# 2012 Honda Fit: SQ 2-seater



## oabeieo

Just got my Honda Fit , gonna do it up real purdy like and have some fun. 

System will be:

Alpine double din with optical out (X008)

2 minidsp 2x4HDs optical input
2 Stevins Audio HLCDS 
2 Stevins audio 8"
2 Beyma 10g40s (or Stevins audio 10s have to wait till there available to check its parameters)

1 Focal FPS 4160 
2 focal FPS 3200
1 JLHD 1200/1 (eventually will be another focal amp)

1 18" B&C subwoofer 

Its a 2012 , has 6700 miles, super clean and fresh for a sick build. 
Been wanting one for a while when looking for the ultimate SQ car layout.

My goals are for it to image in both front seats. 

I'm going to re-work the dash and cut the horns into the upper firewall right under the windshield. I'm also going to build a custom a pillar that allows 8" midrange to be mounted in the dash. The location for the 8" had a PLD just over 6". Where The horns will be I measure a PLD at just 4". 

I'm going to do a subtub in the spare tire well for the 18" sub. And make it so I can run it either sealed/ported/IB. I'm going to make a port/vent that I can put a plug into, and make a plug on bottom of car that can be opened to vent out to atmosphere when I want to go IB. 

The 10s will be in the footwells cut into the floor/firewall area and fiberglass enclosure that runs down the underside of the car and be sealed and have about/at least 1cu ft of airspace each 

The amps will be mounted on a custom anorak that follows the back seat to its top, and will be floating so that I still have a trunk that is useable. 

I am installing a high output internally regulated alternator. (270A)
There will also be a second battery on a custom bracket in the engine bay. 

Feel free to chat, definitely intrested in any ideas for the build. 

The bucket, 

[img=http://s32.postimg.org/v0n7fhqvl/image.jpg]

[img=http://s32.postimg.org/qax9qvzv5/image.jpg]


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## jamesjones

Awesome. Can't wait to see it.


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## oabeieo

Just got the hook up on sound deadning showdown supplies.
Getting CLD , MLV, closed cell foam, and some thick padding throughout. 

Currently on pause until I can get a HO alternator. 

Most the gear has arrived , waiting on a few small things and some 8"s to be made . 

#gettingexcited


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## lsm

I'm in


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## charles.beener

Sub'd


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## JayinMI

oabeieo said:


> 2 Stevins Audio HLCDS
> 2 Stevins audio 8"
> 2 Beyma 10g40s (or Stevins audio 10s have to wait till there available to check its parameters)


When I did a Google search for Stevins Audio, all I got was a mention on DIYMA about OnCore and Eric Stevens. If this is a different company, do you have a link? Curious about a brand I'd never heard of?

Jay


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## KrautNotRice

Looks like it's gon' be interesting! Along for the ride.


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## lsm

JayinMI said:


> When I did a Google search for Stevins Audio, all I got was a mention on DIYMA about OnCore and Eric Stevens. If this is a different company, do you have a link? Curious about a brand I'd never heard of?
> 
> Jay


Stevens Audio is Eric Stevens new company. Not sure if he has a website up and running yet. Oncore is DOA


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## nadams5755

JayinMI said:


> When I did a Google search for Stevins Audio, all I got was a mention on DIYMA about OnCore and Eric Stevens. If this is a different company, do you have a link? Curious about a brand I'd never heard of?
> 
> Jay


these might get you started:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/259249-will-8s-race.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/251705-es-audio-10-midbass-drivers.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/240321-new-8s-go-my-horns.html


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## Babs

FUN!! I'm in.


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## Lycancatt

I've considered those a pillars about the best for audio ever. wonder how big they will be with eights in them.


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## oabeieo

Lycancatt said:


> I've considered those a pillars about the best for audio ever. wonder how big they will be with eights in them.


It's going to be stupid big A pillars . I'm kinda nervous. But **** it why not, the low PLD makes me so excited for an A pillar build. 

When I had the santafe I had it dialed in so good but just wasn't happy, like real happy. Everything I was doing and the extreme amounts of DSP and FIR processing just could not replace the PLD problem. Sure it was good, but about 2 years ago I knew eventually I would buy this type of car. 

Every car that comes into the shop I would look at for potential SQ builds and the Fit just met everything that I like and want in a system. But gosh dang what a joke of a little ride, but hey it's a Honda , it's built well and drives .... Well like a Honda . 

I can't stand kick panels and HF coming from my legs, but the SQ from those locations just can not be done with a dash build unless you get that distance from the speakers. 

After listening to Wayne Watkins Mazda I knew that's what I was after , as far as perfect imageing from both sides and dash mounted drivers. but I also knew it needed a horn to be at my level. 

I'm sure I'll have to make some changes to my original plan, (that always seems to happen at some point) but for the most part I can't see any reason why this won't work. Well, minus the gas tank being under the front seats will make it difficult to get my midbass boxes in the floor , but I think I have a solution for that. 

I'm contemplating doing a sub/midbass inside the dash where the glove boxes are , like Wayne's it would work very good, I have to wait till I do the dash pull to really see what kind of room I have . 

It's going to be nice to FINALLY make a true SQ car for myself and not someone else. I've built countless cars for customers, I'm very excited to be able to do this for me at least once in my life. 

Im going to install a new HO alternator this weekend , I'll post pics along the way, I just got done doing 3 bulk packs of dynamat, the mlv , cc foam, and thinsulate will arrive next week , once the headliner is put back in I'll probably start the dash work. 

I don't have 2 years to spend building this car, but I do have one day a week for however long I need to get it done , my goal is to be able to start tuning by September


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## oabeieo

So I think my fit is a ex. Has power windows , ac, usb, cloth seats, no sunroof , and **** hubcaps. I m slowly going to morph it into a fit sport. Get the oem 8spoke 16" wheels in grey 

I just ordered a steering wheel out of a sport model , has wrapped grip, shift paddles. Just ordered new civic si steering wheel audio buttons as well. They bolt on wheel in knockout. Going to use the paddles for track forward/ back being the normal swc only has volume/ch/ mode , so I'll be able get more on the swc . I'll just have to read-wire the wheel a bit for the clock-spring and add a few resistors. 

I also just got BNIB fit oem floor mats , my wife is going to embroider "Stevins audio" into them. (Gives the wife a project  she wants do stuff to it also) 


Ive been dreaming up ideas on the dash and midbass. I think I'm going to build the dash to come up a tiny bit at the far back and make some jigs and incorporate a flus ring that has a long shape that spans the entire width, have it about 4.5" wide and on the ends make it angle back torwards the driver/passanger , I'll have the tops of the horn motors back inside there , I'll make it out of smoked plex so that I can pull it off to access the horn motors. I definitely will want to be able to put diffrent horn drivers on. This will mean I will have to somehow fix the stud of the driver mount to the horn body. I won't be able to get the horns out of the dash but I can make a tiny access cover to access the motors. The top of the firewall goes up to a small shelf like where the defrost vents are, that's where I'll cut the majority of the horn into the firewall. This will make it possible to get the drivers in/out with somewhat easier. Once the crash pad is back in I don't want to have to remove it to get to the compression drivers. 

The 8"s in the A pillar glass boxes I want to recess the 8s into the front of panel and make another jig that expands the "grill" to a bigger shape that joins the gill for the horns. I want to make the 8"s under that have a adaptor plate to I can interchange drivers , from 6"-8" . I just know I'll want to try diffrent drivers so I might as well make it part of the design. 

Just ideas churning , I like this thread for sharing ideas, but also as mental notes to self. 

Hope the new alt shows up tomorrow. Can't wait to get that portion done and over with.


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## JayinMI

oabeieo said:


> I also just got BNIB fit oem floor mats , my wife is going to embroider "Stevins audio" into them. (Gives the wife a project  she wants do stuff to it also)


Then you might want to make sure she spells it right. It's "Stevens Audio." Just so you know. 

Looking forward to progress. I like the 2nd gen Fit. Test drove one before I bought my Rio. Liked the car, hated the manual trans/clutch. 
Is yours a stick or auto?

Jay


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## oabeieo

JayinMI said:


> Then you might want to make sure she spells it right. It's "Stevens Audio." Just so you know.
> 
> Looking forward to progress. I like the 2nd gen Fit. Test drove one before I bought my Rio. Liked the car, hated the manual trans/clutch.
> Is yours a stick or auto?
> 
> Jay


Oh gosh now I feel dumb, that was Google voice spelling for me actually, I should probably have proof read that. Oops , no disrespect to the man. She's going to make it exactly as the sticker shows on the drivers. Font ..etc. 

Yeah it's a auto , it's slow as molasses so I'm not going to even try to make it fast. I drive downtown a lot so auto is much more comfortable of a ride. 
The rio is a very decent little car. My sis in law just got one, much faster than the fit


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## craiggus365

This build log sounds like something I should be watching.
I'm excited!


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## lsm

I wish you the best of luck with this build and can't wait to see it progress. I would recommend taking it to a metal fabricator to reinforce what you cut out, the last thing you want to do is get into an accident with a car that has had it's substructure cut away... I was very careful with that when modifying my car. I didn't wanna lose a leg in an accident because I cut too much outta my kick panel(s). I plan on driving the hell out of my car; not sure what your plans are so that may not apply to you....


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## jb4674

oabeieo said:


> Just got my Honda Fit , gonna do it up real purdy like and have some fun.
> 
> System will be:
> 
> Alpine double din with optical out (X008)
> 
> 2 minidsp 2x4HDs optical input
> 2 Stevins Audio HLCDS
> 2 Stevins audio 8"
> 2 Beyma 10g40s (or Stevins audio 10s have to wait till there available to check its parameters)
> 
> 1 Focal FPS 4160
> 2 focal FPS 3200
> 1 JLHD 1200/1 (eventually will be another focal amp)
> 
> 1 18" B&C subwoofer
> 
> Its a 2012 , has 6700 miles, super clean and fresh for a sick build.
> Been wanting one for a while when looking for the ultimate SQ car layout.
> 
> My goals are for it to image in both front seats.
> 
> I'm going to re-work the dash and cut the horns into the upper firewall right under the windshield. I'm also going to build a custom a pillar that allows 8" midrange to be mounted in the dash. The location for the 8" had a PLD just over 6". Where The horns will be I measure a PLD at just 4".
> 
> I'm going to do a subtub in the spare tire well for the 18" sub. And make it so I can run it either sealed/ported/IB. I'm going to make a port/vent that I can put a plug into, and make a plug on bottom of car that can be opened to vent out to atmosphere when I want to go IB.
> 
> The 10s will be in the footwells cut into the floor/firewall area and fiberglass enclosure that runs down the underside of the car and be sealed and have about/at least 1cu ft of airspace each
> 
> The amps will be mounted on a custom anorak that follows the back seat to its top, and will be floating so that I still have a trunk that is useable.
> 
> I am installing a high output internally regulated alternator. (270A)
> There will also be a second battery on a custom bracket in the engine bay.
> 
> Feel free to chat, definitely intrested in any ideas for the build.
> 
> The bucket,
> 
> [img=http://s32.postimg.org/v0n7fhqvl/image.jpg]
> 
> [img=http://s32.postimg.org/qax9qvzv5/image.jpg]


Let me help you with that:


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## oabeieo

jb4674 said:


> Let me help you with that:


Lol thank you !


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## oabeieo




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## oabeieo

I tryed to remove the dash today. Gosh dam I ran into a problem that ruined my entire life . 

I can't get the crash pad off!!!! 
There's a big metal bar that runs the span of the dash and it has metal brackets welded to it all over that the crash pad acres to in lots of little places. To get it out the doors have to come off to get to the bolts in door jam and the ****ing motor has to be pulled to access the bolts in the engine bay! 

I AM NOT going through all of that. I'm so discouraged right now. My only hope is to just take a air saw to the dash and cut. I am NOT doing that until I go to a junkyard and cut a dash out of a Fit to see what else is under there . 

The good news is behind the factory tweeter is a gallon of room . I can fit almost any driver I want down there. And that's the spot that has the lowest PLD. If worst comes to worst I'll do under dash horns or do a square horn body , like my small set of jbl 1.6k horn bodies I have. 

I can still do what I want it's just going to be a bigger PITA !


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## oabeieo

On a good side , I got some nifty 16" oem Honda racing grey 8 spoke wheels. Got a great deal on eBay for two , I will look around and find two more


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## oabeieo

Got the power plant today. Nice lookin alternator, 
Again, Ron at quality power is awesome. He made it custom for my car, he made me a personalized hand drawn mounting instructions, custom brackets. Awesome packaging. There awesome to work with. Can't wait to do the install.

Also got the fit tinted , did some 18% all way around.


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## KrautNotRice

Nice Grand Wagoneer!
Pics of new wheels?
And come on man, you can pull the engine and the doors for a stereo build  Hahaha


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## Mic10is

oabeieo said:


> Just got my Honda Fit , gonna do it up real purdy like and have some fun.
> 
> System will be:
> 
> Alpine double din with optical out (X008)
> 
> 2 minidsp 2x4HDs optical input
> 2 Stevins Audio HLCDS
> 2 Stevins audio 8"
> 2 Beyma 10g40s (or Stevins audio 10s have to wait till there available to check its parameters)
> 
> 1 Focal FPS 4160
> 2 focal FPS 3200
> 1 JLHD 1200/1 (eventually will be another focal amp)
> 
> 1 18" B&C subwoofer
> 
> Its a 2012 , has 6700 miles, super clean and fresh for a sick build.
> Been wanting one for a while when looking for the ultimate SQ car layout.
> 
> My goals are for it to image in both front seats.
> *
> I'm going to re-work the dash and cut the horns into the upper firewall right under the windshield. I'm also going to build a custom a pillar that allows 8" midrange to be mounted in the dash. The location for the 8" had a PLD just over 6". Where The horns will be I measure a PLD at just 4". *
> 
> I'm going to do a subtub in the spare tire well for the 18" sub. And make it so I can run it either sealed/ported/IB. I'm going to make a port/vent that I can put a plug into, and make a plug on bottom of car that can be opened to vent out to atmosphere when I want to go IB.
> 
> The 10s will be in the footwells cut into the floor/firewall area and fiberglass enclosure that runs down the underside of the car and be sealed and have about/at least 1cu ft of airspace each
> 
> The amps will be mounted on a custom anorak that follows the back seat to its top, and will be floating so that I still have a trunk that is useable.
> 
> I am installing a high output internally regulated alternator. (270A)
> There will also be a second battery on a custom bracket in the engine bay.
> 
> Feel free to chat, definitely intrested in any ideas for the build.
> 
> The bucket,
> 
> [img=http://s32.postimg.org/v0n7fhqvl/image.jpg]
> 
> [img=http://s32.postimg.org/qax9qvzv5/image.jpg]


I'll refer you to your own post and Eric's response.
Horns are intended to be listened to off axis. VERY Few cars have pulled off horns in the dash with any real success of the car actually sounding good.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/270922-crossfire-angle.html


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## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> I'll refer you to your own post and Eric's response.
> Horns are intended to be listened to off axis. VERY Few cars have pulled off horns in the dash with any real success of the car actually sounding good.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/270922-crossfire-angle.html


Well hopefully I'm one of the few. I'm doing it !  and how many of the ones that did try it point the horn streight up into the glass (YUK) that would be a trainwreck of arrival times imo. Not to mention all the other combfiltering problems that would be a issue as well. I'm not pointing them torwards the sky, that would shrink the stage to the car interior and cause so many bad problems. They will be firing straight forward like a underdash setup, and far back like your bmw was . Just up a little higher so the HF isn't buried into my legs. 

I have been spending months playing with them on and off axis, preparing for this , in that thread Eric gave me some very key info as to understanding how it all works. Comparing what Eric said and what I have listened to I my own tests, I think I'll be successful. I will have a 4" PLD from either seat from head rest to motor. The horns will not at all be up close and in your face. The mounting is going to go straight forward and relitive to head position the horns will be about as high as your chest. So they will be relatively low , thus making them in-between off axis and off axis. At a distance of 44" driver and 49" passanger ( from driver seat) and 42" passanger and 47" driver (from passanger seat) I think it should do very very well. ( so wierd how un-symmetrical a car is, driver seat is more in middle of car and passanger seat is very close to passanger door panel, they definitely gave the driver more room) 

The problem in my tests has been mouth termination at crossover. I can definitely hear the air break around 1k, subsequently where the horn size it self is at its absolute lowest point (minis) above 1k it's fine. I wasn't able to simulate this car and the termination ( obviously I haven't made the cuts yet) but if I keep the crossover above 1k it shouldn't be a issue. Although I'm banking that the windshield will help terminate the horn very well. The glass is flat and has no concave shape to it at all, that should help tremendously for combfiltering and such . 

In my tests I really wanted to know at what point on the horn the energy is thrown out from the horn the strongest, I want to further test that so I can possibly get the correct Angle (if any) to the horn when I mount them. I think I'm just going to have to see how it works out when time comes. Based on what Eric has said, the strongest point should be in the area right at the opposite listeners head area. I used a yard stick and followed the shape of the horn right at the flare about 2" away from the edge of mouth, and it points to that spot in car. So, hopefully it is right. I also took my rta and put a 1.6k/3k/5k/ sine wave and measured spl as I slowly moved mic about 6" in front of mouth of horn and watched for where the highest spl was as I moved the mic from side to side in front of the horn. I also tryed some the same thing off axis slightly. I got a 6db gain on the sides of the horn compared to directly in front of it . 

I think I'm going to have to worst case add some foam around the mouth of horn where it terminates . Just to get some of the energy calmed a bit. And have some foam paneling on the bottom 3" of the windshield all the way across. As well as some foam on the a pillars , 

So, yeah . I totally get what your saying. The horns ARE meant to be played off axis. And I agree , so I'm mounting them off axis, just not very far off axis, and definitely not below the dash. 

If its dismal failure I will be the first to admit it and I'll simply change to a diffrent horn, like a 4"x4" jbl. Or a 10"x2" selinium, on the contrary I think it's going to work out very good. Eric's horns still toss energy to other side on axis, and they still sound good on axis. They just work remarkably well off axis. I just need to worry now about what to do with all that off axis energy that smashes into the windshield. I'm pretty sure a 10" foam pad should do the trick pretty good.

Why not just use a diffrent horn all together? One that is made to be on axis? Well that's a good question, I just can't find one the sounds as good as Eric's horn *in a car* on axis. I have about 10 different types of horns or waveguides. And IMHO, Eric's horns still paint a more realistic stage on axis as a selinium or a jbl or a peavy horn can. 

The biggest problem with Eric's horns on axis is PLD and Eric even said it himself and I absolutely agree with him while heartily, PLD has to be low low to get it to work right on axis. In my Hyundai I had a 14"PLD, I had FIR processing and gobs of shelving eq on the right horn just to tame its output. The right horn was further away but louder than the driver side by 10db. And it was wierd, it normalized under 2khz, I had to do a shelving eq centered at 1600hz and bring down the right side so much to get it to sound correct. It worked , but the problem was the horns were too close to the listener and a artifact of it again was poor PLD. 

Getting some distance between the listener and the horns allows the opposite energy to get to both ears in correct time so It can work the right way based on the horns shape. I think it's the ITD/IID stuff at play that makes them work so good but I'm not sure. I'm not a hearing expert, but I am a thinker.  

So, I'm not sure if you were trying to reccomend I not do it , or were just warning me about there off axis inherent design, however I assure you it can work good. Definitely nothing I would recommend to someone to do, because these horns are not meant to be on axis, and again I'm not using them on axis. At least not completely.   


Think about the space you listen in, think about it more as space rather a car interior , now use why you know about speaker behavior and think it out. 

If a horn controls the pattern of the dispersion off axis a certian way that is desirable, who says you have to stick it under the dash? Well the manufacturer reccomends it yes, but why? Because that's the spot in a car interior that is off axis, what if it was mounted directly in front of you and the moth of the horn was pointing to the floor? Well , it would control the pattern the same as it would mounted under the dash right? Yes, that part dosent change , you would have to completely remove the dash all together for that to work, however if your just far enough off axis for the pattern control to work our beneficially and the source of the sound is in a desired location, why would it work? The only thing I can come up with is off axis reflection, that can be controlled in HF pretty easily with dampening. 

By the end of it I may have a completely custom horn like some have done, but maybe not. Well see.


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## Mic10is

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/151544-horns-top-dash-2.html


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## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/151544-horns-top-dash-2.html


Nice find, thank you! I haven't read that thread, however even not reading these responces tells me I have the right approach with the treatments and placement 



Eric Stevens said:


> If you can couple the horn with the windshield and then treat the top of the dash with proper sound absorption foam to prevent compound reflections it should work excellent.
> 
> Eric





Eric Stevens said:


> Poor PLD (path length difference) so it would only work for single seat and the dispersion pattern of the under dash horns that makes them work well in a reflective environment will only work mounted horizontal.
> 
> To sum up, wont work well at all.
> 
> Eric


Again, that truck had a setup much like my santafe did. Very close in proximity, can only get to sound really good in one seat with gobs of dsp . 

I'm going to have a cream puff for PLD. At least I hope so   

On pats thread you have been against upper dash mounting as well, which I agree with as well . I'm against it for 90% of cars that a underdash is better suited. My santafe underdash arrangement was horrible, nothing could get them to sound right. I sat too far upright and the underdash was too far forward meaning my legs were inches from underdash. 

The FIt I can do underdash pretty good, I sit pretty low, I probably will try it before I go chopping things up, but I know I'll end up with the up top.  
Call me crazy but I like it .


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## oabeieo

Got most of the CLD installed. Just that alone made a huge difference, tomorrow I do closed cell foam , MLV, and thick padding . The stock padding I decided to leave in contrary to what SDS (sound deadener showdown) reccomends. I think they might want you to just use and buy more of there material, maybe some cars stock padding isn't good, the stock padding in the fit is very dense and thick. I kept it in just skipping the thick padding step in those areas. In fact the stock padding seems a bit better than the SDS stuff, whatever , it's in there. 

Also got some wiring pulled to the back. Ran OFC speaker wire , three runs to the front. I used electrical tape around the runs with black loom on top of that. Just to match the factory runs . The Honda loom is more grey than black , but at least it's the same type of insulation. 

On the rcas I taped and loomed all 4 runs in one bundle. Ran a remote and source ground wire as well. 

The 0ga stinger OFC I did not use tape on, just black loom on top of it. I thought it was cleaner that way so went with it. 


The spare tire well is very shallow, I was wanting to start fab on that and get some glass down. I think I'm going to take the car to a buddy that welds airplanes. I think he has some engineering expertise and want to know if he can build a metal cage that is like a strut brace bar but for under the car. The spare tire well under the car has structural frame beams that connect the main car beams together in the back. If I cut out the spare tire well to make it deeper , I think the structure will be compermised , so I'm going to have to weld some beams in/under the lowered spare tire well. 

Joy, I wasn't expecting to have to do that, but I definitely want some kind of trunk left , and want to keep weight down. And I still want me triple configuration enclosure for the sub.


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Got most of the CLD installed. Just that alone made a huge difference, tomorrow I do closed cell foam , MLV, and thick padding . The stock padding I decided to leave in contrary to what SDS (sound deadener showdown) reccomends. I think they might want you to just use and buy more of there material, maybe some cars stock padding isn't good, the stock padding in the fit is very dense and thick. I kept it in just skipping the thick padding step in those areas. In fact the stock padding seems a bit better than the SDS stuff, whatever , it's in there.
> 
> Also got some wiring pulled to the back. Ran OFC speaker wire , three runs to the front. I used electrical tape around the runs with black loom on top of that. Just to match the factory runs . The Honda loom is more grey than black , but at least it's the same type of insulation.
> 
> On the rcas I taped and loomed all 4 runs in one bundle. Ran a remote and source ground wire as well.
> 
> The 0ga stinger OFC I did not use tape on, just black loom on top of it. I thought it was cleaner that way so went with it.
> 
> 
> The spare tire well is very shallow, I was wanting to start fab on that and get some glass down. I think I'm going to take the car to a buddy that welds airplanes. I think he has some engineering expertise and want to know if he can build a metal cage that is like a strut brace bar but for under the car. The spare tire well under the car has structural frame beams that connect the main car beams together in the back. If I cut out the spare tire well to make it deeper , I think the structure will be compermised , so I'm going to have to weld some beams in/under the lowered spare tire well.
> 
> Joy, I wasn't expecting to have to do that, but I definitely want some kind of trunk left , and want to keep weight down. And I still want me triple configuration enclosure for the sub.


I had a hell of a time getting mlv to fit in my door. Eventually gave up and ripped it out when the door panel wouldnt fit on properly anymore. So be very careful and tedious about how you get it on there. The velcro stickies add thickness as well and after they are on for awhile. They dont like to come off.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> I had a hell of a time getting mlv to fit in my door. Eventually gave up and ripped it out when the door panel wouldnt fit on properly anymore. So be very careful and tedious about how you get it on there. The velcro stickies add thickness as well and after they are on for awhile. They dont like to come off.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


dood you ain't kiddin, the ram I did ( http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nstall-gallery/227282-2015-ram-build-log.html ) was a total horror to do. I spent the better part of a week on it ( the sound treatments) and have been dreading doing it in mine. 

In fact the gent that owns the ram hook me up with all his left over SDS materials , totally enough to do my car. He's such a good dood , I'm so thankful for that. 

But yeah, the fit doors are tiney and I'm not at all looking forward to doing it . 
Being I'm not putting speakers in the doors tho , I think I'm going to use as much stuffing that will fit in there without the pannel pops coming un-snapped  lol


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> dood you ain't kiddin, the ram I did ( http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nstall-gallery/227282-2015-ram-build-log.html ) was a total horror to do. I spent the better part of a week on it and have been dreading doing it in mine.
> 
> In fact the gent that owns the ram hook me up with all his left over SDS materials , totally enough to do my car. He's such a good dood , I'm so thankful for that.
> 
> But yeah, the fit doors are tiney and I'm not at all looking forward to doing it .
> Being I'm not putting speakers in the doors tho , I think I'm going to use as much stuffing that will fit in there without the pannel pops coming un-snapped  lol


Id like to try filling my doors with expanding foam. I wonder how well that would block sound.


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Id like to try filling my doors with expanding foam. I wonder how well that would block sound.


Minus the Windows not being able to go up/down I bet it would work killer! 

Ok I was kidding, I know what you meant  

There are factory foam blocks in a lot of cars that feel just like dryed expansion foam. 

:scratch head: I think your on to something


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Minus the Windows not being able to go up/down I bet it would work killer!
> 
> Ok I was kidding, I know what you meant
> 
> There are factory foam blocks in a lot of cars that feel just like dryer expansion foam.
> 
> :scratch head: I think your on to something


Its to stiffen the panel against the metal. I feel like the mlv method only works on specific cars. It has to be an all or nothing treatment too. Sound is like water. It can be loud through even a small hole.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Its to stiffen the panel against the metal. I feel like the mlv method only works on specific cars. It has to be an all or nothing treatment too. Sound is like water. It can be loud through even a small hole.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


That's so true , I had a customer in a older f150 come back to the shop complaining that the engine seemed louder, she thought we cut a big hole in the firewall, after inspecting the truck, the factory unused grommet we poked the power wire through came un-seated somehow. So a 1" hole was now exposed to the inside of the car, right behind it was the exhaust manifold granted , but still , a flimsy thin plastic grommet kept SOOOOOOO much sound from coming in the car. 

I was mystified that she was able to hear it because to me it seemed so minor, but she pointed the sound out and she was right.


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## oabeieo

Put the 270A monster in today. Worked out well
































image hosting over 5mb


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## oabeieo

Starting my test placements today. Hooked up my handy dandy 12 yr old Kenwood amp I modded. Sick tiny little amp btw. 

Put some very nice 4"/1" computer speakers in my desired locations and starting testing.

For where I want to put my midrange I have a PLD of 6". From 350hz-and up I don't need any TA to get a nicely centered image, under 350hz it's hard to tell. It's not totally clear and sorta muffled. I need my dash mat to show up and some treatments to really tell . 

So far so good. It's going to work, I'm really hoping the 250-350hz range works out that could really smear the image for both seats if it's not done just right. 

I've been on a anti-time alignment kick, it seems to really destroy stage width in a hurry and causes nothing but problems. I'm hoping to just use TA just between drivers on the same side and zero TA against drivers on opposite side.

Found the cars dip today also. Looks to be centered about 390hz. Hopefully I can work placement angles enough so cancelation from side to side is minimized. I know there won't me a whole lot I can do, but being at that frequency it won't matter a whole lot where the speaker is "aimed" it will matter in the speakers upper range. I'm going to have to try a few diffrent aiming spots to try to get the suck out reduced while maintaining proper pattern coverage throughout the drivers bandwidth. Something tells me I'm going to have to make a compermise. 

I have about 45degrees total positioning adjustments to play with and still have the install look good and not behave something different from either seat. 

Anyway. Getting excited to start the fab. Also not excited. It's going to be a crap load of work.

Does anyone know where I might get the braided loom? I really want to use that. I want red and black. I need 0ga , 10ga, and 16ga sizes. Or whatever . I want to do all my underhood and speaker runs with it.


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## JayinMI

Most everyone seems to use Furry Letter's store on eBay. Great prices, great selection and great service. 

Wirecare.com and Parts Express also carry some, but not a wide variety.

Jay


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## oabeieo

JayinMI said:


> Most everyone seems to use Furry Letter's store on eBay. Great prices, great selection and great service.
> 
> Wirecare.com and Parts Express also carry some, but not a wide variety.
> 
> Jay


Thanks Jay. Just ordered some !


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## oabeieo

Got the wheels today!! Woot woot 






screen cap


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## oabeieo

got the civic si steering wheel buttons working today. I did the whole wheel and got aftermarket illuminated buttons. Used the paddle shifters as vol up/down. Had to re-wire the wheel a bit. All works and is good . Gotta love the SWIRC


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## Niebur3

oabeieo said:


> Put the 270A monster in today. Worked out well


Did you figure out how to disable the Honda ELD?


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## oabeieo

Niebur3 said:


> Did you figure out how to disable the Honda ELD?


Yeah, there's a few different ways to do it . I want to keep the pcm codes working, yet I want full power mode on demand. 

So , after studying the ELD schematic on all data and other sources I have found a way to "trick" the ELD into going into high power mode with some resistors. And some basic wire tapping. 

What I want to do is add a 2nd external voltage regulator to control the add on circuit. There's guys that have done the mod by use of a toggle switch, I want it to do it on its own.

I think I should be able to use the regulator and a tr7 to trigger the in/outs to the custom circut. 

It's the only way I can think of to controlling it. If it dosent work I'll use a toggle switch .


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## Babs

Nice progress! Si steering wheel. No wheels. Big alternator.. Dang son!


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## KrautNotRice

oabeieo said:


> Got the wheels today!! Woot woot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> screen cap


I see you got dem 420 edition wheels... 
I've been following your build and just had a question:
What are the pros and cons of horns in a car, from your experience?
Is it that they have better off-axis response and can be crossed lower, raising the sound stage, plus higher effciency? Why are some people against horns in a car?
Thanks!
And we need some shots of the wheels & steering wheel mounted


----------



## oabeieo

KrautNotRice said:


> I see you got dem 420 edition wheels...
> I've been following your build and just had a question:
> What are the pros and cons of horns in a car, from your experience?
> Is it that they have better off-axis response and can be crossed lower, raising the sound stage, plus higher effciency? Why are some people against horns in a car?
> Thanks!
> And we need some shots of the wheels & steering wheel mounted


thanks for lookin and responding. 
Yeah horns are kinda tricky to get to sound good. Only in the sence that they get very very loud with very very little distortion. So that leads a lot of first time horn users to over gain them. They are a bit tricky to eq as well and tune. But the benefits are well worth it. 

They are very forward sounding. They really put the high end concert pa sound in a car very easily. 

The only real cons about car horns other than tuning is horn honk, or higher order modes. Horn honk is when the mouth of the horn is not terminated correctly. A user might try to eq out the honk or barking sound to get them to sound good but at the expense of frequency response. Like 1.2k is a big problem for most horns. It's the band where the mouth of the horn/size reaches wavelength. The high pressure air from inside the mouth will break and become low pressure and will have a snapping sound. Properly mounting the horn under the dash (or where ever) extending the horn flare reduces honk dramatically. If one can't get good termination a higher crossover point is the only option. That way the high pressure to low pressure changes happens inside the horn and the flare on the horn acts like a round over somewhat. 

HIgher order modes or HOM is where there's diffraction and reflection inside the horn. A frequency can bounce around inside the horn and basically get louder. It's like a harmonic side band that is too loud. If one try's to eq it than you are eqing down fundamentals so the system won't sound correct. Some sort of padding can be used to filter out HOMs. Foam is most popular and works very well. But a good mouth termination and proper mounting of the horns as a pair can minimize these problem.

This may sound intimidating but really it can be dealt with, I could give you more reasons why not to use a direct radiator. 

The good thing about car horns is there off axis responce and pattern control. It's crazy how well they get sound to go upwards and place L/C/R information across the sound stage with articulate perfection for both sides of the car. 

In my experience not every car works very very good with horns. About 75% of cars will work very well. The other 25% (just a wild guess) the seats are too forward and lower dash line is too low. Someone could make modifications in these kinds of cars to get them to work. These are typically a suv with a very tall dash and a seat that dosent go very far back and very large center consoles. Even in those cars good imaging can be achieved with a soundstage slightly below the top of the dash. Most cars tho sound stage is above the dash. 

As far as pics go  yeah ill post some pics of the wheel up tonight. That was such a fun mod to do. Nothing like getting a modification done in a hour and have it work flawlessly.


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## Elgrosso

Nice write-up, I didn't plan to use my ES before few months... Will be harder to wait!


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## oabeieo

Some pics of the wheel and some other goodies that showed up  

One of three batteries came today , and of course the ugly but sound pleasing dash mat. Had to do "SQ-Fit" embroidered into it . Yeah I'm a nerd so what?! 










image hosting site no sign up


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## oabeieo

Did some cutting today. Got the hole in the dash sized up for the horns. 

Cut 10" of dash away, I just figured 10" Is roughly 1000hz and is the leinght of the horn mouth , so might as well have that much area in front of the horn. 

I'm going to cut the rain tray/fire wall next and get the horn to sit flush up against it. The horn motors will be out side the car. 

Also did some testing with some test speakers in that location. Images good in both seats. If I add 2" of TA it locks the center in, so it looks like I might have to play with that when comes time to tune. I'll either have one seat image good and the other image excellent, or have both image good. We'll have to see what happens. 

The cool part is when I have zero TA the vocal image is just beyond the windshield and nicely center. I'm going to have to get used to listening this way it's so diffrent than the last car. My first reaction is start playing with TA to get the vocal center on the dash board. It's just center mid hood now. 

It will also be intresting to see how the horn and midrange combo images together. 
The more experiment with it it seems like I might be able to mount the midrange firing up torwards the windshield. I'll have better PLD doing that but I really don't want to fire a speaker into the glass. I want to use the glass as a wave guide not a reflector.

Hopefully I will cut the metal tomorrow or the next day. And get the horns in there home


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## oabeieo

So I was only able to cut half the horn depth into fire wall. It's still sunk in. It still mates up windshield. The driver side had a dam wiper motor that made it so I could either cut the horn off by 2" or have it stick out 1". I have it stick out 1". 

The cuts are done, now time to fab the a pillar Windows and the horn shroud. I'm going make a HUGE round over for the horns that mates it to windshield.

Will be fun!


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## KrautNotRice

oabeieo said:


> thanks for lookin and responding.
> Yeah horns are kinda tricky to get to sound good. Only in the sence that they get very very loud with very very little distortion. So that leads a lot of first time horn users to over gain them. They are a bit tricky to eq as well and tune. But the benefits are well worth it.
> 
> They are very forward sounding. They really put the high end concert pa sound in a car very easily.
> 
> The only real cons about car horns other than tuning is horn honk, or higher order modes. Horn honk is when the mouth of the horn is not terminated correctly. A user might try to eq out the honk or barking sound to get them to sound good but at the expense of frequency response. Like 1.2k is a big problem for most horns. It's the band where the mouth of the horn/size reaches wavelength. The high pressure air from inside the mouth will break and become low pressure and will have a snapping sound. Properly mounting the horn under the dash (or where ever) extending the horn flare reduces honk dramatically. If one can't get good termination a higher crossover point is the only option. That way the high pressure to low pressure changes happens inside the horn and the flare on the horn acts like a round over somewhat.
> 
> HIgher order modes or HOM is where there's diffraction and reflection inside the horn. A frequency can bounce around inside the horn and basically get louder. It's like a harmonic side band that is too loud. If one try's to eq it than you are eqing down fundamentals so the system won't sound correct. Some sort of padding can be used to filter out HOMs. Foam is most popular and works very well. But a good mouth termination and proper mounting of the horns as a pair can minimize these problem.
> 
> This may sound intimidating but really it can be dealt with, I could give you more reasons why not to use a direct radiator.
> 
> The good thing about car horns is there off axis responce and pattern control. It's crazy how well they get sound to go upwards and place L/C/R information across the sound stage with articulate perfection for both sides of the car.
> 
> In my experience not every car works very very good with horns. About 75% of cars will work very well. The other 25% (just a wild guess) the seats are too forward and lower dash line is too low. Someone could make modifications in these kinds of cars to get them to work. These are typically a suv with a very tall dash and a seat that dosent go very far back and very large center consoles. Even in those cars good imaging can be achieved with a soundstage slightly below the top of the dash. Most cars tho sound stage is above the dash.
> 
> As far as pics go  yeah ill post some pics of the wheel up tonight. That was such a fun mod to do. Nothing like getting a modification done in a hour and have it work flawlessly.


Thanks for taking the time to explain the pros & cons of horns in a car! I had no idea about any of that.
The dash mat stitching is a nice touch!


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## oabeieo

Spent the whole day in the sun in fab. Massive sub burn . 

Totally kinda bummed about my triple configuration sub box. My idea is not going to work. 

It could work and I probably will do it at some point but the spare tire well is only 4" deep. I went to cut it out and realized there's some serious structural beams that go through it on the bottom of car. 

I do t have a welder or a metal shop. So, I think I'm going to do the amps and batteries in spare tire well and do a regular sealed box.

On the good side of things my dash fab is going good. Got the horns Nicely tucked away into the cowl. My projected PLD of 4" turned out to be 5" after mounting them and measureing. Ill take it. The bad side of things the PLD where the mids will go will not be that low. I'm going to have to stick with some off axis a pillar mounting. If I go on axis (I can get 6"PLD but than the left side speaker blocks the edge of horn that's parrellel with left ear. I don't want to loose that direct sound so , I'll opt for slightly off axis and get 7-9" PLD. 9" on the close side of driver and 7" on the far side of driver: 

I think it will still work pretty good in both seats as long as I aim them correctly. I've been testing with a few diffrent test speakers and got it to work. Nice center , good width. And for god sakes no time alignment. 

I'm very worried that the custom work will block stuff , I'm been thinking very hard how I'm going to make it look good and sound correct. 

The car is going to definitely have the look of a sound studio with all the sound absorbing paneling I'm installing In lower windshield and sides of dash area. It seems it's the only way I can get it to work right on both seats. It's just starting to look like too much foam. I'm going to have to make cuts to it and find where it makes a difference and where it dosent and than somehow integrate that into a decent looking install. 

I'm definitely going to keep some very unexpected elements as a suprise for the end. Let's just say I ran a extra set of wires to the dash. And no I don't mean for a center channel. 

It definitely has to be able to swap drivers easily. I love trying new speakers and sizes too much to be stuck with a install that has to use one set of drivers. 

So far I would say I'm 70%aprx to my original ideas and 30% has changed from the 1st post.

I threw in the p99. I'm having some issues before I buy the x008. I just found out the optical output dosent have a volume control from the deck. That's really dumb. 

I was thinking maybe get an old PAC swc module that does IR and send vol up/down buttons over a diffrent swc module to the 2x4hds . I have to make sure that will work before I do that tho. So I stick with the p99 for now until I get that all sorted out,


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## oabeieo

Got the minidsp 2x4HDs installed. 
The lower glove box houses 4 dsp's , 2in 4out. For a total of 16 dsp channels. 

Yeah I'm a FIR snob I guess. Soon everyone will be doing it and it will be commonplace, the advantages are far too good (one you learn how to make a good set of filters  )

I'm going to use two platforms to make my FIR filters. Filter hose and re-phase. Running 96k sample rate. 

Anyway got them all installed and playing.


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## oabeieo

Glad I haven't ordered the other two FPS amps. 
Might just stick with the setup I already have based solely on space. 

This setup fits like a glove. I don't think I have the room for two more class AB amps. 

I'm not 100% on this but maybe I can stack an amp underneath the board and have a couple up on top of it but than I would have to raise the floor.

If I keep this setup (which is a proven setup) it will fit as is , and the stock cover will go on and no one would be able to tell anything is even in the trunk. I kinda liking this idea. 














image hosting


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## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Got the minidsp 2x4HDs installed.
> The lower glove box houses 4 dsp's , 2in 4out. For a total of 16 dsp channels.
> 
> Yeah I'm a FIR snob I guess. Soon everyone will be doing it and it will be commonplace, the advantages are far too good (one you learn how to make a good set of filters  )
> 
> I'm going to use two platforms to make my FIR filters. Filter hose and re-phase. Running 96k sample rate.
> 
> Anyway got them all installed and playing.


Wow, so you'll cascade 2 pairs?


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## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Wow, so you'll cascade 2 pairs?


I'll Just use 1/2 of each one. The 2x4hd has 4096 taps available. 2048 for left and 2048 for right. With a 96k impulse response I will need at least 2048 taps per speaker to get the level of convoluteability (new word maybe?). Low amounts of taps can have pre ringing and other artifacts of a FIR filter that is undesirable. Although I've used the standard 1024 taps at 96k and had no ill effects, but for some of the filters I've been making it requires more taps. I'm doing linear phase crossovers as well as some all pass fir filters. And basicly making fir filters that add delay/phase changes to parts of a speakers bandwidth. 

I've been playing with the 2x4hds enough and taught myself with the help of andy wehmeyer and Simon aka Hanatsu. And a few others. I think I've got pretty good at making fir filters. They sure do sound good at least so that must mean something. Still No expert , but I plan on becoming one  that **** is fun to do ! 

So yeah, I just want to be able to have more taps so I got 4 seperate units. 

Also , the p99 has 4way active and it's nice to keep and use the crossovers in the p99 however , I have been using LR crossovers so I won't use the 4way in the p99. Just use it as full range outputs . 

I wouldn't cascade dsp's , going from d to a back to d back to a is enough punishment on the signal, 

If I can get the volume sorted out I will go ahead and buy the x008 and use optical into the dsp's just for that reason.


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## oabeieo

Got the wire braids today. What a pain in the ass to put on 16' leinghts. Looks super nice tho. I honestly don't care about this kind of install gear, but now that I have my first set it is pretty nice. 

Just way too much work, split loom goes sooooooo much faster


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I'll Just use 1/2 of each one. The 2x4hd has 4096 taps available. 2048 for left and 2048 for right. With a 96k impulse response I will need at least 2048 taps per speaker to get the level of convoluteability (new word maybe?). Low amounts of taps can have pre ringing and other artifacts of a FIR filter that is undesirable. Although I've used the standard 1024 taps at 96k and had no ill effects, but for some of the filters I've been making it requires more taps. I'm doing linear phase crossovers as well as some all pass fir filters. And basicly making fir filters that add delay/phase changes to parts of a speakers bandwidth.
> 
> I've been playing with the 2x4hds enough and taught myself with the help of andy wehmeyer and Simon aka Hanatsu. And a few others. I think I've got pretty good at making fir filters. They sure do sound good at least so that must mean something. Still No expert , but I plan on becoming one  that **** is fun to do !
> 
> So yeah, I just want to be able to have more taps so I got 4 seperate units.
> 
> Also , the p99 has 4way active and it's nice to keep and use the crossovers in the p99 however , I have been using LR crossovers so I won't use the 4way in the p99. Just use it as full range outputs .
> 
> I wouldn't cascade dsp's , going from d to a back to d back to a is enough punishment on the signal,
> 
> If I can get the volume sorted out I will go ahead and buy the x008 and use optical into the dsp's just for that reason.


Cool, I hope you'll document your future tuning process too .
Not too much of a pain to manage 4 devices separately? Or did you find a solution for plugging them all in the same time?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Cool, I hope you'll document your future tuning process too .
> Not too much of a pain to manage 4 devices separately? Or did you find a solution for plugging them all in the same time?


Manage them seperatly, lol yeah but the more complex it gets the more fun it is to stay on top of that t all. 

I basicly have 4 diffrent USB cords that come out of glove box, there marked sub/low/mid/high 

Yes I will definitely post up some measurements and such


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## thehatedguy

Do the minidsps have enough delay to correct for group delay everywhere?


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Do the minidsps have enough delay to correct for group delay everywhere?


More than enough. They come with 80ms analog delay and 22.5ms for a 2048tap fir filter @96k

One could buy just one unit in a 2way allocate 1842 taps on a sub box and 206 taps for a midbass (which is plenty using good appropriate impulse centering) 

The 1536 tap could fix group delay from a ported box up to about 19ms. , as well as add a linear crossover and still have no ill effects to frequency response.

If one used an entire unit just for sub , you could get 4096 taps going and get group delay correction to almost 50ms . 

That's pretty awesome , the most I could see someone needing is about 3000taps for sub. And under 1000 for everything else.


----------



## oabeieo

Pic of three of the 4 minidsps . 4th one is in my house setup for now so I can play filter making. 

I made a filter for the sub that sounds really really good, using 1748 taps 
And it's only 8.8ms long. Just a Lin phase custom cosine shaped roll off . Roll off look like a bell shaped. Zero ripple nutall-Blackman windowing , energy centering . Amazing sounding bass . It really is night & day diffrent vs. standard crossovers. 

The best way I can describe it is -' you know when you TA your midbass to the sub and you can TA a certain area that anchors the sub up front.? Well the sound is sorta like that, but better, because there's no TA. The midbass and sub are in perfect alignment in time with each other. Even with 48db slopes you can still hear the speaker half way through the first oactave of roll off. 1/2 oactave in sub range is dam near 30% of the bass. So about 30% of the bass is a massive train wreck of arrival times. With a simple fir filter none of that is an issue. I'm just so surprised this technology hasn't hit the mass market sooner. We've had 400mhz processing for quite some time now. But it's here now and it's not very difficult to get working really good. Granted it does take Some effort of fiddling with different programs and such, but it's fun. 

Enough rambling, here's some pics of the minis. I think I'm going to move the minis to behind the glove box and have the usb cables go in the glove box. Not sure how I want to trim it out and make it permanent


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## oabeieo

Getting the new wheels and new tires put on now. 

I hope they done scratch them or mess up wheel sensors . Will post pics tonite


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## oabeieo

Got some pics the new wheels on. Had to hunt for the right tires. Very oddball size, overall I like the way it turns out. For 16s looks like I probably could of got away with 18s , but I'm glad I didn't , the 98hp motor would have had a ***** of a time trying to turn them.


Pretty good transformation from a basic fit to a sport fit.


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## lsm

Lookin good! Keep the pics coming!!


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## thebookfreak58

Keen to understand how you did the group delay with the miniDSP. Step by step?


----------



## t3sn4f2

oabeieo said:


>


Nice looking Alternator! You might wanna change the way the ground lug is mounted to the negative post of the battery. Those Honda OE terminals are low torque strap like contacts. You can pretty much tighten them till start to stretch and touch. That means that your aftermarket lug will never really be solidly grounded since you can't really torque them down without destroying the terminals. And even if it does feel solid it could easily come loose over time from vibrations and the cable torquing it constantly. Add to that the face where the lug is butting up against isn't perfectly flat so the contact point is reduced. 

Unfortunately the only way to get around the problem is to replace the terminal. I suggest removing and keeping the OE ground cable. That way you can put it back if you ever sell the car. Then using the thick cable as your new ground cable. Cut the lug off the battery end and put a terminal that supports that gauge. The other end of the cable is fine.


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## Lyons238

nice work m8 looking forward to more


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## oabeieo

t3sn4f2 said:


> Nice looking Alternator! You might wanna change the way the ground lug is mounted to the negative post of the battery. Those Honda OE terminals are low torque strap like contacts. You can pretty much tighten them till start to stretch and touch. That means that your aftermarket lug will never really be solidly grounded since you can't really torque them down without destroying the terminals. And even if it does feel solid it could easily come loose over time from vibrations and the cable torquing it constantly. Add to that the face where the lug is butting up against isn't perfectly flat so the contact point is reduced.
> 
> Unfortunately the only way to get around the problem is to replace the terminal. I suggest removing and keeping the OE ground cable. That way you can put it back if you ever sell the car. Then using the thick cable as your new ground cable. Cut the lug off the battery end and put a terminal that supports that gauge. The other end of the cable is fine.


Yeah thanks Dood  
Actually I need to update the pics I added braided loom and got stinger brass 0ga ends for all the alt runs.

As far as battery post I have 2 Xs power xp750s going side by side where you see the stock battery , that way I can keep the factory battery terminals inONE battery and a bus bar to the other battery. 

In that pic I had to do something temporary so I could drive that's why I did that for time being. I didn't want 270A going through the stock 10ga wire lol.


I just got the new battery's waiting for the posts to show up and will do the conversion 

I'm also doing a plexi cover over both


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## oabeieo

lsm said:


> Lookin good! Keep the pics coming!!


Thank you! Oh yes can't wait for more time to working it



thebookfreak58 said:


> Keen to understand how you did the group delay with the miniDSP. Step by step?



I will do a write up I promise


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## oabeieo

Okay gang I made a SHORT video of the minidsp and rephase , it's 13min and I easily could have gone into a 2hr lecture, there's so so much more to it than what I put in the video, I will make a Ernest effort to do a actual write up on the product review page, with 6kifs and Work it just a time thing for me , I would love to make the contribution so I will do small bits and pieces of it over the next few weeks and I'll start a thread on that sub forum 


I have had a few people ask me to show some basics so I made this video . I'll be happy to answer any questions 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGHGqK2I78&sns=em


----------



## oabeieo

^ sorry for horrible demonstration of making a filter , obviously if one was to spend a bit more time you could get a really nice filter created. That was just to show some basics lol


I'll build a sick set of filters and video it , I'll go through the entire process


----------



## oabeieo

Here's another short video or making a filter for a compression driver. 
Just a quick tho together, but just shows how easy it is to make a very unique shaped filter 


https://youtu.be/FA-5FVzCvKg


----------



## oabeieo

Got a lot of pms sent , I think I have responded everyone . 

Got to wait another 45-60 days for the 8s to be made available.

Starting to think there not going to ever come. Must be patient, it's hard but I really want those 8s . 

I wish so much there was a 4ohm or 2ohm HE mid bass in 3"-4"-5"-6"-8"-10" with shorting rings and copper caps and neo motors with lots of overhang and lower fs and midQ .
There's none! Kinda sad , I must be patient and wait, until than I will maybe do a different driver , I just have my heart set on those SAs


----------



## thehatedguy

Which 8s?


----------



## thehatedguy

Those videos answered a lot of questions that I had...and solidified me wanting a pair for my self- maybe one for the mids/highs and one for the sub, or one left and one right.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Which 8s?


 the Es audio neo 8s of course 

I get kinda jealous when I see other have some n I can't get any yet


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Those videos answered a lot of questions that I had...and solidified me wanting a pair for my self- maybe one for the mids/highs and one for the sub, or one left and one right.


Yeah, with the channel linking it makes more sense to do one for sub/tweet and mid bass/mid .

That arrangement make the taps work out beautifully. And channel linking can tune speakers as pairs , if did one left right you couldn't do that , anyways everyone tunes each speaker set separately anyways for best rta outcome doing a left/right would make that difficult.

Once you have a good set of filters dood they sound really really good , 
And a low tap filter vs.high tap filter as long as the predicted result is the same the performance of filter is same. There's no benefit of using more taps if a low tap filter does the same thing . I confirmed that by asking pos himself


----------



## thehatedguy

I heard that...been wondering how they sounded. Eric hasn't had any feedback on them yet. Been going between 8s or 10s. As much as I want 10s, 8s might be better.

Looking for something to make me forget about that JBL love affair that I have.


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeah, left and right might not be the best way to do things. Only doing a 2 way front plus sub, and one for the sub and one for the rest should be more than plenty of taps everywhere to do anything I would want (or so I get that feeling after reading), your way would be great too.

Well, your way might be better considering how many octaves each would be playing.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, left and right might not be the best way to do things. Only doing a 2 way front plus sub, and one for the sub and one for the rest should be more than plenty of taps everywhere to do anything I would want (or so I get that feeling after reading), your way would be great too.
> 
> Well, your way might be better considering how many octaves each would be playing.


That would a very nice lil setup.

Nice thing also is with fir you would still have a 4th chan to do that imaging driver or opsodis driver or whatever you want. Lin,phase makes the overall phase response as if it was a point source or something. So the drawbacks of going to a 4way diminish on the contrary, don't wanna start putting drivers all over the car, they still need to be acoustically close to each other in mounting locations . 


thehatedguy said:


> I heard that...been wondering how they sounded. Eric hasn't had any feedback on them yet. Been going between 8s or 10s. As much as I want 10s, 8s might be better.
> 
> Looking for something to make me forget about that JBL love affair that I have.


Yeah , I can't frikkin wait.


----------



## Darth SQ

Sub'd.


----------



## oabeieo

Did the ELD work around, 

The SMD forum says use 820ohm resistor, that was wrong 

Here's my thread on fit freak 
GE8 ELD bypass - Unofficial Honda FIT Forums


----------



## oabeieo

Kinda nice being able to hit the switch and get full alt power. The new alt drags the car down when bass hits. Lol could use the bass to stop me because it's draggin so hard.


----------



## bayiganteng

sub'd


----------



## oabeieo

Got the fiberglass box made for the 10G40s. Got a total of 2.1cu (net) 
Box looks kinda ugly under the carpet , had to use a few different materials , did 4 layers of fiberglass with glassmat, and on sides and top stretched carpet to make shapes than did glassmat on inside, and a layer of CLD on the in side.

Going from .5cu ported to 2cu sealed the beymas sound amazing. They dig down into the 40s at full power. 50-200hz has a nice , oh so very nice low thump to them. Nothing like the right amount of airspace on that thin paper cone with a ton of power on it. By far the best sq midbass I've ever had. Playing to 280hz can not tell the sound is behind me at all when the dash 6s play down to 125 (yes overlap ) the Fir filters have no phase distortions so it really makes them disappear and the midbass is anchored to the 6s. However they also give a sense of spaciousness being behind the seat in the midbass bands. Of course it's preferred to have them in front, but to get 2cubes sealed that would be difficult for any car. The trade off of prime location for the best responce with authority and no colorations because too small pod was with it in every way. 

Pics in 2min


----------



## oabeieo

upload gambar


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Got the fiberglass box made for the 10G40s. Got a total of 2.1cu (net)
> Box looks kinda ugly under the carpet , had to use a few different materials , did 4 layers of fiberglass with glassmat, and on sides and top stretched carpet to make shapes than did glassmat on inside, and a layer of CLD on the in side.
> 
> Going from .5cu ported to 2cu sealed the beymas sound amazing. They dig down into the 40s at full power. 50-200hz has a nice , oh so very nice low thump to them. Nothing like the right amount of airspace on that thin paper cone with a ton of power on it. By far the best sq midbass I've ever had. Playing to 280hz can not tell the sound is behind me at all when the dash 6s play down to 125 (yes overlap ) the Fir filters have no phase distortions so it really makes them disappear and the midbass is anchored to the 6s. However they also give a sense of spaciousness being behind the seat in the midbass bands. Of course it's preferred to have them in front, but to get 2cubes sealed that would be difficult for any car. The trade off of prime location for the best responce with authority and no colorations because too small pod was with it in every way.
> 
> Pics in 2min


Wow dash 6s? I must have missed a lot.
I'm surprised by how high you can play, them that must be pretty good.
Best I could get myself was about 150hz in rear sides. I hope it was my tune, so I should try again!
When you said overlap, you meant acoustically?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Wow dash 6s? I must have missed a lot.
> I'm surprised by how high you can play, them that must be pretty good.
> Best I could get myself was about 150hz in rear sides. I hope it was my tune, so I should try again!
> When you said overlap, you meant acoustically?


Well the fs is 45hz I made a FIR filter that has a notch at fs and then a 12 DB slope at 40 Hz , yeah it's only really possible when you give the high efficient midbass a lot of airspace I had them in .5 before and it would drop like a rock under 100 honestly my system sounds amazing without a sub wil yeah it's only really possible when you give the high efficient midbass a lot of airspace I had them in .5 before and it would drop like a rock under 100 honestly my system sounds amazing without a subwooget. I'm pretty sure Gary even said that it's pointless to do a sealed box and less you have adequate here space and he was right Lol

But yeah overlap meaning the crossovers overlap but with phase linear crossovers And careful TA between front and rear midbass honestly can't even tell their back there . I'm really excited about this box it turned out to Sound way better than I thought it would


----------



## Darth SQ

Well done.
How's the foot room for the passengers?


----------



## oabeieo

Yeah, I started the dash pods. Temporarily put the 6s in dash for trial and error testing. I'm making some filters to offset phase differences between both seats. Trying a few different angles and trying a whole lot of different filters (fir). I've got it imaging really really good in both seats to my surprise the passenger seat actually images a little bit better than the driver side and I thought for sure early it would be the other way around being that the passenger side has more PLD but whatever it is what it is . I've also started my acoustical dampening treatments with foam and I'm having very good results of noticed a lot of reflections happen on the side of the speaker (kinda weird) definitely minimize comb filtering now. It really sucks when you have a bunch of peaks off to the side where there's reflection I think that I'm getting it about as good as it's going to get I'm going to start fabrication on the dash this next week


----------



## captainobvious

Definitely looking forward to seeing more progress on this one. Nice work!


----------



## KrautNotRice

The Honda Fit was my first car ever when I started Gran Turismo 6 so it will always have a special place in my heart. lol
Pretty sweet you were able to fit two 10s under the seat and not lose any trunk space.


----------



## oabeieo

KrautNotRice said:


> The Honda Fit was my first car ever when I started Gran Turismo 6 so it will always have a special place in my heart. lol
> Pretty sweet you were able to fit two 10s under the seat and not lose any trunk space.


Lol I remember that game. Yeah there's two 15" in trunk too lol 



captainobvious said:


> Definitely looking forward to seeing more progress on this one. Nice work!


Thanks


----------



## oabeieo

Just some more pics, here's the two new Xs power batteries. Got to make a new ground for one yet, (ran out of 0ga clear) I just ordered two maxwell super capacitors , I'm going to get a nice electronics case for them and mount one bank between alt and bat and one on amps. 

The hood batteries I also am getting a Xs power battery cage with new aluminum strap and I'm doing a plex cover over it with a voltage gauge either in battery tray or on cap bank. I'll do something custom on the mount












jpg images


----------



## jb4674

Why didn't you just put a 3400R instead of running two 51 batteries in there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Thx guys! 
Yeah it's coming along... Changing plans again, not doing the ipal sub any longer , just ordered two sundown SA-15s , I have one before , went to b&c to get a specific sound now the midbass give me that sound I was after 100%. And I miss the sundowns in sealed boxes. They are really very good sounding. Still a sq build, but with nuances of sql. Lol  



jb4674 said:


> Why didn't you just put a 3400R instead of running two 51 batteries in there?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Faster charging when hot. Getting a Xs lithium and these coming out with two mini super cap banks 




Darth SQ said:


> Well done.
> How's the foot room for the passengers?


Thx dood , foot room , they have all the foot room. It doesn't take away any, it's all under the seat. I'm going to put some grills on it so kids don't put heel through a cone .


----------



## oabeieo

got some a pillar fiber glass love done. Total re design on original idea, this way was much easier , not quite as cool, but after some test fitting and listening , the left horn was getting obstructed a little , went for the old teardrop shape, (whatever it worked ) wanted to do a much more radical design , just couldn't fit it all with where the horn mustgo 

Will post pics in a min


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Got the new subs today woot woot 

Also got to do some test fitting. Can't wait till I can load them with SA drivers 
Next will be horn mounting and fab . Once that's done it will be a Vynil / suede combo 










images hosting


----------



## oabeieo

I'm still doing 8s btw ..... Lol just inside the dash. The 8s were just a bit too big for the a pillar for how I wanted it to look. The 6s sound great and should still be able get SAudio 6s and 10s ..... 

A nice cool evening in Colorado tonight. The alternator is gushing electrons flowing nicely system sounding awesome. Can't wait to get the horns glassed and get more done


----------



## oabeieo

Just about destroyed the pillars , was having one hell of a time getting them to sound right in both seats. I finally got the offset filter that does it. 

It was a entire afternoon of making fir filters. I was taking measurements and making an exclusive filter for each side , I needed to combine and average both left and right with mic positions on driver and passenger seat. Than find areas where these was more than 90deg of diffrance and rotate just that area. I was trying to fix too much. I just had to center the halfway mark between the biggest phase diffrance 160deg and make a filter with a Q of .5 and rotate phase 80 deg on one side. Leaving the driver side alone. It affected the entire bandwidth of that driver (160-400hz) images very very very good in both seats now. 

Definitely saving that filter for later . 

Got horns mocked up as far as placement goes and took some listening overall. Horns have 0 phase ajustments and .25 ms delay against the midbass the 8s in dash play 400-1k and have no TA and no phase ajustments. 

I'm not sure if you would consider it a 5way system being the 10s and the 6s have overlap and the 10s and sub has overlap as well...... With Fir I think it's possible to do a 100way system and not have any problems as long as phase and alignment is addressed at the listening positions in the min phase regions. I could be wrong but I do not hear any problems with it at all. Yeah once you creep up on 1k it's different story , but under ..... Oh I would guess 5 to 6 hundred hertz I don't think it's a problem.

I can't get it to image right without the 8s in the dash. Yet... I might be cutting more dash soon maybe not. I haven't totally gone nuts on tuning I want to wait till fab is over. But it's working out pretty nice. Stage depth is definitely right at apex of window. Want to try to push it outside just a bit more....

My next idea is to try to ditch the 8s go with just a 6/horn in dash and make a horn flare out of wood that will match up to the SA mini horns and extend the horn just a bit so I can shape the pattern a tad. I think if I do that I'll get a ton less comb-filtering and be able to push the image out to where the motors are mounted. 

The glass really is a dam disaster and I have about the best shaped glass for acoustic horn loading and it still is far too reflective. Even with foam on bottom and top of glass you can hear the glass and makes the stage width sheik to the size of the car. Which isn't totally bad if it's spectricly balanced , just would like to get it out a bit deeper and get the sound to layer a bit better... It's close , it's a tricky combo of filters and acoustics. 

I can't complain tho. As of now it's turning out very good.... Nice to be able to do some listening tests. I can't express how awesome the 10s are behind me.... All the carpet and cloth seats , hardly no reflection, have them again no TA and playing well below any imaging areas I can not tell there back there but when unhooked can't feel drum attacks and such... Still sounds good just that attack is missing .... 


Just getting excited...... It's coming together


----------



## oabeieo

Finally . It images very nicely in both seats. Quite remarkably well also.
Had to steepen the "house curve" a bit more to 2.2db/oac , 

Can't wait till the permanent speakers are released so I can finish my fab on the dash. 
Saw pics of them yesterday the 6s are BIG. But doesn't worry me too much. I'm pretty sure I got the space. If not I'll rebuild pods


----------



## oabeieo

Decided to drop some bigger horns in my holes. Surprised they even fit and go that far back. 

Imaging is good, width of course is suffering a tad bit having them towed in. If I cut a bit more I could fit them down so they parallel and not towed in. 

After a listen the big horns sound better , got them crossed at 680-48db 

I know I have the space for a TAD compression driver. If this works out I might just get the TAD. And possibly venture into a custom made horn. 
If I was to do that I would want it to be done the right way. 

I'll probably play with this for a week than mount the big horns under dash and add a super tweeter up to , ( I'll use a compression driver of course) 

I just want to try all my options before I finish building. The 6.5s and 10s I've got dialed in , I need to keep the 6.5s under 800hz because of some lobing and comb filtering, being off axis they start bimming around 800, and are fully bimming by 1300. Between there the 6,5 has un-even energy and it's off-axis into the glass is causing some comb filtering and reflection issues. Under 600 the 6.5 works really good for both sides of car. So my thoughts now are to get better control over the directivity and use the horn going streight forward. 

I seriously might just end up with the horns under the dash. And a small waveguide/horn up top where the horn starts to bim it's fun tho


----------



## nadams5755

Are those 6" 430nds? Impressive.


----------



## oabeieo

nadams5755 said:


> Are those 6" 430nds? Impressive.


Lol as a matter fact they are  thank you. 

And those are also DE-45 compression drivers on big horns down in the firewall
Those horns are not small by any means. I'm crazy but I really like it like that.


----------



## oabeieo

Made leaps and bounds in stereo width and imageing and two seat listening.

Moved phase at 250hz on dash 6s -22.5° On both drivers with a Q of 2. 

Crazy how the horns pull the sound from the 6s and make everything sound centered. 
What's even weirder is as soon as I add any delay to the sides the width collapses. 

It sounds more defined with one seat tuning as far as just center vocals go but in two seat tuning vocals are still centered just down in the 100-250hz band the sound isn't focused its more diffuse . But seems to be more correct sounding than one seat tuning. Definitely more ambiance with two seat tuning. 

I'm starting to believe that what we thinks sounds the best as a final slope of the systems frequency response largely depends on the phase and power responce of the system. 
All the trickery that goes into shaping sound sometimes doesn't necessarily mean we have to run to the TA every time we can't get a center image to appear. I'm convinced that TA should be used last of all else and just be used for fine tuning phase rather than entire wavelengths; at least in minimum phase. And I also believe minimum phase is extended in a car into the 1200s (Hz) because of ultra early reflections or speakers loading into windshields.


----------



## oabeieo

Took out the de45 , that was just for fun and I wanted to hear that driver again. Forgot about its nasty resonance at 3.6k

Put the Stevens Audio compNeo back in. Got to say that is one very good sounding compression driver. I think polymide has finally grown on me. In term of just SQ it's one of the best drivers I have heard as far as wide bandwidth goes. It literally only needs a wide Q cut at 4K about 13db in my install and sounds very good. So different than any compression driver where usually there is some very abrupt EQ swings. This think really does play 800-20k with no problem and no boost in any of the top end. It does behave a bit better on the big horn vs. mini but I think all drivers do better on the big horns. Imo. 

Got the minidsp APF update now. Switched back to APFs for some correction filters to save FIR taps. Works just fine. 

This build has hit a bump and will be getting a whole new set of drivers soon. I'm ditching the sundown subs because of weight. I think I'll give the JBL 18" sub a try its 1/3rd the weight I'm packing around now. And I don't need this much basss . It's just silly to have this much. I only did it for power handling but f it . If I blow another sub I'll just buy a new one . 


Wanted to share a pic of the drivers I just got and will attemp to fit in the fit, 
I won't have they're-built for another 6mo or so. 
I will finish my build before hand and possibly do two front stages. 

I'm thinking do a kick panel and under dash horn setup and my above dash mid/horn setup at same time. Do a speaker selector switch and have two DSP profiles one for each mode. 

There are days I want a layered wider stage and wish to go back to under-dash, and there's days I want everything coming from up-high. Doing both would be fun as well. I just need to be careful how much weight I'm adding .


photo sharing


----------



## SQram

Very similar path I went down with my installs. I've had both the TAD 2001 and 2002 in under dash arrangements over the years, but I eventually went back to a small format driver because the physical benefits outweighed the slightly better frequency results.

I've done countless under dash horn arrangements with every horn imaginable, and I prefer the horns above the dash in my existing install. Just my personal preference, I know others will disagree. I'll be curious to see if you stick with the under dash set once you get it installed. 

Have you tried the passive horn compensation network? It will most likely knock down the big hump in your frequency response. Just something else to tinker with, similar results to knocking it down with your EQ.


----------



## oabeieo

SQram said:


> Very similar path I went down with my installs. I've had both the TAD 2001 and 2002 in under dash arrangements over the years, but I eventually went back to a small format driver because the physical benefits outweighed the slightly better frequency results.
> 
> I've done countless under dash horn arrangements with every horn imaginable, and I prefer the horns above the dash in my existing install. Just my personal preference, I know others will disagree. I'll be curious to see if you stick with the under dash set once you get it installed.
> 
> Have you tried the passive horn compensation network? It will most likely knock down the big hump in your frequency response. Just something else to tinker with, similar results to knocking it down with your EQ.


