# BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15" IB



## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Welcome to Kraut's lightweight, budget SQ build.
The goal of this stereo build is to have a great sounding system that is completely stock appearing and hardly adds any weight to the car.
Guidelines:
Maintain stock appearance
Front stage only (eventually active), no rear fill
Single subwoofer running infinite baffle to save weight
Only one amp for the entire system
Added weight must be: 
1) kept to an absolute minimum 
2) distributed towards the rear axle as much as possible
Sound deadener will be used sparsely
Don't break the bank *gosh*

I've been lurking here for a while and just recently signed up. In the last few months I've learned a ton from this forum alone, read countless inspiring build threads, reviews, how-tos and have been hunting for deals on equipment.
A year ago I had no idea what infinite baffle is, what it means to run active and I thought JL Audio were the greatest subwoofers...
My install experience from previous rides is limited to swapping head units, speakers and adding sub boxes in the trunk. Pretty basic stuff. I thought it was great at the time.

For this car I'm doing things a little different.
The reason for the stock appearance is not because I'm some kind of purist, I just don't want to attract thieves and I've always preferred the look of 'most' stock radios over the shiny, colorful aftermarket kind.
Luckily I stumbled across some OEM looking aftermarket decks:
VDO & Continental / Kienzle. The face plates are matte black not shiny, illumination is orange. The look is very similar to 80's & 90's OEM BMW & Audi. I love it.
I haven't bought the head unit yet, for now I'm running with the basic Kenwood deck that came in the car. Once all the other equipment I received so far is installed I'll probably order the Continental deck.
Eventually I also want to get a MiniDSP and go active.



The car is a '84 BMW 528: 6 cylinders, 5 speed, 4 doors & under 3000 lbs (and I intend to keep it that way). This is right after I washed it the weekend I bought it:



Part of this install is also relocating the starting battery from behind the headlight to under the rear seat for better weight distribution. The new battery is a Odyssey PC680 MJT (16 lbs). I don't plan on running the system ever with the motor not running. I'm also currently switching the stock rear bench for rear bucket seats from the 80's BMW E24 6 series coupe. The new rear seats don't leave any space for the 5 channel amp to fit below them, so I will most likely install the amp below the rear deck in the trunk. This way the weight of the amp is still between the wheels.

I scored this used amp here in the classifieds for $100 shipped: Next Audio Emotions Q.55 5 channel:







Found this pic online:



I'm hoping it will run the sub at 2 Ohms, even though the manual doesn't give any numbers for 2 Ohms. It says the stereo channels can run 4/2/1.5 Ohms but doesn't specify anything about the sub channel.

For the front stage I got some JBL P560C 2 way components new on eBay for $68 shipped. 2 Ohms, 75 watts RMS















The new sub arrived today: Image Dynamics ID15 v3 D4















Next to the 5.25" JBL and the 4x6" Polk plate:



Running the sub IB seems like a win win to me at the moment: Saves weight because there's no box and requires less power so I can get away with just a 5 channel amp. I guess I'll see if it's enough bass for me.
The nice man at the FedEx store where I received the sub let me weigh the raw driver on his precise scale: 
20.4 lbs for that 15" sub! Not bad, pretty light.
I was originally gonna go with a single 12" Infinity 120.9w that only weighs 15 lbs, but errbody seems to prefer more cone area when going IB. Since it's my first go at IB I want to give it the best shot and trust the experts. See how easy I up sold myself on a larger sub? 

I've torn into the car a little so far. Just removed the front & rear speakers, both 4x6". Since I'm not running rear speakers I'll close off the holes and build a new rear deck cover and upholster it. In the front there really isn't much space so I'm building custom baffles to space the 5.25" mids out a little. The cavity in the A pillar is too narrow for the JBLs to recess into:



These were installed by the previous owner in typical previous owner fashion: 3 out of 4 screws used, all 3 lose, grille rattling like crazy, speaker wire ran loosely under dash around other wires without even a single zip tie, bare speaker wire strands wrapped around speaker's terminals then electrical taped. The electrical tape had already fallen off.  Classic.



The little Polk plates are actually pretty good. I'm gonna use them to build computer desktop speakers out of with a little mini amp from PartsExpress.com More on that later.



Positioning the tweeter: I'm thinking the stealthier the better and I don't like where the factory premium sound option (that my car didn't come with) places the tweeter on the sail panel pointed at the front seats. The mids in the kicks are so much further away from the listener than the tweeters, that's why I'd rather the tweeters not point directly at the listener. The goal is to have it sound as good as possible even before adding the MiniDSP down the road.
I will play with the positioning and decided what sounds best:
A) under the little vent on the actual dash firing up, reflecting off windshield
B) on the A pillar firing across dash
C) on the sail panel 



For sound deadening I picked Second Skin Damplifier Pro based on good reviews here. I won an eBay bid from user 'nps' for an open box of 18 sheets (unused of course) for $160.95 shipped. That's around 30 sq.ft. and 18 lbs, didn't want to add any more weight than that for deadening. $160ish is what I was gonna spend on 40 sq.ft. of regular Damplifier new, so essentially I upgraded the quality at the expense of some quantity. I'm happy.



I'll update this thread as I move along. There's a ton of work left to do...


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## carlr (Feb 27, 2011)

Mmmm some E28 goodness... My first ever encounter with the BMW driving experience, loved every second of it. Looking forward to see how this gets realised!


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Love me a clean E28. I have memories of an M5 that belonged to a fellow spectator at Summit Point Raceway that I used to drool over. I was a teenager at the time.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

carlr said:


> Mmmm some E28 goodness... My first ever encounter with the BMW driving experience, loved every second of it. Looking forward to see how this gets realised!


Awesome, thanks. Hopefully I can get this build off the ground soon.



Old Skewl said:


> Love me a clean E28. I have memories of an M5 that belonged to a fellow spectator at Summit Point Raceway that I used to drool over. I was a teenager at the time.


I'd like an M5  My dad took me to Summit Point to watch amateur motorcycle racing when i was a teenager. Some good memories.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

*Oops I did it again...*

I'm a terrible person. First I hardly get anything done on my car in the last two weeks, then I buy another sub before ever even installing the first one:
Found this lightly used NVX VCW154 15" monster on eBay for a steal, just over half of the new price shipped and i couldn't resist. It was on my short list of 15" subs to own to try IB in my car.





Next to the brand new ID15







The VCW154 has 20mm xmax, Fs of 26hz. RMS is 850 to 1000 for ported and sealed, respectively.
Vas is 106L, sensitivity is 87db (1w/1m), Qts is .44



I know it's not at all lightweight. It weighs 10 lbs more than the ID15 (30.5 vs 20.4 lbs). I'll probably mostly run the ID and every once in a while switch just for fun. Which ever one is not in the car will be running in my home stereo system.
The modular trunk baffle system I'm building for the car will make it very easy to swap drivers. Each driver will have its own baffle that is attached to the main baffle that always stays in the car.

Some other subs on my list to own and try IB are the Alpine Type S 15", Dayton Ultimax 15", Dayton HF 15" (RSS385-4 HF), JBL W15GTi, ID MAX15, Sundown E-15 v3, RE Sex or Xxx 15" and Infinity 120.9w. The JBL GT5-15 WAS on the list but apparently got discontinued. Same for the JBL GTO 1514D.
On a side note -- I wonder if JBL is about to release a new 15" sub since they don't have a current 15.

