# for big 3, is alt to bat fuse really necessary?



## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

...that is, the alternator + to battery +? 

I mean, besides the obvious fusing in the vehicle, the stock wiring path from alt + to bat +(in a 2007 scion tC) doesn't have a fuse does it? And the voltage regulator will still do its thing with or without big 3, correct? just want to make sure the alt wont overcharge the bat and explode shrapnel into my eyeballs or something when I do this.

btw, in case yall ever make it on jeopardy, my factory manual shows: 

with engine at 2,000 rpm 

*Standard amperage:
10 A or less
Standard voltage:
13.2 to 14.8 V*

And with engine at 2,000 rpm, high
beam headlights ON, and heater blower
switched to the "HI" position.

*Standard amperage:
30 A or more*


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> ...that is, the alternator + to battery +?
> 
> I mean, besides the obvious fusing in the vehicle, the stock wiring path from alt + to bat +(in a 2007 scion tC) doesn't have a fuse does it? And the voltage regulator will still do its thing with or without big 3, correct? just want to make sure the alt wont overcharge the bat and explode shrapnel into my eyeballs or something when I do this.
> 
> ...


It would be called the big two if it wasnt


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## nervewrecker (Oct 5, 2009)

if im not mistaken the alt regulates the current flow already so a fuse is un-necessary unless the wire is run in such a way that it is in danger of the insulation melting by comming into contact / being exposed to bare metal that may become heated in the engine bay. as long as the wire is secured I see no reason for a fuse. 
besides, fuses restrict current flow a bit.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

nervewrecker said:


> if im not mistaken the alt regulates the current flow already so a fuse is un-necessary unless the wire is run in such a way that it is in danger of the insulation melting by comming into contact / being exposed to bare metal that may become heated in the engine bay. as long as the wire is secured I see no reason for a fuse.
> besides, fuses restrict current flow a bit.



and what happens to your battery if the wire somehow grounds out?


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## nervewrecker (Oct 5, 2009)

I know the fuse is a safety device & it will be a wise idea to put one. Once secured properly I see no way in which the wire can get loose, for it to come loose you may have bigger worries than the battery grounding off. 
once secured properly the insulation should not melt either.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Do you think anyone wires in their car with the intention of it failing?

Most factory wiring has fusible links in it, not fuses. They melt under high current, can sometimes be hard to see in the wires.

The issue is if the factory had half a brain they wired the alternator according to its output, and so it should not need anymore wire. Its a short length as well it should not need to be that big. Some have said they saw an improvement replacing it, but it does not make a lot of sense....but possible I suppose. If you are into SPL then you might do it just to do it.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

run 2 small wires instead of just one big one [ existing , plus additional ].


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

joemk69 said:


> It would be called the big two if it wasnt


i meant the _fuse_, not the wire...


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

nineball said:


> and what happens to your battery if the wire somehow grounds out?


care to throw out some scenarios on how this would happen, aside from it melting?


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

nervewrecker said:


> I know the fuse is a safety device & it will be a wise idea to put one.


what size fuse would you suggest?


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

Oliver said:


> run 2 small wires instead of just one big one [ existing , plus additional ].


so like, the stock plus a 4 awg or something?


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Does the factory fuse it's charge lead? No. I don't think I've ever seen a charge lead fused.














































...and yes, I'm going to techflex and heat shrink it. I'll loom the alternator end under the cover and the piece will come out of the cover with the red techflex...










...pop rivets are my friend. I was trying to figure out a more creative way to place the fuse holder aside from the standard body panel or plastic panel placement that you see ALL THE TIME.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

sqcomp said:


> Does the factory fuse it's charge lead? No. I don't think I've ever seen a charge lead fused.
> 
> ...and yes, I'm going to techflex and heat shrink it. I'll loom the alternator end under the cover and the piece will come out of the cover with the red techflex...
> 
> ...pop rivets are my friend. I was trying to figure out a more creative way to place the fuse holder aside from the standard body panel or plastic panel placement that you see ALL THE TIME.


is that a tC? wait...it looks like an xB....hmmm. thanks for the pics. good work.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

RULE #1 - ALL POWER WIRES MUST BE FUSED WITH IN 12 INCHES OF THE BATTERY. 

