# Drum & Percussion 24/96 Hi-Res Demo Tracks - Any Interest???



## bbfoto

Hey Gents (& Ladies),

I've recently been in contact with UK drummer, Charlie Kenney, about the possible creation of some original Hi-Res 24/96 Drum & Percussion Demo Tracks for us DIYMA members. The tracks would be offered in 24-bit/96kHz resolution and in WAV and FLAC format...maybe ALAC as well. They would be made available for Download with a PayPal payment on a yet to be determined website, but most likely from Charlie's website.

*
I'm wanting to create a wide range of Styles and Genres, so if you have any interest, PLEASE feel free to post any special requests or ideas that you have for these tracks here!!!
*

I'm also looking into working with Gavin Harrison from Porcupine Tree on some tracks as well, but he's super busy ATM.

These guys both have home project studios, so they can stay at home to track (record) and mix their drums.  I'm sure that even their practice/jam sessions would be amazing. 

Here's Charlie's web site.

Charlie Kenny Professional Drummer

And Gavin's:

The Official Web Site of the Drummer Gavin Harrison


For reference, here's an abbreviated early email communication with Charlie regarding ideas for the tracks...


_"Charlie,

Thank you for the speedy response. Really mate, it's greatly appreciated and I'm quite stoked that you're interested! Thanks also for the details regarding the Cymbals. 

I can see how YouTube can be a beast in both good and bad ways...takes heaps of dedication to make a go of it if you're trying to make it your sole form of income. But it can also be a huge marketing tool for guys like yourself trying to get your skills and services out to the now global marketplace. I might not have ever discovered you otherwise. 

Regarding the Track Count, I would say that 8 to 10 would be a good number. It could be less, as we would value quality over quantity.

Side note before I forget...it would be great to have a PDF of "liner notes" listing the equipment that you used for each track and an overhead "napkin sketch" of the basic layout of the drum kit & cymbals...geek out stuff, haha. It could seriously be hand sketched on paper. 

As I mentioned in my previous email, the DIYMA site has a diverse group of members, so we would want a decent range of genres and styles represented...

- A Jazz Track with a mix of brushes and sticks with plenty of tom-tom riffs, snare side stick & brushes, ride cymbal sticking, and maybe some Hi-Hat open/closed riffs. Maybe a Tom-Tom "jungle" beat, etc.

- A Funk/Groove track. Just straight out funkiness, with some breaks...Think Stanton Moore/Galactic?

- A Jazz Fusion Track. More "technical" syncopated beats on the Hi-Hat, snare, kick, and ride cymbals...maybe some nice bell sticking here.

- A Kick @ss Rock n' Roll Track. With a SOLID KICK DRUM & TOMS sound!  Classic big rock sound with a solid infectious beat, plenty of sweeping tom riffs, nice crash and splash/China cymbals, some bell/ride cymbal sticking, snare and tom flams, double-flams, and rimshots. Some cowbell of course.  Maybe a little bit John Bonham, a little bit Neil Peart, or whatever you're feeling, etc.

- A Free-Form Solo or two. Something similar to the Sheffield Drum Improvisation tracks that I linked to...A Mix of styles, soft pianissimo playing, to normal, to whatever. A nice exploration of all of the cymbals (a sort of cymbal "melody"). It would be REALLY nice to have some other percussion instruments in the mix...Triangles, Chimes, Bells, Gong, Wood Blocks, Cowbells, Tambourine, Timpani, etc. Any of these could be mixed in with the other tracks as well. We LOVE being able to hear the harmonics and micro-details in these types of instruments...such as the reverb tail of a triangle's or cymbal's ringing/decay, all of the individual "chinqs" of the tambourine, etc

- A Drum & Bass (DnB) Track. A fast, infectious beat, with the incorporation of some tom-toms, tambourine, cowbell, ride cymbal, rim sticking, etc...something to make it more "musical". Reference Jojo Mayer?

- Optional Heavy Metal Track. I'm not really keen on the double-bass craziness, and I don't think you are as well, so? Most of this style doesn't really translate well for me without the music, especially the guitars, to back it up. But if you can make it interesting, go for it. 

Other Notes:

- A clean, realistic, and appropriate Kick Drum sound would be important for each track. 

- We love to hear the detail in the snare drum and snare wires/buzz, side stick, edge-to-center drum rolls. Snares on & off.

- The many different sounds of cymbals, and the detail in the stick hits and the harmonics and decay of cymbals is important. Some felt mallet crescendos?

- The lovely sound of the rack & floor toms. I grew up when the Roto-Toms became popular, haha.

- DYNAMICS are Important! Details in very soft to very loud crescendos. We are not at all into the Heavy Wall Of Sound, Hot/Clipped signal levels. Explore a full range of touch on the kit. Transitions from very soft sticking to moderate are nice. Pianissimo to Mezzo Piano, to Fortissimo! 

- IMAGING/STAGING: It's one of our major goals to reproduce a very wide, even, and focused/defined soundstage in our vehicle from extreme Left to extreme Right. So things like huge, sweeping Left-to-Right Tom fills are nice. For reference in our typical music tracks, Lead Vocals are usually Centered just under the rear-view mirror on the windscreen, with the kick drum just below that and further back. Although there isn't a huge amount of Front-to-Back Depth in a typical drum kit, any added depth effect would be nice. Some of us have been able to reproduce specific tracks where the drum kit, upright double bass, and background vocals appear to be floating a good bit outside of the car a foot or so over the bonnet, spread far left to right. The right ride cymbal and hi-hat, and left crash cymbals can also appear nearly a foot or so outside of the physical bounderies of the car to the left and right. This kind of imaging, placement, and depth would be awesome sauce! FYI, typically, a standard "centered" vocal as produced in nearly all commercial recordings would be heard or "placed" at the forward center of the vehicle, over the forward portion of the dash, just under the rear-view mirror on the windscreen. The "stage" would extend equally to the left and right bounderies of the vehicle...typically the A-pillars. So you need not make any special imaging or stage placement adjustments for these tracks...mix as you normally would for any other project.

