# Audio Frog in Crutchfield !!



## jpeezy

Wow just recieved Crutchfield flyer and bam theres Audio Frog on the cover.Looks to be a very premium brand.


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## JayinMI

I'm intrigued as well. Are you signed up for updates on their FB page?

Jay


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## iasca judge

It's most definitely top notch product. If you didn't get a chance to listen to it at knowledgefest then you missed out. It is an amazing line, and the founders have put a lot of thought and unique features into it. The mounting possibilities are increadable and one of a kind for custom installs.

As far as the crutchfield deal, it makes good business sense. They are guaranteed to see all map pricing or better. This protects brick and mortar stores.


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## fcarpio

I hope those 2 way passive crossovers can do equalization and time alignment as well, because at that price point that is what they are up against.


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## e=mc2

Price too low


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## Lycancatt

got a link to view the line up? I've only seen the 6.5 driver in person and they did look very well built


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## balane

Lycancatt said:


> got a link to view the line up? I've only seen the 6.5 driver in person and they did look very well built


AudioFrog: car speakers, subwoofers, and crossovers


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## Souths1der

Too rich for my blood.


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## Victor_inox

fcarpio said:


> I hope those 2 way passive crossovers can do equalization and time alignment as well, because at that price point that is what they are up against.


That what you get with very high quality caps, resistors, coils. 
they will not replace DSP but quality crossovers is what makes good speakers great. Especially if used with drivers they've been designed for.


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## Lycancatt

I think it'd make more sense and probably sell more to package it all together as a component set, sure it'd be pricy but it would also makeit easier for non diy folk to get excited about, and focal/hybrid are pricy so why not? 

I do like the idea of the big tweeters! I think most offerings for the car are too small.


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## e=mc2

^No kidding. You see the price of some of the inductors madisound carries. Lmao, forget DCR, I'm gonna rock the $4.00 20 awg jantzens


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## fcarpio

Victor_inox said:


> That what you get with very high quality caps, resistors, coils.
> they will not replace DSP but quality equalizers is what makes good speakers great. Especially if used with drivers they've been designed for.


I don't deny that, assuming you meant crossovers. The point I was trying to make is that I could EASILY skip those crossovers in favor of a decent DSP. Given the way things are nowadays with technology, you couldn't get me to buy a passive crossover, let alone for that much. Another thing, I would laso have to give up time alignment, not hapenning. To me passive crossovers are yesterday's news, but that is just me.

I honestly believe that Audio Frog is pricing itself out of the market, and I *REALLY* hope to be proven wrong on this one as I want good American companies to succeed.


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## Victor_inox

e=mc2 said:


> ^No kidding. You see the price of some of the inductors madisound carries. Lmao, forget DCR, I'm gonna rock the $4.00 20 awg jantzens


Right, how hard is to make a copper wire coil?


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## Victor_inox

fcarpio said:


> I don't deny that, assuming you meant crossovers. The point I was trying to make is that I could EASILY skip those crossovers in favor of a decent DSP. Given the way things are nowadays with technology, you couldn't get me to buy a passive crossover, let alone for that much. Another thing, I would laso have to give up time alignment. To me passive crossovers are yesterday's news, but that is just me.
> 
> I honestly believe that Audio Frog is pricing itself out of the market, and I *REALLY* hope to be proven wrong on this one.


I have no idea how autocorrect put equalizers instead of crossovers.

you probably right 99.9% will buy DSP instead of crossovers.


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## Victor_inox

fcarpio said:


> I don't deny that, assuming you meant crossovers. The point I was trying to make is that I could EASILY skip those crossovers in favor of a decent DSP. Given the way things are nowadays with technology, you couldn't get me to buy a passive crossover, let alone for that much. Another thing, I would laso have to give up time alignment. To me passive crossovers are yesterday's news, but that is just me.
> 
> I honestly believe that Audio Frog is pricing itself out of the market, and I *REALLY* hope to be proven wrong on this one.


Crutchfield probably makes 50-60% profit margin on new guys.


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## Victor_inox

Lycancatt said:


> I think it'd make more sense and probably sell more to package it all together as a component set, sure it'd be pricy but it would also makeit easier for non diy folk to get excited about, and focal/hybrid are pricy so why not?
> 
> I do like the idea of the big tweeters! I think most offerings for the car are too small.


 With majority of installs been 2 way it makes more sense to make bigger tweeters to broaden RF. I like 1.5" tweeter idea.


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## REGULARCAB

Victor_inox said:


> With majority of installs been 2 way it makes more sense to make bigger tweeters to broaden RF. I like 1.5" tweeter idea.


I agree with that. Only issue I see with larger tweets is they will beam earlier and will start to roll off sooner if placed off axis.


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## fcarpio

Victor_inox said:


> Crutchfield probably makes 50-60% profit margin on new guys.


Yeah, look around and see how many speaker boners we get from companies that have nothing to do with Crutchfield. Maybe they are going to get a lot of exposure from Crutchfield, I just hope it is favorable.

Sorry if I am a little edgy, but those $400 two way passive crossovers really ticked me off. Damn, for that price at least allow for biamping. Sheezzz.

OK, I am done.


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## sirbOOm

I hate the name but that 2.5" midrange looks like a contender along with Ground Zero's midrange for my dash if my Pioneer Stage 4 setup for some reason disappoints me when I'm done. The perfect size for a midrange, IMO. 3" is too big. 4" is nuts. Don't need that massive grill and surround thing, though. Nothing like making a small speaker look bigger... I don't like that. But in other threads here on the forum folks have said AF is good stuff. I guess some people are competing with them already and beating Hybrid Audio-equipped cars (they win a lot)... but that could be hearsay.


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## REGULARCAB

I will say, leave It to us DIYMA guys to bash what is probably a fricken stellar product.


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## Lycancatt

luckily I'm in California so I think i'll have a chance to hear some soon, at least I sincerely hope so. I don't mind the name, not sure the motivation behind it but shows a bit of humor/we're not taking ourselves super seriously, and I can always appreciate a bit less snobbery from the people making/selling us products.


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## Victor_inox

you can modify them to allow biamping most of the time. I agree they should have been


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## Darth SQ

No 8s?
No 6.5s?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## mikey7182

fcarpio said:


> I don't deny that, assuming you meant crossovers. The point I was trying to make is that I could EASILY skip those crossovers in favor of a decent DSP. Given the way things are nowadays with technology, you couldn't get me to buy a passive crossover, let alone for that much. Another thing, I would laso have to give up time alignment, not hapenning. To me passive crossovers are yesterday's news, but that is just me.
> 
> I honestly believe that Audio Frog is pricing itself out of the market, and I *REALLY* hope to be proven wrong on this one as I want good American companies to succeed.


From another angle, think of all the companies who package 2-way component sets for >$1k, forcing the DIY crowd to buy the passives when they'll likely ditch them? How many of us have opted for some raw drivers instead of a Focal/Rainbow/Dyn set because of this? I stopped buying component sets almost a decade ago because once I 'went active' as the popular catch phrase once went, I didn't see the value in plugging down $800 for a passive comp set when I was going to turn around and ditch the xovers.

I wouldn't say they're pricing themselves out of the market simply because they're selling passive xovers as a separate option. $399 looks like a lot on paper, but if it was a $1350 2-way passive bundle, would it stand out as much to you, or just look like a high end passive kit? I'm with you in that $400 buys a lot of processing power, but there are a ton of guys out there who don't DIY and who would be more than happy to pull into a shop with their 911 Turbo and drop $1500 on a high end passive set, who don't care about bi-amplification and who are never going to spend hours behind a laptop trying to tweak their TA. That, and a truly well-designed passive for two specific drivers is worth a lot more money than some one-size-fits-all that come in most passive sets. Would I buy them? Probably not. But that's about the only item on their list that didn't get my attention.

All their other drivers seem on par with MSRP of a lot of popular drivers around here, including HAT, Illusion, Scan, etc. 

I too hope they do well. There is some solid industry knowledge between the few guys involved here, and I'm sure they've done their market research before deciding how to price and package this gear.


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## Jesus Christ

Victor_inox said:


> quality crossovers is what makes good speakers great. Especially if used with drivers they've been designed for.


Doesn't matter how good the components used or whether it's designed for their drivers if they aren't designed for the specific car and mounting locations they'll be used in.


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## Victor_inox

I agree with mikey don`t need crossovers- don`t buy them but unless you build your own crossovers don`t bash theirs. buy just drivers and your favorite DSP.


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## sirbOOm

mikey7182 said:


> From another angle, think of all the companies who package 2-way component sets for >$1k, forcing the DIY crowd to buy the passives when they'll likely ditch them? How many of us have opted for some raw drivers instead of a Focal/Rainbow/Dyn set because of this? I stopped buying component sets almost a decade ago because once I 'went active' as the popular catch phrase once went, I didn't see the value in plugging down $800 for a passive comp set when I was going to turn around and ditch the xovers.
> 
> I wouldn't say they're pricing themselves out of the market simply because they're selling passive xovers as a separate option. $399 looks like a lot on paper, but if it was a $1350 2-way passive bundle, would it stand out as much to you, or just look like a high end passive kit? I'm with you in that $400 buys a lot of processing power, but there are a ton of guys out there who don't DIY and who would be more than happy to pull into a shop with their 911 Turbo and drop $1500 on a high end passive set, who don't care about bi-amplification and who are never going to spend hours behind a laptop trying to tweak their TA. That, and a truly well-designed passive for two specific drivers is worth a lot more money than some one-size-fits-all that come in most passive sets. Would I buy them? Probably not. But that's about the only item on their list that didn't get my attention.
> 
> All their other drivers seem on par with MSRP of a lot of popular drivers around here, including HAT, Illusion, Scan, etc.
> 
> I too hope they do well. There is some solid industry knowledge between the few guys involved here, and I'm sure they've done their market research before deciding how to price and package this gear.


Yes, but you can get away with no processor and bi-amping passives, which you can't do with these, and us time alignment in the deck. Wouldn't be perfect but would be pretty close. There's that gap between standard passive and totally active that needs some fill, IMO. Using deck processing abilities (not much but there) and bi-amping is one of those in-betweens.

But... we're criticizing a brand of speaker that I don't think any of us have heard. I can't wait to see how folks measure them up - at that price point, you're going to get people who have top end Focal and Morel and Dynaudio in their car switching to this and giving their two cents. I really don't care what the TalkAudio.uk guy and mobile audio review site say... everything they test are apparently "great!". I look forward to what the rich people have to say, hahaha.


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## Victor_inox

Agree again, never bash anything you haven`t heard yourself.


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## cajunner

my input is look at the target demographic.

I feel like Andy is honing in on the +40 crowd that wants considerable upgrade from factory units but isn't necessarily DSP ready.

Someone like that can appreciate an L-Pad and a crossover that works well, because it reminds them of their 2channel at home.

Also, in the race for price competitive buyer demand, a complete system designed to work together will accomplish 80% of what a DIY guy will get after a couple of hours with a DSP, and as a bonus he's able to install them himself because somebody paid attention to the install bits.

So he gets amazing speakers, can drive them with a single amp, they tune in place without extra work like jumpers, or brass bars in sockets, just a twist of the knob will do ya, and they list under the more expensive offerings and make better sound out of the box.

