# How to make my system sound more crisp/realistic



## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Good day everyone, i'd like to get suggestions on how to make my 3way system sound more realistic i.e. make you feel like in a real concert, where the snare drum feels like it's hitting you in the face lol

my system sounds good but lacks realism, to explain more it's kinda like listening to headphones and you just hear the instruments,not feel them. It images nicely and most people like the sound already hehe but i just dont feel the music.

here is my system:
alpine 9887

focal 3way polyglass V3E, with mids tweets on apillars

jbl 75.4ii (front channel to tweets+ midrange through passives. Rear channel to midbasses active)

passive for tweet set at -3. At -6 it sounds nasal and at 0 it's too loud for me

jbl gto 1202d in sealed box running on 300rms jbl mono amp.

Stinger wires

my crossover settings are:
sub 80 12/db
midbass 80 12/db to 315 12/db
midrange+tweets set to flat since it's passives. If im right thats at around 300hz. Eq is almost flat.

i compared my system to an spl system and with songs in general, the mids are so crisp that the percussion sounds realistic. It was a pair of ciare 8inch mids, then ciare tweets all powered by sundown amps. Just on the doors without t.a. Same thing with a 6.5 helix precision separates sq system also powered by sundown. Eq was flat!

The installer told me that it's the 8inch mids so i can't do that to my 4inch focal midrange. I tried overlapping my midrange and midbass frequencies and got that realistic effect, but vocals and mostly everything else sounded like a tin can.

im thinking of the ff:

1. Wire front stage through passive, Add hafler effect rearfill, so that more mids will not affect the sound of vocals,just the instruments will sound thicker

2. Change to a sundown amp

3. Tinker more with xover,eq, tweet level with your help.

i definitely wont change my 3way because the tweets and midrange are mounted in pillar already. Hoping for your suggestions, thanks!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Oftentimes I find that the problem is more with the recording than the system it's played back on.


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## timelord9 (Jun 4, 2008)

realism, from my understanding, is driven by imaging (which you say you already have), tonality (which you sort of have) and dynamics, which is what it seems to me might be lacking in your system. 

To get great dynamics you either have to have very sensitive speakers (which get loud off not much power) or lots of power to give you headroom in the music. The latter is easier to get. I would suggest perhaps adding a second 4x75w amp and using it bridged to your midbass speakers. 

The next thing to think about is midbass. Quite often, 6.5" midbass drivers simply cant play into the lower midbass with enough authority to give you the realism you're looking for, especially if you're comparing it to a drum solo. I would possibly think about looking to fit an 8" or larger midbass, run semi active (ie mid+tweet via passive off amp 1, midbass using amp crossovers on amp 2). 

I can assume that seeing your gear and your understanding that everything is sound deadened correctly, and your midbass is wired in phase?

See if you can get your system on an RTA to see if there are any gaping holes in your frequency response that might have been masked until now. 

I'm sure others will point out some things to try before you go buying new gear too. 

peace

Matt


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## ehkewley (Jul 19, 2008)

npdang said:


> Oftentimes I find that the problem is more with the recording than the system it's played back on.


I've recently grown fond of well recorded live albums. Much better dynamic range, and less compression on instruments.


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Thanks! My midbass is in phase, tested by ear by scrolling balance L and R, at center the midbass is good. The percussion of the ciare was also great in attack btw hehe.

The ciare was also high passed quite high at 160hz so it might be an issue with my midrange?

I used my songs when i auditioned and the difference really was night and day 

my focal is 93db sensitive, the helix was only 88db if im not mistaken. Must be the sundown amp then?

also, my amp gives 100x4 power, and the focal set is only 80rms. And i power them active, so i guess power must not be an issue? My gains are kinda low though. With clair marlo and some sq songs i could max out volume already. Maybe this affects the dynamics?

okay i will try RTA as well ü most people here just use their ears hehe. Did you achieve better dynamic sound when everything is flat already?some people say they didnt like how their system sounded after rta tuning. Thanks


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

Where are your midbass drivers mounted?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

by EQ is flat are you simply saying that the EQ on the head unit is set to flat? of thats the case it does not mean the response is flat. odds are you have some big peaks somewhere causing problems. valleys in response are less of a concern unless its a complete null.
Peaks will stand out and pull attention away from other aspects.

realism will come from more tuning. you have good enough equipment and sounds like a decent enough install.

imaging has little to do with realism. Does a flute sound like a flute, does a violin sound like a violin or a cello? and has noting to do with a specific location, which is imaging. Imaging is locations of instruments and vocals on or within a soundstage.
Imaging can be an aspect of overall realism of a recording, but its a small aspect


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Midbass in stock door location. Doors are deadened as well.


