# SPYDER SAG?? really?



## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

My JBL W10Gti I sold is being accused of having spyder sag and the buyer says its ruined. I never really looked at it before I sent it out. I have a pic of it. it looks not new but far from ruined. 

he sent me some pics but I am not certain its my sub and not other other sub . He told me spyders get ruined when sitting up in storage for a long time with boxes on them.

this sub as far as I know has been in use for more than the last year. at least I dont know if it being in a box with weight on top of it.

not sure how this is going to play out. trying not to get back a imposter W10GTi


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## athm3x (Jan 24, 2010)

Does it have any identifying marks on it? A scratch on the basket that you would recognize? This is a tough one. Maybe offer to pay half the recone cost?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I spent a hour and half looking at his vs mine pics and I see things on his not on mine. but not 100 % sure . 

I used it and it was used before I got it. so its hard to know. I guess I had never thought of this issue before now. 

He had asked about voice coil smell and mentioned the spyder. I told him I didnt smell anything but I forgot to even mention spyder as I wasnt sure what he was talking about. I figured we would talk more. next thing I know I got money in my account for the sub.

the guy has more than 1 . he has some of the CHina made MKii versions also. 

I know he has maybe 2 others as he told me so before I sent it out. so I am not sure this is my sub or one of the "others"


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

where does one get a recone? never had to mess with before.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

here is a pic of it from him. I guess its my sub. pics are still hard to tell.

I guess it will come back and I will use it.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)




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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

That's a tough one. On the one hand you should always store/use subs in the vertical plane to prevent cone sag. On the other he is buying a used sub and cone sag is not the end of the world. I would think it can be marked off as wear and tear for a used product but I see the other side as well.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Cone sag?? That guy is a tool. It might be sagging a millimeter if at all. Suspension loosens up after 4 years. Deal with it. Here is what cone sag looks like:

Good sub:




























Sub with cone sag:




























Notice in the first pic of the bad sub, how the last 3/4" of the cone is blocked by the spider? Notice in the other two pics how the surround is completely pulled down and the cone looks sunken in? THAT'S cone sag. Tell that guy to stop being a little ***** and run the sub. Jesus Christ.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I agree with Mikey. Tell him to go **** in his hat.

Selling on DIYMA has become ridiculous, between the dishonesty and cheapskates.


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## computerjlt (Nov 29, 2010)

yea thats bs; only time i've seen sag that really hurt anything was when someone stored something heavy on top of a woofer and the spyder lost all of its springyness, in fact the VC was resting on the back plate

on a side note had any luck finding a new terminal block?

i'm probably gunna install that ti500 this week and redo all my wiring.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Let's say it has a little cone sag. What is the symptom? How can he tell? Why does that make it unusable?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

He has a newer miki to compare. I will post a link. What's the chances of winning this in paypal?


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## computerjlt (Nov 29, 2010)

no one wins with paypal


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Is he a member here? I want to make sure I never sell him a single piece of gear. Ever.


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

That's a tough one Mike. Out of curiosity, how does a sagging spider affect sound? 
If it does affect the sound in any way its shame, very nice sub


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

circa40 said:


> That's a tough one Mike. Out of curiosity, how does a sagging spider affect sound?
> If it does affect the sound in any way its shame, very nice sub


It depends how bad it's sagging. The issue becomes (in the case of the 1200GTi I pictured above) that "center" or resting position is no longer center, so the cone will have disproportionate travel (inward vs. outward). I hooked up the 1200GTi and could not hear an audible difference between it and one with no cone sag, and it was sagging like a motherfucker. I am sure with some serious power input, it would have started getting sideways and eventually lost composure. Ultimately, the spider becomes too weak to support the cone at all and keep things linear, and you end up with a blown speaker. From the looks of the pic of the W10GTi, it is light years away from being that bad. Maybe the pics don't do it justice, but that spider looks almost ruler flat to me. The 1200GTi pictured above sat for 8 years, horizontally, in a box with **** on top of it (I bought them like that).


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

circa40 said:


> That's a tough one Mike. Out of curiosity, how does a sagging spider affect sound?
> If it does affect the sound in any way its shame, very nice sub



heck I dont know. I dont think the guy hooked it up. He is just making a huge deal out of what may or may not be an issue at all . sub worked when I shipped it.

That is why I wonder what paypal would do. I wonder if this is considered normal wear and tear. I dont know.

he said at one point sub is ruined. which is a bit of an exageration. 

I would prefer not to take it back

I can see where the example above would be a cause for alarm but not this sub. 


here is the pm I got with the pics he sent me. he is comparing the W10gti to the W10gti MKii

oops! link removed. I will post a side by side of his and mine


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

JAX said:


> here is the pm I got with the pics he sent me. he is comparing the W10gti to the W10gti MKii
> 
> Car Audio Classifieds


You can't link us to your personal inbox, JAXXIE.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> Is he a member here? I want to make sure I never sell him a single piece of gear. Ever.


Also curious.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Caraudioclassifieds.org is where I am dealing with him. Don't know if he comes here.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

JAX said:


> He has a newer miki to compare. I will post a link. What's the chances of winning this in paypal?


newer as perhaps not broken in?

im a noob but i dont see anything off enough to be a problem.

i also feel like he would just have to deal... i mean im scared when i buy stuff off here, u never know what to expect and im all about making things right. but i just dont see anything wrong at all, let alone something thats going to be that drastic to affect performance audibly


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

His username is 6btdakota. He only has one post here. Looks like he spends most of his time on CACO. Here's his profile:

DIYMA.com - View Profile: 6btdakota


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

his post is yesh

i think he screwing u, he cant even spell


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ok, lets examine what the spider is for... to keep the cone from shifting left to right during linear travel. it does add some dampening, but most of that comes from the electrical impulses driving the vc, as well as the surround. the spider doesn't, at least in the case of the w10gti, have a purpose other than keeping things linear.... 

the pictures you posted are nearly identical, so it's a hard call, but even with the few mm of sag depicted, this guy is full of **** saying the sub is ruined... 

he bought a sub, decided he didn't want it, and then told you it's busted. it's not. remember the the gti employs the dula vc braking thingamajig that keeps it from over extending and within operating range. that's why you can feed so much power to it and never reach xdamage. 

this guy is a tool, plain and simple. don't even give it a second thought. have this guy meter the coils and send you a video of it... document it with paypal. there won't be anything wrong with it, unless he hooked it up wrong. 

how long did he have it before he brought this to your attention?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

That's him. I am debating wether I want to take it back just based on principle and the fact that I don't want it to get destroyed in shipping back and forth. If I do take it back I will sell it again cheap and be done with it. I got 2 other subs so I can use the money elsewhere. I haunt heard from him since early yesterday. I told him I was thinking of not taking it back.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

JAX said:


> That's him. I am debating wether I want to take it back just based on principle and the fact that I don't want it to get destroyed in shipping back and forth. If I do take it back I will sell it again cheap and be done with it. I got 2 other subs so I can use the money elsewhere. I haunt heard from him since early yesterday. I told him I was thinking of not taking it back.


Tell him to meter it like Matt said. From what I understand, the worse the sag, the further off from nominal impedance the coils will read. I think that 1200GTi I had was reading in the low to mid 3s when it should have read 3.9-4.1. If his coils read between 5.9-6.2 per coil, he's an official douchebag and I hope he gets the worst kind of ass cancer.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> If his coils read between 5.9-6.2 per coil, he's an official douchebag and I hope he gets the worst kind of ass cancer.


i'm with you on that one Mike... for sure. werd.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

ha ha ok. I will do that. and see what he says.


oh and he got the sub Friday around 5pm and pm'd me sometime later that night. not sure when as my time is wrong on that forum.

oh and thanks for that tip on the meter. that helps a lot and makes my case better. if he tests it . if he just sends it then I will handle it in paypal court I guess.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Hey Mike! This sucks man! Just out of curiosity how did he send the payment? Paypal gift, goods, etc..... Paypal blows and will always defend the buyer specifically via Assbay! As far as goods or gift goes... He might not have a leg to stand on as far as there concerned. Its seems like complete buyers remorse and I would tell him to go screw on principle alone. If you loose via paypal then so be it. I wouldnt offer a refund. This guy has ZERO clue what he is talking about and his pictures dont show anything! Problem is that paypal doesnt know what they are looking at either 
Guys' a Dick and I hope that he has the balls to come over here so we can all say HI!