I think it's a savvy marketing move to use Crutchfield to distribute, as it makes a linear path to the consumer and gives local dealers a cut-off point at which MAP is enforced, by Crutchfield's discount.

If your local guy can't give you good access to the brand, you have a respected online dealer to go to and no shady business with guys like the Deep Discount, or Online Car stereo pinching out the retail market with big markdowns.

Everyone will have access, the speaker kit is easy to put in for the home guy, and the prices are great considering that most real DIY types are going active and DSP so they don't lose money on the crossover.

When you consider the ease of tuning using the L-Pad in actual use, by people who don't run their RTA software each week, you get the idea that we're in a new niche, carved out and designed by craftsmen who care about the sound.


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## fcarpio

sirbOOm said:


> But... we're criticizing a brand of speaker that I don't think any of us have heard. I can't wait to see how folks measure them up - at that price point, you're going to get people who have top end Focal and Morel and Dynaudio in their car switching to this and giving their two cents. I really don't care what the TalkAudio.uk guy and mobile audio review site say... everything they test are apparently "great!". I look forward to what the rich people have to say, hahaha.


I was only crtiticizing their crossover design and pricing, I can't possibly criticize the rest.


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## miniSQ

cajunner said:


> my input is look at the target demographic.
> 
> I feel like Andy is honing in on the +40 crowd that wants considerable upgrade from factory units but isn't necessarily DSP ready.
> 
> Someone like that can appreciate an L-Pad and a crossover that works well, because it reminds them of their 2channel at home.


I am going to guess that anyone who is ready to drop $400 on a passive crossover, is "dsp ready".

I am over 40 and just in the past year added a DSP to my system, i dont think there is much a market out there for the products being offered here, especially at the prices posted. I hate to say this, but its my guess that the guys in charge of this company may have let their egos get in the way of some sound business decisions. 

Now, if this stuff streets for 50% of those prices, then they should sell a little better.


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## I800C0LLECT

The passive crossover point is 3200Hz. The L pad is perfect. no reason to time correct the tweeters because our ears are more sensitive to amplitude in that range...hence, no need to bi-amp.

I agree...pricey, as is every audio product on Crutchfield. I think those passive crossovers are perfect. Use the L pad to turn down/off tweeters while time correcting the mids and then adjust their output for final touch.


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## cajunner

miniSQ said:


> I am going to guess that anyone who is ready to drop $400 on a passive crossover, is "dsp ready".
> 
> I am over 40 and just in the past year added a DSP to my system, i dont think there is much a market out there for the products being offered here, especially at the prices posted. I hate to say this, but its my guess that the guys in charge of this company may have let their egos get in the way of some sound business decisions.
> 
> Now, if this stuff streets for 50% of those prices, then they should sell a little better.


how many posts do you have on a car audio forum?

I don't believe Andy is targeting you.


I think he's targeting the guy that doesn't frequent forums, but likes his sound and is willing to spend for it.

there's a lot more of them than there are us, the forum dogs.


The regular guy with a lot of disposable income and who has been talked into an Anthem/Emotiva set-up at home with Fathom subs and maybe a nice turntable to go with the DVD transport..


a music lover, successful in the job and looking at the top 3 brands when he walks in the door, and is going to choose one, even if all three retail in the ~1400 dollar range or better.


And who doesn't mind spending that much, since his home audio gives him a lot of pleasure and he spent say, 10K for that.

We ***** about 400 for a passive crossover that basically removes the need for active crossover, and can be adjusted by a monkey.


This guy, isn't fazed because he has heard them and the competition.


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## Huckleberry Sound

Everyone has some great points about it all.
At the end of the day if I owned a stereo company and wanted to sell product to the mass you would have to keep the price down, simple and delivery the best product period.

Price point is everything to the masses. To high or and the majority have left the building. To the rest of them of the quality of product is not conducive to the price point. There goes the rest.

Right now I feel Crutchfield for them is about getting out to the masses very very quickly. If they were to do what Crurchfield is offering, they would go broke from the start or there price of there products would double. To get your products out to millions of people that fast. You cant buy that kind of resource any were. So hey, going the crutchfield wrought will take some profit. But on the flip, it allows them to directly jump of those who did not. I would really imagine someone had the right relationship with someone at Crutchfield that got this door wide open. Like we all should. We will wish them the best!


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## fcarpio

I800C0LLECT said:


> no reason to time correct the tweeters because our ears are more sensitive to amplitude in that range...hence, no need to bi-amp.


I can time align my tweeters by ear and I can hear the "center" move from side to side as I change the offset.

Take a look at this:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...5069-better-technique-ear-time-alignment.html


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## miniSQ

cajunner said:


> how many posts do you have on a car audio forum?
> 
> I don't believe Andy is targeting you.
> 
> 
> I think he's targeting the guy that doesn't frequent forums, but likes his sound and is willing to spend for it.
> 
> there's a lot more of them than there are us, the forum dogs.
> 
> 
> The regular guy with a lot of disposable income and who has been talked into an Anthem/Emotiva set-up at home with Fathom subs and maybe a nice turntable to go with the DVD transport..
> 
> 
> a music lover, successful in the job and looking at the top 3 brands when he walks in the door, and is going to choose one, even if all three retail in the ~1400 dollar range or better.
> 
> 
> And who doesn't mind spending that much, since his home audio gives him a lot of pleasure and he spent say, 10K for that.
> 
> We ***** about 400 for a passive crossover that basically removes the need for active crossover, and can be adjusted by a monkey.
> 
> 
> This guy, isn't fazed because he has heard them and the competition.


walks into what door? If you were talking about $6000 home speakers i would agree with everything you said.

But this is car audio....that client you just described is driving a lexus or a BMW, and is not going to order $400 passive crossovers or $600 subs from Crutchfield, and crack open his car on the weekend to install.

Its just my opinion.


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## McKinneyMike

I have to agree with mini SQ overall. AF is treading in water that is neither fish nor fowl. I would expect AF to add brick and mortar dealers ASAP to provide them with a source for those BMW and Mercedes owners to listen to what they are having installed. These folks will rarely lift a finger to do anything to their cars other than wash, and drive them. I wish Andy all the best! I would never buy anything that I could not see, touch and above all else "hear" first.


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## cajunner

miniSQ said:


> walks into what door? If you were talking about $6000 home speakers i would agree with everything you said.
> 
> But this is car audio....that client you just described is driving a lexus or a BMW, and is not going to order $400 passive crossovers or $600 subs from Crutchfield, and crack open his car on the weekend to install.
> 
> Its just my opinion.



it's a good opinion and I'd normally be inclined to agree with you but I'm an optimist and I think Andy's gamble will pay off.

I believe that the speakers are going to be demonstrably better on a sound board, since you can stand there and twist the L-pad until it hits that perfect blend.

That is going to sell some speakers.

Those other contenders are all about lifting up some brass pins and pushing them in some slots then reassembling the crossover then listening....


there's a gap there.

The DSP issue is that when a guy goes to sell a set of components, the customer doesn't want to hear, "yes, we just put that passive crossover back in the box, mmkay? We have an active system and you won't need that" because nobody likes to pay for something they won't use.


I think that the right sales guy can get Audio Frog speakers out the door based on just those two things, the ease in tuning and not needing to go active to have great sound.

A lot of people here are sold all the way on DSP but it's still a finicky proposition, on a sound board you can't display the DSP's quality because in a sound board you can get in the middle...

it's just not the same. And when a passive crossover is designed well, it has everything built into it, that the drivers need to make a complementary combination of audio bands so that you can easily find yourself struggling with a weak DSP's control functions just to approach the quality of sound you're getting from the passive crossover, in real world terms, in service.

I think it's easier to sell the Audio Frog gimmick, than it is to convince people they need to learn how to tune a DSP because the shop might set it right but you have to go back and tune it again when it blips and brain farts or the mechanic disconnects the battery or something like an amp fails and has to be removed...

Nobody needs to learn anything with the Audio Frog, you get someone to turn the one knob until you can hear everything fall into place, and then you're done!


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## ErinH

You guys act as if Andy has no pulse on the market. I don't understand it. 

As for the products, based on the objective data Andy's provided (which few 'car audio' mfg's do), the product is Scanspeak quality in every sense of the word. Excellent linearity with respect to excursion and EXCELLENT cone damping with respect to out-of-band frequency response. These two factors are huge contributors to linear and non-linear distortion and Andy's products nails them. It's like he's taken the frequency response of the Scan Discovery line and tied it to the Scan Illuminator motor performance. I, for one, am very excited about what he's got coming out. 

As for how he's chosen to package the items, again, I'll just refer back to his extensive history. The dude's been managing car audio products longer than some people in this thread have been alive, I believe.


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## sirbOOm

For these speakers/this brand to get a bite, I think it'd take shops like Musicar Northwest in OR, Simplicity in Sound in CA, Audiomasters in NC, Octave in FL, and Audiomasters in NC. At least from what I've seen of their work, they are capable not just installing speakers but "enhancing interiors" around car audio equipment. I would not simply bolt in these Audiofrogs with Crutchfields free flimsy ass Metra adapter and call it a day... that'd be ridiculous. Crutchfield best be providing something better, if anything at all, otherwise they're going to get a lot of returns from disappointed richies.

I also sometimes wonder if Crutchfield's car audio "division" is doing well. I've noticed a significant drop of available/listed amplifiers. Sure they have the JL and Alpine but they used to have a full Focal range that are not presently disco'd by the manufacturer.. not anymore. Seems a little fishy to me. Their immense variety is dwindling. I honestly think they should stop including Metra adapters "free" without insisting on the sale of some speaker gasketing foam for them and/or Dynamat or some other CLD material. I remember back in high school sending speakers back to them numerous times because "they had no bass". Eventually I figured out that the Metra adapters they gave me were holding things back, even after "Dynama EXTREEEEEME" and foam tape. That and getting my first Alpine HU replacing a Panasonic - boy was that night and day.


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## I800C0LLECT

fcarpio said:


> I can time align my tweeters by ear and I can hear the "center" move from side to side as I change the offset.
> 
> Take a look at this:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...5069-better-technique-ear-time-alignment.html



I'm not discounting your thread or trying to rewrite the books. Simply, above mid-level range, inter-aural amplitude is how we primarily discern right vs. left. There's a lot of neat install tricks so that the mid and tweeter play on the same plane but amplitude is primarily how our mind ascertain right vs. left in regards to the tweeter in audio frog's setup.

Andy attempted to explain this many many times whenever asked about running 2-way on a single channel from the ms-8. But...it's crossover point dependent.

That's why there isn't a need to bi-amp. It's exactly why car audio passive crossovers should include an L pad for proper installation.


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## tbomb

As has been mentioned preivbously, we think we are the only market out there. If we were then every manufacture would have their own P99 available to us. I feel like, before the bit one came along, very few everyday joes had any clue about dsps or eq's. This upped the ante as far as what we "thought" had to be done to have good sound and opened the flood gates for others. There have been plenty of passive systems that sound fantastic. Why all the bashing of a product that people have been begging him to make?! Yet you all drop hard $$ on Legatia without batting an eye. Everyone has been begging him for info on these things, which he has been quite accommodating. Even alluding to the price point from the very beginning. Now that its all out, the complaining starts.

