# Tweeters sound shrill, bad imaging, how to improve?



## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

My set up is coming along now and i almost have it to where i think it sounds good but I'm still having a few issues that i cant figure out. 

my set up - 
HU - alpine cda d852
front speakers - 4 cadence CWM-6kit mids with 2 vifa soft dome tweeters
rear speakers - none
speaker amps - planet audio rx4.300 75wrmsx4
subs - 2 IDQ 12 v2's, sealed boxes 1.15ft
sub amp - planet audio rxd1000 1000rms at 1 ohm
EQ - none yet

basically the problem is the highs sound a little shrill, i guess my preference is super soft highs and loud mids. i got rid of the hard dome tweets with the kit and switched to 2 Vifa BC25SC06-04 soft domes with a 4 ohm resistors to tone them down even more. still they sound a little bit shrill to me, and beside that the imaging is very poor. the speakers sound super directional to me. i know an equilizer could improve the highs but i still think the way my leg sits so close to the tweeter is what is causing it to sound shrill.

I'm starting to wonder if its even possible to make car audio sound good to me because of where the speakers have to be mounted. the problem must be the install, is there any thing i can do to improve the imaging without relocating the speakers?

here is a picture of my door pods, the top tweeters are unhooked.










keep in mind that I have a cheap set of fisher 15" cabinet speakers (ported 15s cross at 150hz, 6" mids, 2.75" cone tweeters) in my house and iv grown very accustomed to home audio sound. so maybe that's why I'm so critical. I listen to mostly rock, all my country and rap and other types of less demanding music sounds pretty good on the system so Its not too far off.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

That is a pretty tough location. The driver side tweeter is very close to you off axis, while the passenger side is near on axis. 

I would suggest disconnecting 1 pair of tweeters and listen, then try the other pair. Having 2 sets of tweeters is just asking for phasing/imaging problems. Not to mention you have double the output.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Active or passive?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Why do you need 4 mid bass drivers? You're adding to your existing phase issues. Assuming that you're not using processing, here's whats happening. 

The near side speakers are closest to you and you will hear them first. The brain locates sound by what it hears first. With your install the location would be fixed at the near pod.

The near tweeter is almost 90 deg off axis and the far one is on axis. Your upper mids and highs, frequencies that the tweets play, are much stronger from the far tweet. This smears the highs all the way to your side. Your brain is now locating the source at the near pod and the the far tweet is adding intensity to this location. 

A large chunk of the frequencies your mid bass drivers play are sensitive to arrival times (phase). With 4 different drivers playing the same frequency and all at different distances from you, you'll get phase issues and cancellations as well. 

It's been asked already, are you running active or passive? If passive then check the xover to see if it has a tweeter attenuation switch, if so turn it down from there. 

What sort of processing does your hu give you?


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

Its passive and the top tweeters are just dummies. I'm just running the two lower tweets with resistors and the crossover on -3 because 4 tweeters sounded way to bright with that install, plus the top tweeters sound like crap any where you put them. I used the bottom holes because the center distance from tweeter to mid is equal, and its farther away from me. I wanted 4 speakers because i have enough power for it and i wanted to get loud. a 3 way 8" set would have probably been a better option. I am at least happy with how loud it gets though. 

would slightly attenuating the top mids help out?

the head unit doesn't have any special processing.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

In that case I would just go with kicks. Better path lengths for the mids and axis response for the tweets. Normally I would never put a tweet in kicks but without processing that may just be your best bet.


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## rdv (May 14, 2007)

i may be mistaken but from what i've read having a resistor after the crossover affects how the xover sees the tweeter's impedance and this changes the xover point. 

i think moving the tweeters will really help but if you want to keep the speakers where they are there then maybe play with tweeter aiming? 

i think attenuating the highs off the woofers is a solution. the shrillness may actually be coming from the woofers as well. do you have an equalizer? or a means to go active? if not maybe you could fab your own passives. that would mean experimenting with different values though.


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

i could go active pretty easily. from what i understand a series resistor on the tweeter should not affect the crossover as it does not change the impedance? this is just what i have read on other forums, theoretically the crossover point would double if i double the resistance and i did not notice a difference. the resistor did not seem to do anything other then attenuate. 

