# 4-5" mid recommendation



## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

I am looking for some new midranges for the doors in my BMW 335i. I can get creative with the mounting, so the depth can be up to 2.5 inches. Looking for an awesome sounding driver that can play from 150 Hz on up in IB. Was looking at the scan 12m, but they seem to be lacking on the low-end when mounted IB. Something of similar quality though for sure. I am aware of the usual big-brand suspects, but was wondering if there are perhaps any hidden DIY gems out there I never heard about? - I will buy tweeters after selecting the mids.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

These look interesting for that application. The price and home audio performance is definitely right. Not very sensitive though.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/seas-mu10rb-sl-h1658-04-4-woven-poly-cone-midrange/


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Looks fairly insensitive to restricted enclosure volume as well. Might not need to open up the back part of the panel that protects the OE driver.


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## rdlhifi (Sep 8, 2013)

kaigoss69 said:


> I am looking for some new midranges for the doors in my BMW 335i. I can get creative with the mounting, so the depth can be up to 2.5 inches. Looking for an awesome sounding driver that can play from 150 Hz on up in IB. Was looking at the scan 12m, but they seem to be lacking on the low-end when mounted IB. Something of similar quality though for sure. I am aware of the usual big-brand suspects, but was wondering if there are perhaps any hidden DIY gems out there I never heard about? - I will buy tweeters after selecting the mids.


Hi kaigoss69

Could You please list Your Equipment (so we can know with which Speakers it must harmonize?) 
Thanks
Dan


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## jnchantler (Apr 11, 2012)

If you can fit the Dyn mw152 is a great driver that won't let you down even at 100hz ib. I don't remember the exact mounting depth but their in my a pillars


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

jnchantler said:


> If you can fit the Dyn mw152 is a great driver that won't let you down even at 100hz ib. I don't remember the exact mounting depth but their in my a pillars



Those will be a ***** to fit, no doubt. But hey, I've been known to accept a challenge now and then!


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

rdlhifi said:


> Hi kaigoss69
> 
> Could You please list Your Equipment (so we can know with which Speakers it must harmonize?)
> Thanks
> Dan



Morel HCW10 midbass, IDMax 15 IB. Amp for mids and tweets is Arx XDi 600 active. Tweeters will be picked to match mids. Tweeters in sail panels, mids in OEM door locations (forward and high up in doors).


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> These look interesting for that application. The price and home audio performance is definitely right. Not very sensitive though.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...u10rb-sl-h1658-04-4-woven-poly-cone-midrange/



Thanks, those look interesting. Will have to look for some reviews.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

This is what I have ruled out so far:

Dyn MW152 - too large in diameter (I may still try them at a later time, but not willing to bastardized my doors at this time))
Scan 12m - won't have enough low end IB
Scan 10f - won't play low enough
Dyn Esotar 430 - too much dinero


Maybes:

L4SE Carbon - haven't seen enough reviews yet
Illusion 4 Carbon - ditto
Morel MW4 - ditto
AudioFrog GB40 - ditto



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mkeets (Oct 6, 2011)

Is there a reason you need it to play all the way down to 150? I haven't heard all the mids out there but have heard a fairly wide variety of 4"ers and I must say the ones I've heard (at the volume I like to listen to) all fall apart around ~250Hz. Even the 12m in a sealed enclosure was at it's best for me at 320-350.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

mkeets said:


> Is there a reason you need it to play all the way down to 150? I haven't heard all the mids out there but have heard a fairly wide variety of 4"ers and I must say the ones I've heard (at the volume I like to listen to) all fall apart around ~250Hz. Even the 12m in a sealed enclosure was at it's best for me at 320-350.



Mid bass are under the seats. I can't stand it any higher than 150hz 24db, mainly due to floor board resonances. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

if you can find a pair of the jl 560 gti mids or the OG 500 gti. The carbon Illusion drivers are very nice too. The Dayton RS125 paper cone looks interesting.

