# 98 Dodge Neon Build, First Timer SQ



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, time to start my first audio build. The car is a 98 Dodge Neon R/T. This will be a sound quality only build. No 150 db spl monster subs. It will be done in 2 stages, the first which will happen over the next month and a half. Total investment so far is around $3600+.

Equipment for stage 1:

Headunit - Denon DCT R1
Processor - JBL MS-8
Sub - Kicker CVX 10", prefab Kicker ported box
Mids - Hybrid Audio Imagine 6.5"
Highs - Hybrid Audio Imagine 25mm
Sub Amp - Kicker ZX1x500
Mid/High Amp - Kicker ZX2x200 (this will change to a JL HD600.4 soon after install)
Power Wires - Streetwires 0 and 4 gauge
Speaker Wires - Kicker X-Series 12 gauge
Sound Deadening - Second Skin Damplifier Pro, Luxury Liner Pro, Overkill

This first stage is mostly focused in front of the front seats. The mids will go into the kicks, in vented fiberglass enclosures, aimed in between the front seats. The tweeters will be in the a-pillars, aimed at the center of the windshield. I have 70 square feet of Damplifier Pro to go in front of the front seats. Three layers on the front floor, three on the firewall, three on the lower a-pillers. Over that, a continuous layer of Luxury Liner Pro. The dash is completely out of the car, as well as the HVAC, and pretty much everything else. I'm currently finishing pulling the stock junk deadening, as it wasnt stuck on too well in some places. I'm using Hybrid Audio for all mids and highs. 

On to pics.

Denon Head Unit
0.008% Distortion
110 db Signal to noise ratio









Head Unit and Damp Pro









Damp Pro and back of Head Unit









36 Square Feet of Luxury Liner Pro









9 Square Feet of Overkill









JBL MS-8
Low, High and Bandpass crossovers, anywhere between 20-20000hz
Automatic room correction
Time Alignment
8 Channels
31 Band Equalizer


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## slowsedan01 (May 4, 2008)

Nice equipment, should be a good build.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks, hang in there over the next day as i get the rest of the pics up. My superlow post count is slowing down my ability to post pics.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Hybrid Audio Imagine 6.5" Mid
http://www.hybrid-audio.com/Imagine_Master_Manual_Final.pdf 


















Hybrid Audio Imagine Tweeter
Same link as above









Now on to the car



























Well, I got the rest of the stock deadening out today, and a lousy coat of primer, mostly so it doesnt rust. It was dark and 48 degrees out, so not ideal weather to paint in. Tomorrow when its light out, I'll wet sand the primer, and lay another good coat down, around 10am, then around 3pm I'll lay a coat of white down, and that'll be it. Its mostly to make sure theres no bare metal under the deadening.

I should add, I couldn't have done all of this without my wife. She bought me the head unit, helped remove the deadening with the heat gun and putty knife, helped sand the leftover bits down and wiped everything down with acetone before I sprayed the primer.

Lousy night pics


















Vent for the right mid


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Last junk post before real work gets done. Got the paint down today, gonna smooth it tomorrow, and start making templates for the sound deadening, and get to cutting it. Wednesday the first layer or 2 will go in.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

holy crap...your FIRST build?!?! what do you do for a living?! 

cant wait to see the rest!


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

not going to lie, when I saw the title with first time sq and neon all in the same title I had my doubts but I can already tell you mean business and have some badass equipment so you sir have def proved me wrong!!!!!

I cant wait to see progress


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm currently a trash truck driver with a wife that loves me. Oh, also I'm a perfectionist, which means I usually never get things done. I want to make this my first fully finished project.

Working on getting a higher paying job, so I can start stage 2. Legatia SE 3way, HD amps, rest of the car sound deadened, and FI IB subs.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm currently a trash truck driver with a wife that loves me. Oh, also I'm a perfectionist, which means *I usually never get things done. * I want to make this my first fully finished project.
> 
> Working on getting a higher paying job, so I can start stage 2. *Legatia SE 3way, HD amps*, rest of the car sound deadened, and FI IB subs.


You'll fit in perfect here and especially with car audio overall. There is always something to alter/swap/or plan for

yum and yum


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## jorgegarcia (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm subscribed. Love this over the top installs. Take lots of pictures, we love audio install porn around here.


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## leepersc (Sep 23, 2009)

Also subscribed!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

just becareful about the perfectionist thing, i started out like that and it led me to trying to remold and build the entire interior of my truck, it ended up being sold a few months later in half built condition...

but i wish you the best of luck!

b


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## Mixerdriver (Nov 8, 2010)

subscribed


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> just becareful about the perfectionist thing, i started out like that and it led me to trying to remold and build the entire interior of my truck, it ended up being sold a few months later in half built condition...
> 
> but i wish you the best of luck!
> 
> b


Thanks for the advice. I'm more just trying to stay away from the local shops. The one good shop in the area, got raided by PD and shut down, for taking money and not finishing projects. Sadly, they were the only ones that did quality work around here. I have until the end of this year to get stage 1 where I want it, and then I go on a 6 month break, as I'll be going through the police academy. After I get out, I'll be able to start stage 2.

I'm gonna use this first part of the install as a learning process. I've never worked with fiberglass, so I bought the cheap bondo crap before reading up more, but if I can do half decent with that, I'll use US composites next time. If not, I can practice with the cheap stuff some more until I'm ready for the good stuff.

I actually have someone else doing the interior remold work for me. He works with carbon fiber, so I'll be slowly sending him pieces I have laying around not being used, and he'll be making a mold, and redoing the whole thing in pure CF. I've had 3 neons, and 2 were gutted race cars, so I can do this without leaving this car torn apart, and just swap parts as I go.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

sweet, are you in cali or canada? if cali, where are you that you only have ONE good shop around you?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Visalia, CA.

I should say, we dont have any good SQ shops around here. Seems every shop here specializes in SPL builds. We had a HAT, Hertz, and Morel dealer here, based in a custom car shop, but that shop got raided and shut down, a week after a meca show. 

They've had a few meca shows at a shop in fresno, but when I was there, it was 90% SPL cars, and the SQ cars were from out of town.

The #1 shop in visalia still tells people that speakers can distort from not running enough power, and they dont mean from clipping either. They also kind of change their prices based on who you are, you pay above MSRP if your not one of their favorite, which is ok for me, because all they sell there is kicker and RF.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

oh roadshop eh? we were there last october for the finals.

actually, audio innovations in fresno, Ray and Ryan are REALLY REALLY friggin good at building SQ cars...its just their clientel prefer SPL...you should really hit them up...i would easily trust them to do my own car.


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## ALL4SQ (Mar 28, 2009)

Nice system design and gear choices. Looking forward to following this build.


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## ReloadedSS (Aug 26, 2008)

Lots of good work so far, I wasn't sure what to expect from the title, but I am definitely following along.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

Nice I'm a future officer as well woot woot.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> oh roadshop eh? we were there last october for the finals.
> 
> actually, audio innovations in fresno, Ray and Ryan are REALLY REALLY friggin good at building SQ cars...its just their clientel prefer SPL...you should really hit them up...i would easily trust them to do my own car.


Yep, I was there spectating last oct. Wanted them to do some work for me, but then they were shut down. 

Audio Innovations was where I was talking about in fresno, I actually considered taking it there, but at the time, my wife had been laid off from her CO job, and then I decided I'd like to learn for myself, plus save myself some money. Your probably right, all the cars I saw there were SPL cars, although its probably the area more then the actual shop. I think once the installs done though, I'll head up there if I need help tuning anything (which is likely, being a noob)


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## slowsedan01 (May 4, 2008)

Looking forward to seeing more. This thread should deliver. Nice job for a first timer. I am not a first timer but I cant swing a list of equipment like that. Keep your wife happy!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks. Ya, I love my wife. Helped me remove sound deadening in two cars now, with a heat gun and scraper. Helped my acetone this one, and put in sound deadening today. I just need to get her civic's deadening done as a thank you to her. Its sad that stock for stock, a 2010 civic ex is at loud on the freeway as a 1998 dodge neon.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, sicker then crap, but I got a little done. Didn't rain, but was cold, so it was hard to mold the deadening to form. The aluminum on this stuff isn't nearly as flimsy as on dynamat. When I would heat dynamat with a heat gun to get it flexible, the dynamat would fold under its own weight. This second skin damplifier pro doesnt.

Got part of the floor done. I'm trying to avoid putting any damp pro over the caulking for the seams, as thats where the stock stuff wasnt sticking to. I'll go over it with luxury liner pro. More cutting for me, but less worries later.


















There will be three layers everywhere forward of the seats. It may be past the point of diminishing returns for road noise, but I'm bolting speakers that take a lot of power to the floors. I don't want any vibrating panels, and one layer just wont cut it for that.

So, neon owners know that the bezel around the headlight switch rattles. Its also not completely removable, so I didn't feel to bad about doing this...



























No more annoying rattles over bumpy roads, or during the 50 mph roads that seemed to make it resonate so bad.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

crazy install so far man, just take your time and try not to cut corners. it will bite you in the ass in the long run. i didnt wire my car that way i should have when i first installed my stereo, and i just ripped it all out and redid it haha.

so do it right the first time man!!


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

subscribed. love the title... was expecting an 16 year old and his first install. hope it all works out for ya.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks. Ya, I love my wife. Helped me remove sound deadening in two cars now, with a heat gun and scraper. Helped my acetone this one, and put in sound deadening today. I just need to get her civic's deadening done as a thank you to her. Its sad that stock for stock, a 2010 civic ex is at loud on the freeway as a 1998 dodge neon.


Not really, The Neon was certainly a more solid car than a similar year Civic...I may be biased.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Got a little more done today. Between raining, babysitting the nieces, and class, its taking much longer then I'd like. Plus, some areas I'm having to do more of a patchwork and overlay the deadening, due to small areas and weird shapes. Oh well, 8 sheets down, 34 to go.


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## jace314 (Jan 30, 2010)

Wow...
Im still stuck on the fact that your painting the interior, that will be covered no less! You have got my attention. Keep it up!!!


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Damn fine work so far. Maybe you can get a job installing professionally?


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

while you got everything out you may want to think about what locations you are going to be installing speakers and such. if you are to be installing them in the floor pan ect, now would be a good time to figure out what your speaker install design and goals are.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I wish I could photoshop up some pics. Basically, the mids will be going in the kicks. I aimed them using towel wraps before tear down, and built a jig which will be pictured later to aim once its time to fiberglass them in. I did all my playing around with aiming with no eq, time alignment, or anything else, to get the stage and tonality as good as possible (to my ears, and my dads, and wifes) so that eq will be minimal. I'd rather get it right mechanically, and tweak electronically, than fix bad locations electronically. Tweeters are going in the a-pillars, and will be aimed almost across each other. Couldnt get good staging with them more on axis.

I had to paint before deadening. Taking out the old stock crap left lots of bare metal, and I wanted no future rust in a car I'll be keeping a long time. The stock stuff sucked, and I figured good deadener on bare metal was better then good deadener on crap deadener.


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## jorgegarcia (Mar 8, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I had to paint before deadening. Taking out the old stock crap left lots of bare metal, and I wanted no future rust in a car I'll be keeping a long time. The stock stuff sucked, and *I figured good deadener on bare metal was better then good deadener on crap deadener*.


Solid reasoning. How old are you? I'm 35 and I've never made that much sense in my life.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

jorgegarcia said:


> Solid reasoning. How old are you? I'm 35 and I've never made that much sense in my life.


27, 28 in dec. Come from an engineering background though. Dads an EE. I've been working on cars and motocross bikes (which is where I learned about adhesives, applying graphics every few months as my sponsors changed) since 13, just never the audio side. This is gonna sound sad, but the best sq system I had ever heard up until late last year was my friends truck. Kicker L7, and some $200+- comps, in non deadened doors.

Then last year, I went to a meca show, and heard a car with a HAT L641 set up, with zapco amps. Then I got my Denon home system. And now I'm addicted.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Not much done, havent had time to work on it much.....



















