# 1 sub or 2 subs...help with understanding...



## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

I was just thinking about subwoofers lately. I get after reading all the numerous post that the front stage is more important than the subs. I think we all understand that to a certain degree. In terms of output are two subs really better than one? I have heard where some people say my one X beats two or three y's. Is this true of the super subs? I've got 1k watts. Is it better to power mutiple subs or one really good sub? I already have in mind the subs I'm going with but I have always wanted to know this. No, I am not trying to go balls out with spl.


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

On a basic level, what you hear and feel is determined by the excursion and cone area. In that respect, it's tough to counter the increased cone area of extra subs. It's really an imprecise question.

I personally prefer single sub systems. I think one of the things people like most about 2 sub setups is that you feel it more.

The problem with the comparisons is that it's not necessarily a linear relationship. Will a single 10W7 outdo a pair of 10" $7 cheapo subs? Definitely. But my single 8" L7 likely would too. Would a pair of 10W6s outdo a single 10W7? Also probably true. They're all mostly pointless comparisons though.

Personally, I prefer smaller installs that can be hidden and don't take up valuable cargo space. This means I typically only go with a single subwoofer, typically of a higher end model, but not always. It really kinda depends what you're building.


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## eggyhustles (Sep 18, 2008)

Correct me if im wrong, but wouldn't an extra sub only net you 3db in output if power is split between the 2? I doubt 3db would be that noticeable in the realm of things to justify the extra space and cost of another sub.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

I think this depends on your goals.. Everyone's goals are different. I for one hate non-utilitarian setups. I want my setup to look as inconspicuous as possible. I want to have as much trunk space available as possible, even if I fill my trunk only once a year. I don't want subs and amps to get in the way of carrying furniture, travel bags, etc. Based on this alone, I'd try to go for a single sub setup. Regarding SQ I like the sub that blends well with the front stage. I don't like to see mids and highs being drowned by bass. I like to add a little bass boost, but I certainly don't like my car to sound like a dance club floor. Right now I have a 1.15 ft^2 sealed 300watt sub running off 250watt amp channel and that seems enough in terms of volume level for a midsized car. Amp volume gain as at 60%, and with bass boost, I suspect the amp runs at the limit of what's possible to play without distortions. I'd go with 500-600watt sub in the same kind of box to get more headroom if I had a better amp but I suspect that's not crucial for my car.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

Let me add some clarification to the question. Is it better to put 1k watts on 1 sub or 2? Having 2 would mean they would only see 500 watts each versus 1 @ 1k watts. I do know a 3 db increase is a 3 db increase so it would be significant for those seeking max spl. I'm simply curious to hear what people think. A better example would be I could put the full 1k on a single 15 and have it slam. That same wattage could be spread over 2 or 4 subs. So, the logic is more woofers means more bass you can feel???


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Multiple subs get louder, with less travel and less distortion than single subs with the same power. 

Honestly though, with 1000 watts to use, you're gonna overpower your front stage with anything you use, even a single 12, if you feed it that much power.


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

Personally I think that the front stage is crucial but no sub stage is a major problem. I can think of a couple of SQ cars off the top of my head that handle this with single subs. I would think that space or dimension of an area would have a lot to do with what you would decide. I will say this; you have to have a driver or drivers in the front of the car that will work with your sub or subs to achieve a great sub stage. I can say much more than that because every driver and car reacts different. It took me about 3 times before I found a good combo.
If you are looking for make the neighbors mad bass then the largest sub you can get that will work with your available space and power is the way to go.




BigGeorge said:


> I was just thinking about subwoofers lately. I get after reading all the numerous post that the front stage is more important than the subs. I think we all understand that to a certain degree. In terms of output are two subs really better than one? I have heard where some people say my one X beats two or three y's. Is this true of the super subs? I've got 1k watts. Is it better to power mutiple subs or one really good sub? I already have in mind the subs I'm going with but I have always wanted to know this. No, I am not trying to go balls out with spl.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

Here it comes...drum roll...please... So why makes amps and subs that can make and take all that power if a typical front stage can't keep up? Seriously, most of us don't have the space or know how to install 8"s, 10"s or even 12"s up front. Again, I am talking about a typical set up not some spl monster rig.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

8675309-e-ine, what is your set-up?


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

BigGeorge said:


> Here it comes...drum roll...please... So why makes amps and subs that can make and take all that power if a typical front stage can't keep up?


Simple. That's what the average consumer wants... BOOM!


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

What vehicle are you putting this into, & how much space are you willing to sacrifice? If I have the room I will always choose multiple subs so I can get the volume I want without having to worry about stressing the subs.

What are you using for your front stage?


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## STI GUY (Feb 5, 2011)

Depends. Are you going to run these subs in series? Is your amp mono? Will it be stable down to that ohm load? When asking questions it is really best to give as much info as possible. I personally think too much is never enough. (clear volume that is)


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

It's all very subjective. 

Ideally, using multiple subs will be more efficient acoustically than a single driver. You'll feel the bass more, but it may or may not sound better, because it will probably be easier to localize. 