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.ph.../rs125p-4-5-reference-paper-woofer-4-ohm.html


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

what about scan 12mu.. 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...illuminator-12mu/4731t-00-4.5-midrange-4-ohm/


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> what about scan 12mu..
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...illuminator-12mu/4731t-00-4.5-midrange-4-ohm/


too deep!


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

jriggs said:


> if you can find a pair of the jl 560 gti mids or the OG 500 gti. The carbon Illusion drivers are very nice too. The Dayton RS125 paper cone looks interesting.
> 
> Dayton Audio RS125P-4 5" Reference Paper Woofer 4 Ohm - Reference Series - Loudspeaker Drivers By Series - Loudspeaker Components


Thanks, the 560Gti would also require quite a bit of modding to the door panels, which I am not ready to do at this time.

The dayton is just not high-quality enough...I believe it did not fare too well in the 4" mid shootout. I'm really looking for an exceptionally sounding mid.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> too deep!


boooo :thumbsdown:


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I installed a pair of Dayton ND140 for a client of mine in the kicks of a BMW 330i (E36). He enjoyed them quite much. Midbass is great for a driver this size, very clean in the lower midrange. Need a tweeter that can be used lower in frequency. A pair of Scan D3004 or SB Acoustics SBC29 might be suitable with a xover around 2kHz.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/163920-dayton-nd140-4-measurements.html


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

*HIVI B4N*

HiVi, B4N

*Audax HM100C0*

Audax, HM100C0

*Tang Band W4-1337SD *

Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver

*HiVi M4N *

HiVi M4N 4" Aluminum/Magnesium Midbass

*Tang Band W4-1052SD *

Tang Band W4-1052SD 4" Driver 4 Ohm

*Tang Band W4-1757SB *

Tang Band W4-1757SB 4" Aluminum Cone Driver

*Tang Band W4-1805S*

Tang Band W4-1805S 4" Neodymium Midrange Driver

* Vifa NE123W-08 *

Vifa NE123W-08 4" Full Range Woofer Speaker

*HiVi D5.8*

HiVi D5.8 5" Poly Bass/Midrange Shielded

*Fountek FR135EX *

Fountek FR135EX 5" Neodymium Full Range Speaker Driver


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> Thanks, the 560Gti would also require quite a bit of modding to the door panels, which I am not ready to do at this time.
> 
> The dayton is just not high-quality enough...I believe it did not fare too well in the 4" mid shootout. I'm really looking for an exceptionally sounding mid.



The aluminum cone was tested in the shoot out. I suggested the new paper cone version, but never mind if it ain't high end enough.


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> These look interesting for that application. The price and home audio performance is definitely right. Not very sensitive though.
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/seas-mu10rb-sl-h1658-04-4-woven-poly-cone-midrange/


I've never been disappointed with a driver from the Seas Prestige line. I know that's true of many other members here.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Hmm, I could make this one fit, too. Anyone know why the recommended FR starts at 400hz??? It is 8ohm though, not sure if my amp will drop output. 

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81:h1304-08-mca12rc&catid=46restige-midranges&Itemid=463

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> Hmm, I could make this one fit, too. Anyone know why the recommended FR starts at 400hz??? It is 8ohm though, not sure if my amp will drop output.
> 
> H1304-08 MCA12RC
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Maybe because of the low xmax (*.*9mm).


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## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

I have a set of jbl 400gti mids that are pretty awesome let me know if you are interested...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

This mid

Tang Band W4-1658SB 4" Midbass Driver

Tang Band W4-1658SB 4" Midbass Driver

Paired with this tweeter

Vifa XT-25

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/vifa-xt25sc90-04-ring-radiator-tweeter/

Where are you mounting the tweets?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> too deep!


Do you have picks of the interior of the door skin and panel? Or at least the year of the car? I'm wondering if by "too deep" you mean it hits those typical BMW mlv like covers behind the panel, or if it's something mechanical directly behind it, that's keeping you from using any mid out there. Might be able to give you some ideas on how to install them, or them in an easy to build enclosure. With out much modding that is.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Maybe because of the low xmax (*.*9mm).



That makes sense!


