# which mid bass drivers with a set of Eric's horns



## captivahach

B&C 8PE21 8" Midrange Speaker 294-652
B&C 8PS21 8" Woofer 294-654
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?item_id=223198&locale=en_US&p_status=
These will be ran in the front doors of a f250 completely sealed and dampened. Will be powered by http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?item_id=107997&locale=en_US&p_status=


----------



## DanMan

Of the two B&C's, I'd go with the woofers. They play a bit lower and have a higher sensitivity. Haven't heard anything about Rockford.

Unless you really want to experiment, maybe you should search around and see what has worked for others.

For amplification keep in mind that the mids will need much more power than the horns.


----------



## captivahach

DanMan said:


> Of the two B&C's, I'd go with the woofers. They play a bit lower and have a higher sensitivity. Haven't heard anything about Rockford.
> 
> Unless you really want to experiment, maybe you should search around and see what has worked for others.
> 
> For amplification keep in mind that the mids will need much more power than the horns.


Thanks those were the ones I was leaning toward. Yea I will be running the t400.4 on the horn with very if any gain. I have 4 idv3 10 sealed with a t1500.1


----------



## DanMan

Maybe in the future you could bridge that amp for your mids and pick up a small 2-channel for the horns.

What are you using for processing?


----------



## captivahach

DanMan said:


> Maybe in the future you could bridge that amp for your mids and pick up a small 2-channel for the horns.
> 
> What are you using for processing?


The t 600.4 will be bridged on the mids only,and horns bridged on the t400.4 I have a Kenwood excelon DD DVD and the horns will be tuned with audio control eqt's haven't picked a x_over yet don't know if the amps x_over is enough. What are you talking bout as far a processor


----------



## Boostedrex

Look at some options from 18Sound and Faital Pro as well. Both made amazing quality drivers! US SPEAKER PARTS - Speakers, Speaker Cabinets, Guitar speakers, Bass speakers, , Woofers, HF Drivers, speaker upgrades and replacement speakers. Eminence Speaker, JBL speakers, 18 Sound, B&C, EV, Tannoy, Peavey, Celestion, RCF, Jensen, Beyma, Fane, P is a good place to start and to get a rough idea on pricing.


----------



## thehatedguy

I wish I could find a hookup on the pricing at US Speakers. I can get B&C wholesale through PE...but it's the other brands like 18Sound, Faital, Beyma, and BMS that I am interested in.


----------



## Boostedrex

thehatedguy said:


> I wish I could find a hookup on the pricing at US Speakers. I can get B&C wholesale through PE...but it's the other brands like 18Sound, Faital, Beyma, and BMS that I am interested in.


I might have a line on Faital and 18Sound. Let me verify though. I'll PM you once I hear back from my possible source.


----------



## richiec77

Ah. I just bought a set of 8MB400's from US Speaker for my 18 sounds. 

Now. Could you check into the availability of 18 Sounds newest MB driver? It's the 8NW900. I E-mailed 18 Sound to see if I could get any information from them but I haven't heard back. Looks like a great replacement for the 8MB400 or 8NW420.


----------



## TokoSpeaker

Now, I use Skaaning - Denmark (FlexUnits 6) with HLCD Stevens Audio + RAAL.
These combination is very good for me.


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah I bet so...incredible drivers.


----------



## asawendo

I'm using Dynaudio Esotec Midbass, Accuton C153 midrange and Steven Audio HLCD midhigh so far so good.....


----------



## TokoSpeaker

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## thehatedguy

Now you are just showing off...lol.

Next you will be putting up a pict of the RAALs.

Bastard


----------



## TokoSpeaker

I love this FlexUnits midbass driver.





thehatedguy said:


> Now you are just showing off...lol.
> 
> Next you will be putting up a pict of the RAALs.
> 
> Bastard


----------



## subwoofery

TokoSpeaker said:


> I love this FlexUnits midbass driver.


Specs? 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

The Flex Units could at one point be built somewhat to your own needs.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> The Flex Units could at one point be built somewhat to your own needs.


Ohh yeah... I remember now. And the C-Quenze is the "based" model. 

Kelvin


----------



## richiec77

Found some information. 

http://www.audiotechnology.dk/iz.asp?id=4|a|125|||

Still not efficient enough for the typical HLCD install but the specs look nice overall. I wonder if they can build a pro-audio like 8".


----------



## thehatedguy

I am fairly certain they can.


----------



## Eric Stevens

91 dB is doing pretty good but you could trade a little bit of bottom end for more efficiency.

Eric


----------



## subwoofery

How deep are those? 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

3.6"

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/audiotec/6h521706.pdf

Those are the 6s...which in AT speak uses a 6" cone, so it would be what we normally would call a 7" driver.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> 3.6"
> 
> http://www.solen.ca/pdf/audiotec/6h521706.pdf
> 
> Those are the 6s...which in AT speak uses a 6" cone, so it would be what we normally would call a 7" driver.


Hmm... Too deep for what I wanna do. Maybe for a next project 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

If you can afford them and then if you can fit them...they will NOT disappoint. Their subs are every bit as insane as the mids. Just flat out incredible stuff. Would always be at the top of my list in a money no holds bared type of system.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> If you can afford them and then if you can fit them...they will NOT disappoint. Their subs are every bit as insane as the mids. Just flat out incredible stuff. Would always be at the top of my list in a money no holds bared type of system.


I can justify the price since you can custom the specs to your application... 
I would use Audio Technology only if I was using "normal" drivers... In a horn setup, there's many HE brands (18Sound, B&C, Faital, etc...) to choose from and would have a harder time paying that premium for a driver that might already exist... 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

This is true too.


----------



## oliezt_sayfu

how about 6,5" fostex fullrange, or beyma 6,5" neod... woofer...


