# Morel Ultimo 12" Review



## snaimpally

I recently had the good fortune to pick up a used Morel Ultimo 12" subwoofer from another forum member and thought I would share my impressions.

Before purchasing it, I did some due diligence by reading the various reviews available online.

Morel Ultimo 12 - Performance Driven - Car Audio & Electronics Magazine
Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Morel Ultimo 12
AVHub - INCAR - Product Reviews - Morel Ultimo 12? Subwoofer

The reviews are a bit of a Goldilocks tale because the CAE reviewer used a 1.5 cu ft sealed enclosure, the InCar reviewer used a 1.25 cu ft sealed enclosure, and the PasMag reviewer used a 0.75 cu ft sealed enclosure. The Passmag reviewer put it in a small box and then complained about the lack of output.

Currently I have the Ultimo 12 in a Goldwood 0.85 cu ft sealed enclosure from Parts Express. However, my friend Glenn (GLN305) and I agreed that based on the reviews, WinISD, and his listenign experiences, a 1.25 cu ft sealed box is probably optimal so I eventually plan to review it in a 1.25 cu ft box. But for now, my review is based on the Ultimo 12 in a 0.85 cu ft box.

*Physical Impressions*: Other than the carbon fiber and paper cone, which looks very cool, the sub itself is fairly unassuming. I will post pics. The magnet is not as big as say the DIYMA R12. Mounting depth is reasonable at less than 6". The sub hides the fact that it has a massive 5.1" voice coil. The reviews go on at length about the various technologies and design features of the sub, so I won't go into them in detail here.

*Listening Impressions*: After hooking the sub up in the .85 cu ft sealed enclosure I ran auto eq and ta on my 880PRS, and got in for a listen. My first impression was ... is it on? Is everything working? I can't hear it, WTF? Eventually I figured it out ... holy sh*t! So this is what "transparent" means.

The Ultimo 12 is incredibly fast. It sounds very lean and muscular. There is no flabbiness, no tubbiness. The notes are played and nothing more. As Glenn said, its almost boring to listen to. Except its not boring at all. The clarity and brevity of the Ultimo allows the mid-woofers to really shine and I can now hear all sorts of mid-bass stuff that was being obscured by the flab of other subs such as the DIYMA. I'll do a lot of comparing to the DIYMA because I had the DIYMA in my car for several weeks before I put the Ultimo in. I like the DIYMA; its quite musical and fun to listen to. But its not as accurate as the Morel. Not even close.

After listening to a few compilations I typically use to evaluate new gear, I loaded up my CD changer with some Brian Transeau (BT) because BT makes really great music that also plumbs the depths of a sub. One effect of the clarity of the Ultimo is that I can listen to stuff a lot louder because the bass is not overwhelming. Its interesting increasing the level of the sub because at no point does it seem to overwhelm the music like most subs do. Its remarkeably well behaved - I currently have the sub output set at 5 db above what auto eq and ta set it at and it sounds great. Any other sub would have completely overpowered and dominated the music to the point of making it unlistenable.

The whole experience of listening to the Ultimo has been very interesting because it has completely shattered my previous notion of what a "good" sub should sound like. Its very fast, very accurate, very neutral, very transparent, very clear. I think I am going to have a hard time listening to other subs now.

I'll post more thoughts on the Ultimo 12 as I go along, and especially once I get it into a 1.25 cu ft enclosure.


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## drtool

What amp did you use?


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## freemind

Thanks for the review. I have been wondering about that sub.


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## SkodaTeam

Great reviw, i want Ultimo now  snaimpally, can you compare Iridium 12 with Ultimo 12? So far, for me, Ir12 is what i call "fast, very accurate, very neutral, very transparent, very clear"


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## mvw2

Don't confuse accuracy with edginess. I'll agree the DIYMA is a bit mild on energy of note, but it doesn't lack in accuracy. It just won't give that razor's edge, impact, or energy that some other subs will give when presenting notes. As many have stated, the presentation of the DIYMA is more "buttery smooth." I just want to be clear on the difference between being able to play the information and presenting the information in a crisper, edgier way which may or may not be true to the original source material. My experience with the DIYMA is that it has no problem playing a relatively wide frequency range without coloration or becoming sluggish or muddy. It however does not provide the impact and note edge that I know many folks enjoy. 

My bro's Dayton Reference had a very crisp upper end response, great energy, very fun to listen to. It has a very light and crisp note. The Dayton also had that "why isn't my sub playing" quality to it. The notes were light and crisp enough that you didn't really hear the sub until it was playing rather loud. Your description of the Ultimo reminds me much of the Dayton. My Sonicraft has great impact, the kind of hit you feel in your chest, haven't run another sub that does it as well, awesome in-home sub, just shakes the room. The RE SE12 I had some time back had great bottom end articulation and note separation, especially for a ported design that could run down to 20Hz. Yet nothing I have listened to matches the DIYMA in transparency or colorlessness. Everything I've ever run has had "flaws." The DIYMA I do feel is too smooth in presentation. It doesn't quite present the impact and edge that could make it more likable. Its sensitivity is so-so and does require a bit of power to get any serious level of output. It does distort noticeably when underpowered and pushed for more.

Is the sensitivity really 83dB on the Ultimo? That's...pretty low.

It's great to hear about the transparency of the sub. It's one thing I really like from my hardware if I can get it. Hearing the music and not the driver is a really nice thing. Not a lot of pieces of hardware can do that well. Many get close, but very few really disappear.

Gah! There's so many subs I want to try. The Ultimo sounds need, want to listen to a Magv4 too. 

I have a test for you, if you have the hardware to allow you. Take the sub in the house and hook it up to your home theater. It's probably better to actually have a ported enclosure for this, but the test is the same regardless. It'll just sound a little anemic with less gain on the bottom end. If you can set HP/LP filters, aim a little higher, like 100Hz, 150Hz, something that actually forces play of the midbass range a little to indicate speed and articulation. You can do this in the car too really, but it's easier to hear things in the home. 

For transparency, the ultimate test is not to be able to localize the drivers playing music. In an ideal world, this would be the tweeter, mid, woofer, sub, everything. In this test, we're just looking at the sub. Play something, music, a movie, whatever. Sit 5ft. in front of the sub and look at it. Pull up a chair and just stare right at the thing. As it's playing, can you tell that it is creating the sound you hear? Can you "see" the sub playing the music? Stand up and walk around some. Can you localize the sub at all as the source of the bass information? To be a truly transparent driver, you should not be able to. Note that the wall, near by paneling, etc. will vibrate and may give a generalized area that the bass is coming from. You can play at milder volumes to help minimize this. In the end, you should not be able to say "that device is producing this sound." 

With the DIYMA, I can stand right in front of the thing playing music or during a moving playing bass information, and I can "see" it playing music at all. I can walk around, hear bass notes, booms, etc. and no information I receive ever tells me that that sound is coming from that sub sitting on the floor right in front of me. This is true transparency, the ability to make sound and look like it's doing nothing even if you're sitting 2 feet from it staring right at it. 

In my mind, that is an ideal trait I seek for all my hardware. In a car it's tough since the chassis resonates so easily, but that's part of the challenge.


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## Boostedrex

MVW2, PM'd you.


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## snaimpally

mvw2 said:


> It's great to hear about the transparency of the sub. It's one thing I really like from my hardware if I can get it. Hearing the music and not the driver is a really nice thing. Not a lot of pieces of hardware can do that well. Many get close, but very few really disappear.
> 
> Gah! There's so many subs I want to try. The Ultimo sounds need, want to listen to a Magv4 too.
> 
> I have a test for you, if you have the hardware to allow you. Take the sub in the house and hook it up to your home theater. It's probably better to actually have a ported enclosure for this, but the test is the same regardless. It'll just sound a little anemic with less gain on the bottom end. If you can set HP/LP filters, aim a little higher, like 100Hz, 150Hz, something that actually forces play of the midbass range a little to indicate speed and articulation. You can do this in the car too really, but it's easier to hear things in the home.
> 
> For transparency, the ultimate test is not to be able to localize the drivers playing music. In an ideal world, this would be the tweeter, mid, woofer, sub, everything. In this test, we're just looking at the sub. Play something, music, a movie, whatever. Sit 5ft. in front of the sub and look at it. Pull up a chair and just stare right at the thing. As it's playing, can you tell that it is creating the sound you hear? Can you "see" the sub playing the music? Stand up and walk around some. Can you localize the sub at all as the source of the bass information? To be a truly transparent driver, you should not be able to. Note that the wall, near by paneling, etc. will vibrate and may give a generalized area that the bass is coming from. You can play at milder volumes to help minimize this. In the end, you should not be able to say "that device is producing this sound."


As I said, the Diyma came highly reccomended by Corey (Dr.TelepathySQ) and it was fun to listen to but its nothing like the Ultimo. The Ultimo is very fast and introduces no artifacts of its own. If I get time I'll try your test but you really need to try an Ultimo. You really want understand what transparency means when it refers to a sub until you hear an Ultimo. I certainly thought I knew what transparency meant but the Ultimo was a real mind blowing experience.

Morel has just announced "consumer level" (eg more affordable) versions of the Ultimo, called the Ultimo SC in a 10 and a 12. Same voice coil and cone, just a cheaper basket as far as I can tell. Ask Troy of Axxis Audio, he is a vendor and an authorized dealer for Morel, and he has given members of this forum some tremendous discounts on stuff.


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## rommelrommel

I soooo wish this sub was shallower.


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## GLN305

Alot of people aren't seeing Shiv's review for what it is. I have owned many subwoofers, easily number over 200 and his sub is the most transparent sub I have ever heard in a car...ever. I have judged IASCA, USACi , AYA and EMMA and this statement still holds true. When you listen to music, the sub just makes the notes happen that it's supposed to, you can't hear any noise at all from it, can't localize where it may be. It sounds like the low frequencies are just ''there''. I highly recommend giving one a listen in a properly tuned and aligned vehicle.


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## snaimpally

rommelrommel said:


> I soooo wish this sub was shallower.


Mounting depth is 5.78" for the 12 and 5.52" for the Ultimo 10". That is not a huge mounting depth for a subwoofer, most 10" and 12" subs have a mounting depth of between 5"-6". Look at the RE XXX or JBL GTI if you want to wish for something shallower. The Morel Ultimois by no means a shallow mount sub, but you can mount it in fairly small enclosure (1.125 cu ft).

I have a small hatchback and need room for my gigs as a parttime musician and the Morel allows me enough space while providing the best bass I have ever heard coming from a sub.


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## snaimpally

GLN305 said:


> A lot of people aren't seeing Shiv's review for what it is. I have owned many subwoofers, easily number over 200 and his sub is the most transparent sub I have ever heard in a car...ever. I have judged IASCA, USACi , AYA and EMMA and this statement still holds true. When you listen to music, the sub just makes the notes happen that it's supposed to, you can't hear any noise at all from it, can't localize where it may be. It sounds like the low frequencies are just ''there''. I highly recommend giving one a listen in a properly tuned and aligned vehicle.


^^^ What he said. You don't know what a real sub should sound like until you hear the Ultimo. We all say "transparent" driver but the Ultimo is ... well... the ultimate in transparency.


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## Buzzman

The Ultimo 12 is also my preferred sub (see my review of the Hsu Research ASW-1203 and you will understand why), and is without doubt the best I have used. Based on my experience, given the size of the enclosure he used, Shiv has NOT heard the Morel at its best. He has sacrificed a significant amount of low frequency output by using such a small enclosure (which also requires greater amplifier power than a larger enclosure). In addition, to get the best performance out of it, you MUST have sufficient power on tap. The Ultimo really needs at least 1,000 watts RMS available to it to move its massive voice coil so it can wow you with its low frequency capabilities. I have a 2 Ohm version and am using it in a 1.5 cubic foot enclosure (which I think is better for it than a 1.25 cubic foot enclosure), low passed at 50 Hz with a 24 db slope. It is everything that Shiv described, + more. Its lack of coloration, fast transient response, tonal accuracy and precision, overall transparency, and incredible detail is something to behold. 

The new SC version of the Ultimo does NOT have the same motor or voice coil as the Ultimo. That is why it's XMax is lower and it handles less continuous power. It's more efficient than the Ultimo, thus making it able to be paired with more "real world" amplifiers to achieve optimal performance. 

I am quite familiar with the DIYMA 12, having used one myself. I replaced it with several subs that I found superior in a number of critical aspects. And of all these subs, I consider the Ultimo the best I have used.


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## Mooble

I hope to have a review soon also. I'll be hitting mine with 875 watts and I'm planning on a 1.75 cube enclosure, possibly with some fill.

The Ultimo is the only sub I've heard that really sounded different. It wasn't boomy. It was very controlled. It still hit hard, but there wasn't that residual boominess after a powerful note.


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## audiodepot101

I have used many subs, DD,Fi,Focal,IDQ 12, JL, just to name a few. The Ultimo.........................I have no words, You have to Demo it for ones self. I am so happy to have Morels Top Line. The Ultimo is a must have SQ Woofer.


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## rommelrommel

snaimpally said:


> Mounting depth is 5.78" for the 12 and 5.52" for the Ultimo 10". That is not a huge mounting depth for a subwoofer, most 10" and 12" subs have a mounting depth of between 5"-6". Look at the RE XXX or JBL GTI if you want to wish for something shallower. The Morel Ultimois by no means a shallow mount sub, but you can mount it in fairly small enclosure (1.125 cu ft).
> 
> I have a small hatchback and need room for my gigs as a parttime musician and the Morel allows me enough space while providing the best bass I have ever heard coming from a sub.


I know it's not bad, I (and many others) have specific depth problems due to the cars we drive. I love morel products and would run one of these in a second if I could fit it in my car.


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## snaimpally

Buzzman said:


> The Ultimo 12 is also my preferred sub (see my review of the Hsu Research ASW-1203 and you will understand why), and is without doubt the best I have used. Based on my experience, given the size of the enclosure he used, Shiv has NOT heard the Morel at its best. He has sacrificed a significant amount of low frequency output by using such a small enclosure (which also requires greater amplifier power than a larger enclosure). In addition, to get the best performance out of it, you MUST have sufficient power on tap. The Ultimo really needs at least 1,000 watts RMS available to it to move its massive voice coil so it can wow you with its low frequency capabilities. I have a 2 Ohm version and am using it in a 1.5 cubic foot enclosure (which I think is better for it than a 1.25 cubic foot enclosure), low passed at 50 Hz with a 24 db slope. It is everything that Shiv described, + more. Its lack of coloration, fast transient response, tonal accuracy and precision, overall transparency, and incredible detail is something to behold.
> 
> The new SC version of the Ultimo does NOT have the same motor or voice coil as the Ultimo. That is why it's XMax is lower and it handles less continuous power. It's more efficient than the Ultimo, thus making it able to be paired with more "real world" amplifiers to achieve optimal performance.
> 
> I am quite familiar with the DIYMA 12, having used one myself. I replaced it with several subs that I found superior in a number of critical aspects. And of all these subs, I consider the Ultimo the best I have used.


Don, its all about fitting in to a particular setup. I think your setup is atypical as you have 10" drivers in your doors so you can afford to lowpass the sub significantly. I have a 2 way setup with 7" woofers in my doors so I can't afford to cross at 50 Hz. Based on that I chose an enclosure volume of 1.25 cu ft net (1.35 cu ft gross) as the optimal enclosure for my setup. I think this just highlights the importance of taking into account the setup the sub will be placed in when deciding the box size etc. Rather than right or wrong, its what works best in a particular setup. My HU provides auto eq so between that and cabin gain, I don't think I'm losing much in terms of bass extension.

Thanks for clarifying the differences between the Ultimo and the Ultimo SC. I am going to be putting signicantly more power on the Ultimo, possibly even class A/B, so I will update this review when that happens.


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## Buzzman

snaimpally said:


> Don, its all about fitting in to a particular setup. I think your setup is atypical as you have 10" drivers in your doors so you can afford to lowpass the sub significantly. I have a 2 way setup with 7" woofers in my doors so I can't afford to cross at 50 Hz. Based on that I chose an enclosure volume of 1.25 cu ft net (1.35 cu ft gross) as the optimal enclosure for my setup. I think this just highlights the importance of taking into account the setup the sub will be placed in when deciding the box size etc. Rather than right or wrong, its what works best in a particular setup. My HU provides auto eq so between that and cabin gain, I don't think I'm losing much in terms of bass extension.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying the differences between the Ultimo and the Ultimo SC. I am going to be putting signicantly more power on the Ultimo, possibly even class A/B, so I will update this review when that happens.


Shiv, actually, I have 8" woofers in my doors, not 10". But, to address your central point, I agree that system choices have to take into consideration your overall set-up. However, the set-up that is optimal for a particular component should NOT be deviated from for obvious reasons. Most importantly, my remarks were directed at your use of a .85 cubic foot enclosure (as stated in your initial post above). In this post you state that you are now using a 1.35 cubic foot enclosure. Big difference there! You are now using an enclosure which gives you a Qtc that results in a much flatter response, AND deeper bass extension, than the smaller enclosure. I am confident that having heard the differences you will not be returning to that smaller enclosure, correct?  

I have used an enclosure close to the size you are currently using, and went to one slightly larger. I found that there were benefits. Before you dismiss using a larger enclosure, I suggest you try it first. You can get the same enclosure I am using from Sonic Electronix for $27 shipped!! That’s not much of an investment to find out whether you will experience benefits from using a larger enclosure. 

Regarding the low pass frequency choice for the sub, I don’t know your current settings, or what you have tried. But, don't dismiss something without trying it. The low pass crossover frequency and slope I have chosen were based on extensive experimentation to find what gave me, in my car, minimal localization of the sub, and the best sense of upfront sub-bass and integration with the front stage, so that the listener gets as much as possible the sense that he/she is hearing the performers in front of him/her. It's not the size of the midbass drivers that determines how low you can high pass your midbass drivers, or how high you should low pass your sub. First, it’s the capabilities of the speaker, and what type of installation is necessary to obtain optimal performance. Just because a driver is large doesn’t mean that it will perform better in the bass/midbass region than a smaller sized driver. For example, I have a pair of Critical Mass MB82 midbass drivers. If they are mounted in a door without being placed in a sealed enclosure of at least .2 cubic feet, they will not perform well. You will be much happier with a 6.5 inch woofer designed for an infinite baffle application. Put the Critical Mass woofer in the sealed enclosure and drop in your doors, and you are grinning from ear to ear. Next, you have to consider your install. You might have a midbass driver mounted in your doors that is fully capable of playing down to 40 Hz with low distortion and excellent output. However, if your door is not well damped you will get such bad resonances that you will be forced to high pass that driver MUCH higher than you might otherwise want to. My friend Jose ‘s (Veloze) Toyota Tacoma truck has a pair of 6.5 inch Phass mid bass woofers mounted in the doors. One setting we really like has the midbass highpassed at 63Hz, 24 db slope, and the Phass 10 inch sub is low passed at 50 Hz, 18 db slope. It works. Localization of the sub is minimized, and the subbass is seamlessly integrated into the front stage. So, the point is, try it, you might be surprised with the results given YOUR particular set-up.


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## Mooble

I've had the Ultimo installed now for a week and I must say that it's be best sub I've ever heard, but I am still wondering why we are so fascinated with a driver that barely plays one single octave. The bass is definitely tighter, but I certainly can't hear it on most songs unless they have a pronounced bass track. If I listened to nothing but Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over, I'd be in heaven. Otherwise, the money would be much better spent on a nicer front stage. If you have tuned and tweaked absolutely everything in your car and have nothing left to do, then I would consider stepping up to something like the Ultimo. If you're not completely obsessed with SQ like some of us are, I'd recommend getting a Dayton HO and calling it a day.


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## snaimpally

Mooble said:


> I've had the Ultimo installed now for a week and I must say that it's be best sub I've ever heard, but I am still wondering why we are so fascinated with a driver that barely plays one single octave. The bass is definitely tighter, but I certainly can't hear it on most songs unless they have a pronounced bass track. If I listened to nothing but Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over, I'd be in heaven. Otherwise, the money would be much better spent on a better front stage. If you have tuned and tweaked absolutely everything in your car and have nothing left to do, then I would consider stepping up to something like the Ultimo. If you're not completely obsessed with SQ like some of us are, I'd recommend getting a Dayton HO and calling it a day.


We are fascinated with subs because the bass notes should have impact when listening to music - try running your setup without a sub for a week. The reason you can't hear it on most songs is because of how transparent the Ultimo is - it blends so well that you think it isn't adding anything. Again, try turning off your sub and see what a difference it makes. The transparency of the Ultimo is misleading - you may think its not doing much but in fact its doing a lot but very transparently.


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## snaimpally

Buzzman said:


> You can get the same enclosure I am using from Sonic Electronix for $27 shipped!! That’s not much of an investment to find out whether you will experience benefits from using a larger enclosure.


Alright Don, point me to the enclosure ... I am willing to try it.  I'll also try playing with my corssovers a bit. I checked Sonic and the closest I found was 1.45 cu ft. Shipping is a little more to me in TX than it is to you in CA I suspect.


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## GLN305

We love to have solid sub bass because it's fun and makes the music enjoyable. If we forget about the fun aspect of car audio then we might as well leave the stereo stock and only listen at home with a multi thousand dollar setup and technically pick apart the music.


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## Buzzman

snaimpally said:


> Alright Don, point me to the enclosure ... I am willing to try it.  I'll also try playing with my corssovers a bit. I checked Sonic and the closest I found was 1.45 cu ft. Shipping is a little more to me in TX than it is to you in CA I suspect.


Shiv: Here is the link: Sonic Sub Box: 1SL12-1.4 (GRAY CARPET) (1sl1214-gray) 12" Sealed Subwoofer Enclosures Sealed Subwoofer Enclosures Car Subwoofer Enclosures Car Subwoofer Installation & Accessories Car Audio/Video Installation & Accessories Car Audio, Video, & GPS Nav

Shipping to me was free, but I plugged in your zip code and shipping would be $33.  More than the price of the enclosure. I guess UPS pays its workers more than the factory in China that made these enclosures. Anyway, if you want to try it, it's not a huge investment. Add some fiberglass, and accounting for sub displacement, you will have an effective net internal volume of slightly more than 1.5 cubic feet.


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## audiodepot101

Mooble said:


> I've had the Ultimo installed now for a week and I must say that it's be best sub I've ever heard, but I am still wondering why we are so fascinated with a driver that barely plays one single octave. The bass is definitely tighter, but I certainly can't hear it on most songs unless they have a pronounced bass track. If I listened to nothing but Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over, I'd be in heaven. Otherwise, the money would be much better spent on a nicer front stage. If you have tuned and tweaked absolutely everything in your car and have nothing left to do, then I would consider stepping up to something like the Ultimo. If you're not completely obsessed with SQ like some of us are, I'd recommend getting a Dayton HO and calling it a day.



I feel you. Hey want to sell it


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## Mooble

audiodepot101 said:


> I feel you. Hey want to sell it


Nope, I AM one of those obsessed people who wants to hear every note perfectly. If there is a single song that cannot be played properly on my system, then I have more work to do.


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## Buzzman

Mooble said:


> Nope, I AM one of those obsessed people who wants to hear every note perfectly. If there is a single song that cannot be played properly on my system, then I have more work to do.


:laugh: Hey Mooble, you answered your own post! And, in doing so, I guess it's fair to say that the Dayton won't be displacing the Morel in your system anytime soon, correct?


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## savagebee

GLN305 said:


> We love to have solid sub bass because it's fun and makes the music enjoyable. If we forget about the fun aspect of car audio then we might as well leave the stereo stock and only listen at home with a multi thousand dollar setup and technically pick apart the music.



'nuff said


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## mariodada

Thanks for the review. I just got my ultimo 12 hooked up it is in a 1.5 sealed enclosure,I have a Hifonics zeds vl bridged and I could not be happier.This sub is amazing and it is much more efficient than I thought it would be,I had to turn down the bass on my dql8 I was thinking I was going to need more power,I was ready to buy the new Zed Kronos,I even bought 2 ultimos because I've been running 2 boston 12.5 Les,but one ultimo is plenty the other is just sitting in the closet,if anyone needs one let me know.


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## Buzzman

mariodada said:


> Thanks for the review. I just got my ultimo 12 hooked up it is in a 1.5 sealed enclosure,I have a Hifonics zeds vl bridged and I could not be happier.This sub is amazing and it is much more efficient than I thought it would be,I had to turn down the bass on my dql8 I was thinking I was going to need more power,I was ready to buy the new Zed Kronos,I even bought 2 ultimos because I've been running 2 boston 12.5 Les,but one ultimo is plenty the other is just sitting in the closet,if anyone needs one let me know.


Hey, glad you are enjoying the sub. Which version is yours, 4 Ohm or 2 Ohm impedance?


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## audiodepot101

mariodada said:


> Thanks for the review. I just got my ultimo 12 hooked up it is in a 1.5 sealed enclosure,I have a Hifonics zeds vl bridged and I could not be happier.This sub is amazing and it is much more efficient than I thought it would be,I had to turn down the bass on my dql8 I was thinking I was going to need more power,I was ready to buy the new Zed Kronos,I even bought 2 ultimos because I've been running 2 boston 12.5 Les,but one ultimo is plenty the other is just sitting in the closet,if anyone needs one let me know.


 $$$$$$? how much


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## mariodada

Make me an offer i cant refuse.


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## lucas569

mariodada said:


> Make me an offer i cant refuse.


im not intirested in the sub but do you have references? just looking out for my shipmates...


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## remeolb

snaimpally (or anyone else), do you have any experience with JL's W7 woofers? I'm very interested in how they compare to the Morel Ultimo. I currently own two 10 W7's but I just ordered a set of Morel Elate Limited Edition two-ways and I am seriously considering going Ultimo for the sub(s).


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## mariodada

lucas569 said:


> im not intirested in the sub but do you have references? just looking out for my shipmates...


 I am new here,but im not here to rip anyone off, on ebay i am mariodada as well as audiogon,paypal protects the buyer and selller right? how is business done on this forum? I am not allowed to post in the classifieds? Like i said i have a brand new ultimo 12 4ohm in the unopened box someone is going to get a great deal on this sub ,and this is one place i found were people know what good gear is thats why i joined.


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## remeolb

I've heard (from Morel) that the 4 ohm Ultimo 12 is very tough to drive. I was interested in a 2 ohm model.


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## snaimpally

remeolb said:


> I've heard (from Morel) that the 4 ohm Ultimo 12 is very tough to drive. I was interested in a 2 ohm model.


I have a small car (Maxda Speed 3 hatch). Before the Ultimo I was running a ported Soundstream Exact 10. My HU, the 800PRS, puts out very low voltages. I certainly lost efficiency going from ported to sealed but the Ultimo can get quite loud. I have been driving it with an old school Cadence A7Hc which is rated at 500 watts @ 4 ohms, though it probably does a bit more than that. The auto eq and t/a of my HU sets the sub level to -16 db. Because of the loud exhaust, I usually bump this up 3 db to -13 db. Still plenty loud.

I would say you need something that will actually do around 700 watts or more at 4 ohms and 12 volts. The Clarion DPX11551 does 850 watts at 4 ohms at 14.4 volts. My Cadence recently died and so I popped the Clarion in and it handles the Ultimo fairly well.

If you are interested, I have an Arc Audio 2500XXK amp that is rated for 1050 watts at 4 ohms that I am selling. I bought it for the Morel but it won't fit in my application.


----------



## snaimpally

remeolb said:


> snaimpally (or anyone else), do you have any experience with JL's W7 woofers? I'm very interested in how they compare to the Morel Ultimo. I currently own two 10 W7's but I just ordered a set of Morel Elate Limited Edition two-ways and I am seriously considering going Ultimo for the sub(s).


I have heard the JL W7s but not in my car. The thing is, with every other sub I have heard, the sub contributes something to the sound. The Ultimo does not. It is totally transparent. I have raised the sub level to 6 db over what the auto eq and ta set it at and you still can't hear that a sub is present. The Ultimo plays the notes and then disappears.


----------



## mariodada

That's what i love about it,i don't wan't anything added to the music, i want to hear the music the way it was recorded.I don't want to hear any added coloration,this is one amazing sub but not for the window shakers.


----------



## snaimpally

This excerpt from a review in Car Audio and Electronics sums up the Morel Ultimo 12:

"The driver was so transparent at the beginning of this track that I had to check if it was still activated. I toggled the dash-mounted remote wire switch for the amplifier a couple of times in amazement. Kick drums were high located along the dashboard and blended extremely well with the notes from the bass guitar. I was hard-pressed to find any flaws in the Ultimo 12 on this track. This is how a subwoofer should perform-adding body and fullness to an audio selection without sacrificing tonality, disrupting clarity of other instruments or over-shadowing the vocals."


----------



## remeolb

Yeah the Morel 12 definitely seems like the sub for me. I will probably still get the two ohm version and get the Genesis Profile Sub Ultra to drive it. It won't match my Dual Mono looks-wise but the guys at Morel say it drives the Ultimo very well.


----------



## lucas569

what id like to know is what makes this sub so transperant? (hardware wise)


----------



## Buzzman

remeolb said:


> I've heard (from Morel) that the 4 ohm Ultimo 12 is very tough to drive. I was interested in a 2 ohm model.


It's not any "tougher" to drive than the 2 Ohm version. Their rated sensitivity is the same. The problem, if you want to call it that, is that there are VERY few amplifiers capable of producing 1000 watts or more (which the Ultimo really needs for optimum performance in the lower frequencies) with a 4 Ohm load. Most amps are able to do that at 2 Ohms, or 1 Ohm. Thus, if you have the 4 Ohm version of the Ultimo, you will have fewer options available to you for amplification that can properly drive the Ultimo. You can get by with less power (and I have used it with less), but trust me, you will not be hearing the full capabilities of this sub. Put on large scale orchestral music and you will hear what I mean. The downside to operating your amp with a 2 Ohm load is more heat and current requirements. So you better make sure your battery and alternator are up to the task.


----------



## Buzzman

lucas569 said:


> what id like to know is what makes this sub so transperant? (hardware wise)


 It's not a "hardware" question. The sub reproduces bass notes with very little distortion and coloration.


----------



## lucas569

i just keep hearing how some have to double check if its still on, that seems odd to me is all, i can def tell when bass is present on live performances...


----------



## fish

lucas569 said:


> i just keep hearing how some have to double check if its still on, that seems odd to me is all, i can def tell when bass is present on live performances...


That does bring up a very good point... which I'm curious to read the response to.


----------



## nautilus

Using one too, and it can really go low, 10hz ! Irresistible  :tongue2::earmuffs: If you into soundtracks, this sub can really perform effortlessly. Currently powering them with just a 2ch x 150W Helix Competition A2 amp.
Amazing !


----------



## sqoverspl

lucas569 said:


> i just keep hearing how some have to double check if its still on, that seems odd to me is all, i can def tell when bass is present on live performances...


Because it fits so cleanly into the front stage. Also in a live performance the speakers arent as good


----------



## Mooble

Buzzman said:


> It's not a "hardware" question. The sub reproduces bass notes with very little distortion and coloration.


I think the question he is driving at is what spec is responsible for this and how to compare that spec to other subs. To that I would say that most of the blending is dependent on tuning, not the sub. If you have a sub tuned low with a very steep slope, it's going to be obvious when the sub is playing vs the front stage etc.

Here is my take: the one thing that I think is remarkably different about the Ultimo is the "tightness" of the bass. As I mentioned previously, the bass is more natural, not boomy. If you have a boomy sub, it will sound very different than your midbass playing the same frequency. In that regard, the Ultimo is kinda like a super midbass. It sounds like a midbass, but with much more output. That is why it blends well. You don't hear that trademark sub boominess which is very easy to pick out.

My question is this: what specs are responsible for bass "tightness?" Is it a combination of motor strength and moving mass? I don't think so because I have used subs with more powerful motors AND lighter cones and they were still boomy. Maybe it's the cone material. Why does the Ultimo sound so un-boomy? How can we quantify that characteristic?


----------



## lucas569

also does the massive coil play a part in the sum?


----------



## lucas569

oh AND what similarities does this have to the dayton ho cause ive read they sound alot alike...


----------



## akbarelamin

Great questions! Ive had the privilege to listened to the Ultimo in Buzzman's car at the Sound of in Riverside, Ca. and all I can say is I'm getting one! I've had the kicker solobaric 12, IDQ 10's, Rockford Fosgate 15's and presently I'm using a Arc Audio 12 and nothing, and I do mean nothing, Ive heard sound so buttery smooth when it comes to blending with your front stage. I think the low end boom some are referring to has a lot to do with the enclosure type, because Buzzman's car definitely had boom!


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## Mooble

Yes, but it's the quality of boom. Most subs sound like thunder to me. The note is struck and then there is a residual boom that echoes a couple times before dissipating. It's not that the Ultimo doesn't strike with authority. It does--but then it stops. There is no echoing thunder. That is what separates it from other subs. All other subs just sound sloppy next to the Ultimo. The best way for me to describe the sound is a super midbass.

I also want to hear it compared to a Dayton HO. Two people near me have the Daytons. We will test them side by side in our subwoofer showdown.


----------



## audiodepot101

Mooble, You've hit it just right, Its hard to desribe unless you experience it yourself. The 9' drivers are the same, best mid-bass that I have ever heard! I had the scanspeak, the Dynaudio mw182, the scanspeak are good, but the morel rocks! the dynaudio just does not compare.


----------



## Buzzman

Mooble said:


> I think the question he is driving at is what spec is responsible for this and how to compare that spec to other subs. To that I would say that most of the blending is dependent on tuning, not the sub. If you have a sub tuned low with a very steep slope, it's going to be obvious when the sub is playing vs the front stage etc.
> 
> Here is my take: the one thing that I think is remarkably different about the Ultimo is the "tightness" of the bass. As I mentioned previously, the bass is more natural, not boomy. If you have a boomy sub, it will sound very different than your midbass playing the same frequency. In that regard, the Ultimo is kinda like a super midbass. It sounds like a midbass, but with much more output. That is why it blends well. You don't hear that trademark sub boominess which is very easy to pick out.
> 
> My question is this: what specs are responsible for bass "tightness?" Is it a combination of motor strength and moving mass? I don't think so because I have used subs with more powerful motors AND lighter cones and they were still boomy. Maybe it's the cone material. Why does the Ultimo sound so un-boomy? How can we quantify that characteristic?


It's the sum of the parts: stiff, lightweight cone, low moving mass, strong motor, well damped chassis, low voice coil inductance, reasonable Xmax, etc. The "tightness" and ability to disappear that everyone references is, in my opinion due largely to the following: 1. the ability of the sub to reach Xmax, and recover quickly, yielding great transient response, and no overhang of the notes played; 2) then add extremely low distortion, resulting in uncannny clarity and lack of coloration of the notes played.


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## audiodepot101

Buzzman i love the word used there to desribe the Ultimo (uncanny clarity) very good choice of words, because it almost seems unreal.


----------



## remeolb

Has anyone heard the 10" or 8" Ultimo?


----------



## audiodepot101

Morel does not make a 8"


----------



## Mooble

10" is the smallest Ultimo, but you could get an Elate 9 or Supremo 9. They are not the same animal, however.


----------



## audiodepot101

Those 9's are a mid-bass driver able to be xover up to 26K but the best complement for the Ultimo


----------



## npdang

Do we have any data on this sub? The whitepaper didn't really excite me. From what I recall the large coil/double magnet motors that Morel favors generally doesn't perform all that well distortion wise. 

I used to own the old Morel swr1, which was TC built and that was a superb sub. It looks as if the Ultimo is more of a larger built version of their traditional midwoofers than a true sub.

Some photos of my old swr-1.


----------



## Mooble

^^^ Seems to be the same thing as the old Renaissance (Morel) Cannon made by TC. I let one get away on ebay for under $150 IIRC. 

The Ultimo does sound like magic to the ear, however. It sounds much better than low distortion XBL subs that I've heard.


----------



## npdang

That's certainly plausible. Under normal listening conditions low xmax, high efficiency subs sound to send better than "true" subwoofers. If you do a matched spl tone test though... they tend to sound alot dirtier.


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> Do we have any data on this sub? The whitepaper didn't really excite me.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the published specifications for the ULTIMO 12:
> 
> General Data
> Overall dimensions DxH Ø 305mm (12”) X 146.9mm (5.78”)
> Power handling RMS P 1000 W
> Transient power 10ms 3000 W
> Sensitivity 2.83 Vrms / 1M 88 dB
> Sensitivity 1W / 1M 85 dB
> Frequency response 10-900 Hz.
> Cone material Carbon-fiber laminated paper
> Net weight 6.7 Kg. (15 lb.)
> Driver Displacement 2.6 Lit (0.09 cu.ft)
> Voice Coil and Magnet Parameters
> Voice Coil Diameter 130 mm (5.1”)
> Voice coil height 37mm (1.45”)
> Voice coil former Aluminum
> Voice coil wire Hexatech Aluminum
> Number of layers 2
> Max. Linear excursion X ± 12.5mm (0.5”) (Each way)
> Magnet system type Double magnet vented
> HE-Magnetic gap height HE 12mm (0.5”)
> B flux density B 6.4 T
> BL product BXL 13.0 T.M
> Electrical Data
> Nominal Impedance Z 4.0 Ohm 2.0 Ohm
> DC Resistance RE 3.7 Ohm 1.7 Ohm
> Voice coil inductance
> @1KHz LBM 1.0 MH 0.30 MH
> T-S Parameters
> Suspension Compliance
> CMS 0.40 0.80
> Mechanical Q Factor QMS 1.372 1.238
> Electrical Q Factor QES 0.46 0.49
> Total Q Factor QTS 0.345 0.36
> Mechanical Resistance RMS 14.2 14.4
> Moving Mass MMS 143 gr. 135 gr.
> Resonant Frequency FS 20 Hz 22 Hz
> Eq. Cas Air Load VAS 105 Lit (3.71 cu.ft)
> Effective Piston Area SD 0.0471 m²
> 
> 
> 
> npdang said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what I recall the large coil/double magnet motors that Morel favors generally doesn't perform all that well distortion wise.
> 
> 
> 
> The sub's performance, with music, belies that theory however. This sub is so clean and transparent, and without coloration, it is unlike anything else I have heard. For me, it is rather special to hear bass notes reproduced with such clarity.
> 
> 
> 
> npdang said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to own the old Morel swr1, which was TC built and that was a superb sub. It looks as if the Ultimo is more of a larger built version of their traditional midwoofers than a true sub.
> 
> Some photos of my old swr-1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Ultimo might not be a big, beefy sub with a gargantuan double stacked ferrite magnet, but in my car it reproduces 18 Hz pipe organ notes. That to me is a true sub.  I also love the fact that it's so compact and light. I don't particularly care to get a hernia lifting a sub.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## audiodepot101

Buzzman I agree, while still having total respect for npdang, You can't here paper. The real world have to apply when when dealing with sound. That sub sounds nothing like what he is describing on his paper work.


----------



## remeolb

audiodepot101 said:


> Morel does not make a 8"


They do actually. It's just not on the website. Retail is $700 for it and it has the same power handling as the 10" and 12". Has anyone heard the 10"?


----------



## audiodepot101

The 10 and the 12" has the same sound just on a smaller scale. and where is the morel 8? you have Pic's or the site? of the 8" Ultimo?


----------



## npdang

Thanks, although I was actually looking for performance data not small signal parameters.

Yes, you can actually "hear paper"... in fact the key is to understand what you're measuring when correlating it to what you hear. If you for example measure a +10db peak at 40hz, it would be simply wrong to say that you can't hear that peak simply because you measured it.

Not to disparage any reviews as everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, however I've been down this road many times myself where what you hear isn't what you think. Just because you like the sound of something, doesn't necessarily mean it's actually low distortion, low coloration, or that you're hearing 18hz instead of higher order distortion products, etc. The "real world" as so many people like to say is extraordinarily complex and full of many other confounding factors that interfere with what you're hearing... the listening environment, the source material, the setup, install, tuning, musical preferences, room interactions, etc. 

With all due respect to the OP, 99% of the time when I hear a sub review such as this, it's my humble opinion that the review is judging more the natural integration of the driver into their system rather than the driver itself. This is easily illustrated by turning off all the other drivers in the car and playing the sub by itself... you rarely hear anyone describe a sub playing by itself as "tight", "clean", or anything similar in these instances.

A simple matched spl tone test, or a multi-tone listening tests which takes the environment out of the equation, is IMHO a more even playing field to test "only" the sub's performance. 

At the end of the day though nothing else matters except that you are happy with your system... however sometimes it helps to have a deeper understanding of what you're hearing as it can help with making equipment choices in the future. There's a reason why I've owned over a hundred different subs over the years... it's because I'm a slow learner and it took me THAT long to figure out that the sub itself was never really the key to achieving the sound quality that I was looking for.


----------



## audiodepot101

npdang said:


> Thanks, although I was actually looking for performance data not small signal parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all due respect to the OP, 99% of the time when I hear a sub review such as this, it's my humble opinion that the review is judging more the natural integration of the driver into their system rather than the driver itself. This is easily illustrated by turning off all the other drivers in the car and playing the sub by itself... you rarely hear anyone describe a sub playing by itself as "tight", "clean", or anything similar in these instances.
> 
> Its interesting that you should say that ,because that is exactly how I listen and tune my system. I listen to each driver one by one, and let my ears be the judge as to the frequencies that a drivers does well in, and not so well in. I will listen to a tweeter paying from various frequencies, the same with a mid-range and mid,bass to determine how high it can go and how loud it can go before hearing audible break up, the same with a sub. when you use car audio that same driver sound is going to very from car to car, as for the home the acoustics remain the same. So yes I am one of the few that takes the time and listen to each driver by themselves to determine if it will do well in my application. Just a question have you ever had the chance to listen and compare these drivers side by side? see most of us are looking for that type of review, and personally I have been in this industry for over 25years, when the Concord Hu was the best thing smoking with a built in EQ back in 1981 so I have heard many, many drivers , amps and HU in my day, and still continue the buy and demo all the latest car audio gear.


----------



## remeolb

audiodepot101 said:


> The 10 and the 12" has the same sound just on a smaller scale. and where is the morel 8? you have Pic's or the site? of the 8" Ultimo?


The specs for it are posted in the Ultimo manual here:

http://www.morelhifi.com/support/pdf/mobile/Ultimo Manual.pdf

I just called Morel and they actually aren't shipping it until the first of the year.


----------



## audiodepot101

Oh I see this is the new add to the Ultimo line, I thought you meant that is has always been out. I will have to get some in


----------



## Mooble

audiodepot101 said:


> npdang said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you should say that ,because that is exactly how I listen and tune my system. I listen to each driver one by one, and let my ears be the judge as to the frequencies that a drivers does well in, and not so well in. I will listen to a tweeter paying from various frequencies, the same with a mid-range and mid,bass to determine how high it can go and how loud it can go before hearing audible break up, the same with a sub. when you use car audio that same driver sound is going to very from car to car, as for the home the acoustics remain the same. So yes I am one of the few that takes the time and listen to each driver by themselves to determine if it will do well in my application. Just a question have you ever had the chance to listen and compare these drivers side by side? see most of us are looking for that type of review, and personally I have been in this industry for over 25years, when the Concord Hu was the best thing smoking with a built in EQ back in 1981 so I have heard many, many drivers , amps and HU in my day, and still continue the buy and demo all the latest car audio gear.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm the same way. The Ultimo does blend well, but it's not my tuning that made it sound that way. It actually sounds different, far different than any other sub I have heard. I have heard a lot of great subs, but all of them seem "boomy" by comparison to the Ultimo.
> 
> I'd love for ndpang to give us his subjective impressions of the Ultimo. Surely someone near him has one he could audition.
Click to expand...


----------



## audiodepot101

Where in Ca is he?


----------



## remeolb

audiodepot101 said:


> Oh I see this is the new add to the Ultimo line, I thought you meant that is has always been out. I will have to get some in


Yeah I actually thought it was already out.


----------



## npdang

Would love to hear it sometime. I'm still very much a pragmatist though. To me when I hear "boomy"... first thought that pops in my mind is tuning or room issue. In my experience the difference between a good/bad sub is the texture of the bass.. whether or not it sounds fuzzy or or pure, if that makes any sense. Again, I find simple single or multi-tone listening tests best for gauging that quality. I'm in Orange County btw... Irvine area.


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> Thanks, although I was actually looking for performance data not small signal parameters.
> 
> Yes, you can actually "hear paper"... in fact the key is to understand what you're measuring when correlating it to what you hear. If you for example measure a +10db peak at 40hz, it would be simply wrong to say that you can't hear that peak simply because you measured it.
> 
> Not to disparage any reviews as everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, however I've been down this road many times myself where what you hear isn't what you think. Just because you like the sound of something, doesn't necessarily mean it's actually low distortion, low coloration, or that you're hearing 18hz instead of higher order distortion products, etc. The "real world" as so many people like to say is extraordinarily complex and full of many other confounding factors that interfere with what you're hearing... the listening environment, the source material, the setup, install, tuning, musical preferences, room interactions, etc.
> 
> With all due respect to the OP, 99% of the time when I hear a sub review such as this, it's my humble opinion that the review is judging more the natural integration of the driver into their system rather than the driver itself. This is easily illustrated by turning off all the other drivers in the car and playing the sub by itself... you rarely hear anyone describe a sub playing by itself as "tight", "clean", or anything similar in these instances.
> 
> A simple matched spl tone test, or a multi-tone listening tests which takes the environment out of the equation, is IMHO a more even playing field to test "only" the sub's performance.
> 
> At the end of the day though nothing else matters except that you are happy with your system... however sometimes it helps to have a deeper understanding of what you're hearing as it can help with making equipment choices in the future. There's a reason why I've owned over a hundred different subs over the years... it's because I'm a slow learner and it took me THAT long to figure out that the sub itself was never really the key to achieving the sound quality that I was looking for.


I fear this thread will turn into one where we are debating, again, whether what test measurements show is what you hear, or whether what you think you are hearing is what you are really hearing. I hope not, but feel compelled to chime in. I don't think anyone will disagree with the position that factors external to a subwoofer (or any speaker for that matter), such as "the listening environment, the source material, the setup, install, tuning, musical preferences, room interactions, etc." affect the sonic results the listener experiences. But, I don't, and I am not aware of anyone who does, sit in their car, or drive down the street, listening to a subwoofer or any speaker component by itself. Anyone who has properly tuned a car has (or should have) done that. There is NOTHING enjoyable about listening to a speaker component playing a limited frequency range. The midrange by itself has no body or dimension; the treble sounds tinny; the midbass sounds flat and lifeless, and the sub sounds like crap, to be honest. However, play the various components together, and different story: Music! It is certainly invaluable to test individual components so that at least you get some indication of their technical merit. Test tones serve their purpose, but ultimately it's what a component does with real music played through it in my car that I care about. I maintain that you cannot properly judge an indivdiual component unless you listen to it as part of the whole. Thus, making judgments based on how a "system" integrates is unavoidable if we are to make choices based on whether we like what we are hearing. I don't know what test tones will show, but I have tested (subjectively) and used the Morel Ultimo in the same car, with the same components, with the same music, that I have used with the JBL WGti Mk. II; Pioneer TS-W12PRS; Hertz ML3000(free air version); Hsu Research ASW-1203. So, I have had as controlled an environment as possible. None of these subs are slouches when it comes to sound quality, and all of these subs were used in their optimal enclosures and applications. Bass notes heard through the Ultimo were clearer, faster and more natural and real sounding to me, hands down. And, nothing in my system had changed. I know it wasn't my imagination, and no measurement will change that impression for me. Now, you may say that perhaps my car's environment allows certain things about the Morel to shine because, perhaps, a "peak" or a "dip" present with one sub, is not present with the Morel, for whatever reason. That might be, and perhaps its due to better design and technical execution of a product intended to be used in a specific environment - the car. But, even if a test showed that the Ultimo had more measurable distortion (presumably the kind we do not want) than the others, I ain't going back to them because of what my ears and brain tell me I am hearing. I am enjoying the bass in my system (and overall system sound quality) more than ever, and it appears that is the case for many other Ultimo users as well. It appears that one thing we all agree on is that our personal enjoyment is the ultimate objective, and that's all that should matter.