Thanks for the reply! 
Yeah I've done that in the past. It worked very good. I love the above dash horns. It really sounds very good. I got this car just specific for that type of install. I have enough DSP to do any kind of correction imaginable. So it's not really a issue. The responce is flat and sounds good, I just want to try underdash before I spend 40+hours in custom work. Also the TAD will only fit under dash unless I cut more metal. (Which I'm ok with) 

I'm very impressed with the ES neo drivers. Have you had a chance to play with them at all?. They don't sizzle like a 2408 but as far as sq in a very wide bandwidth I haven't heard any quite as good.


----------



## oabeieo

Got the 4552nd 8ohm coils. Had to give them a try. This time on the full size horn.....
That driver just does not quit or give up. 1.6-10k has no breakup modes at all. Really sounds good loud. 

If someone wanted to build a system based on the loudest clearest this driver is it. As far as bandwidth it's good drops off a bit at 1k and 12k but it doesn't really matter for loud it's actually better it does that almost. 

Coming from Es compNeos , I preferred those for overall sq and frequency response. 
I'll play these for a bit and probably switch back, I don't listen balls out loud all the time. This week I'll try gobs of Eq on these and force a flat line and see how they do.


----------



## Elgrosso

Ho guys you're really teasing me with your up-dash horns!
My dash is so smooth and symetrical and the windshield angle quite accute I'm sure it could be great. That's major project, but I can't see not trying in the future...

Whatever, are you talking about the neocomp vs pro, or the ES midbass? I recently installed the comp to replace the pro, and they reacted very well, smoother with more highs, much less EQ needed at the end (but still wip).


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ho guys you're really teasing me with your up-dash horns!
> My dash is so smooth and symetrical and the windshield angle quite accute I'm sure it could be great. That's major project, but I can't see not trying in the future...
> 
> Whatever, are you talking about the neocomp vs pro, or the ES midbass? I recently installed the comp to replace the pro, and they reacted very well, smoother with more highs, much less EQ needed at the end (but still wip).


Lol, oh you caught me rambling. 

I was just giving praise where it was due to Es. 
I was comparing it to what driver I have mounted this week.
The compNeos have a tiny breakup modes up super loud but at normal levels and even just normal loud levels they do extraordinarily well. 
I keep going back to it over more expensive drivers. 
Maybe it's the polymide I'm getting hooked on. Plays everything.

Yeah I think I had a normal cut a 4K and that was it for Eq also. I've never had a compression driver use so little Eq to sound good. I mean even a basic deck Eq could tune them. Really opens a lot of doors for horns in a car


----------



## oabeieo

Going for a total redesign.....part 3 here we come .

I already hate it and it not even done 

Going to do kicks with 8s and the tad driver with under dash horns and a horn up top for sparkle.

It sounds good , had good imaging in both seats, the comb filtering is driving me nuts


----------



## thehatedguy

I would do a larger AMT on top for the sparkle.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> I would do a larger AMT on top for the sparkle.



Okay!!! I'm just getting very bored right now I want to try something very cool but I actually want it to work out .

Do you have any recommendations?


----------



## SQram

Before you worry about sparkle, you should probably buy the diaphrams for the TAD's and determine if it's indeed missing? I had no desire to add supertweeters with mine.


----------



## rton20s

Maybe you can guinea pig those new Sony XS-GS1 "High Resolution Super Tweeters."


----------



## Elgrosso

Bored? You mean you did fit the TADs already?


----------



## oabeieo

@ sqram Only if the underdash alignment drops below the dash past 5k I'm banking it will. I would hate to add a 2nd driver to a TAD but I will only if I must . 

@elgroso 

Lol , no there not in yet. I just got them all cleaned up. It will be about 6mo before I've saved enough for the diaphragms. But they fit. That part is solid. The lip of the horn sticks off the under dash 1" , I'll make a piece that mates it to underdash and vynil it. Them motors are ginormous. 

@roton - Sony are you being serious. Lol . I'm not that board  he he he 
Just want to re-do the fronts. Having it in the glass and up high is very nice and it does sound very dang good but gosh dang at louder volumes you can really hear the glass , and it smears the soundstage so bad. At mid vol it's killer! 
I think I'm getting board of upper dash , my old systems back in the day had a much lower soundstage but geesh it was exciting to listen to. I need to go back for a while to the dark old days


----------



## Elgrosso

Ha ok... You know what, since you want go back down, why not making you own horns?
By maybe just extending the full body a bit, or a lot? You have the knowledge now, and they would be ready for the TADs later!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ha ok... You know what, since you want go back down, why not making you own horns?
> By maybe just extending the full body a bit, or a lot? You have the knowledge now, and they would be ready for the TADs later!



Yeah. I've thought about it . Homemade horns aren't my boutique as much as making filters. 

Besides ......

upload pic


Can't quit now. I've just begun ****ing up a perfectly good car


----------



## oabeieo

Took the Bms 4552nd and mounted on full size horn and crossed it at 800.
And went underdash. 

I'm calling out mic10s . Mic ........you were right. I shoulda listened. 

Nevertheless.a fun day in playing with my toys 










screen shots


----------



## Elgrosso

What, you still have the center console! Didn't rip this out?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> What, you still have the center console! Didn't rip this out?


THe center console is 1" tall in front of the horns. No need to. . 

It's not even a console really, more like a eBrake trim piece and shift cover. 
Sorry the camera shot doesn't show that very well. But yeah the horns are mounted above that



Edit : okay U mean near the cup holder , yeah doesn't give me any issues, horns mounded above that too. Barley


----------



## Elgrosso

Haha yeah it's a bit dark there on the photo. Well I just meant that scrapping for scrapping, you could easily make a perfectly smooth under dash too.
(I like this, makes me want to buy a car just for this fun).


----------



## oabeieo

Yeah , definitely got lucky on that. There are some things that suck about it but eventually I know 

By the time I'm done I'm sure I'll have a speaker location in every logical spot . I am doing kicks and abandoning the dash. 


What sucks is it didn't work out super awesome. It was just good . 
I knew going into it would be able make one hell of an upper dash car, and I think I did for the most part. It had a good solid image nicely center for both sides. 
But I was confined to the dimensions of the dash as far as stage goes. And that's what I think mic was warning me about. It was a thinking error on my part because I knew what he was saying was traditionally correct. I thought I could be the odds and beat laws of physics too. Armed with enough DSP power to make any outcome I want the glass and the way sound combines when it hits glass is un-fixable. 

I do very much prefer the upper dash setup as far as balls out loud goes it was definitely fun and impactful, it's just time now to get back to real basics and do what works not because it's been done a million times but because it works and that's why it's been done a million times. 

The trade off is lowered stage. But not too low. All the psychoacoustic stuff appears up high because of DSP trickery and that's what I don't like about being down low. You have to sacrifice preferred frequency response for frequency response that supports stage height. The benefits tho, wide, deep, natural, highs not mashed together . Having the highs not mashed together by far made it worth it by itself. But I do very much hate that i can still "tell" that there's a speaker under the dash. Even tho when it's up high and your into it you can't tell there's a speaker under the dash. So it's good and bad.

For now I still have the 10s in back. Those are for sale. It's fun being able to have 100hz play as loud as 2-15" and a house curve that looks more like a stock chart on a bad year. Lol straight down. 

So..... anyways . I have the 2118h I'll probably start with those, but the es drivers asap. And . Do 8s and horns and sub and maybe some rears if I get board again. 

I took the 4552nd off today also put back on the ES driver . (I always go back to it When I want a shot of mid volume pure SQ) 

upload a picture


----------



## oabeieo

So I took one ofmyold dynaudio 182s in a small sealed box threw it on passenger floor and unhooked the 10s 

Much better. Yes . Much much better yes. 

I can't stand how low it sounds but f*** it sounds so much better. 

Before I got on the high efficiency kick I was sold hard on dynaudios because they sounded so much like the old idq8s in small sealed boxes. I forgot how nice they sound and almost discarded them as not good enough of speakers. Up against es horns they sound fine. Good in fact . ...

I think I might just use them in the kicks. I miss a midbass that can play down to 60 without being colored by resonance. 

Maybe I'll do the 182s along with the 6g40 as a midrange. This might be the next setup


----------



## oabeieo

After some thinking .... 

I think I can cram an 8" in a Tube enclosure of some sort above the horns inside the dash. I could have them fire up or down . 

I could do the dyn 8s sealed and the 6g40 or the PHL or something in the kicks with under dash horns . If I do that I won't be able to do the tad , but it would make it what I think I'm after . 

Besides , the Stevens Audio compNeo driver is very much on point and sounds great. Maybe till I get the tads up n running I'll do this. 


Im finally on to something. I'm not board anymore.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> After some thinking ....
> 
> I think I can cram an 8" in a Tube enclosure of some sort above the horns inside the dash. I could have them fire up or down .
> 
> I could do the dyn 8s sealed and the 6g40 or the PHL or something in the kicks with under dash horns . If I do that I won't be able to do the tad , but it would make it what I think I'm after .
> 
> Besides , the Stevens Audio compNeo driver is very much on point and sounds great. Maybe till I get the tads up n running I'll do this.
> 
> 
> Im finally on to something. I'm not board anymore.


Hoho sounds like fun.
So midbass back in front? I know some of the best used midbass behind, but I can't wrap my head around it. Everytime I tried there was always some sort of clue to pull the sound behind (head movement or late reflections?).

Tubes in the dash like mono or on the edges of both panels to replace the vents?

I noticed the cld on the horns, I tried that recently trying to get rid of some ringings, surprised how it worked great!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Hoho sounds like fun.
> So midbass back in front? I know some of the best used midbass behind, but I can't wrap my head around it. Everytime I tried there was always some sort of clue to pull the sound behind (head movement or late reflections?).
> 
> Tubes in the dash like mono or on the edges of both panels to replace the vents?
> 
> I noticed the cld on the horns, I tried that recently trying to get rid of some ringings, surprised how it worked great!



Midbass behind works. It just dosnt work all that good. And I had every kind of DSP config imaginable, it sounds good the problem with it is the wavefronts collide instead of combine . It takes all the snare impact out and identity sound awesome. And as some have noticed, I like awesome . (Flame away if must) 

So I'll do the 8s in big tubes on each side (2 of them) inside the dash on each side firing streight down right above each horn driver. (Or streight up I'll have to experiment) 
Than the horns underdash and a 6" midrange in kicks. I WANT the midbass to have a big enclosure otherwise I would do 8s in kicks and horns and no midrange. I like the dyns because at 60hz in a small box they don't sound colored and have smooth plentiful bass. . 

If my plan doesn't work I'll do es audio 8s in kicks with the tad CDs


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Midbass behind works. It just dosnt work all that good. And I had every kind of DSP config imaginable, it sounds good the problem with it is the wavefronts collide instead of combine . It takes all the snare impact out and identity sound awesome. And as some have noticed, I like awesome . (Flame away if must)
> 
> So I'll do the 8s in big tubes on each side (2 of them) inside the dash on each side firing streight down right above each horn driver. (Or streight up I'll have to experiment)
> Than the horns underdash and a 6" midrange in kicks. I WANT the midbass to have a big enclosure otherwise I would do 8s in kicks and horns and no midrange. I like the dyns because at 60hz in a small box they don't sound colored and have smooth plentiful bass. .
> 
> If my plan doesn't work I'll do es audio 8s in kicks with the tad CDs


Ok it worked but just not as good as in front. That's what I experienced too.
That relativizes what I can read here and there.

So big 8" in your glovebox and near the column?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ok it worked but just not as good as in front. That's what I experienced too.
> That relativizes what I can read here and there.
> 
> So big 8" in your glovebox and near the column?



No .... sorta. The 8s would be behind the dash board far back in the corners . 
Behind the fuse box and heater box there's a BIG open space. Big enough for an 8" round box on each side and able to make it about 10" tall. A little bigger than milk gallon sized. So the sound would be pushed back all the way. Right above where the horn motors are mounted .


The biggest problem with dash mounted drivers is non-minimum phase regions. 
Basicly the distance between the driver and the glass is longer than the wave length. So that's mostly HF , figure the first reflection is 5" away that's roughly 2000hz and up. Impossible to Eq out that stuff. It shows up on excess GD as well. That confirmed it for me. Basicly how it works is if the distance is longer frequencies that are shorter by 1/2 wavelength will cancel and every halve of that as well making a comb shaped responce. A comb filter looks like a comb for a reason. Lol. Wish there was non reflective glass. That would be awesome


----------



## oabeieo

Just got a set of Dynaudio Esotar 6.5s online from a pawn shop in Belford CN. 70$ 
Lmao I hope they come as described. 

Instead of doing the mw 182s I'm going to do two sets of dynaudio 6.5s in my tube enclosure onefiring up and firing down. That way it will be arrayed and should really help fight any nulls . 

I'll run them up to about 500hz and have the mid come in in kicks at 500 to 1.2k


----------



## Elgrosso

Up to 500hz, isn't it a bit high for dual midbass? I'm sure they will have both their TA but I'm just curious.


----------



## LumbermanSVO

Somehow I missed your build thread until Elgrosso asked me about an my new idea that sounds similar to yours...

I enjoyed reading this and I'm sure I'll enjoy your future progress!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Up to 500hz, isn't it a bit high for dual midbass? I'm sure they will have both their TA but I'm just curious.


I'm going to mock up a tube withpvc , damp it , and try it . I have no idea if I'll like it or not or what exactly the xo would be. 
But should be able get 500hz before bimming or before wavelength starts to get too short for said reasons. 

Hopefully I can get it going tomorrow and give try.


----------



## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> Somehow I missed your build thread until Elgrosso asked me about an my new idea that sounds similar to yours...
> 
> I enjoyed reading this and I'm sure I'll enjoy your future progress!


Thanks. 



Heya , would you know how to convert AES to optical? AES digital not analog.

Lil project I'm thinking about trying


----------



## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Heya , would you know how to convert AES to optical? AES digital not analog.
> 
> Lil project I'm thinking about trying


If size isn't a concern: 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/264903-REG/Behringer_SRC2496_ULTRAMATCH_PRO_Sample.html

Cheaper and smaller is this: 

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-ODL-312-Converter-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B000068OGR

If you'd like more FIR power at the same time, I believe you can get an APL-1 with AES digital in and Toslink out.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I'm going to mock up a tube withpvc , damp it , and try it . I have no idea if I'll like it or not or what exactly the xo would be.
> But should be able get 500hz before bimming or before wavelength starts to get too short for said reasons.
> 
> Hopefully I can get it going tomorrow and give try.


Sure trying is always fun. 
I kind of enjoyed my previous dual setup, the sound was full with no dips.
But to get clarity back I had to use it as 2.5way, filtering one midbass only lower and lower, to the point that the advantage wasn't really here anymore.
But you'll probably have better control with your fir experience.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Sure trying is always fun.
> I kind of enjoyed my previous dual setup, the sound was full with no dips.
> But to get clarity back I had to use it as 2.5way, filtering one midbass only lower and lower, to the point that the advantage wasn't really here anymore.
> But you'll probably have better control with your fir experience.


Well, i did it . It works pretty alright. 
I ended up using it to 500hz 48db and the pr170mo in each corner on the dash to 500-12db. Having the audax pushed way far forward allowed me to use no TA so both seats sound good and the tubes have no TA as well. I'm on to something, the pr is crossed i the upper end at 1.2k-12db and the horn1.2k-12db as well. Needed to crossover on dashmids to be high enough so thehornsdont pull the sound down on floor but enough overlap in the sideband to blend the horns to the mids. Yes some FIR to align the phase responces and linearize the rolloff. I'm getting one combfilter before inaudible stop band crossed that high on the glass around 1.6k but the horn is into full power at that spot so it is ever so barley smeared (but definitely acceptable) much better than before. 

60-300 is where the tubes do there best. Lots impact lots low bass from them. But the sound is colored pretty bad at 150hz and need -12db-Q1.2 to tame. 
I think I'll re-purpose them as up-front subs tomorrow and add the 6nd back with no enclosure and use tubes when I feeling über SQ ish and want no sub from rear. I need to start making some kicks soon. What's weird is for frequencies 100-1k you almost can't tell if speaker is on floor or sitting on dash . Well you can, but not that much and the bass is better down low ....

I wish I was a metal guy and had a metal shop


----------



## Elgrosso

Cool, any pics? So did you use 4 midbasses or only 2?
That must be something, and kind of strange to have the horns down, then midbass upper, than midranges higher than everything else.

I so want to try the PR170, for sure will bring some back on my next trip to Fr.
(Just received some 2118 that I also need to try, don't know where to fit them though...
Maybe just in my small door enclosures and midbass behind)


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Cool, any pics? So did you use 4 midbasses or only 2?
> That must be something, and kind of strange to have the horns down, then midbass upper, than midranges higher than everything else.
> 
> I so want to try the PR170, for sure will bring some back on my next trip to Fr.
> (Just received some 2118 that I also need to try, don't know where to fit them though...
> Maybe just in my small door enclosures and midbass behind)


 The PR 170 MO is a great sounding speaker honestly it runs in the break up really bad , it doesn't get screaming loud without break up . 

I just used my two sets morel 6.5s One of the pairs has modeling clay in the voice coil  i'll try and get some pics posted shortly


----------



## thehatedguy

The PR170s can be bought from Madisound.

Bring back PHL 1120s.

But you have the td6ms...which was AE's trying to best the 1120s...which the 1120s are improved PR170s.


----------



## Elgrosso

Yes I really look at the phl too, and maybe in 8".
Because I like the simplicity of the two way 
In doors with midbass in rear I don't have high expectations, or maybe stereo subs going high enough? This I could try.

Added that I just want to hear the Audax by myself.
Sure Madisound, but they're half in FR. Kind of dumb with all the mess to bring them back I know 
2xpr, 2x1120, maybe 2x2400, damn'' I'll need a bigger luggage...


----------



## thehatedguy

I ran a set of PHL 2540s for a while... really nice pure midrange.

I'd rock some 2440s in a 2 way.


----------



## Elgrosso

Ho, and 16 ohms ok? 4 or 8 I don't care, but 16 seemed like a stretch.
Thinking about the 2411nd... but I didn't really study the midranges/extended.


----------



## oabeieo

I'm due to try a phl. 

Way back in the day I had a set of 4" poly cone rubber surround car audio drivers. 
Don't remember what they were, I liked em a lot.
Is there anything in 4" these days that up our alley?


----------



## Elgrosso

Phl has some interesting 5", or the aerogel serie maybe? Always wanted to try them, lower sensitivity though.


----------



## oabeieo

Lately I've been tinkering with auto Eq on REW. 

It's like it works but sucks at the same time. 
I've got one really good measurement and optimization out of it. Every time I use the target it wants the tune sucks and has up to 20db of cut. 

I copied the biquards into an editor and made some tweaks to it and got it pretty good. 
It doesn't do a super hot job at it tho. 

Maybe I need to manually do my rta work on the PEQ outputs first than do a global auto Eq on the input. Idk seems like it works better that way but than I have to boot the input signal. And I hate boost on anything. - so ..... anyway 

I really like the pr 170mo up top with the 6nd and low horns so far. 
I think my next thing to try is do 3 sets of 6s and a midrange. So a 6 up top for midbass and a set in front and rear doors for midbass . The PLD between from and back door speakers is only 3" and 12" between left n right. So that might actually work pretty good for midbass . Run all 3 sets from 80-500 than the audax 500.1.2 and than horns. 

I think I'm going have to try before I cut up the front doors for 8s or 10s


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Lately I've been tinkering with auto Eq on REW.
> 
> It's like it works but sucks at the same time.
> I've got one really good measurement and optimization out of it. Every time I use the target it wants the tune sucks and has up to 20db of cut.
> 
> I copied the biquards into an editor and made some tweaks to it and got it pretty good.
> It doesn't do a super hot job at it tho.
> 
> Maybe I need to manually do my rta work on the PEQ outputs first than do a global auto Eq on the input. Idk seems like it works better that way but than I have to boot the input signal. And I hate boost on anything. - so ..... anyway


Oh you didn't try before? I love it
I don't have big experience on manual eq, and I especially hate spending too much time so I used it a lot.
I think I have a good grab of it now.
Like you it means a lot of cut with a low target, but I don't care with the horns, I can get 0db all the way per channels and I like that (ocd?).
The best results I had, meaning measured response equal to predicted, happened with all setting to max allowed and fine-tuned manually the 1 or 2 auto-boost on dips. 
And it's only with 5 Peqs, if I follow that with the hd and its 10 peqs, I can/should get a perfect!




oabeieo said:


> I really like the pr 170mo up top with the 6nd and low horns so far.
> I think my next thing to try is do 3 sets of 6s and a midrange. So a 6 up top for midbass and a set in front and rear doors for midbass . The PLD between from and back door speakers is only 3" and 12" between left n right. So that might actually work pretty good for midbass . Run all 3 sets from 80-500 than the audax 500.1.2 and than horns.
> 
> I think I'm going have to try before I cut up the front doors for 8s or 10s


Yeah? I couldn't wait and finally ordered some from Madisound to try... but kind of worried to put them higher than the horns with midbass lower.
Not sure I get your layout, can you take a pic, on time?


----------



## LumbermanSVO

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah? I couldn't wait and finally ordered some from Madisound to try... but kind of worried to put them higher than the horns with midbass lower.
> Not sure I get your layout, can you take a pic, on time?


My Audax 7's are above my horns, they are in the upper front of the door, and they blend with the horns quite wonderfully. However, I don't have any midbass drivers yet...


----------



## Elgrosso

LumbermanSVO said:


> My Audax 7's are above my horns, they are in the upper front of the door, and they blend with the horns quite wonderfully. However, I don't have any midbass drivers yet...


Good, and that's about the only place I could put them.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Oh you didn't try before? I love it
> I don't have big experience on manual eq, and I especially hate spending too much time so I used it a lot.
> I think I have a good grab of it now.
> Like you it means a lot of cut with a low target, but I don't care with the horns, I can get 0db all the way per channels and I like that (ocd?).
> The best results I had, meaning measured response equal to predicted, happened with all setting to max allowed and fine-tuned manually the 1 or 2 auto-boost on dips.
> And it's only with 5 Peqs, if I follow that with the hd and its 10 peqs, I can/should get a perfect!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah? I couldn't wait and finally ordered some from Madisound to try... but kind of worried to put them higher than the horns with midbass lower.
> Not sure I get your layout, can you take a pic, on time?



THEy blend just fine , 800hz wavelength is roughly 1.4'. X that by 2 and that's 2.8' 

And a tiny bit of overdelay on the horns (2") and the dash become dominant and horns trail. But still close enough to combine waveform.


----------



## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> My Audax 7's are above my horns, they are in the upper front of the door, and they blend with the horns quite wonderfully. However, I don't have any midbass drivers yet...


Havin got them high in door so woyld be great. A little delay and wavefront bliss.


----------



## oabeieo

So today I came out of the rabbit &#55357;&#56368; hole.

I unhooked the hds and just using the p99.

I'm not entirely sure I want to use the hds now until I get the clarion head. 
The distortion from the AN to di and back is awful . I can dial such a killer sound in mere moments with the p99. Plus I can drive and **** with it simultaneously and that makes a huge difference. 

I miss having 5v going into my focal amps also , they just suck at 1v and sound good with 5v. 

Dev team told me it's possible to do a opamp swap in the minis and get them to 5v. They have 5v going in would have to trace th pcb board and make sure the opamp has a 5v rail. 

Maybe I need to explore this. I might try digging into and learning how to make that mod.


----------



## oabeieo

I'm sure I'll have them hooked back up by tomorrow


----------



## oabeieo

So elgroso I made a quick video for u to see the audax . I called it oabes night time blast session 

It's uploading now on to utube . It will be a few before it up on my 2g router 

The audax I just threw up in my holes and duct tape the snot out of the baskets. It needs an enclosure to get rid of breakup modes. So I figured I don't need the extension below 315 that an enclosure would give me so the duct tape makes it a sealed basket midrange.
From 500 to about 1.6k it does very nice now. Very little breakup at full tilt. I really extra awesome love how the sound is so warm from them. I love how the cone of that driver is so stiff and made out of thick paper. The dryness of the cone in the midrange is nice. I can almost feel the dry paper crisp transients. It's very nice. 

A few years back I had a Pyle sealed back 5" mid that was really nice also, this reminds me of that a lot. (I think they still make that) 

The 500-1k band is filled with comb filtering on the dash, so it's nice having the 4 drivers on the dash so I can separately tune against the comb filtering. I'm tuned for one seat mode right now. Yes back to the old delayd left side and no APF . As much as it f up the recording it sure is nice to have a extremely nailed down center for one seat. 

I need to start my kicks already I must have 2 seat listening


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> So elgroso I made a quick video for u to see the audax . I called it oabes night time blast session
> 
> It's uploading now on to utube . It will be a few before it up on my 2g router
> 
> The audax I just threw up in my holes and duct tape the snot out of the baskets. It needs an enclosure to get rid of breakup modes. So I figured I don't need the extension below 315 that an enclosure would give me so the duct tape makes it a sealed basket midrange.
> From 500 to about 1.6k it does very nice now. Very little breakup at full tilt. I really extra awesome love how the sound is so warm from them. I love how the cone of that driver is so stiff and made out of thick paper. The dryness of the cone in the midrange is nice. I can almost feel the dry paper crisp transients. It's very nice.
> 
> A few years back I had a Pyle sealed back 5" mid that was really nice also, this reminds me of that a lot. (I think they still make that)
> 
> The 500-1k band is filled with comb filtering on the dash, so it's nice having the 4 drivers on the dash so I can separately tune against the comb filtering. I'm tuned for one seat mode right now. Yes back to the old delayd left side and no APF . As much as it f up the recording it sure is nice to have a extremely nailed down center for one seat.
> 
> I need to start my kicks already I must have 2 seat listening


Nice, you know how to sell them 
I just received mine, was a bit surprised by the size!
I don't know why but I think I had a mental picture of them being small and didn't check the numbers.
They appear to be almost as big as the td6! A little larger and less deep, but still a big motor. Won't fit in the doors where I though... but I'll find a place!
They're kind of weirdly sexy with their flat surround


----------



## oabeieo

https://youtu.be/EcRjK7hEtCY


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Nice, you know how to sell them
> I just received mine, was a bit surprised by the size!
> I don't know why but I think I had a mental picture of them being small and didn't check the numbers.
> They appear to be almost as big as the td6! A little larger and less deep, but still a big motor. Won't fit in the doors where I though... but I'll find a place!
> They're kind of weirdly sexy with their flat surround



Oh snap!!! You got them!! Heck yes ! 

Here is mine day I got them 
gif uploader


Keep them cones dry. They don't like to get soggy (literally this time) I had to replace one because I had them in a leaky door . It got damp from a rainy day and was destroyed.
Also. The first mistake I made with mine is I set gain too high. These need BARELY ANY (lol) gain at all and they will scream. 

Anyway dood that's sick you got a set .

That td6 looks a lot lot like a type R alpine


----------



## Elgrosso

Lol the video chat  thx man ok I see now, everything above the horns!
Damn' this phone mic it's crazy ugly, or is it your tune?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Lol the video chat  thx man ok I see now, everything above the horns!
> Damn' this phone mic it's crazy ugly, or is it your tune?


Phone mic . And two 15s with 1200w on each of em . That much air will make any mic sound like poop
Maybe I shoulda turned off subs for that


----------



## oabeieo

So you were going to put them in the jag where the stock 4s go?


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Oh snap!!! You got them!! Heck yes !
> 
> Here is mine day I got them
> gif uploader
> 
> 
> Keep them cones dry. They don't like to get soggy (literally this time) I had to replace one because I had them in a leaky door . It got damp from a rainy day and was destroyed.
> Also. The first mistake I made with mine is I set gain too high. These need BARELY ANY (lol) gain at all and they will scream.
> 
> Anyway dood that's sick you got a set .
> 
> That td6 looks a lot lot like a type R alpine


Ok will do. Have to fix my glass seals anyway, not that it rains a lot here, but they're cooked.
I have free channels on the pioneer, about 50w should be plenty at first and I really like this amp.
Yeah it's cool, I'll try to quickly build a simple box to test them soon.
And since they're already kind of big, I'll make them to fit the TDM too!


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> So you were going to put them in the jag where the stock 4s go?


Stock on dash are 2.5", no I think I'll have to put them high or mid in door above the midbass boxes. This means complete new panels though...
But I'll try first without the panels, after all I drive most of the time without them


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Stock on dash are 2.5", no I think I'll have to put them high or mid in door above the midbass boxes. This means complete new panels though...
> But I'll try first without the panels, after all I drive most of the time without them



I think I want to go back to a three way. 
Beyma 8s and horns and maybe switch subs to w3s or GBs


----------



## oabeieo

Decided to throw a set of 6.5s in doors just to see what would happen.
Needed to use something that would get below 100hz so I could use some dyns or hertz I had sittin. I opted for the hertz because if I blow them I won't care one bit. 








windows screen capture


Over all project was worthless. I only got 1db more 80hz responce. Having arrays didn't do it this time. Time to go back to an 8" with and enclosure.

I'm jealous of Elgrossos boxes. Maybe a 10" woofer in pass footwell playing sub band to 100 will be what I want like mics car. .......hummmmmm


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Over all project was worthless. I only got 1db more 80hz responce. Having arrays didn't do it this time. Time to go back to an 8" with and enclosure.


Good to know, and no good change in nulls etc?



oabeieo said:


> I'm jealous of Elgrossos boxes. Maybe a 10" woofer in pass footwell playing sub band to 100 will be what I want like mics car. .......hummmmmm


Yeah or even 10" in doors? I mean at this point you could also cut and rebuild the whole thing as an enclosure, you should push it 
I would definitely pick my next car based on that, to put stereo sub playing high in front, and horns.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Good to know, and no good change in nulls etc?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah or even 10" in doors? I mean at this point you could also cut and rebuild the whole thing as an enclosure, you should push it
> I would definitely pick my next car based on that, to put stereo sub playing high in front, and horns.


I bought this car specifically because how it's perfect for under dash horns and ended up doing everything possible except door boxes.
10s are too deep and requires too much airspace. I'm pretty confident a good set of kicks will get me where I want to be. I hope


----------



## oabeieo

Hence the uncertainty. I hate 50-100hz it's such a pita 
It was so nice having the tens behind me I had all the midbass you could possibly dream for it was just coming from the wrong location


----------



## oabeieo

Put the other set of 6.5s in. 

Overall it's a complete joke how inadequate a 6.5 is in a door with no enclosure. 

This really tells me a lot about the 6nd430 and how capable that driver is. I have a hd600/4 bridged to them and gained up to full power and they take it. The dyn and the hertz completely **** the bed and sound like total dog poop. I think I'm going copy elgroso and do door boxes. The more I look at that the more I want to do it.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Hence the uncertainty. I hate 50-100hz it's such a pita
> It was so nice having the tens behind me I had all the midbass you could possibly dream for it was just coming from the wrong location


Yeah I can imagine they must have been something.
And what about a flase floor? The cabin is kind of high enough no? Has this been done somewhere? 




oabeieo said:


> Put the other set of 6.5s in.
> 
> Overall it's a complete joke how inadequate a 6.5 is in a door with no enclosure.
> 
> This really tells me a lot about the 6nd430 and how capable that driver is. I have a hd600/4 bridged to them and gained up to full power and they take it. The dyn and the hertz completely **** the bed and sound like total dog poop. I think I'm going copy elgroso and do door boxes. The more I look at that the more I want to do it.


Hahaha **** the bed that sounds fun :laugh: 
But you didn't blow them!
You seem to need a lot more output than me though, go 10!
There must be a thin one somewhere, or cut the external skin to fit the motor


----------



## thehatedguy

I was hoping those 18sound would be on the way out so I could buy them... lol.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> I was hoping those 18sound would be on the way out so I could buy them... lol.


Never ,,,,whoahaaHaaaaahaa ...

I've never had a driver that can literally get the **** beat out of it as bad as these and still play just fine. If it was any other 6 1/2 I would've fried the coils months ago


----------



## captainobvious

Can you post up some pics of the footwell area and what you're up against for kicks? Is an 8" doable? What about wiring harnesses and such in the way that would need to be relocated? How about clearance if you cut the floor and sunk them in there? 

I love the "magic seats" in the rear that fold up. Add some seat rails and you can slide those front seats way back with those rears in the "up" position. I'd be curious what PLD's would be from that spot....more distance to the front should give a nice deep sound. 



-Steve


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> Can you post up some pics of the footwell area and what you're up against for kicks? Is an 8" doable? What about wiring harnesses and such in the way that would need to be relocated? How about clearance if you cut the floor and sunk them in there?
> 
> I love the "magic seats" in the rear that fold up. Add some seat rails and you can slide those front seats way back with those rears in the "up" position. I'd be curious what PLD's would be from that spot....more distance to the front should give a nice deep sound.
> 
> 
> 
> -Steve


Steve,

Wow I didn't even think about doing that to mine. The way the back floor slopes down where the seat rail goes would make it not that horrible of a mod either.

At some point in the build I think that just might be a must do. 


Pics, yeah I'll go take some. It's a lot like a civic in in layout and structure. No fuse box in kick, just a smaller harness to rear on both sides. 
There would be some room to cut down into floors , gas tank under front seats so would be able to cut further than leading edge on front seat. Behind the kicks the metal wall has about 2" of air behind it. 

The whole kick area is pretty small, 8s would be a squeeze and would need to cut down into floor unless it points more up than at you. 6.5s would fit a lot better and custom would turn out nicer, but if I could get an8 down there that would be stellar.

Thanks man yeah I'll go get some pics, it's dark out right now so I'll have to post them in morning but I WILL post some. The horn blocks some of the kick area so that too takes some height space. I'll add some tape measurements in the pic to get a idea. Hopefully I can get started soon, I was thinking get another set of 6nd430s but if the 288H I just ordered will fit I'll go for those. Ultimately want to do StevensAudio 8s . Just waitin for a set come available. 

I'm not afraid to take up room. I could pipe upwards also into a very large cavity above the kick panel for an enclosure that is connected by a 4" pipe. 

I'll post as many pics as can. Thank you! 

-Andy


----------



## captainobvious

You're the man Andy- thanks. This car is on a short list of ones I'll be looking at in the future as a project SQ car for fun.

The fold up seats are a real bonus as I'm sure you can move those front seats back probably close to a foot further 

I've looked at the Toyota Yaris (newer model) and it has a pretty deep dash as well, but fairly shallow/small footwells which would limit room for kicks- would probably have to cut the floor and sink them in that way. 

The Nissan Leaf and the Prius are other considerations but I'm leary about their electrical systems and what I'd be up against.

The Fit seems like a good...fit. 

Glad that there aren't major harnesses and fuse boxes in the kicks- that's a time saver for relocation and fab. Any space under the dash in the upper kick area? In my mazda there's a lot of wiring harnesses and a fuse panel there. Just considering the options. If you can get a larger midbass in there- I would definitely recommend it. Driver depth seems to be the limiting factor in most installs, but not sure what that limiter will be in the Fit. Not sure if you're set on a pro-audio style midbass, but here are a few options:

Shallow(er) options:
Dyn MW172/MW182
JL ZR800
Illusion C8/C10

Pro Audio:
B&C 8BG51
B&C 10NW64

I listed a couple 10" options in case you want to really get cheeky. But they may require dropping them in the floor and at that point, you may want the JBL's.


If I were to do this car, I'd probably be doing dash pods and then modifying the dash to make it much flatter and consistent all the way across (moving the gauges or doing a smaller, simple aftermarket gauge set to allow for the flat dash mod). 

I like that you're taking a no holds barred approach and you aren't afraid to get crazy with it. I'm excited to see what you come up with. 


-Steve





oabeieo said:


> Steve,
> 
> Wow I didn't even think about doing that to mine. The way the back floor slopes down where the seat rail goes would make it not that horrible of a mod either.
> 
> At some point in the build I think that just might be a must do.
> 
> 
> Pics, yeah I'll go take some. It's a lot like a civic in in layout and structure. No fuse box in kick, just a smaller harness to rear on both sides.
> There would be some room to cut down into floors , gas tank under front seats so would be able to cut further than leading edge on front seat. Behind the kicks the metal wall has about 2" of air behind it.
> 
> The whole kick area is pretty small, 8s would be a squeeze and would need to cut down into floor unless it points more up than at you. 6.5s would fit a lot better and custom would turn out nicer, but if I could get an8 down there that would be stellar.
> 
> Thanks man yeah I'll go get some pics, it's dark out right now so I'll have to post them in morning but I WILL post some. The horn blocks some of the kick area so that too takes some height space. I'll add some tape measurements in the pic to get a idea. Hopefully I can get started soon, I was thinking get another set of 6nd430s but if the 288H I just ordered will fit I'll go for those. Ultimately want to do StevensAudio 8s . Just waitin for a set come available.
> 
> I'm not afraid to take up room. I could pipe upwards also into a very large cavity above the kick panel for an enclosure that is connected by a 4" pipe.
> 
> I'll post as many pics as can. Thank you!
> 
> -Andy


----------



## oabeieo

Steve , here's some pics  













image hosting websites


----------



## oabeieo

Thanks, yeah I'll do whatever it takes to get it done and sound good. 

I put the 10s back in under back seat but using a audax instead of the 10g40 , 
I would love to get this kind of midbass up front . 

I have the dyns you mentioned, love them , that's a definite possibility would like to get to 315hz tho , upper dash has a bad null at 315. 

I've been happy with the 6nd430 in the side window pods , they sound good and than I have a the pr170mo up there also and both sets drivers tuned to augment comb filtering. It's working pretty good, 
I definitely would like to get an 8 in the kick and just run a 2way fronts. If too many interferences I'll have to keep a 3 way fronts to wiggle the sound around reflections and comb filtering. 

If I can't fit an 8 I'll go with a second set of 6nd430s . That driver can handle some serious power and doesn't sound spitty at any of the passband. 
I haven't tried the carbon , maybe I need get a set n see what it does and the zr I have a set of those too. I have them installed in my wife's van as rears  maybe a swap if I need to pull them for re-purpose


Yeah the fit isn't a bad car for sq that why I got it , I was starting to get depressed because all of the second-generation ones were getting high miles on them and I couldn't find any clean ones in the soon as I saw this one with 6000 on it I jumped on it because I knew it would be my last chance LOL ,
set up is pretty nice for an SQ car I'm sure I'll change a lot of things throughout the years but it sure is a lot of fun


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks for the pics.

Looks like you'd have to relocate the hood latch popper and definitely lose the dead pedal. More space there though then I would have guessed. The foot wells don't look very deep though which could make things tight. Would be interesting to see how much space is there with the dead pedal and carpet up out of the way. A 10" looks pretty unlikely but an 8 may be doable.


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> Thanks for the pics.
> 
> Looks like you'd have to relocate the hood latch popper and definitely lose the dead pedal. More space there though then I would have guessed. The foot wells don't look very deep though which could make things tight. Would be interesting to see how much space is there with the dead pedal and carpet up out of the way. A 10" looks pretty unlikely but an 8 may be doable.



So when you say cut the floor down you mean cut the floor out in the kick area and sink the speaker a bit down? 

That would be great if I could Do that. Does the corner beading where the frame intersects in kick leading to tire well is that structural? Do you know if that can be cut out completely and a box be pushed into the tire well and floor be feasible? 

I would do that in a heartbeat if it isn't going to make the frame bend or some unwanted frame issues.  

Thanks for your input btw  much appreciated


----------



## Elgrosso

Damn' that's pretty tight! I'll follow your solution because if you can do it, for sure I'll try too.


----------



## captainobvious

I swung by the Honda dealer to check one out in person this afternoon. I was wrong about the space behind the front seats...there is MORE than I thought  With the rear seats in the up position there is a solid 16-20 inches of extra travel that the front seats could move back with extended rails. That's pretty darn significant. Particularly when there is already about 50 inches measured from the dash corners to the headrest in the backmost seat position BEFORE adding rails. You could very easily end up with 65-70 inches distance from headrest to speakers in this car with some rails- damn.

On the kick panel front though, not quite as optimistic. The kicks are fairly shallow and not much space down there. I'm wondering if they could be sunken into the floor pan area, maybe vented to exterior. If not, I still think you could get an 8 in there but it would be tight- and I probably wouldn't advise it if it's a manual transmission due to the clutch pedal. Auto can get away with it though I think. It will take some metal cutting and some magic but could be very sweet. Would be able to tell for sure if I could remove the dead pedal and plastic kick panel and pull up that corner of the carpet to see just what it looks like in there with that stuff out of the way...I didn't want to take too many liberties in the car on the dealer lot to verify more 

When you get some time, try pulling that stuff out of the way and get a couple pics and measurements of those kicks and see what you think.


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> I swung by the Honda dealer to check one out in person this afternoon. I was wrong about the space behind the front seats...there is MORE than I thought  With the rear seats in the up position there is a solid 16-20 inches of extra travel that the front seats could move back with extended rails. That's pretty darn significant. Particularly when there is already about 50 inches measured from the dash corners to the headrest in the backmost seat position BEFORE adding rails. You could very easily end up with 65-70 inches distance from headrest to speakers in this car with some rails- damn.
> 
> On the kick panel front though, not quite as optimistic. The kicks are fairly shallow and not much space down there. I'm wondering if they could be sunken into the floor pan area, maybe vented to exterior. If not, I still think you could get an 8 in there but it would be tight- and I probably wouldn't advise it if it's a manual transmission due to the clutch pedal. Auto can get away with it though I think. It will take some metal cutting and some magic but could be very sweet. Would be able to tell for sure if I could remove the dead pedal and plastic kick panel and pull up that corner of the carpet to see just what it looks like in there with that stuff out of the way...I didn't want to take too many liberties in the car on the dealer lot to verify more
> 
> When you get some time, try pulling that stuff out of the way and get a couple pics and measurements of those kicks and see what you think.


Short story : I'll try  

So when I was hunting for the perfect sq car the fit immediately caught my eye back in 2013, I test drive one and coming from a awd SUV it wasn't quite what I wanted to transition into. After few years I ended up picking one up. After the sound deadening it's a nice little car. Has nice styling,nice gauge cluster, comfortable seats, great gas mileage. Etc..

It's a lot nicer imo than the Prius or the versa and after making it a si with the mods I did I really love this little car. One thing I found when looking for a nice clean low miles fit was for sq layout the 2nd gen (GE8) body is the best one. Has deepest dash and biggest side windows , the farthest distance between end of dash to seat . Also it has a gallon sized space in the dash above each kick for some sort of horn driver or midbass enclosure. The newest fit 15-17s are nice , they have all the capacity as far as any other just have smaller dash depth. 
The 1st gen fits are cool but there all beat up and impossible to find a gem, small side windows but still a good candidate. Overall the 2nd gen is imo the one to get. Plus the exterior styling isn't so square (still kinda cool tho) 

I don't know which gen you looked at but definitely keep it in mind. The newest ones are still a very good car to do a nice build. If your planning a dash fab than I guess it won't matter. 

I also looked at the versa and the Prius the fit is 13" thinner than the Prius and 9" thinner than the versa. That to me made it a no brainer for PLDs and lost energy from other side for a two seat build. 

Overall as much as a joke the fit is compared to a civic or accord it really is a very nice fun car to drive and easy to mod and just setup for sound so well. And every bit as nice as a civic as interior styling goes. 

There are a few things I didn't like about the fit 

1. Would have to do some metal work if wanted to cut out the spare tire well
For structural means.

2. Gas tank under front seats making it impossible to mount stuff under the seat or cut into the floor in the foot area up front. Could cut near kicks tho...


So , anyway I'll be more than happy to pull the foot pedal off and peel back carpet and take some pics . I love the way Erin's car is looking if I can get something like that done I would be thrilled


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah I was looking at a 2016 or 2017 so a 3rd gen. I kind of like the 2nd gen myself as well and was thinking if I somehow convinced the wife to let me get one eventually- that might be the ticket. If it has an even deeper dash, all the better.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Damn' that's pretty tight! I'll follow your solution because if you can do it, for sure I'll try too.


Yeah I've seen kicks lowered down in pics , never thought about doing that. 
I wanna crawl under car and pull the inner fender housing off to see what kind of space can be had. 

I've been frustrated because I haven't been able to figure out how to get a good sized pod down there. This may be very promising. Ohh if I can get about .75 sealed I would be estatic.


----------



## captainobvious

That would give you some good options for sure!
Of course if you can't do a sealed, venting into the frame rails or exterior opens some good options up as well.


----------



## oabeieo

Just ordered two more HD600/4s. 
So I'll have 

HD1200/1 subs
HD600/4 bridged to 2 midbass 
HD 600/4 bridged to 2 more midbass
HD600/4 bridged to 2 midrange
FOCAL FPS 4160 bridged to horns 

I'll either use the focal amp on midbass or horns and vice versa . Have to see what sounds better. Or get take the focal amp out and do another 600/4. 
Or take out one of the 600/4s and put both my focal amps in. 

I have to see what kind of space I will have once I re-do the amp location. 

I can get the system to be loud but I really need 300w to each speaker to have the volume and clarity that I want to be at. 

Nothing like a volume knob that has serious muscle behind it . I also going to incorporate the cap bank. I finally have all the caps and have 2 banks of mini supercaps. About 280F .
Should be enough to jam on keeping the same three xs power 750s


----------



## oabeieo

Just got back from the cd store. 
Drive home was a bit enlightening.
Haven't heard anything true cd quality in over a year. 
I just discovered (but completely forgotten about) why the p99 is a masterpiece.

And I forgot how much better the system sounds. And I have to admit I've been trying to fix dsp issues that were nonexistent, was ****ty Spotify this whole time causing massive loss of depth and clarity in the detail. 

I remember the 20cds for 1 penny thing years ago. I wonder if there's something like that? :/


----------



## oabeieo

Couple pics of the amps again. Been lookin at what kind of space I have to make it work.
I can stack the 600/4s on the other two HDs and maybe make a metal lug that joins the powers together. 


I don't want to stack focal amps. I kinda scared of them getting scratched. The HD amps I figure I can get some double sided strips and stack them . The JL stacking kit has too much gapage. 

I really like the direct mode on the focal amps. Bypassing any input re-buffering or crossovers. It's a noticeable difference and 360w bridged is a bit more than the 300 I'll get from the HD . So at 8ohms I'll gain a Schosche more. 

I committed to the HDs so I guess that's how it'll go. I keep my other focal in the van for now. 










free image hosting


----------



## captainobvious

What I did with my HD's when I had them (since I didn't have the stacking kit and needed to get them in) was to pickup some spacers from HD and use long 1/4-20 bolts to secure them to the piece of wood below. HD and Lowes carry a selection of nylon and aluminum spacers in the screws/hardware section in different heights. You simply mark and drill pilot holes, then install 1/4-20 threaded inserts (also carried at HD/Lowes- you can do T nuts or the screw in type found in the hardware/screw section with the furniture hardware). Get yourself the smallest height spacer size that works for you for between the amps and on the top of the upper amp so the bolt head sits on a surface above the amp and is easy to install. Measure out the length of bolts needed, and go to town 

In my picture, I have higher standoffs/spacers between the amps which are probably 1". You can do something like 1/2"-3/4" and have the amps spaced closer together.








.


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> What I did with my HD's when I had them (since I didn't have the stacking kit and needed to get them in) was to pickup some spacers from HD and use long 1/4-20 bolts to secure them to the piece of wood below. HD and Lowes carry a selection of nylon and aluminum spacers in the screws/hardware section in different heights. You simply mark and drill pilot holes, then install 1/4-20 threaded inserts (also carried at HD/Lowes- you can do T nuts or the screw in type found in the hardware/screw section with the furniture hardware). Get yourself the smallest height spacer size that works for you for between the amps and on the top of the upper amp so the bolt head sits on a surface above the amp and is easy to install. Measure out the length of bolts needed, and go to town
> 
> In my picture, I have higher standoffs/spacers between the amps which are probably 1". You can do something like 1/2"-3/4" and have the amps spaced closer together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Hey that's pretty nifty. I like it. Some t-nuts would per perfect. I think there's about 1/2" of sink with the hex nuts off the screw covers so it would sink down . 

My amp rack is completely hidden so I could get away with what is in your pic too. I just don't want to scratch the amps up if avoidable. So that would work. 
I'm off today, I think I'll do just that and take a stroll down to Home Depot and see what I can find. 

Just curious, what amps you run now? And why did u take out the HDs? 
I'm not 100% certain I want to use all HD amps. But bridged the sound good don't distort and make a lot of power for how small they are. But honestly my other cheap hookup on nice amps would be focal or masconi. I like the focal amps a lot. I have two but would need 2 more.


----------



## thehatedguy

Took out the last couple lines...dunno how much your rep would like posting your cost.


----------



## captainobvious

^ Good catch.


I'm running Brax Matrix now. The JL's served me well though and are great amplifiers, no doubt about that. 

The Brax have always been at the top of my list for amps that I wanted to run one day. Simply beautiful. I was lucky enough to be able to do them.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Took out the last couple lines...dunno how much your rep would like posting your cost.


Lol. True that! My bad. 
Thank you.


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> ^ Good catch.
> 
> 
> I'm running Brax Matrix now. The JL's served me well though and are great amplifiers, no doubt about that.
> 
> The Brax have always been at the top of my list for amps that I wanted to run one day. Simply beautiful. I was lucky enough to be able to do them.



That's beautiful dood. 

Brax. -aah . Those are fine indeed. The focal amp is my poor mans Brax amp. 
I did three Brax amps in a ram. Only time I've ever touched those amps and they were built like a 1970s Sansui home receiver. Beastly. And the internals are so classy. Even the turn on relays are like completely top end and have a elegant high end click sound. 

I see why you migrated now. 
I not 100% but I'm headed that direction at some point. But definitely getting away from class D. I'll rock the HDs till my contract runs up than try something else. The HD amps do just fine tho. There's a **** ton of circuitry to make them do what they do and by the time the output signal leaves the amp it's like a chef presenting a fine dish.( Except the chef is on Hell's Kitchen and only had 2min to scramble it together) but hey, it's delivered right. Pretty chaotic in a D if I understand it right . (Triangle wave modulation....please)


----------



## oabeieo

So I had all the minidsps un-hooked to catch a breath of fresh air and get my barring cleared up on non fir and the p99 by itself. Rocked it like that for two weeks. 

I added back one minidsp for sub and made a linear filter. The deck in inches has 11.4ms total delay (155.89") so that restricted me to a fir filter that's no more than about 10.5ms filter to leave 12" wiggle room for setting TA from deck. 

Adding a 2020tap filter is 10.52ms so I went with that. Set deck to 145.3" and other speakers to 0" respectively. 

That sounded much much better. 

So tonight I added another minidsp on midbass. 
Same thing 2020tap filter 10.52ms and made a Lin phase crossover at 40-500.
And again much better. Much much better. Than added an APF at 260hz on two of the dash mids and the other two dash mids that run off the non-minidsp. A massive amount of fuzz is gone and the soundstage is very precise and articulate now as far is pin pointing detail or instruments. 

Not having a minidsp on mids and highs (500-20k) sounds clean as ever no a2d and back and it's fantastic. 

I think I'm going to make the dash pillars into more of a sealed enclosure. That with another 1200w that's coming on the highs should be pretty sweet.


----------



## captainobvious

oabeieo said:


> ...with another 1200w that's coming on the highs should be pretty sweet.





:laugh:



I like it.


----------



## MKnopfler

It might be easier to put wheels on a Pink Floyd concert... just kidding Andy. I've been looking through this thread at your build log and am amazed at the work you have done. All that power in such a small car. It was game changing when you Demo'd for me back in September, the bass made my skin tingle all over and caused involuntary grinning. Now a system has to make me feel that skin tingle or it needs more work - Lol. Since then you have only gone and made it better. &#55357;&#56883; I can't wait for the next meet up to have another demo.


----------



## oabeieo

MKnopfler said:


> It might be easier to put wheels on a Pink Floyd concert... just kidding Andy. I've been looking through this thread at your build log and am amazed at the work you have done. All that power in such a small car. It was game changing when you Demo'd for me back in September, the bass made my skin tingle all over and caused involuntary grinning. Now a system has to make me feel that skin tingle or it needs more work - Lol. Since then you have only gone and made it better. �� I can't wait for the next meet up to have another demo.


Thanks Jon , 
Yeah that was fun we definitely do another one. 

Can't wait to get back to working on it. The cold weather and holidays we are slammed at work. I think we did almost 100 remote starts this week. 
After being in cars this much I loose all my motivation 

Soon tho . I'll get to finishing things up and we do another meet.


----------



## oabeieo

Here's a lil box I made for a really sick custom jeep today. 
It's actually for a famous linebacker for the denver broncos car. 
Don't want to post his name online with his car associated to it out of respect. I can only imagine you could guess who tho  

Anyway , came out good. Sub hit back seat so had to redo it and sink sub down 

Originally was a 12TW5 now it's a 13TW5v24 because it was 1-1/2" slimmer. 















upload picture


----------



## oabeieo

So I'm getting some gear put together 

Now that I have the 600/4 witch wil do 300w a channel bridged into 8 ohms I can finally bring out my favorite speakers.

The 6NDL38 for example and be able get lotspower

I am selling my beyma 10G40s to a co worker and will get the drc22di with the proceeds 

I am going to giv the upper horns one more shot with the drc


----------



## Elgrosso

Yeaaah, curious to get your feedback on Dirac vs manual.


----------



## oabeieo

Do u know if the free demo works the same as the ddrc version ?


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Do u know if the free demo works the same as the ddrc version ?


It seems to work the same as the ddrc24: https://www.minidsp.com/forum/dirac...-ddrc-24-results-comparable-to-diraclivesuite


----------



## oabeieo

Just downloaded the free trail. I'll have to go analog out of my soundcard into aux on p99
And lug around laptop and tether my phone for music.... I'll kyp how it sounds


----------



## oabeieo

Heres. Vid of the free trail Dirac 

I have a lot of questions it sounds pretty sweet without however it really badly lowered the level...so much so system just doesn't get loud . How will this mean when it comes to the ddrc22di box ? 

https://youtu.be/-oJodjVtE5Y


----------



## Elgrosso

Cool! Ok so I get it no sub.

Is it the target you used before? Pretty flat
Did you keep your usual final dsp settings too? Like I guess all eqed, ta etc

I think the best improvment for me was around Ta, or broader time alignment not only around xo. It just made the stage much cleaner, separated etc.
Sub/midbass was a big deal too, but I could reach this manually, or close.

Isn't it cool that you can adjust the target in 1 sec? 

About the levels, how are your measurements compared to the predicted?
That's where I spend time now, levels. My target is good for me.
Or maybe the live version doesn't allow to adjust the final output?
It's -10db by default on ddrcdi, and depending fo the target I don't need that much cut!


----------



## Elgrosso

Also I noticed some dips in the low end on your predicted. Might be the absence of sub, or the nb of taps?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Cool! Ok so I get it no sub.
> 
> Is it the target you used before? Pretty flat
> Did you keep your usual final dsp settings too? Like I guess all eqed, ta etc
> 
> I think the best improvment for me was around Ta, or broader time alignment not only around xo. It just made the stage much cleaner, separated etc.
> Sub/midbass was a big deal too, but I could reach this manually, or close.
> 
> Isn't it cool that you can adjust the target in 1 sec?
> 
> About the levels, how are your measurements compared to the predicted?
> That's where I spend time now, levels. My target is good for me.
> Or maybe the live version doesn't allow to adjust the final output?
> It's -10db by default on ddrcdi, and depending fo the target I don't need that much cut!



ITs just The trial version that's on a computer so yeah all of my settings are already what they were I am just adding Dirac on top of all of it through the aux. however I have my sound card all the way up and I have the volume all the way up on my radio and it doesn't get very loud so it's cutting a **** load of signal , I placed my target right smack in the middle of the response measured ... basically left it where it thought it wanted to go and ran the program overall sound quality is pretty good, he just took out all my oil


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Cool! Ok so I get it no sub.
> 
> Is it the target you used before? Pretty flat
> Did you keep your usual final dsp settings too? Like I guess all eqed, ta etc
> 
> I think the best improvment for me was around Ta, or broader time alignment not only around xo. It just made the stage much cleaner, separated etc.
> Sub/midbass was a big deal too, but I could reach this manually, or close.
> 
> Isn't it cool that you can adjust the target in 1 sec?
> 
> About the levels, how are your measurements compared to the predicted?
> That's where I spend time now, levels. My target is good for me.
> Or maybe the live version doesn't allow to adjust the final output?
> It's -10db by default on ddrcdi, and depending fo the target I don't need that much cut!



ITs just The trial version that's on a computer so yeah all of my settings are already what they were I am just adding Dirac on top of all of it through the aux. however I have my sound card all the way up and I have the volume all the way up on my radio and it doesn't get very loud so it's cutting a **** load of signal , I placed my target right smack in the middle of the response measured ... basically left it where it thought it wanted to go and ran the program overall sound quality is pretty good, it's just quiet , so does the box version that you have do that also over a digital to digital connection? Can you add digital gain on the digital output to restore lost levels?


----------



## oabeieo

Can you tell it not to boost anything ? Can you set limits on it? I'm pretty sure I lost my volume because it was boosting stuff and probably ran out of digital headroom so lowered the output of everything else so that the boost would not clip problem is I can't get that output back on this version


----------



## oabeieo

Another thing I noticed is it really wants to do a one seat tune. Even if I select sofa it has a primary seating position I'm going to have to play with us to try and get both my seats to image good the way it was without the deer rack


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Can you tell it not to boost anything ? Can you set limits on it? I'm pretty sure I lost my volume because it was boosting stuff and probably ran out of digital headroom so lowered the output of everything else so that the boost would not clip problem is I can't get that output back on this version


I think the only way is to adjust manually each orange points. 
That's clearly missing here, to adjust easily the target level with a slider (apl can).
I hope it's all the **** in between that messes up your chain.
The mic gain step should help, do you have it in this version?
On mine I put the target real low to avoid boost and I still have enough headroom.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Another thing I noticed is it really wants to do a one seat tune. Even if I select sofa it has a primary seating position I'm going to have to play with us to try and get both my seats to image good the way it was without the deer rack


I guess that all depends of the primary sweep for Ta no?
I used sofa and chair for the driver seat > no difference.
I read on forums that the algo doesn't care about chair/sofa, it's just for the user to get the visual for help.
So broad/tiny area, same algo works.
The first one will drive the listening position, all others the correction.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> I guess that all depends of the primary sweep for Ta no?
> I used sofa and chair for the driver seat > no difference.
> I read on forums that the algo doesn't care about chair/sofa, it's just for the user to get the visual for help.
> So broad/tiny area, same algo works.
> The first one will drive the listening position, all others the correction.



Okay that makes sence. I think I saw that on the measurement page. It said the first measurement was the one "the sweet spot" would be based. I'll try doing 1st in center of car and see if it leaves timing out .


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Okay that makes sence. I think I saw that on the measurement page. It said the first measurement was the one "the sweet spot" would be based. I'll try doing 1st in center of car and see if it leaves timing out .


Yep, another cool thing is that we can re-measure any of these points, without touching the rest. Either because one was crappy, or just to play with TA.

But it would be nice if each couple measurement/point in space could be specified in the target screen. So we’d learn a bit more.
We can see them all but no idea which is which now.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yep, another cool thing is that we can re-measure any of these points, without touching the rest. Either because one was crappy, or just to play with TA.
> 
> But it would be nice if each couple measurement/point in space could be specified in the target screen. So we’d learn a bit more.
> We can see them all but no idea which is which now.


So I have been reading about Dirac tons ...
So with the ddrc I can have it only correct parts of the responce?


----------



## Elgrosso

Yeah you can slide the 2 side handles to define the corrected area.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah you can slide the 2 side handles to define the corrected area.


Okay that is fantastic!
So I could have it correct the mids and midbass but not the horns than. Maybe I'm wrong but I want to know I can do It , I don't think maybe I'm wrong but I just want to know. Seems like adding too much delay to horns is a bad idea and it will probably over delay them based on timing and not dispersion pattern. Does it show you how much delay is on each spot on responce? Can you click on a spot on correction and get correction data about what it did. 

Sorry all the questions


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Okay that is fantastic!
> So I could have it correct the mids and midbass but not the horns than. Maybe I'm wrong but I want to know I can do It , I don't think maybe I'm wrong but I just want to know. Seems like adding too much delay to horns is a bad idea and it will probably over delay them based on timing and not dispersion pattern. Does it show you how much delay is on each spot on responce? Can you click on a spot on correction and get correction data about what it did.
> 
> Sorry all the questions


Yeah you can, apparently handles can go anyway. But no idea how it reacts at the end. The prediction just applies to the highlighted area, within limits of the excluded points on the edges.
But yes it seems to add a lot of delay everywhere (see impulse change)
Maybe something you can correct afterward?

But no clic for more, that’s missing yeah. Like showing each curve for each points etc.
I asked them if it’s hidden somewhere in a menu but I doubt it.
Would go kind of against the simplicity in the concept.


----------



## oabeieo

Mmmmmm maybe a thread starter ....


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Mmmmmm maybe a thread starter ....


Special Dirac?
But yeah pretty sure the mini-team doesn't have big control on this soft.


----------



## oabeieo

Just got my backup cam. 
Went with the Kenwood cmos320 it has4 different viewing angles one straight down which is kinda sweet .


----------



## oabeieo

Well,
I just dropped the hammer on perfect measurements


Took down pic had privet info


----------



## oabeieo

Bouyah ! I just can't install the clairion w/o it.
If I'm going digital it needs to have a dam good reason


----------



## Onyx1136

Might wanna edit that picture so your personal info isn't available to everyone on the internets.


----------



## captainobvious

Does the DDRC-88 not do what the 22 does but with enough channels for your entire system? Why the 2 channel version? 

Is this essentially an advanced "auto tuning" dsp which makes all of the TA and FR corrections to match to a user input response curve?

I guess I'm confused as to how this will get you to where you want to be if it only corrects for two channels in a system with 7 speakers?


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> Does the DDRC-88 not do what the 22 does but with enough channels for your entire system? Why the 2 channel version?
> 
> Is this essentially an advanced "auto tuning" dsp which makes all of the TA and FR corrections to match to a user input response curve?
> 
> I guess I'm confused as to how this will get you to where you want to be if it only corrects for two channels in a system with 7 speakers?


The da 8 is digital in analog out 8ch out with 6144 taps spread across 8ch 
And has Dirac algo for 8ch 

The 22d is digital in digital out 2ch 6144tap convolution engine 
That runs the 2ch version of Dirac 


In my case I go optical in and out of the 22d. 

But yeah A guy do you and takes nine measurements each measurement has 6 to 8 sweeps , and then it corrects the IR , and oh boy does it do a amazing job at doing that talk about perfect impulse response . But yeah of course it does your frequency phase and timing all in one pop as well in the end result is whatever you want to be with perfect phase it's actually pretty damn cool I've been playing with it on the free trial version.

It's a lot like the APL one where it measures the power response , and makes changes based on acoustical power which is really the only way you really truly can correct for reflection issues or should I say comb-filters 

It's definitely worth the $799 they ask and they definitely lock down their prices LOL I have tried to find a way cheaper and there isn't 

The opendrc22d is the exact same unit except for it does not have Duiac live so you would have to use an open DRC like accorite which is a lot like Dirac but not quite as good from what I can tell by reading about them and by playing with both of their sample programs


----------



## Elgrosso

I wanted the 88 too at first, but after more reading it doesn't look to be the right solution for car. Less taps, no digit in, and it's a big ass with more power requirements.
Yes it manages 8 ch, but not 8 drivers, it is really designed to manage a 5/7.1 setup.
Well it could but you would have to define yourself all targets per driver. And who knows how Dirac will manage time coherence then in a 3 way then?


----------



## captainobvious

Think I'll have to do some more reading on it as I'm still not 100% clear on what the piece is actually doing. If it's a digital in and out- what are you feeding the corrected signal into? And if it is only 2 channel, then what are you doing about corrections for the other channels of your system? If you had 7-8 speakers in the car, you'd need 4 of these...right?

I'm currently using a multi-mic array along with SysTune for doing my live measurements and then corrections with DSP (currently an Arc PS8 but switching over to the DSP Pro mkII with the all pass filters). I can then see what's happening with phase live with the SysTune software as I make adjustments to correct it with DSP.


----------



## Elgrosso

Oh yeah it’s only room correction so you’d still need a dsp behind to manage xo, ta etc


----------



## captainobvious

See that's what I'm not getting. DSP is correcting for the room as well. The Dirac looks like an advanced "auto-tune" dsp type of device, but only correcting 2 channels with the one that oabeieo is using. So what I'm trying to understand is how is this beneficial for room correction as a 2 channel device feeding an 8 channel+ dsp? If you're doing room correction, you're only doing it for 2 channels (or 2 speakers). I would understand using this if it were an 8 channel device or if you were using enough of these to tackle all speakers in the vehicle. Maybe I'm missing something.


----------



## Elgrosso

captainobvious said:


> See that's what I'm not getting. DSP is correcting for the room as well. The Dirac looks like an advanced "auto-tune" dsp type of device, but only correcting 2 channels with the one that oabeieo is using. So what I'm trying to understand is how is this beneficial for room correction as a 2 channel device feeding an 8 channel+ dsp? If you're doing room correction, you're only doing it for 2 channels (or 2 speakers). I would understand using this if it were an 8 channel device or if you were using enough of these to tackle all speakers in the vehicle. Maybe I'm missing something.


Well we both have a 2.1 system, Obaeieo has more drivers since 3 way with 2 subs sometime I think when I have only midbass/horns & sub, but it's the same.
So the Dirac unit (or DDRC/HD if manual route) only has to manage L/R channels (including sub). It "sees" only 2 channels even if we have 2,3,4 etc drivers behind either passively or actively tuned.
Even with just an ok starting point on XO, TA and levels, it will fix timing nicely and make everything more coherent.

The 88 would be useful only if we had cc, sides and rears.
But in that case the number of taps distributed to each channel will be more limited than just the 22. And I’m not sure sides and rears need this kind of fix since they’re playing such a limited signal (well they do need it in home teather).
The thing I don't know is if the 88 can manage XO directly: 1 channel > 1 driver.
I don't think so but maybe.
And even if it does, it’s probably not needed.

Sure a regular dsp might be able correct for the room too, depending of your ability and its features, but Dirac is just plain easy and efficient at this, it’s like a super ms-8 with custom targets.
Also not so many dsp have FIR capabilities.


----------



## oabeieo

Yeah that's exactly right it corrects everything in the impulse response including timing phase and frequency response so your DSP after it will do your crossovers however it will also make a phase linear system in the magnitude response with your are all pass filter's , you really won't need them with this because it corrects phase already however I still see a genuine value in using all pass in conjunction with it , just for the days you don't want to use it and want to do good old-fashioned tuning or whatever just for flexibility ,

I'm going to have three mini DSP 2x4HDs using optical splitters and I will linearize crossovers with rephase which is an open source FIR maker to take the strain off of the DDRC22d which will allow which to use its coefficients in places that otherwise it wouldn't have had the processing power like comb filtering , I anticipate it's going to be pretty dang sweet by playing with a trial version ...

I really hate self tune things . Quite passionately in fact I can always dial in a better curve in a better sound than anything automatic but this thing honest to god does a really amazing job and actually does way better than a person can do it's like REWs autoeq on meth .. and actually makes it sound good comparatively speaking I haven't had the best of luck with roomieQ


----------



## oabeieo

I think I just read the entire internet : my eyeball hurt now .

I'm 100% ready for the install .

List of things I'm installing

Nx706
Ddrc22di 
2-optical splitters 
3 minidsp 2x4HDs 
Sat tuner 
Backup cam
2 more HD 600/4s 

Stuff I'm uninstalling 
P99
Rcas 

Can't wait .....


----------



## captainobvious

So the device is basically taking the left channel and right channel and trying to correct. The problem here is that when you have multiple drivers making up the left and right channels, and those drivers on each channel are in different locations (and requiring different corrections for time,phase and frequency response), the device has no ability to adjust those separately. So essentially, you are making FR adjustments, time and phase adjustments for the entire set of left or right drivers combined. Which means they must already be corrected by your multi-channel DSP anyway. So then it would seem that this device is then only trying to do a smart "auto-tune" but with less capability to correct the entire system.

My point is, if you have to go through the trouble of time/phase aligning the drivers, correcting for amplitude differences and setting crossovers on the multi-channel dsp, then why bother with the Dirac piece in the first place? At that point, it's not doing much to correct the entire system outside of left channel vs right channel EQ...no?


BTW- does it look like you're able to get an 8" driver size in those kicks? Or is there ground clearance enough if they were done in the floor of the footwells? Still thinking about grabbing one of these cars used and playing with it.


----------



## captainobvious

Elgrosso said:


> Well we both have a 2.1 system, Obaeieo has more drivers since 3 way with 2 subs sometime I think when I have only midbass/horns & sub, but it's the same.
> So the Dirac unit (or DDRC/HD if manual route) only has to manage L/R channels (including sub). It "sees" only 2 channels even if we have 2,3,4 etc drivers behind either passively or actively tuned.
> *Even with just an ok starting point on XO, TA and levels, it will fix timing nicely and make everything more coherent.*


But it can't fix timing. It can't change the relationship between the drivers making up the left channel or the drivers making up the right channel. It can only delay the entire left side or right side relative to each other. It can't change the time delay or phase of individual drivers making up a channel. It can't change the crossovers, slopes or gain of individual drivers making up the left or right channel. It can't separately EQ drivers making up a channel.