Anyway, I'm still gonna try the ID15 first, let it break in and listen to it for a few weeks and then switch to the NVX to compare the two.
Next day off I'm working on relocating the battery so I can hook up the amp so I can hook up the speakers and sub so I can have tunes in my car again... Then there's also plenty of Damplifier Pro still to be installed.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

So I messed around with the sub baffle a little.
Instead of using cardboard to make a template I used some 1/2" insulation foam we had around. It's actually ideal for making templates because it's light, very easy to trim and it holds its shape well unlike cardboard.
I forgot to snap a pic of the final foam baffle template, but it fit neatly to the sheet metal wall separating the cabin and trunk.
A shot of the trunk:



This wall is getting a big hole cut into it and it doesn't even know it yet...
Unfortunately there's a step on the bottom so my baffle has to start above that.
A 15" sub baffle JUST fits there:



Cabin side of ze wall:



There's some factory sound deadening on the trunk floor. Some people have referred to it as tar mat but I have no clue what it is:







It's damn heavy. My plan is to remove it entirely and put down Damplifier Pro not only in its place but everywhere in the trunk. Here's a close up of a chipped piece, it has foam backing. Is that just 80's OEM mlv? 



Once I was happy with the shape of the foam baffle I transferred it onto 3/4" birch plywood:





I used a clamped on 2x4 stud as a guide to make the longer cut which worked well. For the shorter cut I just said f*** it and free-handed it. Mistake. 

After test fitting the wood baffle in the vehicle I drew on the obligatory Union Jack. Then I used the NVX VCW154's rubber gasket as a guide to draw the cut out circle. I had previously confirmed that the diameter of that gasket was a good fit for both subs to be reverse mounted. 





My dad helped me with his router. We made a circle jig out of a metal piece that came with the router and a long screw, using the plunge router base and a trimming bit:





It worked well shy of one little mishap at the end near the 12 o'clock mark. Luckily the woofer's 12 o'clock screw won't be affected.
Tried it on just for size even though this isn't the baffle the woofer gets reverse mounted to:









Fits well.
I then made a second baffle template out of some more 1/2" foam. This oval baffle will be what the woofer gets reverse mounted to. Each sub will have its own unique and custom fit oval baffle. These oval baffles will be easily swapped out to swap woofers. At this point I'm thinking of attaching the oval baffle to the main baffle using T-nuts & bolts, unless someone has a better solution. The reason I don't want to use wood screws is that I don't want the threads to wear out as I'm swapping baffles.

Here's the final oval template. I looked around the house for something large and oval to use for the shape and found a small side table with an oval top. Flipped the table upside down onto the foam and came up with the curve / arc. Turned out way better than anything I could've drawn free-hand:







I then transferred the foam oval onto 3/4" birch plywood twice; one oval for each sub I have so far. As I get more subs down the road I'll build more ovals. The reason why each sub needs its own oval baffle is because each sub has a unique reverse mount cut out (to clear the surround).





Once the first oval was cut out and lined up perfectly onto the main baffle I screwed it down with two screws so I can use the main baffle as a template to route out the cut out. In hindsight I should've used clamps DUH.





And a quick test fit: perfect.



Both baffles' outer edges then got routed with a 1/4" round-over bit to enhance appearance and make it easier to upholster. The camera doesn't really pick up the rounded-over edge well:



The next step will be to attach the main baffle to the car and cut the sheet metal *yikes* You gotta pay to play. I don't plan on ever selling the car again anyway.

That's all for this update. I hope this thread with its step by step pics will be useful to some peeps down the road on the quest to audio nirvana. I certainly have learned a ton from this forum through other peoples' builds.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Subscribed.


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## Majik (Jun 22, 2009)

Lookin good. Nice progress.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

danssoslow said:


> Subscribed.





Majik said:


> Lookin good. Nice progress.


Thanks guys.
Yesterday I ordered some much needed parts for the battery relocation.

A junction block for the engine bay to run the + battery cable to from under the rear seat:



As well as a 150 amp breaker to protect the + battery cable from setting my car on fire in the case of a collision:



Both should arrive on Saturday so I can go to town this weekend.
The 1/0 gauge battery cable arrived weeks ago, as did the new Oddyssey PC680 MJT battery. I'll use some leftover 1/0 gauge to do the big 3 upgrade as well.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Very nice work! I'm really liking the swapability between subwoofers you have going on there. Great choice of equipment too!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

chithead said:


> Very nice work! I'm really liking the swapability between subwoofers you have going on there. Great choice of equipment too!


Thanks!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

So I got some more stuff done, progress is slow because I'm doing other work on the car as well. I finalized the battery cable from under the hood to under the rear seat so the car can drive again.



This project is my first time ever making my own cables, using TechFlex, heat shrink and soldering. When I placed my order for the TechFlex and heat shrink at wirecare.com (a while ago) I didn't know that 1/2" heat shrink wouldn't fit over the 1/0 gauge cable, that's why you see electrical tape in the pic. However, just after the above pic my dad gave me some 3/4" heat shrink he had so I actually peeled the electrical tape back off and did it right. 

The new junction block under the hood is as far towards the rear of the car as possible, right above the fire wall, to keep the battery cable as short as possible (weight). 
There were a few cables attached to the positive terminal under the hood and they needed to be rerouted and hooked up to the new junction block. The starter cable was long enough to be rerouted, just needed to be reterminated. The fuse box cable and one other relay cable, however, were too short so I ran some 4 gauge cable from the junction block to near the fuse box and connected them both. Glad I had ordered extra 4 gauge which will be the amp's power and ground btw.

Fuse box junction before final heat shrink:



Close up of junction: Each cable was terminated with the proper size ring terminal and individually heat shrinked, held together with a M6 bolt and self locking nut...



...then double heat shrinked over the junction to prevent it from shorting out against the inner fender:



How it looks with everything back in place: The junction is below all those relays on the side of the fuse box, the 4 gauge cable running to the junction block is ran along some other factory cables and uses their factory tie down points for a stealth look. The only give away that something is not stock is the shiny, new TechFlex:



On to the trunk.
I temporarily attached the baffles in place so I can pilot drill their mounting holes through the wood and the sheet metal at the same time. The calm before the storm:



Then I removed the wood and enlarged the sheet metal holes with a 1/4" bit because I'm using all M6 hardware:



Installed the threaded inserts into the wood baffles and test fit again:





Used the baffle as a template for cutting the hole. The point of no return:



I used the sawzall for the rough cut, then sheet metal sheers to trim most of the left over material, then a hand file to clean it up. It won't win any beauty contests but it works for now:



When installing the threaded inserts, I used 20 minute epoxy so they stay put:


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## Majik (Jun 22, 2009)

Diggin it so far!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Majik said:


> Diggin it so far!


Thanks!

I worked on it some more after this morning's update and finished the battery cables. I applied some Ensolite PnS to the floor underneath the battery, the wall it's pressed up against and the inside of the aluminum bracket to decouple the battery. For the ground cable I was able to go to a factory ground nearby (bottom left in the pic).

The brackets that hold the breaker also attach to the same mounting points (aluminum M6 rivnuts) as the battery bracket, the goal was to drill as few holes as possible and to avoid drilling into the floor / outside wall of the car. There's also some Ensolite on the tips of the brackets that rest on the floor.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

I had a sub in there in very early stages of my build - small sealed box with eD 6.5" long throw woofer. Upgraded to a 10" IDQ I think after. Rear seat massage option - check .


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Mless5 said:


> I had a sub in there in very early stages of my build - small sealed box with eD 6.5" long throw woofer. Upgraded to a 10" IDQ I think after. Rear seat massage option - check .


