# 2006 Honda Civic LX Sedan Build Neverending Tale



## ErinH

I'm no stranger to a build log... in fact, I have a ridiculously long one already on this site here which I started about 5.5 years ago. It documents all the gear I've been through, for better or worse. So, why start another? What's different? Well, as of 3 weeks ago, just about everything. And in a couple weeks the only thing that will remain is my headunit and amps; everything else has been switched out and I've even added a few things extra. All in the name of better sound. At some point, I want to reach the point where I just love rocking out without nitpicking it. The goal isn't as much sonic nirvana as a means to calm my OCD/ADHD tendencies and get back to the root of just really enjoying the music. So far, I think I'm on the best path toward that goal that I've ever been.

About a year ago I started trying to make a video tutorial on how to use the RTA. I realized quickly that I was going numerous directions with it and thought it best to just document steps as I tune my car and post up the measurements/results as I went. However, I spent most of the year changing gear, chasing the elusive quest of sound quality in car audio. I did alright at the end but wasn't happy with myself. I have now pretty much maximized what I'm able to use in the car and, based on all the things I've learned, I've reached the point that I will truly strive to focus solely on the aspects outside of gear chosen (with the exception of a few things I've already purchased but have yet to install). This means tuning and experimentation with new methods of tuning and the norm of car audio itself. 

Since I'm starting fresh with a lot of new gear, I wanted to start a new build log. One with a clean slate, much like the install itself. The goal of this thread isn't so much to highlight what I'm using as it is to document how I'm using it and the steps in tuning I'll be taking along the way. In a nutshell, this is going to be my tuning journal with some install type stuff thrown in; mostly at the front. 

If there's one thing I've learned since getting engulfed by this hobby it's the fact sound quality is both objective and subjective. Numerous measurements and research are available that explain the fundamentals of human hearing and subjective preference. There is also a lot of gray area because these studies aren't necessarily geared toward the closet sized car audio environment. Though, most of the principles remain and transfer to our hobby. 

This is a no secrets, full disclosure build log that will detail - to the best of my ability - the gear I've chosen and why, and the things I'm doing in the car to get the best sound I can. The goal of this build is really to help everyone out. My install choices aren't the same as everyone but there's still a lot to learn from each other as we work toward the goal of achieving the best sound we can in our car. Yea, it's subjective, but the best part is as you adapt and grow more accustomed to good sound, the more you are willing to experiment and try new things to further your knowledge. On the flip side, there are plenty of people with stock systems. Though, I believe those people can still benefit from a little more knowledge. It can't hurt. Right? 


Sometimes what I discuss here may work and other times it may not ... but that's kind of the fun of the journey. And, to be fair, I've learned much more from failing at things than I have from getting it right. Ultimately, I hope help folks learn from those mistakes... Help you understand why measurements are so beneficial and also where they have their pitfalls. Help you carry out the same things in your car and share in the enjoyment of a rockin' car stereo system. 


With that said, here goes...


- Erin


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## Octave

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No pics but just a description......hmmmm subscribed.....OF COURSE!!!!!!!!


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

First off, the car...


2006 Honda Civic LX Sedan with about 120k miles on the clock. I bought it as a baby with 7 miles on it about 7.5 years ago and I plan (hope) to have it for _many_ more years. I commute roughly 1.5 hours each day to and from work. On a good day, a bit over an hour. I spend a good deal of time in my car and I think that's one reason why I pay as much attention to the audio system as I do. The other reason I'm in this hobby is for the technical aspect of it. I just dig the science stuff and also the ability to use my hands. If not for car audio, I'm not sure I'd have amassed the tool collection I have... and that's a crazy thing to say. 


I just took the pictures. I just washed the car (it needed it pretty bad). I wish she always looked as clean... maybe one of these days I'll get it polished and waxed up but the years of interstate travel has taken the luminosity down a notch... or 5.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The gear I'm using consists of the following:

*Headunit**:* 
Pioneer DEX-P99RS


*DSP**:* 
Arc Audio PS8 (coming soon)


*Rear Fill Processing/Control**:* 
Rockford Fosgate RFQ5000


*Tweeter + Midrange**:*
Kef R300 Coaxial Driver


*Midbass**:*
JL Audio ZR800-CW


*Rear Fill**:*
JL Audio C5-650CW


*Subs**:*
Currently (2) AE IB15. Soon moving to (2) JL Audio 13tw5v2.


*Amps**:* 
(2) JL Audio HD900/5 (One for left side, one for right side). 
Tweeter off one channel (100w). 
Midrange off bridged channels (150w). 
Rear Fill off one channel (100w). 
Midbass off sub channel (500w).

(1) JL Audio HD1200/1 for subs.






and now... pictures of how it currently sits. Keep in mind, I'll be updating this with some pictures of the install itself in a bit. 


*Pioneer P99:*












*JL amps under seat. One HD900/5 and RFQ5000 are under the driver's seat. The passenger's seat has the other HD900/5 and HD1200/1.*


































*Trunk shot which currently has the AE IB15's in an IB wall. This will soon change to a pair of JL's 13tw5 subs for various reasons which I'll address later.*














*Rear fill pictures. I removed the OEM rear speaker covers to take these pictures. Otherwise, no one would ever know they're back there.*
























*Pictures of the front stage:*

Grilles on:












Grilles off:


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

some of the following is a copy/paste from my other build log. you may have already seen it but it really helps explain the what/why of things and saves me a lot of time retyping it.


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## quality_sound

This is gonna be good.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I do a lot of speaker testing and post the data to my site (in my sig). I dig it. The cool part is I'm able to share my passion with those who are interested in the science side of things and I am always learning about new things/methods. Most of it isn't really *new*. It's just new to me or I've just now really tried it. I spend a lot of time testing speakers/drivers both objectively and subjectively. I rarely talk about the subjective as it's.. well... subjective. But in the past year or so, I've really started to understand the teachings of the audio 'gods' such as Floyd Toole, Linkwitz, Geddes, etc. Their works have all helped pushed my understanding as a hobbyist further. This ultimately winds up becoming a basis for my current installment of my car stereo, y0!

This is probably going to be a long read so grab some coffee if you care to read further. *shrugs*



Last year I competed in MECA and did alright. Not near as well as I had hoped but given that I was always changing crap, I guess I could only expect to do so good. I made it to Finals and got 5th out of about 9 in my group. I had a fun time hanging out with friends but spent much of my time trying to tune my car thanks to me *once again* switching out all sorts of crap within a few days (though, to be fair, it was mainly due to equipment faults). Anyway, one big thing I took away from MECA Finals last year is I want a car that really takes it to the next level. To do that, I needed to really buckle down on an install and tune what I had rather than switching gear like underwear. That meant getting gear installed the way that made the most sense theoretically and physically and working on the tuning aspect over a period of time; something I hadn't done in ... well... ever. *shrugs*

Listening to Mark Eldridge's car is an experience, to say the least. His car transcends conventional car stereo like nothing I've ever heard. It does a great job of removing the 'sound in a tin can' effect we get in car audio. The soundstage is HUGE; expanding far beyond the physical boundaries of the car. The image is about as perfect as one would expect without sacrificing staging cues (something I constantly run in to personally). Tonality is very nice and enjoyable (I can't define accuracy here as I'm still learning). And this is all from the passenger seat! The driver's seat is even better.  

To be frank, listening to Eldridge's NASCAR from the passenger seat beats listening to any other vehicle from the driver's seat. It's just that good. There's a lot of details involved to get this but most of it just isn't feasible for me in a daily driver. And, while I've done some things some people can't do in their cars (ie: larger speaker pods thanks to the Civic's pillar windows), I think most all of us here are in the same boat. That said, I still was aware of things that would be worth a shot to escape the car stereo norm. So, I messed around with a few things over the winter that I thought might help me to achieve the goal of taking my car to the next level. At some point, I really do plan to update this thread with some of these in more detail and explain why I did what I did. I've just not found the time. But, to make a real quick rundown here are the highlights:

Ambiophonics
Quadrophonics
3 channel front stage using a Center Channel via summed mono
5 channel front stage (L-R, L, C (summed mono), R, R-L)
Rear Fill using simple difference signal (ie: L-R)
Rear Fill using Dolby PLII


Here's a picture of the setup I used to test rear fill methods:












The three channel stereo stuff is not new. Initially, stereo was three channels. But mfg's didn't think people could afford three speakers to the standard use of stereo involved two speakers.

There's plenty of info on Google regarding this so I won't bother to link everything. The more interesting things I read can be found here, though:
http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/Three_channels_A4.pdf
Gerzon Archive
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/..._Logic_II_Decoder_Principles_of_Operation.pdf

Most of Gerzon's more interesting - to me - work seems to be centered around matrix and recording (mic'ing) procedures.

I tested each of these using some random stereo pieces in my garage. Some of the methods worked really well and were really cool. Others, such as ambio, not so much. I should caveat this with saying that I didn't go through extreme lengths to vet each method. My method was simple: how well does each type of setup perform 'out of the box'. If it performed well, it was worth further pursuit. If not... kick it to the curb.

I settled on a couple from the list above. The next step was to do in car testing. This is where I ran in to trouble. While I had done some testing before, ultimately I realized the car just wasn't going to permit the really cool stuff without considerable dash work and I wasn't for that. That means just about everything was scrapped and I was back to conventional 3-way setup again up front. But, it sure was interesting... maybe one day I can do give it a shot again. Scratch that off the list!


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

_Let me preface this by again noting:
I'm just a dude playing with stereo using ideas and principles others way smarter than me have provided 20, 30, 40+ years ago. I don't intend to come off as a know it all. These are just my recent endeavors which contribute to my reasons for changing some things in my car._ 



Around the time my dreams were shot, I ordered some Kef stuff to test. The first was the HTS3001SE followed by the Q100. I chose these because I figured it was time to give a coax a chance. Zaph did testing on the Q100 driver last year and it looked really good but I didn't see a way for me to really use it. Ahhhhh.... anyway, it was just another thing for me to test and wound up being something I really felt hit the mark. Kef wound up making it in the car because of my results. 

Unlike standard coax designs, these drivers implement the tangerine waveguide for the tweeter to help provide a more evenly distributed response off-axis. And this is the reason I was so intrigued by these. The more I've experimented with speakers, the more I've found what truly matters is sound power. HD, IMD, etc... that's great to measure to make sure there's no issues. But by far and large the most important aspect of a speaker system performance is the linear distortion (frequency response) on and off-axis. Toole's research shows this and I'm just now realizing the importance of his studies. Linkwitz and Geddes all share similar results. Some links here:
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20130211/5270.pdf
http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about_audio/loudspeakers_rooms.pdf
Constant directivity loudspeaker designs

The cliff's notes version is that smooth response characteristics is prevalent. And not just on-axis. Off-axis response matters just as much because it contributes to envelopment. That's probably the butchered summary, though. Feel free to do your own research.

A MAJOR component of sound power, outside of smooth off-axis response on the high end, is the fact response matching between two speakers is not trivial. It's the most single important aspect of speaker design that I can think of. Of course, having a good drive unit to start with is still key here as well. It goes back to the whole idea of beaming. We all hear that a sub is omindirectional. This isn't really true. It's omni, but only to a point. This point where it's no longer omni is often referred to as 'beaming'. We see that term used a lot to describe when a speaker gets bright... but that's not really the accurate definition. Beaming is the point where the driver no longer radiates sound evenly based on frequency. However, a driver doesn't just beam at a certain point. It's a gradual effect. At the point where the driver's diameter is approximately equal to 1/2 wavelength it's playing, the response begins to drop off-axis; this is beaming. Note: Really, it's closer to 1/3 or 1/4th, but 1/2 is a good rule of thumb. The further off axis and/or higher in frequency you go, the more directional the sound from the driver is.

For example, let's look at the Scan Speak 10f midrange.
The Madisound Speaker Store

This is called a 4" mid, but the diameter is only about 78mm, measured from surround to surround. That's roughly 3 inches.
13,500 (speed of sound in/s) / 3inches = 4,500 hz.

This number is just the wavelength in sound of 3 inches. We need to get one-half of this to determine approximate beaming. So, we get:
4500hz/2 = ~ 2250hz

The above means at about 2250hz, the response between on axis vs off axis begins to diverge. Looking at the measurements below, you can see this is pretty close to an accurate calculation:









By the time you reach 4khz, the response between 0 degrees (on axis) and 30 degrees off-axis is about 3dB down. I know Vance Dickison in Voice Coil often references the 3dB point as a notional crossover point. This means you'd want to mate a tweeter with this midrange at (at least) 4khz in order to maintain some type of wavefront symmetry.

Big picture: at the crossover point, there the goal should be to have no difference in the mid's off-axis dispersion and the tweeters's dispersion. Ideally this means, while the tweeter is omni on the low end (again, it doesn't beam until the wavelength is about 1/2 the driver diameter) the mid is - or at least very close to - omnidirectional. This is why tweeters with low Fs are so widely used when paired with a 6.5" midwoofer.

So, two major aspects of speaker/system design:

Good sound power; with no holes in response due to improper crossover points and/or slopes being used between drivers
Smooth off-axis response that doesn't have large peaks and nulls in response. It doesn't have to be flat. But it does need to be smooth! Toole has done research regarding the smoothness of the response of a driver within the crossover points used, which is a bit different than what I'm discussing regarding smooth off-axis response. Essentially, FR smoothness versus directivity index.

Paradigm does a good job at explaining this on their site here:
The Low-Down on Dispersion - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.

But, here's some pictures they use to describe it.
Mismatched dispersion where the woofer and tweeter have a higher crossover point and the woofer is beaming:










Now, here's a lower crossover point used where the woofer and tweeter share similar dispersion:











What does this really mean, though? IME, as stated above, it contributes to envelopment. When the crossovers are set such that the off-axis response between mid and tweeter blend extremely well, there is no 'hole' in the response. The sound is spread throughout the listening environment and what you get is a shared chaos that kind of takes the room by the hand and says "come join me, dude". The soundstage opens up... like BAM! Staging and instruments on the stage are much more spread out (when needed) and things just *sound* more natural. How real it sounds depends on the response curve itself but if you're building a proper crossover point with all the above information in mind, odds are you're also using drivers with very good response or at least crossing within the band before the response gets hideous.


To get good sound power, proper crossover use is absolutely necessary. This isn't trivial. When you separate speakers by some distance you also have to account for lobing of the two wavefronts along with other details that I can't even recall. Ideally, you'd have one driver that does everything. This is why wideband/fullrange drivers are so popular. However, they have issues of their own. One large issue being modal issues which can make for very poor response both on and (especially) off axis. Some companies have gotten to the point where these issues are tamed but no one has perfected it. I just don't see it ever happening. So, it's a tradeoff.

The alternative is to use a Coaxial speaker. They are rife with their own issues. I've used car audio and home audio coax speakers in the past and not been impressed. They all had issues. Especially the ones with the tweeter mounted above the mid. Coax's with the tweeter mounted inside the woofer are considered concentric and have large benefits, yet even those are problematic in response. The Seas designs like these have nasty resonances in the mid and tweeter. A couple years ago my buddy Kirk was trying to get me in to Tannoy dual concentrics but I was too naive to understand the benefits. Since then, I've come around. I tested the Kef HTS3001SE, Q100 and R300 coax drive units recently and was very impressed by the results; both objectively and subjectively.
Kef’s HTS3001SE… I cracked the Egg! | Medley's Musings
Kef Q100 Speaker Drive Unit Testing | Medley's Musings
Kef R300 Midrange Drive Unit Testing | Medley's Musings


Each is a step up with the HTS3001SE drivers being on the low end and the R series being the top. However, even the lower level Q100 bookshelves ($400-450 used on ebay for a set) are far beyond any standard 2-way speaker design I've heard yet. At their price point, there's nothing I've heard better.

Kef also makes and employ smaller, lower cost version concentric speakers in the 1005SE:
KEF KHT1005.2SE Home Audio Speaker System w/ White Satellite Speakers - Newegg.com
I have yet to test these, but the big difference besides size (these are about 3 to 3.5"; the others are no less than 4.5") is the fact they do not use the tangerine waveguide. There are obviously other differences.

After testing these and enjoying them so much, it seemed only natural to make them part of my install. Right?... I mean, I change gear all the time so why not...

The HTS3001SE would be a good choice as it's a bit smaller but I wasn't a fan of the plastic basket so much. The Q100 is a great midwoofer/tweeter combo so that was an option. Unfortunately it's OD is just a touch too large for my use. The R300 driver comes from a $1200 set... OUCH. You can't buy these separately, either. Luckily, someone who is a fan of my site helped me out here and I wound up getting a set of R300's. They're large... very large. And much more a dedicated midrange with design implementations to carry out this task (shorting rings, ribbed cone). So, that's what I chose. And that's what the goal of the recent pillar build was to house. So, here is what is in my pillars now:











Now, back to this whole crossover design junk... this is where passive systems fail because no one knows where the mid and tweeter will be installed. It's kind of a crap shoot. Active allows you the opportunity to set the crossover points yourself, for your own install, and hopefully get a better sound. Well, you can't really measure the car for crossover points directly, though there are methods you can try that would help you get there... it just would take a while. There's no way to really simulate a car install for the purpose of taking measurements because you can't simulate a tweeter in a pillar and a mid in a door. This is where having the concentric design is really cool. Since the mid and tweeter are designed together I can measure them on my baffle to determine the best crossover points and settings. So, I mounted the drive unit on my test baffle and connected the Arc Audio PS8 to my amp. I ran the speaker active and then started playing with crossover points, focusing on maintaining a smooth response on and off-axis and having no holes or bumps at the crossover point when measured off axis. If the crossover point between these two are good out of the car, then I know I'm starting with the best basis I can before it even gets in the car. One could argue against this but it seems to have worked very well based on my own subjective evaluation.

Here is the result I landed on. The crossover between mid and tweeter was about 3khz with an LR2 slope. The measurements are 0, 30, 45, 60 and 90 degrees. There is no EQ.










When I averaged all the above together and smoothed the response to 1/3 octave, I get this:
http://medleysmusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/drive-unit-average-one-third.png

In some ways, it very much emulates the JBL MS-8 target curve. This is simply a function of Kef's design seemingly targeting smooth sound power, which is all rooted in Toole's research mentioned way above.











Now, on to the car install and results....


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Once I decided I wanted to use the R300 coax driver, I started ordering supplies. My buddy, Steve Cook, a very highly regarded install and SQL competitor (former SPL with records to show for it) and owner of Audio X in Florence, AL suggested a few items to get the job done. 

So, here's a small list of stuff I picked up:

404 Polyester Resin from US Composites
Nashua Foil Tape (from Lowe's or Home Depot)
Fiberglass Mat from US Composites


After talking to Steve about this I decided to just have him (all but) do it for me. I suck at fiberglass work. I do really enjoy it.. really. I just suck at making things look good and I don't have a lot of spare time since my wife works nights. For the sake of time and cosmetics, I headed to Steve's. 

I purchased a spare set of OEM pillars to hack up. Picked them from a junkyard for about $22 total... I had paid about $80 for a pair on ebay last time. 
I showed up and we decided fitting the 5" drivers wasn't going to be easy. But, we made it work after cutting up the pillars a bit to make room. We secured the rings via CA glue and some plastic staples he has (those things are awesome, btw). Once the rings were secured, we taped off an outer mold with the aluminum tape. Since the tape is sticky on the inside, he showed me that you could just lay FG mat on the tape from the inside and it stays put. Resin was applied. Then the tape was removed. Kitty hair and bondo were used to fill in voids and then sanded smooth. 


All in all, it turned out really good in MUCH less time than I would have spent doing it myself.


Here are some build pictures.




























































































Spray glued:






















Once the build up was complete and the materials dried, we wrapped them in headliner fabric purchased from JoAnn's Fabric Store.. It is backed with about 1/4" of foam. Here's a picture of it:


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I needed to make some rings to hide the speakers when needed. I didn't want anything permanent, such as stretching cloth over the pillars, so rings made sense. Magnets seemed the best way to go for ease of access in case it's ever needed. Steve found a set of chrome rings at a truck stop and had them in his shelves. We checked the size and they fit pretty well. The OD is a bit larger but the cool part is the holes were lined up for my speakers and since they're metal, magnets stick already. So I got those from him and started working on them tonight. 

I sanded down the ring where needed then applied CA glue to the ring in the spots needed, placed the magnets in those spots, then sprayed accelerator. I got the glue and accelerator from Amazon. It can be purchased just about anywhere apparently, though. Here:
Bob Smith 106 Insta-Cure 1/2oz Gap Filling - Amazon.com

Insta-set accelerator pump 2oz Bob Smith Ind. - Amazon.com


I cut some grille cloth to a square and got it ready. I used spray glue on the rings and laid them face down on to the cloth, and held in place until dry. Not sure this will hold forever, but I'll see. I then just stretched the cloth tight before the glue dried and then trimmed off the excess. Took me longer than it would a halfway decent installer, but it turned out alright. 
































Lessons learned: I sprayed too much glue the first time and when I stretched the cloth it just slid and drug glue across, exposing the chrome. It doesn't really show through unless you're looking for it. But just a caution to anyone that might try this sometime. 

Also, keep a roll of painter's tape around. it helps to pick up any overspray or glue that got on your fingers and then on your fresh new cover rings.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Finished pictures:









































Here are some pictures of the driver, not covered by the grille.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So, how does it sound?

The result is easily the best 'out of the box' sound I've ever heard in my car. I spent about two hours on tuning the car, getting basics such as T/A and levels right. Out the gate, the mid and tweeter blending is superb. Absolutely the best I've ever had it in my car. Obviously, at least to me, the concentric design and appropriate crossover points is the fundamental reason why. FWIW, I also chose to use LR2 slopes based on not only measurement, but listening tests as well. I asked my wife to switch presets back and forth on the PS8 so I could demo LR2 vs LR4 and always chose the LR2 as the one that sounded better. I may even have my notebook paper on my bench for proof. The difference I noticed was the dynamics were better. Sound just had more pop to it and it wasn't prematurely cut off. The breadth of the stage actually seemed better as well. This was akin to flipping tweeter phase only back and forth... it sounds different... just couldn't quite put my finger on it. But, outside of depth, there was a pretty nominal improvement. I had somewhat hoped LR4 would sound better as it provides a bit more tweeter protection but it doesn't seem to be an issue anyway so I ran with it.

In the car, I chose to toe the driver's side speaker to about 15-20 deg off axis. This was done to lessen the need to attenuate the top end but also to keep the driver from sticking out on the dash further than I had wanted. There's another reason I did this, too. Stereo research I had done pointed at the best setup as being 30 degrees toward the listener, when the listener is at center. So, I chose to aim for something like this. Where both speakers are aimed the same way with respect to center (of the car). The idea was simply that if I did this, I could then attenuate the near side and delay properly. That would result in the sound arriving closer to the same time. 

*Even though the direct response on axis isn't the same, it's negligible because the entire radiated sound that I hear is a result of EVERYTHING in the car. This again gets back to what Linkwitz, et al discuss. I don't want to separate the environment. There's no way to do it realistically. So, if you can't beat em... join em. That notion has resulted in the best sound I've had yet. It would not work if I weren't paying special attention to sound power, though.*

YMMV.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and on to the kicks...


I really wanted to squeeze some shallow 10's up front. Not for basshead reasons as much as basshead oriented SQ reasons. You'll understand in a bit...

I tried my hand at it but there's just no space in the little ol' Civic. Luckily, however, the kicks made it easy to house a set of 8" midbasses. I had used the JL ZR800's a couple years back but they took up more room than I wanted, as I was unable to hollow out the kicks. Flash forward to now and I had no issues with notching the kicks to allow an 8". 

If you've followed this build you know the kicks previously housed the Scan Speak Illuminator 18wu which were AP'd to the outside world using the Scan Speak variovents and some material I used to tame the enclosure Qtc. The JL ZR800's like to be open on the back thanks to their higher Qts (and likely higher Vas, I'd imagine) so I simply removed the material I had sandwiched in the variovents and the JLs vent externally with no material to lower the impedance. I have yet to take actual impedance measurements but they work well and I don't really see a need to do this as they are installed in the manner JL recommends (nearly pure IB). 

All said and done, the kicks stick out about 1/2" further than they used to which isn't bad at all. A fair trade off for the extra output. I need to trim the carpet so it's not bunched up as shown below but I was in a hurry to get the car together and the last concern on my mind at the time was bunched up carpet. 

I used some very heavy duty metal mesh to protect the drivers; the same stuff I used to shield the Scans from damage. I can stomp on the grill and not have worries. And with the automotive carpet overlaid on them, there's weather guard as well. 


My impressions of these are: WOW. Of course, what would one expect with 8's in a proper enclosure in the floor. I have had nothing but compliments on the midbass so far. I had to use the usual cuts in EQ to help tame some cabin resonances at the listening position. Namely, 125hz on the left side. This had to be cut about 3dB. Both the left and right EQ have cuts at 125 and 160hz. I have a pretty nasty mode at about 142hz but can't touch it with a graphic EQ so I have to use the 2 bands nearest to that problem frequency I do have. When the PS8 goes back in the car I'll be using it's PEQ extensively for these problems. I also had to do a couple small cuts at 63, 80, and 100hz to shape out some tonality things. But, overall, this is the best midbass response I've had. Not even in terms of sheer output (which they certainly have), but in terms of blending. The JLs are crossed at 40hz/12dB and playing up to 200hz/24dB, if memory serves. To blend the sub all it took was proper level matching and some cutting of the sub at 30hz by about 4dB (if you model the AE's in a largish box which is essentially what the trunk is you'll see why). This helped immensely to get rid of some pull to the rear while still providing the output needed. 40 and 50hz were shaped by about 0.5dB to 1dB depending on driver and side (left or right), again, to help shape out the response and blend the mid/sub together. Overall, I'm extremely happy with the switch the 8's. It afforded me output but most importantly, it made the job of blending to the sub much easier and I have yet to have run out of steam on the low end. It may not be bonecrushing but it certainly can be if I choose to let it be. 

























test fit:












Installed.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I mentioned some of the EQ things I did above and I thought it would be a nice segueway in to discussing some measurement methods I use. This might be helpful to others and hopefully ultimately save you some time when you start doing your own. 


You probably know of the importance of a good spatial average when RTA'ing your system. If not, please read the attached PDF by Geddes which is a study he did for Ford Automotive. It's not too technically heavy which should keep the "I don't like science" excuses to a minimum. 

The cliffs version is simply this: your car (and home) are wrought with reflection inducing panels/walls. When measuring response in the environment, you have two options: 

"Gate" the response so you obtain only the response of the speaker you're trying to measure and you essentially ignore everything else.
Measure everything: speaker response and reflections.

Doing the first in the car?... good luck. How about... don't bother. At least not until you've gotten really good at measuring and understanding what you're measuring. Let's just say for all intents and purposes you won't be doing the first... like... ever (thank you, Taylor Swift, for making that phrase weird now). Really, it's just pretty much trivial unless you have a very specific goal and understanding of how to achieve it this way. 

So, we do the second option. The issue, then, is the fact every measurement you take is a measurement of _EVERYTHING _occurring at the mic. This is good and it's bad. It's good in the way that there's not a whole lot you can do to the speaker itself so it kind of keeps you from worrying about it. - Although, this is why I really encourage people to study independent tests or do their own to understand the issue(s) with the speakers they've chosen _before they use them in the car_. - It's bad because, thanks to the nature of the reflective environment, you can't really trust a single point measurement (a measurement taken with the mic in one location). If you move the mic as little as one-half inch you'll get a different result. Most notably in the higher frequencies. *This means RTA'ing your car for any desired curve by using one mic measurement is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME*. It's ideal to take multiple measurements in the "head area" and average them together. TrueRTA, OmniMic, and REW allow you to do this pretty easily. Then you have what is known as a good spatial average. It's not an exact method but it's the most realistic and approximates a very realistic response in the seated position. 

For this spatial average I usually just do six measurements total at/near the headrest broken in to (2) sets of (3) measurements. Each set is with the mic pointed forward; one in the center and one to each side of the center a couple inches over. The first set at one level. The second set is simply done by raising the seat height up. If your seat moves forward when raising it, keep in mind your level will rise by just a touch thanks to the mic being closer to the speakers. Not an issue but just wanted to note it. 

Now I've got 6 measurements. What next? Simple: average them all together to get one measurement.

Here's an example....

All six measurements taken by the method described above (no smoothing applied):













Same as above, but with 1/3 Octave smoothing:














All of the above averaged in to one response:















Let's talk about the above... at least my personal take on the above. I'm sure others may key on to some other aspects I might otherwise ignore or just overlook. 

Notice how the response varies more the higher you get in frequency? This is exactly why I said using a single point measurement to tune to a curve is a very bad idea. 

I'm going to ignore the shape of the curve, however, for this post... what I really want to focus on is midbass/subbass response, so let's look below 300hz. Anyone notice the one glaringly different thing about the response below this frequency versus the response above it? No matter where the measurement was taken, the response is pretty much the same. This is the critical frequency area (schroeder frequency (Fs)). Linkwitz gives the most simple definition I can think of here:


> The frequency fs is also called the Schroeder frequency and denotes approximately the boundary between reverberant room behavior above and discrete room modes below.


Which makes sense, right? Look again at the graphs I provided. Reverberation is occurring above about 300hz as evidenced by the diverging responses from the 6 head area measurements. Below this, the response is pretty constant in this area so it is modally (sp?) dominated. What does this mean to us? *You can ignore spatial averaging (multiple measurements) when focusing on low(er) frequency response! This saves you time!* Of course, every car is different so I suggest you always do a spatial average to determine where this Fs occurs in your car, but you can expect it to occur around the 200-400hz area, depending on car size. The larger the 'room' the lower the Schroeder frequency. This means once you do a spatial average you'll know where this frequency is. From then on, when you only care about working on the low frequency response, you can ignore spatial averaging and just put the mic at the seated position and measure, tune, measure, tune, rinse, wash, repeat until you're satisfied. I will caveat this by saying that tuning low frequency response with graphic EQ's isn't easy because modal peaks and dips are often too narrow and too specific of a frequency to effectively be targeted by graphic EQs. This is where my subsequent posts will sort of pick up. 



*Cliffs:*

Tuning based on one mic measurement is a waste of time. This has a caveat...
Take a few measurements in the head area, where you sit. Look at them all overlaid. Where do they really start to diverge? This is your car's Schroeder frequency.
Above the Schroeder frequency you must take multiple measurements and average them if you want to tune via RTA.
Below the Schroeder frequency, one mic measurement will suffice since the response doesn't change enough to matter.
Graphic EQs aren't the best tool for fixing response issues low in frequency. Parametric EQs are MUCH better. But, if all you have is a graphic use it to the best of your potential.

I'll stop there before people gloss over. Next post...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Taking off from the above, I'm only going to focus on the response below 300hz (graphs are out to 400hz for the sake of resolution). 

The following is with no EQ. Time alignment and levels have been set, however.

First off, let's take a look at the difference measured from the driver's seat vs the passenger's seat. 











The results show the same response show pretty much the same curves above 70hz. I've seen this numerous times; almost as if the car has varying Schroeder frequencies. One is for the entire cabin; the other is for one location at a time. Of course, I'm not talking about moving the mic to the rear of the car... that's an entirely different can of worms. The point in this measurement, however, is to show that there is actually a sub-band that really needs attention below the seated Schroeder frequency: the midbass band is entirely subject to this. As shown, 70hz is the starting point for different results between seats but 300hz is about the starting point for different results within the same seat. So, 70hz to 300hz is gonna be a total PITA in my car. Through about 5 years of dealing with this same car, my measurements show me what I already know, so it's definitely been vetted. 



Next...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

After doing that, it's time to get back to the driver's seat and start measuring response from there.

One might choose to measure the system response as a whole and use the RTA that way, but it's a bit more conclusive to study each individual side's response (left and right side response). This is easy to do: just pan the balance to one extreme or the other and measure. When you do, you'll have the left side stereo contribution vs the right side stereo contribution.

So, here we have just that. Panned left is Green. Panned right is Purple. No EQ. 1/12 octave (to show the crappy little modal stuff that 1/3 doesn't get).











What this really shows me is that both the left and right side stereo contributions have their own problems. Notice that slight dip around 85hz at the driver's seat? Everyone has that problem to some degree because of their proximity to the speaker. Bottom line, that dip is a cancellation mode. There's nothing I can do to fix it, either. I can EQ it up but what will happen is I'll just keep applying more power to the driver's side midbass, causing distortion to ramp up and likely audible issues due to it. And while it may raise the response there, it'll also make resonant modes more problematic. The potential to damage the driver certainly exists. There's just not a whole lot you can do here. Some EQ will help but if you try to flatten it out by adding 4-5dB of EQ you'll alter the response curve in a negative way and create other issues. The only way to really fix a problem like this is to move from the boundary causing the null or move your driver(s). So, I just ignore this. Truth be told, it's not a real big issue when listening. And this is just one more example of why you should not rely entirely on the RTA. You should always use your own ears to accompany what you've measured. If you have a narrow dip it's not as audible as a broad dip; the same goes for a bump in response. 

So, yea... I'm not going to sweat that dip at 85hz measured at the driver's seat. It's a lost cause and serious waste of time to try to flatten it. I just want to smooth it so a bit of EQ here and there will help that. 


Now, look at the rest of the curves. That dip around 85hz on the left side is exacerbated by the rise in response around 125hz. After looking at the decay plot, measured by REW, I see why...











This is a plot of response over time, laid out in 2-D. The highest levels are closer to the initial response time. As the graphs change color below one another, you're seeing 'slices' of the response in time. Look at the legend. It shows time in milliseconds (ms). Each color corresponds to a time slice/section. Ideally want to see is each slice dying out quickly and contributing less and less to the results. However, what you actually get is modal issues showing up... these are the ones that linger around and don't taper off smoothly. Looking at these plots is pretty subjective and really should be used with some subjective listening as well. But, I'll give some thoughts on how I look at it...

The 125hz issue showing up in the left side FR plot... now look at the decay plot around that frequency. See how the darker blue looks pretty mountainous here with a dominant spike at about 125hz? Notice how the shade of blue just before this has the same spike? This is an indication of a modal issue. Luckily, I have an EQ band right here... I can cut it some. The problem, however, is cutting here also affects the tonality in other ways. With a parametric EQ, I can set a narrow Q and cut accordingly. But, I don't have that, so I have to cut here with the 31 band EQ. Here is the result when I use the EQ to cut 125hz by 3dB:











Not surprisingly, there was no miraculous alteration of the issue. It cut the problem by 3dB as it should but it didn't make the ringing issue go away. It did lessen the effect some. This is where subjective listening will tell you if it helped. The drawback here is you also changed the tonality of the system because the Q (bandwidth) of the 1/3 octave equalizer is so wide; it doesn't just change a single frequency. 

This site is a great reference for what frequencies influence what you hear and can help you understand the tradeoffs you deal with when changing EQ bands to fix problem areas:
Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network



There are other frequencies that do the same thing. 100hz definitely lingers. 83hz lingers as well. Remember earlier my bit about bumping up 80hz to fill in that hole caused by the left side response? What do you think happens when you do that regarding the modal issues? It's a nasty problem. What you really need is a way to target specific modes without negatively affecting the other areas you want to fix with standard EQ methods. This would be a really good intro in to why parametric EQs are so good. So, I'll stop here and pick up there when I have the chance.

Keep in mind I've only really discussed one component of the system response here. The right side response has it's own problems as well. 


*Cliffs:*

Room modes suck. They muddy up system response as a whole.
When the midbass is muddy it overshadows everything good about the rest of the system. 
All cars have modal issues smack in the midbass area. 
Standard EQ can only go so far. But when properly used, EQ can help tame some of the modes which results in a much more tonally pleasing car stereo and much better blending with sub on the low end and midrange on the high end.

/



Hope this stuff helps you guys out! 


- Erin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll be doing some accelerometer testing on my pillars at some point to determine if they are contributing to any audible spikes in response or if it's really speaker/environment based. It's a form of nonlinear distortion but likely structure borne. If I can determine it is the pillar itself, then I should be able to narrow down the point at which it's excited and treat it with duct seal or CLD. It's a bit of work but it beats just throwing stuff at something and hoping it works.

LAUD has some good stuff on using an accelerometer with the RTA here:
Using LAUD with ACCELEROMETERS


I also found this, 
http://www.thaihdbox.net/audioxpress/2011/06audioXpress_June2011.pdf
which is geared more toward building your own setup. It's pretty in depth but there's some good basic information on using an accelerometer. Notice that both sources recommend the same accelerometer (of which I already own two ).
ACH-01-04/10 Measurement Specialties, Inc. | Mouser

The price is excellent. $25+shipping for the very popular accelerometer. 

My issue is bonding these to the structure I'm testing. There are numerous methods; each with their own advantages and issues. There are some really good tutorials on this. One I like is here:
http://www.wilcoxon.com/knowdesk/mounting.pdf

and this is one specifically about gluing:
https://www.endevco.com/news/archivednews/2006/2006_10/tp312.pdf


Given magnetic acceleromets are so easy to attach and have the best response, I've shopped around for magnetic accelerometers but the more I look, the more I think the ACH-01 is the best value. And given we're not doing industry standard type measurements, as long as your device and source are well calibrated in terms of FR (which the ACH-01 is), the information you can obtain even with a less than stellar method of coupling the accelerometer will suffice, it seems. Based on my experience, as long as the accelerometer is held in place, it does the job just fine. I've used duct seal, double sided tape and even super glue.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I hesitated to post this, but since I mentioned I will update this thread with things that work and didn't work, I feel it's worth noting...

With this setup, I had about 2 hours of tuning done to it before competing in my first MECA event for 2013. I didn't really have a lot of expectations but still wanted to do well. You know... hoping high, expecting realistically low. 

I wound up getting an average of 82.x points. This is the highest score I've ever had in MECA. Out of about 20 people (I think), I had either the 3rd or 4th highest score that day. For 2 hours' tune, I was very happy. 

It netted me first in my class, though no one else was there in my class competing so it's not easy to gauge my performance in that regard. Still, to come out better than I ended last year with a new install and hardly any tuning tells me that my choice to change gear and the reasons for making the equipment choices I did paid off. I wasn't running rear fill at the time so my next show will be my first show to compete using rear fill, which I'll discuss soon.


----------



## cyrusthevirus23

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

great hu always wanted one of those but i cant see myself spending a grand on a hu.


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## MacLeod

Sub'd. 

I don't have a clue about the "science stuff" aspect of car audio. I'll try to keep up.  

Yeah the P99 is a grand but considering it's a processor as well, it's actually a pretty good value. 

Sent from my beloved Samsung Galaxy Note 2.


----------



## cyrusthevirus23

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



MacLeod said:


> Sub'd.
> 
> I don't have a clue about the "science stuff" aspect of car audio. I'll try to keep up.
> 
> Yeah the P99 is a grand but considering it's a processor as well, it's actually a pretty good value.
> 
> Sent from my beloved Samsung Galaxy Note 2.


i had a deh p9300 n 9400mp. those two player's were both high end back in the day i wish my 9400 never got stolen :/. but maybe one day ill get a 99rs.


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## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In- this is great


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## Notloudenuf

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

sub'd
I really need to spend more time educating myself on the data side.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



MacLeod said:


> Sub'd.
> 
> I don't have a clue about the "science stuff" aspect of car audio. I'll try to keep up.


I'm being serious when I say this: if I don't explain something well enough, just ask me to clarify. 

I mean, I've only been doing this for about 3 years (the technical aspect of car audio) and I've gone from not understanding jack to not understanding most... so I've made progress. And truth be told, most of what I've found is rather simple when you get right down to it. It just took me a few years of making things much harder on myself than need be. 

I really and truly want this log to be about information sharing. Initially I had planned to keep this entire build under wraps. Only a few of my closest friends were going to know the entire details. After some consideration I realized that's the total opposite of what I want to do. So, this build log is intended to share my trials and tribulations. If I don't explain something well enough, then please ask for clarification and I'll do the best I can to make it clearer. And if you have something to add, by all means, do it.


----------



## BuickGN

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have nothing to contribute as always but I'm very thankful for these types of threads, I will be reading with each update and hopefully educating myself.

Now that I think about it, I'm looking forward to when you get to the point about why you're swapping out the AEs for the pair of 13s. I'm just waiting for the right time to swap in the 13W7s, IB. If I remember right you're probably not going IB this time so I'm assuming your speaker choice is due to installation requirements but I'll wait until you get there.


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## cyrusthevirus23

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Notloudenuf said:


> sub'd
> I really need to spend more time educating myself on the data side.


that stuff blows my mind away.


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## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Subscribed...let's just say the car and science very much interests me .

Literally just got back from a comp myself...with highest score ever for my Civic as well with a 78 which is the good news. The bad news is that Modified in CA is OMG crazy this year. A 78 was only good enough for 5th (out of 7), with top 3 cars all low 80s. And no, they are no kidding good since same judge for modified on up, and best sq score was a master class car with an 88.

It's looking to be a really good year for Modified on up in CA despite some of the discussions in the rules thread .


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## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*










Shouldn't that chair look the other way? 

I'm in. Some points you raise, I could have written. Especially the parts about objectivity/subjectivity. 

Congrats on the MECA comp as well.


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## bertholomey

In for the learning - reading your posts on the previous build thread has reignited my interest in ca (don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing).


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, would the H800 be a better choice of processor for your needs? It can do what the PS8 and the RFQ5000 combined can do if you are talking about running rear fill. I mean yeah you wouldn't have 31 bands of parametric each channel...but do you need 31 bands of parametric?


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## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> Erin, would the H800 be a better choice of processor for your needs? It can do what the PS8 and the RFQ5000 combined can do if you are talking about running rear fill. I mean yeah you wouldn't have 31 bands of parametric each channel...but do you need 31 bands of parametric?


The PS8 has FAR more input flexibility than the H800. Turn in and off timers, etc. The basic functions are the same but if you don't want or need 5.1 functions the PS8 takes the H800 in a walk.


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You did see where he was using rear fill and the RFQ5k to process the rear fill?


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## cyrusthevirus23

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



n_olympios said:


> Shouldn't that chair look the other way?
> 
> I'm in. Some points you raise, I could have written. Especially the parts about objectivity/subjectivity.
> 
> Congrats on the MECA comp as well.


this reminds we of that guy sitting in the chair with the music playing was that RCA? lol


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Erin, would the H800 be a better choice of processor for your needs? It can do what the PS8 and the RFQ5000 combined can do if you are talking about running rear fill. I mean yeah you wouldn't have 31 bands of parametric each channel...but do you need 31 bands of parametric?


Good question. There are a few reasons why I don't want to use the H800. The reasons why... some are pretty silly and some are legitimate. One example is if I ran it, I wouldn't have enough channels for active 3-way front + rear fill. I don't want to run passive between the front tweeter/mid, though I could. The rear fill in my car will be ran off the p99's rear output. So, really, I've got 16 channels DSP... plenty to give me room for other experiments. Then there's the fact that I just really like the P99; I'm on my 3rd and won't be getting rid of it. Then there's the fact that I really like having parametric EQ. Yea, I don't need 31 bands but there are other reasons I like the PS8. Truth be told, a minidsp on the midbass/sub channels would probably suffice. If I wanted to really trim the fat I could do that and some other things but this is the culmination of years of gear swapping... I've settled on the pieces I like the most finally. Also, rear fill isn't a top priority so switching gear around to accommodate a processor that has it just doesn't fit me. Finally, I've owned the H800 before and I was very underwhelmed with the experience. I know they've since fixed the issues I had but I just didn't really care for it as a whole. Really left a bitter taste in my mouth.


All in all, let's just say that it's a viable option. Just not one that I felt worth pursuing.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



n_olympios said:


> Shouldn't that chair look the other way?


That chair moves, dude.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Right on. I understand better now.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Right on. I understand better now.


I've got crazy reasons/excuses. lol.


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

We all do...lol.


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## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looking forward to this!


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## Fricasseekid

Subscribed


----------



## fish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This is a great viewing & educational experience. Glad you started a new thread too. 

Regarding the AE's playing higher & having an untamable resonance I think I know what you mean (have similar issues).


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## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I admit it took me a couple times of reading the decay chart to get what your were saying, but once I had that aha moment I saw how useful it was.

I am going to attempt to sum up and dumb this down a bit which will end in a question. 

In short, the goal (at least your goal), was to minimize the divergence of the mid and tweet, resulting in better sound power. Got that, check...

Barring specific driver differences, this means crossing over approximately or just below the beaming point. Check.

So, given that, it would seem that using any mid larger than say a 4" would require a tweeter with a really low Fs, right? Take a typical 6" mid range. That would start beaming in the 1200hz range if I got the math right. Yet most cross those over a good octave or more above that point. 

The general conclusion that could be drawn here is that a) beaming is bad and b) large mids to tweets are not really a good idea.

Having said that, there most certainly are vehicles where this is not the case. Todd's GTi is a good example. Jim Becker's truck would be another, and I'm sure there are many others. 

The question then is beaming always a bad (or undesireable) thing in a car? 

I may be answering my own question here, but perhaps the response would be, well it is undesirable and you can tune/install around it and still get a great outcome, however getting rid of it takes it to a whole nother level. (?)


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## Fricasseekid

Can the assumption be made that the Schroeder frequency is also the point at which cabin gain start to take effect?


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Beaming isn't necessarly bad...and in some cases unavoidable.

Large mids to tweeters...doesn't necessarly have to be a bad thing. You want the dispersion of the two drivers to be the same or similar at the crossover point. You can cross an 8 to a tweeter just fine provided you get the disperssion matched. Can do that with a waveguide like KEF does in the Q900s if you want a coax or someother waveguide if you want a seperate mid/tweeter.


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Room Acoustics

Section c2 



Fricasseekid said:


> Can the assumption be made that the Schroeder frequency is also the point at which cabin gain start to take effect?


----------



## nepl29

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I got a migraine! Im also a noob when it comes to reading data, you do make it easy to understand. Are you coming to SBN?


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## sydmonster

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

sub'd!! want to read this slowly... thanks for sharing Erin!


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## pionkej

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> I sure would wonder what the Kef passives would sound like, because they can't be that far off between the mid/tweeters.
> 
> might be really special if the hand-off to the woofer was simpatico with the ZR800's, then it's a single amp system where you can use the P99 to address rears and sub, might be freakishly good with that big eq built-in..


Maybe it's not in this thread...but Erin has shared this already. The Kef's passive were, wisely, built for the enclosure they came in. Erin's Civic ISN'T the Kef enclosure and therefore the passives don't translate too well. 

I see you often pop up in threads (usually threads of value) and speak things that are contrary. Is there a logical purpose for doing so or is simply fun for you to play "devil's advocate"?


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## pionkej

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



pocket5s said:


> The general conclusion that could be drawn here is that a) beaming is bad and b) large mids to tweets are not really a good idea.
> 
> Having said that, there most certainly are vehicles where this is not the case. Todd's GTi is a good example. Jim Becker's truck would be another, and I'm sure there are many others.
> 
> The question then is beaming always a bad (or undesireable) thing in a car?
> 
> I may be answering my own question here, but perhaps the response would be, well it is undesirable and you can tune/install around it and still get a great outcome, however getting rid of it takes it to a whole nother level. (?)


Robert,

There is a "common denominator" in the two vehicles you just mentioned. It involves finding a way to insure that even if the speaker is beaming, both speakers (and both seats for that matter) are roughly at the same axis and, therefore, the frequency response will be the same...even if it's falling/playing beyond the point of beaming.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think he was just saying it would be cool if the natural roll off of the 8s on the topend and the roll off of the 5s on the bottom matched up so that there wouldn't need a great deal of processing done to make things right. Combined with a passive between the mid/tweeter, you could have a very simple layout that would sound awesome.

I would think the passive between the mid and tweeter in this case wouldn't contain any baffle step compensation, just level for the tweeter and XO for the mid and tweeter since this particular speaker is strictly a midrange and wouldn't play low enough in the factory boxes to contain BSC.




pionkej said:


> Maybe it's not in this thread...but Erin has shared this already. The Kef's passive were, wisely, built for the enclosure they came in. Erin's Civic ISN'T the Kef enclosure and therefore the passives don't translate too well.
> 
> I see you often pop up in threads (usually threads of value) and speak things that are contrary. Is there a logical purpose for doing so or is simply fun for you to play "devil's advocate"?


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sub'd because knowing is half the battle.....


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If anyone is talking notes about waveguides, take note that axi-symmetric (round) waveguides have a hole in the response directly on axis. You want to toe them in so that they are crossing each other in front of you. Helps to get a wider sweet spot that way too.

His pictures look to have his aimed just about where/how I thought they would need to be aimed when i was looking for coaxes for my car (before wife's car died and had to buy a new one).


----------



## cyrusthevirus23

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

noted


----------



## audio+civic

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

silly question. have you heard the jl audio 13tw5v2?? I have only heard the version 1s but i have heard 3 different jl stealth boxes with it and did not like it all. have you had different results?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

nope. not yet.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Side update... after talking to a couple friends about REW, which is the software I've been using most lately, I have decided to put together a very non-professional crash course on how I use it and the connections I made. I'll try to post it up tonight or tomorrow, depending on what time my little one decides to crash and if I'm in the same boat at that time.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice! I use it but I know that I'm absolutely leaving functions on the table.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> oops, thought I was responding to bikinpunk.
> 
> carry on..



no worries. 

Yea, I only got the drive units from the R300. If I had access to the crossover section of the entire setup it might be plausible but as mentioned there are some things that would potentially make it more trouble than its worth. All that said, if I wanted to go passive I certainly could. I have all the means to do it. I just prefer active setups. Mainly because it allows me the flexibility to keep futzing with the tune.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

As mentioned above, I use REW for my testing. It's free and pretty easy to use _once you figure out how to use it_. :blush:
I've used every bit of software under the sun. At this point, I've just grown to like REW more than I used to so I've gone back to it for my tuning measurements. For those wanting to see how I'm using REW, here's some info.

*RTA vs Impulse Response Measurement Method:*
One thing to note is there are different meanings of the term, at least how we use it:

RTA - Real Time Analyzer: 
This is simply a real time measurement of what the mic hears. Birds chirping, subs playing... whatever. It records it. 
RTAs are typically used to record pink noise.

Impulse Response:*** 
This can be a form of RTA, depending on how you look at it. An impulse is used typically to measure something before a reflection because you can gate the response. In other words, let's say I want to measure Speaker A. I know that the walls and floors create reflections occurring after 3 milliseconds (ms) that will 'tarnish' the speaker's response as measured by the mic if I let it. To keep this from happening, I look at the impulse response, tell the software to ignore everything after 3ms. Bammo... no more reflections in the measurement. Just Speaker A. 
The impulse response is measured by sweeping a sine wave and capturing the response.


*** I have severely watered down my explanations here and there are caveats; especially when you get in to different window type methods. But for the sake of this post, it's fine. 

The bottom line: In a car, you don't care about impulse gating. You can't really achieve a reflection free zone so there's not much point in trying. -- If you care to disagree please see discussion and reply here (link) so I don't get this one junked up). -- Therefore, we just disregard the whole gating process. That leaves us with a very long impulse response that matches what an RTA would show you, if the signal were the same (ie: pink noise). *IOW, using a very long impulse window (100's of milliseconds) in the car will yield an RTA measurement.*

Why use this impulse method if it essentially nets you the same thing as an RTA measurement? Because RTA measurement only gives you RTA data; SPL vs frequency. You can't get Decay or some of the other things I am looking to get. More data. That's all. I get in to it more below. 



*Cliffs**:*

When measuring a car, there are a couple ways to do it. 
RTA and Impulse are not the same. They each have their own use. However, when the impulse is used without filtering or gating it, it nets you the same result as an RTA.
The benefit of using impulse measurements are you get more data such as decay, group delay, etc.
Like a standard RTA measurement, multiple impulse responses should be taken and averaged together if you want to tune to a car.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll discuss how to use either of the two methods listed above. But first off, let's discuss the equipment you need and why you need it.



If doing *RTA only* measurements all you really need is:
A CD with pink noise 
A mic to capture the sound.

If doing *impulse measurements* you need two things:
A way to use the software's signal generator and send that signal to your audio system. This can be done by using a soundcard output and run it in to your audio system auxiliary input. 
A mic is used to capture the sound.


If you are looking to achieve a target curve of any sort you MUST USE A CALIBRATION FILE with the mic.



-------------------------------------


For impulse measurements, this is the gear I'm using. It's pretty simple:

M-Audio Transit. This sends the signal from REW software via a 3.5mm male/female cable to my P99's auxiliary input.
Dayton Omnimic USB microphone. It comes with a cal file.


You don't have to use what I have. In fact, you can save a good deal of money by simply using:

Your laptop's built-in headphone output
This Dayton mic (click link here). There are numerous other mic alternatives. This is just an easy one with one USB cable. Plug and chug. And it comes with cal files.


------------------------------------------


You know what you have to have. Why do you have to have it?

The soundcard output is used to send the signal to your auxiliary source. Every headunit should now have one of these. This is how I do my testing most of the time. If it doesn't, you may be limited to using the pure RTA method only.
The mic records the system output. Simple as that.



-----------------------------------------


Here's some pictures of my gear:


M-Audio Transit, using the output via a 3.5mm headphone extension cable.






















Dayton Omnimic USB mic (it has electrical tape because I broke the tip; these things are pretty fragile and I made a goof):














Mic in the headrest:























3.5mm aux cable plugged in to my headunit's aux input on the face panel:


----------



## bertholomey

Thanks Erin for taking the time to do this.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I use my mic the same way! lol 

I'm assuming it should be the same, but a 3.5mm to RCA into my PS8 should work for the impulse measurement as well, right? Volume control would be through the PS8 directly though. I COULD use my OEM HU 3.5mm input but the OEM HU blows a whole herd of goats.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> not doubting your ability to engineer a successful 3-way passive,
> 
> but, if you had the woofers and the 3-way crossovers from whatever system Kef put together that incorporated the R300, if it has 8" woofers, it could possibly be an all-in-one purchase for someone who likes the idea.
> 
> And, if you tire of the car install you can put it all back in the enclosure, for next year...


Ya know what, my Quarts sound MILES better passive than active. I don't know if there is some impedance matching or phase manipulation in there or what, but it's just better passive.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So, why the transit vs sound card output?

Did I miss the explanation as to how and why you use the decay plots?


----------



## ErinH

My computers built in audio doesn't work. 

Decay plots were covered in my previous posts about modal issues detection. If you want to do that kind of analysis, you have to use the impulse method (or buy the $300 omnimic setup).


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> I use my mic the same way! lol
> 
> I'm assuming it should be the same, but a 3.5mm to RCA into my PS8 should work for the impulse measurement as well, right? Volume control would be through the PS8 directly though. I COULD use my OEM HU 3.5mm input but the OEM HU blows a whole herd of goats.


Personally, I'd recommend using anything that will be part of the real signal path. That would be your OEM headunit. If it does anything to the response you want to see it. Most decks don't but some do... especially if it goes to an amp with DSP (ie: factory Bose systems). Otherwise, it doesn't really matter.


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Unless you eq your OEM HU flat at the processor's input, then there's no point in NOT using it in this test. Most recent processors have this ability as they are designed around the whole "OEM integration" theme going on lately, but even older processors do (I know my UCSPro does).


----------



## ErinH

Woke up early before the little one did to make this video so forgive me if I sound half dead and my video has the shakes. 

This covers only the RTA aspect of using REW. I'll post another video soon showing how to use the impulse measurement method since I feel it's a bit more complete depending on what you want to do and given I'll be posting results from that kind of measurement. 

Let me know if you have questions. 










- Erin


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice video Erin. I only dabbled a tiny bit with REW, then swapped to TrueRTA. however I'm looking forward to the impulse response stuff next. Having read some old diyma posts I'm more interested now in some of these technical aspects. Especially since I don't yet have the experienced ear that others do


----------



## hatemi

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Where the heck is the Like button! 

Thank you Erin for making posts and threads like these. Very helpful and understandable, even to a novice like me. 

Next I'm going to order that Dayton mic and get a proper RTA system. Cell phone RTA is pretty useless.

Edit: Will need to source another place for that mic. PE wants over 90$ of shipping that mic to Europe...


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

do you also use the impulse to objectively determine time alignment?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

yes but not really.

I mean, you can... I've done it. But I honestly find it's easier to do it using a tape measure and then by ear. I also have been working on a different method for a couple months now... not really talked about it because I honestly forgot. It's worked well for me. I posted it a few months back on my site and in a thread here. It's essentially the same method we all use but with an added twist, depending on crossover settings. 
Here's a link:
http://medleysmusings.com/subwoofers-and-time-alignment-in-the-car/


But, to answer your question: no, I don't really bother with using impulse to get T/A. It's mostly by ear. If you're interested, I can certainly make it a point to do a little video tutorial on that.


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I would love to see a video on how you do time alignment, Erin. 

I thought you wrote about setting time (example, midbass to sub) via inverting the midbass and playing a test tone at the crossover point, looking for the lowest volume (or most cancellation) at the crossover point?


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Niebur3 said:


> I would love to see a video on how you do time alignment, Erin.
> 
> I thought you wrote about setting time (example, midbass to sub) via inverting the midbass and playing a test tone at the crossover point, looking for the lowest volume (or most cancellation) at the crossover point?


If I recall that was more about phase alignment between th etwo speakers using TA than actually setting TA for, well, TA.


----------



## ErinH

Edited my post to add a link. It's just one method of numerous to do time alignment. Ill discuss this a bit more later.


----------



## lashlee

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Impressive Erin, I'll keep my eye on this one!


----------



## ErinH

Hey man! How have you been? Very long time... No see.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

excellent explanations, really accessible


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

AE IB15's are now out of the car. I'm considering ways of implementing the JL 13tw5's now. Got a few ideas. The good news is that the space savings is going to be about 4" in depth if I go the route I'm most likely going to go. I'll let it sit tonight and think about it a bit. I hope by this weekend to have the JL's in the car and playing music.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

those jl's look SWEEET!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

sub enclosure progress....


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

for what it's worth, what I've decided to do is a bit off the mark of my initial intentions. but for a couple reasons which are somewhat scatterbrained.

One thing I learned from experimentation is the trunk causes problems. It did IB and it does with a sealed enclosure. With any enclosure in the trunk, what you get in to is a cancellation from the sound hitting the rear of the trunk and bouncing back forward in to the cabin. That's just the nature of the beast. In addition, the trunk is one more area that can be excited. As I found through some playing around with over the past few months, this is a problem for me. So, I wanted to eliminate the trunk. I had planned to make a modular setup. One that attached to the existing IB wall and removed. But, I found doing this really was more trouble than it was worth. Instead, I picked up some void free birch in 1/2" size and attached it to the existing wall. Weight added is less than 5lbs which is minimal considering the space savings. Using the existing IB wall as a basis for the enclosure allowed me to only consume about 4" of the trunk as is. A savings of nearly 4 inches itself. 

What I'll be doing to finish out the enclosure is placing a piece of wood behind the baffle wall. Picture in your head taking a standard IB setup and just putting a piece of wood behind the woofers. Now you have a sealed setup. Doing this, with the trunk dimensions I have, provides me over 1 cube per driver at 4" depth consumption. This means I have wiggle room. If I want to decrease the enclosure size per driver, I simply move the rear wall forward. If I move it up an inch I can lower the Qtc and save space. I plan to do some testing once the baffle wall glue dries and I get some pieces of wood cut to play with enclosure size.


----------



## HondAudio

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> ...a means to calm my OCD/ADHD tendencies...


I didn't figure this out until I was diagnosed with ADHD at 31


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

rear wall cut with partition glued down and drying.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

rear wall test fit went well. I had to break out the baby sledge to get the wall in place. It ain't going anywhere without significant effort... and that's without screws. 


I'm going to finish it all with carpet. Right now I'm just trying to make sure everything goes where it needs to. I'll be doing some sweeps with the dayton DATS soon.


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Press fit FTW!


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

nice cant wait i always wanted to hear how these sound compared the w7 series!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

13tw5v2's are in. I did an impedance sweep on woofer in its own chamber and the difference in Qts is only 0.01 (0.629 vs 0.619).  

Initial impressions: I made the right decision to switch. I'll give it a bit more time to sit and discuss my impressions after the new factor has worn off. But for now I'll say that my reasons for going with the wall/enclosure design paid off. 

I need to lay some carpet over the baffle but had to put the car together to drive to work tomorrow so that'll come this week.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So, how did you seal everything up- or are leaky boxes OK?


----------



## ErinH

What do you mean? It's sealed off. Wood scraps and foam to round it out.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> What do you mean? It's sealed off. Wood scraps and foam to round it out.


What I mean is sealed enclosures must be sealed- completely. You have a front baffle and rear baffle; no sides, top or bottom. What did you use to seal things up- I guess your answer is expanding foam, which is what I expected. I just know how much you hate that **** and how difficult it is to move things around like you indicated you were happy to have the option....



bikinpunk said:


> This means I have wiggle room. If I want to decrease the enclosure size per driver,* I simply move the rear wall forward.* If I move it up an inch I can lower the Qtc and save space. I plan to do some testing once the baffle wall glue dries and I get some pieces of wood cut to play with enclosure size.


Nothing simple about moving a wall that has been sealed in spot with expanding foam....


----------



## ErinH

I meant before I chose the final config. I tested some things last night before settling on where it is now. I trimmed wood as needed and after deciding on what to use, I sealed the rest with the spray foam. So, here is a top made of wood with foam to round it out. The sides and bottom are the metal of the trunk. I plan to go back this weekend and add some glass in once I sand the existing foam down to shape. 

I should have been more clear.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey Erin,
Just out of curiosity, people generally laud the low end extension and snappy response of IB, do you feel switching to sealed will loose either of these? and what will you gain in return (as this is a game of compromises).


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I don't think it would necessarly change sealed over IB...if you have the right subs for IB use.

He is going to gain some trunk space back maybe at the expense of some weight (I dunno for sure). Plus he had some resonances in the trunk with the IB setup that he won't have to deal with now.


----------



## Neil_J

Subb'd, thanks Erin for taking the time to write this up. 

One question, you were talking at one point about implementing a servo subwoofer controller to eliminate nonlinearities, has that gone away now that you're switching subs? I would think the nonlinearity would be worse with the TW5's? (just guessing, I've not seen a klippel for them yet)

Great work as always.


----------



## ErinH

JL rates their Xmax linearly (klippel verified) at 11mm. The IB12 was tested at 10.8mm due to suspension and I'd bet the IB15 is near the same just different cones size. I can't say for sure but its a reasonable guess. The 13tw5v2 has excellent symmetry (I've seem the test results). So in this regard the linear throw isn't a huge difference. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...87524092-acoustic-elegance-ib12-8-abib128.pdf


The servo stuff is tied to a home sub I've been testing. I still have to write the review for it soon. Not sure that rd ever make it to car audio though I've mentioned it to the designer.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> 13tw5v2's are in. I did an impedance sweep on woofer in its own chamber and the difference in Qts is only 0.01 (0.629 vs 0.619).
> 
> Initial impressions: I made the right decision to switch. I'll give it a bit more time to sit and discuss my impressions after the new factor has worn off. But for now I'll say that my reasons for going with the wall/enclosure design paid off.
> 
> I need to lay some carpet over the baffle but had to put the car together to drive to work tomorrow so that'll come this week.


Glad it worked out. I've been conceptualizing something similar to this for a while now. The sub box would be mounted to the rear seat's metal back (anchored at key mounting points to the seat's mounting brackets). Somewhat of a home audio down firing sub just up on the seat back and firing out the edges and possibly the arm rest.

Then with some IB type sealing off of the trunk around the box edge (ie wood panel and gasket perimeter). You end up with a seal box that can fold down when need be, yet keeps the cabin separated from the trunk so there aren't any cancellations. 

Also using a standard sub instead of a shallow mount due to its lower cost for the xmax range. The depth could still be very low, just cut out a hole for the motor to stick out the rear of the box and you end up with a shallow box with only two small bumps out the back. I had Peerless XXLS subs in mind for this since they vent the pole out the front of the coil. It would then not matter if the motor were outside of the enclosure. Scanspeak discovery subs also work but the specific basket design on the XXLS give this app a lower enclosure depth.

Anyways kinda just thinking out loud here and spreading some ideas. Again, nice job.


----------



## lashlee

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Hey man! How have you been? Very long time... No see.


Busy with life and work. I hope to get back in the lanes at some point soon!


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I hesitated to post this, but since I mentioned I will update this thread with things that work and didn't work, I feel it's worth noting...
> 
> With this setup, I had about 2 hours of tuning done to it before competing in my first MECA event for 2013. I didn't really have a lot of expectations but still wanted to do well. You know... hoping high, expecting realistically low.
> 
> I wound up getting an average of 82.x points. This is the highest score I've ever had in MECA. Out of about 20 people (I think), I had either the 3rd or 4th highest score that day. For 2 hours' tune, I was very happy.
> 
> It netted me first in my class, though no one else was there in my class competing so it's not easy to gauge my performance in that regard. Still, to come out better than I ended last year with a new install and hardly any tuning tells me that my choice to change gear and the reasons for making the equipment choices I did paid off. I wasn't running rear fill at the time so my next show will be my first show to compete using rear fill, which I'll discuss soon.


So your Kef drivers are 5", right? If so, then looks like you are no longer eligible for MODEX and need to move up to Extreme... 

In the "not permitted" of both Modified and MODEX two bullets were added the last few days (someone else brought to my attention):


A-pillar mods protruding more than 3.5 inches from the factory surface
A-pillar mods with drivers larger than 4 inches


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

yea. I saw your post. let's take it to the appropriate thread...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I haven't updated this in a while because I've been stupid busy at work. I've had 4 briefs to prepare and mounds of data to analyze which has provided me 16 hour days for the past week and half. And this week is going to be about the same (unless I get laid off... thank you, sequester). 

While the family has been napping or asleep I've been slaving away in the garage testing and playing with stuff. No real updates but figured it'd be cool to show a picture of what my craziness looks like. 

Shout out to Pandora for keeping me motivated (and reminding me of songs I forgot I love).


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

your work bench looks like mine except you get your car audio stuff done....


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I know some of you guys like this stuff so here you go... the PS8 internals.

Large pictures for your zooming pleasure.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I know some of you guys like this stuff so here you go... the PS8 internals.
> 
> Large pictures for your zooming pleasure.


Don't forget to put your name in the middle of your pics in case someone wants to use your pics to sell their PS8 on eGay 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, after some serious deliberation on my part... going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth with some friends... I pulled the trigger on the Alpine IVE-W535HD. It's kind of an interesting story. I used to own the S920HD, which is essentially the same deck but with GPS. I didn't need GPS. I wound up getting the P99 because I needed a quick all in one solution before MECA Finals last year. 

I finally got my PS8 up and running in the car with the P99 in front of it. But, now that I've got the PS8, I realized that I have the opportunity to go back to a nice DD unit that would look a bit nicer in the dash than a single din. I went to BB to check out the w535 and to my surprise found it on sale at $525+tax. That's better than (some) ebay pricing... with a warranty to boot. So, I bought it. I plan to use it in the car for the next week or so to see how I like it once the new wears off. 

Pros:

It's a double din
Has some basic DSP that I can adjust on the fly if needed
Quick access to sub and rear levels for adjusting rear fill and sub on the fly
Nice interface depending on the mode used. Picture below shows the main menu features disabled which then leaves only the track info. I like this look a lot... especially in black as shown
I was worried about sound quality psychoacoustics so I did some testing. The Alpine is no slouch. It holds it own objectively and subjectively. 
Solid 4.2vRMS output.
Album art, y0!
Built in BT for calling and streaming

Cons:

No real DSP for extensive tuning. But, then again, I rarely do on the fly tuning. Still, I will miss not being able to tune with just a remote.
iPod control from the deck is worse, IMHO, than with the p99. The P99 trumps ANY iPod interface I've used to date. I shuffle mostly, though, so it's not a huge inconvenience.
It isn't a well known, high end deck. Some people may balk at "Alpine" on the front. They'd be a fool to, but still...
Doesn't come with a freaking remote. (I'm a remote junkie)


























I also did some very minor work on the kicks last night and tonight. I had some serious gaps thanks to the grilles I used to protect the speakers. So, I used some great stuff foam to fill in the transition from floor to kick cover and then sanded it down a bit. Nothing special... and carpet will go over it. But at least now I won't have a large hump from the floor to the speaker.


----------



## quality_sound

And thanks to Erin's heads up I also picked up a 535 today to feed my PS8. I thought about the P99 so I hit him up and I think we kind of talked each other into it. lol

I got mine in and LOVE it but still have the top menu showing (didn't see the removal button) and have my screen red to match my dash but like Erim said, it's a SOLID HU. Just need to get the BT mic installed when I get back from Nebraska and possibly the XM module if I can get one of those crazy $4/mo deals. 

Thanks again for the heads up on the sale, Erin!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No problem, dude!
I didn't want to call you out, lol. But, yep... talking to you and then finding it on sale pushed me over. 

To get the screen I showed in the pictures, just push the album button. Be patient, because it takes a second (or five). 

My only real complaint so far is that it lags on the iPod source when skipping tracks, but that's shuffling over 5k songs. When it's on CD it does just fine. If that's the only con I have to live with, I can manage.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

nope, the kicks still come out easy. 4 screws and the grilles are off. I might have to pry them a bit to break the foam around them, though.


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> No problem, dude!
> I didn't want to call you out, lol. But, yep... talking to you and then finding it on sale pushed me over.
> 
> To get the screen I showed in the pictures, just push the album button. Be patient, because it takes a second (or five).
> 
> My only real complaint so far is that it lags on the iPod source when skipping tracks, but that's shuffling over 5k songs. When it's on CD it does just fine. If that's the only con I have to live with, I can manage.


Yeah I only keep about 400 on mine so it's snappy. lol

I really like it a lot and the TA is MUCH better than it was on the D800. So is the PEQ. Even the XO is great, for a 2-way anyway. 

Did you see that you can turn the rear speakers completely off instead if fading forward?

This thing is pretty bad ass.


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> It isn't a well known, high end deck. Some people may balk at "Alpine" on the front. They'd be a fool to, but still...


Why would anyone balk at Alpine? 

I like the W535. It may have a smaller screen (big deal, if you're not into movies anyway) but it has a cd loading slot and a volume pot. Not many multimedia HU's do.


----------



## highly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> , what would you consider the weakest point of your system, then?


This seems to me like the kind of question that a competitor might be wise to avoid answering. After all, many of the judges frequent the forum and planting a seed of doubt by indicating a known weakness - however well intended - could predispose a listener to <listen> for something they may not notice otherwise. Even if said weakness is later fixed that acknowledgement could lead to a less than stellar outcome.

Not saying you were wrong for asking. I might not find myself going out of my way to answer if I were Erin though 

-T


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Been rocking the 535 for the last six months- works quite well. Keys for me were CD slot so the face doesn't have to tilt to access the disc and an actual volume knob. Auto mute by pushing knob is nice as well! Worked great with steering wheel controls and Parrot BT works well for all by my mom. You can also put it in app mode and control the iPod from its click wheel, but the HU looses display while you do.....


----------



## hatemi

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That PU foam would not work that well in colder/rainier climates and in the footwell. That will eventually suck some moisture in it and it will never ever dry.


----------



## preston

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Does the alpine have digital out or are you satisfied with converting to analog at the HU and then reconverting in the PS8 ?


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


>



LOL, Got Processing?

I spy at least 4 DSP's on the mad scientist's work bench (which needs a bit of organization I'd say). 

I kid. I know how it is when things get busy.  Speaking of gettin' busy, what's that little blue mouse trying to do all snuggly-like on top of your iPhone? 

Nice to see the difference in OPAMP performance. IYO, does that plot equate to a substantial improvement?

Congrats on your 1st Place as well.  I'll be interested to see how you implement the "rear fill".

Good chit, man!

P.S. And Todd, don't be a party pooper, dude! This is a "full disclosure" thread afterall! ...Seriously tho'...very good points and understand the implications, so I wouldn't knock Erin one bit if he decides to take the 5th..


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



hatemi said:


> That PU foam would not work that well in colder/rainier climates and in the footwell. That will eventually suck some moisture in it and it will never ever dry.


It would be pretty easy to just spray paint or coat the exposed surface of the foam to minimize this, no?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> LOL, Got Processing?
> 
> I spy at least 4 DSP's on the mad scientist's work bench (which needs a bit of organization I'd say).


Yea... about that... lol. Sometimes the only way to know is to try. Unfortunately, the Zapco just won't fit where I want/need it to so I'll have to sell it. :/



bbfoto said:


> I kid. I know how it is when things get busy.  Speaking of gettin' busy, what's that little blue mouse trying to do all snuggly-like on top of your iPhone?


Blue mouse... the iphone is my mousepad! 



bbfoto said:


> Nice to see the difference in OPAMP performance. IYO, does that plot equate to a substantial improvement?


Not IMHO. It's just cool to see it measured. Look at the scale.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> Now that you're bumped up, are you thinking about adding something to the present-day system?
> 
> something, extreme?
> 
> although, I expect your car to do well, I can't help but get the feeling that the new class is making it a bit harder to find the first place trophy.
> 
> what is the first thing you would change to more accurately reflect the new standing in the rules, what would you consider the weakest point of your system, then?


I _honestly _have no idea at this point. I have all the components to make it great... and I certainly don't feel intimidated by full on dash rebuilds. There are plenty of cars with much more simple systems that sound fan-freaking-tastic. 

Once I get the car back together and some real tuning going I'll have a better idea of the weaknesses.



slade1274 said:


> Been rocking the 535 for the last six months- works quite well. Keys for me were CD slot so the face doesn't have to tilt to access the disc and an actual volume knob. Auto mute by pushing knob is nice as well! Worked great with steering wheel controls and Parrot BT works well for all by my mom. You can also put it in app mode and control the iPod from its click wheel, but the HU looses display while you do.....


Cool, dude! Didn't know you owned this. I was going to get it when it was released last October just before Finals but the time window was just way too narrow.


----------



## quality_sound

preston said:


> Does the alpine have digital out or are you satisfied with converting to analog at the HU and then reconverting in the PS8 ?


Digital is HIGHLY overrated. The PS8 is PHENOMENAL analog.


----------



## 3fish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for the thread Erin.

Could this be the fastest thread to sticky on DIYMA?


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Not IMHO. It's just cool to see it measured. Look at the scale.


Thanks. Yeah, I didn't think so...I noticed the scale and the Very minimal differences, but I'm clueless about these things, so...

And I'll just be frank...If the Z8 fit in your install, would you prefer it over the PS8 for any particular reason/function?

Thanks again for sharing all the wisdom.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Cool, dude! Didn't know you owned this. I was going to get it when it was released last October just before Finals but the time window was just way too narrow.


Yep.... that's the one I went for when we talked about them last fall.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> Thanks. Yeah, I didn't think so...I noticed the scale and the Very minimal differences, but I'm clueless about these things, so...
> 
> And I'll just be frank...If the Z8 fit in your install, would you prefer it over the PS8 for any particular reason/function?
> 
> Thanks again for sharing all the wisdom.


If the z8 fit the car and I kept the p99, that would be the route I'd go for bang for buck. The ps8 is really a different beast altogether but in the case of the p99 it is overkill. Though, it's definitely some nice overkill.  I'd have all the tuning I'd need. On the flipside, the z8 is a very great base to have as well. Pairing that with something like the 80prs would be a very nice setup as well. I really think the phase adjustment is uber cool. That's what really attracted me to it.


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This week the Z8, next week the P99, the week after the F#1, the week after that the P99.....at least you can still satisfy your ocd in some way Erin!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

no joke. this time I'm not selling the p99 until I know for sure I want to use what I am replacing it with.


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good idea!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm going to give it a week. then go from there. the alpine definitely looks better in the dash in most regards. but the p99 just has such a great remote ipod interface that's incredibly hard to beat.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I'm going to give it a week. then go from there. the alpine definitely looks better in the dash in most regards. but the p99 just has such a great remote ipod interface that's incredibly hard to beat.



Why is it that the HU's with the nicest gui's and interfaces are so anti-audiophile.


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quietfly said:


> Why is it that the HU's with the nicest gui's and interfaces are so anti-audiophile.


I don't get it....he is saying the P99 has the better interface and it is all about sq. BUT, the Alpine looks better because it is a double din and fits the look of the car.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quietfly said:


> Why is it that the HU's with the nicest gui's and interfaces are so anti-audiophile.


the alpine actually has higher preout voltage and it's THD is below that of the best processors I've measured to date. I've got the data... just didn't post it. IOW, I wouldn't call the alpine anti-audiophile.


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> I'm going to give it a week. then go from there. the alpine definitely looks better in the dash in most regards. but the p99 just has such a great remote ipod interface that's incredibly hard to beat.


Stopppppppp. You just set it to random anyway. All you need after that is FF and REW. you have better Voltage now as well. Is the iPod control that you admittedly don't use REALLY that big a deal? 

If you wanna send the P99 my way I'll test it out and let you know if you're just being silly. 

On another note, can you get video from your iPod? I have some loaded on my 4S and my old 3G and when I search video doesn't show up for either. If I start a video from the iPhone I can get that to show up but there's no audio. I know the TR-7 is working because I can access all of the tuning options. It's weird.


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> the alpine actually has higher preout voltage and it's THD is below that of the best processors I've measured to date. I've got the data... just didn't post it. IOW, I wouldn't call the alpine anti-audiophile.


It sounds better than my D800 did. Yep, I just said that. BOOM!


----------



## beef316

bikinpunk said:


> the alpine actually has higher preout voltage and it's THD is below that of the best processors I've measured to date. I've got the data... just didn't post it. IOW, I wouldn't call the alpine anti-audiophile.


Post data please.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## quality_sound

Because his word isn't good enough?


----------



## beef316

quality_sound said:


> Because his word isn't good enough?


Not that at all. Just curious to see the numbers.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



beef316 said:


> Post data please.


here you go:


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

QS- did you buy the alpine cable to get video? I believe it is required


----------



## ErinH

Yea. AFAIK it's required for video. I didn't want to spend money on that.


----------



## beef316

bikinpunk said:


> here you go:


Thanks.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## quality_sound

slade1274 said:


> QS- did you buy the alpine cable to get video? I believe it is required


Yep. Went to my local "specialty" shop and got ass-raped for that and the TR-7 because I needed them that day.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Yep. Went to my local "specialty" shop and got ass-raped for that and the TR-7 because I needed them that day.


Did they at least give you a free bottle of lube from their counter-top display? 

The shop has got Paul in the @ss, and Apple has Erin by the balls! 

Good info on your new DD's guys. Thanks.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> the alpine actually has higher preout voltage and it's THD is below that of the best processors I've measured to date. I've got the data... just didn't post it. IOW, I wouldn't call the alpine anti-audiophile.



Wow, I didn't know that, well i stand corrected. Thanks for sharing the data on it too. this is why this community rocks!!!


----------



## quality_sound

bbfoto said:


> Did they at least give you a free bottle of lube from their counter-top display?
> 
> The shop has got Paul in the @ss, and Apple has Erin by the balls!
> 
> Good info on your new DD's guys. Thanks.


Right??? $35 for the cable and $40 for the TR-7!!!

THIS is why B&Ms are failing.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I realized I never posted pictures of the pillar build from the driver's seat. This was taken at my seat with my wide angle lens, laid back a bit to show what I see while driving/competing.


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Full windshield in view...

Is it just the picture or does it slightly angle down?


----------



## ErinH

Picture. Drivers side actually aimed up a tad.


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> if visual obstruction or occlusion is the primary caution in limiting the diameter of A-pillar mounted speakers, I think this shows the thinking is wrong in some instances.


To be fair, the Civic has mahoosive A-pillars.  

This is great stuff as always, Erin. 



quality_sound said:


> It sounds better than my D800 did. Yep, I just said that. BOOM!


Now stop that.


----------



## quality_sound

It's true. Even analog into my PS8 it's noticeably better. On transients in particular.


----------



## Lorin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have a few questions on pillar placement. Like you, my pillars are pretty big (RX 300), although I am using smaller, 3 inch drivers. So many people put their drivers as far forward as possible (near corner of windshield, dash, and pillar) under the assumption of keeping the image as wide and deep as possible (not quoting as fact, just repeating). Your speakers ended up being relatively foward, and away from the windshield. Closer to a sail panel (location wise) than a "typical" a-pillar install. Was this by design, or more due to the nature \ size of your particular driver? On one hand, you are further from the windshield; is that to minimize reflections? 
Can you elaborate further?


----------



## Bluenote

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Bikinpunk, I really like the execution and thoughtful planning of this new build. I wanted to ask, if you ever attempted to test the R100? Its received nothing but good reviews. Secondly, would a driver like that be problematic in your scenario playing lower frequencies crossed below the R300's 400-500hz threshold. When I say problematic I am referring to resonance in an a-pillar install. Thanks for taking the risk to try something different!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Bluenote said:


> Bikinpunk, I really like the execution and thoughtful planning of this new build. I wanted to ask, if you ever attempted to test the R100? Its received nothing but good reviews. Secondly, would a driver like that be problematic in your scenario playing lower frequencies crossed below the R300's 400-500hz threshold. When I say problematic I am referring to resonance in an a-pillar install. Thanks for taking the risk to try something different!


sure haven't, man. I'd like to but doubt it'll ever happen. 

I'm sure there's potential for issues with the driver imparting motion and resonance on the pillar itself but in my case, it doesn't seem to be an issue. I treated the pillar with some duct seal and CLD a couple weeks ago to help ease concern with this issue, though I didn't have a specific problem I set out to fix. This driver isn't playing low and the excursion is minimal, if at all.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So, I've had this w535hd for a couple weeks now and the honeymoon period is now over. There are things I like about it and there are things I don't like about it. 

*Pros:*

Nice DD unit that fills the dash space well.
Adjustable display and colors (shown below) allow a nice aesthetic match to the car.
Really good Bluetooth quality. Not a reason I bought it, but it's nice to have.
iPod navigation via the alphabet search is pretty quick. The p99 still has the best single din interface I've ever used, but this alpine ipod search is pretty nice. I just wish you could use a remote with it like you can with the p99.
A solid 4.2vRMS output. And the ability to bump the output up even higher if desired (at the risk of clipping it).
Quick boot time. A couple seconds and it's up and playing music. Nothing like the previous DD units I've owned that took 5+ seconds. 
Volume knob is cool. 
Volume knob can be pressed to mute the music.

*Cons:*

Takes some time to switch between sources; mainly when cycling through anything pertaining to Bluetooth such as the iphone as a source via Bluetooth or Pandora via Bluetooth. Gets on my nerves.
Doesn't come with a remote. You have to buy one separately. 

*Double-edged swords:*

iPod album art significantly reduces track skipping time _if you have a whole lot of music_. With my iPod's 5500+ songs, it takes a while between tracks because it has to load up the album art. With my iPhone and only about 1k songs on it, it's not an issue. That said, I just simply went to the iPod's root directory and deleted the album art folder. It allows me to skip tracks as quickly as I could want, but I no longer have album art. 
No track skip buttons on the deck's face. It's on the screen. Sometimes I wish there was a button, but I know it would make the deck look worse overall so I deal with it.


Regarding the switch overall for the w535hd + arc ps8 over the p99 before it, I've had some thoughts about going back to the p99 for its simplicity. However, I've easily got the best low frequency response with the arc ps8's parametric ability. The overall detail of my system as it stands is better than it's been but I'm having little funnies driving me nuts. In some ways, having this much EQ ability is causing me more trouble. I've had to keep the mindset that I was forced to use with the p99: use what is needed, not what you want to use. At this point, I'm sitting tight with what I've got and will work to massage it over the year. Personally, I think the system sounds better than it has before but I know it can be improved upon. I also miss having the ability to tune on the fly for this reason. 

Going back to the double edged sword notion, the incredible flexibility of the PS8 has caused me some gaffes. For example, I often will tune for Left/Right levels and time alignment by moving a driver outside of it's typical passband to focus on only ITD or ILD aspects. In this case, I'll cross a tweeter from 400-1khz and focus on time alignment. Then back up to it's normal operating range for intensity (level) matching. I do the opposite for mids. This helps me get a better ear tune. Last weekend I had good feedback at the ATL GTG, though I knew something was wrong with the phasing of some tracks. It was driving me nuts. A few days after, I spent a couple hours on it and then realized that I had my tweeter crossover slopes at 24dB (left) and 48dB (right) from the method mentioned. I forgot to put them back at 12dB. No wonder it sounded off... 
Lesson: always double check basic settings after tuning.


Enough words... pictures....


IVE-W535HD installed. Blue vs black background. I stick with black.
Note: You can choose from blue, red, orange, green, and black. 







































The remote I had to purchase separately:












The aux cable I ran to the glovebox for measurements/RTA:











11.6" Asus netbook I use for tuning with the PS8 software on the screen and a couple PS8 screenshots...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

random info...

often it's said that ILD & ITD dictate that phase doesn't matter for high frequencies. It's a notion people have inferred from light reading... and it's not entirely correct. The truth is, time alignment absolutely affects high frequency response. Now, the result isn't as dramatic as it is with midrange frequencies where you can hear the center move left and right with little adjustment between left/right t/a values. However, the time alignment allows a cohesiveness that you can't get simply by adjusting polarity of tweeters. I've often noticed in my car that cycling through T/A 3 times (roughly equivalent to 0.06ms, in 0.02ms steps) results in a full 'phase cycle'. Listen for the "s" sound ... aka: sibilance. Cycle through your T/A and listen for that sound to move out of phase and then *pop* back in phase. You may find the center moves a bit to the right or left, depending on what channel you're adjusting. But this is pretty minor unless you have your tweeters crossed really low. What you'll likely find is that you get in a cycle like I've mentioned where you can literally hear the tweeters pop in phase. Try it. Seriously. You'll notice it. Just shut everything off and leave your tweeters on. 

To illustrate what I've said, here's a comparison of the tweeters in proper polarity; adjusting the left tweeter so it arrives at the same time the right does. The red is with no time alignment. The orange is with time alignment done by ear. See how the red is about 2dB lower than the orange? The orange is in phase and time delayed to match the wavefront of the right side tweeter.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

With great tuning power, comes great responsibility.
I have the exact same sentiments as you going from the 9860/H700 which I used since 2005 , then to the Helix and then to the 6to8.
Im not a fan of having to get out the laptop to tune or check settings, but I deal with it bc I can do so much more, and as you said I am not limited to doing things bc I have to--now I at least have options.

and been there done that, on the turning the Tweets Xo point down and moving xo points around to adjust phasing and forgetting to put them back, then wondering why all this work you just did and things sound worse.......even more confusing when it actually starts sounding better:laugh:


----------



## Bluenote

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> sure haven't, man. I'd like to but doubt it'll ever happen.
> 
> I'm sure there's potential for issues with the driver imparting motion and resonance on the pillar itself but in my case, it doesn't seem to be an issue. I treated the pillar with some duct seal and CLD a couple weeks ago to help ease concern with this issue, though I didn't have a specific problem I set out to fix. This driver isn't playing low and the excursion is minimal, if at all.


Bikinpunk, thanks for the feedback and not to take the discussion off course: I had the opportunity to demo the Kef R300 / R100 today in San Francisco. Those are some awesome drivers...relatively small with a beautiful fit and finish. The R100 was'nt far behind the r300 in terms of realism and impact. I could live with either set haha! Thanks again Erin!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> and been there done that, on the turning the Tweets Xo point down and moving xo points around to adjust phasing and forgetting to put them back


I've done it so many times... you'd think I'd have learned my lesson by now. 




Bluenote said:


> Bikinpunk, thanks for the feedback and not to take the discussion off course: I had the opportunity to demo the Kef R300 / R100 today in San Francisco. Those are some awesome drivers...relatively small with a beautiful fit and finish. The R100 was'nt far behind the r300 in terms of realism and impact. I could live with either set haha! Thanks again Erin!


I am really, really impressed with the Q100 bookshelves for the relatively low price they run on ebay. IMO, the best value bookshelf available if you want hi-fi.


----------



## ErinH

Channel 6 is the right midbass. Full disclosure and all...


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin,

How are you setting up the loopback to do impulse measurements with a USB mic? I want to take some measurements but I can't for the life of me figure that out. I also ran a 3.5mm cable to the glovebox from the AUX input RCAs. 


My list of pros and cons on the 535 looks EXACTLY like yours.


----------



## ErinH

For loopback, you can't use a USB mic. You have to use something that will reference the output channel so it understands the length of time it took for the signal to be sent and received by the mic. So, for those kind of measurements I use the mobile pre and an XLR mic. 


Mostly, though, I just use the USB mic and only use loopback if I want to measure delay... Which is rare.


BTW, I totally forgot to get back with you about your email. I'll get on that soon.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Dammit, that's EXACTLY what I wanted to do. Impulse measurements and see if my TA is off or not. I really don't need to spend any more money especially if I end up needing to replace my front stage drivers. 

No worries. We all get busy. 

Diggin the hell out of the black background. I might do that even though the red matches the car. It's slick. Do you have glare issues during the day?


----------



## ErinH

Glare isn't bad that I've noticed. I haven't thought about it to be honest. Which is probably indicative of it not being an issue.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It's not horrible. I only really notice it on movies.


----------



## ecbmxer

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks great! I like that HU alot. I've been meaning to similarly run a set of RCAs into the aux port on my Alpine W900 for RTA/impulse measurements. I hate dealing with the quantity of wires behind these DD units though (mine also has the BT box, nav wires, etc).

Whenever I see Civics with the monster a-pillars I wonder if anyone has done a legit 6-1/2" 2way set just in the pillars. Maybe it would shake them apart.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> For loopback, you can't use a USB mic. You have to use something that will reference the output channel so it understands the length of time it took for the signal to be sent and received by the mic. So, for those kind of measurements I use the mobile pre and an XLR mic.
> 
> 
> Mostly, though, I just use the USB mic and only use loopback if I want to measure delay... Which is rare.
> 
> 
> BTW, I totally forgot to get back with you about your email. I'll get on that soon.


Wait, my mic IS XLR. I just need the mobile pre since my micmate is obviously not going to work. 

What's a good source?


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Wait, my mic IS XLR. I just need the mobile pre since my micmate is obviously not going to work.
> 
> What's a good source?


I'll sell you mine, cheap! Pm sent.


----------



## quality_sound

Never got it


----------



## Neil_J

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Never got it


Crap, almost forgot. Sending now.


----------



## eddieg

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hi Erin, 

Well - I have to thank you again for this post as I did not know the REW 5 software. 

I finally got my UMIK-1 from Minisdsp and it seems to be very accurate. 

Yesterday night I've done the first system calibration shootout using the combination above. 

I've reset all attenuation (I have a bit one and a carpc with optic out) and all eq settings.

What I've found out is that the tweeters are running with a volume difference of 2db (just as in your graph - interesting, i wonder why is that) in favor of the left tweeter.

I've also found out that from some reason my left woofer has a peak between 200hz to 400hz which the right one, does not -> fixed that by breaking the eq link between left and right woofers and got them running at a very similar response one to each other. 

I also leveled the tweeters to be on the same amplitude level. 

I did not know that it is possible to set the rta resolution to 1/3 octave so I quite molested the eq yesterday he he 

But after all was done and I got a pretty flat response (not taking in mind the subwoofer) I did not like the result at all on my reference music

So I started to attenuate the midranges and tweeters again and when I got to the results I like I was surprised that I hit a 0.5db away from my previous setup -> I guess that the ears are doing a good job. 

I was very tired and did not think of trying to set the resolutiong to 1/3 octave so I am going for another shoot out when I can only this time I already know that there is a volume gap of 2 db between both tweeters and already fixed the FR of the woofers so just the mid and tweet eq settings and attenuation are going to be worked at when I have a more sane resolution to work on. 

As for time alignment I find it best calibrating by ears up so far. 

Thanks,

Eddie


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sub'd in hope of eventual technical enlightenment, if I ever catch up.


----------



## brianhj

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What ya doin with the 15's?


----------



## ErinH

brianhj said:


> What ya doin with the 15's?


Like the Eagles said, they're Allllllllready Gone. 



I'll reply to you other dudes when I get some real computer time. Bathroom posting right now.


----------



## ErinH

Oh, it's not build log related but I wanted to share the good news... Ill be moving this summer. 3 car garage with a workshop. Woot!


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Oh, it's not build log related but I wanted to share the good news... Ill be moving this summer. 3 car garage with a workshop. Woot!


Sweet  Congrats... That only means one thing, more testing!!!!! :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



eddieg said:


> What I've found out is that the tweeters are running with a volume difference of 2db (just as in your graph - interesting, i wonder why is that) in favor of the left tweeter.


The difference is likely due to the proximity of the driver to you, being that it's closer. My 2dB gain was after time alignment which put the drivers in phase, which would provide more output (think of shutting one speaker off vs. another speaker off). This is not the same as what you're seeing.




eddieg said:


> I've also found out that from some reason my left woofer has a peak between 200hz to 400hz which the right one, does not -> fixed that by breaking the eq link between left and right woofers and got them running at a very similar response one to each other.


Most cars have issues between 80-400hz. Especially so in the 200-300hz area where there are strong modal issues most noticeable because it's in the vocal region and you notice over exaggeration of chesty voices (whereas most may not key in to modal issues below this because it's typically the region covered by instruments such as bass guitars/stand up bass). Most everyone I know either uses a gap in crossovers here or EQs 250hz to tame this down some.





eddieg said:


> But after all was done and I got a pretty flat response (not taking in mind the subwoofer) I did not like the result at all on my reference music


there are hundreds of ways to screw up your system tuning via RTA. A healthy dosage of ears is needed. It's something you have to learn on your own; it's not easily taught. Sounds like you're on your way, though.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> so 3 and 4 are your R300?



yep




cajunner said:


> what is the most important thing to get right, for anyone attempting to do what you've done here? Is it really that necessary to have the processor or can you get a decent image with just amplitude adjustments on passives, or.. you wouldn't have tried that, sorry..


depends on the goals. IMO, amplitude alone won't get you anywhere I personally want to be. You at least need time alignment and then the adjustable EQ helps to further the cause where overall levels and T/A can't. 




cajunner said:


> I'd like to see more of this kind of implementation, as personally I like the sound of a 5" midrange a bit better than what a 4 or 3 can do, and it's not all excursion based, it's got a lot to do with re-creating the same impact wave that a natural instrument makes, you move from the clarinet to the alto sax, and the pressure gradient changes, the sax sounds more natural coming off of a cone more closely related to mouth size of the horn...


I agree. The only tradeoff is earlier beaming.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subwoofery said:


> Sweet  Congrats... That only means one thing, more testing!!!!! :thumbsup:
> 
> Kelvin


yup.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Oh, it's not build log related but I wanted to share the good news... Ill be moving this summer. 3 car garage with a workshop. Woot!


Congrats!!! that's great to hear... hopefully your commute will be shorter...


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Oh, it's not build log related but I wanted to share the good news... Ill be moving this summer. 3 car garage with a workshop. Woot!


Awesome! Congrats.  Too bad by that time your install will be completely finalized and you won't need the workshop space. :/

NOT! 

You gonna put Roxul Safe N' Sound insulation in there?...in the garage at least...for speaker testing & tuning sessions?  I highly recommend a simple solar hot water system and radiant floor heat as well. Too bad your foundation has already been poured.

I also highly recommend the sprayed-in foam insulation, at least in the exterior walls and ceilings/roof rafters...definitely worth the extra cost upfront as you'll rarely have to use the A/C, and it will drastically reduce heating costs as well. And just like deadening your car, your house will be nice and quiet, too 

Looks like it's going to be a single-level, but if you'll have an upstairs, use the Roxul in your 1st level ceiling/between the floor joists for the upstairs', and use cast iron "quiet pipe", NOT PVC or ABS, for any waste drains. 

Might want to make sure you have a 220V/60Amp receptical and plenty of standard outlets in the garage for that welder, industrial air compressor, and HD shop tools you'll get in the future for fab work.  A utility sink in the garage comes in very handy as well.

Maybe a switchover circuit at your service panel for a generator for emergency power that is isolated from grid power when switched over. And an RV pad next to the garage with nearby waste/septic drain, 60Amp power hookup, and water hookup for when the folks or family/friends visit with their MoHo or travel trailer.

These are all things that are nearly impossible to do after the fact (and much more costly), but they'll make a HUGE difference for the life of your home and will increase resale value as well. Just my home building 101 rant. I've been there 3 times and have learned a few things each time the hard way. 

How 'bout a Tornado shelter for the fam? Seems to me I remember some twisters coming through nearby not too long ago!


----------



## mmiller

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Interesting build, thanks for posting.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> Awesome! Congrats.  Too bad by that time your install will be completely finalized and you won't need the workshop space. :/
> 
> NOT!
> 
> You gonna put Roxul Safe N' Sound insulation in there?...in the garage at least...for speaker testing & tuning sessions?  I highly recommend a simple solar hot water system and radiant floor heat as well. Too bad your foundation has already been poured.
> 
> I also highly recommend the sprayed-in foam insulation, at least in the exterior walls and ceilings/roof rafters...definitely worth the extra cost upfront as you'll rarely have to use the A/C, and it will drastically reduce heating costs as well. And just like deadening your car, your house will be nice and quiet, too
> 
> Looks like it's going to be a single-level, but if you'll have an upstairs, use the Roxul in your 1st level ceiling/between the floor joists for the upstairs', and use cast iron "quiet pipe", NOT PVC or ABS, for any waste drains.
> 
> Might want to make sure you have a 220V/60Amp receptical and plenty of standard outlets in the garage for that welder, industrial air compressor, and HD shop tools you'll get in the future for fab work.  A utility sink in the garage comes in very handy as well.
> 
> Maybe a switchover circuit at your service panel for a generator for emergency power that is isolated from grid power when switched over. And an RV pad next to the garage with nearby waste/septic drain, 60Amp power hookup, and water hookup for when the folks or family/friends visit with their MoHo or travel trailer.
> 
> These are all things that are nearly impossible to do after the fact (and much more costly), but they'll make a HUGE difference for the life of your home and will increase resale value as well. Just my home building 101 rant. I've been there 3 times and have learned a few things each time the hard way.
> 
> How 'bout a Tornado shelter for the fam? Seems to me I remember some twisters coming through nearby not too long ago!


I think you have my paypal, right? If so, feel free to send the money needed to cover these things. 

FWIW, it's a 2 story. The bonus room is over the garage.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So the sequester isn't touching you guys I take it .


----------



## Neil_J

thehatedguy said:


> So the sequester isn't touching you guys I take it .


Lol


----------



## ErinH

thehatedguy said:


> So the sequester isn't touching you guys I take it .


Well, that's the scary part. I don't know yet. No one really does. We started building in November but the real process didn't start until recently because of the weather. So its not like I signed papers last month. Hopefully I'll be alright but all I can do is keep my nose to the grindstone and keep working. I went through a layoff a few years back with NASA and I learned that this kind of thing is out of your control and the best thing to do is keep on keeping on. I actually came out better because of that. 

The last time we built we started in January and were in by July. That was doing about 50% of the work myself. I'm crossing my fingers we get in by August. I'm hoping to have massive GTG next year.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good luck, keep my fingers crossed it come out aok for you guys.


----------



## highly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> So the sequester isn't touching you guys I take it .


It's all up in my ass, that's for sure!

-T


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I think you have my paypal, right? If so, feel free to send the money needed to cover these things.
> 
> FWIW, it's a 2 story. The bonus room is over the garage.


Ahhh...hence the long I-joists smack dab in the middle of your photo, haha. Nice...will send the PayPal shortly if you send me all of your processors, P99, KEF mids, amps, subs... 

Oh, don't forget the stripper poles in the "Bonus room" for the next GTG, haha. Just tell the wifey that they're tuned port tubes for your HT subwoofer system.  I kid.

Well, spread out over the period of a 15- or 30-year mortgage, some of this stuff shouldn't add too much to your monthly.  But maybe you're paying cash from the sale of your previous house, eh? I'd like to see the cost difference of building that same house (including the land) in SoCal. 

Congrats again. Will be awesome to have the extra space and workshop, err...mad scientist's lab! 

And good luck with the sequester BS!


----------



## eddieg

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, 

First of all MAZAL-TOV  (it translate as good luck, mazal is actually luck and tov is good, but it really means congratulations! hebrew) for youre new home, make it a good one, from where I come we say - only health and happiness!

I answered in line - bold. 



bikinpunk said:


> The difference is likely due to the proximity of the driver to you, being that it's closer. My 2dB gain was after time alignment which put the drivers in phase, which would provide more output (think of shutting one speaker off vs. another speaker off). This is not the same as what you're seeing.
> 
> *Well - my tweeters are as well time alligned so it does explain it very well, though I think you are right and it is different as all my other components are also time alligned yet they are leveled very nicely.
> 
> Though I do time correction only between left side to right side and sub to right woofer.
> 
> I am going to test your suggestion about minor correction only between the tweeters to see if I can reduce (I hope I wrote that word correct) a bit of the hiss though the system is tuned very well.*
> 
> 
> Most cars have issues between 80-400hz. Especially so in the 200-300hz area where there are strong modal issues most noticeable because it's in the vocal region and you notice over exaggeration of chesty voices (whereas most may not key in to modal issues below this because it's typically the region covered by instruments such as bass guitars/stand up bass). Most everyone I know either uses a gap in crossovers here or EQs 250hz to tame this down some.
> 
> 
> *Hmmm - thanks, it is very relaxing for me to read this.
> I have a small grill issue I still need to handle on the right side door and a bit of padding behind the speakers (only dynamat for now on the external door wall)*
> 
> there are hundreds of ways to screw up your system tuning via RTA. A healthy dosage of ears is needed. It's something you have to learn on your own; it's not easily taught. Sounds like you're on your way, though.


 *Yeah - Agreed, though the issue I had was that it was hard for me to tune the EQ as the REW was set to "spectrum" instead of 1/3 octave, once changed that I was able to straighten out the mids and tweets much better, the result now is really hitting my taste in sound.*


----------



## eddieg

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, 

The trick with the TC offset 0.02 to 0.06 on the driver side tweeter (left in my case) is working really well, it reduces hiss in a distinguished amount without any need to change xover or attenuation settings. 

Really nice one! 

Thanks,

Eddie


----------



## brianhj

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Like the Eagles said, they're Allllllllready Gone.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll reply to you other dudes when I get some real computer time. Bathroom posting right now.


How were they IB? Lot of output? I have a 12W6V2 which is nice but I'd like to try IB


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

plenty of output.


----------



## brianhj

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> plenty of output.


dang man.. are you sitting at the computer pressing F5 repeatedly?


----------



## ErinH

Watching eBay.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

anything good?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

On my way to Kentucky today, I stopped by hifi buys in Nashville and had a killer time. 

I went there with the intention on demo'ing some soundbars since I'm looking at getting one for my new house. They carry B&W and I was interested to hear the B&W Panorama 2. I listeneted to some Def Tech as well as Klipsch. Not much to say here as soundbars really are what they are... I will say these things are VERY senstive to vertical placement. Disperson on the deftech I listened to was great. Tonally, it was overly bright. The B&W was nice but if you listened to it anywhere but directly at ear level, all the sound came from exactly where the speaker is. The Klipsch I listened to was half the price of these two and, IMO, was the best value. So, the trip was a success. I now have a good idea which way I want to go.

Talking with salesman, I expressed interest in hearing some stereo gear. He obliged. Next up was the super duper listening room with all sorts of speakers ranging from B&W to Wilson Audio to Revel. Crazy prices up from $5k to $48k. 

The Wilsons I listened to were these:
Wilson Audio: The Alexia Loudspeaker - Specifications

The B&W I listened to was the 802d with _*diamond tweeters*_ which cost $1k to replace:
Experience the B&W 802 Diamond - Bowers & Wilkins | B&W Speakers










Listening to these speakers was quite an experience. The environment was chock full of Mcintosh gear powering and as signal source. The soundstage was HUUUUUGE. Tonality was so pleasing... just a wonderful, nice, nothing-standing-out, tonality. It was just such a cool experience. Both speakers seemed to have the same characteristics. I'm sure if I sat and critically, critically listened I could pick out things different about them. But my high level demo provided me with some key things I wanted to know (namely placement of things on the stage, location of singers, tone and amplitude of low bass notes, etc).

I listened to a few of my go-to tracks. Spanish Harlem: She's a lot closer to the upright bass than I previously thought. The third pluck is indeed much more 'present' and it actually does seem to bloom more than I thought it did/should. I'll be revisiting my tune based on this. I listened to a lot of other tracks but I'll spare the subjective thoughts. All I know is it was a great experience and the salesman (Paul) couldn't have been a nicer guy. Dude used to be an IASCA judge in the early 90's. After a few demos, I think he got the gist of what I wanted to hear so as we moved in to other rooms or other equipment he'd pop my demo disc in and head straight for Money for Nothin' and turn it up. The room is really the important factor here. It was large which certainly played well to the listening experience. One thing I really thought was cool was how technically knowledgeable the salesman was. He pointed me to a dead spot in the room where there was bass null. I've visited a few high end shops over the past couple years like this and this was the first time I had a salesman even mention the interaction with the room. After I told him that, he opened up and started discussing all sorts of stuff with me. Half the fun of the visit there was just chatting with him.

Doing this was exactly what the doctor ordered for me. I've been fighting issues and have really been aggravated with car audio the past couple weeks; to the point where I was about to kick it all to the curb for a month or so and come back to it later. The listening session I had today gave me some motivation and desire to get back to tuning. It also showed me that the big name brand speakers are voiced to provide roughly the same tonality I try to achieve in the car which says that the measurement curve I shoot for translates well to home audio. Though, thanks to my car audio background, I have more below 50hz. 


If you live or are around the Nashville area and can go during a time where they're slow, stop by and ask to demo some gear. They were happy to oblige and let me demo my own music... at full volumes. Some of the other salespeople thought the dude was crazy for blasting Dire Straits but we dug it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

if anyone here wants to know my (subjective) thoughts on the soundbars I demo'd and specific models, I'll be happy to share. Just didn't want to waste the typing if no one cares.


----------



## pyropoptrt

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm definitely curious to hear about the soundbars that stood out to you. Also very interested in hearing more about the measurement curve you shoot for.


----------



## fish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, now that the initial new factor is gone (maybe), I was wondering if you could share what you're hearing with the 13TW5's that differs from the IB15's?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



pyropoptrt said:


> I'm definitely curious to hear about the soundbars that stood out to you. Also very interested in hearing more about the measurement curve you shoot for.


there's not a whole lot to tell. but, here's the list of the 3 I listened to:
Bowers & Wilkins Panorama 2 TV sound bar surround sound systems
Klipsch HD Theater SB 3 Soundbar with Wireless Subwoofer - By Line
SoloCinema XTR | Definitive Technology®

All are powered, which makes life easy. The B&W and DefTech both have HDMI inputs. The Klipsch does not, which means you'd have to use your sources' digital out... which likely means an AVR to do all the AV processing. 

All of these really require you to be on the same vertical plane if you want 'better' sound. 

the B&W was the most noticeable in terms of this need. Standing above the B&W or off to the side too far, it sounded downright bad. You could close your eyes and pinpoint the source of the sound easily. However, tonally it sounded much more like a stereo setup once you got on the same plane it was sitting. Installed and aimed toward the listener, I think it's a great speaker.

The DefTech did an EXCELLENT job at spreading the chaos around the room and giving a great sense of envelopment. for not being a steering soundbar, it sounded really nice. The highs were hot but I'd guess it's done to give the sound a much more detailed sound (which probably sounds great on the salesfloor but causes fatigue at home). The deftech comes with a wireless sub which did really, really well for it's small footprint and location in the room.

The Klipsch, soundwise, was the standout to me in terms of value. It has a wireless sub which wasn't blended too well but did a satisfactory job for my personal needs. The sound wasn't crisp like the deftech but it also didn't seem to have the tonality the B&W did. That said, it just did a real good job of sounding good for movies and music; plenty output, good enough tonality for me. If it had HDMI inputs, I'd buy it, no doubt. But I figure you add another $200 for that convenience and it kind of makes you consider the other options available. 

All of them had _plenty _of output, fwiw. 

====================================================


the curve I go for isn't so much of a curve. I just shoot for something more along the lines of the sound power response, taking in to account room interaction. A boosted low end starting around 160hz and increasing about 12-15dB at 20hz. Otherwise, it's pretty much flat until about 8khz. A lot of people in car audio do the same thing. I think the JBL curve is pretty much the same to some degree. so, when I say the curve I shoot for sounded like those speakers, I mean to say I didn't notice anything standing out with the speakers I listened to yesterday which made it easy to get used to what they were doing. There was nothing that made me say "wow, mine DEFINITELY doesn't do that". Overall, they sounded better than anything I've heard but I think so much of that was the room they were in. the speakers had plenty of output and sounded great, though.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



fish said:


> Erin, now that the initial new factor is gone (maybe), I was wondering if you could share what you're hearing with the 13TW5's that differs from the IB15's?


I don't know how to put it in to words. I think it had a lot to do with the fact the trunk really is just a large enclosure and the AE's needed more airspace than I could give them. There were certain issues i couldn't fix; certain ringing/decay issues inherent to the IB install itself that cleared up when I went sealed. YMMV.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I wish I lived in Nashville... I'd get a 2nd job at hifi buys just to demo their systems daily. lol.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Did you check Yamaha's offering? 
They seem to have really good reviews with some websites stating that the most expensive YSP is the reference for soundbars... 

Least expensive is the YSP-2200 (MSRP $999) to the most expensive YSP-5100 (MSRP $2,200) 
They all have (I think) a subwoofer and some nice features

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

I haven't yet. Can't find a store with one to demo. It's on my list though. I may have to order and try it via crutchfield.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I haven't yet. Can't find a store with one to demo. It's on my list though. I may have to order and try it via crutchfield.


Using it in your salon (sitting room) would be the best thing to do :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That Hi Fi Buys is where I got all of my home audio and some of my car audio. The stuff I got was not super high end stuff but nice, Pioneer receiver, Klipsch Synergy speakers and powered sub. You're right, super nice people there in the car audio and home stereo area. Only place I care to go.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'd love to have a place like that in Huntsville. And I would be happy to spend my money with them. they had high prices as marked, but the guy told me what they'd be willing to take on some of the things I was listening and they were all really quite reasonable. especially considering you get the warranty.

Did you get a chance to demo their big boy speakers at all? They were in the room directly behind the front desk area. I believe the salesman told me they just finished up the room that had the $$$$ speakers in recently.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I was there about 3 weeks ago but did not look at any of the home audio. After reading your comments about your visit I might have to pay them another visit next weekend. It's becoming very clear to me that for me to get an idea on how my truck should sound I need a good reference system to compare so I'm thinking I need to do something with my home audio now.


----------



## lashlee

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I wish I lived in Nashville... I'd get a 2nd job at hifi buys just to demo their systems daily. lol.


I used to get some of my stuff from them, and one of the guys I worked with eventually left our shop and went to work for them. I thoroughly enjoy visiting them whenever I make it up there. I bought my first set of components from there back in the early 90's. It's good to hear that they are still going strong and still able to put what's important (the customer) in front in the day and age of the net and the cheaper guy always wins.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Blah sound bars...

More curious to the differences between the Wilson, B&W, and Revels.

So the judge's training Mic went to presented the bass in the wrong way in Spanish Harlem?


----------



## ErinH

I dunno what Mic heard. And maybe our subjective terms are different. All I know is the third bass note does have bloom to it. It's just not to the degree or longevity typical car audio systems present.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Blah sound bars...
> 
> More curious to the differences between the Wilson, B&W, and Revels.
> 
> So the judge's training Mic went to presented the bass in the wrong way in Spanish Harlem?


How did you infer that?
when you were in or near the sweet spot it was as accurate as I have ever heard it. when you moved to the right side, there was a noticeable swell in the 65hz region, which was already known by the guy who built the studio.

So being able to move and hear both, was extremely beneficial. Many cars exhibit the swell in the 63to80hz region.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Monitors are usually meant to be listened to on axis, in which you said there was no bloom...the notes were played even.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

a non-car-audio update...

the house is moving strong now that framing is nearing completion. 











In case you're wondering why the house is shiny:
http://www.radiantbarrier.com/house-wrap.htm

We wrapped the last home in this and (I believe) it helped a whole lot with energy bills. We also did blown cellulose insulation (and will be again) so I can't say the "nasa wrap" is the bees knees but for the relatively minor cost to wrap the house in it now, it's a no brainer. 


the 3rd car garage is going to be my pride and joy. nothing fancy and surely outdone by some here, I'm sure. But just the fact that I have my own bay is going to be cool, though. It'll be my lab at home. 
26x14x9. 





























the bonus room upstairs is going to be an HT. I don't have the funds to purchase gear for it now but I'm going to be wiring it up for 7.4 HT purposes and the closet in the back will be my home run closet where all my distributed audio and control system will be in case I ever decide to do whole house audio or something fancy like that. cheap to run wire myself before sheetrock goes up (and getting past the blown insulation isn't going to be pretty then).

The front wall has a window in it which will be blacked out. Without a window and closet, resale value is affected so I dealt with it. On the right side (looking toward the window) is the outside of the house. On the left is the attic space and is where I'll be using my IB subs to blow through from, most likely. I was worried about the kneewalls but luckily they're not near as obtrusive as I thought they were going to be. 
Room size is about 26x16. 










looking back at the room, media closet on the left.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's friggin cool.


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats! I can only dream, as a pad like that in my area would reach north of 8 figures!


----------



## Lorin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

26 deep is almost a two car garage (depth wise). awesome


----------



## BigRed

Erin is gonna drive his car into that room and call it his media center. Lol


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigRed said:


> Erin is gonna drive his car into that room and call it his media center. Lol


Yep, he already has KEF drivers so... 

Kelvin


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> a non-car-audio update...
> 
> the house is moving strong now that framing is nearing completion.


Sweet house, congrats! But that doesn't look like 25% coverage to me.


----------



## ErinH

Haha. That's pretty good, Frank. 


I foresee some really fun GTGs in the future.


----------



## ecbmxer

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Stoked for you on the house! Hope to do something similar one day! In terms of the home audio speakers, you ever look into building some? (I know you were talking soundbars, but still) I like this dude's designs: Speaker Design Works and he gives you all of the enclosure and crossover details. I build some of his Tritrix speakers that sound real nice, but there are higher end ones as well.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice car and house, Erin! I'm looking forward to your updates on both. 

Almost a year ago I bought some Aperion Audio Verus Grand Towers online after doing a ton of internet research. Not sure if you have your gear for the house picked out but they have some great sounding stuff and give you a free 30 day in-home trial. 7.4 is going to sound truly amazing.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've owned Aperion before and was happy with the experience as well. Great CS. 
Though, I'm very much considering going with Kef. I just need to take a trip to Nashville and demo a set of the R700's. 
I've not entirely ruled out doing a baffle wall build, though. This is so far out for me right now, though. I'm just focusing on wiring. I'll deal with speakers and components when I get moved in. 

I'm wiring for 7.4 but not sure I'll actually use it. A buddy of mine came by the house today and reminded me to run speaker wire and not just coax for the subs. I totally forgot that. So, I'll be running 4 runs of speaker wire along with coax so I have the option to go powered sub or external power from the rack.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Are you competing the car again anytime soon?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, as a dedicated midrange, would you say the R series is definitely a step up from the Q series? Just thinking in advance for my next project. I sometimes listen loud, and after hearing a set of Q900's, I was wondering how much better the R series was, being that I have room for the larger driver.


----------



## ErinH

Golden Ear said:


> Are you competing the car again anytime soon?


There's a show this weekend I want to make. As long as I get my house wiring done Saturday I should be able to compete Sunday.


----------



## ErinH

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Erin, as a dedicated midrange, would you say the R series is definitely a step up from the Q series? Just thinking in advance for my next project. I sometimes listen loud, and after hearing a set of Q900's, I was wondering how much better the R series was, being that I have room for the larger driver.


It's hard to compare apples to apples but I'd say I noticed a difference at high volumes. I can flat out wail on the r300 drivers and they keep their composure. Even with the tweeter crossed at about 2900hz with a 12dB slope. The Q100 mid didn't seem to take the extreme levels the same way. Though, i haven't really tried to exploit that issue for root cause analysis. 

How'd you like the q900? I'm actually considering that as well simply because of the price. I have yet to read any review that said it didn't perform better than speakers costing significantly more. And with 3 8's it sure would be fine without a sub.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Fair enough. Since my next car audio project is a ways off due to buying a house, I may pick up some Q900's first, and try the driver out of them to see how it performs in car.


The Q900's sounded good, best I've heard. Just happened to find out a coworker had them, which is nice since the closest dealer is 4+ hours away. They were in a relatively small room, so bass extension was plenty for almost any music. I want to go back with my cds sometime.


----------



## SPLEclipse

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I'd love to have a place like that in Huntsville. And I would be happy to spend my money with them. they had high prices as marked, but the guy told me what they'd be willing to take on some of the things I was listening and they were all really quite reasonable. especially considering you get the warranty.
> 
> Did you get a chance to demo their big boy speakers at all? They were in the room directly behind the front desk area. I believe the salesman told me they just finished up the room that had the $$$$ speakers in recently.


I don't know how long you've been in Huntsville, but they used to have a high-end shop called (I _think_) "Tweeters" off of University. They've been shut down since the early 2000s, but I used to share an apartment with one of the guys who worked there, and we had many after-hours demo sessions.  It was a blast listening to all kinds of stuff, from reference material to NIN and Nirvana to rap and everything inbetween on $250k worth of equipment! There was a set of Def Techs there that weren't even too glamorous, just a set of 3-way towers that to this day I'm still trying to reproduce.


----------



## ErinH

Yep. I know a couple dudes that worked there. Some are members here.


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, if you are ever in NC, look up Ron Buffington, I think it's Liquid Audio for your listening pleasure..


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> There's a show this weekend I want to make. As long as I get my house wiring done Saturday I should be able to compete Sunday.


Did you make it to the show? If so, how'd you do?


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Golden Ear said:


> Did you make it to the show? If so, how'd you do?


If I'm not mistaken, a congrats is in order with the highest SQ score in the entire show .


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



papasin said:


> If I'm not mistaken, a congrats is in order with the highest SQ score in the entire show .


thanks. yea, I did better than I expected. I had a settings blunder a few days before the show and had to do some re-tuning. I managed to get it in order just before the show. I don't think I had it sounding as good as I had before I lost the settings but it still worked out well for me. Sometimes ya' get lucky.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

congrats!!!! as my POPPOP used to say, it's better to be lucky than good, (or married for that matter, but that was another saying for another time)


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Great thread Erin, thanks for posting up the helpful data and processes.

