# Components VS Coaxial?



## ZX1Cruizer (Jun 1, 2010)

Is there really all that big a difference? Currently I am installing Alpine SPR-17C speakers, but I was curious to know if components would be better. My logic is telling me it will not have a dramatic difference in my setup. 

My install will have eight 6 1/2 coaxial. Basically 2 speakers per row, I have 3 rows of seats. Then 2 in the center front for center channel and one at the bottom for hands free phone. Basically I am setting the car up for 7.1 surround sound. Will have components make any difference?


----------



## JustinG (Mar 3, 2010)

ZX1Cruizer said:


> Is there really all that big a difference? Currently I am installing Alpine SPR-17C speakers, but I was curious to know if components would be better. My logic is telling me it will not have a dramatic difference in my setup.
> 
> My install will have eight 6 1/2 coaxial. Basically 2 speakers per row, I have 3 rows of seats. Then 2 in the center front for center channel and one at the bottom for hands free phone. Basically I am setting the car up for 7.1 surround sound. Will have components make any difference?


There are good coaxials and bad coaxials... just like there are good component systems and bad component systems. The one big advantage that component systems have is the ability to have the tweeter mounted on axis to the listener if the mounting location of the woofer doesn't allow this for a coax system.

Your question is kind of like asking if 8 inch woofers are better than 6 inch woofers, the answer is "it depends". 

But generally the low end of component speakers is higher end than the low end coaxials, but if you compared a $150 component set and $150 coaxial set from similar companies they would probably be very competitive, except that the coaxial doesn't have the flexible mounting options for the tweeter. But once you get into spending hundreds of dollars on a pair, companies don't bother making a coaxial version, so that is why you see most of the high end speakers being component.

It is kind of funny a lot of the guys in home audio strive for as close to possible center to center mounting for tweeters (can't get much closer than coaxial) and car audio guys always scoff coaxials.


----------



## ZX1Cruizer (Jun 1, 2010)

LOL, thats why I asked. Since mine is geared more towards movie like sound, I figured have components really wont make a difference for me. I drive a 2003 Durango and i hear that using components in that car adds issues like time alignment. One thing I like about the Apline SPR-17 is that you can aim the tweeter towards the way you want it to go, which I think would help.


----------



## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

ZX1Cruizer said:


> Basically I am setting the car up for 7.1 surround sound. Will have components make any difference?


What do you have that does 7.1 surround processing?

I'm assuming you have a processor, as 7 speakers and a sub != 7.1 surround.


----------



## ZX1Cruizer (Jun 1, 2010)

dubbreak said:


> What do you have that does 7.1 surround processing?
> 
> I'm assuming you have a processor, as 7 speakers and a sub != 7.1 surround.


Exactly..... Its a Car PC unit with a 7.1 SoundBlaster X-Fi Titanium Sound Card.


----------



## OGJordan (Sep 26, 2006)

ZX1Cruizer said:


> Exactly..... Its a Car PC unit with a 7.1 SoundBlaster X-Fi Titanium Sound Card.


If you have that setup then I wouldn't worry about time alignment, you probably have the ability to take care of that.


----------



## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

cajunner said:


> A coax usually has a much simpler crossover design based on the obvious fact that the tweeter placement is not subject to change, and for a surround system would make a lot of sense as well.
> 
> If you find coaxes or braxials that have independent, external crossovers you can probably conclude that the manufacturer felt the extra component cost was worth it, and is used on better drivers, more often than not.
> 
> You can make your own coaxials but with DIY drivers it is just easier to place the tweeters on the side rather than in front of the midrange.


Great post.

What I was going to recommend is if you are comparing a coax to separates look at the crossovers and the component count on the crossover. Most coaxes simply have a cap on the tweeter, with a resistor to pad it down, the mid is often run full range. Something like that isn't going to get very linear response, especially with cheap drivers. The only time I've seen such a crossover topology applied successfully is in the Gemme Tanto. Which uses a shielded silver flute w17 (smoother full range response than the non shielded) with a vifa xt19 that only has a single cap on it. Of course the baffle of that speaker is slanted to help deal with phase issues to give it the best chance possible of sounding good.