That's why I was saying this would be powerful if it were an 8 channel version, because with that, you'd have the ability to allow the system to measure each driver independently and correct for each one. As it stands, you still have to do all of the really important corrections yourself with a separate DSP in the chain after this.


----------



## bertholomey

Sub'd for updates to this build.


----------



## Elgrosso

captainobvious said:


> But it can't fix timing. It can't change the relationship between the drivers making up the left channel or the drivers making up the right channel. It can only delay the entire left side or right side relative to each other. It can't change the time delay or phase of individual drivers making up a channel. It can't change the crossovers, slopes or gain of individual drivers making up the left or right channel. It can't separately EQ drivers making up a channel.
> 
> That's why I was saying this would be powerful if it were an 8 channel version, because with that, you'd have the ability to allow the system to measure each driver independently and correct for each one. As it stands, you still have to do all of the really important corrections yourself with a separate DSP in the chain after this.


Ok then my comparison to a super ms-8 was wrong I agree, it's the combo dsp+dirac (or apl) that would be equivalent to a super ms8 on meth 

But anyway I think I see your point, but you're stretching it here, or you're asking a lot.
What you want would be an APL3, with one driver per channel for a 3 way.
Honestly it must be a nightmare to tune. And for me it's not necessary.
(I don't think any car or non pro dsp can do what you explained, is there one?)

So these fir units will fix timing for L/R independantly (multiple sweeps per channel). It cannot detect which driver is actually playing, the woofer, the mid or the tweeter ok.
But any issue here around the crossover should have been fixed manually before, with the final dsp. Then the final filter would apply mostly to each driver bandpasses. But they don't need to be perfect to get great results with dirac/apl.
Of course a big phase problems at xo won't be fixed, as any room mode etc, that's an install/basic tuning job.

Using advanced fir filter per driver is out of my ability. Oba can do it though.
But I suspect that it's really reaching the limit of potential improvments/effort needed ratio (How is this called in english?). Plus, in all case you'd probably still need a global one, to be sure everything is right per channel. Nightmare...

So my point is, 2 ch room correction,easy to use and efficient, is enough for me.
There are already so many variables in this hobby to play with (I prefer tinkering with hardware than software).


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I think I just read the entire internet : my eyeball hurt now .
> 
> I'm 100% ready for the install .
> 
> List of things I'm installing
> 
> Nx706
> Ddrc22di
> 2-optical splitters
> 3 minidsp 2x4HDs
> Sat tuner
> Backup cam
> 2 more HD 600/4s
> 
> Stuff I'm uninstalling
> P99
> Rcas
> 
> Can't wait .....


So man did you find good solutions for the optical splitter, something as stable as spdif? On the mini forum some told me they had some delay issues.
And for your amps, you'll stack them? How many do you have now? 
I kind of want 2 more too, just tomsee if the bmx can use more power.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> So man did you find good solutions for the optical splitter, something as stable as spdif? On the mini forum some told me they had some delay issues.
> And for your amps, you'll stack them? How many do you have now?
> I kind of want 2 more too, just tomsee if the bmx can use more power.


Yes I did !

So on eBay there's powered splitters , the powered ones act like a repeater so they'll sync , 

A non powered splitter won't sync so there could be a few samples off , 1-2 samples different is nil and nothing I would be too worried about. 

But I still get the powered ones 

I'll have 3hd 600/4s and a FPS 4160 (Basicly a class ab 120x4) bridged is 320x2 
So I'll use the focal bridged on midbass because damping is so much better , 
Than a 600/4 bridged on 6.5s and a 600/4 bridged on horns and a 600/4 bridged on a second set of midbass for the rear and the 1200/1 on the b&c sub

I think I have the sundowns sold guy coming demo it tomorrow 
Than I'll order the b&c


----------



## oabeieo

Didn't sell em. Guy no showed ....I'll have to try pimpn them a lil harder 


Yesterday I couldn't tell if this guy was condescending or Not. 
Sometimes it's just hard to tell. I just about went the f$&! off and restrained myself.
Kinda glad I did ,. He was being dick-ish to my bud for absolutely no reason besides he thinks his system is the **** and he's too cool to tune his own gear . 

Maybe I just need be more forgiving of humanity. I just can't stands jerks lol


----------



## captainobvious

Elgrosso said:


> Ok then my comparison to a super ms-8 was wrong I agree, it's the combo dsp+dirac (or apl) that would be equivalent to a super ms8 on meth
> 
> *But anyway I think I see your point, but you're stretching it here, or you're asking a lot.
> What you want would be an APL3, with one driver per channel for a 3 way.
> Honestly it must be a nightmare to tune. And for me it's not necessary.
> (I don't think any car or non pro dsp can do what you explained, is there one?)*
> 
> So these fir units will fix timing for L/R independantly (multiple sweeps per channel). It cannot detect which driver is actually playing, the woofer, the mid or the tweeter ok.
> But any issue here around the crossover should have been fixed manually before, with the final dsp. Then the final filter would apply mostly to each driver bandpasses. But they don't need to be perfect to get great results with dirac/apl.
> Of course a big phase problems at xo won't be fixed, as any room mode etc, that's an install/basic tuning job.
> 
> Using advanced fir filter per driver is out of my ability. Oba can do it though.
> But I suspect that it's really reaching the limit of potential improvments/effort needed ratio (How is this called in english?). Plus, in all case you'd probably still need a global one, to be sure everything is right per channel. Nightmare...
> 
> So my point is, 2 ch room correction,easy to use and efficient, is enough for me.
> There are already so many variables in this hobby to play with (I prefer tinkering with hardware than software).



Gotcha. Yeah and hopefully you didn't mind me taking your build slightly off topic with that oabeieo but I wanted to make sure that you guys weren't overlooking something and expecting or perhaps misunderstanding what the Dirac device would do. Also wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly  

No Elgrosso, I'm also not aware of any device that will do what you were saying for a 7+ channel setup currently. I guess the 8 channel version of this would but it is limited on taps, right?

Part of my point was this: This device looks like a really cool solution if multi-channel, but leaves the user needing to do much of the critical "meat" of the tuning in the system on their own anyway via a multi-channel DSP (If they are doing an active system).


Looking forward to more updates 

Cheers


----------



## oabeieo

My build is one giant off topic chat! I actually prefer it that way 
And some fun build log stuff too but feel free. In no way am I worried about off topic or just chat that's the fun part


----------



## oabeieo

Captain obvious ,

I looked pretty hard at the 8ch version as a single dsp for everything and it using a second dsp, yeah it's taps are spread out however once frequencies start to rise taps number becomes less and less an issue as far as getting a good correction. Up above 1k one could get a good correction with less than 100taps at 96k and 50 taps at 44/48k. So it really isn't that bad. If you had an 8way and 6-7 of the channels are crossed above 80 it shouldn't be an issue. Subbass needs a lot of taps because it has a longer period. You could use 4000t on sub and 2000 on everything else and be just fine. 

If you use a ported box it's a bit more taps, sealed or ib it's not bad at all and excess GD isn't so much a issue . 

Imho I don't really see any need for more than about 6000 coefficients for any system and used sparingly can get away with as low as4000 at 96k

From what I read the 8ch unit is pretty nice


----------



## jdsoldger

Watching this with interest. Cool build so far. I bought myself a 2011 Fit brand new and have loved it so far. Eventual plan is to do some dash pods way out in the corners and see how that does.


----------



## oabeieo

jdsoldger said:


> Watching this with interest. Cool build so far. I bought myself a 2011 Fit brand new and have loved it so far. Eventual plan is to do some dash pods way out in the corners and see how that does.


Nice! A Fellow GE8 owner 
Have u been on fit forums ? 

Yeah it really is a good car for dash speakers .
Big ole cancellation at 315 tho so a door midbass or kick is needed but I'm super happy w mine .


----------



## jdsoldger

oabeieo said:


> Nice! A Fellow GE8 owner
> Have u been on fit forums ?
> 
> Yeah it really is a good car for dash speakers .
> Big ole cancellation at 315 tho so a door midbass or kick is needed but I'm super happy w mine .


I hang out on Fit Freak sometimes as x_25, but don't post much anymore.

Good to know about the cancellation at 315. I was planning on crossing over at 300, I will bump that up to 350 or 400. I have also noticed a cancellation around 70hz in mine, no matter where I put the subwoofer.

I got halfway through my install and then bought a Miata that has been eating up all my time and play budget, but I have all the parts for my planned install now. Just need to get time and learn to fiberglass....


----------



## oabeieo

jdsoldger said:


> I hang out on Fit Freak sometimes as x_25, but don't post much anymore.
> 
> Good to know about the cancellation at 315. I was planning on crossing over at 300, I will bump that up to 350 or 400.
> 
> I got halfway through my install and then bought a Miata that has been eating up all my time and play budget, but I have all the parts for my planned install now. Just need to get time and learn to fiberglass....


Nice! 
Check out car audio fabricators on you tube. Very well put together


----------



## Elgrosso

captainobvious said:


> Gotcha. Yeah and hopefully you didn't mind me taking your build slightly off topic with that oabeieo but I wanted to make sure that you guys weren't overlooking something and expecting or perhaps misunderstanding what the Dirac device would do. Also wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly
> 
> No Elgrosso, I'm also not aware of any device that will do what you were saying for a 7+ channel setup currently. I guess the 8 channel version of this would but it is limited on taps, right?
> 
> Part of my point was this: This device looks like a really cool solution if multi-channel, but leaves the user needing to do much of the critical "meat" of the tuning in the system on their own anyway via a multi-channel DSP (If they are doing an active system).
> 
> 
> Looking forward to more updates
> 
> Cheers


Yep I agree, it needs some work/knowledge at first, not like ms8. (Althougth ms8 really shines with knowledge too). 
But Apl/dirac will bring a good system to another level really.
For the 8ch I'm not sure it can be that good, other than the taps stuff, it's really not designed for a 3 way + sub, but for 7.1.
Sure it must be possible to dedicate each channel to one driver, and adjust all targets manually. A lot of work! (7x9 sweeps...)
But final timing/coherence per channel, the big advantage of these units, would still have to be done by hand since there is no automatic tool in the software for that.


----------



## oabeieo

Hopefully with the 18,476 taps I'll have I be able to make a decent correction 

Just got the replacement 2x4HD that was bad. So I have 4 working units again, 
This install I'll only use three tho because I've grown quite fond of the shop system with one installed . 
2048 x 6 + 6144 = a lot of tuning lol 

Anyhoo , 
So I'll use one mini strictly for the sub and get most of them the correction for it I'll make a liner phase crossover for it.
Than I'll use another one for midbass and make a liner phase bandpass crossover 
Than use one for mid and horn. I'll be able to not only make linear phase crossovers but start some of the correction for comb filtering. 
Than I'll use the Dirac to finish what's left.
It should see a pretty much linear phase responce at that point and hopefully its optimization will have a huge part of its work done and can focus its coefficients on the detail problem areas instead of using up all the coefficients on sub correction.

The cool thing is with linear phase crossovers instead of using a linearized crossover and Dirac I shouldn't have to be as critical in my fir building because it will fix everything else. 
That way I can just focus on the easier minimum phase problems.

I'm excited to see if I can make a Two seat tune with it and take measurements in middle of car , than after its correction make my own Two seat phase adjustment after it. Being the time domain stuff for left and right separately should be perfect , meaning time differences between drivers for just left or just right should be corrected it should make it easier to make a textbook APF in fir "better stereophony" 

Sounds like another deep rabbit hole but it's really not. It should be what I've been doing but just better. 

Can't wait to experiment and test this. 

Install day approaches.


----------



## oabeieo

Pretty interesting video here 

It's the CEO of DIrac , a Sweden and a vamp , 

Anyway this video he explains exactly what it does , 
I like knowing what **** does I guess 

https://youtu.be/2zEKoJAKFbM


----------



## oabeieo

And in goes the clairion 










adult image host


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## oabeieo

Got everything set up.

Just waiting on the Dirac to show up.
And it's power supply. 

Than I'm going start finishing dash fab and get it all done before summer


----------



## oabeieo

Oh ****! 
screencast


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## oabeieo

Waiting on Dirac to upload 9 measurements 
This is taking a long time ....

I wonder if the guy who runs Dirac is on the other end in manually makes correction filters 

This **** takes some time geewhiz of been waiting 35 minutes now and it's only processed for measurements 








image hosting services


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## alachua

Not sure if you need it, but I remember it from WAAAAYYYYY back in the day (when the C90/xdp4000 was new!), so here is some info on a DIY optical splitter.

http://www.matronics.com/4kcontrol/#FiberOpticCombinerSplitter


----------



## oabeieo

alachua said:


> Not sure if you need it, but I remember it from WAAAAYYYYY back in the day (when the C90/xdp4000 was new!), so here is some info on a DIY optical splitter.
> 
> 4kControl - Control Utility for the Sony XDP-4000X Digital Preamplifier - By Matronics


Thanks buddy  I'll check it out right now


----------



## oabeieo

Will have taken measurements three times now and it keeps freezing it takes all nine measurements and then takes like 30 minutes and then it freezes


----------



## Elgrosso

Do you have wifi on? It needs to be connected to create and activate the filters (copyright thing).


----------



## captainobvious

Yup, I'll bet that's it.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Do you have wifi on? It needs to be connected to create and activate the filters (copyright thing).


Elgroso I need your help

Yes I have wifi , it connects to the ddrc plug in , 
I finally got it to the point where I can see the measurements 
When I hit optimize it gives me a error 

Any ideas 



gif uploader

It's really frustrating, I tryed my wife laptop and same thing 
(Identical laptop)


----------



## capea4

Dirac is awesome and I've used it on several manufactures. Make sure your code is still good, if you call them they can talk you through it. Never used the mini dsp but have with emotiva, datasat and audio control.


----------



## capea4

Each of the measurement files is sent to Dirac, and that's where the calcs are done. I think your trouble is your code. The code is given by dirac to allow communications with their system. Seems like the code is wrong or being rejected.


----------



## capea4

From my armchair of course


----------



## oabeieo

capea4 said:


> Each of the measurement files is sent to Dirac, and that's where the calcs are done. I think your trouble is your code. The code is given by dirac to allow communications with their system. Seems like the code is wrong or being rejected.


 The license automatically is embedded in the unit itself ,
I can connect find to the DD RC plug-in I already retrieved the activation key and activated it just fine 


I think it's c++ going haywire . 
IDK tho ugh so frustrating


----------



## capea4

I made the mistake of doing a emotiva xmc1. One of the times I set it up the code flaked out and I had to call Dirac. Tech was super helpful and reset the code in their system to fix it. I only bring it up cause it seems the system can act cunty.....is that word bad?


----------



## oabeieo

capea4 said:


> I made the mistake of doing a emotiva xmc1. One of the times I set it up the code flaked out and I had to call Dirac. Tech was super helpful and reset the code in their system to fix it. I only bring it up cause it seems the system can act cunty.....is that word bad?


Oh for reals , they have a tech support number do you happen to know what that might be by any chance , :hoping:


----------



## oabeieo

Elgroso 

Can you take a picture of your add remove programs list on your pc 
So I can see what visual studios you have installed ? And what exponents of visual studio you have installed pretty please


----------



## oabeieo

Disregard LOL grosso

I just reformatted my hard drive on my computer and reinstall windows I think that this is going to work now I'm in the middle of it it's done to processed measurements it took all nine except for said My sub was clipping I had to have it turn way way way down


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Disregard LOL grosso
> 
> I just reformatted my hard drive on my computer and reinstall windows I think that this is going to work now I'm in the middle of it it's done to processed measurements it took all nine except for said My sub was clipping I had to have it turn way way way down


Rhaa sorry man I’m still out so can’t try much, but I'm on mac so won't be a big help.
I had to install another plugin (not visual studio) before the ddrc one, I remember it was not super clear but it worked.

Formatting and restarting everything, code activation included is probably a good idea, even if your issue appears before anything is sent to dirac.

But here’s what I can say:
- when I work *without* wifi and *without* ddrc connected (just tried again), I can still play with targets, hit optimize and create filters. So I guess nothing is sent to Dirac at this point.
But without the ddrc the 6th tab is missing obviously, and I can;t upload anything.
- When I tried *without* wifi but ddrc *connected* (few weeks ago), same I could create filters, but got a popup at the end of the process (5/10sec) saying I could not upload them to the ddrc unit without license check. And all existing filters in the unit were deactivated in the same time.
So I guess only at the final step the license is checked.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Rhaa sorry man I’m still out so can’t try much, but I'm on mac so won't be a big help.
> I had to install another plugin (not visual studio) before the ddrc one, I remember it was not super clear but it worked.
> 
> Formatting and restarting everything, code activation included is probably a good idea, even if your issue appears before anything is sent to dirac.
> 
> But here’s what I can say:
> - when I work *without* wifi and *without* ddrc connected (just tried again), I can still play with targets, hit optimize and create filters. So I guess nothing is sent to Dirac at this point.
> But without the ddrc the 6th tab is missing obviously, and I can;t upload anything.
> - When I tried *without* wifi but ddrc *connected* (few weeks ago), same I could create filters, but got a popup at the end of the process (5/10sec) saying I could not upload them to the ddrc unit without license check. And all existing filters in the unit were deactivated in the same time.
> So I guess only at the final step the license is checked.



Full reformat did nothing same error .

Ugh this is so so sooooo annoying 

Mac ? 
Oh yeah forgot u did say u were leaving. 
Snap ....
Well hopefully I'll figure it out


----------



## oabeieo

Bought a new laptop with win10 on it .
Will be here tomorrow 

Meanwhile I installed the 12vto5v buck converter and got the third mini installed , so now have 4dsps (I'm cray cray) also got the active 1x3 optical splitter 








photo hosting


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## oabeieo

The buck converter didn't work so good on Dirac had some noise (even tho it's just a active pass through for now) so I made a voltage divider and much better. The buck works good on splitter tho so I kept it. 


Can't wait till I get it working. Sucks having it installed and powered on with no use to it.
Just ordered a USB hub with on/off switches to be able turn off dsps for tuning. Want to try and get a USB to BT device . That would make tuning a breeze .


----------



## sinister-kustoms

Holy ****. Props to you man for your patience and dedication! I'm a K.I.S.S guy, so that much research and running that many links in a chain is wayyyy beyond my attention span and patience level! :laugh:


----------



## oabeieo

It's finally working . New computer worked 

I got some level setting to do lol 












adult image hosting


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## oabeieo

Got gains set on in/s outs and amps ....

Impulse is clean now. The sound.......this this is pretty dope.

I moved the horns back up top to take a try and it's good. It takes a good song I know really well to hear what it's doing. It just sounds like really good music , so it's kinda hard to listen in between and hear how it changes the speakers behavior. Normally I can find something wrong with the sound and pin point the problem to either a combfilter or amplitude or phase but now I can't really hear any problems except that my dash pods are too thin and need to be finished and that kind of stuff. .

I would definitely recommend it to anyone.


----------



## captainobvious

Pretty cool. Imagine what it could do with 8 independent channels and all that processing for a full active system


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> Pretty cool. Imagine what it could do with 8 independent channels and all that processing for a full active system


Yeah I thought about that approach also, I chose this way because I get to be pretty handy with rephase FIR maker and so I do all my crossovers in FIR after the Dirac and let the Dirac to all the correction.

I've noticed that it's betteR to have the correction done in one filter shared out to all the drivers (for 2ch) Keeping harmonic structure in tact . 
However the 8ch version actually does something pretty cool, it uses all the speakers and changes behavior on different speakers to reinforce others. 

I saw a pretty good video on it where Matthies Johansson (sp?) talks about it . It's like adding bass traps but better , sorta like a big active cardioid but better . 

I want to know more about that unit , if it's algo is meant for 7.1/6.2 or whatever you want. If it's for whatever you want that just might be the best answer. I didn't expect it to make this big of a difference. 

It's like when I spend hours and hours tuning, overall spectral balance I can get it to sound pretty good . But this thing just changes Speakers behavior in ways that I'm just not good enough at. There are guys on the DIY forms that use just rephase alone and can get pretty damn perfect impulses and room correction done manually, i'm good enough with rephase to know how to work it , and experienced enough with it to know that it takes a good year of tuning it to get to that point , where the Dirac can do what Some might think is a better job in a matter of a few minutes.

Overall I'm really glad I chose the Dirac vs. APL1 . It does exactly what I wanted it to.     : I give it 4 1/2 Smileys for sure


----------



## oabeieo

Next I'm going to finish my pillars ...
I think I'm going to do little enclosures Behind the 6 1/2


----------



## oabeieo

Well I finally hotbed a good tune w Dirac 

Had to lower the level on the correction output to under 0db 
Than had to boost the input on mini by about 3db 
Still no where near 0dbfs 

It's remarkable how well it turns a combfilter into the sound. 
Where I would hear a reflection I now hear ambience in the recording 
And the center is so nailed down it's silly.

Horns up too work now pretty dam good .


----------



## oabeieo

It tryed getting it to sound as good as possible before correction and tryed just a good gain structure that would compliment DSP and no eq or TA and let it do its thing. That didn't sound as good so , 

It sounds a lot bettter if I do a solid pre tune first than let it run. In my pre tune I did nothing with nulls and cut down big peaks in horns. I also used some high Q cuts at 200-400-800 because that's the shape of the comb in this car , I only cut the comb peaks by half way and let Dirac do the rest , the null at 325 is caused by the room and is midpoint between a comb so 300hz is going to require me to get some sort of enclosure on the midbass to get the addded gain and transients . Everything is at the highest level of the deepest null . So the system doesn't get super loud , but after the correction the null at least sounds good now. 

So next I need work on midbass a bit and try to reinforce 300 a bit more
This little black box is pretty powerful.....


----------



## oabeieo

Thinking of a few ways to make the pillars play more on axis , 
I think I'm going to stick to boxes and use these and add a kick panel 6.5 and have one play also ....

Definitely something kick panel ish is an order 

free image uploader


----------



## Elgrosso

Yeah you finally got it! i'm glad
Seems you have similar experience with pre-tune too (better with a good base).
Awesome no?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah you finally got it! i'm glad
> Seems you have similar experience with pre-tune too (better with a good base).
> Awesome no?


Yes totally awesome. 

Now I have to get the mids in boxes. I can tell that hole I'm fighting at 300
Is causing a lot of impact to be missing mostly snare or attack 
Dirac still corrected the amplitude problem and did it in a way that doesn't cause clipping or the typical over boost sound when you try to boost into a null. It still gets very loud and clean.

So now that I'm finally finally happy with the sound minus a very easy to fix install issue I can get the custom work on the dash finished and button up.

I love the way chair sounds however it forced me to make it a one seat tune. 
I will for sure use that for daily driving 
For when I have a passenger I use sofa tune and first measurement I put in middle of car so it doesn't correct timing but than take measurements just like it shows for sofa across the front seats , than inter HDs I have rephase setup for my Two seat tune that I already am using with my FIR based APFs and Dirac did a beautiful job at retaining my Two seat tune and in fact it made it even better.

What's crazy is there's not a whole lot of difference between the two. It's staging and imaging in both seats is dead on balls perfect as far as placement goes. I'm really happy with how that part worked out. Both seats have a solid center. 
Without Dirac the center would loose coherency below 400hz and I had to just diffuse 100-400hz so it wouldn't pull the image from either seat. With Dirac it's stable down to 250hz which allows deep male vocals to be perfectly center on both sides . Once I got that right it's weird because I also got gobs and gobs of ambiance on both sides now as well which was largely muffled or eaten up by glass reflections 

It's weird I don't hear left or right as much as I can hear combfiltering now. Once I learned how to hear combfiltering it made me such a better tuner. 
It seems all I would care about was getting the center to be center before and calling it good after that because I couldn't get width or depth right so I always picked center out of my favorite thing to overcome because when I would tune for the other one would go away and if I compermised width, depth and center were all so mediocre that I couldn't settle. Now I think I nailed it . Well at least as best as one can for in car with dash mounted speakers. And I bet it's better than most kick panel installs with mediocre tuners behind the tune. 

Now I know I have to make kick tho for midbass . It will really make things from 100-400 have impact and work on both sides . So that and boxes for dash mids are up next


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah you finally got it! i'm glad
> Seems you have similar experience with pre-tune too (better with a good base).
> Awesome no?





Elgrosso said:


> Yeah you finally got it! i'm glad
> Seems you have similar experience with pre-tune too (better with a good base).
> Awesome no?


Yes totally awesome. 

Now I have to get the mids in boxes. I can tell that hole I'm fighting at 300
Is causing a lot of impact to be missing mostly snare or attack 
Dirac still corrected the amplitude problem and did it in a way that doesn't cause clipping or the typical over boost sound when you try to boost into a null. It still gets very loud and clean.

So now that I'm finally finally happy with the sound minus a very easy to fix install issue I can get the custom work on the dash finished and button up.

I love the way chair sounds however it forced me to make it a one seat tune. 
I will for sure use that for daily driving 
For when I have a passenger I use sofa tune and first measurement I put in middle of car so it doesn't correct timing but than take measurements just like it shows for sofa across the front seats , than inter HDs I have rephase setup for my Two seat tune that I already am using with my FIR based APFs and Dirac did a beautiful job at retaining my Two seat tune and in fact it made it even better.

What's crazy is there's not a whole lot of difference between the two. It's staging and imaging in both seats is great as far as placement goes. I'm really happy with how that part worked out. Both seats have a solid center. 
Without Dirac the center would loose coherency below 400hz and I had to just diffuse 100-400hz so it wouldn't pull the image from either seat. With Dirac it's stable down to 250hz which allows deep male vocals to be perfectly center on both sides . Once I got that right it's weird because I also got gobs and gobs of ambiance on both sides now as well which was largely muffled or eaten up by glass reflections 

It's weird I don't hear left or right as much as I can hear combfiltering now. Once I learned how to hear combfiltering it made me such a better tuner. 
It seems all I would care about was getting the center to be center before and calling it good after that because I couldn't get width or depth right so I always picked center out of my favorite thing to overcome because when I would tune for the other one would go away and if I compermised width, depth and center were all so mediocre that I couldn't settle. Now I think I nailed it . Well at least as best as one can for in car with dash mounted speakers. And I bet it's better than some kick panel installs with mediocre tuners behind the tune. 

Now I know I have to make kick tho for midbass . It will really make things from 100-400 have impact and work on both sides . So that and boxes for dash mids are up next


----------



## Elgrosso

So next, boxes everywhere? Seems you'll be busy for a while!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> So next, boxes everywhere? Seems you'll be busy for a while!


Sorta , I need to build tiny enclosures for the 6.5s up top . There running sorta IB into the sub dash . 

And I need to make a kick panel for another set. I think I'm just going to do another set of 6ND430s . There pretty sick lil drivers and take some serious power for a 6.5. 

If I do a decent sized box in kicks it should be pretty okay with the tens also and I will run them as subs to 100hz 

Do separate rephase corrections for sub and midbass , now that I can import auto eq right into rephase I can make a filter pretty quickly it cuts a few hours of work. Plus rew is optimized for rephase so that it will make a simple correction that doesn't take thousands of taps to accomplish. Just set limits the right way and know what your workin with. Than cut Dirac correction off at 100. Should work out. I really need 100-200coming from up front it's messin with impact from fronts havin the 10s play so high (250) right now I have the 6.5 with a custom 2db per oactave high pass at 200. The 6s now with about -14db at 20hz. And that is a great sounding filter . It allows the 6.5s to have just enough power to not freak out but enough to move just enough air to combine with the 10s in back to be able to match them and get it to sound forward. I need to get away from having to run like that, it works but I need try and get more upfront bass. Sub bass is fine in back.


----------



## oabeieo

Just threw back on the 2408H 

What a wicked bad ass lil driver. This one is best for non be . 
What a amazing sounding CD. It gets stupid loud with zero audible breakup.
What a good driver.


----------



## Elgrosso

So you will fit the 10" in front? Wow, when do you start?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> So you will fit the 10" in front? Wow, when do you start?


Im always doing something.... 

I been workin on it this last week 
Got a really really flat phase responce now. And been messing with 
Running Dirac than tuning with IIR 
Seems it works just fine , 
Don't know if you've tried this jbl driver but man it's a fantastic unit. 

10s in front ....no I'm doing 2x 6.5s and 10s behind me (or I'll take them out) 
Gonna wait n see what the kicks can do 

What's weird is I still haven't sold the sundown subs , OToh now that I have the phase correct in the lows I am extremely happy with the way the sundownz sound. It's crazy how well Dirac makes the sub sound. It's so so different and better. I've been havin a lot of fun with the rew/rephase interface 

I can take a driver measurement in REw and than use auto eq and export the eq filters right into rephase . I can get a correction filter already ready in a min after measurement and do the entire thing in fir as a mixed phase filter. 
It's as easy as turnoff crossovers, set sweep limits , measure, optimize, export, import, apply fir crossover, export , import again, send to dsp . Done 

It's sorta like running Dirac twice in a weird way , however the mag responce is freakishly flat now. I did all the rephase work 1st than ran Dirac and wowzers. The rephase correction is near field with driver out of car in free space (wanted to get the driver flat in phase and mag before the car environment, than let Dirac do all the reflection fixes to help it apply its filters better) 
I definitely have the best tune I've ever had in this car now. 

So yeah now I'm sorta wanting get some kicks done. 
I'm selling my p99 to buy the other set of 6NDs
And maybe do a open drcDA in lieu of one of my 2x4HDs for sub
That will give me a solid 6144taps to use on sub alone. Than have 3 minis running as 2x2s for the rest. 

As of now I have 25ms delay on time to mic delay, if I add the opendrc box I'll have a healthy 60ms delay. I need to make sure Dirac will know what to do after 60ms no sound being that's like the same as 53.4 feet. Don't want it to think it's in a big room and do a different correction.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Im always doing something....
> 
> I been workin on it this last week
> Got a really really flat phase responce now. And been messing with
> Running Dirac than tuning with IIR
> Seems it works just fine ,
> Don't know if you've tried this jbl driver but man it's a fantastic unit.
> 
> 10s in front ....no I'm doing 2x 6.5s and 10s behind me (or I'll take them out)
> Gonna wait n see what the kicks can do
> 
> What's weird is I still haven't sold the sundown subs , OToh now that I have the phase correct in the lows I am extremely happy with the way the sundownz sound. It's crazy how well Dirac makes the sub sound. It's so so different and better. I've been havin a lot of fun with the rew/rephase interface
> 
> I can take a driver measurement in REw and than use auto eq and export the eq filters right into rephase . I can get a correction filter already ready in a min after measurement and do the entire thing in fir as a mixed phase filter.
> It's as easy as turnoff crossovers, set sweep limits , measure, optimize, export, import, apply fir crossover, export , import again, send to dsp . Done
> 
> It's sorta like running Dirac twice in a weird way , however the mag responce is freakishly flat now. I did all the rephase work 1st than ran Dirac and wowzers. The rephase correction is near field with driver out of car in free space (wanted to get the driver flat in phase and mag before the car environment, than let Dirac do all the reflection fixes to help it apply its filters better)
> I definitely have the best tune I've ever had in this car now.
> 
> So yeah now I'm sorta wanting get some kicks done.
> I'm selling my p99 to buy the other set of 6NDs
> And maybe do a open drcDA in lieu of one of my 2x4HDs for sub
> That will give me a solid 6144taps to use on sub alone. Than have 3 minis running as 2x2s for the rest.
> 
> As of now I have 25ms delay on time to mic delay, if I add the opendrc box I'll have a healthy 60ms delay. I need to make sure Dirac will know what to do after 60ms no sound being that's like the same as 53.4 feet. Don't want it to think it's in a big room and do a different correction.


Ok I see you kept your 10" behind for now, and still want to put 4x6" in front.
So no more 15"? Or you just wait to sell the others (I just oredered an sbp15, don't know yet how to fit it but wanna try)
Never tried the 2408h, but it's a 1.5" right? 

How do you measure for rew/rephase? 1 spot, 8 sweeps like dirac, something else? 
And interesting point about the delay, did you read anything explaining the behavior of dirac with more details? I didn't find anything myself.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ok I see you kept your 10" behind for now, and still want to put 4x6" in front.
> So no more 15"? Or you just wait to sell the others (I just oredered an sbp15, don't know yet how to fit it but wanna try)
> Never tried the 2408h, but it's a 1.5" right?
> 
> How do you measure for rew/rephase? 1 spot, 8 sweeps like dirac, something else?
> And interesting point about the delay, did you read anything explaining the behavior of dirac with more details? I didn't find anything myself.


2- 6.5s upfront and a single 15 in future 

The 2408h is 1" screw on so you need adaptation but that's easy 
Don't get the 2408h-2 the original plain old 2408h is the hot ticket 
Man this driver is so sweet sounding, won't get lower than 1.6k tho


----------



## oabeieo

I think I got my Dirac thing sorted out . 
I took some post measurements in REw and found it made 1k area about 1db louder on left 
Probably the driver window reflections. When I roll down window it's perfect 
So I just dropped the level by 1db and it perfect now


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I think I got my Dirac thing sorted out .
> I took some post measurements in REw and found it made 1k area about 1db louder on left
> Probably the driver window reflections. When I roll down window it's perfect
> So I just dropped the level by 1db and it perfect now


Cool, how did you measure with REW then, average 8 sweeps in same spots than Dirac?
I’m curious because so far I’ve always been lazy to do a before/after Dirac with REW.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Cool, how did you measure with REW then, average 8 sweeps in same spots than Dirac?
> I’m curious because so far I’ve always been lazy to do a before/after Dirac with REW.


Yeah exactly I took 9 measurements and averaged them and just followed (as best I could) and the before after was surprising like the prediction in Dirac , obviously there was some differences but generally followed the curve and in total everything was within 3db on a 1:3oactave scale. But the entire left was a tad bit too loud. So I separated left and right in Dirac and adjusted left curve down -2db and it's great now.


But I also used just noise and RTA and did moving mic averages and that painted a better picture 
and that method of averages shows Dirac as more accurate


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Yeah exactly I took 9 measurements and averaged them and just followed (as best I could) and the before after was surprising like the prediction in Dirac , obviously there was some differences but generally followed the curve and in total everything was within 3db on a 1:3oactave scale. But the entire left was a tad bit too loud. So I separated left and right in Dirac and adjusted left curve down -2db and it's great now.


Ho yeah I forgot the 9th. I wonder if the 1st one is used by dirac for correction too.




> But I also used just noise and RTA and did moving mic averages and that painted a better picture
> and that method of averages shows Dirac as more accurate


Good stuff! Could be a proof that the 8/9 points are enough for the spfr in certain conditions.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ho yeah I forgot the 9th. I wonder if the 1st one is used by dirac for correction too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good stuff! Could be a proof that the 8/9 points are enough for the spfr in certain conditions.


1st measurement is phase (phase is time all in one) 
2-8 for frequency correction 

Which means you probably could move the mic around during sweeps for the 2-8. Which could get a better average. You would have to move it fast because short sweeps 

I'm going to experiment with moving mic method during sweeps on Dirac


----------



## oabeieo

Blew one of the audax 10s 
Got a set of celestion 10s today to get me by till I finish my fab and buy the new house

They look decent, very decent and they were not expensive at all. 

Pretty sweet .


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> 1st measurement is phase (phase is time all in one)
> 2-8 for frequency correction
> 
> Which means you probably could move the mic around during sweeps for the 2-8. Which could get a better average. You would have to move it fast because short sweeps
> 
> I'm going to experiment with moving mic method during sweeps on Dirac


Hum curious about that, to get a good averaging effect would need to move the mic fast yeah, no fear of picking some «*wind*» noise?
It’s your REW check experiment with RTA that gave you the idea?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Hum curious about that, to get a good averaging effect would need to move the mic fast yeah, no fear of picking some «*wind*» noise?
> It’s your REW check experiment with RTA that gave you the idea?


Yeah it was.

Because even tho it's average is painfully flat I can still improve on it with moving mic and RTA and some simple peq. 

I need to get off my butt and do a really really good pre tune than run Dirac 

I just haven't because what it's already done on it's own is so enjoyable to listen to I'm afraid of making it worce and not being able to get myself back. 

Although it ends on Sunday , I'm doing boxes for 6.5s and going to try to get some vynil work done for once I'm tired of my dash lookin ugly. 

And I'm pretty sure I'm going to do black acrylic plex grills on 6.5s and have very small etchings put in it.


----------



## oabeieo

Havin a little fun today. 












image upload no size limit


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## oabeieo

upload pics


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## Mlarson67

Those are freakin awesome!


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## oabeieo

Mlarson67 said:


> Those are freakin awesome!


Thank you!


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## oabeieo

Finally a nice day, built lil boxes for the 6.5s out of duraglass and mdf 
Finally got some vynil done. Not such a eyesore now. 

Going to make "grills" out of black acrylic but the speaker cone will still be seen 
And etch Stevens audio in it. 

Can wait to do the cover for the horns and get the rest lookin good 

I also added some celestion 10s and they kinda suck. And I added another 600w 

I hooked up the BMS drivers and have them bridged on a 600w 4ch they are 16ohm so they now getting 120w ...it's clean sounding ....very 






upload a gif


----------



## Elgrosso

Look very nice, almost like it has a soft touch/suede effect.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Look very nice, almost like it has a soft touch/suede effect.


Yeah and phone pic sucks. 
At work we get a lot of this vinyl called mystique. I really like it a lot. It's got a nice backing and a classy modern pattern. I'm happy with way they look. Can't wait to finish them more and get the horns cover built.

I built up about 2" "milkshake " ( bondo, duraglass, resin) in the front panel. That made it extremely strong. I added about 12db of low extension out of the 6.5s now. They kinda bump now. The make some good bass from the top of dash. By far I needed to get that done I'm very glad I did it like this.


----------



## oabeieo

Just got a set of 10NW64-4 for the back

Gonna be bumpin midbass


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Just got a set of 10NW64-4 for the back
> 
> Gonna be bumpin midbass


They seem to have everything!


----------



## oabeieo

I put the BMS 4552nd in bridged on a 360w X2 class AB , so at 16ohms they sound good
They getting about 120w 

The 4552nd is such a precarious little driver.
It gives a depth to the HF that I just can't get with any other driver. 
It definitely sounds noticeably different than the 2408h and has very similar sweet sound. 
And I can cross it at 1.2k it rolls off very quickly at 900hz so 1.2k gives me just the tiniest bit to blend, but works very nice being the mid is right next to the horn. 

I ran a Dirac tune with the BMS and it sounds killer. 
Even with a whimsy celestion midbass. I'm pretty happy overall now.


----------



## captainobvious

oabeieo said:


> Just got a set of 10NW64-4 for the back
> 
> Gonna be bumpin midbass



Sweet! Were you able to get them from George?

I modeled the 10NW64 a while back and they were very impressive. They have a little more low end roll off than say the Dyn MW182, JL ZR800, etc that I compared it with, but it has wayyy more sensitivity and output capability so you can more than make up for it by simply eq'ing down the 150hz+ response and raise output. Should provide a LOT of kick in that Fit 

Definitely interested to hear how they work out for you.


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## oabeieo

Heck yeah!

That's exactly what I need. 

Should do pretty alright


----------



## oabeieo

I got to spend some time with Dirac today. 

I did a really good pretune and than ran Dirac and got a clean set of measurements.

I found Dirac sounds better (just like every other eq in the world) if there is nothing boosted. I got my levels up as loud as I can (-6db) and turned down mic gain about -14db
And set my target to have no boost and I ran it with sub off. That way it can make the ever so important phase of the midbass alone instead of a combined response. That worked way better. Than I used 300hz which is my deepest null and set my target to max out at 300db to 0db. Than a slope down -16db at 16khz. I made Dirac follow a smooth decending response from 20-300hz that mostly follows the responce shape of the midbass rolloff. 

Than I measured in REw and set some limits and measured the sub and it's phase. And the sub measurements have Dirac correction embedded because it's all the same signal so I knew it would need some phase correction. I export a raw measurement of sub into rephase and simply make a phase adjustment that matches Diracs midbass responce but keeps it going. 

The result; the baddest ass thing car audio has to offer. That processor makes **** that wouldn't be possible possible. 

I've spend months tuning and getting a flat response but this thing makes it FLAT! 
What is especially cool is all that eq cut you would think is being taken out of the signal but I think it normalize the output. I shouldn't have dick for output gain on the optical cable but it has plenty of un-clipped output. It's pretty stinkin nifty. 

I know this is like the third time I've have the same mini review but I just can't get over how quickly this little device makes things sound good. And not just look good on a graph.


----------



## LumbermanSVO

That's pretty much how I feel about the APL1 after finally getting to use it. What I can achieve with just the APL1 between my phone and 800PRS with no other DSP is phenomenal. Far better that what I could do with just the 800PRS and DEQ.8 after it. 

I bow to the FIR gods...


----------



## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> That's pretty much how I feel about the APL1 after finally getting to use it. What I can achieve with just the APL1 between my phone and 800PRS with no other DSP is phenomenal. Far better that what I could do with just the 800PRS and DEQ.8 after it.
> 
> I bow to the FIR gods...


You ain't kiddin. 

I honestly truly believe when I've heard people say adding fir just makes it a little bit better was being extremely modest to say the least. The time smear caused by the environment and crossovers really diminishes the life in a lot of recordings. Especially the bass


----------



## Elgrosso

You know what, after reading your post yesterday I went in my car tuning!
(Was too lazy before but you got be motivated )
It's getting better and better, the difference before/after dirac is really obvious.

Not quite sure I got everything you said, about rephase etc 
But for the target level I have the same feeling, it sounds better when it's lower, but I'm still working on this.
Also I tried a higher level during dirac sweeps, and it definitely changes the results too. I have to find the optimum, related to most common listening level I guess.


----------



## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> You ain't kiddin.
> 
> I honestly truly believe when I've heard people say adding fir just makes it a little bit better was being extremely modest to say the least. The time smear caused by the environment and crossovers really diminishes the life in a lot of recordings. Especially the bass


It's hard to describe the difference, it just sounds... natural. Maybe that's why people are modest about it.


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## oabeieo

Some pics of the ride 







image hosting 15mb


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## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> It's hard to describe the difference, it just sounds... natural. Maybe that's why people are modest about it.


Yeah maybe so. It's not to say you can't have a good sounding system without it 
, but once you have it there ain't no going back. 

I wasn't sure if I wanted to sell the p99 and after I got it dialed in it was a no brainer , what's weird is the big cabin null can be partially fixed. It won't stop the cancellation but will at least give you the best chance of a good outcome


----------



## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> Yeah maybe so. It's not to say you can't have a good sounding system without it
> , but once you have it there ain't no going back.
> 
> I wasn't sure if I wanted to sell the p99 and after I got it dialed in it was a no brainer , what's weird is the big cabin null can be partially fixed. It won't stop the cancellation but will at least give you the best chance of a good outcome


For me, the 800PRS fits the purpose of the Miata perfectly. I get the crossovers I need, TA and I can power the horns with it. Also, I already had it, so the price was right.  The Bronco will get something more powerful.


----------



## oabeieo

Put back in the compneo Stevens Audio drivers 
1st time I've used them with Dirac. Wholly cow these sound good! 
Dirac made this driver amazingly good sounding. 

But....it could be that is a awesome driver, could also be that the BMS driver I had on there one has a fried diaphragm. It still plays but one has to have a issue because when I tried taking measurements the right side kept saying there was clipping and would stop make me redo the measuremen


----------



## Elgrosso

You got clipping alert in dirac? That must be high


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> You got clipping alert in dirac? That must be high



Yeah definitely! Figured it out , the class AB amp doesn't like to be bridged or I have a dud channel ... I switched it back to two channel and it works just fine 
no clipping. I think I fried another diaphragm.

Something funky going on with that amp channel


----------



## oabeieo

Got the materials to start my kicks. 

Steve your inspiration is about to make form. 

I can't frikkin wait . I'm going to try to get a 8 down there


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Got the materials to start my kicks.
> 
> Steve your inspiration is about to make form.
> 
> I can't frikkin wait . I'm going to try to get a 8 down there


Yeah!
Will you cut metal?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah!
> Will you cut metal?


If I have to....


----------



## oabeieo

I got the B&C 10NW64-4 woofers installed. 

Wowzers that is a amazing midbass. 
If you like the warm midbass like a dyn has this speaker makes tons and tons of it.


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## oabeieo

Well,
I got off my butt and did it..
A solid pre-tune had to gain my horns up a lot. I added the sub into measurement..
I FINALLY got a good tune! NO i mean zero clipping at a pretty loud measurement
measured at -26db and mik gain 0

Fort some reason everything came together , I need to finish my custom work and show this thing. Geesh its pretty frikkin bad frikkin ass now...

But for some reason I have a bit of pre ring now....I cant hear it, its coming from my !/2 order filter (3db octave) high pass on mid-range that's causing it. I have 50hz too high and its a linear phase filter....easy fix but its inaudible. If the mid-range could be heard at 50hz than i would have issues but the mic picks it up...








image hosting over 10mb



Im stoked! I DO NOT want to mess with it for at least two three weeks and enjoy this tune a bit

I have a tiny spot at 8khz that it goes farther than +/_ 10db So the correction has virtually no clipping now....

OH my sub sounds so so so good now...AHHHHHHHH its the ****!


----------



## oabeieo

Dirac really truly is the best thing since sliced bread. 
I have no clue why anyone wouldn't seriously consider adding one. 
No processor that I know of can give such a good sounding tune that I know of minus maybe APL1 or a 2x4HDs with hundreds of hours learning how to fix an impulse response and than applying it. This thing does it right now. And does it good and does it correctly.

This ain't no ms8 auto tune. Nothing like it. Not even in the same league, this device really truly does an amazing job. It's truly amazing , this technology really should be in everything it's that good. 

I've been tuning systems for some time now, I know a good tuner can think. And how egos can get in the way. And that's what it is. This device takes away the DIY spirit of tuning but **** me who cares! Do you want a car that sound good or do you want mediocrity. 


Okay enough bragging  I'm just rubbin it in now. (Kidding) 
It really is pretty dam good.


----------



## Elgrosso

Sweet!
Is this with the new 10" then? Where do you cross everything?
I'm surprised by your target (dirac's?) I thought you were a bass head 
And the horns that push up to 18khz! Mine drop at 16.
But big L/R variations on horns, is it the updash mount?
And how is the noise floor?

It's cool that an experienced tuner confirms Dirac is a great piece for cars too.
I had no doubt since it's better than everything I had, but I don't have much experience listening to top score cars to compare.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Sweet!
> Is this with the new 10" then? Where do you cross everything?
> I'm surprised by your target (dirac's?) I thought you were a bass head
> And the horns that push up to 18khz! Mine drop at 16.
> But big L/R variations on horns, is it the updash mount?
> And how is the noise floor?
> 
> It's cool that an experienced tuner confirms Dirac is a great piece for cars too.
> I had no doubt since it's better than everything I had, but I don't have much experience listening to top score cars to compare.




I haven't heard that many top score cars. 
I've heard 2 of Wayne Watkins cars which were no joke bad to the bone and couldn't have been done better and I heard a local guy that won iasca finals Matt somethingrather he had an Audi with driveracks and arc amps and it was good....
And years ago I heard multiple vendor demo cars that were just ok but nothing to write home about. And a whole lotta amateur competitors and it was mixed....

I was the guy that never competed but brought my car and let folks listen....I have only had two other cars that made it to a complete install before I sold them . Both horn cars ...

But man, linear phase is a whole different ball game. It really really steps things up and with this kind of dsp power tuning is finally not a process that takes weeks and weeks or months sometimes. You know right away if there's a install issue....

What's also cool is I know for certain you car sounds probably the same as mine in many ways. Yeah difffrent equipment and locations but overall sq you car has got to be the frikkin ****. That's how confident I know this processor works. 


Crossovers , 1.2k on Stevens audio compneo CD with minihorns on dash 20db per oactave 
6ND430s on dash 1.2kLP 20db per oactave and 200hz 3db per oactave HP
10NW64 30hz high pass at 9db per oactaveHP and 200hz 99db per oactaveLP
Sa15d2-X2 no subsonic and 50hz 9db per oactave LP

All crossover LR alignment (6db down at crossover) and linear phase. minus the 20hz overlap on sub to midbass. 

I'm not a huge bass head but I do not want to miss out on the 10hz-30hz response. That's why I like 2-15s and my measurements are with bass knob about 1/3 way up. That way I can give the song that need some bass love a bit more. And with a shallow filter on sub it blends up to 120hz so the more I move bass up all it does is make a gradual incline on FR. no sharp cutoffs . Ick .

The bass is by far the best thing. I have never ever heard bass in a car like this. 
It hits all the notes with transients and is so smooth it's crazy. The phase correction from sub to midbass makes the system...
And having perfect filters for L/R makes the psychoacoustic stuff the best. Canter isn't some mono flat sounding singer that was forced by Time alignment and screwed up combfiltering combo it's outside the car sounding and dead center.

I need to get my kicks done. Although I have enough gain at300hz because of Iraq the acoustical cancellation makes 300hz sound soggy. Luckily it's the only thing soggy. That's from mids firing at each other. I shouldn't have done that but that's how I wanted the dash to look.....so I'll do kicks. But for now....


Not Iraq,, Dirac silly phone text


----------



## oabeieo

But dood I get responce to 20k.
I don't know why Dirac only shows to 16. RTA shows 20k. 
I think Dirac shows that because the last measurement point (the one you can't get rid of) won't let you drag it to 20....so I think it's a Dirac graph error. 

On rew it plays past 20, I'm at 48k rew 64bit fft so I can see to 22k with a rectangle window.


----------



## oabeieo

I don't think is a good idea to have Dirac add the heavy heavy bass in a correction as part of the correction. Get the phase right for a flat level with Dirac and use bass knob to boost bass to what sounds good in car. It's all minimum phase anyway so amplitude will move phase with it. Like perfectly also in minimum phase. So why not save the output in Dirac and just use a bass knob. 

Plus a boss knob does not act like a IIR filter so it won't have any time stretches in it.


And during my pretune i moved the mic all over from box corners to corners in the square I do measurements...

I knocked down only peaks that both left and right have together... the rest of the peaks that were not shared and independent to one channel I left alone. And it barley got me to the 20db (10db+/-) threshold. I wanted to avoid a whole bunch of twisting frequencies around and to be sure nothing will be moved twice .... works good. I'll stay with this method.


----------



## Elgrosso

Very cool.
I completely forgot about the bass knob, I think I have the HD one but never used it!




> But dood I get responce to 20k.
> I don't know why Dirac only shows to 16. RTA shows 20k.
> I think Dirac shows that because the last measurement point (the one you can't get rid of) won't let you drag it to 20....so I think it's a Dirac graph error.
> 
> On rew it plays past 20, I'm at 48k rew 64bit fft so I can see to 22k with a rectangle window.


Well REW or Dirac I go up to 16khz then drop fast, 18kHz is like -10/-15db already.
No big deal for 18K I don't hear this, except super loud.
But 16/17 I would want more.




> I don't think is a good idea to have Dirac add the heavy heavy bass in a correction as part of the correction. Get the phase right for a flat level with Dirac and use bass knob to boost bass to what sounds good in car. It's all minimum phase anyway so amplitude will move phase with it. Like perfectly also in minimum phase. So why not save the output in Dirac and just use a bass knob.
> 
> Plus a boss knob does not act like a IIR filter so it won't have any time stretches in it.
> 
> 
> And during my pretune i moved the mic all over from box corners to corners in the square I do measurements...
> 
> I knocked down only peaks that both left and right have together... the rest of the peaks that were not shared and independent to one channel I left alone. And it barley got me to the 20db (10db+/-) threshold. I wanted to avoid a whole bunch of twisting frequencies around and to be sure nothing will be moved twice .... works good. I'll stay with this method.


Makes a lot of sense, I'll try that, moving the mic or using more than 8 sweeps for pre-tuning.
And the focus on what's common in L/R.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Very cool.
> I completely forgot about the bass knob, I think I have the HD one but never used it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well REW or Dirac I go up to 16khz then drop fast, 18kHz is like -10/-15db already.
> No big deal for 18K I don't hear this, except super loud.
> But 16/17 I would want more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes a lot of sense, I'll try that, moving the mic or using more than 8 sweeps for pre-tuning.
> And the focus on what's common in L/R.



I'm going to have to validate my post tune high frequency roll off ......

But yeah if you're doing sweeps for pre-tuning instead of RTA I would just copy cat your exact Durack measurement points and do three averages of each point a total of 27 measurements if I remember correctly


----------



## Elgrosso

Yeah I used to do 8 sweeps in REW like Dirac. But I want to try more, non averaged 16 or + to get a precise picture. In fact I want to find out where the summing at XO starts to get real messy and where it’s good enough. Just to see if there’s a specific point that I should/could avoid.
In Dirac we have 3 sweeps per position, but I think the first one is only used for time reference not for the final filter (other wise it would put too much weight on the selected side)


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah I used to do 8 sweeps in REW like Dirac. But I want to try more, non averaged 16 or + to get a precise picture. In fact I want to find out where the summing at XO starts to get real messy and where it’s good enough. Just to see if there’s a specific point that I should/could avoid.
> In Dirac we have 3 sweeps per position, but I think the first one is only used for time reference not for the final filter (other wise it would put too much weight on the selected side)


 If it was for timing reference there would be 4 a ttiming reference for left and right .... because it only does one extra sweep The distance from the other side would be wrong then . I'm just playing devils advocate let's find out I'm going to ask the question on the other forms ...

But yeah I will do a minimum of 3 to 4 measurements per mic location 
And then average all of them together into one. So 68 measurements if did 4 sweeps per location.... that way you know you get a really good average . 

I was thinking about making some sort of jig that I could use to hold the mic and set it in the seat that is set up for all of the locations


----------



## oabeieo

My jig would look like this  

img host


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> My jig would look like this
> 
> img host


----------



## Elgrosso

Maybe it works like REW, when you define a reference Left or right, to measure Left or right, except here it measures both in the same time.
I don;t see any other use of this first sweep, since it’s always the same side.
If not then it's even better, because we could use this sweep to move and add another point.

Something cool would be 2,3 or + mics on a jig to increase the points!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Maybe it works like REW, when you define a reference Left or right, to measure Left or right, except here it measures both in the same time.
> I don;t see any other use of this first sweep, since it’s always the same side.
> If not then it's even better, because we could use this sweep to move and add another point.
> 
> Something cool would be 2,3 or + mics on a jig to increase the points!



I've never noticed it does both at the same time .... I thought it did left right left , something to discover for sure


----------



## Elgrosso

You’re right not in the same time but I meant left/right/left. I can’t check right now but I think there’s a way to do right/left/right... the recording channel maybe?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> You’re right not in the same time but I meant left/right/left. I can’t check right now but I think there’s a way to do right/left/right... the recording channel maybe?


 The recording channel is the USB input for the Mic...


I've got some questions out on other forms will see what pops up


----------



## oabeieo

Put the big horns up top. 
Eric Stevens drivers. That **** sounds good. And really powerful. Some serious clean clean energy happenin  

I also ordered a TRu line amp. That should be good. I'm 99%sure helix uses a line amp as part of the board. Minidsp doesn't so this will be a extrernal one. No big. 
But excited still. This will be a once and for all final fix to the gay ass -10db situation. 
out of the mini thenoise floor raises about 10db also, but at 120db 110 is still quite acceptable. So should be moot


----------



## oabeieo

Was so excited did a sofa type tune, images good both sides 

Just a small post Dirac eq trick to take take some of the frequencies that are at the peak of the 1st comb and sounds good! Both sides strong center. Decently wide. 
Widthis limited but not totally collapsed ... 

But still have a 300hz problem. Must do kicks. But for what it is. Dam. 

Got the 10s playing to 300 now with a 48db filter. As good as it gets for sound behind me. 
Dirac does a beautiful job at making them disappear. The phase alignment is measured that's why. So of course it would.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Was so excited did a sofa type tune, images good both sides
> 
> Just a small post Dirac eq trick to take take some of the frequencies that are at the peak of the 1st comb and sounds good! Both sides strong center. Decently wide.
> Widthis limited but not totally collapsed ...
> 
> But still have a 300hz problem. Must do kicks. But for what it is. Dam.
> 
> Got the 10s playing to 300 now with a 48db filter. As good as it gets for sound behind me.
> Dirac does a beautiful job at making them disappear. The phase alignment is measured that's why. So of course it would.


So you think there’s a different algorithm treatment between sofa/chair? I tried sofa at the beginning but kept it a too short time to notice anything.

What’s your issue at 300Hz, is it just audible or does it appear on measurements?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> So you think there’s a different algorithm treatment between sofa/chair? I tried sofa at the beginning but kept it a too short time to notice anything.
> 
> What’s your issue at 300Hz, is it just audible or does it appear on measurements?


Yes diffrent algo ....

1st measurement goes in middle of car. And treat seats as sofa....works very decent .....need PLds Low tho for it to work. I don't think a door speaker crossed higher than about 300hz will work. Left and right midbass need to be within 90 acoustical degrees..... the passenger will be the inverse of driver so if driver is 90 deg pass will be 270deg. Once past the Schroeder than it becomes eq trickery and Low low low PLD is a must....so for me I have 4" PLD on horns you have probably 12-15" so it works on mine .....I wouldn't even waste my time with yours it won't work right....

Well I take that back ,, you could pull the right HF curtain all way over to your crossover point between doers and horns , don't use a mid , and have a phase rotation from doors , it would have small imaging problem around 400-800hz but you could cross your horns lower to like 630hz and probably get away with a fair to fair sound stage for both sides that way..... if you mid had a low PLD like less than about 6" it could work decent.....Basicly let the horns do there thing as low as possible as they were designed for, than a small phase turn on one of doors ...Dirac would do that but Dirac ups also screw up horn dispersion patterns, so curtain them and do self eq . 


My mids PLD is 6" and 4" on horns, but my car is only 3.5' wide also....
Your is more like 4.25-5' wide.... still narrow compared to a truck but makes it to where you have to use kicks....and or flooor firing forward midbass like under brake pedal and passenger footwell ....that would get PLds down....


----------



## Elgrosso

Ha ok you meant a 2 seats tune too, thought you just tried 1 seat with sofa mode.
Would be curious if there’s a difference in treatment behind, between both sofa/chair, or even the 3rd one, for the same mic positions.
I’d say it’s only for the illustration but who knows.


----------



## oabeieo

Oh you silly. Lol yes two lol 


Yeah I tryed auditorium , sofa , and chair with just chair mic positions 

It's no good ....they different 

Auditorium looks for a longer time in early reflections and ignores late reflections.
And a even frequency response over a broad area. Doesn't necessarily try to get a image right I think it leaves out timing errors and just does overall frequency and phase correction and looks for longer reflection times to correct for 

Chair obviously 

Sofa , like chair but for two seats ..... chair works okay u should fiddle with it a bit.


----------



## oabeieo

Found this gem....
Anyone who reads this page should take the time and read ALL of this. And think it through.
This is a very interesting topic and this paper really nails down how to fix phantom center issues.....it's much more than time alignment and even frequency response on both sides..

http://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/FixingThePhantomCenter.pdf

Dirac does a astonishing job at making the phantom center deep and have layers to it....
But using the tools in this paper on a pre tune only can help it. 

Or without Dirac just some general ideas on what's happening....
One of the best reads I read in awhile. Very informative and agreeable
And yes it talks a lot about combfiltering. Gang we need to get combfiltering dug into the noobs ideas about tuning. It's pretty dam important aspect I see completely ignored way too often


----------



## oabeieo

So we can hi jack this thread.....if it matters. I don't care about jibberish on here....

To say something I got for the Honda today 

I got this line amps today....pretty sweet...

No more itching to max out my toslink for loud. 
This company is pretty legit. They do things with a car audio guy in mind for sure. 
Pretty sick gear for sure, and I like there choice of internals....good stuff , i got to browse the catalog and see what sick amps they make and talk to them.

I need 300w on each speaker and 1200w on subs... if they make what I need maybe I'll switch ...








how to take screenshots


----------



## oabeieo

Well we put the offer in on the new place yesterday 
Fingers crossed. We find out today pretty cryzy


----------



## captainobvious

Good luck with the offer!


So you're digging those 10's eh? 


So with Dirac, are you defining your own target response curve that it then tries to achieve? I think the target response curve is part f the "secret sauce" when tuning.


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> Good luck with the offer!
> 
> 
> So you're digging those 10's eh?
> 
> 
> So with Dirac, are you defining your own target response curve that it then tries to achieve? I think the target response curve is part f the "secret sauce" when tuning.


Offer rejected , out bid by 40k  

So the hunt continues 


But yes the target curve needs to be chosen methodically being it's a gloabal change. 

Carefully comparing the averaged frequency responce of the system and being aware of where it is going to put substantial boost. 

Lately I've been purposely manipulating it by adding a lot of boost at my cabin null on the tens (and yes there sick I love em) with bass knob turned down to about half , than doing measurements, creating a target and than go back into the 10s dsp channel and taking away the boost back to flat and than compensate by turn up bass knob to restore....

That way it doesn't add so much boost the the whole thing which affects all the speakers interactions. It seems to work better that way to use minimum phase to your advantage. You could just remove the boost by moving the target as well but that too would change the spectral balance of everything and all you want is to make a adjustment to one driver....

So little tricks in tuning makes a learning curve overall but once you get the hang of how it wants to do things than a few tricks need to be made because the environment and power between drivers....


----------



## oabeieo

So....
Looks like the build will be put off now till summer. 

I'll rock it as is for a bit just went in contract on a pretty dope house. 
265k in Colorado Springs. Have a view of pikes peak from my front window. 
Trilev 2car, 5bd, 2750sqft. .2ac .....so it will be a 60mi drive to work. That will be gay but the fam will have a pretty sick pad for the kiddies. So......I'll still be tuning and screwing around....


The cool thing is I am going to look for a older car for the winter that I'm going to chop the crap out of and put a system in it...I'll do 12s in the floor or something silly. Maybe a Subaru or something I can completely remove the dash from and just drive it dashless and do some 2 cu boxes with 10s and horns and remove the passenger front seat and do a sub box firing forward into the passenger footwell for a 15 or something just absolutely silly.

So as soon as we move I'll buy the winter beater and than the fit will go in the garage and get torn the **** down and some serious custom will be happening . I'll finally have a way away from work to work on my own ****. Renting sucks ass this is a good change 
It's going to be weird not living in denver. I will miss it.


----------



## oabeieo

Can't delete that. **** 

Anyway I'm getting new amps as soon as we move 

I'm going to do tru amps. I'll use the biggest two channels bridged on each driver 
That will make 400w per driver. Should be decent. Maybe even use it in stereo mode 
But definitely will use this gear. 

It's got all the latest and greatest and non conforming parts used are meant for serious sq not mass production. I actually like them better than brax amps. Brax is nice ......built like a tank and amazing in every way but these are good also. These amps are geared more to my taste in audio gear. The internals! I don't care about plexiglass or paint or anodizing. 
If it has the bomb parts inside I'm sold. 

I like the tungsten line so far .....I'll keep lookin


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Can't delete that. ****
> 
> Anyway I'm getting new amps as soon as we move
> 
> I'm going to do tru amps. I'll use the biggest two channels bridged on each driver
> That will make 400w per driver. Should be decent. Maybe even use it in stereo mode
> But definitely will use this gear.
> 
> It's got all the latest and greatest and non conforming parts used are meant for serious sq not mass production. I actually like them better than brax amps. Brax is nice ......built like a tank and amazing in every way but these are good also. These amps are geared more to my taste in audio gear. The internals! I don't care about plexiglass or paint or anodizing.
> If it has the bomb parts inside I'm sold.
> 
> I like the tungsten line so far .....I'll keep lookin


Wow cool! (and you beat me, I’ll only have 375w )
So the "conditioner" didn't work much?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Wow cool! (and you beat me, I’ll only have 375w )
> So the "conditioner" didn't work much?


Haven't installed it yet been too busy 
But that's a dam good company so I'll use them. 


Today I lowered the crossover on horns 
And mid 

I'm crossed at 680hz -linkwitz alignment 27db linear phase. 
800hz is a great starting point, however right at 800 I have the loud peak of the 2nd combfilte so I didn't want driver interaction right there. 

I wanted to use more of the horns directivity at 800 so I don't have this nasty comb peak breaking air and ruining they smooth 800hz by bouncing off the glass. 

ES compneo drivers have a natural bump at 700hz that's pretty big they play smooth down to 600hz. I have a pretty high Q negative peak filter at 500hz about -10hz on horns to stop there resonance and they sound great. 

I really needed to do that. Much more balanced now.


----------



## SSSnake

> Found this gem....
> Anyone who reads this page should take the time and read ALL of this. And think it through.
> This is a very interesting topic and this paper really nails down how to fix phantom center issues.....it's much more than time alignment and even frequency response on both sides..
> 
> http://www.sfxmachine.com/docs/Fixin...ntomCenter.pdf


First thank you as I always appreciate when posters provide scientific research into audio. I do have to ask, are you suggesting the method defined in the paper for implementation within a car or are you just suggesting this as good background information? The reason I ask is the method they suggest will likely be ineffective in a car based on the following quote from the referenced paper: "During informal listening tests in an acoustically live office, no obvious improvement in dialogue clarity was noticed. However, this method did cause a reduction in the noticeability of coloration changes when moving the head from side to side. It also produced a slight improvement of the problem of phantom images
moving toward the nearest speaker, by slightly blurring the apparent position so it was not so tightly focused. The allpass gain g controls the tradeoff between image
focus and reduction of coloration. " 

IME the car is a VERY live room therefore the method they developed seems to have some very negative artifacts (blurred image with no improvement in clarity). The reduction in side bias is pretty typical with large center image presentation. The discussion of the various techniques to enhance ineligibility, timber, and imaging were definitely interesting. What in your opinion was the critical information that would "nail down how to fix center image issues" (not trying to be argumentative but just see what I may have missed)?


----------



## oabeieo

Hi sss 

Yeah I just thought the paper had some really interesting points and the idea of doing more than just timing and frequency response to gain a bigger and more defined psychoacoustic image to include the center and how combfilters effect the center. Our case is much more extreme when it comes to combfilters and I think the combfilters is what makes a car sound so "lively " as you say. The ringing in the impulse caused by combfilters and such. 

I liked that the paper got me to think about a lot of different things that make this sound image to our precepts in general. Yeah it was a bit of a tough read , however - and I got about the same impression you did - if anyone that can read that and actually is at the level of understanding to know what all of the terminologies and methodologies that were in the paper would clearly be advanced enough in audio in general to know what parts of it to adopt into a car environment and what parts aren't reasonable. 

The section I really enjoyed and learned to adopt into car was the section on impulse response and combfiltering. After reading the paper I have been able to compare left and right impulses and effectively know how combfilters effect our perception of the phantom or psychoacoustic and interaural crosstalk , and that they get the reader to think how all that correlates and "temporal smearing" as they call it. Not just time smear between left and right but more importantly reverbant time smear and how combfilters reverbant attributes contribute to additional time smearing and spacial smearing in general 

It was a interesting read for sure I enjoyed it thoroughly and re-read parts of it several times. 




SSSnake said:


> First thank you as I always appreciate when posters provide scientific research into audio. I do have to ask, are you suggesting the method defined in the paper for implementation within a car or are you just suggesting this as good background information? The reason I ask is the method they suggest will likely be ineffective in a car based on the following quote from the referenced paper: "During informal listening tests in an acoustically live office, no obvious improvement in dialogue clarity was noticed. However, this method did cause a reduction in the noticeability of coloration changes when moving the head from side to side. It also produced a slight improvement of the problem of phantom images
> moving toward the nearest speaker, by slightly blurring the apparent position so it was not so tightly focused. The allpass gain g controls the tradeoff between image
> focus and reduction of coloration. "
> 
> IME the car is a VERY live room therefore the method they developed seems to have some very negative artifacts (blurred image with no improvement in clarity). The reduction in side bias is pretty typical with large center image presentation. The discussion of the various techniques to enhance ineligibility, timber, and imaging were definitely interesting. What in your opinion was the critical information that would "nail down how to fix center image issues" (not trying to be argumentative but just see what I may have missed)?


----------



## oabeieo

Contd:

It's crazy to think about how much smoothing our brain adds to things. 
After that paper I've been glued to a few other reads in the audiology dept. 
I feel like I'm just at the very beginning of fully understanding how we hear things. It's really quite exciting and educational. I hope to realize a understanding that allows me to make better corrections and more sober approach to setting up a car for good audio. 

Getting a car to truly image good in both seats is no easy task. I've spend hundreds of hours getting it to just have a solid center from both sides, I feel I've accomplished it fairly well, but don't want to stop at just that. I'm starting to believe some opsodis type active loudspeaker to be used only as a filter for comb notches is on the horizon.


