 60Hz and expect the 4 to scream at upper volume levels, but you can surely cross them at 150Hz and not have to worry about a thing. If you cross over 200Hz, you will have voices coming from under your butt! You want to go as LOW as the speakers allow!


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## Sirrus (Feb 24, 2010)

kaigoss69 said:


> The HO set has a FR of *60* - 25000Hz. Now I would probably not try to cross at 60Hz and expect the 4 to scream at upper volume levels, but you can surely cross them at 150Hz and not have to worry about a thing. If you cross over 200Hz, you will have voices coming from under your butt! You want to go as LOW as the speakers allow!


You know, I originally was crossing over in the 100's but I recently changed it to 200 Hz and I haven't really noticed that problem with voices. Maybe it has to do with the way the underseats are ported, or maybe I just haven't been listening to enough Barry White?


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

The problem is that when I cross them that low, I don't get good mid-base response out of the 8" like I want. When I had config 2 with L7 off, it was perfect mid-base response but I don't want to do without L7 so that's not a valid configuration.

If I xover at 150 or even 200, I'm missing most of the mid-base range that should be between 100Hz-300Hz. The sub over powers and I don't get good mids. Maybe I should try the 2-Way front at 300Hz and the center and rears at 150Hz?

Thoughts?


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## Sirrus (Feb 24, 2010)

You are probably experiencing the same midbass problem as a lot of us e90 folks are. Take a look at the last 10 or so pages of the big MS-8 post in this forum, where we are discussing it. Kaigoss has his own method for dealing with this that others have started duplicating. I tried it, but was unhappy with my low bass response.

In the end I reduced my Sub level by 3 and used the EQ to adjust the bass levels to my liking. The settings are over in that thread, but may not be exactly the same for you.


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

Thanks Sirrus, can you provide a link to that discussion?


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## Sirrus (Feb 24, 2010)

Looks like you found it 

For the audience, this is a good starting point: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...al-advanced/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor-225.html


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## lavesa (May 26, 2011)

If anyone is interested, I have a pair of Focal 100CA1 2-way 4" speakers for sale. One has the mounting tabs removed to fit into the stock location of a BMW center channel. It was only in the car for about 4 weeks. The other speaker and the grills were not installed. It sounded great but I blew my door speakers and decided to go with Morel instead for doors and center channel.

PM me if interested.


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