My philosophy is to use the largest single sub that I can fit it a given space. In other words, I would rather have a single high-end 15" on 1Kw rather than a pair of mid-grade 12's w/ 500 watts each. This way, you have a simpler enclosure design and maximize the performance of one good sub and take up less room in the process.

However, most of the market (i.e. - not a typical forum member of this board) would opt for the multiple approach because of the boom & zoom factor - it rattles the trunk more, and looks more impressive when showing off to friends.

There's really no right or wrong answer to this - you just gotta do what you like.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't think there is ever going to be an exact answer to this question. But I appreciate hearing all the opinions. Like I said a little earlier, I'm already know the subs I'll be using so it's no problem for me. I was more so curios about "super subs" like the W7, DD 99500 or Z, MTX Jackhammer, etc, and how they compare to two subs of "lesser quality" or the same watts split between multiples versus one.
I think in an earlier post it was asked what I am running for front stage and amps. I have 2 x Rockford Fosgate 551s for the mids and highs rated at about 150 watts/channel. I will be using HAT Imagines 6.5 components. My sub amp is a Rockford Fosgate 1051s rated at 1150 watts.
The vehicle all of this is going in is a 1983 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, cousin to a Grand National or Monte Caro SS.


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## thegreatestpenn (Feb 16, 2011)

different subs are for different applications. super subs are especially important in the competition world because classes are determined by cone area or sub size/amount. So if you wanna do a lower class you may want to put a ton of power to a single 10 or 12.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

But, would putting a ton of power to a single 10" or 12" sub you give more spl than that same power split between two lesser subs? I need more people to chime in on this. This is getting good...


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

BigGeorge said:


> But, would putting a ton of power to a single 10" or 12" sub you give more spl than that same power split between two lesser subs? I need more people to chime in on this. This is getting good...


Easy enough to figure out... Download winISD and see for yourself.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

More subs equals more output up to about 4 subs, I ran quad 12s IB on 420rms and was going to try them at rated 600rms but could not use all the bass I had at 420. But people don't want a trunk full of subs, that is why you can buy huge xmax subs and use less of them. I run a pair of $40 pyle 15s (each, on sale) and they work well. In normal listening they hardly move and I get great bottom to 25Hz. With a 4x75 I had in there the subs will blow the highs away down to 30Hz no problem. Since they are IB they take less trunk room than a .8cf box I had in there temp with a single 10. Now with IB I try to shoot for double the cone as a box because you do lose some output. This time I tried a cheaper sub because I knew a pair of 15 was overkill for what I want, they model pretty close to the same output as the quad 12s did.

Remember you have to use 10X the power to get twice as loud, so half the power is not far from just as loud as full power. There is not much difference between the 4x70, then 75, now 50/ch amps I just ran in my car...yes a difference, but not a large one.

I do like to run multiple subs to help get rid of nodes, spread the bass around a little, but I would not call that a rule....because on the other hand a larger sub tends to have a lower Fs and can get lower plus will be more efficient.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

FAUEE said:


> On a basic level, what you hear and feel is determined by the excursion and cone area. In that respect, it's tough to counter the increased cone area of extra subs. It's really an imprecise question.
> 
> I personally prefer single sub systems. I think one of the things people like most about 2 sub setups is that you feel it more.
> 
> ...



now, thats what I was thinking


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

You're an eager beaver, aren't ya Beaver? Well I don't know anything about that program other than it's a great piece of software to model subs. I've never used it before. I'm not even sure I would understand it. I am a noob in a sense. I would rather just get something off the shelve and rock and roll. I am simply basing my question purely off of theory. The first day I walked into a stereo shop several years ago I told the guy I wanted some boom. I was looking for a pair of 12''s and he said something about all I needed was one really great sub. If I wasn't young and dumb, I should have asked him why. Needless to say when I found out about Cruthfield, I ordered some Kicker Comps and a Q-logic box and I never looked back.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

In the old days people ran IB and multiple subs because that was all there was, and the amps could not run more anyway. Today power is cheap, and those huge xmax subs take a lot of power to run, but everyone loves a small box so that is what sells.


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## Fast VW (Dec 23, 2009)

Ok I normally only read the great info on this site but I have to throw this out there to see if I am mistaken.

My understanding is this:

1. 1 amp at 1000 watts
2. 1 sub getting all 1000 watts
3. Add a second sub gain 3db from increase cone area
4. Lose 3db because now each sub is only getting 500 watts (double the power gain 3db. cut the power in half and lose 3db)
5. Net change = 0db

Correct or Incorrect?


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes and no. Not all subs have linear outputs with respect to power, so some subs take better to being high powered as opposed to having 2 subs getting less power.

There's honestly too many variables to make an honest comparison.

But here's a story about a great friend of mine (RIP Andrew) and our first systems. He actually got me into car audio. He had a pair of RF P10 10s in a prefab box in his Integra. Good amount of bass, and MAN did you feel it in that little car. When i got my car, I got an Infinity Kappa Perfect 10. I used a slightly smaller amp than him, but I built a box to spec with my father, it was a fantastic box too. Simple, clean, the right size, and no leaks whatsoever.

