# Sundown SA-2.75FR Three Phase Review



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I was fortunate enough to get in on the offer from Jacob at Sundown Audio for a free set of his SA-2.75FR wideband drivers in exchange for a review. You can see his original post here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/sundown-audio/173150-sa-2-75fr-wideband-reviews-wanted-free-stuff.html

First, some background information on the product is probably in order...

*Product Page*
SA Series Speakers

*Facebook Photo Album*
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.666231543432320.1073741851.114478905274256&type=1

*Description from Facebook Page* 


Sundown said:


> XBL^2 split gap low distortion Neo motor, ~4mm linear excursion one-way, inverted rubber surround, aluminum dust cap, frequency response from ~200 Hz up to 20,000 Hz, built in crossover capacitor, custom tooled OEM fit stamped frame, etc. The MAP price is $79 for a pair from an authorized dealer -- they are rated 20-watts RMS each (conservatively); power handling will increase depending on added HPF crossovers.


*Frequency Response*









*Thiele/Small Parameters*









*Review Format*
My review will actually come in three phases. Phase 1 will be a "direct drop in" approach which is what these drivers were designed for. For this phase they will be run off of head unit power. The target market as I understand it was Chrysler vehicles that use this size driver, but there are lots of manufacturers (like Toyota in my case) that use similarly sized drivers in their OE systems. Phase 2 will be an "upgraded drop in," again off of head unit power. These will have a more substantial baffles to completely separate the front and back wave as well as some possible additional treatment to help direct sound. Phase 3 will be similar to Phase 2 but with the addition of external amplification and full digital signal processing including active crossovers in a 3-way component style installation. 

*Phase 1 Installation Description and Photos*
As mentioned above, Phase 1 is a fairly straightforward installation. The drivers have been installed in the factory dash location in my wife's first generation Scion xB powered off of the head unit. The drivers in question will replace the factory "tweeters" or 3" wideband drivers (depending on who you ask) ran in parallel with the front door mids. The SA-2.75FRs will be paired with the OE 6.5" mids, also powered by the head unit, and an Elemental Designs 11Kv2 in a 0.5 cf sealed enclosure under the front passenger seat, powered by an Elemental Designs NINe.4 amplifier. The head unit is an Alpine CDE-147BT. For processing, this unit has time correction (the dash and front door speakers share the same time correction) as well as a 9 band parametric EQ. 

The box as received from Sundown...









With CD for size comparison...









Opening the box reveals the cardboard cutout templates and the protective foam...









The drivers nestled into their protective foam...









Front and rear of the drivers next to the box...









Next to a CD, again for size reference...









Next to the OE drivers they will be replacing. You can see the factory bolt spacing is wider on most Toyotas than the Chryslers...









A mounting depth comparison next to the OE driver. The OE driver is 13 Ohm, whereas the Sundown is 4 Ohms. I'm not sure the capacitor rating on the OE driver, so I do not know the crossover frequency. The OE drivers in parallel present ~3 Ohm load to the head unit. The replacement SA-2.75FR in combination with the OE mids present a 2 Ohm load. So far, so good though. 









This is the SA-2.75FR stacked face to face on top of the OE driver to see the reduction in "footprint" and to give myself an idea of the first set of baffles I would make...









This is the stock grill that the drivers will sit behind...









And the OE drivers located behind the grill...









Test fitting the SA-2.75FR in my xB (yes, we have two). In this car you can see where the tweeter will be located for the future 3-way component testing. The open cell foam behind the driver is only in my car, not my wife's. This is the same open cell foam that will be used in the Phase 2 and 3 reviews in between a larger baffle. and the grill with an opening for the driver.









The SA-2.75FRs installed in the double stacked and glued plywood sheathing baffles I knocked out with a borrowed jigsaw and my dremel. They aren't the prettiest, but they do the job. I figured this was as close as I was going to get to a direct drop in with my application. And hey, at least they aren't zip tied.   The speaker wire adapters are from Crutchfield: Speaker Wiring Harnesses For select 1996-up Lexus and Toyota vehicles at Crutchfield.com. The terminals were cut off (they are designed to slide on to speaker terminal tabs) and were replaced with bullet disconnects. 









And here it is, all comfy in its new home. The Phase 2/3 baffles will be more square shaped to fill out the voids in the opening and sealed to keep the front and back wave separated. 









