# US High End Amps Vs. International High End Amps



## rayheatfan (Feb 25, 2011)

Ok. So my question is... is it really a personal preference once you start looking into high end amps or is there really a difference to prefer one over the other?

Let's use the following Amps below for comparison based on 3-way front stage system (just for example) if you were to enter a sound competition which would you choose and why? How would you rank US amps listed below compared to International Amps listed below? 

*US Amps*

Zapco
Arc Audio
Tru Technology

*International Amps*

Sinfoni
Brax
Audison Thesis HV Venti


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## Colby Webre (Sep 2, 2010)

Personal preference...End thread.

But really...Its all personal preference.:juggle:


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Colby Webre said:


> Personal preference...End thread.
> 
> But really...Its all personal preference.:juggle:


Yes and no... Actually you're missing some some strong points in your comment. 

Brax and Sinfoni have a lifetime warranty - believe the HV does too 
It also depends on the installation, Audison Thesis accepts balanced input, Sinfoni is thin and Brax has a High-End amp that is 13"x13" large and puts out almost 300rms x4 @ 4 ohm (nothing close in US) : http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/industry-shop-talk/54066-new-amp-brax.html 

And those are only a few brands, there's many more pure High-End in Japan (Phass, uDimension, Musee, etc... and in Europe like Mosconi, Steg, Ground Zero, Areon, HSS, etc... 

Kelvin


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

You missed Genesis and Audiowave:

Welcome to Genesis UK - Genesis ICE Car Audio - Automotive Amplifiers - The home of pure music

Holding Page - Audio Wave

Ground Zero, whome I've dealt with for years, I wouldn't quite class as hi-end, as far as I know they don't build their own amps:

:: Ground Zero :: Amplifier / GZPA 1.6500spl

"same" as

Power Drive 5000 « InPhase Audio

I haven't had the two side by side, but the internals look near identical-only visible difference I can see from pics if the colour of the board-blue in the in Phase and red in the Ground Zero-but I don't proclaim to be any expert on that!

Some of their subs share the TC sounds chasis-not sure what else.

Not saying their products lack quality, but I'd be inclined to go for a "start to finish" brand for the money they ask-their amp is about £1k more than the In Phase


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> You missed Genesis and Audiowave:
> 
> Welcome to Genesis UK - Genesis ICE Car Audio - Automotive Amplifiers - The home of pure music
> 
> ...


Regarding Ground Zero, I was talking about that one: :: Ground Zero :: Amplifier / GZPA Reference 4 (always wanted to try it) 

But yeah, they don't make much of their own stuffs... 

Kelvin


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*I personally would prefer to stay US as much as I could. Of the above choices, probably would lean Zapco Refs.*


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

No Zed??? I thought Zed was considered as 'high end' as any other US amp manufacturer. I say this because i was considering the new Leviathan as my next amp.


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## slickone (Mar 6, 2005)

Of the amps you have listed, I would pick the one that will give you the most support in competition. Unless your competing in EMMA, I would stick to ones that are working in the US as far as support...

I won't get into a pissing match about origin, but of the amps you have listed, I would say Arc then probably Zapco. I don't know where they stand since staff have went different ways (zapco)...but in the past few years, you couldn't get better support from those 2


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Small comparo from a german magazine, feel free to draw your own conclusion: 

















Klang = SQ (details in the music) 
Leistung = Performance (power) 
Ausstattung = Settings (Xover, EQ) 
Verarbeitung = Quality (Construction, reliability) 
48 is really good - 20 is not so good 

Kelvin 

PS: Zapco Zar = Zapco Ref


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## NRA4ever (Jul 19, 2010)

I really like the US Amp I just bought. Its a Merlin 4 channel . I understand its a Zed design. It sure is more than 4x90 watts. Its very strong & clean.


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## rayheatfan (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm starting to lean towards Brax after reading the comparison from the German magazine. I'm learning more and more everyday about high end amps. I know there is a lot of strong points to picking an amp. How important is the quality of RCA's? for example.. Stinger HPM1 their lowest end or HPM3 being their highest grade? Is the difference really big?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

NRA4ever said:


> I really like the US Amp I just bought. Its a Merlin 4 channel . I understand its a Zed design. It sure is more than 4x90 watts. Its very strong & clean.