PAYMENT - Let me know what would be appropriate compensation for this project? It seems easy on the surface but I know that there's A LOT involved! There is no way for me to guarantee a set amount of orders (unless we go the "Kickstarter" route?) so it should be an amount that you're comfortable with that covers your basic costs and time. I know that I could do ~$500 USD upfront, but any more than that and I'd have to see if I could work out something with the other forum members. After the upfront fee, I was thinking that you would then charge a "per track" or "per album" Download Fee for each member that orders. Let me know what payment system works for you and the $ amounts. You might think about opening this up to a wider audience as well...

Just a thought, but maybe at the same time you would Video the sessions...perhaps you could recoup addition income from the project by producing a DVD that could be offered to a wider audience? However, I don't have any experience on how successful DVD projects like this would be these days, since YouTube seems "good enough" for most. So maybe make the videos available on YouTube, but also provide a Link to Purchase the individual tracks for various prices depending on the format & resolution, e.g. 16/44 MP3 & AAC, and then Hi-Res 24/96 in WAV & FLAC for a bit more $. Not sure what the best hosting site would be...your own website or iTunes/Bandcamp/SoundCloud, etc?

You should most definitely post the availability of these Hi-Res track downloads on the Head-Fi.org - Headphone forums and reviews for audiophiles website. This is a HUGE online forum of Audiophile Headphone enthusiasts who spend literally thousands of dollars annually on equipment and for Hi-Res Music Downloads from websites such as Homepage | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads ! The HDtracks site is blowing up! The owner of the site is David Chesky, a musician, recording engineer, and founder of Chesky Recordings.

I'm going to get some thoughts from the other members of the DIYMA Forum to see if they have any input on what they'd like and get back to you.

Sorry for the Giant Novel of an email, but I guess the details are important! 

Thanks again! Get back to me at your convenience.

Cheers,

Billy B.

-----------------"

_.


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## bbfoto

And here is one of Charlie Kenny's email replies:

_From: Charlie Kenny <[email protected]>
To: Billy B. <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: New message via your website, from [email protected] / Inquiry about Hi-Res Drum Demo Tracks for Car Audio/Audiophiles

Hi Billy,

I'm away from home today at a studio in cheshire. I've had a quick browse through the email and am 100% up for working with you mate. I'll have to have a really in depth read through tonight and get back to you. So am I right in thinking that once done it would be a paid downloadable project made available to anyone in the group? Also when you say a handful of tracks what are we talking? 5/10/20?  lets get some numbers ironed out re: tracks needed and payment e.t.c and I can start as early as teusday.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my online stuff mate. Youtube is a strange beast in that you have the guys who get millions and millions of views and make it a business in itself (but have had to slave to get the traffic) and then guys like me who don't have the time to push the youtube side. I finally seem to be getting a few more views though which is great. It's through the help of guys like you as well so thanks mate. The crash on the left in the armory vid is a signature traditional 18". It's a lovely crash which I will keep forever however since then the masters dark series has been released and the crashes in that series are incredible. I could recommend a cymbal more highly.

Anyway let me know how many tracks you need and I'll sit down tonight and put a package together for you and we can go from there. Thanks for getting in touch Billy.

Cheers,

Charlie

Sent from my iPhone"_

.


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## bbfoto

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## BowDown

I would be game assuming the end result is worth it.


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## Offroader5

I'm intrigued. Hell, people pay $20-$60 & more for albums off HD Tracks for high res. stuff.


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## Lycancatt

sounds like a nice project to me. for those of us in the know, it'd be great to know the mics used and the signal chain, just because that'd be geeky cool.


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## bbfoto

Cool. Thanks for the response guys.

Yeah, I will have him list the full signal chain. If you watch the YouTube video linked below, near the end around 4:48 it lists all the mics, mixing desk, mic pre's, EQ's, DAW, etc. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky4DfD1jlwI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I've used the Audient ASP880 mic pre's and ADC's (same as in their desk/board) with a few CAD E100S (Glyn Johns & ORTF O/H's & room/ambience), CAD M179 (Rack & Floor Toms), Shure SM81 (Hi-Hat), and modded SM57 (snare) and they are impressive pre's and ADC's.


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## bbfoto

Should have an update soon.

Let me know if you guys/gals/trannys have any specific suggestions or desires for the content of these tracks.


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## bbfoto

Bumpitty


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## SoundQ SVT

bbfoto said:


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.-- .... -.-- / .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. / -.-- --- ..- / - -.-- .--. . / -.-. --.-


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## bbfoto

SoundQ SVT said:


> .-- .... -.-- / .-- --- ..- .-.. -.. / -.-- --- ..- / - -.-- .--. . / -.-. --.-
> 
> "Why would you type CQ"


Just curious to see if anybody out there was listening.  Found one at least, thanks! 


--... -....


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## bbfoto

Should be finalizing this later this evening. Last chance if you guys have any requests for the content of these tracks.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Damn I missed this. I'd love something more metal oriented. Tons of drum tracks out there, very few high quality metal drum solos that aren't ripped from a live show somewhere.