----------



## lucas569

Buzzman said:


> I fear this thread will turn into one where we are debating, again, whether what test measurements show is what you hear, or whether what you think you are hearing is what you are really hearing. I hope not, but feel compelled to chime in. I don't think anyone will disagree with the position that factors external to a subwoofer (or any speaker for that matter), such as "the listening environment, the source material, the setup, install, tuning, musical preferences, room interactions, etc." affect the sonic results the listener experiences.
> 
> But, I don't, and I am not aware of anyone who does, sit in their car, or drive down the street, listening to a subwoofer or any speaker component by itself. Anyone who has properly tuned a car has (or should have) done that. There is NOTHING enjoyable about listening to a speaker component playing a limited frequency range. The midrange by itself has no body or dimension; the treble sounds tinny; the midbass sounds flat and lifeless, and the sub sounds like crap, to be honest.
> 
> However, play the various components together, and different story: Music! It is certainly invaluable to test individual components so that at least you get some indication of their technical merit. Test tones serve their purpose, but ultimately it's what a component does with real music played through it in my car that I care about. I maintain that you cannot properly judge an indivdiual component unless you listen to it as part of the whole.
> 
> Thus, making judgments based on how a "system" integrates is unavoidable if we are to make choices based on whether we like what we are hearing. I don't know what test tones will show, but I have tested (subjectively) and used the Morel Ultimo in the same car, with the same components, with the same music, that I have used with the JBL WGti Mk. II; Pioneer TS-W12PRS; Hertz ML3000(free air version); Hsu Research ASW-1203. So, I have had as controlled an environment as possible.
> 
> None of these subs are slouches when it comes to sound quality, and all of these subs were used in their optimal enclosures and applications. Bass notes heard through the Ultimo were clearer, faster and more natural and real sounding to me, hands down. And, nothing in my system had changed. I know it wasn't my imagination, and no measurement will change that impression for me. Now, you may say that perhaps my car's environment allows certain things about the Morel to shine because, perhaps, a "peak" or a "dip" present with one sub, is not present with the Morel, for whatever reason. That might be, and perhaps its due to better design and technical execution of a product intended to be used in a specific environment - the car.
> 
> But, even if a test showed that the Ultimo had more measurable distortion (presumably the kind we do not want) than the others, I ain't going back to them because of what my ears and brain tell me I am hearing. I am enjoying the bass in my system (and overall system sound quality) more than ever, and it appears that is the case for many other Ultimo users as well. It appears that one thing we all agree on is that our personal enjoyment is the ultimate objective, and that's all that should matter.


sorry i had to, too hard to read


----------



## lucas569

Buzzman said:


> I fear this thread will turn into one where we are debating, again, whether what test measurements show is what you hear, or whether what you think you are hearing is what you are really hearing. I hope not, but feel compelled to chime in. I don't think anyone will disagree with the position that factors external to a subwoofer (or any speaker for that matter), such as "the listening environment, the source material, the setup, install, tuning, musical preferences, room interactions, etc." affect the sonic results the listener experiences.
> 
> But, I don't, and I am not aware of anyone who does, sit in their car, or drive down the street, listening to a subwoofer or any speaker component by itself. Anyone who has properly tuned a car has (or should have) done that. There is NOTHING enjoyable about listening to a speaker component playing a limited frequency range. The midrange by itself has no body or dimension; the treble sounds tinny; the midbass sounds flat and lifeless, and the sub sounds like crap, to be honest.
> 
> However, play the various components together, and different story: Music! It is certainly invaluable to test individual components so that at least you get some indication of their technical merit. Test tones serve their purpose, but ultimately it's what a component does with real music played through it in my car that I care about. I maintain that you cannot properly judge an indivdiual component unless you listen to it as part of the whole.
> 
> Thus, making judgments based on how a "system" integrates is unavoidable if we are to make choices based on whether we like what we are hearing. I don't know what test tones will show, but I have tested (subjectively) and used the Morel Ultimo in the same car, with the same components, with the same music, that I have used with the JBL WGti Mk. II; Pioneer TS-W12PRS; Hertz ML3000(free air version); Hsu Research ASW-1203. So, I have had as controlled an environment as possible.
> 
> None of these subs are slouches when it comes to sound quality, and all of these subs were used in their optimal enclosures and applications. Bass notes heard through the Ultimo were clearer, faster and more natural and real sounding to me, hands down. And, nothing in my system had changed. I know it wasn't my imagination, and no measurement will change that impression for me. Now, you may say that perhaps my car's environment allows certain things about the Morel to shine because, perhaps, a "peak" or a "dip" present with one sub, is not present with the Morel, for whatever reason. That might be, and perhaps its due to better design and technical execution of a product intended to be used in a specific environment - the car.
> 
> But, even if a test showed that the Ultimo had more measurable distortion (presumably the kind we do not want) than the others, I ain't going back to them because of what my ears and brain tell me I am hearing. I am enjoying the bass in my system (and overall system sound quality) more than ever, and it appears that is the case for many other Ultimo users as well. It appears that one thing we all agree on is that our personal enjoyment is the ultimate objective, and that's all that should matter.


sorry i had to, too hard to read  good info though!


----------



## snaimpally

npdang said:


> Would love to hear it sometime. I'm still very much a pragmatist though. To me when I hear "boomy"... first thought that pops in my mind is tuning or room issue. In my experience the difference between a good/bad sub is the texture of the bass.. whether or not it sounds fuzzy or or pure, if that makes any sense. Again, I find simple single or multi-tone listening tests best for gauging that quality. I'm in Orange County btw... Irvine area.


Nguyen,

Just to clarify, I never used "boomy" and in fact went to great lengths to avoid using that word. While I am admittedly new to car audio, I am not new to audio. I have been in to home audio for a long time, I am a performing musician, have a small music studio at home, and have done PA work for many Indian concerts, big and small. I have heard my share of systems and speakers and I know what good speakers should sound like.

The Ultimo reproduces notes without adding any coloration that would clue the listener into the fact that a subwoofer is present. While it is true that the review to a certain extent is a review of how all the drivers play together, the fact remains that when listening to almost any other sub in a system, no one has to tell me a sub is present because I hear the slight coloration added by the sub. The Ultimo exhibits no trace of this type of coloration. I have the sub level boosted to 3 db more than what auto eq and ta sets it at to overcome my loud exhaust. I have had the sub level boosted to 6-8 db over the auto eq and ta settings and there was still no audible indication of the presence of a sub in the system. How many subs can do that?

Don "Buzzman" is in LA, so he is probably the closest to you. I hope you can get together with him to hear the Ultimo 12.


----------



## npdang

Not to get too far off topic... but I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, which is why I feel the need every now and then to sort of jump in with my opinions.

Yes, we do NOT listen to driver's in isolation, or to test tones, nor in any controlled manner whatsoever. However, what is IMHO very important (and this is what people are missing) is that by being able to discover exactly what is that we're hearing that we like so much... it's a lot easier to duplicate the results and to allocate money resources more efficiently in any system. That being said, the only way to do that effectively is with controlled testing. Simply swapping drivers and changing nothing else for example... does not control for the driver's room interaction or differences in low end sensitivity, enclosure requirements, or efficiency and probably a host of other things I'm forgetting.

FWIW, my own experience tells me that distortion testing isn't that important for car subwoofers. To me, it's a somewhat slight difference that takes a trained ear to really hear in a car.

My hunch is looking at the Ultimo... I'm "assuming" that there's really nothing special in the design given my experience with different drivers over the years and other Morel double magnet products. Find out what makes it sound the way you like, and I don't doubt that you could duplicate that effect much more economically.


----------



## lucas569

that last sentence is exactly what im wondering! Dont alot of people say the dayton ho sub has a similiar sound to the ultimo? 

what do those drivers have in common???


----------



## audiodepot101

The last sentence is a bold statement,I will put My Ultimo up against Any Sub With three Listeners. All being feed the exact electronic supply. If that were the case the R&d what Morel holds to a very high standard is out the door. Plus I would choose my words wisely (QUOTE) "assuming"


----------



## Mooble

I listened to some Dayton HOs this weekend; two in fact. While I do think they are a fantastic bargain, they were not the same to me. I specifically played a bass track with which I am very familiar. They were not as muddy as several other subs I have heard, but they weren't as tight as the Ultimo. Of course this could be due to installation since one of them was in a box that was too small, but I've also heard an Ultimo in a small box as well and it was still preferable. 

I think I know what npdang is saying. The Ultimo may not look spectacular on paper, but its characteristics could suit it perfectly for the typical car installation.


----------



## npdang

audiodepot101 said:


> The last sentence is a bold statement,I will put My Ultimo up against Any Sub With three Listeners. All being feed the exact electronic supply. If that were the case the R&d what Morel holds to a very high standard is out the door. Plus I would choose my words wisely (QUOTE) "assuming"


Not sure I understand what you're saying. However, I'd put forward this question to you... what exactly about the design of the Ultimo do you believe is unique and fairly unduplicable in other drivers? Or do you believe that there are certain aspects of a subwoofer's sound that simply can't be related back to any discrete design elements?


----------



## audiodepot101

npdang said:


> Not sure I understand what you're saying. However, I'd put forward this question to you... what exactly about the design of the Ultimo do you believe is unique and fairly unduplicable in other drivers? Or do you believe that there are certain aspects of a subwoofer's sound that simply can't be related back to any discrete design elements?


This is what I believe: With my eyes and ears I believe That morel has put into car audio that a lot of company's has come short on doing, I believe That to win the sub woofer of the years time after time they are doing something right,I believe That thru my years of listening to various in car audio that this is the best sub that I have ever heard, some has come close. I believe That Morel has set a new standard in car audio to be compared to. and I believe in half of what I read, and 100% in what I hear in relations to car audio.

A company devoted to innovation based on state-of-the-art technology, Morel develops products that are unique in concept and design.

One of the world's first companies to use Neodymium magnets in its products, Morel redesigned its speakers in order to make optimal use of the advantages that this exceedingly powerful drive motor offers. In addition, by engineering original components and incorporating them into every product design, Morel has succeeded in developing a unique technological mix for optimal acoustic sound.

Morel drivers are based on the unique Hexatech technology whereby a hexagonal shaped aluminum wire voice-coil affords higher efficiency and power handling accuracy. In addition, Morel's External Voice Coil (EVC) technology used for constructing speakers, enable excellence in sound accuracy and tonal balance.

Furthermore, Morel's tweeters are designed for high-end systems, combining a flat, pancake type motor construction with high magnetic power of the Neodymium magnet. These and other acoustic technological advances place Morel in a class of its own.


What began as a dream in 1975 - to create the perfect loudspeaker - has turned into a life's work for Morel's founder, Meir Mordechai. Inspired by his love of music, Meir's quest to create the ultimate speaker has resulted in a company known worldwide for its dedication to providing superb sound quality. Along the way, Morel has built up an enviable reputation for technological innovation and design excellence.

Morel manufactures a wide range of high quality drivers and speakers including tweeters, midranges, and woofers for the mid- to high-end home hi-fi, home theater, and car audio markets. Morel's systems are sold in more than 55 countries around the globe.

Morel's products are made with exceptional care. They are all assembled by hand and extensively tested - undergoing seven different quality tests - to ensure they meet the highest standards.
deed.
Morel’s Ultimo 12 Wins the Best Sound Quality Subwoofer of 2008 And 2009
Voted by INCAR Entertainment Magazine Australia

Ultimo technology features

Ultimo 12 SQ subwoofer of the year

Ness-Ziona, Israel; March 10, 2008 — Morel, a worldwide leader in car audio speaker components and systems since 1975, announced that the Ultimo 12 Subwoofer won the 2008 Australian INCAR AWARDS as the sound quality subwoofer of the year.

Since its release in the summer of 2007, the Ultimo 12 (along with the Ultimo 10, released in the autumn of 2007), has been a great success, resulting in an extraordinary string of competition victories and glowing reviews.

The conclusion of Eric Fitzgerald’s review of the Ultimo in Car Audio & Entertainment’s latest issue was: “To sum it up Morel has an ace in the hole with the Ultimo. Enthusiasts no longer have to choose between sound quality and SPL when selecting a subwoofer – the Ultimo excels highly at both.”

In October 2007, Morel received two SEMA Global Media Awards for the Ultimo Subwoofer and now the Ultimo was awarded another grand award. “We are very proud to have the Ultimo 12 chosen as the best sound quality subwoofer of the year 2008.” Says Morel’s Founder and President, Mr. Meir Mordechai.

From the INCAR Magazine Awards section: “The Ultimo is a design not seen before in car audio. Everything, from its carbon composite cone (with 5mm sunken strengthening ridge), to its massive 5.1 inch voice coil, is the ultimate in SQ subwoofer design… When powered via a serious amplifier (the voice coil is rated at 1000 watts continuous) the subwoofer exerts superb control over everything south of one hundred Hertz. It can go quite loud when pushed too, but the Ultimo is primarily designed to produce low frequencies with an accuracy and fidelity not heard before. Audition one and you’ll discover why it’s our sound quality subwoofer of the year.”

“Great emphasis was placed on developing the sub’s outstanding features.” says Morel’s Executive Vice President, Mr. Oren Mordechai. The new, handcrafted Ultimo subwoofer speaker is proving itself both with those who demand the highest sound quality performance, and with those who seek the power of 1000WRMS (3000W Peak).

Morel’s uncompromising dedication to craftsmanship and sound quality have made it the choice of music aficionados the world over. The new Ultimo subwoofer series continues the tradition with an ambitious engineering and acoustic achievement.

Now also available in both 4 ohm and 2 ohm versions through Morel car audio dealers worldwide. For more information, visit Morel Loudspeakers or call +972 8 930 1161. In the US call toll-free 877-morel-11

About Morel
MOREL manufactures handcrafted, award-winning speakers and audio drivers for the mid to high end OEM, home and car audio markets. With over 30 years of technological innovation and design excellence, and sold in over 55 countries worldwide, Morel audio speakers are the choice of many of the biggest names in the music industry. Design and manufacturing are all performed under one roof, in MOREL’s Israel plant.


----------



## bassfromspace

audiodepot101 said:


> This is what I believe: With my eyes and ears I believe That morel has put into car audio that a lot of company's has come short on doing, I believe That to win the sub woofer of the years time after time they are doing something right,I believe That thru my years of listening to various in car audio that this is the best sub that I have ever heard, some has come close. I believe That Morel has set a new standard in car audio to be compared to. and I believe in half of what I read, and 100% in what I hear in relations to car audio.
> 
> A company devoted to innovation based on state-of-the-art technology, Morel develops products that are unique in concept and design.
> 
> One of the world's first companies to use Neodymium magnets in its products, Morel redesigned its speakers in order to make optimal use of the advantages that this exceedingly powerful drive motor offers. In addition, by engineering original components and incorporating them into every product design, Morel has succeeded in developing a unique technological mix for optimal acoustic sound.
> 
> Morel drivers are based on the unique Hexatech technology whereby a hexagonal shaped aluminum wire voice-coil affords higher efficiency and power handling accuracy. In addition, Morel's External Voice Coil (EVC) technology used for constructing speakers, enable excellence in sound accuracy and tonal balance.
> 
> Furthermore, Morel's tweeters are designed for high-end systems, combining a flat, pancake type motor construction with high magnetic power of the Neodymium magnet. These and other acoustic technological advances place Morel in a class of its own.
> 
> 
> What began as a dream in 1975 - to create the perfect loudspeaker - has turned into a life's work for Morel's founder, Meir Mordechai. Inspired by his love of music, Meir's quest to create the ultimate speaker has resulted in a company known worldwide for its dedication to providing superb sound quality. Along the way, Morel has built up an enviable reputation for technological innovation and design excellence.
> 
> Morel manufactures a wide range of high quality drivers and speakers including tweeters, midranges, and woofers for the mid- to high-end home hi-fi, home theater, and car audio markets. Morel's systems are sold in more than 55 countries around the globe.
> 
> Morel's products are made with exceptional care. They are all assembled by hand and extensively tested - undergoing seven different quality tests - to ensure they meet the highest standards.
> deed.
> Morel’s Ultimo 12 Wins the Best Sound Quality Subwoofer of 2008 And 2009
> Voted by INCAR Entertainment Magazine Australia
> 
> Ultimo technology features
> 
> Ultimo 12 SQ subwoofer of the year
> 
> Ness-Ziona, Israel; March 10, 2008 — Morel, a worldwide leader in car audio speaker components and systems since 1975, announced that the Ultimo 12 Subwoofer won the 2008 Australian INCAR AWARDS as the sound quality subwoofer of the year.
> 
> Since its release in the summer of 2007, the Ultimo 12 (along with the Ultimo 10, released in the autumn of 2007), has been a great success, resulting in an extraordinary string of competition victories and glowing reviews.
> 
> The conclusion of Eric Fitzgerald’s review of the Ultimo in Car Audio & Entertainment’s latest issue was: “To sum it up Morel has an ace in the hole with the Ultimo. Enthusiasts no longer have to choose between sound quality and SPL when selecting a subwoofer – the Ultimo excels highly at both.”
> 
> In October 2007, Morel received two SEMA Global Media Awards for the Ultimo Subwoofer and now the Ultimo was awarded another grand award. “We are very proud to have the Ultimo 12 chosen as the best sound quality subwoofer of the year 2008.” Says Morel’s Founder and President, Mr. Meir Mordechai.
> 
> From the INCAR Magazine Awards section: “The Ultimo is a design not seen before in car audio. Everything, from its carbon composite cone (with 5mm sunken strengthening ridge), to its massive 5.1 inch voice coil, is the ultimate in SQ subwoofer design… When powered via a serious amplifier (the voice coil is rated at 1000 watts continuous) the subwoofer exerts superb control over everything south of one hundred Hertz. It can go quite loud when pushed too, but the Ultimo is primarily designed to produce low frequencies with an accuracy and fidelity not heard before. Audition one and you’ll discover why it’s our sound quality subwoofer of the year.”
> 
> “Great emphasis was placed on developing the sub’s outstanding features.” says Morel’s Executive Vice President, Mr. Oren Mordechai. The new, handcrafted Ultimo subwoofer speaker is proving itself both with those who demand the highest sound quality performance, and with those who seek the power of 1000WRMS (3000W Peak).
> 
> Morel’s uncompromising dedication to craftsmanship and sound quality have made it the choice of music aficionados the world over. The new Ultimo subwoofer series continues the tradition with an ambitious engineering and acoustic achievement.
> 
> Now also available in both 4 ohm and 2 ohm versions through Morel car audio dealers worldwide. For more information, visit Morel Loudspeakers or call +972 8 930 1161. In the US call toll-free 877-morel-11
> 
> About Morel
> MOREL manufactures handcrafted, award-winning speakers and audio drivers for the mid to high end OEM, home and car audio markets. With over 30 years of technological innovation and design excellence, and sold in over 55 countries worldwide, Morel audio speakers are the choice of many of the biggest names in the music industry. Design and manufacturing are all performed under one roof, in MOREL’s Israel plant.


This is all fine and dandy, but it still fails to address the initial question.

What specifically does this driver incorporate that makes it sound better than other subs?

If the listening environment was not a controlled one, how can one accurately make an assessment?


----------



## audiodepot101

Ok its not better, matter of fact you can go with a any sub you want, I am just giving my listening experience over the years, now if you want to know the exact ingredients then you should call the maker of the sub, I can only tell you how it taste to me and I am sure that those who has heard the ultimo in PERSON would agree. Other then that call morel if you want to know what kind of cone that they are using or the glue that they use, or the material of the surround. I'm Done with the tread. It was fun. go with the white paper that should sound best:deal2:


----------



## npdang

There's absolutely nothing wrong with liking a speaker for no other reason than you like how it sounds. However, the tradition on this forum has generally been ... let's discover why it sounds good so that maybe we can make more informed decisions in the future... rather than relying on sometimes unreliable subjective reviews given by people who we don't know, or having to personally purchase and listen to everything under the sun to find something we like.

Another fair question I think would be... how do I distinguish this review from any other rave review of a different product? Or a review of the sub given by someone who doesn't like it?


----------



## Buzzman

bassfromspace said:


> This is all fine and dandy, but it still fails to address the initial question.
> 
> What specifically does this driver incorporate that makes it sound better than other subs? . . .



It seems to me that this question ought to be directed to, and be answered by, Morel. They designed the sub. Now, notwithstanding, in my opinion even if we don't know "what" makes this sub sound, to us, better than anything else we have heard, it does not change the fact that it sounds better. Would it be great to know what design characteristics contribute to the sonic results we are hearing? Sure. Morel states its claims in its white paper on the sub. And, would it be nice to know whether the performance of the Ultimo can be duplicated at a more "economical" price. Of course. But, often times it's not so much the technology, as it is the application and execution of the technology. For example, car experts are always lauding BMW for their cars "steering feel." There is nothing they implement that's not available to Audi, Porsche, Mercedss, etc. But BMW's engineers have an innate ability to figure out how to make the disparate parts work together to create a result that other car manufacturers are still chasing. I just want great sound, and the Ultimo delivers it in spades. It may well be the case that they have not implemented any technology not already being utilized by another manufacturer, or which cannot be readily duplicated. But, again, it does not change the fact of what I hear. If some manufacturer comes along and says I have replicated the Ultimo sound at a fraction of the price, my response is "You've made by day." As of now, I have not heard another sub that fits that description. But, I am always willing to be enlightened.


----------



## audiodepot101

Hold up! Is car audio sound? Your saying that it should not sound no different from any other sub on paper? and these are your own words which consist of hunches and assumptions? And you have not ever heard one correct? My ear for SQ does not only extend in car audio but in everything that I do. In my home audio, even my $800 set of head phones. here are your words and I quote"
My hunch is looking at the Ultimo... I'm "assuming" that there's really nothing special in the design given my experience with different drivers over the years and other Morel double magnet products. Find out what makes it sound the way you like, and I don't doubt that you could duplicate that effect much more economically" Well if you can make a better driver for less money I would call up some manufacturers and get this on the market because you my friend will be a rich man, and I will buy the first 100 off the production line.


----------



## bassfromspace

Buzzman said:


> It seems to me that this question ought to be directed to, and be answered by, Morel. They designed the sub. Now, notwithstanding, in my opinion even if we don't know "what" makes this sub sound, to us, better than anything else we have heard, it does not change the fact that it sounds better. Would it be great to know what design characteristics contribute to the sonic results we are hearing? Sure. Morel states its claims in its white paper on the sub. And, would it be nice to know whether the performance of the Ultimo can be duplicated at a more "economical" price. Of course. But, often times it's not so much the technology, as it is the application and execution of the technology. For example, car experts are always lauding BMW for their cars "steering feel." There is nothing they implement that's not available to Audi, Porsche, Mercedss, etc. But BMW's engineers have an innate ability to figure out how to make the disparate parts work together to create a result that other car manufacturers are still chasing. I just want great sound, and the Ultimo delivers it in spades. It may well be the case that they have not implemented any technology not already being utilized by another manufacturer, or which cannot be readily duplicated. But, again, it does not change the fact of what I hear. If some manufacturer comes along and says I have replicated the Ultimo sound at a fraction of the price, my response is "You've made by day." As of now, I have not heard another sub that fits that description. But, I am always willing to be enlightened.


Two things.

1. There's no such thing as superior "steering feel" if one is not able to test steering feel within a control environment. We can try driving with a blind fold on as a start. Take into account the EXPECTATION that a brand name brings along with it (BMW or Morel) and steering feel becomes less of a good objective measure.

2. I think the question being asked is, how can one discern what they like if they never test there hypothesis? I can respect the fact that one likes the sound of the Morel, but we must solve for human bias. Tossing a sub in a box and sayin "it's the best sub ever" means very little. If one has not removed all bias from an experiment, how can you accurately make a close-ended statement?

The sound synonyms begin to throw things off kilter.


----------



## Mooble

npdang said:


> the tradition on this forum has generally been ... let's discover why it sounds good so that maybe we can make more informed decisions in the future... rather than relying on sometimes unreliable subjective reviews given by people who we don't know, or having to personally purchase and listen to everything under the sun to find something we like.


Precisely! This is why I would love for you to analyze one for yourself. As I mentioned previously, I have seen subs with better specs than the Morel. So why does it sound better than the dozens of subs I have heard? WHY!?!? I would love to know what combination of specs is responsible for this. I have the end result which is an amazing sounding sub. I'm trying to figure out how they got there. It's not likely due to magic pixie dust. We should be able to figure it out. I seriously doubt that every sub stage I have heard was improperly orchestrated and that I suddenly got it right with the Ultimo and that's why it sounds good. I believe it's the driver that is responsible. I've heard Shiv's Ultimo many times and his enclosure is half a cube smaller than mine, but it still sounds different so tuning alone definitely cannot explain the Ultimo's sound. He and I are even using the same amp.

I'm approaching it from a scientific standpoint. I do care what is causing it to sound better. I would love to find out.


----------



## npdang

audiodepot101 said:


> Hold up! Is car audio sound? Your saying that it should not sound no different from any other sub on paper? and these are your own words which consist of hunches and assumptions? And you have not ever heard one correct? My ear for SQ does not only extend in car audio but in everything that I do. In my home audio, even my $800 set of head phones. here are your words and I quote"
> My hunch is looking at the Ultimo... I'm "assuming" that there's really nothing special in the design given my experience with different drivers over the years and other Morel double magnet products. Find out what makes it sound the way you like, and I don't doubt that you could duplicate that effect much more economically" Well if you can make a better driver for less money I would call up some manufacturers and get this on the market because you my friend will be a rich man, and I will buy the first 100 off the production line.


No offense, but your posts are barely coherent and I can't understand what you're trying to say.

Unlike some people, I do not posts things as "fact" unless I know for certain. Since I have not heard the sub, I can only "assume" right? What's wrong with that. It's called forming a hypothesis. When I have the "facts" I will post them as such.

Also, I have not challenged your opinion that you think this sub in your system sounds great. I am only challenging you to tell me why, which so far you have dithered on.


----------



## npdang

Mooble said:


> Precisely! This is why I would love for you to analyze one for yourself. As I mentioned previously, I have seen subs with better specs than the Morel. So why does it sound better than the dozens of subs I have heard? WHY!?!? I would love to know what combination of specs is responsible for this. I have the end result which is an amazing sounding sub. I'm trying to figure out how they got there. It's not likely due to magic pixie dust. We should be able to figure it out. I seriously doubt that every sub stage I have heard was improperly orchestrated and that I suddenly got it right with the Ultimo and that's why it sounds good. I believe it's the driver that is responsible. I've heard Shiv's Ultimo many times and his enclosure is half a cube smaller than mine, but it still sounds different so tuning alone definitely cannot explain the Ultimo's sound. He and I are even using the same amp.
> 
> I'm approaching it from a scientific standpoint. I do care what is causing it to sound better. I would love to find out.


My gut feeling is two things... one being it's probably not performance related with respect to linearity or low distortion... and second that sometimes things that sound great, actually aren't very accurate. Without actually playing with the sub myself, I have no real way of knowing.

For example though... I once had these Focal Utopia subs from long ago... 10" drivers that were more of a woofer than a subwoofer. It was snappy, fast, and I believe most people would say it sounded much more transparent and all around better than the JL 10w7 I had put next to it in comparison. However, when I took the subs out of the car and just had them playing simple tones in "free-air," it was quite obvious the Focals not only had greater mechanical noise that was being masked by the enclosure, but that as the volume was turned up the pitch and timbre changed quite noticeably... whereas the JL sub had a more of "pure" sound for lack of a better word. No real point... just thought I'd share.


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> It seems to me that this question ought to be directed to, and be answered by, Morel. They designed the sub. Now, notwithstanding, in my opinion even if we don't know "what" makes this sub sound, to us, better than anything else we have heard, it does not change the fact that it sounds better. Would it be great to know what design characteristics contribute to the sonic results we are hearing? Sure. Morel states its claims in its white paper on the sub. And, would it be nice to know whether the performance of the Ultimo can be duplicated at a more "economical" price. Of course. But, often times it's not so much the technology, as it is the application and execution of the technology. For example, car experts are always lauding BMW for their cars "steering feel." There is nothing they implement that's not available to Audi, Porsche, Mercedss, etc. But BMW's engineers have an innate ability to figure out how to make the disparate parts work together to create a result that other car manufacturers are still chasing. I just want great sound, and the Ultimo delivers it in spades. It may well be the case that they have not implemented any technology not already being utilized by another manufacturer, or which cannot be readily duplicated. But, again, it does not change the fact of what I hear. If some manufacturer comes along and says I have replicated the Ultimo sound at a fraction of the price, my response is "You've made by day." As of now, I have not heard another sub that fits that description. But, I am always willing to be enlightened.


Buzz... I hear what you're saying. But how can you know it's the sub itself that is the primary cause of what you're hearing, when in fact you're also listening to a great number of things that have a strong impact on how the sub sounds?

Put it another way... assuming that the sub itself is the single most important factor in the quality of the sound you're hearing, why is it that I can't just buy the best sub/mid/tweeter out there and have the best sounding system?


----------



## remeolb

npdang, do you feel that the numerous reviews of the sub properly explain why it sounds good or do you feel that they are also subjective opinions? Also, referencing your question,


> assuming that the sub itself is the single most important factor in the quality of the sound you're hearing, why is it that I can't just buy the best sub/mid/tweeter out there and have the best sounding system?


 do you feel that sourcing the best sounding equipment is important to a good system design or should you simply choose speakers that you like the sound of? In other words does it matter how well the drivers perform from a technical standpoint?


----------



## audiodepot101

remeolb said:


> npdang, do you feel that the numerous reviews of the sub properly explain why it sounds good or do you feel that they are also subjective opinions? Also, referencing your question, do you feel that sourcing the best sounding equipment is important to a good system design or should you simply choose speakers that you like the sound of? In other words does it matter how well the drivers perform from a technical standpoint?


LOL :dead_horse:


----------



## audiodepot101

npdang said:


> Buzz... I hear what you're saying. But how can you know it's the sub itself that is the primary cause of what you're hearing, when in fact you're also listening to a great number of things that have a strong impact on how the sub sounds?
> 
> Put it another way... assuming that the sub itself is the single most important factor in the quality of the sound you're hearing, why is it that I can't just buy the best sub/mid/tweeter out there and have the best sounding system?


LOL :dead_horse:


----------



## remeolb

npdang said:


> Put it another way... assuming that the sub itself is the single most important factor in the quality of the sound you're hearing, why is it that I can't just buy the best sub/mid/tweeter out there and have the best sounding system?


I actually think this is a very valid question.


----------



## npdang

remeolb said:


> npdang, do you feel that the numerous reviews of the sub properly explain why it sounds good or do you feel that they are also subjective opinions? Also, referencing your question, do you feel that sourcing the best sounding equipment is important to a good system design or should you simply choose speakers that you like the sound of? In other words does it matter how well the drivers perform from a technical standpoint?


Personally, I do not put much stock in subjective reviews unless they are from people whose listening tastes and views I know are aligned with my own.

I generally work the other way... if the specs/measurements look interesting, I will make the purchase in order to confirm whether or not I like the driver. So to answer your question, I think a good driver should both sound good and measure reasonably well (at least with respect to what you're trying to achieve)... and in my experience they usually do.

As far as equipment selection goes, I would advise taking into account the listening environment, budget, available space, how well each component complements the other... as well as the quality of the individual piece itself before making a purchase. There's usually a lot more to being "best" all around, than any set of measurements or subjective listening will tell you.


----------



## snaimpally

npdang said:


> Not to get too far off topic... but I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, which is why I feel the need every now and then to sort of jump in with my opinions.
> 
> Yes, we do NOT listen to driver's in isolation, or to test tones, nor in any controlled manner whatsoever. However, what is IMHO very important (and this is what people are missing) is that by being able to discover exactly what is that we're hearing that we like so much... it's a lot easier to duplicate the results and to allocate money resources more efficiently in any system. That being said, the only way to do that effectively is with controlled testing. Simply swapping drivers and changing nothing else for example... does not control for the driver's room interaction or differences in low end sensitivity, enclosure requirements, or efficiency and probably a host of other things I'm forgetting.
> 
> FWIW, my own experience tells me that distortion testing isn't that important for car subwoofers. To me, it's a somewhat slight difference that takes a trained ear to really hear in a car.
> 
> My hunch is looking at the Ultimo... I'm "assuming" that there's really nothing special in the design given my experience with different drivers over the years and other Morel double magnet products. Find out what makes it sound the way you like, and I don't doubt that you could duplicate that effect much more economically.


Ahhh, okay. You basically want an engineering answer as to why this sub sounds better than other subs. I am not an audio engineer so I can't give you the anwser you want. As someone else said, you need someone from Morel to answer that. In fact, you are probably in a better position to answer the question than many others on the forum.

I suspect it is a simply a combination of judiciously choosing certain aspects of sub design and playing around until their design acheived their design goals. I think their overriding goal was that the sub be quick and responsive. The double magnets and external 5.1" voice coil I suspect contribute to this design goal. Its a bit liking asking why BMW always wins in Car and Driver shootouts and makes their top ten every year. They are all cars after all, right? All have an engine, wheels, tires, suspension etc. Should be possible to duplicate that more economically, right? Audi has been joined by Lexus, Infiniti, and more recently Hyundai in gunning for BMW.

No doubt similar results could be acheived more economically. It apears that Morel has realized this as well with the advent of their SC line of subs. I doubt any one thing Morel has done in engineering the sub is a major paradigm shift or earth shattering. Yet the combination does appear to work. If you read the professional reviews, they also say what I'm saying, i.e. the sub plays without making its presence felt. 

From the *CAE *review "Morel's motor assembly design is both unique and uncommon in subwoofers. The Double Magnet Motor (DMM) assembly is a compact design of stacked ferrite magnets within the oversized EVC. Traditional subwoofer designs have the voice coil within the magnet in which the magnet is clearly visible. Through extensive optimization, the magnet assembly achieves 90 percent efficiency." 

From the *InCar *magazine review "Unlike many subwoofers and speakers on the market today, the Morel Supremo and Ultimo speakers have the magnet in the center of the voice coil rather than around the outside so from the outside you cannot actually see the magnet. The magnet itself is a double stacked item that Morel claim (in conjunction with the voice coil and former) offers 90% efficiency." 

From the *PasMag *review "Lots of speakers use dual magnets, but not many of them place one of those magnets above the top plate. This helps to equalize and distribute the magnetic field for more linear operation." and "So, what is so cool about the big voice coil? In the case of the Ultimo, it let them locate the entire magnet assembly inside the voice coil former. It also provides a massive amount of surface area for excellent cooling properties. The aluminum voice coil former is anodized black to further assist in heat transfer for more power handling. Wrapped around the monster voice coil former is an aluminum voice coil winding made from Morel’s Hexatech wire. This six-sided wire nests more tightly together than conventional round wire to reduce inductance and reduce magnetic flux loss."


----------



## SirMilo

Firstly, I have nothing informative to add for the questions at hand. 
I have heard the sub in the OP's setup.
I don't know why it sounds (or doesn't sound, if you prefer) like it does, but I can definitely say that if I had the money available for an Ultimo, I wouldn't lose 1 second of sleep spending that much money. However, the sub install would be in a 100% different environment.

As npdang said above, I believe there are multiple variables to take into account. Would it sound as good in my car as the OP's? Probably not. Why? OP has a hatchback while I would have to install in the trunk. In his install, I really don't see how any sub could sound any better.

This is only my opinion and nothing more.


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## snaimpally

SirMilo said:


> Firstly, I have nothing informative to add for the questions at hand.
> I have heard the sub in the OP's setup.
> I don't know why it sounds (or doesn't sound, if you prefer) like it does, but I can definitely say that if I had the money available for an Ultimo, I wouldn't lose 1 second of sleep spending that much money. However, the sub install would be in a 100% different environment.
> 
> As npdang said above, I believe there are multiple variables to take into account. Would it sound as good in my car as the OP's? Probably not. Why? OP has a hatchback while I would have to install in the trunk. In his install, I really don't see how any sub could sound any better.
> 
> This is only my opinion and nothing more.


I don't know if you heard Andrew's car but he has an Ultimo as well and a much different setip than my car. He has a Prelude and uses completely different drivers than I do. How did the Morel Ultimo sound to you in his car?


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## audiodepot101

The one thing that I can truly appreciate is the all those who have heard, or come to own a Ultimo.We all say the same thing?? even the professional reviews. So my question is why is it so important to find out how it ticks if you are not in a position to reverse engineer? Yes you can find a sub with like white paper, but if its not the same material it will not yield the same sound, just laws of physics. My only reason for sub specs is to put it in the optimal enclosure, to see the desired frequency range that I want it to play in. All we are saying is that this is a awesome sub. Why does it sound the way it does, why is the sky blue? I don't care just as long as I can enjoy the beauty of it all.:snacks:


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## npdang

Snaimpally - Thanks, I do have quite a bit of experience with Morel double magnet drivers. I'm a bit confused by the "90% efficient" statement however... as in what it might refer to. Given a 1wm sensitivity of 85dbspl, I believe that's actually about .5% efficiency (electrical energy converted to acoustic energy).

My inquiry would generally follow these lines:

1. To what extent is the driver responsible for what I'm hearing? 
2. How do I quantify that sound contribution from the driver?
3. What is the relation between that quantifiable aspect of the driver's performance/sound and it's design/construction?

As you can see, the driver's construction/design aspect is only the end to a line of questioning... rather than the beginning.


----------



## SirMilo

snaimpally said:


> I don't know if you heard Andrew's car but he has an Ultimo as well and a much different setip than my car. He has a Prelude and uses completely different drivers than I do. How did the Morel Ultimo sound to you in his car?


I heard Andrew's car and it sounded very good in his as well.
It's difficult for me to express why, but it DID sound different to me in his car- it sounded really good, but different than yours.
IDK if it was the completely different front stages you guys run, enclosure sizes, cabin gains, or acts of God... I simply have no explanation as to why.

Both were impressive as far as I'm concerned.


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## lucas569

audiodepot101 said:


> The one thing that I can truly appreciate is the all those who have heard, or come to own a Ultimo.We all say the same thing?? even the professional reviews. So my question is why is it so important to find out how it ticks if you are not in a position to reverse engineer? Yes you can find a sub with like white paper, but if its not the same material it will not yield the same sound, just laws of physics. My only reason for sub specs is to put it in the optimal enclosure, to see the desired frequency range that I want it to play in. All we are saying is that this is a awesome sub. Why does it sound the way it does, why is the sky blue? I don't care just as long as I can enjoy the beauty of it all.:snacks:


well some of us do CARE, your posts are coming off as hostile. Chill its just a forum. 

some us of have curiosity, no big deal. I for one would love to know WHY it sounds the way it does. Just in MY nature. 

I am buying this sub in a couple months, if i like it ill keep it. If not ill sell. I go thru subs like socks...


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## audiodepot101

lucas569 said:


> well some of us do CARE, your posts are coming off as hostile. Chill its just a forum.
> 
> some us of have curiosity, no big deal. I for one would love to know WHY it sounds the way it does. Just in MY nature.
> 
> I am buying this sub in a couple months, if i like it ill keep it. If not ill sell. I go thru subs like socks...


Oh, I am so sorry if I appear hostile, by all means take the time and figure it all out. let me know what you come up with, so sorry.


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## lucas569

audiodepot101 said:


> Oh, I am so sorry if I appear hostile, by all means take the time and figure it all out. let me know what you come up with, so sorry.


yaaa youll be the 1st one i call


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## audiodepot101

Wow That was not nice.


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## Buzzman

It never ceases to amaze me how on this forum a discussion that starts out being thoughtful, educational and respectful can so quickly deteriorate into immature name calling, disrespect for others, and opinions that are thoughtless and illogical, have no relevance to the topic at issue, and serve only to show how ignorant the poster is. There is so much recently posted here I was itching to respond to, but better judgment led me not to do so. Npdang, shoot me a PM and let's plan to have a brew sometime and continue the debate you started here, while listening to our respective systems and enjoying some moments of civility.  If this thread can get back on a civil track, where differences of opinions can be treated as such and an opportunity to learn something new, and not as a reason to attack someone, I will be happy to continue offering my thoughts.


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## lucas569

spoken like a true gentleman, i apologize for my post.


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## snaimpally

npdang said:


> 1. To what extent is the driver responsible for what I'm hearing?
> 2. How do I quantify that sound contribution from the driver?
> 3. What is the relation between that quantifiable aspect of the driver's performance/sound and it's design/construction?


Nguyen, thanks for clarifying what you are looking for. I'll do my best to respond. 

My sub amp went into protect mode without warning two weeks ago and for a week I was listening to my system without a sub. This was a very good experience in terms of understanding to what extent the driver was responsible for what I was hearing. I have my Ultimo and W18NX mids crossed at 63Hz. The W18NXs have good output but even I wasn't prepared for how thin it sounded. The Ultimo was adding a lot more than I thought. Its contribution to the overall sound is quite substantial, but it is the way that it contributes that is unusual. All subs reproduce the frequencies input to them, but all the other subs I have heard contribute some additional coloration that makes the listener aware that a sub is present. The Ultimo does not do this. It reproduces the note and then disappears without a trace. This is the reason it blends so well. It is the way in which the reproduction of the bass notes occur that makes it different from other subs I have heard. I think most other subs are "fat and heavy" so due to their inertia, they reproduce the note for a longer time than the music calls for, thereby adding "something" to the sound. Did you read Patrick Bateman's thread on why cheap subs sound better? Many of today's subs are designed for power handling and SPL so they do not reproduce notes "light and quick".

I'm not sure how to quantify the contribution of the sub. Besides, not everything is quantifiable to the degree that you can point to one thing and say "There, that is why this is better". Often a combination of small and subtle variations from the norm may seem innocuous but the sum of those subtleties may synergistically cause a significant departure from the norm. As someone pointed out, the Ultimo doesn't look exceptional on paper. But in the case of the Ultimo, the sum is greater than the parts. It all works very well.

The relationship between the quantifiable and the net result may be difficult to pinpoint if the Ultimo is a sub where each of the parameters have been tweaked/optimized to yeild the end result. The reviewers all pointed to the stacked magnets, the large voice coil, and the mounting of the voice coil relative to the magnets as being unusual. Are there other subs that have similar construction?

If these were the factors you were looking for in a review, then I'm afraid I am not knowledgeable enough about driver design to quantify why the Ultimo sounds different and the relationship between the quantifiable aspects and the construction. For that, either someone from Morel, or someone like Dan Wiggins or Vance Dickason is needed.


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## audiodepot101

Thanks snaimpally, This thread started out as a simple review about the ultimo, and those that also owned one were quick to chime in and share there thoughts about the sub as well, and Not that it is impossible for the sub to sound that way according to the paper. we at the most part are not audio engineers, at lease I'm not. I thought that this was a site where people could share their experiences regarding different audio equipment and not have to know quantum physics to prove what they are hearing is correct? This site is confusing me/ is this a "if you can here it prove it site? or a site that can guide you on some good things to try out, because of others having a chance to experiencing them? I was about to do a write up on the Morel supremo 9", the dynaudio MW182,DLS Iridium 8.3i , morel caw938,and ScanSpeak 22W/4851T Revelator. I can't prove anything other then what I hear.


----------



## npdang

snaimpally said:


> Nguyen, thanks for clarifying what you are looking for. I'll do my best to respond.
> 
> My sub amp went into protect mode without warning two weeks ago and for a week I was listening to my system without a sub. This was a very good experience in terms of understanding to what extent the driver was responsible for what I was hearing. I have my Ultimo and W18NX mids crossed at 63Hz. The W18NXs have good output but even I wasn't prepared for how thin it sounded. The Ultimo was adding a lot more than I thought. Its contribution to the overall sound is quite substantial, but it is the way that it contributes that is unusual. All subs reproduce the frequencies input to them, but all the other subs I have heard contribute some additional coloration that makes the listener aware that a sub is present. The Ultimo does not do this. It reproduces the note and then disappears without a trace. This is the reason it blends so well. It is the way in which the reproduction of the bass notes occur that makes it different from other subs I have heard. I think most other subs are "fat and heavy" so due to their inertia, they reproduce the note for a longer time than the music calls for, thereby adding "something" to the sound. Did you read Patrick Bateman's thread on why cheap subs sound better? Many of today's subs are designed for power handling and SPL so they do not reproduce notes "light and quick".
> 
> I'm not sure how to quantify the contribution of the sub. Besides, not everything is quantifiable to the degree that you can point to one thing and say "There, that is why this is better". Often a combination of small and subtle variations from the norm may seem innocuous but the sum of those subtleties may synergistically cause a significant departure from the norm. As someone pointed out, the Ultimo doesn't look exceptional on paper. But in the case of the Ultimo, the sum is greater than the parts. It all works very well.
> 
> The relationship between the quantifiable and the net result may be difficult to pinpoint if the Ultimo is a sub where each of the parameters have been tweaked/optimized to yeild the end result. The reviewers all pointed to the stacked magnets, the large voice coil, and the mounting of the voice coil relative to the magnets as being unusual. Are there other subs that have similar construction?
> 
> If these were the factors you were looking for in a review, then I'm afraid I am not knowledgeable enough about driver design to quantify why the Ultimo sounds different and the relationship between the quantifiable aspects and the construction. For that, either someone from Morel, or someone like Dan Wiggins or Vance Dickason is needed.


I think everything you've said makes quite a bit of sense, and I was certainly where you were at many years ago as well. The breakdown in yours and many people's line of reasoning though appears mostly at the second question, "how do I quantify that sound contribution from the driver?"

Some subs sound "fat and heavy," while others sound "light and quick." This is then attributed to "coloration," which you elaborate to mean that there is some kind of excess inertia or stored energy present in the driver to account for the difference in sound, and that the driver's use of materials or design taken in toto would be responsible for that effect. In my experience, this is simply not the case.

First, much of the testing I've done over the years has shown negligible stored energy in the subwoofer itself below 100hz; the enclosure, and especially the vehicle itself stores and radiates energy significantly higher in amplitude and longer in time than the driver itself. Second, listening to simple tones between subwoofers has not shown to me that any sub really sounds any less heavier, faster, or quicker than any other sub when listening to these tones.

I would submit then, that in my experience, the apparent "speed" of the subwoofer as you hear it, is directly related to frequency response of the driver in a given setup, the interaction of the driver with the listening environment, the integration of the driver to the midbass, and most importantly the nature of the input signal itself. As you can see, many of these factors are only incidentally related (if at all) to the driver itself.

One thing however which I believe warrants mentioning is the very low inductance figures for the Morel Ultimo... which rival that of most low inductance 5-7" drivers. That would certainly smooth the overall response of the driver and making it easier to integrate. I've noticed that this has also been the case with many other highly acclaimed "SQ subs" such as Scan-Speak, JBL, etc.

Although I haven't read Patrick Bateman's thread, my intuition is that low xmax subs tend to sound "better" simply because they suffer more from compression than do high xmax subs. As our ears become more sensitive to low frequencies as the volume increases... the compression effect of a low xmax sub compensates by reducing the output of the driver in the lowest frequencies, and requiring substantially more power for marginally smaller increases in perceived output... thus acting as sort of a reverse loudness function. Also, low xmax subs tend to have higher distortion products... the effect of which is much like the Maxxbass dsp... which adds upper end harmonics into the sound making it sound punchier, faster, and more lively... the tradeoff of course being a departure from the accuracy of the recording.

In the end I've always been a big supporter of buy what you like and I've never disparaged anyone for their equipment choices. I simply think that a deeper understanding of the mechanics behind why something sounds the way it does is a useful tool to achieving better sound in your car at less expense and trial and error.


----------



## el_chupo_

Np - While the "experts" like audiodepot prefer to trust their ears, I do appreciate you stepping in, giving your opinions based on real world stuff, not the "trust me, I sell audio gear" BS that is so prevalent in the industry. 
I do miss the previous times, with your kippel reviews, logic and reasoning for recommendations, and the help you bring. I still search out your old posts when I am looking for info.

The info you are trying to get out is appreciated, and I like the reasonable discussion.

Matt


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## Fixtion

npdang said:


> _In the end I've always been a big supporter of buy what you like and I've never disparaged anyone for their equipment choices. _
> *I simply think that a deeper understanding of the mechanics behind why something sounds the way it does is a useful tool to
> achieving better sound in your car at less expense and trial and error.*


the moral of the story.


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## audiodepot101

Thanks Matt for your kind words. Is this I take his side over your side site? You guys kill me. I have never seen so much hate towards a person one has never met. i think I am done with this site and all of its negativity.NP I did take the time to e-mail and find a little data for you.
AVHub - INCAR - Product Reviews - Morel Ultimo 12? Subwoofer


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## el_chupo_

audiodepot101 said:


> Thanks Matt for your kind words. Is this I take his side over your side site? You guys kill me. I have never seen so much hate towards a person one has never met. i think I am done with this site and all of its negativity.NP I did take the time to e-mail and find a little data for you.
> AVHub - INCAR - Product Reviews - Morel Ultimo 12? Subwoofer




Is this a " if no one agrees with my I will take my knowledge and go away" tantrum? If so, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

No one is "hating" you. some of us came here for the real info and test data. I have no problems with reviews, and actually like individual reviews more than npdang. That said, I like to know the reason why something sounds good. You may find it hard to believe, but many an audio company makes marketing claims with no actual science to back it up. Its good to have a site like this to dig through the marketing and sales rep parroting and get the real data.

I personally dont like the attitude you have brought to this discussion. Not a direct reflection of you, as I am far from able to form an opinion on you, as, like you said, I havent met you. but your dismissal of anyone else having an opinion based on scientific measurements does imply a bit about your real world attitude. 

I would love to see the discussion continue, but yours is not the attitude to encourage a discussion, it is condescending, borderline rude, and shows you dont know much about why it sounds good, only that you can copy out of Morel's marketing pages.

And for the record, I have not heard this sub. I have heard quite a bit of Morel gear, and am one that likes the sound of some of their components.

The sub was very high on my short list of subs, based on third party reviews alone!


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## somegreekguy

"That said, I like to know the reason why something sounds good. You may find it hard to believe, but many an audio company makes marketing claims with no actual science to back it up. Its good to have a site like this to dig through the marketing and sales rep parroting and get the real data".

-Amen. x2.


----------



## subwoofery

Did someone test it in a vented alignment? Something like 32hz would be great (that tuning works great in my car ) 

Kelvin


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> I think everything you've said makes quite a bit of sense, and I was certainly where you were at many years ago as well. The breakdown in yours and many people's line of reasoning though appears mostly at the second question, "how do I quantify that sound contribution from the driver?"


I don't understand this "question" What do you mean by "quantify" in this context? Are you asking HOW MUCH or WHAT PERCENTAGE of what the listener is hearing he/she would attribute to a particular driver in a sound system? 



npdang said:


> . . . Second, listening to simple tones between subwoofers has not shown to me that any sub really sounds any less heavier, faster, or quicker than any other sub when listening to these tones.


Interesting. So are you suggesting that we as MUSIC listeners should be fully satisfied with ANY subwoofer we install in our system because they all sound alike with test tones?



npdang said:


> I would submit then, that in my experience, the apparent "speed" of the subwoofer as you hear it, is directly related to frequency response of the driver in a given setup, the interaction of the driver with the listening environment, the integration of the driver to the midbass, and most importantly the nature of the input signal itself. As you can see, many of these factors are only incidentally related (if at all) to the driver itself.


Again, interesting. So, in my situation where I used the same car, same head unit, same processor, same amplifiers, same cables, same midbass, same midrange, same tweeter, same low pass crossover frequency for sub, same bandpass frequency for midbass and midrange, and same high pass frequency for the tweeters, installed 5 different subwoofers in enclosures intended for optimal SQ based on their T/S parameters and my SQ objectives (i.e., reasonably flat in-car response), and concluded that the Ultimo was superior in all respects to 4 other subwoofers, with music played through it, not test tones (the same music, by the way, was used for my testing), would you say I was delusional in my conclusion because I should not have heard any difference among these subs? 



npdang said:


> One thing however which I believe warrants mentioning is the very low inductance figures for the Morel Ultimo... which rival that of most low inductance 5-7" drivers. That would certainly smooth the overall response of the driver and making it easier to integrate. I've noticed that this has also been the case with many other highly acclaimed "SQ subs" such as Scan-Speak, JBL, etc.


