# Why are horns so rare?



## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Ok... Bear with me...

I am just curious why so many people in and out of competition are running normal tweeters/ components?
I have had only horns for the last 8 plus years of having a stereo in my cars..
I love the impact of the horns but I have also heard some really nice sounding systems running regular tweeters... Good imaging, deep stage etc... What I have not heard (in over 20 years) is a good sounding / tuned horn car... I just dont know anyone local with a horn car.

What am I missing?.. Are horns truly superior for stage/ image/ timbre and I just need some REAL tuning help or are Tweeters capable of making a really nice, impactful system?...

For some reason I am still intrigued with replacing the horns... 
Maybe I just need to experiment with some normal tweeters/mids and fail to get it out my system... 
I have tried in the past with cheapie parts... Afraid to spend good money until I know it will work out... I really liked a 4Runner that was running Morel point sources that I heard late last year.


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

Traditional speakers cannot provide the same dynamics that horns can period. It's also typically easier to get the imaging right with horns than with a component set. That being said it's not impossible to build a system with traditional speakers that performs well. 

Why don't you see them more?? One reason is they're different and a lot of people stick to what they know. It could be the assumption that they need a lot of EQ'ing to sound good, which is true to a degree but if your building a car at the level you're talking about you're gonna have EQ's anyway... Another reason is that Eric isn't marketing the horns as aggressively now as he was when he was still at Image Dynamics. Car Audio is a 1% sport and prob less than 1% of those people even know about horns. I'd be willing to bet that ID sold way more component sets than horns even though the horns are what made Eric famous.


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

I will also admit that my car just is a pain in the a$$ in a few ways with my horns... Foot e-brake, big ol plastic center console... Uneven dash left to right...
Not a deal breaker (hasnt been for years) but it definitely feels like a speed bump for the horns... 
I actually am a fan of the rare/ unusual which is a big plus for the horns...
Also love the dynamics of the horns... 
Maybe I will go back to my much kore hidden mini's and see what I can accomplish with them...

Unfortunately I am all over the map... While deciding the drivers I am also looking for better amps and planning where to mount them and the Rane...


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## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

Why would you consider a Rane these days? The Helix DSP pro is tiny and trounces the "old school" rack gear that people were converting.


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## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

lsm said:


> Traditional speakers cannot provide the same dynamics that horns can period. It's also typically easier to get the imaging right with horns than with a component set. That being said it's not impossible to build a system with traditional speakers that performs well.
> 
> Why don't you see them more?? One reason is they're different and a lot of people stick to what they know. It could be the assumption that they need a lot of EQ'ing to sound good, which is true to a degree but if your building a car at the level you're talking about you're gonna have EQ's anyway... Another reason is that Eric isn't marketing the horns as aggressively now as he was when he was still at Image Dynamics. Car Audio is a 1% sport and prob less than 1% of those people even know about horns. I'd be willing to bet that ID sold way more component sets than horns even though the horns are what made Eric famous.


Completely agree about your comment about need "a lot of eq'ing". The days of needing huge physical eq's are over. I keep smiling every time I use my Helix with my laptop. So stupidly easy and no more sliders to deal with, no running back to the trunk, no "where do I put this damn thing" thoughts.

I'd argue that a few quality horn install demos at some shows and shops would really bring them back. The hardest part of my "horn install" was creating the fiberglass pods for my mids. The horns were more of a few night "bend this/bend that" with my vice and some plumbing strapping (i.e. EASY relatively).


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Freudie2 said:


> Why would you consider a Rane these days? The Helix DSP pro is tiny and trounces the "old school" rack gear that people were converting.


I have a Rane RPM 26z
Not sure if you're thinking of the analog Ranes?
The RPM has ridiculous cpu power and over 100db dynamic range... Also has Dragnet which is almost magical how easy it is to add anything you like to the processing ...
Got it for 150 used (new was 1199.00 a few years ago)...
My horns with mini lenses fit decent (e brake removed).. Big bodies are a challenge , depth is a challenge and the brake pedal piches my foot between itself and the horn so that needs attention... And the dash height is at least 2 inches lower on the passenger side... Annoying more than anything...
I was contemplating maybe throwing some 3" point sources in the dash or at the base of the A pillars but not giving up on the horns just yet... 

