# Dynaudio Esotar 2 1200, what do the you think ?



## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

I was just wanting to hear from owners of this sub. 

Is the output on them enough for some bass heavy hiphop ?

I ask because Im really thinking about getting a pair of them. Ive listened to them a few times, and really like there SQ, but find there output to be little on the low end. 

Could this be the way they were setup, or is that just the way are ?

Im not looking for something that will rip my face off. Just some very clean tight bass that get loud for those few times when I just want to crank it up. 

I know they are rated at 400 watts RMS. Is this pretty accurate or can they handle a little more from a good clean amp like Zapco ?

Thanks 
Roger


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## lyttleviet (Sep 11, 2008)

You sound like you should definitely consider the Hertz ML3000. Great SQ, very responsive, Plenty of output, small efficient box specs.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

Ive listened to the Hertz stuff, and your right, they sound great. 

They are my second choice.


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

roger21087 said:


> Ive listened to the Hertz stuff, and your right, they sound great.
> 
> They are my second choice.


lol and why then??


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## lyttleviet (Sep 11, 2008)

Have you considered the Morel Ultimo? That should be up there as well...


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

In the listening that I did with one I was highly impressed! It was in a mid sized box, with +- 600 watts ish, facing rear in a G35 Sedan. It was super clean and transparent, awesome output, and a real pleasure to listen to. I thought it blended very well with the front stage. I think the 1200 is the 12" SQ sub reference right now.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

I have also lietned to the Morel Ultimo. At one point I had even been considering a full Morel setup with Morel tweets, mids, and subs. Then I heard some Dyn esotar2 mids and tweets, and the Morels were out. The ultimo is a good sounding sub, but after having listened to the Dyn and the Morel with the same amp, I like the sound of the Dyn better. 

I like everything about the Dyn 1200 so far, but I judt dont know how loud they can get. Im not a bass nut, and rarely tunr my music out loud, but when your paying 1500.00 for a sub, I sort of expect it to be more than a one trick pony that sounds GREAT at low levels, but then falls short when you turn up the volume. 

I'm 99.99% percent decided on the Dyns. I guess I just wanted to have a realistic expectation for there output, so that when I get them, I wont be expecting something that they can't deliver.


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

I wouldn't worry too much about output when the sound quality they offer fits your needs. The right enclosure should yield excellent results, I don't think Dyn's ever disappoint in any aspect.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

roger21087 said:


> I have also lietned to the Morel Ultimo. At one point I had even been considering a full Morel setup with Morel tweets, mids, and subs. Then I heard some Dyn esotar2 mids and tweets, and the Morels were out. The ultimo is a good sounding sub, but after having listened to the Dyn and the Morel with the same amp, I like the sound of the Dyn better.
> 
> I like everything about the Dyn 1200 so far, but I judt dont know how loud they can get. Im not a bass nut, and rarely tunr my music out loud, but when your paying 1500.00 for a sub, I sort of expect it to be more than a one trick pony that sounds GREAT at low levels, but then falls short when you turn up the volume.
> 
> I'm 99.99% percent decided on the Dyns. I guess I just wanted to have a realistic expectation for there output, so that when I get them, I wont be expecting something that they can't deliver.



There's no sub on earth worth 1500 bux. Look into the JL Audio 12w7 for the perfect blend of SQ and SPL.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

Cam, it must have been my car you heard it in.

The Esotar is certainly an incredible speaker. It does a lot of simple and little things so well, that it makes you fall in love with it again and again.

However, it doesn't sound like it's the speaker for you. A sub like the Esotar will take sloppy sounding bass, which is what is in most hip hop songs, and make it sound true to form; sloppy. Other subs that lack the type of clarity the Esotar has will hide those flaws.

It's also not a hip hop bass dropping, trunk rattling sub. It's more of a snare drum, kick drum, natural sounding bass recordings sub, that hits these notes with the perfect authority. It's not low, it's not loud, it's smooth and authoritative. 

Even at it's maximum output, the sub is so incredibly smooth it doesn't seem as loud as a similarly powered low end sub. No rumble, noise, just silky smooth bass at any output.

It's amazingly enjoyable on smooth r&b and rock songs, but it may not have the bass output you would like on some Lil Jon bass track with overproduced bass.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> There's no sub on earth worth 1500 bux. Look into the JL Audio 12w7 for the perfect blend of SQ and SPL.




Seriously?


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> There's no sub on earth worth 1500 bux. Look into the JL Audio 12w7 for the perfect blend of SQ and SPL.


If that's the case, get the SPG555, even better.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks for all the input guys. 

I think Ive found the perfect solution. 

Im going with TWO esotar 1200s. That should give me the SQ I need, and volume I want


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

^^^ you will be in subbass heaven!!


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

roger21087 said:


> Thanks for all the input guys.
> 
> I think Ive found the perfect solution.
> 
> Im going with TWO esotar 1200s. That should give me the SQ I need, and volume I want



If you have the coin, and don't mind spending it, there is no better option.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

I use the Esotar sub daily and enjoy the more I do. I think MrDave and Camshaft coered its points Very well. This sub will really shine 20-50 with every bit of authority while maintaining integrity every bit of the way.

Just recently finished a Porsche Cayenne with a single one and the owner is in aural bliss daily. Working on an E55 AMG with a pair IB now and I have Absolutely no doubt the owner will be floored.

Have no fear with this sub, it certainly has the capability to play quite loud with ease. Got a bit of power on tap? Feed it and rest assured it will handle it effortlessly.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

lyttleviet said:


> You sound like you should definitely consider the Hertz ML3000. Great SQ, very responsive, Plenty of output, small efficient box specs.





lyttleviet said:


> Have you considered the Morel Ultimo? That should be up there as well...


Neither of these are even in the same league. Although the fact that you try to sell both may have clouded your judgement.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Oh, c'mon. I'm going to call ******** here. 