----------



## oabeieo

So I've been really getting into how the combfilters affect things and am at the point now where I can pretty much hear the reverbant combfilters vs direct sound now. 

I've come to the conclusion that at the peaks of each comb it's a bad idea to eq it flat. 

It sounds better if I eq the peaks down only 1/2way (6db vs.12db) 

I have a huge peak at 200-400-800-1.2-1.6k 

The 200-400-800 peaks are the ones that need a lot of cuts to be flat but it takes all the impact out of the music , the issue is I'm eqing too much and the direct sound than becomes only half of what it should be because immeasurably there's half of the comb in the measurements. So.... looking at the power responce of the car and the step responce between drivers it makes sence to use only 1/2 the eq on the 6" that pays 90° off axis . 

I have also changed the 10s in the back from a steep 28db filter to a shallow 8db per oactave linear phase fir filter from 150hz and up. The 10s are definitely talking a bit now but Dirac does such a good job at its correction it blends them so well you honestly can't even tell there back there. I've also lowered its gain by -2db compared to the fronts for a better step. It works nicely. Being the 10s are exactly behind both listening positions right smack behind each persons head I was able to get a much fuller more blended sound in both seats. It's a more immersive sound experience and doesn't sound bad one bit. 

It smears the soundstage pinpoint accuracy a bit. But the compromise is worth it so far. 
Especially the piano now sounds a bit closer to you where I had it sounding really far away is now just beyond the speakers actual locations.

None of the soundstage sounds closer than the speakers actual locations and the high frequency rolloff is just right to maintain the proper power response and keep the stage farther sounding and mostly psychoacoustics. 

Best I think I can get now with this setup...

Need to get the move done and start my kicks!


----------



## subwoofery

oabeieo said:


> ...I have a huge peak at 200-400-800-1.2-1.6k...


Looks like you have a resonance problem in the mid region... 400Hz-800Hz are multiple of 200Hz :surprised:

Kelvin


----------



## Elgrosso

So the plan now is ti remove the 6" from the dash and put them on the floor?


----------



## oabeieo

subwoofery said:


> Looks like you have a resonance problem in the mid region... 400Hz-800Hz are multiple of 200Hz :surprised:
> 
> Kelvin


HI kelvin , 

Oh yes resonance with ringing and reverb.

All I been talkin about lately is combfilters.
Those are the comb peaks the notches are at 315,630 and a super narrow q 1.2k 

Can't escape it. Unless I reposition (which will probably happen) if the kicks don't solve a lot. Since I moved the crossover on horns down to 690 I have got the comb notch at 630 worked out and the directivity of the horn helps move things forward instead of sideways and into glass


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> So the plan now is ti remove the 6" from the dash and put them on the floor?


Nope ....the uptop 6 actually kinda bumps at 70-150hz I'll have those playing as well as the kicks down low and at crossover.

I'll make a dual passband fir filter for that driver is the plan but we all know I might find something better or worce about the kicks so I'll have to play with both sets and experiment until l find the sweet areas. 

The freakiness of acoustics in car I don't think anyone can really predict perfectly with any car or setup unless you know the car and how it responds to a mounting location. So maybe a small handful of people could take a good guess but I don't think anyone can truly predict it. It just takes building it and tuning and learn how the sound moves and reflects.

The 6.5s up top have a (in most parts) 2" thick baffle. It really seals the back side of speaker. No pod so it blows off in sub dash , not colored in the slightest. 
I'll definitely re-use that location for lows on top of the other 2 sets of midbasses 
. Seems the only way to get a good 70-80hz responce is to have a lot of speakers playing it. And than go in and use phase controls against the other drivers to reinforce 70-80 at listening position. It's kinda freaky how you can manipulate things to a small extent. As long as the lead driver stays the same and is louder than the other drivers the ill effects are minimized. (Ringing in impulse and such)


----------



## Elgrosso

Ha ok you'll use them as reinforcement. Btw I just read a dirac paper about their unison version... maybe mini will deliver it one day 

That's cool because you'll be able to try either dual midbass or even midranges in there, with a very good mounting in all cases.

But, then what about your back 10"? Or you"ll put these ones in kick? 

I remember my dual midbass tentative, it was not bad at all, certainly sounded full with no dips/modes. But it also wasn't really clear. And they all had their own channel with ta eq etc
I didn't tune it a lot so maybe It could have been better, with sharper slopes or something (i had to boost them a lot to get something on just one or two octaves).
Well just that now I try to keep the number of drivers to the minimum.


----------



## oabeieo

I have a special FIR filter for the tens that play only 70 Q 1.4 


So nice being able to do this and FIR You could do a 20 way system and not have any lll phase issues .... it would be a ***** to tune tho lol 

I've got some really good Dirac papers for u 

So the eight measurements do you have something with phase and level setting they are not just frequency domain they also Are time domain 

I'll post up tonight I'm at work right now


----------



## oabeieo

Dirac email said:


> ## Reply ABOVE THIS LINE to add a note to this request ##
> Request Update	View the complete request history
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I apologize for the delay in answering, I did'nt answer immediately 'cause unfortunately I have no experience with in car Dirac Live tuning and it dropped down in the queue up to the point that I lost track of it... sorry :-(
> 
> In general the response is centered around 0dB, regardless of the actual power in the room.
> 
> That is, measuring the same system twice, at different levels, should in theory give the same set of graphs.
> My understanding is that if you calculate the area between the curve and the line y = 0 dB the resulting area is zero (where area above the line is positive, below the line negative)
> 
> Anyhow I don't think that your approach of pulling down the target curve is bad practice, I think it can be appropriate.
> 
> The first measurement is also used for setting the levels, the other eight measurements are used to infer which time-domain and frequency-domain properties are common to all measurements and can consequently be robustly compensated (and those that are not).
> 
> Mathias Johansson explains it here: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acou...tion-interview
> while a detailed document by Lars Johan Brännmark and Mikael Sternad is available here: http://diracdocs.com/ISEAT15_Brannmark_Sternad.pdf
> Best regards



That's one of the emails the links are great


----------



## Elgrosso

Thanks! I got good discussions with them too. Seems they’re really eager to know more about how their system works in car. I mean the minidsp team, they definitely know their stuff, but in car they need more feedback.
(Dirac, that masters all this, apparently doesn't give it)

Ok so it confirms the first is used for levels. Good because I use this one as a big reference. It’s just too hard to adjust levels by using the other 8 very different points (one at one feet of the driver, the other one at 6 feet for example).

The interview I think you posted it some time ago.
This pdf I didn't know, looks like the other one you posted but I’ll read it.
It was about how all measurements are also used in time domain, as a way to balance/compensate the aggressiveness of the filter.


----------



## oabeieo

So ....**** the old input attenuation. Yes I got it to sound good with default target and what not. 

This way sounds 100% better.......

This is my current tune . I have just enough boost at70hz to take up what Ive attenuated by dragging the target below. Than I gained up mids to get the nulls up to a point that can intersect with the target and let it do a massive cut and than meet the frequency responce line of horns....

I'm thoroughly enjoying this tune , no clipping it sounds fantastic 
In this pic I have 14-20k boosted. That sounded too bright but it's the pic I took , I'm actually listening to the same curve without the boost up top .....


images upload


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> ...
> 
> images upload


That’s crazy this look so close to my measurements!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> That’s crazy this look so close to my measurements!


Yeah I bet very similar systems and a car. 

It's crazy how Dirac fixes the 70hz null. I have most of the boost applied to the sub and it's boosting about 5db. On some songs other drivers start to sound distortion only when it's all the way up. If it's 3/4 volume it's nice and not missing anything. 

The 10s never sounded so good. I just wish the dash was not so dam reflective. 
I really prefer the sound up high but and starting to want something different 

Again.


----------



## oabeieo

I think I'm ready for a different set of speakers


----------



## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> I think I'm ready for a different set of speakers


Already!


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Yeah I bet very similar systems and a car.
> 
> It's crazy how Dirac fixes the 70hz null. I have most of the boost applied to the sub and it's boosting about 5db. On some songs other drivers start to sound distortion only when it's all the way up. If it's 3/4 volume it's nice and not missing anything.
> 
> The 10s never sounded so good. I just wish the dash was not so dam reflective.
> I really prefer the sound up high but and starting to want something different
> 
> Again.


Yeah same hole at 70hz (more on left), same shape for horns, same big humps on midbass etc. it looks like my system, but you have totally different setup!
Also we probably use similar xo.
But you're so right it fixes so well the midbass problem.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I think I'm ready for a different set of speakers


Haha!
So what, new house new car also? 
What do you have in mind?

I just saw these guys today: Celestion Debuts Production-Ready Axi2050 Axiperiodic Driver at Prolight+Sound 2017
Can these things work on our horns?
I doubt it since they would be limited by the horn mouth dimension, but damn' that looks cool. Bigmibadass and these!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Haha!
> So what, new house new car also?
> What do you have in mind?
> 
> I just saw these guys today: Celestion Debuts Production-Ready Axi2050 Axiperiodic Driver at Prolight+Sound 2017
> Can these things work on our horns?
> I doubt it since they would be limited by the horn mouth dimension, but damn' that looks cool. Bigmibadass and these!



I think I'm ready to do some rears or side speakers .... not 100 certain 



Man that is sick would be cool in a house. 
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....house ......


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> I think I'm ready to do some rears or side speakers .... not 100 certain


Oh yeah? Logic 7 etc, or bass enhancements?




oabeieo said:


> Man that is sick would be cool in a house.
> Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....house ......


What kind of horn size would this need?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Oh yeah? Logic 7 etc, or bass enhancements?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of horn size would this need?


Ha a BIG one. 2" jbl horn or something very large , 




Idk I'm getting board with it all in front. I want to do some rears I car turn on/off 


Yes some sort logig7 or effects for rears would be sweet 
Just for fun not critical listening


----------



## oabeieo

Got a real nice 2 seat tune yesterday .

I undid my APF on mids and let Dirac do it all . 

I played with level in Dirac and it is pretty alright.

Have to cut 200 a tad bit on each side because the 6.5 wants to horn load and pulls center over to one side but horns are dialed and midbass is good . 

Pretty slick


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Ha a BIG one. 2" jbl horn or something very large ,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Idk I'm getting board with it all in front. I want to do some rears I car turn on/off
> 
> 
> Yes some sort logig7 or effects for rears would be sweet
> Just for fun not critical listening


Makes me thing of something funny...
Since I drop L7 with sides an rears etc for the horns, I really don’t miss it.
But it’s just that, even with the actual system sometime it feels like I still have them, I have ambience all around.
Not on all tracks, but yeah it can clearly sound from behind, or from nowhere.
I know it's all psycho but it's cool.
Happened so many times with tracks that have police siren/firemen/chopper on top/other artefacts sounds, I’m lost! It can take few sec before I realize the sound is real from outside or on the track!


----------



## Elgrosso

Andy, how do you like those 10nw64? I'm thinking about them, they seem to be some of the best compact midbass while. What volume do you have for them? What kind of xo did you try?

I'm also interested by the Ciare 10ndh, real beast midbass but on winisd it doesn't give much more. Also it looks much bigger.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Andy, how do you like those 10nw64? I'm thinking about them, they seem to be some of the best compact midbass while. What volume do you have for them? What kind of xo did you try?
> 
> I'm also interested by the Ciare 10ndh, real beast midbass but on winisd it doesn't give much more. Also it looks much bigger.


THe 10Nw64-4 is a great midbass. And honestly (completely honest , I do not care about brand names or features I care about sound quality ) the 10G40-4 sounded better. It was heavier and had much more motor weight, but in the 100-400hz range the 10G40s sounded substantially better. BUT ......the B&C still sounds excellent. What I love about the B&C is it's lightweight! At 7lbs each compared to the 20 something the beyma was it's a great choice. 

In the upper midbass/midrange the b&c has more power. Where the g40 is more laid back. Under 100hz there performance is almost the same. In the right box either of them would be great down to 40hz in a sq tune and to 60hz in a high power tune. 


I use a JL audio HD600/4 bridged to the 10s and have gained somewhat low. These types woofers take power in a more linear way because they are more sensitive so there's a lot less power compression compared to a standard 10"woofer. Therefore you don't have to gain them up so much. Doesn't mean you don't want to give them power, they will be taking plenty of power at high levels. Just a low gain on them sounds great and makes eq work (especially boosts) manageable and the woofer responds much better to eq that way. 

Imho the 8" woofers are just as capable in a car. It's so easy to 100hz especially in an enclosure. Under 100hz where the big cabin null is strongly needs good placement of a speaker that reinforces the null more than surface area of a driver. However more surface area can help push into the null a bit. So it begs the question....do you need 10" midbasses or another midbass somewhere else to help heal that dip?


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> THe 10Nw64-4 is a great midbass. And honestly (completely honest , I do not care about brand names or features I care about sound quality ) the 10G40-4 sounded better. It was heavier and had much more motor weight, but in the 100-400hz range the 10G40s sounded substantially better. BUT ......the B&C still sounds excellent. What I love about the B&C is it's lightweight! At 7lbs each compared to the 20 something the beyma was it's a great choice.
> 
> In the upper midbass/midrange the b&c has more power. Where the g40 is more laid back. Under 100hz there performance is almost the same. In the right box either of them would be great down to 40hz in a sq tune and to 60hz in a high power tune.
> 
> 
> I use a JL audio HD600/4 bridged to the 10s and have gained somewhat low. These types woofers take power in a more linear way because they are more sensitive so there's a lot less power compression compared to a standard 10"woofer. Therefore you don't have to gain them up so much. Doesn't mean you don't want to give them power, they will be taking plenty of power at high levels. Just a low gain on them sounds great and makes eq work (especially boosts) manageable and the woofer responds much better to eq that way.
> 
> Imho the 8" woofers are just as capable in a car. It's so easy to 100hz especially in an enclosure. Under 100hz where the big cabin null is strongly needs good placement of a speaker that reinforces the null more than surface area of a driver. However more surface area can help push into the null a bit. So it begs the question....do you need 10" midbasses or another midbass somewhere else to help heal that dip?


I liked my 8g40 a lot too, but they don't fit my actual boxes anyway.
Hard to compare to my actual 8mbx because everything is different.

But no I don't really need bigger, in fact the 10NW doesn't look much different than the 8MBX I have right now once simulated (except at limits).
Well first the whole idea is to go 3 way, to try these pr170 in doors, no other place they could go.
So midbass' need to move to kick, I could put the actual 8" in small boxes there, in fact I should maybe start with that.
And I prefer neo for weight but mostly for motor size. 

So 8 or 10 almost the same. But with 12 it gets different
Bigger would allow me to use a different sub placement, like back in the trunk, because I could then use a lower XO while keeping the same impact.
Also maybe even subless, placed in the footwell like that I can imagine a bigger gain than on my actual sub in the middle of the car.
With a big midbass that is almost a sub (loss on first octave but gain on exclusive front bass, simpler system)


----------



## oabeieo

Nice. 


Check out the AE midbass. I think you'll like that one the best. 

Are u sure u want to use the pr170mo. It's a great Lil speaker but there's way better out there.


----------



## oabeieo

after taking a lesson on acoustics, I tryed using a compressor/limiter with really good success .


Some might think a compressor is bad and think it compresses dynamics, it doesn't compress dynamics , dynamics must have variables to be dynamic. They must have at least two extremes to be dynamic. For audio it's quiet and loud. So a compressor is nothing more than a variable volume control that turns down the volume as the volume goes up.

In live sound a microphone could have 140db dynamic range. And if someone yelled into the mic it could be pretty bad on the sound system and on everyone's ears , so one would add a limiter to cut it back right. 

Well in a car , our music has about 10-20db dynamic range that's broadcasted over a protocol that may have(16bit) 96db or (24bit)147db dynamic range but the music it self while playing may only have 10-20db variances that are picked up in the recordings. Even if it had 40db range it wouldn't matter. A limiter can be set to have a ratio that allows things to still get louder just not at such a fast rate. So you don't loose dynamics. That is not what a limiter can do. 

A limiter when used against a combfilter has the abaility to be set at the same rate the combfilters rise is at one specific comb peak. 

So I tryed it with really good success . 
On my one seat tune when I turn up the system loud the left side get too loud. 
The old way I would fix it was go and eq the comb peak down on the left side more than the right. That would get a good balance between left and right but made music sound incorrect and imbalanced plainly.

With use of the compressor I can set a ratio of 1.2 and set it to start turning down the volume as I turn up the volume , but it can be set to turn down the volume at a different rate as I am turning up the volume. A rate that can be matched to the combfilters shape. I have it set now at -56dbfs and as soon as volume goes to -55dbfs it starts turning down the volume on left speaker .

Now I can use the entire range on volume control and the sound image stays exactly the same and stage depth is consistent across volumes. Being now that I can leave the true tune on left speaker now it's sounds better and the whole sound field stays the same at all volumes. 

To me this is MOrE dynamic! Now when there's dynamics in the soundfield they aren't as badly screwed up by a combfilters. Meaning when the music is dynamic it more faithfully represents what we should be hearing , instead of a copied and delayed version. After all it truly is two speakers (or more) that are trying to play the same sound is where these combfilter issues arise. So if one wants to use two speakers to represent a sound source that is mono (like a person singing) they must have the same frequency response. 
So, don't change the frequency response of one of the speakers to tune down one side because of a combfilter, use a compressor and have it follow the shape of the combfilter or horn loaded peak issue that could cause biased soundstage at different levels. 

No wonder why a compressor is part of the 2x4HDs. I couldn't figure out what business a compressor had in a reproduction dsp. Now I know why and it was a dam good call! 
Best tool ever for car audio single seat two channel playback systems .


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Nice.
> 
> 
> Check out the AE midbass. I think you'll like that one the best.
> 
> Are u sure u want to use the pr170mo. It's a great Lil speaker but there's way better out there.


Well they got such a good reputation, I just want to hear for myself. 
And midrange in door would open up possibilities, 2118, PR & TD6H/M that I already have, or PHL later etc


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> after taking a lesson on acoustics, I tryed using a compressor/limiter with really good success .
> 
> 
> Some might think a compressor is bad and think it compresses dynamics, it doesn't compress dynamics , dynamics must have variables to be dynamic. They must have at least two extremes to be dynamic. For audio it's quiet and loud. So a compressor is nothing more than a variable volume control that turns down the volume as the volume goes up.
> 
> In live sound a microphone could have 140db dynamic range. And if someone yelled into the mic it could be pretty bad on the sound system and on everyone's ears , so one would add a limiter to cut it back right.
> 
> Well in a car , our music has about 10-20db dynamic range that's broadcasted over a protocol that may have(16bit) 96db or (24bit)147db dynamic range but the music it self while playing may only have 10-20db variances that are picked up in the recordings. Even if it had 40db range it wouldn't matter. A limiter can be set to have a ratio that allows things to still get louder just not at such a fast rate. So you don't loose dynamics. That is not what a limiter can do.
> 
> A limiter when used against a combfilter has the abaility to be set at the same rate the combfilters rise is at one specific comb peak.
> 
> So I tryed it with really good success .
> On my one seat tune when I turn up the system loud the left side get too loud.
> The old way I would fix it was go and eq the comb peak down on the left side more than the right. That would get a good balance between left and right but made music sound incorrect and imbalanced plainly.
> 
> With use of the compressor I can set a ratio of 1.2 and set it to start turning down the volume as I turn up the volume , but it can be set to turn down the volume at a different rate as I am turning up the volume. A rate that can be matched to the combfilters shape. I have it set now at -56dbfs and as soon as volume goes to -55dbfs it starts turning down the volume on left speaker .
> 
> Now I can use the entire range on volume control and the sound image stays exactly the same and stage depth is consistent across volumes. Being now that I can leave the true tune on left speaker now it's sounds better and the whole sound field stays the same at all volumes.
> 
> To me this is MOrE dynamic! Now when there's dynamics in the soundfield they aren't as badly screwed up by a combfilters. Meaning when the music is dynamic it more faithfully represents what we should be hearing , instead of a copied and delayed version. After all it truly is two speakers (or more) that are trying to play the same sound is where these combfilter issues arise. So if one wants to use two speakers to represent a sound source that is mono (like a person singing) they must have the same frequency response.
> So, don't change the frequency response of one of the speakers to tune down one side because of a combfilter, use a compressor and have it follow the shape of the combfilter or horn loaded peak issue that could cause biased soundstage at different levels.
> 
> No wonder why a compressor is part of the 2x4HDs. I couldn't figure out what business a compressor had in a reproduction dsp. Now I know why and it was a dam good call!
> Best tool ever for car audio single seat two channel playback systems .


Hum interesting, I never bothered to read more about that.
So far I tune with one listening level in mind and of course it's not the same fun if played lower/higher.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Well they got such a good reputation, I just want to hear for myself.
> And midrange in door would open up possibilities, 2118, PR & TD6H/M that I already have, or PHL later etc


2118h as a midrange, dood . That is the best pick .
I would definitely definitely go that route. 
That would be so so sick .


Haven't heard the Phl or the tdm . So can't say 
But the jbl sure would be sweet


----------



## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> Already!


It's been a year by god . I'm ready .....

I think I want to try some of the Ciare 
Or the AE for sure top of list


----------



## oabeieo

So the key to using the compressor correctly to not screw up dynamics is use a long attack time. 

I'm using 31ms , that way even the low frequency transients can come through and all the quick changes in audio signal are untouched.

In recording a long release will bring everything up , in playback a shorter release is preferred but not too short. I'm using 15ms but it depends on the variables .

So there's no real loss in dynamics. It simply just turns the volume down a tiny bit as volume is increased. 

Keep in mind , most recordings are compressed quite a bit to the point that total dynamic range is less than about 10db. So if there's at least 10db of available headroom, it will still come through, just at a lower level. 

It's not ideal ...no it's not. But in a car the combfilters effects are far far far worce than what soft knee compression will do to the sound. So it actually fixes more than it hurts as far as overall SQ is concerned. 

I have a ratio of 1.4 :1 which is very light compression. It barley does anything but it sure does keep the left and right spectral balance in tact and keeps the left side that becomes too loud at loud levels on point. 

Much better than eq down certain parts of combfilter on left at all volumes. 
When you do that the right sounds too loud until you turn up the volume . So the only way to enjoy your system is full blast. 

I would suggest this method is very good for dash mounted speakers . More non reflective locations may not have these issues and may not need this. But on the dash near the glass I'm certain this method is something to at least try and concider. 

In my two seat tune I am using a bit of compression on horns , making it drop the horns down a tiny bit at loud levels helps.


Richard clarks grand national used a compressor as well. And everyone knows that thing had plenty of dynamics. 
It's about controlling the power responce at specific locations. As you start to turn up the volume combfilters get deeper and taller. As well as amplitude shifts within the nodes. Being able to have a tiny tiny bit of control over that while not changing frequency responce is very nice. 

The 2x4HDs have it built in, I'm curious what other dsps have compression built in?


----------



## co_spgs_330ci

oabeieo: I'm new to this forum; can you tell me what shop you work out of and/or how to contact you? I'm looking for some suggestions as I upgrade from some old Alpine AI-Net equipment. Thanks! - Alan


----------



## oabeieo

Pm sent


Edit : just now saw th name. 
Thanks Alan yeah we should chat


----------



## oabeieo

Well after a day of listening to compressor is going to stay however I think I had too much. I turned it down to 1.1 and raised the threshold to -25dbfs so it only kicks on when it's super loud , than re applied some eq so it's a mix Of what I did before . Much less eq tho.

It's perfect now. (At least for today)


----------



## Elgrosso

Some good readings thx! There isn't any on the cdsp, maybe I'll try on the hd.
This makes me think of another path for improvments in future dsp.
Well it exists already with road eq etc but is pretty basic.
This is all about designing an eq per listening level and per setup/driver limits.
Imagine the time when we'll tune completely dynamically on the whole range? I mean different adjustment per loudness.
A good algorithm here would be super helpful.
And next, per tracks!


----------



## oabeieo

Yeah in some underdash horns the right horn can be too loud when up loud. , especially minis. That would be a perfect fix for that. 

In fact! 

I'm going back to underdash with minis just to try it 
(Serious)


----------



## oabeieo

So I ended up with a tiny tiny bit o compression 
It wasn't as cool as I thought but still helpful tame things at full power 

-15dbfs 1:1 75ms/100ms


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## oabeieo

Met a fine chap with a nice BMW . 
Pretty sweet old Skool setup. 
Might possibly be putting horns into it. That would be a fun system .

Can't wait to get settled definitely going to do a stereo meet this early summer ,
See what kind of Springs folks pop up


----------



## Elgrosso

Hey man, you got one week to finish the house, how's the garage now?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Hey man, you got one week to finish the house, how's the garage now?


Almost moved in all the way...


I got to go clean the old place and get that all situated , 
It's more work than I expected .

Soon.....soon. 
I am without audio at the moment , I lent my horns to someone. 
So I been listening to some jbl 4x4 horns with the 2408h

Actually sounds good up top.......I need to make a custome horn with a bigger mouth so I can get the uptop to really work right.

I want directivity control but need a more on axis horn....

I think I'm going to try making a horn. I suck at hornresp , but could waddle my way through it enough to get a basic design. I think I'll keep the jig so I can make new flares and such to experiment. 

I think if I can double the mouth height and keep the width and have a 8x3.5 in exit I can control the energy that wants to go up from the narrow mouth exit on the underdash horn. I'm 99% sure that's what I need to do.

Definitely want a similar shape as the underdash, seems it's shape controls directivity in the x axis good, just the y axis energy I need to expand more in the horn so it has better on axis behavior. 

I'm thinking a very similar shape as far as the outer edges of horn and as moves towards the middle of car stArts to expand to a bigger size exit with a more curved mouth. 

I need to join the windshield to the horn or get a directivity that is much more on axis. Or both . 

So.....before I go silly with kicks I think I want to try a new horn more.

upload png


It's dark ! I need to add Sheetrock , it's insulated tho. Which is great for this winter and sound proofing. I want to get sheet rock kinda bad.....hopefully I don't get distracted with this instead of stereos....we'll see  

I got the summer to play....I wanna make a horn


----------



## Elgrosso

Wow you want to try to build your own?! That's cool, I remember reading few nice posts here on how Eric explained the shape influence on directivity (without all details of course).
But for upper or under dash? Upper I would understand why you would want to open vertically, so maybe it reflects less from the windshield.
And "in" your dash, a la Mic10is, could you do it?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Wow you want to try to build your own?! That's cool, I remember reading few nice posts here on how Eric explained the shape influence on directivity (without all details of course).
> But for upper or under dash? Upper I would understand why you would want to open vertically, so maybe it reflects less from the windshield.
> And "in" your dash, a la Mic10is, could you do it?


Ha!  

I hope Mic knows that's just a joke. I like Mic a lot, he frikkin called it. 
Otoh - even tho he was right about the horns inability to control pattern on axis , I still beat the odds. It just took a **** ton of dsp to make it just alright. 

We all know the best systems are the simple ones and even with as much dsp as I am using , a simple two way with 1/2 the reflections and no fir would still sound better. 

What's weird is above 4K it doesn't matter if horns are up top or down low the sound is the same as far as sound field precepts goes. It's the 2.5k oactave that I really like to be uptop with the mid. Even tho it sounds better down low, I like it up there. wven with all the combfilters issues I like it, and it does sound much worce to be clear about it. But it's just me . I'm just a bit silly


----------



## oabeieo

Made a small video 
Just fiddling around , threw in the 2408h 

Dialed a sweet sounding curve in Dirac ......

https://youtu.be/nM5OQOUEZ98


----------



## sqnut

Are those horns on your dash? Try adding some delay to the horns and/or bring up the 500-2khz range selectively a bit. Listen for better dynamics, otherwise sounds pretty decent. Yeah sometimes one doesn't realize how loud it really is.


----------



## oabeieo

sqnut said:


> Are those horns on your dash? Try adding some delay to the horns and/or bring up the 500-2khz range selectively a bit. Listen for better dynamics, otherwise sounds pretty decent. Yeah sometimes one doesn't realize how loud it really is.


Hi sq  

I think your just hearing the horrible shortcomings of the iPhone mic

Dirac sets delays perfectly and FS is on point. 

I kinda wanna try getting a better mic for the iPhone and try making demo videos .....I wonder what would be a good one ....

Ideas?


----------



## Mic10is

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/151544-horns-top-dash-2.html


----------



## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/151544-horns-top-dash-2.html





Eric Stevens said:


> If you can couple the horn with the windshield and then treat the top of the dash with proper sound absorption foam to prevent compound reflections it should work excellent.
> 
> Eric




Anyone that has heard it likes it, quite a bit actually.


Mic what do you think would be a good horn shape for on axis? I'm thinking about attempting a mock up trial here soon  
Thx in advance


----------



## oabeieo

Maybe I took that post the wrong way. (I'm always so dam defensive )

Yeah I seen that truck before I can see all kinds of problems with that install with horns up top, it's a cool build for sure I still love it! However I bet it didn't sound right. 

The B series Mazda dash is very forward and would have had very bad PLD #s and the midbass looks farther than one wavelength away from a mini, (1k 1.125ft)

Seems PLD lower than 1 wavelength at crossover is in order to work right but more like 1/2 wavelength. 

On-axis the crossfire doesn't work as strong and there's gobs of off axis energy firing right into the glass, when I stick foam around the minis now it's better but I'm crossing at 1.6k with a 20db filter, and a PLD just at 4.4" so it works. The minis still crossfire nicely on axis , I just need to get the off axis off the mouth to calm down a tad bit, I'm thinking a taller mouth......but the general shape of a mini so it still crossfires, 

What you think?


----------



## sqnut

oabeieo said:


> The B series Mazda dash is very forward and would have had very bad PLD #s and the midbass looks farther than one wavelength away from a mini, (1k 1.125ft)
> 
> Seems PLD lower than 1 wavelength at crossover is in order to work right but more like 1/2 wavelength.


Isn't all that irrelevant once you can time the drivers?


----------



## thehatedguy

No horns are really designed to be on axis.


----------



## oabeieo

sqnut said:


> Isn't all that irrelevant once you can time the drivers?


no not entirely, 

The dispersion pattern on axis tho not as strong as off still pushes a lot of energy to the other side of car. So it very much plays on ITD at that point, meaning if your the driver in the United States the right ear gets a lot lot more energy from both left and right horns, because so much energy gets pushed sideways, and the shape of the horn needs them to be firing streight forward so you can't tow it in to compensate. Your right ear has the *least* PLD being it's almost in the center of the car, so you add too much timing control to let's say the left now when the left and right energy combine and sum acoustically it will have timing problems (especially for the right ear) so the dispersion really depends on a natural low PLD. which is why you can't just stick horns on dash of any car and just dsp your way to success. You would need a different horn to do that right. ImE , shouldn't add more delay with horns than the difference between your right ear and the center of car (which is usually only a couple inches) 

So the short answer , no you can't, at least not entirely. On axis PLD needs to be at or lower than the difference between your right ear and center of car (or center of horn mounting in acoustical space)


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> No horns are really designed to be on axis.



Heya how ya been?  

That's crazy you say that I just read that even edgarhorns are meant to be listened slightly off axis. and mounted above the listening space......


I think we don't want to hear directly down the throat no? 

Do u think the car horns being non streight entry and having a reflector mitigates this at all?


----------



## thehatedguy

Been really tough times here (divorce with kids involved)...posted little thing in OT about things. On a positive note, got some BNIB TAD TD2001s and they'll fit my car with the big body horns.

No, we don't want to listen directly on axis. No, the reflector is there to realign the wave front especially for the high frequency. I think you would need to change the coverage angle of the throat and/or the crossfire of the throat to do


----------



## sqnut

oabeieo said:


> no not entirely,
> 
> The dispersion pattern on axis tho not as strong as off still pushes a lot of energy to the other side of car. So it very much plays on ITD at that point, meaning if your the driver in the United States the right ear gets a lot lot more energy from both left and right horns, because so much energy gets pushed sideways, and the shape of the horn needs them to be firing streight forward so you can't tow it in to compensate. Your right ear has the *least* PLD being it's almost in the center of the car, so you add too much timing control to let's say the left now when the left and right energy combine and sum acoustically it will have timing problems (especially for the right ear) so the dispersion really depends on a natural low PLD. which is why you can't just stick horns on dash of any car and just dsp your way to success. You would need a different horn to do that right. ImE , shouldn't add more delay with horns than the difference between your right ear and the center of car (which is usually only a couple inches)
> 
> So the short answer , no you can't, at least not entirely. On axis PLD needs to be at or lower than the difference between your right ear and center of car (or center of horn mounting in acoustical space)


You're way overthinking things and I agree that the horns should not be on the dash, that's why I asked you in my first post. YMMV


----------



## oabeieo

sqnut said:


> You're way overthinking things and I agree that the horns should not be on the dash, that's why I asked you in my first post. YMMV


Not overthinking anything. 
Sorry if you don't understand it. 
Get a set of minihorns and run as many sims as you can 

It's hard to explain dispersion patterns on something when the other party has no experience with what your trying to define. 
It's like trying to explain what something should sound like to a deaf person. Lol 

Man I wish you would get a set. I bet you would love them .


----------



## oabeieo

Imagine a speaker that plays on average 10db louder on the other side of the car than the side it's mounted. 

No joke 10db.....if you understand how ITD and IID work than it should be pretty easy to grasp


But I guess from a single seat standpoint your right sq you could just set levels and set timing for one seat. It is not optimal though


----------



## oabeieo

So , talking to Scott today he inspired me to try something 

And by god it works quite nice. 

Got the morel playing to 350 
Left the dash the same , haven't had time to run Dirac off of it
Took the 10s out (temporarily) 

I need to redo crossovers and run Dirac but it sounds so much better. 
This really made the two seat tune on frikkin point. I'm liking it tons

Only drawback, the small sealed boxes make the morel cones make noise below 60hz so had to use a classic LR4 (linearized) at60 and it gets with it 

Now that I have a taste I can't wait to start fab on kicks 
Ill use an 8, not 100% on which one yet but dam. 

I went and started tooling up and got some fab tools for the house (router , jig, saw , air)
Need to get a small table saw ......at least I can route now. 

Got my glue and resin , duraglass , bonds , etc too.....just need a few more things.

It's too bad I can't just do it at work, well I could but it would sorta suck) 
Doing it at home will be nice and make it fun. 

Anyway pics of test enclosures 
















image hosting 15mb


----------



## Babs

Man that's great stuff. So a plan for sealed 8's in the kicks then? Will be interesting build for sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## danno14

> Took the 10s out


Those 8's look good there! I'll take the 10's whenever you're ready


----------



## Elgrosso

You found some 8" pipe caps? Damn' I searched that for hours at my local home depot


----------



## Babs

Kick build in a little Honda. Step by step please Sir.. Glassing doesn't scare me but the wire moving and hood release stuff looks like an absolute PITA. Inspire me! Hahaha . The thought of a sealed kick setup though without having to make holes where Honda didn't intend them is appealing. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

Babs said:


> Kick build in a little Honda. Step by step please Sir.. Glassing doesn't scare me but the wire moving and hood release stuff looks like an absolute PITA. Inspire me! Hahaha . The thought of a sealed kick setup though without having to make holes where Honda didn't intend them is appealing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ha! 

well , you got me talking about a setup I had on hand, got to thinking and was like, hell im talking myself into it more than you...lol (j.k) 

So far I like it quite a bit not as much big easy midbass as the 10s have them working 10x as hard as the 10s to get the same output but dam lil speakers keeping up. Bridged 600/4 on the playing to 60 , yeah they getting a ass whooping but it hangs.......

For a non horn system it would be perfect, I have at least 10db of sensitivity to make up by using them. The hoodlatch and small area will be tough but heck look at Erin's car, I mean or steves van, I think I can squeeze a 8 in a Honda if they can fit 10s


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Been really tough times here (divorce with kids involved)...posted little thing in OT about things. On a positive note, got some BNIB TAD TD2001s and they'll fit my car with the big body horns.
> 
> No, we don't want to listen directly on axis. No, the reflector is there to realign the wave front especially for the high frequency. I think you would need to change the coverage angle of the throat and/or the crossfire of the throat to do


The big D oh man  I'm so sorry. 
Been there , it sucks. 


BNIB 2001s  wowzers .....
(Big time jealous) I need get diaphragms for mine yet. At 1700$ I've been a lil slow to do that with the house purchase and all. You've got to do the install on those. 

So coverage angle in the throat, I'm guessing taller being all the horns I've seen for on-axis have a much taller body all together: 
I wish I knew how to hornresp better. Such a complicated program at times and even tho I can widdle through parts of it I always seem to get some sort of error and it diminishes my confidence.


----------



## oabeieo

Guys, look at this , 
I chased this for a while , 
Is this a bad 2408h? 
How in the hell did the gap get off centered?

I thought it was Dirac playing distorted sweeps , was this the whole time wtf 
So confused . 


How could the pole piece be off center, wtf this doesn't make sence it's fixed to bottom plate like it's all one piece but it's aligned with the neo so wtf .....

This doesn't make any sence it scratched the coil and rubbed it 






photo hosting sites


----------



## oabeieo

Put the 4552nd on. Now that I know it's not the amp I bridged one of the focal amps on the BMS ......ahhh it gets silly loud now. 

Now let's see if I can blow out a BMS driver ...

What's weird is I've always been told compression drivers are almost impossible to blow. :/
that's weird I now have 4 sets of CDs with problems....yeah not so. 

Cd10nd = bad diaphragm 
2408h= bad diaphragm 
Radian450bp = bad diaphragm 
De500= bad diaphragm 

I just ordered a new diaphragm for the beyma and a replacement 2408H. 
This is just strange


----------



## oabeieo

Took out the 4552nd 

Put in es audio pro driver just for fun. 

I'm tired of tuning now. I'm glad I fixed the mystery 
Of the jbl but sad I have to wait for new one to get here. 

It just sucks every time I get a really really good tune goin on something ****s up.
Uuuuggghhhhhh 
I need take a week off of it and start some fab. I'm loosing motivation again.


----------



## Yourconfused

I have a 2015 Fit that I am trying to get a decent sounding system in and just ran across this thread. I can only see txt on my work pc, because gay, but look forward to reading all 4310,000 posts in it so far. lol


----------



## thehatedguy

How do you like Eric's driver compared to the Celestion and JBL?


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> How do you like Eric's driver compared to the Celestion and JBL?


I haven't heard anything as good as the jbl in that price point. 
I've got a sweet place in my heart for it tho and it's biased 

Eric's driver plays higher and lower hands down and uses much less eq. 
I like Eric's driver for its low order roll off on the bottom and tons of high end sparkle , in fact I've had to cut 16-20k (weird right) 

The jbl has no breakup modes what so ever and it's 1.6k to5kz will fry your arm hairs if uncontrolled ( in a good way) 

The jbl has amazing polar responce on Eric's horn. Best I've used yet.
Just can't play below 1.6 and rolls off at 14k 

The celestion to me reminds me a lot of Eric's pro driver. Very similar sound. 
The compneo sounds noticeably better than the celestion. Although both have very similar polars but Eric's driver has better clearer bottom end. Obviously 
(Were talking the CDX 1-1425 right). That's the only celestion CD I have at the moment


----------



## thehatedguy

I hooked one up on the display yesterday and thought it sounded damn fine. It's no TAD...but it's not 15 pounds and the size of a CS130D alternator either. 

I was surprised and the top end of Eric's driver...clean and extremely detailed. It needed a little EQ (probably a XO would have fixed that since I had it running near fullrange), but nothing major.


----------



## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> I hooked one up on the display yesterday and thought it sounded damn fine. It's no TAD...but it's not 15 pounds and the size of a CS130D alternator either.
> 
> I was surprised and the top end of Eric's driver...clean and extremely detailed. It needed a little EQ (probably a XO would have fixed that since I had it running near fullrange), but nothing major.


Dood no joke, 
It's my when all else fails I know I can easily get a solid tune from it. 

I try different stuff but always seem to go back to the compneo


----------



## oabeieo

Yourconfused said:


> I have a 2015 Fit that I am trying to get a decent sounding system in and just ran across this thread. I can only see txt on my work pc, because gay, but look forward to reading all 4310,000 posts in it so far. lol



Oh nice!

Yeah the 15 has smaller side windows, could fit a 4"/1" up there and some kicks or doors 

My advise, don't play them firing into each other, the suckout at315 is outrageous, I would have them more on axis and you should be fine. 

Overall the width of the car makes it so easy to get good even sound from side to side without massive changes in polarity between sides. 
Bad thing is the 315hz suckout really screws up impact in a very bad way. 

The kicks work nice , and under back seat firing forward works nice too..

I can almost completely kill the suckout with a underdash driver firing down at floor. ..........

I'm thinking some sort of under dash /sub dash pod for a 6.5 in a bigger sealed box and not do kicks. Play to to 400 and than keep the upper dash set up.....
Not 100-% but it's going that direction. 


Please post pics when you start it


----------



## oabeieo

The tru line amp didn't work, had noise need to send it back , I know they'll fix it they awesome . 

So I hooked up the tube pre amp to focal amp to help with the Dirac lost gain. It does the trick. Not super fancy on the tube sound. It adds distortion and a weird reverb to certain frequencies. But meh it does the trick for now. 

Got another set of 6g40's from a dood on here , great deal and they like brand new. 

I'll try those with the jbl and put the 6nd430s in kicks ....
For now I have the es pro driver installed. What a nice sounding driver. Super pleased with it so far. 











images upload


----------



## oabeieo

Rockin the cd10nd compression drivers 
Have a new found respect for this driver
It's a MF to tune but dam it's got some serious
Motor strength ........... :thinking2: (electromagnetism ahhhhhh)


Took the subs out, 
Running the 10s 
6nd430 in kicks 
6g40nd uptop 
Cd10nd uptop 

The beyma mid is viscous as well. It doesn't like the shallow slope 
With a 100hz fs, but I don't play it to its max or at least to its breakup point. 

With subs out the 10s play all the way down , sound excellent even with a rolloff around 100hz. Dirac does such a nice job. Sq is better subless, I think maybe a 10" sub up front is all I'll want...... 15"s not going back in. That's a definite. 

I hardly had them on They played down in the 10-20hz range so well but I don't think I'll miss it for having to have it in the back and the weight. 
Anyway with the subs out Diracs behavior for tuning without the sub on sure did lock in a much deeper and fuller sounding midbass. 

If I do decide to do a sub again, I won't tune Dirac with it , I'll just run it a 3way and let Dirac dial the fronts. Than add the sub and make my own fir adjustments after Dirac correction, won't be hard at LF. Take some measurements and use rephase and a 2x4HD. Especially with a he way REW is now integrating rephase , 
It is becoming easier and easier to build a rephase file that doesn't take hours and hours to accomplish. 








photo upload sites


----------



## SQram

Is that a gap between the driver and the horn body? 

I'd file/notch the bodies so they mate up seamlessly, pretty common mod with the mini 1E bodies.



oabeieo said:


>


----------



## oabeieo

SQram said:


> Is that a gap between the driver and the horn body?
> 
> I'd file/notch the bodies so they mate up seamlessly, pretty common mod with the mini 1E bodies.


Lol , yes it is! 

I've filed a old set of minibodies to accommodate this driver
But since sold that set, I made a cardboard/gaskettape gasket for this one
You can see it in pic. 

I don't plan on keeping the cd10nd on there, I will be using the es compneo as a permanent driver, so I didn't want to file out this set. I'm sure it a affects sound , don't care still sounds good. Just want keep this set bodies clean 

Good eye


----------



## nadams5755

oabeieo said:


>


i gaffers-taped off the back so no gunk would get in during shipping. they were only a month old before i pulled them.


----------



## oabeieo

nadams5755 said:


> i gaffers-taped off the back so no gunk would get in during shipping. they were only a month old before i pulled them.


Lol, yeah I saw that. 

I used diffrent tape and a piece of cardboard to cover the vent slightly to raise the Q just a Scosche 


Basicly rolled a piece of cardboard and slid it in the vent to make the vent smaller, than folded the ends over the backplate and taped it down so it can't fall in and hit the cone.


----------



## oabeieo

Got a brand new 2408h

Put beyma mids in kicks and the 6nd back up to

Trying things backwards, and having some unexpected good results 
I have the 18sound crossed at250 and the jbl at1.6k
On RTA when both playing acoustically they almost meet up.
Threw the mid in kick and have a narrow bandpass 1oactave 

So far it's clearer by quite a bit and the midrange is better by a lot. 

Have to try it for a few days to see if I'll like it 
It's way way clearer in mid, 100% less reflections 








image hosting over 5mb


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## oabeieo

The new 2408h is so dope!

The car has never sounded better.

Notice finally a ****ing clean as **** impulse?

Well I read a holy **** ton about fir and phase and 
I've been doing things right, but wrong at same time.


So , after taking a **** ton of measurements in car, 
I've noticed filter ringing. Lots of it! And you'll never giess the cause the whole time.

It was the bloody pre tune. 

Every time I would add peq and fir the fir would ring, not pre ring. That's different.

I would have small pre rings because of my 1st order fir on the hp of the mid, and it was inaudible, you could see the speaker midrange move at20-30hz when playing sweeps and hear a echoing up higher in harmonics but would go away once hit about 60hz (tap resolution picked up. The 2042t wasn't rolling my filter off right at low frequencies and caused a pre ring. So I made a 1 oactave overlapping filter centered at100, with a 12db slope which rolls off at50....got the to work no pre ring now at all....


But the ringing from peq was horrendous. Here's why.

1 I have 3 dsps after Dirac, Dirac was trying to correct phase, all the diffrent phase fingerprints (if you will) were making Dirac try to solve it in a very non linear fashion. 
After making measurements I couldn't understand why I was getting a **** ton of smearing in the post IR. 

I know the FFT is not too long, that's just silly talk with no more than 2042t per output with 6144 behind it, that's not even 13,0000 samples. 

So , I took ALL the peq out, ran Dirac and ****ing magic happened.

Added a small post tune to all dsps and made all dsps have same peq settings and now phase is perfect and have just a finch tiny small minimum phase bumps from minimal peq. 

The vocal sounds spooky real, dead center both sides ....it's dooe!

Now. I want to add the peq in fir and do it all as a simple 2ch fir for everything and just divide it up amongst a 4ch keeping my fir crossovers as well. 

With loopback you can see how ****ed up a filter can ring when measurements are taken as far as the IR. It's crazy how even just a tiny bit of IIR peq drastically moves phase of everything, especially in the diffuse region of 500-1khz actually up way higher, but that's where things were getting mashed together. Not to mention Dirac was actually doing what it thought was right based on its input signal. It didn't know there was an electrical anomaly between channels. 

So....run dirac no peq. No matter what, if you do use peq it has to be across all channels including the sub. It will still fix that, as long as it's all the same everywhere. I just had way way better results with no peq added. 

dammit , that was a long and drawn out learning revolution. It kicked my ass every step of the way,


----------



## oabeieo

Oh and I took the pokie ass kick pods out. 

Just 10s, 6s and horns. No sub, 3way not 4way.

Still have the sub channel and amp hooked up just no sub.
The 10s play to 20 just fine , no need for a sub and it makes the sound better ....

I think I just want a small 10" sub that I can turn off just for when I want to party 
The 15s will never go back in. 

That also screwed up the overall sq , the 15s were fun but ruined the LF presence that I'm getting now with just the 10" midbass ....or shall I say 10" bass speakers


----------



## oabeieo

Here is an excellent write up someone did.
Got me to go back to the basics and start over. 


https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...nerate-amplitude-and-time-domain-corrections/


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Oh and I took the pokie ass kick pods out.
> 
> Just 10s, 6s and horns. No sub, 3way not 4way.
> 
> Still have the sub channel and amp hooked up just no sub.
> The 10s play to 20 just fine , no need for a sub and it makes the sound better ....
> 
> I think I just want a small 10" sub that I can turn off just for when I want to party
> The 15s will never go back in.
> 
> That also screwed up the overall sq , the 15s were fun but ruined the LF presence that I'm getting now with just the 10" midbass ....or shall I say 10" bass speakers


That must be cool, no sub and not needing one, my dream!
Not surprised less drivers sound better, but about the PEQS, I never had this kind of issue myself.
Sure if they’re too aggressive it can sound silly, but I have no need to go extreme pre-dirac.

Once I re-install everything I might try something with the 8x12, just for fun.
By using 2ch per driver with a steep XO in the middle, so 20 PEQS, just to check how it works... bad probably 

And thx for the link, will read that soon


----------



## oabeieo

Peq is fine , as long as it affects every speaker for about an oactave past it's crossover 
LF even more


Just using ANy peq on single drivers and having another driver within 2oqctaves or so will be disaster , and as lower frequency goes it needs to be on all the speakers .....


Import a measurement into rephase , make some IIR adjustments 
Watch how drastically phase is moved all over the entire spectrum 

It's astonishing 
Than think about all the peq you have on other drivers 

Try it


----------



## oabeieo

So, 

Did a retune , this time I cranked the gains to 1/4 way up on amps.
As much as I hate high gaining it gets super loud now. 
I am finally getting some impact back

Gains f$&@!ng suck. 
I wish amps just had unity gain and no other setting.
Or better yet, I wish amps had a industry standardization to just have one input impedance,
And all dsp and headunit makers used the specs for that. 

Everything would just be gained to perfection and no one would ever have much noise and everything would just sound good, nobody would be able to use mix match amps of different power output without upstream control

Or better yet, a standard hi def super high bit like USB or hdmi go into amps and no gains , 
Just a digital output control like JL amps have. Idk I'm rambling 

Gains are necessary crude evil we must endure 
There must be a better way. 
Single ended just sucks period


----------



## oabeieo

My 2408h love affair continues.


----------



## oabeieo

I think it's finally getting good enough to finish my custom.
Cranked the gains up on horns and re tuned. That's all I was missing.
I just wanted laid back I guess but couldn't have it and have it sound the way I want. 
So my ears will ring a little if I play it loud now. Dang it was trying to avoid that, so I need to learn to keep it down. 

Tonight my ears were ringing very loudly for about 1/2hr. Not good , scares me!
I was jammin the new flor album (which is bad ass if you give it a chance) start to finish.
Anyway, yeah......I need to keep it down


----------



## LumbermanSVO

The downside of a very low distortion system is that it is VERY easy to play it stupid loud and not realize just how loud it is. The lack of distortion can be quite deceiving.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> So,
> 
> Did a retune , this time I cranked the gains to 1/4 way up on amps.
> As much as I hate high gaining it gets super loud now.
> I am finally getting some impact back
> 
> Gains f$&@!ng suck.
> I wish amps just had unity gain and no other setting.
> Or better yet, I wish amps had a industry standardization to just have one input impedance,
> And all dsp and headunit makers used the specs for that.
> 
> Everything would just be gained to perfection and no one would ever have much noise and everything would just sound good, nobody would be able to use mix match amps of different power output without upstream control
> 
> Or better yet, a standard hi def super high bit like USB or hdmi go into amps and no gains ,
> Just a digital output control like JL amps have. Idk I'm rambling
> 
> Gains are necessary crude evil we must endure
> There must be a better way.
> Single ended just sucks period


Yeah I agree gains sucks. All digit and some internal magic that pre-adjust itself, that would be nice. Sure it would still need our hand for fine-tuning but at least it could be from the seat!
I have no idea why it doesn't exist yet but I’m sure there are some good reasons.
Well the JBL MS amps had a an auto-gain, + some sort of output level and it worked very well. So easy to adjust like on our dsp, and as precise.


----------



## oabeieo

The jbl love fest is over. For now....

Mounted up the es compneo. 
This time I tryed my new no peq method and I built two custom fir for horns and mids 
I did the math (with some fir calc help) made it so they intersect with a 1 oactave overlapping filter centered at 1.3khz 

So the hp rolls off 6db at1.6khz and stays flat until 800hz than rolls of all the way with a 36db slope all linear phase.
The mid starts at its -6db at 800 and than 42db slope at 1.6k 

Than in Dirac I have centered at 3.6k dropped 6db below the house curve down...

I'm liking this a ton. Definitely keep it for a min


----------



## oabeieo

image hosting 20mb


----------



## Elgrosso

Nice results.
I'm curious, have you tried a roundover on the mouth, "homster" style, but on top?
Or some way to fill the empty space to the glass.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Nice results.
> I'm curious, have you tried a roundover on the mouth, "homster" style, but on top?
> Or some way to fill the empty space to the glass.


Yeah 

I actually made a few different versions. 
It definitely helps and works good, just big and ugly and I still like the way it sounds better when the mid can get a taste of 1khz so it's really not needed that much. 

The horn doesn't really need terminating unless your playing down at the horns LF limit at full power. I'm well above that, and what little Lows I get coming from the horn is reduced power so it doesn't snap or bark at all. 

The big Pyle waveguide sounds the best, I don't like it doesn't have much pattern control (I like horns better) but it sounds phenomenal on axis. It's just a big giant waveguide and I can't see out the window. 

So I need to make my own........time .....
Been working 70hrs a week and 6kids ......I'll get there


----------



## Elgrosso

I hear you. I'm sure you tried, was lazy to read older posts 
today I tried few things like that, like round foam on the mouth, big plan of foam on adjacent panels, or inside the mouth > change were really subtile, even crossed at 1Khz.
And since like you I play it higher there's no point. I will just make sure oit;s all smooth around and that's it, for peace of mind.

What Pyle was it?
I ordered the 715, just because I’m curious how is its directivity.
I wanna try just for learning.

I must say the more I read about horns/waveguide the more I want to build one too!
It's really intriguing, and honestly there’s not so much material online.
Sure you can find all kind of math stuff that I don't want to read (and probably can't anymore), but much less illustration on real life use. 
I’ve seen many threads on diverse HiFi forums, from PB of course, and Eric here that explained a lot here, but I guess I just want to hear by myself again.

Next natural step would be the unity horn, but that's really a new set of constrains!


----------



## oabeieo

Holy smokes! 

You could make your footwell a unity horn all together.
.....

:thinking2:

That would be never done before in a car down to 50hz and super cool


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Holy smokes!
> 
> You could make your footwell a unity horn all together.
> .....
> 
> :thinking2:
> 
> That would be never done before in a car down to 50hz and super cool


Haha, you bet I thought about it!
No way with 2x8" or even 2x6", but maybe with smaller midranges.
Sure this would need some metal cutting too!

I don't know why John didn't try already, well maybe he did but I;ve only seen on dash stuff.
Footwell is the place to go for this!


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Haha, you bet I thought about it!
> No way with 2x8" or even 2x6", but maybe with smaller midranges.
> Sure this would need some metal cutting too!
> 
> I don't know why John didn't try already, well maybe he did but I;ve only seen on dash stuff.
> Footwell is the place to go for this!



So last night I was so so tired from working a ton 6 days workweeks 
I was sitting in the car thinking what I should do, and had the system on kinda quiet.

I was concentrating on listening for the combfilters (which is pretty hard to not hear) the reverbant midrange right smack in the middle of the 800hz band bouncing around the glass is so LOuD! Dirac really truly does quite an amazing job at using the combfilters ringings and masking it to be a part of the music but it's masking. All it does is change its pitch to match the frequency (phase) but the combfilters remain. And it's so so loud. At low volumes you can actually hear the midrange bouncing around and reverberating. 

That's it! No more I'm so sick of this sound. I love the up high sound so much but this echoed midrange I'm over! I'm. So over it! 
I am taking my pillars off and doing a mid in the corner of windscreen under the horn . I'm going to carefully angle it so the windshield doesn't screw it up. 
I might use the pillars as a 2nd midbass , it reinforces 80hz excellent, but no more of axis mid, 

It really sucks


----------



## Elgrosso

Vertical MTM! Or rather WHW here  Cool idea
You can build a strong enough pillar?

What about a good coax in the corner here, like maybe 4 or 5"? With or without the little waveguide lip inside. That could be cool too in this place!


----------



## oabeieo

The problem is the transfer functions between left and right are so different,
Even with a mixed phase correction it only makes it listenable , I want perfect!

I need to make the transfer functions more equal from side to side. 
Than things will get good..


----------



## oabeieo

Here it is , 
Sorry for delay, right when I was going to go tune one of the kids ruined my break and haven't had time since 



Did some more tuning and got ole' Dirac process down pat.

So, I got a really good two seat tune , Dirac on sofa mode.....
And got a really nice 1seat tune using chair , 

On the one seat tune ,I have found that I shouldn't use any pre time alignment, 
Let it do all the time alignment, so Dirac sets levels and timing automatically, and will undo any time alignment you may be using on some drivers , 

So , a small pre tune only to cut peaks between the combfilters where the dash driver is horn loading , (for me that's 1197hz Q 5.4 cut -10db) than a small pre cut where there's acoustical interference between the two drivers playing together (for me 391hz Q 15 cut 6.6db and again at 782hz Q 16 cut 3.3db) two different issues, one caused by speaker loading in the corner of dash one caused by the left and right channels combining. 

There's a whole bunch of little issues in between, Dirac corrected those great. 

So I also set the 1st measurement at my nose area and instead of following the box it shows for chair , the measurements that are on the right of me I extended out to the box was more centered in the car dimensions, 

So the right measurements were made in the middle of the passenger seat area and the left measurements were made in the middle of the driver seat area. 

So basicly did the box as if I took the first measurement in the dead center of car, except the first measurement was actually at my nose. 

This worked much much much better. 
Being the transfer function is so different on the mids it worked better to move the mic where the left and right measurements had a much more similar transfer function. This let Dirac eq the left and right speakers in a much more even way. Meaning the eq changes it makes to each channel is more similar, 

I like it it works better, 

So after Dirac all I do is lower the left side 1.6db to move the psychoacoustic image to the right a tiny bit, being the timing is already done perfectly by Dirac , Dirac just blows the levels part of the left side because it thinks your sitting between the speakers and sets levels as if you want the singer in front of you, which I do not I want it between the speakers, timing is set, so level down a tiny bit and minimum phase dictates the rest and moves the image perfectly......


----------



## Elgrosso

Ho man something really strange happened to me. I just read your post and was surprised by your comment on TA off centered etc. I was about to reply but before that I quickly went to my car to check the settings, to be sure I won't BS.

Played some tune tracks with extreme left to extreme right going through center etc...
And I was like WTF???? the center is in front of me!
For 5 min I tried all center tracks I have, thinking wow what just happened, did I persuade myself that my center was a real center for last 2 months when in fact it was in front of me???? Couldn't believe it... 
OMG I checked all settings again and again, reloaded them cause sometime the mini doesn;t apply them right, checked if I touched input gains or eq, checked dirac filters etc. > same! 
And when I was about to go to the trunk for amp gains I finally remember...

Last friday I played with the phone settings when I went back from Andy's demo (with the balance and mono to check midbass).
And the balance was left off! like one step to the left!
Yeahh I'm only half a moron!! :laugh:
I can assure you that was a strange moment, cause I know the power of psycho acoustic. 

So finally,
I always use my nose, head pulled back so it's near real center of my head during listening. Chair or sofa like you did, since I always tune for 1 seat.
On pretune as for Driac, and as a result the center is always in the center of the dash, never in front of me.
So far never had to change levels after.
Post dirac I don't do much, sometime few quick tests on the dsp, to decide what to adjust on the pre-tune and restart dirac.
But I also never let Dirac TA everything from scratch, I'll try, to see if I get the same result than you, meaning in front of me.


Edit: Where can I get this great tuner tshirt?


----------



## oabeieo

My wife got it online , some obscure site after searching, I'll ask her to look on your history 


So, you need to do a retune. 

I have been doing extensive Dirac results analysis, running Dirac and using a loopback out of the Dirac right into REW , I've studied its behavior and this is how it works.

So it won't do any narrow Q boosts under 1k , instead it moves frequency dependent timing between drivers to fix why there's a high Q Dip at that frequency, above 1k it will surly boost highQ 

So the timing it uses works astonishingly well. It's the levels it uses that blows it for car. But that's a easy fix after Dirac , my car is fairly narrow and I use a 1.6db attenuation on the left and it centers it nicely. 

Than on the left I have a high q cut at 1179hz on the left, I have the high q cut as a part of the fir for the left mid only , so the left mid is a linear phase 699t LR2 crossover at 1400hz with a compneo and a mini 


Anyway, right now it's the ****. I'm loving it 

Pre tune is some cuts small cuts at the peaks of FR between 250-1k and only cutting half of the peak , and a small amount of eq at crossover between mid and horn to make them sound right together but I made them sound only half right because I know Dirac will fix it the rest of the way, Dirac works better like that I've found as well. 

No TA against left and right, small amount of TA against of same side speakers to help acoustical alignment is ok , but only half way, (again it will use the sum and make a better correction so half way is perfect) 

Post tune , a 1.6db cut on the left side completely all driver go equally down (that's important) than a tiny bit of minimum phase eq again at that nasty horn loaded mid area at 1179hz (1 or 2db more) and that's it. 

Pretty dam consistent, and you can tell it's right , ambiance doesn't collapse , stays solid up loud and doesn't have any wired break ups up high (keeping target below the responce above 1k) 

Try that, and also try this, (makes a sick chair tune with horns) 

Do chair , take 1st measurement at nose , 

Do the left and right mic spots where it says to put them , and the forward measurements in the center of you and passenger seat , 
That helped A LOT! It really made the horns sound the same and evened out the tuning of the psychoacoustic image a lot, especially up in the 1.4-3khz band. 

The uneven dispersion of the minis screws with Dirac algo , doing that greatly stabilizes its algo and gets it right down and dope ass real sounding. 

It gives it a much bigger piece of what the horns are doing in the spectrum of the room. 

Even tho your not sitting in the passenger seat your ears absolutely hear the sound over there. Make that a part of its averaging. 

Also post Dirac it might be good to go to your dsp for midbass , put a high Q boost at +16db and run the frequency slider up and down the passband for midbass (with Dirac engaged) and listen for where you midbass cabinets are ringing too loud, do a 2-4db cut at that frequency with a Q around 3-6 depending on frequency of ringing, lower frequencies higher Q , and enjoy !!


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> My wife got it online , some obscure site after searching, I'll ask her to look on your history
> 
> 
> So, you need to do a retune.
> 
> I have been doing extensive Dirac results analysis, running Dirac and using a loopback out of the Dirac right into REW , I've studied its behavior and this is how it works.
> 
> So it won't do any narrow Q boosts under 1k , instead it moves frequency dependent timing between drivers to fix why there's a high Q Dip at that frequency, above 1k it will surly boost highQ
> 
> So the timing it uses works astonishingly well. It's the levels it uses that blows it for car. But that's a easy fix after Dirac , my car is fairly narrow and I use a 1.6db attenuation on the left and it centers it nicely.
> 
> Than on the left I have a high q cut at 1179hz on the left, I have the high q cut as a part of the fir for the left mid only , so the left mid is a linear phase 699t LR2 crossover at 1400hz with a compneo and a mini
> 
> 
> Anyway, right now it's the ****. I'm loving it
> 
> Pre tune is some cuts small cuts at the peaks of FR between 250-1k and only cutting half of the peak , and a small amount of eq at crossover between mid and horn to make them sound right together but I made them sound only half right because I know Dirac will fix it the rest of the way, Dirac works better like that I've found as well.
> 
> No TA against left and right, small amount of TA against of same side speakers to help acoustical alignment is ok , but only half way, (again it will use the sum and make a better correction so half way is perfect)
> 
> Post tune , a 1.6db cut on the left side completely all driver go equally down (that's important) than a tiny bit of minimum phase eq again at that nasty horn loaded mid area at 1179hz (1 or 2db more) and that's it.
> 
> Pretty dam consistent, and you can tell it's right , ambiance doesn't collapse , stays solid up loud and doesn't have any wired break ups up high (keeping target below the responce above 1k)
> 
> Try that, and also try this, (makes a sick chair tune with horns)
> 
> Do chair , take 1st measurement at nose ,
> 
> Do the left and right mic spots where it says to put them , and the forward measurements in the center of you and passenger seat ,
> That helped A LOT! It really made the horns sound the same and evened out the tuning of the psychoacoustic image a lot, especially up in the 1.4-3khz band.
> 
> The uneven dispersion of the minis screws with Dirac algo , doing that greatly stabilizes its algo and gets it right down and dope ass real sounding.
> 
> It gives it a much bigger piece of what the horns are doing in the spectrum of the room.
> 
> Even tho your not sitting in the passenger seat your ears absolutely hear the sound over there. Make that a part of its averaging.
> 
> Also post Dirac it might be good to go to your dsp for midbass , put a high Q boost at +16db and run the frequency slider up and down the passband for midbass (with Dirac engaged) and listen for where you midbass cabinets are ringing too loud, do a 2-4db cut at that frequency with a Q around 3-6 depending on frequency of ringing, lower frequencies higher Q , and enjoy !!


Well it’s fine now, I reset the phone setting (my source) and center is back to center.
I was surprised to find these settings in it, mono option with balance, that was a quick way to test L/R midbass while driving because I felt the right one was stronger. But when played in mono and with balance the left one is as strong as the right one. Maybe it’s just the right mini that enhances it more.
Or the left midrange off axis.

But yes I totally agree that at least one mic position should be in the center!
I found that by chance too while messing around.
It’s really strange but yes getting at least one perfect symmetric response helps Dirac a lot. The later corrections get better, more even energy, it’s a bit subjective but it’s what I feel.
So now one point of my cube is always in the center, right above the console, exactly at the cross point of the minis (was almost there before anyway).

But about TA I have no need to post-correct L/R levels. Do you think it’s your layout, with windshield drivers?

Ok now I’ll check the resonance thing.
Yesterday I checked few things, sub box is clean enough, and well isolated with an old mattress so it’s no this.
Then listened a bit more, sub off, I was barefoot and then it just jumped at me, it’s the floor, I could clearly feel the hits.
Definitely a weak point, I thought I had fixed it with all deadening and foam but it’s still there. And it’s probably above 100Hz.

I remember one day when I was driving with the cabin stripped naked, a biker with empty pipes came beside at a light stop. And it was not so much the sound that was disturbing, but the hit of both pistons that I could feel through the floor! Like if someone literally kicked my floor every cycle!

So I’ll try to measure it again, see if something happens on the distortion plot.
Try some high Q cuts like you said if I can find the spot.
Other than that what could I do, pour some lead/concrete on the floor?
I’m ok with that


----------



## oabeieo

With your speakers low like that, yeah it probably doesn't need a Bal to right. Much more even power responce but more important a more uniform transfer function.


The biggest thing that helped s me is a linear phase high q cut at 1179hz 

They say don't use linear phase eq , however that's only if there passband on both sides , I have it at the corner of crossover so it's fine , no pre ring 


Concrete!!!! 

There used to be this stuff that was called rockite (half concrete half styrofoam)
Über lightweight. Wonder if it's still available 

Idk that sounds like an annoyance, got to do something about it


----------



## oabeieo

But yeah the forward measurements definitely need to be directly in front of the horns 
And not off to the driver side only , 

If you look at chair box it's all in front of the suspected speakers , 

I want to think the forward measurements are more for room eq and the majority of the actual left and right together is based on the forward measurements and the back measurements eq are separate left and right eq , 

At least from looking at the loop back and how it averages the response and how it averages how much total eq and separate left right eq to use. 

It's really hard to dissect, but it's a educated guess. 
It definitely does eq different that what REW auto eq does. 
I think it's the Dirac impulse calculation at work there , 
It's pretty interesting to loop Dirac back into REW and look at the left and right correction in REW. It resembles a invert FR but isn't quite all that, it does some other stuff and it's hard to see exactly what when you can't see each measurement. All you can see is the final correction. 

The 2x4HDs fir makes a huge difference. I have tried running Dirac without any fir and just using the minimum phase crossovers and eq and see what Dirac does to that and it's different, definitely not better or the same, adding the fir crossovers and fir phase eq makes a world of difference especially as far as fixing reflections and sub to midbass and midrange interaction.

I wish they had a 10ch HD that had minischarks on each output. Toggling between 3 dsps is a bit of a pain , but it's not horrible. I just have to save my configuration every time in unplug.


----------



## Elgrosso

Rockite, found it! Yeah still exists.
Hum... need to study, might no be a great idea to reinforce the floor too much, in case of accident. Maybe I should try lead first, adding big weight before rigidity.

How did you do your loopback on rew?
After all this months I still didn't take the time to even just measure the result with rew.
I don't care much on the graph itself, but it could be interesting for others maybe, to convince more of them if it helps.

Did you think about trying the ddrc88? how many channels do you run?
After all the discussions we had I'm still curious to see if the dirac soft could be used to manage xo.
It has manual ta, and using each channel targets as xo target, it should work.
adding one hd or the ddrc22 to manage sub/midbass for more fir maybe.


