# Why 10's or 12's for midbass??



## sqguy

Can someone clear something up for me?,I notice in the old horn install the would used either a 10 or 12 sub for Midas's,I thought the 6 or 8 incher played that role??


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## SkizeR

because why not? 

but really.. more output


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## XSIV SPL

10s and 12s can certainly handle this role better than smaller drivers. The answer you may be looking for is whether the door or floor can accommodate this particular type of setup.


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## claydo

Who says in horn installs only? I have 10s mated to a 5" midrange and a tweet!

Like skizer said above tho.......it's all about output. Air displacement is where output comes from, and a 10 or 12 simply moves more air than a 6 or 8....


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## subwoofery

claydo said:


> Who says in horn installs only? I have 10s mated to a 5" midrange and a tweet!
> 
> Like skizer said above tho.......it's all about output. Air displacement is where output comes from, and a 10 or 12 simply moves more air than a 6 or 8....


Erin is doing something better... A 12" to a 2.5" mid  

Kelvin


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## sqguy

Oh ok wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers was just curious as to why folks were going this route with horns


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## SkizeR

sqguy said:


> Oh ok wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers was just curious as to why folks were going this route with horns


well you kinda need the extra output with horns considering most horns have a sensitivity around 108+ db


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## subwoofery

To put it simply, in order to keep a good coherence and a dynamic system horns are known for, it simply is better to use a high efficiency driver to pair with horns. 

High efficiency and low frequencies don't mix very well. You either have a 6" driver that plays low well but has a sensitivity of 84dB 1w/1m or you use a 6" driver with a sensitivity of 100dB to pair with a 110dB+ horn that will only play 125Hz-160Hz and up coz it won't let it cross below that. Then you need a driver to keep up with that - a high efficiency midbass (10" and up). 

A few decades ago, this was even worse, small driver just couldn't play low, so you had to use big drivers 8" and up in order to keep up with the rest of the system. 

Kelvin


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## sqguy

I drive a 96 Accord sedan,if I went with horns where would be a good place to install some 10's or 12's since I don't have that rear side space like some other cars do


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## SkizeR

sqguy said:


> I drive a 96 Accord sedan,if I went with horns where would be a good place to install some 10's or 12's since I don't have that rear side space like some other cars do


kick panels are almost always the best option


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## I800C0LLECT

rear deck midbass?


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## SkizeR

I800C0LLECT said:


> rear deck midbass?


well considering this is the HLCD section and hlcd's are usually a 2 way system crossed around 1.5k~.. thats not such a good idea lol


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## I800C0LLECT

SkizeR said:


> well considering this is the HLCD section and hlcd's are usually a 2 way system crossed around 1.5k~.. thats not such a good idea lol


I keep thinking 3-way. Guess it all depends on how the mid-range is covered.

hrmm.

The bigger the horn the lower you can cross Start at the bumper?


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## ErinH

subwoofery said:


> To put it simply, in order to keep a good coherence and a dynamic system horns are known for, it simply is better to use a high efficiency driver to pair with horns.
> 
> High efficiency and low frequencies don't mix very well. You either have a 6" driver that plays low well but has a sensitivity of 84dB 1w/1m or you use a 6" driver with a sensitivity of 100dB to pair with a 110dB+ horn that will only play 125Hz-160Hz and up coz it won't let it cross below that. Then you need a driver to keep up with that - a high efficiency midbass (10" and up).
> 
> A few decades ago, this was even worse, small driver just couldn't play low, so you had to use big drivers 8" and up in order to keep up with the rest of the system.
> 
> Kelvin


this.


HE drivers generally trade off the efficiency for low frequency extension/excursion. so to make up for it, folks use a larger driver in HE systems than they would typically use vs a mid-efficiency system.


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## niko084

In PA systems it's common to see a 10-15" driver used for midbass, how much output do you want and how much room do you have are the questions.

Obviously the 15 used as a midbass is not the same woofer or the same enclosure you'd use for 30hz.


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## ErinH

right. I use a 15" HE (98dB @ 1w/1m) woofer in my HT and still cross it at about 80hz. It mates to the CD/horn at about 550hz or so.


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## sqnut

ErinH said:


> right. I use a 15" HE (98dB @ 1w/1m) woofer in my HT and still cross it at about 80hz.


if the woofer is 15" how big are the subs?


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## Victor_inox

SkizeR said:


> because why not?
> 
> but really.. more output


less movement of VC out of magnetic gap= less distortion.


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## ErinH

sqnut said:


> if the woofer is 15" how big are the subs?


I use standard sensitivity subs. SI HT18, to be exact. 

Again, HE woofers are a different breed. In my case, to get the low end for *HT purposes* out of a HE driver, you'd be talking _at least_ an 18" woofer and a very large ported enclosure. When I was considering going with an HE subwoofer - one that would play flat in to the low 20's - I was spec'ing out 21" B&C woofers in 5-6ft^3 enclosures. I decided that was ludicrous and I went with the HT18's. It's good enough. Ideally I'd add a few more subs but I'm happy with the output of the current setup.


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## sqguy

Well this would be my setup USD BC300 wave guides Beyma 8g40 miss JBL 15" subs now if I wanted to add Midbass where would be the best place to place them front door or rear door in my 96 Accord sedan??


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## subwoofery

In front of you for sure 

Kelvin


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## sqguy

Well thats where the confusion lies for me,every old school horn set had the midbass installed behind them in the rear side panel,can anyone explain why??


