# When does something become "old school"



## flecom (Mar 31, 2008)

I am just wondering is there an accepted line of demarcation as to when something becomes "old school"

see poll


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

When someone is willing to pay more for it.


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## flecom (Mar 31, 2008)

well I see "old school" stuff go on ebay for a lot less than it was new so is that always the case?


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

I dont mean more than original MSRP.BUT in some cases I have seen people list things NIB for more then the original price.
If you see an item on Ebay for one price,odds are if you search under"OLD SCHOOL" you will find the same item listed for a higher price.


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## flecom (Mar 31, 2008)

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> If you see an item on Ebay for one price,odds are if you search under"OLD SCHOOL" you will find the same item listed for a higher price.


haha, that I have seen more than once!


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## Magnified (Dec 22, 2012)

I personally think it has to be at least 15 years old. For car stuff in general, not just audio 1995 is a line I draw. Pre-OBD II and there seamed to have been a big leap in technology around that time.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

To me amps from the late 70s to mid 80s are called "Vintage". Amps from the mid 80s to the end of the 90s are "Old school", and all the crazy looking chrome dipped amps that came during the early 2000s I like to call "Generation X"


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

When it no longer has a practical purpose.


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

I think Old School can be considered an "Era" too. When you can look back at part of your life when you enjoyed something. Many of us either witnessed or were involved in Car Audio during its peak of quality and no holds barred.(Mid 80's to Mid 90's) Back when it was an option to have FM, a Cassette Player or a CD player, most cars had whizzer cones for speakers. Some still only had 2. LOL! Sorry I digress!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SaturnSL1 said:


> To me amps from the late 70s to mid 80s are called "Vintage". Amps from the mid 80s to the end of the 90s are "Old school", and all the crazy looking chrome dipped amps that came during the early 2000s I like to call "Generation X"


I totally agree with this! It's sad to see some exploiting the use of such a term as "old school" just to sell gear that is probably a few years old.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

It's a bit vague for me. I consider things 10-15 yrs old, old school, and things 20-25 yrs old, vintage.


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr. Green that is an interesting take I would tend to agree. I would say earlier than 2000 old school. Earlier than mid eighties vintage. 

Not much changed from mid eighties to late nineties. But then class D jumped into the game strong and more companies got sold and manufacturing moved overseas so many changes started happening. 
The eighties and nineties the us owned the car audio worldwide market back then. All but head units. 

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## STROKD (Jan 24, 2013)

to me, I think of it when it is replaced or obsolete. I think the TI PG amps are only 10 years old, but their architecture and design and sound are now collectable and considered old skool... many other amps similar, but these are the ones I am currently collecting.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Old school designation has nothing to do with age but rather technology.
Great craftsmanship required, not all Old crap can be called old school. 
I hate "old school" used in every god damn ebay action promoting mediocre equipment.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Anything 5+ years old IMO...


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## Ampman (Sep 7, 2011)

STROKD said:


> to me, I think of it when it is replaced or obsolete. I think the TI PG amps are only 10 years old, but their architecture and design and sound are now collectable and considered old skool... many other amps similar, but these are the ones I am currently collecting.


Yep I agree ?


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## flecom (Mar 31, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Old school designation has nothing to do with age but rather technology.
> Great craftsmanship required, not all Old crap can be called old school.
> I hate "old school" used in every god damn ebay action promoting mediocre equipment.


hrmm, I kind of like this explanation, so if someone made a CD HU right now that didn't play MP3's etc but was very well designed would it be "old school" since a CD only HU is considered obsolete I believe?


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## Randyman... (Oct 7, 2012)

Old Skewl said:


> I think Old School can be considered an "Era" too. *When you can look back at part of your life when you enjoyed something. Many of us either witnessed or were involved in Car Audio during its peak of quality and no holds barred.*(Mid 80's to Mid 90's) Back when it was an option to have FM, a Cassette Player or a CD player, most cars had whizzer cones for speakers. Some still only had 2. LOL! Sorry I digress!



Spot on, sir! It's very-much a personal "point of reference" quality IMNSHO. The human element has just as much to do with the definition of "Old School" as the technical benchmarks themselves (with regard to their chronology)...

I'm all early 90's (and maybe a tad late 80's) as that's when I was exposed to crazy car audio systems in my early teens. Such strong impressions are intrinsically tied to your audible library at that age IMO...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

flecom said:


> hrmm, I kind of like this explanation, so if someone made a CD HU right now that didn't play MP3's etc but was very well designed would it be "old school" since a CD only HU is considered obsolete I believe?


 you got it... I'd take McINTOSH MX5000 over anything made today. 
Old school as it gets.


