# Soundstream discontinuing the Ref line



## JoshHefnerX

Noticed that the ref1.1000 was unavailable at the distributors and decided to email them. Anyone know anything about this?

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-----Original Message-----
From: Soundstream [mailto[email protected]] 
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:12 AM
To: joshhefner
Subject: Re: Soundstream Contact Form

The entire Reference series amplifiers are discontinued.

On 5/15/2014 8:38 PM, joshhefner wrote:
> ATTN: ordering-dept
> From: Joshua Hefner
> Email: joshhefner
> Tel: 
> Message: Soundstream ref 1.1000 Had a question, all of the online distributors are saying this is discontinued and your own website says it\'s not available, however the others reference series do seem to be available. Is something being phased out or revamped?
> IP: 70.190.191.26


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## hot9dog

Why would a company discontinue a flagship product????? The ref amps are killer! Does anybody honestly see them bringing a better new product to the market??? Not me. Sad....


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## [email protected]

Sorry guys we did discontinue the Reference line. We are working on something to replace it for 2015. As of right now the Tarantula Nano is and Rubicon will be our better SQ Amps. In fact the Tarantula Nano and a little brand that starts with a H and ends with an ertz, share the exact same pcb and components. So if your looking for a good quality amp and don't want to spend a fortune they are your best bet. It pained me to get rid of them but we had to. They just don't sell anymore.


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## miniSQ

[email protected] said:


> Sorry guys we did discontinue the Reference line. We are working on something to replace it for 2015. As of right now the Tarantula Nano is and Rubicon will be our better SQ Amps. In fact the Tarantula Nano and a little brand that starts with a H and ends with an ertz, share the exact same pcb and components. So if your looking for a good quality amp and don't want to spend a fortune they are your best bet. It pained me to get rid of them but we had to. They just don't sell anymore.


It would be nice to see you lose names like "Tarantula Nano" moving forward if that is going to be your flagship amp.


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## JoshHefnerX

I am in the middle of building my car, and just found out one of the amps I was going to use had pregnant caps... Was really looking at the ref line as replacement. :-( I guess the other thing is, why get a Rubicon when supposedly the black ice series were based on the rubicon but slightly improved.


Josh


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## Mike Bober

Wow...i might have got one of the last ones....glad i got it when i did....they are beauties to look at, and hoping they sound as beautiful as they look.


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## Mike Bober

[email protected] said:


> Sorry guys we did discontinue the Reference line. We are working on something to replace it for 2015. As of right now the Tarantula Nano is and Rubicon will be our better SQ Amps. In fact the Tarantula Nano and a little brand that starts with a H and ends with an ertz, share the exact same pcb and components. So if your looking for a good quality amp and don't want to spend a fortune they are your best bet. It pained me to get rid of them but we had to. They just don't sell anymore.


Thats got me wondering.....what is the best selling line of amps your selling now?


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## edzyy

Rubicon's for SQ?

Those amps don't even do rated last I recall..


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## 1fishman

Aside from the mono block amps, i think the Soundstream Ref and the PPI Power Class are essentially the same amps.

I wonder if the PPI Power Class are sticking around?


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## knever3

Wow, say it ain't so. What a great comeback, authough it was a shell of it's former self. Still I was so excited to see the Reference line come back and the old school style. Being a realist I can see that everyone is looking for the smallest/most power bang for the buck. As usual audiophiles get left out in the cold lacking another great product. Hopefully they will come back with something in the near future.


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## vulgamore89

I think PPI is discontinuing the power class as well


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## chithead

I can't understand why those Tarantula Nano are being mocked and overlooked by the "SQ" crowd. They are stout amps, very clean, and amazing for the price point. All that in a compact chassis, just seems like it would be a win/win for a lot more people.


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## JoshHefnerX

Has anyone tested the TN's to see if they actually do rated power?

Josh


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## 1fishman

JoshHefnerX said:


> Has anyone tested the TN's to see if they actually do rated power?
> 
> Josh


Pretty sure it's the same as PPI Phantom which does rated.


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## JoshHefnerX

Thanks Fishman - and they look better.


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## [email protected]

PPI Phantom and Soundstream TN amps are the same thing just different heat sinks. Guys one of our competitors is using Phantom amps and he wins everything he enters. So trust me they work and sound amazing. 

Also yes it is true Powerclass is gone as well. It will be back....in 2015


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## timberwolf

cajunner said:


> if this is a harbinger of the times, you can look at Phoenix Gold's Elite series hitting the disco button soon as well, since the principles of real estate and big boy amplification have been summarily executed by the compact, cool runnings of class d efficiency.


The PG Elite amps were never that great to begin with. I have owned three and sold them all. They just don't compare to other amps in that price range. All marketing and no results.

As far as Soundstream, I found it funny that their rep just got on here and touted another well known manufacturer just to try and make the brand he represents seem better. How about just making a better product and developing a name and customer base from that?


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## timberwolf

chithead said:


> I can't understand why those Tarantula Nano are being mocked and overlooked by the "SQ" crowd. They are stout amps, very clean, and amazing for the price point. All that in a compact chassis, just seems like it would be a win/win for a lot more people.


Because there is more to SQ than being "stout and clean".


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## [email protected]

Just so you know Soundstream owns PPI. We make the same great product in both lines because we have PPI customers and Soundstream customers. We share the same technology across many of our lines to help save cost for you guys, so you get a great product without having to spend an arm and a leg.


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## GLN305

[email protected] said:


> Just so you know Soundstream owns PPI. We make the same great product in both lines because we have PPI customers and Soundstream customers. We share the same technology across many of our lines to help save cost for you guys, so you get a great product without having to spend an arm and a leg.


I think most of us knew that, but we certainly appreciate the money saved and the bad ass product offered. Keep on keepin on!!


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## Hi-FiDelity

I was sad to see the current REF and PC amp go but if there replacements are half as good as they were they will be tough to beat.


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## Hi-FiDelity

timberwolf said:


> Because there is more to SQ than being "stout and clean".


I though a clean signal was the goal of an sq oriented amp. :huh2:


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## vulgamore89

I love my power class amps. The 1000.1 is a tank. Hopefully the new ones will be just as nice


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## [email protected]

cajunner said:


> as car audio shrinks and online rep is more valued, you see these sorts of things.
> 
> I too, figured Hertz wasn't exactly "the bar" on amplifier quality, but I've only been a spectator to the PG Elite, or late model SS/PPI product.
> 
> If I had to guess, most of the people who say they want the old school size factor, build quality, and premium parts in the build, are doing a lot of lip service or there just aren't that many of them around to support that kind of engineering outlay.
> 
> You have huge Mosconi body-boards to groove on, Ground Zero has some surf-boards, maybe the interest in a PG revival was based on their performance?
> 
> You seem to think so, and I say that even as commodity amps are not far from the conversation.
> 
> ryan basically completed the definition of commodity, when he says the same amp for different customers, is their business model. Going so far as to say their competition uses the same exact board/parts, is like saying commodity squared.
> 
> but, if commodity pricing is any indicator, people seem to prefer the mid-grade vs. the high test.


See thats the thing the perception of the TN and Phantom amps is that they are "mid-grade" however for those who have tried them know that they are not. They are intact a high quality amp that has high quality components. We just don't get the "hertz" money for them, which only benefits the end consumer. So again unless you have actually experienced these amps then you don't know their true potential. 
Also the day of the super inefficient surf boards are long gone, and the days of the ultra compact super efficient amps are here. Why would we invest a ton of money into a huge amplifier that cost a lot of money to build when we can build a 95% efficient class d amp that sounds just as good. Back in the day class d was terrible for sound quality, but the chips have come along way from then. Case in point Mosconi just released an amp that is 6"x6" and is $1299 with dsp built in. Granted at that price it won't sell in large quantities but its something to talk about and it will get people interested in their product. 
We just release our Stealth amplifiers days ago, made in Korea of the finest parts and sounds amazing, and yet it the size of a cellphone. And the best part is it retails for under $300, and they make real power. They aren't some glorified chip amp with bigger capacitors. They are a real amp with a real power supply, make good power and fit any where.


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## timberwolf

cajunner said:


> If I had to guess, most of the people who say they want the old school size factor, build quality, and premium parts in the build, are doing a lot of lip service or there just aren't that many of them around to support that kind of engineering outlay.


I don't think that is the case. There are tons of people out there that still want sound over small form factor....me included. The problem with the PG Elites is that the sound is not there. When you ask a comparable amount of $ to other SQ amps and tout all the high end parts inside, the sound better be there. It isn't there. When smaller cheaper amps sound better than a marketed full blown SQ amp, with tons of high end parts and an over built power supply, there is a problem in the engineering department.


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## timberwolf

[email protected] said:


> See thats the thing the perception of the TN and Phantom amps is that they are "mid-grade" however for those who have tried them know that they are not. They are intact a high quality amp that has high quality components. We just don't get the "hertz" money for them, which only benefits the end consumer. So again unless you have actually experienced these amps then you don't know their true potential.


Just in stating my own opinion not meaning to bash your company, I don't even consider them "mid-grade". They are a low level product that has nothing special related to them. As you even stated, you and many other companies are using the same boards. You keep referring to Hertz. In my mind, Hertz isn't really recognized for high end amps, just as the previous poster stated.

You are touting them as high level. Do you really think your amps compare to other high end amps (Mosconi, Arc SE, Linear Power, Etc.)?


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## hot9dog

these companies are scrambling to make products that sell, the problem is when companies over look a factor that isnt represented on a profitability spreadsheet- they are making products that reproduce music and music is a passionate emotional thing. The passion factor is really high with this DIYMA crew. I was a HUGE fan of the Power Class and the Reference line of amps that Epsilon produced...im not alone in this notion. The new product to replace these lines will be looked at, ripped open to view the guts and be put on the bench to verify its heritage... lol to be honest, im glad your on this forum Ryan- you take our verbal tidal waves and maintain your footing... but even after all of this.... im still sad to see these amps being retired.


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## timberwolf

^^You are right that expecting a proprietary design is few and far between. The one benefit to ubuy is you are getting a Zeff design.

Even though the Arc SE line is great, they aren't totally made here either. They claim assembled and designed in the USA. However, you can get on ubuy's website and find the SE board designs for sale. Yep. They are there.

Linear Power is doing it all here. Their boards are designed by the same old LP engineer, and the amps are outstanding. When the sound is there, not the marketing, then the amps sell. You can't deny what you hear.


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## ZAKOH

JoshHefnerX said:


> Has anyone tested the TN's to see if they actually do rated power?
> 
> Josh


Yes, that family of amplifiers has been tested many times. Not just the TNs, but also others that share the same design (Polk, Hertz, PPI). They do their rated, at least, and with very low distortion. The price performance of these amplifiers is incredible.


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## chithead

timberwolf said:


> Linear Power is doing it all here. Their boards are designed by the same old LP engineer, and the amps are outstanding. When the sound is there, not the marketing, then the amps sell. You can't deny what you hear.


Wait... I don't normally respond to other people's opinions, because that's what makes this great big pool of audio lovers so much fun and unique. But this right here...

WOW.


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## ZAKOH

The large Class A/B amps designed for SQ are probably going the way of audiophile gold plated speaker wires. A few brands will offer a few "hand crafted" Class A/B amplifiers for enthusiasts, but the rest of market will go with the more practical Class D technology, which also has become quite cheap due to mass production.


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## ChrisB

It is good to see that Chris from New York is back! I recognized him from his post this morning and sent him an e-hug! I guess he has a stockpile of Linear Power and Blues to unload.


Sent from my iPhone 5S using Tapatalk


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## chithead

ChrisB said:


> It is good to see that Chris from New York is back! I recognized him from his post this morning and sent him an e-hug! I guess he has a stockpile of Linear Power and Blues to unload.


Is that what Commandments 11-15 were? 

11. Thou shalt use LP.
12. Thou shalt use Blues. 
13. Thou shalt use Mosconi. 
14. Thou shalt use Arc SE. 
15. Thou must bash all other brands.


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## timberwolf

chithead said:


> Wait... I don't normally respond to other people's opinions, because that's what makes this great big pool of audio lovers so much fun and unique. But this right here...
> 
> WOW.


That is how most people look that run Zapco. Face palm! I've heard multiple team members are leaving the brand. It was only a matter of time before the name we all used to admire turned to **** and users of said brand finally faced the music.


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## hot9dog

chithead said:


> Is that what Commandments 11-15 were?
> 
> 11. Thou shalt use LP.
> 12. Thou shalt use Blues.
> 13. Thou shalt use Mosconi.
> 14. Thou shalt use Arc SE.
> 15. Thou must bash all other brands.


And commandment #15 rears its ugly head just in time to pop a big zit all over this post. Lol 
Im glad im not the only one who sees this hypocrisy. ...


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## timberwolf

hot9dog said:


> And commandment #15 rears its ugly head just in time to pop a big zit all over this post. Lol
> Im glad im not the only one who sees this hypocrisy. ...


Do you know the definition of hypocrisy? I would look it up and get educated. 

My position stands.


Not to mention, I didn't bash any brand in this thread. My opinion and experience with all these products is justified, unlike most on this forum that state opinions on products that 90% of the time they have never touched. 

When a rep comes in here stating that his lower level product should not be thought of as "mid-grade" and should be thought of as more (high-end), then I think a discussion needs to be had. It's funny how he left when he was asked about it.


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## Mike Bober

To me these are some of the sweetest looking amps ive seen and i just happen to get a couple before they were all sold out. Im in big hurry to get them in, but the weather will not cooperate with ne here! hahaha









Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## hot9dog

Your rebuttal is mute.


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## Schizm

*moot^

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2


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## timberwolf

hot9dog said:


> Your rebuttal is mute.


Don't you mean moot?

So he doesn't know the definition of hypocrisy or moot. Funny.


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## Hi-FiDelity

cajunner said:


> they discontinued their high end line, and without any dramatic effect, expect us to just move their mid grade product up to the top tier.
> 
> that is what it sounded like, and instead of saying "we've got another line on the way, that replaces the Reference in 2015, much improved" we got "be happy with the Nano Tarantula, it's our new high grade" instead.
> 
> 
> so I have to agree, it doesn't bode well if the rep can't commit to a new amp line that replaces the Reference line, with an improved model.


Did you just ignore what Ryan wrote in his first response. They are not expecting you to go to the Rubicon or Black Ice amps, they are reintroducing a new redesigned Reference and Power Class line next year.


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## rton20s

I'm curious to see where this all leads. 

The discontinuation of Power Class and Reference aren't all that surprising to me. The brands do not have the cache that they once did. And the person working hardest to bring that cache back hasn't been with the company for over a year. (No offense Ryan, I think we all appreciate your presence here on DIYMA and the work you do for Epsilon.) 

I just don't see any of the Epsilon brands as having a pristine enough reputation to support "high end" car audio products (and the associated price points). From the outside, it appears that Epsilon has settled into their new space in the industry and is marketing to the masses. Which is what they need to do to move product and stay in business. They have proven though, that even their remaining mid-grade products are good enough to win in competitions.


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## timberwolf

rton20s said:


> They have proven though, that even their remaining mid-grade products are good enough to win in competitions.


I will be the first to state that competitions don't tell all, but really? 

Where do you see Soundstream or Precision Power at all on the finals standings? You see Arc, Zapco, Linear Power, and a few others. As most that stay up on the competitions realize, the finals results are what matter. There aren't enough good cars in all areas to make normal show results matter. When you go to the show and have limited competition, if any, then how does that matter? 

When I see them start showing up on finals results sheets, then I'll think twice. Until then, my ears have told me otherwise.

It would help for the company reps to just stay in their lane. It's a low level-mid level product. Why try to tout it as high level? To fool the uneducated into buying it so they are disappointed and never come back?


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## rton20s

cajunner said:


> would you go into competition with a Coustic amp, or a Hifonics?


If it was all I had? Sure, why not.  I'm sure you'll see plenty of Hifonics in the SPL lanes. 



cajunner said:


> that's what the Soundstream, Precision Power lines are turning into, and have been for a long time. I see innovation in their products too, it's right above the Power Acoustik stuff, it's like MB Quart...


Was you comment about "innovation" sarcasm? I could see arguments both ways on that one. I know you love to be contrary, so I am just trying to figure our which side you've decided to be contrary to today. 



cajunner said:


> it's a common procession, the formula is known, and the denial that we're all buying better than mid grade product because the name, the great name is behind it, is easy to see.
> 
> How about some Nakamichi headphones? Must be good, anything Nakamichi is excellent...
> 
> that's how it is, today.


Who is claiming it is better than mid-grade? Epsilon's current top tier products were lower mid-grade last year before the deletion of their Power Class and Reference product lines. Nothing makes the Rubicon/Black Ice or Phantom/Tarantula Nano lines any more high end this year than they were last year. They have just become the top tier products for Epsilon. 

Bottom line, you sell to the market you target. Power Class and Reference lines were not enough to overcome the current public perception of their respective brands. On the other hand, Epsilon is selling Phantom amps like hotcakes.


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## rton20s

timberwolf said:


> I will be the first to state that competitions don't tell all, but really?
> 
> Where do you see Soundstream or Precision Power at all on the finals standings? You see Arc, Zapco, Linear Power, and a few others. As most that stay up on the competitions realize, the finals results are what matter. There aren't enough good cars in all areas to make normal show results matter. When you go to the show and have limited competition, if any, then how does that matter?
> 
> When I see them start showing up on finals results sheets, then I'll think twice. Until then, my ears have told me otherwise.
> 
> It would help for the company reps to just stay in their lane. It's a low level-mid level product. Why try to tout it as high level? To fool the uneducated into buying it so they are disappointed and never come back?


I am not here to attack or defend Epsilon. Just repeating the claims of Ryan and one of their team members. You might want to ask "Big T" about the competition thing. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2074290-post335.html


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## hot9dog

timberwolf said:


> Don't you mean moot?
> 
> So he doesn't know the definition of hypocrisy or moot. Funny.


I ment 'mute'.... as in i hear nothing you have to say because it all sounds like garbage to me. Its call a play on words.... get a grip.


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## rton20s

cajunner said:


> no, I see innovation in MB Quart product today, I see the use of AMT tweeters as innovative in PPI sets, heck even just tooling for and making a working 2.5" or 3" midrange that can handle power, and the passive crossover to go along, is an investment and innovative.
> 
> so, not all the way contrarian today.


OK. Just curious. And the things you pointed out are some of the reasons I could see that side of the coin. The flipside being the amps you talked about in the rest of your post. Essentially a "me too" of the shelf design with custom tooled heatsink. 

And while some of the stuff from Maxxonics is a bit intriguing, I think their marketing guys are enough to keep me from ever seriously considering their products. Have you ever caught any of the Sonic Electronix youtube videos featuring the Maxxonics guys? Ouch.  Then again, I don't think I am the demographic they are going after.


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## SkizeR

timberwolf said:


> Where do you see Soundstream or Precision Power at all on the finals standings? You see Arc, Zapco, Linear Power, and a few others.


thats interesting.. just last night you said zapco was chinese junk. maybe im missing something.


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## timberwolf

SkizeR said:


> thats interesting.. just last night you said zapco was chinese junk. maybe im missing something.


I am not a judge. Zapco is junk in my eyes.


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## rton20s

So competition results are a reasonable unit of measure for quality when it is convenient for you, but they aren't when it isn't? 

Weren't you the one talking about the definition of hypocrisy not too long ago?


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## chithead

Guys guys... come on now. It's just his opinion, and he is entitled to it. 

Just relax, take a breath, and try to remember the last time you saw a Linear Power amp used in any install, let alone a competition winning one. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## SkizeR

chithead said:


> Guys guys... come on now. It's just his opinion, and he is entitled to it.
> 
> Just relax, take a breath, and try to remember the last time you saw a Linear Power amp used in any install, let alone a competition winning one. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


lol you should have seen this guy last night. for some reason i feel like this guy is jagedcornflakes on another account.. again. hes just here to piss people off but makes himself look like a ******* in the process


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## rton20s

jaggedtimberwolfflakes?


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## ChrisB

chithead said:


> Just relax, take a breath, and try to remember the last time you saw a Linear Power amp used in any install, let alone a competition winning one. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


Stop making me relive that period of stupidity where I mistakenly thought that 20 year old relics were better than things made within the last decade.:mean:

Of course, I'm over that now.


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## ChrisB

Oh, but to keep this relevant, I cringe to think at the tooling and assembly costs on the new Reference line if they were built anything like the old ones with the top mounted FETS. Please tell me the outgoing models weren't built that way...


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## Hi-FiDelity

ChrisB said:


> Oh, but to keep this relevant, I cringe to think at the tooling and assembly costs on the new Reference line if they were built anything like the old ones with the top mounted FETS. Please tell me the outgoing models weren't built that way...


They were, my 5.1000 has top mounted output fets and all the gut shots of the rest of the line point in that direction as well. I suspect that the real reason behind them pulling them after offering the product since 2009 and I wouldn't be surprised if the outgoing PC class was laid out in a similar manner.


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## fniess3

rton20s said:


> jaggedtimberwolfflakes?


:laugh:

I have had that feeling the more this guy posts.


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## Victor_inox

SkizeR said:


> thats interesting.. just last night you said zapco was chinese junk. maybe im missing something.


 He came back to troll another thread. timber aren`t you the_audiophile_connection on ebay?


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## thehatedguy

I had probably the last big install in IASCA that had Linear Power amps...was around 2004 I think. You have started to see them pop up here and there since then mainly in USACi. Me and Bill Lawerence were the only guys running LP amps back then.


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## thehatedguy

I don't see as many Arc based cars anymore...nothing like JL and Zapco. Arc dropped off when they did a way with the team.


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## timberwolf

rton20s said:


> So competition results are a reasonable unit of measure for quality when it is convenient for you, but they aren't when it isn't?
> 
> Weren't you the one talking about the definition of hypocrisy not too long ago?


Actually, I stating in my first sentence to the reply you are referring to that "I will be the first to state that competitions do not tell all". Way to take one comment out of context. The point was that Soundstream and Precision Power are never in the final standings at finals even though you stated they were winning in competition. Maybe single events, but never at finals. 




chithead said:


> Guys guys... come on now. It's just his opinion, and he is entitled to it.
> 
> Just relax, take a breath, and try to remember the last time you saw a Linear Power amp used in any install, let alone a competition winning one. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


I don't think a username has ever fit someone so perfectly.

If you were actually an enthusiast, instead of just some douche who gets on here to cause a stir about how cheap he can build a still ****ty system, then you would realize there are numerous LP vehicles in competition with very nice systems doing very well. Where have you been? Oh yeah...here....at DIYMA. I am sure all the people that come here for advice enjoy your couch potato information.

It's funny to me that I have stated I don't use LP, but believe they are great amps. Yet, the same old few come out of the woodwork just to bad mouth the company. A bit jealous you can't run or afford them?

Chithead - couldn't afford them if he wanted to.

ChrisB - burned so many bridges bashing the product, he now has nightmares wishing he could turn back time. Why else would he still be bad mouthing a product YEARS later simply because his installation skills were subpar. It wasn't the products fault Chris.....it was your fault. 

SBN Results anyone (that is an acronym for Spring Break Nationals Chithead :laugh:

Events

Wow. Lots of Linear Power on that page. Wow. Ray Rayfield entering Master class for fun with a 6.5 PASSIVE component set and one amp and placing second? Wow. Just 1.5 points behind first. He did the same thing at finals last year. 

A Linear Power car also took "Best of the Best" at finals last year. 

Chithead....read more. You are a putz who gets on this forum just to talk trash. You aren't an enthusiast.

Some competitors?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Linear-Power/196969380330184?id=196969380330184&sk=photos_stream


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## thehatedguy

Timberwolf...what class do you or did you compete in? Seeing your IP address is pinged back to Jamestown, NY you must have hit some of those shows around there.


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## ChrisB

timberwolf said:


> ChrisB - burned so many bridges bashing the product, he now has nightmares wishing he could turn back time. Why else would he still be bad mouthing a product YEARS later simply because his installation skills were subpar. It wasn't the products fault Chris.....it was your fault.


timberwolf - still butthurt after all these years and all he has is petty insults as a rebuttal. 

In response to what you typed, it's a case of mind over matter. I don't mind because YOU don't matter.


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## timberwolf

ChrisB said:


> timberwolf - still butthurt after all these years and all he has is petty insults as a rebuttal.
> 
> In response to what you typed, it's a case of mind over matter. I don't mind because YOU don't matter.


Your first sentence contradicted the second (and the fact that you responded to begin with).

Good luck Mr. Negative.


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## timberwolf

double piddly


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## thehatedguy

Don't see the contradiction myself.

But if you have issues with Chris, take them to PM and stop the bickering.


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## timberwolf

thehatedguy said:


> Don't see the contradiction myself.
> 
> But if you have issues with Chris, take them to PM and stop the bickering.


You "moderators" make this site the clear joke that it is.


thehatedguy - "Let me get my two cents in and contribute to the bickering.......stop the bickering".


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## thehatedguy

That's fine if you think that.

Now stop the bickering or take a time out.


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## fniess3

timberwolf said:


> You "moderators" make this site the clear joke that it is.
> 
> 
> thehatedguy - "Let me get my two cents in and contribute to the bickering.......stop the bickering".



If its such a "joke" then why are you here?


----------



## timberwolf

thehatedguy said:


> That's fine if you think that.
> 
> Now stop the bickering or take a time out.


I'll take the time out mom.

Then come back and bust ass again whenever I feel like it. You can't stop me and you know it. 

It's funny how "moderators" think a ban is a permanent thing....or even an inconvenience. 

Just think...if the moderators were even McDonalds managers in real life (set the bar high), then they might not think they hold power here.


----------



## ChrisB

thehatedguy said:


> Don't see the contradiction myself.
> 
> But if you have issues with Chris, take them to PM and stop the bickering.


But you are ruining the entertainment aspect I gain from this forum. 

Fine, you win, PM it is.:mean:


----------



## CrossFired

To bad your dropping the best sounding and best looking amps you make.

Kinda stupid, but if there not selling, I guess theres that. SS does not push there products like they did in the past. 

I love the Ref line! Only amps I've had from SS that sounded better were the Van gogh amps. I always make the mistake that next years models will always be better. That less and less true, ever year that pass. Down right depressing!




[email protected] said:


> Sorry guys we did discontinue the Reference line. We are working on something to replace it for 2015. As of right now the Tarantula Nano is and Rubicon will be our better SQ Amps. In fact the Tarantula Nano and a little brand that starts with a H and ends with an ertz, share the exact same pcb and components. So if your looking for a good quality amp and don't want to spend a fortune they are your best bet. It pained me to get rid of them but we had to. They just don't sell anymore.


----------



## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> I don't see as many Arc based cars anymore...nothing like JL and Zapco. Arc dropped off when they did a way with the team.


Arc still has a team AFAIK. Fred even went to Daytona to help out that Friday. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## unpredictableacts

Is this how you promote and increase eBay sells, Mr Blood? I think there are easier ways.


