# Home Theatre Powered Sub



## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

_I'd like to buy a h/t sub and wanna know if anyone has any suggestions for brands

as well, can anyone probide first hand experience regarding this item:

JBL :: Product

Thanks in advance guys!_


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Personally a fan of velodyne.... I have had a pair of uld18's since they were first released and a single powered 12 in the bedroom. Can't tell you the first thing about I Jbl from experience.


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## BumpaD_Z28 (Dec 12, 2011)

That jbl is more of a "dj" / live music sub ... It would be CRAZY loud in a home environment , even if the roomis large !

I run an RBH 1010-SEP  and also their 1266's (12" in each tower)!

~Dave


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Pro audio sub in the house? your neighbors will hate your guts. how big is the room?


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

Jbl's parent company makes solid stuff..... But like stated that's not a ht sub, look at the frequency response.

Velodyne, mirage, rel and numerous others make excellent stuff. I would suggest stoping my a local home audio shop and take a listen to what they have. 

You can also go the DIY route....


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

the sub is infact a pro audio/dj sub.

but, that's not a bad thing...except asthetically I guess.

I've got a psb 12" now and I'm not really that happy with it.

I find that i can hear the speaker reaching it's limit pretty early on...and I don't really push it to an extreme level.

The room is pretty small...20x40. But obviously, you can control the output of the sub...it's not like you have to use it to it's potential every time.

I just want something that goes deep and doesn't reach it's mechanical limit too quick.


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## LS1 Sounds (Dec 12, 2009)

What is your budget? Any cabinet size limitations? Music? Movies? Both?


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## emilime75 (Jan 27, 2011)

The problem with that particular sub is it's frequency response. I'm sure it sounds great for music and has the capability to be very loud if needed, but for HT use it is a bad choice considering it's rated at -10dB at 30 Hz. For HT, you'll want to look at subs that are flat down into the mid or low 20's. The sub I use is an SVS and it's flat down to about 20, and with room gain and EQ I get great output down into the teens...makes for a truly fantastic movie watching experience.

If the price of that JBL is your budget, I'd seriously look at companies like SVS, Epik, Rythmik, HSU, Velodyne... Of course there are others, but these are some of the ones I have experience with. Here's a list of HT sub reviews, you'll find tons of good info about HT subs there Subwoofer Shootout / Subwoofer Roundup - URL lists







prettysweetsounds said:


> _I'd like to buy a h/t sub and wanna know if anyone has any suggestions for brands
> 
> as well, can anyone probide first hand experience regarding this item:
> 
> ...


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

If you are on the DIY side of things and want a real deep ht experience, look at going IB if possible. That's what is finally moving me from my big velo's..... Four Fi IB 18's driven by a big behringer amp. I should be able to reproduce decent content to 10-15hz


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Viggen said:


> Velodyne
> 
> *You can also go the DIY route*....


Get a Velodyne 

I have a WO32 (Decware), with IDMAXES in it 

Whole lot-o-thump


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

We own some of those JBL subs at work, they suck, even for a pro sub. They simply do not get low at all. Sometimes I think -10 at 30 could be an exaggeration.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

Use will be 80% h/t and 20% music.

Thanks for the opinions guys, I'm going to 'pass' on that JBL and look into some of the suggestions a little further

I'd love to do an IB but for the time being I don't have the space required...down the road I could defenitely see that happening though.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

...oh my god...i just looked up the velodyne digital dive plus 18'


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

...ah, almost $5k price tag. Prohibitive. : )


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

The new Dayton HO 18 is getting a lot of interest on AVS. Using a Bash 500 amp should get you in the upper teens. Doing a Dual opposed with a Behringer or Crown with a Mini DSP should be doable under 1200 and get you some great output.

A tuba home theater from Bill Fitzmaurice or F20 design with the single 15 and 300 watts should rock your room for ~500 bucks. 20-100 hertz @120db

Granted I am talking DIY but you will be happy.

