# Illuminator 3/4 dome D2004/6020-00/Madisound



## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

I just wanted to give my initial impressions of these and thanks to the people who suggested them.

Wow! I am replacing the original PRS tweets that came with the 720PRS set. They were rather shrill at times, bright, thin sounding... anemic perhaps.

The Scanspeaks have given a totally different presentation. Its amazing what 2 little tweeters can do! They have given body and depth to voices and instruments. What was once hollow is now solid. I would say its an accurate tweeter, a touch on the warm side, or maybe thats because the PRS set was so cool. Nice detail, for example the flutter on Jimmy Smiths Hammond organ is now there and organic sounding. It has weight where before I was listening to just the tones of the organ. The highs are nice and controlled. No going off into shrill land or brightness, staying natural. The soundstage is good... I will have to listen some more to give a better description but it goes from window to window. VS the PRS the image is also much taller.

I mounted the Illuminators in the plastic part that goes in the corner of the front windows of a Mazdaspeed 3. Seems like a good placement and is on a relative equal plane with the mids. I am running 120w into the tweets with a Kenwood Class D 4xr amp (its tiny, but sounds great.) Some people prefer Class A/ AB but I think Class D had come far enough where its equal, with lower distortion. I use Class D at home too, so I figured Id stick with it.
I also crossed it at 1.25kHz on my 880 HU with a 12db slope. Seems to match up pretty well at that point. The tweeters play pretty loud too.
After a month I will give more of a real review, but these are def a good purchase.
Mike


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## fenis (Apr 12, 2008)

You have them high passed at 1.25khz @ 12dB/oct?? That's pretty freakin low for a tweeter! Can they really handle that low a crossover?

I'm tempted to buy these tweeters to replace my harsh and thin sounding MB Quart tweets to cross over at about 2.5khz..


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## 4-way (Jul 9, 2009)

As the Fs of this tweeter should be 600 Hz it is possible. On the other hand I would prefer 18dB/oct. 
It is also questionable what is left about the "warmth" of human voice (man or woman).


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Maybe I will do 18 too. What kind of instruments lie in the 1.25 range? So I can listen to see if there are any bumps. It seems to play pretty well there, and since the fs is 600 I wanted to see if was possible. And it seemed good to go. I know with the PRS tweets once I went too low like 2500, they immediately became harsh and didnt like it. 
Mike

Tried 18, I like 12 better, seems fuller...

They need time to break in too... I need to drive cross country... hehe.. 
These are not laid back tweets, but thats not saying they are harsh..


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

OK I just moved the crossover to 1.6 @ 12db. Not that the tweets dont play lower, but it definitely opens up the sounstage from top to bottom, instead of covering up the bottom. Or shelving it, hell Im no crossover expert... it seems more whole.


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## 4-way (Jul 9, 2009)

Deton Nation said:


> ... hell Im no crossover expert...


Well, some quotes: "the first step is the hardest", "practice makes perfect" and most important "patience is a virtue".


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Deton Nation said:


> OK I just moved the crossover to 1.6 @ 12db. Not that the tweets dont play lower, but it definitely opens up the sounstage from top to bottom, instead of covering up the bottom. Or shelving it, hell Im no crossover expert... it seems more whole.


I think you'll be better off using a HP greater than 1.2 kHz... especially if you want to use 12 db / octave slopes. Even with a 600 Hz FS, that's a 3/4" dome you've got there and you're beginning to push the capabilities of that driver. I want to be clear, though, that this is my opinion. However, it is based off my experience with the D3004/66000 Air Circ Illuminators. The Air Circs are large format, have a 1" dome, and have a lower Fs than your domes and I know from my own personal experience that output for those tweeters is definitely decreasing well before I get to 1.2 kHz. Measurements were taken using a Bruel & Kjaer Type 2250.

Obviously, I'm extrapolating results from one Illuminator model to another, but I think it's based on sound reasoning and good data. Personally, I'd look more around the area that you're checking out right now... 1.6 kHz and higher if you like what you hear.

Anyway, congratulations on your purchase and have fun!