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

bloodlord said:


> Midbass in stock door location. Doors are deadened as well.


Are the doors sealed? And how are they mounted in the door, did you make a baffle and are the baffles nice and leak proof? Also, is your system lacking volume?


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Yup, i chose almost flat eq not because i want it to be literally flat in real time. It just sounds better with details than how i and others did with lots of adjustments. I guess i would need to do Rta soon hehe!


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

How would you define sealed doors?inner and outer door shell were deadened. My midbass has an mdf spacer strengthened with fg resin. However i still use the stock speaker grills. 

Is this a midbass issue? Because snare attack is also dependent on upper midrange and tweet if im not mistaken this is also where crispiness is. I tried lowering xover level of tweet and midrange to bring out the midbass but it sounded nasal and lost detail. Thats what leads me to think it's the midrange or dynamics i have to improve on. My midbass has some kick and i could hear the bass guitar clearly.

i dont think my system lacks volume, although my normal listening is usually volume 20+ out of 35. 

in drum tracks the percussion is very crisp but in songs with lots of instruments there's no more impact. Dont know if this is relevant..

In most songs, the vocals are the loudest part of my system. In the ciare and helix systems, all the percussion instruments plus vocals are loud and crisp. Ex. The first two minutes of hotel california live, the snare clicks were very crisp, and the tomtom before the first stanza was loud too. mine seems to be far off in the background and doesnt feel real, though i cAn hear it clearly. If i crank up the volume more the vocals are too loud already.


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## cyberdraven (Oct 28, 2009)

I guess your lacking power. Try to increase your gains a bit or add another amplifier. Ive used focal vr3 before and they are really power hungry. Also, try putting deflex pads in your mids. This will reduce reflections. Deadening is only to reduce noise. if everything fails, try to reverse the polarity, sometimes this also cures the accoustical balance of your system.

Your HU is good but still sounds thin. After putting enough power to your seps, play with the crossover and tune it properly. Next upgrade would be to get a better Head Unit - 9833, 9855, 9813, 9835 or 7998R.


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## cyberdraven (Oct 28, 2009)

PS - tweak your gains at volume 27. Play attention with the distorsion. Volume 27 is the setting wherein Alpine produces 4V output.


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## Nitin (May 28, 2008)

> Next upgrade would be to get a better Head Unit - 9833, 9855, 9813, 9835 or 7998R.


are you saying that those would be better than the 9887 that he has right now ?

why would you think that ?


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

The 9887 sounds thinner than the older models, but i prefer it still hehehe. Besides, the helix speakers were running on the 9887.

I could reverse polarity of the midbasses, maybe it would blend better with the midrange and tweeter that way. 

i want to do something simple since the ones i heard really sound good out of the box, im thinking it really might be the amp. I'll try borrowing a sundown soon hehehe.

Have a listen this friday cyberdraven ü


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## cyberdraven (Oct 28, 2009)

bloodlord said:


> The 9887 sounds thinner than the older models, but i prefer it still hehehe. Besides, the helix speakers were running on the 9887.
> 
> I could reverse polarity of the midbasses, maybe it would blend better with the midrange and tweeter that way.
> 
> ...



Yes Sir! See you in the sausage feast! hehehe. Nice system you have, might be cured by tuning.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

Get better mids. Going to a 7" mid will give you more impact. I highly reccomend the Seas W18NX or Usher 8945P. If you are on a budget, get the ID OEM mids (version 1).
Get more power to your mids. You need more headroom to play dynamic passages. When that snare cracks, your amp is being taxed. I'd suggest getting at least 150 watts and better yet 200 watts to your mids. Digital Designs S4, Zuki Eleets, Phoenix Gold 4.200 come to mind.
Do some tuning. You don't have to use an RTA. Get a CD with test tones and figure out which frequencies are causing problems.