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## onebadmonte (Sep 4, 2008)

Unfortunately no re-cones available for those subs. I've asked. I'd stay away from taking it back. He might be trying to pass on a broken sub. Good luck bro.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

JAX said:


> trying not to get back a imposter W10GTi


Pictures you have on CACO have the serial visible correct? 

Have him video the coils like he mentioned and also the serial number on the sub.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Salami said:


> Pictures you have on CACO have the serial visible correct?
> 
> Have him video the coils like he mentioned and also the serial number on the sub.



serial is on there and I have a pic of what it is unfortunately its just a sticker. it can be removed. 

I think its my sub ha ha I have spent a couple hrs looking at all the pics..my thing now is wether I am going to take it back. 

its not the sub, its the principle that I am wal-mart or something to this guy. 

if the sub didnt work that would be different. but it did and should still.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

It really seems like nothing more then buyers remorse! F' em! 
Its not like you dont have a more then upstanding rep on either forum


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I havnt heard from him in 2 days so I dont know what he has going on.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

did he pay with a gift or goods or services via paypal?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

rexroadj said:


> did he pay with a gift or goods or services via paypal?


Pretty sure he did normal goods/services


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Might be pretty hard for paypal to get involved/make a ruling? If it were ebay you'd be SCREWED!


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

> What's the chances of winning this in paypal?


Zero



> If it were ebay you'd be SCREWED!


True on both of these.... The A$$hole in Bossier City got me on a pair of Wgti's and neither E-screw-everyone-bay or Pay-f-off-pal stood up for me. 

His dumb-a$$ girlfriend (supposedly) packed them perfectly. If by that you mean "throw them in a cheap uhaul box with a bunch of peanuts", I guess she did. Both were tossed around so much that the pole piece broke off and slammed against the magnet inside. 

Recone? I think not!
Wish I had a bat to massage their car or something.



Bastiches!!!!





Good luck


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Guy has filed a claim with paypal so they are holding my money hostage. 

He also started a thread on caraudioclassifieds.org in order to bad mouth me and talk how I ripped him off. notice he had no pics or anything . just made statements on how bad the sub is and all this ********. I am wondering now if he hasnt sat on the sub to **** it up for real. I need to get a current pic of it.

Poll: Is spider sagging important? - Car Audio Classifieds


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## Askspot (May 22, 2009)

JAX said:


> Guy has filed a claim with paypal so they are holding my money hostage.
> 
> He also started a thread on caraudioclassifieds.org in order to bad mouth me and talk how I ripped him off. notice he had no pics or anything . just made statements on how bad the sub is and all this ********. I am wondering now if he hasnt sat on the sub to **** it up for real. I need to get a current pic of it.
> 
> Poll: Is spider sagging important? - Car Audio Classifieds


If you have proof you sent him pictures of the item, and he acknowledged the item was in fair condition for him and he pai for it, you are safe. If he claims shipping damage from you he would have to go thru UPS or whoever you sent it through. If they didn't mark it as damaged he i screwed. I think you are pretty safe here. I always make videos with a time/date stamp.

I would call Paypal and plead your expertise to the "claims specialist" to show them you are concerned about it, and are willing to be resonable. Make sure they understand the speaker was used and sold as used, and like anything mechanical they wear and loosen up like anything. Example (Sold a used car and the suspension isn't MINT) If you can show pictures of the "problem" (hopefully you sent them thru paypal so they can see them) you're safe. I think you'll be surprised that paypal might side with you. I had a USED Vintage jensen speaker that was damaged during shipping and it was bolted to a plywood board ect. They guy wanted a $150 refund to have it re-coned. Ebay said it was on the shipping company.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I am just going to take it back. he has now instead of trying to talk about the minimum cone sag is talking about coil failure or being stuck.

paypal is already holding out money for his refund. 

I just want the sub back and be done with the guy. 


this just isnt looking near as bad as he is trying to portray

he also is making statements about the coil but he has no proof of that and hasnt powered the sub up. 

he just doesnt want it. 

I dont feel like all the drama. they already pissed me off over there.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

cone position here is not that much different but like I said...the guy will say anything to get out of it. he wont test the sub or the coils. 

he didnt respond to me at all in almost 3 days..just filed a claim. 

if I fight the claim I got to wait for all this crap to get settled. Dont have the patience to argue with someone who is not being straight and will not be if we have to argue about it.

I will just take it back.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Mike....**** him! He was banned from the forum you sold it on???? That says a lot!


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

have u talked to paypal at all? i know they support buyer most of the time and all, but the fact he wont power it, test it with dmm, nothing, clearly shows he just bought it and dont want it now


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

copy his messages (and how he is now banned) from CA..... Show them to paypal. He shoots himself in the foot several times


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

when did he get banned? I see it says banned under his name but not seeing what or where or when


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

**** that place. iamsonic is no better than the douche you sold the woofer to. What a bunch of children.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I am definitely not going back. I still look at the pics and don't see it that bad. I need to post all the pics on here so I can then save them in case it's bad when I get it. He won't take more pics. Said it's already boxed which worries me that he may have messed with it and will try to blame shipper or me. I need to call paypal also.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

JAX said:


> I am definitely not going back. I still look at the pics and don't see it that bad. I need to post all the pics on here so I can then save them in case it's bad when I get it. He won't take more pics. Said it's already boxed which worries me that he may have messed with it and will try to blame shipper or me. I need to call paypal also.


Make sure he insures it for the full purchase price, and have him send you proof of insurance on the receipt along with the tracking number. That way if it's ****ed when you get it back, at least you can have UPS foot the bill.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I told him last night to send me the shipping info. He didn't bother to reply. I am a quote "power seller" on there and has has a 1 trader rating but you see how it's going over there. Just as bad as caraudio.com.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

That CACO thread is a tragedy.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I wonder how long until I get banned?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

This is why I won't do business over there, this is a common problem over there. Sorry about that happened Jax, I wouldnt take it back, I would fight the Paypal claim out of principal and show pics to prove you're right.
Mikey, I give u a day at this rate. Good looking out for a friend but it's fleeting over there.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> That CACO thread is a tragedy.


How you mean exactly? I looked at the diagram of the GTi manual. I don't know how he is saying the coil is off center. Don't know how he is seeing it. Basically he didnt prove anything. Just made some claims and the rest of the people just added their 2 cents. No test no proof. Just decided it was bad cause he said so. Also put statements in there I didn't say at all and left out what he said. I néed to call pp now


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I am definitely not going back. I still look at the pics and don't see it that bad. I need to post all the pics on here so I can then save them in case it's bad when I get it. He won't take more pics. Said it's already boxed which worries me that he may have messed with it and will try to blame shipper or me. I need to call paypal also.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Thread's closed anyway.

What a cluster.

I was going to predict Mikey would be banned before lunch, but thread's closed.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Thread's closed anyway.
> 
> What a cluster.
> 
> I was going to predict Mikey would be banned before lunch, but thread's closed.


At least I got the last word in. That makes me feel good. 

I was careful how I worded things. I'm not new to the interwebz; I know what's ban-worthy and what's not. The mod was calling me names, as were other people, trying to get a rise out of me so they could ban me. They can all go **** themselves. Maybe I'll shoot that douche a PM.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Its a used sub; I'd tell him you bought it, its yours. These people only do this stuff because they can get away with it. All you have to do is stick it on a shelf upside down for a while and it will move. I have some subs that are 10+yr old I turn them over once in a while they are fine. Its called gravity. Aside from the fact that you can barely see any difference to another one anyway. Either it works or it don't, measure the coils. Good luck however it comes out.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I just read what I could before it got shut down. Way to go Mikey for countering there baseless **** with some logic. I owe you one just for sticking it out there when you didn't have to. It was almost funny to see them come back with no real reason. And keep mirespresenting the truth. It's coming back. Just the small matter of what happens if it's not same as it was before. I wouldn't put it past the guy to have damaged it in some way to make his claim. I had pics of this sub on 4 forums so we will see. Soon as I can I will snag all 20 pics he took before he was sure he wanted to send it back. Mikey your a good guy.