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Yeah 1.6 is def better... I am really enjoying the imaging ability of these tweeters and the nuance and detail they pick up. Amazing!!
Thanks!
Mike


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

if your tweeter surround is moving back and forth like a subwoofer when playing music, you may want to move it up in crossover point  just my opinion as well


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

BigRed said:


> if your tweeter surround is moving back and forth like a subwoofer when playing music, you may want to move it up in crossover point  just my opinion as well


LOL.... Dood check out my tweets. (link to insane video on Youtube, car shaking, doors moving in and out...)


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yea, even 1.6k at 12 dB sounds kinda iffy. I mean even 800hz 12 dB down is a lot for 19mm of silk and almost 0 xmax. 

Where are the mids LP'ed and at which slope? A 6.5" midrange should be good till about 2k before the off axis starts to really suffer.

Not trying to tell you what to do, but maybe some more experimentation could yield even better results?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> Yea, even 1.6k at 12 dB sounds kinda iffy. I mean even 800hz 12 dB down is a lot for 19mm of silk and almost 0 xmax.
> 
> Where are the mids LP'ed and at which slope? A 6.5" midrange should be good till about 2k before the off axis starts to really suffer.
> 
> Not trying to tell you what to do, but maybe some more experimentation could yield even better results?


I agree with you, John, and my post was more intended to get Mike the hell out of 1.2 kHz territory and moving upwards toward 2 kHz or so. Even at that frequency, I'd have to experiment with a 12 db slope before being entirely convinced that it wasn't straining the tweeters. When I run my Air Circs down at 1.6 kHz I'm always using 24 db / octave slopes.

Big Red's subwoofer / tweeter analogy was pretty funny and appropriate at the same time!


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Ok here is the little graph. lol. The fs is 600Hz. People said that the minimum you should cross over is 2x the fs. So that would be 1200 They dont say what slope though...? So I am at 1.6k with a 12 db slope. Does the shape at 12 db break anywhere in the shape of the natural rolloff. Would that be safe? Ill try 2k... I think thats when the mid rolls off.
What does straining sound like am I listening for pops or compression. What kind of instruments lie around 1.6 - 1.2 ?
Thanks.
Mike


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## 6262ms3 (Feb 27, 2008)

Nice review, I have the same car and was curious if you have a pic of how you mounted them? I didn't think there was enough room to flush-mount deeper tweets.


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## 4-way (Jul 9, 2009)

I have tried twice to upload a picture with frequency rankings of instruments, but became a message that the moderator "has to approve". So, I have to wait unless there is an other option to upload.


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## 4-way (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes, it worked!!!!


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Deton Nation said:


> Ok here is the little graph. lol. The fs is 600Hz. People said that the minimum you should cross over is 2x the fs. So that would be 1200 They dont say what slope though...? So I am at 1.6k with a 12 db slope. Does the shape at 12 db break anywhere in the shape of the natural rolloff. Would that be safe? Ill try 2k... I think thats when the mid rolls off.
> What does straining sound like am I listening for pops or compression. What kind of instruments lie around 1.6 - 1.2 ?
> Thanks.
> Mike


Hi Mike 

You can see the rolloff represented by the graph is pretty much 12 db / octave right on the money... Fs of 600 Hz and roughly 88 db amplitude and an octave later you're right at 300 Hz and about 75 or 76 db amplitude. The 2 x Fs thing is a fairly loose rule of thumb that doesn't necessarily apply across the board... e.g., my Air Circs are right around a 500 Hz Fs and my trying to run them at 1 kHz would be painful and probably result in driver failure if run at anything higher than a low volume level. On the other hand, I have some ATC SM75-150 midrange domes that have an Fs of 318 Hz and, in my car, they run down to 400 Hz very comfortably with a 24 db / octave slope.

If you do a search, there are charts that show instrument's frequency ranges.


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

6262ms3 said:


> Nice review, I have the same car and was curious if you have a pic of how you mounted them? I didn't think there was enough room to flush-mount deeper tweets.