Any ideas on how to deaden this area? Liquid would probably be best, but I need to be able to glue the LL Pro down to this area. I know its small areas, and with the multiple angles, it shouldn't resonate too much, but it does. Especially with the stock balance on the engine, and stiffer motor mounts (to keep from damaging anything else through wheel hop). I could do small pieces, on each of those little squares. Or, a set a strips, each one wide enough for on square and valley, and long enough to cover all the squares in the row. Then do a second layer of strips vertically. I'm not even sure if this will make a difference, but in my mind, the less cuts seems it would dampen better.

My wife just suggested something I had thought about before as well. Putting little thing strips to build up the valleys, and then one large piece across the whole thing. Again, it just seems one continuous sheet would work better then a patchwork of sheets. 

Comments?


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

I have always been a fan of thin strips in areas like that


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll have some more pics soon, gonna work on it this weekend. My resin comes in next tues, and my rca ends and wire come in today for my custom rca cables. In the meantime..............................









Check out here for more info

Turn Me Up! | Bringing Dynamics Back To Music


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## Arthurk (Feb 10, 2009)

Holy cow, I'm tuned in! Way to take the WHOLE dash off. Nice equipment.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, updates slower then expected, fedex sent some of my stuff to the wrong house, and couldn't tell me where it was since their system was down. Plus watching my nieces, and class. Car is almost ready to fiberglass. Need to lay down some overkill to the kick panel area to help decouple the enclosure. Here is the kick panel area deadned. 

I didnt put as much here, since the metal is very small surface area wise, and its not only the mounting point for the dash, which is very solid, but also for the doors.








Yes, this hole above the speaker's vent hole will be covered, just didnt get to it yet. Still have 15 sheets of deadener.









Remeber the weird spot on the firewall a few posts up? Well this is how I dealt with that. 










And last but not least, the beginning of the amp rack. From left to right, Kicker ZX200.2, ZX450.2, ZX1000.1, and JBL MS-8. The rack will be replacing the rear bottom seat. It will be 2 pieces of 3/4" thick oak, and will have all RCA's and speaker wires ran inside the wood. I will be routering mirror images of the wire routing on the inside of each piece, then bolting them together. Power will be run in the front. on top, and tied down. Of course it will be carpted, bolted down, and then a frame will be made with grill cloth covering the whole thing from view. It will obviously not be a seat, but there should be nothing visible to show that its stereo equipment. Especially with the seats moved 2-3" farther back then stock, and the back windows tinted in 5%.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Just like everyone said, HOLY **** !!! WATCH OUT lol
Not to sound crazy of anything, but please don't tell us that you Neon is worth more than your sound system  

Anyhow, looks really good, keep us all updated on your progress and good work.


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## cnut334 (Oct 17, 2009)

Looking great so far! Your build will be the standard for first builds and all builds to be judged by in regards to the detail you are going through. Nice work indeed.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Nope, stereo is definately worth more then the car, even the "high" bluebook.

Thanks cnut, I just dont want to do anything twice. At least until I upgrade.


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## trinity_rush2001 (Sep 1, 2009)

nice build. i have a neon as well going to be doing a build in it in the future


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

trinity_rush2001 said:


> nice build. i have a neon as well going to be doing a build in it in the future


You might as well not bother now.... He's just putting every other build to shame!


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## 9mmmac (Dec 14, 2010)

Mad mad mad maaaaaaaaaaaad props for taking out the um, entire dash. Wow. I've always suspected I'm hearing a lot of noise due to not getting up there to block engine noise, widshield cowl turbulence, air intake noise, windshield wiper noise, exhaust drone, even the windshield wiper fluid motor. I predict excellent results!


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Nope, stereo is definately worth more then the car, even the "high" bluebook.
> 
> Thanks cnut, I just dont want to do anything twice. At least until I upgrade.



Once is all done, you be very impressed and happy with your build... 

Now lets just hope that your car wont fall a part when you are done with your big boom  but no worries, I got Audi and im sick of repairs


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Quick update, used my new Jasper Jig for the first time tonight. Screwed up a little, so no pics. First time using a router, ran the bit too deep. Burned the crap out of the wood. I also noticed that with the upspiral bit, theres no where for the wood to go, since the hole on the jig is just big enough for the bit to go through. So tomorrow I enlarge the hole, and learn to set the depth adjustment.




9mmmac said:


> Mad mad mad maaaaaaaaaaaad props for taking out the um, entire dash. Wow. I've always suspected I'm hearing a lot of noise due to not getting up there to block engine noise, widshield cowl turbulence, air intake noise, windshield wiper noise, exhaust drone, even the windshield wiper fluid motor. I predict excellent results!


lol, is it sad that this is actually the 5th time I've had the entire dash out of a neon? And 4th time with the entire HVAC out. Twice building a race car (completely gutted, half the dash frame out, 2020 pounds with me in it), and twice swapping a previous neon from auto to a stick. I'm pretty comfy with removing the dash by now, its the upcomming (friday) fiberglass work that scares the crap out of me. 


Quickaudi, the cars actually surprisingly stout. When the sub first went in (but not really in, just sitting in the trunk hooked up, not bolted down), I expected rattle city. It was with a Kicker ZX500.1 at that point, and was getting maybe 500 RMS. Just a few small rattles, and none that were audible outside of the car. I love the look on peoples faces when I open the door, and all of a sudden theres music.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Almost finished speaker rings. Need to glue the 2 halves together, and then coat them in resin. Need to use a carbide bit to match the T-nuts the inside contour. Still needs some smoothing in some areas too.

First failed attempt. First time using a jasper jig and plunge router. I said something was wrong, but my dad said stop being a sissy and go.










Turns out not only was the bit too far down, so it was rubbing the wood away on the upper 1/8" of wood, but since it was so far down, the flues on the bit didnt clear the lexan base on the jasper jig, so it just kept packing the sawdust back into the hole.

Heres the final attempt.


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## SAM77H (May 19, 2010)

this is very inspiring work ! keep it up !


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## AdamTaylor (Sep 7, 2008)

how did i miss this so far? awesome job so far.... cant wait to see more so GET TO IT!!!!!!


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## Mythstery (Jun 8, 2010)

this makes me almost want to go buy a $ 500 neon and just go to town lol


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

lol, there not actually that bad of cars. They've mostly just suffered through bad owners. Almost every problem mine have had, were owner related, or just normal maintenance. I'll have more tomorrow. I gotta redo holes in the bottom ring, the hand drill didnt go in to 2 of the holes straight, so the bolts dont engage in the t-nuts. Time to use a drill press. Plus I hope to fiberglass tomorrow.


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## digdug18 (Feb 14, 2010)

Yeah, they are pretty bad cars, they suffer from issues with the head gaskets. The water jacket isn't really large enough. The DOHC engines have less of a problem with this though. you should still plan or doing a headgasket at regular intervals, 85k miles or so. 
And by now I'm betting you car needs new suspension bushings at all 4 corners, new sway bar bushings, etc. Stay stock for the bushings unless you like the squeak of the energy bushings. But then again that's like any car over 10 years old at this point.

One positive note for the neon's is that you'll never run out of used parts, the junk yards are full of them, not too many people drive them anymore either, at least around me. 

So far your build looks good though. 

Andrew


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## ALL4SQ (Mar 28, 2009)

Those speaker baffles look Great. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the build.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

digdug18 said:


> Yeah, they are pretty bad cars, they suffer from issues with the head gaskets. The water jacket isn't really large enough. The DOHC engines have less of a problem with this though. you should still plan or doing a headgasket at regular intervals, 85k miles or so.
> And by now I'm betting you car needs new suspension bushings at all 4 corners, new sway bar bushings, etc. Stay stock for the bushings unless you like the squeak of the energy bushings. But then again that's like any car over 10 years old at this point.
> 
> One positive note for the neon's is that you'll never run out of used parts, the junk yards are full of them, not too many people drive them anymore either, at least around me.
> ...


98- had a revised MLS head gasket that solved the majority of the common leak problems. My 97 had a leak, dealer replaced with an MLS gasket for $100.

It says in normal maintenance to change the tensioner/timing belt/etc. every 100k...I see sooo many of these with 150k+ rolling the stock belt. They are very good cars, IF YOU PERFORM NORMAL MAINTENANCE.
Since nobody did (treated them as throw-away cars) every one I buy gets new tensioner/timing belt/water pump and maybe oil pump. Costs about $400 in parts from my local dealer.

I've had three, and I can tell you there are certainly 100x better than the Mazda built Escort/Tracer and feel far more substantial and sturdy than any Civic I've ever driven.

All in all, they are cheap, easy to work on, hold up well if you take care of them.

I'll buy another.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

digdug18 said:


> Yeah, they are pretty bad cars, they suffer from issues with the head gaskets. The water jacket isn't really large enough. The DOHC engines have less of a problem with this though. you should still plan or doing a headgasket at regular intervals, 85k miles or so.
> And by now I'm betting you car needs new suspension bushings at all 4 corners, new sway bar bushings, etc. Stay stock for the bushings unless you like the squeak of the energy bushings. But then again that's like any car over 10 years old at this point.
> 
> One positive note for the neon's is that you'll never run out of used parts, the junk yards are full of them, not too many people drive them anymore either, at least around me.
> ...



The headgasket issue was fixed in 98, as JayinMi stated. I've also had 2 pre 98 neons with stock fiber head gaskets, and no issues, up to 180,000 miles. And the water jacket is plenty large. In fact, it takes it being over 110 ambient degrees for the water temp to rise above 215 degrees (which is the fan kick-on) with all the accesories and a/c on full blast. Although not proud of this (8 years ago), I was able to go through hills around san diego on a 115 degree day, on the 15 freeway, at 115mph, with the ac on and 3 other people in the car. It never once overheated, and that was in a SOHC AUTO, which is more likely to overheat. The only way these cars will really over heat is in a straight up racing situation, or if there is something wrong with the cooling system.

I actually just replaced the headgasket at 168,000 miles (although not because I needed to). I lost a timing belt. The only reason I didnt change it when I bought it was because the previous owner had a reciept from the dealer showing it was changed less then 20,000 miles before I bought it. However, they botched the job, not replacing the idlers, and the idler failed. Bent the valves, so I redid everything on the top end. Never trust the dealers to do it right. 

I've actually replaced the bushings with prothane bushings, and they do not squeek at all, even when cold. Any car 10 years old needs that anyways. As well as motor mounts and other general maintenance items. I will actually be pulling these prothanes at some point and going to teflon lined and sealed sphericals, for the control arm/lat link and sway bushings.

I know of many, many high mileage neons with no issues, other than maintenance. Many with over 250,000 miles and no issues, with only regular maintenance being done, including timing belts. I actually know of one neon with 1,112,000 mile neon, with the only replaced engine parts outside of normal maintenance being the head, at 600,000 or so miles.

I agree with JayinMI, most people treated them as throw-aways. When you sell a car for $10,000, those are the people that are attracted to them, people who could care less how long they last. I'm actually in contact with the Chrysler engineer that desgined the engine for the car, and he professionally road raced neons for 15 years. I'm aware of the actual real flaws in the engine through him, and their reasons for being (bean counters at chrysler), although with the exception of the head gasket, there werent any flaws a normal average daily user would have been affected by.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Got the area on the passenger kick taped up, going to do the glassing tomorrow. Wife wasnt able to help me today, shes not feeling well, and I want a second person there when I glass, just to help streamline things for this noob.

Going to redo the bottom speaker ring as well tomorrow, and use a drill press this time for straight holes. Then glue them together so they'll be ready to glass in once the back halves of the fiberglass is fully cured. Tues or weds, I want to start routering the routing for the RCA's on the amp rack, and maybe (big maybe) next week my dad will be able to help with making the RCA's.


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## digdug18 (Feb 14, 2010)

Funny though that the acr cars still command a premium.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Yeah, the ACR's are like the Integra Type R's, a little rare, and great for racing stock classes.