----------



## subwoofery

oliezt_sayfu said:


> how about 6,5" fostex fullrange, or beyma 6,5" neod... woofer...


Which driver exactly? And what's the sensitivity #s like at 1w/1m? 
Knowing that the Fostex is a fullrange, I can tell you that it's a big NO with horns. 

Kelvin


----------



## jking29

Has anyone had any experience with these? Faital Pro 8FE200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8FE200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and woofer 8" speaker. Faital Pro 8FE200 260 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa


----------



## roduk

I am using the B&C DE250 compression drivers on Erics large bodies and have paired them with 18Sound 6ND430. I decided to go for 6" drivers for a few reasons - I have a Velodyne DF10sc sub upfront in the dash, so can play these mids quite high as the sub can play upto 80hz, so midrange and mid bass punch is key for me. I had to mount them in the doors to get extra width and again these drivers stood out on paper as they play very well and flat off axis. So 6" paper coned drivers stood out to me so they have the speed to match the horns..

I have had them in for about a year and absolutely love them, listeners have zero clue they are where they are, everything comes from the soundstage where it should do with snap, speed and power.... so I'm happy.

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=243


----------



## thehatedguy

Everyone is loving those 18Sounds drivers. Must be something to them.

To order stateside, save a few bucks, and get 8 ohm drivers?

Or

Order overseas, pay lil more, and get 4 ohm drivers?


----------



## thehatedguy

Ciare has always caught my eye...but I can find very little information about them on the web.


----------



## Boostedrex

thehatedguy said:


> Ciare has always caught my eye...but I can find very little information about them on the web.


From the research and talking I've done with people, Ciare doesn't get a lot of love due to their pricing when compared with 18Sound, Faital Pro, etc... Hard to justify a significant price difference when the lower priced gear is already stellar.


----------



## thehatedguy

The neo drivers seem to be roughly the same price...Beyma is pricest of the lot it seems. Dunno about the BMS drivers...haven't priced them in a couple of years.


----------



## fish

thehatedguy said:


> Everyone is loving those 18Sounds drivers. Must be something to them.
> 
> To order stateside, save a few bucks, and get 8 ohm drivers?
> 
> Or
> 
> Order overseas, pay lil more, and get 4 ohm drivers?



I called the people up at US Speaker to ask about the 4 ohm version. He said he could place an order for a pair (at no additional charge), BUT they would take approximately 10 weeks to arrive at my door. Patience is key.


----------



## thehatedguy

I wonder if they would bill me now or later?


----------



## thehatedguy

FWIW, Ikesound has the 18Sound listed for $99 ea.

Anyone find a lower price?


----------



## subwoofery

jking29 said:


> Has anyone had any experience with these? Faital Pro 8FE200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8FE200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and woofer 8" speaker. Faital Pro 8FE200 260 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa


Here's a list of suggestions based on the driver you linked: 
Eminence Delta Pro-8A & Delta Pro-8C speaker. The Eminence Delta Pro-8 8" speaker is a high efficiency midrange speaker. The Delta Pro-8 speakers available here. Delta Pro 8A and Delta Pro 8C 
Ciare 8.50NDW - Ciare 8.50NDW is a 8 inch lightweight neodymium speaker for all mid-bass speaker systems- Ciare Speakers - Ciare 8.50NDW 8 inch lighweight neodymium speaker for bass guitar speaker systems. Ciare 8.50NDW 8 inch mid-bass speakers avail 
B&C 8NW51 is a lightweight 8" mid-bass woofer speaker - B&C Speakers - B&C 8NW51 neodymium 8" mid-bass speaker for 2 or 3-way systems. B&C 8NW51 neodymium mid-bass speakers available now. 
^ those have a lower FS, bigger voice coil diameter, more sensitive, more Xmax (except Eminence) 
In a price point of view, I feel that the Eminence can be a good alternative to the 2118H. 

Kelvin


----------



## fish

thehatedguy said:


> FWIW, Ikesound has the 18Sound listed for $99 ea.
> 
> Anyone find a lower price?


IkeSound... really? Where'd you see that at? I can't find it. That's the cheapest I've seen (haven't actually seen it yet) by $30 something.


----------



## fish

thehatedguy said:


> I wonder if they would bill me now or later?



IIRC, I think they bill you right then & there... which is why I pussed out. :blush:


----------



## thehatedguy

Car Audio wholesale distributor Alpine Pioneer HID Lights Clarion Hifonics Kenwood Boss - Ikesound.com - Eighteen Sound 6ND430

They appear to have the whole line.


----------



## thehatedguy

These guys have Faital Pro and a couple 18Sound-

Recone Kits - Faital Pro

http://reconekits.com/18sound6nd430woofer.aspx


----------



## richiec77

thehatedguy said:


> FWIW, Ikesound has the 18Sound listed for $99 ea.
> 
> Anyone find a lower price?


You're talking about the 8MB400 right?

8MB400 - MB Ferrite Driver

if so that's a Killer deal for the 8". I paid $125 a piece for mine. So I'd go for it. The magnet really isn't that big at all. I haven't installed any of the 8's I have yet since I'm waiting on the HLCD's, but eventually I'll be able to compare some Illusion Audio 8ND's, 18 Sound 8MB400's and JBL 2119H.


----------



## fish

thehatedguy said:


> Car Audio wholesale distributor Alpine Pioneer HID Lights Clarion Hifonics Kenwood Boss - Ikesound.com - Eighteen Sound 6ND430
> 
> They appear to have the whole line.



Thanks Jason! I'm about to make a phone call to see if they can get the 4 ohm version.

Those Faitals are priced cheap. The W10N4-200 is $20 cheaper than what I paid at US Speaker. The little 3" & 4" widebanders are dirt cheap too.