Do the things above and I think you will find a major change in the sound and realism.


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Thanks, i'll go with #3 since i cant afford new midbasses and door mod hehe! Are my xover settings okay? Not sure if i'll get that snare crack if it's just midbass. What about my midrange is the power enough?

How do i go about with test tones? I might have a test cd somewhere.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

find or download 1/3octave test tones.
Focal Test Cd has them on it. someone had all the Focal Cds available for download on this forum.
get a cheap SPL meter, like a radio shack spl meter.

set everything to flat, so no eq, no ta. set XO points.

balance to one side.

place mic at the headrest in driver seat in approx position as your head.

set volume to maybe 10..donot play this very loud.play each test tone and look at the level in Decibels.
write it down.

once youve gone through all. look at the approximate level of each one. 
If you're like at 75db at 160hz and 72db at 200hz and then 70db at 250hz...then 70db is your baseline. 160hz would need cut by approx 5db, 200by 2db etc....
Keep in mind making adjustments even w a graphic EQ, will affect the neighboring bands. so you may not need a full 5db cut.

donot boost any dips, just cut out peaks. so if one band is 72db and one is 67db and one is 70db...just cut the 72db one. leave the 67 one alone.


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

thanks bro, I think my friend gave me a copy of that focal test cd. don't have graphic eq though, only 5 band parametric 

I tinkered with my t.a. tonight, and by delaying the a-pillar speakers to the midbass, the sound became a lot thicker. (i set it by ear, first balancing all the way to left, then right) However i feel the stage has been pulled down a little. Will let other sq addicts in my area listen first hehehe then i'll update everyone here.


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## timelord9 (Jun 4, 2008)

one of the other things to do, which it sounds like you have started doing, is listening to lots of other high quality systems and comparing the difference to yours. Why does one have more "kick" than the other? Can you turn up the volume on one and not the other before the sound gets too harsh? Do the systems that perform better in your opinion have larger/different drivers etc etc. 

If you have an iphone, get the studiosixdigital RTA/FFT app. that way you can see very quickly what the peaks and dips of one system might be compared to yours. 

I personally believe that imaging plays a more than a small part of creating realism, but thats another debate!

To put this in perspective, I recently changed amps from 2 x JL audio 300/4 to 2 x Steg 75.4. Tweeters and midrange get 75w each, midbass moved from 150w to 250w per side. Listening to the drum track on Sheffield Drive, the impact and realism of the drums have decreased since changing the amps. The only difference is that the gains are on 0 (for the moment!) on the Stegs, and the JL's were turned up a little bit. At max volume, the old setup was scary (like my speakers sound like they're going to snap scary!) compared to the smooth, "no worries" sound at the moment. 

I'll let you know what I think when I turn the new amps up...

so: 
moar powar!
bigger midbass!
moar tuning! 

I don't think that changing amp brands is going to help that much, unless you're getting a substantial power increase...


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

cyberdraven said:


> I guess your lacking power. Try to increase your gains a bit or add another amplifier. Ive used focal vr3 before and they are really power hungry. Also, try putting deflex pads in your mids. This will reduce reflections. Deadening is only to reduce noise. if everything fails, try to reverse the polarity, sometimes this also cures the accoustical balance of your system.
> 
> Your HU is good but still sounds thin. After putting enough power to your seps, play with the crossover and tune it properly. Next upgrade would be to get a better Head Unit - 9833, 9855, 9813, 9835 or 7998R.


Shhhhhhh......


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

cyberdraven said:


> PS - tweak your gains at volume 27. Play attention with the distorsion. Volume 27 is the setting wherein Alpine produces 4V output.