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## oabeieo

sqguy said:


> Well this would be my setup USD BC300 wave guides Beyma 8g40 miss JBL 15" subs now if I wanted to add Midbass where would be the best place to place them front door or rear door in my 96 Accord sedan??


Your 8g40 Will work just fine down to 125hz 12tbfor octave, so that roll off will get you into the 80s no problem I would just do your waveguides the g40 and the 15 and that's it


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## subwoofery

sqguy said:


> Well thats where the confusion lies for me,every old school horn set had the midbass installed behind them in the rear side panel,can anyone explain why??


You won't be using a dedicated midrange, those with rear midbasses do. 

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

Mainly the USD cars had midbasses behind the driver.


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## cvjoint

thehatedguy said:


> Mainly the USD cars had midbasses behind the driver.


Hey, I'm trying to contact you by PM.


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## T3mpest

ErinH said:


> I use standard sensitivity subs. SI HT18, to be exact.
> 
> Again, HE woofers are a different breed. In my case, to get the low end for *HT purposes* out of a HE driver, you'd be talking _at least_ an 18" woofer and a very large ported enclosure. When I was considering going with an HE subwoofer - one that would play flat in to the low 20's - I was spec'ing out 21" B&C woofers in 5-6ft^3 enclosures. I decided that was ludicrous and I went with the HT18's. It's good enough. Ideally I'd add a few more subs but I'm happy with the output of the current setup.


Too bad, I've used a B&C21sw152 in a car.. It was pretty sweet lol.


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## cvjoint

10" or 12" is what a midbass should be no matter what. Smaller drivers simply have too much distortion for covering that range. With smaller drivers I end up crossing them 100hz up to limit distortion. The car is a high noise floor environment that requires a lot of tuning at midbass frequencies. On top of that, the midbass range is basically always in use, draws a lot of power. 


My stock 10" Bose drivers sound much better than 90% of the systems I've heard with 6.5" aftermarket drivers.


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## sqnut

cvjoint said:


> 10" or 12" is what a midbass should be no matter what. Smaller drivers simply have too much distortion for covering that range. With smaller drivers I end up crossing them 100hz up to limit distortion. The car is a high noise floor environment that requires a lot of tuning at midbass frequencies. On top of that, the midbass range is basically always in use, draws a lot of power.
> 
> 
> My stock 10" Bose drivers sound much better than 90% of the systems I've heard with 6.5" aftermarket drivers.


I beg to differ. Both my floor standers at home and the woofers in the car doors are 6.75" drivers. In the car the sub is cut at 50hz and at home since the 6.5 is not getting any cabin gain, the sub is cut at 70. Absolutely no shortage of a visceral low end and a tight, punchy and tactile mid bass in either the car or at home. In a car it all comes down to the tune.


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## cvjoint

sqnut said:


> I beg to differ. Both my floor standers at home and the woofers in the car doors are 6.75" drivers. In the car the sub is cut at 50hz and at home since the 6.5 is not getting any cabin gain, the sub is cut at 70. Absolutely no shortage of a visceral low end and a tight, punchy and tactile mid bass in either the car or at home. In a car it all comes down to the tune.


Certainly you can differ when it comes to your own expectations. Your goals must be different than mine. But put me into any car with 6.5 midbass and I'll find it high on the distortion scale and low on the output scale. There is no magic to make it otherwise.

In two of my cars I had 6.5" and 10". The 10" version was hands and feet better. All three of my cars had 10" at one point or another. The best midbass to date was the Seas Excel 10". I used the 7" sibling as a midbass driver in the same car, not even close, the coil would even overheat.


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## sqnut

cvjoint said:


> Certainly you can differ when it comes to your own expectations. Your goals must be different than mine. But put me into any car with 6.5 midbass and I'll find it high on the distortion scale and low on the output scale. There is no magic to make it otherwise.
> 
> In two of my cars I had 6.5" and 10". The 10" version was hands and feet better. All three of my cars had 10" at one point or another. The best midbass to date was the Seas Excel 10". I used the 7" sibling as a midbass driver in the same car, not even close, the coil would even overheat.


It's not about individual expectations, it's being able to reproduce the right sound. To reproduce that right sound, you don't need 10" woofers and you don't need to listen at 120db. I mean you can rock out to cranking the CV SL-15 and think that's better, it's louder yes but better? maybe not so much.

I have no clue what you mean by hearing distortion the minute you listen to a 6.5" woofer, can you qualify the 2-3 ways in terms of how that distortion sounds?


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## cvjoint

sqnut said:


> It's not about individual expectations, it's being able to reproduce the right sound. To reproduce that right sound, you don't need 10" woofers and you don't need to listen at 120db. I mean you can rock out to cranking the CV SL-15 and think that's better, it's louder yes but better? maybe not so much.
> 
> I have no clue what you mean by hearing distortion the minute you listen to a 6.5" woofer, can you qualify the 2-3 ways in terms of how that distortion sounds?


The right sound to me is a speaker that operates within the linear range, producing IMD and HD below audible thresholds and has sufficient cooling to prevent amplitude from decreasing less than 1 db. None of these benchmarks can be reached with a 6.5" at reference levels unless nearfield in a low noise environment (think desktop speakers in a small room). 

In addition to all of the above, a 6.5" operating near its output upper bound is going to vary Q significantly over stroke. In this condition its suspension stiffens exponentially to prevent the voicecoil from hitting the plates or ripping its surrounds. Net result? Rattles galore. 