I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure the new US Amps aren't a Zed design. 

Kelvin


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> Regarding Ground Zero, I was talking about that one: :: Ground Zero :: Amplifier / GZPA Reference 4 (always wanted to try it)
> 
> But yeah, they don't make much of their own stuffs...
> 
> Kelvin


Nice looking amp, but for $2500 I'd still be looking at an amp built from start to finish "in house".

If I was in the States I'd buy American for some simple reasons:

Support from manuafcturer
Cost, got to be cheaper for amp of equivalent spec/quality
Supporting my local industry


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> Small comparo from a german magazine, feel free to draw your own conclusion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure when the chart was compiled or whether anyone in the States knows/cares about it-but there are two Hifonics in Europe; one the Maxxsonics product as distributed in the US and UK and the other owned by Audio Design GmbH. There appears to be some of the Maxxsonics product on the Audio Design website, but I believe most of Audio Design's Hifonics range is custom made.

Google Translate


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> Nice looking amp, but for $2500 I'd still be looking at an amp built from start to finish "in house".
> 
> If I was in the States I'd buy American for some simple reasons:
> 
> ...


Yeah... For that price, I'd buy a Brax X4. However, if it sounds good then why not even if it's not made "In house" from start to finish? I also like the Bias setting - not many High-End dual mono 4 channel amps around either. Reading and seems like it's built like a tank too. 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> Not sure when the chart was compiled or whether anyone in the States knows/cares about it-but there are two Hifonics in Europe; one the Maxxsonics product as distributed in the US and UK and the other owned by Audio Design GmbH. There appears to be some of the Maxxsonics product on the Audio Design website, but I believe most of Audio Design's Hifonics range is custom made.
> 
> Google Translate


Always wondered about that actually. They have some High-End components that do well in the tests: SQ wise the MX is supposed to bring more details than a Focal KRX2 set and be close to the KRX3 and the SR6500 for example (same magazine). 

Kelvin


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> However, if it sounds good then why not even if it's not made "In house" from start to finish?
> 
> Kelvin


Partly out of snobbery, but mainly because I'm not buying a product off a car audio manufacturer, I'm buying a very expensive amp from what is essentially a marketing company.

As said before G-Z do have some great products, but how much is designed and engineered by them and how much by what ever build house they went to? I don't object to paying good money for a good product, but $2500 for a product that "could" have been found on alibaba.com and had a huge margin banged on top!

Check this product from Monacor:
MONACOR INTERNATIONALroduct detail page

I 1st saw this about 10yrs ago in a straight from China catalogue, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, but to me it's just a box for Monacor to shift, not something they've invested love, blood, sweat and tears into. For me the "design process" should not be ordering samples from the far east and working out which to stick your name on...


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

The Baron Groog said:


> Partly out of snobbery, but mainly because I'm not buying a product off a car audio manufacturer, I'm buying a very expensive amp from what is essentially a marketing company.
> 
> As said before G-Z do have some great products, but how much is designed and engineered by them and how much by what ever build house they went to? I don't object to paying good money for a good product, but $2500 for a product that "could" have been found on alibaba.com and had a huge margin banged on top!
> 
> ...


I guess I should begin to check ebay.com.hk  

Kelvin


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

^lol


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## NRA4ever (Jul 19, 2010)

My US Amp is a older model built in the USA.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

NRA4ever said:


> My US Amp is a older model built in the USA.


Yup I know the older one were built in US (I still own 2 x TU-4360) but that doesn't mean it was a Zed design. 
If that was US Acoustics, then yes, US Amp is not (still could be wrong). 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...cal-advanced/48776-listing-amps-zed-made.html

Kelvin


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## English audiophile (Sep 25, 2010)

What about these...

Mosconi - AS65.2 

or

Audio Wave - Thailand Motor Expo 2010, Part 1
Grant is making some fantastic amps right now that are getting very good reviews here in the UK


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## jbreddawg (Dec 28, 2009)

Older US Amps were great amps but were never a Zed design . 

I have one of these 









but as nice as it is "and it is ! " I would prefer a nice US made McIntosh instead .


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

jbreddawg said:


> Older US Amps were great amps but were never a Zed design .
> 
> I have one of these
> 
> ...