Not everyone wants outboard dsp. Just strong power through an awesomely built passive will make a lot of people happy. Perhaps, if anything, he should have just made a package with the Xover instead of it being stand alone. This is definitely a case of you getting what you pay for, and them some.


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## Darth SQ

ErinH said:


> You guys act as if Andy has no pulse on the market. I don't understand it.
> 
> As for the products, based on the objective data Andy's provided (which few 'car audio' mfg's do), the product is Scanspeak quality in every sense of the word. Excellent linearity with respect to excursion and EXCELLENT cone damping with respect to out-of-band frequency response. These two factors are huge contributors to linear and non-linear distortion and Andy's products nails them. It's like he's taken the frequency response of the Scan Discovery line and tied it to the Scan Illuminator motor performance. I, for one, am very excited about what he's got coming out.
> 
> As for how he's chosen to package the items, again, I'll just refer back to his extensive history. The dude's been managing car audio products longer than some people in this thread have been alive, I believe.


LIKE!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## porscheman

sirbOOm said:


> For these speakers/this brand to get a bite, I think it'd take shops like Musicar Northwest in OR, Simplicity in Sound in CA, Audiomasters in NC, Octave in FL, and Audiomasters in NC.


at least one of those places has a set in hand


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## diy.phil

Some/many of the said nice cars are leased... normally the people don't mess with the stereo or motor/body parts since these are like rental cars.


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## sirbOOm

Surely Simplicity in Sound. 

I *love* that he's selling things separately and I hope this creates a trend. You can do this with Hertz/Audison stuff, for example, already and still buy a purpose-built passive if you want, but it's nice to see another company (excluding raw drivers) join in on this approach. And Audiofrog is pushing that note vs. Hertz/Audison really wanting you to sell a component set that just happens to come in separate boxes. All it takes as a website that helps you put together the combination that's best for you to bridge the gap between "OMG it doesn't all come in one box, what am I gonna do" and "I want to take advantage of the customization he has here but I would like some help".

Nothing pisses me off more than to be sold and have to pay "extra" for a crossover if I don't need it or, in the case of Pioneer Stage 4 stuff as a fitting example, to be sold a 2-way crossover that isn't really that useful if you also wish to include their 2.5" midrange in the mix. Audison Voce's approach of a crossover for the midrange and tweeter and not for the midbass makes a lot more sense to me (in the case of 3-ways). Digressing...


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## Victor_inox

diy.phil said:


> Some/many of the said nice cars are leased... normally the people don't mess with the stereo or motor/body parts since these are like rental cars.


True that.

Someone else mentioned that before and I agree that Audio Frog is terrible name and a set off for many. what any frog has to do with audio beside that some frogs can get stupidly loud.


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## fcarpio

I800C0LLECT said:


> I'm not discounting your thread or trying to rewrite the books. Simply, above mid-level range, inter-aural amplitude is how we primarily discern right vs. left. There's a lot of neat install tricks so that the mid and tweeter play on the same plane but amplitude is primarily how our mind ascertain right vs. left in regards to the tweeter in audio frog's setup.
> 
> Andy attempted to explain this many many times whenever asked about running 2-way on a single channel from the ms-8. But...it's crossover point dependent.
> 
> That's why there isn't a need to bi-amp. It's exactly why car audio passive crossovers should include an L pad for proper installation.


Can you post a link for this? I would like to read up some.


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## Darth SQ

sirbOOm said:


> Surely Simplicity in Sound.
> 
> I *love* that he's selling things separately and I hope this creates a trend. You can do this with Hertz/Audison stuff, for example, already and still buy a purpose-built passive if you want, but it's nice to see another company (excluding raw drivers) join in on this approach. And Audiofrog is pushing that note vs. Hertz/Audison really wanting you to sell a component set that just happens to come in separate boxes. All it takes as a website that helps you put together the combination that's best for you to bridge the gap between "OMG it doesn't all come in one box, what am I gonna do" and "I want to take advantage of the customization he has here but I would like some help".
> 
> Nothing pisses me off more than to be sold and have to pay "extra" for a crossover if I don't need it or, in the case of Pioneer Stage 4 stuff as a fitting example, to be sold a 2-way crossover that isn't really that useful if you also wish to include their 2.5" midrange in the mix. Audison Voce's approach of a crossover for the midrange and tweeter and not for the midbass makes a lot more sense to me (in the case of 3-ways). Digressing...


SIS has had some for awhile now.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Jroo

a couple of things jumped out at me when I saw the crutchfield flyer. First, I had sticker shock. I like that you can buy the componets seperately, but all togther this ends up being well over a grand. Also agree, that the person that is really putting that much money on speakers is more than likely not going to use the passive. Although I just saw a kid drop well over 10k on a system. His car was sitting in the install bay when I went to a local shop. Dont know the model number, but he bought two sets of the Focals that come in the metal case and installer said he was 5k in just on the seperates. Kid put well over a grand in sound deadning using that black hole stuff. So yes its not me, but there will be a few that pick them up.

Second name threw me off, but I know they had to have done some type of market research. 

Third, I have been to the crutchfield stores lately and havent been impressed. They seem to be very best buyish IMO. I will say I havent called becasue I have access to the stores, but car audio seemed to be the last thing they were worried about. The salesmen I delt with really couldnt answer car audio questions and referred me to the installers that were either too busy or not there on several occassions. The questions they did answer were read word for word out of what they say online. I say this to say how many 1000 dollar car audio speakers is crutchfield really going to move? Seems to me that they wanted to sell flat screens and the car audio stuff is stuck on a table. Dont get me wrong, not bashing the product and hope to hear them and hope they do well. Car audio is a shrinking market, people who buy 1k worth of tweeter and mids are even a smaller market, so just wonder if that type of person is going to crutchfield to buy then.


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## sirbOOm

They probably don't like car audio because people return it all the time.


----------



## hot9dog

No matter how you view this subject or your opinion, one thing is for certain.... educating and introducing the mass market to high end car audio is NOT a bad thing. How this story unfolds in the next couple of months will be interesting. .... good luck to Audio Frog. Its always nice to see a new chapter being written in the novel of car audio history.


----------



## Victor_inox

Hopefully it will not be in history only.


----------



## hot9dog

I agree!


----------



## diy.phil

Honestly that Crutchfield is a great place for Andy to start. Anyways they've been around for 40 years, older than old school, and some of us have bought stuff from them many times in the last quarter century and still trust them.


----------



## Bayboy

Is it high priced? To many, yes, but being at Crutchfield has an advantage that no other does... customer service when it comes to returns for whatever reason. That is where I would buy from if spending that sort of coin. Would you feel comfortable taking a chance on dropping over a G just on drivers elsewhere? I know I couldn't. How many other shops (brick & mortar or online) will let you return gear just because you didn't like it & without hassle? That has always been Crutchfield's strength. 

I hope to see AF do well. I'm sure down the line somewhere we will see a bit lower line that others can afford and includes consumers like many here. Even Hybrid and other "high end" brands do the same. Just have patience and let the upper echelon pay for kick-off expenses.


----------



## Velozity

You know, this thread has me thinking. When was the last time we saw an American car audio company being born? I'm not talking about a new car audio division of an existing home/pro electronics company, nor a brand that focuses on only one product type, but a brand spanking new full-line (amps, speakers, subs, dsp/eq/xo) car audio company? The last one I can think of is JL Audio, preceded by Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, Kicker, and Rockford Fosgate. What are/were some others? And if there are others that either did or didn't survive, were they ever offered in Crutchfield? 

The launch of AudioFrog could be another very significant milestone in our industry's history.


*Edit*- I forgot Image Dynamics and Soundstream


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## I800C0LLECT

fcarpio said:


> Can you post a link for this? I would like to read up some.


You can do a search on psycho-acoustics or inter-aural amplitude vs inter-aural distance.

When dsp's went crazy the topic was discussed at length many times. Lycan mentioned it specifically with his method of rear fill. Andy is very familiar with all of these concepts and that's why his gear plays right into these. 

i.e. a tweeter that plays low enough to remove issues with the mid beaming but still plays high enough so that it will not require it's own channel for time alignment.


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## I800C0LLECT

I think getting listed as THE brand on Crutchfield will set the tone for who they are and where they stand. When you need market penetration...You can't beat Crutchfield.

I had friends mentioning Pioneer stage 4 and focal yet they had never once seen this site or understood the fundamentals for install.


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## miniSQ

hot9dog said:


> No matter how you view this subject or your opinion, one thing is for certain.... educating and introducing the mass market to high end car audio is NOT a bad thing. How this story unfolds in the next couple of months will be interesting. .... good luck to Audio Frog. Its always nice to see a new chapter being written in the novel of car audio history.


And are you saying that this is some kind of "first"? The market is saturated with both education, and very good high end car audio products, most of it selling at or below the published pricing in the Crutchfield flyer.

I'm not trying to knock the product or the company, i just think it takes a ton of balls to come out of the gate with comps and subs that are all in the top 1% in terms of overall cost when compared to the rest of the market.

Someone mention that these were in the same quality level of ScansSpeak...well cool, thats awesome....they are also almost twice as expensive. And i would guess that for every tweeter scan sells to the car market, they sell 50 to the home market. And i would bet for every driver that scan sells to the US market, they also sell 50 to the european market.

Will audio frog be able to do the same?


----------



## ErinH

miniSQ said:


> I'm not trying to knock the product or the company, i just think it takes a ton of balls to come out of the gate with comps and subs that are all in the top 1% in terms of overall cost when compared to the rest of the market.


LOL. Apparently you've forgotten (or just didn't know) that some of the more popular brands today came out the gate with high priced drive units. 





miniSQ said:


> Someone mention that these were in the same quality level of ScansSpeak...well cool, thats awesome....they are also almost twice as expensive.


That's only partially correct. The Scanspeak 12mu is $275/driver. The AF 4" is $499/pair. So, the scan is about $50/pair + shipping more. And, frankly, from a midrange perspective the AF looks at first glance to be better. 
The 12m (revelator) has less motor impressiveness but excellent cone control and runs about $560/pair + shipping.

There are other variances in pricing. 

The fact is, Andy has priced the drivers at what he feels is adequate. The data shows it's the top tier drivers available to the market from a branded car audio company (heck, it may very well be _the_ best, based on the car audio drive units I've tested).


We can all sit here and blab on and on about the price. The bottom line is we will help dictate that by paying or not paying. It's the same as any other commodity. There are numerous car-fi brands with VERY expensive items that I can point to as being incredibly overpriced based on the ACTUAL data. But people are going to buy what they want at the end of the day. I, for one, am at least happy Andy is putting out a product that is superb, even if I can't afford it. If enough people are in the same boat as I am, I suspect the pricing will begin to reflect that. But for now, Andy's doing what he chooses based on his numerous years of experience in the business. Dude ain't no spring chicken.


----------



## DonH

I love it. Cut this race to zero crap and introduce nice equipment again.


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## Victor_inox

I`d watch closely their scratch and dent department, usually you can get pristine gear at half retail.