IMHO most separates should have an inductor and two caps on the tweeter and at least one inductor and cap on the woofer (with resistors for padding the tweeter). In my experience that is the minimum amount of components to get the drivers to cross LR4 (24db/octave acoustic response).. which is the easiest way to cross them (LR2 often takes more components to get smooth response since notches are needed, and higher orders take more components and generally don't help power handling on the tweeter as one would assume.. so why spend the extra money on components).

Sometimes you can get away with just a cap and inductor on the tweeter, but caps are pretty cheap and you usually can shape the response better with a second cap. So 2nd-3rd order electrical on the tweeter and 2nd order electrical on the woofer to get 4th order acoustic.

Oh yeah, so back to my point.. unless the coax has some components in the crossover (which would probably mean an outboard xover), then components are going to have more linear response since they are going to be crossed better (less peaks and dips and less phase issues at the xover point).


----------



## ZX1Cruizer (Jun 1, 2010)

OH WOW, remember I am a newb, so all this you just said went past me. I know when I turn the speaker over, it has a big yellow capacitor. Now as far as an inductor, I have no clue what that is.


----------



## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

ZX1Cruizer said:


> OH WOW, remember I am a newb, so all this you just said went past me. I know when I turn the speaker over, it has a big yellow capacitor. Now as far as an inductor, I have no clue what that is.


It's probably just a cap on the tweeter. That's pretty much the norm. The "components" in the oem system of my new vehicle consist of a cheap mylar tweeter with a cap and a paper mid/woofer run full range (plus some behind the scenes eq magic on the fujitsu 10 made deck I'm sure). Better than a single paper cone with a wizzer.

An inductor is a coil of wire, but they are sometimes heat shrinked and look like kinda like a cap.

The following image has 4 caps and 2 coils/inductors. It looks like a resistor (or two) is hidden by the tweeter sitting in front of the xover.










The following focal xover has two caps, 2 inductors and two resistors (for padding the tweeter level). They call it a 12db/oct crossover, which I take as meaning 2nd order electrical (two components per driver, so the mid has an inductor and cap and the tweeter has a cap and inductor). The actual acoustic slope is most likely 24db/oct as the electrical slope combines with the acoustic response of the drivers (their natural rolloff) which generally creates a steeper overall slope.

Of course w/o seeing the schematic or underside of the board it could actually be that it is a 2nd order acoustic crossover (could be a notch for the woofer and some shaping on the tweeter). It's impossible to tell without seeing the board traces.











I'm surprised the electrolytic cap. While I'm sure it sounds fine I'd think they would put a poly in there for looks and to guard against people who believe high end caps are the end-all be-all of good audio.

Anyhow, for a given price I guess you could generalize that more components in the xover are better. It's a reasonably safe assumption (of course measurements would actually mean a lot more).


----------



## JustinG (Mar 3, 2010)

dubbreak said:


> It's probably just a cap on the tweeter. That's pretty much the norm. The "components" in the oem system of my new vehicle consist of a cheap mylar tweeter with a cap and a paper mid/woofer run full range (plus some behind the scenes eq magic on the fujitsu 10 made deck I'm sure). Better than a single paper cone with a wizzer.
> 
> An inductor is a coil of wire, but they are sometimes heat shrinked and look like kinda like a cap.
> 
> ...


I know that I had a pair of MB Quart Coaxials that had at least 4 or 5 components.

On another note being in Home Audio/Speaker building when we are looking at caps, electrolytic caps are usually looked down upon mostly because the variability in them, usually a Poly will be very close to spec (1%-5%) and stay on spec longer than an electro would... we've seen electrolytic vary more than 10%. Really the only time it really saves a ton of money (If you are only building a pair of speakers, not a production run of speakers) is when you get more than 50uF when polys get into the $20+/ea range and tehn people will use small poly's in parallel to make sure that part of the XO is actually at the capacitance it was designed for.


