# What seperates a good amp from a not-so-good amp?



## LongArm_Jeep (Apr 17, 2008)

I've always wondered. Obviously there is huge disparity in amplifier prices based on brand names at a particular wattage. What seperates a McIntosh Amp from a JL Audio from a Hifonics or an Audiobahn for instance?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Power 
Reliability 
Cosmetics
Features
Build quality


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Topology


----------



## ViperVin (Mar 15, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Power
> Reliability
> Cosmetics
> Features
> Build quality


x2

plus Customer Service


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> Topology


Care to elaborate?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

What actually determines which one you will like the best , is when it is pushed hard !


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Noisefloor
Matching with the speakers it powers

...and euh, that's about it...

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Power
> Reliability
> Cosmetics
> Features
> Build quality


Oh really?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> Oh really?


Yes really. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?


----------



## LongArm_Jeep (Apr 17, 2008)

easy fellas I'm just trying to get some info here...


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

LongArm_Jeep said:


> easy fellas I'm just trying to get some info here...


It's all in good fun. Some people take the internet too seriously and get their feelings hurt when someone questions their beliefs. Sorry to take your thread off topic. Carry on everyone.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Too me amplifiers are just like everything else in life....seriously 

Do you know the differences between meat, cars, guns, etc..,

What is different between a hamburger and prime rib ?
What is the difference between a Porsche and a Corvette ?
What is the difference between a Colt and a Taurus ?
What is the difference between something that is great and something that is not


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> What is the difference between a Porsche and a Corvette ? *Nothing, they're both crap*
> What is the difference between a Colt and a Taurus ?*Ford and Dodge*
> What is the difference between something that is great and something that is not *$100/hr*


.............


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

Hey A$$hole....whats that sub enclosure in that pic? Is it a hollowed ot log shaped on a lathe and finished?? Looks awesome.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

A8AWD said:


> Hey A$$hole....whats that sub enclosure in that pic? Is it a hollowed ot log shaped on a lathe and finished?? Looks awesome.


I would guess Norh
http://www.norh.com./


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

Very cool....


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Yes really. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?


I didn't know that power, cosmetics and features had anything to do with SOUND and QUALITY..... but hey..... I guess some people rather go for quantity instead of quality

And yes, I know you think me and Isabelle are a pain in the ass because we're going into facts instead of what the ricer majority believes in.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> I didn't know that power, cosmetics and features had anything to do with SOUND and QUALITY..... but hey..... I guess some people rather go for quantity instead of quality
> 
> And yes, I know you think me and Isabelle are a pain in the ass because we're going into facts instead of what the ricer majority believes in.


Lmao

Seriously, just stop, you're embarrassing yourself at this point.


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm surprised you still got an ass left..... Tell me what a shiney blingbling amp does to the sound, tell me what an internal DSP gains over an external DSP other than giving more headache if the amp fails, tell me what use power has if the speakers aren't able to handle it or just don't need it because they're efficient enough to get away with little power on them? And also, by stating that a good amp needs to have power, you are saying an amp with little output is crap, persay?


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

XC-C30 said:


> I didn't know that power, cosmetics and features had anything to do with SOUND and QUALITY..... but hey..... I guess some people rather go for quantity instead of quality
> 
> And yes, I know you think me and Isabelle are a pain in the ass because we're going into facts instead of what the ricer majority believes in.


Are you serious? How can you not understand that power relates to SOUND and QUALITY? Please tell me you were joking. Ever heard of headroom? Features? So a noise gate, balance line adapters, 24db crossovers, and the like have nothing to do with sound quality? If you're like Isabelle, you see very 2 dimensionally. 



ca90ss said:


> Lmao
> 
> Seriously, just stop, you're embarrassing yourself at this point.


Agreed!


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> I'm surprised you still got an ass left..... Tell me what a shiney blingbling amp does to the sound, tell me what an internal DSP gains over an external DSP other than giving more headache if the amp fails, tell me what use power has if the speakers aren't able to handle it or just don't need it because they're efficient enough to get away with little power on them? And also, by stating that a good amp needs to have power, you are saying an amp with little output is crap, persay?


The original poster asked what the differences were between amps. He never said anything about sound quality.


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

Power = clarity when you do not load an amp down to a virtual short. It's called headroom my Belgian friend 

I definately do agree with you about the DSP...

I'll take a flexible amp with endless crossover points and lots of quality power all day...


----------



## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Defining "good" and "not-so-good" would be a helpful start.


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Are you serious? How can you not understand that power relates to SOUND and QUALITY? Please tell me you were joking. Ever heard of headroom? Features? So a noise gate, balance line adapters, 24db crossovers, and the like have nothing to do with sound quality? If you're like Isabelle, you see very 2 dimensionally.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed!


on the headroom part, yes, you're right. As far as slopes go..... ever heard of speaker matching? so it depends on what you need.


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

Perfect example are my Mc's..... Clean sound? absolutely. Good crossovers? Absolutely not, they're worthless to say the least. Heck, even the internals are questionable, using IC's instead of FETS.... But would anyone dare to argue it's a BAD amp? Don't think so.


----------



## ViperVin (Mar 15, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> So a noise gate, balance line adapters, 24db crossovers, and the like have nothing to do with sound quality?


I am curious, how do 24dB crossovers play into sound quality?


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

So an amp that had selectable 6, 12, 18, 24, 48, db/octave slopes would work well for you to aid in speaker matching and in-car acoustics? Me too


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

XC-C30 said:


> But would anyone dare to argue it's a BAD amp? Don't think so.


I wouldn't call them bad but I would argue that there's nothing special about them either with the exception of the MCC602tm.