----------



## thehatedguy

Y'all just save me 3 or so of them.


----------



## mikey7182

The 6ND430 was the first pro audio mid I ran in my very first horn install. I loved them. Naturally they didn't dig quite as deep as a vented 2204H, but at the time they were by far the best mids I'd heard. I replaced them with the 8NDL51, followed by the 2118H, then the Faital W8N8-150. I actually preferred the 18Sound 7" over the 8NDL51, with the 2118H being my ultimate favorite of the four. I ran the 6ND430 from 100-800hz, 4th order slopes. Great drivers.

I wouldn't worry about going to all the hassle of finding 4 ohm drivers. I think I ran 50-60w a piece at 8 ohms to mine and they got plenty loud.


----------



## thehatedguy

I am trying to find something to make me forget about the 2118s...lol. But I can't seem to escape them.

The B&Cs were ok when I heard them, but they didn't make me go "oh ****" like the JBLs did.

Spec-wise the small Ciare 8s are as close to the 2118s that I have found.

I might just get some 2118Js since they can be had on the cheapness. Gotta see if 2123s will fit, I know 2204s won't.


----------



## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> I am trying to find something to make me forget about the 2118s...lol. But I can't seem to escape them.
> 
> The B&Cs were ok when I heard them, but they didn't make me go "oh ****" like the JBLs did.
> 
> Spec-wise the small Ciare 8s are as close to the 2118s that I have found.
> 
> I might just get some 2118Js since they can be had on the cheapness. Gotta see if 2123s will fit, I know 2204s won't.


The 6ND430 wouldn't satiate your hunger for the 2118.  Are you familiar with the 2012H? It is about 3/8" deeper than the 2123, but has a lower Fs and double the xmax while maintaining about the same efficiency. It does weigh 19lbs vs. 12, which may be a deterrent if you're trying to mount them in the doors. They can utilize a fairly small enclosure. 

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2012h.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2123.pdf


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I am trying to find something to make me forget about the 2118s...lol. But I can't seem to escape them.
> 
> The B&Cs were ok when I heard them, but they didn't make me go "oh ****" like the JBLs did.
> 
> Spec-wise the small Ciare 8s are as close to the 2118s that I have found.
> 
> I might just get some 2118Js since they can be had on the cheapness. Gotta see if 2123s will fit, I know 2204s won't.


Just plotted the 2118, the 8.50NdW, the Pro-A8 and the 8NW51... 
Closest thing to the 2118 is the Eminence. 
The best in output and low Xover is the Ciare. 
B&C was actually "bad" compared to the other 3... 

I used a 1cuft sealed enclosure for the comparison since I did not know how you planned to install your driver... 

Kelvin


----------



## Horsemanwill

KA LOUDSPEAKERS - Krome Loudspeakers

KA65 (grill sold separately):
80 watts RMS/170 watts max • Coil Diameter: 1.6″ • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 150-6,000 Hz • SPL: 98 dB 1W/1m • Mounting Depth 2.875″

KA8 (grill sold separately):
150 watts RMS/310 watts max • Coil Diameter: 2″ • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 90-4,900Hz • SPL: 99 dB 1W/1m • Mounting Depth 3.625″


someone go try those


----------



## Mic10is

Horsemanwill said:


> KA LOUDSPEAKERS - Krome Loudspeakers
> 
> KA65 (grill sold separately):
> 80 watts RMS/170 watts max • Coil Diameter: 1.6″ • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 150-6,000 Hz • SPL: 98 dB 1W/1m • Mounting Depth 2.875″
> 
> KA8 (grill sold separately):
> 150 watts RMS/310 watts max • Coil Diameter: 2″ • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 90-4,900Hz • SPL: 99 dB 1W/1m • Mounting Depth 3.625″
> 
> 
> someone go try those


check your local flea market , thats what that reminds me of


----------



## Horsemanwill

i agree but look at taht sensitivity


----------



## thehatedguy

Pretty sure those look like the Pyle that PE has.


----------



## iD Z24

That looks like something will would try!


----------



## Horsemanwill

hehehe outa boredom sure y not lol


----------



## richiec77

What do they cost? Also I can't place it....but those look like re-badged something.


----------



## bigbubba

Thread marked


----------



## GlasSman

thehatedguy said:


> The Flex Units could at one point be built somewhat to your own needs.


For the price they should be 100% customizeable.


----------



## fenis

I emailed Audiotechnology and asked if they could custom make an 8" c-quenze for 94-95dB sensitivity and they said they can but "it would have a very thin cone and not at all suitable for playing bass".

I'm not sure how low they could make it play but I want to HP at 80hz/12dB.


One other pro audio driver that I have not seen mentioned is the FaitalPRO - 10FE200

I'm thinking I could squeeze this 10" driver into my doors and it looks perfect for IB (qts = 0.70, fs = 55hz). It doesn't rolloff much below 100hz so wouldn't need heaps of eq like with the other mentioned drivers and to my suprise it's still super efficient at 96dB 1w/1m.

Has anyone looked into this driver?


----------



## GlasSman

thehatedguy said:


> Pretty sure those look like the Pyle that PE has.


I always glanced right over those Pyles....looked at the for the first time today....nice basket....nice cone/phase plug.

For the price they might be worth trying for the price.

Just not sure about that higher Fs.

I don't run horns so I only run midbass from 63hz to around 180 hz.


----------



## jpeezy

Just ordered a pair of the 10 fe200's,I have been looking at them too.i am not running a lot of power.so I'll see how they sound.they are going in the kicks,either a periodic or sealed.using full body horns with d2500Ti's,I am going to try out a mod I did on the horns,see if can post a pic.