6.5"s operating as midbass at high output may be perceived as louder than they are due to, unusually high harmonic distortion, frequency irregularities due to high Q operation, suspension noise, and rattles. Take away all that and the fundamental output is puny. This ain't rocket science, you can see HD climb on a mic near the HP filter and read the SPL for the fundamental.


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## sqnut

cvjoint said:


> The right sound to me is a speaker that operates within the linear range, producing IMD and HD below audible thresholds and has sufficient cooling to prevent amplitude from decreasing less than 1 db. None of these benchmarks can be reached with a 6.5" at reference levels unless nearfield in a low noise environment (think desktop speakers in a small room).
> 
> In addition to all of the above, a 6.5" operating near its output upper bound is going to vary Q significantly over stroke. In this condition its suspension stiffens exponentially to prevent the voicecoil from hitting the plates or ripping its surrounds. Net result? Rattles galore.
> 
> 6.5"s operating as midbass at high output may be perceived as louder than they are due to, unusually high harmonic distortion, frequency irregularities due to high Q operation, suspension noise, and rattles. Take away all that and the fundamental output is puny. This ain't rocket science, you can see HD climb on a mic near the HP filter and read the SPL for the fundamental.


^^Thanks for making me smile. That's some hilarious stuff there.


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## cvjoint

sqnut said:


> ^^Thanks for making me smile. That's some hilarious stuff there.


Always happy to make someone smile.


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## subwoofery

sqnut said:


> I beg to differ. Both my floor standers at home and the woofers in the car doors are 6.75" drivers. In the car the sub is cut at 50hz and at home since the 6.5 is not getting any cabin gain, the sub is cut at 70. Absolutely no shortage of a visceral low end and a tight, punchy and tactile mid bass in either the car or at home. In a car it all comes down to the tune.


I do think CVJoint has a point though... 

Home Audio: 
Do your floorstanders have a single 6.75" driver per side or 2 (or even 3)? 
Sealed, ported, or transmission line? 
If your answer is different than 1 and sealed then it's not the same as a system in a car even when you factor cabin gain. 
2 x 6.75" have the cone area of a 9" driver, 3 x 6.75" = >11"
If you do answer 1 and sealed, then you've obviously not heard a visceral low end produced by a much larger driver (10" and above) producing midbass... I have a 12" midbass @ home and my car midbasses don't sound anything like it 

Car audio: 
With so much EQ cuts in the midbass freqs to "counter" vehicle acoustics while keeping everything linear, it's easy to see why bigger drivers will always provide a better overall sound. 
A car is much noisier than a house (mine is anyway ) so you can easily push those small drivers to heat a coil or play above the linear Xmax. I know that car audio is considered nearfield, even though I've never burned a speaker, I could feel the heat coming from my Focal midbasses once in a while in my other vehicle. 

Kelvin


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## cvjoint

In car speakers need a ton of EQ too. Think that you have a 6db dip in response. To bring those frequencies in line with all the others you need to quadruple the power to that speaker for those frequencies. While the coil may not burn, because only a few frequencies are targeted, the speaker will surely spike harmonic distortion every time it needs to reproduce that problem frequency. With a typical midbass in a properly tuned car there will be spikes in distortion at both the HP frequency and the where peaks occur before equalization. If you boost 400hz by 6db you are very likely to hear loads of distortion from a 6.5". 

Guys with horns and PA large midbass drivers can tune their cars without spiking harmonic distortion at reference listening levels. One good reason to go for high spl/low distortion drivers.


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## sqnut

subwoofery said:


> I do think CVJoint has a point though...
> 
> Home Audio:
> Do your floorstanders have a single 6.75" driver per side or 2 (or even 3)?
> Sealed, ported, or transmission line?
> If your answer is different than 1 and sealed then it's not the same as a system in a car even when you factor cabin gain.
> 2 x 6.75" have the cone area of a 9" driver, 3 x 6.75" = >11"
> If you do answer 1 and sealed, then you've obviously not heard a visceral low end produced by a much larger driver (10" and above) producing midbass... I have a 12" midbass @ home and my car midbasses don't sound anything like it
> 
> Car audio:
> With so much EQ cuts in the midbass freqs to "counter" vehicle acoustics while keeping everything linear, it's easy to see why bigger drivers will always provide a better overall sound.
> A car is much noisier than a house (mine is anyway ) so you can easily push those small drivers to heat a coil or play above the linear Xmax. I know that car audio is considered nearfield, even though I've never burned a speaker, I could feel the heat coming from my Focal midbasses once in a while in my other vehicle.
> 
> Kelvin


I look at it slightly differently. You need cone sizes that between them can play the 10 octaves at realistic levels. Next, most content below ~100hz is in mono. Now lets say an 8" mid plays 60 hz, 4 db louder than a 6.75, fair enough. BTW, comments like low end from an 8" is more visceral are a bit misleading, because visceral is as much about the low end fundamentals as itr is about the mid to upper mid harmonics and the balance of response between them. Fact is the 8" mid is simply louder.

Back to the 6.5" that's 4 db lower at 60. Now I have two options, double the power on the woofer, or just raise the xover point between sub/mid a bit so that the sub is playing more of the 60hz. I don't necessarily need 8" mids to play 60 hz at 'real' levels. Also keep in mind IB measurements of most speakers mean little in a car, including the low end on a mid bass. Cabin gain is already making the low end performance of a 6.75 at par with the IB specs of an 8". 