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## Victor_inox

none of it in stock anyways. and only speakers listed as of today, who was talking about amps etc.


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## lizardking

Very nice. However, the performance won't match the price. It seldom does, especially when you can head to parts express or madisound for something in my opinion....Superior.


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## lizardking

Didn't I just read somewhere on here that Precision Power's new comp set pissed on everything at some contest? Most points? Not bad for a $250 pair of speakers. LMAO


----------



## Velozity

Victor_inox said:


> none of it in stock anyways. and only speakers listed as of today, who was talking about amps etc.



AudioFrog is also going to release amps and a processor(s) according to an article in Mobile Electronics:


_"ME: What is the product rollout map for the next year?

Wehmeyer: We’re going to launch a series of high-end speakers and subs at KnowledgeFest and another line shortly thereafter. We’ll also do amps and signal processing once the launch of the speakers is underway. All Audiofrog products are developed from the ground up and that takes time and money. There are many possibilities, but right now we’re focused on launching our speakers."_


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## hot9dog

miniSQ said:


> And are you saying that this is some kind of "first"? The market is saturated with both education, and very good high end car audio products, most of it selling at or below the published pricing in the Crutchfield flyer.


I dont view this as some sort of "first"...... the sources of education of products are out there in volumes, but to alot of "general" consumers- Crutchfield is an easy way to learn of new technology or products. Plus- it sure beats the heck out of talking about the cookie cutter crap equipment that is out there nowadays... lol


----------



## Orion525iT

miniSQ said:


> But this is car audio....that client you just described is driving a lexus or a BMW, and is not going to order $400 passive crossovers or $600 subs from Crutchfield, and crack open his car on the weekend to install.
> 
> Its just my opinion.


I agree. This has nothing to do with ill will. But AF is targeting an elite audience, and it is a crap shoot. Are the potential buyers going to recognize subtle differences in frequency response and time alignment? I doubt it for 99% of the clients. 

It's a weird dynamic in the American economy right now. I know I guy that makes a killing on custom bathrooms, despite the economic hardships most Americans feel. His clients are high end. He charges high dollar, but has *good name recognition*. As an individual, he could never make the money he does by targeting the masses with a new toilet and some grout. The new toilet and grout people are most likely going to do it themselves if they can, and feel proud about it and learn some things along the way. So who gets better results? I can guess that diy guy can get equal functionality and tailor exactly what they need. But the custom bathroom guy can feel good too even though the toilet flushes and sends everybody's **** to the same place.

It's not about the product really. I am sure these are great drivers. It's the targeted audience. Does it make sense for most of us here? No! Should that piss us off? Not at all! We are not the target. Sure, some will plunk down, but for the majority of us here it is out of reach and doesn't make much sense. Why should anybody take issue with that? It's why we do what we do. We can spend a 1/10th and get great results.


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## generalkorrd

Am I the only one who looks at this AF stuff and sees Boston Acoustics all over it? Maybe BA oem's for AF?

Way too much money in any case, esp for an unknown company.


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## Victor_inox

That weird dynamic in American economy called elimination of middle class.
HI end anything for high end making money customers. 
but high end customers will never buy hyundai genesis because their status symbol digging buddies will never approve that. 
Same analogy goes to anything, car audio Home theater, jewelery, etc.
How many of you will buy ****ing iphone for a thousand dollars? 
I know these people they will not buy anything without name recognition, these goes your theory of rich buyers. You have to find some clown like Dr Dre to endorse it, then maybe.
Ohh BTW many members here buy even more expensive speakers as most critical part of any audio system. Esotars, relevators, morels, hats,etc. So I think AF is pointed more towards buyers who believe they knows what they`re doing.


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## ndm

generalkorrd said:


> Am I the only one who looks at this AF stuff and sees Boston Acoustics all over it? Maybe BA oem's for AF?
> 
> Way too much money in any case, esp for an unknown company.


If this was Bostons return to car audio...Which I know it is not....I would be thrilled. I am and was a Boston acoustics fan all day long. 

I have three and a half sets of Boston Acoustics Z6 components that I have compiled for future use.


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## t3sn4f2

ErinH said:


> That's only partially correct. The Scanspeak 12mu is $275/driver. The AF 4" is $499/pair. So, the scan is about $50/pair + shipping more. And, frankly, from a midrange perspective the AF looks at first glance to be better.
> The 12m (revelator) has less motor impressiveness but excellent cone control and runs about $560/pair + shipping.


To add, I don't think Scan and others offer the following. 

"Durability: The Audiofrog GB25 midrange drivers are tested in temperature and humidity extremes, as well as under vibration to simulate 50,000 miles of operation in a vehicle. The Nitrile-Butadiene Rubber (NBR) surround is resistant to ultraviolet rays, temperature extremes, and humidity to add to the speaker's reliability and longevity.

Installation: Hardware is included for several mounting methods. The drivers can be top mounted behind factory grilles, top mounted using the included grilles along with the grille trays and backing rings, or bottom mounted using the included grilles and backing rings.

Screw Terminals: The screw terminals will accommodate up to 14-gauge speaker wire." 

And reduced basket diameter by using mounting tabs over a drilled out face.

Though I do wish they offered the drivers in raw form. For those that have no use for the grills and/or mounting hardware. That should reduce the price a bit and also not be wasteful.

By the way, the mids manual is up in the 2.5" Crutchfield page.


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## fcarpio

t3sn4f2 said:


> Though I do wish they offered the drivers in raw form. For those that have no use for the grills and/or mounting hardware. That should reduce the price a bit and also not be wasteful.


This.


----------



## sirbOOm

My neighbor asked me to put a CD player in his Saturn. I come to find out he has Boston Acoustics Pro50/60 speakers installed in there that were being run off of a small 2-channel A/D/S amplifier (silver, couldn't find a model number) that was under a seat. The install was done really, really well.

He had no idea that stuff was in there!

It got signal from the factory output into a regular PAC-style LOC. I put the basic Clarion CD player in there and it was a nice improvement in SQ and he was really happy about it... but how the hell do you not know you have BOSTON speakers?!?! Guess he bought the car with them from an old guy who had a wall of vintage BA and Kenwood box speakers from like the 70's apparently ALL hooked up to a record player and certainly some amps that got concert loud. Wonder who it was...


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## quality_sound

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> No 8s?
> No 6.5s?
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


No 8, but there is a 6.5. Look in the midrange and woofer section. It's weird that they don't show it on its own.


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## tbomb

lizardking said:


> Very nice. However, the performance won't match the price. It seldom does, especially when you can head to parts express or madisound for something in my opinion....Superior.


How are you basing your "opinion"?


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## ErinH

lizardking said:


> Very nice. However, the performance won't match the price. It seldom does, especially when you can head to parts express or madisound for something in my opinion....Superior.


Andy has posted data proving it's a superb brand. Price/value is up the user. People on this site overpay ALL the time for poor performing products compared to those offered by the sites you mentioned. So, you can only objectify the performance. And, based on the data Andy has provided compared to the data of other drivers I've tested, the AF drivers are easily above most of what's available in the car-fi market right now and at the top of the list when it comes to performance.


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## sirbOOm

Nothing beats what I have now! (Because I don't have the money for whatever does...)


----------



## DBlevel

Has anyone tried the midbass yet?


----------



## lizardking

ErinH said:


> Andy has posted data proving it's a superb brand. Price/value is up the user. People on this site overpay ALL the time for poor performing products compared to those offered by the sites you mentioned. So, you can only objectify the performance. And, based on the data Andy has provided compared to the data of other drivers I've tested, the AF drivers are easily above most of what's available in the car-fi market right now and at the top of the list when it comes to performance.


I'm sure the numbers say one thing, but people always hear another. Sound is objective on how the listener perceives what they hear or interpret what they hear. Gotta love the brain! Perception is reality to people and people can be persuaded very very easily. I'm sure his products are nice and in my opinion based on data I see on buying trends he's heading into a dangerous market. It's all about iPads, iPhones and any other gadget that makes you lazy and less incline to have a "real" conversation. Car audio is slowly dying and generations have been changing on what they perceive important. Perhaps a discussion for another day! 

They name "Audiofrog" will be appealing to the Best Buy crowd. For now


----------



## ErinH

I disagree. But neither of us run the company. 

It's crazy how out of hand this is getting with people practically telling andy how to run his business. The guy's knowledge of the business and the technical know-how he has surpassed at least 90% of the members here. Yet, here we are in a thread full of people telling him he's bound for failure and almost seemingly hoping for it just so they can say "told you so". 

I'm out of this thread. This is trending the way of "my amp sounds better than yours" threads and I feel like people are saying the same thing without any merit or evidence to point to. Getting old.


----------



## lizardking

I'm actually happy to see another American business come on line regardless. I just hope the products are made here and they are investing in American employees rather than taking the easy way out. Either way good for them.


----------



## sirbOOm

There's no reason to be saints, either. We're passionate about the sector and out comments are as useful has Andy, who's a big boy, wants to make them. I hope Andy succeeds. In any market, it's car audio where a small brand can thrive. 

Being a branding and communications guy as part of my real job... I would have not gone for Audiofrog. Perhaps providing the story behind the name will help folks accept it and understand it. The Latin name for the frog species? Sure. Andy's last name? Yes. 

I don't think Crutchfield has enough description of the brand. They say designed by a great audio god more or less but... who? What made him great? We may know. Does the average Crutchfield customer in the top 1% of salaries (haha) know? 

That said, I'm baffled as to why Hybrid never hit Crutchfield and instead an obscure 12 volt website (comparatively). That's I think a disadvantage for that brand. But maybe Scott wants control that Crutchfield wouldn't allow. Audiofrog, being at the level or better of Hybrids top end stuff, could get some big competition from Audiofrog with its exposure. 

The design from a looks perspective alone is stunning. Most people will care so it's good he paid attention to that. The sound will no doubt be uncompromising. I'm happy to save up for a set knowing they have the right size mid for me.


----------



## lizardking

I think Audiofrog would work targeted towards a certain demographic. The name leaps out for BestBuy, Circuit City or somewhere else that caters towards a certain market. I can hear that name being pitched by some salesman at Best Buy and people eating it up. Like "leapfrog"


----------



## legend94

lizardking said:


> I'm actually happy to see another American business come on line regardless. I just hope the products are made here and they are investing in American employees rather than taking the easy way out. Either way good for them.


I was looking at the tweeters just now that are 299 per pair which I don't think is too much at all if they are as good as early indication suggests.

They do however say made in China but so are many quality items. They would probably be 399 if they were made here.


----------



## lizardking

Since they are into changing the audio world through innovation. Perhaps the name "Novus" would have been more fitting. Probably not appealing to teenagers or 20 somethings. I like it. "Novus Sonitu" Audio Innovation. "Sound through Change"


----------



## lizardking

legend94 said:


> I was looking at the tweeters just now that are 299 per pair which I don't think is too much at all if they are as good as early indication suggests.
> 
> They do however say made in China but so are many quality items. They would probably be 399 if they were made here.


The real question is this. Would you buy it if in fact it was $399 but made here?


----------



## Darth SQ

quality_sound said:


> No 8, but there is a 6.5. Look in the midrange and woofer section. It's weird that they don't show it on its own.


