# Dsp or no dsp? Is the juice worth the squeeze



## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey guys,

Long time car audio nut, mostly been into spl but now as I appreciate music more, I'm going for a more sq balanced setup.

Where I'm at:

Brand new 2016 Toyota Tacoma. Keeping be stock head unit due to factory integration. I have two sd2 8's that I'll run sealed, hat unity front comps bridged off a arc xdi 1100.5 (passive) I was planning on just going high level straight into the amp, but have been thinking of utilizing a dsp. 

I am not looking for a sq winning car, just something that sounds good. I would be going with the alpine pxa-h800. Is it worth the money and effort to use a dsp for a daily driven vehicle?

Thanks
Zach


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Dbl.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Yes

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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Since you want to keep the factory HU and you want good sound quality. A DSP is the better option.


Just be prepared to learn how to tune and spend hours with a 30 band eq per channel, time align, choosing slopes, level match channels, proper crossing points for each driver and a good 5 channel amplifier, or up to 3 to have 8 channels if you choose to have rear speakers. Maybe a 5 Ch to drive tweeters, midbass and sub, and a 2 channel for rear speakers. Better yet bridge 4 channels for the midbass, and use another 4 ch amp for the tweeters and rears, or maybe some will recommend to go with a 3 way front and sub, no rears, more difficult to tune and install.

If no extra time is available, hire a good pro to help you.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

All that sounds great and all, I'm going to stick to the single 5 channel amp. Not trying to go crazy on this install. Want simplicity as much as possible. I hear the alpine has a very good automated correction program that I can fine tune. Going to stay passive on the front set bridged off the 4 channels and run the sub off the 5th channel, no rear speaker amplification needed. Not worried about my rear passengers


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes its worth a few extra oranges.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Alpine is a good choice for me, yes? I have some friends who know how to tune so in the end I'll be fine no matter what. New toys


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Removing the passives, will provide way more flexibility for tuning, stage, better time alignment more power and control of each channel.

Having a set of components, and running with passive networks with just 2 channels instead of 4, would be a waste for such a nice processor.

Not only the stage will be more centered, with more effective TA, and idividual ch EQ and output levels, but more power will be used more efficiently.

Staying passive is a choice, it's easier but it will have limitations to tune and make it sound better.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Understood. I am a little intimidated by running active. I would do it if it really is worth it, and I guess I could get the gains set and it close with imprint and then have my buddy finish the tuning. 

Is the unity set good for running active?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I'll put it this way... I won't do an audio install without a processor any more. I'd rather compromise EVERYWHERE else. When you are able to get the massive peaks and dips (caused by the car cabin shape, size, materials, etc) smoothed out and get closer to a target curve, the sound difference is beyond massive.

I used to be an auto-EQ kinda guy (like MS-8, Pioneer head units, etc) but since fooling with the MiniDSP 6x8 and using REW with a Umik, I won't go back. I might still use auto EQ units but I will continue to measure and adjust with REW for sure. It really helps you understand what is going on.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

For me, at my levels, a dsp is the first thing to install.
You could start with an ms8, real easy to get great results.
Then study/optimize with rew, training for later (or not!)


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## Donanon (Sep 13, 2013)

After spending a fair amount of money and time chasing SQ by buying new and different drivers, changing installs, HU's etc. I bought a DSP and began to tune my set up instead of changing it. If I say that a DSP saved my sanity I would not be exaggerating, it rescued me from Audio Nervosa Syndrome.

IMO a processor should be amoung ones first purchases and whilst deciding upon and implementing your set up you can take some time to learn to use the software.


D.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I think the trick with DSP is to find one that you're comfortable with, honestly. Lucky for you, the market is much larger than it has ever been, and the variety is astounding. I'm still waiting for an FIR, 12+ channel, center/surround logic-mapped processor to hit the market, but I'd say we're closer now than we've ever been.


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## Kriszilla (Jul 1, 2013)

stangman67 said:


> Alpine is a good choice for me, yes? I have some friends who know how to tune so in the end I'll be fine no matter what. New toys


I've owned the Alpine PXA-H800 and it's a nice unit, but I'd go with the new car-version of the MiniDSP. For the price of the Alpine + its controller, you can get the MiniDSP, its remote volume controller, a calibrated mic (I recommend the calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum Labs), and still have money left over. 

The tuning software, REW (Room EQ Wizard) is free, and you just need a cheap Windows laptop that you can drag into the car with you.


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## Kriszilla (Jul 1, 2013)

fourthmeal said:


> I'm still waiting for an FIR, 12+ channel, center/surround logic-mapped processor to hit the market, but I'd say we're closer now than we've ever been.