What I will accept is that the 8" will play cleaner at 120db than the 6.75, but I don't listen at those levels in any case. For more normal 100-110 db levels, 6.75 aren't going to give you less visceral low end than an 8" provided your tune is up to speed. The 8"s will play louder but more visceral and life like? I don't think so. Getting your 6.75-7" mid in a sealed / ported enclosure or on a slightly more ghetto mounting the mid on two 3/4" mdf rings will proper deadening will really isolate the driver. You can't imagine the true potential of your humble 6.75 till you mount it properly. 

Folks claiming to be able to hear HD on a 6.75 or magnet / coil etc noises are well :shrug:. There are so many of these big woofer threads going, that the comment on HD and coil noise may have been in a different thread.


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## cvjoint

sqnut said:


> I look at it slightly differently. You need cone sizes that between them can play the 10 octaves at realistic levels. Next, most content below ~100hz is in mono. Now lets say an 8" mid plays 60 hz, 4 db louder than a 6.75, fair enough. BTW, comments like low end from an 8" is more visceral are a bit misleading, because visceral is as much about the low end fundamentals as itr is about the mid to upper mid harmonics and the balance of response between them. Fact is the 8" mid is simply louder.
> 
> Back to the 6.5" that's 4 db lower at 60. Now I have two options, double the power on the woofer, or just raise the xover point between sub/mid a bit so that the sub is playing more of the 60hz. I don't necessarily need 8" mids to play 60 hz at 'real' levels. Also keep in mind IB measurements of most speakers mean little in a car, including the low end on a mid bass. Cabin gain is already making the low end performance of a 6.75 at par with the IB specs of an 8".
> 
> What I will accept is that the 8" will play cleaner at 120db than the 6.75, but I don't listen at those levels in any case. For more normal 100-110 db levels, 6.75 aren't going to give you less visceral low end than an 8" provided your tune is up to speed. The 8"s will play louder but more visceral and life like? I don't think so. Getting your 6.75-7" mid in a sealed / ported enclosure or on a slightly more ghetto mounting the mid on two 3/4" mdf rings will proper deadening will really isolate the driver. You can't imagine the true potential of your humble 6.75 till you mount it properly.
> 
> Folks claiming to be able to hear HD on a 6.75 or magnet / coil etc noises are well :shrug:. There are so many of these big woofer threads going, that the comment on HD and coil noise may have been in a different thread.


So let me get this straight. You believe 110db to be "normal." How do you propose you get that with a single 6.5" speaker? The only 6.5" that can do that continuously is a midrange pro-audio driver. That's why you need a 10", so you can play midbass and low midrange at that level. 

That's not taking into account EQ headroom needs or distortion. Here is a good link on distortion: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Is It a Good Indicator of Sound Quality? | Audioholics

See the link above. At 50hz and 100hz, even at 110db, the threshold for audible third order distortion alone is just over 1%. No way in hell you are getting that with a 6.5" that is a midbass. 

Consider the SLS 6.5" Anywhere above 100db it produces over 3% distortion both second and third order harmonics. And that's a stout midbass oriented driver. With an 82db sensitivity it's nowhere near sensitive enough to reproduce 110db continuously. A 10" B&C driver by contrast, will have 3 times the midbass output while accepting LP crossover a full octave higher. That's what a 10" can do. 

I can see now that you simply overstate the ability of 6.5" drivers. Just do a couple of back of the envelope calculations. The math doesn't work out for what you consider normal output.


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## sqnut

I'm not listening to midbass alone, the 110 db is combined response with all drivers playing. I asked you this earlier and you didn't respond. Forget the article for a bit (BTW Audioholics as a reference source?). What does 2nd and 3rd order distortion sound like at 50hz? 100hz? at what frequency is the 6.75" driver making the 3% distortion? 20 hz? Can you really hear that? I think it's you that needs to move from theory to application.


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## cvjoint

sqnut said:


> I'm not listening to midbass alone, the 110 db is combined response with all drivers playing. I asked you this earlier and you didn't respond. Forget the article for a bit (BTW Audioholics as a reference source?). What does 2nd and 3rd order distortion sound like at 50hz? 100hz? at what frequency is the 6.75" driver making the 3% distortion? 20 hz? Can you really hear that? I think it's you that needs to move from theory to application.


There is nothing wrong with theory or empirical work, as long as it's done right. But what I was referring to is my own testing in car with SLS 6.5 and a fully calibrated mic testing system. Stated distortion is over the range 60hz to 80 hz so the two datapoints in the study are relevant. Of course you can hear 2nd and 3rd order distortion for a 60hz fundamental. It's well within our audible range. Again, the study clearly tells you what is audible and what is not at 3 different levels of output and many fundamental frequencies. 

110db combined...ok. So if I have ghetto blaster subwoofer at full swing near 130db the average SPL is a good measure because... I though we are talking about SQ systems tuned for reference listening. Each driver should be able to reproduce it's own frequency band at "normal levels" as you stated. 

Audioholics is QUOTING a study. If you disagree with the results let me know what you critique is of the underlying study, not the website that quotes it.


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## sqnut

cvjoint said:


> There is nothing wrong with theory or empirical work, as long as it's done right. But what I was referring to is my own testing in car with SLS 6.5 and a fully calibrated mic testing system. Stated distortion is over the range 60hz to 80 hz so the two datapoints in the study are relevant. Of course you can hear 2nd and 3rd order distortion for a 60hz fundamental. It's well within our audible range. Again, the study clearly tells you what is audible and what is not at 3 different levels of output and many fundamental frequencies.
> 
> 110db combined...ok. So if I have ghetto blaster subwoofer at full swing near 130db the average SPL is a good measure because... I though we are talking about SQ systems tuned for reference listening. Each driver should be able to reproduce it's own frequency band at "normal levels" as you stated.
> 
> Audioholics is QUOTING a study. If you disagree with the results let me know what you critique is of the underlying study, not the website that quotes it.