Can you comment on your switch from the Illuminators to the JL ZR800 please? I know you were wild about the Scans. Was this simply for the extra SD or did you need something with a different qts for your kick enclosures? Looking at JL's specs (and assuming they are legit), it looks like stated linear xmax is pretty much identical at 9mm one way. Is that correct? What have you noticed as a comparison performance wise between the two?


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Also, early on in the thread (post #8 http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1823172-post8.html), you go into some detail about sound power, dispersion, beaming and crossover points and how these relate.
What happens when you're not using a traditional cone shaped driver? For example, I will be using planar drivers from BG (mid and tweeter). Do they have a totally different radiating pattern and does all of that go out the window? Do they actually beam like a cone speaker? How would someone then best match crossover points for these drivers?

Thanks and again- awesome thread. I'm saving this one as there's a ton of great stuff in here for me to read over (again) and consider.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I chose the 8's for a couple reasons. Namely, surface area. They play with some serious authority. So much, in fact, that I was actually running sub-less at the last meet and got my highest score yet. And got a 9/10 on the sub freuqencies score. 
They have a better transient attack, likely due to the fact they're breathing wide open behind them rather than being choked down by an AP mat like the Scans were. 


As for the cone shape, it's hit or miss. Some flat cones behave more like radial cones. Just look at the mfg's data. Most of the good ones (peerless and TB, iirc) have off-axis data in their spec sheet. Others' data can help you out as well.


----------



## asota

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I chose the 8's for a couple reasons. Namely, surface area. They play with some serious authority. So much, in fact, that I was actually running sub-less at the last meet and got my highest score yet. And got a 9/10 on the sub freuqencies score.
> They have a better transient attack, likely due to the fact they're breathing wide open behind them rather than being choked down by an AP mat like the Scans were.
> 
> 
> As for the cone shape, it's hit or miss. Some flat cones behave more like radial cones. Just look at the mfg's data. Most of the good ones (peerless and TB, iirc) have off-axis data in their spec sheet. Others' data can help you out as well.


Wow don't let anyone know you ran sub-less and got good scores. I was called a liar and got several negative feedbacks for admitting the same thing.


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## ErinH

asota said:


> Wow don't let anyone know you ran sub-less and got good scores. I was called a liar and got several negative feedbacks for admitting the same thing.


Well, I did it purely by mistake. I was at my house the day before the comp running wire in the garage and wanted tunes. So I turned on my car radio. Didn't want to bother the neighbors with bass so I turned the sub off. A couple days later I thought I was missing some low end so went to turn the sub up and realized it was still off. Go figure.


----------



## Neil_J

How noisy was the venue where judging was taking place? Were there any SPL vehicles burping or blasting dubstep during your run?


----------



## asota

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Well, I did it purely by mistake. I was at my house the day before the comp running wire in the garage and wanted tunes. So I turned on my car radio. Didn't want to bother the neighbors with bass so I turned the sub off. A couple days later I thought I was missing some low end so went to turn the sub up and realized it was still off. Go figure.


My problem was a Made in China glass fuse with a bad solder to end cap. Amp would turn-on and play but would shut down under any load. I'm running the Scans in very well damped doors 44hz 24db x-over.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've kind of taken time off from car audio. I'm sticking to my guns on the whole "not changing gear" thing and I've just been working at tuning what I have. In the meantime, I've been working on my house stuff and figured I'd share some of that information for a change.





I spent half the day a couple weekends ago wiring up my bonus room. Since wire is pretty cheap, I went ahead and wired up the stuff I'm certain I'll never actually use, much less need. But why not, right?
:wave:

I decided to go with 9.4 wiring (the x.4 because I'm a huge proponent of multiple subs to smooth response). 

I ran 12g 4-conductor wire for the front L/C/R in case I actually go through with a baffle wall build and DIY my own front stage. Or, I can just use the wires ran to bi-amp each speaker. For the 4 subs I went 2 in front, and 2 in the rear area. Subs were all ran with both a coax and 12g speaker wire so I have the flexibility for a powered sub or going with a separate amp (mainly for IB). Speaking of IB, I have tons of attic space on either side of the room. The two rear subs' mounting brackets were placed at ear level so I can play around with height subs. As part of the 9.x setup, I also ran wires for front highs; this is the one I'm most curious about. I ran a redmere HDMI along with (2) cat6 runs to the PJ just in case times change on me. 













Closet pictures:








This is one attic side of the room, where I plan to place the IB subs toward the front:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Neil_J said:


> How noisy was the venue where judging was taking place? Were there any SPL vehicles burping or blasting dubstep during your run?


didn't see this, Neil. My apologies. 

It wasn't loud. There were the typical knuckleheads but nothing terrible. Vinny was the judge. I know you've had him before so maybe that gives you a point of reference.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

A break from car audio to focus on the home audio is understandable, especially with what you're installing. Since the house can't move like a car can, are you going to invite us all over for a listen when it's ready?


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks like it's going to be killer. My vote is for 4 JL Audio Fathoms.  But what you have planned will probably sound just as impressive knowing your M.O.  ...Oh, maybe a separate thread for your HT setup?


----------



## rich20730

That sounds like it's going to be an awesome setup. Do you have any plans for noise isolation or acoustic treatment?


----------



## ultimatemj

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Off topic - but on topic for your attic wiring. Don't forget the front wides!


> Wides Before Heights
> 
> One key finding from the research is that first side wall reflections play a great role in determining subjective impression. The most important direction of reflected sound was found to be ±60° relative to the front. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Wide channels (LW and RW) at ±60° with appropriate frequency response and perceptual processing to match these requirements of human hearing. These Wide channels are much more critical in the presentation of a realistic soundstage than the Back Surround channels found in traditional 7.1 systems. Adding surround channels behind the listener has a very small impact compared to the increase in envelopment and soundstage width that the Wide channels provide.


Adding the wides to my HT made as big of a difference as multiple subs~


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rich20730 said:


> That sounds like it's going to be an awesome setup. Do you have any plans for noise isolation or acoustic treatment?


nope. too much $$$ for it to be useful for me. I'll be doing treatment like bass traps and absorption panels but no double layer drywall with green glue or resilient clips, if that's what you mean.


----------



## ecbmxer

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good stuff man! I'm hoping to finally build some mains for my theater setup this summer. I built a center and some bookshelves that I planned to use for surrounds, but somehow they turned into my mains for the past two years.


----------



## rich20730

bikinpunk said:


> nope. too much $$$ for it to be useful for me. I'll be doing treatment like bass traps and absorption panels but no double layer drywall with green glue or resilient clips, if that's what you mean.


Just curious because lately I've been experimenting with acoustical treatments in my living room and, while I've already installed about as much my wife will tolerate, the science seems to indicate that my "bass traps" need to be much thicker, wider, and farther away from the walls to actually trap any bass. It would be cool to be able integrate these sorts of things in the construction phase so it doesn't stand out like sore thumb when you're finished. 

It's fun stuff though. I'm going to try making some membrane absorbers and helmholtz absorbers to see if that works any better in the lower frequencies.


----------



## sulla123

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have a 350z convertible. I'm interested in using the kef drive units in some of nazar's 350z door pods. As this would be an IB type situation, do you think this would work given your measurements? What crossover points would you suggest using? Thank you for any input!


----------



## sulla123

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

As a 20 year vet in the home audio arena, here's my .02 as I've owned nearly every high end brand out there. McIntosh- pricey, pretty. Reliable, and excellent service. Can't go wrong. B&W - overpriced, beams, trading on their name. In the speaker arena, for the money, kef 207's used, or, if you prefer, Magnepan. Can't go wrong. Over the last 20 years, I've had Krell, Levinson, Pass, Rowland, Wilsons, B&W, Maggies, Logans, Kef's, McIntosh, SimAudio, and on and on. And NONE of that makes any difference if the room you put them in is not treated, has horrible surfaces, odd angles, and the like. If you want general rec, McIntosh for reliability, KEF 207's if you have a bigger room. Good luck. It's a pricey merry go round you're about to get on. Buy it used. Check Audiogon. They've gone down hill a bit, but still way better than FleaBay.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, I've had a pretty decent change in plans due to this new home stuff. In a quest to put some money in my pocket to go toward some building expenses, I'm simplifying the install and gear. The PS8 is gone and the w535hd is coming out soon and the RFQ5000 will be sold as well. Sometimes you gotta do what needs to be done.

I'm currently playing with these three headunits:
CDA-117
DVA-9861
IVA-W200


for DSP I'm most likely going to be using the PXA-H800 (which I have set up on the bench as well; you can see the RUX-C800 in the pictures below). I figure if I'm running Alpine headunit it makes sense to use an alpine dsp simply for ai-net. Plus I can also get rid of the Rockford RFQ and use the h800 plII for rear fill processing. That means I'll have to go passive on the fronts, so I've spent a little bit of time playing with PCD to determine a good passive design. 

I won't be installing anything for at least a month or so, though. Tomorrow all of this stuff will be packed up in preparation for our move in a couple weeks. The good thing about waiting is the new house's garage won't be one million degrees inside. Truth be told, I've been really burned out on the hobby lately and need a break from it. I don't think I'll be competing next season but I do plan to finish out the season and then just try to have more GTGs again. 

Anyway... just caught some downtime and felt like sharing. If nothing else, you can see how the rux-c800 looks with the decks. *shrugs*

- Erin


----------



## TheBlindMan

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Well, I've had a pretty decent change in plans due to this new home stuff. In a quest to put some money in my pocket to go toward some building expenses, I'm simplifying the install and gear. The PS8 is gone and the w535hd is coming out soon and the RFQ5000 will be sold as well. Sometimes you gotta do what needs to be done.
> 
> I'm currently playing with these three headunits:
> CDA-117
> DVA-9861
> IVA-W200
> 
> 
> for DSP I'm most likely going to be using the PXA-H800 (which I have set up on the bench as well; you can see the RUX-C800 in the pictures below). I figure if I'm running Alpine headunit it makes sense to use an alpine dsp simply for ai-net. Plus I can also get rid of the Rockford RFQ and use the h800 plII for rear fill processing. That means I'll have to go passive on the fronts, so I've spent a little bit of time playing with PCD to determine a good passive design.
> 
> I won't be installing anything for at least a month or so, though. Tomorrow all of this stuff will be packed up in preparation for our move in a couple weeks. The good thing about waiting is the new house's garage won't be one million degrees inside. Truth be told, I've been really burned out on the hobby lately and need a break from it. I don't think I'll be competing next season but I do plan to finish out the season and then just try to have more GTGs again.
> 
> Anyway... just caught some downtime and felt like sharing. If nothing else, you can see how the rux-c800 looks with the decks. *shrugs*
> 
> - Erin



May i ask what bugs/cons you have found while installing/tuning the PS8?


----------



## quality_sound

I didn't see where he mentioned any issues with his PS8. ???


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



TheBlindMan said:


> May i ask what bugs/cons you have found while installing/tuning the PS8?


it's super small. no issues installing. i didn't find any real bugs or cons in the GUI worth speaking of.


----------



## Neil_J

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I'm currently playing with these three headunits:
> CDA-117
> DVA-9861
> IVA-W200
> 
> 
> for DSP I'm most likely going to be using the PXA-H800 (which I have set up on the bench as well; you can see the RUX-C800 in the pictures below). I figure if I'm running Alpine headunit it makes sense to use an alpine dsp simply for ai-net. Plus I can also get rid of the Rockford RFQ and use the h800 plII for rear fill processing. That means I'll have to go passive on the fronts, so I've spent a little bit of time playing with PCD to determine a good passive design.
> 
> Anyway... just caught some downtime and felt like sharing. If nothing else, you can see how the rux-c800 looks with the decks. *shrugs*
> 
> - Erin


Wow, seems like a change of heart, I know you had a lot of grief from the H800 when it came out. I will say that it seems all the bugs have been worked out, so hopefully it will go better this time around.

My plans have changed as well recently, I'm currently running the H800 with CDA-117 and the RUX-C800 in a double DIN metra adapter, with passive crossovers on the midrange and tweet (no issues there, I believe BigRed won first at finals or something like that with the set I ended up with). So I can say it's a pretty well proven combo. The RUX and CDA-117 definitely don't look out of place next to each other. Any way, good luck (not that you need it, I think you could make a Jensen tape player sound good just by adjusting the balance and treble knobs  ).


----------



## papasin

Where's the Like button? Setup looks strangely familiar .

In all seriousness, been running with the H800/RUX combo in my Civic for some time now thru a few comps with ZERO issues.

Neil, Re: BigRed, IIRC, Jim wasn't using the H800 for master class CA state finals last year (he did win by a good margin though  ). I believe he was using a Bit1 with a mini-DSP for rear fill. I have heard BigRed with the H800 though in a couple different iterations this year before the engine blew and it was phenomenal. Don't want to really compare and I know people get touchy about the saying of "the best", but I have heard several of the top vehicles in CA and to what I have had the pleasure to listen to (and this isn't intended as a slight to other of the top cars in CA), BigRed in the last iteration with an H800 for processing was the best I had the pleasure to hear .


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


>



Is it just me, or does that 9861 just have a little more quality look about it?


----------



## ErinH

I agree. Thats partly why I bought it as one to choose from. The layout looks better to me. I do wish it had biolite (a la the 9855; the dual color biolite of the 9886/117 looks bad to me). I think if it did it would look a bit better without being overdone. 

They all have their tradeoffs, though. At least to me.


----------



## ErinH

Neil_J said:


> Wow, seems like a change of heart, I know you had a lot of grief from the H800 when it came out. I will say that it seems all the bugs have been worked out, so hopefully it will go better this time around.


For sure. The h800 I had when they first came out was a landmine. I was pissed off about that whole ordeal (product and transaction) for at least a year. But when I sold the ps8 i needed a replacement quick (for a show i planned to attend and never did) and Kirk had an h800 for a reasonable price so I bought his combo expecting to install it then. 

Figured it made sense to use the h800 again since it has PL2 and overall seems to be problem free. And as you know, if you own an alpine PXA it also makes sense to use an alpine ai-net deck. Thus, the 3 alpine decks I have on the bench. 

Overall, though, this direction will allow me to get some money and simplify a bit. Not really sure it will stay; I need to install it all. But it just seemed like a good way to go all around. Especially considering my state of mind regarding car audio lately. I've been focusing much more if my attention on being a dad. Car audio isn't worth the stress and time it's taken from me the past year. Being 'somebody' in this community isn't really important to me anymore. If I'm being honest with you guys, I used to want to have a name for myself in competition and I liked that people looked to me as someone with knowledge on the subject ... guess i was truing to fill a spot somewhere or just occupying boredom. But, I honestly could care less anymore. I'm just trying to get back to having fun rocking out and listening to tunes with friends.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> For sure. The h800 I had when they first came out was a landmine. I was pissed off about that whole ordeal (product and transaction) for at least a year. But when I sold the ps8 i needed a replacement quick (for a show i planned to attend and never did) and Kirk had an h800 for a reasonable price so I bought his combo expecting to install it then. Figured it made sense since it has PL2 and overall seems to be problem free. And as you know, if you own an alpine PXA it also makes sense to use an alpine ai-net deck. Thus, the 3 alpine decks I have on the bench. Overall, though, this direction will allow me to get some money and simplify a bit. Not really sure it will stay; I need to install it all. But it just seemed like a good way to go all around. Especially considering my state of mind regarding car audio lately. I've been focusing much more if my attention on being a dad. Car audio isn't worth the stress and time it's taken from me the past year. Being 'somebody' in this community isn't really important to me anymore. If I'm being honest with you guys, I used to want to have a name for myself in competition and I liked that people looked to me as someone with knowledge on the subject ... guess i was truing to fill a spot somewhere or just occupying boredom. But, I honestly could care less anymore. I'm just trying to get back to having fun rocking out and listening to tunes with friends.


I'm looking to change out my pioneer dd hu with a new one and was looking into alpine myself. Are you mainly going with alpine for a hu because its the same brand as the processor and you already have them, or would you have chosen alpine anyway?


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

From his description he figures ifn ya gonna use a PxA processor, might as well utilize alpines proprietary AI net connection.......


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In my limited experience with competition, I have to say that the gtg vibe is a lot more entertaining. In the couple of times I've been to shows, everyone seems preoccupied. I don't know if its anxiety from the judging or what, but while everyone's been kind and accepting of "the new Guy", they all have that "plainface" look of preoccupation. Of course this all disappears after the awards are handed out, but after all that combined with travel and all, everyone's beat, and they rush off. I've been the only one demoing cars until asking for demos loosens a few up and they ask for one in return. Its still fun for me, but I can see in some faces that its not for some, while they talk that "it doesn't matter to me" they display a very stressed physical demeanor. Gtg vibe is a lot more relaxed, nothing to prove,and after the first few hours of everyone getting comfortable with the folks they don't know really loosens up........but I am a huge fan of social interaction and observation of human behavior......very interesting to observe a group of folks, especially that are new to each other and watch the evolution of different social theories play out........ is there such a thing as a behavior nerd?..........LOL


----------



## bertholomey

Clay - Great description of the typical competition dynamic - certainly can be fun if folks you know are there and you can hang out and jaw, but the G2Gs are a blast. 

Erin - I liked the statement about paying more attention on being a Dad - I can see how it would be hard to spend time away from your awesome daughter.


----------



## papasin

^ now I'm looking for the thanks button . Yep and yep!

Had a blast at JT's gtg couple weeks back. In contrast, we decided to skip the triple competition weekend, with part two in my own home city today (San Jose) all things considered in favor of going to Legoland near San Diego with the family. Now I haven't completely written off competition, but I fully respect those that put priority on family first, as it should be!


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Watched the movie 'Chasing Mavericks' last night - (highly recommended) - this was a prominent theme in that movie, so it is really cool to see that reinforced here.....a couple times in the last few posts


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bertholomey said:


> Watched the movie 'Chasing Mavericks' last night - (highly recommended) - this was a prominent theme in that movie, so it is really cool to see that reinforced here.....a couple times in the last few posts


Absolutely!

I live about 30 minutes from where that movie was filmed


----------



## Neil_J

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



papasin said:


> Neil, Re: BigRed, IIRC, Jim wasn't using the H800 for master class CA state finals last year (he did win by a good margin though  ). I believe he was using a Bit1 with a mini-DSP for rear fill. I have heard BigRed with the H800 though in a couple different iterations this year before the engine blew and it was phenomenal. Don't want to really compare and I know people get touchy about the saying of "the best", but I have heard several of the top vehicles in CA and to what I have had the pleasure to listen to (and this isn't intended as a slight to other of the top cars in CA), BigRed in the last iteration with an H800 for processing was the best I had the pleasure to hear .


Sorry, I was referring to BigRed using the Hybrid L2x crossovers at finals, not the H800. I purchased my L2x set from him about a month back  I know Erin was debating on whether or not to go passive on his tweets and mids, I think it's a perfectly reasonable compromise (even if 180 degrees from the normal diyma spirit) and just trying to point out that others have had award-winning installs that were partially passive. Now I'm on that smaller bandwagon as well, and have had good luck myself.


----------



## BigRed

Passives work fine especially when the mid and tweet are literally mm apart. Besides, Erin will make it work. I have complete faith in that project


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

indeed. I'm not really worried about it. Not to say crossover design is trivial but knowing exactly where each speaker is and understanding it's limits makes it easier to do what I want. And I happen to have that info. 



















The above is the FR of the mid and the tweeter individually. 

I've come up with a couple designs that I'm going to test out. 

1) DIY passive:
With my design, I'm aiming to achieve a target _acoustic_ filter of 2.8khz, LR4.
The tweeter being hornloaded results in a higher output on the lower end. To combat this, I have chosen to use an electrical HPF/2nd order at 5.1khz and textbook components. This seems to work well.
The woofer needed more work. I chose 2khz/2nd order electrical LPF and then adjusted the cap values to mitigate the breakup mode to a point where it's about 12dB below the target SPL (85dB). 

This is what I have so far:










The black line represents the simulated FR. The green line represents sound power calculated via driver diameter. It trends well with the black line which is what I want. 




2) Pre-tested crossover. 

2a) Off the shelf from PE:
Back when I had the driver on the test baffle, I used a 3khz LR2 electrical crossover via the DSP and came up with the following:









This means I could probably get away with an off the shelf 3khz/LR2 passive crossover from PE. My only real concern is that I'd like to have tweeter attenuation to adjust the output as needed. So, probably an L-pad will suffice here. 

2b) JL passives:
I've got a set of passive crossovers from JL Audio's 5.25" coaxial component speakers. I called JL tech and ultimately was provided the schematic for the crossovers. I was able to use those values and punch them in to PCD and found that it actually may work out. It's not specifically designed for the Kef speaker (obviously) but it happens to have pretty close component values that may just work. 


------

So, I have a few options to try out. As I said above, since this is a coaxial the crossover challenge is lessened. As long as the radiation pattern of each driver (tweeter and mid) is well matched (IOW, the polar pattern is good) then I'll be fine with just about any of my options; I won't have to seriously fret over it. 

The ultimate result hinges on the final tune. When the mid and tweeter are close it makes life easier. This is all tied to radiation patterns of speakers. If you choose crossover points that provide good polar response and you use a mid that isn't behaving poorly above beaming, life is made easier. Now, if I were running a tweeter in the sails and a mid in the door this would be an ENTIRELY different situation. 

This is why conventional out-of-the-box passive crossovers aren't recommended for any ol' speaker or install. It's just not a one size fits all situation; never really will be. Not only do you have to consider speaker safety (ie: crossing a tweeter too low) or nominal resistance (ie: 4 ohm vs 8 ohm), but you absolutely have to keep in mind beaming and response smoothness.



Not that any of the above is pressing. I'm moving next week. I won't be doing anything with my system for a while.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bertholomey said:


> Erin - I liked the statement about paying more attention on being a Dad - I can see how it would be hard to spend time away from your awesome daughter.


dude, she's so freaking awesome. kid's sharp as a dang tack. surprises me everyday with stuff she says... and how she's able to put things together. hopefully she gets scholarships because I can't afford Med School. 

rocking out in the car to Cameo with my little one to the stock system in my wife's Accord makes the goals of my audio system seem really miniscule.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> dude, she's so freaking awesome. kid's sharp as a dang tack. surprises me everyday with stuff she says... and how she's able to put things together. hopefully she gets scholarships because I can't afford Med School.
> 
> rocking out in the car to Cameo with my little one to the stock system in my wife's Accord makes the goals of my audio system seem really miniscule.


building a passive with notch filters and extra elements for slope, tweeter protection or phase linearity, is winter work, or, car audio is always there, like John Nash's game theory. It's up to you to decide if it's beautiful or not.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> rocking out in the car to Cameo with my little one to the stock system in my wife's Accord makes the goals of my audio system seem really miniscule.


Whenever I think about how fast my kids are growing up and how much its going to suck when they're grown and gone it has the same effect on me.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Non-audio update....

Well, we finally finished the house and moved in last weekend. We have a lot of stuff to unpack still and it'll probably be at least a month before I'm able to access my garage again thanks to all the remaining stuff from our downgrade in house size. But, at least we can sell it and put some money toward the HT room.


----------



## quality_sound

That's a DOWN grade? And am I seeing two single car garage and a two car garage?


----------



## robert_wrath

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, Congrats on the purchase & move, but that's a **** load a lawn to cover. BOL on the on going renovations to come.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice house, Erin!


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats on the finished move, Erin! I know the process of building is a beast by itself, but moving....sheesh, ya never know how much crap you've accumulated until you have to pack it up and move it. I know this is a relief to you and your families stress level, so once again, congrats. I can also relate when you speak on your family, as I know how big events (like a new house) and even day to day business can draw you in, and distract you from spending the proper time with little ones. My daughter is 10 now and I still can't believe it. I've been fortunate enough to allow my wife to stay at home and home school her for her first years of school. So I have spent more time with her than the average dad, but with the age she's reaching now, and the fact that when I agreed to home schooling I insisted on public school at 6th grade, that time is soon going to narrow. Yes you must enjoy them while you can, because one day you wont be cool enough to hang with anymore.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

you should have taken the first lot by the street, now somebody is going to build right in front of your house!

(J/K)


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> And am I seeing two single car garage and a two car garage?


Yea. My only requirements (aka: please, honey!?) were to have a bonus room upstairs and a 3rd car garage so I could make it a workshop.


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## quality_sound

I would kill for space to park 4 cars... Hell, is like the land too. My dog would LOVE that much room to roam. How much land is it?


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## ErinH

Oh... It's just a double and a single so only room for 3 cars. Lot of room in the driveway though. Lol. 

It's a touch over an acre.


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## quality_sound

Is it really? It looks at least twice that. Either way, I'd love to have that. I know this, I'm not retiring in CA. The one house I bought (for about 4 days) was 18XX square feet, on MAYBE 1/4 acre and was $292K.


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Is it really? It looks at least twice that. Either way, I'd love to have that. I know this, I'm not retiring in CA. The one house I bought (for about 4 days) was 18XX square feet, on MAYBE 1/4 acre and was $292K.


That must have been some time ago lol. My house is less than 16xx SQ feet on less than 7000 SQ ft. of land. I bought it for 7 figs almost 3 years ago and has gone up a little over $300k since...so a different planet over here .


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



papasin said:


> That must have been some time ago lol. My house is less than 16xx SQ feet on less than 7000 SQ ft. of land. I bought it for 7 figs almost 3 years ago and has gone up a little over $300k since...so a different planet over here .


wow

I built a house with 1400 square feet (2 story) for 56K 15 years ago, and I could probably do it today for 90K, but I'm only on about 12.5K square footage...


seven figures, that's the one where you have to put two comma's, right?


----------



## quality_sound

papasin said:


> That must have been some time ago lol. My house is less than 16xx SQ feet on less than 7000 SQ ft. of land. I bought it for 7 figs almost 3 years ago and has gone up a little over $300k since...so a different planet over here .


It was in 2006.


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> wow
> 
> I built a house with 1400 square feet (2 story) for 56K 15 years ago, and I could probably do it today for 90K, but I'm only on about 12.5K square footage...
> 
> 
> seven figures, that's the one where you have to put two comma's, right?





quality_sound said:


> It was in 2006.


Yeah, no typo. My neighbor just sold theirs earlier this year for $1.3M and is quite comparable to ours. At least in our immediate neigborhood, all the homes appraise in this price range...with all of them around 50 years old .

827 September Ct, Cupertino, CA 95014 - Zillow

Cupertino is a bit on the higher side within the SF Bay Area, but not by any means the highest. Also not all of CA is this high, but definitely tends to be higher and gives everyone a sticker shock. But unlike Paul, I'll probably retire here . Lived here pretty much all my life, where my parents bought their home in San Jose, less than 20 miles away for 1/10 of the price in the late 80s. 

Sorry to digress on your thread Erin. Big congrats to you and your family on you new home purchase.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If I could afford a 7 figure house, I wouldn't be driving a Civic, lol. (j/k)

I should have stayed in school. My first (and last house that I bought) was about 850 sq ft on an 80x125 lot was 72k. I bought that in 99. When I filed bankruptcy in '07, I walked away from it. It sold for $28,800.

Jay


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## quality_sound

papasin said:


> Yeah, no typo. My neighbor just sold theirs earlier this year for $1.3M and is quite comparable to ours. At least in our immediate neigborhood, all the homes appraise in this price range...with all of them around 50 years old .
> 
> 827 September Ct, Cupertino, CA 95014 - Zillow
> 
> Cupertino is a bit on the higher side within the SF Bay Area, but not by any means the highest. Also not all of CA is this high, but definitely tends to be higher and gives everyone a sticker shock. But unlike Paul, I'll probably retire here . Lived here pretty much all my life, where my parents bought their home in San Jose, less than 20 miles away for 1/10 of the price in the late 80s.
> 
> Sorry to digress on your thread Erin. Big congrats to you and your family on you new home purchase.


I did too. Moved into CA in January of 85 when I was 10 and only moved out when I was PCSd to Germany in 2009. The things that keep me from wanting to retire there are the silly ass taxes, the outrageous housing prices, and the CARB.


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> If I could afford a 7 figure house, I wouldn't be driving a Civic, lol. (j/k)


Some of us drive Civics do so because we want to not because we have to .

I've had this conversation with a fellow SQ enthusiast and competitor, but would not trade my car for a Ferarri and I am dead serious when I say that. I do have neighbors who do so though, along with Teslas and other exotics to go along with their Hondas .

On the flip side of the housing insanity, you won't find weather anywhere as good as this area and the job market tends to be pretty good in the tech sector which drives the prices...hence Silicon Valley for a reason. My grandparents live in MI and I worked in TX for a year...sorry guys, no comparison .


----------



## quality_sound

I prefer the weather in San Diego personally but it's hard to argue with the Bay Area.


----------



## papasin

quality_sound said:


> I prefer the weather in San Diego personally but it's hard to argue with the Bay Area.


No argument from me on SD. Got a job offer in La Jolla many many years ago and that area is to die for. Kids also love Legoland which is Carlsbad not too far from SD...so frequent that area. I'm sure Erin wouldn't mind the proximity to Disney too .

Anyway, back to Erin's build...


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I was totally kidding about not owning a Civic. I buy cars I like, because I like them...and because I can afford them. lol...

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

maybe my rant will help someone else like me feel normal....


first world problems...

I've started shopping for my HT. So, allow me to vent a bit. All of the below are intertwined.

Rant 1) 
I've learned through the years that no matter what I start off looking at, I end up at something 2x the price of what I set out to research. Then I have to remind myself that I don't need (whatever it is that drives the price up so high) and it's not a competition with someone I don't know on the internet. Maybe it's just the male in me that wants to have bigger, faster, stronger ... cooler stuff. I'm just happy I know that and am able to come back down to Earth. Even if that is after 2 hours of having my head up my tail looking at stuff I don't need... much less can afford. 

Rant 2) 
Kind of off #1 above but not entirely. I built the room upstairs to be an HT room. It's actually going to happen and I'm happy about that. I've been researching screens... always wanted to have a huge screen. Decided to get out the measuring tape after picking a projector and determining the best range and screen size for my room (factoring in furniture and speakers as well). A 120" screen won't work at all. It's WAY too big. A 106" screen is on the high end of rational. A 92" screen just seems like a waste of time.

Rant 3) 
I'm a tech-savvy dude as all of us here are. But, I swear to all that is holy, when I start shopping for HT gear ...










From number of channels on the amp, to the various kinds of Audyssey crap (don't even get me started on their apparent .2 via internal y-split crap), to external dsp add-ons, to screen size, to screen gain, to wall paint backsplash, to anamorphic, to panorama, to tensioned, to fixed, to motoroized, to wireless hdmi, to hdmi over cat5, to ir repeaters, to speaker size vs screen size, to ... O M G.

Most of this stuff is fine taken by itself or a couple at a time. It's not hard to understand. But when you have A-effing-D-D like me, it's a nightmare. Especially because no one thing stands alone. They all overlap and effect other aspects. I start looking for info on a projector and wind up with my socks on my head and a mirror duct taped to the wall trying to determine if the light off the ceiling at one point in the room is different than another in order to make sure I have enough power for the front left speaker. Wait... what?!  


So far, I've had to reel myself back in about 3 times and have had complete changes of direction no less than that. At this point, I'm back on track with a realistic freaking budget and a list of gear that makes sense. Looking like I'll be using an Epson 8350 (refurbished to save mulah), a Denon 2313ci+miniDSP balanced for additional subwoofer integration and possibly a 106" Monoprice fixed-wall screen (assuming further reviews I'm able to dig up are favorable; they have been pretty bad for the larger motorized screens). So, I'm done for the night.

Cheers!

- Erin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

PS: If you saw I had updated my thread and expected car audio updates... sorry to disappoint. I've got some things coming up but I don't know how much I'll continue with the build thread. At this point, it's better served as a catch all for life (and for others to openly hate on the California real estate market ).


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey just chill........you can't always nail it on the first try, bud. When venturing out of your comfort zone, relax, accept the fact that you will make mistakes, and enjoy the process.......no matter what you settle with, you shall learn down the road what you "should" or "wished" you would have done. Then you take steps to improve on what you have. Its too much stress always shooting for perfection out of the gate....... I know its hard, as most of us want perfect from our projects......and what kind of fun is that? Hobbies are nothing but a way to occupy our idle minds, I believe that you get more distraction from ongoing improvements anyways.........


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> (and for others to openly hate on the California real estate market ).


Sorry dude to clutter it up...really tried a few times to keep steering it back .

EDIT: and re: your rant, don't think so at all...completely understand. Fortunately or unfortunately for me I guess, I don't have the space


----------



## ErinH

papasin said:


> Sorry dude to clutter it up...really tried a few times to keep steering it back . Since you're ok with it,


No offense... But you're really bad at getting things back on track. 

How about we save the full blown California economic discussion for someone who lives in California. You haven't updated yours in a while... Lol.


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> No offense... But you're really bad at getting things back on track.
> 
> How about we save the full blown California economic discussion for someone who lives in California. You haven't updated yours in a while... Lol.


Point taken. Guys who want to dump on CA economics, feel free to do so on my thread . But as for my thread, I guess I should post a couple quick updates there. Nothing audio related I'm afraid, but at least ICE related . Will try to take some pics tonight.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin- Take it from someone who has built one- Don't waste your money on a screen. Build one. It's sooo much cheaper and they still look fantastic. Use the money you saved toward better audio.

Congrats, the house looks great. The only thing "different" I may have done is do a standard 2 car garage on the house and then a detached 2 car. I love working on projects at all hours and having one separate allows me to go unnoticed (not waking up the family, or the neighbors) with the doors closed. I have no clue what kind of extra expense that may have been though.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Erin- Take it from someone who has built one- Don't waste your money on a screen. Build one. It's sooo much cheaper and they still look fantastic. Use the money you saved toward better audio.


I've not written that off yet. When I last researched this stuff that was the way I was going to go. Still have some more reading to do. 




captainobvious said:


> Congrats, the house looks great. The only thing "different" I may have done is do a standard 2 car garage on the house and then a detached 2 car. I love working on projects at all hours and having one separate allows me to go unnoticed (not waking up the family, or the neighbors) with the doors closed. I have no clue what kind of extra expense that may have been though.


Well, yea... in an ideal world I would have had a lot more things. But those things cost money. If not, I wouldn't be sweating what HT gear to buy. 

I don't know the exact price to build a detached but I do have a ballpark figure since my neighbor across the street just built one. It ain't cheap.


----------



## MacLeod

On home theater, I've settled on 2.1 instead. Yeah it was cool having all the little noises and stuff going on behind me but at the end of the day, it wasn't really that much information coming from them. After me and the wife got over out initial "oh cool, you could hear the phone ring behind us" thing, I wasn't that impressed with it or its expense or the extra wires. I finally settled on just getting as good a receiver as I could afford, a good pair of floor standing speakers and a good sub. So much easier and it sounds just as good, there are no wires to worry about and I haven't noticed a lack of any surround noises. 

I don't use center channel speakers either because unless you're sitting way off to the side, the center image is pretty good. Every blue moon when a buddy comes over to watch, he'll be off to the side but since he's not contributing to my HT budget, I'm not going to spend a couple hundred bucks on a center channel for him.


----------



## Beckerson1

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I can completely understand your frustration. I'm just getting into designing my HT. I mean I'm YEARS way from construction. It's a whole other beast.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Kelly Klosure | Home
"portable" steel buildings are a inexpensive way around a lot of issues. a neighbor used these guys for a "portable shed" that is 20x 24 with a 15 ft roof with over head storage. its a nice set up, just cold in the winter without the kerosene jet heater..


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## ErinH

quietfly said:


> Kelly Klosure | Home
> "portable" steel buildings are a inexpensive way around a lot of issues. a neighbor used these guys for a "portable shed" that is 20x 24 with a 15 ft roof with over head storage. its a nice set up, just cold in the winter without the kerosene jet heater..


There ya go, cap'n. 

Personally I have absolutely no desire for that kind of extra space. And one of those wouldn't work for me unless I bricked it due to the HOA (which is one aspect I'm happy about). 

I built a little somethin' somethin' for storage off my fence line where I put all the yard tools and mower stuff. That helps keep the crap out of the garage.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

House looks nice and gj getting that shop space figured into the build. One thing most all great builders have in common, a shop, even though not all shop owners build great things. I just built myself a shop and at 30 x 20 x 10 it's not big enough.

HTS has great build logs and ideas. Should be able to stud up a wall to frame a screen and a place to put speakers next to it. If you need any help I wouldn't mind lending a hand.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I've not written that off yet. When I last researched this stuff that was the way I was going to go. Still have some more reading to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yea... in an ideal world I would have had a lot more things. But those things cost money. If not, I wouldn't be sweating what HT gear to buy.
> 
> I don't know the exact price to build a detached but I do have a ballpark figure since my neighbor across the street just built one. It ain't cheap.


Yea I figured. Either way, you've got plenty of garage space so that's awesome!

There's a specific Behr paint sold at HD that I used on my screen when I built it. I even framed it out with molding too. It looked reaaaally good. Got alot of compliments on it. With that home built screen and the Epson 1080p projector I was using, I had no problems watching stuff with the lights on or during the daytime. Looked great and bright still.


----------



## myhikingboots

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I don't know if this helps, but here goes. I just finished watching "Moneyball" for the second time and was blown away by the story again. If you don't know the story it's about how a base ball team, the Oakland A's, with about a 1/4 the budget of the Yankees could compete with and still win as many games. 

My HT is modest to say the least, but it still gives me hours of enjoyment, and ROCKS at a fraction of the price of what most retailers would have you spend. My monitor is not 3D or Smart but delivers a very crisp picture. My left and right fronts are two massive Infinity Monitors that I bought in the 80's that still sound great, and my center channel is about 10 years old that I bought when Circuit City bit the dust. My amp is a new Denon that is only 5.1 and has very few bells and whistles but still provides plenty of power where it counts and gives me enough tinkering to adjust the sound to my tastes. Just added a very modest 12" sub and it really rattles the windows. 

Okay you get the point. Just my 2 cents.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

moving my HT talk over to here...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-home-pro-audio/152036-erins-ht-room-real-time.html


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

random post...

When I drive, my natural position is for my left arm to rest on the door panel and my right arm to rest on the console. I use a remote to skip tracks/volume while driving so I typically keep the remote in my right hand. Steering wheel controls or anything else is just an awkward postion *for me*, so the remote in hand is my comfort zone. For a while I've wanted to integrate some sort of remote in to the console but the problem is the console topper is pretty short; there's not enough room to put a remote there. So I kept kicking the can down the road. 

With SQ finals being only 30 minutes away this year, I wanted to try to compete in IASCA finals. A portion of their rulebook is dedicated to ergonomics. This actually goes in tandem with my own usage so adhering to these rules was actually an evolutionary step for me. It just provided the motivation needed to make it happen. Implicitly, safety is a factor. IOW, I can't just strap velcro to a remote and call it a day. I needed to figure out a way to control basic functions (as required per the rules along with common sense usage) with a remote or some other method.

So, I have two problems to overcome: the ergonomic aspect and the remote control aspect.

The issue with standard remote is the IR transmitter isn't in LOS with the headunit. So, I either needed to wire in some buttons (no) or extend the IR (meh). I dug around a bit during break at work and found Alpine has some marine remote options that use RF. A friend of mine had one so he sent it to me to test out. 2 wires (switched 12v & ground) along with the stereo-looking jack in to the deck and I was god to go on the bench. It works pretty well. A bit stubborn as it's not as sensitive as my standard alpine remote but it does the trick and works from just about anywhere outside of the car. I tested it up to 15 ft away and the buttons functioned as they should. Cool! 

So now the next step was to incorporate the remote in to the car. Given I don't have a lot of time I didn't want dedicate much to the task. Initially, I wanted to bondo up a new console topper just like the OEM one but it was going to take me too long to do that the right way. So, I cheated and went with a piece of MDF and some foam. 

I used a 1/4" thick MDF and cut it to be about 5 inches longer than the OEM console topper. I attached the remote's base (which the remote can slide in and out of) via a screw to the mdf. I used some memory foam to cover the mdf and then wrapped it all in black carpet. I didn't like that. So I then re-wrapped it in the headliner material I use on my pillars. Afterward, I painted the remote itself to match the console piece; it's not an exact match but it's the closest I could find off the shelf at the auto parts store and I think it looks pretty good. 

All in all, the project took me about 1.5 hours. A half-hour was wasted on the black carpeting that was scrapped. Everything functions well. The remote is solidly in place but can be removed with some effort to control the headunit from outside of the car (ie; when I tune via RTA) and there are no LOS issues since it's RF. The overall look and feel is very nice. It could be better but with the short amount of time I had, I'm satisfied. And it definitely fulfills the ergonomic requirement. My arm can rest on the whole console and control the headunit easily with comfort.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Some pictures

OEM console with my hand in a tough position and still hanging off




















Marine RF remote:











New console topper build:


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It's probably worth mentioning for those that are not familiar with IASCA, but I believe the ergonomics rules are such that the remote must be secure to the vehicle. i.e. no 'floating' remotes, which is pretty much what ever HU that has a remote comes with.


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## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks good Erin, but tell us........did that pair of dial calipers really get used.......or is it just an added photo prop?.........lol

Old skool baby!


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I used em. Had to. Center up the cup I used to make the rounded front. Lol


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Awesome.......I still gotta pair of them in my tool box........but haven't done anything since I got the dummy set......


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Real nice! 

Does the remote come with an RF receiver/adaptor that plugs in the HU's steering wheel remote plug?


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yep. 2 wires and that plug is all that's needed.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



pocket5s said:


> It's probably worth mentioning for those that are not familiar with IASCA, but I believe the ergonomics rules are such that the remote must be secure to the vehicle. i.e. no 'floating' remotes, which is pretty much what ever HU that has a remote comes with.


yep. though it isn't explicitly stated, it's certainly implied. that's one thing I like about this remote. the base is screwed down and the remote itself can be removed from the base, allowing me to roam free with it. 

the more I drive the car, the more I get used to the new console piece. it's really quite comforatable. I dig it. 


I've got a few other things on my plate left to complete before finals and then I gotta start trying to work out any kinks in the tune. definitely going to be interesting to see how IASCA is, since this will be my first go at that. 

if anyone sees this thread and plans to be at finals, stop by and I'll let you have a demo (as long as I'm not about to be judged or someone next to me isn't being judged).


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



claydo said:


> Awesome.......I still gotta pair of them in my tool box........but haven't done anything since I got the dummy set......


I've had these for about 8 years now, give or take. Bought them when I was in college taking a CAD class so I could measure the parts I was drawing. They've come in handy quite a few times. One of the few items that made it on my 'stuff that gets used a lot' pegboard by my workbench. lol.


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## spyders03

Console looks great man, glad it came out! And thanks again fir all your help, you are a miracle worker

Swyped while swerving


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## Tsmith

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, the console looks great. Can't wait to hear your tune at finals.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

thanks, guys. 

Tim, I look forward to hearing yours as well. You posted a good score at TN state finals.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, the tan carpet I had was getting worn and I needed a change. I picked up some black speaker enclosure carpet locally along with some black floormats and made the switch to a black floor. I was unsure how well it'd turn out, but I like it much more than the tan floor.


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## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

man, look at you getting all serious for finals!!!
I like it!


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## Fantaxp7

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

How are the JL 13tw5's working out? I don't think I've seen mention of them in later posts.

Thanks


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> man, look at you getting all serious for finals!!!
> I like it!


I know, right? lol. 
I'm very happy with the way the car has been sounding lately. We'll see how it pans out at finals but either way, I'm happy with it right now. 



Fantaxp7 said:


> How are the JL 13tw5's working out? I don't think I've seen mention of them in later posts.
> 
> Thanks


I actually changed out the 13tw5's to a set of AE IB15's again. This time, however, I went with the HT version. The Qtc of them is about 0.75; about as close to the critically damped ratio people strive for. And they're no slouch. The reason I went with those is because I just simply wanted more low end output for my rocker side. I had one goal: to enable the car to get loud and it does it now without breaking a sweat. Not Steve Cook SPL loud, but plenty loud for the kid next to me at the red light who lost his showoff privileges to my Earth Wind & Fire track the other night. (truestorybro)


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## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

all this work---please dont roll into finals with Steelies on again.....


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> all this work---please dont roll into finals with Steelies on again.....


Lol

I bought some nice alloy wheels earlier this year. A step in the right direction.


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## spyders03

Carpet looks great man, definitely a step up. Glad you got it put back together, now you just need to finish up my wiring 

Swyped while swerving


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'd need a whole lot more time to clean up your wiring than I needed to do this carpet. lol.


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## spyders03

Haha, for real. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good work man. You could always make it fancier with trim work or whatever but for functional it's about as close to hand as possible. I notice it doesn't have any raised markings on the remote buttons, but with only 4 main buttons it should not be hard to "finger" out which is which.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's a good idea. I may try to work on that after finals, before my GTG.


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## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Car looks good with black carpet, and nice job on the armrest control! So you're liking the ht aeib's better than the car audio version?


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yes. They seem to work better for me than the car version I had. I have a SBP15 but had already tuned the car with the IB15's before it came in and I didn't want to do a swap before finals.


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## fast4door

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

awesome thread thank you for sharing with us. I have learned a lot and enjoy reading it.


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## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Curious to know what E,W & F song you rocked to own that kid...lol


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Let's Groove Tonight


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## sqnut

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Love EWF. You should have grabbed your phone and taken his mug shot when he got swamped. Must have been priceless, a kodak moment for sure.

Looks really good, wish I could hear it. Good luck at finals.


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## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks really good Erin. Good Luck at Finals!!!


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## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

n i c e remote work there.
Looking forward to trying that out.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

thanks for the good luck wishes, fellas. irregardless of how I place, I'm really happy with the progress I've made on the tune lately. I'm just looking forward to hanging out with some buds. Rumor has it there will be a Team JL meet at my house Friday morning/afternoon. (I'll be sure to snap a couple photos) 


Kevin, you got it, dude. And I'm looking forward to jumping in your car for a few as well and listening to the progress you've made the past couple weeks. :thumbsup:


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## ErinH

some more randomness...

Since IASCA states a reference for how they judge tonality, I figured I'd go that route directly. I ordered the German Maestro 8.35D Monitor headphones. These have plenty of power off my ipod/iphone but also can hook up to my denon receiver in my garage. I was really surprised at these headphones. They really do everything very well. I've not listened to numerous headphones but I have listened to a fair share (including some custom molded ety's that I use for travel). These headphones are the best value I've put my hands on yet. At $250, they're not cheap but in the 'audiophile' world of headphones, they're a bargain. Tonality of them is extremely close to that of my own personal tune but still gave me some specific areas to focus on in my car. I'm not sure I'll hang on to them after Finals simply because I don't want to have a lot of money wrapped up in something I only use a few times a year, but it's not going to be easy to part with them. 













Secondly, I've been running the Helix DSP for the past month and half. I'm very happy with this DSP. It just _works_. No gimmicks, no noise, nothing funky. Install, connect, tune, listen. That's it. I like that a lot, after going through quite a number of DSPs over the years that never quite hit the mark for me. 

Steve @ Syracuse Customs helped me obtain the remote shown below and I just got it in today. I'd like to wire it up before Finals but with the other things I want to get done (one being to clean up my garage for Friday), I'm not sure I'll be able to. What I'll do, if time permits, is set up the controller to defeat the DSP for demo purposes. Maybe a newcomer to the hobby will want to see the before/after of a no tune vs tuned setup; this would be a good way to introduce them to our side of the hobby.


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## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So now that the competiton season is over, here is where things fell for me...

The car started off strong in MECA. Some gear was causing me issues and I did a change recently (a month or so ago) to alleviate that. Overall, however, I wound up coming in 6th place in Extreme. In complete honesty, I'm not even bummed. The class was _stacked _and there were things my car just didn't do as well as the others by the MECA rules. It is what it is. All in all, though, I am more satisfied with my car tonally and dynamically than I have ever been. When I started the season my goal wasn't necessarily to win a trophy as much as it was to get the car to do things it's not been able to do to the degree I want it to do. That was namely to have a good smooth sound, get stupid loud, and be dynamic. I accomplished all the goals I set out for. And gear wise, I've pretty much tapped out what I can. Install wise, the only way to better the car is to gut the dash; it seems pretty telling that in my class all the cars ahead of me had no OEM dash. That said, I think I performed well even given that as the distance between me and 2nd was about 3 points. So, the real area of benefit is some further tweaking... a simple cut here or a click of time alignment there. At this point, the largest alteration I have in EQ on my mids or tweeters is a 2dB cut. The EQ is pretty well flat above 400hz which tells me the speaker choice was solid and the crossover points I landed on worked. 

On the IASCA side of the house, this was my first pony show there. Never had competed in that class, but in hindsight, it almost seems like I spent more of my efforts preparing for that class than I did MECA. I purchased the German Maestro headphones as a reference for tonality (which wasn't too far off from where I was before) and built the console for ergonomic points. Ultimately, I wound up tuning for a livelier setup and looking back through the IASCA rulebook, knowing what I know about MECA, I really think I unintentionally focused my tune toward IASCA. I signed up a few weeks ago for INAC and was against 23 people in my class. I truthfully didn't expect to place in the top 10. So, paint me surprised that I managed to walk away with 3rd place. You can ask anyone there, I was truly humbled and surprised by that. It was really cool to place in the top 3 my first time in an org's finals (which I somehow managed to do in MECA in 2010, lol). 

Overall, I had great feedback from people who demoed the car. I think the best compliment I got, as ironic as it is, was "I didn't really expect it to be this good." My midbass to subass is honestly the best it's ever been and I went against convention of using low crossover points there (I can explain my ratinale if anyone cares). I have the sub and midbass crossover at 70hz/24dB. The sub is out on the dash and the impact is right there with it. And those aren't my words... I honestly didn't feel that it was doing as well as the feedback I received indicated. But I'll take compliments whenver I can get them, lol. Tonally, I really like my car. Nothing stands out. It just blends. The one area I want to work on, after listening to Todd's car, is focus. His GTI is super-duper focused. What that does isn't just bringing attention to the sounds (ie; cymbal crash, voice, etc) but since everything is SO well defined, it adds more to the illusion of space. So, I will spend some time this winter working towards that and likely won't touch anything tonally wise unless the increased focus necessitates it. I know there are a couple things I should go back and listen for but at this point, I need a break from all the music I heard over the weekend. Anyway, all in all, I'm the happiest with my system I have ever been. I have zero desire to change any gear, sans the RF remote because it's just not as responsive as I'd like it to be. I just want to enjoy it. I have a GTG coming up in a few weeks so anyone coming to that will get to hear what I took to finals with me. 

Thanks for all the feedback and well wishes throughout the year, fellas. This weekend and talking with some of you in peson has really reinvorgarated my love for the hobby. 


BTW, here's some pictures I took at finals:
http://medleysmusings.com/2013-car-audio-championships-in-huntsville-al-pictures/


And here's my parting shot of my IASCA trophy. I'm most proud of this over any other trophy I've managed to scrape together.


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## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You've come along way Erin, hey look something shiny. Thanks again for all your help to the team and the diy audio community as a whole. Squirrel. over there is a gas station and a building that i forget what they do there.
You are a real asset, a good friend and teammate. Thanks again for your , btw dont forget to pick up your plastic bin you brought food to the VBC, hospitality this past weekend. great hanging out with you


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You should be proud. That is one deep class and full of competitors who have been in that class for some time, so to come out for your first iasca finals and take 3rd is really saying something.


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## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

pfff, sub on the dash, who needs that  - Great Job Erin, thanks for the Demo, sharing your music and showing me that feature I didn't know existed
.


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## Tnutt19

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey Erin really enjoyed the thread, just read through it all.
Having had 5s in the pillars in my last install I can appreciate how well you guys did with those, they are non intrusive at all!! Very impressed! Also love the new house!

Quick questions, You had mentioned getting into more about your rear fill, do you mind if I ask what your plans were with it.
I am going to be using rear fill for the first time in a very long time along with a center and they are two elements that are going to be challenging I feel to implement right. 

Congrats on a 3rd place win too! Considering how busy you have been with aside from car audio, that is very impressive!


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## Tsmith

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, I agree with others here you should be proud of what you accomplished. I will have to say your car sounded the best I have heard it at finals. You could definitely tell you put some time in on your tune. It sounded smoother in all aspects than the previous times that I heard it. You are right about your midbass to sub blending, it is very nice. Great job and I personally love the way your car sounds.


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## evli one

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Well, the tan carpet I had was getting worn and I needed a change. I picked up some black speaker enclosure carpet locally along with some black floormats and made the switch to a black floor. I was unsure how well it'd turn out, but I like it much more than the tan floor.


Which dashboard cover is that?


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## decibelle

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I love these post-Finals soul-searching blurbs. 

Erin, the changes your Civic has undergone the past year are quite inspiring. I might end up following suit and jumping ship to extreme next season too. If I could get my car to sound like yours by next year, I'd feel like I accomplished something. Hope I can see you again at the GTG soon.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> You've come along way Erin, hey look something shiny. Thanks again for all your help to the team and the diy audio community as a whole. Squirrel. over there is a gas station and a building that i forget what they do there.
> You are a real asset, a good friend and teammate. Thanks again for your , btw dont forget to pick up your plastic bin you brought food to the VBC, hospitality this past weekend. great hanging out with you


Mi... SQUIRREL!!!!

Mic, thanks for the words, man. I really appreciate that coming from you. Across the street is a books a million and a toys r us used to be there, too. And a home depot if you want... SQUIRREL... if you want some window tint. 






pocket5s said:


> You should be proud. That is one deep class and full of competitors who have been in that class for some time, so to come out for your first iasca finals and take 3rd is really saying something.





Tsmith said:


> Erin, I agree with others here you should be proud of what you accomplished. I will have to say your car sounded the best I have heard it at finals. You could definitely tell you put some time in on your tune. It sounded smoother in all aspects than the previous times that I heard it. You are right about your midbass to sub blending, it is very nice. Great job and I personally love the way your car sounds.


Thanks, Robert and Tim. I am proud of my placing in IASCA. I was 100% shocked. The coolest part to me was getting the opportunity to stand on the stage next to the guy who really kicked this hobby off for me (Kirk). And to hear Steve Cook yell "Team 'Bama" when we got called up was icing on the cake. LOL. It really made my weekend.



evli one said:


> Which dashboard cover is that?


Custom Dash Covers, Custom Dashboard Covers, Dashcovers, Car, Trucks, SUVS, Van

The DashTex version, iirc.





millerlyte said:


> I love these post-Finals soul-searching blurbs.
> 
> Erin, the changes your Civic has undergone the past year are quite inspiring. I might end up following suit and jumping ship to extreme next season too. If I could get my car to sound like yours by next year, I'd feel like I accomplished something. Hope I can see you again at the GTG soon.


Thanks, Ally. You've managed to do pretty well yousrelf. 

Come on over to Extreme. I can't guaranteee I'll be competing again next year but if they have Finals like this again at the VBCC I think it's a solid possibility. 

Hope to see you at the GTG. Tell the boss you threw up and you're sick. Then cut out early and head up to the meet.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AVIDEDTR said:


> pfff, sub on the dash, who needs that  - Great Job Erin, thanks for the Demo, sharing your music and showing me that feature I didn't know existed
> .


I think the most fun I had all weekend was giving demos to people and getting to hear different (new to me) music. And playing some dubstep for you. I got out with my adrenaline pumping. Chad asked me if I was ready to fight someone. And I think I made some of the HAT guys standing outside the car nearly crap their pants with that track, judging by how fast they turned their heads around. I'm just glad no one was being judged so I had a chance to show out a bit. LOL.

Good times. And I'm looking forward to hearing your results with further tuning.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Christmas is coming up in less than 2 months and I've gotta get some lights hung for my light show. So, I'm starting early this year...











the new house's roof pitch is quite a bit steeper than it was at the last one, so I'm still trying to decide if I want to rent one of these to line the roof edges. I'm not afraid of heights... unless I'm right at the edge looking at a 30ft drop. I don't know how roofers do it. *shrugs*


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## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I hear ya on the heights thing......they don't bug me, as long as I feel secure.....but on my 12×12 roof pitch I feel nowhere near secure.......I rented something similar a couple years back for my rooftop antenna install!


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

exactly, man. this roof is stupid steep. not like the last house where I could ascend on the back porch and work my way up. 

the real motives for my upcoming GTG are coming to light... anyone who attends will be helping me decorate! lol.


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What really made me feel like a puss though, one summer I had some tornado (yikes) damage.....ripped off about 10 ft of ridge cap, and a 6ft patch of shingles. Contractor came out with this Mexican fellow, who proceeded to scoot all over my roof riding a couch cushion......so yea, mad respect to those Roofers!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

... back on the car audio train, I started out this project with the intentions of discussing the various aspects of the build. I think I covered most of it, but also realize I left some things out. I'll try to cover those things over the next few posts. 

First up, I switched over to the Helix DSP. It works flawlessly and has a small footprint. The feature I like most about it is the ability to control the subwoofer's phase in 15 degree increments. This makes aligning the sub to the midbass a bit easier (well, really, a lot easier). You can download the software here and toy around with it in demo mode. 











Another thing I did was switch back to an IB setup. The JL 13tw5's were great but they simply wouldn't dig as low with authority like I had before with dual IB15's. Of course, they are shallow subwoofers and smaller in diameter... so it's to be expected. I had planned to go with an AE SBP-15. Since I was in a hurry for sound, I grabbed a set of the AE IB15HT subs. These are made for home audio use and not thought to work well for car audio because of their higher Qts values. 

When I did some testing, what I found was the pair has a Qts of about 0.78 and a Vas indicating a lot of airspace needed. I didn't think they'd work in the car so I swept them both outside the car (free air) and then inside. Results below show free air and in car response. As you can see the difference is negligible. The in car qtc measures almost exactly 0.70. Pretty nice. And they just flat out work in my car. I didn't expect it, but I was pleasantly surprised. 











Here they are installed. Nothing fancy. Just a solid baffle wall.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In keeping up with my theme of full disclosure, let's talk about the DSP settings I used to get me to where I am. Back when I started this build one of my goals was to build a system that had great sound power response, which would minmize the need to EQ the crap out of the system between left and right. The less you have to do this, the less you narrow the sweet spot. The goal was to broaden the sense of envelopment and if I were to have to cut L/R vastly differently then I'd cut down on the sense of space because you'd have such a small listening area and the rest would just be mass chaos. At least, that's my theory. 

In addition, I was trying to keep from introducing numerous phase shifts across the system response with wildly varying EQ cuts/boosts. I don't believe in snake oil, but the reason was rooted in simplicity. If there isn't a need to vastly alter the system response response via EQ that means you're probably doing something more right than wrong. That's all there is to it. No snake oil or voodoo. Just a goal of keeping it minimal. Really, that's what a good speaker should allow you to do. 

Below are screenshots of my settings for each channel. You'll notice that the tweeter channels have very minimal EQ work. I attribute this to the waveguide-type design and the ring radiator tip used on the tweeter. Additionally, the overall sound power of this Kef coincident driver has gotten a lot of positive feedback. Raw, it's a remarkable drive unit and really doesn't need EQ other than to help calm the environmental effects. The mids have mostly shaping cuts but I do have a little rise in response due to the location of the left side that requires a touch more EQ. At most I have 3dB attenuation. Mostly it's a single dB cut here or there on the mids, though. This is easily the least EQ'd system response I've had to use and the overall tonality is much more to my liking than any system I've had to date. Not to say it couldn't use improvement here or there, but simply put, my goal was to have a system that didn't _NEED _a ton of EQ and I achieved that above 300hz. 


Below 300hz is simply the belly of the beast. It's the modal region of the car and you either use EQ or you deal with nasties. The larger cuts are narrow Q (ie; Q > 10) cuts for modal issues. Still, I tried to keep from going crazy with the EQ and dragging my system down with my own inability to keep from futzing with stuff just for the sake of it.  

*Left Tweeter:











Right Tweeter:











Left Midrange:











Right Midrange:*












*Left Midbass:











Right Midbass:











Subwoofer:
*


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Man, that really ISN'T much EQ. That's awesome, Erin. It definitely speaks to to how good your basic install is. Kudos, brother.


----------



## edouble101

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Man, that really ISN'T much EQ. That's awesome, Erin. It definitely speaks to to how good your basic install is. Kudos, brother.


I was thinking the exact same thing


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It is cool to know that I didn't have to go in and start hacking away at the response to get it where I like it. And, of course, anyone can say they don't use any EQ but I think the real fruits of the work have been vetted by people who have heard it. Yes, I didn't place 1st in my class at finals, but the system response is no slouch (I did manage to pull down 3rd place in a heavily stacked INAC class my first year out, though). It can use work, of course, but I think it's head and shoulders above where it's been in the past, regardless of any competition. And, I'm a pretty humble dude so it's not really easy for me to pat myself (really, the engineering of the drive unit) on the back, if that's how you want to view it. I'm really just trying to relay everything I did that went in to this install and where it got me at the end of the year. Hopefully it's not misconstrued as boasting, because that's not the intent. I'm just trying to share and be open about what I've been doing. 

Now that that's out of the way...


If you look, you can also see I have different crossover points on the left side vs right side tweeter/midrange. Since the left mid falls off faster than the right mid does due to the aiming, I crossed the right mid and tweeter to match up with the left side response which saved me some EQ headaches as well. 

The left midrange is low passed at 3000hz/24dB.
The right midrange is low passed at 2673hz/24dB.
The left tweeter is high passed at 3726hz/24dB.
The right tweeter is high passed at 4000hz/24dB.


When I measure the in car response without EQ, the two sides line up pretty well based on these crosover points alone. Took me a bit of time fiddling with it by ear and RTA to find the best points and slopes; the exact numbers are more swags in the 10hz increment than they are necessity, though. I've tried shallow slopes (12dB) and while it worked well, it didn't really do anything other than cause issues outside of the nominal passband of every driver. In a reflective environment, I think shallow slopes do more harm than good. Even the design engineer at Kef who lead the design of the driver I use told me they'd prefer to use a higher order crossover slope but the additional parts cost prevent that. He was the one who motivated me to stay away from "textbook" crossover points, which pushed me in to playing with Passive Crossover Design software (PCD) a bit and determining crossover points and slopes to toy with before zeroing in on where I'm at now. The benefit of the higher slope, besides having to worry about out of band response as much, is the additional SPL you can achieve without additional distortion. 

Additionally, the horn loaded nature of the tweeters in their coincident state creates a rising response in all axes. You can see this in the picture below. This rise actually guides me in to crossing the tweeters over higher electronically than I would a standard 1" tweeter. At the end of the day, this means my system is able to get pretty loud without audible distortion.... obviously there's a point at which it becomes an issue but that point is considerably higher than it's ever been in any of my previous builds.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

One thing you guys may also notice is the rather high crossover point of the sub/midbass. This bucks the trend of crossing low for a few reasons which I’ll try to explain as best I can.

It's been more common to run the midbass as low as possible so that the illusion of up front bass is more precedent with subs in the rear of the car. The obvious tradeoff here is the inability to get loud(er) without sacrificing the mechanical ability of the front woofers; especially the smaller ones. That's why there's also been a push to put larger drivers up front. A lot of people are using 8's or larger if possible, in their doors or kicks. Myself included. 

However, nearly every car that I've demoed using large drivers up front tend to have their own issues. One that is hardly ever discussed on the forum is tactile energy at the seat itself; wrecking the illusion of a solid front stage. 

This has been discussed numerous times on this forum but I’ve got a different take on it entirely (at least that I’ve seen), so bear with me a bit and maybe this will help you, too. 

Let me diverge briefly and say there are two types of energy at the seat; acoustical and mechanical. They can both share similar characteristics. Each have their own ways of being repaired or dealt with. Nearly every discussion involving tactile feedback in the seat centers on the notion that it is a product of mechanical coupling to the car. Hey… just build your kicks better or isolate the seat, right? Not necessarily. Especially if it’s an acoustic issue. And that’s the key; at least in my car. What I’ve found is the tactile feedback I was getting was due to an acoustic null at the seat which makes itself noticeable as an out-of-phase characteristic such as vibration at the seat. If you need an example of what I mean, simply go to your car and flip the polarity of one midbass. If you've ever tuned your own car even once you've surely flipped the polarity of the midbass as a phase check. What you undoubtedly noticed is the lower frequency sounds pulled directly to the driver locations (doors, floors, whatever). The higher the frequency, the less noticeable an out of phase characteristic like this is (less; not entirely unnoticeable). The lower the frequency, the more noticeable this is. Where there’s a lack of cohesion, you have a null in response and this null is made apparent through vibration in sound or material. If you have tactile feedback at your seat, this acoustical null can very well be the reason why.

When I demo cars and have a chance to work the DSP some, typically what I find is is excitement at the seat is due to some sort of out of phase issue at a given frequency as opposed to a broad band spectrum. The issue is it will detract from the front stage. The sound field will be on the dash but when you have that excitement, it tends to pull (no pun intended) your mind to your seat and it breaks that feeling of having a solid front stage. EQ'ing this out doesn't really do much; it just softens the issue. In my car, this occurs at about 52hz, which was determined via some RTA measurements and walking through tones. Same for the other vehicles I’ve gotten to sit in. This doesn’t just occur in a car; it also occurs at a home. And I’m willing to bet there’s some good studies related to it and room modes.

Now think about it... if my front mounted midbasses cause me an issue at 52hz, does it behoove me to cross them down that low? Nope. What do I do? Cross higher. Won’t that wreck the front stage? It can. How do I mitigate that? Treating panels with foam where needed (ie; mechanical vibration in the trunk lid, etc). Additionally, I use time alignment or phase control to help me better align my sub to my midbass. Again, there’s a null in my car at 52hz so even though I could use T/A and phase control for my midbass to sub, I don’t have that kind of direct control over the midbasses because I simply don’t have the DSP to fix that. Furthermore, if I can get away with crossing higher and blending it well, why not? It nets me higher SPL. So, I’ve avoided the 52hz null that causes tactile feedback at the seat and I’ve managed to get good sub to midbass transition for the illusion of up front bass with the ability to play it louder since the midbasses aren’t asked to play so low. Win, win. 

The way I chose my crossover points for my midbass/sub was actually pretty simple. If you look back to some earlier posts in this thread you’ll see I discussed and provided measurements on my car’s involvement. What I found what that cabin gain in my car kicks of right around the 70hz mark. My thought was pretty simple here. Make this the point where I cross the system over. The idea isn’t bulletproof but it hangs on the notion that if I have two separate sets of drivers before and after this point, then I’m not trying to fight cabin gain to blend the response. Ie; I’m not crossing my midbass over at 50hz and trying to smooth them within themselves to make a nice transition where cabin gain picks up. By crossing at the point where cabin gain takes over, it makes it easier on me to blend the sub/midbass. That was the idea and I found it actually worked well. The steep slopes helped make the out of band response less of an issue, but I did also use a couple EQ bands outside the passband as needed to help reinforce the upfront bass illusion. 

So, it's not always the case that large, low crossed midbasses = up front bass. On the contrary, you may be doing yourself more harm than good and just not be aware of it. The lesson I’ve learned this year is that you’re going to have acoustic nulls. Find it. Then determine how you can avoid them or deal with them. Without doing so, you’re going to have some band(s) that pull(s) to the seat or to the subs or the midbass (IOW, it’s not going to be up front) and that will detract from the stage illusion, EVEN IF you have all drivers mounted up front. Additionally, determine your cabin gain (see earlier posts in this thread) and see if you can use that to help you rather than hurt you. Don’t make the general assumption that low crossed woofers is a one-size fits all solution. Everything has it’s tradeoffs. And there are different ways to skin the cat.

YMMV, but the above helped me to get what I know is the best blending of mid to sub with the added benefit of being able to get loud.

Hopefully this made sense. It's somewhat of a catch all rambling in lessons learned.


----------



## ultimatemj

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> The left midrange is low passed at 3000hz/24dB.
> The right midrange is low passed at 2673hz/24dB.
> The left tweeter is high passed at 3726hz/24dB.
> The right tweeter is high passed at 4000hz/24dB.


Hi Erin, 

With the gaps in x-over points, it looks like the right side would have around an 8db dip at ~3300hz.

View attachment 49187


I'm curious, since that is more than any of the EQ adjustments you show, did you have measurement observations that lead you to using the gaps in the x-over points? Or?

Thanks for sharing!
M.J.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I took in car measurements of the two sides with the goal of matching the response in a head window via the RTA with about 60-something averages per side. The let side response dips down earlier because I have it a bit off axis. Since I can't boost it without causing issues (trying to make the driver strain to do something it shouldn't be doing), I crossed the right side at points that best met this. Also, keep in mind what I said about the horn loaded nature of the tweeter. It starts to rise around 5-6khz. So, crossing higher actually blends a flatter response at the targeted acoustical crossover point of about 3khz. All said and done, the blending of the two sides is nearly identical in response and very smooth. 

Edit: the reason you see such a drop in response between what I am using and your modeled response is because you're not using my driver data for your graph. It looks like you're using some generic FR plots. You can draw up sketches like that, but you really should use the response from the driver you're modeling; otherwise it's just a swag. For one reason, the tweeter response is a big deal here. In my PCD models, I actually found a 5khz tweeter crossover to work very well, for a flat response target. But for a sloping target, a couple dB's off the tweeter and a ~4khz crossover worked well.

Here's the results for the drivers:
http://medleysmusings.com/kef-r300-midrange-drive-unit-testing/


If you want to model them, send me an email and I can provide you with the raw data for PCD purposes.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and time alignment? Dash, with floor, with rear subs.


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## ultimatemj

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

My pic is not actuals, just used some published charts with lines drawn for the 24db roll-offs.

I made an poor assumption on similar SPL levels...

What you say makes sense, thanks.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Kevin, It's in the individual DSP settings for each driver. Those windows show everything anyone would want to know (crossover, t/a, eq, levels). 

I actually need to go back and do some stuff with the midbass T/A at some point just to see what I get out of it.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just trying to read and study to understand more. Always learning.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ultimatemj said:


> My pic is not actuals, just used some published charts with lines drawn for the 24db roll-offs.
> 
> I made an poor assumption on similar SPL levels...
> 
> What you say makes sense, thanks.


Good deal.


----------



## charliekwin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread and the recent posts in particular. I don't know about others, but I find it interesting and instructive to see what other people have done with their tuning and DSPs.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

cool deal, man. that's actually the kind of feedback I hoped to get when I started this thread. my goal with the thread was to really outline the things I did/do with this latest build and lay down some of the tuning steps with the goal of others being able to take some things away they could use on their own install or tune. plus, it's a lot easier to document the tune than it is to try to recap it in a single post months removed. 

I've got some more things I'm going to mess around with and if there's any interest, I'll do my best to document the tune as I tweak on them a bit and explain what I'm doing there. I really have covered some key points, so at this point it's more about tweaking the details out as opposed to using a hatchet to cut away at problems. in addition, I've still got some things I haven't expounded on here yet simply because I haven't really had a chance to 'vet' them myself. but hopefully if it shakes out, I can dump it here and let other folks give it a shot.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I will say I know it's hard to read through a thread like this, with some dude rambling on and on about his install and tune, knowing you'll never get the chance to hear it to see if he's full of crap or not. I've personally listened to a few cars from people on forums who seemed to know their stuff forward and back and wondered WTF they were thinking. I even know I've been that guy before. 

That said, the things I'm discussing here ... give 'em a shot. If you don't like what you hear then revert back to what you had before. The goal of this thread was to lay out my own steps, hopefully helping others out as well. I know most everyone reading this doesn't know me from a hole in the wall so all I have to go on is a sense of "this guy seems to be alright" which isn't much in the forum world. But, like I said, you can always ignore me if you find it doesn't work. Feel free to ask questions. Build threads are meant to be interactive; not just a dude's ramblings entirely.


----------



## chevbowtie22

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks Erin. I for one really appreciate this type of thing. Reading not only _what_ you do but _why_ really helps me learn. Honestly I might say even find the why portion more interesting at times then anything else. I would love to demo your car some time. One of these days I will have to make a meet.


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## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

With the first year behind me in MECA, I wanted to say thanks for your posts, sharing your time and knowledge as all has help give me motivation to dig deeper into audio and enjoy it at the same time.


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## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin you ran zapco dsp what did you not like about? I have zapco dc amps and I am wondering if the soft ware and install is gonna hard getting them linked up. Plus using the transmitters . I am just wondering what I getting myself in to.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

oh, wow, man.... you're takin gme back. I haven't had those in my car in about 4 years. lol.

I got rid of those for two reasons: 
1) I didn't want to give up that real estate
2) Switching back and forth between the 2 amps' DSP settings got old quick.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



chevbowtie22 said:


> Thanks Erin. I for one really appreciate this type of thing. Reading not only _what_ you do but _why_ really helps me learn. Honestly I might say even find the why portion more interesting at times then anything else. I would love to demo your car some time. One of these days I will have to make a meet.


I'm actually having a GTG next weekend (Nov 9th). Dunno if you saw it or not, but the details are in a thread linked in my signature. Would enjoy having you out. 



Kevin K said:


> With the first year behind me in MECA, I wanted to say thanks for your posts, sharing your time and knowledge as all has help give me motivation to dig deeper into audio and enjoy it at the same time.


thanks, man. your car has certainly made significant improvements and I can tell you're absorbing a lot of stuff you're reading when you ask me questions I have no idea how to respond to. lol.


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## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks man ya I know it's old  I been digging through all kinds of old posts . I have three to cram in the car . Thinking of tossing them for the stx series and different dsp. Your reviews on the mini dsp and your current one now make me wanna sale the amps


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## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

​Thanks for taking the time, Erin, and for all the info. I enjoy reading your musings even tho half the time I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Lol! Keep up the good work! Wish I could hear the car but you're on the wrong coast. Love the tuning tips, that's where I'm at in my build.


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## BuickGN

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You have no idea how interesting this is to me. As someone who went to 9" midbasses, crossed low (plenty output at 45hz), and ended up right back at a 70hz highpass, this has my attention. I am a little disappointed I gave up a better midbass for this one but at least I have very little excursion and ample power. 

I have a null around 600hz when using "traditional" 3-way crossover points with the midrange covering it. By running the midbass up to 700hz and the midrange from there it nearly eliminates it. 

My crossover points (70,700,3000) aren't exactly traditional but it requires very little eq and this is over my head but I swear it requires less TA as well. It seems like the lower tweeter highpass gives me a larger sweet spot. 

I also find it extraordinarily interesting that the home IB subs are working so well. Would you go so far as to say they sound better than the auto version or just that they sound very good? Is the Q not being affected by the trunk volume much? At least you have a sub that has no issues running higher crossover points. 

Are you using anything to break up the backwave, I've had very good luck with these subs using something behind them to break it up, especially the higher sub frequencies and somehow frequencies way past the crossover point. 

It would be awesome to hear any feedback from you on breaking up or blocking the backwave if you haven't done it with those subs. It was dramatic to say the least but I have no way to measure the changes.


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## chevbowtie22

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I'm actually having a GTG next weekend (Nov 9th). Dunno if you saw it or not, but the details are in a thread linked in my signature. Would enjoy having you out.


I'd love to but its starting to get into my crazy time at work and my little girl's pretty much sapped up the rest of my time. She turns 1 on the 16th.  I'll have to keep on the look out for a spring time meet. I'd like to hit up some of the competitions next year too. I guess time will have to tell.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Golden Ear said:


> ​Thanks for taking the time, Erin, and for all the info. I enjoy reading your musings even tho half the time I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Lol! Keep up the good work! Wish I could hear the car but you're on the wrong coast. Love the tuning tips, that's where I'm at in my build.


Yea, some of this stuff isn't entirely easy to convey in a single post. That's why I do my best to keep this thread updated where applicable and provide links for further reading. But I try my best, so it's certainly nice to see that it's helpful. I'm not really doing anything new here... maybe just discussing it in a car audio forum more.

I've got some tuning goals to reach (hyper focus, ahem, Todd!). This is an area I know I can improve on and will really help take my own satisfaction of my system to a new level. I'll document what I can and maybe it'll help you other dudes out as well. Or at least give you something to know NOT to do. lol.



BuickGN said:


> I also find it extraordinarily interesting that the home IB subs are working so well. Would you go so far as to say they sound better than the auto version or just that they sound very good? Is the Q not being affected by the trunk volume much? At least you have a sub that has no issues running higher crossover points.
> 
> Are you using anything to break up the backwave, I've had very good luck with these subs using something behind them to break it up, especially the higher sub frequencies and somehow frequencies way past the crossover point.
> 
> It would be awesome to hear any feedback from you on breaking up or blocking the backwave if you haven't done it with those subs. It was dramatic to say the least but I have no way to measure the changes.


Yea, in my car, these IB15HT's have been easier to blend at 70hz than any other subwoofer I've used to date. Which is saying a lot. The JL's were the pinnacle for blending for me but the added output of these AE's coupled with the transition being relatively easy to make between midbass and sub has kept me put with them. I actually have the SBP-15 sitting below my feet being broken in right now; it was supposed to go in the car. But, I'm not really sure I see a need for that to happen now. IF I were buying new, I'd likely give the SBP first crack (broader Bl, lower Le), but since I had (6) of the IB15HT upstairs and needed a fix, they went in a few weeks ago and I haven't found a need to replace them. 

I've tried a few things for the backwave but it's only really effective at 300hz+ unless I use something really thick or hang it off the rear deck (to allow an air gap between the wall and the material). At that point, it's just not worth the effort. Especially with a steeper slope. I do have some foam placed in certain areas to see if it helps. TBH, I don't know if it did but I'm going to leave it. 





chevbowtie22 said:


> I'd love to but its starting to get into my crazy time at work and my little girl's pretty much sapped up the rest of my time. She turns 1 on the 16th.  I'll have to keep on the look out for a spring time meet. I'd like to hit up some of the competitions next year too. I guess time will have to tell.



I understand. Mine just turned 3 last week. Time flies! Enjoy your time with the family.


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## BuickGN

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks Erin. When I first saw that you posted not only your crossover points but your TA and just about every detail of your build, I was shocked. This really is full disclosure. I'm enjoying reading over this, I've read it a few times already and looking forward to future additions. 

I have one request just for my own knowledge. Would it be possible one day to take a pair of large pillows and stuff them close behind the subs so that they nearly seal the rest of the trunk from the subs? This made a tremendous difference in mine but it seems I'm the only one. I could tell the other day when one of the pillows came dislodged and fell down while I was stopped at a light. I only ask because you're one of the few with practically the same subs in a similarly sized trunk as me. That's of course if you can do it without getting in trouble from the other half as I did when she realized her pillows were missing and immediately looked at my car like she was going to burn it.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Oh, I'm certain you noticed a difference. I did with some thick acoustic panels. My issue was just that it wasn't something that could be permanent so I tried not to get too excited over it. Lol. 

Re: full disclosure. Yea, man. I have ZERO problem detailing every aspect if it helps. Honestly, I think most of my good friends with awesome systems would as well. The problem is most of is are always experimenting and don't want to toss out bad info. 

I think its cool to see the beginning and end of the process. I enjoy providing the info as long as people get something out of it. That's what keeps me motivated to share. Otherwise I just annoy my friends with stuff that didn't work.


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## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Some dude ran in to me at a red light this morning. 3 minutes away from my work. No major damage; just a freakin hole in the rear bumper. Obviously it will have to be replaced. Had it not been for the two hooks on his front bumper it probably wouldn't have done enough damage to worry about. 

Ughhhh.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sorry to hear that, at least no one was hurt.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Damn dude, that sucks. Glad it was nothing major though.

And like everyone else, I appreciate all the info you've posted and have been out in my car for an hour or so each night playing with this stuff.

Setting different crossover points for each speaker to match roll off points was very interesting to me, especially after seeing how different the response is between speakers on each side of my car.


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## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yea. It's pretty interesting how different crossovers and slopes can play a role. It also does some crazy things to the stage. Sometimes for the better. Sometimes for the worse. Definitely tradeoffs there. But it's an important place spend time because a lot of issues can be resolved with the right crossover.


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## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sorry about your 'bumper bender'. Crap like that is annoying cuz now you gotta waste a bunch of time getting it replaced. Been there, done that.


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## decibelle

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Some dude ran in to me at a red light this morning. 3 minutes away from my work. No major damage; just a freakin hole in the rear bumper. Obviously it will have to be replaced. Had it not been for the two hooks on his front bumper it probably wouldn't have done enough damage to worry about.
> 
> Ughhhh.


Bama drivers... I'm not surprised. 

Glad nothing worse came of it though. Definitely not the best start to your day. At least the car still sounds good


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## ErinH

I'm just glad I don't compete in install. Lol.


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## spyders03

Sorry about the car man, hopefully he is taking care of it.

And I ordered my processor and it is on the truck for delivery now. Can't wait to play with all the crossover types and all the other goodies. Now I just need to find a place to install it...

Swyped while swerving


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Kyle, sorry I didn't see your reply until now. 

I'm sure you've got the DSP installed by now. And you'll have plenty of help with the tuning Saturday from a lot of people. 


In install news, I'm still missing a few things to add. I've done a touch of fine tuning recently and changed mainly just TA. The system has better focus now which improved tonality. Which reminds me of something I see posted from time to time: that you can pick and choose. While to some degree you may sacrifice tonality for imaging or vice versa, the large truth is that if you don't have good imaging, you'll never maximize tonality. Easy example: add 3ms to your tweeters time delay. Then compare back and forth with the normal tune and the added TA tune. Listen for high frequency tonality. It will be different. (Whether it's better or worse is something for another time).


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Your tweeters are right with your mids as far as distance. 

My tweeters are a good distance away from my mids. Adding 3ms or in my case 3.37 feet to mids sound better as far as imaging, staging and tonality. There seems to be this fine little section where everything comes to life. Amazing the difference but I'm sure there's more to get out of it that I haven't tapped into yet. I look forward to listening you your changes and want your input on my tune as well.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I was saying to change the settings and just listen for the difference and impact it has on tonality. The actual numbers you should use vary from setup to setup, as you noted. I just picked a random number to illustrate the difference.


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## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Gotcha. What I found, whether what it should be, but to the ear and mic sounds the best, is about a little over 2 feet difference for drivers side and just a little less difference on passenger. Looking forward to your input Saturday.


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## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Golden Ear said:


> Sorry about your 'bumper bender'. Crap like that is annoying cuz now you gotta waste a bunch of time getting it replaced. Been there, done that.


On the upside, I know some body shops will order the part, paint it and get it ready than you just swing by for a little while (or drop it off for a day) and they swap it. You don't lose too much time that way.

Jay


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## quality_sound

The problem doing it that way is that the paint is almost always mismatched.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I've done a touch of fine tuning recently and changed mainly just TA. The system has better focus now which improved tonality. Which reminds me of something I see posted from time to time: that you can pick and choose. While to some degree you may sacrifice tonality for imaging or vice versa, the large truth is that if you don't have good imaging, you'll never maximize tonality. Easy example: add 3ms to your tweeters time delay. Then compare back and forth with the normal tune and the added TA tune. Listen for high frequency tonality. It will be different. (Whether it's better or worse is something for another time).



I just remembered I posted some information regarding the use of time alignment on tweeters. And while it's not the same as what I discussed in the above quoted, it's pretty similar and I feel bears being mentioned again. 




bikinpunk said:


> random info...
> 
> often it's said that ILD & ITD dictate that phase doesn't matter for high frequencies. It's a notion people have inferred from light reading... and it's not entirely correct. The truth is, time alignment absolutely affects high frequency response. Now, the result isn't as dramatic as it is with midrange frequencies where you can hear the center move left and right with little adjustment between left/right t/a values. However, the time alignment allows a cohesiveness that you can't get simply by adjusting polarity of tweeters. I've often noticed in my car that cycling through T/A 3 times (roughly equivalent to 0.06ms, in 0.02ms steps) results in a full 'phase cycle'. Listen for the "s" sound ... aka: sibilance. Cycle through your T/A and listen for that sound to move out of phase and then *pop* back in phase. You may find the center moves a bit to the right or left, depending on what channel you're adjusting. But this is pretty minor unless you have your tweeters crossed really low. What you'll likely find is that you get in a cycle like I've mentioned where you can literally hear the tweeters pop in phase. Try it. Seriously. You'll notice it. Just shut everything off and leave your tweeters on.
> 
> To illustrate what I've said, here's a comparison of the tweeters in proper polarity; adjusting the left tweeter so it arrives at the same time the right does. The red is with no time alignment. The orange is with time alignment done by ear. See how the red is about 2dB lower than the orange? The orange is in phase and time delayed to match the wavefront of the right side tweeter.


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## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> The problem doing it that way is that the paint is almost always mismatched.


Yeah. But on a car that is a few years old it's going to be hard to get perfect either way. On a dark colored car like Erin's you'd probably have to wheel and polish the whole rest of the car if you want a "perfect" match.

I can almost always pick out body/paint work on a car...even if it was done reasonably well, so I think at this point it's likely no matter how it's handled, it probably won't be a perfect match.

Jay


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

back to the posts about Time Alignment (T/A)...

This stuff makes much more sense if you look at *time alignment *_not _as a way to 'move' a _speaker_, but to _*SHIFT *_*the combing pattern * of a speaker(s). (Speakers being anything; a like pair such as two tweeters, or same side drivers such as left tweeter and left mid.) This is especially true with shorter wavelengths because there’s more opportunity for them to overlap.

If what I'm saying doesn't quite make sense, let’s try looking at it like this:

You know polarity is 0/180 degrees. When you flip the sub one way or the other, you know you get a different sound. Maybe more full, or dull, impactful or pulling to the rear. The same applies to all speakers.
Take two identical speakers playing the exact same passband. When completely "in phase" the two speakers’ output combine to make a boost (constructive interference). When out of phase, the two speakers cancel to make a null (destructive interference). Now, go take a look at this link and make sure to *watch the video*. It does a terrific job of explaining some of what I just said in graphical form:
Destructive Wave Interference | Zona Land Education
From the above video, you can also see that not all phase is all or none (0 or 180 deg). Phase is any angle relating to incremental polarity (0 degrees, 22 degrees, 274.78906 degrees, etc). So, instead of a single bump or null, you may have multiple small bumps and nulls. It just depends on the frequency and how much overlap there is between speakers/reflections. This is comb filtering.
In simplest terms, when you have comb filtering you're simply overlapping two sine waves by some degree X so that you can have certain frequencies in polarity (creating a boost) and certain frequencies out of polarity (creating a null). The amount of phase difference at a given frequency determines just how much of a boost or null you have. This can be caused by reflections or crossover architecture and the boost/nulls are all with respect to where you’re sitting in large part.
For us in the car audio realm, time alignment is a way to alter the combing pattern which is in turn a way of altering the * INCREMENTAL phase change* between speakers.


Comb filtering is exactly the reason why, when you toss a speaker which (anechoically) measures flat in the car, you don’t get a flat response on the RTA. When you toss a speaker in the car, even all on it’s own, the reflections coming back to your ear at the same time the speakers’ output creates combing. Then when you add more speakers you have both the environment and speakers to deal with. This happens to subwoofers as much as it does tweeters. The difference, at least for us in car audio, is how you deal with it (or don’t) due to the wavelength of a frequency the speaker(s) is(are) playing. 



*Let’s look at two completely opposite examples from my own car: High frequency vs low frequency.* 
Note: Here’s a great source for more detailed information and calculations I’ll be using below:
Phase angle calculation from time delay and frequency calculate phase lag difference time of arrival ITD phi phase shift - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

*High Frequency:*
Math time!!! The wavelength of an 8khz cycle is about 1.7 inches (speed of sound @ 13500 in/s ÷ 8000hz = 1.6875 inches). That’s really short. And that’s a full wavelength; typically we deal with quarter or half-wavelengths because it doesn’t take a full cycle to create boosts/nulls. Knowing the wavelength of tweeter frequencies in particular are so short, it's logical that the filtering (boost/null pattern) between speakers can change depending on where you sit _very_ easily. As little as 1/4" can alter what you hear. You may hear 8khz as a bit out of phase and 10khz as a bit more in phase. Ultimately, unless you have a loop back measurement system to accurately and absolutely determine time of arrival for a given speaker - which in and of itself can be problematic if used without consideration of the fact that other sounds happen as part of a system - you are at the mercy of choosing "the best" tradeoff. For example, recently I noticed that the very high frequencies in my car bled a bit left of center. I immediately went to T/A and found that a bit of massaging there brought the focus back (my bit above about increased focus) by setting higher frequencies more in phase with each other and with the mids.

*Low Frequency:*
Subwoofer response in a car is much less affected by time alignment than a tweeter's response is. For example, to substantially alter the combing pattern on the low frequency end, I’d have use a _whole _lot of time alignment. The reason is again tied to wavelength. The wavelength of a 60hz cycle is about 19 ft (13500 in/s ÷ 60hz = 225 inches = 18.75 ft). Whereas the wavelength of an 8khz cycle is about 1.7 inches. As you can imagine, in time, it’s easier to move 1.68 inches than it is to move 225 inches. You’d have to have a whole lot of time delay to do that. You can calculate it in the Sengpiel link I gave above. So, if you want to do something about a null or boost in the sub/midbass range you’re going to have to have significant delay, which will then cause issues with imaging (center, placement of items on stage, etc). 

In short, with time alignment alone, there’s really not much at all you can do about correcting a boost or null in low frequencies. This is where understanding why you have the null or boost is important as it helps you determine what you can and can’t fix. Lesson learned for me: never try to boost a null; you can’t fix a phase cancellation with standard EQ. If/when you try do to this what you’re doing is putting more power to the speaker but it’s not going to do much if anything at all for the response because the null is caused by the position you’re in relative to the speakers around you. On the flip side, you can tame a boost in response by using the EQ. I covered a lot of this earlier in this thread. 

I don’t have time to dig in to it too much, but I will say that this is where processors with actual phase control come in handy. DSPs such as the Helix DSP, Zapco DSP-8, Behringer DCX, etc. These allow you to not just do a polarity (0/180) adjustment, but allow you to incrementally adjust phase which essentially makes up for the huge amount of time delay you’d need to otherwise achieve the same thing. Also, don’t be afraid to flip the polarity of your sub to ‘out of phase’ and work your way back in with it. For example, let’s say your car really would have much better sub/midbass integration if you could somehow achieve a phase angle of 270 degrees at the crossover point of 50hz. Well, to do this, you’d need 15ms delay. OR you can try to flip the sub out of phase and achieve the remaining 90 degrees with about 5ms of delay. 

FWIW, my subwoofer phase is at 290 degrees at the crossover.​


*Key takeaways, at least IMHO:*

Comb filtering is caused almost exclusively by the environment; it not only has numerous reflective surfaces but you’re forced to sit in one location and you’re often forced to put your drivers in suboptimal areas with respect to each other. 
Crossover points and slopes dictate how much overlap there is between like and unlike speakers (ie; two mids or a mid and a tweeter pair).
Time alignment is one way to alter the combing pattern by delaying one speaker with respect to another.
Given the above, what can you control? Crossovers and time alignment. EQ work is just taming a combing issue; not really fixing it. Levels are just a volume control. This is why crossover selection (point and slope) is SO important and why time alignment is also important. If chosen carefully, you mitigate a lot of issues that are within your control and you leave the rest of those issues to ignore or tame via EQ.
 You cannot with any sense of usefulness, boost a null caused by combing. 
You can, however, use an EQ to tame boosts so they are less irritating.
The lower in frequency you go, the longer the wavelength and the harder it is to get usefulness out of time alignment if the goal is to adjust the combing pattern. 
The shorter the wavelength: a) the easier it is to manipulate the combing pattern and b) the less effect time alignment has on placement of things on the stage (use your noggin’, within reason of course).
The longer the wavelength: a) the harder it is to manipulate combing (see: practically impossible) and b) the more effect is has on placement of things on the stage.
To throw a wrench in the above, consider this: time alignment can also be used to alter the combing pattern in a way that gives the perception of *a larger soundstage*. However, it can also do the opposite. 
Finally, time alignment absolutely impacts tonality. The discussion above should illustrate why.



I think that’s about all I’ve got ATM. I typed that up and retyped it a few times so I know I missed some things. Hopefully it makes sense. And make sure to check the links I gave for better reading. 

-	Erin


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Somewhat on this subject, I thought the whole point of the coincident tweeter in the midrange was to create a phase coherent point source. 

I was just looking back at your EQ screens and noticed that you had different t/a between the midrange and tweeter on each side. Why did you find this necessary?


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## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

From the same link above, I found this page helpful to me as well
Conversion of time difference and sound path distance or length millimeters time of arrival milliseconds calculate calculation delay line noise sound wave in air calculator - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin


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## Neil_J

strakele said:


> Somewhat on this subject, I thought the whole point of the coincident tweeter in the midrange was to create a phase coherent point source.
> 
> I was just looking back at your EQ screens and noticed that you had different t/a between the midrange and tweeter on each side. Why did you find this necessary?


Not to speak for Erin, but i would guess that the tweet and midrange will have a different step responses due to different inductances, mechanical suspension, and other driver specs. This will cause a very slight phase difference between the midrange and tweet. Natural rolloff of the the tweet will exhibit some slight delay as well. I'm sure it would still sound pretty damn good with just a passive crossover and no TA, but obviously he is striving for perfection.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strakele said:


> Somewhat on this subject, I thought the whole point of the coincident tweeter in the midrange was to create a phase coherent point source.
> 
> I was just looking back at your EQ screens and noticed that you had different t/a between the midrange and tweeter on each side. Why did you find this necessary?



A few posts back, I mentioned I had messed with TA on the tweeters and now have fixed the tonality and placement. It shouldn't have been as large as it was at finals but I think I just overlooked it compared to everything else I was working on. Probably just forgot to keep the mid/tweeter close by oversight. It wasn't intentional and resulted in poorer sound which I've since corrected. 

Now the delta is about 0.04ms per side. The reason for having a mid/tweeter delta at all really is rooted in my previous post regarding combing.


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## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Ah ok. I can understand a tiny delta but I was surprised when I looked at the pics and saw a large difference, particularly on the right side. 

Thanks for all the informative posts. Between you and a couple others I have a much better tune going right now than I did a few weeks ago.


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## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....ditto 
I may ask questions and sometimes not clearly understand and re-ask in a different way but all this information helps me learn and clearly makes my own car sound better and I take that and help others. Many thanks!



strakele said:


> Ah ok. I can understand a tiny delta but I was surprised when I looked at the pics and saw a large difference, particularly on the right side.
> 
> Thanks for all the informative posts. Between you and a couple others I have a much better tune going right now than I did a few weeks ago.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I really am happy to help, guys. Documenting these kind of things is even good for me since it gives me something to look back to if I get too far off the trail.


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## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

[email protected] it! Where is the "Thanks-a-Million" button?!?! 

As others have said, your time and willingness to post this detailed info is greatly appreciated.


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## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow, that's a lot to get yer head around Erin........thanks for sharing, after a few reviews I feel like tuning........lol, like I need motivation to do that! I've discovered a lot of little things from just tuning, and listening, tuning and listening, but I'm really clueless to the "why's".......thanks for bringing the lagging (me) a little more enlightenment.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Clay, if you'd come to the GTG I could explain this by example a whole lot easier than trying to type it up! lol! Just giving you a hard time, man. Wish you could make it, though.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In another thread, Hanatsu mentioned something that I started to reply to there but thought it would actually be a good fit for the build log. 



Hanatsu said:


> Well. I usually put a bit of tape where the acoustic center lies and focus on that. In my car it's slightly left of the physical center of the dash.




I do the same, to some degree. Though, as you probably know, tuning is an iterative process. My acoustic boundaries typically move a bit when I first start tuning so I may move that piece of tape until I get it pretty nailed down. But, yea... I've also found using something to actually focus on now and again helps; especially with lining up tweeter center to mid center, because the tweeters' focus are so easily impacted by t/a. 

For centering up tweeters and placing that center with the midrange center, I use a mix of tape as a visual cue and no tape when I'm listening for focus on tweeters. For me, it's a two-step process. Namely because, with tweeters, the focus can shift in a small span. In my car, this comes in cycles of about 0.06ms, with each step of 0.02ms being focus, somewhat focus, no focus. Every 0.06ms has this pattern. The center doesn't necessarily move/pan from one side to the other. Moreso, it's the focus that increases because I'm just shifting the combing pattern. After a bit of time fiddling with going with a lot of T/A to a little T/A, I narrow down a small window of time (maybe around 0.3ms) and also note the intervals where the sound is most in phase. This little window is usually when I will employ a piece of tape to help me set my center to the same spot between midbass/midrange/tweeter. 

*Here's an example of all of the above:*

Let's say I have started with my midranges and used T/A and some level matching to get a pretty good acoustical center. 
Now I need to align my tweeters' center to the location of the midrange pair's center.
For acoustical phase of tweeters, there's all that talk above about comb filtering. So, I basically take that knowledge and determine the best T/A I can for my tweeter pair. 
[*]Since panning high frequency isn't as _noticeable _as panning midrange frequencies, the goal with T/A for tweeters is to align them in the *best* phase I can. Then pan them. 
[*]I typically will focus on the 's' sound since it stands out the most to most people. I figure if I can get that lined up, it's the less of the other evils.
[*]As mentioned above, *my tweeter phase from "focus" to "DUDE, NO!" cycles in about every 0.06ms.* With each 0.02ms being focus, less focus, no focus. When I go past that 0.06ms mark, the process starts again. 
[*]I note the T/A values that have me most in phase. Since I know that value occurs every 0.06ms, all I really need to know is one value. So, let's say 3.48ms on the left tweeter and 4.68 on the right tweeter sounds most focused. In order to keep this focus, I need to make sure the delta between tweeters is always proportioned to a 0.06ms delta. ie; 3.42 on the left tweeter is good, but 3.46 isn't. Or 3.36ms (0.12ms) on the left is OK but 3.34ms (0.14ms) is not. Your car may be different. So experiement here. Mostly, I find this is the case, however.​
Knowing this, you can then start aligning your tweeter center to your mid center. I put a piece of tape where the mid center is. Then I align the tweeters in that 0.06ms increment until I feel they have moved to a pretty close spot near the mids. I then use some level matching to help me sync it all together. 
You can use the same information about the tweeter focus wrt T/A increments to align a tweeter to a mid on the same side (ie; left tweeter to left mid).
Then you basically repeat this whole process until you have a stable center image between your left and right acoustical boundaries. Pinpoint imaging is a function of time and levels; and inherently EQ. So don't expect your image to be dialed with only time alignment and levels. BUT, you should be pretty far in unless your left/right responses are wildly different.
And, of course, once you EQ, you'll need to revist this centering again as the EQ will alter things a bit, depending on how much you use and how you approach it.
This is really just a rough idea of the process and by no means is it a one-size-fits-all solution.


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## ike3000

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I note the T/A values that have me most in phase. Since I know that value occurs every 0.06ms, all I really need to know is one value. So, let's say 3.48ms on the left tweeter and 4.68 on the right tweeter sounds most focused. In order to keep this focus, I need to make sure the delta between tweeters is always proportioned to a 0.06ms delta. ie; 3.42 on the left tweeter is good, but 3.46 isn't. Or 3.36ms (0.12ms) on the left is OK but 3.34ms (0.14ms) is not. Your car may be different. So experiement here. Mostly, I find this is the case, however.


This is interesting info. I found that "magical spot" where my two tweeters provide best center image, but I have not explored identifying multiples of a single tweeter delay where it cycles and snaps back in. Mainly I've been keeping the difference of my tweeters strictly set to a single value and delaying/advancing them as a pair to achieve a cohesive sound with my mids. I can't seem to find that magical setting between tweet pair and mid pair. Every track I listen to brings out something different.

I will definitely explore the "cycle point" to see if there's a multiple of where I can retain a center image with tweets and mids. 

BTW, I really enjoy reading your posts. Many articles related to these subjects get too deep into technical blabber. Although I'm an EE, I still like simple explanations. Your posts help me understand the technical aspects, but also provide the practical applications.


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## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yup, I'm extremely bummed I'm missing the gtg, I was excited from the get go. Unfortunately I'll be one of the folks anxiously awaiting pics this time......the drive would've required multiple nights in a hotel, but fuel was what put it over the edge. The finances are a lil rough at the moment, and Santa is coming shortly, so I had to bow out. I'm working some changes out, so hopefully this wont happen again...........so next time dammit, I'll be in the pics instead of waiting on them! Hope you guys have a great time.........


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## Hanatsu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Been reading this thread for some time, never commented though =/

Great build, lots of great info here! 



> As mentioned above, my tweeter phase from "focus" to "DUDE, NO!" cycles in about every 0.06ms. With each 0.02ms being focus, less focus, no focus. When I go past that 0.06ms mark, the process starts again.


I have to agree that T/A definitely have an impact on higher frequencies. Noticed this effect too.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ike3000 said:


> This is interesting info. I found that "magical spot" where my two tweeters provide best center image, but I have not explored identifying multiples of a single tweeter delay where it cycles and snaps back in. Mainly I've been keeping the difference of my tweeters strictly set to a single value and delaying/advancing them as a pair to achieve a cohesive sound with my mids. I can't seem to find that magical setting between tweet pair and mid pair. Every track I listen to brings out something different.
> 
> I will definitely explore the "cycle point" to see if there's a multiple of where I can retain a center image with tweets and mids.
> 
> BTW, I really enjoy reading your posts. Many articles related to these subjects get too deep into technical blabber. Although I'm an EE, I still like simple explanations. Your posts help me understand the technical aspects, but also provide the practical applications.


Yea, I realized the tweeter alignment cycles a couple years ago and when I did, it made it a bit easier for me to tune. Rather than trying to listen to every increment, I just find the denominator that works, then make changes in 0.06ms increments from that point. Still, it's not entirely easy to set t/a for tweeters. Especially when you're trying to line them up to a mid. That's when I start going to pink noise and other test tracks.


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## Hanatsu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I'll be doing some accelerometer testing on my pillars at some point to determine if they are contributing to any audible spikes in response or if it's really speaker/environment based. It's a form of nonlinear distortion but likely structure borne. If I can determine it is the pillar itself, then I should be able to narrow down the point at which it's excited and treat it with duct seal or CLD. It's a bit of work but it beats just throwing stuff at something and hoping it works.
> 
> LAUD has some good stuff on using an accelerometer with the RTA here:
> Using LAUD with ACCELEROMETERS
> 
> 
> I also found this,
> http://www.thaihdbox.net/audioxpress/2011/06audioXpress_June2011.pdf
> which is geared more toward building your own setup. It's pretty in depth but there's some good basic information on using an accelerometer. Notice that both sources recommend the same accelerometer (of which I already own two ).
> ACH-01-04/10 Measurement Specialties, Inc. | Mouser
> 
> The price is excellent. $25+shipping for the very popular accelerometer.
> 
> My issue is bonding these to the structure I'm testing. There are numerous methods; each with their own advantages and issues. There are some really good tutorials on this. One I like is here:
> http://www.wilcoxon.com/knowdesk/mounting.pdf
> 
> and this is one specifically about gluing:
> https://www.endevco.com/news/archivednews/2006/2006_10/tp312.pdf
> 
> 
> Given magnetic acceleromets are so easy to attach and have the best response, I've shopped around for magnetic accelerometers but the more I look, the more I think the ACH-01 is the best value. And given we're not doing industry standard type measurements, as long as your device and source are well calibrated in terms of FR (which the ACH-01 is), the information you can obtain even with a less than stellar method of coupling the accelerometer will suffice, it seems. Based on my experience, as long as the accelerometer is held in place, it does the job just fine. I've used duct seal, double sided tape and even super glue.


Old post but I'm interesting in buying one those ACH-01. I suppose if they work as a microphone, I can simply use REW as software instead?

How do you power these? Some kind of preamp?


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



claydo said:


> Yup, I'm extremely bummed I'm missing the gtg, I was excited from the get go. Unfortunately I'll be one of the folks anxiously awaiting pics this time......the drive would've required multiple nights in a hotel, but fuel was what put it over the edge. The finances are a lil rough at the moment, and Santa is coming shortly, so I had to bow out. I'm working some changes out, so hopefully this wont happen again...........so next time dammit, I'll be in the pics instead of waiting on them! Hope you guys have a great time.........



No opportunity to 'shack up' with a local DIYMA'er? 
Perhaps you can use your overwhelming guile and devilish good looks to bag a 'nights stay' from one of the lovely guests at the local watering hole...? Fromer's guide to Alabama suggests that a handlebar mustache and sleeveless plaid is your ticket to bar-fly heaven!


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> No opportunity to 'shack up' with a local DIYMA'er?
> Perhaps you can use your overwhelming guile and devilish good looks to bag a 'nights stay' from one of the lovely guests at the local watering hole...? Fromer's guide to Alabama suggests that a handlebar mustache and sleeveless plaid is your ticket to bar-fly heaven!


Awesome! So much Win here! 

Of course, I nearly got into a spot of fisticuffs on the way in to Chili's near Erin's house.......Ally, Chris, and Al had gone in, and a kid said something to me on the way out..........it almost became something........I knew Ally had my back though


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> No opportunity to 'shack up' with a local DIYMA'er?
> Perhaps you can use your overwhelming guile and devilish good looks to bag a 'nights stay' from one of the lovely guests at the local watering hole...? Fromer's guide to Alabama suggests that a handlebar mustache and sleeveless plaid is your ticket to bar-fly heaven!


Plaid and handlebars huh, lol! I agree with Jason, full of win fo sho! I'm afraid the finances caused the boss to totally shut it down, it became un-discussable, so I let it die. Therefore I didn't even pursue any type of bargaining for discount lodging. Hey, if momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy........



Of course, I nearly got into a spot of fisticuffs on the way in to Chili's near Erin's house.......Ally, Chris, and Al had gone in, and a kid said something to me on the way out..........it almost became something........I knew Ally had my back though*

Holy moly, did this comment almost provoke you, or were the hooligans intent on confrontation. I would imagine the second, you always seem chill, even when agitated! I can see it now, Jason busting out the training on some fools, when a beast of a man parts the crowd (al!) Would be a sight to behold, I'm sure!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Hanatsu said:


> Old post but I'm interesting in buying one those ACH-01. I suppose if they work as a microphone, I can simply use REW as software instead?
> 
> How do you power these? Some kind of preamp?


You'll just need a way to power it up. Liberty Instruments has some info on using it with their Praxis software. I've been using it with the Klippel but IIRC, it's a pretty straightfoward wire. The only thing you'll need to keep in mind is to limit the voltage going to it; IOW, don't try to throw phantom power at it.


----------



## Hanatsu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> You'll just need a way to power it up. Liberty Instruments has some info on using it with their Praxis software. I've been using it with the Klippel but IIRC, it's a pretty straightfoward wire. The only thing you'll need to keep in mind is to limit the voltage going to it; IOW, don't try to throw phantom power at it.


Thanks 

Looks promising. I'll probably build that little preamp the Praxis document suggested. Doesn't look too hard to build.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> _Let me preface this by again noting:
> I'm just a dude playing with stereo using ideas and principles others way smarter than me have provided 20, 30, 40+ years ago. I don't intend to come off as a know it all. These are just my recent endeavors which contribute to my reasons for changing some things in my car._
> 
> 
> 
> Around the time my dreams were shot, I ordered some Kef stuff to test. The first was the HTS3001SE followed by the Q100. I chose these because I figured it was time to give a coax a chance. Zaph did testing on the Q100 driver last year and it looked really good but I didn't see a way for me to really use it. Ahhhhh.... anyway, it was just another thing for me to test and wound up being something I really felt hit the mark. Kef wound up making it in the car because of my results.
> 
> Unlike standard coax designs, these drivers implement the tangerine waveguide for the tweeter to help provide a more evenly distributed response off-axis. And this is the reason I was so intrigued by these. The more I've experimented with speakers, the more I've found what truly matters is sound power. HD, IMD, etc... that's great to measure to make sure there's no issues. But by far and large the most important aspect of a speaker system performance is the linear distortion (frequency response) on and off-axis. Toole's research shows this and I'm just now realizing the importance of his studies. Linkwitz and Geddes all share similar results. Some links here:
> http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20130211/5270.pdf
> http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about_audio/loudspeakers_rooms.pdf
> Constant directivity loudspeaker designs
> 
> The cliff's notes version is that smooth response characteristics is prevalent. And not just on-axis. Off-axis response matters just as much because it contributes to envelopment. That's probably the butchered summary, though. Feel free to do your own research.
> 
> A MAJOR component of sound power, outside of smooth off-axis response on the high end, is the fact response matching between two speakers is not trivial. It's the most single important aspect of speaker design that I can think of. Of course, having a good drive unit to start with is still key here as well. It goes back to the whole idea of beaming. We all hear that a sub is omindirectional. This isn't really true. It's omni, but only to a point. This point where it's no longer omni is often referred to as 'beaming'. We see that term used a lot to describe when a speaker gets bright... but that's not really the accurate definition. Beaming is the point where the driver no longer radiates sound evenly based on frequency. However, a driver doesn't just beam at a certain point. It's a gradual effect. At the point where the driver's diameter is approximately equal to 1/2 wavelength it's playing, the response begins to drop off-axis; this is beaming. Note: Really, it's closer to 1/3 or 1/4th, but 1/2 is a good rule of thumb. The further off axis and/or higher in frequency you go, the more directional the sound from the driver is.
> 
> For example, let's look at the Scan Speak 10f midrange.
> The Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> This is called a 4" mid, but the diameter is only about 78mm, measured from surround to surround. That's roughly 3 inches.
> 13,500 (speed of sound in/s) / 3inches = 4,500 hz.
> 
> This number is just the wavelength in sound of 3 inches. We need to get one-half of this to determine approximate beaming. So, we get:
> 4500hz/2 = ~ 2250hz
> 
> The above means at about 2250hz, the response between on axis vs off axis begins to diverge. Looking at the measurements below, you can see this is pretty close to an accurate calculation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time you reach 4khz, the response between 0 degrees (on axis) and 30 degrees off-axis is about 3dB down. I know Vance Dickison in Voice Coil often references the 3dB point as a notional crossover point. This means you'd want to mate a tweeter with this midrange at (at least) 4khz in order to maintain some type of wavefront symmetry.
> 
> Big picture: at the crossover point, there the goal should be to have no difference in the mid's off-axis dispersion and the tweeters's dispersion. Ideally this means, while the tweeter is omni on the low end (again, it doesn't beam until the wavelength is about 1/2 the driver diameter) the mid is - or at least very close to - omnidirectional. This is why tweeters with low Fs are so widely used when paired with a 6.5" midwoofer.
> 
> So, two major aspects of speaker/system design:
> 
> Good sound power; with no holes in response due to improper crossover points and/or slopes being used between drivers
> Smooth off-axis response that doesn't have large peaks and nulls in response. It doesn't have to be flat. But it does need to be smooth! Toole has done research regarding the smoothness of the response of a driver within the crossover points used, which is a bit different than what I'm discussing regarding smooth off-axis response. Essentially, FR smoothness versus directivity index.
> 
> Paradigm does a good job at explaining this on their site here:
> The Low-Down on Dispersion - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.
> 
> But, here's some pictures they use to describe it.
> Mismatched dispersion where the woofer and tweeter have a higher crossover point and the woofer is beaming:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here's a lower crossover point used where the woofer and tweeter share similar dispersion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does this really mean, though? IME, as stated above, it contributes to envelopment. When the crossovers are set such that the off-axis response between mid and tweeter blend extremely well, there is no 'hole' in the response. The sound is spread throughout the listening environment and what you get is a shared chaos that kind of takes the room by the hand and says "come join me, dude". The soundstage opens up... like BAM! Staging and instruments on the stage are much more spread out (when needed) and things just *sound* more natural. How real it sounds depends on the response curve itself but if you're building a proper crossover point with all the above information in mind, odds are you're also using drivers with very good response or at least crossing within the band before the response gets hideous.
> 
> 
> To get good sound power, proper crossover use is absolutely necessary. This isn't trivial. When you separate speakers by some distance you also have to account for lobing of the two wavefronts along with other details that I can't even recall. Ideally, you'd have one driver that does everything. This is why wideband/fullrange drivers are so popular. However, they have issues of their own. One large issue being modal issues which can make for very poor response both on and (especially) off axis. Some companies have gotten to the point where these issues are tamed but no one has perfected it. I just don't see it ever happening. So, it's a tradeoff.
> 
> The alternative is to use a Coaxial speaker. They are rife with their own issues. I've used car audio and home audio coax speakers in the past and not been impressed. They all had issues. Especially the ones with the tweeter mounted above the mid. Coax's with the tweeter mounted inside the woofer are considered concentric and have large benefits, yet even those are problematic in response. The Seas designs like these have nasty resonances in the mid and tweeter. A couple years ago my buddy Kirk was trying to get me in to Tannoy dual concentrics but I was too naive to understand the benefits. Since then, I've come around. I tested the Kef HTS3001SE, Q100 and R300 coax drive units recently and was very impressed by the results; both objectively and subjectively.
> Kef’s HTS3001SE… I cracked the Egg! | Medley's Musings
> Kef Q100 Speaker Drive Unit Testing | Medley's Musings
> Kef R300 Midrange Drive Unit Testing | Medley's Musings
> 
> 
> Each is a step up with the HTS3001SE drivers being on the low end and the R series being the top. However, even the lower level Q100 bookshelves ($400-450 used on ebay for a set) are far beyond any standard 2-way speaker design I've heard yet. At their price point, there's nothing I've heard better.
> 
> Kef also makes and employ smaller, lower cost version concentric speakers in the 1005SE:
> KEF KHT1005.2SE Home Audio Speaker System w/ White Satellite Speakers - Newegg.com
> I have yet to test these, but the big difference besides size (these are about 3 to 3.5"; the others are no less than 4.5") is the fact they do not use the tangerine waveguide. There are obviously other differences.
> 
> After testing these and enjoying them so much, it seemed only natural to make them part of my install. Right?... I mean, I change gear all the time so why not...
> 
> The HTS3001SE would be a good choice as it's a bit smaller but I wasn't a fan of the plastic basket so much. The Q100 is a great midwoofer/tweeter combo so that was an option. Unfortunately it's OD is just a touch too large for my use. The R300 driver comes from a $1200 set... OUCH. You can't buy these separately, either. Luckily, someone who is a fan of my site helped me out here and I wound up getting a set of R300's. They're large... very large. And much more a dedicated midrange with design implementations to carry out this task (shorting rings, ribbed cone). So, that's what I chose. And that's what the goal of the recent pillar build was to house. So, here is what is in my pillars now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, back to this whole crossover design junk... this is where passive systems fail because no one knows where the mid and tweeter will be installed. It's kind of a crap shoot. Active allows you the opportunity to set the crossover points yourself, for your own install, and hopefully get a better sound. Well, you can't really measure the car for crossover points directly, though there are methods you can try that would help you get there... it just would take a while. There's no way to really simulate a car install for the purpose of taking measurements because you can't simulate a tweeter in a pillar and a mid in a door. This is where having the concentric design is really cool. Since the mid and tweeter are designed together I can measure them on my baffle to determine the best crossover points and settings. So, I mounted the drive unit on my test baffle and connected the Arc Audio PS8 to my amp. I ran the speaker active and then started playing with crossover points, focusing on maintaining a smooth response on and off-axis and having no holes or bumps at the crossover point when measured off axis. If the crossover point between these two are good out of the car, then I know I'm starting with the best basis I can before it even gets in the car. One could argue against this but it seems to have worked very well based on my own subjective evaluation.
> 
> Here is the result I landed on. The crossover between mid and tweeter was about 3khz with an LR2 slope. The measurements are 0, 30, 45, 60 and 90 degrees. There is no EQ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I averaged all the above together and smoothed the response to 1/3 octave, I get this:
> http://medleysmusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/drive-unit-average-one-third.png
> 
> In some ways, it very much emulates the JBL MS-8 target curve. This is simply a function of Kef's design seemingly targeting smooth sound power, which is all rooted in Toole's research mentioned way above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, on to the car install and results....



Dude...I want to say thanks for posting some awesome info in a way I am able to comprehend it (after reading several times of course  ) in your build log (and sound power 101 thread).

I've been putzing around with different install locations and crossover points with "wideband" drivers for some time and finally got to see and understand why this is so important by playing around with it.

I took a new set of dome midranges and tweeters and tried placing them in various locations and angles. I found that I always got the best response when the crossover point was set *lower*, not higher as many would suggest with a midrange capable of playing (on axis) into the 8-10K range. I finally realized that this is due to much more even power response. By keeping the drivers crossed over much closer to their beaming point I don't have nearly the issues with response holes. You know..adjust your seat, turn your head, slouch in the seat and response stays very consistent as opposed to getting wacky. I realized that the _direct_ sound response was a much closer match with the _reflected_ sound response because I crossed the drivers over in a range where they are much closer to omni directional.

I don't understand why people say that they use a high crossover on a wide-bandwidth mid to "control dispersion". I question how much control there is when you have extremely varied frequency response between your midrange's direct vs reflected sound as well as between the narrow dispersion vs wide dispersion of the tweeter. 


Something finally clicked :laugh:


-Steve


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The speaker choice and placement, with the tuning and speaker placement is astonishing. The results you have received for them is awesome. You did tons and tons of research prior to beginning this build and has surely paid off. 

I look forward to you showing up at the NC gtg, and demoing your ride. The work you have put into it awesome and it shows.

-Juan


----------



## ike3000

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Yea, I realized the tweeter alignment cycles a couple years ago and when I did, it made it a bit easier for me to tune. Rather than trying to listen to every increment, I just find the denominator that works, then make changes in 0.06ms increments from that point. Still, it's not entirely easy to set t/a for tweeters. Especially when you're trying to line them up to a mid. That's when I start going to pink noise and other test tracks.


I've been doing some experimenting with this and found that 6 clicks (3" on the 80PRS) on either tweeter keeps the image centered and sounding the best. Oddly 3" is half thel wavelength of a 2250 Hz wave and my xover is at 2500 Hz. I've been moving each tweet in 3" increments to see what sounds best overall, then taking it up/down 0.5" to see if the sound improves.

