# Someone effed up my horns.... }:(



## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

Well dangit. 

Took my truck to be detailed and the next day noticed things didn't sound right AT ALL. Just no midbass, muddy detail, lots of breakup at moderate levels... <sigh>

So I took a look at my processor, and someone had been fuddling with it. I'm running a Behringer DCX, and the outputs are assignable for each speaker. I had a "hidden" kill switch installed up under the dash, and it kills the processor and all amps, so no way anyone could have fiddled with the processor without finding that killswitch to get it to even power on.

Sure glad I pulled the modular cable off my subs, who knows how badly they would have screwed up my 12s.

Anyways, it appears one of my midbass outputs had been reassigned to my left HLCD, and now the thing sounds tiny and tinny and crappy at moderate levels and is about 1/4 the volume of the right HLCD. I'm assuming the low-frequency signal killed my compression driver.

Running ID Comp v2 drivers on mini-horn bodies. The left body has been chopped slightly to accommodate placement, due to its proximity to the parking break and hood release.

So now I'm looking for suggestions for new compression drivers. I'm also going to be replacing one of my Anarchy midbasses, too. <sigh> I have a set of CDT ES-06+ to drop in to the midbass enclosures for now.

I've been looking on Parts Express, and I'm just not sure what to go with. I have all the power I'll ever need for them, and obviously the horns don't need anywhere near what the midbasses will need. But I'm looking for serious output without breaking up, and durability. I can afford a decent set, so money's not too much of an issue, I'd say up to $150 per driver, maybe. If there's a REALLY good reason, maybe more, but I'm not planning on competing or any of that, so no need for those JBL $800 ea compression drivers.

I'm not saying the ID drivers aren't any good, just wondering if there's something else out there I should try. This is my first HLCD setup, and I have absolutely loved it, but I won't be taking my truck back to this detail shop again.

Suggestions? I'd like to be able to run 1.0-1.2k HP, and can crossover steeply if need be. Like I said... massive output and durability is my biggest concern. I play a lot of metal and rock at high volume on the highway with the windows down, so there is alot of built-in distortion in the music.


----------



## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

I considered these:

B&C DE200-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 2/3-Bolt $109.50 ea
They've got a 1.6kHz crossover point at 12dB/oct. Not bad. Titanium diaphragm and ceramic magnet.

These look interesting:
B&C DE400TN 1" Neodymium Titanium Horn Driver 2-Bolt $166 ea
Titanium diaphragm, neo magnet and a copper "shorting cap". Recommended 1.5kHz crossover freq.

I see a lot of Celestion drivers on PE, but they mostly have recommended crossover frequencies of 2,200 or so. Not sure about their quality/sound, etc.

Should I just try to get a rebuild kit for the IDs or buy a used set from here?


----------



## req (Aug 4, 2007)

these will do good things for you, if you have the fullbody horns, they will play down to 800hz to 1.2khz or so with a 24db\oct slope too.

compressoin driver - Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8-18 264-274
adapter - Selenium ADF25-25 Horn Adapter 264-322

CD Ultra from Image Dynamics :uhoh: - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/327745-post22.html


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

I certainly hope you're going back to the detail shop to slap the piss out of somebody.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

benny said:


> I certainly hope you're going back to the detail shop to slap the piss out of somebody.


x2 I would be going back there it talk to somebody about replacing your broken stuff. there is no excuse for screwing with a customers stuff.


----------



## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

since you have a switch installed that prevents tampering, you can take them to court since its obvious they searched for the switch and intentionally messed with the programming. probably have to use small claims court though. I would raise hell first at the shop and get them to replace it.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeap raise hell.

The Celestion drivers are pretty good drivers.

Keep in mind the XO points for these drivers are for PA purposes.

Which drivers did you have? Chances are you could just have to replace the diaphrams to get them working again...if you wanted to keep those same drivers. The old CD2 comp drivers were either a B&C DE25 or a DE45 depending on if they were metal or mylar diaphrams.

I would point you towards the DE250.

But none of them are really going to get you past 1k on the low side with minihorns.