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

Dang I missed the fun before the thread closed! 

Depending on the sub, some are meant to be installed vertically versus horizontally for this exact reason. If the spider is a little loose who cares! Years ago Adire Audio had a great tech paper on this exact issue and how to mount subs.

JAX, your JBL looked fine to me. Of course I would have to see it in person for a balls on accurate analysis. 

IAMSONIC, is also a good seller (from personal experience) and normally stays clear of this kind of drama. 

I really like the CACO FS thread format and disciplined moderation of the forums. IMO an overall safe place to buy and sell. A lot of the FS threads here on DIY are complete junk. I think the line of questioning would have been better served in the "dispute" forum on CACO. 

I hope everything works out well in the end for you on this deal JAX. The buyer on CACO did not paint a very clear picture of how the deal really went down.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Buyer made multiple offers that I declined. He then made a one I was considering. The he pm'd me and I asked if I smelt burnt coils or had sagging spider. I didn't smell anything burnt but at that time I didn't know what a sagging spider was. I never had a 2nd chance to discuss it. He just sent money out of the blue. I didn't know who sent the money or for what. I totally forgot about the spider question. Having not ever dealt with that it slipped my mind. He got the sub and sends me pm later telling me it's not good enough and it's ruined. So naturally I am like "ruined". Are you serious ? his next email was that he didn't think it was that bad and he would wait to see if it settled. I offered a partial refund so that the sub wouldn't have to be shipped multiple times. He said no. I asked him to check the coils and he never replied. Next thing I have paypal up my butt and he is saying the sub has a stuck coil. Where it went from not bad to stuck is a mystery. I guess that would be why I need to call paypal


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I guess they closed and deleted the thread. I read it last night, no one on that forum has a clue. I sure as hell am not gonna sell anything to those retards over there.

Jax, I hate to say it but be ready to be bent over. I have a feeling your gonna be screwed any way it goes. I have not sold much with the influx of new members here lately due to something like this happening. I am gonna have to start putting SOLD AS IS in my threads now, which I hate as when I see it I think something shady must be going on.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

You're entirely welcome; someone needed to join your team with all those vultures preying over fresh meat. 

IAMSONIC has tons of feedback and I'm sure he's a nice guy, but he was wrong to jump into that thread the way he did, and the points I made to him stand. He was not moderating the thread; he was adding to the ****storm.

The funny thing is, the guy was banned for doing the exact same thing- he sent someone an amp, they claimed it was damaged, and he refused to issue a refund. He opened a new account and did the reciprocal to Mike. That he is given any credibility in the least is absolutely absurd. Compare that to Mike, who has an insane amount of positive feedback and multiple people running to his defense, and it's amazing the ignorance IAMSONIC and other members portrayed. Could they not see that the guy has multiple W10GTi? Is it beyond fathoming that he already HAD an MKI with a sagging spider that he didn't picture, bought Mikes with the intent of doing this very thing and ending up with a good sub for free? 

Prevent people from scamming- I'm all about that. ****, I got audioaddict/somegreekguys' new alias banned last night for Christ's sake. But scamming isn't always at the hands of the seller. That thread was way too one-sided and IAMSONIC or another Mod should have stepped in and done his job instead of being a tool.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm afraid our boy is going to be a victim of the switcheroo. I think it's eerily coincident that the buyer mentioned 'spider sag' in a PM just moments before paying and now the sub in question just happens to have 'spider sag'. I've not heard of GTi's having a common problem with 'spider sag' yet he was worried about it to the point of mentioning it beforehand? IDK, seems odd.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> I'm afraid our boy is going to be a victim of the switcheroo. I think it's eerily coincident that the buyer mentioned 'spider sag' in a PM just moments before paying and now the sub in question just happens to have 'spider sag'. I've not heard of GTi's having a common problem with 'spider sag' yet he was worried about it to the point of mentioning it beforehand? IDK, seems odd.


I've owned 12-13 W1XGTi woofers and never had a single one with sag. Loose suspension? Sure. Nothing wrong with that- just means they've been broken in. Sag? Not on your life. I've owned all 3 series as well (MKI, x000w dustcap, MKII), plus the older 1X00GTi that I pictured earlier. Those sat for 8 ****ing years in a horizontal orientation stacked on top of one another with newspaper for "insulation" to look the way they did.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Mikey your a noob, damm noob, I am a moderator and have over 10k posts, I know everything about audio and subwoofers, even things I have never seen or touched I have this power over everyone on the forum. I am cool.

What a douche


Out of that whole thread, I didnt read anywhere, where the guy hooked the sub up and tested it out


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Most suspicious thing of all was Jax was using it before he sold it and now it's locked up and unusable.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Mikey your a noob, damm noob, I am a moderator and have over 10k posts, I know everything about audio and subwoofers, even things I have never seen or touched I have this power over everyone on the forum. I am cool.
> 
> What a douche
> 
> ...


Seriously, what a child. He can't be older than 21. All the other morons calling me names were 18, 19, etc. Illiterate, sloped-shouldered cave dwellers with their quad 18" PSi recones and their 5 1/4" component sets.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> Most suspicious thing of all was Jax was using it before he sold it and now it's locked up and unusable.



dont say that..I dont want to think thats the case.

if I dont do it now and wait till it arrives can I then change this or do I need to escalate it now to an all out claim?

I am trying not to have to wait 30 days but then again I wont he will...so maybe I should escalate it to a claim and make him wait 

either way I am out the money. its the sub that I care about and that is my only problem. 

the guy is such a bad communicator I have no idea when its going to go out.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)




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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

edited. I temp stored his pics on here so I could then save them. now if he deletes his pics I still have them on file to compare with what shows up


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

JAX said:


> dont say that..I dont want to think thats the case.
> 
> if I dont do it now and wait till it arrives can I then change this or do I need to escalate it now to an all out claim?
> 
> ...


I thought he said in the CACO thread that it was locked up? Maybe I just dreamed that. If he didn't say that then ignore me.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> I thought he said in the CACO thread that it was locked up? Maybe I just dreamed that. If he didn't say that then ignore me.



he said a coil was stuck. Now I have repeatedly asked if he tested it or would test it or take pics of that. wont do it. 

so he could be lying and might just be trying to see what I do. 

Am I right in thinking I can escalate the claim and get the sub and he will have to wait on me? 

considering how worthless he has been trying to resolve it I think I should. I also want to make sure I get back what I sent exactly how I sent it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would tell that guy to go have self analcourse with a chainsaw.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I went ahead and escalated it to a full blown claim


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

That's what I think I would do in this situation as well. Make him wait for the money. If nothing else it would make me feel a little better knowing he was out the money for 30 days.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Holy crap. I might be wrong. 

you guys save these pics and then do a search on the pic properties. 

I just did 2 of them and they say taken 08 / 27 / 10 NOT 03/04/11 


I got to go back to work. someone check this for me PLEASE.

I might have his ass


here is a link to his photobucket

someone look at some of the more recent pics and see if the dates taken are wrong. I dont have time to save more pics and then look up the properties. 

look at the ones I already posted here. 

it says what camera he used and the date taken. 

this might be the key right now. he really might be switching on me

http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e76/amartin_72/


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)




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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)




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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

I downloaded one of the last pictures in the thread to look at it's exif data (embedded in the jpeg file), the date is indeed 2010-08-27!
See the screengrab from Faststone for details on date, camera etc. So he wasn't smart enough to delete the exif information of the *other* JBL sub he took the pictures of. This shouldn't be hard to prove


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

Wow! This is getting good! I really hope it works out for you! Nothing worse then scammers...this hobby doesnt need them!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Like I said, I'd tell him to go f off.