----------



## chithead

Gosh, I've never managed to aggravate someone online to the point of name calling before. 

Feels kind of nice to have all this awesome power


----------



## unpredictableacts

chithead said:


> Gosh, I've never managed to aggravate someone online to the point of name calling before.
> 
> Feels kind of nice to have all this awesome linear power


Fixed


----------



## hot9dog

timberwolf said:


> You "moderators" make this site the clear joke that it is.
> 
> 
> thehatedguy - "Let me get my two cents in and contribute to the bickering.......stop the bickering".


Wow.... really???? But it to rest young blood, your words and anger are getting the best of you.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

:inout:


----------



## timberwolf

chithead said:


> Gosh, I've never managed to aggravate someone online to the point of name calling before.
> 
> Feels kind of nice to have all this awesome power


It must be nice to associate with such idiots who don't realize you are changing the subject instead of accepting you look like a fool for your previous comments that were discredited with facts.

Birds of a feather flock together I guess.


----------



## Victor_inox

fniess3 said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I have had that feeling the more this guy posts.


You are not alone. Take this clown as free entertainment.


----------



## 1996blackmax

Came in to read what happened with these amps....didn't expect this much entertainment.


----------



## chithead

I like clowns. They make me laugh.


----------



## thehatedguy

It's mostly Steve Head and his crew left isn't it?



quality_sound said:


> Arc still has a team AFAIK. Fred even went to Daytona to help out that Friday.
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

unpredictableacts said:


> Is this how you promote and increase eBay sells, Mr Blood? I think there are easier ways.


 He is posting more to get his post count up. Access to classifieds.

Funny thing is his ebay id the_audiophile_connection but his listings mostly overpriced outdated junk.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

Victor_inox said:


> Funny thing is his ebay id the_audiophile_connection but his listings mostly overpriced outdated junk.


But if it was made in the 80's it had to be the pinnacle of perfection right.


----------



## ChrisB

chithead said:


> Gosh, I've never managed to aggravate someone online to the point of name calling before.
> 
> Feels kind of nice to have all this awesome power


You need to hang around with me some more because I tend to unite people. It's rather unfortunate that I unite them against me, but I unite them nonetheless. :laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox

Hi-FiDelity said:


> But if it was made in the 80's it had to be the pinnacle of perfection right.


ebay dictionary.
1. vintage- junk. 
2. old school- about to die/repair cost will run twice as much as new better unit.
3. rare- no one need POS.
There is much longer list, I just don`t remember the rest.


----------



## SkizeR

Victor_inox said:


> He is posting more to get his post count up. Access to classifieds.
> 
> Funny thing is his ebay id the_audiophile_connection but his listings mostly overpriced outdated junk.


holy ****! look at the prices on those rockford amps haha. i see those going for under 100 bucks all the time on craigslist and on facebook classified groups


----------



## chithead

ChrisB said:


> You need to hang around with me some more because I tend to unite people. It's rather unfortunate that I unite them against me, but I unite them nonetheless. :laugh:


----------



## ChrisB

Victor_inox said:


> ebay dictionary.
> 1. vintage- junk.
> 2. old school- about to die/repair cost will run twice as much as new better unit.
> 3. rare- no one need POS.
> There is much longer list, I just don`t remember the rest.


That sums up my experience when I was all nostalgic and what not.

People pushing nostalgia will say "They don't make them like they used to" and to that I usually respond with one word... "GOOD!"


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

Victor_inox said:


> ebay dictionary.
> 1. vintage- junk.
> 2. old school- about to die/repair cost will run twice as much as new better unit.
> 3. rare- no one need POS.
> There is much longer list, I just don`t remember the rest.


So it's as the same as the news paper classifieds or CL dictionary.


----------



## Victor_inox

Hi-FiDelity said:


> So it's as the same as the news paper classifieds or CL dictionary.


Yes, different media same purpose.


----------



## rton20s

Victor_inox said:


> He is posting more to get his post count up. Access to classifieds.
> 
> Funny thing is his ebay id the_audiophile_connection but his listings mostly overpriced outdated junk.


It also explains why the Arc Audio FD4150 is the best thing since sliced bread.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

But it has to be the best, he is a true enthusiast and we are just Philistines.


----------



## ChrisB

I would actually welcome the shift of the new Reference line to be full-range class d while resembling the old design in looks only. Until I get out of this compact car phase, dedicating space for power will be my deciding factor when purchasing amplifiers. If it won't fit under the driver's seat, then that is a product I must pass on!

At the end of the day, it is just car audio that we are talking about and thankfully there are still tons of options available to accomplish our goals at just about any price point. 


Sent from my iPhone 5S using Tapatalk


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

As another compact car owner I completely agree chris, though I am still gonna wedge my 5.1000 into my Tiburon (even if it weighs half as much as the car  ). If Soundstream goes the same route that Phoenix Gold did with the second gen Ti amps (50% chassis reduction by going full class D) I can see the new REFERENCE line gaining more traction. Same goes for the Power Class at PPI.


----------



## Victor_inox

ChrisB said:


> I would actually welcome the shift of the new Reference line to be full-range class d while resembling the old design in looks only. Until I get out of this compact car phase, dedicating space for power will be my deciding factor when purchasing amplifiers. If it won't fit under the driver's seat, then that is a product I must pass on!
> 
> At the end of the day, it is just car audio that we are talking about and thankfully there are still tons of options available to accomplish our goals at just about any price point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 5S using Tapatalk



there is no sonic requirement to have class AB anymore.
400KHz switching power supplies in modern class D amps eliminated such benefits. 10 times faster than first gen D class amps. in conjunction with good DSP and/or tube preamp they sound better than anything made prior.


----------



## hot9dog

Small car owner also, but im also a big amp freak. A constant conflict in space available and aesthetics. Lol. Its like playing Tetris with components. Im still amazed i was able to fit it all in there, still have my spare tire and room for groceries. Damn class A/B addiction of mine ...


----------



## hot9dog

Maybe its time i rethink my class A/B way...lol


----------



## Victor_inox

hot9dog said:


> Maybe its time i rethink my class A/B way...lol


JL HD or new PG will do great, try it.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

Victor_inox said:


> JL HD or new PG will do great, try it.


Or Clarion's new XC amps, 6 channels in a 10x6x2 chassis.


----------



## CrossFired

hot9dog said:


> Small car owner also, but im also a big amp freak. A constant conflict in space available and aesthetics. Lol. Its like playing Tetris with components. Im still amazed i was able to fit it all in there, still have my spare tire and room for groceries. Damn class A/B addiction of mine ...


I got my Boston GT42 22 inch long amp under the passenger set of my Yaris I needed to use a 20 lb hammer


----------



## hot9dog

CrossFired said:


> I got my Boston GT42 22 inch long amp under the passenger set of my Yaris I need to use a 20 lb hammer


A phoenix gold ti1600.5, mb quart ra400.2, synthesis processor and a mb quart 15" (rockford built) all in a 2009 vw gti...... a cram fest. Lol


----------



## chithead

I would definitely run some Class D Soundstream Reference amps. Especially if they bring back the fins.  

And keep securement screws instead of the stupid plugs that some of the compact amps are using.


----------



## rton20s

The REF replacements?


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

rton20s said:


> The REF replacements?


Wouldn't be a bad amp design to copy, both internally and visually just ad some fins. 

Those amps are dead quite and solid and amps like that are what the REF line has to compete with and when they deliver about the same amount of power but in half the chassis size it make the final choice a no brainer.


----------



## rton20s

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Wouldn't be a bad amp design to copy, both internally and visually just ad some fins.


You say you like fins?


----------



## quality_sound

rton20s said:


> It also explains why the Arc Audio FD4150 is the best thing since sliced bread.


The FD line replaced the XXK line and actually IS better than the model it replaced. No one I know would say the XXK was "overpriced, outdated junk". The FD amps are great, just really, really big.


----------



## rton20s

quality_sound said:


> The FD line replaced the XXK line and actually IS better than the model it replaced. No one I know would say the XXK was "overpriced, outdated junk". The FD amps are great, just really, really big.


I never said that the FD line was bad. Someone, who is currently banned, was tossing around a whole lot of hyperbole with nothing to quantify it.  

I'm sure the FD would still be a great amp choice for the right install and price.


----------



## cajunner

I thought the Foose amps weren't there to replace anything, they were a separate design goal and were not up to the quality standards of the XXK series, in parts and build exactness?

Kind of how the Rubicon line from Soundstream ran alongside the Reference, it was not supposed to be a competition for the Reference, but a good line of product that met a slightly lower design goal/standard.


----------



## Victor_inox

chithead said:


> I would definitely run some Class D Soundstream Reference amps. Especially if they bring back the fins.
> 
> And keep securement screws instead of the stupid plugs that some of the compact amps are using.


I agree on plugs.


----------



## ChrisB

cajunner said:


> I thought the Foose amps weren't there to replace anything, they were a separate design goal and were not up to the quality standards of the XXK series, in parts and build exactness?
> 
> Kind of how the Rubicon line from Soundstream ran alongside the Reference, it was not supposed to be a competition for the Reference, but a good line of product that met a slightly lower design goal/standard.



Here, I thought the Foose Designs were built to be used in installs on Overhaulin' while selling a few to the fan base. Shows what I know...

PAS magazine seemed to like them: http://content.arcaudio.com/pdfs/reviews/product-reviews/arcaudio-prod-reviews-9.08.pdf 

It can be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the footprint of nearly 11" x 22", automatically rules it out! My MMATS HIFI-6150D should give me more power in approximately 10"x10".


----------



## trumpet

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Or Clarion's new XC amps, 6 channels in a 10x6x2 chassis.


Yes indeed.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

rton20s said:


> You say you like fins?


Not exactly what I was thinking but :laugh:.


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> I thought the Foose amps weren't there to replace anything, they were a separate design goal and were not up to the quality standards of the XXK series, in parts and build exactness?
> 
> Kind of how the Rubicon line from Soundstream ran alongside the Reference, it was not supposed to be a competition for the Reference, but a good line of product that met a slightly lower design goal/standard.


Nope. The Foose amps were designed from the get go as XXK replacements. They were sold concurrently until the XXK stock was gone, but they were the XXK replacements. 

The original Rubicons were the replacements for the Ref and were never sold at the same time as the original Refs. The Rubicons were not a lesser line by ANY stretch of the imagination. SS made a few changes to massively increase reliability which meant they made slightly less power but they were as good, or better sounding, than any amp SS made with the exception of the Class A amps (which were brought into the Rubicon line when the Rubicons came out) and possibly the original Davinci.


----------



## cajunner

quality_sound said:


> Nope. The Foose amps were designed from the get go as XXK replacements. They were sold concurrently until the XXK stock was gone, but they were the XXK replacements.
> 
> The original Rubicons were the replacements for the Ref and were never sold at the same time as the original Refs. The Rubicons were not a lesser line by ANY stretch of the imagination. SS made a few changes to massively increase reliability which meant they made slightly less power but they were as good, or better sounding, than any amp SS made with the exception of the Class A amps (which were brought into the Rubicon line when the Rubicons came out) and possibly the original Davinci.



nope, I mean that might have been what Arc was telling their dealers, but I read somewhere on the internet that the Foose design was just a spurious, or offshoot line that was to commemorate Chip Foose's design collaboration, like Polk Momo design.

The dirt on the Arc Audio Foose line? - Maxima Forums

information,


It's here!!! Arc Audio FD 4150, Foose


innuendo.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Wow, was offline a couple of days dealing w/ some personal stuff, and didn't expect to see this excitement.

I really liked the plain finned look on the refs, too much 'bling' out there now. Also thought cabling would be easier having them all along the same edge - although I never did get to try that.

Josh


----------



## chithead

No doubt, that brushed blue finish would be awesome!


----------



## vulgamore89

I'm pretty butthurt about PPI discontinuing the PC line as well. But I'm excited to see what they come out with in 2015. Hopefully when I decide to go 3 way I can find a 2 channel 
PC650 for my midbass. By that time though they might have the new ones out. Although I'd like to keep all my amps the same. I have a bit of OCD haha


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> The REF replacements?


Where did you get that picture?


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Where did you get that picture?


From my super secret sources.


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> From my super secret sources.


Lol, did you photoshop that yourself?


----------



## rton20s

I can neither confirm nor deny...


----------



## hot9dog

using the clarion 6 channel and making it blue with soundstream logo was a good idea!! it caught my attention...lol and it looks like it caught alot of others attention. ahahhahah


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> nope, I mean that might have been what Arc was telling their dealers, but I read somewhere on the internet that the Foose design was just a spurious, or offshoot line that was to commemorate Chip Foose's design collaboration, like Polk Momo design.
> 
> The dirt on the Arc Audio Foose line? - Maxima Forums
> 
> information,
> 
> 
> It's here!!! Arc Audio FD 4150, Foose
> 
> 
> innuendo.


I got my info from Fred, Brad, and Demetrios.


----------



## cajunner

quality_sound said:


> I got my info from Fred, Brad, and Demetrios.


****, ____, why didn't you just say so!


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah I thought the FD line was an off shoot, a side line too.


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> ****, ____, why didn't you just say so!


I have. Many times. That's where i ALWAYS get my Arc info. 







thehatedguy said:


> Yeah I thought the FD line was an off shoot, a side line too.


No sir. Though, with as good as the newer, smaller amps are they became unnecessary. People either went with the KARs or bumped up to the SEs. 


Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## BigMonster

SOOO...has anyone used the retroed Ref? How does it compare to original?


----------



## rton20s

BigMonster said:


> SOOO...has anyone used the retroed Ref? How does it compare to original?


SOOO...has anyone used the search function? How does it compare to asking open ended questions in marginally relevant threads?


----------



## BigMonster

Thanks for the troll, but if I really wanted that info I would've searched. Before this thread got crazy, couple people picked one up. Was just trying to get back talking about Ref amp that was discountined.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

They are very solid amps and truly where worthy of the Reference name. Though if you really want to know how they stack up against some higher end modern and old school take a look at captainobvious's blind test thread.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Ok, so back in the beginning of this thread [email protected] said that the TN's were now their top model, I was looking at the tn4.900 and suspiciously several sites (including soundstream) said they're not available now. Are they out of stock or are they being discontinued also?

Josh


----------



## rton20s

JoshHefnerX said:


> Ok, so back in the beginning of this thread [email protected] said that the TN's were now their top model, I was looking at the tn4.900 and suspiciously several sites (including soundstream) said they're not available now. Are they out of stock or are they being discontinued also?
> 
> Josh


Probably on the same slow boat as the PPI Phantoms. Maybe Ryan will chime in for a status update.


----------



## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> See thats the thing the perception of the TN and Phantom amps is that they are "mid-grade" however for those who have tried them know that they are not. They are intact a high quality amp that has high quality components. We just don't get the "hertz" money for them, which only benefits the end consumer. So again unless you have actually experienced these amps then you don't know their true potential.
> Also the day of the super inefficient surf boards are long gone, and the days of the ultra compact super efficient amps are here. Why would we invest a ton of money into a huge amplifier that cost a lot of money to build when we can build a 95% efficient class d amp that sounds just as good. Back in the day class d was terrible for sound quality, but the chips have come along way from then. Case in point Mosconi just released an amp that is 6"x6" and is $1299 with dsp built in. Granted at that price it won't sell in large quantities but its something to talk about and it will get people interested in their product.
> We just release our Stealth amplifiers days ago, made in Korea of the finest parts and sounds amazing, and yet it the size of a cellphone. And the best part is it retails for under $300, and they make real power. They aren't some glorified chip amp with bigger capacitors. They are a real amp with a real power supply, make good power and fit any where.


No offense but I have never heard any class D amp sound worth a damn. I have people around me that are always talking about how their JL systems sound great, but when I've heard them, I'm not impressed. I can always pick out flaws.

I've been dying for the days of the SS Reference line to come back and just when I discover they had, I'm now finding out they are no more... WTF!

I did have an online dealer tell me that though the current Reference line is discontinued, that a new Reference line was coming out sometime in August? I hope that is true and they aren't scrapping the whole thing all together. I miss the Reference line!


----------



## Pulse_GTO

gabbett1 said:


> No offense but I have never heard any class D amp sound worth a damn. I have people around me that are always talking about how their JL systems sound great, but when I've heard them, I'm not impressed. I can always pick out flaws.
> 
> I've been dying for the days of the SS Reference line to come back and just when I discover they had, I'm now finding out they are no more... WTF!
> 
> I did have an online dealer tell me that though the current Reference line is discontinued, that a new Reference line was coming out sometime in August? I hope that is true and they aren't scrapping the whole thing all together. I miss the Reference line!


You can still find a few for sale on amazon and newegg.


----------



## gabbett1

Pulse_GTO said:


> You can still find a few for sale on amazon and newegg.


True, but not the ones I want. I want the Ref1.1000. Plus, for some reason it's not the same for me to buy something that is no longer being made. Doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

To me, Soundstream isn't Soundstream without the Reference line... I really hope they bring it back. And not in the form of a class D... From what I saw of the line, it looked solid. Basically what I wish I had to chose from. Wish I didn't see they were back until now (basically too late...).

Also, anyone have any clue as to why the Ref1.500 and Ref1.1000 doesn't have RMS Power @ 4Ω, 14.4V listed???


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> Probably on the same slow boat as the PPI Phantoms. Maybe Ryan will chime in for a status update.


Yes both 4 channel TN and P amps are out of stock at the moment, but should be arriving soon. Unfortunately we are not this little company called JBL….sounds like they are eventually going to take off. 

They order 100k amps and we order 2k we get put on the back burner sometimes.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Unfortunately we are not this little company called JBL….sounds like they are eventually going to take off.


----------



## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> Yes both 4 channel TN and P amps are out of stock at the moment, but should be arriving soon. Unfortunately we are not this little company called JBL….sounds like they are eventually going to take off.
> 
> They order 100k amps and we order 2k we get put on the back burner sometimes.


Whats up with the reference line? Is it done or are you just coming out with new models?


----------



## [email protected]

gabbett1 said:


> Whats up with the reference line? Is it done or are you just coming out with new models?


We are working on something. Its coming along very slowly. It is going to be tuff to make something worth calling reference without it being super expensive. Todays Soundstream customer doesn't buy $1k amps anymore.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> We are working on something. Its coming along very slowly. It is going to be tuff to make something worth calling reference without it being super expensive. Todays Soundstream customer doesn't buy $1k amps anymore.


Whatever you build, whether you call it Reference or otherwise, please don't put another hideous spider on it.


----------



## hot9dog

I noticed the other day that the UK European market has a SOUNDSTREAM reference class d series. I saw the 5 channel model the other day, anodized blue .... is this just a repackaged nano series?


----------



## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> We are working on something. Its coming along very slowly. It is going to be tuff to make something worth calling reference without it being super expensive. Todays Soundstream customer doesn't buy $1k amps anymore.


I would. The reference line is all I want.


----------



## rton20s

hot9dog said:


> I noticed the other day that the UK European market has a SOUNDSTREAM reference class d series. I saw the 5 channel model the other day, anodized blue .... is this just a repackaged nano series?



That is just not right...


----------



## HardCoreDore

I remember when the New Ref Line first came out and reviews were very hard to come by. 

I scoured the internet for reviews on the 5 channel version, and maybe found one. I did find a few reviews on this forum and the CA forum, but they were for different models. 

I could just never bring myself to pull the trigger. Especially, since several of the reviews I read people were having immediate issues with bad caps and such. 

As a member of the old school it was just hard for me to trust SS again. I'm guessing a lot of other people felt the same way.


----------



## gabbett1

HardCoreDore said:


> I remember when the New Ref Line first came out and reviews were very hard to come by.
> 
> I scoured the internet for reviews on the 5 channel version, and maybe found one. I did find a few reviews on this forum and the CA forum, but they were for different models.
> 
> I could just never bring myself to pull the trigger. Especially, since several of the reviews I read people were having immediate issues with bad caps and such.
> 
> As a member of the old school it was just hard for me to trust SS again. I'm guessing a lot of other people felt the same way.


That's how I was when I heard they were back. I kept looking for reviews but had a hard time coming across anything. I'm so pissed that they are going away again. I love the blue ref's. Especially since I'm in the middle of building two classic cars. I'd have stocked up on the amps I wanted for my build.


----------



## quality_sound

[email protected] said:


> We are working on something. Its coming along very slowly. It is going to be tuff to make something worth calling reference without it being super expensive. Todays Soundstream customer doesn't buy $1k amps anymore.


They would if SS hadn't gone down the path they did. Stop underestimating people. If you give them product WORTHY of the name and price, people will pay it. Look at companies like mosconi and Brax. If all you offer is the garbage SS has been producing like ANYTHING with the Tarantula name, the Picasso Nano, etc, then no, people won't take the company seriously nor pay that much for even the References. If SS scrapped all that swap meet crap and build good quality gear for audiophiles and enthusiasts instead of catering to the lowest common denominator crowd the customers you say won't buy it will come back. I'm not saying it'll be easy or overnight, but it WILL happen, but only if the product is worthy.


----------



## rton20s

I have to agree with what quality_sound said. Are there products within the Epsilon lineup that I find a bit intriguing? Sure, the Phantoms and Tarantula Nanos seem decent for the price. I also see potential in the processor offerings. The Power Class 3 way set has me a little curious, but certainly not enough to drop my own coin to find out. But all of those items combined are only a small part of the total of Epsilon's offerings. 

You say you have to market to the customer that is willing to buy the Soundstream/Precision Power name. Yet, you guys can't keep up with demand on the products you do sale. How many times have people asked about the TN and Phantom amps being out of stock? I understand that this is a function of the size/value of the company. 

If you're going to be small, be small. If you can't do huge volume, don't. I don't think anyone is expecting you to become the next JBL, Alpine or Pioneer. Recognize who you are and the potential that comes with it. Develop some flagship models that are not only worth the money, but also a good value. 

Q_S mentioned Mosconi and Brax. Do I think you could successfully market a $3k SQ amp next year? I seriously doubt it. But, give us an amp that is truly as good or better than a JL Slash or HD, or an Alpine PDX at a better price point and you'd have a flood of new (and old) customers. Most of which would be talking about the brands returning to their glory days. (Even if it is with newer tech.)

And yes, I've probably beat you guys up as much as anyone about the spiders. And I understand it is a brand identification thing. That is part of why I keep saying to ditch it. Or at least relegate it to your very lowest "swap meet" lines, as Q_S put it. The spider represents a different, less desirable era of Soundstream. At least in my mind. It isn't just about the spider. Heck, I'm excited about an upcoming brand that uses an amphibian as their logo/mascot.


----------



## HardCoreDore

gabbett1 said:


> That's how I was when I heard they were back. I kept looking for reviews but had a hard time coming across anything. I'm so pissed that they are going away again. I love the blue ref's. Especially since I'm in the middle of building two classic cars. I'd have stocked up on the amps I wanted for my build.


There are some refs still available at Amazon and Sonic Electronics. You'd still get a warranty. 

I just wonder how many people were like you and I? I loved the old SS refs and if I'd known for sure that they were close to the same performance I would have bought 1 or 2.


----------



## gabbett1

HardCoreDore said:


> There are some refs still available at Amazon and Sonic Electronics. You'd still get a warranty.
> 
> I just wonder how many people were like you and I? I loved the old SS refs and if I'd known for sure that they were close to the same performance I would have bought 1 or 2.


I bought some from Amazon. Soundstream will give a warranty for sales off of Amazon? If so, that's awesome. I wasn't expecting to get any at all.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Now that I think about it, probably not amazon. You could call to check though. However I think Sonic is licensed.


----------



## [email protected]

hot9dog said:


> I noticed the other day that the UK European market has a SOUNDSTREAM reference class d series. I saw the 5 channel model the other day, anodized blue .... is this just a repackaged nano series?


That is an amp we make for export only, based on the Picasso Nano with a few little tweaks.


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> That is just not right...


Explain to me what wrong with it.....?

This is amp that out international customers wanted so that they didn't have to compete with Amazon and eBay and the rest of the internet to give there people something different. Its business and it is a great decision. You guys here in the US may not understand and of course wouldn't get it because this is a business as well as a hobby. But for a Company as big as us we have to make what our customers want. We make all kinds of stuff for other countries that would never be seen here.....every MAJOR manufacture does this. Including the big box guys.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Explain to me what wrong with it.....?
> 
> This is amp that out international customers wanted so that they didn't have to compete with Amazon and eBay and the rest of the internet to give there people something different. Its business and it is a great decision. You guys here in the US may not understand and of course wouldn't get it because this is a business as well as a hobby. But for a Company as big as us we have to make what our customers want. We make all kinds of stuff for other countries that would never be seen here.....every MAJOR manufacture does this. Including the big box guys.


My comment was in regard to slapping the once revered Soundstream Reference name and some dressed up cosmetics onto a lower end amp from your lineup. An amp that, if I am not mistaken, is also available from you even lower end Power Acoustik brand. 

Now, if you want to clarify what "little tweaks" make the Soundstream Reference Micros on par original Soundstream amps I will gladly retract my comment. As it is, it appears you are marketing a lower quality amp than your TNs as a "Reference" quality amp. 

Having said that, I do understand that business is business. Every market is different. You and I both understand that what might go over with one country/demographic would never fly in another. And as a company that MUST remain profitable, you have to do what you have to do. We just don't have to like it. 

I hope you understand that any and all comments I have made have been because I want to see the best from the Epsilon brands. A revival of PPI and SS to what they once were. The last thing any of us want is a degredation of the brand or a dilution of the products to the point that the names mean nothing.


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> My comment was in regard to slapping the once revered Soundstream Reference name and some dressed up cosmetics onto a lower end amp from your lineup. An amp that, if I am not mistaken, is also available from you even lower end Power Acoustik brand.
> 
> Now, if you want to clarify what "little tweaks" make the Soundstream Reference Micros on par original Soundstream amps I will gladly retract my comment. As it is, it appears you are marketing a lower quality amp than your TNs as a "Reference" quality amp.
> 
> Having said that, I do understand that business is business. Every market is different. You and I both understand that what might go over with one country/demographic would never fly in another. And as a company that MUST remain profitable, you have to do what you have to do. We just don't have to like it.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you understand that any and all comments I have made have been because I want to see the best from the Epsilon brands. A revival of PPI and SS to what they once were. The last thing any of us want is a degredation of the brand or a dilution of the products to the point that the names mean nothing.



Clearly you have never witness the Picasso Nano. Not a cheap or lower end amp at all...in fact I use them in my SS Show car. They have slowly become our best selling amplifier based on Sound Quality and price. They are also not some cheap piece of crap made in China, they are Korean and in factory that only builds for us. It has our own designed PCB.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Clearly you have never witness the Picasso Nano. Not a cheap or lower end amp at all...in fact I use them in my SS Show car. They have slowly become our best selling amplifier based on Sound Quality and price. They are also not some cheap piece of crap made in China, they are Korean and in factory that only builds for us. It has our own designed PCB.


