# Mmmm, Twins...



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

My last build never made it to practical use because of a bum driver so I've moved on....


I started work on a dual 12" setup that should satisfy me. It isn't as interesting as my idea for the last project but sometimes keeping it simple is best. I wanted something very musical since I mostly just listen to music, but also something that will pound on movies too. Space being an issue in a small apartment I also wanted to integrate the subs into the surroundings. I decided to make them into small end tables for my couch. When they aren't at full tilt I'd imagine that keeping stuff on them will be just fine. As suggested by more than one person; having a dual sub setup in a large room makes the sound less localized and I wanted to find out for myself. I took _Autiophile's_ advice and decided to try a pair of Peerless 12" XXLS 8ohm subs. Got them last week and the build quality looks fantastic. They will be run off a 500watt plate amp in parallel so the amp sees 4 ohms and will run 250RMS to each of them. The boxes are both 2.2 cubic feet, sealed, with a double front baffle. I didn't do any internal bracing because the boxes were quite compact and I wasn't going to be running any insane power. Can't wait to fire these up! 

Here is the build progress so far...

I cut all the wood the day before so the following day was for routing and building...

















All the holes are done and I'm ready to build some boxes!


















Test fitting the sub....PERFECT fit; no gaps all the way around!

















I used some screws though the bottom that I will use as feet. I'm going to screw some rubber stoppers from Lowes onto them that work well. I put the screws in just before closing up the box since it would be difficult to do once everything was together.










Currently everything is sanded after perfecting the surface with wood filler. I've got to hit the Sand & Seal later tonight and do some more sanding to get them both ready for paint. I'll update as I bring this into the finishing stages.


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## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

nice, keep us informed.


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## JediMentality (May 7, 2008)

Nice woodworking. Next time, though, I want to see pics of twins, each with nice twin racks and twin rears, next to those twin subs.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

JediMentality said:


> Nice woodworking. Next time, though, I want to see pics of twins, each with nice twin racks and twin rears, next to those twin subs.


I'll see what I can do.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I haven't yet decided what to do about the insides of the boxes. I'm thinking I should do a decent coat of resin on the insides of them and possibly stuffing them with polyfill. 

I'll admit that I'm sort of against polyfill just because of the mechanics of the subs themselves. Wont it get inside the spider and the gap? I also have some more pyramid acoustic foam that I might use; maybe a combination of the two? I want to get some opinions...


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## JediMentality (May 7, 2008)

I've actually never had problems with acoustic foam in my limited experience. Just make sure to glue it to the box with some spray on adhesive. You should be fine.


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## BLD MOVS (Sep 23, 2007)

Nice work!


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> If you are paranoid about the fill interfering with the sub you can staple some panty hose or elastic grill fabric around the outside of the subwoofer cutout, then stretch it back toward the rear wall and secure it to make a cone shape. Then put the fill in and you'll have a barrier to keep the fill from coming in contact with the sub.
> 
> I personally prefer to use some fiberglass insulation attached to the side walls but in a small enclosure that's not always the best option.


I like that pantyhose idea. I know I'm overly paranoid especially since the Peerless's don't even have a pole vent. I'm going to have to get the girlfriend to come with me when I buy those...


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

those screws will scratch the cit outa your floor.

little wooden blocks would work.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

It will not be a problem { as far as localizing subbass }

quote>
As suggested by more than one person; having a dual sub setup in a large room makes the sound less localized and I wanted to find out for myself.
quote>

Now if there was 20 feet of head in between your ears


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

60ndown said:


> those screws will scratch the cit outa your floor.
> 
> little wooden blocks would work.


I already said they will have rubber stoppers screwed onto them; if you don't know what I'm talking about you'll see in a few days when I finish it.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

BTW, I just finished 4 coats of Sand & Seal tonight and I'll get to sanding it with some 220 tomorrow afternoon following work.


PS: Where do I get T-nuts cheaply from a local store? I need 16 of them and they are $4.80 for a bag of 2 at Lowes! I couldn't believe how freakin much they were. I don't want to order them online as shipping will probably negate any savings. Are they that expensive where you guys are?

T-Nuts or Hurricanes...I've heard them called both but I'm talking about these...


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

T-nut on left barb insert on right.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

I thought these were hurricane nuts...


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I just want the **** I posted.....whatever it's called.....I need those.....Local if possible


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Go to the hardware store. I've seen them everywhere. Especially the regular T-nuts you posted.


How much do you pay for them usually? Like I said, lowes wanted like $4.80 a pair


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

60ndown said:


> those screws will scratch the cit outa your floor.
> 
> little wooden blocks would work.


nope. won't work nearly as well. 