----------



## rawdawg

How would these do?

Radian - 2210


----------



## jpeezy

Those look niiicceee:0, probably out of my price range, they look like they have all the right attributes.high sensitivity,decent Xmax,low fs,good power handling,and their response curve looks really smooth.great find,try em.they are probably not cheap.but nothing in this hobby is.


----------



## req

makes me wish i never sold my horns... but i would have to make lots of modifications for make these large format speakers work.

sigh


----------



## thehatedguy

Don't trust the published specs.



rawdawg said:


> How would these do?
> 
> Radian - 2210


----------



## minbari

thehatedguy said:


> Don't trust the published specs.


or the guy who wrote the marketing paragraph, lol..



> used as a *sunwoofer* or *genreal pirpose* LF transducer.


----------



## thehatedguy

I would rather take a Eminence Deltalite 10 over the Radian.

If I had the room for 10s, that is what I would be using in my car. .


----------



## thehatedguy

Well the good news is Eric still can make more horns...I just got 3 on Tuesday.

There is still hope for you yet.




req said:


> makes me wish i never sold my horns... but i would have to make lots of modifications for make these large format speakers work.
> 
> sigh


----------



## rawdawg

3 horns? You doin' a high efficiency L7 setup?


----------



## whitet

I have some coming too... (only 2 though  )


----------



## thehatedguy

That's the plan. 3 Ultra minis with 3 ported 2118s.



rawdawg said:


> 3 horns? You doin' a high efficiency L7 setup?


----------



## rawdawg

Good Lord...


----------



## thehatedguy

Well the enclosures are about .2 cubes each after displacement, little on the small side for deep extension, but with my XO point, not worried about that. I get about 3db gain across the board depending on if I stuff the enclosures and how high/low I am tuning. Group delay is near sealed levels.

Plus they will be perfect for the BMS 8S215s once I can get them.


----------



## mitchyz250f

Are the Ultra minis ultra small; or just better minis?


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> Well the enclosures are about .2 cubes each after displacement, little on the small side for deep extension, but with my XO point, not worried about that. I get about 3db gain across the board depending on if I stuff the enclosures and how high/low I am tuning. Group delay is near sealed levels.
> 
> Plus they will be perfect for the BMS 8S215s once I can get them.


What made you go with BMS over other brands? Everytime you suggest a pro-audio driver, I see BMS. Anything in particular that appeals to you? Testing you've read or technology used? 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

JBLs now for price and I really like them.

BMS later because of warranty, weather resistant cone, and a really good motor...and the price is really good for the level of performance and build quality you get.


----------



## thehatedguy

Just Eric's mini horns with the Ultra drivers on them.




mitchyz250f said:


> Are the Ultra minis ultra small; or just better minis?


----------



## thehatedguy

Looking like sealed now...I was able to push the horns all the way back to the firewall and now they are sitting on the tops of my kicks where I had intended to put the port. Now worry about baffle step problems with the midbass being coupled that tight to the horns and under the dash.


----------



## fenis

These are the midbass drivers I'm tossing up between (mounted IB in doors) to mate with my full size horns. I've calculated the max SPL at 80hz (limited by xmax) and the power required:

_Speaker/overall diameter/xmax/*SPL @ 80hz/*power/efficiency (1w/1m)/fs_

Faital Pro 10FE200/10"/4.67mm/*108.4dB*/19w/96dB/55hz

Faital Pro 8PR200/8"/8.15mm/*108.6dB*/94w/95dB/58hz

18Sound 8MB400/8"/5.8mm/*106.9dB*/65w/95dB/64hz

18Sound 8MB500/8"/6mm/*107.4dB*/73w/95dB/74hz

B&C 8NDL51/8"/7mm/*108.3dB*/137w/94dB/66hz


I chose 80hz as a reference point as I plan to HP them at 80hz/12dB/oct.
Even though the 10FE200 is 10" in diameter, it's limited by it's low xmax. However, it only needs 19w and with a high qts of 0.70 it will require little eq. All the other 8" drivers have a qts of 0.36-0.42 and would require a lot of eq to get them sounding flat at 80hz.

I'm still undecided which driver to go with.. I think I can JUST fit the 10" in my doors but it's nice to know that the 8" drivers above can match the SPL of the 10FE200..

Anyone got any suggestions for other drivers for IB in doors?


----------



## subwoofery

fenis said:


> These are the midbass drivers I'm tossing up between (mounted IB in doors) to mate with my full size horns. I've calculated the max SPL at 80hz (limited by xmax) and the power required:
> 
> _Speaker/overall diameter/xmax/*SPL @ 80hz/*power/efficiency (1w/1m)_
> 
> Faital Pro 10FE200/10"/4.67mm/*108.4dB*/19w/96dB
> 
> Faital Pro 8PR200/8"/8.15mm/*108.6dB*/94w/95dB
> 
> 18Sound 8MB400/8"/5.8mm/*106.9dB*/65w/95dB
> 
> 18Sound 8MB500/8"/6mm/*107.4dB*/73w/95dB
> 
> B&C 8NDL51/8"/7mm/*108.3dB*/137w/94dB
> 
> 
> I chose 80hz as a reference point as I plan to HP them at 80hz/12dB/oct.
> Even though the 10FE200 is 10" in diameter, it's limited by it's low xmax. However, it only needs 19w and with a high qts of 0.70 it will require little eq. All the other 8" drivers have a qts of 0.36-0.42 and would require a lot of eq to get them sounding flat at 80hz.
> 
> I'm still undecided which driver to go with.. I think I can JUST fit the 10" in my doors but it's nice to know that the 8" drivers above can match the SPL of the 10FE200..
> 
> Anyone got any suggestions for other drivers for IB in doors?