That specification jumped out to me as well, particularly in the case of the 2 Ohm version which I own. 



npdang said:


> Although I haven't read Patrick Bateman's thread, my intuition is that low xmax subs tend to sound "better" simply because they suffer more from compression than do high xmax subs. As our ears become more sensitive to low frequencies as the volume increases... the compression effect of a low xmax sub compensates by reducing the output of the driver in the lowest frequencies, and requiring substantially more power for marginally smaller increases in perceived output... thus acting as sort of a reverse loudness function. Also, low xmax subs tend to have higher distortion products... the effect of which is much like the Maxxbass dsp... which adds upper end harmonics into the sound making it sound punchier, faster, and more lively... the tradeoff of course being a departure from the accuracy of the recording.


A discussion about compression ratios and their effect on what the listener hears is well beyond my knowledge base, so someone more knowledgeable than I will have to chime in on your theory. However, why would you say a sub "suffers" from compression if the effect is indeed to make the sub sound "better?" That would seem to be a good thing, rather than a bad thing, to me. 

With regard to the "departure from the accuracy of the recording," unless you are the recording engineer (or was involved with the recording process), there's no way you can know whether what you are hearing played back is an accurate reproduction of the performance that was recorded. And, the performance that was recorded is not necessarily an accurate reproduction of the particular voice or instrument recorded as part of that perfomance, not when you add in microphones, cables and mixing boards and the artifacts they add to the recorded performance.  




npdang said:


> . . . I simply think that a deeper understanding of the mechanics behind why something sounds the way it does is a useful tool to achieving better sound in your car at less expense and trial and error.


I agree that an understanding of the technical reasons why something sounds the way it does is helpful. Nonetheless, having total ignorance of those reasons does not change what we hear. Everyone who has posted comments on this thread and owns an Ultimo, or has listened to one, have ALL said the same thing: It's the best sounding (from an SQ perspective) sub they have ever heard. No one who has posted any comments on this thread can identify, with any certainty, the reasons why the Ultimo sounds the way it does to them. Sure, we would love to know all the specific technical reasons why the Ultimo sounds better than the competition we have listened to, but not knowing this information does not not make us smile any less when we sit in our cars listening to our systems, of which the Ultimo is an integral part.


----------



## Buzzman

somegreekguy said:


> "That said, I like to know the reason why something sounds good. You may find it hard to believe, but many an audio company makes marketing claims with no actual science to back it up. Its good to have a site like this to dig through the marketing and sales rep parroting and get the real data".
> 
> -Amen. x2.


Once you have been around this site a bit you too will realize that it's also full of misinformation. Not everyone who spouts off or has a high post count knows what they are talking about. Read carefully, follow wisely, and trust your own ears.


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## t3sn4f2

AE Speakers Online Store

Ultimo performance on a budget.


----------



## Buzzman

t3sn4f2 said:


> AE Speakers Online Store
> 
> Ultimo performance on a budget.


Included with such a bold statement should be affirmation that you used/listened to both products under identical circumanstances and with applications best suited to extract the woofer's best performance.  Otherwise, the claim is of no consequence.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I stopped reading the last page or so...

This seems like another one of those arguments where people are wondering if amplifier specs REALLY do change tonal response, etc.

Bottom line, figure out what sound you prefer. Measured characteristics will always correlate with physical characteristics. The hard part is identifying the relationship. If the sound you like is colored in any way then those measured specs should in some way parallel your preference.

i.e. many people prefer the "sound" of tube amplifiers. Their properties of distortion and signal handling are not the same as resistor based signal reproduction.

The reason NPDang is bringing up measurements vs. real world is because transition between drivers and sounds that roll off upwards of 800hz DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. This sub may not be accurate in any regard to measurements BUT it seems to "play" exactly how the Op prefers his sound. Why?

The goal of this forum is to identify preference and try to design systems that mitigate the need for trial and error.

When you throw up reviews of "I think" it bothers people like NPdang because it doesn't help anybody!!! "I think" needs to be backed up with reasonable knowledge or assumptions that helped make the purchase. It also needs to show how and why said purchase seemed to match the other drivers being used.

In the end...opinion doesn't replace application of knowledge.


----------



## MiniVanMan

Buzzman said:


> Included with such a bold statement should be affirmation that you used/listened to both products under identical circumanstances and with applications best suited to extract the woofer's best performance.  Otherwise, the claim is of no consequence.


Neither is your counter argument. Prove him wrong? He made a claim. You refute claim. Neither is of any consequence unless data is used to back it up. So, if you really want to refute him provide some real details.

In other words, his claim is just as valid as yours. 

Such is the world of the internet. 

I can offer a bit of insight into what he's talking about. 

Scroll 3/4 of the way down on this page to the Lambda Acoustics 001 motor design.

LDSG Section 1 - driver motors

Oddly seems to have that "unique and uncommon" double stacked motor. 

Since AE and Morel use the same motor structure, and the AE is significantly cheaper, then I say t3sn4f2 has a somewhat valid argument. 

Now, your counter argument is......?


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## Killa Camry

great in depeth review man.


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## audiodepot101

MiniVanMan said:


> Neither is your counter argument. Prove him wrong? He made a claim. You refute claim. Neither is of any consequence unless data is used to back it up. So, if you really want to refute him provide some real details.
> 
> In other words, his claim is just as valid as yours.
> 
> Such is the world of the internet.
> 
> I can offer a bit of insight into what he's talking about.
> 
> Scroll 3/4 of the way down on this page to the Lambda Acoustics 001 motor design.
> 
> LDSG Section*1 - driver motors
> 
> Oddly seems to have that "unique and uncommon" double stacked motor.
> 
> Since AE and Morel use the same motor structure, and the AE is significantly cheaper, then I say t3sn4f2 has a somewhat valid argument.
> 
> Now, your counter argument is......?


One thing that you fail to realize is the type of magnet and the displacement of the magnet.Ultimo speakers have the magnet in the center of the voice coil rather than around the outside so from the outside you cannot actually see the magnet. Makes a difference maybe why? I will leave that to the experts.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Physically I don't see how it helps or hurts the situation. It helps the situation by allowing the same manufacturing money to be spent towards refined accuracy vs. resources. It hurts the cause because you might need a more expensive magnet.

However, maybe the larger coil allows better control? Better control over the cone seems to be the resounding characteristic with this setup. In that regard...maybe the combination of the magnet/coil arrangement plus motor design is the real reason everybody loves the sound?


edit: I apologize if I sound like an idiot. I'm trying to learn :/


----------



## monkeybutt

t3sn4f2 said:


> AE Speakers Online Store
> 
> Ultimo performance on a budget.


Dang, not you in particular NP, look at the Le on these things. .196 mH, that even possible? Quite blendy - that a word? And forget about the 12", look at that... 

AV15-X - 4 ohm
Fs: 24Hz
Qms: 4.1
Vas: 197L
Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 200g
Rms: 7.4kg/s
Xmax: 23mm
Sd: 794sqcm
Qes: .39
Re: 3.2
Le: .196mH
Z: 4ohm
Bl: 15.6Tm
Pe: 1000W
Qts: .36
1W SPL: 90.4dB 
2.83V: 94.3dB 

Looks to model well 1.8 cuft sealed. And well hey that's exactly the size box in my trunk and... well sorry for the offtopic ADDism, but I felt the need to divert myself from the aquired heat of this awesome thread about this apparently awesome sub. Anyway, so between these two subs, similar characteristics are low Le and motor structures. I'm still trying to pay attention.


----------



## MiniVanMan

I800C0LLECT said:


> Physically I don't see how it helps or hurts the situation. It helps the situation by allowing the same manufacturing money to be spent towards refined accuracy vs. resources. It hurts the cause because you might need a more expensive magnet.
> 
> However, maybe the larger coil allows better control? Better control over the cone seems to be the resounding characteristic with this setup. In that regard...maybe the combination of the magnet/coil arrangement plus motor design is the real reason everybody loves the sound?
> 
> 
> edit: I apologize if I sound like an idiot. I'm trying to learn :/


Here's the thing. In the DIY community we have access to literally hundreds of motor topologies for all kinds of applications. Some are better than others, some are easier to implement than others, some are cheaper, or more expensive than others. Somebody usually holds intellectual rights to some of the more popular designs, i.e. Dan Wiggins and his XBL^2. 

When something comes out and makes real waves in the audio community (amongst the engineers that is), you HEAR about it. It's everywhere being dissected, and analyzed, XBL^2, Lambda 001, TC LMS motors, etc. Then you have companies that make variations on various technologies, like AA did after the rift with Wiggins. AA, and RE at the time utilized an old technology that was public domain to mimic XBL^2 begging the question, how much of a leap was XBL^2 really? Very debatable topics and beaten to death over the last decade.

So, Morel comes out with some new motor topology.  I can GUARANTEE that if they really found something new, their marketing campaign would revolve around providing real performance data, links to patents, and a wealth of information to state their new superiority in the speaker design world. It wouldn't just be words on paper, and pretty pictures. They would hold intellectual rights, and be protected under international law from copyright infringement, then people would PAY to utilize that motor structure for their own profit. 

This isn't the case with this new Morel offering. It's a bunch of flashy wording, to which NOBODY has explained what the hell "90% efficiency" means. It revolves around marketing bull ****, and not any real substance. That tells me that there's nothing really special about this motor. 

Now that doesn't mean that they have failed in application. That doesn't mean their motor isn't good, and that the subwoofer isn't good. It's a sum of it's parts. The question is, what are you getting for the incredibly high price tag, that you can't get with a more conventional, cheaper, albeit well executed design?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

So the reality at this point is rehashed technology designed in such a way that they don't get in trouble for infringement on design.

I don't know much about speaker specs but I think that large coil has a lot to do with what people are describing for sound quality. Otherwise, I don't see how it's any different.

Is the purpose of XBL^2 to maintain a larger magnetic field for coil operation? If so that means you could possibly control a larger movement with better accuracy and that could lead to more displacement?


----------



## Mooble

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ultimo is some revolutionary new sub that incorporates alien technology. I would like to know why it sounds better. I believe the answer must lie in some combination of specs. The large coil is the one thing that is truly unusual about the Ultimo, but I doubt that alone explains what we are hearing. 

Please understand people, we are not idiots. I didn't walk into some audio store and buy an Ultimo because someone recommended it. I bought one after I heard it. It sounded that different to me. I've owned a half dozen different subs and heard countless others. The Ultimo is the best I've heard. Argue all you want about technology, but I've heard XBL 2 subs and I've heard underhung subs--they didn't sound as good. I don't care if they have lower distortion. I've heard Seas, GTIs, DIYMAs, SI Mags, and all the other subs that everyone loves to brag about. They didn't sound as good to me. 

As for coloration, it's the boomy subs that add coloration. That sound is not present in live music (granted much of the sub bass we here is electronically generated anyway). Yes, other subs have less boominess than others, but none of them can match the Ultimo. If you like sloopy, echoing bass, you would not like the Ultimo. No one is saying it's the best sub for everyone. We're all just saying that it's the best one that we've heard for our tastes. 

Argue all you want about why it shouldn't be any better than a $250 sub. I've heard most of them. It IS better to me and those of us who ran out and bought one after we heard it.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

You make me wanna buy one Mooble 

I'm just cheap :/


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> I don't understand this "question" What do you mean by "quantify" in this context? Are you asking HOW MUCH or WHAT PERCENTAGE of what the listener is hearing he/she would attribute to a particular driver in a sound system?


Quantify simply means to put some objective measure on it. If you're talking about subwoofer "speed" or "transparency".... what does it mean in objective terms? 



> Interesting. So are you suggesting that we as MUSIC listeners should be fully satisfied with ANY subwoofer we install in our system because they all sound alike with test tones?


Nowhere do I suggest that. It's well established that any complex signal can be broken down into simple tones. Simple tones are also much easier for our ears to distinguish than complex tones which may mask or confuse the very thing we are trying to hear. In other words, why use music if you're trying to listen for distortion for example? It's very difficult to hear with music because there's so many other things going on... it's like having someone douse you with water, set your feet on fire, and slap you in the face while you try to listen. My whole point is that test tones are a perfectly substitutable, and more effective way to "hear" certain differences between drivers. It is NOT a substitute for music when gauging OTHER performance aspects... (for example, while its easier to hear distortion in a pure tone than in music, it would not be very useful to use tones in order to establish the low end sensitivity of a driver.)

In this case, I would be interested to hear why you believe that "music" is a better signal source for hearing stored energy in drivers.



> Again, interesting. So, in my situation where I used the same car, same head unit, same processor, same amplifiers, same cables, same midbass, same midrange, same tweeter, same low pass crossover frequency for sub, same bandpass frequency for midbass and midrange, and same high pass frequency for the tweeters, installed 5 different subwoofers in enclosures intended for optimal SQ based on their T/S parameters and my SQ objectives (i.e., reasonably flat in-car response), and concluded that the Ultimo was superior in all respects to 4 other subwoofers, with music played through it, not test tones (the same music, by the way, was used for my testing), would you say I was delusional in my conclusion because I should not have heard any difference among these subs?


You have failed to fully control for a number of factors IF a pure driver to driver comparison was your ultimate goal. For example... you used the same lowpass frequency for the sub... however that fails to control for the integration of each sub and its unique upper end response into the midbass. You failed to control for the different efficiency and low end sensitivity of each driver. You say you placed each driver into their "optimal SQ" based enclosure... yet did you measure the driver's actual parameters? Did you measure the in-car response to achieve matched responses? Did you do a blind listening test? Was placement of the subwoofer in the exact same position and orientation?

Ultimately, I'm not saying that your test wasn't valid. It just wasn't valid as a pure driver to driver comparison. If you want to say in my car, with my setup, and to my listening preferences the Morel Ultimo sounded "better" than these other subs you are fully qualified to do so based upon your testing.

I have yet to see though how you have invalidated my approach to linking "speed" and "transparency" to factors other than what I have described.



> A discussion about compression ratios and their effect on what the listener hears is well beyond my knowledge base, so someone more knowledgeable than I will have to chime in on your theory. However, why would you say a sub "suffers" from compression if the effect is indeed to make the sub sound "better?" That would seem to be a good thing, rather than a bad thing, to me.


Compression is usually considered to be a "bad thing" because it makes your driver's low end sensitivity volume dependent, not to mention it wastes power.



> With regard to the "departure from the accuracy of the recording," unless you are the recording engineer (or was involved with the recording process), there's no way you can know whether what you are hearing played back is an accurate reproduction of the performance that was recorded. And, the performance that was recorded is not necessarily an accurate reproduction of the particular voice or instrument recorded as part of that perfomance, not when you add in microphones, cables and mixing boards and the artifacts they add to the recorded performance.


Full agreement here. Can you see why subjective listening with respect to gauging the accuracy of a recording might be a futile exercise without objective data? (What would you use as a reference, since no speaker is capable of perfect reproduction?)



> I agree that an understanding of the technical reasons why something sounds the way it does is helpful. Nonetheless, having total ignorance of those reasons does not change what we hear. Everyone who has posted comments on this thread and owns an Ultimo, or has listened to one, have ALL said the same thing: It's the best sounding (from an SQ perspective) sub they have ever heard. No one who has posted any comments on this thread can identify, with any certainty, the reasons why the Ultimo sounds the way it does to them. Sure, we would love to know all the specific technical reasons why the Ultimo sounds better than the competition we have listened to, but not knowing this information does not not make us smile any less when we sit in our cars listening to our systems, of which the Ultimo is an integral part.


I agree, it does not change what we hear... it changes what we we "think" we hear if that makes sense. In other words... you may think this sub sounds a certain way because of X reason, when in reality it is Y reason.


----------



## bassfromspace

Mooble said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing that the Ultimo is some revolutionary new sub that incorporates alien technology. I would like to know why it sounds better. I believe the answer must lie in some combination of specs. The large coil is the one thing that is truly unusual about the Ultimo, but I doubt that alone explains what we are hearing.
> 
> Please understand people, we are not idiots. I didn't walk into some audio store and buy an Ultimo because someone recommended it. I bought one after I heard it. It sounded that different to me. I've owned a half dozen different subs and heard countless others. The Ultimo is the best I've heard. Argue all you want about technology, but I've heard XBL 2 subs and I've heard underhung subs--they didn't sound as good. I don't care if they have lower distortion. I've heard Seas, GTIs, DIYMAs, SI Mags, and all the other subs that everyone loves to brag about. They didn't sound as good to me.
> 
> As for coloration, it's the boomy subs that add coloration. That sound is not present in live music (granted much of the sub bass we here is electronically generated anyway). Yes, other subs have less boominess than others, but none of them can match the Ultimo. If you like sloopy, echoing bass, you would not like the Ultimo. No one is saying it's the best sub for everyone. We're all just saying that it's the best one that we've heard for our tastes.
> 
> Argue all you want about why it shouldn't be any better than a $250 sub. I've heard most of them. It IS better to me and those of us who ran out and bought one after we heard it.


If you didn't initially hear the sub in a controlled enviroment, how do you know it was the sub you liked?

It could've been that particular persons install or tuning that you liked the sound of rather than that particular sub.


----------



## npdang

Let me clear the air since regrettably many people are not getting the gist of what I'm saying.

I don't care about the design of the Morel sub! I don't want to duplicate it, nor do I want to reverse engineer it. I've had a half dozen double magnet Morel mids in the past and they all have terrible distortion performance, and IMHO sound like it. Zaph doesn't seem too think too highly of them either. Zaph|Audio. It doesn't matter anyway... it's my opinion. Buy what you like.

All I'm saying is that IN MY EXPERIENCE when people talk about subwoofers being fast, tight, transparent etc. in MOST cases they are referring to how its setup and tuned, and not to any completely inherent quality of the driver. Hence my sig.

As MVM has already pointed out, I cannot PROVE this point to anyone on the internet. I have however convinced many people in the past not to give up on whatever sub they currently own by simply applying a little tuning to their setup. It's not too hard to experiment and see for yourself and draw your own conclusions either.

What I can PROVE, and I do have the data somewhere on my computer is that subwoofer "speed" has nothing to do with stored energy in the driver itself. I would challenge anyone to post results that show that there is a significant measurable difference between a so called "fast" sounding sub and a "slow" sounding sub with respect to stored energy.


----------



## Mooble

bassfromspace said:


> If you didn't initially hear the sub in a controlled enviroment, how do you know it was the sub you liked?


A good point. In my case it was easy. I knew the car in which it was installed and, in fact, I helped set up that car. I had heard it a dozen different times with different subs, some of which used to be mine. When he installed the Ultimo, I knew something was different. I played a bass track in my car and then hopped in his. The bass was noticeably different. It wasn't blending causing it. This was low sub bass. Even if it had been blending, I already knew how his car sounded with previous subs. 

The same is true for my car. I can promise you that nothing changed in my car with the exception of the sub stage. When I installed the Ultimo the slope was the same, the EQ was the same, everything else was the same except volume (which I adjusted to match the old setup). The Morel sounded different.

You can argue about a few cars being badly tuned, but I've heard a lot of cars, especially at Brownieque. I just don't think it's logical that all these cars were poorly tuned and that suddenly I got it right with the Ultimo in my car and that's why it sounds better. I mentioned before that Shiv's enclosure is .5 cubes smaller than mine (and mine has about a pound of fill too). We even have the same amp for sub stage. Half a cube is big in tuning terms. Still, the Ultimo sounds like an Ultimo. 

I think this thread has reached the end of its usefulness. We all love the Ultimo. I don't think it's worth $899, but I got mine for half that as did several of the people in this thread. I've heard many subs and this one is the best and it can't be due to tuning alone. Take that for what it's worth.


----------



## audiodepot101

THE END.


----------



## npdang

Mooble said:


> A good point. In my case it was easy. I knew the car in which it was installed and, in fact, I helped set up that car. I had heard it a dozen different times with different subs, some of which used to be mine. When he installed the Ultimo, I knew something was different. I played a bass track in my car and then hopped in his. The bass was noticeably different. It wasn't blending causing it. This was low sub bass. Even if it had been blending, I already knew how his car sounded with previous subs.
> 
> The same is true for my car. I can promise you that nothing changed in my car with the exception of the sub stage. When I installed the Ultimo the slope was the same, the EQ was the same, everything else was the same except volume (which I adjusted to match the old setup). The Morel sounded different.
> 
> You can argue about a few cars being badly tuned, but I've heard a lot of cars, especially at Brownieque. I just don't think it's logical that all these cars were poorly tuned and that suddenly I got it right with the Ultimo in my car and that's why it sounds better. I mentioned before that Shiv's enclosure is .5 cubes smaller than mine (and mine has about a pound of fill too). We even have the same amp for sub stage. Half a cube is big in tuning terms. Still, the Ultimo sounds like an Ultimo.
> 
> I think this thread has reached the end of its usefulness. We all love the Ultimo. I don't think it's worth $899, but I got mine for half that as did several of the people in this thread. I've heard many subs and this one is the best and it can't be due to tuning alone. Take that for what it's worth.


If all we are going to rely on is anecdotal evidence, then I would agree completely that this thread has reached the end of its usefulness.


----------



## Mooble

npdang said:


> If all we are going to rely on is anecdotal evidence, then I would agree completely that this thread has reached the end of its usefulness.


That's ultimately all we have. No one said the Ultimo has better specs than any other sub we've heard, just that it subjectively sounds better.


----------



## Niebur3

Mooble said:


> That's ultimately all we have. No one said the Ultimo has better specs than any other sub we've heard, just that it subjectively sounds better.


I think you 2 need a "time out"....lol.


----------



## Mooble

Niebur3 said:


> I think you 2 need a "time out"....lol.


I respect npdang's knowledge and what he is trying to say. I wish I could explain which parameters made the Ultimo sound different. I know that it does, but I can't quantify it.


----------



## npdang

Mooble said:


> That's ultimately all we have. No one said the Ultimo has better specs than any other sub we've heard, just that it subjectively sounds better.


And I totally respect that. In fact I've probably said it a dozen times over... if you like it, you like it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and experiences. No one needs to defend what they think about any driver, whether good or bad.

I think I've already made all of the points I wanted to make. My purpose isn't to discredit anyone's opinions, but to hopefully open some people up to investigating why things sound the way they do.


----------



## flamefox850

Sorry to interrupt, but i have below questions for NPDANG

Nguyen, from ur knowledge and experience, what are the specs/parameter/construction/material that cause the characteristics of a subwoofer as below :

1) transparency

2) speed


why an X subwoofer is so 'transparent' and why a Y subwoofer is so 'fast' ?

Thanks


----------



## t3sn4f2

flamefox850 said:


> Sorry to interrupt, but i have below questions for NPDANG
> 
> Nguyen, from ur knowledge and experience, what are the specs/parameter/construction/material that cause the characteristics of a subwoofer as below :
> 
> 1) transparency
> 
> 2) speed
> 
> 
> why an X subwoofer is so 'transparent' and why a Y subwoofer is so 'fast' ?
> 
> Thanks


I'm pretty sure the answer is in this thread, at least a couple times.


----------



## snaimpally

npdang said:


> Let me clear the air since regrettably many people are not getting the gist of what I'm saying.
> 
> I don't care about the design of the Morel sub! I don't want to duplicate it, nor do I want to reverse engineer it. I've had a half dozen double magnet Morel mids in the past and they all have terrible distortion performance, and IMHO sound like it. Zaph doesn't seem too think too highly of them either. Zaph|Audio. It doesn't matter anyway... it's my opinion. Buy what you like.
> 
> All I'm saying is that IN MY EXPERIENCE when people talk about subwoofers being fast, tight, transparent etc. in MOST cases they are referring to how its setup and tuned, and not to any completely inherent quality of the driver. Hence my sig.
> 
> As MVM has already pointed out, I cannot PROVE this point to anyone on the internet. I have however convinced many people in the past not to give up on whatever sub they currently own by simply applying a little tuning to their setup. It's not too hard to experiment and see for yourself and draw your own conclusions either.
> 
> What I can PROVE, and I do have the data somewhere on my computer is that subwoofer "speed" has nothing to do with stored energy in the driver itself. I would challenge anyone to post results that show that there is a significant measurable difference between a so called "fast" sounding sub and a "slow" sounding sub with respect to stored energy.


One thing I want to point out is that this is in the User Reviews and not the Klippel review section. So I have no Klippel data to anayze to conclude that the Ultimo sounds better because of XYZ measurement. I am also curious as to whether the 3 questions you asked are answered by other reviews in this section (i.e., not the Klippel section). Please point me to some reviews in this section that answer the three questions you have posed so that I can better understand what you are looking for.

I have no way to prove that the Morel sounds "fast" compared to other subs, but that is the best adjective I could come up with. I suspect that part of this has to do with physically holding the sub and seeing how light it is compared to most other subs. The other has to do with the sound - the notes are hit without any audible trace of the presence of a sub. So I think of other subs providing some audible coloration as a result of their "slowness", e.g. massive surround, massive magnet, etc. I have heard my fair share of subs. So if "fast" bothers you, please substitute "transparent". 

I agree that most subs, with proper tuning, can be made to blend in realtively seamlessly in any setup and certainly my intent in posting this review was not discourage people for getting the most out of their existing setup. *Proper placement and tuning can make a huge difference*, even more than the drivers selected, in some cases. That said, the Ultimo is much easier to work with to get it to blend in because of its characteristics. We have some very experienced car audio guys in Austin, and between them they have heard hundreds of subs over the years. Yet, all of them have uniformly commented on the uniqueness of the sound of the Ultimo, particularly its transparency, compared to any of the other hundreds of subs they have heard.

I agree that we have pretty much exhausted any meaningful discussion on the merits of the Ultimo. Perhaps Buzzman can let you hear it.

*I would urge everyone interested in a top notch SQ sub to put the Ultimo on their "audition" list. You owe it to yourself to at least listen to it. The Ultimo sounds unlike any other sub I have ever heard.*


----------



## jp88

wow this thread feels like Im reading a sales pitch straight from Morel.


----------



## SirMilo

***Note to self after reading this thread***
Never, ever, state any opinion on any gear without scientific research and data to back up my opinion.

Isn't it about time for a thread-lock?


----------



## bassfromspace

SirMilo said:


> ***Note to self after reading this thread***
> Never, ever, state any opinion on any gear without scientific research and data to back up my opinion.
> 
> Isn't it about time for a thread-lock?


Maybe a more "AUDIOPHILE"-type environment would suit you better.


----------



## SirMilo

bassfromspace said:


> Maybe a more "AUDIOPHILE"-type environment would suit you better.


I don't think so- but where would you suggest? 
Just curious WTF I did to you?

I was simply stating that everyone seems to agree this thread has run its useful course and it may be prudent to lock the thread. The OP has come close to being attacked for being without scientific data to back up his OPINION. I will not make this mistake, as noted in my previous post.


----------



## jp88

SirMilo said:


> I don't think so- but where would you suggest?
> Just curious WTF I did to you?
> 
> I was simply stating that everyone seems to agree this thread has run its useful course and it may be prudent to lock the thread. The OP has come close to being attacked for being without scientific data to back up his OPINION. I will not make this mistake, as noted in my previous post.


To be honest I was more bothered by the OP quoting verbatim from the manufacturers sales literature to back his opinion, than I would have been had he not backed up his opinion at all.


----------



## SirMilo

jp88-
My post was in no way directed towards you.
It was an observation over the last few pages in this thread.


I guess I should really just ignore the thread rather than unintentionally aggravate some of the posters.


----------



## bassfromspace

SirMilo said:


> I don't think so- but where would you suggest?
> Just curious WTF I did to you?
> 
> I was simply stating that everyone seems to agree this thread has run its useful course and it may be prudent to lock the thread. The OP has come close to being attacked for being without scientific data to back up his OPINION. I will not make this mistake, as noted in my previous post.


You haven't done anything to me personally. I'm simply offering a solution to a problem you've identified.

Noone's attacked Mooble. What you're witnessing is a throwback to the old DIYMA. It may seem harsh, but it helps further the hobby in the end.


----------



## SirMilo

bassfromspace said:


> You haven't done anything to me personally. I'm simply offering a solution to a problem you've identified.
> 
> Noone's attacked Mooble. What you're witnessing is a throwback to the old DIYMA. It may seem harsh, but it helps further the hobby in the end.



I thought I had offended you in some way.
I haven't been a member here too long so I don't know anything about the DIYMA of old.
I appreciate you clearing that up for me.


----------



## bassfromspace

SirMilo said:


> I thought I had offended you in some way.
> I haven't been a member here too long so I don't know anything about the DIYMA of old.
> I appreciate you clearing that up for me.


No problemo.

There's definately no ill will toward anyone. It's all for the hobby.


----------



## audiodepot101

snaimpally said:


> One thing I want to point out is that this is in the User Reviews and not the Klippel review section. So I have no Klippel data to anayze to conclude that the Ultimo sounds better because of XYZ measurement. I am also curious as to whether the 3 questions you asked are answered by other reviews in this section (i.e., not the Klippel section). Please point me to some reviews in this section that answer the three questions you have posed so that I can better understand what you are looking for.
> 
> I have no way to prove that the Morel sounds "fast" compared to other subs, but that is the best adjective I could come up with. I suspect that part of this has to do with physically holding the sub and seeing how light it is compared to most other subs. The other has to do with the sound - the notes are hit without any audible trace of the presence of a sub. So I think of other subs providing some audible coloration as a result of their "slowness", e.g. massive surround, massive magnet, etc. I have heard my fair share of subs. So if "fast" bothers you, please substitute "transparent".
> 
> I agree that most subs, with proper tuning, can be made to blend in realtively seamlessly in any setup and certainly my intent in posting this review was not discourage people for getting the most out of their existing setup. *Proper placement and tuning can make a huge difference*, even more than the drivers selected, in some cases. That said, the Ultimo is much easier to work with to get it to blend in because of its characteristics. We have some very experienced car audio guys in Austin, and between them they have heard hundreds of subs over the years. Yet, all of them have uniformly commented on the uniqueness of the sound of the Ultimo, particularly its transparency, compared to any of the other hundreds of subs they have heard.
> 
> I agree that we have pretty much exhausted any meaningful discussion on the merits of the Ultimo. Perhaps Buzzman can let you hear it.
> 
> *I would urge everyone interested in a top notch SQ sub to put the Ultimo on their "audition" list. You owe it to yourself to at least listen to it. The Ultimo sounds unlike any other sub I have ever heard.*


Well said:bowdown:


----------



## npdang

snaimpally said:


> One thing I want to point out is that this is in the User Reviews and not the Klippel review section. So I have no Klippel data to anayze to conclude that the Ultimo sounds better because of XYZ measurement. I am also curious as to whether the 3 questions you asked are answered by other reviews in this section (i.e., not the Klippel section). Please point me to some reviews in this section that answer the three questions you have posed so that I can better understand what you are looking for.
> 
> I have no way to prove that the Morel sounds "fast" compared to other subs, but that is the best adjective I could come up with. I suspect that part of this has to do with physically holding the sub and seeing how light it is compared to most other subs. The other has to do with the sound - the notes are hit without any audible trace of the presence of a sub. So I think of other subs providing some audible coloration as a result of their "slowness", e.g. massive surround, massive magnet, etc. I have heard my fair share of subs. So if "fast" bothers you, please substitute "transparent".
> 
> I agree that most subs, with proper tuning, can be made to blend in realtively seamlessly in any setup and certainly my intent in posting this review was not discourage people for getting the most out of their existing setup. *Proper placement and tuning can make a huge difference*, even more than the drivers selected, in some cases. That said, the Ultimo is much easier to work with to get it to blend in because of its characteristics. We have some very experienced car audio guys in Austin, and between them they have heard hundreds of subs over the years. Yet, all of them have uniformly commented on the uniqueness of the sound of the Ultimo, particularly its transparency, compared to any of the other hundreds of subs they have heard.
> 
> I agree that we have pretty much exhausted any meaningful discussion on the merits of the Ultimo. Perhaps Buzzman can let you hear it.
> 
> *I would urge everyone interested in a top notch SQ sub to put the Ultimo on their "audition" list. You owe it to yourself to at least listen to it. The Ultimo sounds unlike any other sub I have ever heard.*


I'm really not looking for anything... just trying to open up some minds, for which I've probably failed miserably  

I think you have some interesting theories... I've had much the same thoughts in years past... I also think if you cared to, and you were to spend some time investigating them you might come up with some very interesting conclusions. Of course I do not suggest that you are under any obligation to do so as some people would imply.

End of the day, I strongly believe anecdotal experience will only take you so far.. its really up to each person to decide whether or not that's good enough for them.


----------



## audiodepot101

npdang said:


> End of the day, I strongly believe anecdotal experience will only take you so far.. its really up to each person to decide whether or not that's good enough for them.


For those who do not know what he means by the word anecdotal, "It means the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy" but that's another Thread. The End again.


----------



## jp88

audiodepot101 said:


> For those who do not know what he means by the word anecdotal, "It means the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy" but that's another Thread. The End again.


Anecdotal evidence (which is exactly what a subjective listening test such as the ones described in this thread are) Is certainly not the end all be all, any more than Objective testing.

It is however anecdotal and should certainly not be used to make sweeping claims.


----------



## audiodepot101

So you telling me if a 100 people say that they heard the exact same thing it should not be a valid claim That a driver sounds good, so why ask someone if a DRZ sounds good or a P9? can you give your opinion without scientific evidence on the matter. What the hell are buyers review for? Well the paper says it should sound this way?One thing that I have learned is that in order to come to a accurate conclusion you need to also listen to the driver at hand, and from the looks of things most people have not, so is their input valid without testing the driver itself? No matter what the paper says, its the performance that's gets the last word, I have not to this day heard of anyone saying that this driver sounds distorted or sucks and not worth the money. Please find me someone that has said this.In the end there are two sides, one that hears the music and one that see's the music. For me, I like to hear the music. if you are one that like to see, thats fine, but do we have to knock one another to do so?


----------



## Neu

nice !


----------



## jp88

If 100 people say bose sounds like the best stuff they have ever heard does that get rid of the midbass and lowbass and upperrange gaps?

ps Im outta this thread. npdang came in the spirit of diyma and asked some really insightfull questions, and was attacked for daring to ask any questions about objective data. 
That has always been one of the strong points and what I loved about diyma. Now it seems to be fast moving toward becoming a site full of "Audiophiles" trying to sell equipment with flowery words and little substance.


----------



## audiodepot101

As far as selling items you are dead wrong! I have had more audio drivers and amps and Head units then I care to list, but when someone offers their review of a item that they have bought, and others who ALSO own the same item agrees on the same conclusion that was drawn, and for you to say that is BS. Then shame on you. This was done in product review board forum, if you don't want to hear about the users personal experience with a product then delete this section. Never, and I mean Never have I seen such conduct towards a person giving a review, unless it was some one who has the same item.


----------



## kyheng

1 good review for a sub. And I see some other opinions too.
As end consumer, what are we expecting? Those objective numbers(specs), technology used may or may not important, who cares much any way. For me, what I care the most is its abilities to blend properly with the rest of the system. I only will say the sub is good when it is able to "poison" you until you can't accept other sub which I own 1 currently.


----------



## Mooble

jp88 said:


> npdang came in the spirit of diyma and asked some really insightfull questions, and was attacked for daring to ask any questions about objective data.
> That has always been one of the strong points and what I loved about diyma. Now it seems to be fast moving toward becoming a site full of "Audiophiles" trying to sell equipment with flowery words and little substance.


This is complete and utter ********. I for one, greatly welcomed npdang's opinions and insight. I was hoping he could provide some reasons why the Ultimo sounds the way we hear it sound. The one area where we disagree is in the blending. He thinks it's largely due to factors other than the sub itself. We are trying to convince him that it's not due to blending. We've ruled that out in our minds in many different ways. There is something different about the sub itself and I would love to know what. He is one of the best people on the site to help us figure that out.

No one is selling the Ultimo. We've simply heard it and think it's the best sounding sub we've ever heard. It handily beats a sub that retailed for $1,500 so you can't even make the "money makes SQ" argument. I've heard most of the forum boner subs and this one still sounds better. It's a shame that it costs so much, but unfortunately it does. The Ultimo SC sounds like a great option. It's half the price and hopefully 90% of the sound.


----------



## npdang

Mooble said:


> This is complete and utter ********. I for one, greatly welcomed npdang's opinions and insight. I was hoping he could provide some reasons why the Ultimo sounds the way we hear it sound. The one area where we disagree is in the blending. He thinks it's largely due to factors other than the sub itself. We are trying to convince him that it's not due to blending. We've ruled that out in our minds in many different ways. There is something different about the sub itself and I would love to know what. He is one of the best people on the site to help us figure that out.
> 
> No one is selling the Ultimo. We've simply heard it and think it's the best sounding sub we've ever heard. It handily beats a sub that retailed for $1,500 so you can't even make the "money makes SQ" argument. I've heard most of the forum boner subs and this one still sounds better. It's a shame that it costs so much, but unfortunately it does. The Ultimo SC sounds like a great option. It's half the price and hopefully 90% of the sound.


Actually, I believe I mentioned that the sub's extremely low inductance probably factors into how easy it is to integrate into the midbass... so we are not in disagreement there. 

What I'm trying to get at is... whether those factors that are related to the sub that contribute to this sound you hear... whether or not they can be duplicated through other means?

Is it just a matter of say taking a measurement, noticing a +3db peak at 50hz, and then using an equalizer to achieve the same effect with another driver all things being equal? Or is it something that generally can't be duplicated... such as the sub's unique distortion profile? 

Think about this question for example... what is the reason why one sub doesn't sound faster/quicker than any other when playing pure tones? Could it be perhaps... that it's because we have taken the frequency response/sensitivity of the driver out of the equation? When you play music... its a fairly complex signal with fundamentals and harmonics that cover a wide frequency range... the end result being that what you hear is going to be sorely impacted by the frequency response of the driver and room interactions... because those things change the spectral balance of what you hear... in plain terms... it changes how loud one frequency is with respect to another. With a single tone playing at a given matched output between drivers... what you hear isn't affected by any of that... you just hear the tone (there isn't any relationship between multiple frequencies)... therefore the spectral balance is exactly the same.

So given that the "speed" of a driver sounds the same when the spectral balance is the same... couldn't we just equalize our way to achieving the same spectral balance between drivers, and thus achieve the same effect?

Just my thoughts...


----------



## npdang

My last post was a bit confusing... let me rephrase some of it.

Let's work from the assumption that generally, test tones when played on different subs sound no faster or slower, heavier or leaner on either sub.

A test tone played on one sub will have the same spectral balance as one played on another sub, all things being equal.

Therefore, subs with the same spectral balance will sound the same in quickness or weight, all things being equal.


----------



## Mooble

How about this argument: speed vs acceleration. Wouldn't the strength of the motor and the moving mass affect how well it can can play music as opposed to test tones? I would equate speed to test tones. Once you build up a head of steam, momentum keeps you going. Acceleration would be how well a driver can respond to changes in music. A one note wonder sub could do an excellent job with one frequency, but it's horrible at being "musical."

We were also thinking about the size of the coil. I would think that the sheer size of the coil in relation to the cone allows a more even distribution and would thus reduce any tendency to flex. This might allow them to use a lighter cone that would ordinarily flex with a 2" voice coil, but is perfectly rigid with a 5.1" coil. Just a thought...


----------



## Buzzman

I have been away for a couple of days, and rather than respond to every post with which I disagree or take issue and risk prolonging this thread, let me try and summarize, as simply as possible, what SUBSTANTIVE information I have deduced from the various posts. It might even make you laugh just a little:

*Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* We have listened to a number of different subs in our cars, and the Ultimo is the best sounding subwoofer we have ever used. It has no real “character” of sound, is incredibly transparent, reproduces bass with a “tightness” and clarity we have not experienced before, and blends seamlessly with our front stage.

*Npdang:* I can’t verify what you say because I haven’t heard the sub. But, do you know why it sounds as good as you claim it does? You should know the answer to that question to fully appreciate what you are hearing, or “think” you are hearing.

*Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, tell us why it sounds so good? We want to know too.

*Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Hmmm. We don’t know why the sub sounds so damn good, man. All we know is that it does! Why don’t you reverse engineer the sub and tell us what you find, or ask Morel that question, they designed the damn thing. By the way, here is some stuff from Morel’s literature that might answer your question. Plus, a lot of reviewers from around the world who have raved about its sound quality have offered opinions about the design features of the Ultimo that contributes to its outstanding sound, read those reviews. We just put it in our cars and it kicked major ass. 

*Npdang: * Come on! I am not interested in reverse engineering the sub. I just want to open your minds, bring you over to the dark side where we make subjective conclusions on objective terms. You really need to figure out why the sub sounds the way you say it does. There are many external factors that affect the way a sub sounds. The environment and tuning probably affect how a sub sounds more than anything else. So, don’t get so excited about the Ultimo. It’s not like it sports some groundbreaking technology. Well, at least I don’t think so. In any event, any number of less expensive subs can sound as good. In my experience there is virtually no difference in the sound between subs. You can confirm this by running test tones through the sub in a “controlled environment” (i.e., mounted free air on a baffle). Dudes, it’s the room that really matters. Just drop a less expensive sub that measures well into your ride, properly tune, and voila, you will be just as happy. 

*Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, he’s right. And, who the hell cares what Morel has to say. It’s just marketing hype!

*Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Whoa! Hold on now. We don’t listen to test tones when we listen to our systems. We listen to music. When was the last time anybody said “Hey, did you hear the latest Michael Jackson test tone collection? And, we don’t have garages and equipment to mount woofers to baffles, run test tones through them and measure the results. So, let’s be practical, OK. We listen to the subs in the environment for which they were intended; our cars. And if something doesn’t sound good in the car, we don’t want it. We all have different cars, different equipment, and different music tastes, and have listened to lots of different subs. But there’s one consistent thing among us: we get awesome bass with the Ultimo in our systems and we like it better than anything else we have heard. 

*Npdang: * That’s cool, man. Nothing wrong with liking what you hear. In fact, I won’t call you nasty names if you buy what you like even though I think you are buying it for the wrong reasons. I just think it’s important to know why you are hearing what you like. 

*Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, it would be nice to know that, but till somebody can tell us with any certainty why we are hearing what we hear, we are just gonna sit back and enjoy the best bass we ever had in our cars. 

*Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Geez, you Ultimo owners are real knuckleheads. What’s so hard to understand? This is DIYMA, man! You can’t just claim something sounds good and expect everyone else to believe you, even if ALL of you claim the same thing. Come on man, this is DIYMA! You have to prove to us that there is a scientific basis for what you claim you are hearing. This is DIYMA man, you are not supposed to trust your ears. Don’t you know that? 

*Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Wow, we had no idea that liking something we listen to and telling everybody about it would have pissed you guys off so much. Why don’t you give the sub a listen and you will know what we are talking about. Till then, stop offering opinions that aren’t based on first-hand experience.

I think that pretty much sums things up. May this thread rest in peace.


----------



## npdang

Mooble said:


> How about this argument: speed vs acceleration. Wouldn't the strength of the motor and the moving mass affect how well it can can play music as opposed to test tones? I would equate speed to test tones. Once you build up a head of steam, momentum keeps you going. Acceleration would be how well a driver can respond to changes in music. A one note wonder sub could do an excellent job with one frequency, but it's horrible at being "musical."
> 
> We were also thinking about the size of the coil. I would think that the sheer size of the coil in relation to the cone allows a more even distribution and would thus reduce any tendency to flex. This might allow them to use a lighter cone that would ordinarily flex with a 2" voice coil, but is perfectly rigid with a 5.1" coil. Just a thought...


Well, you could always test all the frequencies individually rather than say it's a one note wonder.

Everything else you've said should be very easy to verify. I could just find two subs, one with a lower moving mass and a stronger motor... and run the same test. You would expect one to sound "faster" than the other. Question is, does it?


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> I have been away for a couple of days, and rather than respond to every post with which I disagree or take issue and risk prolonging this thread, let me try and summarize, as simply as possible, what SUBSTANTIVE information I have deduced from the various posts. It might even make you laugh just a little:
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* We have listened to a number of different subs in our cars, and the Ultimo is the best sounding subwoofer we have ever used. It has no real “character” of sound, is incredibly transparent, reproduces bass with a “tightness” and clarity we have not experienced before, and blends seamlessly with our front stage.
> 
> *Npdang:* I can’t verify what you say because I haven’t heard the sub. But, do you know why it sounds as good as you claim it does? You should know the answer to that question to fully appreciate what you are hearing, or “think” you are hearing.
> 
> *Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, tell us why it sounds so good? We want to know too.
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Hmmm. We don’t know why the sub sounds so damn good, man. All we know is that it does! Why don’t you reverse engineer the sub and tell us what you find, or ask Morel that question, they designed the damn thing. By the way, here is some stuff from Morel’s literature that might answer your question. Plus, a lot of reviewers from around the world who have raved about its sound quality have offered opinions about the design features of the Ultimo that contributes to its outstanding sound, read those reviews. We just put it in our cars and it kicked major ass.
> 
> *Npdang: * Come on! I am not interested in reverse engineering the sub. I just want to open your minds, bring you over to the dark side where we make subjective conclusions on objective terms. You really need to figure out why the sub sounds the way you say it does. There are many external factors that affect the way a sub sounds. The environment and tuning probably affect how a sub sounds more than anything else. So, don’t get so excited about the Ultimo. It’s not like it sports some groundbreaking technology. Well, at least I don’t think so. In any event, any number of less expensive subs can sound as good. In my experience there is virtually no difference in the sound between subs. You can confirm this by running test tones through the sub in a “controlled environment” (i.e., mounted free air on a baffle). Dudes, it’s the room that really matters. Just drop a less expensive sub that measures well into your ride, properly tune, and voila, you will be just as happy.
> 
> *Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, he’s right. And, who the hell cares what Morel has to say. It’s just marketing hype!
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Whoa! Hold on now. We don’t listen to test tones when we listen to our systems. We listen to music. When was the last time anybody said “Hey, did you hear the latest Michael Jackson test tone collection? And, we don’t have garages and equipment to mount woofers to baffles, run test tones through them and measure the results. So, let’s be practical, OK. We listen to the subs in the environment for which they were intended; our cars. And if something doesn’t sound good in the car, we don’t want it. We all have different cars, different equipment, and different music tastes, and have listened to lots of different subs. But there’s one consistent thing among us: we get awesome bass with the Ultimo in our systems and we like it better than anything else we have heard.
> 
> *Npdang: * That’s cool, man. Nothing wrong with liking what you hear. In fact, I won’t call you nasty names if you buy what you like even though I think you are buying it for the wrong reasons. I just think it’s important to know why you are hearing what you like.
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, it would be nice to know that, but till somebody can tell us with any certainty why we are hearing what we hear, we are just gonna sit back and enjoy the best bass we ever had in our cars.
> 
> *Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Geez, you Ultimo owners are real knuckleheads. What’s so hard to understand? This is DIYMA, man! You can’t just claim something sounds good and expect everyone else to believe you, even if ALL of you claim the same thing. Come on man, this is DIYMA! You have to prove to us that there is a scientific basis for what you claim you are hearing. This is DIYMA man, you are not supposed to trust your ears. Don’t you know that?
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Wow, we had no idea that liking something we listen to and telling everybody about it would have pissed you guys off so much. Why don’t you give the sub a listen and you will know what we are talking about. Till then, stop offering opinions that aren’t based on first-hand experience.
> 
> I think that pretty much sums things up. May this thread rest in peace.


I love how you go to such great lengths to make Ultimo owners appear so level headed, reasonable, and open minded... and everyone else pushy, unyielding, and demanding 

With all due respect, you've made a few disparaging comments in this thread directed at fellow DIYMA members... without really offering anything more substantive than "the Ultimo is the best sub ever!" 

No one is "pissed" that you like the Ultimo sub. Imo people are just frustrated due to the same old pattern of dithering/misdirection on the issues, re-posting marketing drivel as fact, and some rather condescending and utterly ridiculous statements that have taken place in this thread.


----------



## audiodepot101

What are you a dictator? Your post should be on Klippel Reviews & Driver Specs, This is members product reviews! So why are you guys hijacking his personal review? There is a place set for your theories. As far as I am concern there was a lot of unnecessary BS cause by the paper people, Go to Klippel Reviews & Driver Specs and start your own thread on the Ultimo! This is members product reviews! And if I am wrong then please explain to me what members product reviews means.


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> I love how you go to such great lengths to make Ultimo owners appear so level headed, reasonable, and open minded... and everyone else pushy, unyielding, and demanding
> 
> With all due respect, you've made a few disparaging comments in this thread directed at fellow DIYMA members... without really offering anything more substantive than "the Ultimo is the best sub ever!"
> 
> No one is "pissed" that you like the Ultimo sub. Imo people are just frustrated due to the same old pattern of dithering/misdirection on the issues, re-posting marketing drivel as fact, and some rather condescending and utterly ridiculous statements that have taken place in this thread.


I thought my last post was going to be my last, but I must respond. 

First, show me one "disparaging" comment or remark I made to anyone on this thread (or anywhere on this site for that matter), and I will publicly apologize. If you can't show me one, you owe me an apology.

Second, I didn't go to any "great lengths" to depict anyone in any particular light. This is my interpretation of what has transpired in this thread. Obviously, you don't agree with what I wrote. That is your prerogrative. But, often times the truth is painful to hear. 

Finally, I agree that in this thread "some rather condescending and utterly ridiculous statements" have been made. I even made a post addressing that, and one poster was man enough to apologize for his remarks. Props to him. But, it is wrong and unfair of you to claim that the "people are just frustrated due to the same old pattern of dithering/misdirection on the issues, re-posting marketing drivel as fact." Nowhere in the review that started this thread did the OP offer "marketing drivel as fact." He offered his opinions based on his personal listening experience. Others who heard and used the Ultimo did the same; offer their opinions. Others said based on the comments offered they can't wait to hear the sub or purchase it. Then, beginning on page 3 of the post you joined the chatter, and asked what I consider an entirely appropriate question which I address in my last post. Unfortunately, the thread went downhill after that, with all the personal attacks, etc. There were no issues before that. What you refer to as "marketing drivel" was offered by some only in an attempt to answer the question you posed. The facts are what they are.


----------



## Buzzman

audiodepot101 said:


> What are you a dictator? Your post should be on Klippel Reviews & Driver Specs, This is members product reviews! So why are you guys hijacking his personal review? There is a place set for your theories. As far as I am concern there was a lot of unnecessary BS cause by the paper people, Go to Klippel Reviews & Driver Specs and start your own thread on the Ultimo! This is members product reviews! And if I am wrong then please explain to me what members product reviews means.