Was just curious why horns seem to be all but gone nowadays


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## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

Makes more sense (Rane RPM unit) especially at the price you got. Indeed thought you were talking about the old analog Rane units from the 90's.

Horns take some creativity to mount at times. I had to remove my emergency brake pedal (I have an automatic transmission, I can't recall the last century I used an e-brake). I COULD install an electric setup for the cable if I cared.

My biggest "aha" moment was when I removed most of the dash and examined the oem metal supports/etc that I could utilize. Lot's of options.

Also, I trimmed all the extra support pieces off the horns. Those are from the "old" days were the original idea was to help make horns look more flush with the dash edge/etc. I trimmed those suckers as far as I could and then wrapped the whole horn in grille fabric. If you mount them right, they will be so far back under the dash you won't even really see them (I have to duck under the dash to see the mouths).


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Horns and kick panels are dying because competition formats are going towards 1 seat judging.

Combine a shrinking competition base with a lack and misunderstanding about horns (installation and tuning), and Eric is the only person currently making horns...well, you see where this is heading.

The lack of understanding comes from judges and installers who probably tried horns once or twice back in the day and couldn't get them to work and/or didn't care for the sound.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

If you only had two companies out of a hundred selling 6.5" drivers, how many 6.5" drivers do you think you'd see in general?


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

strohw said:


> If you only had two companies out of a hundred selling 6.5" drivers, how many 6.5" drivers do you think you'd see in general?


Yes, agreed....
but if those 2 particular companies made a 6 1/2 that was more efficient, better transient response etc etc.... I would expect to see people in the stereo world to have them at least a small percentage...


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

As for the Old School Analogs....
Not sayin I haven't had them...
My car... 4 years ago









I will admit I still dig them... Love the computerless interface and the faces people make when they see this in a car is priceless:laugh:


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

I was just surprised at the last California state finals I went to a few months ago (spectator only) I was the only horn car there...

Was really hoping to hear a dialed set of horns


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## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

nextproject said:


> As for the Old School Analogs....
> 
> 
> I will admit I still dig them... Love the computerless interface and the faces people make when they see this in a car is priceless:laugh:


That brings back memories.

I agree with the looks, however I wouldn't trade my Helix for that. No more "RTA, run to trunk, listen, RTA....etc". Got old real quick. My favorite is when the kids "adjusted" the EQ one day.


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

These were on a long cord so when I tuned it they were sitting on my lap or on the passenger seat... Then carefully back into the trunk without touching the sliders...

"Kids adjusted the EQ one day"....:worried::laugh:


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

For myself.......well, I've never heard a horn car that made me have to have a set. Can't pinpoint exactly what I don't like, but it's there, kind of an edge to the upper midrange......and all the horn cars I've heard had it, and I will add a couple of these where very nice horn cars. You'd think being a volume and dynamics nut, I'd be into them, but I've also never heard horns pushed to the levels I regularly push my cones and domes to. Not by any means saying they can't do it, but the best sounding horn cars I've heard were comp cars, and demoed at judging volumes.

I'll also add that much like the kick mounted midrange's slow demise, today's readily available, simple to use, and affordable processing power makes pld almost irrelevant. You don't need damn near perfect pld to get an amazing stage from the drivers seat anymore......


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

kind of opposite to you... I in the past trials with my own car felt the regular tweeters were either too "pretty/polite" sounding or when I pushed them they fatigued me pretty quickly...
This was testing cheap stuff tho... And it was always a low playing tweeter vs a paired mid/tweeter or even (my latest itch to scratch) a point source

I regret that I was way new and had no ear back when I was at Speaker Works all the time... Heard Todd's RX7, even was given the keys to listen to Harry's Acura in the install bay with its fresh tune... Unfortunately the biggest thing I took from them was the fact that no matter how much you turned it up you wanted MORE... No fatigue... As for any other aspect... Couldnt tell you.. I was less than 20 years old and it was early 1990's...
I did not hear the Buick but I probably wouldn't have appreciated it ...