Please provide the resonant frequency of those drivers too... 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

Buy my JBLs


----------



## fenis

subwoofery said:


> Please provide the resonant frequency of those drivers too...
> 
> Kelvin


Done. Which of these drivers would you choose for doors?


thehatedguy do you have the TS parameters of your JBL?


----------



## thehatedguy

2118h is the model.

Specs are here:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2118.pdf


----------



## fenis

thehatedguy said:


> 2118h is the model.
> 
> Specs are here:
> 
> http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2118.pdf


Thanks but their fs is too high and qts too low - wouldn't be suitable for IB doors.


----------



## bigbubba

thehatedguy said:


> Buy my JBLs


If I hadn't found a set of those last week, I'd be all over those.


----------



## subwoofery

fenis said:


> Done. Which of these drivers would you choose for doors?


IB in doors, I'd go with the Faital Pro 10FE200 - good thing is that it comes in 4 ohm version. Lower FS for what you want to do... Qts is nice and high too. 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

Sighs...back to the drawing board and looking at 6s.

B&C 6NDL38 or 44s
BMS 6S117
18Sound 6NB430s

BMS look better IB. B&C looks incredible ported. 18Sound has great 3rd part data backing it up.

Though I always have a very soft spot for Dyn MW170s...which spec wise are great- medium Fs, higher Qts and decent xmax. Just high priced as all crap.


----------



## lostthumb

I purchased a set of Beyma pro6wnd about a year ago. Do you guys think it's good candidate to match with horns and set up ib in door.

Here are some of the specs. Any help is greatly appreciated. With a family and all, it is hard to get time for trial and error.

Specifications:
Nominal diameter: 165 mm. / 6.5 in.
Rated impedance: 4 ohms
Minimum impedance: 4 ohms
Power capacity*: 150 w RMS
Program power: 300 w
Sensitivity: 97 dB / 2.83v @ 1m @ 2?
Frequency range: 70 - 9000 Hz
Recom. enclosure vol.: 10 / 30 l 0.35 / 1.06 ft.3
Voice coil diameter: 51.7 mm. / 2 in.
Magnetic assembly weight: 1.5 kg. / 3.3 lb.
BL factor: 11 N / A
Moving mass: 0.014 kg.
Voice coil length: 9 mm
Air gap height: 7 mm
X damage (peak to peak): 20 mm
Thiele-Small Parameters:
Resonant frequency, fs: 92 Hz
D.C. Voice coil resistance, Re: 3.9 ohms
Mechanical Quality Factor, Qms: 6.52
Electrical Quality Factor, Qes: 0.27
Total Quality Factor, Qts: 0.26
Equivalent Air Volume to Cms, Vas: 5.75 l
Mechanical Compliance, Cms: 210 µm / N
Mechanical Resistance, Rms: 1.35 kg / s
Efficiency, Oo (%): 1.63
Effective Surface Area, Sd (m2): 0.0140 m2
Maximum Displacement, Xmax***: 3 mm
Displacement Volume, Vd: 42 cm3
Voice Coil Inductance, Le @ 1 kHz: 0.4mH


----------



## subwoofery

lostthumb said:


> I purchased a set of Beyma pro6wnd about a year ago. Do you guys think it's good candidate to match with horns and set up ib in door.
> 
> Here are some of the specs. Any help is greatly appreciated. With a family and all, it is hard to get time for trial and error.
> 
> Specifications:
> Nominal diameter: 165 mm. / 6.5 in.
> Rated impedance: 4 ohms
> Minimum impedance: 4 ohms
> Power capacity*: 150 w RMS
> Program power: 300 w
> Sensitivity: 97 dB / 2.83v @ 1m @ 2?
> Frequency range: 70 - 9000 Hz
> Recom. enclosure vol.: 10 / 30 l 0.35 / 1.06 ft.3
> Voice coil diameter: 51.7 mm. / 2 in.
> Magnetic assembly weight: 1.5 kg. / 3.3 lb.
> BL factor: 11 N / A
> Moving mass: 0.014 kg.
> Voice coil length: 9 mm
> Air gap height: 7 mm
> X damage (peak to peak): 20 mm
> Thiele-Small Parameters:
> Resonant frequency, fs: 92 Hz
> D.C. Voice coil resistance, Re: 3.9 ohms
> Mechanical Quality Factor, Qms: 6.52
> Electrical Quality Factor, Qes: 0.27
> Total Quality Factor, Qts: 0.26
> Equivalent Air Volume to Cms, Vas: 5.75 l
> Mechanical Compliance, Cms: 210 µm / N
> Mechanical Resistance, Rms: 1.35 kg / s
> Efficiency, Oo (%): 1.63
> Effective Surface Area, Sd (m2): 0.0140 m2
> Maximum Displacement, Xmax***: 3 mm
> Displacement Volume, Vd: 42 cm3
> Voice Coil Inductance, Le @ 1 kHz: 0.4mH


Looks more like a midrange than a midbass+midrange to me... 

Qts is quite low so I wouldn't cross it below 100Hz @ 24dB/oct if used IB in doors. 

Kelvin


----------



## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Sighs...back to the drawing board and looking at 6s.
> 
> B&C 6NDL38 or 44s
> BMS 6S117
> 18Sound 6NB430s
> 
> BMS look better IB. B&C looks incredible ported. 18Sound has great 3rd part data backing it up.
> 
> Though I always have a very soft spot for Dyn MW170s...which spec wise are great- medium Fs, higher Qts and decent xmax. Just high priced as all crap.


Overall the 18 Sound have the best specs with the BMS a close second but if you can get your hands on the 4 ohm version of the 6ND430 that would be my recommendation.