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## bbfoto

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Damn I missed this. I'd love something more metal oriented. Tons of drum tracks out there, very few high quality metal drum solos that aren't ripped from a live show somewhere.


Yeah. That's true. Its hard to find really good HQ metal tracks. I'll see what he can do, but his main kit isn't metal-oriented and that's not really his forte. I'll see if Gavin can put together a few as well when he has more time, and also look into other metal drummers as well. Not being prejudice, but IME, unfortunately most metal drummers don't have good studio equipment and/or know how to use it properly to get REALLY good sound.  There are exceptions, of course, but the experienced guys usually want the most compensation as well, or they would just rather sleep in.  Maybe a few free bottles of JACK would do the trick, tho'! 

Tracking drums (recording them) has A LOT to do with the drummer's experience and control. While playing, an experienced studio drummer can precisely control the level or volume of each strike on a particular drum or cymbal, independently with each limb, to control the overall "mix" of the drums. There is a finite amount of dynamic range that modern microphones, mic preamps, and ADC's can capture before you have to reach for the compressor, limiter, and gate, which ends up crunching or squashing the signal, though at least some small amount of EQ and compression is usually required when tracking or mixing drums.

You'll notice that most professional studio drum kit setups will have the drum kit and cymbals set up at a lower, more even level in height from left to right. This is so that the Overhead Stereo Mic Pair can capture a very balanced amplitude and overall "picture" of the entire kit, without a singular drum or cymbal jumping out at you or coming into the mix too hot.

The Overhead Mic's are what really capture an overall NATURAL representation of the entire kit, and provide the only NATURAL Stereo L-to-R image and add some ambience to the kit. They are THE MOST IMPORTANT to get setup right. Any problems captured here will be very difficult to fix later because all of the individual sounds are combined and mixed together...i.e., it's hard to separate the strawberries in a milkshake from the milk and ice cream once they've been put through the blender!

After the O/H's are captured well, capturing a good individually mic'd snare drum & kick drum sound are the most important. Sometimes "room mic's" will be setup at further distances to mix in some overall ambience as well. The individually close-mic'd drums, Hi-hats (and sometimes other cymbals) are usually used sparingly in the mix to "bump up" a particular drum or cymbal in the mix, or to add more low end or a certain tonal quality. All the while you have to deal with serious phase interaction between all of these mics when you combine them in the mix. Good Times...no so much!

Most metal & hard rock drummers have A LOT of cymbals (and rack & floor toms) placed at many different height levels, just so they have clear, hard-hitting stick access to everything (and it looks cool, too). You can only reach so far to the left & right, so like skyscrapers, you build your drum kit UP. The drummer will usually only like to have their drum kit set up that ONE way, because they are "unique" and "That's the ONLY way to get my killer sound, man!"

This creates a big problem for the tracking engineer, and rather than upset the delicate ego of the drummer or create friction, the engineer will just "roll with it" and opt to "fix it in post". If the drummer is upset or not completely relaxed and comfortable, you're going to end up with a ****ty, unusable take no matter how good your mic'ing and setup are, so it's best to capture a good _performance_ over anything else. You want your musicians to be comfortable and relaxed. So again, you make the sacrifice and end up with a brick-wall'd, compressed-to-hell drum sound.  The smart engineer might add an aux send of every mic channel to a separate set of mic preamps to be recorded at a -10dB to-15dB lower level as a backup for the main channels if they are overdriven. But good mic pre's are big $$$ and extras are not always available. Plus, that's a lot of extra PITA time and money involved to merge those tracks!

In addition, a good session drummer will often have a completely different set of cymbals for a studio session as opposed to a live show. The type of Drum Heads might change as well, plus different tuning, and the level of damping will increase to kill some of the resonant ringing or long sustain/decay. Just like we'd use CLD, a drummer or drum tech might use a small piece of Gaffer tape, or gaffer tape with toilet tissue under it, or even his/her wallet set on the drum heads to muffle the excessive resonance or sustain.

Normally this resonance sounds good in real life, but when all of the "ringing" from the different drums combine, some microphones pick it up as "mush" and the individual drums can lose their punchiness and detail in the recording. They have a product called Moon Gel now that you stick on the drum heads that is made for this purpose...again, it's like putting a small square of CLD on a larger sheet metal panel.

Moving forward, It's been years since I've talked to him, but I kind of know Scott Ian (Anthrax) and some of the boys from Incubus, so maybe I should check-in and see if they'd be willing to F'around to lay down some tracks. I'm sure that they've updated their home project studios.

Will keep you all posted. Thanks!


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## rxonmymind

I'd be game. After listening to an excellent sq CD with drums I'm hooked. You owe it to yourself to get this cd as every song on there the main attraction for me is the drums. Vocals are spot on to. They sound like the beach boys. 
So if it's anything close to this I'll be in. Tell me if you can reproduce this quality of kicks & I'd be impressed.

My earlier review taken from the inside jacket out the CD cover..
It reads in part 
" this compact disc remarkable performance is the result of a unique combination of digital with laser optics......Because limiting and compression WERE NOT used......vocals on this album were recorded using Neumann U-47 microphone...... instruments heard on this album are the real thing - not synthesized"


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## rxonmymind

Listen to slipknots drum solo. Insane. Sounds like a machine gun. But heck YA! IF you could get some "metal rock" drums that don't sound like their a million miles away that would be great! Love to really hear their talent. It's seems such a waste that many of Metallica songs the drums are "washed" out. That goes for many bands actually. You don't get to that level of performance being a amateur so I'd love to hear THEM. Guitars, violin, cello,sax, etc I have plenty of.