And if you see something at PE, let me know, I will check on wholesale pricing for you. Sometimes the discount is good and sometimes it is better to pay retail and get free shipping.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And another suggestion would be the BMS 4550 or 4552...depending on if you wanted neo or ceramic motors.


----------



## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

req said:


> these will do good things for you, if you have the fullbody horns, they will play down to 800hz to 1.2khz or so with a 24db\oct slope too.
> 
> compressoin driver - Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8-18 264-274
> adapter - Selenium ADF25-25 Horn Adapter 264-322
> ...


I run this exact setup. I love the seleniums. They sound really great.


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

If I ever figure out if I can fit some horns I'll probably try those Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8's. Their price hasn't changed (IIRC) since the Neo price hike.


----------



## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeap raise hell.
> 
> The Celestion drivers are pretty good drivers.
> 
> ...





thehatedguy said:


> And another suggestion would be the BMS 4550 or 4552...depending on if you wanted neo or ceramic motors.


I have the Comp v2 drivers, not sure what the OEM model would be.

Those BMS 4550s look quite interesting. I don't think the neo motors really would make much difference. The size difference is negligible.

You say the crossover points are for PA purposes... so does that mean I could get away with a lower x-over point in car audio use?

Not sure if I could get the diaphragms to rebuild them easily, though I'll keep it in mind to rebuild them if/when I replace them, and maybe sell them off.

As for going back and raising hell or suing them, it's really not worth it to me. Most of these guys don't even habla de Engrish, and if I started slapping them upside the head, they probably couldn't even figure out what I was mad about. And as for proving in court that they were the ones who effed it up, it's impossible and not really worth my time to try, honestly.

I may just go ahead and order some tonight or tomorrow so I can replace them when I'm at home next week. sounds like I can't really go wrong with many of the choices listed above. And if I'm unhappy, I can always try again later with another set. 

Really more worried about my midbass situation at the moment, and I'm not having any luck getting doorpanels made. <sigh> Really wanna drop 2 midbasses and a sub in each door. But I have one more lead to track down...


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

I cannot believe that you're going to swallow that. I thought you had bigger stones.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would go back and if you don't raise hell, at least talk to the manager or owner about what happened...no telling if that has happened before or you could prevent it from happening again.

The good thing about B&C drivers is there are tons of replacement parts for them...and they are easy to find. All you need to do is put up a picture of the drivers with the backs of them off so I (we) can see what the diaphram looks like. If it's metal, then it's a DE45 and if it is not metal (plastic, mylar, etc) then it is a DE25.

Right the crossover points you see listed for the drivers are for prosound applications. In a domesitic environment like a house or a car, we are using SO much less power to these guys so they are under so much less stress and excursion than they would be in a PA application. Case in point, Dr. Geddes pretty much made the DE250 popular from his designs...he is crossing the largest speaker at 900 hertz to the DE250, and it will knock your socks off from what I've been told. I played a couple of drivers at home fullrange with no XO on the bottom end at a reasonable level with no problems...wouldn't recommend it for a long period of time at a loud level, but they had to have been literally getting fractions of a fraction of a watt.

When I said you couldn't do 8-900 hertz on the minihorns wasn't exactly true. You CAN do it, but the driver will not be loaded below 1k. There isn't enough size on the minis to couple them effectivily to the air down that low so they will act as direct radiators.

Size is how Dr. Geddes gets down to 900 hertz on the DE250s in his Summas...he has a big waveguide to couple the compression driver to the air down that low.

So yeah, you can go below the stated XO point in a domestic environment...just don't be crazy and expect the little DE5 like I have to really handle playing 1k and up really well...or cross the DE500s at 600 hertz like I did. It did it, but after it was equalized I lost dynamics.

The Seleniums are decent drivers that are versitle to be used on either the big or minibodys. But there are much better drivers out there than the D2500Ti. I would take a B&C DE120 on the minihorn anyday before I went with a D2500Ti...it's $20 cheaper at retail pricing, is a bolt on driver vs. a screw on, has a mylar diaphram vs. the titanium on the Selenium, smaller, lighter, and the impedance curve of the B&C is much more tame than the Selenium.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Retail pricing on the diaphrams for the DE25 is about $50 and diaphrams for the DE45 are about $70...there are pictures of both on the Pro Sound Service website if you want to see what each one looks like.