Thanks for this QS. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## miniSQ

ErinH said:


> I disagree. But neither of us run the company.
> 
> It's crazy how out of hand this is getting with people practically telling andy how to run his business. The guy's knowledge of the business and the technical know-how he has surpassed at least 90% of the members here. Yet, here we are in a thread full of people telling him he's bound for failure and almost seemingly hoping for it just so they can say "told you so".
> 
> I'm out of this thread. This is trending the way of "my amp sounds better than yours" threads and I feel like people are saying the same thing without any merit or evidence to point to. Getting old.


i wouldn't get out so soon...and/or in such a huff.

If i were to pick the two most respected people on this forum it would be you and andy.

I am sure andy has read every post in this thread and has yet to comment. But as i said early he must have some pretty big balls to throw out a $1500 active comp set right out of the gate...so i am sure he can take a little neigh-saying.

The big question is what will the product street for, and what is the distribution channel? Full price via crutchfield i am 100% sure is NOT his plan...as you guys all say he is smarter than that.


----------



## Darth SQ

I recall Andy saying when he picked the name that he didn't want anything that sounded high brow or pretentious and it had to be easy to remember once you heard it and AF does that.
FTR I am not a fan of the name but I am not buying the name, I am buying what Andy's really good at and that's speaker design. 
These will definitely be going in my Honda Fit after the Suburban is done in the next few months.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

miniSQ said:


> i wouldn't get out so soon...and/or in such a huff.
> 
> If i were to pick the two most respected people on this forum it would be you and andy.
> 
> I am sure andy has read every post in this thread and has yet to comment. But as i said early he must have some pretty big balls to throw out a $1500 active comp set right out of the gate...so i am sure he can take a little neigh-saying.
> 
> The big question is what will the product street for, and what is the distribution channel? Full price via crutchfield i am 100% sure is NOT his plan...as you guys all say he is smarter than that.


I briefly chatted with Andy last night.
I don't think this thread is really on Andy's radar right now. He got a full on nightmare FB camping going on from a few that have made him the "poster boy" for made in China car audio; right during speaker roll out....uggh.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## fcarpio

Where are these made? I don't see it anywhere.


----------



## The ///Man

fcarpio said:


> Where are these made? I don't see it anywhere.


Says it on the speaker. Made in China. 

That said I had really hoped they would be made domestically. Unfortunately, very few things are made in America anymore and I'm sure very good things can be made by the Chinese, hell, price almost has no bearing on where things are made, it's all made in China. I imagine they are pretty nice from the people I know who got to hear them early on. I'm sure they will be very competitive with others in their category based on the opinions I've heard. It's always fun to have options.


----------



## REGULARCAB

ErinH said:


> I disagree. But neither of us run the company.
> 
> It's crazy how out of hand this is getting with people practically telling andy how to run his business. The guy's knowledge of the business and the technical know-how he has surpassed at least 90% of the members here. Yet, here we are in a thread full of people telling him he's bound for failure and almost seemingly hoping for it just so they can say "told you so".
> 
> I'm out of this thread. This is trending the way of "my amp sounds better than yours" threads and I feel like people are saying the same thing without any merit or evidence to point to. Getting old.


^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

all day long


----------



## Bayboy

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I briefly chatted with Andy last night.
> I don't think this thread is really on Andy's radar right now. He got a full on nightmare FB camping going on from a few that have made him the "poster boy" for made in China car audio; right during speaker roll out....uggh.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Seriously??? I've been around since the days of "old school" gear up to now and if people don't get that at the end of the day, engineering & QC rule, then there's no help for them. Even on here you will have those that will make a big stink about where a product is made even though the product is a known performer. Just seems that you will never have to stop explaining to people how manufacturing works. I think every piece of gear I use is probably made in China and haven't had a single problem as well as being well worth the coin paid. Their loss I say.


----------



## miniSQ

REGULARCAB said:


> ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^
> 
> all day long


no...not so fast.

No one is telling anyone how to run their business or rooting for it to fail. And no one is waiting to say "i told you so", or any of the other stuff Erin said.

Sorry...but the way i ( a total outsider with ZERO connections to anyone here ) see it is that its totally cool to trash Scott for selling his speakers for what he does...but lets not anyone dare say anything but awesome things about AudioFrog.


----------



## REGULARCAB

miniSQ said:


> no...not so fast.
> 
> No one is telling anyone how to run their business or rooting for it to fail. And no one is waiting to say "i told you so", or any of the other stuff Erin said.
> 
> Sorry...but the way i ( a total outsider with ZERO connections to anyone here ) see it is that its totally cool to trash Scott for selling his speakers for what he does...but lets not anyone dare say anything but awesome things about AudioFrog.


I will agree to disagree on that one. The only caveat is, you are correct I don't believe people are telling him how to run his business. But they have been, in not so many words, saying that he is doing the wrong thing.

Are we all forgetting that when he first started threads about this he was perfectly up front that it was going to be a very high end offering, and almost everyone that commented was very complimentary. 

I do think that it is a LOT of money to spend on speakers. But I also don't think it is out of line for what is being offered compared to its competition

I am the same as you, an "outsider", the only thing I have going for me is spending hours and hours a night reading this forum while sitting at work. But both Scott and now Andy have gotten their fare share of flack for their decisions. I don't personally believe that Erin or anyone else is mindlessly defending Andy (but that is personal opinion). I believe that what is being defended or trashed is the product as they see it. And some people just disagree.


----------



## legend94

lizardking said:


> The real question is this. Would you buy it if in fact it was $399 but made here?


The more I think about it I would pay more if it were made in Denmark or Germany than the US. How sad is that?


----------



## legend94

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I recall Andy saying when he picked the name that he didn't want anything that sounded high brow or pretentious and it had to be easy to remember once you heard it and AF does that.


That tells me he knows how to market! Also love the name and logo


----------



## fcarpio

The ///Man said:


> Says it on the speaker. Made in China.
> 
> That said I had really hoped they would be made domestically.


Yep, I just saw it. Damn.


----------



## Darth SQ

Bayboy said:


> Seriously??? I've been around since the days of "old school" gear up to now and if people don't get that at the end of the day, engineering & QC rule, then there's no help for them. Even on here you will have those that will make a big stink about where a product is made even though the product is a known performer. Just seems that you will never have to stop explaining to people how manufacturing works. I think every piece of gear I use is probably made in China and haven't had a single problem as well as being well worth the coin paid. Their loss I say.


Well said.
BTW, I just chatted with Andy a few minutes ago and he is absolutely elated at initial sales. Some of the first delivery is already sold out and dealers are signing on everyday at double digit rates. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## lizardking

legend94 said:


> The more I think about it I would pay more if it were made in Denmark or Germany than the US. How sad is that?


Germans know how to do it. I love German Engineering!!!! Over build...Over build. Buy hey, my family is German. lol


----------



## lizardking

In today's economy, people are much more frugal today. A few years ago, people on here would wet their pants for Rainbow, Brax and the likes. BTW, I've owned most, although very well made, not worth the price. I would put the Scan Illuminators and discovery along with a few other DIY drivers against any of those so called High End speakers that cost 3 times as much. Same goes for amps. 

Anyway, I like the idea of the Company and I believe they will probably do okay. Not many of us 80's and 90's car audio guys around and after that.....the industry will die as we know it today and back then. OEM is where the money is. I would like to see Andy look at hooking up with an OEM to offer up something respectable. Some of these systems I hear now in these cars are freaking amazing compared to years ago. Accurate, centered, height, depth....and so on. 

American OEMs would be a great start. As for those thinking that manufacturing in China is no big deal. It is, and we need to bring jobs back to America. We can do it, just as good if not better with controlled environments and good pay. People want and will buy American. Americans can do anything, we've proven that time and time again throughout our history. Remember the greatest generation? Our Grandparents? They did it! Not caring, well that is part of the problem. I feel that I owe it to my Country and the Men and Women that die for my Country. 

Not bashing Andy and I love the fact that he's building a brand. I certainly don't know what it costs to build projects in China. However, what I've seen the profit margin is huge for those that are doing it and reselling in America. Why not lower the profit margin and build in house with American workers that they could provide health insurance along with other benefits? At the end of the day, a person would feel much prouder knowing that his/her Company is American Made!


----------



## Victor_inox

Lover profit margin? this is Heresy! American workers? demanding and high maintenance.


----------



## lizardking

Victor_inox said:


> Lover profit margin? this is Heresy! American workers? demanding and high maintenance.



No doubt. Who are we to want clean bathrooms, no child labor and paint free of lead, regulated hours, benefits for our family. Totally unreasonable. Wait...we can have the Chinese do it, with no regulation that Americans can really see. We can tell them all we want and even show photos and videos. Profits will be huge and investors will be happy and fat.


----------



## Victor_inox

Investors have to make money, no one gonna do it on pure enthusiasm.
In highly saturated car audio market making any appreciable profit is essential to stay afloat. I respect any company who put made in China on their product instead of Engineered in Germany made in PRC. although "designed in california" just as cheesy.


----------



## lizardking

CDT Audio? That sounds like something I read on their sit.


----------



## Victor_inox

lizardking said:


> CDT Audio? That sounds like something I read on their sit.


Maybe, maybe not, it seems like a common trend.


----------



## diy.phil

That Crutchfield flyer said Crutchfield: Car Stereo, Speakers, Home Theater, Pro Audio, LED TV for more Audiofrog info.
Did you guys see that AF 12" sub that said 95 dB sensitivity?? That's like a wow! Anyways it looks like good stuff - cast aluminum, etc and they named some reasonable sized sealed or ported boxes too.


----------



## Jesus Christ

diy.phil said:


> .
> Did you guys see that AF 12" sub that said 95 dB sensitivity??


That's most likely at 2.83v, not 1 watt. 1 watt sensitivity is probably closer to 86db.


----------



## SkizeR

Jesus Christ said:


> That's most likely at 2.83v, not 1 watt. 1 watt sensitivity is probably closer to 86db.


from what i remember 1 watt is only usually 2db lower than 2.83 volts...


----------



## Hoptologist

diy.phil said:


> That Crutchfield flyer said Crutchfield: Car Stereo, Speakers, Home Theater, Pro Audio, LED TV for more Audiofrog info.
> Did you guys see that AF 12" sub that said 95 dB sensitivity?? That's like a wow! Anyways it looks like good stuff - cast aluminum, etc and they named some reasonable sized sealed or ported boxes too.


Sweet, definitely considering this sub for my next system change in a ported enclosure. Excited to receive other details on the sub- Fs, xmax, etc.


----------



## mikey7182

Jesus Christ said:


> That's most likely at 2.83v, not 1 watt. 1 watt sensitivity is probably closer to 86db.


2.83V gives a 2-3db gain vs 1w. Its 1w/1m sensitivity is likely closer to 92-93db, assuming this is the case. The only way a 9db swing would occur is if the higher rating included cabin or vented enclosure gain.


----------



## fcarpio

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know where that HAT speakers are made? China as well?