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## flecom (Mar 31, 2008)

ya I have mixed feelings on those, if its says McIntosh it better say "Made in Binghamton, NY, USA" on it


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I think old school only refers to 1980's and 90's equipment that was made in either usa or japan. Just like you will never call a car made in the 80's an old school. must be 50's-early 70's. There came a point when quality diminished and equipment and cars became disposable.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> Old school designation has nothing to do with age but rather technology.
> Great craftsmanship required, not all Old crap can be called old school.
> I hate "old school" used in every god damn ebay action promoting mediocre equipment.




Kind of on the fence with this. Yes & no.... It DOES have to do with age, but technology to a degree. Even to this day you can find currently made products that are limited to cassette, 1 preout, no usb, etc... I can't & won't really call that old school, rather it's just limited. I graduated in 1989 so I was there the whole way from 8 track up to now.....

Of course there were always products from every era that wasn't up to par, but that does not discredit it from the era it was made in, the time that had an influence on it's design. Like for instance, a lot of the crap amps most here would name, does anyone remember when those amps were 8 ohm bridgeable only? Those same brands still flourish to this day, but of course they have transcended beyond that 8 ohm limitation. May even have the same lines within that brand still going... Cheap brands, but I still consider some of the products old school. And if I revealed what brands and how they are still sought after some of you guys would crap yourself... but I digress.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

Richv72 said:


> I think old school only refers to 1980's and 90's equipment that was made in either usa or japan. Just like you will never call a car made in the 80's an old school. must be 50's-early 70's. There came a point when quality diminished and equipment and cars became disposable.


X2 before the big sell out! And this list is long!

USA/Japan/European made stuff! (Not that the new stuff is totally bad, its just marketed differently) back in the day competition were based on power ratings (ie: 50watts or less....) guys would set up full systems with 1 amp (ie: Orion 225HCCA) and load those amps down to 1/2ohm stereo 1ohm mono!

Back in the day old school companies....not limited to;
Rockfors Fosgate
Orion
JL Audio (everyone had there subs for competition)
Soundstream
Pheonix Gold
Stillwater Design (Kicker)
MB Quartz
Zapco
Audison
ADS
MTX
Hiphonic (power from the gods...sorry i know i didn't spell it right!)

Now due to consumer demands for 1 billion watts these manufacturer cannot operate and make a profit so they have been pushed to sell to overseas build houses...high cost of manufacturing locally has bankrupted most of these companies! 

Any how, I have more to say but I just hate typing on this phone!


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

The definition should be age based, period. 

A classic car, I believe, by the BMV is any vehicle over 25 yrs old. At least I think it has to be over 25 yrs old to get a "classic " plate for it. 

Now, it might be older then 25 now and this is also in the state of Indiana.

Look up the definitions of old school and vintage, both are "age" based, not technology based.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

....dont get me wrong I am not necessarely saying that old school is best! Not the case, it was just different then...with the advancement in technology of today and the pressure of competing againts each other has driven the prices down...way down and consumers (me) win!


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

5 years old is definately NOT old school. 
For me, anything made from say 2001 on up till the present is considered "modern". 
'85-2000 is what I think of as "old school".
Some will say (and I can see the point) that we made a transition when high current "cheater amp" went out of mass production. I guess that was around 2001 with the Gen. 5 Orion HCCA's?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Old school was better in that was before a lot of companies either went under or sold out in quality. That is all IMO. With the advancements in technology & knowledge plus the availability, there is really no need to dwell on such products as "cheater amps" since higher power amps of today are relatively inexpensive compared to then. Only those who are into nostalgia would place a high value in such. Other than a certain cosmetic flair or feature not offered today, I see no need to use amps with a limited input voltage, hard-wired power cables & plugs, lack of protection circuitry, large footprint etc.... my US Acoustics amps are the oldest I have and would use. There's just too much else currently offered to go further back.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

I absolutely agree with smgreen. It has absolutely nothing to do with quality and everything to do with age. Just because an amp from the early 90s is junk doesn't mean it isn't old school.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> hard-wired power cables & plugs


Nothing screams old school like amps with wires coming out of them


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Dangit!!! I can't grab the link on my phone, but I was going to post up a old school Pyramid Gold Series amp & crossover auction that's currently on ebay. Can you believe such gear still exists???