Following the instructions on this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gnment-using-only-noise-tracks-your-ears.html, I've been using pink noise and had some pretty good success. Have you found better success using another method?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Dude...I want to say thanks for posting some awesome info in a way I am able to comprehend it (after reading several times of course  ) in your build log (and sound power 101 thread).
> 
> I've been putzing around with different install locations and crossover points with "wideband" drivers for some time and finally got to see and understand why this is so important by playing around with it.
> 
> I took a new set of dome midranges and tweeters and tried placing them in various locations and angles. I found that I always got the best response when the crossover point was set *lower*, not higher as many would suggest with a midrange capable of playing (on axis) into the 8-10K range. I finally realized that this is due to much more even power response. By keeping the drivers crossed over much closer to their beaming point I don't have nearly the issues with response holes. You know..adjust your seat, turn your head, slouch in the seat and response stays very consistent as opposed to getting wacky. I realized that the _direct_ sound response was a much closer match with the _reflected_ sound response because I crossed the drivers over in a range where they are much closer to omni directional.
> 
> *I don't understand why people say that they use a high crossover on a wide-bandwidth mid to "control dispersion". I question how much control there is when you have extremely varied frequency response between your midrange's direct vs reflected sound as well as between the narrow dispersion vs wide dispersion of the tweeter. *
> 
> 
> Something finally clicked :laugh:
> 
> 
> -Steve


Steve, thanks for the reply here, man. I appreciate the feedback. I'm glad to know that my posts helped you out. Unfortunately, a lot of people see it as just technical jabber and never try it out themselves. I'm a strong believer that narrowing dispersion, ESPECIALLY when trying to mate a tweeter that's omni while the mid is as narrow as a pin (and likely behaving very badly if there's no cone damping) is a very, very bad thing. Much more so in such a highly reflective environment. It really narrows the sweet spot and hurts the sense of space that a good set of speakers crossed at the right spots can provide. Your words may help inspire some others to give it a shot. So, thanks!



Black Rain said:


> The speaker choice and placement, with the tuning and speaker placement is astonishing. The results you have received for them is awesome. You did tons and tons of research prior to beginning this build and has surely paid off.
> 
> I look forward to you showing up at the NC gtg, and demoing your ride. The work you have put into it awesome and it shows.
> 
> -Juan


Thanks for the compliments. I'd like to make that NC meet but it's still a toss up at this point. 



ike3000 said:


> I've been doing some experimenting with this and found that 6 clicks (3" on the 80PRS) on either tweeter keeps the image centered and sounding the best. Oddly 3" is half thel wavelength of a 2250 Hz wave and my xover is at 2500 Hz. I've been moving each tweet in 3" increments to see what sounds best overall, then taking it up/down 0.5" to see if the sound improves.
> 
> Following the instructions on this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gnment-using-only-noise-tracks-your-ears.html, I've been using pink noise and had some pretty good success. Have you found better success using another method?


I've used that method a few times over the years along with other various methods. I posted another method for subwoofer alignment in that thread that's somewhat of a takeoff. Typically, though, I use a few different methods for time alignment because each has a different benefit. Short wavelengths, long wavelength, matching sides to each other... quite a few ways to do it and none are really more right than the other. So, if that works for you, keep rocking it!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Robert and I worked together to make a site where you can obtain time delay values from distance measurements. It's not perfect, but it gets you in the ballpark really, really quick.


For more information on it, here's the thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nt-via-tape-measure-site-nifty-tweak-too.html

Here's a link to the site:
http://tracerite.com/calc.html


Hope that helps some of you guys,
Erin


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^^^You are a good man, Erin (and Robert)!


----------



## REGULARCAB

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

How have i not read through this before. Good stuff, though im only half way through.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Small update. That alpine RF remote is HORRIBLE! It's incredibly unresponsive. I put it in for ergo reasons and it's more annoying to use than the headunit. So, I quit using that and stuck with the regular remote while I waited to get some extra funds to buy what I really wanted... my new toy! 

First, to give credit where it's due, I got this idea from Todd. Though, his has a different volume knob shape/size. He found one of these and from the get go I was intrigued but didn't want to buy it until I saw it in action. So, when we met up at Finals I took it for a spin. Really cool piece. About 5 months later (some kind of record in patience for me) I ordered one myself. 

I got it in yesterday and removed my headunit to test it on the bench. Everything worked well; it programmed like a champ. There are two simple plug-in harnesses: power and IR transmitter. To program, you simply reset the unit, push a button you want to program, and use your regular remote. Same as with any universal remote that allows IR/IR programming. Depending on your headunit, you can program the buttons to do different tasks than another may do. For example, the jog wheel can be turned clockwise and counterclockwise like a volume knob. It also can be toggled up/down/forward/back. I imagine a p99 would be awesome here when it comes to navigating an iPod. Since I have an alpine, however, I only programmed the jog wheel for volume turns. I won't bore you guys with the rest of the buttons I programmed. Just giving an example. The cool thing is this can be used with any headunit that uses a remote so I'm future-proof if I decide to change h/u's. Though, I'll say I've had this alpine for about a year now and still enjoy it daily. 

The next step was to toss it in the car to see where I like the position. The picture below is a mock up. I'll finish it up to look more like the RF remote setup I had once I determine where I want this to be placed on the console topper. I drove to work this morning like this and I will say this: I am in love. This thing is awesome. Works like a champ so far (had an issue with it dropping settings but think I figured out what it was). It's a great ergo solution for me, in my car, the way I sit. No need to fumble with a remote and no need to take eyes off the road to adjust the headunit. I prefer this over SWI controls even because I don't drive with my hands at 9 & 3. Once I get this flushed in and cosmetically finished, I'll be good to go. Hope to have it done before Jason's NC meet next month. I also hope to provide better pictures than these grainy cell phone ones.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Is that from a BMW?


----------



## Notloudenuf

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


>


That looks a lot like the BMW iDrive (isn't that what it's called?) or the Audi piece.

I think it looks great! I'm really looking forward to meeting you and hearing your car in April.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Link?


----------



## quality_sound

thehatedguy said:


> Is that from a BMW?


No. The iDrive knob is smaller, has rubber for a grip on the edge of the wheel, and only has push buttons above and below the knob. I REALLY liked it. Very ergonomic. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

AFAIK, iDrives aren't IR programmable. I could be wrong. But I remember searching for that and never found that info.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

is there a USB version of this? i want to use it with my carpc!!

i have something similar (3Dconnexion SpaceNavigator 3D Mouse)

but it does NOT support custom programming with its software, and i am not genious enough to build that kind of driver\ui\software for it.

alas, :'(


----------



## ErinH

That's what I was going to suggest. Outside of that, I've got nothin'.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

bummer. i did some quick google-fu and there is only one other product that i could maybe use, and it is just a pause\play\volume^\volumev\next track\previous track.

Griffin Technology PowerMate USB Multimedia Controller 


i would really like to have more control of stuff - and the ability to use it as a mouse would be awesome when <app change> happens. so when i minimize to the desktop it would then be a 3d mouse and not a media remote. *sigh*


----------



## BigRed

Where did u find that Erin?


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^^ I'm curious too.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey guys, check out my badass new remote toy...it does X, Y and Z and is way cool. Don't you just wish you could have one too? Yeah, I betcha do...


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I Lol'd


----------



## ErinH

Indeed!


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

still he does not tell us where he got it...

ill have to ask todd then huh... -_-


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm not posting in public because I may order an extra soon and don't want people going all shenanigans and depleting the stock. 

those who have asked know.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

i technically didnt ask. touche.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I know what and where ... muahahahhahahahaaaa


----------



## ErinH

Here's the link:
http://bit.ly/1bhIFVV


----------



## MacLeod

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Here's the link:
> http://bit.ly/1bhIFVV


OK, thats just cool as **** right there. Wonder if there is a way to make that thing work with a P99.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



MacLeod said:


> OK, thats just cool as **** right there. Wonder if there is a way to make that thing work with a P99.


I'll let you know in 2 weeks.


----------



## diy.phil

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

that remote is delicious!!


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Did you program the DMB button to automatically start playing Dave Matthews Band songs?

Jay


----------



## ErinH

Todd was using a p99 with his. He didn't program the iPod controls though because he was worried people may accidentally get in to the tuning menu and mess something up. Iirc. 

I actually wanted to buy a p99 just for the remote. That's how cool it is.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yeah that looks about perfect. How do the controls feel? Well built?

EDIT: I have asked about bulk pricing for possible group buy.


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Can you ask for my money back since I did all this free advertising for him as well? 

I thought some people would like it but I didn't expect it to reach GB status.


----------



## quality_sound

bikinpunk said:


> AFAIK, iDrives aren't IR programmable. I could be wrong. But I remember searching for that and never found that info.


That is correct

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I asked, he said no.  Kidding, but thanks.

Seller says, $115 without shipping if we buy more than 20 units.

I'm in for one.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

FWIW, I'm looking in to options that will allow me to change the lettering to something that makes sense for my purpose. So far I've been told Vinyl is out (by someone who does Vinyl for a living) because the letters are too small to cut properly. I went to Hobby Lobby last night and found some transferable decal lettering but after doing a few test runs, I'm not too sure how well it will work. The letters will stay, but getting them to transfer perfectly is tough. 

I've already sanded the buttons and knob down with 2k grit. I'm going to paint mine today or tomorrow and then try to transfer the letters to the remote pieces. Hopefully it works. If it does, I'll post up a link or picture of what I got so you guys can buy it, too. 

If not, then I'll have to look in to the water transfer decal method Robert & Todd mentioned to me. And if that doesn't work, there's always silkscreen.... (too expensive).

If anyone else has suggestions for a relatively cheap way to add personal lettering to these buttons post it up. Keep in mind we're already paying a good deal for the remote itself so spending a lot more on letters isn't really my thing. I could actually do without letters, personally, but it would give it that added touch of looking like it's meant to be there.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



schmiddr2 said:


> I asked, he said no.  Kidding, but thanks.
> 
> Seller says, $115 without shipping if we buy more than 20 units.
> 
> I'm in for one.


I actually paid $140 shipped for mine so that's a good deal.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Are the keys removable? Could do a braille/touch addition probably easier than anything.

And assuming $10 for shipping on each, then it comes out to $125. If he is not willing to ship to 20 addresses and we have to reship from US address, it might be about the same price as Erin paid.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

They are removable. 4 screws on the back remove the baseplate and then you can pop the buttons off with a bit of effort.

This thing is really quite easy to disassemble. The knob pops right up out of the body but there stabilizer piece is still connected to the knob via 2 small screws. Remove those and you're good to go. 

I'll take pictures of the parts so people can see what I'm talking about should they decide to order some for themselves and post them here (and in a GB thread if you decide to put one up).


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If you're going to do a GB, let's not do it here. Won't get as much attention and it'll totally derail this thread. Just quote my initial post or link back to it in the GB thread to explain what it is if you want.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've been trying to figure out how to make the button labeling work as well. You told me the unit has illumination. Do the letters on the buttons illuminate?


----------



## BigRed

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, do the buttons light up? the knob surrounding?


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

For anyone interested in what DMB stands for: 

Digital Multimedia Broadcasting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like this remote. Don't like its price though.


----------



## ErinH

Yes the buttons light up. Or they are supposed to. The ad says the blue wire connects to illumination. But I don't personally care for that so I didn't connect that wire.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Great idea with that remote Erin.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

thanks for the link. now i want to hack a bluetooth remote to this thing and use it as a carPC remote...


----------



## eighty5iv

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Any chance of a demo video once you get it up and running? I kinda wish I saw it in action with the P99.


----------



## highly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

After the horrific sticker shock of buying one of these myself (at close to $200!), I set out to replicate it's functionality at a lower price point. The breadpoarded unit has most of the functionality working, but I've had enough going on that progress has been slow. It's based around the same Alps joystick controller and rotary encoder device and functions similarly using fewer buttons. It would be designed more towards custom use. If I ever had time to finish the project, I was planning to make them available under a $75 price point. If you guys are getting a group buy together on these for the low prices you are reporting, that seems a moot point. The seller was disinterested in talking about larger buys as he only had a few available when I got mine. I guess I snoozed too long on this one!


----------



## highly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



req said:


> thanks for the link. now i want to hack a bluetooth remote to this thing and use it as a carPC remote...


That seems a bit excessive. Why not simply get an infrared receiver? Program your carpc to respond to a regular IR remote (they must have something like LIRC for Windows), then program this to emulate that remote. I can't imagine how it could be simpler. Getting a serial bluetooth transmitter to retransmit IR codes over BT seems the long way around.

Just a though. It may be easier than I imagine.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*




highly said:


> That seems a bit excessive. Why not simply get an infrared receiver? Program your carpc to respond to a regular IR remote (they must have something like LIRC for Windows), then program this to emulate that remote. I can't imagine how it could be simpler. Getting a serial bluetooth transmitter to retransmit IR codes over BT seems the long way around.
> 
> Just a though. It may be easier than I imagine.


oh no lol thats what i meant. i dont know why i wrote bluetooth in there. i just meant buy a windows remote that uses infrared and program this, and then use the reciever that came with it instead of the remote itself. 

im running into a problem with my current remote im trying to program (the 3Dconnexion spacenavigator). apparently new beta drivers came out for the thing and i can now use it as a 2D mouse\joystick in any application. my problem is that windows does not have a keyboard shortcut for volume operation!!! so in order to get volume working the new drivers have to be modded or something.

this remote keeps looking better every day - but that link erin posted is defunct and now i dont have it anymore...


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

sdrive sm5 | eBay


----------



## ErinH

Random photos of songs I've been jamming to ...



























^ really cool version of LMFAO's song


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

back to the remote talk...

I am not sure how much I like this thing. For some reason, it's not wanting to keep my settings. It seems to be a bit finicky... it'll work for a day then stop. The transmit LED lights up when I push a button but the signal isn't getting recognized for some reason by the deck (it's either not getting transmitted or received correctly and I don't know which is the problem). I'll re-program it and it may work for an hour, then not anymore. re-program and it works for a day again... Bottom line is there is no common theme. It's just finicky. It did this on the bench when I first got it, but I hoped it would stop once I got it in the car. So, to those of you buying one, keep this in mind. Hopefully you have better luck. I don't believe Todd's had any issues out of his. 

I'm not going to remove it just yet, but I am starting to think it's usefulness has reached the end if things don't turn around. Pains me to say it... especially given how much I've spent. And a refund isn't going to happen since I painted it (and dealing with an overseas refund wouldn't be worth my time). 


In other news, I've kind of ditched car audio the past few months. Not sure if anyone has seen but I am really getting in to the home audio side of things since Finals wrapped up last year. I am in the process of building my own 3-way active towers using the Kef drivers I have in the car and a 10" Scan revelator. Build log starts here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2056060-post97.html


I do plan on trying a few new tuning techniques before the NC GTG. I'll try to document a few of them here. Nothing ground breaking... just a different way of going about setting up crossovers than I mentioned back in October.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> In other news, I've kind of ditched car audio the past few months. Not sure if anyone has seen but I am really getting in to the home audio side of things since Finals wrapped up last year. I am in the process of building my own 3-way active towers using the Kef drivers I have in the car and a 10" Scan revelator. Build log starts here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2056060-post97.html



Sounds interesting. I'll be following along. I took the dive a couple years ago on a somewhat aggressive visual design and used the Usher 8955A, Tangband Bamboo and LCY ribbons. 

My (in progress) project *pics too*

Was a long project with a lot of firsts for me (2 part auto paint, veneering and staining, etc) all on my first home speaker build.


----------



## BigRed

Have u tried running constant 12 volts to it temporarily to see if that's the problem? (Remote)


----------



## ErinH

I haven't. But it does it without powering down. It'll be working and then stop while I'm driving.


----------



## BigRed

Ehhh. Ok


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> I haven't. But it does it without powering down. It'll be working and then stop while I'm driving.


That's discouraging.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

yea, well, hopefully you guys don't have the same issue. that GB train started up pretty fast before I could give any long-term feedback.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I hate having to regularly reprogram things, so it would be a deal killer for me. Has Todd had this issue?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Not as far as I know. I asked him about it and he said nope.


----------



## BigRed

I already ordered one so I'm hoping it's not a problem for all of them


----------



## Chaos

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> In other news, I've kind of ditched car audio the past few months. Not sure if anyone has seen but I am really getting in to the home audio side of things since Finals wrapped up last year. I am in the process of building my own 3-way active towers using the Kef drivers I have in the car and a 10" Scan revelator. Build log starts here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2056060-post97.html



Home theater, at least to me, is so much more instantly gratifying and far less frustrating than mobile audio. The first DIY monitors I built still sound so much better than any mobile install I have ever had that it is really rather sad when I consider how much more effort is involved with autosound.

On the other hand, you can't take it with you and I don't have time to just sit around the house and listen to music. I don't know about you, but I find that the combination of driving and high amplitude (and hopefully high fidelity) music just compliments each other too well to ever settle for something less than an upgraded mobile system.


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Chaos said:


> I don't know about you, but I find that the combination of driving and high amplitude (and hopefully high fidelity) music just compliments each other too well to ever settle for something less than an upgraded mobile system.



I'm focusing on home audio. Not selling my car system. Lol.

After finals, I did one final tune before my GTG and had the car sounding better than ever. At that point, I was satisfied. I'll still be messing with it but my focus has shifted away from it for the time being.


----------



## Chaos

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yeah, I figured that. I was just saying that I understand how easy it can be to get burned out on autosound from time to time, but that urge we all have to conquer the challenge usually keeps us coming back for more.

Then again, seeing the effort you are putting into HT design, my perspective may not be as valid as I thought.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I am a car audio junkie D) at heart, and with the 40 mile one-way trip to work each day, it's great to have a system to jam to. But, like I said, my strong passion for installing and swapping gear in quest for something great has diminished lately. I'm really satisfied with the current system as it sits, at least gear wise (the tune needs some work, still) and I've got the home audio stuff to fill my down time to keep me from scratching the car audio itch.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

i feel you erin.

since i went to finals in '11 (iirc) i have just been hanging out with car audio friends at a few meets here and there. i focused a lot of my time installing my home theater (still have to build my subwoofer manifold for IB though) and i really am enjoying watching dexter every night on 122" projector and 5.1 through my B&W\emotiva system with my wife.

i am able to click play on my phone via google play music + chromecast and stream (higher) quality music with my phone as a remote through my stereo. its great for parties and anyone with a google account (youtube\google music) can hook up as long as they are on my wifi network.

i use my "h\t livingroom" almost every single day. i do not ever go to the movies anymore. it is the single best thing as far as entertainment is concerned that i have ever put my money into. if i calculated 1 movie per night + popcorn for my wife and i for a year - about $35\each time - thats like 12 THOUSAND dollars a year. i put a fraction of $ into this system and i feel my return of investment in entertainment points is well worth it 


so i will keep following your build, and hopefully the next time im in the neighborhood ill get to watch a movie with ya


----------



## audio+civic

Not to derail the thread, but isn't chromecast great. Look into PLEX it is a home media server that works with the chromecast. 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## eighty5iv

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Its a bit disappointing to hear that the IR remote wheel you got didn't work out. I hope other members here who ordered it arn't having any trouble with them. I was hoping to get one but after hearing about your problems with it, it makes me hesitant. I guess I will wait for other members to post their reviews and experience with it before I make a decision.


----------



## Tnutt19

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



req said:


> i feel you erin.
> 
> since i went to finals in '11 (iirc) i have just been hanging out with car audio friends at a few meets here and there. i focused a lot of my time installing my home theater (still have to build my subwoofer manifold for IB though) and i really am enjoying watching dexter every night on 122" projector and 5.1 through my B&W\emotiva system with my wife.
> 
> i am able to click play on my phone via google play music + chromecast and stream (higher) quality music with my phone as a remote through my stereo. its great for parties and anyone with a google account (youtube\google music) can hook up as long as they are on my wifi network.
> 
> i use my "h\t livingroom" almost every single day. i do not ever go to the movies anymore. it is the single best thing as far as entertainment is concerned that i have ever put my money into. if i calculated 1 movie per night + popcorn for my wife and i for a year - about $35\each time - thats like 12 THOUSAND dollars a year. i put a fraction of $ into this system and i feel my return of investment in entertainment points is well worth it
> 
> 
> so i will keep following your build, and hopefully the next time im in the neighborhood ill get to watch a movie with ya


I had a spare room turned into a theater room with a 140" projector and your right, worth every penny. We since had to take it down and use the room by not a day goes by I do not miss it! Can not wait to do another. It is amazing how movies or shows that normally are mediocre at best come to life on a large projector and great surround sound.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

After having some issues in the car, I scrapped my tune on the tweeter and midrange and have started over. I've spent about 2 hours now working on just the T/A, levels and crossovers on the tweeter/midrange. As I was going through some of the steps, I thought it might be useful to capture some of the method I use to tune by ear on this thread. 

I'll write down some notes and maybe include some photos of the notepad I use to breakdown things and post them up. nothing crazy or grandiose... but maybe it'll help someone stuck or starting out get some momentum in their tuning.So, if any of you folks are interested in this, go ahead and download the CD from this thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-music-forum/156593-my-gtg-mix-cd.html

^ that has the pink noise tracks I use to set up things by ear and will be referencing that in future posts.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm sure that will help people. I have considered taking notes before. I just set what I thought were logical points, slopes, and measure to get T/A. But help dialing that in by ear would be cool.


----------



## ErinH

Finally got the remote installed and it's acting OK right now. I decided against decals for now since I'm the only one who will really be using it and I can easily tell people which buttons to use when they want a demo. 

The color looks better in person. And the ergo is really nice.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bikinpunk said:


> Finally got the remote installed and it's acting OK right now. I decided against decals for now since I'm the only one who will really be using it and I can easily tell people which buttons to use when they want a demo.
> 
> The color looks better in person. And the ergo is really nice.



Nice! How much of it did you take apart to paint it?


----------



## ErinH

All of it. Just 6 screws, though. The knob has two that have to be removed to separate the knob base cover. The buttons themselves are just held on to the base as one piece via four screws. You shouldn't need to remove the buttons individually unless you just want to. If you paint yours just do multiple light coats and you should be fine. 

I tried a few different colors and designs but ultimately liked it all painted the same color to better blend in with the console fabric. There's a layer of 1" thick foam on the console for comfort so I had to raise the remote up with some spacers.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Is it going to be awkward now when we ask to try out your knob?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

never was before.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

that thing is crazy.

how does the infrared "shoot" from the painted surface, to reach the eye inside the deck?

and can this thing be programmed for another device simultaneously, like you have a rear-view cam/DVR system, can you program a few of the buttons to work on a different device?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

you can program it with any IR device you have a remote for. just point the remote at the receiver to program it. 

the thing I like is this opens up the possibility to use a headunit's functions when running digital to a separate DSP and use that DSP's remote for volume control. it'd take some work, but it's totally possible. 

the remote has an IR transmitter that is corded. I just spliced a few feet of 3-conductor wire (only needed 2 conductors) in to it to extend it, and ran the cable up to the headliner in my car. Pointed the emitter toward the deck's sensor and voila. 

It's simple as pie, really. The cool thing is you can program it any way, multiple times. For instance, I initially had it oriented with the large middle button facing toward the deck, but found that I liked to have the two buttons toward the front as my hand rests there more easily and I can better toggle tracks. So, the top two buttons in the center are FWD/REV. The bottom single center button is mute. I may re-program the FWD/REV buttons because I'm finding I like to have my hand resting at a way where the top right corner would be better suited for FWD and the bottom left corner would be better suited for REV.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and OCD prevents anyone from turning it slightly like a 'natural' keyboard, so it accommodates the natural position of the hand, haha..

what I was asking is can this thing do several frequencies at the same time, or are you tied into one frequency?

like, it's on Pioneer remote frequency right now, and you put in a component that runs on Samsung frequency. I want to control both components with different buttons, say left side goes to CD receiver, and right side controls DSP controller commands. this thing shoots down from the headliner at any component, but can it shoot separate frequencies for separate devices?

because that would be nice if you could have the one remote, controlling all the remote devices in the car without reprogramming.

you could even extend it's functionality to X10 type relays, and control various non-car audio related items in the vehicle with it, like a remote fog light/led/neon thing, and outdoor PA, and whatever camera feeds you want to joystick, pan and tilt and ZOOM...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If you're asking can the remote send two different codes at one time: I don't know.
If you're asking if this remote can be programmed to work with different sources: yes.

You'll have to have the source sensor within about +/-60 degrees LoS, IME. Beyond that, it won't work.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*










I want to make sure I understand what you are asking. 

Are you wanting to know if you only use 6 of the 9 perimeter buttons for the headunit, could you use the other 3 buttons for something else in the car? 

If so, that's a good question, one I didn't think much about. What if you could program one of the extra buttons for say a garage door opener, dvd player or something like that. Not sure if it would work but would be cool if it did. As long as it is in range of the IR unit, it might. I'm pretty sure you couldn't program the same button for 2 seperate items.



cajunner said:


> that thing is crazy.
> 
> how does the infrared "shoot" from the painted surface, to reach the eye inside the deck?
> 
> and can this thing be programmed for another device simultaneously, like you have a rear-view cam/DVR system, can you program a few of the buttons to work on a different device?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I see no reason why you cannot program each button for an individual source. The fact that I am able to program it as I would any other universal remote leads me to believe it would work just fine for this purpose.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

that would be great, I figured when the car manufacturer made these they were designed to run on one frequency but the learning circuit and ability to do a range of brands/frequencies is put there by the seller?

it's possible that it's just capable of running one brand at a time, I would be very surprised, now that I've had time to think of what it would take to transmit multiple IR frequencies and to store them for each button.

I just could see an IR re-transmitter as a multi-use unit, since it is now like a car "rotary commander" the way a deck has one, haha...

and there are a lot of car items that could run from their respective remote mount "eye"

I thought of the camera control, but I think you'd have to have some kind of way to switch "source" so the rotary control is able to work with more than one installed accessory at a time.

it would probably take a circuit designer's know how, to do source switching using one of the buttons as an interface.

Anyways, very cool unit, great integration into the car and I hope it stops malfunctioning for you, it looks plenty sturdy and not the kind of thing that falls apart after you throw a 10 lb bag of rice on it...


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bigbubba said:


> I want to make sure I understand what you are asking.
> 
> Are you wanting to know if you only use 6 of the 9 perimeter buttons for the headunit, could you use the other 3 buttons for something else in the car?
> 
> If so, that's a good question, one I didn't think much about. What if you could program one of the extra buttons for say a garage door opener, dvd player or something like that. Not sure if it would work but would be cool if it did. As long as it is in range of the IR unit, it might. I'm pretty sure you couldn't program the same button for 2 seperate items.


that's right.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

some of you guys have been keeping up with my HT progress, so ignore if you don't want to see the same thing again....


for those who haven't, I finally *completed* my HT setup. it's not 100% done, but all the major pieces are in place. here's the rundown...


About 6 years ago my wife and I built a new home. I wired up the bonus room for HT use and it was gonna be awesome! Theeeennnnnn.... the first mortgage payment came in and I realized the HT wasn't going to happen. 

We sold the house a few years later and re-built. I, again, made the bonus room purposed for HT. We moved in last July. Since then I've been saving pennies and going back and forth with gear. Ultimately winding up building my own towers (details are in my HT build thread). In a somewhat rash move, I pulled the trigger on the projector and screen. Then I went selling a ton of stuff to try to recoup the money so my wife wouldn't kill me. 

I'm now almost finished with the room. Speakers are built, amp rack is built, everything is wired up and making music. I still have some things here and there to do. Obviously the screen still needs to be mounted to the wall (110" fixed screen). I need to add acoustic panels here and there. Still need to configure the Rane DSPs and get the sound system EQ'd and all that jazz. etc, etc, etc. But, I can do all that as I go. The important part is that I've finally got all the major pieces to the puzzle. I am pscyched! 

My 3.5 yo has requested Beauty and the Beast as our first movie. I'm looking forward to watching some "daddy" movies with some b-b-b-b-b-b-bass. 

Just wanted to share my excitement. I know there are many guys here who have some killer setups. Glad I'm able to finally join in the ranks of a fellow HT dude. 


Here's the specifics:

Room size: Approx 17x26x8 with 5ft knee-walls.
Source: Oppo BDP-103 (feeds directly in to Rane DSPs). AppleTV or DirecTV feed in to the HDMI input as a 2nd source.
Projector: Epson 8350 (refurb)
Screen: Visual Apex 110" (got a good package deal)
Front L/R Speakers: 3-way Active with Kef concentric and Scan 10" powered off Crown amps and processed with Rane RPM26Z
Additional Processing: Rane RPM88 to process sides, center, and subs
Center: Kef R200c
Surrounds: Kef Q100 on wall-mounts
Subs: JL Audio E112

Amps:

Front Mains: Crown DriveCore XLS2500 (midbass), XLS2000 (midrange), XLS1500 (tweeters)
Center channel: Crown XLS1500, bi-amped
Sides: Crown XLS1500
Subs: Built-in


DIY Amp rack (rpm88 at the bottom isn't shown here):



That's about 5400wrms (@ 4 ohm) for the main 5 speakers. the subs have their own amps built in.


----------



## whoever

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very nice setup Erin!


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sick! Where's the invite to hear and see it?


----------



## ErinH

I'm gonna email them!!!


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll be refreshing my inbox constantly:laugh: 
Seriously tho, how's the tuning process on something like that? Similar to car or easier? I let my pioneer do the autotune and I'm pleased with it but that's a whole different ball game.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very nice


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Geez, that is rediculously awesome. I bet that sound phenomenal.


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

wow that is sick! im jealous. could never do anything like that in my town home lol


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This actually has my wifes approval. Well as long as I don't show her the amp portion. She said we can do this when we own a home


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

yep. just don't' show her the amps and do it anyway.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Neither of the movies you pictured were "Beauty and the Beast." You're a horrible dad. hahaha....That looks awesome. Out of curiosity, is the shape of the room serving some acoustic purpose, or is it just like in the attic?

Nice setup. My "Home Theater" is a 50" Samsung TV and a HK receiver, neither of which has been turned on in like 2 years. Someday I'll upgrade.

Jay


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have been eyeballing the emotiva xpa-5 and its only 1 component so it couldn't be "too" expensive. Granted it only packs the power you have on your center but I think I could be content


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Beauty & the Beast pictures... finally! 

First off, we have 6 can lights total upstairs. Staggered evenly in the room. I removed the front two lights because they washed out the screen when on. The remaining four lights can be left on and dimmed about halfway while providing excellent picture and plenty of light to eat snacks with. And then I can dim them all the way down for 'intense' movie watching. 

lights off:







then with the lights on but dimmed....







removing the front two lights made a large difference in usability with lights on. really very happy with how the room turned out in this regard.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> Out of curiosity, is the shape of the room serving some acoustic purpose, or is it just like in the attic?
> 
> Jay


Just the shape of the room. I didn't want knee walls per se, but that's just how the roof goes and the room wound up having to be. My initial plans for this house consisted of a 22x26x9' room over the living room for HT. but after we got quotes, we had to re-do our plans and that room got scrapped entirely. 




Brian_smith06 said:


> I have been eyeballing the emotiva xpa-5 and its only 1 component so it couldn't be "too" expensive. Granted it only packs the power you have on your center but I think I could be content


yea. I've been wanting one of those for years now. and when it came time to purchase amps, I just wound up falling the way of these Crowns for a multitude of reasons. those XPA-5's have gone up a couple hundred bucks over the last 3 years or so. Emo seems to be increasing their prices a bit here and there. For an all-in-one solution, though, it's hard to beat. But if you have the space and plugs, you can pick up (3) XLS1500's on the used market and have about 1.75x the power of the Emo for a couple hundred less than the XPA-5 gen2. Or new XLS1500's for about the same price.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

gonna carry over my HT talk back to the home audio section so nothing gets lost in between the two threads:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...36-erins-ht-room-real-time-7.html#post2101992


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

since the theme of this build was transparency in the process, I started trying to lay down some of the things I think are paramount in a good sound system. though, I realized it may get lost in this thread so I started a new one:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ers/163914-essentials-sound-quality-imho.html


Some of what was/will be addressed there has been discussed here. But, some hasn't. The goal was to provide a basic understanding of speakers and the important aspects of them, then use that as a building block to discuss my tuning methods and hone in on the important things and lessons learned through my builds/tunes. 

Hope some of you find it helpful in your quest for improving you audio systems; not just car audio systems.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

back to car audio...

I've commented a few times in other threads that I recently scrapped the tune on the system from the midrange & up before the NC meet back in April. I found that after setting time alignment and crossovers that I was really pleased with the result and decided at that point not to do any EQ work to the system and just let it roll.

Since then I've been pretty happy but there were a couple small issues I could pick up on and decided to break out the mic and do some measurements to wrangle those in.

I figured I'd take the time to share the results of a quick tuning session. The following is mid and/or tweeters only. So here we go...

*Tweeter Only:*
Left vs Right. NO EQ. 1/6 Octave.


Ummmm... yea... pretty dang good out the box. I won't be using any EQ on the tweeters. Gotta love good power response. 



*Midrange Only:*
Left vs Right. No EQ. 1/6 Octave.




A bit of a bump around 750hz on the right midrange so I brought that down a couple dB with a Q set at 6. I tried using the standard Q=4.3 (graphic equalizer Q value) but it was too wide. Here are the results with the newly EQ'd right midrange vs no EQ left midrange:






*Mid & Tweeter:*
Here's the combined mid and tweeter response. Only the _right _midrange has EQ applied to it, as per above. 1/6 octave:




Same as above but smoothed to 1/1 octave:







*Comments:*

The purpose of this particular RTA session was to show what the left vs right performance is and try to see what areas needed to be EQ'd. To anyone looking to replicate my "curve" here, I wouldn't do that... not until you understand how I measured this. 

First of all, I wasn't trying to target any curve. I'm just letting the speakers do what they do and I'm trying to eliminate any significant offenders to the response. IE; any large bumps. 

The high frequency roll off is due to the mic aiming; I sit in the car with the seat moved back so I can sweep the head area and I take about 50-100 averages with REW's averaging filter. If I pointed the mic forward, the response above about 5khz wouldn't fall as off quickly. I just know this from doing it both ways enough times that I'm comfortable enough to continue measuring while I'm in the driver's seat. I feel this gives a more accurate result as opposed to being outside of the car. I'm not saying one is right or wrong: my gut just tells me it's better to be in the car. YMMV.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

this would appear to be a place where fuzzy logic could be used, bikinpunk.

the averaging of 100 separate tests, should allow a DSP enough data to form a concise line that we all could use as a definitive, since there really isn't one yet.

the thing I was thinking, when reading your post is that you could have a test area, say a 12" sphere, and the mike moved in finite increments that a software could interpret, and give that definitive response.

Then going further, you could make it automated, where corrections are applied to the curve as you do the mic testing, so that the fuzzy logic gives you the unequivocal, result.

sort of a standard of measure in a reflective zone, something you could call, the Hardaway Circle, or whatever...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

just keep in mind when I say "100 averages", I'm not talking about 100 point-in-space measurements taken and averaged together in the traditional sense. REW allows you to simply record live and simultaneously store a snapshot of measurements as you move the mic. 50 is plenty. So, I shoot for 50 - 100, depending on the head area I'm covering.


----------



## sbaumbaugh

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin,

If you get a chance, a full right side and full left side Fr measurement would be great...

The area between 50-60/ 250 is always an issue, it helps seeing what other people are doing in this area.

Other than that, minimal EQ is always the goal and I'm sure you are happy with those Fr plots...

Thank you again for sharing, as always...


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I probably should download REW and get with the new program, haha...

sounds simple enough, bikinpunk.


looks like what I thought would help, is basically already built into the software.


I just figured that most people, who don't do this sort of thing for a living, aren't always that sure about their spatial averaging, and whether or not their microphone placement instructions are clear enough, or they are diligent enough in following their testing instructions to be comfortable with the results.

As in all more complicated endeavors where simple things can influence and misdirect results, an easy button is appreciated.

If you hadn't set up a measurement station and gotten familiar with your testing do's and don'ts, you may not have had the prerequisite, to fall back on and give you the confidence to present these tutorials that go along with your builds and other posts.


so, thanks for doing the work that ends up making us better at our work, in the hobby.

(I know, it's almost like over-complimenting you at this point, but just grin and bear it..)


----------



## ErinH

sbaumbaugh said:


> Erin,
> 
> 
> 
> If you get a chance, a full right side and full left side Fr measurement would be great...
> 
> 
> 
> The area between 50-60/ 250 is always an issue, it helps seeing what other people are doing in this area.



Check the earlier posts in this thread. Starting around post 4 or 5. I did a "study" on the response below 400hz and have a ton of info on what it looked like and how I tuned it.


----------



## sbaumbaugh

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Will do,

Sorry about that, went through this thread a while back.

Time for a refresher read, hard keeping up with you sometimes...

Thank you Sir,


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No worries. Just trying to save myself some trouble.


----------



## doitor

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

ErinH?
Who the hell is ErinH and what did you do with the world famous bikinpunk?
LOL.

J.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Probably one too many "Bikini punk"s. lol

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



doitor said:


> ErinH?
> Who the hell is ErinH and what did you do with the world famous bikinpunk?
> LOL.
> 
> J.


Danny!? Is that you!?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> Probably one too many "Bikini punk"s. lol
> 
> Jay


we all bumped in to each other when we walked around at the skatepark!


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> we all bumped in to each other when we walked around at the skatepark!


that must have been the disturbance in the force i felt, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.


----------



## alemant

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hi ErinH, before this my answer, i have read all 22 pages!!! some compliments for house and car (and your high skills level), of this last i have the same 4dr but hybrid, i would ask some things...
The PS8 is sell for what reason? i have looking some DSP but i didn't the right for me, but if i have to buy right now, between h800, helix dsp, and the Arc, i'm so direct on to last...

Subs; the hybrid have the rear row some electronics, two inverter DC-AC, one DC-DC (This substitute the alternator), and batteries... 
i want to put the sub on the rear deck, with all custom upholstery, i would use a IB setup, and i see this AE subs, it's really for me...
You have try it AE with Apollo motor?
AE IB15AU and AE IB15HT it's available but what is the best?
The size 15" and 12", i'm not sure too fit on the deck two 15", not for the diameter, but for the dept of magnet.. for insert in the deck the glass it's so narrow... and i have a nightmare if it's not insert on it...
Sorry for my English...I'm Italian...
Alex


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ hey, man, sorry I haven't answered you yet. shoot me a PM and we can chat.




Did one last round of tuning on this before The Vinny next month... will be on travel and won't have time to do much more before. Played around with a few things and ultimately landed on this. This is smoothed to 1/12 octave and I'm very happy with how well the two sides match, but also just how smooth the response is with so little EQ. In total, I have about 5 bands of EQ above 300hz. The parametric is a great thing to have and being able to target specific frequencies in higher resolution than standard 1/3 keeps me from trying to cut multiple bands to fix one problem. And using higher resolution measurements than 1/3 or 1/1 octave allow you to see if the large delta in left/right response is due to a specific area (such as a narrow dip or peak in one side) or if it's a problem over a broader range (such as a crossover out of phase). For example, instead of cutting 630, 800, and 1khz to fix a problem at 730hz, I just set a narrow Q on 730hz and drop it by 5dB. Cleans up the response right away. These kind of high Q peaks can be annoying if a certain instrument that 'lingers' is in the music. Otherwise, these kind of things aren't as bad. But, the point is to pay attention and play around with multiple resolutions to see where the problem is. If you have parametric, don't be afraid to set a specific frequency and set your Q to target an area that a standard graphic EQ won't quite get.





the midbass/sub response isn't included because I'm not concerned with it ATM.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Is there any cheat sheet or rule of thumb to help estimate the Q required? Or pretty much just guess and check?


----------



## lithium

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strakele said:


> Is there any cheat sheet or rule of thumb to help estimate the Q required? Or pretty much just guess and check?


well it probably does require a few attempts to nail down the value you need to use but there is a simple equation for ballparking the value. Q = center frequency / half power bandwidth. 

Q factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Sulley

The steep roll off on the high end.. Is this a function of mic placement/angle again or part of your desired "target curve". 

Just curious as its a nice gradual downward curve up to 10-15k and then drops off pretty quick.


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



stockley.rod said:


> The steep roll off on the high end.. Is this a function of mic placement/angle again or part of your desired "target curve".
> 
> Just curious as its a nice gradual downward curve up to 10-15k and then drops off pretty quick.


From post 535



> The high frequency roll off is due to the mic aiming; I sit in the car with the seat moved back so I can sweep the head area and I take about 50-100 averages with REW's averaging filter. If I pointed the mic forward, the response above about 5khz wouldn't fall as off quickly. I just know this from doing it both ways enough times that I'm comfortable enough to continue measuring while I'm in the driver's seat. I feel this gives a more accurate result as opposed to being outside of the car. I'm not saying one is right or wrong: my gut just tells me it's better to be in the car. YMMV.


----------



## ErinH

strakele said:


> Is there any cheat sheet or rule of thumb to help estimate the Q required? Or pretty much just guess and check?



It's a bit of a stab mixed with experience. I can ballpark a Q to start with and then adjust it if needed. Switching between 1/3 and 1/12 helps me see how much I need to change between a standard 1/3 octave Q (4.3), also. 

This site is great for determining your Q value if you grab your cell and punch the numbers in:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-cutoffFrequencies.htm


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

this thread is chock full of nuggets.

good work, hardaway.




"see what I did there?"


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for sharing that site Erin, that'll save me tons of time and paper...lol


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

awww, man..

nobody calls me out for Hardison, what the hell?

hardaway? come on..


anyways.


----------



## ErinH

It flew right over my head. I thought it was an obscure Penny Hardaway reference. :/


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Kevin K said:


> Thanks for sharing that site Erin, that'll save me tons of time and paper...lol


there's an excel link at the bottom of that page. didn't notice it until yesterday. looks like the same thing, but it might be nice to have saved on your computer if you can't access the site for some reason. 





In other news, when I was driving in to work this morning I came across the 7-drum track that everyone hates. It's a great track for checking tonality consistency because it's the same snare panned between far left and far right. It goes Left, Left-Center, Center-Left, Center, Center-Right, Right-Center, Right. 

In my car I've ALWAYS had a hard time getting the first two and last two hits to sound as if they were spaced out well; most of the time those two groups of sounds wanted to crowd the respective pillar. And AFAIK, it pretty much haunts everyone else as well for the same reason. So, a big smile came across my face when the track came up and the first two and last two hits were separated evenly as the rest were. And the tonality sound practically the same, at least to me at this point. That's like a Cloud 9 accomplishment. Because that track just plain beats me up.


----------



## ErinH

Any Star Wars fans in the house?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm gonna take that as a 'no'. 


Alright.... I'm working on getting some thoughts together for another post about my latest round of measurements. If anyone has any questions that might fall in to this category LMK and I can try to address them in an upcoming post.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Star Wars is great. And that is cool they had/made sounds for the film. That is a big part of what makes the CGI seem real.


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'm gonna take that as a 'no'.


What do you expect? Everyone to love Star Wars, Disney, and audio? Sheesh, what is this world coming to?  

Hope you know I kid. When they re-released the original trilogy to the theaters, I made it a point re-watch all three at Grauman's Chinese Theatre.


----------



## porscheman

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

there was zero cgi in star wars. look at the date, 1978


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Love me some Star Wars


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's right, I just meant the special effects and models used.


----------



## mrpeabody

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Han shot first!


----------



## damonryoung

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Who has my helmet??


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

love Star Wars, that is sick!

Still have 60+ vintage (77-83) and some newer (95-98) figures


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

dang man, thats a sweet story and helmet. prolly worth a LOT of dough.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No telling, man. I'm not a Star Wars nut. But I did think that was really cool.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In car audio news, I've been shopping head units. I really have no qualms with my w535 but I've just been wanting to change it up for the sake of it lately. I've not changed anything in this car in about a year. That's insane. I can't give in to complacency!


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Pioneer NEX unit maybe?

and i'm a huge starwars fan, my uncle took me to the LA premiere of Jedi when i was a kid....


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> In other news, when I was driving in to work this morning I came across the 7-drum track that everyone hates. It's a great track for checking tonality consistency because it's the same snare panned between far left and far right. It goes Left, Left-Center, Center-Left, Center, Center-Right, Right-Center, Right.
> 
> In my car I've ALWAYS had a hard time getting the first two and last two hits to sound as if they were spaced out well; most of the time those two groups of sounds wanted to crowd the respective pillar. And AFAIK, it pretty much haunts everyone else as well for the same reason. So, a big smile came across my face when the track came up and the first two and last two hits were separated evenly as the rest were. And the tonality sound practically the same, at least to me at this point. That's like a Cloud 9 accomplishment. Because that track just plain beats me up.


^ Huge Congrats. You are now a true Jedi Master. 

The 7-strike snare drum track has always been my #1 go-to test track. It's amazing how such a seemingly simple (and much overlooked) track can provide you with extremely critical feedback pertaining to so many vital aspects of accurate reproduction. 

As a drummer back in the day, and my beginnings as a noob car audio nut in the early 90's, I immediately noticed the tonality change and side-bias/staging congestion that so many of us struggle with as the snare drum strikes pan from left to right. And because of this, early on, it was always my main objective to learn how to get this track right. Damnit, I wanted my drum tracks to sound REAL! So I worked towards that goal.

AFAIAC, if you are able to get this one track dialed-in with regard to tonality, realism & impact, & the perfectly even staging/placement, YOU HAVE ARRIVED! IMHO, at that point, your system is about the best it can or will ever be. Combine that with perfect subwoofer integration, and the grin on your face will never be wider. Mad Props, Erin! Enjoy!

EDIT: VERY cool to learn about the Star Wars SoundFX tracks and recordings from White Sands. Thanks for that. As a photographer, it's a magical place as well.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> ...... I've not changed anything in this car in about a year. That's insane. I can't give in to complacency!


Now Erin,that's not totally true.....you did add a sticker. lol


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

it's time to start on the path of high resolution recordings and their bits of hardware needed to make them shine.

a new head unit is only prolonging the inevitable, as the search for ever-decreasing margins of improvement, lead one down the road to higher grade source material.

a large portion of arm and leg, to obtain DAC's and Lightspeed attenuators, or motorized controls, to work with the 384 bit, or 192 bit stuff...

deeply, you must look, young skywalker...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> ^ Huge Congrats. You are now a true Jedi Master.


I wouldn't go THAT far. LOL. It's just getting better. I guess that's what happens when you focus on tuning and quit changing out gear due to boredom. 




bbfoto said:


> EDIT: VERY cool to learn about the Star Wars SoundFX tracks and recordings from White Sands. Thanks for that. As a photographer, it's a magical place as well.


I was out there last week for some testing and had some time to kill thanks to a road block for another agency's testing. So, I went to the rocket museum. Been there a few times over the years and never noticed that Vader helmet. And it's RIGHT by the exit. lol.





Kevin K said:


> Now Erin,that's not totally true.....you did add a sticker. lol


you're right. totally forgot! 





cajunner said:


> it's time to start on the path of high resolution recordings and their bits of hardware needed to make them shine.


Don't even get me started. haha.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quietfly said:


> Pioneer NEX unit maybe?
> 
> and i'm a huge starwars fan, my uncle took me to the LA premiere of Jedi when i was a kid....


actually, that's one option. I really like the look of the 8000NEX from what I've seen online. The reviews for it's screen are excellent thus far. But, I'd like to see it in person as well.

The alpine 957hd has my attention as well.


----------



## mrpeabody

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> actually, that's one option. I really like the look of the 8000NEX from what I've seen online. The reviews for it's screen are excellent thus far. But, I'd like to see it in person as well.


I've played around with one and I definitely dig it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

on-again with considering the carPC as a front-end solution. what's really caught my attention is the Chinese market Android based units that look super-OEM. There are *NUMEROUS* versions of these things on eBay and chinese marketplace sites with different specs but the appearance is practically the same between sellers/types. For example, here's one:
New come Android 4.2 car DVD GPS for Honda Civic (left) 2006 2011 capacitive touch screen 1.6GHz CPU FCC,FDA,CE,ROHS-in Car DVD from Automobiles & Motorcycles on Aliexpress.com

And this is what they all pretty much look like:










If you look around there's also 'generic' double din type Android carPCs ready to go (that don't look OEM like the one above), but for those curious, here's an example:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...etooth-Radio-1-6GB-CPU/612847_1938750018.html



Thing is... I have no idea how reliable these are. I've found some reviews for some here and there on the web. Some reviews are good. Some are bad. Some are OK. Some boot times look very fast via youtube video, and others complain about 25s boot times with another kind. As stated above, there are a lot of different versions available. The issue is with knowing exactly which version a person has because people often fail to provide a link or specs on the one they purchased. 



I like the <$500 price tag for capacitive touch screen and the OEM look... plus, you get one you like and it's a steal. But, like I said, it's a pretty big game of chance. The other option is to look in to DIY'ing my own setup but I really just don't know if I want to deal with that. Some stuff I'm all about DIY'ing. Some stuff I just want turn-key service. I also don't want to get stuck spending more money to get what I want. 

I'll have to keep digging around to see what I can find with these and also consider the other options available via DIY.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I like that thought with the carPC route but I would like also the DSP software to run on it as well as REW. With android as operating system, that limits those functions.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I honestly have zero desire to have that capability on a 7" screen. I had a hard enough time navigating the DSP and RTA programs on a 10" netbook which is why I bought the 11.6" netbook I have now. I essentially want a headunit replacement. If you start going beyond that then you get in to additional complexity which means additional money. I'm happy with everything the way it is; I just want a new headunit or a carPC to replace the front end and perform basic tasks such as playing music, radio and BT. Navigation isn't even a concern for me.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I understand. Android then would be good.
The picture looks right at home in the dash.


----------



## REGULARCAB

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I saw a few similar products running around the Rio forums. They seem pretty nice and there is one (for the rio) on amazon with a good ol generic optical out. I know the Rio guys like them.


----------



## Serieus

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

i saw one of those for the honda fits as well. subbing to see what comes of this in particular, as i'm still undecided what to do in terms of head unit for my fit, and these things are very intriguing


----------



## ErinH

I made Kef's Facebook page today. Sweet!


----------



## papasin

Congrats dude! Someone else I know pretty well had a similar experience.


----------



## charliekwin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> ...Thing is... I have no idea how reliable these are...


Just saw this this morning, but I've got a few thoughts if you're still looking at these things. Before I put a Nexus 7 in my car, I looked at a number of other, err ...less mainstream... Android options and dabbled in a few of them. Two stories: Ainol Fire and Minix G4.

The Ainol Fire is/was a cheapo Chinese market 7" tablet. The specs said it had an IPS screen, it shipped with a crappy TN panel. It felt as flimsy as you'd expect from a $115 device. Came with an old version of Android but had some support in the developer community so at least I could flash something recent on it. Had to modify the build.prop file to make Google think it was a Nexus device so it would work with the Play store. Crashed regularly. I'm not sure if it still works as a tablet, but it's working as a fine dust collector.

Minix G4 is an Android mini-stick. Generally designed to be connected to a TV. I played with it briefly to do some basic setup stuff then went on vacation and forgot about it. The next time I tried to use it, it was 100% dead. Last time I saw it was when I closed the lid on the trash can. At least it was only $45.

Those head units MAY be decent, but I wouldn't bet $350 on it. Assuming that it works without crashing and doesn't go tits up on you after a month, be prepared for the following:

- No future updates to the OS (Jelly Bean 4.2 was released in November of 2012)
- No Play Store access, which means no 3rd party apps or possibly even Google apps (you may be able to force it if you can root the device)
- No to extremely limited dev community support. Suggest looking to see if anyone out there is working on these things, because ROMs from the community are likely to be much better than the manufacturer's
- No root access, which, on a fringe device like this, would be a personal dealbreaker

My three cents.


ETA: The chips these things come with (usually Rockchip 3066) are now pretty dated and weren't exactly barn-burners upon their release to begin with. Combined with 1gb of RAM, they're fast enough to be usable, but just barely. Don't expect great performance.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



papasin said:


> Congrats dude! Someone else I know pretty well had a similar experience.


you made it on the kef website? I was pretty impressed they stuck me on there... a home audio company that doesn't sell car audio anything...


----------



## papasin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> you made it on the kef website? I was pretty impressed they stuck me on there... a home audio company that doesn't sell car audio anything...


Nah, not me...and not on Kef. I'll PM you.


----------



## sqnut

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I made Kef's Facebook page today. Sweet!


Does that pass muster with WAF?  I wish we had competitions here. Congrats for making the KEF page and The Vinny win, that's a tongue twister.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

i dunno erin. that OEM looking unit does look sweet.

maybe you can contact the seller and see if they have any broken ones so you can steal just the dash piece (or source one used+broken for cheap?)

then put your own screen and PC behind it ahahah. that CDrom slot and those buttons look dope. hook them all to a joycon and a regular carPC and you may have something suhweet.

ps; sweet making on the kef facebook lol. wonder what all the die-hard HT people are thinking LOL


----------



## Tsmith

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That is very cool. Congrats Erin!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



charliekwin said:


> Those head units MAY be decent, but I wouldn't bet $350 on it.





req said:


> i dunno erin. that OEM looking unit does look sweet.


After a couple weeks of thinking about my options I boiled them down to doing my own carPC or going with another DD headunit. If you know me, you know that I'm not someone who just buys something right away without spending far too long weighing it out. So, I thought and thought and made spreadsheets listing cost and benefits. Went to the Vinny show and Tim had the new Alpine 957hd deck I was considering. That really got my attention. Had all but decided to just buy that but the cost side of things kept tugging at me. 

I came home Tuesday and boxed up the w535hd. Now this is the part where I should mention that my wife and I sat down and drew up a budget a couple months ago because lately we've been nickel-and-diming ourselves to death and we needed to address it. We've been doing really, really well since then. No 'oh, it's only $10' purchases that sting us in the butt when we realize what we spent at the end of the month. Sooooooo... I'm boxing the headunit up and thinking about the extra $500 or so I'm going to have to save up or somehow generate to fund the 957hd. I sold nearly everything I had worth anything a couple months ago to finish out the HT. Then, I talked some sense in to myself. I know myself well enough to know I might try to make a last ditch effort at making MECA finals this year and that's going to cost me. I know that my wife and I need to save up money to fund our Disney annual passes in December. Spending an exorbitant amount of money on a headunit at this point in time isn't a very smart thing for me. I could 'break even' and get something for the same price as what I sold the w535hd for but I really needed to address how I was going to cover the MECA Finals weekend (and a couple other projects I've got brewing). So, with that, I decided to go low budget and use any additional money I could toward those things instead of pulling that from our bank account. I bought this earlier today:
Alpine CDE-HD149BT CD receiver at Crutchfield.com


Why that? Simple. I paid just a touch over $200 used so that puts about $300 back in my pocket which will cover my entry fees, hotel, and food should I decide/get enough points for MECA finals. It has strong outputs (4vRMS), works with the remote I already own, aux input, nice display, and handles iPod well, in addition to having BT streaming (I don't really use BT for calls). It has all the things I really want and use, as opposed to a whole bunch of stuff I never use. It's not the ideal solution (that would be something much more costly) but I'm not giving up anything in sound quality and I put a wad of cash in my pocket for use later. I guess, if anything, you'd call it the responsible decision... and one that is guilt-free.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think you made a wise decision.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yea. I feel better about it, I know that.

For a couple months now I've been wanting to play with Arduino because there are a lot of things I can it can help me do (from controlling various sources as a remote to teaching my daughter basics of logic). I've decided to take some of the $300 saved per the above and buy a starter kit. There are NUMEROUS kits abound on the 'net. So far the one that most has my attention is this guy:
Amazon.com: Arduino Arduino Uno Ultimate Starter Kit + LCD Module -- Includes 72 page Instruction Book: Computers & Accessories

I figure it'll help ME learn how to code and be a good basis for understanding the process so I can implement some cool stuff down the line.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

it would be nice if Kef would make a few drivers available for car audio enthusiasts, even if they couldn't sign on for a full product line and several different sizes.

good work on the facebook, Erin.

did you see the edit?

they called it very cool DIY and then very cool again, then redacted.

haha...

maybe they don't want to encourage the DIY crowd...


----------



## pocket5s

Wonder of they've seen his home towers


----------



## ErinH

They have, indeed.


----------



## Babs

cajunner said:


> it would be nice if Kef would make a few drivers available for car audio enthusiasts...



Agreed. Illusion appears to have about the only point-source coax out there small enough for a front-stage. 

Erin I think the modest Alpine will serve well I bet. All your system really needs is strong clean signal to feed the processor after all. 

Ditto on Disney. Kiddies do change priorities for sure. It'll be worth seeing the excitement on your little one's face. That's priceless.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Definitely in for your thoughts on the new Alpine


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Why that? Simple. I paid just a touch over $200 used so that puts about $300 back in my pocket which will cover my entry fees, hotel, and food should I decide/get enough points for MECA finals. It has strong outputs (4vRMS), works with the remote I already own, aux input, nice display, and handles iPod well, in addition to having BT streaming (I don't really use BT for calls). It has all the things I really want and use, as opposed to a whole bunch of stuff I never use. It's not the ideal solution (that would be something much more costly) but I'm not giving up anything in sound quality and I put a wad of cash in my pocket for use later. I guess, if anything, you'd call it the responsible decision... and one that is guilt-free.


I'm proud to say I played a part in this  



Babs said:


> Erin I think the modest Alpine will serve well I bet. All your system really needs is strong clean signal to feed the processor after all.


This could be one of those times that someone states that all Head Units sound the same...... 

Sorry....just couldn't help myself....... 

I do agree completely with what Babs stated.


----------



## ErinH

Well, another reason that I'm glad I decided not to buy something more expensive... 

My passenger side door lock finally called it quits yesterday. It had been giving me problems the past couple weeks. My wife drove my car to work the other night. Had some trouble with it. She didn't realize it didn't shut all the way when she was leaving (since it friggin' broke) and as she was making a turn out of her work's parking lot... ta-daaaaaa... it opened right up. Her co-worker held the door closed the duration of the drive home. LOL! 
Being the awesome wife she is, she stopped at wal-mart for string... and tied it down so she could make the rest of the drive after she dropped off her co-worker. You can imagine she had some words to say when she got to the house. 

Called around. $250 to replace it. Eff that. Took the door panel off and realized I can do this pretty easily myself. An hour or so later I had a new part ordered for $56. 

Part to blame:











Setup until the replacement piece gets here. People gon' be hatin. 

I REALLY hope this bungee cord holds up.


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Lmao......


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Lets hope no one takes advantage of the unlocked door to relieve Erin of all his hard work. 

I hate replacing latches.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm not worried about that happening. My car is only parked at completely safe places. Anyone who tries to steal anything from a car at my work?... Well, I'll just say it was nice knowing you. 

Besides, the part will be in Wednesday.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Ditto on Disney. Kiddies do change priorities for sure. It'll be worth seeing the excitement on your little one's face. That's priceless.


Lol.... Their kid had very little impact on the annual Disney fund.....


----------



## ErinH

slade1274 said:


> Lol.... Their kid had very little impact on the annual Disney fund.....



Lol. You know me well, my friend. 

Speaking of which, did you make the recent 24 hour session?


----------



## bertholomey

slade1274 said:


> Lol.... Their kid had very little impact on the annual Disney fund.....



Well played! ?


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nah- last year wasn't as fun in application than concept. Too damn crowded with "young adults" trying to prove something. Also- didn't pony up for the passes this year.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



slade1274 said:


> Nah- last year wasn't as fun in application than concept. Too damn crowded with "young adults" trying to prove something. Also- didn't pony up for the passes this year.


I think Lindsey and some friends are going to go next year. I guess that's the trade off for me attending Jason's GTG that he doesn't know he's going to have next Spring.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strakele said:


> Definitely in for your thoughts on the new Alpine


TBH, I'm not sure what there will be to say. At this point I just needed something budget friendly that does what I need. AFAIK, it uses the same pre-amp as my w535hd so I'm good there. As long as it's similar or better than the 9886/9887 in iPod control, then I'm good. What helps is I'm a shuffler. I put the iPod on shuffle and just roll through songs like that, so I rarely seek out a specific artist/album/song which makes navigating the menu structure easier. 

I'll toss it on the bench, though, and check it's output voltage, though.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'll toss it on the bench, though, and check it's output voltage, though.


I really gots to get me a 12V bench setup.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> I really gots to get me a 12V bench setup.


Just get a used car battery that still holds a charge and a trickle charger. That's what I use


----------



## ErinH

Yep. I used to use an old lawn mower battery. 

I also bought a 12v 6 amp power supply for this kind of stuff.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow that shows great discretion. I have very little of that... what i do have is a Irish-German wife with a atomic temper, who double checks the banks on their reconciling of the accounts ( and has caught mistakes more than a few times), and FEAR, a huge amount of it. So that keeps me in check most of the time. Though i'm really leaning towards that carpc from e3io....


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Yep. I used to use an old lawn mower battery.
> 
> I also bought a 12v 6 amp power supply for this kind of stuff.


Actually, this is the one I bought:
Pyramid - PS14KX - 12 Amp Power Supply

It's a 12 amp, 12v supply. Perfect for bench testing headunits/dsps, etc.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

discretion?!

ErinH has had how many different head units in the last 3 years?

It's great that we get to 'review' all of them through his eyes, but I fear this last piece is going to be in for a shorter time, based on his access, his concession to the higher quality decks with which he's had some time, and the need to upgrade on a regular basis, even when it becomes a lateral move or downgrade, as in this instance.

If he says the deck is just as clean an output as anything else, and at least as good as his recent 535, then needs to be sure, we may get treated to a comparison with graphs and notes, lol...


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> TBH, I'm not sure what there will be to say. At this point I just needed something budget friendly that does what I need. AFAIK, it uses the same pre-amp as my w535hd so I'm good there. As long as it's similar or better than the 9886/9887 in iPod control, then I'm good. What helps is I'm a shuffler. I put the iPod on shuffle and just roll through songs like that, so I rarely seek out a specific artist/album/song which makes navigating the menu structure easier.
> 
> I'll toss it on the bench, though, and check it's output voltage, though.


Idk how that preamp compares to the one in the 9887, but I'd certainly be interested to know, for obvious reasons


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cajunner said:


> ErinH has had how many different head units in the last 3 years?


yea... but I've also had the w535hd for over a year. so, that drastically cuts in to your 3 year margin. if you wanted a more tantalizing number, you should've chosen 2 years.  





cajunner said:


> discretion?!
> 
> his concession to the higher quality decks with which he's had some time


that's incorrect. the only 'higher quality' I've really ever referenced is simply pre-amp voltage. outside of that, all my purchases have been based entirely on aesthetics/GUI. No one makes the perfect headunit. And I didn't want to fork over the money to make my own.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strakele said:


> Idk how that preamp compares to the one in the 9887, but I'd certainly be interested to know, for obvious reasons


No need to wait... if you don't like the 9887, just go ahead and buy the 149bt. 

Every single alpine I've bought and measured, that claimed 4v output, have ALL done the same pre-amp voltage and shown no clipping at max volume. 4.23vRMS, IIRC. That's all the way back to the 9813, 9886 (the brother to your 9887), d310, w535, s920, etc, etc. That's why I trust alpine's numbers.

Now, other companies... claiming 5v... some of them don't even reach PEAK 5v unless you max out all the settings. 

I'll post up if the 149bt is different than the others, but I don't expect it to be.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> yea... but I've also had the w535hd for over a year. so, that drastically cuts in to your 3 year margin. if you wanted a more tantalizing number, you should've chosen 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that's incorrect. the only 'higher quality' I've really ever referenced is simply pre-amp voltage. outside of that, all my purchases have been based entirely on aesthetics/GUI. No one makes the perfect headunit. And I didn't want to fork over the money to make my own.


just seems like you've been around a bunch of higher end stuff, and your explanation/reasoning for this latest equipment acquisition is based on a small amount of savings, and a large amount of rationalization.

you make pretty good money, that home system is off the chain, (wow, what an over-used phrase) and your car system has been-

"tits?"

for a while... (trying to throw in some colloquialisms, you know) and the only thing left in "rational" terms, and rationale, (see what I did there) is to swap out the decks.

It's a pleasure to watch, and you've already been through a couple of "burnt-out" sequences, in your slow slide into car audio depravity...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

ebbs and flows.


I get less excited about gear than I do about tuning. that's where the enjoyment (and sometimes hatred) comes in to play. I like that aspect and I actually would rather help someone else tune their setup than deal with mine sometimes. 

I'm weird about headunits, though. If I have to interact with it directly daily then I want certain things. But, with all the new headunits coming out, they all have features that I could really care less about (ie; really, why do I need to log in to facebook from my phone?). I wanted a nicer looking DD headunit but I realize I'm paying a lot for crap I don't want and one thing I do want. So, we'll see how going back to a single din fares. I need the money more than I need a DD screen that does the same thing functionally as this single din.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> ebbs and flows.
> I actually would rather help someone else tune their setup than deal with mine sometimes.


Considering my plethora of strange gear going in, and some first attempt coming with the pillars, I'll take you up on that. 

But yeah I'd guess you've surpassed that point where you're tuning ability can make best of about any decent gear combination, so long as you can work the freq's, TA and levels.

The 149BT looks like about as good as you'd need with ability to kill the internal amp, typical 24bit D/A, and I guess reading your iPod digitally. Luckily about any of the "good" upper end units do this, so for any external processor scenario, they'd suffice nicely.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I get less excited about gear than I do about tuning. that's where the enjoyment (and sometimes hatred) comes in to play. I like that aspect and I actually would rather help someone else tune their setup than deal with mine sometimes.
> 
> 
> I need the money more than I need a DD screen that does the same thing functionally as this single din.


the funny thing about cutting the mustard, is that once it's cut, you have to cut it again, haha...

I find it funny that money is a consideration for you based on your ability to acquire things.

Obviously we are missing a lot, like how you got Kef R500 drivers, or the Klippel fell into your lap, or other things that stay hidden from view but dropping down from the dual din to a plain deck on account of saving money just seems like a concerted effort based on some friction with the missus.

And that's fine too, it makes for more realistic thread decoration, haha...

anyways, this is a full disclosure build and you will tell us if there's any difference in sound quality moving between sources, other than just voltage levels, right?

subjective impressions? all of that?


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> No need to wait... if you don't like the 9887, just go ahead and buy the 149bt.
> 
> Every single alpine I've bought and measured, that claimed 4v output, have ALL done the same pre-amp voltage and shown no clipping at max volume. 4.23vRMS, IIRC. That's all the way back to the 9813, 9886 (the brother to your 9887), d310, w535, s920, etc, etc. That's why I trust alpine's numbers.
> 
> Now, other companies... claiming 5v... some of them don't even reach PEAK 5v unless you max out all the settings.
> 
> I'll post up if the 149bt is different than the others, but I don't expect it to be.


If it's the same preamp as the 9887 with some flashier features it's hard to justify since what I have works just fine for what I need. I don't really know what I'm hoping for honestly.. something more than "it's the same as what I have except newer and has Bluetooth." Seems like the only real improvement comes from the old units with the external power supplies. 

I'd kinda like a change, but it has to be worth it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

does the 9887 extract ipod digitally? IIRC, it's the 'fullspeed'; no USB, which means no digital extraction. if that matters, of course.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

IPOD SQ absolutely matters (only thing I use, 99% of time) and yes, the 9887 is the fullspeed connection with a proprietary connector to the HU, not USB.


----------



## ErinH

Well, see!? There you go! .


----------



## ErinH

149bt on the bench. Full tilt volume (35/35) results in no clipping. ~4vrms.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sweet!!!


----------



## SQram

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> 149bt on the bench. Full tilt volume (35/35) results in no clipping. ~4vrms.


Just out of curiosity, how to you know the H/U is not clipping without a scope?


----------



## ErinH

I've got a scope. Just not pictured.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I've got a scope. Just not pictured... Duh


Edited lol 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, how about a few updates...

First off, my door now shuts.  
The part came in yesterday and took about 30 minutes to get in place. I felt pretty awesome after being able to save $200. Between that and the dryer repair I did a couple weeks ago, I'm considering becoming a handyman. As long as the problem can be googled, that is. 





In car audio news I've had a bit more time with the cda-hd149bt and as with anything new, there are pros and cons. Some of mine are...
Pros:

Good, solid 4vRMS output
Display is easily visible during day
You can actually navigate ipod menus with the volume/play buttons. It's not at all to the level of navigation the p99 has, BUT, it's still pretty cool. Note: This headunit doesn't come with a remote. The particular one I'm using is one I keep around: RUE-4202, iirc.
Navigation of ipod is pretty easy. When you bring up a folder you can simply scroll through the list or by pushing the 'band' button, you call up the letter search which makes life quicker for lengthy folders.

Cons:

So far, none, really. At this point, the cons are simply certain features this headunit doesn't have and were acceptable at the time of purchase (ie; doesn't come with a remote, only has a single USB input, stupid source button being huge, etc). But, again, you read the specs and look at pictures and you know this. I've not ran in to anything otherwise that has really bothered me.




Arduino Project!? ...
In other news, I finally bit the bullet on ordering a bunch of Arduino gear. A higher-end starter kit, and a whole lot of jumper cables. I've never really done coding outside of simple 'if' statements in Excel so I've been apprehensive about going down this path. That said, there are a LOT of things I'd like to try and it seems to be the way to get them done. 

One particular example I'd like to pursue after I get some experience with Arduino is to build an RF or BT remote to interface with Alpine headunits. The alpine RF remote I bought last year is garbage and I hate steering wheel controls. For comps/demos, I think it would be pretty sweet to have someone just be able to rock a wireless remote in their lap or from the console that doesn't need line of sight like IR does. Without boring folks with details, what I'm considering is to use either a touch screen like this:
2.8 TFT Touch Shield for Arduino w/Capacitive Touch ID: 1947 - $49.95 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits









or a capacitive touch keypad like this:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12017










These would be used to control the source. Additionally, I may try to incorporate a physical volume knob. I'll just see how it goes.

I think a lot of guys I know in this hobby are like me; sometimes it's less about the music and more about the 'tinker' aspect and this project is much more of a tinker driven goal that will have some cool factor to it. Hey, maybe even I get a decent setup going I can produce some for others. 

Given this is quite a task, I may still hardwire a remote in place to get me through IASCA finals for the "ergonomics" aspect, but I'll pursue this project until I realize I can't do it with my limited skill set or realize there's just no point. 

/


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Actually, this is the one I bought:
> Pyramid - PS14KX - 12 Amp Power Supply
> 
> It's a 12 amp, 12v supply. Perfect for bench testing headunits/dsps, etc.



I searched ebay for a while until I came across mine. Its a stout 75amp 13.8vdc power supply that I want to say I payed under $150 for....maybe $100 bucks. It's been great for testing amplifiers as well since it's got enough juice.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> I searched ebay for a while until I came across mine. Its a stout 75amp 13.8vdc power supply that I want to say I payed under $150 for....maybe $100 bucks. It's been great for testing amplifiers as well since it's got enough juice.


For my car I have an Iota 55amp. And if I ever want to test an amplifier, I'll use that. But I use the little pyramid for quick bench testing because it's muuuuch more convenient. lol


----------



## Darkrider

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> For my car I have an Iota 55amp. And if I ever want to test an amplifier, I'll use that. But I use the little pyramid for quick bench testing because it's muuuuch more convenient. lol


I feel like such a neanderthal. I use a couple of extra car batteries.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> In car audio news I've had a bit more time with the cda-hd149bt and as with anything new, there are pros and cons. Some of mine are...
> Pros:
> 
> Good, solid 4vRMS output
> Display is easily visible during day
> You can actually navigate ipod menus with the volume/play buttons. It's not at all to the level of navigation the p99 has, BUT, it's still pretty cool. Note: This headunit doesn't come with a remote. The particular one I'm using is one I keep around: RUE-4202, iirc.
> Navigation of ipod is pretty easy. When you bring up a folder you can simply scroll through the list or by pushing the 'band' button, you call up the letter search which makes life quicker for lengthy folders.
> 
> Cons:
> 
> So far, none, really. At this point, the cons are simply certain features this headunit doesn't have and were acceptable at the time of purchase (ie; doesn't come with a remote, only has a single USB input, stupid source button being huge, etc). But, again, you read the specs and look at pictures and you know this. I've not ran in to anything otherwise that has really bothered me.



When you search for an artist/album/whatever on the iPod, then search for another, does it always start at A or does it go back to wherever you left off?


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

its funn that you are going that route erin. ive got the wireless control working great with my hand held keyboard - but ive got no steering wheel controls lol.

i plan to have mine figured out in a few days. 

keep up the tinkering! that hand held LCD looks sweet.


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## ErinH

strakele said:


> When you search for an artist/album/whatever on the iPod, then search for another, does it always start at A or does it go back to wherever you left off?



If you push the return button it goes back to where you left off. 

If you push the volume knob (which is the source search) it starts over at the top menu. 

If you power the car down and come back you can only start at the top menu again. 


If I find the time this weekend I'll try to do a quick iphone video to demonstrate and throw it up here.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Does the return button work after you've listened to a couple songs, or only while you're still 'searching'?

Just wanting to know if I search for Megadeth, listen to 2 songs, then want to listen to Metallica, would I have a way to start at the "M's" instead of "A's".

Thanks


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## ErinH

It works while you're in the folder. 

So in your example you hit return and it takes you back to the previous menu. You can return all the way out to the top menu.


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Gray, here's a quick video I shot while waiting for my daughter's slush at Sonic. 

Hopefully this answers your question better. 






In case you want a direct link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdJ-F7Q1PNo


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## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In other news...

Arduino time!










Had a chance to do a couple tutorials. My daughter helped me set up the RGB LED one.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks man. That's nice. With the older ones, it starts every search at the top level menu, no matter what. 

Looks like it isn't _quite_ as fast, but not bad. 

Who signed off on making the CDA-117 only light up blue? I think that one looks better than the newer 149 with the huge source button. Meh... can't have everything I guess.

Assuming there isn't really any difference sound-wise from the 535?


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## ErinH

It's actually pretty fast. When I was taking the video it seemed like it was slow in that initial return. But otherwise I haven't noticed it being slow before then. 

I agree the stupid source button is huge. And annoying. But that's just the way it is. Can't have it all I suppose. 

No sound difference to me from the w535.


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## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Tuning tips that might be worthwhile...


*Just a spoonful of sugar...*

At the Vinny I got some good feedback from the David Hogan. Hogan is probably one of the best critical listeners I've ever met. Not only does he give poignant critiques, but he also provides excellent suggestions on how to improve the sound. 

He gave me a couple pointers here and there on my sheet (which I've linked at the bottom of this post). I had a few minutes last night to implement those suggestions. 1dB cut between 1-1.6khz on the right. A 1dB cut at 400-500hz on both sides. Saved the result. Toggled between my 'Vinny' setting and the newly updated one. While not a 'night and day' difference, it's still pretty apparent the focus tightened up. And when it did, there was more detail in the tracks I used to compare the tunes (Natalie Merchant - _Wonder _& Depeche Mode - _Enjoy The Silence_. IMO, you can't expect to make little changes have a great impact right away. Usually these kind of minute changes with a solid affect happen when you've gotten pretty far down in the tune (or assuming you already have an excellent baseline). If you have a hodge-podge setup and T/A, phase, levels are out of whack then adjusting a single dB here or there isn't really going to do much. It's like adding $1 to $1million. But, once you get to a point where your setup is blending well and things are pretty well tuned - not perfect, but good - these kind of changes can really help out.




*Sub/Midbass tuning. Remember: It's all about the frequency wavelength.*

Now, here's another thing that's quite interesting. I dumped my EQ settings on my midbass and subs a few weeks ago. I realized that the way I had gone about EQ'ing them was backwards. I had EQ'd each individually. What I should have been doing was looking at them together. Why? Wavelength. You've surely heard about staggering midbass/subs to help smooth the response. It's nothing new. The problem is, when you EQ a driver by itself in this passband you're not accounting for the interaction and influence of the other driver. That can both hurt and help you. The key is, you don't know unless you evaluate the system as a whole. Midbass to midbass this is more important in the entire passband. Sub to midbass, this is really only important at and just around the crossover (maybe 1/2 octave +/- the crossover point). 

So, I measured the response of the subs + midbasses. I then measured the response of each midbass by itself and subs by itself. I did this last bit so I could better analyaize the influence of each speaker. For example, if I had a bump at 150hz, was it a single driver problem or both? For the most part, what I found was the response was pretty nominal, *when evaluating at 1/24 octave*.* I only had to make a few adjustments here or there. 
* using 1 octave or 1/3 octave smoothing will cause you to fix things you can't repair and stuff that doesn't need repair. I'd suggest only using 1/3 or 1 octave smoothing for midrange frequencies and above (namely, tweeter).

Then I played the sub and evaluated the crossover point. But to do this, I went back to my phase adjustments. There's no sense trying to EQ something if the phase is out of whack at the crossover. Using the method I laid out here (Subwoofers And Time Alignment), I focused on measuring the response while adjusting the actual phase on my Helix DSP. 

If you don't have a phase delay, just use time alignment; it's the same thing. The phase adjustments just allow you to do T/A in larger steps. To have an idea how much T/A you need for the sub/midbass adjustment you can use this site:

Use this link to calculate the relationship between phase angle/frequency/time:
Phase angle calculation time delay frequency calculate phase lag time shift between voltage difference time of arrival ITD oscilloscope measure two signals formula angle current voltage phi phase shift time difference - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

For example: to adjust the phase at the crossover point of 80hz by 15 degrees you'd need to delay in time 0.50ms. 

This is what's important to understand: 
15 degrees at 80hz requires 0.50ms... Think about that... that's a _big _number in time for such a small delta in degrees. To put it in perspective, think back to the time where you were adjusting your T/A values on your midranges to line them up. Typically, 0.5ms can mean the difference in too far right or too far left; you definitely move a lot of space laterally between midranges with 0.50ms. You typically moved in those 0.03ms steps and worked within a small window of probably 0.20ms to really tighten up your center focus. 

Now compare that to when you were doing T/A on your sub by a measly 0.03ms and couldn't get things to sound right. *It's because you need to adjust the delay for LOW frequencies by a LOT more to get the phase to swing just a little bit, as compared to a tweeter who's phase at 2khz can be a full 360deg out with that same 0.5ms.*


Make sense? Good! 

So, if you want to really adjust your subwoofer, I'd suggest doing so in 0.5ms chunks. Or, even using 2ms chunks (about 45 degrees at 60hz). Adjust incrementally until you've gotten to the point where smaller steps will help. Then switch over to 0.50ms steps. 

I did the above, again with the Phase adjustment on my Helix (and again, this is the same as using time delay in large chunks). I put the mic at the seat and swept. Saved. Adjusted phase again. Swept. Saved. Rinse, wash, repeat. On the RTA screen, I zoomed in so I could focus on the 30-200hz area and I focused solely on the crossover point. I found the phase adjustments that got me the highest SPL. Then I went outside the crossover point and looked at how that blended with the rest of the system. 

After picking the phase angles I wanted to use, I swept the system with an impulse. I then looked at the group delay for the 'better' phase angles just to see if anything was out of whack. To my surprise, the GD was very benign. When I compared the new phase setting vs my old one with EQ it was a huge difference in smoothness. 

It's worth noting that, again, thanks to the long wavelength of low frequencies, you're likely not going to get the sub in phase at the crossover AND frequencies outside of this. In my case, I just worked with the trade-off. I took the setting that provided me a high SPL at 70hz (my crossover point) and also good SPL below and above that. Make no mistake, you WILL run in to this same issue. Regardless of your crossover point. More so if you overlap; less so if you underlap. But you'll see the trade offs.

Now, back to EQ. If you read the scoresheets I posted, you'll notice a couple comments regarding the low frequency response. Matt Roberts made a note of 30hz being out of phase. He was dead on. I noticed this in the GD data but at the time just dealt with it. What the culprit is was a low frequency boost I had; the boost was set at the lowest frequency I could and ran to about 35hz; this was just an attempt to add some extra low end. What happened, however, was a phase null at the seat. When I dropped that particular boost from my tune, the null practically went away.





I'll try to update this thread with some graphs when I get the chance to illustrate just what I'm talking about with regard to the frequency response and group delay results.


Score sheets in PDF format:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/la9xj8spfnxr7uz/Vinny 2014.pdf


Hope this helps some folks out. The most important factor here is realizing the relationship of frequency to time/phase. And how you waste your time (no pun) trying to adjust subwoofer delay in very small increments.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll also add this:
You don't have to have an RTA to adjust the subwoofer delay in the manner I discussed above. It's helpful because it takes a lot of guesswork out of the equation. But, simply, you can play a test tone at the crossover frequency and adjust delay until you have the highest SPL by ear. Listen for the bass to be up front. You'll likely find an area within about 45 degrees that seems to be in phase. To help really narrow it down, go outside of the passband to your midbass by one tone (ie; if you cross your subs/midbass at 60hz, go up to 80hz) and repeat the steps to fine tune the delay. You should now have your sub DIALED.

FWIW, I can now make my dash mat move at the front of my dash. Before when it was less in phase, it couldn't do that.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You Sir have consistently learned over these years and progressed not only with your installs, but your skills. Salute! If one goes back and reads some of your very early car audio stuff on 8thcivic, then read that post above just now. You ain't even the same human! I commend your continual advancement.


----------



## RocketBoots

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'll also add this:
> FWIW, I can now make my dash mat move at the front of my dash. Before when it was less in phase, it couldn't do that.


Please forgive me if you addressed this; I have not read all 26 pages of your thread. I _have_ read many pages of it, as well as some of the off-shoots, and found many benefits as I currently tune my system.

With the sub being the farthest away, do you regard that as the reference point for your time alignment?? So, if you changed the phase angle of the sub, so that it's much more up front, and your dash mat moves, will you have to adjust the rest of the drivers to the new reference point? Or did you consider the minimal group delay changes 'good enough' that you wouldn't re-tune the rest of your system? BTW I don't really know what I'm talking about...

I've been playing around with my system, and gotten the drivers more in-phase. The results are... well... very nice.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

think about your question and think about the purpose of time delay.

not being smart... just saying... think about the goal. 

I know what you're asking, though. People will often put "the furthest speaker" from them at 0ms and then delay everything else from there. Thus, that's the "reference". The problem with that is it's a single point in space which doesn't represent the phase relationship between drivers because the wavelength varies. 

The site I have linked in my signature does two different calculations for deriving time delay: 1) simple - basic measurement based calculations which then puts the 0 put at the furthest physical speaker or 2) a crossover based method which accounts for the wavelength of the speaker being played. Both are really a way to help get you started and for the high frequency drivers it works pretty well. Only a small bit of massaging is required to really fine tune it. BUT, for low frequency drivers, the crossover method is the closer way of getting a valid value... but it also assumes you have the correct polarity set already (crossover slopes and 0/180 polarity) and then it just adjusts the T/A values to shift the waveform so each aligns a bit more cohesively. Again, it's not a one-fits-all solution; it wasn't intended to be. But, it's an exercise in illustrating the impact of wavelength and it's relationship to time which is phase. 


*What is needed to be understood is in a properly set up system there would be no "reference", per se.* Setting a speaker to "0" and aligning all the speakers based on that doesn't mean success. Even though my site using method 1 above does that, it's not supposed to be the stopping point as mentioned above. *So, disregard the notion of a single 'reference driver'.* The goal is to have all drivers matched in time to the best of your ability so that what you hear is a single, cohesive wavefront. *The 'reference' would be the goal. Where the goal is to mimic one speaker playing all frequencies from the same point source. *No separation in response patterns (ie; a smooth pick up from mid to tweeter), no delay of one speaker's sound arriving to you before/after another*.
*this is directly proportional to the frequency response of your system. if there's a delay, there's a null. forget absolute numbers like 0 degrees or 1.0ms. those are just a means to an end. your goal with time alignment/phase is to set them so the different speakers on a given side (ie; left or right side in stereo) are all playing seamlessly together enough so there is no delineation in sound; which can be measured as a product of SPL. 


I hope that clears things up. If not, lmk.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This would be the point where I break out and again mention the fact that no matter where your sub is placed physically in your car, you will still have out of phase characteristics relative to you. You just can't avoid that; it's an issue because the wavelength is soooo long. While you may be completely in phase at your crossover, you will be some degree out of phase somewhere else in the response. And vice versa.

For example, if you cross your midwoofers to your sub at 80hz (no gap, no overlap) and you are practically dead on in phase (you've achieved max SPL and the sub blends excellently with the midbass) you will still have a lowered SPL below and/or above that crossover point (the degree and frequency(s) will obviously vary between settings such as crossover characteristics, & environment). The problem then becomes determining if that's a trade-off you can accept. Or, is being a touch out of phase (maybe as little as 30 degrees) at the crossover point worth it to be more in phase at, say, 40hz? This is going to depend on your setup variables. 


And this isn't just an issue for people with rear-mounted subs. I know people running up front subs with this problem. So, just because you have your sub up front doesn't mean you aren't subject to the same issue. It's still a matter of getting the phase set up correctly. I have this same problem with my front mounted midbasses if I turn the sub off and don't use a high pass filter on my midbasses. In that case, I STILL have an out of phase null at my seat that causes an impact on the seat. You literally think there is a sub punching you in the back... with no sub on! There wasn't much I could do. The only options were to delay one mid relative to the other so the null moved to a point that it wasn't as noticeable... but by doing that I messed up the focus (ie; the 'center' in this passband moved toward one side or the other) or to add another driver in the mix that could combat this null and take the focus off that null. Therefore, the subwoofer was used. While the impact was up front with no sub (and it was nothing like the impact I have now with the subs on and dialed in well), there was a lot of impact at the seat, too, that took the focus _away _from what I had going on up front. It took me about 3 years before this finally friggin' clicked, so hopefully those of you who have noticed this can stop chasing your tail.


All that said, there are potential ways to correct this issue. I'm pursuing a couple. Nothing crazy... but nothing I'm going to let out of the bag just yet because I want to have time to gather my thoughts and do some testing before I open my mouth on something that may not work or be practical.


----------



## RocketBoots

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You are being smart, smart ass  But that's a good thing.

If I'm reading this correctly, I think I understand your statements. In some ways, the 'reference point' is YOU. You want the proper phase hitting you, the listener. Starting with the farthest driver, say a sub, seems like a means to an end. But then, isn't it all sort of relative? Meaning, the phase problem arises from having multiple drivers, and a single point source would produce the most in-phase wavefront possible?

Also, due to all the differing frequencies and wavelengths, wouldn't perfect phase be nearly impossible??

Not trying to put you on the spot as a professor; just wanting to discuss some of the rubbish jumbling around in my head at the moment.

So, then, what have you found to be the best way to achieve correct phase for the whole system?? In terms of tuning.

In my own experience so far, I've tried TA with measured values, and I haven't been able to achieve a system that's overall mostly phase-correct.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



RocketBoots said:


> You are being smart, smart ass  But that's a good thing.


No. I'm really not. I posed the question to get you to think about the situation a bit more. 




RocketBoots said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, I think I understand your statements. In some ways, the 'reference point' is YOU.



Not in some ways. The ONLY way. Do you care what your backseat thinks of the sound? (that was a smart-alec answer) 





RocketBoots said:


> But then, isn't it all sort of relative?


sure.... relative... to _you_, the listener.




RocketBoots said:


> Also, due to all the differing frequencies and wavelengths, wouldn't perfect phase be nearly impossible??


Yep. That's why I went on that long spill about trade-offs. But, there are people doing crazy things.




RocketBoots said:


> So, then, what have you found to be the best way to achieve correct phase for the whole system?? In terms of tuning.
> 
> In my own experience so far, I've tried TA with measured values, and I haven't been able to achieve a system that's overall mostly phase-correct.


This whole build log has been focused on me discussing the various ways I've tuned my car and the pitfalls along the way. At this point, the latest posts cover what works for me, in terms of tuning. It's still an ongoing process.


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## RocketBoots

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Forgot to mention, I tried TA'ing to my subs using the method described in the thread 'time alignment with your ears', or something like that, using the doppler effect, which led me to a post from you, and one other, about doing a similar thing with an reverse phase signal, and got pretty decent results. Better than measuring distances. But not night/day to what I had before, which I got from just trial/error, and, as you say, chasing my tail.


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## ErinH

As long as you are happy. My purpose to all these posts isn't to act high and mighty by any means. I'm just trying to relay what I've done and learned in hopes that people will benefit from it.


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## RocketBoots

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No no, I'm NOT happy, LOL. My reference is home audio, and my car is not even close. I just find it difficult to sort through everything sometimes and figure out what is important, and what is trivial. What to maximize, and what doesn't matter. Sometimes I think I lose the forest for the trees. Right now, I'm really just trying to dial in levels and phase. Your recent comments about sub/midbass tuning got me to thinkin is all...

And I've gained tremendous benefit from your posts!! :2thumbsup:


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I know this isn't the right thread but yes, Erin's got me certainly thinking as well in the other SQ thread about TA and phase just in themselves. Gears turning just in aligning tweets with mids, tweet w/ tweet, mid w/ mid, sub w/ mids, etc. Brain hurts now. THANKs Erin.  But seriously.. Thanks! Good tuning info/resources for sure. I imagine if I reached 80% of the tune level that you're at, it'd be the best system I ever dialed in.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, it should come as no real surprise that the CDE-HD149BT didn't last long. I got the sucker in, and while it functioned as I expected, I hated... HATED... the LCD. It was just too washed out. Not in the sense of sunlight. That wasn't the issue. It just simply didn't look good. You've probably seen my rant elsewhere. I wanted to attempt to mod this thing to get it to look aesthetically up to par with something I could live with so I began researching my options and found an OLED screen that would fit the bill. I talked to Kevin about using this screen in place of the LCD:
http://www.buy-display.com/media/ca...d9f98182eb6081b1d6/3/_/3.2-oled-display_1.jpg


We decided that it should work, based on the 149bt service manual and OLED screen tech sheet. So, I ordered it up. Took nearly a month to receive. I also ordered up a separate faceplate to remote out for control. However, by that time, I was already starting to regret the decision of the single din and not looking forward to trying to make it look like something I could live with. It was going to be a time sink. But, financially it's what I was left with doing. Around the same time, I was given the opportunity to work OT. So, I said "sure", and worked a couple weekends and this past Holiday. Sucked, but I did that to get money to get what I really wanted... this:
Alpine Electronics of America, Inc.


The deck has a few bells and whistles... most of which I don't care about. The one key thing for me is it outputs digital signal from any source. CD, iPod, radio... you name it. You simply enable the optical output and it actually disables the headunit volume. Which then means you have to control the volume via your DSP's volume. The Helix remote can be purchased for $60 and it does volume and other things. All I need is volume and one can be made with a simple mini-din cable and a 10k pot. I then began the search for a good volume pot where I discovered not all pots are created equal. I read online about the various options such as cheap Panasonic, ALPS, and the higher end ones such as the ALPS Blue Velvet and then the expensive options such as Noble, TKD, GoldPoint, DACT, etc. All I need is a good logarithmic pot and I found evidence via some googling that even the "logarithmic" pots aren't entirely logarithmic. The ALPS RK27 line (blue velvet line) are almost entirely logarithmic with about 40-something 'steps' on the pot, allowing a more fluid volume control as opposed to one with 20-something steps and a faster ramp up to loud. So, I ordered up the ALPS RK27(xxxxxxx) model from an eBay vendor in 5kohm flavor (since all the 10kohm are dual-gang). 

Of course, I needed a volume knob for this thing. And I checked digikey, eBay, etc. Could never find one I really liked, though. I then got the idea to try to retro-fit an alpine 7990 knob. I contacted pacparts and they were able to source me a 7990 volume knob as well as the rubber knob ring. Not cheap, but man, it's sweet. I got the parts in yesterday. I had to drill out the 7990 volume knob and then chop off about 4mm on the ALPS shaft to get it to fit right. But, all said and done, it looks awesome. 

The volume knob will go on the console as will a hard-wired alpine remote which will run in to the headunit's SWI jack; no latency of IR. I plan to install this stuff this weekend. Hopefully. When it's done the idea is the console will have all the buttons needed for basic controls as well as a slick volume knob. I purchased a few 3mm blue LED's for some lighting and I'm considering tying one to the underside of the volume knob, wired off the illumination switch, so it illuminates the knob when the headlights are engaged.


Here's a few random pictures...

Bananarama FTW! Karate Kid!!!





Optical out engaged. Disables headunit volume and sends all audio from all sources out the digital end to whatever DSP you're using.





Alps blue velvet pot + Alpine 7990 volume knob =


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's awesome Erin. I used the Noble log pots on my gainclone amp build and they are very nice as well. Do the Alps Blue Velvet's have a nice notched feel with some resistance? That's what I like about the Noble's.

Looks like you found a great solution and can now eliminate the need for any RCA's which only helps to further reduce noise floor


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> That's awesome Erin. I used the Noble log pots on my gainclone amp build and they are very nice as well. Do the Alps Blue Velvet's have a nice notched feel with some resistance? That's what I like about the Noble's.
> 
> Looks like you found a great solution and can now *eliminate the need for any RCA's which only helps to further reduce noise floor*


That is a great looking unit, and that is a great way to pay for it  After all that justification on the inexpensive single din...... Overall, you will likely get more overall satisfaction out of this unit than with the units you have had in the past. 

I like the idea of the 7990 knob used in conjunction with the ALPS pot......I didn't realize the top was that knob in the pic you sent earlier. That should look great. 

Hey Steve......I resemble that remark.......


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> That's awesome Erin. I used the Noble log pots on my gainclone amp build and they are very nice as well. Do the Alps Blue Velvet's have a nice notched feel with some resistance? That's what I like about the Noble's.
> 
> Looks like you found a great solution and can now eliminate the need for any RCA's which only helps to further reduce noise floor


Yea, there's a nice click to the pot and it's an audible click as well. I dig that (others may not). 

I'm excited about the optical out. For years I didn't want to deal with it because I hated having to use separate controls; not just volume but source selection as well because most sources (sans maybe the p9) only sent digital from the CD source. For anything else you had to have analog ran as well. So having the ability to run digital line out for all sources is sweet and it also means I can put the helix volume control in line without having to worry someone is going to use the wrong volume and mess up the gain structure. 




bertholomey said:


> That is a great looking unit, and that is a great way to pay for it  After all that justification on the inexpensive single din...... Overall, you will likely get more overall satisfaction out of this unit than with the units you have had in the past.
> 
> I like the idea of the 7990 knob used in conjunction with the ALPS pot......I didn't realize the top was that knob in the pic you sent earlier. That should look great.



I really liked the w535hd I had and only sold that because I just wanted to scratch an itch. That was right around the time I got to see the 957 in action in Tim's truck and wanted it but couldn't swing the money. But after a lot of OT, I was able to pick it up. Definitely happy with the choice.


----------



## WhereAmEye?

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> In other news...
> 
> Arduino time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had a chance to do a couple tutorials. My daughter helped me set up the RGB LED one.


Arduino is a really cool company, I got to make a line bot my freshman year in my first EE class.


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I really liked the w535hd I had and only sold that because I just wanted to scratch an itch. That was right around the time I got to see the 957 in action in Tim's truck and wanted it but couldn't swing the money. But after a lot of OT, I was able to pick it up. Definitely happy with the choice.


I for one am really glad you had to scratch that itch! That itch gave me the opportunity to re-purpose that w535hd in my Dad's car - he is psyched! It worked out for everyone


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice! So if I get that right, you'll have two volumes? 
One for non-optical (through SWI), and optical (to the Helix), correct?

And glad to know my new head unit just looks like steaming poo. LOL!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nope. A single volume for all sources. The other remote is for track/source/etc.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> And glad to know my new head unit just looks like steaming poo. LOL!


I couldn't take it man. But you knew my feelings about it. That dang lcd. If they'd just put biolite in there or something...


----------



## doitor

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That makes you the official north american winner of the "Most head units in a single car" award.

J.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

meh. I don't do it for the glory.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So are you going to complete the OLED swap on the CDE-HD149BT project and then sell it on at a loss?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

no. Scott already has the 149bt. I've got the OLED screen and I may attempt the swap at a time when I'm not near as busy. Way too much going on with work and I also need to get the car back in order before Finals next month.


----------



## Hanatsu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Well, it should come as no real surprise that the CDE-HD149BT didn't last long. I got the sucker in, and while it functioned as I expected, I hated... HATED... the LCD. It was just too washed out.


I loved the BioLite display on the older Alpines, I've seen the 149 in daylight and yeah... it's not the same.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> no. Scott already has the 149bt.


 Hadda do it. Haven't rocked an Alpine since literally the 06 Trooper and that was a low-end that crapped out.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin,

Since you are an REW user, have you either been using, or developed your own, House Curve for the overall response?
I'd be quite interested to see how it looks, and possibly to attempt tuning against it.


----------



## Tsmith

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, I knew you would like. I love mine. I will have to check out the volume knob and remote you come up with.


----------



## themad

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Hanatsu said:


> I loved the BioLite display on the older Alpines, I've seen the 149 in daylight and yeah... it's not the same.


Yes, the BioLite on the 9887 is great!

Did Alpine abandon the BioLite display on the newer models?
Now they all come with a regular LCD?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Erin,
> 
> Since you are an REW user, have you either been using, or developed your own, House Curve for the overall response?
> I'd be quite interested to see how it looks, and possibly to attempt tuning against it.


Nope. I don't really use a house curve, per se. I just EQ out problem areas and try to smooth the anomalies out the best I can without severe swings in EQ.



Tsmith said:


> Erin, I knew you would like. I love mine. I will have to check out the volume knob and remote you come up with.


Yea, man. It's totally your fault I bought one of these, too! 



themad said:


> Yes, the BioLite on the 9887 is great!
> 
> Did Alpine abandon the BioLite display on the newer models?
> Now they all come with a regular LCD?


Nope, just LCD. *kicks dirt*


----------



## lashlee

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looking good Erin! I may try to make it finals this year to listen to the car. Now all you need to do is figure out a way for your volume knob to work on my PS8!


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



lashlee said:


> Looking good Erin! I may try to make it finals this year to listen to the car. Now all you need to do is figure out a way for your volume knob to work on my PS8!


How many channels are you using out of the PS8?

If you need a volume control for up to 6 channels then I think it might be possible to use the AudioControl Matrix Plus and get the optional wired remote volume controller. The Matrix is a 6 channel line driver. It could take the preamp outs from the PS8 and then give you volume control between the PS8 and the amplifiers.

I'm considering this for my car when I install my new PS8 soon. But I only need 5 channels out for fully active control of my speakers.


----------



## Sencheezy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looking good.


----------



## jriggs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



themad said:


> Yes, the BioLite on the 9887 is great!
> 
> Did Alpine abandon the BioLite display on the newer models?
> Now they all come with a regular LCD?


The CDA 137bti, available in Europe (and eBay) has bio lite.

http://www.alpine-europe.com/p/Products/bluetooth-and-usb8/cda-137bti

Someone on this site had one for sale for awhile.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bertholomey said:


> That is a great looking unit, and that is a great way to pay for it  After all that justification on the inexpensive single din...... Overall, you will likely get more overall satisfaction out of this unit than with the units you have had in the past.
> 
> I like the idea of the 7990 knob used in conjunction with the ALPS pot......I didn't realize the top was that knob in the pic you sent earlier. That should look great.
> 
> Hey Steve......I resemble that remark.......


Hah! Noise floor? What noise floor?


----------



## themad

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



jriggs said:


> The CDA 137bti, available in Europe (and eBay) has bio lite.
> 
> Alpine - Bluetooth - CDA-137BTi
> 
> Someone on this site had one for sale for awhile.


That's nice, thanks for that!
The headunit lineup on Alpine Europe is quite extensive. And they provide 3 different displays: Full LCD, Biolite and LCD Seg.

It's getting about time to change my 9987 but all these variations are simply not helping. :worried:

Hope I don't "have" to do like ErinH and go for the big guys.


----------



## lashlee

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> How many channels are you using out of the PS8?
> 
> If you need a volume control for up to 6 channels then I think it might be possible to use the AudioControl Matrix Plus and get the optional wired remote volume controller. The Matrix is a 6 channel line driver. It could take the preamp outs from the PS8 and then give you volume control between the PS8 and the amplifiers.
> 
> I'm considering this for my car when I install my new PS8 soon. But I only need 5 channels out for fully active control of my speakers.


I looked at the Matrix but ended up getting two Arc ALD's since I only needed four channels of singal from the radio. I would really only need the remote volume if there was a way to run optical into the PS8 (but my OEM radio lacks the ability for any sort of digital signal without major surgery). Like you I'll be running 5 channels out of the PS8.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Installed the headunit. Ran the digital line to the helix. Hacked a mini-din cable and soldered my alps pot in for volume control of the Helix. First impression: Wow. This thing rocks. The system has zero noise and seems to be actually more dynamic because if it. It's like a layer of depth was added to the system that wasn't there before... or maybe that's just the fumes from the CA glue I used to hold the soldered wires on the alps in place.  

I honestly would say in the land of MECA this setup sounds a couple points better than what I competed with at The Vinny a couple months ago and that's the best my system has ever sounded. On top of that, it actually seems like it gets louder than it did when I ran RCA out. I am stoked!


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well I've heard that a Digi Line provides a cleaner and nicer signal than RCAs do. 

Headunit looks nicer than than the other DD you at the last GTG.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Installed the headunit. Ran the digital line to the helix. Hacked a mini-din cable and soldered my alps pot in for volume control of the Helix. First impression: Wow. This thing rocks. *The system has zero noise and seems to be actually more dynamic because if it. It's like a layer of depth was added to the system that wasn't there before... or maybe that's just the fumes from the CA glue I used to hold the soldered wires on the alps in place. *
> 
> I honestly would say in the land of MECA this setup sounds a couple points better than what I competed with at The Vinny a couple months ago and that's the best my system has ever sounded. On top of that, it actually seems like it gets louder than it did when I ran RCA out. I am stoked!


Very possible since you are increasing the effective dynamic range by feeding the Helix a full level signal to be processed. And not an attenuated variable one that will be greatly reduced most of the time since we don't listen at full out master volume settings. That forces the processor to work with a lower grade signal (IOW it has to zoom into a lower mega-pixel signal image ) . You should notice it more the lower the master volume setting you use. That's where the degradation comes in the most.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Installed the headunit. Ran the digital line to the helix. Hacked a mini-din cable and soldered my alps pot in for volume control of the Helix. First impression: Wow. This thing rocks. The system has zero noise and seems to be actually more dynamic because if it. It's like a layer of depth was added to the system that wasn't there before... or maybe that's just the fumes from the CA glue I used to hold the soldered wires on the alps in place.
> 
> I honestly would say in the land of MECA this setup sounds a couple points better than what I competed with at The Vinny a couple months ago and that's the best my system has ever sounded. On top of that, it actually seems like it gets louder than it did when I ran RCA out. I am stoked!


MAN.... I really wish I could put an aftermarket head unit in my car. 


I'm going to have the MoBridge DA1 installed soon. I hope it works well.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



t3sn4f2 said:


> Very possible since you are increasing the effective dynamic range by feeding the Helix a full level signal to be processed. And not an attenuated variable one that will be greatly reduced most of the time since we don't listen at full out master volume settings. That forces the processor to work with a lower grade signal (IOW it has to zoom into a lower mega-pixel signal image ) . You should notice it more the lower the master volume setting you use. That's where the degradation comes in the most.


Yup. 100% true.

That's why it is SO important for DSP processors to have their own volume control. You want to set the source volume at the highest level possible without clipping to maximize the S/N, and then forget it. Use the DSP volume as the master to ensure the best quality at all volume levels.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Installed the headunit. Ran the digital line to the helix. Hacked a mini-din cable and soldered my alps pot in for volume control of the Helix. First impression: Wow. This thing rocks. The system has zero noise and seems to be actually more dynamic because if it. It's like a layer of depth was added to the system that wasn't there before... or maybe that's just the fumes from the CA glue I used to hold the soldered wires on the alps in place.
> 
> I honestly would say in the land of MECA this setup sounds a couple points better than what I competed with at The Vinny a couple months ago and that's the best my system has ever sounded. On top of that, it actually seems like it gets louder than it did when I ran RCA out. I am stoked!


I got one for my birthday a couple weeks ago but won't be installing it until after state finals. You got me really excited about it. Can't wait!


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Installed the headunit. Ran the digital line to the helix. Hacked a mini-din cable and soldered my alps pot in for volume control of the Helix. First impression: Wow. This thing rocks. The system has zero noise and seems to be actually more dynamic because if it. It's like a layer of depth was added to the system that wasn't there before... or maybe that's just the fumes from the CA glue I used to hold the soldered wires on the alps in place.


Just so I understand correctly... you had to create your own volume control?

Does the Helix DSP not offer a volume controller?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

They have one. But I wanted my own for a few reasons. Namely so I could have a volume knob and secondly so I could use a very good log pot.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> They have one. But I wanted my own for a few reasons. Namely so I could have a volume knob and secondly so I could use a very good log pot.


So you basically created your own volume control for the Helix?

How difficult was it?


I have a PS8 which I was planning to install soon, but I'm now intrigued by the Helix DSP. Having a volume control would be one of the reasons to do something else besides the PS8.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

very easy. there's a thread here about it:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ur-own-remote-controller-helix-brax-dsps.html


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

worth noting is the suggestion there is to use a linear pot. I'd suggest you use a logarithmic (aka: audio) pot. If you want to know why just google "linear vs log potentiometer" and you'll find a lot of good info. Here's one that's pretty short and sweet:
Resistors and Potentiometers: A Practical Guide

Cliffs: Audio taper for volume control. Linear for voltage (ie; gain).

Here's some research on how not all log pots are created equal:
Notes on Audio Attenuators


I will warn you, if you are looking for a 10kohm single gang (mono) ALPS RK27 pot like I have.. good luck. I ordered a 5kohm because it's the closest I could find and is sufficient. If you really want 10kohm then you'll have to order a dual gang pot. That may actually work in your favor because you can then control sub level separately... or you just don't wire that section up to the helix if you don't. I would have just gone that route myself but I wanted a slimmer profile and the dual gang has about twice the base height of the mono I have.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> worth noting is the suggestion there is to use a linear pot. I'd suggest you use a logarithmic (aka: audio) pot. If you want to know why just google "linear vs log potentiometer" and you'll find a lot of good info. Here's one that's pretty short and sweet:
> Resistors and Potentiometers: A Practical Guide
> 
> Cliffs: Audio taper for volume control. Linear for voltage (ie; gain).
> 
> Here's some research on how not all log pots are created equal:
> Notes on Audio Attenuators
> 
> 
> I will warn you, if you are looking for a 10kohm single gang (mono) ALPS RK27 pot like I have.. good luck. I ordered a 5kohm because it's the closest I could find and is sufficient. If you really want 10kohm then you'll have to order a dual gang pot. That may actually work in your favor because you can then control sub level separately... or you just don't wire that section up to the helix if you don't. I would have just gone that route myself but I wanted a slimmer profile and the dual gang has about twice the base height of the mono I have.


Great info, thanks.

I'm definitely going to give this some consideration. The parametric EQ along with time alignment AND phase angle control sounds like a game-changer.

I found pics of the Helix controller, and BARF!!! Not sure what they were thinking when they designed that? I can see why you would want your own now.

2 pots sounds good because having a sub volume isn't a bad thing.

Can I also have a switch for swapping tuning presets?
How many presets do you get with the Helix DSP?


What are your feelings on PS8 vs. Helix DSP?


----------



## Babs

Comparing that you're very probably bypassing a previous internal DA conversion in any prior head unit, sending that attenuated analog signal to another AD conversion at the DSP, then back to analog again, I believe this proves the way we're still working with RCA's at all so far upstream in car audio is a degradation in and of itself. 

Instead your system has I think one DA conversion entirely from 1's and 0's on your pod or disc, to analog from the helix. I'd never go back if I were you.


----------



## Babs

Now thinking again how to do this digital signal to DSP directly without a $1200 head unit. Not much out there huh still huh.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> 2 pots sounds good because having a sub volume isn't a bad thing.
> 
> Can I also have a switch for swapping tuning presets?
> How many presets do you get with the Helix DSP?
> 
> 
> What are your feelings on PS8 vs. Helix DSP?


actually, now that I think about it, you may not want (2) log pots because you may not want your sub on a log pot. If you're treating it like a level adjustment, then you may want it to be linear wrt the rest of the speakers. Given that you're really only going to be adjust it minorly, though, I think a dual gang log pot will suffice. At the ends the two seem to converge, but the middle is where the _real_ difference in log vs linear is.

I think both DSPs are great. The Helix worked out better for my needs in the long run so that's what I'm sticking with. If I had the PS8, I'd be stuck without a digital volume control (unless I could talk with someone to help me out with that ).


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If the PS8 controller had already come out, would that have potentially made a difference?

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> If the PS8 controller had already come out, would that have potentially made a difference?
> 
> Jay


Probably not. I like the helix and don't have a need to change. I bought the helix last year before I even remotely considered digital runs to it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

A step outside of audio for a second...

My wife's 2013 Accord has a little blue 'ambiance' LED at the dome light area that I think is really cool. It's subtle enough to provide some lighting over the console/shifter without being distracting. So, I figured why shouldn't I have the same thing...

Ordered a few LEDs from Oznium. In particular, I ordered a 3mm Blue LED for this particular task. Here's the link:
Super Bright Pre-wired LEDs

^ I chose pre-wired because I didn't want to deal with soldering them up myself. 

This is the exact one:





LED on the table:





LED in a little hole I drilled:




Moved to the car for testing with various resistances and physical placement of the LED in the hole (discussed below).


(the bleed through on the headliner is just because the map light piece wasn't fully seated yet; I haven't fully installed this yet since I am waiting before I pull the deck to do some other things)



*Results**:*
It works. I mean, it's a simple little 12v LED so it'd be hard for it not to *work*. But, I mean it functions like I want. I played around with varying resistances and settled on a combination that got me about 70kohm resistance. YMMV. 
I tried to take some pictures but even with the DSLR, it was hard to really capture the difference. But, suffice it to say, I really dig it. It adds a little touch to the cabin and will help with lighting the hardwired remote and volume knob when they're installed.

The final install will have this wired in to the illumination circuit off the stock harness. I considered using the dimmer switch but the light is so unobtrusive that I don't really see the need in doing that. 


Note: A *word of warning* to anyone who wishes to attempt the same thing: be mindful of your rear-view mirror and items on your dash. When I was testing this out, I initially flush mounted the LED. Doing this caused it to be visible in the rear-view which is NOT something you want to see while driving. So, I countersunk it a bit and I also SANDED the LED down so it would diffuse the light a bit more and knock down the areas where it was more dense. This will make more sense if you have played with LEDs before; they aren't really omni. They have a couple hot spots here and there. Sanding them down with some fine grit sand paper helps this. Just be mindful of this when you go to install one like this. *Make sure to test the location and various resistances first* before making it permanent. It would have sucked if I had CA glued this thing flush mount and then seen the light reflected in the rearview, then have to re-do it all. Radio Shack sells resistors for a couple bucks. Or just order some. But go ahead and get some. I'd recommend higher values; low values won't do enough to knock the brightness down. Or, you can drill a smaller hole and concentrate the light to an area. My wife's accord is like this, but I wanted mine to be more evenly dispersed so I didn't do that.




As an aside, if you guys are in to tinkering with 12v, I really suggest you buy a 12v power supply. This made life incredibly easy for this task, since I just took the PS with me outside and plugged it in while I tested this out. Beat having to pull the headunit to tap in to the illumination circuit while playing around. I've got a couple other small LED lighting tasks I want to try next. one of them being to light up the backside of the volume knob on the console if I have the time.


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice...and you do need to light up the volume knob...got to do that


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Kevin K said:


> Nice...and you do need to light up the volume knob...got to do that


if I can find the time, for sure. 

still got a few things to get done: hardwire the remote in place (luckily, the Helix control uses 3.2v so I can jump off the volume knob to keep permanent remote power), paint some trim pieces, and do some detail work before finals. then just a little bit of tuning to eek some additional SQ out.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

more testing for the console remote area...

I had planned to wire the alpine remote directly in to the headunit. I tested this a couple months back and it actually works on the w535hd and the 149bt I had. Just cut off the LED from the remote board and wire the remote's LED +/- to a 1/8" stereo jack plug in the correct manner and it works like a steering wheel button would, excpet you use the alpine remote. 

I had planned to do that with the w957hd but thanks to the new idatalink stuff, that method no longer works. so, instead of hardwiring the remote to the headunit, I just extended the IR LED to the remote. I took it out to the car to test some locations and what I found worked best was hiding the LED transmitter in the dome light. It actually works very well; has excellent LOS with the headunit. 

This is just to give you an idea of the setup. Here's the remote with the LED transmitter hardwires hanging out:






LED transmitter at the dome light. This will of course be hidden by the cover (which doesn't block the signal at all).





The end result will have the volume knob + alpine remote located at the console and hardwired in. The alpine remote will be powered from the Helix's remote output voltage so I don't have to worry about replacing batteries. Hope to have it completed by this weekend.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> actually, now that I think about it, you may not want (2) log pots because you may not want your sub on a log pot. If you're treating it like a level adjustment, then you may want it to be linear wrt the rest of the speakers. Given that you're really only going to be adjust it minorly, though, I think a dual gang log pot will suffice. At the ends the two seem to converge, but the middle is where the _real_ difference in log vs linear is.
> 
> I think both DSPs are great. The Helix worked out better for my needs in the long run so that's what I'm sticking with. If I had the PS8, I'd be stuck without a digital volume control (unless I could talk with someone to help me out with that ).


I think I'm going to wait and see what the Helix DSP Pro looks like.
VERY interested in the next generation. Sounds awesome thus far.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Installed the headunit. Ran the digital line to the helix. Hacked a mini-din cable and soldered my alps pot in for volume control of the Helix. First impression: Wow. This thing rocks. The system has zero noise and seems to be actually more dynamic because if it. It's like a layer of depth was added to the system that wasn't there before... or maybe that's just the fumes from the CA glue I used to hold the soldered wires on the alps in place.
> 
> I honestly would say in the land of MECA this setup sounds a couple points better than what I competed with at The Vinny a couple months ago and that's the best my system has ever sounded. On top of that, it actually seems like it gets louder than it did when I ran RCA out. I am stoked!


Awesome Erin! I didn't notice much noise in your system when I demo'd it back in NC, but the digital signaling just makes it even that much more quiet. Glad it's working out nicely for you!


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I was wondering, does the digital out work for all the sources (ipod, cd, etc...)? What evers coming out of the headunit?


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yes. He covered that already.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yes. All sources. I'm not running any RCA cables off the headunit. Only the digital cable.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

ambient light and IR relocation are complete.

IR led is inside the dome light, out of sight, and works perfectly. 


ambient light off:






ambient light on:




One of these days I'll get my DSLR out and take legit pictures. But, I'm too lazy right now.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, have you checked how the Helix does MVC? Is it in the digital domain like EQ and levels, or is the slider simply a GUI for some type of analog gain control?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Pretty sure I was told it's all digital. DVC.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Pretty sure I was told it's all digital. DVC.


Oh ok


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

IOW, I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> A step outside of audio for a second...
> 
> My wife's 2013 Accord has a little blue 'ambiance' LED at the dome light area that I think is really cool. It's subtle enough to provide some lighting over the console/shifter without being distracting. So, I figured why shouldn't I have the same thing...


My Kia Rio has something similar. At first I didn't like it, but after I got used to it, I like it.

Jay


----------



## REGULARCAB

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> My Kia Rio has something similar. At first I didn't like it, but after I got used to it, I like it.
> 
> Jay


Would be way cooler in red though....


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Pull it out and paint it with some transluscent red paint?

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Red would look out of place in my car. There's no red lighting in my car. Maybe on a SI...


----------



## REGULARCAB

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Red would look out of place in my car. There's no red lighting in my car. Maybe on a SI...


Sorry for the confusion, you wouldn't get it since your not kool enough to own a Kia Rio


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> IOW, I'm not 100% sure.


Did you consider doing MVC from the HD amps when you where looking for a solution? If so, any reason why you didn't go with them for MVC? I bet they use the same pot to control the SSP, as the ALPS you got for the Helix. Or something very similar I would think.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I did. I just didn't like that option as much.


----------



## n_olympios

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



REGULARCAB said:


> Would be way cooler in red though....


My Leon had it in red and it was ok. But the dash/console lighting was also red with white accents, so it matched. 

In my Merc it's warm white (as is every interior light in it) and it's better. 

In my current one it'll have a green accent as that's what the dash/console light colour is.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

obviously what color you get is personal choice.  

I ordered white and warm white as well to try. Preferred the blue overall so I went that route.


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

*cross posted in my HT thread*


On business travel at White Sands this week. Had a couple hours to kill so I drive up to Albuquerque to check out a high end A/V shop called Listen Up. I was greeted by a polite salesman who spent about 30 minutes talking with me about the hobby. Dude was super nice and you could tell he loved what he does. Said he'd been with the company for 20-something years. 

He let me demo this $26k set of B&W 800D speakers powered by a Mcintosh MC302 playing digital music through a Mc C48 preamp and MEN220 room correction piece. It was pretty darn killer. All in the MSRP is about $50k for the setup. It was pretty dang awesome... Dynamic as all get out. Awesome tonality. The one thing that stood out the most was just how real it sounded. I've heard a lot of great systems and this sucker impressed. Very much the experience I had at the HiFi Buys in Nashville a couple years back. 

I went with an agenda to scope out a 2-channel and the MC302 is the one I've been eyeing. Seeing that thing in person is so much different than seeing it on the internet. That amp is a BEAST. No wonder people selling them don't want to ship 'em. I think I'm in love...

































Saw this on the way back to the hotel:













Today is probably the closest ill ever be to "rich". Lol.


----------



## capea4

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That men piece is pretty cool, I have installed a bunch of them.


----------



## bertholomey

That turntable is visually amazing as well. Such stunning pieces of equipment. I don't think I would ever get tired of listening to that rack or seeing that rack if it were in my listening room. What a cool experience - thanks for sharing that.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Beautiful stuff. I love the McIntosh gear, for sure. It's just too pricey for me to justify presently. Maybe one day...


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

$6500? Ouch!


----------



## mrpeabody

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Golden Ear said:


> $6500? Ouch!


Entry-level stuff! 

lol


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bertholomey said:


> That turntable is visually amazing as well. Such stunning pieces of equipment. I don't think I would ever get tired of listening to that rack or seeing that rack if it were in my listening room. What a cool experience - thanks for sharing that.



Yea, at that point, as you and I have discussed before, the psychoacoustic comes in to play. Owning gear with the build quality and name on it like Mc, to me, just makes the listening experience even better. I'm not even talking about it contributing to the SOUND; just the emotional attachment you have to the setup. But, for me, there's a history with the Mcintosh name that draws me to it, so I understand the same can't be said for everyone in regards to the psychoacoustic effect of visually seeing the gear.




capea4 said:


> That men piece is pretty cool, I have installed a bunch of them.