Don't tease. I'd be first in line to buy that.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Kriszilla said:


> I've owned the Alpine PXA-H800 and it's a nice unit, but I'd go with the new car-version of the MiniDSP. For the price of the Alpine + its controller, you can get the MiniDSP, its remote volume controller, a calibrated mic (I recommend the calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum Labs), and still have money left over.
> 
> The tuning software, REW (Room EQ Wizard) is free, and you just need a cheap Windows laptop that you can drag into the car with you.


Agreed, I have a youtube video or two of it in action, if you want to see what it can do.


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## Kriszilla (Jul 1, 2013)

fourthmeal said:


> Agreed, I have a youtube video or two of it in action, if you want to see what it can do.


Oh, I know what they can do. I used to run the big-board MiniDSP 2x8 in my car. I moved it to home theater to allow me finer granularity over what Audyssey gives me with the pair of ported 18's I'm running in there. 

Everything that MiniDSP makes is pretty stellar.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

I would not be getting the remote controller for the Alpine. I want to set everything up and just let it be. I don't want different profiles and all that.

I had looked into the minidsp 6x8, and it looks very nice for the money. I am just a bit overwhelmed by all the tuning parameters and I don't want to buy this dsp and in the end not tune it right and not be happy. That is why I was leaning towards the alpine with its built in Imprint correction, So many decisions. 

SO I guess I will be buying a DSP, the minidsp is attractive for the price. Just unsure if I want to put so much time into tuning and retuning etc


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## Kriszilla (Jul 1, 2013)

stangman67 said:


> I would not be getting the remote controller for the Alpine. I want to set everything up and just let it be. I don't want different profiles and all that.


The Alpine won't even power up without the remote connected.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Kriszilla said:


> The Alpine won't even power up without the remote connected.


Well damn, since it was sold separately it seemed to me that it was just an option. Alpine should make it very clear it requires something else to make it work. Guess that changes things a lot for me.


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## dannyboyy14 (Jun 29, 2009)

Dude, the juice is definitely worth the squeeze. I had an Mx5000 went to a DRZ and never looked back brah. lol. The crossover is the best SQ value ever!


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Is the HAT unity component system a good candidate for active? I already have it ordered but should be able to change if need be.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

stangman67 said:


> I would not be getting the remote controller for the Alpine. I want to set everything up and just let it be. I don't want different profiles and all that.
> 
> I had looked into the minidsp 6x8, and it looks very nice for the money. I am just a bit overwhelmed by all the tuning parameters and I don't want to buy this dsp and in the end not tune it right and not be happy. That is why I was leaning towards the alpine with its built in Imprint correction, So many decisions.
> 
> SO I guess I will be buying a DSP, the minidsp is attractive for the price. Just unsure if I want to put so much time into tuning and retuning etc


It DOES require time but you can learn with it. Remember, it won't sound WORSE, like if you keep it flat and just mess with crossover, time alignment, etc. You can always tune at the level you want to, revert to an original tune, and so on. I would say go for it, get a umik-1, crank up REW and dive in. Jazzi, Hanatsu, Captainobvious, and a few others got me on track and kicking ass in a very complex build I did recently. There is a learning curve but don't fear it...embrace it!


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Okay looks like I'll be picking up the MINIDSP and a Umik mic. 

I've been watching videos on tuning for the last hour. One quick question, first step before tuning anything should be set amp gains to max level without clipping correct? I'm going to pick up a DD1 to help on that one. With the gain levels on the amp and the gain levels on the dap, I assume you normalize the gains on the amp first and adjust everything after that with the DSP?


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## ninetysix (Dec 6, 2009)

Unless your amps are of questionable quality and are known to not put out their rated power without clipping, then set them with a DMM and a 0dB test tone. You might find that you're having to make serious cuts to some of your drivers across the board to achieve your desired curve, that's where you can back the gains off. Be sure to keep an eye on your input and output meters too, this helps to keep your gain structure in check.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

The amp is high quality. I just ordered the minidsp c-dsp 6x8 and UNIK-1 microphone.


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## ninetysix (Dec 6, 2009)

You won't regret it


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

stangman67 said:


> The amp is high quality. I just ordered the minidsp c-dsp 6x8 and UNIK-1 microphone.


Excellent, remember that there's some customs fees that will come separately from the shipper (Fedex in my case), if you bought direct from MiniDSP. It isn't much (and it is certainly cheaper than buying from Madisound), but just be aware. Also, remember that the Umik-1 has a cal file which will be DL'd directly from Minidsp's website, just enter in your serial number and DL the file, which you'll use in REW all the time. 