Yes if it grounds out the alt will probably fail and no longer produce electricity. How ever at that point the batter will weld that cable to the point that it grounds out. I would be amazed if the factory power wire did not have a fusable link in it that you cannot see.

So basically there are two choices. Install a fuse, or install a fire extinguisher....


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

ttocs388 said:


> So basically there are two choices. Install a fuse, or install a fire extinguisher....


eh...ok, pray tell what size fuse? and how? 

I wonder why so many Big 3 pro installation tutorials don't mention this.

thinking i'll just work on a Big 2 until I am more acquainted with my electrical system.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

sqcomp said:


> Does the factory fuse it's charge lead? No. I don't think I've ever seen a charge lead fused.


yes the factory fuses power leads. you may not be able to see them, and they may not be the same type of fuse we use, but they do.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

@ nineball & ttoc :

Okay...show me an adequate example and I'll fuse mine.


@ RTE :

It's a Yaris actually.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

I ain't gonna show you anything except a torched car if things go wrong. I am not sure how I should show you an example.

The factory doesn't use a fuse like you are looking for, they use fusable links. These are spots in the wire where it is basically soldered and the weak point of the chain if it does short out, it pops at that point. 

Now are you really going to risk a fire under the hood to debate wether to install $10 worth of a fuse holder and a fuse? That is your choice but like I said above, if you do not do the 10 buck fuse then do the $20 fire ext. It will not save you $20 worth of damage but what would I know after 15 yrs installing?


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink. sqcomp knows everything already, don't waste any more time ttocs.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

sqcomp said:


> @ nineball & ttoc :
> 
> Okay...show me an adequate example and I'll fuse mine.
> 
> ...


check out page 236 of your owners manual (give or take a few pages depending on model year). then come back and tell us the factory doesn't use fusible links.


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## nervewrecker (Oct 5, 2009)

I am not disagreeing that the fuse is a good idea, you stand to loose much more if the wire grounds off but the scenario in which I was referring to is if you need every last bit of current in a system such as an spl system & the vehicle is not one that is used daily. When I said once secured properly, if that wire comes loose you may have more worries than the wire grounding off I meant massive damage to the engine bay like in the case of a car accident. 
ReticulatingPigeonElf, a scenario in which the wires could ground off without the insulation melting may be like if you go to your auto electrician for a small problem you having, some novice is working on your car & for some reason he has to disconnect the wire from your alt, he may unknowingly leave it hanging there with the risk of it grounding off. 
but may I throw this question unto the table while we discussing it:
The Fuse is a saftey device comprising of a thin piece of metal that supposed to melt & break the circuit if too much current flows through it & yadda yadda yadda. 
The fuse does not melt right away, in the case of a fused cable grounding off wouldnt significant damage already be done before the fuse melts? The reason I am asking is because a curious friend of mine grounded off a fused cable to see how long before the fuse melts, the fuse didnt melt right away.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

nervewrecker said:


> I am not disagreeing that the fuse is a good idea, you stand to loose much more if the wire grounds off but the scenario in which I was referring to is if you need every last bit of current in a system such as an spl system & the vehicle is not one that is used daily.


your scenario does not apply here. who ever said anything about being an spl competing car? i highly doubt that anyone asking this question is doing so for competition reasons nor will they notice any drop in current as a result of adding a fuse between the battery and the alternator. the factory already has a fused wired connection between them, so you are merely adding another path for the electricity to flow.




nervewrecker said:


> The fuse does not melt right away, in the case of a fused cable grounding off wouldnt significant damage already be done before the fuse melts? The reason I am asking is because a curious friend of mine grounded off a fused cable to see how long before the fuse melts, the fuse didnt melt right away.


there are too many factors to answer your question. the fuse, holder and a host of other variables are at play.


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## nervewrecker (Oct 5, 2009)

but does it melt right away?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

A fuse blows dependent on amount of current vs is rating. It will blow really fast at twice its rating, but not so fast at its rating. A fuse will pass over its rating for small time frames. Someone tested this and I saw a graph on the net someplace showing how it blows faster as current goes higher. But, note the rating is a minimum rating of current they handle and at times will pass more.