I do respect and appreciate the passion you have, but sometimes a little more restraint is wiser.  Always understand your audience.


----------



## MiniVanMan

Buzzman and audiodepot101? How has this review advanced anybody's knowledge of audio? Maybe it's advanced somebody's decision on buying a Morel sub, then it can be argued that this thread should be in "Product Selection" and not "Member Product Reviews". I mean, if you want to go down that route we can.

Next, I've found that the people that don't find value in the Klippel results are the ones that don't understand them. So, yeah, I'm gonna call you out. You want to make it an "us vs. them" thing then we can do that as well.

Let's do that. Let's look at both sides. Side one, desires both objective and subjective data. Objective data is used to support subjective data. Objective data is what requires knowledge and education. It requires an understanding beyond simple marketing terms. It actually requires a fundamental knowledge all the way down to the physics and engineering of the piece of equipment in question. This is true of any medium. People that live and die by subjective reviews are at the mercy of any clown with a keyboard. You never know your source, though they may claim expertise, but when you call them on it they shout "HERETIC" in your face and gather like minded simpleton armies around them. 

This is a societal thing. Remember the geek in high school, the really smart guy that went on to be an engineer, physicist, chemist or something like that? Remember how he was laughed at and picked on? Well that guy went on to build a bridge that your car drives over every day. That guy went on to build a software platform that the cool kids use to jerk off to porn everyday.

Point being, when these debates come up, it always turns into an "us vs them" scenario where "we" are trying to educate and _teach_ members of this forum how to make _more_ informed decisions, and more informed reviews, and how to differentiate between marketing drivel and actual real world data. Then the armies of the clueless come a runnin' to their platforms of insecurity and denounce us as heretics because we actually understand what's going on.

This forum was founded on making informed decisions based on both subjective and measured test results. When the forum was founded there weren't all these separate sub forums. The reviews section was for _reviews_, both subjective and objective. Turns out this forum became successful because the objective was also presented so people could weed through the bull **** out there. 

Now the forum has taken several steps backward because the majority here just want to hear what's _best_, and not doing any real thinking on their own. So, yeah, call npdang, myself or any of the others that have outstayed their welcome "heretics". We're going to continue the good fight and hopefully get through to the one in a thousand that actually seem to care. Until then, to make sure you get the best performance from your Ultimo subwoofer, upgrade your fuses to an audiophile quality fuse. I mean, they do come with a glowing review.

6moons audio reviews: IsoClean audio-grade fuses


----------



## audiodepot101

Just for your info I am a Thin Film Engineer, and this is a hobby for me, and our family owns one of the best Companies in the world. So you never know who you are talking to. If you are implying that someone is dumb then you need to take a look in the mirror.MLD Technologies - Products & Services


----------



## t3sn4f2

audiodepot101 said:


> Just for your info I am a Thin Film Engineer, and this is a hobby for me, and our family owns one of the best Companies in the world. So you never know who you are talking to. If you are implying that someone is dumb then you need to take a look in the mirror.MLD Technologies - Products & Services


Thin Film Engineer? What's that, you design fruit roll up machines or something?


----------



## [email protected]

audiodepot101 said:


> Just for your info I am a Thin Film Engineer, and this is a hobby for me, and our family owns one of the best Companies in the world. So you never know who you are talking to. If you are implying that someone is dumb then you need to take a look in the mirror.MLD Technologies - Products & Services


What are you talking about? You are the one that thinks taking the non balanced output of your HU and wiring it to the balanced input on your amp had substantial gains


----------



## bassfromspace

t3sn4f2 said:


> Thin Film Engineer? What's that, you design fruit roll up machines or something?


Custom Saran Wrap.


----------



## MiniVanMan

audiodepot101 said:


> Just for your info I am a Thin Film Engineer, and this is a hobby for me, and our family owns one of the best Companies in the world. So you never know who you are talking to. If you are implying that someone is dumb then you need to take a look in the mirror.MLD Technologies - Products & Services


And??

When working with Lockheed Martin on the various optical arrays for the Apache Helicopter's guidance and targeting systems, we were doing some field modifications on the TADS/PNVS (Target Acquisition Designation System/Pilot Night Vision Sensor) where several representatives of different companies were present. This was somewhere around 1998. I remember the final decision was a company called "ThinFilms". The modification was due to the arrays starting to break down and pilots were getting artifacts in their displays. 

I wasn't the only one that thought this, but the "ThinFilms" just looked the best. Less infrared glare and ghosting due to extreme bright spots. For example, while using an artillery strike to cover the advance of a squadron of Apaches, the pilots would spot their targets, but say the artillery hit a truck, and the gasoline ignited. the infrared glare would saturate the HUD, and the pilot would have to spend critical moments in a hover position waiting for the saturation to go away. Critical moments mean death for the pilot, so saturation was one element. 

Ultimately though, the ThinFilms product just looked better. That's what really mattered.


----------



## bassfromspace

Thin film engineers make foreskin wraps.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I have a feeling that NPDang got into this when the reputation of the R12 was taken a shot at. I started raising my eye brows when I noticed that the R12 was considered sloppy.

In that regard...if the Ultimo is an almost perfect sound while the R12 suffers tremendous problems, I think this is where people are going down different roads.

The R12 has been reviewed again and again, we have specs, we have reasoning, engineering thoughts, etc. We only have specs and subjective listening for the Ultimo...

Are these the root issues? Furthermore, if the R12 was so terrible in the original installation while the Ultimo seemed to fall into place I would presume that NPdang took the route that tuning played a big role in final outcome. Not many people have said the R12 was sloppy, low on output...yes, but not sloppy.


Edit:


> I can now hear all sorts of mid-bass stuff that was being obscured by the flab of other subs such as the DIYMA


----------



## [email protected]

Buzzman said:


> I have been away for a couple of days, and rather than respond to every post with which I disagree or take issue and risk prolonging this thread, let me try and summarize, as simply as possible, what SUBSTANTIVE information I have deduced from the various posts. It might even make you laugh just a little:
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* We have listened to a number of different subs in our cars, and the Ultimo is the best sounding subwoofer we have ever used. It has no real “character” of sound, is incredibly transparent, reproduces bass with a “tightness” and clarity we have not experienced before, and blends seamlessly with our front stage.
> 
> *Npdang:* I can’t verify what you say because I haven’t heard the sub. But, do you know why it sounds as good as you claim it does? You should know the answer to that question to fully appreciate what you are hearing, or “think” you are hearing.
> 
> *Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, tell us why it sounds so good? We want to know too.
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Hmmm. We don’t know why the sub sounds so damn good, man. All we know is that it does! Why don’t you reverse engineer the sub and tell us what you find, or ask Morel that question, they designed the damn thing. By the way, here is some stuff from Morel’s literature that might answer your question. Plus, a lot of reviewers from around the world who have raved about its sound quality have offered opinions about the design features of the Ultimo that contributes to its outstanding sound, read those reviews. We just put it in our cars and it kicked major ass.
> 
> *Npdang: * Come on! I am not interested in reverse engineering the sub. I just want to open your minds, bring you over to the dark side where we make subjective conclusions on objective terms. You really need to figure out why the sub sounds the way you say it does. There are many external factors that affect the way a sub sounds. The environment and tuning probably affect how a sub sounds more than anything else. So, don’t get so excited about the Ultimo. It’s not like it sports some groundbreaking technology. Well, at least I don’t think so. In any event, any number of less expensive subs can sound as good. In my experience there is virtually no difference in the sound between subs. You can confirm this by running test tones through the sub in a “controlled environment” (i.e., mounted free air on a baffle). Dudes, it’s the room that really matters. Just drop a less expensive sub that measures well into your ride, properly tune, and voila, you will be just as happy.
> 
> *Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, he’s right. And, who the hell cares what Morel has to say. It’s just marketing hype!
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Whoa! Hold on now. We don’t listen to test tones when we listen to our systems. We listen to music. When was the last time anybody said “Hey, did you hear the latest Michael Jackson test tone collection? And, we don’t have garages and equipment to mount woofers to baffles, run test tones through them and measure the results. So, let’s be practical, OK. We listen to the subs in the environment for which they were intended; our cars. And if something doesn’t sound good in the car, we don’t want it. We all have different cars, different equipment, and different music tastes, and have listened to lots of different subs. But there’s one consistent thing among us: we get awesome bass with the Ultimo in our systems and we like it better than anything else we have heard.
> 
> *Npdang: * That’s cool, man. Nothing wrong with liking what you hear. In fact, I won’t call you nasty names if you buy what you like even though I think you are buying it for the wrong reasons. I just think it’s important to know why you are hearing what you like.
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Yeah, it would be nice to know that, but till somebody can tell us with any certainty why we are hearing what we hear, we are just gonna sit back and enjoy the best bass we ever had in our cars.
> 
> *Non Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Geez, you Ultimo owners are real knuckleheads. What’s so hard to understand? This is DIYMA, man! You can’t just claim something sounds good and expect everyone else to believe you, even if ALL of you claim the same thing. Come on man, this is DIYMA! You have to prove to us that there is a scientific basis for what you claim you are hearing. This is DIYMA man, you are not supposed to trust your ears. Don’t you know that?
> 
> *Morel Ultimo Owners/Users/Listeners:* Wow, we had no idea that liking something we listen to and telling everybody about it would have pissed you guys off so much. Why don’t you give the sub a listen and you will know what we are talking about. *Till then, stop offering opinions that aren’t based on first-hand experience.*
> 
> I think that pretty much sums things up. May this thread rest in peace.




So you have an opinion even if its first hand from listening to it. Its still an opinion, you have nothing factual to present, you guys are prob just trying to justify the expensive sub you bought and just want it to be better than anything out there


----------



## Mooble

We are conducting a massive subwoofer showdown here in Austin consisting of about 15 - 20 different subwoofers. Two of the contenders will be a Dayton HO and a DIYMA as well as the Ultimo. We will publish enclosure sizes, power, crossover settings, as well as subjective ratings. No one will be biased against the DIYMA or any other sub. If it fares well, we will say so. If it falls flat, so be it. You will know what enclosure size we used and you can repeat the test yourself. 

If you must know, we already have a contender for the Ultimo which was purchased for $150. Considering it sounds very similar to the Ultimo, it's a steal at that price. It's very different from the Ultimo in design and construction and yet they achieve the same sound. They have not gone head to head yet, but once we have narrowed down our selection to about 5 subs, we will put them up against each other. Results will be published in about a week...


----------



## Mooble

BeatsDownLow said:


> you guys are prob just trying to justify the expensive sub you bought and just want it to be better than anything out there


That's what I don't understand about your argument. We didn't buy an expensive sub and expect it to sound good. At least I didn't. I heard an absolutely amazing sub and it turned out to be expensive. I ponied up the money to buy it because it sounded THAT good to me. I didn't want it to be expensive, trust me.

I'm really starting to resent this argument that we are a bunch of hapless saps who fall for any marketing gimmick. I'm not a rich ****ing brat who walked into a high-priced audio store and bought a system with daddy's money. I've been into car audio since 1986 when I started planning my first system. I have bought some things based on reputation, but mostly I buy what I hear and like. If you don't like it, so be it, but we have collectively heard 100s of different subs between us (some even more expensive than the Ultimo) and we still think this is the best. Deal with it or don't. This has nothing to do with money!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Mooble said:


> We are conducting a massive *subwoofer showdown *here in Austin consisting of about 15 - 20 different subwoofers. Two of the contenders will be a Dayton HO and a DIYMA as well as the Ultimo. We will publish enclosure sizes, power, crossover settings, as well as subjective ratings. No one will be biased against the DIYMA or any other sub. If it fares well, we will say so. If it falls flat, so be it. You will know what enclosure size we used and you can repeat the test yourself.
> 
> If you must know, we already have a contender for the Ultimo which was purchased for $150. Considering it sounds very similar to the Ultimo, it's a steal at that price. It's very different from the Ultimo in design and construction and yet they achieve the same sound. They have not gone head to head yet, but once we have narrowed down our selection to about 5 subs, we will put them up against each other. Results will be published in about a week...


How are you going to manage a blind comparison with so many subs? That's gonna be difficult.


----------



## Mooble

When we have narrowed it down to the final contestants, we will have one person in charge of selecting the sub. The four (or more if we can get them) judges will rate the unknown sub for clarity, low end extension, blending ability, and boominess. I think any good sub should be able to get into the final round. Right now we have tested all the 10" subs. The 12" subs will be this coming weekend. That is when most of the "heavyweights" will be tested.

We will also publish RTA screenshots for all subs, not just the finalists.


----------



## Niebur3

WOW....someone posts a review and it turns into a pissing match. Damn....I think the whopper tastes better than the big mac, but have no scientific proof, just my own taste buds. Quit acting like desperate housewives, be men and agree to disagree! I think reviews help us all and this will make people think twice....great job everyone!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Mooble said:


> When we have narrowed it down to the final contestants, we will have one person in charge of selecting the sub. The four (or more if we can get them) judges will rate the unknown sub for clarity, low end extension, blending ability, and boominess.


Cool. It would also ve fair to run some FR measurements and see if with a little EQ work the cheapest sub can be made to sound like the most expesive one (if it turns out that way). This would not be such a good idea 20 years ago before EQ'ing was a common tool, but now it should be used the same way you would charge box volume to tune for a particular sound. Or so I would think.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Niebur3 said:


> WOW....someone posts a review and it turns into a pissing match. Damn....I think the whopper tastes better than the big mac, but have no scientific proof, just my own taste buds. Quit acting like desperate housewives, be men and agree to disagree! I think reviews help us all and *this will make people think twice*....great job everyone!


Hopefully.


----------



## lucas569

Mooble said:


> We are conducting a massive subwoofer showdown here in Austin consisting of about 15 - 20 different subwoofers. Two of the contenders will be a Dayton HO and a DIYMA as well as the Ultimo. We will publish enclosure sizes, power, crossover settings, as well as subjective ratings. No one will be biased against the DIYMA or any other sub. If it fares well, we will say so. If it falls flat, so be it. You will know what enclosure size we used and you can repeat the test yourself.
> 
> If you must know, we already have a contender for the Ultimo which was purchased for $150. Considering it sounds very similar to the Ultimo, it's a steal at that price. It's very different from the Ultimo in design and construction and yet they achieve the same sound. They have not gone head to head yet, but once we have narrowed down our selection to about 5 subs, we will put them up against each other. Results will be published in about a week...


cant wait! woohoo!


----------



## Mooble

t3sn4f2 said:


> Cool. It would also ve fair to run some FR measurements and see if with a little EQ work the cheapest sub can be made to sound like the most expesive one (if it turns out that way). This would not be such a good idea 20 years ago before EQ'ing was a common tool, but now it should be used the same way you would charge box volume to tune for a particular sound. Or so I would think.


We could try it for one of the worst subs to see how good we could make it sound. All of the subs are already being auto-tuned for best response. We are also trying to put them in the optimal enclosure size according to WINISD.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I'm glad something positive seems to be coming out of this


----------



## bassfromspace

Mooble said:


> We could try it for one of the worst subs to see how good we could make it sound. All of the subs are already being auto-tuned for best response. We are also trying to put them in the optimal enclosure size according to WINISD.


Admirable test guys.

Might I suggest you guys make a specific thread concerning the parameters of the test to avoid any future misunderstandings.


----------



## BigRed

Hey Buzz, below is the review you gave of the HSU....what happened? 

"I have used many excellent subwoofers in my car. The Hertz ML3000 (Free Air Version); Pioneer T-SW12PRS; JBL WGti Mk.II and Morel Ultimo 12 have all done time in my system. Until now, the Morel Ultimo 12 was my favorite. While there are characteristics about the Morel that I like more (it resolves low level detail better, for example) the Hsu Research ASW-1203 has given me the most satisfying overall performance of them all. The ASW-1203 delivers bass with great clarity, detail and articulation. It has great transient response. It does all this without drawing attention to itself. In my system it blended so well with my front stage that there was no localization behind me, and you wouldn’t know I had a sub playing except for how deep it goes. And it does go DEEP. I had the lowpass crossover to the sub at 45 Hz and the results were spectacular. If you need to cross it higher, you will benefit from the greater output in the upper bass/midbass region. The ASW-1203 takes very little amplifier power to reproduce the lower frequencies that are responsible for that realism and visceral impact we look for in our music. Its synergy with my DLS A6 is obvious. The Morel, on the other hand, needs a lot of power to fully display its capabilities, and the DLS A6 was not getting it fully there. Thus, the visceral impact of the bass was not the same as with the Hsu. And, the Morel’s 2 Ohm impedance certainly puts more stress on the amplifier and my system. The results may well be reversed with the use of a more powerful amplifier. But, factor in the fact that the Morel is 6 times the price of the Hsu, that a true SQ amp capable of putting out 1,000 Watts at 2 Ohms will carry a big price, the case for the Hsu is that much more compelling. In any event, until that day, the subwoofer “only a mother could love” (given its cosmetics), the Hsu Research ASW-1203, will be providing sub bass in my system. It’s that good, and the value is undeniable. "


----------



## fredridge

I heard the morel sub was so fast that it could do 30hz in only 25 cycles


----------



## Buzzman

BigRed said:


> Hey Buzz, below is the review you gave of the HSU....what happened?
> 
> "I have used many excellent subwoofers in my car. The Hertz ML3000 (Free Air Version); Pioneer T-SW12PRS; JBL WGti Mk.II and Morel Ultimo 12 have all done time in my system. Until now, the Morel Ultimo 12 was my favorite. While there are characteristics about the Morel that I like more (it resolves low level detail better, for example) the Hsu Research ASW-1203 has given me the most satisfying overall performance of them all. The ASW-1203 delivers bass with great clarity, detail and articulation. It has great transient response. It does all this without drawing attention to itself. In my system it blended so well with my front stage that there was no localization behind me, and you wouldn’t know I had a sub playing except for how deep it goes. And it does go DEEP. I had the lowpass crossover to the sub at 45 Hz and the results were spectacular. If you need to cross it higher, you will benefit from the greater output in the upper bass/midbass region. The ASW-1203 takes very little amplifier power to reproduce the lower frequencies that are responsible for that realism and visceral impact we look for in our music. Its synergy with my DLS A6 is obvious. The Morel, on the other hand, needs a lot of power to fully display its capabilities, and the DLS A6 was not getting it fully there. Thus, the visceral impact of the bass was not the same as with the Hsu. And, the Morel’s 2 Ohm impedance certainly puts more stress on the amplifier and my system. The results may well be reversed with the use of a more powerful amplifier. But, factor in the fact that the Morel is 6 times the price of the Hsu, that a true SQ amp capable of putting out 1,000 Watts at 2 Ohms will carry a big price, the case for the Hsu is that much more compelling. In any event, until that day, the subwoofer “only a mother could love” (given its cosmetics), the Hsu Research ASW-1203, will be providing sub bass in my system. It’s that good, and the value is undeniable. "


Jim, you are the last person from whom I would have expected selective quoting, and starting a controversy when there is none. Read the entire thread on my review of the Hsu Research sub and you would find the following:

9/30/09:

"I continued my experimentation with the Hsu ASW-1203 as I purchased a cheap pre-fab enclosure measuring 1.5 cubic feet to try it in. I have been very curious about what effect a larger enclosure would have. Well, I was extremely pleased with the results: flatter response, deeper bass extension, greater low frequency output and no loss of articulation. I just can’t get over how good this sub is, and its price makes it case even more compelling. Based on my experience to date I recommend 1.5 cubic feet as the target enclosure size, loosely filled with fiberglass or polyfill. I also like to use Black Hole 5 or No Rez from GR Research to line the enclosure. Note that if you use Black Hole 5 you have to increase the internal volume by about 10%. 

I also put the Morel Ultimo in the same enclosure and it too greatly benefitted. It was more dynamic and provided greater output in the lower frequencies than before. The Morel Ultimo definitely bests the Hsu in terms of clarity, detail and transient response. It is just incredible in these categories. However, with the DLS A6 driving it, it does not have the output in the lower frequencies the Hsu has. The Hsu sub, in combinatin with the DLS A6, reproduces bass notes with greater body, warmth, fullness and depth, thus giving the music a much more solid bass foundation which adds greatly to my enjoyment. We will see what happens when I have my new Celestra DA2K installed tomorrow and the Ultimo now has 1,300 watts available to it. 

To be continued."

10/02/09:

"Today, my new Celestra DA2K amplifier was installed. The difference between it and the DLS A6 can be summed up in one word, astonishing. I plan to write a separate review of the Celestra amp. For purposes of this review, I offer the following: The Celestra amp retails for about 3.5x the price of the DLS, so it's in a different league price wise. Sonically, it is also in another league. The amp's power capabilities are quite impressive. It's rated at 650 Watts into 4 Ohms, 1400 Watts into 2 Ohms and 2100 Watts into 1 Ohm, and it draws massive amounts of current, so you know those numbers are not exaggerated. It grabbed the Hsu ASW-1203 not with an iron fist, but a titanium fist, and controlled the bass like nothing I had heard before. The bass was so tight, and extended so low and with such clarity, that an already great sounding sub sounded even even more impressive. I now had that magical combination of slam, coherency and detail. It was readily apparent that notes played through the DLS amp were blurred in comparison. Transient response was much improved. The Celestra's power capabilities provided great hope for my Morel Ultimo 12 which is quite the power monger. So, in went the Ultimo. I slipped in the Buzzman's Ultimate Bass Demo cd, and after playing a couple of tracks I knew I wouldn't be removing the Ultimo. Everything the Hsu sub did well, it did better. The Celestra amp provided it what it had not been getting with the DLS amp; lots of power and vicelike control of its huge voice coil. The fact that the Morel Ultimo 12 will remain in my system does not change my opinion that the Hsu ASW-1203 is the ultimate SQ/Value package. If I didn't already have the Morel Ultimo 12, I would be fully satisfied with the Hsu ASW-1203 providing the sub bass in my car."


Next Question.


----------



## Mooble

bassfromspace said:


> Admirable test guys.
> 
> Might I suggest you guys make a specific thread concerning the parameters of the test to avoid any future misunderstandings.


It's going to be a huge thread. It will take several days to put it all together, but we will list every shred of info that we have. 

It's not a perfect test by any means, but every sub will face the same criteria. This is a real-world test in one specific car. The RTA screenshots should keep the test "honest."


----------



## audiodepot101

MiniVanMan said:


> And??
> 
> When working with Lockheed Martin on the various optical arrays for the Apache Helicopter's guidance and targeting systems, we were doing some field modifications on the TADS/PNVS (Target Acquisition Designation System/Pilot Night Vision Sensor) where several representatives of different companies were present. This was somewhere around 1998. I remember the final decision was a company called "ThinFilms". The modification was due to the arrays starting to break down and pilots were getting artifacts in their displays.
> 
> I wasn't the only one that thought this, but the "ThinFilms" just looked the best. Less infrared glare and ghosting due to extreme bright spots. For example, while using an artillery strike to cover the advance of a squadron of Apaches, the pilots would spot their targets, but say the artillery hit a truck, and the gasoline ignited. the infrared glare would saturate the HUD, and the pilot would have to spend critical moments in a hover position waiting for the saturation to go away. Critical moments mean death for the pilot, so saturation was one element.
> 
> Ultimately though, the ThinFilms product just looked better. That's what really mattered.


 wow its nice to see someone that actually knows what I am talking about, I know the company Thinfilms very well and they are still in business, in fact they are one of our costumers. The term thin Film is not actually a Company but rather a description of what we do, and actually these things are tested before being sent out in the field, or at lease they should be. But it is nice to see that you understand what it is that I do. 99% of the people do not. But my hats off to you. Yes in 1988 things were a bit fuzzy, a lot of testing and a lot of failures. Its a whole lot better now.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Does the Ultimo come wrapped in thin film?


----------



## bassfromspace

Mooble said:


> It's going to be a huge thread. It will take several days to put it all together, but we will list every shred of info that we have.
> 
> It's not a perfect test by any means, but every sub will face the same criteria. This is a real-world test in one specific car. The RTA screenshots should keep the test "honest."


If I were local (I'm in Dallas), I'd offer a w7 for testing.

What midbass are you using?


----------



## MiniVanMan

fredridge said:


> I heard the morel sub was so fast that it could do 30hz in only 25 cycles


Okay, that made me laugh out loud for real.


----------



## Mooble

bassfromspace said:


> If I were local (I'm in Dallas), I'd offer a w7 for testing.
> 
> What midbass are you using?


Seas W18NX


----------



## audiodepot101

t3sn4f2 said:


> Does the Ultimo come wrapped in thin film?


Enough of the jokes, We have something good going on here, can't we all just get along:beerchug:


----------



## t3sn4f2

audiodepot101 said:


> Enough of the jokes, We have something good going on here, can't we all just get along:beerchug:


ok okayyyy :beerchug:


----------



## Buzzman

MiniVanMan said:


> Buzzman and audiodepot101? How has this review advanced anybody's knowledge of audio? Maybe it's advanced somebody's decision on buying a Morel sub, then it can be argued that this thread should be in "Product Selection" and not "Member Product Reviews". I mean, if you want to go down that route we can.


First, where is it stated that in order to post a “Member Product Review” on this site that the review is supposed to advance the reader’s knowledge of audio?’’ I agree with you that a review should do that, but that is not a prerequisite on this site, and there have been thousands of reviews posted on this forum about which you can make the same assertion. Have you chosen to attack the merits of those reviews also? Would it be nice if a review contained both “objective” and “subjective” testing/remarks like those we used to find in Stereo Review, Car Audio Magazine, etc.? Sure, and some of the more technically inclined members of this forum have posted reviews that fall into this category. But, the vast majority of members don’t do so. It would have been much more productive if someone had said to the OP, or to any of the other Ultimo owners who expressed their opinions, “hey would you be able to send me your sub for a few days so I could test its technical merits as a means of augmenting or validating your subjective findings?” That did not occur, however, and immaturity and disrespect for others' opinions has reigned supreme. 



MiniVanMan said:


> Next, I've found that the people that don't find value in the Klippel results are the ones that don't understand them. So, yeah, I'm gonna call you out. You want to make it an "us vs. them" thing then we can do that as well.


Man, there’s no need to “call me out.” And I am not “making” this debate into anything. I don’t get all heated up about **** like this. In any event, you might be right that some who don’t understand Klippel results, don’t value them. But, the same can be said about anyone who is not well versed in a particular discipline. I am the first to admit that I am not as knowledgeable about matters involving electrical, mechanical or any type of engineering as others. Do I consider information derived from such knowledge of no value, particularly when it pertains to something I enjoy? Absolutely not. I seek out such information and readily consider it in forming the conclusions I make. Again, in my view there were much more positive and effective ways to respond to the OP’s review (and the other subjective opinions rendered here) so that the “objective” side of the equation could have been explored.



MiniVanMan said:


> Let's do that. Let's look at both sides. Side one, desires both objective and subjective data. Objective data is used to support subjective data. Objective data is what requires knowledge and education. It requires an understanding beyond simple marketing terms. It actually requires a fundamental knowledge all the way down to the physics and engineering of the piece of equipment in question. This is true of any medium. People that live and die by subjective reviews are at the mercy of any clown with a keyboard. You never know your source, though they may claim expertise, but when you call them on it they shout "HERETIC" in your face and gather like minded simpleton armies around them.
> 
> This is a societal thing. Remember the geek in high school, the really smart guy that went on to be an engineer, physicist, chemist or something like that? Remember how he was laughed at and picked on? Well that guy went on to build a bridge that your car drives over every day. That guy went on to build a software platform that the cool kids use to jerk off to porn everyday.
> 
> Point being, when these debates come up, it always turns into an "us vs them" scenario where "we" are trying to educate and _teach_ members of this forum how to make _more_ informed decisions, and more informed reviews, and how to differentiate between marketing drivel and actual real world data. Then the armies of the clueless come a runnin' to their platforms of insecurity and denounce us as heretics because we actually understand what's going on.
> 
> This forum was founded on making informed decisions based on both subjective and measured test results. When the forum was founded there weren't all these separate sub forums. The reviews section was for _reviews_, both subjective and objective. Turns out this forum became successful because the objective was also presented so people could weed through the bull **** out there.
> 
> Now the forum has taken several steps backward because the majority here just want to hear what's _best_, and not doing any real thinking on their own. So, yeah, call npdang, myself or any of the others that have outstayed their welcome "heretics". We're going to continue the good fight and hopefully get through to the one in a thousand that actually seem to care. Until then, to make sure you get the best performance from your Ultimo subwoofer, upgrade your fuses to an audiophile quality fuse. I mean, they do come with a glowing review.
> 
> 6moons audio reviews: IsoClean audio-grade fuses


I will resist the urge to psychoanalyze your diatribe. I don’t understand why you would go down this road and leave yourself so exposed. Out of respect for you I will limit my comments to the following: What you fail to realize is that there is a large segment of the population that does not make its purchasing decisions based on scientific or technical reasons. They make their decisions solely on visceral and sensory reactions to the item they desire. And, in the vast majority of cases, nothing you can do will change that. This isn’t a battle between Christian Fundamentalists and the Left Wing, or the Hatfields and the McCoys. Believe in what you believe, and give those on the opposite side a reason to appreciate and respect what you have to say, even if they don’t adopt your point of view.


----------



## audiodepot101

Hey me and t3sn4f2 are having a beer lets all sit down and have one, :beerchug:


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> I thought my last post was going to be my last, but I must respond.
> 
> First, show me one "disparaging" comment or remark I made to anyone on this thread (or anywhere on this site for that matter), and I will publicly apologize. If you can't show me one, you owe me an apology.
> 
> Second, I didn't go to any "great lengths" to depict anyone in any particular light. This is my interpretation of what has transpired in this thread. Obviously, you don't agree with what I wrote. That is your prerogrative. But, often times the truth is painful to hear.
> 
> Finally, I agree that in this thread "some rather condescending and utterly ridiculous statements" have been made. I even made a post addressing that, and one poster was man enough to apologize for his remarks. Props to him. But, it is wrong and unfair of you to claim that the "people are just frustrated due to the same old pattern of dithering/misdirection on the issues, re-posting marketing drivel as fact." Nowhere in the review that started this thread did the OP offer "marketing drivel as fact." He offered his opinions based on his personal listening experience. Others who heard and used the Ultimo did the same; offer their opinions. Others said based on the comments offered they can't wait to hear the sub or purchase it. Then, beginning on page 3 of the post you joined the chatter, and asked what I consider an entirely appropriate question which I address in my last post. Unfortunately, the thread went downhill after that, with all the personal attacks, etc. There were no issues before that. What you refer to as "marketing drivel" was offered by some only in an attempt to answer the question you posed. The facts are what they are.


By disparaging... I should clarify to say that although you didn't directly insult anyone, you have made comments along the lines of high post count members and people who "spout off" not knowing what they're talking about... an abundance of misinformation on this forum... people's posts being labelled as ignorant... 

I'm not trying to slam the OP... or anyone else. 

There are still a lot of questions that have gone unanswered in this thread... one of them being what does "90% efficiency" mean... that has been neatly swept under the rug and ignored in place of more opinions being given along the lines of "you can't hear paper!!" or "who cares!!" or as you pointed out personal attacks... that is what I refer to as dithering or misdirecting the issues.


----------



## Buzzman

npdang said:


> By disparaging... I should clarify to say that although you didn't directly insult anyone, you have made comments along the lines of high post count members and people who "spout off" not knowing what they're talking about... an abundance of misinformation on this forum... people's posts being labelled as ignorant...


Yes, I made those comments, and I stand by them. There is nothing "disparaging" about them. A simple perusal of any number of threads on this forum will prove that my comments are accurate. 



npdang said:


> I'm not trying to slam the OP... or anyone else.


Correct. You have been above the fray in all this. You haven't insulted anyone, called anyone nasty names, etc. You feel strongly about the theories in which you believe and espouse, and you have questioned the validity of someone's views as you are fully entitled to do. I respect that and I know others do as well. Perhaps you can acquire an Ultimo for your own "objective" testing and report your findings, and also opine on the relationship of your findings to your own and others' "subjective" findings. That would be very educational, and can go a long way toward creating a better understanding among all of us of the theories you (and others) advance. It would also allow others to question your theories, and you to defend them. I can't imagine anyone would object to that kind of dialogue. 




npdang said:


> There are still a lot of questions that have gone unanswered in this thread... one of them being what does "90% efficiency" mean... that has been neatly swept under the rug and ignored in place of more opinions being given along the lines of "you can't hear paper!!" or "who cares!!" or as you pointed out personal attacks... that is what I refer to as dithering or misdirecting the issues.


Also true. However, the OP started out by simply writing a review detailing his personal and subjective views. Questions were posed about scientific/techincal matters that neither he nor anyone else who posted comments on the thread are capable of answering. What's wrong with putting the question of "90% efficiency" to Morel and seeing what response is offered? In fact, I will send an email to Morel Israel and publish what I receive back from them.


----------



## DragonSworn

*Re: Power to drive Morel Ultimo 12"*

So Buzz man the DLS A6's 875w couldn't drive the Morel enough to hear full extension down low. It took a full 1300w to show what the driver is capible of. When you look at the responce curves, they look so flat to 12hz without cabin gain. I sure hope the 10s are easier to drive. Subs need so much power now. I use to run 2 Orion XTR3 DVC 12s which I thought of as hard to drive. I have a Xtant 3300c where mono channel is [email protected] It pushed those 12s to 147db with bone stock electrical system. I think I need to find a right amp before I get to attached to a pair of Ultimos.


----------



## BigRed

Buzz, I meant nothing harmful by my question, sorry you took it that way. I did not know about the other factors. carry on guys.


----------



## rommelrommel

I can't see the 10's being significantly easier to drive....


----------



## DragonSworn

I think there is a inverse relationship between sub box size & watts needed to drive the sub. If you're running a Morel 12 in .85cf it takes a huge amount of power. In a larger say 1.3cf can run with less power. This maybe is a common design concept now not just with Morel. I've been reading a ton of stuff since I caught the bug again.


----------



## Buzzman

BigRed said:


> Buzz, I meant nothing harmful by my question, sorry you took it that way. I did not know about the other factors. carry on guys.


Hey Jim, we are cool man, as always. There were a lot of bullets flying in this thread and the question came in the middle of all that. I was surprised by the question because it came from you (one of the smarter and most astute audio guys around, and a super nice guy) and my conclusions were clearly stated in the review. See you at the next meet.


----------



## Buzzman

*Re: Power to drive Morel Ultimo 12"*



DragonSworn said:


> So Buzz man the DLS A6's 875w couldn't drive the Morel enough to hear full extension down low. It took a full 1300w to show what the driver is capible of. When you look at the responce curves, they look so flat to 12hz without cabin gain. I sure hope the 10s are easier to drive. Subs need so much power now. I use to run 2 Orion XTR3 DVC 12s which I thought of as hard to drive. I have a Xtant 3300c where mono channel is [email protected] It pushed those 12s to 147db with bone stock electrical system. I think I need to find a right amp before I get to attached to a pair of Ultimos.


That might have something to do with the DLS's design, I don't know with any certainty. Current delivery, I think, is the key, and RMS power ratings can be deceiving. Case in point, in my system I am using a 50 Watt amp to power my midbasses. The same amp delivered too much current to my midranges, over saturating them when there were dynamic peaks. I now have 200 watts available to my midranges, with no problem.  So, the moral of the story is you won't know until you try a particular amp, but err on the side of more power than not with the Ultimo. The 10's do not present an easier load to drive.


----------



## Buzzman

DragonSworn said:


> I think there is a inverse relationship between sub box size & watts needed to drive the sub. If you're running a Morel 12 in .85cf it takes a huge amount of power. In a larger say 1.3cf can run with less power. This maybe is a common design concept now not just with Morel. I've been reading a ton of stuff since I caught the bug again.


My experience leads me to conclude that to get the optimal SQ performance from the Ultimo you need to use the largest possible enclosure. Morel has a recommendation of 2.1 cubic feet, which I think might be spot on. 

In this regard, I have hit solid gold with my latest experiment concerning the Ultimo. It's called an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure.  I will expound on this more in the coming days, but I just cannot believe what I am hearing. This application has taken the Ultimo's performance a few more levels beyond where it was, which is really saying something. Given the rancor that has permeated this thread previously, let me state perfectly clear that this is based on MY subjective analysis in MY car, using the same set-up I have been using for all MY comparisons.


----------



## Niebur3

Buzzman said:


> My experience leads me to conclude that to get the optimal SQ performance from the Ultimo you need to use the largest possible enclosure. Morel has a recommendation of 2.1 cubic feet, which I think might be spot on.
> 
> In this regard, I have hit solid gold with my latest experiment concerning the Ultimo. It's called an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure.  I will expound on this more in the coming days, but I just cannot believe what I am hearing. This application has taken the Ultimo's performance a few more levels beyond where it was, which is really saying something. Given the rancor that has permeated this thread previously, let me state perfectly clear that this is based on MY subjective analysis in MY car, using the same set-up I have been using for all MY comparisons.


The AP enclosure....a lost art. Something that seems complicated, but is not so much and can produce tremendous sq....good choice!

Oh, I forgot:
***due to the nature of this thread, all claims made by me are from my past experience only....I will not be held liable for any claims I make as they are my own opinion of past experiences with nothing but those experiences to back them up. You may or may not hear or agree with any claims about sq that I make as my brain and ears may interpret something different and my point of reference may be different.***


----------



## Buzzman

Niebur3 said:


> The AP enclosure....a lost art. Something that seems complicated, but is not so much and can produce tremendous sq....good choice!
> 
> Oh, I forgot:
> ***due to the nature of this thread, all claims made by me are from my past experience only....I will not be held liable for any claims I make as they are my own opinion of past experiences with nothing but those experiences to back them up. You may or may not hear or agree with any claims about sq that I make as my brain and ears may interpret something different and my point of reference may be different.***


:laugh: I love the disclaimer!


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Buzzman said:


> My experience leads me to conclude that to get the optimal SQ performance from the Ultimo you need to use the largest possible enclosure. Morel has a recommendation of 2.1 cubic feet, which I think might be spot on.
> 
> In this regard, I have hit solid gold with my latest experiment concerning the Ultimo. It's called an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure.  I will expound on this more in the coming days, but I just cannot believe what I am hearing. This application has taken the Ultimo's performance a few more levels beyond where it was, which is really saying something. Given the rancor that has permeated this thread previously, let me state perfectly clear that this is based on MY subjective analysis in MY car, using the same set-up I have been using for all MY comparisons.



Steve Head aka Audionutz will love you. He's the AP Jedi Master.




Niebur3 said:


> T
> Oh, I forgot:
> ***due to the nature of this thread, all claims made by me are from my past experience only....I will not be held liable for any claims I make as they are my own opinion of past experiences with nothing but those experiences to back them up. You may or may not hear or agree with any claims about sq that I make as my brain and ears may interpret something different and my point of reference may be different.***


Nice.:thumbsup:


----------



## bassfromspace

I wonder if that 2 cube box is helping to smooth the response of the sub, Buzzman.


----------



## DragonSworn

Hey Buzzman do you think your Celestra could drive 2-2ohm Ultimos? What kind of spl can you get with 1 12" 2ohm when driven to safe levels? I’m anxiously awaiting Moobie shootout results before I decide how many & which size to start with. Yeah just a few more weeks...


----------



## Buzzman

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> Steve Head aka Audionutz will love you. He's the AP Jedi Master.


Mark, so funny you say that because Steve turned me on to this application a while back.  His AP "cookbook" is must reading. For those interested, here is a link: AP Enclosures-The Aperiodic Cookbook | Tutorials | Team Audionutz

The Ultimo has ideal parameters for this type of application. The results in my car have been incredible, and I will get into this more in a few days.


----------



## Mooble

I prefer the Ultimo in a larger enclosure, but it doesn't sound bad in the OP's 1.25' enclosure either. Maybe during our showdown we can test it in both the 1.25' enclosure and in a full 2 cubes.


----------



## Buzzman

bassfromspace said:


> I wonder if that 2 cube box is helping to smooth the response of the sub, Buzzman.


The conclusion I am drawing is that the larger enclosure is more over damped, resulting in a lower Qtc than that provided by smaller enclosures. What you will hear is lower extension, and "cleaner" bass with better transient response. In car, the response curve should be flatter also. I haven't had a chance to make measurements, but my ears are telling me this clearly is the case. Hearing bass reproduced with such clarity and realism is a revelation, and for some it might take getting used to after having heard "fat" bass for so long.


----------



## Buzzman

DragonSworn said:


> Hey Buzzman do you think your Celestra could drive 2-2ohm Ultimos? What kind of spl can you get with 1 12" 2ohm when driven to safe levels? I’m anxiously awaiting Moobie shootout results before I decide how many & which size to start with. Yeah just a few more weeks...


I am sure the Celestra amp could handle that (it's rated at 2,100 Watts into 1Ohm), but I wouldn't want the added stress (current draw, etc.) on my system. Now, the ideal setup would be 2 Morel 4 Ohm Ultimos and 2 of my Celestra amps, daisy chained - 4,200 Watts into 2 Ohms.  

As far as spl with 1 12" 2 Ohm Ultimo, I can't answer that except to say that I am VERY happy with the results I have achieved based on my listening preferences. This is all determined by what you like and what you want to achieve.


----------



## Buzzman

Mooble said:


> I prefer the Ultimo in a larger enclosure, but it doesn't sound bad in the OP's 1.25' enclosure either. Maybe during our showdown we can test it in both the 1.25' enclosure and in a full 2 cubes.


If you can test it in a 2 cubic foot enclosure, I encourage you to do so.


----------



## bassfromspace

Buzzman said:


> The conclusion I am drawing is that the larger enclosure is more over damped, resulting in a lower Qtc than that provided by smaller enclosures. What you will hear is lower extension, and "cleaner" bass with better transient response. In car, the response curve should be flatter also. I haven't had a chance to make measurements, but my ears are telling me this clearly is the case. Hearing bass reproduced with such clarity and realism is a revelation, and for some it might take getting used to after having heard "fat" bass for so long.


Things are starting to make sense now .


----------



## AWC

My Ultimo 12 is powered by an Arc Audio 150 dr (800w/RMS @ 4) in a 2.2 cubic foot fiberglass enclosure with a 19 inch 4" port. The enclosure is in the place of the hatchback lid on my celica. It looks great and sounds better. I'd not trade it

I love it


----------



## t3sn4f2

Niebur3 said:


> The AP enclosure....a lost art. Something that seems complicated, but is not so much and can produce tremendous sq....good choice!
> 
> Oh, I forgot:
> ****due to the nature of this thread, all claims made by me are from my past experience only....I will not be held liable for any claims I make as they are my own opinion of past experiences with nothing but those experiences to back them up. You may or may not hear or agree with any claims about sq that I make as my brain and ears may interpret something different and my point of reference may be different.***[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That should be a default non removable signature for EVERY user!


----------



## npdang

With all due respect to Steve, who is a great guy, and whose cd's are badass... there are some inaccuracies in his AP cookbook and I don't believe he's revised it since the many years since he wrote it.

An AP membrane is just a device to make a smaller box "work" like a bigger one. That's all anyone really needs to know from a practical standpoint. As Steve points out you can also achieve the same effect with electronic correction if it's too much hassle to implement (which it typically can be in a car). 

Also, Imo overdampened enclosures sound much sloppier in a car than slightly underdampened ones; there's so much low end gain in most vehicles that higher system Q's with less low end sensitivity tend to sound "tighter" even though they are slightly peaky and underdampened... not to mention the response of an overdampened system tends to be a lil droopy... losing impact in the upper frequencies.


----------



## npdang

t3sn4f2 said:


> Niebur3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AP enclosure....a lost art. Something that seems complicated, but is not so much and can produce tremendous sq....good choice!
> 
> Oh, I forgot:
> ****due to the nature of this thread, all claims made by me are from my past experience only....I will not be held liable for any claims I make as they are my own opinion of past experiences with nothing but those experiences to back them up. You may or may not hear or agree with any claims about sq that I make as my brain and ears may interpret something different and my point of reference may be different.***[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That should be a default non removable signature for EVERY user!
> 
> 
> 
> Ah if only I was a high end audio dealer  The only reason those guys can charge what they do.
Click to expand...


----------



## fish

npdang said:


> With all due respect to Steve, who is a great guy, and whose cd's are badass... there are some inaccuracies in his AP cookbook and I don't believe he's revised it since the many years since he wrote it.
> 
> An AP membrane is just a device to make a smaller box "work" like a bigger one. That's all anyone really needs to know from a practical standpoint. As Steve points out you can also achieve the same effect with electronic correction if it's too much hassle to implement (which it typically can be in a car).
> 
> Also, Imo overdampened enclosures sound much sloppier in a car than slightly underdampened ones; there's so much low end gain in most vehicles that higher system Q's with less low end sensitivity tend to sound "tighter" even though they are slightly peaky and underdampened... not to mention the response of an overdampened system tends to be a lil droopy... losing impact in the upper frequencies.



Regarding AP enclosures, which is the correct way to go about enclosure volume? Make it only large enough to house the speaker, or maybe try to get a small percentage of recommended volume inside the box?

Or does this not matter either way?


----------



## Buzzman

fish said:


> Regarding AP enclosures, which is the correct way to go about enclosure volume? Make it only large enough to house the speaker, or maybe try to get a small percentage of recommended volume inside the box?
> 
> Or does this not matter either way?


Make it only large enough to house the speaker and the AP Mat.


----------



## mark1478

do you think 500 watts to an ultimo 10" in a .80 sealed box will make that thing move?


----------



## t3sn4f2

mark1478 said:


> do you think 500 watts to an ultimo 10" in a .80 sealed box will make that thing move?


_That_ question can not be answered.


----------



## Mooble

Why such a small box? If you can only do .8, you might look for a different subwoofer. I don't think the Ultimo would be very happy in that size enclosure and it would like more power ideally.


----------



## mark1478

Mooble said:


> Why such a small box? If you can only do .8, you might look for a different subwoofer. I don't think the Ultimo would be very happy in that size enclosure and it would like more power ideally.


its a custom fiberglass enclosure that sits on the side of my trunk. Cost a pretty penny and takes up zero space in my trunk so i want to keep it. Im talking about a 10 inch woofer. You think an ultimo 10 would want more space?


----------



## audiodepot101

npdang Had me thinking, which I already do a lot of. Any way I was researching what could be causing the sound that we hear from the Ultimo that I do not hear from other drivers, I came across other things that I am still trying to figure out how to test them. but this was real interesting.I am not sure how much of this applies to us, but it can be some what useful.

Mmd: Mass or weight of the speaker cone assembly.

This is how heavy the cone, coil and other moving parts are. An 18” driver with a Mmd of around 100 grams will have a light cone and will usually be more efficient than a driver with a heavy cone. A light cone can also move quicker. Light cones are usually found in higher Qts value drivers, but not always. This would appear to give them the advantage of having a quicker transient response as the cone is light, but the weak motors found in higher Qts drivers offsets any advantages of having a lighter cone. Drivers with Mmd’s of over 200 grams will have heavy stiff cones. They will usually be less efficient, have double spiders and have lower Qts values. Drivers with heavy cones should have a slower sound, but not if they also have a low Qts and high BL. The strength of the motor system is able to counteract the high cone weight and still give a fast transient response. Do not confuse Mmd with Mms. Mms is the total cone assembly mass including radiation mass. Some loudspeaker design programs will want you to enter the Mmd and will calculate the Mms for you, while others will want the Mms and will calculate the Mmd for you. 

Speakerplans.com


----------



## Mooble

The strange thing is that the sub we found in our test that sounds the most like the Ultimo is absolutely nothing like it in construction. It has massive excursion, dual spiders, etc. It looks like an SPL sub all the way, but it sounds very accurate and very similar to the Ultimo in fact. More to come...


----------



## audiodepot101

Mooble said:


> The strange thing is that the sub we found in our test that sounds the most like the Ultimo is absolutely nothing like it in construction. It has massive excursion, dual spiders, etc. It looks like an SPL sub all the way, but it sounds very accurate and very similar to the Ultimo in fact. More to come...


There is an exception as it states: could this be it? Is there a way that you can compare motor strength?

The strength of the motor system is able to counteract the high cone weight and still give a fast transient response.


----------



## Mooble

Well, we tested another sub with both a stronger motor and lighter cone then the Ultimo, but it still didn't sound like it.


----------



## npdang

Mooble said:


> Well, we tested another sub with both a stronger motor and lighter cone then the Ultimo, but it still didn't sound like it.


Spectral balance perhaps? 

Doesn't a 100hz tone sound "faster" than a 20hz tone? A driver that emphasizes "faster" tones would sound faster shouldn't it?

I would be curious... if you changed the lowpass frequency when testing the same driver... does moving the lowpass point from say 100hz, to 40hz, make the sub sound slower?


----------



## audiodepot101

npdang Question, What would the advantage be by having the magnet inside the voice coil rather then like most drivers having them on the outside?


----------



## Buzzman

mark1478 said:


> its a custom fiberglass enclosure that sits on the side of my trunk. Cost a pretty penny and takes up zero space in my trunk so i want to keep it. Im talking about a 10 inch woofer. You think an ultimo 10 would want more space?


Mark, the answer to your question depends on your listening preferences. Based on what I know about the sub, and my experiences to date, the Ultimo 10 will "work" in the enclosure your describe. However, you will not have the output in the lower frequencies that a larger enclosure will provide, and the bass won't be as tight and defined. But, that may be to your liking, plus you keep the enclosure you already spent big $ on. Also, the smaller enclosure will require more power from your amplifier. My listening preferences would dictate an enclosure in the neighborhood of 1.6 cubic feet. But, given your circumstances, I would put fiberglass in the enclosure (which will help the sub perform as though it's in a slightly larger enclosure), put the Ultimo in, and give it a listen.


----------



## Buzzman

Hopefully, this does not create another firestorm on this thread (which I hope does not ensue), but I contacted Morel Israel as I said I would and posed three questions, two of which were posed here on this thread and led to much of the heated debate. The answer to the third is relevant to the overall issues addressed by the other two: Here are the questions and answers:

"1. What design features of the Ultimo would you point to as the contributing factors to the sound I say I hear?
The huge 5.1" voice coil which supports the cone on a centralized parameter, the one piece cone/dust cap, the fluent chassis, the progressive spider
etc....