Now that I think of it, it's heatsink looks quite similar to the Prestigio from Sinfoni: 









Kelvin


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think the elephant in the room is the Rockford amp listed at what appears to be 3rd place, above the Brax model? 

I had no idea Brax and Sinfoni had lifetime warranties. This is for the original owner, I assume?


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## Mike_Dee (Mar 26, 2011)

If I had the money, I'd be running an Audison Thesis HV Venti.


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## regxjin (Apr 9, 2011)

The thing about USA amps.. is that a lot of these dudes shifted OEM to china.
Hence quality is a notch below a lot of the Euro Brands. It sucks because USA has some of the best amps ever made in the world. 

I hate the fact that all these great car audio brands shifted to China for manufacturing. It really sucks balls.

No matter how great the build quality of these amps.. they are automatically downgraded because of their, "made in china" label.

And it also takes away jobs from Americans. *sigh*


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

regxjin said:


> The thing about USA amps.. is that a lot of these dudes shifted OEM to china.
> Hence quality is a notch below a lot of the Euro Brands. It sucks because USA has some of the best amps ever made in the world.
> 
> I hate the fact that all these great car audio brands shifted to China for manufacturing. It really sucks balls.
> ...


There's nothing inherently wrong with Asian amps, they're only cheaper because labour rates are lower and manufacturing costs go down. Build the same amp to the same spec in USA and China and the Chinese one will cost less and be of the same, if not better, build quality- look at American cars for Made in America "quality" and look at everything else in your house for made in Asia quality...

The other major reasons for "cheaper" amps are SMT and consumer demand-blame the internet, not the Asians.

I guess you're an American living in Asia-so who is taking whose jobs now?*

*Unless you were being sarcastic-which doesn't come over well in text


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've brought this issue up elsewhere, but it's true that for some reason, American made amps automatically are assumed to be superior. But no one cares about American cars, tvs, cell phones, etc. 

China right now is basically where South Korea was in the late 80's and 90's. They are considered cheap with inferior build quality. In 5 to 10 years, China will have its own "Samsung" or "LG" and this negative perception of China will disappear even though the same Chinese hands will be used in manufacturing.


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## Mike_Dee (Mar 26, 2011)

rain27 said:


> I've brought this issue up elsewhere, but it's true that for some reason, American made amps automatically are assumed to be superior. But no one cares about American cars, tvs, cell phones, etc.
> 
> China right now is basically where South Korea was in the late 80's and 90's. They are considered cheap with inferior build quality. In 5 to 10 years, China will have its own "Samsung" or "LG" and this negative perception of China will disappear even though the same Chinese hands will be used in manufacturing.



Some high end American companies have already outsourced their lower end of product offerings to China. Krell the hi end US electronics company outsources their low end integrated amp S300i to China, to rave reviews:

6moons audio reviews: Krell S-300i

Hi End speaker manufacturers like B&W, and KEF outsource to China


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## regxjin (Apr 9, 2011)

Let me guys ask you a question..

If you saw the SAME "US AMP" product.

1 was made in China.

& 

1 was made in USA.

And assuming they are the same price...
Which one would you buy..


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## regxjin (Apr 9, 2011)

look at car audio companies like...

JBL ..

They used to make super quality car audio products.
But after they shifted their source to China... literally their status as an elite car audio company went down the drain.

I'm not saying that China itself is bad.
But I'm saying that outsourcing to China as a major quality car audio brand..
you're going to take a hit to branding.

Someone stated, 
B&W, and KEF outsource to China.

Hence why a lot of hi-end consumers shifted to other hi-end products.
While other lower-end consumers shifted to B&W & KEF.

If you're outsourcing for cheaper manufacturing and cheaper labor...
you're doing it at a cost of brand image.

Companies like Dynaudio, Scanspeak, Morel, and a lot more Euro brands... sustain brand image is b/c
they don't outsource.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

regxjin said:


> Let me guys ask you a question..
> 
> If you saw the SAME "US AMP" product.
> 
> ...


TBH I couldn't give two hoots who made it, but I'm not American. If it was between Britain and China I'd buy British-that's why I have Genesis amps over comparible non-UK product.


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## regxjin (Apr 9, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> TBH I couldn't give two hoots who made it, but I'm not American. If it was between Britain and China I'd buy British-that's why I have Genesis amps over comparible non-UK product.