When I build home towers or subs, I normally leave ~4" extra space depending on the size, to fill with sand or some other heavy material to help in anchoring it, then I put it on metal spikes if it's on carpet, or rubber spikes if on wood.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

backwoods said:


> nope. won't work nearly as well.
> 
> When I build home towers or subs, I normally leave ~4" extra space depending on the size, to fill with sand or some other heavy material to help in anchoring it, then I put it on metal spikes if it's on carpet, or rubber spikes if on wood.


And for that exact reason, I have provided myself the ability to do both. I'd like to pour some concrete in the base but holy **** it would be heavy. Moving these bitches would like trying to roll a fat chick off you.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

good man...

I like the sand route, cause it's easy to get out later on, especially if you put it in freezer ziplock bags, or leave it in the plastic from the store.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

backwoods said:


> good man...
> 
> I like the sand route, cause it's easy to get out later on, especially if you put it in freezer ziplock bags, or leave it in the plastic from the store.


Sounds like a great idea!


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## jntar (Nov 2, 2005)

Looks good


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

jntar said:


> Looks good


Thanks Justin, I learned to build from you guys so thanks for always putting up with me asking questions and crap.

When I get these done you should come give them a listen. Hopefully they turn out well; things are headed in the right direction so far!


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

damn when will people learn to utilize the EZ Lok threaded inserts? Why must we continue to make the mistake of using T Nuts and Hurricane Nuts?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

AzGrower said:


> damn when will people learn to utilize the EZ Lok threaded inserts? Why must we continue to make the mistake of using T Nuts and Hurricane Nuts?


Please explain....


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

A T-Nut seems like it would resist spinning and has much more surface area to hold from the other side of the material. I've never used those EZ lock threaded inserts but by looking at them I would say the T-nut is the superior product for the job. What makes those better?


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

I already ordered the tnuts :/


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> I already ordered the tnuts :/


I know, thanks man! Those already do more than I really need but I was just curious why these threaded inserts are supposedly better. Only thing I came up with I actually just thought of while typing this; is it better because you don't have to drill all the way through the wood creating another possible leak?


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

looks mainly...plus, many of the tnuts you get (especially at lowe's) are pretty crappy and tend to bend very easy. It is nice to not have a chunk of metal showing on the backside, depending on the application.

I use several different types, and it is application dependent ime.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

backwoods said:


> looks mainly...plus, many of the tnuts you get (especially at lowe's) are pretty crappy and tend to bend very easy. It is nice to not have a chunk of metal showing on the backside, depending on the application.
> 
> I use several different types, and it is application dependent ime.


I see....In my application though they will be on the inside of the box so it wont matter. 


Thanks for the suggestions though guys; keep them comin.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I might try some of that gorilla glue on the backs of them like you mentioned. I've needed an excuse to try that stuff for a while now; I think this is reason enough.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

GG expands, a little goes a long way, be careful.

just use some woodglue? no?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Sneak peek at the twins.....they're starting to fill out; sexy


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## JediMentality (May 7, 2008)

Is the paint still wet in those pics or are they really that glossy? Or is just the lighting? Nonetheless, those look very nice.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

JediMentality said:


> Is the paint still wet in those pics or are they really that glossy? Or is just the lighting? Nonetheless, those look very nice.


Thanks man! 

That picture is with the paint dried over night. It's not that glossy in real life. That picture is from this morning right before I left for work. It's taken with a flash so it looks really reflective. When I take pictures of stuff like this I usually try to get it in a natural light because the flash brings out EVERY imperfection no matter how small it is. I had forgotten this morning the flash was still on but it looked fine after I reviewed the picture so I guess the paint is as smooth as it looks...I'm excited to do a few more coats when I get home tonight


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I tried searching on Lowes website but I can't find it and I don't remember the name. It's a black, semi-gloss, oil based paint. I used it on a table that I made recently and it turned out so well I decided to use the same thing on the sub boxes. It makes a ton of sense to considering they will be in the same room as the table and will match.

I'll check what kind of paint it is when I get home.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> A T-Nut seems like it would resist spinning and has much more surface area to hold from the other side of the material. I've never used those EZ lock threaded inserts but by looking at them I would say the T-nut is the superior product for the job. What makes those better?


A TNut has less surface area of grab and they are notorious for coming loose and basically having to cut the screw to get them off. The threaded insert you can screw/unscrew the machine screw 10,000 times with no ill affects.

I know this from experience, thats why I now only use the threaded inserts for fabrication.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

AzGrower said:


> A TNut has less surface area of grab and they are notorious for coming loose and basically having to cut the screw to get them off. The threaded insert you can screw/unscrew the machine screw 10,000 times with no ill affects.
> 
> I know this from experience, thats why I now only use the threaded inserts for fabrication.


I only had that happen once, and to fix, i drilled a hole through the edge of the tnut, and into the wood. Left the drill bit in, and removed the screw. 