"Lower end" was probably the wrong choice of words. It is apparent that Epsilon's goal is to deliver a quality product at a better price point than the competition. But lower tier certainly remains true, does it not? Disregarding the other amps in your lineup, the former Reference line was your top tier, the Tarantula Nanos were below that and the Picasso Nanos were below that. Is this not the case? 

By your implication, the Picasso Nanos are on par with the recently discontinued Reference amp? If so, the only reason to choose the more expensive Tarantula Nanos over the Picasso Nanos would be for the potential ~+1.5 dB increase in output or the onboard crossover? Or perhaps the need to aesthetically match a higher output mono amp? 

I'm just trying to understand how *YOU* as a representative of Soundstream see your own lineup. 

We both know that "best selling" doesn't equate to sound quality _or_ build quality. It just means best selling. And where an amp is made means nothing to me. You can build amazing equipment in China and absolute junk in the US. Nice to know you have a proprietary PCB design though. 

If it isn't delving to deep into proprietary information, it would be interesting to know what distinguishes a RFM600.4D from a PN4-520D from a i520.4 from a RZ4-2000D? It seems pretty apparent that they are sharing boards, but I'd still like to know if the "little tweaks" are more than cosmetic.


----------



## Lanson

I sure as hell like the look of the SS Reference Micro though.

I'd own those for sure.


----------



## HardCoreDore

fourthmeal said:


> I sure as hell like the look of the SS Reference Micro though.
> 
> I'd own those for sure.



Boo! I'd buy an amp that looked like a tampax box wrapped in barbed wire as long as it sounded amazing. Looks on the outside shouldn't mean anything. Now if it has a big plexi window and beautiful internals... that's another story. 

Case in point:


----------



## gabbett1

HardCoreDore said:


> Boo! I'd buy an amp that looked like a tampax box wrapped in barbed wire as long as it sounded amazing. Looks on the outside shouldn't mean anything. Now if it has a big plexi window and beautiful internals... that's another story.
> 
> Case in point:


What amp is that?


----------



## audiorailroad

PG 2125 if I had to guess one of the sexiest amps ever made right there


----------



## HardCoreDore

It's always been one of my favorites as well. It's either a PG MS2125 or MS2250. Both amps can fit under that fan shroud. 

My point is I'm a fan of function over form. The way an amp LOOKS is mostly marketing. This amp was designed as a no compromise sq amp, and due to that quality, it's also happens to be very beautiful to look at.


----------



## gabbett1

Any of you have experience with TRU?

:: TRU Technology ::


----------



## [email protected]

gabbett1 said:


> I bought some from Amazon. Soundstream will give a warranty for sales off of Amazon? If so, that's awesome. I wasn't expecting to get any at all.


Yes we would but it would be repair only as we have no more in stock. If your looking for a few REF1.500 I know that woofersect.com has some. There are a few 2 channels left.


----------



## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> Yes we would but it would be repair only as we have no more in stock. If your looking for a few REF1.500 I know that woofersect.com has some. There are a few 2 channels left.


I've actually bought quite a few amps now. That way I have options and backups for my systems.


----------



## gabbett1

How are Soundstream's component speakers? If I went with the RC.6 Components, what would be a good match for rears?


----------



## HardCoreDore

gabbett1 said:


> How are Soundstream's component speakers? If I went with the RC.6 Components, what would be a good match for rears?


Greatest respect to all present company... but if you want comps that sound good look elsewhere. SS used to make some absolutely amazing component sets back in the day. Not so much today.


----------



## SilkySlim

So was it because of lack of sales?


----------



## [email protected]

gabbett1 said:


> How are Soundstream's component speakers? If I went with the RC.6 Components, what would be a good match for rears?


I run the RC.6 in my SS show Jeep and they sound amazing, built from the ground up by one of the most well respected audio engineers in the business....you guys may know him as the inventor of the stroker. So before you knock em you better try em. I can say this, its as unique as our PPI 3 way and power handling is off the chart. They can keep up with any multi sub system and they just don't give up. I have a 4 Door JK and with the top off or on they still sound awesome.


----------



## [email protected]

Let me ask you HardCoreDore have you listened to the RC6? Because these are about the closet we have gotten to the Exact and thats a hard thing to do.


----------



## HardCoreDore

[email protected] said:


> Let me ask you HardCoreDore have you listened to the RC6? Because these are about the closet we have gotten to the Exact and thats a hard thing to do.


I'll admit I haven't heard them. However, if they are so good then why isn't everyone on this board falling all over themselves get a pair?


----------



## gabbett1

HardCoreDore said:


> I'll admit I haven't heard them. However, if they are so good then why isn't everyone on this board falling all over themselves get a pair?


Probably the same reason people weren't falling all over themselves to get a new Reference amp. Everyone's memory is living in the past. I deal with a lot of people that knock stuff that have never even tried them and it gets irritating. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just empathizing with Ryan. I know how it is and it's frustrating. Unfortunately that's the hand Soundstream has to play with right now. Their brand was heavily tarnished for the first few years after things were no longer "Made in the USA". It's not easy to climb back from that.


----------



## HardCoreDore

gabbett1 said:


> Probably the same reason people weren't falling all over themselves to get a new Reference amp. Everyone's memory is living in the past. I deal with a lot of people that knock stuff that have never even tried them and it gets irritating. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just empathizing with Ryan. I know how it is and it's frustrating. Unfortunately that's the hand Soundstream has to play with right now. Their brand was heavily tarnished for the first few years after things were no longer "Made in the USA". It's not easy to climb back from that.


Unfortunately, I really haven't heard jack **** about SS's new component sets. Have you? This forum and others like it are the place I come to find out who is making the true audiophile type equipment today. 

In years past there were industry magazines that dealt with that very topic in a much more efficient manner. However, we have what we have; and I haven't heard anything about SS's new component sets being world beaters. 

In fact the only place I've heard incredible things about their new component sets, is from... wait for it... Soundstream... 

Soundstream looked to be heading in the right direction with the new Ref amps, but alas they weren't willing to stay the course. It's just poor management and wasted resources if you ask me.


----------



## gabbett1

HardCoreDore said:


> Unfortunately, I really haven't heard jack **** about SS's new component sets. Have you? This forum and others like it are the place I come to find out who is making the true audiophile type equipment today.
> 
> In years past there were industry magazines that dealt with that very topic in a much more efficient manner. However, we have what we have; and I haven't heard anything about SS's new component sets being world beaters.
> 
> In fact the only place I've heard incredible things about their new component sets, is from... wait for it... Soundstream...
> 
> Soundstream looked to be heading in the right direction with the new Ref amps, but alas they weren't willing to stay the course. It's just poor management and wasted resources if you ask me.


It is extremely disappointing that they dumped the line already. I think that it would catch on eventually but it takes a really long time to turn around a bad reputation.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

I would love to see Epsilon come out with a high power class d line of amps to compete with Zed and Mmatts. Both of those brands have a 6ch amp that does 150x6, and I'm sure a lot of us on here would be all over a high power multi channel amp that's at a price a lot of people can afford but still be reliable over time and have a nice clean output. Even a couple staggered amps would be great to have. I understand that business is business but if you can come up with what I've described you just might have a winner.


----------



## [email protected]

We do its called X3......
X3.71 5180 @1ohm
X3.60 3180 @1ohm
X3.2K4 250x4 @4ohm, 600x4 @1ohm
All Korean Made.


----------



## [email protected]

gabbett1 said:


> It is extremely disappointing that they dumped the line already. I think that it would catch on eventually but it takes a really long time to turn around a bad reputation.


Already....? Its been around for 5 years. If it was so awesome then why did it take us giving them away to sell them. That amps was one of the better amps we have made in the last 10 years however our customers perception of what is high-end has changed. Not something I dig at all in fact I am very disappointed that it had to come to that but if we don't change with the market then we get left behind, and its more profitable to be a leader and not a follower. We are working on some things that will be worthy of the Reference name and when its right we will bring it out. We are taking our time so we don't come out with some dud that sucks and no one wants and then they really go out and find something else. Its just business and some times business gets in the way of our hobbies. For some this is a hobby and for us its a business and we have our bottom line to take care of. I understand a lot of people don't like to hear that but it is what it is.


----------



## rton20s

What HillbillySQ mentioned were these...

Zed Leviathan III: 190w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 9.7" x 16.14" x 2.1" - $1,000









MMATS HiFi-6150D: 150w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 9.5" 10.0" x 2.2" - $1,200









The industry seems to be heading in this direction...

Focal FPD 900.6: 150w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 7.38" x 13.88" x 2.0" - $900









Arc XDIv2 1200.6: 150w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 6.27" x 13.0" x 2.17" - $780









You offered up this as the Soundstream alternative...

Soundstream X3.2K4: 250w x 4 @ 4 Ohms; 11.5" x 15.75" x 2.5" - $660









A bit of an apples and oranges comparison, don't you think? Sure, you're making 30% more power per channel than the most powerful of the 6 channels, but you're two channels shy. The X3 is also has a larger footprint than any of those 6 channels. 

I'm not saying that the X3 is a bad amp, or that it isn't worth consideration if you want a powerful Class D 4 channel. But, I certainly do not see it as competition for the latest crop of powerful 6 channel amps that hit the market. 

I will say with you that I agree completely that people should not be complaining about the end of production of the REF amps. If that is what people wanted, they should have bought them. They didn't. 

The industry is changing, as evidenced by the examples listed above. If the REF line goes full class D, I'm ok with that. So long as the build quality and performance truly live up to the name. And let's be honest... the price is going to have to blow the competition out of the water. I think it is a wise choice on Epsilon's part to re-imagine what the name "Reference" means for Soundstream.


----------



## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> Already....? Its been around for 5 years. If it was so awesome then why did it take us giving them away to sell them. That amps was one of the better amps we have made in the last 10 years however our customers perception of what is high-end has changed. Not something I dig at all in fact I am very disappointed that it had to come to that but if we don't change with the market then we get left behind, and its more profitable to be a leader and not a follower. We are working on some things that will be worthy of the Reference name and when its right we will bring it out. We are taking our time so we don't come out with some dud that sucks and no one wants and then they really go out and find something else. Its just business and some times business gets in the way of our hobbies. For some this is a hobby and for us its a business and we have our bottom line to take care of. I understand a lot of people don't like to hear that but it is what it is.


I understand that it's been 5 years, but I am just now hearing about them. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that loved the old reference lines that didn't even know these came out, simply because they stopped following the Soundstream line once it went down hill (much like I did). Then there are going to be those that simply won't believe that they are any good until someone proves it to them. I searched and searched for reviews on these amps and found one. One friggin review in 5 years of release? It's going to take more than 5 years for all of these people to make the choice to come back to Soundstream. I would have done it, but now you guys aren't making the line anymore. I would have bought at least 5-6 of these amps from you guys. 

It sucks, but public opinion tends to rule devoid of facts. Pretty much everyone I know that do high end systems think that Soundstream doesn't make anything quality anymore. None of them have tried the new stuff, but they have a perception of what Soundstream has become and have written them off. The only way to be able to break that is to stay the course. What would have happened if you guys continued to make a couple of the reference amps instead of dumping the whole line? I obviously don't know because I don't have your market data but I find it very hard to believe that a quality product won't sell to the right people. Maybe you plan for lower sales volumes. I don't know. I just hate to see them go because I have a soft spot for those blue amps (as long as they are of superior quality).


----------



## gabbett1

*"The industry is changing, as evidenced by the examples listed above. If the REF line goes full class D, I'm ok with that. So long as the build quality and performance truly live up to the name. And let's be honest... the price is going to have to blow the competition out of the water. I think it is a wise choice on Epsilon's part to re-imagine what the name "Reference" means for Soundstream. "*

I really hope a class D doesn't get termed a Reference amp. If it does I'll completely lose my faith in good quality sound. I know a lot of people think that class D can be good quality sound but I'm not buying it. I have heard all about how great JL's amps are blah blah blah, but every system I've heard them in sounds like dog ****. Maybe my ears are just more discerning than most, but I can't stand the sound of a class D for mids and highs. I'll seek out a much more expensive class AB amp till the day I die.


----------



## rton20s

gabbett1 said:


> Maybe my ears are just more discerning than most...


That was all I needed to read.


----------



## gabbett1

rton20s said:


> That was all I needed to read.


Please explain. I was simply stating that I don't understand why people rave about amps that I can't stand to hear. What was wrong with how I phrased that?


----------



## rton20s

I've heard several world class car audio installs that use class D amplifier topology exclusively. There was nothing lacking, nothing harsh, nothing to detract or add to the music. Then again, I know I don't have the most discerning ears. Apparently, the trained judges at competitions don't either. 










Seriously though, your experience is your own. If all I had heard were bad class D installs, I would probably have the same opinion. I encourage you to demo more. Listen to class D designs from lots of different manufacturers, and in different installations.


----------



## gabbett1

rton20s said:


> I've heard several world class car audio installs that use class D amplifier topology exclusively. There was nothing lacking, nothing harsh, nothing to detract or add to the music. Then again, I know I don't have the most discerning ears. Apparently, the trained judges at competitions don't either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though, your experience is your own. If all I had heard were bad class D installs, I would probably have the same opinion. I encourage you to demo more. Listen to class D designs from lots of different manufacturers, and in different installations.


Maybe class D can sound good. But I then have to wonder why anyone makes a class AB amp anymore then. If the sound quality is just as good, had much better efficiency and is cheaper, why build a class AB ever again? It appears to me that there has to be a difference somewhere since the highest end amps are still class A or AB that I have seen.


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> What HillbillySQ mentioned were these...
> 
> Zed Leviathan III: 190w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 9.7" x 16.14" x 2.1" - $1,000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MMATS HiFi-6150D: 150w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 9.5" 10.0" x 2.2" - $1,200
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The industry seems to be heading in this direction...
> 
> Focal FPD 900.6: 150w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 7.38" x 13.88" x 2.0" - $900
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arc XDIv2 1200.6: 150w x 6 @ 4 Ohms; 6.27" x 13.0" x 2.17" - $780
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You offered up this as the Soundstream alternative...
> 
> Soundstream X3.2K4: 250w x 4 @ 4 Ohms; 11.5" x 15.75" x 2.5" - $660
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A bit of an apples and oranges comparison, don't you think? Sure, you're making 30% more power per channel than the most powerful of the 6 channels, but you're two channels shy. The X3 is also has a larger footprint than any of those 6 channels.
> 
> I'm not saying that the X3 is a bad amp, or that it isn't worth consideration if you want a powerful Class D 4 channel. But, I certainly do not see it as competition for the latest crop of powerful 6 channel amps that hit the market.
> 
> I will say with you that I agree completely that people should not be complaining about the end of production of the REF amps. If that is what people wanted, they should have bought them. They didn't.
> 
> The industry is changing, as evidenced by the examples listed above. If the REF line goes full class D, I'm ok with that. So long as the build quality and performance truly live up to the name. And let's be honest... the price is going to have to blow the competition out of the water. I think it is a wise choice on Epsilon's part to re-imagine what the name "Reference" means for Soundstream.


First off NO ONE uses 6 channel amps anymore. Those that do are few and far, and that is why we discontinued ours. The X3.2K4 wasn't built for the US anyways because no one uses that much juice these days. It sells like crazy in South America where the "Pro Audio" craze is going off. SS sells more Pro Audio product than any other company in South America. Also I have been to many competitions where Soundstream continues to mop up at every event than any other company out there. Team Epsilon is the winningest Team in car audio , so please someone argue with me again why our stuff is no good. Tell that to the IASCA, MECA judges at Spring Break where we win more 1st place trophies that anyone even Arc. Arc is AWESOME in Extreme SQ, SQL but thats pretty much it.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> First off NO ONE uses 6 channel amps anymore.


<looks at sig diagram>
<looks at Ryan's post>
<looks at sig diagram>
<looks at Ryan's post>
:uhoh2:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/161519-arc-audio-xdi-1200-6-review.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/160462-2013-prius-sq-build-feat-review-two-new-products-arc-am-morel.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/163547-6ch-amp.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/160898-6-ch-amp-recommendation-3-way-active-phd.html#post2062964

But, yes, I understand that DIYMA is a subset of a subset of the industry in general. You have to go where the money is. 

Still, even looking at your X3 4 channel amp compared to other high output class D amps, it is quite large. Even taking into account the greater output. Built for the US or not, it is sold here correct? You know better than any of us what Epsilon's markets are. There are lots of us watching to see what you guys have planned next. You've certainly been creating plenty of buzz with your processors, ultra compact class Ds and even the new PPI 3 way component set.


----------



## Hi-FiDelity

All I can say is I'm looking forward to seeing what the replacements for the REF and Power Class are and I hope they can live up to there predecessors.


----------



## Mike Bober

I got my ref amps i wanted before the end....so glad i did


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

It's a niche market but I know plenty of people running a ton of juice in their system. If there were more high power 6ch amps to choose from I'm sure they would use them instead of bridging the average 4ch amp. Hell I'm running around 1000rms to my 2-way active frontstage and only about 400rms to the sub. I know plenty of other people running similar power on their fronts. We do this to get the high output dynamics we need without having to worry about the amp running out of steam. When I get to the point I can throw a little more money at car audio I'll likely go with that Mmatts 6ch and a matching 2ch to bridge to my 8" Ground Zero sub. If Ground Zero comes out with what I want in a case that will fit where I need to put it I'll stick with them. Again, I realize big power amps (frontstage especially) is a niche market so I fully understand why Epsilon doesn't cater to that market. And most cars these days don't have the alternator to handle much more than what's needed to run the car anyway unless that alternator gets upgraded with something that can. 

Gabbett, it could very well be your brain telling you how a system is sounding. It happens to all of us at some point if we have a low opinion of something contributing to the sound. These days I don't give a crap what speakers, amps, or source unit someone is running. The end result is what matters. I will say though that JL got it right with their HD amps. I've heard Zed hit the nail too and tricked a few a/b lifers into thinking it was a/b while some of the a/b amps known for "sounding great" were sounding more like a class d amp to them. Kinda makes you think huh


----------



## [email protected]

We build plenty of high powered amps, Tarantula Nano is a high powered class d and is a great seller for us. The general consumer doesn't use that much juice, even the JL guys and the Alpine guys don't need that much power. With everything getting more and more efficient power isn't the issue.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Better to have big power and not need it. Now that I think about it with the conversion to 3-way front a pair of high power 4ch amps would be a better choice anyway. When I was dead-set on 2-way plus sub a big 6ch really would have been the perfect solution. Hopefully I won't have to amp shop for quite some time but the TN would be a great option on the cheap. I hope unbridging my Mosconi going from around 250rms to each 2" Scanspeak widebander to around 70rms to each (8 ohm) won't be a disappointment. They're only 80db efficient but PERFECT in the way they sound. I REALLY don't want to unbridge this original pdx and run tweeters off of it since that's where I've heard that generation of pdx suffered. Midbass would be fine on the birthed 112rms per channel.


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## HardCoreDore

I honestly thought the big Zed's were class a/b before this thread. I knew the micro was class d obviously, but the Leviathan? I actually went and looked it up b/c I couldn't believe it. I guess if Mantz believes in class D, I may have to give the higher end ones another shot. 

That being said every full range class D I've heard up to this point lacked warmth. The accuracy is there, but imo they just don't sound good when run full range. 

As far as no one using 6 channel amps, I beg to differ. I look for multi channel amps due to the ease of installation and smaller footprint. The last few systems I've installed had either 5 or 6 channel amps.


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## gabbett1

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Gabbett, it could very well be your brain telling you how a system is sounding. It happens to all of us at some point if we have a low opinion of something contributing to the sound. These days I don't give a crap what speakers, amps, or source unit someone is running. The end result is what matters. I will say though that JL got it right with their HD amps. I've heard Zed hit the nail too and tricked a few a/b lifers into thinking it was a/b while some of the a/b amps known for "sounding great" were sounding more like a class d amp to them. Kinda makes you think huh


Problem is, I hear the systems before I know what's in them. So I don't see how my brain is making me hear something based on a certain product. I hear it, and then I ask what is being used. Once I hear the specs there is an ah ha moment for me... every time.


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## HardCoreDore

[email protected] said:


> First off NO ONE uses 6 channel amps anymore. Those that do are few and far, and that is why we discontinued ours. The X3.2K4 wasn't built for the US anyways because no one uses that much juice these days. It sells like crazy in South America where the "Pro Audio" craze is going off. SS sells more Pro Audio product than any other company in South America. Also I have been to many competitions where Soundstream continues to mop up at every event than any other company out there. Team Epsilon is the winningest Team in car audio , so please someone argue with me again why our stuff is no good. Tell that to the IASCA, MECA judges at Spring Break where we win more 1st place trophies that anyone even Arc. Arc is AWESOME in Extreme SQ, SQL but thats pretty much it.


It's also easy to gloat about trophies won at competitions, but competition isn't out here in the real world. 

I unfortunately don't have a virtually unlimited show car budget for my ride. Completely stripping a car for damping application is not always feasible when your car is your only vehicle. The same applies to custom fiberglass work, and box building. 

All I'm trying to say is there's a lot of,blood, sweat, and tears in those show cars that the average Joe like me just can't achieve (I could if I had the time and money). 

So in closing, show car wins don't mean a lot to me. Listening tests by average end users like myself, do.


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## hot9dog

To answer ryans comments about NOBODY looking for 6 channel amps..... i am in the market and looking for a 6 channel amp. I am SOMEBODY. ... and considering i am looking into the possibility of powering your new 3 ways with said amp..... makes me feel like an idiot as a consumer now. As i read thru this thread, im astonished at the potential customer base you have here- yet epsilon does nothing to find an avenue to make money off of it. The potential customers are TELLING the company what they want.... but nobody is listening. I know companies that would KILL for that kind of brand loyalty! ! Im sorry ryan, im not picking on you but epsilon is missing the big picture here. I dont need a company rep to tell me what to buy, im an educated consumer... i know what i want. I want nothing to do with epsilon products now.


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## truckerfte

A few years ago, I showed up at a G2G at Aho's. At the time I was living in Amarillo. I made a crack about being the only sq guy back home. Someone looked at me(lorin I think) and said not to feel bad. Because the entire metro OKC sq market was present at that meet( Hillbilly, iirc you were there too.)there were maybe 10 of us, and a couple of those were out of towners like me. 

We are barely a spec on epsilon's windshield. If says a lot that Ryan is even on here. But ultimately, we aren't the market. I remember Grizz saying something about a large amount of HRU amps sitting around, that no one seemed to care about until they went away. Big companies can't afford inventory sitting in a warehouse. They have to build large quantities of **** that sells. 

The average buyer just isn't into what we are. A guy Im building a set up for only cares that its "loud as ****". I'm not wasting my time trying to convince him otherwise. I put up some subs on cl the other day. Every response started off with" do dem subz hit harrd dawg?" "How hard dem subz hit bro?" ". "How loud are those subs?". And those are quotes, including spelling. 

These are the guys spending money. For every thousand of them, there is only one of us.


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## hot9dog

I totally understand the whole "its where the market is right now" thing . The spl consumer is the majority customer right now... i get that. But dont try to be a kool-aid saleman in napa valley and then wonder why nobody is buying your product.


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## truckerfte

They didn't wonder why it isn't selling. They saw that it isn't, dumped the kool aid, and ordered the vintners to work on more wine varieties. 

Its like you are walking into a wine store and wondering why they don't stock your favorite kool aid flavor


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## HardCoreDore

hot9dog said:


> I totally understand the whole "its where the market is right now" thing . The spl consumer is the majority customer right now... i get that. But dont try to be a kool-aid saleman in napa valley and then wonder why nobody is buying your product.


Excellent observation. The thing that worries me though, is that in the future there may no longer be a SQ option to for the consumer. 

When I was introduced to car audio at 16 I was a bass-head. I changed course pretty quickly at a local shop that specialized in high end car audio. 

The SPL side of car audio gets boring quick. Most kids who get into it, are over it as quickly as they start. Just look at CL and see all the ads for "Like New: Subz and amplifier". 

This can't be a way to run an Industry. If your only target demo is males between the ages of 16 and 21, how will you sustain growth? What if it's suddenly not cool to drive around annoying other drivers? How will you retain ANY customers without products they want to buy?


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## [email protected]

Well it looks like you haven't taken a look at any of our product lately based on your "observations" of our so called subpar product. We actually don't cater to the Bass-Head at all anymore, as the market for $1k subs and $3k 15kwatt amps don't exist anymore. It was fun while it lasted but that is just not our market. If you look at the big 4 they don't either, the business is all about the best bang for your buck and when it comes to that we excel over every other name brand. We give you some of the best speakers and subs at a price point that anyone can enjoy and thats just fact. Since you haven't even listened to them you really shouldn't judge. Don't get me wrong I make big subs and big'ol amps but I only make a couple. We actually as a company (epsilon) dominate most of the sq arena, just go to spring break or world finals where we have more trophies than any other manufacturer. I make a $500 3-way that blows away any set in that range let alone 2-3-4k set. Don't believe me read the reviews they are everywhere .


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## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> I make a $500 3-way that blows away any set in that range let alone 2-3-4k set. Don't believe me read the reviews they are everywhere .


Are you talking about component 3 ways? Where are they? You think they compare to Dynaudio? Those are probably some of my favorite components.


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## 1fishman

[email protected] said:


> *First off NO ONE uses 6 channel amps anymore. Those that do are few and far, and that is why we discontinued ours.*
> 
> _The X3.2K4 wasn't built for the US anyways because no one uses that much juice these days. It sells like crazy in South America where the "Pro Audio" craze is going off. SS sells more Pro Audio product than any other company in South America. Also I have been to many competitions where Soundstream continues to mop up at every event than any other company out there. Team Epsilon is the winningest Team in car audio , so please someone argue with me again why our stuff is no good. Tell that to the IASCA, MECA judges at Spring Break where we win more 1st place trophies that anyone even Arc. Arc is AWESOME in Extreme SQ, SQL but thats pretty much it._


With the new smaller and more powerful 6 channels amps,(same power as their 4 channel amp) They're becoming a practical option to the 5 channel amp. And if priced right could even make a big dent even into the 4 channel market.

As i look for a new amp i certainly have to look at the value of the ARC audio XDi V2 1200.6, The flexibility, the power, the size, makes it harder for a value orientated customer to buy a 4 channel amp, and forget about considering there 5 channel anymore. 
The XDi V2 1200.6 is 62% more than 4 channel. If the 6 channels could cost closer to 30% -40% more, they could dominate the market. It's only 14% more than their 5 channel.

As the trend continues to switch to quality Class Ds, it seems to me that it would be premature to right off the 6 channel in today's market. Especially with your higher end products.


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## JoshHefnerX

Hey Ryan, just bought some tarantula nano amps. the 4.900s said on the packaging that they included 0ga reducers. None had them in the box that I can find. Is that a misprint on the box or are mine missing?