So, does this also mean you have the hookup? LOL. I'm all ears! 




captainobvious said:


> Beautiful stuff. I love the McIntosh gear, for sure. It's just too pricey for me to justify presently. Maybe one day...


Ditto, my friend. Ditto.




Golden Ear said:


> $6500? Ouch!


Even used MC302's are $3500+.


----------



## ErinH

Finished up the console. I wanted to bondo the alpine remote in place so it would be on the same plane but I really am short on time so I just sunk it in and CA glued it in place. The ALPS knob is bolted in place with the Alpine 7990 knob on top. 

I also SEM painted the console trim black to match the floor and console top. Material on the console top is micro suede.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That looks awesome!

I've decided if I actually survive the upcoming audit, I'm definitely taking a break and coming to finals unless hell or high water or my wife prevents it.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That came out great Erin, well done! Looking forward to seeing it up close in person (and getting another demo) at Finals.


cheers


.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks, Steve. I look forward to meeting up with you again as well.


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I really like it too! I actually prefer the black versus the tan for the console - I think that looks sharp. I'm trying to not say something goofy like, "Nice Knob!", but I guess I said it.  Can't wait to give that knob a twist!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

*awkward*

lol


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Your knob really is swanky. I like!


----------



## Coppertone

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm liking the contrast of the black and the tan...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Coppertone said:


> I'm liking the contrast of the black and the tan...


Thanks. It worked out well. I did black floor last year up front because I couldn't get tan to look right. The bad thing about tan is if it's 'off', you notice it easily. Whereas black.. you can have different shades and it doesn't stand out as much. 

So, with that said, I figured I'd keep the black/tan look going. I agree, I think it turned out pretty well. Actually better than I thought it would, which is great, because SEM paint isn't cheap. :/

I bought black headliner material for the doors where your arm rests, but I didn't like it. I'd wrapped one already so I'll wrap it with the microsuede over top so the headliner foam can provide some cushion.

FWIW, I got the microsuede at JoAnn's Fabrics. 1/2 yard cost me about $5.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Your knob really is swanky. I like!


Good! Because the dang thing cost me about $36 all said and done (knob+rubber ring+shipping). 

The ALPS pot was only about $20 or $25, though. I had to order it from Germany which took about 2 weeks to arrive.


----------



## Coppertone

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It all came away well executed and you've done very well.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Of course I'm all interested in SEM paint these days.. What'd you use? Texture black? Just a color? Just curious for known pod reasons.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Coppertone said:


> It all came away well executed and you've done very well.


Thanks, man. I appreciate the comments.


TBH, I'm not 100% satisfied with the console. I really want to pull it and mold the remote in place so it sits flush. The problem then is covering it with a material and getting the holes for the buttons cut. I could do it. It's just a project that would take some time to do and I'm short on it already. So, I'm living with it. It's totally functional which is all I need at this point. And it doesn't look terrible. I just know it could be better. Maybe it could be a winter project. 



Babs said:


> Of course I'm all interested in SEM paint these days.. What'd you use? Texture black? Just a color? Just curious for known pod reasons.


I can take a picture later. I think it's just satin black in their color coat line.
http://cached.tptools.com/RS/SR/collection/8/col_3320_L_17fcb99e.jpg


I paid about $15/can at my local auto-body shop. And two cans was just enough to paint the front floor trim (the trim pieces that run up the side of the car) and the console. I've got about 1/4 of a can left.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Good! Because the dang thing cost me about $36 all said and done (knob+rubber ring+shipping).
> 
> The ALPS pot was only about $20 or $25, though. I had to order it from Germany which took about 2 weeks to arrive.


Are you ****tin' me? I mean, I've always loved the F#1 Status stuff and it's VERY high quality...but that's some expensive...knob.


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just a warning: even if you think there is no danger in doing something, the fact you asked yourself shows there is. 

Case in point: I had the remote volume knob just sitting in the passenger seat the past couple weeks before I had the chance to install it in the console as shown above. It was connected to the helix and was only temporary. One day when driving I accidentally shorted a pin on the potentiometer and the system said "bbbbbbbrrrrrrraaaaaaapppppp" until I removed the short. I saw my right mid excurt (is this a word?) about 20 million inches. Yup. Not good. 

This is the aftermath:










No, the cone is not supposed to flatten out at the surround. :/

Luckily I have back ups. 


So moral: always use electrical tape for a temporary "install" even if you think nothing bad will come. And always have backups ready when possible.


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Dude, thats sucks. Is the speaker still functional or is it totally fried? Even still, hope the damage can be fixed.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

pfft, just another day in Erins life when its countdown to a Finals..lol


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

OOOOOooooooooHHH DAAAMN!!!!!!!!! that 100 shot of NOS blew the welds.

Sorry bro


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Black Rain said:


> Dude, thats sucks. Is the speaker still functional or is it totally fried? Even still, hope the damage can be fixed.


It still plays music... it just doesn't sound good. I have a couple backups so I'm good. Guess it's time to replenish my backup stock. 



Mic10is said:


> pfft, just another day in Erins life when its countdown to a Finals..lol


no joke. I hope this isn't a repeat of 2012 or 2010 when crap just decided to break down on me at the 11th hour. lol. Oh, sad... I shouldn't be laughing. :/


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

wow you do have bad luck before finals. Glad you have back ups but I know that wouldve made me sick to my stomach.


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

one half of the people i know are prepping for h2oi, and the other half are prepping for finals. the similarity is that both sides are cutting it down to the last few hours lol


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm not cutting it down to the wire..I just fried a mid. This time a few years back for a span of a few years I'd be doing a totally new install. Not this year. Instead, I'm just making bonehead mistakes and having to replace speakers. Lol.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> It still plays music... it just doesn't sound good. I have a couple backups so I'm good. Guess it's time to replenish my backup stock.
> 
> 
> 
> no joke. I hope this isn't a repeat of 2012 or 2010 when crap just decided to break down on me at the 11th hour. lol. Oh, sad... I shouldn't be laughing. :/



But now you've learned from it and are better prepared (ie- backups!). Always a good idea to have a backup of every component in the system when possible. Oh, and also the tools to install them if necessary!


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'm not cutting it down to the wire..I just fried a mid. This time a few years back for a span of a few years I'd be doing a totally new install. Not this year. Instead, I'm just making bonehead mistakes and having to replace speakers. Lol.



Thing that sucks about that is said speakers aren't exactly readily available Madisound cheapies either. Sorry to hear it Erin, but glad you have replacements ready- good thinkin' !


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yep. Luckily I've got some connections to help with that. But it definitely stinks to lose any speaker, no matter the cost to replace it. I'll keep this one around since the tweeter is still good, though. Never know if something may happen in the future. 


The good news is replacing that speaker fixed a few things that were problematic. I think it's kind of been funky for a good while now but I couldn't get the results to show up without doing full-bore klippel testing (which, BTW, I no longer own). The focus in the system has gotten better because of it. And after yesterday's show and the feedback from Hogan, it's definitely better than it's been in the past. If nothing else, it's a helluvalot more fun than it's been. And I've managed to wrangle some of the little things about it that annoyed me, so I can quit focusing on the bad and enjoy it. At least for the time being until I key in on something else, lol.


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well I'm glad you were able to find and fix some of the small bugs and kinks in your system, just too bad it was at the cost of a damn good driver. Thank god for back-ups, even though that's not the way we'd all like for then to be used.

Well, at least there was some lessons learned in all of that madness.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yep. I'm not tore up over it, really. Like I said, I have backups. I was more or less posting that info for folks who may recall this one day when they are considering something stupid because they're only going to have it like that for "one day" ... and then that one day turns in to a couple weeks. Well, it can and will likely bite you in the butt.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> But now you've learned from it and are better prepared (ie- backups!). Always a good idea to have a backup of every component in the system when possible. Oh, and also the tools to install them if necessary!


^^ THIS^^ is so Important!!

and its a major PITA hauling that extra stuff to finals!!! I usually take extra mids, an extra amp, wire....
and tools.

in 05 I actually had extra wood, a jigsaw, spray glue and misc other stuff. I ended up having to build some panels for a teammate, which ended up helping him win his class.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I appreciate you posting up about it Erin. I don't have spares, but would if I could afford to. I have had a driver give me issues and I missed a competition because of it. My dealer and manufacturer were great about getting me a replacement quickly. But sometimes, you need it in a couple of hours not a couple of days.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> I appreciate you posting up about it Erin. I don't have spares, but would if I could afford to. I have had a driver give me issues and I missed a competition because of it. My dealer and manufacturer were great about getting me a replacement quickly. But sometimes, you need it in a couple of hours not a couple of days.


No joke. I posted this in Richard's build log because someone reminded me of it, but this is my history ...


Three days before 2012 Finals I had a bad midbass and had to get it overnighted. It arrived the day I left for Finals, which was a Friday. At the same time, I was dealing with a DSP that had issues. So, I took it out the night before I left (Friday) and put in a P99... I went from parametric EQ standalone DSP to a P99... not at all in the same league wrt settings. I spent practically the entire weekend tuning it. That was by far the most stressful weekend for me, trying to get my car up to snuff for Finals. 

In 2010 I put a hole through a midbass when I was in a rush to tighten it back down and the screwdriver slipped... Scan 18wu... $360 to overnight that one. I also did a bad soldering job on an RCA I made, which failed sometime the weekend of Finals. I don't know if I was judged with or without my right midbass playing but I know I gave demos with it out because a friend accused me of giving him the "sh1t tune", lol. Unfortunately, that was Sunday after I had been judged and about an hour before awards. So, who knows... 


So now I make sure I a) have backups and b) don't change gear within a month before Finals. That way, I figure if there's going to be a problem it will have already shown up and if I need to replace something I can. Last year I had no issues... other than myself and my insistence that my right tweeter wasn't working correctly when everyone else told me it was. lol.

I just cross my fingers I don't run in to anymore issues at Finals. Sucks to really be liking the system and then something bust your chi.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> ^^ THIS^^ is so Important!!
> 
> and its a major PITA hauling that extra stuff to finals!!! I usually take extra mids, an extra amp, wire....
> and tools.
> 
> in 05 I actually had extra wood, a jigsaw, spray glue and misc other stuff. I ended up having to build some panels for a teammate, which ended up helping him win his class.



Now *that's* dedication!


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Now *that's* dedication!


not to derail Erin's thread, but I was Notorious for years for showing up to large shows in a current state of unfinished install. So i was hauling around extra stuff to finish my car...05 Finals was the 1st Finals i showed up and everything was done except tuning, but I took extra stuff just in case...coincidentally , its the year I actually won IASCA finals.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I bet you could hand hammer the cone back to a useful profile, if you took your time and was careful about it.

that mid could then serve as low-level back-up, once you got the coil back in alignment by bringing the cone true again.

It might even look cool, like hand hammered copper?

at least you know the coil is stout, and the glues are holding...


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> not to derail Erin's thread, but I was Notorious for years for showing up to large shows in a current state of unfinished install. So i was hauling around extra stuff to finish my car...05 Finals was the 1st Finals i showed up and everything was done *except tuning,* but I took extra stuff just in case...coincidentally , its the year I actually won IASCA finals.


Hah! That's hilarious. As if tuning is a small feat :laugh:

That's why you're the man Mic


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Hah! That's hilarious. As if tuning is a small feat :laugh:
> 
> That's why you're the man Mic


Back then I had A LOT of help Tuning. as part of Team ID, Eric Stevens tuned our cars
all i had to do was make sure it played music and give him enuf time...sometimes that was the problem tho


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You don't[ say...lol.

You weren't the only one with a can of spray glue, trunk liner, and bare trim panels a couple hours before judging. Or even throw a trim panel across the venue because the install judge was pestering you and your batteries just took a crap.



Mic10is said:


> not to derail Erin's thread, but I was Notorious for years for showing up to large shows in a current state of unfinished install. So i was hauling around extra stuff to finish my car...05 Finals was the 1st Finals i showed up and everything was done except tuning, but I took extra stuff just in case...coincidentally , its the year I actually won IASCA finals.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm posting this with the note that I am not at all bragging. If you take it that way, then you don't know me. 

As you guys know, I've been chipping away at the car, trying to get it to be the reference I've wanted for years. I've gotten close a few times but one thing or another changes with the tune (even when I keep the same gear for a over year as I have) or I run in to an issue and sort of lose *it* trying to fix it.

I think I hit paydirt over the weekend. I was pretty happy with it Saturday but knew some things just weren't as dialed as it needed to be. The focus wasn't as tight on some tracks as it should be and the impact was there but the dynamics wasn't quite up to snuff. Sunday I got some great feedback from a judge that aligned with my thoughts, so after my daughter went to bed, I got back at it. A dB off the right midbass, 800hz cut with a Q=2 on the left, add 1dB to the left tweeter, then re-time align by about 0.09ms and... ta-da! Bar none, this is the best my car has ever sounded. I'm so psyched on it right now. I don't want to quit listening to it. It's like I've discovered my music all over again. Everything just sounds so freaking effortless and dynamic. Drum skins have slap to them like never before. At low volumes it has impact and dynamics and at high volumes it can just throttle you. The focus is razor sharp when it is supposed to be a la what I heard in Todd's car last year at Finals (and has been my goal to achieve since then). Tonally, I couldn't ask for more. 

I don't know how it'll score in the two orgs. Really. But what I do know is based on all the references I've heard over the years from traveling and listening to other great cars, this sucker is ON right now. I wanted to call in to work today and just sit in the car in the parking lot when I got here and listen to music instead of going inside. LOL. I had goosebumps on some tracks. MJ's Thriller has never sounded so good.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'm posting this with the note that I am not at all bragging. If you take it that way, then you don't know me.
> 
> As you guys know, I've been chipping away at the car, trying to get it to be the reference I've wanted for years. I've gotten close a few times but one thing or another changes with the tune (even when I keep the same gear for a over year as I have) or I run in to an issue and sort of lose *it* trying to fix it.
> 
> I think I hit paydirt over the weekend. I was pretty happy with it Saturday but knew some things just weren't as dialed as it needed to be. The focus wasn't as tight on some tracks as it should be and the impact was there but the dynamics wasn't quite up to snuff. Sunday I got some great feedback from a judge that aligned with my thoughts, so after my daughter went to bed, I got back at it. A dB off the right midbass, 800hz cut with a Q=2 on the left, add 1dB to the left tweeter, then re-time align by about 0.09ms and... ta-da! Bar none, this is the best my car has ever sounded. I'm so psyched on it right now. I don't want to quit listening to it. It's like I've discovered my music all over again. Everything just sounds so freaking effortless and dynamic. Drum skins have slap to them like never before. At low volumes it has impact and dynamics and at high volumes it can just throttle you. The focus is razor sharp when it is supposed to be a la what I heard in Todd's car last year at Finals (and has been my goal to achieve since then). Tonally, I couldn't ask for more.
> 
> I don't know how it'll score in the two orgs. Really. But what I do know is based on all the references I've heard over the years from traveling and listening to other great cars, this sucker is ON right now. I wanted to call in to work today and just sit in the car in the parking lot when I got here and listen to music instead of going inside. LOL. I had goosebumps on some tracks. MJ's Thriller has never sounded so good.



awesome...let me know how it sounds in the AM


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats Erin, that's awesome. I'd love to hear it. Sounds like you've finally achieved what we've all been working towards.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> awesome...let me know how it sounds in the AM


it _was _the AM, doofus. I think you meant "the PM".


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strakele said:


> Congrats Erin, that's awesome. I'd love to hear it. Sounds like you've finally achieved what we've all been working towards.


I can't say it's the same thing everyone has strived for, but I can say that I'm certainly much closer to the level of sound that I've chased for a long time now. 

Wish you could hear it. Knowing how close our two tastes are and the things I know I've lacked from a subjective standpoint when it comes to what you prefer, I think you'd be pretty happy with it.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> it _was _the AM, doofus. I think you meant "the PM".


i meant tomorrow AM....

I'll check back tomorrow for the 'WTF was I thinking, this sounds nothing like I thought" post


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hopefully this tune is "It"....for a little while

Look forward to listening to it...although I thought it was great Sunday.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yep, that settles it.. I gotta drive over to finals for no other stinking reason that to get there for a day at least and hear your ride. Naturally watch something screw me up and I'll be in the office all damn weekend, like last weekend.


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

awesome. Hopefully itll be dialed next time I get a listen


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

where is the like button


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

time to work on your "**** tune" for the bystanders...

you know, people won't get out of your ride unless you have some sort of eject mechanism, maybe do some profiling before lettin' them in the door...

haha..

imagine that kind of "pull together" sound, using passive components and circuitry, plugging in a resistor here, a capacitor change there, two winds off the coil...


must be what home audio speaker designers feel when they finally get their passive crossover to the place that it's a commercial success.


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> You don't[ say...lol.
> 
> You weren't the only one with a can of spray glue, trunk liner, and bare trim panels a couple hours before judging. Or even throw a trim panel across the venue because the install judge was pestering you and your batteries just took a crap.


I guess add me to the mix, Tuning was mostly done in the AM before Brad started doing SPL.. I'll try to swing by this finals to try to get some seat time.. really need to get my hearing back so when I get done with this damn wagon.. 

Really interested in that mod Erin you have with the controls.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

To help make the car look a bit newer and keep with the tan/black theme, I took the door panels off to clean them and wrapped the arm rests in black microsuede. I also disassembled the switch panels, re-painted them and cleaned the buttons while I had them apart (made it easy to get the built up dirt out). 

Before:












After:


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice touch. I've been wanting to do something like this with my vehicle.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks.

I wish the model year civic I have came in black/gray interior with black exterior. Unfortunately, it was the ONLY year in this model that did not. The 2007-2010 (I think this is the last year of the 8th gen) had the option of tan or black interior. 

So, as the interior gets worn, I just work toward replacing it or refreshing it with black pieces. The button panels for the arm rests were pretty beat up with some gashes and wear on them. I took them apart and sanded them down before painting them with a fresh coat of black yesterday and they look much better. Looking at them now makes me feel like they're new. As weird as it sounds, little things like that actually help me enjoy the system more. It's all mental. I'm mental.


----------



## REGULARCAB

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's looks really nice, and I can understand how the little touches make and difference. The Rio has a hard plastic armrest. I never thought I would miss ANYTHING about my Silverado door panels.


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I wish the model year civic I have came in black/gray interior with black exterior. Unfortunately, it was the ONLY year in this model that did not. The 2007-2010 (I think this is the last year of the 8th gen) had the option of tan or black interior.
> 
> So, as the interior gets worn, I just work toward replacing it or refreshing it with black pieces. The button panels for the arm rests were pretty beat up with some gashes and wear on them. I took them apart and sanded them down before painting them with a fresh coat of black yesterday and they look much better. Looking at them now makes me feel like they're new. As weird as it sounds, little things like that actually help me enjoy the system more. It's all mental. I'm mental.


That's exactly what I'm doing. I bought my vehicle back in February. 2004 Tahoe. It was a repo and I got a great deal on it but the interior was trashed. I've been doing a little at a time. I have a tan interior and converting to either black or a dark grey. Want to get some Escalade or Denali pieces. Their door panels look so much better


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I wish the model year civic I have came in black/gray interior with black exterior. Unfortunately, it was the ONLY year in this model that did not. The 2007-2010 (I think this is the last year of the 8th gen) had the option of tan or black interior.
> 
> So, as the interior gets worn, I just work toward replacing it or refreshing it with black pieces. The button panels for the arm rests were pretty beat up with some gashes and wear on them. I took them apart and sanded them down before painting them with a fresh coat of black yesterday and they look much better. Looking at them now makes me feel like they're new. As weird as it sounds, little things like that actually help me enjoy the system more.


Could start replacing panels a bit at a time, starting with door cards and rear deck, working your way from there. Nothing wrong with a little black/tan two-tone. But you're good enough at it, just paint it a piece at a time. HUGE improvement on your doors I think.. The black suede makes it pop big time.



ErinH said:


> It's all mental. I'm mental.


That is entirely possible. But probably takes a bit of craziness at your level, or you'd go insane. 

Hey... 
On the suede, does that stuff stretch and pleat well at all over complex shapes? 
Gotta source for it you can share easily?
Two guesses (one left, one right) what I'm thinking on that.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I mentioned it earlier. It's the same stuff I used on the console. A microsuede from JoAnn's Fabrics. And it contours/stretches very easily.


----------



## jsketoe

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> i meant tomorrow AM....
> 
> I'll check back tomorrow for the 'WTF was I thinking, this sounds nothing like I thought" post


QFT!!!! I've done that.

ErinH...nice build log.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



jsketoe said:


> QFT!!!! I've done that.


I've done that numerous times. I've learned not to tune at 10pm because of it. 
That said, so far, so good. Still digging the tune. Seems like the spacial boundaries of the car have been pushed out with the latest tweaks. Definitely enjoying the system more and not nit-picking it on my drive to/from work now. 



jsketoe said:


> ErinH...nice build log.


Thanks, John. Heard your name mentioned a lot in the audio circles (good things)... maybe I can meet you in person at finals and put a face with the name.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I've done that numerous times. I've learned not to tune at 10pm because of it.
> That said, so far, so good. Still digging the tune. Seems like the spacial boundaries of the car have been pushed out with the latest tweaks. Definitely enjoying the system more and not nit-picking it on my drive to/from work now.


Save preset, save preset, save preset... 

Then write everything down in case something happens to the processor 

Kelvin


----------



## subterFUSE

subwoofery said:


> Save preset, save preset, save preset...
> 
> 
> 
> Then write everything down in case something happens to the processor
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin



Print Screen. Paste. Save to PDF. ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

Email preset to friends. Save preset on thumb drive(s). 

Check. Check. 

Lol.


----------



## pocket5s

Mine is saved to my computer, and that file is backed up on google drive and an external drive 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Joann's carries alot fabric,its where I get my enclosure material.


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good Luck Erin, look like I'm not going to be able to make it to get a chance to listen. Got a busy weekend.. I'll send you a message in a few weeks when you're settled down from Finals to ask you about that knob..


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

always a bridesmaid... Oh well. The two who beat me are no slouches. 











I'm very happy with the car right now. I had some really good feedback from the judges and people whose opinion I respect and trust. I got the highest scores ever from two judges but got bombed by the third (83, 82.5, 76.5) which may or may not have hurt my chances at 2nd place. *But*, having heard the 2nd place car (Scott Welch's), I honestly felt like either of us could have beat each other... they really did sound so similar. In many aspects I felt like I was listening to my own car, which was really cool! So getting 2nd place to that car is at all no problem. And he's such a cool dude, it made it even less painful. LOL. 

I haven't changed speakers, amps or DSP in over a year. Nothing about this car is planned to be changed other than upgrading to the new Helix DSP for the extra channels so I can play around with rear-fill again. Otherwise, I'm just gonna make a few install tweaks, add a couple minor things to the tune, and ride this sucker in to the sunset while I wait on the financial opportunity to get a new car. In which case, it's soooo gonna be on! 


Thanks to all my friends who helped provide feedback and input over the years. It's appreciated.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats on the podium finish Erin! Way to go!


----------



## MrsPapasin

Congratulations, Erin!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congratulations. As you said, considering the competition, 3rd place is nothing to sneeze at.


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

awesome man, glad the changes you made were noticed during the competition. 

I did want to ask you - Do you have a separate competition tune catered to what judges are looking for? Or is it the tune you use daily?


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

With the tune I demoed there would be no need for another, it was detailed, deep, and wide.....but could still get down, and wasn't bright at volume.....maybe a bump for the subs if ya wanted to draw attention.....lol.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



casey said:


> I did want to ask you - Do you have a separate competition tune catered to what judges are looking for? Or is it the tune you use daily?


One tune that covers competition/demos/daily driving. The car is quiet enough when driving that I don't need to make up for it and the tune I shoot for is one that I think captures at least the majority of what is desired by judges and satisfies my needs as well. One seated position as well (ie; not slid all the way back for judges and scooted up for driving). 

So, anyone who takes the system for a spin is sitting in the same spot and listening to the same tune I drive with every day. If I had to deal with changing things up for competition, I'd never get it right. LOL.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> Congratulations. As you said, considering the competition, 3rd place is nothing to sneeze at.


thanks. indeed, the guys above me have some stout cars. I ain't about to try to rebuild my dash, either. that'd be a train wreck! lol.


----------



## pionkej

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats again man. Your really did have the car on point at Finals. I told Leslie it was the best I'd ever heard it. She said, "you always say that about his car." So either I'm too nice or your car just keeps getting better. 

And you know me...I'm not a nice person.


----------



## ErinH

Lol. Well, you are nice. Just not usually to me. Haha. 

Looking forward to seeing you again, my friend. I definitely missed you and Todd being there this year. Hopefully you are able to rock it next year and I'll support you like a pair of suspenders.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hate I missed it.. Been dying for years to hear your ride. And at least meet finally.

I worked with Hajji years ago as well.. Would have been nice to demo his current car. Last time I heard his setup it was the eclipse in the plant parking lot while I was still there.

I never can make it to these events. May be a good thing, so I don't get the bug.


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> I worked with Hajji years ago as well.. Would have been nice to demo his current car. Last time I heard his setup it was the eclipse in the plant parking lot while I was still there.
> 
> I never can make it to these events. May be a good thing, so I don't get the bug.


You need to talk to him about coming to the NC Meet in Nov.......I mentioned it to him.....he was considering


----------



## BigRed

Congrats on your placement in Meca Erin!! Let me know if u need anything else broken


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I must have walked past Erin's car 20 times, and most of the time it was closed up. When I finally saw it open, no one was around it. I was bummed I didn't get a listen. Next year, Erin, I will hunt you down. LOL.

Congrats, BTW.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigRed said:


> Congrats on your placement in Meca Erin!! Let me know if u need anything else broken


Thanks. For both!!!! LOL!

Still driving without tunes. Podcasts on an iphone speaker phone ftw!




JayinMI said:


> I must have walked past Erin's car 20 times, and most of the time it was closed up. When I finally saw it open, no one was around it. I was bummed I didn't get a listen. Next year, Erin, I will hunt you down. LOL.
> 
> Congrats, BTW.
> 
> Jay



I tried to leave my door open for people to jump in. When folks would get in I'd show them how to control the volume, then jump back out and let them rock it on their own. It seemed like when someone would demo it, they'd shut the door after they got out. So, I'd come back to the car and have to open the door. You must've walked by in between those times. haha. 

Wish I had known you were looking for me. Would've been happy to give you a demo or at least let you know it was cool to hop in if you saw the opportunity. Next year, for sure!


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think I talked to Claydo later and he told me that was how it was supposed to go, but that was right around the time they started announcing results. But now I know for next time. If they have finals a similar distance from me, I'd go again!

Jay


----------



## Rs roms

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> always a bridesmaid... Oh well. The two who beat me are no slouches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very happy with the car right now. I had some really good feedback from the judges and people whose opinion I respect and trust. I got the highest scores ever from two judges but got bombed by the third (83, 82.5, 76.5) which may or may not have hurt my chances at 2nd place. *But*, having heard the 2nd place car (Scott Welch's), I honestly felt like either of us could have beat each other... they really did sound so similar. In many aspects I felt like I was listening to my own car, which was really cool! So getting 2nd place to that car is at all no problem. And he's such a cool dude, it made it even less painful. LOL.
> 
> I haven't changed speakers, amps or DSP in over a year. Nothing about this car is planned to be changed other than upgrading to the new Helix DSP for the extra channels so I can play around with rear-fill again. Otherwise, I'm just gonna make a few install tweaks, add a couple minor things to the tune, and ride this sucker in to the sunset while I wait on the financial opportunity to get a new car. In which case, it's soooo gonna be on!
> 
> 
> Thanks to all my friends who helped provide feedback and input over the years. It's appreciated.


Congrats Erin, your attention to detail paid off.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You didn't want a first place trophy, anyway. You should have seen what Jim had to do to get his to fit in his truck! lol Yours probably fit in the car.

Did you listen to any other cars throughout the day, or did you just have to hang in the vicinity of yours?

I think if I had done it again, I'd have asked for a demo of the Black civic next to BowDown's car (cause I didn't realize whose that was at the time), the light blue Jag with the tube amps inside, and the black, slammed NBS chevy in the corner. Claydo was raving about it.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> Did you listen to any other cars throughout the day, or did you just have to hang in the vicinity of yours?
> 
> Jay




I made it a point to listen to as many cars as I could between being judged and giving demos (I was giving demos literally in between judges on Sunday). I think the total was around 17-18 cars. 

I didn't get to listen to a few I wanted to hear but I was able to check many off the bucket list.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Dmack said:


> I had the same problem with the third judge--yes, I know exactly the one. Vinny gave me an 83, which was the same as you and Kirk. For this I was very honored, and once again give you thanks for the suggestions on tuning. David gave me a 77.5. I too think this was well deserved, and representative of the improvements made to the car since Alabama Finals when he scored me a 74. However, the outlier was the third judge who bombed me with a 71.5 without any real explanation. I find that the cars that won did well with this judge.
> 
> I can't wait to get some serious seat time in your car!!



Who were the three MECA judges?


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin-

It was nice to get some seat time in the Civic for Finals. I thought it sounded good at Jason's last meet, but it was definitely improved for finals. Just like I told you, you had a very strong car and I thought I'd see you podium, and well...you did ! I think it's a very unique thing that seems to happen in your car. The soundstage is deep and almost has a sort of horseshoe type of stadium effect. I heard some others comment on it as well. The tonality was great and the overall balance was excellent. You can tell you've spent some time honing in the tune. Great job my friend, and a big congrats on the trophy- it's well deserved.




PS- You have a nice knob.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

awkwaaaaaaaaaard....


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> awkwaaaaaaaaaard....



No, what would have been awkward is if I had said Jim was yankin on yer knob too hard and broke it.

:laugh:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Indeed, you are right. 


Good to see you again and thanks for the demo in your car. It definitely sounded good! I've heard a lot of good things about it from various people who listened to it this weekend as well.


----------



## BigRed

I made Erin go knob less It's just what I do


----------



## ErinH

I'm not sure that's something you want to brag about. Lol.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Jim was actually holding his Erin's knob when he needed to readjust himself into a better position and then broke it


----------



## BigRed

I actually thought it imaged better with Erin's knob forward. Lmao


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

it's like a flight controller. up is down. down is up.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I was going to ask how you managed to mount the knob on the arm rest. Apparently, it wasn't nearly as technical as I thought. lol

Jay


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I can certainly believe that is the daily tune, because as I gave you my (amateur) impressions I could not help but say it was comfortable to listen to, like someone talking/singing in front of you. A-->A, I like it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> I was going to ask how you managed to mount the knob on the arm rest. Apparently, it wasn't nearly as technical as I thought. lol
> 
> Jay


It's just an alps pot. I discussed it in a bit of depth some posts back. No special mounting... just an underside mount. Jim slid the console top forward when he was sitting up and when he did, the wires (which I didn't give enough slack to) broke. I just fixed it a few minutes ago... just added some extra length to them. All is well now. So, Jim, you can rest easy. 




schmiddr2 said:


> I can certainly believe that is the daily tune, because as I gave you my (amateur) impressions I could not help but say it was comfortable to listen to, like someone talking/singing in front of you. A-->A, I like it.


Thanks for the compliment, man. Glad we had the chance to talk the install/tune over, too. Looks like you still understood what my goal was even though I had a tough time explaining it to you.


----------



## TheDavel

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

To loosely quote someone that listened to Erins car,

"I cant imagine that anybody's car could have sounded better. Tonality, image, dynamics, stage width/height/depth/ were flat out amazing... the only thing that I could see bumping the other guys into spots 1 and 2 would be install."

Apparently you've managed to perfectly blend your sub without localizing it, yet retaining its impact too. :beerchug:epper:


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigRed said:


> I actually thought it imaged better with Erin's knob forward. Lmao




Are you saying the tuning was "softer" ?


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Are you saying the tuning was "softer" ?


or just some kind of s.knob  

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



TheDavel said:


> To loosely quote someone that listened to Erins car,
> 
> "I cant imagine that anybody's car could have sounded better. Tonality, image, dynamics, stage width/height/depth/ were flat out amazing... the only thing that I could see bumping the other guys into spots 1 and 2 would be install."
> 
> Apparently you've managed to perfectly blend your sub without localizing it, yet retaining its impact too. :beerchug:epper:


Well, dern! that's a heck of a compliment! Thanks for that, whoever you are.


----------



## TheDavel

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Well, dern! that's a heck of a compliment! Thanks for that, whoever you are.


It was from a past member... Something like "bobdrips" or "robditts"...


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, in your original old log you had the details of the IB build, but as that was ancient history in terms of all the progress with this car, the pics were moved so they don't show up in the thread. 

By chance you still have them.  

I'm interested how you did up the baffle in the sedan trunk (exactly like mine), with the two side covers, mounting, etc. and any stuff you did to the sides above wheel wells, rear deck, etc.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I can show you at Jason's meet if you want.

Otherwise, a lot of wood, spray foam, and stuffing material.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I can show you at Jason's meet if you want.


Yep, that was a thought I had. Prolly the way to go. Thanks. 

Still pondering on trying an HT18, although I've been rather pleased of late with the little Dayton, and if it can blend in well, it may be moot point. An IB wall however I 'suspect' (keyword) might be easier for a cleaner install than glassing a good and proper corner box for the dayton.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

the ht18 might fit, but it would be tight. my 15's don't have a lot of room at the top and bottom.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

dun, dun, duuuuuuuunnnnnnn....

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...mw13p-4-5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-4-ohm/


----------



## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> dun, dun, duuuuuuuunnnnnnn....
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...mw13p-4-5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-4-ohm/


Those look really solid. Can't wait to hear them!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

They should be in the car at your meet. Currently on the tweeter hunt and just ordered up the Scan D3004 (which would make it the 3rd time I've owned them, LOL). 

I've had the Satori's playing 220hz+ since last week (while I'm currently tweeterless) and I must say... they are VERY nice. As a midrange in the 300-3khz range, I'd subjectively rank them above the 12m revelator's and the 12mu illuminators. Of course, these are 5" drivers, so there's obviously more low end to them in regards to surface area. I was a bit troubled by the surround resonance dip at ~1.5khz (per the spec sheet here), but it's not an issue at all. I'm really impressed with them even playing well beyond their intended range, too which means it's going to be easy to mate them with a tweeter.

I'm very excited about the update. I won't have it put together by FreezeFest (not competing anyway) but I definitely will have a different setup for the NC meet.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> dun, dun, duuuuuuuunnnnnnn....
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...mw13p-4-5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-4-ohm/


Pair it with a Trio of 32W/4878T00 and you'll be set  

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> dun, dun, duuuuuuuunnnnnnn....
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...mw13p-4-5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-4-ohm/


Pair it with a Trio of 32W/4878T00 and you'll be set  

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll pass. That's all you.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What happened to the KEFs?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

plucked 'em. I really was more curious about these Satoris when I saw them listed on Madisound last month. Finally decided to order them. They are literally drop-ins for the Kefs; even the screw holes line up. I've had the Kefs in the car for the past two years. There are a few things about them I love and there are a couple things that bothered me (not from the driver itself, but the integration in the car and the ability to get more easily). So, I figure it's time to play with something else. The pros for the Satoris are higher efficiency (about 3-4dB higher) and more overall surface area for the mid.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

My dumb question for the day:
Those big boys going in your pillars? 
Enough space and/or air volume?

Those are the type that makes me think too bad they're covered up.. Gorgeous.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

yea. drop-in replacements for the Kef. Crossover will be well above fs so the airspace isn't a huge concern (though, it's plenty adequate).


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

How about trying the new Audiofrogs? 1.5's cross down pretty low (1800 i think)


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ I concur. Might make a sweet matchup.

It's making me think about the new GS series 4" Afrog coaxials again. I know.. Might be a silly idea. But, it might very well be a plate of kickassness with awesomefries. Also simple single-channel install. What's not to like.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> ^ I concur. Might make a sweet matchup.
> 
> It's making me think about the new GS series 4" Afrog coaxials again. I know.. Might be a silly idea. But, it might very well be a plate of kickassness with awesomefries. Also simple single-channel install. *What's not to like*.


The target demographic perhaps. Finger pocking resistance must have some SQ compromises.....I would think.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have the AF GB15 on hand. Pretty killer tweeter with tons of freakin' install hardware. Overall just not going to work for my needs, though. 

Here's a crappy cell phone pic I took of me mocking them up with the SB in the car:


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Prolly the smaller tweet I might have picked to mate with it. Really thinking about the AF 2" mid for shoehorning into the door-tweet location in the Taco. One guy got the Dayton RS75 in there with a tweet in the sail. Might have better SQ potential than my Civic even.

Would make for a nice wide stage I imagine as you have it placed though, whatever the winning tweet may be. The AF grill work sure is nice eye candy.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Prolly the smaller tweet I might have picked to mate with it.


the intent was to have a tweeter that could handle a lower crossover given I'm using a 5" midrange and beaming occurs lower in frequency than with a 4" or 3". the gb15 is more suited for this than the gb10. the Fs on the gb15 measured at about 1150hz, IIRC. I did a quick impedance sweep before firing them up in the car.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

every now and again when someone asks what all is installed in the car I walk through the typical "subs in the back, midbasses in floors, amps under seats", etc. The DSP is installed in the console area and it's not quite easy to show that (though I can get to it pretty quickly). I chose this area because it's hidden and for the most part I didn't want any 'show' to this system (thus, the amps under the seats and the midbasses buried under carpet). 

since I had the console out a couple weeks ago to install the new Helix DSP Pro, I snapped a picture of it with my phone. So, just for anyone curious, here you go:




This is toward the front of the console; under the radio area. You can see the optical cable coiled up above it and wedged in to place (aka: lazy).


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Cool, but I'm really disappointed that you're not using those subs in stereo. 

Oh, whatcha gonna use for your rear fill?

And besides the S-S's that you ordered, do you have any other tweeters that you plan to test for this setup?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Subs. In stereo. Bwaaaaahahahahahahaha. 


Rear fill is the scan 10f. The smaller Neo magnet version. On phone so too lazy to link. 


A buddy is lending me a pair of the gladen aerospace tweeters (don't recall if they are the 20 or 28mm version) to try out. They look interesting for sure.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> The DSP is installed in the console area...
> 
> 
> 
> This is toward the front of the console; under the radio area. You can see the optical cable coiled up above it and wedged in to place (aka: lazy).


That is way impressive.. Having spent a good deal of time up in that area, more than I would have liked in fact, that's awesome you can put it there without issue. 

I had thought that would be a nice hidden spot and had an iPod adapter there once, not much smaller. Nice short run to the dash. But I worried it'd be a noisy nightmare spot. 

I guess since you're running optical out, all bets are off between the head unit and the DSP. Plus short RCA runs just under a seat from there. Very nice. Wish my amps were JL's or PDX's with connections on back instead of the sides. More under-seat install friendly.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I had RCA from the headunit to that spot for a couple years when I had other DSPs (Mosconi, ps8, helix dsp). So as noisy as I though it could be I've actually never found it to be an issue. And like you said, it makes for pretty short runs of RCAs to amps since it's only a couple feet.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Rear fill is the scan 10f. The smaller Neo magnet version. On phone so too lazy to link.
> 
> A buddy is lending me a pair of the gladen aerospace tweeters (don't recall if they are the 20 or 28mm version) to try out. They look interesting for sure.


Are you running the 10f by itself for rear-fill? 
What crossover point(s)?

I really loved the passive TB W6 / SEAS Neo passive comp setup I had with the MS-8 L7 rears. But I'm pretty ignorant on what's considered a good recipe for rear-fill SQ these days for non-logic-7 straight-up rear channels. I was thinking just doing that again, or possibly just mid-bass. Not screwing up the stage though being the rear-fill fun.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

10f by itself, yes. I chose it because of it's good linearity in the passband I plan to run it (400-5k). That passband may change. Back when I ran rear-fill with the JL C5 6.5's it was around the same bandpass. But the rear-fill effect didn't work well with them upfiring in the stock location. The new rear-fill will be a better suited install.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

some of you guys on CAJ have probably seen the following posts because they are direct copy/paste from my build long there.
but I think it's pretty neat stuff and thought some of my friends here may be interested in them, so...



ErinH said:


> Since I'm currently in between installs, and I still want music, I decided to run 2-way for the time being: subs + 5" satoris. I thought it might be cool to share my findings with this setup. I know there are lots of people using up front subs, but it's rare to find legitimate discussion on rear subwoofers crossed really high.
> 
> I opened up the sub to about 210hz/LR2. I ran the 5" mids from 210/LR2 and removed the low pass so they are playing wide open (until I'm able to install the tweeters). I spent about 2 hours of tuning it, to make it work as best I could since I know I'll be listening to it like that for a couple weeks.
> 
> 
> *Pros:*
> I can totally see why people love these kind of simple, 2-way systems, using a sub+mid. The lack of a crossover in the typical bandpasses negate the issues you typically get when you don't set the crossovers up *properly*. and even knowing how to set up a crossover, it's not trivial. Especially in the lower frequencies where the wavelength is long... whole lot less room for error there. The result I got was a very clean sound in the response below 5-6khz. It was _really _inspiring. The soundstage didn't necessarily change but the tonality was really nice and I certainly noticed things in songs I hadn't keyed on before. Additionally, not having the tactile feedback at the floor (because the midbasses were off) took your mind off any kind of physical distraction and I was able to really just listen to the music; not feel as much of it, if you know what I mean. And in regards to impact... lord... there was tons of it. The kick of a kick drum and the double bass sounded awesome. Very quick response; no significant resonance other than the typical problem areas in the car. Probably the best low frequency response in regards to _impact _I've heard (there's a 'but' to this below).
> 
> 
> *Cons:*
> BUT, on the flip side, after spending time with it this morning, I realize I couldn't listen to this setup as a DD. Sure, a simple setup like that in my wife's car would be a great stock upgrade and cost very little (a simple 3-channel amp would do it). But, personally, these are the areas I felt it fell apart:
> *a)* The response between 120-200hz. There wasn't necessarily a 'pull' to the rear with _most _music since the 5" mids up front did a good job anchoring the sound queues up to the front. But some music, for example: Korn's _Blind_, with the early bass notes, would cause a split stage where I felt like I was sitting between two different sound sources... because I was. There wasn't much other than those notes playing which meant the majority of the content was all low frequency which meant that my subs were pretty much the only thing making noise. Easy to understand why there was a distinct split in the stage.
> 
> *b)* Additionally, the tactile... there wasn't so much of it that it bothered me in a _big _way. But the problem was trying to get the FR balance. Basically playing the precedence effect game; lower the sub enough in level and you don't have an audible pull to the rear because the fronts help pull your attention up front, but if I wanted that solid 'kick' - and this particular setup has PLENTY of it - I'd have to bump the sub level up to get the <80hz impact I wanted. When I did this, though, THEN I'd start to get some pull to the rear and more tactile vibration at my seat higher in frequency. Again, not major, but ultimately I'd have to do some shaping to strike the balance I need. If I get the opportunity, I'll run a sweep because I'm curious to see what the response is now. I think, more than anything, the subs just do a better job of lighting up the 140-ish mode I have in the car. I've also noticed there's a modal ringing in the trunk itself above 120hz so it could very well be that causing the acoustic 'pull' to the rear of the car. My seat vibrates with just a single midbass playing. So, it's not the sub causing the vibration as much as it is just making it even more noticeable since it has the greater output potential.
> 
> 
> *c)* As mentioned, the response was really nice in the midrange below about 5-6khz. However, above this point, it was not so good. Tonally, it was OK, but in regards to imaging it was bad. The 5" mid was well in to beaming here and the effect you get with that is a total "tune it and listen to it with your head in a vice" effect.
> 
> I'd have to spend a LOT of time to get the response difference between left/right to balance out if I were to use these without a tweeter and after that, I'd have to listen to it and make sure anyone getting a demo listened to it at the same point from there on, because if you move an inch or more from that position, all the tuning efforts are negated; the sound is more and more diffuse because the ratio of direct/reflected sound is so low and anything you hear as 'direct' sound is immediately washed out by the non-linear reflections. Just totally kills the high frequency response of the system. And it's worth noting that these 5's are VERY well behaved in regards to polar response up to 10khz (pictured below is the 0 and 60 deg measurements). So a speaker with poorer polar response would only sound worse in this particular instance.
> 
> 
> It's worth noting that even with just the subs playing and no midbass, I would occasionally feel tactile at my feet with my feet no matter where I had them. I never noticed this with the sub playing typical bandpass below 80hz so I attribute it to causing the floorboard area to resonate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SB MW13P-4 FR at 0 and 60 degrees:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and some other stuff. same thing as above... stuff I copy/pasted from my build long on CAJ.

Keep in mind that this was when I was trying to make the AF GB15 work so some of this won't apply. But, most of the talk about the differences I noticed in aiming will...



erinh said:


> Installation: currently trying to decide how I want to go about this. The easiest option is to essentially make a baffle that attaches to the mid's mounting point and extends out to where the sail panel is and allows the tweeter to install in there. The pro here is a) it saves me from having to do more custom work and b) it keeps the tweeter from getting hit by the elements (rain) when the doors are opened up since the tweeter isn't fabricated to the door panel itself.
> 
> That said, cosmetically I don't know how I feel about it. I can make it look good with some materials and/or paint I know. Acoustically, there are some pros/cons here as well. But that can be said for the other options I'm considering as well. Since you gotta start somewhere, so I started last night on mocking up some baffles for this install option just to get an idea of how it would look and what the aiming would be. Here's a couple crappy cell phone pictures I snapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My other option is to rebuild the pillars entirely which affords me the opportunity to work on aiming. Aiming is really a trade-off game. Aim them cross firing reduces near side intensity issues that I've found are practically impossible to _really _tune out (while I can adjust the impulse in time and intensity, I have never really felt that solved the issue entirely). What I typically find, in my car and others, is a skewed stage where the near side is closer to the listener than the far side. Imagine if you drew a line of where the stage begins from left to right. Instead of being straight across the dash from one speaker to the other, the line would start maybe 1 foot in front of you on the left and it would be 2 feet in front of you on the right. (If anyone needs help understanding what I mean, I can draw a quick picture. Just lmk.)
> So, toeing in the speakers helps to mechanically remedy that via time/intensity trading (this is how most horn type speakers are set up in a conventional listening room, for a similar reason).
> 
> BUT, the more off-axis you place the speakers - firing in front of you rather than toward you - to remedy this near side bias, the more opposite side reflections you get which hurt the sense of 'space' because it increases cross-talk. The less you are able to pin-point images the more diffuse the system likely is and that, IME, really causes your sense of space to suffer.
> 
> Basically, it's a big game of trade-offs. This is part of the learning curve, though. As I build and tune, build and tune, I learn these things through experience, then find information that explains it (ie; great information on ASW vs IACC (width vs cross-talk, essentially) helps make sense of some of this). So, what I'll have to do is play around with some different methods of aiming. Maybe this time aim the left-side speakers more straight; toward my left ear, rather than toward the center of the car like my current install. And keep the right mid where it is, but maybe angle it back a touch so there's less high-frequency content bouncing off my driver's side window causing me issues. Or maybe do the complete opposite: aim the left side more off-axis toward the right side of the car. Ultimately it's just an exercise in picking the lesser of evils.
> 
> 
> Aaaaaaaanyway, I though I'd share some of the 'method to the madness'. Because unfortunately, I feel a rebuild of the pillars coming on.  Good thing I already have a spare set.





erinh said:


> Yea, if you notice on the first picture I marked the CTC distance as 130mm. That's the best I can do for this current install option, which is about 2640hz (full wave). If I rebuild the pillars I'd like to get that number higher but the best I could do is about 3000hz (CTC minimal spacing of about 4.5"). That's what I'd shoot for to get the lobing frequency higher, but also, I couldn't afford any additional space if I for some reason wanted it because, as it is, I'll already have a hard enough time integrating this combo in a vertical configuration in the pillar.
> 
> I agree, it probably will look fine once said and done. That's kind of why I'm 'vetting' this option before deciding to rebuild the pillars entirely. The one thing I don't particularly like about tweeters where they'd be here is it increases width but it's a real pseudo-sense of width. That said, it's just another trade-off for this option, just like any other install I'd go with would have. If I went with the pillars that would create more potential for comb-filtering off the side glass, though... the distance from tweeter to side glass there would be about 4-5 inches, which equates to the first comb null at about 2700-3375hz and then the combing peak/null patterns continues on up. Not tuning that out. Initially you think, "well the mid would face the same issue" ... but that frequency range is outside of the mid's passband (more than likely the mid will be crossed around 2khz). And worse, this is where the tweeter is still practically omnidirectional. So, in this regard you deal with more combing issues from the tweeter/left side window with a vertical stacked pillar arrangement than you would if you mounted tweeter close to the left side window itself like I would with this 'sail panel' type install location; essentially moving the comb up to _well _above 10khz (where, by then, it would be par for the course).
> 
> Additionally, as far as width/space goes the rear-fill will help immensely.
> 
> I'm not really in a hurry to knock this out. As long as I have something completed with enough time to get a good tune for Jason's meet, I'm fine.





erinh said:


> I can't tell you the number of times I've built pillars/sails/etc. Each time there's a different take on it, though. I learn something with each iteration. But what took me the longest time to accept is there is no 'best' method. There are 'best' aspects to each method, though. It's just a game of playing the benefits.
> 
> Some of the things I mentioned above really just scratch the surface because I don't know how to really put in to words some of the more subjective aspects of the install methods I've done. The other aspect is the psychoacoustic aspect. I tip my hat to it, because it can't be beaten. I think this is where *real* stealth installs benefit; they may not be acoustically the best, but when you can't see a speaker it really takes your mind off it and *for me* permits the ability to just *listen*. I really saw this on a grand scale with my recent HT overhaul, going to an acoustically transparent screen and hiding the speakers behind it (for the most part, in it's current state). I get in cars like Cook's and others' whose speakers are well hidden and it really seems to be a totally different experience. Heck, even the color of my car's interior changing did a number on the sense of spaciousness of my system (I'm dead serious; as crazy as it sounds). But, then again, crazy is psycho... so psychoacoustics are kinda crazy. Acknowledging that aspect, in my opinion, really helps you out. Heck, in some ways it's become the scapegoat for everything I cant attain. "Oh, I wish my system did X. If only I didn't see the speakers."
> 
> So, does that then mean a system that, sound-wise, is 70% can bump up to 90% because you're not seeing the speakers? Maybe. I have heard quite a few 'stealth' installs that didn't sound good no matter how hard I closed my eyes. lol.
> 
> 
> I do have fun with it, though. Like I said earlier, it isn't so much the desire to get 'better', but the desire to try new things... to have something to do. After all, that's what a hobby is. Some spend their time tearing down old computers, some build and rebuild cars. We do it with speakers.





erinh said:


> I had a few minutes earlier this weekend so I decided to see if I could get away with this, in regards to size. I cut a 'baffle' with the tweeter and mid next to each, separated by about 102mm CTC. I used one of my spare pillars to size it up and... no way. The baffles would stick out MUCH too far to pull this off. I toyed around with angling the baffle but in the end, it just doesn't look right unless I want a big blob sitting on my dash. My pillars lend themselves to allow a large driver or smaller mid/tweeter combo so I'd like to stick to that.
> 
> I played around with the Satori and AF tweeter this weekend a bit and have settled on the following:
> Use the existing pillars but use an angled trim ring to put the left side mid more on-axis and the right side mid a bit more toward the passenger.
> The tweeter will go in the 'sail' via an extension of the trim ring.
> 
> Acoustically this was the best solution and it still keeps me from having to build new pillars from scratch. In terms of acoustics the improvement came in regards to focus and tonality (I believe) through higher direct vs reflected sound. The current setup I have now images fairly well out of the box, with little t/a and level matching needed to get balance. This is the ILD/ITD trading I mentioned before. But the new configuration, much closer to what I had back in 2010 with the Scan 12m and Scan d2904 tweeter in the pillar, with proper levels and T/A has better focus than the older setup even with T/A and levels. IOW, the previous setup was much more geared toward a 2-seat car because it did a very good job of balancing the level/time aspect on the nearside (whichever side you were on) with less need for T/A & levels to get balance, while the future planned setup has sharper imaging and is much more geared toward a 1-seat setup. I was never chasing 2-seat so that's of no concern. I'm basically trading out a configuration that required 50% of the level matching & T/A to get 80% of the sound compared to a setup that requires more T/A & level matching work but will result in sharper imaging (and thus, better tonality).


----------



## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^Pretty cool info with the sub + mid setup. Gives me a little more confidence in the direction I am heading.

Do you feel you lost any stage width, or the stage became more amorphous with the 210hz xover? I convinced myself to run stereo subs in my rear quarters to see if it will pull the stage wider. I plan to target ~150hz in the crossover with fairly shallow LR slopes. It might not make any difference, but I wanted the flexibility to try. 

Thanks


----------



## pionkej

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> 10f by itself, yes. I chose it because of it's good linearity in the passband I plan to run it (400-5k). That passband may change. Back when I ran rear-fill with the JL C5 6.5's it was around the same bandpass. But the rear-fill effect didn't work well with them upfiring in the stock location. The new rear-fill will be a better suited install.


Since you revived my build log, I thought I'd "drop by" yours. Just as an FYI on the rear-fill, I had great luck running my fill from my midrange transition point up. With an Fs of 90hz or so, crossing them at 220hz should be no problem. On the top-end I just let them roll off naturally, but since they extend pretty well and low-order filter may be good. For me it allowed the speakers to pretty well match the vocal range of the fronts and it helped make them disappear (never present themselves as being installed may be more appropriate).

Remember, you will be cancelling out any information that is common between left and right, as most bass and midbass is, so running a small mid low with rear-fill isn't really a big deal at all.


----------



## lostthumb

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> dun, dun, duuuuuuuunnnnnnn....
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...mw13p-4-5-egyptian-papyrus-cone-woofer-4-ohm/


Satori speakers are so nice! I have a set of 6s for my home speakers.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I always thought they were nice (the 6's). I saw a link on tech-talk last month announcing Madisound had new drivers up for sale. I went to check it out and saw the 5's. Debated for an hour and pulled the trigger. Very happy I did.


----------



## quality_sound

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you had the KEFs in for two years. I didn't think it had been that long and the only thing you've kept longer is your amps. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yep. It surprised me as well.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, thanks for bringing over all your posts from the other forum. Really great info there.

It's kind of interesting what John mentioned. I actually had the best results in my experiments with rear fill by running them down to between 160Hz-190Hz..._and_ with Stereo subs  ...two Infinity Beta 15's, one in each far rear quarter-panel in 1.7cf sealed. This was in a 1993 extended-length Aerostar minivan, rear-fill drivers facing straight forward in the stock locations of the rear hatch lid, using two "stacked" XDP-4000X DSPs and a small pro audio mixer. What was really interesting/weird is what it did with some unusual binaural recordings that I had...some really wacky depth and panning effects.

And I'm not surprised that you like those Satori's. I didn't know about those particular drivers, but I recently used the SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-4 and was very impressed, especially considering their lowish price point.


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The tweet/mid distancing is what attracts me to the 4" AF coaxials. I know they're not phase/aligned on axis, if that's the proper term. However off axis as they'd probably have to be in a discreet a-pillar job, it might just work.

Seeing your tweet placement delimna confirms to me I'd do well to keep mine simple. 

Granted my goal for them wouldn't be anywhere near the razor's edge of absolute best it could be as you've taken your builds. Read as I'm willing for a bunch more compromise in my noisy Si.

If you redid the pillars, which it looks like you are, you think the space would give you more options at all for possibly rotating the tweets maybe above the mids? Or would that cause more issues than solve?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

FWIW, I posted a FS thread for the Kefs last month. I really need these sold, so here's my asking price for anyone interested...


*I'm knocking my asking price down to $325/pair, shipped, CONUS. *
*I will sell all four for $620 shipped, CONUS.*

Original FS thread here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...kef-r-series-concentric-coaxial-speakers.html


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

trying to make a new meet disc for Jason's meet in April. 

pretty sure these are going on there. No, I'm not kidding.


----------



## quality_sound

Can't go wrong with Bobby Brown or Travis Barker. 

Are you going to upload the disc again? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm putting something together for Jason's meet as well. I'm definitely bringing my good laptop and a bunch of blank CD-R's in case I need copies of something or someone wants copies of mine. I did the initial tuning to Erin's last disc he uploaded in FLAC and played it on my tablet through Aux.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Are you going to upload the disc again?


If I have the time I can upload it for you.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Add another to the list of "this is interesting". Ground Zero's GZPT 28SX tweeter:
Plutonium GZPT 28SX

I know Glenn is running these. I found the spec below and it's impressive for a compact dome. Problem is, I want to know what it does off axis as well and can't find that info. And it's not exactly cheap to try. :/


----------



## teldzc1

Every Little Step! Is this version getting in? 

Every Little Step with Mike Tyson & Wayne Brady: http://youtu.be/rMFI-8CIu6E

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

You've probably already heard the SB version but you're more than welcome to isolate and play with my NVX's as well at the meet if I can make it. Size might be an issue. Maybe maybe not. I've been super pleased with them but I've not used very many in car and certainly only this one on axis.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> You've probably already heard the SB version but you're more than welcome to isolate and play with my NVX's as well at the meet if I can make it. Size might be an issue. Maybe maybe not. I've been super pleased with them but I've not used very many in car and certainly only this one on axis.


They look great for the price ($99 via Sonic), but the problem for me is the size. think I read they're around 75mm or so OD. That's over 3/4" larger than the GZ or Scan d3004 tweeters.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> If I have the time I can upload it for you.


That would be awesome.


----------



## Babs

ErinH said:


> They look great for the price ($99 via Sonic), but the problem for me is the size. think I read they're around 75mm or so OD. That's over 3/4" larger than the GZ or Scan d3004 tweeters.



True. If flush mounted with the flange they're whoppers at nearly 3" OD. If I had it to do again I'd have baked the surface-mount cups into the pods for a bunch easier install and smaller "footprint" at something just over 59mm. Flange snaps on/off.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Something else from the list of potential tweeters is the Gladen Aerospace tweeter. A friend sent me his 28mm version to test out and they are definitely noteworthy. 

Started a thread here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...aerospace-28mm-tweeters-objective-review.html


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The specs and your measurements look fantastic on those Aerospace tweeters. But I don't know why they think we need 6 mounting holes for a tiny tweeter. 

...I also can't imagine that they would cost any more than the audio frog tweeters, so... order a pair for me as well.  Thanks for posting your objective tests. Are you going to fire them up for a listening test in the Civic?

If they were physically smaller, I would actually recommend the Hiquphon OW1, even if they are 3/4" domes.

The other Satori drivers have me intrigued, so I just decided to order the Meniscus Audio/Jeff Bagby Kairos kit. The crossover implementation on this kit really got me interested as much as the drivers themselves. But I probably won't have a chance to build them till later this spring.

Anyway, back to the Civic and your tweeter dilemma!


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

My question.... when are you going to go horns?


----------



## jdsoldger

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Woo! Finally finished this whole thing. I want to thank you for posting all this. I will be trying to apply what I have learned and trying some things out for myself in my own build. 

The high sub crossover is very interesting, as I am doing that in my convertable (Mirus 5.25" coaxes in the doors, crossed to the subs around 200hz. DSP going in once the car thaws out, so I will be able to do some tuning finally.)

My DD build is going to be three way with the mid and tweeter in pods on the dash, so this will be very interesting to see your progress on your new setup. Have you found any good reading about lobeing and crossover points/CTC distance? I want to read up on that.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



slade1274 said:


> My question.... when are you going to go horns?


I know you were probably kidding a bit, but it's actually a good question.

I've been tempted a few times but there's no way to physically fit the type of horn system I'd want to use in this car. I am personally not a fan of the small hornbodies/waveguides geared for the car audio market. If I'm going to go horn, I'd want to go with something more along the lines of a SEOS waveguide where I can get directivity lower in to the 800hz ballpark (which would be needed if I were using a 10") for directivity control. Additionally, I HATE the vertical polar of the typical small body horns. I know people love these type of horns in cars. I'm just saying that in my uses and attempts at getting them to work in my car, there is no way I can justify using them because the pros don't outweigh the cons (I actually have a loaner set of USD horns in my garage that I played with a couple years back). I may seriously consider it if I ever get rid of this civic and get a new car. _That _build is gonna be fun. But for now, a mid-high sensitivity driver tuned up right is plenty satisfying in my car.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



jdsoldger said:


> Have you found any good reading about lobeing and crossover points/CTC distance? I want to read up on that.


what specifically do you want to know? it's actually pretty simple. just follow the 1/2 wave rule and you're golden. I posted some about the CTC aspect in an earlier post (one of the ones I pulled over from CAJ and quoted myself on) that might give you some perspective on it.


----------



## jdsoldger

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> what specifically do you want to know? it's actually pretty simple. just follow the 1/2 wave rule and you're golden. I posted some about the CTC aspect in an earlier post (one of the ones I pulled over from CAJ and quoted myself on) that might give you some perspective on it.


Yep, read through that. All there is to it is the 1/2 wavelength rule? I was figuring it may be more involved that that, but if it isn't, piece of cake.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

there is... but at the root of it, if you stick to the 1/2 wave rule you're fine.

crossover slope plays in to this... the further the separation, the higher the slope needs to be. but it's not quite so cut and dry.


----------



## slade1274

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I know you were probably kidding a bit, but it's actually a good question.


You would think so considering the source.... but it was actually a legit question especially with the way the HT went. I figured since you were honest with this change being out of boredom and interest in "something new/different" that it was time you at least give the horns the old college try. Still remember loving the setup at the first meet of yours I came to- can't remember the guy's name, but he was running 8s in the doors and horns off OG soundstream amps.

Also, Mic's BMW back when I competed was a joy as well- moreso from the passenger seat IMHO as it was a two seat tune at the time.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



slade1274 said:


> You would think so considering the source.... but it was actually a legit question especially with the way the HT went. I figured since you were honest with this change being out of boredom and interest in "something new/different" that it was time you at least give the horns the old college try. Still remember loving the setup at the first meet of yours I came to- can't remember the guy's name, but he was running 8s in the doors and horns off OG soundstream amps.
> 
> Also, Mic's BMW back when I competed was a joy as well- moreso from the passenger seat IMHO as it was a two seat tune at the time.


thanks. Erin doesnt like my car tho:bigcry::shrug:


..cant say I blame him sometimes, when he hears it, Its always somewhere in the middle of a tune...Hell I dont even like it with a finished tune sometimes


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

And if USD horns are going to be what you use, you'd be better of not even bothering. I hate those horns SO much.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



slade1274 said:


> Still remember loving the setup at the first meet of yours I came to- can't remember the guy's name, but he was running 8s in the doors and horns off OG soundstream amps.
> 
> Also, Mic's BMW back when I competed was a joy as well- moreso from the passenger seat IMHO as it was a two seat tune at the time.


That was Andrew Smalls. He moved to Virginia... I haven't spoken with him in years... but he still is one of the nicest people I've ever known. 

It's funny you mention those two cars, too (Mic's and Andrew's) as standouts. Those two are part of a small handful of horn cars I would be happy to have as a DD. I don't think the others sounded 'bad', per se. I just didn't feel the benefit was there. And in about 80% of the cases I've heard horn cars, the stage really is well below the horizon... many times at knee height. That's always bugged me.

Anyway, I do plan to play around with HE drivers if I ever get a new car. But the way this car is, there's just no space to do what I want to do if I were using HE drivers. And TBH, I don't really yet see there's a significant advantage enough to tear the civic to shreds to make that happen. Where I've heard a lot of more 'conventional driver' type systems that I would be plenty happy to drive home.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Besides i've heard once you go large format A Pillars you don't go back lol


----------



## subterFUSE

quietfly said:


> Besides i've heard once you go large format A Pillars you don't go back lol



At least until you run over a pedestrian that you couldn't see. ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

My speakers are not remotely in the line of sight. The civic has nice little pocket windows.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

before this thread tailspins from a build log in to a "horns" thread, let me try to nip some things in the bud...

My opinion of high efficiency (HE) system cars is based on what I've heard thus far over the years and also some experience in my own car. I'm not drawing the conclusion they all sound a particular way because, as I stated, there are a few that I've really enjoyed. 

What I am saying is this:
Implementation and tune are factors. IME/IMO the tradeoffs needed to get the HE components implemented properly are tough (ie; the horns physically at the knees under the dash poses a problem for me with both install and acoustic issues, larger midbass required relative to conventional sensitivity drivers in order to achieve the same high pass filter, etc). These are really design things that are trade-offs for the benefits (better dispersion, higher sensitivity). I've unfortunately not heard many cars that were able to overcome these issues for whatever reason and in my car I can't fit 10" HE mids up front nor can I achieve a directivity as low as I need to match to a 10". This is all trickle effect type stuff. 

That's why I'm not running an HE system myself. 

Hope that clears the air. I'm not looking to offend anyone with an HE setup. I don't need pitchforks brought out... I mean, I run JBL 2035's mated to 2446j's for L/C/R in my HT. I'm just stating, as most who use these systems already know, there are trade-offs as there is with any setup. At this point, conventional cone/dome speakers works fine for the civic.


edit: a couple pics of the HT gear so you guys know I'm not hating on HE.


----------



## pionkej

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I chat with Erin on phone about audio ideas we have pretty regularly. I can confirm we have both kicked around the idea of running a HE setup. I personally think it has the best potential for a killer system. It could include good height, width, linearity, and dynamics. The problem is that I also believe it's the hardest to implement. 

The common horn location is below the dash and wide as possible. With this setup I'd say 50% image below the dash which kills realism/believably for me. I've seen some people raise the stage with a "helper tweeter" up high, but to me, that absolutely kills the purpose of horns. To have a driver at 110db spl and unlimited dynamic potential be handcuffed to a conventional 92db spl "helper tweeter" to raise the stage.

If I had a blank slate and wanted to go HE, I'd do it in a truck (Nissan Hardbody extended cab for sentimental reasons). I'd gut the dash and build the waveguide into the top of the dash and utilize the a-pillar, windshield, and dash itself to extend the waveguide. I'd use something like a 12" Pro-audio midbass and I'd remove the bucket seats and put them there (solid mounting location with appropriate airspace). I'd likely have a blowthrough to keep up with low-end output.

Not trying to rant, but simply show Erin and I have kicked the HE idea around and while both of us like the potential, neither of us like it for our current vehicles. And I for one don't have the money to buy/build an entire new vehicle just to try it. So it sits on the "to try wishlist".

Rant off.

Edit: looks like you made a similar point! As an aside, any time I have a bit of extra cash, I do check Craigslist to see if there's somebody selling my "project truck" for a great price!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

tested and reviewed the 5" Satori finally...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...b-acoustics-satori-mw13p-4-5-mid-testing.html


bottom line: very impressive. in the manner I Plan to use them (300-2khz, give or take) they are incredible performers. At 102dB output at 1 meter they have less than 0.30% THD in this bandpass. Crazy...


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> It's funny you mention those two cars, too (Mic's and Andrew's) as standouts. Those two are part of a small handful of horn cars I would be happy to have as a DD.
> 
> .


:bigcry::bigcry:


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ROTFLMAO


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Testing of the GB15 & GB40 are done. I posted up separate threads on them here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...iofrog-gb15-1-5-tweeter-objective-review.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...diofrog-gb40-4-midrange-objective-review.html


----------



## Bluenote

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thank U Erin!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

testing of the smaller neo magnet version of the Scan 10f is done and can be found here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...parisons/173547-scan-speak-discovery-10f.html


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for the latest round of test Erin. :thumbsup:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

JL ZR800 testing here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-zr800-cw-8-midbass-objective-review.html


Pretty much what I knew all along. Excellent midbass with extremely low dostortion.


----------



## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> JL ZR800 testing here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-zr800-cw-8-midbass-objective-review.html
> 
> 
> Pretty much what I knew all along. Excellent midbass with extremely low dostortion.


Thanks for the new reviews.

What ever happened to poly cones anyway? They seem to have great attributes, yet everything seems to be paper (blend) or aluminum these days. Any thoughts?


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Orion525iT said:


> Thanks for the new reviews.
> 
> What ever happened to poly cones anyway? They seem to have great attributes, yet everything seems to be paper (blend) or aluminum these days. Any thoughts?


I thought Curv was going to hit the market pretty hard but besides a token couple, 30% more rigid with more internal loss, didn't make a dent?

You get the same relaxed upper band smoothiness of mica-filled poly but better specs across the board, and nobody cares.


----------



## quietfly

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

does anyone use Curv in speakers?


----------



## plushterry

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Such a good thread man. Thanks!


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Seas does. They have a few different sizes with CURV cones.



quietfly said:


> does anyone use Curv in speakers?


----------



## Black Rain

I have a stupid question, but what is Curv? I understand poly-mica but never heard of Curve.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Black Rain said:


> I have a stupid question, but what is Curv? I understand poly-mica but never heard of Curve.


FUSION Electronics

SEAS CURV

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n/69884-curv-speaker-cones-who-uses-them.html


----------



## Black Rain

Thanks Erin. So after reading those I now understand. It reminds me of the old Pioneer imPP cone speakers of the late 90s which the technology seems to have just disappeared all together.


----------



## teldzc1

From what I've read, the SS 10F is a better performer overall than the Seas Curv cones. Looks like the CSS VWR126 used one although not sure it was specified.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

couple more driver tests posted up:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...aerospace-20mm-tweeters-objective-review.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n-speak-illuminator-d3004-602000-tweeter.html


----------



## DLO13

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just curious....
You are currently testing what looks to be a good amount of drivers... How will this influence your future gear choice, and do you plan on making changes anytime soon?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm on the tweeter hunt, so that's what kicked off this testing, actually. I see pros/cons with each of the tweeters I've tested recently. it's just a matter of weighing them, really.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



DLO13 said:


> Just curious....
> You are currently testing what looks to be a good amount of drivers... How will this influence your future gear choice, and do you plan on making changes anytime soon?





ErinH said:


> I'm on the tweeter hunt, so that's what kicked off this testing, actually. I see pros/cons with each of the tweeters I've tested recently. it's just a matter of weighing them, really.


Send him your Illusion tweeters for testing Daniel! I'll pitch in a few bucks for shipping to one of your PayPals.  I'd offer up mine, but they are kind of in use.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

the past couple weeks I've been playing with the tweeters and I finally decided to put something down on paper... so like most reasons for posting updates to a build log, it's time for a brain dump...


One thing that has bothered me about my car for a long time is how the stage on the left starts closer to me and pushes away on the right. Hardest thing for me to tune *out*... I can't really do it because there's just some hard reflections off the side window. So, I decided I'd try some different things. 

I played around with two primary tweeter locations:
a) dash/windshield corners
b) sail panels with some variation of aiming on the sails just to see what results I'd get

Here's an illustration of the two setups:







next...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Rather than rely solely on my ear, I measured the response of the Scan-Speak D3004/602000 tweeter in each of these with the RTA and compared the results between themselves *and also against the anechoic response of the D3004 to see if I could get an idea of what the car was doing vs what the tweeter itself does: this is my 'baseline'.*

*Test conditions:*
I'm measuring with my body in the car and mic facing up, sweeping an average head area in REW. I'm also using a 24dB slope at 2500hz in the car to protect the tweeters. Also, in the car, I didn't adjust volume when I moved the tweeters between sails and corners. So the results show the actual SPL difference. 


*Test Results:*

The legend at the bottom of the graph describes the aiming, so use that in conjunction with the drawings I gave above.





















*Objective Analysis:*

Corner loading does more than I expected it would... Ignoring the dips, corner loading seems to result in the flattest response with only one or two bands of EQ, tops. Look at the low frequency extension. And the high frequency extension. You can see this in the one octave results. Looking at the results in 1/6 shows the variations in response at the sails is a lot less severe than at the corners. If you look at 1/6 resolution you'll see it a lot easier. The response delta in the sails is around +/-1.5. the response at the corners is +/-3. So there's more combing at the dash corners but the overall trend at 1 octave is a lot more low AND high end extension. The sail panel results mimic more of the anechoic measurements with the rise around 8khz. BUT, how much does combing at that high of a frequency matter?... I'll address that in the next post. 

Output level change on the left corner vs sail compared to the right is about 10dB vs 3dB. Makes sense. The left tweeter is about twice as far from me in the dash corner compared to the sails. On the right side the distance difference is a lot closer to the same. If I swept the radius from me to my right sail and my right corner it's not as large a difference between those two compared to the left side distance difference. And the measurements support that.

Turning the tweeters on/off axis (in these tests) has little impact on the measured response. There is some deviation but it's only about 1dB or so in 1/3 octave resolution (not pictured). 



.....


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Alright, so the data was collected and all that jazz. Now what? Next up was to listen and see if I could do some sort of comparison between the two locations (sail and dash corner) in subjective terms. It's important to note that I didn't use any EQ in my subjective analysis (nor did I in the measurements above). I listened to only tweeter+mid because I wanted to see what effect the tweeters have on the upper end response in the different location/angles. However, for the subjective, I did level matching and T/A adjustments to sync the tweeters up with the midranges; otherwise it wouldn't have been a fair comparison. I used the following tracks for my evaluation:



















The first two because of the width they have in them... not just cues, but real width. The last track because of the various high frequency content.




*Subjective Analysis:*

Rather than type out a lot of buzz words, I decided to throw together a little diagram shown below. Blue is the approximate acoustic boundary with the tweeters in the dash corners and red is the approximate acoustic boundaries with the tweeters at the sails. (when I say boundary, I don't mean hard lines... these are just rough sketches)






Two key 'stage boundary' takeaways:
1) Width - See there's no distinction between width for the sail vs dash corner? That's because with every song I threw at it, the 'real' width (I don't know what else to call it, so bear with me). It's just some artifacts in the music that occassionally jump out wide but it doesn't really increase the stage width. For example, a Sax may jump out to the left a foot but it just sounds _weird_. It's not even supposed to be there... why did it go so far out? I've noticed this before when I had sail panels and it was a reason I got rid of the car. I thought tweaking the angle of the sail tweeters might help but it never did. Actually, when I cross-fired the left tweeter the sound actually suffered even more; the pseudo-width was slightly there but there was an obvious disconnect. And remember, I T/A'd and level matched the setups to the midranges. And, still, there's that annoying stage skew factor...

2) Speaking of stage skew... the width doesn't change BUT notice how the stage on the left starts closer with the sail install (as I tried to illustrate with the red line)? I don't get this result with the tweeters at the dash. My car isn't the only car I've noticed this in... I've noticed it in a LOT of sail-tweeter systems (not knocking, just relaying my experience). Sometimes that may sound like increased width but what it sounds to me is a stage skew. Drives me nuts! As for my car, I'm not the only person who's noticed this. captainobvious noticed this in my car at Finals last year as did a judge I really respect. It's just something I dealt with. 

To sum that up:
Regarding width, the more I play with stereos in home and car the more I am convinced that it's primarily driven by the midrange location and primary side reflection point. Every midrange setup I hear with the drivers in the dash corners seem to be less wide than cars with midranges that reflect off the side glass. That's just a general observation. Furthermore, when I disable the tweeters, the width doesn't really change. I may lose maybe 5% of semblance of width, but by and large the acoustic width doesn't change with the tweeters even turned off.

I've found moving the tweeters around have less impact on width. Putting them in the sails adds some to it but it's a weird sort of width... And the downside to that is the side glass reflection always causes that "near you" sound... At least in my car. I have heard it in others as well... And that's something I've never really been able to "tune" out. Drives me nuts! And just for icing on the cake, I read a study a while back with some grad students testing binaural measurements in a Volvo car using different configurations. Ultimately they showed that IACC is the determining factor for ASW (apparent source width) and in the car environment, IACC above 1khz is so low, they discontinued analyzing it. Which lends credence to the notion that tweeters (the ones that don't play below 1khz, at least ) have little to no impact on stage width in a car. Here's the study: http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1617/2008/101/LTU-EX-08101-SE.pdf



*I'm a judge!?*

So, beyond those two boundary aspects, I did my own subjective 'scoring' of the "out of the box" (no EQ) system performance with the tweeters in the two configurations. This is totally subjective... just some rough ballpark numbers so I could see how one configuration fares against another in some key elements we listen for. This is what I came up with (each score is out of a maximum '10'):

[




*Subjective Conclusion:*

As you can see, I favored the corner tweeter install overall by about 8 points in my own little subjective listening evaluation. The standouts to me were in tonality and stage height. The stage height with the corners was eye level whereas with the sails the height was at about my neck. Tonally, the sails would need some work; it may simply be the humped response as shown in the graphs in the previous post. But the sound was glaring on the left sail install; the right side was fine. Another aspect I liked tonally about the corners was the top end was SO much more apparent. I literally heard a few sounds/ambiance that I have never heard before in a particular track. I played through some additional tracks and it was pretty obvious the corner install is the best option. 

Note: I measured with the tweeters in various azimuth and elevation angles at the sails. I provided the few I _measured_. One of those was with the tweeter at 60 deg off-axis. I didn't measure _all _the configurations I listened and played around with (such as: cross firing both, upward toward the dome light, etc). At the end of it, they all sounded similar at this location and I still had particular glaring (no pun intended) issues.

Curious about the comb filtering measured in the dash install, I did some digging and found this site:
Perceptual Aspects of Room Reflections and Acoustics

Reading through that, my results jive pretty well; though the measurement at 1/6 octave show combing, the 1 octave (and not posted 1/3 octave) smoothing shows a MUCH nicer response; extended both on the low and high end vs the sail panel configuration. 




All that to say this: as it stands now I'm convinced my objective analysis backs up my subjective findings that the corner locations are the best overall place to install these particular tweeters (because it's possible different tweeters with more directivity may be OK in the sails) in my car. The out of the box performance is really surprising here. The location of the tweeters had practically zero effect on acoustic width and actually had better focus. 

As with everything subjective, YMMV. But, hopefully this brain dump will inspire some folks to consider doing something similar with a future build/upgrade.


----------



## eddieg

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hi Erin, 

Following the thread and last post I have a question - what would happen if you would put the tweeters into a wave guide and now try to place them back at the sails panel? 

Would that solve the near field power boost that drove you out of your mind? 

Or is it also caused because the left tweeter is just too close to the head and it causes power response issues? 


I'm using mid-tweeters or should I say widebanders inserted in pods - so I am a victim for beaming issues due to that but in order to determine where to place them, I've installed them on adjustable arms (sockets) made out of "RAM mounts" products 

B size ball bases and short double ball socket arms and double ball extension rods (oh my that sounds soooo bad reading it)

So I am able to move them around - the bases are screwed to the a-pillars and to the pods on the other hand - I can move them around without unplugging them while they are still playing (binding posts on the a-pillars and from there a free wire to the pods)
all the way from the dash corners until they've reached the sail panels.

First location I liked was - on the axis of the a-pillar - same distance between the front windsheild to the window glass 

The issues there was indeed width - and as these are mids - yes, it impacted the stage width.

So I've taken them more towards the sailpanels and width is improved dramatically. 

The two reason I think why I less encounter phantom effects are due to the fact that they are beaming (playing from 1.2Khz until 20hz) and the pods are wider than the speaker so it acts a bit as a wave guide. 

They are tuned on-axis directly towards the head - I have a feeling that I've used the fact that they are beaming to benefit from it in a way.

The Midtweeters are CDT ES-02

Would like your opinion about this - reading your material all the time and enjoying!


----------



## Hanatsu

Nice evaluation on speaker placement! I've done a fair bit of testing too but I haven't documented it as well as you. My opinion is that the midrange placement is responsable for the majority of the perceived stage width. I usually place tweeters in pillars and midranges in sails. In the cars I experimented in, I found that this yielded best results. I think the staging issues you mentioned is related to an "un-even" amount of reflection energy that reach your ears. The side windows could probably be the main contributor to this. Place left speaker so more refections hit the left side (driver side) window to even it out. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin,
As you know I'm looking at testing a new setup. I wanted to see if you could post a pic of the tweets in the corner, to see how they look in relation to the mids in the pillar?


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I concur with Erin. My sail tweeters add some ambience width but only with the right tracks. Otherwise at best it increases my primary width maybe an inch or so over when they are not playing. 

When I listened to John's (jpionke) Murano last summer his tweeters added more than mine. But, I'm pretty sure he has a lower xo than I do, so more information is coming from those speakers.


----------



## Elgrosso

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very cool measurements! How long did it take you to do all this? I'd imagine like a day!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bigbubba said:


> Erin,
> As you know I'm looking at testing a new setup. I wanted to see if you could post a pic of the tweets in the corner, to see how they look in relation to the mids in the pillar?


if you're familiar with my setup (which I'm pretty sure you are), the tweeters are at the far corners of the dash, facing toward the driver (rather than up-firing from the stock location). that help?


----------



## pionkej

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*



pocket5s said:


> When I listened to John's (jpionke) Murano last summer his tweeters added more than mine. But, I'm pretty sure he has a lower xo than I do, so more information is coming from those speakers.



Robert,

My tweeters are crossed at 3.5khz. The reason my tweeters work were they do is based off of aiming and type (ring radiator). I aimed both tweeters at the dome lamp. This places my ears approximately 15 degrees off-axis for both sides (mechanically balanced left and right). More importantly, ring radiators off-axis response significantly drops off at around the 60 degree mark. My tweeter aiming shifts both sides at 60 degrees or more from the windshield and side glass. This helps control reflections which plays into speaker localization. Since my tweeters aren't easily localized, perceived width is driven by my mids (which also have controlled reflections by placing them in the corner of the dash). 

To those reading this, please note there is a specific reason why I aimed my tweeters at the dome lamp, and it was determined by trial and error. I want to point this out because there are some "how to's" out there that arbitrarily say to aim them that way, which DOES NOT always work based on my listening experience.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> if you're familiar with my setup (which I'm pretty sure you are), the tweeters are at the far corners of the dash, facing toward the driver (rather than up-firing from the stock location). that help?


Kinda. I was curious as to line of sight wise how it looks. I believe your mids will be more tucked in to that small window and still allow you to have a tweeter in the pillar/windshield corner without blocking it. Mine will be completely blocked so I will have to find another spot for the tweeter. Possibly sail panel or close by.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Firstly my thought was holy crap!! Erin's come full circle back to stock spots! Of course, however, I understand it's just the location being assessed and not the actual orientation firing up into the glass, that's found itself to be good from your obj/subj measurements and assessments.

Very subjectively, I definitely know my stage isn't "over the hood" now but "in my face" since doing the pillars. I can definitely imagine what you were hearing.

So... Logistically, how? 

If I understand correctly you're considering mounting the tweets in dash corners, which I would LOVE to see how that turns out knowing the 8th civ sedan dash intimately. And I assume at some more on-axis am point. One possible might be a fab job utilizing the stock tweet grills maybe as a base for a pod? I've contemplated that more times than I care to admit but had always abandoned it due to 1. prejudgement the location was inherently bad for combing, and 2. that is a VERY tight area, the way our dashes are right up against the glass all lamborghini-like.

At edge of my seat now on this one. 

Had often thought the two dash corner spots were kind of a sloppy "horn" of sorts.


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## ErinH

bigbubba said:


> Kinda. I was curious as to line of sight wise how it looks. I believe your mids will be more tucked in to that small window and still allow you to have a tweeter in the pillar/windshield corner without blocking it. Mine will be completely blocked so I will have to find another spot for the tweeter. Possibly sail panel or close by.



Crappy phone pic alert!!!!











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

so, tweeters into the far dash corners moves the near (left) side stage bias, forward, into a more symmetrical presentation?

and the cost of reflection-taint, is more of a theoretical complaint?

looking at your rational rating scale, is this near side bias also happening for you with the Kef point sources?

also, if the few momentary shifts to the artificially wide image of a sail tweeter lends one to have unreliable markers in the memory, does the forward dash spot solidify this for you, and if so, is it worth it, if an occasional "wow, that is wide.." moment doesn't happen anymore?

I have had this happen myself, but when the image did that magical expanse, it was always dependent on frequency and usually narrow band, or only happened with a particular instrument, not the whole left side of the stage.

Have you tried the far dash with an absorptive dash mat yet? Something more than what you have now?


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## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks so much for the effort, thanks for putting objective data behind your subjective listening, and thanks for the links to relevant research. 



ErinH said:


> 2) Speaking of stage skew... the width doesn't change BUT notice how the stage on the left starts closer with the sail install (as I tried to illustrate with the red line)? I don't get this result with the tweeters at the dash. My car isn't the only car I've noticed this in... I've noticed it in a LOT of sail-tweeter systems (not knocking, just relaying my experience). Sometimes that may sound like increased width but what it sounds to me is a stage skew. Drives me nuts! As for my car, I'm not the only person who's noticed this. captainobvious noticed this in my car at Finals last year as did a judge I really respect. It's just something I dealt with.


I have mentioned this in a few other threads, but I think this is why I keep going back to kicks after trying sails and A-pillars. The inherent side bias is there out of the box. You can TA and EQ so that it measures well, but every time I have done that, there is still something "wrong" about it. Something always sounded wonked. I attributed this to combing, but your analysis sheds some light on some things I was missing. I never took extensive measurements, I just moved everything down to the kicks, and thought, "well, that's so much better."

I will most likely leave my mids in the kicks, but will give the dash tweeter location another go. Your observation about width and reflection off the side glass makes me want to play around with reflecting/absorbing surfaces near the mids. 

All in all, great information. I appreciate that you are one of the guys that puts the mic into the equation, as opposed to relying solely on subjective mealymouthed mobo jumbo. I feel like I am actually learning something.


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## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Crappy phone pic alert!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I thought...you suck.  Wish my dash layout was like that. I may have to get a little creative.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It seems there is some confusion so let me clarify some things I mentioned in my writeup I'm noticing in my car experiments that are not the same:
1) Stage Skew on Nearside (the front part of the overall stage depth being acoustically closer on the left than the right side) 
2) Stage Width

While they are _somewhat_ intertwined, the issues can be split. 
With the former, it's an issue due to the nearside glass reflections and it makes no difference how I turn the tweeters in my testing which took them from running parallel with the side window glass to cross-firing to the other side of the car. This location affects the tonality and staging considerably and I've always just tuned around it. I can say from years of experience that I have tried numerous ways to alleviate this but what happens then is I attenuate a particular band, delay the tweeter or attenuate the tweeter level itself enough to mitigate this issue but that results in my acoustic center being out of whack and the tonality suffers still. *I only have that stage skew due to high frequency.* The midrange doesn't cause it. This happened with sail panel tweeters, but this also happened in all my iterations of using the tweeter in the pillar area; including the Kef. Moving the left tweeter far to the dash got rid of that issue while not impacting width, which leads me in to this...

The latter (width) falls in to it's own category in regards to the fact that the location of the tweeter at the sail doesn't _improve_ the width. Shutting my tweeters off alone shows me that the tweeters themselves have practically no impact on the acoustic stage width boundaries.



Now, keep in mind, this is my car, and a particular tweeter. As I mentioned earlier and as John also noted, the dispersion of the tweeter plays in to this. My car windshield also has a very raked slope ... possibly about 30 degrees ... that I can only imagine helps because it acts more to 'guide' the tweeter than would a windshield angled at 50 degrees. This is why I said my post was more of a brain dump about my car and my experiences than telling people what to do with their car.


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## DLO13

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> It seems there is some confusion so let me clarify some things I mentioned in my writeup I'm noticing in my car experiments that are not the same:
> 1) Stage Skew on Nearside (the front part of the overall stage depth being acoustically closer on the left than the right side)
> 2) Stage Width
> 
> While they are _somewhat_ intertwined, the issues can be split.
> With the former, it's an issue due to the nearside glass reflections and it makes no difference how I turn the tweeters in my testing which took them from running parallel with the side glass to cross-firing to the other side of the car. This affects the tonality and staging considerably. I can say from years of experience that I can try numerous ways to alleviate this but what happens then is I attenuate a particular band, delay the tweeter or attenuate the tweeter level itself enough to mitigate this issue but that results in my acoustic center being out of whack and the tonality suffers still. *I only have that stage skew due to high frequency.* The midrange doesn't cause it. This happened with sail panel tweeters, but this also happened in all my iterations of using the tweeter in the pillar area; including the Kef. Moving the left tweeter far to the dash got rid of that issue while not impacting width, which leads me in to this...
> 
> The latter (width) falls in to it's own category in regards to the fact that the location of the tweeter at the sail doesn't _improve_ the width. Shutting my tweeters off alone shows me that the tweeters themselves have practically no impact on the acoustic stage width boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, keep in mind, this is my car, and a particular tweeter. As I mentioned earlier and as John also noted, the dispersion of the tweeter plays in to this. My car windshield also has a very raked slope ... possibly about 30 degrees ... that I can only imagine helps because it acts more to 'guide' the tweeter than would a windshield angled at 50 degrees. This is why I said my post was more of a brain dump about my car and my experiences than telling people what to do with their car.


When you say glass, you are talking about the windows, not the windshield, correct? If that is the case, i say you roll your windows down :laugh:

Clearly your methodology is more scientific than anything i am capable of, but i do want to say that in my prius, which has a similar windshield angle if i remember correctly, the imaging with my AP 3s in the stock locations was reallllly impressive.

I have discussed the possibility of moving away from the illusion point source and running a 5" mid in my pillars and returning a large tweeter into my stock 3" speaker locations in the corners of my dash.... This recent discussion makes me want to do it even more.... but i haven't even got my system fully tuned yet, so i cant start ditching gear... can i?

Thanks for the research!


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



DLO13 said:


> When you say glass, you are talking about the windows, not the windshield, correct?


Yep. Should've clarified! :/
Edited the post. 




DLO13 said:


> but i haven't even got my system fully tuned yet, so i cant start ditching gear... can i?
> 
> Thanks for the research!


Who needs a tune to write off and ditch old gear?! :laugh:


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

at what point does the glass angle become "all comb filter-ey, and plagued by reflections/higher order modes" and does this lend itself to a scale?

I remember it was a credo, that some vehicles had natural dash driven imaging that in later years became outmoded by A-Pillar wizardry.

I see here, that the narrow angle presentation is more horn-like, in that the proximity to the glass keeps the wavefront concise and less prone to comb filtering effects from low treble cancellation nodes.


now I understand that we're only talking about a particular install and particular speakers, but I think we can generalize that the A-Pillar tweeter isn't always "worth it" when it comes to aesthetics of having tell-tale bulges on the sight line vs. the invisible dash, OEM mount.

I like this current triangulation, I think anything that leads people to be happy with their design choices is a boon today.

And many people prefer the logistics of a dash tweeter, without building out from the natural landscape.


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I am wondering if I can get a virtual speaker image firing the midrange up at the dash that is wider than putting them in the doors.

Cue werewolf and the ECA thread about domes on the dash...Jeff, where are you old friend?


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> I am wondering if I can get a virtual speaker image firing the midrange up at the dash that is wider than putting them in the doors.
> 
> Cue werewolf and the ECA thread about domes on the dash...Jeff, where are you old friend?


Do remember that thread  

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

There are 15 pages of that thread on the Wayback machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070403...om/showthread.php?threadid=96808&pagenumber=1

Not all of them are there though


----------



## Hanatsu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Orion525iT said:


> Thanks so much for the effort, thanks for putting objective data behind your subjective listening, and thanks for the links to relevant research.
> 
> 
> 
> I have mentioned this in a few other threads, but I think this is why I keep going back to kicks after trying sails and A-pillars. The inherent side bias is there out of the box. You can TA and EQ so that it measures well, but every time I have done that, there is still something "wrong" about it. Something always sounded wonked. I attributed this to combing, but your analysis sheds some light on some things I was missing. I never took extensive measurements, I just moved everything down to the kicks, and thought, "well, that's so much better."
> 
> I will most likely leave my mids in the kicks, but will give the dash tweeter location another go. Your observation about width and reflection off the side glass makes me want to play around with reflecting/absorbing surfaces near the mids.
> 
> All in all, great information. I appreciate that you are one of the guys that puts the mic into the equation, as opposed to relying solely on subjective mealymouthed mobo jumbo. I feel like I am actually learning something.


I've noticed that if you EQ passenger side to have 1-5dB less energy from 2-15kHz it stages better. It "only" works (or at least works better) when speakers are directly on-axis though. The side window reflections is the main issue I believe, if the reflected energy from 'right speaker to left window' is higher than 'left speaker to right side window' it needs to be EQed lower than the other tweeter, even though both sides measure equal. 

If we play a speaker at 90dB with a long reflected path vs a speaker that also plays 90dB but with a short reflected path the one with the more "direct sound" sounds attenuated. At least I believe so, this is conjecture at this point as I don't know the exact reason for the effect.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Crappy phone pic alert!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I suspect if combing isn't an issue, the potential may be really good. On fabricating there, depending on tweeter size, it's certainly do-able, in both cleanliness and without affecting visibility. One idea would be glassing in a wedge-back'd pod mounted somehow.. Probably not enough room to attach to the stock grills then actually get the grills into place, but possibly just velcro'd to the grills maybe. Hmm wonder about some nice mid with 3" total OD that could fit where my big tweets are now in pillar pods? You got me thinking now.


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## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think Erin has a lot of us thinking with this post. I made the move from tweeters in my dash location to tweeters in my sails, and I do feel like there were some trade offs. It wasn't all for the better. I'll soon be moving to a 3-way + sub active setup with my midbass in my doors and midrange in my stock dash (former tweeter) location. This latest round of testing from Erin has me wondering if it would be worth testing the tweeters tucked into the corners of my dash rather than the sails. 

This shows where the midrange will be mounted (with a baffle to separate the front and backwave), and its relative location to the current tweeter installation. 









And this is the grill the midrange will fire up through. Taking a page from Erin's observations, the tweeter would likely stay in the same Focal tweeter cup and get tucked into the corner and mounted onto the grill (after playing with aiming). My biggest concern would likely be the tweeter and cup blocking the midrange.


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## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> It seems there is some confusion so let me clarify some things I mentioned in my writeup I'm noticing in my car experiments that are not the same:
> 1) Stage Skew on Nearside (the front part of the overall stage depth being acoustically closer on the left than the right side)
> 2) Stage Width
> 
> While they are _somewhat_ intertwined, the issues can be split.
> With the former, it's an issue due to the nearside glass reflections and it makes no difference how I turn the tweeters in my testing which took them from running parallel with the side window glass to cross-firing to the other side of the car. This location affects the tonality and staging considerably and I've always just tuned around it. I can say from years of experience that I have tried numerous ways to alleviate this but what happens then is I attenuate a particular band, delay the tweeter or attenuate the tweeter level itself enough to mitigate this issue but that results in my acoustic center being out of whack and the tonality suffers still. *I only have that stage skew due to high frequency.* The midrange doesn't cause it. This happened with sail panel tweeters, but this also happened in all my iterations of using the tweeter in the pillar area; including the Kef. Moving the left tweeter far to the dash got rid of that issue while not impacting width, which leads me in to this...
> 
> The latter (width) falls in to it's own category in regards to the fact that the location of the tweeter at the sail doesn't _improve_ the width. Shutting my tweeters off alone shows me that the tweeters themselves have practically no impact on the acoustic stage width boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, keep in mind, this is my car, and a particular tweeter. As I mentioned earlier and as John also noted, the dispersion of the tweeter plays in to this. My car windshield also has a very raked slope ... possibly about 30 degrees ... that I can only imagine helps because it acts more to 'guide' the tweeter than would a windshield angled at 50 degrees. This is why I said my post was more of a brain dump about my car and my experiences than telling people what to do with their car.


Agreed. My Golf with QTD25s in the sails firing cross-car had HUGE width (past the mirrors on both sides) with zero eq and only quick TA. The stage skewed as you're mentioning. At least 4" closer sounding on the driver's side.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> I am wondering if I can get a virtual speaker image firing the midrange up at the dash that is wider than putting them in the doors.
> 
> Cue werewolf and the ECA thread about domes on the dash...Jeff, where are you old friend?


he was here, looky-loo just yesterday in the Linkwitz Transform thread, it must be like phantom pains for the lycan..


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> I think Erin has a lot of us thinking with this post.


good. 

I don't want to start people down the path of thinking the sails are bad and the corners are best. And I don't want people to fall over themselves trying to prove me wrong when I said tweeters in the sails didn't add width. I'm not looking at this as providing the 'end all, be all' type of analysis. 

I do, however, want to get people thinking about the merits of testing different locations to see what works best in their car with their choice of speaker. And also to provide some thought in to speaker choices; if you can get an understanding of the install location chosen, maybe you can find a speaker better suited for that. For example, if you are limited to a stock install only that uses corner only tweeters then _*maybe *_a ring radiator that has directivity at 2khz fire up toward the glass is a lesser choice than a smaller dome with less directivity. Heck, look at how the crossover location and slope can easily be different between my two location options if I want to target a specific slope (such as an LR4 slope). The windshield definitely provides lower end response which could mean I can increase my electrical crossover slope, protect the tweeter a bit more and still achieve the desired acoustic crossover between it and the midrange.

I will say my results surprised me. When I listened to the tweeters at the dash I knew it sounded much more stable and the system blended with the mids better there but I wanted some sort of measurements that could possibly explain why. Still not there yet, but it's cool stuff, nonetheless!


----------



## Babs

Yep. And every car presents different scenarios, compromises and areas that are better than others for placements. It's not all about the driver choice by any means. 

I'm gonna pull the flanges off the NVX's and try them in my 8th up there. As a large ring radiator that can cross electrically quite low it'd definitely be interesting. Might even be better than the pods I fab'd which would really torque me off. hehehe.. Month of sundays went into those things.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for the feedback Erin. Very interesting. In my very limited experience in my xB (and soon to test in my wife's xB) the stock dash location with the tweeters crossed at 2-2.5 kHz @ 24 dB gave me better stage depth than my sail panels, but also tended to smear the stage quite a bit on some songs. (Not sure if this was due to the windshield angle, the grills, or...?) Going to sails with a similar crossover tightened the focus up a bit, but also made the stage a bit more shallow. I initially thought it also helped with width, but the longer I've lived with it the more it seems like the anomalies in width that you described previously. All of this with the 6.5" mids in the not so great stock door locations. 

I'm curious to see how adding the midrange in the stock dash location and experimenting with tweeter location and crossovers again will affect the staging.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I spent 2 weeks with my pillars removed and using double sided tape, sticking my cheater tweeters in about a dozen different locations and angles. It wasn't till the day before Freeze Fest that I perminately mounted them where I thought they sounded the best. I know my car doesn't sound great. I feel it is getting better and I think having my tweets where I last put them helped a lot. Now that I'm looking to test a little different setup I can't use that same location and I have to do this all over again, which is to be expected when in the search for better sound quality. 

I'd like to find out a little more on how you went about using REW to determine what speaker position might provide you the best sound/imaging.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Almost makes you wanna place and process a couple pairs of the same tweet with T/A and crossover points, then A/B test like a mad man using the DSP tool to kill and activate channels. As I was considering the same tweets for the truck, might a quite the experiment.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

carrying over Steve's question from CAJ...




captainobvious said:


> Erin-
> 
> Did you take any measurements in the corners at different angles besides on axis? I'm curious if that would make a significant difference.


I did today! 

NO EQ on these measurements. And I didn't touch the volume so you can compare the up-firing vs on-axis SPL accurately.

*Left Side Results:*
Up-firing in the stock location vs on-axis (as shown already):




Smoothed to 1 octave:





*Right Side Results:*
Up-firing in the stock location vs on-axis (as shown already):



1/6 Octave:




1 Octave:





*Thoughts:*

So on the left side, you see even more gain below 6khz when upfiring with the output maxed out about 4dB and above 6khz the output is raised about 1.5-2dB. Significant comb null at 6.2khz with about a 12dB dip and a 2nd dip at 10khz of about 5-6dB. Worth also noting is the up-firing response rolls off a touch sooner (about 12khz vs 16khz). 
Same story for the right in terms of linearity: the up-firing position again shows it's the worse performer with more combing going on and again a lower high frequency rolloff point, though the output has increased by as much as 5dB. 

Overall, I expected the up-firing position to be worse than the on-axis. So no shock there. However, I'm just still impressed by how good the corner locations work out and how linear the response is using those locations. The on-axis response is incredibly flat at 1 octave... I mean... dang. The left side needs no EQ, really, and the right side needs one band of PEQ at 5.2khz to flatten out the big peak. It's really surprising, at least to me, to see these results.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^Nice, Erin!

Incidentally, in the Aerostar minivan install that I referred to earlier, where you are testing the tweeters now is where I ended up placing my QTD25 tweeters, aimed mostly on axis.  I also tried the LPG 26NFA tweeters from the Diamond Audio HEX comp kit. Both tweeters were nice, just different tradeoffs. This is way before I started using RTA or measurements. The Aerostar has those same side-corner windows at the base of the windshield/pillars just like your Civic, and a fairly swept back windshield angle as well.

I used a hole saw and then dremel to make the holes in the A-pillar trim panels, so that the tweeters were tucked back into the lower-forward corner of that pillar "port hole" trim. If I can find the photos you'll see the empty holes where I also experimented with the tweeters higher up on the pillar about 8-9" above the dash...which resulted in worse reflections off of the side glass and more side bias & a skewed stage...just like you said, imaging closer to you on the left. I simply covered the entire pillars with color-matched grill cloth and had a perfectly stealth install. No one really had any idea that there were tweeters up there, and I think that might have helped eliminate the psycho-acoustic effect of seeing where the physical speaker locations were.

I also experimented with the QTD-100 4" mids in the stock locations on top of the dash firing up in the far forward L & R corners. I spent A LOT of time and energy fabricating enclosures for those locations out of fiberglass, 4" ABS pipe, and then added an "extension tube" of 1/4" wall thickness x 3" diameter clear vinyl tubing that I could bend under & around obstacles in the under-dash area in order to gain more enclosure volume...also stuffed them with polyfill. The stage and tonality was _okay_ with the 4" mids in this location, but imaging was still too diffuse for my liking, it had some left-side bias, and the stage width was not bad, but just meh.

So I scrapped that idea and built silmilar sealed enclosures for the 4" mids in the forward and upper part of the door panels. I also had 6.5 mids below the 4" mids in custom baffles in a trapezoid-shaped area just below the door handles. The mids were angled up and back towards my listening position to be more on-axis, and the 6.5" mids were angled as well, but not as much so as to not stick out too far. These baffles were also completely covered with grill cloth for stealthiness. FYI , there were no OEM speaker locations in the front doors of these vehicles, just that trapezoid-shaped area which was just a decorative (and removable), recessed cloth covered panel. This speaker placement worked much better. Width, tonality, and imaging/staging/focus were all much better. It still suffered from just a bit of left side bias tho.

Just for reference, I was using the Sony ES CDX-C910 HU and XDP-4000x processor combined with some custom passive X/O's that the awesome guys at Speaker City in Burbank, CA helped me design. 

I also tried the 4" mids in the kickpanels, but they suffered in output potential and were blocked quite a bit by my legs and the driver's seat. The seating position is very tall and upright in this vehicle and I wanted a good "tune" from my daily driving seat position...really didn't help that I'm 5'-5", LOL.

I'll try to dig up some of my old analog photos of this install to post up. The photos below aren't of my vehicle, but just some generic photos of the same vehicle for speaker placement reference...please excuse the amateur notations done quick-and-dirty-like on my Galaxy Note...Oh, the 4" MB Quart mid is a #QWD-100, not QTW-100 that I noted in the door panel photo.


----------



## Babs

What's interesting Erin, I don't recall ever anyone actually testing and measuring the 8th civ stock locations in all the time we've owned these cars. You're the first AFAIK. Shows while the up firing orientation is not so good, the actual location itself isn't all that bad. I had quietly suspected this for a long time. Damn and I worked so hard on those tweet pods! Hehe. The real fun would be masking and taping off those corners for glassing pods. If you had 4' long arms maybe.


----------



## DLO13

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> If You had 4' long arms maybe.



Man up and remove the windshield.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> The real fun would be masking and taping off those corners for glassing pods. If you had 4' long arms maybe.


I actually asked Steve Cook and a couple others what they'd recommend for a quick/easy install and they said to use non-hardening modeling clay to mold the shape I want, press the tweeter in, pop the clay out and just cover the pod how I want. Simple and effective. So, I'll give that a go.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I actually asked Steve Cook and a couple others what they'd recommend for a quick/easy install and they said to use non-hardening modeling clay to mold the shape I want, press the tweeter in, pop the clay out and just cover the pod how I want. Simple and effective. So, I'll give that a go.


Something interesting to try would be making/molding your own chamber for the tweeter. Something not pricey at first of course. That way you could further bury it into the corner and move the combing frequency even higher up. As well as gaining more waveguide _type_ loading in the lower ones.

I've often wondered just how crucial chamber geometry is for tweeters and/or mid domes when it comes to car audio apps. Mainly to try and get away with squeezing a high sensitivity dome mid into a molded to fit and chambered sail panel pod. 

People do it with mids with success so why not with a less important passband.

This one always catches my eye for that type of hacking.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-vifa/peerless-ox20sc00-04-19mm-textile-dome-tweeter/


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've actually used that tweeter before (about 3.5 years ago, or so) as a helper tweeter. It won't fit _this_ particular application with a 5" driver, though. But is a good little tweeter for a smaller midrange.

I do plan to play around with some shaping of the install mount. I'll be at Disney over the next week but when I get back and get caught up on work hours (I hate taking PTO) I'll start back in on the car and post up the install.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

the question to me, is how far back into the corner do you have to go, before the line where you have a tweeter and some reflecting surfaces, gets crossed to having a waveguide that uses the car's natural hardware as part of the structure.

if you can recess the tweeter into a small molded waveguide and it has a reasonably smooth transition to the windshield and dash then the response should clean up, and the treble "disappears" into the forward field, instead of it sounding like a tweeter you slid on the dash.

making that little "bit" of kit, may be most easily developed using computer aided modeling and a 3-D printer, or maybe an acoustic lens would give less notice of it's location?

like the Audi pop-ups? B&O Sausalito, may disappear better than a squished up EOS plate...


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I actually asked Steve Cook and a couple others what they'd recommend for a quick/easy install and they said to use non-hardening modeling clay to mold the shape I want, press the tweeter in, pop the clay out and just cover the pod how I want. Simple and effective. So, I'll give that a go.


Simply brilliant.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



t3sn4f2 said:


> Something interesting to try would be making/molding your own chamber for the tweeter. Something not pricey at first of course. That way you could further bury it into the corner and move the combing frequency even higher up. As well as gaining more waveguide _type_ loading in the lower ones.
> 
> I've often wondered just how crucial chamber geometry is for tweeters and/or mid domes when it comes to car audio apps. Mainly to try and get away with squeezing a high sensitivity dome mid into a molded to fit and chambered sail panel pod.
> 
> People do it with mids with success so why not with a less important passband.
> 
> This one always catches my eye for that type of hacking.
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters-vifa/peerless-ox20sc00-04-19mm-textile-dome-tweeter/


Yeah I've got a set of those. Great little tweet, though I'm told there are better, but very probably not in the same size. I imagine crossover point would require a rather high-reaching small mid as Erin mentioned to mate with. Might be great in a little waveguide.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I actually asked Steve Cook and a couple others what they'd recommend for a quick/easy install and they said to use non-hardening modeling clay to mold the shape I want, press the tweeter in, pop the clay out and just cover the pod how I want. Simple and effective. So, I'll give that a go.


Yeah I wonder if you could get a mold started from that clay shape, glassing a negative mold around the shape, then remove the clay, and glass a positive mold inside the negative mold for the actual pod. Then add tweeter ring and stretched cloth to begin the final pod. Nice part there, all the glassing is outside the car.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Yeah I've got a set of those. Great little tweet, though I'm told there are better, but very probably not in the same size. I imagine crossover point would require a rather high-reaching small mid as Erin mentioned to mate with. Might be great in a little waveguide.


Yeah I was thinking more of an experiment type thing to see how the higher frequencies would be affected by a small tweeter that could be fitted further in than the 1" needed. If it helped flatten things even more you then you could deduce that the 1" would benefit as well from being jammed in as much as possible. For that range. 

You could then move on to trimming away the faceplate of the target tweeter. Or in the case of the Scan 1", removing it all together. Which gives it a seamless mounting diameter, top to bottom. Affixing the chamber to the coil assemble some other way of course. Or even redoing your own chamber like I mentioned earlier.


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on tweeter placement... !

Your Civic dash is nearly identical to my TSX dash... The TSX has OEM tweeter locations very close to where you placed your tweeters....


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Great insight, Erin.. Been thinking about doing Mids or tweeters in the sails even cut one out to see how the tweeters would look. (Like the clay method).. Glad I'm leaving the front stage for last..


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Goes to show, one should experiment with drivers in different feasible points in any vehicle and (keyword) test various potential spots. Ya never know for sure until you get a mic and measuring tool on it. 

Countless threads on the 8th civic site where everyone for years dismissed the stock tweeter locations, but this is the first where the "location" was actually measured, while just applying a different angle than slapping it in and upfiring from under stock grills, that I can recall anyway. As an 8th civic owner I find it kinda revolutionary actually.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Realized I'd never posted up the latest iteration of the install. Excuse the grainy cell pics... I'll try to get some good ones later tonight...

So, to recap, I changed the Kef concentric out for the SB Acoustics 5" Satori MW13P-4 Midrange and the Scan-Speak D3004/6020 tweeter.

The left mid is aimed about 20 degrees off axis, pointed more toward the right ear side. The right mid is aimed close to on-axis. Both tweeters are aimed on-axis, with the left tweeter being practically dead on and the right tweeter being aimed a hair more toward the right ear.


edit: better pictures below.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks nice! Hope to get to listen to it this weekend. Having the tweets pushed to the corners giving you what you want?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yea. It worked out really well.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Yea. It worked out really well.


Yeah, Erin's car sounded awesome last weekend. The depth to the stage is outstanding, largely due to the positioning of the tweeters IMO.
That Civic dash is so deep to begin with, and then the tweeters are pushed so far forward. It really works well.

Of course, everything else sounded great, too. The subs are amazing. I definitely got out of that car with a desire to improve mine.


----------



## fullergoku

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think it sounds even better than it did at finals!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



fullergoku said:


> I think it sounds even better than it did at finals!!!


Thanks, man! I definitely feel the same way.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

some better pictures...

The overall, taken from the back seat:





This is my view from the driver's seat (but a little bit higher than the picture shows). The mids aren't in my way at all and the tweeter is only slightly in my line of sight.





Overall car up front with the JL ZR800's hidden in the floors up front (and protected with some legit steel grilles to keep any feet from damaging the speakers). FWIW, the black carpet on the floor is not OEM. I added that a couple years ago. I think it worked out really well, though, to contrast with the rest of the tan interior.





Left side grille on:




Left side grille off:




Left side tweeter:





Right side


----------



## Bluenote

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I like this layout!


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> The subs are amazing. I definitely got out of that car with a desire to improve mine.


Didn't we all? lol 

Knowing where the subs are in Erin's car, I TRIED to hear where they were. I stuck my head into the back seat and the subs STILL sounded like they were coming from the dash!

And the subs handled "Centipede," pretty well...far better than I expected based on previous experiences with IB subs.

Wish I'd have listened to John's car, I don't get to hear many horn cars.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Yeah, Erin's car sounded awesome last weekend. The depth to the stage is outstanding, largely due to the positioning of the tweeters IMO.
> That Civic dash is so deep to begin with, and then the tweeters are pushed so far forward. It really works well.
> 
> Of course, everything else sounded great, too. The subs are amazing. I definitely got out of that car with a desire to improve mine.





JayinMI said:


> Didn't we all? lol
> 
> Knowing where the subs are in Erin's car, I TRIED to hear where they were. I stuck my head into the back seat and the subs STILL sounded like they were coming from the dash!
> 
> And the subs handled "Centipede," pretty well...far better than I expected based on previous experiences with IB subs.



I didn't get a chance to reply to these earlier and forgot to come back. Just had to dig up a link here and wanted to tell you guys thanks for the compliments. It's nice to hear that kind of feedback on the sub/midbass because that's something that I worked on for a long time to get to the point where I was satisfied with it.

I hope to see you guys at Finals.


----------



## Babs

When and where are finals?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nashville Fairgrounds, October 17th-18th


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ I just saw that. I'm hoping I can make it again this year at least for a day if not the whole weekend. I won't be competing but it still will be a good time.


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.&infin;: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm not worthy to compete by any means but I bet it's a blast to show off the pain and suffering and hours of tuning and the praise of doing a good job. Your car is silly good. One of the top two I've ever sat my butt in. Rivals many home setups I've heard, and I've heard a bunch more of those than SQ cars. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I appreciate the compliments, dude. Truly.


I wouldn't cast doubt on your setup, man. What I heard was good and I know you've been hard at it since Jason's meet.


----------



## HardCoreDore

bigbubba said:


> Nashville Fairgrounds, October 17th-18th


I'll come out. I live in the Ville so it's easy for me. I'm bringing my 8th Gen Si with me too.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm planning to be there again this year too. If you make it out Scott, you'll get to hear the Mazda this time with a full tune


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I wouldn't cast doubt on your setup, man. What I heard was good and I know you've been hard at it since Jason's meet.


Thanks.. Yeah was rockin' until my mic died. I overworked it. LOL!!!


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> I'm planning to be there again this year too. If you make it out Scott, you'll get to hear the Mazda this time with a full tune


Oh dang! Well crap guys.. I guess I need to get it on the calendar and start desensitizing my wife now.


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## HardCoreDore

Those of you that aren't from here should definitely try some Nashville Hot Chicken while you're in town. That is if you're brave enough...


----------



## Blinkybill

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey Erin

Love the work, justice through all40 pages start to finish! 

Was wondering, at any point did you try those JL subs free air as Well?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

alright, I saw this yesterday and thought it was awesome. not so much the song (which is catchy, but others will hate it just because) but because of Tom Hanks. I lol'd a couple times. Thought some of my friends here might get a kick out of it as well...


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## Guest

Yeah, l saw this at Chucky Cheese.... I have 3 year old boys, we go there a lot.... thought it was pretty funny that Tom Hanks would be doing a video...


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That was awesome! lol


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Pretty cool. I was hoping to see the floor piano from Big.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bigbubba said:


> Pretty cool. I was hoping to see the floor piano from Big.


One of my favorite movie scenes of all time...


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> One of my favorite movie scenes of all time...


Classic. Watching that made my Monday seem a little better.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Haha. Glad it helped.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Full circle?...

After Finals in 2013 I talked to a couple friends about being inspired by some of the nicer looking installs there. So many nice, clean trunk installs. But, at that same time, I liked having my amps under the seats. Well, recently I switched over to some new gear, but before I get there, let's do some history first. 

I have been _all_ sorts of places with my installs over the years. Just a quick trip down memory lane here, *dating back to 2007*:




















Around 2008 I went this route:











And in 2009 this...




















And in Fall 2010, this is where my amps went and stayed:









I honestly forgot about some of these iterations! And, yes, the handiwork isn't good but luckily it's gotten (somewhat) better since then, lol. I changed a lot in a short time but in 2010 when the amps went under the seats, they stayed there for nearly 5 years. But that's what's changing now.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So, yea, 5 years of amps under the seats. As nice as it was the 'stealth' aspect of amps under the front seats, servicing them and swapping things around was a pain because I'd have to unbolt the seats to access the amps. And it seems I always had an RCA go bad. Plus, five years of the same install... I really just wanted to do something different. I recently picked up a slew of new amps:











For those curious, the power distribution will be as so:
Each 'side' (left and right) of the front speakers will have an HD600/4 and HD750/1. The HD600/4 will be bridged for the mids and tweeters (300w x 2, unless I stick with rear-fill in which case then it'll be 300x1 and 150x2) and the HD750/1 will be for the midbass (750w x 1). The HD1200/1 will still be on the AE IB15's. Overkill? Possibly... I could argue it either way. But the opportunity was presented to run this setup in place of the dual HD900/5's so I took it. 

Obviously I am not stashing all these JL HD amps under my front seats. So this now this gives me the push needed to do the trunk install I've been thinking about. I've got some ideas kicking around... whenever I get started I'll snap pictures on my phone and post them up as I go. I'm not at all in a hurry to get this done, though, because I've got enough on my plate as it is.

I'll also incorporate my power supply back there so I can just plug in wall power directly to the car and not have to fiddle with a power supply hanging outside of my car. At Jason's meet, this really bothered me because it rained the whole time. That was the tipping point for finally getting the supply put inside the car.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Got all the main hardware on hand and currently doing some test fits and bouncing ideas off friends to see what they think. In the meantime, thought I'd share what I personally think is gonna be something about the install that makes it cool. Let's look back at the stack of amps...



They all look the same, right?

But one is a dummy amp. It will hide the Helix DSP Pro:


----------



## Blu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



So much HD goodness...

I like!


----------



## Guest

Hey now, I like this....


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

that answers why you were considering selling the 900/5s a while back.

No one can argue that you dont have enough headroom. Thats for sure lol. 

I feel a bit better knowing the 1200/1 is powering both subs and the other is a dummy case for the helix. That will definitely clean it up since you may be showing it off


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

another benefit of going with bridged amps...independent Left and right Gains!!!
My 600/4 is bridged to mids. 900/5 bridged to Horns

enjoy the new build.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The way I stagger the amps, the left and right sides have their own amp anyway. Had it set up like this with the 600/4's I had in 2009 and then when I switched to the dual 900/5's. When the amps were under the seats it made the wiring a bit easier for each side to get it's own amp. So I'm just carrying that forward.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

a random, FWIW...

I know these aren't new but I wanted to give a plug for these barrier strips:
Terminal Block


I ordered a couple of these for my trunk wiring so I can connect the speaker wires from the amps to the speaker wires ran in the car, allowing for quick change of components at the amp rack in the trunk and quick removal of the amp rack for "outside of the car" wiring. I've used the blocks like these before, but I much prefer the ones I bought recently because they're more protected against a stray wire short-circuiting.

Here's a picture I took with my phone to give you guys a better idea of what they look like:


----------



## eddieg

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey Erin, 

Another good recommendation would be shielded (cover) terminal block such as this: 

Electronics DIY 8P Terminal Block Connectors (2-Piece Pack) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've become a fan of the screw-down type as well that take ring terminals. While it's a bit of a pain terminating a bunch of wires with ring terminals, they're for sure not going anywhere once they're attached to the block. I like those covered versions. Even better. 