----------



## oabeieo

I used a 2 x 4 HD said everything to Unity gain Turned off call processing 
Rca to 3.5 directly into blaux on soundcard


----------



## oabeieo

The 88 would be cool. Just not enough taps, 
I was thinking maybe use the one I have now on subs and midbass and do my own correction in rephase on mid and horn , 

I can get in with rephase and custom tailor it to what I want it to do. 
I like that better in some ways. Harder and more time consuming but I like it more


----------



## oabeieo

I know I hate screen shots, I made a few tho for the hell of it













so many steps to get only a small part of some conversation..

uugh


----------



## Elgrosso

Which ones are before/after?
not super obvious  (except last)


----------



## oabeieo

And of course the one I wanted to post wasn't in there. 
There's one that shows what I want but FR is all zoomed out  

Jut for that I'll make more and re post. 
I was trying to display how a reflection can be seen as a obvious inconsistency between min ph and FR . And I successfully screwed that up by taking the wrong screenshots. Nice! If you zoom in on some of those you can still see it between 900-1khz 

Anyway, I have a nice big problem at 950hz that's a big ole reflection that I've tamed quite a bit. And a few smaller ones up in the 2.5k band. Those I have been using a mix of peq and lpeq with some success.


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Which ones are before/after?
> not super obvious  (except last)


None before after.

I guess all of them are after , I made the problem at 950hz way way way better but it still shows a smaller problem. 

Maybe I'll do some before afters 

I'll have to make a new configuration so I don't screw up what I've already spend hours doing.


----------



## oabeieo

Okay, so I made a configuration with no fir and I'll do a a/b tonight 
Got to take the kiddies to chuckeycheese .


----------



## Yourconfused

I have really enjoyed this build so far, and actually read every post. lol

I have the next gen, so I am not sure if yours is similar in this regard, but the muffler is only a couple inches away from the spare tire well and makes it really hot on that side. Have you noticed this also, and have you done anything about that? I have some header wrap leftover from the subie that I was thinking about putting on the muffler, as well as some thick glass fiber that one of the Clever Brooks techs gave me that they use on their boilers. I can't find my temp gun, but just by feel (which I am fairly accurate at up to about 160°f) thanks to years of welding and machining, but after a 30 minute drive I can feel the inside of the tire well and it feels like it's about 135° on the muffler side and about 20 deg cooler on the drivers side.

I have my amps in the tire well, which is why it is of interest to me.
Thanks

Keep up the good work here!


----------



## oabeieo

Okay,
Here is a before and after FIR (room correction)
Dirac does such a good job at cleaning **** up its remarkable 
That huge problem at 70-80hz is all but completely fixed. 
And all the way through the response it does a fantastic job at impulse correction. 

Maybe I should get some close horn measurements up so we can view the phase clearly up high past 3k ...... for the most part it's all good , I only see a small issue between 400-800hz from the mid horn loading, very odd energy transfer there, I think I have enough power left to make most of it fixed .....I'll try to not make the response completely rippled more than 1db through the passband . 
Let's try


----------



## oabeieo

Here is a rephase correction I added on top of dirac to fix some stuff in the midrange
As you can see Dirac did a huge part of the correction, the only thing is the "before" I did have a linear phase eq set at 1197hz to-9db otherwise you would have seen that issue as well.....
However in the after you can see where Dirac probably ran out of taps to move 400hz back 68deg and 630 up 33deg to make it better match the minimum phase inverse relationship. So I added the correction on top of a linear phase band pass crossovers and that linear phase eq cut at 1197. 

I also am short of taps running at 96k however I barley got it done with any stop band ripple well past -30db.


----------



## Elgrosso

Yes! Some 10/15db tammed!
Much smoother/flatter, and we can the mids still fullmof energy.
What causes the 330hz dip?
Btw what are they, both sides/one only, at the center of the car?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Yes! Some 10/15db tammed!
> Much smoother/flatter, and we can the mids still fullmof energy.
> What causes the 330hz dip?
> Btw what are they, both sides/one only, at the center of the car?


It's just the left side, however I did a few measurements before I made this for the right as well. I only moved phase in areas that are common to both sides 
And common to mic placement per side. 

Of course the right side would have a totally different energy transfer if the mic was over on the driver side , so I looked at how it looked with mic on pass side and driver side and looked for where it was different. 

The frequency response is the same from both sides so I only want to fix an issue that is common around the whole front of car. 
400-630 just where it becomes non modal , the Dip at 300 is modal and is because the width of the car. 

I've fixed that before and was left with the midrange gain up really loud and hardly any output because the null eats up more and more you try to put in it. 
It's nothing a phase adjustment can fix. The only think that can be done is when both speakers play the same thing, so if I were to move timing back on driver side at 300hz so reinforcement happens at one seat. Sucks for two seat so I ignore it and move on. I also have the 10s playing with a 12db filter so they grab just a tiny bit of 300 and reinforce a tiny bit during crossover so that 300 doesn't sound completely hollow. 

This is a perfect example of how bad off axis drivers perform especially when loaded into a big glass disc. If I could get even a few degrees on axis it would be so much better..... 
It sounds good , but would be even better. That's my next project. (I'm trying to find a good HE 4"-5" drivers do to just that. Maybe do an array of small drivers 
As small drivers make dash mounted speakers sound bigger and farther.


----------



## Yourconfused

When reading this thread I was thinking about how interesting it would be to throw in a line array of, say like 2" aura drivers, would perform if they were placed along the dash to windshield portion of the car. I somehow talked myslef out of it for some reason, but would still be kinda fun to try I think. (as in fun for me to have somebody else do it lol)


----------



## rton20s

Yourconfused said:


> When reading this thread I was thinking about how interesting it would be to throw in a line array of, say like 2" aura drivers, would perform if they were placed along the dash to windshield portion of the car. I somehow talked myslef out of it for some reason, but would still be kinda fun to try I think. (as in fun for me to have somebody else do it lol)


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/311354-bessel-array-vs-straight-array.html


----------



## Yourconfused

rton20s said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/311354-bessel-array-vs-straight-array.html


Yet another idea I had stolen, way before I even had the chance to have the idea! lol
Thanks for the link, I am going to read that whole thread now.


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> It's just the left side, however I did a few measurements before I made this for the right as well. I only moved phase in areas that are common to both sides
> And common to mic placement per side.
> 
> Of course the right side would have a totally different energy transfer if the mic was over on the driver side , so I looked at how it looked with mic on pass side and driver side and looked for where it was different.
> 
> The frequency response is the same from both sides so I only want to fix an issue that is common around the whole front of car.
> 400-630 just where it becomes non modal , the Dip at 300 is modal and is because the width of the car.
> 
> I've fixed that before and was left with the midrange gain up really loud and hardly any output because the null eats up more and more you try to put in it.
> It's nothing a phase adjustment can fix. The only think that can be done is when both speakers play the same thing, so if I were to move timing back on driver side at 300hz so reinforcement happens at one seat. Sucks for two seat so I ignore it and move on. I also have the 10s playing with a 12db filter so they grab just a tiny bit of 300 and reinforce a tiny bit during crossover so that 300 doesn't sound completely hollow.
> 
> This is a perfect example of how bad off axis drivers perform especially when loaded into a big glass disc. If I could get even a few degrees on axis it would be so much better.....
> It sounds good , but would be even better. That's my next project. (I'm trying to find a good HE 4"-5" drivers do to just that. Maybe do an array of small drivers
> As small drivers make dash mounted speakers sound bigger and farther.


What about one of these if they can fit?
B&C Speakers
Overview


----------



## oabeieo

Not bad ideas guys , and actually been considering both! 

Either some sort of 5" or a set of 3-4 2" driver. 
I need to get down to 160hz with authority, 
So maybe a 4" and a pair or 2" or something idk not 100%

But soon, I'm redoing and going to honestly try to finish my custom


----------



## oabeieo

been out of the game for a few minutes 

Preparing for nuclear war I built a bomb shelter in my basement


----------



## oabeieo

Well a fallout shelter to be precise. 

Double layer cinterblock filled with lead pellets , 
My foundation is about 12" and underground basement 

Turned the entire downstairs bathroom into a fallout safe zone

Got two weeks of food, water , gasoline stored up


It's comin gang! 

(Oh btw my 6th grade teacher told me 27years ago that in 2017 Donald trump would be elected and shortly after that the us would sustain nuclear attack and that it would be n Korea that starts it .)

After trump got elected I was concerned because what she said and to this day I'm like how in the hell did she know that. 

Well she was right , I don't know how , but it's comin ......please prepare)


----------



## Onyx1136

oabeieo said:


> Well a fallout shelter to be precise.
> 
> Double layer cinterblock filled with lead pellets ,
> My foundation is about 12" and underground basement
> 
> Turned the entire downstairs bathroom into a fallout safe zone
> 
> Got two weeks of food, water , gasoline stored up
> 
> 
> It's comin gang!
> 
> (Oh btw my 6th grade teacher told me 27years ago that in 2017 Donald trump would be elected and shortly after that the us would sustain nuclear attack and that it would be n Korea that starts it .)
> 
> After trump got elected I was concerned because what she said and to this day I'm like how in the hell did she know that.
> 
> Well she was right , I don't know how , but it's comin ......please prepare)


Actually she was wrong. Trump was elected in 2016. 2017 is not an election year. The devil is in the details.


----------



## Elgrosso

Hey caveman is back! 

What system did you install in there? 
Think about the future, you need to save some LP, could become the 1st audio guru of the next age


----------



## oabeieo

Onyx1136 said:


> Actually she was wrong. Trump was elected in 2016. 2017 is not an election year. The devil is in the details.



He started his presidency Jan 20th 17' 

The swearing of the hippocratic oath is when it actually started silly.

She was right about that and based on world news and stuff and all these different things going on I'm not going to at least not try to do something for my family


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Hey caveman is back!
> 
> What system did you install in there?
> Think about the future, you need to save some LP, could become the 1st audio guru of the next age


Actually, I have a set of dynaudio bookshelfs in there lol 

Hehehe 

And a wind up am/fm radio


----------



## oabeieo

Got them in again.
Two stacked on top of each other and the JLHD 1200/1 underneath also
3 4160s and a JL amp.

Sold one of the 600/4s and putting the other one in the wifeys new ride 


So far it's notably cleaner and has more usable volume. 
All barley fits under cover. The top focal amp fan is touching the cover, luckily the groves in it will let air suck through 

I need to jack up the floor 1/4" or so ,


----------



## oabeieo

Finally! 
I'm finishing my dash work.....

Good grief that took way too long. 

Got some glass drying now. 
Just ordered some acrylic and lights.

The rest is a surprise. 
Let's say I've been working out some angles and teaching myself how to use hornresp
It's going to be pretty nifty , 

I got the last focal amp from my focal rep. Super nice guy, he got to listen to the fit and seemed to like it quite a bit. 
Got me a bit motivated and now that it's not 1000 degrees in the garage in can finally finish what I wanted to do ....


----------



## oabeieo

Just made a really nice sounding filter for the 10" midbass

It looks rough on a graph but it sounds oh so so smooth and the phase between the 10s and sub is dead on balls. A cut at 125 and a boost at 160 in the fir was added so no peq needed , all done in fir (and no HPF) Also added a closed box linearization at 40hz , that feature works wonderfully well. Highly recommend using that rephase trick on an enclosure. A must have imo for anyone that wants really good sounding bass. 
Lows sound so spacious and can hear ambiance in the sub bass, it's frikkin rad dood


----------



## Izay123

oabeieo said:


> Just made a really nice sounding filter for the 10" midbass
> 
> 
> 
> It looks rough on a graph but it sounds oh so so smooth and the phase between the 10s and sub is dead on balls. A cut at 125 and a boost at 160 in the fir was added so no peq needed , all done in fir (and no HPF) Also added a closed box linearization at 40hz , that feature works wonderfully well. Highly recommend using that rephase trick on an enclosure. A must have imo for anyone that wants really good sounding bass.
> 
> Lows sound so spacious and can hear ambiance in the sub bass, it's frikkin rad dood




Is that FIR /Phase adjustment, etc available on the MINIDSP 2X4HD? Or only on the DDRC models? 

I understand that the Helixes can do ALLPASS filters, but the information input to the GUI doesn't seem as detailed as your screen...


----------



## oabeieo

Izay123 said:


> Is that FIR /Phase adjustment, etc available on the MINIDSP 2X4HD? Or only on the DDRC models?
> 
> I understand that the Helixes can do ALLPASS filters, but the information input to the GUI doesn't seem as detailed as your screen...


Yes sir, that is a 2x4HD and rephase on the pics 

Rephase is by far the best fir maker and once you get the hang of it and get to know what diffrent phase adjustments and filters sound like, it's a sinch.

remember when you first started to be able to identify sound pitch on a 1/3 oactave scale? Like when you could listen to a system or tone and just know from experience around about what frequency was playing. And how you were either exactly right or very close to most of the time...


Learning rephase has the same kind of learning curve. Once you play around with it enough you can listen to a system and instinctively know which frequencies are coming out too late or early. Except learning rephase is like a thousand times more exciting. The level of accuracy is stunning that can be done in a car. 

In a house it is cool, but gosh dam a car this thing is so useful. It's so hard to describe how amazing bass and midbass sound when the timing across all frequencies is made linear and how you can time align parts of a speaker to fully tweak you time alignment to combat interference 

Easily as addictive as crack


----------



## oabeieo

I HIT THE GOSH DAM GLORY HOLE!!!


I ****in finally did it! I have found the TRuE path to good car audio. 

I have got to do a how to write up. 

I'm 100% g#$ dam sure I got the jackpot and nothing comes close to how bad ass my **** is now! 

(I'm thinkin ? Dam should I tell anyone my secrets or should I go win all the prizes first than do a write up???? 


^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds über duschëë but boys....I got the gosh dam glory hole. Nothing describes how real and how absolutely Killer my stage is (height depth) 

Hint........not a trace of audiable combfilters. ****IN DOPE!


----------



## oabeieo

^^^^^^^

Sorry about that, 
Just a bit excited. I've finally got a sick process down utilizing measurements and data to build digital filters to completely eliminate combfilters. This truly is the baddest ass **** gang. I honestly can not begin to describe how absolutely bad ass a 1 seat tune fully and critically optimized in phase and magnitude. Shifting the environment around has been such a struggle for me to fully learn. Since I got my first set of minischarks to full blown room correction to learning how to compliment different frequencies to multiple drivers. 

My biggest struggles were reading mixed phase data , where two speakers are interacting and ALL of the data from that. And finally , now.....I can build a set of impulses that completely erase all problems with the environment.

The two seat version is good, I would say very respectful and I can also make a killer two seat car and build some impulses that do things. But only to a point. Can get to image excellent but has a faint bit of smearing, unless I wanted to use a good tweeter in the center it would be almost perfect. 

But the one seat tune is totally speechless. The absolute precision the stage is is amazing. 
The depth goes about 4" past the windshield and the front of stage is at the mouth of horn (about 4" from bottom of windshield forward. For a stage depth what seems about 58" deep at center of car. With the stage boundaries at 50" front stage and 58" far stage.


----------



## chithead




----------



## captainobvious

Glad to see you're finally getting it where you want to.


----------



## oabeieo

Well, I woke up and right away went to listen to make sure my ears weren't tricking me out of disbelief. It's still perfect. 


Yes of course I'll tell how. I've been posting little tidbits of some of the filters I have been making , last night I finally took the time to use my data to make the ultimate fir.

So first off, this is something that only rephase can accomplish. For it is the only platform that has the flexibility to make self defined impulses. 

I don't know if APL can do this, if you can export rephase into an APL than it would be possible but would have to completely disregard APL software. I do think APl can get there with TDA. But the big problem is a single mic measurement. Getting all of this to work requires both left and right channels to interact with each other and to build a correction that solves the Left and Right interaction and the interaction between crossover areas on same side drivers ....getting it all to work together 

Dirac fixes combfilters caused by a reflection interaction between one channel and one boundary, (or one speaker and one boundary for multichannel Dirac) nothing is being done with the interaction between left and right except the 1st notch at 70-80hz. Because Dirac knows that's modal and does in fact change phase between left and right to reinforce 80hz dip. 


The next big issue is you can't just go make any phase correction for the combfilter between channels. Just doing that causes a magnitude irregularity between the comb peaks. So a 1st step has to be made in the proper order , than a 2nd step. Than a 3rd step , than a 4th step to get the magnitude and phase to be correct when both channels are applied. 

If someone made a dsp that uses fir and had two microphones that were the distance apart as our head , maybe an auto tune could be made. Maybe. The steps seem to be very repeatable. 

It blows me away the answer was before me for so long and I already knew the basics to it, just how it was applied I just didn't think about till I started some technical reading about Haas. 

There's 4 big comb dips. The 1st is entirely modal and uses a different approach, so the following 3 comb dips are always going to be spaced a certain way. Always . (Knowing that is the key to unlocking the mystery) the first comb will be of a wide Q the 2nd a little narrower and the 3rd even narrower AT A RATE OF 1:1/2-1:5/4 the depth of the comb may be different based on dispersion characteristics of the drivers. But one fact remains ........the most essential part in fact, it is *the math*. It is a absolute fact that can not be disputed that the combfilters will appear at frequencies that are 1/4 wavelength. Period! End of argument, that's a fact that will not ever change. And that was the missing element for building a perfect correction. At 1/4 wavelength the opposite wave will crash into it and make another 1/4wave witch WILL combine into a 1/2 wave cancellation. But it's more than "waves" it's *radians* using pi*2/f you can determine the distance needed to find what that 1/4wave length is to make a precise correction. 

The unfolding 

So you make a correction, great, apply it and now the peaks and dips may be lessened but the relationship between L and R will be different. Meaning , you'll have reinforcements sure but the psychoacoustic image will sound like it has a completely different frequency response. Something has to be done first before you apply the combfilters correction. You have to get the frequency response flat on each side first using L/R EQ with no changes made to phase or timing. Because timing is a function of delay and if you add time alignment it will cause a linear phase shift between other drivers in the car. Once the peaks knocked down with PEQ than apply the correction filters for L&R channels respectively. Than un-do some of the eq at comb peaks post correction based on an equal amount in frequency that was shifted by PEQ filters min phase filters. It should match its inverse perfectly to maintain a flat magnitude. Meaning , if the peq requires a -9db cut at a peak, you have to run the math at its center frequency as to wavelength vs radians as an effect of minimum phase shift caused by peq. So you than take out that amount of PEQ after the correction moving the peaks back up. But keep in mind at this point there now dips not peaks so it has to be restored , again it will all line up if you run the math first. Note it works better to use constant shape PEQ instead of constant Q filters on the peaks. As constant shape will most resemble the shape of the comb and the way constant shape PEQ works as a min phase application....... constant Q will work as well just a tiny bit of imprecision at the bottom of the dip. 


More later I got to go to work, 

I'll have to spend some time doing a complete write up.


----------



## oabeieo

So.......

Ugh I really do need to do a full blown write up and think it through intelligently and post step by step screen shots. 

Maybe I'll do one in the how to forum or member reviews .....
It would be on measurements and rephase primarily, and fir making, and utilizing measurements......so many things to discuss.......


Once I figured out how to use excess group delay graphs in unison with minimum phase graphs the wheels starting really turnin for me. It's so many things tho, a lot of those measurements I also wasn't using right because I was using acoustical timing reference. It has to use loop back timing reference to get a good measurement. That took months seems like to figure out. Also turning off ppo96 or whatever it's called in rew to get good phase data up high in frequency. Also even tho a rectangular window has more errors on it as far as noise in the measurements it sure seems to give a better more accurate portrait of the combined data. The tukey (hann) window is great for subwoofers but when looking at impulse I prefer the noisier measurement that has at least better placement over the entire spectrum. Bigger file also, but who cares . 

Looking at phase data in a linear plot and logarithmic both have there uses. For just checking how flat absolute phase is linear view of course , but you need the time scale to see relationships are with frequency. Just a few things I've picked up alon the way that helped me get good usable measurements. Without that it's tail chasing or simply spinning wheels at a stop.


----------



## oabeieo

After thinking about doing a write up, 
It would take weeks to do one because there's so much explanation 
If anyone really requested that uses HDs I would be happy to help.


Here is a pic of the left channel convoluted and the right channel inverse 
Plot against each other, 

It's an fir that has linear crossovers , some linear phase eq , and some PPEQ (parametric phase eq) for combfilters.

It does make all the serious combfilters completely disappear, however it must be understood that, it dosent regain 100% reinforcement. It gets you about 50% of the cancellation back, the Q being set wider actually pulls on the adjacent peaks and dials them the opposite way so they start to cancel a tiny bit, getting a more even energy transfer is all you need to get it. With 99db mids I have plenty of efficiency to burn.....

In this filter I widened the Q , in the "glory hole" filter is exactly matched the 1:1-1:1/2-1:5/4s Q structure. That sounded better , but with this setup it sounds almost exactly the same as far as reinforcement goes, except I get to keep my linear crossovers, it's a tap issue , I could have got it all done with a hann window but I want resolution more than a tiny tiny bit of inaudible ringing. So I kept the rectangular window on all fir 
Tryed this and it's still the gosh dam glory hole all the way....so nice to have such warm and sharp midrange up high. I love it the most when the midrange is smooth and has even energy.


----------



## Elgrosso

Was about to ask for some news but I have some reading to do here 
You're good amigo?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Was about to ask for some news but I have some reading to do here
> You're good amigo?




Yeszir ! 

Wondering where you went.....

I am going to be trying APL software.
I started to install it on Sunday and the wife ended up going to the ER 
Girl has to have her gallbladder taken out. So again my play time has been cut to nothing. 
But luckily it won't be bad she goes and gets it taken out on the 1st 

After that it's on!
I have to use jriver and my laptop as a source for the trial, 

I've finally got a excellent grip at reading measurements in REW , 
and taking measurements 

Sat down one night and solved some issues with REW setup. For one acoustic timing reference dosent work as good as a loop back. 

Manual IR offset works much better and the phase data up high in frequency stops wrapping hundreds of times. 

Once I was able to get consistent measurements with no wraps in phase data with a mic location at seat I was able to really see why to do in my fir 

It's crazy what one sample of delay will do. Any time delay causes wrapping


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Yeszir !
> 
> Wondering where you went.....
> 
> I am going to be trying APL software.
> I started to install it on Sunday and the wife ended up going to the ER
> Girl has to have her gallbladder taken out. So again my play time has been cut to nothing.
> But luckily it won't be bad she goes and gets it taken out on the 1st
> 
> After that it's on!
> I have to use jriver and my laptop as a source for the trial,
> 
> I've finally got a excellent grip at reading measurements in REW ,
> and taking measurements
> 
> Sat down one night and solved some issues with REW setup. For one acoustic timing reference dosent work as good as a loop back.
> 
> Manual IR offset works much better and the phase data up high in frequency stops wrapping hundreds of times.
> 
> Once I was able to get consistent measurements with no wraps in phase data with a mic location at seat I was able to really see why to do in my fir
> 
> It's crazy what one sample of delay will do. Any time delay causes wrapping


Oh ****! You mean one of your kids or your wife?
Sorry man...

Well you'll have time to read (or re-read) all APL material/install/debug posts here etc
You should try at home too or maybe even first, it worked very well there.
And my small monitors were already pretty good.
I could have sent you mine but it's sold now.
But I'm eager to hear your view on it!

I still have to read all your stuff from few weeks ago, will do that over a cool week end 'cause it was a bit too much for me.


----------



## captainobvious

If you have any trouble getting the APL stuff off the ground and running, shoot me a message.

Looking forward to learning more about your usage of rephase. It would be great to get a short video or something showing your process for making a correction or two with your method.


Cheers,

Steve


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> If you have any trouble getting the APL stuff off the ground and running, shoot me a message.
> 
> Looking forward to learning more about your usage of rephase. It would be great to get a short video or something showing your process for making a correction or two with your method.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve



Hey Steve

Yeah buddy I can't wait to try it , I'm having tons of issues getting it set up.

Matlab keeps crashing , I can't get the install done on TDA and workshop haven't even tryed yet. 


I'm starting to wonder if I lost my "computerhackingskills" 


I'm going to try and do it on another laptop this weekend , I have 3 laptops so , hopefully a clean install might be all I need.

I'm super curious how it handles and it's so unusual measurement methods.
I'm sure there's a good reason for it, once I can hear it I'll know more what it's doing and should pick it up fast.

Yes. I need to do a video , that would be so so much easier than a long post.
Again my issue with that is I can't upload more than 10min to YouTube, I need to learn how to upload a two hour video. Sad **** is it takes all night to upload a 10min video and it usually crashes and takes me a few days to get one to go live.


Maybe I need to create a channel or something I don't know , but uploading from a phone web connection isn't working.

I need get off my butt and do the research on how to do that.


And it's perfect time to , I just got a complete set of new measurements (about 60 REW sweeps) of all kinds of different senerios. 
In fact , I'll read up on it tonight when I'm laying in bed


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Oh ****! You mean one of your kids or your wife?
> Sorry man...
> 
> Well you'll have time to read (or re-read) all APL material/install/debug posts here etc
> You should try at home too or maybe even first, it worked very well there.
> And my small monitors were already pretty good.
> I could have sent you mine but it's sold now.
> But I'm eager to hear your view on it!
> 
> I still have to read all your stuff from few weeks ago, will do that over a cool week end 'cause it was a bit too much for me.



Yeah the wife goes in Wednesday. I'm all worried. I hope it all goes smoothly 


But dood I hit the dam glory frikkin hole , smoothed out the combfilters so so much with fir 

I've re invented the wheel yet again. Lol 
Once I got the hang on Windows , gating , delay, and loopbacks , 
The excess GD graph was finally accurate and I could get a good minimum phase correction that sounds good and correct.


----------



## Holmz

oabeieo said:


> Yeah the wife goes in Wednesday. I'm all worried. I hope it all goes smoothly
> 
> But dood I hit the dam glory frikkin hole , smoothed out the combfilters so so much with fir
> ...


Good luck with the Mrs - the doctors are pretty good, so if they are confident then it is something that they know.

With respect to you glory hole tune... The FIR is technically superior. Assuming a processor can keep up and the cost is not an issue...
I am not surprised, but I am happy to see your words.


----------



## oabeieo

Holmz said:


> Good luck with the Mrs - the doctors are pretty good, so if they are confident then it is something that they know.
> 
> With respect to you glory hole tune... The FIR is technically superior. Assuming a processor can keep up and the cost is not an issue...
> I am not surprised, but I am happy to see your words.




There's definitely a learning curve to it , as as usual I thought I mastered it the first day....(lol right! ) two years later just getting the swing of it now.

As far as cost , no more than a helix pro w director for my rig s 


Granted it's a pita switching usbs all the time and staying on top of all the files and syncing, but it's well worth the trouble. 



Thx on that , yeah good docs for sure , he said he does 100 of them a year. 
But the part that freaks me out is the 2% fatality stat. 
That's a hard pill to swallow


----------



## oabeieo

Got the cowl/raintray firewall cutting done a bit more , 
Used a co-workers air dremel with a nice metal nibbler on a hose, can get in nice and tight. 

All the way up against the wiper motor now. Got the minis firing up. Get some of that off axis love from these Stevens Audio HLCDs. Also, got it partellel with the glass so I get transfer instead of diffraction or refraction. 

Oh so so so much better now. Was getting too much energy off the throats being able to :see down the horn with my ears" (a famous P..B quote for yalls) good ole P Bateman would love this setup. The only other cat I know that prefers up top CDs. 

The Stevens's Audio CompNeo is bad ass driver, dam it sounds good down in the midrange and gobs of sparkle. Sick driver . 

Threw some padding in , now I can officially start fab on the horn mounts custom. 

I need a 3 or 4" speaker, 
I wonder if AE has a option?????? 


I also got pics of some of the new measurements. 
I post a few phone pics will do srennshots later ...


----------



## oabeieo

Just a few Measurement pics. 

Can see the excess GD is not horrible. Phase is smooth, Impulse is clean. 

unprocessed the Excess GD has some taller spikes, Adding an fir with a medium wide Q phaseEQ just to even out the differences. High Q phaseEQ doesn't sound good. Very metallic and bright. It just needs to me massaged and caressed some to be pulled into shape. 

Its about taking tons and tons of them. And knowing how to overlay them and window/gate the small delay out of the measurement. But also look at it it leaving some of the delay in the measurement. Give you a better picture whats unfolding.


----------



## oabeieo

The excess GD of the horn responce shows a -0.89ms peak at 3Khz. Looking at the GD and the Minimum Phase graph 3Khz has a cycle duration of 0.3333333333333333ms So Basicly Advancing Phase by 3 cycles or Positive Or 1080 degrees to make 0.99999999999ms And I only need 0.89 So the math is roughly 980degrees. 

I can also Export it into rePhase and draw a inversion simply and much faster. 

But as an example. In my averaged responses that dip is not there. 


So I have to look at all kinds of things to do more than what Dirac wants to do for me..

That's why I want to try TDA.....It looks like a much easier way to get it viewed.


----------



## oabeieo

Disregard, 

That was the mid measurement....oops 

That's probably a breakup mode causing that at 3k 

Well into stopband .

Ugh , REW is time consuming! Forgot to set limits right. 

Too many things to stay on top of need easier platform


----------



## oabeieo

I got some summed measurements somewhere I'll post them tonight , and show the whole thing w sub , (it's nice)


----------



## Elgrosso

Ok maybe I should not have this xxxrd whisky, but what did you change on the dash for the horns?
I can't see any difference, is it aiming? Or closer to the windshield?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ok maybe I should not have this xxxrd whisky, but what did you change on the dash for the horns?
> I can't see any difference, is it aiming? Or closer to the windshield?



Pics are deceiving....


I got them pushed down into dash another inch 

And have them 1/2 on 1/2 off axis . It’s perfect, 

Totally on axis the 4K was unbearable and had to be cut 3dbb too much
And the dispersion wasn’t right. Now there far enough off axis the horn does what was intended by its maker. (Even coverage and even frequency response that matches its dispersion) 

That 1” made it so I can stick the motor into the holes in a way that keeps the horn from having to be towed in. Before there was metal in the way. Under the horn is a metal shelf where the wiper motors are , I cut the firewall/shelf a bit more so the end of the horn can be tucked into it. I could push them all the way into the hole but when I turn on the wipers they would hit the horns so that’s as far as it goes. But it’s okay it works great like this . 

On Dash ES horns can work. It just needs to be setup slightly off axis. I knew this all along , PLD is important also, but I’ve had that in the bag this whole time 
Just needed to be able to get them off axis some and NOT towed in


----------



## Elgrosso

Way cool!
Haha the wiper story, so it's raining so often there? 
So now their crossfire is more about head levels, like right between both heads?

Very cool, I'm still hooked on trying on dash one day.
Was thinking about making a mold of each corners and create a horn right in these constrains, leveraging dash shape, glass etc. Long term idea, I'm sure my car is a good base for that so if I keep it when going back home I might be ok to cut metal and dash etc :smash:

What's the little thing in the middle, a breaker?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Way cool!
> Haha the wiper story, so it's raining so often there?
> So now their crossfire is more about head levels, like right between both heads?
> 
> Very cool, I'm still hooked on trying on dash one day.
> Was thinking about making a mold of each corners and create a horn right in these constrains, leveraging dash shape, glass etc. Long term idea, I'm sure my car is a good base for that so if I keep it when going back home I might be ok to cut metal and dash etc :smash:
> 
> What's the little thing in the middle, a breaker?


That’s the 12u tube preamp


----------



## Elgrosso

Ha nice, why is it there? For look or easy tube swap?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Ha nice, why is it there? For look or easy tube swap?




It’s all hooked up and usable.

I just do a rca swap on whatever set of speakers I want to hear it on from time to time .


----------



## Elgrosso

Oh yeah, you plug only the horns or the mids sometime? It's not the full input?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Oh yeah, you plug only the horns or the mids sometime? It's not the full input?


Yeah, the horns sometimes 
When I feel megalithic


----------



## oabeieo

So , still haven’t had time to get the APL “trail” setup , 
I haven’t lost complete interest.... I just learned something fun to do with convolution. So I’ve been fiddling with that....



So, I do need to make a thread on manual fir and measurements and acoustics. 
I have been a bit reluctant to share such a ground breaking routine because it’s sorta fun knowing I’ve achieved some truly impossible things with DSP. I just had to have a few weeks basking in my accompaniment to meself knowing I am the only mo fo I know that has a car that can do this with dash mounted drivers......

But truly the fun has subsided and I need to get this out to y’all. That’s good community. 
Once you get it to this , it feels like you’ve built a shuttle and went to the moon and back successfully. There was so much to learn and fully understand along the way and I read hours and hours (and hours) reading the same old **** written by different ppl trying to understand in a way I can make sence of what I was trying to solve and going down rabbit holes to hit dead ends. I read some excellent stuff too but had to learn it for myself and learn how to listen for it every time I made a change. So I felt I deserved a few weeks of self pride and accomplishment to make all that study and trial and error time mean something more than a single post on DIYMA to be lost down in the pages and never looked at again. 

So many rabbit holes and only one godam glory hole and I hit that M-F! The glory hole is filled with satisfaction and perfection, but it’s just a car stereo at the end of the day and I can’t bring the glory hole system with me when I die so it’s just dust at the end of the day. 


So, I’ll create I thread , hope it goes somewhere (maybe get a sticky for a few moths would be cool) or at least gets read and comprehended. I always looked for a page that had an explanation of things the way I explain things to make sence of things the way they actually behave in car and not so much on paper. A what to listen for when this happens kinda thing so I hope I can help ppl with my unique way of analogizing things. 

I’ll get if it sooon ..........



But for now, 

I’ve been doing something very fun and addictive as [email protected]$k in fir.

I’ve learned how to download real impulse Responses of famous venues and convert them to my type of FFT and mix them with my impulse FR data and crossover data to make some really awesome rear fill , and front fill drivers. 

I’ve downloaded IRs of a whole bunch of places where each IR is a mic location in the venue so you can send each mic location to targeted speaker positions in car to create the acoustic space of that venue.....this ain’t no cheesy reverb machine, these are real IRs of real places . Mixed right with my own correction I can make the car sound like I’m actually in that space. It’s fun!


----------



## Holmz

How is the mrs doing?


----------



## oabeieo

Holmz said:


> How is the mrs doing?



That’s awesome ! 

She’s doing good. Getting better everyday. I was a bit worried . 
She can’t eat fat now tho.....no fun stuff


----------



## Holmz

The drinks in that Art Deco bar in the Oxford contain no fat...


----------



## oliverlim

Have you manage to play with APL yet? I have one and am hoping to try some of your tricks in it. I do have a minidsp 2x4 hd for my desktop system.





oabeieo said:


> So , still haven’t had time to get the APL “trail” setup ,
> I haven’t lost complete interest.... I just learned something fun to do with convolution. So I’ve been fiddling with that....
> 
> 
> 
> So, I do need to make a thread on manual fir and measurements and acoustics.
> I have been a bit reluctant to share such a ground breaking routine because it’s sorta fun knowing I’ve achieved some truly impossible things with DSP. I just had to have a few weeks basking in my accompaniment to meself knowing I am the only mo fo I know that has a car that can do this with dash mounted drivers......
> 
> But truly the fun has subsided and I need to get this out to y’all. That’s good community.
> Once you get it to this , it feels like you’ve built a shuttle and went to the moon and back successfully. There was so much to learn and fully understand along the way and I read hours and hours (and hours) reading the same old **** written by different ppl trying to understand in a way I can make sence of what I was trying to solve and going down rabbit holes to hit dead ends. I read some excellent stuff too but had to learn it for myself and learn how to listen for it every time I made a change. So I felt I deserved a few weeks of self pride and accomplishment to make all that study and trial and error time mean something more than a single post on DIYMA to be lost down in the pages and never looked at again.
> 
> So many rabbit holes and only one godam glory hole and I hit that M-F! The glory hole is filled with satisfaction and perfection, but it’s just a car stereo at the end of the day and I can’t bring the glory hole system with me when I die so it’s just dust at the end of the day.
> 
> 
> So, I’ll create I thread , hope it goes somewhere (maybe get a sticky for a few moths would be cool) or at least gets read and comprehended. I always looked for a page that had an explanation of things the way I explain things to make sence of things the way they actually behave in car and not so much on paper. A what to listen for when this happens kinda thing so I hope I can help ppl with my unique way of analogizing things.
> 
> I’ll get if it sooon ..........
> 
> 
> 
> But for now,
> 
> I’ve been doing something very fun and addictive as [email protected]$k in fir.
> 
> I’ve learned how to download real impulse Responses of famous venues and convert them to my type of FFT and mix them with my impulse FR data and crossover data to make some really awesome rear fill , and front fill drivers.
> 
> I’ve downloaded IRs of a whole bunch of places where each IR is a mic location in the venue so you can send each mic location to targeted speaker positions in car to create the acoustic space of that venue.....this ain’t no cheesy reverb machine, these are real IRs of real places . Mixed right with my own correction I can make the car sound like I’m actually in that space. It’s fun!


----------



## oabeieo

So....to the top . It’s back . 
The fit got a entire new dash installed at the dealership 
I welded back in the plates to firewall cut. Painted, all back to factory 


Now it’s getting an old skool horn build 

8s in floor 
Horns (down low) 
Sub 

3x old Rockford DSM PUNCH 200 trans Anna 
1x punch 500x2 DSM TRANSANNA 

CLAIRION Nx 807 
3x minidsp 2x4hd 
1x ddrc xx


Need find low Q shallow 8” to go tiny sealed in floor behind brake pedal and pass floor


----------



## Elgrosso

Ha finally you went with the old rockford, you found some good ones?
Maybe some B&C 8 like mbx or ndl etc? or Lavoce?


----------



## oabeieo

Yes! I won the 800x2 today , I had a very high max bid 
Picked it up for 175 , and I won auctions on three punch 200ix-tas paid like 150 ea for 

Plan is to use a 200 on horns and the 800 on midbass 

Than use a 200 on rears and a 200 on some staging tweeter up in dash only if I need it 
Than the 1000bd on subs , I might use the other 200 on subs if I don’t need tweets 


Yeah these amps were the absolute best amps made in 99’ 
The only class D amp on market was a trash infinity amp and it sounded like complete dog ****. 

In late 90s brands were still establishing there names so “basic” gear from big names was dam good ****, (Rockford , Ppi, linear power, xtant, ) even ****ty brands like kicker and Phoenix gold had good stuff. 

Now these companies are either sold to China or have become so big there “good ****” is soooo expensive like T series amps , or class D sell outs. 

The market wants class D because it’s small and efficient???? Nope! Because the moron consumers think the “D” means digital and that’s better somehow. 

We all know class aB is way better in SQ and is just as efficient at louder levels (I don’t buy big amps to be more efficient at half volume) sure the D is smaller footprint, but a good class D has to be ****in packed with a lot of really crazy technology just to even play on the same field as a simple AB let alone a good AB. 

Rockford was so ahead of the game in the 90s made so much money , now they have ruined there name to cheap prime series garbage, people say they went down when they haven’t , the T series stuff is bad ass to this day.

Yeah I’m happy, I’ve going to open them up , clean the boards, checkto make sure all the finals are Motorola irf-540 (original output devices) 
I got to get my scope out and re-bias the rails the pots I’m sure they’ve gained resistance, 
Swap the pots maybe and gain pots. Fix x card socket pads from corrosion, check input rails and regulators , bridge recs , caps throughout, 
Etc 
Try to find two sets of end caps , if I can I’ll re powder coat them all 

Yeah. I’m excited


----------



## oabeieo

Doing the nx807 transplant today. 
Getting all the HDs wired and pre wiring for the ddrc 

Need to find a good optical cable - guess I’m going to best try .......(.oops Best Buy)


----------



## rton20s

oabeieo said:


> Need find low Q shallow 8” to go tiny sealed in floor behind brake pedal and pass floor


Sounds like the Audio Development W800 Neo might work? Shallow, efficient and the Qts is 0.47. Qts might be a little high, depending on the enclosure and how low you want to play them. 0.8cf gets you a Qtc of 0.707 and Fsc of 84Hz.


----------



## oabeieo

rton20s said:


> Sounds like the Audio Development W800 Neo might work? Shallow, efficient and the Qts is 0.47. Qts might be a little high, depending on the enclosure and how low you want to play them. 0.8cf gets you a Qtc of 0.707 and Fsc of 84Hz.


Nice driver but yes too high 
I’m looking for high compliance (loose suspension) and low q (maybe .25-.or .3 ish) 
The Dynaudio is like perfect for this but not efficient enough. 
So if I can get something with a q of .35 and at least 90db 1/w/m or 93 2.83 
OTOH my gut says if I stick a dyn in .15 I should get a efficiency bump at least up to 200. But that bump will come with all kinds of colorations and ringings I’m certain . 

I wanna stick this ****er in .15 but 6mm should be plenty 4mm will suffice plan on going fairly steep at 65hz (steep as in 12db) but all that said with eq on top of my “steep” crossover. 


So not sure what to do 

Want to throw an 8 in the floor in a dinky tiny fiberglass enclosure under the car 
Maybe I’ll have to figure out some way of venting the enclosure to the outside without water getting in so I can use a low compliant high ish q with the right sized hole and tune the hole and measure


----------



## oabeieo

Maybe I should do a dyn and a dedicated midrange 

Just trying keep it simple and stay a 3 way 
Subs horns mids that’s it , 

Every horn 2 way plus sub I’ve ever done for myself I’ve always sealed up the midbass in a smaller box, 

The old idq8 was very very good in .2 or .3 
Wonder what speaker is just like the old Idq 
That woofer just killed it in small sealed and sounded good to 500, 

Maybe I’ll take a 2nd look at AE


----------



## captainobvious

Check these out bro.


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...oustics-sb23cacs45-4-8-ceramic-woofer-4-ohms/


They also make it in an aluminum cone version with slightly different specs.


Low inductance (0.27mH), 90db sens, CMS of 1.45 mm/N so softer compliance, very light cone with a moving mass of 32g, low FS at 23hz, qts .33, models well in a small sealed, excellent smooth response and could easily be used higher than 500hz.




That said, I would still prefer a driver vented to outside as larger woofers in small sealed enclosures don't typically sound good in the vehicle where you get additional loading. I always end up with tubby 100hz-300hz and eq cutting doesn't make it sound good enough. If you're able to vent outside, I'd go that route.


----------



## rton20s

In that case, I would also take a look at the B&C 8" offerings. The 8NDL51, 8BG51 and 8MBX51 all look like viable solutions for you. So, long as they physically fit, of course.


----------



## oabeieo

rton20s said:


> In that case, I would also take a look at the B&C 8" offerings. The 8NDL51, 8BG51 and 8MBX51 all look like viable solutions for you. So, long as they physically fit, of course.


I agree I was looking at the mbx 
It looks good , they have another one also 
8mndl51 I think?? Anyway it looked very good


The reason I was not wanting the mbx is the basket and it’s hexagram shape


----------



## rton20s

oabeieo said:


> I agree I was looking at the mbx
> It looks good , they have another one also
> 8mndl51 I think?? Anyway it looked very good
> 
> 
> The reason I was not wanting the mbx is the basket and it’s hexagram shape


I ran some quick sims of all five 8 Ohm Neo 8" B&Cs available from PE in the 0.15CF enclosure you described. I didn't see any value/reason to consider the 8NDL64 or 8MDN51. Yes, they model with a lower Qtc, but will likely lack the low end extension provided by the other three models I listed. Of those I listed, I think the MBX might be the best choice.


----------



## oabeieo

rton20s said:


> I ran some quick sims of all five 8 Ohm Neo 8" B&Cs available from PE in the 0.15CF enclosure you described. I didn't see any value/reason to consider the 8NDL64 or 8MDN51. Yes, they model with a lower Qtc, but will likely lack the low end extension provided by the other three models I listed. Of those I listed, I think the MBX might be the best choice.



Thanks. Yeah that’s about what my gut told me also 
In fact I asked groso if he has the mbx for sale in his stash . 

I think that’s what it will end up being. 
I’ll have to figure out a way to hide the pentagon shape and hope that giant sized edge is t to big


----------



## Elgrosso

Nope man I sold them here some time ago.
Yeah the octogonal shape was a pain to integrate, maybe this one: 
8NMB420


----------



## rton20s

Elgrosso said:


> Nope man I sold them here some time ago.
> Yeah the octogonal shape was a pain to integrate, maybe this one:
> 8NMB420


Good call. Round basket, it models well in the desired enclosure and is slightly more efficient than the 8MBX51. Qtc and Fsc is a little higher, but still quite good for a midbass.


----------



## danno14

Hmmmm..... I think I still have the B&C’s I got from you a while back. Along with some 8ndl51’s from Kirk as I recall. Drop me a line if you need them.


----------



## oabeieo

danno14 said:


> Hmmmm..... I think I still have the B&C’s I got from you a while back. Along with some 8ndl51’s from Kirk as I recall. Drop me a line if you need them.


I would be thrilled to get the 10s back. 
I loved those drivers 

I’ll pm you !


----------



## oabeieo

So, if I can get those 10s back, I’ll just use the back seat box I already made for them 

Those worked good for what I want to do, 

Besides , after all this I totally changed gears and did something totally unexpected 
I just caught another (cherry) set of 2118-h and I’ve decided to use those. I know total opposite, but it’s low q , 7mm xmax , will work just fine in .15 down to 125hz and with the 10s I won’t need to play low now.

I got all excited about them b&cs 
If if Danno doesn’t want move on it I also just bough another set of audax 10s


----------



## oabeieo

Installed a pxe0850s Into my brother in laws car. 
BT kept dumping me off. 
If I can get that working his setup is pretty sweet


----------



## oabeieo

Got a 2nd go round on a DDRC (thank you elgrosso) 
Got it fired up and ran some measurements today. Worked like a champ no issues . 

It’s so weird having tight fitting usb sockets on my tuning gear (that won’t last long)


----------



## oabeieo

Got three punch 200ix transanna amps installed and the punch 500.2 

Got to say, these amps are remarkably better sounding than the HD amps or focal amps. 
I remember back in the 90s I ran 4 punch 200s and my setup was super legit , and back then anyone I knew in sq called RF “fuzzgqate” and mocked them , still a better sounding amp hands down than anything I’ve installed , the brax amps sound nice I’ll say that and the old xtant amps sounded good. But this class D **** is just dogshit. 
I think damping plays a huge role , the RF amps are noticeably snappy and clean in the Bass and midrange. Much past 800hz I honestly can’t tell the difference between amps too much really. 
This 100x2 amp seems to make about the same amount of power as a HD600/4 bridged into two channels at 300x2. 
The D amps up loud have a characteristic that almost seems like power surging with audio modulated on the power surge, which it in many ways is. Even with a LPF on the output of a D it almost seems at higher power that filter gets driven into hystiris and bleeding vhf almost in a DC fashion if I could try to describe it. 

So far super happy I trusted my gut and memory of these amps. Definitely way better than what’s out these days.


----------



## oabeieo

So I’ve started making an enclosure for subs 

Doing a isobaric compound loaded 6th order 
Using two jl 12w3v34 
Only want as much output as one sub, but want the power handling and want to dig deep into the teens, I also like the 12db gain at 80hz to help my brute force approach to getting that 80hz area to be just loud enough 

I’ll use a pair of sharcs to get the GD numbers down. Tuning at 20/80 and have cabin gain at50 should play smooth in car. We’ll see what it does with 1kw on them


----------



## oabeieo

Plus.....I wanna experiment with fir and bandpass enclosure 
Also, I’m using these old amps and it’s making me reminisce about the good ole’ days with punch pro series subs in 6th orders doing 145+dB on like a 75x2 amp 

I realize the 12w3 is the complete bad choice for this, it models well tho ...dead flat response to 20hz , GD is a **** show and has a 75deg phase twist between 55.69hz 
Plus to make matters worse I’m tuning the low side at 20 and I’m using a tiny 3” aeroport 
It should be a 4 or 6” port with 1k on them....but port velocity is under Mach 1.2 until it gets below 26hz and at 18hz it’s at mach4 I don’t plan on music going down too deep but I needed the port to fit and not exceed 12”. Iirc the end correction allows like 25% more air to move through it .....so it should perform like a 4” round I hope. We’ll see I guess .....

Maybe I should just get the 4” tube but I think the 3” should work barely for a 12 it’s just a little small .


----------



## oabeieo

Oh my gosh....

Been widdleing wood today 

This box is just everything you just shouldn’t do 
But **** it’s fun to do it and have to destroy it 
A few weeks later to get subs out 

I’ll see what she does tomorrow going let glue dry tonight 

I’m not going carpet it until I hear it first


----------



## oabeieo

commerce bank near me


----------



## oabeieo

Well it’s painfully inefficient (which I sorta wanted) 
But it sounds really good. I measured with REw in car and it looked very very similar as far as what Winisd said except a small dip at 38hz (2db) and it’s 21db high at 18hz 

I used rephase and pushed the phase back up and linearized the rolloff 
That made the box sound really good. Than I ran a Dirac and looked at how it handeled it as far as midbass intregration , I knew that would be tricky with the radical phase change in the 50-60hz range. The Dirac made it work nicely and corrected midbass to sub issue. 

The box doesn’t get banging loud with 1000w on it. But it shakes like a muthafukka which is what I wanted , I wanted the amount of bass of 1-12 but to feel the bass of 2-12s 
It digs super deep and the +18db gain at 80hz from the front port completely makes the 80hz dip gone for the most part. 

The bass has almost no distortion at all. I don’t hear any ringings and it’s tight and punchy as well. 

Overall , a waste of money if your looking for output for the dollar. But it has a very warm sound and has a rumble down low that shakes the car but isn’t doing 150db to get there.

So far I love it. 

Porting the 3” port into the front chamber definitely helps port noise or chaffing as the front chamber has some pressure and the pressure is reduced at the opening with the bigger 6”x6” opening . That helped keep the output down and helps to keep the subs more transient for a ported design . 

I wasn’t looking to maximize efficiency. I went the opposite direction, I wanted good clean bass and to feel the bass more and for it to be tight and dig super deep
I think I accomplished my goal

The downside is a 200lb 5cu gross enclosure that is extremely inefficient and big and heavyweight.....


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> commerce bank near me




That looks so sick!!! Will you be running this on 31st? 


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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> That looks so sick!!! Will you be running this on 31st?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes ! 

I’ll carpet the box tho .

So far it’s ****n smashing. 
Just went on a night drive and I so much smiled and missed the horns and a system


I sorta kick myself in the arse for ever doing on dash horns. I just love to experiment tho so it was worth all of it 
I learned a hell of a lot about car acoustics with on dash horns 

The underdash setup kicks its ass tho. I got the sound to be at the bottom edge of windshield as far as soundstage and it’s W I D E. 
And gosh dam it was so so so so so much easier to do a two seat setup with horns down low. It took 3min if tuning and I was there. 

Absolutely zero delay on and left speakers vs. right. All my delays are at zero except both horns are delayed .71ms equally. 

The car is sounding kick ass I’m super happy Tonight (until I **** something up I’ll keep it like this)


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Yes !
> 
> 
> 
> I’ll carpet the box tho .
> 
> 
> 
> So far it’s ****n smashing.
> 
> Just went on a night drive and I so much smiled and missed the horns and a system
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I sorta kick myself in the arse for ever doing on dash horns. I just love to experiment tho so it was worth all of it
> 
> I learned a hell of a lot about car acoustics with on dash horns
> 
> 
> 
> The underdash setup kicks its ass tho. I got the sound to be at the bottom edge of windshield as far as soundstage and it’s W I D E.
> 
> And gosh dam it was so so so so so much easier to do a two seat setup with horns down low. It took 3min if tuning and I was there.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely zero delay on and left speakers vs. right. All my delays are at zero except both horns are delayed .71ms equally.
> 
> 
> 
> The car is sounding kick ass I’m super happy Tonight (until I **** something up I’ll keep it like this)




Wow two seats and horns that's gonna be mind blowing! Step back from the tools and don't touch anything!


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## oabeieo

Cranked up the gains on the bd1000a1 got out the smd and making 1133w 
Got an impedance peak at 32hz and again at 56hz and pulls amp down to 303w 
That’s fs and the ports , it’s basically 1hz off from what winisd said it would do. 

This box I think is heavier than the 2-15s box. 

I think next I’ll do a 8w7 in a much smaller bandpass , I think I can get the same output and sound from an 8w7 

Or maybe I should just do 4 6w3s and add a tactile transducer


----------



## oabeieo

Well 
I smoked a sub 

Hooked up 2 punch 200s one to each one bridged 
Something went wrong 

It sounded awesome till I smelt burnt bandaids and hot voice could 

Them are crunch subwoofers now


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Well
> 
> I smoked a sub
> 
> 
> 
> Hooked up 2 punch 200s one to each one bridged
> 
> Something went wrong
> 
> 
> 
> It sounded awesome till I smelt burnt bandaids and hot voice could
> 
> 
> 
> Them are crunch subwoofers now




Now what's the plan?


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----------



## rton20s

oabeieo said:


> Well
> I smoked a sub
> 
> Hooked up 2 punch 200s one to each one bridged
> Something went wrong
> 
> It sounded awesome till I smelt burnt bandaids and hot voice could
> 
> Them are crunch subwoofers now


Bummer. I look forward to see what you do next. Is the enclosure a total loss then?


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Now what's the plan?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Throw it away ....

Idk it was too heavy , I really liked how sounded 
Maybe I’ll just not have subs the B&C 10s I’m getting should play down to 40 
And a little bass rolloff sounds good 

Maybe do tactile transducers under seat to fell it more 


I definitely over powered them , the punch 200 bridged was doing about 700w to each of them and I was kinda goin for it with the volume


----------



## oabeieo

rton20s said:


> Bummer. I look forward to see what you do next. Is the enclosure a total loss then?


No .....my coworker just offered to swap the subs for me .....
I think I’ll try it one more time ....I keep the bd1k on this time and take it easy


----------



## oabeieo

Well .......so I’m my depression my boys helped me out 
They pulled the box , swaping it for me right now ....slow day at work 
It’s so awesome. That made my day today. New subs , the bd going back in now . 

Guess I will keep it now


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Well .......so I’m my depression my boys helped me out
> 
> They pulled the box , swaping it for me right now ....slow day at work
> 
> It’s so awesome. That made my day today. New subs , the bd going back in now .
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I will keep it now




It's only gotta last till the 31st! Don't blow em up again 


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## oabeieo

I just always seem to get an itch to see what a speaker can do pushed to its max . 

I’ll calm down now...... 

All better back in biz


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> I just always seem to get an itch to see what a speaker can do pushed to its max .
> 
> 
> 
> I’ll calm down now......
> 
> 
> 
> All better back in biz




Sick!!!!!


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## oabeieo

Did some timing tests on each sub. 
I think I’m going to hook back up the pair of dsm200s 
I need to ajust the timing and levels independent on each iso half 
I got an idea....I’ll gain it down this time and be more serious 

I think I can tweak each sub to play together better .


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Did some timing tests on each sub.
> 
> I think I’m going to hook back up the pair of dsm200s
> 
> I need to ajust the timing and levels independent on each iso half
> 
> I got an idea....I’ll gain it down this time and be more serious
> 
> 
> 
> I think I can tweak each sub to play together better .




What dsp are you using?


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## oabeieo

Dsp (s) :-o 

I have 5 dsps , 4 mini 2x4hds and a mini ddrc22d Dirac live room correction 
All filtering is finite impulse. Either as a minimum phase or linear phase filter. 
It’s mixed phase filtering done in a finite instruction


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Dsp (s) :-o
> 
> 
> 
> I have 5 dsps , 4 mini 2x4hds and a mini ddrc22d Dirac live room correction
> 
> All filtering is finite impulse. Either as a minimum phase or linear phase filter.
> 
> It’s mixed phase filtering done in a finite instruction




That sounds awesome but I have no idea what that means 


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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> That sounds awesome but I have no idea what that means
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering


----------



## Elgrosso

Wow this box is insane, and it fits in the trunk??
You have a pic once inside?



oabeieo said:


> Did some timing tests on each sub.
> I think I’m going to hook back up the pair of dsm200s
> I need to ajust the timing and levels independent on each iso half
> I got an idea....I’ll gain it down this time and be more serious
> 
> I think I can tweak each sub to play together better .


How do you measure them independently in such a mount?


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Wow this box is insane, and it fits in the trunk??
> You have a pic once inside?
> 
> 
> 
> How do you measure them independently in such a mount?


YES it fits ..

Barely 

As far as measurements go DATS is the only way I know , 
And it yields woofer data , my guess is to get them to match each other via power and timing (tiny changes) I am going to have to explore the how to and teach myself out of trials


----------



## oabeieo

Well , 
I’m in another stereo depression, I need better midbass and don’t ever have time to do my car. 

I want to do the 2118h in the floor but I can’t get time ....


I honestly missing the dash setup , it was so much better in many ways but ****ty in others 


There’s days the underdash horns kick ass and I get in car the next day (same time) and seems like everything is on the floor , maybe I need to do a upper door mid .....


----------



## oabeieo

JUst started all over with the tune 

Put the horns down to 800hz and ran it 

The ddrc really likes to flip the polarity one the right horn , it looks like a 2nd order all pass at 800hz so I was like UUGH that’s right at crossover ! 

So, I flipped the polarity on the 6Nd430 and than ran the DRC , post DRC sounded like arse 
Ran Near field to whole right side seperate drivers 

Post DRC I added a 250hz APF q1 on HLCD right side and put the 6nd back in normal polarity, remeasured and listened and it’s awesome now . No stereo depression happy again

Got the horns to completely disappear and it’s pretty much now 100% psychoacoustic perceptions as far as stage placement 

Listened to a track I been using for awhile that has a vocal in center and a backup vocal that toggles between left and right and got the right horn to finally sound far back and be equal to left 

DRC tried to make phase match the best on both sides but the right side dosent won’t that much phase moved.

Steel guitar pops like a live steel now. That is very awesome , I can’t wait to put the 2118 in


----------



## oabeieo

Had a chance to listen today. Horns definitely sound dialed in , 
I usually listen at loud levels for only a day or two than the critical ear comes out once my audio fever has gone down. Listened to James Taylor live , sounded great at about 105db 

Stage is pushed way back and horns and has almost layers to the depth starting at the front of dash to the farthest corner of windshield (54” deep) 250-1k area is strong (almost too strong) 

Getting the left channel to appear it’s limits is far forward and left corner of windshield was easy , the right wanted to come from the right door, doing that flip flop on speakers worked and got the far right to come from right corner of lower windshield as well. However , there’s definitely a “misalignment “ to get there. This is definitely the part where measurements do not dictate what sounds better. 

Seems there’s some frequencies fighting the door mid in the horn roll off stop band , 
I bet I know right where they are , the combfilter interference frequencies, time to get rephase out and utilize my 10ms time window and do some corrections with the 1024 taps available on each horn. This will be a first using phase eq on horn stop band. 

It’s crazy how deep a 800hz LR4 crossover on a horn actually plays down to and how low it interacts with door mid. The horn audibly interacts with door mid down to 150hz. That’s crazy low to be putting out any output, I’m sure it so low in amplitude that is not damaging the horn, the horn can’t reinforce down that far because it’s size , but the air still still comes out of the mouth and interacts with door mid. 

I’m going to try a medium q phase eq cut 22.5deg at 794hz ,45deg at 327hz and 90deg at 198hz (Q=5 or so) 

If I do that to the right horn I think I’ll get it, if it doesn’t work I bet it will if I switch it to the left


----------



## oabeieo

When the 10ndl64 gets here I’m going put on the cd10nd and try those again

If I can cross at 700 instead of 800 I’ll be set


----------



## oabeieo

Got Dirac 2.0 (beta) running. Can’t say much about it as per confidentially until it’s release.

The ddrc24 will release first Than the ddrc22d 

Guys, this is something to get excited about. 
It corrects for combfilters in off set seating and so far it’s truly amazing 
I got the ****n glory hole first time tuning with one of its selections. 

The way this thing handles underdash horns at 800hz with no pre tune , just crossovers only is remarkable. Getting underdash horns to have good stage height and nailed down center and integrate to a door speaker is no easy task. You can’t just put a crossover on them and make the response flat, there’s much more to it to get it correct. Furthermore, the stage is stable and accurate at all listening levels (system linearity). AND In both seat to boot.


----------



## Jscoyne2

Neat. Still got a 10db limit?

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## oabeieo

10db is more boost than I’ll ever use being that I don’t use any ever 
. 

So I don’t know


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> 10db is more boost than I’ll ever use being that I don’t use any ever
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> So I don’t know


I meant didn't you and elgrosso find that it has a 10db cut limit.

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## Elgrosso

Jscoyne2 said:


> I meant didn't you and elgrosso find that it has a 10db cut limit.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


10db boost limit yes, well v1.0.
(or maybe 15db? I don't remember)


----------



## oabeieo

I remember there was 10db boost limit 

But I’ve cut 15 in my overall with slope and cutting with success


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

My 1st hornresp creation

So far it’s badddd assss 

Did a 90 in the port to stop a turbulent problem in back wall near throat 

4 ft.³ gross rear chamber , 3.6 ft.³ net , 2 ft.³ front chamber tuned 32/80


This thing has gobs of output. Had to gain down -10db to match everything 

Mad an afp for sub and linear crossover , caused minor issue with phase on ports and caused a loss , (not that I don’t have enough to make up for it) at 55hz (which I have 12db cabin gain anyway) 

It’s louder than the 2-SA15s sealed , not as transient but digs down and I can feel the bass 
Box is super windy , moves a lot of air. 

Got that awesome 6th order sound to it, and is super punchy. 

Got an 80hz tune on front with only a 3”long port , long ports act as a filter so it still plays to 250hz in the rolloff making it super punchy 

Baltic birch wood is great , I’ll never use mfd again, sub weighs more than box 
Total with sub 69lbs (sub is 40lbs ish) so I love it 

Tons of output and not too heavy


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Got to love the old skill Rockford bass knob, it’s a wide band 18+dB boost at 45hz 

I can do my tune for sq, and barley have the sub playing and eq down all the bulk so I can get to 20hz, which is well into the rolloff , that’s a lot of eq cut and makes box high side sound a lot like a direct radiator , than when I want to party just kick up the boost controller and get the gain without bringing up everything to crossover , makes a nice transition to midbass and still lets me party 

In sq mode , sub is virtually getting less than 20w if that. The 10” midbass provide most of the bass and being they have no HPF it works great ....... yeah big waste of space for most of my listening, but when my son rides with me we like to turn up the bass 
Tons of fun


----------



## Jscoyne2

Fr chart?

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----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Fr chart?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




Oh man that would mean screenshots 
I’ll try , I get to post on here from my phone , but making screenshots is tough 
That means I have to take out my laptop and all of the measurement and make screenshot and post them from laptop 

With 7kids and work 60hrs a week. All my laptoptime goes to tuning 
and I don’t get to tune as much as I want unless I wait till all the kids in bed and by that time I’m wiped out....

I’ll try , hows that, I might have to take a photo of laptop to post because of time sakes But I’ll try tonight


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Oh man that would mean screenshots
> 
> I’ll try , I get to post on here from my phone , but making screenshots is tough
> 
> That means I have to take out my laptop and all of the measurement and make screenshot and post them from laptop
> 
> 
> 
> With 7kids and work 60hrs a week. All my laptoptime goes to tuning
> 
> and I don’t get to tune as much as I want unless I wait till all the kids in bed and by that time I’m wiped out....
> 
> 
> 
> I’ll try , hows that, I might have to take a photo of laptop to post because of time sakes But I’ll try tonight


Quick phone photo 

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----------



## oabeieo

Deal


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Heres some funk for ya 

So the 6th order his super hard and punchy on certain bass punches 
But others , like some types of boomy punchy notes it sounds like it has no transient response and falls on its face badly, I think most ported designs suffer from this 

Well , just the right eq completely solves this issue. It sounds fine now 
And has less output 

OTOH to do this right it takes the output down to about the output of a sealed system 
But with better bottom end. Even tho it’s capable of getting way way louder , it sounds better with eq on it.


This sub box is really fun to listen to. Could be my favorite 6th order I’ve made. 
Hard to say but it’s very fun


----------



## oabeieo

Put the 10NDL64-4 back in 

Woot woot


----------



## oabeieo

nearest open gas station from my location


----------



## oabeieo

We’re all gonna dye ! 

Got a tap n dye set from snapon today 
And a double flare kit


----------



## Jscoyne2

You're dirac background is hilarious

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----------



## oabeieo

I tell you I’m a goof I’m the biggest fan boy ever


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I tell you I’m a goof I’m the biggest fan boy ever


Because you actually understand it

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----------



## oabeieo

Sorta .....

I wish I fully understand it 


I think I might sell the U-15 

It’s loud and hits so so low it’s a dream box for some 
But , too much for me .... I miss the sealed box transients 
Ported boxes are so rough around the edges. 

So it’s for sale


----------



## oabeieo

So I put the love of my life on the Stevens horn

The JBL2408H one f in bad ass kick ass stomping everything compression driver 
This driver does so amazingly well. 

It has a big dip at 10k and rolls off after that, dosent want to play super high but for some reason , it sounds better like that. 

The ring radiator Diaphram has absolutely no audible breakup modes what so ever , 
Crossed at 1.6k LR4 this driver on the underdash alignment is kick butt I should have tried it sooner in underdash . 

So, ran a Dirac 2.0 session, Dirac does all my eq work, it reinforces all my combfiltering car has tons of pop to it , it’s the glory hole 1st try with Dirac . Stage is deep and wide and center is high and on point . 

I’m convicinced Dirac 2.0 is in no way a shortcut or a alternative to tuning. 
This dsp can tune just as good as any of the very best tuners especially with horns. 
I would put money on that.

What a whole day or two in tuning and listening this does in 10min and does a better job! Period! 

Here’s the deal. Most very experienced tuners will say an auto tune can’t tiune as good as a person. I would contend there’s a bit of pride involved in this logic and the times are changing. Dirac is sweeping the tuning and dsp arena and they have the goods to back it up. In no way am I saying an experienced tuner can’t make a good result, that’s silly I’ve done it for 20years and I know industry leaders that can tune a car like no other. 

I’ve been against any auto tune device because I’ve never had anything but mediocre results, like the ms8 or any of the audison equipment.

This 2.0 in a car is very very good. Like extremely good. I’ve done 4 diffrent tuning sessions with it , every set of nice and clean loud measurements I’ve taken it nails it first time 

The algo also gives a recommended target curve for your environment and it’s recommended seems to sound the best. This revision of Dirac is going to be popular once people start to listen to some cars with it .


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Here’s another thing Dirac does that a plane Jane dsp can’t at least with horns 

When I had the compneo on , crosses at 800 , when I manipulate TA and polarity and crossovers and eq to get the stage up high and vocal centered a lot of times it had a artifact that sounded like even dynamic recordings and hi res files would sound like FM radio. The psychoacoustic image would have a timbre that would have a flat boring sound and made it sound somewhat lame. If I sacrificed stage height the problem would go away but so would my nice and high center image . Like the parts of the midrange that create the psychoacoustic image had a misalignment to get the stage up high. 

This places image up high and dosent have those characteristics at all. High stage and psychoacoustic image has the same timbre as the response.. it definitely does something good in that sense

Someone could give a smart ass remark and say I didn’t do it right. 
But when you sit for hours upon hours day after day week after week year after year and try every single combination possible to no avail , I would say a plane Jane dsp just can’t . And I’ve had that issue on a lot of cars (except the Ford Focus that car just wanted horns so bad it was amazing)


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> So I put the love of my life on the Stevens horn
> 
> 
> 
> The JBL2408H one f in bad ass kick ass stomping everything compression driver
> 
> This driver does so amazingly well.
> 
> 
> 
> It has a big dip at 10k and rolls off after that, dosent want to play super high but for some reason , it sounds better like that.
> 
> 
> 
> The ring radiator Diaphram has absolutely no audible breakup modes what so ever ,
> 
> Crossed at 1.6k LR4 this driver on the underdash alignment is kick butt I should have tried it sooner in underdash .
> 
> 
> 
> So, ran a Dirac 2.0 session, Dirac does all my eq work, it reinforces all my combfiltering car has tons of pop to it , it’s the glory hole 1st try with Dirac . Stage is deep and wide and center is high and on point .
> 
> 
> 
> I’m convicinced Dirac 2.0 is in no way a shortcut or a alternative to tuning.
> 
> This dsp can tune just as good as any of the very best tuners especially with horns.
> 
> I would put money on that.
> 
> 
> 
> What a whole day or two in tuning and listening this does in 10min and does a better job! Period!
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s the deal. Most very experienced tuners will say an auto tune can’t tiune as good as a person. I would contend there’s a bit of pride involved in this logic and the times are changing. Dirac is sweeping the tuning and dsp arena and they have the goods to back it up. In no way am I saying an experienced tuner can’t make a good result, that’s silly I’ve done it for 20years and I know industry leaders that can tune a car like no other.
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve been against any auto tune device because I’ve never had anything but mediocre results, like the ms8 or any of the audison equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> This 2.0 in a car is very very good. Like extremely good. I’ve done 4 diffrent tuning sessions with it , every set of nice and clean loud measurements I’ve taken it nails it first time
> 
> 
> 
> The algo also gives a recommended target curve for your environment and it’s recommended seems to sound the best. This revision of Dirac is going to be popular once people start to listen to some cars with it .