I'm all for spending as much money as you can afford on your front stage. If you can afford Esotar IIs for your front stage, go for it! We're talking subwoofers here. How many octaves do they produce vs your front stage?

It's a subwoofer. It goes boom. I think I can hear more difference between amps than I can subs. People say you can't hear a difference between good speakers and bad speakers above 50 mph. ********. I can hear a big difference. Where I can't hear a difference is subs. They all sound virtually the same to me, certainly not enough to warrant $1,500. That's just ridiculous. What golden eared audiophile can swear that he hears a difference between an Ultimo or Hertz Mille in the ideal enclosure for all three? Maybe if one is in the wrong enclosure, ok.

Bear in mind that this is coming from someone with two of the only 10" subs that were more expensive than the Dynaudio (I just didn't pay list price for them--1/6th list price actually).

To the OP, if you are actually going to consider spending $1,500 on a subwoofer, yes I would get two. My subs only take 300w each so just having one is a little taxing. Two makes for effortless bass.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

I don't understand how people DON'T hear a difference. It has nothing to do with a golden ear. If you think subwoofers just go boom, then you haven't owned the right subwoofers.

Transient response, linearity, tonality, these words apply to subwoofers for a reason. The Esotar sets the benchmark for what those words should mean.

While the price is high, I'm almost glad it is. If it wasn't, everyone would be rolling around with an Esotar. Cars are all just rubber, metal, and plastic, they all should cost the same and drive the same, right? Nope. Design, performance, prestige.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

MrDave said:


> I don't understand how people DON'T hear a difference. It has nothing to do with a golden ear. If you think subwoofers just go boom, then you haven't owned the right subwoofers.
> 
> Transient response, linearity, tonality, these words apply to subwoofers for a reason. The Esotar sets the benchmark for what those words should mean.
> 
> While the price is high, I'm almost glad it is. If it wasn't, everyone would be rolling around with an Esotar. Cars are all just rubber, metal, and plastic, they all should cost the same and drive the same, right? Nope. Design, performance, prestige.


What are the "right" subwoofers to own? Dynaudio is a brand that people name drop in order to look like audiophiles. Effortless bass is simple and a product of displacement and 2 12w7's would thoroughly dismantle 2 Esotars when it comes to displacement.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Oh, c'mon. I'm going to call ******** here.
> 
> I'm all for spending as much money as you can afford on your front stage. If you can afford Esotar IIs for your front stage, go for it! We're talking subwoofers here. How many octaves do they produce vs your front stage?
> 
> ...


I guess this is why some are willing to drop the cash on this type of sub, and others aren't. If you cant tell a difference, then no, theres no point in buying it, no matter what other people say. 

I've listened to all kinds of subs, everything in JLs range, Hertz, Rockford, Morel, kicker. And I can honestly tell you that I can hear a differnce. In some of the lowere end subs, the bass is just sloppy and boomy. Sure they got loud but that was about it. 

Are the Dyns (or any other high end sub) really so much better than other to justify the price difference ? That depends on who you ask. The law of deminishing returns kicks in at some point, and though a 100.00 sub will be twice as good as a 50.00, a 1500.00 sub probably isnt twice as good as a 750.00 sub. As one of the above posters answered, you pay a lot more for that little extra. 

I guess in the end, what you pay for anything is only worth it if you think it is. We shouldn't get carried away by just the price tag. Simply because something is more expensive doesn't mean its better.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> What are the "right" subwoofers to own? Dynaudio is a brand that people name drop in order to look like audiophiles. Effortless bass is simple and a product of displacement and 2 12w7's would thoroughly dismantle 2 Esotars when it comes to displacement.


The 12W7s, are great subs. I used to have two of them in my last truck and I REALLY liked them. They had good SQ and could get real loud. For the money I cant think of another sub I would rather have. 

That being said, I've listened to recordings that I listened to a lot on the W7s, and played them over the Dyns, and the quality of the Dyns is better IMO. 

Comparing only price, are the Dyns twice as good as the W7s ? probably not. Is a 500,000.00 Enzo ten times better than a Corvette ? Probably not. But the added performance is worth the premium to some, and to others it isnt.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

It's amazing that this thread is even putting a W7 on the same playing field as the Esotar. 

Before the Esotar, I had two JL w6v2's in my car. I even owned a JL w7 at one point. I found the w6's to sound better than the w7, and even then, the Esotar literally shat all over the w6's. I can't possibly express that any greater.

Then, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I did an A/B comparison with the w6's next to the Esotar, and it was actually hilarious to me what I had been listening to before.

Is the margin of difference between the Esotar, Ultimo, or Mille less? Yes. But there is still quite a difference.

Now, the debate of whether the price is appropriate and whatnot, that's all opinion. I understand you may be able to achieve 80% of the performance for half the cost, maybe even a third of the cost. However, I am willing to pay top dollar for that last 20% of performance, and so are others. Nothing is actually priced because of the sum of it's parts. It's priced due to it's uniqueness. By myself, as well as many, the Esotar is considered one of the best, if not the best subwoofer across the lands right now. Can I build one? Nope. So I have to pay top dollar for it. Capitalism at it's finest.

And yes, I love to name drop DynAudio so I look like an audiophile. I never even heard of DynAudio until it was in my car. If I though it wasn't good, it would be out of my car. You can't have a single discussion on these forums anymore without someone saying, "An amp is an amp because a watt is a watt" or "bass is bass". It really makes me wonder what type of car audio experience those people really have.


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## killerb87 (Oct 24, 2008)

i heard the ultimo and its hard for me to believe the dyn is that much better. i will have to hear it to believe it. for $1500 i can get two ultimos.