Along with theory factor in how our ears work. Look up the ears sensitivity across frequencies. You're not directly hearing the second order distortion in the 50-70hz range, you're hearing it's effect which s to make the lower end warmer. The 3rd order distortion that you hear when you really the crank the 6.5 beyond normal levels is most likely in the mid range frequencies NOT the low end.


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## cvjoint

sqnut said:


> Along with theory factor in how our ears work. Look up the ears sensitivity across frequencies. You're not directly hearing the second order distortion in the 50-70hz range, you're hearing it's effect which s to make the lower end warmer. The 3rd order distortion that you hear when you really the crank the 6.5 beyond normal levels is most likely in the mid range frequencies NOT the low end.


So your theory is now that we like distortion? Isn't it our job as enthusiasts to understand what sounds like distortion and minimize it? 

Here is one of Erin's test of Seas' best 7" woofer at only 96db @ 1M:

http://medleysmusings.com/seas-w18nx-001/

There is audible distortion anywhere under 70hz at only 96db. For a typical midbass installation 96db is about the most you will get from this top notch 7" woofer while keeping distortion low. Maximum continuous output is about 105db before the coil gives up. Nowhere close to your "normal" output goals.


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## oabeieo

Oh boy


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## beak81champ

I dig that there was an awesome discussion of 2 different viewpoints without personal jabbing and BS. These discussions are where I learn the most about what is going on with sound systems, drivers, etc.


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## trebor

sqguy said:


> Well thats where the confusion lies for me,every old school horn set had the midbass installed behind them in the rear side panel,can anyone explain why??




I believe those were for sound reinforcement purposes, utilizing the Haas effect, and not as dedicated midbasses. It is more likely that the rear "subs" in those cars, being pro audio drivers, were comfortable playing all the way up to the horn. They were typically the most on axis and had the better pathlength difference. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patrick Bateman

SkizeR said:


> well considering this is the HLCD section and hlcd's are usually a 2 way system crossed around 1.5k~.. thats not such a good idea lol


My 2001 Accord had HLCDs under the dashed crossed to B&C eights on the rear deck. It worked surprisingly well.

Admittedly, I wound up moving the eights to the firewall, but that location wasn't a whole lot better.

That car was actually the thing that got me interested in arrays. Because it occurred to me that if the midbass on the rear deck sounded good, and the midbass at the firewall sounded good, then what if you did BOTH.

At this point I could never imagine going back to using anything but arrays for midbass, it just demolishes a conventional set up. Of all the zany things I've pushed on this forum, it's the one thing that's a no-brainer.


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## Patrick Bateman

subwoofery said:


> <snip>
> A car is much noisier than a house (mine is anyway ) so you can easily push those small drivers to heat a coil or play above the linear Xmax. I know that car audio is considered nearfield, even though I've never burned a speaker, I could feel the heat coming from my Focal midbasses once in a while in my other vehicle.
> 
> Kelvin


Cabin gain might be part of the problem.

Here's an example: 

In my Synergy Horn projects, the 'tricky' part is always the gap between the midrange and the tweeter. Even with a horn loaded midrange, it it sometimes impossible to 'fill in' the gap between the midrange and the tweeter. This is because the horn loaded midrange is insanely efficient at 750hz, but at 1500hz it's output is dropping like a rock.

We have a similar issue in the car. The bottom octave is insanely efficient due to cabin gain. But the octave from 50-100hz is not. This is due to two issues:

1) In a car we get a dip around 60hz. This is due to the geometry of the cabin. It can take a TON of power to fill in that hole. (Or you can use an array to fix that, but I digress.) A six dB 'boost' at 60hz requires you to *quadruple* the power going to your midbass.
2) People keep running their midbasses infinite baffle for some reason, even though infinite baffle is anything but infinite in a door, and what they're really doing is running dipole. And dipole is inefficient as ****.


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## Orion525iT

trebor said:


> I believe those were for sound reinforcement purposes, utilizing the Haas effect, and not as dedicated midbasses. It is more likely that the rear "subs" in those cars, being pro audio drivers, were comfortable playing all the way up to the horn. They were typically the most on axis and had the better pathlength difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not just that reason. The most obvious is that there is simply enough space there to fit large drivers. The other reason is that it does help somewhat with 60hz region that is such a problem for many. You can build sealed boxes there. You can deal with rattles easier than with a door mount. It won't pull the stage back if they are set just behind you and wide.


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## benny z

Patrick Bateman said:


> ...if the midbass on the rear deck sounded good, and the midbass at the firewall sounded good, then what if you did BOTH.
> 
> At this point I could never imagine going back to using anything but arrays for midbass, it just demolishes a conventional set up. Of all the zany things I've pushed on this forum, it's the one thing that's a no-brainer.


**** i love you. :stupid:

the irony of this quote is that it's contained in a box.


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## Orion525iT

Patrick Bateman said:


> We have a similar issue in the car. The bottom octave is insanely efficient due to cabin gain. But the octave from 50-100hz is not. This is due to two issues:
> 
> 1) In a car we get a dip around 60hz. This is due to the geometry of the cabin. It can take a TON of power to fill in that hole. (Or you can use an array to fix that, but I digress.) A six dB 'boost' at 60hz requires you to *quadruple* the power going to your midbass.
> 2) People keep running their midbasses infinite baffle for some reason, even though infinite baffle is anything but infinite in a door, and what they're really doing is running dipole. And dipole is inefficient as ****.