That's not true on any level and would refrain from saying something like that again in this forum.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

i'll have to agree with npdang on recording quality.
from an installation standpoint, try eliminating diffraction as much as possible around the location immediately surrounding the tweeter as well as the midrange.

noise sound weather diffraction


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bloodlord said:


> thanks bro, I think my friend gave me a copy of that focal test cd. don't have graphic eq though, only 5 band parametric
> 
> I tinkered with my t.a. tonight, and by delaying the a-pillar speakers to the midbass, the sound became a lot thicker. (i set it by ear, first balancing all the way to left, then right) However i feel the stage has been pulled down a little. Will let other sq addicts in my area listen first hehehe then i'll update everyone here.


so find out where your largest peaks are and EQ tho...this isnt nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. Its so funny that people who really have no idea what the are doing just automatically tell people to buy more equipment, and change this and that.

You have decent enough equipment and assuming the install is solid, we can only take your word for that--rest is tuning. The area of equiptment you could be lacking based on your goals is processing


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> so find out where your largest peaks are and EQ tho...this isnt nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. Its so funny that people who really have no idea what the are doing just automatically tell people to buy more equipment, and change this and that.
> 
> You have decent enough equipment and assuming the install is solid, we can only take your word for that--rest is tuning. The area of equiptment you could be lacking based on your goals is processing


Well said!


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## maxxis (Jun 10, 2008)

Nitin said:


> are you saying that those would be better than the 9887 that he has right now ?
> 
> why would you think that ?


Naughty, unfortunately we found the same thing.

The 9887 thins out above 24 volume and get a little bright. But it is more detailed than the 9835 for example. I cant comment on the 7998R though.

The 9887 still is a fantastic deck.


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## SkodaTeam (Feb 26, 2009)

maxxis said:


> Naughty, unfortunately we found the same thing.
> 
> The 9887 thins out above 24 volume and get a little bright. But it is more detailed than the 9835 for example. I cant comment on the 7998R though.
> 
> The 9887 still is a fantastic deck.


Little offtopic , theese 2, compared to 800PRS??


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

You have a good system. It should sound very good. 
Where are the midranges an tws located?

More headroom is good so use ALL your amp for the Focals using the passive for all the three drivers. Bridge your amp to each channel.

EQ Flat? every system have BIG peaks and dips.

If you want more impact you need a bit more 1,5khz-4khz, not more bass.

It looks like your midrange driver output is masked by the active drived midbass.
Tell us a bit more about where are the drivers installed.


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## Nitin (May 28, 2008)

maxxis said:


> Naughty, unfortunately we found the same thing.
> 
> The 9887 thins out above 24 volume and get a little bright. But it is more detailed than the 9835 for example. I cant comment on the 7998R though.
> 
> The 9887 still is a fantastic deck.


with all of that though how are you sure that the thinner sound of the 9887 is not the more realistic ideal and the 9835 isnt a coloration - maybe it could be the rest of the equipment that makes the 9887 sound over thin if it is over thin and bright ? the sound you hear is a representation of the system not of one component 

the only issue i have with the 9887 is the system hiss - other than that if you tune adequately i cannot fault it - in fact one of the best sounding systems ive heard "ever" uses an imprint adjusted 9887 (and ive heard plenty) - so most of what you guys complain about can be sorted with good matching equipment and tuning IMHO 

besides with the amount of EQ and T/A most people begin to apply on the deck how do they know that they are not throwing the actual natural sound off kilter - which is why i do most of my critical listening with the defeat on


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## maxxis (Jun 10, 2008)

So true what you say about the EQ and TA. Unfortunately we could find the thinning on 2 different systems. 

What you say about it possible being coloration on the 9835 could very well be true. Im not too worried about it. I still love 9887


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Hernan said:


> You have a good system. It should sound very good.
> Where are the midranges an tws located?
> 
> More headroom is good so use ALL your amp for the Focals using the passive for all the three drivers. Bridge your amp to each channel.
> ...


The midrange and tweets are mounted on the dash.  midbAss in stock door location.

update: Right now im getting to my goal. I increased gain of midbass, then cut at 400hz to reduce nasal sound, then a +1 boost at 2khz and 10khz to compensate. I am still waiting for my friend for Rta tuning.ü My eq is not flat but i try to limit it to 3db difference.

after turning up gain and adjusting eq, the snare is very crisp to my liking, but i feel the midbasses are vibrating too much and i think i need to use at least 100 to 125hz hpf. Any tips how to solve this?whether through xover, eq, or level/gain. I believe theres a proper combination for what im looking for i just havent found it yet!