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## Locke (May 29, 2007)

killerb87 said:


> i heard the ultimo and its hard for me to believe the dyn is that much better. i will have to hear it to believe it. for $1500 i can get two ultimos.


more like 3


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## Silvercar (Apr 21, 2008)

For those of you that have or are using the Dyn esotar2 1200 what box type and size and power are you using?


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

What would you do with three Ultimo's? I just need one good sub. 

Speak to users who have owned both the Ultimo and the Esotar, and they will tell you everytime that the Dyn is better. 

I've never heard the Ultimo, so I couldn't tell you.


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

Silvercar said:


> For those of you that have or are using the Dyn esotar2 1200 what box type and size and power are you using?



Sealed, 1.25 I believe.

Powered by TRU 2200 w/ Burr Brown. Giving it 650 watts atleast.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Locke said:


> more like 3


Not even two, since theyre $899/per. Two Ultiomos is still more than a single Esotar.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=427738


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

roger21087 said:


> I've listened to all kinds of subs, everything in JLs range, Hertz, Rockford, Morel, kicker. And I can honestly tell you that I can hear a differnce. In some of the lowere end subs, the bass is just sloppy and boomy. Sure they got loud but that was about it.
> 
> Are the Dyns (or any other high end sub) really so much better than other to justify the price difference ? That depends on who you ask. The law of deminishing returns kicks in at some point, and though a 100.00 sub will be twice as good as a 50.00, a 1500.00 sub probably isnt twice as good as a 750.00 sub. As one of the above posters answered, you pay a lot more for that little extra.
> 
> I guess in the end, what you pay for anything is only worth it if you think it is. We shouldn't get carried away by just the price tag. Simply because something is more expensive doesn't mean its better.


Don't get me wrong. I'm all for paying more if you get something out of it. Sometimes you do need to pay twice the price to get that elusive last 5% of perfection. That's why I completely support paying anything you can afford for your front stage. I guess my point is that I can barely distinguish between subs as it is. I sure don't see any reason to pay $1,500 for it.

Absolutely the only difference I can tell between subs is that some sound boomier than others (and the boomy ones were all uber-cheap $100 subs, not anything of even modest quality). I have heard one sub go from great to boomy depending on the enclosure. That's why I can't say the differences I hear in subs isn't almost completely dependent on the enclosure, and not the actual sub.

Obviously I need a sound-off, because I can't tell the difference between them anyway. The one exception was my old Sunfire Super Jr. HT sub. It would get loud as hell, but it was muddy and little more than a one note wonder. No sub I've ever had in my car ever sounded bad like that though.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Most boomy setups are boomy because the sub is crossed too high due to a lack of midbass. I think proper midbass integration is one of those area's in car audio that are overlooked.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

For those that dont believe the Dyns are that much better than the Morels, Hertz, or JLs, I beg you, go listen to them. I mean really listen. 

The others are great subs, theres no arguing that, but for those that think a sub is a sub, you will benefit from hearing the Dyns. Its hard to understand how something can be better until you've heard it. 

Kind of like you might think a Mustang GT is fast until you get in a Porsche or Covette. Once you've raised you point of reference it becomes easier to find the short comings of other products. 

A word of warning though, once you've heard the 1200, you may find yourself let down by other subs. You hear others that sound very good, but in the back of your mind, you know that theres better out there. 

The only question that remains is, are you willing to drop the cash to get the better option.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

roger21087 said:


> For those that dont believe the Dyns are that much better than the Morels, Hertz, or JLs, I beg you, go listen to them. I mean really listen.
> 
> The others are great subs, theres no arguing that, but for those that think a sub is a sub, you will benefit from hearing the Dyns. Its hard to understand how something can be better until you've heard it.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely not out to change your mind because I respect your ability to buy what you want. That would be a fruitless endeavor .

You can't deny the physics of it, however . Someone described a subwoofer as an air pump which is true. The more air you move the more bass you get. It's that simple. 

As far as the "sound" of bass is concerned, "clean" subwoofers routinely approach double digit THD numbers . How do you reduce this? More displacement. You're not going to get much quality "sound" otherwise . 

As I stated earlier, it's about midbass integration . I think JL dropped the ball by introducing a competent midbass shortly after the introduction of the w7. Combine the sub with a good midbass system and you get excellent bass.


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## killerb87 (Oct 24, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Not even two, since theyre $899/per. Two Ultiomos is still more than a single Esotar.


not here.
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=6456


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

woofersetc = debbil


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

killerb87 said:


> not here.
> http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=6456


Yes ! Because they are a legitimate seller. 

Aside from that everyone is talking about the SRP of the Esotar 1200, so it's only fair to bring in the SRP of the Ultimo.


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## dyno (Jan 15, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> TEAM HOMOCIDAL BASS OXYGEN


Maybe it's a Freudian slip but it's spelled "homicidal"....unless we're going with the Urban Dictionary definition.


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## rjcastr (May 17, 2007)

im with mr mooble on this one folks. I understand the point you folks are trying to make, but it is just bass folks. I have heard a great subwoofer in a crappy enclosure and i have heard a decent sub in a great enclosure sturdy solid , sealed to perfection, zero cancellation and let me tell you, enclosure, enclosure, enclosure!!!, bass is bass and yes we can take in to consideration power, frequency and musicality but , the enclosure will make 70% of the sound quality you are looking for.

Front stage a different story


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## rjcastr (May 17, 2007)

roger21087 said:


> For those that dont believe the Dyns are that much better than the Morels, Hertz, or JLs, I beg you, go listen to them. I mean really listen.
> 
> The others are great subs, theres no arguing that, but for those that think a sub is a sub, you will benefit from hearing the Dyns. Its hard to understand how something can be better until you've heard it.
> 
> ...



there is no denying that dyn makes amazing product, but i have to disagree when it comes to bass. Physics is physics and frequencies are frequencies, bass response and the way your bass will sound is dependant on many factors but mostly on enclosure, enclosure, enclosure! 
did i say that already. Installation is the most important factor in a system.