Or if you want to spend big money, DIY with the TC LMS-U 18 and a lot of power.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

cubdenno said:


> The new Dayton HO 18 is getting a lot of interest on AVS. Using a Bash 500 amp should get you in the upper teens. Doing a Dual opposed with a Behringer or Crown with a Mini DSP should be doable under 1200 and get you some great output.
> 
> A tuba home theater from Bill Fitzmaurice or F20 design with the single 15 and 300 watts should rock your room for ~500 bucks. 20-100 hertz @120db
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll look into those options. thanks


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## LS1 Sounds (Dec 12, 2009)

The Dayton HO 18 is definitely a good performer with a low price tag. The even newer Stereo Integrity 18" home theater subs are even less expensive, but are not yet shipping (ETA is end of this month). Both have been measured at Data-Bass, and are the only two subs I'm truly considering right now. The Dayton is already being proven as a good performer in a few threads on the AVS Forum, the SI still needs to prove itself to me, once it starts shipping.

If you don't want to DIY, check Newegg for the Klipsch Reference RW-12d. They often have it on sale for ~$299 each, which makes it very popular in multiples. Higher price tags typically bring higher performance, unless you are OK with huge enclosures or big folder horn designs. This is why I asked some of the questions I did earlier. The popular internet direct companies right now are Rythmik (FV-15HP is a personal favorite), Hsu Research, SVS, Epik, Chase Home Theater (CHT, but they may be going out of business), and a relative newcomer is Power Sound Audio.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I've been using one of these for about 10 years now with ZERO issues:

Yamaha YST-SW315


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

has anyone actually had the chance to play around with the JL Audio H/T subs? I actually forgot about them but maybe they're worth a look?


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## LS1 Sounds (Dec 12, 2009)

Gotham and Fathom are very highly regarded, but expensive for their capabilities. The Internet direct companies mentioned above typically offer better bang for the buck.


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## lostthumb (Dec 16, 2005)

I purchased a Rythmik Audio F12 Subwoofer about 6 months ago. Very nice sounding sub with Servo technology. They also sell diy kits.

Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 12" F12


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

While I've yet to hear them....everything that I've read and heard about the HSU Research ULS-15 Dual Drive subs point to them being a dream sub for me...dual sealed 15" subs that can get down to 10 Hz in most rooms: ULS-15 DualDrive Packages

My theater is just getting off the ground. Searching craigslist I found some older Polk RT800i mains, CS400I center for a good price. I have an older Sony for now for power. However, I'm after some Polk f/x500i surrounds, a Denon AVR-2312ci receiver, and a used SVS 20-39pci Sono Tube sub I saw on craigslist also. Once I get it all together combined with the 73" Mitsu DLP I picked up, I will have a major overhall vs the small system I had combined with my previous 50" Plasma. I still have a ways to go.

In the end I want to do a full 7.2 system. I think one sub will be fine for most of the time. However, for the serious movie nights I think a full 7.2 system will knock my socks off. I keep reading how two subs if tuned (room also) right can produce so much more unlocalized and intense bass. I read that a HSU rep stated that even with a high crossover point and the subs behind the listening position in their demo room that you can't tell where the subs are. Turn one sub off and that goes away and the crossover needs to be lowered. 

So for years I always said I wanted a single 15" for home theater...but now I am thinking dual 12's or 15's as my goal. I think anyone looking to spend $1K+ should be considering duals as well....IMO. 

As far as brands SVS, and HSU are high on my list. If I go the DIY duals route I am looking hard at the Dayton Audio Reference and Ultimax subs. Also, the Creative Sound Solutions SDX12(XBL2 motor!) sub when it becomes available...and I guess I need to check out the Stereo Integrity HT subs also!


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

^^I'll look into the hsu's as well.

even if i really really wanted to spend the money on the jl's i can't even find a dealer...


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

LS1 Sounds said:


> If you don't want to DIY, check Newegg for the Klipsch Reference RW-12d. They often have it on sale for ~$299 each, which makes it very popular in multiples.



I picked up 2 of them. They are pretty nice for the price. 350 watt amp with digital controls. A pair of them is plenty for pretty much any size room. TV room in the basement, and they rattle stuff in the attic like crazy. My brother is running 2 of them also. He is real happy with the pair too.


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## Ray21 (Oct 19, 2009)

I've read great reviews on SVS and Hsu subs - SVS gets the nod for extension and SPL for movies but the Hsu fares better with music. 