----------



## Bayboy

I really don't get the frustration or sour taste. We are a small group and that, many admit. There's a plethora of gear that many can not afford, but there's also a multitude that most can and fits well within the basis of this site. Or did many forget what Diyma started from or was all about? Those sources have not dwindled down to limited selections and the introduction of various lesser priced DSP units have made things a bit easier than say 10 years ago. So what if a new car audio brand comes out with upper tier drivers? It really shouldn't affect or even concern most of us to the point these views unless one has become consumed with certain brand names as well as highly relating SQ to paying certain prices. It's really counterproductive IMO.

P.E., Madisound, Zalytron, etc... are still offering plenty of drivers that do well and cost less. Or are we getting away from that and becoming what other forums have?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

fcarpio said:


> Just out of curiosity, does anyone know where that HAT speakers are made? China as well?


Yep. And no where near the performance of these. My L6SE's are the ones that were klippeled.


----------



## miniSQ

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Yep. And no where near the performance of these. My L6SE's are the ones that were klippeled.


Cool, so you have heard the audiofrog mids then? And they blow the HAT speakers away sonically?


----------



## T3mpest

mikey7182 said:


> 2.83V gives a 2-3db gain vs 1w. Its 1w/1m sensitivity is likely closer to 92-93db, assuming this is the case. The only way a 9db swing would occur is if the higher rating included cabin or vented enclosure gain.


Sometimes they rate the speaker at 2 or even 1 ohm, giving you a 6-9db advantage. Regardless subwoofers aren't magic and hoffmans iron law wins in bass "effeciency". If you want 96db/1w/1m in the bass region out of a single driver, better be ready to give up a large amount of space.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

miniSQ said:


> Cool, so you have heard the audiofrog mids then? And they blow the HAT speakers away sonically?


No, but I've seen klippel reports of both. The hat driver is around the same price as the audio frog midbass, and gives up 5.8mm of linear excursion right away. Not a good sign for a midbass the company brags as being the best 7" inch car audio midbass in the world. The the superior measurements for the audio frog 6" don't stop there. Yes the hat driver has more cone area, but not enough to make up for its poor linear excursion, especially when so much cone area is wasted for the mounting ring on the basket. 

Have I heard them, no. But the measurements are a pretty accurate picture of what each driver will sound like.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Actually, I was just reminded that with the L6SE's phase plugs, they may not have any more cone area than the af 6's.


----------



## Jesus Christ

T3mpest said:


> Sometimes they rate the speaker at 2 or even 1 ohm, giving you a 6-9db advantage.


Exactly, the 95 db rating is for the d2 model most likely with the coils in parallel. 2.83v at 1 ohm is 8 watts.


----------



## Hanatsu

fcarpio said:


> I honestly believe that Audio Frog is pricing itself out of the market


I think prices are perfectly reasonable. With the prices I'm used to, they are not even expensive. You get what you pay for, high quality speakers are a really worthwhile investment.


----------



## The ///Man

Hanatsu said:


> I think prices are perfectly reasonable. With the prices I'm used to, they are not even expensive. You get what you pay for, high quality speakers are a really worthwhile investment.


They were less than I expected judging by Crutchfield pricing.


----------



## jpeezy

Wow 5 pages, guess i wasn't the only one excited about audio frog. I'm so glad for Andy and his crew, I just remember back in the day when installers (the ones who were neck deep really into audio, would get a early chance to play with new product).would get little sneak previews of product. I only hope that i get a chance to hear them one day soon.


----------



## Hanatsu

Jesus Christ said:


> Exactly, the 95 db rating is for the d2 model most likely with the coils in parallel. 2.83v at 1 ohm is 8 watts.


Indeed, a 2,83V spec is completely worthless without knowing the impedance load it was rated at. High sensitivity is no free lunch as others have mentioned, either no low end or huge enclosure, pick your poison.

You don't need to listen to speakers before buying them, I never do. Acoustic measurements of drivers combined with a klippel test will describe the full performance a speaker. Measure good = sound good in my experience. Like Erin said, these speakers looks like top performance units to me.


----------



## tbomb

Maybe its just me, but that sub looks an awful lot like a Power series with a coated paper cone vs raw like JBL does, along with infinity's impedance switch? Of course, its different enough but still. And yes, I know that there are plenty of speakers that look alike. This isnt to be a knock. I wish Andy the best. Who knows, maybe he was responsible for those things at Harmon and made some improvements.


----------



## jpeezy

having things made in china really isn't that bad, its when the person responsible for QC on said product fails, then inferior product slips through the filter. As long as they are QC ing the crap out of the parts, being made in china shouldn't matter. I have been involved in car audio for almost 30 years professionally, and have had the pleasure of dealing with a lot of people who manufacture car audio parts and otherwise, and they have always said that R&D, QC, Brand Image have to be well controlled for a company to succeed, and have longevity within the industry. I've recently had the pleasure of working with Wayde Alfarrone (Mass Engineering Founder), he is helping one of our other companies with some manufacturing projects. He gave me some interesting insight recently on a quality pro sound brand (sounds like "fatal dough", ) that used a consulting engineer to help them design their recent lines of speakers. The engineer is apparently a guru when it comes to mechanical designs in solid works.This designer has been involved in many things besides audio, but his specialty is audio. The reason Wayde used him for some of his projects at Mass was so that he could focus on the R&D, and QC of the product. It takes some many resources just to create a product, but to manufacture in large volumes so that it is profitable enough to keep pumping out high end product you sometimes need to be more efficient in obtaining those resources. tha tis where chinese manufacture comes into play, as long as they QC, it should be a non- issue.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Awesome speakers are great, but what I'm really excited for and hoping will come out sooner than later is a multi-channel processor. One that sounds great and doesn't fry my speakers.


----------



## cajunner

t3sn4f2 said:


> Awesome speakers are great, but what I'm really excited for and hoping will come out sooner than later is a multi-channel processor. One that sounds great and doesn't fry my speakers.


along that line of thinking, if we suppose that Andy had loads of input into the design and execution of the MS-8 and the MS-2, and his rolling test bed of convolver plug-in VST or whatever, 22 channels of love, is any indication he is probably going to take whatever was missing from the MS-8 and fix it.

considering that most people who drop 800 on a processor are ready to pony up for outboard amplification, the powered part of MS-8 may be dropped, or who knows, maybe beefed up with Hypex modules...

that would be a kick, if they could do those motorbike amps in place of the big amp chip and it would take up maybe another 1.2" in length or width, a big [email protected] 4 ohms, 8 channels... and [email protected] 2 ohms, just for kicks..

who knows though. 


I don't, but I would imagine that in the race to produce competition for the big systems that are OEM nowadays in the 'cool' cars, (read: blingy bling) that a processor needs that 8 channels and maybe more...

a scale-able product, maybe?

that would be cool, to me.

a black box that you program with your smart phone's Android OS, so you don't need the laptop or expensive external controller do-hickey....


and I guess I am avoiding commenting on things like pricing, or company name guessing, or why Crutchfield gets to distribute them first, and not after the brand has been around for a good while and "cheaps out" by retailing through a discount online retailer.


None of that matters, except to say that being able to use Crutchfield's excellent customer service, instead of a hit-miss system of dealers who one day rub you the right way and the next try to rip your dick off, is going to be an easier work day for Andy and his posse of audio raconteurs, since customer service is a niche, and Crutchfield trains their reps to deal.


I like it more and more, go straight to Crutchfield, and eliminate most of the "slop" of gray market goods slipping past the back doors of good shops who have unscrupulous people signing inventory forms...

seems like a great way to control customer returns, and get a good handle on supply routes so you can choke them off if they start showing up on ebay at 40% off MAP...


----------



## sirbOOm

If the man makes a *10-channel* processor without internal amplification and the usual minimum capabilities using good bits that are more likely to NOT add noise than to add it (sometimes it's a wash with these processors), than he has my money. I want rear speakers. I'm sorry, but I want time aligned rear speakers and I want them turn off/on-able (mute checkbox in the software is fine, nothing fancy needed). I'd also like that I can have presets so that one preset is high-level in, another preset is low-level in (i.e., if I am running both high-level in from a stock head unit and low level in from a competition deck). He'd also making some money pushing forward OPTICAL or some other form of SINGLE CABLE that we can run back for up to, say, 10-channels vs. these antiquated RCAs.

Since Andy religiously reads what I have to say and thinks about it in the shower mid-loofa, I'm sure all of the above will be coming out momentarily so... don't worry.


----------



## t3sn4f2

cajunner said:


> a black box that you program with your smart phone's Android OS, so you don't need the laptop or expensive external controller do-hickey....


With the effort that was put into these speakers in order to make them as plug and play as possible, I think they'll come out with another external display/remote control interface. Which I personally like, it always works and works for everyone the first time. 

The only thing I would do differently is have a more capable remote. Something solid with a good size so that you can have many functions at a button's press. Vol/tone/fad/presets/etc. My Direct TV remote has 50+ individual buttons and I/we can activate them without looking within a sec of wanting to. No deep menu surfing to lower the bass a little or fad a bit. Put everything I'd ever want to control day to day within the blind press of a button.

Edit: Oh and no digital domain master volume control that leave the outputs open full tilt at all times. Choke it off in the analog realm as a back up speaker protection in case of something MS-8 like happens. That also would eliminate zipper noise.


----------



## fcarpio

Hanatsu said:


> I think prices are perfectly reasonable. With the prices I'm used to, they are not even expensive. You get what you pay for, high quality speakers are a really worthwhile investment.


I am just going by Crutchfield's pricing. But then, Crutchfield wants $650 for the SWR-T12's that I can get pretty much anywhere for under $300. Again, I was only judging their crossovers. Now there is so much fuzz about these speakers that I am tempted to try them without the crossovers and after the price comes down.


----------



## Victor_inox

I just love how everyone excited about customer support.
I for one don`t need damn CS. customer support for what? 
It`s nice to know that anything can be returned back for whatever reason, so is stuff bought anywhere else. big deal
KNowing that CF mark up their stuff over the top and actual developer/manufacturer gets less than half of selling price throwing me off.


----------



## Beckerson1

cajunner said:


> along that line of thinking, if we suppose that Andy had loads of input into the design and execution of the MS-8 and the MS-2, and his rolling test bed of convolver plug-in VST or whatever, 22 channels of love, is any indication he is probably going to take whatever was missing from the MS-8 and fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Can't agree more on this statement. I was thinking the very same thing. Keep the goods of the MS8, if not make it more advance and bring in a much more advance tuning option into it. My quarrel with the MS8 was there wasn't enough advance tuning options after initial tuning. IMO you have the initial tuning which should get you close and then you should be able to tweek everything afterwards. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> considering that most people who drop 800 on a processor are ready to pony up for outboard amplification, the powered part of MS-8 may be dropped, or who knows, maybe beefed up with Hypex modules...
> 
> that would be a kick, if they could do those motorbike amps in place of the big amp chip and it would take up maybe another 1.2" in length or width, a big [email protected] 4 ohms, 8 channels... and [email protected] 2 ohms, just for kicks..
> 
> who knows though.
> 
> 
> I don't, but I would imagine that in the race to produce competition for the big systems that are OEM nowadays in the 'cool' cars, (read: blingy bling) that a processor needs that 8 channels and maybe more...
> 
> a scale-able product, maybe?
> 
> that would be cool, to me.
> 
> a black box that you program with your smart phone's Android OS, so you don't need the laptop or expensive external controller do-hickey....
> 
> 
> *Agree'd. I hate having to lug my computer in the car just to tune some on the eq. It would be much easier to have a controller or use your phone to make these on the fly adjustments *
> 
> 
> and I guess I am avoiding commenting on things like pricing, or company name guessing, or why Crutchfield gets to distribute them first, and not after the brand has been around for a good while and "cheaps out" by retailing through a discount online retailer.
> 
> 
> None of that matters, except to say that being able to use Crutchfield's excellent customer service, instead of a hit-miss system of dealers who one day rub you the right way and the next try to rip your dick off, is going to be an easier work day for Andy and his posse of audio raconteurs, since customer service is a niche, and Crutchfield trains their reps to deal.
> 
> 
> I like it more and more, go straight to Crutchfield, and eliminate most of the "slop" of gray market goods slipping past the back doors of good shops who have unscrupulous people signing inventory forms...
> 
> seems like a great way to control customer returns, and get a good handle on supply routes so you can choke them off if they start showing up on ebay at 40% off MAP...