1) I have done two things, one is to stick the drivers in places that most would consider to be esoteric. The second thing is that I am building bandpass boxes for the midbass, and stuffing them in places you never thought they would go. You can do this because you can get insane output levels from BP boxes and you don't need huge drivers to get there. Also, with some thought you can work the tuning and BP peak into the problem areas and eq the rest. At least, that's the plan . But BP boxes are not easy to build, and I can assure you these are the most complicated boxes I have ever attempted. 

2) People will still stick to the "IB" in the door no matter how much you argue against it. I still think it is the worst possible spot because you are literally sitting at the edge of the dipole baffle, with only felted strip of rubber between. But people swear by it. 

I am curious if one can get away with just two midbass drivers for an "array" by simply placing them eccentrically with the problem frequencies in mind.


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## Patrick Bateman

Orion525iT said:


> 1) I have done two things, one is to stick the drivers in places that most would consider to be esoteric. The second thing is that I am building bandpass boxes for the midbass, and stuffing them in places you never thought they would go. You can do this because you can get insane output levels from BP boxes and you don't need huge drivers to get there. Also, with some thought you can work the tuning and BP peak into the problem areas and eq the rest. At least, that's the plan . But BP boxes are not easy to build, and I can assure you these are the most complicated boxes I have ever attempted.
> 
> 2) People will still stick to the "IB" in the door no matter how much you argue against it. I still think it is the worst possible spot because you are literally sitting at the edge of the dipole baffle, with only felted strip of rubber between. But people swear by it.
> 
> I am curious if one can get away with just two midbass drivers for an "array" by simply placing them eccentrically with the problem frequencies in mind.


Couldn't agree more. I nearly cut my thumb off trying to make my Beolab lenses, and then a couple years later I got into the bandpass midbass thing. Making bandpass midbasses is like making a bandpass sub. Except each enclosure takes twice as long because they're so small, and you need four of them not one 

It's a complete p.i.t.a. and the main reason I bought a 3D printer.


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## SkizeR

Orion525iT said:


> 2) People will still stick to the "IB" in the door no matter how much you argue against it. I still think it is the worst possible spot because you are literally sitting at the edge of the dipole baffle, with only felted strip of rubber between. But people swear by it.


idk, ive never seen anyone swear by sticking to the doors. kicks, sure. but never doors


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## cvjoint

There are only two difficulties with doors, rattles, and nulls if you have a large center tunnel. The doors leak, yes, but I've never seen cancellation worth worrying about. This is something you have to test and see for yourself. You do not get dipole behavior with door mounted woofers period. 

The difficulty with kicks is getting enough airspace. You either trade off spl or a low Q. 

I prefer the doors, I need both output and a low Q. I can deal deal with rattles in many ways.


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## Orion525iT

cvjoint said:


> There are only two difficulties with doors, rattles, and nulls if you have a large center tunnel. The doors leak, yes, but I've never seen cancellation worth worrying about. This is something you have to test and see for yourself. You do not get dipole behavior with door mounted woofers period.


To be extra clear, I certainly didn't mean to implicate that you get a dipole "behavior", but without question you are at the edge of such a baffle. There is a strip of rubber that separates, and the output loss will be dependent how well that strip seals. That is very car dependent.

Bottom line is you still lose output, and to compensate you end up throwing more power at them, which then leads to more issues with door rattles, ect. Or you could go with larger drivers and add more power to them too, ect. 

In the end, that the typical 60hz suck out and the loss of output from an incomplete seal at the window felt will often lead people to seek some form of brute force approach. My point is that there are other options.


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## cvjoint

Orion525iT said:


> To be extra clear, I certainly didn't mean to implicate that you get a dipole "behavior", but without question you are at the edge of such a baffle. There is a strip of rubber that separates, and the output loss will be dependent how well that strip seals. That is very car dependent.
> 
> Bottom line is you still lose output, and to compensate you end up throwing more power at them, which then leads to more issues with door rattles, ect. Or you could go with larger drivers and add more power to them too, ect.
> 
> In the end, that the typical 60hz suck out and the loss of output from an incomplete seal at the window felt will often lead people to seek some form of brute force approach. My point is that there are other options.


You lose output in some octave(s), but how low is it? That's the key. Above that frequency with IB like air spring sensitivity is actually improved and the Q is lower, much lower than in a small kick box. In all my builds the door speakers play flat to under 60hz, which is lower than I dare cross any midbass, even my 10s. I say it's a leaky box and nowhere close to a dipole. It's not good enough as a sub, but definitely works well for midbass. Every location is a box of compromises. I like the ones for the doors. 

The 60hz suckout is either on just one side (driver's) when there is cancellation of the center tunnel, or from all directions when it's the cabin dimensions at work. In either case it's not the door per se, but I agree that with kicks placed more on axis if it's the center tunnel that's the culprit it is an improvement. 

The kicks have one huge downside, and that is airspace. No good speaker was ever developed with a huge Q. I've had my share of high Q boxes and I'm totally done with them. If you want a low Q and high output in kicks there is only one way, and that is to gut the car frame to open the box into the frame of the car or exterior. In some 2 pedal cars there may be a way to build a big enough box too. Either way, you'd be driving an auto car or a neutered chassis. Not exactly worth the tradeoff to me.


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## danno14

> Either way, you'd be driving an auto car or a neutered chassis. Not exactly worth the tradeoff to me.