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

Faawwwkkkkk! I think im going to make every attempt to distinguish my item when I sell from now on. Wow, nice detective work Mike


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Here's your first picture you posted in this thread for comparison:









Different camera and a realistic date (2011-02-20) for it to be in your posession :laugh:


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## onebadmonte (Sep 4, 2008)

Hell yeah, scammer got busted. What a fool. Hahahahah!


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

All I found on that site is WWF photos....or is it WWE


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Looks like it's time for a new CACO thread.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Knobby Digital said:


>


That's what I got too. I just need to check all of the pics he sent and I need to see if any of his recent pics have the right date. Need to see if this is just a date error or if these are really that old. I also have link for his eBay to see if he bought this last year


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Looks like it's time for a new CACO thread.


I just sent this to that mod:



> Re: Scammer thread
> 
> Dear whatever-your-name-is,
> 
> ...


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)




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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

sqshoestring said:


> All I found on that site is WWF photos....or is it WWE


Go to his photobucket . The GTi folder is on the right. Scroll down. Someone check some of the other pics. Need to try to see If any of the pics are recent with same camera. I don't want him to blame date on camera. Need to round this up fast before he pulls plug. I am on my phone but need to run. I think we may have him. If that is the case I can't wait to bust his ass


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Come on guys. We need to get some more of the pics with recent date and same camera. If he has some recent uploads that were before march 4 that would help need to try to figure out if he has taken pics since those pics were taken. Unless the date thing is part of photobucket and the web thing. If that's the case we can call this solved. My pic in my for sale add also have date and name on paper. None of his did. Does anyone know if photobucket automatically attaches the date on pics when uploaded? Or are we looking at date taken? I am still not at computer right now.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

All I found were earlyer date pictures. It seems the latest pictures are of the sub 
The date Photobucket shows is taken from the exif info the camera put into the picture.
I found a folder with a date mentioned but it was a different camera, that date was one day off.
Folder says 17 oktober sale, picture was taken 2009-10-18 but different camera.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Wesayso said:


> All I found were earlyer date pictures. It seems the latest pictures are of the sub
> The date Photobucket shows is taken from the exif info the camera put into the picture.
> I found a folder with a date mentioned but it was a different camera, that date was one day off.
> Folder says 17 oktober sale, picture was taken 2009-10-18 but different camera.



are you saying thats bad news or just that all the pics are older dates? I am not sure what your saying since you have the frown face.

I am not at home so I cant look at this right now and see if there are more recent pics. 

are you telling me he has no pics past August or are all the dates jacked up? 

clarify that for me. please.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)




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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

All the pictures I checked from that same camera had a date prior to 2010-08-27.
What you are looking at is the date embedded in the picture itself. It's not a date from photobucket. I havent found a newer picture than the sub pictures taken with the same camera. I looked in several but not all folders.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

So we are not certain when the pic was taken or is that date determined when he loaded it on his computer? I know all my pics have the date done by the computer for me. As long as this isn't the same thing as the date stamp you see on some pics. If the date was from when he loaded them to his hard drive we would be in the clear. Again I still am at work so I can't look right now.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Every photo in the GTi folder has a date of 8-27-2010.

The picture of him holding the dog has a 1-10-2011 date.


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

imjustjason said:


> Every photo in the GTi folder has a date of 8-27-2010.
> 
> The picture of him holding the dog has a 1-10-2011 date.




which looks like his camera date is set correctly..or close enough..and he just fked up


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I knOw all the pics in the GTi folder are same date. I was looking for other pics with more recent date and same camera. If the dog pic is newer but same camera then we can say the date on the sub pics are accurate. The GTi picks are most likely the most recent pics added to his bucket but he might have kept them from original purchase in august. I knew he had bought before but only had confirmation of 1black sub. If these subs suck so bad then why does he seek them out? A little more digging and I will go to paypal with this info. With his statements and his video of a modified sub he modified plus the date thing should be enough reasonable doubt in court of law. He has proven nothing beyond words.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

That date is put on the jpeg by the camera and not by the computer. So it is possible the date of the camera was way off. I was hoping to find more pictures of the same camera with a later date stamp on them but had no luck. Sorry, I tried. If you look at his profile you see the latest folders he has added pictures to, the most recent folder is the folder containing the sub pictures.

I went back trough his pictures and found one with a date in the picture to sell stuff. Date visable in picture: 27-11-10, date stamp put on by camera: 2010-05-22. At that time the date on the camera seems to be off by almost 6 months. Not great news I guess. If the camera was still of by 6 months that would make the pictures from around january.

Here's the picture with a visual date:


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## sangellga (Dec 25, 2010)

JAX said:


>


Hoarder?


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

> I didnt read anywhere, where the guy hooked the sub up and tested it out


I agree that is BS. He even declined to hook it up to a DMM!


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Pretty convenient. Especially if the sub was dead and already in his hands. He got the sub and same night was telling me it was ruined.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Tried to look for a cached version of his folders but no luck. I hope you solve this, I'm off to sleep...


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

> Seriously, what a child. He can't be older than 21. All the other morons calling me names were 18, 19, etc. Illiterate, sloped-shouldered cave dwellers with their quad 18" PSi recones and their 5 1/4" component sets.


Sig worthy quote!


Sounds like it's got potential for solution. Good luck!!!!
D


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Dont know. not sure I got enough possible evidence to make paypal give me the decision. 

if I get it back I just want it how it was when I sent it which was working and not jacked up.

I wonder if this guy actually stuck a broom handle down the magnet to try to push on the cone like he suggested.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> **** that place. iamsonic is no better than the douche you sold the woofer to. What a bunch of children.


That moderator is full blown stupid ****ing retard!!!

I have NEVER seen such a crazy thing. It was full blown lynching they were trying to do. 

I just found out about CACO a week or so ago. I thought it was the coolest thing I found since finding this site. I have a sub I just bought from a member there. Once the deal is done I am not going back. The site is a bigger ****ing joke than CA.com or what ever the other site that is stacked with ****ing mindless punks. 

Glad I got some words in before it got locked. 

Like I give a ****ing rat's ass about pissing of a moderator. ****ing cretin.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Salami said:


> That moderator is full blown stupid ****ing retard!!!
> 
> I have NEVER seen such a crazy thing. It was full blown lynching they were trying to do.
> 
> ...



I was going to thank you as well for standing up for me. 

at this point I thought we found some proof of his bs but I dont know if its solid enough.

I just want the sub to be as it was. I am going to keep my money as long as it takes to find that out.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

I was hoping I was not overstepping boundaries but after finding out he was a mod I had no choice. 

I don't take that kind of ******** likely. 


If you get the smoking gun confirmed and once you get this settled and you don't mind: My gut is to call the dimwit mod out. I have never been banned before but I am going to go down in a blaze of flames. :cwm23: :rifle:


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## Patriot_tech (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey Jax - What a mess!

I guess I should have asked about the sub sooner than I did.

Hopefully he gets what he deserves. Karma is a *****!


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I hate selling subs. it seems like there is a 75% chance of something going wrong every time. I havnt had as much sub selling experience as amps but I for sure will take a video of any more subs I ever sell. 

this bs is not funny.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

JAX said:


> I thought we found some proof of his bs but I dont know if its solid enough.


Its solid enough... If they are going to take a blanket "it doesn't work" statement from the buyer, then they surely won't investigate the time stamps other than what you show them. 

dude, **** this guy... he deserves to be put out with his dog.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I submitted a statement. I informed them his pics were dated last August. We will see. I also informed them he told me to stick a broom handle up the magnet and I told them I have a video of a sub he molested. I also mentioned my ebay rating which is 5x higher than his on ebay .. I dont have his name but I have a listing he won . He has 97 Positive. I have 512+ positive. so..we will see what they say about it all.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

When I was making sketches of how I'm going to mount my AE IB speakers John at AE immediately said up or down-firing designs will void the warranty. Any cone sag at all would do that and not only with AE but other companies as well. 

Before the cellphone camera days, I used standard digital cameras and not once did I set the time right. Batteries would run out and I'd forget to reset etc. 

If the buyer was concerned with cone sag you could have looked it up, checked the sub and shipped it after confirming it wasn't there. No one forced you to ship it off once the money was in. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you could have gone with a little bit more insurance...