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## juba (Aug 4, 2007)

rjcastr said:


> there is no denying that dyn makes amazing product, but i have to disagree when it comes to bass. Physics is physics and frequencies are frequencies, bass response and the way your bass will sound is dependant on many factors but mostly on enclosure, enclosure, enclosure!
> did i say that already. Installation is the most important factor in a system.


Agreed good point. What your saying is most people would be better off to put more emphasise on building a better box to get better performance.

However I think this debate is among people which are trying for the absolute highest performance, and will be trying for the best enclosure that they can build anyway, leaving the only variable being the performance of the driver.

Keep the debate coming!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

dyno said:


> Maybe it's a Freudian slip but it's spelled "homicidal"....unless we're going with the Urban Dictionary definition.


Thanks for the contribution !


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## rjcastr (May 17, 2007)

juba said:


> Agreed good point. What your saying is most people would be better off to put more emphasise on building a better box to get better performance.
> 
> However I think this debate is among people which are trying for the absolute highest performance, and will be trying for the best enclosure that they can build anyway, leaving the only variable being the performance of the driver.
> 
> Keep the debate coming!


I understand Juba,

but lets put this in perspective, what range does a subwoofer play, what kind of enclosure is it going in and most importantly, what kind of car. Its very possible that this gentlemen heard it in a hatch back, that itself will cause the bass to sound different and way louder its like having a box within a box. 

There are so many factors but vehicle location, if the box is built right, if there is any cancellation then we get in to frequencies and how you want the sub to play, with all and all, I would bet that if you were to take a Hertz subwoofer at 300 and install it as perfect as anyone can install it with a good built box, solid rock, sealed enclosure dynamat the trunk, same vehicle and were to do the same thing witha $1500 dyn or any other brand sub, it would be almost impossible to notice a difference. Of course we are talking optimal installation for its respective sub.

I'm not saying that dynauadio product is horrible, nor that they are not a quality product because they are incredible, just like Morel, Scanspeak etc etc.

A while back i heard a system play in a car audio shop, this kid had built an optimal enclosure, solid as a rock. He asked me to sit in his beat up car , the system was flawless, tuned to perfection and the bass was incredible, tight, loud and very musical, response was really great. 

When he asked me what i thought he had in the trunk i said 2 10" or maybe 1 12".

He then told me lets take a look, he opened his trunk and he had an 8" subwoofer in this intricate box design, i was left in aw!!!

Installation is everything he showed me the process he took to build the box and it was quite impressive, braced and everything, the price for that box at that time was like 500, at least thats what he was asking to build and another 75 to design it. Too much for my pocket but since then i have heard a few SQ subs and some are great and some are not so great, nevertheless, it was impressive to see how this generic sub performed so optimal.

Ok im done!!!


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## killerb87 (Oct 24, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Yes ! Because they are a legitimate seller.
> 
> Aside from that everyone is talking about the SRP of the Esotar 1200, so it's only fair to bring in the SRP of the Ultimo.


whats not legitimate about them? i have ordered from them and have gotten great service and fast shipping.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

killerb87 said:


> whats not legitimate about them? i have ordered from them and have gotten great service and fast shipping.


They are great for consumers who know what they want, bad for dealers. They have great customer service as far as I'm concerned. I've always had good experiences with them. They are legitimate dealers for a few products too.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

killerb87 said:


> whats not legitimate about them? i have ordered from them and have gotten great service and fast shipping.


 Their not permitted to ship or for that matter even sell the majority of lines they have listed. No manufacturers warranty support. Who even knows where the product is sourced from? Fell off the back of the truck, pulled when the boats arrive at the docks? Transhipped from other dealers? Refurbed boxed as new? The list goes on, but the bottom line is that theyre not permitted by the manufacturer to sell.

To go a step further some of those lines are not permitted for shipping by even a legitimate retailer and Morel would be a prime example.


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

I completely agree that the enclosure can be just as important, and in some occasions even more important. 

But when comparing these level of subwoofers, you should have already taken this into account, and tested the speakers in enclosures best suited for that particular driver. 

I also agree that once you put any speaker in the proper box that difference in SQ might not be so great, but there is a difference. That marginal improvement in SQ may not be worth the price to some, but please dont try and deny that there are subs that are better made and have better SQ than others.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

roger21087 said:


> but please dont try and deny that there are subs that are better made and have better SQ than others.


Better made, absolutely!

I'm just trying to figure out what better SQ sounds like in a sub. The only time I can hear a difference at all is between super el-cheapo subs and good subs. I seriously doubt I can hear a difference between two good subs in the proper enclosure.


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## killerb87 (Oct 24, 2008)

Mooble said:


> They are great for consumers who know what they want, bad for dealers. They have great customer service as far as I'm concerned. I've always had good experiences with them. They are legitimate dealers for a few products too.


i agree.


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> Their not permitted to ship or for that matter even sell the majority of lines they have listed. No manufacturers warranty support. Who even knows where the product is sourced from? Fell off the back of the truck, pulled when the boats arrive at the docks? Transhipped from other dealers? Refurbed boxed as new? The list goes on, but the bottom line is that theyre not permitted by the manufacturer to sell.
> 
> To go a step further some of those lines are not permitted for shipping by even a legitimate retailer and Morel would be a prime example.


Gettem Don!!!


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## jmlaudio (Mar 24, 2007)

For any of you who would like to hear the Dynaudio 1200 or in our case a pair of them we have them available to audition in our demo room! Shortly in another vehicle as well! We also have the Esotar2 component set. And finally the Esotec systems 362 and 242. JML Audio of St. Louis is becoming the Dynaudio center of the U.S. We look forward to your visit.