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## bbfoto

rxonmymind said:


> I'd be game. After listening to an excellent sq CD with drums I'm hooked. You owe it to yourself to get this cd as every song on there the main attraction for me is the drums. Vocals are spot on to. They sound like the beach boys.
> So if it's anything close to this I'll be in. Tell me if you can reproduce this quality of kicks & I'd be impressed.
> 
> My earlier review taken from the inside jacket out the CD cover..
> It reads in part
> " this compact disc remarkable performance is the result of a unique combination of digital with laser optics......Because limiting and compression WERE NOT used......vocals on this album were recorded using Neumann U-47 microphone...... instruments heard on this album are the real thing - not synthesized"


Yup, I agree, that is a great recording. I've had it for a number of years now and had forgotten about it, but your post in the other thread reminded me. Telarc doesn't release crap recordings, I have quite a few. Good chit, and that is what I'm going for with this project. Finger's crossed.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

rxonmymind said:


> Listen to slipknots drum solo. Insane. Sounds like a machine gun. But heck YA! IF you could get some "metal rock" drums that don't sound like their a million miles away that would be great! Love to really hear their talent. It's seems such a waste that many of Metallica songs the drums are "washed" out. That goes for many bands actually. You don't get to that level of performance being a amateur so I'd love to hear THEM. Guitars, violin, cello,sax, etc I have plenty of.


Yep, I've seen Joey solo in person twice on the same kit in that video. Badass. Chris Adler is also a monster on drums. And his sound is much less compressed on vinyl. 

Thanks bbfoto, I figured it wasn't his main forte per say, but it's a wish list thing of mine. (Along with all of my favorite metal albums being remastered to be far more dynamic, like Slayers South Of Heaven is).


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## bbfoto

I hear ya!

_Slayer's South of Heaven _- That's one of my favorites right there.


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## bbfoto

UPDATE!

So Charlie is set to start recording these Drum & Percussion Tracks in about 2 weeks when he is done with his other studio commitments.

For the ultimate in Sound Quality, we've decided to have the drums tracked at his Dad's studio which is a full-blown commercial studio that has top-end mixing boards, monitors, microphones, mic pre's, ADC/DACs, and other top-notch outboard gear + a great engineer.  Top Quality, REAL-sounding Drums & Percussion is the goal, with excellent dynamics, tonality, and staging, with the absolute minimal use of any EQ, Compression, or Limiting.

Unfortunately, tracking the drums in a "real" studio rather than Charlie's home project studio will be a bit more expensive, so we're going to compromise and start with 3-4 slightly longer tracks instead of 8-10 right off the bat. One of the tracks will be a longer "Medley" of styles with transitions between them. He is down to do a short metal-inspired track for you metal-heads as well. 

All of the equipment used to make these recordings will be listed in PDF Liner Notes...each individual drum, cymbal, percussion instrument, microphone, and all electronic equipment in the signal chain, along with an overhead-view diagram of the placement of the drums and/or "stage map".

Track Lineup:

- Killer Rock n' Roll Beat and Free-Form Rock Solo.

- Jazz Track with more delicate and intricate drum & cymbal sticking and brushes, snare and tom-tom fills, solo, etc.

- Heavy Metal with Solo (fast, but not quite Speed Metal).

- Drum & Percussion Medley: DnB, Fusion, Funk/Groove, Cymbal Medley, Snare Drum rolls/riffs, Tom-Tom riffs, including a mixed variety of percussion instruments.


We're still working out what the download pricing will be in order to be reasonable but still cover the majority of the costs, but you would be able to download the Full-Resolution 24/96 WAV files and then you can convert it to any file format that you desire and/or burn it to a CD, etc. His typical rate for producing a drum track in the "real studio" for a commercial song release is a minimum of £150 per track...I'll let you convert that to USD! However, he is really keen on this project and is willing to do it at a substantial discount.

Completion of the project should be early to mid-April.

I'll keep you all posted on the progress and further details on pricing and availability. We'll most likely post up some short 20 second teasers _a la_ Amazon-style so you can hear a bit of the content and quality of the tracks before deciding to purchase.

Thanks for your interest!

Billy B.


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## bbfoto

Bump-a-thon. See above.


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## bbfoto

Da Bump


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## danno14

Nice project....tagging along, and thanks for the effort


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## bbfoto

Thanks Amigo! More to come soon.


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## m3gunner

Any updates on this project?


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## jgriesinger

I realize this thread is old, and yes I am just a lurker, but would love to see something like this happen. One of my very good friends is a death metal drummer, but also does session drumming for others in the studio. All styles. He may be able to help if there is enough interest in this project.

youtube(dot)com/watch?v=NV5tXLbSUBg

sorry I cannot post links 

J


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## vivmike

I want this too.


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## truckguy

I'm in!


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## Audiophool

I'm interested too!


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## jgriesinger

I have sent a message to get the ball rolling. Gathering information. 