Josh


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## HardCoreDore

JoshHefnerX said:


> Hey Ryan, just bought some tarantula nano amps. the 4.900s said on the packaging that they included 0ga reducers. None had them in the box that I can find. Is that a misprint on the box or are mine missing?
> 
> Josh


Sending a PM to Ryan is probably the best way to get an answer quickly, but thanks for posting this anyway. 

I hope you get some help for your problem.


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## [email protected]

HardCoreDore said:


> Sending a PM to Ryan is probably the best way to get an answer quickly, but thanks for posting this anyway.
> 
> I hope you get some help for your problem.


Hey there email me at [email protected] and give me your address and I will send you one. The factory screwed up and they were supposed to just change to 0ga terminals and not even include the reducer, and what do ya know they forgot the damn reducer. Sorry for the inconvenience.


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## JoshHefnerX

Just wanted to report back here, Ryan's a stand up guy, and took care of me!

Josh


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## [email protected]

Thanks Josh


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## Dspencer

timberwolf said:


> Linear Power is doing it all here. Their boards are designed by the same old LP engineer, and the amps are outstanding. When the sound is there, not the marketing, then the amps sell. You can't deny what you hear.


No offense, but I'm glad my Lexus IS350 isn't being designed by the same old engineer...

There's this thing called progress. I'll take the technological improvements over the old ANY DAY! 

If older engineers cannot keep up with the times, they need to retire...

What you said makes me feel like going and buying a Linear Power amp would be like going and buying a 20 year old Lexus they kept in storage to finally release now...No sir, the new Lexus will run circles around it...

Do you get your mobile phones from the same old designer of the briefcase phone from 30 years ago? I hope not! Unless he's kept up with the times and is the designer of the new iPhones and top Droid phones!


----------



## gabbett1

Dspencer said:


> No offense, but I'm glad my Lexus IS350 isn't being designed by the same old engineer...
> 
> There's this thing called progress. I'll take the technological improvements over the old ANY DAY!
> 
> If older engineers cannot keep up with the times, they need to retire...
> 
> What you said makes me feel like going and buying a Linear Power amp would be like going and buying a 20 year old Lexus they kept in storage to finally release now...No sir, the new Lexus will run circles around it...
> 
> Do you get your mobile phones from the same old designer of the briefcase phone from 30 years ago? I hope not! Unless he's kept up with the times and is the designer of the new iPhones and top Droid phones!


Why assume that the same old engineer is unable to advance with the times?


----------



## HardCoreDore

Dspencer said:


> No offense, but I'm glad my Lexus IS350 isn't being designed by the same old engineer...
> 
> There's this thing called progress. I'll take the technological improvements over the old ANY DAY!
> 
> If older engineers cannot keep up with the times, they need to retire...
> 
> What you said makes me feel like going and buying a Linear Power amp would be like going and buying a 20 year old Lexus they kept in storage to finally release now...No sir, the new Lexus will run circles around it...
> 
> Do you get your mobile phones from the same old designer of the briefcase phone from 30 years ago? I hope not! Unless he's kept up with the times and is the designer of the new iPhones and top Droid phones!


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're 25 or under. If I'm wrong I apologize. However, if you were involved in car audio during it's heyday, you would understand that said progression in our industry has only moved towards profits and a lower cost production. 

I'm no communist, and have no problem with companies making money, but not to the detriment of the product.

The Lexus of today vs the Lexus of 20 years ago, is very close if not better in quality. This is not the case with car audio industry wide. Yes, there are exceptions thank God. 

Therefore, your argument is moot.


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## Dspencer

gabbett1 said:


> Why assume that the same old engineer is unable to advance with the times?


No assumption - was simply making a comment to the now banned Timberwolf. He was touting that Linear Power is the best BECAUSE of the "same old engineer." Based on his other posts, I came to believe he thinks older is better - a common misconception of those stuck in the lost land of nostalgia.


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## Dspencer

HardCoreDore said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're 25 or under. If I'm wrong I apologize. However, if you were involved in car audio during it's heyday, you would understand that said progression in our industry has only moved towards profits and a lower cost production.
> 
> I'm no communist, and have no problem with companies making money, but not to the detriment of the product.
> 
> The Lexus of today vs the Lexus of 20 years ago, is very close if not better in quality. This is not the case with car audio industry wide. Yes, there are exceptions thank God.
> 
> Therefore, your argument is moot.


No, I'm 35, have a wife and 2 children, and owned the original Soundstream Reference amps in my systems back in my teens and early 20's and thought they were AMAZING!! 

I also had such system in a very nice Nissan 240sx that could turn on a dime and was a real pleasure to drive.

That being said, the technology has improved - I'm glad my newer Lexus has better tech than that old Nissan (or the Lexus models back then). I'm glad my phone isn't the size of a 2 liter bottle... lol 

Now, with audio equipment, I do feel that some things have changed for the worse. For example, I'm not too happy that Soundstream has gone more toward lower end and lower cost for most of their line, when I knew them as the go-to for kick ass sound quality amps back in the day - many of which were "cheater" amps - which was cool.

However, for the price (which is WAY better than what I used to pay back then for those amps), I'd say the new Soundstream is FANTASTIC. Why? BETTER TECHNOLOGY.

Just like computers and phones. Technology has come a long way which has reduced production costs, as well as the amount of power and sound quality one can get out of cooler running (and smaller footprint) amps. This is why car audio is better today than back then.

Did my systems sound great back then on the old school? Absolutely! But today I can get smaller and cooler running amps that put out more power to normal loads like 4 or 2 ohm (better speaker control), and sound better doing it.

My wife's Highlander upgrade I did last year sounds as good as my multi thousand $ system from 1997. And I only spent $700!!!!!! AND her picasso nano amp goes under the front passenger seat easily, and the sub and amp in the cargo area take up very little space, so when she goes grocery shopping she has 90% of the cargo area available.

Tunes through that system sound crystal clear, the amps control the speakers well for good transient response, and there is no distortion even at high volumes. I could have never accomplished such on that budget in that amount of space back in 1997.

So if you want to stay stuck in the "good ole days," fine. I had that issue for a few years. Then I woke up and smelled the coffee...


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## 1996blackmax

I thought about giving the picasso nanos a shot. Being that they are that small opens up installation options, as well as being easy on the electrical system. Thanks for your mini review of them.


----------



## Dspencer

1996blackmax said:


> I thought about giving the picasso nanos a shot. Being that they are that small opens up installation options, as well as being easy on the electrical system. Thanks for your mini review of them.


Yeah, I had to get small amps for the wife's suv - she would flip if a bunch of cargo area were taken up with amps and subs LOL! :laugh:

I wasn't sure how the picasso nano series would be - I wasn't reassured by the signal to noise or other stats, but I was just very careful to ground properly and make sure all the wiring was done right, to keep the noise floor low. 

Worked out great! In fact, her audio was sounding so good when I was in the suv with her, that my stock Lexus IS350 13 speaker system started sounding pathetic to the point I couldn't take it anymore and am currently in the middle of an install to upgrade.

In the Lexus I was more picky with my choices, though, as I don't need much trunk space in it - we use the Highlander for anything requiring cargo space. And we own a catering company and have a huge box truck for the really big cargo needs .

For the Lexus I am installing Soundstream Ref2.370, Rub.1.1000d, polk momo 6501 components, and infinity kappa 120.9w 12" sub in 1 cu. ft. sealed. I got enough done tonight to test out the equipment and make sure the wiring is good and everything works. I'll do full review on the stuff once I get it all finished up and tuned.

Oh, and I'm using the Audio Control LC7i for tapping into the factory amp outs and to control the bass roll off at high volume, and Precision Power DSP-88R for digital sound processing. Well, maybe on the dsp-88r - it's on backorder from SonicElectronix.com so I'm considering cancelling order and paying a bit more from another dealer for the Soundstream Harmony - will better match the system, but the Precision Power unit is such a good deal...


----------



## RobERacer

Hey guys. Thought you might like to hear a user opionion on the reference micro. I bought it last week hoping I found a gem saving myself a grand or so and some trunk space. Well, had it installed today. First impression... Lack luster. For a higher end "reference series" unit I was really unimpressed with what I heard. Detail seems good. Not very open sounding though. Breaks up easily when pushed. Breaking up is different than distortion. Sounds more like the bit stream lost a few samples. Almost like on/off switching. At moderate volume it sounds ok.


----------



## Dspencer

RobERacer said:


> Hey guys. Thought you might like to hear a user opionion on the reference micro. I bought it last week hoping I found a gem saving myself a grand or so and some trunk space. Well, had it installed today. First impression... Lack luster. For a higher end "reference series" unit I was really unimpressed with what I heard. Detail seems good. Not very open sounding though. Breaks up easily when pushed. Breaking up is different than distortion. Sounds more like the bit stream lost a few samples. Almost like on/off switching. At moderate volume it sounds ok.


Where did you get a Reference Micro? I don't even see those as released yet in the US according to Soundstream website.

I purchased the regular Reference 2 channel A/B amp for my mids/highs and sounds beautiful - through to head unit clipping near max volume. I can certainly tell a big difference between my system and my wife's that uses a Picasso Nano - BUT, the speakers in mine are much higher quality, so that is a good portion of it. I wonder what my higher end speakers would sound like on her PN amp...hmmm...maybe someday I'll be willing to test that out.

One thing I do know is that her PN amp doesn't break up or anything at high volume. Even with the cheaper speakers, her system sounds clear up to near max volume when clipping of the HU starts. This leads me to believe that most of the SQ difference between our vehicles is the higher quality speakers in mine plus I have a DSP with time alignment and she doesn't.


----------



## [email protected]

Yeah I would love to know where you got the Reference Micro? Since it is a rebadged Picasso Nano for Europe. So as far as Reference quality its a Korean made amp so yeah it does sound better than most but shares none of the "Reference" PCB. Europe wanted something that couldn't be shopped and so they named their version of the PN amps Reference Micro. 

As far as breaking up, I would say this is rare as I run them in a fully active setup with our DSP and have never had an issue.


----------



## [email protected]dstream

Dspencer said:


> Yeah, I had to get small amps for the wife's suv - she would flip if a bunch of cargo area were taken up with amps and subs LOL! :laugh:
> 
> I wasn't sure how the picasso nano series would be - I wasn't reassured by the signal to noise or other stats, but I was just very careful to ground properly and make sure all the wiring was done right, to keep the noise floor low.
> 
> Worked out great! In fact, her audio was sounding so good when I was in the suv with her, that my stock Lexus IS350 13 speaker system started sounding pathetic to the point I couldn't take it anymore and am currently in the middle of an install to upgrade.
> 
> In the Lexus I was more picky with my choices, though, as I don't need much trunk space in it - we use the Highlander for anything requiring cargo space. And we own a catering company and have a huge box truck for the really big cargo needs .
> 
> For the Lexus I am installing Soundstream Ref2.370, Rub.1.1000d, polk momo 6501 components, and infinity kappa 120.9w 12" sub in 1 cu. ft. sealed. I got enough done tonight to test out the equipment and make sure the wiring is good and everything works. I'll do full review on the stuff once I get it all finished up and tuned.
> 
> Oh, and I'm using the Audio Control LC7i for tapping into the factory amp outs and to control the bass roll off at high volume, and Precision Power DSP-88R for digital sound processing. Well, maybe on the dsp-88r - it's on backorder from SonicElectronix.com so I'm considering cancelling order and paying a bit more from another dealer for the Soundstream Harmony - will better match the system, but the Precision Power unit is such a good deal...


We have plenty of DSP-88R's in stock. You can purchase one from 
woofersect.com. Also same thing as the Harmony from Soundstream.


----------



## RobERacer

Ya not sure what causes the break up thing but at that volume it is almost unbearable anyway. Like I say I bought it at a local installation shop in Markham (one of the satellite cities of Toronto). Not sure why they are selling them here. As far as speakers I am running Focal KRX2's in bi-amp with it. The processing side is currently being done with a Pioneer DEH 80prs headunit. It is all time aligned as well. Overall it is a good sounding system. I was expecting something closer to my Tannoy dual concentrics and Hafler rig though. It is actually punchier than the Tannoys but grainy and also substantially down in frequency well below 20K. I am so used to open and airy. The Hafler is flat to beyond 100K and the Tannoys are over 25K. In the shop with the Focal ref amp the KRX2's were pretty open sounding. Not in the car though.


----------



## RobERacer

Hey Ryan. If that amp was starving for power a bit what would one expect to happen then? Could that explain the breaking up thing?


----------



## HardCoreDore

I would think it would go,into protection if voltage dropped below a certain point. 

Plus it's class D so it,should be pretty efficient with whatever power it receives. 

It's probably just not a very good amp. Do you have another amp you could hook up temporarily to see if the speakers sound different with other amplification?


----------



## RobERacer

Hey Ryan. Just an FYI. I was hoping it was more amp than what it is. Had it been I would totally have been happy to pay a real price for it. (I paid a little over $200) Now I am going to save my pennies, flawg it and buy a competitors product. Sound Stream is not well marketed here. People know who you are though. I work in pro audio and we are all high end audio purchasers. What can I tell the guys that is going to help you? My head isn't full of good things to say. In my case my issue is size. I have a Subaru Legacy Outback and I wanted it to fit under my seat. A real reference caliber amp with that kind of a footprint would be a very valuable thing to a good many people. In fact most of the people I know. The shop I had install it and the Focals does a lot with high end sports cars. These are Porches, Audi's, BMW's, Ferraris etc owned by bankers and doctors. (Canada, particularly Toronto makes a huge amount of it's income through investment banking. Bankers have deep pockets). The owner of the shop told me that the Focal amps are often not sold because they are too big! It would take some work to convince them of your stuff but it seems to me that small, high spec/great sonic is the coming market of consequence here. The kids don't have any money. They go to Future Shop and buy what they can afford (Mostly MTX and ****e). Actually from what I have seen Future Shop isn't doing the booming car stereo business they used to be either. Anyway I kind of doubt that the kids are going to concern themselves with Sound Stream be it Picasso or otherwise unless as a manufacturer you are willing to drop your pants, go to Future Shop and basically give your stuff away along with MTX and JVC. Assuming you want to deal middle of the road or low end product. I realize your product is a step above the stuff I mentioned but if you are going after the mass buying market would that not be them? It seems to me that JVC, Sony and MTX are just in a race to the bottom. It is certainly hard to stay on the top as there is always someone smarter coming along but it seems to me that if one does a good job targeting their niche clientele, taking care of their needs methodically one should have no problem weathering whatever storms come their way. You guys were known for solid high performance product. Doing anything mediocre with your name attached is certainly not sending a marketing message that you are committed to high caliber. I don't know how well Picasso is doing outside of Canada but Sound Steam, Picasso or otherwise aren't on the list of the big players here in Toronto. I would think you would have far greater success to just deal your high end product at reasonable prices in Canada. My guess is that Picasso largely sells because the buyer is aware of the higher end Sound Stream and doesn't have the budget for it. With Picasso they would be settling really. With that though you are going to want to share a noticeably similar sonic signature among your entire product line. You would need to do all of the typical marketing stuff here. Having your product at the car shows etc, go out of your way to show off your product to the installers etc but as long as your current high end product is as good as or better than your old stuff that everyone remembers you will gain a solid foothold here. Get greedy and you are done for. Everyone else has already beat you to the playing field. What gives you an in is that you have a known quality name brand. Without that, nobody cares. Another flea market cheapie? Whatever!

One thing I did notice that is most frustrating about your industry compared to the pro audio side is that I am very used to getting to try everything before I buy it. What if I don't like it? I would seriously consider doing product demos at very least. What makes Focal work is the fact that I can walk into one of their install shops and at least hear them first. There are many other speakers that allegedly could sound just as good and maybe better. If I am going to drop $1200 on a pair of speakers you are damn straight I want to know what it is that I am buying before I give you one cent! Why would an amp be any different? If I had the money right now I would have bought the Focal amp just because I actually heard it. I noticed that your Ref4.760 lists at $560? If I heard it and really liked it and could find a good spot to mount it. I would have bought it a week later when I had the difference in cash. The Focal is over twice the money and I don't mind spending it for what is good. It will just have to wait for a bit. I have a few other pressing priorities now. Back to what I am saying. If your stuff is that good put your money where your mouth is and show me! I assure you I will not be buying anything I haven't heard ever again regardless of how cheap it is.


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## HardCoreDore

@RobERacer There was a blind test done comparing several SQ amplifiers by several members here. 

The new SS Ref series ranked near the top. Unfortunately, as the name of this thread implies, they are d/c. You may have luck finding a new or slightly used one still. If the size works, you'd most likely be very happy with it.


----------



## [email protected]

RobERacer said:


> Hey Ryan. Just an FYI. I was hoping it was more amp than what it is. Had it been I would totally have been happy to pay a real price for it. (I paid a little over $200) Now I am going to save my pennies, flawg it and buy a competitors product. Sound Stream is not well marketed here. People know who you are though. I work in pro audio and we are all high end audio purchasers. What can I tell the guys that is going to help you? My head isn't full of good things to say. In my case my issue is size. I have a Subaru Legacy Outback and I wanted it to fit under my seat. A real reference caliber amp with that kind of a footprint would be a very valuable thing to a good many people. In fact most of the people I know. The shop I had install it and the Focals does a lot with high end sports cars. These are Porches, Audi's, BMW's, Ferraris etc owned by bankers and doctors. (Canada, particularly Toronto makes a huge amount of it's income through investment banking. Bankers have deep pockets). The owner of the shop told me that the Focal amps are often not sold because they are too big! It would take some work to convince them of your stuff but it seems to me that small, high spec/great sonic is the coming market of consequence here. The kids don't have any money. They go to Future Shop and buy what they can afford (Mostly MTX and ****e). Actually from what I have seen Future Shop isn't doing the booming car stereo business they used to be either. Anyway I kind of doubt that the kids are going to concern themselves with Sound Stream be it Picasso or otherwise unless as a manufacturer you are willing to drop your pants, go to Future Shop and basically give your stuff away along with MTX and JVC. Assuming you want to deal middle of the road or low end product. I realize your product is a step above the stuff I mentioned but if you are going after the mass buying market would that not be them? It seems to me that JVC, Sony and MTX are just in a race to the bottom. It is certainly hard to stay on the top as there is always someone smarter coming along but it seems to me that if one does a good job targeting their niche clientele, taking care of their needs methodically one should have no problem weathering whatever storms come their way. You guys were known for solid high performance product. Doing anything mediocre with your name attached is certainly not sending a marketing message that you are committed to high caliber. I don't know how well Picasso is doing outside of Canada but Sound Steam, Picasso or otherwise aren't on the list of the big players here in Toronto. I would think you would have far greater success to just deal your high end product at reasonable prices in Canada. My guess is that Picasso largely sells because the buyer is aware of the higher end Sound Stream and doesn't have the budget for it. With Picasso they would be settling really. With that though you are going to want to share a noticeably similar sonic signature among your entire product line. You would need to do all of the typical marketing stuff here. Having your product at the car shows etc, go out of your way to show off your product to the installers etc but as long as your current high end product is as good as or better than your old stuff that everyone remembers you will gain a solid foothold here. Get greedy and you are done for. Everyone else has already beat you to the playing field. What gives you an in is that you have a known quality name brand. Without that, nobody cares. Another flea market cheapie? Whatever!
> 
> One thing I did notice that is most frustrating about your industry compared to the pro audio side is that I am very used to getting to try everything before I buy it. What if I don't like it? I would seriously consider doing product demos at very least. What makes Focal work is the fact that I can walk into one of their install shops and at least hear them first. There are many other speakers that allegedly could sound just as good and maybe better. If I am going to drop $1200 on a pair of speakers you are damn straight I want to know what it is that I am buying before I give you one cent! Why would an amp be any different? If I had the money right now I would have bought the Focal amp just because I actually heard it. I noticed that your Ref4.760 lists at $560? If I heard it and really liked it and could find a good spot to mount it. I would have bought it a week later when I had the difference in cash. The Focal is over twice the money and I don't mind spending it for what is good. It will just have to wait for a bit. I have a few other pressing priorities now. Back to what I am saying. If your stuff is that good put your money where your mouth is and show me! I assure you I will not be buying anything I haven't heard ever again regardless of how cheap it is.


You know what I totally agree with. I come from the days of listening to it first and making uninformed decision before I buy. I try and beat that into the minds of our dealers but they have gotten lazy. They would rather sell the Kicker or Jl because some guy comes in and asks for it. Instead of selling them something that is much better and a better price it doesn't matter because they have to work for that sale. This is the demise of this industry, its gotten to complacent. I make a much better product than most but if we don't explain it to you, you would never know. The Reference two way for example is probably one of the best two ways on the market, know one knows it though. They aren't on a board to hear so they get passed up. Look at the amp you bought, I bet know one told you it was made in Korea where some of the best amps come from these days, or that it is our own design not copied by everyone else. I am sorry you haven't had the best results with that amp, its my best selling line. That amp uses one of the most expensive class d chips in it and all the parts are high tolerance, but I bet not a single sales person told you that! Look at my PPI 3 ways, best sounding speaker on the market under $2k I promise you that! Starting to become my best selling speaker of *all time* and why because we use the best parts available and we spent time on them. They use very unique drivers, so unique that not a single manufacturer except us had the balls to do it! That payed off in droves. We have won more awards with those speakers than any other speaker we have ever designed. So yeah we make the best **** out there but NO ONE knows it and that sucks, because I put a lot of time and effort into them! Thank you, my rant is over!


----------



## Bnixon

Well I guess I will throw in my experience with the TN line of amps.

I run and active 3-way dynaudio (8") front stage with JL 8W7 sub. I have been running a MS8 and just bought a Mosconi 6to8. I run 2 TN4.900Ds on the front stage and a TN1.1200D on the sub. I have been running the amps for a couple of years now and I can say they are phenomenal!

I have had no issues at all with them. They are dead silent and very detailed. They put out great power and give me the headroom I was looking for in my setup. 

Only negative I have is the designer that put the screws on the bottom of the amp that stick below the mounting feet should be shot!  not a big deal but one of those details.

I was very skeptical going with these amps at first with all of the other high end gear I have...I also got a lot of grief from the SQ crowd about putting "lower quality" amps in my car. The reason I did was size, power/$ and to be honest I like trying to do more with less. Supporting the underdog you know.

I have been nothing but pleased. These amps have made me really reconsider the Soundstream and PPI brands again.

Thanks Ryan for bringing such great products to the market at a great price point.

I could have gone with the mosconi, audison or other SQ oriented brands but I am glad I went with the TNs. I was able to then afford my new DSP! Can't wait to hear the improvement over the MS8!


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## sundownz

Thanks for being a part of the forum, Ryan. Good to see some reps from various brands around here!

I'm a little guy in the industry but I can say even from my viewpoint you are right about the industry in general -- as a big company that is the trend you guys need to follow. 

Even at our scale the stuff that is taking off is the mid-priced to low-priced equipment -- big stuff (amps and woofers) is still significant for us but I can see why it wouldn't be so much at Epsilon scale.

For the record... I want to try out the new Soundstream Synthesis when I get around to my next install... the PPI 3-Way set does look badass (have read several reviews)... and I had a sweet old Rubicon 702 amp many many years ago that rocked away on any load I hooked to it -- always wanted to at least get my hands on the newer REF amps for nostalgia. Hate to see them go but I get it.


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## JoshHefnerX

Bnixon said:


> Well I guess I will throw in my experience with the TN line of amps.
> 
> I run and active 3-way dynaudio (8") front stage with JL 8W7 sub. I have been running a MS8 and just bought a Mosconi 6to8. I run 2 TN4.900Ds on the front stage and a TN1.1200D on the sub. I have been running the amps for a couple of years now and I can say they are phenomenal!
> 
> I have had no issues at all with them. They are dead silent and very detailed. They put out great power and give me the headroom I was looking for in my setup.
> 
> Only negative I have is the designer that put the screws on the bottom of the amp that stick below the mounting feet should be shot!  not a big deal but one of those details.
> 
> I was very skeptical going with these amps at first with all of the other high end gear I have...I also got a lot of grief from the SQ crowd about putting "lower quality" amps in my car. The reason I did was size, power/$ and to be honest I like trying to do more with less. Supporting the underdog you know.
> 
> I have been nothing but pleased. These amps have made me really reconsider the Soundstream and PPI brands again.
> 
> Thanks Ryan for bringing such great products to the market at a great price point.
> 
> I could have gone with the mosconi, audison or other SQ oriented brands but I am glad I went with the TNs. I was able to then afford my new DSP! Can't wait to hear the improvement over the MS8!


I started this thread, and wanted the ref's and was disappointed when I was ready to buy and found they were discontinued. So I ended up getting some tn's 2x 4.900 for the front and 1x 1.1200 for the subs - depending on how the power my subs I may get another 1.1200. In the middle of the install, but that gives me hope that these will indeed work as I wanted. Thank for the input.

Josh


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## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Look at my PPI 3 ways, best sounding speaker on the market under $2k I promise you that!


That is a pretty bold statement considering the sheer number so speaker sets under $2k. Then again "best sounding" is completely subjective, so you're probably safe.


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## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> That is a pretty bold statement considering the shear number so speaker sets under $2k. Then again "best sounding" is completely subjective, so you're probably safe.


I chuckle a bit every time I read him saying that


----------



## Lanson

rton20s said:


> That is a pretty bold statement considering the sheer number so speaker sets under $2k. Then again "best sounding" is completely subjective, so you're probably safe.


If they could run Bi-amp for the midbass and midrange/tweet, I'd probably look into them.

The last-gen (Grizz-designed models) did, which makes total sense given how we all enjoy our time aligned, processor-equipped systems.

But not sure why they removed that from this model.


----------



## HardCoreDore

fourthmeal said:


> If they could run Bi-amp for the midbass and midrange/tweet, I'd probably look into them.
> 
> The last-gen (Grizz-designed models) did, which makes total sense given how we all enjoy our time aligned, processor-equipped systems.
> 
> But not sure why they removed that from this model.


^$$$


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## RobERacer

Hey Ryan. Been working like a mad man but it was good cause I got to live with the rig for a few days and make some tweaks. I am much happier with it now. Oddly enough being an audio tech one would think that I would do my own setup but I did not. I just left it with the guys. Bad decision on my end. I could hear some things that sounded like they were setup issues but you never really know till you get your fingers in there. Yup some of my whines definitely were setup issues. I think too, as I am not really used to hearing audio run with 2 ohm loads (more inherent distortion, The Focals are a 2 ohm kit) I am really feeling that which is definitely not your amps fault. Now that I have been tweaking overall it is very detailed and accurate. Openness isn't as bad as originally noted and like everything if you hammer it is will distort. It just doesn't hide much audiowise and aside from the breaking up thing which may have been the head unit seeing a lowered voltage under extreme power draw condition (Full AC, fog lights, loud audio etc)(it is measuring only 12.7-13.9 when driving so I wonder how good my battery is. Might need to upgrade my alternator too). Like it was pretty blistering when I heard that so we can just call that what it probably is. 
So here is my question. This amp according to a few earlier statements is the same as the Picasso Nano (your "no frills" line). Ya? Size is an issue but lets put that aside for a minute. X3 replaces full reference? Where does Tarantula fit in? Actually maybe you could explain the differences between them. Of course those are both higher spec and that does typically denote better sonics but knowing the kind of thing I am looking for I feel like I totally have the wrong thing for the job. Retailers often just do what they can to make a sale or don't really know any better. Basically a higher end studio reference amp for a car is what I am after (4 channel, it is resolving much more detail and smoother bi-amped than with their passive x-overs.) Are any of your other units that? How close do they get because it is going to be a long time before my other half would let me blow $3K on a Brax or equivalent. LOL. I don't care about fancy name brands and pretty boxes. I just want performance. Again if I know what I am looking for I can barter to actually hear it first.