I wold also recommend adding a second wire fused, and leave the factory on there. Most cars have an 8ga or something, seems like doubling that is overkill but makes sense. On the other hand if you just want a cool looking huge wire, well put it on there then.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

ttoc...

Well fair enough. 15 years does make the installer a jaded prick, that's for sure. 

No, I don't take advice from self described installers off DIYMA. Even if you were the most magical fairy of an installer, I don't know your credentials. For all I know is that you're some yahoo armchair commando...

Now, like I said, if I was shown (as in the horse led to water) and like nineball so brusquely pointed out I'll look in my owner's manual. It's nothing to install a breaker out of sight really.

Take your internet attitude and pound it out your schnizz.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm a proponent of fusing, but the run from the alt positive to the battery positive is generally not fused. This is simply the collective experience of the internet, and all I can do is relay it to you.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

bd5034 said:


> I'm a proponent of fusing, but the run from the alt positive to the battery positive is generally not fused. This is simply the collective experience of the internet, and all I can do is relay it to you.


why would you fuse every line going to the battery except one? that makes no sense. is there some magical force field that prevents anything from ever happening to that wire? 

every positive wire on a car should be fused at some point, and all modern cars are. now my old 83 911 does not have every line fused and that has been known to cause many problems. for example, the light in my ashtray was not fused and after 25+ years the jacket was brittle and flaking away. while out for a drive one day my cabin suddenly filled with so much smoke i couldn't see out the windows and thought the entire under-dash was on fire. the wire had grounded out and was burning the remaining jacket off. if it had been fused this would have never happened. as part of the restoration everything that wasn't fused from the factory is now as a safety precaution.

here is what was left










granted this is not the norm for examples but you get the point. fuses are your friend and should be used liberally. it's much easier and cheaper to install a fuse than to rebuild a car from fire. if you value your car, or even just the equipment inside it, fuse any positive wire going to the battery.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

fair enough.

That's what I'm saying. I'm trying to figure out whether the alternator is more of a component like an amplifier is or classified as something different in reference to fusing.

I'm sitting here staring at the 2011 IASCA rules and it's pretty ambiguous regarding the alternator itself.

I think I'll find some space on the battery tray to make a nice fuse location then.

^nineball, that was a nicer way to approach the subject, thank you.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm thinking maybe I should shoot for a 50-60 amp fuse? Just adding hi beams, heat blower, and total amp current load...hmmm

whoa wait, it would be more like 200amp...forgot to add second amp...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

nervewrecker said:


> but does it melt right away?


Search

*Let Me Google That ......*




YouTube - Car Maintenance and Repair Tips : How Do Fuses Work in a Vehicle


Car Maintenance and Repair Tips : How Do Fuses Work in a Vehicle


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Just to bring up another little ditty...

"We fuse the charging system from front to rear incase we are in an accident and the charge lead from front to rear is compromised. If your charge wire extends from front to rear then I'd say fuse it. We fuse from common battery locations to common amplifier locations to protect the vehicle rather than the audio equipment. The charge lead from the alt to the main or starting battery (in the typical under hood location) would not come into play unless you were in a serious auto accident IMO. At which point the audio system would become the last of your concerns.

Now if you own a car with the main/starting battery in the trunk or under the rear seat such as some General Motors and several German car models then I would surely fuse between the alt and battery."

Thoughts?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Maybe you should put a fuse between the battery and the starter. What if that wire fails?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Most cars have a fusible link between the starter and battery.