I got some fiberglass down today, resin made a HHUUGGEE difference over my last attempt. My last attempt I gave up on, after having to mix 4 batches of crap bondo resin to get 3 layers down. Even following directions to a T, I had about 2-3 minutes before it started to set, and when it started to set, it set fast. The US Composites stuff gave me 20 full minutes to work, and set very slowly. Did one layer of cloth, one of mat. I'll probably do one more of each, then get the rings in there. So finished product should be;

1 layer cloth, 1 layer mat, 1 layer cloth, 1 layer mat, 3/16" steel bb/resin/concrete powder mix.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Unfortunately, when my 2nd ACR got stolen, they insurance company just paid out on it like any other Neon...I had the car 2 weeks, and lost $250...

Nice work on the kicks.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Ya, insurance is awesome like that. They like to charge neon owners the "sport compact" fees vs the "compact econbox" fees, but then when something happens, its "just a neon".

Not many acrs around here. But I did have a 96 sohc down to 2020 pounds, with driver. It was a tin can inside that thing, but it was damn quick.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I ran full interior and my system in my first one, so it was probably like 2700 lbs...With just an Iceman intake, cat back and 52mm TB it was a 15.95 car consistently....not super fast but pretty quick for a lightly modded 4 banger.
I can only image saving 700+ lbs on that car...probably would have been a 13-14 second car.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Meh, cooking spray sucks. Doesnt work like I was told it would. Cracked the passenger mold today pulling it out. Funny thing is, is that my previous attempt had no attempt at a mold release, but it came off without cracking, because it was so much more flexible (bondo resin, all fiberglass cloth), and this one was so stiff (us composites b-440, cloth, mat, cloth, mat) that it cracked. Gotta start over now. Lesson learned.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, heres some updated pics. Been having lots of fun (not) learning to work with fiberglass, but I still feel in the end it will pay off more than paying someone to do it. So yes, I know the fiberglass isnt perfect.

First off, some of the diyma croud was my* idea of using concrete mixed with resin to strengthen my enclosures. *(not really my idea, I got the idea to include it in my product from this site, Welcome Page). Anyways, there were things said such as concrete wont cure without water, and that it wont add stiffness, just deadening, etc. Well, here is a couple things I put together to show its a viable solution for those wanting stiffness and mass. Because I want my kick panels DEAD dead.

Practice Enclosure









Thickest part, maybe just over 1/2". Fiberglass mat was just under 1/8" throughout.









Thinnest part









Bottom, showing the bbs that were added for more mass









Half of a 6000 count bb container, was used on this practice enclosure. Yes its pretty dense.









This is the sifted high strength concrete









And this is the concrete bag and sifter used









I didnt take pics, but it was built with us composites resin, but bondo fiberglass mat and the concrete/resin mix was bondo resin. Here is the video. I used my heel for the weight test to get as small of a surface area as possible to increase the chances of failing. Also, with my fat butt plus the 50 pounds dumbbells, my heel weighed about 350 pounds.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

And finally, some updates, however small they are. I'll have more very soon, as I'm back to working on this every chance I get.

Got some spectrum and spectrum sludge, for areas I cant get regular deadening to.









The final enclosure backhalf in the car.









Outside of the car.









Passenger side HVAC duct.









Yes its overkill, but my deadening goal is dead silence while driving with the air on the lower 2 settings. If its worth doing, its worth overdoing. These will also be covered in dense foam to prevent rattles, and surrounded in accoustic foam. Believe it or not, blowing an airgun through these is much quieter now with deadening on them.









And lastly, a modification to the HAT Imagine tweeter. Before I continue, I must say that I in no way blame HAT for the circumstances surrounding the reasons for this modification. 

The Imagine series is their current entry level speaker set, and I doubt they ever "imagined" someone would buy this set and test them in as many places as I have. I've easily installed these things in 7 different places, and probably played with at least 5-6 different angles in each of those places. Thats a lot of wire bending. This is also probably why HAT doesnt use attached lead wires in their higher end tweeters. In addition, I've been using these in test boxes to audition people at work/school etc, to get them introduced to real sound quality. So when the wire leads finally broke from stress, it didnt surprise me. If I had installed these like a normal person would have, it would have never happened.

That said, I see this as an opportunity to get the tweeters a little more hidden, and a little wider, to hopefully improve stage width, something Scott Buwalda mentioned helped with his G35. So here is the unplastic-d tweeter.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

One thing i got to say, You are nuts! lol

Cant wait to see the rest of the car.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks, its coming along slower then I had wanted, but stuff happens. Im wanting the glassing to be done in the next month. But I can only glass on weekends right now, since the cars out in the direct sunlight, and my time off of work during the week is when its 95-105 degrees. So weekend mornings it is.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

props man. but also - when you put the carpet back in the pods are not going to fit.

just want to throw that by you.

so far looks great


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks.

I'll be cutting the carpet for now, and after all the deadening is done, and my final install finished, I'll have new carpet formed over everything. This is still my practice build, so I'm ok with cut carpet for a while. Once I learn how to tune, and finish my current career change, I'll be putting different speakers in, and then I'll finish everything nice.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

subbed. Loving the work, keep it up mang


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks.

Ran into an issue this weekend, I need to extend some wiring on the drivers side, so they clear the kick panel. That will be done this week, so I can start the drivers side form this weekend. I expect to have both backsides ready for aiming in 2 weeks, since I can only glass on the weekends right now. Its 100+ during the day right now and doesnt get below 90 till almost 9pm, and I'm already at work during the coolest part of the day.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Finally got something done I thought was worth sharing. Took a lot of experimenting to get to where I'm at right now. First time ever using fiberglass, so for this build, the current version shown here will work. The glass itself is about 1/8"-3/16" thick in all places. The front will also be reinforced. It will then have concrete/resin/bbs applyed to all sides on the inside. I could only find 2 places to bolt it down for now. The later version, down the road, will bolt in at more points. They were aimed with a laser, to the top of the b-pillars. In testing before the teardown, this gave the best stage, with no processing. Tweeters will be in a-pillars aimed across at each other. I also know there are a couple of ripples, couldnt figure out a way to end with no ripples. Oh well, thats what sandpaper and elbow grease is for.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Sweet build man. I'm excited to see the finished product.

Definitely bring it up to Audio Innovations, (good friends with the guys), when you get it done, would love to hear it.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Will do, I'll pm you when I head up. Probably first week in october.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Will do, I'll pm you when I head up. Probably first week in october.


Sounds good.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Brian_smith06 said:


> not going to lie, when I saw the title with first time sq and neon all in the same title I had my doubts but I can already tell you mean business and have some badass equipment so you sir have def proved me wrong!!!!!
> 
> I cant wait to see progress




Why?

John Myers has won 3-4 world Championships with a Neon..... Its one of the best sounding cars i've ever heard.


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## OldSchoolRF (Aug 29, 2011)

Very nice!!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Updates this weekend. Enclosures are almost done. Rear end of the underside is torn apart for SS Spectrum spraying.


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

mmiller said:


> Why?
> 
> John Myers has won 3-4 world Championships with a Neon..... Its one of the best sounding cars i've ever heard.


Did his Neon have Pioneer PRS comps and if I remember right it had a PRS sub in the dash too?


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

pjc said:


> Did his Neon have Pioneer PRS comps and if I remember right it had a PRS sub in the dash too?


No, and no.

Its has HAT speakers currently, with a Dayton HO 10 in the Dash. Its had a several different speakers configurations Vifa, Scan Speak... Ect. 

He's done well with all the different gear he has used throughout the years.

Its always sounded very good throughout the changes as well.

This is for the most part how the car stands as of right now..... Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - Fozz's finished 2000 Dodge Neon


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

mmiller said:


> No, and no.
> 
> Its has HAT speakers currently, with a Dayton HO 10 in the Dash. Its had a several different speakers configurations Vifa, Scan Speak... Ect.
> 
> ...


That was the car that made me decide to do kicks, even with a stick shift. If he can fit L8's in there, Imagines are nothing. Never heard the car, just gave me a lot of motivation looking at its pics. That one, along with Mike Petersons thunderbird.


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

I remember going to IASCA world finals about 2003 maybe and I remember there was a Neon there. I am almost 100% positive there was at least the older PRS comp up front. I remember it had a Pioneer P9 combo as the deck. I had a bunch of pics of it but they were on the ex wifes computer. And when she left so did the pics. Anyone know of this neon?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Time for a long needed update. Also, the first page has changed since my head unit and processor have changed. I will now be running a Pioneer DEX-P99RS for headunit and processor duties. This will allow me to run .wav files on my Ipod, and bypass the Ipods dacs. Also simplifies the amp rack. The MS-8 will probably go in my wifes car.

DEX-P99RS

















Next up, the fully (almost, needs bodyfiller, smoothing and carpet) finished kick pods. These were made with fiberglass, concrete powder, and steel bbs. With the speaker, they weight 20 pounds EACH. They are dead. Also, they are strong. I can stand on them and they dont even come close to flexing. They also have a large vent cut where the kick panel is, so that it acts like infinite baffle.

















I dont think these kind of videos do much to show how a speaker sounds, but it will show that with 150 watts, the enclosures is still not vibrating. Watch the penny, notice it doesnt move at all, once I get it set up. There are few places it would stay on its own, since theres not much friction on the surface of the enclosure.


Next up is the modified seat brackets. They move the seat 1.75" back when in the farthest back position. I would have loved to go farther, but that would risk being behind the seat belt line, and be extremely dangerous or even deadly if in a roll over wreck.

















Then we get to the firewall. I wasnt sure what to do with all the ridges in the metal, so I sludged them.

















I also sludged the ashtray's cigerette grooves. Since no one will ever be allowed to smoke in my car, i use it to hold the head units remote. However, It can rattle around in there, and rattles bug the crap out of me. So I sludged the grooves to give a solid glue spot for some closed cell foam to cover the entire inside of the tray.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

And lastly, the underside of the trunk and rear seats. Eventually I will be deadening the inside as well with damp pro, but I feel the best approach is to sandwich the metal between two layers of deadening. So since I had to upgrade the rear suspension bushings anyways, I might as well spray some spectrum on there while its apart. Ended up using about a gallon and a quarter.


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Nice work there, and a great attention to detail!

Gav


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

pjc said:


> I remember going to IASCA world finals about 2003 maybe and I remember there was a Neon there. I am almost 100% positive there was at least the older PRS comp up front. I remember it had a Pioneer P9 combo as the deck. I had a bunch of pics of it but they were on the ex wifes computer. And when she left so did the pics. Anyone know of this neon?


Sounds like Marc Turner's car. He was out of Canada, around Toronto if I remember correctly. He was sponsored by Pioneer of Canada and used all of their product. The Neon was Purple with the Pioneer logo in the paint.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

GavGT said:


> Nice work there, and a great attention to detail!
> 
> Gav


Thanks, I keep telling my wife that one day when I have more money than sense, I'll get a clean shell and do everything the right way. Seam weld it, reinforce everything, and then deaden. I put the suspension back on today, and was pressing on area under the rear seat, and its just flimsy. I'm sure other cars are the same, I remember my trucks body being the same, its just sad. Anyways, the spectrum should at least lower the resonant frequency, and the damp pro on the other side should get it low enough not to be noticeable.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Very nice! 

Lots of work! 

D.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks, lots of work still left. Looking forward to your impression on the I6SW, as I have one thats going in my dads truck.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks, lots of work still left. Looking forward to your impression on the I6SW, as I have one thats going in my dads truck.


*Very soon!*

(O:


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Not much done this weekend, waiting on funds and time now that I started coaching soccer.

Wire harness for head unit. I will be slitting the area of techflex around the fuse later, and sealing it, once I figure out why my hotknife stopped working. While I'm posting, I read some rules this weekend from IASCA, and came across a part that stated that the entire system must be able to be powered down by a single switch, which it then goes on to say can not be the ignition switch. Since I may be competing after all, and the head unit will not be able to come out without the dash coming out, should I just change this and make the switched power wire run to a switch, that then runs to a source of constant power?