Yeah that's a popular spot for a sub enclosure and I've considered it as well. However, the E24 rear bucket seats leave no space underneath for it, even to fit the battery I'm hacking into the seat pan a bunch.
I hope a 15" IB on low power hits as hard as any 10" sealed shallow sub I could've squeezed under the stock rear seat... We'll see.
I'm working on the trunk today, removing the factory sound deadening to replace it with Damplifier Pro, hopefully mounting the amp before the end of the day.
I was shocked just how much the factory 'tar mat' weighs while I was removing it one little piece at a time with a scraper. When it was all out I weighed it at 35.8 pounds!!!!! Incredible.
Btw I also weighed the 9'9" long main 1/0 ga battery cable before I installed it and fully dressed with TechFlex, terminals and heat shrink it weighs only 3.9 pounds. Much less than I expected.

Before:



After:


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Does anybody have a / know of a Pioneer Deh-80prs for sale?
I'm looking to pick one up used in good shape, but I can't post in the Classifieds here yet.
If I don't find one used within a few weeks I will probably pick up a new one, they're $211 at jet.com.
Thanks for any head's up!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

So I read in the MiniDSP thread that the MiniDSP doesn't take speaker level inputs. The head unit I was planning to use for OEM looks doesn't have any pre-outs:



...so I guess I'll "settle" for the Pioneer Deh-80prs.
I installed that unit in my brother's 4runner, played with it a bunch and really fell in love with it. My only gripe is its 'aftermarket' looks. Maybe I can spray the faceplate with a matte clear to get rid of its gloss and also black out the chrome trim on the dial.


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

How about this deck? The old school looks would be fantastic and it has analog in, digital in, three pre-outs etc. I have always loved the way Naks sound and this one is a rare gem.

RARE Nakamichi MD45Z Car Radio MD Player Aux Autoradio Top Digital In | eBay


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

knever3 said:


> How about this deck? The old school looks would be fantastic and it has analog in, digital in, three pre-outs etc. I have always loved the way Naks sound and this one is a rare gem.
> 
> RARE Nakamichi MD45Z Car Radio MD Player Aux Autoradio Top Digital In | eBay


Wow MiniDisc takes me back like Mountain Dew Throwback!! I actually love MiniDisc, used to have all kinds of Sony portables in the 90's. While that is a sweet headunit, no doubt, it's expensive and I would still need a miniDSP with it to run active.
My choice of decks is between:
A)something cheap for OEM looks + miniDSP
B)something expensive that does it all (deh-80prs)


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

So I had to sell some non-audio stuff to raise funds for a new headunit and today I was able to order the Deh-80prs  Got it from Jet.com for $211 shipped


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

This is what the trunk floor looked like after removing the factory 'tar mat' sound deadener:



Once I scraped off the brown glue residue I wiped it down with alcohol and started applying the Damplifier Pro:





Here you can see the non-op factory power antenna that is getting yanked soon. I'm putting a stubby in its place:



I added some deadener to the flat panel between the taillights:



Some scrap 2x10 wood works well as a cutting board for the deadener:



The trunk's no yet done, still gotta do the spare tire well and the rest of the floor and cover with Ensolite.
My question is how much Ensolite should be applied? Since the deadener coverage doesn't need to be 100%, is it best to cover 100% with Ensolite?


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## FunkPnut (May 16, 2008)

IB wall setup looks great.

If you're trying to block outside noise entering through the trunk, you'd want to use MLV over ensolite.

Ensolite is really only good as a decoupler. So anywhere two hard surfaces touch or loose wires that might cause a rattle. Doors, rear deck, roof... are good places for that.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

FunkPnut said:


> IB wall setup looks great.
> 
> If you're trying to block outside noise entering through the trunk, you'd want to use MLV over ensolite.
> 
> Ensolite is really only good as a decoupler. So anywhere two hard surfaces touch or loose wires that might cause a rattle. Doors, rear deck, roof... are good places for that.


Gotcha, thank you.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Made some much needed progress this past week.
First of all the Deh-80prs arrived a few days ago and I got to terminating its harness:



As you can see I just heat shrank all the speaker leads together because I won't be using the deck's built in amp, only the rca outs.
I know it's nothing special but it was the first time I ever tried to make a harness look clean. In all my previous installs I've never cared about neat wiring, but since I stumbled across this forum I've gotten inspired by some seriously top notch installs and also some neat wiring threads. So in an effort of stepping up my wiring game I ordered lots of different colors and sizes of heat shrink, TechFlex, connectors, some new tools like a heat gun, side cutters and a soldering iron etc.
Just having fun with it all.

I also made a harness for the rca leads and sub level remote Cat5 cable to go from the deck to the amp, TechFlex'd it and ran it along the transmission tunnel. However, I had to use some old rca cables, even extending one of them and they don't match so I was too EMBARRASSED to snap a pic of it.
I was just going to place a Sonic order for the NVX 6 channel rca lead and a Scosche rca level remote for the sub channel when I stumbled across a classified ad on here of a used NVX JAD900.5 5 channel amp and I had to have it. I've installed that amp into my brothers car a few months ago and really fell in love with it.
I'll have to order the 6 channel rca lead in a few weeks.
So the oldschool NEXT amp you saw in previous pics has become my spare 5 channel and the NVX is going into the beemer.
The NVX is a much better fit for this install because it's lighter, smaller, Class D meaning it puts less of a draw on the weak factory alternator AND it puts out more power.
I weighed the NEXT amp at 10.8 lbs and the NVX at 6.5 lbs. What can I say 
An added bonus is that because the NVX is so much more compact I can now fit it under the rear seat instead of mounting it in the trunk which saves me lots of time & effort.

Just finished the mounting brackets out of 1/8" aluminum bar stock for the amp. They look a little weird but secure the amp nicely without having to drill into the floor of the car or using wood. One bracket attaches to a M6 rivnut I set into an unused factory hole in an interior sheet metal wall, the other bracket just velcros to the floor and side wall. The industrial strength 3M velcro is as strong as Chef's salty chocolate balls.
I'll post a pic tomorrow after it's installed and it will make more sense.
Underside of amp:



Got some M4 socket head bolts, washers and nylon self-locking nuts so nothing comes loose:



All the wiring is in place now and tomorrow the deck and amp is getting installed and the tuning can begin so stay tuned for more pics!
Thanks for watching!

R.I.P Chef


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

So lots of progress happened over the last week or so.
The deck got installed, I ran into a little bit of a depth problem but was able to overcome it. Then I installed the NVX amp (Class D), all the wiring was already in place since I did that first.
I hooked up only the front components for the first few days to let them break in and start tuning. All was well up to that point.
I listened to the front stage for about 3 days on its own, enjoying them breaking in and messing with the levels and eq. The JBL mids started to really loosen up after about 4 hours or so and then kept getting more and more midbass. At this point I've got about 10 hours of listening in with them, I'm pretty happy how they sound.
The tweeters are just stuck on top of the dash with double sided tape for now reflecting off the windshield.
Then I hooked up the sub for the first time, the brand new ID15. I had the gain at minimum and the volume on medium. It sounded really good already, very deep bass.
As I begin to turn up the gain, all of a sudden I get this really violent ground loop / feedback loop that sends static at full power on all channels. This only happens when the sub is hooked up, not at all with the front stage only. Luckily the tweeters didn't blow from it, but I bet they were close. I could hear them just frying from the noise, it was terrible.
So I at first assume the amp's sub stage might be bad and switch it out for the NEXT Q.55 amp (Class AB). It does something similar, but instead of a full mental static that doesn't stop 'til the ignition is turned off, it just clips really bad on all channels when the bass hits, only at medium volume and up.
Since the headunit is grounded to the chassis (I ran a dedicated ground cable from the deck's harness to a factory ground nearby) and the amp is grounded to the battery I've arrived at the conclusion that there's a ground loop present.
I unplugged all input rcas from the amp and plugged my ipod directly into the amp as a source and the problem went away, even though it was very noisy and not at all ideal, but it confirmed the issue.
So I've got to run a new ground for the amp to the chassis and see if that fixes my problem. If that doesn't cut it I may have to extend the headunit's ground cable all the way to the amp's ground location, but hopefully it won't get to that.
I haven't started deadening the cabin yet, there's lots of little holes around the mids that need plugged. The rear deck is also very perforated and has a TON of flex. Hopefully Damplifier Pro alone is enough for the rear deck, otherwise it might need its own baffle for added stiffness.
I'll snap lots of pics of the progress. Thanks for following along and have a great weekend!