Yeah, but sometimes "life situations" dictate a slushbox  
So I'm going to take advantage of that as much as possible, yet within reason. 



Unless I can't be made to be reasonable!!!


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## cvjoint

danno14 said:


> Yeah, but sometimes "life situations" dictate a slushbox
> So I'm going to take advantage of that as much as possible, yet within reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless I can't be made to be reasonable!!!


If life situations means "wife" then get another one. There should be no reason not to drive stick, unless disabled.


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## danno14

cvjoint said:


> If life situations means "wife" then get another one. There should be no reason not to drive stick, unless disabled.


Lol! Did that! The cost could have purchased a number of two seaters, but it was well worth it! As a matter of fact, I celebrated via buying a new porsche and cool house with the bit that was left over 

Now, the "life situation" is 9yo and 7yo that my subsequent wife gave to me (well worth the "cost", by a large order of magnitude). My commute is in what is effectively a two seater, with +2 in the back..... "Auto", as electric cars don't have a manual gearbox (remember>commuter). We also have her slush box suv kid hauler, and the inevitable large-comfy-sedan for my 6'6" frame and my kiddos and niece in the back, who are on track to come close to or exceed me. Not really the "right thing" for a manual, nor does anyone make one. Mercedes even puts the lower gear count auto in what I currently have, due the the power it has to transmit. I also always have A few other cars available to play with that have three pedals. 

All That said, I had occasion to play with a slick car similar to yours early this week, and I would agree > the manual is my preferrence. The car Is actually for sale, and I could help get a great price for someone. The car in this article: 2016 Callaway SC757 Z06 Corvette | MotorWeek
If you know someone looking, pass it along.


Tldr- back on topic


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## cvjoint

danno14 said:


> Lol! Did that! The cost could have purchased a number of two seaters, but it was well worth it! As a matter of fact, I celebrated via buying a new porsche and cool house with the bit that was left over
> 
> Now, the "life situation" is 9yo and 7yo that my subsequent wife gave to me (well worth the "cost", by a large order of magnitude). My commute is in what is effectively a two seater, with +2 in the back..... "Auto", as electric cars don't have a manual gearbox (remember>commuter). We also have her slush box suv kid hauler, and the inevitable large-comfy-sedan for my 6'6" frame and my kiddos and niece in the back, who are on track to come close to or exceed me. Not really the "right thing" for a manual, nor does anyone make one. Mercedes even puts the lower gear count auto in what I currently have, due the the power it has to transmit. I also always have A few other cars available to play with that have three pedals.
> 
> All That said, I had occasion to play with a slick car similar to yours early this week, and I would agree > the manual is my preferrence. The car Is actually for sale, and I could help get a great price for someone. The car in this article: 2016 Callaway SC757 Z06 Corvette | MotorWeek
> If you know someone looking, pass it along.
> 
> 
> Tldr- back on topic


Having room to park extra cars definitely opens up some possibilities. 

I understand the eco friendliness of electric cars. That said the only sacrifices I make for eco friendliness is to use a catalytic converter and use of higher gears when I'm cruising. 

Kids are not an excuse, lots of neat 4 seaters with manual. Porsche and BMW make some nice cars in stick with a rear seat. My favorites are the na 911 GTS and the V8 M3. A bigger kid/wife hauler would be the new M5. 

Detroit Auto Show had suppliers showing options for manual hybrid cars. The technology is there. If the buyers demand manual hybrid cars auto makers will make them.


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## mitchyz250f

Have you ever sat 10 ft away from someone playing the drums? It can easily be painful. It's not about a thump but a snap you can feel through your body and into your bones. Have you ever heard that sound come from a 6.5" mid-bass? I haven't no matter how much power they got or how they were eq'd or how much they cost. 

In my home 7.1 system there are seven MTM's with two 6.5s and each speaker gets 100 watts. That's fourteen 6.5s and 700 watts. My home system does many things better than my car system but in dynamics it not even close. My car has two 12" mid-basses and 160 watts it sounds like I'm sitting next to a set of drums. Listen to MJ's 'Billy Jean' on a system that has big mid-basses and you will be shocked at how different it sounds.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruc...llie-jean.html

My friends listen to my HT system and always say my car sounds better which is why my next HT will have a WMTMW with two 15" mid-basses, two Audax PR170MO and CP21F per side.


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## ErinH

mitchyz250f said:


> Have you ever sat 10 ft away from someone playing the drums? It can easily be painful. It's not about a thump but a snap you can feel through your body and into your bones. Have you ever heard that sound come from a 6.5" mid-bass? I haven't no matter how much power they got or how they were eq'd or how much they cost.
> 
> In my home 7.1 system there are seven MTM's with two 6.5s and each speaker gets 100 watts. That's fourteen 6.5s and 700 watts. My home system does many things better than my car system but in dynamics it not even close. My car has two 12" mid-basses and 160 watts it sounds like I'm sitting next to a set of drums. Listen to MJ's 'Billy Jean' on a system that has big mid-basses and you will be shocked at how different it sounds.
> 
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruc...llie-jean.html
> 
> My friends listen to my HT system and always say my car sounds better which is why my next HT will have a WMTMW with two 15" mid-basses, two Audax PR170MO and CP21F per side.


You're also likely 2-3x the distance from your speakers in your HT compared to the distance from your speakers in your car. That's the reason inwent pro audio with 15's and a 2" CD in my home theater.