Now the DE120 driver on that same website is right in the middle of those prices.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I would just repair the original ones and be done with it.

Is there a chance that they may have knocked some wiring loose and not borked up the settings int he DCX but rather re-wired your **** wrong?


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

I can get you original replacement diaphragms to repair the damage for far less than buying new drivers if you wish.

Eric 

Pm me if interested.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> I can get you original replacement diaphragms to repair the damage for far less than buying new drivers if you wish.
> 
> Eric
> 
> Pm me if interested.


If you don't do this Doc, yer nucking futs.... Or you can give them to me, I'll repair them and re-sell them


----------



## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

Eric Stevens said:


> I can get you original replacement diaphragms to repair the damage for far less than buying new drivers if you wish.
> 
> Eric
> 
> Pm me if interested.





chad said:


> If you don't do this Doc, yer nucking futs.... Or you can give them to me, I'll repair them and re-sell them


Haha... yeah... I'm PMing him now.  time is my biggest factor. i'm off all next week so I'd like to fix them then, but after that, I'll have to wait a few more weeks. <sigh>


----------



## cbrunhaver (Jun 28, 2006)

You can get the B&C DE200 for $75 here:

SP-000111-00

I am planning on buying a celestion CDX1-1425 from there for $60 also.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> The Seleniums are decent drivers that are versitle to be used on either the big or minibodys. But there are much better drivers out there than the D2500Ti. I would take a B&C DE120 on the minihorn anyday before I went with a D2500Ti...it's $20 cheaper at retail pricing, is a bolt on driver vs. a screw on, has a mylar diaphram vs. the titanium on the Selenium, smaller, lighter, and the impedance curve of the B&C is much more tame than the Selenium.


New DE120 looks like a nice driver.

I haven't listened to the DE120 but I have the DE500 and DE250 and compared them in an AB listening test to the D2500 and the preference easily went to the D2500. This surprised me as I had never liked any of their drivers previously.The impedance curves cant be compared as a determining factor unless both tested on the same horn or in the same way and the specs sheets for both are tested very differently (plane wave tube versus unloaded driver). Fundamental resonance of the D2500 is 750Hz and close to 1800 on the De120 so i doubt the DE120 would do well crossed below 1500 Hz even. 

Eric


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Comparing an impedance response with a driver off a horn is like comparing an impedance response of a woofer in and out of an enclosure. The horn makes that much of an impact. (not contradicting Eric, but echoing)

Because a horn IS an acoustic transformer. 

Just like in a true tube amp, you have an impedance response of a tube (hopefully flatish) and the impedance response of the speaker... Then you shove a transformer in the middle. The only difference is one is electromagnetic, the other is acoustic. This is also why they invented ultralinear taps and feedback taps


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Never mind the DE120 with the Fs being that high...


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

tR, I'll second hated's suggestion on the BMS 4550 as a backup to Eric's offer. I bought them last week to replace the DE500s I've been running for 2-3 years, and am very happy I did. They seem to need far less EQ and are very sparkly up top. I'm using them on mini lenses with a 1khz/-24db xover point. I'm not sure they'd fit on the minis with the bend on the mount, but the ones with the drivers that mount out straight to the sides fit just fine. The ones with the bend have to be modified to house a DE500, and the 4550 has a larger diameter. Not sure which lenses you have, but the 4550 is right in your price range- I bought mine from USSpeaker for $310 shipped for the pair.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

tRidiot said:


> I'm not saying the ID drivers aren't any good, just wondering if there's something else out there I should try. This is my first HLCD setup, and I have absolutely loved it, but I won't be taking my truck back to this detail shop again.
> 
> Suggestions? I'd like to be able to run 1.0-1.2k HP, and can crossover steeply if need be. Like I said... massive output and durability is my biggest concern. I play a lot of metal and rock at high volume on the highway with the windows down, so there is alot of built-in distortion in the music.