Are we ready for an actual review yet? I thought so. 

*Phase 1 Review*
Before starting the process of swapping out the OE drivers, I wanted to get a baseline out of the OE speakers. I set Alpine factory EQ to "FLAT" and ran a 20 Hz - 20 kHz sweep from Audacity on my laptop through the head unit and measured the response with AudioTools for iOS using a calibrated Dayton Audio iMM-6 mic. Certainly not the best, but it has gotten me by in a pinch and provides a means by which to compare the OE drivers with the new fairly objectively. 

Measurements of the entire system with the OE drivers in the dash an FLAT EQ from the Left Ear, Right Ear and Center (mic just in front of my nose) poistion...

























Measurements of the entire system with the SA-2.75FR drivers in the dash an FLAT EQ from the Left Ear, Right Ear and Center (mic just in front of my nose) poistion...

























And finally a quick measurement after my first go at tuning the SA-2.75FRs with th available 9 Band Parametric EQ on the Alpine CDE-147BT. There were some tweaks done after this measurement was taken, and I will likely go back and do some additional measurements once I Have tuned the Sundowns and the OE drivers to the best of my ability. 









So what do all of those tell us? Well, it appears there is a peak in the car just North or South of 1 kHz depending on where the measurement is taken and regardless of which driver was measured. I also can't blame a fairly "jagged" response curve on the driver just yet, either. These are in-vehicle measurements with the drivers in non-optimal mounting locations. The reflections and diffraction in play here are pretty substantial. I would be interested to see how a known top tier performer looked when installed and measured in the same manner. 

The 9 band parametric also revealed it's strengths and weaknesses. Having a 9 band parametric is far superior to a single graphic EQ, but I bet I could have gotten the curve looking and the drivers sounding even better with the 16 band L/R graphic EQ I have in my DEH-80PRS. The EQ'd results are certainly much better than the FLAT EQ that I used a baseline though. And while there is still a significant drop off North of ~12.5 kHz, the improvement up top is noticeable. To be honest, with the off axis firing, I didn't expect these widebanders to perform like an on-axis tweeter. 

*Listening Impressions*
I'll start with my wife, as she is the one who will be driving the car 90% of the time. She hates to give feedback as she doesn't have the best hearing and isn't all that particular to begin with. She will let me know if something just "sounds bad." Her primary comments were that it sounded "crisper" with the new SA-2.75FRs installed and that she was able to hear more detail than she did with the OE drivers. She also commented that all of the sound seemed to be coming from in front of her now, whereas before she was getting additional audio cues from the rear of the car. I attribute this primarily to the new time alignment and EQ adjustments I made than the drivers themselves. 

And what about me? I'm definitely hearing more clarity and a better top end, just like my wife. I also believe that the Sundown drivers are playing much lower than the OE drivers did. The lower frequencies along with the lower impedance has helped to bring the stage up quite a bit, bit it still isn't very focused. It still isn't great, but I don't expect too much when the mid and widebander are playing the same frequencies and sharing the same time alignment settings. 

As I mentioned, I plan to drop the OE drivers back in and try to wring as much performance as possible out of those as well. That would give me a better A/B comparison of the two drivers. (Even if it isn't compltely objective and scientific.) I also hope to have another forum member do the same A/B comparison later this week. If he does, I will have him pop in and add his two cents. 

*Final Thoughts*
While I have seen improvement with the drivers, I am holding out final judgment until I get some more time with them and really get to test them to their full potential. Are they worth the $60 shipped price they are currently selling for an Amazon? It is hard to say. There are a lot of drivers available at that price point from the likes of Parts Express and Madisound. I haven't heard them all, or even very many of them to say how the Sundown might stack up. If simple two bolt swap installation into your Chrysler is a key factor in making your purchase, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the SA-2.75FR. Would I pay $60 for these vs. $80 for OE replacement drivers? In a heartbeat.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Great write-up!


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## norurb (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm in for more review! Thanks. I'd like to see a ported enclosure - maybe Phase 4?


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Great -- thanks for sharing


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Babs said:


> Great write-up!


Thanks, I know it is pretty lengthy. :worried:



norurb said:


> I'm in for more review! Thanks. I'd like to see a ported enclosure - maybe Phase 4?