Wasn't that big of a deal. How hard are you guys torquing these things down to get them to strip off the protrusions?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

backwoods said:


> How hard are you guys torquing these things down to get them to strip off the protrusions?


That's what I'm wondering! Damn you guys; mounting Jackhammers?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> What paint are you using?


I looked last night at the paint. It's the Rustoleum brand and it's the American Accents series of paint. 
PRODUCT FEATURES:
Indoor/Outdoor durability
Acrylic latex
Cleans up with soap and water


I had some dry on the side of the paint can and I started fidgeting and picking at it. I was able to peel the paint off. It's stretchy and seems like it wouldn't chip at all. The side of the can was totally smooth.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

you get my email with tracking info?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> you get my email with tracking info?


Nope....what did you send it to?


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> Nope....what did you send it to?


tcu one


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> I've never had protrusions strip off. I've just had the T-nut pop off the back of the baffle and spin. The problem is that I've occasionally pressed in too hard while removing the screws, so as soon as they have enough room to move back off the MDF they do and I'm stuck. This has been compounded by using machine screws that were probably longer than I needed, but had on hand.
> 
> It only had to happen twice for me to switch to hurricane nuts and a dab of glue.


That is my experience as well. I tend to push down on the screw because I'm scared that I'll slip if I don't and take out a suspension or cone with me.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I need some more advice/opinions from you guys.

I'm done painting and while I'm waiting on the T-nuts to arrive I decided to go ahead and start working on the connections. As you can see in the build pictures, I have a hole in the rear of the enclosure because I'll be using terminal cups for quick/easy connections. Last night I soldered the wires onto them so they are ready to go.

I know that terminal cups are a prime suspect for a leaky enclosure and that is something I pride myself on NOT having. Normally I would just put some silicone around the inside of the terminal cup gasket but that will only work if the terminal cup is 100% solid itself. So I had an idea but I needed to run it by you guys first.

My idea was to install the terminal cup normally. Then, from the inside of the enclosure, pour resin into the hole it fits in and totally cover it and the base of the wires. That way I KNOW no air can get out. It will also add some structure to the terminal cup since they are plastic. My only concern was how conductive (if at all) cured resin is. Am I in the clear or am I going to light some **** on fire if I try this?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say, not at all conductive. If you are really concerned just cover the exposed internal connections with some heat shrink tubing (or hot glue) so they don't actually make contact with the resin.


I really wasn't too concerned but I figured I would at least ask the question. Just in case it was a problem I didn't know about.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> It's a reasonable question and it never hurts to be safe. There are a few ways you can check the relative conductivity of any substance. Using it to jumper a couple 120+v leads usually gives a pretty quick indication .


It also burns down my house....but hey, I'd be lying if I said I hadn't considered it


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## my89_928gt (Aug 22, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> I haven't yet decided what to do about the insides of the boxes. I'm thinking I should do a decent coat of resin on the insides of them and possibly stuffing them with polyfill.
> 
> I'll admit that I'm sort of against polyfill just because of the mechanics of the subs themselves. Wont it get inside the spider and the gap? I also have some more pyramid acoustic foam that I might use; maybe a combination of the two? I want to get some opinions...


R13 form Home Depot works great and is cheep.

Also, you can get the similar product as the lose polyfill but in sheet form. But I belive the R13 is better especially for low freq.

Nice wood working.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I'll give it a shot when I get back to Fort Worth Wednesday. I'm almost done and can't wait to hear these.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> I might try some of that gorilla glue on the backs of them like you mentioned. I've needed an excuse to try that stuff for a while now; I think this is reason enough.


Using glue on the back of T-Nuts is a must.

Just make sure you don't get any on the inside threads.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> My idea was to install the terminal cup normally. Then, from the inside of the enclosure, pour resin into the hole it fits in and totally cover it and the base of the wires. That way I KNOW no air can get out. It will also add some structure to the terminal cup since they are plastic. My only concern was how conductive (if at all) cured resin is. Am I in the clear or am I going to light some **** on fire if I try this?


Why resin?

Use normal wood glue which is a better sealant than resin* ALL DAY LONG*!

You could also use a sub floor adhesive or any quality construction adhesive which is also superior as a sealant.

Resin is the_* LAST*_ thing I'd use in your application.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

GlasSman said:


> Using glue on the back of T-Nuts is a must.
> 
> Just make sure you don't get any on the inside threads.


Advice noted...I'll be doing it tomorrow and I'll be sure to be careful 


GlasSman said:


> Why resin?
> 
> Use normal wood glue which is a better sealant than resin* ALL DAY LONG*!
> 
> ...