I'm not saying the buyer is correct but I think he still has some arguments that are decent. I am not however surprised that Diyma users would all jump to support the OP. When we had had our little fiasco it was a **** storm in here before I had a chance to retaliate. 

I hope PayPal rules for the one that is most entitled to win. I know that's not always the case. If he forged those pics or brutalized your coil I hope you win, otherwise it should be a flip of a coin imo.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I am not saying I shouldn't have looked it over more closely. Fact of the matter is I didnt know what spyder sag was till this event. I have been told not to take it back by some. I am not out for that. I just want it back like it was when I sent it with slight wear but functioning fine far as I knew. Unfortunately I haunt had tons of sub experience. This has taught me quite a bit. As for the "evidence". I am not so much trying to prove him wrong as much as I am trying to show he has done a poor job of proving anything at all. He has said my sub was ruined yet offered nothing to prove that. So I offer the possibility that it's not quite the truth. I will be fine if I get my sub back unmolested. And working. Of corse if I don't keep it then it will be dang near given away thanks to this. Might use it in the HT system inside. Unless he purposely screwed up the sub then it's a split opinion on the real shape of the sub. His pics don't show that much more than what might be seen on any 5yr old sub. Some say it's ruined others say it's still good. Problem is he refused to test it in any way. Now I am just worried I Am getting back a huge doorstop


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Hey at least you get something back. 

There is no doubt that level of cone sag is workable, probably unnoticeable in performance. Manufacturers could also use it as an excuse. I know that in order to bottom out an AE sub you need to feed it massive amounts of power, the suspension is tight enough to keep it from crapping itself and motor strength dies down with large excursions as well. Even 10mm of sag might need 1kw to bottom the sub out.


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## computerjlt (Nov 29, 2010)

can i jump in on the bandwagon?!

jax sold me a junk amp! it even has broken speaker terminals!


lol i kid; that was ups' bad; i love that amp; just wish i had time to install it or fix the terminals lol


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

computerjlt said:


> can i jump in on the bandwagon?!
> 
> jax sold me a junk amp! it even has broken speaker terminals!
> 
> ...


I did get a recommendation to contact a guy about a terminal from the PG Forum. He told me he doesn't sell them. He does fix them. I guess he either has none or is keeping them for repairs. So I am still hunting one


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## computerjlt (Nov 29, 2010)

thats cool; if i get some free time this weekend i'll probably pull the board out; desolder that terminal strip and just straighten the pins. i dont think with the one screw hole broken off it will cause any problems. those legs are very strong on their own.

hell i may even run it as is; that amps not going to be seen by anyone :-/


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## Patriot_tech (Apr 28, 2008)

Come to think of it, I have an IDQV1 that had a sagging spider I noticed a couple months ago. After a couple posts on ID site, Eric recommended that I try to 'warm up' the spider with a heat gun and hold the cone up to where the spider is level and let it cool.

It worked like a charm. Smooth cone travel and the spider is back to normal just like the rest of the ones I have. It was literally fixed in 5 minutes. 

Sounds to me like the guy is playing the switcheroo. Good luck, I hope there is a positive outcome on this for you.


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

Caveat emptor ......that about sums it up! If you decide you want to save a few bucks and buy something used...you are taking a chance. Its a gamble...always..live with your choice. 

If it was a blatant lie about a product, then that is fraud...but this is sooooo close either way....that the resonsibility will fall on to the buyer. to the buyer---man up, suck it up, move on...learn a lesson


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

If I am buying anything and I feel something is a deal breaker on specifics then I won't buy it until I am sure. This spider issue


If I buy something and I need specific requirements met and I don't get from the sellers mouth a confirmation but I go ahead and pay then it's just as much my fault as it is anyone elses. If I don't confirm it then I would be just as liable. I never said there was no spider issue but when he asked I didn't know what he was talking about. Technically we both slipped. I wasn't after him to buy it. He was after me to sell to him. Which also makes the switch play seem odd. He went from offer of $125 all the way to $175 which now really seems odd. He wanted it bad. When he first got it the issue wasn't that bad. His words. He was wushu washy on the severity of the sub. Next time he spoke the sub has coil issues and spider issues. He may be switching on me. Hopefully my pics will show this or not. It's all about waiting now. But I have learned a lot from this deal


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Wesayso said:


>


Wait, where was the GTi shipped to? Cause the "grimreper" dude's profile says Madison on CACO...so why would "6btdakota"'s Photobucket have "grimreper"'s pics? Yet another account?

I'm not one to "show up on someone's doorstep" but if it was shipped here...


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

ryan s said:


> Wait, where was the GTi shipped to? Cause the "grimreper" dude's profile says Madison on CACO...so why would "6btdakota"'s Photobucket have "grimreper"'s pics? Yet another account?
> 
> I'm not one to "show up on someone's doorstep" but if it was shipped here...


It went to Wisconsin for sure. I found repair on caco but didn't see anything I thought was relevant. Repair also put in his two cents in the post on caraudio.org. 

There were a bunch of sub parts and sub posts on caco so I wouldn't be surprised if I get back a totally different sub. 

Just seems like more than usual guy bought a sub. The whole scenario is suspicious. He was ready to send sub back soon as it arrived . Weird and suspicious


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

I WOULD NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING HE RETURNS!!!! Once you accept it you are giving up your $$$ and Paypal will side with buyer. If he ships it to you reject delivery and wait until Paypal has made a judgement. If they find in your favor he can keep the sub, if they find in his let him send it back and if its not your sub file a claim against him and send the pics again. This way his acct is tied up and you have your $$$ back.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

At the moment I do not know if he is sending it or what. I had the option to take it back and refund his money but I refused to just accept that arrangement without seeing the sub first. Honestly never had to do this before so the process is new to me


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

if it makes you feel any better... looks like hes been banned


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ryan s said:


> Wait, where was the GTi shipped to? Cause the "grimreper" dude's profile says Madison on CACO...so why would "6btdakota"'s Photobucket have "grimreper"'s pics? Yet another account?
> 
> I'm not one to "show up on someone's doorstep" but if it was shipped here...


grim"reper" is the one who called me a dipshit when I started ripping people apart in that thread. I wonder if he's one in the same, or if they are friends? Mike- check your PP for dakota's shipping address. Let's find out if these guys might be the same person.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Something else is weird- dakota was banned on Monday night. Look at his profile- it says "Last activity: Yesterday at 8:42pm". When I checked it after he got banned, his last activity was 3/7/10 at 7:53pm. His alter-ego, amartin_72, also shows "last activity Yesterday at 8:42pm."


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

I think his ban was from having multiple accounts.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Dakota/amartin's profile says he lives in Deforest, Wi. It's 15 miles from the center of Madison. Either grimreper is this same kid or they're friends. Grimreper has been a member for years... why would he have a NOOB host a pic for him in photobucket instead of uploading it himself?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

The whole thing stinks.


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

if it looks like ****, smells like ****, and when you poke it with a stick, feels like ****... its probably ****.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

dangit. this process is slow. I have not heard from the punk since the big thread. 

I would like to know if he has sent it.

what if it shows up and I am not there? I cant refuse it then.


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> Dakota/amartin's profile says he lives in Deforest, Wi. It's 15 miles from the center of Madison. Either grimreper is this same kid or they're friends. Grimreper has been a member for years... why would he have a NOOB host a pic for him in photobucket instead of uploading it himself?


Donno, but i have bought from grim before with no issues


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

truckerfte said:


> Donno, but i have bought from grim before with no issues


What'd you buy? A W10GTi?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Any comment back from the PM to the CACO mod?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Any comment back from the PM to the CACO mod?


Not a peep. And I'm not banned yet either, so either he read it and still didn't give a ****, or he hasn't read it yet.


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

JAX said:


> dangit. this process is slow. I have not heard from the punk since the big thread.
> 
> I would like to know if he has sent it.
> 
> what if it shows up and I am not there? I cant refuse it then.