I think three phases is enough.  Though, I *might* throw in some independent on and off axis response graphs and distortion plots down the line. Unless Erin H gets there first. 



sundownz said:


> Great -- thanks for sharing


Thanks for the opportunity!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

I'd say thoroughly done.


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## ben54b (May 30, 2014)

Great review. Thanks for adding some level of objectivity to it with the fr charts. It's interesting to see what the stock audio is doing as well, and allows a truer a/b test. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## onebadmonte (Sep 4, 2008)

Dang, wish I could've gotten in on this. These little drives sound like real contenders against the Power Bass S-3502. Great review.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ben54b said:


> Great review. Thanks for adding some level of objectivity to it with the fr charts. It's interesting to see what the stock audio is doing as well, and allows a truer a/b test.


Thanks. I did what I could with what I had on hand. If I had more free time, I would actually reinstall the factory radio and get an A/B with the factory processing options (3 DSP settings, not including user EQ adjustments) to see how they compared. That could be helpful for the Scion community, but I just don't have the time for that right now. 



onebadmonte said:


> Dang, wish I could've gotten in on this. These little drives sound like real contenders against the Power Bass S-3502. Great review.


I believe that the Powerbass S-275CF would be the more direct competitor to the SA-2.75FR from Sundown. I have no idea how the performance compares, but the price point is much lower. Just *looking* at the two drivers, I would say the Sundown has much more going for it. Better basket design, XBL^2 Neo motor, nicer cone and the included passive crossover/protection capacitor.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I guess since I'm the particular, dick...


does the bottom of the grill have a foam gasket?

it appears that the screw heads of your mount would interfere with a close-fitting grill, but if the grill floats above the speaker, already raised by the baffle, and doesn't contact the screw heads, it must allow for quite a bit of cancellation?

since the back of the speaker on both the OEM mid and these is showing from on top, it would appear that using these speakers in either instance, is compromised especially if trying to go down to 170 hz, as stated on the box as Frequency Response.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I guess since I'm the particular, dick...


I would expect nothing less... 
I'll answer your questions anyway. 



cajunner said:


> does the bottom of the grill have a foam gasket?


No. 



cajunner said:


> it appears that the screw heads of your mount would interfere with a close-fitting grill, but if the grill floats above the speaker, already raised by the baffle, and doesn't contact the screw heads, it must allow for quite a bit of cancellation?


Yes, the grill has clearance above the screw heads. That was my concern as well, but they snapped right back into place... even with the baffles pushing the screw heads up. I'll have to double check, but I believe the screw heads are also nearly identical to the Xmax of the driver. If the screw heads touch, I've got other potential issues to address. I can try and check clearance tonight when I check to see how much depth there is remaining below the driver for Jacob. 

As I mentioned, there are most certainly reflection and diffraction issues taking place on top of the fact that the front and back wave have not been isolated from each other. Also as mentioned, in Phase 2 the back wave issue will be addressed with a better baffle and a foam "ring" around the driver to help direct sound up and out through the grill. The grills stay though, as does the windshield. 



cajunner said:


> since the back of the speaker on both the OEM mid and these is showing from on top, it would appear that using these speakers in either instance, is compromised especially if trying to go down to 170 hz, as stated on the box as Frequency Response.


Yes. 

As I'm sure you, as well as so many others on DIYMA have stated, the group in here is a subset of a subset of a subset in the overall car audio consumer community. We typically take our installs to a much more "complete" level than the most common install. Even my crappy baffles are more than what 95% of the Scion owners I have seen would have done. 

That is the whole point of my three phase review. First, a simple drop in the way *most* people would do it. Second, an upgraded version that attempts to treat some of the acoustic issues of the installation location and environment. And third, narrowing the bandwidth demand on the driver and applying higher resolution processing to to see just how well the driver might be able to perform in a stock location in a 3-way component configuration.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I would expect nothing less...
> I'll answer your questions anyway.
> 
> 
> ...


so the three phase, I missed that. 

my bad, I just hoped to see a review of these little marvels, that was more "best case scenario" than not.

as with the other review I made a comment, I probably should explain something.

I didn't ask for a set of these when I saw the offer, even though I can and would have done a review. And a good review, maybe not with pretty pictures but I have the ability to cover a lot of ground... but no matter.