Wire harness to make testing head units in the future easier.









Hoping to get the enclosures covered this week, and get the HVAC back in by sunday.


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## Eiswritsat (Nov 19, 2008)

great job so far


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

Are you covering every single wire in the head unit harness in its own matching TechFlex color?


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## PottersField (Mar 18, 2011)

You're doing awesome work, sir. The attention to detail is impressive. But for your consideration:



> In the United States, one in 50 adults suffers from OCD


Something to think about.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

HondAudio said:


> Are you covering every single wire in the head unit harness in its own matching TechFlex color?


Yep. I'm the only one that will ever know, but it bugged me enough to do it.


Ya, maybe a little bit of undiagnosed ocd going on. I still say it comes from my motocross days. Before every single race, the bike would come apart, and every single pivot/slide point (levers, throttle tube etc.) would get cleaned and lubed, the pegs would get sharpened, and the frame polished. And tires would be replaced as soon as they lost their edge. BUT, it was and still is the nicest feeling bike I ever rode. And that was for local racing.

You guys should see what I'm doing today. The sub and mids are in the car, and im about to go listen to some sine sweeps, not because I enjoy the sweeps, but because at full volume, any rattles or resonances should make themselves known, and I can take care of them while the cars gutted. Then I gotta do it again when the HVAC's in, and again as I put the dash back in. A little overkill probably, but I have 4 weeks until I'll have the money to finish this, and I have enough deadening laying around that I'll be pissed if I get it back together and theres rattles.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Great job and I applaud your OCD lol. My question is this, why did you remove your Denon and JBL MS8 from your equation? I have an MS8 and was going to run a Nakamichi CD500, but I am curious as to why the switch. Don't get me wrong, I love the Pioneer unit and would swap my two pieces out in a minute, I just wanted to understand your reasoning behind this. Tia.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

I just went to the p99 for the exact same reasons lol. Loving it!


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Now of course my next question is where did you order yours from? This now means that I should have followed my first feelings and ordered this. Oh well the MS8 can go into my Dodge Ram, and the Nakamichi can go into my Gti.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Honestly, it was because the denon failed. The cd player no longer works, and I didn't have the patience to get it fixed now. The ms-8 will go in my wifes car.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

My MS8 will go into my Dodge Ram, and the Nakamichi will be up for sale. Sad part is the Nakamichi has never been out of its box lol.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Cool man, just saw this thread. Looks like your going crazy on it!!!!!!


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## suzi427 (Oct 6, 2011)

lookin good!


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## Mopar244DIY (Dec 1, 2009)

Subscribed!


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## sq_guru (Oct 1, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> holy crap...your FIRST build?!?! what do you do for a living?!
> 
> cant wait to see the rest!


No kidding! First SQ build and you've completely stripped down the car?! Or did the car conveniently start out that way? Looking forward to seeing the rest of the build.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

As far as stripping the car, it is my first build. However, its my 4th time stripping a neon down this far, once building a gutted race car, and twice when scrapping neons (due to some of californias pathetic smog laws, who knew that improving your cars mpgs was illegal because of smog laws).


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## StruckBy99 (Jan 12, 2010)

Any updates??


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll get something up early next week, I currently cant find my cameras battery. The car will be up and driving by next thursday, and playing a week after that.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks for the encouragement guys.
> 
> As far as stripping the car, it is my first build. However, its my 4th time stripping a neon down this far, once building a gutted race car, and twice when scrapping neons (due to some of californias pathetic smog laws, who knew that *improving your cars mpgs was illegal because of smog laws*).


Does. Not. Compute...


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

In California, you have what are called California smog models. Theses are not allowed to be touched by anything not CARB approved. Well, the California only neons are 3 speed automatics that get about 28 mpg on the freeway. When I started driving 110 miles a day, I decided to put a stickshift in, since the auto tranny was failing, and the stick shift can get 40mpg on the freeway. Turns out that's a no-no. Came time to smog the called, it got caught, and registration was revoked until I could prove it had the legal tranny in it. I scrapped it instead and found a stick shift neon, which didn't have those rules.

The kicker is that when I talked to CARB about it, I explained that going from the auto to the stick would allow me to go from using 1000 gallons of gas a year to 750 a year. Their response was that I couldn't prove that it would lower emissions, just because it got better mpgs.

Another note, upgraded alternators are technically illegal here, as CARB considers the alt to be a drivetrain part, meaning to be legal, it would have to be CARB approved.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Great build so far! i look forward to seeing how it turns out...


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks, installed stereo in dash today with dash out of car, it wont be possible to remove the stereo without seriously stripping the dash down. Finishing the last of the deadening tomorrow, and installing the hvac and dash so the car can be driven Thursday and friday audioless. Then the speakers, amps and sub will go in next Thursday and friday.


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## widebody71 (Sep 5, 2011)

MORE PLEASE!!!


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks, installed stereo in dash today with dash out of car, it wont be possible to remove the stereo without seriously stripping the dash down. Finishing the last of the deadening tomorrow, and installing the hvac and dash so the car can be driven Thursday and friday audioless. Then the speakers, amps and sub will go in next Thursday and friday.


Why would you make it so difficult to take out the stereo? What's the advantage here?


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Probably because it'll be more solidly mounted than just going the normal way. You get more points in comps if the radio doesn't move. Also, harder to steal before you get out there with your baseball bat or .45.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Jay hit the nail on the head with theft prevention. Im not worried about people stealing my stuff. Im more worried about people getting pissed cause they can't steal it and breaking something.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

The sad part is that stereo thieves rarely even know what they've got. My first Neon had my old Pioneer DEX-P88 (circa 1997-1998) in it, which was a dead head. They stole it, and ripped a couple of wires out of the harness rendering the unit completely useless. They also tried to rip my door panels off to get the door speakers, except there weren't any, and apparently they didn't see the $500 component sets in the kicks. 

They'd probably destroy TooStubborn's radio (I don't remember which one he had, but I want to say it was an old, rare Denon or Rockford) and if they managed to get it out, still not be able to get anything for it.

We had a guy come in with a Pioneer AVIC-Z1 or Z2, motorization on the screen didn't work, beat to sh*t, no RCA harness (which you need to do the video bypass) and no mounting hardware....but he only paid $250 (snicker)...I wouldn't have given someone $10 for that. Hoodrats are so stupid.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

They sure are. The denons in the garage now, in its place a p99. My hope is that they wont even bother since it doesn't play video.

I once had my old stereo stolen, cheap Sony explod. Never seen such a clean theft job. No damage, bezel around the stereo replace after the radio was out, and $100 of craftsman tools under a towel on the passenger side floor untouched. So much for a gated, security guarded community. I still think the guard was involved.


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## mrm1776 (Oct 30, 2010)

Nice work! Subscribed


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The kicker is that when I talked to CARB about it, I explained that going from the auto to the stick would allow me to go from using 1000 gallons of gas a year to 750 a year. Their response was that I *couldn't prove that it would lower emissions, just because it got better mpgs.*


Again... Does. Not. Compute.

IF 1000x=y, where x= emissions PPM per gallon and y=total emissions; 
THEN 750x =.75y; and .75y < 1y

California algebra FAIL.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Exactly my point. They I told them that and they told me that its against the law and that there's no reason to ever break the law.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Couldnt find the camera battery, then when I find it, the memory card is missing. So cell pics until its finished. Finished kick panels tonight. Lots of pics coming in the next two days. Have thursday and friday to finish the car completely, in time for a Meca competition and DIYMA meet down in socal that is on sat. Dash, steering wheel, pedals, carpet, amp rack, audio wiring, seats, and exhaust all have to be put back where they belong. In addition to getting the back windows tinted on friday, and having time to tune the stereo. Hopefully my buddy from fresno can come help on friday.


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## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

pods look very good


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, so much for that. The carpet is so thick, it made getting the grills back on a PITA, so I'm behind and wont finish till maybe sunday. Still gonna head down to the meetup on sat though. Some luxury liner pro down and the kicks bolted in. Tested with my ipod and the amp, no resonance problems so far.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

This car is going to be a peace of art!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

thanks quickaudi

Dash, pedals and steering wheel are in, along with some trim pieces. Ran out of light for more pics, should be up and running monday. Need to do wiring, more trim pieces, carpet, exhaust, egr, etc.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> thanks quickaudi
> 
> Dash, pedals and steering wheel are in, along with some trim pieces. Ran out of light for more pics, should be up and running monday. Need to do wiring, more trim pieces, carpet, exhaust, egr, etc.




After doing so much work to this car, I just hope there is no vibration anywhere! I would be really mad if something would go bad under the dash and you hear unwanted sound...
But I'm sure you did a great job covering everything up...

I'm sure people asked you that before, what amps are you going to use for this build and sound processing?


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## Jonny Hotnuts (Mar 15, 2011)

> Jay hit the nail on the head with theft prevention. Im not worried about people stealing my stuff. Im more worried about people getting pissed cause they can't steal it and breaking something.



Quick story:

I was working in a shop in the late 90s and a guy with a suzuki samurai came in and wanted a Nak TD1200 installed. The problem is that he often had the top and doors off and the dash was accessible by reaching under. 

I had this 'brilliant' idea to install the deck by using plumbers tape (metal strapping with holes) attached with allen bolts to both sides of the deck and then 1 around the steering column and the other attached to a hard point. 

I also glued a series of razor blades (*using locktite black max) around the perimeter hanging over the back of the deck about 1/2". 

He came back to the shop in about a month and his carpet (once grey) was black and his deck was pushed on about 2" (*it was crazy solid before....no way it would move). 

Turns out some drunk or drugged out MFer tried for what must of been an hour (guess from the amount of blood) pushing on the back of that deck. With drugs or adrenaline didnt realize his hands were being mutilated.....until it was far too late. 

Another twist of the story is that one of his good friends took a trip to california the day after and called to say he was in a knife fight a week after all this happened....funny how he only got his hands sliced up during this 'fight'. 

The deck was shot.....so full of blood it wouldnt work. 1000$
The carpet was destroyed. 200$
Knowing who your friends really are and getting revenge that will leave a permanent reminder not to steal to some low life?????

Priceless!


Your comment reminded me.....just thought I'd share. 
And I have seen MANY instances where stereos are stolen by people you think are friends....no ****. 

~JH


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I was using a Denon DCT-R1, hooked to a MS-8. Due to the Denon cd player motor failing, I'm now using a Pioneer P99 for source and processing. Amps right now are 3 kicker zx's, one that does 70x2 for the tweeters, one that does 150x2 for the mids, and one that does 1000x1 for the sub, although its only using about half of that. I have something else in the works for future amps.



Johnny, I seriously thought about razors, but tried something else. There are multiple different kinds of bolts holding that thing in, so it would take multiple types of tools and taking the dash half way apart to get to it. Thats a good story though. Nothing I hate more than a thief, other than a thief that gets away with it.


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## Jonny Hotnuts (Mar 15, 2011)

The sad thing is my brother that if I was to do something like this today with my own ride and some methhead MFer f-ed himself up they would likely sue my arse and win for a billion. 

BTW< love the build so far.


~JH


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## Thrill_House (Nov 20, 2008)

Im lovin' this build!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

The Good

Hooked the car up and played it for the first time yesturday, untuned. So far so good, no rattles or weird resonances so far.

The Bad

The car is dead. The powertrain control module seems to have failed. Car runs like crap, and the redline is now kicking in at 4000 rpm instead of the normal 7200 rpm. Looked at getting a mopar performance pcm, but it is discontinued. A stock "refurbished" one from dodge costs more than $1200. And there are no pcms on any of the neon forsale boards. Looks like I'll be hitting the junkyards Friday, although having a stick shift dohc, that means I'll be lucky to find one. The car may be down a for a while because of this. 