If I didn't DIY, I would go with a sub from either one of them.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

HSU Research VTF-3 MK4 - YouTube

SVS SB12-Plus Subwoofer Excursion - YouTube


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

I happened to be checking out Stereo Integrity's website the other night, and noticed they list two Home Theater subwoofers, a 15" and 18" version. Add an amp and enclosure, and they look pretty stout.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

What do you all think of Infinity's home audio Infinity PS312 12-Inch 400-Watt Powered Subwoofer? These are usually sold for $300-400 online. I am interested in this one since Infinity's budget gear has worked pretty well for me in the past (love the Kappa 120.9w sub in my car).


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

Finally made my choice and came home with a.........

JL Audio Fathom F112

Initial impressions;

It's built like a vault. It's physically short and quite little but HEAVY. The piano black finish is sexy. The performance...intense. Low, deep, tight. 'Thump' to the chest when it's called for and not 'bloated' or boomy.

it's a 12" W7 styled sub inside of a sealed enclosure. Probably why there is a lack of 'boominess'.

It's internally braced to the extreme so the enclosure itself doesn't make a single rattle or noise under extreme output. Again, built like a vault.

More impressions to follow and even some photos but for now I'll say I'm very happy with it and want another!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

We have 2 of them in our mastering room, I love them.

Congrats!


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

Thanks Chad. Yeah...I see a second in my future for sure!


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

danno14 said:


> Personally a fan of velodyne.... I have had a pair of uld18's since they were first released and a single powered 12 in the bedroom. Can't tell you the first thing about I Jbl from experience.


Plus one for Velodyne, But I only like the F series. I am currently looking for some F1200s. I am testing a F1000 now and love it. 

Paradigm Reference Servo 15A is a badass sub. It retailed for 1500.00 new back in the 90s. There is one on ebay now for 599.00 (starting price).


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

I wanna test report on that JL. Might have to give them a shot.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

Hey...I just found something that sounds better than a fathom. Two of 'em!! Seriously though, wow.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

IMO, the W7 drivers were a natural for the home audio setting from the start. The very first drivers for car audio were linear, super low in distrotion, and produced more clean low bass than most anything at that time....combined with the tranfer function they produced almost too much low bass for some...some though them boomy.

Enter a W7 speced for in room use, HUGE power and easy setup, these seem like a new definition of a "high end" sub that one can walk into a store and buy. Even at the high price point you really would have to go DIY route do best them.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

I agree, there isn't anything on the market that's going to better them. I'm sure that something could be diy'd and sound as good but you can buy these mint and used for around 2 grand.

Just as a comparison to the car audio world, the w7 would det you back 600 bucks. A hi end 1kw amp will run 800 - 1000 bucks. A simple 3/4" mdf box would run about 200 (if made for you). That's two grand right there. If you further add in the incredible finish on the fathom...piano gloss pain, rounded box edges. 130lbs. I really don't think you can go wrong with it


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

prettysweetsounds said:


> I agree, there isn't anything on the market that's going to better them. I'm sure that something could be diy'd and sound as good but you can buy these mint and used for around 2 grand.
> 
> Just as a comparison to the car audio world, the w7 would det you back 600 bucks. A hi end 1kw amp will run 800 - 1000 bucks. A simple 3/4" mdf box would run about 200 (if made for you). That's two grand right there. If you further add in the incredible finish on the fathom...piano gloss pain, rounded box edges. 130lbs. I really don't think you can go wrong with it


You can pick up a 12w7 for around that price...maybe slightly cheaper if you shop around and be patient. 

A solid amp that will blow the w7 to smithereens won't run you any more than $350-400. There are TOOOONS of options out there. Crown, Behringer, etc etc. Most of these amps will run multiples too

You can pick up a VERY nicely built, fully braced with rabbet joints, etc etc MDF box (in various sizes) for around $130 shipped from DIYSoundGroup. Great guy and plenty of people buy from him on various sites. I'll likely be ordering my 3cuft sealed box for a Dayton 18"HO soon. 