I believe after being told several times in various threads some negative ****, that Electrodynamic has me on his **** list. And, I would suffer the disgrace of being rejected by his business partner, and friend because you know, that's how most people roll, I saw evidence of this when I was discussing XBL architecture and sundown replied to a question I had posed to Electrodynamic.

now that I've fully divulged my personal problems, I am looking forward to your coming phases of the review, and I apologize for cluttering up your review thread with my comments, since they were in error.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

No skin off my nose. 

The real reason I wanted to do the three phase review was to make sure that even if they weren't favorable, at least I could say that I was thorough in what I presented. When a manufacturer offers up free product in exchange for a review, I think it is the least you can do. I wanted to provide as many installation scenarios as practically possible so that if someone came looking there would be a better chance that something I had done would be close to what they were considering doing.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

rton20s said:


> No skin off my nose.
> 
> The real reason I wanted to do the three phase review was to make sure that even if they weren't favorable, at least I could say that I was thorough in what I presented. When a manufacturer offers up free product in exchange for a review, I think it is the least you can do. I wanted to provide as many installation scenarios as practically possible so that if someone came looking there would be a better chance that something I had done would be close to what they were considering doing.


I see that, and it seems like a good approach.

And FWIW, I too believe that if given a product for a review, some time and care should follow; if not commensurate with the value of the product as it would equate to time taken, at least to the point of something worthwhile.

My time is worth say, 40 bucks an hour. That's kind of high, I know... but if someone gives me 80 bucks worth of product, then spending 2 hours on a review seems legit, at the low side.

I am a little frustrated by the lack of quid pro quo, some have exhibited thus far.

If these were my product, and I'd have asked for a review, I would certainly hope that people weren't just taking advantage and leaving me in the lurch.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cajunner said:


> I see that, and it seems like a good approach.
> 
> And FWIW, I too believe that if given a product for a review, some time and care should follow; if not commensurate with the value of the product as it would equate to time taken, at least to the point of something worthwhile.
> 
> ...


Reason I did not take part of this... That would not have been fair to Jacob... 

Kelvin


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Reason I did not take part of this... That would not have been fair to Jacob...
> 
> Kelvin


Meaning you don't have the time to dedicate to providing a comprehensive enough review to make the exchange beneficial for both parties?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

rton20s said:


> Meaning you don't have the time to dedicate to providing a comprehensive enough review to make the exchange beneficial for both parties?


Meaning, I could have applied for the free stuff even though I do not have a car to install these into. 

Also meaning, I could still use it in my work car but would not have been able to provide a fast (as in early) and detailed review. 

Work car doesn't have a DSP, so there again... not fair to Jacob. 

Hope some people did not apply to give a review yet they never will - FREE STUFFS!!!!! 

Kelvin


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I can understand the comments of the install as dash locations have to be treated special with concern to areas underneath & surrounding the "baffle" or lack thereof. In a 1st gen S10, I have used the dash location throughout the years with several drivers, but the treatment remains the same. 

Underneath the driver, an application of loose to medium polyfil stuffing shoved down into adjacent crevices, especially off to the sides that lead to empty pockets & greater area directly behind to help simulate an enclosure somewhat. A small gap is left underneath the magnet for a bit of "breathing purpose. This helps kill any odd resonances & the "hollow" sound that usually results. 

The most important part is creating a "gasket" between the grille & driver especially in the S10 where the driver & baffle are attached underneath the stock grille rather than bolted to the actual dash. The attachment to the stock grill still leaves a bit of a gap (1/4"?) since the grille mounts have a sort of stop built into the legs. Of course, it comes without from stock, but a thick enough open cell foam piece is cutout to the entire grille (just enough to not hinder attachment to the dash) leaving an opening with enough diameter of the driver cone & a bit of mounting flange to help funnel sound out into the listening area keeping immediate reflections off of the grille down to a minimum. Careful attention is made so that any holes above & below the driver are covered with enough dense material to help avoid the slightest cancellations. In some cases I've applied a small sheet of MLV underneath the driver & baffle along with OCF atop if possible. 

Seems a bit anal, but in my experiences over the years, every little bit helps in getting a fuller midrange output from dash locations. I understand the phases of testing considering many probably won't give attention to install details, but at some point they will suffer the same consequences regardless the caliber of driver used and nonetheless, the same thoughts of said driver performance.


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