# ?: Differances between PPI Power Class & Art series



## emrliquidlife (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm a fan of the PPI products. I own a number of the power class amps. While looking on ebay for a larger wattage model I spotted the Art Series. The Art Series seems to go for mad money, as in almost new priced. 

I thought that the Art series was a step down from the Power Class?!

Why are these things trading for such a high dollar? Are the specs better on them?

Ed


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## ungo4 (Jun 5, 2009)

Art series amps weren't a step down but were the previous generation top of the line PPI amps. They were replaced by the Power Class line. The reason they go for good money is that guys tend to like the looks much better and many people want amps without any processing of any kind in them for a cleaner signal and this includes the Art amps. If there were any internal differences besides the x-overs and bass boost I wouldn't know. Some of the PPI gurus on here can answer that question. Also they are well know for being strong, great sounding, bullet proof amps. 

All this assumes that your asking about the amps from the early to late 90's that were built and designed in the USA. The new PPI stuff is built over seas and are different animals altogether. None of the above applies to them.

BTW the prices on the Art amps are actually some where between 1/3 and 1/2 the original selling prices for the most of the ones I've seen for sell. They were pretty expensive amps for their time.


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

Most all of what he said is correct. In 2011 the new art stuff will be out and from what I know it isnt from overseas. The first art came out in 1992. The last models were in late 1996. They replaced the M series, have better heatsink design, offered water cooling adapters via tubing and offered PWM power supplies which were faster and cleaner. 

I use Art in my personal cars in my family. When I can turn my customers to them, I do. I wont sell PC. Not even the same amps.

Heres a link to old retail prices for them from when I was a dealer....

http://narbi.free.fr/manuels/Amplis/Precision Power/prix publics PPI.pdf


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## emrliquidlife (Jan 19, 2008)

I understand the PWM, and the lack of any processing, but the prices just threw me back. Why do you shun the Power Class from the late 90s. I have a number of them in the grey shrouds, and they take a licking and keep on ticking. 

Yes, the PC has processing, but is it really about repairability in the PC series. I had heard something about how the bottom of the amp was mounted. 

Any case, I run a PPI 4400, and a 2400 for sub duty, should I be upgrading to the Art Series of the 90s?! I'm way passed needing to attain a high db level. I listen at low levels and want clean transparent sound.

Mods, delete this thread!!!!! I just found the bickering thread. Holy cow! Since when did people stop making decisions with their ears? 

New PPI guys, build it and we will listen. If it sucks be prepared, if it rocks, you have some old guys ready to educate the young ones.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

emrliquidlife said:


> I understand the PWM, and the lack of any processing, but the prices just threw me back.


Why is it surprising that a product with iconic looks sells for more than a similar product that looks like a muffler? Build quality is about the same, and "sound" is obviously the same (competently designed, well-built amps are commodity parts), so looks is a legitimate differentiator.

That said, anyone willing to pay near original list for an excellent condition A404.2 PLEASE contact me at once!


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> Why is it surprising that a product with iconic looks sells for more than a similar product that looks like a muffler? Build quality is about the same, and "sound" is obviously the same (competently designed, well-built amps are commodity parts), so looks is a legitimate differentiator.
> 
> That said, anyone willing to pay near original list for an excellent condition A404.2 PLEASE contact me at once!


Build quality is nothing the same. 

PC from Asia, Art from USA. 
PWM not in PC, is in old stuff.
PC does not have the STN ratio worth a damn, Art does
PC has a much lower damping factor, Art does not
PC looks like crap, Art looks awesome
PC wasnt much cheaper then Art
I can go on and on...

Lets compare apples to oranges on a different thread


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

emrliquidlife said:


> I understand the PWM, and the lack of any processing, but the prices just threw me back. Why do you shun the Power Class from the late 90s. I have a number of them in the grey shrouds, and they take a licking and keep on ticking.
> 
> Yes, the PC has processing, but is it really about repairability in the PC series. I had heard something about how the bottom of the amp was mounted.
> 
> ...


Let us know when your in Oregon....


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AudioDave said:


> Build quality is nothing the same.


I don't know where you get that idea. The ur-Powerclass amps were the last to be made (I believe) before PPI fell into the clutches of that scoundrel Darrell Issa. And they were basically just the Art Series .2 in muffler shells, from what I was told at the time.