One caveat, I don't use these for speaker wires. While I'm sure there's plenty of data saying it has no sonic affect, I'd just take advantage of the speaker connectors at the amp, as I plan to do on the PDX's, and wire it in such a way everything is labeled and tied together nicely. Totally my own neurosis though. I imagine folks use these terminal blocks all the time. I'm just a straight run guy.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



eddieg said:


> Hey Erin,
> 
> Another good recommendation would be shielded (cover) terminal block such as this:
> 
> Electronics DIY 8P Terminal Block Connectors (2-Piece Pack) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme





ErinH said:


> I've used the blocks like these before, but I much prefer the ones I bought recently because they're more protected against a stray wire short-circuiting.


----------



## eddieg

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

One further tip for terminal blocks - always mind how much voltage they can endure and what you are connecting to them - you don't want melted plastic in your car, even if does not hit up it may release toxins.

Ah - yes, I see now Erin - thanks.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

another good thing about the ones I linked is they can be split up. The particular ones I ordered come in a string of 12. So if I want to use a strip of 3, I can cut 3 off and save the rest for something else later.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

looks like you linked the 10 amp at 40 grams.

I like the 30 amp models at 70 grams, both are 12 spot, not much difference in price?

some of the amplifiers give more than 10 amps of current flow, not that it's going to screw up anything but I'd like to use a slightly heavier duty terminal strip if "motivated" by GIGO and the requisite, bottom line...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

by all means, go with what works for your install better. I was just providing a link to something I think is cool.


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

sure!

the reason for my post was to demonstrate there are different models that vary due to current capacity and I suspect the additional weight would mean slightly bigger everything, should you feel you need the lowered resistance of a larger strip hardware.

great work and glad to see you making your rounds, looking for some explanation as to why you jumped out of Kef's sponsor sweet spot and made your way to a converted dash plate, unless it's just restless, ness...


obviously, if you made explanations somewhere else please disregard the nuisance post but since I don't stalk you, maybe....


----------



## cajunner

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

post 920 seems to be the entry point, is that reasoning all there was to it?

did the Kef lack in some way, or not allow you to finish higher in competition?

is there some potential pitfall to using Kef as you were, that isn't apparent?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

time for an update or two...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Back in July I tested Andy's Audiofrog GB25 2.5" midrange. Test results can be found here:
http://medleysmusings.com/afgb25/

I was really impressed by the results and decided to take it for a test spin in my own car for a while. 


Around this time I was also pretty unhappy with the whole "I can see my speakers" thing. Listening to others' cars, it doesn't bother me so that's not a dig at anyone else with speakers on the dash. But, to me, seeing the speakers just puts me in the state of pre-conceived notions, and I sometimes wonder if others have that, too. Even though my speakers were never really in the line of sight and not a safety hazard, it still bothered me. I considered a lot of different options. Some pretty wild stuff, too. But I don't have a lot of time so I'll skip that and come back to it later. 

Enter the GB25. I was really impressed by the wide bandwidth. The linear excursion supports a relatively low crossover for it's size. It's size means it doesn't beam until pretty high in frequency. And it is pretty linear throughout. I took them for a test drove over the span of a month or so in the pillar area. I beat on them pretty hard with no enclosure and was impressed at how loud they got without distortion. I played around with various aiming as well until I got the soundstage I was looking for. I decided it was going to _stay_. Ultimately I decided on a bandpass of ~320/LR4 to 6.3khz/LR4. I used this cheap little Dayton ND16 tweeter to carry out the high frequencies... and that little sucker is practically mono to about 16khz. 

I pulled the pillars out, wrapped them in black cloth and basically made the pillar a grille in and of itself. I made a little baffle for the GB25 and Dayton tweeter and used a 2" PVC end cap for the mid to seal it up. 


Thanks to the GB25's small size and large performance I was able to from this....











to this....





Look, ma, no more speakers! 
(Worth noting: I do plan to cover the pillars in a tan to match the OEM but the stuff is no longer made so I didn't want to use it until I knew this install was going to stay this way)






I considered _numerous_ options when I decided that having big speakers sitting on the dash was something I could no longer stand to look at. One obvious option was the Aura 2" whisper + tweeter... but the Aura couldn't cross low enough to provide me the flexibility I needed since I needed a midbass-to-midrange crossover in the 300-400hz region, comfortably, with considerable output. Same thing for some of the tymphany/vifa options... faital pro, scan 10f (one of my all time favorites), etc, etc. I wanted a small driver that could do the things I needed it to do because I couldn't stand to look at 5.25" mids and a 1" tweeter anymore. It was just distracting, mentally, to look at. 

Both setups - the previous and the new setup - sound great in their own regard but the latter is much better for numerous reasons. It not only allowed me to get past the issue of seeing the speaker, but it's small size allowed me to get the speaker away from the driver's side window which always caused a stage 'skew' where the left side of the stage depth started closer to me than the right side. When I moved the mid from that area, the stage became much more symmetrical in terms of depth to stage (and thus depth of stage) as well as in terms of width. There is no longer a trapezoidal stage; it's much more symmetrical between the left and right sides. Even before the previous setup, I used to have a concentric and moving the tweeter away from the mid helped get rid of some issues off the nearside window but then I had issues with cohesion that I didn't feel time alignment properly resolved to the magnitude of physically placing the mid/tweeter together. 


Sure, the GB25 costs anywhere from 2-10x as much as other 2-3" mids, but it's small frame size combined with it's relatively high linear excursion, smooth response about an octave above beaming, good polar response (on/off axis response matching), and thermal handling all are reasons why the driver is worth, at least to me, that price differential. Most of the common 2-3" drivers simply cannot be crossed as low as I needed and some have poor off-axis response which is important to me because you still have to mate a tweeter to it. At this point, the GB25 is certainly in my top 3 favorite drivers. To date, there is no other driver with this same footprint that can cover the same bandwidth as effectively. That was worth paying for.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

teaser update...

my AE SBP-12's being built. 






So, here's the plan...
The IB15's are coming out of the trunk to accommodate the new amps going in the trunk. It honest to goodness has nothing to do with "bass up front" goals. My subs behind me blend as good or better than any subwoofer up front I've heard to date (no offense; some sounded great but none have made me say "I've got to move my subs", either). So I'm not moving stuff up front to get better sound. I'm sure it will sound great but that wasn't the motivation. It simplifies my system a bit... 5 amps down to 4. Gets me my fold-down seat again. I just want to do an amp wall and I can't do that with subs in the wall. Plus saving 80# in the trunk will be nice considering all the stuff that's about to go back there. LOL.

The SBP-12's will go up front and cover 20-300/400hz. The AE's play clean up to 500hz which is more than enough for the little froggies, crossed at about 320hz right now. The CTC separation is lower than what the beaming of the 12" is anyway. Higher sensitivity, lower Le, better thermal handling and more xmax than the current 8's. 



So, the _idea _(emphasis on idea because I have no idea if I'll be able to make it work) is to put the 12's up front in the kicks. I've done some testing with the JL 8's that are in the floor... swept the impedance and compared it to free air, then compared it against a model of a ported enclosure with a port diameter of 4" (which is the size of the hole in the kicks) and a diameter of 0.01". The model didn't match what I actually get in the car by any means - acoustically or via the impedance sweep - so I proved that my kicks don't act like a small sealed ported box... however, they do act as a truly infinite volume. That's what I expected. And that's perfect for the JL 8's. 

The problem, though, is what happens when you add a larger driver? Does that 4" hole still provide enough surface area for the driver to see an infinite volume behind it? What happens when you start pumping air? I can't say for sure. But what I'm hoping is the hole is large enough to be considered IB and if that's the case then I'll basically rebuild the kicks for a 12" driver (or 10" if the 12" won't fit). If the 4" hole isn't large enough then I'm left with going sealed or cutting a larger hole. The former would require me to get creative with finding space further up the firewall or in the floor. The latter would require a test box be built to determine how little cutting I can get away with. I am fully aware the IB home guys use a rule of thumb that a manifold area must be 1/2 the Sd of the woofers used but that's not quite the same thing as my kick panel install so I need to test to determine for sure what will work.

I have plans all the way through. I just have to buckle down and gut my current kicks and build new ones so I can see what actually does happen. From there it's just a matter of the result and how I need to tweak it. Hopefully it's pretty straightforward. Hopefully that little 4" hole works well. *crosses fingers*
My only concern really is just physically making them fit and with the right size enclosure, whatever that may be. If this doesn't work, then I know 10's will fit. So I'll just step down to 10's up front and call it a day. 


Hopefully I can manage to get this all done in time for the NC meet.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Amp wise, I posted back in the summer that I was changing things up. I'll be going with an HD750/1 to each woofer and an HD600/4 bridged for each side: midrange and tweeter.

A couple years ago I ordered a lot of black vinyl because I had planned to wrap my car hood in it (cheaper than repainting it). I never did, though. 

Fast forward to the other day when I finally put that stuff to use on my JL HD amps. 

I haven't had time to wrap them all yet but to give you an idea, here's some before and after:










I definitely like the black more especially for my goal. I'd seen carbon fiber before on the HD's and it looked cool, but that look isn't right for my install goals. I'm going for a very minimally-flashy install so the flat black seems like it's a good fit. Also, the black is like a throwback to the black JL slash amps which I always thought looked so cool! 

You'll notice there are 6 amps in the first pic. I only plan on using the stack of 4 shown in the last two pictures. The first picture has my two 1200/1 "dummy" amps that I'm keeping around for hiding the DSP in of one and the other will be a place holder for potential rear fill amp (if I even bother using it).


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Back in July I tested Andy's Audiofrog GB25 2.5" midrange. Test results can be found here:
> http://medleysmusings.com/afgb25/
> 
> I was really impressed by the results and decided to take it for a test spin in my own car for a while.
> 
> 
> Around this time I was also pretty unhappy with the whole "I can see my speakers" thing. Listening to others' cars, it doesn't bother me so that's not a dig at anyone else with speakers on the dash. But, to me, seeing the speakers just puts me in the state of pre-conceived notions, and I sometimes wonder if others have that, too. Even though my speakers were never really in the line of sight and not a safety hazard, it still bothered me. I considered a lot of different options. Some pretty wild stuff, too. But I don't have a lot of time so I'll skip that and come back to it later.



THAT LOOK SO MUCH BETTER!!!

You know how I feel about speakers being visible

Also, Id keep the black..at least from the pics it helps the physical boundaries disappear.


and yes a 4" hole should be enough for the 12s in kicks as long as there is a direct path to the exit. 10 in my 1st BMW vented through a 3" hole in the front fender well. 4 12s in my Eclipse vented through a 6" home Depot drain grate in tire well. so long as you stick to 1/3 of the diameter of the driver and the exit path being pretty straight forward it can work really well


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Some interesting changes Erin. So does that mean that if all goes well with the 12s (or 10s) in the kicks, you will be ditching the ZR800s all together? The 12s would perform the duties of both subwoofers and midbasses and play to meet up with the GB25s?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> Some interesting changes Erin. So does that mean that if all goes well with the 12s (or 10s) in the kicks, you will be ditching the ZR800s all together? The 12s would perform the duties of both subwoofers and midbasses and play to meet up with the GB25s?


yep. mentioned a bit about that above.



ErinH said:


> The SBP-12's will go up front and cover 20-300/400hz. The AE's play clean up to 500hz which is more than enough for the little froggies, crossed at about 320hz right now. The CTC separation is lower than what the beaming of the 12" is anyway. Higher sensitivity, lower Le, better thermal handling and more xmax than the current 8's.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> yep. mentioned a bit about that above.


Sorry. Not sure how I missed that. I look forward to seeing your progress on the implementation of the 12s in the kicks. 

I'm still curious how the Illusion C3 would stack up both objectively and subjectively to the GB25. I haven't seen anyone with anything negative to say about the GB25s and my experience with the C3 has been very positive.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The c3 or c3cx would both be too large to fit in my pillars in any way that would completely keep the speaker hidden.
The gb25 and baffle just barely fit the pillar line as it is. I'm talking millimeter's making the difference here between being within the apillar line vs being outside of it. The c3 (or any 3" driver) also would begin losing it's polar pattern earlier than the gb25 which is another important factor to me in this install. 

I'm sure it's a great driver... just not right for this install.


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Strapping in for this over haul!


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Speaks volumes (no pun intended) in driver selection, to be able to match up a 2.5" with a 12" driver. Six channel system.. Wow! Been a while for you I'd say huh.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> The c3 or c3cx would both be too large to fit in my pillars in any way that would completely keep the speaker hidden.
> The gb25 and baffle just barely fit the pillar line as it is. I'm talking millimeter's making the difference here between being within the apillar line vs being outside of it. The c3 (or any 3" driver) also would begin losing it's polar pattern earlier than the gb25 which is another important factor to me in this install.
> 
> I'm sure it's a great driver... just not right for this install.


I completely understand having to choose the right driver for your application. 1mm to large is 1mm too large. It does seem that Andy has a great little driver on his hands that could open up some unique possibilities for a lot of installs.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Finished up the amp wraps.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice! Looks way better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I like sir, I like !


----------



## danno14

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'll just step down to 10's up front and call it a day.


Quotable! 





And the amps look sharp, in a classy, subtle sort of way. Well done


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In for this. Been toying with this idea quite a bit lately. Even have a spare parts vehicle I don't mind performing exploratory surgery on for this.


----------



## req

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

noice!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Nice! Looks way better.





SQ_TSX said:


> I like sir, I like !





danno said:


> And the amps look sharp, in a classy, subtle sort of way. Well done


thanks, guys! I definitely think they look better, at least for my install. I'm thinking of putting them on a white wall and going for a Storm Trooper look. 






danno14 said:


> Quotable!


haha. yea...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> teaser update...
> 
> my AE SBP-12's being built.
> 
> [snip]


I got shipment notification for the SBP-12's yesterday. Hopefully I will have them in by this weekend so I can set them on a shelf and stare at them until I finally get some time to do this install. 


I also have a pair of AE IB12AU's to try out. Both the SBP/IB-AU drivers have their strong suites so I'll have to do some testing to see what works better for this particular configuration. John thinks the SBP is the better for this application since I'll need them to carry in to the lower midrange as well due to it's stronger motor. Also, the IB12AU's are 8 ohm so I'm not sure I'll use them, in which case they'll be put up for sale. So if anyone is interested in a set of IB12AU's, feel free to PM me just in case.


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> thanks, guys! I definitely think they look better, at least for my install. I'm thinking of putting them on a white wall and going for a Storm Trooper look.


*claydo cues up the imperial march*


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



claydo said:


> *claydo cues up the imperial march*


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

IB wall is now gone. 








that mini-sledge was needed for sure!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Moving on the kicks...
The passenger side kick area is going to be the toughest to fit a 12" driver due to the HVAC motor being in the way. So the next task was to remove the passenger side kick. It took me nearly two hours from start to finish. After all was said and done, I feel a bit better now about being able to fit a 12" in the kicks but I'm still not 100%. Just going to have to wait and see with the real deal.



This is what I started with.





and this is what is left. obviously I need to vacuum but I was too tired for that. if you're curious, no that's not rust on the CLD. it's red spray glue for the MLV. The black hole at the firewall... that's the 4" hole that goes directly to the outside world.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No turning back now.


----------



## Aldaa

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This is going to be awesome! I hope I get to hear your car some day. :devil:


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This **** is getting serious!


----------



## Martin1430

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Subbed


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Holy squirrel balls!


----------



## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> THAT LOOK SO MUCH BETTER!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Id keep the black..at least from the pics it helps the physical boundaries disappear.


I agree, it looks pretty slick.

I also second keeping the black. I changed my pillar trim color from light gray to black. I did this because black is easy to color match, I can use black grill cloth, and as you noticed, it helps everything blend.

On a side note, you never, ever see black pillar trim in any car. I am not entirely sure why that is the case. At first I thought that the black trim in contrast the outside environment would be distracting somehow. But, I haven't found this to be the case. I think it is done to give the perception of more interior space.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Black trim on the pillars and roof makes the interior of the car seem smaller.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Black trim on the pillars and roof makes the interior of the car seem smaller.


I agree. The black pillar to me makes the car seem smaller. Which is why I will re-wrap them in tan at some point in the future. It's not a priority, though.

The floor carpet is originally tan so the black is what I did on my own. 
Black carpet with the tan up top actually made the car seem more spacious.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Black trim on the pillars and roof makes the interior of the car seem smaller.


Not smaller...more intimate


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think this convo just goes to show you the psychoacoustic effect and how it varies from person to person.


----------



## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I think this convo just goes to show you the psychoacoustic effect and how it varies from person to person.


True, and since you found the previous pods intrusive from a psychoacoustic perspective, it makes me wonder if/how perception of interior space factors into the equation .

Can the visual perception of a smaller space make the stage wider or outside the boundaries of the car?


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It's usually the other way around...the larger space makes the stage space seem larger- anyone who has heard Gary Bigg's Regal would probably tell you the same thing.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Orion525iT said:


> True, and since you found the previous pods intrusive from a psychoacoustic perspective, it makes me wonder if/how perception of interior space factors into the equation .
> 
> Can the visual perception of a smaller space make the stage wider or outside the boundaries of the car?


Yes!!


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> It's usually the other way around...the larger space makes the stage space seem larger- anyone who has heard Gary Bigg's Regal would probably tell you the same thing.


I think there is typically an inverse relationship. I cant remember if it was Eric or Matt or someone else telling me this years ago. Larger vehicles have a tendency to sound smaller or at least more confined bc the space seems so large can be difficult to fill.

Gary and guys like Steve Cornell had the speaker mounted so far buried in the kick panel that they were physically outside the interior boundaries of the vehicle. I also know that quite a few guys who made their apillars larger to reduce the physical boundaries and increase the perception that the soundstage was wider than the interior


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Orion525iT said:


> True, and since you found the previous pods intrusive from a psychoacoustic perspective, it makes me wonder if/how perception of interior space factors into the equation .
> 
> Can the visual perception of a smaller space make the stage wider or outside the boundaries of the car?





Mic10is said:


> Yes!!


so how do judges at events take this all into account?


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Listening to SubterFuse's Audi, he had the windshield covered. Pitch dark demo. It took my eyes completely out of the equation. Just ears. 

Having no idea of the build with no roaming eyes looking for speaker locations makes a huge difference I think. Best way for psychologically taking the speakers out of the equation as sound source points in your mind is to make them unseen. 

I'm having the same dilemma now for my pillars as matter of fact. Trying to think a design that's as inconspicuous as possible is going to be a challenge. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mic10is

A good judge judges based on the guidelines set forth by the
Organization's rulebook. Iasca has stage maps and diagrams that illustrate what a vehicle should score based on what the judge is hearing. To an experienced judge it's pretty straightforward.


----------



## ndm

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Orion525iT said:


> I agree, it looks pretty slick.
> 
> I also second keeping the black. I changed my pillar trim color from light gray to black. I did this because black is easy to color match, I can use black grill cloth, and as you noticed, it helps everything blend.
> 
> On a side note, you never, ever see black pillar trim in any car. I am not entirely sure why that is the case. At first I thought that the black trim in contrast the outside environment would be distracting somehow. But, I haven't found this to be the case. I think it is done to give the perception of more interior space.


My 08 G8gt had black pillers and headliner. I loved it


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Orion525iT said:


> I agree, it looks pretty slick.
> 
> 
> 
> I also second keeping the black. I changed my pillar trim color from light gray to black. I did this because black is easy to color match, I can use black grill cloth, and as you noticed, it helps everything blend.
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note, you never, ever see black pillar trim in any car. I am not entirely sure why that is the case. At first I thought that the black trim in contrast the outside environment would be distracting somehow. But, I haven't found this to be the case. I think it is done to give the perception of more interior space.



Almost every VW and Mini I've owned has had black trim. Headliners, pillars, everything. 


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----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Almost every VW and Mini I've owned has had black trim. Headliners, pillars, everything.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yup. Black headliners are available on BMW and Audi, too. In Alcantara sometimes.

Got the black liner on my parents' A8 and my wife's SQ5.


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----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I couldn't remember if my M3 had black (I think it did) and I forgot about my A4 Avant but that had black as well. 


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----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Germans are the only cars with any sense of style. That's why almost every other car company copies German designs. 


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## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Listening to SubterFuse's Audi, he had the windshield covered. Pitch dark demo. It took my eyes completely out of the equation. Just ears.
> 
> Having no idea of the build with no roaming eyes looking for speaker locations makes a huge difference I think. Best way for psychologically taking the speakers out of the equation as sound source points in your mind is to make them unseen.
> 
> I'm having the same dilemma now for my pillars as matter of fact. Trying to think a design that's as inconspicuous as possible is going to be a challenge.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk



On the flip side of things, covering the windshield also removes your sense of depth and space. from a competition stand point, covering the windshield removes the visual cues and sight lines for judging such as depth, soundstage relative to listening position, and can make the vehicle feel more closed off. 
Those that have competed over the past 5 years or so, may have noticed a trend toward covering the windshield with opaque material like carpet or other type fabrics, to covering windshields with really dark removable static tint.
I'm not going to say I pioneered the idea, there were many guys who had dark tinted windshields, but they were regular tint. But I know I gave the idea to a lot of people and then others found better solutions, like home rolls of tint instead of car which are wider and longer--this option allows the tint to be removed after the show.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Home rolls of tint?


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Home rolls of tint?


Gila 3 ft. x 6.5 ft. Black Privacy Window Film-PB78 - The Home Depot


----------



## edouble101

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I wonder if the sub bass will suffer losing cabin gain from the trunk. I also wonder if the bass will sound like it is coming from behind you due to wavelengths at those frequencies. 

No matter what it should look awesome having 12" subs in the kicks!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Home rolls of tint?





Mic10is said:


> Gila 3 ft. x 6.5 ft. Black Privacy Window Film-PB78 - The Home Depot


That's what I use. It was suggested to me by Mike Stills and I thought it was a great idea. It darkens up the view enough to keep distraction down but allows you to see out and also cuts down on heat. I've since brought up this same topic of blacking out the windshield and suggested the tint idea to numerous people... got some silliness/drama for it in another thread from someone and then they turned around and did the same thing. 

I think the whole thing falls on the listener preference, though. I do these things based on my own preferences. But what I prefer may not work psychoacoustically for someone else. So it's different strokes for different folks. If you're approaching it from a competitive standpoint, I don't think it's enough to stress over. People get 1st place at shows with nothing on their windshield. So I'd do what you feel works best for you... and if you're competitive and feel there's an edge to be had then that's fine, too.



edouble101 said:


> I wonder if the sub bass will suffer losing cabin gain from the trunk. I also wonder if the bass will sound like it is coming from behind you due to wavelengths at those frequencies.
> 
> No matter what it should look awesome having 12" subs in the kicks!


Think of exactly what cabin gain is caused by, though. From that you'll know the location of the woofer doesn't matter in regards to cabin gain. Of course, if I weren't putting the wall back up for the amps then the longest dimension of the car would increase by about 3 feet since the trunk would no longer be walled off, which would lower the cabin gain transition frequency. However, the wall will still be there so the transition frequency will not change. 

Modal issues will be shifted around, but the car's dimensions are what determines when the environment is purely pressure. The sensation of behind you has been an issue with up front subs as well as subs behind you... the tune can be the culprit but so can mechanical issues. I'm not worried about the tune, which leaves mechanical issues. I've got ideas to resolve that.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

One thing that might mostly be anecdotal but interesting nonetheless...


I was driving last week and thought to myself the soundstage seemed deeper. I figure... heck, it's probably just me since I hadn't driven my car in a few days (had been driving my wife's). The next day I drove my car to/from work again and thought the same thing... the stage seemed deeper and it seemed like it started deeper to (so depth _to_ and _of_ stage improved). Okay.... *shrugs*.
Then I got to thinking about it... I had disabled my subs a few days before when I pulled the HD1200/1 to send to a friend in a trade. Was it possible the subs not being active were helping the stage seem deeper? Certainly plausible when you consider the following:
a) the AE subs have a great ability to play cleanly in to the lower midrange; I'd played the system with the midbasses off when tuning in the past and you could hear lower vocals coming from the rear. When the midbasses were enabled the precedence effect took over and didn't cause your attention to be pulled rearward so it wasn't something I gave much thought to.
b) my low pass filter on the subs was about 80hz/12dB which allowed more to come from them than a sub that's low passed at 40hz/24dB (but the former made it MUCH easier to integrate the sub 'up front')

This wasn't a night and day difference but I will say that I don't believe it was only psychoacoustic. I wouldn't say "don't run your sub up high" because given the small difference in stage depth change but notable dynamic ability and with proper tuning the impact still remaining up front, there's no reasonable 'trade off' in this regard. If I couldn't fit larger drivers up front there's no way I'd ever take the extra stage depth in lieu of reduced output. But that's me. May not be everybody. Just saying to take my observations with a dose of personal goals in your car.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> One thing that might mostly be anecdotal but interesting nonetheless...
> 
> 
> I was driving last week and thought to myself the soundstage seemed deeper. I figure... heck, it's probably just me since I hadn't driven my car in a few days (had been driving my wife's). The next day I drove my car to/from work again and thought the same thing... the stage seemed deeper and it seemed like it started deeper to (so depth _to_ and _of_ stage improved). Okay.... *shrugs*.
> Then I got to thinking about it... I had disabled my subs a few days before when I pulled the HD1200/1 to send to a friend in a trade. Was it possible the subs not being active were helping the stage seem deeper? Certainly plausible when you consider the following:
> a) the AE subs have a great ability to play cleanly in to the lower midrange; I'd played the system with the midbasses off when tuning in the past and you could hear lower vocals coming from the rear. When the midbasses were enabled the precedence effect took over and didn't cause your attention to be pulled rearward so it wasn't something I gave much thought to.
> b) my low pass filter on the subs was about 80hz/12dB which allowed more to come from them than a sub that's low passed at 40hz/24dB (but the former made it MUCH easier to integrate the sub 'up front')
> 
> This wasn't a night and day difference but I will say that I don't believe it was only psychoacoustic. I wouldn't say "don't run your sub up high" because given the small difference in stage depth change but notable dynamic ability and with proper tuning the impact still remaining up front, there's no reasonable 'trade off' in this regard. If I couldn't fit larger drivers up front there's no way I'd ever take the extra stage depth in lieu of reduced output. But that's me. May not be everybody. Just saying to take my observations with a dose of personal goals in your car.


Could the perceived increase in depth actually be an increase in soundstage relative to listening position? With the speaker no longer directly on axis, as they were before, the perceived stage could be starting out farther away now.
That's one of the key things I have noticed over the years when playing with speaker angles. the more on axis the speakers are, the more it seems to move the front of the stage closer to the listener. the more off axis you turn them it moves it farther away but perceived depth (distance from front to rear) decreases.

But Yeh, with subs in back, I have definitely noticed a sense of stage being closer or in a sense, a more enveloping listening experience.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> Could the perceived increase in depth actually be an increase in soundstage relative to listening position? With the speaker no longer directly on axis, as they were before, the perceived stage could be starting out farther away now.
> That's one of the key things I have noticed over the years when playing with speaker angles. the more on axis the speakers are, the more it seems to move the front of the stage closer to the listener. the more off axis you turn them it moves it farther away but perceived depth (distance from front to rear) decreases.
> 
> But Yeh, with subs in back, I have definitely noticed a sense of stage being closer or in a sense, a more enveloping listening experience.


you talking about the front speakers? if so, the difference didn't change because of that because they've been that way since August. I just didn't post about it until recently. 
I went to AL state finals with an incomplete tune to get some feedback from the judges and did really well so that helped me feel confident I made the right decision. Heck, I competed with the same tune at the IASCA 3x at finals and still managed to get 4th. All in all, I can safely say at worst, I broke even and I still haven't really optimized the tune on this yet because I knew I'd be changing stuff again. (really hope that last bit doesn't come off as bragging, I've tried to reword it like 5 times already)

The difference I'm hearing and talking about in the last post is only since I disabled the subs. 



But, yea, when I changed to the frogs back in late Summer, oh yea, the stage improved *IMMENSELY*. I think I covered it earlier... but if not, let me say that this car sounds MUCH better in regards to staging than it ever has. Tonally to me it has always sound good/ok/whatever but the staging has always been my biggest battle. To get a stage that is symmetrical in width and depth has been something I've had headaches over and is my biggest problem with most cars I demo (everyone seems to have great tonality but staging/imaging is a problem area). Moving the mid/tweeter is probably one of the best decisions I made in that regard. That's why I wrote my love for the GB25 because it allowed me to get the bandwidth/output I needed in a small form factor that I could put in the right location to get the stage to do what I wanted it to do.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

And seeing how those drivers are simply recessed in the window pocket amazes me that you're finding such results. 


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----------



## Kazuhiro

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Got any pics of the midrange and tweet housing construction?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I don't have any "final" ones. I've got some crappy ones I took with my cell phone to share with some friends when I was still in the test phase, but it's pretty much the same as what's in there now except I used better wood and chamfered the rear of the gb25 mounting hole. 

I'll take some better pictures when I re-wrap the pillars but for now, here are the ones from when I was testing the location out...


----------



## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> One thing that might mostly be anecdotal but interesting nonetheless...
> 
> 
> I was driving last week and thought to myself the soundstage seemed deeper. I figure...
> 
> This wasn't a night and day difference but I will say that I don't believe it was only psychoacoustic.


It could be harmonics in the sub. But it also might be from the subs lighting up the car. I don't care what you do for treatment, panels will vibrate; plastic, metal, foam, ect it doesn't matter. Even the best basket designs will have inherent resonances that can transfer energy to the vehicle. 

We know this stuff. But I guess my point is that the subs could elicit higher frequency cues that might pull the stage back without impacting width in a similar fashion, and without causing other noticeable deviations.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I was thinking the harmonics as well. Vibrations, not so much. Even with only my subs playing, unless it was at full tilt playing ridiculous bass, the car wouldn't rattle.


----------



## Corradokid666

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

ErinH are you using the audiofrog tweeters also and if so which one? How would you describe the sound characteristics? They look like they could be a good product for a discreet a pillar build for me but it doesn't appear they are available in the uk yet. The vehicle is a e92 bmw with underseat subs which I've been told have a natural 200hz ish roll off due to location. In your opinion will the mid play down to that with authority? The other option I've been considering is the hat l3se/l1 pro r2 combo. Many thanks


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

He's using an uber expensive Dayton ND16 tweeter. 

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-nd16fa-6-5-8-neodymium-dome-tweeter--275-025


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----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow, very exciting changes in the works Erin! Interested to see if you'll be able to fit the 12s. Should make for some insane impact all up front.

Are those sealed PVC end caps the mids are mounted in? Or are they open on the back?

Your praise of the GB25 and its small size might make it be worth revisiting the 'mids hidden behind the pillars' install in my car. I know you said elsewhere you didn't think you gave up anything in dynamics, realism, or midrange presence switching from the much larger Kef. Do you still feel that way? What's your crossover between the GB25 and ND16?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey dude! Yea I still feel the same way ... I have zero regrets about ditching the kef and subsequent satori/scan setup for this new one. The stage is just much better and I feel I've not given anything up. 

Crossover between the mid/tweet is right around 6khz. Give or take a few hundred. My memory is a bit fuzzy.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very cool. Those things must really rock. Think I might have to make some mock-ups...

I'm assuming the dimensions posted on the AF site are correct, but can you confirm? They just look deeper than the specs suggest. In most pics they look almost as deep as the flange diameter, but are listed at like half that.

And are you running them sealed or IB?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'd have to take them back out to verify spec but I can at least verify the flange diameter posted is correct.

They are sealed in the cup.


----------



## sqnut

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Your mid and tweet are in the typical snowman mount and my question is, did you experiment with a horizontal placement as well? If so, what were the differences. My hypothesis is that with a snowman mount you're going to have a more uniform horizontal dispersion and every time you get into the car the position of your ears will vary slightly on the x axis, not so much on the y axis...When mounted horizontally does the stage width reduce a bit? Last question, did you consider cutting the dash corners to mount the mid and tweet there and fire them up at the windshield?


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Definitely curious about tweeter placements, as I might try some out at some point.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

back in 2010 just before Finals I did a complete rebuild of my pillars. at that time, I used a Scanspeak 12m with the alpine variant of the Scan d2904 tweeter. They were aligned with the tweeter slightly off-set vertically so I can fit them in the pillar. they stuck out, but not a lot. 

that was the basis for all my future installs. in many ways, I felt that was one of the best setups I ever had. I even considered going back to that at one point but with the goal being complete stealth, it wasn't feasible. the concentric was an effort to get back to that same cohesive soundstage the MT (mid-tweeter) design gave me but the problems I had with that are well documented in this same thread... which then led to me documenting the next iteration using the Scan d3004 tweeter mounted near the windshield and the 5.25" satori mid at the pillar. but I still had visible speakers. thus, this newest iteration, thanks to the gb25's performance/size ratio. 

I chose to stack the tweeter vertically because it provides a better horizontal spread and a (slightly) lessened vertical spread (not nearly as severe - which is still used lightly - as an mtm design). this setup in and of itself is MUCH less picky with where the listener's head is than some of the other installs I've had. a good MT design just plain works. 

Of course, the other reason the tweeter isn't off to the side of the mid in the pillar is pretty obvious if you've been keeping up with why I went to the new install: it would be visible. There's no way that I would have been able to stay within the boundary of the pillar. if I was going to see a speaker, there was no reason for a new install anyway. 

That's the same reason I didn't go with the speakers in the dash corners. I don't have good experience up-firing tweeters; so I would have had to put the tweeters facing me. I could have gotten away with it by putting the tweeter behind the pillar but after playing with the GB25 up-firing and the nd16 firing from the very far corner, I decided I didn't care for that. The width was limited - definitely not as wide as what it is now. additionally, I didn't feel the depth was as good and the instrument cluster makes for the two sides (left and right) not being the same. I've learned over the years that a symmetric install is much easier to tune between left and right and that they share the same polar pattern isn't of negligible benefit. 


obviously not everyone is able to mimic the same install because goals and install locations are different. but that's my rationale for how I did this iteration. hope that helps!


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

All that effort just to keep things invisible. There's got to be something to that psychoacoustics thing after all, eh?


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, 
All the talk of stealthiness be damned, what problems did you face sonically when the scans were in the windshield corners? 

Reason I ask is I think I could make em look good there rather inconspicuous as possible and it'd allow the 10F's to still be stealthy behind the plane of the pillars very easily. 

Both tweeter and mid are kinda problematic for fitting both in the window but just the mid would be a breeze if a tasteful tweet pod could be done upfront. 

Can't wait to hear this setup!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



benny z said:


> All that effort just to keep things invisible. There's got to be something to that psychoacoustics thing after all, eh?


shoot, man. I've been saying that for _years_. from speaker location to comfort in the seating position. I would have done this install years earlier but the gb25 just came to market this year. 




Babs said:


> Erin,
> All the talk of stealthiness be damned, what problems did you face sonically when the scans were in the windshield corners?
> 
> Reason I ask is I think I could make em look good there rather inconspicuous as possible and it'd allow the 10F's to still be stealthy behind the plane of the pillars very easily.
> 
> Both tweeter and mid are kinda problematic for fitting both in the window but just the mid would be a breeze if a tasteful tweet pod could be done upfront.
> 
> Can't wait to hear this setup!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


no real issues other than seeing them. I did seem to have a harder time getting the stage to be cohesive as it was with the concentric and as it is now. It never sounded the way I wanted it, though it did remedy other issues the kef install gave me. the stage was harder to focus up as well. with this setup it tightens right up more easily with much less differential EQ.

I can say that, personally, I'd exhaust my options for mounting the mid close to the tweeter before going with a design that puts them very far apart. you may not notice it tonally, but in terms of soundstage there's a _significant_ difference.


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hmm. Damn. So much for that idea. I was afraid of that. Here's the concentric route. 10F's and D3004's won't hide like the GB25's and Dayton for sure. I was kinda surprised.. Thought they'd go in easier but that window pocket is deceivingly small. 











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----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Got the SBP-12's in last night and did some test fitting. The flange diameter isn't so much the problem as it is the diameter of the motor. Whew, those puppies are big! 

Though, I may still be able to make this work. There will be some loss in leg room for the passenger but a) no one ever rides shotgun with me and b) it won't be anymore obtrusive than some of the passenger-footwell subwoofers I've seen. So it won't be terrible. The problem now will be the driver's side... will there be enough room there. I did a test fit last night by putting the driver face down on the existing baffle on the driver's side and the brake pedal still clears. 

Worth noting is that I can get away with reverse mounting them pretty conveniently. I could do that, build a shroud of metal-grille around them just to keep stuff from getting in to the VC and be OK. And since the soundwave is formed at the cone, that technically would be deeper/wider than the 8's were. 

I'm looking at other options in the meantime just in case this doesn't pan out. Most likely I'd have to go to 10's if these 12's won't fit in a way I like. 


Time will tell. In the meantime, here's some test-fit pictures...


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Don't the 10s have the same size motor? If motor diameter is the limiting factor, using a smaller cone might not do much for you..


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Right. I wasn't saying the same driver in a 10". I meant a 10" in general. Though the IB series does have a slightly smaller motor and the depth of the 10" is a bit less, making the foot space a bit more open.

I'm going to have to gut the driver side kick and see what I can do there. I'm going to try to make these work, though, before throwing in the towel.

TBH, I wasn't going to share an update until I made a decision on what to do but thought some might like to see the effort put in.


----------



## strakele

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Gotcha. And yeah, I wasn't thinking you were giving up that easily.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

you just finished removing a major obstruction on top, now adding it on the bottom...
I think 10s would be fine. 

Wonder if you could do a 12 in the front portion of the passenger side, near the firewall....then do an 8 on the driver side to maintain some more comfortable foot room.


----------



## robolop

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Got the SBP-12's in last night and did some test fitting. The flange diameter isn't so much the problem as it is the diameter of the motor. Whew, those puppies are big!
> 
> Though, I may still be able to make this work. There will be some loss in leg room for the passenger but a) no one ever rides shotgun with me and b) it won't be anymore obtrusive than some of the passenger-footwell subwoofers I've seen. So it won't be terrible. The problem now will be the driver's side... will there be enough room there. I did a test fit last night by putting the driver face down on the existing baffle on the driver's side and the brake pedal still clears.
> 
> Worth noting is that I can get away with reverse mounting them pretty conveniently. I could do that, build a shroud of metal-grille around them just to keep stuff from getting in to the VC and be OK. And since the soundwave is formed at the cone, that technically would be deeper/wider than the 8's were.
> 
> I'm looking at other options in the meantime just in case this doesn't pan out. Most likely I'd have to go to 10's if these 12's won't fit in a way I like.
> 
> 
> Time will tell. In the meantime, here's some test-fit pictures...


Fit perfectly, you can make that

GO 4 IT.


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Zaw all and your ready to start with super fun stuff!!


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



optimaprime said:


> Zaw all and your ready to start with super fun stuff!!


Sawzall? 

Nah, this is better...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I gutted the driver's side kick and did some test fitting. The 12" won't fit without compromising the brake pedal function (something I need ). Even if I could somehow cram them in there tighter I'll need a baffle and grille. In short, 12's are a no go. Officially throwing in the towel here. Here's some pictures of the test fit...











Now, I do have a set of 10" woofers on hand... from a friend who I was supposed to ship these back to a long time ago and remembered I had at the waking hour. That's beside the point. In size, they're pretty close to a 10" AE SBP/IB woofer so I gave it a test fit. It turns out, it'll work. And works well. Against the wall, it actually takes up no more room than the JL 8's did (once you factor in the baffle/grille). Additionally, there's less concern about the 4" hole being enough for them to truly be IB. So, the 10" will be a go. I just have to sell the SBP-12's now so I can fund 10's. If anyone is interested in a set of AE SBP-12 (4 ohm), message me. Yea, it would be awesome having 12's up front. But having 10's up front will be fine. 
Pictures of the 10's....


----------



## Beckerson1

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You got some room. Move that pedal. Show the car who's boss.


Could have my car and absolutely nothing in that location would fit due to the third pedal.


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think mic did some voodoo on his pedals in one of his old comp cars.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Beckerson1 said:


> You got some room. Move that pedal. Show the car who's boss.
> 
> 
> Could have my car and absolutely nothing in that location would fit due to the third pedal.



Tell me about it. That clutch pedal and my 11-1/2's make kicks a non-option sadly. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Beckerson1 said:


> You got some room. Move that pedal. Show the car who's boss.
> 
> 
> Could have my car and absolutely nothing in that location would fit due to the third pedal.


my thoughts. it seems like the width of the brake pedal is the problem? maybe get an aftermarket pedal set that has a thinner pedal, or mod yours. or just ditch the brakes bcuz yolo


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SkizeR said:


> or just ditch the brakes *bcuz yolo*


well, implementing your suggestions, that certainly would be the case. :laugh:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

it's not just that the 12" would interfere with the brake pedal. the fact is that it's pretty obtrusive. I wanted it to work just 'because' but I'm fine with being realistic as well.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Beckerson1 said:


> You got some room. Move that pedal. Show the car who's boss.



"Who does pedal 2 work for?" 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> "Who does pedal 2 work for?"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Master Blaster!











Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ think he was talking about Austin Powers...


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> ^ think he was talking about Austin Powers...












Hmmmmm. Maybe..... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

we quote that at work now and again.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This diapers makin me legs rub togetha. It's gonna starrrt a firrrrre!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Oh forgot that scene. Derp!











Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*











Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I got a crap on deck that could choke a donkeh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Beckerson1

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SkizeR said:


> my thoughts. it seems like the width of the brake pedal is the problem? maybe get an aftermarket pedal set that has a thinner pedal, or mod yours. or just ditch the brakes bcuz yolo


 probably could modify the pedal to fit the small pad that the Si/manual trans use. 

Gain a couple inches at least


----------



## Beckerson1

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> well, implementing your suggestions, that certainly would be the case.


No... That's why you have the hand brake


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Beckerson1 said:


> No... That's why you have the hand brake


erin clearly doesnt yolo hard enough


----------



## Beckerson1

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SkizeR said:


> erin clearly doesnt yolo hard enough


Agreed. He needs some more of those FWD drifts in his life


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Beckerson1 said:


> Agreed. He needs some more of those FWD drifts in his life


this makes me miss my old beater car


----------



## hatemi

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Was the situation as bad if you mounted them with the motor on the cabin side?

You could get a pedal box and extend the steering colum as well to get more room in there. And that would improve PLD as well ;-)


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Brian_smith06 said:


> I think mic did some voodoo on his pedals in one of his old comp cars.


Yeh I moved the clutch 1st in my Integra to fit IDQ8s and then in my Eclipse to a pod the size of an 8 but really housed a Brax Graphic 6.5.
In the Eclipse it also have me some additional room to push the horns slightly farther back...

I cant say Id ever do that with a brake pedal in a daily driver tho. I've matured enough that now I care about full functionality of the vehicle, so I am much less likely to cut up a car, at least as quickly as I did when I was younger.

my 3 main comp cars, Integra, Eclipse, 1st BMW were chopped up pretty badly with the BMW being the worse bc I cut up the cowel area too for a dash rebuild that was never fully completed---I really dont think Id ever do that again, unless I had money, time and space to store a full fledged competition vehicle


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I agree with you, Mic. I'm not cutting anymore metal... lots of people talk big... not many already have 4" holes cut in their firewalls.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> This diapers makin me legs rub togetha. It's gonna starrrt a firrrrre!


that character always makes me think of Gabriel Iglesias' bit when he's talking about being thrown out of an Irish bar. 'donkey!'


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I agree with you, Mic. I'm not cutting anymore metal... lots of people talk big... not many already have 4" holes cut in their firewalls.



Speak for yourself.... 


No fear.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> that character always makes me think of Gabriel Iglesias' bit when he's talking about being thrown out of an Irish bar. 'donkey!'




Hehehe.... cause yer mexican!


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Speak for yourself....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No fear.



Just doing world class audio as non-invasive as possible in an S6 is pretty dang ballsy in my book, much less breaking out the air saw. 

I especially like that precision sharpee marking there. LOL


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Cut mine, too.










Been this way for at least 5 years.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just to be clear... I said firewall. If you can see your car tires from the drivers seat then you know what I mean. 

Anyway... Point was more along the lines of I've done enough cutting in this car. I'm not fond of doing additional cutting.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Just to be clear... I said firewall. If you can see your car tires from the drivers seat then you know what I mean.
> 
> Anyway... Point was more along the lines of I've done enough cutting in this car. I'm not fond of doing additional cutting.



Touché.

In other words, either Fred Flintstone your car or go home.  hehe


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Touché.
> 
> In other words, either Fred Flintstone your car or go home.  hehe
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


well, I'm more like one-foot Flintstone... but yea...

lol


I wouldn't be adverse to cutting the section you and Benny did but there's really no point in doing that in my car. The motor structure itself is blocked by the frame rail which I am not about to cut.


----------



## SQram

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I can watch my wheels go round and round if I pull my midbass out...

I have the added security of riding on a 1 ton truck frame though, don't think I'd be as ambitious cutting up a unibody car.

Too bad the 12's didn't work out, was looking forward to seeing your progress. Any thought given to a low profile 12' such as the Illusion C12?


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

got any pics of your holes? would love to see what you did at the firewall. that may already be documented right here in this thread - but we are at 1,1xx some odd posts and i joined the party recently .

i'm also upping the size of my kicks and am going to be doing some more cutting. trying to get my ducks in a row for that.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



benny z said:


> got any pics of your holes?



I didn't think this was that kind of website.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

"How big is YOUR hole"?

"I can see my feet thru my hole."

...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQram said:


> Too bad the 12's didn't work out, was looking forward to seeing your progress. Any thought given to a low profile 12' such as the Illusion C12?


Every shallow sub I could think of would be questionable at the higher end of the bandpass I need because of the large inductance values (typically a tradeoff of long throw, shallow woofers). None are documented well enough for me to make reasonable guesses as to their motor structure so it wasn't something I saw as a real option for this install.

It would have been cool if the 12" would have fit. And there are some options I found, size wise, that would have worked. Unfortunately some of the same things I said above about shallow woofers apply. 





benny z said:


> got any pics of your holes? would love to see what you did at the firewall. that may already be documented right here in this thread - but we are at 1,1xx some odd posts and i joined the party recently .


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/3276473-post1037.html


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, I can build you these  10"


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/3276473-post1037.html


oh! that was so easy. thank you! i didn't realize that was the ground back behind there. is that black plastic "egg crate" light diffuser material behind there? does water get in?


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AVIDEDTR said:


>



You guys are all missing a pedal! Lmao


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

wife only drives one stick, and it ain't the Dodge.


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Haha mine too. It keeps her from asking to drive my car, anyway


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AVIDEDTR said:


> Erin, I can build you these  10"


That turned out really nice!
I was meaning to message you on FB to ask how the build was going. I haven't seen a build log update. Get on that! (unless I just missed it)




benny z said:


> oh! that was so easy. thank you! i didn't realize that was the ground back behind there. is that black plastic "egg crate" light diffuser material behind there? does water get in?


The black grate you see is actually a scanspeak variovent. I used it when I was using the Revelator/Illuminators and they were aperiodic (AP) then (the ONLY difference between AP and infinite baffle in this case was that AP used a material in the hole to 'tune' the enclosure). There are two parts to it: a top and bottom. One piece simply snaps in to the other to hold the AP material (whatever you use) in place. But since I've not run an AP mat since I put the JL ZR800's in - because they like to be IB - I simply removed the top piece and mat. So a hole right through.

Water definitely can and does get in. It's not terrible and it doesn't soak through the car... I'd have to drive through a VERY deep puddle for anything on that level to happen. More along the lines of water splashing up from my tires. The holes have been there since around 2007, IIRC, and I've never had an issue. Only some rust on driver motors. So realistically probably no more than door speakers.




benny z said:


> You guys are all missing a pedal! Lmao


I've got a backstory to why I don't drive stick shifts. It has to do with a car wreck and a fear of driving for a while after that.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> That turned out really nice!
> I was meaning to message you on FB to ask how the build was going. I haven't seen a build log update. Get on that! (unless I just missed it)


I killed myself from 29th thru the 3rd. Lots got accomplished, still lots to do.
Just need a warm place to work after hours.

I'll update as time provides.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQram said:


> I can watch my wheels go round and round if I pull my midbass out...


I can imagine if you hit a nice pile of nice squishy road kill, animal poo or who knows what kind of toxic road mush, it'd be the luck of the draw you don't spray the back of the mid-bass motor/frame with it. Goin' 4-wheeling might not be the most sanitary thing for a speaker driver as well I bet. LOL!


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Speak for yourself....
> 
> 
> No fear.


I must resist the urge to see if my B5.5 passat wagon has that area. BTW, where's the wire bundle that they stick there?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AVIDEDTR said:


> I killed myself from 29th thru the 3rd. Lots got accomplished, still lots to do.
> Just need a warm place to work after hours.
> 
> I'll update as time provides.


Yea, I knew you said you were staying with Steve or at his shop that weekend. Glad you were able to make the most of it. I may have to take a day or two off work myself just to get some of my install done. This working for 15 minutes every few days isn't really getting me anywhere. Of course, I can't do a lot until I determine exactly which woofer I'm using.

With that said, I ordered a different set of 10" woofers yesterday which should be here Friday. These:
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/26w-4558t00.pdf


I simulated these in an IB configuration and they perform in many regards as similarly to the AE SBP-12 (aside from pure output). Meaning: the FR differences were pretty small (spb-12 was -4dB @ 30hz, while the Scan was -6dB @ 30hz). Both will play well in to my desired low pass filter range (300/400hz). Linear xmax was exceeded at 30hz on both drivers but the mechanical xmax of the scan is much higher which meant that wasn't exceeded until 12hz (the sbp-12 exceeded this at about 25hz). scan uses a shorting ring to mitigate inductance and they have good symmetry in their motor/suspension/inductance curves based on what I've seen before so I feel good about the choice. roll in that it has a rubber surround and aluminum cone which is important for the kicks as they are akin to being door mounted... plus, it's readily available if something were to go awry.


----------



## DS-21

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's their updated XXLS10. Nice woofer.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Yea, I knew you said you were staying with Steve or at his shop that weekend. Glad you were able to make the most of it. I may have to take a day or two off work myself just to get some of my install done. This working for 15 minutes every few days isn't really getting me anywhere. Of course, I can't do a lot until I determine exactly which woofer I'm using.
> 
> With that said, I ordered a different set of 10" woofers yesterday which should be here Friday. These:
> http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/26w-4558t00.pdf
> 
> 
> I simulated these in an IB configuration and they perform in many regards as similarly to the AE SBP-12 (aside from pure output). Meaning: the FR differences were pretty small (spb-12 was -4dB @ 30hz, while the Scan was -6dB @ 30hz). Both will play well in to my desired low pass filter range (300/400hz). Linear xmax was exceeded at 30hz on both drivers but the mechanical xmax of the scan is much higher which meant that wasn't exceeded until 12hz (the sbp-12 exceeded this at about 25hz). scan uses a shorting ring to mitigate inductance and they have good symmetry in their motor/suspension/inductance curves based on what I've seen before so I feel good about the choice. roll in that it has a rubber surround and aluminum cone which is important for the kicks as they are akin to being door mounted... plus, it's readily available if something were to go awry.


You didn't happen to model this sub for a sealed install as well did you? I have a .85 cubic foot enclosure and I'm curious how well it would work in it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



DS-21 said:


> That's their updated XXLS10. Nice woofer.


That's kind of what I was thinking. I looked at the peerless options for this reason but decided to stick with Scan since I've always found their specs to match what I've measured in every regard. That way I know what I'm getting for sure.



Golden Ear said:


> You didn't happen to model this sub for a sealed install as well did you? I have a .85 cubic foot enclosure and I'm curious how well it would work in it.


0.85ft^3 yields a Qtc of 0.72, f3 of 46.51Hz. You wouldn't exceed linear xmax until just over 300w. Looks like you're good to go.


----------



## Golden Ear

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> That's kind of what I was thinking. I looked at the peerless options for this reason but decided to stick with Scan since I've always found their specs to match what I've measured in every regard. That way I know what I'm getting for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0.85ft^3 yields a Qtc of 0.72, f3 of 46.51Hz. You wouldn't exceed linear xmax until just over 300w. Looks like you're good to go.



Nice. Thanks brotha! I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of it in your installation. 


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

cleaned up the kick areas a bit in preparation for fiberglass this weekend. after getting everything out (old clay, CLD) I realized... there's quite a bit of room in these kicks. 









I test-fit the 10" back on the driver's side again. Since I don't have to aim these, I can stand the driver up more. If you look at the 1st picture below, you'll see kind of a partition where the CLD ends... that partition is where the old kick baffle extended to in the floor... and it's about 2" in front of the woofer. So, once I account for a baffle/grille for the 10's, they'll likely be within the same area my old kicks consumed. That's pretty awesome.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Is that the actual 10" you will be using?


----------



## Brian_smith06

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

How will you deal with potential dash rattle issues? I assume you have probably already dealt with this with the old install but just curious. I saw what looked like poly fil stuffed in dash. Was that the trick? Are there copious amounts of ccf and cld in there as well?

My sub is in a jl stealthbox inside my center console and I have had all sorts of rattles/noises from this. I did have to pull the dash out at one point to replace the heater core so while in I made sure everything was tightened and added foam where I could but still having some issues. 

Considering doing the "sandwich" method somebody did awhile back but expanding foam scares me


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bigbubba said:


> Is that the actual 10" you will be using?


Yep.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Brian_smith06 said:


> How will you deal with potential dash rattle issues? I assume you have probably already dealt with this with the old install but just curious.


Your last sentence got it.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice work erin. Enjoy applying 20 layers ;-)

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's a LARGE woofer.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

haha. yea, she'll do. 

I'm looking forward to getting the enclosure built. Hoping I can get it large enough to support a Qtc of 0.5. If so I won't bother IB'ing it. I'd prefer to have sealed for a few reasons in this case.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I agree with you, Mic. I'm not cutting anymore metal... lots of people talk big... not many already have 4" holes cut in their firewalls.


I guess I made the (*******) brave list on that one too then.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> haha. yea, she'll do.
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting the enclosure built. Hoping I can get it large enough to support a Qtc of 0.5. If so I won't bother IB'ing it. I'd prefer to have sealed for a few reasons in this case.



Agreed. Better to be a little undersized on the sealed end and have plenty of power to offset vs a restricted IB that ends up peaky and honky sounding...and requiring more airspace to the outside.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Driver's side kick cleaned up and taped off. This took about an hour to do. I was careful to make sure the tape was rolled to the contour of the car. 






Epoxy resin with a 4:1 ratio from USC was used because it doesn't have a strong odor like Polyester resin does and I will be driving this car and the build progresses so I didn't want to have the car reek of fiberglass smell for the next couple months. 
I also used 3/4 oz mat. The mat I originally tried was 2 oz (which I already had on hand). It was too heavy and didn't conform well to all the contours. It may be hard to tell in the pictures but there are a LOT of contours, especially on the walls. So I ordered up 3/4 oz which worked _much_ better. Though it will ultimately require more layers.

I will say this: Epoxy resin isn't as forgiving as polyester and it has a learning curve. If you use this stuff, you have been warned! Polyester, IME, has much more forgiveness. It's VERY, VERY temperamental (no pun intended). Especially when working in colder temps. 

Here's my experience...
The 4:1 ratio of epoxy resin to hardener is good down to about 45 deg F and since it's cold out and although my garage is well insulated, this is the route I thought it best to go. I kept the garage in the 50-60 range while working the first time. Well, I still had trouble getting the stuff to 'kick' off which left it in a gel state for way too long the first time I tried to mix it. I knew I was doing something wrong. So, I called USC to talk to a tech and he made me feel a bit better. He said most of their calls are due to epoxy resin and said nearly everyone that uses this the first time has trouble. He gave me some good advice such as putting the resin & hardener in warm water before using it. He also said to pour the hardener first, mix that up for a minute, then mix in the resin. He said mix the two until you feel the mixing cup start to get warm; then get to work. Work time depends on how quickly the product kicks (begins to set) and with the 4:1 ratio that's about 15 minutes. 

So, in my second attempt, yesterday, I followed his advice and it definitely helped, though still not as easy as working with polyester resin. There's definitely a temperature/working amount factor to keep in mind here. If you're trying to do a large amount of work in cold temp with the 4:1 you won't have a lot of success. The larger amount you mix the quicker it kicks off. Once you start spreading it out, it will extend this kick time. So, that means to those of you using it out of a cup and brush you might want to do smaller batches if you use a high ratio which has a higher kick time. This is because once this stuff starts to kick and get hot, you have only minutes to work with it before it melts through the cup. If you do what I did, where I poured the mixture in to a tray and soaked the mat pieces in it then the pot life will be extended a bit giving you a bit more time to work with it. So, to recap: if you're working in large batches at a time you need to be quick. Trying to balance my home life with car fab time is tough with this stuff because of how particular it is. IOW, I can't just run out to the garage and slap together some mixture and lay down a few pieces... I have to be as efficient as possible with this stuff so it's more of a PITA. Just passing on some advice. Because of this I'm most likely to hold off building the other kick until it warms up and use a 3:1 ratio or 2:1 ratio with a longer set time so I can do more at once. 

Anyway, I managed to get a few layers of mat down yesterday. More will be needed but I need more resin/hardener so that will have to wait a while.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I did just do another layer... so I guess I'll see how that looks tomorrow.

I am having a tough time with the kickpanel area where the wires are because there's so many contours there and it's a vertical surface. I can't get the mat to stay in place well. So I'm most likely going to pull the mold and finish that out when I can lay it flat. Then as it starts to set in place I'll put it back in the car so it doesn't lose shape. Really, I could probably get by with large flat pieces there but I'm just trying to make it fit as snug as possible. The main thing is getting the shape of the kick area. But even that isn't a HUGE factor... as long as it's reasonably snug it'll suffice. Still... I don't want to have the "I can half-ass it and be OK" attitude because then I'll start cutting corners.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

had enough epoxy resin to finish out the mold. now she's ready for a speaker rings and I'll pop out the mold after determining where/how the ring will be placed.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and here's a couple pics of the materials used...







The orange handle roller is for fiberglass and is used to push/pull out the extra resin so the mat won't be oversaturated. the blue handle thing that looks like a pizza cutter is a corner roller to help push the mat down in the corners. 
both these were ordered from uscomposites.com.

the silver tape is foil tape used in ducting. you can find it at your local hardware store. but, fwiw, my home depot doesn't stock it. lowe's does, however.


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That looks good man. Thank for posting that tape. I've looked and looked atmy local home depot for it and have never found it. I'll have to try Lowes.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good deal, man. Honestly, the only reason I posted the latest updates is so I could talk a bit about the stuff I used and my experience with the epoxy resin. Hopefully it helps people reading it.


----------



## dgage

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Niebur3 said:


> That looks good man. Thank for posting that tape. I've looked and looked atmy local home depot for it and have never found it. I'll have to try Lowes.


Foil duct (AKA real DUCT tape ) tape should be at any big hardware store in the HVAC section where they sale ducting and air registers. May not be the 3M brand but I would expect any of the foil tape to work.


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin,
What is the purpose of using the Foil tape? I have seen many use it and I remember you used it once before on the dash pods, but never understood the benefits or preferences for it.


----------



## hatemi

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The foil tape helps when removing the mold from the corner/cavity. It is so slick, that resin wont stick to it. And it does not let the resin go through to to the structures underneath.


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks Hatemi.

Erin, once again your builds or updates are so helpful and educational. This is why I like these logs, even if I can't build on mine I can still learn something.


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That duct tape can be bought also at hvac locations . Key supply grainger and in variety of different temps. Build is fantastic keep rolling Erin !


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

walmart sells foil tape. HD and Lowes have it. Its in the HVAC section


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I bought the foil tape from HD and I didn't like it. Can't remember why... but the 3m stuff is better.


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I bought the foil tape from HD and I didn't like it. Can't remember why... but the 3m stuff is better.


some are thinner and thicker. usually the stuff that has a label or writing on the tape throughout the entire role is thicker. thicker doesnt wrinkle as easy but also doesnt conform to shapes as well. 

I use a ton of aluminum tape for different projects but for glassing I usually just do a couple layers of painters tape and then cover with a mold release wax/ for large pieces I will tape aluminum foil down in as many areas as possible. Aluminum tape isnt cheap. also sticks really well so can be hard to remove


----------



## ndm

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

,


ErinH said:


> Driver's side kick cleaned up and taped off. This took about an hour to do. I was careful to make sure the tape was rolled to the contour of the car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Epoxy resin with a 4:1 ratio from USC was used because it doesn't have a strong odor like Polyester resin does and I will be driving this car and the build progresses so I didn't want to have the car reek of fiberglass smell for the next couple months.
> I also used 3/4 oz mat. The mat I originally tried was 2 oz (which I already had on hand). It was too heavy and didn't conform well to all the contours. It may be hard to tell in the pictures but there are a LOT of contours, especially on the walls. So I ordered up 3/4 oz which worked _much_ better. Though it will ultimately require more layers.
> 
> I will say this: Epoxy resin isn't as forgiving as polyester and it has a learning curve. If you use this stuff, you have been warned! Polyester, IME, has much more forgiveness. It's VERY, VERY temperamental (no pun intended). Especially when working in colder temps.
> 
> Here's my experience...
> The 4:1 ratio of epoxy resin to hardener is good down to about 45 deg F and since it's cold out and although my garage is well insulated, this is the route I thought it best to go. I kept the garage in the 50-60 range while working the first time. Well, I still had trouble getting the stuff to 'kick' off which left it in a gel state for way too long the first time I tried to mix it. I knew I was doing something wrong. So, I called USC to talk to a tech and he made me feel a bit better. He said most of their calls are due to epoxy resin and said nearly everyone that uses this the first time has trouble. He gave me some good advice such as putting the resin & hardener in warm water before using it. He also said to pour the hardener first, mix that up for a minute, then mix in the resin. He said mix the two until you feel the mixing cup start to get warm; then get to work. Work time depends on how quickly the product kicks (begins to set) and with the 4:1 ratio that's about 15 minutes.
> 
> So, in my second attempt, yesterday, I followed his advice and it definitely helped, though still not as easy as working with polyester resin. There's definitely a temperature/working amount factor to keep in mind here. If you're trying to do a large amount of work in cold temp with the 4:1 you won't have a lot of success. The larger amount you mix the quicker it kicks off. Once you start spreading it out, it will extend this kick time. So, that means to those of you using it out of a cup and brush you might want to do smaller batches if you use a high ratio which has a higher kick time. This is because once this stuff starts to kick and get hot, you have only minutes to work with it before it melts through the cup. If you do what I did, where I poured the mixture in to a tray and soaked the mat pieces in it then the pot life will be extended a bit giving you a bit more time to work with it. So, to recap: if you're working in large batches at a time you need to be quick. Trying to balance my home life with car fab time is tough with this stuff because of how particular it is. IOW, I can't just run out to the garage and slap together some mixture and lay down a few pieces... I have to be as efficient as possible with this stuff so it's more of a PITA. Just passing on some advice. Because of this I'm most likely to hold off building the other kick until it warms up and use a 3:1 ratio or 2:1 ratio with a longer set time so I can do more at once.
> 
> Anyway, I managed to get a few layers of mat down yesterday. More will be needed but I need more resin/hardener so that will have to wait a while.



I have a big tip for you.

I work with epoxy resins too for the same reasons as you. What I can tell you is that my favorite resin is us composites 635 epoxy resins. One thing that I can tell you about fiberglass mat is that epoxy resins do not break down the adhesive binder in the glass mat. Polyester and vinylester resins do break down the adhesive binder. When using epoxy resins you should use woven fiberglass cloth. It will give you more strength with the least possible weight. 

You can also expect that epoxy resin will harden slower than poly or vinylester unless you use the rapid hardner. I prefer the extended work time of epoxy because I can get my layup done in basically one session and it is cured in roughly 8 hrs to the touch. By 12 hours it is much more rigid and almost completely rid of the stickyness. If you wish to have faster layups then buy the rapid hardner. 

Epoxy resins offer little shrinkage too. Poly layups will shrink on you a bit and sometimes warp a little. The slower cure time will help with shrinkage.

Next tip....use the cheap paper cups with a bit of an waxy feel to them. It will not eat the cups like you experienced. I get them in bulk at the dollar stores in the party section.

I also prefer the thinner woven cloths for my layups. They will require more layers but will conform better to angles and edges.

Thats it. If you havs any questions feel free to ask.


As a disclaimer...I have no experience with your brand of resin so maybe they have some additive to break down the adhesives in the mat.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for the info.

I actually did use the 635 from US Composites (that's what I was referencing when I was saying USC). I used the 4:1 ratio due to the colder temps. 

Noted on the cheap paper cups.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good stuff Erin. And good tips there from ndm on the epoxy resin. I pretty much use either the polyester resins or the solar version. The solar version is great when you need a very fast cure, but you have to work out of sunlight and then bring the piece into sunlight to cure. Additionally, I have found that in thick layers when laying up, the solar stuff can have a difficult time kicking the very lowest layer so best to cure up the first layer or two before applying more.

With the Poly resin, i use the method I learned watching Mark Worrell. On a piece of cardboard, use some cheap spray glue and apply a layer of foil (spray on back of foil and stick foil to the cardboard). This is your "table" to work and soak the fiberglass. Cut your pieces to the appropriate size needed for your piece, then mix up a batch of resin. Lay the pieces on the foil board and use your brush to soak the pieces. Apply them one at a time to your masked off work piece and use your brush to conform them to the contours. Works really well. For areas with difficult contours, make sure the FG mat is soaked through well and if necessary use multiple smaller pieces.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I did something similar but I poured the resin in to these trays and soaked the resin that way:
weber aluminum drip pans


I had them on hand from grilling so I gave it a shot and liked doing that. Makes it a bit less messy when working on a table and don't have to worry about resin running off the table you're using.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Gonna ask a super-stupid newb question.. 

For mixing cups (such as the graduated kind), or the trays Erin mentions above, using a poly resin, is the cup or container a throw-away or is the hardened leftover resin removable so the cup can be reused?


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Gonna ask a super-stupid newb question..
> 
> For mixing cups (such as the graduated kind), or the trays Erin mentions above, using a poly resin, is the cup or container a throw-away or is the hardened leftover resin removable so the cup can be reused?


Leaktite 1-qt. Multi-Mix Pail-2M3 - The Home Depot

I get half dozen of those. Unless you mix a stupid hot batch of resin that melts the cup, once the resin has cured you can pop and peal it right out and reuse the cup. 
quick wipe out with acetone to get any residue sometimes, but in general you can reuse the cups a few times


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> Leaktite 1-qt. Multi-Mix Pail-2M3 - The Home Depot
> 
> I get half dozen of those. Unless you mix a stupid hot batch of resin that melts the cup, once the resin has cured you can pop and peal it right out and reuse the cup.
> quick wipe out with acetone to get any residue sometimes, but in general you can reuse the cups a few times


Thanks. I ordered I think 10 or so CON-MM016 pint cups at the top of the US Comp page here









Hopefully the same resilience


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Thanks. I ordered I think 10 or so CON-MM016 pint cups at the top of the US Comp page here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the same resilience


it will work. I prefer quart cups for most projects even small ones. nothing worse than spilling resin except for not realizing that youve spilled resin until much later


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## DLO13

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

those 10s.... are big.


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## ndm

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I did something similar but I poured the resin in to these trays and soaked the resin that way:
> weber aluminum drip pans
> 
> 
> I had them on hand from grilling so I gave it a shot and liked doing that. Makes it a bit less messy when working on a table and don't have to worry about resin running off the table you're using.


That is a great idea! The aluminum pans are cheap and reusable too


----------



## Orion525iT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have used epoxy extensively along with polyester and vinyl ester. The easiest resin to work with is the vinyl ester because the viscosity is so low the fiberglass wets out so much easier than other resins. But the fumes are horrific and you need a respirator. Also, it will never cure properly in the cold.

As someone else already pointed out, using fiberglass mat with epoxy is not a good idea because the binders don't break down which makes it very difficult to conform the glass to difficult areas. In addition, you really want to achieve ideal fabric to resin ratios with epoxy for multiple reasons (expense and strength are the main ones). You can't achieve that easily with mat. 

However, epoxy is great when used with E-glass fabrics. My favorite fabric is style 7781 which is 8.9oz satin weave. It is a tight weave but conforms well and it holds together well when you cut it and while you are applying resin. 7725 is a modified twill weave that drapes better than 7781. However, I find 7725 to be an absolute ***** to work with in hand layups because the fabric wants to pull apart at the edges and the cut shape distorts too easily. 

Doing layups in a car sucks ass. You have to stand on your head, in horrible positions, stipple like a mad man to work in the resin into the fabric, and if you are not very careful you will eventually get resin on places you don't want it to be.

*The great thing about epoxy is the work time and the fact that it will eventually cure even in fairly cold temps; you can use this to your advantage. *How? Well what I have found to work great is to pre-cut the fabric to the size and shape you need. Cut all the layers in alternating directions so that you get maximum strength in all directions. I sometimes make a cardboard or paper template to trace around with a sharpie on the fabric. Sometimes I simply cut the first piece of fabric and carefully handle it and use it to trace the next layers. Cheap fabric scissors work surprisingly well to cut the fabric.*When it comes to laying up the fabric, don't do it in the car!*. Instead take a piece of plywood, and use adhesive spray to cover it with heavy duty aluminum foil (or use peel ply). This is you work area. Take your pre-cut pieces of fabric (I usually number each piece with a sharpy so I know which order and direction to stack them) and place the first piece on the foil covered plywood. Estimate how much resin you will need for all layers, and mix up the batch. Over saturate the first layer with resin by using a resin spreader or a brush; go heavy on the resin! Then take your next layer and lay it over the first. Don't add any more resin at this point. Stipple with a brush so that the second layer soaks up the over saturated resin from the first layer. After about two layers, you can start to use an aluminum resin roller. I usually find that I can add two more layers after the first without adding any more resin. Add additional layers one at a time and apply resin as needed to fully saturate the fabric. Use the roller with heavy even pressure and you will achieve very good resin to fabric ratio, which increases the strength of the lay up. If you are used to laying down mat with copious amounts of polyester resin, you will be surprised by how little resin is actually needed when you achieve very good resin to fabric ratio.*Do not try to use the roller on the first layers!* The 7781 fabric is too light, and epoxy resins generally have higher viscosity than poly or vinyl ester. If you try to wet out with a roller on the first layers, the fabric will want to lift, wrap around the roller, fray the edges and distort the fabric and make a friggin mess. Once you have the first few layers down, they are heavier and will generally want to stick to each other more than the roller. 

Now that you have saturated the fabric layers, start at one corner of the layup, and gently lift all the layers at once off the work surface and lay the entire stack into position in the car. Try to support the fabric evenly, as much as possible, as you lift it off the work surface. The fabric will buckle, bubble between layers, and distort somewhat. But, you still have lots of work time. Even if the resin is starting to gel at this point, you still have plenty of time to work out the bubbles, buckles, and position the fabric. Use a brush or a roller to work out the flaws. Sometimes you may find that you need to slide some individual layers around, but it can be done with patience. 

There is a steep learning curve here. You need to learn how many layers and what size and shape of fabric you can easily wet out, handle and position. I have made the mistake of cutting the fabric pieces too large, and then finding it nearly impossible to put into place without the layup turning into an f'ed up mess. It helps too if you have extra hands to help you transfer the layup into the car. You have already realized that you need to keep the resin cool to maximize work time. If you are working in vertical areas, and you are worried that the layup will slide down or peel away, you can prep the area with resin before hand. Mix up some resin, and paint it onto the vertical surface, let it start to gel and cure. It should stay tacky for a fair amount of time, and it will help the layup stay in place. Also, I frequently check the layup to make sure it stays in the right place. Even hours into the cure, I have been able to correct issues. If you need to trim the layup, the best time to do it is in the middle of the cure cycle when the layup is still flexible, but the layers cannot separate or move. Offset tin snips work great for that.

Cold weather makes epoxy much thicker and it is much more difficult to wet out the fabric. But, it affords you so much work time.


----------



## All-Or-Nothing

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

How did I miss this thread. Sub'd to see the results with the 10's.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, it's been about two months since I've updated this thread. I needed to take a break from here for a bit to focus on getting the install done in preparation for the NC meet that happened this past weekend (and also to get away from some negativity here). 

I posted most of my progress on CAJ as I went, so if you've kept up with the build there, nothing here is different. 

Since it's been on CAJ, I'm going to get my copy/paste on. Therefore, things may seem a bit oddly worded (ie; "last night" might actually be a month ago, lol). 

Let's do this...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> I'll try to keep the explanations of why short here...
> 
> The Scan woofer is a little beast. But it's overall size (depth/magnet diameter) was kind of something I was not really looking forward to accommodating. I looked at other options and found a deal on the Illusion C10 woofers I couldn't pass up. So, I modeled them and found that in 0.6-0.7 cubes the performance was adequate; and pretty much on par with the Scans I have... I was surprised at that. But, before going through the trouble of building kicks that would ultimately be too small to support anything else should the Illusions not provide the performance I need (namely, mating to the midrange), I knew I'd need some test enclosures. Enter... eBay. $35 shipped for a pair of 0.91 ft^3 enclosures. That was a no-brainer for test enclosures.
> 
> So today I loaded down the enclosures with bricks to get me to about 0.65 ft^3 internal space and dropped the c10's in. The enclosures were to make sure they pass the "loud" test and also mate to the GB25's on the higher end. I used a low-pass of about 280hz @ 12dB and played around with the crossover on the low end from no crossover to a 20hz/LR2 filter for protection. I had them hooked up to my midbass channels and I had to drop the levels on the channels about 5dB from where the midbass were before (a few dB's was probably due to the fact that the big test enclosures made the drivers physically closer to me).
> 
> I intentionally beat on them pretty hard with all sorts of music, from Bowie to Dre, Shenandoah to Drum Improv tracks - to determine how they'd do on the low end and also how they sounded on the higher end, since mating to the GB25's is important here. They were _definitely_ moving but they never made any mechanical noise. I played some rap with <30hz content and they didn't complain. These woofers flat out get down. They are no joke.
> On the higher end of the scale, I found no cause for complaints. There was no audible distortion or drag to the drivers in the lower midrange. I took the crossover to 500hz just to see how they'd do and all was well. From my understanding these drivers use shorting rings to lower IMD, which would certainly help with lower midrange performance. Bottom line: the performance from 20-500hz was completely satisfactory, to my delight.
> 
> So, they'll stay. I just hope I can manage to find the time to actually get them installed before the NC meet. Time hasn't been on my side lately.
> 
> Anyway, here's some random pictures...






erinh said:


> it's just a trial to make sure the output and ability to match to the mids fine is there. they'll be put in the kicks like the JL's were. Just gotta find the time/weather to get this started. I'm seriously considering having the enclosure be part of the entire front floor space on the driver's side in order to get the airspace I want. I'd raise the floor about 1.5"... which is about the thickness of all the crap I had under there before (2 layers of LLP mlv/ccf and the insulation/padding).


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll say I heard it. In a word...










Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....




erinh said:


> In update news, I managed to get a little bit more done. I've decided to go sealed for the woofers. Better woofer control and safety for the drivers on the backside and no leaking of the sound out for the rest of the world to hear. With the C10 being so shallow I am able to get more footspace but naturally that means the enclosure volume behind it is smaller. To get the space I need on the passenger side I can build the enclosure the length of the firewall. But the driver's side is a different animal thanks to the gas/brake pedals. I did some looking and measuring and found if I build a floor enclosure I can eek out about 0.25-0.4 cubic feet, depending on height. That's not chump change. The floor height with MLV/foam/misc stuff was already raised about 2.25". If I build the floor up (including top layer) 1.75" I can get near 0.3 cubes. If I build it up to a total of 2.50" I can get an additional 0.40 cubes. Braced well, the enclosure shouldn't vibrate at my feet. So, here goes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After my initial cursing of Epoxy resin I have to say I really do like this stuff. I understand now why so many installers prefer it: longer working time (if you need it; otherwise add heat), no smell. Since I'm nearly out I ordered a new batch of that. I'm hoping to get started on the passenger side some night after work this week once it shows up.
> 
> 
> In other news, I've finished up my NC meet disc. I'm digging it. I hope others do, too.
> 
> 
> That's all for now. Thanks for tuning in!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Passenger side started tonight in preparation for Kelly and Kevin coming tomorrow.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Kevin and Kelly came over yesterday and helped me put a pretty big dent in the install. We didn't completely finish everything but that wasn't for a lack of trying. Kevin and Kelly were relentless in their efforts and I really can't thank them enough. Without their help I wouldn't stand a chance of having this install wrapped up in time for the NC meet. I woke up this morning barely able to move and my hands are sore... cuts all over them from random stuff. I know the other guys are probably feeling the same way.
> 
> So, here's some pictures of the day's progress. I'll try to break this down in to sections so it won't be all over the place.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> *Kick panels. *
> 
> Kelly and I talked about how to finish these out. Came up with a game plan and I let Kelly do his thing. I've seen his install skills before and was totally confident he didn't need me leaning over his shoulder telling him how I'd do it.
> 
> Kelly doin' werk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mock up of the woofer/baffle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mold pulled and marked to be cut:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the structure. Obviously there's still work to be done, but the general idea is there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a *lot* more work that went on here but I didn't get many pictures. From what is there you really wouldn't think it took that long but Kelly put in a LOT of work test fitting and cutting to build the structures. The woofers are physically further back than the JL's were which is pretty darned awesome. Once I get it finished up I'll post more pictures.​


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> *Amp wall:*
> 
> Kevin's trunk setups always look cool (see here). Simple and understated. I had mentioned to him I wanted to do something similar. I don't like a lot of 'flash' so my goal was to do something along the lines of a metal mesh window showing off a couple of the amps. He spent the morning lining up the amps and tracing out the baffle wall's beauty panel. He asked what I wanted the 'window' to look like and I said I was thinking maybe an oval but asked them what they thought about doing something with letters... like JL Audio. From there the idea came up to copy the JL logo pictured below. Kelly drew the letters and Kevin cut them out and wrapped the panel up.
> 
> First up, this is what's going in the wall:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin, doing work:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Letters for the beauty panel cut with metal mesh behind it for amp protection. Look how straight those lines are!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had to hold the metal mesh down _somehow_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some lighting for the cool factor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone is curious, this is the LED light set I purchased. It included a ridiculous amount of lights, power supply, remote, and 'controller' with IR sensor. I actually got the set without the power supply but I'd recommend just buying the set with it, then cutting off the cord so you can connect it to your 12v turn-on wire (or whatever you plan to use). I do plan to purchase a switch of some sort but for now I'm using the remote to turn the lighting on.​


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> I kind of did random stuff and didn't take many pictures. Mainly just helping Kevin and Kelly where I could and running wires and otherwise prepping for the install. I did manage to get the outlet for the power supply installed which I'm really excited about. The power supply will be permanently installed (well, as permanently as 3 screws can be) in the trunk and I'm using an RV electrical receptacle (link here) to facilitate being able to simply run an extension cord to the car for power. This will work great for instances where there's rain and in general it's just 'cleaner' than having a power supply sitting on the ground by my car. I chose to put the outlet under the bumper so it's hidden. The wire runs up through the trunk's vent hole and will be connected the power supply's plug in the trunk. The power cord will be well insulated to protect against anything dangerous and the vent will be put back in (but modified to accommodate the plug).
> 
> Hole drilled, receptacle installed:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> A couple extra amp wall pictures I forgot...
> 
> I ordered some white vinyl on Amazon for the amp wall. The idea was that the white would really make the LEDs pop and add some contrast to the black/silver amps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other side of the amp wall supports the JL XD400/4, Helix DSP Pro and distro block:


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

reason for the swap from the HD to XDv2 amps...



erinh said:


> Fewer amps. Money in my pocket. Slightly more power for mids and tweeters. A little less for woofers (but who needs 750 watts really). No "sq" reasons whatsoever.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> FWIW, with the new amps, the following power structure will apply:
> XD1000/5v2's: one for each side (left and right): tweeter and mid bridged for 200w each. Woofer gets 400w. (14.4v spec)
> XD400/4v2: rear fill. Bridged for now. 200w each. (14.4v spec)
> 
> The 12.5v input ratings bring it down to about 180w for tweeters, mids and rear fill and 360w for woofers.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Got the power supply installed last night. I considered installing it in the rear quarter panel behind the trunk liner so it would be hidden and out of the way but ultimately I decided to install it under the rear deck for a) ease of access to the fuses and b) ease of access to the terminals should I ever need to help power someone's system (which I've done a few times before).
> 
> Standing behind the trunk it's not visible until you duck down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The power supply wires feed in to my distribution block where it's also fused (I like fuses). It "backfeeds" the system power. So when the 120v plug is connected the system is powered through the power supply. When disconnected, the system is powered from the battery. Still need to run power/ground for it. Right now I'm waiting on an additional 0 gauge ring terminal.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Pulled the passenger side enclosure and added some bracing. Wrapped it up in some spare grille cloth I had (pack-rat FTW) and then added layers of glass mat/cloth as I saw necessary. drying now, and once it dries up I'll cut out the hole for the woofer and add mat where needed.
> 
> first off, I built a work bench last week so I could have an area to work on. put some cardboard on it and stapled it in to place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to take a picture of the 'final' bracing. I cut some pieces of MDF to cover the large gaps at the top. Saves me fiberglass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ugliness that is the 80% completed project:


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> non-audio upgrade...
> 
> Every 8-10 months I was having to clean my headlights because, at 10 years old, this car's headlights are more like fog-lights. (tehehe)
> Rather than continuing to buy restorer, I picked up a set of (non OEM) replacements for a pretty decent price on eBay. They both showed up last night but one arrived damaged so I'm waiting to get it replaced. I won't put these on until I get the car put back together, but it will be a nice upgrade that will make the car look a bit nicer from the outside.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> The enclosure is dry. I gave it the ol "can you stand on it test" and it supports my weight without any cracking or creaking. Even jumping around on it. So, cool!
> 
> I definitely have some trim work to do on the excess cloth, though. I tried to get to work fast and the irony is it's going to cost me more time having to cut the excess with a dremel when I could have trimmed it with scissors before I added resin.
> 
> That's what rushing gets you. Kind of like cut twice, measure once.






erinh said:


> After about an hour worth of grinding excess down I got the enclosure in. Super snug. I need to do some glassing inside to strengthen areas I couldn't build up on the outside (wouldn't have fit if I did) but after that it's a simple matter of painting and carpeting. Then build some grilles.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Got the enclosure finished. Waiting for t to dry and then it goes in place (with the help of some wax, haha).
> 
> For some corner areas I used this mat from USC. It's already it individuals stands. I mixed it up in the epoxy and then poured it in and dabbed it in to place with a chip brush.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also went ahead and changed the oil in my car and my wife's car. AND I sold an amp. AND Kentucky won the SEC championship game today.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....




erinh said:


> Haha. Thanks guys for the encouragement. :thumbup:
> 
> I got a few things in the mail yesterday for the install. I ordered 3 rolls of Tesa tape after borrowing a few pieces from Kevin. This stuff has an OEM look and isn't supposed to get all sticky like electrical tape does when it gets hot. I also ordered up a small voltage display that I will put somewhere (not sure where yet) to keep an eye on the voltage just in case I accidentally come unplugged or the car needs to be plugged in.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> So, I made a little bit of progress tonight with the driver's side enclosure.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> after working clear through the weekend I decided I needed a day off. Plus, with the bad weather rolling in today, I didn't really feel up to driving to work with a 4" hole exposed in my firewall. So, I took the day off and got some more progress on the enclosure. Took a while to get the grille cloth stretched and glued/stapled in to place but I made sure to trim any excess before I started applying resin so I wouldn't have to deal with cutting it down with the dremel later.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> few more layers of glass inside the passenger enclosure and she's a sturdy as a redwood:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also, added some lead sheeting to the driver's side enclosure...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> putting my big ol' JBL horn to good use:


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Was ready to call the enclosures finished but had some trouble getting the woofer to sit flush on the passenger enclosure. So I cut off the grille cloth and glass near the portion where the flat baffle meets the mounting ring and instead poured a cocktail of glass strands and resin down in there to seal it off. Woofer sits flush now and the area is now more stout.
> 
> Area circled in red is the area of interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also stayed up late to get most of the wiring done. I just have to run speaker wire and a few other misc wires and then I'll be ready to fire it up.
> 
> Factory star ground used for the headunit and distro block ground.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> yea, me, too. lol.
> 
> I spent about 3 hours last night working on this. Spent 45 minutes chasing down why the power supply didn't seem to be powering the system properly. Long story short, the ground to the power supply wasn't even connected. I guess when I loomed the wires I hid this fact from myself. At least it was a simple fix. :shrugs:
> It is times like this when I remember how much I hate running wires, though. I spent hours and it looks like nothing was done. Wiring is a huge time sink.
> 
> 
> I spent the remaining time prepping the kick enclosures for install.
> I will be using a layer of SDS Extruded Butyl Rope to decouple the enclosure itself from the floor/firewall which should really help alleviate any vibrations carried through the car from the enclosure. I'll also use the EBR to help (because I'll still be bolting the woofer to the enclosure) decouple the woofer from the enclosure. So a layer of EBR will be going between the enclosure baffle and the speaker mounting rings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ran the speaker wire through and sealed with silicone. Used a paint brush to get the silicone to fill in the holes completely.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Ordered a backup camera a few months ago to go with my headunit. This is what I bought :
> [2-LED Night Vision] Esky EC180-19 180° Viewing Angle 100% Waterproof High-Definition CCD Vehicle Car Rear View Backup Camera https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T2GX37A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_ZTD.wbHCFKN9X
> 
> 
> So just a few pictures...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty happy with the picture of the camera. Will have to calibrate the guide lines for it tomorrow.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> new headlights installed. looksmuuuuuuch better on the car now. maybe one of these days I'll get the bumper painted. but for now, it's a start.
> 
> 
> 
> before
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> comparo of the old vs new:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> installed:


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Kind of along the same lines, I've been wanting to get a new windshield for about a year now. The car has 183k miles and is 10 years old. The windshield has numerous small dents/chips in it and really does bother me in the afternoons/mornings because I drive directly toward the sun to/from work. But I just didn't see that as justification to spend money on a new one. Well, a few days ago I got drilled by a rock. I took this picture after I got home. It's just to the right of directly in front of me and has been spreading since then. So I made an appointment with Safelite to replace it. The soonest they could do it is Thursday morning. I leave for NC the next morning. So I'll be driving with a new windshield.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (you can also see some of the numerous little dings/dents/pits I have... the whole windshield is littered with them)


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> Well, finally made a HUGE step in the kick enclosures... they are now done!
> 
> Started off with some of Don's Extruded Butyl Rope applied to an MDF ring to add a layer of vibration damping between the enclosure and the woofers. There is an MDF layer between the two which is still sandwiched in place via some screws but according to Don, that should still help some.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I screwed the ring in place to let the ring get adhered to the enclosure.
> 
> 
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> 
> On the driver's side I applied a layer of second skin luxury liner pro that I had left over. This should help to decouple my feet from the enclosure.
> 
> 
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> 
> Backed out the screws holding the MDF rings in place and then applied carpet. Donezo!
> 
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> 
> I didn't necessarily need to apply carpet now because the whole floor will be covered in black carpet so it'll look seamless. But, just in case I screwed up cutting the carpet, I wanted to make sure anything that shown through was carpeted as well.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> You guys motivated me to stay up and go ahead and get the enclosures installed. So thanks. But I'll probably be cursing you in the morning at 5am. Lol.
> 
> So I got the enclosures installed and hooked up all the speakers so I could do a sanity check on it.
> I used a layer of extruded butyl tape on the back to help squash vibration through the car which definitely seems to have helped. There's minimal seat vibration now.
> 
> There is some tactile at the feet but surprisingly (yes, even though I was hopeful I still had doubts) it's very minimal. Less than my previous setup. I've literally demoed systems with door speakers that have more tactile energy at the feet than this setup. Which makes me pumped!
> 
> All in all this worked out nearly as great as I had hoped... I just wish I had gotten it done faster. I still need to properly set gains before I begin the tuning process but since the mid and tweeter haven't changed all I'll need to do is integrate the woofers. So far, though, I'm pretty stoked!
> 
> On with the pictures...


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> FWIW, I measured the XD1000/5v2 outputs yesterday with the SMDD-1 and checked voltage with a DMM. Unloaded, one channel at a time with 13.4v input from power supply to car, I got 30.8 volts out. which is roughly 235w @ 4 ohm on the main front channels (bridged).
> It's rated 200w @ 4ohm with 14.4v input on the front channels.
> So there's no doubt they make rated power. I mentioned it to Manville and he said that didn't surprise him and gave me the impression the spec is with all channels loaded.
> That's's why JL rocks. Because they give legit specs.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> spent today getting the car ready for the drive tomorrow.
> 
> first up... new windshield!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it looks SO much better than it did before. no more driving around looking through a windshield that looks like someone sand blasted it.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

....



erinh said:


> and finally, my stopping point before the meet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still have a laundry list of things I want to do but they'll have to wait. I'm honestly burnt out right now. I've not spent much family time with my family the past two weeks. I've been busting my tail trying to get done before this weekend. I need a break.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.... 

that's pretty much where I am now. 


Still lots of little install things I need to do and need to finish out the kicks cosmetically (as well as adding grilles to protect them). 




*Just to recap the gear:
Speakers:*

Tweeters - Dayton Audio nd16fa-6
Midrange - Audiofrog GB25
Bass - Illusion Audio c10
Rears... TBD


*Amps:*

JL Audio XD1000/5v2. One for each side (left/right). Front channels bridged for tweeter & mids (200x2) and sub channel for the illusion 10's.
JL Audio XD400/4v2 for rear fill.


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## BlackHHR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What up Erin?? Looks like you have been very busy. Well done sir !!


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## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Great to see the update in here and that you haven't completely abandoned the thread. I kept up with the build over on CAJ, even though I'm not active over there. This installation seems like quite a departure from most of your previous installations. I would love to find a way to be able to hear it at some point. I doubt I'll ever be able to make that happen though. I look forward to the continued progress and "completion."


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## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand....
> 
> 
> 
> that's pretty much where I am now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still lots of little install things I need to do and need to finish out the kicks cosmetically (as well as adding grilles to protect them).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Just to recap the gear:
> 
> Speakers:*
> 
> 
> Tweeters - Dayton Audio nd16fa-6
> 
> Midrange - Audiofrog GB25
> 
> Bass - Illusion Audio c10
> 
> Rears... TBD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Amps:*
> 
> 
> JL Audio XD1000/5v2. One for each side (left/right). Front channels bridged for tweeter & mids (200x2) and sub channel for the illusion 10's.
> 
> JL Audio XD400/4v2 for rear fill.




So the rear subs are completely gone? Nice. I wish I could/had the guts to do this in my car.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BlackHHR said:


> What up Erin?? Looks like you have been very busy. Well done sir !!


I appreciate it. I wish I had your skills to finish it and make it look better but I'll have to make due with my fifteen thumbs. LOL.

Hope to see you soon, man! 





rton20s said:


> Great to see the update in here and that you haven't completely abandoned the thread. I kept up with the build over on CAJ, even though I'm not active over there. This installation seems like quite a departure from most of your previous installations. I would love to find a way to be able to hear it at some point. I doubt I'll ever be able to make that happen though. I look forward to the continued progress and "completion."


I don't look at it as that big of a departure. But I understand where you're coming from. Yea, I doubt we'd ever be able to tag up but if you are ever in the North Alabama area feel free to hit me up! Heck, Daniel Elo was in my neck of the woods last summer and we met up for supper for a while. Never know. Heck, I'll actually be in Anaheim in October visiting the Mouse. 




quality_sound said:


> So the rear subs are completely gone? Nice. I wish I could/had the guts to do this in my car.


yep... subs are gone. kick install isn't for everyone nor everyone's cup of tea but it was just the next logical step for me. I'm digging it, though, for sure. There were definitely moments during the build where I thought to myself "man, this better work out", lol.


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## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yeah that's quite a leap, but they're moving some air I'd imagine, so maybe not as big a drop in output as it usually is for kick mounted "midbass".

I think the next step is to buy a Porsche and build a front blow through.


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## bertholomey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What I thought was so cool about them (in my opinion, during the 30 minute demo I had), the cones had very little movement - even at decent listening volume. So there wasn't this big pant leg moving crush of moving air. 

And.....I really like the placement of the volume knob......personally, I thought that was brilliant - I know you said it was temporary, but it just 'worked' for me.


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## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Agreed. And the tactile feel (hot topic lately) on the driver side was pretty darn good considering your tootsies are literally riding on a sub enclosure. Well done. But I made sure to see what the system would do and was amazed at the sheer output potential without breaking a sweat, and maintaining the delicacy and composure in the detail and stage. Given the design goals I remember such as the older car the guy did with B&W 800 drivers, I'd say goal achieved of basically a solid home reference 3-way system well-tuned with a steering wheel as reminder you're in a doggone car. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bertholomey said:


> And.....I really like the placement of the volume knob......personally, I thought that was brilliant - I know you said it was temporary, but it just 'worked' for me.


Well, cool! I had a few others say that as well. Cook actually said the same when I stopped by the MECA show on Sunday. Kind of funny... I wanted to try it temporarily but now will probably wind up keeping it there based on the feedback I got.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bertholomey said:


> What I thought was so cool about them (in my opinion, during the 30 minute demo I had), the cones had very little movement - even at decent listening volume. So there wasn't this big pant leg moving crush of moving air.





Babs said:


> Agreed. And the tactile feel (hot topic lately) on the driver side was pretty darn good considering your tootsies are literally riding on a sub enclosure. Well done. But I made sure to see what the system would do and was amazed at the sheer output potential without breaking a sweat, and maintaining the delicacy and composure in the detail and stage. Given the design goals I remember such as the older car the guy did with B&W 800 drivers, I'd say goal achieved of basically a solid home reference 3-way system well-tuned with a steering wheel as reminder you're in a doggone car.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the feedback, fellas. It's appreciated! Especially after the long process it took me to get here. In my head I was worried that getting away from the 15's was going to be a big step down but to my surprise it wasn't. And tonally, it was a good step up. I still have the output I need which is saying a lot (yea, of course <30hz isn't the same but I don't listen to Pipe Organs, either). Having the sealed enclosures really helps to control the system. What's even more surprising is I went from numerous bands of EQ on the midbass to only 1 band of EQ at 125hz with a 1.5dB cut. That's it. I couldn't be happier with the imaging and tonality I got from this move to these woofers up front. Like I said, I had my doubts but in the end it worked out. 

Beside the 'output' concern, there was also the concern that a 10" would mate to a 2.5". I was confident they would because I understood the Illusion c10's have quite some engineering in them. But I had a lot of people question that move and I could understand where they were coming from. Still, in the end the c10's showed their prowess as more than just a 'subwoofer' or 'woofer'. They will gladly play in to the mid-midrange area (500hz) without a hint of trouble via breakup or IMD. Which gives them plenty of overlap for my use: 20-250hz/LR2, where the frogs pick up at about 290hz/LR4. And on that note, the AudioFrog GB25 is one heck of a midrange. To date, it's the most impressive driver I've used, bar none. It covers a very wide range and fits in a very small package. Without it, I wouldn't be able to do some of the things I'm able to do in this install that go so far in to helping the system perform the way I want it to. 

I put in a lot of time on these and I'm really happy that I can say the work paid off. I would have been bummed as heck if I did all this only to find it wasn't what I wanted. Now I can move on to trying to make it look better and finish out this install.


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## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Well, cool! I had a few others say that as well. Cook actually said the same when I stopped by the MECA show on Sunday. Kind of funny... I wanted to try it temporarily but now will probably wind up keeping it there based on the feedback I got.


Yeah that volume control setup with the HD-RLC is very very cool. I wish I had gotten the nickel tour of the wiring up on that. It lends options I think for lots of goodies.. One such being the MiniDSP HD DSP's  with FIR filtering. A couple of those which can stream from optical or USB might be potentially special.










However, no "controller" type of volume control like their car DSP. No sweat! Just do the volume directly at the JL amps via the HD-RLC. Problem solved. And doesn't matter which DSP or source in the mix. Guess you know what amps I'm digging if I do any upgrades and stick class-D.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

yea, I love having the JL RL-HDC for my master volume control. System is dead quiet.


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## CDT FAN

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> And on that note, the AudioFrog GB25 is one heck of a midrange. To date, it's the most impressive driver I've used, bar none. It covers a very wide range and fits in a very small package. Without it, I wouldn't be able to do some of the things I'm able to do in this install that go so far in to helping the system perform the way I want it to.


How do the GB25's compare to the 12M's?

The install looks really nice.

That floor mat looks too cozy with the gas pedal. From experience, I can say that can scare the crap out of you when it doesn't let the throttle close.


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## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Lower distortion, more power handling, and smaller cabinet space, no grill required, cone designed for automotive environment.

....add to cart

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



CDT FAN said:


> How do the GB25's compare to the 12M's?
> 
> The install looks really nice.
> 
> That floor mat looks too cozy with the gas pedal. From experience, I can say that can scare the crap out of you when it doesn't let the throttle close.


basically: 12m is larger, can cross lower but beams earlier. gb25 fits in small spaces and covers a wider bandwidth. 

floor mat is the same one I've been using for the past couple years. hasn't been modified other than on the side where the woofer is. held in place via the seat bolts.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> yep... subs are gone. kick install isn't for everyone nor everyone's cup of tea but it was just the next logical step for me. I'm digging it, though, for sure. There were definitely moments during the build where I thought to myself "man, this better work out", lol.


I hear ya. If I keep this car long enough I want to put something under the front floor pan. Just have to see if the driveshaft for the AWD and the exhaust leave me enough room.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> basically: 12m is larger, can cross lower but beams earlier. gb25 fits in small spaces and covers a wider bandwidth.
> 
> floor mat is the same one I've been using for the past couple years. hasn't been modified other than on the side where the woofer is. held in place via the seat bolts.


I'd like to see them compared to the C3 or C3CX since they're almost identical in diameter, depth, frame size, and enclosure requirement. I've been going back and forth on them for a few months now.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

In my car, "almost" identical was the difference in going behind my pillars or not. I literally mean 2mm difference was the breaking point.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> In my car, "almost" identical was the difference in going behind my pillars or not. I literally mean 2mm difference was the breaking point.


I remember you mentioning that it was very tight. I didn't think it was those 2mm. That's crazy


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> I'd like to see them compared to the C3 or C3CX since they're almost identical in diameter, depth, frame size, and enclosure requirement. I've been going back and forth on them for a few months now.


This is the same thing I have been wondering as well. They seem to be fairly similar drivers. But as Erin said, if a couple mm difference it too much, it is too much. Still, I'd like to see someone do a legitimate A/B comparison at some point. I know I am very happy with the C3s in my car.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> yea, I love having the JL RL-HDC for my master volume control. System is dead quiet.



Interesting that you point that out. I was told recently that my noise floor was "non-existant". Yes, I'm also running CLASS D amplifiers (JL HD). 

They're the only piece of equipment in my install that is safe from the fear of being swapped.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> This is the same thing I have been wondering as well. They seem to be fairly similar drivers. But as Erin said, if a couple mm difference it too much, it is too much. Still, I'd like to see someone do a legitimate A/B comparison at some point. I know I am very happy with the C3s in my car.



The GB25's have testing results up on Erin's site. Fantastic distortion performance from the GB25 and really nice frequency response as well out to beaming point with only a slight dip (but it's still omni there and should be easily rectified with EQ). It's ridiculously tiny and has outstanding build quality. The GB25 is definitely a real winner. It would be hard to imagine the Illusion driver besting it's performance. This thing goes toe to toe with the widely regarded Scan 10f and betters it in distortion performance.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> The GB25's have testing results up on Erin's site. Fantastic distortion performance from the GB25 and really nice frequency response as well out to beaming point with only a slight dip (but it's still omni there and should be easily rectified with EQ). It's ridiculously tiny and has outstanding build quality. The GB25 is definitely a real winner. It would be hard to imagine the Illusion driver besting it's performance. This thing goes toe to toe with the widely regarded Scan 10f and betters it in distortion performance.


Yeah to tell ya the truth, I'd have had to be a copy-cat once again by going with these. Was fun fondling them at the meet. Absolutely petite little things. Though I'm quite thrilled with what's about to happen with the 10F's.

Without referring back to the medleysmusing write-ups, IIRC they were quite comparable in freq, output capabilities, and performance to the 10F's, except the GB25 gets the nod for delivering similar dynamite in a much smaller footprint, and in smaller volume if sealed. Plus, I gotta fab up my own grills.  Andy knocked it out of the park with the GB25's. The little mouse that roars.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Interesting that you point that out. I was told recently that my noise floor was "non-existant". Yes, I'm also running CLASS D amplifiers (JL HD).
> 
> They're the only piece of equipment in my install that is safe from the fear of being swapped.


I'll have to run my lowly PDX's from the other side of the tracks, for a good while yet until I can do something. :laugh: But I am doing some thought for the XD combination for D3004's, 10F's, SB17's or 'ehem' similar midbass, and two IB12's. There's so many ways of combinations to get it done with these XD's though. After hearing Erin's roll, and from memory of Mrs Captain's Corolla, I'm definitely a fan now of the "budget JL HD" (XDv2's). I'd be hard pressed to win between the XD's and HD's in a blind test, though I imagine you guys with time with each could pick them right out. I think either are superb.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> The GB25's have testing results up on Erin's site. Fantastic distortion performance from the GB25 and really nice frequency response as well out to beaming point with only a slight dip (but it's still omni there and should be easily rectified with EQ). It's ridiculously tiny and has outstanding build quality. The GB25 is definitely a real winner. It would be hard to imagine the Illusion driver besting it's performance. This thing goes toe to toe with the widely regarded Scan 10f and betters it in distortion performance.





Babs said:


> Yeah to tell ya the truth, I'd have had to be a copy-cat once again by going with these. Was fun fondling them at the meet. Absolutely petite little things. Though I'm quite thrilled with what's about to happen with the 10F's.
> 
> Without referring back to the medleysmusing write-ups, IIRC they were quite comparable in freq, output capabilities, and performance to the 10F's, except the GB25 gets the nod for delivering similar dynamite in a much smaller footprint, and in smaller volume if sealed. Plus, I gotta fab up my own grills.  Andy knocked it out of the park with the GB25's. The little mouse that roars.


I have no doubt that the GB25s are outstanding drivers, and I have seen Erin's test. I've heard a few installs running AF drivers, including Andy's car, and they were great. 

And it isn't like I am asking how a $12 Fountek FE85 stacks up the the GB25.  I'm asking (and I believe Paul was as well) about a very well regarded 3" driver in the Illusion C3. They are fairly similar in size (C3 is larger in diameter, GB25 s deeper), have similar Xmax and Sd and pretty close Qts. I know there is a lot more to a driver, which is why I had hoped at some point Erin (or someone else) might have a chance to A/B compare or even do similar testing. If mine weren't in use, I would even offer to send them to Erin for testing.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> And it isn't like I am asking how a $12 Fountek FE85 stacks up the the GB25.  I'm asking (and I believe Paul was as well) about a very well regarded 3" driver in the Illusion C3. They are fairly similar in size (C3 is larger in diameter, GB25 s deeper), have similar Xmax and Sd and pretty close Qts. I know there is a lot more to a driver, which is why I had hoped at some point Erin (or someone else) might have a chance to A/B compare or even do similar testing. If mine weren't in use, I would even offer to send them to Erin for testing.


Correct. I'm not expecting Erin to swap anything out in his car, but even a Medley's Musings type of test would be beneficial. Even though the C3 is labeled larger, it is either being optimistic, or AF is being pessimistic. One of them is wrong about their driver size or they're measuring different things. They really are almost identical in every dimension, which is the only reason I'd like to see the comparison. Depending on what goes on with my install and its timeline, I may send him one of my C3CXs to test, if he has time.


----------



## fish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very cool, & a bit unorthodox to what people are used to seeing. 

I'm curious if you considered the JL 10TW1 or 10TW3 for the kicks? Both seem like good candidates, but would be a gamble without knowing their FR on the top end.


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Really enjoyed the 20 minutes I spent in your car. This is the third iteration I've heard and my favorite by far. It works so well, I love everything above the dash being hidden and the illusion woofers are a great match to those Audio frogs. The system doesn't struggle to do anything. Your tunes always sound so "open", like I'm not listening in a car. Excellent work


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What an impressive change. I see that everyone is enjoying the AF 2.5 and Illusion combo. I'd like to compare those AF 2.5 to my CDT ES-02 and see how they match up. But I glad to see you were able to get it all tied up before the NCSQ GTG.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



casey said:


> Really enjoyed the 20 minutes I spent in your car. This is the third iteration I've heard and my favorite by far. It works so well, I love everything above the dash being hidden and the illusion woofers are a great match to those Audio frogs. The system doesn't struggle to do anything. Your tunes always sound so "open", like I'm not listening in a car. Excellent work



Hehehe. Yeah I cranked it up and my eyes got big and I think I said something like "holy ****!". Casey riding shotgun I think replied something like "I know right!" Hehe. Funny moment.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> I'll have to run my lowly PDX's from the other side of the tracks, for a good while yet until I can do something. :laugh: But I am doing some thought for the XD combination for D3004's, 10F's, SB17's or 'ehem' similar midbass, and two IB12's. There's so many ways of combinations to get it done with these XD's though. After hearing Erin's roll, and from memory of Mrs Captain's Corolla, I'm definitely a fan now of the "budget JL HD" (XDv2's). I'd be hard pressed to win between the XD's and HD's in a blind test, though I imagine you guys with time with each could pick them right out. I think either are superb.


I know I couldn't pick one or the other from blind listening. I think you simply pick between XD and HD based on: footprint, style, power configuration and control layout (and price too of course). The XDs have a removable top cover to access controls whereas the HDs are on the side. If I had to swap the HDs for the XDs in my car, I would have zero hesitation about a performance difference. They're tits.


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> I have no doubt that the GB25s are outstanding drivers, and I have seen Erin's test. I've heard a few installs running AF drivers, including Andy's car, and they were great.
> 
> And it isn't like I am asking how a $12 Fountek FE85 stacks up the the GB25.  I'm asking (and I believe Paul was as well) about a very well regarded 3" driver in the Illusion C3. They are fairly similar in size (C3 is larger in diameter, GB25 s deeper), have similar Xmax and Sd and pretty close Qts. I know there is a lot more to a driver, which is why I had hoped at some point Erin (or someone else) might have a chance to A/B compare or even do similar testing. If mine weren't in use, I would even offer to send them to Erin for testing.


I'd enjoy seeing testing on the C3 as well. It appears to also be very well made and have very attractive specs too. Would be nice to see FR and HD testing to see how it stacks up. We're pretty fortunate to have a nice selection of extremely high performance midranges like these available- and at reasonable pricing and with very installation friendly dimensions!


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> I'd enjoy seeing testing on the C3 as well. It appears to also be very well made and have very attractive specs too. Would be nice to see FR and HD testing to see how it stacks up. We're pretty fortunate to have a nice selection of extremely high performance midranges like these available- and at reasonable pricing and with very installation friendly dimensions!


Indeed. Maybe some day.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> Indeed. Maybe some day.


Well, make it happen:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/262674-dayton-omni-mic-v2.html

I had no knowledge on speaker testing but took the plunge years back because there was no one out there willing to test what I wanted to see. If I can, you can, too. Seriously. If you want advice/guidance I'm more than happy to help if you (whoever) PM me. 

Personally, I don't have the time to test drivers right now. So, let's move on from that particular topic in this thread.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> ..In my head I was worried that getting away from the 15's was going to be a big step down but to my surprise it wasn't. And tonally, it was a good step up. I still have the output I need which is saying a lot (yea, of course <30hz isn't the same but I don't listen to Pipe Organs, either). Having the sealed enclosures really helps to control the system. What's even more surprising is I went from numerous bands of EQ on the midbass to only 1 band of EQ at 125hz with a 1.5dB cut. That's it. I couldn't be happier with the imaging and tonality I got from this move to these woofers up front...


Interesting you mention <30hz etc, elluding to not as much low low sub bass. What I heard this time I think was more musical, accurate and I detected nothing missing. I think you eliminated two key things here.. the need to work to keep mid-bass from overwhelming, and unnecessary subsonics pressurizing the cabin which can't really be heard or distinguished from the road, or rather would have to overpower road noise, when rolling. IMHO. And, achieved with one less crossover point.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, I will say that you are one bad influence. That's all I care to say about that.  

You mentioned the GB25's are crossed down to around 290hz, where do you have the tweeters picking up on the top end?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Haha. Fair enough. 

The LPF on the gb25 is about 6khz. I don't recall exactly but it's something very close to that.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Everyone talking about the Illusion and AF speakers...what about those $10 tweeters?


----------



## claydo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Everyone talking about the Illusion and AF speakers...what about those $10 tweeters?


Lmao, werd. Those 10 buck tweeters sounded right sweet to my ears.......


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



claydo said:


> Lmao, werd. Those 10 buck tweeters sounded right sweet to my ears.......



I should snapped off a pic when I had one in my hand. They're tiny. Itty bitty little things with a great little freq response.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



fish said:


> I'm curious if you considered the JL 10TW1 or 10TW3 for the kicks? Both seem like good candidates, but would be a gamble without knowing their FR on the top end.


from what I'm told, those woofers really aren't built for anything higher than typical subwoofer frequencies... I'd imagine 200hz or so would be plenty fine. Possibly 250hz. But beyond that, I think the performance in to the midrange area would be questionable. I'm not certain, but I don't believe they use shorting rings and additionally the baskets are pretty large which is a concern as you start getting in to the higher frequencies where a basket reflection could cause issues (not at all uncommon with subwoofers; which drives the notion home that these simply were never designed to be used higher than the typical subwoofer range).


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Everyone talking about the Illusion and AF speakers...what about those $10 tweeters?





claydo said:


> Lmao, werd. Those 10 buck tweeters sounded right sweet to my ears.......





Babs said:


> I should snapped off a pic when I had one in my hand. They're tiny. Itty bitty little things with a great little freq response.


I know, right? Itty bitty little tweeters. $10... excellent value. Even if the price were literally 10x that much, I'm not convinced I could find anything better in regards to needing a tweeter that can be used above 6khz. Below this range, I'd probably be more cautious as I entered the 4khz region. These make a perfect mate to a small midrange where omnidirectionality is the goal (as was the case in my car). 

I paid money where I needed to in order to get performance that other, lower cost, options didn't really permit (ie; the c10 shallow depth but great output and higher crossing and the gb25 with it's very wide bandwidth). In a way, the GB25 allowed me to save money on a tweeter because it plays low while also playing high, permitting the use of a $10 tweeter.


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

They look tiny in pictures, but _feel_ even more miniscule in your hand.




I'm using big words nao


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigAl205 said:


> They look tiny in pictures, but _feel_ even more miniscule in your hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using big words nao




The mids are also crazy small. Andy has sorcery and black magic in these little drivers I believe.


----------



## bradknob

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> The mids are also crazy small. Andy has sorcery and black magic in these little drivers I believe.




^^^I second this. There's some next level wizardry in these. Thanks Andy for proving that size does NOT matter. Here they are in my stubby lil hand


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I know, these are my GB25 and GB10


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If I didn't already have 10F's on shelf, the choice would be a no-brainer after hearing them. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Impressive work on the enclosures!
I'm surprised you finally went that low for the gb25.
I know my install/tune is not at the same level, but I always had trouble going around 300hz/24db with mine. It wasn't right, they seemed stressed, even sometime some obvious distortion. 
Must be my pods then.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Funny...I settled on 300Hz for my crossover point @24db. Erin, are yours sealed?

I'm thinking of moving mine to the A-pillars based on the feedback you've received. Unfortunately, I don't think mine will be as stealthy as yours...which is why I'm in the kicks right now.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, congrats on meeting your goals, and achieving a basically no-compromise system in the process! Huge :thumbsup:

I've always had "issues" with having huge pods on the A-Pillars and/or dash, + just having the main speaker positions visable (psychoacoustics). Your new install obviously takes care of that problem and removes the main speaker setup from your normal visable/driving eyeline. 

It's also great that you could regain some usability of your trunk...definitely a consideration with a growing family, and/or when you need to carry sports, travel/vacation, or work equipment regularly.

You obviously put A LOT of time, testing, elbow grease, and yes, money into this latest build, but it definitely seems to have paid off. So again, congrats!

One thing that I didn't see (though it was mentioned), is where you "temporarily" mounted the JL Audio HD-LRC knobs(s)? I love these because they are so tiny and do the job perfectly. I've used them in a few installs that I've done for friends and have the Alpine equivalents in one of my own installs using the 2nd Gen PDX amps (ditched the silly Helix Director remote. Argh!).

I'm also interested to see what you come up with for grills for the C10's. 

Keep on keeping on!

L8r,

Billy B.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

With these changes, could you go down a class in MECA to Modified since you aren't venting to the outside of the car any more?


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yes

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Interesting....could be bad news for some.


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin vs KP vs papasin


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

With your old subs IB and your amps now behind the seat, how much trunk room did you gain overall?


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The only down side to a setup like this is if you wanted some extra street bass. But I guess you could have another preset with some added 80 and down.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think two C10's up front should be plenty for most circumstances. Like you said, just dial it up a bit.  Yeah, it's not the same as two 15's IB, but the output of two of those Carbon C10's has gotta be pretty solid unless they're severely choked.


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

He could have gone down to modex with the kef/satori setup too. His vents were/are modex legal. The problem was one season they changed rules saying only a 4" max driver in pods. His kefs broke that. Next season they reworded it and took that out. He just chose to stay in extreme. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wasn't that basically what happened to Jim (BigRed)? Tried the Master Class and they wouldn't let him go back down?

Jay


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

There is an unwritten rule that once to do master you can't move back. As I understand it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> With these changes, could you go down a class in MECA to Modified since you aren't venting to the outside of the car any more?





AVIDEDTR said:


> Yes


Actually, this wouldn't be allowed in Meca Modified.  
The sticking point is the raised floor enclosures. Modex is the lowest. Which happens to be my class too.

Damn.


:surprised:



pocket5s said:


> There is an unwritten rule that once to do master you can't move back. As I understand it.


Yup- correct. It's actually written into the 2016 rules in the description for the Master Class.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



I800C0LLECT said:


> Funny...I settled on 300Hz for my crossover point @24db. Erin, are yours sealed?


Yep, sealed in a really small enclosure. 



bbfoto said:


> One thing that I didn't see (though it was mentioned), is where you "temporarily" mounted the JL Audio HD-LRC knobs(s)? .


Thanks for the kind words. 

Here's a cell phone picture of the volume knob location. It's near the driver's side door handle. I got tired of the butchered center console setup. I also didn't want to have the knob out of my everyday reach on the dash, so this was just a quick solution that will likely stay for a while. 










Niebur3 said:


> With your old subs IB and your amps now behind the seat, how much trunk room did you gain overall?


I dunno... probably about the depth of the subs themselves. The IB wall was pretty thick. I used thinner birch for the amp wall. I'd guess I gained maybe 5 inches in trunk space back.



thehatedguy said:


> The only down side to a setup like this is if you wanted some extra street bass. But I guess you could have another preset with some added 80 and down.


It's plenty for me. A lot of people at the GTG jammed on it and I didn't have anyone really comment on wishing they had more volume. In fact, I think I have more volume now with the new amp setup so the output above ~30hz is higher than before (which is where the IB 15's really had no problems playing below).


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

As for the whole aspect of competing and where I'd be...

I can honestly say I've never really worried about building a car for competition. In 2013 when I built the Kef pillars we tried to build them within the rules of Modex (which were changed one month later, then changed again the next year as Robert mentioned) just because that was the class I was in. I was cleared for Modex at Freeze Fest and then the next month they changed the rules which put me in Extreme. I didn't whine about that. Because I really didn't care... I base my builds off my goals. (I did complain about them changing rules after the season had started, however). Whatever class they put me in is just gravy. Heck, when I started competing in 2009 I was put in to ModEx+. I haven't been below Modex since then. 

Besides all that, I really have no intentions on competing seriously this year. Nor did I last year. Last year I did one MECA show: Alabama State Finals. I did the IASCA 3x at Finals. I imagine this year will probably be the same or less (depends on my travel/personal vacation). 

When I get a new car some years down the line there will be zero effort placed in to building it for a certain competition class. I'll approach it the same as I've approached my current car: build for what I want and let the chips fall.



It's kind of funny. I met up with my BMX buddies this weekend in Nashville. Guys I haven't seen in 5-8 years (some live nearby, some live in NY). We met up at the metro skatepark to ride and hang out. I haven't ridden in about 6 years and was a bit apprehensive, and was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do anything. Within a couple hours I was doing some of the same old tricks I could do back then. Rather than just being happy with a simple 180 up a set of stairs, I kept pushing myself to do more while I was riding. By the end of the night I was doing stuff I didn't think I could do anymore. It hit me on the way back home that I approach car audio like I do BMX. I don't do it to be better than anyone else. I just want to push my own envelope and progress. It doesn't matter if that progression gets me a podium win or not. My end goal isn't to win a trophy or get magazine coverage: it's to one-up myself. It took me 6 years to realize that and I realized it this weekend. Car audio really is just another outlet for me to evolve, learn, and share with good friends. It's really that simple. 


With all of that said, I'm taking another hiatus from this build log for a bit. So if anyone asks a question and doesn't get an answer, don't get upset with me and consider me as having a "god complex" as has been stated here in the past. I've just decided it's time to take a little break for a bit. If you have any questions about anything, feel free to email or PM and I'll do my best to get back to you when I get a chance.