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

ViperVin said:


> I am curious, how do 24dB crossovers play into sound quality?


Depending on speaker placement and vehicle acooustics it MAY work...crossover slope depends on many things.


----------



## ViperVin (Mar 15, 2008)

A8AWD said:


> Depending on speaker placement and vehicle acooustics it MAY work...crossover slope depends on many things.


But is he saying that an amp with 24dB xover versus an amp with 12dB would sound better?


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ViperVin said:


> I am curious, how do 24dB crossovers play into sound quality?


Rolling off a steeper slope can help keep a driver bandpassed in it's own range more tightly than with a 18 or 12db slope.


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> I wouldn't call them bad but I would argue that there's nothing special about them either with the exception of the MCC602tm.


Nothing really special, no. But to me it does seem that nowadays we're getting spoiled/overwhealmed with all sorts of features and bling and all kinds of standards and things that are brought up as being whisdome..... While 10-15 years ago things worked just as well, not having all the features and bling of today.....


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ViperVin said:


> But is he saying that an amp with 24dB xover versus an amp with 12dB would sound better?


Not what I said, but It can offer more control, which can in turn sound better.


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

XC-C30 "Nothing really special, no. But to me it does seem that nowadays we're getting spoiled/overwhealmed with all sorts of features and bling and all kinds of standards and things that are brought up as being whisdome..... While 10-15 years ago things worked just as well, not having all the features and bling of today....."



^^^^^^^^^^AGREED.


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Not what I said, but It can offer more control, which *can* in turn sound better.


indeed, but not persay. as said, it depends on so many things. But as a rule of thumb, yes.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

So then it can have a bearing on sq, agreed? I never said anything about it being better than 12db, but you asked how features could impact SOUND and Quality, right?


----------



## ViperVin (Mar 15, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Not what I said, but It can offer more control, which can in turn sound better.


gotcha. makes sense now.


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

agreed.... partially Because it isn't a definate statement. In one case a shallow slope might be needed in order to to avoid gaps, in another case you might want a shallower slope to avoid your driver from breaking up or to keep it under control. Still that is a feature that doesn't have to be built in, because depending on what you need, you might want a particular amp for the sound, but totally different x-overs might be needed in order to get the best out of your system.


----------



## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

This thread sure has spun out of control. You guys are like off on a tangent arguing a portion of the OP's q ..


----------



## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

OgreDave said:


> This thread sure has spun out of control.


All in 1 hour...lol


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

It got on track again, I think. Some in-depth arguing can only benefit the Op to see things clearer. Things that don't seem to matter at first might make a big difference in the end.


----------



## LongArm_Jeep (Apr 17, 2008)

I should have more narrowly tailored my question! I am interested in learning if more expensive amps sound better, what the technical reasons are for that, and how to select a good amp for the money.

Is there more to it than watts/dollars?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

LongArm_Jeep said:


> I am interested in learning if more expensive amps sound better


No, they don't.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

sorry. my bad


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

Depends on what you define as expensive. Mainly you pay for the name with overexpensive gear. But it has to be said that a $100(SRP) can never sound as good as a $500(SRP) one. And yes, I'm aware there are companies that benefit from their name to put on a high price-tag. But you just can't expect a cheap amp to be up to par with an amp that's a bit more expensive. A rockwood/pyle/caliber/lanzar is no audison/steg/PPI/MMATS.

Just a little nuance not trying to get into a discussion again


----------



## John Swanberg (Mar 17, 2008)

A good amp is one that a) you can afford, b) can drive your speakers to whatever volume you listen to, and c) makes your speakers sound good to you. Are there differences between amplifiers in terms of how they make your speakers sound? sure there are, classes, topologies, parts all can make differences. Can you hear them? good question, some say yes, some say no way. I know that I can tell the difference between a solid state, a cheap tube integrated and expensive tube mono-block amps on my home speakers (Magnepan, Meadowlark, and Gallo). I enjoy all three, but there are differences. The differences are not so much in emphasizing/de-emphasizing any particular area from high to low, but more in how the soundstage is organized, the "palpability" (3d v. 2d) of the musicians, the layering of the stage (height, depth and width of the sound stage), the impact of the music, the lack of veiling of the music and how forward the center image is. I have only had jl slash amps on my dyn's in the car, so I can't tell you if I can hear any differences in the car. I have had RF, MTX, Sony and JL. Each drove different speakers, and as far as I am concerned, the speakers contributed a lot more to whatever particular "sound" I heard than the amplifiers. Listen to as many products as you can, then buy what you sounds good to you. If it is cheap, good for you; if you can only be satisfied with a Milbert, Sinfoni, etc., start saving. Enjoy the journey to musical nirvana, but remember, it is a journey, not a destination, Regards, John


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Well-put, John.

One thing I am beginning to realize is that for me, the "perfect sound" is an elusive element in the hobby of car audio. I have owned everything from an old Pioneer DEH-P2000 and a pair of Fosgate Fanatic X components run of a 4x25w Sherwood amp (my very first install) to a CDA-7998, Type X components, PPI PCX amps, and everything in between. Hell, in the last 12 months alone, my components list is the following:

Alpine SPX-17PRO
MB Quart QSD-216
Boston Pro60
Pioneer Premier TS-C720PRS (going on my 3rd set now)
Focal 165KF

It's been ridiculous. But I love hearing new things, and seeing what sounds like what. After being on this forum for awhile, though, I am beginning to learn that the install is equally, if not more important, than the equipment selected. Despite what your tastes may be, you approach the point of diminishing returns. While a $400 component set may sound head and shoulders better than a $100 component set, a $4000 set of separates might sound a bit better than a $1500 set, but probably not worth the $2500 extra, unless you have money to play with. The most important thing is to draw as much information from this forum and its members as you can. Use the search function, ask questions, post threads such as this one and hope they don't spiral out of control, and absorb everything you can. Focus on a well-executed install, demo as much of the equipment as you can, and be patient with making tuning adjustments instead of expecting it to sound just right the first time you crank it on. 