You and I are on the same page. I can't wait to see what transpires from this


----------



## Darth SQ

"mid loofa"....thanks for the visual. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Knowing what little I do of Andy, I think his plans for dsp is going to be way outside the stand alone MS-8.
Someone on FB asked me if I thought the amps or the dsp would come out first, my answer was, "yes". 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## diy.phil

ok everybody please start saving up for that DSP. It's going to require 2 signatures please ask the boss (spouse) for approval now. j/k


----------



## Angrywhopper

I agree with what Siriboom and MiniSQ said in this thread.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There's a few simple facts. Pricing on these drivers is in line with their performance. They perform as well as the top of the line scanspeak products, and pricing is in line with that. In fact, as Erin mentioned, the af products motors perform as well as the top of the line scans, with better frequency response.


----------



## sirbOOm

Angrywhopper said:


> I agree with what Siriboom and MiniSQ said in this thread.


Holy crap... someone agrees with me. Time to buy a lottery ticket. 

Nope, nevermind... he was talking about *SIRI*boom - the iPhone version of me. Hmmph....


----------



## rton20s

Wow... what a cluster this thread became in such a very short time. 

In terms of AF using CF for online distribution, Andy already commented on this in his other thread when I brought it up last week. Not knowing Andy, I would think he might just bypass this thread entirely given he has already provided a response there. 

Without rehashing a bunch of the debate earlier in this thread, I do find it interesting all of the business and marketing experts, or perhaps soothsayers that we have active here on DIYMA. 

For now, I'll just sit back and wait to see if the audio performance stacks up to the measured performance and pricing. The build quality certainly does, from the few minutes I had of hands on.


----------



## Bayboy

Focal, HAT, and a few others... aren't they up in that price range? Still have many that swear by them and will buy them at the drop of a hat. I can't afford any of them.... well I can, but I won't. To those that can and will.... enjoy!


----------



## cajunner

rton20s said:


> Wow... what a cluster this thread became in such a very short time.
> 
> In terms of AF using CF for online distribution, Andy already commented on this in his other thread when I brought it up last week. Not knowing Andy, I would think he might just bypass this thread entirely given he has already provided a response there.
> 
> Without rehashing a bunch of the debate earlier in this thread,* I do find it interesting all of the business and marketing experts, or perhaps soothsayers that we have active here on DIYMA. *
> 
> For now, I'll just sit back and wait to see if the audio performance stacks up to the measured performance and pricing. The build quality certainly does, from the few minutes I had of hands on.


what else is a forum good for, after regular bumps of "which subwoofer" and "why is my **** brown?"

a new company comes into being, I think we've been fairly civil in our "predictive input" and I would expect Andy to understand, and even appreciate the extra face time his products are getting by way of interest by the hard core in this hobby.

the problem with this thread is not the lack of information coming forthwith, by Wehmeyer et. al., but the lack of speculation on new products that are probably already in production and not subject to any revisions at this time.


Speculation is the poor man's hedge against not being relevant regarding these new bling bling, when everyone must have an iPhone because it's the in thing, here in audio land the new thing is now AF and there will be subconscious and conscious reminders, little stabs of envy and jealousy masquerading as interest because of the pricing schedule, but that's the beauty of having something that requires "budgeting" and "saving for" in the pipeline.

I like talking about new stuff, and AF is the new stuff.

let's not forget that this message board is a socially structured entity and as much as people want to protect Andy from critical concerns, (which is... commendable?) the reality is we're all punchbowl flotsam anyway, and drunk on the stream of new blingy bling floating by...


----------



## REGULARCAB

cajunner said:


> the reality is we're all punchbowl flotsam anyway, and drunk on the stream of new blingy bling floating by...


New sig quote  :laugh:


----------



## sirbOOm

Lectures lecturer lectures for providing good opinions.


----------



## rton20s

cajunner said:


> the problem with this thread is not the lack of information coming forthwith, by Wehmeyer et. al., but the lack of speculation on new products that are probably already in production and not subject to any revisions at this time.


What is there to speculate that Andy hasn't already revealed in not so many words? Or maybe he (and others) already have? He has additional lower tier speaker lines on the way. Speculate on time frame, if you must, but they are coming. 

What is really left to speculate on, if that is what we are doing, is the possible amplifier and DSP lineup in the works. There has already been stated intention, but I doubt very many know the details regarding specifications and timeline. And hey, this is another great avenue to explore where we can compare them to everyone's second favorite punching bag, Hybrid Audio Technologies! Scott has been stating for a couple years now his desire to release amplifiers as well. So... who will get to market first? And who will do it better? 

Just doing my part...


----------



## Hoptologist

Woohoo! Product pages are up on the website AUDIOFROG » designed in California for audiophiles everywhere


----------



## Darth SQ

cajunner said:


> what else is a forum good for, after regular bumps of "which subwoofer" and "*why is my **** brown?"*
> 
> a new company comes into being, I think we've been fairly civil in our "predictive input" and I would expect Andy to understand, and even appreciate the extra face time his products are getting by way of interest by the hard core in this hobby.
> 
> the problem with this thread is not the lack of information coming forthwith, by Wehmeyer et. al., but the lack of speculation on new products that are probably already in production and not subject to any revisions at this time.
> 
> 
> Speculation is the poor man's hedge against not being relevant regarding these new bling bling, when everyone must have an iPhone because it's the in thing, here in audio land the new thing is now AF and there will be subconscious and conscious reminders, little stabs of envy and jealousy masquerading as interest because of the pricing schedule, but that's the beauty of having something that requires "budgeting" and "saving for" in the pipeline.
> 
> I like talking about new stuff, and AF is the new stuff.
> 
> let's not forget that this message board is a socially structured entity and as much as people want to protect Andy from critical concerns, (which is... commendable?) the reality is we're all punchbowl flotsam anyway, and drunk on the stream of new blingy bling floating by...


^^^
Honestly why is that?
If you mix random colors of paint you always get brown, but if you do it with light instead of paint you get white? :shrug:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Hoptologist

Looks like they might still be fine tuning the pages... the Sd on the gb12d2 reads 346.3 cm2, which is the Sd of the 10"... the xmax doesn't match either on both 12" versions. Looks like their still rough drafting it, whoever is doing the website has the GB10D2 specs copied on the GB12D2 page, they said they would post on Facebook when the final version of the site is up and running so no worries.


----------



## quality_sound

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Thanks for this QS.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR



No problem. I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about trying these.


----------



## cajunner

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ^^^
> Honestly why is that?
> If you mix random colors of paint you always get brown, but if you do it with light instead of paint you get white? :shrug:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Oxygen.

**** turns darker brown once the air hits it, while it's in your digestive tract it's a nice opaque, whitish mix of acids and alkali, surrounded by methane gases.

so if we were trying to metaphor this, the stuff Andy has in his inventory, on the slow boat or still being boxed up in Guangzhou's Easy Audiophile Warehouse, is still basically untarnished by the grubby hands of the introspective, demanding audiophile cursed, buying public, AKA the elite.

once it arrives we put the oxygen on it, and the time for novelty and excitement soon passes into the critical period of customer return hell and disruptive sorts trying to scam or just blame AF on user error...


then the green frog is brown, and a brown frog is usually an indicator that some bleeding has occurred, besides the normal dessicant action of frogs in the nose...

a green frog represents a healthy ecosystem, a healthy nasal tract, a healthy organism, filtering against the bad in life, but a brown frog is not good...


let's keep the frog green, right...


----------



## t3sn4f2

cajunner said:


> Oxygen.
> 
> **** turns darker brown once the air hits it, while it's in your digestive tract it's a nice opaque, whitish mix of acids and alkali, surrounded by methane gases.
> 
> so if we were trying to metaphor this, the stuff Andy has in his inventory, on the slow boat or still being boxed up in Guangzhou's Easy Audiophile Warehouse, is still basically untarnished by the grubby hands of the introspective, demanding audiophile cursed, buying public, AKA the elite.
> 
> once it arrives we put the oxygen on it, and the time for novelty and excitement soon passes into the critical period of customer return hell and disruptive sorts trying to scam or just blame AF on user error...
> 
> 
> then the green frog is brown, and a brown frog is usually an indicator that some bleeding has occurred, besides the normal dessicant action of frogs in the nose...
> 
> a green frog represents a healthy ecosystem, a healthy nasal tract, a healthy organism, filtering against the bad in life, but a brown frog is not good...
> 
> 
> let's keep the frog green, right...


It's actually bile that turns it brown. 


Pale or Clay-Colored Stools: Causes & Diagnosis


----------



## Bayboy

I'm waiting on the lower tier stuff. May still be a tad high, but at least you know where the owner is coming from. No different than many using the Imagine series. Not cheap, but not pricey either. I'd say that is probably the one that will garner more attention.


----------



## t3sn4f2

So why did they name the company Audio Frog? Here's my guess. 

Wiki "frog" and in one of the subsections there's this.....

"Frogs feature prominently in folklore, fairy tales, and popular culture. They tend to be portrayed as *benign*, ugly, and clumsy, but with *hidden talents*. Examples include Michigan J. Frog, "The Frog Prince", and Kermit the Frog. The Warner Brothers cartoon One Froggy Evening features Michigan J. Frog, that will only dance and sing for the demolition worker who opens his time capsule, but will not perform in public.[195] "The Frog Prince" is a fairy tale about a frog that turns into a handsome prince after he has rescued a princess's golden ball and she has taken him into her palace.[196] Kermit the Frog is a conscientious and disciplined character from The Muppet Show and Sesame Street; while openly friendly and greatly talented, *he is often portrayed as cringing at the fanciful behavior of more flamboyant characters.*[197]"


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## lizardking

Pure marketing! It clicks with gadget crowd. The iPhone, iPad and the likes.


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## cajunner

t3sn4f2 said:


> It's actually bile that turns it brown.
> 
> 
> Pale or Clay-Colored Stools: Causes & Diagnosis


bwhahahahha...


I knew that, but oxidation turns a lot of things darker or brown, like copper say...

oh well. 

back to the regularly scheduled program, I am pretty sure **** is getting old...