Not trying to say you made a bad decision at all, as the Fathom 112 is a very nice sub. You can have a very nice 18" sealed sub for around $600 and all you have to do is the finishing. Seems like most don't care too much about that step lol. Duratex or just something to suffice in a theater room will do. Local guy to me did a VERY nice piano black job on some Statements so I might see if he wants to help me out


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Problem is that the JL has DSP, if you think it's making all that low end in that tiny ass sealed box without some "help" you are out of your mind.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

chad said:


> Problem is that the JL has DSP, if you think it's making all that low end in that tiny ass sealed box without some "help" you are out of your mind.


Yes... there is a lot of very specific tuning and active processing in a Fathom... EQ, limiting, protection, not to mention a VERY stout switching amplifier. Duplicating all that via DIY methods is not impossible, but it would require a lot of gear and would not be simple.

Here's a gallery where you can take a peek inside of a Fathom as it is built...

http://www.jlaudio.com/galleries/JL+Audio%E2%80%99s+U.S.+Factory/Fathom+%26+Gotham/718619


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

msmith said:


> Duplicating all that via DIY methods is not impossible, but it would require a lot of gear and would not be simple.


Or economical, or practical in size, after recommendation from Bob Katz we bit on 2, never looked back.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

I would have one in my theater if my budget allowed it......that's all I'm saying...

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

chad said:


> Problem is that the JL has DSP, if you think it's making all that low end in that tiny ass sealed box without some "help" you are out of your mind.





msmith said:


> Yes... there is a lot of very specific tuning and active processing in a Fathom... EQ, limiting, protection, not to mention a VERY stout switching amplifier. Duplicating all that via DIY methods is not impossible, but it would require a lot of gear and would not be simple.
> 
> Here's a gallery where you can take a peek inside of a Fathom as it is built...
> 
> JL Audio


Most nicer "pro" amps have DSP also and most also have AVR's with subEQ of some sort, or something like a BFD. 

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm just simply asking what it does that you couldn't do with some DSP/EQ like above and nicer pro-amps that deliver more than enough power. Thanks 

Thanks for the link too btw. Definitely a work of art and beautiful. I'd love to have one


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## naughtyca (Mar 1, 2012)

I did not read all the post bit if you are looking for a powered ht sub look at dayton in parts expeess for $129 get 2 or 3 of them and you will be set, I have 3 of them and that thing rocks

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

For ****s and giggles you both should audition the Fathoms at a dealer and report back. Naughtyca can report back asap since he's allready got his 3 daytons and ousooner 2...get cracking on your Dayton 18"/DIYMA soundgroup set up. 

I'd love to hear back after some testing...who knows, might have a pair of Fathoms up for sale if your options work as good for less money. Mind you, I'm doubtful. But you guys would be in the best position to compare first hand and that's worth more than speculation, right?

Looking forward to it!


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## naughtyca (Mar 1, 2012)

prettysweetsounds said:


> For ****s and giggles you both should audition the Fathoms at a dealer and report back. Naughtyca can report back asap since he's allready got his 3 daytons and ousooner 2...get cracking on your Dayton 18"/DIYMA soundgroup set up.
> 
> I'd love to hear back after some testing...who knows, might have a pair of Fathoms up for sale if your options work as good for less money. Mind you, I'm doubtful. But you guys would be in the best position to compare first hand and that's worth more than speculation, right?
> 
> Looking forward to it!


How much are those JL Audio Fathom F112 like 3k?


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

^^I bought a pair (used) but both flawless and only a couple months old and I paid 2k for each. but yeah, new is around 3k i think


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## naughtyca (Mar 1, 2012)

give me $1500 and i'll get 12 of those dayton subs and i can guarantee you those will ***** slap your JL Audio Fathom F112, and that's half the price.


just kidding, I'm glad you can afford those.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

send me your paypal.

...now i'm just kidding : )


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## naughtyca (Mar 1, 2012)

Darn and i was about to pm you my paypal lol


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

ousooner2 said:


> Most nicer "pro" amps have DSP also and most also have AVR's with subEQ of some sort, or something like a BFD.
> 
> I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm just simply asking what it does that you couldn't do with some DSP/EQ like above and nicer pro-amps that deliver more than enough power. Thanks
> 
> Thanks for the link too btw. Definitely a work of art and beautiful. I'd love to have one


The processors in pro amps may not have the capabilities to do what the custom processors in the Fathoms can do. The EQ boost-cut range might not be sufficient, for example... the limiter curves may not be as suitable or conditional on the right factors... or latency might create problems. Also, not all the processing is digital. Sometimes, analog is better. And, don't forget the user-adjustable processing.