You'll also want to dig into the REW thread(s) and learn the basic mechanics, and how to set up curves. DL Jazzi's extremely helpful spreadsheet software. 

On the subject of gains, honestly I let hiss be my guide. This sounds dumb but true. I didn't use dB meters or anything like that to do setup, I went by ear and then level-matched with my sweeps to get in the ballpark of my intended target curve (Hanatsu curve with some tiny tweaks, sort of in between Jazzi's and Hanatsu, and then adjusted by hand at the end.) 

Remember the 6x8 has input and output DSP, with the input capable of "only" 6 PEQ's total, while the output has 6 per channel x 8. But that input PEQ is particularly great at handling last-second adjustments, or maybe if you feel like you need to fix up your input signal some. I used it to match up my left and right signals closer together after setting up a difference comparison between the two channels.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Not worried about the custom fees. I was feeling more confident after watching these videos, but a lot of what you just typed is completely foreign to me


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

stangman67 said:


> Not worried about the custom fees. I was feeling more confident after watching these videos, but a lot of what you just typed is completely foreign to me


Let's see if I can help:

Jazzi's thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...1-jazzis-tuning-companion-room-eq-wizard.html

Hanatsu's awesome thread
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...first-timers-guide-measuring-your-system.html

Lets see if that gets you back.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Thank you! I will look through those threads today! I have lots of time to prepare, a few weeks of deployment left and a few months until I move across country and then I'll start the install


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## geshat00 (Jun 1, 2016)

stangman67 said:


> Understood. I am a little intimidated by running active. I would do it if it really is worth it, and I guess I could get the gains set and it close with imprint and then have my buddy finish the tuning.
> 
> Is the unity set good for running active?


Ppi makes a nice 5 channel (900.5)

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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Already have an arc xdi 1100.5


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

You can get great sound without a DSP and you can get great sound with a DSP, it's a double edged sword..

Choosing the right components will allow you to keep it simple and still get great sound without a DSP and using a DSP will allow you to fine tune and tailor the sound even more..

I don't use a dedicated DSP and quite (extremely) satisfied without it, my head unit has limited processing and does a fine job..

If it was me i would start with 2-way front plus sub and run everything active and if you're still not happy add a DSP to the mix..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gstokes said:


> You can get great sound without a DSP and you can get great sound with a DSP, it's a double edged sword..
> 
> Choosing the right components will allow you to keep it simple and still get great sound without a DSP and using a DSP will allow you to fine tune and tailor the sound even more..
> 
> ...


in order to get great sound (im talking about overall great, not great to you or me) without a dsp, your install has to be bat **** crazy, like the crazy ones from the 90s. seats all the way back, major interior modifications, etc etc. hold that thought of yours until you can hear a few proper setups vs a basic yet respectable install. the difference is honestly still night and day and i cannot express that enough


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

I went ahead and downloaded REW software and the MINIDSP software and played around with the MINIDSP software for awhile, not nearly as intimidating as I though it would be. PEQ seems to make eqing better, and I like the input EQ so I can correct signals easily coming from my OEM Head unit.


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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Quick question, I have the HAT unity set on order, how much is moving up to the Clarus going to net me. Financially Legatia is out of the running, so at this point has to be Unity or Clarus.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

stangman67 said:


> Quick question, I have the HAT unity set on order, how much is moving up to the Clarus going to net me. Financially Legatia is out of the running, so at this point has to be Unity or Clarus.


On order as in already paid for?

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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Ordered as in paid for, not yet shipped to me. Unable to return as I bought as part of a promotion. So can only switch out for credit, hence having to stay with HAT.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I'd just go with those for now

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## stangman67 (Apr 8, 2009)

Okay sounds good. And your ultimate recommendation in the 400-500 range would be? Is there anything wrong with the Clarus set? I'd like to do this once (right) and not have to redo it all. Ultimately I could always buy whatever set and resell once I get them at a small loss. 

Thanks,
Zach


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

stangman67 said:


> I went ahead and downloaded REW software and the MINIDSP software and played around with the MINIDSP software for awhile, not nearly as intimidating as I though it would be. PEQ seems to make eqing better, and I like the input EQ so I can correct signals easily coming from my OEM Head unit.



Not just PEQ... BIQUAD! With a biquad, you can take the coefficients directly from REW's autoEQ output, and just copy-paste or import the text files. That's when things get really amazing.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Go with the Clarus. That is a great set that will be able to play cleaner and louder easier.


And yes, one thing is getting great sound from decent speakers, another thing is enjoying great sound not noticing or localizing the sound is coming from the speakers


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