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## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

I really like this build!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

hot9dog said:


> I really like this build!


Thanks!
I've been following along your new IB thread as well, I can't imagine what 1100 Watts of 18" sub will do to your CC but it sounds like fun! lol


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Regarding the ground loop issue I'm having: I changed the amp's ground from battery to chassis (the factory ground that the battery is grounded to) and it actually made it so bad that I couldn't even play any music. As soon as the system powered up without any music playing yet there was so much static noise coming out of the sub and then the front stage started popping and I just shut it off. Scary ****.
So my next move is to run the headunit's ground to the same ground as the amp.
THEN we see whats happens.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Figured it out: The sub's mounting bolts going through sheet metal was the culprit of my feedback issues. That's why I didn't have any problems playing just the front stage without sub and that's why the ipod as source directly into the amp was fine even with the sub playing.
Here's a picture of how the sub's mounting bolts go through sheet metal:



I know there's rust already even though I just cut the metal like a month ago. Gotta go back and seal it properly...
I guess I have to redesign my baffle or cut the hole in the metal even larger to clear the sub's bolts.
Suggestions?


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Not sure how the sub bolted o metal could cause a ground issue.......



But hole the sub to the baffle and the baffle to the metal.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

danno14 said:


> Not sure how the sub bolted o metal could cause a ground issue.......
> 
> 
> 
> But hole the sub to the baffle and the baffle to the metal.


Yeah I might have to redesign my baffle setup, I'd rather not cut any more sheet metal. But before anything I will try these and see what happens:










They're a fiberglass (Isoplast) bolt allegedly with nearly the tensile strength of steel, much stronger than Nylon bolts. I found them at
www.non-ferrousfastener.com 
Lets see how 8 of them hold up a 15" sub with 500 watts flowing through it. That will be quite impressive...
If anybody has any experience with these or something similar (non-conductive hardware) please do share. Thx


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Good thing you are in SC. If your car was back in Germany, it would be deemed unfit for road use since you cut the metal wall behind the back seat. See, in Germany cutting of any structural metal is strictly prohibited. And their inspections are 10 times as tough to pass than here in the US. (Watch this Top Gear Series 15, Episode 2 clip where their old German cars get inspected: https://youtu.be/BGla79jWB9k?t=38m18s ) I guess if your doing 150 mph+ on the Autobahn you better have all the structural rigidity intact that the government mandates. However, in the US, cut away!!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

cmusic said:


> Good thing you are in SC. If your car was back in Germany, it would be deemed unfit for road use since you cut the metal wall behind the back seat. See, in Germany cutting of any structural metal is strictly prohibited. And their inspections are 10 times as tough to pass than here in the US. (Watch this Top Gear Series 15, Episode 2 clip where their old German cars get inspected: https://youtu.be/BGla79jWB9k?t=38m18s ) I guess if your doing 150 mph+ on the Autobahn you better have all the structural rigidity intact that the government mandates. However, in the US, cut away!!


I know right? I grew up in Germany. One could say I escaped the evil clutches of the socialistic bureaucrats by moving to the world's last bastion of freedom, even though that's under attack now, too.
Btw I love Top Gear, I'll have to watch that episode later. Thanks!


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

I gotta tell you I am so jealous of that sheet metal behind the back seat being so flat, I wish I had something that flat for my IB... #Civicproblems lol
I love those older 5 series too, but that flat sheet metal really grabbed my attention.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

craiggus365 said:


> #Civicproblems


What year Civic??


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## MantaOwner (May 15, 2007)

Interesting to see how your IB-setup will look/perform in the end. Used to have an E30 and E34 back in the days so E28 is no stranger.

Tõnu


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

craiggus365 said:


> I gotta tell you I am so jealous of that sheet metal behind the back seat being so flat, I wish I had something that flat for my IB... #Civicproblems lol
> I love those older 5 series too, but that flat sheet metal really grabbed my attention.





MantaOwner said:


> Interesting to see how your IB-setup will look/perform in the end. Used to have an E30 and E34 back in the days so E28 is no stranger.
> 
> Tõnu


Thanks for following along guys!
Sorry for the long delay since getting anything done. I finally had the funds to order some stuff to continue: proper rcas (NVX X-series), right-angle rca connectors (Install Bay), better remote turn on wire (NVX) and insulating nylon shoulder washers (MicroPlastics):





Finally found a solution to insulate the sub mounting bolts from the car's chassis and stop the feedback loop: These here nifty nylon shoulder washers by MicroPlastics from Grainger.com:





The rcas sticking out the back of the deck were pressing up against stuff in the car due to depth clearance issues, so to make things more compact I picked up these Install Bay right angle rcas from Sonic:



To my disappointment they really didn't save much space desite them being advertised as "mini", but at least they'll prevent the rcas from getting damaged, these right-angles can press up against stuff and not get damaged. Mostly.



Regarding the rcas: I really wanted to get a 6 channel rca that was space saving like the NVX V-series kind, but it only comes in 6 meters which is twice as long as I need. So I settled for a 4 channel plus a 2 channel, both 3 meters long and NVX X-series which comes already TechFlexed.
Got some stuff to install now, plus a second package with a rca line level remote for the sub channel and more speaker wire arrives tomorrow.
I'm hoping I can get everything re-installed and sorted out by the weekend.
More to come!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Those sail panels (C) look like the spot. Nice big sails for some nice big tweety tweets. Some rings glued to dowels, a little t-shirt fleece with CA glue, a dab of filler, primer and SEM texture black, and that'd be awesome.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Babs said:


> Those sail panels (C) look like the spot. Nice big sails for some nice big tweety tweets. Some rings glued to dowels, a little t-shirt fleece with CA glue, a dab of filler, primer and SEM texture black, and that'd be awesome.


^^^Yep that sounds like a plan, plus a whole lotta sanding... I was thinking of aiming the tweeters straight at each other instead of aiming them back towards the front seats because of how off-axis the mids in the kicks are, does that seem about right?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

KrautNotRice said:


> ^^^Yep that sounds like a plan, plus a whole lotta sanding... I was thinking of aiming the tweeters straight at each other instead of aiming them back towards the front seats because of how off-axis the mids in the kicks are, does that seem about right?



I recommend trying them at an angle somewhat on axis personally. Also, with the cups you could use those to have a smaller overall outer diameter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

i don't recall but does the DEH80 have the pico fuse? if so that may be a part of your noise issue as well. simple test take a short bit of scrap wire strip the ends, take one end and wrap it around the neg outer conductor on rca behind radio(not at amp)and leave your rca's plugged in, then take the other end and ground to bare metal chassis, if noise goes away its the pico fuse, if the noise still persists or gets worse you have other issues.cant even remember how many pioneer installs I've had to do this on!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

jpeezy said:


> i don't recall but does the DEH80 have the pico fuse? if so that may be a part of your noise issue as well. simple test take a short bit of scrap wire strip the ends, take one end and wrap it around the neg outer conductor on rca behind radio(not at amp)and leave your rca's plugged in, then take the other end and ground to bare metal chassis, if noise goes away its the pico fuse, if the noise still persists or gets worse you have other issues.cant even remember how many pioneer installs I've had to do this on!