I am actually considering Kick mounted mids as long as I can get the airspace somehow.. I still believe the lower PLD's will sound better-more easily and I like the thought of someday making a decent 2 seater


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Before IASCA really died over here on the east coast, we would have more horn cars at shows than anywhere because then at that time, 90% of the Image Dynamics competition team was on the east coast (pretty ironic). Outside of us, there weren't many/any other cars with horns in them.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

lsm said:


> Traditional speakers cannot provide the same dynamics that horns can period. It's also typically easier to get the imaging right with horns than with a component set. That being said it's not impossible to build a system with traditional speakers that performs well.
> 
> Why don't you see them more?? One reason is they're different and a lot of people stick to what they know. It could be the assumption that they need a lot of EQ'ing to sound good, which is true to a degree but if your building a car at the level you're talking about you're gonna have EQ's anyway... Another reason is that Eric isn't marketing the horns as aggressively now as he was when he was still at Image Dynamics. Car Audio is a 1% sport and prob less than 1% of those people even know about horns. I'd be willing to bet that ID sold way more component sets than horns even though the horns are what made Eric famous.


If you put your drivers in the corner of the dash you'll get about ten decibels of gain. If you're using drivers that have an efficiency in the nineties, you can push it into the 100s this way.

In addition to this, I've found that direct radiators frequently have lower distortion than compression drivers. This is because compression drivers have extremely limited xmax.

Gary Summers' car is as dynamic as any horn car I've heard.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

claydo said:


> For myself.......well, I've never heard a horn car that made me have to have a set. Can't pinpoint exactly what I don't like, but it's there, kind of an edge to the upper midrange......and all the horn cars I've heard had it, and I will add a couple of these where very nice horn cars.


Those are higher order modes, this can be fixed


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Those are higher order modes, this can be fixed


Ok, but I've heard it in every horn car I've heard. A couple of them were very highly regarded cars too with owners very proficient at tuning.......this is why I consider it a trait of the horn more than the tune, but there is always coincidence.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

claydo said:


> Ok, but I've heard it in every horn car I've heard. A couple of them were very highly regarded cars too.......this is why I consider it a trait of the horn more than the tune, but there is always coincidence.


Yes, they're being generated by the horn

You've seen my "homster" thread right?

$5 of PVC and $5 of foam goes a long way to fix this


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## jb4674 (Jan 29, 2015)

I've never been a fan of horns in a car. They have this harsh timbre that I just can't deal with no matter how much they're EQ'd. Add to that their ugly looking form factor and you have a recipe for failed aesthetics and sound in a vehicle. 

Give me a pair of silk tweeters or ribbon tweeters any day and it's simply delightful to hear. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

jb4674 said:


> I've never been a fan of horns in a car. They have this harsh timbre that I just can't deal with no matter how much they're EQ'd. Add to that their ugly looking form factor and you have a recipe for failed aesthetics and sound in a vehicle.
> 
> Give me a pair of silk tweeters or ribbon tweeters any day and it's simply delightful to hear.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Probably not attenuated enough. "Raw" I was indeed in agreement with your statement. However, when I dropped the level down it instantly goes away.

As for form factor: If you can see the horns sitting up you are probably installing them wrong. Mine are so far back that you have to put your head under the dash to see them (not to mention I wrapped them in black grill fabric and trimmed all the "ears" off of them...no one even knows what they are when I show them). Case in point, here is the passenger midbass and horn (and these are FULL size ES horns at that): http://postimg.org/image/5w9ht35c9/


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## jb4674 (Jan 29, 2015)

Freudie2 said:


> Probably not attenuated enough. "Raw" I was indeed in agreement with your statement. However, when I dropped the level down it instantly goes away.
> 
> As for form factor: If you can see the horns sitting up you are probably installing them wrong. Mine are so far back that you have to put your head under the dash to see them (not to mention I wrapped them in black grill fabric and trimmed all the "ears" off of them...no one even knows what they are when I show them). Case in point, here is the passenger midbass and horn (and these are FULL size ES horns at that): http://postimg.org/image/5w9ht35c9/



No offense but, this is exactly the timeless way that horns have been installed in a car. I could immediately see what was under the dash without thinking twice. No matter how much you dress them, you can always tell when a horn is installed in a car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

jb4674 said:


> No offense but, this is exactly the timeless way that horns have been installed in a car. I could immediately see what was under the dash without thinking twice. No matter how much you dress them, you can always tell when a horn is installed in a car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where's the horns?