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Do you have picks of the interior of the door skin and panel? Or at least the year of the car? I'm wondering if by "too deep" you mean it hits those typical BMW mlv like covers behind the panel, or if it's something mechanical directly behind it, that's keeping you from using any mid out there. Might be able to give you some ideas on how to install them, or them in an easy to build enclosure. With out much modding that is.



2008 e90 sedan. Behind the speaker is the vapor barrier, then glass. The 12m is about the deepest driver that can be mounted behind the door panel, to keep the OEM look. When top mounted, you gain around 10 mm or so, but that's it. Haven't measured exactly.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> 2008 e90 sedan. Behind the speaker is the vapor barrier, then glass. The 12m is about the deepest driver that can be mounted behind the door panel, to keep the OEM look. When top mounted, you gain around 10 mm or so, but that's it. Haven't measured exactly.







Not much space to work with. Looks like your best bet for now, since you aren't going to mod, is to get the best performing midrange that is so good that it also can be crossed over lower. But after having heard an X5 with logic7 extensively, those door panels are going to need heavy reinforcing and treatment in order to keep driver induced vibrations and resonances down. When I've touch the panel at high outputs it just vibrating to hell. That's just gonna kill the advantage and benefits a high end driver has over a lower tier one. 

So basically buy the driver but don't expect much until you give it a proper baffle.

What I would do later on is fiberglass the hell out of the back of that door panel. Then maybe even adhere it onto back of it. Essentially making it one solid baffle. THEN install I-beam or square stock cross members from top to bottom, bolted to rigid point on the door frame and attached somehow to the baffles back. Press fit should work OK I guess, if there is no way to easily fasten the panel to the cross-members. Then remove that vapor barrier and install a sheet of MLV instead (some how). Cutting away the button part in a way that it lets the mid breath into the door but keeps out road noise and water. Maybe a little cover opening away from the driver to the bottom. An AP enclosure of sorts. That part is important because the road noise won't affect the midrange's performance anymore.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

sqnut said:


> This mid
> 
> Tang Band W4-1658SB 4" Midbass Driver
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will go measure to see if the woofer fits. My problem is that most of these don't have many reviews, and I don't want to go buy off of specs alone. I really want a mid with a lot of detail and excellent staging, something that comes close to the 12m or the Esotar 430. I guess if I have to compromise I will give up on the ability to play down to 150Hz, but 200Hz is a must, no doubt. The tweeter is going in the sails, so it has to be a 1" dome tweeter, no bigger. I prefer silk domes. I used to run Dyn MD100's, and I absolutely loved those, so it should be in that same ballpark if that makes sense. I think the Scan D3004's or MD102's, or Morel MT-23's might be on the short list, since I will probably have to cross somewhere around 2,000 - 2,500Hz.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

matdotcom2000 said:


> I have a set of jbl 400gti mids that are pretty awesome let me know if you are interested...


Sent you a PM.


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

The new Audiofrog 2.5" or 4" should be worth a look. The recommended high pass on these is crazy low and the XMAX is stout on both for the size.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

gregerst22 said:


> I'd go with the L4SE's (2.28" depth). Only because I've been impressed with the L3SE's. They can take a lot of power and get loud without losing their composure. Detailed, dyanamic and can cover a lot of frequencies.
> There's an awesome deal for a pair in the classifieds. Totally worth it.



Those were actually the first speakers I considered. Unfortunately, I've got a little bit OCD once in a while, and cutting those full ranges off at about two or 3000 Hz is just not something I'm willing to consider. Plus, I have been running the L3SEs until now, and I just want something different.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

gregerst22 said:


> Have you looked at these? Carbon C4 | Illusion Audio



Yes, but have not seen too many favorable reviews.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

While I'm still mulling over the midrange, let's assume I will have to cross at 2500Hz (because the driver side mid is 60+ degrees off axis). Considering MD102 and Scan 3004 textile dome tweeters. Any other suggestions? - Max 1.1" textile dome, installed in sails.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> While I'm still mulling over the midrange, let's assume I will have to cross at 2500Hz (because the driver side mid is 60+ degrees off axis). Considering MD102 and Scan 3004 textile dome tweeters. Any other suggestions? - Max 1.1" textile dome, installed in sails.