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> As for the whole aspect of competing and where I'd be...
> 
> I can honestly say I've never really worried about building a car for competition. In 2013 when I built the Kef pillars we tried to build them within the rules of Modex (which were changed one month later, then changed again the next year as Robert mentioned) just because that was the class I was in. I was cleared for Modex at Freeze Fest and then the next month they changed the rules which put me in Extreme. I didn't whine about that. Because I really didn't care... I base my builds off my goals. (I did complain about them changing rules after the season had started, however). Whatever class they put me in is just gravy. Heck, when I started competing in 2009 I was put in to ModEx+. I haven't been below Modex since then.
> 
> Besides all that, I really have no intentions on competing seriously this year. Nor did I last year. Last year I did one MECA show: Alabama State Finals. I did the IASCA 3x at Finals. I imagine this year will probably be the same or less (depends on my travel/personal vacation).
> 
> When I get a new car some years down the line there will be zero effort placed in to building it for a certain competition class. I'll approach it the same as I've approached my current car: build for what I want and let the chips fall.


ive always wondered why people build their car around a class. just seems strange to me. like theyre not even into car audio to enjoy it. good to hear that others build it as they please and just do the competing for fun





ErinH said:


> It's kind of funny. I met up with my BMX buddies this weekend in Nashville. Guys I haven't seen in 5-8 years (some live nearby, some live in NY). We met up at the metro skatepark to ride and hang out. I haven't ridden in about 6 years and was a bit apprehensive, and was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do anything. Within a couple hours I was doing some of the same old tricks I could do back then. Rather than just being happy with a simple 180 up a set of stairs, I kept pushing myself to do more while I was riding. By the end of the night I was doing stuff I didn't think I could do anymore. It hit me on the way back home that I approach car audio like I do BMX. I don't do it to be better than anyone else. I just want to push my own envelope and progress. It doesn't matter if that progression gets me a podium win or not. My end goal isn't to win a trophy or get magazine coverage: it's to one-up myself. It took me 6 years to realize that and I realized it this weekend. Car audio really is just another outlet for me to evolve, learn, and share with good friends. It's really that simple.


now this is the type of update i like to see. looks like bikinpunk aint dead yet.


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Interesting....could be bad news for some.


Once you go up a class you can't come down. That's what I was told and happened to me, so now I'm in Master Class for life.. But by the rules, yes he could compete in that class..


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AccordUno said:


> Once you go up a class you can't come down. That's what I was told and happened to me, so now I'm in Master Class for life.. But by the rules, yes he could compete in that class..


As I understand... take with a grain of salt.... As long as you don't go Master Class... you can rebuild and move to other classes...

Now, once you go Master Class... you are ALWAYS in that class vehicle and install no longer matters...


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow, didn't realize MECA was like that.

But makes sense if you go to the top, you might should stay there...but at the same time a new and install might be different and not need to go to that class.

Anyways, that's another topic for another thread.


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Wow, didn't realize MECA was like that.


Unless I'm mistaken... that's the way it is... I was considering competing in Master Class... but after being explained to me... maybe not...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It's only for master class. Master class is supposed to be for shop cars/company cars etc. Basically people that would have an unfair advantage over the regular competitor. That said, anyone can choose to compete in master, you just can't go down once you do.


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hmm, I don't have an unfair advantage.. But back then when I was competing, I took it as a challenge to move up every year, and top out and then called it a day, 11 years later, I'm back and I'm ok with it. Gives me some breathing room to try some things in my car.. 

Yes, another topic for another day..


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'd only be concerned as someone mentioned to me that you could end up being in a class all by your lonesome with everyone else in another class. That's no fun. Which is something to consider in this planning stage for the pillars. 

On output volume I can definitely confirm this build has no issues. It flat out boogies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mitchyz250f

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Enter the GB25. I was really impressed by the wide bandwidth. The linear excursion supports a relatively low crossover for it's size. It's size means it doesn't beam until pretty high in frequency. And it is pretty linear throughout. .... Ultimately I decided on a bandpass of ~320/LR4 to 6.3khz/LR4. I used this cheap little Dayton ND16 tweeter to carry out the high frequencies... and that little sucker is practically mono to about 16khz.


At 6300Hz the GB25 is beaming pretty hard. Are your crossovers asymmetrical? Can you get into a little more detail?


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Knowing those pillars quite well as I have the same car, the tweets and mids are fairly on axis so it's not so much an issue. Presented probably the best stage I've ever heard in a car. Scary good. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Knowing those pillars quite well as I have the same car, the tweets and mids are fairly on axis so it's not so much an issue. Presented probably the best stage I've ever heard in a car. Scary good.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


How does it compare to other top cars you have heard?


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm running that same ND tweet with the Dayton Classics mids ,what a combo they make.Sorry if I'm thread jacking,carry on!


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Niebur3 said:


> How does it compare to other top cars you have heard?



The stage, if you were on the road, was on the trunk of the car in front of you. Very deep, yet plenty of width. There are four cars I can relate it to I won't name that are best I've heard. This setup being one. This stage is massive and detailed. I played a track on my demo disk with piano by Peter Cincotti and the piano was flawless. Better than a home system I used to play this track on with paradigm reference speakers and Cambridge audio receiver. He's managed to be able to grab the car reflections from the Windows where they're placed and make the reflections serve him. Best I can describe it.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I heard Erin's car on the same day Babs did, and I agree the depth was astonishing. Easily one of the deepest perceived stages I have heard in a car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mitchyz250f

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Knowing those pillars quite well as I have the same car, the tweets and mids are fairly on axis so it's not so much an issue. Presented probably the best stage I've ever heard in a car. Scary good.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


True the direct sound energy from the mid and tweeter would be the same but the indirect or reflected energy would be different. Thats the issue Andy has with going tweeterless. Direct sound energy the same; indirect energy vastly different at high frequencies. Again according to Andy less indirect sound energy in a highly reflective environment (cars) messes with the staging. This can be somewhat compensated with shallow crossovers. 

In any case I am sure Erin had his reasons for crossing at 6300 and I would like to understand them.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Knowing those pillars quite well as I have the same car, the tweets and mids are fairly on axis so it's not so much an issue. Presented probably the best stage I've ever heard in a car. Scary good.
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


+1 !!! I wish I had the time to change the setup in the truck because after hearing Erin's car, I would have done the 8's in the kicks.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for the compliments, guys. It's truly appreciated. 


To answer the question, the 6.3khz crossover was chosen based on a few things:
a) at 6.3khz 60deg is only about 6dB down from the 0deg response, so while the driver is beaming at this point, it's not severe
b) the use of high filter electrical slopes mitigates lobing between the tweeter/mid
c) a higher crossover point for the tweeter adds peace of mind for high volume

I did try 5khz on these mids and didn't find an appreciable benefit. 'C' above was a driving factor here. If I have time (motivation, really) over the summer then I plan to play around a little bit more with the setup.

Hope that helps.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Small update...

Some of the 'Team' JL folks have gotten the new Twk DSP's for beta testing. Though, I can't really give information on the GUI/tuning features, I can give a small rundown (more info can be obtained from the thread here).

These come in two types: analog+digital input version (Twk-88) and a digital only input version (Twk-D8). The latter is the one I'm testing out.

Manville covered some more here:


msmith said:


> The D8 (digital input only) has an MSRP of $379.99
> The 88 (digital and analog inputs) has an MSRP of $429.99
> 
> They both will include the DRC-200 dual-concentric controller and 18 ft. USB cable.




There are 8 outputs on each. 10 bands parametric EQ per channel. Input mixer will make for a lot of variability (differential rear fill being one of them). I can't really provide much more info than that because some features may change. But for now, here's a few pictures of the D8...


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

"differential rear fill" sounds to be a nice feature....!


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQ_TSX said:


> "differential rear fill" sounds to be a nice feature....!




It's a good feature, but not a new one. Helix Pro has had it all along.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> It's a good feature, but not a new one. Helix Pro has had it all along.





SQ_TSX said:


> "differential rear fill" sounds to be a nice feature....!


What's this sorcery "differential rear fill" of which you speak?
Sorry if OT.


Erin, Awesome that you're testing the goods on this thing. I really like JL's approach with modest "get-the-job-done" packaging.. No fancy fins and stuff. Just a processor in a box, and ala carte as to what kind of inputs you want to use. Nice option for just selling what the customer wants.


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> What's this sorcery "differential rear fill" of which you speak?


Input matrix.

When you drop an input to an output, double-click the icon and it will pull up a menu where you can assign % contribution and invert polarity.

So.... you might take Left signal 50%, and then right signal 50% with inverted polarity.


By inverting polarity, the channels are perfectly out-of-phase and any imaging cues that would have been centered in the soundstage will get cancelled.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Input matrix.
> 
> When you drop an input to an output, double-click the icon and it will pull up a menu where you can assign % contribution and invert polarity.
> 
> So.... you might take Left signal 50%, and then right signal 50% with inverted polarity.
> 
> 
> By inverting polarity, the channels are perfectly out-of-phase and any imaging cues that would have been centered in the soundstage will get cancelled.


Whoah I'm knawing on that prospect..









My 8ch Helix will do this as well BTW.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If that McIntosh MC4000M is going into your Civic, I feel sorry for your electrical system. 

The one I had was a current whore. Good thing you have that Cascade/Iota power supply at hand.  Beautiful amp, tho'!

Did you get this one from MACS? If not and you haven't done it already, I'd give this amp a thorough checkup before using or installing it. These guys are quite old at this point. 

Common problems are: cooling fans often go bad (the variable speed fans can be fairly noisy when they speed up as well...make sure the amp is mounted where it can breathe well), resistors blow (usually because of other problem components), and IF this one uses thermal paste under the power transistors, it is probably dry & "crusty" and needs to be replaced (but IIRC the transistors were usually "clamped" directly to the aluminum rail with the spring tabs), older capacitors may leak and/or bulge and need to be replaced, and the Bourne Potentiometers may be worn (saw some on eBay recently tho').

But yeah, I'm in to see this installed in the Civic! It seems like the perfect amp for your setup right now...just one large, beautiful amp to keep the wiring, mounting, and install simple and clean-looking. :thumbsup:

I also like what you are doing with the lighting on the VU Meters as well, tho I do favor the older/classic McIntosh blue.  But that's a good tip on grinding down the LED lens/tip.

You can also add a layer of thin sheet photographic lighting diffusion gel to diffuse the beam(s). I would probably go with Quarter or Half "White Diffusion" or Quarter or Half "Soft Frost" from Lee Filters. If that's too heavy or thick try "Opal Frost" in single or multiple layers. All are available from B&H Photo or Amazon for about $7-8 per 21"x24" sheet. Rosco & Gamma brands make equivalents. Or you could just go with the old school favorite...plain old vinyl Shower Curtain.  A drop of CA gel glue on the tip of the LED sprinkled with baking soda may do the trick as well.

I'm in to see your progress on the LT kick enclosures as well. Keep pushing the limits!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ you have ESP!!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

bbfoto mentioned it above but because I know no one pays attention to words when they're posted, I'll leave this here now. Then I'll explain.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So I haven't yet given the "why". That will be later. But for now, I'll add some more pics/ideas...

This amp is beautiful (at least to me). However, the meter panels are rather dull. The stock board for each meter has four bulbs. You can see those in the attached picture. These are incadescent, 6.2v bulbs according to the service manual. 













I had some blue LEDs (3.2mm from Oznium) on hand and experimented a bit. 













I played around with using the blue LEDs in lieu of the bulbs a bit and there's no doubt the LEDs look *much* better. 
Below are some comparisons between the stock (duller) vs the LEDs (much richer blue). The LED pictures are shown with only (2) LEDs: one at each end of the board as opposed to the (4) bulbs the OEM setup uses. 









































So, yea, this is going to happen for sure. Though, I'll probably buy the diffused LEDs. The standard LEDs have a beam of light that doesn't scatter. I had emailed MACS (from DIYMA) asking if he knew if anybody had done any LED upgrades on the amp and he sent me this link where someone has already done the mod (link). In that guy's finished picture you can see the how the LEDs' beams are focused forward. I want to avoid that. Plus, the OEM incadescent bulbs are diffuse in nature, so a diffuse LED makes more sense here. 

Of course some have already said they prefer the teal OEM color but I don't. In person it just doesn't *pop* like the blue does (unfortunately pictures don't really do it justice). Also, it's worth mentioning that Mcintosh offers LED kits for some of their amps meters. I ordered a few different LED types/colors of blue and white so I'll play with those a bit before making a final decision. The amp will rarely be seen so this really is all just for my own satisfaction anyway. 

But, I don't trust myself with soldering. Not on something like this. As simple as it is I'd feel better having someone with experience soldering tons board doing this for me. Luckily my buddy Kevin is up to the task and he's coming over next weekend anyway. So, he said he could do it for me. Thanks, Kev!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subwoofery said:


> You haven't been clear, or I missed it but why the change?
> 
> Kelvin


One word that sums up the reason for the change: Nostalgia.


I think you guys who have met me know I'm an 80's music nut. Early 90's as well... but mostly 80's. The reason is because I was born in '82 so naturally that's what I grew up listening to on the radio. My love for music is tied to nostalgia. When I hear a song, it takes me back to a memory associated with that song. Everything from jamming to Lionel Richie in the car with my mom to riding my bike down my street listening to the same 2 tracks on my Huey Lewis & The News Pocket Rocker Tape.... "It's Hip To Be Square"... (please, tell me you guys my age remember those!?). Those are vivid memories. Such fun times. So my love for music is really linked closely to memories. 

Pocket Rockers!!!!!






















The Mcintosh brand is like that for me as well. When I was a kiddo my pops used to take me to this stereo shop to kill time when we'd go visit family for Christmas and he would comment on the Mcintosh stuff being so well built and nice. When I got started in the SQ side of car audio I'd see guys posting their Mcintosh stuff and it brought some of those memories back. At one point in 2008, IIRC, I bought a mcintosh mx4000+mda4000 headunit/dac combo to capture some of that nostalgia but it really didn't fit my needs so I let it go. 

We all have an item or two that we have wanted for some time but for whatever reason (budget, space, etc) aren't able to run it. The MC4000M has long been that for me. I really wanted the amp back then, but it was just something too hard to justify in cost and install; remember for years I had amps under the seat. When I switched things up this year and went for the amps on the rear wall and put all the speakers up front, it opened the door for me to use this amp. It wasn't intentionally done that way. Fast forward to a few weeks ago and I had the wild hair to see if I could swing the big Mc amp. I found one used in quite excellent condition, put my hand over my eyes, turned away, and pulled the trigger. 

It's kind of funny that Mcintosh's tagline is "For Music With Emotion". I never really gave it much thought, but really that's what it's about to me. It's about that emotional connection that I get from hearing a particular song. 


The p99 change came pretty much due to the amp. I really and truly had no intentions on changing anything in the car ... until I got the amp. I liked the idea of 'simplicity' in using an older style headunit like the Mcintosh mx5000 or the like. I started looking at getting a Mc headunit, but I've owned a few of them and as sweet as they are, it's just not for me. However, I liked the idea of that kind of simplicity. I got to thinking that it would be cool to have a mix of 'old school' meets 'new school' type install. A mix of the two... incorporate some newer gear with older gear to give the car something different but something I know I like. Since I'd already owned the p99 five times before, I knew it fit the bill. Very nice looking headunit with the DSP I need built in. Sure it doesn't have P-EQ or variable phase or fully customizable crossover points but I know I don't need those features with this install. I literally had 5 bands of EQ on my entire system when I went to the NC meet and it sounded better than it has before. So I knew I didn't *need* more than what the P99 provides. Plus, I just plain like the p99 (I know others don't, that's fine). That was that. 



I've spent the last couple years or so between having a working system and not having a working system for one reason or another. There's always been something in the back of my head that has made me want to try new things. Then I start down that path but ultimately wind back up where I left off. So, I genuinely hope that what's coming up will be the last go round. The Mc amp is my "unicorn" piece which should help cement the install. New things are on the horizon besides just the amp and headunit change, but I haven't decided just what yet. I don't plan on starting the install until the Fall when things cool down and I've still got some more testing of ideas to do. But once I get started, I'll post what I do.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

that's pretty much it (for now).


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I love it sir.... please bring that big bad boy to the Vinny.... for all us old school guys to lust over. .....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Oddly, I prefer the bulb look. Maybe it's because it's what I'm used to. It does seem a bit easier to read than the LEDs as well. 

Or maybe I'm just jealous because that amp is badass and I wish I had one. lol


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> ^ you have ESP!!!!


Haha. I wish that were true! I'd be a billionaire fo sho'. 

But I guess that I must at least be a halfway decent "persuader" or motivator, haha...thanks for the update!  

:thumbsup:

I think that the fine detail and pristine clarity of the P99 as your source will be a perfect match for the McIntosh. IMO&E the Mc seems to ever so slightly smooth out any rough edges, but definitely in a very good way, with power and authority. I think it's gonna sound and look [email protected]! I wish that my line of work had me travelling out your way so I could see & hear it!

I am slightly bummed that you aren't going to do a proper rear fill setup, but from what others have said so far, it doesn't seem like your system and tune needs it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



quality_sound said:


> Oddly, I prefer the bulb look. Maybe it's because it's what I'm used to. It does seem a bit easier to read than the LEDs as well.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just jealous because that amp is badass and I wish I had one. lol


The pictures make the blue look washed out. I took them with my iPhone. In person it's much better.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> I am slightly bummed that you aren't going to do a proper rear fill setup, but from what others have said so far, it doesn't seem like your system and tune needs it.


I'll still be using rear fill. JL xd400/4v2 and JL D8 DSP will be used for that. The JL gives me additional TA off the headunit's output. I plan to use the headunit to control 3 channels and the 4th channel will be sent to JL D8. I plan to run active rear fill off that. 

But I have to ask... why would you be bummed if I weren't? Lol


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQ_TSX said:


> I love it sir.... please bring that big bad boy to the Vinny.... for all us old school guys to lust over. .....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I might do that. I'll probably be driving my wife's car since my dash will be out. But I'll bring it along if I feel up to (I'm lazy, and that thing is heavy!, lol)


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

A couple things I'm leaving out...

First, thanks to MACS for answering some questions I had before and after I bought this amp. It's very much appreciated. 

Second, for those who don't know the MC4000M is a 6-channel amp. It's rated for 100x4 + 300x2 at 4 ohm (all channels loaded, which is great to know and only a few companies provide this info. JL is another one that specs their multi channel amps' output with all channels loaded). 

Mcintosh specs the amp's power at 14.4v input I assume because that was "industry standard" back then, but the manual says:


> ...therefore in keeping with the mcintosh philosophy of conservative specifications and generous safe operating margins, we have designed our amplifiers to maintain rated power over a range of supply voltage levels as low as 12 volts and as high as 18 volts.


I found where a guy tested it himself and verified the above. 
The amp also has the standard Mcintosh headroom feature built in. This one offers 1.3dB headroom. Which equates to roughly 140x4 + 400x2 @4 ohms. 

Amp efficiency was just a notch above 50%. Nothing like the JL Class D's I had. I believe the XDs at 14.4v input were around 90-something% efficient. So big difference. Of course, when you factor in total amp power for the Mc at 1kw and you consider I was running (2) 1kw XD amps, you realize it's close to a wash with respect to the load on my electrical system. Also, when I do demos at meets or comps I'm plugged in to wall power. And the big ol' XS Power battery I have helps a lot too. 

Plus, there are some things I'm doing to boost the efficiency of my system a little bit to help account for that. But that's part of the "I've got testing to do" comment I made earlier. Still a ways to go. Too dang hot out to be messing with this stuff right now so I'm working in limited spurts. (TWSS!!!!!) Haha.


----------



## quality_sound

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> The pictures make the blue look washed out. I took them with my iPhone. In person it's much better.




Ooooh, gotcha. I'm gonna have to figure out how to get to see it in person sometime. I can see why you sold the Alpine. That and the 99 is a solid combo. A 7909 feeding a Mac powering Soundstream Exacts was one of the best combos I've ever heard. Sometimes I get really upset that Donna sold the company and it went to ****. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Saweeeet amplifier you got yourself right there my friend. Congrats! I get the nostalgia thing for sure. I love the old Arc Audio cxlr amplifiers from years back as I loved reading about them in the car audio magazine features and just how cool they looked. Same with the old Diamond Audio D7 amps.

I'm sure this combo will sound (and look) killer in your car and look forward to the next time we meet up.

I'll hopefully have a few *small* changes done by then in mine too 



.


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

nice!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It's funny. When I got the amp unpacked and I was benching it my wife could tell how excited I was so she told me to take a picture with it (and I did). Since there are pics of me in GTG threads floating around here already... Here it is, in all it's cheesy glory. 







That smile is the real deal. Needless to say, I was pumped when I got it. Still am. If I could afford not to use it, I'd take it to work with me and frame it. LOL


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> It's funny. When I got the amp unpacked and I was benching it my wife could tell how excited I was so she told me to take a picture with it (and I did). Since there are pics of me in GTG threads floating around here already... Here it is, in all it's cheesy glory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That smile is the real deal. Needless to say, I was pumped when I got it. Still am. If I could afford not to use it, I'd take it to work with me and frame it. LOL



Awesome :laugh:


I'd do the same with my new amps but I don't think I'm man enough to lift all 3 at once!:blush:


----------



## cmusic

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I remember when that amp came out. I wanted it so bad but could not afford it. I remember a guy in a Chrysler sedan used it as his only amp to win his novice class at the IASCA finals in 1997 or 1998.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats on the new baby (awesome photo of you and the Mc)! That's a happy boy right thar! You do, however, need to ease up on the use of that orangey self-tanning lotion! 



ErinH said:


> I'll still be using rear fill. JL xd400/4v2 and JL D8 DSP will be used for that. The JL gives me additional TA off the headunit's output. I plan to use the headunit to control 3 channels and the 4th channel will be sent to JL D8. I plan to run active rear fill off that.
> 
> But I have to ask... why would you be bummed if I weren't? Lol


Whew! Okay, now I feel much better...relieved, in fact!  A system that does not include "rear fill" is just NOT acceptable!

j/k! 

Yeah, I admit, I guess that was a bit of a strange statement to make. :blush:

But seriously, It's cool that you will still be incorporating and taking advantage of the JL D8 and its capabilities. Thinking of picking one up myself...even at the MSRP price it's a steal when you look at its features and flexibility. My buddies were always perplexed as to why I needed to run Two of the old Sony XDP-4000X processors in one of my installs back in the day, since one of them was obviously capable of running all of the "normal" channels that I needed (2-way front + sub + rear fill...though I also had some DIY passive X/O's tucked away for the rears). I just told them that the Sony DSPs were really ****ty units...don't buy one!...because they were always failing, hence the need for the extra unit for "instantaneous backup".  In reality, I needed it primarily to provide that extra delay on the rears.

Will you still incorporate the JL HD-RLC knob in your door's arm rest to control just the rear fill level?

Are you pulling the dash in order to extend the TL enclosures for the C10 mid-bass/subs up in there, or?


----------



## seafish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Conrgratulaitons....I had NO idea those amps were that big. Curious...about how much does it weigh??


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

_"When I hear a song, it takes me back to a memory associated with that song."_

I LOVE this comment, the same for me and as a old school drummer, it takes me back to trying to learn the song. My memory has been very up & down over the last couple years, but for now it's better than ever. Congrats on the new toys Erin, insane to think that car of yours could get even better!


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Let's go surfing Erin. Congratulations buddy.

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Why is the dash out?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



thehatedguy said:


> Why is the dash out?


Going to re-do the woofers. Trying to explore what's back there to see if I can build up the firewall on the driver's side instead of out in to the floor like I have now. 

And, well, you know... Stuff.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Werd...Getting Steve Cook on us.


----------



## danno14

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> It's funny. When I got the amp unpacked and I was benching it my wife could tell how excited I was so she told me to take a picture with it (and I did). Since there are pics of me in GTG threads floating around here already... Here it is, in all it's cheesy glory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That smile is the real deal. Needless to say, I was pumped when I got it. Still am. If I could afford not to use it, I'd take it to work with me and frame it. LOL


Nice!
Congrats man!!


----------



## diy.phil

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

WHOA!! You need a city permit to use that amp!!!
(Nice!!)


----------



## Blu

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Congrats Erin - that's an absolutely beautiful amplifier!

Always a great feeling to be able to capture ones personal "Unicorn".
Look forward to seeing the build log.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks for the "congrats", fellas. I appreciate the sending of good vibes. A lot of times people are quick to be negative for one reason or another. So it's nice to not see that trend here. 




seafish said:


> Conrgratulaitons....I had NO idea those amps were that big. Curious...about how much does it weigh??


I think about 40 pounds, iirc.





bbfoto said:


> Will you still incorporate the JL HD-RLC knob in your door's arm rest to control just the rear fill level?
> 
> Are you pulling the dash in order to extend the TL enclosures for the C10 mid-bass/subs up in there, or?


No, I don't plan to keep the HD-RLC anymore. It would just be something else 'in the way' and wouldn't really serve a purpose. I can use the p99's output to control that level anyway. 


Yea, I'm pulling the dash to see what my options are for the up front subs. I really don't like the driver's side kick one. It was fine... but it got old. Back to the drawing board.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I think about 40 pounds, iirc.


Holy big whopper amp batman! 



ErinH said:


> Yea, I'm pulling the dash to see what my options are for the up front subs. I really don't like the driver's side kick one. It was fine... but it got old. Back to the drawing board.


Dang skippy! Don't know that I've seen a whole dash undone in our Civics, beyond just popping the front panels to get the radio out and the glove box.


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

It's very pretty timeless amp! Can't wait to see it in the car.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

When I decided to go with the P99 I wanted something to make it look a bit different than having a pocket underneath in the double-din space. I initially looked at using the Mcintosh MPM4000 meters to give it that "old school meets new school" look but I found a picture where someone had done that and it didn't look good (to me). 

I then remembered the Black (they do make silver) Denon DSV-1 meters my buddy John P had with his old denford deck and I went searching. I found a picture where someone had mated that to the DEH-P01 (JDM version of the P99) and from what I could tell it looked pretty good but the picture wasn't great. I found one on eBay BNIB for a pretty decent price and figured I'd give it a shot. I wasn't sure how it would look in person due to the Denon meters having the grainy looking faceplate vs the P99 having a glass face. Luckily it worked out great! Pictures don't really do this justice. Seeing in person really allows you to see just how cool the pairing looks (assuming you're in to that sort of thing to begin with).


----------



## Installer Josh

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

There is nothing wrong with that. Big thumbs up from me


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

that looks awesome


----------



## seafish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

:thumbsup: Loving the look of the blend of analog face with the digital face.


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Me likey..... !!!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That's just sick!! I like it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

at this point, I'm just gonna build a garage system and never install anything. LOL.


----------



## whoever

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

looks great Erin!


----------



## wheelieking71

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> at this point, I'm just gonna build a garage system and never install anything. LOL.


I have been doing this for years!!! LOL :biggrinflip:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Subwoofery asked me on CAJ about changing the colors of the p99 to match the Denon meters. To which I replied that you can. 

Figure I'd mention it here in case anyone else wants to do the same.


The buttons/knobs lighting on the P99 can be changed. The OLED display colors, however, cannot. That said, you can buy some of the color filters and place them inside the headunit's faceplate between the display and the glass to change the color to what you want. I did this myself for a bit and others have done it before me. It's pretty popular with the BMW crowd. Here's a thread that talks about it:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sion/130226-dex-p99rs-oled-display-color.html



But, here's what I did last night. I used the default 'Amber' color and also a custom color to nearly match the Denon piece. I took these with my phone so it doesn't have great quality, but in person it looks pretty cool to me. 



















And here's a picture with my dash trim ring around the two pieces. I gotta say that when I pass this in the garage each day I pause and stare at the combo a bit. It looks sweet!




Also, FWIW, the Denon piece can be taken apart and you can use different lighting colors. But I've seen pictures of it where others have done it and it never looked good to me.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks killer Erin! My head unit (DCT-100 Black) must have been built the same year as your meters since everything from the box, logo and brushed black face look identical!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I know, right?! Definitely looking forward to getting it in the dash. I think the meters will look really cool against the OEM dash champagne color.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Those of you with the p99, you know how annoying the 'beep' can be... and there's no way to turn it off. Well, eff that noise! Beep be gone!!!

Before:






After:







(I'm using the remote, thus the clack noise.)


If you guys want, I can provide a little "how to". I took some pictures along the way with my phone just in case someone else wanted to do this as well.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

No, you can't. Unless there's some secret that many of us don't know about. I'm all ears... I'm sure many others would like to know as well. There's a few threads around here with people complaining about it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

seriously... how? I know there's the 'hidden' menu while the unit is powered off. But that beep is chimes, iirc. There's a lot of people here who have complained about it. So if there's a way that's in the menu, I know I'm not the only one who would benefit from knowing.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

If it's like the P9 combo I had & the ODR combo, you could turn the beeps off...I turned mine off.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I know that menu. Lol. How do you think I changed he colors in the picture above? You can't turn the beep off. You can turn the warning beep off. But not the beeps that are throughout. If I'm wrong that's great. But I'm going off numerous threads where people have complained about it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...discussion/147865-dex-p99rs-disable-beep.html

Start on post 95:
https://www.talkstuff.net/ipb/index.php/topic/378719-pioneer-p99rs-a-future-classic/page-5


Start with post 3:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...parisons/161427-pioneer-p9-vs-p99.html#/enter


----------



## WhereAmEye?

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Never mind...you already knew that


----------



## knever3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Policy of Truth

Gotta love Depeche Mode!!!

Their song Personal Jesus in a c4 corvette gave me the chills and I have liked their band ever since. Yeah sure it was Bose, but it sounded fantastic at the auto show outdoors.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



knever3 said:


> Policy of Truth
> 
> Gotta love Depeche Mode!!!
> 
> Their song Personal Jesus in a c4 corvette gave me the chills and I have liked their band ever since. Yeah sure it was Bose, but it sounded fantastic at the auto show outdoors.


I know, man. It was kind of like EDM before there was EDM. lol

They have some GREAT songs that I use for my various demo discs. Seems like I wind up putting at least one of their songs on each of my discs.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

For those interested, I posted a tutorial on removing the piezo 'beeper' from the P99 here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...tentially-other-p01-80prs-beeper-removal.html


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've talked to some buddies about my real love/hate relationship with this hobby. How it keeps me awake at night, thinking of all the things I want to try. I've considered going back to the old setup I had in 2010 using the Scan 12m ... this time I can do a bit better install wise and tuck it back in the corner a bit more and get it out of the line of sight more than before. I'm looking at the Illusion C3CX based on Gary's happiness and an email urging me to try them. 

_Then_ there's the _other_ side of the equation...
I've also been considering off and on for the past year to go with a HE setup. I'm not a fan of car horn setups; they just don't do what I want out of a car. I recently found a good deal on eBay for some Radian 508/2BC 8" coaxials which are pretty much the same as the 5208c drivers so I ordered them. The idea is to put them in the kicks. THIS IS NOT A CERTAINTY, though. It's just an idea I'm piddling with. The fact of the matter is a good pro-audio coax has it's own inherent issues with design... the cheaper ones simply suck. The more expensive ones don't, but they're more expensive... for a reason. On top of that, they're deep because they not only contain the typical 8" woofer stuff like the motor and suspension but they add on a compression driver to the back of the woofer motor. That adds at least another inch of depth in most cases. So, I'll be completely honest and say the odds of me actually following through with this kind of setup is slim to none. They would have to go in the kicks and they would take up more real estate than I think I can give. Just to put it in perspective, the 10" Illusion C10's I have now are roughly 3" deep. These Radians are about 5" deep. 

but, but but but buuuuuut BUT!!!!! They do get loud. The sensitivity is rated at about 95dB @ 1w/1m. And they do sound good doing it. Crossover point/slope is important with these things to match the polar (as the woofer begins to beam, the compression driver is essentially omnidirectional). Then there's the aspect of the 'moving waveguide'. The woofer is the waveguide for the CD and as the woofer moves, that can do things to the higher frequencies. but of course, if you limit excursion you severely limit that kind of distortion. I learned this with my Kef setup a few years back. 

This SPL level was taken at about 3 feet away from the driver and it wasn't even breaking a sweat. That's one driver... 95dB... that's pretty dang loud. IIIIIIIF I were to find some way to install these where they didn't limit leg room AND they sounded comparable to my previous setups as far as sound quality goes THEN I might do it. And I'd add a sub back in the back again. But like I said, odds are this isn't going to happen. There's really not much reason for me to post this other than to show that I gave it a shot. These drivers are kind of my 'jumping off' point for the whole 8" coax in the kicks idea. I mean, knowing is half the battle, right?  

I really would like to try BMS' 8CN552 driver but they're about $350/each. That driver is about 4.17" deep, which would shave about 3/4" off depth compared to this Radian. And BMS makes some dang fine drivers. If I can find a set at the right price, I'll likely give those a shot.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

OH, and here's a video of the P99 (beepless!) and the Denon DSV-1 meters in action...


----------



## caraudiopimps

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I know, man. It was kind of like EDM before there was EDM. lol
> 
> They have some GREAT songs that I use for my various demo discs. Seems like I wind up putting at least one of their songs on each of my discs.


God I hate the term EDM. Blanket term developed by people who have no appreciation for the artist's who put in tons of work to break away from the norm.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Dude. It was a joke.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Been wanting the radians myself.


----------



## caraudiopimps

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Dude. It was a joke.


Oh no judgement, just my pet peeve haha


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm anxious to see where this leads


----------



## subterFUSE

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



caraudiopimps said:


> God I hate the term EDM. Blanket term developed by people who have no appreciation for the artist's who put in tons of work to break away from the norm.




Dude, I am so proud to see someone else who gets it!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## caraudiopimps

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subterFUSE said:


> Dude, I am so proud to see someone else who gets it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Likewise! "EDM" and the pop culture now surrounding electronica, has all but destroyed many great genres and artists, in favor of over compressed, low dynamic range, non musical trash. All the "best" (richest) artists, are carbon copies of one another. I could play the dance top 40, and 39 of the tracks will have the same chord progression, drumline, and synths. And I'm getting real, real sick of having to wade through hundreds of hours of half assed, unmastered 'music' with low dynamic range, just to find a semi original song I like. Trap, in particular has taken things to a new low, it's been played in the dirty south forever under a different moniker, and some prick decided to toss some Dutch synth stabs over it and call it a genre.


----------



## DLO13

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You should change the LEDs on the Denon to white.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Re: Kicks


When I first got these woofers I considered (briefly) running them IB, through the 4" hole already cut in the firewall from the previous builds. But two things kept me from doing that: 1) I worried about water damage to the speakers and they're not cheap, 2) I didn't think a 4" hole would be large enough to not impede the woofer. Therefore, I went through with building the enclosures. As you guys know, I've since realized that was a bad idea, at least on the driver's side due to the amount of footspace it consumed. The tactile bothered me, even though some didn't even notice it in demos. And the floor height was OK for daily drives but for long drives it became cramped. 

I pulled the dash out, looked around, and decided that my wild dream of building the enclosure up the firewall (as opposed to out on the floor like it is) wasn't going to be feasible without having the car down for a while... and I don't have the luxury of having a backup car to drive while it's down. 

This weekend I got frustrated with the internal dilemma of how I was going to pull the sealed enclosure off and just said "screw it, I'll vent it out the car and deal with it getting weathered". I mean, it's the big brother of the c6 and c8 which are both made for car door environments so this is no different. 

Of course, I didn't know if it would work well vented outside the car so I decided to do some testing to see just if the 4" hole in the firewall would indeed be large enough for the woofer's Qt(c) to not be changed significantly. The easiest way to test this was to pull the enclosure out of the car, cut the 4" hole out of the back of it (where it would mate up to the existing 4" hole in the firewall), and do an impedance sweep and compare the *Qts (free-air Q of the woofer itself)* vs *Qtc (enclosure+woofer Q)*. If the Qtc looked much different from the Qts then I'd know it won't work. 


First I swept the sub with my Dayton DATS to get the impedance curve for determining the Qts.
Next I pulled the enclosure from the car. I weighed it out of curiosity... 26 lbs. That's pretty darn heavy for mostly fiberglass enclosure. 
I filled the inside of the enclosure with foam to make sure the woofer would be sealed off from the 'extension' part of the enclosure. 
Then I cut out the 4" hole from the enclosure's backside. 
Then I mounted the C10 in the enclosure and swept the driver again to get the Qtc. 



Here's a few pictures:

4" hole cut.




Mounted for testing.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

*So now, the real important stuff...*

*Impedance comparison:*




*Impedance Analysis:*
The free-air impedance is in green. 
The in-enclosure impedance is in orange.
The free-air sweep yielded a Qts of 0.45. The in-enclosure sweep yielded a Qtc of 0.46. So, the difference is negligible. By Qts alone, the 4" hole is indeed large enough to not impede the woofer's motion in any way and thus would have enough 'volume' behind it to be considered IB. Sweet!



_But that's not all that matters_... the actual impedance 'curve' needs to be evaluated.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

picking up where I left above, let's take this forward.

So, going a step further, I wanted to make sure there were no resonances that showed up in the impedance curve because when that happens, you can guarantee it will show up in an FR sweep and possibly increase distortion at this spot. These kind of resonances can be due to the driver design itself (i.e.; spider resonance, surround resonance, etc) or the driver+enclosure. Sometimes the result is difference but you can nearly always draw a correlation between FR/Distortion issues and a simple impedance sweep. 

*Let's look at an example of how to read an impedance sweep for things other than basic T/S:* 
Here's a link to the 5" 4 ohm SB Satori I measured last year:
http://medleysmusings.com/mw13p-4/

If you go to the impedance picture you'll see a 'blip' at ~ 1.4khz. If you then look at the Harmonic Distortion plots you'll see the problem due to the resonance: 
1) The fundamental response has a dip at resonance about 5dB.
2) The HD as I increased the output from 90, 96 and up to 102dB (at 1m distance) increases. 

Here's some help with the illustration:





The 1.4khz blip is something to consider in your design since that's right where the mid would be playing. Whether or not this is of consequence is up to the designer of the speaker. Personally, the distortion increase never stood out to me.​


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So, having said all of that, let's look again at the impedance sweep of the C10+enclosure and focus on any anomalies we see...

If you look at about 270hz you'll see the green line (free-air) is practically linear. However, the orange has a small bump that adds about 0.5 ohms vs the green line, highlighted in the picture below. This is a sign of resonance. We know now that this isn't ideal and _can _cause problems. I would have to measure the driver+enclosure together outside of the car to determine the impact. However, the bump isn't large and where it occurs is above my desired crossover point. So, it's of lessened consequence to me. 





All of that said, it looks like I'm good to go.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Next up, I went to harbor freight, bought the $29 (on sale) sawzall and chopped off the enclosure's extension. 





Then I did a test fit in the car to make sure it still fit well and see what my foot clearance was:







She fits!!!!! And it's great having that leg room back. The C10 is actually about an inch further back than the JL 8 was so I now have more foot room.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Now I just needed to foam up where I had cut the extension off and sand it down before putting it in the car and wrapping the whole thing in carpet. I chose to do foam because it's incredibly easy and quick. Sure beats adding more fiberglass for no reason.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I couldn't resist the urge to test the woofer out in the enclosure and since I still have my JL amps installed (the Mc won't be installed for a bit), I took my bench power supply, ran an extension cord to the car and hooked up my P99... in the bask seat! LOL

I ran some RCAs to the amps, then put in some rough crossover settings and began to beat on the system a bit. The result? Awesomeness! The c10 ran IB is a thing of beauty. It sounds as good or better than when I had it sealed and the best part is... no crazy tactile at my feet anymore! 





















This just cut out a LOT of time and worry from the install. And it sounds awesome. Probably should have just done this from the beginning but oh well. 

I'm going to sweep the passenger side enclosure again and see what the Qtc is. If it's close to the same then I'm going to leave it as is. No reason to change it. But if the Qtc is higher than, say, 0.55, I'll run it IB as well.


----------



## _booo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hi Erin, can i ask you a question, is the hole in the enclosure goes out of the car?
I mean there is a hole so you can see the wheel? or this is only in the enclosure and the air actually moves inside the car? 
in case there is no hole in the car and only in the enclosure, how would this effect the performance?

Thanks.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The hole is through the car's firewall.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> The hole is through the car's firewall.


Knew you had a love/hate relationship with that thing, it sounded sooooo good though! Really happy it didn't change (possibly helped) going to the new setup. I hope I'll get a chance to hear this car again with the Mac & new sub setup! Hard to think it could get better....


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Interesting change. I've often looked at the specs of the Carbon subs and thought they would actually lend themselves fairly well to an IB install. Particularly the XL drivers. Nice to see someone actually try it and achieve success.


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow, you are really starting to make some progress on this new update. Its amazing how you figured out to vent the C10s and probably will benefit the overall sound.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



1FinalInstall said:


> Knew you had a love/hate relationship with that thing, it sounded sooooo good though! Really happy it didn't change (possibly helped) going to the new setup. I hope I'll get a chance to hear this car again with the Mac & new sub setup! Hard to think it could get better....


Well, if I had 1/2 of your fabrication skills I'd be much better off. 




rton20s said:


> Interesting change. I've often looked at the specs of the Carbon subs and thought they would actually lend themselves fairly well to an IB install. Particularly the XL drivers. Nice to see someone actually try it and achieve success.


Yea, that's the thing. I never worried that they wouldn't perform well in an IB config. Fs is low, Qts is about where I want it... I may need to use a shallow and low HPF to keep them protected just in case, but that's fine given the tradeoff. It was just the fact that they'd be exposed to the elements so I wanted to avoid it. But heck... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I suppose. 




Black Rain said:


> Wow, you are really starting to make some progress on this new update.


haha. Well, I wouldn't go that far. I'm snail pacing it. It's hot outside!


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'd suggest getting them both run IB if you're going to do the driver's side. May as well get that space back and keep the kicks looking as compact as possible, and reduce the weight. Since it's not a big deal to do, of course 

Glad to see the Qts remained nearly identical. I've been wanting to test enclosure volume the same way, but for some reason my new DATS v2 is not playing nice with the laptop.


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## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Also happy fo ryou in that this means that subs are not needed and you can simply rock that MAC amp and be good to go. May not need anything more than the P99 either...depending on how much eq and phase control you want/need and how the vehicle is affecting the response of your driver locations.

Fun stuff brother!


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## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> *I'd suggest getting them both run IB if you're going to do the driver's side. May as well get that space back and keep the kicks looking as compact as possible, and reduce the weight. Since it's not a big deal to do, of course *
> 
> Glad to see the Qts remained nearly identical. I've been wanting to test enclosure volume the same way, but for some reason my new DATS v2 is not playing nice with the laptop.


x2, the symmetry will also help with the unavoidable psychoacoustics.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I love this build. This is what I always dreamed of hearing. I think I've referenced it a few times but never had the gumption, time, or money to do it myself.

One day I'll have find a way to hear it!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, this latest update to your build log is KICK @SS, mate! 

Sux that you had to go to all of the trouble to pull the dash. But no pain, no gain, and at least now you know everything that's back there...and maybe you were able to do a bit more sound deadening/treatment up in there as well?

Anyway, it looks like It's gonna be awesome and I'm sure that your happy about regaining some foot space, especially since it's your DD.

And I always appreciate you posting your design thoughts/goals and methodology with every update.

Keep on keeping on...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Also happy fo ryou in that this means that subs are not needed and you can simply rock that MAC amp and be good to go. May not need anything more than the P99 either...depending on how much eq and phase control you want/need and how the vehicle is affecting the response of your driver locations.
> 
> Fun stuff brother!


I looked over my EQ and crossover settings to make sure I'd be able to essentially 'copy' the same tune over from the Helix to the P99. Based on how I had the front stage before, the p99's capabilities will be more than adequate. Indeed, it will be nice to have the simplicity of the P99 straight to the Mc. Something about that makes me feel all cuddly inside. lol




t3sn4f2 said:


> x2, the symmetry will also help with the unavoidable psychoacoustics.


For sure. 
It won't be a priority but it will be done at some point. 




I800C0LLECT said:


> I love this build. This is what I always dreamed of hearing. I think I've referenced it a few times but never had the gumption, time, or money to do it myself.
> 
> One day I'll have find a way to hear it!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the kind words. Seems this build is always an evolution. I plan for that to end with this build. So maybe one day I'll get to hear it as well. LOL.
After I finish this build up... whenever that happens to be ... I plan to start focusing more on DIY home audio stuff. I've had a lot of builds I've wanted to do over the years that I never complete because I wind up getting sucked in to the car audio trap. 





bbfoto said:


> Erin, this latest update to your build log is KICK @SS, mate!
> 
> Sux that you had to go to all of the trouble to pull the dash. But no pain, no gain, and at least now you know everything that's back there...and maybe you were able to do a bit more sound deadening/treatment up in there as well?
> 
> Anyway, it looks like It's gonna be awesome and I'm sure that your happy about regaining some foot space, especially since it's your DD.
> 
> And I always appreciate you posting your design thoughts/goals and methodology with every update.
> 
> Keep on keeping on...



Haha. Thanks, man!

Actually, the civic has so much absorption on the firewall I didn't see the need to pull it all off to treat it differently. 

And yea, the footspace is nice for sure. Kind of crazy to get a 10" up there and have more space than I did when it was factory. I have as much or more footroom with the 10" in my kick as I do in my wife's 2013 accord sedan. 

Thanks for the appreciation of the data. I try to be as explanative as I can when I talk about the technical reasons for doing X or Y so maybe other folks can apply some of the knowledge toward their own builds. I'm not sure how many take the time to read it but if nothing else it helps me remember why I did what I did.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

We have a customer that had that mc amp. He has it in a Lincoln (old one) 
A bunch of morel drivers and stuff. 

The doods car sounds kinda crappy ( he the dood with the Sony I was tellin you about) 
He had a drz in there before and was too "complicated "

Regardless, that amp... Oh lala gains all the way down has some serious balls . 
He brought is some Eq module that plugs in middle of it (a waste) but still for how old that thing is . Kind a wired that two of the 6ch have more power than the other 4. But useful to say the least. 

Super jealous tho. Can't wait to see it in there . What a step up from the HD amps . 
I use a mix of HD amps and a class ab focal. But if I could ever get my hands on one of those. Weren't there only like 400 of them made or something?


----------



## mitchyz250f

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin a while back you said you were surprised by the performance of tweeters when placed in the dash/windshield/pillar corner. Why didn't you keep the tweeters there?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Honestly, it's because I got sick of seeing them. That's why I changed the whole setup to what I have now.

Plus, nothing beats having the mid and tweeter right next to each other. this hobby is all about compromises. but luckily, the gb25 makes those compromises much easier to live with. actually, I can almost say I don't feel I compromised anything thanks to the small size vs bandwidth of the gb25. frankly, the gb25 made my life a lot easier. and made it possible for my car to pretty much do everything I need it to do.


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

been a while since my last update. as some of you probably know, I've been keeping my build log up to date CAJ but I've got a little bit of time to port some of that over to here. I'm gonna do a lot of quoting of myself to save time. Here goes...





erinh said:


> finally got the process of installing the mc amp rolling. pulled the amp wall out and took the amps off. then a test fit for the mc amp to make sure there's going to be plenty of room for wire routing. there's about 4 inches on each side of the amp, so all clear.





erinh said:


> Did some more work this weekend.
> 
> First, the trip to the hardware store to pick up materials for the amp wall. I grabbed a few different material and thicknesses... hanging on to the receipt to take back what I don't use.
> 
> 
> I used the old amp wall as a template for the new one. The new wall is 3/4" birch (to save weight over MDF). The trunk wall has a pretty serious angle to it and I don't want the amp to be angled down, so I cut the board a bit shorter and am standing it nearly straight up. That leaves me about 5-6" to work with behind the wall which is perfect as I can now move my power supply back there and I'm planning on putting a strip of wood the length of the wall to mount my distro block and speaker wire blocks. Test fit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depth
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> 
> As for the amp, I've got a design I plan to implement that will show off the amp but hide the wiring/amp wall. Since I'm not showing off the wall, rather just the amp, I didn't have a need to cover the wall. But I didn't like leaving it bare, so I painted it black. Went ahead and threw in some grommets for the wiring as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Now it's time to figure out the layout of the back wall. The easy part is knowing what I'm going to put back there: the JL DSP, XD400/4v2 will handle rear fill processing. As mentioned above, I'll also most likely be moving my power supply behind the amp wall. That's where I wanted it to go initially but it wouldn't fit between the trunk wall and seats. Now that I have the space since I'm standing the wall up vertically, the PS will fit there.
> 
> 
> Back wall





erinh said:


> more minor updates...
> 
> 
> After reading about ferrules in Steve's (captainobvious) build log I mentioned something to him and Scott (babs) about using some. Scott had some spare 4 gauge ferrules he sent to me. Thanks, Scott!
> 
> The ferrules fit the 4ga terminals perfectly but unfortunately the inner diameter (ID) isn't large enough to accommodate the full 4 gauge wire (I'm using JL Audio 4 gauge wire) without cutting it down some. So, we'll see if I use 'em or not.
> 
> 
> Also I did some more work in the trunk. Nothing major. Just kind of prepping it. I pulled the power supply off the rear deck (where it was bolted, upside down) and I also glued carpet to the trunk wall to hide all the silver from the CLD foil. Did another test fit on the board now that it's been painted and it looks good. The left side of the board doesn't sit flush with the wheel well but that's OK since it will be hidden anyway.





erinh said:


> It's still too hot for me to get motivated to do any real work but I did want to share that I made my decision on RCA cabling. I was going to DIY my own but TBH I just plain didn't want to. Pre-made RCAs are kind of a crapshoot in all facets: build quality, flexibility, performance. I've never really been a 'cable' guy past plain ol' ease of use and noise rejection. What I mean is, I've never gone about swapping out cables seeking a particular sound and I've never written about one cable sounding better than another unless in relation to its ability to reject noise. I really have had trouble finding a good cable that wouldn't break down on me in a couple years and also be super flexible.
> 
> With that in mind, I went shopping for cables for the first time in about 5 years. I looked at some options I had used in the past that I like: namely the old streetwires musica series. But they've been discontinued for years and finding (4) pair of 12+ feet is tough. I looked at a lot of options from Knukonceptz, to Monoprice and everywhere in between. Nothing tickled my fancy. Some would have done the job just fine but I guess I was looking for something a bit more exotic, TBH.
> I dug around some more and came upon the Stinger 9000 Series RCAs. Super expensive but the tech (marketing) piqued my interest.
> 
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> So, I dug around and with some help of a friend, located a dealer who was willing to sell me some at a deal that I couldn't pass up. I ordered (4) pair of 12ft interconnects.
> 2 Channel Interconnect 12ft - Stinger
> 
> 
> I'm not going to pretend that I expect miracles in sound quality out of a cable. I'm just not *that* kind of guy. But what I am expecting is as neutral a connection as one can get (which I would expect out of other connectors) and excellent noise rejection (which would help the 'neutrality' of the cable).
> If I get froggy (hehe) I'll try to do some A/B against a few of the RCAs I have here. I'll even do my best to measure these for inductance and capacitance and compare to some of the others I have. Of course, I couldn't really quantify what those results would mean in a subjective listening environment unless the differences were rather large.
> 
> 
> 
> I got them in yesterday and my initial impression is: these cables look to be what I was hoping for. Excellent build quality, great flexibility and great end connectors - the shield clamps down on the RCA by tightening the barrel... yea, no more loose or overly-tight connectors!. It may be a while before I get them installed and it will certainly be a month or two before they are put to use because the system won't be playing for a long time. But I'll post up any thoughts I have should the cables perform better or worse than I expect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

more updates...




erinh said:


> Just an illustration of the flexibility of the stinger 9000 RCA. The cable is thick but super flexible.





erinh said:


> so back to the car audio...
> 
> 
> I _was_ going to use my JL XD400/4v2 for rear fill. But last week I saw a guy on facebook post this Mcintosh MC423 up for about $170. It's a small little dude... does about 30wx2 @ 4 ohm. Figure that's perfect for rear fill and to keep the Mcintosh amp theming. So, tada!!!!!





erinh said:


> I've also been a bit curious about the Sony RSX-GS9 headunit. My first impression last year when it was coming out was it looked/seemed stupid. It's display is pretty much useless and I didn't see the point. I got to mess with it in Tim's truck a couple months ago and it wasn't so bad using the SongPal app. Took me a bit to realize that it's intended to be used a bit differently than other headunits. Most you plug up a USB or iDevice to it and control it from the deck. However, the sony is a different story: it's intended to be navigated via the app. Plug a USB drive in to it and control song selection via the SongPal app. You guys know how this audio hobby can be sometimes where you want to try something and it festers until you do. So, that's what I did. I got a "loaner" to try out.
> 
> Since I'm not installing anything yet I figured I'd order the GS9 to try on the bench and see how I like it in person. I haven't gotten to do that just yet but I did go ahead and look at it with the Denon meters. Then compared it to the P99 with Denon meters. The Sony matte finish looks better with the Denon but the P99's window matches the Denon. Of course, if I were to run the GS9 then I'd have to use a DSP... which is perfect because I have the JL TwK88 pictured a few posts above. I'm gonna need some time with the sony to see what I think. And I do want to do some listening comparisons to see if there's anything absolutely noticeable sound-wise compared to the P99.
> 
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> The power supply for the Sony is a beefy dude:





erinh said:


> this is the Sony vs P99 with the Denon. Pics taken with my phone.
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> 
> FWIW, I showed my wife the Sony and asked which she liked the look of more: the sony or the p99. She said "that one looks ugly" about the Sony.
> 
> Personally, I'm neutral. Like I said above, they both match the Denon meters in their own way. I wish Sony hadn't put all those inputs on the front of the headunit. They should have put them on the back with the other USB input... but I suppose they did this for ease of use. Still, I think it would look better with all of the ports on the back.





erinh said:


> I'll preface all the below by saying that this is all my opinion/gear buying choice making steps. I don't expect it is the same for others but that's why we all have our own build logs. lol
> 
> 
> 
> These are the things that determine how I buy a headunit:
> a) looks
> b) function (DSP)
> c) GUI
> d) sound quality
> 
> Ranking those, I'd probably say the order of importance is evenly distributed with a nod toward the looks and GUI. For me the sound quality and DSP aspects are typically less of a concern because most modern electronics today are good... and I'm not buying garbage... and I _typically _use an external DSP. Cost isn't there because if I really like the headunit I'm OK spending necessary money, at least within reason.
> 
> With that said, however, my initial purpose with this build was to rock the P99 as my DSP source so I'd have the 'cleanest possible signal' going to the Mc amps. But, some gear head friends of mine told me to give the Sony a spin (ha!, with no CD drive! ha!). Thus, here I am.
> 
> I'm with you in thinking that all the great benefits upstream are subject to what is downstream and in the case of the Sony there certainly would have to be a DSP downstream since it doesn't have DSP built in for active setup. The weakest link in the chain notion. This case is a bit different for me, though. The whole package should be considered... if using an external DSP I gain the ability of PEQ which is greater than GEQ. I lose at-will control of the P99 but that isn't an issue because I don't tweak for hours or fiddle with settings while driving. So the Sony+JL TwK88 combo isn't really 'losing' here.
> 
> However, two main things remain to be seen: 1) how I like the Sony on a day-to-day basis: does the app satisfy my needs or does it drive me batty and 2) is there a noticeable difference in SQ when comparing the P99 vs the Sony+JL DSP. #2 is also somewhat a bit tougher because I know for a fact that I can achieve a better in-car response with about 3-5 bands of PEQ than I can with the P99's GEQ but is that better FR overall better than the 'electronics' sound' of the raw P99? I'm not big on sound of electronics. So I'm more apt to be forgiving of that. Then, _for me_, the weight of the issue comes back to GUI. Of course, this is all without having tested the P99 vs the Sony head-to-head. I plan to do that this weekend. I'll report my findings if they're significant enough. Otherwise the decision between headunits will boil down to personal taste.





erinh said:


> some more info on how this things works...
> 
> 
> 
> As I said in my earlier post, when I first saw this headunit with the small display I thought it was incredibly stupid. Once I got a chance to use it, however, I realized what was going on. Sony intends for people to use their phones - which so many of us have - as the display. Or you can buy a cheap android tablet/iPad to act as the display. You download the app and you use that to navigate the song structure, menu, settings, etc. The app syncs wirelesslessly via Bluetooth so all you do is connect the app to the headunit and you're good to go. You can still use the physical headunit itself or you can control functions via the remote but the app is the real display.
> 
> I took some screenshots of my iPhone 6s using said app to give you guys an idea of what it looks like. Note you can rotate the display to view the app in portrait or landscape view. Also, the background color of the app changes with the music. The album art is pulled from Gracenote it seems but I'll need to check to see if it will show embedded art (I know it didn't in this particular case because the album art I have on iTunes is different than what is displayed below).
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> Radio as the source:
> 
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> Song list:


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and another...



erinh said:


> I've been doing some testing on the Sony and the P99. I'll post up more details later but for now I just wanted to share some pictures...





erinh said:


> Alrighty!... got my little one in bed and slapped my new headphones on. Ready for this!? Let's go!
> 
> 
> My purpose in bench testing was a) see how I like the control of the Sony and b) do some basic testing of the electronics.
> 
> a) Well, this one's still TBD. I need more time and I really should install this in the car to say for certain how cumbersome (or not) using the iPhone for display is. So, let's get to b)...
> 
> b) The P99 is a great headunit so having it on hand to compare the Sony directly to made life a bit easier. First up: pre-out voltage.
> I took a 1khz, 0dB tone and played it on both the Sony and the P99 (I tested both AUX and USB inputs; same results).
> 
> The results were as follows:
> *Pioneer P99 doesn't clip at full volume (62/62), with a measured voltage of 4.73 Vrms. *I finally got the unit to clip with a boosted tone and have determined the P99's clipping point is roughly 5vRMS. But, again, I had to generate a boosted tone to achieve that. The P99 puts out clean voltage all the way up.*
> *Sony RSX-GS9 clips at 49/50, with the voltage being just below 4.20 Vrms. Once you go above 4.20 Vrms the GS9 output is clipped (distorted). *
> 
> *I've had some friends tell me their units clipped at 60/62 on the p99. I've had about 4-6 of these units in my hands and personally haven't found one that has clipped. But, just letting you know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's some pictures of the output testing...
> 
> 
> 
> P99. 4.73 Vrms and no clipping indicator in the D-1.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Sony GS9. You can see at 4.20 Vrms I got a clipped signal indicator.





erinh said:


> Moving on...
> 
> 
> I've noticed in past testing the P99 seems to have a very quick 'jump' in voltage output at the end of it's turn. To explain, the P99 has a maximum volume of "62". Between 59 and 62 the voltage jumps quite a bit (something like 1 full volt; I'd have to double check my numbers which are saved on another computer in my garage). I was curious to see just what the volume number vs output voltage looked like. How close to logarithmic is it? And how does the Sony GS9 compare?
> 
> To test this I simply took the same 1khz tone referenced above and played it through each headunit. I turned the volume up and recorded the voltage out one increment at a time from Zero to Max. With Max, it's 62 clicks for the P99 and for the GS9 it's 50 clicks.
> I then plotted the volume vs voltage both as a percentage. So, if the volume knob was at 62/62 that was 100%. The max voltage out would be 100% voltage. Make sense? Okay, cool! Here are the results:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> ^ What you can see is that the Sony volume knob is more incremental but still logarithmic. The P99 is much more steep at the end of the volume scale. *The P99's output voltage increases nearly 66% in the last 10% of the volume turns (that's about the range from 56-62).* Now, is this good? Bad? Heckifiknow. I think it's more subjective. But it doesn't seem good to me. Seems the Sony really looks like the typical/ideal audio log. The P99's taper bothers me to see such a steep swing in such a short range. I prefer the volume steps the Sony implements. Why? Because there's not much wiggle room... with the P99 it seems like they simply have too many steps in volume, and that's also based on my experience. Seems like they could have had less stops in the volume and maybe made the taper more gradual like what you see with the Sony's volume taper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the same thing as above but instead of representing the voltage as a percentage, I've provided it as the real voltage numbers. I made sure to color the Sony's clipping area in red, overlaid on the otherwise burgundy 'line'. (Note: the header of the graph is incorrect but I'm not sweating it.)
> 
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> This should also really gives you pause if you're the person who says to set gains based on 75% headunit volume and you still use attenuated tones to set amp gains. You're leaving a lot of signal on the floor and then ramping it up even more by using a -10dB or so tone. That's why it's good practice to know where the source and/or DSP clip and set them to max unclipped output before setting amp gains. But that's a side topic.





erinh said:


> and now we get to the part where I shouldn't be posting because it's total blasphemy and whatnot: the (sighted) aural test!
> 
> 
> I hooked up both the P99 and GS9 on the bench, fed with a USB source signal and did a totally sighted audition. I did set the headunit voltages to the same output (about 0.844 Vrms) with a 1khz tone to match them to the amp input. Then I went about my merry way of auditioning with my eyes wide open. It was funny... as I was listening I would think to myself "oh, this one sounds better tonally" and then think the opposite. I kept going back and forth on tonality. Ultimately, they're a wash. Even when using that 'DDSE' option on the Sony... I didn't hear anything that jumped out at me. Of course, the tracks I was using were high quality tracks anyway (you guys saw my 'Remasters and Audiophoolery' thread, didn't you? ). The only area where I kept feeling like there was a difference, though, was in the soundstage. It just seemed like the Sony had a larger soundstage and better separation. I'm not talking about "OMG, the Sony is the champion of the world!". But it was something I kept thinking sounded better. Maybe just psychoacoustics. Though, I did talk to a friend last night who said he felt the same way about the Sony. So who knows.
> 
> After that, I did some more electrical tests. The below is the difference between the P99 and the Sony GS9's frequency response. What you see are extremely minor differences... about 0.5dB at the extreme ends and I'm thinking that may be more to do with the impedance than the actual units' FR. But, this backs up what I was hearing regarding tonality... nothing here stands out at all and it shouldn't. There shouldn't be any deviance from flat in an electronic's frequency response... unless you're talking about Tubes, maybe.





erinh said:


> Basically, all of that above to say this:
> 
> Sound Quality speaking... as just a pure deck and not considering the DSP or UI... both the P99 and GS9 are great units. The noteworthy thing here, as unsurprising as it *should* be is this: there is no clear winner. They're both great units.
> But if you're thinking "oh, man, that Sony is the bee's knees" and you already have a P99 and are satisfied with it: don't waste your money seeking better sound. The P99 doesn't get beat up here. They're both just extremely good sources. Plus as Clay mentioned earlier, if you use the Sony you're gonna have to have a very nice DSP downstream.
> 
> Now, when you factor in the P99's built-in DSP, the P99 is the logical buy. But that stupid volume swing bothers me. And I do prefer the overall look of the Sony. Then there's user preference on interface (I like the p99's scroll wheel remote but think the Sony's app display is interesting). So there are certainly reasons to choose one over the other as trivial or legitimate as they may be. I just advise not getting caught up in the notion that the Sony beats the snot out of the Pioneer in SQ (or vice versa) because - as far as my ears can tell - that's simply not the case. My $0.02. Of course, you know how opinions are... This is simply one of those kind of things you have to try out for yourself to know for sure. Luckily Crutchfield has a relaxed return policy.
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I'm still personally on the fence, though I keep leaning back toward the P99's simplicity and, in my case, the notion of running straight in to my beloved Mc amp. Decisions, decisions...





erinh said:


> I took some time this morning to try the Sony SongPal app on my iPad mini 2. Compared to using my iPhone, the iPad is a LOT easier and safer to navigate.
> Worth noting, though, that the app is designed for the iPhone. So when you search for SongPal under iPad apps it doesn't show up. Wonder what a native iPad app would look like... if nothing else just higher resolution I would expect.
> 
> The ipad was just resting in my dash space... it's not molded in. I'm still personally leaning toward the P99.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

and finally...



erinh said:


> well, after tinkering with the sony a bit more I've made up my mind: I'm going to use the P99. For a few reasons:
> 1) P99's built in DSP makes my life easy
> 2) P99 plays my iPod and that's one less piece of hardware I have to buy (no need to buy a USB)
> 3) Sony would require an outboard DSP and by the time I do that any benefit in SQ, not that I really found one, is made moot
> 4) I don't like the phone for my display with the Sony. I'd have to use an iPad and I'm not really digging that as an option right now.
> 
> The Sony's main benefits (for me) are it's nice volume knob and it's simple display. But the former isn't going to be used because the headunit would be too far away from my seated position and the latter is strapped to my dislike of using my phone as the display for music selection. I do wish the P99's volume steps were more like the Sony but that's not enough to make me keep it.
> 
> I see the appeal for others who use the Sony. But in my case, it's just not the right choice... at least not right now. Maybe something will change down the line but for the time being I'm sticking with the P99 over the Sony.





erinh said:


> Got the mc meters today. Woot!
> 
> There's a small crack at the bottom and all sorts of swirl marks on the glass. The ad said flawless faceplate so that was BS. Instead of sending it back I'll live with since I got it for a low price. Basically all I wanted was something cosmetic just to be a bit different and I think these match really well to the p99. And for what I paid, I can do some small repairs myself with glass cleaner and get 'em shined up. Still need the little sideplates but I'll mess with that later.
> 
> I think they look pretty freakin' awesome with the P99.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the blue p99 color for Kelly.





erinh said:


> The right side of the meters was ugly and had a stained look to them. Took the unit apart and found some gunk between the meter graphics insert and the glass. Cleaned it up with a light touch of rubbing alcohol and H2O and all is well. Yea!





erinh said:


> I mentioned previously that the meters were in worse condition than I expected. The face was covered with swirl marks and a few gnarly scratches. I contacted Mcintosh to see if I could buy a replacement face and/or if there was a service manual available so I could determine how to disassemble the glass from the body and install a new piece of plexi. I was met with a "no" to both questions. So, figuring the mpm used plexi, based on how light it was, I initially tried the Novus plastic repair kit that so many use for headunit scratch cleaning. I spent a lot of time and a lot of elbow grease to no avail. I figured the mpm must actually have a glass face but I contacted Mcintosh again to ask and sure enough, they told me it was glass. Well... ain't that grand.
> 
> I tried a few homebrew glass repair tricks and none of those worked. So, it was time to bring out the big guns! I used a cutting pad and my Harbor Freight DA with meguir's cutting compound and went to work. I spent about 30 minutes cutting, then some time polishing. It's not perfect but the swirl marks are all gone and I got rid of the big scratches. I'm now left with the remaining pits but that's just gonna have to do. All in all, it's a pretty substantial difference between what it looks like now vs before.
> 
> Here's some pics of before...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and here's what I got with the DA





erinh said:


> more cosmetic stuff...
> 
> 
> like the amp meters which I plan to change over to LED, I decided to do the same to the meters.
> 
> The meter uses regular ol' incandescent bulbs with a blue cover over them like you see in the picture below (right most bulb missing because I had already taken it out). I measured the voltage across the leads to determine what resistor I needed to use. then went to work. in the process I stupidly was thinking the bulbs were wired in series and it took me soldering all my new LEDs in place and then blowing them to realize I was wrong. luckily it was a cheap mistake.
> 
> so here's the board with the bulbs...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here's a test fit of the 5mm diffused LEDs I used:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here's a couple soldered in place:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unfortunately it's really hard to take a good picture of LED lighting. like, really hard. and all I'm using right now is my phone. the pictures look way washed out. but trust me when i say that this looks AWESOME in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> funny thing. I didn't realize until tonight that the "mcintosh" logo lit up. when I took the board apart to start the process of replacing bulbs I saw one that looked like it would be for the mc logo. but there was no voltage going across it's terminals so I thought it must be dead. later I hooked up the illumination wire (the typical orange/white wire in the harness) and the mcintosh logo lit right up. go figure. I may order a green LED to replace that one as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I might throw another resistor on to lower the brightness but will need so see how it looks in the car first.





erinh said:


> Finally reached a good stopping point on all this headunit madness.
> 
> Mc meters with about an hour of sanding/polishing on the faceplate and a bulb-to-LED swap and 560 ohm resistor for 2 LEDs.
> P99 set to blue color with a light blue gel filter inserted to help matching.
> 
> Looks pretty awesome if I do say so myself.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

all caught up now. 

currently working on swapping my mc4000m bulbs over to LED. Since I burned up 4 on the meters by being stupid, I have to order more to get the amp done. Yea!


----------



## Kazuhiro

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wicked stuff....that connectivity is bliss. Those are the only two of very few headunits which have all the hardware and the device support to complete it. I'm having to go stupid lengths for the same setup with a 88RSII.


----------



## whoever

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, for whats its worth my profession is high end vehicle paint polishing. For glass there are specific pads and polish. You want to use this pad...

CarPro Glass Rayon Polishing Pad - 3" - www.CarPro-US.com

and this polish, its optical grade...
CarPro CeriGlass Polish 150ml - www.CarPro-US.com

also, you can order a 3" backing plate for your Harbor Freight DA

You will get much better results, follow up with the Meguires when your done that step.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Cool. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the info.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks great Erin, what a perfect shade of blue!


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

All this polishing talk has me thinking about the windshield and the awful headlights.
The 08 windshield is bad bad bad, as you know Erin when I think you recently got a new one. Huge difference huh.


----------



## seafish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That McIntosh meter looks INSANE with the P99. NICE work!!!


----------



## DavidRam

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow, this is awesome stuff! Sub'd


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I think the McIntosh meters + P99 source you landed on looks excellent. And I love the simpler approach of source=DSP with the McIntosh amps.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

thanks for the positive vibes, dudes.  this car _may _be going away as early as next October so I'm trying to give it one last hoorah. Hopefully I actually finish said hoorah before I get rid of it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Started the process of modding the mc mc4000m meters from bulb over to LED. I mentioned that I had planned to do this in a post a couple months ago but I just got to it. The OEM teal is not my cup of tea at all... just looks very bland. The new LED swap is exactly what I needed. It really grabs your attention like the newer McIntosh home amps do (they use LEDs instead of bulbs now). And now the amp in the back will match the mpm4000 meters up front. Yea! 

I'm using the blue 5mm diffused LEDs available from Oznium here. The OEM board has (4) bulbs wired in parallel as you can see here:












After some trial and error, I wound up wiring up (2) pair of (2) LEDs in series with a 180ohm resistor for each pair. That netted me the brightness I was looking for without being too bright or too dim (FWIW, wiring the 4 LEDs in series is much too dim). 

I have to say, not being an experienced solder guy, I was nervous as heck. This is an expensive amp and no longer made. But it turned out well in the end. Took me probably 4x longer than it would take an experienced person but you gotta start somewhere, I suppose. 


As with the mpm4000 meter LED upgrade, taking pictures of LEDs is really tough and they really don't do justice to what you see in person. But here they are anyway...


4 LEDs dropped in place of the OEM bulbs.















LEDs lit up:














OEM "teal" meters...













Upgraded LEDs in place:














New LED fitted meter on the right in the below pictures. You can't even tell the left side meters are lit up, but they are. 























So, all in all, I'm very happy with this mod. I need to finish off the other side next. Then it's time to begin the install.


Edit: I purposely left out pictures of the completed board. No one wants to see that crime scene. LOL. In all seriousness, though, I am happy with how it looks... I wish I were more skilled in soldering but I've come a long way from my glob jobs of yore.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Man, that looks awesome Erin.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks, dude! Just gotta finish the other side up.. maybe I can get that done sometime this next month. lol


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow Erin , just wow. My goodness that is so sick! 
Custom leds are tight! 
Love the tear down and restoration on the vu meters and amp. 
Can't wait to see more .


----------



## danno14

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Good to see all the work you're performing on my unicorn!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



oabeieo said:


> Wow Erin , just wow. My goodness that is so sick!
> Custom leds are tight!
> Love the tear down and restoration on the vu meters and amp.
> Can't wait to see more .


thanks, dude! I've considered doing some other mods/repairs to the amp before it goes in the car. Not really sure I'm up to that kind of work, though, so I'm going to reach out to a fellow here and see if he thinks he can help me out.




danno14 said:


> Good to see all the work you're performing on my unicorn!


haha. for sure! I'm treating it gently!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I got the other meter wired up with LEDs last night. Now with that out of the way I can actually start on the install. Yea!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have to admit... as much as I really like the pride in doing things myself, the way my life has been the past few months I'm at a total snail pace. For those who don't know, my wife works weekends at the hospital. Night shift, too. We have a 6yo which means I don't have much 'free time' at all on weekends anymore. When I come home from work I don't like to be the kind of Dad who runs out to the garage either, so I'm relegated to little things here and there which is why it's taken me so long to get anything done. I haven't had tunes since May and at this pace I may not have tunes until next Spring which really sucks. Having said all of that, for the first time in a very long time, I'm seriously considering asking an installer friend of mine what he'd charge to knock out some of this work.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I have to admit... as much as I really like the pride in doing things myself, the way my life has been the past few months I'm at a total snail pace. For those who don't know, my wife works weekends at the hospital. Night shift, too. We have a 6yo which means I don't have much 'free time' at all on weekends anymore. When I come home from work I don't like to be the kind of Dad who runs out to the garage either, so I'm relegated to little things here and there which is why it's taken me so long to get anything done. I haven't had tunes since May and at this pace I may not have tunes until next Spring which really sucks. Having said all of that, for the first time in a very long time, I'm seriously considering asking an installer friend of mine what he'd charge to knock out some of this work.


I kinda know that feeling.. My pillars are still in primer. Amp rack has basically free range RCA's just laying around. Months and months putting it together and since I have it playing, it's dang hard to do the last finishing touches.

Heck, how about I come down one weekend and we knock it out? I'll bring Erin and the two girls can go play and have a blast while we get silly with fiberglass and MDF.


----------



## TheDavel

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I'm seriously considering asking an installer friend of mine what he'd charge to knock out some of this work.


If I don't move out of the country, I would take care of your project at no charge... just have to figure out getting it to the DC area, which isn't the hardest thing in the world-


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

[QUOTE=TheDavel;4227106]If I don't move out of the country, I would take care of your project at no charge... just have to figure out getting it to the DC area, which isn't the hardest thing in the world-[/QUOTE]

If something happens and Dave's available to do it, and he wouldn't mind, I'd run up to MD and help him out with it. I'd just love to work with him once and pick up some skills! I bet we could knock it out over a weekend.


----------



## TheDavel

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



1FinalInstall said:


> If something happens and Dave's available to do it, and he wouldn't mind, I'd run up to MD and help him out with it. I'd just love to work with him once and pick up some skills! I bet we could knock it out over a weekend.


I am so down for this Jason! I should know something within a week or two...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Man, if I were closer to you I'd soooo take you up on that offer. Just not sure I could swing it.

But, I can't say this sincerely enough: thank you (both) for the offer. It really means a lot that it would even be considered. The level of skill and work you guys have shown in your respective installs is incredible and I'd love to be able to take you up on your offer if it weren't so far away.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Man, if I were closer to you I'd soooo take you up on that offer. Just not sure I could swing it.
> 
> But, I can't say this sincerely enough: thank you (both) for the offer. It really means a lot that it would even be considered. The level of skill and work you guys have shown in your respective installs is incredible and I'd love to be able to take you up on your offer if it weren't so far away.


How far was the drive to Jason's for ya back in April Erin?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just under 8 hours. To DC it's about 11. I googled it earlier. Lol.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Just under 8 hours. To DC it's about 11. I googled it earlier. Lol.


Got it. I was thinking if you'd be ok with me driving your car from NC to DC, I might be able to get shipping from you to me, and then back to you for what it would cost for your guy, possibly less, to do the install. I still have my account with the largest wholesale shipping hub in the world. I use to ship around 50 cars a month. Only issue is I think you've told me this is your only car.


----------



## danno14

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Man, if I were closer to you I'd soooo take you up on that offer. Just not sure I could swing it.
> 
> But, I can't say this sincerely enough: thank you (both) for the offer. It really means a lot that it would even be considered. The level of skill and work you guys have shown in your respective installs is incredible and I'd love to be able to take you up on your offer if it weren't so far away.


What a bunch of good folk here! *Yourself included Erin* - the benefit I've received from your "musings" are worth far more than what you realize. I'm pretty sure I speak for others on this as well 

Fwiw- getting a hookup and having the car shipped up to these guys would be pretty slick! I've been looking @ having something shipped and it seems like it's always at least a grand. Makes it tough to stomach on a vehicle worth less than $10k!!!


----------



## whoever

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'd be willing to donate 100.00 to have Erin's vehicle shipped. I've received a lot of useful information from his articles.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You know, there are times when I get really frustrated with this hobby for one reason or another. But having guys that I haven't met offer to lend a hand in a significant way really cements the reason why I love this hobby: the camaraderie. 

I really, truly appreciate the offers to help. It means a lot. At some point, I may have to take you guys up on this, lol.


I do plan to swing by my installer's shop maybe this weekend or next and talk with him about some stuff. Even if I could afford to get one thing knocked off my plate that would be a huge burden off my shoulders. I don't know if any of you guys have run in to this... maybe it's just me... but I've had this project looming for so long that it's wearing on me mentally. It's always on the back of my mind, so the sooner I get it resolved the happier I'll be. Even if I'm unable to swing having someone do some work for me this time, I'm definitely going to consider it with my next car... unless I wait until my daughter is a teenager and she wants nothing to do with me... then I'll have a lot of free time. LOL.


Thanks again for the offers, guys. It really does mean a lot.


----------



## imjustjason

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've got extra vehicles you could drive while yours is away for install.


----------



## DLO13

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



imjustjason said:


> I've got extra vehicles you could drive while yours is away for install.


Let me guess, you just need his social security number, bank account details and you will also send him the $100,000,000.00 his Saudi cousin left him?


----------



## imjustjason

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You're on to me.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> been a while since my last update. as some of you probably know, I've been keeping my build log up to date CAJ but I've got a little bit of time to port some of that over to here. I'm gonna do a lot of quoting of myself to save time. Here goes...
> 
> It's still too hot for me to get motivated to do any real work but I did want to share that I made my decision on RCA cabling. I was going to DIY my own but TBH I just plain didn't want to. Pre-made RCAs are kind of a crapshoot in all facets: build quality, flexibility, performance. I've never really been a 'cable' guy past plain ol' ease of use and noise rejection. What I mean is, I've never gone about swapping out cables seeking a particular sound and I've never written about one cable sounding better than another unless in relation to its ability to reject noise. I really have had trouble finding a good cable that wouldn't break down on me in a couple years and also be super flexible.
> 
> With that in mind, I went shopping for cables for the first time in about 5 years. I looked at some options I had used in the past that I like: namely the old streetwires musica series. But they've been discontinued for years and finding (4) pair of 12+ feet is tough. I looked at a lot of options from Knukonceptz, to Monoprice and everywhere in between. Nothing tickled my fancy. Some would have done the job just fine but I guess I was looking for something a bit more exotic, TBH.
> I dug around some more and came upon the Stinger 9000 Series RCAs. Super expensive but the tech (marketing) piqued my interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, I dug around and with some help of a friend, located a dealer who was willing to sell me some at a deal that I couldn't pass up. I ordered (4) pair of 12ft interconnects.
> 2 Channel Interconnect 12ft - Stinger
> 
> 
> I'm not going to pretend that I expect miracles in sound quality out of a cable. I'm just not *that* kind of guy. But what I am expecting is as neutral a connection as one can get (which I would expect out of other connectors) and excellent noise rejection (which would help the 'neutrality' of the cable).
> If I get froggy (hehe) I'll try to do some A/B against a few of the RCAs I have here. I'll even do my best to measure these for inductance and capacitance and compare to some of the others I have. Of course, I couldn't really quantify what those results would mean in a subjective listening environment unless the differences were rather large.
> 
> 
> 
> I got them in yesterday and my initial impression is: these cables look to be what I was hoping for. Excellent build quality, great flexibility and great end connectors - the shield clamps down on the RCA by tightening the barrel... yea, no more loose or overly-tight connectors!. It may be a while before I get them installed and it will certainly be a month or two before they are put to use because the system won't be playing for a long time. But I'll post up any thoughts I have should the cables perform better or worse than I expect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just an illustration of the flexibility of the stinger 9000 RCA. The cable is thick but super flexible.


I'm seeing more talk on the Stinger 9000 series RCAs recently. I can certainly appreciate both sides of the "roll your own" argument. I haven't used them, but what I really like about the 9000 series is the apparent build quality, high flexibility and the really nice locking barrels. 

I understand you had your preference and got a great deal on the 9000s, but did you ever consider the Stinger 8000 series? They lack some of the cosmetic flair of the 9000s and some of the more esoteric features (pure silver wire, etc.), but they supposed to be pretty flexible and also offer the locking barrels. It also doesn't hurt that they are available for about 1/5 the cost of the 9000s. 

The 8000s seem like a pretty good value for someone looking for features like a locking RCA that might not have the budget for something like the 9000 or the time/ability to build their own. Though, I am aware of one member who was selling his own custom interconnects claimed that the 8000s were " 100% rip off for what you get."


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^ Sure enough actual silver plated OFC? 

Happier than a pig in poop with the 6000 series I picked up, but the 8000 looks like a very nice upgrade, though I fear quite the pricing bump. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> ^ Sure enough actual silver plated OFC?
> 
> Happier than a pig in poop with the 6000 series I picked up, but the 8000 looks like a very nice upgrade, though I fear quite the pricing bump.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was seeing the same thing. It is a price bump to the 8000s to get the locking RCAs (something that seems pretty uncommon in pre-built RCAs). Not nearly the price jump to the 9000s.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞:  My full disclosure build and tune log*

I did look at the 8000 series. I actually looked around at a lot of different options. I kind of just lucked in to the 9000 series, though, at least as far as price is concerned. 

The locking RCAs is pretty neat to me. Especially after having amps that seem maybe a bit 'oversized' to where the barrels were always hard to remove from the amp. The locking setup should strike the balance between "stay on, stupid RCA!" and "OMG, let gooooo!".


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> The locking setup should strike the balance between "stay on, stupid RCA!" and "OMG, let gooooo!".



No joke there are two types. Loosey goosey and tight enough to pull off the plating and make you cry. Locking is a nice design if they're good. Haven't seen any aftermarket DIY connectors with that. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> No joke there are two types. Loosey goosey and tight enough to pull off the plating and make you cry. Locking is a nice design if they're good. Haven't seen any aftermarket DIY connectors with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


There are a few available from Parts Express. I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I haven't done a whole lot,of research.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



rton20s said:


> There are a few available from Parts Express. I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I haven't done a whole lot,of research.



Interesting.. I'll look again. Been using Reans for my home brewed RCA's. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## casey

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

really liking where this is going. Hoping itll be ready for the next NC spring meet so I can hear the 4th update to your setup.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I love the 9000s. There the only set of real nice high end cables that don't grip so tight that it destroys your input lugs tryin get the RCA off. And they screw fasten. 

800 bucks for a 4way, no?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Dropped the civic off at Audio X Friday morning. I got a call from Steve that afternoon about my kicks. The plan was to IB them outside of the car using the existing vents. It's worth noting the only reason I was going that way was because I was unable to get the airspace I wanted... I would have much preferred them to remain sealed but with the enclosure under my feet on the driver's side being such a PITA I didn't see a way around it. Steve said the passenger side enclosure is good and there was no reason to mess up something that worked so he said he can build a sealed enclosure for me on the driver's side that will go down the framerail... it'll take up a bit of space on the floor but my feet will not be on the enclosure anymore. My driving position wouldn't be compromised as it was before. I said, heck yea. So, it looks like I'll be able to keep the woofers sealed as they were. Some cosmetic on the passenger side and a re-build on the driver's side. 

He's already started on them but I'll hold off on the pictures until there's a bit more of the story to show. I'm really excited about this. I know having him do this stuff for me was the right decision because when I got back home I felt a sense of relief. No nagging in the back of my mind thinking "I need to start on my car!".



So yep, here's the car at Steve's. 







Also, my buddy sold me his McIntosh meter which is in better shape than the one I spent so much time cleaning up. The glass on his is practically unharmed. I'll keep my old one for parts.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Your car looks so lonely in that big install bay. Maybe I should drop my car off there and have Steve tune it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bigbubba said:


> Your car looks so lonely in that big install bay. Maybe I should drop my car off there and have Steve tune it.



Just bring it over to my house some weekend. Preferably when it's not hot.


----------



## bigbubba

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

May take you up on that.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Can wait see how they do it. Enclosure space in frame rail ? Hope it doesn't resonate in a weird way, maybe I'm envisioning something different. Sounds interesting for sure.
About how much gross airspace you think you'll get?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bigbubba said:


> May take you up on that.


Do it. Seriously. I'd be happy to help you get that thing up and running the way you want it. 




oabeieo said:


> Can wait see how they do it. Enclosure space in frame rail ? Hope it doesn't resonate in a weird way, maybe I'm envisioning something different. Sounds interesting for sure.
> About how much gross airspace you think you'll get?


Oh, no, not inside the frame rail. Along the side of the car... I called it the frame rail but I suppose that's not technically correct... not sure what the technical name is but it's of little consequence. I see why you were confused, though. My bad. When I built the enclosures I built around the gas/trunk lever but Steve said he'd relocate it and use the space along the frame rail to get more airspace. Not sure about airspace but a rough guess is it should yield the same, potentially slightly more, airspace than what I had before which was about 0.80ft^3, iirc. 


I wasn't going to post pics but screw it. This should give you an idea. There's excess but that's the general idea of the floorspace it'll consume. Same idea as I had but with a big notch for feet. 









Gotta love when your installer/friend sends you this:


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin- You've probably already thought about this, but grab yourself some of the clear protective film used on phones and cover that nice glass on the new meter to keep it in great shape 



Looking forward to seeing progress on the build!


----------



## D34dl1fter

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Do it. Seriously. I'd be happy to help you get that thing up and running the way you want it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, no, not inside the frame rail. Along the side of the car... I called it the frame rail but I suppose that's not technically correct... not sure what the technical name is but it's of little consequence. I see why you were confused, though. My bad. When I built the enclosures I built around the gas/trunk lever but Steve said he'd relocate it and use the space along the frame rail to get more airspace. Not sure about airspace but a rough guess is it should yield the same, potentially slightly more, airspace than what I had before which was about 0.80ft^3, iirc.
> 
> 
> I wasn't going to post pics but screw it. This should give you an idea. There's excess but that's the general idea of the floorspace it'll consume. Same idea as I had but with a big notch for feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta love when your installer/friend sends you this:


ohhhh I remember when I was getting the same kind of pics...cook does exactly what he says hes gonna do...it is gonna kick ass im sure...keep the updates coming!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



captainobvious said:


> Erin- You've probably already thought about this, but grab yourself some of the clear protective film used on phones and cover that nice glass on the new meter to keep it in great shape
> 
> 
> Looking forward to seeing progress on the build!




Great minds! Yep, I've got some from my iPad left over I had planned to use.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Okay I see how he's doing that. So he's going to make a new door sil trim plate as well? 
Pretty sweet though. To get .8 that tube would have to be pretty large and run all way back to car. I totally understand that pics are deceiving, always to make thinks look smaller and compressed . 

So let's say it is .8 , man how low you trying to get these to play down to? Or is it more of a bigger box less coloration kinda approach. Are you going to stuff it ? Sorry so many questions, my fit is almost the same exact car in many ways . I gettin ready do some kicks myself . This looks promising.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

6x6x36 is .75 cubes.


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Can't wait to see how this turns out !

No doubt it's in fantastic hands....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## knifedag007

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Cool build, I read all 58 pages. Interested in the kicks you are doing. I have an 8th gen coupe so I know the pain with the size constraints.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'm in for the new kick build! Sweet. Though it looks like you must have small feet. 

I'd love to do this in one of my vehicles, but I've got the gas cover release AND a foot-activated parking brake in the driver's side kickpanel to work around. And I don't really want to go the linear actuator route for the parking brake. I *could* do it but overall it'd be a PITA...Still debating.

So I can fully understand why you decided to let someone else do the work. Good installers can look at the task with a fresh set of eyes and a vast well of knowledge and experience to come up with a solution we wouldn't have thought of on our own. And a lot of times it's not worth your own time and frustration.

What are you doing for a daily driver?

I'm sure the Civic is gonna be amazing with Steve's hands on the task.  Definitely looking forward to seeing this progress. Congrats.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You could ditch the gas release all together and retro fit a Honda Fit gas door latch. You should have a factory pin switch that will trigger your alarm in the gas door . 

The fit just push on gas door and it releases no cables inside car. I don't imagine getting gas stolen from you is a huge concern


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

the lever is dual purposed: trunk and gas lid open.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> What are you doing for a daily driver?


The timing just kind of worked out well for me... I'm on work travel this week. Was asked to go last week and when that happened it made up my mind on getting Steve to do the work.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> the lever is dual purposed: trunk and gas lid open.


It's an si- you have trunk pop from fact fob no?

I just thinking if finding a new home for it messes with the custom work or becomes a pita to keep it.

Just an idea , I'm sure it will work itself out and be very nice in the end


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Not an si and no trunk pop on the key fob. I imagine Steve has already got an idea here... no need for me to tell him what to do.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Not an si and no trunk pop on the key fob. I imagine Steve has already got an idea here... no need for me to tell him what to do.


Will be interesting.. I think just a couple lever cables on that, push gas, pull trunk. You've long since moved your hood latch haven't you. That one and all that harness junk down in there looks like a real bear to move to do kicks. Not that I can anyway because of my size 11-1/2's and clutch pedal. An auto trans car does have that advantage for sure.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Not an si and no trunk pop on the key fob. I imagine Steve has already got an idea here... no need for me to tell him what to do.


Aah ! Got ya that's different than . However he does it gonna be sweet for sure.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Some updates from Steve...
















And passenger side...










Gotta say, I'm in awe of how the driver side is turning out. He sent me a picture of foot placement to show there's plenty of room. It's turning out awesome!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

When I dropped my car off with Steve I knew he would make the kicks look good. But I had no idea they would turn out this good! I'm so freaking impressed. I mean, this took what I had in mind and kicked it up a million notches!


----------



## SkizeR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

erin, do you think the drivers side enclosure having a very thin airspace portion will have any ill effects?


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Omg 

That is ****in pimp yo! 

:surprised: :jealous: 


That is truly innovative and down right sick with it . 

Amazing work. That is going to be so so awesome D) 
what a fun part of the build to see that level of getting what needs to be done done. 
I've never seen anything like this , can't wait to see more.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nick, I modeled it a while back with hornresp when I was considering the use of a tube in to the dash. IIRC anything above 3" diameter was large enough to not affect the response. And the square (rectangle) area here is larger than that.

Of course each situation is different. I wouldn't use the 3" diameter I gave above as a rule of thumb to apply to every situation like this.


----------



## beak81champ

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just wow!


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Making me think about springing for extra door cards, cutting and doing enclosures. 6-1/2" drivers for small sealed might get weird though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Man, this looks awesome Erin! I'm so happy everything worked out perfect for ya. Steve is doing an amazing job. Quick question for you, does it help installing 2 different density fillers inside of the enclosure? Am I correct assuming the grey filler is a bit more dense than the white? Love learning tips from you.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin those co-ax pro audio 8s would be pretty awesome in there .

Sorry I'm not completely caught up (you have a few build on this thread) I read the first build but I might have missed what drivers your doing in there. Sorry can't seem to find it amongst the 60 pages 

What drivers are you doing? Well at least what driver are going in first I should ask


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



oabeieo said:


> What drivers are you doing? Well at least what driver are going in first I should ask


The enclosures are built for Illusion Audio c10's (10 inch woofers). AudioFrog GB25 and Dayton ND16 tweeter in the pillars out of sight.


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This is simply spectacular !!!!

Perfect example of just how much of a PRO Steve Cook is... Can't wait to see these in person.... 



ErinH said:


> When I dropped my car off with Steve I knew he would make the kicks look good. But I had no idea they would turn out this good! I'm so freaking impressed. I mean, this took what I had in mind and kicked it up a million notches!


----------



## danno14

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Damn...... more than a little envy here sir! Congrats on what looks to be coming along nicely (to put it mildly!)


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

        
What a great install this is becoming and of course Steve's craftsmanship.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin, this looks fantastic. Props to Steve. I'm sure that you must be stoked! Well worth the expense as well as being completed incredibly fast. :thumbsup:


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

They vinyled?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yes.


----------



## Aldaa

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

WOW... just wow! :thumbsup:


----------



## robolop

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Amazing work dude.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> The enclosures are built for Illusion Audio c10's (10 inch woofers). AudioFrog GB25 and Dayton ND16 tweeter in the pillars out of sight.


10s! F$&k! Wow


----------



## Elgrosso

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Reallly cool! So you target 0.8/1 cuft? Awesome.
The 3" minimum restriction area you talked about is great information too, thx!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Talked to Steve a bit ago and he is finished with the kicks. Not done with the amp wall but I may drive up to his shop and help knock that out Monday or I'll take it back to him after I get everything wired up. He sent me pictures of the finished kicks. Words cannot really convey how excited and happy I am. He did in a week what I wouldn't have been able to do at all. The fit/finish is incredible. They dang near look factory! He said he put memory foam in the floors so I may just want to wear slippers to pick the car up. lol


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Talked to Steve a bit ago and he is finished with the kicks. Not done with the amp wall but I may drive up to his shop and help knock that out Monday or I'll take it back to him after I get everything wired up. He sent me pictures of the finished kicks. Words cannot really convey how excited and happy I am. He did in a week what I wouldn't have been able to do at all. The fit/finish is incredible. They dang near look factory! He said he put memory foam in the floors so I may just want to wear slippers to pick the car up. lol


This is simply spectacular. .... !!!

A perfect example of what a Pro can get done in a short amount of time....

WOW

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## danno14

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow is right! The only thing that will give away that it's not stock will be those big ol speakers!!!


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks terrific!!!


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

OMG...talk about up front bass.Nicely executed.


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just fantastic!!! Love it Erin! Your one of my heroes trying all kinds gear and placement .


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That looks awesome. I can't wait to accidentally put my foot thru it.


----------



## TheDavel

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Steve did an amazing job! I am sure you will love it!


----------



## Shapin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*









That big part donsent interfere with your driving?, i mean the back of your foot is touching it all the time, or its just look like that?


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Shapin said:


> That big part donsent interfere with your driving?, i mean the back of your foot is touching it all the time, or its just look like that?



That;s the one thing I am curious about too. Particularly, your left leg/foot and space/comfort for it. Looks like there is enough foot room.


These came out beautifully. Congrats!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Kicks are done and look fantastic. I bought new trim for my console and it made a big difference in looks. 
Plenty of foot space for a comfy ride. 


Amp wall needs to be wired up and beauty panel made. But so far so good.


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very cool to see this coming together. Do you plan on adding any sort of grills to cover the drivers for times that you will have passengers in the car?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yea, I do. Something simple to keep em safe.


----------



## DavidRam

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Wow, I've never seen anything like that! It's freaking amazing!


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

She's a beaut, Clark!


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigAl205 said:


> She's a beaut, Clark!


:laugh:


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


>


Looks a tad tight, but still freaking awesome!!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just the picture. My feets is comfy yo!


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Really nice, Erin. Now, with my OCD I'd just be worried about scuffing up that beautiful work! On the other hand, as long as it sounded great I'd be very happy. Enjoy.

However, knowing your M.O...I do see custom floor mats in your future. 

Oh, where did the trunk & gas cover release end up?


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigAl205 said:


> She's a beaut, Clark!






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I have quotes from that movie interspersed throughout my Christmas light display. lol.


----------



## robolop

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looking so cool dude.
You may be proud of it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> Really nice, Erin. Now, with my OCD I'd just be worried about scuffing up that beautiful work! On the other hand, as long as it sounded great I'd be very happy. Enjoy.
> 
> However, knowing your M.O...I do see custom floor mats in your future.
> 
> Oh, where did the trunk & gas cover release end up?


I plan to pick up some Scotch Guard... or find something a bit 'stronger' for that purpose. 

Latch ended up under/side of the front seat. Hidden... kind of funny when you see it. But I'm fine with it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Thanks everyone for the positive vibes. I'll update as I make more progress.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Man that's so killer.. Wish I could do this but your Illusion 10 is sitting right where my clutch pedal is. I know a certain other Si out west did put the JL 8's in there but it was cramped for my size 11.5's.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Love how Steve used both vinyl and carpet, looks amazing Erin!


----------



## rton20s

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> Man that's so killer.. Wish I could do this but your Illusion 10 is sitting right where my clutch pedal is. I know a certain other Si out west did put the JL 8's in there but it was cramped for my size 11.5's.


And that certain other SI and those JL 8s in particular absolutely rock.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



1FinalInstall said:


> Love how Steve used both vinyl and carpet, looks amazing Erin!


Yea, I like it. We talked about him using black vinyl/carpet but he went with the tan for the OEM look. I'm really glad he did because I think it looks a lot more OEM than when I had it in black.


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yeah, the black would obviously be a lot better at hiding dirt and scuffs, but being OEM tan color-matched looks REALLY NICE and "opens up" the interior. Good on ya, mate!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

agreed.


I went to my car this afternoon when I was leaving work. Opened the passenger side door to put some stuff in the seat and was met with the beauty of the passenger side kick panel. Made me grin at how awesome it looks. Had to take a picture, of course!





This is the point where I say to the haters of the world... if you're tired of me showing excitement over the kicks you can go ahead and leave the thread because it's not going to stop.  If you want to share in my enthusiasm then hang around. Hopefully I'll have some better pictures of everything once it's all wrapped up.


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That looks sexay!

I would still try to press the magnet with my foot to make the high beams come on 

#OldSkoolPickups


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yep, you need to get those giants in your kicks covered and protected from da feets. 

I'd be over the moon every day I hopped in the car and saw those, too!


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin I have JL Audio 12W 6 grills that will fit perfectly

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Julian, I've actually got a set of those grilles already. But thanks for the heads up.


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BigAl205 said:


> That looks sexay!
> 
> I would still try to press the magnet with my foot to make the high beams come on
> 
> #OldSkoolPickups


Know all about that!


----------



## 1FinalInstall

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

So you haven't talked about the other part, how does the monster Mc' attack sound vs the JL amps?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Not sure yet. Still haven't gotten music playing yet. Soon. Hopefully. Lol


----------



## doitor

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

10" subs in the kicks?
We all know this will snowball into 18" subs in there sooner than later so why waste time and money on this. LOL.

J.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

What he said....slacker.


lol


----------



## doitor

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

10" subs in the kicks?
We all know this will snowball into 18" subs in there sooner than later so why waste time and money on this. LOL.

J.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Jason, your turn to repeat your previous statement. LOL


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

next car I get... I'm gonna get something with more ground clearance. that way I can do what (shhhh) did and build the enclosure under the car.


----------



## thehatedguy

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Like this? 



thehatedguy said:


> What he said....slacker.
> 
> 
> lol


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

without the quotes, man! fix it!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

BTW, Jorge, it's nice to see you around, little bro. Let me give you a hug!


----------



## captainobvious

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yeah, haven't seen Doitor around in quite a while.


I know this is killing you seeing those everyday and not getting to hear them.


Just rubbing it in...don't mind me....


----------



## Black Rain

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This work is just amazing. Enjoy it and gloat all you want, its your.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## AVIDEDTR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



doitor said:


> 10" subs in the kicks?
> We all know this will snowball into 18" subs in there sooner than later so why waste time and money on this. LOL.
> 
> J.


He's alive


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AVIDEDTR said:


> He's alive





doitor said:


> 10" subs in the kicks?
> We all know this will snowball into 18" subs in there sooner than later so why waste time and money on this. LOL.
> 
> J.


I know right! Now there's a guy I've not read in a while. Good to see ya.


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You don't have CD1? Oh man, you're missing out!


----------



## benny z

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> You don't have CD1? Oh man, you're missing out!




I had 8 of them that he originally sent me. Years and years ago. I went thru a period where I didn't listen to them and I have no idea where the other 6 are. I've looked everywhere I can think of. :/


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Amp is all wired up. Still have some stuff to do before it's playing but I'm one step closer. Yea!


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Meh......

You made the comment about haters......I didn't see anyone being one, so I will. 

I HATE seeing gorgeous looking car audio, installed at the highest level in a very special install. Just hate it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Well, thanks for hating nicely. Lol.


----------



## Niebur3

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Well, thanks for hating nicely. Lol.


You know I'm joking.....it's awesome man!!!!!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Niebur3 said:


> You know I'm joking.....it's awesome man!!!!!




Of course, man! It's all good!


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That looks like ass!


...but I like ass, so it's all good


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


>


Great Idea. I should have my left leg shortened too...then I could fit 10's in my kicks like that. lol

Looks awesome, Steve did a great job. Don't change it before spring. lol

Jay


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> Great Idea. I should have my left leg shortened too...then I could fit 10's in my kicks like that. lol
> 
> 
> 
> Looks awesome, Steve did a great job. Don't change it before spring. lol
> 
> 
> 
> Jay



I've taken over the gear change fetish business. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



JayinMI said:


> Great Idea. I should have my left leg shortened too...then I could fit 10's in my kicks like that. lol
> 
> Looks awesome, Steve did a great job. Don't change it before spring. lol
> 
> Jay


LOL. Nice one!

It won't change. I can promise that. The better part of the reason for me having a professional do this was so I would get it done right and not feel the need to futz with it (especially after paying someone to do it right). I may change the dsp/headunit... I mean, never know what is around the corner. But driver choices I don't see being improved upon. This combo nets me exactly what I want out of my install. If the car lasts long enough, I may sell the whole dang thing as a 'turn-key, competition ready SQ car'. Or just pull the goods and then burn it to the ground.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Stinger RCAs with JL Audio marine speaker wire. Yeaaaaaa boiiiiiii!


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Now this is wack!


----------



## carlr

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That is one dream amp buddy!


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Absolutely loving this sir !!!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've followed most of your build iterations, this has a different feel to it. Maybe it's the massive undertaking and costs associated, but I bet you keep this a long while. I've thought so many times about getting large woofers up front, but just can't see me ever doing it, I'm jealous. Nice progress, look forward to a demo.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



schmiddr2 said:


> I've followed most of your build iterations, this has a different feel to it. Maybe it's the massive undertaking and costs associated, but I bet you keep this a long while.



You hit the nail on the head, man. This build is definitely different and for the reasons you noted.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Got a bit of work done today. Car is pretty much done. Still need to set the amp gains and then connect the front and rear fill speakers and then put in some trim pieces like the pillars and other stuff. But I'm close. Connected the woofers and defeated the crossovers just to have music to get me to work with. Sounded very promising.


----------



## optimaprime

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Awesome just freaking awesome!


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Is it the angle of the pic that makes the side passenger kick panel look closer to the rider or was it deliberate?


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Oh snap I finally got my 1000th post...yippeee!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strong*I*bumpin said:


> Is it the angle of the pic that makes the side passenger kick panel look closer to the rider or was it deliberate?




They are indeed angled differently. The angle from when I built them didn't change. The reason for that was simply for conservation of space. Left side can't sit anymore "flat" against the firewall without getting smashed behind the brake pedal. Right side could be angled more inward but then would cause the enclosure shape to be a bit more awkward and smaller than ideal. These won't be playing above 400hz so aiming is not a real factor here in regards to sound.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



optimaprime said:


> Awesome just freaking awesome!




Haha. Thanks!

It's been a long time since I've been so excited about my own car. Finally it doesn't look bad! Took me about 4 hours total on wiring the gear up in the trunk alone. Crazy how quickly time passes on such simple things. But... all the wires are secure and terminated well as opposed to having a rat's nest. Also had an old alpine media player harness on hand which was something like 12 feet long and had all sorts of colors. I used that for appropriate color wiring for constant (yellow) and switched (red) power on the headunit and DSP which will help if troubleshooting is ever necessary.


Looking forward to driving to work tomorrow with sound. It will be the first time since May the car has had speakers connected. Even if it's just the woofers, it beats the portable BT speaker I've been using.


----------



## cmusic

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Looks great! What mids and tweeters are you going with this time?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



cmusic said:


> Looks great! What mids and tweeters are you going with this time?


Thanks!

Well, I'm not changing the mid/tweeter from what it was earlier this year but just to refresh:
AudioFrog GB25 mids
Dayton ND16 tweeters


I'll use another set of the GB25 mids in the back for rear fill (delayed/attenuated/bandpassed).


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Well, I'm not changing the mid/tweeter from what it was earlier this year but just to refresh:
> AudioFrog GB25 mids
> Dayton ND16 tweeters
> 
> 
> I'll use another set of the GB25 mids in the back for rear fill (delayed/attenuated/bandpassed).


That's the amazing thing about this build.. Driver selection from an itty bitty silly cheap dayton tweeter with great freq response, to an over-achiever 2.5" mid to a 10" sub in kick panels no less. Had I not heard it, I'd have never believed it possible.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> That's the amazing thing about this build.. Driver selection from an itty bitty silly cheap dayton tweeter with great freq response, to an over-achiever 2.5" mid to a 10" sub in kick panels no less. Had I not heard it, I'd have never believed it possible.


My buddy has those tweets in his apillars in a RAV4 and they sound great and get freakishly loud for a tweet lol . They really are amazing for a little mdt-12/22 rival tweeter or what not.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Got the front speakers wired up last night, set the gains, plugged the car in to the wall and got to work on a tune. Took about 30 minutes with some T/A, levels and crossover and she's sittin' pretty. I'm just totally amazed at how well this system focuses without the need for any L/R EQing and no global EQ yet, either. It's by far the easiest system I've had to tune. As unconventional as the midrange/tweeter installation is, it flat out works. I'm sure as the weeks go by I'll start finding things that need an EQ band or two here or there but so far, so good. 

For the first time since May I drove to work with a fully functioning stereo. It was awesome. 

I still have to get the rear fill installed and fired up. I also have found that as awesome as the Mc single din meters look with the modded blue LEDs, they don't go well with the car. So, I'll pull the meters at some point and re-do the LEDs with white (or put the original bulbs back in; whichever looks best in the car).


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Fantastic sir !!!

So happy your system is beginning to come to life.... I'm hoping you make it to some shows in 2017... Really want to see and listen to this...

Congrats !


----------



## BigAl205

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Think outside the box...do UV black light LEDs https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...30-degree-viewing-angle-400-nm-40mw/630/1905/


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I've had a couple friends ask me if I can speak to the any sonic differences in the system due to the Mcintosh amp. I cannot. Too much in the system has changed: I went from a digital out headunit tied to the helix pro with volume control tied directly to the amps to an analog headunit with DSP and volume control built in. Not to mention the cables have changed. So there's no apples to apples comparison for me to draw from to say that "the McIntosh is doing X, or Y". 

But I can say that overall this iteration is better than it was in April so that makes me happy. The speakers haven't changed but the overall clarity of the system has improved and I am able to hear certain things with more definition than I had before like background voices in music. Actually, I heard a few things today I hadn't caught before in songs I've listened to literally hundreds of times. This could all be the placebo effect. If that is the case, I'm cool with it.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQ_TSX said:


> Fantastic sir !!!
> 
> So happy your system is beginning to come to life.... I'm hoping you make it to some shows in 2017... Really want to see and listen to this...
> 
> Congrats !


I plan to be around... not sure I'll be competing, though. But, heck, I hope you show up. You kept saying you were coming to shows this year but you never turned up. I'm still not sure you really exist. LOL. 

All in good fun.


----------



## BlackHHR

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Very nice Erin !! Love the combo in the dash.


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I plan to be around... not sure I'll be competing, though. But, heck, I hope you show up. You kept saying you were coming to shows this year but you never turned up. I'm still not sure you really exist. LOL.
> 
> All in good fun.



Man... TOUGH CROWD.... 

I'll be out in 2017.... I think.... :surprised:


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I've had a couple friends ask me if I can speak to the any sonic differences in the system due to the Mcintosh amp. I cannot. Too much in the system has changed: I went from a digital out headunit tied to the helix pro with volume control tied directly to the amps to an analog headunit with DSP and volume control built in. Not to mention the cables have changed. So there's no apples to apples comparison for me to draw from to say that "the McIntosh is doing X, or Y".
> 
> But I can say that overall this iteration is better than it was in April so that makes me happy. The speakers haven't changed but the overall clarity of the system has improved and I am able to hear certain things with more definition than I had before like background voices in music. Actually, I heard a few things today I hadn't caught before in songs I've listened to literally hundreds of times. This could all be the placebo effect. If that is the case, I'm cool with it.


Clarity and hearing more detail and definition from a non-optical straight up analog feed to the Mac over a digital direct feed prior to the XD's. Oh but all amps sound the same huh?  But that's saying something because these XD's are no joke. Enjoy that placebo. I suspect it's no placebo but a big wonkin' high-end straight-wire-with-gain amp in the back making nice music.


----------



## seafish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Can anyone link back to a pic of the the "hidden" tweeter/mid install?? TIA


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



seafish said:


> Can anyone link back to a pic of the the "hidden" tweeter/mid install?? TIA


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...disclosure-build-tune-log-43.html#post3287489


----------



## seafish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

^^^Thanks.


----------



## SouthSyde

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Sweet!!! Dude, what does MY tattoo say?


----------



## SouthSyde

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> I plan to be around... not sure I'll be competing, though. But, heck, I hope you show up. You kept saying you were coming to shows this year but you never turned up. I'm still not sure you really exist. LOL.
> 
> All in good fun.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Kevin K

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I'll be out in 2017.... I think.... :surprised:[/QUOTE]

Yeah...Yeah...yeah..


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*










No doubt I'll be at all shows in 2017...,
There's a very strong likely hood ....,
Definitely be at at least 3 shows...,
I plan to attend a lot of shows....,
Without a doubt I'd like to attend a show....,
I can tell you I would like to attend, if possible. ...,
Even if I can't be there.... I'll call about the shows.....,

So when are the shows.....??????

What were we talking about ????

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Everything looks great Erin, congrats. One question about your amp wall. Was it built on the idea of keeping the bass in the cabin or built onto the previous IB wall? Or is it just a cosmetic amp wall of sorts?


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Back on topic....

Erin your new system really looks to be special. .. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## rockytophigh

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I can verify that Jeremy exists lol. I've spent too much coin with the dude for him not to


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



t3sn4f2 said:


> Everything looks great Erin, congrats. One question about your amp wall. Was it built on the idea of keeping the bass in the cabin or built onto the previous IB wall? Or is it just a cosmetic amp wall of sorts?


Thanks, man. It's just cosmetic to show off the amp. I built it out of the old IB wall but the difference is it's pushed in to the trunk area about 5 inches so it can stand more upright since the trunk wall has a slope to it. So because of that, there's area around the wall where there's open space and the wall no longer seals off the trunk from the cabin.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQ_TSX said:


> Back on topic....
> 
> Erin your new system really looks to be special. ..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


haha. thanks. I see what you're trying to do, though ... don't worry... no more grief from me. You just better not leave us with any more empty promises, promises...


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



BlackHHR said:


> Very nice Erin !! Love the combo in the dash.


Thanks, Greg! I hope to see you sometime next year at a show or meet and listen to your latest creation. 



seafish said:


> Can anyone link back to a pic of the the "hidden" tweeter/mid install?? TIA


Looks like Josh got you squared away. If you have questions, LMK. 



SouthSyde said:


> Sweet!!! Dude, what does MY tattoo say?


HA! :laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Your car in a CarSound magazine... One question... When? 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

As awesome as that would be, I don't think it would ever happen.


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin's car isn't flashy enough for PASMAG. lol As amazing as it has sounded every time I've heard it, you can't experience that through a magazine or YouTube video. It's really an "in-person" experience.

Jay


----------



## mitchyz250f

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Erin I read that your still using the ND16 tweets. According to PE those can only take 10 watts. Is that all that your giving them and do you think the PE number is realistic or pessimistic?


----------



## beerdrnkr

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



mitchyz250f said:


> Erin I read that your still using the ND16 tweets. According to PE those can only take 10 watts. Is that all that your giving them and do you think the PE number is realistic or pessimistic?


I ran 150wrms on mine for months and never had any issues. lol


----------



## mitchyz250f

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The tweeter never saw a 150 watts or they would have exploded. 

Erin,
Is there such a small need for headroom at 6000Hz plus that the max SPL of 98db (88db sensitivity and 10 watts max) works? Or is there something else going on? 

BTW great thread and build. When I read that your next vehicle would have more ground clearance so you could run 18s and I realized that I'm always thinking inside the box.


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



mitchyz250f said:


> The tweeter never saw a 150 watts or they would have exploded.
> 
> *Erin,
> Is there such a small need for headroom at 6000Hz plus that the max SPL of 98db (88db sensitivity and 10 watts max) works? Or is there something else going on? *
> 
> BTW great thread and build. When I read that your next vehicle would have more ground clearance so you could run 18s and I realized that I'm always thinking inside the box.



Not Erin but, pretty much. Plus the typical reflective loading that happens in a car at the lower range of those frequencies makes the needed output even less. As well as our preference for a rolled off response as frequency increases.

Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?

"1 Power Distribution

A great part of the mystery is uncovered when we look at two aspects of music - the average versus peak power, and the energy distribution of typical music material.

It is commonly accepted (and quite valid) that music has a peak to average ratio of about 10-20dB. This means that if the signal is being amplified by a typical 100W amplifier, the amp's power rating limits the absolute maximum power to 100W (give or take a little). Since this is the peak, the average must be somewhat lower, and we will assume 10dB for the sake of convenience. Average power is therefore 10W or less at the onset of clipping.

This is not dynamic range per sé, but it is most certainly a part of the overall dynamic range of the music signal. The term 'dynamic range' usually refers to the very quietest up to the very loudest passages in a given piece of music. In some cases, there is no variation whatsoever - it starts loud, is loud in the middle, and (just to be different) finishes ... loud. The peak to average ratio may also be compressed, but it is difficult to reduce it to less than 10dB without it becoming flat and lifeless. If done incorrectly, it can simply become a jumbled mess with no intelligibility whatsoever (and no, I'm not going to take this to its logical conclusion and denounce various styles that may be classified as music to only a select few ).

Most speakers are rated for a continuous power and an instantaneous power - the voice coil and to a lesser degree the suspension can withstand short bursts at much higher powers without damage. This does not imply that such power will be reproduced cleanly, and it will almost certainly be with a large increase in speaker distortion. The peak power rating defines the maximum transient power the loudspeaker can handle without suffering electrical or mechanical (stress induced) damage.

Nearly all tweeters are rated to 'system power', and this will usually be quoted relative to a specific crossover frequency. A hypothetical tweeter may be rated at 100W system power when crossed over at 3,000Hz. The power that it can withstand is not 100W! Not at any frequency or for any duration. The actual bandwidth-limited long-term average power for most tweeters is around 10W, but many can't even handle that much without some distress.

Figure 1 - Power Distribution Chart










The above power distribution table is approximate (as must be the case), and applies for 'typical' music - whatever that may be. If we look at the case for a crossover frequency of 3kHz, we can see that 85% of the power is in the low frequency spectrum, and only 15% in the high frequencies above 3kHz. It is not difficult to deduce from this that the peak power to the tweeter will be in the order of 15W at full power from the amplifier, with the average hovering around 1.5 watts.

This is the way the system was designed to be used, and as long as the power amp does not clip, all is well (well, almost - read on)."


----------



## mitchyz250f

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

t3sn4f2 - Thank you for taking the time to explain that so well.

So if all your speakers had the same sensitivity throughout their frequency range and you were using a high order electronic crossover for a two-way crossed at 6000Hz; you would use 85 watt amp on the woofer and a 15 watt amp on the tweeter correct?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Great post, Frank. That's easily a better explanation than I could give. 

I'll supplement it with mentioning that when I set my gains on the amp for the tweeter channel I had to make an 8khz tone because the p99 has a non-detestable HPF at about 800hz/6dB (IIRC; I'd have to double check the values) for the "high" output channel. So when I tried to use my standard 1khz tone I realized I wouldn't be able to do so properly. For example, to make 100w at 4ohms I needed to supply 20v out of the amp. I was able to do this with a 1khz on all the channels from the amp except the ones driven by the p99's tweeter channels because the highest I could achieve was much lower... maybe something like 8v.... thanks to that non-defeatable HPF being so close to the tone I was using. So I made an 8khz tone on audacity and then set my gains. Which is more an exercise in maxing out the amp gains assuming a "full signal" is sent to it... once you add in your crossovers for the channel it changes things a lot as shown in Frank's post above.

I could model this up in hornresp but not sure I'll have the time this weekend. But I know it can be done.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



mitchyz250f said:


> BTW great thread and build.


Thanks!


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Great post, Frank. That's easily a better explanation than I could give.





mitchyz250f said:


> t3sn4f2 - Thank you for taking the time to explain that so well.
> 
> So if all your speakers had the same sensitivity throughout their frequency range and you were using a high order electronic crossover for a two-way crossed at 6000Hz; you would use 85 watt amp on the woofer and a 15 watt amp on the tweeter correct?


Anytime.

Yeah in theory it's enough, but sometimes you'll need more. For instance if you are playing a modern highly dynamically compressed song. That songs power distribution ratio will even out more so because the midrange and bass has its peaks essentially clipped off. Effectively bringing the high frequency level up relative the the mids/lows. Requiring then more output potential from the tweeter. 

We also tend to over drive midbass drivers to give the appearance of a louder system. Since we can due to a reduced sensitivity to distortion in those frequencies and the mids ability to take it compared to a tweeter. That has the same effect as what a overly compressed track would have. IOW we do our own dynamic compression of tracks.

Thankfully none of this is a concern since <50 watt per channel amps aren't the norm.


----------



## AccordUno

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



SQ_TSX said:


> Man... TOUGH CROWD....
> 
> I'll be out in 2017.... I think.... :surprised:


You better be.. Just saying.. :laugh:


----------



## Guest

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



AccordUno said:


> You better be.. Just saying.. :laugh:


.....


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

nope... repost. my bad.


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Reposts aren't terrible, we just want to see how this comes out.

So are you finishing up a lot of install details and tuning?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Hey, Josh... funny you should ask about finishing up. LOL. Makes for a good segue way ...

I've said it hundreds of times but headunits are my worst enemy. I may be the pickiest person I know when it comes to front ends. You're happy with yours? I'm jealous of that satisfaction. But, alas, I am the way I am. So let's get on with the show...

The alpine 957 I had the past two years was good but when I switched to the Mc I traded the helix dsp (partially) for the mc and had that whole "clean signal" idea of using the p99. I used the p99 and put a good solid tune on the system but there are a few key features the Helix has that will help make the system better than graphic EQ bands. Namely, shelf filter. I can throw a single shelf filter at my mids and remedy a few problems with that single filter where with the p99 I:
a) I have to use 4 graphic eq bands (which can cause phase issues right smack in the area where your ear is sensitive to phasing) or 
b) I have to use a 6dB slope at 1.2khz. 

The "b" option worked better than option "a" but it's not ideal. So I was looking back at the Helix. With the new Helix Pro 2 coming out and it having a few extra features over the Pro 1 (I'll get to one below), I decided to go that route for the time being, though.



So, back to an external DSP to get the response I want in the best manner. That leaves me the option of using a different headunit if I am so inclined. I missed the double-din GUI of the 957 but really dig the carplay stuff. So I looked around at the options and tried the following two:
Kenwood DDX9903s
Pioneer AVIC-8100NEX. I could have gotten the 8200nex but for my needs, there's no difference in the 8100/8200nex models so I went with the cheaper option.