----------



## gabbett1

[email protected] said:


> You know what I totally agree with. I come from the days of listening to it first and making uninformed decision before I buy. I try and beat that into the minds of our dealers but they have gotten lazy. They would rather sell the Kicker or Jl because some guy comes in and asks for it. Instead of selling them something that is much better and a better price it doesn't matter because they have to work for that sale. This is the demise of this industry, its gotten to complacent. I make a much better product than most but if we don't explain it to you, you would never know. The Reference two way for example is probably one of the best two ways on the market, know one knows it though. They aren't on a board to hear so they get passed up. Look at the amp you bought, I bet know one told you it was made in Korea where some of the best amps come from these days, or that it is our own design not copied by everyone else. I am sorry you haven't had the best results with that amp, its my best selling line. That amp uses one of the most expensive class d chips in it and all the parts are high tolerance, but I bet not a single sales person told you that! Look at my PPI 3 ways, best sounding speaker on the market under $2k I promise you that! Starting to become my best selling speaker of *all time* and why because we use the best parts available and we spent time on them. They use very unique drivers, so unique that not a single manufacturer except us had the balls to do it! That payed off in droves. We have won more awards with those speakers than any other speaker we have ever designed. So yeah we make the best **** out there but NO ONE knows it and that sucks, because I put a lot of time and effort into them! Thank you, my rant is over!


Which 3 ways are you referring to? I saw two of them on PPI's website. Both were similarly priced but each set seemed quite different. One used an air motion technology tweeter and had twice the power handling.


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## Lanson

gabbett1 said:


> Which 3 ways are you referring to? I saw two of them on PPI's website. Both were similarly priced but each set seemed quite different. One used an air motion technology tweeter and had twice the power handling.


He's talking about the new ones, the ones with AMT and yellow cones.


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## [email protected]

Yes the new ones. The P.65C3


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## [email protected]

RobERacer said:


> Hey Ryan. Been working like a mad man but it was good cause I got to live with the rig for a few days and make some tweaks. I am much happier with it now. Oddly enough being an audio tech one would think that I would do my own setup but I did not. I just left it with the guys. Bad decision on my end. I could hear some things that sounded like they were setup issues but you never really know till you get your fingers in there. Yup some of my whines definitely were setup issues. I think too, as I am not really used to hearing audio run with 2 ohm loads (more inherent distortion, The Focals are a 2 ohm kit) I am really feeling that which is definitely not your amps fault. Now that I have been tweaking overall it is very detailed and accurate. Openness isn't as bad as originally noted and like everything if you hammer it is will distort. It just doesn't hide much audiowise and aside from the breaking up thing which may have been the head unit seeing a lowered voltage under extreme power draw condition (Full AC, fog lights, loud audio etc)(it is measuring only 12.7-13.9 when driving so I wonder how good my battery is. Might need to upgrade my alternator too). Like it was pretty blistering when I heard that so we can just call that what it probably is.
> So here is my question. This amp according to a few earlier statements is the same as the Picasso Nano (your "no frills" line). Ya? Size is an issue but lets put that aside for a minute. X3 replaces full reference? Where does Tarantula fit in? Actually maybe you could explain the differences between them. Of course those are both higher spec and that does typically denote better sonics but knowing the kind of thing I am looking for I feel like I totally have the wrong thing for the job. Retailers often just do what they can to make a sale or don't really know any better. Basically a higher end studio reference amp for a car is what I am after (4 channel, it is resolving much more detail and smoother bi-amped than with their passive x-overs.) Are any of your other units that? How close do they get because it is going to be a long time before my other half would let me blow $3K on a Brax or equivalent. LOL. I don't care about fancy name brands and pretty boxes. I just want performance. Again if I know what I am looking for I can barter to actually hear it first.


To answer your questions here it goes:
TN or Tarantula Nano is our flagship SQ Full range Class D amp.
Better class D chips, better parts, better everything and a **** ton of power.

Tarantula
High Powered version of the Picasso PCB. Thats why we can keep the price down as low as it is. Its just an upgraded Picasso sussing better chip sets and bigger cap banks. 

Picasso Nano
OUR very own design made in Korea. Better sq than any other amp its size on the market. It competes with the Kickers and Rf amps that are just over capped chip amps. This is one of our best amps we make. Hence why the exports customers chose it. These amps are great and in fact we are making a marine line next year using this amp design. We are also adding a 1100watt version for those who need more than 650. 

Stealth
Like nothing else on the market! This thing is super tiny, built for all environments and packs a ton of power for the size. Again no other manufacturer can touch the quality of this amp. A BT version with controller for power sports and boats is coming in 2015. This has comparable SQ to PN amps. 

Picasso
This is our entry level line. This for the budget minded customer who doesn't want pyle or Boss. 

I hope this helped!


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## RobERacer

Makes sense. I will make an effort to try to get a listen totje TN's. I did notice specifically that they have much lower amount of distortion. That interested me. Thanks for the explaination.


----------



## Dspencer

[email protected] said:


> You know what I totally agree with. I come from the days of listening to it first and making uninformed decision before I buy. I try and beat that into the minds of our dealers but they have gotten lazy. They would rather sell the Kicker or Jl because some guy comes in and asks for it. Instead of selling them something that is much better and a better price it doesn't matter because they have to work for that sale. This is the demise of this industry, its gotten to complacent. I make a much better product than most but if we don't explain it to you, you would never know. The Reference two way for example is probably one of the best two ways on the market, know one knows it though. They aren't on a board to hear so they get passed up. Look at the amp you bought, I bet know one told you it was made in Korea where some of the best amps come from these days, or that it is our own design not copied by everyone else. I am sorry you haven't had the best results with that amp, its my best selling line. That amp uses one of the most expensive class d chips in it and all the parts are high tolerance, but I bet not a single sales person told you that! Look at my PPI 3 ways, best sounding speaker on the market under $2k I promise you that! Starting to become my best selling speaker of *all time* and why because we use the best parts available and we spent time on them. They use very unique drivers, so unique that not a single manufacturer except us had the balls to do it! That payed off in droves. We have won more awards with those speakers than any other speaker we have ever designed. So yeah we make the best **** out there but NO ONE knows it and that sucks, because I put a lot of time and effort into them! Thank you, my rant is over!


Bold claim for the PPI speakers! I may just check them out with next install, though.

I know about PPI & Soundstream quality for the price and tell others - hopefully that will earn you all some more business. 

I'm running all Soundstream amps in both vehicles and PPI dsp-88r digital processor. I haven't tried any of the speakers yet, though. 

But, the amps, amazing for the $! In my wife's Highlander, the Picasso Nano does a fantastic job supplying plenty of clear power to her front component set and rear coax. In my Lexus, I'm running the dsp-88r to REF2.370 for full range and RUB1.1000d for sub. 

After installing everything and tweaking the dsp settings, I can honestly say I've not heard a car audio system outside of pro comp systems that sounds as good. I've been a hobbyist since my late teens (35 now) and ran old school SS. 

Yet, to date, the new Lexus install is for sure the best sounding system I've ever had, or known anyone personally to have. A friend of ours who paid big $ for his vehicle and boat systems at a local dealer is jealous. Granted, the overall quality of the system isn't just in the amps/processor - the speakers make a big difference too.

I'm running Polk Momo 6501 set at 3ohm off the Reference amp - sounds friggin amazing! No doubt the dsp-88r is helping with that though. 

The Infinity 120.9 12" sub and your RUB1.1000d are a great match too. Very good transient response from the sub - easy to blend with front stage with the dsp - and the Infinity sub is surprisingly loud for a single SQ 12" sub, while never distorting - I have yet to find the point at which the sub will distort in the seal enclosure before amp clipping.

The sub is so clean, and the Reference powered Momo's, I forget just how loud the volume is on it at times, because without distortion, sound volume is a bit deceptive. Next thing I know after 10 minutes of listening to favorite tunes, and my ears are feeling it and I'm like, oh yeah, I probably have it TOO loud, lol.


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## rimshot

Hey Dspencer, I am planning on running two 120.9w's off of a rubicon 702 @ 2 ohms. Are you giving the sub 1000 watts? How would you compare it to others. From what I've read, and the specs, this is a good output sq sub at a fraction of the price of many other brands. I wonder why more people don't try them out. Did you go with the 1cubic foot enclosure or a little larger?


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## Dspencer

rimshot said:


> Hey Dspencer, I am planning on running two 120.9w's off of a rubicon 702 @ 2 ohms. Are you giving the sub 1000 watts? How would you compare it to others. From what I've read, and the specs, this is a good output sq sub at a fraction of the price of many other brands. I wonder why more people don't try them out. Did you go with the 1cubic foot enclosure or a little larger?


I'm running the rub1.1000d at 4 ohm - so 600 wrms to the 120.9w. In the recommended 1 cu.ft. sealed enclosure I've not reached it's mechanical limits with that power, nor the thermal limits, and I've driven it hard at times with bass boost just to see how much I could push it.

More than likely, 1000 wrms would take it beyond thermal limits - voice coil(s) may be damaged. According to some calculations I read online, mechanical limit (based on woofers xmax) would require over 650 wrms in a 1 cu.ft. sealed. So, 1000 wrms may be too much. 

I'd run no more than 650 wrms to each one, to be safe - they have good sensitivity, so at that wattage, 2 of them will be plenty loud - it will rattle your car apart...I only have 1 in my set up and have a Lexus (built very well, obviously), and still had to do quite a bit of panel dampening to keep rattles away.

I still haven't figured out how to keep the sunroof bar from rattling if i have the sub turned up loud - other than closing the sunroof, lol.

They are def great SQ subs for the $, with excellent spl output as well when running a good amount of power. Mine keeps up with every type of music, including really fast paced metal with double kicks + heavy bass guitar line, without distorting or sounding muddy.

You're right, more people should try this hidden gem out. I think they would find themselves VERY happy with the results, and the money saved. Plus, the switchable resistance (2ohm/4ohm) is a really nice feature. 

I've considered trying mine at 2 ohm, just to test and see if it still is within mechanical and thermal limits - but a bit nervous about it as I'm pretty sure that is too much for 1 120.9w. Plus it would stress the electrical system. And, honestly, since I'm more into SQ, the single 120.9w on 600 wrms is plenty - with most songs I have to turn it down with the amp remote so it doesn't dominate. I prefer it to blend in. But, at those times I feel like some dubstep or hip-hop with booming bass, I can turn it up and enjoy the slam.


----------



## Dspencer

rimshot said:


> Hey Dspencer, I am planning on running two 120.9w's off of a rubicon 702 @ 2 ohms. Are you giving the sub 1000 watts? How would you compare it to others. From what I've read, and the specs, this is a good output sq sub at a fraction of the price of many other brands. I wonder why more people don't try them out. Did you go with the 1cubic foot enclosure or a little larger?


Oh, and if you care about SQ at all, I recommend the dsp-88r for a cost effective digital processor to tweak system so the sub will blend perfectly with front stage - makes a big difference with time align, and precise lp/hp filtering for the sub and front stage components - so the transition between them is seemless.


----------



## rimshot

Thanks alot Dspencer for your post. I am going to find a deal on a second 120.9w and seal the pair into the spare tire well at 2-2.2 ft^3. I am already saving for the soundstream harmony/ppi DSP! That is all the control I need and will let me keep my factory deck. I cant wait. I will use a Rubi 702 to give the pair around 900 watts.


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## Gabe63

I have recently gotten back into this hobby. There was talk from Soundstream that they would release a replacement for the REF and PC line in early 2015. Does anyone know if that happened?

I am an old SS Ref and Orion DR lover from the 90's and bought up several of the new ref amps just in case...


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## 1996blackmax

I thought about the Reference line at one point, but due to their size I didn't get them. I am interested I seeing what the replacements will be.


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## HardCoreDore

1996blackmax said:


> I thought about the Reference line at one point, but due to their size I didn't get them. I am interested I seeing what the replacements will be.


They pretty much already said that the replacement for the reference line won't be for high end application. It's most likely going to be more cookie cutter Chinese buildhouse BS.


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## 1996blackmax

Ha! I'm actually using some of those cookie cuter amps right now.


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## hot9dog

ive been seeing some reference 1000 mono amps for sale lately, ive wanted to pull the trigger on buying some, anybody have any input on how these are. they are class G...


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## rockytophigh

I may buy some just because


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## hot9dog

ive been drooling over the 4.920 for a long time!!!! I too wanted to run an all reference system...... but the fates didn't show me that path............... I think its time I start collecting the pieces so I can stash away for the wifes car.


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## rockytophigh

I had one and a 1.500 and sold them BNIB....ugh. I do this way too often.


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## Gabe63

I agree they are big! I bought 5 x Ref2.370's just in case... My build will use 3 but it is good to have a back up plan in case of a failure. I also have a REF604 and REF405, probably going to get sold.

If I could go back in time and buy 3 x Orion 225HCCA's I would, I owned 1 brand new in 1994. So my next best option is the reference amps that recently have been discontinued.


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## rton20s

HardCoreDore said:


> They pretty much already said that the replacement for the reference line won't be for high end application. It's most likely going to be more cookie cutter Chinese buildhouse BS.


Korean. Not Chinese. And Ryan says they have a proprietary board design. At least in the SS Picasso Nano/PPI Ion/Power Acoustik Razor/European SS Reference Nano. Though, some of the newer Dual/Axxera amps look quite similar.


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## ryankenn

Is Ryan still answering stuff in here?

I see a used Nano for sale but it looks different than what's currently on sale. It has screw down speaker and power blocks, where currently the amp has a plug in for the speakers. Has there already been an update on this line?


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## 1996blackmax

I believe the earlier models had the wire plugs instead of the terminals. I was looking at picking up a few of those before I bought my current amps.


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## ryankenn

Hmm, all the current sites selling this stuff show pictures of the wire plugs still. I'd much prefer the terminal blocks that's for sure, and the biggest reason I didn't really want these amps.


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## 1996blackmax

Call em up to confirm before you order.


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## Lanson

I really like the look of the new SS Rubicon Nano.

I imagine they aren't actually really high end amps, but they look super-clean.


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## ryankenn

I like the look as well, but the marketing is cheapening the brand. I see 1400W, 2000W, 2000W, 3000W, 5000W. All from a footprint almost as small as the Picasso Nano.

At least with the Picasso's the "marketed" power is actually close to what is delivered. These ratings they've given the Rubi's are just stupid.


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## 1996blackmax

ryankenn said:


> I like the look as well, but the marketing is cheapening the brand. I see 1400W, 2000W, 2000W, 3000W, 5000W. All from a footprint almost as small as the Picasso Nano.
> 
> At least with the Picasso's the "marketed" power is actually close to what is delivered. These ratings they've given the Rubi's are just stupid.


Totally agree with you. I don't understand why they do this...it does hurt the brand.


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## quality_sound

It's because of all of these morons asking where they can get a 3KW amp but don't want to spend more than $150. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

I hadn't seen the Rubicon Nanos before now. Appears to be a mildly upgraded Picasso Nano with possibly better crossovers and single sided input. I do like the aesthetics of the amp, save for the scribble looking font and (what I assume to be) faux carbon fiber inlay. 

And I know that fuse ratings on amplifiers aren't necessarily an indication of how much power they can provide. But three 10A fuses on a 5 channel rated at up to 1000w RMS just doesn't seem right. 

It would be interesting to see Sonic throw some of these Ion/Picass Nano/Rubicon Nano amps on their AD-1 to see how they perform.


----------



## ryankenn

They aren't 10A fuses. They are just part of the rendering (if you google Rubicon Nano there is a HQ Image) of the amp, and are blank. Its not a real photo of the product. 

Pricing at Onlinestereo is low for these things, not much more than the Picasso's. I like the way these look alot more and may just try the 5 channel as my Zapco 7 Channel may finally sell. I just need a small amp for a basic system in my resto truck and these look great.


----------



## rton20s

I was aware that it was just a rendering. However, the rendering uses a specific color on the fuse of the 5 channel amp. That specific color is red and is associated with 10A fuses. 

The rendering of the 4 channel marine version of the amplifier indicates three 20A (yellow) fuses. This seems to be more in line with the 125w x 4 @ 4 ohms rating. I actually kind of like the looks of the marine amps a little bit more. It probably doesn't hurt that my car is white. It will be interesting to see how close the reality looks to the rendering.


----------



## ryankenn

My point was that I doubt they are using the color in the rendering to actually represent the amperage of fuse, in this case 10A. The Picasso Nano fuse is also red/orange, and its 40A in the actual photos so based on the wattage I wouldn't doubt they'll stuff this thing with 3 x 40A to make it look like it actually pushes 3000W.

The only place showing these for sale (5 Channel is priced at $198USD) is Onlinecarstereo.com and I don't know if I've ever seen a site with worse reviews, so I doubt they have stock.


----------



## 1996blackmax

I'll never order anything from them. Last two times the items weren't in stock...actually only been twice that I've tried to buy something from them.


----------



## Lanson

I've had zero issues with OCS but I think I got lucky. I'm sure it is just a matter of time before they mess w/ me too.

But if you email them before you order, and ask them to make very sure that the item is in stock and ready to ship, then that seems to work. I will only do that in the future.


----------



## rton20s

ryankenn said:


> My point was that I doubt they are using the color in the rendering to actually represent the amperage of fuse, in this case 10A. The Picasso Nano fuse is also red/orange, and its 40A in the actual photos so based on the wattage I wouldn't doubt they'll stuff this thing with 3 x 40A to make it look like it actually pushes 3000W.
> 
> The only place showing these for sale (5 Channel is priced at $198USD) is Onlinecarstereo.com and I don't know if I've ever seen a site with worse reviews, so I doubt they have stock.


As someone who has used 3D modeling software as a regular part of my career for 20 years, I would think they would make an attempt at accuracy. I know if I was tasked to model the amps, I would. And the fact that the other rendering of the 4 channel marine amp has different color fuses indicates to me that their modeler did put some level of thought into it. Who knows though, we will see how they perform when they are actually released. I'm sure Ryan will be along shortly to tell us how they are the best thing since sliced bread. 

At least there are no gaudy spiders! :2thumbsup:


----------



## [email protected]

ryankenn said:


> Is Ryan still answering stuff in here?
> 
> I see a used Nano for sale but it looks different than what's currently on sale. It has screw down speaker and power blocks, where currently the amp has a plug in for the speakers. Has there already been an update on this line?


Actually the current is the screw down type.


----------



## [email protected]

rton20s said:


> I hadn't seen the Rubicon Nanos before now. Appears to be a mildly upgraded Picasso Nano with possibly better crossovers and single sided input. I do like the aesthetics of the amp, save for the scribble looking font and (what I assume to be) faux carbon fiber inlay.
> 
> And I know that fuse ratings on amplifiers aren't necessarily an indication of how much power they can provide. But three 10A fuses on a 5 channel rated at up to 1000w RMS just doesn't seem right.
> 
> It would be interesting to see Sonic throw some of these Ion/Picass Nano/Rubicon Nano amps on their AD-1 to see how they perform.


Yeah guys these are going to be an awesome series. The pictures you see are all CG, and not the actual amplifier. These amps are based off of the Picasso Nano with upgraded crossovers and upgraded components. These will sound amazing and have a ton of power.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Does anyone have a lead on a 5 channel Reference 5.1000? I'm interested in all, but would prefer a NIB or gently used one.


----------



## ryankenn

[email protected] said:


> Yeah guys these are going to be an awesome series. The pictures you see are all CG, and not the actual amplifier. These amps are based off of the Picasso Nano with upgraded crossovers and upgraded components. These will sound amazing and have a ton of power.


What time of year are these coming out? I emailed and the response was just "no idea" Is it late, or soon? I'm looking at the 5 channel.

I also sent an email inquiring about licensed vendors to buy off online (since there are large warnings on your site). I can't find any listing of vendors anywhere, could you PM me a couple of the larger licensed online distributors?

Thanks.


----------



## [email protected]

ryankenn said:


> What time of year are these coming out? I emailed and the response was just "no idea" Is it late, or soon? I'm looking at the 5 channel.
> 
> I also sent an email inquiring about licensed vendors to buy off online (since there are large warnings on your site). I can't find any listing of vendors anywhere, could you PM me a couple of the larger licensed online distributors?
> 
> Thanks.


They are delayed due to the current port situation. Finally the port is back up and running but on a huge back log....who did you email? 

The Rubicon Nano will be here in April sometime.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*Looks like I need to get one of the out going REF's before they are gone.*


----------



## HardCoreDore

Aaron Clinton said:


> *Looks like I need to get one of the out going REF's before they are gone.*


They're gone already from what i can see. I've looked high and low for a reference 5.1000. No luck, not even on the secondary market.


----------



## ryankenn

[email protected] said:


> They are delayed due to the current port situation. Finally the port is back up and running but on a huge back log....who did you email?
> 
> The Rubicon Nano will be here in April sometime.


The reply came from [email protected] Just said you don't have a release date still.

What about vendors, I never got an answer from them on that either. I don't see a vendor list anywhere but its on the SS site warning of not using non vendors for fear of voiding the warranty through SS direct.


----------



## reclermo

HardCoreDore said:


> Does anyone have a lead on a 5 channel Reference 5.1000? I'm interested in all, but would prefer a NIB or gently used one.


I think the SS 5 channel amp would be a solid performer - especially when running just a single sub. I don't know anything about this vendor, but I remember seeing one for sale the other day for only $350. If you can pick one up at that price then you would be golden, you could definitely do far worse!

Best of luck!

Soundstream REF5.1000 540W RMS + 460W RMS x 1 5-Channel A/B Class Reference Series Car Audio Amplifier at Onlinecarstereo.com


----------



## 1fishman

reclermo said:


> I think the SS 5 channel amp would be a solid performer - especially when running just a single sub. I don't know anything about this vendor, but I remember seeing one for sale the other day for only $350. If you can pick one up at that price then you would be golden, you could definitely do far worse!
> 
> Best of luck!
> 
> Soundstream REF5.1000 540W RMS + 460W RMS x 1 5-Channel A/B Class Reference Series Car Audio Amplifier at Onlinecarstereo.com


Online car stereo is a joke. They haven't had any of the Soundstream Reference 5.1000 or the 4.920 in stock for over a year. Woofer etc has some 4.920 still but they are now asking $500 for them.


----------



## HardCoreDore

1fishman said:


> Online car stereo is a joke. They haven't had any of the Soundstream Reference 5.1000 or the 4.920 in stock for over a year. Woofer etc has some 4.920 still but they are now asking $500 for them.


I don't think he was referring to the SS Ref series. They are talking about some new class D 5 channel that's coming out. 

I personally am looking for a reference 5 channel, so i guess that's where the confusion came from.


----------



## reclermo

1fishman said:


> Online car stereo is a joke. They haven't had any of the Soundstream Reference 5.1000 or the 4.920 in stock for over a year. Woofer etc has some 4.920 still but they are now asking $500 for them.


Thanks for the heads-up fishman, my guess is that you call for a Reference, and they try to sell you a Nano.

For those of you looking to pick up the Reference amps, why not just pick up the PPI PowerClass instead? The output figures seem to be identical up and down their line of 2/4 channel A/Bs. You can pick up a 600 watt two channel for around $130 online, quite a deal.


----------



## HardCoreDore

reclermo said:


> Thanks for the heads-up fishman, my guess is that you call for a Reference, and they try to sell you a Nano.
> 
> For those of you looking to pick up the Reference amps, why not just pick up the PPI PowerClass instead? The output figures seem to be identical up and down their line of 2/4 channel A/Bs. You can pick up a 600 watt two channel for around $130 online, quite a deal.


The PPI website says they are discontinued. I realize they have very similar boards (if not identical) so i did look for some but was unsuccessful. Please post links. Does anyone have any experience with the "new" power class?


----------



## reclermo

HardCoreDore said:


> The PPI website says they are discontinued. I realize they have very similar boards (if not identical) so i did look for some but was unsuccessful. Please post links. Does anyone have any experience with the "new" power class?


Hey, I just picked up a pair of the PPI PC650.2 amps for $117 each at Beach Audio:










http://www.beachaudio.com/Presision-Power/Pc6502-p-751426.html

I think they are a steal at this price. There are also some 4 channel models and smaller 2 channels on Ebay and Sonic, as well.

Happy hunting!


----------



## Mike Bober

reclermo said:


> For those of you looking to pick up the Reference amps, why not just pick up the PPI PowerClass instead? The output figures seem to be identical up and down their line of 2/4 channel A/Bs. You can pick up a 600 watt two channel for around $130 online, quite a deal.


For me i wanted the REF series because i thought they were one of the best looking amps out the so im sure many others liked them for their looks also, besides them being good amps. I lucked out and got 3 just before i heard they were being discontinued. Now if i can only get some good weather in the spring to get them installed!


----------



## Lanson

1fishman said:


> Online car stereo is a joke. They haven't had any of the Soundstream Reference 5.1000 or the 4.920 in stock for over a year. Woofer etc has some 4.920 still but they are now asking $500 for them.


I'll agree. If you want to go with OCS (and I have 6 times so far, all have been good so far), just email them with your request for a stock check before you purchase. If they let you know its in stock, then order. If they don't email you back, of course hold off.  I had that happen with a Zapco 7ch that only they "had"...of course they didn't have it.

But with all other orders like the Vibe amps and components I ordered, extra little parts, some JBL coaxials, and some SS stuff, it was no issue and they ship like instantly to my door. I think one time it was a day and a half, I was impressed.


----------



## reclermo

Mike Bober said:


> For me i wanted the REF series because i thought they were one of the best looking amps out the so im sure many others liked them for their looks also, besides them being good amps. I lucked out and got 3 just before i heard they were being discontinued. Now if i can only get some good weather in the spring to get them installed!


Mike, I think it was probably a great pickup on your part to score them while you could. I do like the fact that all the connections are on the bottom rail of the amp (unlike the Power Class series from PPI). I think cosmetically, it would have been nice not to have the giant "Soundstream" logo on the front though, are these removable by the way?

I had some communication with a seller on eBay today that is auctioning off a pair of nice Reference amps. The link is below:

I think there is a Ref 1x1000 and a Ref 4x100 starting at $390.