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## Ianarian (Dec 20, 2010)

If the battery and alt are on separate sides of the engine compartment, maybe it'd be a good idea to fuse. In my truck, the run is like 12". I'd hafta add 12" to that to get to a location that a fuse can be mounted. For those who feel their application needs to be fused, then a 2 line fuse holder would be the way to go. Given the idea behind the big 3, both fuses in the holder would be the same. Being it is the circuit starts at alt+ and ends at alt-.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

thehatedguy said:


> Most cars have a fusible link between the starter and battery.


put a fuse with a piece of cheese in it in case of rats...if you don't they'll come and gnaw away the insulation of your engine wires...:laugh:


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

nineball said:


> why would you fuse every line going to the battery except one? that makes no sense. is there some magical force field that prevents anything from ever happening to that wire?
> 
> every positive wire on a car should be fused at some point, and all modern cars are. now my old 83 911 does not have every line fused and that has been known to cause many problems. for example, the light in my ashtray was not fused and after 25+ years the jacket was brittle and flaking away. while out for a drive one day my cabin suddenly filled with so much smoke i couldn't see out the windows and thought the entire under-dash was on fire. the wire had grounded out and was burning the remaining jacket off. if it had been fused this would have never happened. as part of the restoration everything that wasn't fused from the factory is now as a safety precaution.
> 
> ...



Aren't things like that handled by the fuse box under the dash or in the engine bay>? I know in my car that's how it's handled...


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

good luck with yer install as it sounds like you will need it. I tried to be nice on the first post, after 15 yrs of giving advice mine will be short and to the point. I am not going to massage you, tell you that it is ok when it is just breaking rule#1. Most big 3 instructions will not mention this because if you do not know rule #1 then you should probably be paying someone to install your gear, or you will be paying someone to repair it later. 

feel free to call me any more names that will make you feel better about yourself and make YOU look like the keyboard commando that has no clue, but asking if it is ok to break #1 shows what we already knew....


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

^Have fun with that.

I received conflicting advice from yours, Mr. 15 year installer, by people who are much more qualified. When one of the contributing authors to the IASCA rules and multiple championship IASCA competitor, and a USACi SQ champ tell me that I don't need to fuse that run... YOU ARE TRUMPED.

...That on top of the two shop owners that have been each installing longer than yourself who initially gave me the advice when I installed it myself in the shop. I'll let you know if my car burns to the ground. It won't though.

Go install a blow and go.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

well if you knew all those people, and had those answers, then why the heck would you put it in the stupid question area? I had no idea that you had so much pull in the 12v world.

I can 100% guarantee that my car will not burn for lack of a fuse, now go ask those guys if they give the same gurantee. Seriously for $10 of hardware and 15 mins of work you are putting on one hell of a stupid show to try and seem like you are right. $10 man TEN FREAKING DOLLARS, what are you really trying to save? Your car or $10?

Get off your horse and realize that IT IS JUST COMMON SENCE! There is really NO acceptable reason in my book that it should be left out so rather then call me names or say who you know, tell me what you plan on gaining leaving the fuse off and what you will spend the $10 on? There are PLENTY of shops that will half ass a job to save $10....


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

actually after thinking about it, if it is a show car or spl car that is not daily driven then I could justify it. The .1v that you loose from the fuse could be helpfull and probably not cause too much of a hazard. 

But on a DD car, you have to admit that you WILL sooner or later be in an accident. REmember that The alt wire will be ran along/over the engine and could be exposed to hot componants that could melt through the insulation if you have a wreck and the wire is moved. 

Have you ever seen a wire weld itself to the chassis, and put a nice black line on everthing that it crossed. I have on customers cars that knew more then me and nothing makes us installer laugh more then a burn mark that could have been, or better yet should have been prevented.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

sqcomp said:


> Go install a blow and go.


:laugh:

100% pure hilarity

On a lighter note, I think your friend ttocs is right - there is no harm that can come of using an extra fuse, so why not?
Just so there's no confusion: I think a fuse is of dubious value from alt+ to batt+, it certainly can't *hurt*.
Somebody once said to me "even if you don't believe in God, you should still pray from time to time, because the worst that can happen is nothing, and that's what you're expecting anyway"


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

that is my point. What is it going to hurt, and look at the penalty for failure? Best case scenario, you leave the fuse off and drive around for years with the $10 in yer pocket! Wow, woopie and you win bro! Worst case will be you standing on the side of the road after a wreck cursing the fact that I was right as your car burns to the ground. Actually that would not be the worst case as the worst case would be if you were either knocked out or trapped in the car while it burns. 

You wish you had the knowledge to do a blow and go....


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

ttocs388 said:


> You wish you had the knowledge to do a blow and go....