I'd buy either British, US, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Japan.
But not China.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

regxjin said:


> look at car audio companies like...
> 
> JBL ..
> 
> ...


JBL still make well respected products, again couldn't care less if not American made.

B+W and KEF still enjoy hi-end custom.

Morel are from Israel-not Europe

From China:
Tymphany (Peerless) 
Tang Band
AuraSound

^ funny how I see so many threads with these drivers in them!


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Manufacturer↓ Country↓
A2T France
Acapella Audio Arts Germany
Sherfield Audio UK
Acoustic Development International USA and China
Acoustic Energy UK
Acoustic Technologies Australia
ADAM Audio Germany
ADRaudio Slovenia
Advance Acoustic France
Alesis USA
Altec Lansing USA/China
Amphion Loudspeakers Finland
Apertura France
Arnscott Electronics Canada
Arvus Loudspeakers New Zealand
Ascend Acoustics USA
Ascendo GmbH Germany
Ascension Australia
ASW-Loudspeaker Germany
ATC UK
Aperion Audio[1] USA
Atlantis Acoustique France
Atlas Sound, LP USA
Artcoustic Loudspeakers Denmark
Atohm France
AUDAX France
AUDES Estonia
AUDIAZ Germany
Audio Artistry USA
Audio Physic Germany
Audison Italy
Audiotop Italy
AudioPipe USA
AudioPro Sweden
Audiovector Denmark
Audiovox USA
Audivation Norway
AuraSound China
Aurelia Loudspeakers Finland
Aurum Cantus China
AV123 USA
Avalon Acoustics USA
AVI Sound International Canada
AVI/Speaker Techniques UK
Axiom Audio Canada
B&C Speakers Italy
Bang & Olufsen Denmark
Barefoot Sound USA
BC Acoustique France
Beauhorn UK
Behringer Germany/China
Blacka Acoustics UK
Blaupunkt Germany
BMB Korea
BMS Germany
Bolzano Villetri Italy
Bose USA
Boston Acoustics USA
Bowers & Wilkins UK
Bravox Brazil
Bruno Henry Acoustique France
Burmester Germany
Cabasse France
Canton Elektronik Germany
Celestion UK/China
Cerwin-Vega China/Malaysia
Chario Italy
Chorus Finland
Coda Audio Germany
Community Professional Loudspeakers USA
Creative Singapore
Cyramyx England
d&b Audiotechnik Germany
DALI Denmark
Danley Sound Labs USA
D.A.S. Audio Spain
Davis Acoustics France
Dayton Loudspeaker USA
dB Technologies Italy
DLS[2] Sweden
Definitive Audio USA
Denon Japan
Designe[3] UK
Diapason Italy
Divatech France
Duevel Germany
Duntech Australia
Dynacord Germany
Dynaudio Denmark
Dynavoice Sweden
EAW USA
Edifier Canada/China
Egglestonworks USA
Elac Germany
Electro-Voice USA
Electrocompaniet Norway
Elipson France
Eltax Denmark - EM Acoustics UK
Emerald Physics USA
Eminence USA
Emotiva Audio USA
Empire[disambiguation needed] Italy
Energy Speaker Systems Canada
er acoustics France
Event USA
Everest France
Farassoo[Acron]] Iran
Fane Acoustics[4] UK
FeONIC[5] UK
FBT Italy
Focal-JMLab France
Forsman[[Forsman]] Norway
Foremost Audio Malaysia
Forvoice Finland
Fostex Japan
Funktion One UK
Gallo Acoustics USA
Gamut Denmark
Genelec Finland
Genesis USA
German Physiks[6] Germany
Gershman Acoustics Canada
Giussani Research[7] Italy
Gradient Finland
Göbel Audio Germany
Harbeth UK
Hartke Systems USA
Harman Kardon USA
Harrin Kaiutin Finland
Hear More Technology[8] UK
Hemp Acoustics Canada
Hertz Italy
Highland France
Hiquphon Denmark
Huff USA
HUMAN Speakers USA
HSU Research USA
image New Zealand
Infinity USA
isophon Germany
Jamo Denmark
JBL USA