Eric


----------



## subwoofery

Eric Stevens said:


> Overall the 18 Sound have the best specs with the BMS a close second but if you can get your hands on the 4 ohm version of the 6ND430 that would be my recommendation.
> 
> Eric


BOOOOOYA!!!!! 

Kelvin


----------



## fenis

subwoofery said:


> IB in doors, I'd go with the Faital Pro 10FE200 - good thing is that it comes in 4 ohm version. Lower FS for what you want to do... Qts is nice and high too.
> 
> Kelvin


What benefit is there in getting the 4ohm version when it will be 3dB less sensitive and require doubling the power thus increasing power compression? I've always been perplexed when people recommend trying to get a 4ohm version of a prosound driver.


----------



## lostthumb

subwoofery said:


> Looks more like a midrange than a midbass+midrange to me...
> 
> Qts is quite low so I wouldn't cross it below 100Hz @ 24dB/oct if used IB in doors.
> 
> Kelvin


Thank you Sir! I must rethink this.


----------



## thehatedguy

Anyone know anyone at US Speaker or who can get the 4 ohm 18Sound a little cheaper than listed?


----------



## subwoofery

fenis said:


> What benefit is there in getting the 4ohm version when it will be 3dB less sensitive and require doubling the power thus increasing power compression? I've always been perplexed when people recommend trying to get a 4ohm version of a prosound driver.


More amp power = headroom = less chance to clip 

A 4 ohm driver is 3dB less sensitive than an 8 ohm one but that's not always the case... Need to check the 1w/1m spec. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Power compression is something to consider though but with pro-audio drivers, it's higher than the norm. 

Kelvin


----------



## Eric Stevens

fenis said:


> What benefit is there in getting the 4ohm version when it will be 3dB less sensitive and require doubling the power thus increasing power compression? I've always been perplexed when people recommend trying to get a 4ohm version of a prosound driver.


8 ohm drivers are not 3dB more sensitive or efficient than 4 ohm drivers. The 4 ohm merely have a larger gauge of wire wound on the voice coil resulting in a lower impedance.

The equalizer for understanding the sensitivity thing is the "watt", 1 watt is always 1 watt regardless of impedance of the driver. So knowing what the 1 watt measured at 1 meter sensitivity is really what matters. Notice I dont mention 2.83 volts here as that is the voltage for achieving 1 watt into an 8 ohm load but it is 2 watts into 4 ohm load which increases the output by 3dB.

The reason for wanting 4 ohm drivers is the amps used in car audio are usually of the high current variety and achieve maximum power at 2 ohms. And "More Power" is the cry of the midbass trying to keep up with a 110dB sensitive HLCD.

Eric


----------



## fenis

Eric Stevens said:


> 8 ohm drivers are not 3dB more sensitive or efficient than 4 ohm drivers. The 4 ohm merely have a larger gauge of wire wound on the voice coil resulting in a lower impedance.
> 
> The equalizer for understanding the sensitivity thing is the "watt", 1 watt is always 1 watt regardless of impedance of the driver. So knowing what the 1 watt measured at 1 meter sensitivity is really what matters. Notice I dont mention 2.83 volts here as that is the voltage for achieving 1 watt into an 8 ohm load but it is 2 watts into 4 ohm load which increases the output by 3dB.
> 
> The reason for wanting 4 ohm drivers is the amps used in car audio are usually of the high current variety and achieve maximum power at 2 ohms. And "More Power" is the cry of the midbass trying to keep up with a 110dB sensitive HLCD.
> 
> Eric


Thanks for explaining that. The thing is I can never find the 1w/1m rating of the 4ohm version of the pro audio speakers I've listed above - I will email the manufacturers and see if I get a reply.


----------



## thehatedguy

If they list the speaker at 2.83v/1m and it is a 4 ohm speaker, subtract three dB from the rated spec to get the 1w/1m rating.


----------



## minbari

thehatedguy said:


> If they list the speaker at 2.83v/1m and it is a 4 ohm speaker, subtract three dB from the rated spec to get the 1w/1m rating.


This.

1w/1m is 1 watt for both. The listed sensitivity is what it is.

2.83v/1m for 8 ohm is the same 1w/1m
2.83v/1m for 4 ohm is -3 DB
2.83v/1m for 2 ohm is -6 DB
And so on

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Patrick Bateman

subwoofery said:


> What made you go with BMS over other brands? Everytime you suggest a pro-audio driver, I see BMS. Anything in particular that appeals to you? Testing you've read or technology used?
> 
> Kelvin


BMS is tough to beat. Only reason I don't use them exclusively is because I'm a cheapskate, and QSC used to sell the Celestion drivers for less than $100 a pair 

Basically a ring radiator solves a lot of the problems with compression drivers. A ring has more extended high frequency response because a dome suffers from cancellation at the apex of the dome. Not a huge problem with a direct radiator, but it's a complete p.i.t.a. on a horn because the energy is focused like a laser beam, so destructive interference rolls off your high frequencies in a huge way.

Also, according to Danley the ring radiators have an 'expanding wavefront.' Basically, as you get further and further from the radiator the wavefront continues to get larger and larger. This improves high frequency response and off-axis response. Domes are the opposite; they tend to focus the sound towards the center of the horn. *Keep in mind I haven't seen any data that proves this, but it seems logical to me.* Even Geddes has asserted that the ideal diaphragm shape for a horn or waveguide is a flat piston. And the BMS diaphragm is much closer to a flat piston than a dome is. (The BMS diaphragm is only millimeters in height, whereas a dome is about 25mm tall.)