2. What does Morel mean when it says " The new DMM™ motor design achieves over 90% efficiency"?

It means that we manage to concentrate and use a very high percentage of the magnet system power for sheer functionality.
This sensitivity is affected by constructional design and materials quality.

3. What is "DMM" an acronym for? Double Magnet Motor - the construction method used for the magnet system, in which 2 magnet pieces are used for magnetic flux enhancement in the gap. This is crucial since we are using huge external voice coils, who need ample magnet power in order to be able to move the coil/cone assembly."

Hi Ziv, Thank you so much for your reply. Do you have any objection to my sharing your answers with other Ultimo users who have asked me similar questions?

"Not at all, only keep in mind that these were partial answers, there is more lengthy information on our web site:
http://www.morelhifi.com/support/pdf/mobile/Ultimo Manual.pdf
All the best
Ziv"

I am awaiting an answer to the following question which relates to the 90% efficiency claim: "Can you elaborate on what you mean by "sheer functionality."? Do you mean that a higher percentage of the magnet system power is able to be used to move the voice coil and cone? A more detailed explanation would be greatly appreciated." 

It is unlikely that the above responses will satisfy all the inquirers, but at least we have something from the mouth of the manufacturer.


----------



## audiodepot101

I have been thinking also on the 90% efficiency claim, looking at the motor structure we know that heat is the number one cause of robbing efficiency, weather its in a race car motor, or you working out at the gym. heat robs all things. now by having a voice coil on the outside and not enclosed does it stay cooler? If you have driven subs to their limit that voice coil can start to heat up.Even so 90% is high, if thats the 90% that they are speaking of?


----------



## npdang

audiodepot101 said:


> npdang Question, What would the advantage be by having the magnet inside the voice coil rather then like most drivers having them on the outside?


Perhaps a more compact motor? Rather than packing more magnet width on the outside of the motor, they chose to place it on the inside of the pole saving space.


----------



## subwoofery

90% efficiency but still need gobs of power to make it move... Don't really understand :surprised: 

Kelvin


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> Hopefully, this does not create another firestorm on this thread (which I hope does not ensue), but I contacted Morel Israel as I said I would and posed three questions, two of which were posed here on this thread and led to much of the heated debate. The answer to the third is relevant to the overall issues addressed by the other two: Here are the questions and answers:
> 
> "1. What design features of the Ultimo would you point to as the contributing factors to the sound I say I hear?
> The huge 5.1" voice coil which supports the cone on a centralized parameter, the one piece cone/dust cap, the fluent chassis, the progressive spider
> etc....
> 
> 2. What does Morel mean when it says " The new DMM™ motor design achieves over 90% efficiency"?
> 
> It means that we manage to concentrate and use a very high percentage of the magnet system power for sheer functionality.
> This sensitivity is affected by constructional design and materials quality.
> 
> 3. What is "DMM" an acronym for? Double Magnet Motor - the construction method used for the magnet system, in which 2 magnet pieces are used for magnetic flux enhancement in the gap. This is crucial since we are using huge external voice coils, who need ample magnet power in order to be able to move the coil/cone assembly."
> 
> Hi Ziv, Thank you so much for your reply. Do you have any objection to my sharing your answers with other Ultimo users who have asked me similar questions?
> 
> "Not at all, only keep in mind that these were partial answers, there is more lengthy information on our web site:
> http://www.morelhifi.com/support/pdf/mobile/Ultimo Manual.pdf
> All the best
> Ziv"
> 
> I am awaiting an answer to the following question which relates to the 90% efficiency claim: "Can you elaborate on what you mean by "sheer functionality."? Do you mean that a higher percentage of the magnet system power is able to be used to move the voice coil and cone? A more detailed explanation would be greatly appreciated."
> 
> It is unlikely that the above responses will satisfy all the inquirers, but at least we have something from the mouth of the manufacturer.


Appreciate you going to the efforts to find out. Certainly, it is not the driver's efficiency which can be calculated to about 0.5%.

Could it possibly be how much of the coil sits within the magnetic gap, as their answer seems to imply? If so, I don't think that has anything to do with putting magnets in the pole. Nothing I can think of makes any sense.


----------



## Eric Stevens

I think they are trying to say there is very little stray flux with the motor design. This is true of center magnet external return type motors which is why they can be placed very close to CRT monitors.

Also the the magnet on top of the top plate helps reduce the stray flux and increase the Bg or flux strength in the gap by forcing the flux to flow through the gap rather than around it. his is where the DMM comes from 1 magnet in the circuit of the motor other on top like a bucking magnet to reduce stray flux and increase Bg.

Eric


----------



## Oliver

I like the low .27MH on the 2 ohm version of the Ultimo SC 12 

Personally , I think efficiency is enclosure dependant from my trials.

It appears to go downhill with smaller sealed boxes.


----------



## npdang

Eric Stevens said:


> I think they are trying to say there is very little stray flux with the motor design. This is true of center magnet external return type motors which is why they can be placed very close to CRT monitors.
> 
> Also the the magnet on top of the top plate helps reduce the stray flux and increase the Bg or flux strength in the gap by forcing the flux to flow through the gap rather than around it. his is where the DMM comes from 1 magnet in the circuit of the motor other on top like a bucking magnet to reduce stray flux and increase Bg.
> 
> Eric


Hey Eric, that makes perfect sense! Thank you.

The only other thing I can think of is that sometimes in an overhung design you might want a bit of a fringe field to give you a more extended bl plateau instead of one that drops off so quickly.


----------



## Buzzman

Eric Stevens said:


> I think they are trying to say there is very little stray flux with the motor design. This is true of center magnet external return type motors which is why they can be placed very close to CRT monitors.
> 
> Also the the magnet on top of the top plate helps reduce the stray flux and increase the Bg or flux strength in the gap by forcing the flux to flow through the gap rather than around it. his is where the DMM comes from 1 magnet in the circuit of the motor other on top like a bucking magnet to reduce stray flux and increase Bg.
> 
> Eric


I forwarded Eric's explanation to my contact at Morel, and this was his reply:

Hi Don,

The quoted explanation is accurate, I have nothing to add 

Ziv

So, now that the technical gurus are on the same page as to nature of and the results of the motor design and structure, are they also in agreement that it contributes to the sound the listeners have described in this thread?


----------



## t3sn4f2

Buzzman said:


> I forwarded Eric's explanation to my contact at Morel, and this was his reply:
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> The quoted explanation is accurate, I have nothing to add
> 
> Ziv
> 
> So, now that the technical gurus are on the same page as to nature of and the results of the motor design and structure, are they also in agreement that it contributes to the sound the listeners have described in this thread?


Why would it? All that indicates is that the driver uses the magnet more efficiently. Only benefit to that is you need less of it no?


----------



## npdang

t3sn4f2 said:


> Why would it? All that indicates is that the driver uses the magnet more efficiently. Only benefit to that is you need less of it no?


It does make for a more compact motor, however there are also tradeoffs... if you have less flux outside the gap, what do you think happens when the coil begins to leave the gap?


----------



## npdang

Buzzman said:


> I forwarded Eric's explanation to my contact at Morel, and this was his reply:
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> The quoted explanation is accurate, I have nothing to add
> 
> Ziv
> 
> So, now that the technical gurus are on the same page as to nature of and the results of the motor design and structure, are they also in agreement that it contributes to the sound the listeners have described in this thread?


I'm still of the opinion that it's the spectral balance of the sub that is mostly responsible for the way it sounds.


----------



## MiniVanMan

npdang said:


> It does make for a more compact motor, however there are also tradeoffs... if you have less flux outside the gap, what do you think happens when the coil begins to leave the gap?


Clunk, clunk, tink, tink, sphlap, sphlap,


----------



## lucas569

wheres that sub showdown?


----------



## Mooble

lucas569 said:


> wheres that sub showdown?


We are compiling the results of round two. What we ended up with were about 6 subs that all sound good. We will need to devise a more accurate testing strategy for the final round. It will also be blind. I'll be curious to see if we can even tell some of these subs apart.


----------



## Mooble

FYI, I saw an Ultimo SC in a store today, picked it up in fact. They look like fantastic subs and 1/2 the price of the Ultimo. The owner said he tried one out and it worked as well as his regular Ultimo. I would imagine the internet price on these will be about $300. That should remove the price argument which seems to be a stumbling block for so many of the naysayers. They are still made in Israel too, not farmed out to Asia. I would say the SC is going to be the new SQ sub to beat.


----------



## invinsible

Where on net can one find the Ultimo SC ?


----------



## Mooble

I don't think you can yet. They are just starting to hit the B&M stores. It will be a couple more months before they show up on the internet.


----------



## lucas569

Mooble said:


> FYI, I saw an Ultimo SC in a store today, picked it up in fact. They look like fantastic subs and 1/2 the price of the Ultimo. The owner said he tried one out and it worked as well as his regular Ultimo. I would imagine the internet price on these will be about $300. That should remove the price argument which seems to be a stumbling block for so many of the naysayers. They are still made in Israel too, not farmed out to Asia. I would say the SC is going to be the new SQ sub to beat.


have you tested it yet?


----------



## 02753102

in searching the internet i found a great review of the ultimo SC posted here

trinituner.com :: View topic - Morel SC Subwoofer 10" Review with pics


----------



## Mooble

lucas569 said:


> have you tested it yet?


Oh, I should have worded it better. I didn't buy it, just picked it up and handled it. I was very impressed considering it retails for 1/2 the standard Ultimo. If you don't already have an Ultimo, I would get this one over the standard one.


----------



## Buzzman

As I noted in earlier posts on this thread, I have concluded that for my listening preferences, the Ultimo 12 performs best in a very large enclosure (i.e., 1.5 cubic feet or larger). I did some modeling and concluded that based on my preferences the Ultimo would be ideally placed in an approximately 2.1 cubic foot enclosure, which would yield a Qtc in the neighborhood of .6, and offer the “fast,” articulate and detailed bass I prefer, while extending really deep. It turns out that this is also one of the enclosure sizes recommended by Morel. Knowing that I didn’t want to have a 2.1 cubic foot enclosure occupying my valuable trunk space, and also thinking that the Ultimo 12 had ideal parameters for an Aperiodic set-up (Qts of .36, combined with a high Vas and low Fs), I decided to explore using an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure. Such an application would allow me to use a very small enclosure while experiencing the sonic benefits of a much larger one. Not having the time or the equipment to build and tune my own AP Mat, I sought out the services of Speaker Works located in Orange County here in California. They have long extolled the virtues of AP subwoofer applications (going back to the storied Buick Grand National champion car), and build AP mats to order. I contacted Eric Holdaway, who confirmed my conclusions about the Ultimo, sent him the Ultimo’s T/S parameters, and they proceeded to build an AP mat for me. See photo attached. I then had an enclosure built to house the Ultimo and the AP mat (photos attached). The enclosure ended up being about .55 cubic feet net. The key to executing an AP set-up is isolating the front wave from the rear wave. My car had already been set-up for an infinite baffle application with the woofer firing up through the rear deck which had been rebuilt with a 1 inch MDF baffle replacing the factory offering, damped with Cascade V-Max and Dynamat Extreme, and attached to the metal deck. Also, the trunk was completely sealed off from the car’s cabin by my amp rack mounted behind the gas tank. So, now all I had to do was attach the new enclosure to the rear deck, double check that the trunk was sealed off as best as possible, and listen. 

Well, the results, to my ear, are stupendous. The thing that struck me most immediately was that the already tight and detailed bass from the Ultimo was even tighter and more defined, with even less “overhang” when a note was struck. Low level details in the music mix became even more discernible. To me, there was clearly improved transient response. These conclusions were most evident on my bass torture tracks: Phillipe Saisse Trio “If I Ever Lose This Heaven,” Frederic Alarie “George,” Blind Boys of Alabama “Amazing Grace,” Mary Stallings “Centerpiece,” Steely Dan “Morph The Cat,” Lauryn Hill “Doo *** (That Thing),“ and Bela Fleck & The Flecktones “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo.” Not only is the bass on these tracks DEEP, but it is prominent in the mix, and closely miked in some instances. These tracks will highlight resonance problems in your car, for sure, and disclose distortion where you previously thought there was none. Playing these tracks with the Ultimo now comfortably ensconced in the AP Sealed Enclosure was a real revelation. The clarity and detail was, simply put, astounding. I heard notes replayed with a sense of “oneness” or singularity that I had not heard before. The notes struck on the upright or electric bass simply started and stopped without “overhang”, making the instrument more clearly “visible” and focused in the soundstage. This also had the result of making background vocals and recording venue noises more discernible than before. It was quite eerie, actually. The in-car bass response sounded, to me, more flat also. I will make appropriate measurements once I have the opportunity to see if the equipment confirms what I hear. There is still some fine tuning to do, and I might try to reduce the size of the enclosure even further by trimming down the AP Mat (but I don't know if the small additional space I gain will be worth the trouble). But I think it’s fair to say that my journey for the best sounding bass I could get in my car has ended for now.  And, my golf clubs now fit in my trunk!


----------



## snaimpally

02753102 said:


> in searching the internet i found a great review of the ultimo SC posted here
> 
> trinituner.com :: View topic - Morel SC Subwoofer 10" Review with pics


"At times i needed to check if the sub was still playing. This sub lived up to its company name leaving me very impressed with its sq. The sub is very transparent and very quick while still handling the low notes with authority."

Its amazing how consistent all the reviewers are ...


----------



## snaimpally

Eric Stevens said:


> I think they are trying to say there is very little stray flux with the motor design. This is true of center magnet external return type motors which is why they can be placed very close to CRT monitors.
> 
> Also the the magnet on top of the top plate helps reduce the stray flux and increase the Bg or flux strength in the gap by forcing the flux to flow through the gap rather than around it. his is where the DMM comes from 1 magnet in the circuit of the motor other on top like a bucking magnet to reduce stray flux and increase Bg.
> 
> Eric


Eric, you took the words right out of my mouth.  Actually, thanks for pitching in because I had no answer and frankly, I though that type of discussion was reserved for the Klippel reviews.

In our subwoofer shootout, the Diyma R12 acquitted itself quite well, and much better than I remember it.


----------



## subwoofery

Buzzman said:


> As I noted in earlier posts on this thread, I have concluded that for my listening preferences, the Ultimo 12 performs best in a very large enclosure (i.e., 1.5 cubic feet or larger). I did some modeling and concluded that based on my preferences the Ultimo would be ideally placed in an approximately 2.1 cubic foot enclosure, which would yield a Qtc in the neighborhood of .6, and offer the “fast,” articulate and detailed bass I prefer, while extending really deep. It turns out that this is also one of the enclosure sizes recommended by Morel. Knowing that I didn’t want to have a 2.1 cubic foot enclosure occupying my valuable trunk space, and also thinking that the Ultimo 12 had ideal parameters for an Aperiodic set-up (Qts of .36, combined with a high Vas and low Fs), I decided to explore using an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure. Such an application would allow me to use a very small enclosure while experiencing the sonic benefits of a much larger one. Not having the time or the equipment to build and tune my own AP Mat, I sought out the services of Speaker Works located in Orange County here in California. They have long extolled the virtues of AP subwoofer applications (going back to the storied Buick Grand National champion car), and build AP mats to order. I contacted Eric Holdaway, who confirmed my conclusions about the Ultimo, sent him the Ultimo’s T/S parameters, and they proceeded to build an AP mat for me. See photo attached. I then had an enclosure built to house the Ultimo and the AP mat (photos attached). The enclosure ended up being about .55 cubic feet net. The key to executing an AP set-up is isolating the front wave from the rear wave. My car had already been set-up for an infinite baffle application with the woofer firing up through the rear deck which had been rebuilt with a 1 inch MDF baffle replacing the factory offering, damped with Cascade V-Max and Dynamat Extreme, and attached to the metal deck. Also, the trunk was completely sealed off from the car’s cabin by my amp rack mounted behind the gas tank. So, now all I had to do was attach the new enclosure to the rear deck, double check that the trunk was sealed off as best as possible, and listen.
> 
> Well, the results, to my ear, are stupendous. The thing that struck me most immediately was that the already tight and detailed bass from the Ultimo was even tighter and more defined, with even less “overhang” when a note was struck. Low level details in the music mix became even more discernible. To me, there was clearly improved transient response. These conclusions were most evident on my bass torture tracks: Phillipe Saisse Trio “If I Ever Lose This Heaven,” Frederic Alarie “George,” Blind Boys of Alabama “Amazing Grace,” Mary Stallings “Centerpiece,” Steely Dan “Morph The Cat,” Lauryn Hill “Doo *** (That Thing),“ and Bela Fleck & The Flecktones “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo.” Not only is the bass on these tracks DEEP, but it is prominent in the mix, and closely miked in some instances. These tracks will highlight resonance problems in your car, for sure, and disclose distortion where you previously thought there was none. Playing these tracks with the Ultimo now comfortably ensconced in the AP Sealed Enclosure was a real revelation. The clarity and detail was, simply put, astounding. I heard notes replayed with a sense of “oneness” or singularity that I had not heard before. The notes struck on the upright or electric bass simply started and stopped without “overhang”, making the instrument more clearly “visible” and focused in the soundstage. This also had the result of making background vocals and recording venue noises more discernible than before. It was quite eerie, actually. The in-car bass response sounded, to me, more flat also. I will make appropriate measurements once I have the opportunity to see if the equipment confirms what I hear. There is still some fine tuning to do, and I might try to reduce the size of the enclosure even further by trimming down the AP Mat (but I don't know if the small additional space I gain will be worth the trouble). But I think it’s fair to say that my journey for the best sounding bass I could get in my car has ended for now.  And, my golf clubs now fit in my trunk!


Was interested in what you've done and would like to understand this concept a bit more. 

Can you please tell us what kind of parameters should we look for to be AP ready? 
Did you line the walls with any kind of damping material? 
Is it safe to assume that the vent you ordered is similar than the ScanSpeak flow resistance vent, except yours is more suited to the Ultimo. Seems like there might be some difference since an AP vent needs the front wave separated from the rear wave - with the flow resistance vent it is not necessary... 


Thank you 
Kelvin


----------



## lucas569

a$$hole said:


> I like the low .27MH on the 2 ohm version of the Ultimo SC 12
> 
> Personally , I think efficiency is enclosure dependant from my trials.
> 
> It appears to go downhill with smaller sealed boxes.


i plan on buying the 2ohm version can you expound a little more on why .27mh is good?


----------



## subwoofery

lucas569 said:


> i plan on buying the 2ohm version can you expound a little more on why .27mh is good?


http://stereointegrity.com/docs/WooferSpeed.pdf 

Kelvin


----------



## matdotcom2000

I am thinking of getting two of these in a 10 inch SC version. What is the SPL like on these, do they get loud at all or do they stay transparent the whole time.


----------



## t3sn4f2

matdotcom2000 said:


> I am thinking of getting two of these in a 10 inch SC version. What is the SPL like on these, do they get loud at all or do they stay transparent the whole time.


Transparently loud. You won't know if the rumble in your pants is from the sub or the Taco Bell you had for dinner.


----------



## matdotcom2000

lol, well maybe its not the sub for me. I am looking for 2 subs to replace my 1 idmax10. I want it to be louder, deeper and around 5.5 inches deep. I thought this could be it


----------



## t3sn4f2

matdotcom2000 said:


> lol, well maybe its not the sub for me. I am looking for 2 subs to replace my 1 idmax10. I want it to be louder, deeper and around 5.5 inches deep. I thought this could be it


Naw, I was just messing around, I don't know. I can't say how it's going to sound in your car and to you ear's expectations.


----------



## matdotcom2000

How wound you compare the sub to the IDMAX's or JL w6 which all I have ever owned and love but I need to get rid of now to make some room for the new kid. I just dont wanna go backwards as far as output. thats all.


----------



## snaimpally

matdotcom2000 said:


> I am thinking of getting two of these in a 10 inch SC version. What is the SPL like on these, *do they get loud at all or do they stay transparent the whole time*.


I have had the Ultimo 12 up 6 db over the setting set by the HU after auto eq and hu and it gets plenty loud but still remains transparent. Why don't you PM an earlier poster - he got 2 Ultimo 12s and decided he didn't need 2 after hearing one.


----------



## snaimpally

mariodada said:


> Thanks for the review. I just got my ultimo 12 hooked up it is in a 1.5 sealed enclosure,I have a Hifonics zeds vl bridged and I could not be happier.This sub is amazing and it is much more efficient than I thought it would be,I had to turn down the bass on my dql8 I was thinking I was going to need more power,I was ready to buy the new Zed Kronos,*I even bought 2 ultimos* because I've been running 2 boston 12.5 Les,*but one ultimo is plenty *the other is just sitting in the closet,if anyone needs one let me know.


PM this guy. He sold his second one off on ebay.


----------



## snaimpally

lucas569 said:


> wheres that sub showdown?


I have posted the 12" subwoofer showdown on the forum.


----------



## snaimpally

matdotcom2000 said:


> lol, well maybe its not the sub for me. I am looking for 2 subs to replace my 1 idmax10. I want it to be louder, deeper and around 5.5 inches deep. I thought this could be it


The Ultimo 12" is 5.5" deep. Based on your requirements I suggest you get a DD or Audioque sub.


----------



## matdotcom2000

After looking at the subs you mentioned they either are too deep or the box application is too big.  uggg I really think that I want to try these subs over either the JL 13tw5's and the SI BM. Thinking about taking the leap But I am just a little weary of what I would be loosing.


----------



## snaimpally

matdotcom2000 said:


> After looking at the subs you mentioned they either are too deep or the box application is too big.  uggg I really think that I want to try these subs over either the JL 13tw5's and the SI BM. Thinking about taking the leap But I am just a little weary of what I would be loosing.


One sub I think you would like is the Boston Acoustics G5. It is an SQ sub but if you bump the volume it can get loud and rattle your car if you want to show off to your buddies. I have had the G5-12-44 in my car this past week and have really enjoyed it. If you can't fit the 12, look at the 10.


----------



## nautilus

Never been happier, damn good sub and very good control.


----------



## Diaudio

AWC said:


> My Ultimo 12 is powered by an Arc Audio 150 dr (800w/RMS @ 4) in a 2.2 cubic foot fiberglass enclosure with a 19 inch 4" port. The enclosure is in the place of the hatchback lid on my celica. It looks great and sounds better. I'd not trade it
> 
> I love it


I just a one pcs of Ultimo 12 too.. i have space for 2 cubic foot enclosure. What is freq the box is tuned? i got 1000Wrms @ 4ohm for the sub.


----------



## Maglite

Nice review

Would love to have one.....but the price


----------



## TPMS

Buzzman said:


> ...
> 
> 9/30/09:
> 
> "I continued my experimentation with the Hsu ASW-1203 as I purchased a cheap pre-fab enclosure measuring 1.5 cubic feet to try it in. I have been very curious about what effect a larger enclosure would have. Well, I was extremely pleased with the results: flatter response, deeper bass extension, greater low frequency output and no loss of articulation. I just can’t get over how good this sub is, and its price makes it case even more compelling. Based on my experience to date I recommend 1.5 cubic feet as the target enclosure size, loosely filled with fiberglass or polyfill. I also like to use Black Hole 5 or No Rez from GR Research to line the enclosure. Note that if you use Black Hole 5 you have to increase the internal volume by about 10%.
> 
> I also put the Morel Ultimo in the same enclosure and it too greatly benefitted. It was more dynamic and provided greater output in the lower frequencies than before. The Morel Ultimo definitely bests the Hsu in terms of clarity, detail and transient response. It is just incredible in these categories. However, with the DLS A6 driving it, it does not have the output in the lower frequencies the Hsu has. The Hsu sub, in combinatin with the DLS A6, reproduces bass notes with greater body, warmth, fullness and depth, thus giving the music a much more solid bass foundation which adds greatly to my enjoyment. We will see what happens when I have my new Celestra DA2K installed tomorrow and the Ultimo now has 1,300 watts available to it.
> 
> To be continued."
> 
> 10/02/09:
> 
> "Today, my new Celestra DA2K amplifier was installed. The difference between it and the DLS A6 can be summed up in one word, astonishing. I plan to write a separate review of the Celestra amp. For purposes of this review, I offer the following: The Celestra amp retails for about 3.5x the price of the DLS, so it's in a different league price wise. Sonically, it is also in another league. The amp's power capabilities are quite impressive. It's rated at 650 Watts into 4 Ohms, 1400 Watts into 2 Ohms and 2100 Watts into 1 Ohm, and it draws massive amounts of current, so you know those numbers are not exaggerated. It grabbed the Hsu ASW-1203 not with an iron fist, but a titanium fist, and controlled the bass like nothing I had heard before. The bass was so tight, and extended so low and with such clarity, that an already great sounding sub sounded even even more impressive. I now had that magical combination of slam, coherency and detail. It was readily apparent that notes played through the DLS amp were blurred in comparison. Transient response was much improved. The Celestra's power capabilities provided great hope for my Morel Ultimo 12 which is quite the power monger. So, in went the Ultimo. I slipped in the Buzzman's Ultimate Bass Demo cd, and after playing a couple of tracks I knew I wouldn't be removing the Ultimo. Everything the Hsu sub did well, it did better. The Celestra amp provided it what it had not been getting with the DLS amp; lots of power and vicelike control of its huge voice coil. The fact that the Morel Ultimo 12 will remain in my system does not change my opinion that the Hsu ASW-1203 is the ultimate SQ/Value package. If I didn't already have the Morel Ultimo 12, I would be fully satisfied with the Hsu ASW-1203 providing the sub bass in my car."
> 
> 
> Next Question.



I have a quite similar amp to DLS A6 (Genesis Monoblock) and am wondering 
if it willbe enough for getting the best out of Ultimo 12 2 Ohms ..

can't get from your post if that power is not the best fit for Ultimo 4Ohm or also for the 2Ohm version.
can you please tell some more about differencies that you perceived from running the Ultimo 2Ohm version with the DLS amp vs the Celestra DA2K 1?

thanks


----------



## DAT

matdotcom2000 said:


> lol, well maybe its not the sub for me. I am looking for 2 subs to replace my 1 idmax10. I want it to be louder, deeper and around 5.5 inches deep. I thought this could be it


I'd grab a Ultimo 10 or 12" if you can. The Idmax is a very nice sounding speaker but mounting depth is more than you want. 

The Ultimo gets loud and low but the key thing is that it does not rattle and hum around around make extra noises. it gets down to the point plays the notes then waits for the next. Sounds great on all music, want 140db or higher? just grab any 2 12's or a big 15" and mega amps on it sure...

But guys on here like the SQ... I listen to everything... and this sub is incredible.. should have not sold my 10" last year.

I plan on getting a 4ohm 12 "version soon. I also heard they maybe be making a 15" Ultimo... 




Expensive? yes ! worth it? to me YES... it will play louder if thats what you want compared to the IDmax it has a 5" VC... now thats crazy. Only sub I heard I like in the same league is a RE XxX older style, but then you got 75lbs of speaker and very very deep.


----------



## Buzzman

TPMS said:


> I have a quite similar amp to DLS A6 (Genesis Monoblock) and am wondering
> if it willbe enough for getting the best out of Ultimo 12 2 Ohms ..
> 
> can't get from your post if that power is not the best fit for Ultimo 4Ohm or also for the 2Ohm version.


I thought my posts were pretty clear. You WILL need and benefit from the most power you can use to drive the Ultimo. 1,000 Watts or more being ideal. There are few high SQ, well made, amplifiers that put out that kind of power into 4 Ohms. Because an amp driving a 2 Ohm load will generally put out more power than it does driving a 4 Ohm load (the Alpine PDX is one exception, for example), you will be better served to acquire the 2 Ohm version of the Ultimo and finding an amplifier that puts out as close as possible to 1,000 watts into 2 Ohms. 



TPMS said:


> can you please tell some more about differencies that you perceived from running the Ultimo 2Ohm version with the DLS amp vs the Celestra DA2K 1?
> 
> thanks


I cannot add anything new to what I already said.


----------



## TPMS

Buzzman said:


> I thought my posts were pretty clear. You WILL need and benefit from the most power you can use to drive the Ultimo. 1,000 Watts or more being ideal. There are few high SQ, well made, amplifiers that put out that kind of power into 4 Ohms. Because an amp driving a 2 Ohm load will generally put out more power than it does driving a 4 Ohm load (the Alpine PDX is one exception, for example), you will be better served to acquire the 2 Ohm version of the Ultimo and finding an amplifier that puts out as close as possible to 1,000 watts into 2 Ohms.
> 
> I cannot add anything new to what I already said.



that's clear.
just wanted to know if comments in your red post were referring to the 2Ohm version or to the former 4Ohm version.
From your answer I now guess that you were referring to the 2Ohm version.


----------



## nautilus

Ultimate Sub. :laugh4::shocked:


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

Bummer I was hoping to run a pair of 2 ohm versions in a 1.2 cf perside box. don't have room to run 2 cf


----------



## subwoofery

Buzzman said:


> ...Knowing that I didn’t want to have a 2.1 cubic foot enclosure occupying my valuable trunk space, and also thinking that the Ultimo 12 had ideal parameters for an Aperiodic set-up (Qts of .36, combined with a high Vas and low Fs), I decided to explore using an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure. Such an application would allow me to use a very small enclosure while experiencing the sonic benefits of a much larger one. Not having the time or the equipment to build and tune my own AP Mat, I sought out the services of Speaker Works located in Orange County here in California. They have long extolled the virtues of AP subwoofer applications (going back to the storied Buick Grand National champion car), and build AP mats to order. I contacted Eric Holdaway, who confirmed my conclusions about the Ultimo, sent him the Ultimo’s T/S parameters, and they proceeded to build an AP mat for me. See photo attached. I then had an enclosure built to house the Ultimo and the AP mat (photos attached). The enclosure ended up being about .55 cubic feet net. The key to executing an AP set-up is isolating the front wave from the rear wave...





subwoofery said:


> Was interested in what you've done and would like to understand this concept a bit more.
> 
> Can you please tell us what kind of parameters should we look for to be AP ready?
> Did you line the walls with any kind of damping material?
> Is it safe to assume that the vent you ordered is similar than the ScanSpeak flow resistance vent, except yours is more suited to the Ultimo. Seems like there might be some difference since an AP vent needs the front wave separated from the rear wave - with the flow resistance vent it is not necessary...
> 
> 
> Thank you
> Kelvin


Bumping myself 

Kelvin


----------



## lucas569

i assume 650 watts is not enough?


----------



## Mooble

lucas569 said:


> i assume 650 watts is not enough?


It will work acceptably with 650, but you'd rather have more. You might want to consider the Ultimo SC too. By all accounts it sounds nearly identical to its big brother.


----------



## DAT

Mooble said:


> It will work acceptably with 650, but you'd rather have more. You might want to consider the Ultimo SC too. *By all accounts it sounds nearly identical to its big brother*.


Really? Thats good to know !

I always get more powerful amp than my rated speakers... if my tweeters are rated at 50w rms , you can easily put 150w rms or more on them as long as you have them crossed over at the recommended freq or slightly higher usually.


----------



## TPMS

it should also be said that wattage quality is not made equal
and, if we are talking here SQ, I am not sure I would trade my 800wrms, AB-class quality and distorsion level, with 1000wrms D-class quality, even from that Celestra.
.. it's not a case that also Celestra lists its VA-series class AB amps (whose VA210 top model has the same output as my Genesis) at more than double the cost of its DA2K 

I mean, what could come out of Ultimo using more watts, could be at the expense of more than proportional distorsion ..

.. just got an idea: as I have also a genesis DMX, that gives 1000W at 4 Ohms, need to test what difference between running Ultimo with that or with Monoblock


----------



## sands1

subwoofery said:


> Was interested in what you've done and would like to understand this concept a bit more.
> 
> Can you please tell us what kind of parameters should we look for to be AP ready?
> Did you line the walls with any kind of damping material?
> Is it safe to assume that the vent you ordered is similar than the ScanSpeak flow resistance vent, except yours is more suited to the Ultimo. Seems like there might be some difference since an AP vent needs the front wave separated from the rear wave - with the flow resistance vent it is not necessary...
> 
> 
> Thank you
> Kelvin


From what I have read a sub with a QTS of 0.45 or less would be a good candidate for an AP enclosure. 
And if the box is much larger than the sub itself it is recomended to stuff/damping material to 60% of total box volume while leaving a open channel from the back of the sub to the vent.

I plan to build an AP enclosure in the rear side of my 4runner because of a space issue. Im test/listening a Ultimo 12 4ohm (Qts 0.345), a Pioneer TS-W12PRS (Qts 0.39)and a Max Fidelity MF300/77S4 (Qts 0.38).

I think no matter what vent you use you would still need the front and rear wave to be separated correct? If not please point me in that direction because if I don't have to cut a hole to the outside in the sheet metal then you've made me one happy camper .


----------



## Buzzman

JDMRB1ODY said:


> Bummer I was hoping to run a pair of 2 ohm versions in a 1.2 cf perside box. don't have room to run 2 cf


There is nothing to be "bummed" about. It WILL sound excellent with that internal volume, but you will have an orgasm with a 2.1 cubic foot enclosure.  (Plus, less power is needed with the larger enclosure.) As I noted in my posts, the way to accomplish that when you have real space limitations, is to use an aperiodic sealed enclosure: very small enclosure, results of a much larger enclosure.  But, I would not run two 2 Ohm versions because you will end up with either a 1 Ohm or a 4 Ohm load. A 1 Ohm load would not be my first choice. I would run two 4 Ohm subs, wire them in series and end up with a 2 Ohm load. I won't repeat here the reasons why as they are stated in my prior posts.


----------



## Buzzman

subwoofery said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by subwoofery
> Was interested in what you've done and would like to understand this concept a bit more.
> 
> Can you please tell us what kind of parameters should we look for to be AP ready?
> Did you line the walls with any kind of damping material?
> Is it safe to assume that the vent you ordered is similar than the ScanSpeak flow resistance vent, except yours is more suited to the Ultimo. Seems like there might be some difference since an AP vent needs the front wave separated from the rear wave - with the flow resistance vent it is not necessary...
> 
> 
> Thank you
> Kelvin
> 
> Bumping myself
> 
> Kelvin


Hey Kelvin, sorry for not responding to your post. I didn't see it along the way. Old age!

I posted these links before: AP Enclosures-The Aperiodic Cookbook; | Tutorials | Team Audionutz

http://www.usdaudio.com/products/ap.php;

Tutorials at SpeakerWorks/USD Audio

Check them out and you will learn the basic theories behing AP implementation. 

The Scanspeak variovent you refer to is NOT what you would use for a subwoofer application. The links I provide will make clear why.


----------



## lucas569

Mooble said:


> It will work acceptably with 650, but you'd rather have more. You might want to consider the Ultimo SC too. By all accounts it sounds nearly identical to its big brother.


you listened to the SC ???


----------



## lucas569

looks like the sc version is around $399 but i dont see them fs anywhere...


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

> There is nothing to be "bummed" about. It WILL sound excellent with that internal volume, but you will have an orgasm with a 2.1 cubic foot enclosure


Planning on running the 780W to each 12 in a 1.2 box. I'll definately look into a AP setup due to my space limits. Wish i could ditch my 3rd. row seat.


----------



## 727south

After 16 years in car audio and this might be the answer.


----------



## KLoNe

In a Large sedan; how would 1x 12" Ultimo go running off a Zapco 9.0XD? Should I go with 2x instead?


----------



## Mooble

It depends on your taste in music. I think one would be more than enough, but if you REALLY like bass, you might want two. I really think one would be all you need for normal listening.


----------



## quality_sound

Plus, if everything is set up correctly most of the "bass" will be coming from the midbass drivers anyway. Every time I get into a car with REALLY good midbass I realize just how little the sub really contibutes. 

I agree a single 12 would probably be enough but that's also dependant on listening habits and enclosure type.


----------



## KLoNe

Thanks for the replies. How would the Ultimo like having 2200W thrown at it? Trying to push it too hard? :/


----------



## DAT

KLoNe said:


> Thanks for the replies. How would the Ultimo like having 2200W thrown at it? Trying to push it too hard? :/


IMHO they are power hungry, if you a have a huge Zapco amp... I would go for the pair of drivers and still keep the gains down. These speakers don't really "boom" they are more natural sounding. If you play a song with lots of bass it plays every note accurately does not add to the sound. 

Sure these sound good with Rap, Rock, Techno / Trance but they also sound good with Country, Easy Listening, and all others.

I agree 2.1 - 2.3 Cu ft is Fantastic. I would think if you ran a pair in a sealed box with no divider the box would be a bit smaller. Around 750W rms to 1300w rms is best.


----------



## AWC

I'll be able to do direct replacement comparisons this week. I've had one 12 running in a 2.2 vented with 19X4 inch port. It sounds good and is cretainly loud. However, after reading some of these reviews, I have decided to build a direct replacement for that box that will end up being .65 cubes, after displacement. Both set-ups are powered by Arc 1500Dr..so about 900 watts, RMS, into four ohms. We'll see.

The box is made out of my hatchback's lid...thingy. It sits where the cargo lid was and I really like the look. I decided to do it the same way as the other. I'm building it with 1/2 inch plywood and fiberglass. I was hoping for a lighter box than the other. Its made REALLY well, as in overkill. I'm looking forward to the comparison.


----------



## DAT

I love my Ultimo 12 is it different than the Dynaudio 1200, UL12, DIYMA 12, and so many others yes. I have now heard the UL12, DIYMA 12, and many others...

I need to test the Dyna 1200 sometime, but I can IMHO say the DIYMA 12 never sounded good to me.. 


I agree with NPDANG on the white paper but the Ultimo sounds great to me... 

Buy what you want and don't be a FORUM BONER member... Listen before you make your opinions.


----------



## DAT

AWC said:


> I'll be able to do direct replacement comparisons this week. I've had one 12 running in a 2.2 vented with 19X4 inch port. It sounds good and is cretainly loud. However, after reading some of these reviews, I have decided to build a direct replacement for that box that will end up being *.65 cubes,* after displacement. Both set-ups are powered by Arc 1500Dr..so about 900 watts, RMS, into four ohms. We'll see.
> 
> The box is made out of my hatchback's lid...thingy. It sits where the cargo lid was and I really like the look. I decided to do it the same way as the other. I'm building it with 1/2 inch plywood and fiberglass. I was hoping for a lighter box than the other. Its made REALLY well, as in overkill. I'm looking forward to the comparison.


Really .65? I have a small SUV and my Ultimo was ok in a small box but got kickstarted into 5th gear when I went 2cuft.

I bet in a trunk with a AP mat ported to the interior they would be excellent.

Like Buzzman's


----------



## AWC

DAT said:


> Really .65? I have a small SUV and my Ultimo was ok in a small box but got kickstarted into 5th gear when I went 2cuft.
> 
> I bet in a trunk with a AP mat ported to the interior they would be excellent.
> 
> Like Buzzman's


I created the box with removeable space takers roughly .1 cubes each

I can bring it all the way to 1.5 sealed if I want. Having a 2.2 cube box already, I figured on trying both, why build another big box....

I also left enough room to try out passive radiators if I want. I know that's not really been done with the ultimo, but its a damned hobby, right? I like messing around with **** I've already tried a big sealed box and I didn't like it as well as the same box with a giant port. So I didn't know where else to try...ya know/...messing around with ****. I should also say that I'm only building this box with things left around the house. I'll end up spending $6 on this box (not including beer money). That is if you look at these extra supplies as free....which I am, since I bought it a year ago.


----------



## MaXaZoR

Has anyone tried this sub in IB?


----------



## Buzzman

KLoNe said:


> In a Large sedan; how would 1x 12" Ultimo go running off a Zapco 9.0XD? Should I go with 2x instead?


You don't specify what car you have, but I have a Merc S500 and I ended my subwoofer search with my Ultimo 12 in my application. Do you NEED 2? No. However, if you can accommodate 2 (ideally 2 of the 4 Ohm versions wired in series for a 2 Ohm load), there are advantages. You will have greater surface area and efficiency, which will allow you to reproduce large scale music and dynamics with less effort.


----------



## Buzzman

KLoNe said:


> Thanks for the replies. How would the Ultimo like having 2200W thrown at it? Trying to push it too hard? :/


You must realize that it is VERY unlikely that any music you play will require that 2200 watts (or anywhere that) be sent to the sub on a *continuous* basis. Nevertheless, the sub is rated to handle that kind of power, and having more power than not, gives you the headroom to handle those dynamic swings that do require more output without clipping your amplifier.


----------



## Buzzman

AWC said:


> I'll be able to do direct replacement comparisons this week. I've had one 12 running in a 2.2 vented with 19X4 inch port. It sounds good and is cretainly loud. However, after reading some of these reviews, I have decided to build a direct replacement for that box that will end up being .65 cubes, after displacement. Both set-ups are powered by Arc 1500Dr..so about 900 watts, RMS, into four ohms. We'll see.
> 
> The box is made out of my hatchback's lid...thingy. It sits where the cargo lid was and I really like the look. I decided to do it the same way as the other. I'm building it with 1/2 inch plywood and fiberglass. I was hoping for a lighter box than the other. Its made REALLY well, as in overkill. I'm looking forward to the comparison.


Are you planning to put the Ultimo 12 in a sealed box that is Net .65 cubic feet? If so, save your money and buy another sub. You will not hear the full capabilities of the Ultimo in such a small enclosure and will end up disappointed.


----------



## KLoNe

Buzzman said:


> You don't specify what car you have, but I have a Merc S500 and I ended my subwoofer search with my Ultimo 12 in my application. Do you NEED 2? No. However, if you can accommodate 2 (ideally 2 of the 4 Ohm versions wired in series for a 2 Ohm load), there are advantages. You will have greater surface area and efficiency, which will allow you to reproduce large scale music and dynamics with less effort.


Sorry Buzzman: Here is my current setup.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/65450-2003-mitsubishi-verada-ei.html

Will be running:
- DRZ9255
- HAT 841 3-way
- ARC Audio SE or BRAX amplification
- Ultimo 12" 1x or 2x
- Zapco 9.0XD 4 Ohm


----------



## Buzzman

KLoNe said:


> Sorry Buzzman: Here is my current setup.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/65450-2003-mitsubishi-verada-ei.html
> 
> Will be running:
> - DRZ9255
> - HAT 841 3-way
> - ARC Audio SE or BRAX amplification
> - Ultimo 12" 1x or 2x
> - Zapco 9.0XD 4 Ohm


If I were you I would do one Ultimo 12, aperiodic sealed enclosure, with the enclosure attached to a baffle behind your rear seat, the sub firing through the ski hole opening in the rear seat, and with the trunk completely sealed off from the cabin.


----------



## lucas569

DAT said:


> Really .65? I have a small SUV and my Ultimo was ok in a small box but got kickstarted into 5th gear when I went 2cuft.
> 
> I bet in a trunk with a AP mat ported to the interior they would be excellent.
> 
> Like Buzzman's


DAT i was going to pm you about the ultimo and how you liked it? 

mini review???


----------



## jayjaytuner

look forward to getting this speaker


----------



## AWC

Buzzman said:


> Are you planning to put the Ultimo 12 in a sealed box that is Net .65 cubic feet? If so, save your money and buy another sub. You will not hear the full capabilities of the Ultimo in such a small enclosure and will end up disappointed.


ended up with a net of about .9 after removing some blocks that I put in there to be able to adjust the volume as needed. It sounds bad because I used some CCF foam around the bottom of the frame as a gasket....a leakey gasket, unfortunately. I don't have the money for modeling clay and carpet quite yet but that will be a better seal and should fix the issue.


----------



## quality_sound

Actually it'll seal better without the carpet under the mounting lip. And I wouldn't use clay to seal it either. Some thin weatherstripping from Lowe's or Home Depot works fine as long as it's taped to the sub, not the baffle, and then compleressed as you secure the sub. it doesn't need to be very thick either. I wouldn't do anything thicker than 1/8" tops.


----------



## AWC

so who can give me more information about aperiodic membranes and the ultimo? If you have a link, I'd like to see it

Search didn't hand over the link but I'll admit to not having alot of time to search better.


----------



## AWC

quality_sound said:


> Actually it'll seal better without the carpet under the mounting lip. And I wouldn't use clay to seal it either. Some thin weatherstripping from Lowe's or Home Depot works fine as long as it's taped to the sub, not the baffle, and then compleressed as you secure the sub. it doesn't need to be very thick either. I wouldn't do anything thicker than 1/8" tops.


uggghh....the issue was that I chiseled most of this box by hand and the mounting ring isn't perfectly smoothe. I need to make it at least level and smoothe. I figured the non-hardening clay would rfix that.


----------



## cwells2

I have an Ultimo 12 in roughly a 2.0 cube sealed box powered by a Zapco DC750.2 and I couldn't be more pleased. I used to have two Treo SSi 10's and the single Ultimo 12 is more accurate and has a strong presence when I needed in my system. I highly recommend it for a quality SQ type sub.


----------



## cwells2

Anyone else with Ultimo 12's? What amount of power has been ideal for you?


----------



## DAT

cwells2 said:


> Anyone else with Ultimo 12's? What amount of power has been ideal for you?


I think they sound best at 800 to 1100w rms.

But I'm going to try 2 Ultimo 12 -2ohms wired to 4 ohm with 600w RMS and see what she'll do.

yeah for me anything under 1.75 cuft sealed sucked butt.

Going to try ported real soon, Morel Techs thought it would be very impressive.

Small SUV


----------



## cwells2

nice...I have 800 rms to mine and i only have it to 60% of it capacity and it is impressive...good luck with your dual 12 setup and i am eager to see how well they perform with that amount of power


----------



## AWC

I loved my 2.2 cube ported with an 18 X4 inch port.


----------



## quality_sound

cwells2 said:


> nice...I have 800 rms to mine and i only have it to 60% of it capacity and it is impressive...good luck with your dual 12 setup and i am eager to see how well they perform with that amount of power



Please don't tell me you think this because of your gain setting.


----------



## KLoNe

DAT said:


> I think they sound best at 800 to 1100w rms.
> 
> But I'm going to try 2 Ultimo 12 -2ohms wired to 4 ohm with 600w RMS and see what she'll do.
> 
> yeah for me anything under 1.75 cuft sealed sucked butt.
> 
> Going to try ported real soon, Morel Techs thought it would be very impressive.
> 
> Small SUV


Wasn't there a uproar about wiring subs in series? A big no-no?


----------



## DAT

KLoNe said:


> Wasn't there a uproar about wiring subs in series? A big no-no?


No sure who started that, the amps sees what it's shown. I even talked to Morel Techs in NY and they agreed it would be A-okay... 

I have a 2ohm and a 4ohm Ultimo 12 now, so I guess I'll be getting another 2ohm. Or maybe trade someone that needs a 4 ohm for a 2ohm.


----------



## KLoNe

Give it a go; I can't wait to hear how she goes.

I'd like to try 2x 2Ohm Ultimos running from a C2K9.0.


----------



## Buzzman

AWC said:


> so who can give me more information about aperiodic membranes and the ultimo? If you have a link, I'd like to see it
> 
> Search didn't hand over the link but I'll admit to not having alot of time to search better.


Did you search this thread? Some of my earlier posts in this thread address this. And, here are some relevant links again: 

AP Enclosures-The Aperiodic Cookbook | Tutorials | Team Audionutz

USD Audio AP Mats

Tutorials at SpeakerWorks/USD Audio


----------



## Buzzman

DAT said:


> I think they sound best at 800 to 1100w rms.
> 
> But I'm going to try 2 Ultimo 12 -2ohms wired to 4 ohm with 600w RMS and see what she'll do. . . .


The only reason to do this is if you already have a 2 Ohm version of the sub, and your amplifier puts out the same power into both a 4 Ohm load and a 2 Ohm load. If neither is the case, you will be much better off using 2 4 Ohm Ultimo wired for a 2 Ohm load. You will likely get at least 50% more power from your amplifier, make clipping less likely, etc.


----------



## AWC

Buzzman said:


> Did you search this thread? Some of my earlier posts in this thread address this. And, here are some relevant links again:
> 
> AP Enclosures-The Aperiodic Cookbook | Tutorials | Team Audionutz
> 
> USD Audio AP Mats
> 
> Tutorials at SpeakerWorks/USD Audio


Honestly I only searched for the 5 minutes between one work related debacle and another. My home pc is cashed and I didn't see any time in the horizon to look anything up. I was hoping to click a link and print the sucker before leaving yesterday but I never got a chance to get back online. I appreciate the links


----------



## AWC

I was fairly sure I knew the AP's would be out and they are. I did a perfucntory search on them a year or so ago. My enclosure doesn't seperate the listening area from the cargo area which is one of the defining points of AP. Had I glassed the sub into the rear corner, I would have tried IB first but this would be better for an install like that. That's not what I have though.


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

Really bummed having to run a 2 cube box. If I run a pair each at 1.25 will that make up for the lack of box space. Amps will be 1200/1 JL HD's.  Can't use AP I have no trunk.


----------



## Buzzman

JDMRB1ODY said:


> Really bummed having to run a 2 cube box. If I run a pair each at 1.25 will that make up for the lack of box space. Amps will be 1200/1 JL HD's.  Can't use AP I have no trunk.


Nowhere in this thread was it said you HAVE to use a 2 cubic foot enclosure for the Ultimo. I know I said if you want to BEST SQ performance from the Ultimo, that is the ideal enclosure size. But you will get quite satisfactory results with a 1.25 cubic foot enclosure, and depending on your preference with sub bass reproduction, you might well prefer the sound associated with a higher Qtc alignment. I much prefer the sound associated with a lower Qtc alignment.


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

Good to hear. so would 1.25 each for Ultimo 12 be better or run a SC 12 in a slightly smaller box with a HD 750/1 ?


----------



## Buzzman

JDMRB1ODY said:


> Good to hear. so would 1.25 each for Ultimo 12 be better or run a SC 12 in a slightly smaller box with a HD 750/1 ?


Unfortunately, I don't have any first hand experience with the Ultimo SC12, and cannot offer an opinion with respect to the sonic differences between the two. That being said, based on its specs, the SC12 is much more efficient and requires much less power to achieve the kind of output level we generally seek in our systems, and will offer its best performance in a slightly smaller enclosure. Thus, unless someone can offer an opinion on the sound quality differences between the two, make your decision based on your budget, amplifier power, and how large an enclosure you can accommodate.