As far as what makes a Sinfoni better than a Jensen, etc, you'll find that a lot of very high end companies hand build their amps in house, rather than being manufactured on an assembly line in China. This tends to allow for more quality control. But you pay for it. A LOT. And to some people, that is worth it. To me, depends... I'll sift through the classifieds and wait for a good deal to come along.  The quality of components used and the designs of the amps themselves (circuitry, etc) are typically better with higher end equipment. This is not to say that the run-of-the-mill stuff won't satisfy 95% of listeners; I'm just pointing out the differences. Hopefully that helps answer at least part of your question.

Mike


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

John Swanberg said:


> A good amp is one that a) you can afford, b) can drive your speakers to whatever volume you listen to, and c) makes your speakers sound good to you. Are there differences between amplifiers in terms of how they make your speakers sound? sure there are, classes, topologies, parts all can make differences. Can you hear them? good question, some say yes, some say no way. I know that I can tell the difference between a solid state, a cheap tube integrated and expensive tube mono-block amps on my home speakers (Magnepan, Meadowlark, and Gallo). I enjoy all three, but there are differences. The differences are not so much in emphasizing/de-emphasizing any particular area from high to low, but more in how the soundstage is organized, the "palpability" (3d v. 2d) of the musicians, the layering of the stage (height, depth and width of the sound stage), the impact of the music, the lack of veiling of the music and how forward the center image is. I have only had jl slash amps on my dyn's in the car, so I can't tell you if I can hear any differences in the car. I have had RF, MTX, Sony and JL. Each drove different speakers, and as far as I am concerned, the speakers contributed a lot more to whatever particular "sound" I heard than the amplifiers. Listen to as many products as you can, then buy what you sounds good to you. If it is cheap, good for you; if you can only be satisfied with a Milbert, Sinfoni, etc., start saving. Enjoy the journey to musical nirvana, but remember, it is a journey, not a destination, Regards, John


Very well said, John !!


----------



## Powers (Apr 10, 2008)

I don't know every aspect of amps, but i've been taught that distortion and power output are what seperate the big boys (McIntosh, JL Audio, Crossfire, etc) from ****ty brands like BOSS.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Yes, as far as [where does distortion become apparent in the power band ].

I think that what is similar about amps, might be worth asking ?

Mosfets, capacitors, power supplies, some have fans others do not, heatsinks, etc..,

Now , can a fan on a cheaply made amp do anything to make it sound better?

What is "Triple Darlington", and why do amps that use it cost so much?

Why do Linear Power amps sound so good and cost so much, all they have on them is a gain ?

What is entry level ?

What is Top End ?

What is mid level ?

If these were subwoofers [ entry { Mid } high ], can you hear a difference ?


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Yes, as far as [where does distortion become apparent in the power band ].
> 
> I think that what is similar about amps, might be worth asking ?
> 
> ...


So true. There's so much difference in the quality of parts being used that it will affect the overall sound (although I know people that say an amp doesn't affect sound at all).


----------



## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

all babel with zero references to back up statements.

publish this type of information if it's your own. let get this place organized.

*-fixtion*


----------



## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

So you're saying it doesn't matter what components are being used huh? So I guess there's no difference whatsoever? And I also guess research has never been done, so manufacturers just put something together and put whatever price-tag on it huh?

Come on.... If you don't know what you're talking about or don't have anything interesting to add, keep out will ya


----------



## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

XC-C30 said:


> So you're saying it doesn't matter what components are being used huh? So I guess there's no difference whatsoever? And I also guess research has never been done, so manufacturers just put something together and put whatever price-tag on it huh?
> 
> Come on.... If you don't know what you're talking about or don't have anything interesting to add, keep out will ya


where did you get these assumptions based on what i wrote? you're arguing with yourself.

i'm only inviting everyone to open up a few books, or site the research from which they speak from. simple. organized. non babel, but founded statements.

also, it seems anything "interesting to add" to you means "arguing" point of views on unfounded assumptions, being they aren't sited.

*-fixtion*


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

_Re: What separates a good amp from a not-so-good amp?
_
Marketing

How much Kool Aid have you consumed?


----------



## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

How about quality control, tighter tolerances?


----------



## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

BEAVER said:


> How about quality control, tighter tolerances?


i think that's one of the biggest things, beaver.

to me a good amp is one that is well built, and does what it claims without issue. if it can play 20-20k with < 1% thd and doesn't have overheating issues, or problems with things breaking or falling off, then it's a good amp.

i was talking to someone the other day and i was telling them that i've listened to pg ti, mb quart, old school infinity, and alpine mrv amps and couldn't tell a difference in sound. the only thing i could tell was the difference in power.

so for me a good amp is one that gives me the power i want without having issues. once i find that in several amps, aesthetics and cost help me decide which to get.


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I have worked on a few amps, but not a ton. The largest difference I see is reliability in electronic and mostly physical build quality. The cheap amps break from vibration, in very cheap amps components can blow. I just looked at one that had two PS in it, one side hit the sink when the factory put it together...broke the legs off 1 of 2 rectifiers and half the power fets. This amp never had good power on that channel starting day one. It works pretty good with everything fixed. I've also looked at the new alpines made in China too, and they look all machine made with no issues like this that I saw. 