I have some JBL home speakers here, and I've noticed the dome tweeters are noticeably flattened now; I'm guessing that JBL has figured out that flattening the dome improves it's performance on a horn.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Patrick Bateman said:


> Basically a ring radiator solves a lot of the problems with compression drivers. A ring has more extended high frequency response because a dome suffers from cancellation at the apex of the dome. Not a huge problem with a direct radiator, but it's a complete p.i.t.a. on a horn because the energy is focused like a laser beam, so destructive interference rolls off your high frequencies in a huge way.
> 
> Also, according to Danley the ring radiators have an 'expanding wavefront.' Basically, as you get further and further from the radiator the wavefront continues to get larger and larger. This improves high frequency response and off-axis response. Domes are the opposite; they tend to focus the sound towards the center of the horn. *Keep in mind I haven't seen any data that proves this, but it seems logical to me.* Even Geddes has asserted that the ideal diaphragm shape for a horn or waveguide is a flat piston. And the BMS diaphragm is much closer to a flat piston than a dome is. (The BMS diaphragm is only millimeters in height, whereas a dome is about 25mm tall.)
> 
> I have some JBL home speakers here, and I've noticed the dome tweeters are noticeably flattened now; I'm guessing that JBL has figured out that flattening the dome improves it's performance on a horn.


A ring radiator is a horn, hence the wavefront rather than spurious wave forms. Directional characteristics of all horns are controlled by the same laws of physics so they will all within reason and the design constraints of the horn have similar polar response characteristics. 

A compression driver does not suffer from your mentioned cancellation problems unless they have a poor phase plug design. A plain done driving a horn is not a compression driver (no compression effect) and yes it would suffer badly in the high frequency output area.

A phase plug performs multiple functions in a compression driver, it has 2 to 4 slits open to to the dome of the compression driver equalizing the path length of the diaphragm to the exit of the driver, the open area of the slits versus the area of the dome create the compression. 

BMS drivers claim to fame is not the flatness of the diaphragm it is the simplified phase plug design and lighter mass of the diaphragm and reduction in energy storage within the diaphragm (resonance).

Eric


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Eric Stevens said:


> A compression driver does not suffer from your mentioned cancellation problems unless they have a poor phase plug design. A plain done driving a horn is not a compression driver (no compression effect) and yes it would suffer badly in the high frequency output area.
> 
> A phase plug performs multiple functions in a compression driver, it has 2 to 4 slits open to to the dome of the compression driver equalizing the path length of the diaphragm to the exit of the driver, the open area of the slits versus the area of the dome create the compression.
> 
> BMS drivers claim to fame is not the flatness of the diaphragm it is the simplified phase plug design and lighter mass of the diaphragm and reduction in energy storage within the diaphragm (resonance).
> 
> Eric


Eric,

If you have two acoustic sources and you want them to sum properly, they need to be within approximately one quarter wavelength. If the two sources are separated by as little as one half wavelength you'll get destructive interference, because one wave will be 180 degrees out of phase with the other.

For instance, if you have two radiators playing 20khz they need to be within 4.25mm to sum properly. And that's tiny! Less than a fifth of an inch.

*And a loudspeaker behaves like an array of tiny drivers playing in unison; you can't treat the diaphragm as a single entity because energy from one point on the surface can interfere with energy on another point.*



















The above pics show some compression drivers opened up, or even cut in half. The driver with the aluminum diaphragm is a JBL 2470, the driver chopped in half is a TAD, and the tiny compression driver is a BMS 4540ND.

You can see that the drivers with a large diaphragm have a tough time meeting that quarter wavelength criteria, because the diaphragm is so darn huge, and 20khz is so darn small.

In fact, I'd argue the BMS phase plug is the most primitive of the three, but the BMS is the one that goes past 20khz, due it's small size and a diaphragm that's relatively flat.


Basically, I'd argue that there's a definite upper limit to these huge diaphragms. And that one advantage of the BMS is that the simplified geometry of the diaphragm eliminates many of the headaches inherent to conventional phase plugs combined with convex diaphragms.


----------



## Eric Stevens

Patrick,

Your statement while based in what you believe is correct knowledge is flawed. My statement might be a little strong, but your statement is far enough off to lead people without in depth knowledge to an incorrect conclusion. Unfortunately I dont have an hour to write a proper response. 

With high frequency reproduction there are many things going on that you are failing to account for in your statement. Primary one is what is termed mass disconnect where the effective diaphragm area gets reduced at higher frequencies. And yes a 4" diaphragm has a hard time with 20Khz no matter how well its engineered but that is more due to air load and mass rather than cancellation.

As I stated before the BMS does well because of the low mass, both air load (smaller diaphragm area) and diaphragm mass. Most dome shaped drivers have a mass disconnect and have little to no 20Khz being produced by the dome as you get close to the center, so most of that range will be produced by a ring portion of the whole dome at the outer edge where the voice coil attaches and therefore comea from only one slit of the phase plug anyway. Most Compression driver engineers dont really care about that area anyways as its not needed in the typical pro sound applications anyways. TAD is about the only company that really tried and all of the phase plugs engineered by Bart Lacante (sp) have a slit right at the voice coil to diaphragm joint trying to maximize output in the 20Khz range. TD2001 with a 2" diameter dome does pretty well out there especially if mounted to a shorter horn with less air load. Because that is another issue not mentioned by you and that is the effect of high frequency reproduction by the air load of the horn. Most larger horns that can play to below 1000Hz have enough of an air load to noticeably attenuate output at 20Khz.

Eric


----------



## Pimpnyou204

Out of curiousity but I'd your searching for high sensitivity drivers wouldn't the fact that 8 ohm drivers will drastically lower available power? How do u overcome that?


----------



## Horsemanwill

remember that eric's horns are 8 ohms already. so when searching for effecient drivers if it's 8 ohms you compensate for taht with the power you have.