You're gonna make me broke. You know that right?

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Here’s another thing Dirac does that a plane Jane dsp can’t at least with horns
> 
> 
> 
> When I had the compneo on , crosses at 800 , when I manipulate TA and polarity and crossovers and eq to get the stage up high and vocal centered a lot of times it had a artifact that sounded like even dynamic recordings and hi res files would sound like FM radio. The psychoacoustic image would have a timbre that would have a flat boring sound and made it sound somewhat lame. If I sacrificed stage height the problem would go away but so would my nice and high center image . Like the parts of the midrange that create the psychoacoustic image had a misalignment to get the stage up high.
> 
> 
> 
> This places image up high and dosent have those characteristics at all. High stage and psychoacoustic image has the same timbre as the response.. it definitely does something good in that sense
> 
> 
> 
> Someone could give a smart ass remark and say I didn’t do it right.
> 
> But when you sit for hours upon hours day after day week after week year after year and try every single combination possible to no avail , I would say a plane Jane dsp just can’t . And I’ve had that issue on a lot of cars (except the Ford Focus that car just wanted horns so bad it was amazing)


How do you use dirac with horns? Set basic x/o and let dirac do the rest? 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Jscoyne2 said:


> You're gonna make me broke. You know that right?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


No kidding, the dude literally has me contemplating placing a DDRC22D in front of my MiniDSP 8x12 v2 (soon to be DL). The hell is wrong with me? Haha


----------



## Jscoyne2

GreatLaBroski said:


> No kidding, the dude literally has me contemplating placing a DDRC22D in front of my MiniDSP 8x12 v2 (soon to be DL). The hell is wrong with me? Haha


I have a feeling the DL will be a big deal but if 2.0 is as much of an upgrade and he's making it sound. It will be worth waiting to see if the DL gets 2.0

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Jscoyne2 said:


> GreatLaBroski said:
> 
> 
> 
> No kidding, the dude literally has me contemplating placing a DDRC22D in front of my MiniDSP 8x12 v2 (soon to be DL). The hell is wrong with me? Haha
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling the DL will be a big deal but if 2.0 is as much of an upgrade and he's making it sound. It will be worth waiting to see if the DL gets 2.0
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

They said it’s not getting 2.0 just yet because it’s better for them to push a known stable build for a new deployment versus new software on newly Dirac hardware (paraphrasing of course). This means to me that we’ll see Dirac 2.0 on it eventually but not at the DL’s launch.


----------



## oabeieo

I am really wishing the automotive one would emerge, but this does the job, and I’ve heard a few factory cars that supposedly use the automotive version and it’s sad **** 
But again, every speaker is 2$ paper special with a fancy badge on it or some lame **** like that, and no imaging whatsoever.....although I heard a factory Audi that actually sounded pretty good if you balanced it to right 2clicks and put it on driver focus on factory radio 

Today I tuned 12 dsps , 5 masconis, 3 jl audio vxi amps , a twk88 ,and a AudioControl dm810 , one of the vxi had 3 profiles so that counts as three 

My ears are so tired! 
Worked on sound room all day....


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> How do you use dirac with horns? Set basic x/o and let dirac do the rest?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Basically just set crossovers and go.

Post Dirac sometimes I have to turn entire left side down like 1db to get vocal nicely in middle of dash 
But that’s only with low horn crossover points (800hz) with horns at1.6k I just set crossovers and go and do nothing really .... 


I can always tell when it’s right especially when I get in car the next day and everything sounds as good as it did when I did measurements. 

Sometimes my ears get tired and I think it’s perfect and go out next day and it’s all different. 

But with the 2.0 and a higher crossover on horn , it’s very consistent.


The auto target is definitely the best as well , sometimes I’ll bump the entire target down below the zero dB line on graph so I’m not in boost, but retain the same shape and definitely keep the curtain setting it wants. 

Lately it’s been curtian off everything below 90hz and above 10k (does phase adjustment but ignores it for eq , and produces the best results, the 1st dip at 80 and the second dip at 160 I think it only wants to fix one , and ignore the other , and it definitely sounds better like that. The one at 80 it still does what it can with phase just no eq on it , (would be worthless anyway to dump 10db of boost . If the second null (which is one oactave up) is corrected some 80hz will come out of it because of harmonics rule


----------



## oabeieo

I’ve tryed it with plane old iir crossovers and fir crossover that I’ve spent weeks designing and implementing, bot ways sound very good, I like my fir crossovers on sub to midbass and than Dirac over that. That’s to me it’s the cats meow , but a well done iir crossover can barely really tell the difference


----------



## Elgrosso

Man that’s very good news, maybe I should have kept my DL sharc... 
I'll try at home with the SHD and if I like it...


----------



## oabeieo

It does something with the left and right. I’ve noticed and measured it looks at frequency response and adds an all pass (not any old all pass a very unusual one or a cascade of them not sure) and picks one spot in the modal range and works on canceling from combs. 

It does a fairly good job.


----------



## oabeieo

SO 

Out of curiosity I did “the ultimate pre tune” and really nailed down all eq and timing and got it as best I can , especially crossover alignment, and than ran it. 

I had one (1) frequency (1240hz) that was about 10db high with a q of about 8 that was just out of control on the midrange and horn because of the car caused and a deep drop null at 746 with a Q of about 15 and a peak at 842 again very high Q 

Dirac definitely made the response flat and overall the results were the same except that one frequency 1240hz sounds better with the pre tune.....everything else sounds the same as if I did no pre tune at all. I turned on some crossovers got them to sound decent and ran it , done.....


With the pre tune it only made that one fly away not so ear popping and only at extreme volumes.

So I curtained off everything except 500hz to 1.6khz and let Dirac only fix that midrange and let my pretune do the rest. I’m kinda liking that one right now, but it sounds so so so similar to the Dirac. 


I think I’ll try switching the Dirac to be a sub eq only next and TA the highs to meet up with the delay from the Dirac box. I bet this is going to be stellar. 

I think a true 8ch Dirac is where I want to go next


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> SO
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity I did “the ultimate pre tune” and really nailed down all eq and timing and got it as best I can , especially crossover alignment, and than ran it.
> 
> 
> 
> I had one (1) frequency (1240hz) that was about 10db high with a q of about 8 that was just out of control on the midrange and horn because of the car caused and a deep drop null at 746 with a Q of about 15 and a peak at 842 again very high Q
> 
> 
> 
> Dirac definitely made the response flat and overall the results were the same except that one frequency 1240hz sounds better with the pre tune.....everything else sounds the same as if I did no pre tune at all. I turned on some crossovers got them to sound decent and ran it , done.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the pre tune it only made that one fly away not so ear popping and only at extreme volumes.
> 
> 
> 
> So I curtained off everything except 500hz to 1.6khz and let Dirac only fix that midrange and let my pretune do the rest. I’m kinda liking that one right now, but it sounds so so so similar to the Dirac.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I’ll try switching the Dirac to be a sub eq only next and TA the highs to meet up with the delay from the Dirac box. I bet this is going to be stellar.
> 
> 
> 
> I think a true 8ch Dirac is where I want to go next


Do some long term listening on the a/b testing of dirac only and full pretune. Its only been a day. Maybe you'll start to find differences

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Do some long term listening on the a/b testing of dirac only and full pretune. Its only been a day. Maybe you'll start to find differences
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


It’s been 10min!

I just got done , after a whole day of doing the ultimate pre tune


----------



## oabeieo

The 2408H is sounding so good tho now 

I kinda (sorta) like my pre tune better ——-I got to play with some targets first

But the results sound so stinking similar it’s not funny..........


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> The 2408H is sounding so good tho now
> 
> 
> 
> I kinda (sorta) like my pre tune better ——-I got to play with some targets first
> 
> 
> 
> But the results sound so stinking similar it’s not funny..........


Thats good tho! I just mean. Do some listening for a few days before you start changing things heh. Maybe get some other ears in on it

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

So .....the wife says it sound better with a pre tune.......
And she likes my tune better with no Dirac 
She says it has more life to it ( :-/) hummmmm 

Grosso ......... did you find it had more life with a manual tune


----------



## KG089

What is wrong really with so so
So similar to the Dirac since you said it like tuned you In terrific 
In almost no time except that 10db area you needed to hand smooth


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> So .....the wife says it sound better with a pre tune.......
> And she likes my tune better with no Dirac
> She says it has more life to it ( :-/) hummmmm
> 
> Grosso ......... did you find it had more life with a manual tune


Kind of man, but no only, as I didn't lose that much with some of the best pre-tune.
I don't really know why but I preferred without.
It’s like if with Dirac it was almost clinical, too precise, I like the image a little more blurry, with more "atmosphere".
Funny because at home it's the opposite, I prefer with DL or it really gets too blurry (but I’m still working on this).


----------



## Jscoyne2

Elgrosso said:


> Kind of man, but no only, as I didn't lose that much with some of the best pre-tune.
> 
> I don't really know why but I preferred without.
> 
> It’s like if with Dirac it was almost clinical, too precise, I like the image a little more blurry, with more "atmosphere".
> 
> Funny because at home it's the opposite, I prefer with DL or it really gets too blurry (but I’m still working on this).


Maybe its just that we're so used to slightly blurry and eqing based on close ear spatial averaging, that when you get a Dirac corrected amplitude and phase power response correction that is so damn perfect. It sounds wrong.

Like driving your first two cars that always pull right and then a new one 5 years later that drives perfectly. You're still expecting and driving to the left so slightly.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Kind of man, but no only, as I didn't lose that much with some of the best pre-tune.
> I don't really know why but I preferred without.
> It’s like if with Dirac it was almost clinical, too precise, I like the image a little more blurry, with more "atmosphere".
> Funny because at home it's the opposite, I prefer with DL or it really gets too blurry (but I’m still working on this).


Yeah it’s very precise indeed , I’ve used the curtains quite a bit and only have it nail down the midrange and let my tune do the bass and the highs with good results, but when it does it all at moderate volumes it just kicks my ass every time and has so much ambiance and space to it. But at louder levels my tune definitely sounds better because I think it’s doing too much to frequencies that the car doesn’t want to do, but it makes it do it , and it does it good...


I’ve tryed Dirac only on subs and that seems very excellent and makes me want more Dirac channels. 

However, if I do a full Dirac tune and follow the dips with my target just a little with a wide q in the midrange and at 80hz where’s there such a bad suckout it to me seems impeccable. But the pre tune honestly dosent do anything beneficial UNLESS I have a stray frequency in the stop band that needs to go down especially on the horn to mid crossover. 

I know what you mean by blurry , that is where I am convinced using time misalignment delay too much on left side to force a strong center image really ruins the spaciousness. Blurry I think is maybe a bad expression for a wide soundstage, because the vocal is still centered it just appears farther back than the boundary of the car so your brain automatically thinks diffuse or blurry when it’s actually not and it more correct than anything. 

And than there’s days I want the center image planted firmly on the dash and in the center at the cost of stage width. But with that said it very much depends on the recording at the time I’m making these judgments. Some tracks are way back and have a deep soundstage and some tracks have a strong centered vocal.


When I had horns up top it had both , so I know if I do the midbass in the floor behind my brake pedal and in pass footwell I can get the pld down to a point that I can get the center super strong and still have the width that I like. 

In my focus I had image dynamics 5x7s and horns and the stock locations and underdash horns and that car had such a strong center it sounded like there was a center channel. I liked that car so much , and I had rears also the same PLD as the fronts and used the rears with delay to reinforce the fronts. So I used the rears as a delay on the left to make the center and did no TA on fronts and man that was hot **** , I wish I could make this car sound like that did. I don’t have a upper door location, I’m going to try the floor cut first than do to thupper doors if that won’t do what I want. 

I hate car interior. 




Jscoyne2 said:


> Maybe its just that we're so used to slightly blurry and eqing based on close ear spatial averaging, that when you get a Dirac corrected amplitude and phase power response correction that is so damn perfect. It sounds wrong.
> 
> Like driving your first two cars that always pull right and then a new one 5 years later that drives perfectly. You're still expecting and driving to the left so slightly.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




It dosent sound wrong, it’s the opposite of wrong. It sound right. Too right I think it what he meant. 




Eric said in another post in which I fully agree , do what needs to be done with signal manipulation to get the stage how it should be , weather it’s wrong or right , in the end if it sounds better what difference does it make. 

With so much early reflections, there’s no such thing as a perfect time alignment, it’s about getting the initial room response to reinforce a soundstage.


----------



## oabeieo

Put the cd10nd on 

What a piece of crap! 

They sound very good WHEN THEY WORK! 

I’ve swapped the diaphragms two times in this driver , and I’ve only used this driver maybe a couple days tops all together. What a hunk of **** this issue is 

The top end is like 20db higher than the rest ( which sounds great after a holy ton of eq) 
I just want this driver to work because it has extremely detailed midrange using a LR4 at 900 seems perfect but the one just won’t work right. Makes me sad this could’ve been a fav 


I need to try a new CD. I’m getting the itch for something new
Maybe something titanium or be 

I’m going look for something fun


----------



## oabeieo

the cd10nd working again 

And they not a pice of crap anymore. 
They sound great! 

Not as much love as the 2408h in the 1.6-5k range but in the 700-1400hz range they are superb , extreme transparency in sound. They kinda suck at the 2k-4K range and them come back with lots of highs , not as detailed highs as I like but it’s there and lots of it 
Maybe try some eq work to get it better 

Really enjoyable driver tho , definitely something I’ll keep on for a minute 


Had to make a tape gasket out of masking tape the done was actually smashed up against the side wall of the phase plug (thanks Eric) I got some expert help figuring that one out. 
It was really hard to see but once I finally saw what was going on it was obvious 

And thanks Hatedguy the masking tape trick seems to work just fine , no noticeable difference at all . Sounds perfect actually. 


Uugh stereo maintenance!


----------



## Elgrosso

Wtf where’s my post? I’ve been kicked out few times when hitting send.
Pfff...

Well glad you figured it out!

You were right it’s more about width and an ‘’envelopping’’ sound than a blur effect. Blur is not negative in my mind, as soon as it’s kept to the right level. The center is still strong but just not too strong to drive everything.
With dirac it felt too constrained, probably a mix of lower dynamic and too much optimized for 1 seat tune.
Now it's not as wide as a full cone setup in doors, but it’s so much more coherent that it's not even a trade off.

But you know what, I never played much with the curtains, always left them around 20hz-16/18Khz. I should have tried (too late in car now ).
At home I might, I changed few things, motsly the room, and now I like it quite a bit with dirac off. None is perfect yet, on or off, so I think next steps would be to drive it to focus on specific areas only.


----------



## Jscoyne2

Yes. Continue messing with it. So i can get it and know what to do.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

We’ll , 

The Dirac is going in the wife’s new van , and the HD’s with a Bt to toslink adaptation 

I’m getting the opendrc da8 with over 9000taps per channel. 

I have enough experience now to make a 3 or 4 pole all pass in fir on my own 
FFT will be a bit long but as long as I watch my envolope time curve and group delay on each filter set I shouldn’t have any smearing. Or minimal . Just watch my Qs and keep them wide as possible and watch the delay at each pole. 

Determining the acoustic quadrature will have to be carefully measured but shouldn’t be a big deal. (Kinda wish I had time to do the whole screen shots thing. 
Maybe I’ll document the process this time (I always say that) I just only get so much time to myself and never get what I want done


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> We’ll ,
> 
> 
> 
> The Dirac is going in the wife’s new van , and the HD’s with a Bt to toslink adaptation
> 
> 
> 
> I’m getting the opendrc da8 with over 9000taps per channel.
> 
> 
> 
> I have enough experience now to make a 3 or 4 pole all pass in fir on my own
> 
> FFT will be a bit long but as long as I watch my envolope time curve and group delay on each filter set I shouldn’t have any smearing. Or minimal . Just watch my Qs and keep them wide as possible and watch the delay at each pole.
> 
> 
> 
> Determining the acoustic quadrature will have to be carefully measured but shouldn’t be a big deal. (Kinda wish I had time to do the whole screen shots thing.
> 
> Maybe I’ll document the process this time (I always say that) I just only get so much time to myself and never get what I want done


Now how many people understand wtf you just said.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

I don’t know^ 

Anyway.....

I also forgot to add , I’ve been using LR8 crossovers on everything lately with excellent (quite excellent) results. With the 10s behind me and I have the 6nd430 (for now) in the doors ive been doing 48db at 66 , 120, 200, and a 1 oactave overlapping ( that’s a filter type have to look at rephase to see it) at 900 

I’ve been able to really drive speaker interactions to a absolute minimum and get a whole new ball game going on my fir. 

I have overlap between the doors and 10s in the 120-200 range and the overlapping filter on horns to mids 

This allows me to really get creative with corrections on each set for there locations and I’ve got quite a lot of impact now. Snare hits hard and I DONT have any weird colorations or gains or anything that detracts from high sq to get that like most cases. (Where you have to crank the **** out of 100-500hz and 1.6-3k to get there) 

The only thing I don’t like about the system now is I want the vocal to have much more body to it. (8s up front) I need that. 

I want a set of 8g40s back! (After I try the 2118h out


----------



## Jscoyne2

Dude. Do you compete?

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chris12

Jscoyne2 said:


> oabeieo said:
> 
> 
> 
> We’ll ,
> 
> 
> 
> The Dirac is going in the wife’s new van , and the HD’s with a Bt to toslink adaptation
> 
> 
> 
> I’m getting the opendrc da8 with over 9000taps per channel.
> 
> 
> 
> I have enough experience now to make a 3 or 4 pole all pass in fir on my own
> 
> FFT will be a bit long but as long as I watch my envolope time curve and group delay on each filter set I shouldn’t have any smearing. Or minimal . Just watch my Qs and keep them wide as possible and watch the delay at each pole.
> 
> 
> 
> Determining the acoustic quadrature will have to be carefully measured but shouldn’t be a big deal. (Kinda wish I had time to do the whole screen shots thing.
> 
> Maybe I’ll document the process this time (I always say that) I just only get so much time to myself and never get what I want done
> 
> 
> 
> Now how many people understand wtf you just said.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking ?

All Greek to me..

I definitely appreciate the information and post though


----------



## Elgrosso

That much overlap? I’d be curious to see some curves, or did you mean just electric overlap?


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Dude. Do you compete?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


If I didn’t I would win. 
(But that also means I would have to actually do my custom work all the way) 
And I love tinkering way too much to actually finish my own car)

I did in the 90s with horns and won every comp I went to (I did 3) 

I have a 85jetta with image dynamics CD2comp and image dynamics idq8s 
And 4 kicker c10s. All off of 4 punch 200dsm amps and a pair of Alesis meq230 eqs and a alpine 7909s cd deck 


I took first in sq in my local events (honestly don’t even remember the sanction iasca or meca) 

So no been there done that, I went up against 3 other people and two of which I did there cars. So kinda boring honestly. 

It would be fun if I didn’t have so many kids and could spend the time. 

I also hated all the silly rules (fusing wire runs battery trays etc etc etc ) $$


----------



## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> That much overlap? I’d be curious to see some curves, or did you mean just electric overlap?


I’ll post some curves just for you 
Got to want till I get home from getting kids from school and starting dinner 


So this eve for sure 


Yeah, I use a one oactave overlapping filter so each speaker goes -6db and the crossover point is one oactave wide


----------



## oabeieo

Okay here's the overlapping filter, the red shows the high pass and blue shows low pass




And the high pass with a standard LR4 at the same frequency, You can see the overlapping filter dosent add much, its super tiny but makes a big diffrence in SQ



And the low Pass side

chevron near me



It definatly get rid of driver interaction with steeper slopes and has a oactave wide "crossover point" instead of the crossover point beinbg one frequency and everything under that is blending...


I like it because it attinuates the horn just enough so it can play down to the 600hz range and blend with the mid and the mid can play up to 1.6k and blend up there to reinforce imaging. the horn by itself sounds dry up in the 1k-1.6k range, and i like to hear the horns dynamics when it has small detail come out in the 500-600hz but not at full power....

its a excellent performing filter set for horns...I love it probably always use it


----------



## oabeieo

And he cd10nd sounds quite good down low so it works

In fact , the cd10nd is the best sounding driver I’ve played under 1k 
The compneo is very good as well , the cd10nd does a tiny bit better tho under 1k 
Above 1k the compneo is better up to 7k where compneo has a mode and cd 10nd has so much more output upbhign


----------



## Holmz

I appreciate the posts.


----------



## oabeieo

Yeah I’ll try to post some revolutionary stuff up as screen shots more often (it’s actually me just reinventing the wheel more than anything)


----------



## oabeieo

Board of the cd10nd 
Compneo back on , when all else fails the compneo always comes through


----------



## oabeieo

Got the wife’s van ready for the Veritas horns. (And if they suck they getting the mini with compneo or 2408h , maybe the 4552nd) 

I’m also doing a evo next week with big horns and mb6’s next week 
If the mb6 works out maybe I’ll get a set to go in the wife’s new van. 
She dosent want me to cut the panels (yet) I’m tempted to just do it anyway and do an 8” i was going to give her the 6nd430s I have but I want to try the mb6 out. 

The evo I’m doing will have 
Big horns, mb6, alpine xa70f , twk88dsp, jl1000/1 , jl12w7ae
Jlxd4004 focal 6.5s (rears) alpine inew940hd 



Hers will have 2- punch 200dsms 1 punch 500a2 
80prs 
1 2x4hd 
Horns and 6s (6nd430 or mb6s , maybe do the mb8) 
4x sundown SA10s 


The old van has the 80prs 
And scan be tweets with Dayton reference 8s 
And a prime rf 4ch (which is going in the trash!) 


The new van I also want to get the new alpine drop down for the brats, the new drop downs from alpine are very nice. Finally something that’s not the cheapo movies to go or audiovox garbage. Those drop downs barley last a year and the alpine we have in the old van has been in since 2001 and still works just fine RSE1020dvd (I think)


----------



## Jscoyne2

Offer the 4channel on the free section

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Okay here's the overlapping filter, the red shows the high pass and blue shows low pass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the high pass with a standard LR4 at the same frequency, You can see the overlapping filter dosent add much, its super tiny but makes a big diffrence in SQ
> 
> 
> 
> And the low Pass side
> 
> chevron near me
> 
> 
> 
> It definatly get rid of driver interaction with steeper slopes and has a oactave wide "crossover point" instead of the crossover point beinbg one frequency and everything under that is blending...
> 
> 
> I like it because it attinuates the horn just enough so it can play down to the 600hz range and blend with the mid and the mid can play up to 1.6k and blend up there to reinforce imaging. the horn by itself sounds dry up in the 1k-1.6k range, and i like to hear the horns dynamics when it has small detail come out in the 500-600hz but not at full power....
> 
> its a excellent performing filter set for horns...I love it probably always use it


I get it now! Super interesting, full custom OX, almost an LR12, then 24 then 48.
Don't have much time right now but I'll try asap!


----------



## oabeieo

I’ve hand three people listen to the fit this week (now that the install is clean and everything mounted the right way) so I’m not embarrassed to show it to people , 

These people know nothing about sq or anything, just customers. 
All of them wanted this system only one could afford it 

But all of them separately said the same thing and used the same phrase 
They all said “wow I can’t believe how good everything is blended together “
Or how good it blends......

Blends.....hummmmmmm what a weird word that is and what are they trying to say. 

Is it smooth frequency, or is it good polar responce , or both or imaging .? 

I’m curious what people are trying to say..... makes me want to study it


----------



## Jscoyne2

I like to sit people in mine and then turn on one pair of speakers at a time.

Midbass, then midrange then tweets. Then sub. And they get to hear how it grows into a cohesive sound and image.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## phroenips

Jscoyne2 said:


> Now how many people understand wtf you just said.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I don't understand the entire thread, yet I keep reading! :laugh:


----------



## oabeieo

So , I ordered the grille material for my custom work. 
Got a cherry set of 2118h 
Got some really nice mystique vynil 
Got the resin and matting 
Get the spot to make the floor incision mapped out 
Taking two vacation days from work to do it. 
Got my routers and bits all organized 


When I go into the wood shop I listen to 
Djquick tonite on repeat 
I’ll probably listen to it about 300x 

The 6th,7th,8th woodroom is mine and the fit going under construction once again. 



When I went to Honda and had the new dash installed (1600$) that cut was reversible 
The floor cut (not so reversible so I better get it right once. 

I really want the 8s to be about 6” away from each corner in dead center of each footwell 
The drivers side is going to be the deal breaker, but we’ll see. If it isn’t going to work, I’ll have to do a standard kick 

But on drivers side ,I can actually have the room to make a 8” pod up slightly under the dash area. That is better than the true kick if I was to pick , but we’ll see .


----------



## oabeieo

ORdered new horns for my car today 
Didn’t realize how many holes I have in this set , going to start over with fresh set, 
Do the compneo, I might order the mb8 Stevens Audio (I would be estatic if I could get them to fit) but might have to keep the 2118h , which is fine 
I love the 2118h in the midrange man that driver sings so well (also wish I could fit the 8g40) the 2118 has a tiny bit smaller basket and depth is tiny bit smaller and I’m going to cram them in as it is . 

I might do away with the Dirac and just run the opendrc sharc .....so we will see ....


----------



## CrimsonCountry

oabeieo said:


> ORdered new horns for my car today
> 
> Didn’t realize how many holes I have in this set , going to start over with fresh set,
> 
> Do the compneo, I might order the mb8 Stevens Audio (I would be estatic if I could get them to fit) but might have to keep the 2118h , which is fine
> 
> I love the 2118h in the midrange man that driver sings so well (also wish I could fit the 8g40) the 2118 has a tiny bit smaller basket and depth is tiny bit smaller and I’m going to cram them in as it is .
> 
> 
> 
> I might do away with the Dirac and just run the opendrc sharc .....so we will see ....


Been drooling over those MB8s for a while. I did just buy that set of PR170M0 and am running the 2118Hs but the MB8 is appealing for a simple 2-way that can also kick below 100hz. 

As for the horn bodies, have you had any success patching up old holes?


----------



## captainobvious

oabeieo said:


> *I really want the 8s to be about 6” away from each corner in dead center of each footwell *
> The drivers side is going to be the deal breaker, but we’ll see. If it isn’t going to work, I’ll have to do a standard kick
> 
> But on drivers side ,I can actually have the room to make a 8” pod up slightly under the dash area. That is better than the true kick if I was to pick , but we’ll see .







Just a forewarning....this *will* affect the perceived width of the soundstage in the vehicle. The further in those midbasses are from the corners, the less width you will get so just keep that in mind. It makes a difference. Keep them as wide as you are able to.


----------



## oabeieo

captainobvious said:


> Just a forewarning....this *will* affect the perceived width of the soundstage in the vehicle. The further in those midbasses are from the corners, the less width you will get so just keep that in mind. It makes a difference. Keep them as wide as you are able to.



Okay. I’m not going to disregard this. In fact I’m
More serious about what your saying. 

I really want equalized path lengths , something tells me if I can get the PLD down to 2” I won’t have to do anything except EQ. 

I have such a strong desire for natural acoustic staging on both seats. I find signal delay seems to really take away from the kind of ambiance and sound I like. 


When I turn off all signal delay and eq my system it sounds so killer with no allpasses or fir or anything but just eq and crossovers however imaging is a wreck. 

I can get the horns to image great with no signal delay. 


So with that said........how bad is it? I like a very strong center that drives everything else, and width is nice also, have you done what I’m thinking? What were your setup parameters did you use signal delay on top of it ? 
I could see the width would be nil with signal delay on top of the speaker location like that:


----------



## oabeieo

CrimsonCountry said:


> Been drooling over those MB8s for a while. I did just buy that set of PR170M0 and am running the 2118Hs but the MB8 is appealing for a simple 2-way that can also kick below 100hz.
> 
> As for the horn bodies, have you had any success patching up old holes?




Yes definitely, I’ve used bondo , tape, whatever works and old holes gone 

Yeah I’ve had hard luck getting the 2118 to go below 200hz at full power IB, the mb8 would work better but with the pr170mo I would even loook at maybe a even lower fs driver maybe one in the 50s to get down to 80 at full power with no enclosure. 

The 2118 is one of the best midrange I’ve ever heard , man that thing just sings upwards 1.6k and has a sibilance that just hits the spot. As far as midbass duty it’s lacking (pretty badly) I have a set in my garage in .3 sealed and they play to 50 and sound really good, so if you can get .3 or so sealed it might work , but there’s better midbass Out there for 70-500hz 

The mbx b&c looks really good , the mb8 is good as well , I would shoot for mid Q fs around 50 with sensitivity around 90db 1/w1m and something with not such a flimsy cone like the 2118


----------



## oabeieo

These are BADASS! 













my co-worker is 90% sure he’s going to buy them 

Wow what a awesome set of components 
Tweeter has a rear chamber 
Crossover has hi volt poly caps and hi end resistance and nice coils 
And that mid! Wow look at that sexy neo , that should fit in any door no problem


----------



## oabeieo

Dug up some archives for my kick build


----------



## oabeieo

I love the way Richard and Dave speak in the A2TB Book 
They talk like me, and explain stuff like me 

Started thinking , that’s where I learned the bulk of what I first learned and I under It the way they explained it back than. Pretty smart guys , too bad they had a bad horn design


----------



## oabeieo

So tonight in prep for my kicks, I did what I learned in a2tb a long time ago with kicks 

I took my 6g40nds and put them on a plate baffle and set them in my kicks , set a crossover to my horn and no TA no EQ no fir no nothing. And moved them in different positions until the psychoacoustic image appears where and how I want it. 

And for the record STEVE YOUNWERE RIGHT DAMMIT! Lol 

It sounds better with them in kicks not in middle of floor board firewall 
It’s wider for sure and the acoustic center is much better with horn 

And to my dismay I have an image with no TA 
It is best with no toe in and no pointing up. Just firing straight forward directly under horn


----------



## oabeieo

Got the rings started for kicks 
I just got a really bad ass router kit it’s like 300pcs 
Has jigs , all kinds of rounds and bits and a plexiglass jig strap 

Out of all that (it’s a 1600$ kit) I didn’t have room to do another shape but plain old round 
Without it getting really BIG and tumorous. 

So I’m doing a sandwich jig of mdf and this high grade HDPE (I don’t think it’s hdpe tho it’s way harder) but it’s 5/8” thick and the kick I’m cutting part of the floor out to flush the 2118h in the floor , I’m going to glass onto the stock kick panel and wrap the whole thing as one piece ...... I’m going to do 6 layers of glass and I got from my buddy a two ply sandwich butyl and urethane Mat that goes on like dynamat and put that in between a couple layers of fiberglass. I should be able to get the .5 ft.³ that the jbl wants. And if it rings like teenage girls phone I have a area where I can pre install a vent to try aperoiodic 
Or vent to outside or ported. 

I got to say , I just plugged them in on the floor burned with a towel around the back and verified my positioning with the 2118h and I fell completely into gloryhole no eq no ta 
Jimminy Christmas I forgot how well this driver performs in the midrange . 

This is exactly what the fit needed. 

I turned the 6nd430 that’s in the door to play 80- LR4 to 200 LR4 and the 2118h at 200 LR4
to 900 with a 1 oactave overlapping fir filter 
The 6nd430 kinda pounds now in the door with the 2118h in kick. Screwed with delay between them a couple points. So the 10s behind the seat came out (FINALLY YAE) 


The 2118h definitely behaves differently than the 6g40 glad I checked , it wants a little toe in to get a good image to emerge. But not much and I’m going to build kicks with very little tow in but just enough to get into the coverage angle on both sides for both seats. 

So I’ll be making my little hot glue gun get a workout with re ajust peg supports on mold and listen and make sure I get it right before I lay glass over ring 


After driving home with them just sitting on floor with no eq and Dirac in bypass mode and that strong ass midrange that just does not give up just singin I’ve decided to turn the Dirac into a opendrc and use it dedicated on sub where I’ll have enough fir to kill all the GD from sub completely. 


If I have time I’m going to put the 6nd430 in sealed boxes in the door, I will have to model it and make sure fb isn’t too high and that I can damp the enclosure enough to get it to play right. We’ll see , I don’t like ringing but like transients, I don’t want more midbass I just want more transient responce and a little better power handling out of the 6nd430 under 100hz


----------



## oabeieo

did the 1st layer on driver side 
After it’s dry I cut the back out and the floor behind and glass a box in 

top 100 baby names 1980


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Nothing to add, just wanted to say I’m loving the build


----------



## oabeieo

Got both sides bases glassed 

Stayed up till 2am with towels around the 2118hs listening and measuring 

Had to crunch some numbers (which I sick at had my brother in law help me) 

Did the 1/4 and 1/2 wave calculations, got the aiming nailed down and the crossover figured out. 

With little tow in it sounded better and was wider (I think Steve got me worried about being wide) however a 4db difference from left and 3db difference from right. 

Had to toe in quite a bit , got the left down to 2 and the right down to 1db , sine swept spl 200-1khz 

The imaging is great in both seats. Have an acoustical offset of .33ms between horn and 2118h 

Imaging is high at top of dash, L LC C RC R are excellent in driver seat and passenger seat is R R C LC L I am 99% sure it’s the tiny passenger compartment and the seat is over to right quite a bit , they clearly gave driver more room. But hey I’m happy center is in same spot as driver and both sides imaging good, have good depth and height and width. 

Crossed the doors at 60bw24 and 227LR4 and pushed the delay back about a ms to align the bass frequencies with the 2118h bass rolloff , I’ll play fir and get it super dialed in later 

Tomorrow I glass the tops and stretch vynil and Monday make the grills


----------



## oabeieo

My woodshop is beat up , I do a lot a lot of custom work , there’s glue and crap all over everywhere ( I wish we had a glue table ) the shop is too small for the volume we do. 

But I’m going to rebuild the wood room soon and do two more routers and re do the table


----------



## oabeieo

So got kicks glassed and ran impedance test on the kicks 
And it was ugly. So , I started drilling holes 

And another sweep. Still ugly 

And more holes

Still ugly 

And more and more and more holes 

And finally now that the kickpannel looks like Swiss cheese the impedance is good and smooth. 

The shape of the kick causing some nasty problems 

When I had the 8s just sitting on floor with a towel around them it was excellent 

Having the 8 flushed in makes it have a big problem 

So I just drilled about 10 2” holes all over my new kicks 

They sounded so superb just resting with a towel around them, the kicks 
Have big issues , but now they sound superb. 

Even tho it’s completely a 1st order enclosure now I definitely can’t vynil them

So I’m going to shop for an acoustical fabric that looks good and will sorta breathe 
So the holes can breathe a little , maybe a tweed or something nice I’ll look


The physical shape of the kicks in the 100-300hz range make them sound hollow 

The holes definitely helped but still hallow and I knew I could fix it with fir 
And it worked , pulled the phase back 10 degrees at 227 Q2 and re measured and listen 
And it’s bad ass again. 

Having the 8 flushed into the kick made the air snap around 150hz in a bad way. 
I made a set of rings to fill in the space and it’s smooth again. 
Very strange. 

When they were sitting in kick with no panel just a towel , I had them crossed at 130 and I insisted on keeping that crossover and same sound as if it’s enclosureless .....I achieved it. 

So the kickpanel is just a frame for a shape now it has no walls, just enough shape for a fabric to follow and look good. 

Maybe suede with the backing peeled off ......maybe a tweed, or velour or something. 

What’s weird is even with 10 2” holes drilled all over the kick panel when music is playing even at low volume I can feel wind coming out of all the holes, 


The 2118h sounds so so superb now, only eq is -2db at 346 Q1.4 that’s it and 346 is a room mode , something about the backwave being able to play also is making it so much better. Like canceling all the issues with the car. I can hear the speaker not the car it’s great. 

Got to say tho. Having fiir and rephase is so handy for that last little bit.

Tomorrow it gets the finish work. And it should look pretty sexy


----------



## oabeieo

And it imaging on both sides is to die for , seriously. 

Center comes in so ****in dam strong on both sides I was very surprised 
Usually with kicks got to add .5ms to get this for one side , it’s nice. 

No ringing what so ever, plays to 130 (LR4) so to 200 at full power (exactly what a 2118 is made to do best) .


There’s no way I’m doing boxes in my doors HAHAHA. That would sound like **** man 
Ever single time I try to put a front stage speaker in some type of enclosure it rings and is so horribly colored. No thanks. I just had to remind myself tonight what a totally joke it is to try to do enclosures for midbass. 

What I am going to do is make the 6Nd430 have a solid 1/2” aluminum mount tho with dynamat and still trick out the door panel so it’s not playing behind the gay factory grill. 


We’ll see how tired I am after I finish my kicks


----------



## oabeieo

So much for making a cut in the floor and making .5cu ft and 
A sealed box or venting 

That did not work. 

OTOH , the kick pods will work this way. 
Completely unexpected, but hey got to do what I got to do 


You might think this looks strange , but believe me this sounds excellent doing it like this 

I’ve resourced as many things as I can for this build and did all the measurements and techniques I could think of to get these to work the best 

You might think it dosent play very low and that’s the point , I didn’t want any colorations to the sound especially under 400hz ....

So here’s the Swiss cheese


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## Blu

Hey Andy,

It looks like the "swiss cheese" ended up being glassed over/covered and the back side of the kick pod was opened up significantly, firing into carpet.
Am I seeing this correctly?

Cheers!
Charles


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Blu said:


> Hey Andy,
> 
> It looks like the "swiss cheese" ended up being glassed over/covered and the back side of the kick pod was opened up significantly, firing into carpet.
> Am I seeing this correctly?
> 
> Cheers!
> Charles



Charles 

Yeah I wanted to do vynil but I ended up getting some stretchy suede
And just wrapped them holes and all with suede 

It’s stretched tight so you can’t see the circles through it at all 
And painted it black inside and out as well 
I’ve never seen this technique but it works for my car 


Went from a car that needed gobs and gobs of EQ and a room correction unit plus a whole bunch of all pass filters and fir filters just to sound good and never got very loud because of all the eq and stuff 
To a car that has virtually no eq , no room correction, no time alignment and gets super loud and sounds great. 

So weird to know my car can sound good finally without having to find a dsp fix for everything 

I’ve heard of ppl drilling a vent in a kickpod but a single vent just didn’t do it for me , I wanted all the ringing gone. I wouldn’t settle for anything else

Thanks man yeah it turned out really amazing sq for sure


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Charles
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I wanted to do vynil but I ended up getting some stretchy suede
> 
> And just wrapped them holes and all with suede
> 
> 
> 
> It’s stretched tight so you can’t see the circles through it at all
> 
> And painted it black inside and out as well
> 
> I’ve never seen this technique but it works for my car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Went from a car that needed gobs and gobs of EQ and a room correction unit plus a whole bunch of all pass filters and fir filters just to sound good and never got very loud because of all the eq and stuff
> 
> To a car that has virtually no eq , no room correction, no time alignment and gets super loud and sounds great.
> 
> 
> 
> So weird to know my car can sound good finally without having to find a dsp fix for everything
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve heard of ppl drilling a vent in a kickpod but a single vent just didn’t do it for me , I wanted all the ringing gone. I wouldn’t settle for anything else
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks man yeah it turned out really amazing sq for sure




Man this awesome work! I'm glad to know
Your just a short drive north I'd love to be able to hear this. I got to hear Arron's samari the other day and it was sweet! He mentioned he got some new driver to try from you 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Man this awesome work! I'm glad to know
> Your just a short drive north I'd love to be able to hear this. I got to hear Arron's samari the other day and it was sweet! He mentioned he got some new driver to try from you
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


thanks man, it’s finally becoming something. Still miles away from what I want it to be. I think I’m finally learning the last steps to a really awesome sounding car, should come up and Well do demos I want to check out your car also 

Yeah Aaron’s samurai is awesome, I love that guy to death he’s such a good friend and kick ass installer 

Yeah I lent him a really nice compression driver for his horns
I want to hear them. Last tome I tuned his car was in 2015 and now he is tuning and building some awesome cars, That dood is building quite the name for himself in Colorado.


----------



## oabeieo

here's some measurements mounted in kicks
I just had to show these off...

This is a testament to being patient and spending the time to pre aim and measure kicks and build the kicks around what measured well and what sounded good with no compromises.. I can say the full 10 hours of testing before any glass was laid and the other 8 hours of correcting the kicks by drilling them until they measured the same and had no enclosure related issues. Time well spent and worth it, Ill never do pods or panels again without going though the painful efforts.

I used to build a panel so it looks as good as possible and just use dsp on any issues after the fact. This approach is much better. I can actually thank once again Erin H for the inspiration on doing that after reading his thread.

Its crazy how similar they are under 300Hz. but my car is like barley 9 inches wide (jk but its small) I think that's why they are so similar. Total of 4" PLD


----------



## oabeieo

remounted the ddrc and got the box lookin good

Using ddrc on just sub for now 
It corrects the 6th order and sounds oh so nice


----------



## Jscoyne2

So with all this dirac experimenting you've done. What would your review of it be? Great for ppl not trying for crazy good systems but still great. Sometime akin to a new age ms8? Quick tune, easy to use but lack of dynamics that both you and Elgrosso heard. Something to use on say >500hz

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## CrimsonCountry

oabeieo said:


> Yes definitely, I’ve used bondo , tape, whatever works and old holes gone
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I’ve had hard luck getting the 2118 to go below 200hz at full power IB, the mb8 would work better but with the pr170mo I would even loook at maybe a even lower fs driver maybe one in the 50s to get down to 80 at full power with no enclosure.
> 
> 
> 
> The 2118 is one of the best midrange I’ve ever heard , man that thing just sings upwards 1.6k and has a sibilance that just hits the spot. As far as midbass duty it’s lacking (pretty badly) I have a set in my garage in .3 sealed and they play to 50 and sound really good, so if you can get .3 or so sealed it might work , but there’s better midbass Out there for 70-500hz
> 
> 
> 
> The mbx b&c looks really good , the mb8 is good as well , I would shoot for mid Q fs around 50 with sensitivity around 90db 1/w1m and something with not such a flimsy cone like the 2118


Thanks for the detailed response as usual Andy. I totally agree with the statement on 2118H lacking as pure midbass or even alone in a 2-way. It just can't hang down lower, even below 150-200hz as you said. I know they drop off quick below 130-140hz in my truck installed in typical IB, lower and forward in the doors. Both mine measure right at 4.9 ohms so they're getting nearly the full 150 (theoretical) watts.

I bought the PR170MO on a complete whim with no real plans for them. One of those "why not" buys. Having bought them, the only reason i an see me using them is for their (slightly) smaller size if I ever did do a kick install.

I still need to listen to you and just buy the MB8s but those darn 2206/2217s keep calling my name. Haha


----------



## oabeieo

CrimsonCountry said:


> Thanks for the detailed response as usual Andy. I totally agree with the statement on 2118H lacking as pure midbass or even alone in a 2-way. It just can't hang down lower, even below 150-200hz as you said. I know they drop off quick below 130-140hz in my truck installed in typical IB, lower and forward in the doors. Both mine measure right at 4.9 ohms so they're getting nearly the full 150 (theoretical) watts.
> 
> I bought the PR170MO on a complete whim with no real plans for them. One of those "why not" buys. Having bought them, the only reason i an see me using them is for their (slightly) smaller size if I ever did do a kick install.
> 
> I still need to listen to you and just buy the MB8s but those darn 2206/2217s keep calling my name. Haha



I used to run the pr170 with the b&c10 and mini horns 
It was deadly combo. 

I crossed the pr170mo at 500 12db as recommended and it was nice 

The pr170 does its best at500 crossing below made it sound weird and the GD was enormous for some reason. Could have been the pods I was using at the time (probably was)


----------



## CrimsonCountry

oabeieo said:


> I used to run the pr170 with the b&c10 and mini horns
> 
> It was deadly combo.
> 
> 
> 
> I crossed the pr170mo at 500 12db as recommended and it was nice
> 
> 
> 
> The pr170 does its best at500 crossing below made it sound weird and the GD was enormous for some reason. Could have been the pods I was using at the time (probably was)


"Deadly" speaker combos are always fun! Should I ever run the Audax, I'll be sure to keep it ~500hz and up.


----------



## oabeieo

Oh yeah. 

A 2118 with pr170 and minis , it was fun 

The pr170 was a fun driver but I got board with it fairly quickly 

I think it was that it couldn’t play low enough for me. I like to cross the midbass around 200-250 in a 4way with a standard crossover, I don’t like a crossover right in the delicate midrange however it worked for some reason pretty good


----------



## oabeieo

Put the 2408H back on 

I did something weird this time 

I put the full-size horn on driver side and mini on passenger side. 

I wanted the throw from mini but not on driver side , they EQ the same pretty much 
So crossed at 1.521khz with a 28db slope worked very nice. 

The 2408H dosent get Super dooper loud but still gets plenty loud for me. It matches with the 2118H very nicely (I don’t know why I love this driver so much) it has such exceptional SQ in the 1.6k to 10k not a spec of breakup , it goes to 20k but it rolls off a tad which sounds good actually, I kinda don’t like flat to 20k I think a tiny bump at 10.5k and than a rolloff at 12k sounds best to my ears.

I also gained down the 2118h quite a bit with the higher crossover I wanted the speaker to naturally meet the 2408h in its rolloff with no eq than some eq in the 250 range. 
It’s crazy how efficient the 2118h is it is about the same as the 2408h after eq on horn. 

The kicks got a tiny bit of eq now. The right side more than left , the left was already flat naturally for the most part. 

Pulled phase out of the system to make phase flat manually , using opendrc mode with sharc (thanks grosso!) got a excellent sound now. 

With the mismatched horns passenger imaging is still good it’s vocal in highs is a tiny bit right of center maybe 3” of center of dash where the driver side is nailed down firmly planted at all frequencies. 

I have discovered after eq on the 2118h there is a 1 dB difference in volume overall from side to side from 200-500 and 2db difference from 500-1.2k and at 1.24k the right side is much louder by 4db but I’ve always had a issue at 1.24k in this car with the right being louder


----------



## oabeieo

Put Dirac back on took off the opendrc and experiment on running Dirac only on the 8s 

My manual tune fir on 2408h is plenty badass 
And my manual tune on sub is plenty badass 


I wanted to see what Dirac does on just a midrange with no driver interaction and so it just fixes that one pair , and it’s fukn badass , multichannel Dirac is so the way to go 

I’m so tempted to do the new cdspdl so so tempting, however I think I’ll instead do 
Ddrc24 upgrades to my HD’s on horns and leave my own fir on midbass and sub


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Rented a 2019 Kia Soul for the weekend in Illinois with my sons 

For the 1st time in my life a factory stereo that has perfect soundstage 
Imaging is unbelievably good. Of course low power and ****ty speakers besides that, the dsp work was done very well. It images just as good as my car. Both seats have a solid center vocal that is very nicely centered on the dash in the middle of the car. Stage height is good (not excellent but very good) stage on deep male vocals sounds to come from behind the radio but any other vocals is on top of dash about eye level 

It’s got to use Dirac or the like , or finally a engineer that knows his ass from his elbo . Even the top of the line audio b&o is complete dogshit imaging 

Although there is a audi that is good in driver focus mode and balanced to the right two ticks , but this Kia is quite excellent. My gosh are factory installed finally catching on 

Wow ....I’m impressed big time


----------



## oabeieo

Found this old video when i was mid install on on dash horns 

About 2yrs ago ish 

I loved the way them pillars looked too bad they were horrable cancellation boxes 
They couldn’t even make it 1/2 of an oactave without some gay ass deeep notch or massive peak , but dam they looked cool 

I can’t believe how good I got that to sound (that setup made me learn a lot just trying to make it sound good, he’ll I got it to image perfect in two seats , just never got super super loud (120db+) with that much cuts in eq. It was eq stacked on eq , but it did sound decent as hell 





> oabs tuning night vol81 click me


----------



## oabeieo

oabeieo said:


> Rented a 2019 Kia Soul for the weekend in Illinois with my sons
> 
> For the 1st time in my life a factory stereo that has perfect soundstage
> Imaging is unbelievably good. Of course low power and ****ty speakers besides that, the dsp work was done very well. It images just as good as my car. Both seats have a solid center vocal that is very nicely centered on the dash in the middle of the car. Stage height is good (not excellent but very good) stage on deep male vocals sounds to come from behind the radio but any other vocals is on top of dash about eye level
> 
> It’s got to use Dirac or the like , or finally a engineer that knows his ass from his elbo . Even the top of the line audio b&o is complete dogshit imaging
> 
> Although there is a audi that is good in driver focus mode and balanced to the right two ticks , but this Kia is quite excellent. My gosh are factory installed finally catching on
> 
> Wow ....I’m impressed big time



Your wrong (I know I was wrong) it only images excellent from the driver seat 
But at least they did just time alignment setup for driver and locked it so no dumbfuck can set it to “all” and think it sounds better . So it’s still sorta cool just not as cool as you


----------



## oabeieo

Took the time to do my doors and get them ultra dialed in 

Running the 6ND430 from 71hz to 210hz using 48db slopes all linear phase 
Running a little volume compression on the left door 3.6:1 at -36dbfs 
Help keep image center at high volume wants to pull left as it wants to lobe/off axis a little stronger 

Realized a new thing. 48db slopes are pretty bad ass. The driver interaction is minimized and get a much cleaner sound. I think the reason not many likes them is the phase has to be perfect for them to work right, that is wherever the phase is on the highpass the lowpass must meet and follow each other down at the same rate, linear phase is definitely easier to implement but eaither way is still hard to do but worth it. I’ve only been able to get 48db slopes to work really well below 250hz , above that seems you can hear the diffrent drivers stop and start too easily as the drivers are different (like a tweeter to midrange) 

I really like how the 48db slopes performs on midbass duty and sub. Getting the sub to integrate is easier with steep slopes and can get its time issues locked easily by ear and than some measurements to confirm (within .15ms) 

Measuring at equal distance from midbass to midrange was important to get it right , I measured at a spot where both speakers were 1.128’ (or as close to as possible) about 13.5” from center of dustcap to center of dustcap and about as equally off axis in both azimuths. 

Small order filters definitely sound better easier as they blurr together at the sum and you are always in at least one area of alignment in the outband , and as long as the inband is flat to each other should sum well, however if the time is spend to do a high order it could prove worth it 

One thing I like about it is the fast attenuation at 70hz allowing me to really put the power on that 6.5 so it doesn't **** the bed from excursions and at 210hz where the 8 picks up so the two speakers don’t fight each other causing colorations or nulls in some positions in car. 

This is my 1st great sounding high order filter, I’ve had some good tondecent ones in past nothing great , this one turned out great


----------



## optimaprime

oabeieo said:


> Dug up some archives for my kick build


what book is this? please !!!!


----------



## oabeieo

optimaprime said:


> what book is this? please !!!!


It’s auto sound 2000 tech briefs 

I got my copy from Kenwood excelon training back in 96 when I attended and it was rebadged by Richard Clark to be called Kenwood excelon training guide


Now you MIGHT be able to obtain a copy , call Richard Clark over at USD speakerworks , he still answers calls, he was one of the authors of this book along with David Navone and a few others. 

It’s basically a compilation of all the tech briefs ever made from autosound200 the magazine back in the day. 

It’s very good and still hold true to this day and should be read. 

I especially love how they call time alignment “time misalignment “ . Because it is more than an alignment. 

Yeah pm me your details and I’ll ask him if you want , I had someone else ask for a copy but never got back to me. I can call for you I know them over there from some time ago and can ask if they have copies...


----------



## Chris12

oabeieo said:


> It’s auto sound 2000 tech briefs
> 
> I got my copy from Kenwood excelon training back in 96 when I attended and it was rebadged by Richard Clark to be called Kenwood excelon training guide
> 
> 
> Now you MIGHT be able to obtain a copy , call Richard Clark over at USD speakerworks , he still answers calls, he was one of the authors of this book along with David Navone and a few others.
> 
> It’s basically a compilation of all the tech briefs ever made from autosound200 the magazine back in the day.
> 
> It’s very good and still hold true to this day and should be read.
> 
> I especially love how they call time alignment “time misalignment “ . Because it is more than an alignment.
> 
> Yeah pm me your details and I’ll ask him if you want , I had someone else ask for a copy but never got back to me. I can call for you I know them over there from some time ago and can ask if they have copies...


I wonder if this is the same thing:

David Navone'sÂ  .:: AutoSound Tech Briefs - The Book ::.Â  Car Audio Engineering


----------



## oabeieo

Chris12 said:


> I wonder if this is the same thing:
> 
> David Navone'sÂ* .:: AutoSound Tech Briefs - The Book ::.Â* Car Audio Engineering


Exact same ! 

I also had that one but lent it out and never got back 

It’s exactly the same except that has a few more pages added

I’ve read the entire book like at least 10x cover to cover before the internet had a lot of car audio stuff and twoX since . It’s such a good book, the way it explains things are superior. Kinda sucks when you quote directly from that book and get flamed on forums (hint hint) and you just have to shake your head and laugh. The knowledge is very good and true and is easy to understand for dummies like me 



On another note , I turned one of my HDs into a DDRC24 so I have 4 seperate Dirac so I can seperate the eq on horns and the rest , GOODNESS GRACIOUS it’s bad ass to the extreme. Having a Dirac just for the midbass and one just for the horns is ****ing the cats meow all the way. 

Wow. It’s very very very good. The crossover between the horns and mids is unbelievably good and so articulate now. 


I ran the Dirac on horns with crossover lowered to 300hz than drew my crossover in the target to “linearize” it being I can draw the target to -40db 

It’s really sick. It’s better than a ddrc88 or a cdspdl in the sense I have 5 sharcs instead of 1 . Lots and lots of correction abilities


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> So with all this dirac experimenting you've done. What would your review of it be? Great for ppl not trying for crazy good systems but still great. Sometime akin to a new age ms8? Quick tune, easy to use but lack of dynamics that both you and Elgrosso heard. Something to use on say >500hz
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Man I missed this one ....


1. Blow the crap of ms8 (distortion box)) 
2. Great for everyone (unless you like sitting in a hot car for 100hrs every time you make even 1small change to your system tuning) 


I kinda chuckle at anyone that mocks it or thinks they don’t need it, because I know what there doing on there car and how the heads get swollen about tuning but really in reality a Dirac car will sound better than anyone can do in the amount of time it takes Dirac to get there. And to further that it’s better than I would guess 999,999 peoples cars out of a million. 


TLDR you would have to be one in a million tuners to beat the Dirac


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Man I missed this one ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Blow the crap of ms8 (distortion box))
> 
> 2. Great for everyone (unless you like sitting in a hot car for 100hrs every time you make even 1small change to your system tuning)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I kinda chuckle at anyone that mocks it or thinks they don’t need it, because I know what there doing on there car and how the heads get swollen about tuning but really in reality a Dirac car will sound better than anyone can do in the amount of time it takes Dirac to get there. And to further that it’s better than I would guess 999,999 peoples cars out of a million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TLDR you would have to be one in a million tuners to beat the Dirac


I know you keep playing with windowing. I fee like even when we were talking about the ddrc24 in Elgrossos BL, you both felt like it was better utilized under 1000hz because thats where its most powerful and it didn't murder dynamics like you both( and your wife) heard in the the upper range. 


The 8x12Dl looks neat but just knowing how the ddrc24 works with unlimited eq potential. I feel like its honestly good enough if you're not aiming for anything more than a 3 way plus sub. 


Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> I know you keep playing with windowing. I fee like even when we were talking about the ddrc24 in Elgrossos BL, you both felt like it was better utilized under 1000hz because thats where its most powerful and it didn't murder dynamics like you both( and your wife) heard in the the upper range.
> 
> 
> The 8x12Dl looks neat but just knowing how the ddrc24 works with unlimited eq potential. I feel like its honestly good enough if you're not aiming for anything more than a 3 way plus sub.
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



So it dosent murder dynamics at the least. 
A system that has a peak will sound dynamic in the sense that every time that note is played it gets really loud. I find that annoying as hell because it’s almost always on just one side when a speaker “sounds” peaky. 
Nothing more annoying than that one problem frequency that moves the stage around . But if that’s all you want. J.k.

So I ran the ddrc24 on just horns and did a loop back and looked at the IR and inverted it. The ddrc utilized a 17.6ms time window on 1.6k to 20k , so it had some heavy fir action at work and it did quite a bit to the horns phase response. 

Under 1000 is where it’s the most noticeable I would agree but also under 1000 were most sensitive to phase and amplitude so it seems to do the most, but in actuality it does much more to everything. 

As far as dynamics it’s all still there....give me a dynamic recording...I only know of a few and there all Sheffield Labs or recorded before Y2K.

I must say it’s a bit of a pain in the ass doing it this way, got all kinds of issues to deal with as far as getting delays between devices right but luckily in Dirac I can expand the IR and just subtract the peaks from before and after and get a offset ....so it works


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> So it dosent murder dynamics at the least.
> 
> A system that has a peak will sound dynamic in the sense that every time that note is played it gets really loud. I find that annoying as hell because it’s almost always on just one side when a speaker “sounds” peaky.
> 
> Nothing more annoying than that one problem frequency that moves the stage around . But if that’s all you want. J.k.
> 
> 
> 
> So I ran the ddrc24 on just horns and did a loop back and looked at the IR and inverted it. The ddrc utilized a 17.6ms time window on 1.6k to 20k , so it had some heavy fir action at work and it did quite a bit to the horns phase response.
> 
> 
> 
> Under 1000 is where it’s the most noticeable I would agree but also under 1000 were most sensitive to phase and amplitude so it seems to do the most, but in actuality it does much more to everything.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as dynamics it’s all still there....give me a dynamic recording...I only know of a few and there all Sheffield Labs or recorded before Y2K.
> 
> 
> 
> I must say it’s a bit of a pain in the ass doing it this way, got all kinds of issues to deal with as far as getting delays between devices right but luckily in Dirac I can expand the IR and just subtract the peaks from before and after and get a offset ....so it works


Okay so explain that last sentence in 3rd grader. 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Okay so explain that last sentence in 3rd grader.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


So my signal chain is 

Deck ->toslink -> Ddrc22d-> toslink splitter > 3 2x4hds 


So the ddrc22d feeds it’s convolution delay to everything, 
The sub has its own 2x4hd and using as a 2x2 and as fir crossover that has 22.6ms delay 

The midbass and midrange share one with fir crossovers both a delay of 5.33md and horns on a ddrc24 

So when I run Dirac for mids and curtain off sub frequencies and measure with sub off , and curtain off horn frequencies so it dosent affect the signal going out of ddrc22d to horns Dirac box however it’s delay is embedded , than the ddrc24 has its own Dirac , 


So between all these devices all with seperate fir delays but they all pass through the ddrc22d The only IR offset is between Dirac modules 

So I can go into the IR tab and look at before and after IR and count the ms between peaks and get my offset to plug into all the other HDs , but they have a fir delay of there own I have to account for between the ddrc24 and the other HDs ( so it’s confusing to manage , but I got it, I’m within .02ms accuracy


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> So my signal chain is
> 
> 
> 
> Deck ->toslink -> Ddrc22d-> toslink splitter > 3 2x4hds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the ddrc22d feeds it’s convolution delay to everything,
> 
> The sub has its own 2x4hd and using as a 2x2 and as fir crossover that has 22.6ms delay
> 
> 
> 
> The midbass and midrange share one with fir crossovers both a delay of 5.33md and horns on a ddrc24
> 
> 
> 
> So when I run Dirac for mids and curtain off sub frequencies and measure with sub off , and curtain off horn frequencies so it dosent affect the signal going out of ddrc22d to horns Dirac box however it’s delay is embedded , than the ddrc24 has its own Dirac ,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So between all these devices all with seperate fir delays but they all pass through the ddrc22d The only IR offset is between Dirac modules
> 
> 
> 
> So I can go into the IR tab and look at before and after IR and count the ms between peaks and get my offset to plug into all the other HDs , but they have a fir delay of there own I have to account for between the ddrc24 and the other HDs ( so it’s confusing to manage , but I got it, I’m within .02ms accuracy


Does it only add that delay to everything within the window? If so. That basically forces you to use it 20-20khz or you'll be screwed in a normal person's set up.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Does it only add that delay to everything within the window? If so. That basically forces you to use it 20-20khz or you'll be screwed in a normal person's set up.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


Nope epper: 

Fir delay is embedded on the entire output.


----------



## oabeieo

I just did some switching things up 

I put the 8s on the 4ch with horns and used the other output on ddrc24 
That way I don’t have to do the math on one unit. Works great the tune for 8s passes right through the ddrc24 and feeds the 8s delay problem solved 

With Dirac on just horns I’m able to cross the 2408h at 1.6 -LR2 that’s stinking low for that driver , I am able to open the curtain just enough to drag my target down to -40db and attenuate the resonance peak at 750hz allowing the driver to play way lower , and it’s linear phase done right. 

It’s so crazy how well this thing works. 

I can fiddle around with measurements and gating and alignment of measurements and on and on and on and on and than finally get to rephase and do my thing , where Dirac does just as good of a job in about 10sec ........... 

Sometimes I need to add a touch more delay to a speaker but that’s it. Not really anything worth writing home about


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I just did some switching things up
> 
> 
> 
> I put the 8s on the 4ch with horns and used the other output on ddrc24
> 
> That way I don’t have to do the math on one unit. Works great the tune for 8s passes right through the ddrc24 and feeds the 8s delay problem solved
> 
> 
> 
> With Dirac on just horns I’m able to cross the 2408h at 1.6 -LR2 that’s stinking low for that driver , I am able to open the curtain just enough to drag my target down to -40db and attenuate the resonance peak at 750hz allowing the driver to play way lower , and it’s linear phase done right.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s so crazy how well this thing works.
> 
> 
> 
> I can fiddle around with measurements and gating and alignment of measurements and on and on and on and on and than finally get to rephase and do my thing , where Dirac does just as good of a job in about 10sec ...........
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes I need to add a touch more delay to a speaker but that’s it. Not really anything worth writing home about


When does the ddrc24 get dirac 2.0? Whens beta end

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> When does the ddrc24 get dirac 2.0? Whens beta end
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Beta ended last week. 
I’m back on the old briefly, I still can use it and measure just can’t import filters into machine permanently, they turned that part off until release so I can only listen when plugged in to UI 

So I just switched back to the old for now (but I still play with the new) 

I would imagine very soon. It worked perfectly for me.


----------



## fullergoku

Has anyone tried the minidsp 8x12 DL? if so whats your opinions


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## oabeieo

fullergoku said:


> Has anyone tried the minidsp 8x12 DL? if so whats your opinions


Mine is on the way. 

Just ordered one. 

I’m going to do some really cool things. 


How you been man.


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## oabeieo

So the cdspdl is quite nice 

No more fiddling with multiple usb cords , getting the same level of dsp with much less effort , so nice having 12channels on one screen . 

I was initially worried a single sharc wouldn’t be enough but it works quite well. 

I think I’m going to use my ddrc on opendrc mode and go digital coax out and have an extra 12000 taps for sub, won’t that be nice huh, I can make a 40hx crossover no problem now and linearize all the group delay at 48k 

Going from a 96k system to a 48k system I hear no sonic difference at all. 

I’m convinced hi-res has always been hires at 44.1 and the recordings these days just suck


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## oabeieo

So one of my mentors (very well known car audio person) had informed me that I’m a dick 

So. I would like to publicly apologize for sounding like a prick in some of the threads 

I get excited and like to bust balls and joke around but my humor is dry at times and comes across very negatively. It’s something I’ve been working on for years and have a hard time with it. I’m sorry if I offended anyone, or made fun of equipment needlessly. (Except the aerospace really is boring dsp :laugh but all else , I’m sorry. I’ve tryed to be a help to others and tryed to be a part of this community. I promise from here on out I’ll chill on my humor and poking fun at things. It’s uncalled for nonsense, and I’m a no nonsense person. 

Please take this to heart , I wil change starting right now!


----------



## GreatLaBroski

I don't know, I haven't taken you to come off as a dick in your threads. There are a handful of genuine a-holes on this forum but you're not one of them IMO.


----------



## Jscoyne2

^

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Blu

GreatLaBroski said:


> I don't know, I haven't taken you to come off as a dick in your threads. There are a handful of genuine a-holes on this forum but you're not one of them IMO.


This.

Unfortunately, the nuances of dry humour can sometimes get lost in plain text.


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## oabeieo

Thanks guys I do appreciate that. 

Yeah it’s a humbling moment for me but I know I do get carried away , maybe I am used to shop talk with other installers and automatically assume most ppl get me. It’s been something I’ve honestly trying pretty hard to be more professional at all times. 

I do a lot of big installs and pretty key person at my company and I really do not want to scare anyone away or make anyone feel like I’m a loose cannon. The person that brought this to my attention I highly respect, and actually quoting me on a few posts going about two years back. A little eye opening for me , no big deal, but I take this **** seriously so I do want to be more pleasant and not make anyone feel like I’m walking on there work or gear or anything. I know I can be a butthead sometimes. 

Lol, I called the apl a pos and made few ppl mad , and I honestly didn’t even mean that at all. I really was joking around.


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## oabeieo

Pat! 

Lol (the glory hole is been revealed)


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## oabeieo

Just traded my U15 bandpass 
For a U18

I’m going back to sealed 

It’s lowQ should be able get away with 3 cubes sealed 

I’ll plot it try and qtc around .5.6 and I’ll be happy


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## oabeieo

Took out everything today

Did the deal on the sub 
The 15 is officially gone I now have a 18” sundown 
This one I’m doing a periodic membrane, highly damped 

I did a whole bunch of those in the late 90s I got decent at building one.
I like AP only because of the size and the response can be good. And no ringing

I’m probably going to do a AP box like I did in a corvette a long time ago where it’s membrane faces the floor sorta like a downfiring membrane but let it be a little more restrictive.

I went back to the 2x4hds and made my good ole favorite fir that performance is exceptional with Dirac and using 2ch of my ddrc22d 


This is my favorite setup and I’m going to copycat someone and do a surface pro birdied in the dash with a tascam us-366 going optical in and out and do some long impulses 


With the HD’s I can get the phase in midrange to extend farther than with Dirac alone but with jriver I could load the exact impulse I want to get the soundstage way up high and way way way far back. 

This is what some ppl don’t know. Sound is just amplitude and phase 

If you want sound like it’s 20’ in front of you , you have to create the impulse to do that. 
It takes a long time of tuning....I’m not afraid of that. And it takes special speakers strategically placed as reinforcement speakers to act as opsodis and manipulative dsp work to get the car , the reflections, and all the diffraction and refractions to make the impulse you want. 

With the 2x4hds and Dirac I can get the sound far far far back.
And here’s the thing.
Anyone can get there stage car back with delays and trickery but a lot of the time the stage is filled with wierd phase issues especially in the midrange that color the sound.

To get the stage placed far far far back and get all the sound within the stage to sound natural is a diffrent critter, it takes some long impulses to be able to pull that off. 

It’s kinda like the old sound field processors back a long time ago with reverb ad such but none of that “effects” or reverb , it’s creatimg a sound field using an impulse and not getting away from sound quality aspect. It’s not completely possible at all the frequencies but the midrange and treble is possible, than the bass just needs to be de-tuned slightly by a oscillating frequency between 2hz and about 18hz. That should give the bass the super super large sound without detracting from sq and making it sound reverby.

To oscillate that I would need a impulse that is extremely long, a delay of up to 500ms maybe even a full second? That would give me a sound field of 1128feet how we many feet. 

If I detune 40hz with just a two cycle or three cycle I should be able to stay under a second of delay. 

I remember back in the 90s I used eax environmental audio sound card that would do this , it had the emu10k1.sys chip that has basically 2 seconds time window. I did some cool stuff with it, doing it in fir should work the same, just need to define the impulse. 

If you ever been in a indoor concert you’ve heard the bass and felt the bass move around in the room, you could feel the bass wave bounce off walls and come back in the subsonic realm. That’s what I want to do. Get the bass to move the air in the car. In a car, the walls are so close vs the size of the wave it would be easy to recreate such an effect without harming the time scale of the original bass. 

Ton reverberate a sound in fir you just have to purposely smear the original sound but do it in a controlled and targeted way to extend the frequencies decay by windowing. A extremely large ifft should do the job. I’m still learning about ifft but it looks promising 

I’ve done some in the midrange and it works great, small amounts , 10ms windows I can get the midrange to sound just outside the windshield, not changing sq at all. N echo no reverb no chorusing no flanging, just clean sound that is put together just farther than it is away. 

I don’t know the limits or boundaries yet, I need jriver to really experiment, but on my laptop I can sim some long impulses that sound like I’m in a cave if I wanted so I don’t think I’m going for that, just want the stage pushed back by two feet more. 

Definitely going to have to add side speakers to get it right. Those will be key to making it work.