As far as sound, every amp has a signature but I doubt the sound is that much different. I think once you get to a well known brand name amp sound quality should be pretty good. You would have to buy a pretty cheap amp to hear a difference for most people, and today most people EQ the amp's sound to their liking anyway. Is there a sound quality difference in a McIntosh and a Lanzar Opti? I don't know, but I bet it is not much if any...or not much you could discern in a car. Today the quality of electronics is so good that building a cheap amp with great sound is like GM or Ford building a kids wagon. You need expensive equipment to 'hear' the difference because the quality has far surpassed human hearing. Now it is still people designing the amp, so they can still sound different. Many amps are the same design they have used for years, just scaled up/down to power they want and incorporating newer more capable components. They had a good design so why change? New class d/t/etc are different and relatively new to amplifiers.

Amps do go into distortion differently, if you are going to play them that hard. Cheap amps tend to do it more gradually in my experience while better amps break up faster at the limit. Some great amps use cheap parts, it all depends on the design. Some newer amps like to use less transistors that are more expensive parts, and carry a lot more current, because that makes the amp smaller. In the end they both do the same job.

So to sum up, I see very cheap amps having build quality issues. Very cheap to budget amps having reliability and even some mid range amps breaking a lot compared to older amps. Many new amps are harder to repair also. Amps like Linear Power were a well built and expensive amp, they had a tried and proven design that worked. That is why they are still valuable today, but some do seem to be overly nostalgic. I doubt they are any better in sound quality to a reasonably good new amp and could be worse. Components in old amps can go bad over time but can be replaced easier. In general, quality in build, features, and performance should trend better for more expensive amps, but even cheap amps can sound good. I mean come on, you can get a whole amp on one chip today with great sound for only a few dollars. A better amp will hold up for many years, have quality features, a good warranty, and be capable for its rating.

On the other hand one could guess how many people try to run a bolt amp at 1 ohm compared to abusing an expensive unit. That said more expensive amps are often more capable of running low ohm loads and stuff like that. Transistors/etc are often less stressed in quality amps so they do not blow as easily, and cheap amps may use cheaper parts. A better amp may have better protection circuits and all those things.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Its all very subjective in my opinion. 

I think that my Aura RPM's are incredible and I keep going back to them after having used Helix, PG M series, eD's and PPI's. Were these good amps, yes, but they weren't what I was looking for. On the other hand my Aura's always do what they say, they are reliable, they were only $75 each, can more than give my speakers all they can handle power wise and NEVER shut down. Oh and they make my speakers sound great. What more could you ask from a "good" amp??


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> If you're like Isabelle, you see very 2 dimensionally.


And what have I to do with this? The only thing I said in this thread was my answer to the question of the topicstarter. All the rest I said in other threads are completely off-topic in this thread and are nothing but my opinions. 

How the **** could you tell that I have a 2-dimensional view on things, you don't even know me and I'm pretty sure I'd like to keep it that way 

Since YOU pulled me into *this* discussion, I'll be happy to agree with Xenia...

-If there is anybody here that can give a good reason why a bling bling design is better for the sound quality, I'd be happy to re-polish my old Gennies before I throw them in my trunk. 
-If there is anybody here that can give a good reason why having 1001 features on the amplifier itself improves sound quality, I'd be happy to order/build some bigger casings for my amps and build my AC EQX and 4XS inside them.
-If there is anybody here that can give a good reason (screaming your eardrums in pieces is NO good reason, since we're talking about sound *quality) why the hell you should have hundreds of watts on speakers, I'd be happy to... ask them to sponsor me for a couple of Genesis Dual Mono Extremes 

I think the only of the 3 'Ifs' that will have response, will be the one about power, and the first excuse will be headroom... Guess why I think it's stupid to prefer low impedance, low efficiency (measured at 2.83V since the output voltage of most amps is a constant value at different loads!!!) to get maximum power out of an amp, while you can use 4 or 8 ohm drivers and have plenty of headroom left because most amps are minimum 2ohm/ch. stable!

greetz,
A girl with a '2-dimensional' sight, aka Isabelle


----------



## ~thematt~ (Sep 14, 2007)

Amps that sound the same, measure the same. Amps sound different, measure differently, and _that sound can be replicated_.

There is a limit, where build quality and tolerance is a given. After that, you're buying for cosmetics and the name.

Anyone who purchases amps based on their sound characteristic, has too much money and is too easily parted with it.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I used to have Steg QM amps on a Focal 165V2 - Dynaudio MD100 combination and it sounded like **** compared to the same set in the same car on Kenwood amps or the same set in another car on Audio-System amps.

There is no way you could make a warm amp sound fresh or vica versa. You can tune frequency response, but you cannot tune the character of a system that heavily without modding the gear itself.

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## ~thematt~ (Sep 14, 2007)

You can, and it has been substantially proven time and time again. 

Not only do you modify frequency response, but modifying gain, distortion, noise levels and output impedance (or multiples of) will very certainly give you a 'unique signature' from another amplifier. To the point where the differences are indistinguishable to the human ear.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

And how exactly would you modify an amplifiers distortion, noise level or output impedance without modifying the amp itself?

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> The largest difference I see is reliability in electronic and mostly physical build quality.
> 
> Amps do go into distortion differently, Amps like Linear Power were a well built and expensive amp, they had a tried and proven design that worked.
> 
> That is why they are still valuable today, but some do seem to be overly nostalgic. That said more expensive amps are often more capable of running low ohm loads and stuff like that.