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## lizardking

I often wonder why I take a **** rather than leave a ****.:surprised:


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## Darth SQ

Sorry I asked. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Angrywhopper

sirbOOm said:


> Holy crap... someone agrees with me. Time to buy a lottery ticket.
> 
> Nope, nevermind... he was talking about *SIRI*boom - the iPhone version of me. Hmmph....


The only thing I use Siri for is to remind me of stuff I need to do.

siribOOm in this thread made alot of sense.


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## sirbOOm

lizardking said:


> I often wonder why I take a **** rather than leave a ****.:surprised:


I often wonder why I give a ****. 

Had to.


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## sirbOOm

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ^^^
> Honestly why is that?
> If you mix random colors of paint you always get brown, but if you do it with light instead of paint you get white? :shrug:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


This was a favorite subject in college. The brown you see is the reflection of colors NOT absorbed by you having combined like a 2-year-old all of your paint colors together prior to finger painting it on your kid-size canvas. 

Pure black is the absence of reflected light, thus the absence of color - nothing to see and, theoretically, very surreal and dangerous for the average human to visually observe because it is a sensation human beings are not evolutionary equipped comprehend and psychologically manage without being at least taken aback of not pushed to insanity... crazy theory stuff.

That is to say, pure black will absorb 100% of light waves that hit it vs. reflect them. Nothing on earth equates to this, though scientists have recently made the blackest material known to man on earth. Black holes are black because their gravity pulls back even rays of light (radiation). A zebra's stripes are actually brown. Your poopies are brown too, unless you ate too much candy.

A 100% combination of all colors would equate white light - better referred to as "all colored" light. The term white, just like black, is really only used for convenience as a start and finish for all colors, book ends. White light is the reflection of all color frequencies which is perceived by us as both "more bright than less than 100% combination of all colors for a given intensity of radiation" and, well, the "color" white. I was told once pure 100% all-color light it's actually "clear" but I never quite understood that. Could be wrong.

Your hot green Fiat 500 looks green because that color is the only colors reflecting off of it and thus that's what your cyborg eyes provide to your brain to translate into a color. It is not impossible that a brain in wired wrong and sees green as orange and blue as pink - or is that being wired right? Spooky.... 

Oh, and your bright green Fiat looks gray at night because very little light is reflecting off of it (plus your color photoreceptors are not effective at night). So instead your sight is the comparison of shapes of differing intensities of gray..


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## Darth SQ

quality_sound said:


> No problem. I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about trying these.


Me too.
In my Fit.
When the Suburban's done.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Darth SQ

sirbOOm said:


> This was a favorite subject in college. The brown you see is the reflection of colors NOT absorbed by you having combined like a 2-year-old all of your paint colors together prior to finger painting it on your kid-size canvas.
> 
> Pure black is the absence of reflected light, thus the absence of color - nothing to see and, theoretically, very surreal and dangerous for the average human to visually observe because it is a sensation human beings are not evolutionary equipped comprehend and psychologically manage without being at least taken aback of not pushed to insanity... crazy theory stuff.
> 
> That is to say, pure black will absorb 100% of light waves that hit it vs. reflect them. Nothing on earth equates to this, though scientists have recently made the blackest material known to man on earth. Black holes are black because their gravity pulls back even rays of light (radiation). A zebra's stripes are actually brown. Your poopies are brown too, unless you ate too much candy.
> 
> A 100% combination of all colors would equate white light - better referred to as "all colored" light. The term white, just like black, is really only used for convenience as a start and finish for all colors, book ends. White light is the reflection of all color frequencies which is perceived by us as both "more bright than less than 100% combination of all colors for a given intensity of radiation" and, well, the "color" white. I was told once pure 100% all-color light it's actually "clear" but I never quite understood that. Could be wrong.
> 
> Your hot green Fiat 500 looks green because that color is the only colors reflecting off of it and thus that's what your cyborg eyes provide to your brain to translate into a color. It is not impossible that a brain in wired wrong and sees green as orange and blue as pink - or is that being wired right? Spooky....
> 
> Oh, and your bright green Fiat looks gray at night because very little light is reflecting off of it (plus your color photoreceptors are not effective at night). So instead your sight is the comparison of shapes of differing intensities of gray..


So that frog on the dust cover is green cuz I didn't eat candy?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Velozity

So with all that's being said on and *way* off topic in this thread, has anybody actually placed an order for any of the products?


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## Angrywhopper

Velozity said:


> So with all that's being said on and *way* off topic in this thread, has anybody actually placed an order for any of the products?


Didn't you notice how many people said they wouldn't be buying them because lack of funds in this thread. Everyone's an online keyboard supporter but when it comes down to plopping down their real cash (not internet moneyz) that's a different story. Nothing new here .


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## Darth SQ

Angrywhopper said:


> Didn't you notice how many people said they wouldn't be buying them because lack of funds in this thread. Everyone's an online keyboard supporter but when it comes down to plopping down their real cash (not internet moneyz) that's a different story. Nothing new here .


I'm in a for a 2 1" tweets, 2 4" mids, 2 6" midbase, and 1 12" sub come the first of the year however, it will not be through Crutchfield. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Angrywhopper

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I'm in a for a 2 1" tweets, 2 4" mids, 2 6" midbase, and 1 12" sub come the first of the year however, it will not be through Crutchfield.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Awesome! I can't wait to hear your feedback on em! I'm in NorCal maybe if you're ever in the area I can check it out in your car .


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## Darth SQ

Angrywhopper said:


> Awesome! I can't wait to hear your feedback on em! I'm in NorCal maybe if you're ever in the area I can check it out in your car .


I should be building it during next spring/summer and I do attend the NorCal MECA shows.
The good news is that Bing of SIS (Milpitas, CA.) already has AF product and likely has installed some.
You should give he and Joey a call for an audition.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## fcarpio

cajunner said:


> bwhahahahha...
> 
> 
> I knew that, but oxidation turns a lot of things darker or brown, like copper say...
> 
> oh well.
> 
> back to the regularly scheduled program, I am pretty sure **** is getting old...


Um, copper turns green. Yeah, I have checked out a while ago, just reading now for the most part.


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## cajunner

fcarpio said:


> Um, copper turns green. Yeah, I have checked out a while ago, just reading now for the most part.


ever cook with copper?

the color is definitely brown, from the fresh pink of a just de-oxidized piece.

and yes, it does turn green too. It actually turns a lot of different colors with heat treating, it's a really cool metal.

I have a piece of solid copper turning green on me, right there on the table. 

And I have some pots, like the Revere Ware copper bottoms, that are not green at all but dark brown.

I'm not sure what causes the brown, or the green, but I think high humidity helps make the green and the brown comes from just air.

now, I'm glad this isn't Andy's information dissemination thread. I would feel bad if I turned it to **** and all...


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## Hanatsu

No copper oxides are brown. They are red or black. Coppercarbonate and the hydroxide is blueish-green, the cloride as well. That is how you normally see copper plated roofs etc. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## 14642

Wow. I'm late to the party. By the time I found this thread, it had already devolved into preposterous musings about the origin of the name.

I'm not sure I have anything to add to this, other than to say thanks for the compliments and the well-wishes to those of you who've offered them.


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## Hanatsu

I like the name and the logo for what it's worth 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


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## t3sn4f2

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Wow. I'm late to the party. By the time I found this thread, it had already devolved into *preposterous* musings about the origin of the name.
> 
> I'm not sure I have anything to add to this, other than to say thanks for the compliments and the well-wishes to those of you who've offered them.


Hmmm and here I thought I was paying you a compliment with "my guess" of the origins of your company name. Oh well.

"Kermit the Frog is a *conscientious and disciplined character *from The Muppet Show and Sesame Street; *while openly friendly and greatly talented*, he is often portrayed as *cringing at the fanciful behavior of more flamboyant characters (ie your online stance toward the audiophoolery of other flash over quality products and companies)*."


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## 14642

Hanatsu said:


> I like the name and the logo for what it's worth
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


So do many others. Of course, some don't. What's for sure, though, is that no one forgets it.


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## subwoofery

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So do many others. Of course, some don't. What's for sure, though, is that no one forgets it.


You should create a sticker that has your logo on it with something like: 
"I've been frogged" 

Sticker that owners can proudly install on their car and no thieves would understand the meaning - only connoisseur  

Kelvin


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## Victor_inox

subwoofery said:


> You should create a sticker that has your logo on it with something like:
> "I've been frogged"
> 
> Sticker that owners can proudly install on their car and no thieves would understand the meaning - only connoisseur
> 
> Kelvin


I like that idea.


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## Huckleberry Sound

Looks lime Simplicity In Sound is putting in some work!!!


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## Victor_inox

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Looks lime Simplicity In Sound is putting in some work!!!


Love it!


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## Huckleberry Sound

I beleive there is enough of this business out there for everyone. What is for audiofrog will be regardless if anyone likes it or not or the path they are taking.

I pray much success over them!!!


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## TheHulk9er

Somebody has probably already pointed this out, but, the Audiofrog web site is now up with all the TS parameters, measurements, etc..

http://www.audiofrogusa.com/#home

Has anyone taken a look at these or analyzed them? Based on my limited knowledge they look real good.

We need someone with a technical background to take a look at these and post some thoughts.

Of course what we really need is a set of the drivers for testing.


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## Darth SQ

Search this forum for other Audio Frog threads and you will have your answer. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## captainscarlett

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So do many others. Of course, some don't. What's for sure, though, is that no one forgets it.





> _"I took a few Maurice Sedwell suits just in case. My PA couldn't get me the room I desired at Claridges, so I had to make do with The Connaught. I decided on the Maserati in the end, Vuitton is packed, and relaxed and listened to my favourite compilation on the 'Audiofrog' speaker system!"_


Hmmm !!!!

Even in aftermarket rip off sound systems, Bowers & Wilkins, Burmester, Linn, Meridian, Naim, Dynaudio, Mark Levinson (who doesn't own Mark Levinson), Bang & Olufsen, .... Audiofrog sounds like a bluetooth iPod speaker my 6 year old niece would use. 


Contrary to that, I wish you success and more Andy, and I hope good days are ahead for your brand. In truth _Me likey_, and if Crutchfield does ship to the UK that would be great, as apart from Genesis Amplifiers, the UK are in desperate need of good SQ brands. 

Now I'm going to go back to page 3 of the thread, but I just wanted to add a '_Good luck_' note.



Velozity said:


> You know, this thread has me thinking. When was the last time we saw an American car audio company being born?


In the light of subwoofer brands, and Chinese Build-house products with 'Made In American' splattered all over the marketing blurb, new companies seem to be popping up every weekend.

In the light of Pioneer and Dynaudio selling up for whatever reported reason, small brands seem to come and go and change hands with annoying regularity. Back in the 80's who'd of thought the likes of Nakamichi would in effect, go down the drain? TC Sounds seems to have disappeared once again, and many seem to at best, struggle.

On the other side of the coin, *Scott* seems to be doing quite well in the high-end, high-cost section of the market, Why can't Andy do the same!?



sirbOOm said:


> Being a branding and communications guy as part of my real job... I would have not gone for Audiofrog.


If I ever had these products in my car, I would probably cover up the name and logo and use the phrase; "The speakers are a high-end brand from America."


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