Do you plan on some how aiming them more on axis than the stock position? 

What is your axis view point for the left tweeter based on your seat position?

For my seating position (slight 'gangsta lean'  and further back me being 6'2") they tend to be a little to far off axis. The passenger side is right on axis but even so I'd like it to cross down the center symmetrically so that I am slightly off on both. Off axis to the left for the driver side and off to the right for the passenger side.

Point is if you have a similar seating perspective AND don't want to do a custom aiming then you might want to consider the 3/4" Scan. They extend further up and are more uniform, but they also have a huge .4mm 1-way xmax for a tweeter. Twice that of the 1" versions. That will keep them clean to that needed lower highpass. Maybe even go with the ring radiator which has a flatter power response from 0-30 degrees.

You can EQ the 1" but the power response is going to suffer if you are for the most part off axis.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Do you plan on some how aiming them more on axis than the stock position?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which scan are you referring to? I think the 3004 is 1", no?

I think the OEM tweeter positions shoot straight across at each other, so probably 50-60 degrees off axis for the left one. I can probably do some slight aiming, maybe 10-20 degrees.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> Which scan are you referring to? I think the 3004 is 1", no?
> 
> I think the OEM tweeter positions shoot straight across at each other, so probably 50-60 degrees off axis for the left one. I can probably do some slight aiming, maybe 10-20 degrees.


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-d2004/6020-00-tweeter/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-r2004/6020-00-tweeter-small-ring-radiator/


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> Yes, but have not seen too many favorable reviews.


Have you seen any negative reviews? I had a set for a short time and thought they sounded really nice.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

jriggs said:


> Have you seen any negative reviews? I had a set for a short time and thought they sounded really nice.



I have seen comments by people who basically said that there are better solutions in that price range. Also, I'm looking for "awesome", not "nice".


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Consider my ESB's

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...67120-fs-zapco-esb-ref-set-seas-tweeters.html


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c.../scanspeak-illuminator-d2004/6020-00-tweeter/
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...or-r2004/6020-00-tweeter-small-ring-radiator/



Thanks! So which one would you use if you were in my shoes?


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

gregerst22 said:


> These _might_ what you're looking for. try em and find out.
> 
> Audiofrog GB40 4" midrange car speakers (pair) at Crutchfield.com
> 
> or just get the esotar's.



Thanks, those were already on my list. Very tempting because a little birdie told me they are available locally, but I don't want to be the first and they are a bit out of my budget as well.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

tyroneshoes said:


> Consider my ESB's
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...67120-fs-zapco-esb-ref-set-seas-tweeters.html



Thanks, but I decided to go with a 4".


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

The tweeters Tyrone is selling sound great though. I'm sure the Scans are good, but over $100 for one tweeter? For off-axis high end dispersion that will fit in your car, these are very hard to beat. You can cross them at 2500 4th order without a problem.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> Thanks! So which one would you use if you were in my shoes?


I haven't listen to any of them, but going off of gut feeling alone and seeing that they will be ~45 degrees off axis.....the 3/4" RR.

The good thing is that you can't really go wrong with any of them, especially the 1" dome. There's also lots of info. on here on them. IIRC "ErinH" and "CVjoint" did some testing with the two 3/4".

Edit: revised after remembering your mounting requirement.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

tdgesq said:


> The tweeters Tyrone is selling sound great though. I'm sure the Scans are good, but over $100 for one tweeter? For off-axis high end dispersion that will fit in your car, these are very hard to beat. You can cross them at 2500 4th order without a problem.



What are you running now anyways? 12m? What tweeters?

I'm not sure my ears would like $20 tweeters. Just knowing they are that cheap...I wouldn't be able to get past that. Now If they cost 300 a piece, my ears would probably like them a lot more!