----------



## AWC

Tested the smaller enclosure. It sounded good, very articulate, but I prefer the SPL of the 2.2 vented enclosure I was using prior. It was as articulate but it had the oomph that I would call an SQL set-up, if there is such a thing. Both enclosures had their strong point. I think the smaller sealed enclosure may have blended easier with the fronts but only barely. That is probably only a result of more vibrations coming from the rear than with the sealed. IOW louder meant more rattles in spite of my constant attempts to control them. I am considering a second sub so that I may reach the desired SPL with less overall vibration. It makes since in my mind...plus I could power 2 ohms instead of four.

Buzzman, I am strongly considering cutting a hole in my rear quarter panel and installing it with an AP venting out into the tail light. I've got plenty of room back there, behind the trim. It would mean destroying my quarter panel which is what I'm most worried about. I had long considered an IB configuration using the same location but it seems AP is better for this driver. 

On another note, all of this experimenting I've been doing is really helping my glassing skillz

My small sealed enclosure will become a home sub (was always the plan). I'm just not sure the AP will sound as good/loud as the 2.2 vented I'm used to. The large vented enclosure really makes this thing sing.


----------



## Buzzman

AWC said:


> Tested the smaller enclosure. It sounded good, very articulate, but I prefer the SPL of the 2.2 vented enclosure I was using prior. It was as articulate but it had the oomph that I would call an SQL set-up, if there is such a thing. Both enclosures had their strong point. I think the smaller sealed enclosure may have blended easier with the fronts but only barely. That is probably only a result of more vibrations coming from the rear than with the sealed. IOW louder meant more rattles in spite of my constant attempts to control them. I am considering a second sub so that I may reach the desired SPL with less overall vibration. It makes since in my mind...plus I could power 2 ohms instead of four.
> 
> Buzzman, I am strongly considering cutting a hole in my rear quarter panel and installing it with an AP venting out into the tail light. I've got plenty of room back there, behind the trim. It would mean destroying my quarter panel which is what I'm most worried about. I had long considered an IB configuration using the same location but it seems AP is better for this driver.
> 
> On another note, all of this experimenting I've been doing is really helping my glassing skillz
> 
> My small sealed enclosure will become a home sub (was always the plan). I'm just not sure the AP will sound as good/loud as the 2.2 vented I'm used to. The large vented enclosure really makes this thing sing.


If you like your ported enclosure so much, I suggest you use it and preserve the integrity of your car.


----------



## lucas569

AWC said:


> Tested the smaller enclosure. It sounded good, very articulate, but I prefer the SPL of the 2.2 vented enclosure I was using prior. It was as articulate but it had the oomph that I would call an SQL set-up, if there is such a thing. Both enclosures had their strong point. I think the smaller sealed enclosure may have blended easier with the fronts but only barely. That is probably only a result of more vibrations coming from the rear than with the sealed. IOW louder meant more rattles in spite of my constant attempts to control them. I am considering a second sub so that I may reach the desired SPL with less overall vibration. It makes since in my mind...plus I could power 2 ohms instead of four.
> 
> Buzzman, I am strongly considering cutting a hole in my rear quarter panel and installing it with an AP venting out into the tail light. I've got plenty of room back there, behind the trim. It would mean destroying my quarter panel which is what I'm most worried about. I had long considered an IB configuration using the same location but it seems AP is better for this driver.
> 
> On another note, all of this experimenting I've been doing is really helping my glassing skillz
> 
> My small sealed enclosure will become a home sub (was always the plan). I'm just not sure the AP will sound as good/loud as the 2.2 vented I'm used to. The large vented enclosure really makes this thing sing.


post a pic of the vented enclosure, id like to see what it looks like


----------



## danno14

Buzzman said:


> If neither is the case, you will be much better off using 2 4 Ohm Ultimo wired for a 2 Ohm load.



Exactly why I am looking for a second DA2K..... 

(shamelessly looking!)

I also agree upon leaving your car (relatively) intact. Pursuit of the Holy Grail may be valued for the entertainment, but seldom yields anything you can drink from


----------



## AWC

Well my big box takes the entire cargo area. I've been careful not to post pictures of my box. It was created with a real hippy concept in mind. It was made by creating "ribs" that increase in size by a ration of 1:1.6(1.618 was the goal). This is called the "golden ration". It looks much like a conch, which follows that golden ration....its a fantastic set of natural consitincies that I find fascinating. 

It has an MDF top but the rest of the box is made by these rings that increase in size by said ration and wrapped in fiberglass. Its pretty much a pure fiberglass creation that was a result of...probably too much percocet and morphine

It is almost shaped like a conch with the port being situated as if it were a horn shaped and the air is channeled into the port. 

I was high

The real issue is that the bottom is not smoothe and clean enough to show off. The top, however, looks fantastic when the hatchback is closed and it looks like a car. I need an angle grinder to get rid of...newbie mistakes in the surfacing using all purpose putty. When the hatchback is closed and I'm driving...I feel its a creation of pure genius. Its just not ready to show off...except for just looking at it as a car...if that makes sense.

The issue is I have a big dog and getting it into the corner would really be nice.


----------



## AWC

OK. I completed the first half of my AP enclosure. I managed to vent the rear through my quarter panel where the jack was stored. I've vented the outer portion of the vehicle for better rear ventilation but it was fairly well vented as is.

Instead of cutting a hole in my panel, I removed the panel, wrapped it in saran wrap, and started laying down peices of MDF to make the basic shape of the enclosure. Then a poured the resin, almost like a mold. I used copper BB's in areas I needed extra thickness but didn't have an MDF frame for. One I had a decent shape, I drilled several SEVERAL 1" holes in the back. Laid approximately 9"X9" square of 1.75 pound per sq/ft fiberglass insulation. I laid a frame on top of some 1/4" hardware cloth and screwed the insulation down to cover the many 1" holes.

I've got a flat response down 20 hz. I'm not nearly done as I've got to sand it, prime it, sand it, paint it. It sounds fantastic. After using a giant ported enclosure, I was worried that I would be underwhelmed. Not at all. The tiny enclosure DOES make the big sound that the AP mats claim. I was very impressed.


----------



## M-Dub

AWC said:


> I've got a flat response down 20 hz.


Got RTA screenshots?


----------



## sands1

AWC said:


> OK. I completed the first half of my AP enclosure. I managed to vent the rear through my quarter panel where the jack was stored. I've vented the outer portion of the vehicle for better rear ventilation but it was fairly well vented as is.
> 
> Instead of cutting a hole in my panel, I removed the panel, wrapped it in saran wrap, and started laying down peices of MDF to make the basic shape of the enclosure. Then a poured the resin, almost like a mold. I used copper BB's in areas I needed extra thickness but didn't have an MDF frame for. One I had a decent shape, I drilled several SEVERAL 1" holes in the back. Laid approximately 9"X9" square of 1.75 pound per sq/ft fiberglass insulation. I laid a frame on top of some 1/4" hardware cloth and screwed the insulation down to cover the many 1" holes.
> 
> I've got a flat response down 20 hz. I'm not nearly done as I've got to sand it, prime it, sand it, paint it. It sounds fantastic. After using a giant ported enclosure, I was worried that I would be underwhelmed. Not at all. The tiny enclosure DOES make the big sound that the AP mats claim. I was very impressed.


I would really appreciate some pic's of your enclosure and vented area if you could. A week ago I trashed my fiberglass only mold in favor of a more all mdf idea as well and could use some inspiration.
Glad it turned out really well for you.


----------



## Buzzman

AWC said:


> OK. I completed the first half of my AP enclosure. . . I've got a flat response down 20 hz. I'm not nearly done as I've got to sand it, prime it, sand it, paint it. It sounds fantastic. After using a giant ported enclosure, I was worried that I would be underwhelmed. Not at all. The tiny enclosure DOES make the big sound that the AP mats claim. I was very impressed.


I am glad you took the leap and in the process became enlightened and a believer.  You will find that you, and others who listen to your set-up, will hear bass reproduction with a level of clarity and resolution you had not heard before, and as a result your perception of what constitutes "sufficient" bass will surely change.


----------



## snaimpally

AWC said:


> Well my big box takes the entire cargo area. I've been careful not to post pictures of my box. It was created with a real hippy concept in mind. It was made by creating "ribs" that increase in size by a ration of 1:1.6(1.618 was the goal). This is called the "golden ration". It looks much like a conch, which follows that golden ration....its a fantastic set of natural consitincies that I find fascinating.
> 
> It has an MDF top but the rest of the box is made by these rings that increase in size by said ration and wrapped in fiberglass. Its pretty much a pure fiberglass creation that was a result of...probably too much percocet and morphine
> 
> It is almost shaped like a conch with the port being situated as if it were a horn shaped and the air is channeled into the port.
> 
> I was high
> 
> The real issue is that the bottom is not smoothe and clean enough to show off. The top, however, looks fantastic when the hatchback is closed and it looks like a car. I need an angle grinder to get rid of...newbie mistakes in the surfacing using all purpose putty. When the hatchback is closed and I'm driving...I feel its a creation of pure genius. Its just not ready to show off...except for just looking at it as a car...if that makes sense.
> 
> The issue is I have a big dog and getting it into the corner would really be nice.


I need an emoticon that says your post is useless without pics!!! Please post pics.


----------



## AWC

I will get some pictures in. Sorry, no screen shot...well, I guess its possible. Anyway, my screen shot will be that of the Audyssey results from my h650.

My system is this:

JVC AVX2- I figured the more features the better since all proceesing is external. If anybody wants a head to head challenge for the full range outputs of the CDA9887 VS one of these multi-features JVC's, be my guess. I'd love to see the results, for now, I don't have the same clipping issues that I did with the Alpine. Anyway, I'm replacing this with a Panny tube soon.

This goes to a Denon 7 band. Since I use auto-tune, the 7 band is plenty of extra control for me.

The Denon's signal is sent to a Sinfoni Premier One. This is a high-quality preamp, source selector and steering wheel remote mounted volume control. I have this so that I can add a Car PC...very soon. Since this signal is sent to the external processor for all 3 channels, the Car PC can be plugged in and have the same processing. The third channel will be a plug in for an RTA....which I don't have yet.

Then the Alpine 650 Audyssey processor.

Then I have two Sinfoni 150.2x's that I use, basically, as monoblocks. Powering the passive crossovers, biamped for time allignment and which you can do mnaually using the 650. In fact you can set a;ll your parameters before running the program. It really sounds great.

Drivers are Elate 3 way system (using Piccolo tweeters). Midbass is replaced with CW8 but has Eton made Diamond 8's on the way.D)

Sub is powered by Arc 1500 Dr. bought here on diyma for under $200 and its got the juice needed.
Anyway, I'll get pics soon. I actually don't have internet at home a d can't use a thumb drive at work so its a PITA to upload anything.

The new enclosure was sanded for around 10 hours last night. Next for the fine grit and another 10 hours, then for the paint and steel wool. Its a handful but my actual results are exceeding ANY work I've seen by local installers. Since it is looking so good, it makes me work that much harder to make it look good...which makes it look so good...which makes me want to work that much harder to make it look good.....I'll get pics soon.

Unfortunately, I had planned on a regular ole' mediocre enclosure and didn't take pcitures at the time of construction. Had I known it was going to turn out so well, I would have shared the steps. As it is, I can walk you through it once I get pics up.


----------



## lucas569

snaimpally said:


> I need an emoticon that says your post is useless without pics!!! Please post pics.


----------



## snaimpally

lucas569 said:


>


Exactly! LOL!


----------



## AWC

All the pic's in this post is of the large ported enclosure that I really enjoyed. If not for the very great largeness of it, I'd still probably listen to it. Since it will fit in the vehicle at the same time as the AP Ultimo, I very well may keep it and throw some sort of ground pounder in case I want to run SPL for a day or whatever.

The enclosure was a tribute to the greats. In years past, the "golden ratio" was included in alot of art and buildings that lasted through time. In nature, it is a ratio of male to female beez (or vice versa:blush: this was a while back that I was reading about this stuff) and the ratio in which shells increase in size in snails and many sea creatures. 

Anyway, you can see the ribs increasing in size...well its increasing at that ratio to end in a larger end, inside of which is the long 4 inch port.


----------



## AWC

All the pics in this are of an unfinished, small sealed enclosure. I built this to see if I could handle the lack of output while increasing my cargo area. As you can see, I quickly decided against this one after a one day test. I never had a problem with this being a potential failure since I plan on cutting the wings of, making legs or whatever, and using it inside in an active home project I'm working on. It would have looked pretty good. I always liked the other enclosure's appearance when the rear glass is closed. Unfortunately, all of the pictures I took with the rear cargo door closed came out like a car covered in saw dust. I'll post one that maybe you can see, at least, the overall effect, if not in great detail. This smaller enclosure moved the woofer to the center but had a small issue with drooping in the middle. I would have glassed in some more support if it sounded good. This entire enclosure was built with things laying around the house...maybe ten bux spent.

You guys will, hopefully, remember that I never wanted to post pictures of these out of fear of overly hostile criticism.....


----------



## DAT

AWC said:


> You guys will, hopefully, remember that I never wanted to post pictures of these out of fear of overly hostile criticism.....


Awesome if it sounds good that's all the matters !! I give ya a 10 / 10 for creativity. I've seen some very nice enclosures made using 1" Plexi and fiberglass, and also with mirrors that sounded like dog **** but looked like a million dolllars.

Thanks for sharing


----------



## AWC

The AP enclosure is closed to finished. I didn't take pictures during construction. It looks better than it does in the pictures and feels like glass. 

I left the insides rough...and in fact roughened up some more surfaces, as a mtter of convenience, first, then, I figured it was just cheap deflex:laugh:

Included, are pictures of the rear quarter panel that this thing breathes in to. The area is vented outside in a way that I just couldn't get pictures of. Suffice to say, I put holes everywhere I could without fear of moisture. This inner cubby also breathes out to the rear, right empty speaker hole but it travels through foam to get there so...I don't see a problem

I can include steps of how I built it for the gentleman asking for inspiration if needed. It was extremely elementary and at the same time, reuired great patience and manual labor. But there was no time where I felt I couldn't do it and I'm what you may call a mid-newb.

One of my self proclaimed strokes of genius is my AP tuning system
Since I drilled one inch holes to maintain structure for my membrane...wait...take a step back. The very first time I ran this thing it was banging but it had a giant spike in the 45 HZ region. GIANT! Also, it seemed to lack over-all control. It would easily over-excurt<<<---not knowing if that's a word, of course. It was not a smoothe process

So what did was cut out plugs to shove into the one inch holes that I drilled....like, a bunch of holes. No pictures of it but you can imagine that the one inch holes are all in the shape of the opening you see in the rear quarter panel. Obviously, when there is a giant spike and it seems to lack control, it meant that I needed more resistive layers. Well **** that! I would have had a big job removing the frame I created (knowing it would be invivible) to hold the mebrane in place. Then I decided if I took it all apart and added too much...you get the conundrum, no? So I made fiberglass plugs and jammed them inside of the one inch holes and covered the hole thing with some felt that is exactly the same density used by the guys over at USD.

SO....when I ran it a second time, I noticed it was flat. I said yeah!!! That was the measurement I was stoking on that M-dub asked for a screen shot for. After further consideration, this wonderfully flat FR seemed to be well rounded, but lacked oomph in some regions. I promptly unscrewed the felt holding in the plugs of fiber glass, and removed five plugs. It was close, but ended up removing 2 more fiberglass plugs. This gave me a small spike in the 45 hz range but an amazing overall performance. It was great. I literally heard things in the lower string region that I had not heard before. Being a guy that has MANY times listened to the exact same reference tracks for...gosh, like 2 years now...I was amazed.


----------



## M-Dub

^ This looks great AWC. And takes up virtually no usable trunk space. Good job!


----------



## AWC

Thanks. The only "space" it takes up is between the back of the car and the wheel well. So based on shape alone, it really uses no useable space. I'm multi-stoked

In one of those pictures you can kind of see the lid that sits on top of my amp rack. This will have to be trimmed to accomodate the protuberance of the sub. It will then get screwed down with some arbitrary screw that no theif would ever just have a screwdriver laying around for. Underneath that lid is some real magic but its just to messy to show.


----------



## fish

Wow! Nice job man.

And thanks for the detailed description of what you did exactly, and the pics.

I apologize in advance if it's in one of your above posts, but was the overall output AP considerably noticeable over sealed?


----------



## AWC

Considerably.


----------



## sands1

Very cool enclousre AWC, Im quite stoked that the AP worked so well for you. I have aprox the same amount of room to use so thats a plus, and the tuning system you have used is obviously a wicked solution for quickly changing the vent characteristics .

Is your exit point after the AP vent going down through the bottom of your pannel to the outside somehow? or another way perhaps? Im assuming you didn't vent to the outside through the quarter pannel just behind the vent?

I started with a FB mold of the space I have to use but have decided (after seeing the pressure the ultimo was creating/delivering to a sealed mdf box I borrowed from a friend) to rebuild the entire enclosure using an mdf backing as well as front to keep it as strong as possible. I would like very much to hear in more detail how yours was built and what you did to strengthen it.

BTW Thx for posting the pic's . Here's a few of the area I have to work with as well.


Now I just have to light a fire under my ass to get mine finished too. I want my cargo space back.


----------



## AWC

Well right behind and to the right of my enclosure, I put holes into the light fixtures to vent outside. Below the enclosure, and to the center of the vehicle, I added more holes that vent outside but towards the spare tire holder. Lastly, I secured all the panels real well for the remaining pressure to be vented out of the rear speaker hole which is in the back seat but connected in the same cavity as is behind te enclosure. 

So I didn't vent directly behind the enclosure, no, but I vented in several areas around and behind the enclosure. Most;y vented outside but if there isn't enough airflow, there's still a vent in the rear speaker area that is adjoined to the entire rear quarter cavity. This area is filled with open cell foam just to reduce rattles. It will also let the air move around back there without any cancellation issues...or at least that's what I'm betting. I'll be looking for more ways to vent to the outside if possible but I'm basically sure I've done enough.


----------



## sands1

Great thats perfect, I have the rear tail light area as well as a opening under the enclosure towards the center/spare too . I think that should be plenty of air flow to get the job done too.

So when you made your enclosure for the ultimo I think I read that you used some BB's to strengthen the epoxy is that correct?


----------



## AWC

yeah, Iwas just trying to add mass in places were I hadn't been able to shape in some MDF.


----------



## moss

Just picked up an 2ohm 10" Ultimo for my hatchback. Having a custom ported box being built exactly to the morel spec sheet for "fast clean bass".

1.8cu ft with a 5x8 in port.

Hopefully this will sound good, review soon.


----------



## moss

only paid $350 for it too


----------



## moss

what break-in procedure did you guys follow for the Ultimo?


----------



## DAT

moss said:


> what break-in procedure did you guys follow for the Ultimo?


500w rms on it for 100 hours..volume at 25%


----------



## moss

DAT said:


> 500w rms on it for 100 hours..volume at 25%


:surprised:

did it sound better?


----------



## AWC

Disaster struck home. I was screwing in my sub...the very last thing to do to finsih my project...and I slipped. A small puncture about a centimeter long in the shape of a D has been installed into my surround

I put some silicone on both sides...its holding for now. Any suggestions?


----------



## DAT

AWC said:


> Disaster struck home. I was screwing in my sub...the very last thing to do to finsih my project...and I slipped. A small puncture about a centimeter long in the shape of a D has been installed into my surround
> 
> I put some silicone on both sides...its holding for now. Any suggestions?




Oooops :worried:

You could always send the sub to me.. I'd pay shipping costs.

Not really it will work but will just not as pretty.


----------



## AWC

There is no audible difference that I can hear. Man it pissed me off. Man oh man was I pissed!


----------



## 727south

Just order a 12 2ohm, 2.0 cu ft seal for a 12 Ultimo is good right? thanks.


----------



## snaimpally

727south said:


> Just order a 12 2ohm, 2.0 cu ft seal for a 12 Ultimo is good right? thanks.


Plenty. I've got mine in 1.35 cu ft gross (1.25 cu ft net) sealed. Don (Buzzman) has been advocating a bigger sealed enclosure - I think his is 1.8 cu ft.


----------



## moss

got mines in a 1.8 cu ft ported. it hits fast as ****.


----------



## quality_sound

"Mines"?


----------



## moss

don't you have some blowing up **** to do?


----------



## quality_sound

I'm multitasking.


----------



## 727south

Smaller are better? how about 1.5 cu ft seal are perfect?


----------



## subwoofery

snaimpally said:


> Plenty. I've got mine in 1.35 cu ft gross (1.25 cu ft net) sealed. Don (Buzzman) has been advocating a bigger sealed enclosure - I think his is 1.8 cu ft.


I think Don suggested a bigger box, closer to 2.1cuft. 
However his is in an aperiodic alignment now which is as small as it gets... http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/889288-post266.html

Kelvin


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

Since I don't have much room I'll try a pair of SC 12's 1cf each and see how it sounds.


----------



## AWC

Mine is now in a .5 cube AP enclosure. It's very detailed and blends extremely well with the front drivers. I'm very happy.


----------



## 727south

JDMRB1ODY said:


> Since I don't have much room I'll try a pair of SC 12's 1cf each and see how it sounds.


Where you get the SC sub from, i can't find them any where.


----------



## moss

found the ultimo sc 12" for $300.


----------



## lucas569

from where? ^^


----------



## moss

pm me and we'll deal


----------



## snaimpally

727south said:


> Where you get the SC sub from, i can't find them any where.


PM Troy (his user name is something like Tr0y_Audio) - he is an authorized dealer and gives forum members great deals.


----------



## snaimpally

JDMRB1ODY said:


> Since I don't have much room I'll try a pair of SC 12's 1cf each and see how it sounds.


Check one of the earlier posts - guy bought 2 Ultimo 12s and after he installed one he decided to sell the other off on ebay. I'd buy one and see how it goes. You might try sealed and ported in 2 CF. Check WinISD - Ultimo 12 in a ported 1.8 CF box looks amazing.


----------



## 727south

snaimpally said:


> PM Troy (his user name is something like Tr0y_Audio) - he is an authorized dealer and gives forum members great deals.


thanks


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

> Tr0y_Audio


He needs to crawl out of the woodwork. I bet tons of people are looking for someone besides w*****s ETC to get gear. Another option is Discount Car Audio, Cheap Online Stereo, CD Players, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers and more at MobileSoundWorks!


----------



## leorbolato

Hey guys, have you checked the T/S parameters for the 2 Ohms version? 

I simulated both 12" subs (4 and 2 ohms version) on Bassbox, and it seems that they quite different. The 4 ohms version seems to be superior.

Could anyone please help me in this analysis?

The specs can be found here

Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Ultimo Subwoofer - Ultimo Subwoofer

Thanks


----------



## Buzzman

leorbolato said:


> Hey guys, have you checked the T/S parameters for the 2 Ohms version?
> 
> I simulated both 12" subs (4 and 2 ohms version) on Bassbox, and it seems that they quite different. The 4 ohms version seems to be superior.
> 
> Could anyone please help me in this analysis?
> 
> The specs can be found here
> 
> Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Ultimo Subwoofer - Ultimo Subwoofer
> 
> Thanks


Superior in what way? The 2 Ohm version has much lower voice coil inductance, and you will have a MUCH easier time finding an amplifier to drive that version given its impedance than you will the 4 Ohm version.


----------



## leorbolato

Buzzman said:


> Superior in what way? The 2 Ohm version has much lower voice coil inductance, and you will have a MUCH easier time finding an amplifier to drive that version given its impedance than you will the 4 Ohm version.


If you compare the SPL response from both drivers you´ll find out that the 4 ohms version provides much more spl in lower frequencies given the same power.

The 2 ohms version have a strange response.

I would post some pictures, but i am travelling at the moment. I´ll try to add some next week.


----------



## oemplusmore

I finally put my Ultimo in last week. What a great sub. Now i see what all the hype is about. Perfect! Not boomy, fast, no lingering bass decay. Such a musical sub. All the reviews were spot on. One can't understand it until they hear it. The perfect sub for someone whose listening tastes have matured. I have it in a 1.8 ported box. The response is a little peaky, going to try 1.4 net sealed to smooth it out. Maybe I'll seal the port first. Next I'm gonna try some HAT ebony's for some more front midbass. Funny thing is, I have the Ultimo crossed @ 90 hz and no T/A and this is the first sub I've owned that truly doesn't sound like the sound is coming from the rear of my car. 
I'm on the bandwagon...


----------



## subwoofery

oemplusmore said:


> I finally put my Ulimo i last week. What a great sub. Now i see what all the hype is about. Perfect! Not boomy, fast, no lingering bass decay. Such a musical sub. All the reviews were spot on. One can't understand it until they hear it. The perfect sub for someone whose listening tastes have matured. I bought my 4-Ohm used from Shiv at a great price. I have it in a 1.8 ported box. The response is a little peaky, going to try 1.4 net sealed to smooth it out. Maybe I'll seal the port first. Next I'm gonna try some HAT ebony's for some more front midbass. Funny thing is, I have the Ultimo crossed @ 90 hz and and no T/A and this is the first sub I've owned that truly doesn't sound like the sound is coming from the rear of my car.
> I'm on the bandwagon...


Strange... You're using a class D on your front stage and class A/B on your sub  

Kelvin


----------



## P_4SPL

Buzzman said:


> As I noted in earlier posts on this thread, I have concluded that for my listening preferences, the Ultimo 12 performs best in a very large enclosure (i.e., 1.5 cubic feet or larger). I did some modeling and concluded that based on my preferences the Ultimo would be ideally placed in an approximately 2.1 cubic foot enclosure, which would yield a Qtc in the neighborhood of .6, and offer the “fast,” articulate and detailed bass I prefer, while extending really deep. It turns out that this is also one of the enclosure sizes recommended by Morel. Knowing that I didn’t want to have a 2.1 cubic foot enclosure occupying my valuable trunk space, and also thinking that the Ultimo 12 had ideal parameters for an Aperiodic set-up (Qts of .36, combined with a high Vas and low Fs), I decided to explore using an Aperiodic Sealed Enclosure. Such an application would allow me to use a very small enclosure while experiencing the sonic benefits of a much larger one. Not having the time or the equipment to build and tune my own AP Mat, I sought out the services of Speaker Works located in Orange County here in California. They have long extolled the virtues of AP subwoofer applications (going back to the storied Buick Grand National champion car), and build AP mats to order. I contacted Eric Holdaway, who confirmed my conclusions about the Ultimo, sent him the Ultimo’s T/S parameters, and they proceeded to build an AP mat for me. See photo attached. I then had an enclosure built to house the Ultimo and the AP mat (photos attached). The enclosure ended up being about .55 cubic feet net. The key to executing an AP set-up is isolating the front wave from the rear wave. My car had already been set-up for an infinite baffle application with the woofer firing up through the rear deck which had been rebuilt with a 1 inch MDF baffle replacing the factory offering, damped with Cascade V-Max and Dynamat Extreme, and attached to the metal deck. Also, the trunk was completely sealed off from the car’s cabin by my amp rack mounted behind the gas tank. So, now all I had to do was attach the new enclosure to the rear deck, double check that the trunk was sealed off as best as possible, and listen.
> 
> Well, the results, to my ear, are stupendous. The thing that struck me most immediately was that the already tight and detailed bass from the Ultimo was even tighter and more defined, with even less “overhang” when a note was struck. Low level details in the music mix became even more discernible. To me, there was clearly improved transient response. These conclusions were most evident on my bass torture tracks: Phillipe Saisse Trio “If I Ever Lose This Heaven,” Frederic Alarie “George,” Blind Boys of Alabama “Amazing Grace,” Mary Stallings “Centerpiece,” Steely Dan “Morph The Cat,” Lauryn Hill “Doo *** (That Thing),“ and Bela Fleck & The Flecktones “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo.” Not only is the bass on these tracks DEEP, but it is prominent in the mix, and closely miked in some instances. These tracks will highlight resonance problems in your car, for sure, and disclose distortion where you previously thought there was none. Playing these tracks with the Ultimo now comfortably ensconced in the AP Sealed Enclosure was a real revelation. The clarity and detail was, simply put, astounding. I heard notes replayed with a sense of “oneness” or singularity that I had not heard before. The notes struck on the upright or electric bass simply started and stopped without “overhang”, making the instrument more clearly “visible” and focused in the soundstage. This also had the result of making background vocals and recording venue noises more discernible than before. It was quite eerie, actually. The in-car bass response sounded, to me, more flat also. I will make appropriate measurements once I have the opportunity to see if the equipment confirms what I hear. There is still some fine tuning to do, and I might try to reduce the size of the enclosure even further by trimming down the AP Mat (but I don't know if the small additional space I gain will be worth the trouble). But I think it’s fair to say that my journey for the best sounding bass I could get in my car has ended for now.  And, my golf clubs now fit in my trunk!


I used an Aliente 15" subwoofer in an .3ft Aperiodic enclosure autilizing the same AP matt purchased from speaker works. It had an accordion type surround, which allowed it to have an even tighter response. It was 4" deep overall.

In terms of how well it sounded depends on your preference. I realized how musical the sub could be, it blended amazingly well with the front stage and in fact enforced allot of the upper octaves in the midband, providing a strong presence and fast transient impact to the front soundstage. Despite it being mounted behind the listener.

The lower level octaves were'nt as pronounced, and the sub struggled to produce freq's bettween 50-70HZ.

The sub played well under 40HZ, as this was due to the trunk acting as an enclosure. It played bass-tracks impressivly...but fell short with it's lack of upper bass response due to the small enclosure and accordion surround that was more designed for playing more musicall sounds, such as instruments instead of electronic instruments.

SQ wise AP enclosures provide good results, with wonderfull controlled impact in most freq's, that provide the detail depth and clarity for someone that's interested in musicallity of the sound instead of it's audible capabilities.


----------



## leorbolato

Here it is,

Using the same 2.1 cuft box, we have:

Red = 2 ohm version
Yellow = 4 ohm version



Which is your opinion about their differences?


----------



## oemplusmore

subwoofery said:


> Strange... You're using a class D on your front stage and class A/B on your sub
> 
> Kelvin


I haven't even installed the hd600/4 and the type x pro's yet. I am also thinking about using a Pioneer premier Prs-d4200f amp on the type x's. It's a really nice sounding powerful class FD. I picked it up new for $200. I may then sell the HD600/4. The Pioneer's footprint is only an inch wider and a smidge taller. I really can't imagine the JL sounding any better. You know how this hobby is, constantly tinkering, there are so many options.

Curiously, the Class A/B Arc 2500xxk seems to be more efficient than my old Class D jl 500/1v1 slash. My lights dim less with more output at loud volume than before. They say the slash series were not that efficient, now I believe it. 

It was hard to find 1,000 watt power into 4ohms @ an affordable price when i was shopping around. Looking to get the hd1200/1 when it finally comes out. I like the fact that it has the option for independent volume control for the amp w/the optional knob. I'm starting to think the hd750/1 may be enough power for this sub. The Ultimo is more sensitive than i first believed. 750 watts is a lot into any one sub. More power than i probably need for everyday listening. 

Overall like I said before, I am really pleased with my Ultimo. I actually bought the Ultimo and Arc from the person that started this thread. Thanks again, Shiv. He was very helpful. 

Now that my sub-bass section is perfect, at least part of the puzzle is complete.


----------



## Buzzman

leorbolato said:


> Here it is,
> 
> Using the same 2.1 cuft box, we have:
> 
> Red = 2 ohm version
> Yellow = 4 ohm version
> 
> 
> 
> Which is your opinion about their differences?


I cannot read all of the data at the bottom of your page, but something appears wrong in either case. Your F3 should not be so high. You should see an F3 of around 46 Hz with the Qtc measurements you are showing in your data. And, with an enclosure of 2.1 cubic feet, you should be showing a Qtc of around .6, not the .456 or .47 you are showing. The Ultimo's T/S parameters, for either the 4 Ohm or the 2 Ohm version should result in an enclosure volume of 5-6 cubic feet with the Qtc measurements shown in your data. Are you sure you input the correct data?


----------



## leorbolato

Buzzman said:


> I cannot read all of the data at the bottom of your page, but something appears wrong in either case. Your F3 should not be so high. You should see an F3 of around 46 Hz with the Qtc measurements you are showing in your data. And, with an enclosure of 2.1 cubic feet, you should be showing a Qtc of around .6, not the .456 or .47 you are showing. The Ultimo's T/S parameters, for either the 4 Ohm or the 2 Ohm version should result in an enclosure volume of 5-6 cubic feet with the Qtc measurements shown in your data. Are you sure you input the correct data?


I am sending it with the complete parameters. The only things that i´ve changed were the Box fill ratio from "Heavy to None".


I´ve noticed that when i do not use the BL parameter, they seem close:


----------



## Mooble

I just heard a properly tuned car with two IDQ12 V2s and I can say that the sub bass was NOTHING like that of the Ultimo. The IDQ is another highly regarded SQ sub and it cannot compare in the slightest to what I love in the Ultimo.

This is not midbass integration. 

This is not frequency response, EQ, or size of the enclosure.

It is the actual sound the Ultimo produces and nothing else. The Ultimo is hands down the best sub for my taste that I have ever heard. That includes the Esotar 1200 which I also played around with this weekend.

There is nothing complicated about this. Drop in Hotel California off Hell Freezes Over. Does the sub hit the sub bass note and then reverberate for the next second? If so, you aren't hearing an Ultimo. If, on the other hand, the note is struck and almost immediately it is silent again, you've got an Ultimo. This has nothing to do with frequency. I can boost the frequency all day long in my car, but 40hz on an Ultimo will never sound like 40hz on an IDQ.

I couldn't care less if anyone else likes the Ultimo. I've found my sonic Nirvana. What I won't stand for is someone saying that the Ultimo doesn't sound different. All you need are functioning ears to tell the difference. The difference is night and day. If it's not in the specs, then someone needs to tell me what else is responsible for the clearly identifiable difference in sound.


----------



## DAT

Mooble said:


> I just heard a properly tuned car with two IDQ12 V2s and I can say that the sub bass was NOTHING like that of the Ultimo. The IDQ is another highly regarded SQ sub and it cannot compare in the slightest to what I love in the Ultimo.
> 
> This is not midbass integration.
> 
> This is not frequency response, EQ, or size of the enclosure.
> 
> It is the actual sound the Ultimo produces and nothing else. The Ultimo is hands down the best sub for my taste that I have ever heard. That includes the Esotar 1200 which I also played around with this weekend.
> 
> There is nothing complicated about this. Drop in Hotel California off Hell Freezes Over. Does the sub hit the sub bass note and then reverberate for the next second? If so, you aren't hearing an Ultimo. If, on the other hand, the note is struck and almost immediately it is silent again, you've got an Ultimo. This has nothing to do with frequency. I can boost the frequency all day long in my car, but 40hz on an Ultimo will never sound like 40hz on an IDQ.
> 
> I couldn't care less if anyone else likes the Ultimo. I've found my sonic Nirvana. What I won't stand for is someone saying that the Ultimo doesn't sound different. All you need are functioning ears to tell the difference. The difference is night and day. If it's not in the specs, then someone needs to tell me what else is responsible for the clearly identifiable difference in sound.


I agree with Mooble.. while the IDQ V2 subs are excellent subs, the Ultimo is just one step better... I currently have a Esotar 1200 also I'm playing with I like it also as much as the Ultimo maybe more we shall see.

If you like slop Bass get something besides an Ultimo or Esotar 1200.


----------



## Mooble

DAT said:


> I agree with Mooble.. while the IDQ V2 subs are excellent subs, the Ultimo is just one step better...


I'd say it's several rungs higher on the ladder. 

The Dayton HO is closer in sound, but it doesn't get as low and it's not as smooth. The Boston G5 is even closer to the Ultimo, but the most similar sound I've heard is the TC OEM. The IDQ V2 wasn't even close.


----------



## bassfromspace

Mooble said:


> I just heard a properly tuned car with two IDQ12 V2s and I can say that the sub bass was NOTHING like that of the Ultimo. The IDQ is another highly regarded SQ sub and it cannot compare in the slightest to what I love in the Ultimo.
> 
> This is not midbass integration.
> 
> This is not frequency response, EQ, or size of the enclosure.
> 
> It is the actual sound the Ultimo produces and nothing else. The Ultimo is hands down the best sub for my taste that I have ever heard. That includes the Esotar 1200 which I also played around with this weekend.
> 
> There is nothing complicated about this. Drop in Hotel California off Hell Freezes Over. Does the sub hit the sub bass note and then reverberate for the next second? If so, you aren't hearing an Ultimo. If, on the other hand, the note is struck and almost immediately it is silent again, you've got an Ultimo. This has nothing to do with frequency. I can boost the frequency all day long in my car, but 40hz on an Ultimo will never sound like 40hz on an IDQ.
> 
> I couldn't care less if anyone else likes the Ultimo. I've found my sonic Nirvana. What I won't stand for is someone saying that the Ultimo doesn't sound different. All you need are functioning ears to tell the difference. The difference is night and day. If it's not in the specs, then someone needs to tell me what else is responsible for the clearly identifiable difference in sound.


So the Ultimo lacks low end?


----------



## Mooble

bassfromspace said:


> So it lacks low end?


Not hardly. Ears and RTA prove that. It gets incredibly low with a large sealed enclosure 1.8 cubes + fill in my case. I wasn't saying that I needed to boost anything. I was negating any argument that the Ultimo lacks output and that if you boosted the EQ it would sound like other subs. Our sub shootout RTA results show that the Ultimo isn't light in the loafers.

What it doesn't do is flop around after hitting a note. It hits and stops. No sloppy reverberating bass. That sounds good in a club or a movie theater, but not in my car.


----------



## Buzzman

bassfromspace said:


> So the Ultimo lacks low end?


Absolutely not. I will say it again: The Ultimo reproduces bass with a level of precision I have not experienced with any other subwoofer. You don't have the artifacts (i.e., distortion) you get with other subwoofers that most listeners construe as an essential component of bass reproduction. With the Ultimo, the bass reproduction is so clean and detailed, that those who are used to hearing bass reproduced with "fatness" etc. will think that the Ultimo lacks bass output. Far from it. The musical information is there, and you hear it and feel it. The Ultimo simply offers a level of low level resolution and transparency that will cause you to redefine how you listen to bass in recordings as it reveals nuances and details that get masked by the other subwoofers I have used and heard.


----------



## Buzzman

DAT said:


> . . . If you like slop Bass get something besides an Ultimo or Esotar 1200.


I think it's about time we shift the message and not tell people if you like "slop bass" get another sub. The message should be "if you wish to hear what real, natural bass, with exquisite detail and resolution sounds like, get an Ultimo."


----------



## mmiller

Mooble said:


> Not hardly. Ears and RTA prove that. It gets incredibly low with a large sealed enclosure 1.8 cubes + fill in my case. I wasn't saying that I needed to boost anything. I was negating any argument that the Ultimo lacks output and that if you boosted the EQ it would sound like other subs. Our sub shootout RTA results show that the Ultimo isn't light in the loafers.
> 
> What it doesn't do is flop around after hitting a note. It hits and stops. No sloppy reverberating bass. That sounds good in a club or a movie theater, but not in my car.


whats your subs xover points???


----------



## DAT

mmiller said:


> whats your subs xover points???


Matt,

this is the best sub I've heard use.. i had mine x/over at 60hz

best in blending with front stage... Dyna Esotar2 1200 was same way.. JLw6, and W7, All ID subs, and many more... while some of these were great subs the Ultimo is clearly dominate.


----------



## mmiller

I really need to audition this puppy.....


----------



## 6spdcoupe

DAT said:


> Matt,
> 
> this is the best sub I've heard use.. i had mine x/over at 60hz
> 
> best in blending with front stage... Dyna Esotar2 1200 was same way.. JLw6, and W7, All ID subs, and many more... while some of these were great subs the Ultimo is clearly dominate.


For clarification here .. The Esotar is below the Ultimo and in the ranks of the JL/ID mix ?


----------



## DAT

6spdcoupe said:


> For clarification here .. The Esotar is below the Ultimo and in the ranks of the JL/ID mix ?


No I meant the Esotar 1200 was just as good blending with front stage as the Ultimo was....

Borrowed a 1200 and still playing around with it...so far very nice...


----------



## Buzzman

Hot Flash - Check out my recent post in the "Hot Deals" section about a Morel blowout sale. He has Ultimo 10s available, at a ridiculous price.


----------



## M-Dub




----------



## Buzzman

:laugh: That's funny. Or, is it a work of art?


----------



## DAT

your crazy man... they are truly great subs


----------



## SkodaTeam

DAT said:


> Matt,
> 
> this is the best sub I've heard use.. i had mine x/over at 60hz
> 
> best in blending with front stage... Dyna Esotar2 1200 was same way.. JLw6, and W7, All ID subs, and many more... while some of these were great subs the Ultimo is clearly dominate.



Anyone have chance, to compare Ultimo 12 with Phase Aliante 12? I have listened lot of subs, and so far the Ali 12 is more faster, acurate and transperant than any other for me. But. A never heard Ultimo 12


----------



## DAT

SkodaTeam said:


> Anyone have chance, to compare Ultimo 12 with Phase Aliante 12? I have listened lot of subs, and so far the Ali 12 is more faster, acurate and transperant than any other for me. But. A never heard Ultimo 12


If you have a Phase Aliante 12" keep it - it's Rare and hard to find and the sound is outstanding.. the major difference between the two for me is the Ultimo takes more power and gets louder..


Sound is very similar...


----------



## SkodaTeam

Thanks for the advise, of course i will keep it as lons as it play  I was just curious about how they compare to each other. I am from Bulgaria and to buy this sub, decided to travell to another country \Romania\, because there was one Aliante for sale... :surprised: I am prety sure mine is the only one in BG.


----------



## P_4SPL

SkodaTeam said:


> Thanks for the advise, of course i will keep it as lons as it play  I was just curious about how they compare to each other. I am from Bulgaria and to buy this sub, decided to travell to another country \Romania\, because there was one Aliante for sale... :surprised: I am prety sure mine is the only one in BG.


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/385985

I used to own a 15" Aliante with an accordian type surround> Was a rare design I found a dealer in the U.S that carried one. Kept it for a year then sold it.

This is definatly not an SPL sub...the accordion surround made this sub sound more musical than a regular foam surround. Fast impact in the upper octaves above 80HZ ~ though it lacked decent 50-70hz output. 

Bass output @ 30HZ was believable, due to the trunk acting as a larger enslosure> I actually played the subs up to 500HZ and they blended transparantly with the front stage with no localization effects from the higher octaves at all. They enforced the higher freq's with dynamic impact and musical clarity. I definatly have to stress how musical they sounded.

I threw them into a sealed 2 cube box and didn't have the best results, the subs hardly moved even with 500W RMS?

I ended up selling them because I was looking for a little more SPL, but thought I'd try an AP enclosure set-up to actrually see how it performs. I've concluded it's the same as having a IB/free-air set-up but utilizing the membrane with the box design helps dampen the subs output at lower freq's so it doesn't bottom out due to the extra large enclosure of the trunk acting as a box on the sub. 

I can definatly say that a sub with a foam surround * Morel Ultimo will sound 10X better musically in an AP set-up, the higher bass freq's will have quicker transients because the AP membrane allows them to react with the air of the trunk with less resistance than they would if they where boxed or ported, so you hear the pluck of the bass guitar and feel it in the lower octaves as well.

I'm planning on purchasing 2 Ultimo's for a Home Theatre project, and will specifically be using them for adding a more musical flavor to the front end instead of implying them just for bass heavy response.














http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3859891


----------



## DAT

P_4SPL said:


> http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3859891


Nice sub,..... is that spray foam ?


----------



## Buzzman

SkodaTeam said:


> Thanks for the advise, of course i will keep it as lons as it play  I was just curious about how they compare to each other. I am from Bulgaria and to buy this sub, decided to travell to another country \Romania\, because there was one Aliante for sale... :surprised: I am prety sure mine is the only one in BG.


And I see you have implemented an aperiodic sealed enclosure.  Smart move. That sub is ideal for such an application. In fact, I am putting one together for a customer of mine in Colombia, South America.


----------



## Bluenote

Buzzman said:


> And I see you have implemented an aperiodic sealed enclosure.  Smart move. That sub is ideal for such an application. In fact, I am putting one together for a customer of mine in Colombia, South America.


Hey Buzzman, last night I got a chance to view your set up on CAE! That looks like an awesome set up. My question is with A-periodic enclosures do you need to have a lot of open space behind the enclosure? Example: If I had an Ultimo or two facing upward in the spare tire well would it defeat the purpose and function of the an A-periodic design? I've read the posts on Aperiodic designs but did not see anything specific about this...

Thanks!

Bluenote


----------



## Buzzman

Bluenote said:


> Hey Buzzman, last night I got a chance to view your set up on CAE! That looks like an awesome set up. My question is with A-periodic enclosures do you need to have a lot of open space behind the enclosure? Example: If I had an Ultimo or two facing upward in the spare tire well would it defeat the purpose and function of the an A-periodic design? I've read the posts on Aperiodic designs but did not see anything specific about this...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bluenote


In order to properly execute an aperiodic sealed application, you MUST separate the front wave from the back wave. So, if you are able to build an enclosure into your spare tire well, you will need to have a baffle that separates the front of the enclosure from the rear of the enclosure, and seal it off. Now, the area behind the aperiodic mat basically becomes an extension of the enclosure to which the mat is mounted, and you will want some nominal amount of air space. I have been told by those more expert in this than I am that 2-3 cubic feet should suffice. I doubt you will be able to accommodate that in a spare tire well. If you are contemplating an aperiodic enclosure, it does not make sense to me to contemplate using your spare tire well. One of the benefits of these kinds of enclosures (other than sonics) is that they allow you to retain the vast majority of your trunk space with minimal modification. So, why not keep your spare tire where it is and mount the enclosure either behind the rear seats, firing into the cabin, or up through the rear deck?


----------



## P_4SPL

Bluenote said:


> Hey Buzzman, last night I got a chance to view your set up on CAE! That looks like an awesome set up. My question is with A-periodic enclosures do you need to have a lot of open space behind the enclosure? Example: If I had an Ultimo or two facing upward in the spare tire well would it defeat the purpose and function of the an A-periodic design? I've read the posts on Aperiodic designs but did not see anything specific about this...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bluenote


AP would not work well in the spare tire well> Unless you cut the bottom out and let it vent into the outside, as in an older Car mag install had done> The pupose of AP setup is to use the entire trunk as a box for the sub, this is IMO only for better low freq'y extention providing the sub with deeper bass without the need for a large box enclosure> The AP matt prevents the sub from bottoming out when pushing lower freq's and provides resistance to the subs mechanical parts so they behave like they are in a normal box. Thus due to the small enclosure the sub is fit into for an AP set-up, it behaves like a super-midbass but is also capable of extending the lower octaves as well. Reproducing the entire sub freq range mimically like in regular full size enclosure, without using all your trunk space/compartment to achieve the same acoustic results.


----------



## Bluenote

Wow, thanks Buzzman and 4spl for your insightful comments! I really like the small enclosure on those AP's! I have some sort of tension rods running across the bottom of my rear deck for the trunk lid, and my rear seats can fold down. Initially, I wanted to retain full functionality in the trunk ( minus the spare) I will give some more time to thoroughly explore this option.

thanks again!

Bluenote


----------



## t3sn4f2

Bluenote said:


> Wow, thanks Buzzman and 4spl for your insightful comments! I really like the small enclosure on those AP's! I have some sort of tension rods running across the bottom of my rear deck for the trunk lid, and my rear seats can fold down. Initially, I wanted to retain full functionality in the trunk ( minus the spare) I will give some more time to thoroughly explore this option.
> 
> thanks again!
> 
> Bluenote


If you want all the trunk space and don't mind loosing the spare then ditch the spare and the AP, and make the right sized sealed box using all the tire well space.


----------



## chad

What's the right size for one of these?


----------



## t3sn4f2

chad said:


> What's the right size for one of these?


Big enough


----------



## chad

how long is a piece of string?


----------



## Bluenote

t3sn4f2,

Thanks for the input. That was my initial plan and I still have to see how much air space I have in there with the spare out. I plan to run 2 12's / if not I guess I can settle for two 10's.


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

If you don't have room for two like myself, how about 2 Esotar2 1200? More $ but less amp power and space required!


----------



## t3sn4f2

JDMRB1ODY said:


> If you don't have room for two like myself, how about 2 Esotar2 1200? *More $ but less amp power and space required!*


Doesn't that defy the laws of physics? Greater efficiency in a smaller box?


----------



## JDMRB1ODY

> Doesn't that defy the laws of physics? Greater efficiency in a smaller box?


Not everyone has room for a 4 cf box to run 2 ultimo's. One Ultimo or 2 1200 with a 2.5 box, I'll take the 1200's. plus you don't need 2000 watts !


----------



## rain27

Mooble said:


> I just heard a properly tuned car with two IDQ12 V2s and I can say that the sub bass was NOTHING like that of the Ultimo. The IDQ is another highly regarded SQ sub and it cannot compare in the slightest to what I love in the Ultimo.
> 
> This is not midbass integration.
> 
> This is not frequency response, EQ, or size of the enclosure.
> 
> It is the actual sound the Ultimo produces and nothing else. The Ultimo is hands down the best sub for my taste that I have ever heard. That includes the Esotar 1200 which I also played around with this weekend.
> 
> There is nothing complicated about this. Drop in Hotel California off Hell Freezes Over. Does the sub hit the sub bass note and then reverberate for the next second? If so, you aren't hearing an Ultimo. If, on the other hand, the note is struck and almost immediately it is silent again, you've got an Ultimo. This has nothing to do with frequency. I can boost the frequency all day long in my car, but 40hz on an Ultimo will never sound like 40hz on an IDQ.
> 
> I couldn't care less if anyone else likes the Ultimo. I've found my sonic Nirvana. What I won't stand for is someone saying that the Ultimo doesn't sound different. All you need are functioning ears to tell the difference. The difference is night and day. If it's not in the specs, then someone needs to tell me what else is responsible for the clearly identifiable difference in sound.


What in your opinion separates the Ultimo from the Esotar 1200? I've played around with Dynaudio's best, but never heard the Ultimo.