----------



## minbari

Not only that, you only lose 3db from a 4 ohm driver. When you start with 108db, a 3db loss is nothing

Sent from my phone using digital farts


----------



## Pimpnyou204

Since your comparing and matching to a 108db at 8 ohm wouldn't the 95db at 8ohm be an even better fit if it were 95 at 4ohm? Now I also seen that people say the higher the sensitivity usually your low end output goes down or the authority atleast anyways and supposedly even more in the subwoofer category. Any truth to this?


----------



## subwoofery

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Since your comparing and matching to a 108db at 8 ohm wouldn't the 95db at 8ohm be an even better fit if it were 95 at 4ohm? Now I also seen that people say the higher the sensitivity usually your low end output goes down or the authority atleast anyways and supposedly even more in the subwoofer category. Any truth to this?


What's written next to the number under sensitivity? 2.83v/1m or 1w/1m? 
If you want to compare an 8 ohm driver to a 4 ohm one, you need the 1w/1m figure... 
FYI, the 1w/1m figure is calculated and if you have enough specs, you can calculate it yourself: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/236-post1.html 

Advantage of choosing a 4 ohm driver over an 8 ohm one when both 1w/1m sensitivity specs are the same is more available power from your amp. 

Kelvin


----------



## nadams5755

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Now I also seen that people say the higher the sensitivity usually your low end output goes down or the authority atleast anyways and supposedly even more in the subwoofer category. Any truth to this?


from what i can tell, it's all a balancing act of sensitivity, midrange performance, midbass performance, power handling, enclosure type, enclosure size, and price.


----------



## thehatedguy

It's all about Hoffman's Iron Law.


----------



## minbari

thehatedguy said:


> It's all about Hoffman's Iron Law.


X2

Sent from my phone using digital farts


----------



## Pimpnyou204

subwoofery said:


> What's written next to the number under sensitivity? 2.83v/1m or 1w/1m?
> If you want to compare an 8 ohm driver to a 4 ohm one, you need the 1w/1m figure...
> FYI, the 1w/1m figure is calculated and if you have enough specs, you can calculate it yourself:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/236-post1.html
> 
> Advantage of choosing a 4 ohm driver over an 8 ohm one when both 1w/1m sensitivity specs are the same is more available power from your amp.
> 
> Kelvin


I completely agree and i 100% understand that how ever what i am saying is.
90% of the midbasses recommended in this thread are 8 ohms and like 95ish sensitivity. Thats at minimal 13db difference with the Ultras. Wouldnt a better recommendation be something with 4ohms and 92+ sensitivity? Dropping from a 4 ohm load to 8 ohm is about half as much power so figuritively speaking instead of 100 per mid were now looking at 50 watts per mid. Since were trying to match with such a high sensitivity speaker wouldnt we want something to 90+ AND 4ohm. Yes i am aware the 8ohm to 4 ohm would be about 3db of sensitivity in a speaker.

Mainly one of the speakers that surprised me was the anarchy mids with only 85 and a 8 ohm impedance.. Why would these be recommended?


----------



## thehatedguy

There are so few 4 ohm 95 dB sensitive mids on the market...and if you are talking about a 6, then a speaker that's 95 dB at 4 ohms is pretty much going to only be a midrange.

You can find couple 92 dB 4 ohm 6s, but they will start to roll off around 100 hertz if not used ported.

If you are talking 10s or 12s, then you can have the efficiency and decent lowend.

Why the Anarchy? No freaking clue. People have a hard on for the excursion...which would be useful if you wanted them to play to 40 hertz.


----------



## Pimpnyou204

thehatedguy said:


> There are so few 4 ohm 95 dB sensitive mids on the market...and if you are talking about a 6, then a speaker that's 95 dB at 4 ohms is pretty much going to only be a midrange.
> 
> You can find couple 92 dB 4 ohm 6s, but they will start to roll off around 100 hertz if not used ported.
> 
> If you are talking 10s or 12s, then you can have the efficiency and decent lowend.
> 
> Why the Anarchy? No freaking clue. People have a hard on for the excursion...which would be useful if you wanted them to play to 40 hertz.


OK thats what i figured the 22mm of excursion looks good but pair with a horn im not seeing it. Im not really intersted in 6s mainly 8's possibly a big 7. Since im running horns i can reach slightly higher SPLs while still maintaining a good clean sounding horn and i want to move from 1 single spl IB 15 to 2 IB 15s for a little more cone area. And with that combo i think an 8 would fit a bit better as to not draw my stage to the back or too far into my highs.


----------



## thehatedguy

Even with an 8 over a 6/7 you get A LOT more choices. Those will start rolling around 100, but cabin gain is your friend in this case.


----------



## thehatedguy

These are the 8s I would be looking at if I were you...these were the 8s at the top of my list when I was looking at 8s- various prices, depths, and sonic qualities here.

Beyma 8G40 4 ohm
Ciare NDC8-3
18Sound 8BM400
BMS 8S215
B&C 8NDL51/8PS21
Sundown Neopro 8


----------



## thehatedguy

And yes I do love the JBL 2118, but the prices are just not competitive compared to new speakers with weather proof cones and warranties. And a recone kit for them is more than the other speakers cost new.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> These are the 8s I would be looking at if I were you...these were the 8s at the top of my list when I was looking at 8s- various prices, depths, and sonic qualities here.
> 
> Beyma 8G40 4 ohm
> Ciare NDC8-3
> 18Sound 8BM400
> BMS 8S215
> B&C 8NDL51/8PS21
> Sundown Neopro 8


Now that neodymium is so damn expensive, the 8PS21 is tough to beat. Under $100 from Parts Express. Loudspeakers Plus still has some P-Audio eights at 2009 prices, those are tempting too. (Simply because they should cost more, due to the much higher prices of neo these days.)


----------