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Right, I'm running the Scan 12m's. My tweeters? The Alpine Spx 177-R (I think I have the right number) Vifa variant. One of NP Dang's favorites, the founder of this forum. It's the same tweeter I just linked you to, except Alpine badged them as a comp set for big bucks.

Anyway, a lot of excellent sounding tweeters out there. You always wonder what you are really paying for. Just so you know it's not about the money, I did install the Jehnert door boards several months back. Here's what I have in them right now:

The Madisound Speaker Store

lol.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

kaigoss69, I mean no offense, but I am really having a hard time understanding this thread. You want the absolute best in a 4" driver with very specific size limits, and you know what those drivers are as there are very few of them out there(and you knew of them before starting this thread), but you don't want to spend much money on them ($499 a pair is too much)...or wait, too cheap and you won't like them on principle...hmmm


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

tdgesq said:


> Right, I'm running the Scan 12m's. My tweeters? The Alpine Spx 177-R (I think I have the right number) Vifa variant. One of NP Dang's favorites, the founder of this forum. It's the same tweeter I just linked you to, except Alpine badged them as a comp set for big bucks.
> 
> Anyway, a lot of excellent sounding tweeters out there. You always wonder what you are really paying for. Just so you know it's not about the money, I did install the Jehnert door boards several months back. Here's what I have in them right now:
> 
> ...


I'm all for using cheap drivers as a dedicated midbass. It's only an octave or so, and there are plenty of choices in the 6.5" range. I used to run the Peerless SLS and they were some of the best for the money. I thought about getting the doorboards at one time, and I researched which drivers to put in there, and came up with similar ones to what you have. But in the end, the wife likes the door pockets to put in her girly stuff, so it was not a fight I was willing to have...

Regarding the Vifa tweeter, I have not found many reviews on it. Let me look some more. Is that the same model as in the Alpine set? I keep reading that the Alpine is a "variant" of the Vifa tweeter, what does that mean??? To me, it has to be exactly the "same", otherwise it's a no-go. I'm weird like that, I know. There has to be a consensus among audio experts that what I'm buying is excellent, otherwise I have a hard time convincing myself that it is indeed what I want. I think it stems from the fact that I have no audio "reference" engrained in my head, that tells me exactly what I want to hear and would allow me to compare the sound of individual components to my ideal sound. I have always gone the route of buying what the experts say is good, and usually that's the more expensive stuff.

That's why I liked the 12m, because it came in closely behind the Dyn in the 4" mid shootout. But then I read that it would not be able to provide the low end I was looking for, so I scrapped that idea. With the Doorboards, I see how you can get away with the 12m, but for me I have a hard time crossing higher than 150 and having artifacts coming from under the seats that belong up on the dash.

Anywhoo, I am working on a deal for some old school mids that I think will be perfect, so the focus is now on the tweeters. Thank for your help so far, Tdgesq, and everyone else!


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

jriggs said:


> kaigoss69, I mean no offense, but I am really having a hard time understanding this thread. You want the absolute best in a 4" driver with very specific size limits, and you know what those drivers are as there are very few of them out there(and you knew of them before starting this thread), but you don't want to spend much money on them ($499 a pair is too much)...or wait, too cheap and you won't like them on principle...hmmm


No offense taken, sir! :thumbsup:

Some of the things I have written may seem contradictory to you, but let me assure you that there is a method to my madness!  

I don't want to be a beta tester, or the first to try a particular speaker. I can't look at a driver's specs and tell you that it will sound great. I'm not sure anyone can. I need real-world subjective reviews by experts to go on. That's why I can't buy the GB40, at least not yet. Second, I have a problem with cheap stuff in an application such as this. I can go to the Dollar store and buy a $1 screwdriver, and be happy with it, because I don't expect anything more from it than the ability to drive a screw. However, with a complex piece of equipment like a speaker, I have a hard time believing that a $20 tweeter can sound as good as a $200 one. I would really have to hear it to believe it. Or, there would have to be plenty rave reviews out there by audio experts. Then, and only then, would I consider buying it. But it is not true that I did know of every driver before I started this thread, I'm not sure where you got that impression. I was looking for a hidden gem and I may have found it, thanks to this thread!