What I did was I bored out a 1.75" hole in the center of the raised plastic tweeter grill, flattened out the edges a little. Rolled a log of that black sticky gum stuff under the surrounding lip of the tweeter and pushed the 2 together and it fits perfect. Ill see if I can get a snapshot tomorrow.


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

kevin k. said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> You can see the rolloff represented by the graph is pretty much 12 db / octave right on the money... Fs of 600 Hz and roughly 88 db amplitude and an octave later you're right at 300 Hz and about 75 or 76 db amplitude. The 2 x Fs thing is a fairly loose rule of thumb that doesn't necessarily apply across the board... e.g., my Air Circs are right around a 500 Hz Fs and my trying to run them at 1 kHz would be painful and probably result in driver failure if run at anything higher than a low volume level. On the other hand, I have some ATC SM75-150 midrange domes that have an Fs of 318 Hz and, in my car, they run down to 400 Hz very comfortably with a 24 db / octave slope.
> 
> If you do a search, there are charts that show instrument's frequency ranges.


Its seems that I could run 1.6 at 18db. At 2k it definitely sounded a little cleaner but had less detail it seemed and I thought I heard the bottom of some piano chopped off or seperated. At 1.6 and 12db on complex passages it did seem to lose a little focus and get a lil chaotic, by the 18 seemed to cure that. BUT.. it seemes that the 12db slope was much more open sounding than the 18db. So Im not sure what to do. I know I reversed the phase on the tweeters at 12, do you think switching the hp to 18 switched phase back? Maybe Ill try that tomorrow.


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

4-way said:


> Yes, it worked!!!!


Awesome! Ill have to print it and bring it to the car.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

I have a question....

The PRS tweeter that you mentioned.....was that ran active or with the passive crossover network? Reason I ask, based on your thoughts of the PRS tweeter Pioneer crossed them too low with the passive set up and if you will cross it at 4k it is actually not so bad.


Now as far as your scan tweeter I would bump it up in the 2.5-3.5k range and save it some of those 9 lives.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Deton Nation said:


> I am running 120w into the tweets with a Kenwood Class D *x4r *amp (its tiny, but sounds great.)


fixed


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

unpredictableacts said:


> I have a question....
> 
> The PRS tweeter that you mentioned.....was that ran active or with the passive crossover network? Reason I ask, based on your thoughts of the PRS tweeter Pioneer crossed them too low with the passive set up and if you will cross it at 4k it is actually not so bad.
> 
> ...


PRS: What was its crossed over in the passive? When run active for the short bit I ran it at 3k. If I ran it any higher wouldnt there be a gap with the PRS mid, It starts rolling off at 2K. Its out now anyway and not going back. 
Crossing over is not as easy as I thought... hopefully I dont cross over before I figure it out... lol


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Deton Nation said:


> Its seems that I could run 1.6 at 18db. At 2k it definitely sounded a little cleaner but had less detail it seemed and I thought I heard the bottom of some piano chopped off or seperated. At 1.6 and 12db on complex passages it did seem to lose a little focus and get a lil chaotic, by the 18 seemed to cure that. BUT.. it seemes that the 12db slope was much more open sounding than the 18db. So Im not sure what to do. I know I reversed the phase on the tweeters at 12, do you think switching the hp to 18 switched phase back? Maybe Ill try that tomorrow.


Hi Mike 

At this point, it might be a good idea to take a step back, catch your breath, and, if you are interested, have a look at a great information resource. The first link is general, and there's much to be found. The second link is more specific, and is a great primer on x-overs...

http://rane.com/library.html

Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Pics!


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Linkwitz-Riley Reprezent. So can I do 1.25 with a Linkwitz-Riley, or should I stick with 1.6?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Deton Nation said:


> Linkwitz-Riley Reprezent. So can I do 1.25 with a Linkwitz-Riley, or should I stick with 1.6?


I think what Kevin was trying to tell you with the info links is how active filtering works. Pretty sure your HU uses a L-R active filter (vs a butterworth). 

Maybe you're not quite grasping this, but a crossover doesn't turn a speaker off at your selected point; it attenuates it according to the chosen slope. If you try to run that tweeter at 1.25khz (which is pure stupidity IMHO) you better be sure that the next octave down (625 hz) is severely attenuated by a steep slope. You only have -24 dB on your HU, remember. 