Thanks for the tip.
Yeah I think the 80prs has the infamous pico fuse, but not 100% sure. I don't quite understand what's it's for... I just know not to hot-swap rcas. 
I've seen a few people ground their rcas.
I've been running the system without the sub the past few weeks with no problems at all, I yet have to install those nylon shoulder washers.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Huge update: I bought some large tweetersaurus-rexes that can be crossed low in an effort to raise the sound stage and it totally transformed the system!
I was super lucky and scored these NVX XSPTW 1 1/8" tweets from Babs who is switching to a 3 way. I've known for a while that I wanted those big guys from searching 'tweeters that can be crossed low'.
I knew switching to a large tweeter was the logical next step in improving my setup, I just had no idea HOW MUCH of a difference it would make, I'm totally blown away.

First off the JBL P26T tweeters that came with the P560C comps were good, they have great top end sparkle and go loud and clear. I ended up crossing them over at 3.15k w/ 18db slope and they'd go very loud with no distortion at all. However, 'most of the music' still came out of the mids in the kicks that were lowpassed at 2k w/ 12db slope.

The first thing I did is just swap tweeters without changing any settings and right away a huge difference: the NVX gargantuans just play so much more efficient around the crossover point that it sounds like they're crossed way lower.
Next I incrementally dropped the crossover point, one step down from 3.15k to 2.5k made a big difference, then another step down to 2k made even more of a difference. I did try 1.6k but settled in at the stress free 2k with the slope changed to 12db.

Whereas the JBLs pretty much only played top end sounds like cymbals, the NVXs play a ton of mids as well. Voices, guitar, piano and some percussion like cowbell and snare drum now sound like they're coming out of the windshield, no longer from down by my feet.

Keep in mind that I'm working with an 80's car. The factory front speakers were freaking 4" coaxials in the kicks, not even 5" and not even in the lower door. Stereo sound ranked very low for 80's car designers, therefor they had other great things like handlebar mustaches, high waisted denim (that are now sadly coming back around) and fuel injection.

For installing the new to me tweets I ordered an extra set of tweeter-delete sail panels for my car (eBay). Next I cut out some 3/4" pine plywood pieces with a large holesaw, two per side. Then with a belt sander I turned the round wooden pucks into wedges.
Using the factory premium-sound tweeter sail panels (I was going to use for the JBL tweets) as a reference, I kinda knew the angle I was shooting for. In the pics you can see the two round, wooden pucks per side: One angled straight up and the other straight back. The result is a tweeter that is angled up and back, right at the opposing seat's head rest.





Factory premium-sound tweeter sail panel in foreground, my franken-project in the back:



Carefully pre-drilled the wood through the plastic and attached with 3 tiny screws from the back:



The NVX cups are attached via long, thin screws from the top that also go through the upper wooden puck and grab into the lower one. Again with careful pre-drilling:











Once these half-done but functional sails went back into the car I was so excited that the angle came out spot on the first try that I had to go for a shake-down drive. I forgot to snap pics of the tweeters installed in the cups until I came back hours later. It was getting dark so please excuse the grainy pics for now.
Sitting in the driver's seat the passenger side tweeter looks right at me, almost perfectly on axis:



The driver's side tweeter looks right at the passenger side front headrest, but not awefully off-axis for the driver. Maybe like 30 degrees.



On my 4 hour shake-down drive I listened to a few different cds from rock to 80's pop to hip hop, both studio recordings and some live songs. I had to turn the level on the tweeters way down (-5 db) compared to the JBLs. The eq was flat in the mid and high range, only the bass boosted a little. The sound stage height is now mid-windshield. I haven't even touched the time alignment yet.
4 hours of reference level listening and no fatiguing at all. The tweets are perfect!

Next step is to finish the sail panels and try to make them look factory. Also gotta run the speaker wire into the doors... *yay*

Thanks again Babs for selling me the tweets but also for convincing me to try them as on-axis as possible. They're amazing.

On my drive through Georgia today I got lost, took a wrong exit and ended up on a street that had these weird red and white curbs so I pulled over and took some pics:


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

*BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15&quot; IB*

Tweetersaurus-Rex hahahaha!! 

Man I'm glad you like them. Yeah no kidding those SB tweeters are special. I think, check me on this, they're ring radiators? I dunno, but yeah no joking they're truly legit. Enough that I hard a hard time making the decision to go the next level to a 3-way. 

I'm glad you hit me up for them. Rock on brother!

You could fleece those in with some really stretchy something like I used.. Spandex and CA glue, then maybe a layer of rage gold, sand, SEM primer then some SEM texture black and call it done. If I can remember I think I have like a metric ton of that spandex I'll try to send you. Shoulda stuffed some in the box with the tweetie tweets. 

Scott


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

*BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15&quot; IB*

You need to bring that bad boy to the NCSQ meet so we can partake of your new tunes in September. 

Man I love old beemers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15&quot; IB*



Babs said:


> Tweetersaurus-Rex hahahaha!!
> I think, check me on this, they're ring radiators?
> You could fleece those in with some really stretchy something like I used.. Spandex and CA glue, then maybe a layer of rage gold, sand, SEM primer then some SEM texture black and call it done. If I can remember I think I have like a metric ton of that spandex I'll try to send you.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yea I read they're ring radiators.
Spandex is a great idea!
I'd love to come to the NCSQ meet, I've never been to one.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15&quot; IB*



KrautNotRice said:


> Thanks! Yea I read they're ring radiators.
> Spandex is a great idea!
> I'd love to come to the NCSQ meet, I've never been to one.


Here's the thread.. It's a great event.. Hanging out with a bunch of guys all with the same compulsive obsession with car audio, getting to hear some ridiculously good systems, and learn a ton. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events-team-diyma/285329-2016-fall-ncsq-meet-23-25-septemberl-2016-near-greensboro-nc.html


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

I've been making progress at snail pace lately, just been chipping away at sound deadening. A few weeks ago I routed out some prototype baffles for the mids and they work well except there's lots of holes right around the mids that needed to be covered.
Factory 4x6 opening:



The prototype wood baffles are routed out of 3/4" pine plywood, I didn't have a circle jig that's why the hole is so screwy. It's quite a tight fit for the 5.25" JBL mids even though they're on the tiny side for 5.25". I will eventually redo the baffles nicer and then upholster them with black vinyl. The red arrow points at a piece of ccf I stuck on the sheet metal where the mid's magnet is almost touching.



The holes below the mids:



Covered with some Damplifier Pro:



The cavity behind the mids is connected to the inner rocker panel which had some holes in it (red arrows) that also needed covering to prevent loss of mid bass. There was some 30 year old factory deadening that was mostly broken off already when I pulled the carpet, what little was still stuck to the metal was then removed, the area wiped down with rubbing alcohol and treated with Damplifier Pro:


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

The sub is now working as of about a week ago. I finally got around to installing the nylon shoulder washers to decouple the sub from the car's chassis and stop the nasty ground feedback loop. It was a two-person job, one person undoing the nuts from the cabin side and the lucky person laying in the trunk (at 100 degrees) and holding a wrench on the bolt so it wouldn't spin. The good news is it WORKED! No more feedback loop.
The bad news is the brand new ID15 is crackling and making scratching noises, so I'm returning it. Not sure if it arrived that way or if it didn't like the feedback loop I was experiencing earlier. Either way I'm bummed yet prepared with another sub. My lucky helper then got to lay in the trunk some more and help me swap the ID15 for the NVX VCW154 I bought used on ebay.
The NVX is incredible, I absolutely love it so far. Unfortunately since the ID15 is blown I have no comparison as of right now.