Heavy metal is actually a lot more 'revealing' than a lot of that smooth jazz nonsense that they play at the audio shows. A lot of those 'audiophile' jazz recordings have tons of euphonic distortion and a rolled off treble that masks problems with the tweeters. So, no shame in using metal to test out speakers, that's for sure. I use mono podcasts to evaluate speakers too - that always raises eyebrows. (mono male vocals can reveal problems with crossover phase in a hurry.)

Anyways, I'd do what Eric says, just replace the diaphragms. (Assuming you were happy with it beforehand?)

All of the car audio horns have a bend or a reflector in them, and the geometry of the phase plug will affect how that bend behaves. Basically, if the diaphragm of the compression driver isn't the same distance from the bend then the response will be quite a bit different.

It's a little easier to mix-and-match compression drivers when the horn is straight.

If you're in the mood to try something new, check out this thread:

1" driver recommendations for Altec 811 horns - diyAudio










I've been looking for an excuse to buy a pair of these Faitals. That orange phase plug seems to be a superior design to what is used by B&C and Selenium. The difference on axis should be fairly subtle, but off-axis should be quite significant. This is a big deal with underdash horns, because we're listening very very far off axis.

Also, I can't figure out if there's some type of connection between 18sound and Faital, because they both sell a driver that basically looks identical, and 18sound has a tech paper on this phase plug on their web site... even though both companies use the technology.

(It actually dates back to the 70s, but it's difficult to manufacture.)

It is also used in Kef's $30,000 flaghsip:


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Right the crossover points you see listed for the drivers are for prosound applications. In a domesitic environment like a house or a car, we are using SO much less power to these guys so they are under so much less stress and excursion than they would be in a PA application. Case in point, Dr. Geddes pretty much made the DE250 popular from his designs...he is crossing the largest speaker at 900 hertz to the DE250, and it will knock your socks off from what I've been told. I played a couple of drivers at home fullrange with no XO on the bottom end at a reasonable level with no problems...wouldn't recommend it for a long period of time at a loud level, but they had to have been literally getting fractions of a fraction of a watt.


I have a pair of those, and as I understand it, the compression driver is actually getting a fairly high amount of power. This is because the crossover is throwing away a ton of efficiency. For instance, on a tractrix or an exponential horn the on-axis response of the compression driver might be in the range of 105dB. But on a conical or oblate spheroid waveguide, the response is rolling off something like 6db/octave after the mass rolloff. Mass rolloff of a de250 is something like 2500hz iirc, so we're down 6db at 5khz, 12dB at 10khz, and about 15dB at 15khz.

So that 105dB compression driver is something like 90dB sensitive once you compensate for the mass rolloff!!

Crazy, huh?

This also affects all of Danley's Unity designs, and is likely why his 'high frequency combiner" was such a breakthrough.

As far as playing down to 900hz, yes that's a piece of cake because the diaphragm is so large:










I've always found that the biggest challenge in getting a compression driver to play low in the car is that response aberrations and reflections from the mouth just get to insane levels as the xover point goes lower and lower... This is reason numero uno that I always use a fairly wide vertical and horizontal coverage angle, and I always use a car boundary to extend the curve. If I used the deep and short horns that were popular in the 90s, I wouldn't be able to use xover points at 300-500hz. The 'horn honk' would be completely intolerable.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Heavy metal is actually a lot more 'revealing' than a lot of that smooth jazz nonsense that they play at the audio shows. A lot of those 'audiophile' jazz recordings have tons of euphonic distortion and a rolled off treble that masks problems with the tweeters. So, no shame in using metal to test out speakers, that's for sure. I use mono podcasts to evaluate speakers too - that always raises eyebrows. (mono male vocals can reveal problems with crossover phase in a hurry.)


Thank you so much. 

I was at a show one time and they were playing that canned jazz **** (NOT JAZZ) and I was like, "Are you going to listen to this on the way home? You just don't strike me as the (smooth canned ****) type of person."

At shows, you need to be yo'self. Plain and simple.


----------