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## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> You're also likely 2-3x the distance from your speakers in your HT compared to the distance from your speakers in your car. That's the reason inwent pro audio with 15's and a 2" CD in my home theater.


...and you have a much smaller "room" to energize in a vehicle as well!




mitchyz250f said:


> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruc...llie-jean.html


Hey Mitch, FYI that Link was dead for me and I'm registered on that site. I believe that you might have been referring to the thread about _Bruce Swedien_ tracking/mixing _MJ's *Billie Jean*_ track for the _Thriller_ album?

So I think you meant this thread...

The REAL Story on "Billie Jean"...

and another good one...

Critical listening with Bruce Swedien


FYI, I'm a drummer, so I can relate to your experience of sitting 10ft away from someone playing the drums...or even closer. 

If you all will for a moment, think about the _SIZE_ of the "piston" or "cone area" of an actual snare drum head which is usually 14", or better yet, a kick drum that is between 18"-26" in diameter, and usually 22" for most Rock/Pop in the 80's era. That should give you an idea of how much air needs to be displaced to recreate the full impact and dynamics of drums faithfully.

In regards to the snare drum, add in the snare wire buzz, plus there is often the piercing sound or "crack" of a "rim-shot" which combines the simultaneous strike of the drum head's low to medium fundamental tone and upper harmonics, with a strike to the metal rim or hoop of the drum, which produces a "hammer-on-steel" result as the strike resonates through the shell of the drum, which were usually a 1-3mm thick steel, brass, or aluminum shell for most pop/rock albums in that era.

So yeah, "there's no replacement for displacement" as the old saying goes.  And any compression/limiting will seriously squash the dynamics, though the untamed dynamics might also torch your tweeters or other drivers, LOL. Most pro-sound/pro audio "speaker management" processors have a dedicated limiter section just for speaker protection. 

Dynamic microphones such as the classic studio standard Shure SM57 are almost always employed on the snare drum exclusively, and larger diaphragm dynamic mics for the kick drum. Sometimes ribbon microphones are used (with careful consideration for SPLs and air blasts), as both dynamic and ribbon mics don't saturate or experience power compression with high-level dynamics like condenser (capacitor) microphones do. Small or more so Large Diaphragm Condenser mics are typically used for the Overhead mics and on the rest of the kit to capture detail with low noise at a slightly further distance to source.


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## cvjoint

Home audio has low noise floor, proper azimuth angle, low resonance, enough space for dipole, and the ability to place subs near floorstanders. 

I don't see how car audio can ever get close to a proper home audio system. Home audio is literally limitless. Even a full size van is a crappy tin can room where you are sitting in the corner. 

The beauty of car audio is that you can play loud and stomp on a V8 to make it roar at the same time. 

I played Need For Speed II soundtrack songs at full tilt at Infineon raceway. I literally drove like a maniac, did full drifts through the carousel and even passed both Mclarens in advanced group. It turns out NFS tracks unleash the dragon. I recommend this experience to everyone.


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## BMW Alpina

Subscribed


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## bbfoto

I didn't want to clutter up this thread with Off-Topic information, but I thought that it might be interesting to some of us here that are interested in recreating realistic Drum Kit & Percussion Impact and Dynamics in their Car audio system....


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-home-pro-audio/320530-drum-recording-dynamics-impact-audio-examples-different-mic-types-placement.html


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## mitchyz250f

ErinH said:


> You're also likely 2-3x the distance from your speakers in your HT compared to the distance from your speakers in your car. That's the reason inwent pro audio with 15's and a 2" CD in my home theater.


That is true. In my car the mid-basses are in my quarter panels maybe 3 1/2 ft on average from my head. In my home the 7 speakers are all 11 ft from the main listening area. But at one time I had those same 12" mid-basses and Audax midranges playing in my house playing (60w/ch) and they were much more dynamic. No comparison. And that was just 2 channels. If you stand 12 ft from my car with the hatch open it sounds more dynamic than my home system. I have never heard a dynamic HT system with a dynamic mid-bass that used 6.5 then went directly to the subs. To me the sound of a large speaker moving 1mm at 105 db sounds different than a 6.5 moving 4mm. I think you hear some difference to or you wouldn't have tried so hard to get 10" mid-basses in the civic.


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## ErinH

mitchyz250f said:


> Ithink you hear some difference to or you wouldn't have tried so hard to get 10" mid-basses in the civic.



I do hear a difference but the decision to do so has more to do with staging and harmonics than it does dynamics. In fact, there are some things I gave up with no longer having 15" subs behind me.


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## Lou Frasier2

cvjoint said:


> Home audio has low noise floor, proper azimuth angle, low resonance, enough space for dipole, and the ability to place subs near floorstanders.
> 
> I don't see how car audio can ever get close to a proper home audio system. Home audio is literally limitless. Even a full size van is a crappy tin can room where you are sitting in the corner.
> 
> The beauty of car audio is that you can play loud and stomp on a V8 to make it roar at the same time.
> 
> I played Need For Speed II soundtrack songs at full tilt at Infineon raceway. I literally drove like a maniac, did full drifts through the carousel and even passed both Mclarens in advanced group. It turns out NFS tracks unleash the dragon. I recommend this experience to everyone.


much funner to do it on a bike,


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## cvjoint

Lou Frasier2 said:


> much funner to do it on a bike,


Would you rather be 
1. below the edge
2. on the edge and over it in a cage + be able to drift 

Knowing myself I would kill myself on a bike because I must be on the edge. It's not a good choice for me. I ride bicycles and drive cars because I can survive it.


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