Handmade amps , enclosures, etc.., "For a Handmade Sound"

LP's have a gain, that's it !! It is one component in a string of components that make up a system.

Most of your newer amps last as long as the Linear Power stickers 

They were and are worth the money...Period !

Higher pressure [voltage],lower flow rate [current],play them into higher impedances !FTW


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Candisa said:


> I used to have Steg QM amps on a Focal 165V2 - Dynaudio MD100 combination and it sounded like **** compared to the same set in the same car on Kenwood amps or the same set in another car on Audio-System amps.
> 
> There is no way you could make a warm amp sound fresh or vica versa. You can tune frequency response, but you cannot tune the character of a system that heavily without modding the gear itself.



The Kenwood amplifiers actually sound better than lot of the other amplifiers in the similar category and price point.

There are amplifiers in which you can change the sonic signature like TRU Technology Billets & Zed Audio by changing the op amps in the preamplifier section.

To me in the amplifiers headroom matters if it is combined with better sonic signature and detail its even better. Problem is in todays world of car audio its very hard to find amplifiers with big power supplies and loads of headroom.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

If it is the right color and has lighting, I buy it [doesn't matter who makes them ]


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Autophile: I have to agree with you, dumping those Kenwoods for a set of Steg QM's was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made (an other one was letting my ex-installer tell me what to buy)...

There are indeed a few amps that are easily customizable to create the sound you want, but unfortunately TRU is very very overpriced here in Europe and I think Zed audio isn't even available over here.

I think I made the right decision dumping those Stegs for a set of Genesis amps, especially for the price I gave for them. 
I paid 850 Euros for a Dual Mono, a Four Channel AND a Stereo 100. 
Current prices over here are:
- Dual Mono: 699 Euros
- Stereo 100: 449 Euros
- Four Channel: 849 Euros

Genesis Absolute speakers or the Scanspeaks that they are based on were a bit out of my budget, so I went for all Peerless drivers. I guess that combination should match just fine 

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Candisa said:


> And how exactly would you modify an amplifiers distortion, noise level or output impedance without modifying the amp itself?
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


Well I'd say if it's playing "dirty" then the first step would be to give it a good old fashioned amp bath. 

It's not the factors themselves, it's the audibility of them. Your argument is valid up until the point when the human ear is involved and then things get very messy. What you hear and what you perceive are not the same. 

If I swapped the board on a Boss amp with Steg amp and didn't tell you, you'd never say it sounded like a Steg no mater what speakers it powered.

_Re: What separates a good amp from a not-so-good amp? _

The physical distance between them, for sure.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSS-AUDIO-2-CH...ryZ39732QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Max Bridged Power (4 Ohm) 1000W x 1 
Signal-To-Noise Ratio 105 DB 
THD 0.01% 

If you power your tweeters responsibly this will never distort[under $50.00 bucks ].

Hell you could get one for each side and still not crack $100.00

That will help keep the crosstalk down to each side !


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Signal to noise ratio: 105dB... full-range, A-weighted? Doubt it...
THD: 0.01%... At full power? At 2x1W? Probably at 2x0.1W...



greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Candisa said:


> Autophile: I have to agree with you, dumping those Kenwoods for a set of Steg QM's was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made (an other one was letting my ex-installer tell me what to buy)...
> 
> There are indeed a few amps that are easily customizable to create the sound you want, but unfortunately TRU is very very overpriced here in Europe and I think Zed audio isn't even available over here.
> 
> ...


Genesis Series III are fine amplifiers. You have made the right decison as it is very hard to beat S3's when it comes to musicality. Genesis Dual Mono and Dual Mono Extremes have edge in sound compared to the other Series III stereo and multichannels because of Burr Brown op amps and dual mono design.

We have a Honda CRv running on the following system :

DRZ 9255 - SEAS Lotus Reference - SEAS Lotus SW250 X 3 - Four Channel (Running Tweeters & Rears) - Dual Mono (Running the Mids) - Monoblock (Running the subs).

The car sounds out of the world after upgrading the amplifiers to Genesis Series III. Earlier the car was running on amplifiers by so called one of the top & highly respected manufacturer. The difference in the sound is huge.

TRU Billets are nice they have big power supplies and strong output stage & the options of upgrading the preamp section. They do have an edge over the Genesis when it comes to headroom and driver control.

Cannot comment on the sound of Peerless speakers as I have not used them. However Rainbow Profi's are very nice range of speakers and subwoofers especially the Kickbass version.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

if you were to swap my xenon amps out with my old memphis amps i'd sure notice a difference. the memphis amps sounded smoother than the pg's but the pg's are more dynamic. the headroom is definately there. if i competed memphis mclass would be in my truck.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I think my Gennies are a little bit different than the current version.
The Dual Mono and the Four Channel is made in 1997. I didn't get a test sheet with the Stereo 100, but I bought it together with the Dual Mono, so I guess it's also from 1997.

My set-up will be:
Mids and tweeters: Genesis Four Channel on Peerless HDS tweeters and Peerless HDS Exclusive 5.5" midwoofers
Midbass: Genesis Dual Mono on 2 pairs of Peerless SLS 8" woofers
Sub: Genesis Stereo 100 on a Peerless 12" XXLS sub combined with 2 Peerless 10" 400gr. XLS PR's

All drivers except for the sub are 8 ohm, the sub is 4 ohm, I'll connect 2 midbasswoofers in parallel per channel on the DM.

Maybe I'll sell the Stereo 100 if I find a Dual Mono for a nice price, but I guess it will suffice for now.