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> I was looking for a hidden gem and I may have found it, thanks to this thread!


Would this be the jbl 400gti, or something else?


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Those vifa xt tweeters are used in lots of $5000+ home speakers (wilson, polk and more)and when alpine and others (polk sr)customizes them, its cosmetic and put a grill/logo and mounting hardware on it. Theyre great on axis. Same tweeter

Would this be the jbl 400gti, or something else?

I mentioned those earlier but yes.

If you can fit a 5.25 do it

vifa vs alpine woofers




























Alpine adjusted them to 4 ohm and changes the basket and color. The tweet is the xt19 in a car audio friendly casing.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

How do the Vifa OT tweeters compare to the XT's? I can't find any reviews on the OT19's


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

the same minus flange. Look for the FR plot to see if it deviates off the typical xt fr


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I don't think the xt19 are going to play low enough to match up with the very off axis mid location, at any appreciable volume. Even worse if you move up to a 5.25 mid. That why I recommended the Scans. The Vifa might perform the same but they won't go down as low (.4mm xmax on the scan 3/4" versus .05mm). No way I would cross them over below 3-3.5kHz. Just because they sound fine doesn't mean they are actually sounding fine. It just means you don't know how they should be sounding because they aren't sounding that good. Something is always great until something better comes along and make you see the flaws in the last one. Primary culpric will be lose of dynamics due to power compression. Just like what midbass suffers from in most installs being limited by size and lowend output based on location and tuning choice. You turn up the volume and it doesn't "sound bad" but clean output stops on dynamic peaks. You lost something and didn't even realize it since it's not obvious.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm in kinda the same boat as you - wanting a great 4-inch'ish mid. If money is no object, 430's or 12M's/12MU's look like the obvious way to go. I'm trying to find something similar for less $. I was surprised to learn that you're trying to replace L3SE's. I've placed those at the top of my "if I could afford anything I want" list for this application.
If your old-school 4's are an improvement, you've got to let me know which ones they are! (JBL's???)

I see you considered an L4SE but didn't want to curtail it's high frequency abilities. How about the L4 Carbon? Unlike the SE, it's touted as a 4" midbass with extension just to 4500K. Crossover to tweeter at 2500-3k should be perfect and might be just what you're looking for.

The Focal 3 KRX3 set sounds very detailed, accurate and open. Mind-blowingly clear and neutral either with the 165 KRX3 set or mixed and tuned with Illusion Carbons. But it was darn near on-axis in both cases so I don't know how it would do in upper-door placement. Bus Fs is 200Hz so it probably won't dig as deep as you're wanting. 

If it's any help, I've had Vifa silk-dome tweeters in my $2k home monitors. Simply awesome. I was thinking of the XT25SC90's to go with "not expensive but sound like they are" Silver Flutes. Instead, I got in line for the nobody's-heard-them-yet XBL tweeter group buy.

I did get to see an AudioFrog comp set a month ago. Looked beefy and very well built, but they were not installed yet so no audition.


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Glad to help anyway I can. I meant that the Alpines are a variant of the Vifa XT19 large flange (non-neo) driver, as I believe is the one I linked you to. Sorry for the confusion. The one I linked to and the Alpine look identical, and I have it on good authority that they are the same driver. Alpine SPX-177R 6.5" round component speakers You can always email Parts Express and confirm.

t3sn4f2 has a point about how attenuated those may be off-axis. The scans will definitely play lower. Then again, who knows what the MS-8 will do to your x/o points anyway. That's your area of expertise, so I leave it to you. Yes, keep the spouse happy above all other considerations. I still haven't been able to adequately explain the doorboards. :worried:


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

jriggs said:


> Would this be the jbl 400gti, or something else?