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

jmlaudio said:


> JML Audio of St. Louis is becoming the Dynaudio center of the U.S.


Sorry the Dynaudio center of the US is in NJ..... no offense!


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

Ha, indeed.


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## jmlaudio (Mar 24, 2007)

No offense taken. Not to get in a geography discussion. The key word here was CENTER as in the middle of the country. NJ the last time I checked was on the East coast. You can have the side, we'll take the middle.


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## killerb87 (Oct 24, 2008)

jmlaudio, you guys do great work.


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

jmlaudio said:


> No offense taken. Not to get in a geography discussion. The key word here was CENTER as in the middle of the country. NJ the last time I checked was on the East coast. You can have the side, we'll take the middle.


I just thought the implication was "the only place" to get Dynaudio. Misunderstanding indeed.... Its great to see you guys supporting such great product though!!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I have no experience with this new Esotar subwoofer, but I honestly can't see from it's construction or literature any reason why it would outperform even a modest Peerless sub, much less a w7 in terms of linearity and distortion.

I do have experience with the Esotar mid and tweeter, and while good performers objectively they measure about the same distortion performance as a pair of $100 Ushers. As much as I like Seas, even their top of the line Millenium, Crescendo, and Magnum tweeters don't perform significantly better than the $25 stuff. My entire point isn't to slam Dynaudio or Seas, but rather why not make a purchasing decision based on something more than a name and price tag?

I'll also agree with all those that say the room (most importantly), enclosure, and tuning will make more of a difference than most differences you'll find between decent subwoofers.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

I think Dynaudio could take a dump in a box, stamp their label on it, and it'd automatically be considered to be the reference standard.

The Esotar has nothing to offer over a W7, JBL Gti, or similar subwoofers except a response curve unique to the driver if you slap it in their recommended box. Regardless of the vehicle used you'll want to make an enclosure specific to the application to get a target response as that will make up the majority of the system's sound. Other than that the Dyn offers nothing spectacular in terms of linearity, distortion performance,, or transient response. It really doesn't offer a whole lot of flexibility in the response either considering the ridiculously high Q, unless you like a large peak around 50-60hz when trying to put it in reasonable enclosure sizes.


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

npdang said:


> I'll also agree with all those that say the room (most importantly), enclosure, and tuning will make more of a difference than most differences you'll find between decent subwoofers.


But where Dynaudio shines is if you have a guy that knows how to do all of the above then it will allow you to outshine other drivers.....IMO


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

CAMSHAFT said:


> But where Dynaudio shines is if you have a guy that knows how to do all of the above then it will allow you to outshine other drivers.....IMO


How so? Dyn doesn't offer anything that's the absolute best in terms of distortion, clarity, transient response, etc...The sub isn't anything special aside from the rather "unique" Qts and accompanying response curve accomplished by it's design, which isn't what I'd consider an ideal response curve, but it's sure to grab attention (high Q design, peak around 50-60hz, rapid falloff below that in most boxes used) and I'm sure people will perceive it as "tight" due to that. 

Their midwoofers continue to rely on the inset magnet, external coil architecture with mediocre linearity and a compromised spider design. Essentially, they're built exactly like a shallow subwoofer is. And, while good examples of them exist, there are a lot of reasons that manufacturers haven't abandoned other architectures when building their flagship products.


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

Dangerranger said:


> How so? Dyn doesn't offer anything that's the absolute best in terms of distortion, clarity, transient response,etc....


I love how people can look at a plot, some T/S, and go "yep I know excatly how that driver sounds" NOT!!! Don't get me wrong I look there for initial performance queues, but ultimately it's all in the listening. Real world performance = real world results....


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## MrDave (May 19, 2008)

I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has any idea what they are talking about anymore.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

CAMSHAFT said:


> I love how people can look at a plot, some T/S, and go "yep I know excatly how that driver sounds" NOT!!! Don't get me wrong I look there for initial performance queues, but ultimately it's all in the listening. Real world performance = real world results....


Unless Dynaudio has found a way to bend physics, it really is about that simple when it comes to subwoofers. Mids and tweets are a different 
ballgame.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

MrDave said:


> I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has any idea what they are talking about anymore.


LOL a $1500 woofer shipped to my house= My wife with what used to my nuts dangling from her lifted hand.

So My dick is bigger than yours.......Dont we have a Klippel....So lets get it to a few gurus on here to get some unbias opinions......trust me if i spent $1500 on a woofer I would be convinced it is the best thing since little Richard also.....becuase if I did not I would fell like an ass.

Build wise what makes this woofer so special that others are not using in todays market? 


JML.....happen to have you Dyna Demo in the state of Arkansas? If it happens shot me a PM.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

MrDave said:


> I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has any idea what they are talking about anymore.


X2. I really don't understand why people get so excited and feel the need to bash something they have never listened to or compared to something else just because it "lists" for $1,500. I'm not saying the Dyn woofer is or is not worth a lot. I've never heard it or played with it. So I'm not qualified to comment. And neither are most of you.
And this has gotten away from the original question asked. Why can't this be kept on track?


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

CAMSHAFT said:


> I love how people can look at a plot, some T/S, and go "yep I know excatly how that driver sounds" NOT!!! Don't get me wrong I look there for initial performance queues, but ultimately it's all in the listening.


I have plenty of experience with Dyn. They offer NOTHING that you can't get from another manufacturer cheaper, better performing, and better overall build quality. I've dealt with Dyns, designed and tweaked home audio systems using numerous Dyn drivers, had the System 360 in an older vehicle as well as kept up with their current car audio lineup. I stand by my statement. The only benefit they enjoy is that most car audio equipment is so subpar that it's easy to shine with a decent but not spectacular product.



CAMSHAFT said:


> Real world performance = real world results....