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Candisa said:


> I think my Gennies are a little bit different than the current version.
> The Dual Mono and the Four Channel is made in 1997. I didn't get a test sheet with the Stereo 100, but I bought it together with the Dual Mono, so I guess it's also from 1997.
> 
> My set-up will be:
> ...


Genesis amplifiers has been revised a lot since 1997.

I would suggest, use the four channel for Mids & tweeters, stereo 100 for the midbass & dual mono for the subwoofer till you don't buy the second dual mono which you can use on the midbasses.

I personally don't like passive radiators. You can always try the XXLs in the sealed enclosure as it will offer you more speed & attack.

The problem is the 8 ohm impedance of the front stage, reduces the power from the amplifiers.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Autophile said:


> Genesis amplifiers have been revised a lot since 1997.
> 
> Use the Four Channel for Mids & tweeters, stereo 100 for the midbass & dual mono for the subwoofer till you don't buy the second dual mono which you can use on the midbasses.
> 
> ...


I was planning to experiment to check if the sub or the midbasswoofers need the power of the DM the most.
Those Peerless drivers are pretty efficient, so I shouldn't have trouble with the lower power output of the amps.

I'm building a box for that XXLS + PR's at the moment and I've put already a lot of effort into it, so I'll see how it will sound. The box I'm building at the moment gave me the curve I liked the most in WinISD, I like my sub going deep as hell. It only has to play up to +-50Hz since I'll have 2 pairs of 8" midbasswoofers up front 

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Candisa said:


> I was planning to experiment to check if the sub or the midbasswoofers need the power of the DM the most.
> I'm building a box for that XXLS + PR's at the moment and I've put already a lot of effort into it, so I'll see how it will sound. The box I'm building at the moment gave me the curve I liked the most in WinISD, I like my sub going deep as hell. It only has to play up to +-50Hz since I'll have 2 pairs of 8" midbasswoofers up front
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


Since you are already working around passive radiators the sub section is more efficient. You can always try stereo 100 on the subwoofer and use dual mono for the 8" mids for more power in 8 ohm impedance.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

The midbass section will run in 4 ohm per channel since I'm running 2 8ohm midbasswoofers in parallel per side, but the efficiency of the midbasswoofers is a bit low compared to the sub and the rest of the system:
Tweeters: 93dB/2.83V/m
Mids: 88.2dB/2.83V/m
Midbass: 87.2dB/2.83V/m
Sub: 90.3dB/2.83V/m

And you have to know that my mids and tweeters will be mounted on-axis on the dashboard, the subbox will be mounted between the C-pilars, playing to the windshield and the midbasswoofers will be mounted IB way down in the doors, maybe slightly angled, but far from on-axis.

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Candisa said:


> The midbass section will run in 4 ohm per channel since I'm running 2 8ohm midbasswoofers in parallel per side, but the efficiency of the midbasswoofers is a bit low compared to the sub and the rest of the system:
> Tweeters: 93dB/2.83V/m
> Mids: 88.2dB/2.83V/m
> Midbass: 87.2dB/2.83V/m
> ...


Looking at the efficiency specs of the drivers.

Dual Mono is better off on the midbass. Since you are using PR with the subwoofer and the subwoofer is incabin, use stereo 100 bridged to run the subwoofer.

Two miranges per side and 4 ohm final impedance will compensate the lesser efficiency of each driver and also they are in close proximity to the listener along with on axis placement.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

That's what I tought exactly, happy to know an expert thinks the same way about my system 

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Candisa said:


> That's what I tought exactly, happy to know an expert thinks the same way about my system
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


I am no expert. Just have little bit of knowledge and experience .


----------



## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I can't believe I passed up the Dual Mono for $375 on here!!!! 

*kicks own ass*


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Mooble said:


> I can't believe I passed up the Dual Mono for $375 on here!!!!
> 
> *kicks own ass*


Thats a miss. Should have complemented your system well. Your a/d/s is also nice.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Mooble said:


> I can't believe I passed up the Dual Mono for $375 on here!!!!
> 
> *kicks own ass*


there's plenty of good ones popping up on heredon't know about the genesis twin mono but the dls twin mono is a current hog according to unpredicatbleacts. he said it sure ran his arc flatline nicely though.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

peter-what's your personal opinion on the phoenix gold xenon amps? they're the best all around that i've run myself but just wondering what your take is on them. when i retire them i intend on their replacements being a huge upgrade.


----------



## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> there's plenty of good ones popping up on heredon't know about the genesis twin mono but the dls twin mono is a current hog according to unpredicatbleacts. he said it sure ran his arc flatline nicely though.


They are current hogs for sure. An A3 (dual mono) and an A4 would draw about 200 amps at full power. I already have dimming lights as it is. I think that would wipe me out, but I still want one.


----------



## Gunbir (Jul 17, 2006)

Autophile said:


> I am no expert. Just have little bit of knowledge and experience


Hey I'm the expert. He just knows what I've taught him...


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

I am not Mr. Peter Lufrano, hillbilly. His handle is "autofile". I am from India. However I represent Genesis in India along with the other brands mentioned below.


----------



## Autophile (Nov 10, 2007)

Gunbir said:


> Hey I'm the expert. He just knows what I've taught him...


Yes you are damn right .


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Being a little old school myself I know for sure most amps have a color to their sound. It may or may not be EQ'd out, I never tried as I prefer the least amount of EQ I can use unless I am using DSP. Back in the day if you could get the right sounding amp/speaker combo you were golden, it would yield the least distortion and cleanest sound.

I have no way to test power on an amp, but I can tell you some of the cheap amps put out fairly well. I had some of the intake audiobahns and was impressed given their cost. I tested them like any other amp and they sounded clean and powerful, went loud. I just had an insignia and if all the parts are hooked up in them, they work well too. Have not used in a car though, not yet but plan on testing a few. 