My only reason for using resin was because it was something that could be poured in and would find it's way into any open seam. Wood glue I wasn't sure would work because it would be bonding to plastic and wood and I just wasn't sure that would really work; do you think it would? Now that I've bought some of that Gorrilla Glue for the T-Nuts I was also thinking about using some of that instead. What do you think?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I got the T-Nuts from Mir and I'll be finishing the subs today. Honestly, I didn't think they would be as much of a ***** as they were. I thought I would just set some glue on them and use a bolt and a washer to tighten them up into the wood. Well....no

I literally SNAPPED 3 bolts as I was tightening them. They broke under load when I was trying to draw the T-nut into the wood. Then my drill died and I'd left the charger/spare battery at my moms house; really gay.

So now I have all the T-nuts set in their holes and glued down with Gorilla glue. I let it sit over night and I'll add the enclosure stuffing today. I'll have pics of the finished product later today.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

i tightened my by hand, i was afraid of same snapping


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> i tightened my by hand, i was afraid of same snapping


I never thought I would be able to break a bolt under load like that with anything short of an impact wrench. Maybe I put too much faith in technology; oh well...


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

So I was able to finish everything today. After I went out and got some pollyfill I was able to get everything done. I ended up using a bunch of Gorilla Glue in the terminal cups to seal them over and above the gasket they already had on them. No air in or out; perfect. After that I needed to solder the wires to the terminals first and get some solid connections.










I used 1 bag of stuffing per enclosure and I'm VERY happy with the result. I know it sounds stupid; but I stuck my head in the sub cutout and spoke with the enclosure empty and then I did it again in the other enclosure that I had stuffed. I wasn't expecting too be able to notice the difference but it almost knocked me out. The empty enclosure sounded like I was in a concrete stair well while the other sounded like I was in a room made entirely out of cashmere; and yes, that's good. I pulled all the stuffing as I put it into the enclosure and it expanded quite a bit from the original bag size. 










*The Final Word*
I'm listening to them as I type this and I'm in love. VERY VERY warm and controlled. Coming from my last sub, 13OV2 ported w/ an LT550 plate amp, these sound like aren't even trying. I have yet to visually see the cone move. I know it is moving but it's decently loud and my eyes don't detect any motion. I haven't cranked them yet since this is the first day they have seen any power. 

So Jack Johnson just decided he would grace windows media player and now I'm listening to that. The subs aren't overpowering and they seem to blend well with my HSU Research HB1 bookshelfs and center I have. With the dual setup the sound is enveloping. It's hard to explain really; it's not like the sound is being created IN the room but rather BY the room itself. It's like the sound had always been there.

New song, new paragraph....Aqueous Transmission.
For those of you who have heard this incubus song you know it's a very sweet 8 minute ride with a rather consistent (and pronounced) bass line. Almost overpowering for the song but just within reason. The bassline is a little odd too. Most systems I play it on have a hard time with a strange resonance in the bass frequencies. It's like if two subs were playing nearly the same note but one was a touch off key and the notes battle and you can hear the fluctuations of the waves matching. But on these....IT"S PERFECT! Nothing but lush harmony from these two ladies. One thing I should note is that with a sub on either side of the couch the bass actually sounds like it might be emanating from the center channel. I found it a bit odd at first but I actually like it....a lot.

I've still got some tuning to do tomorrow and they will get some more play/break in time.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

See guys, that's what happens when you use good equipment thoughtfully.

You neglected the most important bit, though: how are your subs placed?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> With the dual setup the sound is enveloping. It's hard to explain really; it's not like the sound is being created IN the room but rather BY the room itself. It's like the sound had always been there.
> 
> One thing I should note is that with a sub on either side of the couch the bass actually sounds like it might be emanating from the center channel. I found it a bit odd at first but I actually like it....a lot.
> 
> I've still got some tuning to do tomorrow and they will get some more play/break in time.


DS-21 , does having one on either side of the couch conjure a picture for you ?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> See guys, that's what happens when you use good equipment thoughtfully.
> 
> You neglected the most important bit, though: how are your subs placed?


They are placed one on either side of the couch firing forward towards the TV. The room is NOT square or a rectangle. The TV and the listening position are on parallel walls across the room from one another. There is an 8foot ceiling that ends above the right side of the TV and the listening position. Left and above that is a MUCH higher ceiling since my place is a loft. Very crazy in terms of room design.

Here is a picture from the listening position facing the TV.











Here is a picture from the top of the TV facing the listening position/couch.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

and no those speaker stands aren't finished....I banged those out Saturday and have yet to paint them


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

I have an Aura Basshaker if you want it to mount under your futon 20watts


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> I have an Aura Basshaker if you want it to mount under your futon 20watts


lol, I doubt I need anything else to rattle my apartment, thanks for the offer though Mir.

After class I'm going to do some more tuning and get some more play time to break these in a bit more. I'm going to try and find a time when my neighbors aren't home so I can push them a little and see what they are capable of.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> DS-21 , does having one on either side of the couch conjure a picture for you ?


No. I had no idea where the couch was in relation to the room boundaries until he posted the pictures.


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