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Wow!... Thats pretty extreme!
Through the firewall or just up against it?..
This is the most mine have ever been hidden... Lol... NOTHIN like yours!


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Sitting fully upright you could only see the very bottom edge.. Drivers side wasn't visible.
Seem to be having hetter luck with the full bodies but once I install the Rane I will try the minis again since I ortially blame the MS8
Full bodies are visible from even outside the car


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Mic Wallace, did you sell your BMW?

That appears to be a different car.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Yes both my BMW were sold


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I haven't heard your cars, but everything you've done is consistent with what I believe is needed to get great sound with horns. Would love to hear your car sometime.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

My TI was sold to Danno on this forum. He is in WA. My coupe was in midst of a dash rebuild when I sold it basically for parts when we had to move to NC. My TSX will likely not use horns.......for now


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> My TI was sold to Danno on this forum. He is in WA. My coupe was in midst of a dash rebuild when I sold it basically for parts when we had to move to NC. My TSX will likely not use horns.......for now


Hey Mic... 
You obviously know how to build and tune world class car stereos...
Out of curiosity...what type of highs do you plan for the TSX?...
Where will you probably mount them?...


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Type meaning size / material of tweeters
Size of mid to go with them....


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## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

jb4674 said:


> No offense but, this is exactly the timeless way that horns have been installed in a car. I could immediately see what was under the dash without thinking twice. No matter how much you dress them, you can always tell when a horn is installed in a car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I took that picture upside down basically underneath the dash. Much like others have posted, if you install the horns far enough back (i.e. motors touching the firewall/etc) then you can NOT see the horns sitting in either seat. Tell me if you see the horn in this picture: http://s11.postimg.org/6pc4vtu6r/20151028_095457_resized.jpg

I don't need to argue this though. You apparently have your mind set (and don't believe pictures).


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

nextproject said:


> Hey Mic...
> You obviously know how to build and tune world class car stereos...
> Out of curiosity...what type of highs do you plan for the TSX?...
> Where will you probably mount them?...


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/259249-will-8s-race.html

Midrange and Tweeters currently undecided. Hard to find tweeters with 90+db S/N


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/259249-will-8s-race.html
> 
> Midrange and Tweeters currently undecided. Hard to find tweeters with 90+db S/N


Any ol' 3/4" tweeter on a waveguide will be in the mid 90s. ScanSpeak D2008 is nice. I use the SB Acoustics 3/4" because I'm cheap. ($19)


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Any ol' 3/4" tweeter on a waveguide will be in the mid 90s. ScanSpeak D2008 is nice. I use the SB Acoustics 3/4" because I'm cheap. ($19)


no room to do a waveguide. I have a pr of 1 off Tractrix horns that we used in my wifes civic back in 2001 that I have wanted to use in a car since then, but simply dont have room.









Below the mid. Horns were loaded w ID NX30 tweeters. 

ghetto looking install that she finished 3rd at IASCA Finals in Novice class in 2001. Had one of the highest SQ scores


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Mount the waveguide coaxially in front of the midrange. That will take up zero space.

If you don't want to use a waveguide for the tweeter, you could also use an array, like this:









I think a waveguide works better though. If I'm not mistaken, the manufacturer stopped using tweeter arrays and went to a single tweeter in the current version of this speaker. (ME Geithain)


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

90dB tweeters are easy to find.

I have some Hiquphon OW2s at some that are 90dB. Lots of Morel and stuff are. Just depends on your budget and space.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Transducer Lab, N26MG-G

Some nice 95dB tweeters.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> 90dB tweeters are easy to find.
> 
> I have some Hiquphon OW2s at some that are 90dB. Lots of Morel and stuff are. Just depends on your budget and space.


Morel CAT 378 1-1/8" Soft Dome Horn Tweeter

I have a set of these. Best I have heard for a silk on a horn. But I haven't heard the scans , probably similar. However they are breakup mode monsters past 95db  probably not a good match for horns but a good sounding tweet in general. I blew a set of st728s trying to keep up with horns


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