I have been given permission to share a couple of sample tracks for anyone that might be interested. These are both metal tracks and in .WAV format. Lots of great drumming and the guitar work is nothing to sneeze at either 

"The Demise" (instrumental short 2:31) .wav 26MB

The Demise

"Constricted" (8:37) .wav 87MB

Constricted










J


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## bbfoto

jgriesinger said:


> I have sent a message to get the ball rolling. Gathering information.
> 
> I have been given permission to share a couple of sample tracks for anyone that might be interested. These are both metal tracks and in .WAV format. Lots of great drumming and the guitar work is nothing to sneeze at either
> 
> "The Demise" (instrumental short 2:31) .wav 26MB
> 
> The Demise
> 
> "Constricted" (8:37) .wav 87MB
> 
> Constricted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J


Thanks for the posts, links, and photo! [email protected], I haven't seen a set of Roto-Toms being used in quite a while, LOL. Nice.

Sorry everyone...life and work has just got really busy for me and I haven't followed through with this.  I plan to get this project going again after the Holidays and beginning of the New Year.

But everyone feel free to contribute whatever you can in the meantime!


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## trumpet

jgriesinger said:


> I have sent a message to get the ball rolling. Gathering information.
> 
> I have been given permission to share a couple of sample tracks for anyone that might be interested. These are both metal tracks and in .WAV format. Lots of great drumming and the guitar work is nothing to sneeze at either
> 
> J


Thanks for this.


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## benny z

sub'd


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## jgriesinger

trumpet said:


> Thanks for this.


YW  I was told the pic is of the kit mic'd for the recording of those songs


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## bbfoto

jgriesinger said:


> YW  I was told the pic is of the kit mic'd for the recording of those songs


Cool.

I'm just going to restate my goals for these tracks.

I started this thread on a quest of obtaining very High-Quality drum kit only and/or percussion instrument recordings that have been produced with very High-Quality Microphones, Mic Pres and minimal signal chain, with minimal EQ/Limiting/Compression/Gating, Processing, etc.

Ideally this would be done with a minimum amount of microphones, preferably a stereo Over-Head pair to provide excellent L/R imaging and an overall "view" or "capture" of the instrument. Then maybe just a mic on the snare and the kick drum, and possibly a "room" mic. 

I am a drummer and was in search of raw, "you are there"-sounding drum recordings.

Most, well nearly all, popular commercial drum recordings are extremely processed and have been heavily "tweaked" with EQ, Compression, Limiting and more after having been tracked (or even during tracking). This is especially true in most modern rock, metal, and electronic music.

Sometimes a wee bit of this processing is necessary to reduce clipping and/or to make the drums & cymbals sound "how they sounded live" due to the response and character of the particular microphones that are used.

For instance a lot of SDC pencil microphones that are typically used for Drum Overheads, Cymbals, Hi-Hats, and Snare drums have a rising high-end response or bump similar to most tweeters that we typically use, even the better Scan-Speak models.

On the other hand, expensive, high-quality Ribbon Microphones are usually on the "Dark & Rich" side, and need a good boost in the upper/high frequencies to bring out the detail and air. However, most good ribbon microphones respond extremely well to adding HF EQ, whereas small diaphragm condenser mics or large diaphragm condenser mics may get "weird" when this is done and/or add a lot of background hiss or noise.

Anyway...again, my goal is to obtain drum recordings that sound "like the real drum kit and cymbals" that were being played, as if you were there "in the room" or at the small venue with the drummer.

Drums "breath", and make all kinds of other "noises", and also produce interactive resonations with each other and the instruments around them, which is heard in a very distinct 3D spatial soundfield. I feel that A LOT of drum recordings and engineers try to "fix" and remove all of this information which IMO causes the drums and cymbals to not sound "real". I think a lot is lost when every drum and/or cymbal is "close-mic'd" unless the engineer is really skilled at tracking and mixing drums. Sure, they will still sound like real drums and cymbals and have impact, etc, but they just don't sound like "you are there". Just my opinion and input.


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## trumpet

Check out the playlist for "How to Record Heavy Drums" on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gcr3c107OM&list=PLXmwQZcfhFf_bCQygGrNhzABD7CvD_JlS


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## bbfoto

trumpet said:


> Check out the playlist for "How to Record Heavy Drums" on Youtube.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gcr3c107OM&list=PLXmwQZcfhFf_bCQygGrNhzABD7CvD_JlS


Great video series. I had forgotten about these so thanks for posting! There is a lot of truth to what he is saying and I agree with most of it.

There are also a few techniques or ideas that I don't completely agree with, but Glenn is obviously skewed towards achieving a Heavy Metal sound, and yeah, the title _is_ "How To Record Heavy Drums", so...there's that.  Some elements of the kit are obviously heavily processed to achieve that Heavy Metal sound, particularly the kick drum. There is no right or wrong way...it's all about the engineer's and the artist's preferences and the sound that they want to portray.

I'm more interested in capturing the Natural or real sound of the drums and cymbals as if you are there in the room listening to the performance. I realize that this maybe boring or uninteresting to some and that's okay.

I'm basically going to do a Copy & Paste from another thread and post it here:

So a top Drum Demo Track in the Jazz genre is the "Drum Boogie" track from the Live (in a jazz club) recording on the "Live Is Life" CD or Vinyl by Arne Domnérus & Lars Erstrand. 

The track is dominated by a fairly long jazz drum solo at the beginning and then again at the end. It's considered one of the best live drum recordings in existence. The entire album is a hallmark live recording for detail, dynamics, and realism, along with perfectly capturing the ambience of the room.

If your system is setup and tuned properly, you will feel as if you are "in the room", with imaging cues coming from All Around you (even from directly behind you) thanks to the guests at the club and just the "space" of the room. It's exceptional. (However there are more ambient room cues on the other tracks on the album).