Real world testing leads to real world understanding of objective data and the capability to interpret it. Measure, listen, measure, listen, after it's been done long enough you know exactly what to expect and there isn't a driver in the world that will give you any surprises.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

CAMSHAFT said:


> I love how people can look at a plot, some T/S, and go "yep I know excatly how that driver sounds" NOT!!! Don't get me wrong I look there for initial performance queues, but ultimately it's all in the listening. Real world performance = real world results....


You're making the common mistake of taking an all or nothing approach with respect to measured data... assuming that because measurements can't tell you everything about how a driver will sound, that it can't tell you anything. Sure it won't give you the entire picture, but if you know what you're doing it can certainly give you a very good picture of how things will sound. Even at the most basic level, you know that a driver that measures a higher sensitivity will get louder with less power at any given frequency.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

bobduch said:


> X2. I really don't understand why people get so excited and feel the need to bash something they have never listened to or compared to something else just because it "lists" for $1,500. I'm not saying the Dyn woofer is or is not worth a lot. I've never heard it or played with it. So I'm not qualified to comment. And neither are most of you.
> And this has gotten away from the original question asked. Why can't this be kept on track?


I don't think anyone's making any assumptions either way about this driver, rather people are simply asking what I would consider to be a highly relevant question.... what is it about the build/design/performance of the driver that justifies the price?

And I don't really buy that "real world" subjective evaluation justifies everything line. That's the same kind of line that's used to sell audio rocks and green pens.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Might be mistaken but I believe that some drivers with lower sensitivity CAN get louder in some frequencies (lower octaves) than the higher sensitivity one. Read that on the Stereo Integrity forum... Well, not comparing a 101dB driver vs a 82dB one of course - but within a nice margin let's say 89dB vs 86dB...

Just my opinion, 
Kelvin


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> Might be mistaken but I believe that some drivers with lower sensitivity CAN get louder in some frequencies (lower octaves) than the higher sensitivity one. Read that on the Stereo Integrity forum... Well, not comparing a 101dB driver vs a 82dB one of course - but within a nice margin let's say 89dB vs 86dB...
> 
> Just my opinion,
> Kelvin


You might be confusing sensitivity with efficiency.


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## Gangsta (May 25, 2009)

Guyz i need your help regarding the Esotar 1200, I like the sound signature of IDQ's. I generally listen to Hip-Hop's.

Regards


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

You could even consider Shiva-X, very close on specs with the Dyn, goes lower, just that it needs slight bigger enclosure compared to Dyns, Plus the Shiva-x is slightly more efficient and rest of the money could be spend to get a high SQ amplifier to make them sound even better. Just my take.


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## audiodepot101 (Jul 14, 2009)

I have had the dyno's and the Morel Ultimo's, they both play very well but can not offer all the bass notes that I was looking for. They both play awesome with certain music. they are hard to beat!, But I went with the DD 9512g only because it is a happy medium as to say. It will play the soft notes, as juzz and hit the hard rap notes as well and do it while keeping great SQ. Just my thoughts on those subs in question.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Gangsta said:


> Guyz i need your help regarding the Esotar 1200, I like the sound signature of IDQ's. I generally listen to Hip-Hop's.
> 
> Regards


If you're listening to Hip-Hop then the Esotar 1200 is not the right woofer for you... unless you go with 4 - 6 of them  

If you like the sound of the IDQs then try to go with some IDmax or JBL Gti MkII 

Kelvin


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## Gangsta (May 25, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> If you're listening to Hip-Hop then the Esotar 1200 is not the right woofer for you... unless you go with 4 - 6 of them
> 
> If you like the sound of the IDQs then try to go with some IDmax or JBL Gti MkII
> 
> Kelvin


Its not that i only like Hip-Hop, currently i am using Rainbow Profi, i am quite happy with it the only thing which it lacks it the low end bass notes which IDQ does very well. I have also tried Idmax in a sealed enclosure but then it only goes low low low and its bit slow too. So i just want to know that can Esotar 1200 will solve my problem. I don't like loud bass i just want it to be accurate.

Regards


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

Putting 4 Esotars in a car would be absolutely insane; my kind of insanity though.  I have 2 of them in a Honda civic sedan.
With the volume turned up certain musical passages will buckle the windshield and cause the wipers to bounce. They take a lot more power than the 400 watt RMS rating.

No matter what music you listen to, if you want to hear an accurate reproduction as the artist intended, or as the studio screwed it up, you probably can't beat the Esotar1200.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Gangsta said:


> Its not that i only like Hip-Hop, currently i am using Rainbow Profi, i am quite happy with it the only thing which it lacks it the low end bass notes which IDQ does very well. I have also tried Idmax in a sealed enclosure but then it only goes low low low and its bit slow too. So i just want to know that can Esotar 1200 will solve my problem. I don't like loud bass i just want it to be accurate.
> 
> Regards


Well if a subwoofer goes too low (which sometimes makes it sloppy), you just need to decrease the volume of the enclosure. If you had the 12" IDmax in 1.6cuft, then you can decrease the volume to suit your style: 1.2 or 1.3cuft. 

Kelvin


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## JDMRB1ODY (Oct 11, 2008)

Nice to hear the Esotar 2 will sound better than a Ultimo and also can be used in a smallish 1.25 box. From what i've been told the Ultimo needs 2.0 for best results and I just don't have the space. Bashing of woofer ect and other on line vendors about selling gear they shouldn't really doesn't make sense anymore. First off are any major makers offering their stuff online? Only a few. Last time I checked car audio shops are disappearing from the landscape like crazy. I've tried many times to contact the "authorized" dealers to try to purchase from them only to be blown off totally or told they won't sell except from their stores. So what's a consumer do, drive 3 states to buy their gear or call someone like woofer ect? Back to the ESOTAR2, another nice thing about sounds like you don't have to send 1K watts to it either. How's 750 watts ?? enough power?