----------



## Mooble

rain27 said:


> What in your opinion separates the Ultimo from the Esotar 1200? I've played around with Dynaudio's best, but never heard the Ultimo.


It's a little tough to say because the car I heard also had 9" midbasses in the door that went down to 40hz I think. It was hard to separate the two. I am hoping to get an Esotar II in our sub shootout so that we can isolate it. It was also an IB installation. It just didn't get as low as I would have liked.


----------



## DAT

Mooble said:


> It's a little tough to say because the car I heard also had 9" midbasses in the door that went down to 40hz I think. It was hard to separate the two. I am hoping to get an Esotar II in our sub shootout so that we can isolate it. It was also an IB installation. It just didn't get as low as I would have liked.


I'm currently using a Esotar 2 12 right now, but I don't think I can take it out to let you guys test it. 

But I do have a Dynaudio 12 for HT ( 30WS75 - Sub 500 ) that the Esotar2 was created from. I actually like the 30WS75 just as well if not better. they have similar specs... and same size cutout... but bigger magnet

Dynaudio - Authentic Fidelity

but it really would not help anyone as they only let 3 or 4 of these go without the sub500 box.

You would have to take it out of the SUB500 box ( $2000 )


----------



## quality_sound

I've heard the 1200 in two cars and it's beyond compare, IMO.


----------



## Knobby Digital

Mooble said:


> It's a little tough to say because the car I heard also had 9" midbasses in the door that went down to 40hz I think. It was hard to separate the two. I am hoping to get an Esotar II in our sub shootout so that we can isolate it. It was also an IB installation. It just didn't get as low as I would have liked.


The sub was X'd at 40hz and it didn't go low?


----------



## Mooble

Knobby Digital said:


> The sub was X'd at 40hz and it didn't go low?


No, I think the midbasses were passed at 40hz so a lot of my sub bass cues were coming from up front.


----------



## fahrfrompuken

My car is spending the night at the shop while they mold my sub box. Sub amp is here so they can hook it up right away. Front stage has been shipped and the amp for the highs has been ordered as well. I can't wait to hear it all. I hope that Ultimo SC performs like its big brother.


----------



## invinsible

quality_sound said:


> I've heard the 1200 in two cars and it's beyond compare, IMO.


What's the sound characteristic difference between Ultimo & 1200 ?


----------



## quality_sound

I think the 1200 has a little more impact and a little less overhang. Granted both of those traits can be affected by the enclosure quite a bit. I don't think you can really go wrong with either but I like the 1200, but mostly because I'm more familiar with it. I also have found I don't really like woven cones much.


----------



## spidey

Hi. Have the supremo piccolo, Cdm 88, hcw 6.5, and an ultimo 12 in the boot in a 2cbic ft sealed box, in an Alfa Gtv. HU us a Nakamichi cd400 & the system driven by an audison lrx 4.1k. Sub integration a bit of a prob. Amp xover at 50hz for sub & midbass. 3 way passives on the front stage as well. Any recommendations to help integration? Time alignment?


----------



## nautilus

Get a processor, like the bit one, all problems will be solve eventually.

Hope it helps.
http://www.audison.eu/index_main.php?Section=FEATUREBITONE

The nak HU you are using, I believe does have a sub out, unless you have a active crossover e.g Audiocontrol 2xs line driver, cheapest option to go with, and just add a LPL for your sub control.


----------



## subwoofery

spidey said:


> Hi. Have the supremo piccolo, Cdm 88, hcw 6.5, and an ultimo 12 in the boot in a 2cbic ft sealed box, in an Alfa Gtv. HU us a Nakamichi cd400 & the system driven by an audison lrx 4.1k. Sub integration a bit of a prob. Amp xover at 50hz for sub & midbass. 3 way passives on the front stage as well. Any recommendations to help integration? Time alignment?


T/A will help or you can try to find a phase adjuster, something that can do 0-180° like most subwoofer amp have. 

Kelvin


----------



## duckymcse

Base on the suggestion from Darinof and Buzzman to go for a bigger box size for the Ultimo 12" and the result is stunning!
I went from 1.4cuft sealed to 2.0cuft sealed and power the sub by JL HD750/1 amp with just only 750W rms.
By going to a bigger box, I can felt the lower bass note is deeper and stronger. Distortion appear to be less especially at higher volume.
The bass just felt more cleaner than before.
Hope this help for those thinking of getting the Ultimo 12 and what box size to go with it.


----------



## nautilus

You may want to try this option to maximize the woofer in order to bring out all the bass within the box. 
1) Add activated granule carbon on all side of woofer box

http://www.kef.com/en/technology/ace

2) Pod it.

Result > Ultra clean subsonics bass, tight and accurate.


----------



## t3sn4f2

nautilus said:


> You may want to try this option to maximize the woofer in order to bring out all the bass within the box.
> *1) Add activated granule carbon on all side of woofer box
> 
> KEF International*2) Pod it.
> 
> Result > Ultra clean subsonics bass, tight and accurate.


I'd love to see some before and after measurements.


----------



## duckymcse

The ACE material looks interesting.
Wat do you mean by "Pot it"?



nautilus said:


> You may want to try this option to maximize the woofer in order to bring out all the bass within the box.
> 1) Add activated granule carbon on all side of woofer box
> 
> KEF International
> 
> 2) Pod it.
> 
> Result > Ultra clean subsonics bass, tight and accurate.


----------



## nautilus

Just an example >


Basic Theory

Also known as bass-reflex, ported or vented. The driver is mounted into an enclosure which houses a large opening, port, vent or slot that extends into the cabinet a specified length. The length and area of this vent are extremely critical to the proper function of a 4th order enclosure. The port and driver contribute together to provide the desired response characteristic. The driver is generally mounted with the front facing outwards, but is not restricted to this method only. The vent which extends into the cabinet tunes the enclosure to a specific frequency (known as fB) thereby acting as a high pass filter on the driver. Driver excursion is at its minimum at fB where the vent then takes over and provides most of the output. Cut-off rate below fB is 24 dB/octave but can be varied up or down 5-6 dB depending upon the exact tuning frequency and volume of the enclosure. There are various types of alignments that all fit into the ported 4th order category. Some common types are QB3, EBS, SBB4 and SC4. By varying the enclosure size and the tuning frequency, it is possible to achieve a variety of distinct low- frequency performances from a single driver. The vent acts by damping the load produced by the driver above fB causing it to behave somewhat as if it were in a sealed enclosure. Best suited for drivers with an EBP near 100.0 or higher and Qts < 4.0 but is not restricted to these numbers only. 
Advantages Extended low frequency response. 3 dB down points (f3) are capable of being near or even below 20 Hz. Increased power handling above fB due to reduced driver excursion at and while nearing fB. More efficient system. Generally 3dB increased output over sealed enclosures due to the combined output of driver and port. More overall SPL capabilities. Deep, powerful, full, loud, inspiring, incredible, and earth shattering are common subjective terms associated with vented enclosures. 
Disadvantages Larger enclosure size. More difficult to accurately achieve predicted results. Misaligned enclosures can result in very poor bass quality. Very accurate T/S parameters of actual driver is required. Although sometimes you can get away with using manufacture’s specifications. Driver unloading or bottoming out below fB is very common. Xmax is reached easily below fB and may cause sever damage the the driver's suspension, voice coil or cone. This usually requires the need to install additional high pass filtering below fB. But is not a always a necessity as long as power levels and frequency content are kept within reason. Transient response is degraded, yielding typical group delay curves as high as 50 ms. Muggy, boomy, sluggish, one-note, slow, and inaccurate are common subjective terms associated with vented enclosures. Port diameter must be large to avoid unwanted port noise, which in turn requires the port to be long for any given Fb, which then drives up the volume of the enclosure, sometimes to undesirably large proportions. Port chuffing if port area is not kept in check.

http://www.kef.com/resources/whitepapers/ace.pdf


----------



## ehaze

true or false.

the sub can only be warrantied by a brick n mortar dealer?


----------



## nautilus

You mean using C4 ? :laugh::laugh:


----------



## ehaze

No stupid, *TNT*, gosh!


----------



## quickaudi07

Where in the world can you buy that sub, I'm big SQ guy... 

By reading 19 pages of thread, it sounds really impressive


----------



## ehaze

Morel Loudspeakers - Dealer Locator

Are any forum members authorized dealers?


----------



## DAT

ehaze said:


> Morel Loudspeakers - Dealer Locator
> 
> Are any forum members authorized dealers?


*Unexpected Creations
Don
25 Wisteria Street
Edison, New Jersey
08817
Tel. 732-572-1969*


contact him on here as *6spdcoupe* He is alright...


----------



## Xmaximum

I ve been running the Ultimo for little over 3 months now. 
Although i ve used and heared subs from many brands, like JBL (GT5-S12), Blaupunkt (Velocity), Ground Zero (Titanium), Boston (G5), Focal (25A1), Image Dynamics (IDQV2), Nakamichi (SPW1210), Infinity (Ref, Kappa), JL (12W3), Kicker and MTX, this is my first high end sub. 

The Difference is like Black and White. Its got a 1.3 cu.ft custom made FG enclosure and is powered by an Alpine PDX-M12. 
I am giving her some nice 1200 rms @ 2ohm and running her at LPF 63Hz @ 18db slope. The Sub is so non-existent. The Bass get very very low, however the best aspect about the ultimo is its quickness in getting back to its position after playing a note. Its so bloody fast and quick that it makes a whole lot of difference when compared with other Subs. The Sound itself is so different when you hear it. Just love this thingy so much. I am sure it is has set some very high standards internationally too. 

If i am lucky, i may get an audition of the Audison Thesis Sub, the Lotus Ref Sub and the DynAudio Esotar 1200 very soon. Probably then i can give a good comparsion on where the Ultimo stands against these biggies.


----------



## Salad Fingers

ehaze said:


> Morel Loudspeakers - Dealer Locator
> 
> Are any forum members authorized dealers?


Right here.


----------



## duckymcse

Put it in a bigger enclosure and you will love it even more.
So, did you get a chance to compare it to other high end sub you mention below?



Xmaximum said:


> The Difference is like Black and White. Its got a 1.3 cu.ft custom made FG enclosure and is powered by an Alpine PDX-M12.
> I am giving her some nice 1200 rms @ 2ohm and running her at LPF 63Hz @ 18db slope. The Sub is so non-existent. The Bass get very very low, however the best aspect about the ultimo is its quickness in getting back to its position after playing a note. Its so bloody fast and quick that it makes a whole lot of difference when compared with other Subs. The Sound itself is so different when you hear it. Just love this thingy so much. I am sure it is has set some very high standards internationally too.
> 
> If i am lucky, i may get an audition of the Audison Thesis Sub, the Lotus Ref Sub and the DynAudio Esotar 1200 very soon. Probably then i can give a good comparsion on where the Ultimo stands against these biggies.


----------



## Xmaximum

duckymcse said:


> Put it in a bigger enclosure and you will love it even more.
> So, did you get a chance to compare it to other high end sub you mention below?


Not yet, Hope do get the audition before May .

Here is my Build Log: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ctive-setup-eclipse-morel-genesis-alpine.html


----------



## vidizzle

so how does the sc compare to its big brother? is it truely worth it to dig deep in the pockets and get the ultimo over the sc


----------



## crxsir121

Whats the recommended box size for the Ultimo 10??? Thinking two 10's would fit my application


----------



## subwoofery

crxsir121 said:


> Whats the recommended box size for the Ultimo 10??? Thinking two 10's would fit my application


It's written in the manual. 

Kelvin


----------



## fahrfrompuken

crxsir121 said:


> Whats the recommended box size for the Ultimo 10??? Thinking two 10's would fit my application


Do yourself a favor and do NOT go off what the manual says. I had my Ultimo 12 SC in a box the size the specs in the manual says (0.988 cuft sealed). Some guys in the Austin area heard my system and said there was no bottom end and I agree with them on that. It was all midbass no real lower reach. I just installed it into a box that is 1.65 cuft sealed and it now my bottom end has risen from the dead. Halleluja!

Most of the guys I have talked to say to put the Ultimo 12 in a box that is 1.8 to 1.9 cuft sealed and when I get time I think I will build a box that is 1.8 cuft in volume and see how it sounds.

It's hard work, but I love playing with this stuff... don't you?


----------



## Buzzman

vidizzle said:


> so how does the sc compare to its big brother? is it truely worth it to dig deep in the pockets and get the ultimo over the sc


Read the thread. This has been discussed already.


----------



## Buzzman

fahrfrompuken said:


> Do yourself a favor and do NOT go off what the manual says. I had my Ultimo 12 SC in a box the size the specs in the manual says (0.988 cuft sealed). Some guys in the Austin area heard my system and said there was no bottom end and I agree with them on that. It was all midbass no real lower reach. I just installed it into a box that is 1.65 cuft sealed and it now my bottom end has risen from the dead. Halleluja!
> 
> Most of the guys I have talked to say to put the Ultimo 12 in a box that is 1.8 to 1.9 cuft sealed and when I get time I think I will build a box that is 1.8 cuft in volume and see how it sounds.
> 
> It's hard work, but I love playing with this stuff... don't you?


Actually, the manual is right on. It offers frequency response plots for different sized sealed and ported enclosures, and depending on your space limitations and sonic objectives, you should follow them. Personally, I prefer the results from the largest enclosure recommended. See attached. The SC version requires slightly smaller enclosures than the regular Ultimo. In your case, I would not incur the expense of building a larger enclosure as you are pretty close to the largest recommended size already. I would simply add a fair amount of fiberglass or polyfill loosely inside the enclosure so that the woofer is fooled into responding as though it were in a larger enclosure, and you can then decide what result you prefer.


----------



## quickaudi07

This might be a silly question, but how does this sub compare to 12" IDMAX?


----------



## Buzzman

quickaudi07 said:


> This might be a silly question, but how does this sub compare to 12" IDMAX?


Well, it's not really a "silly question," but if you took the time to read the thread, or do a search of the thread for "idmax," you would have found some comments on this.  Hint, look on page 12. But, read the entire thread if you are at all interested in learning about this outstanding sub and wish to avoid asking silly questions.


----------



## subwoofery

quickaudi07 said:


> This might be a silly question, but how does this sub compare to 12" IDMAX?


Discussed already, please do a search on the forum. 

Kelvin


----------



## fahrfrompuken

Buzzman said:


> Actually, the manual is right on. It offers frequency response plots for different sized sealed and ported enclosures, and depending on your space limitations and sonic objectives, you should follow them. Personally, I prefer the results from the largest enclosure recommended. See attached. The SC version requires slightly smaller enclosures than the regular Ultimo. In your case, I would not incur the expense of building a larger enclosure as you are pretty close to the largest recommended size already. I would simply add a fair amount of fiberglass or polyfill loosely inside the enclosure so that the woofer is fooled into responding as though it were in a larger enclosure, and you can then decide what result you prefer.


I do have one bag of polyfill in the box already. How much do you recommend?


----------



## fahrfrompuken

vidizzle said:


> so how does the sc compare to its big brother? is it truely worth it to dig deep in the pockets and get the ultimo over the sc


That is a question that I am still trying to answer. Many of the guys run their subs so low in output to have them blend seamlessly with the rest of the system. Their goal is SQ and purely SQ. That is my goal too, but every once in a while I feel the need to get back to the old days and do some cranking and feel the bass.

Though I am happy with the SQ of the sub I do not know how it will hang with other subs discussed here when you really put on the power. I bought an amp that will fully drive anything I want just in case. Not only that, but if gives me plenty of headroom as I have 1100 watts of pure Class A/B heaven at my disposal. I hope to be able to do an A/B comparison soon on the Ultimo vs SC to see the difference.

If anyone in the Austin area wants to do the same and has an Ultimo 12 that we can do some swapping on one day, let me know.


----------



## Buzzman

fahrfrompuken said:


> I do have one bag of polyfill in the box already. How much do you recommend?


Please read this classic article by Tom Nousaine: 

http://nousaine.com/pdfs/Box Stuffing.pdf

It's quite enlightening. I suggest you follow the guidelines in Tom's article and simply experiment till you get the performance that pleases you most.


----------



## Salad Fingers

Buzzman said:


> Please read this classic article by Tom Nousaine:
> 
> http://nousaine.com/pdfs/Box Stuffing.pdf
> 
> It's quite enlightening. I suggest you follow the guidelines in Tom's article and simply experiment till you get the performance that pleases you most.


Nice, NICE article. Thank you for that!!!


----------



## vidizzle

ok because of you guys and reading 20 pages of reviews i forked out the cash for an ultimo 12 4ohm will get it here on thursday.. was initially planning on the sc12 which is almost half the price i figured ill dig deep just incase because i dont wanna miss a thing.. i already drive a 3series bmw and wish i had the m3 instead lol
.. will be fed by my zed kronos which is [email protected]

and i was thinking of getting a box of 1.2 lined with polyfill to go with the manual.. but after all the orgasmic reviews ive heard of the ultimo being in a 2 cubic feet ill try that as luckily for me i got said size box

and ill be switching from an idmax 12 also.. 

rest of my system is morel 6elates 3way upfront and tempo coaxials for rearfill or whenever i just want my system stupid loud


----------



## Buzzman

vidizzle said:


> ok because of you guys and reading 20 pages of reviews i forked out the cash for an ultimo 12 4ohm will get it here on thursday.. was initially planning on the sc12 which is almost half the price i figured ill dig deep just incase because i dont wanna miss a thing.. i already drive a 3series bmw and wish i had the m3 instead lol
> .. will be fed by my zed kronos which is [email protected]
> 
> and i was thinking of getting a box of 1.2 lined with polyfill to go with the manual.. but after all the orgasmic reviews ive heard of the ultimo being in a 2 cubic feet ill try that as luckily for me i got said size box
> 
> and ill be switching from an idmax 12 also..
> 
> rest of my system is morel 6elates 3way upfront and tempo coaxials for rearfill or whenever i just want my system stupid loud


:thumbsup::thumbsup: Welcome to the Ultimo family. You are doing it the right way and will not be disappointed. Get ready to see yourself looking like this every time you look in the rear view mirror.


----------



## subwoofery

Buzzman said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup: Welcome to the Ultimo family. You are doing it the right way and will not be disappointed. Get ready to see yourself looking like this every time you look in the rear view mirror.


As long as you don't see that in the rear view mirror... 









Then you're fine  

Kelvin


----------



## duckymcse

If you going to put the Ultimo 12 in a 2.0cuft box, don't use polyfill.
Last time my voicecoil blown, the tech guy at Morel ask me did I use polyfill.
I didn't use polyfill, not sure why the voicecoil got blown.
Luckily, the recone kit was so easy to replace. But, it does cost me $250!!!
Congrat on your Ultimo 12  It should be fun to listen to it.



vidizzle said:


> ok because of you guys and reading 20 pages of reviews i forked out the cash for an ultimo 12 4ohm will get it here on thursday.. was initially planning on the sc12 which is almost half the price i figured ill dig deep just incase because i dont wanna miss a thing.. i already drive a 3series bmw and wish i had the m3 instead lol
> .. will be fed by my zed kronos which is [email protected]
> 
> and i was thinking of getting a box of 1.2 lined with polyfill to go with the manual.. but after all the orgasmic reviews ive heard of the ultimo being in a 2 cubic feet ill try that as luckily for me i got said size box
> 
> and ill be switching from an idmax 12 also..
> 
> rest of my system is morel 6elates 3way upfront and tempo coaxials for rearfill or whenever i just want my system stupid loud


----------



## vidizzle

would you advise against lining the back with acoustic foam?


----------



## duckymcse

I was thinking of trying that. But, too lazy to take my sub apart.
I doubt there are any benefit to it when you deal with such a low frequency.
If you got time, give it a try and report back 



vidizzle said:


> would you advise against lining the back with acoustic foam?


----------



## Buzzman

duckymcse said:


> If you going to put the Ultimo 12 in a 2.0cuft box, don't use polyfill.
> Last time my voicecoil blown, the tech guy at Morel ask me did I use polyfill.
> I didn't use polyfill, not sure why the voicecoil got blown.
> Luckily, the recone kit was so easy to replace. But, it does cost me $250!!!
> Congrat on your Ultimo 12  It should be fun to listen to it.


The use of polyfill alone could not have caused your voice coil to blow. A blown voice coil usually results from electrical failure due to too much power being sent to the subwoofer. This can be caused by such things as incorrect gain settings, playing your system too loud for too long and exceeding the speakers power handling capability, or improper wiring, which can cause a low impedance load on the amplifier. There are possibly two reasons to not use polyfill with a 2.0 cubic foot enclosure. First, to do so will have the effect of increasing the net internal volume of the enclosure, thus lowering the Qtc measurement of the enclosure below what is ideal for the best performance from the Ultimo. Second, and more remote in my opinion because there is some latitude here, is if the subwoofer enclosure is too large, the mechanical suspension of the subwoofer could be compromised, causing the spider or surround to physically tear and/or possibly separate from the frame.


----------



## Buzzman

vidizzle said:


> would you advise against lining the back with acoustic foam?


You don't want to use acoustical foam in a subwoofer application because you will end up absorbing much of the air that is being pushed inside the box, and the foam will take up airspace, thus reducing the net internal volume you built your box to achieve. What you want to do is use materials that will dampen the enclosure and minimize resonance caused by the subwoofer's operation, while absorbing standing waves, etc. This is something you definitely want to do unless you enjoy hearing lots of buzzing and rattling instead of those low frequency notes the Ultimo is so adept at reproducing. I have used the following material with great success:

No Rez 24"x27" Sheet - NR-24x27

It also does not add displacement to your enclosure so you don't have to recalculate the internal volume when using it.


----------



## vidizzle

so im assuming if i must use anything in the 2cubic enclousure that would be the best and safest option? ill probably look into it then

reason i asked about the acoustic foam was i found some in the garage an was just trying to find some sort of purpose of it

and i agree with buzzman on the blown voicecoil...


----------



## Buzzman

vidizzle said:


> so im assuming if i must use anything in the 2cubic enclousure that would be the best and safest option? ill probably look into it then


I don't think "safety" is an issue, but the sonic results from using the No Rez product will be well worth it. By the way, you need to line the entire enclosure (all sides).


----------



## chad

When I look in my rearview mirrors all I can see is what's behind me.


----------



## AWC

Well....I got rid of the Ultimo. Now running a 15 inch utopia in 2 foot ported enclosure and am happier with it. 96 sensitivity meant less power needs and, therefore, better performance without upgrading alt.


----------



## s4turn

id love to get an ulitmo, but I dont think they sell them in New Zealand 

so either way, its going to cost just get one into the country


----------



## Bluenote

Dont mean to intrude on the thread...But I have an Ultimo 12 - 2ohm in a 1.5 cu.ft sealed enclosure...I wanted to go for a 2.0 cu. ft. but space limitations prevented it. So, can I apply Fiber-fill to bring the box up to the 2.0 spec? Or will that inhibit the performance of the sub? 

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Buzzman

Bluenote said:


> Dont mean to intrude on the thread...But I have an Ultimo 12 - 2ohm in a 1.5 cu.ft sealed enclosure...I wanted to go for a 2.0 cu. ft. but space limitations prevented it. So, can I apply Fiber-fill to bring the box up to the 2.0 spec? Or will that inhibit the performance of the sub?
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.


Hey Bluenote, no intrusion at all. The answer to your question is fiberfill will not inhibit performance of the Ultimo in your enclosure, and yes, by adding an appropriate amount you can fool the sub into responding as though it were in a larger enclosure. Please read the article by Tom Nousaine I cited on the bottom of page 19 of this thread, and follow his guidelines. Also, as Nautilus pointed out on page 18 of this thread, KEF makes a product that purportedly does the same thing: 

KEF International

I have never tried this product, don't know if it is available here in the U.S., or how costly it is. I do know that fiberfill is very inexpensive, so you can experiment for little cost and report back with your results. Space considerations is why I implemented an aperiodic application, and the results have been terrific.


----------



## Bluenote

Buzzman,

Thanks for the references to those articles I will definitely check them out!
Good to see you active in the forums again as you regularly seem to have some qualified recommendations!

Much appreciated!


----------



## vidizzle

so what are some of the lp crossover points you guys have been using to get it to blend with your front stage?


----------



## vidizzle

anyway.. i got my ultimo installed and listened to a variety of music from test discs to very day pop, rap, techno etc and compared it to my idmax .. i also tried the sub in 2 different enclosures in a 2.1 net sealed and 1.1net stuffed with 3/4 pound polyfill.. 

if i can get a cheap sub box thats around 1.5 cubic i want to try that as well as that might seem jus about right for me for my listening tastes

how long did it take you guys to break in the ultimo?


----------



## duckymcse

It's all depend on how strong your front stage midbass is producing the low frequency. Right now, i cross mine at 50hz @24db (reverse polarity). My front midbass is HP 40hz @ 24db. Experiment is your friend 



vidizzle said:


> so what are some of the lp crossover points you guys have been using to get it to blend with your front stage?


----------



## duckymcse

So, did you hear any different between 2.1(no poly) vs 1.1(with poly)?
I got no patient with break in. I crank it up on the first day, LOL.
For some reason, the sub sound better after a week. Maybe it's my imagination 



vidizzle said:


> anyway.. i got my ultimo installed and listened to a variety of music from test discs to very day pop, rap, techno etc and compared it to my idmax .. i also tried the sub in 2 different enclosures in a 2.1 net sealed and 1.1net stuffed with 3/4 pound polyfill..
> 
> if i can get a cheap sub box thats around 1.5 cubic i want to try that as well as that might seem jus about right for me for my listening tastes
> 
> how long did it take you guys to break in the ultimo?


----------



## LeandroVeterinario

I'm using a Morel Ultimo SC 12 2 ohms... in a sealed box under spare tire... and very happy with the sound... is so pure and precise... for me, is a excelent choice for a SQ subwoofer!


----------



## Bluenote

Buzzman said:


> Hey Bluenote, no intrusion at all. The answer to your question is fiberfill will not inhibit performance of the Ultimo in your enclosure, and yes, by adding an appropriate amount you can fool the sub into responding as though it were in a larger enclosure. Please read the article by Tom Nousaine I cited on the bottom of page 19 of this thread, and follow his guidelines. Also, as Nautilus pointed out on page 18 of this thread, KEF makes a product that purportedly does the same thing:
> 
> KEF International
> 
> I have never tried this product, don't know if it is available here in the U.S., or how costly it is. I do know that fiberfill is very inexpensive, so you can experiment for little cost and report back with your results. Space considerations is why I implemented an aperiodic application, and the results have been terrific.



Well, I added approx 1.25/1.5lbs of Polyfill to my 1.5cu.ft sealed enclosure. It has made a notable difference particularly with the lower frequencies...The sound is fuller yet still transparent for front blending. My only drawback is that I have only been able to put 750watts on this Ultimo 12 2ohm with a JLHD/750. It suffices to be certain but I feel and have read that 1000 + is ideal for this driver. Hopefully JL will release their HD1200 soon then is can see how much I am missing then  But overall I am very happy with this sub as it has been very consistent in reproducing everything that I play. 

Yep.


----------



## duckymcse

I went from JL HD750/1 to JL 1000/1v2 and I do felt a noticeable improvement in bass response. 



Bluenote said:


> My only drawback is that I have only been able to put 750watts on this Ultimo 12 2ohm with a JLHD/750. It suffices to be certain but I feel and have read that 1000 + is ideal for this driver.


----------



## Buzzman

vidizzle said:


> so what are some of the lp crossover points you guys have been using to get it to blend with your front stage?


I have listened to my Ultimo lowpassed from 40Hz to 80z (the current setting). My bass is UPFRONT! You can sit in the rear seats of my car and you won't hear the sub, and it's right behind your head.


----------



## Buzzman

duckymcse said:


> It's all depend on how strong your front stage midbass is producing the low frequency. Right now, i cross mine at 50hz @24db (reverse polarity). My front midbass is HP 40hz @ 24db. Experiment is your friend


Everyone wants to high pass midbass drivers at a very low frequency, but if they are mounted in the front doors, you will want to reconsider that. It's the rare door install where the speakers will not excite panels and plastic parts, thus creating resonance that will add distortion and coloration to the music to which you are listening. Here is something I recommend you do: mute all speakers except for your midbass and play music with a lot of low frequency information. With a 40 Hz highpass, you will probably be shocked at what you have been listening to. Now, increase the highpass frequency in 10 Hz increments until the resonance is about eliminated (listen to what happens around 80 Hz), and then change your slope to a shallower one so the speakers have greater output at a lower frequency than with a steeper slope, again listening for resonance. Then play with phase alignment. You might also find that you will be able to increase the output levels of the midbass drivers at this new setting and improve your tonal balance, transient response in the frequencies those speakers are playing, etc. Sure, you will likely have to use a higher lowpass frequency for your sub, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Depending on your car, subwoofer placement, crossover frequency and slope, and phase alignment, you might find that you get excellent results with a gap of 10 - 20 Hz between the lowpass frequency of the sub and the high pass frequency of the midbass speaker. You will have to experiment. Listen to both the midbass speakers and the sub at the same time and play with the low pass settings, phase alignment and output level of the sub (you don't want it playing so loud that you have unwanted resonance) until you get them sounding seamless and well integrated. And, your appreciation of the Ultimo will be even greater.


----------



## s4turn

Buzzman said:


> Everyone wants to high pass midbass drivers at a very low frequency, but if they are mounted in the front doors, you will want to reconsider that. It's the rare door install where the speakers will not excite panels and plastic parts, thus creating resonance that will add distortion and coloration to the music to which you are listening. Here is something I recommend you do: mute all speakers except for your midbass and play music with a lot of low frequency information. With a 40 Hz highpass, you will probably be shocked at what you have been listening to. Now, increase the highpass frequency in 10 Hz increments until the resonance is about eliminated (listen to what happens around 80 Hz), and then change your slope to a shallower one so the speakers have greater output at a lower frequency than with a steeper slope, again listening for resonance. Then play with phase alignment. You might also find that you will be able to increase the output levels of the midbass drivers at this new setting and improve your tonal balance, transient response in the frequencies those speakers are playing, etc. Sure, you will likely have to use a higher lowpass frequency for your sub, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Depending on your car, subwoofer placement, crossover frequency and slope, and phase alignment, you might find that you get excellent results with a gap of 10 - 20 Hz between the lowpass frequency of the sub and the high pass frequency of the midbass speaker. You will have to experiment. Listen to both the midbass speakers and the sub at the same time and play with the low pass settings, phase alignment and output level of the sub (you don't want it playing so loud that you have unwanted resonance) until you get them sounding seamless and well integrated. And, your appreciation of the Ultimo will be even greater.



great info, will have to try this when I get a chance


----------



## EricP72

Please no one blast me for this....but I noticed there is a 8" version....no if the 8" plays tight as the 12, could it be used as a midbass driver? Thinking if that was paired with the 12's it would be a nice 1-2 punch.


----------



## Gonadwarrior

thanks for the review


----------



## vfparts

Trying to decide whic one of the following amps to get to power an ultimo 12

MCINTOSH MCC301M...600 WATTS @ 2 OHMS
ARC AUDIO SE2300...1300 WATTS @ 4 OHMS
ARC AUDIO SE2150...600 WATTS @ 4 OHMS
AUDISON LRX2.9... 900 WATTS @ 2 OHMS

Whats do you guys think.


----------



## subwoofery

Arc SE2300 and send 1300rms 

Kelvin


----------



## Buzzman

vfparts said:


> Trying to decide whic one of the following amps to get to power an ultimo 12
> 
> MCINTOSH MCC301M...600 WATTS @ 2 OHMS
> ARC AUDIO SE2300...1300 WATTS @ 4 OHMS
> ARC AUDIO SE2150...600 WATTS @ 4 OHMS
> AUDISON LRX2.9... 900 WATTS @ 2 OHMS
> 
> Whats do you guys think.


I agree with Subwoofery. With the SE2300 you can get either the 2 Ohm or the 4 Ohm Ultimo and have sufficient power to drive either.


----------



## vfparts

thanks for the info, it seems that the se2300 is the way, id like to have matching amps so i think id be going with the se4200 for the piccolo tweeters and supremo 6 drivers. Thanks again.


----------



## Bluenote

I finally got around to adding more power to my Ultimo 12 / 2ohm and it has improved my system in more ways than one! 

Previous amp was a JL HD 750/1 powering the Ultimo in a 1.5cu.ft enclosure with poly fill added to increase the volume to approx 2.0 cu ft. This set up satisfied me for since Nov 10' but being cognizant of Morel's spec's and Buzzman' glowing review of the Ultimo in this thread for at least 1000 watts I had to step up give it a shot.

I recently bought a JL HD 1200/1 and put it on the Ultimo, and after a couple of MS8 calibrations and some EQ, I finally see where Morel, Buzzman and other Forum members recommendations stand. The difference is quite amazing in that I have a much more pronounced sub stage. The notes that are reproduced with the added power are much more articulate and detailed. There is a full completion of every bass line from beginning to end now that was not as apparent with the 750/1. The low-notes are also much more pronounced and blends much nicer with my front stage, not in the disappearing / no bass kind of way...But with a full bass that is strong but does not over-hang at all. I'm hearing bass notes that are reproducing practically dead center of the dash in my Lincoln LS and that applies to Stand up bass, Kick Drum, Synthesized and even the 808 Bass used on a lot of Hip-Hop tracks. It's all on the Dash. That would occur intermittently with the 750/1, but not with the presence and authority that I have now. 

The last unexpected caveat to this experience is that some how my Midbass is more defined and powerful as well. Many MS8 owners have had issues with the Midbass reproduction with this DSP and some not...I am not saying buy an ultimo etc etc...but somehow adding the recommended power to this Sub has cleaned up one of the most finicky areas of my system which was moderate to thin midbass. ( if anyone can tell me something about how that works I would appreciate it because I was ready to buy some larger mids to compensate; but this latest modification has that idea on pending status now LOL.) 

Overall, I just wanted to share this experience with those of you who have this Sub but may be on the fence about power requirements. If you can get 1000 watts(+) for this Sub, I doubt you will be disappointed. After almost 9 months I am finally hearing the output that this Sub has been touted to generate. And speaking of out-put it is much better as well...I dont have any DB measurements etc...All I can say that it's is louder but very very controlled, it's just great! 

Thanks to Buzzman for his detailed reviews and recommendations and all the other contributors to this forum. Your input, experiences and even arguments (at times) are indispensable! Yep.


----------



## P_4SPL

* That sounds like the install I had using a 15" Aliante Subwoofer (accordion surround) install I did 5 years ago.

It was in an Aperiodic enclosure and only 3" deep> though the sub suffered in the mid 50-70hz freq's, it played very musicaly in the upper mid-bass area...that actually enhanced the midbass presence on my front stage such as yours very remarkably.

I'm planning on using an Ultimo in a Home Audio project...specifically for it's ability to play bass notes articulatly and with defined body and presence.


----------



## Bluenote

Yeah, I'm still pretty amazed...for nine months I was trying to enhance my midbass via EQ and MS8 Calibrations... I add more power to the same sub and I've got more midbass than ever...I don't get it...but I like it.


----------



## oldskewl

fredridge said:


> I heard the morel sub was so fast that it could do 30hz in only 25 cycles


LMAO!


----------



## snaimpally

Glad this review has been of help to folks on the forum. I periodically swap new subs in just to try something new. But every time I swap the Ultimo 12 back in I appreciate anew what a great sub it is, and how much better it is then anything else I have tried.

The Ultimo needs lots of power. Minimum 800 watts and ideally at least 1000 watts. 




Bluenote said:


> I finally got around to adding more power to my Ultimo 12 / 2ohm and it has improved my system in more ways than one!
> 
> Previous amp was a JL HD 750/1 powering the Ultimo in a 1.5cu.ft enclosure with poly fill added to increase the volume to approx 2.0 cu ft. This set up satisfied me for since Nov 10' but being cognizant of Morel's spec's and Buzzman' glowing review of the Ultimo in this thread for at least 1000 watts I had to step up give it a shot.
> 
> I recently bought a JL HD 1200/1 and put it on the Ultimo, and after a couple of MS8 calibrations and some EQ, I finally see where Morel, Buzzman and other Forum members recommendations stand. The difference is quite amazing in that I have a much more pronounced sub stage. The notes that are reproduced with the added power are much more articulate and detailed. There is a full completion of every bass line from beginning to end now that was not as apparent with the 750/1. The low-notes are also much more pronounced and blends much nicer with my front stage, not in the disappearing / no bass kind of way...But with a full bass that is strong but does not over-hang at all. I'm hearing bass notes that are reproducing practically dead center of the dash in my Lincoln LS and that applies to Stand up bass, Kick Drum, Synthesized and even the 808 Bass used on a lot of Hip-Hop tracks. It's all on the Dash. That would occur intermittently with the 750/1, but not with the presence and authority that I have now.
> 
> The last unexpected caveat to this experience is that some how my Midbass is more defined and powerful as well. Many MS8 owners have had issues with the Midbass reproduction with this DSP and some not...I am not saying buy an ultimo etc etc...but somehow adding the recommended power to this Sub has cleaned up one of the most finicky areas of my system which was moderate to thin midbass. ( if anyone can tell me something about how that works I would appreciate it because I was ready to buy some larger mids to compensate; but this latest modification has that idea on pending status now LOL.)
> 
> Overall, I just wanted to share this experience with those of you who have this Sub but may be on the fence about power requirements. If you can get 1000 watts(+) for this Sub, I doubt you will be disappointed. After almost 9 months I am finally hearing the output that this Sub has been touted to generate. And speaking of out-put it is much better as well...I dont have any DB measurements etc...All I can say that it's is louder but very very controlled, it's just great!
> 
> Thanks to Buzzman for his detailed reviews and recommendations and all the other contributors to this forum. Your input, experiences and even arguments (at times) are indispensable! Yep.


----------



## Bluenote

^ So true! When previously running my 750/1 I was glad that the Ultimo performed so well with the power I had available at the time; but the xtra power now makes it shine! Thanks for posting the initial review!!!


----------



## Sadus

Has anyone been able to compare the 4 and 2 ohm versions of the Ultimo (ideally the 12s)?

Seems like it would take something like the JL HD1200/1 to do 4 ohms @ 1000 W. Compared to like the AQ1200D (supposedly 770W @ 14.4V 4 Ohms, so maybe 1000 at 2?) or even the AQ2200D just to be safe. The JL's specs on paper seem much better on paper but of course at quite the extra cost.


----------



## Salad Fingers

Sadus said:


> Has anyone been able to compare the 4 and 2 ohm versions of the Ultimo (ideally the 12s)?
> 
> Seems like it would take something like the JL HD1200/1 to do 4 ohms @ 1000 W. Compared to like the AQ1200D (supposedly 770W @ 14.4V 4 Ohms, so maybe 1000 at 2?) or even the AQ2200D just to be safe. The JL's specs on paper seem much better on paper but of course at quite the extra cost.


Are you asking for some alternatives that do 1k+ @ 4 besides the HD?


----------



## s200zr

can someone please tell me the best place to get one of these. I dont want to pay $800 for one. thanks


----------



## Sadus

Salad Fingers said:


> Are you asking for some alternatives that do 1k+ @ 4 besides the HD?


Well first I'm wondering if 4 Ohms vs 2 Ohms would really be noticeable or not, at a solid 1000W either way.

Some other 1000W 4Ohm amp suggestions would be great too though. I've come across a few like Hertz but they're many times more expensive, which surprised me since I keep hearing the HD1200/1 is relatively over priced. At [email protected] Ohms sure but for [email protected] it seems to be a half way decent deal from the alternatives I've seen so far.


----------



## oldskewl

Sadus said:


> Well first I'm wondering if 4 Ohms vs 2 Ohms would really be noticeable or not, at a solid 1000W either way.
> 
> Some other 1000W 4Ohm amp suggestions would be great too though. I've come across a few like Hertz but they're many times more expensive, which surprised me since I keep hearing the HD1200/1 is relatively over priced. At [email protected] Ohms sure but for [email protected] it seems to be a half way decent deal from the alternatives I've seen so far.


Find a clean Phoenix gold ZPA0.5. Can be had these days for less than $400 and put out clean and controlled A/B power while being rated at 1000watts RMS+ at 4,2 or 1 ohm BRIDGED loads. (0.5 was rated at a conservative 300x2 into a 4 ohm stereo load)

The only down side is you do need an 8 volt line driver and mucho current for these amps. However you WILL BE rewarded with a nearly unlimited well of exceptionally clean power. On the bench I think these amps were well over 1200 watts RMS while being rated at a very low THD...


----------



## subwoofery

Sadus said:


> Well first I'm wondering if 4 Ohms vs 2 Ohms would really be noticeable or not, at a solid 1000W either way.
> 
> Some other 1000W 4Ohm amp suggestions would be great too though. I've come across a few like Hertz but they're many times more expensive, which surprised me since I keep hearing the HD1200/1 is relatively over priced. At [email protected] Ohms sure but for [email protected] it seems to be a half way decent deal from the alternatives I've seen so far.


Try to find: 
JBL BPx 1100.1 
Zed Kronos 
Stetsom V 1K5 H 1 or 2 Ohm - SSA STORE 
OPTI500X2 - Lanzar Optidrive Opti500x2 2 Channel Car Amplifier - Lanzar 

Kelvin


----------



## piyush7243

DLS Ultimate A6 is also a good contender for [email protected]


----------



## oldskewl

subwoofery said:


> Try to find:
> JBL BPx 1100.1
> Zed Kronos
> Stetsom V 1K5 H 1 or 2 Ohm - SSA STORE
> OPTI500X2 - Lanzar Optidrive Opti500x2 2 Channel Car Amplifier - Lanzar
> 
> Kelvin


The stetsom and lanzar look like total POS amps...


----------



## Buzzman

piyush7243 said:


> DLS Ultimate A6 is also a good contender for [email protected]


That's at 1 Ohm. The Ultimo 12 comes with either a 2 Ohm or 4 Ohm impedance, and the DLS A6 is rated to output 870 Watts RMS with a 2 Ohm load, and 500 Watts RMS with a 4 Ohm load. I used the A6 with my Ultimo 12 (2 Ohm version) and it does not supply enough current for the Ultimo to perform at its best.


----------



## AWC

I've got me a steg k2.04 coming with enough power to turn my nipples into neon squids but I've consistently nut-slapped myself for not planning to use it on my mains. so it is with this great sadness, that I'm going with some SI mags and ditching the ultimo for better use of power....until I change my mind again....there it is..mind changed...AP enclsoure set-up with ultimos...again.


----------



## piyush7243

Buzzman said:


> That's at 1 Ohm. The Ultimo 12 comes with either a 2 Ohm or 4 Ohm impedance, and the DLS A6 is rated to output 870 Watts RMS with a 2 Ohm load, and 500 Watts RMS with a 4 Ohm load. I used the A6 with my Ultimo 12 (2 Ohm version) and it does not supply enough current for the Ultimo to perform at its best.


oops my bad. I thought that they are DVC 2 ohms..


----------



## Buzzman

AWC said:


> . . . mind changed...AP enclsoure set-up with ultimos...again.


Very wise choice.


----------



## subwoofery

oldskewl said:


> The stetsom and lanzar look like total POS amps...


That's the thing... They "look" like POS amps but they perform admirably... 

Stetsom amps are built to last since most that will use it are bassheads. 
I used to own the Lanzar and you'd be hard-pressed to find an amp that puts out so much CLEAN power for that price - never failed on me. I bought it like 5-6 years ago and it was something like $700... 

Kelvin


----------



## danno14

I was originally following Buzzman with a DA2k but have revised to a zapco 9.0. Should be enough


----------



## subwoofery

danno14 said:


> I was originally following Buzzman with a DA2k but have revised to a zapco 9.0. Should be enough


Be careful, that amp has been benched to do 2400rms - twice the necessary power of the Ultimo... If you know how to set your gains, don't ever let your friend's play with the volume knob 

Kelvin


----------



## danno14

Oops- clarification: I have a pair of ultimo's. 

Thanks for the well founded warning


----------



## ZAKOH

It still does not add at in my head, how does an "SQ" subwoofer need 1000watts RMS capable amplifier to power it to produce the best SQ, but then I am not EE engineer. Still, if that's the case, this sub seems like a terrible value proposition, given its price and the cost of a decent 1000watt amplifier. But the costs do not stop there. Next, you realize your 4awg power and ground wires are not enough, your amp fuse on the cable is too small, and you probably need the full big 3 upgrade and possibly a high output alternator.. all in the name of slightly better bass. And the strange thing is that the 8ohm version of Morel Ultimate sub (the home audio version) needs 2 times less power to achieve the same SPL as Morel Ultimo (4ohm).

Anyways, I think I'll pass .. even if I have this kind of cash... My next upgrade, probably some kind of Image Dynamics IDQ, Dayton HF, or Peerless XXLS unless something new comes up. Notheless, this sub family seems tempting. I might try the home audio version for home hifi system.


----------



## oldskewl

ZAKOH said:


> It still does not add at in my head, how does an "SQ" subwoofer need 1000watts RMS capable amplifier to power it to produce the best SQ, but then I am not EE engineer. Still, if that's the case, this sub seems like a terrible value proposition, given its price and the cost of a decent 1000watt amplifier. But the costs do not stop there. Next, you realize your 4awg power and ground wires are not enough, your amp fuse on the cable is too small, and you probably need the full big 3 upgrade and possibly a high output alternator.. all in the name of slightly better bass. And the strange thing is that the 8ohm version of Morel Ultimate sub (the home audio version) needs 2 times less power to achieve the same SPL as Morel Ultimo (4ohm).
> 
> Anyways, I think I'll pass .. even if I have this kind of cash... My next upgrade, probably some kind of Image Dynamics IDQ, Dayton HF, or Peerless XXLS unless something new comes up. Notheless, this sub family seems tempting. I might try the home audio version for home hifi system.


I am running the SC 4 ohm version and couldnt be happier. Of course I have 1100w RMS on it however I have no doubt that 500-700 watts of clean power will work just fine on the Ultimo SC.


----------



## Salad Fingers

ZAKOH said:


> needs 2 times less power


I think the word "half" would have worked just fine right there, and made a lot more sense. :laugh:

I'm not one to tell people what to do, but you shouldn't just discount something before ever hearing it.


----------



## chithead

I run 500 watts to my Ultimo SC and it seems quite happy.


----------



## ZAKOH

What I don't get is that according to WinISD alpha, the 2ohm Ultimo, in its recommended sealed box, will exceed its xmax excursion of 12.5mm with less than 200watts at 30Hz and the 4ohm Ultimo will exceed its xmax with less than 400watts of power. So it's not clear to me why one needs uber amplifiers to power these, specially the 2ohm version. My understanding the rated RMS power handling of a subwoofer is thermal/electrical power handling. The mechanical power handling can be a lot less. Just because some people have it running off 1000wrms capable amplifier, it's not like they're actually sending 1000wrms to the sub. That would be insane, or WinISD has to be wrong.


----------



## vfparts

This might be a questions that has been asked many times before but I was just curious. If I have the Ultimo 12 2 ohm version and the Audison LRX5.1K powering it, would it make any noticeable difference what kind of speaker wire I use. I basically plan on using 12 gauge wire but Im not sure if 10 gauge would be a better choice. As far as what kind of cable I was looking at either the stinger 12 gauge PHM with primarily because of its reputation and los price or I was considering the Knukoncepts speaker wires in either 12 or 10 gauge. (Karma, KL3 or Kasa) However the Kasa is very expensive at approx $3.50 per ft for the 10 gauge and $2.75 per ft for the 12 gauge compared to the others which are around $0.75 to $1.00 a ft. Any thoughts?

As far as the rest of the system it consist of the Morel SUpremo 6 midbass and the Supremo piccolo tweeters. For this front stage I pland on running 12 or 14 gauge. the wire runs will be approx 15-20 ft depending on how I woute them and as far as the subwoofer the wire run will be approximately 6-10 ft.


----------



## ehaze

Plugging in a zapco dc 1100.1 tomorrow.
Should be fun!


----------



## nautilus

Can consider the 8" if the 12" are way too huge...

Absolutely good woofer


----------



## t3sn4f2

ZAKOH said:


> What I don't get is that according to WinISD alpha, the 2ohm Ultimo, in its recommended sealed box, will exceed its xmax excursion of 12.5mm with less than 200watts at 30Hz and the 4ohm Ultimo will exceed its xmax with less than 400watts of power. So it's not clear to me why one needs uber amplifiers to power these, specially the 2ohm version. My understanding the rated RMS power handling of a subwoofer is thermal/electrical power handling. The mechanical power handling can be a lot less. Just because some people have it running off 1000wrms capable amplifier, it's not like they're actually sending 1000wrms to the sub. That would be insane, or WinISD has to be wrong.


Post by "Abmolech":

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/18660-abmolech-talks-power-speakers.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/17730-i-dont-understand-want-huge-power-subwoofers.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/25864-power-requirements-typical-setup.html#post279964


----------



## danno14

ZAKOH said:


> It still does not add at in my head, how does an "SQ" subwoofer need 1000watts RMS capable amplifier to power it to produce the best SQ, but then I am not EE engineer. Still, if that's the case, this sub seems like a terrible value proposition, given its price and the cost of a decent 1000watt amplifier. But the costs do not stop there. Next, you realize your 4awg power and ground wires are not enough, your amp fuse on the cable is too small, and you probably need the full big 3 upgrade and possibly a high output alternator.. all in the name of slightly better bass. And the strange thing is that the 8ohm version of Morel Ultimate sub (the home audio version) needs 2 times less power to achieve the same SPL as Morel Ultimo (4ohm).
> 
> Anyways, I think I'll pass .. even if I have this kind of cash... My next upgrade, probably some kind of Image Dynamics IDQ, Dayton HF, or Peerless XXLS unless something new comes up. Notheless, this sub family seems tempting. I might try the home audio version for home hifi system.


It's called the law of diminishing return.... The same may be said for Ferrari vs. Subaru, citation vs. G5, high speed internet to all of the nation, etc. As you get closer to a threshold it costs considerably more to get closer to the limit. Lucky for us, there are folks who just HAVE to push limits farther... We then benefit from the trickle down technology. IMHO anyway


----------



## quickaudi07

I just got my ULT on saturday. 4ohm version,, I love it.. now i know what i have been missing when it comes to SQ sub!