That is so sig worthy.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

ya but yet I am stil 90% sure that he will not get it, tell me I am still wrong and then call me some more names as if it hurts me or helps him. Like they said before, some horses can die of thurst while swimming......


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

ttocs388 said:


> some horses can die of thurst while swimming......


Actually, a horse swimming across a large enough body of water would likely die from drowning long before it died from dehydration. Although technically, if the body of water it was swimming across was composed of a hypertonic solution of salt water - and if the horse managed to keep itself afloat long enough for it to become dehydrated - the effect of osmosis on the horse's meat cells would....ahahaha, jk


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> Actually, a horse swimming across a large enough body of water would likely die from drowning long before it died from dehydration. Although technically, if the body of water it was swimming across was composed of a hypertonic solution of salt water - and if the horse managed to keep itself afloat long enough for it to become dehydrated - the effect of osmosis on the horse's meat cells would...*.ahahaha, j*k


Thank GOD you put the J/K at the end. I was about to say. I know this site can be self-serious but that would be a new level of pedantry lol.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

bd5034 said:


> Aren't things like that handled by the fuse box under the dash or in the engine bay>? I know in my car that's how it's handled...


yes, in modern cars, but that is not always the case in older vehicles. that light, the dash lights and a host of other items were not fused in 1983 for some reason (but they are now after the resto). like i said i was just using it as an example of what can happen when you don't fuse a positive line.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

General understanding of protection devices -



> Fuses That "Blow" Repeatedly
> 
> Fuses [and Circuit Breakers] are safety devices designed and installed in electrical circuits TO PROTECT the conductors [wires] from short circuits and overload conditions which can cause extreme overheating that can result in damage to the insulation and the conductors. And worse the possibility of a FIRE which could destroy the vehicle, house, or other structure in which the circuit is located.
> 
> ...


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

As I recall sir, you are the one who instigated my "jaded prick remark". Oh, and try me on the ignition interlock install...

I haven't been in an accident in over 10 years. Maybe I'm due. Guess what? The charge wire isn't going anywhere...and I've got plenty of strength to get out of a vehicle. Roll over drills are second nature anyway.

$10 is fine, there's not an issue. Again, your advice has been trumped. Pull? Yes perhaps. You going to be at CES so we can talk about it in more detail? First round is on me.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Wow. you are funny man, just super super funny but I can't tell if you are dumber then you are funny or the opposite. Do you want me to line up some of the best installers in the nation to trump you? I can but I know in the end that you are just that stuped horse that would die of thirst while swimming and that it would not change anything. do you know how stupid you sound saying you are too good of a driver to get in an accident, soo strong that if you do you will simply tear the car in half and walk away, and that when you have a wreck that everything will stay in its place?

yes, you are due to have a wreck, everyone is.... if it is not caused by your own dumb ass then it could very well be cause by the drunk dumb ass that happens to be next to you, but I know you are too smart to let that happen. The only peolpe that do not have car accidents are the people that never get on the road. While you sound stupid enough that this should be the case, unfortunatly we give oxygen theifs like yourself licenses every day...

Yes if you have a big enough wreck that wire will move, it is simple phisics but I bet you know more about that then anyone else as well. It doesn't take much of a front end impact to cause things to shift significantly in the engine. But obviously if you can negate the jaws of life and cut yourself out of the car with your swiss army knife then you must also have the mind powers that rival god and yoda himself to make sure the wires will stay perfectly still in a worst case scenario. These are not the wires you seek to ground out, just a simple jedi trick right?

now seriously I am out as you are not worth the time. Even with the facts infront of you, people doing the math for you, you are still to set on trying to prove me wrong so it is just blantantly obvious you have no clue. What are you trying to save? $10 or your car? I really cant understand your point that it doesn't need to be there other then the fact you are too smart or strong to let that happen. We are all at that point sometime in our life but then eventually we are old enough to buy smokes and learn better.

BLATANTLY..........




I think you probably could do a blow and go, but I am willing to bet yours would have nothing to do with electronics........