A 12 dB slope at 1.25k means you're still playing 625 hz through your tweeters nearly half as loud (+/- 10 dB change = double/halve perceived loudness). No 19mm small format tweeter can play 625 hz for very long.

Here's my suggestion to know what's "best": unplug one side of your car (say right side). Just pull the RCA's on the right channels at your amp. Then listen to your left midrange and tweeter play together. Play a track with a strong center vocal (male?) and listen to what happens when you adjust...
- Mid LP xover point
- Mid LP slope
- Tweeter HP xover pt
- Tweeter HP slope
- Mid and tweeter combined xover points underlapped by 1/3 oct (ie mid at 2k, tweeter at 2.5k)
- Mid and tweeter combined slopes underlapped by 1/3 oct. Try all: 6,12,18, 24
- Mid and tweeter combined xover point and slopes sharing the same xover pt (ie 2k) and play with both slopes on both drivers.

The goal is to find the right spot where the vocal is the highest and most centered as possible within the abilities of each driver. Could be around 1.6k...could be at 3k.

I'm not too good at math, but there are A LOT of potential combinations there. And that's just ONE side of your car, you still have to tune the right side in the exact same manner.

Bottom line: We cannot tell you what's best - YOU have to find out for yourself. At the end of the day its the acoustic phase of the waves hitting your ears that matters. The electronic phase produced by the active filter will obviously will change the final outcome. 

And not to confuse you any more, but what you really should do is make sure both the left and right sides of your car are level matched within .1v if possible. This ensures that any filtering changes take place on an even field.


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

No I got the idea that the sound doesnt stop but slopes off. I will try what you suggested. 
I think I can mute the individual speakers at the HU too.. Thanks a lot for all your help. 
Mike


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes the 880 allows individual channel muting, but whatever you do please DO NOT hot swap your RCAs, it leads to issues.


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

I read something about that. It created grouding issues and you get a hum. No hum on mine. Knock on plastic.


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

OK Tell me if Im in good (safe territory) I did each side during my lunch hour and came up with 2.5k with a 12db slope on the tweets. 2K with an 18db slope for the mids. I noticed that when I did anything off of 12db for the tweets I lost a little brilliance. And when moving the mids close the info where the crossover was became garbled or maybe crossing each other... so 2K at 18 seemed perfect. I used Tori Amos from a disc I have and the highs sound crystal clear. 
I def dont want to blow the tweeters... but they do play loud. And stay open and uncompressed. I wonder how they will compare on the tweeter showdown on the 19th..
Nice.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Deton Nation said:


> OK Tell me if Im in good (safe territory) I did each side during my lunch hour and came up with 2.5k with a 12db slope on the tweets.


According to the FR graph, you should be in the "safe territory" as it does have good frequency response at 1.25khz..and you're way down at 625 hz (-24 dB). 

When the tweeter is mounted away from the mid by a certain distance, you will hear more tonal changes when adjusting slopes than if they are mounted near. That's one of the benefits of understanding how the crossover network works (ie the links Kevin posted).

BTW, I have the ring radiator version of the Illuminators and they are fukin kick ass. Enjoy them.


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## 6262ms3 (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks for the pics, I love how they don't look too fancy or scream "steal me!". These are pricey, but very tempting!


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

6262ms3 said:


> Thanks for the pics, I love how they don't look too fancy or scream "steal me!". These are pricey, but very tempting!


Though hearing them says steal me. Yeah I have everything stealth in my car.. .
I need an electric fence around it lol


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## Deton Nation (Jul 3, 2009)

Question: SHould I be using the same slope on each side of the crossover point? Can you mix and match or should they be the same?
Thanks.
Mike


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## VaVroom1 (Dec 2, 2005)

Deton Nation said:


> Question: SHould I be using the same slope on each side of the crossover point? Can you mix and match or should they be the same?
> Thanks.
> Mike


in a nutshell, mix and match to whatever sounds right. rules are just guidelines.


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