Another great Jazz track with a very well recorded Sax with a Drum Solo is the "Arapaho" track from the Clifford Jordan's Quartet "Live at Ethell's" CD on the Mapleshade label, which are basically Live to 2-track recordings with an extremely minimal signal chain and little if any processing.

You can find a snippet of the "Drum Boogie" and "Arapaho" tracks in both FLAC or ALAC (Apple Lossless) here:

http://1drv.ms/1hrKDN7

http://1drv.ms/1Q9hlPq


Track: #11 "Drum Boogie"'
Artists: Arne Domnérus with Lars Erstrand and friends
Album: "Live is Life" (Proprius UltraHD 32-Bit Mastering Limited Edition...only 2000 pressings).
Label: © 1995 Proprius Music/Naxos Int'l.
Catalog #: PRUHD 914 LE
UPC: PRUHD914
Available @ ElusiveDisc.com


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## trumpet

Let me know your thoughts on this:


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## bbfoto

^The DRUMATRON software seems to be a really powerful program and does seem to mostly eliminate the problem of each drum or cymbal bleeding into the other mics. I obviously haven't tried it yet myself, but I believe it would probably reduce or strip away a bit of the _natural_ harmonics and dynamics of the drums and/or cymbals, especially in the tail end of the instrument's decay. At least that's partly what think I can hear in the demo, but it's impossible to judge over YouTube's compressed audio.

I believe DRUMATRON is geared more towards the rock and metal segments of the market, which is obviously quite large, and where it should work well to shape the sound of the drums to what an artist/engineer/producer would want. I think that it's more for being able to tweak and change each individual drum to your liking, not to achieve the best possible realistic and natural sound of each drum or cymbal, or the kit as a whole.

It also seems to be a bit of a quick band-aid for good mic placement and inexperienced engineering and tracking. Not that good engineers would not or will not make use of this, but a good tracking engineer can achieve excellent results with the appropriate mics, mic placement, and associated gear. I'll also say, as Glenn has also mentioned, that the experience of the drummer is an important aspect. Good drummers can individually control each strike with each limb to control the overall balance of the snare, hi-hat, toms, kick drum, cymbals, etc, and are often asked to do this by the tracking engineer.

There are also 1,001 different ways to approach recording the drums...thousands of different microphones, an infinite number of mic placements, thousands of different mic preamps, compressors, limiters, gates, and EQs that each have a huge range of different settings.

Again, I don't think that the DRUMATRON program is geared towards users that are trying to achieve a really natural and realistic "capture" of a drum kit. But I'm sure that it can be used to make the drums sound larger than life in a recording and it does seem to offer tools that have never been available before.

Just think about this...There are and have been many, many live concerts where the live drums sound absolutely amazing. It would be impossible for a FOH engineer to use a program like this in a live setting, but they can and do have a lot of processing tools available to them. So with that said, some studio albums that are recorded with all of this extra processing have a good chance of sounding completely different when you hear the same songs at a concert. Not that this would be a bad thing, just different. In a live setting you also have to consider the latency of each processor you add to the chain, as those will combine to create a time delay from the actual live sound that the musicians are playing and what they hear through their monitors and/or the venue sound system.

The one thing that I have to say I don't care for in most of these types of recordings is the kick drum "click" or "slap" of the beater on the drum head that is way over-emphasized. I know that it is added to make each very fast kick drum hit stand out distinctly, but IMO you might as well have your bass drum pedal hooked up to a plastic trash can lid.  It doesn't sound like a real kick drum at all. 

All of this is just my opinion and I'm not even close to being a recording engineer, but I have played drums and percussion since I was 14 and that was quite a few years ago now.


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## trumpet

I had transferred those two demo tracks, Constricted and Demise, to my phone and I promptly forgot about them. I was driving with my phone shuffling my full music collection and Constricted started playing. There was a minute when I was trying to remember if this is a band whose album I'd downloaded and didn't yet give a thorough listen, because it's exactly the style of music I want to hear most days. If all of my heavy albums sounded this good I'd be very happy.


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## bbfoto

A few for the Hard Rock/Metal Heads here....Nick Menza, formerly of Megadeath. I have a few of the SoulTone cymbals and love 'em.


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## bbfoto

SNARE DRUM / MICROPHONE TEST TRACK

Alright, gentlemen. I’ve uploaded a quick & dirty 24/96 sample recording of one of my Snare Drums. The link is below. It is a 161mb file because it is a Lossless WAV stereo track at 24/96. I will include a 16/48 320kbps CBR MP3 as well, which is just under 17mb, but I thought that you might like to have the full resolution. 

There is absolutely no EQ, Limiting, Compression, or any other processing applied to the recording or track. It is raw from the Mics straight into Audacity. FYI, if you set your “Balance” control to full Left you will hear the Top Microphone only, and full Right will be the Bottom Mic only. That way you can hear the difference in response between the top and bottom heads, and the bottom head also has the snare wires. Both mics are placed the same on the top and bottom.

I apologize up front for all of the talking, but I just wanted to provide some background info and explain what I was doing and why for the demonstration. This isn’t meant to be a “killer drum track”, it is purely to test the accuracy and Sound Quality of the microphones and the recording chain.

Also, I had just swapped out the Drum Heads before this test for some heads that are typically used on concert snare drums, and they ended up being very “dead” in regards to the stick rebound and feedback (I thought it would be the opposite!), so I was struggling a bit with my stick control/accuracy.

It provided a very different feel and stick feedback from what I am used to, and I haven’t been practicing much at all lately, and of course didn’t do any warm up because I was in a rush to get this up, so this is a rough track to say the least, LOL. :blush: I just wanted to get this up as a SQ reference so I might get some feedback from you all. 