I’m getting the stuff this week and next week I start building


----------



## Jscoyne2

Oab. I think you should compete. Not for trophies, or to win or anything like that. But because i wanna see that paper with a line across the front of your hood because thats where the judges hear your stage. They can complain about tonality or too much bass or whatever, but I'd like to see what someone who is trained to listen for flaws and knows when something sounds great has to say. 



Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Oab. I think you should compete. Not for trophies, or to win or anything like that. But because i wanna see that paper with a line across the front of your hood because thats where the judges hear your stage. They can complain about tonality or too much bass or whatever, but I'd like to see what someone who is trained to listen for flaws and knows when something sounds great has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk




I better do it before I add 100 piezo sirens as a front stage than (just joking) 


Yeah maybe I should, 

It took me a long time to figure out how phase can really change a way a car can sound.and level and frequency. 

My front stage right now is to die for. 

Fir crossovers over Dirac is much better. And how I’m using my Dirac is so different 

I basically muted all channels except my mods , ran the ddrc22d Dirac and got the kids to image super wide and solid center , i curtain off the bass and highs 
But the sound passes through 

Than I un muted everything else and use my rta and set my response 
And used manual fir to correction to the mids 


I took my sub out , and hooked my bass amp to my midbass and crossed at 125 
Fir and the 6nd430 play to 70 

It sounds so good , the 10nw64 plays to 16hz I have to eq down 55 a tiny bit because of resonance but it’s sick.


I’m so happy I went back to my HD’s and ddrc , it’s alot lot lot better.

I unconverted my ddrc24 back to an hd so if you someone that has an hd and wants to trade for the ddrc24 I’ll trade (it’s like a free upgrade)


----------



## oabeieo

No joke , on certain songs when they have a really wide effect the sound is way outside my a pillars. And the vocal is far forward at the wiper blades 


I don’t like forward shouty mids or when trying to align using measurements fails and the image is on the floor or inside the dash or just diffused because of all kinds of issues.

Sure it’s a more faithful representation of what was recorded , but there is ways to move some of that back and maintain the integrity of the recordings effects and proper phase fingerprint if you will, 

As soon as I start to see a bunch of measurements and someone trying to say “this is how a good measurement looks” not saying anything about the mic location or the windowing method as if that measurement is proof of a good sounding system.

I could pic any mic position take a measurement and go into jriver and convolve it so that it looks so so so sexy and perfect on a single measurement and it would sound like ass in real life. 

It takes a lot of measurements and logic and being honest with yourself to listen to what sounds good. And sounds correct.


I donthe 7 drums and relative polarity Track on every tune, it’s a tool , I don’t drive around and listen to it tho for a good time tho. And sometimes I have to purposely make the phase a disaster of a response and have mad wraps and delay just to get relative polarity track to work right. 

That’s what I’m talking about. Don’t be aftaid to make it better by screwing it up. 
Or move your speaker to do the job, but that’s a whole different approach, either way get the tracks to work the way they should at a height, width and depth that only you can desire. If something is ringing and prevents it stop the dam ringing.


----------



## oabeieo

I got a video a new one 

Here it is 



https://youtu.be/_FRVEZ6fiA4

“
With enough taps (i.e. with the right length) a FIR filter can have an almost arbitrary magnitude and phase. With this flexibility, we can do things like alter the phase of a cabinet, correct for some horn internal reflection effects, and separately alter the mag/phase characteristic of each driver to improve crossover matching. This flexibility does come at the cost of delay”

Quote from sound forums 


So I agree with that, and that’s what I did on my horns tonight 

Here’s a pic for fun 






I smoother the phase and got mostly rid of two nasty resonances inside the horn body 
It works so excellent at high frequencies it’s not even funny how good fir performance is.
120 taps can do a full blown frequency and time correction all in fir. 



I’m my video I talk about using rephase to make things sound better. Everyone’s cars have some frequencies that just don’t sound good. It’s either horn loading and getting extremely low air resistance at that one frequency or it’s high impedance where it’s more restrictive air flow, more restrictive means the diaphragm is pushing against something and literally speeding up the sound (by small small amounts) as the air pressure normalizes it depends how it’s modulated by how far it has propagated through its path. It’s propagation vs modulation. 

When the sound is sped up you’ll measure a peak than usually followed by a wrap in the phase of its slowed down you’ll measure phase wrapping. (The sawtooth) just like it was a crossover, a high or low pass but in band it will resemble that. 

You can clearly hear it sounding either diffused , too loud , or both and a element of harshness that is frequency dependent and you know what they are. 

You try eq down the harshness and the tonal balance goes to shut and the stage sounds empty in that channel at that frequency.

Doing this rephase trick work excellent on the big big issues. 

Measurements are a guide to tell you where it’s having the issue but your ears will tell you more.

Getting this right makes the stage wide and have good tone with better intelligibility at those frequencies. You can’t go and rephase every little measured spike or wrap, a wrap is a delay in flight, the wrap is saying something, if a wrap happens inband , it needs to be investigated, if it’s outband it’s either roll off or a crossover. 

If the response is good, but dosent sound good, this trick works good on some of the issues. It won’t work on everything, some things I described could be clipping, or over windowing harshness or ripple.


----------



## oabeieo

Back in my corner doing unusual but fun things 

Made my system completely linear phase 
And I took all the measurements with new improvement on the how to s on measurements and deciphering them to make a good flat phased system 

Than ran Dirac live 

The results are staggeringly good. 

Dirac live works very good this way 
It’s finally behaving like it does on a set of bookshelves 
And has such amazing depth and transparency 

I really liking the system now.

I’m going to try the C next and use all 12db slopes and see what it does with that


----------



## oabeieo

Went off on a tangent


Now I’m learning how to do gunness filtering 


Basically injecting a copied signal to cancel cabinet reflections 

This will take me probably 6mo to prefect. It is complicated as hell


----------



## oabeieo

Just ordered a miniSHARC add on to run two SHARCs in my ddrc22d 

That’s will be 12244 taps per channel at 96k 
Can someone say dope 


Waveflex ! 

I’m also getting one for my opendrc project to do 24448taps per channel at 48k


I’ll have a total of 40,788 taps on line


----------



## oabeieo

So I added a pair of 2” 
Speakers to my kicks , made them a sealed back , added 47ohm 25w resistors and hooked them up out of phase with the 8s 

Basically canceling the reflections and horn loading going on inside the kick pod 

Even tho it’s dam near dipole now it still has some artifacts of Rhône loading 

Lwhere the walls of the pod are pushing back on the speaker cone with the air pressure and resonances 

Haha this grilling works great! 

It’s a tiny bit quieter , but it should be. The ringing is gone so of course it’s quieter 


This works super good !
Brought back a lot of depth to the lows in the mids 

Pic below can see the speaker in there 

I’ll post it in 20sec hang tight hit refresh if don’t see it in 30sec


----------



## oabeieo

So got some dsp on the little speaker in the pod 
Got its own little amp and dsp 


Man this thing *barely * has to be on to work 

I have a alpine ktp445u powering it off a 2x4hd gains all the way down and -12db on the output. I touch speaker when it’s up loudly and it barley makes any movement 
But that seems to work the best 

I have a fir on it 

Measurements of the 8” through a hole in pod and with 8” out of the pod 

The difference between them is the target curve for the 2 but inverted 

It works so good my godmother this works so well I can’t believe how good this works


----------



## oabeieo

I think I’m taking my kicks out . I’m not happy with them anymore 

I’m thinking about doing 8s in the doors instead. 

The 2” trick works , and all that’s great and dandy. 
But I’m just not happy about some things. I want less speakers 
I think I want a two way plus sub 

Either that or I want to add a mid in the doors higher up 
I’m tired of it not imagining as good as I want. Maybe rebuild the panels and do an 8 a tiny bit up higher in the doors 

I’m think the 8G40! 

But first I’m going to try the 8g40 in the kicks and I’m going to just cut my floor all the way out to the outside , instead of a 3” hole to outside a 8” hole to outside......


Idk 

New car....I’m tired of how this car sounds. I can’t get it to sound like some of my old systems back in the day. 

I’ve suppressed everything that I don’t like , and it’s just not what I want


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I think I’m taking my kicks out . I’m not happy with them anymore
> 
> 
> 
> I’m thinking about doing 8s in the doors instead.
> 
> 
> 
> The 2” trick works , and all that’s great and dandy.
> 
> But I’m just not happy about some things. I want less speakers
> 
> I think I want a two way plus sub
> 
> 
> 
> Either that or I want to add a mid in the doors higher up
> 
> I’m tired of it not imagining as good as I want. Maybe rebuild the panels and do an 8 a tiny bit up higher in the doors
> 
> 
> 
> I’m think the 8G40!
> 
> 
> 
> But first I’m going to try the 8g40 in the kicks and I’m going to just cut my floor all the way out to the outside , instead of a 3” hole to outside a 8” hole to outside......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Idk
> 
> 
> 
> New car....I’m tired of how this car sounds. I can’t get it to sound like some of my old systems back in the day.
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve suppressed everything that I don’t like , and it’s just not what I want


Calmmm down. Lol 

Dont pull a me and start cutting holes just cuz...

Why dont you test if the 3" hole is actually causing an issue. Do some impedance sweeps.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

I think I want to lower my dash and do my speakers up high and far back 

Or get away from horns (like that will last long I shouldn’t even talk like this )


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> I think I want to lower my dash and do my speakers up high and far back
> 
> 
> 
> Or get away from horns (like that will last long I shouldn’t even talk like this )




Hahaha I almost spit my drink out reading that 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I think I want to lower my dash and do my speakers up high and far back
> 
> 
> 
> Or get away from horns (like that will last long I shouldn’t even talk like this )


Has anyone ever tried to put a horn in the front of the engine bay and just straight shot it through to the firewall?

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Has anyone ever tried to put a horn in the front of the engine bay and just straight shot it through to the firewall?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



I don’t know , but I need to with an 8” right under it.


----------



## Mic10is

Jscoyne2 said:


> oabeieo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I want to lower my dash and do my speakers up high and far back
> 
> 
> 
> Or get away from horns (like that will last long I shouldn’t even talk like this )
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever tried to put a horn in the front of the engine bay and just straight shot it through to the firewall?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yes it's been done a few times in the late 90s and 2000s.
The most "famous" was Jerry Zeiglers CRX.
Femi Akogate (misspelled) also rebuilt his entire dash as a horn.

There was a 90-93 Civic owner by Randall Holdman w all PG equipment that had horns in the cowel area. Very similar to Jerry's.

Overall there have been others as well...the primary reason it isn't done more often is simply bc it doesn't work well.
Hlcd are meant to be listened to off axis or..under the dash. Firing forward at you just doesn't work well and then it loads directly into the windshield.

Now something like Mark Elderidge 4-runner where the horn was built to use the windshield as extension and played primarily midrange is completely different than using an off the shelf hlcd and trying to make it work


----------



## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> Yes it's been done a few times in the late 90s and 2000s.
> The most "famous" was Jerry Zeiglers CRX.
> Femi Akogate (misspelled) also rebuilt his entire dash as a horn.
> 
> There was a 90-93 Civic owner by Randall Holdman w all PG equipment that had horns in the cowel area. Very similar to Jerry's.
> 
> Overall there have been others as well...the primary reason it isn't done more often is simply bc it doesn't work well.
> Hlcd are meant to be listened to off axis or..under the dash. Firing forward at you just doesn't work well and then it loads directly into the windshield.
> 
> Now something like Mark Elderidge 4-runner where the horn was built to use the windshield as extension and played primarily midrange is completely different than using an off the shelf hlcd and trying to make it work





I would love to see pics of these cars , I remember marks, that thing was so cool. 
I’ve heard of femi but never saw.

I think I saw pics of the Crx (if I remember right it was red minihorns) can’t remember.
He didn’t have his midbass uptop so it probably didn’t work that good. 
But the entire dash as a horn sounds right up my alley. 



I couldn’t agree more , I put ES horns up top last year , it was good, but some problems in the stage. Not as bad as some think tho, but it didn’t work right, it sounded awesome and had amazing depth only because my mids were right next to the horn, the problems were instruments placed in the stage were off. Everything was deep , no layers. needless to say I went south like I should have to begin with.(1600.00$ later for a new dash pad from Honda) 


I’m think build a horn that is designed to be played on axis.....maybe..... or a little more on axis , but that’s kinda hard with vertical dispersion becomes a huge issue. So I could just be dreaming of driving a house again 

And the bigger problem (I don’t know how....:-(


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Hahaha I almost spit my drink out reading that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lmao! Hehehe



It will never happen!


----------



## saltyone

This thread is simply amazing. I’ve learned more tonight over a couple of hours than I have in the last 2 months combined. This thread should be mandatory reading for anyone just starting out in tuning. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to share so much knowledge!


----------



## oabeieo

So I’ve been working on this BMW at work with horns and 8s and all kinds of gear 
Have 190hrs into it , and it sounded like ass, I have been stressing my ass off thinking all the North Carolina folks will be clowning on me for the poor SQ , 

It was bad horn drivers. It sounds good now. My gosh that really had me on a tailspin.

It’s always bad diaphragms that do this to me. You’d think I would have learned by now, but dam it’s hard to tell. It sounded good, but had no midrange rip to them , it sounded like scratchy 8k that would not quit , I was so frikkin worried, aaahhhh it’s finally sounding good I can stop stressing.... 

I drove 70mi to Denver to get my compneos back and so glad I did. I’ve never had an install that made me feel like my entire reputation was hinged on one car, I’ve never had a install sound bad or make me hunt this hard for what was wrong. 

From now on I’m never installing used horns again. I’m going to insist on new diaphragms on every install of used horns. 

So here’s the moral of the story , or whatever you call it , the jist of it 

Polymer, polyamide and Mylar diaphragms can stretch. You’ll hear it from no one but me, believe me I’ve searched online. You can heat up the poly or Mylar and literally stretch it and warp it from over heating them, or crack the domes. 

His had a small tiny burn mark on a coil and one had a tiny tiny crack in it next to the glue where the bobbin is. I inspected those for 30min before I saw it. 

Don’t play your horns too low. If you like to play super loud cross above 1k and thank me later. I think 800hz is too low for going super loud. Loud is ok but not super loud.


----------



## oabeieo

Been talking with Pierre from waveflex. He’s got some great ideas and definitely helping me with some ideas.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

oabeieo said:


> Been talking with Pierre from waveflex. He’s got some great ideas and definitely helping me with some ideas.


I’ve emailed back and forth with him in the past, great dude. Im curious to see what you go with.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

I've had my eye on this thread as a DAC option: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/339929-8-ak5578en-8-ak4499eq-adc-dac-boards.html

I didn't feel like the 2x MiniSHARCs would give me as many taps as I wanted so I started looking at a custom FPGA implementation which would give me about 600k-1mm taps. Then the C-DSP DL came out and I kind of let the project slide.

I may find inspiration in your project to continue down the custom DSP road.


----------



## oabeieo

GreatLaBroski said:


> I've had my eye on this thread as a DAC option: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/339929-8-ak5578en-8-ak4499eq-adc-dac-boards.html
> 
> I didn't feel like the 2x MiniSHARCs would give me as many taps as I wanted so I started looking at a custom FPGA implementation which would give me about 600k-1mm taps. Then the C-DSP DL came out and I kind of let the project slide.
> 
> I may find inspiration in your project to continue down the custom DSP road.



I was thinking dual sharcs on my 22d , they run off the same mclk (masters clock) and is I2s so the signal passes through nothing and is all done in the same machine. As far as digital noise that is far superior as you know. 

However the 4x8 plugin has very little taps , and I’m better off with my current setup.... so I stead I’m going to use the waveflex and add a opendrc 2x2 plug-in off the waveflex board and run ddrc22d >sharc 2x2> splitter> 3 2x4hds 

I can do my crossovers in the HD’s , do some of my own custom room correction in the open and let Dirac do its thing.

I’ve got Dirac to perform better and better the closer I get to true linear phase 
Plus my own custom time and phase shapes to make my stage deep and high 
Using kicks. 

I’m in a tough spot right now....thinking about rebuilding some things again

This time the midrange needs to be up higher that’s for dam sure. The horns are good where they are. The problem is the mids must be close to the horns for horns to work right.....

This is a new idea maybe up high in the doors for mids


----------



## oabeieo

Ran Dirac live on the bmw 
It’s sick. So sick. 

I’ll get my boy to do a build thread soon 

I need to send him pics


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Using the C-DSP DL? Any difference in your technique this go-around?


----------



## oabeieo

GreatLaBroski said:


> Using the C-DSP DL? Any difference in your technique this go-around?


I did horns and 8s on seperate Dirac channels and on 2ch

They sound the same , the 2ch I like a tiny mit more 


But no, did the same thing I’ve been doing, his car sounds Fantastic 

I was having really bad luck with Dirac with the blown horns 

First I thought it was dirty motors so I took them apart and cleaned them there was a little bit of stuff in there but not much ran it again and it sounded like butt hole , I thought his kicks were ****ed up I emailed Mic And asked him to help tune it when it gets back to North Carolina, I didn’t know what the **** was going on honestly so then I put my JBL driver is on his and it sounded ****ing killer and then I opened up his horn and sure enough the coils wor and asked him to help tune it when it gets back to North Carolina, I didn’t know what the **** was going on honestly so then I put my JBL drivers on his and it sounded ****ing killer and then I opened up his horn and sure enough there was damage put in my horns and then ran it again into channel and it’s awesome,. His car actually tuned out really nice I was really worried that the foot well was causing some Echo in the mid range but it was just bad horns. 

But yeah just running to channel on his right now and it sounds really good it sounds very similar to my car except for my center is a little bit stronger only because he has a center consul and I do not have one at all 

He should be able to hang with the big dogs no problem I would be very surprised if he does not place within top 20 at one of the bigger shows 

I’m kind of jealous of his kick panels they play stupid low 


Mic Wallace lives fairly close to this guy so I know he has a very good tuner nearby. if these two meet up he’ll be able to dial it even better because of altitude and honestly I don’t have a week to spend in that car because of the heat and all that stuff but Dirac does nice for him, Kind of sucks I spent all my tuning time troubleshooting but at least I got one pretty damn good tune set up for him


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Killer stuff man! Spending hours troubleshooting something that ends up being a hardware issue is always frustrating (and a bit relieving at the same time). You should get him to post a build thread.


----------



## oabeieo

GreatLaBroski said:


> Killer stuff man! Spending hours troubleshooting something that ends up being a hardware issue is always frustrating (and a bit relieving at the same time). You should get him to post a build thread.


Yeah he’s got gonna 
I need to get off my butt and send him the pics 

I’ve been super busy. I’ll send them to him tonight. 

But yeah, super frustrating and completely tested me at all fronts.
But so relieving indeed.


----------



## oabeieo

Put the b&c big horn on the DE550

Put the compneo on the veritas horns in the wife’s van and put the 550 on in the fit 

Doing a 1 octave overlap fir linear phase 56db slope on the midbass and 43db slope on horn ....it’s badass. Horn plays nice down to 1k with some sparkle into the 700s and 600s than off fast 


Spend a lot of time with the mic getting the acoustic slope to match the filters 
It works very nice....I already miss the 2408h

I think I want to modify a ES horn to adapt 2 compression drivers on it .

Like a unity horn.


----------



## oabeieo

WELL as some of you know 
I can’t ever make up my mind 


Well I sold the U series sundown and ordered a SA series for the higher Q
For IB 


I still had a sheet of Baltic birch oak ply so I was like 
Why not just make a quick sealed box to hear the 18” sub 


Threw it in a 4.53 cube box sealed 
QTC is .83 fsc 43hz 


It sounded good I’m pretty happy 


Went to rephase and added a sealed box linearization 
With its box tool. Put sealed Q.8 45hz


And holy smokes this box sounds so good now 



It’s so wierd when your sub is linear 

Your first impression is it sounds like the music is sped up 
But obviously that can’t happen , the bass is just in time and sounds awesome 

Literally non resonant. I’m not sure IB is even needed now 


The box weighs 16lbs so that’s not much 

Plus the transients from sealed kick IB in the face .....

I think sealed with rephase is the bomb


*Sundown SA-18D4 sealed LINEAR PHASE *


----------



## oabeieo




----------



## oabeieo

Now to make a cap for the box 
3 layers black vynil and grey vynil 

Do some hexagon shapes in it with my new handy dandy mobile solutions jig kit 

The only wood you’ll see when done is small windows around the sub and on front


----------



## oabeieo

Listening to it again today all smiles 

My goodness rephase really works nice on a sub
It’s such an astonishing difference


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Listening to it again today all smiles
> 
> 
> 
> My goodness rephase really works nice on a sub
> 
> It’s such an astonishing difference




From unhappy to happy that quick that's awesome! I need to come back up and get mind blown again 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> From unhappy to happy that quick that's awesome! I need to come back up and get mind blown again
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I initially just wanted some bass back 

So I used the rest of that Baltic sheet and added a vyneer 

The wife added the polyurethaning. 

It was meant to get me by till my three new amps show up
And IB 

But it actually sounds so good I’m happy as is . 

I don’t need IB at all, this beats any iB setup I’ve heard with rephase linearization added 

That made it so incredibly punchy and perfect in time with the 8s I’m keeping it 

By far the best bass I’ve ever heard ...my old 2-15s was good too but I like this more


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> I initially just wanted some bass back
> 
> 
> 
> So I used the rest of that Baltic sheet and added a vyneer
> 
> 
> 
> The wife added the polyurethaning.
> 
> 
> 
> It was meant to get me by till my three new amps show up
> 
> And IB
> 
> 
> 
> But it actually sounds so good I’m happy as is .
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t need IB at all, this beats any iB setup I’ve heard with rephase linearization added
> 
> 
> 
> That made it so incredibly punchy and perfect in time with the 8s I’m keeping it
> 
> 
> 
> By far the best bass I’ve ever heard ...my old 2-15s was good too but I like this more




That's so awesome I bet it plays so slow 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> That's so awesome I bet it plays so slow
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It has a lot of inertia and momentum but is still extremely fast transients.
It definitely goes low and that’s where the inertia comes in and is super fun
But dosent dig deep like IB does. However IB that’s all it does is dig deep and lacks transient response like sealed 

I like this more. It’s extremely good. 

And just found out the SA-18 is the same motor as the stereo integrity subs


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> It has a lot of inertia and momentum but is still extremely fast transients.
> 
> It definitely goes low and that’s where the inertia comes in and is super fun
> 
> But dosent dig deep like IB does. However IB that’s all it does is dig deep and lacks transient response like sealed
> 
> 
> 
> I like this more. It’s extremely good.
> 
> 
> 
> And just found out the SA-18 is the same motor as the stereo integrity subs




I think they are built in the same building 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> I think they are built in the same building
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah Jacob at sundown gets his motors from China. I’m pretty sure it’s the same build houses everybody else


----------



## oabeieo

Can’t wait till my new amps get here 

Will be running 3 alpine XA70F and a XA90M


----------



## oabeieo

Got the amps installed 


gimminney these amps have balls 

They sound better than the HD amps and are cheaper 

I’m super surprised not very many ppl haven’t gotten on board with X series amps 

There way better the PDX amps in noise and SQ . 


If you like JL HD amps but don’t like the price and liked the PDX amps 
Got alpine X series amps. They make great power and don’t cost too much and sound good.
They still pricey tho. Just not 900$ for a 4ch more like 599$ 

So yeah 3 XA70F amps running bridged 350wch 

These make me smell my drivers in usage, (not a hot burning voice coil small but more a warm voice coil that’s not burning smell and they definitely do it for me.


I have the gains at the I would guess is about 4v setting with 2v input because they just have so much extra power and it still gets just silly loud.


td branch locations near me


----------



## oabeieo

Just learned about impulse centering when design fir filters 

A little trick I didn’t explore or know much about, but works unusually well 


So basically when designing fir filters you can center the impulse in the time window. I always centered it at the center of the IR, (it said recommended so I always used that one)

Well, on low frequency you can move the IR ahead in time. 

I’ve been playing with it all evening and experimenting.

So it looks like with a sub or bass speaker depending on how much group delay (crossover movement sub box issues) you can center the IR in the middle of the delay, the taps get used way way *way 100x* more efficient 

This whole time I’ve been using 6144 taps on my sub, I can now do the same correction with 2048t. 

I was able on my tens to do a [email protected] HP and a LR8 at 120hz LP with 2048taps where before I had to use 6144taps 

Soooooo. The 2x4hd even with its 4096 total taps at 96k is actually plenty to do a crossover down to 50hz LR8 and 25hz LR4 

Not too shabby 

So with a single 2x4hd you could easily linearization a two way and do a box correction on top of it. 

I’m turning my opendrc back into a ddrc22d and now I can do Dirac on 2 seperate parts of system and still do my own fir on bass speakers ...


----------



## oabeieo

Put a pair of morel supremeo tweets on top of dash in center 
Band limited and turned way way way down. Built a nifty fir as morel has the impulse attached from matched pair. 

Got the high vocals to sound good 
Not sure if I like it yet


----------



## oabeieo

OPTical splitter took a dump 

Ordered a new one. 

The new one has optical and coax input so now I can use toslink into ddrc22d 
Than coax into splitter than toslink out to the dsps 


It’s been giving me static lately and finally took a **** 
I kinda wish I knew more about re clocking and taping off I2s 

It would be great to get alll if them tied to a single clock 

Maybe I need to do some reading


----------



## nadams5755

nanodigi 2x8, if nothing other than an active splitter? https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b


----------



## oabeieo

nadams5755 said:


> nanodigi 2x8, if nothing other than an active splitter? https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/nanodigi-2x8-b



If only had toslink outputs 

My 2x4hds only have toslink input I wish they had coax or bnc 
So I’m stuck with a splitter 


The one I have comin has a coax input so I can eliminate one of the toslink runs 


So I can do 

Head unit to ddrc toslink 

Out of ddrc22d/opendrc coax to splitter coax in 
Than toslink out to the 4 HD’s running in 2x2mode


----------



## oabeieo

My whole optical system in freaking out 

Uugh! 

I wish I knew of another way besides toslink this shot suckkkkkks


----------



## oabeieo

Been doing a ton of reading about dsp
Trying to teach myself the math. It’s hard. I suck in math but I’m getting it slowly 



I have to come to admittance. About something 

Fixed point in many ways is better. (Except for convolution it kinda sucks) 

Fixed point is much quieter as far as noise and the way the filters sound. (Ringing , recursions etc) it’s pretty easy to see fixed point gives better math. 


So it’s pretty easy to see why the Brax dsp now sounds so good, has acceptable sounding boost , it’s quiet , the latency on the eq filters are not all over the place like in floating point. 

I’m coming to appreciate fixed point. So much so I’m actually thinking about this Brax dsp quite a bit. I hate that it doesn’t have a floating point convolution engine as well as the four fixed point chips. 

I ran some fixed point sims and they are superior in some ways. It’s hard to say. 
I would actually have to say if someone had enough fixed point processors it would beat floating point. But it would take a lot of them. In the fir world forget it floating point just wins. Fixed point has horrible stop band attenuation. And in fir you need to stretch things out quite a bit. It would take extremely long fir in fixed point and smearing would be for sure. It would be unavoidable and the stop band lobing is just too much. It’s messy. But for infinite filters fixed seems excellent, again forget the 48db filters with fixed point, everything else seems just better. The low frequency I’m not sure of yet , I’m still on the floating point side of the fence for low bass. 

Very interesting **** , I wish I could experiment with a nice fixed point like the Brax dsp


----------



## oabeieo

Got all new toslink cables and a new 
Jtech splitter , ahhh back in business 

No jitter , cables go in and stay working , got to get ready for the day and go on a listen


----------



## oabeieo

IF not one thing it’s another 

One of the 6ND430s got a crack in it 

Probably from my blast out I went on last night :-( 

Have 350wrms going to each 6.5” playing 70-300
And it’s a low Q driver in IB (yeah not a great idea to do that) 

So have to get a new set of 6.5s now 

Anyone have a set?


----------



## oabeieo

ALso ordered the Josephson cm-550 mic (super nice ) 

Getting my tuning cart all put together 

Get my fan (thank mic!) making a little holder for it and will try it tomorrow


----------



## oabeieo

How should I celebrate my 4000th post? 

I’m
One away......

(Lol I cant think of anything better than a video in my hole)

I’m going to make a video (I can’t reply to anything because that will mess it up so I’ll do thanks for yes and no thanks for no


----------



## oabeieo

4000 posts 









image uploading site


----------



## oabeieo

old glory is back. And I got myself a hole.. a glory hole spaceship !!!


Re did all my optical wires and another new splitter , took time and completely rewired all my dsps and ran new toslink cables 

I decided to get glass cables and with “high end” ends attached. (They sounds the same but hey) I also put in glass toslink receivers on all the minis , 

Finally no jitter! It worked. Gosh dam that was so dam gay . 


Anyway I also discovered my 6nd430s amp the frikkin input switch for two or four channel inputs was on 2ch (uugh) so the bridged 4ch was playing left and right to both 6.5s (no wonder why I couldn’t get a good Dirac tune on them) 

Ran 2.0 on the sub, 6.5s and I threw a set of supremo morel tweets on dash 
In center , turned them way way down to -8db and ran the ddrc22d over all speakers with the ddrc24 muted while measurements (horns and 8s) 

Before I did that I makes a linear phase fir for 6.5s to HP them at 80 and LP at 2500 

After running the ddrc22d, I made a new fir for 6.5s that took off the 2.5kLP and instead a 15db per octave linear phase at 300 , 

Than I unmuted the ddrc24 and ran it for horns and 8 over the top of the ddrc22d, than I measured the impulse and looked at the impulse and looked how Dirac started the 8s (either -180 or 0deg ) 

Saw that it started at -180 so than reversed the polarity on 6.5s and sub 
Than I looked at impulse peak on ddrc24 and made the 6.5s and sub line up at 12.8ms. 

Than I added the 10” back seat on (kept those muted the whole time) 
Makes a fir that is 55hz to 110hz 48db linear phase, left that in normal polarity to reinforce the strong 71hz dip , than went to 6.5s and sun and turned down 71hz respective to how many dB the 10s added 


It’s a spaceship no doubt.

No turning down left side at all , strong center , it’s fully spaceship ?


----------



## oabeieo

Both my 6nd430s have tears in the surround. 

They gone. 

I’m doing Stevens mb midbass for sure. The mb Stevens killit in the midbass dept , going to give those a try , put 350w on each driver and see what happens 

I’ll do two I’m back doors and two in front doors 



I think at some point I’ll get another set of 6nd430s and do them in small sealed 
They are compliant and low low q so they should work

I have used the 6ND with gobs of power going on 3yrs now , so if I don’t blow up the mb6s in the first week I’ll just keep them


----------



## Jscoyne2

Do you have a gallery of the build pics from this log? Most are dead.


----------



## oabeieo

The number 1 hated person on this forum is me. That’s okay tho , I’m hated by everyone in life all because my stupid personality that I can’t help.

My stomach is bleeding and I don’t know why, I should probably go to the doctor and find out what it is. 

Every morning I wake up and my belly button is filled with blood for like over a month now it’s been happening. I don’t have time to go to the doctor because I’m too busy installing and meeting deadlines and never have time for myself. 

Anyway ......... I think I’m dying or getting sick


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Do you have a gallery of the build pics from this log? Most are dead.



Oh yeah I’ll see if I can find some  


Sorry I let the thread diy out ..... haven’t been motivated. 

Re did my kicks and put in the g40s (wow)


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> The number 1 hated person on this forum is me. That’s okay tho , I’m hated by everyone in life all because my stupid personality that I can’t help.
> 
> My stomach is bleeding and I don’t know why, I should probably go to the doctor and find out what it is.
> 
> Every morning I wake up and my belly button is filled with blood for like over a month now it’s been happening. I don’t have time to go to the doctor because I’m too busy installing and meeting deadlines and never have time for myself.
> 
> Anyway ......... I think I’m dying or getting sick


Hey man. As smart as you are. Ima about to tell you something.

You're wrong. 

You're depressed and its stopping you from caring about your own well being. Think logically about your emotional state and get some help buddy. If not for yourself, for your kids. 









Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Hey man. As smart as you are. Ima about to tell you something.
> 
> You're wrong.
> 
> You're depressed and its stopping you from caring about your own well being. Think logically about your emotional state and get some help buddy. If not for yourself, for your kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk



Thanks! (For reals thank you!) 
I think maybe I am depressed. I don’t know what’s wrong w me. I wake up and go go go go 16hrs a day........ my brain is very mean. I need to stop this, it’s eating me up. 

I haven’t told my wife about my stomach issue I’m afraid she’ll be mad. 

Maybe I can sneak into the doc at a lunch break.......


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Thanks! (For reals thank you!)
> I think maybe I am depressed. I don’t know what’s wrong w me. I wake up and go go go go 16hrs a day........ my brain is very mean. I need to stop this, it’s eating me up.
> 
> I haven’t told my wife about my stomach issue I’m afraid she’ll be mad.
> 
> Maybe I can sneak into the doc at a lunch break.......


I can't imagine why your wife would be mad about your health 0_o

There's plenty of urgent cares around. Though i do believe they take lunches too. Might wanna check hours.

Ask them about your stomach and your mental health. Even a single session with a psychologist can do wonders to help you find a way forward. 

This is worth a read to see if your thouvht processes aren't working healthily.









15 Cognitive Distortions to Blame for Your Negative Thinking


This list of cognitive distortions might be causing your negative thoughts. Here's how to identify and stop these distorted thoughts.




psychcentral.com








Also **** winter and what it does to my tune.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## naiku

Go to the doctor!! Take some time off and get your health sorted out. As much fun as we have with car audio, it's just that, car audio. 

You only get 1 life, if it means someone having to wait a little for an install, they'll get over it. If you ignore health issues until it's too late, you won't be installing much of anything.

So, go to the doctor! Also, I may text you in a few days with some install related questions. Haha 

But. In all seriousness. Doctor first. You have a family.


----------



## Blu

Gonna echo what naiku and Jscoyne2 have said - take care of Number One and get yourself to the Doctor. 
Make the time.
You were (are) a stand-up dude in our purchase transaction... no hate from this guy. If you are depressed, there is no shame in that - get some help to find a way forward.


----------



## dgage

Oabeieo, I love your posts and your dogged determination to learn and get better. Learn a ton from you.

Now it’s your turn to learn from me. I was diagnosed with diabetes in my 30s though it wasn’t health but genes as both sides have diabetes. Early in my 40s, my doc struggled to get me on the right meds and I lost a bunch of weight. I’m finally good now that an endocrinologist said I should have been on insulin a lot earlier. I’m now fully in control with very good blood sugar levels. But I went through hell when my meds were messed up. My hormones were completely messed up with low testosterone that led to me forgetting a lot of things not to mention depression. I’m surprised I was able to keep my high-performing job, it sure as hell wasn't easy but my home life suffered too as I retreated a lot. Everything is balanced now and I feel great but things were bad there for a bit. Go get yourself checked man! You deserve it not to mention your family. I still have a lot to learn from you so get yourself right!


----------



## Mullings

Hey man, all fun and games aside you should go get yourself checked out because sometimes you can wait till something that could’ve been avoided reaches a state where it’s too late for a easy fix. People might not like you for your personality but everyone can’t be the same, keep on being who you are It’s what makes you feel good but seriously, close up the shop and go to the doctor tomorrow. I wish I had your home phone number cuz this is nothing to hide from your wife.


----------



## oabeieo

Okay okay okay , I’ll go 

Diabetes....... yeah that might be a possibility. I’ve never been like this and I know I’m getting old but I’m not that old , (44) but that could very well be a possibility also. 

Its always busy this time at work but it’s something else going on, bleeding in wierd places , feeling like I have zero energy non stop.

I quit smoking 4mo ago , did some vaping for like a week and than quit, for reasons I could feel my health deteriorating. That definitely helped a ton I can breathe way better and don’t stink anymore but there more going on. I need to go in.

Okay **** it I’m going. I hate going to the doctor, it’s always so dam embarrassing having some young broad fiddle around with my fat and my gorilla body. I know this time it’s not going to be good. I can just feel it.
Something is definitely wrong.

Okay I’m going to do this.
Thank you guys! Seriously. I’m kinda scared to find out what’s wrong tbh.


Yeah the wife needs to know, she just gets all stressed out and worried and it makes her in a bad mood till the issue is solved. I hate burdening her with this 

Ill call in morning and make an appt


----------



## dgage

I wasn’t suggesting you might have diabetes, but once they figured everything out, I was SO much better. You’re struggling and you know something is wrong. Hopefully the doctors will figure it out and you’ll be better. It was amazing how my diabetes, when out of control due to med issues, made my hormones go out of whack including testosterone. I have a security key for my computer that I have to input rotating 6 characters. My memory was so bad for a time, I couldn’t remember all 6 numbers, I would have to enter 3 at a time. I also had trouble remembering basic words whether in front of a group or one on one. Plus I had bad depression where I’d stay in bed most/all of the weekend. The body is a system and if one thing is out of whack, it can cause issues with other things. Get better man!


----------



## oabeieo

I feel in many ways -same 

Except the mysterious bleeding. 

No energy , all my desires gone , in morning if I don’t drink something besides water I get a headache and feel dizzy in morning, have absolutely zero energy, feet feel tingling and numb, and have a overwhelming feeling that my predominant defect is talking too much and repeating myself and simply forgetting I already asked the same question or said the same thing multiple times. I don’t care about sex anymore , but more importantly don’t care about tuning either. I feel like I’m worthless and lost all my ambitions like in a matter of 30days. 

and what your saying for some reason seems very relatable. Maybe not I definitely want them to test for that though. That’s scary I never thought about diabetes. Or anything like that even if it is something else. 
I keep thinking it’s because I’m tired. I’m starting to see I’m kidding myself 

It’s like i Have to force myself through a day Of whatever and everything feels like a task. Even the fun stuff.


----------



## dgage

Dude, you’re not alone. I had many of those same thoughts and issues. But I worked with the doc and we got me on insulin instead of a pill so I can control it, which I do very well. And biweekly testosterone shots and I’m good now. Like I said, I’m not thinking diabetes at all but when they figure it out and get you good again, you’ll be good in all ways. The body is a system and when one thing gets out of whack, a lot gets out of whack, which explains how you’re felling. Now to just get to the root cause.


----------



## oabeieo

I have an appointment!

Oh **** ...... (fingers crossed )


----------



## Chris12

I’ve been following your thread for a while now, though I’ve never participated.

I read that you stopped smoking/vaping recently. This is great news, but could be contributing to the emotions that you’re feeling right now.

As others have said, you are an extremely intelligent person. You’ve contributed a lot to this forum. You also seem like a great person.

Talk to the doctor about your health and emotional issues. I googled the belly button thing (as I’m sure you have) and I’m sure it’s not too serious - but needs to be treated.

Most important in my opinion are the emotional issues you’re having. Talk To the doctor about them and they’ll get you help.


----------



## oabeieo

Chris12 said:


> I’ve been following your thread for a while now, though I’ve never participated.
> 
> I read that you stopped smoking/vaping recently. This is great news, but could be contributing to the emotions that you’re feeling right now.
> 
> As others have said, you are an extremely intelligent person. You’ve contributed a lot to this forum. You also seem like a great person.
> 
> Talk to the doctor about your health and emotional issues. I googled the belly button thing (as I’m sure you have) and I’m sure it’s not too serious - but needs to be treated.
> 
> Most important in my opinion are the emotional issues you’re having. Talk To the doctor about them and they’ll get you help.


Thank you! 

I never really thought about quitting smoking causing issues....that’s is sorta when my mental attitude went downhill. 

I appreciate that! Thank you. Yeah sometimes Ive recently read a few of my posts and think I sound like a dusche. Maybe I’m being over critical. That’s why I said that. I read what I written on a few threads and I’m like , my goodness I’m a jerk. And get embarrassed honestly.
It’s not like I’m trying to come off a certain way, it’s more of focusing on my defects and bringing attention to them and putting myself in check. 

I know I’m just a plain old dood , but definitely have a hard time with sounding arrogant. I don’t ever want to be that guy


----------



## oabeieo

Fun little build I did at work. This thing sounded amazing. Nice thing about the aerospace is you can cascade filters. 

The m focals had much better GD numbers with the 3” IB and he had the distance from back wall to do dipole , the stage is super wide and the detail is amazing. 

This guy is in. Wheelchair and is blind so he can have his driver take him around with extreme sq


----------



## Redliner99

That's bad ass man! How'd your doctors appointment go?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VegasStereo

oabeieo said:


> Just got my Honda Fit , gonna do it up real purdy like and have some fun.
> 
> System will be:
> 
> Alpine double din with optical out (X008)
> 
> 2 minidsp 2x4HDs optical input
> 2 Stevins Audio HLCDS
> 2 Stevins audio 8"
> 2 Beyma 10g40s (or Stevins audio 10s have to wait till there available to check its parameters)
> 
> 1 Focal FPS 4160
> 2 focal FPS 3200
> 1 JLHD 1200/1 (eventually will be another focal amp)
> 
> 1 18" B&C subwoofer
> 
> Its a 2012 , has 6700 miles, super clean and fresh for a sick build.
> Been wanting one for a while when looking for the ultimate SQ car layout.
> 
> My goals are for it to image in both front seats.
> 
> I'm going to re-work the dash and cut the horns into the upper firewall right under the windshield. I'm also going to build a custom a pillar that allows 8" midrange to be mounted in the dash. The location for the 8" had a PLD just over 6". Where The horns will be I measure a PLD at just 4".
> 
> I'm going to do a subtub in the spare tire well for the 18" sub. And make it so I can run it either sealed/ported/IB. I'm going to make a port/vent that I can put a plug into, and make a plug on bottom of car that can be opened to vent out to atmosphere when I want to go IB.
> 
> The 10s will be in the footwells cut into the floor/firewall area and fiberglass enclosure that runs down the underside of the car and be sealed and have about/at least 1cu ft of airspace each
> 
> The amps will be mounted on a custom anorak that follows the back seat to its top, and will be floating so that I still have a trunk that is useable.
> 
> I am installing a high output internally regulated alternator. (270A)
> There will also be a second battery on a custom bracket in the engine bay.
> 
> Feel free to chat, definitely intrested in any ideas for the build.
> 
> The bucket,
> 
> [img=http://s32.postimg.org/v0n7fhqvl/image.jpg]
> 
> [img=http://s32.postimg.org/qax9qvzv5/image.jpg]


Was just looking a second ago at Stevens Audio. What has been your experience with them?


----------



## VegasStereo

lsm said:


> Stevens Audio is Eric Stevens new company. Not sure if he has a website up and running yet. Oncore is DOA


Yea it says he was the co-founder of Image Dynamics.


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> That's bad ass man! How'd your doctors appointment go?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks! 

Went good. Got my bloodwork back. No diabetes, my skin is dry , got an inhaler for the copd . Feeling much better! I think the cold weather was just getting to me and I wasn’t drinking enough water. 

So yeah back to normal now. That was weird, glad to be back on top of my life


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Went good. Got my bloodwork back. No diabetes, my skin is dry , got an inhaler for the copd . Feeling much better! I think the cold weather was just getting to me and I wasn’t drinking enough water.
> 
> So yeah back to normal now. That was weird, glad to be back on top of my life


Winters here suck! Good to hear your doing well man 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

VegasStereo said:


> Was just looking a second ago at Stevens Audio. What has been your experience with them?


The SA CS components are amazing. 

Anything specific?


----------



## oabeieo

VegasStereo said:


> Yea it says he was the co-founder of Image Dynamics.


Yes.


----------



## VegasStereo

oabeieo said:


> The SA CS components are amazing.
> 
> Anything specific?


Anything 4 inch midrange?


----------



## oabeieo

VegasStereo said:


> Anything 4 inch midrange?


Not yet, rumors have it something might be in the works , I don’t know if anything yet 

I paired up a eton orchestra 4” with a Stevens component set that worked excellent active.


----------



## VegasStereo

oabeieo said:


> Not yet, rumors have it something might be in the works , I don’t know if anything yet
> 
> I paired up a eton orchestra 4” with a Stevens component set that worked excellent active.


In the market possibly for a quality midrange driver. Hiws the eton u mentioned?


----------



## Redliner99

VegasStereo said:


> In the market possibly for a quality midrange driver. Hiws the eton u mentioned?


Thoughts on the gb40?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VegasStereo

Ni


Redliner99 said:


> Thoughts on the gb40?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Reviews favor it but a little pricey. 
I have a brand new set of A/D/S AL6 components that im wondering if that 6 inch mid could work in my planned setup.
Or even possibly do a trade for an ideal dedicated midrange.


----------



## oabeieo

The gb40 or the hybrid audio are fantastic! 

The hybrid can handle the most power 

The eton driver is nice , big , but nice 

I would go for the gb40 TBh or the hybrid


----------



## VegasStereo

oabeieo said:


> The gb40 or the hybrid audio are fantastic!
> 
> The hybrid can handle the most power
> 
> The eton driver is nice , big , but nice
> 
> I would go for the gb40 TBh or the hybrid


What about the ADS 6 inch I mentioned? Too big n heavy for the dashboard?


----------



## oabeieo

Hell no! I’ve run 6s uptop for a long time in multiple cars, I like a simple two way in the dash the best , a six tweet in the aplillar is excellent! No doors no kicks just the two ways , excellent power handling out of a six to push your way through all the excessive comb filters from dash speakers.

Fire them up or get them on axis and keep them away from firing straight at each other and all should be gravy


----------



## VegasStereo

oabeieo said:


> Hell no! I’ve run 6s uptop for a long time in multiple cars, I like a simple two way in the dash the best , a six tweet in the aplillar is excellent! No doors no kicks just the two ways , excellent power handling out of a six to push your way through all the excessive comb filters from dash speakers.
> 
> Fire them up or get them on axis and keep them away from firing straight at each other and all should be gravy


Hey man, thanks for the response.
Awesome! Good to know. 
I suppose sonic beaming wont be an issue as long as they are mostly on axis? 
As well, Id run a Rainbow 7 inch in kickpanels.
I can say tho, if its too costly to build in the 6 on the dash, the Frog GB40 it is!


----------



## Redliner99

VegasStereo said:


> Hey man, thanks for the response.
> Awesome! Good to know.
> I suppose sonic beaming wont be an issue as long as they are mostly on axis?
> As well, Id run a Rainbow 7 inch in kickpanels.
> I can say tho, if its too costly to build in the 6 on the dash, the Frog GB40 it is!


If your gonna run a 7 in the kick there is no need for 6 on the dash they play the same range. Better have a dedicated midrange on the dash 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VegasStereo

Redliner99 said:


> If your gonna run a 7 in the kick there is no need for 6 on the dash they play the same range. Better have a dedicated midrange on the dash
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That did cross my mind, but I wanted a midrange that could also actually play down low into the upper midbass with authority.
I do understand your point though, and will likely just do a dedicated 3.5 to 4 inch in the dash.


----------



## Redliner99

VegasStereo said:


> That did cross my mind, but I wanted a midrange that could also actually play down low into the upper midbass with authority.
> I do understand your point though, and will likely just do a dedicated 3.5 to 4 inch in the dash.


Use some w800 audio development in the kicks with some gb40 in the dash that would be sweet 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VegasStereo

Redliner99 said:


> Use some w800 audio development in the kicks with some gb40 in the dash that would be sweet
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually have a pair of Rainbow 6.9 inch im going to use.Theyre impecable.?


----------



## oabeieo

I remember rainbow
Those were excellent speaks , I got a set at ces in 2010. I wished I kept them , very nice sounding speakers. I really liked them quite a bit


----------



## VegasStereo

oabeieo said:


> I remember rainbow
> Those were excellent speaks , I got a set at ces in 2010. I wished I kept them , very nice sounding speakers. I really liked them quite a bit


Oh way cool! ? I didnt think they made The Reference n Platinum series that late in time. I bought mine 2001.
Agreed, they really were the best. I heard alot of cars in that era, and nothing sounded like them! I consider myself lucky to still have a pair that are basically brand new.?


----------



## oabeieo

Tried an experiment

Took out the horns

Put a Stevens sa6cs components in on the dash (a pillar 6s and dash tweets)

Put some Dayton low efficiency 8” reference woofers in kicks

Ran the 8x12DL in 8ch Dirac mode
Than ran ddrc22d over everything and it’s badass 

I like it better than horns 

IM GOING LOW EFFICIENCY! Wooot


----------



## oabeieo

Never thought I would ever say it but I love it 

So , I’m going to do a new dash build and get focal M 3ways installed !


----------



## dgage

oabeieo said:


> I’m going to do a new dash build and get focal M 3ways installed !


Are you going to put the Focal 8 on your dash? I’d like to see that. Lol!


----------



## oabeieo

dgage said:


> Are you going to put the Focal 8 on your dash? I’d like to see that. Lol!


I have room for it!!! Whoa ! 

But no , I have plans for the 8 ?

So after listening and comparing the WM focal vs Stevens , I like the Stevens better 

The tbm tweeter is good and has bell like highs , but lacks the softer dynamics that make the Stevens tweeter sound better, 

The back chamber on the Stevens really smooths the phase. Using the LR2 the front lobe is aligned nice to the tweeter. It just works very good. 

I’ll save the focals for something else and maybe use the 8WM.......maybe .....

The 3.5WM might work good and might be a good candidate for mate up to the Stevens components but I like the scan or the Eton or the hybrid, however I’ll probably use focal just because I would like to demo stuff I carry. 

So Stevens and focal , some iteration I’m sure I’ll know soon. But my goooooodnesss that Stevens component set is very well suited for car use and the mid to tweet on a LR2 is simply to die for.


----------



## oabeieo

Started fab today! 

Ooooh can’t wait! I kinda wish I could just not use a 3.5 at all and just rock the SA components alone however my stupid car won’t let me. 

I have to have the mid firing on the same axis as the tweet, the 6.5 is just too big and has to go in the apillar off axis. So a 3” or 3.5” sitting right next to the tweeter on the same axis pointing directly forward and up at same time seems to have rediculous imaging in both seats. And with a towel around the SA6 basket for now just listening with the 3” on the dash next to tweeter and cross the mid to midbass at 615hz LR2 and a polarity flip on the midrange it gets it in both seats , pinpoint imaging. 

So I kinda need to use a 3” otherwise it will look just silly to have a ginormous pod 

Using rephase getting all linear phase is really easy with all the speakers tightly grouped together. It measures super consistent and is basically a slam dunk. 

So hopefully I can get a 3 or 3.5” figured out fairly soon: 

Super stoked for this years build


----------



## oabeieo

Doing the kicks (again) 

Going to .5cu sealed 

Doing a high damped 8” in kick , with 4” short tube out of top to .45 cu foot boxes in sub dash above kick 

Trying to find perfect driver now 





fallout 4 stealth pistol


----------



## oabeieo

I know going sealed will have ......artifacts 

However if I keep the power lower than the mains and do another midbass in the doors IB and run the sealed side under the point of ringing , just to get some seriously awesome transients in the 60-110hz range , and avoid the left door midbass issue by moving it’s axis to kick and than use the door and stagger them to the same HP but diffrent LP and of course make it linear phase , (which is easy when drivers are next to each other) 

It will work , if I was just using a sealed kick , it would ring fairly bad about 125-250hz 

So the kick I may not even use a HPF , I’ll use eq and match the linearization, it should really add some amazing depth to the front and allow the sub to be crossed extremely low ,


----------



## oabeieo

I wanted to use the focal in the IB selection 
Only because it has a lot of detail , 
If I can’t find a good set of cheaper drivers like the MK1 for the kicks , than I’ll use a focal , probably the FX 8” slim woofer 

It’s damped good


----------



## oabeieo

Got some duraglassing and dancing and bindi work done for the kicks 

Two part kicks , the upper boxes are done , there at the shop 


So , should I convert it to a 6.5” with a plate 
And do the MK1 si woofer or do the focal flax p20se in these ? 

The focal would be excellent because I sell focal , and they have 11mm xmax! Or the Mk1 ??? 

I have someone (thanks theslayking) that will lend me a set of MK1. To test , I would have to purchase the focal set, 

What should I do ....... 






Here is specs on the focal 




https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/ft_p20fse.pdf


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Got some duraglassing and dancing and bindi work done for the kicks
> 
> Two part kicks , the upper boxes are done , there at the shop
> 
> 
> So , should I convert it to a 6.5” with a plate
> And do the MK1 si woofer or do the focal flax p20se in these ?
> 
> The focal would be excellent because I sell focal , and they have 11mm xmax! Or the Mk1 ???
> 
> I have someone (thanks theslayking) that will lend me a set of MK1. To test , I would have to purchase the focal set,
> 
> What should I do .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is specs on the focal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/ft_p20fse.pdf


8" subs in the kicks would be so sick!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

The bottom of that kick panel will also be sealed and glassed up. The vent hole leads to upper sealed large chamber, it’s a 4” OD 3.65” ID tube that will be no longer than 4” total leading up to sealed box that is made of MDF and lined with rock wool.

The walls of the kick are now a solid 2” thick of duraglass , I filled it with a gallon of duraglass and I’m going lime it with modeling clay , I figure I’ll make the kick panel pod as small as I can to push any ringing it might have out of band and up in frequency.


----------



## oabeieo

O


Redliner99 said:


> 8" subs in the kicks would be so sick!!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


okay!! 

So one vote for the focal 

I’m so afraid a speaker rated as a “subwoofer” will loose fidelity above 90hz and get the nasties. However the focal looks like it might work excellent. 

This morning I was all about the MK1 now I’m starting to have a change of heart


----------



## oabeieo

So made a deal on the mk1 .... I’m doin it ....
But wait, I’m also doin the focal , and it will be a show down to see what’s better.

And which ever performs worce in the kicks will simply go in the back doors and be rear fill midbass. 

I think 3 sets of midbass is just right. All lower power , and staggered power , the imaging divers get the most power , the fills are just fills , an full the dips and smooth the responce.

In home theater, multiple subs is how you get smooth bass, in a car, multiple midbass is how you get smooth midbass.

Low power is 150w (for me it’s low power) I consider normal power 300w per channel. 

With 3 alpine xa70F 160x4 4ch Amps I think I should be able to fill any hole in responce under 250hz 

The kicks will be for the deep lows in midbass and into the sub bass some and get the mains to punch and have a punch to them. The doors are IB high power midbass to play 70-250. The rear doors are low power to play midbass to 250 also, as a reinforcement driver at low power. 

The top of dash will be the Stevens sa6cs components that will play 250-3000 and Stevens’s tweeter to play 3000 and up 

The 3” uptop will be on stupid low power (30w) and be used to steer the imaging on the Stevens that won’t be on axis. The 3” is going to be at such low power it’s just a imaging speaker to blend the axises of the 6.5 to the tweeter. I’ll have to create a custom impulse sort of like beam forming,

I might try the use of HK filters with this arrangement or simply make my own filter that will do what I want.


I’ve also discovered having the speaker on the dash in no baffle (just speaker on dash with no mount at all) actually has some sonic benifits having the rear wave playing into windshield. Stage is deep and wide, vocal not smeared at all. So I might incorporate some of that into the build also. 

This is all just dry runs, as soon as the custom is done and start tooning I’ll see what I can actually do. For now , having my testing work almost done it seems to be a hit and better than any previous iteration. 

95% of the sound will just be the Stevens components as far as mids and highs go. 
All the other speakers are simply fill.


----------



## oabeieo

So made a deal on the mk1 .... I’m doin it ....
But wait, I’m also doin the focal , and it will be a show down to see what’s better.

And which ever performs worce in the kicks will simply go in the back doors and be rear fill midbass. 

I think 3 sets of midbass is just right. All lower power , and staggered power , the imaging divers get the most power , the fills are just fills , an full the dips and smooth the responce.

In home theater, multiple subs is how you get smooth bass, in a car, multiple midbass is how you get smooth midbass.

Low power is 150w (for me it’s low power) I consider normal power 300w per channel. 

With 3 alpine xa70F 160x4 4ch Amps I think I should be able to fill any hole in responce under 250hz 

The kicks will be for the deep lows in midbass and into the sub bass some and get the mains to punch and have a punch to them. The doors are IB high power midbass to play 70-250. The rear doors are low power to play midbass to 250 also, as a reinforcement driver at low power. 

The top of dash will be the Stevens sa6cs components that will play 250-3000 and Stevens’s tweeter to play 3000 and up 

The 3” uptop will be on stupid low power (30w) and be used to steer the imaging on the Stevens that won’t be on axis. The 3” is going to be at such low power it’s just a imaging speaker to blend the axises of the 6.5 to the tweeter. I’ll have to create a custom impulse sort of like beam forming,

I might try the use of HK filters with this arrangement or simply make my own filter that will do what I want.


I’ve also discovered having the speaker on the dash in no baffle (just speaker on dash with no mount at all) actually has some sonic benifits having the rear wave playing into windshield. Stage is deep and wide, vocal not smeared at all. So I might incorporate some of that into the build also. 

This is all just dry runs, as soon as the custom is done and start tooning I’ll see what I can actually do. For now , having my testing work almost done it seems to be a hit and better than any previous iteration. 

95% of the sound will just be the Stevens components as far as mids and highs go. 
All the other speakers are simply fill.


----------



## Redliner99

So correct me if I'm wrong. Your going to have tweeter, 3" and 6" on the dash on each side, 8" in the kicks, something in the front doors on each side and something in the back doors on each side as well as a sub in the rear? 


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## oabeieo

12 channels yes sir


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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> 12 channels yes sir


Are you gonna run a rear sub? This is gonna be insane!


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## oabeieo

Hopefully crossing at 50,60 
If all goes well , yes!


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## oabeieo

So .....

Ran into a snag 

Got my pillars 1/2 way mikes up and cut out all pieces 

On way home had the Stevens 6.5 resting on dash but had it pointing at a mix of mostly up and sorta pointed at center of car and at me simultaneously, 

The imaging was super detailed and up high and deep. 

Should I continue to finish my dash or rip it all out and start over and do the firing up and at me thing


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## oabeieo




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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


>


Are you not worried about the 3" being covered?


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## oabeieo

From the driver seat it’s about 80% clear shot to my head 

I’m doing a thick piece of acoustic foam on top of the mold and over on top of the 3” (rituculated foam) and it’s barley going to be on. Like so so barley , maybe 10 to 20w at full Blair volume. 

It’s going to be used in a special way. I’ll have another 3” for midrange that will be mounted next to tweet. 

The 3.5 if my plan doesn’t work right or as good as without will be abandoned and not used at least for SQ listening. 

I might redo the whole thing tho and get the 6 to fire up more 

Kinda mostly up and crossfired simultaneously that seems to have the best stage placement. But this was will look way cooler (I demo it a lot so looks unfortunately help me make my living) it should still sound just fine, I actually angled the 6s slightly on axis as well. 

Ever hold a pair of speakers off axis in front of you, not much sound turn them in just a tiny bit and your in the coverage area. This setup should look a lot like my old apillar build except be designed way better


----------



## oabeieo

This is my old aplillars 
They sounded awesome except I needed to angle them in just a tad. I wasn’t quite in the beam at all , picked up mostly combfiltering 

This time I duraglassed the 6 in at an angle inside the grill and added the 3.5

I remember when I had my old ones I thought and listened carefully and thought about what I would do differently , so now I’m doing it , 

If firing up didn’t look so dam retarded I would definitely do it. Trying have a happy medium.


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## oabeieo

gif hosting


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## oabeieo

gif hosting


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## oabeieo

Got some glass work done today. 

They starting to come together a tiny bit.

Just got a fresh gallon of duraglass and bondo. Going to do some damping material on and in the IB section and seperate the back chamber from 3.5 to 6” so the backwaves don’t interact with my beamform.

So the 3.5 my plan is to.... do basically in a car , the reflected sound and direct sound combine and sum, if I can do a sum gain beamform with a fir, I should be able to make the off axis and on axis sound more even. Because the reflections cause such a uneven rta responce from just a few inches together. I’m hoping for a much more uniform responce 

But ultimately, I wanted the 3.5” location just to have it and play with it 

I might do the small mid firing up next to tweet on dash or stick tweet in 3.5” location and not use a 3” at all . I just like having options and different tunes on presets that I can play with .


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## oabeieo

Worked 12 hrs on the car today. Got some vynil done.


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## oabeieo

Made a 2 gallon milkshake out of duraglass, bondo, fiberglass resin, poured the milkshake on the back of the panel into the crevices and such. The a pillar baffle is 3” thick and has two layers of stinger x damping mat on it. (That **** is thick , twice as thick as dynamat) 

Carved the lower vent into the subdash so it’s IB behavior. 

Listened on way home with the Stevens components only and sub and dammmm 

No tuning nada , and it was bomb. I can’t wait to see how much worce adding the 3.5” is going to make it. I might just leave the 3.5” spot for a future 3” from Stevens , and not do anything with it for now. The Stevens components sound so good just by themselves. I would be crazy to add more. ( you know I’m going to try it) but For reals , the Stevens set of 6.5” plays the 1k to3k range so incredibly good, there’s just no way adding a 3” will make it better. 

But it’s fun, I love the way it sounds, getting the drivers slightly angled in was the key compared to the last pillars I ran. Man that makes such a big difference to just get a few degrees, I am only adding about 20deg in but like I said I’m in the beam and it’s just a wave of sound. Such an amazing set.


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## oabeieo

Getting more done in the way of apillars


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## oabeieo

TRying to get the foam to look right. 

Not sure if I’ll keep some of it 

Got to build the grill first using the same metal I used on kicks should look thugg 

The vynil looks killer, it’s softside Verona 

Lasting I used keyson bros mystique 

I liked the mystique better but the Verona i wanted tonswitch it up and looks excellent


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## oabeieo

HOOKed it up yo! 

The 3.5 does exactly what I wanted it to! 
Wow! Testing things acoustically first and planning and driver selection actually does work. Lol (I’m kidding)

The 3.5 is playing from 70-300 and that thing frikkin bumps. 4.5mm 3n a half excursions wow. I have only 120w on them and they’re taking it. I don’t listen that loud but I like it loud , just not blasting loud. 

This 3.5 works so good and gets the top of the dash to have bass. It’s crazy how good it works. I actually feel lucky , things usually don’t work this good for me. Usually it’s mediocre and I have to use dsp to make it tolerable to excellent because the cars interior and listening space. This 3.5 works so nice and I haven’t even done any tuning. 

Just a raw delay and a textbook linear crossover. No eq is done yet and this upper dash is good enough for me without the kicks on yet. 

I tried playing it over the Stevens and as I suspected, the Stevens should just be left alone. It dosent want a 3” not need one.

I’m all about having a single pair of speakers do everything from 300 to 3k and do all the delicate midrange. No other speakers to change things. 

So far I’m loving it


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## naiku

You're working a whole lot faster than I am!! Looking great.


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## oabeieo

Grills turned out dope as cluck 

We have a CNC at work to cut plex 

I’m going to do the Stevens symbol on the dash


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## Redliner99

Are you leaving the tweet on the dash?


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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Are you leaving the tweet on the dash?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes c there’s a factory spot, my wife is doing alterations and sewing in the dash mat and there getting cut in tonight 

We should do a meet up in April and so a sq meet up


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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Yes c there’s a factory spot, my wife is doing alterations and sewing in the dash mat and there getting cut in tonight
> 
> We should do a meet up in April and so a sq meet up


Ah I got you. Are you going to point them up at the windshield?


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## oabeieo

Yes


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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Yes


Not worried about FR with bouncing off the windshield? 


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## oabeieo

They don’t point up up it so more at you and up at same time


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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> They don’t point up up it so more at you and up at same time


Ahhhh ok I got you. I'm stoked to see your done pictures and get your thoughts on this iteration. Your horn setup I heard when you helped me tune my car sounded amazing 


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## oabeieo




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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Ahhhh ok I got you. I'm stoked to see your done pictures and get your thoughts on this iteration. Your horn setup I heard when you helped me tune my car sounded amazing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Best sounding car I’ve ever had. No doubt.
I’ll need a lot of talking into feeling nerdy to compete, but it would do good I’m certain.
I’ve heard a lot of good cars. I can finally say this is on par without stretching the truth or kidding myself. So yeah I likeee


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## oabeieo

I figured out a super cool way to completely solve the 80hz dip.

First off the dip isn’t as bad as you think once the room gain from sub is eq down. 
However it’s still there, just 6db deep instead of 18db deep. 

By adding a small woofer in the center of the car the dip is gone. However finding a place to put it sucks and the sound is localized if made too loud. Careful dsp and delays should be used and it can mostly vanish. 

Bass has lots of impact and frequency responce is great. So basically under the armrest/console. I decided not to do it. If I had a full-size truck or car that has a big center console I would be in order.

The Bose system in 2003-2017 Chevy/GM full-size truck/suv has a 5” DVC sub in the center console, that factory sub sounds so good and are almost indestructible. That would be the next best thing as it’s in the middle but it’s up front. 

I think I’m going to explore using a pair of Dayton ND-91-4 3.5” woofers with 4.5mm one way xmax and 11mm Xsan and do a small sub under each seat firing up against the center console placed as far forward as possible to reinforce that dip would make a great way to fill that dip fully and completely. 

That will be the next feat after this is done. 
Getting a extremely short bandwidth linear phase 48db filter would not be too difficult to pull off. A single 2x4hd would do the job, 
With rephase and center the impulse at about 16ms. Would take some clever reading of measurements and being a good listener to get the blend to work good, as it’s not a summing driver but a reinforcement driver it will want to be localized easily. 

It’s worth the venture if big wide cars


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## oabeieo

Upper boxes and kicks pretty much done 

Threw the G40s in and low and behold they bump. In a way I am kinda liking quite a bit.

There pro audio so prone to cone resonances from small enclosures. But by goodness it’s working. 

I’m not sure what I’ll like more now, the focal, the g40 or the , g40s play to at least 50 full power full magnitude by guessing by ear. They don’t bump they thump and I’m liking it a lot  

We’ll see 

My plan works tho! Hot dam it frikkin works. And no bad ringing at all. Making the walls of the kicks very very thick was the key. 









postimage org safe


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## Redliner99

I don't know if I missed the post but can you lay out what drivers and where they are going I'm so confused. Kicks looks damn good 


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## oabeieo




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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> I don't know if I missed the post but can you lay out what drivers and where they are going I'm so confused. Kicks looks damn good
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sundown SA-18 10-65hz
8g40-4 kicks (or another driver possibly the SI TM65 or focal fx20pse)) 65-300
Stevens SA6 300-3k
Stevens SA-TW 3k-20k
Dayton Nd-91-4 ( experimental, crosstalk cancelation or midbass reinforcement. Have to find a best fit)


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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Sundown SA-18 10-65hz
> 8g40-4 kicks (or another driver possibly the SI TM65 or focal fx20pse)) 65-300
> Stevens SA6 300-3k
> Stevens SA-TW 3k-20k
> Dayton Nd-91-4 ( experimental, crosstalk cancelation or midbass reinforcement. Have to find a best fit)


Where are the gb40? 


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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Where are the gb40?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No gb40. 8G40 it’s a beyma 8” pro audio midbass that’s exceptional like the 2118H 

I was thinking I would need an 8 with better self damping because the small kick 1st chamber standingbwaves etc 
The 8G40 is doing quite well.

I already have 2 sets on the way. So I’ll have to try them all


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## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> No gb40. 8G40 it’s a beyma 8” pro audio midbass that’s exceptional like the 2118H
> 
> I was thinking I would need an 8 with better self damping because the small kick 1st chamber standingbwaves etc
> The 8G40 is doing quite well.
> 
> I already have 2 sets on the way. So I’ll have to try them all


Ahhhh ok I see now 


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## oabeieo

As good as g40 is it’s not going to work 

I’m heearing the high fs high f3 be a issue 

I put the Dayton rs225 on just to try it and it’s thumpin , plays to 65 on passenger side and 75 driver side


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## oabeieo

Got the tm65 today 

Man what a unusual loudspeaker this is 

The cone looks pathetic, but something tells me looks are quite deceiving, that motor looks though as hell. Oh dang it will be interesting 

I’m going throw them in on Monday, if there not up to the task (which I’ll be asking a lot from) they will become rears as reinforcement midbass


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## oabeieo

Here’s something stupid I did 

Only reason I’m sharing is as a warning to not do this 

So my Dayton 8” aluminum cone rs255s I’ve had for about 10 years because I love the sound of this , I decided to tape off the basket and put dum dum on the bobbin around phase plug to grind the basket edge with a bench grinder to get it to fit in my kick where it’s recessed 

I figured the cast won’t get too hot and to go slow taping it off so the aluminum dust doesn’t get into the gap 

So I grinder them down , I didn’t feel much heat at all , somehow the heat went right to the coil and seized the cones! Uugh 

Hindsight I’m like “that was sure dumb of me” f ing ruined a good set of 8s


----------



## oabeieo

Just ordered the esotec 8 inch for the kicks 

The MK1 will be a door midbass for rears for reinforcement means on that 80hz dip

The mk1 simply didn’t dig deep enough for me but holy crap this thing boogies at 90hz wow! I mean downright gets nasty amount of clean output. What a excellent excellent door speaker. You gain a good 3db with all that xmax in the brute force null filling dips at 80 and 160 for the left side (driver side) and it’s inverse for the passenger side. 