I chose these over their breathren (i.e.; Pioneer AVIC-7100NEX) based on price and their having the Capacitive touchscreen. This screen type looks so much better than the resistive touchscreen, imho.

I got both in and bench tested them. Here's my very quick impressions on the bench:

Kenwood 9903s: NOISY. Mechanically and acoustically. The fan on the back of this unit is loud. And the output signal is corrupted with noise. You can find other comments reflecting mine in various reviews. It doesn't work with iPod classic, which I expected based on what the manual had to say. But I was hoping maybe it would. No bueno. It went back in the box after about 10 minutes. I _definitely_ wouldn't recommend the Kenwood unless they at least fix the noisy pre-outs. No way am I using this.
Pioneer 8100nex: Very nice. Clean signal... about 4v output without clipping. No noise. I connected both my iPod classic (5th gen, to be specific) and my iPhone at the same time. iPod in USB1 and iPhone in USB2. This allows me to switch sources on the fly. Sweet! I really like this unit overall but it's boot time is about 13 seconds and on top of that it loads the warning screen and you have to accept the warning before it'll start playing music. That's lame. 
Carplay is nice. Both units have it. And I really, really like it.


All that said, though, I don't know that I'll use the 8100nex. The helix pro 2 is going to have a direct USB add-on piece that would allow me to connect an iphone/ipad directly to it. No need for a headunit at all unless I cared about CDs and radio. So I'm _considering_ that option. I have a pretty large library of high-quality music but I also subscribe to apple music and use it a LOT. So a 128gb iPad in the dash connected to wireless network via my phone's hotspot is looking more and more enticing, especially since I can feed that signal straight in to the helix digitally. The iPad option has it's own problems, though. 

Of course, I can always just keep the p99 in spite of the things I don't care for GUI/features wise and pair it with the Helix Pro 2. Or I can use the p99 in conjunction with an ipad in the dash. Side note: I removed the mcintosh meters from up front. As awesome as they look, I just wasn't too fond of them in my car. The p99 looks better by itself... again, in my car. It's still a sweet looking combo but the p99 on its own looks better in my dash.

So that's where I'm at right now ... the headunit tale keeps going. No moral of the story right now. Just sharing some info. Mainly so people who are looking at the Kenwood 9903s or Pioneer 8100/8200nex may have a bit more info on them. I'll update the thread once I finally come to a real decision on what I'm going to do up front. 





Some pics of the 8100nex...


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

You love that capacitive touch tho no? 
Man that sounds like a slick setup for sure.
The 8100/8200 imo stomps on the 9902/9903s stuff. By a long shot. 
And some verizon phones won't work on the Kenwood for car play. At work there a nightmare and we just push pioneer. It's our slap in the face to Kenwood for once again making a crappy head unit. We just let them collect dust on the shelf while we do 4-5nex decks a day. 

Can't wait to see the helix 2, all the helix update that is out right now for the helix 1 makes it a much better option like tone control from the director. I can see why you want to make a switch. The p99 is very good your just a bit more advanced. Having to manipulate crossovers and the single eq to make slope for both sides works but isn't always the best and lends to having some pretty unusual electrical diffrances between L&R. 

I like your idea about the iPad , I would bet you like the 8100better tho maybe that's just me but a backup cam and swc input would make it for me especially if the helix2 has a video out for its USB in . You won't be missing much


----------



## Mic10is

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



ErinH said:


> Hey, Josh... funny you should ask about finishing up. LOL. Makes for a good segue way ...
> 
> I've said it hundreds of times but headunits are my worst enemy. I may be the pickiest person I know when it comes to front ends. You're happy with yours? I'm jealous of that satisfaction. But, alas, I am the way I am. So let's get on with the show...
> 
> The alpine 957 I had the past two years was good but when I switched to the Mc I traded the helix dsp (partially) for the mc and had that whole "clean signal" idea of using the p99. I used the p99 and put a good solid tune on the system but there are a few key features the Helix has that will help make the system better than graphic EQ bands. Namely, shelf filter. I can throw a single shelf filter at my mids and remedy a few problems with that single filter where with the p99 I:
> a) I have to use 4 graphic eq bands (which can cause phase issues right smack in the area where your ear is sensitive to phasing) or
> b) I have to use a 6dB slope at 1.2khz.
> 
> The "b" option worked better than option "a" but it's not ideal. So I was looking back at the Helix. With the new Helix Pro 2 coming out and it having a few extra features over the Pro 1 (I'll get to one below), I decided to go that route for the time being, though.
> 
> 
> 
> So, back to an external DSP to get the response I want in the best manner. That leaves me the option of using a different headunit if I am so inclined. I missed the double-din GUI of the 957 but really dig the carplay stuff. So I looked around at the options and tried the following two:
> Kenwood DDX9903s
> Pioneer AVIC-8100NEX. I could have gotten the 8200nex but for my needs, there's no difference in the 8100/8200nex models so I went with the cheaper option.
> 
> I chose these over their breathren (i.e.; Pioneer AVIC-7100NEX) based on price and their having the Capacitive touchscreen. This screen type looks so much better than the resistive touchscreen, imho.
> 
> I got both in and bench tested them. Here's my very quick impressions on the bench:
> 
> Kenwood 9903s: NOISY. Mechanically and acoustically. The fan on the back of this unit is loud. And the output signal is corrupted with noise. You can find other comments reflecting mine in various reviews. It doesn't work with iPod classic, which I expected based on what the manual had to say. But I was hoping maybe it would. No bueno. It went back in the box after about 10 minutes. I _definitely_ wouldn't recommend the Kenwood unless they at least fix the noisy pre-outs. No way am I using this.
> Pioneer 8100nex: Very nice. Clean signal... about 4v output without clipping. No noise. I connected both my iPod classic (5th gen, to be specific) and my iPhone at the same time. iPod in USB1 and iPhone in USB2. This allows me to switch sources on the fly. Sweet! I really like this unit overall but it's boot time is about 13 seconds and on top of that it loads the warning screen and you have to accept the warning before it'll start playing music. That's lame.
> Carplay is nice. Both units have it. And I really, really like it.
> 
> 
> All that said, though, I don't know that I'll use the 8100nex. The helix pro 2 is going to have a direct USB add-on piece that would allow me to connect an iphone/ipad directly to it. No need for a headunit at all unless I cared about CDs and radio. So I'm _considering_ that option. I have a pretty large library of high-quality music but I also subscribe to apple music and use it a LOT. So a 128gb iPad in the dash connected to wireless network via my phone's hotspot is looking more and more enticing, especially since I can feed that signal straight in to the helix digitally. The iPad option has it's own problems, though.
> 
> Of course, I can always just keep the p99 in spite of the things I don't care for GUI/features wise and pair it with the Helix Pro 2. Or I can use the p99 in conjunction with an ipad in the dash. Side note: I removed the mcintosh meters from up front. As awesome as they look, I just wasn't too fond of them in my car. The p99 looks better by itself... again, in my car. It's still a sweet looking combo but the p99 on its own looks better in my dash.
> 
> So that's where I'm at right now ... the headunit tale keeps going. No moral of the story right now. Just sharing some info. Mainly so people who are looking at the Kenwood 9903s or Pioneer 8100/8200nex may have a bit more info on them. I'll update the thread once I finally come to a real decision on what I'm going to do up front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of the 8100nex...



you have to stop buying new Head units, Scott wont be able to keep up with copying you


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



oabeieo said:


> You love that capacitive touch tho no?
> Man that sounds like a slick setup for sure.
> The 8100/8200 imo stomps on the 9902/9903s stuff. By a long shot.
> And some verizon phones won't work on the Kenwood for car play. At work there a nightmare and we just push pioneer. It's our slap in the face to Kenwood for once again making a crappy head unit. We just let them collect dust on the shelf while we do 4-5nex decks a day.
> 
> Can't wait to see the helix 2, all the helix update that is out right now for the helix 1 makes it a much better option like tone control from the director. I can see why you want to make a switch. The p99 is very good your just a bit more advanced. Having to manipulate crossovers and the single eq to make slope for both sides works but isn't always the best and lends to having some pretty unusual electrical diffrances between L&R.
> 
> I like your idea about the iPad , I would bet you like the 8100better tho maybe that's just me but a backup cam and swc input would make it for me especially if the helix2 has a video out for its USB in . You won't be missing much


I don't know wth Kenwood is doing so wrong to make the 9903s have noisy pre-outs. It's been a very long time since I've had a >$200 headunit have such a drastic problem. I turned the volume up and the noise increased with every click up of the volume. That was an instant 'no-go'. 

Yea, the backup camera and swc are nice features. You can do them with an iPad but they're nowhere near as 'plug and chug' as using a regular headunit is. 






Since you seem to have a lot of experience with the NEX units, maybe you can help me...

I bought the 8100nex direct from Pioneer as a refurb. Whenever I boot the headunit up it makes the sound like it's loading/ejecting a CD. It does this every time, regardless of if I disconnect the memory (yellow) wire or not. Is this normal?... I've never had a DD do this before that I can recall and I'm wondering if this is the nature of the refurb unit. If this isn't normal then it's going back tomorrow. 

I took a short video and posted it below. You may need to turn up your speakers more to hear it. (you can see my complaints about the ~13s bootup and mandatory warning screen accept)


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Mic10is said:


> you have to stop buying new Head units, Scott wont be able to keep up with copying you



Ah man!!! 
I can't afford his head unit habit. 









And this. Hate this. 
Hate it hate hate it!!!











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## schmiddr2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I hate all the DD options. How can a very fast tablet can be had for $500 and a DD with many limitations is $1000? I'll stick with my DD...only till I figure out how I will get a tablet to work in my dash the way I want. I did the phone --> DSP direct for a while, but having volume, track, and GPS all in one place is helpful. People say you can't have it all, but HU manufacturers are not even trying.


----------



## grinkeeper

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

love this log


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Heard the sound even thru my my iphone ,I would return that sucker.I prefer to buy to new rather than refurbs but that's just me.


----------



## naiku

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



schmiddr2 said:


> How can a very fast tablet can be had for $500 and a DD with many limitations is $1000? I'll stick with my DD...only till I figure out how I will get a tablet to work in my dash the way I want. I did the phone --> DSP direct for a while, but having volume, track, and GPS all in one place is helpful.


Hell, I have a $150 tablet in my dash that has been solid for about 3 years now, plenty fast enough for anything I would use it for in the car....music from a flash drive, streaming music, phone calls, GPS/traffic etc. One of the biggest reasons I went that route was because no DD offered everything I wanted and the OEM nav unit was ridiculously expensive for outdated technology. 

The only thing I would like for it to have would be a physical volume knob, but that is more for passengers since I have it wired to steering wheel controls anyway.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



strong*I*bumpin said:


> Heard the sound even thru my my iphone ,I would return that sucker.I prefer to buy to new rather than refurbs but that's just me.


Yea, a friend of mine who sells them told me they aren't supposed to do that. So it's going back. I bought it direct from Pioneer so I figured it'd be fine. SMH.

I'm gonna just sit tight with the p99 for the time being... considering the iPad option a bit heavier now.


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The saga continues... Someone asked why why why do head units suck so much now, or something like that? My hypothesis is simply Head unit companies don't have the volume of the booming mobile device industry, so value, quality and design suffers immensely by comparison. 

These units now are sourced boards and designs that change yearly with cheaper and cheaper components because it's the only thing holding these companies together. And they know we know it. It's just matter of time before this type of "head unit" is a thing of the past, I believe. If Alpine didn't have OEM full dash replacements for $3000 a pop, they'd be done. 

They've banked on being proprietary, "connecting" to the car etc, being flashy, etc etc. They do not care about noise, fan noise, DAC quality or quality of sound.. IMHO. After reading this, I don't see it, from any brand's current offerings with exception of the retiring 99RS and new Sony GS9. They obviously cater to a completely different buyer. And the Sony's are selling well I think.

THANK GOODNESS, the DSP market has come alive as has the tablet market. Erin my vote is path of least resistance for performance and do a tablet direct to DSP with a Director.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



schmiddr2 said:


> I hate all the DD options. How can a very fast tablet can be had for $500 and a DD with many limitations is $1000? I'll stick with my DD...only till I figure out how I will get a tablet to work in my dash the way I want. I did the phone --> DSP direct for a while, but having volume, track, and GPS all in one place is helpful. People say you can't have it all, but HU manufacturers are not even trying.



Navtv.com sells a part That if you do a tablet if your dash it will add steering wheel controls to a tablet 


https://navtv.com/products/NTV-KIT510/streamblue.html

It's pretty cool , it would make a tablet more like a DD . I almost went this route . They also make a backup cam interface for a tablet


Edit : you probably already knew this


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> The saga continues... Someone asked why why why do head units suck so much now, or something like that? My hypothesis is simply Head unit companies don't have the volume of the booming mobile device industry, so value, quality and design suffers immensely by comparison.
> 
> These units now are sourced boards and designs that change yearly with cheaper and cheaper components because it's the only thing holding these companies together. And they know we know it. It's just matter of time before this type of "head unit" is a thing of the past, I believe. If Alpine didn't have OEM full dash replacements for $3000 a pop, they'd be done.
> 
> They've banked on being proprietary, "connecting" to the car etc, being flashy, etc etc. They do not care about noise, fan noise, DAC quality or quality of sound.. IMHO. After reading this, I don't see it, from any brand's current offerings with exception of the retiring 99RS and new Sony GS9. They obviously cater to a completely different buyer. And the Sony's are selling well I think.
> 
> THANK GOODNESS, the DSP market has come alive as has the tablet market. Erin my vote is path of least resistance for performance and do a tablet direct to DSP with a Director.



That's totally true , my alpine rep told me that they have been focusing on restyle only and haven't rev anything in almost 4yrs now. which is obviously keeping them afloat , I asked him about a new high end pxa and he thought I was being funny .


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



oabeieo said:


> That's totally true , my alpine rep told me that they have been focusing on restyle only and haven't rev anything in almost 4yrs now. which is obviously keeping them afloat , I asked him about a new high end pxa and he thought I was being funny .


They're not interested in a smaller market of highly picky people.  I mean let's face it.. That's the SQ market. Alpine is probably done with it. They're branching into a new genre. Smart business, really. Reason the Sony GS9 release shocked me.


----------



## naiku

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



oabeieo said:


> Navtv.com sells a part That if you do a tablet if your dash it will add steering wheel controls to a tablet
> 
> 
> https://navtv.com/products/NTV-KIT510/streamblue.html
> 
> It's pretty cool , it would make a tablet more like a DD . I almost went this route . They also make a backup cam interface for a tablet


For $399 it better be pretty cool. I bought a Joycon for $50 that works fine with steering wheel controls, yes that module has Bluetooth etc. but still $399 is pretty nuts. Even more so considering that I likely only spend $400 on my entire tablet set up (that includes the parts I broke figuring it out).


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Babs said:


> They're not interested in a smaller market of highly picky people.  I mean let's face it.. That's the SQ market. Alpine is probably done with it. They're branching into a new genre. Smart business, really. Reason the Sony GS9 release shocked me.





naiku said:


> For $399 it better be pretty cool. I bought a Joycon for $50 that works fine with steering wheel controls, yes that module has Bluetooth etc. but still $399 is pretty nuts. Even more so considering that I likely only spend $400 on my entire tablet set up (that includes the parts I broke figuring it out).


^^ Exhibit A. LOL!!!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

This is why I stick with my factory hu right now. Much more dependable and functions decently.

When I get more time on my hands I'm researching a tablet install. The only issue I foresee is that I still want HD and FM radio.

I think I'm done with CDs now

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## naiku

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



I800C0LLECT said:


> When I get more time on my hands I'm researching a tablet install. The only issue I foresee is that I still want HD and FM radio.


FM radio is simple enough with a tablet, not sure about HD radio though. The only reason I don't currently have FM radio running is because I have been too lazy to fabricate a pigtail from my OEM antenna to the connection on the FM tuner I have. 

Sorry Erin, feel like I am cluttering up your thread a little.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



naiku said:


> For $399 it better be pretty cool. I bought a Joycon for $50 that works fine with steering wheel controls, yes that module has Bluetooth etc. but still $399 is pretty nuts. Even more so considering that I likely only spend $400 on my entire tablet set up (that includes the parts I broke figuring it out).


Lol  Broken parts suck indeed , Just looked up the joycon , didn't know about it .
That's pretty sweet. And yeah! Can't beat 50bucks!



X2 sorry Erin


----------



## Darkrider

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



naiku said:


> FM radio is simple enough with a tablet, not sure about HD radio though. The only reason I don't currently have FM radio running is because I have been too lazy to fabricate a pigtail from my OEM antenna to the connection on the FM tuner I have.
> 
> Sorry Erin, feel like I am cluttering up your thread a little.


No worse than any of the rest of us... :biggrinflip:

All this talk about head unit limitations is exactly why I have 2 head units in both my cars. Why no one has ever made an "SQ" focused DD unit still baffles me. Why can't a DD unit have a built in DSP at least as functional as the one in the P99RS? WHY?!?!? I mean the P99RS is single din...half the size of a DD unit....why is that so hard? :shame::furious::wacko::dead_horse::shrug:


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Darkrider said:


> No worse than any of the rest of us... :biggrinflip:
> 
> All this talk about head unit limitations is exactly why I have 2 head units in both my cars. Why no one has ever made an "SQ" focused DD unit still baffles me. Why can't a DD unit have a built in DSP at least as functional as the one in the P99RS? WHY?!?!? I mean the P99RS is single din...half the size of a DD unit....why is that so hard? :shame::furious::wacko::dead_horse::shrug:


I have wondered the same thing. The clairion will at least read 24-96 and send it to optical but it's a total turd otherwise, the 8200 is so hot and has everything except audio controls . It's like , we all know pioneer makes the hot tickets right now, why not stick another set rcas on the 8200 and have a pro mode rom that could be switched at boot up .... I remember the BHS decks had 3way active built in and on boot you could pick network mode , it's like it was almost cool. The 7800 flip out still has it but still runs p bus IIRC and an external nav from 2001 :/ I would love a p99 in double din and make it upgradeable so can have future features.... I think your right and almost everyone would have one . I know I would ....and for god sakes make optical/digital a standard on any deck that costs more than a grand 



••••Sorry again Erin •••


----------



## SSSnake

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



> considering the iPad option a bit heavier now.


This Venue 8 Pro Tablet | Dell is gong in the car now (along with the dock, 19.5V and 5V power supplies, GPS, 2 TB HD, Xonus USB sound card, steering wheel interface, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah). It will do the audio source and control, navigation, engine monitoring, gopro control, and a few other odds and ends. I am tired of listening to only the exhaust in the cadi.


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



Darkrider said:


> No worse than any of the rest of us... :biggrinflip:
> 
> 
> 
> All this talk about head unit limitations is exactly why I have 2 head units in both my cars. Why no one has ever made an "SQ" focused DD unit still baffles me. Why can't a DD unit have a built in DSP at least as functional as the one in the P99RS? WHY?!?!? I mean the P99RS is single din...half the size of a DD unit....why is that so hard? :shame::furious::wacko::dead_horse::shrug:



I believe because the 99RS and Sony GS9 are purpose-built board designs strictly for serious audio. They're not off-the-shelf components that could be interchangeable between a whole line up of head units. This significantly higher costs. The head unit companies don't want to build that level of head unit if they don't see them selling anywhere near the numbers of say a 4200NEX. They figure one or two "SQ" units in the market are plenty, and I believe the 99RS is now done with production. Might be wrong. Heck when you look inside the two mentioned units, yet folks even in here still debate if it's any better than a cheap-face 80PRS, it's not encouraging for that type of high-build product. Thus a really well built "buggy whip" in a market full of cars and no horses doesn't look appetizing to buggy whip makers. Supply and demand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JayinMI

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



naiku said:


> Hell, I have a $150 tablet in my dash that has been solid for about 3 years now, plenty fast enough for anything I would use it for in the car....music from a flash drive, streaming music, phone calls, GPS/traffic etc. One of the biggest reasons I went that route was because no DD offered everything I wanted and the OEM nav unit was ridiculously expensive for outdated technology.
> 
> The only thing I would like for it to have would be a physical volume knob, but that is more for passengers since I have it wired to steering wheel controls anyway.


I've been running my Galaxy Tab Pro 8.4 for about 2-3 years now. It works pretty well, but it has it's little glitches. I'm OK with it, but a normal customer would probably lose their minds, lol. I have it interfaced with my Bitone via an inexpensive Behringer UCA222 which gives me optical out. I use a JoyconEXR to retain my steering wheel controls, and I used and Arduino and an I2C Relay board to intercept my steering wheel controls from the car, pass everything except Vol up/vol dn/mode on to the Joycon, but I modded a DRC so that I can control the volume directly on the BitOne. I had it all working and then took it out to clean up my "prototype quality" job, and haven't gotten around to reinstalling it. 

I also had an AM/FM tuner, and my backup camera interfaced with it. But the tuner wasn't amazing, and the backup camera app I was using got updated, didn't work anymore and now isn't available anymore.

The only thing I wish I could do is make/answer calls via the tablet with my phone...but I have a Motorola Roadster2 BT speaker for that and it works reasonably well.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Helix Pro mk2 arrived at my dealer yesterday. Picked it up today. Will run analog in to the DSP and needed some RCAs from the DSP to the amps so picked up some sets of 1.5ft Stinger 9000 series just to keep the current trend. At this point the p99 is still in the car.


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

The first to get one. That's tight! Do you know if it uses the same UI as the Mk1?

Will you start a thread about it and share your results?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

well, I do know people have had it before me so I'm definitely not the first. I saw dudes posting theirs last week on facebook. 

as for the UI, yes, it's the same. there's a pretty lengthy thread about it on this forum but here's a link to the software if you want to take it for a test spin:
DSP PC-Tool Version 4 DSP PC-Tool, Audiotec Fischer GmbH | Innovative Car Audio

I don't plan on writing a review about it, given how similar it is to the previous version. at this point, there really aren't any _significant_ differences I can think of in software or capability ... this just seems like a moderate update and I assume they'll stop selling the mk1 and this will be the new go-to for the upper tier DSP (since they already have the 'regular' Helix DSP with 8 channel output). but it is one of my favorite DSPs available. and I never had any issues with my Helix Pro mk1 or my regular Helix DSP. These guys are doing a great job of putting out a really awesome DSP. The best part, imho, is they welcome feedback. I've emailed them a few times about incorporating various things and they've always been receptive and ultimately implemented those suggestions.


----------



## Babs

*8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Been playing with V4 in demo mode. It's pretty slick. Functionality is about the same which is good because of low learning curve and it's a darn good bit of software. Being sizeable for full screen is awesome. All-pass filters too looks promising. Audiotec-Fischer IMO has really figured it out. My one choice for DSP's. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

not car related but still wanted to share...


I picked up this sweet 22" Mcintosh Neon Curtis clock last week. I thought it would look awesome in the HT. Still need to find a place to hang it.


----------



## naiku

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

That clock is awesome.


----------



## seafish

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

NICE score...man that has GOT to go in the car somewhere...how about the underside of the trunk lid...LOL!!!


----------



## robolop

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*


----------



## oabeieo

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Have you had any tuning time? 
How do the 10s do? Are you liking it?


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to everyone! Hope you're having a good day with family or even binging a Netflix series by yourself!


----------



## Babs

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Merry Christmas Erin and family


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Merry Christmas to you too Erin.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



oabeieo said:


> Have you had any tuning time?
> How do the 10s do? Are you liking it?


Hey, man. I hadn't done any tuning other than with the p99 and it sounded quite nice. But the Helix has yet to be installed. Dragging my feet. Holidays keeping me busy.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

When I was a kid I used to love the movie "The Wizard". Some of you guys may remember it... basically it was an hour and a half long commercial for Nintendo. But it was awesome to me as a kid. One of the kids in the movie wanted to go to this place in California with a pair of big ol' Dinosaurs (no spoiler alerts as to why). This place is known as the Cabazon Dinosaurs. It's featured in other movies such as Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. 

Why does this matter and why is it in a car audio build log? Well, because the Cabazon 'saurs are also featured in the music video for my favorite song of all time: Tears For Fears' "_Everybody Wants to Rule the World_". 

This past October we took a trip to Disneyland in Anaheim. A few weeks before we left, I remembered the dinosaurs so I got online to see where they were. Turns out they were only about 1.5 hours out of the way (one-way) from LAX to Anaheim, so I convinced my wife we needed to make the detour out there. She was totally down for it so we made it happen. It was really cool to see in person and finally check it off my bucket list. 


Here's a screenshot of the music video with the dinosaurs in the background:






And here's a couple pictures I took when we got there:


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

When I hear dinosaur, I think Dino-Riders  


















Kelvin


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Nice, Erin! I grew up with those Cabazon Dino's! My grandparents lived in Palm Springs during the winter and up in Idyllwild during the summer (my grandmother actually owned the quaint and rustic Idyllwild Gift Shop) so as a kid we traveled the 10 FWY from L.A. to Palm Springs and/or Idyllwild quite often. Good times.

It has changed quite a bit since I was a kid (like most things!) and was even more barren than it looks in the TfF video! There really wasn't much else around the Cabazon Dinos back then besides the Hadley's Fruit Orchards Fruit Stand that serves yummy date palm milkshakes! Both were a welcome stop during a long, hot summer drive. I considered Cabazon to be a fairly good trek to the boonies back then. It really seemed like (and was) the only thing for miles and miles between L.A. and Palm Springs, at least in terms of "kid miles", LOL.

Did you happen to take the Palm Springs Aerial Tramway/Gondola while you were down there? It's not too far from Cabazon and definitely worth the time!

https://www.pstramway.com/

Some other great places to visit and experience in that area are Joshua Tree Nat'l Park and the Salton Sea...though I'm not sure that your wife or daughter would dig it...they're amazing natural environments but in an eeriely desolate and surreal way. Great for landscape photography!

There are also some really amazing *secret* native Indian caves and petroglyphs near Cabazon that I could have taken you to (blindfolded, of course)! They aren't listed on the map or in any publications in order to protect them. They are truly spectacular, tho'.

BTW, hope you had a Merry Christmas, and best wishes for the New Year!


----------



## forty5cal1911

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Absolutely stellar install Erin. Those 10's have got to be giving you some effortless midbass!

Now if you'll just get that Helix in there we can get a thread going on all pass filters.  My DSP.2 is hopefully going in today.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



bbfoto said:


> Did you happen to take the Palm Springs Aerial Tramway/Gondola while you were down there? It's not too far from Cabazon and definitely worth the time!


We didn't, but I have before. My dad used to travel to Palm Springs when I was in my early teens and my mom and I went with him a couple times. We did the tram thing once... also toured Liberace's house. 

We hit the Cabazon dinosaurs as a quick trip. We landed around 11am, then drove up to Griffith Park Observatory and then down to the Carousel where Walt initially dreamt up the idea for Disneyland (which was my wife's bucket list item). Then on to the dinosaurs. 

Thing about the Dinosaurs now compared to pictures from "back in the day" is there's definitely more stuff next to it. There was a Burger King right in front along with some other gas station or restaurant. Was kind of a bummer, but oh well. Also, now there's the touristy part where they've added a walk through with various dinosaur statues and all that. Pretty much a must-pay for if you want to go inside the T-Rex. Inside the Brontosaur is another gift ship. We spent a little bit of change but it was worth it. 

I'll post a couple more pictures later if anyone wants to join in the nostalgia with me.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



forty5cal1911 said:


> Absolutely stellar install Erin. Those 10's have got to be giving you some effortless midbass!
> 
> Now if you'll just get that Helix in there we can get a thread going on all pass filters.  My DSP.2 is hopefully going in today.


Man, I definitely dig 'em! 

I hope to get the dsp installed this weekend... and hopefully get the trunk LED lighting done sometime soon so I can go back to Steve's and get the plexi cover finished.


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



subwoofery said:


> When I hear dinosaur, I think Dino-Riders
> 
> Kelvin


Oh, I definitely remember these. 
I still remember the theme song and the commercials. I also remember they were expensive. Even as a five year old and having no sense of money, I remember not being to get some of the ones I wanted with my birthday money because they were just so dang expensive!


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

Yeah, as a kid, for me it was battles between the Dino-Riders and Rock'em Sock'em Robots, haha. Nostalgia. Man, this build log is all over 'da place, LOL!


----------



## ErinH

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I finally got around to replacing the blue diffused LEDs I put in the mc amp with white ones. The blue looked washed out and literally hurt your eyes from far away. Up close (ie; head in the trunk) it was fine but otherwise the letters/numbers on the meters were just washed out.* and pictures of the amp looked crazy because of it.* So, yea, I swapped the blue diffused LEDs for regular white ones. 







This is what I mean when I say the blue LEDs made the meters looked washed out. In person the blue *popped* but the text was nearly illegible because of the eye strain and getting a good picture of them was next to impossible. 





This is how they look now. I definitely like them more now.


----------



## Jheitt142

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*

I find any form of bright blue lighting does that. I don't know why but our eyes just don't like it 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

*Re: 8th Gen Honda Civic Sedan v.∞: My full disclosure build and tune log*



street.terror said:


> I find any form of bright blue lighting does that. I don't know why but our eyes just don't like it


Agreed. My girlfriend's 2012 Hyundai Santa Fe AWD has basically the same blue interior lighting for everything just like what Erin's photos show above, and the results are exactly as Erin describes. I'm not a fan.

Those white LEDs should be much better, Erin.


----------



## ErinH

Yea, something about blue just tends to look washed out. Not sure of the science behind it but I'm glad to see it's not just me. 

I also am in the process of modding the mpm4000 meters again. Pulling the blue LEDs I used and swapping them with the white ones. Sucky thing is, I had two more white LEDs left and they aren't the same shade. I ordered a pack of 10 and the remaining two (since each amp meter used 4 LEDs each) don't match. 

So I ordered some new ones today. Hopefully will get that modded up. Not even sure it'll go back in the car but it'll definitely be a nice upgrade should I sell it to my buddy who already called dibs.


----------



## ErinH

The trunk is now done! I drove to Steve's shop to finish it up earlier today. He used vinyl that was used on the kicks, with some aluminum trim that matches with the amp's trim. I am super stoked on how well it turned out!


Here's a few pictures:

















Here's a few videos


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Beautiful 

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## josby

ErinH said:


>


Gahhhhhhh, so jealous. I remember drooling over the MC4000M in Car Stereo Review back when I couldn't even imagine being able to afford one, like looking at pictures of a Ferrari


----------



## bbfoto

The Sweetness!


----------



## ErinH

josby said:


> Gahhhhhhh, so jealous. I remember drooling over the MC4000M in Car Stereo Review back when I couldn't even imagine being able to afford one, like looking at pictures of a Ferrari


Dude, I've been after one of these for about 8 years... maybe longer. Just could never afford one until this one popped up and the seller made a partial trade/cash with me. I'm stoked on it!


----------



## ErinH

AVIDEDTR said:


> Beautiful
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk





bbfoto said:


> The Sweetness!


Thanks, dudes!


----------



## 1FinalInstall

Looks AMAZING Erin!


----------



## BigAl205

It's an art piece for sure


----------



## t3sn4f2

Looks really good. The trim pattern give it a freaky 3D deep look. Almost like if there was a huge full size MAC home amp in there.


----------



## lashlee

Sweeeeeeet!!


----------



## cmusic

Very nice!!! It's similar to what I have planned for the amp rack in my car, right down to the multi colored LEDs.


----------



## Babs

Could it be, the Civic is at it's final or at least super long-term installation? If so, it looks like a seriously good stopping point. The type of installation that says you've arrived.  Man everything about this current setup is awesome. I cannot wait to sit in there and sample the goodness. Did Steve have any thoughts or tweaks on your tune?


----------



## captainobvious

Looks fantastic Erin! I know you must be pretty darn happy right now. 

Congrats!

I'm looking very much forward to hearing your car again.


----------



## ErinH

Babs said:


> Could it be, the Civic is at it's final or at least super long-term installation? If so, it looks like a seriously good stopping point. The type of installation that says you've arrived.  Man everything about this current setup is awesome. I cannot wait to sit in there and sample the goodness. Did Steve have any thoughts or tweaks on your tune?


Yea, I think this is really the final touches of the system at this point. After all this work, I don't foresee me gutting any of it to re-do it. Steve also helped me start to clean up the pillars a bit. He had a pretty solid idea on how to wrap the bottom of them better and made a little bracket type piece to pull the cloth over. This may be the point where the install aspect finally rides off in to the sunset. Still a few more things to do first, though. I still have to decide what headunit I want to rock. 

I took the car over there with a cobbled tune and of course Steve wanted to hear his kick build creation. I told him to not worry about the tune but he's OCD so we wound up sitting in there for nearly 2 hours with him playing with stuff. Sharing ideas, etc. I need to work on it more. But it'll be ready for the NC meet for sure. Maybe even ready in time for FreezeFest next month and if so, I might compete. I'll probably head back to his "batcave" soon for some more tuning time after I put some of my tuning in to it. 



captainobvious said:


> Looks fantastic Erin! I know you must be pretty darn happy right now.
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> I'm looking very much forward to hearing your car again.


Thanks! I'm really happy with it, man. Looking forward to seeing and hanging out with you at Jason's meet in a few months!


----------



## ErinH

cmusic said:


> Very nice!!! It's similar to what I have planned for the amp rack in my car, right down to the multi colored LEDs.





lashlee said:


> Sweeeeeeet!!





BigAl205 said:


> It's an art piece for sure





1FinalInstall said:


> Looks AMAZING Erin!


Thanks, guys! I'm looking forward to being able to show it off at a show or meet sometime soon.


----------



## ErinH

t3sn4f2 said:


> Looks really good. The trim pattern give it a freaky 3D deep look. Almost like if there was a huge full size MAC home amp in there.


You know, I see it now that you say that! Pretty cool way of looking at it!


----------



## imjustjason

ErinH said:


>


Love the musical selection in this vid.

I also like that the glass on the amp catches the light and it looks like it lights up too. Good job man, hope it makes you happy for a long time.


----------



## ErinH

imjustjason said:


> Love the musical selection in this vid.


Well, so do I! Thanks for the disc! 





imjustjason said:


> I also like that the glass on the amp catches the light and it looks like it lights up too. Good job man, hope it makes you happy for a long time.


IKR?! I didn't notice that until I looked at some of the pictures. It has that edge-lit plexi look to it. Totally not intentional but it looks sweet!


----------



## ErinH

In keeping with the theme of redoing the amp's meters from blue LED to white LED, I did the same upgrade to the single din mpm4000 meters today. As with the amp, the white LEDs look much better.


----------



## bbfoto

^Yay! You can "read" them again.  Looks good, man. Will these find their way back into the Civic?


----------



## ErinH

Still not sure. The 8100nex I purchased and had to send back for repair is returning to me tomorrow. Gotta make up my mind as to which one I'll keep. The 8100 does all the things I want. But the p99/mc combo matches the theme of the install with the amp in the back. So there's that. Lol.


----------



## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> Still not sure. The 8100nex I purchased and had to send back for repair is returning to me tomorrow. Gotta make up my mind as to which one I'll keep. The 8100 does all the things I want. But the p99/mc combo matches the theme of the install with the amp in the back. So there's that. Lol.


I hear ya! It's a constant dilemma with me as well. There's no perfect HU. Good luck.


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> I hear ya! It's a constant dilemma with me as well. There's no perfect HU. Good luck.


exactly. that about sums it up! :laugh:


----------



## Babs

ErinH said:


> Still not sure. The 8100nex I purchased and had to send back for repair is returning to me tomorrow. Gotta make up my mind as to which one I'll keep. The 8100 does all the things I want. But the p99/mc combo matches the theme of the install with the amp in the back. So there's that. Lol.



Hmm. That's a tough choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bbfoto

Erin, I forgot to mention...if you sent that 8100NEX in for _repair_ and not replacement, make sure to test all of the functions as soon as you get it back. Pioneer is notoriously horrible for both their in- and out-of-warranty service.  IIRC I think you said that you bought a refurbished unit?...hopefully from an Authorized Dealer. Good luck, mang.


_Someday._...we'll be able to 3D Print the exact head unit that we want! Unfortunately we're not there yet.


----------



## ErinH

For sure man. I'll run it through its paces. I actually bought the unit directly from pioneer. they said they were going to send me a replacement. Guess I'll see when it shows up today.


----------



## ErinH

Yep! Gonna keep the p99. Got it paired up with the mc meters and it looks awesome!













And a video...


----------



## SQram

I've been in this hobby for over 20 years now, and that is by far the sexiest H/U install I've seen, well done sir.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

You're such an 80's Boi, LOL! (video) 

I have to say that looks _really_ nice. And since you have the Mc in the boot it all ties together. :thumbsup:

Just buy some metalized mylar "chrome" pinstriping or "brushed aluminum" tape and put some vertical stripes on the edges of the P99 to match the L&R edges of the McMeters. 

You can use fine steel wool, 600-1000 grit wet sandpaper, or emery cloth to put a light "brushed aluminum" look on the shiny chrome tape.











Silver Chrome Tape Vinyl 1/8" x 50 feet, Free Shipping in USA, Pin Stripes | eBay

https://www.amazon.com/CS-Hyde-Metalized-Polyester-Adhesive/dp/B003HKRFB2


Oh, did you ever come up with grills to protect the *Illusion C10*'s?

.


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

Now that is most definitely dope,sexy as heck!


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

Refresh my memory,what group/track you're playing.I'm a big '80's pop fan boy.


----------



## bbfoto

strong*I*bumpin said:


> Refresh my memory,what group/track you're playing.I'm a big '80's pop fan boy.



You CAN'T be an 80's pop fan boy if you don't know who that is right off the bat! 

SoundHound or Shazam is your friend in these instances.


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

bbfoto said:


> You CAN'T be an 80's pop fan boy if you don't know who that is right off the bat!
> 
> SoundHound or Shazam is your friend in these instances.


Depeche Mode!


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

Electronic drums and synthesizers,classic '80's sound.


----------



## diy.phil

great music!!
and
man... that meter is so nice!!


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> You're such an 80's Boi, LOL! (video)
> 
> I have to say that looks _really_ nice. And since you have the Mc in the boot it all ties together. :thumbsup:
> 
> Just buy some metalized mylar "chrome" pinstriping or "brushed aluminum" tape and put some vertical stripes on the edges of the P99 to match the L&R edges of the McMeters.
> Oh, did you ever come up with grills to protect the Illusion C10's?


Good idea! I was thinking of a few different ways to trim it out but that's an idea I may wind up going with. 

No covers yet. In time... 










SQram said:


> I've been in this hobby for over 20 years now, and that is by far the sexiest H/U install I've seen, well done sir.





strong*I*bumpin said:


> Now that is most definitely dope,sexy as heck!





diy.phil said:


> great music!!
> and
> man... that meter is so nice!!


Thanks, guys! I appreciate it. I worry sometimes my posts of this stuff comes off as bragging, which is certainly not the intent. It's just excitement. 


And, yep... Depeche Mode! There's been a little bit of talk about them already in this thread. Awesome music for sure. Been spinning them again a lot lately along with Daft Punk's _Random Access Memories_. Both great albums.


----------



## ErinH

I spent some time laying down a tune on this the other day and have to say I'm really happy with how it sounds. The system is revealing differences in recordings better than it ever has (which is both good and bad). I'm finding it hard to exit the car once I get to my destination and I've not had that feeling in over a year.


----------



## ErinH

Getting closer to having this thing complete. I wired up my 45 amp Iota power supply that is installed in the car. Same thing as last year but since it's a new install, I had to move the supply. So now when I go to a show or sit in the garage tuning all I have to do is plug an extension cord in to an outlet and the car and I'm set. No futzing with getting the power supply out of the car and having to hook up the leads to the battery.. And most notably, even if it's raining I can be plugged in without having to worry about the power supply getting wet/damaged. 


I posted the plug when I bought it but they no longer make the same one. This looks like a suitable replacement, though:
http://amzn.to/2jpeZTm


----------



## bbfoto

Nice, Erin. The trunk looks killer. Love that the power supply/charger is built in. I have the same setup on all of my Photo Lighting & Equipment trucks, and on one of my personal vehicles as well. Great setup.

Just noticed in that 2nd to last pic...it looks like you could use some New Tires, mate! And I recently started a "Quiet Tires" thread.


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> Just noticed in that 2nd to last pic...it looks like you could use some New Tires, mate! And I recently started a "Quiet Tires" thread.


I wondered how long it would be until someone said something about that. Happened sooner than I expected! Lol. 

Yea, new tires are in the forecast. I'll likely buy the same ones I have now. Super quiet and have lasted a good while. I'll check out that thread though and throw in my $0.02 if it's pertinent.


----------



## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> I wondered how long it would be until someone said something about that. Happened sooner than I expected! Lol.
> 
> Yea, new tires are in the forecast. I'll likely buy the same ones I have now. Super quiet and have lasted a good while. I'll check out that thread though and throw in my $0.02 if it's pertinent.


Cool. Keep the wife and daughter safe. We had some crazy heavy rain on a trip up the West coast's HWY 1 to Monterey/Carmel right after my girlfriend and I got new tires put on her car...SOOO glad because her tires looked just about like yours do now and we would've been in trouble for sure.

And Yeah, if you've been happy with your current tires please post which ones they are in my _Quiet Tire_ thread so others might benefit.


On another note, since your such an 80's fan I thought that I'd point you to a few tracks from a fairly obscure 80's band. Maybe listen to track 14 first...

Area - White Canvas New Hope (1986)

Not expecting you to dig it, but you *might* remember them...or not, IDK. They're not really SQ tracks...they were originally released on cassette!...but could be interesting.

If you want to hear the "new" Depeche Mode, check out the 2016 _Chrom - Peak & Decay (Deluxe Edition 2CD)_ release. No one can replace DP, but these tracks are clean and will give your subs a workout for sure.

Anyway...

It's time to get some grills on those big, round, expensive footrests you have in the Civic!

.


----------



## funkalicious

Just finished all 67 pages. Very, very impressive. Thanks for seeing this through and sharing so much valuable information and insight on your procedures, methodologies, rationale and equipment choices. Your commitment to sharing your knowledge and raising the level of discourse on this forum do not, at least by me, go unnoticed or unappreciated. Much props to you and congrats on putting together such an awesome system!


----------



## bbfoto

^ x1000!


----------



## ErinH

funkalicious said:


> Just finished all 67 pages. Very, very impressive. Thanks for seeing this through and sharing so much valuable information and insight on your procedures, methodologies, rationale and equipment choices. Your commitment to sharing your knowledge and raising the level of discourse on this forum do not, at least by me, go unnoticed or unappreciated. Much props to you and congrats on putting together such an awesome system!





bbfoto said:


> ^ x1000!


Thanks, fellas. Glad it at least makes for an entertaining read.


----------



## ErinH

Alright, so let me set the stage here. I have the LX model of the civic which doesn't come with steering wheel audio controls (hereon referred to as SWAC). Around 2008-2009 I decided to DIY the addition of the SWAC based on something I saw on another forum. I ordered the SWAC parts which included the buttons/harness and I went ahead and ordered a new clockspring (just in case I damaged mine in the process). 

_*** 
For those who don't know, your steering wheel buttons are wired to a harness that feeds in to the clockspring (the clockspring is what enables you to turn your steering wheel without the wiring getting tangled up. If you rode BMX, think of the GYRO ). There's a harness on the backside of the clockspring that then feeds in to the rest of the car. In this case, the audio controls go to the headunit. So, it kind of looks like this:
Steering Wheel buttons harness --> Clockspring --> Harness --> Radio
***_

To complete the DIY I had to add (2) pins to each harness that fed into/out of the clockspring. I completed the DIY and used the buttons for a maybe a few months until I kept having issues with the Axxess piece I was using where it wouldn't work right most of the time. I wound up getting frustrated and not using them anymore. 

I decided to tackle the job again last week, this time using the iDataLink Maestro SW (which I highly recommend). But still I kept having intermittent issues. I measured the resistance on the backside of the clockspring (the side that feeds in to the Maestro) and couldn't get reliable readings. I took the airbag out to do some testing at the harness itself. I measured the resistance values of the buttons directly at the harness and wrote them down (just in case anyone is ever in need of knowing). These are the _approximate_ values when the button is pressed:

Static (no buttons pressed): 10.04k ohms
Mode: 3.7k ohms (I'll have to double check this one)
Channel +: 2.7k ohms
Channel -: 770 ohms
Volume +: 370 ohms
Volume -: 101 ohms

The fact that I was able to get reliable readings at the harness indicated something was awry from the point where the harness/clockspring/harness interface was. So then I did a continuity check on the pinouts I was using through the clockspring's harness connectors. All was good... I was using the correct pins. Since I got reliable readings and the continuity check worked out fine I reconnected the harness and the audio buttons worked find (airbag was still out of the car). Okay... This told me I most likely had a bad connection before. I looked at the buttons harness a bit more and found that one of the wires was nearly broken in two. It was getting pinched when the airbag was put back in place. So, I pulled the steering wheel out and took it all apart. I replaced that wire and re-pinned the audio connection buttons harness for good measure. Put the car back together and now everything works just fine. Talk about long overdue! 


Here's a few pictures of the fun:

Airbag out:




Airbag:




Yellow circle is where my problems were. The white harness is the harness that connects the SWAC to the Clockspring. When the airbag was in it was pinching one of the audio control wires which caused the resistance values to fluctuate, thus giving me all sorts of headaches.





Off comes the steering wheel:





And apart she is taken:





Trouble harness up close:





And back together. Buttons that work!









Anyway, I hope all this somehow helps someone in the future. I don't expect anyone else to do this DIY but most cars are pretty much the same in this regard so it might be useful information for someone with a different make/model. Or if you want to alter your steering wheel buttons, say, with a different car's buttons and use the Maestro piece to flash it.


----------



## ErinH

Also, to those of you who may want to know in the future...

I wasn't sure which option for headunit to use with the Maestro SW when I flashed the unit. I posted the question here. But to save you some trouble, here's my follow up to that post...





ErinH said:


> I asked this question on the idatalink forum and was given this reply:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Erin,
> The radio in question was designed in 2009 so the radio protocol should be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I wound up using the DEH-80PRS as the headunit and it worked fine as well. Pioneer doesn't seem to change their resistance values much, unless you have a newer headunit with fancy features. So that would explain why the "2009 and newer without Bluetooth" option would work as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## optimaprime

Wow that's cool man. I was looking at one of the mysterio pieces for my truck. Did the air bag come out easy ? Or did you look way when popped her out


----------



## ErinH

The airbag has only two torx bits holding it in place. So it was easy to remove. I just disconnected the battery for a few minutes before removing it and didn't reinstall the airbag without the battery disconnected.

I freely admit, though, anytime I touch anything having to do with the airbag, I try to hang my body as far away from the car as I possibly can when I first start the car back up after reconnecting the battery. You know... just in case. LOL


----------



## BMW Alpina

ErinH said:


> The airbag has only two torx bits holding it in place. So it was easy to remove. I just disconnected the battery for a few minutes before removing it and didn't reinstall the airbag without the battery disconnected.
> 
> I freely admit, though, anytime I touch anything having to do with the airbag, I try to hang my body as far away from the car as I possibly can when I first start the car back up after reconnecting the battery. You know... just in case. LOL


Hi Erin,
Did you replace the two torx bolt that hold the airbag with new one?
on my Honda Fit service manual, it say that we have to replace the airbag bolts with a new one each time we took them out.

and by the way,
your McIntosh meter and Pioneer head unit looks awesome 

I follow your post when you have the Sony with the Denon meter,
and I like the current McIntosh/Pioneer style much better...

I almost bought a used Denon meter from Japan to pair with the Sony RSX-GS9
but after seeing your picture, I decide not to buy the Denon meter
but just going to put triple Defi Meter Gauge below or above my Sony RSX-GS9...

Thank You for all the nice pictures that you post here


----------



## ErinH

BMW Alpina said:


> Hi Erin,
> Did you replace the two torx bolt that hold the airbag with new one?
> on my Honda Fit service manual, it say that we have to replace the airbag bolts with a new one each time we took them out.
> 
> and by the way,
> your McIntosh meter and Pioneer head unit looks awesome
> 
> I follow your post when you have the Sony with the Denon meter,
> and I like the current McIntosh/Pioneer style much better...
> 
> I almost bought a used Denon meter from Japan to pair with the Sony RSX-GS9
> but after seeing your picture, I decide not to buy the Denon meter
> but just going to put triple Defi Meter Gauge below or above my Sony RSX-GS9...
> 
> Thank You for all the nice pictures that you post here


Nope, I re-use the bolts every time. The bolts in my car for the airbag are just regular ol' bolts, with a torx head. They screw in to metal fasteners on the airbag to hold it in place. Guess the Fit must be a different design? 

Thanks for the feedback!


----------



## BMW Alpina

ErinH said:


> Nope, I re-use the bolts every time. The bolts in my car for the airbag are just regular ol' bolts, with a torx head. They screw in to metal fasteners on the airbag to hold it in place. Guess the Fit must be a different design?
> 
> Thanks for the feedback!


Actually I am pretty sure the 2006 Civic LX and the 2013 Honda Fit have the same steering wheel and airbag design,

I just check the part diagram at Bernardi Honda Parts and see the airbag bolt part number for yours and mine 
and they are exactly the same part#
Honda BOLT, HEX. (6X23) Part# 90134-S6A-A80 

I think perhaps because this bolt came with some kind of loctite dry compound at it's thread that is one time use...

This is how my steering wheel airbag and button looks like, 
I am pretty sure they are the same because the J's racing steering wheel 
that I use right now, is compatible for both your generation Civic and my Honda Fit.
This is how my steering wheel airbag and button looks like, it is the same like yours right?
never mind the paddle shifter, those are just aftermarket extension of the stock paddle shifter button


----------



## ErinH

I'll look at the service manual when I get home to see what it says.


----------



## Salami

So now that you are selling the P99 what is going to replace it??????????


----------



## ErinH

Short answer: The Sony GS9. 

Long answer: Months back when I A/B'd the P99 and the Sony I said the Sony had a larger soundstage and seemed more separated in regards to layers/instruments within the stage. But I wanted a simple system with the headunit feeding the mc amp directly. Then I got the Helix because I missed/needed some of it's features to make the tune better (ie; parametric and shelf filters... I literally have one band of eq on my midrange where I used to have 5). 

Talking to Steve (captainobvious), he said he and some friends did some comparisons themselves. Their results reflected mine. Since I no longer needed the P99's internal DSP he let me borrow the Sony to see if I could 'live' with the GUI from day to day. When I A/B'd it again with the P99 I noticed the same things again as far as sound quality goes. Depending on track the differences can be stark or non-existent, but they are still there in the majority of my musical library. 

With some of the hi-res tracks I tried I was blown away at how freaking large the stage was. I listened to a track of one of The Cars' albums... There's an instrument that I feel like I can reach out and touch with my left hand right at about left-center. The singer is back in the soundstage at the center. On the far right waaaaay back in the corner there's other sounds. Sounds like the stage from front to back is 40 feet deep. It's crazy. Soundstage is always something I find hard to get in a car. Tonality is fairly easy to get 'acceptable' (maybe not dead on 'right') and much more subjective anyway but having a soundstage that really gets outside of the boundaries of the car is something I very, very rarely find when I demo cars. So since the Sony helps with that, it's the more appropriate choice of gear for me.

As for the GUI of the GS9, I can tolerate it. Wish it were better but it's livable. I was using the p99 with my iphone, controlling the iphone directly. So I'd be no worse off with the Sony. Plus, I love the Sony's volume taper and look. So, the Sony is currently the headunit of choice. At least until someone else makes something that I like more.


----------



## BMW Alpina

ErinH said:


> Short answer: The Sony GS9.
> 
> Long answer: Months back when I A/B'd the P99 and the Sony I said the Sony had a larger soundstage and seemed more separated in regards to layers/instruments within the stage. But I wanted a simple system with the headunit feeding the mc amp directly. Then I got the Helix because I missed/needed some of it's features to make the tune better (ie; parametric and shelf filters... I literally have one band of eq on my midrange where I used to have 5).
> 
> Talking to Steve (captainobvious), he said he and some friends did some comparisons themselves. Their results reflected mine. Since I no longer needed the P99's internal DSP he let me borrow the Sony to see if I could 'live' with the GUI from day to day. When I A/B'd it again with the P99 I noticed the same things again as far as sound quality goes. Depending on track the differences can be stark or non-existent, but they are still there in the majority of my musical library.
> 
> With some of the hi-res tracks I tried I was blown away at how freaking large the stage was. I listened to a track of one of The Cars' albums... There's an instrument that I feel like I can reach out and touch with my left hand right at about left-center. The singer is back in the soundstage at the center. On the far right waaaaay back in the corner there's other sounds. Sounds like the stage from front to back is 40 feet deep. It's crazy. Soundstage is always something I find hard to get in a car. Tonality is fairly easy to get 'acceptable' (maybe not dead on 'right') and much more subjective anyway but having a soundstage that really gets outside of the boundaries of the car is something I very, very rarely find when I demo cars. So since the Sony helps with that, it's the more appropriate choice of gear for me.
> 
> As for the GUI of the GS9, I can tolerate it. Wish it were better but it's livable. I was using the p99 with my iphone, controlling the iphone directly. So I'd be no worse off with the Sony. Plus, I love the Sony's volume taper and look. So, the Sony is currently the headunit of choice. At least until someone else makes something that I like more.


Hi Erin,
So if I get this correctly,
you still going to use the Helix DSP right with the Sony RSX-GS9 right?
Are you going to feed the Helix using the optical digital connection 
or using the analog connection?

oh and are you still plan to use the Denon meter with the Sony or with the McIntosh meter?

Thanks


----------



## ErinH

Sony GS9 to Helix DSP Pro MKII via analog. 

Still got the Mc meters. I think it looks pretty good, personally.


----------



## ErinH

Oh, and to answer your reply previously about the torx bolts for the airbag: you were right. I looked it up in the service manual and it says to discard those bolts once they've been removed and to use new bolts when replacing them. Not sure why it matters but I went ahead and ordered replacements just for peace of mind. Thanks for asking the question.


----------



## quality_sound

ErinH said:


> Sony GS9 to Helix DSP Pro MKII via analog.
> 
> Still got the Mc meters. I think it looks pretty good, personally.


It does look good. 



ErinH said:


> Oh, and to answer your reply previously about the torx bolts for the airbag: you were right. I looked it up in the service manual and it says to discard those bolts once they've been removed and to use new bolts when replacing them. Not sure why it matters but I went ahead and ordered replacements just for peace of mind. Thanks for asking the question.


They're stretch bolts.


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

I saw Steve Meade installed one of these in his Tahoe,nice unit.


----------



## ErinH

quality_sound said:


> They're stretch bolts.


ahhh... First time I've heard that term. But good to know. 




strong*I*bumpin said:


> I saw Steve Meade installed one of these in his Tahoe,nice unit.


uh oh... lol.


----------



## captainobvious

It does look good, yes. I liked the reflective glass like surface of the P99 better as a match for the mac glass face meters but it looks good in either case. And it will definitely sound better  Can't wait to hear it in NC in a few months my friend!


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> It does look good, yes. I liked the reflective glass like surface of the P99 better as a match for the mac glass face meters but it looks good in either case. And it will definitely sound better  Can't wait to hear it in NC in a few months my friend!


I agree completely. The p99 definitely matched better but the Sony/Mc combo doesn't look bad, either. 

See you in a few months! Woot!


----------



## jowens500

If you knew someone crafty enough to make new aluminum ends for the McIntosh unit that came down to, and across the bottom of the Sony, that would be awesome.


----------



## SkizeR

ErinH said:


> Sony GS9 to Helix DSP Pro MKII via analog.


any reason why your not going with digital out? i know the sony has a great dac, but its still one less conversion in the signal chain.


----------



## benny z

why not keep the p99 and run the sony into its aux-in?



SkizeR said:


> any reason why your not going with digital out? i know the sony has a great dac, but its still one less conversion in the signal chain.


you don't get all the rezes over optical.


----------



## Kazuhiro

Doesn't the unit have an i2s port for dsd


----------



## Babs

SkizeR said:


> any reason why your not going with digital out? i know the sony has a great dac, but its still one less conversion in the signal chain.


It was that topic we were talking about maybe.. The consensus being if the front-end DAC is superb with the resolution of media it's working with, then use it.. The DSP's ADC won't hurt a thing if it's getting an excellent quality and strong signal in front of it. I used to think, less conversions the better always.. Which theoretically without much further investigation, it looks good on paper. But not so much after looking a bit further into it, and testing it.. Hearing the direct toslink method I was employing being beaten easily by a good 99RS head unit feeding analog into the Helix. 

But also, in the case of the Sony, I think if there's anything DSD, it can only output analog, due to DSD constraints, and toslink is only good to 96khz or something like that. Never was much of a fan of toslink.. It needs an update as a format I think, when USB and HDMI rival it over copper.

Coincidentally the subject is afoot.. Subterfuse had this to say about it in another thread:



subterFUSE said:


> No. It's an incorrect assumption.
> 
> In all likelihood, a digital to digital transfer would degrade more due to jitter. Plus, optical digital cables are very flaky. They are considered the worst type of digital connection. Home audiophiles rarely use optical. Coax digital is greatly preferred.
> 
> The DAC on both devices are very, very good. The Sony DAC is probably better, but the difference would be marginal.
> 
> A number of top competitors on the SQ Competition circuit will all agree. Analog is the way to use the Sony GS9. It just sounds better. Talk to the people running that deck. Trust me, the majority of them (if not all) will be going analog.
> 
> This idea that digital is always best is simply not true and needs to be questioned.
> 
> Perfect example, look at the Audison Bit One and the amps with the AV Bit Input. So many fanboys are convinced that because the signal stays digital all the way to the amp that this will magically make the sound better. But the truth is those amps don't sound as good compared to other amps with analog inputs. Audison also ran into problems with jitter on the optical input of the Bit One and they had to release a Sample Frequency Converter device to go in front of the DSP to solve the problem.
> 
> Bottom line, there are factors that are so much more critical than avoiding an extra DAC/ADC cycle.
> 
> If sound quality is REALLY important to you, then get the op amps upgraded on the DSP and your amps. Upgrade the rail caps and get the bias adjusted. These upgrades make noticeable improvements that far outweigh DAC use.
> 
> If you still can't bring yourself to shake the "digital is always best" mentality, then I would suggest waiting for the new HEC USB sound card module for the Helix Pro and Pro MK2. It will feature an asynchronous sound card that will prevent jitter. This would be a huge savings over the Sony GS9 (which quite frankly is a waste of money if going digital).
> 
> The HEC module would be all digital, direct from the media player over USB, with an asynchronous DAC inside the DSP. No optical cable. No chain of digital devices converting sample rates or causing jitter.


----------



## oabeieo

BMW Alpina said:


> Actually I am pretty sure the 2006 Civic LX and the 2013 Honda Fit have the same steering wheel and airbag design,
> 
> I just check the part diagram at Bernardi Honda Parts and see the airbag bolt part number for yours and mine
> and they are exactly the same part#
> Honda BOLT, HEX. (6X23) Part# 90134-S6A-A80
> 
> I think perhaps because this bolt came with some kind of loctite dry compound at it's thread that is one time use...
> 
> This is how my steering wheel airbag and button looks like,
> I am pretty sure they are the same because the J's racing steering wheel
> that I use right now, is compatible for both your generation Civic and my Honda Fit.
> This is how my steering wheel airbag and button looks like, it is the same like yours right?
> never mind the paddle shifter, those are just aftermarket extension of the stock paddle shifter button


They are, I have a civic si wheel in my fit with retro buttons and paddle shift buttons added. Paddle shift buttons are now my volume buttons and the normal vol down is mute and vol up is answer 

My clock spring didn't need to be swapped I added pins from a metra harness to stick in the plug and and rewired the wheel.


----------



## oabeieo

Erin, it's lookin nice man.



Hey , man thanks for lookin that up. I just got new ones too. Wouldn't want to find out the hard way  



ErinH said:


> Oh, and to answer your reply previously about the torx bolts for the airbag: you were right. I looked it up in the service manual and it says to discard those bolts once they've been removed and to use new bolts when replacing them. Not sure why it matters but I went ahead and ordered replacements just for peace of mind. Thanks for asking the question.


----------



## bbfoto

Babs said:


> It was that topic we were talking about maybe.. The consensus being if the front-end DAC is superb with the resolution of media it's working with, then use it.. The DSP's ADC won't hurt a thing if it's getting an excellent quality and strong signal in front of it. I used to think, less conversions the better always.. Which theoretically without much further investigation, it looks good on paper. But not so much after looking a bit further into it, and testing it.. Hearing the direct toslink method I was employing being beaten easily by a good 99RS head unit feeding analog into the Helix.
> 
> But also, in the case of the Sony, I think if there's anything DSD, it can only output analog, due to DSD constraints, and toslink is only good to 96khz or something like that. Never was much of a fan of toslink.. It needs an update as a format I think, when USB and HDMI rival it over copper.
> 
> Coincidentally the subject is afoot.. Subterfuse had this to say about it in another thread:


Scott et al.

The only thing that I will add regarding digital over USB (say from files on your computer played through iTunes or JRiver and sent out via the USB port to a USB DAC, or to the new Helix HEX USB module) is that AFAIK the USB bus does not support ERROR CORRECTION. So if for some reason the source device creates errors in the packets of data, or the data itself has errors (your source music file), those errors will be passed on to the DAC via the USB, which could manifest themselves as clicks, pops, screeches, or dropouts, etc. But if all of your CD rips are error-free (using EAC and/or the Accurip Database), and you are using a USB Thumb Drive in the _GS9_, you shouldn't have any issues.

There is some really good info in the following YouTube video if you can take the time to get through it. Yeah, I know it's presented by Steve Silberman of _Audioquest_, so maybe take some things with a grain of salt, but I think most of the info is legit. "RMAF16: Computer Audio Demystified"...








On another note...

[email protected] Erin, you change your mind like the wind, LOL!  You must drive the wifey KaaaRRRaaaAzzZeee. :laugh: I kid!  I drink plenty of the OCD Koolaid as well.

You'll like the SQ of the Sony for sure. IMHO, Sony's high-end ES single-DIN car audio head units have always provided the best SQ...even though their displays have always been horrible. The main reasons that I didn't choose the _GS9_ are #1, I am just not a fan of the _SongPal_ app compared to _USB Audio Player Pro_ on my 8" Phablet (maybe I'm just used to how it works now). And #2, my Phablet _is_ the HU, so there's no real need for a SmartDevice to control a _separate_ HU. #3, my portable _iBasso DX90_ PMP via its analog Line Out sounds as good as the _GS9_, and I can take it with me and use headphones when traveling...plus the _DX90_ will output via Coaxial digital as well. And I didn't want to give up my 8" Phablet display that provides a backup/rearview camera.

Maybe you can get away with just a USB Thumb Drive and use Shuffle Play and Skip Forward/Backward with the Sony's IR remote, or just use your iPod. If you can live with the peculiarities of the _GS9_ setup, you will be rewarded with great sound...and she's not a bad looker either. 

Aesthetically, I think the _GS9_ and _McIntosh meters_ might look better in your dash if you get rid of the "SONY" logo on the _GS9_ or maybe black it out. The "McIntosh" logo is centered over the GS9's volume knob and the two units look more symmetrical that way. And the Sony's "Hi-Res Audio" emblem on the right side is distracting to me as well. Then you could get some 1/8" x 3/4" Aluminum Flat Stock, give it a "brushed" finish, then cut it to length and use clear Scotch/3M Double-Sided Tape to attach it to the sides of the _GS9_. _Staples_ office supply has the tape...and don't worry, it's not permanent if you just use a few small tabs. Just my 2 cents.



















Oh, and I'm not sure how I found this...maybe _Niick_ posted it...but I thought it was really interesting...


----------



## SSSnake

> They're stretch bolts.
> 
> ahhh... First time I've heard that term. But good to know.


The more formal name is Torque To Yield (TTY). They are used in MOST critical automotive applications (head bolts, crank bolt, etc.). Good looking setup Erin! I hope to get back into things this year as my go fast stuff is pretty well finished. Now I just have to catch up on the boat audio and engine then the cadi gets an audio overhaul.


----------



## willtel

Babs said:


> It was that topic we were talking about maybe.. The consensus being if the front-end DAC is superb with the resolution of media it's working with, then use it.. The DSP's ADC won't hurt a thing if it's getting an excellent quality and strong signal in front of it. I used to think, less conversions the better always.. Which theoretically without much further investigation, it looks good on paper. But not so much after looking a bit further into it, and testing it.. Hearing the direct toslink method I was employing being beaten easily by a good 99RS head unit feeding analog into the Helix.
> 
> But also, in the case of the Sony, I think if there's anything DSD, it can only output analog, due to DSD constraints, and toslink is only good to 96khz or something like that. Never was much of a fan of toslink.. It needs an update as a format I think, when USB and HDMI rival it over copper.
> 
> Coincidentally the subject is afoot.. Subterfuse had this to say about it in another thread:


Crap. I wish I had read this yesterday before I ordered a JL Audio TwK‑D8 which only supports a digital input. Looks like it will go back and I'm shopping for another DSP now.


----------



## ErinH

just ask your dealer (or place of purchase) to send you the twk88. It's the same just with analog and digital inputs. You'll have to pay a little bit in difference but you'll end up with what you wanted anyway.


----------



## ErinH

Well, in all my years of doing this stuff I've never said "I'm done" because I know better. But here it goes: The Civic is done. 

I'm extremely happy with it as an overall package; sound and aesthetics. All the things I wanted this car to be over the years, it finally is. The driver selection does what I need, from the midrange/tweeter stealthily installed behind the pillar to the subs up front. The rear fill enhancing the soundstage. The Sony doing it's thing (although it is sometimes a pain in the butt). The Mc meters dancing up front. And the big boy Mc amp in the back really anchors it all for me. Heck, I think one of my favorite things is just having the power supply installed in the car. When I want to plug the car up to external power I just run an extension cord to the outlet at the rear fender and plug it right in. It's the little things (that's what she said)! In terms of how it sounds, I'm really happy with it. I won't go in to details because it always just winds up sounding like bragging to some so I'll just leave it at that. 

There truly isn't a thing about this install I would change. Through the last 7 years there's always been something that wasn't right and there was that desire to keep pushing the envelope in my car. I can honestly say there is nothing about this setup I would change. At 203k miles she's been kind to me. So here's to riding this sucker out another few years or until the engine falls out of the car.



So to recap, the final gear list is:

Sony GS9 Headunit
Mcintosh MPM4000 single-din meters
Dayton ND16 tweeters
Audiofrog GB25 mids
Illusion Audio C10 woofers
Mcintosh MC4000M 6-Channel Amp (front speakers)
Mcintosh MC423 2-Channel Amp (differential rear fill amp)
Audiofrog GB25 mids (differential rear fill speakers)
Helix DSP Pro 2
Iota 45 amp power supply installed in the car

I previously had a tan dash mat to hide all the wear/tear on my dash but I swapped to black dash mat last week because it blends better with the pillars and helps to provide a 'no boundary' look between the pillar and dash. 



And to the folks who are itching to say something snide or negative about me having finally completed this journey ... maybe just try being happy for your fellow audio buddy.


----------



## ErinH

And here's some parting shots now that the install is _finally_ all wrapped up...












Left and Right pillars hiding the mid/tweeter:








The Audiofrog GB25's taking care of the differential rear fill (only took a picture of one). Power comes from the little mcintosh mc423 that's installed behind the amp wall.


----------



## ErinH

Money shot!


----------



## Babs

I think she's finalizing her journey on the highest of notes. Sounding awesome and still carrying the miles in true Honda stride. She's been a good one!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## AyOne

ErinH said:


>


:faint:


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Love those pictures 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## danno14

Right on! It's been quite the journey and I've enjoyed following the ride. Enjoy!


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Can't think of a better install for you to "call it done". I wouldn't change a thing either because it sounded so good. Your car is the only one I truly "lost" myself in during the meet.


----------



## pionkej

I've been on a "posting hiatus" for nearly two years...but I came back when this notice hit my inbox!

You sir are the very definition of an audio whore. You have swapped equipment to: test new equipment for yourself, test new equipment for others, install equipment that supports a friend/company/team, and, most importantly, you have swapped gear out of boredom. Your installs have ranged from simple components, to "cancer-inducing stalactites on your pillars", to the integrated perfection you have reached now. Needless to say, you are "experienced". 

I haven't been around car audio as long as you or ran as much gear as you and I hit my "good enough" point about the time I stopped actively posting here. I know every build is a compromise of time, budget, and what a person is willing to modify in their vehicle, but I think it's awesome to see you have stayed at it long enough that you feel you've reached the apex of this car's potential! And knowing you as both a friend and fellow competitor I have no doubt that it sounds phenomenal. We haven't been able to hang out as much recently as we did in the past, and I'm saddened that I haven't heard your car since it's received all these changes. But rest assured that I don't plan for that to last and I'm hoping to hear this beast (from an audio perspective...it's still a Honda after all) sooner than later.

Congrats buddy.


----------



## Guest

CONGRATS sir !

So many of us, myself included, seem to be in an eternal cycle of swapping equipment and installs.... searching to correct this or that.... only to have another area pop up that "needs" to be worked on....

Your Honda is very impressive... I'm looking forward to seeing and listening to it in person very soon... !!!





ErinH said:


> Well, in all my years of doing this stuff I've never said "I'm done" because I know better. But here it goes: The Civic is done.
> 
> I'm extremely happy with it as an overall package; sound and aesthetics. All the things I wanted this car to be over the years, it finally is. The driver selection does what I need, from the midrange/tweeter stealthily installed behind the pillar to the subs up front. The rear fill enhancing the soundstage. The Sony doing it's thing (although it is sometimes a pain in the butt). The Mc meters dancing up front. And the big boy Mc amp in the back really anchors it all for me. Heck, I think one of my favorite things is just having the power supply installed in the car. When I want to plug the car up to external power I just run an extension cord to the outlet at the rear fender and plug it right in. It's the little things (that's what she said)! In terms of how it sounds, I'm really happy with it. I won't go in to details because it always just winds up sounding like bragging to some so I'll just leave it at that.
> 
> There truly isn't a thing about this install I would change. Through the last 7 years there's always been something that wasn't right and there was that desire to keep pushing the envelope in my car. I can honestly say there is nothing about this setup I would change. At 203k miles she's been kind to me. So here's to riding this sucker out another few years or until the engine falls out of the car.
> 
> 
> 
> So to recap, the final gear list is:
> 
> Sony GS9 Headunit
> Mcintosh MPM4000 single-din meters
> Dayton ND16 tweeters
> Audiofrog GB25 mids
> Illusion Audio C10 woofers
> Mcintosh MC4000M 6-Channel Amp (front speakers)
> Mcintosh MC423 2-Channel Amp (differential rear fill amp)
> Audiofrog GB25 mids (differential rear fill speakers)
> Helix DSP Pro 2
> Iota 45 amp power supply installed in the car
> 
> I previously had a tan dash mat to hide all the wear/tear on my dash but I swapped to black dash mat last week because it blends better with the pillars and helps to provide a 'no boundary' look between the pillar and dash.
> 
> 
> 
> And to the folks who are itching to say something snide or negative about me having finally completed this journey ... maybe just try being happy for your fellow audio buddy.


----------



## rton20s

There is a special sort of satisfaction to be derived through contentment.


----------



## ErinH

danno14 said:


> Right on! It's been quite the journey and I've enjoyed following the ride. Enjoy!


Indeed. Been a very long journey for this car. Now I can focus my efforts on other things. 




I800C0LLECT said:


> Love those pictures


Thanks, dude! I'd been waiting until everything was finally finished before I took some good photos. Those phone pics weren't too great. lol




Babs said:


> I think she's finalizing her journey on the highest of notes. Sounding awesome and still carrying the miles in true Honda stride. She's been a good one!


Thanks, Scott. With 203k on the clock, she's been good to me. I think she's got another couple hundred left in her. 




Hillbilly SQ said:


> Can't think of a better install for you to "call it done". I wouldn't change a thing either because it sounded so good. Your car is the only one I truly "lost" myself in during the meet.


Man, I appreciate it. I really didn't tune the car for any specific purpose (comp, fun, etc). Just set up the gains, got in and spent a few hours on the T/A and levels. My goal was to basically let the speakers/amp do their thing without me going in and adjusting EQ and sucking the life out of it. I've learned over the years that too much unnecessary EQ (you know, the whole "I have to make my left side match my ride side and I have to follow a prescribed curve") can often get you in more trouble than it can create good. So, when you heard it at the meet I had no bands of eq on the tweeters and one on the mids (a shelf filter around 1.3khz to neutralize the boundary loading of the pillar area). The midbass have a fair amount of EQ but it's pretty much necessary in a car. 90% of the tune was strictly levels/time/phase/crossovers. I have a few minor things I hear when I'm driving that I want to correct but as a whole I can't complain. 





pionkej said:


> I've been on a "posting hiatus" for nearly two years...but I came back when this notice hit my inbox!
> 
> You sir are the very definition of an audio whore. You have swapped equipment to: test new equipment for yourself, test new equipment for others, install equipment that supports a friend/company/team, and, most importantly, you have swapped gear out of boredom. Your installs have ranged from simple components, to "cancer-inducing stalactites on your pillars", to the integrated perfection you have reached now. Needless to say, you are "experienced".
> 
> I haven't been around car audio as long as you or ran as much gear as you and I hit my "good enough" point about the time I stopped actively posting here. I know every build is a compromise of time, budget, and what a person is willing to modify in their vehicle, but I think it's awesome to see you have stayed at it long enough that you feel you've reached the apex of this car's potential! And knowing you as both a friend and fellow competitor I have no doubt that it sounds phenomenal. We haven't been able to hang out as much recently as we did in the past, and I'm saddened that I haven't heard your car since it's received all these changes. But rest assured that I don't plan for that to last and I'm hoping to hear this beast (from an audio perspective...it's still a Honda after all) sooner than later.
> 
> Congrats buddy.


Welcome back (temporarily), friend! I appreciate all the kind words and the walk down memory lane, lol. I hope we get to meet up again this Summer but maybe we skip the BBQ and food poisoning this time... 





SQ_TSX said:


> CONGRATS sir !
> 
> So many of us, myself included, seem to be in an eternal cycle of swapping equipment and installs.... searching to correct this or that.... only to have another area pop up that "needs" to be worked on....
> 
> Your Honda is very impressive... I'm looking forward to seeing and listening to it in person very soon... !!!


Thanks, kind sir! I hope to finally meet you at a meet/comp this year and maybe get a chance to give you a demo. 




rton20s said:


> There is a special sort of satisfaction to be derived through contentment.


Amen, brother. No more going home and having that nagging feeling of "gotta go to the garage and work on my car". At least for another year or two or three or four until I get a new car.


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## imjustjason

Still one of my favorite cars to listen to when I get a chance, I heard it in the early stages of the 10's up front, can't wait to hear the finished version. 

Maybe if you can make it to my g2g this year, and Jeremy (SQ_TSX) can make it, you guys can meet there and share demos. If you talk John (pionkej) into coming this year I can get you guys some bbq that won't poison you. Both John and Jeremy are pretty local to me, it's a farther trip for you, but you've made it before.


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## Guest

imjustjason said:


> Still one of my favorite cars to listen to when I get a chance, I heard it in the early stages of the 10's up front, can't wait to hear the finished version.
> 
> Maybe if you can make it to my g2g this year, and Jeremy (SQ_TSX) can make it, you guys can meet there and share demos. If you talk John (pionkej) into coming this year I can get you guys some bbq that won't poison you. Both John and Jeremy are pretty local to me, it's a farther trip for you, but you've made it before.


Jason, 
I think your event might be the best opportunity for Erin and I to meet up and share demos.... I've assured Tim I'm coming... heck he knows where I live... might just kidnap me to get me there.... 

Over the next few weeks I'll periodically have my car at AudioX for Steve to complete some things for me.... might also be a good time to meet Erin....


----------



## ErinH

Thanks, Jason. Yea, I definitely plan on making it to your meet this year. Think I had to bail last year because of work travel but as it stands today, I currently have no travel plans the weekend of your meet.


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## Boostedrex

Well well. It's finished now. I can't say I blame you, everything looks immaculate! I hope that I'll get to hear it sooner rather than later. I promise to not take the keys back to Cali this time though. LOL!!!!!!! I look forward to the day that the two cars in my garage reach that finished stage as well. That is the end goal.


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## danno14

Boostedrex said:


> I look forward to the day that the two cars in my garage reach that finished stage as well. That is the end goal.


^^^THIS! 

Not that I will ever have the time/skill set/etc. to get ANY car of mine to this level of end goal


----------



## ErinH

Boostedrex said:


> Well well. It's finished now. I can't say I blame you, everything looks immaculate! I hope that I'll get to hear it sooner rather than later. I promise to not take the keys back to Cali this time though. LOL!!!!!!! I look forward to the day that the two cars in my garage reach that finished stage as well. That is the end goal.


LOL! I totally forgot about that! It would be great if you and I could tag up again sometime. Maybe if you get heavy in to competing this year or next and make it to Finals I can make the drive up/over to meet up with you. Let's definitely try to make that happen! 



danno14 said:


> ^^^THIS!
> 
> Not that I will ever have the time/skill set/etc. to get ANY car of mine to this level of end goal


I dunno man... yea, it took me a long time to get to the point where I'm at now. But the majority of that time was spent swapping gear, experimenting with things, and developing the 'sound' I was trying to achieve, without actually knowing what it was I wanted. lol. Plenty of people build incredible sounding systems in a lot less time. And heck, the sound of my civic, as happy as I am with it, may not be the sound others want or are looking for. There's always a mix of subjectivity in this hobby. Even right now I have a problem I need to adjust via the DSP on my right tweeter level but it's not bothering me enough to drag the laptop out and correct it. It's taken me a while to get to the point where I can just enjoy the stereo for what it is and it's a real fun time. That's good enough for me at the moment. 

I might try to enter a show or two this year if it works out schedule wise so I'll see where it lands on the judges' radar and get some additional feedback from buddies to improve it as necessary.


----------



## Boostedrex

ErinH said:


> LOL! I totally forgot about that! It would be great if you and I could tag up again sometime. Maybe if you get heavy in to competing this year or next and make it to Finals I can make the drive up/over to meet up with you. Let's definitely try to make that happen!



Sounds like a plan to me. I know that Karra has every intention of driving out to Finals should she qualify this season. If not, then we'll at least try to hop a quick flight out there to visit with everyone. I'll be sure to keep you in the loop with things. And I am all but sure that we will be competing at Finals next year. I figure it will take a solid year to get everything tweaked to the level that her car will be competitive on that stage.


----------



## ErinH

Boostedrex said:


> Sounds like a plan to me. I know that Karra has every intention of driving out to Finals should she qualify this season. If not, then we'll at least try to hop a quick flight out there to visit with everyone. I'll be sure to keep you in the loop with things. And I am all but sure that we will be competing at Finals next year. I figure it will take a solid year to get everything tweaked to the level that her car will be competitive on that stage.


That would be cool if you guys can make it this year ... we are planning on a vacation in early October but I'm hopeful that Finals will be after my vacation so I can make it this year. Most likely I'd be a spectator but maybe as a competitor (long shot).


----------



## ErinH

Been a couple weeks now and although I still know there are areas that need improvement those areas aren't driving me batty. That said, I did wind up replacing both tweeters because, as my ears suspected all weekend at the NCSQ meet, something was amiss with them. I thought it could have just been a left/right balance thing. After a few minutes in the car last week lining up pink noise by ear I found I had to attenuate everything by about 4dB relative to the left tweeter. So, yea... that doesn't pass the logic test. Thing is, that same tweeter was brand new as of 3 weeks ago.

I got out my Dayton DATs (another plug for an awesome tool in the bag) and ran a sweep on each tweeter. I don't have the results handy but trust me when I say something was terribly amiss about the left tweeter. I had a few other backups on hand so I swept those and they all matched what was expected and were pretty close to each other (nothing like Scanspeak's QC which is incredible, fwiw). So, naturally I replaced the left tweeter. I went ahead and replaced the right tweeter as well just for the heck of it, so the pair I have now are a much closer match. I re-leveled the other channels and got things back to a pretty happy medium. Good to go now. 





With all that said, the past year or so I've been saying I wanted to get back in to BMX, at least a little bit. Some context for those who don't know: I rode BMX pretty seriously from about 14 up to 24 when I had to have back surgery. I have ridden once in the 10 years since then. But it's always been something I've loved. BMX for life, as they say. I've always been caught up in this car audio stuff and never had the mental free-time to go out and ride. But now that the car is *done* I'm back at it. I have been to the janky old skatepark I helped build about 12 years ago a couple times the past two weeks with my daughter and we have a blast. I went for a solo mission myself last night... just me, my bike and my headphones. Wrecked a couple times but I managed to get out of bed this morning without too much trouble. 

Anyway, I'm really happy to be back out there rolling around and sharing the hobby with my daughter. Of course, I do some really long stretch periods a couple times a day now and I'm working out again but my old bones are still old bones but not too shabby for having been out of the game for the past 10 years. I posted a couple videos for you to make fun of or share excitement with (I'm sure the former will be the most likely route).


----------



## rton20s

Glad to hear you got the tweeters sorted. 

I attempted a return to my own BMX roots several years ago. I got a steal on a DK 4 Pack and just couldn't pass it up. I learned quite quickly, that I was not going to bring that skill set back. It was still fun to cruise around on the bike, but it is amazing how much more compact a 20" bike feels when you're carrying an extra 60+ lbs. 

The bike just collects dust in the garage now, but I have been trying to get out on my 29er mountain bike more. My oldest son is also just getting old enough to ride, so I really enjoy sharing that with him. We'll have to hit our local park soon.

Stick to the riding. Have fun!


----------



## danno14

ErinH said:


> Been a couple weeks now and although I still know there are areas that need improvement those areas aren't driving me batty. That said, I did wind up replacing both tweeters because, as my ears suspected all weekend at the NCSQ meet, something was amiss with them. I thought it could have just been a left/right balance thing. After a few minutes in the car last week lining up pink noise by ear I found I had to attenuate everything by about 4dB relative to the left tweeter. So, yea... that doesn't pass the logic test. Thing is, that same tweeter was brand new as of 3 weeks ago.
> 
> I got out my Dayton DATs (another plug for an awesome tool in the bag) and ran a sweep on each tweeter. I don't have the results handy but trust me when I say something was terribly amiss about the left tweeter. I had a few other backups on hand so I swept those and they all matched what was expected and were pretty close to each other (nothing like Scanspeak's QC which is incredible, fwiw). So, naturally I replaced the left tweeter. I went ahead and replaced the right tweeter as well just for the heck of it, so the pair I have now are a much closer match. I re-leveled the other channels and got things back to a pretty happy medium. Good to go now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all that said, the past year or so I've been saying I wanted to get back in to BMX, at least a little bit. Some context for those who don't know: I rode BMX pretty seriously from about 14 up to 24 when I had to have back surgery. I have ridden once in the 10 years since then. But it's always been something I've loved. BMX for life, as they say. I've always been caught up in this car audio stuff and never had the mental free-time to go out and ride. But now that the car is *done* I'm back at it. I have been to the janky old skatepark I helped build about 12 years ago a couple times the past two weeks with my daughter and we have a blast. I went for a solo mission myself last night... just me, my bike and my headphones. Wrecked a couple times but I managed to get out of bed this morning without too much trouble.
> 
> Anyway, I'm really happy to be back out there rolling around and sharing the hobby with my daughter. Of course, I do some really long stretch periods a couple times a day now and I'm working out again but my old bones are still old bones but not too shabby for having been out of the game for the past 10 years. I posted a couple videos for you to make fun of or share excitement with (I'm sure the former will be the most likely route).


 Great vid's! The first one is awesome.... watching our kids "take flight" in something that's our interest is particularly rewarding 

I was starting to wonder on the second clip, if I was going to see you succeed or not 

I feel this was about skiing, but no longer have the resilience I once did. 
Reminds me of (to paraphrase Toby Keith) "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was!"

Keep on keeping on!


----------



## ErinH

rton20s said:


> Glad to hear you got the tweeters sorted.
> 
> I attempted a return to my own BMX roots several years ago. I got a steal on a DK 4 Pack and just couldn't pass it up. I learned quite quickly, that I was not going to bring that skill set back. It was still fun to cruise around on the bike, but it is amazing how much more compact a 20" bike feels when you're carrying an extra 60+ lbs.
> 
> The bike just collects dust in the garage now, but I have been trying to get out on my 29er mountain bike more. My oldest son is also just getting old enough to ride, so I really enjoy sharing that with him. We'll have to hit our local park soon.
> 
> Stick to the riding. Have fun!


Thanks! I have a buddy who had a few surgeries and had to quit BMX but he picked up the mountain bike stuff a few years ago. Now he's out riding trails (not trials, just to be clear) and kicking tail. Larger bikes were never my thing, though, so I'll stick to the BMX stuff. 

Ironic/cool/funny thing is I started back all on my own accord. Posted a couple videos on my instagram feed and my old BMX buddies started chatting with me about getting together and riding. Well, one of the skateparks not too far from us is now allowing bikes and a few of them went Monday night. I think we are all gonna try to meet up next week there and ride together. Just cool how the timing of things worked out. 



danno14 said:


> Great vid's! The first one is awesome.... watching our kids "take flight" in something that's our interest is particularly rewarding
> 
> I was starting to wonder on the second clip, if I was going to see you succeed or not
> 
> I feel this was about skiing, but no longer have the resilience I once did.
> Reminds me of (to paraphrase Toby Keith) "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was!"
> 
> Keep on keeping on!


Oh, man, it's for sure awesome to see my daughter out there enjoying it. She learned how to ride a bike literally in about 30 minutes (sans training wheels). The first time I pushed her off on her own she just took off. My wife and I were jaw-dropped. lol My neighbors (two couples) have kids my daughter's age and older and they saw us out riding bikes together and were asking how I taught her to ride so early. The secret? Push them in grass first. They're going to fall. They need to understand that. Also, that's a good place for them to learn about braking. Once they fall a few times in grass (because it's not as bad as concrete) that initial fear is out of the way and they also understand the concept of braking they can focus on just getting their balance and they will be able to stop before they fall over. Worked for us. 

Now it's scary because she wants to go Mach 5 at everything. I have to tell her to slow down around corners, lol. It's absolutely fun watching her, though, and I view taking her to the skatepark as a confidence building exercise. She falls, she gets back up. There are other people there (mostly teenagers/20's) so she feels that intimidation/embarrassment but she gets back on and she goes, then all the folks will give her props. So she gets that self esteem boost and that understanding that success doesn't always happen first take.


Or maybe I'm making more of it than I need to. But that's my take on it as a father/BMX'r.


----------



## rton20s

ErinH said:


> Thanks! I have a buddy who had a few surgeries and had to quit BMX but he picked up the mountain bike stuff a few years ago. Now he's out riding trails (not trials, just to be clear) and kicking tail. Larger bikes were never my thing, though, so I'll stick to the BMX stuff.
> 
> Ironic/cool/funny thing is I started back all on my own accord. Posted a couple videos on my instagram feed and my old BMX buddies started chatting with me about getting together and riding. Well, one of the skateparks not too far from us is now allowing bikes and a few of them went Monday night. I think we are all gonna try to meet up next week there and ride together. Just cool how the timing of things worked out.


That is really cool that many of your old riding buddies are coming back around to ride with you. Just like old times, I'm sure. With a little more Advil.  

I wanted to stick to my BMX roots, and even considered jumping up to a larger wheel cruiser so I didn't feel like a "fat guy in a little coat." However, I had several friends and family that were getting into mountain biking and so decided to go that route. The bike I picked up is a Redline d440, which is a fully rigid chromoly 29er with 1x8 gears and geometry that is much more "comfortable" for someone coming from BMX. I'm not able to huck the thing around the way I used to do at all of the local dirt jumps "back in the day," but it has been a blast hitting the local trails and MTB park with friends and family (including my 66 year old FIL). 




ErinH said:


> Oh, man, it's for sure awesome to see my daughter out there enjoying it. She learned how to ride a bike literally in about 30 minutes (sans training wheels). The first time I pushed her off on her own she just took off. My wife and I were jaw-dropped. lol My neighbors (two couples) have kids my daughter's age and older and they saw us out riding bikes together and were asking how I taught her to ride so early. The secret? Push them in grass first. They're going to fall. They need to understand that. Also, that's a good place for them to learn about braking. Once they fall a few times in grass (because it's not as bad as concrete) that initial fear is out of the way and they also understand the concept of braking they can focus on just getting their balance and they will be able to stop before they fall over. Worked for us.
> 
> Now it's scary because she wants to go Mach 5 at everything. I have to tell her to slow down around corners, lol. It's absolutely fun watching her, though, and I view taking her to the skatepark as a confidence building exercise. She falls, she gets back up. There are other people there (mostly teenagers/20's) so she feels that intimidation/embarrassment but she gets back on and she goes, then all the folks will give her props. So she gets that self esteem boost and that understanding that success doesn't always happen first take.
> 
> 
> Or maybe I'm making more of it than I need to. But that's my take on it as a father/BMX'r.


I really think my favorite part about getting back on the bike is that I get to watch my boys discover riding bikes for the first time. My 5 year old is on a cool little 16" pedal bike from Tykes Bykes (now Stampede) after starting on a 12" Giant balance bike. He never did do training wheels, and we're still working a bit on his confidence on the pedal bike. My youngest is about to turn two and is just about ready to jump on the balance bike. 

I've also spent far too much time recently researching 20" bikes for my oldest because my FIL wants to pick up a nice bike for him to use when he visits. It amazes me how far bike design for toddlers and little kids has come since I was that age. And you don't have to spend a fortune (not too much more than a Walmart offering) to get a decent bike. Of course if you want to drop $3k on a rig for your four year old, the options are out there. 

Sorry for the side track.


----------



## ErinH

Last week I was scrolling through old build logs and viewing those scanned car audio magazine interviews thinking to myself “man, I wish we had videos of this stuff”. That way you could really get an idea of what the owner is thinking and how the whole system is integrated. Pictures are great but a video – at least in my opinion – is even better. 

I mentioned this to a few friends and said I would like to do this at events such as comps and meets. Start posting video interviews with folks as they walk through their car install and get their input on various things from why they chose the gear they chose to what they like most about their system and things they’d like to work on. 

“You have to start somewhere”, right? Figured I might as well be my own guinea pig here. Therefore, what you see below is my first attempt at doing something like this. 

This was recorded with my iPhone and an external lapel mic. I think it turned out OK. It's not quite as polished as I'd like. But I think it's good for a first take, off the cuff. I missed a couple things so there will likely be a v1.1 to this. Trying to fill in dead space myself... kind of tough to do. If this is something people enjoy then I'll carry forward but I didn't want to sink a lot of time/money in to this just yet.

If you are coming to a show and I'm there and you're down with joining in the fun let me know and we can do an "interview" and walkthrough of your car. I've got a friend out in OK (Robert) who suggested we join forces and provide coverage of events in various regions and I look forward to seeing what he can put together at the College Station show next weekend. 

Here we go…


----------



## ErinH

Also, FWIW, I'm working with a couple fellas on doing a review of the Sony GS9. Hopefully will be posted within the next couple weeks.


----------



## oabeieo

Erin, 
Your system is nice. 
Loved the vid, 

Can I ask what dash mat is that? Is it custom? 
I really like it it a lot. What kind of fabric is on it. 
Thx


----------



## JayinMI

I hope I get to hear it in it's current iteration. Last time I got to hear it was when you first tried the 10's in the kicks, but before Steve did the makeover.

If I lived anywhere near you, I'd totally clean up your wiring for free. lol

Jay


----------



## bbfoto

Hey Erin, great job on the video! I'd definitely be down to see more videos like this. :thumbsup:

Ha, and I know from personal experience how hard it is not to say "um, ahh, uhh, yeah, so, so, so...yeah...", etc, and to not ramble on or try to explain one simple thing 5 different (confusing) ways, LOL. So props are in order just for that!!!

Your system setup is obviously unique compared to most "everyday Joe" types of installs, and I think that it's great and important that you explain the "Why's?" of your particular choices, especially if these will be going out to a broader audience.

Overall great job and props again for taking the time to do this. It seems like it would be simple to do, but it takes a lot of thought and effort and I appreciate it!

FWIW, I'll include some "Production" tips below. As always, take them FWTW.

I will usually make a small typed or written "short list" of the topics or key points that I'd like to cover, and the order I'd like to present them in, and then attach this list on my sleeve/arm with some rubber bands, or place the list somewhere "out of frame" to refer to while recording. Using your iPad for this can work really well, and they even have Teleprompter apps available.

Also, try keep the camera at least at eye-level when filming yourself and others...the under-the-chin/up-the-nose angle is the least flattering angle. 

In general, I think that it's best to keep the videos as short as possible while including all the key information that people will want to know and see...and you really did a good job in that regard! The format I've become a fan of lately is a reasonably short video such as yours, followed by an invitation to submit questions for a later Q&A session, which you also did. So at a not too much later date, you would provide a forum post or another video that just covers the Q&A that were submitted.

DIALOG AUDIO: The audio of your voice seemed a bit low in level for having used the lavalier mic. If there's any way to adjust the levels or gain up 6-10dB on your mic without introducing distortion or picking up too much extraneous/outside noise, that would be great. You'll have to think about how to best mic yourself and your subject when you interview other's setups. For these, it just might be best to use the iPhone's built-in microphone. There are some relatively inexpensive lapel/clip-style, thumb-drive size digital recorders with built-in mics that work great for this, but then you have to deal with syncing the audio separately to the video in an editing program.

Regarding Picture Quality, for this type of "moving about" video recording, it's best to just use the auto-exposure setting. If the video camera/cell phone has a choice of Exposure Metering modes such as, "Average, Spot, Matrix, Center-Weighted", etc, you might try all of those to see what gives the overall best result, especially when transitioning from inside the vehicle to outside the vehicle.

For lighting, ideally it's best to have as much bright, but even lighting as possible to get good image quality without graininess or noise, especially in the shadows. This is akin to S/N ratio in audio. You want a strong, clean signal to minimize the noise floor.

Obviously, in most situations that you'll be recording in, you won't have any control or choice in the matter. But if the vehicles are outside in bright sunlight, ideally you'd find a spot that's in complete open shade, such as the shade next to the side of a tallish building, under an awning or large tree, or a white or black (neutral color) E-Z Up Canopy Tent that provides full coverage shade for the vehicle's windows and doors. The 10'x15' white Caravan or EZ-UP brand canopy tents are perfect for this, but expensive. One other note in regard to shooting in open shade conditions is that you have to be careful about the color of the nearby surroundings, such as bright primary color buildings, green grass, or other non-neutral, bright colors that will reflect and cast their color into the highlights and shadow areas.

You could purchase a small "on-camera" Bi-Color LED Light Panel to fill in your main subject and the dark recesses of the installs. It's usually best to use these as just a fill light to even out the Shadows and not to overpower the existing ambient light. There are a full range of models and prices of these these. I prefer the ones that are both dim-able and offer variable color balance adjustment from 3200K to 5500K. Check Amazon as well for reviews.

*Adorama - Shop On-Camera LED Video Lights*

Some of them have iPhone mounts as well, or I use this RetiCAM Mount+Handle that works great. You can mount the LED bracket to the bottom of the handle and then turn the entire rig upside down so the LED is on top, or side mounted using a little ball head/u-joint that comes with the LED mount. Just be sure to orient your iPhone correctly. 

*RetiCAM Smartphone Tripod Mount with Grip/Handle*


Yeah, another one of my typical neverending posts, BUT... just so you know, I'd be more than thrilled to see more videos exactly like your first one, just as they are, without all of that crap I just rambled on about! You do a good job, man, and this is a great idea! Kudos!

I'd be really interested in your review of the Sony RSX-GS9 as well.


----------



## SkizeR

Hey erin, care to go into detail about the aiming of your rear speakers? why not put them in the rear deck location? reason i ask is because im about to re-do my civic and this is one of the changes i will be making


----------



## Blu

bbfoto said:


> Hey Erin, great job on the video! I'd definitely be down to see more videos like this. :thumbsup:


I concur!


----------



## ErinH

JayinMI said:


> I hope I get to hear it in it's current iteration. Last time I got to hear it was when you first tried the 10's in the kicks, but before Steve did the makeover.
> 
> If I lived anywhere near you, I'd totally clean up your wiring for free. lol
> 
> Jay


LOL! Thanks for the offer on the wiring clean up! I'll get to it eventually. It may be next year, but it'll happen. lol


As far as the sound, it's pretty much the same (with respect to the kicks). Steve just did a great job at really making them look great. I am considering competing at The Vinny next month so I need to do a refresher tune... I have been playing with some other stuff outside of the conventional stereo setup so I need to reconfigure things before then.




bbfoto said:


> Yeah, another one of my typical neverending posts, BUT... just so you know, I'd be more than thrilled to see more videos exactly like your first one, just as they are, without all of that crap I just rambled on about! You do a good job, man, and this is a great idea! Kudos!
> 
> I'd be really interested in your review of the Sony RSX-GS9 as well.


Billy, I appreciate the feedback. I did a small bit of research before doing this but it's certainly not a polished video. Keeping the video short was the intent but it's hard to do justice to the install and details of "why" in a 3 minute video clip. Not to mention when you forget things that are actually important as well. lol. Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I'll use your it the best I can to improve. 

I really want a good wireless mic. Especially if I'm doing 'interviews' and someone is showing off their car. I wouldn't want them tripping up on their own lav mic cord. Unfortunately, there are really only two options: cheap or expensive. I went the cheap route (PYLE wireless setup) and it was terrible. Sending it back. I don't want to drop $100+ on a wireless mic kit that I may not use but once or twice so for now I'll have to make due with the wired version. So, if you happen to have a used wireless mic kit for the iPhone... you know...  




SkizeR said:


> Hey erin, care to go into detail about the aiming of your rear speakers? why not put them in the rear deck location? reason i ask is because im about to re-do my civic and this is one of the changes i will be making


It would easy if I could explain it to you in person. Not that it's uber complicated. It's just that explaining via typing is more cumbersome than just talking about it. I think that would make a good "VBLog 1.1" episode, so let me see if I can find some time to do little video reply. If not, I'll come back here and type something up.




Blu said:


> I concur!


Thanks, dude! I thought the video would be a good way to 'cap off' the install log. It's easier for me to talk through these things than sit down and type them all up but now that a week has passed I know there are some aspects I completely overlooked. Like I said, I'm likely going to go back over some things in a future video(s). I'll post those here if I do.


----------



## ErinH

oabeieo said:


> Erin,
> Your system is nice.
> Loved the vid,
> 
> Can I ask what dash mat is that? Is it custom?
> I really like it it a lot. What kind of fabric is on it.
> Thx


Thanks!


Dashmat is Dash Designs "Dashtex" model. I like it. Doesn't look entirely cheesy.


----------



## ErinH

ErinH said:


> I've got a friend out in OK (Robert) who suggested we join forces and provide coverage of events in various regions and I look forward to seeing what he can put together at the College Station show next weekend.


Robert did a video of Steve Head discussing his Blazer (which, if you don't know, is a beast in the most hi-fi sense according to many who's ears I trust).

He posted it here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...lery/347586-steve-heads-blazer-video-log.html


Go give Robert props. Just don't call him Rob.


Peace!


----------



## pocket5s

ErinH said:


> Just don't call him Rob.
> 
> 
> Peace!


I forgot I told you that!


----------



## BigAl205

Weird...I just call him Betty...and Betty calls me Al


----------



## ErinH

One of my favorite music videos. And incredible album to boot.


----------



## Babs

ErinH said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dashmat is Dash Designs "Dashtex" model. I like it. Doesn't look entirely cheesy.



I agree.. Looks great in black as well. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

Babs said:


> I agree.. Looks great in black as well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro




Mine just showed up. It is very nice and thick. Love it! 
I'm doing a total redesign on my dash and moving my mids into the forward dash and doing away with the off axis configuration . 


I'm going to have to cut the mat to make it fit around the molds , so I'll wait to install it because I don't want to get this one all dirty as mine has gotten globs of Dynamat stuck to it somehow. So I'll keep the velour mat up until fab is done than it's going on. 
And yes black is quite nice indeed.

It's smooth with a cool pattern yet has a good pad underneath and definitely looks more contemporary rather than something you would see on an 85 cutlass with a chain steering wheel


----------



## ErinH

ErinH said:


> Well, in all my years of doing this stuff I've never said "I'm done" because I know better. But here it goes: The Civic is done.














... we all know the addiction! 



Been working on changes. (of course)

Will update soon. 



Peace!


----------



## Babs

“Done”!? We don’t need no Done!! Each year she gets older, she gets cheaper so that means less worry about cutting up stuff and doing silly stuff. LOL!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## subterFUSE

If you’re done, then you are an over cooked steak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## casey

here we goooo


----------



## captainobvious

There is never a "done" in car audio.... we all know this 


Looking forward to hearing the new changes Erin. Your car is one I always enjoy listening to.


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> There is never a "done" in car audio.... we all know this
> 
> 
> Looking forward to hearing the new changes Erin. Your car is one I always enjoy listening to.


Thanks, man. And ditto!


----------



## ErinH

The last setup I had (the one I was "done" on) sounded fantastic but a) yep, those kick enclosures got old and b) I missed the sheer output and exciting factor of the old IB15 setup. After denying those aspects for a long time I finally decided to swallow my pride and go back to a setup similar to one I used to have ... just with more output potential. With this latest iteration the end goal is to target the system fidelity I had with my Kef/JLzr800/AEIB15 setup from a few years ago but with increased output. I have had a few iterations since that setup which were an improvement in one way or another but ironically it's almost always the one that people say they liked the most (probably because of the <400hz portion). But, I strayed from it to tinker with other things and see where I could improve. Some pros/cons of that setup were: The Kef concentrics were great for creating a very great illusion of space but their placement/angling creating some problems that I was trying to avoid with later iterations. The Kefs also had a mid-level sensitivity which meant to really get volume out of them I had to target a crossover that was a bit too high to optimize the acoustic blending between it and the JL's. The bass/subbass blending was the best it ever was (and carried through the satori setup later). 


In most car audio systems the limiting factor in the high-output/hi-fidelity tradeoff is either the tweeter or the midbass. Rarely is it the midrange (if you have a 3-way setup) or the subwoofer. So with that in mind I set out to find a setup that would achieve similar sonic qualities to the older Kef setup but with about 10dB more output. And with the drivers I'll be using, it'll do it. 

The build isn't done yet so I'm hesitant to post the full list. But, the things I don't mind sharing are:
Midbass: Scanspeak Discovery 26W/4534G 10" Aluminum Cone
Subs: AE IB15's (again)



For midbass, I spent a lot of time modeling different drivers; focusing mainly on pro-audio drivers due to their higher sensitivity but time and time again I found they always had plenty of output... but typically started rolling off much too soon for my tastes, thus causing them to require EQ to boost the low end along with a very steep filter thereby messing with the phase in (IMHO) the most phase-important area in the frequency spectrum. The Scanspeaks I decided to go with have a low-90's sensitivity which is quite good. They have a very low Fs but will be crossed over as a midbass so aspects like compression are mitigated. Coupling that with the knowledge of what boundary enforcement does to the response from my kick-drivers, they'll provide more output in the critical bandpass area without needing a steep filter than other options would have. I can have my cake and eat it, too. 


The hard work is done. Wires are ran. I took my kicks and essentially chopped off the enclosure portions and found myself right back at where I was 2 years ago: venting 10" midbass outside the car through the firewall. Go figure, right?...  
I rebuilt the IB wall and installed it over the weekend; the subs are ready to be installed once I get the amp rack in. I had the guys at Audio X build some new pillars for me which saved me a lot of much-needed time. I installed those yesterday. The car has been apart since around September but I should be finishing it all up in the next week or two. I'll post up some pictures of the progress in a bit.


----------



## captainobvious

I think all of the proposed changes are a positive. There is something I really like about a system that can sound "effortless". When you turn the volume knob up and it just sounds like it has more life and more energy, that is a good thing. That is one of the qualities that I think stood out in my new sq van last year. Dynamic, real sound with plenty of output. I think yours will have a great character to it too. The dual 15's is nuts and the low end should be very clean with their super low inductance and how little those will actually have to travel to reach your output levels.


----------



## bertholomey

I have liked all of the iterations, especially with knowing the context of the ‘Why’ of each iteration. I really enjoyed the low end with dual 15’s , and I’m extremely excited to hear those new front speakers with the ‘midbass’ drivers


----------



## Truthunter

ErinH said:


> Subs: AE IB15's (again)


Looking forward to finally hearing this car in April 

Will these be a set of older IB15's or the newer IB15AU's?


----------



## Mic10is

im sure it will still sound "meh to me


----------



## ErinH

Mic10is said:


> im sure it will still sound "meh to me


I can't remember the last time you listened to mine? If not in Atlanta last Summer then the most recent I can think of is finals a few years ago? But, yea... 


















Truthunter said:


> Looking forward to finally hearing this car in April
> 
> Will these be a set of older IB15's or the newer IB15AU's?


sbp15's.


----------



## Mic10is

ErinH said:


> Mic10is said:
> 
> 
> 
> im sure it will still sound "meh to me <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Roll Eyes
> 
> 
> 
> (Sarcastic)" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> 
> 
> I can't remember the last time you listened to mine? If not in Atlanta last Summer then the most recent I can think of is finals a few years ago? But, yea...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking forward to finally hearing this car in April <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> Will these be a set of older IB15's or the newer IB15AU's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> sbp15's.
Click to expand...


I heard it in Atlanta for a bit.....it wasn't terrible


----------



## claydo

I'd be happy to get a "meh" from mic....lol. Usually I get more along the lines of "too much this, way too much this, and this and that ain't right....." I think the man judged too damn much....lmao, but, that's why I always ask him to take a listen.......I would love to see him raise an eyebrow, or have a little grin emerging from my car, just once. Goals dammit, gotta have goals! I would cut the line to listen to a car that got the man excited tho.....


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> I think all of the proposed changes are a positive. There is something I really like about a system that can sound "effortless". When you turn the volume knob up and it just sounds like it has more life and more energy, that is a good thing. That is one of the qualities that I think stood out in my new sq van last year. Dynamic, real sound with plenty of output. I think yours will have a great character to it too. The dual 15's is nuts and the low end should be very clean with their super low inductance and how little those will actually have to travel to reach your output levels.


Totally agree. The last setup would get loud but it just gave something up ... I mean, it imaged incredibly well... had a more symmetrical soundstage than I think I'd ever had and focused super great. Tonality was solid but it just felt like something was lacking. As great as the up front subs were, below about 40hz they 'fought' each other and canceled out. Crazy thing was if I put a LPF on one of the midbass drivers (didn't matter which one) around that point the low end response would come right back. I learned something I hadn't considered before with that. That and I actually found that the bass could sometimes sound more behind me than when I physically had subs behind me thanks to the natural null around 70hz from the near side midbass. Car audio... whatcha gon' do? (scrap it and start all over)

But, anyway... I'm excited to get this whole thing up and running. Been playing the new mids a bit and I'm blown away at how real they sound. Most natural midrange I've heard yet. 




bertholomey said:


> I have liked all of the iterations, especially with knowing the context of the ‘Why’ of each iteration. I really enjoyed the low end with dual 15’s , and I’m extremely excited to hear those new front speakers with the ‘midbass’ drivers


Well, heck, if I had known I'd have kept going on about the change! Haha. In all seriousness, I like to kind of explain why and what I learned. I suppose that's kind of what build logs are about. Otherwise we'd all just post pictures of the finished product and walk away.


----------



## ErinH

Mic10is said:


> I heard it in Atlanta for a bit.....it wasn't terrible


I slept at a Holiday Inn the night before. Srsly.




claydo said:


> I'd be happy to get a "meh" from mic....lol. Usually I get more along the lines of "too much this, way too much this, and this and that ain't right....." I think the man judged too damn much....lmao, but, that's why I always ask him to take a listen.......I would love to see him raise an eyebrow, or have a little grin emerging from my car, just once. Goals dammit, gotta have goals! I would cut the line to listen to a car that got the man excited tho.....


I had a goal once to make Mic smile. He did it. I was like...


----------



## benny z

Lolol


----------



## Babs

I can’t wait!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mic10is

ErinH said:


> Mic10is said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard it in Atlanta for a bit.....it wasn't terrible
> 
> 
> 
> I slept at a Holiday Inn the night before. Srsly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> claydo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be happy to get a "meh" from mic....lol. Usually I get more along the lines of "too much this, way too much this, and this and that ain't right....." I think the man judged too damn much....lmao, but, that's why I always ask him to take a listen.......I would love to see him raise an eyebrow, or have a little grin emerging from my car, just once. Goals dammit, gotta have goals! I would cut the line to listen to a car that got the man excited tho.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I had a goal once to make Mic smile. He did it. I was like...
Click to expand...


Erin Hardison you always make me smile.....it's just very very well hidden way way way way down deep


----------



## seafish

SO I see the you are not saying what mids you are using ..bet you I can GUESS, but NOT gonna steal your thunder!!!

If they are in fact what I am thinking, the pair that I heard were amazing, and that was through youtube over my computer monitors (granted they are JBL LS305), but I was more then suitably impressed!! Course I might well be wrong too!!!


----------



## danno14

ErinH said:


> I can't remember the last time you listened to mine? If not in Atlanta last Summer then the most recent I can think of is finals a few years ago? But, yea...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sbp15's.



Aaahhhh!
I wondered when this would happen ?

Gonna be fun to watch.....


----------



## ErinH

danno14 said:


> Aaahhhh!
> I wondered when this would happen &#55357;&#56861;
> 
> Gonna be fun to watch.....


Yea... I bought those subs from you back in October? September? More proof that I'm a total slacker! :laugh:


----------



## ErinH

Subs are mounted. Horses fed. They say she’s grounded til she’s dead. 

Wait. That’s not right.



Anywho...













(PS: If you can tell me the song I kinda-quoted I’ll give you an Internet high five.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bigbubba

I'll bet there is not an open cavity in the car that hasn't been filled with spray foam.  

Them 15's look mighty fine in there.


----------



## Niebur3

ErinH said:


> Subs are mounted. Horses fed. They say she’s grounded til she’s dead.
> 
> Wait. That’s not right.
> 
> 
> 
> Anywho...
> 
> 
> (PS: If you can tell me the song I kinda-quoted I’ll give you an Internet high five.)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So....you a Garth Brooks fan....huh?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

oh man..I loved some GB as a kid. Ain't goin down til the sun comes up  I think?


----------



## ErinH

bigbubba said:


> I'll bet there is not an open cavity in the car that hasn't been filled with spray foam.


That's the truth! The chassis was treated with two part polyurethane about 5 years ago to keep resonance down. The trunk... b-pillars... c-pillars... she's sealed up!



Niebur3 said:


> So....you a Garth Brooks fan....huh?


Ding ding!!!! 

Go figure you'd be the one to get it and I can't post the meme for the internet high five since you hate memes so much. You did this to yourself. Just remember that.


----------



## ErinH

I800C0LLECT said:


> oh man..I loved some GB as a kid. Ain't goin down til the sun comes up  I think?


Since Jerry hates memes, the award will be defaulted to you!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Score!!


----------



## OnYrMrk

Erin, I am looking forward to hearing your car and this new install. I would love for you to give me some of your time to listen to mine as well. I will be at the Georgia show this year, not as a judge, but this time, as a competitor.


----------



## Niebur3




----------



## ErinH

OnYrMrk said:


> Erin, I am looking forward to hearing your car and this new install. I would love for you to give me some of your time to listen to mine as well. I will be at the Georgia show this year, not as a judge, but this time, as a competitor.


Cool! I look forward to seeing you there!


----------



## ErinH

A little more progress this past weekend. 

About 80% of the car is back together. Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, finally.


The OEM carpet has seen better days so while I had the rear interior out I went ahead and overlaid some black speaker box carpet I already had on hand from PE. Good stuff for this since it's cheap but durable. I also spent some time cleaning up the trim panels and getting the multiple years' worth of CLD asphalt off which was fun. *Tip: Use a little scrub brush with Folex Cleaner and it'll make the job much easier than using goo-gone and a rag* 

The car actually doesn't look 12 years old now... looks more like 9. But, hey, it's an improvement. 

























Moving on... 

I carpeted the kicks and managed to install the drivers side kick and woofer. Passenger side kick will be installed this week, time permitting. 

I’m using a JL Audio SGRU-12 12" speaker grille to protect the woofers. I had a different design using 14 gauge steel but after building it I realized it wasn’t going to work out so the JL Grille option seemed like a no-brainer at this point. For the JL grille to attach to the baffle, I drilled holes around the perimeter of the driver and sunk a lot of neo magnets in the baffle. Now the grille is held in place via magnet for quick access and solid protection. It's probably my favorite install-related thing in this car... snapping that grille on/off the baffle is a joy that is only rivaled by vacuuming. 












Some behind the scenes things like thick memory foam padding on the front floorboards for cushion (not really for anti-vibration at your feet purposes; that’s taken care of via the mounting of the kick panels to the car via extruded butyl rope) are hidden but here's a picture of what I used before I cut it to size. Twenty bucks at Bath and Body Works. 














I also purchased a microfiber weather mat to throw down on the floor. I can toss it in the washer as needed.












And the end result:
















I took more pictures along the way but it’s most likely stuff no one cares about so that does it for now.


----------



## naiku

ErinH said:


> It's probably my favorite install-related thing in this car... snapping that grille on/off the baffle is a joy that is only rivaled by vacuuming.


That satisfying "click" as the grill snaps to the magnets!!


----------



## captainobvious

ErinH said:


> I took more pictures along the way but it’s most likely stuff no one cares about so that does it for now.




I care Erin.

ME.


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> I care Erin.
> 
> ME.


LOL. You had me at hello. 

Ok. I'll post a few extras for you. Since you haven't already seen them.


----------



## ErinH

naiku said:


> That satisfying "click" as the grill snaps to the magnets!!


Right on! 

I even made a video. That's how childishly-amused I am.


----------



## HeyWaj10

bigbubba said:


> I'll bet there is not an open cavity in the car that hasn't been filled with spray foam.


Well now, that's just some real world car audio dirty talk, right there...


----------



## HeyWaj10

Erin - the install is looking fantastic so far! Got any tips on properly and "safely" removing interior carpeting without messing things up? I'm hesitant to pull mine up for running RCAs down the center like you have, but I'm strapped for space along the side rail for another 2ch set of RCAs.


----------



## naiku

ErinH said:


> Right on!
> 
> I even made a video. That's how childishly-amused I am.


That might be the best thing I see all day. Well, OK 2nd best (middle son is competing in the regional spelling bee later today, already won the county).


----------



## ErinH

HeyWaj10 said:


> Got any tips on properly and "safely" removing interior carpeting without messing things up? I'm hesitant to pull mine up for running RCAs down the center like you have, but I'm strapped for space along the side rail for another 2ch set of RCAs.


I just saw you started a thread on this so I'll reply there.


----------



## bbfoto

I'm always interested to see what car audio craziness will ensue in the neverending adventures of 'Bama Boy & his foam-filled Civic.


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> I'm always interested to see what car audio craziness will ensue in the neverending adventures of 'Bama Boy & his foam-filled Civic.


You get a foam, you get a foam.... every body here gets a foooooooooaaaaaaaaam!!!!!!!


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

nice!


----------



## ErinH

Passenger side is now complete. I have to say, I’m really happy with how these kicks look combined with the black floor carpeting. It ain’t the snazzy install they were before but they blend in better and don’t draw attention to themselves which is exactly what I wanted. 

First up, memory foam to make my passengers (if there ever are any) feel all comfy. 











A picture of the hole the drivers will be venting through. That’s a 4” hole straight through the firewall. And that’s my tire on the other side. 













In the words of Van Halen: “I’m talking some new kicks, ones like you ain’t never seen”...










































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blu

Kicks are looking really nice!

Loved the _Mean Street_ reference... :laugh:


----------



## benny z

Erin,

Nice hole.


----------



## ErinH

Blu said:


> Kicks are looking really nice!
> 
> Loved the _Mean Street_ reference... :laugh:


Thanks!

And glad you liked the reference. 





benny z said:


> Erin,
> 
> Nice hole.


Ummmm.... let's keep our private life... private. :laugh:


----------



## HeyWaj10

ErinH said:


> A picture of the hole the drivers will be venting through. That’s a 4” hope straight through the firewall. And that’s my tire on the other side.


Excuse my complete ignorance here - but how does that work? Does that hole get sealed up, or is it designed to be free to the external environment like that?


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

HeyWaj10 said:


> Excuse my complete ignorance here - but how does that work? Does that hole get sealed up, or is it designed to be free to the external environment like that?


What keeps the outside elements from tearing up the back of the driver. The concept of venting to the exterior is nice if you can hide it properly, but tearing up $$$ woofers and replacing every couple of months...


----------



## HeyWaj10

Huckleberry Sound said:


> What keeps the outside elements from tearing up the back of the driver. The concept of venting to the exterior is nice if you can hide it properly, but tearing up $$$ woofers and replacing every couple of months...


Right, I can understand that grill providing physical protection to a degree, but what about water kick back from tires, general moisture, small debris, etc.?


----------



## ErinH

There’s a layer of grille cloth and a plastic shield of sorts that I add to the backside (it came off in the process in this latest iteration) to help with anything other than water. The shield sits off the firewall on the outside of the car about 1 inch, and is rounded so it protects from water/debris splashing directly in to the enclosure space while providing enough space for the driver to breathe outside unimpeded. I posted pictures of them loooooong ago in my previous build log. Photobucket may have eaten those pictures by now, though. 

For as long as I have been running kick drivers (2008 or so) there has been this vent. I’ve never had to replace a driver due to the concerns you guys raised. I ran a set of JL ZR800’s for nearly three years and when it came time to change the install, I took them out, cleaned them up and sold them here. And as far as water is concerned, there’s none splashing directly on the driver. Ultimately, it’s no more exposure than door speakers getting water on them.


----------



## HeyWaj10

That's really interesting, thanks for clarifying. The point of it being similar to speakers inside the door makes a lot of sense. The final product of those kicks looks awesome!


----------



## ErinH

HeyWaj10 said:


> That's really interesting, thanks for clarifying. The point of it being similar to speakers inside the door makes a lot of sense. The final product of those kicks looks awesome!


No problem. And Thanks!


----------



## captainobvious

HeyWaj10 said:


> Right, I can understand that grill providing physical protection to a degree, but what about water kick back from tires, general moisture, small debris, etc.?