Either way, this was the last straw on this car. Parts prices for it have tripled in the last year for everything that they didnt discontinue. The special bolts for the flywheel went from $8 to $24 a piece. After my wifes 2010 civic is paid, I'll be taking over that car so she can get a new one, and that car will get the full treatment. I'll probably stop on the neon with the new tweeters, L6SE', and new subs.


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## PottersField (Mar 18, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The Good
> 
> Hooked the car up and played it for the first time yesturday, untuned. So far so good, no rattles or weird resonances so far.
> 
> ...


**** man, that's sad to hear. I frequent the you-pull it places quite a bit as I've been in search of some parts for my car. I'll keep an eye out and if I find a PCM I'll grab it for you. But yeah, they're hard to come by.

Actually, since it's a DOHC, you might try cross-referencing the PCM with the 2G Eclipse. They might share the same PCM and if so that'll open up some options for finding a replacement.  Look at the PCM, grab the part number off it and hit up ebay. You might have luck finding one there, too.




Jonny Hotnuts said:


> And I have seen MANY instances where stereos are stolen by people you think are friends....no ****.


Back in high school my parents had a full install done in my car as a Christmas/birthday gift. Very nice for the time (late 90's). My car got broken into while my parents and I were gone one night, all the windows knocked out, lights all busted out, stereo stolen, paint keyed, the whole nine. There were footprints all over where they had been walking on the hood and the sheriff took fingerprints but never found a match. My "best friend" came to my house a week later with a box full of all my stereo gear and confessed to the whole thing, along with naming two other people I considered friends. He even told me to call the sheriff and waited in our kitchen for the deputy to come to the house.

So yeah, just goes to show you can't always trust the people you trust the most.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks Potters, if you find anything, let me know, I'll update here if I find anything friday.

I did check on the eclipse compatability, but the connectors are different, and I believe the firing order is different, so it wouldnt swap over. I'll actually be taking the pcm to my buddys house friday, helping him get a new clutch in, then trying my pcm on his car. If its bad, then were going to hit up all the local junkyards and see if we can find anything.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Jonny Hotnuts said:


> Quick story:
> 
> I was working in a shop in the late 90s and a guy with a suzuki samurai came in and wanted a Nak TD1200 installed. The problem is that he often had the top and doors off and the dash was accessible by reaching under.
> 
> ...


I've heard stories of people doing this. As an installer, here's my take on it, tho...

What happens when he takes the car somewhere else (or sells it, and the new owner brings it in to get a new radio)..I don't know there are razor blades on the back of the radio and I mess up my hands in the normal course of my livelyhood...I'd be pissed. REAL pissed.

But yeah, it's usually a friend or aquaintance or someone who knows your car from seeing you bump around town at full volume all day.

Jay


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## Winterboy04 (May 13, 2010)

I thought i had OCD...but holy crap man, subscribed!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey, Too Stubborn, I talked to a friend of mine (he owns my old black ACR) to see if he or his other friend (both of whom horde Neon parts) if they could help you out. His name is Jeremy. He should be contacting you, I hope.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks Jay. I actually got the stupid thing running. I dont know what it was, I put the computer in my buddies car and it worked fine. Brought it back home, put it back in my car, and it ran fine. I dont know. My wife saw it running like crap the day before too, so I know it wasnt me just being crazy. lol.

Cars running again. Kind of irritated, I dont know what it was, but for some reason when I plugged the computer in this morning it was working fine. I will be getting tint tomorrow, and then finishing bolting in the audio parts and trim pieces.

Heres a look at the new tweeters that are going in.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I had an issue with mine a couple of times where it would not run right, or idle and stall...I pulled the battery cables, held them together, and then put them back on the battery and it would run fine for like 6 mos...I just dealt with it.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Ya, were thinking that since the computer sat for 2 years in storage, maybe the pins were just corroded, and the unplugging and plugging it in a few times scrapped the corrosion off.


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

Wow, if this truly is your first built, I give you mad respect for steppin up to the plate with the vehicle and equipment used for the system. BOL on a successful install. Subscribed to this thread. No doubt.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Honest first build and first time playing with fiberglass. I learned a ton on this build, there's probably 40 things I would do differently now. But, that's why I did it myself. Thanks for the compliments.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Looks like the neon beats out the civic. Actually it doesnt seem even close. I'd love to look at buying something else, but what I have is what I can use. 2010 Civic vs 1998 Dodge Neon.

PLD's - I really thought the honda was going to win out in this one, but thats not the case. In fact, the PLD for the proposed midrange and tweeter positions is only better by 0.25" in the civic. The kicks go to the neon, with a PLD thats better by 0.75". That leaves with the neon having a slight advantage, with a midrange PLD of 11", and midbass PLD of 9.75".

MPG - Since this is also a daily, MPG is a big deal to me. That said, this is another slight tilt to the neon. As is, they get about equal mileage right now, with the power steering disabled on the neon(done purposely). BUT, the civic is already pretty mpg optimized, while there are a lot of little things I can do to the neon to reduce parasitic and aero drag losses, and improve the mpg with no downsides. 

Power - This is the neon, hands down. While on the surface, its not that big of a difference. The civic has 140HP and 128FT-LBS. The neon has 150HP and 133FT-LBS. But, as stated earlier, the civic is pretty optimized and theres not much I could do to improve the power without increasing noise from it or decreasing mileage. On the other hand, I know of several things that can be done to the neon engine to improve power and mileage by reducing some seriously flawed parts in the engine, reducing large amounts of parasitic losses.

Weight - This is where the neon really stands apart. As anyone thats seen this build has noticed, I believe mass loading the crap out of enclosures is great. With the civic, I can add a total of 675 pounds. With the neon, I can add 835 pounds plus. Added to that, is the fact that the civic with that weight added will weigh 3670 pounds, and the neon will weigh 3500, and the neon wins hands down.

Road Noise - Again as a daily driver this is important for me. In this case, the neon wins hands down. The civic has horrible resonance problems at freeway speeds. The neon doesnt have this issue.

Wind Noise - The civic wins this hands down. The neon has frameless doors so there is definately wind noise there. I plan to readjust the windows and try to get them tighter, but if I get a chance, I may just have some doors built with frames for the car, as its something thats been down before. I also will use lexan, since its lighter and less resonant than glass.

Parts Availability - The civic also wins this. Unfortunately the neon is an old car, with limited aftermarket support, and now that Fiat has taken over Dodge, limited OEM support. In fact OEM prices have recently tripled. However, the car is much simpler, and many parts can be fabricated as better alternatives.

Dash - The final straw, the dash. My next iteration of my build will have the midranges and tweeters in the dash. The neon is hands down the winner here. I'll let the pictures speak.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


>


Yep... Honda started to annoy me a few years ago when they started putting in those ridiculous, angular and asymmetrical dashes. Look at that: it looks like the radio controls aren't even level!

In comparison, take a look at the dashboard from a first-generation Scion xB:










Flat, symmetrical speaker grills on either end of the dash: perfect as bases for speaker pods


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, this is how it sits for now. 

Right side kick panel









Left side kick panel









Head Unit









Temporary tweeter location









Temporary amp rack









Custom RCA's









Temporary sub


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Man, looking at the amp rack again is horrible, when its covered at least you dont see it. At least at night, it can pass for a seat. A friend actually thought i had put the rear seat back in until I lifted the cloth.

I had an issue with the cd I used to set the gains. It was given to me by a local shop, and was supposed to be 0db test tones. I set the gain without the speakers hooked up with a scope, and played them for a good two weeks. At the volumes I listen to it at, everything was great. However, I hadnt turned it all the way up, mostly because its damn nice, and I just hadnt had the urge to until I got it tuned. I let a couple friends in the car, and let them have a loud demo. Now, if the cd had been filled with 0db test tones, then even at full volume, you would be able to damage the speakers with music. But, the cd wasnt. In fact, after my friends said it sounded funny, I checked, and sure enough, it sounded like it was clipping at full volume, and smelled horrible. After breaking out the cd and scope again, I checked the cd. Sure enough, they were -15db test tones  . I went back and set them with real 0db test tones, but the damage was done. While my friends were playing Skrillex, the mids were seeing almost a square wave. They still play, but they sound like they are clipping when a song has strong 1000hz info in it. In fact, a 0db 1000hz tone at 25 watts sounds like its clipping, even though its not. Thats what 225 watts of rms power with a square wave will do. 

So, now I'll be upgrading. The tweeters were fine, gains were burried on those. Those will end up in the pillars more than likely. The mids will be replaced with Hybrid Audio Technologies Legatia Special Edition L6SE's. These have 9mm one way xmax vs the 6mm on the Imagines that are currently in there, 4cm more cone area, higher power handling, and a much lower FS, so I can easily play them lower. The kicker is currently going to be replaced with a set of Dayton HF15's, in infinite baffle, while awaiting Hybrid Audio's new infinite baffle subs that they are working on.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

This next post is out of pure boredom. Wifes at the coast with her mom, so I was bored last night.

The car sounds better than it will in the videos, but the camera actually sounded pretty decent for what it is. Again though, much much better in person.

Pink Floyd - Signs Of Life


Pink Floyd - Have A Cigar (Guitar Solo)


Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture (directed by Antal Dorati, recorded in 1960) (Towards end of song, with canon fire from real napolean era canons) (CD scratched, there is a slip skip at the end, need to fix this)


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Trivium - Kirisute Gomen


Skrillex, Bare Noise, Foreign Beggars - Scatta


Yes, I listen to a wide variety of music.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, as posted earlier, this friday I'll be ordering a set of L6SE's. I've decided these are going in the dash, first as a midbass/midrange in a 2 way setup, and later, when I get some L8SE's, as a large format midrange. I got the baffles started, the front is going to get a 1/2" roundover on the outside edge. After the speakers come in, I'll do the final test fit, and then coat them in resin and begin listening to different angles, to see what works best. These are going to go all the way against the beam that goes across the top of the firewall, and will vent out through it as well. Tweeters will be nearly touching. I made every effort possible to flush mount the drivers to keep possible diffraction to a minimum.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Started taking the dash down today, might cut some of the plastic later, if not I'll do it tomorrow. Need to get all of the plastic cut, and the base made so this weekend I can extend the wires for the gauge cluster. I believe there are 32 wires that need to be extended about 1.5' to get the guage cluster in the center of the car. I also have to figure out how I'm going to run the HVAC ducts, since those will have to be completely custom. 

Stock (fit is a little funny, because I had already removed the screws clamping the parts down)

















Removed the top panel, front passenger panel, passenger airbag, and passenger air duct.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

first build?! my first dab at car audio was putting in a HU... my first build.... now putting in 3 amps and comps and sub... ill start to take pics and share. nice work

CC


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks.

Ya, I blame this on 2 years of OCD board surfing and project log stalking. And then especially on hearing cars at the last two gtg's at JT's in anaheim. I just dont take credit for the finish work, I'm still intimidated to try the actual finish work. More coming tomorrow, including the first cuts, and the round overs on the baffles.

I'm probably going to play with angles for a month or two, until I'm dead happy with the imaging, since the speaker mounts are going to be a permanent addition to the car, at leasts without stripping it and dipping it in chemicals. The mounts for the mids/tweeters are going to be bonded to the car.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

I can't remember if this has been asked... but are you in California or Canadia? If in Cali, what part?
Never mind, looked at the first page and saw you're in Visalia haha. Reading > Me. Shame you aren't closer, I'd love to see you at work and hear this beast.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I brought it down to the last gtg at JT's, hoping to have it together before the next one, but we'll see. Either way, it will make it to socal a few times this year.

Saturday I actually have a neon guy coming up from lancaster to pick up the deadened dash parts I'll no longer need. Today, the sawzall comes out, and the drivers side catches up to the passenger side.


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## bitperfect (Oct 1, 2010)

Nice build!

I just read through this entire thread. Visalia, CA I'm from Exeter born and raised. 

I know exactly what you mean about the shops there I probably went to every shop in a 30 mile radius and would only buy from a shop or 2. 