Jean-Marie Reynaud France
Jensen Italy
JL Audio USA
JLA France
JVC Japan
Kelinac France
Kea Audio New Zealand
KEF UK/China
Kenwood Japan
Kharma International Netherlands
Kirsch Audio Germany
KLH USA
Klipsch USA
Krix Australia
Koda China
Krell USA
KRK USA
KS Digital Germany
Kustom USA
L-Acoustics France
Lansche Audio Germany
Legacy Audio USA
Legend Acoustics Australia
Leon Speakers USA
Linn UK
Lipinski Sound USA
Lithos Acoustics India
Logitech USA
Lautsprecher Produktions GmbH Germany
Lowther UK
Mackie USA
Magnat Germany
Magnepan USA
Manger Audio UK
Marten Sweden
Martin Audio UK
Martin Logan USA
Master Audio Spain
MBL Germany
McCauley Sound USA
McIntosh Laboratory USA
Meyer Sound USA
Microlab Electronics China
Mirage (Klipsch subsidiary) USA
Minneapolis Speaker Co USA
Midgard Audio Norway
Mitek/MTX USA
Mission UK
Monitor Audio UK/China
MonitorUnlimited Loudspeakers Sweden
Morel Israel
Mordaunt-Short UK
Mosquito France
Mulidine France
Naim UK
NCA Laboratories USA
Newform Research USA
NEXO France
NHT Loudspeakers USA
Norge Audiophile systems[1] India
nOrh Thailand
Nubert Germany
OE-One Switzerland
OHM United Kingdom
Ohm Acoustics USA
Onkyo Japan
ONIX audio England
Opus UK
OR-Loudspeakers Finland
ORCA France
Orpheus Australia
Oxford USA
Panasonic Japan
Paradigm Canada
PAS USA
Peak Bay Unknown
Peavey Electronics USA
Penaudio Finland
Phase Technology USA
ΦPHI Hi-Fi Innovation South Africa
Piega SA Switzerland
Pierre-Etienne Léon France
Philips Netherlands
Pinnacle Speakers United States
Pioneer Japan
PK Sound Canada
PMC speakers UK
Podium Sound UK
Polk Audio USA
Pro-Linear Electronics Canada/China
Proac UK
Proel Italy
Proson Sweden
PSB Canada
Pyramid Audio USA
Q Acoustics UK
QLN Sweden
QSC USA
Quad Electroacoustics UK
Quadral Germany
Radio Shack USA
RCF Italy
Rega UK
REL Acoustics USA/UK
Renkus-Heinz USA
Revel USA
Richter Australia
Rogers Intl UK brand (China Mfg)
rogue wave audio Canada
SEAS Norway
Selenium Brazil
Servodrive USA
SES Audio Design Finland
Shermann Audio UK
SICA Italy
Snell USA
Song Audio Canada
Sonicweld USA
Sonique Audio Australia
Sonodyne India
Sonus Faber Italy
Sony Japan
Sound Precision Sweden
Sound Projects Netherlands
Spendor UK
StudioLAB Canada
surrounTec Germany
S&P-Audio Spain
System Audio (SA) Denmark
Tang Band ROC (Taiwan)
Tangent Audio Denmark
Tannoy UK
Technomad USA
Teledyne USA
Teresonic USA
Theophany New Zealand
THIEL USA
Tidal Germany
TOA Corp. Japan
Tonsil Poland
Tound Italy
Totem Acoustic Canada
Triad USA
Triangle Electroacoustique France
TruAudio USA
Turbosound UK
Tymphany (Peerless) China
Usher Taiwan
VAF Research Australia
Vandersteen USA
Verity Audio Canada
Vienna Acoustics Austria
Vivid Audio South Africa
VEF Radiotehnika RRR Latvia
VMPS USA
Void Audio UK
Von Schweikert Audio USA
Wharfedale UK/China
Whatmough  Australia
Weckstrom Speakers Finland
Wilson Audio USA
Wilson Benesch UK
XAVIAN Czech Republic
Peerless (Tymphany) China
XTZ Sweden
Yamaha Japan
Yorkville Sound Canada
ZR Speaker Lab[9] Slovenia
Zu Audio USA

Sorry to have taken this off topic, but just proving not all out of China is bad and found this list of speaker manufacturers, which I thought may be of interest.


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## gfbl (Nov 26, 2008)

what about sutherland?


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