----------



## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

JustinG said:


> I know that I had a pair of MB Quart Coaxials that had at least 4 or 5 components.
> 
> On another note being in Home Audio/Speaker building when we are looking at caps, electrolytic caps are usually looked down upon mostly because the variability in them, usually a Poly will be very close to spec (1%-5%) and stay on spec longer than an electro would... we've seen electrolytic vary more than 10%. Really the only time it really saves a ton of money (If you are only building a pair of speakers, not a production run of speakers) is when you get more than 50uF when polys get into the $20+/ea range and tehn people will use small poly's in parallel to make sure that part of the XO is actually at the capacitance it was designed for.


Variability and variance over time (electrolytics eventually degrade.. ) are actual concerns with electrolytics. Anyone I've heard complain about electrolytics was convinced they _sound bad_. To date I haven't seen an ABX test that has shown there is anything to the "sound" thing. Though some people with "golden ears" are convinced they can hear differences such as a "graininess" in solen caps (of course nothing measured, FR or distortion supports those claims). Of course I should be careful what I say as some forums I visit, even speaking of caps is bound to start a flame war.

When building crossovers you can get around the low precision of electrolytics by measuring and matching them. You can also use them in locations in the crossover where high precision is not required. They are also a lot cheaper when you get into larger values (and of course when you are looking at large values precision isn't as important). Personally none of the drivers I use I can justify going nuts on crossover component costs, so instead I use polys where the price is similar and electrolytics where it will save me some $$$.

Anyhow, back on topic(ish): I'd be curious to test some coaxials and components in the same price range and see what is actually a better bang for the buck. With components and the external crossover and extra packaging they are spending more money on parts, and therefor have less money for the drivers, with the coaxials they have less space to properly cross the drivers over, but can spend more on the drivers so they may not need as much xover work.

I just took a look at the speakers ZX got. Looks like there is at least one coil by this pic (labeled 0.2mH) and a poly cap:


----------



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

I've heard people say having tweeters by the woofer make for good staging, so coaxel might be nice if it was posible to have an external passive cross over, but i've yet to see one, so the spliting of the signals is less acurate, it is very easy to get a nice clean stage with 2 way, where coax will be a very flat stage, and you'll really have no dynamics to it, it'll sound just about the same for any part of the music. 

FYI, stay away from those infinity's he's using as an example for cross overs, they're junk. 

I really like the JBL GTO608C ( JBL GTO608C - 6-1/2" Component Systems - Sonic Electronix )
for the price they're good speakers, and 2 ohm. can't hadnle alot of power but meh. 

if you wanna go big, the JBL c608 GTI mkII's are the sex, and the special aniversery set is just the ultimate uber sex. but for the money the 608' gti's rock your socks off  I like titanium cone tweeters, but their are many types, but the titanium cone type's seem to be the most durable. the set with the GTI's handle the beating i give them every day of the week with eas


----------



## dubbreak (May 9, 2008)

eviling said:


> I've heard people say having tweeters by the woofer make for good staging, so coaxel might be nice if it was posible to have an external passive cross over, but i've yet to see one, so the spliting of the signals is less acurate, it is very easy to get a nice clean stage with 2 way, where coax will be a very flat stage, and you'll really have no dynamics to it, it'll sound just about the same for any part of the music.


Having centered in the mid/woofer makes it behave like a point source (all the sound comes from one apparent location), which is great. Problem is the tweeter is slightly in front of the mid, so it would be preferable to have the tweeter delayed slightly. Also generally you can't optimally place a coax.

For optimal integration you want a tweeter pretty close to the mid (within one wavelength of the crossover frequency to avoid lobing issues). This isn't always possible in a car. Of course sonically you are making a lot of other compromises in a car.. so you work with what you have.



eviling said:


> FYI, stay away from those infinity's he's using as an example for cross overs, they're junk.