You have set the bar high for a "first timer"  I am planning on starting my first real build soon. 

Keep up the good work!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Ha, small world huh? I was talking to a guy on the buwalda forums, and turns out the guy lives in visalia and his youger brother went to school with me.

Good luck with the build, this things only made it this far through tons and tons of reading.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So, the dash is not symetrical from the factory. This is going to be a lot more complicated than just a simple top half rebuild. The whole plastic part will have to be scraped and rebuilt. The part that holds the stereo and hvac controls is further thowards the right side of the car. This will need to be rebuilt smaller and centered. The entire hvac duct system for the defrost and vents will have to be redone. So much for a simple quick rebuild.

Speakers are on the way. Two L6SE's, and a set of grills for the L8SE's so I can start preparing for this fall, when I pick up a set of the L8SE's. I cant say enough about Scott and HAT's customer service. I emailed him the day before to get a total price, then called the next day to place the order, but got voicemail. A few hours later, Scott called me back and got the order taken care of. Turns out he had been having a work on the car day, but wanted to make sure he got the speakers out to me before fedex got there, so he called me back just in time to get them packed for fedex.

Speaker Info
Hybrid Audio Technologies - Legatia SE

L6SE
Overall Diameter - 7.125"
Mounting Depth - 3.0625
Power Handling RMS (with no high pass crossover) - 85 Watts
Peak Power Handling (with no high pass crossover) - 170 Watts
Peak Power Handling (with 50hz 24db/octave high pass crossover) - 225 Watts
FS (resonant frequency) - 50hz
Efficiency - 89.5db @ 1w/1m
One Way xmax - 9mm
SD (total effective cone area) - 13478mm2
Frequency Range - 50-1000hz +/- 3db

On to the dash, this is as far as I am so far. Was hoping to take the sawzall to it this weekend, but with the need to rebuild most of it, I didnt bother. I did pick up a tilt steering column, and another set of seat brackets.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So, why the seat brackets when I already extended the seat brackets that are on there? I'm going further back. The current seat brackets will be sacrificed to the PLD gods, to make a set what extends 4" further back than stock, a 2.25" improvement over where I'm at now. 

However, I dont want this to be a competition only car, one where you get to a comp and slide the seaat all the way back. So, I am moving the controls towards me. The tilt steering column will go on the car, and the end of the steering shaft from the old column will be grafted onto the new tilt column, to extend the steering wheel about 3". The pedals will be extended about 2.25", because they are perfect where they are now, so an extra 2.25" on the seat requires the same at the pedals. 

The shifter is where it gets more complicated. I currently have a Maddog short throw shifter. I want the shift knob moved back about 6", to make it the perfect length when my arm is resting on the armrest. This would get in the way of the e-brake though. So, I'm thinking of using a linear actuator to control the e-brake, and build a new console to elimiate the e-brake arm, so the shifter can be anywhere I want without interfering. Once I figure this out, I'll ship the shifter back to be modified, so that even with the longer shift shaft, the throw will still be the same as it is now.


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

This was a great build to start with. But this is turning into an epic build quickly. Best of luck to ya with the dash. You are WAY braver than me. I have always tossed around the idea of buying a Neon as a project.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks pjc.

I like the way Todd (highly) put it in his build log. He said something along the lines of he went as far as he did with his build to push himself into doing things he might have been scared to to before. Thats kind of what I'm doing. 

The nice thing about the neon is its just so easy to work on. Once you get over the fact that dodge used weird sizes for the bolt heads (10, 11, 13, 15, 18, 19, 21mm), its easy work on.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I brought it down to the last gtg at JT's, hoping to have it together before the next one, but we'll see. Either way, it will make it to socal a few times this year.


Awesome to hear to made it to JT's last meet! I think they have one in April now, I'm hoping to finally make it out for that.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Sounds good. Ill more than likely be there, with half a dash. Just got some L6SE's for the dash build. But the imagines will still be playing by then. The dash is going to take a while.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Thanks pjc.
> 
> I like the way Todd (highly) put it in his build log. He said something along the lines of he went as far as he did with his build to push himself into doing things he might have been scared to to before. Thats kind of what I'm doing.
> 
> The nice thing about the neon is its just so easy to work on. Once you get over the fact that dodge used weird sizes for the bolt heads (10, 11, 13, 15, 18, 19, 21mm), its easy work on.


I'd like to pick up another one as a project...I miss mine. All 3. LOL

Easy to work on...unless you are doing a timing belt/water pump/tensioner/oil pump with the engine in the car. LOL

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Even then, timing belt/water pump isnt that bad in the car, unless you still have the power steering. My ps pump was gutted, lines and resevoir removed, then the gutted pump was filled and sealed and is now used as an idler pulley so i can still have ac.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

i have always wanted to extend the seats to the back seats, remove the front seats all together (or maybe replace the back bench with the front buckets) and extend everything. good luck sir. im jealous!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks Req. 

The single biggest issue for me is the seat belts. At 4" further back, the seat belts will no longer be optimal. Eventually I'll probably end up with sparco reclining seats and a harness bar/harnesses, especially with this being my daily. At the very least, the outside lap belt mount will also need to move back 4". That and of course the lack of airbags. Then again, I never really trusted the neons airbags. Seen a few of them go off for no reason.

However, I cant help feeling safer with the seat further back. I'm at a more structurally strong part of the car (between the b-pillars), and at the point where the roof to head distance is greatest. In addition, the crash tests of the neons always show significant damage to the legs and ankles, something that I assume can only be helped by more leg room.


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## SAM77H (May 19, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> However, I cant help feeling safer with the seat further back. I'm at a more structurally strong part of the car (between the b-pillars), and at the point where the roof to head distance is greatest. In addition, the crash tests of the neons always show significant damage to the legs and ankles, something that I assume can only be helped by more leg room.


Nice work ! I must remember the safety issues when justifying my labour to the wife !


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Got the new midbass/midranges in. HAT L6SE's. Got the test baffle done too, going to use this to get the aiming right, then build the final baffle.


































The back of the mid's mounting hole still needs to be chamfered, but aside from that, its ready to start playing. As soon as the dash is ready that is.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

And now, to compare the old speakers with the new. Hybrid Audio Technologies Imagine I6 vs Hybrid Audio Technologies Legatia Special Edition L6SE.


















FWIW, although my final plans for the car was an L8SE, L6SE and L1 Pro R2 combo, the Imagines are by no means a "bad" speaker. In fact, it would have probably been a couple of years before I upgraded if it wasnt for my blowing the Imagines.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Nice to see the progress. Didn't expect to see the L6SE's quite so soon. 

And, bitperfect... I'm the other guy from Visalia. I should be posting my (not nearly as extreme) build log soon.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Ya, the L6's are only here because i get 3 checks this month. I figured i didnt want to build kicks for these, then eventually build another set for some L8SE's, so the dash build began.

Let me know if you need any help with yours, mine will be going slow due to budget.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Can’t blame you for making the move on the L6’s. 

Mine is in a holding pattern right now as well. Waiting on the HU to get delivered as well as some additional funds for enclosure, amp kit and deadening. The HU will probably go in immediately after it arrives. 

If you need some help on yours, let me know as well. My weekends are pretty booked right now helping Drew get his truck ready for Danger Zone at the end of the month, but my week nights are fairly free.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Whats Drew doing to his truck? I completely forgot about Danger Zone, someone at work just told me about it a couple of weeks ago too.

I'm usually done working on the car by 6 or so, waking up for work at at 2:30 takes its toll, but thanks for the offer. 

I'll probably cut some of the plastic dash parts today to get a proper listen where the speakers will end up going. I did listen the other day, just with the back of the baffle wrapped in a sweatshirt, on the dash but forward and inwards of where they are going. It was just the right side, but it made a huge difference from the kick panels. The resonance that was there during certain female voices was gone, and it seemed like the sound stage was deeper. This weekend I'll get the seats extended again, for good this time, and relisten, and start playing with angles. My plan is to get some temporary baffles made by the 7th for the socal gtg at JT's, since the full dash build is going to take a while.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

From the drivers seat, before extending the rails again. Going to have to shrink the baffles a little bit to get them slightly more off axis from the windshield.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Whats Drew doing to his truck? I completely forgot about Danger Zone, someone at work just told me about it a couple of weeks ago too.


He's rebuilding an S-10 that was a former feature truck in Street Trucks. He got a "Where are they now?" feature with it as well. We're working on our one-off chassis and suspension right now. Hoping to have a rolling chassis with the cab by Danger Zone.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Nice, I'll probably have to run by there and check it out.


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## underdog (Jul 5, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> Not really, The Neon was certainly a more solid car than a similar year Civic...I may be biased.


Do not know about Civic.
Had a 96 Corolla and a 98? Neon at one time.
The Corolla got better fuel mileage.
After that i preferred the Neon in every way.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Neon fuel mileage completely depends one which engine/transmission combo you have.

The single cams always get better mileage than the double cams, everything else equal.

However, from there, there are 5 different transmissions. 

There are two automatic transmissions, one for sohc and one for dohc neons, however, they are close enough to the same that mileage differences are negligible. If you have an automatic first gen neon (95-99), your mileage will suck no matter what. All first gen autos were 3 speeds, and you can expect a combined city/hwy average of 28mpg. 

There are 3 manual transmissions. One with a .72 th gear and 3.55 final drive, one with a .81 5th gear and 3.94 final drive, and one with a .81 5th gear and 3.55 final drive.

The .72/3.55 came with sohc cars (except for ACR's and sports), and should get an average of 38mpg city/hwy combined, and up to 44 on the freeway.

The .81/3.55 came on the sport models, both sohc and dohc, and should get 34-36 average, city/hwy combined.

The .81/3.94 came on the ACR and R/T models, and should get around 30-32 average, city/hwy combined. FWIW, when I had this tranny in my car, I could go up the grapevine in 5th gear and never have to downshift. 

I now have the .72/3.55 in my car, with a aluminum flywheel, dohc, and no power steering. With some mild aeromods, I can get 52mpg+ on the freeway with the ac on. I got 48mpg from Visalia to Vegas for my wedding, with 830-850 pounds of people/luggage.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Funny how a 14 year old car with some minor mods done by someone who is not a professional mechanical engineer (or are you?) can get mileage that rivals todays hybrids. 

When car companies make a big deal because their cars get 40mpg, I remember the early 90's Geo Metro, and late 80's/Early 90's CRX HF's that got 50+ mpg, 20+ years ago.

When I sold my first Neon (1997 Neon ACR coupe with about 120k on it) to a buddy he had planned to put the SRT turbo setup on when he upgraded his (now) stage 3 SRT-4. When I talked to him a few months later, he said he was leaving it alone because he was getting 37 mpg. All I had done to it was an Iceman CAI and a cat back exhaust. I still had the .81/3.94.

My second ACR got stolen after 2 weeks, and then I had a '98 R/t that I really miss. 

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> Funny how a 14 year old car with some minor mods done by someone who is not a professional mechanical engineer (or are you?) can get mileage that rivals todays hybrids.
> 
> When car companies make a big deal because their cars get 40mpg, I remember the early 90's Geo Metro, and late 80's/Early 90's CRX HF's that got 50+ mpg, 20+ years ago.
> 
> ...


Nope, although, until I got my first motocross bike, I was on track to becoming an aeronautical engineer. Explains my interest in aerodynamics. Then motocross got my interest going in rotating, reciprocating and unsprung weight. That, and since I got my first bike, my dad basically told me to take it apart and put it back together until I learned how to work on it. My first motocross bike was a 79 KX80. I ported the carb on that one, and with my dads help (i was 14) made a billet triple clamp to replace the one I broke. Second bike was a 1996 KX250, revalved my suspension on that one and lightened a ton of parts, thats back when I was doing freestyle mx on the side for money. Also the bike I almost landed a backflip on. Third one, a 2004 CR250R, I ported the cylinder and carb.