Comparison wise, my single higher end 10 with slightly less power put out more bass than his subs. But you'd never think that going by feel alone, you could only tell with side by side music comparisons. His subs moved a LOT more air and made a LOT more "compression" in his little car with its little airspace, whereas mine you could barely feel it (which eventually lead me to go too far with it and blow the dust cap off. Too bad, that was an AWESOME sounding sub,really an awesome sub in general). Eventually he upgraded to a pair of RF P2 12s, and when I had to send my sub back because the dust cap, I borrowed his old P1s. The result was as would be expected, you could feel them a little more than the Kappa Perfect, but the bass and sound wasn't there.

So the moral of the story is that there's more to it than power/number of subs. Vehicle size, box design and size and quality, etc. all play a hugely important part in it. So it really comes down to preference. I can't imagine myself having more than a single sub again really. Mostly because of size/airspace constraints, it's just unlikely. I'm not opposed to the idea of it, it's just unlikely because of my personal preferences and requirements for a stereo.

Here's the way I see it. It's better to buy a single better sub. Why? Simple. If you start with 1 nice sub and you decide you want more, you can buy another one to match it. if you buy a pair of lesser subs and decide you want more, well you can either run 4 subs (huge space issue) or you have to upgrade both subs and get stuck with two leftover subs that you can maybe sell for almost nothing.

But I'm big into efficient use of dollars. And intentional butchery of english grammar.


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## Fast VW (Dec 23, 2009)

FAUEE said:


> Yes and no. Not all subs have linear outputs with respect to power, so some subs take better to being high powered as opposed to having 2 subs getting less power.


So in my very simple example the answer would be yes (or darn close) if you compared one 10", brand Y, 4ohm sub vs. two 10", brand Y, 8ohm subs (wired to a single 4ohm load) in the same vehicle using an amp whose output was 1000 watts into a 4 ohm load.


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

Fast VW said:


> So in my very simple example the answer would be yes (or darn close) if you compared one 10", brand Y, 4ohm sub vs. two 10", brand Y, 8ohm subs (wired to a single 4ohm load) in the same vehicle using an amp whose output was 1000 watts into a 4 ohm load.


Not necessarily. It will all come down to the construction of the subs. Some manufacturers rate their subs for a certain power rating, but knowingly under rate them. Some manufacturers build their subs so that you can get a lot of bass with a tiny amp, and so 80% of its max output can be achieved with 50% max power. Other subs are built so that the majority of their output isn't achieved until they're at nearly max power.

So really, there's no simple answer. I'd love to give you a definite yes, but there's just too many variables. In theory, if you had subs that had identical characteristics, and were designed specifically for this test, then yes, your statement would hold true. But in the real world, it's just not possible to isolate all the variability from it.

Another thing nobody has touched on, the number of subs you have can change the effect your vehicle's cabin gain has on your output levels.


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## Fast VW (Dec 23, 2009)

Ok, I got it. Thanks.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

In general a lower power speaker will be more efficient. Sure expensive speakers can make some of that back and not blow up, but in general a 500rms sub will go louder on 500 than a 1Kw sub will all else equal.

Another thing that may or may not be an issue, is response. Usually bass you feel is lower bass and harder to make. Twice the cone area is far better at making lower bass. For example it is much easier to make 50Hz than 30Hz. If you model a sub you can see them run out of xmax at low frequency. The idea with my 15s is they would run half the xmax with a pair, and they do. At a normal volume where it would be difficult to converse but not overly loud, they hardly move making 30Hz. The opposite of that might be a single 12 with huge xmax that will be less efficient due to size and xmax, and need a lot more power. It may still not be able to make the low tones like 15s, low bass takes cone area or huge xmax there is no way around it. If you like higher tight bass, then no big deal life is easier for you lol.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

Good stuff folks. This question in part stems from so many people running single sub systems and because when I was younger I used to think 1 12" or 1 15" or 1 18" would kill mutiple 10"s or 12"s; Of course I don't have the space for that unless I get and suv. And If I had an suv, I'm sure 1k watts would just warm the sub up.


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## BigGeorge (Sep 25, 2010)

Would 1 15" sub ported be louder than 2 12"s sealed? Of course subs in the same line up.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

BigGeorge said:


> Would 1 15" sub ported be louder than 2 12"s sealed? Of course subs in the same line up.


Probably


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Ported is more or less free output, but it has to be tuned/built properly to work right.

A larger sub is more efficient because it moves more air, all else equal. They also tend to have a lower Fs meaning they can get lower before EQ.

You can make up for more cone area with more xmax, and that is why people can run single subs now and get the output. Back in the day they didn't make subs with huge xmax, you had to run more subs to get more output. Of course a sub with big xmax that also sounds good is expensive to make, don't forget that, otherwise it will have more distortion if not built properly. Even cheap subs are pretty clean at low xmax.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

This is a relevant thread related to another 1 vs 2 sub thread being discussed.


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