Just an example. I searched quickly for images of car audio crossovers and that's one I found that showed the xover. I actually don't know what model they are (or care).


----------



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

dubbreak said:


> Just an example. I searched quickly for images of car audio crossovers and that's one I found that showed the xover. I actually don't know what model they are (or care).


I realised that, I just recnicnized them as a set i have, and i'm very displeased with them ::mean::


----------



## ZX1Cruizer (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanx for all the advice guys. I am still trying to take it all in, I didn't realize that audio setups had so many variable to take into effect. I guess with my install I have focused so much on the PC aspect that I haven't even bothered to educate myself on the audio side.

I think for what I want to do, these coaxials will be fine. From what I gather from all the info you guys have given me, these speakers would be considered medium quality speakers. Top quality would have the crossovers separate and low budget would mainly be just the speaker and a tweeter and nothing else. 

Everyone in the past I have talked to, talks about staging, or front staging. They say to have the second and third row speakers coaxials, then the front row components. I figured because I am doing a 7.1 setup and because my car is a big box (SUV) it doesn't need it. Is there any merit to what they are telling me?


----------



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

ZX1Cruizer said:


> Thanx for all the advice guys. I am still trying to take it all in, I didn't realize that audio setups had so many variable to take into effect. I guess with my install I have focused so much on the PC aspect that I haven't even bothered to educate myself on the audio side.


wait until you try and figuire out active staging 




for the front stage it's best to go with a 2 way set with a true cross over system, to get the best highs and mids up front, where as your rear is all fill. i've heard coax's that sound awsome but still nothing that really has the options and dynamics of a 2 or 3 way system.


----------



## cbrei1023 (Dec 2, 2008)

Since you seem pretty new to this all I would start out with what you have planned. Get the coaxials installed and play with tuning a bit. Learn some more. In the future maybe try some passive components in the front and then maybe even try to go active. The setup will get more and more complex as you progress obviolsley, but you will learn so much.


----------



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

cbrei1023 said:


> Since you seem pretty new to this all I would start out with what you have planned. Get the coaxials installed and play with tuning a bit. Learn some more. In the future maybe try some passive components in the front and then maybe even try to go active. The setup will get more and more complex as you progress obviolsley, but you will learn so much.


yeah my first system was all coax, i just droped in 2 way comps (i went with 2 way comps in the rear deck as well) and i love i, and shortly after going with comps i learned about active. its the natural order of things  but you dont need active for a joe shcmoe car system even if it is high end, the active just gives the guys doing the SQ comps the control to tweak there systems to the extremes.


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

So in theory a coax is ideal but the reality is most coaxes arent built as well as their componet brothers. For instance I have an incredible older set of JBL 504 GTIs. Basically a very good componet set where they mounted the tweeter on a bridge to make it coax. If for comparison sake I had the same speakers, one mounted coax and the other set mounted in a componet set up. The coax should sound better as it is a pointsouce sound? I will also throw in, that with this set it has an outboard xover or you can go active which I will. In the same set up, the active coax should sound better than say an active mid in the door with an active tweeter place up higher?


----------



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

well i just stumbled onto these. 
JL Audio C5-650x (c5650x) - 6-1/2" Speakers - Sonic Electronix

they look like a promising set of coaxials, i'd say those would sound pretty darn good, and you could even go active with them as the tweeters have there own inputs on the woofer.


----------



## ZX1Cruizer (Jun 1, 2010)

I think I will start from the bottom and do Coaxials first. I really thank you guys for helping me out and explaining the differences!


----------



## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

if i were starting with coaxial, i'd get those JL's if i had known abnout them I'd of been all over them like a fat kid at a bakery, and those cross overs will fit anywhere, they're pricy, but those are some ace speakers if you don't have room for a set of tweeters, and like they said, since they're isolated electriclay from each other they'll have a better sound.


----------