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## andrei812 (Oct 8, 2009)

1234


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

andrei812 said:


> 1234


::sigh::


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## GregU (Dec 24, 2008)

maxxis - The 9887 does not "thin" out at above 24. It's dependant upon your tuning, amps, gains, equipment, x-over,EQ, etc.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

cyberdraven said:


> Your HU is good but still sounds thin. After putting enough power to your seps, play with the crossover and tune it properly. Next upgrade would be to get a better Head Unit - 9833, 9855, 9813, 9835 or 7998R.



I have the same problem with my 9887. It sounds "thin". Even people who know nothing about sound or car audio tell me to try and boost mid-range. Since this issue was brought up -- other than the models you listed what other competing products in the same price range would be comparable?


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Hi guys! Finally figured out the cause of this problem and I would just like to share it. After listening with test tones (without an RTA) there are monster peaks at 400hz and 800hz, with significant dips at 500hz and 1k - 1.6khz area. My midrange enclosure might be the culprit as it's kind of small when i checked the insides. Even a -6db in e.q. doesn't help, and it cuts the dips even further.

Also my A-pillars are aimed at the B-pillars and i might have to open them up a bit (maybe aimed at dome lights). Because with tweeter test-tones, the left side seems a lot weaker. Will let you know if i solved this problem or if i will still have to add another amplifier


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

dont worry about the dips only the peaks. cut the 400 and 800


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Hernan said:


> If you want more impact you need a bit more 1,5khz-4khz, not more bass.


This is the most useful suggestion in this entire thread. 

There's no need to replace any of your gear. Find someone with an RTA and tune the car.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkodaTeam said:


> Little offtopic , theese 2, compared to 800PRS??


I'd take the pio. Better tuning features.

To the OP, for your goals you need independent eq for left and right side over a minimum of 10-12 frequencies and time alignment. The 9887 gives you the later. For the former you will have to either get a processor like suggested, or a new hu. The 9887 is a great hu but if you want to get 'there' as opposed to, close to 'there', you will need the L/R eq.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hernan said:


> If you want more impact you need a bit more 1,5khz-4khz, not more bass.


Spot on. Opening this range a bit lets in more bass automatically and gives a sharper outline to the sound. Hence more impact.


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

hi everyone! Finally rebuilt my pillars with a bigger midrange enclosure and aimed more towards the listener. The result was amazing, when i played -14db test tones again by ear, The peaks were gone, same with the dips. Everything sounded almost ear-flat with a slight peak at 800 and 2.5k. so i was able to boost 1.5k - 4k around 2-3db. 

It now suits my preference and I found the sound i was looking for. It's not as dynamic as the other systems with lots of headroom, but i think ill enjoy this setup without an amp upgrade 

Here are some pictures of the new pillars. The right pillar is slightly different hehe but soundwise it's great  No problem with imaging either, left and right channel instruments are really more open and pronounced now 







Old pillars - aimed at rearview mirror, small midrange enclosure, and the tweeters are not in line with midrange driver


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## cyberdraven (Oct 28, 2009)

nice pillars you got there bro! But I dont agree that the modification did everything on the "crispiness" of sound that your looking for. I guess you did play with your slopes as well. Did the sound open better when you adjust the axis?


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

actually, it did. I actually turned off the crossovers for the midrange and tweeters and just let the passives do the work. Everything is flatter now and the dips are gone. hence more impact.  Then i added a bit of 1.6k on the eq around +2db. made it even better 

Yeah on-axis is way better in my case


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

I admire your dedication. Thanks for updating your progress! Pillars look great.


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## bloodlord (May 31, 2009)

Thanks! I think my case could be a good learning experience for everyone  The test tones technique was the key to solving my problem, i encourage everyone to use them even by just using their ears! I got my test tones from the Focal Tools CD. 

Thanks so much to everyone who contributed to this thread!


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