I suppose you can bring it back to the carrier's office and tell them that you're refusing the package.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

If you are forced by paypal to accept the return (after judgement of course) and something is wrong they will not get involved. They will simply tell you to fill out a police report....if the police dept reacts the way they did to me you will get laughed at A LOT! If you lose your F'd. Paypal told me directly that they have never sided with a seller (via ebay, and it was several years ago but it was pretty ****ty regardless). I hope to hell it works out for you. This guy is clearly playing a game and hopefully paypal will see it (I HIGHLY DOUBT IT THOUGH! PAYPAL SUCKS!)


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## tusk (Feb 20, 2008)

ryan s said:


> Wait, where was the GTi shipped to? Cause the "grimreper" dude's profile says Madison on CACO...so why would "6btdakota"'s Photobucket have "grimreper"'s pics? Yet another account?
> 
> I'm not one to "show up on someone's doorstep" but if it was shipped here...


^I've always wanted to hear your car seeing that you're a local... Deforest is right up the road from me


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

tusk said:


> ^I've always wanted to hear your car seeing that you're a local... Deforest is right up the road from me


It honestly doesn't sound very good right now :laugh: I can't get the driver door panel and door pull to stop rattling...the Violent Bass Air is too much for the plastic :laugh:


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Hey, I just wanted to chime in. I'm on caco a lot so I have a good feel for who's who. 

Get in touch with Nismos14 - he's a member here and one of the top dogs on caco. He will handle this I'm sure. Good guy, I know him in person.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

bd5034 said:


> Hey, I just wanted to chime in. I'm on caco a lot so I have a good feel for who's who.
> 
> Get in touch with Nismos14 - he's a member here and one of the top dogs on caco. He will handle this I'm sure. Good guy, I know him in person.



I know who nismo14 is and he knows me. what is he going to do about it? not being an ass...I appreciate you saying that. I just dont know what nismo14 can do.

At this point I have proof the sub he is talking about is mine. He has changed his story from a little sag to a stuck coil. 

I dont know if he purposely screwed it up or if its my sub to begin with. 

No proof on any of it actually. 

My pics with actual current date doesnt look like his pic with date 7 months ago.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

JAX said:


> I know who nismo14 is and he knows me. what is he going to do about it? not being an ass...I appreciate you saying that. I just dont know what nismo14 can do.
> 
> At this point I have proof the sub he is talking about is mine. He has changed his story from a little sag to a stuck coil.
> 
> ...


well, I was thinking since he's an admin on caco he could paint a more complete picture of the buyer/scammer guy. Also, maybe he could help clear up the connection between this guy and grimreper?

I don't even know if that's useful at this point but it's a thought.


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## BossHogg95slt (Feb 28, 2011)

Agreed .. ppl tend to throw certain things off when purchasing used equipment, picture angles can be decieving sometimes but at the end used equipment is just that used no matter how well taken care of. Subs especially suffer a bit but if anything he should thank u for breakin that sumbitch in I dont know about any one else but break in time sucks and I hate it any time I have to do it be it foe me or some one else


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Dude, sorry to hear about this. I have had a few transactions over at CACO also, and can't believe the amount of immaturity that revealed itself in that thread. Hope this turns out better, because at least over here we know how upstanding of a member you are.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

chithead said:


> Dude, sorry to hear about this. I have had a few transactions over at CACO also, and can't believe the amount of immaturity that revealed itself in that thread. Hope this turns out better, because at least over here we know how upstanding of a member you are.



Funny to see you pop in this thread...I think this was your old sub..didnt you sell one to Kizz or Krizz? sorry I cant recall his correct name..

but I thought he said he got it from you. my memory could be off.

But thanks. I spend most of my time on this forum because it seems to be more mature than the others. at least on here people are willing to let both parties speak rather than all out lynching on the spot.

its kind of insulting that a "power seller" on their forum gets a beat down by a banned member with no rep . oh well. 

when this is over I will be turning in my membership


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I really thought that it was my old one!!! Man that thing was in perfect shape too, so this guy has GOT to be crazy if he thinks there is anything wrong with it.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

chithead said:


> I really thought that it was my old one!!! Man that thing was in perfect shape too, so this guy has GOT to be crazy if he thinks there is anything wrong with it.



yep its your old sub. I could read your serial # off your pics in the post. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...all-diyma-w10gti-16ov-2-other-misc-items.html


so you had it then KIZZ did. and I did for like a month. sold it to fund kitchen remodel and look what it has turned into.

unfortunately this may go on for another month. I havnt heard anything and I sent paypal 14pages of conversation with the buyer. The buyer has provided ZERO evidence of anything to paypal. if he has it doesnt say he has. same story with the post on caco...He made claims and then provided no proof 

the freakin pics in that post were uploaded by me. He was too lazy or a fraud. I cant decide which. 

pissing me off all over again.


still this "sag" looks almost not there at all..imo..


----------



## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I think the guy is trying to scam you for sure. It was always in it's original box the whole time I had it, and I believe Kizz ran it IB (can't see where it would have been damaged mounted like that). And I know for a fact you take care of your stuff based on the old school Orion mids I got off you almost two years ago.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

chithead said:


> I think the guy is trying to scam you for sure. It was always in it's original box the whole time I had it, and I believe Kizz ran it IB (can't see where it would have been damaged mounted like that). And I know for a fact you take care of your stuff based on the old school Orion mids I got off you almost two years ago.



of course I take care of my stuff...half of it barely gets used. the other half is used like 2 weeks till I get a wild hair again and buy something else...lol. 

I am dreading this if they make me take it back cause I foresee it not looking at all like the pic I just posted. at least from the big ordeal he made of it. 

wtf was JBL thinking anyhow with putting a serial number on a stupid easily removable sticker...?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

chithead said:


> I think the guy is trying to scam you for sure. It was always in it's original box the whole time I had it, and I believe Kizz ran it IB (can't see where it would have been damaged mounted like that). And I know for a fact you take care of your stuff based on the old school Orion mids I got off you almost two years ago.



here is what he sent me the next morning after he got the sub. claims sub was stored somewhere with crap on top and it crushed the spyder...

funny I found a post from another member on some other forum and they used the same exact frase " from improper storage" 

just a little to convenient. I know this sub wasnt stored anywhere under some boxes .

here was what he told me :

"Here are the Pictures of the spider. i dont mean to be a **** but the only things i needed the woofer to have is a flat spider and not burnt coils anything else i wouldnt care but I have had hundreds of subs i know when they are not going to work like they should Ive had ones with sagged spiders from improper storage (holding the cone in for long periods of time by stacking boxes on it and this is one of them and it is not going to work for me. if you watch the sub when it plays or compare it to a normal one you can see it is ruined.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Ruined my ass, I used that sub one time, fed it 300 watts in one of those "some assembly required" prefab enclosures from Wally World, and it blew the box apart.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

JAX said:


> if you watch the sub when it plays or compare it to a normal one you can see it is ruined.


He should have provided a video of that if it was truely the case.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

He's basically ignoring this whole thing and you're being proactive and furnishing all kinds of documentation and evidence to PayPal. Couple that with the fact that the financial sum of PayPal transactions you run through annually probably rivals the GDP of South Africa, and I think it's safe to assume they're going to conclude this dispute in your favor.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

To bad the pansy wont chime in on this forum.....he is a member here too correct?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

rexroadj said:


> To bad the pansy wont chime in on this forum.....he is a member here too correct?



but we are not baller enough around here for his bunch of thugs . were a bunch of old folk.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

wish I would have seen this thread sooner. I have here two working W10GTi's MkI, and they look exactly like the one with supposed "sag". That's just the way the spider turned out on that particular sub:











Yes, the spider rolls around the voice coil former is at a very very slightly lower level than the outer edge where it is glued to the frame, but I wouldn't call that sag in any way shape or form. Hope everything works out for you.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Oscar said:


> wish I would have seen this thread sooner. I have here two working W10GTi's MkI, and they look exactly like the one with supposed "sag". That's just the way the spider turned out on that particular sub:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I need to print this out and fax it to them. this is good to see. 

My problem with the kid all along is that he thinks just cause he owned some other brand that had a sag spyder that all subs are built the same. wouldnt even consider it.