First truck, had to rebuild the engine before I could drive it. Second truck, I put through hell and it still kept going, even after being 3' off the ground doing about 70mph down in the desert, on stock suspension. After that, its been all neons.

I dont think its that the car companies cant build an efficient car, I just dont think they want to risk upsetting the customers with a offbeat efficient design. Look at aerocivic. 95mpg, at 65mph, stock weight, stock engine, and $400 of home built aeromods built with hand tools.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So, heres the listening impressions so far listening to the speakers up on the dash, with towels on the back.

I had an issue before with the imaging, and I couldnt tune it out. If the stage was centered, the left side of the stage was compressed. Using the 7 drumbeat track, when the 4th drumbeat was centered, the left three drumbeats were close together, and too far left, while the right 3 drumbeats were evenly spaced. With the 4th drumbeat a foot to the right of center, the right drumbeats were compressed, and the left were evenly spaced. The happy medium was with the center 6 inches to the right. The other drumbeats were kind of spaced properly, although the left side of the stage was bigger than the right. I believe this was an issue of aiming, and reflections. The kicks had the right speaker on axis, adn the left was 35 degrees or so off axis. The second issue was a slightly low stage. This was another thing I couldnt really get around, even after playing with the tweeters up high. And lastly, certain songs had a strong resonance/reflection issue (ahem spanish harlem) that wasnt there when listening to the same songs with headphones. I think this was due to reflections off the hard dash and center console surfaces.

When I put them on the dash in the towel wraps, I aimed them so they were both equally off axis, maybe 17 degrees. The problems with the stage was gone. In fact, it only took 2 mins to reset the left to right time alignment, and the stage was equal on both sides, while having a good center. The height issue is also gone, as was expected. But, the resonance/reflection issue is also gone. Spanish Harlem now sounds as it does on the headphones as far as resonance of Rebecca Pidgeons voice goes. I wasnt expecting that, but its a welcome bonus.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, since I'm going full crazy now, I wanted to relocate the seats further back, and further inwards. Both to decrease path length differences, and also to improve stereo imagine by moving more towards the center between the speakers. But first, I needed to be sure I could drive with the seats moved over.

So, these are the test brackets, not very pretty, but functional. They now move 5.5" further rearwards than stock, and the seats are moved 1.25" inwards from stock. It took maybe 2 minutes to get used to it, but honestly I cant tell after driving it all weekend. Now I just need to make some nice looking brackets, extend the steering column, extend the pedals, and get my shifter back to Maddog to have him rework my Maddog short throw shifter.

Maddog Shifters

www.neons.org • View topic - Some examples of Custom Work - 56k beware

5.5" back from stock









1.25" in from stock


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

sweet!


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## metalball (Sep 8, 2010)

There is some serious craziness going on in this thread build!... And this is your **FIRST** official SQ build? Damn, kudos are definitely in order.

Keep up the good work!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I had a Maddog 50% shifter on my red Neon R/T. I miss it. I had him thread it and put a Viper ball on it. With the Booger bushings it was a great combo. I really miss that car.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Jim, are you going to be able to make it saturday?

Metalball, this is my true first build. Although I guess what I'm doing now could be considered a second build, or stage two, since the car was up and running for a couple of months before I gutted the dash.


Jay, I'll never own another neon without one of Chuck's shifters. The one I have is the 65-1 with the rod brake. When he reworks it, hes going to reduce the throw some more, since extending the shaft rearwards will increase the throw.


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## d5sc (Aug 14, 2007)

WOW, this is a really nice build! Great work and attention to details!

Thanks for sharing.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks, I should have some more pics up tomorrow. I got the entire passenger half of the dash removed except for the metal frame, I can finally start clearing out the un-needed wiring (stock speaker wires, airbag wires, power door locks/windows, etc.).

I am having some second thoughts about going infinite baffle, after moving the seats back and gutting the dash. I think there might be room for a pair of large subs up front, if I can work it out.:thinking2::evil:


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

If you gut the A/C there is probably at least .5 cubes of space behind the glovebox. When I had my first Neon (ACR, no A/C) I built a small fiberglass enclosure to house a Kicker C6a, to help reinforce my front stage.

Are you ditching the A/C altogether? I'd still want to keep power locks/windows...actually, you live in CA, don't you? I'd want the A/C too. LOL

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Actually, I seem to have one of the rare R/T's that didnt come with power door locks and windows, so I dont miss not having them. Lol, I kind of look at it as extra weight to go towards stereo and accoustical treatments. In the end, I'm in my car by myself most of the time, my wifes motion sickness prevents us from taking my car most of the time we go places together, since she cant drive it.

I definately wont ditch the AC. 110 and humid here in the summer. I have however thought about a couple of things. I think I have room for .75-1 cube per side of the dash with some creative fiberglassing. 

Or, I could relocate the entire hvac to the trunk. That would give me a ton of room. I could put a large sub with a large box on the passenger side, but I kind of dont like the assymetrical thing.

The other option is getting a stand alone electric AC, and again putting it in the trunk. This would give the advantage of the same extra space in the dash, and also reduced clutter in the engine bay, plus the ability to plug in at GTG's and run the AC with the car off. But I would need to figure out a way to do heat, and defrost.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Current state of the dash. Its coming all the way out tomorrow, and the rest of the plastic will be removed, except for the part that the vin number is on, that will be bolted to the car, just as it is stock, in the stock location. Tomorrow the tilt column goes in, and I start work on gutting the wires I dont need. All the power door/window stuff, the stock stereo stuff, etc. 










I'll have some big updates after this weekend.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

jesus man! keep up the sweet work!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks Req. 

Due to us bringing home our new puppy today, who happens to be sick, the gutting of wires will probably wait till after the weekend. 

However, I'll still have the big updates I spoke up after the weekend. I just got confirmation that the updates should work perfect.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Are we supposed to guess at the big updates? Are you sneaking in some Imagine subs into your dash? A couple of ported ISW6s, perhaps?


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## metalball (Sep 8, 2010)

How about relocating the radio lower near the shifter and using the cavity in the center of the dash for a 8" woofer?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, im just trying to wait as I'll be mocking it up next tues, and the pics will speak for themselves.

All I'll say now is, think Bigger.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I've got it! You're going carputer. Slapping one of these bad boys in your dash!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

You were closer with the first guess, just need to think bigger from that guess.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

You going to need me to being a certain something by to see if it will work in your dash?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Thats my backup plan. Think bigger and still under development.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I gotcha. If/when something pans out, I want to come see it.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So, part of my plans for the car include aerodynamic modifications, both to increase gas mileage, and reduce interior noise. One of the things that most people dont realize is that most "road noise" that isnt direct tire noise is actually wind buffeting the underside of the car. Eliminate the turbulance under the car, and that source of noise is gone.

Let me say that, this is going to be ugly to some (most) people. Thats ok. I've always been function over form. If it gets me a super quiet car on the inside, all the better to listen to my stereo.

Another thing to note, aerodrag is the leading fuel waste above 50mph (or lower with some vehicals like trucks). And drag goes up with the cube of speed, the faster you go the worse it is. With a stock dodge neon, it takes 7.83 wheel horsepower to overcome aero drag at 55mph. At 75mph, it takes 19.87 wheel horsepower. If you could reduce the neons coefficient of drag to .25 instead of .335, those numbers would drop to 5.85 wheel horsepower and 14.83 wheel horsepower respectively. Getting a neon to a coefficient of .25 should be attainable with modifications such as full wheel skirts, full undertray, and a few other little things. On to the pictures.

Stock









Temporary aero mods for testing

































As for results, the aeromods improved mileage by 2mpg at 55mph, and 2.3mpg at 65mph. These are low numbers as well, since between the first test and the time I got the mods in place for the second test, the wind changed from a sidewind to a headwind, and the temperature dropped 7 degrees.

As for noise, it was quieter from the rear quarter panels and from the front kick panel vents. In fact, the fronts were a big difference, since the speakers are not in the enclosures and since they were removed, the vent is open to the outside, only blocked from direct airflow by the plastic wheel well shield.

This means I can move forward with fiberglass aeromods, which should help even more, since I can do full wheel skirts with fiberglass.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I gotcha. If/when something pans out, I want to come see it.


Definately, you can check it out anytime you want. Its gonna be a long build, as the subs arent out, and money isnt what it was a year ago. But I'll keep plugging away in the meantime.

For everyone else, since rton20s figured it out.

The plan for this build is;

Two L1 Pro R2's in the dash, against the firewall, playing highs.
Two L6SE's in the dash, against the firewall, playing midrange.
Two L8SE's in the kicks, playing midbass.
Two L13 Pros's in the dash, playing sub-bass.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well not much to update. New member of the family has been sick. Almost didnt make it. Plus a week of rain, and no garage to pull into.

Thinned out some un-needed wires. Stuff like the power door lock wires, power windows, stock speaker and head unit wiring. Removed the passenger airbag mount. Tomorrow the dash comes out, and the rest of the un-needed wires will be pulled, the HVAC ducts will be pulled, and the tilt steering column will be put in.










My helper for the day, and new family member. 9 month old Canaan.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Very interesting, re: the aero mods. Care to expand on that, particularly how it lowers noise floor, or have a link that I can read up on?

Great work!!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

Glad to hear he is feeling better! 

Interesting aerodynamic mods, interested to see how you proceed! Your kicks still look awesome.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

As soon as i get home ill get you guys the link to my aero deadening thread. Food for thought, with the cars stock wheel horsepower and coefficient of drag of. 335, the stop speed limited by aero drag is 135mph. If i can get the coefficient of drag down to. 25, which is the same as a prius's, the top speed would be increased to 149mph, and gas mileage would improve. In order to get to 149mph with the stock aero drag, i would need 42 more wheel horsepower, and gas mileage would go down.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Ok Syd and Req, heres the link. I'm going to add another post there right now. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/127596-aerodynamic-sound-deadening-2-a.html

Thanks Req, Zero came pretty close. Had him a week, and had to take him to the ER, was barely breathing, not eating, and crying constantly. Had no balance and his back legs were locked stiff. Hes doing a lot better now. Waiting to see if the SPCA is going to help with some bills. They neutered him while he was sick, after we had already adopted him, and after telling us it was too dangerous to do that. It ended up being tetanus, which dogs dont generally get unless their immune system is weak, which being sick when they operated, it was.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for the link (googled it).

I will def be looking into the underbody treatment.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

No prob. I just added some more stuff to that thread, and will have some more after this weekend.


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## bitperfect (Oct 1, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Nice to see the progress. Didn't expect to see the L6SE's quite so soon.
> 
> And, bitperfect... I'm the other guy from Visalia. I should be posting my (not nearly as extreme) build log soon.


Awesome! Its always great to see people posting from the central valley. Will be not so patiently waiting for the build log...kind of reminds me, I should start one as well..


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So, I've been working on some ideas. I have room for two 8.5" midbass drivers if a push-pull manifold will work in midbass frequencies. So I plan on testing that, starting with my imagines, first in a large test box. I'll be testing a single imagine for distortion with an omnimic, followed by two imagines mounted normal, then the same imagines mounted push pull. Then I can test a single imagine in a slot manifold, followed by two imagines in a manifold mounted normally, and then push pull in the manifold. The manifold is 2.5". I may try 2.25" later on if this works.

I got the push-pull manifold done for my test speakers, only to find that I have to redo the baffle pieces. The hurricane nuts ended up being too big, so this one is getting screws, which shouldn't be an issue, since the baffle material is baltic birch. I'll try to get the test box and manifold finished by next weekend.

Spacing









Clearance between cone and magnet


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

Go on...


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Great build.


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## hyundave (Jun 7, 2012)

Damn this project has been going on for a while haha. I feel like you had your car gutted for almost 6 months! Amazing attention to the deadening


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

lol, thanks guys, it was actually gutted for 9 months, back together for 4, and now half gutted but driveable.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Anymore news on the status of this build please?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Honestly I've been slacking a little. Money's low till the beginning of the year, and its just been damn hot. Since I work 4am to noon, by the time I get home its already hot, especially without a garage, and I have to be in bed before it cools down. Last week it finally got to under 100, and now its back at 101.