Since the sub works now I've started the long process of tracking down and eliminating rattles. I kicked things off with the license plate, covered the back side with some peel 'n' stick Ensolite from Raamaudio:


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Continued deadening ze trunk: I bumped the system while standing behind the car (with trunk closed) and the trunk lid seems to be rattling. I will need to pull the trunk lid covering:



There's an onboard tool kit, complete except the pliers in the center. Eventually I'll send the tools off to get recoated along with other bits from under the hood.



Still can't believe the panel came off without any of the clips breaking:



I wish the exterior paint on my car was this clean and shiny...



Little bit of Damplifier Pro on the flat surfaces, hopefully this will help. It was getting dark and them darn skeeters were killing me...



Took the panel inside to stick some Ensolite around the clips:





Hopefully that will help kill the rattles. I really don't want to put the panel back on and off a bunch of times, end up breaking something. Any recommendations of where to treat anything else before the panel goes back on? Thx


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Another afternoon of just laying sound deadener. I'm going for 25 - 50% coverage in the vital areas.
Wheel wells before:





After (started using large scrap pieces there):



That vapor canister needed to be removed in order to get a large piece of deadener onto the top of the wheel well on the passenger side:



Underside of rear deck before:



That's all the deadener it's getting from below but I'm adding 100% coverage onto the top of the rear deck as it's pretty flimsy / rattly:



Started on the top side of the rear deck, but had to call it bc it was getting dark (sorry for the grainy pics):



So far I've burned through 10 sheets, only have 4 left. I underestimated how much Damplifier Pro I needed, haven't even started on the cabin floor, doors or roof yet. Gonna have to get some more. I'm on the fence about doing the spare tire well at this point, my main goal is just to have a quieter ride, what do you guys think?


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Finished up the remaining 4 sheets of Damplifier Pro into the trunk today.
I've used as many sheets on the trunk alone as I thought I could get away with for the entire car.
One sheet cut in half onto the floor where some factory tar mat used to be:



Btw the factory tar mat that used to be on just part of the trunk floor weighed 35 pounds, while the 14 sheets of Damplifier Pro that replaced it and covered WAY more areas of the trunk weigh 14 pounds. Pretty good upgrade.
Spare wheel well cleaned out:



Cut up exactly one sheet and distributed it around the well (like I've seen the pros do it lol). Banging around in the well with my knuckles (as sound test) before, during and after was a real eye opener:



The top of the rear deck ended up taking 2 1/2 sheets to completely cover:







In that last pic you can see the dust cap isn't clocked right with the sub's mounting bolt at 12 o'clock, though the ID15 was. However, once the new rear seats are installed the sub will be hidden anyway.
I still have to build the brackets to mount the rear buckets. Finalizing that part of the build will be my next priority now that the trunk is treated.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

I downloaded the free 'rta lite' iphone app and did a subwoofer frequency response test using a youtube frequency test track before I sealed the rear deck and all the little holes in the rear bulkhead wall that let the sub's front and rear wave couple and thus cancel some bass. With all the holes the sub had decent output down to 30hz, almost nothing at 25 and 20 hz. There was a noticeable bump at 50 hz (cabin gain? I don't know, I'm just a newb).

Once I was done sealing off all the holes I repeated the test and found that the sub now has more output at all frequencies, still has a bump at 50 hz, but now has strong output at 25 hz and some at 20 hz. My amp has a subsonic filter at 20 hz that can't be disabled, probably a good thing.
Not exactly a scientific test, I know, but it was nice to see / hear the difference before and after sealing up all the leaks.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

I find IB really intriguing & alluring, but it looks like a pain in the ass compared to more traditional enclosures. What's your assessment of that idea? 

And what's up with that track you posted a while back? That's just stuff of dreams. I'm a sucker for urban decay, but an old track makes it that much better.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

rob feature said:


> I find IB really intriguing & alluring, but it looks like a pain in the ass compared to more traditional enclosures. What's your assessment of that idea?


I felt the same way when I found out about it. I had no choice but IB because of weight reasons, the box I would've gotten is 40 lbs. Yikes.
Let me tell you -- IB is the BIGGEST pain in the butt, most time consuming way to add a sub, it doesn't even compare to the conventional way. It's certainly not for everyone, especially not for those who lack patience.

However, the pay off is worth it to me. If done right, you save boat loads of weight, need only 1/2 the watts for your sub stage, your sub digs deeper and sounds cleaner, you keep almost all your trunk space and get to know / bond with your car on a deep, personal level during the long, tedious install. My car's name is Adelheit (Adelaide in Engrish). Lmao
Btw needing only half the watts to drive your sub(s) often means you can get away with a single amp to run your whole system, like a 5 or 6 channel. You end up saving money in equipment and wiring, saving more weight and space over multiple amps.
The sound is freakin' sweet, but caters more to the SQ rather than SPL crowd. It's perfect for me.



rob feature said:


> And what's up with that track you posted a while back? That's just stuff of dreams. I'm a sucker for urban decay, but an old track makes it that much better.


Yes! I love that kinda sh*t, too.
I found out about it through a thread on TCL (vwvortex subforum):
VWVortex.com - Abandoned Tracks?
The track I visited is near my house so I couldn't resist.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Oh man, that's cool. Thanks for that link! I 'll have to dig through & see if there's anything out here. I may have to settle for our abandoned Titan missile silos and mines, but those are pretty cool too. 

If I ever wind up with a car that has a trunk I'm gonna have to try it. I may be a glutton, but I enjoy the build.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

KrautNotRice said:


> IB is the BIGGEST pain in the butt, most time consuming way to add a sub, it doesn't even compare to the conventional way. It's certainly not for everyone, especially not for those who lack patience.





KrautNotRice said:


> ...get to know / bond with your car on a deep, personal level during the long, tedious install.


Oh but ain't that the truth! Word!!  Number one single most difficult thing I've attempted yet with my car. Can't wait to hear it though.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

rob feature said:


> I may have to settle for our abandoned Titan missile silos and mines, but those are pretty cool too.


Damn that sounds cool! Be sure to share some pics in your thread when you take your truck there. 



Babs said:


> Oh but ain't that the truth! Word!!  Number one single most difficult thing I've attempted yet with my car. Can't wait to hear it though.


Yeah I got one good listening session in with the system since the sub is hooked up, but now that everything works I'm taking everything back apart for upholstery and misc. finishing work. One day though, one day... it'll be 'done'


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Wanna see them tweetie tweets all finished in and pretty. Build is coming along nice! Makes me want some old school Deutch auto. 


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Babs said:


> Wanna see them tweetie tweets all finished in and pretty. Build is coming along nice! Makes me want some old school Deutch auto.


Thanks! I'll get on the tweets soon. Gonna rip the entire system back out, upholster the baffle, glass them tweets, TechFlex all the wiring and then reinstall everything 'one last time' lol


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

KrautNotRice said:


> Thanks! I'll get on the tweets soon. Gonna rip the entire system back out, upholster the baffle, glass them tweets, TechFlex all the wiring and then reinstall everything 'one last time' lol


Hahaha! I know your pain. Reason my car's been down for months.. So I only have to do it once. I said that last time I tore it down.. Wait what?! 