----------



## quickaudi07

Oh just to add to power rateing, I have talked to Morel regarding to power handeling.
One of the tech's told me that ULT loves to have 600-1500 w rms. I don't know if I would do 1500W rms on that sub, but I'm sure it does just fine with 800 w rms at this moment. Its being pushed by Zuki Audio Mono Block.


----------



## 99xjproject

quickaudi07 said:


> Oh just to add to power rateing, I have talked to Morel regarding to power handeling.
> One of the tech's told me that ULT loves to have 600-1500 w rms. I don't know if I would do 1500W rms on that sub, but I'm sure it does just fine with 800 w rms at this moment. Its being pushed by Zuki Audio Mono Block.


I was always under the impression the Zuki Mono put out a little more power than that. I asked Bootedrex about it powering my Ultimo and possibly a second 4 ohm version to wire it too 2 ohms and got the following for my reply. (Not the exact conversation I erased a bit that wasn't relevant.)

Justin,

Thank you for your interest in Zuki Audio. The ELEETS 4 channel is very comparable to the 4200SE in power output. As for the small mono, it is significantly more powerful than the 2300SE. You can expect 1200+ watts out of the small mono. As for current draw, the ELEETS will be similar to the SE series at normal listening levels. The difference will come if you push the ELEETS amps hard. If pushed to the very limit, the 4 channel amps are capable of drawing nearly 60 amps and the small mono will draw even more. I have run 2 4 channel amps and a small mono in my Scion for nearly 18 months with no issues. So the electrical system in your Jeep should be good to go. If you have any other questions please feel free to let me know.

Zach

Justin,

The small mono could easily power a pair of Ultimo subs. When bench testing the prototype of that amp I ran out of power supply before I ever ran out of clean power. I saw over 2Kw from it. 


Zach


----------



## s4turn

I sooo want a ultimo sub!
would cost quite a bit for one to get sent to New Zealand


----------



## quickaudi07

99xjproject said:


> I was always under the impression the Zuki Mono put out a little more power than that. I asked Bootedrex about it powering my Ultimo and possibly a second 4 ohm version to wire it too 2 ohms and got the following for my reply. (Not the exact conversation I erased a bit that wasn't relevant.)
> 
> Justin,
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Zuki Audio. The ELEETS 4 channel is very comparable to the 4200SE in power output. As for the small mono, it is significantly more powerful than the 2300SE. You can expect 1200+ watts out of the small mono. As for current draw, the ELEETS will be similar to the SE series at normal listening levels. The difference will come if you push the ELEETS amps hard. If pushed to the very limit, the 4 channel amps are capable of drawing nearly 60 amps and the small mono will draw even more. I have run 2 4 channel amps and a small mono in my Scion for nearly 18 months with no issues. So the electrical system in your Jeep should be good to go. If you have any other questions please feel free to let me know.
> 
> Zach
> 
> Justin,
> 
> The small mono could easily power a pair of Ultimo subs. When bench testing the prototype of that amp I ran out of power supply before I ever ran out of clean power. I saw over 2Kw from it.
> 
> 
> Zach



What Zach is saying to you is not a joke!
I have asked many question to Patrick and Zach as well... Great support!! 
I didn't use my amp for some time, I let my friend use it in his car powering 2 kicker L7 at 4ohm setup.. Subs played very nice but not for long either  

The amp is under powered, I have 2 of them 1 4ch and 1 mono, You just have to have one.. 

As far as for the ALT sub, I have the gain set to less than 1/4 of the gain on the amp and it just rocks~~!


----------



## vfparts

is an audison lrx1.1k at 2 ohms enough to properly drive an ultimo 12? I believe thats approx 800rms or does it need 1000 rms to really hear the true potential of the ultimo?


----------



## quickaudi07

I have called morel and asked questions about the sub. You need minimum of 600w rms for that sub. And if gained properly you could take it up to 1500 w rms on that sub. I say at least 1000 w rms would be a great match. You could also get a 2 ohm version of that sub as well.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk


----------



## quality_sound

WTF does "gained properly" mean?


----------



## chad

quality_sound said:


> WTF does "gained properly" mean?


Why the hell do you need at least 600 watts? :laugh:


----------



## kenikh

Just bought an Ultimo 12... couldn't take the twin JL 8w3v3s anymore. They're good subs, but my ear just kept finding more and more faults the longer I listened.

Will be pushing 700 RMS to it with an older amp, a JL G1700. We'll see if I need another amp soon, but I doubt it.

I just wish my four PH15s would magically merge into a mono amp with 1000 watts!


----------



## quickaudi07

chad said:


> Why the hell do you need at least 600 watts? :laugh:


Chad...

Thats the recommendation from Morel tech support. After having the sub for some time through brake in time period. I have noticed bit off a difference in sound. I don't know how to explain or express it but, its one of the best subs i have ever owned. For some time i thought i will need 2 of them oh boy was i wrong!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


----------



## quickaudi07

kenikh said:


> Just bought an Ultimo 12... couldn't take the twin JL 8w3v3s anymore. They're good subs, but my ear just kept finding more and more faults the longer I listened.
> 
> Will be pushing 700 RMS to it with an older amp, a JL G1700. We'll see if I need another amp soon, but I doubt it.
> 
> I just wish my four PH15s would magically merge into a mono amp with 1000 watts!


Did you get your sub? How do you like it? 

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


----------



## chad

quickaudi07 said:


> Chad...
> 
> Thats the recommendation from Morel tech support.
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


Well, I think that's just stupid. What if you are the type of person that would never touch that kind of power?


----------



## s4turn

I need to unsubscribe from this thread! a lot of these comments are making me jealous  

I dont think theres a retailer in New Zealand that sells Morel Ultimo car subs either


----------



## DAT

chad said:


> Well, I think that's just stupid. What if you are the type of person that would never touch that kind of power?


You buy the Ultimo SC


----------



## quickaudi07

DAT said:


> You buy the Ultimo SC


Whats up DAT?

Yes as Dat stated, SC could only handel 600 w rms, its the little brother....

If you have the amp, and the head room to push the big-boy, than I don't see why not go with the big sub... I have all the power and so more


----------



## chad

DAT said:


> You buy the Ultimo SC


----------



## chithead

Hey! I love my Ultimo SC.


----------



## chad

chithead said:


> Hey! I love my Ultimo SC.


never said there was a reason not to, just trying to wade thru the swamp of ******** and methane fog in power recommendations.

In other words, if someone told me that this particular driver that costs a lot of money, needs SIX HUNDRED WATTS to "sound good" in anything smaller than a school bus... I'd tell them to **** in their hat.

So I guess hot voice coils in power compression must sound good.

It's as easy as measuring acoustic output in an anechoic situation, the power that is not turned into acoustic energy is wasted in heat... Which will be about 600 watts, half a hairdryer, without a fan sucking in cold air and blowing it across the coil.


----------



## bassfromspace

chad said:


> never said there was a reason not to, just trying to wade thru the swamp of ******** and methane fog in power recommendations.
> 
> In other words, if someone told me that this particular driver that costs a lot of money, needs SIX HUNDRED WATTS to "sound good" in anything smaller than a school bus... I'd tell them to **** in their hat.
> 
> So I guess hot voice coils in power compression must sound good.
> 
> It's as easy as measuring acoustic output in an anechoic situation, the power that is not turned into acoustic energy is wasted in heat... Which will be about 600 watts, half a hairdryer, without a fan sucking in cold air and blowing it across the coil.


What if it's ported?


----------



## chad

bassfromspace said:


> What if it's ported?


----------



## chithead

I feed mine 500 watts, and have considered going down to 350. I have to agree with you Mr. Chad - don't need the big wattage to make these mothers move.


----------



## Salad Fingers

I currently have 550 from a Genesis Profile Sub to an Ultimo 12" and I think it sounds great. I think it would sound better at high volumes with double the power (and it will get it sooner or later), but it sounds good right now too!


----------



## bassfromspace

chad said:


>


Comedy!


----------



## quickaudi07

bassfromspace said:


> Comedy!


That's classic!


----------



## glidn

s4turn said:


> I need to unsubscribe from this thread! a lot of these comments are making me jealous
> 
> I dont think theres a retailer in New Zealand that sells Morel Ultimo car subs either


Surely finishing your fronts off would be better than replacing the sub again? Lol

So when are you getting one then?


----------



## DAT

NEW CES 2012 Brings us new MOREL subs or the guy that wants a Ultimo yet has broken pockets like me... 

Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Primo Subwoofer


----------



## Salad Fingers

DAT said:


> NEW CES 2012 Brings us new MOREL subs or the guy that wants a Ultimo yet has broken pockets like me...
> 
> Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Primo Subwoofer


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...bwoofer-line-supplement-ultimo-ultimo-sc.html


----------



## AWC

DAT said:


> NEW CES 2012 Brings us new MOREL subs or the guy that wants a Ultimo yet has broken pockets like me...
> 
> Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Primo Subwoofer


I guess they stopped doing the sensitivity shuffle. The Ultimo had 88db sensitivity...at 2.83V/1M but only 85 at 1V/1M...

Now they just said 91 @ 2.83 and to hell with the low 1V/1M business...


----------



## fahrfrompuken

So one Ultimo 12 or two Ultimo SC 12s?


----------



## t3sn4f2

fahrfrompuken said:


> So one Ultimo 12 or two Ultimo SC 12s?


4 Primos


----------



## fahrfrompuken

t3sn4f2 said:


> 4 Primos


Man I like how you think! 


Dunno if I have room for that though.


----------



## GLN305

fahrfrompuken said:


> So one Ultimo 12 or two Ultimo SC 12s?


two Ultimo SC's, twice the cone area, same power handling!


----------



## bassfromspace

fahrfrompuken said:


> So one Ultimo 12 or two Ultimo SC 12s?


Are you thinking about letting the 13 go?


----------



## fahrfrompuken

bassfromspace said:


> Are you thinking about letting the 13 go?


Yep, finally made a decision the other night. I am going to get 2 Ultimo SC 12s and sell all my other subs.

Here is what I have:

SUBS:
1ea 13W7 - used
2ea IDQ12v3D2 - used
1ea IDMAXv3D2 (BNIB)
1ea IDMAXv2D4 - used
1ea 10W7 - really beat up, but sounds perfect (I would recommend only for hidden applications) will be sold really cheap

MIDS:
2ea KRX2 mids only - used
2ea Exodus Anarchy mids - used
Eclipse SC6900 - used
Eclipse SP6900 - used

I have to list these items this weekend.

A couple of people have already contacted me about the 13W7 and the IDMAX12s.


----------



## Brian Steele

Salad Fingers said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...bwoofer-line-supplement-ultimo-ultimo-sc.html


Primo?

Sounds like the name of a dog food brand...


----------



## kenikh

quickaudi07 said:


> Did you get your sub? How do you like it?
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


Not yet. Waiting with baited breath!

The cavity I've been building a fiberglass enclosure for only measured out at .67 cu/ft. I am facing some additional fabrication work to get up to the optimal 1.0 cu/ft or at least the minimum .88 cu/ft.


----------



## subwoofery

kenikh said:


> Not yet. Waiting with baited breath!
> 
> The cavity I've been building a fiberglass enclosure for only measured out at .67 cu/ft. I am facing some additional fabrication work to get up to the optimal 1.0 cu/ft or at least the minimum .88 cu/ft.


You could try to fit a port on the bottom of the enclosure (like a ported enclosure) that goes underneath the cargo floor. Make the port as long as necessary and plug the very end. <-- will make you keep your sealed enclosure while adding the necessary cuft for your sub to work optimally... 

Kelvin


----------



## chad

subwoofery said:


> You could try to fit a port on the bottom of the enclosure (like a ported enclosure) that goes underneath the cargo floor. Make the port as long as necessary and plug the very end. <-- will make you keep your sealed enclosure while adding the necessary cuft for your sub to work optimally...
> 
> Kelvin


I was actually thinking about doing that as a vent at one point with two corner mounted subs, so speaker A's vent would be exiting next to speaker B, and vice versa....


----------



## fahrfrompuken

Would you guys that have heard both say that the Ultimo SC is just as good sounding and have the same ability to blend as the big brother Ultimo?

I am thinking of running two Ultimo SC 12s.


----------



## subwoofery

chad said:


> I was actually thinking about doing that as a vent at one point with two corner mounted subs, so speaker A's vent would be exiting next to speaker B, and vice versa....


Got that idea coz I wanted a more stealth install but finding space for a subwoofer can be a bit challenging sometimes... 

In your example, your enclosure ends up being ported, right? 

Kelvin


----------



## chad

subwoofery said:


> Got that idea coz I wanted a more stealth install but finding space for a subwoofer can be a bit challenging sometimes...
> 
> In your example, your enclosure ends up being ported, right?
> 
> Kelvin


Yes, vented. It was a backup plan back in the day in case the dayton did not cut it... It did. I'm a huge fan of tiny enclosures (in respect) and external venting.


----------



## subwoofery

chad said:


> Yes, vented. It was a backup plan back in the day in case the dayton did not cut it... It did. I'm a huge fan of tiny enclosures (in respect) and external venting.


Tiny enclosures? I know it helps with excursion, group delay and vent mach but is there something else? 

Kelvin


----------



## chithead

fahrfrompuken said:


> Would you guys that have heard both say that the Ultimo SC is just as good sounding and have the same ability to blend as the big brother Ultimo?
> 
> I am thinking of running two Ultimo SC 12s.


I can only speak from the Ultimo SC that I have, but can't help but try and talk others into them. AMAZING subwoofers. Without a doubt number one at the tip top of my list of all that I have owned.


----------



## chad

subwoofery said:


> Tiny enclosures? I know it helps with excursion, group delay and vent mach but is there something else?
> 
> Kelvin


ummmm yeah.... cargo space.


----------



## subwoofery

chad said:


> ummmm yeah.... cargo space.


Subwoofery Says Thank You to _Chad_ For This Useful Post :shifty:

Kelvin


----------



## Motorsport3

Hello! I'm new here! and been looking for some answers for a while.
I recently picked up audison lrx1.1 which puts out 800rms at 2ohms and 400 at 4ohms, and wondering which ultimo I should pick. Which would you pick?? ultimo or the ultimo sc?? with 800rms at 2omh.
Please let me know!! I've searched and probably read 1000 post about this already.


----------



## kenikh

Motorsport3 said:


> Hello! I'm new here! and been looking for some answers for a while.
> I recently picked up audison lrx1.1 which puts out 800rms at 2ohms and 400 at 4ohms, and wondering which ultimo I should pick. Which would you pick?? ultimo or the ultimo sc?? with 800rms at 2omh.
> Please let me know!! I've searched and probably read 1000 post about this already.


2 ohm. The extra power is key.


----------



## Buzzman

Motorsport3 said:


> Hello! I'm new here! and been looking for some answers for a while.
> I recently picked up audison lrx1.1 which puts out 800rms at 2ohms and 400 at 4ohms, and wondering which ultimo I should pick. Which would you pick?? ultimo or the ultimo sc?? with 800rms at 2omh.
> Please let me know!! I've searched and probably read 1000 post about this already.


If budget and space are not an issue, I would get the Ultimo (2 Ohm version) and put it in the largest possible enclosure you can (up to 2 cubic feet). Yes, having more available power helps improve the Ultimo's performance, but you will not be disappointed using that amp if you also use a large enclosure. The larger enclosure will reduce the demands on your amplifier compared to a smaller enclosure, and the Ultimo produces, to my ear, its most compelling bass response in a 2 cubic foot enclosure.


----------



## Motorsport3

Buzzman said:


> If budget and space are not an issue, I would get the Ultimo (2 Ohm version) and put it in the largest possible enclosure you can (up to 2 cubic feet). Yes, having more available power helps improve the Ultimo's performance, but you will not be disappointed using that amp if you also use a large enclosure. The larger enclosure will reduce the demands on your amplifier compared to a smaller enclosure, and the Ultimo produces, to my ear, its most compelling bass response in a 2 cubic foot enclosure.


Thank you sir!! I've read a lot about your car and your knowledge!!!
I learned a lot from you!! : )
Thank you for pointing e to the right direction!!
I have 98 c class and will use 2 ft^3 sealed box firing up through the rear deck. It takes up half of the trunk space but this car's not a grocery getter so I'm ok : )

p.s. how do you like the AZ sun?? did you see any rattle snakes or bark scorpions yet??? lol


----------



## chad

kenikh said:


> 2 ohm. The extra power is key.


according to this.... Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Ultimo Subwoofer - Ultimo Subwoofer

2.83V sensitivity is the same for both drivers, meaning one thing... the 4 ohm would hypothetically play louder because the 2 ohm unit will sag the power supply in the amplifier more


----------



## Salad Fingers

Hey Chad, have you ever heard any of the subs in question? Just curious.


----------



## chad

yup.


----------



## Salad Fingers

chad said:


> yup.


Cool. I wasn't trying to imply that your posts were invalid, just wondered. So I guess you didn't think much of it? Or just playing devil's advocate as usual? 

I've had my Ultimo 12" in my truck for a couple of weeks now and have been very happy with it. It's in a ~.9 prefab enclosure with a pound and a half of polyfill, so should be up around 1.1-1.2 with the driver displacement by my calculations. The sub is powered by a Genesis Profile Sub, receiving 550 watts @ 2 ohms. I think the others were right about the enclosure size, and if this is what ultimately (no pun intended) ends up a permanent part of the whole, I will aim for ~1.75 or so. Also, I can tell it can handle a lot more power. To be quite honest, it really is just fine for the way I normally listen to music. Nile is pretty much the only thing I listen to, and the kick drums are great at the comfortably loud listening levels I am usually jamming at. However in it's current state, I think if I were sitting most customers in the truck for a demo, there would be something left to desire that would be fixed with more power and volume. Therefore, that is the goal if I decide to keep it.


----------



## chad

It was OK, mostly devil's adocate... Still think it's overpriced.

And making fun of their spec sheets.


----------



## Salad Fingers

chad said:


> mostly devil's advocate


That's what I figured.


----------



## Buzzman

chad said:


> according to this.... Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Subwoofers - Ultimo Subwoofer - Ultimo Subwoofer
> 2.83V sensitivity is the same for both drivers, meaning one thing... the 4 ohm would hypothetically play louder because the 2 ohm unit will sag the power supply in the amplifier more


I think what kenikh was trying to say (and this is what I would have said) is that the poster was better served going with the 2 Ohm version of the Ultimo because with a 4 Ohm impedance his amp was not going to deliver the current necessary to move that massive voice coil and cone to max excursion. Indeed, it’s slim pickings out there if you are looking for an amp that will properly drive a 4 Ohm version of the Ultimo. 



Motorsport3 said:


> Thank you sir!! I've read a lot about your car and your knowledge!!!
> I learned a lot from you!! : )
> Thank you for pointing e to the right direction!!
> I have 98 c class and will use 2 ft^3 sealed box firing up through the rear deck. It takes up half of the trunk space but this car's not a grocery getter so I'm ok : )
> 
> p.s. how do you like the AZ sun?? did you see any rattle snakes or bark scorpions yet??? lol


Thanks for your very kind words. I try to be helpful whenever I can. AZ has been very nice so far and the only rattlesnakes I have seen have been dead ones, which is the way I want it. :laugh: I haven't encountered any scorpions as yet though, and hope I don’t.


----------



## chad

Buzzman said:


> I think what kenikh was trying to say (and this is what I would have said) is that the poster was better served going with the 2 Ohm version of the Ultimo because with a 4 Ohm impedance his amp was not going to deliver the current necessary to move that massive voice coil and cone to max excursion. Indeed, it’s slim pickings out there if you are looking for an amp that will properly drive a 4 Ohm version of the Ultimo.


I understand, but according to the spec sheet it has the exact same sensitivity at 2 ohms as it does at 4 ohms in terms of voltage. Therefore current schmurrent. If it makes X amount of "deebeez" at each impedance at 2.83V then it makes more sense to go with the 4 ohm version because regardless of current at X volts it's going to have the same excursion, because the "deebeez" are derived form excursion and diameter, and since we know the diameter has not changed we can deduce.... Excursion is the same.

Meaning that at high output the 2 ohm version will cause LESS output because of the voltage sag of the amplifier. Remember amps have ONLY voltage gain, the current is merely a component of impedance. ALL amplifiers have an amount of voltage sag as the impedance drops, it's the thing we have to sacrifice to have the luxury of not living at absolute Zero.

Please keep in mind, that again, this is a devil's advocate thing playing on the fact that their spec sheet is unassumingly wrong. But if I'm paying that much for a driver in an application that is netting me zero income, the spec sheet better be RIGHT 

That being said, didn't you switch out subs recently, or am I crazy?


----------



## Buzzman

chad said:


> I understand, but according to the spec sheet it has the exact same sensitivity at 2 ohms as it does at 4 ohms in terms of voltage. Therefore current schmurrent. If it makes X amount of "deebeez" at each impedance at 2.83V then it makes more sense to go with the 4 ohm version because regardless of current at X volts it's going to have the same excursion, because the "deebeez" are derived form excursion and diameter, and since we know the diameter has not changed we can deduce.... Excursion is the same.
> 
> Meaning that at high output the 2 ohm version will cause LESS output because of the voltage sag of the amplifier. Remember amps have ONLY voltage gain, the current is merely a component of impedance. ALL amplifiers have an amount of voltage sag as the impedance drops, it's the thing we have to sacrifice to have the luxury of not living at absolute Zero.
> 
> Please keep in mind, that again, this is a devil's advocate thing playing on the fact that their spec sheet is unassumingly wrong. But if I'm paying that much for a driver in an application that is netting me zero income, the spec sheet better be RIGHT
> 
> That being said, didn't you switch out subs recently, or am I crazy?


Devil's advocacy is a good thing. Your theory I cannot argue with, and that thinking is supported by the specs for the Ultimo SC which show between a 3.5db and 5db gain in output at the lower impedances with the same voltage. So, you are right to question the accuracy of that spec for the Ultimo. Anyway, my real world experience with the Ultimo is the basis for what I have said about it all along. And, no you are not crazy. I switched from the Ultimo to the Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 and have no regrets. One of the benefits is a sub that has all the characteristics I loved about the Ultimo + more, including greater excursion and efficiency while presenting a nominal 4 Ohm impedance.


----------



## chad

Buzzman said:


> And, no you are not crazy. I switched from the Ultimo to the Dynaudio Esotar2 1200 and have no regrets. One of the benefits is a sub that has all the characteristics I loved about the Ultimo + more, including greater excursion and efficiency while presenting a nominal 4 Ohm impedance.


I've heard their subs in their studio monitor lines and they put a big goofy grin on my face.

these do too...












> A set of unrivalled Dynaudio Acoustics M3A 3-way monitors is the first link, a Lab.gruppen PLM 10000Q amplifier is the second, providing you with an impressive 4 x 2300 watts of power at 4 ohms and last but not least, cutting-edge Lake and TC Electronic processing is the third link that ensures that you can optimize any room to become the perfect listening facility.
> 
> In other words, PLM3A takes calibrated monitoring to a whole new level!


----------



## fahrfrompuken

Think of voltage as the water behind the dam, the resistance as the size of the pipe coming out of the dam, the current as the amount of actual water flow. If you want more current (or water flow), then you have to put more water (more voltage) behind it, or increase the sze of the pipe (less resistance) which will give you more water flow (increased current). Power is the current multiplied by the voltage.

Voltage is purely potential, that is all

I would always get the 2 ohm version to get the most out of your amp. If you have an amp (and that is rare) that will be able to put out a total of 1000W into 4 ohms, the you can get the 4 ohm version.


----------



## chad

you simply did not read into my statement far enough did you?


----------



## fahrfrompuken

It's not that I didn't read your statement, I was just giving an explanation for those that might not understand the difference. It was not necessarily directed at you.


----------



## chad

gotcha, my bad :thumbsup:


----------



## Mahna Mahna

Would a JL 750/1 be enough to power the Ultimo or would I need say an ARC KS1000.1.


----------



## quickaudi07

Mahna Mahna said:


> Would a JL 750/1 be enough to power the Ultimo or would I need say an ARC KS1000.1.


JL 1200 hd amp will do the job. Also what version of morel did you get 2 ohm or 4 OHM?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## quickaudi07

quickaudi07 said:


> JL 1200 hd amp will do the job. Also what version of morel did you get 2 ohm or 4 OHM?
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


Chad!!!!! Please email me! I need your help!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

The power needs come down to how much output you want, versus how carefree/full you want to be with your volume knob. And none are figures that can be anywhere near approximated.


----------



## bahlgren342

I am becoming very interested in this sub. I only read the few pages. Couple questions if anyone can answer. 

Will this sub be worth it with just a 2-way front stage? That in mind, should it be all be ran fully active?

How does the Ultimo SC compare? How's the "bang for the buck" on either?

Any other good transparent subwoofers that compare? Either directly, or maybe a cheaper sub that comes close?


----------



## quickaudi07

I have ran idq and idmax before both great subs. Something to compair, Sc version has less power about 600rms. The big boy could handel 1000w rms +. Another thing to look in too is that you could replace the basket if you fry that sub which is about 300$. With the SC version you can't do that.
I really like my sub I had it for few months and it takes 800 w rms if not more without any issues, sometimes it seems to me that is bagging for more! 
Few things that I like about my sub. At any volume that I play my music I still hear it. And my wifie likes it even though she could care less about sound quality. The sub is not boomy, its very smooth and fast, it plays all the notes that I want!. Best sub ever had and if you plan on doing 2 way active it will be perfect. The way I have my system setup. The sub makes me feel like its right infront of me vs the trunk. Pay that extra $ and you won't regret that sub.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk


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## Bluenote

Mahna Mahna said:


> Would a JL 750/1 be enough to power the Ultimo or would I need say an ARC KS1000.1.


I ran my Ultimo 12 2ohm with a JL 750 for 6 months with no problem...however I've upgraded to the JL 1200 and the bass response is much better. So go with at least 1000 watts as suggested.


----------



## Viggen

I just had a ultimo 12 SC installed in my car with a older PDX1000.1 powering the speaker. I do not seem to be anywhere close to the limits of the driver with that 1000w

Sound is very good even though the shop made the fiberglass box .25-.5 cu ft smaller then I asked. VERY musical.... doesn't really sound like a sub.... loving it!!!!


----------



## zikzak

Hi guys - thanks for all the info in this thread - made me ultimately order an Ultimo 

I've already done a post on this elsewhere - but I wanted to ask specifically you about this - which is choice of amp..

I have 3 choices:

Steg K2.03
Audison LRx 1.1k

-or more of an 'outsider': Audio System Twister F2-500

The Steg and Audison are the same price. And the Twister is half their price..
The Ultimo 12" is 2 ohm

I would be happy for any comments or suggestions


----------



## SkodaTeam

zikzak said:


> Hi guys - thanks for all the info in this thread - made me ultimately order an Ultimo
> 
> I've already done a post on this elsewhere - but I wanted to ask specifically you about this - which is choice of amp..
> 
> I have 3 choices:
> 
> Steg K2.03
> Audison LRx 1.1k
> 
> -or more of an 'outsider': Audio System Twister F2-500
> 
> 
> The Steg and Audison are the same price. And the Twister is half their price..
> The Ultimo 12" is 2 ohm
> 
> I would be happy for any comments or suggestions


Steg or Audison 1.1k for sure! DLS A6 is another same price option.


----------



## quickaudi07

How about Mosconi 300.2 

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


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## DAT

All those amps would do it, the Audiosystem 500 would be ideal also, basically designed by Mosconi


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## subwoofery

zikzak said:


> Hi guys - thanks for all the info in this thread - made me ultimately order an Ultimo
> 
> I've already done a post on this elsewhere - but I wanted to ask specifically you about this - which is choice of amp..
> 
> I have 3 choices:
> 
> Steg K2.03
> Audison LRx 1.1k
> 
> -or more of an 'outsider': Audio System Twister F2-500
> 
> The Steg and Audison are the same price. And the Twister is half their price..
> The Ultimo 12" is 2 ohm
> 
> I would be happy for any comments or suggestions


Since you're in Europe, try to check the Helix SPXL 1000 Comp - Mini Brax amp  

Kelvin


----------



## zikzak

Thanks guys - that's how you know you are on the right forum - you ask about 3 choices and you get 3 new  It will be a choice of the 3 mentioned though cause they are all at a pretty good price. I have more or less settled on the Steg - 1947 Watt at 2 ohm should be enough for the Ultimo I guess  And a bit like having money in the bank which you can't use up no matter how hard you try (which I guess would be a good feeling). But at the end of the day I strongly suspect that I could tell the difference compared to the Audio System - output wise. And since it's half the price and a bit funny/oldschool I might go with that just to try something different. It's still a good build amp so I guess I wouldn't burn my fingers completely  Thanks for the input


----------



## zikzak

Would an IB solution like this be an idea for the Ultimo? Or would I be better off with a closed enclosure? (I was planning to build a 2.1 cu. ft. box but then I saw this solution)


----------



## quickaudi07

zikzak said:


> Would an IB solution like this be an idea for the Ultimo? Or would I be better off with a closed enclosure? (I was planning to build a 2.1 cu. ft. box but then I saw this solution)


From my understanding, Morel sub will not work in IB application...

Trust me thought of that as well


----------



## JeremyC

quickaudi07 said:


> From my understanding, Morel sub will not work in IB application...


I thought the same thing too, but I was incorrect. A couple people here run Morels in IB and are very pleased with them. 

So yes you can run them IB, and they actually do very well at it.


----------



## DAT

quickaudi07 said:


> From my understanding, Morel sub will not work in IB application...
> 
> Trust me thought of that as well



TRUE




JeremyC said:


> I thought the same thing too, but I was incorrect. A couple people here run Morels in IB and are very pleased with them.
> 
> So yes you can run them IB, and they actually do very well at it.


Really, all my tests show it sucks ass in IB, now AP is a different story.


----------



## JeremyC

DAT said:


> Really, all my tests show it sucks ass in IB, now AP is a different story.


By test, I'm guessing you have a couple, and you've tried installing them IB? 

Cause if your just quoting numbers, I think I would rather take the advice of someone with real world experiance. 



BuickGN said:


> The Ultimo does awesome in IB. I wouldn't switch subs since you already have the Morel. I've heard both, I like the Dyn better but no need to spend more money when you already have a great sub and especially not just so you can go IB. There was a guy on here that did exactly what you're planning to do, he went from an Ultimo sealed to an Ultimo IB and was very pleased. Save your money, you could pull this project off for $100 or less.


----------



## DAT

JeremyC said:


> By test, I'm guessing you have a couple, and you've tried installing them IB?
> 
> Cause if your just quoting numbers, I think I would rather take the advice of someone with real world experiance.


No I've tried them IB, single 12, and then a pair of 12's.

But go ahead and try it IB, doesn't matter to me, just trying to help.


----------



## avanti1960

bahlgren342 said:


> I am becoming very interested in this sub. I only read the few pages. Couple questions if anyone can answer.
> 
> Will this sub be worth it with just a 2-way front stage? That in mind, should it be all be ran fully active?
> 
> How does the Ultimo SC compare? How's the "bang for the buck" on either?
> 
> Any other good transparent subwoofers that compare? Either directly, or maybe a cheaper sub that comes close?


I'll be trying this one very soon although I have never heard the Ultimo the reading over the excellent descriptions almost make it seem that way.

I really trust the Scan brand plus these subs "model" in TS software very much the same. 
The Scan and the Morel were the only (2) 12" subs that fit my box volume with a reasonable Qtc ( .72) and low F3/FB (Scan 39Hz, Morel 40Hz). 
Every other sub had higher F3 (e.g. 45 to 50). 
I know your F3 is supposed to align with cabin gain but in my car my cabin gain actually falls like a rock below 60Hz. 
Regardless, I am really excited to try this Scan sub. 

Madisound Speaker Store


----------



## EricP72

ok quick question. i sold my pair of spg555. i had them each in a sealed 1.cuft box. i was in love with the lower freq output. but after re-reading this review and the comments im seriously thinking about a pair of these as a replacement. for power i have 2 alpine mrx-m240 that i may aquire and i see these may be a bit of over kill. in u guys opinion will a listener like myself (mostly fusion jazz, but some rap and stuff like john meyers vultures) who also runs a pair of peerless 8"sls in the front doors be satisfied with a pair of these at 2ohms? i also like my settings to be low passed at 63hz and just enough level to not hear or localize the sub but when a low note hits u know they are there. the reason i sold the spg555 is they didnt have that higher hit im used to. but was so good down low. any opinions are appreciated and if more info on my listening habits are needed let me know


----------



## Viggen

If you like feeling your subs I say no to the morel

My single 12 with a pg elite.2 powering it in a 1 cu ft box I do not feel anything.

For the most part I am happy.... Wish it was in a bigger box


----------



## rugdnit

manish said:


> ok quick question. i sold my pair of spg555. i had them each in a sealed 1.cuft box. i was in love with the lower freq output. but after re-reading this review and the comments im seriously thinking about a pair of these as a replacement. for power i have 2 alpine mrx-m240 that i may aquire and i see these may be a bit of over kill. in u guys opinion will a listener like myself (mostly fusion jazz, but some rap and stuff like john meyers vultures) who also runs a pair of peerless 8"sls in the front doors be satisfied with a pair of these at 2ohms?* i also like my settings to be low passed at 63hz and just enough level to not hear or localize the sub but when a low note hits u know they are there. the reason i sold the spg555 is they didnt have that higher hit im used to. but was so good down low*. any opinions are appreciated and if more info on my listening habits are needed let me know


Just curious if you have ran a JBL GTI? I love my 15. I just sold off a 12 and a 10. I wish I could have found a use for them. To me these subs do great down low, but blend up higher so well. Just a thought.


----------



## EricP72

Viggen said:


> If you like feeling your subs I say no to the morel
> 
> My single 12 with a pg elite.2 powering it in a 1 cu ft box I do not feel anything.
> 
> For the most part I am happy.... Wish it was in a bigger box


damn it, these arent for me then...because with jazz they would be perfect, but with rap, i need that hit.


----------



## EricP72

rugdnit said:


> Just curious if you have ran a JBL GTI? I love my 15. I just sold off a 12 and a 10. I wish I could have found a use for them. To me these subs do great down low, but blend up higher so well. Just a thought.


 no but i heard them before. i like them also, but i was hoping to find something even better now. i dont wanna have to buy used subs.


----------



## rugdnit

manish said:


> no but i heard them before. i like them also, but i was hoping to find something even better now. i dont wanna have to buy used subs.


It doesn't get much better than those.


----------



## quality_sound

You're crossing your subs at 63Hz then complaining that they don't have more midbass output???


----------



## quickaudi07

I have mine crossed at 22hz @ 36 DB all the way up to 80hz... My Morel loves it, and I feel it, and hear it


----------



## Golden Ear

quality_sound said:


> You're crossing your subs at 63Hz then complaining that they don't have more midbass output???


I was thinking the same thing. What else could he mean by "higher hit", right?


----------



## EricP72

sorry meant harder hit not higher..lol yes higher wouldve been in the midbass range


----------



## Lorin

I am running my single, ultimo 12 with peerless 8s in the doors as well (@ 63 hz \ 12 db). the sub does work well with jazz and the lack of localization is something that I feel this sub does very well. I believe a pair of these in the right sized boxes and ample power should be VERY nice. They should have reasonable hit. If serious hit is what you need, the JBL's may suit your needs better


----------



## fahrfrompuken

Lorin said:


> I am running my single, ultimo 12 with peerless 8s in the doors as well (@ 63 hz \ 12 db). the sub does work well with jazz and the lack of localization is something that I feel this sub does very well. I believe a pair of these in the right sized boxes and ample power should be VERY nice. They should have reasonable hit. If serious hit is what you need, the JBL's may suit your needs better


That is my thought exactly. I had 1 Ultimo 12 and 2 SC10s. I was going to save the Ultimo and never sell it. I found another Ultimo for sale cheap so I picked it up. I am hoping the pair will give me the lack of localization and also have the impact I am looking for when I turn it up.

Now to get an amp that can drive 2 Ultimo 12s. I think my single DC Ref 1100.1 will not be enough power for 2.


----------



## quality_sound

Unless you're using a HORRIBLY wretched sub, localization is going to come almost entirely from vibrations around the sub. I mean hell, I'm running front speakers that most would say "have no midbass" and a decent, not "high end" Arc 10 and it doesn't localize until everything in the hatch starts buzzing (I haven't deadened yet). I've even bounced around beween 65Hz and 100Hz on the XO point and it doesn't matter. 

I really like high end subs but I think it's because they tend to be low inductance, low Qts subs. That's why I like the Arc subs so much.


----------



## firebri

New post on an old thread. I actually spent a lot of time on this thread leading up to my purchase of the Ultimo.

I have an Ultimo 124 in my Kia Soul. It's in a sealed box of 1.6cf, 1.5cf with displacement. The box was designed by Dave the Box Guy, specific for my sub, vehicle, amp, and listening goals. I built it myself from his blueprints. I'm driving it with a JL Audio HD 1200/1.

Many of the posts I've read about this sub discuss it's transparency. I guess if that means it doesn't add it's own character to the music, I'd have to agree. However, I don't feel like this sub is limited by it's accuracy. I do listen mostly to hard rock, but I also listen to some bass heavy stuff as well. This sub sounds just as good with Skrillex as it does with Rush, as it does with Pink Floyd, as it does with Van Halen. I love it. It can hit very hard, it stays composed, and it recovers quickly. I've had JL subs in the past, so I've had some experience with some decent subs, but this thing is a whole new ballgame. Listening to old stuff and having it seem like the first time is a lot of fun.


----------



## chithead




----------



## EricP72

You have me thinking about a pair of these now.


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

Couldn't help reopening this thread. 

I am about to install a 12" Ultimo Titanium in a custom fiber-glassed sealed enclosure over my right side wheel well in my 2017 Tucson. I will have a https://www.zapco.com/z-400-2-lx running the sub. My question is should i get the 4ohm version (makes sense with the Zapco specs) and how many cubic feet do you guys suggest I go with? I was thinking 1.4 to 1.8 cu. ft.? Hoping the "transparency" is something I can appreciate, but I think in this setup, it is hard to not go for it. 

I think the Ultimo 12" would be a nice SQ addition to my front stage. I will be having the http://www.focal.com/en/car-audio/c.../utopia-be/component-kits/utopia-be-kit-ndeg7 three-way set up front OR the http://www.focal.com/en/car-audio/car-audio-kits-solutions/elite/k2-power/component-kits/es-165-kx3 set. All would be off of the https://www.zapco.com/z-150-6-lx (if active) OR just use the 5,6th channels on rear fill if passive. Not sure yet which set to go with here and if I will go active or passive. MUCH cheaper with the Utopia 7's active since I can get that set without its famous crossover block. I will have the http://mosconi-system.it/product/gladen-dsp-8to12-aerospace-2/ running them all off my stock head unit. 

Which of these Focal 3-way sets would you guys suggest and active or passive (crossover block and/or DSP?). I like classical rock, 21 Pilots, System of a Down, some jazz, pop, pretty much anything. 

ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have been out off the game for YEARS now and just getting back into it. I see npdang is around! He was such a gentleman in helping me like 12 years ago on here! I remember him so well with all his great help! 

Thanks again guys.
Pete


----------



## Lorin

If you are planning on bridging that Zapco amp, than a 4 ohm would be where you will get the most power (@ 2 ohm bridged). I originally ran my Ultimo SC in 1 cubic ft. I then went to a larger sealed box of 1.4 ft, and was happier with the lower end. I have since gone to a ported enclosure tuned to 33 hz. The one sub in this arrangement is where I want to be.


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

Lorin said:


> If you are planning on bridging that Zapco amp, than a 4 ohm would be where you will get the most power (@ 2 ohm bridged). I originally ran my Ultimo SC in 1 cubic ft. I then went to a larger sealed box of 1.4 ft, and was happier with the lower end. I have since gone to a ported enclosure tuned to 33 hz. The one sub in this arrangement is where I want to be.


My installer said he can squeeze about 1.7 cu. ft. in a sealed enclosure over my right side wheel well. The sub will be the 12" Ultimo at 4ohm with almost 4ohms of 1400RMS power to it. 

Do you think the 1.7 cu. ft. will be enough space to give me some low end? 

Thanks, 
Pete


----------



## Holmz

Is these still a good option?
Also looking at other small subs like a 8.5" SunDown.
So I am open to suggestions of where to look.

I have an amp that does 300W into 4 ohms and 500W into 2 ohms.
Not looking for a booming sub but something that can extend up to where a midrange can take over.


----------



## Oscar

Holmz said:


> Is these still a good option?
> 
> Not looking for a booming sub but something that can extend up to where a midrange can take over.


Old thread, but I wanted to add info.

If the car audio Ultimo is anything like the home audio Ultimate line, which I'm sure it is, the 10" & 12" Ultimate UW1058's and UW1258's can extend well into the _treble _range on-axis! Never heard anything like it. I might be able to get some FR graphs if anyone needs them for the Ultimate's.


----------



## lucas569

sorry to bring this back up but .....

I know this is sacrilegious is there a sub that (is available in 2020) that sounds like the Ultimo SC? I had an Ultimo back in 2008 and I loved it. This time around I’m not looking to spend that much.

or am I just gonna have to bite the bullet and buy an Ultimo sc?


----------



## mrexcitement

I had a single Ultimo 12" (pre titanium) in sealed and ported and was not impressed with it.

To me it's too dry and doesn't have enough output (even ported) , there is just no excitement to it , very boring.

I am a full bass head but also want quality with high SPL , you have to feel it.

I ended up giving it to my son and set myself up with a dual 10" with dual 10" passives (1.4cu ft , 2 x Dayton Audio RSS265HO-4, 2 x RSS265HO-PR) and to me it sounds better with more output and cleaner.

Also i am dubious of the RMS wattage rating as my son managed to fry it using an Alpine PDX-M12 with the gains set correctly (no clipping) , at least it can be re-coned very easily (although half the cost of a new driver).


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## Golden Ear

lucas569 said:


> sorry to bring this back up but .....
> 
> I know this is sacrilegious is there a sub that (is available in 2020) that sounds like the Ultimo SC? I had an Ultimo back in 2008 and I loved it. This time around I’m not looking to spend that much.
> 
> or am I just gonna have to bite the bullet and buy an Ultimo sc?


Illusion Audio C12/C12XL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

Guys here like the Ultimo - personally I had the 12” and it wasn’t that great TBH - my JBLW12GTi sounded better - even my old Soundstream Exact 10 sounded better 

I found the bass a little sloppy... there are definitely better options out there....


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## chomba

I will add my 2cents in this. I have the 12” Ultimo and it is unlike any sub I have every heard. I consider it more a ‘large speaker/woofer’ than a subwoofer. 

It’s hits the note and stops. No sloppiness, no delay, no lag. It is fast, accurate and goes well into the 20hz region. It will also go up to 900hz, and blend superbly with your mid-bass. It disappears and it’s uncanny in its ability to hit a 20-30hz note and then disappear immediately. All the bass seems to be coming from the woofers in the doors.

In my humble opinion, no other sub comes close. Just go the Ultimo and be done with it. 


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## PeteyGoesBoom

I just installed a 12" Ultimo with a Helix P One (880 watts @ 2 ohms) in a 1.5 cu/ft sealed enclosure in my 2020 Hyundai Santa Fe in the empty cargo floor space. It sounds absolutely AMAZING after 10 hours of playing, so assuming it will only get better as it breaks in. The bass response is SO quick, clear and VERY fast without ANY exaggeration to the bass notes it is supposed to hit. I never heard anything like this sub. Very unique and I am sure it will only get better in time. 

I am thinking about adding a second Ultimo and adding another Helix P One amp. The Twin Link feature of this Helix amp would bring the combined amp power to 3000 watts @ 2 ohms total. Obviously I would be making a new bigger box for both Ultimo's at around 3.0 cu/ft in a sealed enclosure as well. Maybe a tad more. 

So my question is would this be worth the extra 2K or so I have to lay out OR would the difference be minimal enough were it wouldn't be worth it. The fact that I would be going from 880 watts @ 2ohms per sub, to 1500 watts alone makes me think it will maximize the subs capabilities. The Helix amp has that Twin Link feature that almost doubles the power output when linking two of those P One amps together. And in this case, seems like it would help with that extra power since those Ultimo's are so power hungry, AND the fact there would be two subs as opposed to one. 

ANY advice would help form anyone with experience in this setup. 

Thanks! 
Pete


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## PeteyGoesBoom

No one? ;{


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## Holmz

^No!^

If it sounds amazing now, then just call it a day and keep the money in the bank.

Or get some scraps of wood and make a ported box and see (hear) if that is any better... and then weigh up the cost versus improvement value.


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## NoTraction

Golden Ear said:


> Illusion Audio C12/C12XL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Woofer porn right there


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## radiospank

mrexcitement said:


> I had a single Ultimo 12" (pre titanium) in sealed and ported and was not impressed with it.
> 
> To me it's too dry and doesn't have enough output (even ported) , there is just no excitement to it , very boring.
> 
> I am a full bass head but also want quality with high SPL , you have to feel it.
> 
> I ended up giving it to my son and set myself up with a dual 10" with dual 10" passives (1.4cu ft , 2 x Dayton Audio RSS265HO-4, 2 x RSS265HO-PR) and to me it sounds better with more output and cleaner.
> 
> Also i am dubious of the RMS wattage rating as my son managed to fry it using an Alpine PDX-M12 with the gains set correctly (no clipping) , at least it can be re-coned very easily (although half the cost of a new driver).


To be fair you are comparing two 600 watt woofers to one woofer, those daytons can handle at least 1500 watts. I have two DD 10s and they sound smooth but don't have that detail like the Ultimo, even tho the DDs get louder it's just not as detailed and music to me sounds mehh. These DD 2010 series subs are their SQ reference range, well they sounded like typical tubby subs, not like a big midbass such as the Ultimo. 

So in short Nothing compares to the Ultimo but the Ultimo, that's why I just picked up another one. 


Ultimo single 12 running at 1200 watts @ 2 ohms for years, don't know how you blew the drive with an alpine tbh. 
I just got another Ultimo so I will be running them at 1 ohm 2400 watts, I'm confident they can handle that.


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## SWRocket

Has anyone run the Ultimo 12 in a vented enclosure. I had it in a sealed 1.25ft3 and didn't find it that great...Modelling a vented enclosure in WinISD of 1.8ft3 @28Hz seems like it would do well but I'd love some advice from someone who's run it...(The blue is in a sealed 1.5ft3)


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## radiospank

SWRocket said:


> Has anyone run the Ultimo 12 in a vented enclosure. I had it in a sealed 1.25ft3 and didn't find it that great...Modelling a vented enclosure in WinISD of 1.8ft3 @28Hz seems like it would do well but I'd love some advice from someone who's run it...(The blue is in a sealed 1.5ft3)
> View attachment 280837


tbh I have mine in a 3 cubes sealed box for 2 12s, it hits hard at 40 50 hz but quickly drops at 30 and 20, don't get me wrong it sounds good and tight. However comparing it to my single Horn loaded enclosure with one 12 it was pretty loud on that 30 hz too, I might even say I prefer it. Ultimo can sound good ported because it's extremely detailed and doesn't sound sloppy at 30 hz like other woofers, just inherent in it's designs imo.


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## SWRocket

I think I'll build it. I have the sub anyway and it will be cool to compare with the 2x RSS265HO-44 sealed enclosure I have.
1.86 ft3 tuned @26Hz with a 4"x24" precision port seems to optimal. Port velocity is around 40 m/s peak. If I go to a 3" port it' only 13" long but goes way up to 75 m/s
Since it will be completely in the trunk, I'm not sure if the port velocity is really an issue...


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## radiospank

SWRocket said:


> I think I'll build it. I have the sub anyway and it will be cool to compare with the 2x RSS265HO-44 sealed enclosure I have.
> 1.86 ft3 tuned @26Hz with a 4"x24" precision port seems to optimal. Port velocity is around 40 m/s peak. If I go to a 3" port it' only 13" long but goes way up to 75 m/s
> Since it will be completely in the trunk, I'm not sure if the port velocity is really an issue...
> View attachment 280877


looking forward to this comparison as I've heard great things about the daytons, but never had an AB comparison with the Ultimo. Also port noise isn't an issue for me personally but there is some ambiguity on its value on port area of a sub. Good luck.


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## Holmz

SWRocket said:


> I think I'll build it. I have the sub anyway and it will be cool to compare with the 2x RSS265HO-44 sealed enclosure I have.
> 1.86 ft3 tuned @26Hz with a 4"x24" precision port seems to optimal. Port velocity is around 40 m/s peak. If I go to a 3" port it' only 13" long but goes way up to 75 m/s
> Since it will be completely in the trunk, I'm not sure if the port velocity is really an issue...
> View attachment 280877


There is always the option of a passive radiator, the port noise is less, and the tuning is then adjustable.


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## SWRocket

I'm actually completely open to PR. The problem is that I don't understand them enough and can't seem to be able to model them properly in WinISD.
There is also the issue of cost I guess...But I don't know which PR would be used with this sub so I don't know how much it is.


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## radiospank

check out this video on ports, i've started it right at when he speaks about passive radiators


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## SWRocket

Excellent, thank you sir


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## ehaze

for the money, is the Morel Ultimo 12" still pound for pound the best sub on the market? I'm in the process of ordering a bunch of new stuff to replace the "JBL" audio in my Land Cruiser. *thx*!


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## fahrfrompuken

It used to be. Now I would say that for SQ the Illusion Audio Carbon C12XL or the Raven version kill just about everything else IMHO.


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## ehaze

the c12xl is selling for ~1,000.
not seeing the Raven online?


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## fahrfrompuken

Both are made by ORCA Design and MFG. The Ravens have a similar design to the Illusions but are made for home audio. Tighter controls on parameters for Raven. Many speaker manufacturers are using their drivers. I'm going to run 4 Raven 10s under my rear seat in my F150.






ORCA Design & Manufacturing » HOME


ORCA Design & Manufacturing - Creator and distributor of high quality car audio products.




www.orcadesign.com






Raven Design Studio – High-End Loudspeakers


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## ehaze

this somewhat small system will be going in a newer Land Cruiser. one of the third-row seats will be removed to make room for the sub, but the amp's and converters will be another thing.


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