408Gti


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

tdgesq said:


> Glad to help anyway I can. I meant that the Alpines are a variant of the Vifa XT19 large flange (non-neo) driver, as I believe is the one I linked you to. Sorry for the confusion. The one I linked to and the Alpine look identical, and I have it on good authority that they are the same driver. Alpine SPX-177R 6.5" round component speakers You can always email Parts Express and confirm.
> 
> t3sn4f2 has a point about how attenuated those may be off-axis. The scans will definitely play lower. Then again, who knows what the MS-8 will do to your x/o points anyway. That's your area of expertise, so I leave it to you. Yes, keep the spouse happy above all other considerations. I still haven't been able to adequately explain the doorboards. :worried:


Where do you have yours crossed? Did you angle them more on-axis than the OEM tweeter angles? If not, how do they sound?


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

I have the JBL GTi mids on the way and I think I will wait until I have them installed. I can take some measurements to see exactly where the driver side one drops off, and then I should be in a better position to select a tweeter. As far as the measuring is concerned, just hold the mic in the left ear position, right? Does the measurement volume make any difference?


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## RollingThunder (Jun 18, 2011)

I have Boston 6.53 Component Drivers (no crossovers) this is a 3 way setup from Pro series Old school USA Boston. I managed to find a pair of these crossovers on ebay for $150 or can have some built or build them from this site . also Note that these bad boys are all Neo!
renovations4less at Gmail


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## 12v Electronics (Jun 1, 2008)

I used the Hybrid Audio L4's in my E92. They have to be mounted to the front of the door panel because of the depth, but the L4 SE and SE Carbon's will fit behind the panel. I used the optional grilles with mine and they looked almost factory. Fantastic drivers and I think I had them crossed at 180 on up. The L1 tweeter came in around 9k to finish it off. There is also a flangeless L1v2 tweeter available that will snap into the factory tweeter location.


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## RollingThunder (Jun 18, 2011)

so, that is a not interested?


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

So I ended up getting a JBL 408gti set and am in the process of installing. They are the beefiest 4" drivers I have ever seen. The suspension on these puppies is stiffer than some subwoofers. I bought these because I like old school "they don't build them like that any more" speakers, and there are excellent reviews and recommendations out there for these mids. Gary Biggs used to run the 5" version and did fairly well with them I think. 

Anyway, I ended up getting the Vifa XT19 tweeters since they were cheap and have been recommended to me, and I feel comfortable since they are similar, if not identical, to the Alpine SPX tweeters. 

For now, I'm planning on running them with a cap as a high pass until I runt he extra wires to go active. What would be the lowest crossover you guys would use given the 1000Hz FS?


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

2k with a steep slope, or 2500 at 12dB/oct, based on that.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Its first order, so 3000Hz?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

kaigoss69 said:


> So I ended up getting a JBL 408gti set and am in the process of installing. They are the beefiest 4" drivers I have ever seen. The suspension on these puppies is stiffer than some subwoofers. I bought these because I like old school "they don't build them like that any more" speakers, and there are excellent reviews and recommendations out there for these mids. Gary Biggs used to run the 5" version and did fairly well with them I think.
> 
> Anyway, I ended up getting the Vifa XT19 tweeters since they were cheap and have been recommended to me, and I feel comfortable since they are similar, if not identical, to the Alpine SPX tweeters.
> 
> For now, I'm planning on running them with a cap as a high pass until I runt he extra wires to go active. What would be the lowest crossover you guys would use given the 1000Hz FS?


6000Hz without a RLC. The Fs isn't 1kHz... more like 700-800Hz.

Use a 6,8uF if it's a 4ohm driver ^^


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Hanatsu said:


> 6000Hz without a RLC. The Fs isn't 1kHz... more like 700-800Hz.
> 
> Use a 6,8uF if it's a 4ohm driver ^^


Why so high???


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Had a chance to take some measurements.

Driver side mid, left ear:










Driver side mid, right ear:










Passenger side, between ears:










I'm thinking I should cross around 3k or so, with the 6dB slope. Thoughts?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

xt19 hits 1.5% thd at 3kHz/90dB/1m and 5-6% around 2kHz. That means that driver doesn't like to be used that low. 6dB down at 3kHz and 12dB down at 1500hz sound very reasonable to me.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

OK fair enough, that makes sense. Today I went to Ratschack and only found 10 uF caps, which would give me about 4000 Hz. I think I will try that. It's just temporary anyway.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> OK fair enough, that makes sense. Today I went to Ratschack and only found 10 uF caps, which would give me about 4000 Hz. I think I will try that. It's just temporary anyway.