Soundstream REF1 1000 and REF4 400 Amplifiers 709483032774 | eBay


----------



## HardCoreDore

reclermo said:


> Hey, I just picked up a pair of the PPI PC650.2 amps for $117 each at Beach Audio:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Presision Power PC6502 Precision Power Power Class 2ch 650w Rms Amplifier
> 
> I think they are a steal at this price. There are also some 4 channel models and smaller 2 channels on Ebay and Sonic, as well.
> 
> Happy hunting!


Have you used these before? that is a really good price. I don't like the way the connections are on both sides though, however they are cheap. I do wonder if they are as good as the new ref series, though. They supposedly share boards, but I don't see how that's possible with the connections being in different locations. Also Soundstream usually mounts their mosfets on the back side of the board. The mosfets on these amps are on the sides.


----------



## 1styearsi

[email protected] said:


> Just so you know Soundstream owns PPI. We make the same great product in both lines because we have PPI customers and Soundstream customers. We share the same technology across many of our lines to help save cost for you guys, so you get a great product without having to spend an arm and a leg.


i have a 10.0 from the 90's and 3 of the PPI Power Class amps from the same era the new line's are a shadow of their former self's. i think selling the same products with different names is BS. company's like maxsonics bought up good company's to capitalize on the good reputations that were built with quality products and then started pushing made in Korea/China amps on us.i think it sucks!!


----------



## styro

So glad I picked these up last year. Suckers are huge. Unfortunately they have been sitting in my closet collecting dust since then. Pulled them out this week to finish new amp rack.


----------



## HardCoreDore

styro said:


> So glad I picked these up last year. Suckers are huge. Unfortunately they have been sitting in my closet collecting dust since then. Pulled them out this week to finish new amp rack.


Got a 5.1000 in there?


----------



## Gabe63

styro said:


> So glad I picked these up last year. Suckers are huge. Unfortunately they have been sitting in my closet collecting dust since then. Pulled them out this week to finish new amp rack.


Nice! Can't wait to see photos of the install.


----------



## Gabe63

HardCoreDore said:


> Got a 5.1000 in there?


None of them have enough inputs. The 5/1000 has 3 pairs of RCA inputs. My guess is:
1x 4/920 (or 4/760)
2x 2/640
1x 2/370


----------



## styro

Gabe63 said:


> None of them have enough inputs. The 5/1000 has 3 pairs of RCA inputs. My guess is:
> 1x 4/920 (or 4/760)
> 2x 2/640
> 1x 2/370


Good guess. 4.920 and correct on the others.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Gabe63 said:


> None of them have enough inputs. The 5/1000 has 3 pairs of RCA inputs. My guess is:
> 1x 4/920 (or 4/760)
> 2x 2/640
> 1x 2/370


I'm obviously getting desperate...


----------



## styro

HardCoreDore said:


> I'm obviously getting desperate...


I was too for a 1.1000. I ended up getting burned on flea bay where someone shipped me the 500 watt mono for the 1000 watt I thought I was buying. Took me over 2 months to get my money refunded. In the mean time I bought another 2.620 from Amazon and figured I bridge it to a sub. 640 watts is better than 500 watts. Bought the 2.370 at the same time since it was only around $85 .


----------



## HardCoreDore

styro said:


> I was too for a 1.1000. I ended up getting burned on flea bay where someone shipped me the 500 watt mono for the 1000 watt I thought I was buying. Took me over 2 months to get my money refunded. In the mean time I bought another 2.620 from Amazon and figured I bridge it to a sub. 640 watts is better than 500 watts. Bought the 2.370 at the same time since it was only around $85 .


I guess i probably should just buy a few of the 2 or 4 channel models. Especially since some sellers still have them. I just really prefer total system amplifiers for simplicity's sake.


----------



## Gabe63

styro said:


> Good guess. 4.920 and correct on the others.


How do you plan to configure the system?


----------



## omnibus

What's this amp about? The soundstream "human reign"? Looks interesting.










Anyway, I wish Soundstream would do a modern remake of the old Davinci amp, I always thought it was awesome looking, even if it was a smaller class D amp, as long as it did the rated power I'd be happy to get one.


----------



## HardCoreDore

The Human Reigns were really good amps. They didn't sell b/c they were really expensive. A lot of the cost came from the ridiculous heat sink you see above. They did produce a few Human Reign amps without the "face". They were a lot cheaper but had a much cheaper msrp. 

SS calls them Class A, but like their old class a amps they are really just a high-biased A/B design. They sound great though. 

Like the Reference line no one wanted them until they stopped making them, and then everyone clamored to find them. I looked for several months for a HRU4 4 channel (the latter non-face version), to no avail.


----------



## ryankenn

There is/was a gold plated Davinci on Ebay yesterday.


----------



## styro

Gabe63 said:


> How do you plan to configure the system?


Thats what I'm trying to decide on now. My vehicle I had planned on using these in was totaled. If I use a sub;

Ref2.620 bridged to Dayton HO 12 sub 4 ohm in rear deck or trunk, either way sealed, Ref 4.920 bridged to Peerless SLS 8"s in rear deck sealed, Ref2.620 to 6.5 mid woofers in doors and the Ref2.370 to Scanspeak 10F's in dash pods. 

If I use the SLS 8's for sub and midbass duties I could bridge the (2) 620 amps to them for more power and have the 370 amp in case I need tweeters for upper end. All this will be running active on Precision Power DEQ.8. 

I had an ID CTX6.5 comp set but 1 mid was crunched in accident so think I'm going to pick up the Peerless SLS 6.5's. 

My idea is to run a midbass array, although with different drivers. The SLS 6.5's should sound close to the 8's and the rear deck stock locations in my new car, 08 Chrysler Sebring, are spread very wide, off center from the rear headrests. 

I pulled the trigger on the 10F's last night, so I can get building the pods for them while winter still grips New England, 2 degrees this morning, in March for gods sake. 

Also I'm having an alternator bracket made for a new HO alternator that I'm sure I'll need.


----------



## quality_sound

ryankenn said:


> There is/was a gold plated Davinci on Ebay yesterday.


All of the DaVincis were gold. All of the Tarantulas were nickel.


----------



## omnibus

HardCoreDore said:


> The Human Reigns were really good amps. They didn't sell b/c they were really expensive. A lot of the cost came from the ridiculous heat sink you see above. They did produce a few Human Reign amps without the "face". They were a lot cheaper but had a much cheaper msrp.
> 
> SS calls them Class A, but like their old class a amps they are really just a high-biased A/B design. They sound great though.
> 
> Like the Reference line no one wanted them until they stopped making them, and then everyone clamored to find them. I looked for several months for a HRU4 4 channel (the latter non-face version), to no avail.


I wouldn't think casting an aluminum plate would make it so expensive. Awesome looking amp though, shame they couldn't find a way to make it cheaper.


----------



## styro

HardCoreDore said:


> I looked for several months for a HRU4 4 channel (the latter non-face version), to no avail.


These are beautiful amps. This is what I was looking for when I was told by a friend, who has a HRU2 and HRU4, about the Reference amps. I love having all the controls and inputs on one side, especially the recessed power, ground and speaker connectors. I wish all amp manufacturers would do this.


----------



## ryankenn

Its like a fire sale on Davinci's now, 1 here, 2 on Ebay. What's going on?


----------



## Lanson

I ran one of those, Grizz was really nice and located one for me and sold it to me for a great price so I was able to have filet mignon on a hamburger budget at one point. Anyway, yes the HRU's are what the Human Reign amps were under that gorgeous cover. They are truly reference amps. They are also monster amperage consumers, so be sure to have your system in tip-top shape before trying one. 



styro said:


> These are beautiful amps. This is what I was looking for when I was told by a friend, who has a HRU2 and HRU4, about the Reference amps. I love having all the controls and inputs on one side, especially the recessed power, ground and speaker connectors. I wish all amp manufacturers would do this.


----------



## ryankenn

Both the HRU2 and HRU4 popped up on Ebay today.

Soundstream Human Reign 4 HRU 4 4 Channel Legendary Car Amplifier | eBay

Soundstream Human Reign 2 HRU 2 2 Channel Legendary Car Amplifier | eBay

Both from the same seller.


----------



## HardCoreDore

ryankenn said:


> Both the HRU2 and HRU4 popped up on Ebay today.
> 
> Soundstream Human Reign 4 HRU 4 4 Channel Legendary Car Amplifier | eBay
> 
> Soundstream Human Reign 2 HRU 2 2 Channel Legendary Car Amplifier | eBay
> 
> Both from the same seller.


I saw those earlier. He's asking quite a bit for them.


----------



## ryankenn

Are the modern Korea made References (2.370, 1.500 etc) as good as the old school stuff? The specs seem similar and ampguts look good, just curious how they perform?


----------



## HardCoreDore

Almost this entire thread is dedicated to this very subject. Put your reading glasses on and go at it


----------



## ryankenn

I tried but the first 5 pages are just a clusterfuck of whining and fighting.


----------



## HardCoreDore

ryankenn said:


> I tried but the first 5 pages are just a clusterfuck of whining and fighting.


Lol! Welcome 2 da internetz.  

A few members here held an amp listening session in a hotel conference room a while back. They used many different high end amps and a few mid-range models. The new Reference series was one of those. 

The new Reference series faired very well against amps that cost way more. They definitely aren't as overbuilt as the original reference series, but they should sound similar especially at higher impedances.


----------



## styro

ryankenn said:


> Are the modern Korea made References (2.370, 1.500 etc) as good as the old school stuff? The specs seem similar and ampguts look good, just curious how they perform?


Here's an excellent and pretty comprehensive review by rexroadj back in 2009 just after their release. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum.../63148-sounstream-reference-4-920-review.html
I believe he owned some of the older models, but I may be wrong.

Whining and fighting? Really? :laugh: Like this: :argue:


----------



## ryankenn

Thanks. I ended up buying a 4.400 off Ebay. Same seller as the HR amps listed above. He also had a 4.920 that sold for $185, which I thought was good.

Now I need to find a 1.500, 1.1000 or 640.2 for a decent price.

I'm curious, compared to the originals the ohm ratings of these seem pretty tame. Has anyone tried loading them down at all? My subs are dual 2ohm and I'd planned on doing 2 ohm mono with them, or 4 or 1 ohm stereo. Don't know how'd these react to 1 ohm stereo though. The 370.2 is only $79 on Amazon and I was thinking it might be worth the risk to try it.


----------



## HardCoreDore

ryankenn said:


> Thanks. I ended up buying a 4.400 off Ebay. Same seller as the HR amps listed above. He also had a 4.920 that sold for $185, which I thought was good.
> 
> Now I need to find a 1.500, 1.1000 or 640.2 for a decent price.
> 
> I'm curious, compared to the originals the ohm ratings of these seem pretty tame. Has anyone tried loading them down at all? My subs are dual 2ohm and I'd planned on doing 2 ohm mono with them, or 4 or 1 ohm stereo. Don't know how'd these react to 1 ohm stereo though. The 370.2 is only $79 on Amazon and I was thinking it might be worth the risk to try it.


IIRC only the mono block amps are capable of 2ohms mono. None of the new Reference series have the automatic impedance switching circuitry. In other words they aren't high current amps. 

Your best bet would be to run your subs series-parallel for a 2 ohm mono load on one of the mono blocks.


----------



## styro

ryankenn said:


> Thanks. I ended up buying a 4.400 off Ebay. Same seller as the HR amps listed above. He also had a 4.920 that sold for $185, which I thought was good.
> 
> Now I need to find a 1.500, 1.1000 or 640.2 for a decent price.
> 
> I'm curious, compared to the originals the ohm ratings of these seem pretty tame. Has anyone tried loading them down at all? My subs are dual 2ohm and I'd planned on doing 2 ohm mono with them, or 4 or 1 ohm stereo. Don't know how'd these react to 1 ohm stereo though. The 370.2 is only $79 on Amazon and I was thinking it might be worth the risk to try it.


Amazon has a couple Ref1.500 for about $170 brand new w/ free shipping. Not a bad deal.


----------



## ryankenn

I got a lightly used one with box/remote for $105 shipped. We'll see how it looks when it arrives though.


----------



## ryankenn

Everything came today, looked pretty good. The 500 is in great shape, the 400 has a few scratches on top. Look untouched inside which is good, included the remote and instructions for the 500. Definitely a decent deal from the seller on Ebay (Syndicate_audio_systems). If you are looking for these he sells a ton and is very reasonable if you deal with him direct.

I won the 400.4 for $140 and paid $26 shipping. I emailed him about other amps and he sold me the 500 for $105 shipped which is great. 

Can't wait to get started on the system this summer.


----------



## 1996blackmax

Those things sure are purrrty


----------



## HardCoreDore

^ Cue the dueling banjos...

"Boy you got a purrrty mouth..."


----------



## styro

Great deal. I hope you enjoy them.


----------



## gstokes

chithead said:


> I can't understand why those Tarantula Nano are being mocked and overlooked by the "SQ" crowd.


Because of the name, I myself don't like spiders and to be honest I would feel real childish filling my amp rack with components that have spiders on them, it looks immature and/or gimmicky and that's why the SQ crowd avoids them, doesn't matter how good it sounds if it looks like a 10 yr old designed the system.
I have always been Soundstream fan but today the only Soundstream product i use is the BX-10 Bass Processor and I LOVE IT, car audio fanatics prefer a more industrialized look and not stuff with spiders hanging off them.
The name "tarantula" and "nano"" are very poor choices and actually scare people away instead of drawing them in, nano means smaller than micro and people associate that nano term with the performance characteristics and no matter what the specs say they will have that nano term stuck in their head.
MB Quart uses words that make people feel confident and good like the Önyx and/or Discus series of amplifiers or Premium Series or Reference Series..
What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Tarantula or Nano?
What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Diamond, Ruby, Sapphire and Crystal? 
Those are all excellent names that don't scare people away and if Soundstream is smart they would adopt names like that for their series of amplifiers and speakers and sales will go through the roof..
Psychology plays a huge part in marketing a product and Soundstream needs to pay closer attention to the psychology of people and how they think or feel when using certain words or looking at certain objects..
Lot's of people suffer from Arachnophobia, me being one of them, I hate spiders and when i chose the BX-10 it was hard to overlook the scary looking spider but the performance and quality is there and it is priced right but i was constantly going back and forth in my head about the Spider..
Thank the good lord for not giving spiders wings so they can fly, that would scare the hell out of me!!


----------



## 1996blackmax

gstokes said:


> Thank the good lord for not giving spiders wings so they can fly, that would scare the hell out of me!!


That's funny 


The Tarantula Nano's are actually good looking amps when you see them in person. I myself don't like the spider.......I overlooked it & am happy with their performance.


----------



## wizzi001

gstokes said:


> Because of the name, I myself don't like spiders and to be honest I would feel real childish filling my amp rack with components that have spiders on them, it looks immature and/or gimmicky and that's why the SQ crowd avoids them, doesn't matter how good it sounds if it looks like a 10 yr old designed the system.
> I have always been Soundstream fan but today the only Soundstream product i use is the BX-10 Bass Processor and I LOVE IT, car audio fanatics prefer a more industrialized look and not stuff with spiders hanging off them.
> The name "tarantula" and "nano"" are very poor choices and actually scare people away instead of drawing them in, nano means smaller than micro and people associate that nano term with the performance characteristics and no matter what the specs say they will have that nano term stuck in their head.
> MB Quart uses words that make people feel confident and good like the Önyx and/or Discus series of amplifiers or Premium Series or Reference Series..
> What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Tarantula or Nano?
> What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Diamond, Ruby, Sapphire and Crystal?
> Those are all excellent names that don't scare people away and if Soundstream is smart they would adopt names like that for their series of amplifiers and speakers and sales will go through the roof..
> Psychology plays a huge part in marketing a product and Soundstream needs to pay closer attention to the psychology of people and how they think or feel when using certain words or looking at certain objects..
> Lot's of people suffer from Arachnophobia, me being one of them, I hate spiders and when i chose the BX-10 it was hard to overlook the scary looking spider but the performance and quality is there and it is priced right but i was constantly going back and forth in my head about the Spider..
> Thank the good lord for not giving spiders wings so they can fly, that would scare the hell out of me!!


So in other words you won't use them because of childish reasons.


----------



## gstokes

wizzi001 said:


> So in other words you won't use them because of childish reasons.


No, I just prefer a more functional appearance and less foofoo..


----------



## HardCoreDore

gstokes said:


> Because of the name, I myself don't like spiders and to be honest I would feel real childish filling my amp rack with components that have spiders on them, it looks immature and/or gimmicky and that's why the SQ crowd avoids them, doesn't matter how good it sounds if it looks like a 10 yr old designed the system.
> I have always been Soundstream fan but today the only Soundstream product i use is the BX-10 Bass Processor and I LOVE IT, car audio fanatics prefer a more industrialized look and not stuff with spiders hanging off them.
> The name "tarantula" and "nano"" are very poor choices and actually scare people away instead of drawing them in, nano means smaller than micro and people associate that nano term with the performance characteristics and no matter what the specs say they will have that nano term stuck in their head.
> MB Quart uses words that make people feel confident and good like the Önyx and/or Discus series of amplifiers or Premium Series or Reference Series..
> What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Tarantula or Nano?
> What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Diamond, Ruby, Sapphire and Crystal?
> Those are all excellent names that don't scare people away and if Soundstream is smart they would adopt names like that for their series of amplifiers and speakers and sales will go through the roof..
> Psychology plays a huge part in marketing a product and Soundstream needs to pay closer attention to the psychology of people and how they think or feel when using certain words or looking at certain objects..
> Lot's of people suffer from Arachnophobia, me being one of them, I hate spiders and when i chose the BX-10 it was hard to overlook the scary looking spider but the performance and quality is there and it is priced right but i was constantly going back and forth in my head about the Spider..
> Thank the good lord for not giving spiders wings so they can fly, that would scare the hell out of me!!


I killed a mother wolf spider in my kitchen the other night. All those babies scattering about freaked me out! I'm not even scared of spiders but that was crazy. It took both hands and feet to kill them all. Freaky...


----------



## ryankenn

Well I was able to bench them both with what I had at hand, so I can say that seller is a pretty good deal. $105 for a 500.1, I really can't believe it.


----------



## 1styearsi

who cares about the spiders when they are MADE IN CHINA. i have a made in the USA 1000sx and it is sweet..


----------



## HardCoreDore

ryankenn said:


> Well I was able to bench them both with what I had at hand, so I can say that seller is a pretty good deal. $105 for a 500.1, I really can't believe it.


I asked him via Ebay messaging where he gets this SS stuff? He said some is remanufactured, some are old stock, etc. He gets them straight from SS. He didn't have a 5.1000 but i may end up getting a 4.920 instead. I don't really even need the rear speakers in my car so 4 channels should be plenty.


----------



## ryankenn

Having looked at mine, both are used, neither has been repaired from the looks of it. Even a minor component replacement is usually obvious unless they really went to town on it. Either way, they are a great value. 

I asked him about the 5.1000 to, so ME FIRST! 

Those are so hard to find, and they look so nice.

I could have had the 920.4 auction at $162, but its really way too much amp for me. I paid for the 400.4 through Ebay and side deal'd the 500.1, no issues.


----------



## 1996blackmax

HardCoreDore said:


> ^ Cue the dueling banjos...
> 
> "Boy you got a purrrty mouth..."


Just got this one as it went on the next page.

"Squeal like a pig" 



1styearsi said:


> who cares about the spiders when they are MADE IN CHINA. i have a made in the USA 1000sx and it is sweet..


If it does what it is intended of it, does it matter where it's made?


----------



## styro

1styearsi said:


> who cares about the spiders when they are MADE IN CHINA. i have a made in the USA 1000sx and it is sweet..


No, they're ASSEMBLED IN SOUTH KOREA with the components made all over the world, most from Southeast Asia. 










The 1000sx was Assembled in the US with components made all over the world, again, most coming from Southeast Asia. The only thing "made" by Soundstream is the design of the amps and their specific specifications. Then they contract out the the work to the company that can fulfill their needs at the lowest cost. 
Just as Apple does with their iPhones and iPads which are assembled by Foxconn. 
By the way, I would much rather have a product "made" in South Korea, Japan, Taiwan or Singapore than Red China and North Korea or as they refer to themselves the DPRK, Democratic People's Republic of Korea.


----------



## HardCoreDore

styro said:


> No, they're ASSEMBLED IN SOUTH KOREA with the components made all over the world, most from Southeast Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1000sx was Assembled in the US with components made all over the world, again, most coming from Southeast Asia. The only thing "made" by Soundstream is the design of the amps and their specific specifications. Then they contract out the the work to the company that can fulfill their needs at the lowest cost.
> Just as Apple does with their iPhones and iPads which are assembled by Foxconn.
> By the way, I would much rather have a product "made" in South Korea, Japan, Taiwan or Singapore than Red China and North Korea or as they refer to themselves the DPRK, Democratic People's Republic of Korea.


Due to trade embargos you can't buy anything from DPRK. They don't really make anything anyway. What they do make they export to China -their only trade partner.


----------



## styro

South Korea trades with he DPRK but in the past few years the volume has dropped quite a bit. Countries are allowed to trade for certain goods, not many, but some. Health care items and the like. To see how much they depend on China see this: North Korea's Paradoxical Upswing in Trade - AEI. Without China they'd be the first "4th world" country in history. Ever see satellite imagery taken over that country, totally dark except for a few lightbulbs burning in Pyongyang.


----------



## RobERacer

gstokes said:


> Because of the name, I myself don't like spiders and to be honest I would feel real childish filling my amp rack with components that have spiders on them, it looks immature and/or gimmicky and that's why the SQ crowd avoids them, doesn't matter how good it sounds if it looks like a 10 yr old designed the system.
> I have always been Soundstream fan but today the only Soundstream product i use is the BX-10 Bass Processor and I LOVE IT, car audio fanatics prefer a more industrialized look and not stuff with spiders hanging off them.
> The name "tarantula" and "nano"" are very poor choices and actually scare people away instead of drawing them in, nano means smaller than micro and people associate that nano term with the performance characteristics and no matter what the specs say they will have that nano term stuck in their head.
> MB Quart uses words that make people feel confident and good like the Önyx and/or Discus series of amplifiers or Premium Series or Reference Series..
> What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Tarantula or Nano?
> What goes through your head and how do you feel when you think of Diamond, Ruby, Sapphire and Crystal?
> Those are all excellent names that don't scare people away and if Soundstream is smart they would adopt names like that for their series of amplifiers and speakers and sales will go through the roof..
> Psychology plays a huge part in marketing a product and Soundstream needs to pay closer attention to the psychology of people and how they think or feel when using certain words or looking at certain objects..
> Lot's of people suffer from Arachnophobia, me being one of them, I hate spiders and when i chose the BX-10 it was hard to overlook the scary looking spider but the performance and quality is there and it is priced right but i was constantly going back and forth in my head about the Spider..
> Thank the good lord for not giving spiders wings so they can fly, that would scare the hell out of me!!


I actually mentioned the Spider thing to one of the guys from Soundstream. I was ranting a bit as they were also discontinuing almost all of the products that were of any interest to me and the way I see it most sonics driven purchasers. They got back to me bless their hearts after I kinda ripped em a new one if you know what I mean. I think the point there is that they probably care.

Here is the thing. They own maybe a half a dozen or so brands carrying similar product and a number of those products have functional guts that overlap. Sounstream and Precision Power are their two higher end lines. Both have some fairly serious stuff. We have to note price points though as they are a finances driven company as opposed to finatics driven. By that I mean that products are designed to be able to do what they do within a specified price range. Allegedly, prettimuch all of their stuff is king in it's class. If that is good enough for you as thing. The Tarantula Nano line and the PPI Phantom Series from what I understand share the same guts and that is going to make them sound prettimuch the same. Are the Soundstream Tarantula and PPI Power Class series's the same? The PPI Power Class series was considered a fairly serious player. Soundstream and Precision Power are steered at two different kinds of buyers. Bassheads (Soundstream) and Sq (PPI). Both groups arguably require higher end product but slightly different. Bass heads might be thought to be more "posers"maybe? Hence the flashier looking product. I don't want to assume anything though as I don't know any actual bassheads personally. Just putting that out there based upon what it looks like from the web side so we can try to understand what they are up to with the different branding. I am bummed that PPI is discontinuing their Power Class Series. They were smaller and notably had a very high damping factor. Some folks say damping factor and wider frequency response have no bearing on the amp sounding better. Actually, there is arguments that make every type spec not usable except dimensions. I think better specs overall point to better circuit designs but I will say they are no guarantee of that either. Tarantula are bigger and probably wouldn't fit under a front seat if that is a concern. It is in my case. 

As far as the spider goes while I personally think it a gimmick issue it was pointed out to me that the spider and particularly the Tarantula are a Soundstream tradition. It goes back to the very beginnings of Soundstream. The only thing I have to say in that regard is maybe the problem has more to do with delivery though. What I mean is in regard to the imagery that was used to portray the spider. Could the spider logo not be made to look more commercially "cool". It's a graphic arts thing. Refinement really. I am an audio guy and don't have any clue how but I have friends that would be more qualified to speak to that. One thing the guys tell me to do is look at it and note what the image says to you. The pictogram of the Tarantula is rather large which relates to my "poser" statement for example. A bit cartoony?


----------



## HardCoreDore

The new PPI PC and New Reference Series were supposed to be "sister amps" i don't see how, the architecture is completely different. Same components maybe, but they most likely sound quite a bit different. 

I don't remember any spiders on the earliest beloved SS stuff. The first Tarantula was a mono subwoofer amp in the late 90's. It had a big heatsink with fans like The Davinci only it was chrome.


----------



## styro

HardCoreDore said:


> The new PPI PC and New Reference Series were supposed to be "sister amps" i don't see how, the architecture is completely different. Same components maybe, but they most likely sound quite a bit different.


I agree but the specs of the PPI PC640.4 are the same as the SS Ref4.760, except for the SS Ref bridged must be a misprint @ 380 watts. They made that mistake on the 4.920 too. All the other Ref amps show the bridged wattage as being double the 2 ohm wattage.










The board, except for the color, along with the components, do look somewhat alike.









Maybe they just changed the architecture of the amps and made everything else the same. If you read the product page they sound identical:

PC640.4 - Power Class - Amplifiers - Products
REF4.760 - Reference - Amplifiers - Car Audio


----------



## RobERacer

HardCoreDore said:


> The new PPI PC and New Reference Series were supposed to be "sister amps" i don't see how, the architecture is completely different. Same components maybe, but they most likely sound quite a bit different.
> 
> I don't remember any spiders on the earliest beloved SS stuff. The first Tarantula was a mono subwoofer amp in the late 90's. It had a big heatsink with fans like The Davinci only it was chrome.


 Hmm with them being sister units that explains why they are both discontinued. Interesting how the power specs aren't exactly the same though. That shouldn't really change. Anyway, the issue is that the Tarantula series is their new top end.