Techflex.. Nice touch. I lose patience a bunch for that, but is sure finishes off the job nicely. I went "in-wall" with the speaker wiring so they're already sleeved really well, otherwise, I'd have to try techflex finally. Problem is, all that prettiness and only a little would actually be seen. haha


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Babs said:


> Techflex.. Nice touch. I lose patience a bunch for that, but is sure finishes off the job nicely. I went "in-wall" with the speaker wiring so they're already sleeved really well, otherwise, I'd have to try techflex finally. Problem is, all that prettiness and only a little would actually be seen. haha


In-wall speaker wire is clever!
I finally started on glassing the tweets.
Side by side you can see they're not 100% symmetrical, but I've adjusted one of the plastic cups a little more after I took these pics. Good enough.





I didn't have any grill cloth or spandex, so I'm using an old T-shirt as fabric to span over the tweeter cups. My favorite Adidas shirt that's too worn to wear anymore... it will live on in my car. How sweet is that?



I'm starting with the passenger side. Removed the tweeter from the cup, sanded / scuffed all surfaces with coarse sandpaper so the glue will stick better.



Then a quick massage with the belt sander to knock down one edge of the cup that was in the way. Smoothed over those edges with sandpaper again.







Started stretching the fabric. This step is a pain. The wood block on the bottom edge is because the bottom 1/2" of the sail panel actually tucks behind the door cap, so there needs to be an indentation.





Started 'spot welding' the fabric to the rear edge with CA glue / Gorilla glue / super glue / whatever you wanna call it. It's cyanoacrylate, the stuff I used a lot to glue coral frags to live rock when I still had my reef aquarium.







I'm using a tongue depresser to tuck the fabric and glue, a fresh razor blade to trim.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

*BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15&quot; IB*

Awesome!! I just got chills! Yep the CA glue deal is a great thing. Plus once it's nicely cured you can sand the bejeevies out of it. Should stick well to the plastic also. Then you get to let out your inner artist with some filler sculpting. 


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: BMW E28 Lightweight System w/ 15&quot; IB*



Babs said:


> Awesome!! I just got chills! Yep the CA glue deal is a great thing. Plus once it's nicely cured you can sand the bejeevies out of it. Should stick well to the plastic also. Then you get to let out your inner artist with some filler sculpting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol yeah, my inner artist is high on glue fumes...
Got both sides done with stage 1, please excuse the blurry pics.
The bottom edges needed a little more belt-sanding: 



Back side all done and trimmed:



The entire surface coated in CA glue:

















In an hour or so I'll start sculpting, but instead of body filler / bondo I've got a trick up my sleeve...


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

The CA glue was cured enough to start with the next stage: first round of sculpting. I wanted something that sands nicer than body filler / bondo, so I mixed up a batch of epoxy resin with talcum powder, micro glass bubbles and cotton flux. The glass content will make it sand easier, the consistency came out like icing. Yum.









Because of how long it took to sculpt, two batches were necessary. You can see that one piece is shiny while the other is very rough. The shiny one was the first batch and has more glass content, I put it on a little too thick. For the second batch I added more cotton flux than glass so it came out rougher, less runny, better.
It'll be ready for sanding and a second coat by tomorrow.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Got some banana plugs for the sub. Right now there's just bare wire going into the sub's terminals and I wanted a more finished connection.





I got the idea from another thread on here 'Dynex Best Buy Banana plugs' but I found these Mediabridge plugs better suited for my application than the Dynex.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

I've taken a break from working on the car for a few months but now I'm at it again. Still got lots of work left to do before the April NCSQ meet...
I haven't been happy with the sound at all yet, still is a little harsh and causes fatigue after a while. I've messed with the EQ for hours but always end back up at flat for the least harshness.
Today I wanted to try out the deck's auto time alignment feature as I've never messed with t/a and auto EQ yet.
I was in for a huge surprise, good LAWD what a difference the auto EQ made. It totally smoothed out the sound and made it super pleasant. The auto t/a however got it a little wrong, it sounded different than before but didn't raise the sound stage.
So I used a tape measurer and entered the distances from the driver's headrests to the individual speakers and BAM!!!!! Soundstage is right where it needs to be, sounds like the vocals are anchored in the middle of the windshield. A night and day difference.

To run the auto t/a I wedged the little UFO shaped mic between the headrest and seat, one side at a time with the corresponding setting in the deck's 'Position' menu. Then I placed it on a rod right in the middle of the seats as seen in the picture. At the time I didn't know I didn't need to do that but it's the only picture I took lol.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

My uncle's BMW E30 convertible is at my house for a full stereo build. So far I've pulled the entire interior including seats, every single plastic trim panel and the carpet. Everything but the dash.
It's getting sound deadened on the floor, doors and trunk. It's getting the same NVX 5 channel mounted in the trunk that I have in my beemer , Vifa tweeters into the original 'Premium Sound' sail panels, we're reusing the excellent factory woofers (Nokia I think, or ITT) in the front kicks and a Pioneer Deh80-prs will be running the front stage active. No rear fill.
Because it's a E30 convertible you can't just add a sub box in the trunk, we also don't want to use the one subwoofer box that is (or was) commercially available for this ride because it requires cutting sheet metal. So the easiest solution I came up with is to build two custom enclosures that will sit on the floor behind the front seats. Each will be loaded with a single 6.5" TangBand sub, both will be powered by the amp's 5th channel.

Some progress from retrofitting the Vifa tweets into the stock housings:
Basically I gutted them first by removing the old tweeters, then trimmed the housings with side cutters and a Dremel until the new tweets fit.

























I then used silicone to secure the new tweeters in place. Next up will be new grille cloth from parts-express.com and then the factory metal grilles can go back on.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Neat project! Have you considered putting the subs in the rear side panels instead? A little odd shaped, but you should be able to put baffles in, open up to the inner panel, and seal the back wave from the front.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

danno14 said:


> Neat project! Have you considered putting the subs in the rear side panels instead? A little odd shaped, but you should be able to put baffles in, open up to the inner panel, and seal the back wave from the front.


Yes that was my first idea, too. I did look behind the panel and it looks like a 5.25" speaker fits well there, IB could be doable there for sure. 
To be honest, after all the never ending IB work on my own car I was kinda itchin' for a different kind of sub project. I've never built a custom sub enclosure before and this one will involve fiberglass, too.
However, I'd love to see pics of what you suggested if they exist; did a quick search but couldn't find anything. Either way thanks for the input!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Nice work on those sails!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

KrautNotRice said:


> Yes that was my first idea, too. I did look behind the panel and it looks like a 5.25" speaker fits well there, IB could be doable there for sure.
> To be honest, after all the never ending IB work on my own car I was kinda itchin' for a different kind of sub project. I've never built a custom sub enclosure before and this one will involve fiberglass, too.
> However, I'd love to see pics of what you suggested if they exist; did a quick search but couldn't find anything. Either way thanks for the input!


Unfortunately didn't take pics.....but a 6.5" was super easy to fit. I thought about an 8", but the outer panel would have needed significant modification to accommodate and I didnt the have either the time, skillset, or inclination to spend the $$ for someone else to do it &#55357;&#56876;
I ended up with pods on the doors that held dual 6.5" Midbass and a 3" midrange was where I ended up. Never did truly sort out a sub for that car. 
Putting the amps in the cavity for the soft top (under where it goes when folded) worked nicely.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Babs said:


> Nice work on those sails!


Thanks, Scott!



danno14 said:


> Unfortunately didn't take pics.....but a 6.5" was super easy to fit. I thought about an 8", but the outer panel would have needed significant modification to accommodate and I didnt the have either the time, skillset, or inclination to spend the $$ for someone else to do it ��
> I ended up with pods on the doors that held dual 6.5" Midbass and a 3" midrange was where I ended up. Never did truly sort out a sub for that car.
> Putting the amps in the cavity for the soft top (under where it goes when folded) worked nicely.