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Every once in a while you will see car audio gear from the mid 80's up for sale. Stuff like Proton and various other names that escape me at the moment. Gear that was pretty good for it's time.... Odd to see some still hanging around, but of course, the value is nothing more than for memories. Surely they can not compete even in today's market of buildhouse components. Just memories is all...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

cajunner said:


> I'd like to see the guts of that Magnadyne, I can't remember what they look like and I know I have seen them in the nude... back then I didn't know anything.
> 
> I'm thinking it was IC-based even if it claimed 50W/ch RMS, but it would be nice to know, one of those loose ends that I believe some of us suffer from, and why we go back and buy the stuff we used to have, we want to fill in the gaps of nostalgia with something else.
> 
> Or, I do. I believe I'm missing a few screws, still work but have minor issues, the shine is starting to dull and the paint is fading up top...


Nahhh.... no screws loose man. I believe all old schoolers have that flair for the glory days. You just have to exert control in not grabbing up old gear that you know you will never use or will lose money over.


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## timzewski (Jan 26, 2012)

SilkySlim said:


> Mr. Green that is an interesting take I would tend to agree. I would say earlier than 2000 old school. Earlier than mid eighties vintage.
> 
> Not much changed from mid eighties to late nineties. But then class D jumped into the game strong and more companies got sold and manufacturing moved overseas so many changes started happening.
> The eighties and nineties the us owned the car audio worldwide market back then. All but head units.





SaturnSL1 said:


> To me amps from the late 70s to mid 80s are called "Vintage". Amps from the mid 80s to the end of the 90s are "Old school", and all the crazy looking chrome dipped amps that came during the early 2000s I like to call "Generation X"


This is how I feel as well. It was like there was a before and after these "eras" or time periods. I still wonder if amplifier technology has taken much of a jump from old school to now, as it did from 70s-80s to old school. Of course we have better technology, but is it necessarily used to make a better product than say older Rockford, Orion, Phoenix, Zapco or Sony ES?? Is there much difference between 2002 tech and 2012 to constitute an era, or have we stagnated or even taken a step backwards all for the sake of profit margins and a different product demand?


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I think the new stuff is 90% garbage, even alot of the good brands are built in korea now, stuffed with the cheapest components they could find, all in the name of saving a few pennies. The good old school amps were built by people that actually cared, the parts were the best available, they were put together by people with knowledge on how these amps worked. Now its all made in build houses by cheap labor who could care less about build quality as long as they dont get returned for being defective. You can keep your chinese and korean garbage, I wont spend my money on it. I wont support companies that close down their build house here only to outsource the manufacturing to korea or china.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

personally being 51 years old..and involved in car audio since the late 80's i have a soft spot for "old school"...

but when i see stupid prices like this i cringe:

Soundstream Original Old School D 100 Amp | eBay


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

flecom said:


> ya I have mixed feelings on those, if its says McIntosh it better say "Made in Binghamton, NY, USA" on it


This one made in Japan and I don't have a mixed feeling on those, best sounding HU, period. build like a tank and will last forever.


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

This is very interesting discussion. I feel like the best amps of old school and now have a lot in common. The designs or designers. Genisis is very close to a soundstream ref. old school. Zed very efficient but he designed numerous old school. Jeff behind arc audio had his hands in many very good old school designs. 

Even the best engineers and designers have to eat and do design s they aren't proud of. There are many new school companies out there where their 1&2 priorities are price and size. Anyway you no my def. of old school. The companies charging the most for there products are typically the ones taking advantage of the better tech. Support them let and them make money so that they can thrive and make quality products with quality sound again. 
I think that it is funny every time I here someone rant about sound quality and how cheap everything is. Then is the first to complain about how much the quality stuff is and why have all of the "good" companies sold out. Usually its the same guy that thinks he is worth a lot more than what he gets paid too. Why do so many people think that the audio Gods owe them good sound. Sorry to get on the soap box. 

I will stick with a combo of design/manufacturing eras and age for my thoughts on old school and vintage for that matter.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using iTapatalk 2


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## dratunes (Nov 29, 2008)

Id say anything 15 years and older is considered oldskool to me in my opinion.I got into the game in 1990'ish. Im gettin old!!!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)




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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Modern stuff made in Korea or China (JL Audio for example) is not even comparable to the old hand-built stuff. Meaning the tolerances and precision used today is actually MUCH better. Now, having said that, any product will only be as good as the parts put into its construction. With the proliferation of car audio, you are bound to run into junk products. The demand for mega-wattage at dirt cheap prices (the so-called race to zero) has led to alot of former industry standard bearers being run into the ground. 

What I mean't about the time we moved from cheater amps as a transition point was simply that the industry changed alot when competition rules pushed high current amps out. Most companies abandoned cheater amps around 2000. I wasn't singling high current amps out as "better" but, simply pointing out that when their demand went away, the industry changed. 
The next big change in the industry came a few years ago with the rise of Class D amplifiers. Not that Class D in and of themselves are "better" but, they simply mark a transition point in the history of car audio.