I do have the dash out, and should have the wiring thinned out so I can put the guage cluster in the center of the dash by next weekend. Then comes reworking the HVAC vents.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Small update, more to come this weekend. Looks like the Revelators are out, just not enough room for me to be comfortable (safety wise) for them in the kicks. The basket outer diameter comes within 1/16" of the kick panel frame and 1/16" from the stock clutch pedal. Even if I move the pedals, in an emergency situation, its too close. So it looks like its the Illuminators that will be going in there, two per side.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm all for aero mods and I would really like to know how
you build the under body tray. The bottom of most 911's
are somewhat smooth but I would like to do one solid 
piece, many 911 dedicated track cars have just a tray
to cover the engine, but I would minimum like to do each
wheel. Just not sure if I want to use fiberglass or aluminum.
Are you going to do a rear diffuser also? 

The wheel arches are a bit much, I think I would make them
so they would bolt onto the lip of the wheel arch so you can
remove them if your around town. But then again just because
its not my taste doesn't mean its not yours, its what makes the
world go round and I can appreciate your efforts.

How would you go about taking any reliable measurement?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

There is an excellent build log for an Insight undertray that I'll link on the bottom of the page, its basically foam core fiberglass composite. I think the problem with any kind of sheet metal is that it could be noisy any time the wheel hits any kind of bump, unless you could put longitudinal creases in it. The belly pan on this car will be front bumper to rear bumper. I actually have a rotisserie being built for me right now, but I wont have time to get the car up on it until probably next summer. This will allow me to easily plan on the permanent version, including covering the suspension parts from airflow as well.

As for the wheel skirts, they'll be done in fiberglass to match the lines of the car as much as possible. The skirts will bolt on using riv-nuts. Actually, if my resin is still good, I plan to make a first attempt at the skirts this weekend. 

For testing aerodynamic noise, I plan on using an Omnimic setup to record an average, on a deserted road, using cruise control. I'll do a-b-b-a testing, since all parts will be able to bolt on and off. I'm expecting to see reductions in noise from the wheel skirts and the undertray. As for drag reduction testing, I'll do coast down tests and instant mileage tests with my scangauge.


http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/honda-insight-under-body-smoothing-panels-custom-belly-10638.html


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So, for the first bit of news, it looks like the project is on hold for a little while. Got hit with some unexpected problems, and money is way too tight right now. Hopefully by mid spring to early summer I can begin again.

That said, I did get some things for xmas from my dad to play with in the meantime.









ADXL335 Accelerometer

I'll be using this thing to properly deaden the car. Nothing is off the table, welding, bracing, lead, and normal deadening. I'll also be conducting a sound deadener shootout, with the goal of finding the abosolute best viscoelastic deadener, while also showing how lousy a deadener peel n seal is. 









Dwyer Magnehelic Gauge

I'll be using this to improve the aerodynamics on the car, to help lessen wind/road noise. Measures in inches of water, which is sensitive enough to measure pressure differentials due to aerodynamic loads on the car. First up will be getting my radiator duct optimized.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well this project is dead. Getting ready to buy a house. Eventually I will continue with a new audio project, with a different car, the details of which will slowly come out. Blame my wife for the next vehicle, she gave me the idea, and supported it when I took it seriously. It will be something completely unique, although drawing inspiration from a few other "custom" cars.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was curious to hear about the manifold loading of the midbasses...bummer on that.

But congrats on the new home.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Jason, I still have a test box set up for that, and I still intend to play around with different things while I wait for the right time to start the new build. I just need to get together with Cvjoint to test it with his Omnimic setup.

It will be nice to have an actual garage to build stuff in. 3 car, with 220V 3 phase.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Congratulations on the house! Still here in town? If so, what area. You'll have to let me know when you get your new project vehicle, I'd like to come check it out.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Yep, its actually my dads house, the one you came over to before. He left work and started his own thing down in socal, so hes here once a week, and probably once a month when starts his doctorate this fall. Were renting until the end of the year, at which point he's going to sign it over and we'll refinance it for a lower monthly. $1700 a month right now on a 15 year, were paying partial so we can pay stuff down. About $180,000 left on it. We'll refinance for a 30 year.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Congrats on the house! Shame to hear about the death of the Neon build, but sometimes it's the best thing to do. Ironically, I just finished upholstering the last piece of my Neon dash build and will have pics up tomorrow night (hopefully).


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Don't worry. The "brain, heart, arms, fingers, toes and legs" of this neon will be in the next car. Just not the "body and skeleton". I'll check yours out tomorrow. Still good to see another one getting finished.


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## milburyl (Feb 23, 2014)

That was a nice job. Too bad it's done now. I just started to build my own car, a 2006 Chrysler PT Cruiser, which has many of the same mechanical build as a Neon. I am not going as extreme as you went, as I am only using Rockford Fosgate equipment and nothing but Rockford Fosgate(amps, subs, speakers, and HU). My buddies all call me nuts, but I tell them that I love music and that at least in my car, I can turn it up and enjoy it without disturbing neighbors or my kids and girlfriend. 

Just a thought on your aerodynamics, what if you did "dimpling" on the underside, much like a golfball, since golf balls are dimpled for aerodynamics and also curling rinks ice surface is dimpled to reduce friction as well.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

What is this "Curling" you speak of? lol

I was sorry to hear of death of Neon build also, but probably more because I'm a Neon fan than anything else. If it had been any other car (say, a VW for instance) I'd have probably said "Bummer." and moved on. lol

Certainly looking forward to whatever you do next.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, I'm actually stalking you Jay, as my next build is also a Kia. 

Jk, kinda. We got my wife an optima to replace the totaled civic, so that will be my next project. Really trying to convince her on an up front 12" sub.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Really trying to convince her on an up front 12" sub.



I on the other hand am jealous of my wife's car that has one, and a full-size 12 at that with a full cubic foot.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, I wont have much time at the gtg due to my sisters wedding, but I really want to at least get my wife a demo in her car to seal the deal.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I wont have much time at the gtg due to my sisters wedding, but I really want to at least get my wife a demo in her car to seal the deal.



Maybe 5.25" point sources too, although that maybe pushing it.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol that's already set. Its just the up front sub that needs a little more convincing.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

You could make it easily removable (like in Bertholomey's BRZ, looks like a nice pressure fit and one nut at the top). and have a set of terminals under the dash and in the trunk. If you need the space, move it to the trunk. lol

As someone who works on cars everyday, I'm pretty happy with the construction of the Kia's I've worked on. They don't over engineer things (like door panel clips), use nicer materials than any American car in their class and it's easy to find info on them. If you haven't already, get an account on Kiatechinfo.com...they have all kinds of info including exploded diagrams and *wiring diagrams*. Very helpful.

I'm working on swapping my BitOne LCD out for a red/black one, so it matches the factory LCD in the cluster.

Does her car have the Infinity system in it? IIRC, they might use an SPDIF signal from the HU to the factory amp. I did a little research and found that SPDIF and Toslink digital optical use the same protocol, but that one is over copper and the other is (duh) optical. lol My UVO radio has the pins listed on the main board, so I'm going to try to tap them and use a Toslink transmitter to give me optical out to my Bitone. Might be a thought on hers...

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Completely agreed on build quality. We looked at the CLA before this car, and this car is much nicer overall. The only thing the CLA has that this one doesn't, is automatic brake priming, forward collision warning, and good gas mileage. But the Kia is soo much nicer, and even quieter (which I'll be improving even more).

It is the Infinity system, and I believe it does use SPDIF. I haven't looked yet, but that would be the plan, to tap that. I was thinking of using the MS-8 that's sitting in the garage, but I may just sell it off and get something else. 

I would likely build the box out of 1/4" baltic birch, laminated with fiberglass (or vacuum bagged cf, hoping to be able to pick up the vacuum this year) on both sides. This would maximize space, and allow her to easily pull it out if needed for something.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Which Kia model did you get again? 

Kelvin


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Completely agreed on build quality. We looked at the CLA before this car, and this car is much nicer overall. The only thing the CLA has that this one doesn't, is automatic brake priming, forward collision warning, and good gas mileage. But the Kia is soo much nicer, and even quieter (which I'll be improving even more).
> 
> It is the Infinity system, and I believe it does use SPDIF. I haven't looked yet, but that would be the plan, to tap that. I was thinking of using the MS-8 that's sitting in the garage, but I may just sell it off and get something else.
> 
> I would likely build the box out of 1/4" baltic birch, laminated with fiberglass (or vacuum bagged cf, hoping to be able to pick up the vacuum this year) on both sides. This would maximize space, and allow her to easily pull it out if needed for something.


What's a CLA? Not familiar with that one.

Jay


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> Which Kia model did you get again?
> 
> Kelvin


An Optima.
A friend of mine has the SX-L Chrome package one and it's pretty sweet.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Kelvin, we got her the Optima SX Turbo. 

Jay, the CLA is Mercedes new FWD model. Most aerodynamic mass production vehicle currently in production. A couple more active safety features, better gas mileage, but really rough ride, awkward gas pedal, and almost impossible to get in the rear seats.


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## milburyl (Feb 23, 2014)

Lol. This curling thing?? It's when you lifts weights with your arms to build muscle. Lol. Please tell me your just kidding about the curling?


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

milburyl said:


> Lol. This curling thing?? It's when you lifts weights with your arms to build muscle. Lol. Please tell me your just kidding about the curling?


Wrong type of curling. Curling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

milburyl said:


> Lol. This curling thing?? It's when you lifts weights with your arms to build muscle. Lol. Please tell me your just kidding about the curling?


Yes, I was kidding. Curling (the "sport") isn't real big in the US. But I live about an hour from the Canadian Border so I've seen it. lol

Jay


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

JayinMI said:


> An Optima.
> A friend of mine has the SX-L Chrome package one and it's pretty sweet.
> 
> Jay





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Kelvin, we got her the Optima SX Turbo.
> 
> Jay, the CLA is Mercedes new FWD model. Most aerodynamic mass production vehicle currently in production. A couple more active safety features, better gas mileage, but really rough ride, awkward gas pedal, and almost impossible to get in the rear seats.


Thanks  

If I'm not mistaken, one of Audi's chief designer went to Kia back in 2006 - Kia's design are much better now than when it debuted. 

Kelvin


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Yep, that's one of the first things the dealers would bring up. I knew it wouldnbe be quiet (my mom has an 05 kia spectra that with 80,000 miles was quieter than out 2010 civic was) but I didn't expect the ride and everything else to be as nice as it was.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Project neon is thoroughly finished. Car left today, to a buddy in fresno, who already bought the kick panels from it, and the cams, and ported head, etc. Really said to see it go, but no money to put into it with the increased parts prices and discontinued parts.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

This is a shame. I've read your whole build and it was a sweet setup. After market parts for 1gen neons are becoming expensive though. I have a 97 coupe with an srt4 swap running a pretty big turbo. A very very fun car but any aftermarket parts are way too expensive.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Yep, and oem parts have skyrocketed since fiat took over. $20 per lifter, and $16 per rocker is crazy. Clutch bolts for a non mod clutch are now around $8 a piece.


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

See I'm pretty lucky I got a whole engine rebuild kit for the srt motor for 400$ but when I needed shifter bushing couldn't find any locally and the dealer wanted 350$ for the whole shifter cables. Door clips were 7$ a piece for my 97. It's basically all stock other then the fuel system and srt4 swap. Got most of the parts off the forums


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

^^^I get all my parts from the forums and ebay as well. There's lots of guys with these cars just sitting around in pieces, but any urgent repairs and you're SOL.

Sad to hear that it's gone; I know you put soooo much time and a meticulous amount of detail into it. Life goes on!


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## tgotovac (Mar 25, 2014)

Yea I've been SOL a few times with my 97 neon. Now with the built motor though, it's just a weekend car so i don't rely on it as my daily anymore.


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