I apologize to ant and the rest of the forum as he knows me and knows I am not like this and do not normally flame people, but when it is deserved I will be there with the match for the fuel


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

ttocs388 said:


> well if you knew all those people, and had those answers, then why the heck would you put it in the stupid question area? I had no idea that you had so much pull in the 12v world.
> 
> I can 100% guarantee that my car will not burn for lack of a fuse, now go ask those guys if they give the same gurantee. Seriously for $10 of hardware and 15 mins of work you are putting on one hell of a stupid show to try and seem like you are right. $10 man TEN FREAKING DOLLARS, what are you really trying to save? Your car or $10?
> 
> Get off your horse and realize that IT IS JUST COMMON SENCE! There is really NO acceptable reason in my book that it should be left out so rather then call me names or say who you know, tell me what you plan on gaining leaving the fuse off and what you will spend the $10 on? There are PLENTY of shops that will half ass a job to save $10....


Please show me where I can buy a 1/0 fuse and fuse holder for $10. I sure as heck paid alot more than that for my main power line fuse and fuse block and most people that do the big 3 are using 1/0. Isn't it more like a $40 investment for a quality in line 1/0 fuse and fuse block??

I personally have never fused this cable. I am actually getting ready to run this cable in my new vehicle. Its only about a 2 foot run and I am not so sure it's worth an extra $40 investment.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

Quick question: If my car ends up in a lake with me in it, will my electrical windows short, or will they still roll down when I press the button?


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> Quick question: If my car ends up in a lake with me in it, will my electrical windows short, or will they still roll down when I press the button?


won't matter if you have one of these:

Vehicle Emergency Tool - Glass Breaker Belt Cutter


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

nineball said:


> won't matter if you have one of these:
> 
> Vehicle Emergency Tool - Glass Breaker Belt Cutter


you know that thing is going to end up in the glovebox, just out of reach.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

nineball said:


> won't matter if you have one of these:
> 
> Vehicle Emergency Tool - Glass Breaker Belt Cutter


Something like that was my Christmas present to everybody in my family a few years ago. We all have them mounted within easy reach - most in the door pockets.


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## Ianarian (Dec 20, 2010)

Got it, got it, got it.... Like my one word resolution to underpowering, ...
I wont fuse my wire for the love of above.... but if there were a electrical code to car audio, I'd bet for dam sure it would call for it. Shall!<----know what I mean? haha, good huh?

Beyond that, years of installation hold water when judging someone's creativity, experience or familiarity and so on... You can also take a class and learn this subject inside and out in your first year. Perhaps with that knowledge, some other attributes of a educated individual will also shine. Especially at a time when exposing yourself in regards to having superior knowledge.

Too vague? Another clue: Homophones- they can pass spell check, but not context!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

This is really a case where searching would have yielded a very comprehensive discussion. Worth reading.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> This is really a case where searching would have yielded a very comprehensive discussion. Worth reading.


this is the kinder, gentler spoon-fed diyma. no one searches for anything here anymore. all the past knowledge on all topics that have been discussed at length are just rotting away on a server...


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

nineball said:


> this is the kinder, gentler spoon-fed diyma. no one searches for anything here anymore. all the past knowledge on all topics that have been discussed at length are just rotting away on a server...


this is the "dumb question" area... It says right in the description "no matter how searchable"

All we had to do was post very comprehensive discussion right as the very first reply, and that would have handled it neatly. 

Unfortunately, I wasn't smart enough to think of doing that, so it's my fault as much as anyone else's.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

bd5034 said:


> this is the "dumb question" area... It says right in the description "no matter how searchable"


Yeah, I was new to the forum and a bit limited on time, so I thought this section was rather convenient. I am now making a greater effort to peruse the DIYMA archives.


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## estione (Jul 24, 2009)

ttocs388 said:


> yes, you are due to have a wreck, everyone is.... if it is not caused by your own dumb ass then it could very well be cause by the drunk dumb ass that happens to be next to you, but I know you are too smart to let that happen. The only peolpe that do not have car accidents are the people that never get on the road. While you sound stupid enough that this should be the case, unfortunatly we give oxygen theifs like yourself licenses every day...
> 
> What a complete load of CRAP


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

who knew there was so much animosity on the internet?


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