*WARNING !!! Reduce the Volume when I say that I’m going to strike the drum!!!*

The drum is fairly close-mic’d (I did this to minimize the ambient room noise), so unfortunately My Voice will be Very Soft compared to the Drum Strikes! But I didn't want to use a separate dialog mic because I wanted you to hear the effects of my voice on the drum's resonance. Also the bottom mic is set to Reverse Polarity to capture the drum accurately, and the phase cancellation from my speaking position also slightly reduces the level of my voice. *The Drum Strikes will be LOUD!* I don't want this to POP Claydo's (or anyone's) Tweeters, LOL!!!  


----- BACKGROUND INFO -----


SNARE DRUM & HEADS:

Pork Pie 5.5" x 14" Rosewood/Zebrawood Snare Drum (Maple shell). Top/Batter Head is a Remo Diplomat Renaissance, and the Bottom/Snare Side Head is a Remo Diplomat. Also, in the recording I say that the Snare Drum is 6.5”x14”, when in fact it is a 5.5”x14”drum. Brain Fart!


MICROPHONES: 

Two CAD Equitek E100S. The LEFT channel is the Top mic, and the RIGHT channel is the Bottom mic. You can combine/split/mix these in Audacity or your DAW if you like.


MICROPHONE PLACEMENT: 

There is one microphone placed on each Top & Bottom Head at the outer edge or hoop of the drum and at a ~45° angle to the surface of each Head, aimed towards the center of the drum. The on-axis center point of each mic is aimed about 3” in from the edge of the hoop/rim, with each capsule about 3.5” above each head. The Bottom Microphone is set to REVERSE PHASE . Both mics are placed at the 12 O’Clock position on the drum, so in several instances you can hear when my sticks change position on the surface of the drum.


USB AUDIO RECORDING INTERFACE/MIC PREAMPS: 

Audient iD22 with built-in DiscretePRO Preamps.


MIC CABLES: 

20ft Mogami Neglex 2549 cable with Neutrik NC3FXX XLR connectors.


*LINK TO DOWNLOAD: * 

*http://1drv.ms/1SjuJSc*


***** REMEMBER to LOWER the VOLUME when I say that I will be Striking the Drum !!! *****


Please give me any feedback that you can, whether good or bad. 

Thanks!

.


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## bbfoto

I'm going to order a few of these Lewitt Audio mics and give them a try. Going for a pair of LCT 550 for Drum OverHeads and the DTP 640 REX kick drum mic. I might just go for the full Lewitt DTP Beat Kit Pro 7.

Anyway, check out some SOUND BITES in the videos here (make sure to watch/listen in HD):

Now THIS sounds like a kick drum!...































Also check out the Lewitt DGT 650 USB Portable Microphone/Audio Interface! 






It's a Stereo USB Microphone that will connect directly to an iPad/iPhone with or without a small breakout box. The iPad/iPhone acts as the recording device with the included recording app.

Other videos about the LCT 550 mics....


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## Niick

Im extermely intersted, whats the latest? I have been recording some drums myself lately, but Im no pro. I would love to have some tracks recorded by someone other than myself. Only downside is not having been present when the tracks were made. I like having that reference.

edit: Oh, cool, ok, I see there is a link to a download.....I'll check that out....


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## bbfoto

Niick said:


> Im extermely intersted, whats the latest? I have been recording some drums myself lately, but Im no pro. I would love to have some tracks recorded by someone other than myself. Only downside is not having been present when the tracks were made. I like having that reference.
> 
> edit: Oh, cool, ok, I see there is a link to a download.....I'll check that out....


Nick, the track that I uploaded pretty much sucks. :/ I've made some others with proper gain that I need to upload.

I'm no pro either. I used to be halfway decent back in the day, but I'm way out of practice now. I'm just getting back into it, but have no real time to devote to it unfortunately. I too just wanted to make some "reference tracks" for demo and tuning in my vehicles, since I am present when recording them.


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## Niick

bbfoto said:


> Nick, the track that I uploaded pretty much sucks. :/ I've made some others with proper gain that I need to upload.
> 
> I'm no pro either. I used to be halfway decent back in the day, but I'm way out of practice now. I'm just getting back into it, but have no real time to devote to it unfortunately. I too just wanted to make some "reference tracks" for demo and tuning in my vehicles, since I am present when recording them.


thats really awesome though man, I think somebody had a mention of it in an earlier post. The install bay where I work is quite large, and that where I've been recording, after hours. A friend/client of ours who is the musician kind enough to lend his time, instruments, and talents to my quest of audio reproduction perfection (yeah right!! That's a laugh huh?! Perfection, I f**king wish!!  ) has mentioned on more than one occasion that his drums sound really good in here, as a result (we suppose) of it being such a large space. 

The last time I recorded I did a close mic-ing of each individual drum, and, I just don't think it's as good as my earlier recordings with a simple stereo pair of microphones. 