The pro amplifier itself might not be as optimized for the actual impedance curve of the driver in the enclosure. If it's powerful, it probably has a noisy fan, too... and it doesn't fit in a small enclosure very neatly. 

The beauty of the closed-loop design is how well the processing, amplification and loudspeaker can be made to work together. A part of what you are paying for is all the research and work that goes in to optimizing these relationships. 

And don't forget all the functional and cosmetic aspects... Neutrik and Cardas connectors, control panels and knobs, grilles that don't fall off or buzz, feet that work on all surfaces, a really pretty piano finish, etc. 

Given sufficient knowledge and perseverance, you can certainly create a very good subwoofer system via the DIY route, especially if size is no object. It would be highly challenging, however, to build a Fathom-size subwoofer via the DIY approach (one that actually performed at a similar level). 

If you do accomplish the feat, then add up your design and fabrication time and your materials. Then, ask yourself what you would need to charge to sell the product commercially and make a fair profit.


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

^^^that's another thing I forgot to mention about the Fathoms...I did say that they were built like vaults but I don't think I stressed how much attention to detail has been put into the fit and finish.

When they play, even ultra low, the speaker itself and the cabinet is free of any mechanical noise or buzzing or anything like that. There are no ports to make horrible 'woofing' noises.

The finish is perfect.

So much effort has gone into these things that honestly, if you were to plunk down the money for one, it's one purchase you won't regret.

Do some research on them too. Read some reviews online. You'll be hardpressed to find negative comments about them

On another note msmith:

What cable should I buy to connect the two subs together master/slave. Belden 1800f from Bluejeans cable is what I had in mind. can you recommend something?? It'll be a long run. (obviously i'm looking for balanced cable with xlr connectors)


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

prettysweetsounds said:


> On another note msmith:
> 
> What cable should I buy to connect the two subs together master/slave. Belden 1800f from Bluejeans cable is what I had in mind. can you recommend something?? It'll be a long run. (obviously i'm looking for balanced cable with xlr connectors)


I use Mogami 2534 cable with Neutrik XLR connectors on my f112's.

Barry Ober (Soundoctor) will make them for you in any length you want. Soundoctor - Custom Cables


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## prettysweetsounds (Jul 26, 2011)

Thank-you, I'll contact him.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ousooner2 said:


> Most nicer "pro" amps have DSP also and most also have AVR's with subEQ of some sort, or something like a BFD.





msmith said:


> The processors in pro amps may not have the capabilities to do what the custom processors in the Fathoms can do. The EQ boost-cut range might not be sufficient, for example... the limiter curves may not be as suitable or conditional on the right factors... or latency might create problems. Also, not all the processing is digital. Sometimes, analog is better. And, don't forget the user-adjustable processing.
> 
> The pro amplifier itself might not be as optimized for the actual impedance curve of the driver in the enclosure. If it's powerful, it probably has a noisy fan, too... and it doesn't fit in a small enclosure very neatly.
> 
> The beauty of the closed-loop design is how well the processing, amplification and loudspeaker can be made to work together. A part of what you are paying for is all the research and work that goes in to optimizing these relationships.


Get out your checkbook....

PLM Series Introduction | Lab.gruppen

Still has fan noise, but it's the only thing I can think of that does real time impedance sensing and enough wicked filtering to do what they spent years to come up with.


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

BumpaD_Z28 said:


> That jbl is more of a "dj" / live music sub ... It would be CRAZY loud in a home environment , even if the roomis large !
> 
> I run an RBH 1010-SEP  and also their 1266's (12" in each tower)!
> 
> ~Dave


I second the RBH sound subs they are sleepers on eBay. Some real steals. 

Dave nice setup, it doesn't have much of problem with extension huh?

Rel, Wilson, bg, wisdom, focal, and the Sonance 12 is an absolute beast on a budget. These are the best I've heard.


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