I have ran the set up with no tweeter at all to check and there is no problems with weird sound until you put tweeters into the equation. 

If i change the channels around on my amp i have phases adjustment from 0-180 on the lower and upper speakers separately, would this be of any great help? the phase is just at 0 right now and its hooked up so the phase is adjustable left or right not up and down.


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## rdv (May 14, 2007)

rob b. said:


> i could go active pretty easily. from what i understand a series resistor on the tweeter should not affect the crossover as it does not change the impedance? this is just what i have read on other forums, theoretically the crossover point would double if i double the resistance and i did not notice a difference. the resistor did not seem to do anything other then attenuate.
> 
> I have ran the set up with no tweeter at all to check and there is no problems with weird sound until you put tweeters into the equation.
> 
> If i change the channels around on my amp i have phases adjustment from 0-180 on the lower and upper speakers separately, would this be of any great help? the phase is just at 0 right now and its hooked up so the phase is adjustable left or right not up and down.


i guess i read the opposite and thats why i always place the resistor before the crossover (at least when im using simple caps). 

would you know the cut off on the passive? maybe try listening to them on another passive filter with a higher cutoff? how are the woofers wired to the passive? maybe try running just one woofer on each side?

i dont know how your amps phase adjustment works. i guess the best thing is to try it and listen. that might help with imaging you can always go back to the original settings

going active will allow you to really fine tune your xover and speaker levels. with this you could use a separate smaller amp with less power for the tweeters. but if you want to try and keep your existing setup you may have to move the tweeter or use another tweeter altogether. i do remember using the xt19 alpine version mounted in the stock door locations in a 99 audi and found them harsh no matter what cutoff i used. in fairness other tweeters were harsh there as well. but they did sound really good on the dash of an 07 crv and i was using them with a custom 12db passive filter at around 3k powered with 30 watts.


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

I changed the wiring and was able to offset the phase on the top speakers and gain up the lowers a bit, it definitely did help allot but its still not good enough. I need to go somewhere were i can run the system at near full volume and play with the phase, i think there is room for improvement in that setting.

I could go active relatively easily down the road but for now i just want to dial in what i have as best i can.


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

rob b. said:


> I changed the wiring and was able to offset the phase on the top speakers and gain up the lowers a bit, it definitely did help allot but its still not good enough. *I need to go somewhere were i can run the system at near full volume* and play with the phase, i think there is room for improvement in that setting.
> 
> I could go active relatively easily down the road but for now i just want to dial in what i have as best i can.


Why?

Chuck


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## mattchan2000 (Nov 7, 2008)

cajunner said:


> that harshness you're hearing is likely due to a glass reflection that is hard to treat.
> 
> your tweeter choice should be okay, it's location is okay, unless your leg blocks the view of it while seated.
> 
> ...


exactly....I'm also used to home audio sound and never get what the sound I want when going passive....until now ACTIVE!!!!!! You can have lots of tuning and spk/tweeter matching.


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

stereo_luver said:


> Why?
> 
> Chuck


because the harshness is most apparent at high volume, it would be easier to hear the difference if i can play with the phase with the volume up.


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

cajunner said:


> that harshness you're hearing is likely due to a glass reflection that is hard to treat.
> 
> your tweeter choice should be okay, it's location is okay, unless your leg blocks the view of it while seated.
> 
> ...


So if my resistor is affecting the crossover point, then what is the proper way to attenuate a tweeter on a passive set up?

as far as the lower speakers, your saying i should run those without the crossover? because i can low pass the lowers on my amp and still run the uppers full range.

Also, i would love to go active, but for now I'm looking to improve what i have because i just dont have the money right now.


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

So, what exactly is the proper way to attenuate a tweeter after the crossover?


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

rob b. said:


> EQ - none yet


No EQ set on your HU or no EQ available at all...


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

I need to get one, I'm in a bad spot for money right now though... the HU equalizer is worthless, just bass and treble, cant adjust the center.


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## rob b. (Apr 12, 2011)

I finally went out and adjusted the phase at full volume. Made a huge difference, makes me really glad i got an amp that has full range phase adjustment as most in that price range don't, also turned the top gain down a good amount relative to the bottom speakers. overall i think im pretty happy with it now, just an equalizer will finish it up untill i want to go full active and make it realy sound good.


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