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

I know this thread is over a decade old but these subs and the ones comparable to them are still produced. I would like to know if anyone has anything new to contribute. I'm in the market for subwoofers right now(and a front stage and a DSP and some amps and also a new car) and had my eye on a couple W7's, but these dynaudio's are really calling my name. I am going for great SQ but love to jam out at higher volume. I love all types of music but mostly listen to rap and hip hop and rock. I would really like to get this thread going again so any input would be much obliged!


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Dynaudio isn't known for making the best subs on the market.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

K-pop sucks said:


> Dynaudio isn't known for making the best subs on the market.


says who, the ESO 1200 is one of if not the best sounding and accurate 12" subs on the market, will they go boom like a JL or some others on the market, maybe not, but they will play very loud and very smooth and accurate if done right


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

I keep telling you guys...k-pop sucks is a troll who knows absolutely nothing except how to stir the pot. Don't waste your time guys....


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

I'll bite. What is the best sub on the market then?


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

So what would you recommend for me then? I want a sub/s that will accurately reproduce fast kick drums that I will feel in my chest. Also I want a subs that will move some air and go BOOM when I want to jam out. Would 2 or 3 esotar2 1200's get me there?


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

LexusLover said:


> So what would you recommend for me then? I want a sub/s that will accurately reproduce fast kick drums that I will feel in my chest. Also I want a subs that will move some air and go BOOM when I want to jam out. Would 2 or 3 esotar2 1200's get me there?


I'd also look at Adire Audio Brahma subs and CSS Audio SDX's. I have CSS SDX 12's, they get really loud and sound spectacular. Both of my suggestions are XBL^2 designs.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Stereo Integrity also uses XBL^2 designs and their newer RM series is getting good reviews. Audio Frog is another sub that has a reputation for good sound quality and capable output. While the Dyn 1200 is a good sub, how I’ve seen it used most recently is as a high-quality IB sub, probably it and the AE SBP series are 2 of the best IB subs. Based on what I’ve read, it definitely would cover the sound quality though I’m not sure how well it would fit as a high-output sub seeing as how it is recommended to be used with 400w. The SI RM is rated for 1200w while being near the sensitivity of the Dyn 1200 (saw the graph but not an actual sensitivity number). But really, with any of these subs, you’d have one hell of a sub system.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Mooble said:


> Oh, c'mon. I'm going to call ******** here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I owned all 3 (currently using the Esotar) they all sound like SQL subs except the Dyn... the Dyn requires the least power so you could run it on a normal 4 channel amp that bridges to 350rms - un like the Morel which you need a strong mono or 2 channel that gives you 600+ the Morel imho sloppy the very bottom of the bass is “wobbly” or uncontrolled - didn’t like it that much. The ML3000 is nice up to a certain volume after that to me it sounded like a SPL sub both the ML3000 and Ultimo 12 lost there composure at high volumes playing low bass that needed control 

The Esotar on the other hand hits like a 10” but goes low like a 12” it doesn’t lose its composure it is extremely accurate and doesn’t need lots of power... 

The other sub I liked a lot was the Focal 21wx very surprising for a little 8” but you would need 2 and about 350rms on tap for both 

I heard the AF GB12 in a sealed box and I liked the Esotar and Focal more...




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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

Most of this is speculative and based on different power and enclosures i'm sure. The Esotar is anything but efficient...and yes i owned one. Yes it's a beautiful sounding sub that can get loud but there are better subs for the msrp of an Esotar. The Audiofrog in the right enclosure, or even IB is a monster, and there are other offerings that do as well for much less the E1200 cost.




Elektra said:


> I owned all 3 (currently using the Esotar) they all sound like SQL subs except the Dyn... the Dyn requires the least power so you could run it on a normal 4 channel amp that bridges to 350rms - un like the Morel which you need a strong mono or 2 channel that gives you 600+ the Morel imho sloppy the very bottom of the bass is “wobbly” or uncontrolled - didn’t like it that much. The ML3000 is nice up to a certain volume after that to me it sounded like a SPL sub both the ML3000 and Ultimo 12 lost there composure at high volumes playing low bass that needed control
> 
> The Esotar on the other hand hits like a 10” but goes low like a 12” it doesn’t lose its composure it is extremely accurate and doesn’t need lots of power...
> 
> ...


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

K-pop sucks said:


> Dynaudio isn't known for making the best subs on the market.




Damn you really do have your head up your ass mister "time alignment doesn't matter" and "dynaudio blah blah blah" have you even ever heard this sub? 


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

LexusLover said:


> So what would you recommend for me then? I want a sub/s that will accurately reproduce fast kick drums that I will feel in my chest. Also I want a subs that will move some air and go BOOM when I want to jam out. Would 2 or 3 esotar2 1200's get me there?




A buddy has one eso 1200 in a 2cuft sealed box it sounds absolutely amazing. Compared to a 13w7 sealed sq wise the dyn blows it away it detail and accuracy. BUT he and I both agree he needs a second eso for more output on some songs. But he doesn't want a 4cuft box. He is debating going to a gb12 to go to smaller box. 


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

foreman said:


> I keep telling you guys...k-pop sucks is a troll who knows absolutely nothing except how to stir the pot. Don't waste your time guys....




I completely agree so annoying


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

foreman said:


> Most of this is speculative and based on different power and enclosures i'm sure. The Esotar is anything but efficient...and yes i owned one. Yes it's a beautiful sounding sub that can get loud but there are better subs for the msrp of an Esotar. The Audiofrog in the right enclosure, or even IB is a monster, and there are other offerings that do as well for much less the E1200 cost.




Mine is running off about 250rms and it gets loud... or at least for me. I am using the Brax MX4 on my front stage and the Esotar is more than keeping up with the front stage in fact I had the Utopia 21wx in the car before the Dyn and I had to turn the power down on the Esotar as the gains were set for the Focal and it was too loud on the Dyn..