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## flecom (Mar 31, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> This one made in Japan and I don't have a mixed feeling on those, best sounding HU, period. build like a tank and will last forever.


well, some day I will get one... some day... but I have a hard time with the idea of putting down that kind of $$$ for a HU


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

I think the vintage maybe before car stereo iasca comp. got big. Then you have the big iasca era then, new spl focused equipment? So Old School anything big cheater amp period and before?
Tolerances have gotten better and companies that stay on top of design and q.c. do well. I do have to say that marketing has gotten out of hand. Just as they underrated amps and used high current cheater amps to do better in competition it seems just as bad in the other direction with the overrating of most now. 

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## Leksikon (Nov 25, 2010)

For me old school is an era based on technology and style more than pure age, although they happen to align in this case. I'd say the glory days were up to and including the late 90s, maybe as far as about 2001. After that it seemed like even local competitions turned into a rejected pilot episode of jersey shore 2 and it just stopped being fun. People could enjoy just getting together and figuring stuff out and comparing notes, I'm not saying it was always civil, but it was pleasant. I think for me it stopped being fun in '01 so I'll mark that my cutoff date for old school. Vintage I'd say was pre-'83-'85 or so, I can't remember all my history but I know a/d/s was doing big things after around '83 that kind of kicked off that era.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

flecom said:


> hrmm, I kind of like this explanation, so *if someone made a CD HU right now *that didn't play MP3's etc but was very well designed would it be "old school" since a CD only HU is considered obsolete I believe?


 I wouldn't call it old school, *I'd call it a mistake*


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

Dito the Pioneer 99 case in point how hard would it be to include some convenience like Bluetooth in such an advanced piece. I really don't think it would degrade SQ and if so allow people to turn it off. 

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SilkySlim said:


> Dito the Pioneer 99 case in point how hard would it be to include some convenience like Bluetooth in such an advanced piece. I really don't think it would degrade SQ and if so allow people to turn it off.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


I'm quite sure Pioneer did their homework on what features would be most important to those who the P99 targets. Although it may be a turnoff for some, it's probably not a big issue or even part of the allure for the rest. 

Keep in mind it is marketed as an "audiophile" deck (whatever that is supposed to mean) so some parts of that echelon belief is simplicity.... IE lack of unnecessary bells & whistles in aspects that have nothing to do with sound quality.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

flecom said:


> hrmm, I kind of like this explanation, so if someone made a CD HU right now that didn't play MP3's etc but was very well designed would it be "old school" since a CD only HU is considered obsolete I believe?


Pioneer Japan (Carozzeria) and Clarion still make high-end HU that doesn't play MP3 FYI  
The HX-D3 was released last year (2012)

Kelvin


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## Robb (Dec 5, 2008)

20+ years.
I still believe this new stuff will never be collectible or "old school" status.
Just like the high horsepower cars of today will never be called "muscle cars"


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## oldschool4me (Feb 9, 2013)

SaturnSL1 said:


> To me amps from the late 70s to mid 80s are called "Vintage". Amps from the mid 80s to the end of the 90s are "Old school", and all the crazy looking chrome dipped amps that came during the early 2000s I like to call "Generation X"


Yes i agree. many consider it the age of the item itself but its an era. When you think of old school 80s and 90s come to mind for me...even with hip hop/rap music. Something made today would never become old school to me. Ones age may be a factor in what he or she thinks of as old school also but to most of us in the car audio and music world describe it as an era.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

Pre internet is old school.


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## kkritsilas (Nov 19, 2012)

For me, "old school" is more of a sound quality reference than anything else. When stuff was designed to deliver the best possible sound quality at any given price point, and do it reliably. Not, how cheap can I make something that I can charge X amount of dollars for, but how much can I charge for a unit that will for example, deliver 50W X 2 at .02% distortion at 4 Ohms. Not the current, hugely overinflated power ratings, usually given without either a distortion number or a power supply voltage level. This usually means regular Class A or Class AB amplifiers, and casings solid enough to allow proper heat dissipation. Not the current 1% and 10% distortion power ratings, nor flimsy, thin metal cases that are designed to minimize weight and size so that manufacturing and shipping from China will be cheaper. This means things like the made in the US PPI, Zapco, Orion, Soundstream, and Hifonics, amongst other brands. The current stuff, by and large, are nowhere near as good, even from the same brands (brands have been bought and sold so many times that the original guiding principles are a forgotten artifact of the past).

Kostas


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## Ampman (Sep 7, 2011)

Lots of opinions and great ones at that. I think its the products that word of mouth alone said it all, wasnt any need for big lab tests to let you know what you had cause you were able to hear it.. I guess a time frame of sorts when the best was really that.. the best


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