Damn that sounds like an awesome system!! I've got my hands tied a little with this one as it has to appear stock and I can't cut / modify any panels. Luckily the 5.25" mid of the factory 'Premium Sound' has really decent midbass. The only 'fun' part of this build will be the subs.
But with the Deh80-prs' dsp with time alignment it'll have a great sound stage.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm sorry to announce that the beemer is no more. Rust and the accident damage, plus the shot paint and dash were all just too much for me to handle. I picked up a new Krautbomber and will report back here with proper pics.
All my old stereo will get transferred into the new whip, except the 15" sub for space reasons.
I'm selling off that 15" NVX VCW154 for real cheap, check the classifieds if anyone is interested.
Thank you for reading, and I'll update here soon with new pics.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Man, very sorry to hear about that. Excited to see the new ride though!!!


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## mescko (Jun 29, 2018)

Hey, K-not-R, fancy bumping into you here! I just jumped on board, and was surprised to see your post on the turntable thread (I've got 15 or so). I was happily reading through this thread, then you lower the boom. I had followed threads of yours on mye28. Well, that sucks. You commented on my thread about my Z4 shifter install (type 13554 in the search box). I am working on my own sub install, but I'm going with a custom bandpass with the port coming through the deck. I'm going period with my HU, cassette with changer control (yes, I record and listen to cassettes, I'm an analog dinosaur).


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

^^^ lol, it's a small world.
Thanks for the comments guys. Snapped some quick pics of the new Krautbomber, a '93 Mercedes 300te. The stereo build will start shortly.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

that thing looks like a tank


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Notloudenuf said:


> that thing looks like a tank


...a Tank with LOTS of windows. 

That's one thing that kind of bothers me about most modern vehicles these days...horrible side and rear visibility from the driver's seat!

With this vehicle you pretty much have "panoramic views". The older Subaru wagons and Forester come to mind for this reason as well. Great visibility all around while driving.

All of that glass may not be the best for a stereo install due to reflections. But one of my best sounding installs was on my old '93 Ford Aerostar EXT AWD van, and it had very similar wrap around windows, so there's that. 

Looks like a great vehicle for an extensive car audio install without having to worry too much about the weight this time. And no shortage of space! Interested to see what you do with this.

The dimensions of the vehicle should make it better for mid-bass and low bass acoustics as well. FYI, proper differential rear fill worked really well in my extended length van due to the added distance of the rear fill speakers to the listening position. The rear fill speakers were mounted just below the window on the L & R sides in the rear hatch. 

And smooth, articulate, up front bass response was quite easy to achieve as well. The smoothest bass response with the least amount of peaks/nulls/nodes at the listening position in my van was with the subwoofer(s) located in the far rear passenger-side corner and downfiring. YMMV.

Have fun with it.

BTW, just curious how many miles are on this old girl? :surprised:


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> ...a Tank with LOTS of windows.
> 
> That's one thing that kind of bothers me about most modern vehicles these days...horrible side and rear visibility from the driver's seat!
> 
> ...


Very interesting for sure. Thanks for the info.
This thing's got 280k miles on the clock and going strong.

I'm finally starting on the stereo build for this wagon. I've only been driving around with headphones for a year...
Not sure yet if I should start a new thread, or rename this one. Open to any input.



Luckily the stock speaker locations are convenient, and that makes a first for me.
There are upfiring dash speakers in the corner of the windshield, and 6" midbass woofers in small, sealed enclosures in the front doors. Not bad.

I've been thinking this over for a while now, there are just so many directions one could go in. I'd love input. The main goal is to use equipment I've got laying around (will list it all out). If needed, I could buy new mids, but that's about it.

*Equipment on hand:*
Deck: Pioneer deh80-prs
Amp: 5 channel NVX jad900.5
Tweetasaurus Rex: SB29s (the neo magnet NVX branded version)
Full rangers: several 3" full rangers on hand like TangBand W3-881sjf / 
Mids: sold most of the 5" mids I had. Gotta measure what fits into stock door pods and shop around. 6" Silver Flutes if I get lucky and they fit.

Now. Subs.
I've got a new in box JBL GT5-15 4 ohm
2 B&C 12tbx100 (2000 watts of midbass to make me throw up lunch)
2 new in box Dayton PA-380 15" pa woofers
sold all the other subs I had laying around


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

The dash openings fit up to 4.5" drivers, so would be great for a small coax (high passed around 300 - 450 hz), or a small 3" full ranger and no tweeter (high passed), or the mega tweeters ran 1.8k and up.

The door pods allegedly fit 6" or 6.5" mids, still gotta measure and confirm. Here's a quick pic of the door panel, as you can see the speaker location is a little far back, but my deck has time-alignment.



For sub location, there are numerous options: 
A) 3rd row footwell stealth subs, like dual shallow 10s, completely flush with trunk floor.
B) 2nd row footwells, both sides, twin enclosures with one B&C 12" midbass on each side in small vented 1.1 - 1.5 cf enclosure. Or with PA-380s instead
C) single 15" JBL GT5-15 on passenger side 2nd row footwell.

I like the 2nd row footwell idea because I could have the tops of the enclosures flush with the cargo floor. I'm permanently removing the 2nd row seat bottoms to always have max cargo space. I don't plan on having rear seat passengers.







I'd leave the 2nd row seat back folded down and the seat bottom removed. There's a nice nook for the amp to be mounted underneath the folded down seat back (where the brown stains are). (not poop, I swear)


The JBL:



The B&Cs:


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm leaning towards the dual B&Cs, but I've got some questions for the more knowledgable members. B&C optimized the 12tbx100 for very small, ported enclosures as midbass rather than subwoofers. They recommend a 33 liter (1.2 cf) ported to really high 55 - 60 hz. The FS is 43 hz though. If I follow the manufacturer's recommendation and port that high, could it fill out enough of the bottom end via cabin gain that I won't need an additional sub?
Alternatively, I could port lower (and go slightly larger) to around 44 hz and hope that bottom end extension is greater without losing too much punch.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

OK I was off by a bit, specs are above. Over on DIY Audio one of the members commented that B&C did a group build with the community using the 12tbx100 and they recommended a smaller enclosure and higher port tuning that what they actually recommend in the spec sheet. Some one had tried both and noted the smaller enclosure with higher tuning sounded tighter and better.


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Also, the amp I've got and plan on using only has 220 to 250 watts at 4 ohms for the subs. They are 95 db efficient each, so 98 for the two of them. They'd be getting about 125 watts each only.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Those would work out perfect then my friend! Great choice


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

KrautNotRice said:


> Not sure yet if I should start a new thread, or rename this one. Open to any input.


I would suggest starting a new thread and posting a link to that thread into this one. That way people searching for BMW find that and those searching for MB 300tank can find this car.

Good luck!


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

Pulled from B&C website, a simulation of their recommended box 1.4 cf ported to 43 hz:



Looks like actual efficiency in the bass band is around 90, so 93 for two of them.
Will 125 watts going to each of them be 'enough'? I guess only time will tell. If not, I'll get a dedicated mono amp and sell the jad900.5 for a 4 channel (class a/b).


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## KrautNotRice (Nov 2, 2015)

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...inues-mb-300te-wagon-content.html#post5702699

Started a new thread. I will slowly transfer everything relevant to the new build over. I would love everyone's input, comments, questions, concerns, jokes, advice, etc on the new build. Looking forward to applying everything I've learned and having a nice system in the 'new' Krautbomber. Thank all!


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