He has a new black version and it looks different so my sub has to be broke. My other problem is he says the coil is now messed up. it wasnt before. I am worried he messed it up on purpose so it would have "internal damage" 

he did suggest to me I could shove a broom stick up the magnet..wtf?

so anyhow I am fighting really hard to prove he hasnt showned anything other than buyers remorse .

this will be nice to use for my side since my sub is just like your working pair.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I sent them that pic just so I would be sure they could see the same thing. fax might have made pic hard to see. thanks


I am tempted to start another thread on caco just to show them jerkoff's what they dont know.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

JAX said:


> I sent them that pic just so I would be sure they could see the same thing. fax might have made pic hard to see. thanks
> 
> 
> I am tempted to start another thread on caco just to show them jerkoff's what they dont know.


I dunno man... doesn't seem like there is much you can do to convince them otherwise.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Yeah, ignorance is bliss and they be some happy Sum'Bitches


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I want to do it just so I can say here , now go **** off. 

and then they can ban me for all I care as I am done with that place.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

you can't "shove a broomstick" up the pole piece in this speaker or any speaker that has a small vent hole. And even if you could, what would that accomplish? Absolutely nothing. It looks like a large vent because it is radiused (on the aluminum part) for quite operation at high-power levels, but nowhere the size needed to fit anything, except perhaps for his teeny pecker:











the pic with my two WGTi's was taken with my cell phone camera, but if you need a 10MP pic for more clarity, I can take one no problem.

Oh and if you get it back and it's still working (IE: if he didn't sabotage the coils), I might just be interested in taking it off your hands.



Just found this doing a google image search. The new MKII W10GTi DEFINITELY has a different spider, it is much more yellow (as opposed to orange-ish for the MKI) and looks to be much more level:









So they can't really be compared to the older ones. You can also point out that ALL of the WGTi mobile audio subwoofers use a _progressive_ style spider, in which the stiffness increases the further away from equilibrium--and the most common way to do this is with taller and taller rolls as you get from the center of the spider out to the edge of the frame. This sometimes gives the mistaken illusion that the center is sunken in, when it's really that the taller rolls on the outer edge are sticking up further up/down.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

If you can take a better pic that might be useful. Can't hurt. I am sending as much as I can. If I get it back and it works it will be for sale again.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Oscar said:


> you can't "shove a broomstick" up the pole piece in this speaker or any speaker that has a small vent hole. And even if you could, what would that accomplish? Absolutely nothing. It looks like a large vent because it is radiused (on the aluminum part) for quite operation at high-power levels, but nowhere the size needed to fit anything, except perhaps for his teeny pecker:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yep. that is the issue here. He is comparing a new sub made in China out of different parts to the ones made in USA that are few years older. 

Of course its not unexpected that there may be a difference. I think he just changed his mind


I started a new thread at CACO just to put it in their face. I kept it civil for now. I just wanted to provide some more pics and say screw you without saying it.....yet


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

a couple of 10MP pics


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## jblw10gtimk11 (Jan 16, 2011)

i believe the older spiders are softer than the new mk11 spiders. They look to be a different material and softer than the mk11s. What does the guy expect buying a 4-5 year old sub. He knew it was that old before he bought it. Buyers remorse is all it is. Or maybe he started to do his recone fabrication on it and somehow messed it up. Needless to say i wish the thred was still open on the other forum, cause i would love to sculd the op, and the mod who took sides. good luck, hope hes stuck with it, or you get it back like it was. James b


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't think he's attempting to recone since JBL uses a specially made wire wound a specific way, and they don't make it available to anyone:


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## jblw10gtimk11 (Jan 16, 2011)

No he does something to the front of the cone, he replaces the front cone with like a all flat front on his mk11, his spider isnt yellow, but a tan color like the old gti. His tinsel leads have no rubber coating on them.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Paypal has decided that he gets his money back if I get the sub back in the condition I shipped it out in. 

That's fine as long as I get a working sub back. 

He has till April 7th to get them tracking or they close case and he keeps sub I keep my money. 

Douchebag


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

You should say the sub is not the same when you get it back. You should say the spider has a rise in it and it sits to high  Lol!!!


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

4 more days for the douche to send paypal a tracking # if not they close it and he keeps it. I keep my $$


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

2days and counting before time is up. 

How do you just miss this kind of deadline I wonder unless he already thought he lost?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Because he is a damned idiot who thought he was going to get one past you and got caught.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Well he must be stupid cause they gave him the win as long as he ships it back and it's like it was when I shipped it. 

So either he is stupid , doesn't have the money to ship it or changed his mind. 

It's ******** and I am tired of waiting


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't blame you.

And the guy is dumb.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Because he is a damned idiot who thought he was going to get one past you and got caught.


Bingo!!


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Because he is a damned idiot who thought he was going to get one past you and got caught.


/thread


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Well the tool submitted tracking info last minute late yesterday so it is supposed to be coming back. 

The drama continues. Now to see what comes back and in what shape.


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

Hey I have been a victim too. I just got that Boston Pro 10 and look what I found!! 










THE ANTI SAGG


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Therum said:


> Hey I have been a victim too. I just got that Boston Pro 10 and look what I found!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so she made it ok? I was meaning to ask you


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

LOL J/K everything is fine.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

JAX said:


> Well the tool submitted tracking info last minute late yesterday so it is supposed to be coming back.
> 
> The drama continues. Now to see what comes back and in what shape.


when you receive it, check the impedance of the coils and give it a good looking over if you're still wanting to sell it. Shoot me a price.


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## computerjlt (Nov 29, 2010)

Therum said:


> Hey I have been a victim too. I just got that Boston Pro 10 and look what I found!!
> 
> []http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss255/therum1/2011-04-07_20-13-34_854.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> THE ANTI SAGG


you know; now that you mention it; I think the amp i bought from JAX had some spyder sag in it!!!


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

LOL. you know what. I think thats what happened to my pants in the 90's. Damn you Jax!! But in all seriousness. It shouldnt be labeled spider sag. I vote for suspension sag. I would use surround sag but that doesnt sound as good. since the surround is supporting most (99.9%) of the weight of the cone and voice coil.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I will def check it out and have pics a plenty for it. I posted a new add for it. 

I was going to keep it but right now I am not using a sub


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Therum said:


> LOL. you know what. I think thats what happened to my pants in the 90's. Damn you Jax!! But in all seriousness. It shouldnt be labeled spider sag. I vote for suspension sag. I would use surround sag but that doesnt sound as good. since the surround is supporting most (99.9%) of the weight of the cone and voice coil.


actually, in most speakers, the spider(s) provide approx. 80% of the stiffness.


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## brandinooooo (Jan 9, 2011)

yo hes lying to you. look in his first pic, theres a scratch on the pillar to the left of the lead and a jbl sticker. now look on your pic, same angle with no scratch.

wasnt your sub in the pic


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## audionublet (Jun 9, 2009)

You know what they say ....

90% of all statistics are made up on the spot!


including this one!


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## MyName (Oct 14, 2009)

audionublet said:


> You know what they say ....
> 
> 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot!



Yup. 47.3% of people know that!


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

brandinooooo said:


> yo hes lying to you. look in his first pic, theres a scratch on the pillar to the left of the lead and a jbl sticker. now look on your pic, same angle with no scratch.
> 
> wasnt your sub in the pic



which pic ? I looked at them for hours. 

It appeared we took the pics of opposite sides or this was 2 subs. I forgot now what the reason was that I decided I couldnt determine.

I do have some pics of the terminals and the labels on them are worn uniquely so if the sub I get back isnt the same then I might be able to see that. 

unless you can point out where my pic and his pic are same but not same sub.

even so. I dont know what I can do about it since paypal disregarded everything I said.

I still do not know if they will do anything if the sub if broken or if its not the same sub.

I think as long as they verify it made it to my house then they dont care.


here is what I need to see when it arrives. the serial label on these is easily swapped out so thats not enough but the terminal lables are not removable without destroying them. 

still I dont think it will matter. but I will appeal if I see enough reason. unless it works which it did before.


terminal black side










terminal red side


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

It says his last activity here was in January, so he hasn't been reading this thread. I would definitely check that the serial number is the same as the one you sent, it might not have occurred to him to swap the stickers.