Sounds good as a midrange also, just not quite the bass I was trying to get, close very close. Just not quite. I really want the kicks to play to at least 60 with a f3 around 45 to 55 max 

I’m seeing an f3 around 65 which is almost there and is satisfying but I want more of a sub and midbass. 

In no way am I disappointed with the mk1 , I’m definitely still going to use it! Just use it where it wants to be used the most. In a door. 

The esotec mw172 should do the job satisfactory and I’ve had lots of dyns before , I like them , there good speakers. And for this highly damped sound I’m after it’s a excellent Choice, I just wanted to try something different


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## oabeieo

....


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## oabeieo

Surround fully repaired. Must use small screws apparently or surround glue gets loose. So the stock glue kinda sucks. Upgraded to a siliconeised buytl glue and re glued the surrounds with a much better glue. Made sure the ribbing matched up and no to much excess. No excess glue pushed past the edge but made sure the seal is good.

The mk series drivers should be fooled with a metal or plastic ring to retain the surround by pressure of the mounting screws would eliminate such an issue.

Overall they kick ass. Play midbass like a champ and have exceptional vocal qualities, very sharp lower vocals. The Stevens mb6 also has the same qualities however.

The mb6 could take 320w ch at full boar down to 80 with mild resonances

I’ll play the si for a week and change it to get 170w a coil for 320w. I’m break them in first

My breaking in of drivers is simply getting to know it’s limitations so I don’t over do it. Don’t like the small of hot coils a week into a new set. Just like to go slow at first. The slutty ones will reveal themself. Lol 
Kinda like ds18 is the biggest ho online. 
Cheap and slutty underneath all the glamour


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## dgage

Oh yeah, you’re supposed to use washers on those surrounds. I forgot about that.


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## oabeieo

dgage said:


> Oh yeah, you’re supposed to use washers on those surrounds. I forgot about that.


I could kinda tell a screw would bite into the rubber, I’ve seen few spkrs like that. 

Went on a drive tonight and there starting to warm up a little on me. Definitely has a damped bass sound to the midbass. The 40hz harmonics and bass in the crossover sound warm with the sub. Very nice sounding midbass. I’m starting to get it now


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## oabeieo

Look what cat dragged in. 

Got the 8s (thanks Porsche they look great) 

Now to test the “amazing non resonance” as stated in the dyn brochure for the 72s 

I’ve had these before and they do have quite the clean sound. I think they will work excellent. 

My last set I blew to kingdom come. They sounded clean at like 130db so I didn’t think they would give up but they did 
This time not that mistake , but that was also years ago


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## oabeieo

Edit


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## naiku

Here's hoping nothing but good things from here on out.


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## dgage

Glad to have you back Andy! I always enjoy the amazing things you come up with regarding the 8x12DL and other MiniDSP units.


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## Jscoyne2

God damn man.


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## oabeieo

Yeah for real I edited that I only wanted you guys to see that neither world knowing my business, but yeah pretty fing gay 
and a big giant waste of time


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## oabeieo

So....my 3.5s in the dash I did something that worked out very good....

A pseudo crosstalk cancelation channel 

I did a seperate Dirac tune for the 3.5s in dash , I had to put all 4 midbass on one set of Dirac channels but that works fine 

The 3.5s I set to the same shape as the 6.5s on the dash... but the right one in the matrix I added in the left channel and inverted than attenuated the signal on that until the stage was perfect..... and it did wonders ....I’ll always do it and recommend it 

It seems because the left channel is closer both ears especially the right ear gets as much or more energy as the left... sometimes more ... so by adding a little to the right 3.5 as a control speaker to cancel that left channel to right ear just a tiny bit (it’s at -29db) it opens the stage up a lot and the center moved more back..... I love it


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## oabeieo

And the 172s sound great as expected, but don’t get super loud... but definitely loud enough for me...the high efficiency 8s sounded better as midbass like the 8g40 
But I like the non resonance of the 72s 
I just can’t hear them playing.... but they are there if I mute the other channels .... so I like that ... the sound is very (extremely) transparent... which to me just means non resonant ... yeah there dope I like them a lot


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## oabeieo

Have had the same Dirac tune with the 8x12dL for about a year 
Sold my 8x12dL and now using strictly rephase crossovers and pre Dirac phase alignments per drivers so the rise time is the same across all drivers to my 1st measurement point. Dirac shouldn’t have to incorporate those anomalies into its all pass or very little.

mixed phase correction is honestly ideal and I’m seeing the usefulness of it now....

It would be cool if rephase allowed the use of mixed phase coefficients


----------



## oabeieo

Just ordered a set of speakers I thought I would never use..... I won’t say the name on here , there expensive AF and way over rated ..... I had a set a while ago that I sold to a friend , I’m only doing the 3.5” midrange..... if it’s good enough I’ll make consider doing all of the set..... MmmmmmmmmmmWonder what it is..... 

I was playing with a set and the 3.5 has strangely enough an incredible amount of detail and very good SQ.....

They don’t go loud but wow they do sound very good..... so I’ll see how much I like , may do the 8-6-3-1 in my 5 way


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## fullergoku

why the tease man?? lol


----------



## DirtyBumOak510

I got a dollar on Focal M series


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## Chris12

Exactly what I was thinking 😎


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## Mullings

If I was I betting man I would put all my money on the 3.5wm


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## oabeieo

Think be and way too expensive 
Should be an easy guess


----------



## oabeieo

Mullings said:


> If I was I betting man I would put all my money on the 3.5wm



We have a winner 

I’m doing 8-6 (x2)- 3.5- 1 in a 5way


----------



## oabeieo

fullergoku said:


> why the tease man?? lol


Because I’ve talked a lot of trash in the past about this brand because the hype isn’t all ppl make it.... it’s just speakers , however after about 15 sets of these Ms now in different cars , damm there just special ..... better then the old utopias 

Although the TBE tweet I still like a bit more then the TBM..... the surround on a tweeter I’m not so sure about, it’s mounted like a subwoofer....... it’s still very nice , just seems to lost some of the bell like highs


----------



## oabeieo

Added utopia 3.5WM..... what a nice mid to pair up to the stevens SA6cs 

First off this midrange has dispersion that is to die for.... they sound good on and off axis. And wow what a controlled driver 

They have absolutely crazy amounts of detail.... it’s incredible how much detail you can hear with these....

I have them running at 1.4khz LR8 to 3.6Khz LR8 and it’s bad ass 

I was going to do the be utopia tweets but I am not sure now, the 35wm sings with the stevens tweeter like in an amazing way... tons of sibilance and harmony between the two drivers , I’m happy 

I’ve knocked focal for years and years as over priced because nothing they make is “that good” for what they ask..... this WM actually is..... after installing so many sets for other ppl I’m sorta excited to see what I can do with it with adequate time in my own car as I know my own system way way better then anyone else’s install I do as I drive it every day and know how the acoustics behave in my car and have heard literally hundreds of speakers in this same car.... 

I’m a fan now , not quite fan boy.. they got this one right... but you’ll pay for it. Over priced , absolutely! But dam what a good behaving midrange.


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## oabeieo

And nope, won’t cross it lower ..... maybe I’ll take it to 1k . Although beefy for a 3.5” , the stevens take power just fine down low and have plenty of detail..... the stevens sound every bit as good no doubt 

For me I wanted a 3.5” that can play more on axis and do the high midrange a little better then a 6.5can , it’s simply laws of physics has has nothing to do with the quality of the Stevens driver..... it has everything to do with cone size and angular geometry 


I would smoke this thing in a week if I crossed it lower lol


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> And nope, won’t cross it lower ..... maybe I’ll take it to 1k . Although beefy for a 3.5” , the stevens take power just fine down low and have plenty of detail..... the stevens sound every bit as good no doubt
> 
> For me I wanted a 3.5” that can play more on axis and do the high midrange a little better then a 6.5can , it’s simply laws of physics has has nothing to do with the quality of the Stevens driver..... it has everything to do with cone size and angular geometry
> 
> 
> I would smoke this thing in a week if I crossed it lower lol


Glad to see you back around man! You should get some pics of your current install!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Yeah I can ....... 

And thanks yeah I wanted to do a meet up but something horrible happened (again) pm


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## oabeieo




----------



## DirtyBumOak510

How well do they hang sensitivity-wise with the Stevens SA6? Can they keep up?


----------



## oabeieo

DirtyBumOak510 said:


> How well do they hang sensitivity-wise with the Stevens SA6? Can they keep up?


perfectly! There are truly a match made in heaven, all of the utopias I’ve installed have had a very distinct sound that’s really really good between 1.6 K and 5K,

The utopia Twitter is very good because I love bell like highs with the beryllium, but I threw this mid range in and to my surprise most of that sound that I really thought was the Beryllium Tweeter was actually the mid range.... it sounds just like a Utopia a 3 way, but it’s Stevens.

I really love this mid range it’s the only mid range I’ve ever heard that has really good dynamics and sounds like stevens horn as far as dynamics in the 1-2k range

what’s weird is it a little bit
Honky like a horn, it’s got a dry sound that is very smooth and articulate around 1.2khz. Really has striking realism.

it matches sensitivity wise perfectly though.... I haven’t had to adjust to the levels on either set before tuning. Coming in at 88db and the sa6 at 91db , it’s kind of perfect as far as your tilt goes and having some efficiency to burn in the midbass to correct for extreme comb filters by eq cuts..

Are usually don’t pay much attention to sensitivity numbers though because all of that changes once you start using equalizers and mounting them anywhere except for in maybe I’ll football field

As far as dispersion goes it’s a very good match.

The mid range to midbass for me is a no-brainer because I’m crossed so high (1.4K),
But that mid and the Steven‘s Tweeter absolutely love each other.


----------



## DirtyBumOak510

oabeieo said:


> it matches sensitivity wise perfectly though.... I haven’t had to adjust to the levels on either set before tuning. Coming in at 88db and the sa6 at 91db , it’s kind of perfect as far as your tilt goes and having some efficiency to burn in the midbass to correct for extreme comb filters by eq cuts..
> 
> Are usually don’t pay much attention to sensitivity numbers though because all of that changes once you start using equalizers and mounting them anywhere except for in maybe I’ll football field


I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around lower sensitivity mids being sandwiched in between high-ish sensitivity midbass (SA-6 w/ 90db @1w) and obviously the ridiculous sensitivity of HLCDs (108 @ 1w for instance). Somehow in there we throw something like the 3.5wm from focal that has 88 @ 2.83v which according to my calculations is ~83db @ 1w/1m. According to its spec sheet we only can throw "max power" of 100w at it which gives us 103db. Not much for dynamic range for our mids.

Granted ... 1khz - 4khz is arguably our most attenuated frequencies, so thus our midrange can be the least sensitive driver in our system. Midbass typically doesn't get the same boost that our subwoofers get from cabin gain, so they really are the ones doing the heavy lifting in terms of sensitivity since they are playing into the 80hz-200hz region which according to most (not all) house curves is where we need to see that rising response and those extra db. We have talked previously and I know that you aren't necessarily a subscriber to the typical house curves that many are using (1/2 whitledge, Audiofrog, etc). 

But all this always makes me wonder about sandwiching an average sensitivity mid in between a high sensitivity midbass and an HLCD. I know Mic recommended doing the same thing, so its obviously working for serious competitors. My newb brain just can't grasp it. What am I missing?

Also obviously any good midrange is going to do just fine. Dyn's, Focals, etc. Nobody is complaining about them. It's just them sandwiched in between extreme sensitivity HLCDs and high sensitivity midbass.


----------



## oabeieo

Just ordered utopia 8s,6sand 1s 

should have kept the set I had , I made home speakers and sold them ....here it goes again changing my system right when I get it working awesome


----------



## oabeieo

Looky looky 
They get down to business


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> Looky looky
> They get down to business
> View attachment 310446
> View attachment 310447


Those look sweet!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Those look sweet!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i have 175w on each coil (350 w per speaker, 700w on the pair) 
No HPF , and I have 80hz boosted 3db

pushing as hard as I can , no breakup , no distortion, no bottoming out


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> i have 175w on each coil (350 w per speaker, 700w on the pair)
> No HPF , and I have 80hz boosted 3db
> 
> pushing as hard as I can , no breakup , no distortion, no bottoming out


Jesus that's a ton. What speaker is that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> Jesus that's a ton. What speaker is that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the new epique M-mag 7”

14.5mm linear one way excursion
Full copper sleeve 
Triple stack magnets (ferrite neo hybrid)
Dual voice coil like an XBL but a bit different only that it’s overhung instead of underhung. But it’s basically an XBL idea 

this fvucking thing gets with it oh my goodness.... it does way more then I expected and I had high expectations...

more almost 5” deep I have a thread with pics on the technical forums ....


----------



## oabeieo

DirtyBumOak510 said:


> I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around lower sensitivity mids being sandwiched in between high-ish sensitivity midbass (SA-6 w/ 90db @1w) and obviously the ridiculous sensitivity of HLCDs (108 @ 1w for instance). Somehow in there we throw something like the 3.5wm from focal that has 88 @ 2.83v which according to my calculations is ~83db @ 1w/1m. According to its spec sheet we only can throw "max power" of 100w at it which gives us 103db. Not much for dynamic range for our mids.
> 
> Granted ... 1khz - 4khz is arguably our most attenuated frequencies, so thus our midrange can be the least sensitive driver in our system. Midbass typically doesn't get the same boost that our subwoofers get from cabin gain, so they really are the ones doing the heavy lifting in terms of sensitivity since they are playing into the 80hz-200hz region which according to most (not all) house curves is where we need to see that rising response and those extra db. We have talked previously and I know that you aren't necessarily a subscriber to the typical house curves that many are using (1/2 whitledge, Audiofrog, etc).
> 
> But all this always makes me wonder about sandwiching an average sensitivity mid in between a high sensitivity midbass and an HLCD. I know Mic recommended doing the same thing, so its obviously working for serious competitors. My newb brain just can't grasp it. What am I missing?
> 
> Also obviously any good midrange is going to do just fine. Dyn's, Focals, etc. Nobody is complaining about them. It's just them sandwiched in between extreme sensitivity HLCDs and high sensitivity midbass.


i love some good high sensitivity drivers
But I’ve also found I would cut so much from them to get sq because of cone resonance and breakup , although they would get mean loud , at times the con noise would be louder than the detail

so I’m very torn in between where I like to be as far as sensitivity goes

i’ll tell you what though, these new drivers will get plenty loud for me and my goodness they just don’t have any break up at all..... it’s crazy how well behaved they are ..


----------



## oabeieo

Some goodies


----------



## oabeieo

Got the 1st round done 

so far.... good.... the stevens set definitely stands up to these....

my wife says “it sounds the same” lol

and I would say it’s mostly the same also....

the sa6 amd the 6wm are very similar. The 6wm is a little bit more midbass but it bottoms out pretty dam bad when I crossed at 80 where the stevens did not

so the 6wm is crossed at 250 with a self defined 2nd order Q.7 and with a HK- 1k ratio 2.4

the 3wm is HK also 1k to 2.7k (which is the equivalent to a LR8 1400,3000)

8wm is 80,250

tweet is cascade filters LR2 at 3k and a 1st order at 1500 keeps the shape of a LR2 but gets me -17db at fs with more attinuarion at 2k


----------



## Mullings

I honestly think you should be using beyma, b&c and those pro audio speakers, please don’t take it the wrong way but I think that you’re asking for too much from the speakers that you’re using right now, I recently did a system for a customer that left a deposit for a morel 3way with 1 ultimo 12” and when he and his friend came to drop off the truck, a customer that I did b&c 8pe21’s, beyma ast 60sq’s and (2) 12w7’s in a Lexus for was there shaking the block and the customer switched on the spot and wanted that spl but would still like to have good imaging and staging so I went with all beyma and a single 12w7 with a solid tune and he couldn’t be happier. Maybe you should try this route, your ears will tap out long before the speakers do.


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## oabeieo

Mullings said:


> I honestly think you should be using beyma, b&c and those pro audio speakers, please don’t take it the wrong way but I think that you’re asking for too much from the speakers that you’re using right now, I recently did a system for a customer that left a deposit for a morel 3way with 1 ultimo 12” and when he and his friend came to drop off the truck, a customer that I did b&c 8pe21’s, beyma ast 60sq’s and (2) 12w7’s in a Lexus for was there shaking the block and the customer switched on the spot and wanted that spl but would still like to have good imaging and staging so I went with all beyma and a single 12w7 with a solid tune and he couldn’t be happier. Maybe you should try this route, your ears will tap out long before the speakers do.


you honestly should hear my car .... lol
There’s nothing I could post that could come close to how it sounds...

It is the best car I’ve ever heard ..... easily, and I’ve had all the Beymas and b&cs i have a garage full of them

im Not trying to be super loud

just want to be able to play comfortably loud without melting or even getting warm any driver

in the past , right when I would get things just right a 30w midrange would go..... I can play comfortably loud now , and zero damage!

I mean , why would I want to do that ? 
I don’t like w7s (there just boring) and why would I want all that resonance?


----------



## Mullings

oabeieo said:


> you honestly should hear my car .... lol
> There’s nothing I could post that could come close to how it sounds...
> 
> It is the best car I’ve ever heard ..... easily, and I’ve had all the Beymas and b&cs i have a garage full of them
> 
> im Not trying to be super loud
> 
> just want to be able to play comfortably loud without melting or even getting warm any driver
> 
> in the past , right when I would get things just right a 30w midrange would go..... I can play comfortably loud now , and zero damage!
> 
> I mean , why would I want to do that ?
> I don’t like w7s (there just boring) and why would I want all that resonance?


I apologize for the wrong judgment, I just don’t understand your system but it’s clearly is working for you so rock on man👍🏿


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## oabeieo

Mullings said:


> I apologize for the wrong judgment, I just don’t understand your system but it’s clearly is working for you so rock on man👍🏿


no worries 

theres nothing like a goodhorn system... and Beyma g40s and all of that , I ran horns for a 20 year run on at least one car, and still have horns in my van with a 6ch focal amp and dexp99

it’s dope AF but this car is all about sq

My goal with this car is to have it sound like I have a dam nice set of bookshelves in front of me with a sub

I’ve achieved that, that’s all I wanted, really dam good sq with a huge deep sound field and placement that is perfect.

im not after the immersive wide sound (although it’s great) that’s not my system goals... I want the sound to be in front of me, easy to listen to (non fatiguing) and pinpoint accuracy on imaging and staging with excellent realism , ambiance in the sound field , and free of resonance and breakup in the speaker.

could it be wider? Sure, that doesn’t mean better. could it be more efficient? Sure, I’m not trying to be super loud.

and a serious note on efficiency.... once the phase is good and all the speakers are working together, and not fighting eachother because of all these time shifts caused by crossovers the system efficiency massively goes up... massively!

Everyone has heard “50w in a home is a lot where 50w in a car isn’t much” 
Well guess what .....


----------



## dumdum

oabeieo said:


> the new epique M-mag 7”
> 
> 14.5mm linear one way excursion
> Full copper sleeve
> Triple stack magnets (ferrite neo hybrid)
> Dual voice coil like an XBL but a bit different only that it’s overhung instead of underhung. But it’s basically an XBL idea
> 
> this fvucking thing gets with it oh my goodness.... it does way more then I expected and I had high expectations...
> 
> more almost 5” deep I have a thread with pics on the technical forums ....


XBL2 is a single coil in a dual gap setup not dual split coil like a jbl gti


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## oabeieo

dumdum said:


> XBL2 is a single coil in a dual gap setup not dual split coil like a jbl gti


i know that.... thats Why I said “like”


----------



## oabeieo

So on oct 6,7 I’m redoing my grills , making the rings way way nicer , going to try to do my vynil in back also amd tweeter pods


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## oabeieo

A little different, I’ll be selling the 72s (if anyone wants a cherry set)


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## oabeieo

1st run on these.... sounds mostly the same as the dyn , it’s a snappy little fvcker tho. Definitely has quite superb detail, anti resonance.... i have them barley moving and tons of output. So it’s a sensitive one. The sensitivity seems to be good down low which is rare IME


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## oabeieo

Overall..... about the same as the stevens SA6CS and dyn 8s 

a tiny bit more detail , and realizm is top notch. It sounds like a hi end system (not that it didn’t before, it’s just more obvious now.

worth the price.... eek.... yeah and no

yeah because there really is no other speaker set that can do this quality out of the box, and still has excellent SQ even if a complete rook was tuning.

the 8s are ugly. There hideous looking, but very good sounding.


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## oabeieo

I’ve made a discovery, nobody will believe me.....


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> I’ve made a discovery, nobody will believe me.....


Did you figure out how woman work? Cuz the last guy who figured that out. Died laughing.


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Did you figure out how woman work? Cuz the last guy who figured that out. Died laughing.


nope lol ....

That one will always still be a mystery...


----------



## Mullings

Probably figured out that a simpler system sounds much better that 600 speakers


----------



## Myface

Jscoyne2 said:


> Did you figure out how woman work? Cuz the last guy who figured that out. Died laughing.


I figured out a long time a go how pu**y works. What I can't figure out is what's attached to it! How does that work?


----------



## oabeieo

Myface said:


> I figured out a long time a go how pu**y works. What I can't figure out is what's attached to it! How does that work?





Mullings said:


> Probably figured out that a simpler system sounds much better that 600 speakers


Well it’s a 12ch system, and that’s what most ppl use these days..... i usea sub, 2 sets of bass drivers , a midbass , a midrange and a tweeter. 

so that’s not it 600......but I get what you mean and no it’s not that...

my discovery is based on summing of speakers and the use of signal delay...
what is the most correct thing to do.

i know the answer , and maybe a few others know,... I’ll post it in the technical when I’m ready to reveal it


----------



## oabeieo

Re did my grills , did high gloss black lacquer. Sanded edges and will put metal grill in.


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## oabeieo

1st coat of lacquer , next sand and repeat and then 3 coats of poly


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## oabeieo

Finally making tweeter pods


----------



## bertholomey

oabeieo said:


> Finally making tweeter pods
> View attachment 313092


Very nice! Those M drivers just look cool to me. Looking forward to seeing your pods 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## oabeieo

There very unique..... the 3” has superb detail.... and what’s weird is the detail is from a sorta honky sounding 1.2khz range which would be bad from a horn, but on this it’s nice.

They are open sounding like horns sorta for a radiator. A unique animal. I can’t get over this 3.5”. It’s such a oddball. But just comes together so nice with a 1” (any 1”) dome.


----------



## oabeieo

so this thing about TA I’ve been working on is quite groundbreaking in a new sense of how to setup a car. (At least new to me) 

A hint would be ive been studying TA and it’s effects on the room, because it’s set for a single spot. What it’s doing as a consequence of applying TA to multiple drivers that are closely mounted and it’s 1:4 wave, and the 90° of phase relationship when TA is applied....

Less in more


----------



## bertholomey

oabeieo said:


> so this thing about TA I’ve been working on is quite groundbreaking in a new sense of how to setup a car. (At least new to me)
> 
> A hint would be ive been studying TA and it’s effects on the room, because it’s set for a single spot. What it’s doing as a consequence of applying TA to multiple drivers that are closely mounted and it’s 1:4 wave, and the 90° of phase relationship when TA is applied....
> 
> Less in more


I’m looking forward to hearing more about this 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

The wife did the black lacquer and pained the grills a charcoal color that matches my glove box factory interior paint 

now she’s applying Polyurethane to them

there looking dope AF

here a pic of the paint on dash near radio , the grills are same color


----------



## oabeieo

Still have these from my old comp car from the 90s lol


----------



## bertholomey

oabeieo said:


> The wife did the black lacquer and pained the grills a charcoal color that matches my glove box factory interior paint
> 
> now she’s applying Polyurethane to them
> 
> there looking dope AF
> 
> here a pic of the paint on dash near radio , the grills are same color
> 
> View attachment 313333
> View attachment 313334
> View attachment 313336
> View attachment 313338
> View attachment 313339


She did do a great job! Fortunate to have such a good assistant! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

bertholomey said:


> She did do a great job! Fortunate to have such a good assistant!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


yeah I don’t have the patience for 10days of sanding and spraying over and over.

when I built them last time they looked like a$$. After two years I’m finally doing it nicer, and no more tweeter just sitting on the dash. Lol

she did a set of cornhole boards and did an American flag in stain and did poly over it. It looked awesome. I couldn’t believe how good she did it.

She knows I demo it a lot, so it makes her happy to be a part of the fab. Lol


----------



## oabeieo

Starting to come together


----------



## oabeieo

The charcoal paint matches the beryllium perfect, and the dash color... the pics show it looks darker for some reason. Maybe it’s a tiny bit darker... in the sun they look the same 

it’s coming together,got to finish tweeter pods


----------



## bertholomey

Those look fantastic!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

After messing with my back chamber all afternoon, I got a f/o (fs) of 434hz (trying to get to 630) 

I took up all the airspace in the pod for tweeter , resin is up to the basket! So I can’t take anymore airspace out. So it seems just the basket of the tweeter sealed off would be all the air it needs... f*** tweeter back chambers are tiny tiny!

so to be continued on that, f3 is 2380hz so I did get some extension, dropped fs a ton but I need abit more extension....

I will probably cut the baskets and make the cap longer by about 1/2” is all I need...

i thought the tweeter enclosure would need to be bigger , I was wrong. Wow it takes almost nothing...

anyways, there looking good


----------



## Redliner99

oabeieo said:


> After messing with my back chamber all afternoon, I got a f/o (fs) of 434hz (trying to get to 630)
> 
> I took up all the airspace in the pod for tweeter , resin is up to the basket! So I can’t take anymore airspace out. So it seems just the basket of the tweeter sealed off would be all the air it needs... f*** tweeter back chambers are tiny tiny!
> 
> so to be continued on that, f3 is 2380hz so I did get some extension, dropped fs a ton but I need abit more extension....
> 
> I will probably cut the baskets and make the cap longer by about 1/2” is all I need...
> 
> i thought the tweeter enclosure would need to be bigger , I was wrong. Wow it takes almost nothing...
> 
> anyways, there looking good
> 
> View attachment 313371


So you have 10 speakers up front what frequencies is each playing? Are all of them playing all the time? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Redliner99 said:


> So you have 10 speakers up front what frequencies is each playing? Are all of them playing all the time?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yessir !

so it’s a 5way (4.5way sorta)

18”sundown I’m back plays to 55hz 

epique 7” in Doors plays from dc to 300hz
8wm kicks , 80-250
6wm , 250,1.3k
3.5wm 1.3k-3k
1” 3k-22k


----------



## Jscoyne2

Those grills give me super strong diffraction vibes.

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Those grills give me super strong diffraction vibes.
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


nope... completely transparent. Sound is the same on/off..... the 6.5 is way more on axis then it looks. I tiled the 6.5 in , inside the grill, and the entire teardrop shape that it’s mounted to is also tilted in.

i spend hours with a hot glue gun and my jigs and pillar plastics trying to get everything as much on axis yet allowingit to look mostly off axis and not sticking out. And making sure all my angles matched my design for the 4 axis plan, I missed the mark on the left 3.5 by about 3°... **** I’ll throw everything away now.

as far as the grill opening, nope as well , if you think it’s causing diffraction from the mesh, if that’s what your saying then focal tweeter is the worst of all of it. Maybe I should cut the grill off my utopia tweeters, what shall I use?; perhaps some tin snips.

nice try tho🗯😠

If you think I’m worried about the 90deg off axis angle I’m not. It’s like a tiny tiny bit blocking way way off axis. It’s hardly “diffraction vibes” like so so so hardly... like you and me both know that also.... like let me guess, all speakers that are mounted inside door panel plastics need a „diffraction vibes comment“ ..... let’s scour the forums and talk smack about everyone who “oh no” puts there speakers behind panels.... .... it ruins perfect sound.... give me a f*****g break man....

you should go tell nick the same thing, he is a excellent fabricator, I bet he doesn’t know we have to mount all speakers on top of panels and nothing hidden..... (someone was just excited about there speakers being completely hidden the other day...... who was that) ...... and make sure to let him know he’s been doing it all wrong.... make sure everyone knows there wrong....

I mean, I’ll make sure to go listen another 3mo and fabricate something different.... I mean, I went two years rockin the same grills making dam sure there was no artifacts caused by the grills or the panels, I’ve modded them 3X now and hundreds of tuning session later, and your just now telling me I have diffraction issues.... I must have overlooked something in the last 4 years building this car.... like dam.... I really should have Surface mounted all my speakers...... duh , edge diffraction.... duh ...

I mean, ****, we talk often enough, why start now? Like you’ve seen me build for years now and I would consider you a friend. What gives

you know edge diffraction is almost a complete joke in a car except on maybe a midrange up high. We have to worry about ......1seat!!! Oh no!!!

I’ll pm you about this.....


----------



## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> nope... completely transparent. Sound is the same on/off..... the 6.5 is way more on axis then it looks. I tiled the 6.5 in , inside the grill, and the entire teardrop shape that it’s mounted to is also tilted in.
> 
> i spend hours with a hot glue gun and my jigs and pillar plastics trying to get everything as much on axis yet allowingit to look mostly off axis and not sticking out. And making sure all my angles matched my design for the 4 axis plan, I missed the mark on the left 3.5 by about 3°... **** I’ll throw everything away now.
> 
> as far as the grill opening, nope as well , if you think it’s causing diffraction from the mesh, if that’s what your saying then focal tweeter is the worst of all of it. Maybe I should cut the grill off my utopia tweeters, what shall I use?; perhaps some tin snips.
> 
> nice try tho🗯😠
> 
> If you think I’m worried about the 90deg off axis angle I’m not. It’s like a tiny tiny bit blocking way way off axis. It’s hardly “diffraction vibes” like so so so hardly... like you and me both know that also.... like let me guess, all speakers that are mounted inside door panel plastics need a „diffraction vibes comment“ ..... let’s scour the forums and talk smack about everyone who “oh no” puts there speakers behind panels.... .... it ruins perfect sound.... give me a f*****g break man....
> 
> you should go tell nick the same thing, he is a excellent fabricator, I bet he doesn’t know we have to mount all speakers on top of panels and nothing hidden..... (someone was just excited about there speakers being completely hidden the other day...... who was that) ...... and make sure to let him know he’s been doing it all wrong.... make sure everyone knows there wrong....
> 
> I mean, I’ll make sure to go listen another 3mo and fabricate something different.... I mean, I went two years rockin the same grills making dam sure there was no artifacts caused by the grills or the panels, I’ve modded them 3X now and hundreds of tuning session later, and your just now telling me I have diffraction issues.... I must have overlooked something in the last 4 years building this car.... like dam.... I really should have Surface mounted all my speakers...... duh , edge diffraction.... duh ...
> 
> I mean, ****, we talk often enough, why start now? Like you’ve seen me build for years now and I would consider you a friend. What gives
> 
> you know edge diffraction is almost a complete joke in a car except on maybe a midrange up high. We have to worry about ......1seat!!! Oh no!!!
> 
> I’ll pm you about this.....


You know how sometimes, you have a way of over reacting to things? That's happening right now. It was just a comment. Nothing nefarious.

You've seen the below gif and i do my best to have my speakers not behind grills. I hate grills and every time i've ever seen a tweeter behind a grill with any kind of sharp edge. That edge causes diffraction and helps locate the tweeter. It also messes with the change between on/off axis so its not as smooth between the two. Maybe Dirac can tune it out. Idk. Its just MY install theory. What you and Nick do is up to you. Just sharing my thoughts..cuz huh..we're on a forum.






What Do Roundovers Do?


My most popular Internet post of all time is when I suggested that people try putting their tweeters in spheres. (Improve Your Soundstage for $2 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum) A lot of people have wondered what would happen if they also put their midranges in spheres...




www.diyaudio.com


----------



## Jscoyne2

These were my tweeters the last time i ran tweeters.


----------



## oabeieo

So it was edge diffraction you were talking about. And nope none, that I can hear anyway. I put my money on the inverted dome. Focal sorta through of that, but it makes these tweeters have different energy patterns at different axis es.

when I had it resting on the dash I had made a small wave guide for it, that was because it was reflecting off the windshield but that was also before I made these pods. These push the tweeters forward almost 5 inches from where I had them, that is a ton. Where they’re at now that problem is not a thing hence I incorporated that into my design. They originally wanted them tucked away in the corner, it didn’t work out. 

I originally thought the same thing when I saw this 3” tweeter with a huge faceplate and no waveguide...

During my initial testing I realized that there is a little bit more energy directly on axis which usually is not the case usually you can get 10 to 15° before you start to lose energy. That’s why my drivers one is pointed directly at my left ear in the passenger one is pointed directly at my right ear... my pods have different angles, and that is part of the design because of this Tweeter.

these ones at a little bit strange in the fact that usually I would tip the left one in the same as it would make the left stage deeper because the right stage is a different path length. these ones not so much.

the other day you amd mic were like ganging up on me for an install I no longer have, although all the things that were trying to be discredited, I was like duh, just do this and that’s not an issue... nobody heard my reply, and it went completely ignored. I was the one who did upper horns and got them to work right. They just didn’t play that low. But having the mid right next door it was a non issue.

I took that as sorta intimidating. And there’s been a couple other times that I felt that they were just remarks made that were a little bit mean..and direction was pointed right at me. As if I was wrong.

I have been doing audio since most ppl were in diapers, I definitely like to break the rules, amd show it can be done sometimes.... because cars acoustics are freaky and somethings can be mitigated with dsp..... now days at least..... is it ideal , no. But can still have excellent sound quality and do things never before possible... yes there’s costs to this , for example if you want to know what’s really wrong with my install, my kick panels are too small and they’re vented into the sub dash. The vent tunes them at 111 Hz and they definitely have a ring to them that I have had to make an exotic SIR filter to get them to perform and sounds just as if they were in infinite baffle. But there was a cost again what did I pay for that?: I only get about 1/3 the output usable output then I would if I really did have infinite baffle. They don’t get loud. That sort of kind of brings into why I have two other sets of mid bass. So overall the system gets very loud, and the kick panels sure you make the stage extremely deep especially deep male vocals. They’re pushed way far back and I freaking love it!

The tweeter pods, they don’t have any diffraction problems, and like I said I’m pretty sure it’s part of the design of the dome. But I can’t honestly tell you why I don’t have that problem I just simply don’t

When I had the Stevens tweeters yes they did have better dispersion they had a little horn on the Tweeter. But I promise you the sound absolutely fantastic and I don’t localized them whatsoever


----------



## oabeieo

Having a wide soundstage was not part of my design goal. It’s wide enough, my design goal was for it to sound like I have a set of bookshelves in front of me.. I want this sound to be coming from in front of me and I want all the instruments placed exactly where they’re supposed to be in the soundstage, with no errors in that aspect.

having the speakers up high in the door would’ve made a much wider soundstage and having them pointed at me more absolutely would’ve been way wider but that’s not what I’m wanting I want it to be easy to listen to, a simple left right and center and everything near field and for field to be easily identifiable

I am not after the immersive sound that is the opposite of my design goal


----------



## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> These were my tweeters the last time i ran tweeters.


I bet that that sounded really good, although incorporating that to a mid range would’ve had more disastrous problems and worrying about a little bit of edge diffraction. There’s no way you were within a quarter wave to the mid.

I think that what made me mad is the way that you said your comment it came off like a little bit mean. it’s usually the one liners that people misunderstand

last week I got in an argument with Andy from audio frog, he tried using a one-liner on me and used the word wrong in his half sentence. it came off mean it came off that he was trying to pick a part what I said and neglected to read in the entirety of what I originally said and I ended up making him look stupid for saying that which I didn’t intend to do I don’t intend to do that to anybody, but I will absolutely stick up for some thing if I know it to be true. If I am unaware of some thing and I’m sticking up for it , then I’m simply unaware. But I think I have just enough experience now to not make myself look stupid because believe me I have many times on this form in the past many many many times


----------



## Jscoyne2

Mic and I weren't ganging up on you. I'm just really lazy these days and I generally don't reply to an entire response. Or sometimes I'll ask a question or start a thread and let others discuss because I want to see what others say. You two are horn experts. I just asked and watched the pros talk. Not ignoring, just observing. 

I'm glad those focals work out for you. I might try my hand at them one day. 

Remember when I was cutting into my old Camry? When I had those crazy thick foam doors and dash mat made of 1" thick melamine foam and all the other acoustic treatments I made?

I did a ton of reading on reverb and decay rate on frequencies.(some of the Magic Bus stuff sounds so good because he got the decay rate of all his frequencies to be more in line with a larger room.) A ton of reading on initial and secondary reflections. Late reflections and how they give us depth which is what rear fill does. 

Like I went hard on the complicated stuff and it really changed my mindset of how I view installs. I am alllll about integration with the body panels and smooth corners and avoiding reflections/diffractions. 

I just see soo many really good installs and people just place their tweeters somewhere, do a round of sweeps, place it somewhere else. Do a round of sweeps. And then keep repeating it until they find a freq response that isn't absolutely atrocious from reflections. 

I almost never see actual real waveguides tested or diffraction experiments tried. It's more , oh this position has the least amount of comb filtering. Guess I'll roll with that because I had a DSP. 

I was trained on my car audio basics from a very old pro from the 80s so it's like INSTALL should be the absolute focus on sound quality and then let the DSP do the work after. 

And honestly, it probably doesn't matter. Are some filters even audible on some freq? Maybe? Does diffraction matter in a car? Maybe. Is anything I'm anal about really matter? Maybe. Maybe not. 

Also, I sat Brian Mitchell way far back because that's how people do it in competition. I don't listen that way and I'm pretty tall. I realized that being close to the dash let the horns load right and the stage truly does sound different closer than farther. It's just a horn thing. 

But I do stand by my statement that the cars that beat me every year, generally sound worse. It's just how I feel. 

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2

The Camry had really deep footwells. Like stupid deep. So I could move my seat back super far and it didn't change the dispersion pattern of the horns to my ears by THAT much. My current car is the exact opposite. 

The only person I see who does waveguides is Patrick and he never finishes a build or competes so he's more of an interesting outlier. 

There's just so much focus on Dirac and Helix and upmixing and cool tech on Diyma these days that I think some fundamentals and actual acoustic wave theories have been forgotten about. 

But it's fine. Because I have plans :3

Also I get pretty mad at comps because we have ONE a year here in Oregon so I don't get much chance to iterate or try different things and see how they rate. So if I **** up. It matters

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Okay I love you again  

so I totally agree! Placement is king over dsp! I’m allll about let’s do both!

I did kicks, I did do my homework and experimenting and trial and error. I did find what I am after , although the stevens components do sound better then the focal.... I’m just sayin. No joke either. The sa6 is a bad ass set.... the focal is good , very good and has unprecedented detail. Just doesn’t have that horn like sound, which we all know comes from efficiency and waveguides mostly and other speaker design aspects of course.

So I just thought you were being mean... sorry.... I love mic, he’s a frikkin stud. But he surely never heard my car with on dash horns and midbass on dash with it. It had excellent staging amd imaging. It had problems, yes, but it was an easy fix. I just didn’t get to use the horn where it’s fun.
It drives me nuts that he doesn’t acknowledge that. But it might be a thing about brand protection which I am all about with Eric’s stuff. I would never recommend using any of his products that way there not meant.... I’m just an oddball. So yeah , I can’t be mad at him for not acknowledge that.... so yeah I was left feeling like I was being ganged up on 

You Camry was dope man.... I couldn’t believe the extent of what you did for sound. You inspired me a ton, I absolutely loved that car. And I didn’t have to listen to it to know it was bad ass..... I’ve done horns in a Camry and I know especially with Dirac ..... **** that was a bad ass car


----------



## oabeieo

So just went on a listen...... the dash pods are definitely pushing on the 3.5 and horn loading them a little, it’s beneficial so far, it’s helping actually get things to move forward... just making things sound a little different, need to retune and accommodate for that change.

it’s sounding good.... the 1krange seems smoother. The tweeter pod is working great. I can hear it reacting on the back chamber.... back chamber is still too big .


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## oabeieo

Ahhh much better


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## oabeieo

Got the tweeter back chamber super tiny now .... I filled the pod with resin all the way up to the back of the tweeter, so just the sides are the airspace... I stuffed with rock wool...... fs now 489..... f3 2226... 

I can’t fill it anymore.... I’m going to have to use maybe modeling clay and stuff the sides a little 

put the black rings back on Tweets also.... pic shows them off , I just was messing w them


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## Jscoyne2

Alright. I've honestly never read this whole thread. Just small parts here and there. Tomorrow I'm gonna sit down and read it all. Anything you want me to keep in mind while I do? Loll

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> Alright. I've honestly never read this whole thread. Just small parts here and there. Tomorrow I'm gonna sit down and read it all. Anything you want me to keep in mind while I do? Loll
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


don’t read the whole thing there’s been a lot of evolution since this thread started
Lol 

It goes back a few years and there’s a lot of stuff that’s incorrect, it’s just the last 12 months that really things have come together


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## oabeieo

Did a full-blown retune..... 

This time optimized my crossovers for the driver seat , got them flat at the seat not the speaker ....

fir works fine ..... for this location....

So far very good results

Almost ready to announce my TA thing... I will have to do it in a video


----------



## oabeieo

Everyone on earth should have Dirac live in there car.... everyone! It’s that good. What are u waiting for


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## oabeieo

Posting up my time alignment video it’s going to be embedded into the rephase video I’ll post in the rephrase thread in a little bit ,
It’s 7:20 PM mountain time right now and it’s uploading onto YouTube so give me till 9:30 PM mountain time and I’ll have it up

It’s the big reveal, get ready to change your systems radically... improve imaging and get rid of those cancellations and würd peaks in your midrange!

you definitely hate it when you have that one frequency that pulls your stage to one side or other ..... tired of your soundstage sounding like it’s 3” from your face?; then watch this video and get some ideas..... it’s absolutely contrary to what you’ve learned. It’s a spoiler to the technical video I’ll do.

cheers 🥂


----------



## SiW80

I get the TA thing if all the speakers are on the dash but what about 2 way (door mid and dash tweeter)? 

Assume 3 way with mid and tweeter on dash would apply for your TA method. 

When I use the tape measure I measure to my ears or headrest (near enough to ear) but not my nose, so will try further forward next time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

SiW80 said:


> I get the TA thing if all the speakers are on the dash but what about 2 way (door mid and dash tweeter)?
> 
> Assume 3 way with mid and tweeter on dash would apply for your TA method.
> 
> When I use the tape measure I measure to my ears or headrest (near enough to ear) but not my nose, so will try further forward next time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dash and doors are different, but also how low is that mid playing.... a lot of things to try when setting up and listening to how well the crossovers are summing

but here’s the thing LF is so so so so so much more forgiving.... you can be entire milliseconds off and it still sounds great....

i haven’t found the exact number but I want to, it’s somewhere around the wavelength between 1k and 1.6k that things become much more loose under that frequencie.....

for example 2k is fairly long frequency when playing next to a tweeter. And that tweeter definitely plays into 2k audible.....

But you definitely want to do your doors separate with correct values, I’m just talking speakers that are already close together


----------



## addissimo

oabeieo said:


> Posting up my time alignment video it’s going to be embedded into the rephase video I’ll post in the rephrase thread in a little bit ,
> It’s 7:20 PM mountain time right now and it’s uploading onto YouTube so give me till 9:30 PM mountain time and I’ll have it up
> 
> It’s the big reveal, get ready to change your systems radically... improve imaging and get rid of those cancellations and würd peaks in your midrange!
> 
> you definitely hate it when you have that one frequency that pulls your stage to one side or other ..... tired of your soundstage sounding like it’s 3” from your face?; then watch this video and get some ideas..... it’s absolutely contrary to what you’ve learned. It’s a spoiler to the technical video I’ll do.
> 
> cheers 🥂


I'm excited to see this video! Where can we find it?


----------



## oabeieo

addissimo said:


> I'm excited to see this video! Where can we find it?


i deleted it! Because I was drinking in the video and you tube said it’s only for adults abe took it.... at first I thought it was copyright but it wasn’t

I’ll remake it


----------



## addissimo

oabeieo said:


> i deleted it! Because I was drinking in the video and you tube said it’s only for adults abe took it.... at first I thought it was copyright but it wasn’t
> 
> I’ll remake it


Nanny state.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> i deleted it! Because I was drinking in the video and you tube said it’s only for adults abe took it.... at first I thought it was copyright but it wasn’t
> 
> I’ll remake it


You should make a cliff notes post until you have the time to make a new video =]


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## oabeieo

I unbridged my doors , so now there at 2oh stereo instead of 8oh bridged, so they getting 175w instead of 230w 

the other two channels I added a minidsp ambio/rears dsp, so far so good, envelopment is better but I sure don’t like all the different arrivals, messes with the sharpness of the fronts.

I kinda just don’t like rears, I need a true rear processor, something that I can program the reverb, two tap, chorus, effects myself. It would have to be able to program every parameter. Extract L-R and everything I want.

i was looking at maybe this eventide H900r dsp ....... looks promising


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## oabeieo

Envelopment...... 

A whole topic that is ever so important to good sounding system,

Off axis pillars are horrible for envelopment.


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## oabeieo

The system has has good envelopment must have side speakers or speaker up high in the doors.....

an alternative would be some rears with L minus R processing with about 10 ms added..... boy what a way to **** up your impulse response.

I think I’ve come to a couple different conclusions

you’ve got to have one primary set of speakers like a four-way or a three-way that has a flat response as a baseline

and then some additional speakers that are just simply out of time on purpose, and some processing.

it seems the only way if you want to use pillars for mid range and highs

maybe the sail and upper door is the better location.... I would say about mid door is perfect, for fronts
and then the tweeter probably maybe even the kick panel if you want a system that is truly enveloping without processing 

i’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to get my system to have good envelopment and it’s good now I had to add rears and **** things up to the extreme to get it to do what IR looks like garbage, once I turn off my rears and doors it’s a perfect impulse....

But I’ve spread things out over about 12 ms just to get it to have somewhat immersive


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## oabeieo

It it seems to me the tricks only work up to about 800 Hz...... otherwise you have to absolutely have to use proper locations that support envelopment


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## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> The system has has good envelopment must have side speakers or speaker up high in the doors.....
> 
> an alternative would be some rears with L minus R processing with about 10 ms added..... boy what a way to **** up your impulse response.
> 
> I think I’ve come to a couple different conclusions
> 
> you’ve got to have one primary set of speakers like a four-way or a three-way that has a flat response as a baseline
> 
> and then some additional speakers that are just simply out of time on purpose, and some processing.
> 
> it seems the only way if you want to use pillars for mid range and highs
> 
> maybe the sail and upper door is the better location.... I would say about mid door is perfect, for fronts
> and then the tweeter probably maybe even the kick panel if you want a system that is truly enveloping without processing
> 
> i’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to get my system to have good envelopment and it’s good now I had to add rears and **** things up to the extreme to get it to do what IR looks like garbage, once I turn off my rears and doors it’s a perfect impulse....
> 
> But I’ve spread things out over about 12 ms just to get it to have somewhat immersive


Isn't that quite literally the point of rear fill? To give a pseudo-room reflection, which by its nature messes up impulse response?


----------



## pwnt by pat

Yes. You also need more like 25ms delay and to cut the output by something like 10db. When playing in conjunction with the fronts you should not be able to localize anything from the rear. It's a psuedo reverb channel with the stereo signal processed out 

It also can help too run to flip the polarity on the rears, so left is r-l and right is l-r.


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## oabeieo

pwnt by pat said:


> Yes. You also need more like 25ms delay and to cut the output by something like 10db. When playing in conjunction with the fronts you should not be able to localize anything from the rear. It's a psuedo reverb channel with the stereo signal processed out
> 
> It also can help too run to flip the polarity on the rears, so left is r-l and right is l-r.


25ms is a bit high , it should (for a car) be closer to about 10ms..... it would be where you listen and find where the summation works best,

some highs and midrange would have psychoacoustic effects and promote certain frequencies more then others based on how they sum.

I know a lot of ppl on this forum have said 25ms (or far enough out that the brain sees it as separate sound sources. That would be for like you said , pseudo reverb, or late reflection sounds. I’m taking about something different 

mid you have headphones or side speakers , you’ll have enveloping sound and pick up the effects and reverb the recording engineer wanted you to hear

What I’m taking about is using rears and L-R to help with envelopment. So we can’t break away from what you hear as a single sound. So between 10-11ms is choice for the size of a car with highly reflective environment.


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## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Isn't that quite literally the point of rear fill? To give a pseudo-room reflection, which by its nature messes up impulse response?


yeah it sure does lol
But definitely fills in where needed


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## oabeieo

weit edit ( I was sloshed last nite)


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## oabeieo

weit edit ( I was sloshed last nite)


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## oabeieo

weit edit ( I was sloshed last nite)


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## oabeieo

Got the 3 ways on my dash sounding even better now .....

building a super cool fir today..... it’s sounding so good even with Dirac off I’m going to go back to OpenDrc and do a rephase room correction....

i hope tge excess phase between 200-1k are acceptable and readable lol .... it sounds like the linear crossovers are extra happy with the dash 3 ways very close together..... the system is summing excellent.... I couldn’t be happier


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## vactor

Myface said:


> I figured out a long time a go how pu**y works. What I can't figure out is what's attached to it! How does that work?


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## oabeieo

vactor said:


>


lmao!!! I love it ....


----------



## oabeieo

The drive home tonite was superb 

i tuned 3 cars today... a long long long day of tuning , I did two Vx systems and a audio control system dsp

after all that , I got in my car to go home and I was so happy how my car is sounding..... it sounds so real... like the ambiance and the recording just come alive so much now. And I am dead set on flat target is not a choice, it’s the only way to get that... it really is , flat from 80-20k like dead flat .... all the way through!!!


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## Jscoyne2

3 cars in a day? Jesus.

I'd have a hard time if anyone ever asked me to professionally tune their car for money. Like yea I know what I'm doing but it's Never good enough for me. Highs aren't right. Sub locates behind. One song has one high pitched spot. ID BE LIKE NO YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAR BACK. IM NOT DONE. 

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> 3 cars in a day? Jesus.
> 
> I'd have a hard time if anyone ever asked me to professionally tune their car for money. Like yea I know what I'm doing but it's Never good enough for me. Highs aren't right. Sub locates behind. One song has one high pitched spot. ID BE LIKE NO YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAR BACK. IM NOT DONE.
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


Hahaha …. I used to be like that , and believe me what actually happens is the customer and your co workers start to say to themselves after all day of tuning …….” Does he know what he doing” 

plus , the JL only has output eq. 10 bands , it doesn’t have enough to do more then about 25min of work…. They give just enough to get spectrally balanced and that’s it. 

so yeah ….. once you’ve tune a few twks and vx s you’ll be able to do 3 a day…. It’s easy to get through them


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> Hahaha …. I used to be like that , and believe me what actually happens is the customer and your co workers start to say to themselves after all day of tuning …….” Does he know what he doing”
> 
> plus , the JL only has output eq. 10 bands , it doesn’t have enough to do more then about 25min of work…. They give just enough to get spectrally balanced and that’s it.
> 
> so yeah ….. once you’ve tune a few twks and vx s you’ll be able to do 3 a day…. It’s easy to get through them


10 bands. For the whole system? Disgusting.

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> 10 bands. For the whole system? Disgusting.
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


yeah , 10 bands for each output…. That’s it

no input , no global eq , output eq only

it’s pretty much saying it isn’t meant for active systems. That’s why JL audio isn’t high end. They have some very good pieces, the HD amps are excellent, there dsp is just lacking. And what sucks is the system architecture the dspwon’t allow for anything to be upgraded. Tun4 just came out and it’s a rearrangement and a ui for the tun mic and tuning. Dsp stuff is still the same

I did an install once and looped the output of the pre amps outs on a 800/8vx back I to the input so I could do driver eq then global eq… 
at the cost of a conversion, and only for one set of speakers (tweeters)


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## Jscoyne2

oabeieo said:


> yeah , 10 bands for each output…. That’s it
> 
> no input , no global eq , output eq only
> 
> it’s pretty much saying it isn’t meant for active systems. That’s why JL audio isn’t high end. They have some very good pieces, the HD amps are excellent, there dsp is just lacking. And what sucks is the system architecture the dspwon’t allow for anything to be upgraded. Tun4 just came out and it’s a rearrangement and a ui for the tun mic and tuning. Dsp stuff is still the same
> 
> I did an install once and looped the output of the pre amps outs on a 800/8vx back I to the input so I could do driver eq then global eq…
> at the cost of a conversion, and only for one set of speakers (tweeters)


I mean. Input eq has always been a bit weird(non-applicable) to me. I guess if you're using oem systems that don't have a flat response to begin with, then input Eq is absolutely necessary. 

Global Eq is nice for final shaping but it's still managable with matching filters on the output Eq. Still 10bands on each output is nothing to scoff at. 

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Jscoyne2 said:


> I mean. Input eq has always been a bit weird(non-applicable) to me. I guess if you're using oem systems that don't have a flat response to begin with, then input Eq is absolutely necessary.
> 
> Global Eq is nice for final shaping but it's still managable with matching filters on the output Eq. Still 10bands on each output is nothing to scoff at.
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk


Input eq is what Dirac is in the 8x12dl , it’s just another eq , but it should be used as a global eq….. (room eq) when dsp is setup like that

ideally you want , driver eq for getting driver responses corrected with crossovers off for crossovers to sum properly and drivers to behave, then some sort of gloab Eq weather it be a way to adjust all the outputs simultaneously (like a helix) or an input eq… for the room correction and correcting the final sums of all the drivers as a whole. The global EQ is the most important one. For obvious reasons, like shaping and making your Target 

every processor has its own methodology based on what they give you, the helix and mosconi are both designed very well for a minimum phase DSP: it gives you flexibility and lots of options

minidsp does things a little differently but you can still skin the cat just as effectively.

The input EQ just affects everything, it does behave a little bit differently and sound a little bit differently if you’re used to using outputs only


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## oabeieo

indeed it is


----------



## bertholomey

Dude! That rocks! I bet you have fun in there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## oabeieo

Yeah I hope it’s fun, makes work fun, keeps everyone having a good day n stuff 

Doing backup cameras in sloppy wet snow water kinda sucks , and getting on your back in some ****box car driver floorboard that is dirt at muddy and stinks like wet dirty socks is no fun…..

it takes the edge off for sure


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## oabeieo

Got the shop speakers playing with minidsp flex as the head unit 

wow !!! Hot dam it’s bad ass

i want to use some 2” exit horns now!!! These 1” horns aren’t enough, oh boy itwould sound so good to get horns to play to 500hz ….


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## oabeieo

The shop system sounds so so so good….

got it tuned 17pt Dirac tune
Full blown pretune… it’s badass 







- YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




youtube.com










- YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




youtube.com


----------



## bertholomey

oabeieo said:


> The shop system sounds so so so good….
> 
> got it tuned 17pt Dirac tune
> Full blown pretune… it’s badass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - YouTube
> 
> 
> Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> youtube.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - YouTube
> 
> 
> Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> youtube.com


Very cool Andy! A really fun place to work!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

bertholomey said:


> Very cool Andy! A really fun place to work!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


the old shop system was so lame…. It had 4 old pioneer 6x9s off a old Kenwood deck…. No subs… like for reals….. andy MF slay can’t roll like that….

it’s so awesome…. What’s crazy is when we turn it up , no one really wants to talk too much so work gets done. So it’s not only more productive, but fun…. We listened to some armada house edm today and my goodness those horns sound good…… the detail isn’t some fuzzy thing that you try to pick out like in a car system. The detail stands out… I wish I wish I wish my car was 2600 sq ft … lol 😆


----------



## oabeieo

The horns in the shop sound so good, I think I want to do horns again in the fit….

this time for sure a be compression driver…

i have these with the 2408h crossed at 1.7k LR2
And the B&C10” plays flat to 2.6k so crossed at 1.7k is nice , the horn plays to 800hz , so crossed at 1.7k has all the acoustic responce in the crossover.

i want this sound in my car…. The utopias are nice, but these horns are even nicer. The car environment is such a drag


----------



## oabeieo

iPhone mic…. Not bad….. but at the same time 
Horrible…..

i Wonder of measurement mics are equally bad

anyway went on a drive….. jammed out





- YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




youtube.com


----------



## naiku

oabeieo said:


> The shop system sounds so so so good….
> 
> got it tuned 17pt Dirac tune
> Full blown pretune… it’s badass


Man, this would be fun to do something like this in my shop once it's complete. Especially as my home office is going to end up in there, not quite as big as your 2,600sq ft though, I'll have closer to 1,100sq ft to work with. Most likely at the moment I'm just going to hook up a pair of powered monitors I have in there, but maybe down the road a little something better.


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## oabeieo

naiku said:


> Man, this would be fun to do something like this in my shop once it's complete. Especially as my home office is going to end up in there, not quite as big as your 2,600sq ft though, I'll have closer to 1,100sq ft to work with. Most likely at the moment I'm just going to hook up a pair of powered monitors I have in there, but maybe down the road a little something better.


all my techs love it, I got a demo minidspflex with Dirac and I used that (which would make a killer head unit) and a bunch of amps

the flex as a head works excellent…..

A flex as a source, going digital into a 8x12 would be stellar 

could do the method in 8x12 and finish it off andbuild a target in flex after….. i Just need to figure out how to make steering wheel controls work and I’ll do it…

The shop sy stem tho…. Lol it sounds killer…. Gets loud , simple 3way, and sounds way better then the car


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## oabeieo

So ….. saw a car with roon and a car pc 
I kinda want that ….. there’s a whole bunch of sampling tricks it can do for different sound profiles….

also it has Multichannel ifft convolution via impulse… not as good as fft convolution but it works just fine….. and unlike jriver I think this hq player allows one sample rate fir… a high sample rate .

i need to figure out how to make on do swc and act like a deck.


----------



## Bikey

For the SWC to computer (USB) translation. JoyCon EXR or EXD, depending on your car. 
Also works with Raspberri Pi / MoodeAudio (with some setup work), and can work with an Android device as well, and you can add the button signal generator to also interface with a car radio.


https://www.cartft.com/en/catalog/il/1738


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## oabeieo

Bikey said:


> For the SWC to computer (USB) translation. JoyCon EXR or EXD, depending on your car.
> Also works with Raspberri Pi / MoodeAudio (with some setup work), and can work with an Android device as well, and you can add the button signal generator to also interface with a car radio.
> 
> 
> https://www.cartft.com/en/catalog/il/1738


dood!!!!! That is cool. Thank you! 🤩🤩🤩

it looks like it does data swc , mine is resistive…. ??? Any ideas


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## Bikey

The EXD can handle digital and resistive controls (and control the Button Signal Generator (BSG) add on). This is the one to get.
The EXR can only handle resistive SWC controls and cannot control a BSG. Probably not the one to get, unless you are 100% sure of never wanting the EXD's capabilities.
I'm going to get an EXD for my 2017 Outback (resistive SWC), so I can control the RaspPi and Joying Android headunit, and use the RPi to send IR signals to a miniDSP based on the SWC inputs, and also use the Sony RM-X4S controller as a secondary remote (it's my all-time favorite remote control device). 
I'm trying to make what would be a complicated setup (2 source units, volume controlled by third unit, etc) easy to use via either SWC or the RM-X4S.


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## CrimsonCountry

Bikey said:


> For the SWC to computer (USB) translation. JoyCon EXR or EXD, depending on your car.
> Also works with Raspberri Pi / MoodeAudio (with some setup work), and can work with an Android device as well, and you can add the button signal generator to also interface with a car radio.
> 
> 
> https://www.cartft.com/en/catalog/il/1738


 I've been using the Joycon module for years for my Cell and CarPC. Love it! I almost bought the EXD (mine is the EXR) but haven't needed it yet since my 2006 is still resistive.


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## CrimsonCountry

oabeieo said:


> So ….. saw a car with roon and a car pc
> I kinda want that ….. there’s a whole bunch of sampling tricks it can do for different sound profiles….
> 
> also it has Multichannel ifft convolution via impulse… not as good as fft convolution but it works just fine….. and unlike jriver I think this hq player allows one sample rate fir… a high sample rate .
> 
> i need to figure out how to make on do swc and act like a deck.


So you're back on Roon, huh? ..and a CarPC? Lol. As I said, I love it for the interface alone. It's so good on a touchscreen for the car with its simple layout and quick searches. Not to the mention other options for signal manipulation.


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## oabeieo

CrimsonCountry said:


> So you're back on Roon, huh? ..and a CarPC? Lol. As I said, I love it for the interface alone. It's so good on a touchscreen for the car with its simple layout and quick searches. Not to the mention other options for signal manipulation.


yeah after seeing it in this car I was jel

i really like it a lot …..once running it looked decent to navigate and use

it wasn’t too horrible, just need to hot spot instead of plug in

no big deal


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## oabeieo

Bikey said:


> The EXD can handle digital and resistive controls (and control the Button Signal Generator (BSG) add on). This is the one to get.
> The EXR can only handle resistive SWC controls and cannot control a BSG. Probably not the one to get, unless you are 100% sure of never wanting the EXD's capabilities.
> I'm going to get an EXD for my 2017 Outback (resistive SWC), so I can control the RaspPi and Joying Android headunit, and use the RPi to send IR signals to a miniDSP based on the SWC inputs, and also use the Sony RM-X4S controller as a secondary remote (it's my all-time favorite remote control device).
> I'm trying to make what would be a complicated setup (2 source units, volume controlled by third unit, etc) easy to use via either SWC or the RM-X4S.


this is awesome…. I’m going to start looking at parts immediately. 🤩🤩🤩


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## oabeieo

Had a mess up on an 8x12DL at work for a. Custer where levels and delays were not imported into the 8x 12DL .
I had to re-measure to fix it but it also gave me an idea…

When I listened to the Dirac tune with no delays and levels , I kinda liked it… and liked how I had freedom to do my own delays and levels .

I wasn’t staging for crap , left was way too loud , no vocal , but as soon as I started playing manual adjustments it came into place really nice

and it gave me an 💡 idea

so I did the same thing in 3.3.1 in my car with my DDRC 22. Turned off levels and delays ram a Dirac tune. I used the 19 measurement algorithm for two seats with the 1st being normal for my seat…. With levels and delays turned off I don’t know what it did with that measurement besides adding it to the rest of them as an average

I listened and fiddled with levels and delays on my speakers and what I suspected was true. It only corrects the impulse and the phase as is. It does nothing as far as left and right correction, so it seems like it only does sums. So no comb filtering from unequal distance correction….
it’s it’s a bare bones FR and phase correction…

so that got me thinkin

so I did a pre tune….. I time aligned everything to have as common distance as possible and only used average numbers for everything…and averaged it from the drivers seat vs. the passenger seat….

ran Dirac and did no delays and no levels in the ddrc22….

after Dirac I added a cascade of filters to make the driver seat and passenger seat have as close to phase alignment as possible (measurable) I worked hard on 150hz to 1khz and got L and R to have inverse as possible phase behavior and only working in sums and levels.

i ended up using a butt18 cascade at 20k on all of the right side to put everything at 90 and measured an acoustic difference of 67 deg to 110 ish degrees. So most of the 150-1k ish area fell between that in both seats

doing that and playing with levels every step and listening And adjusting and listening over and over…. I did it again and again taking measurements in REW from driver seat and passanger seat and comparing FR and phase… slowing making adjustments driver by driver (set) and with everything and pairs finding what’s happening and how it’s summing and changing each drivers fir filter to the phase angle I wanted and how I want it to sum in pairs and as a whole

it wasn’t bad , I only needed about 60 measurements per side to get it right and about 250 measurements all together said and done….. 

i have a 2 seat tune that has excellent imaging in both seats! It’s almost as good as a single seat Dirac tune on driver side and passenger side sounds good and has a solid center placement. The passenger side I made some compromises of course, like the 265hz peak I needed to keep on passenger side so that the driver side is more balanced…. I also turned down the left tweeter 1db so from passenger side the right tweeter is a tiny bit more and slightly louder. No so much that it ruins the sound or annoying at all….

overall the SQ is excellent!

also on my door midbass that plays from 65-350 on the right and 65-225 on the left , those door midbass also have no delays against eachother

and the kick panel midbass has a .4ms delay (.2 on each side) compared to the doors.

so this time, no horns, and with Dirac a 2 seat tune.

keep in mind my dash locations Midrange drivers and tweeters are .4ms PLD and my kick panels are .35ms PLD while the doors are 1.35ms PLD
the dash 6s are .9ms PLD

so I used all the drivers that are below .5ms and focused those to the 250-1k target for imaging
And the ones beyond that are used also but have some mild delays….

Pretty dam cool…. So it’s back to a 2 seat car and ot sounds excellent….

mid someone water to do this with there Dirac you will need a midrange location that is less then .6ms to pull ot off….and .6 is a stretch. You really need like .5ms PLD if possible….

but it’s really cool….. my passenger side PLD is slightly higher by .15ms on average as the car isn’t symmetrical. Honda gave the driver more room a d the driver seat is located closer to the middle of car… most cars are like this. The passenger seat sits closer to the door then driver seat sits to driver door….. i am pretty sure they do this for driver priority comfort and controls and pedals…..

Anyway I told my wife I want to tune all day for Father’s Day…. It took all day….. by 11pm it was pretty dam sweet……. (Okay it’s kick ass) and now both seats sound really nice..


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## oabeieo

Oh and before I forget , I also have a minidsp center/ rears processor with analog in and it’s split off the rcas from my doors midbass channel 

The rears have stevens SA6 drivers from 65-350R and 65-200L and I’m using L-R. I had 10ms before, now I’m using the delay as a 10ms average, but the right side is delayed in a little to help the passenger seat have better imaging

even tho it’s 9ms difference from the front, 9ms is barely a cycle at some frequencies it plays…. It definitely added that last little bit. And it’s turned way down compared to front…. Can’t hear them playing but they have a huge effect of the fronts

so I steered the 150hz low end vocal from passenger seat right into the center…. Way off time but it works


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## oabeieo

After a week now with 2 seat tune I’ve noticed the center is slightly left for me and perfect for passanger 

I still like it very much 

It’s really cool when me n my girl both have good imaging…… I can finally let her drive lol


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## oabeieo

I’m doing dipole dash speakers… 3 ways fully on axis , utopia Ms and open back firing into upper dash area, speakers firing at me not tilted to center of car. (Super super wide stage) 

Did some testing and it’s like nothing else I’ve ever hear in a car

with the kicks to support the low midbass , holy mother of amplifiers! Ultra deep stage that’s wide and way outside the car AND no reflections at all before the 1st wave 😲😮🤯🤩

This will be build 4 on this car stay tuned


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## Flygts

Can’t wait to hear and see it!


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## oabeieo

Flygts said:


> Can’t wait to hear and see it!


thanks , heya we need to tune your car ….

You have a dsp amp corrsct ?


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## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> I’m doing dipole dash speakers… 3 ways fully on axis , utopia Ms and open back firing into upper dash area, speakers firing at me not tilted to center of car. (Super super wide stage)
> 
> Did some testing and it’s like nothing else I’ve ever hear in a car
> 
> with the kicks to support the low midbass , holy mother of amplifiers! Ultra deep stage that’s wide and way outside the car AND no reflections at all before the 1st wave 😲😮🤯🤩
> 
> This will be build 4 on this car stay tuned


Yeah, Wana see a pic to see what you mean exactly.
All drivers pointed right at you on axis. Wouldn't that do some funkiness to the power distribution around the car? Or are you playing them all way below beaming, so they're Omni throughout their entire range?


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## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Yeah, Wana see a pic to see what you mean exactly.
> All drivers pointed right at you on axis. Wouldn't that do some funkiness to the power distribution around the car? Or are you playing them all way below beaming, so they're Omni throughout their entire range?


All the way below beaming

3ways , 6” play from 125-500 +/- (then a custom filter that matches to the mid that will be a lot of testing to get the actual crossover point) 

the 3.5” 500+\- to 2500-3500

and tweets up

the 3.5 M sounds so incredibly good on axis, the forward lobe can’t be the same shape as a typical exponential cone driver…. It doesn’t have that constant beam around 2-5k area …. Its the driver that will make this work , otherwise I would have to push it a tiny bit off axis like every other speaker would need


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## oabeieo

Maybe maybe a small bridge over the cone of the M3.5 if it doesn’t work like my tests are showing …. But that’s a strong maybe 

it needs to be on axis for dipole to work right


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## oabeieo

There was definitely some of the dipole reflections that were not helping, but definitely a big portion that we’re making the car disappear 

I’m going to have to do some careful listening and testing to find what exactly will need to be filtered out and or further baffleing of one or both mids….

the tweet also will be dipole as the back of the tweeter cone (yes it’s a beryllium cone) is exposed …. That may or may not help …..

definitely the 200-1k range dipole was like magic


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## Flygts

For sure! Yes, I have a dsp amp. Just got some firmware updates. Cameron is coming up on the 22nd to retune. Come join!


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