Then again, I don't really know what I'm doing either! LOL


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## bertholomey

I'm very interested- I'll have to go back and read everything though


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## Niick

In my last (and next) recording project we used a Ludwig "Black Beauty"


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## bbfoto

Niick said:


> thats really awesome though man, I think somebody had a mention of it in an earlier post. The install bay where I work is quite large, and that where I've been recording, after hours. A friend/client of ours who is the musician kind enough to lend his time, instruments, and talents to my quest of audio reproduction perfection (yeah right!! That's a laugh huh?! Perfection, I f**king wish!!  ) has mentioned on more than one occasion that his drums sound really good in here, as a result (we suppose) of it being such a large space.
> 
> The last time I recorded I did a close mic-ing of each individual drum, and, I just don't think it's as good as my earlier recordings with a simple stereo pair of microphones.
> 
> Then again, I don't really know what I'm doing either! LOL


Cool. I bet the install bay is a great "room" to record in! That is a very important aspect to good recordings of any instrument. The room needs to be large enough to provide a natural echo or reverb but you don't want too much either. A LOT of large room recording studios are designed with a specific amount of echo and a specific decay time or "reverb tail" for that echo.

And you gotta love the classic Black Beauty snare. There are probably more BB's in the world than any other single snare drum.

A good Overhead Stereo Pair of mics is usually the basis for a great drum kit recording. These give you an overall "snapshot" of the drum kit and moreso what it sounds like "in the room". They also are usually the main microphones used to capture the sounds of the cymbals, while also providing the natural L/R stereo image and placement for each drum and cymbal in the soundstage. The close mics are used to add a bit of body and detail, and are mixed in proportionally to balance the overall sound, or to emphasize a particular drum or "sound", i.e. a "fat" snare drum, etc.

Listen to the samples in the "Leftover Studios" videos that I posted previously. Most of them provide a comparison of the sound with just the close mics, and then when the close mics are combined with the Overhead Stereo Pair. The combination really adds to the fullness and realism. It's incredibly important when tracking (recording) to check the phase interaction between all of the different mics when they are combined or mixed together. Mic placement and the distance between each mic and each drum are important here. Most engineers concentrate on making sure that the snare and the kick drum are captured without any phase issues between the different mics.


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## Niick

bbfoto said:


> Cool. I bet the install bay is a great "room" to record in! That is a very important aspect to good recordings of any instrument. The room needs to be large enough to provide a natural echo or reverb but you don't want too much either. A LOT of large room recording studios are designed with a specific "amount of echo" and a specific decay time for that echo.
> 
> And you gotta love the classic Black Beauty snare. There are probably more BB's in the world than any other single snare drum.
> 
> A good Overhead Stereo Pair of mics is usually the basis for a great drum kit recording. These give you an overall "snapshot" of the drum kit and moreso what it sounds like "in the room". They also provide the natural L/R stereo image and placement for each drum and cymbal. The close mics are used to add a bit of body and detail, and mixed in proportionally to balance the overall sound or to emphasize the snare drum, etc.
> 
> Listen to the samples in the "Leftover Studios" videos that I posted previously. Most of them provide a comparison of the sound with just the close mics, and then when combined with the Overhead Stereo Pair. The combination really adds to the fullness and realism. It's incredibly important when tracking (recording) to check the phase interaction between all of the different mics when they are combined or mixed together. Mic placement and the distance between each mic and each drum are important here. Most engineers concentrate on making sure that the snare and the kick drum are captured without any phase issues between the different mics.


regarding the phase of each mic. I have, so far, been aligning the tracks (individual mics) after capture to get them all in phase with each other. Is there a way (without a digital console/channel delay) to do this during the actual recording? For example, can each individual track in the DAW be delayed relative to the others? I've never actually tried this. 

I've been using Presonus Studio One 2 artist.

Edit: it would make total sense that this could easily be done in the DAW. After all, this is EXACTLY how the analysis system I use at work for troubleshooting/system tuning works. I can enter in any amount of delay I want separately on all 8 channels of input in one sample increments.


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## bbfoto

Niick said:


> regarding the phase of each mic. I have, so far, been aligning the tracks (individual mics) after capture to get them all in phase with each other. Is there a way (without a digital console/channel delay) to do this during the actual recording? For example, can each individual track in the DAW be delayed relative to the others? I've never actually tried this.
> 
> I've been using Presonus Studio One 2 artist.
> 
> Edit: it would make total sense that this could easily be done in the DAW. After all, this is EXACTLY how the analysis system I use at work for troubleshooting/system tuning works. I can enter in any amount of delay I want separately on all 8 channels of input in one sample increments.


You control phase with careful mic placement. But, yes you can somewhat adjust the delay for each track (mic) using your DAW. The problem with this is when, for instance, your Hi-Hat mic is also picking up a good bit of the snare drum, etc. This is referred to as "mic bleed". Now, if you delay the Hi-Hat track, then the phase of the snare drum that is also in this track will be weird when combined with the Overheads or the close-mic'd snare track.

Just like in car audio with attention to good speaker placement and PLD's, sometimes there is no substitute for good mic placement. We're just placing the mics properly instead of the speakers in our vehicles.

There is some newly released software just for purpose that is discussed in one of the previously posted videos by Glenn at SpectreSoundStudios.


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## Niick

Aha....I see. Thanks for all the info! I can't wait until I'm able to try again and make another recording. I need to dedicate more time to it as well. Each time I've done it it's been after hours, and we've only had a couple of hours to set up, do a few practice/set up runs, and go for it. 

Which TOTALLY makes sense why my first attempt was more successful, as I was using a MUCH simpler microphone setup.


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## Niick

So, obviously then, mic placement to control the phase of two mics relative to each other is critical on individual drums that share a freq. range. Not, for example, the ride cymbal and the floor tom. Is that correct? It would be like....floor tom/rack tom. These would need to be in phase with each other, which could be controlled by carefully adjusting the distance of the mic relative to the drum skin. 

Is that even remotely on target?


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