Another method for ensuring they stay mostly free from moisture is to wrap the grill of the hole in a fabric which is soaked in an aquaphobic treatment like Scotchguard. This allows the fabric to pass air so the woofer can vent properly, yet block moisture from entering. It works quite well.


----------



## naiku

Yep, thanks for posting that info about venting outside. I kept meaning to ask in Steve's build log about how do you protect the equipment from the elements with his sub venting out through (IIRC) the spare tire well.


----------



## benny z

In all seriousness... is your hole big enough?

I ask only because I recall reading (somewhere) that to be effectively IB without choking, you need a hole that is at least 60% of the cone size of the driver. ?


----------



## ErinH

benny z said:


> In all seriousness... is your hole big enough?
> 
> I ask only because I recall reading (somewhere) that to be effectively IB without choking, you need a hole that is at least 60% of the cone size of the driver. ?



yes, it is. I ran an impedance sweep on the driver in free air vs in the kick and the result was basically the same. 

Even if Qts had increased a bit it wouldn’t have been enough to really matter because the Fs is in the low 20’s and I’ll be crossing well above that.


----------



## benny z

Cool!


----------



## HeyWaj10

captainobvious said:


> Another method for ensuring they stay mostly free from moisture is to wrap the grill of the hole in a fabric which is soaked in an aquaphobic treatment like Scotchguard. This allows the fabric to pass air so the woofer can vent properly, yet block moisture from entering. It works quite well.


Odd how that works, but interesting and good tip nonetheless. 



ErinH said:


> yes, it is. I ran an impedance sweep on the driver in free air vs in the kick and the result was basically the same.
> 
> Even if Qts had increased a bit it wouldn’t have been enough to really matter because the Fs is in the low 20’s and I’ll be crossing well above that.


Physics!...which is what I struggle with and why I have no idea why I'm even in this hobby


----------



## ErinH

benny z said:


> In all seriousness... is your hole big enough?
> 
> I ask only because I recall reading (somewhere) that to be effectively IB without choking, you need a hole that is at least 60% of the cone size of the driver. ?





ErinH said:


> yes, it is. I ran an impedance sweep on the driver in free air vs in the kick and the result was basically the same.
> 
> Even if Qts had increased a bit it wouldn’t have been enough to really matter because the Fs is in the low 20’s and I’ll be crossing well above that.






A bit more info...

I tested this out back when I had the Illusion C10's in the sealed enclosures I built and was going to go IB with them the same way the Scans are IB'd now (funny how installs can come full circle). You can find the talk starting here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/3999810-post1354.html


But here's the test and results:



ErinH said:


> Re: Kicks
> 
> 
> When I first got these woofers I considered (briefly) running them IB, through the 4" hole already cut in the firewall from the previous builds. But two things kept me from doing that: 1) I worried about water damage to the speakers and they're not cheap, 2) I didn't think a 4" hole would be large enough to not impede the woofer. Therefore, I went through with building the enclosures. As you guys know, I've since realized that was a bad idea, at least on the driver's side due to the amount of footspace it consumed. The tactile bothered me, even though some didn't even notice it in demos. And the floor height was OK for daily drives but for long drives it became cramped.
> 
> I pulled the dash out, looked around, and decided that my wild dream of building the enclosure up the firewall (as opposed to out on the floor like it is) wasn't going to be feasible without having the car down for a while... and I don't have the luxury of having a backup car to drive while it's down.
> 
> This weekend I got frustrated with the internal dilemma of how I was going to pull the sealed enclosure off and just said "screw it, I'll vent it out the car and deal with it getting weathered". I mean, it's the big brother of the c6 and c8 which are both made for car door environments so this is no different.
> 
> Of course, I didn't know if it would work well vented outside the car so I decided to do some testing to see just if the 4" hole in the firewall would indeed be large enough for the woofer's Qt(c) to not be changed significantly. The easiest way to test this was to pull the enclosure out of the car, cut the 4" hole out of the back of it (where it would mate up to the existing 4" hole in the firewall), and do an impedance sweep and compare the *Qts (free-air Q of the woofer itself)* vs *Qtc (enclosure+woofer Q)*. If the Qtc looked much different from the Qts then I'd know it won't work.
> 
> 
> First I swept the sub with my Dayton DATS to get the impedance curve for determining the Qts.
> Next I pulled the enclosure from the car. I weighed it out of curiosity... 26 lbs. That's pretty darn heavy for mostly fiberglass enclosure.
> I filled the inside of the enclosure with foam to make sure the woofer would be sealed off from the 'extension' part of the enclosure.
> Then I cut out the 4" hole from the enclosure's backside.
> Then I mounted the C10 in the enclosure and swept the driver again to get the Qtc.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a few pictures:
> 
> 4" hole cut.
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> 
> Mounted for testing.
> 
> [snipped]





ErinH said:


> *So now, the real important stuff...*
> 
> *Impedance comparison:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Impedance Analysis:*
> The free-air impedance is in green.
> The in-enclosure impedance is in orange.
> The free-air sweep yielded a Qts of 0.45. The in-enclosure sweep yielded a Qtc of 0.46. So, the difference is negligible. By Qts alone, the 4" hole is indeed large enough to not impede the woofer's motion in any way and thus would have enough 'volume' behind it to be considered IB. Sweet!
> 
> 
> 
> _But that's not all that matters_... the actual impedance 'curve' needs to be evaluated.




You can go back to those posts to read more if you want but that kind of summarizes the testing I did (again) with the Scans to see how the enclosure could alter the response.


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> Another method for ensuring they stay mostly free from moisture is to wrap the grill of the hole in a fabric which is soaked in an aquaphobic treatment like Scotchguard. This allows the fabric to pass air so the woofer can vent properly, yet block moisture from entering. It works quite well.


You mentioned that to me in the 'other' chat a few days ago and based on that, I had plans to cut some of the 14gauge perforated steel I have in to a circle that will fit in to the firewall hole and cover that with grille cloth sprayed as you stated above. I got in a hurry to finish the kicks up and skipped that step. I might go back and do that after the NC meet next month.


----------



## bertholomey

captainobvious said:


> Another method for ensuring they stay mostly free from moisture is to wrap the grill of the hole in a fabric which is soaked in an aquaphobic treatment like Scotchguard. This allows the fabric to *pass air* so the woofer can vent properly, yet block moisture from entering. It works quite well.


Passing Air in Erin's thread


----------



## ErinH

bertholomey said:


> Passing Air in Erin's thread




Ugh. Millennial.


----------



## mumbles

Looking forward to drooling on your kicks at Jasons GTG 

Ok, well not literally...


----------



## ErinH

mumbles said:


> Looking forward to drooling on your kicks at Jasons GTG
> 
> Ok, well not literally...


Haha. Well, I don’t think they’re to that level. But l appreciate the sentiment.


----------



## ErinH

Danny DeVito!!!! I see you looking!!!


----------



## danno14

mumbles said:


> Looking forward to drooling on your kicks at Jasons GTG
> 
> ..



Lmao! 
That sounds almost pornographic! :surprised:


----------



## BigAl205

mumbles said:


> Looking forward to drooling on your kicks at Jasons GTG
> 
> Ok, well not literally...


If by "kicks" you mean shoes, and by "drooling" you mean urinating, I'd pay to see that.


----------



## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> If by "kicks" you mean shoes, and by "drooling" you mean urinating, I'd pay to see that.


He's alive!


----------



## BigAl205

Barely


----------



## mumbles

BigAl205 said:


> If by "kicks" you mean shoes, and by "drooling" you mean urinating, I'd pay to see that.


Alan! Any update on the VAC? Would be great to see you at Jasons!


----------



## doitor

ErinH said:


> Danny DeVito!!!! I see you looking!!!




J.


----------



## BigAl205

mumbles said:


> Alan! Any update on the VAC? Would be great to see you at Jasons!


----------



## captainobvious

Looking forward to hearing what those new Skar Audio mids can do in your car Erin.


----------



## bigbubba

Skar Audio?


----------



## ErinH

bigbubba said:


> Skar Audio?


You know I'm a big Disney fan. So it makes sense.





Psyche! We are just kidding.


----------



## gumbeelee

captainobvious said:


> Looking forward to hearing what those new Skar Audio mids can do in your car Erin.


Are u seriousely putting skar audio mids in your car or is this just an inside joke? I thought that skar stuff was for bass heads? BTW NICE WORK AS ALWAYS!!


----------



## SQram

I wanna see the Veritas horns go in, I know you had a set several years ago...


----------



## ErinH

SQram said:


> I wanna see the Veritas horns go in, I know you had a set several years ago...


Not I. Never owned any horns myself (well, not for the car, at least). Tried a few. Tested a set a couple years ago. I do remember looking in to the Veritas at one point maybe a couple years ago... may have even PM'd you about them? Never owned any, though. I've posted about it before... I don't really like the traditional car audio type horn/waveguides. Just not my cup of tea.


----------



## ErinH

gumbeelee said:


> Are u seriousely putting skar audio mids in your car or is this just an inside joke? I thought that skar stuff was for bass heads? BTW NICE WORK AS ALWAYS!!


haha. nah, it's just a joke, man. Though, heck, I should've ran with it.


----------



## SQram

ErinH said:


> Not I. Never owned any horns myself (well, not for the car, at least). Tried a few. Tested a set a couple years ago. I do remember looking in to the Veritas at one point maybe a couple years ago... may have even PM'd you about them? Never owned any, though. I've posted about it before... I don't really like the traditional car audio type horn/waveguides. Just not my cup of tea.


Yeah, you PM'ed me many moons ago about a set that were up for sale here. I guess you didn't buy them afterall...


----------



## gumbeelee

ErinH said:


> haha. nah, it's just a joke, man. Though, heck, I should've ran with it.



I thought so, for a moment there I was like what the hell, Skar audio, aka basshead brand, has SQ mids. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

Nah, no Skar audio. Steve, quit stirring up rumors!!!! LOL


I'll post a picture of everything when I finish out the pillars. Just wanted to wait until they were completely done so I could take a picture of the front of the car as a whole.


----------



## Mic10is

ErinH said:


> Not I. Never owned any horns myself (well, not for the car, at least). Tried a few. Tested a set a couple years ago. I do remember looking in to the Veritas at one point maybe a couple years ago... may have even PM'd you about them? Never owned any, though. I've posted about it before... I don't really like the traditional car audio type horn/waveguides. Just not my cup of tea.


So you're finally using those ID full size bodies that you showed me back a few yrs ago when we were tuning at your house before meca finals in AL....


----------



## ErinH

Mic10is said:


> So you're finally using those ID full size bodies that you showed me back a few yrs ago when we were tuning at your house before meca finals in AL....




Dude!? You said you wouldn’t tell!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## captainobvious

gumbeelee said:


> Are u seriousely putting skar audio mids in your car or is this just an inside joke? I thought that skar stuff was for *bass heads*? BTW NICE WORK AS ALWAYS!!



He does have 10's in kicks and a pair of 15's in the trunk... :surprised:


----------



## captainobvious

ErinH said:


> Nah, no Skar audio. Steve, quit stirring up rumors!!!! LOL




Guilty as charged. Sorry guys, you know Erin wouldn't run that junk.


But seriously I am looking forward to checking out those SoundSplinter mids in the pillars. I didn't think you'd be able to get them in there with the size of the magnets on them. 
How's the team discount on that gear?


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> Guilty as charged. Sorry guys, you know Erin wouldn't run that junk.
> 
> 
> But seriously I am looking forward to checking out those SoundSplinter mids in the pillars. I didn't think you'd be able to get them in there with the size of the magnets on them.
> How's the team discount on that gear?


:laugh:

Oh, man...

I literally laughed out loud.


----------



## ErinH

Alright. I finally got the speaker grilles for my pillars made and took a few photos of the complete front of the car. 


The driver I'm using is the BMS 5cn162. A 5 inch pro-audio coaxial driver with compression driver in lieu of the typical tweeter-coaxial designs:
Overview


And I love them. I have been eyeing these for a couple years now and I bought them late last Summer. I tested them out for a bit in my home and after being amazed by them there, I moved them to the car. I won't wax poetic here about them but I will share some quick reasons why I chose them:
a) Concentric Design yields excellent coherency in both tonality but more importantly (to me) soundstage. Though, the termination between the cone and the compression driver isn't perfect, it's a tradeoff I can live with.
b) High efficiency/power handling. For a high output system the typical limiting factor is either the midbass or the tweeter. I already covered why I chose the midbass I did. The tweeter - a compression driver - is spec'd at 110dB but that's thanks to the horn loading. If you ignore that aspect they're still 100dB. The mid is quite sensitive, too. 
c) Waveguide. The compression driver fires through a 'tube' of sorts and uses the midrange cone as a waveguide. In my experience a good coaxial/concentric design has excellent polar response and the directivity ('directivity' being how narrow or wide the dispersion pattern is; depending on the design) of this driver, seems to line up well for in-car use.
d) 'Real'. These are easily the most dynamic and life-like sounding drivers I've laid ears on yet. There were literally times during my demoing that I laughed because they were just _that _good. 

That's kind of the highlights. 


Overall what I was wanting was a similar experience the Kef's gave me but with more output. The Kefs were lower sensitivity (I think about 85dB for both mid and tweeter) and the midrange cone was very sensitive to damage; at one point I buckled the cone because I had a system malfunction and the mid went 'bbbbbraaappppp'. The kef's mids had to be crossed high (>350hz for me) to handle the output I wanted. What I didn't want was the typical car audio horn (as mentioned above, I'm just not a fan). 


Drawbacks: Since I have space in the pillar I figured why not try these out but, still, size wise, these suckers are pretty large. I'd say close to the size of the Kefs (which used a HUGE ferrite magnet). Imagine a typical 5.25" midrange and then slap a compression driver on the back of the magnet and that's what you have with these speakers. Super high sensitivity of the compression driver coupled with them being at ear level means any noise in the system is going to be heard; the same goes for all high sensitivity drivers. Figure most amps are in the 80-90dB SNR range at 1w (I'm not talking full rated power which is something else altogether and a non-issue in regards to this specific topic). That means if you have a speaker that is in the 80's (at 1w/1m) sensitivity you're just at that threshold of hearing the noise. But the higher you go in sensitivity above that, the more likely you are to hear the noise from the component(s) in the chain. Though, with the right gain settings and/or high SNR the issue is mitigated and there's still oodles of volume. 





Moving on...

After I settled on these drivers and how I wanted them aimed it was a matter of installing them. I have a buddy who CNC'd me some speaker rings with a removable inset-ring. I had too much on my plate as it was so I took the car up to the folks at Audio X (Florence, AL) and we played with the aiming a bit more. Settled on a position. They made a quick mock up of the placement and then I left my pillars with them for a couple weeks and picked them up at a later time. 


Here's some photos of all the above...


----------



## ErinH

And here they are installed as of yesterday:































































Grilles off:











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## beak81champ

Wow, for the size of those, the grills seem to make them disappear. Great job by Audio X on the pillars. I dig the look of this current iteration of your front stage.


----------



## ErinH

beak81champ said:


> Wow, for the size of those, the grills seem to make them disappear. Great job by Audio X on the pillars. I dig the look of this current iteration of your front stage.


Yea, that was my one requirement going in to this build. Before I even ordered the speakers I contacted John (the guy with the CNC) about cutting me the rings and a press-fit adapter. I knew I didn't want the speakers exposed for a number of reasons. 

I've been driving around the last couple weeks with the speakers exposed. I found a few minutes yesterday while my family was making a grocery store run to knock out the grilles and when I put them in I was like "okay, this is nice!". It makes a world of difference, like you said, in how they make the speakers disappear (as much as they can, at least).


----------



## Niebur3

Very nice job! What material is the pillar covered with?


----------



## ErinH

Niebur3 said:


> Very nice job! What material is the pillar covered with?


Here you go:
https://www.albrightssupply.com/Automotive-Headliner-Black-Knit-p/weh2300.htm

I ordered it and gave it to them to cover the pillars with.


----------



## captainobvious

Very nice. Those came out great!


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Loving it. Can't wait to get listen. As your Kef setup was my fav in your car.


----------



## bigbubba

That looks badass man. Need to figure out a way to meet up and give it a listen.


----------



## casey

those are pretty badass! What were they intended for initially? Home theater or something else?


----------



## Weightless

Looks nice Erin. Do you have a shot centerline on the dash with the grills on taken from the backseat? No need to do a Vanna White pose.





Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## danno14

Weightless said:


> Looks nice Erin. Do you have a shot centerline on the dash with the grills on taken from the backseat? No need to do a Vanna White pose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk



What?!!! Don’t let him off the hook like that! 

He’s gotta find the right “Vanna” dress first!

??????


----------



## SSSnake

NICE!!! I wanted to go that route but couldn't find a coaxial implementation I liked. Those BMSs are better than all I found. Even if I had found them, I don't think I could have gotten them on my dash. A+ for component selection and implementation.


----------



## danno14

Considerably less obtrusive than I would have expected, given the driver size/depth 
But along the lines of what I have seen come from Steve and yourself when you collaborate. Nicely done amigo!


----------



## Mic10is

Totally counts as you now using horns


----------



## BigAl205

I got to hold them 












I can't wait to hear it!


----------



## ErinH

Mic10is said:


> Totally counts as you now using horns


For sure. But that was never an issue. I already use horns in my HT.


----------



## ErinH

Weightless said:


> Looks nice Erin. Do you have a shot centerline on the dash with the grills on taken from the backseat? No need to do a Vanna White pose.




I took one with those others. Just didn’t post it. So here ya go. Any particular reason you ask? You wondering about aiming or just wanted to see what it looked like?

Sorry. No Vanna White. I don’t do selfies anymore since “the incident”. :worried:


----------



## Weightless

More for aesthetic reasons than anything else. I couldn't tell aiming with the grills on if i tried, lol. 

Looks sharp. Man I would love to have a listen. I love me some pointsource drivers.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> I got to hold them


yes. yes you did. though, I do wish it had been me you held instead. :blush:


----------



## ErinH

Weightless said:


> More for aesthetic reasons than anything else. I couldn't tell aiming with the grills on if i tried, lol.
> 
> Looks sharp. Man I would love to have a listen. I love me some pointsource drivers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk




Gotcha. I was going to say the picture doesn't help much in that regard but if you needed I could try to describe it to you as best I could.

Yea, pointsource drivers definitely have their pros. A couple cons but like all speakers, you find the one that best fits your application.


----------



## ErinH

SSSnake said:


> NICE!!! I wanted to go that route but couldn't find a coaxial implementation I liked. Those BMSs are better than all I found. Even if I had found them, I don't think I could have gotten them on my dash. A+ for component selection and implementation.


Thanks. I've been staring at these for a while now. Trying to find something that leveraged my wants and would integrate well wasn't easy but I remembered these and thought to myself, "eh, I'll give 'em a whirl".


















danno14 said:


> Considerably less obtrusive than I would have expected, given the driver size/depth
> But along the lines of what I have seen come from Steve and yourself when you collaborate. Nicely done amigo!


Thanks, dude! Yea. The civic's little pillar pockets definitely helps them stay out of the line of sight. No way these would have worked if not for that. 

And I'm enjoying those subs!


----------



## Blu

That full frontal shot from the back seat is awesome! 

Really great job of incorporating some fairly large speakers and being quite inconspicuous. :thumbsup:


----------



## ErinH

casey said:


> those are pretty badass! What were they intended for initially? Home theater or something else?


Missed this earlier. 

Not 100% sure what you're asking. Are you asking what the design purpose of the driver is? If so, in general they're known as a pro-audio company but I'd say their drivers' uses are pretty universal. Lots of home audio/theater guys run their compression drivers on waveguides. Some people here have used their compression drivers on some of the car-audio-purposed waveguides. I think it's like any other speaker. If it fits the application then it has a purpose there. 

I've said this to a few of my friends so they're going to hear it again... I've been a fan of their products dating back to when I started using the Klippel and I read their test results published in Voice Coil magazine. The manufacturer, IMHO, is the Scanspeak of Pro-Audio drivers. Meaning they design and manufacture their stuff themselves and seem to make some of the best drivers in the pro-audio driver realm which the data backs it up. I'd been looking for an excuse to try some of their products.


----------



## ErinH

Blu said:


> That full frontal shot from the back seat is awesome!
> 
> Really great job of incorporating some fairly large speakers and being quite inconspicuous. :thumbsup:


Thanks, man! Much appreciated!

There's definitely things about the overall aesthetic of the interior that I would change but I may very well be getting a new vehicle this time next year so I am doing my best not to spend any more money on things like that for this car. But as far as the speakers go, I just wanted to do the best I could with the space I have. The pillar pockets help a lot when it comes to using large drivers on the dash and since I'm venting the midbass drivers outside of the car I didn't need any real enclosure space. I'd say it "just worked out" but that's kind of understating all the _years _of work and probably 10 different builds that got me to this current iteration. I figure I'm averaging a new build per year. LOL.


----------



## Blu

ErinH said:


> I'd say it "just worked out" but that's kind of understating all the _years _of work and probably 10 different builds that got me to this current iteration. I figure I'm averaging a new build per year. LOL.


Like the old adage says _"The more I practice, the luckier I get"_


----------



## captainobvious

Those are not obtrusive and in fact blend quite remarkably up there. From the centerline shot, it doesn't appear these have any impact on visibility whatsoever. That's pretty outstanding considering their size and location. 
I don't think I'll be able to "hide" my drivers quite as effectively hahaha.


----------



## Niebur3

Erin, 

What point are the drivers aimed at? It almost looks like the Passenger side is aimed slightly more toward the driver, but it is really hard to tell and that could just be the pic or my eyes.


----------



## ErinH

That’s it. The drivers side is a bit more off-axis while the passenger side is more on-axis. That helps balance the treble between sides the “analog way”.


----------



## casey

You answered what I was asking thanks. They are definitely a unique driver and the integration into the pillars is top notch considering their size. Looking forward to hearing it soon


----------



## thehatedguy

High efficiency drivers...next thing will be Class A amps...

Oh the rabbit hole goes deep.


----------



## I'm not new

Looks great!


----------



## ErinH

thehatedguy said:


> High efficiency drivers...next thing will be Class A amps...
> 
> Oh the rabbit hole goes deep.




Already own a big boy mc. I think I’m already at the bottom of the rabbit hole. Trying to work my way back up.


----------



## Truthunter

ErinH said:


> Already own a big boy mc. I think I’m already at the bottom of the rabbit hole. Trying to work my way back up.


Well your journey to the bottom of the rabbit hole has resulted in a lot of learned wisdom that you have shared with us all. So thanks for going there and sharing


----------



## thehatedguy

So you think...

Class A on high efficiency drivers is the way to go.


----------



## SSSnake

> So you think...
> 
> Class A on high efficiency drivers is the way to go.


You are a GaN amp owner. Curious how you would compare the SQ of the GaN amp against a class A. Specifically the audibility of crossover distortion on a GaN amp (obviously non class A) on HE drivers.


----------



## thehatedguy

I have not had the chance to compare them yet.

The plan was to use the Tru Class A on the horns and bridge one of the SD amps pn each midbass and one on the sub since all speakers are 8 ohm. If the SD is close to the Tru on the horns, I'll use one on the horns too...which would make a lot of things a lot easier install wise.


----------



## ErinH

I was wondering the same thing since I saw your stack of GaN amps you posted the other day. Was wondering how you were going to use the GaN since you are using high sensitivity drivers too. 

And yea, the uber high sensitivity is one tradeoff I mentioned earlier. I have asked a couple friends about borrowing a class a amp to try on the compression drivers to see if the difference is worth the switch both in time and money. I may just not bother. But we will see.


----------



## Elgrosso

Wow you use the BMS I missed that!
I contacted the US importer last year but he didn't have anything in stock.
I think the one I planned was the 5CN160, just because it seemed a little more compact, deeper but smaller CD.
Don't know why I dropped the idea, they could be great in my kicks.

For the classe A which one do you plan to get, a real classe A or a high bias one?
The Steg MSK was absolutely wonderfull with the horns. I had hard time to decide which drivers to power with it, HE mids or horns. And now with regular drivers it's the same so I went back with a passive block to put mids and tweeters on it.
It’s an A/B but with external adjustable bias, so can be in A up to 50W.


----------



## ErinH

Yep. I contacted the US distributor a couple years ago about the 5CN162 and the dude didn't even know about the driver. Took me a while but I finally came back around to it and ordered the pair. At the time they were the only two he had; one was used but I bought them anyway. There's another fellow who uses the 5cn160 but doesn't post here anymore. I pinged him a couple years back to ask what he thought of them. I chose the 5cn162, though, because the specs looked a bit better (namely power handling on the CD, and depth was a bit smaller).


I gotta break this up a bit because it's a cluster to read through if I don't, so bear with me...



On to amps... 

*JL VXi Amplifiers:*
So, now that JL has announced the new VXi amps I can say that I was part of the beta testing team and have been using a pair of vxi 1000/5's and a single vxi1000/1 for my system. 

The VXi 5's are set up for individual amps for the left and right side of the front stage. Each 5 _was_ bridged on the 4 channels to provide 200w to the highs, mids and 400w to the midbass. Then the 1000/1 is for subs. This changed a bit which I'll cover below.

Overall my impression of the VXi amps are:
Great amps. Extremely small and plenty of power. Built in DSP is very nice. Lots of information about them is covered here in this thread so I'll just leave it at that:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sion/389898-jl-vxi-amps.html?highlight=jl+vxi






*Compression Driver amp change:*
As was discussed above, the SNR issues faced by us in car audio who use high sensitivity compression drivers is a problem and the higher the sensitivity the more troublesome the noise (hiss) of the system is. I can't really fault the manufacturer of the amps, per se, because I doubt they were designing their amps for these particular cases with uber-sensitive drivers. But I still had to do something because the hiss was louder than I could accept. So, I picked up an amp geared for the compression drivers. The amp I'm using for the compression driver of the 5cn162 is a Soundstream Reference 300. It was modified by Gordon Taylor (The Amp Doctor | The Amp Doctor). I bought it used on eBay. It was modified to work specifically with high sensitivity compression drivers. I asked the seller what specific mods were made and he forwarded me the following info he received from Gordon:


> The 300 is now set up for horns - *I've dropped the power amp gain to improve signal to noise ratio which is now nudging 100dBA reference to 1 watt.* As standard this was around 86 so the 14dB improvement is around a 30x reduction in noise.
> 
> The preamp gain has also been reduced so you should be able to match levels with your midbass drivers when fed from a similar signal level. It's got one of the new LME chips in the preamp too and bipolar caps.
> 
> The distortion level at 1 watt is an infintessimal 0.0016% as it's still mostly running in class A at that point. 1 watt equates to pretty high sound levels with horns ( 106 - 110dB spl) so any distortion won't be coming from the amp, and at anything but extreme listening levels you will be enjoying the warmth of Class A through the horns.
> 
> I put new connection screws in the 300 as the old ones were rusty and burred. And some pretty blue led's...



I made a post in THIS thread which kind of explains it a bit more of my logic but won't post it here since I don't want to junk it up further. 

I don't want people to get the wrong impression here. The JL amps' SNR is perfectly normal/acceptable for drivers with nominal sensitivity. Heck, it's close to the same as the SS amp was (before Gordon modified it). But the CDs being 110dB sensitive is an off-nominal case and needed an off-nominal solution, thus a modded amp was needed. I've run in to this issue with both my HT setup and in my recent car update. The amps I'm using for home are Crown XLS v2 and in the car I am using the JL Audio XVi amps. Both are perfectly acceptable for mid-sensitivity drivers (upper 80's to 90dB sensitivity). However, with my high sensitivity compression drivers (HT drivers are rated at >110dB and my new car drivers are 110dB) there's noise floor in both cases. 

With my HT I just deal with it since I don't use it as a critical listening room. The sounds of the movies override the hiss, I'm far enough away that it's not really bothersome, and I just don't want to pony up the cash for a home amplifier for 3 channels (L/C/R). But with the car, sitting so close, I needed to make a change to how I was powering them.

All that to say this:
I don't think the problem is inherent in Class D amps (or these VXi amps, specifically). Based on my research most amps have an SNR in the 80's at 1w; even some of the nicer Class AB amps. When it comes to compression drivers you don't care about the "SNR at rated power"; you'll never provide a 110dB sensitivity driver with 100 watts in your car so that spec is totally useless to you. You care about the SNR with little/no power applied which would be captured by a "SNR at 1w" type spec. So keep your eyes peeled for that. And good luck with getting that info. You'll probably have to email manufacturers to ask them what that spec is and IME you may not get a reply back at all. Which means, unfortunately, some dice rolling. Or finding a modified one like I did. 







*Current System Layout:
*So with the addition of the SS amp, now the system is currently set up like this:

Modded Soundstream Ref 300 powering the compression drivers
JL VXi1000/5 bridged for left midrange and subwoofer channel powering left midbass
JL VXi1000/5 bridged for right midrange and subwoofer channel powering right midbass
JL VXi1000/1 for subwoofers


No system noise. Overall, it works. I may revisit this configuration later but for the time being I don't have any complaints sonically so I'm gonna rock it for the upcoming NCSQ meet and revisit the layout afterward.


On a scale of 1 to 10 of my enjoyment factor of all my various systems in this car I'd put this sucker at a 20. It's on a different level vs my previous iterations. So much dang fun.


----------



## ErinH

I also added a new 55amp power supply to the car which is still hardwired to the system. Just plug an extension cord in to the outlet in the bottom of my rear bumper and I've got power. 



Here’s a couple pictures of the rear all buttoned up. Like I said above, the layout will change because the SS amp and the PS install were an '11th hour' install but it gets the job done for now.

SS Ref 300 amp:





















VXi amps in the spare tire well.













SS amp on the left and Iota 55 amp power supply on the right:


----------



## bbfoto

Looks great, Erin! And Yes Folks, that's why a lot of us are always on the hunt for the "best" Hi-End amplifier. Some can differ from others dramatically depending on the particular system setup and gain-staging. So yeah, sometimes it _IS_ about the specs.  Nice score on the G.T. mod'ed SS Reference 300! 


The Iota/CAE 55-watt PSU should work fine for you. I've stuck with the 45-Amp models because of their Maximum current draw when using a typical 120VAC/15A Household Edison circuit, and for use with a small portable Honda generator. I use these in my Grip & Lighting Equipment trucks as supplement power the 12VDC interior/exterior utility lighting and to keep the AUX batteries charged while "On Location"...think ambulance or fire truck lighting but without the flashers.

With the the Iota 55, you might be pushing the limits of a typical household 15A circuit, so you might find that you'll trip a breaker more often, especially if other things are plugged into the same circuit. Of course, your typical home will have several 20-Amp circuits available (usually for bathroom and kitchen, and sometimes garage).

At the same time, you might not have any problems at all. Obviously, it would only become an issue when the PSU is taxed and pushing max output, which will probably be very rare.

Thanks for sharing the updates! :thumbsup:


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## ErinH

I’m not concerned at all about the power supply. Remember, I had the 45 amp in the car before. Which was when I still had the McIntosh in the car (much lower efficiency than the JL amps). The reason I got a new one was because I thought the 45 amp had an issue. Turned out it didn’t. But I had already ordered the replacement. I only got the 55 amp because it was the best deal on Ebay at the time. I kept it because it was shinier. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SSSnake

Looks great! I love the VXi amps and if I didn't just purchase my fourth HD amp I would likely make the switch. One question about the noise floor with the HDs. Were/are you still running the HD-RLC for volume control? If so, I assume the hiss was not a minimum volume issue but rather at listening volume, correct? I am going to give the HD-RLC a go as a volume control in my car as the Pioneer AVIC 8200NEX doesn't have a knob but rather has buttons (not a big fan). This will obviously make using the steering wheel volume controls a little ore complex but I am invested now as I have already mounted the knob and pot.


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## ErinH

SSSnake said:


> Looks great! I love the VXi amps and if I didn't just purchase my fourth HD amp I would likely make the switch. One question about the noise floor with the HDs. Were/are you still running the HD-RLC for volume control? If so, I assume the hiss was not a minimum volume issue but rather at listening volume, correct? I am going to give the HD-RLC a go as a volume control in my car as the Pioneer AVIC 8200NEX doesn't have a knob but rather has buttons (not a big fan). This will obviously make using the steering wheel volume controls a little ore complex but I am invested now as I have already mounted the knob and pot.


I haven’t ran the HD amps in a while. I only ran the HD-RLC with the XDs, but I no longer use it for volume control. I only used that when I had a digital out headunit. Haven’t used the HD-RLC in a couple years. 

When I was using the HD and the XD amps I never had a hiss issue. It’s only been since I switched over to these compression drivers and I have only used the Xvi’s on them; never used the HD or XDs with these drivers. But to answer what I think you’re asking… the noise floor issue was not dependent on volume; even raising the gains on the amps didn’t really make the issue worse (no more than it would have with regular ol’ amps). It was the actual floor noise of the system made more apparent by the high sensitivity compression drivers. Turning the volume up didn’t make it worse. It would help drown it out, if anything. But at full tilt even if there was a soft passage, the noise was no worse than it was with no music playing. 


Not sure if that helps or not.


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## SSSnake

Got it. Thanks!


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## ErinH

SSSnake said:


> Got it. Thanks!


Ok. Good deal.


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## bigbubba

Ahhhh....didn't know you were running the new JL amps. What did you do with the Mc amp, hang it on the wall so you can admire it every time you walk in the house?


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## ErinH

Yea, been using the JL amps for a while as part of the beta test (along with several others). Just couldn’t talk about it. 

I’ve still got the mc amp. Was considering putting it back in but a) the JLs are doing a fine job and b) since I put the IB subs in I’ll have to find a new place for the mc and I don’t have time to figure that out before the NCSQ meet this weekend. 

But I might put it back in. Was thinking I could use it bridged for midranges and the sub channels for midbass if I do re-install it. I’d also like to play around with some other amps as well, though. 

You gonna be at the Vinny this weekend? I’m gonna try to stop by on my way home from NC. Or if the meet is canceled due to weather then I’ll probably still go to the Vinny. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

Forgot to post this up earlier when I mentioned the SS Ref amp. The guy I got the amp from also sent me the spec sheet from Gordon’s work on it. Just posting it for the folks who are in to this sort of thing.

According to the sheet the output runs as Class A up to about 0.8 watts so I'd wager I'm running Class A on the compression drivers the large majority - if not all - of the time. Edit: Not that I think Class A is the end-all, be-all of amplifier design. I was just mentioning this because I notice a lot of people care about the range of power an amplifier is running in Class A mode before switching to AB. I purchased this amp because of the modifications made to make it more compression driver friendly; namely the significantly increased SNR.


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## bigbubba

ErinH said:


> Yea, been using the JL amps for a while as part of the beta test (along with several others). Just couldn’t talk about it.
> 
> I’ve still got the mc amp. Was considering putting it back in but a) the JLs are doing a fine job and b) since I put the IB subs in I’ll have to find a new place for the mc and I don’t have time to figure that out before the NCSQ meet this weekend.
> 
> But I might put it back in. Was thinking I could use it bridged for midranges and the sub channels for midbass if I do re-install it. I’d also like to play around with some other amps as well, though.
> 
> You gonna be at the Vinny this weekend? I’m gonna try to stop by on my way home from NC. Or if the meet is canceled due to weather then I’ll probably still go to the Vinny.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'll be at The Vinny. I want to catch up with everyone and get some thoughts and suggestions for my new car. Not sure what I want to do with it yet. I hope you get to make it cause I really want to hear yours after all the updates as well as some others I haven't heard in a while.


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## Elgrosso

ErinH said:


> ...
> 
> But I might put it back in. Was thinking I could use it bridged for midranges and the sub channels for midbass if I do re-install it. I’d also like to play around with some other amps as well, though.
> ...


When I saw the pic of your trunk I immediately thought about a full reference rack. It’s maybe far from what you have in mind but just in case, if you want to try I could lend you these, could make a nice setup:


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## ErinH

That would be pretty sweet! I definitely appreciate the offer! I may take you up on that down the line if the offer is open, though, I just finished this stupid install and I'm so burnt out that I couldn't fathom redoing anything for a while. LOL.


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## Elgrosso

Cool if you like the idea, I’d be glad to give back a little after everything you did for us here and elsewhere.
I have a pile of stuff to sell but keep procrastinating so I can wait more no problem 
There’s a 300/500/500sx & 705, can give more details by MP if you need.


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## ErinH

Well, I genuinely appreciate the offer. That's really nice of you. I'll definitely keep it in mind. Thank you very much.


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## thehatedguy

The other thing you need to worry about with really sensitive drivers is the audibility of crossover distortion in a/b amps. Sounds really harsh on horns and such divers. Class A eliminates that distortion. It can be eliminated in a/b amps with a careful bias adjustment.


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## SSSnake

> The other thing you need to worry about with really sensitive drivers is the audibility of crossover distortion in a/b amps. Sounds really harsh on horns and such divers. Class A eliminates that distortion. It can be eliminated in a/b amps with a careful bias adjustment.


My *guess* would be the amp doc swapped an input op amp for a better one and adjusted the bias to get a larger output signal under class a operation (the note in the measurement sheet would seem to indicate this).


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## claydo

Really looking forward to hearing this thing in a couple of days! A demo in the civic is always fun, I'm thinking this new setup is gonna be right up my alley, with the massive step up in cone area........I loves me some cone area......already prepared for the sub envy.......


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## ErinH

I think you'll dig it, Clay.


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## knever3

I really appreciate the long-winded replies to this thread. The information is very helpful and insightful. I wish I was anywhere but Michigan because I would love to participate and listen to some of these amazing sound systems. Seems they don't make it to the Great Midwest very often. With two young kids it's difficult and selfish to drive 5 to 10 hours for any decent SQ meet.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

knever3 said:


> With two young kids it's difficult and selfish to drive 5 to 10 hours for any decent SQ meet.


I get it. When I used to travel for work I quit going to meets/shows for that reason. Mostly self-imposed guilt over leaving my family at home so I could go hang out with friends. But over time and as my little one got older that changed. 

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Maybe someday you can make it to a meet and bring your family along for the ride.


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## knever3

ErinH said:


> I get it. When I used to travel for work I quit going to meets/shows for that reason. Mostly self-imposed guilt over leaving my family at home so I could go hang out with friends. But over time and as my little one got older that changed.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the reply. Maybe someday you can make it to a meet and bring your family along for the ride.


Now that would be awesome! Looking forward to it! Now about that patience thing... something I severely lack LOL

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## tnaudio

Man I wish I could make it to the meet to hear your car. 

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

tnaudio said:


> Man I wish I could make it to the meet to hear your car.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


Dude! You were missed at the meet this weekend. Michael told me about you two going in to business together. Congrats, man! 

Hopefully I'll either see you in a couple weeks at Cook's show or at the HAT show again this summer. Take care, man, and congrats again on The Sound Factory.


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## naiku

ErinH said:


> I think you'll dig it, Clay.


I know I did. It sounds great, really impressive.

Thanks again for the help with the sub, once I put my DSP back together (or run over it, shoot it, set it on fire) I will go back to trying to integrate the sub a little better. Can you send me those test tones when you get a chance?


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## ErinH

naiku said:


> I know I did. It sounds great, really impressive.


Thanks, Ian. I appreciate it. Still a ways to go before I'm fully satisfied, but progress is being (attempted). 





naiku said:


> Thanks again for the help with the sub, once I put my DSP back together (or run over it, shoot it, set it on fire) I will go back to trying to integrate the sub a little better. Can you send me those test tones when you get a chance?



No problem, man! Wish we had been able to get it licked there but hopefully I gave you enough to go on. I would still recommend running a slow sine sweep and measuring the output of the subwoofer only because the problem I was hearing sounded more like it was out of the passband than in it. Though, aside from that I think you were able to get a feel for my 'process' (as loosely defined as an ADD person's process can be). I'm confident you'll get it taken care of pretty quickly, though.

For test tones, check this page:
Realm of Excursion

Or if you'd like I'll just drop my tuning disc in along with the shirts when I mail them to you. Might be a week or two but don't be afraid to remind me from time to time.


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## naiku

ErinH said:


> I'm confident you'll get it taken care of pretty quickly, though.


Just gotta remember to click "Connect" on the DSP!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## ErinH

naiku said:


> Just gotta remember to click "Connect" on the DSP!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## ErinH

At the NCSQ meet this past weekend I had a couple conversations about the headunit I’m running, which is a Pioneer 4200nex. I thought it might be beneficial to some people here if I mentioned a little bit about it in this build log.

Alright, so to reiterate, the headunit I’m using right now is the Pioneer AVH-4200NEX. 
https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/NEX/AVH-4200NEX

I purchased the 4200nex last Summer and have been using it since about August. It has since been discontinued but the 4201nex that replaced it looks practically the same in all regards. The following are my personal pros/cons. My pros may not matter to you but these are the reasons why I personally like this headunit.


*Pros:*

Two USB inputs: One USB port controls my iPhone 6s for CarPlay usage and the USB port other works with my iPod 5th gen video Classic which I’ve upgraded to 500gb storage. These two, the latter mainly, were the primary reasons I got this headunit. I use my phone for Apple Music (subscription based) which I adore. There are a lot of Apple CarPlay headunits available. However, there are not many headunits that will support both CarPlay and iPod Classic. I tried a few different manufacturers’ products and Pioneer is the only one I know of that has _both_ of these supported. And the best part is the two USB ports make it to where I don’t have to pick between which one I’m going to plug in. So I can have access to my huge music library on my iPod and then switch over to CarPlay for phone use. 
Also, when using my iPod Apple Maps (via CarPlay) still runs in the background and will alert me to changes. Side Note: I personally prefer Google Maps but for convenience it’s nice to have Apple Maps running through CarPlay while listening to my iPod classic. 
It plays CD/DVD which is nice when you want to give a demo because a lot of people still use discs for media.
It does play back FLAC. No, it doesn’t play Hi-Res but that’s not a selling feature to me anyway. 
I measured the pre-outs with an SMD DD-1 and found that above about 4.20Vrms was the clipping point on this headunit, which equated to about 40/40 on the volume.

*Cons:*

The detachable face vibrates. Even though this is only an annoyance when I'm driving and the music is off or if I’m pegging the bass and there’s no other music to drown it out, it’s still worth mentioning. I currently don’t have a trim ring around the headunit so maybe that would help shore it up some and keep it from vibrating. 
Occasionally, as in once every couple weeks, the headudnit will lose connection with my iphone 6s and I’ll have to unplug and then plug it back in. I see there’s been a FW update that I haven’t done so it’s possible it would address this. However, this issue could be the fault of my phone. It hasn’t bothered me enough to track it down.
I keep my iPod on shuffle and whenever I come back to it as a source it’ll start the shuffle all over (i.e., if it was on song number 38 before, when I switch back to it or restart the car it’ll pick up with a different song at song 1). This is a minor annoyance but not a deal breaker. And this could have as much to do with the sheer number of songs on my iPod (about 12k, with over half the library being lossless format).



I can’t say there are no other headunits on the market that will support both CarPlay and iPod Classic but I tried a few I thought might and they didn’t. So I sent those back. There may very well be others that have support for CarPlay and iPod Classic but I’m just not aware of them. I looked at the replacement for the 4200nex which is the current AVH-4201NEX model and it looks like it’ll support the iPod classic as well and I’d imagine some of their other AVH-NEX models do, too. So if you’re someone like me: someone who wanted both the luxury of CarPlay and the ability to have all your music on your iPod classic then I would recommend you look at these NEX offerings. The 4200next cost me about $500 and Pioneer was running a $100 MIR promotion at the time so for the price I couldn’t do better. Overall I’d say I’m about an 8.5/10 on happiness level with this headunit. I do wish it would have a nicer screen, maybe a capacitive screen but I can live without it given the price and iPod support.


----------



## chasingSQ

such an awesome build , im so glad i got to hear the awesomeness this past weekend , it sounds incredible , great job bikinipunk .


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## ErinH

audirsfaux said:


> such an awesome build , im so glad i got to hear the awesomeness this past weekend , it sounds incredible , great job bikinipunk .


LOL!

Thanks, man. It was nice to meet you in person at the meet. And more importantly, nice to finally understand that your screenname is the name of your car as opposed to a jab (I read it as "audis r faux"). Like you guys with the added "i" making bikinpunk become bikinIpunk, I removed a letter in your sn. So at least we all can't spell together. :laugh:


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## Notloudenuf

I enjoyed being able to listen at 32 out of 40


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## ErinH

Notloudenuf said:


> I enjoyed being able to listen at 32 out of 40


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## ca90ss

ErinH said:


> I purchased the 4200nex last Summer and have been using it since about August. It has since been discontinued but the 4201nex that replaced it looks practically the same in all regards.


I have a 7201nex and the only difference is it comes with a rear view camera. The HU itself is still a 7200nex.


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## ErinH

For those who don't already know and might be interested, there's a car audio focused podcast run by Klifton Keplinger and our own BennyZ called "SQology". You can find discussion about it here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/339250-sqology-podcast-5.html

The podcast episodes can be found on various outlets, such as iTunes:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/sqology-car-audio-podcast/id1231181088?mt=2
or SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/sqology


I've helped them do a couple episodes that have been recently released and thought some of my buddies here might be interested in listening. "Parkinson's Research II Event Wrap-Up" is a discussion about the SQology show at Hybrid Audio Technologies a few weeks ago and "feat. Jason Bertholomey" is an interview with my friend, Jason, who helps keep the NCSQ scene rolling each year with his grand scale meets.


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## ErinH

Some updates here...


First up, my one-year window for headunit ownership passed in August on the Pioneer 4200nex. Actually, a buddy of mine started a post on Facebook asking for DD headunit suggestions and many replied with positive things about the newer Kenwoods. My history with Kenwood has always been sub-par but I was curious. So with the help of another friend I got a good deal on the DDX9905s. 

There's a good thread on this headunit here (link) so I won't go too much in to detail in this post. But I will say that I'm quite happy with it. It's extremely fast when moving between menus/sources, sounds great and looks great. No real issues with visibility in sunlight, either.

I made a video regarding the USB load time and interface and posted it here if anyone is interested:


----------



## ErinH

ErinH said:


> I may revisit this configuration later...


I revisited the configuration. 

The mcintosh mc4000m is back in the car. I took it out last August to send in for a checkup and during that time I received the JL VXi amps as part of the beta test. I have no issues with the JL VXi amps; it was just time to put the Mc back in. 

I tried a couple designs and landed on this one, at least for now. The amp is mounted to a half-wall with cutouts on the side for the subs to still have plenty of airspace behind them. I have an LED strip running at the top-back of the amp wall to show off the subs a bit. I used a good bit of cardboard to get the shape of the trim panel and then transferred the template over to some ¼” pegboard (it’s what I had on hand), then carpeted it. The goal was to let the amp kind of ‘speak for itself’ but also not let the subs get lost in the install. Overall I’m pretty happy with how it turned out. 


So the system power breakdown currently is:
BMS compression drivers – Powered by the Soundstream amp
BMS midrange – Powered by 4 channels, bridged, of the MC4000M
Scan Midbass – Powered by the subwoofer channels of the MC4000M
AE IB15’s – Powered by JL HD750/1


And now it’s time to set gains and get it tuned up for finals.


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## schmiddr2

I like what you did there. A partial trunk wall for air flow and enough room for that monster amp.


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## D34dl1fter

Looking forward to it, will be there from Thursday on....


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## ErinH

D34dl1fter said:


> Looking forward to it, will be there from Thursday on....


I'll be there mid-Friday afternoon.


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## benny z

What a party it’s a gonna be!


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## ErinH

That list ain't no joke. Any of those names could win our class. It's gonna be a feat just to break in to the Top 5. I'm more looking forward to seeing everyone, getting and giving some demos. Should be a fun time.


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## AVIDEDTR

ErinH said:


> That list ain't no joke. Any of those names could win our class. It's gonna be a feat just to break in to the Top 5. I'm more looking forward to seeing everyone, getting and giving some demos. Should be a fun time.


that's a "I'm ****ting my pants" kinda list


----------



## bbfoto

Erin, I'm stoked that you're still liking the new Kenwood deck!  As we discussed, I'm still pretty impressed with it as well...especially the nearly instant USB playback and track position recall-ability even after disconnecting and modifying the files on the drive! It seems simple, but I've been loving that feature. Thanks for showing that in your video. :thumbsup:

FYI guys, this deck will accept and read drives formatted in NTFS and exFAT, and of course FAT32, though that has file/folder limitations. And both Erin and I have obviously used drives up to 2TB with no hiccups, and file access & playback is Super Fast even with tens of thousends of files and when switching between different sources. HELL YEAH!

I'd love to be able to create & edit Playlists on the fly, but that functionality is not available at this point in time. I've resorted to doing it the old school way on the computer and making different playlists using folders, and that works well, of course. But with so many files available on a large HDD or SSD, it would be nice to have a simple on-screen "Add To Playlist" icon when a killer track that you had forgotten about randomly starts playing.

And I'd really love to be able to get rid of or change that [email protected] 1980's purple-blue shatter/burst default album art graphic that displays when your album art is missing or when streaming from Bluetooth (album art does not show up when using any of my Bluetooth streaming sources). Don't know why that graphic bugs me so much, but it does for some reason. 


Curious...Are you using the Apple CarPlay functionality at all?

Side note: I think that Apple is/or will be allowing the option to use WAZE in CarPlay with the newest or upcoming iOS update.


And it's really nice to see that beautiful McIntosh back in the boot! I know that your modded Soundstream amp must be bringing the sweetness to your setup as well. 

Setup looks killer...and I'm sure it sounds killer! Too bad all you play is that cheesy 80's and boy band stuff!   I kid...props for the Sweet Emotion playing in the background of the other vid.

Wait.....Holy Sheite...that's a STACKED list for finals! Good luck, mate!


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> Curious...Are you using the Apple CarPlay functionality at all?


Ab-so-lutely! I fell in love with it when I had the Pioneer. I don't think I could use another headunit without it. Plus, I sub to Apple Music so it kind of goes with it. 




bbfoto said:


> Side note: I think that Apple is/or will be allowing the option to use WAZE in CarPlay with the newest or upcoming iOS update.


Yep, iOS 12 was the jump off point. You can also use Google Maps on CarPlay now.


----------



## naiku

ErinH said:


> There's a good thread on this headunit here (link) so I won't go too much in to detail in this post. But I will say that I'm quite happy with it. It's extremely fast when moving between menus/sources, sounds great and looks great. No real issues with visibility in sunlight, either.





bbfoto said:


> FYI guys, this deck will accept and read drives formatted in NTFS and exFAT, and of course FAT32, though that has file/folder limitations. And both Erin and I have obviously used drives up to 2TB with no hiccups, and file access & playback is Super Fast even with tens of thousends of files and when switching between different sources. HELL YEAH!


Might have to take a look into that Kenwood in the New Year. I have been slowly looking for something to replace my (aging) tablet, but finding a new tablet that handles simultaneous charging and OTG, as well as being able to fit in the dash without major modification is almost impossible. Head units at this point have caught up with things like FLAC playback, Waze, Google Maps etc. that other than price there is not much point in a tablet. 

Being able to add a 2TB drive is pretty great, I have a 128GB flash drive currently, but regularly have to decide what to remove from it if I want new music on there.


----------



## ErinH

naiku said:


> Might have to take a look into that Kenwood in the New Year.


I have been quite pleased with it thus far, so I'd say it's worth considering if your tablet is on the way out of your install.


----------



## JayinMI

ErinH said:


> Ab-so-lutely! I fell in love with it when I had the Pioneer. I don't think I could use another headunit without it. Plus, I sub to Apple Music so it kind of goes with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, iOS 12 was the jump off point. You can also use Google Maps on CarPlay now.


I have Apple Music on my Android phone, and it works with Android Auto. Tho, there have been a couple of glitches following updates where it wasn't recognized unless I had it open before plugging my phone in.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

JayinMI said:


> I have Apple Music on my Android phone, and it works with Android Auto. Tho, there have been a couple of glitches following updates where it wasn't recognized unless I had it open before plugging my phone in.
> 
> Jay


Yea, I didn't mean to imply that apple music was available on CarPlay only. My bad if it came off that way.

And btw, Jay, it was good to see you this weekend, man. Sorry I didn't get a chance to demo your car but I had to cut out early. Hopefully if Jason B has a meet in the spring again I'll see you there.


----------



## SkizeR

Was nice to finally meet you after all these years. Your car is ****ing awesome. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

SkizeR said:


> Was nice to finally meet you after all these years. Your car is ****ing awesome.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Thanks, man. Nice to finally meet you as well and talk crap with you in person rather than via facebook messenger.  

Hope to see you again next year.


----------



## JayinMI

ErinH said:


> Yea, I didn't mean to imply that apple music was available on CarPlay only. My bad if it came off that way.
> 
> And btw, Jay, it was good to see you this weekend, man. Sorry I didn't get a chance to demo your car but I had to cut out early. Hopefully if Jason B has a meet in the spring again I'll see you there.


No, you didn't, but I don't know if most people know that it's available on Android. I never even thought about it, and then I think Google actually suggested it to me, so I tried it since my GF already has a family plan.

It's cool. I think you got a trophy, but you looked a lot like John Kiser at the awards ceremony, I think. lol

No worries. I think the only people who actually demoed my car were Nick Adams, and Nick Wingate. I'm hoping that placing 3rd in my class at the 2X might get it some attention this season. lol

Jay


----------



## nadams5755

it sounded good. no tactile feedback, tight midbass, staged well. effortlessness is hard, good job.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Great work at Finals Erin.


----------



## tnaudio

I heard your car was really good this year. I'm sorry I have been so busy to get out to more events. Hope to hear it this upcoming season.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

JayinMI said:


> It's cool. I think you got a trophy, but you looked a lot like John Kiser at the awards ceremony, I think. lol


I heard there was an imposter there but I'm told he isn't nearly as handsome as I so he fooled no one. lol.




nadams5755 said:


> it sounded good. no tactile feedback, tight midbass, staged well. effortlessness is hard, good job.


Thanks for the feedback, man. It was nice meeting you, Nick. Safe travels home and congrats again on your finish.




AVIDEDTR said:


> Great work at Finals Erin.


Thanks, Julian. Wish you could've heard it... I think you would've liked it.


----------



## ErinH

tnaudio said:


> I heard your car was really good this year. I'm sorry I have been so busy to get out to more events. Hope to hear it this upcoming season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


I understand... you've got a biz to run. Hated you couldn't make it out but we will definitely see each other at a show or two next year. 'Til then, keep Michael in line!


----------



## AVIDEDTR

ErinH said:


> I heard there was an imposter there but I'm told he isn't nearly as handsome as I so he fooled no one. lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, man. It was nice meeting you, Nick. Safe travels home and congrats again on your finish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Julian. Wish you could've heard it... I think you would've liked it.


Erin, your tunes I always enjoy.
See you next season

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

AVIDEDTR said:


> Erin, your tunes I always enjoy.
> See you next season
> 
> Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


Likewise. I'll hopefully see you sometime next year at a show.


----------



## ErinH

For those who don't know, the Car Audio Championships was held in Louisville, KY this past weekend, Oct 12-14, 2018. I attended and competed. Had a blast. Here’s some highlights from my perspective.



Setting the hook. For most of the weekend I kept my trunk open to show off the Mcintosh amp and the subs behind it. I’m really stoked about how it came together and I figure others would dig seeing the McIntosh, too. I had a LOT of non-SQ oriented people stop by, take pictures and comment on the amp and I used that as my chance to offer them a demo and try to set the ‘SQ hook’ in them the same way Kirk Proffitt did for me ten years ago when I heard his car. In total I gave 25 demos over the entire weekend and, out of those, 7-8 were non-SQ guys; old school stereo nuts and/or current SPL competitors. Consistently the feedback from these guys was “man, I didn’t know you SQ guys could get loud” or “Man, this is awesome”… and then I’d chat with them a little bit about what sound quality means and what some of us guys are trying to do with our systems when it comes to achieving both high-ish levels in output and maintaining a low distortion, tonally balanced system with imaging/staging that replicates a traditional hi-fi stereo setup. I appreciated those chats and those opportunities to get some butts in the seat and hopefully buck the trend that SQ guys are snobs who only listen to classical music. I know a couple guys walked away with (hopefully) a more positive notion of who we are but also the understanding that we like to jam out now and again, too. All in all, I’d say that was one of my favorite parts about the weekend. 



Great atmosphere. The event location was pretty nice (not as nice as the Huntsville, AL location, though). The competitors were all in a single building with easy access to everyone’s cars for demos. The whole vibe this weekend was one of family; not competition. Folks hopping in and out of each others’ cars, even helping their competitors. I met a few folks from the forum which was nice (Tony, Kevin, Richard, Nick, Brad and Taylor to name a few). 



Finish. I know most people only care about how someone places in a show so: I competed in IASCA and MECA finals events. Fourth in IASCA Pro/Am, fifth in MECA Extreme. It’s not as high as I’d have liked to have placed but I also know there are some things about my tune that I prefer but aren’t up to snuff in terms of ‘reference’ quality and I’m completely fine with that. I have a single tune and it’s the tune I drive with. I have a single seating position and it’s the position that I drive with (I do try to put judges in the right spot, but my seat doesn't have a lot of wiggle room). I could tailor tunes and my seated position to _maybe_ eek out some extra points and place higher but that’s not what I’m in this for. That’s somewhat of a cop-out, yes, but I’m also not a really competitive guy so when it’s all said and done I run what I brung and I hope it’s good enough for first but if it’s not then that’s fine. It's just another opportunity for growth and learning. I always take the feedback and make changes where I deem necessary but even if I prefer to keep things about my tune the way they are that feedback I get from the judges is still useful in making sure what I understand to be ‘reference’ and what I roll with as ‘preference’ are still within scope. Sometimes you can manage both; sometimes you can’t. Sometimes your personal preference is right in-line with what the judges are looking for and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes, tonally, you can have the best system but you may lack in other areas such as staging (or vice versa) and you don’t place so well. Sometimes other cars are just that on-point and no matter what reasons you had for not winning, you simply lost to a car that was on-point. The cars there this year were downright incredible. Speaking of that…



Cars that impressed me. I didn’t get to hear every car; that’s just not feasible. I did manage to listen to maybe 15-20 different cars at Finals and the truth is, I didn’t hear a single one that sounded bad. Really, they all sounded great. However, for one reason or another I had a few standouts that I’d like to quickly mention and I’ll mention those reasons…

Josh Kleckner’s Nissan Versa that Nick Apicella built – I loved this car. It jammed. Easily one of my favorites if not my favorite of the weekend.
Jeremy Wright’s Audi (S4?) that Steve Cook built – This car looks practically all stock except for the sail panel tweeters. But you’d never know it by the sound. It was excellent.
Steve Weigner’s Transit Van – This car has been killing it lately; he took home 1st & 2nd’s this weekend and dominated SVR a few months back. I understand why. I haven’t heard detail that good in any audio system I’ve ever listened to. It was superb. 
Gerald Costa's Breadtruck (Time Machine) - This thing was downright neat. Gerald played some various tracks and the way the sound seemed to 'surround' you was a total trip. Fun experience for sure.
Michael Myers’ Scion iM – Michael’s systems always sound great to me. There’s not one single thing that stands out about them; it’s just that his car always sounds so good. Great tonal balance and just plain fun to listen to. 
Tim Smith’s Sequoia built by Steve Cook – Tim’s SUV won the Culbertson Cup in MECA this year and listening to it is all you need to do to understand why. It has volume for days (a typical Steve Cook trait) but not an ounce of breakup, rattles, distortion, etc… The stage in this vehicle was quite superb and the bass blending/tonality was probably my favorite of the show this weekend.




Parting shot of my parting end...


----------



## JayinMI

The most amazing thing (to me) about Tim's Sequoia was that you couldn't hear anything outside of it, even at what most would consider "loud."

Tim told us adfter demos that if you couldn't hear it outside, it still had plenty to go. lol

Jay


----------



## SkizeR

Was awesome to finally meet you, and thank you for the kind words. although i am a bit upset that you weren't wearing a bikini :/

The civic sounded freakin awesome though. I can definitely see why some of the non-SQ guys were so attracted to it. I told Mullings (Blue Prius) that if i could drive one car out of that building, it would have been yours. That said, i didnt get to listen to the top 3 scoring cars that weekend


----------



## JayinMI

SkizeR said:


> Was awesome to finally meet you, and thank you for the kind words. although i am a bit upset that you weren't wearing a bikini :/


I wonder how long the whole "bikinipunk" thing went on. I was here for years before I realized that wasn't his screenname. lol

Jay


----------



## ErinH

SkizeR said:


> Was awesome to finally meet you, and thank you for the kind words. although i am a bit upset that you weren't wearing a bikini :/
> 
> The civic sounded freakin awesome though. I can definitely see why some of the non-SQ guys were so attracted to it. I told Mullings (Blue Prius) that if i could drive one car out of that building, it would have been yours. That said, i didnt get to listen to the top 3 scoring cars that weekend


Likewise, Nick. And you did a superb job on Josh's car. From sound to cosmetics. It's all there. :thumbsup:


I appreciate the kind words. See ya next year.


----------



## ErinH

JayinMI said:


> I wonder how long the whole "bikinipunk" thing went on.


10+ years and counting. :laugh:


----------



## Aslmx

I would love to hear this vehicle. Is that possible? I live in cullman btw.


----------



## ErinH

Aslmx said:


> I would love to hear this vehicle. Is that possible? I live in cullman btw.


There's a meet in Hayden next weekend. You can definitely hear mine there and others' systems as well. 

Here's the info:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...yma/402433-central-north-al-gtg-nov-10-a.html


Hope to see you there!


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Erin-never stop being "you". Your car in its current state (at least when I heard it in Nashville) is the best I've ever heard it for my tastes. I fully believe it's systems like yours and Kirk's that has the most effect on people suddenly getting into SQ. I've heard high scoring cars that seemed to do everything correctly but just lacked the heart and soul to make them fun. Keep it fun and keep pushing the envelope! Look forward to hearing your car again and hope to get plenty of feedback (and tuning help if needed) on my new install.


----------



## ErinH

I appreciate the kind words, Chris! Means a lot. 

I’ll see you next weekend, man! Safe travels.


----------



## JayinMI

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I fully believe it's systems like yours and Kirk's that has the most effect on people suddenly getting into SQ. I've heard high scoring cars that seemed to do everything correctly but just lacked the heart and soul to make them fun.


Some of that could be Erin's musical choices. LOL. I've recently started going through the CD collection and importing everything in FLAC, and some of the first CD's I grabbed were 80's pop/synth pop/new wave which were inspired by some of the stuff I've heard in Erin's car over the years.

Jay


----------



## ErinH

JayinMI said:


> Some of that could be Erin's musical choices. LOL. I've recently started going through the CD collection and importing everything in FLAC, and some of the first CD's I grabbed were 80's pop/synth pop/new wave which were inspired by some of the stuff I've heard in Erin's car over the years.
> 
> Jay


----------



## danno14

^^^ oh boy!........?


----------



## BigAl205

Sophie Turner's looking rough in that picture


----------



## mumbles

BigAl205 said:


> Sophie Turner's looking rough in that picture


Sophie Turner??? I thought that was Erin in his "Bikini Punk" outfit


----------



## ErinH

mumbles said:


> Sophie Turner??? I thought that was Erin in his "Bikini Punk" outfit




Well... You can ignore the last post I made in the GTG thread.


----------



## mumbles

ErinH said:


> Well... You can ignore the last post I made in the GTG thread.


LOL, I had to take the shot  Seriously, I appreciate the offer in the GTG thread and if it still stands I'll take you up on it! :blush:


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

JayinMI said:


> Some of that could be Erin's musical choices. LOL. I've recently started going through the CD collection and importing everything in FLAC, and some of the first CD's I grabbed were 80's pop/synth pop/new wave which were inspired by some of the stuff I've heard in Erin's car over the years.
> 
> Jay


Yeah that too. 80's music really does make a system pop. Was rocking out to the latest demo cd I got from Erin just the other day. The Nappy Roots track was a nice touch too


----------



## strakele

Well done as always Erin. You and your car are a great ambassador for this hobby. I still distinctly remember the first car audio meet I went to at your place in like 2010 where I met you, Kirk, Jason, Chris, Ryan, Mark, etc and really got into the tuning and competing aspect. I'm pretty sure the last time I heard your car was 2013 finals - can't believe it's been that long. It was great then and sure seems like it's at a new level now. Awesome!


----------



## ErinH

Thanks, Grayson! 

I remember that meet as well. Was a fun time. 

Good to hear from you. Keep flyin' high.


----------



## Chris12

I spent the past few days reading through all 78 pages of this post, and all I can say is... Wow!

There is so much information tucked in here, definitely glad I dedicated the time to read through it.

Post 1061 from 2016 where you hid the tweeters and the gb25’s in the front pillars has really got me thinking of trying something similar in my car. I’m not sure if the exact same thing will work for me as I’ve got much less area in my Camry to work with, but I’m going to give it some thought.

Anyhow, thanks for all the great information, and for providing reading entertainment for the past few nights 




** Here’s the post I referenced above. The posts following and preceding it have pertinent information too.



ErinH said:


> I don't have any "final" ones. I've got some crappy ones I took with my cell phone to share with some friends when I was still in the test phase, but it's pretty much the same as what's in there now except I used better wood and chamfered the rear of the gb25 mounting hole.
> 
> I'll take some better pictures when I re-wrap the pillars but for now, here are the ones from when I was testing the location out...


----------



## captainobvious

Looks like I missed your post after finals- whoops!


Thanks for the kind words bro. I really enjoyed your car in Louisville as well. Really nice job on the midbass and the car overall was quite good. I had a tough time (as always) picking things out to even critique. Congrats on the podium finish and, really, great finishes overall considering the level of competition we had in our classes! It was a fun time.


I have a couple of things I had planned to do prior to finals but just ran out of time. Should be a fun 2019! 




Cheers


----------



## ErinH

Chris12 said:


> I spent the past few days reading through all 78 pages of this post, and all I can say is... Wow!
> 
> There is so much information tucked in here, definitely glad I dedicated the time to read through it.
> 
> Post 1061 from 2016 where you hid the tweeters and the gb25’s in the front pillars has really got me thinking of trying something similar in my car. I’m not sure if the exact same thing will work for me as I’ve got much less area in my Camry to work with, but I’m going to give it some thought.
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for all the great information, and for providing reading entertainment for the past few nights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ** Here’s the post I referenced above. The posts following and preceding it have pertinent information too.



Thanks for the feedback. Glad you found some stuff useful for your application.


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> Looks like I missed your post after finals- whoops!
> 
> 
> Thanks for the kind words bro. I really enjoyed your car in Louisville as well. Really nice job on the midbass and the car overall was quite good. I had a tough time (as always) picking things out to even critique. Congrats on the podium finish and, really, great finishes overall considering the level of competition we had in our classes! It was a fun time.
> 
> 
> I have a couple of things I had planned to do prior to finals but just ran out of time. Should be a fun 2019!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers



Ditto on the kind words, mate. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'm unsure of any future changes to mine. I made some tuning adjustments post-finals which made a drastic difference and I've just been enjoying it for the last month. I have a few ideas ruminating but I remind myself that I take forever to get things installed and it's nice to be able to just enjoy the system for what it is and not have the car gutted in the garage for 6 months. Plus, I'm not sure anything I could do would be a legitimate improvement at this point. The system as it sits pretty much covers the gamut of what I want a car audio system to do. At least within the confines of this particular car. And as much as I'd love to get a new car ... especially with mine now being 12 years old and having 237k miles on it... I just can't bring myself to do it. Plus, I wear those 237k miles like a badge of honor at this point.  We plan on getting my wife a new vehicle within the next few weeks and I've already got some gear set aside for it so that should take care of my idle hands for the next few months.


----------



## quality_sound

ErinH said:


> Ditto on the kind words, mate. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'm unsure of any future changes to mine. I made some tuning adjustments post-finals which made a drastic difference and I've just been enjoying it for the last month. I have a few ideas ruminating but I remind myself that I take forever to get things installed and it's nice to be able to just enjoy the system for what it is and not have the car gutted in the garage for 6 months. Plus, I'm not sure anything I could do would be a legitimate improvement at this point. The system as it sits pretty much covers the gamut of what I want a car audio system to do. At least within the confines of this particular car. And as much as I'd love to get a new car ... especially with mine now being 12 years old and having 237k miles on it... I just can't bring myself to do it. Plus, I wear those 237k miles like a badge of honor at this point.  We plan on getting my wife a new vehicle within the next few weeks and I've already got some gear set aside for it so that should take care of my idle hands for the next few months.


I REALLY need to find a big Mac like that. I love my Zeros, but that Mac is...that Mac.


----------



## preston

I took a chance to review this thread as well, I'll reiterate what was posted above - thanks for all you do and the knowledge you provide. 

Everytime you build a new setup you say its the best ever and that you're done ha ha. 

A few questions - 

Still ecstatic about this setup ? No longer bothered about the psycho-acoustic problem of speakers in your face ? Better sound than your Scan pillars, Kef Pillars, Satori Pillars, AudioFrog pillars ? Or all sounded pretty good and this is just capable of more output ? 

I don't see a post where you removed the rear fill - any thoughts to share on why you got rid of it ? 

What crossover points are you using now ? particularly interested in the midrange high and lo. I never saw that mentioned.

Is that right that the BMS tweeter is 16 ohms ? Does that mean the SS amp at 50w @ 4ohms is only capable of 12.5 watts to the tweeter ?


----------



## whoever

Preston, I own a pair of the BMS. I can tell you that it doesn’t take more than a few watts on the Compression Driver before they are downright painful.


----------



## preston

Yeah I believe it, I was just curious as you don't see a lot of 16 ohm drivers in car audio.


----------



## ErinH

preston said:


> Still ecstatic about this setup ? No longer bothered about the psycho-acoustic problem of speakers in your face ? Better sound than your Scan pillars, Kef Pillars, Satori Pillars, AudioFrog pillars ? Or all sounded pretty good and this is just capable of more output ?


Yep. Quite happy with the system. Truthfully don't know how I could get any closer to my 'ideal' system than what I have now. It ROCKS, has incredible midbass/subbass and (after I corrected something post-finals) the detail is there. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm genuinely extremely happy with how it sounds. Head and shoulders better than anything I've had preceding it. It's just on a totally different level now. 





preston said:


> I don't see a post where you removed the rear fill - any thoughts to share on why you got rid of it ?


I took that out a little over a year ago. Too distracting with some of the music I listen to and then other times just not noticeable enough to improve the system. YMMV.





preston said:


> What crossover points are you using now ? particularly interested in the midrange high and lo. I never saw that mentioned.


I don't recall off the top. The mid plays somewhere between 300-3k and the compression driver is about 7k+. I put the HPF and slope on the compression driver to match the horn loading effect; netting a neutral FR. Does that make sense, or do you need me to explain what I mean there? Not sure how much you understand about horn loading. Definitely not conventional electronic crossover points thanks to the horn-loading nature of the compression driver. 






preston said:


> Is that right that the BMS tweeter is 16 ohms ? Does that mean the SS amp at 50w @ 4ohms is only capable of 12.5 watts to the tweeter ?


Oh, yea, man. The compression drivers' sensitivity is about 110dB @ 1w at their lowest; 118dB at the highest. They get STUPID LOUD off just a teeny weeny bit of power. I had SPL dudes demo my car at Finals a couple months ago and they didn't even top it out. LOL


----------



## BigAl205

ErinH said:


> teeny weeny


Erin's new nickname :z:


----------



## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> Erin's new nickname :z:


"teeny weeny yellow polka-dot bikini*Punk*"


:laugh:


----------



## rockinridgeline

Hey Erin. I missed your summary about Finals somehow and just now read it. It was great to meet you after so many years on the forum. I really appreciated the way that you and Steve introduced me to guys and gave me a chance to listen to their cars. Your car, Josh's, Tim's, Bruce's, Kirk's and many others all sounded excellent. I realized on day two that I've been missing out all these years not competing and getting to hang out with people that share the same passion for car audio. I would much rather build and tune myself but there is no way that I can budget the time at this stage. So I bought a new car and drove it down to Steve, LOL. 

I am very much looking forward to getting to know everyone in the competition scene better and getting to hang out and listen to some great sounding cars next year. See you out there!


----------



## preston

> I don't recall off the top. The mid plays somewhere between 300-3k and the compression driver is about 7k+. I put the HPF and slope on the compression driver to match the horn loading effect; netting a neutral FR. Does that make sense, or do you need me to explain what I mean there? Not sure how much you understand about horn loading. Definitely not conventional electronic crossover points thanks to the horn-loading nature of the compression driver.


No please explain - and I should have some clue since I ran full size horns for several years. Are you saying your mid could be high passed as high as 3k ? Hm, wasn't expecting that.I'm pretty sure good well aimed 10" drivers in the kicks definitely trumps my L8's in the doors though. I don't even hear much above 8k so wouldn't make any sense to cross up there ! 

Dumb question, but those are obviously considered IB right , there is no attempt to seal those BMS is there ? My understanding is the reason to seal a midrange is if your are dropping below 250Hz. I've been enjoying experimenting with running my dash/pillar mids lower (180Hz), not higher ! I love what it does to the sound at normal volumes but I can hear it lose quality as the volume goes up. I'm considering sealing up my mids but big project obviously and not as aesthetic as what I'm doing now.

I have quite a bit of room on my dash/pillars and I just kind of fell in love with the looks and possiblities of your BMS drivers and I've been intrigued by coaxial/concentric/point drivers before (if for no other reason than to get rid of the visual complexity of a tweeterpod) so I was thinking of trying them out although that would involve building completely new pods. 

I also had my eyes on something that would fit my current pods - the Seas Prestige L12RE/XFC (H1602). I found an old post where you had tested those and weren't impressed due to some harmonics, but I also found some $3500 bookshelf speakers that used those drivers (ha they are only $160 apiece). Of couse they don't have a horn tweeter either. 

My primary concern is mid range tonal quality though, which is why I was interested in if you still felt your BMS was on par with something like a Scanspeak 12M (I just bought a pair haven't put them in yet, currently using L4's) in the mid range. I mean obviously you do I'm just always suspect of the true fidelity of pro style drivers. 


I was running EJS full size horns with one of the pro driver 8" (B&C ? something Eric recommended) in my doors and while it was very clean at high volumes and imaged very well, it never sounded warm enough to me. Could have been my little class D amps or just the truck environment, or maybe it just needed a true midrange in between, but I just never really got the chills from that system. 

Sorry for hte long post I'm just really geeking out on this stuff right now.

(edit: 12M not 10f)


----------



## SSSnake

> The mid plays somewhere between 300-3k and the compression driver is about 7k+.





> No please explain - and I should have some clue since I ran full size horns for several years. Are you saying your mid could be high passed as high as 3k ?


Not Erin but... the horn gives the compression driver better efficiency in the 3k to 7k range. Therefore he is gapping the mid to compression driver xover point to have flat acoustic response.

So no the mid would not be high passed at 3k it is high passed around 300 and low passed at 3k.


----------



## SSSnake

Double post.


----------



## preston

Okay thanks for that explanation. That makes more sense, I couldn't understand what Erin was saying there (and didn't believe him when he said he didn't remember the xover, the guy who has done more meticulous testing than anyone). That still seems like a massive gap between 3k and 7k though.

I love that BMS driver, I keep sneaking looks at it on the web page. But I already put like 200 hours into my pods and I'm not gonna rebuild them just to try something that looks interesting.


----------



## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> ...The compression drivers' sensitivity is about 110dB @ 1w at their lowest; 118dB at the highest. They get STUPID LOUD off just a teeny weeny bit of power. I had SPL dudes demo my car at Finals a couple months ago and they didn't even top it out. LOL


Hey Erin, maybe you already have them, but BMS updated the #5CN162 drivers to BMS #5CN162*HE*. The new model has a Shorting Ring on the HF for lower distortion. Otherwise they are the same. I think both models are still being made. The "HE" version is just $16 more than the standard one.

I'm gonna test them in a DIY studio monitor setup, possibly combined with the BMS 12N630 or some Scan 10's or 12's. If I like what I hear, I may have to be a copycat and clone your Civic setup, LOL, though I don't think I could hide them quite as well as you did in your Civic's A-pillars. 

EDIT: I don't think the new 5CN162*HE* drivers are listed on the BMS website/catalog. The distributor gave me the heads up when I was placing my order.


----------



## ErinH




----------



## AVIDEDTR

ErinH said:


>


Bhahahahahah

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## dcfis

Erin how much airspace is behind those BMS? Sealed or IB? Im sure its answered but reading backwards picking and searching isnt a replacement for starting the thread from the beginning? I must say those a pillars look astounding.


----------



## bigbubba

OHEMGEE = PERFECT


----------



## BigAl205

Your score was so perfect, they decided to not even listen to any others. Word!


----------



## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> Your score was so perfect, they decided to not even listen to any others. Word!


Exactly!


----------



## schmiddr2

ErinH said:


> Exactly!


So it's the Magic Sedan?


----------



## ErinH




----------



## gregerst22

Hahaha. That's Hairlarious! see what I did there.


----------



## Blu

I think from now on every time I hear this song, I'm gonna think of it as "Spanish Hairlem" :laugh:


----------



## bertholomey

ErinH said:


>




One of my favorite movies.....one of my favorite memes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

Congrats Erin....... car looks great


----------



## ErinH

oabeieo said:


> Congrats Erin....... car looks great


Thanks, man. But... Just to be clear, that scoresheet was made up to go along with the video.


----------



## oabeieo

ErinH said:


> Thanks, man. But... Just to be clear, that scoresheet was made up to go along with the video.


Oh okay, well I still think your car is absolutely amazing. I’m a little jel


----------



## ErinH

oabeieo said:


> Oh okay, well I still think your car is absolutely amazing. I’m a little jel


Thanks, dude!


----------



## Gas Is Expensive

Holy **** Erin, you still have the Civic? Looks like you've done some amazing things. A fire hydrant jumped out at my Civic about 4 years ago and totaled it. I still have (and use) your old 12W6v2, as it was just about the only piece of gear to survive the hydrant attack. 

Keep killin' it!


----------



## ErinH

Oh, wow! How's it going, man?! It's been a while since I've seen you around. Good to see the "old" guys come back around now and again. And, yea, I've still got the civic. But one of these days I'll get something else ... whether it's by choice or this thing just gives up the ghost. 245k miles and so far, so good.


----------



## ErinH

All night diners

keep you awake

on black coffee

and haaaard roll


----------



## oabeieo

So Erin I was looking at that 5” you have , I can see why you like it

I saw the “next generation “ compression drivers on the bms site the 5530nd

Although it looks just like the 4552nd (which I already have) 
Maybe this one is better ? Your thoughts....also 

Where do I order a set if I wanted to try 
Do you have a connect on these

Edit : if PM is more appropriate?


----------



## Gas Is Expensive

ErinH said:


> Oh, wow! How's it going, man?! It's been a while since I've seen you around. Good to see the "old" guys come back around now and again. And, yea, I've still got the civic. But one of these days I'll get something else ... whether it's by choice or this thing just gives up the ghost. 245k miles and so far, so good. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />


It's going well man, thanks. Yeah, I think I bought the 12W6v2 from you back in 2008 so, yup, been awhile! I took a 3+ year long break from mobile audio because I had some vehicles after the Civic that were just too painful to work with and not one company was making aftermarket adapters or bypass tools for them at the time. Got a Jeep Compass now and I'm working on my first build in years, slowly but surely. You've been an inspiration (was great to see someone else with an 8th gen Civic doing great and creative things). Thanks again for all the knowledge you've dropped. 

Now I just need to find someone with a 2nd gen Jeep Compass who's doing something other than tossing a LOC, amp and four 15's in the hatch. It's getting lonely.


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> EDIT: I don't think the new 5CN162*HE* drivers are listed on the BMS website/catalog. The distributor gave me the heads up when I was placing my order.


Thanks for the heads up, mate. 

When you first posted I went and looked on their site and didn't see anything. Figured you just had the inside track.  
I don't really see a need for me to swap to the new 'HE' version for a shorting ring. I mean, if I were gonna buy one I'd go that route but I don't see a benefit in me swapping my working ones out just for that benefit. I'll watch their site, though, and see what the specs say once (if) they post them. 





oabeieo said:


> So Erin I was looking at that 5” you have , I can see why you like it
> 
> I saw the “next generation “ compression drivers on the bms site the 5530nd
> 
> Although it looks just like the 4552nd (which I already have)
> Maybe this one is better ? Your thoughts....also
> 
> Where do I order a set if I wanted to try
> Do you have a connect on these
> 
> Edit : if PM is more appropriate?


Hey, man. I do not have a connection with BMS. I just go through their US distributor listed on their site. I wish I did have an inside track because those guys are terrible at quick replies IME. In all my dealings with them over the last 5 years or so I've never had a reply come back faster than 3 days later. And that was even when I was wanting to buy something. Anyway... to answer your question about the compression drivers, I can't really speak to them with any authority. Since CDs are only part of the equation (the other part being the horn), the performance really comes down to the sum of the parts. Plus, I've never really been fond of the typical "car audio" CD+horn "waveguide" setups. IOW, it's just not my cup of tea so I don't spend much time thinking about it. 

That said, just looking at the comparison between the two on their site using the horn they noted since it’s the same:
Size: the 'next generation' 5530nd looks to be 0.5 inches smaller in diameter which might be a real nice benefit depending on the area you're trying to install them in. 
FR: Ugh. Well, this one is tricky. The spec for the 5530nd makes the HF falloff rate seem more drastic than the 4552... BUT it could just be the y-axis scale; I can't say for sure because the spec for the 4552 doesn't tell me what the scale is. Same thing with distortion profiles, not to mention the distortion data isn't given the same (one is THD, the other has the components broken out). 

I'd EXPECT the new, 'next generation' to perform better but in a smaller package. I just don't have anything to back that up since I can't make their data an apples to apples comparison. So, yea... I'm sure that helped. :laugh:


----------



## ErinH

dcfis said:


> Erin how much airspace is behind those BMS? Sealed or IB? Im sure its answered but reading backwards picking and searching isnt a replacement for starting the thread from the beginning?


They are sealed. If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere around 4-5 liters. But that's a guess. The enclosure volume is more a consequence of the install. Meaning, the drivers can't tuck back in to the pillars much more than they already are so the size of the enclosure is due to that. The volume is relatively large compared to Vas and the Fs is so low compared to the crossover point that the enclosure has no real effect on the low end response and is instead only sealed to keep backwaves from leaking in to the dash and causing issues with the sound.


----------



## ErinH

Small update but thought it might be useful to some of you guys so here we go. I recently swapped out my Scanspeak Discovery 26W/4534G 10" Midwoofers for Ciare HW251N 10" midwoofers. The Ciare's appealed to me for a few reasons in that they have: 


a bit more power handling
a bit more output 
higher efficiency (helps with power compression)
a beefier surround
a stronger motor
lower load on the amplifier


The Scans were almost perfect for my particular needs as a dedicated midbass. However, on paper and in models, the Ciare is just a _little bit_ better for my needs but I'm at the point where that little bit is beneficial to me. Plus, the price is completely reasonable at $130/each which nets a high value here for my application. 

I've had them installed since this weekend and am happy with the decision; I think it's a legitimate step forward for my system. The inner bass head in me is satisfied and the inner SQ purist in me seems to notice less power compression at high output which helps improve the dynamic range. 

Just to recap the specifics of how they're installed and implemented in my system as it sits today: Essentially "infinite baffle" because the enclosures vent through a 4" hole in the firewall. Electronic crossover is around 65hz - 300hz, LR4 on both ends, IIRC. 


With that said, if any of you guys are like me and looking for a 10" woofer for midbass duty then these (as well as the Scans) are worth a look. I think the Scan would be more suitable for mated to a higher crossed midrange or maybe horn; maybe the 500-800hz region. The Ciare's top end seems to not be as useful above the 300hz-400hz area and I think it's better off crossed below that area. So, like I said, it's really application dependent. To me these are a perfect mix of pro-audio efficiency with home audio low Fs/Qts which, when paired with a reasonable crossover, makes for one meeeeaaaaan midbass. 













Scan Disco 10" on left and Ciare HW251N on right:












Had to make some adapters since the Ciare is a little deeper. Used Corian this time since I had some from an old install.


----------



## ErinH

Installed. The grille was taken off for the pics but it still fits like it did over the scanspeak via some magnets. With that said, I had to make a thicker adapter for the drivers side and had to ... ahem... rig up a standoff for that side's grille until it cools off and I can work on it without dying from heat stroke or drowning in a puddle of my own sweat. 












And with the grille back on.


----------



## BigAl205

I didn't know it was possible to improve it


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Can't wait to turn it up to ELEVEN again. I'll make sure to have some special tracks again just for your car


----------



## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> I didn't know it was possible to improve it


----------



## ErinH

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Can't wait to turn it up to ELEVEN again. I'll make sure to have some special tracks again just for your car


----------



## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> ... rig up a standoff for that side's grille until it cools off and I can work on it without dying from heat stroke or drowning in a puddle of my own sweat.


Looks killer, Erin! Nice find with those Ciare woofers.  And thanks for explaining your reasoning for the swap. Not that it is/was a diriving factor, but it's nice as well that you could probably come out ahead cost-wise if you sold the Scans. 

And since you mentioned the heat...

I noticed what looks like black plastic shelving in your garage in one of the photos. I'm in the process of moving my woodshop/workshop out of my main garage and into a 20ft Shipping Container to make room for another special vehicle and to help keep the garage clean & dust-free as well.

I bought a few of what looks to be those same shelf units to use as temporary storage while building out the new workshop. On multiple occasions when I went out to go do some work in the shipping container, the top two shelves had toppled over and dumped everything onto the floor. 

I was scratching my head as to how & why this kept happening! Well, the heat would soften the plastic shelf tubes and they would buckle under the weight, causing the shelves to topple over.

The crazy thing was that after the load or weight was removed, the tubes would "pop" back into their original straight shape, giving no visible indication that they had ever buckled, LOL.

Anyway, luckily these weren't in my main garage next to one of the vehicles, otherwise there would have been some significant & expensive damage done!

So the top two shelves are now limited to only lighter-weight goods!

Oh, the shipping container is well-ventilated with a whirlybird-type turbine vent on the top, and two large, louvered side vents, so when the doors are shut it only gets ~5°F or so warmer in the shipping container than the outside ambient temperature, so not too much different than a standard garage.

Sorry for the long-winded "heads-up", but I wouldn't want to see your shelf unit toppling over onto your vehicles, kids, or animals, etc.

Keep us posted on any updates or changes made to the Civic! :thumbsup:


----------



## ErinH

Wow... that’s a heckuva reply about some shelves there, mate. LOL. 

I actually have my shelves held in place with some wall anchors. I’ve not had any issues with them bending like you’ve mentioned ... that seems pretty dang extreme. But I guess if they are in shipping containers it makes sense since it’s just a trapped volume of air. My garage is insulated (with insulated doors and foamed ceiling as well) so it really does quite well all things considered. If I keep the garage doors down it stays well regulated but once those doors go up and the outside has a chance to come in then it’s a different story. And the humidity... ugh.... Anyway, I appreciate the heads up. And good thing you figured out what was going on before anything really bad happened. 

Btw, did you ever get your 5” BMS in from AA?


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> Looks killer, Erin! Nice find with those Ciare woofers.  And thanks for explaining your reasoning for the swap. Not that it is/was a diriving factor, but it's nice as well that you could probably come out ahead cost-wise if you sold the Scans.


FWIW, the Scans are actually a smidge cheaper. I listed them for sale for only $105 for the pair if anyone is interested:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...nspeak-discovery-26w-4534g-10-midwoofers.html


----------



## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> ...
> 
> Btw, did you ever get your 5” BMS in from AA?


Oh yeah, I received the BMS drivers just a week after ordering from Jack at AA way back in the beginning of April. But with the decision to move the workshop and other busy "life" stuff, I haven't had a chance to do anything with them. 

I'm hoping to have the new shop set up and other busy-ness settling down by the end of August so I can get to them. Been really frustrating not being able to get them up & running, but...priorities.


----------



## BigAl205

I wonder how these new B&C drivers compare to the BMS. It's only a 4" driver, but looks impressive

https://www.parts-express.com/bc-4cxn36-4-professional-coaxial-speaker-70-x-70-8-ohm--294-6048


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> ... but...priorities.


Preaching to the choir, my friend.

LMK how you like those drivers when you find the time to give them a listen.


----------



## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> I wonder how these new B&C drivers compare to the BMS. It's only a 4" driver, but looks impressive
> 
> https://www.parts-express.com/bc-4cxn36-4-professional-coaxial-speaker-70-x-70-8-ohm--294-6048


The 85dB sensitivity of the midrange is a deal breaker (for me). It's trading off lower frequency extension for sensitivity. 

Also, when using coaxial drivers, one thing to keep in mind is the high frequency modulation due to the travel of the midrange. Since the midrange acts as a waveguide (in good designs), you can imagine if that waveguide moves it would alter the response of the HF driver. So you have to watch excursion. That's one reason why I chose a 5"; the driver could be crossed around 300hz while still keeping cone travel to a minimum. If you wanted to use a 4" you're probably looking at crossing closer to 400hz. It would make more sense to me if they increased Fs and boosted sensitivity. Especially since it's a "pro audio" coaxial.


----------



## captainobvious

Looks great bro. I'm looking forward to hearing them.


----------



## ErinH

captainobvious said:


> Looks great bro. I'm looking forward to hearing them.


Thanks, Steve. I look forward to hearing (and seeing in person) your latest creation as well.


----------



## Darkrider

Me, every time I try to follow what Erin is talking about when explaining why he is changing gear again.


----------



## ErinH

Darkrider said:


> Me, every time I try to follow what Erin is talking about when explaining why he is changing gear again.


It’s more self-justification so I can buy new toys. Most of what I say is made up or copy/pasted from reviews in stereophile magazine.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

ErinH said:


> It’s more self-justification so I can buy new toys. Most of what I say is made up or copy/pasted from reviews in stereophile magazine.


You change gear because it's your religion. Wonder if that reason would work with your wife, lol? I think I remember her getting mad when a pair of AT midwoofers got delivered during a meet and Ben bailing you out


----------



## ErinH

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You change gear because it's your religion. Wonder if that reason would work with your wife, lol? I think I remember her getting mad when a pair of AT midwoofers got delivered during a meet and Ben bailing you out


She's hung around for this long knowing my addiction. Too late to bail now. lol

Besides, I've been driving the same car for 13 years. I know people who change out cars every 2-3 years... so my piddly little audio changes are nothing compared to that cost. So that's always my fallback. But, lord, do I want a new one something fierce. lol


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

ErinH said:


> She's hung around for this long knowing my addiction. Too late to bail now. lol
> 
> Besides, I've been driving the same car for 13 years. I know people who change out cars every 2-3 years... so my piddly little audio changes are nothing compared to that cost. So that's always my fallback. But, lord, do I want a new one something fierce. lol


Man your Civic needs to live on as a rolling concert in one way or another. You've contributed so much to this community from trial and error with that car. I bet someone would buy it to compete with when you're done with it even if it's just a trailer queen. So whatcha lookin at to replace it with in the next year or ten?


----------



## ErinH

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Man your Civic needs to live on as a rolling concert in one way or another. You've contributed so much to this community from trial and error with that car. I bet someone would buy it to compete with when you're done with it even if it's just a trailer queen. So whatcha lookin at to replace it with in the next year or ten?


I'm not sure anyone would want it. 250k miles on it. Wouldn't be worth much. And I'm not sure I like the idea of selling it with the stereo and having someone benefit from my efforts. I'll probably take it to the crusher and bid it adieu when it's all said and done. :laugh:

I think two years ago I was hoping to get a new car at the end of the year in 2017. Well, that didn't happen because I chickened out. I can't really justify to myself the cost of a new (to me) car when mine is still getting me from A to B. I've had to do a few small repairs here and there (replaced the starter last summer and the A/C compressor the summer before) but so far it's been a really reliable vehicle. On top of that, my wife's car started experiencing issues late last year and the cost to repair it didn't make sense so we got her a new ride last December. So who knows... maybe I could get something this winter but if mine is still going strong then I can't really justify another car payment just "because". Certainly not with the miles that I put on it daily. But, hey, maybe some day this winter the motor will just fall out as I pull out of the garage and I'll be forced to get something new.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Well you sure can't say you didn't get your money's worth out of itI know paying for that a/c compressor had to hurt about as bad as getting kicked in the nuts. Kinda a necessity in the dirty south though.


----------



## ErinH

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Well you sure can't say you didn't get your money's worth out of itI know paying for that a/c compressor had to hurt about as bad as getting kicked in the nuts. Kinda a necessity in the dirty south though.


Actually, it wasn't bad. I bought it online; a whole kit for about $180. My buddy who owns repair shop installed it for me for little of nothing. Helps to have friends who know how to do stuff you don't.


----------



## rton20s

ErinH said:


> She's hung around for this long knowing my addiction. Too late to bail now. lol
> 
> Besides, I've been driving the same car for 13 years. I know people who change out cars every 2-3 years... so my piddly little audio changes are nothing compared to that cost. So that's always my fallback. But, lord, do I want a new one something fierce. lol


I'm in a very similar position. Driving around vehicle from 2004 certainly has some drawbacks, and every couple of months I get the itch to buy something newer. Swapping out audio gear is certainly much cheaper than a monthly payment and increased insurance, though. I also finally upgraded from a single DIN to a 9905S with CarPlay. That may buy me another decade.


----------



## naiku

ErinH said:


> But, lord, do I want a new one something fierce. lol


Been driving mine for 10 years and I know that feeling all too well. For me it's hard to justify replacing it, it's paid for, cheap to run and insure and since I work from home all it does is go to the grocery store once or twice a week and take the boys to school. Couple more years I'll give the keys to my oldest when he starts driving, then pick something newer up for me.


----------



## dgage

naiku said:


> Been driving mine for 10 years and I know that feeling all too well. For me it's hard to justify replacing it, it's paid for, cheap to run and insure and since I work from home all it does is go to the grocery store once or twice a week and take the boys to school. Couple more years I'll give the keys to my oldest when he starts driving, then pick something newer up for me.


I’m with you, 19 years on my Acura TL and it still drives so nice. Not as fast as newer cars but it still has a V6 so it isn’t slow. And I have anti-sway bars and high performance tires so it handles really well. I am a consultant so I sometimes go out of town and I’ve driven several rental cars: Infiniti, Cadillac, new Audi A6, and I think the only one that I really enjoyed was I think the Infiniti Q70 with a very fast engine/transmission. But personally I’m saving up for a Tesla Model 3 Performance. I’ve driven a couple (non-Performance) Model 3s and they are very nice cars with info-tainment systems far beyond any other car on the road. Not to mention even cars 3+ years old still get updates and new features. No other cars on the road offer that yet. Obviously there are some issues such as service and parts availability sometimes but they should need less maintenance long-term. Maybe I’ll get one next spring...


----------



## ErinH

rton20s said:


> I'm in a very similar position. Driving around vehicle from 2004 certainly has some drawbacks, and every couple of months I get the itch to buy something newer. Swapping out audio gear is certainly much cheaper than a monthly payment and increased insurance, though. I also finally upgraded from a single DIN to a 9905S with CarPlay. That may buy me another decade.


Oh, yea, you're good for another 10-15 years _at least_! 




naiku said:


> Been driving mine for 10 years and I know that feeling all too well. For me it's hard to justify replacing it, it's paid for, cheap to run and insure and since I work from home all it does is go to the grocery store once or twice a week and take the boys to school. Couple more years I'll give the keys to my oldest when he starts driving, then pick something newer up for me.


If I were your kid I'd gladly take that as my first car. Love those Audi wagons. Love 'em.




dgage said:


> But personally I’m saving up for a Tesla Model 3 Performance. I’ve driven a couple (non-Performance) Model 3s and they are very nice cars with info-tainment systems far beyond any other car on the road. Not to mention even cars 3+ years old still get updates and new features. No other cars on the road offer that yet. Obviously there are some issues such as service and parts availability sometimes but they should need less maintenance long-term. Maybe I’ll get one next spring...


My coworker bought one last Fall and I've ridden in it a couple times. Definitely an interesting car. That dash seems like it's ripe for some audio trickery. The only bummer about that car, though, is long drives. I like to go to the audio meets and shows that are 5+ hours from me. (He said) You really have to map those drives out since the range is limited to 250 miles or less with the model 3's.


----------



## ErinH

On that same token, I shared this with some friends the other day and it fits here...

I had to take my daughter somewhere yesterday and my mom was going with us, so I told my wife I was gonna use her car and she could drive mine to work.

The look of disappointment she had. 

_Then_ I told her all the idiosyncrasies of my car (like priming the fuel pump before starting the engine and making sure the idle speed doesn’t tank the alternator when the AC is on). I may have been exaggerating a little. With a face of sincerity she said "you need a new car". :laugh:

So after some back and forth... maybe... _big maybe_... I could finally be getting a new car this year. I should have made her drive my car months ago.


----------



## bigbubba

I planned to buy a new car for about 6 months to replace my Monte. I finally got my new 300. I planned out a system for it and got all the components, glassed a new sub enclosure. A year and a half later, I drive the 300 maybe once every 2 weeks and still haven't put the stereo in it and I still drive the Monte everyday with 240,000+ miles.


----------



## ErinH

bigbubba said:


> I planned to buy a new car for about 6 months to replace my Monte. I finally got my new 300. I planned out a system for it and got all the components, glassed a new sub enclosure. A year and a half later, I drive the 300 maybe once every 2 weeks and still haven't put the stereo in it and I still drive the Monte everyday with 240,000+ miles.


That’s crazy. Do you just like the MC more or is it the audio system?


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## bigbubba

ErinH said:


> That’s crazy. Do you just like the MC more or is it the audio system?


This may sound dumb but the Monte feels comfortable to me. Plus it still drives good and it is paid for so I have no reason not to drive it. That being said, I really like the 300 and it is very low mile car. I'm just having a hard time popping off that first panel. I really need to get over that and get the damn stereo installed already.


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## naiku

ErinH said:


> _Then_ I told her all the idiosyncrasies of my car (like priming the fuel pump before starting the engine and making sure the idle speed doesn’t tank the alternator when the AC is on).


:laugh: I know this conversation all too well...

If you fill it up with gas, make sure to use premium
Watch out for speed bumps, pot holes etc. 
When you start it, wait about 60 seconds for the idle to drop
Sometimes the tablet acts weird, you just have to reboot it


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## rton20s

ErinH said:


> On that same token, I shared this with some friends the other day and it fits here...
> 
> I had to take my daughter somewhere yesterday and my mom was going with us, so I told my wife I was gonna use her car and she could drive mine to work.
> 
> The look of disappointment she had.
> 
> _Then_ I told her all the idiosyncrasies of my car (like priming the fuel pump before starting the engine and making sure the idle speed doesn’t tank the alternator when the AC is on). I may have been exaggerating a little. With a face of sincerity she said "you need a new car". :laugh:
> 
> So after some back and forth... maybe... _big maybe_... I could finally be getting a new car this year. I should have made her drive my car months ago.


Thanks for the heads up. My wife will be driving my car tomorrow, I'll make sure to give her a laundry list. 

She drove it not long ago, before I did a bunch of fixes on my coilovers and I think it scared her a bit. (As well it should have.) She's driven it once since I fixed it and unfortunately, all of that fear is gone now.


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## ErinH

Well, after 13 years and 250k miles and at least four years of bluffing myself, I finally did it. Today I got myself a new car. 2019 Honda Civic Hatchback Sport (non-touring edition).


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## Jscoyne2

congratzz


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## WhereAmEye?

OooooooOOOOOOoooo very nice! Congrats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

Thanks, fellas.


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## ErinH




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## whoever

Congratulations Erin!


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## ErinH

I looked at quite a few cars the last few weeks. Ask my friends. They'll tell you I drove them nuts. I really liked a couple and kept coming back to the new Accord or CR-V. However, I chose this Civic for the following reasons:
1) I like hatchbacks. And, they are just easier to get bass right in, IME. 
2) The gas mileage. I drive 80 miles round trip each day.
3) We already own a 2018 CR-V so I didn't really need a larger car for family stuff. I just need a good car that has a decent platform for aftermarket audio, enough space for me and my family to make quick trips around town, and something I could see myself still driving 10 years from now.
4) I think it looks pretty sharp. 
5) It wasn't uber expensive and leaves me enough money to do some audio stuff. 
6) It's fun to drive. It ain't the world's fastest car but you have to remember I'm coming from a 2006 civic with 250k miles on it. So, this thing is like a race car to me. It's got some nice speed, takes corners like a champ... I won't be driving it like a bat out of hell but just being able to finally merge without fearing my engine is going to fall out from the workload it's under is a big improvement. 


I'm not sure exactly what I'll do in the new civic audio wise. The good things about this particular model that I like, though, are: OEM radio can easily be swapped out with an aftermarket headunit. Huge plus there. That's why I got this trim level. It's relatively quiet inside so I won't have to spend a ton of money making it quieter. Dash and sails look promising. Kick area has a lot of space under the driver's side dash/floor and a decent bit of space behind the passenger's side dash/floor. 

I do know that I won't be making this my experiment car. I did that with my old civic. I learned a LOT doing 20 different installs in it. And I do know that I don't want to have dash pods; certainly not large ones. I also don't want to cut the kicks out like I did the old civic which gets back to my comment about there being possibly enough space to build some sealed enclosures in the kicks/up behind the dash. I have a lot of ideas, though. I'm going to talk to my installer (Steve Cook) about them and see what he thinks. I trust him as much as I trust anyone else in the audio hobby so hopefully between the two of us we can find a solution that works well for me. 

No idea when I'll begin the process on the new car but I'll start a new build log once I get rolling. 

I still have the old civic as you can see. Not sure what I'm going to do with it yet. May take it to finals in October or I may go ahead and start gutting it soon, once it cools off. In the meantime, if there's anyone who might have serious interest in buying my old civic as it sits, with the entire system and tune in it and with it's mechanical issues (A/C compressor will need to be replaced, SRS airbag warning light has been going on/off the past few days), let me know. I may consider selling it if there's a buyer. Ballpark figure around $6-7k; I'd have to total up the parts in it and figure add $1000 for the car. Most likely, however, I'll gut it and sell it locally or take it to a salvage yard.


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## bigbubba

That's one good looking car man. Anxious to see what you and Steve plan for this one.


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## Niebur3

Congrats Erin! Very nice looking car. Can't wait to see what you do for the stereo in it!


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## benny z

Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!


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## gumbeelee

ErinH said:


> I looked at quite a few cars the last few weeks. Ask my friends. They'll tell you I drove them nuts. I really liked a couple and kept coming back to the new Accord or CR-V. However, I chose this Civic for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) I like hatchbacks. And, they are just easier to get bass right in, IME.
> 
> 2) The gas mileage. I drive 80 miles round trip each day.
> 
> 3) We already own a 2018 CR-V so I didn't really need a larger car for family stuff. I just need a good car that has a decent platform for aftermarket audio, enough space for me and my family to make quick trips around town, and something I could see myself still driving 10 years from now.
> 
> 4) I think it looks pretty sharp.
> 
> 5) It wasn't uber expensive and leaves me enough money to do some audio stuff.
> 
> 6) It's fun to drive. It ain't the world's fastest car but you have to remember I'm coming from a 2006 civic with 250k miles on it. So, this thing is like a race car to me. It's got some nice speed, takes corners like a champ... I won't be driving it like a bat out of hell but just being able to finally merge without fearing my engine is going to fall out from the workload it's under is a big improvement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what I'll do in the new civic audio wise. The good things about this particular model that I like, though, are: OEM radio can easily be swapped out with an aftermarket headunit. Huge plus there. That's why I got this trim level. It's relatively quiet inside so I won't have to spend a ton of money making it quieter. Dash and sails look promising. Kick area has a lot of space under the driver's side dash/floor and a decent bit of space behind the passenger's side dash/floor.
> 
> 
> 
> I do know that I won't be making this my experiment car. I did that with my old civic. I learned a LOT doing 20 different installs in it. And I do know that I don't want to have dash pods; certainly not large ones. I also don't want to cut the kicks out like I did the old civic which gets back to my comment about there being possibly enough space to build some sealed enclosures in the kicks/up behind the dash. I have a lot of ideas, though. I'm going to talk to my installer (Steve Cook) about them and see what he thinks. I trust him as much as I trust anyone else in the audio hobby so hopefully between the two of us we can find a solution that works well for me.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea when I'll begin the process on the new car but I'll start a new build log once I get rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> I still have the old civic as you can see. Not sure what I'm going to do with it yet. May take it to finals in October or I may go ahead and start gutting it soon, once it cools off. In the meantime, if there's anyone who might have serious interest in buying my old civic as it sits, with the entire system and tune in it and with it's mechanical issues (A/C compressor will need to be replaced, SRS airbag warning light has been going on/off the past few days), let me know. I may consider selling it if there's a buyer. Ballpark figure around $6-7k; I'd have to total up the parts in it and figure add $1000 for the car. Most likely, however, I'll gut it and sell it locally or take it to a salvage yard.




Now thats when u know that you LOVE car audio when you buy a certain trim package on a particular model because its way more user friendly for aftermarket audio mods. Congrats on the new ride, that little baby looks SHARP! Like the dual exhaust coming out the middle. Also on another subject looks like u got her parked beside of a sweet lookjng crib from what i can see!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mullings

Maaaaan, the old one is good for another 250k miles lol. The new one is sweet though, can’t wait to see what you do with this one, I know you already start taking apart panels to check speaker fitment.


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## I800C0LLECT

Those are great vehicles. The hatchback is the only one I thought about purchasing. It's the best all around vehicle Honda makes. Can't wait to see what this will turn into 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## rockinridgeline

Congrats Erin. I was looking at the pics of the new ride and it occurred to me that every time I've seen one of these on the road I've stared at the lines. Honda's designers managed to go big and bold while making it all cohesive at the same time. That is difficult to do. I especially like the booty on this car!

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## BigAl205

Some new tag possibilities:


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## ErinH

gumbeelee said:


> Now thats when u know that you LOVE car audio when you buy a certain trim package on a particular model because its way more user friendly for aftermarket audio mods. Congrats on the new ride, that little baby looks SHARP! Like the dual exhaust coming out the middle. Also on another subject looks like u got her parked beside of a sweet lookjng crib from what i can see!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL. Yea, the audio aspect was a primary influence on my car choice. There were other options that may have been better in one way or another but they also had OEM systems that couldn't easily be bypassed or removed at all.

Thanks on the crib comment. We love it out here. So much, in fact, we actually had another house down the street which we sold 7 years ago. Planned to move closer to work but wound up building here again because we couldn't find an area we liked more. The price I pay is the 80 mile drive to work/home each day and I may complain about it, but it's worth it. 




Mullings said:


> Maaaaan, the old one is good for another 250k miles lol. The new one is sweet though, can’t wait to see what you do with this one, I know you already start taking apart panels to check speaker fitment.


lol. The engine could probably go forever. But here's the kicker. I was leaving work about 3 weeks ago and the car just wouldn't go. Took it to a shop and the spark plugs and ignition coils were replaced (which is understandable after 250k miles). I told myself no more repairs on the car. Then the ac went out on me about 2 weeks ago at literally the hottest 2 days of the year thus far and the SRS has been throwing a failure code intermittently. So I decided it was time to move on from it.

And, yep, already started pulling panels up front. 





I800C0LLECT said:


> Those are great vehicles. The hatchback is the only one I thought about purchasing. It's the best all around vehicle Honda makes. Can't wait to see what this will turn into
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk





rockinridgeline said:


> Congrats Erin. I was looking at the pics of the new ride and it occurred to me that every time I've seen one of these on the road I've stared at the lines. Honda's designers managed to go big and bold while making it all cohesive at the same time. That is difficult to do. I especially like the booty on this car!
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


Thanks, guys. What's funny is when they came out a couple years ago I didn't like them. But they've grown on me as I've seen them out and about. I think it looks sharp. Not as fancy as some other cars I considered but still an overall good choice for me.


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## ErinH

BigAl205 said:


> Some new tag possibilities:














 


Edit: I do like your #2, 3, and 4, though. 


I'm thinking ...
"DISNEY"
"SQCIVIC"
"AL SUX"


something along those lines...


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## bbfoto

Congrats, Erin! Sharp lookin' car. ?

The old Civic has certainly served you and your audio obsession well, but you're smart to know when to throw in the cards to avoid throwing money away towards perpetual maintenance issues.

I'm as interested as everyone else here to see what you come up with for the audio system in the new ride without having the freedom to chop it up.

You'll get there eventually, tho', haha!  I told myself the same...didn't want to do anything to muck it up or void the warranty, blah, blah, blah...but that only lasted a year & a half. 

I'm in for the (audio) ride.


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## diy.phil

Congrats Erin!! That's a beautiful new Civic ! You have lots of spoilers and wings!


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## porscheman

Wait, does this mean the tale has ended?


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## dumdum

gumbeelee said:


> Now thats when u know that you LOVE car audio when you buy a certain trim package on a particular model because its way more user friendly for aftermarket audio mods. Congrats on the new ride, that little baby looks SHARP! Like the dual exhaust coming out the middle. Also on another subject looks like u got her parked beside of a sweet lookjng crib from what i can see!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m considering buying a whole new vehicle just for competing, it makes sense rather than beating yourself up trying to get decent acoustics in something that’s not suited ??

Nice car Erin! If you’d care to click add as friend on Facebook I’d appreciate it ?? Adam ?


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## ErinH

porscheman said:


> Wait, does this mean the tale has ended?



Yep. Probably time to end this log. 

I may take the old civic to finals one last time. But I don’t know. Playing that by ear. The reason I am keeping it is so I’ll have something to drive around while I’m working on the new one. 



I know this may sound weird but I just want to thank you all for jumping in and enjoying the ride (no pun intended) with me. It’s been a trip. I’ve learned a lot about audio through my trials and tribulations with this car. I’ve also learned a lot through all y’alls feedback. More importantly, I’ve made some excellent friends with the doorways this car has opened, going to meets and shows. 

I'm going to consider this chapter closed. I'll update this thread when I start a build log on the new car.


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## naiku

ErinH said:


> More importantly, I’ve made some excellent friends with the doorways this car has opened, going to meets and shows.


One of, if not the greatest things about this hobby.


Looking forward to what you decide with the new car and hopefully getting a demo sometime in the future.


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## ErinH

If anyone is going to be at finals in October (or lives close enough to Decatur/Huntsville, AL ad is willing to drive) and is interested in buying my pair of AE SBP15-8's, let me know. I don't have a shipping box and don't want to ship them. Figure $400 for the pair, hand delivered. I just ask they be paid for in advance, if you plan to pick them up at finals, so I don't have to deal with someone changing their mind and getting stuck in a weird situation. 

Here's the specs page:
Acoustic Elegance SBP15 woofer for Sealed Box Applications

Again, mine are 8 ohm, which can be wired down to a 4 ohm load.


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## schmiddr2

I drive a lot and find the new civic with 1.5T to be a very good all around car. Seems like they took quite a step forward with this generation. More power, more high end options, nice ride and handling. Except, as you know, the audio sucks and needs to be changed out. It has reasonable noise level, that can obviously be improved. And if you want to feel the full capability of the 1.5 liter engine, get a Ktuner and put some 93 octane in the tank...pretty fun.

Enjoy it man. Car looks great. Can't wait to see what all you get into with the audio.


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## cmusic

ErinH said:


> If anyone is going to be at finals in October (or lives close enough to Decatur/Huntsville, AL ad is willing to drive) and is interested in buying my pair of AE SBP15-8's, let me know. I don't have a shipping box and don't want to ship them. Figure $400 for the pair, hand delivered. I just ask they be paid for in advance, if you plan to pick them up at finals, so I don't have to deal with someone changing their mind and getting stuck in a weird situation.
> 
> Here's the specs page:
> Acoustic Elegance SBP15 woofer for Sealed Box Applications
> 
> Again, mine are 8 ohm, which can be wired down to a 4 ohm load.


Are they Apollo editions? I've got two never used SBP12-8As with the Apollo upgrade that I have not installed yet but I have been thinking of going bigger, not that I really need too....


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## ErinH

Nope. Regular version without the apollo upgrade. I saw no cost benefit in getting the apollo version for my application.


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## Stycker

Nice new car. I know your getting itchy to start. Every time I buy a new car I tell myself I'm not going to put a system in it. Its always just a matter of time. I was leasing a 2015 Cadillac ATS and didn't want to molest that car during the lease. When the lease was over I decided not to keep it because the interior was too nice for me to practice on with fiberglass and Bondo. I picked up a brand new Chevy Sonic hatchback. I'm not afraid to rip out panels and drill holes all over the place after all its just a Sonic. I don't even get upset when somebody dents my side with their car door. I'm going to try fabbing my second set of a-pillars soon. I'm definitely not afraid to work on this car and try different things. When my skills improve then I'll move onto a nicer car. Looking forward to your build.


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## rton20s

Congratulations on the new ride! Now all you need is a box of drywall screws, and you can make quick work of transferring the entire audio system over.


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## ErinH

rton20s said:


> Congratulations on the new ride! Now all you need is a box of drywall screws, and you can make quick work of transferring the entire audio system over.


I’ll just screw the old one down on top of the new one.


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## Hillbilly SQ

Nice car Erin! I really like the new gen Civic. And good job choosing a trim level that doesn't require jumping through hoops to get a good source in the dash. Saves a good bit of money tooI look forward to seeing what you do with this car. At least you have a good idea of how to acoustically do a one and done install but we all know you'll have a completely new system every year or twoI think you might have a good chance of keeping your old car in the hobby if you really put the word out there for anyone who might want a dedicated comp and/or show car for their shop. You did go from n00b to certified mad scientist with the old car


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## mumbles

Hows the install coming... got that new system in yet? How 'bout now? Now?


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## BigAl205

I'm going to have to swing by there sometime and stress test the seat and suspension


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## Darkrider

Where are the boot pics?


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## ErinH

Darkrider said:


> Where are the boot pics?
















mumbles said:


> Hows the install coming... got that new system in yet? How 'bout now? Now?


Yep! All done! Looks like factory, too!


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## bigbubba

I was just going back through looking at all the revisions this car went through and I came across this pic. Brought back some bad memories. I damn near pulled a nut trying to get this thing off the floorboard that day. We were using screw drivers and pry bars. Thought I was going to pass out.


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## ErinH

good times!


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## preston

I'm just afraid the new car will not be as aggressive as the last one. No giant pods, no IB 10" woofers ? 
I love extreme builds that are at the same time not ridiculous and I loved the final format of this car (well except I loved the giant MC amp). But if you can achieve the same SQ with more stealth and less cutting that will be interesting as well. 

Either way the real reward is your effort in sharing with the rest of us. 

I finished a pretty interesting build on my truck last December and have been too lazy to write it up for the forum, so I definitely appreciate your documentation efforts.


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## SkizeR

preston said:


> I'm just afraid the new car will not be as aggressive as the last one. No giant pods, no IB 10" woofers ?


Oh don't worry, Erin is going to do it how he truly wants it the first time around. Right, Erin?


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## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> Oh don't worry, Erin is going to do it how he truly wants it the first time around. Right, Erin?


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## ErinH

preston said:


> I'm just afraid the new car will not be as aggressive as the last one.


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## Hillbilly SQ

I bet the new car will still blow your hair back with basically no distortion. Last time I heard the old car I did what he asked and turned it up to ELEVEN. It was quite the experience!


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## ErinH

SkizeR said:


> Oh don't worry, Erin is going to do it how he truly wants it the first time around. Right, Erin?





rton20s said:


>


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## ErinH

Kidding aside, no this won't have huge speakers. No, there won't be any cutting of metal (at least for some time). The beauty of a hatchback is you can run the sub higher because you have less issues causing you to need to cross them low. Takes the load off the midbass which takes the load off the rest of the system up the chain. So, yea, no 10" midbass with a 4" hole cut in the firewall. But with what I've got planned, I'll enjoy it all the same.


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## ErinH

Fire sale time...


Gutting the civic. This is what I have left:
(2) Zapco Z-150.6 AP with original boxes - $1100/each or $2050/pair shipped. The retail on these is $1800/each. Beautiful amps with impeccable sound. Just not going to be re-used because I simply want to try something else out and I don't think these will fit the install I'm going for in the new car.

(2) Acoustic Elegance SBP15-8 - SOLD. 

(2) Ciare HW251N with original boxes - $205/pair shipped. These suckers are the absolute BEST 10 inch midbass I have ever used. Relatively high sensitivity without the high Fs most pro-audio drivers have. Good power handling.


These are all used. With the subs, I don't have the packaging to ship them. I would much prefer someone pick the subs up from me. I live near Huntsville, AL and can meet you in that area. Or I could meet you at Finals in October in Louisville, KY. The other items' price include shipping in the CONUS. 

I'll make a proper For Sale thread with pictures and all that once I take it all out. But figure I'd give people watching this thread first dibs. If you're interested PM me.


*My BMS speakers not for sale.


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## ErinH

Here’s as far as I got with finishing the zapco amp install. But it at least shows their condition.


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## Gas Is Expensive

ErinH said:


> Here’s as far as I got with finishing the zapco amp install. But it at least shows their condition.


G'damn, these amps are marvelous. Whoever can afford to pick them up from you will be getting a great deal. Lucky bastard(s).


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## ErinH

I had some really neat plans to show them off... I was just waiting until late September for it to cool off before I did anything else. Really lovely amps with great sound. Low noise floor and high power.


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## bbfoto

ErinH said:


> Fire sale time...
> 
> (2) Ciare HW251N with original boxes - $205/pair shipped. These suckers are the absolute BEST 10 inch midbass I have ever used. Relatively high sensitivity without the high Fs most pro-audio drivers have. Good power handling.


Erin, I *might* be interested in trying these to combine with my set of BMS concentrics. I'll PM you if I get serious and to see if they're still available. 

GLWS of everything else. It's all seriously nice chit you got there!


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## ErinH

Thanks, Billy. 



Update: subs are sold.


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## gumbeelee

Geez those amps arr beautiful


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ErinH

Indeed, they are.


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## ErinH

FWIW, I listed the amps for sale here. Sold one already so I have one more left.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...s/420861-fs-2-zapco-z-150-6ap-amplifiers.html


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## ErinH

Alright, progress has started on the new Civic. If any of you guys want to follow along, here's a link to the build log:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru.../421283-2019-honda-civic-hatchback-sport.html


I'm gonna close this thread temporarily, at least, just so it doesn't get accidentally bumped.


----------