Car audio was not really on my radar in the 80's and 90's. I was more concerned about the gear that I worked with than what was in my ****ty cars. All of the cars I heard, even the ones that had money thrown at their audio rigs nothing less than full on sucked. Anyway, back then I had no idea Soundstream even existed so I had no first hand experience of higher end aftermarket car audio. It was Soundstream that told me about the spider. I guess they could be wrong.


----------



## dBDAMó

Whats the go with discontinuing the Sounstream RF-60C?... Dont understand why your discontinued all the good stuff?... 
Whats is ment to be the RF60C 2-way's replacement?....
Because the current speakers are weak!!!......


----------



## [email protected]

The RF-60C has been discontinued for 2 years now. The newest replacement is the RC.6


----------



## samdoan

Ryan,

When are we going to see the 2015 line go on sale? I'm anxiously waiting for the RN5.2000D to be released.

I spoke to Chris Giordano a month back and he said things were delayed due to the situation with the ports and we should see them for sale early April. Are we getting close?


----------



## [email protected]

samdoan said:


> Ryan,
> 
> When are we going to see the 2015 line go on sale? I'm anxiously waiting for the RN5.2000D to be released.
> 
> I spoke to Chris Giordano a month back and he said things were delayed due to the situation with the ports and we should see them for sale early April. Are we getting close?


The Rubicon Nano will be here sometime towards the end of April. The ports have certainly slowed things a bit however that line was not effected as it hasn't shipped form Korea yet, still perfecting a few things. This is going to be very surprising amplifier series fro us and we want it to be as close to perfect as can be, after all it is a Rubicon one of the longest standing amplifiers series in company history. These guys are going to be great amps.


----------



## adriancp

Any updates on availability, pricing, or actual photos? Thanks Ryan


----------



## [email protected]

Sorry guys not yet....Our guys are in Hong Kong as we speak finalizing all the details on the Rubicon Nano. Shipping sometime soon. (keep fingers crossed)


----------



## rockytophigh

I've got an install involving the Picasso amps, 4 channel and mono, in the next few weeks. I'll be using the Harmony for DSP. I'll let you all know how it comes out.


----------



## DDfusion

[email protected] said:


> Sorry guys not yet....Our guys are in Hong Kong as we speak finalizing all the details on the Rubicon Nano. Shipping sometime soon. (keep fingers crossed)




How much pull does elpision have with the SS badge? I see a lot of PPI/power acustik looking SS badged amps.


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> How much pull does elpision have with the SS badge? I see a lot of PPI/power acustik looking SS badged amps.


All owned by Epsilon. Very similar (if not the same) amps in different heatsinks.


----------



## DDfusion

rton20s said:


> All owned by Epsilon. Very similar (if not the same) amps in different heatsinks.




So why does everybody go crazy over power acustik amps with SS badges?


----------



## alachua

DDfusion said:


> So why does everybody go crazy over power acustik amps with SS badges?


Because they are considering the overall performance of the amp or the value it provides from an engineering/technical standpoint opposed to blindly praising/criticizing the brand name affixed to the heatsink?


----------



## gstokes

alachua said:


> Because they are considering the overall performance of the amp or the value it provides from an engineering/technical standpoint opposed to blindly praising/criticizing the brand name affixed to the heatsink?


Psychologically speaking that makes no sense at all, i mean not choosing a component with a popular brand name but instead basing the selection on facts and scientific evidence, that's crazy if you ask me ..


----------



## 1996blackmax

gstokes said:


> Psychologically speaking that makes no sense at all, i mean not choosing a component with a popular brand name but instead basing the selection on facts and scientific evidence, that's crazy if you ask me ..


Ha! Yeah!


----------



## HardCoreDore

I am now the proud owner of 2 PPI PC650.2's. I got the last 2 Sonic had for $108.99 a piece shipped. 

I don't buy that they're the same amps as the Reference SS line, but if they're close I can't miss for that money. They're probably made from the same mil-spec components. 

I plan on keeping the gains pretty low as I don't need that much power. I bet they'll sound amazing on my Boston Pro 6.0's. The other will handle sub duties and I still have to buy them. 

Anyone else running the power class?


----------



## lunareisa

How much would one pay for a REF1.1000? Since they're discontinued I can't really find a price online.


----------



## Yawar538

Any Reference or similar high grade line up to be launched in future? Or we just give up on Soundstream?


----------



## HardCoreDore

lunareisa said:


> How much would one pay for a REF1.1000? Since they're discontinued I can't really find a price online.


A lot of people bought them up and are now selling them at a premium since they're discontinued. 

I personally am very happy with the PPI power class amps I just bought. They were so cheap I may just "horde" a few of them for my collection


----------



## lunareisa

The reason for asking is that I'm interested in selling my REF1.1000. The condition is almost like brand new. I tried listing it up on craigslist locally but I had no luck. If anybody wants to see it, I can take some pictures. :3


----------



## adriancp

So maybe this has already been mentioned in this thread but it's been so long I don't remember... Are the Rubicon Nano's going to be the flagship line for Soundstream? And since they are so close to shipping, do you have any preliminary pricing?

I guess this is primarily directed towards [email protected]


----------



## HPDE30

There's no real pics or details yet, but the MSRP is on the site now:

soundstream.com

Click on the individual amp for price. I'd also love to know when these will be coming in...

Really? less than 5 posts so I can't include a link? Turn the above into an address and you'll get there. Stupid forum rule.


----------



## HardCoreDore

HPDE30 said:


> There's no real pics or details yet, but the MSRP is on the site now:
> 
> soundstream.com
> 
> Click on the individual amp for price. I'd also love to know when these will be coming in...
> 
> Really? less than 5 posts so I can't include a link? Turn the above into an address and you'll get there. Stupid forum rule.


It's to prevent people (and bots) from joining the site just to post spam. They still manage to slip it by though. I like a good Spam-burger for breakfast on occasion...


----------



## adriancp

Thanks, I really have no idea why I've glanced over the prices every time. So with that being MSRP I'm assuming they will be right in line with the PPI Phantom's when they get put on Sonic or similar. I got to see the display model of the amps at SBN this March, tiny footprint for sure. I have to say though, I appreciate SS making these into a more mature/polished looking product without all the spiders & stuff.


----------



## HPDE30

HardCoreDore said:


> It's to prevent people (and bots) from joining the site just to post spam. They still manage to slip it by though. I like a good Spam-burger for breakfast on occasion...


Yeah I know, I was just grumpy about it last night. Need to participate more...

I'm also looking forward to seeing the amps, might be the answer for me.


----------



## [email protected]

The Rubicon Nano is coming soon, the first to ship is the 4 channel and the 2500w mono block. They should be here next month. As for the other models don't look for them until July. Hope this helps. We will post more specs once we test and approve the models one by one. This is not a Phantom nor a Tarantula Nano.


----------



## adriancp

Soooo...... Are you saying these are going to be a level above the Phantoms? Thanks for the info Ryan!


----------



## rton20s

Ryan can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the new Rubicon Nanos are more similar to the Picasso Nano and PPI Ion. The primary difference being single sided connections and top mount controls as well as a slight power bump.


----------



## stickpony

[email protected] said:


> Just so you know Soundstream owns PPI. We make the same great product in both lines because we have PPI customers and Soundstream customers. We share the same technology across many of our lines to help save cost for you guys, so you get a great product without having to spend an arm and a leg.



yes, AND POWER ACOUSTIK owns Soundstream, FYI


----------



## 1996blackmax

Point being?


----------



## HardCoreDore

stickpony said:


> yes, AND POWER ACOUSTIK owns Soundstream, FYI


Epsilon owns them all. No brand owns another brand in this case, they're all owned by parent company Epsilon. Stickpony I'm not sure where you got that quote but I can't find it. Regardless of what the SS Rep said, the truth is product lines used shared architecture to save manufacturing costs. This may result in cheaper prices for us the consumer, but not necessarily.

There are 2 classifications of manufacturing cost savings: 

Economies of Scope: Cost savings realized by producing 2 or more product lines using the same R&D, parts, manufacturing equipment, etc. 

Economies of Scale: Cost savings realized by producing a large number of units- buying parts at a bulk discount, becoming more efficient at manufacturing said products.

Companies say of course that all of this results in cheaper prices for the consumer and sometimes, it does, but in reality consumer prices have more to do with market value than manufacturing costs. 
Instead the cost savings realized from scope and scale economies result in higher corporate profits.


----------



## [email protected]

^^^ What he said. 

And has anyone actually bought or used a recent Power Acoustik anything? They are great product at great value. One of our best selling woofers comes from PA and the very same version in SS and PPI sells 100 to 1 (thats not a joke). Now of course we make product for all types of car audio and each brand appeals to a different demographic, but we still share the technology across the board. So to say that any of them are not good is a shame if you haven't tried them.


----------



## rton20s

Ryan, if you wouldn't mind sharing, which woofers are you referring to from each of the respective brands?


----------



## HardCoreDore

rton20s said:


> Ryan, if you wouldn't mind sharing, which woofers are you referring to from each of the respective brands?


Also was there a Power Acoustic version of the Ref/Power Class line of amplifiers? So far I like the PC650.2s I bought. At least for the highs anyway. I need to go pick up my subwoofers to see if these amps shine for sub duty as well.


----------



## [email protected]

PA- Mofo
SS- T7 (disco)
PPI- PC (newly redesigned same soft parts)
They all share the same VC cooling technology. All the dust caps are aluminum and directly attached to the VC for better cooling. The big ugly heat sinks really do something!

Again MOFO #1 selling woofer for any brand we own. Yet for some reason SS and PPI have very slow sales cycles, yet performance is off the charts. My guess is that in that category of woofer the JL and Kicker sell better because of name, and not performance. The new redesigned PC woofer is a beast and sounds amazing. And all of these woofers are designed by a very special individual who may or may not have designed the stroker. So..... there you go the inside scoop!


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for the info. So, very similar, but certainly not identical. At least judging by the available T/S parameters (not just going off of looks). Still good info to have.


----------



## [email protected]

Of course T/S is effected by different materials used in the cones and such. But yes all very similar woofers.


----------



## BIGMIKE

I have been tempted to try either the Picasso Nano or Ion series of amplifiers. I'm not a pro so please don't beat me up to bad if the answer is obvious. The two 4 channels, pn4.520d and i520.4, I believe, have almost identical specs. I would lean towards the PPI simply for aesthetics. My question for Ryan is, can both of these amps perform the same given the different internal fusing? One has 60 amps, the other 40. This may mean absolutely nothing but for a novice like myself it is a little confusing. If the soundstream is the better amp then it is the one I will try, if there shouldn't be a performance difference then the PPI will aesthetically fit and I will try it. Any info you can give me on this would be helpful. Thanks for being part of the forum Ryan.


----------



## BIGMIKE

Man, this thread was just cruising along til I asked a question. I'm guessing everyone is just sitting with their heads in their hands wondering why I would ask something everyone else knows the answer to.


----------



## Mike Bober

I have a question about the Ref. 1.1000, for what reason does it have the 2 sets of power and remote on connections? I never seen that before and im curious before i hook it up since it says nothing in the manual that came with it.


----------



## 1996blackmax

BIGMIKE said:


> I have been tempted to try either the Picasso Nano or Ion series of amplifiers. I'm not a pro so please don't beat me up to bad if the answer is obvious. The two 4 channels, pn4.520d and i520.4, I believe, have almost identical specs. I would lean towards the PPI simply for aesthetics. My question for Ryan is, can both of these amps perform the same given the different internal fusing? One has 60 amps, the other 40. This may mean absolutely nothing but for a novice like myself it is a little confusing. If the soundstream is the better amp then it is the one I will try, if there shouldn't be a performance difference then the PPI will aesthetically fit and I will try it. Any info you can give me on this would be helpful. Thanks for being part of the forum Ryan.


The later Picasso Nanos also have a 40 amp fuse. They are the same thing in different trim. I actually have one of the PN's with a 40 amp fuse.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Mike Bober said:


> I have a question about the Ref. 1.1000, for what reason does it have the 2 sets of power and remote on connections? I never seen that before and im curious before i hook it up since it says nothing in the manual that came with it.


It's common to have multiple terminals for power and ground on many powerful old school amps. That amp is a beast so the more current you can feed the power supply the better. IIRC those amps only have 4ga power inputs, so this allows you to effectively double that to ~ 2ga.


----------



## Mike Bober

HardCoreDore said:


> It's common to have multiple terminals for power and ground on many powerful old school amps. That amp is a beast so the more current you can feed the power supply the better. IIRC those amps only have 4ga power inputs, so this allows you to effectively double that to ~ 2ga.


Thanks! I figured thats what it was for but i never seen it before. Bad part was i had to order more cable to hook it up......so many delays for the little things i need to order when building a system for first time.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Mike Bober said:


> Thanks! I figured thats what it was for but i never seen it before. Bad part was i had to order more cable to hook it up......so many delays for the little things i need to order when building a system for first time.


You wouldn't need to run a new wire to the battery, just use a terminal splitter that will give you at least 2 4ga outputs.


----------



## Mike Bober

HardCoreDore said:


> You wouldn't need to run a new wire to the battery, just use a terminal splitter that will give you at least 2 4ga outputs.


that is what i did.


----------



## HardCoreDore

Mike Bober said:


> that is what i did.


Just making sure


----------



## la2lvtom

So Ryan the 5 channel Rubicon NANO (rn5.2000) will be the last of the Rubi nano's released? I am rebuilding my car and purchased 4 Reference 2.370's, your last XXX 15K and 2 harmony DSP's and am just waiting on the Rubi nano 5 channel (the blue matches the Reference blue) so I can start the rebuild. There is an online store that claims they have them but I have been very leery of buying it from them. Thanx for the info.


----------



## HardCoreDore

la2lvtom said:


> So Ryan the 5 channel Rubicon NANO (rn5.2000) will be the last of the Rubi nano's released? I am rebuilding my car and purchased 4 Reference 2.370's, your last XXX 15K and 2 harmony DSP's and am just waiting on the Rubi nano 5 channel (the blue matches the Reference blue) so I can start the rebuild. There is an online store that claims they have them but I have been very leery of buying it from them. Thanx for the info.


That sounds like one hell of a build! Keep us updated.


----------



## [email protected]

la2lvtom said:


> So Ryan the 5 channel Rubicon NANO (rn5.2000) will be the last of the Rubi nano's released? I am rebuilding my car and purchased 4 Reference 2.370's, your last XXX 15K and 2 harmony DSP's and am just waiting on the Rubi nano 5 channel (the blue matches the Reference blue) so I can start the rebuild. There is an online store that claims they have them but I have been very leery of buying it from them. Thanx for the info.


Let me guess the online store is onlinecarstereo.com? I assure you they don't have it!


----------



## SkizeR

[email protected] said:


> Let me guess the online store is onlinecarstereo.com? I assure you they don't have it!


is there nothing you guys (or any other brand for that matter) can do about that site listing stuff they dont actually have?


----------



## [email protected]

SkizeR said:


> is there nothing you guys (or any other brand for that matter) can do about that site listing stuff they dont actually have?


I have personally made that call...and nothing. Only thing I can say is if we don't have it on our sight, they don't have it.


----------



## SkizeR

[email protected] said:


> I have personally made that call...and nothing. Only thing I can say is if we don't have it on our sight, they don't have it.


like legally though.. or is what theyre doing perfectly legal


----------



## 1996blackmax

That site is awful....crappy customer service...products not in stock


----------



## HardCoreDore

SkizeR said:


> is there nothing you guys (or any other brand for that matter) can do about that site listing stuff they dont actually have?


I agree I don't understand why they do it. It's not a Bait & Switch b/c they don't try to sell you something different. I'm guessing they're just using their credit card machine (& prospective customers) as a pay day loan company. They bring in the credits and wait a few days to run the debits- Thereby "borrowing" our money for zero interest.


----------



## XJ Jay

[email protected] said:


> PPI Phantom and Soundstream TN amps are the same thing just different heat sinks. Guys one of our competitors is using Phantom amps and he wins everything he enters. So trust me they work and sound amazing.
> 
> Also yes it is true Powerclass is gone as well. It will be back....in 2015


Amy progress or new on this, my sub amp blew a few weeks back and would like to replace it with a PPI PC mono block as i have a PPI PC 360.2 on my front end.


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> Amy progress or new on this, my sub amp blew a few weeks back and would like to replace it with a PPI PC mono block as i have a PPI PC 360.2 on my front end.


How do you like your "New PC" amp? I think mine sound pretty good for the money. I have headroom for days with these PC650.2s. It's pretty loud too.

I am still trying to get my tune just the way I like it. Once I have everything dialed in, it'll sound amazing.


----------



## SkizeR

HardCoreDore said:


> I agree I don't understand why they do it. It's not a Bait & Switch b/c they don't try to sell you something different. I'm guessing they're just using their credit card machine (& prospective customers) as a pay day loan company. They bring in the credits and wait a few days to run the debits- Thereby "borrowing" our money for zero interest.


yes they do bait and switch


----------



## HardCoreDore

SkizeR said:


> yes they do bait and switch


So are they giving you the hard-sale on something different when you call in? They didn't when I called in. They just said "We don't have that". Are you saying that once they have your money, they call to sell something different? 

It's not bait and switch if they aren't trying to sell you something else. It's just a hassle.


----------



## XJ Jay

HardCoreDore said:


> How do you like your "New PC" amp? I think mine sound pretty good for the money. I have headroom for days with these PC650.2s. It's pretty loud too.
> 
> I am still trying to get my tune just the way I like it. Once I have everything dialed in, it'll sound amazing.



i quite enjoy it, wish i went bigger for more head room, its just has enough to power my front end, but it gets hot and has even gone into thermal protection a few times. gonna move it from behind the seat of my truck for better cooling.


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> i quite enjoy it, wish i went bigger for more head room, its just has enough to power my front end, but it gets hot and has even gone into thermal protection a few times. gonna move it from behind the seat of my truck for better cooling.


Yea, the one I'm using for sub duty got super hot the other day. It didn't shut down but it was very hot to the touch. I'm running it 2 ohms stereo on two dvc 4 ohm Arc 10s. The other 650.2 is running 3 ohms stereo on a set of Boston Pro 6.0 components. That one doesn't get anywhere near as hot obviously. 

I had wanted to mount these on my rear seat backs, but b/c my enclosure sits very close to the rear seat back, I don't think there will be enough airflow. I have them temporarily installed on a piece of hardboard near the back of the trunk. I guess I'm going to have to kiss my entire trunk goodbye for an amp rack. Oh well...


----------



## XJ Jay

HardCoreDore said:


> Yea, the one I'm using for sub duty got super hot the other day. It didn't shut down but it was very hot to the touch. I'm running it 2 ohms stereo on two dvc 4 ohm Arc 10s. The other 650.2 is running 3 ohms stereo on a set of Boston Pro 6.0 components. That one doesn't get anywhere near as hot obviously.
> 
> I had wanted to mount these on my rear seat backs, but b/c my enclosure sits very close to the rear seat back, I don't think there will be enough airflow. I have them temporarily installed on a piece of hardboard near the back of the trunk. I guess I'm going to have to kiss my entire trunk goodbye for an amp rack. Oh well...


Lol, I have Arc Audio Arc 10s and Boston SPZ60s


----------



## XJ Jay

Contemplating getting I pair of PPI Black Ice amps, 4ch 1000.4 for the front end and 2600.1 for the sub stage. Thinking about a DSP of some kind.


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> Lol, I have Arc Audio Arc 10s and Boston SPZ60s


I'm running the Xdi 10's although our setups are very similar. I almost pulled the trigger on the Z's back in '07 but ended up just settling for the Pros. I still have my original set of Boston Pro 5.4s from 1994. They still sound amazing so I figured why mess with precedence?

I'm ultimately happy with my decision as I've already gotten 8 years out of the Pro6.0s and I just now started feeding them enough power to really make them sing. They had only seen about 70w RMS till now, and that wasn't enough. They need at least 150wpc to sound good. I figure mine are now getting about 250wpc (at 3 ohms). They don't show the slightest amount of strain either--just endless headroom. 

There are still several of the 650.2s for sale on various websites at closeout prices. They make great sub amps too, if you're OK with a class a/b sub amp. 


XJ Jay said:


> Lol, I have Arc Audio Arc 10s and Boston SPZ60s


----------



## XJ Jay

HardCoreDore said:


> I'm running the Xdi 10's although our setups are very similar. I almost pulled the trigger on the Z's back in '07 but ended up just settling for the Pros. I still have my original set of Boston Pro 5.4s from 1994. They still sound amazing so I figured why mess with precedence?
> 
> I'm ultimately happy with my decision as I've already gotten 8 years out of the Pro6.0s and I just now started feeding them enough power to really make them sing. They had only seen about 70w RMS till now, and that wasn't enough. They need at least 150wpc to sound good. I figure mine are now getting about 250wpc (at 3 ohms). They don't show the slightest amount of strain either--just endless headroom.
> 
> There are still several of the 650.2s for sale on various websites at closeout prices. They make great sub amps too, if you're OK with a class a/b sub amp.



SPZs where given to me from a friend who switched to Focal K2s, i figure im running close to the rated power on my Bostons and i find the tweeters are still a light bright despite being auttented down -4dB, i need to work on my midbass, finish sealing and deadning my door, i considered getting a 650.2 as there cheap online in limited quanaties


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> SPZs where given to me from a friend who switched to Focal K2s, i figure im running close to the rated power on my Bostons and i find the tweeters are still a light bright despite being auttented down -4dB, i need to work on my midbass, finish sealing and deadning my door, i considered getting a 650.2 as there cheap online in limited quanaties


Was it you that was looking for a pc1000.1 mono block? I ran across a good deal on one on Ebay: 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/261895256089?...3D161727398289&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460


----------



## XJ Jay

HardCoreDore said:


> Was it you that was looking for a pc1000.1 mono block? I ran across a good deal on one on Ebay:
> 
> ⚡precision Power⚡ PPI ⚡power Class PC1000 1 Oldschool Amp Ships Worldwide 543534637804 | eBay



Yes it was, thank you. Call me old fashion but I'm not fond of buying electronics off eBay, but I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures. Right now I'm not sure the of the direction I wish to take, my friend apparently fixed my AudioSystem Twister F4 380 amp and I may go full active, not sure cause it makes a good amount of power and not sure how my tweeters are gonna like it and it's not exactly a good match for my RCA out put of my head unit(6v pre outs, amp is 4v or less).


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> Yes it was, thank you. Call me old fashion but I'm not fond of buying electronics off eBay, but I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures. Right now I'm not sure the of the direction I wish to take, my friend apparently fixed my AudioSystem Twister F4 380 amp and I may go full active, not sure cause it makes a good amount of power and not sure how my tweeters are gonna like it and it's not exactly a good match for my RCA out put of my head unit(6v pre outs, amp is 4v or less).


I can't say that I blame you. I've been burnt a couple of times myself. Those were old school amps though. With it being so knew chances are that it's ok. Besides if it were DOA, ebay sides with the buyer almost every time.


----------



## blacklisthunter

[email protected] said:


> I have personally made that call...and nothing. Only thing I can say is if we don't have it on our sight, they don't have it.


Ryan, 

Any news on when the Rubicon Nano 5ch will be coming out? Anyway we can see some spec sheets or user manual?


----------



## [email protected]

blacklisthunter said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Any news on when the Rubicon Nano 5ch will be coming out? Anyway we can see some spec sheets or user manual?



Our product manager is on Korea this week kicking some ass and getting these guys to get a move on. The 5 channel is done, and the mono is done and the 4 channel is being finalized while the are there. The BT Stealth is also on the way as well.


----------



## XJ Jay

[email protected] said:


> Our product manager is on Korea this week kicking some ass and getting these guys to get a move on. The 5 channel is done, and the mono is done and the 4 channel is being finalized while the are there. The BT Stealth is also on the way as well.


Any news on the PPI Power Class amp making a return?


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> Any news on the PPI Power Class amp making a return?


I bought a couple of the 600 watt 2 channels of the most recent version Power Class. I'm happy with them for the most part, but the bass knob doesn't work on either one. I have read other complaints regarding this issue online. The led lights up on the knob, but the pot does nothing. Any thoughts?


----------



## XJ Jay

HardCoreDore said:


> I bought a couple of the 600 watt 2 channels of the most recent version Power Class. I'm happy with them for the most part, but the bass knob doesn't work on either one. I have read other complaints regarding this issue online. The led lights up on the knob, but the pot does nothing. Any thoughts?


Try another one or see if it can be tested. I assume you have it bridged mono and on a LPF. I'm gonna buy a 640.2 from woofers etc and will probably bi amp my SPZs with my 360.2


----------



## HardCoreDore

XJ Jay said:


> Try another one or see if it can be tested. I assume you have it bridged mono and on a LPF. I'm gonna buy a 640.2 from woofers etc and will probably bi amp my SPZs with my 360.2


Oh yeah, I forgot we have very similar set ups. Actually one 650.2 is run 2 ohms stereo on 2 dual 4 ohm Arc 10's. Maybe the amp needs to be bridged in order for the bass knob to work. I chose 2 ohms stereo (coils wired series to each channel) vs 4 ohms stereo (coils wired series/parallel to one channel),vast is allowed me to run a little larger gauge speaker wire. 

The other 650.2 is run 3 ohms stereo on a set of Boston Pro 6.0s. I have switched the amps places and neither amp's knob works. 

I do like the convenience of the ppi plugs but a larger gauge speaker wire input would be nice. I think it's 10 gauge max. I am running oversized 10 ga on both woofers so I'd end up having to trim the strands in order to make them fit.


----------



## XJ Jay

Try bridged mono on even one sub and see if the remote bass gain works, let me know


----------



## SunyD

[email protected] said:


> Our product manager is on Korea this week kicking some ass and getting these guys to get a move on. The 5 channel is done, and the mono is done and the 4 channel is being finalized while the are there. The BT Stealth is also on the way as well.



Hey Ryan, just sent you a PM about the TN.4's. 

Also, thanks for all your help around here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates the customer service, especially AFTER the sale is complete lol. We all want to buy products we know the manufacturer will back in the long run. I don't see that often, but really, it makes the difference.

Thanks again :beerchug:


----------



## Micksh

[email protected] said:


> Our product manager is on Korea this week kicking some ass and getting these guys to get a move on. The 5 channel is done, and the mono is done and the 4 channel is being finalized while the are there. The BT Stealth is also on the way as well.


Ryan, I saw the Rubicon Nano amps on the website, I like the layout better compared to the Tarantula Nano amps. Which of the two lines are going to be the "better" amps in your opinion?


----------



## 1996blackmax

This is from their website....

"For 2015, Rubicon amplifiers are all new. We adopted the optimum class D performance, reliability, and footprint of the Picasso Nano platform and present to you Rubicon Nano."


----------



## Micksh

1996blackmax said:


> This is from their website....
> 
> "For 2015, Rubicon amplifiers are all new. We adopted the optimum class D performance, reliability, and footprint of the Picasso Nano platform and present to you Rubicon Nano."