The difference I see most is lack of durability, the cheap amps tend to fall apart. I'm just saying given the cost, you should not imply they sound bad until you try one as sound is not much of an issue with cheap amps. The issue is how long will it work, are all the parts soldered into it, did they assemble it right, are the filters any good, will the knobs/terminals/lights fall off it in a month.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hillbilly, I'm not called 'Peter', that would be a bit strange, but I'll answer your question anyway: those Xenon amps are damn good!

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Candisa said:


> Hillbilly, I'm not called 'Peter', that would be a bit strange, but I'll answer your question anyway: those Xenon amps are* damn good!*
> 
> greetz,
> Isabelle


Ok, wait a sec here...hold up there, lassy.  Is *damn good* another, separate category above *good*, or is it a relative grading _within _the *good *category?? 

hehe...


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

'Damn good' is the border between pretty good and breath-taking 

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Power
> Reliability
> Cosmetics
> Features
> Build quality


Agree



~thematt~ said:


> Amps that sound the same, measure the same. Amps sound different, measure differently, and _that sound can be replicated_.
> 
> There is a limit, where build quality and tolerance is a given. After that, you're buying for cosmetics and the name.
> 
> Anyone who purchases amps based on their sound characteristic, has too much money and is too easily parted with it.


Well said. Don't forget two *IDENTICAL* amps can be made to sound different too. A simple turn of the gain knob can do this.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32486


----------



## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Hear any difference?
Answer this thread

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34444


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Candisa said:


> And what have I to do with this? The only thing I said in this thread was my answer to the question of the topicstarter. All the rest I said in other threads are completely off-topic in this thread and are nothing but my opinions.
> 
> How the **** could you tell that I have a 2-dimensional view on things, you don't even know me and I'm pretty sure I'd like to keep it that way
> 
> ...



You are beyond ridiculous. Every single argument you ever make always revolves around efficiency/sensitivity. You seem to take this one spec as the end all be all for what determines what driver sounds/works best. I could cite multiple threads where this is the majority of your interjection. I have some 10ohm delco 6x9's that are extremely efficient, but they sound like poop. They're efficient though... lol 

I never said bling bling makes an amp sound better, that would be ridiculous. Akin to saying that a car drives better because it has nicer paint. Features absolutely can make an amp sound better, IE: an amp with a balanced input will most likely have a lower noise floor than an amp without. Just because LP for instance, has just a gain control, does not mean the amp has no "features". A larger power supply for more headroom can be considered a feature. Would you say that has no bearing on SQ?

I believe that excellent SQ can be acheived in many ways, and that there are many roads you can take to acheive the goal of SQ. You seem to think there is only one road to take, and if it's not yours, it's wrong. Efficient speakers and diy drivers are the only way acceptable to you. Anyone who buys a prepackaged set of components is making a mistake. Dyn's are not good speakers because they aren't as efficient as some DIY drivers, and their hella expensive. Expensive drivers that are inneficient must automatically sound bad to you. Maybe you think i'm out of line with some of these comments, but I have yet to let your's get me upset enough to drop "F" bombs... lol. Don't take any of this so seriously, it's just a forum. (Keep repeating that to yourself and you'll relax a little)


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Who the **** are you to call me ridiculous? As I said, I don't know you, and I'd love to keep it that way.

-I never said inefficient drivers sound bad, I just said it's something to keep in mind when you have low power amps. In the range I'll use them and with the power I'll put on them, a set of Peerless HDS Nomexes would be the better choice for me with their efficiency of allmost 90, but I chose to go with the SLS's that only have an efficiency of about 87 
-A good large power supply isn't a feature, it's a specification, a part of it's design, it wouldn't work without a power supply. A feature is something that is added to the actual amplifier, like crossovers, an equalizer, a DSP...
-I heard high power SQ systems with low efficiency drivers, I heard low power SQ systems with high efficiency drivers, I heard excellent subless installs, I heard excellent 5-way setups, I heard excellent pure passive cars, I heard excellent system that are processed the **** out of them, I heard systems that only achieve their nice sound by angling, building qualities and matching gear... And hell, I never said Dynaudio drivers sounded bad...

I never heard there are people that can type without knowing how to read, I'm laughing my ass of at the moment. Thank you very much, I'll start to work now and you made my day perfect! 

greetz,
Isabelle


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Candisa said:


> Who the **** are you to call me ridiculous? As I said, I don't know you, and I'd love to keep it that way.
> 
> -I never said inefficient drivers sound bad, I just said it's something to keep in mind when you have low power amps. In the range I'll use them and with the power I'll put on them, a set of Peerless HDS Nomexes would be the better choice for me with their efficiency of allmost 90, but I chose to go with the SLS's that only have an efficiency of about 87
> -A good large power supply isn't a feature, it's a specification, a part of it's design, it wouldn't work without a power supply. A feature is something that is added to the actual amplifier, like crossovers, an equalizer, a DSP...
> ...


Glad I brightened your day! lol. 

I didn't ask you to state everything you had heard as proof of your "knowledge". I've been in the industry for a very long time myself, and I don't feel the need to justify my arguments by stating such. 

You constantly state efficiency ratings in almost every thread you post in. This leads me to believe that you live and die by this spec. If I cared enough, i'd find a bunch of the threads you've posted in and quote you, but you're not really worth the time. 

I too would like to keep "not knowing" you. lol


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hmmm, -taking a speclist-, let's see, what specs do I find important to look at...
Hmmm, seems I find all the major specs important and efficiency is pretty low on my list......