I wonder how 2 21wx subs would sound compared to one Dyn - but I don’t have a amp that can bridge to 2ohms currently - as the 4 channel I am using right not is doing midbass and bridged on the sub - so it does 350rms bridged at 4ohms but won’t do 2ohms 

I am waiting for my HV Venti to arrive back from Italy after a fault was sorted - but I am contemplating using my NOXDSP on the mids and tweeters and moving the MX4 to the midbass and sub...

Just dunno if the NOX will work as well on the mids and tweeters as the MX4 does...

Thinking of maybe getting another MX4 and run 2 MX4’s keep the HV for a passive setup in another car or sell it ... haven’t figured it out yet


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Elektra said:


> Mine is running off about 250rms and it gets loud... or at least for me. I am using the Brax MX4 on my front stage and the Esotar is more than keeping up with the front stage in fact I had the Utopia 21wx in the car before the Dyn and I had to turn the power down on the Esotar as the gains were set for the Focal and it was too loud on the Dyn..
> 
> I wonder how 2 21wx subs would sound compared to one Dyn - but I don’t have a amp that can bridge to 2ohms currently - as the 4 channel I am using right not is doing midbass and bridged on the sub - so it does 350rms bridged at 4ohms but won’t do 2ohms
> 
> ...




If you have a mic and REW maybe you could give ppl some SPL levels of 250wrms. That's pretty underpower


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

tonynca said:


> If you have a mic and REW maybe you could give ppl some SPL levels of 250wrms. That's pretty underpower
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I’ll try to measure tomorrow if I have time - I tuned the bass by ear so the bass fills the car sufficiently enough.. the amps total power is 350rms but it’s under 50% on the amp and the DSP is not boosted either - if I recall it’s in the negative on the DSP PRO...

I’ll check as it was while since I tuned the car...


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

i had 500 watts of zapco LX power and mine played very loud and very accurate


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

Thank you. Excellent input


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

Agreed! K pop you can keep.your worthless opinions to yourself.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

I don't get the hate lol Dynaudio isn't known for making world class subs, they are known for there speakers.


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

Im not sure what im doing wrong to not get it to show the statement that I am replying to but Redline have you actually heard the audiofrog GB sub? Do you know that it has more output than the esotar2 and has similar SQ and composure?

Do you have any experience with the W7?


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

K-pop sucks said:


> I don't get the hate lol Dynaudio isn't known for making world class subs, they are known for there speakers.


again, says who? the 1200 is a fine sub, period, its as good as any 12" on the market


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

LexusLover said:


> Im not sure what im doing wrong to not get it to show the statement that I am replying to but Redline have you actually heard the audiofrog GB sub? Do you know that it has more output than the esotar2 and has similar SQ and composure?
> 
> Do you have any experience with the W7?




I have not heard the gb yet just going on what I have read which sucks but it's all I got right now. My buddy with eso has read and we are in agreement that the consensus is the gb has more output than the eso from reading. I heard a 13w7 in a g35 sealed and honestly thought the dude was joking when he told what he had. To me my w3 10s sounded wayyy more accurate and dynamic. Which is sad. I don't think anything jl offeres personally should be considered sq subs. The w6 are ok to me but compared to the eso in my buddies Audi that's like comparing a stock civic to an f1 car. You can't really even compare them 


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

The W7 does really well IB ANd if i had the disposable income i would love to try 2 Esotar 12's IB, but i have a blue collar pocket book lol.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

tonynca said:


> If you have a mic and REW maybe you could give ppl some SPL levels...


I'd like to see this kind of comparison anytime we're talking about high priced subwoofers.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

I always say the w7’s in a sealed or band pass box is a waste of woofer &money, these are some of the best sounding woofers in a ported box with insane output. Now to say that a 12w6 can’t be compared to a e1200 I call that ********, I auditioned a car with micro precision speakers and couldn’t wait to get out of that thing the way it sounded horrible but it certainly wasn’t the speakers fault, I auditioned another car with 2 e1200’s that same day and the bass was so horrible I started wondering if I have the wrong perception of what SQ is all about. So it just take a bad tune or box to make any speaker sound like crap, especially W6 &W7, these are very unforgiving in the wrong enclosure,unlike W3 that sounds good in any old prefab box. I used (2) 10w6v2’s last season and at no point my subs was the weak link in my setup, the only reason why I would take the e1200 over the w6 is because everything else in my car is dynaudio other than that, they are 2 very capable woofers.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

tonynca said:


> If you have a mic and REW maybe you could give ppl some SPL levels of 250wrms. That's pretty underpower
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Hi here is my measurements - first measurement is no EQ you will see the bump... the other one is tuned you will see it’s smoothness out...

Untuned - the sub was doing about 118db’s - now that was on 30 volume on my P99 which goes all the way up to to 65 if I am not mistaken...

My gains are just over a 1/3rd DSP (Helix Pro 2) is on +1 (I think) 

During the EQ process I dropped 30-50hz like 10dbs (not kidding) to get it to the reference curve 

So the power is a lot lower than I thought I used - I was concerned that the sub won’t be loud enough but in reality the bass is good as I listen on volume 36-40 - I might increase the power by a dB or 2 just to get the road bass on the highway as strong as it is when car is stationary...

















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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Since there are a lot of Dynaudio Esotar users - I presume many have measured and tuned there subs as well 

Did you guys experience a bump in your system like mine did? 

The bump was pretty big as well.... my sub is in a 40lt sealed enclosure in a BMW X3 2012 model...

I would be interested in your experience in this type of sub..

See pic below...










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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

What's the crossover setting on the Helix for the sub?


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

tonynca said:


> What's the crossover setting on the Helix for the sub?




80hz 24db slope....


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