Were they non-polarized?


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Were they non-polarized?



I think so. 

http://www.radioshack.com/10uf-35v-axial-lead-electrolytic-capacitor/2721013.html


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

kaigoss69 said:


> I think so.
> 
> 10uF 35V Axial-Lead Electrolytic Capacitor - Radioshack


Nope, didn't think they sold those in store. The (-) on the side and the arrow point to the negative pin. Can you use those?....Dunno, I forget. I'll let someone who knows for sure answer that.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I don't think polarized caps should be used. I always get bipolar for passives.

I'd get these instead: http://www.radioshack.com/10-0uf-50v-20-axial-lead-non-polarized-elect-capacitor/2720999.html#q=bipolar&start=11&tab=tab2


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

iIRC it said non-polarized on the drawer.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

iIRC it said non-polarized on the drawer.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

F me.... It's about a 25 minute ride to the nearest Ratshack. In that time I can probably run the speaker wires into the door. Thanks for the help guys.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

kaigoss69 said:


> F me.... It's about a 25 minute ride to the nearest Ratshack. In that time I can probably run the speaker wires into the door. Thanks for the help guys.


lol. Do it


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Don't even try it with an electrolytic cap. They sound like like **** compared to poly or metalized poly. carry on.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Got it all installed on Saturday. So far I'm liking what I'm hearing. It really helps to have a 4 that can play some mid bass. Have it high passed at 120hz 4th order. I'm not sure those mids have seen much play time, so I'm giving them and the new tweets some time to break in. I crossed the Vifas at 3000hz 4th order and it seems to work well.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

A polarized cap on an AC signal...I don't think that is a good idea either.

Unless you take 2 polarized caps of twice the value, and connect the negatives together to make a smaller in value non polarized cap.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

No worries, I went active. Took me a whole day to run the wires, lost a bucket of sweat and a pint of blood, but now I'm glad I did it!


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Congratulations! Running those wires is a really thankless job. I have the scars to prove it.

One thing I forgot to mention, you need to remove the cheap stock tweeter cap in the doors. It's the wrong value for that tweeter and will cross way too high, giving your MS-8 fits. Please post up a review once you have everything dialed in!


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

tdgesq said:


> Congratulations! Running those wires is a really thankless job. I have the scars to prove it.
> 
> One thing I forgot to mention, you need to remove the cheap stock tweeter cap in the doors. It's the wrong value for that tweeter and will cross way too high, giving your MS-8 fits. Please post up a review once you have everything dialed in!



Thanks man, appreciate all your help. The OEM caps are married to the OEM tweeters, so no problem there.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

kaigoss69 said:


> Got it all installed on Saturday. So far I'm liking what I'm hearing. It really helps to have a 4 that can play some mid bass. Have it high passed at 120hz 4th order. I'm not sure those mids have seen much play time, so I'm giving them and the new tweets some time to break in. I crossed the Vifas at 3000hz 4th order and it seems to work well.


Liking the old school JBL gti's! I just got a set of the 500gti's mids and should have them installed by next weekend. Can't wait. I had a pair a few years back and never got to use them, ended up trading them for som other gear. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts as you get more time with them.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

jriggs said:


> Liking the old school JBL gti's! I just got a set of the 500gti's mids and should have them installed by next weekend. Can't wait. I had a pair a few years back and never got to use them, ended up trading them for som other gear. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts as you get more time with them.


Very happy with those GTI's. They rock especially on the bottom and. I have them crossed at 100 Hz with a fourth order slope. They take it in stride.can't find any fault with these mids. How about yours?


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

Me too, very happy with the gti's! They sound great. Mine are the 500's and I halve the high passed at 100 hz.


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