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Candisa said:


> Who the **** are you to call me ridiculous? As I said, I don't know you, and I'd love to keep it that way.
> 
> -A good large power supply isn't a feature, it's a specification, a part of it's design, it wouldn't work without a power supply. A feature is something that is added to the actual amplifier, like crossovers, an equalizer, a DSP...
> 
> ...


Comprehension is not a prerequisite


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)




----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Candisa said:


> Hmmm, -taking a speclist-, let's see, what specs do I find important to look at...
> Hmmm, seems I find all the major specs important and efficiency is pretty low on my list......


Forgive me for saying so, but it really doesn't seem that way. 



a$$hole said:


> Comprehension is not a prerequisite


I hate to keep straying further O/T, but would you like to fill me in on where my comprehension skills are suspect?


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> If it is the right color and has lighting, I buy it [doesn't matter who makes them ]


It has to be HUGE too!


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

fcarpio said:


> It has to be HUGE too!


I just put a PS in a blitz with neon lights!! Also have an ultra linear 2400 or whatever big long thing I hope to get running soon. I'll be testing them soon...zooom zooom I'm not sure if this repair hobby has a point, but fun just the same. Lets see, I'll compare them to a rubicon 302 that is half the size, hows that? lol.

And I love efficient drivers, going to try to run 99db subs soon. It can be hard to make them sound good, especially without DSP. If so, out they go.


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Originally Posted by Candisa View Post
> 
> Who the **** are you to call me ridiculous? As I said, I don't know you, and I'd love to keep it that way.
> 
> ...


This is starting to seem like sexual tension to me.. It starts like this and then leads to Hot Monkey Sex.. I should know, I used to call a certain girl a *****, right to her face, everytime I saw her. Told her repeatedly that she wasn't welcome and that she was stinking up the joint, that she needed to haul ass, her and her skanky friends. She would tell me that if I were any shorter, I would disappear, and that my breath would make for an excellent dirty bomb. This was before we were actually introduced. Then we got to know each other.. The rest is history..

Just an observation.. Sorry for hashing an old thread, couldn't resist..

I'll close by being two dimensional. "Hey Isabelle, are you like... Hot??"


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

lust4sound said:


> I'll close by being two dimensional. "Hey Isabelle, are you like... Hot??"


You're wasting your time...


Candisa said:


> I'm lesbian


----------



## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

lust4sound said:


> This is starting to seem like sexual tension to me.. It starts like this and then leads to Hot Monkey Sex.. I should know, I used to call a certain girl a *****, right to her face, everytime I saw her. Told her repeatedly that she wasn't welcome and that she was stinking up the joint, that she needed to haul ass, her and her skanky friends. She would tell me that if I were any shorter, I would disappear, and that my breath would make for an excellent dirty bomb. This was before we were actually introduced. Then we got to know each other.. The rest is history..
> 
> Just an observation.. Sorry for hashing an old thread, couldn't resist..
> 
> I'll close by being two dimensional. "Hey Isabelle, are you like... Hot??"



My definition of what separates a great amp from an average amp is a great amp will:

1) sound effortless like you have a mountain of torque at your disposal
2) have more midbass/midrange energy (some amps simply are thin in the midrange despite putting out "4.150 watts", hint hint  )
3) lots of headroom
4) gets the sound more into the cabin and less "in the speakers"

In a home, point #4 translates to greater separation, and a better ability to make the speakers disappear.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

air under the heat transfer slug  it then causes distortion to play through your speakers { ,< sonic nirvana }if you are running a PDX sometimes the process is so new the people trying to implement it can have problems[ posted by envisionelec ].


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

ca90ss 506670 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by lust4sound View Post
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO!!


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

LongArm_Jeep said:


> I've always wondered. Obviously there is huge disparity in amplifier prices based on brand names at a particular wattage. What seperates a McIntosh Amp from a JL Audio from a Hifonics or an Audiobahn for instance?


The price


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ViperVin said:


> But is he saying that an amp with 24dB xover versus an amp with 12dB would sound better?


I love the x-overs on my Linear Power amps  [ seamless transitions ].


----------



## Nitin (May 28, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> I love the x-overs on my Linear Power amps  [ seamless transitions ].


and i love the crossovers on my PG xenons - 24db/oct as well as the detents in the frequency trimpots which take the guesswork out of adjusting - even though those amps dont enjoy a huge reputation - they do the job very decently for what ive managed to pay for them 

as for an amp being better because of a feature - it could be if that feature was a necessary part of your system design - if the rest of the stuff you have called for a 24db/oct crossover instead of a 12db/oct crossover then hey ...... hell yeah it would improve overall sound quality - i would claim that makes the amp better - but its not a given - it depends entirely on your entire system design


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I hate going to the trunk to use a crossover, I never use the ones in an amp. 

One issue I have is with how amps go into distortion, nobody seems to discuss that. Some change tone into a tin can, or my class d seems to play less of the lowest frequency on subs. Some amps distort a little but then will play much louder....ok on subs but no good on highs. Some just turn into static and more static. While often a better amp plays clean and distorts all at once at the limit (and you can easily use all that amp has to give that way). I did find a term but forget, 'distortion ratio' maybe? Had to do with how fast the distortion ramps up as power increased. Obviously I'm not a fan of using huge amps I'll never max out... But actually many old school amps are right in that 50-100rms/ch range that work well for mid/highs and that is mostly what I have always used and compared. I have asked a master tech and he said when they clip they clip, yet over many years and amps I see there is obvious differences in them at the limit. Given source levels are never the same I always run into this.


----------