On the issue of the pics and dates, even if the camera was never set, the dates being so far apart, yet presented as if they were all taken at the same time (roughly, they were all supposed to be of YOUR sub) is highly suspicious.
Curious, is the pic with the current date the one that has the close up of the spider?


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

this was the close up of the sub that I took before it went out.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Oh, that was YOUR close up pic. So every one of the pics he took were of the same date?

BTW, I'm truly sorry if I am beating a dead horse here. I just read through both threads and my CSI nerve is inflamed like a sumbuck.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

danssoslow said:


> Oh, that was YOUR close up pic. So every one of the pics he took were of the same date?
> 
> BTW, I'm truly sorry if I am beating a dead horse here. I just read through both threads and my CSI nerve is inflamed like a sumbuck.



not sure I am following you but I was in the sun all day so my mind is toasted..but feel free to explain your thoughts.

I can always appeal the verdict if the sub is an imposter or doesnt work


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

JAX said:


> not sure I am following you but I was in the sun all day so my mind is toasted..but feel free to explain your thoughts.


I assure you the lack of communication is on my end. 

I admit I might have gotten lost in all that I have read; but I was under the impression that all of the pics he took were from 2010, except for one, which was a recent date. No?

It is of no concern really; as I thought that close-up spider pic was something HE took.


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

Oscar said:


> actually, in most speakers, the spider(s) provide approx. 80% of the stiffness.


Umm supporting facts?


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

Hey Wheres Manville Smith when you need him. Doesn't he still breeze through the forums every now and then. Hey Jax, if I am intruding on your thread please let me know and I will start another thread on the side topic.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

danssoslow said:


> It says his last activity here was in January, so he hasn't been reading this thread.


Last activity only means he has not logged in. 

He still can read the thread.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Salami said:


> Last activity only means he has not logged in.
> 
> He still can read the thread.


Salami never has agreed with me. 

I thought about this while explaining to my girlfriend what I have been doing on the computer tonight. I hope this isn't the case, and that the buyer never gave the serial number a second thought; if the old switcharoo is indeed what he's trying to pull.


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## brandinooooo (Jan 9, 2011)

This is what i mean. i dont know if its just me or what but i would notice something like this on my sub.

your pic - no scratch 









his pics - very noticable scratch


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I see that mark on my original pics here with my drill

I got the sub and it looks to be mine.

I have tried to check the ohms and I get 3.9 ohms. its wired + + _ _ 

the positives are on one side. the negs are on the other. not sure how to check each coil on this sub. so I am not sure I got the right reading. 

the way its wired it should be a 3ohm load. but then again I had to go back and forth trying to get my son his bath.

the ends of the wires were still cut from when I sent them so he never hooked it up unless he cut the wires off for no reason after.


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

Yes that would be correct. 3.9ohms the VC's are ok. JBL defines RE at 3.8ohms. I wonder why they advertise the sub as 3ohms when its really 4. heh... interesting..


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Therum said:


> Umm supporting facts?


Umm, supporting facts that the surround accounts for 99.9%?


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

Oscar said:


> Umm, supporting facts that the surround accounts for 99.9%?


Ok maybe not 99.9. Id go for 90%. Have you ever disassembled a sub? Compare the stiffness of the surround vs the stiffness of a spider and then tell me that the spider can support 80% of the weight of the cone and voice coil. Maybe my number is still high but I wouldnt put more on the spider as I would the surround.  But I did some research the other day and the current topic encompasses 2 *possible* but different issues.

1. Spider sag, the spider sagging due to the spider itself being stretched due to over excursion. Think stretching a t-shirt.

2. Dont know what to call it "Suspension sag"? , Due to the inability of the suspension to return the cone & voice coil to its intended center of travel, caused by repeated over excursion, general abuse, age etc. This will give the illusion of spider sag but in reality the cone is never returning to center. I have seen this in old abused JL Subs

Please note that these are my hypothesies and should not be taken as hard core facts. Please feel free to offer your ideas even if they are in disagreement with mine.


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## Therum (Apr 18, 2009)

Awesome!


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Therum said:


> Ok maybe not 99.9. Id go for 90%. Have you ever disassembled a sub?


Re-Coning the mighty Cerwin-Vega! Stroker 18 - TCCoA Forums


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

Tccoa? I am a member there myself. I used to make some custome heatshields long time ago. I have owned 2 v8 birds and 1 sc I wish I kept. 

Cool


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have about 40 pictures of when I reconed 4 Stroker 18s. My recones came from CV and the voice coils were already glued to the spiders.



Oscar said:


> Re-Coning the mighty Cerwin-Vega! Stroker 18 - TCCoA Forums


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Cool


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

cajunner said:


> I think you made a mistake reconing these.
> 
> here's why:
> 
> ...


No mistake here. One of my Stroker 18s was original, yet in need of a recone due to the spider detaching at the triple-joint. So what I did, was I sliced a wedge/pie shaped area of spider material in order to peek at the location of the top of the voice coil windings. The windings were just a smidge (like maybe 0.010" below the top of the top-plate. The top-plate is not under-cut. BOTH the top-plate and the pole piece are smooth and go straight down. I had a good look at both magnetic gaps of both my Strokers before I reconed them. I did not glue the surround to the cone. It comes like this from Legacy Sound Service when you order the recone kits. This cut-away is a Stroker 15, but you get the idea:



















as for the JB weld, the cone in the kit is nowhere near the stiffness of the OEM Stroker cones. Since the whole assembly was significantly lighter than the original, and it is widely known that the Stroker 18 cones would fold at the outer edge due to the extreme excursion they are capable of, I did not want to take a chance and gave it some extra strength right where it needs it without any penalty in weight.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I used black CA glue for the spiders and contact cement (Landau top glue) for the surround to basket.

If anyone wants I can post the pictures up. I never thought anyone would want to see them...


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

cajunner said:


> okay, looking at the cut-away of the stroker, there's a significant amount of coil above and below the top plate, where your measured coil is equal to the top plate.
> 
> this indicates you have a too-short coil in your woofer!
> 
> ...


Wrong again. That cut-away is a stroker 15, which has a 0.5" thick top-plate. Yes with THAT MOTOR, there would be windings above the top-plate. I didn't recone a stroker 15, I reconed a Stroker 18. The Stroker 18 has a 1" thick top-plate. So no, I do not have too-short of a coil. LSS indeed offers the right kit for the job. When I took that pick, I had already removed the top-spider, so yes perhaps the assembly was a bit sunken in, and I took that picture mostly just for point-of-reference. Here is a 100% original stroker 18 assembly (the one I actually removed) so you can see the original coil:











as far as the glueing, I know the extra adhesive on the bottom of the spider/former was not necessary. I just did it cause I wanted to. Also the JB weld is alot thinner as you go in the radial direction towards the neck of the cone. Necessary? Judging from what that motor has been known to do to original *much stronger* oem CV stroker cones, I didn't want to take a chance, especially when there was going to be absolutely no penalty in weight. In fact, that cone in the pic I just took to showcase the coil length was starting to show some signs of buckling at the inner edge of the surround.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

cajunner said:


> the motor geometry doesn't change even if the top plate increases by 1/2", IMHO...
> 
> you measured the top plate at 1", and you measured your replacement coil at 1", that's even-hung and a very loud but also very distortion prone configuration.
> 
> ...


Well my pic right there is proof. I mean of course that cone isn't gonna have a serial number on it, but what else would some one need to see it's original? Yes you have your own theory about what it came with from the factory, but I have the actual thing sitting here next to me. Sorry but comparing this cone and assembly to the assortment of Stroker 15s and Stroker 12s that I have here leads to me to believe that it is indeed an original oem part. And as I said, the top spider was already removed when that pic was taken with the wedge cut out. Of course it won't be in exact alignment as it is supposed to. Oh and you'd be surprised just how much this cone is moved with that motor. The 1.5" p-p that CV claims is real. Yes, on the recone. And on the original before I dismantled it (the coils weren't burned out or anything).


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