Yeah, I was looking them over. I really like the look and the layout, having all the wires on one side, etc. Just kind of wondering if they will be the quality of the TN/Phantom line, or a step below.


----------



## adriancp

Yeah that's what I was trying to figure out... Where on the pyramid these land. Flagship or mid level?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 1996blackmax

Seems like people have been happy with running the Picasso Nanos. I would think that if these are based on those, the same would be true here. I also like the layout better on these.


----------



## ChrisB

1996blackmax said:


> Seems like people have been happy with running the Picasso Nanos. I would think that if these are based on those, the same would be true here. I also like the layout better on these.


Even I am happy with the Picasso Nano that is currently running my add-on sub until I foster up enough motivation to finish my complete install. I'm probably one of the pickiest mofos on this forum! :laugh:


----------



## 1996blackmax

ChrisB said:


> Even I am happy with the Picasso Nano that is currently running my add-on sub until I foster up enough motivation to finish my complete install. I'm probably one of the pickiest mofos on this forum! :laugh:


That says a lot right there . I actually bought a couple for future use .


----------



## gstokes

I like the style of the new products, there are no questions as to the performance as am sure SS is on top of their game with the latest technology, checking out the X line but don't know if its enough to sway me from PPI and Black Ice..


----------



## DDfusion

I wonder which power acoustik amp it clones.


----------



## Dynamic SQ

adriancp said:


> Yeah that's what I was trying to figure out... Where on the pyramid these land. Flagship or mid level?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Does it really matter? In this day and age, Soundstreams flagship doesn't even compare to a good brands entry level.

No matter what you buy with the Soundstream name, you know you aren't getting anything great. It's a throw away product.


----------



## 2fnloud

Ryan,

Are the specs correct for the 5 channel's sub section 500W at 4 Ohm but 400W at 2 Ohm?


----------



## 1996blackmax

Dynamic SQ said:


> Does it really matter? In this day and age, Soundstreams flagship doesn't even compare to a good brands entry level.
> 
> No matter what you buy with the Soundstream name, you know you aren't getting anything great. It's a throw away product.


How do they not compare to the other brands every level amps? Can you be specific?


I've been very happy with my tarantula nano amps. They produce rated power & are pretty small. This was the first time I've used fullrange class d amps.


----------



## Sicaudiophile

Is this post dead? I would Love to know when the Rn5.2000 will be here and when we will get the ref/pc line.


----------



## Sicaudiophile

Whats happening with the Ref line? and i just want to know if I should still weight or get the new Rr5.2000


----------



## rton20s




----------



## adriancp

Need a like button lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sicaudiophile

I'm in the market for a new amp and so far this thread has just been a tease. Ryan needs to come post again.


----------



## HardCoreDore

rton20s said:


>


Bravo sir... Bravo!


----------



## 1996blackmax

rton20s said:


>


Buahahahahaha!!!!


Nice one


----------



## Sicaudiophile

rton20s said:


>


Yes Yes I agree funny. But this is the only post I can find about the new Soundstream amps so i went with it.


----------



## HardCoreDore

They may have just decided to release them as 2016 models instead. Seeing as how 2015 is almost gone they can tank 2015 in the accounting department, and blame it on the port issue then bounce back quickly in 2016 since they already have product over here. It's not like 2015 hasn't already been a disaster for them anyway... 

I'll take a look at their quarterly...


----------



## PPI_GUY

HardCoreDore said:


> They may have just decided to release them as 2016 models instead. Seeing as how 2015 is almost gone they can tank 2015 in the accounting department, and blame it on the port issue then bounce back quickly in 2016 since they already have product over here. *It's not like 2015 hasn't already been a disaster for them anyway... *I'll take a look at their quarterly...


I assume you're referring to the fine Epsilon received for using a third-party to ship product into a certain country that at the time was still under a ban?


----------



## rton20s

HardCoreDore said:


> They may have just decided to release them as 2016 models instead. Seeing as how 2015 is almost gone they can tank 2015 in the accounting department, and blame it on the port issue then bounce back quickly in 2016 since they already have product over here. It's not like 2015 hasn't already been a disaster for them anyway...
> 
> I'll take a look at their quarterly...


I know that as of January they were claiming to be almost $7m in debt and had looming fines in excess of $4m because one of their foreign distributors was selling the product in Iran. I guess there could be strategy at play here.


----------



## HardCoreDore

^ No, actually I had forgotten about all of that. 

Upon further examination, it looks to be a privately held corporation. I thought Epsilon was publicly traded but apparently not. 

It looks like they are challenging the $4MM fine Uncle Sam levied at them over the Iran issue. Apparently some other company was actually selling the equipment, not them. Tell it to the judge I guess...


----------



## rton20s

HardCoreDore said:


> Tell it to the judge I guess...


----------



## PPI_GUY

$7 million of debt sounds like a lot for a car audio company not named JBL or Alpine. There are probably only a handful of companies that could survive for very long in this industry with that kind of negative on the balance sheet. Wonder how they plan to deal with that number?


----------



## Sicaudiophile

rton20s said:


> I know that as of January they were claiming to be almost $7m in debt and had looming fines in excess of $4m because one of their foreign distributors was selling the product in Iran. I guess there could be strategy at play here.


That does seem like a lot for a relatively smaller company. Where did you get the 7M figure?


----------



## rton20s

Sicaudiophile said:


> That does seem like a lot for a relatively smaller company. Where did you get the 7M figure?





Law360 said:


> Since the fine was levied against Epsilon, the complaint noted that the company has fallen $6.9 million into debt, and had to lay off 11 workers because of its drop in business, which it attributes to the OFAC investigation.


They have been doing some recent hires though...

12 Volt News - Epsilon


----------



## ryankenn

So what is happening over there? The new Rubi series was supposed to be out 1st quarter last year. Is it every coming out?


----------



## Micksh

ryankenn said:


> So what is happening over there? The new Rubi series was supposed to be out 1st quarter last year. Is it every coming out?


According to what I read, the Rubicon Nano was making it's debut at CES. So I assume they will be out soon.


----------



## kyheng

Looks like they are going for small size amps as a selling point.


----------



## dgage

kyheng said:


> Looks like they are going for small size amps as a selling point.


That's why I keep coming back to them. Small size and inexpensive. I bought a PPI P600.2 and Westco and I tested it against several other expensive amps. We used my JTR 212 home theater speakers, which are very sensitive, detailed, and revealing as well as a beefy 120V to 12V bench power supply to test them in the living room. I forget what source we used but it was an older top of the line Sony with separate DACs. For amps Westco had a McIntosh, upper end Zapco 2 channel, Zed Leviathan, as well as my test PPI P600.2. We switched back and forth between all of the amps and we couldn't hear any difference. Now granted my JTR 212 are very sensitive and easy to drive but as happened with some cheaper home amps, if the amp is noisy, you will hear a hiss from the speakers (because SOOO sensitive). We didn't notice any extraneous noise or any sound difference between the amps. We even took turns doing blind tests and we simply couldn't pick out the cheap PPI P600.2 amp. Am I saying the Epsilon amps are as good as much more expensive amps, maybe but not necessarily. But I am saying that they are really good sounding amps and are good enough for me and I'm a picky SQ guy. I plan to get the new Rubicon Nano RN5.2000 to drive my system which so far consists of Audio Frog GB25 midrange and Stereo Integrity TM65 midbbass. I plan to pick up an AF GB10 at some point and may go with larger kick panel midbasses. Still trying to figure out the sub situation but the AE SBP12s are standing out as well as ErinH's kickpanel subs.


----------



## kyheng

dgage said:


> That's why I keep coming back to them. Small size and inexpensive. I bought a PPI P600.2 and Westco and I tested it against several other expensive amps. We used my JTR 212 home theater speakers, which are very sensitive, detailed, and revealing as well as a beefy 120V to 12V bench power supply to test them in the living room. I forget what source we used but it was an older top of the line Sony with separate DACs. For amps Westco had a McIntosh, upper end Zapco 2 channel, Zed Leviathan, as well as my test PPI P600.2. We switched back and forth between all of the amps and we couldn't hear any difference. Now granted my JTR 212 are very sensitive and easy to drive but as happened with some cheaper home amps, if the amp is noisy, you will hear a hiss from the speakers (because SOOO sensitive). We didn't notice any extraneous noise or any sound difference between the amps. We even took turns doing blind tests and we simply couldn't pick out the cheap PPI P600.2 amp. Am I saying the Epsilon amps are as good as much more expensive amps, maybe but not necessarily. But I am saying that they are really good sounding amps and are good enough for me and I'm a picky SQ guy. I plan to get the new Rubicon Nano RN5.2000 to drive my system which so far consists of Audio Frog GB25 midrange and Stereo Integrity TM65 midbbass. I plan to pick up an AF GB10 at some point and may go with larger kick panel midbasses. Still trying to figure out the sub situation but the AE SBP12s are standing out as well as ErinH's kickpanel subs.


Well, last time I don't have a child, so I never bother on my boot's space. But now I can't since his stuffs will eat close to half of my boot's space. Anyway, been running Pioneer's 6 channels mini amp for quite some time, no regret on that.


----------



## dgage

kyheng said:


> Well, last time I don't have a child, so I never bother on my boot's space. But now I can't since his stuffs will eat close to half of my boot's space. Anyway, been running Pioneer's 6 channels mini amp for quite some time, no regret on that.


Yep. Having a family dictates a lot. The small amps allow us to have a good system and handle the family. Win, win. Now they need to hurry with releasing the Rubicon Nano RN5.2000.


----------



## 1fishman

dgage said:


> Yep. Having a family dictates a lot. The small amps allow us to have a good system and handle the family. Win, win. Now they need to hurry with releasing the Rubicon Nano RN5.2000.


So you think the RN5.2000 is going to preform as well as your TN2.600 did? 

I see them for sale online, eBay...


----------



## dgage

1fishman said:


> So you think the RN5.2000 is going to preform as well as your TN2.600 did?
> 
> I see them for sale online, eBay...


I actually had the PPI P600.2 I tested but I've recently been looking at the Soundstream Picasso Nano amps but I don't like the layout, I like the layout on the Rubicon Nano RN5.2000 (speaker jacks instead of molex plug and top-amp controls) and it has the power configuration I need to run tweets, mids, midbasses, and a pair of subs (pair of RN5.2000). Since they all use the same basic design I'm hoping that if they don't make any improvements, they at least leave it alone. I hope they don't go cheap and screw up a decent design.


----------



## kyheng

dgage said:


> Yep. Having a family dictates a lot. The small amps allow us to have a good system and handle the family. Win, win. Now they need to hurry with releasing the Rubicon Nano RN5.2000.


RN5.2000D | Soundstream
Is out, maybe can start shopping


----------



## dthor68

JoshHefnerX said:


> Noticed that the ref1.1000 was unavailable at the distributors and decided to email them. Anyone know anything about this?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Soundstream [mailto[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:12 AM
> To: joshhefner
> Subject: Re: Soundstream Contact Form
> 
> The entire Reference series amplifiers are discontinued.
> 
> On 5/15/2014 8:38 PM, joshhefner wrote:
> > ATTN: ordering-dept
> > From: Joshua Hefner
> > Email: joshhefner
> > Tel:
> > Message: Soundstream ref 1.1000 Had a question, all of the online distributors are saying this is discontinued and your own website says it\'s not available, however the others reference series do seem to be available. Is something being phased out or revamped?
> > IP: 70.190.191.26


I noticed that about 3 months back. I really do not understand why they did this. I have never heard anything bad about the Reference Line, old or new. I have had the "new" 760.4 since 2012 and it has been superb! I love it but it really is to big, almost 2' long! The Ref line was all they had going for them there other stuff is junk!


----------



## rton20s

kyheng said:


> RN5.2000D | Soundstream
> Is out, maybe can start shopping


According to one of the few places that has these listed online, they are scheduled to ship in April. So they probably still aren't out yet. 

Given Epsilon's business practices of late, I just don't understand why anyone would even want to give them their business. But, that is just my opinion.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> According to one of the few places that has these listed online, they are scheduled to ship in April. So they probably still aren't out yet.
> 
> *Given Epsilon's business practices of late, I just don't understand why anyone would even want to give them their business. But, that is just my opinion.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ^^^This above in bold^^^


----------



## hot9dog

Double that /\ /\ (in bold)


----------



## dgage

rton20s said:


> According to one of the few places that has these listed online, they are scheduled to ship in April. So they probably still aren't out yet.
> 
> Given Epsilon's business practices of late, I just don't understand why anyone would even want to give them their business. But, that is just my opinion.


I'm not aware of any issues with them. Have a link so I can educate myself? Thanks.


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## Darth SQ

dgage said:


> I'm not aware of any issues with them. Have a link so I can educate myself? Thanks.


How's this for starters?

Power Acoustik Edge Amplifiers Will Be Showcased At CES 2016 Under The... -- MONTEBELLO, Calif., Jan. 5, 2016 /PRNewswire/ --


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## HardCoreDore

I wonder if Epsilon still has to pay those huge Iranian Trade-Embargo fines since the Iranian Nuclear Deal ended the embargo?


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## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> How's this for starters?
> 
> Power Acoustik Edge Amplifiers Will Be Showcased At CES 2016 Under The... -- MONTEBELLO, Calif., Jan. 5, 2016 /PRNewswire/ --


Heck, you can just read through this very thread. Simple enough. The only person left to defend Epsilon and their brands was Ryan. Why did he defend them? Because he worked there. While there, he defended (in my opinion) some very shady practices and dishonest marketing. Where is he now? Certainly not at Epsilon. 

If you're interested in the new Rubicon Nanos, just pick up the Dual or Axxera equivalent. Essentially the same thing as the Picasso Nano and Ion lines, but the Rubicon has single side connections. If single side connections are a must, pick up a refurb Kenwood XR900-5 for a few bucks more.


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## rton20s

HardCoreDore said:


> I wonder if Epsilon still has to pay those huge Iranian Trade-Embargo fines since the Iranian Nuclear Deal ended the embargo?


I hope so. :laugh:


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## 1fishman

Has anybody heard anything from Mosconi about that appearance cloning?

It's hard for me to believe Epsilon could get away that, without some kind of arrangement or agreement with Mosconi. It's also hard to believe Mosconi would sell rights to copy there image. 

So bizarre. It's kind of like having a log cabin in the woods disguise as a 10 story high rise building on the outside. I just don't see who that is supposed to appeal to.


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## HardCoreDore

1fishman said:


> Has anybody heard anything from Mosconi about that appearance cloning?
> 
> It's hard for me to believe Epsilon could get away that, without some kind of arrangement or agreement with Mosconi. It's also hard to believe Mosconi would sell rights to copy there image.
> 
> So bizarre. It's kind of like having a log cabin in the woods disguise as a 10 story high rise building on the outside. I just don't see who that is supposed to appeal to.


I didn't see it initially, but you're right it's a blatant rip off. Unfortunately Apple is the only company that goes to the trouble (and legal cost) to patent "a look", or "a feel". 

Most other's know that copycats are part of doing business. In car audio it's been commonplace since the 80's. 

Thump vs Phoenix Gold M-Series comes to mind...


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## dgage

rton20s said:


> Heck, you can just read through this very thread. Simple enough. The only person left to defend Epsilon and their brands was Ryan. Why did he defend them? Because he worked there. While there, he defended (in my opinion) some very shady practices and dishonest marketing. Where is he now? Certainly not at Epsilon.
> 
> If you're interested in the new Rubicon Nanos, just pick up the Dual or Axxera equivalent. Essentially the same thing as the Picasso Nano and Ion lines, but the Rubicon has single side connections. If single side connections are a must, pick up a refurb Kenwood XR900-5 for a few bucks more.


Is someone trying to say they copied the look of a Mosconi amp? What's wrong with that...flattery and all? J/K. Guess I need to start over on the amp research. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out. 

Sad thing is Epsilon didn't need to copy Mosconi to be successful. They could have been successful without the copying. Sad and weak corporate management.


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## rton20s

dgage said:


> Is someone trying to say they copied the look of a Mosconi amp? What's wrong with that...flattery and all? J/K. Guess I need to start over on the amp research. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out.
> 
> Sad thing is Epsilon didn't need to copy Mosconi to be successful. They could have been successful without the copying. Sad and weak corporate management.


Shortcut your search... Kenwood Excelon XR900-5 5-channel car amplifier — 60 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 600 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield.com


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## kyheng

rton20s said:


> According to one of the few places that has these listed online, they are scheduled to ship in April. So they probably still aren't out yet.
> 
> Given Epsilon's business practices of late, I just don't understand why anyone would even want to give them their business. But, that is just my opinion.


Well, never been a Soundstream fan from the past, so don't really have interest of it.
Business are all about money, you set up a company, make some noise and waiting to be sold. Then open another business, this is some sort of trend.


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## rton20s

kyheng said:


> ...this is some sort of trend.


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## dgage

rton20s said:


> Shortcut your search... Kenwood Excelon XR900-5 5-channel car amplifier — 60 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 600 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield.com


Good deal. Thanks!


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## kyheng

rton20s said:


>


Well, this photo a bit off topic but, yeap, this is the trend that follows the same


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## xconcepts

I use to love the Ref series, wish I could find a Lil Wonder


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## DDfusion

They ripped of the Rockford Powers before. Nothing happened but increased sales


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## ellton

Hello,
I recently bought an SS TN2.600D and while bench testing it run really hot, even at very modest volume.
I measured 110 degrees fahrenheit after 45 minutes.
The amplifier was connected to a pair of Hertz HCX 690 and sounded really nice.
Anyone's relative experience will be really appreciated.

Thank you all in advance.


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## ryankenn

Woofers Etc. finally has the Rubicon Nano's in stock, hopefully a few reviews will start to trickle in.

Does anyone know if these are a copy of a current PPI/etc. amp that is already out and reviewed?


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## PPI_GUY

ryankenn said:


> Woofers Etc. finally has the Rubicon Nano's in stock, hopefully a few reviews will start to trickle in.
> 
> Does anyone know if these are a copy of a current PPI/etc. amp that is already out and reviewed?


I don't know if they share any internals with PPI amps already on the market...the newest incarnation of the Black Ice" series maybe? 
But, the liberal use of the "5000 watts" nomenclature both on the box and in the actual model number of their biggest mono-block tells me all I need to know. Soundstream is just another brand name that Epsilon will eventually trash in the search for maximum sales. Clearly marketed to the one-note crowd.
RN1.5000D - Soundstream Monoblock 2,500W RMS Class D Amplifier


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## wizzi001

ellton said:


> Hello,
> I recently bought an SS TN2.600D and while bench testing it run really hot, even at very modest volume.
> I measured 110 degrees fahrenheit after 45 minutes.
> The amplifier was connected to a pair of Hertz HCX 690 and sounded really nice.
> Anyone's relative experience will be really appreciated.
> 
> Thank you all in advance.


110 degrees is really hot?


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## ryankenn

PPI_GUY said:


> I don't know if they share any internals with PPI amps already on the market...the newest incarnation of the Black Ice" series maybe?
> But, the liberal use of the "5000 watts" nomenclature both on the box and in the actual model number of their biggest mono-block tells me all I need to know. Soundstream is just another brand name that Epsilon will eventually trash in the search for maximum sales. Clearly marketed to the one-note crowd.
> RN1.5000D - Soundstream Monoblock 2,500W RMS Class D Amplifier


True about the marketing, but it doesn't eliminate it from being a decent product. I'm a little surprised but this is priced to be above the Tarantula Nano, which seems to be a nice amp. I had waited on this to come out to get one in between the TNano and the Picaso but apparently I was wrong. I may just end up with that amp unless some really good things come out of these new ones.


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## HardCoreDore

ryankenn said:


> True about the marketing, but it doesn't eliminate it from being a decent product. I'm a little surprised but this is priced to be above the Tarantula Nano, which seems to be a nice amp. I had waited on this to come out to get one in between the TNano and the Picaso but apparently I was wrong. I may just end up with that amp unless some really good things come out of these new ones.


I'm willing to bet all 3 of them use the exact same quality boards, output transistors, and capacitors. I'd even bet that the architecture for each "line" is exactly the same. You probably won't notice a difference between any of them, other than the exterior design. Buy the cheap one... Or better yet buy from someone besides Epsilon.


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## ryankenn

There are plenty of threads about the Picaso and TNano, and they are not in any way the same amp, or capable of the same output. They are totally different amps, there are threads here and elsewhere with internal shots of them both.

Whether you like Epsilon or not, I'd still like to see what's inside the new Nano.


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## HardCoreDore

ryankenn said:


> There are plenty of threads about the Picaso and TNano, and they are not in any way the same amp, or capable of the same output. They are totally different amps, there are threads here and elsewhere with internal shots of them both.
> 
> Whether you like Epsilon or not, I'd still like to see what's inside the new Nano.


Honestly I haven't really kept up with them the last year or so. I have kept up with this thread though. If you say they're different, I'll take your word for it.


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## ellton

wizzi001 said:


> 110 degrees is really hot?


Thank you for your reply.

In terms of relativity and comparing the tn2.600d to a Hertz HDP5 and a Hifonics Thor VIII, the last two feel barely lukewarm at the same volume levels.

I'm a bit worried because being class d should be power efficient and running cooler.


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## Mike Bober

110° is barely above room temperature unless its the middle of winter...lol 110° is not considered hot at all for any electronics i would think.


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## kyheng

ellton said:


> Thank you for your reply.
> 
> In terms of relativity and comparing the tn2.600d to a Hertz HDP5 and a Hifonics Thor VIII, the last two feel barely lukewarm at the same volume levels.
> 
> I'm a bit worried because being class d should be power efficient and running cooler.


43°C are not that hot actually. 
It will even gets hotter once you install in your car. My JL Audio HD750/1 is 55°C during hot sunny days.
Just make sure to have proper ventilation to the amp and you are good.


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## rton20s

Wasn't it confirmed quite a while back that the new Rubicon Nano would have essentially the same internals as the Picasso Nano line, but more convenient single side connections and top cover controls?


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## ellton

kyheng said:


> 43°C are not that hot actually.
> It will even gets hotter once you install in your car. My JL Audio HD750/1 is 55°C during hot sunny days.
> Just make sure to have proper ventilation to the amp and you are good.


Update:

Amplifier car tested (after bench testing) and everything worked out fine.
It run for about 45 minutes in very high volume (sub mode & full range mode) and it run much cooler than during bench testing. Probably it was something wrong with my power supply.

The SS TN2.600D is super solid and clean so far. Blends very well with the Hertz HCX 690 speakers.

Not very satisfied with its electronic crossover function though. I prefer much better Audison Bit One to take over crossing the frequencies.


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## BMW Alpina

wow, there are 20 pages on this thread...
no I don't read all of them, but I do read some post of Ryan from Soundstream,
unfortunately his profile say he had not visit this website again since 2015,
so probably he is no longer working for Soundstream,

but if someone from Soundstream happened to read this,
I really hope you discontinue the Tarantula, 
I mean just the "Tarantula shape" not the amp itself...
That Tarantula make the Soundstream amp looks... cheap...
Soundstream was a serious brand,... what happened?

oh, and please built and sell a new amp that is a nice (both looks and performance) as the old Soundstream Class A and Reference line.

Long time ago, owning Soundstream Amp is like owning a Porsche,...
I was a very proud owner of Soundstream amp, oh I also owned Soundstream
active Xover and Soundstream Reference SS-12r Subwoofer.
now, I won't use any of Soundstream current product even if I get it for free...


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## rton20s

BMW Alpina said:


> wow, there are 20 pages on this thread...
> no I don't read all of them, but I do read some post of Ryan from Soundstream,
> unfortunately his profile say he had not visit this website again since 2015,
> so probably he is no longer working for Soundstream,
> 
> but if someone from Soundstream happened to read this,
> I really hope you discontinue the Tarantula,
> I mean just the "Tarantula shape" not the amp itself...
> That Tarantula make the Soundstream amp looks... cheap...
> Soundstream was a serious brand,... what happened?
> 
> oh, and please built and sell a new amp that is a nice (both looks and performance) as the old Soundstream Class A and Reference line.
> 
> Long time ago, owning Soundstream Amp is like owning a Porsche,...
> I was a very proud owner of Soundstream amp, oh I also owned Soundstream
> active Xover and Soundstream Reference SS-12r Subwoofer.
> now, I won't use any of Soundstream current product even if I get it for free...


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## Problypropylene

True story, I just bought some Sounstream RFM's on ebay "refurbished" with a 3 year warranty... supposedly. Little over $100. Were these really any better than the picasso nanos? I ordered an RFM600.4D and RFM700.1D. They seem like picasso nanos with a blue/gold case and slightly higher power ratings.


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## HardCoreDore

Problypropylene said:


> True story, I just bought some Sounstream RFM's on ebay "refurbished" with a 3 year warranty... supposedly. Little over $100. Were these really any better than the picasso nanos? I ordered an RFM600.4D and RFM700.1D. They seem like picasso nanos with a blue/gold case and slightly higher power ratings.


I'm not too familiar with those amps but I don't think they are particularly powerful. The fuse ratings should tell the complete picture as the 4 channel has a 40 amp fuse and the monoblock has two 25 amp fuses. I wouldn't say they're incapable, but I wouldn't exactly expect them to shock the world either... 

Unfortunately, as the many pages of this thread have said. Epsilon didn't sell many of the higher-end models of the Reference line, so they've gone back to making cheap cookie-cutter amps. It's a shame really. 

I did buy two of the Power series PPI amps that were based on the Reference Line architecture "on the cheap", once Epsilon decided to clearance them all out. I've been VERY HAPPY with them. They are VERY LARGE unfortunately which was the only downside. However they sound superb! 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Problypropylene

HardCoreDore said:


> I'm not too familiar with those amps but I don't think they are particularly powerful. The fuse ratings should tell the complete picture as the 4 channel has a 40 amp fuse and the monoblock has two 25 amp fuses. I wouldn't say they're incapable, but I wouldn't exactly expect them to shock the world either...
> 
> Unfortunately, as the many pages of this thread have said. Epsilon didn't sell many of the higher-end models of the Reference line, so they've gone back to making cheap cookie-cutter amps. It's a shame really.
> 
> I did buy two of the Power series PPI amps that were based on the Reference Line architecture "on the cheap", once Epsilon decided to clearance them all out. I've been VERY HAPPY with them. They are VERY LARGE unfortunately which was the only downside. However they sound superb!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yeah, I really want class D amps just for space saving and power consumption. I was pretty set on getting a couple Picasso nanos for my next project, so if these are at least as good as the pn's i'll be happy. The only thing externally different seems to be the crossovers with the PN's having the 80hz hpf/lpf switch and the RFM's have a knob with 35hz~250hz tunable. If I think these suck I'll try some JL XD's for a little more money. I'm just getting into SQ, so I think I'll be happy with the soundstream stuff for a while. I know their old class A and A/B stuff sounds better, but I don't want my amps taking up all that space anyway. JL HD and similar top end amps are just out of my price range.


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