As for DEI and post-DEI PPI stuff that also carried the "Powerclass" name, I have no idea about it. Don't think I've ever seen one. And I have no interest, because it's all so antique: large, underpowered for its size, class AB. If they got serious about making modern amps and came out with legit competitors to the Jello XD and HD series, I might look at them again.



AudioDave said:


> PC from Asia, Art from USA.


Irrelevant - and goddammit I hate it when people pull that kind of jingoistic bigoted ******** - but wrong to boot. The original PC mufflers clearly had "Designed and Handcrafted in the USA" on their heatsinks. 








Perhaps they were in violation of FTC labeling rules, but I doubt it. But so ****ing what? Are yellow people somehow innately inferior at soldering and bolting **** together than white people? 



AudioDave said:


> PWM not in PC, is in old stuff.


Again, the ur-PC was, from contemporary accounts, Art .2 in a muffler shell.



AudioDave said:


> PC does not have the STN ratio worth a damn, Art does


Wrong again. To use one example of equivalent amps:
PPI A404.2 rated S/N: 100dB
PPI PC450 rated S/N: 110dB



AudioDave said:


> PC has a much lower damping factor, Art does not


DF is irrelevant at these levels, but again, you're wrong. Again, same two amps.
A404.2 rated DF: >200
PC450 rated DF: >500



AudioDave said:


> PC looks like crap, Art looks awesome


Here I agree with you. Arts looked cool. I bought one when they were new because it looked cooler than other amps like the RF George Foreman grille plates or the ridged-box ESX's, and at the time I couldn't afford amps that looked cooler (McIntosh). I never would've bought one of the Powerclass mufflers because they're IMO ugly and the same size. (If the mufflers had the same power but a quarter the size, that would've been different.)

To me, looks are an issue, so Art > PC. Looks seem to be an issue for others as well, which is why Arts have higher resale value than PCs, comparing similar condition amps of the same output potential. 

But if looks aren't an issue, there's little to choose between the two amps. And it's dishonest to claim otherwise.



AudioDave said:


> PC wasnt much cheaper then Art


I remember PC being slightly more than the Art .2's they replaced, but could be wrong on that. After all, PC replaced Art as PPI's flagship amp line.


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> I don't know where you get that idea. The ur-Powerclass amps were the last to be made (I believe) before PPI fell into the clutches of that scoundrel Darrell Issa. And they were basically just the Art Series .2 in muffler shells, from what I was told at the time.
> 
> As for DEI and post-DEI PPI stuff that also carried the "Powerclass" name, I have no idea about it. Don't think I've ever seen one. And I have no interest, because it's all so antique: large, underpowered for its size, class AB. If they got serious about making modern amps and came out with legit competitors to the Jello XD and HD series, I might look at them again.
> 
> ...



I wasnt trying to start a schoolyard fight with you. 

PPI Art was the only line until 97. I was referring to DEI PC not the original USA ones, I know the orig were USA I was a dealer.

U said they are the same boards and amps why are the specs different then? When the art series was first out there was no PC. As for Mcintosh those are also not the same those were diff class then the PPI. 

Also the heatsinks were specially designed on the art. And they are worth more because people who run them know theres a difference and they are collectors items. 

And for the specs I have my manuals where are you getting STN and DF specs on the art? Cuz STN is not 100 and DF is not >200

Not bigoted bs, just my opinion. They are not the same 2 amps, if ya think so - ok great keep yours I will go with mine.

If you think these look alike, ya need some eye help.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AudioDave said:


> U said they are the same boards and amps why are the specs different then?


I did not say they were the same boards and amps. I wrote that they were "basically" the same. Could the layout have changed? Sure, why not? Having never opened my A404.2 (warranty sticker still there) or opened the comparable PC450, I have no idea one way or the other. Just going by what someone who would know told me at the time.

And spec changes don't have to be from performance changes: they could be from different measurement techniques. After all, newer stuff should look "better."



AudioDave said:


> As for Mcintosh those are also not the same those were diff class then the PPI.


Except for the Macs being more expensive and better looking, they're not. Anyone who expects a 50Wx4 Mac to sound the slightest bit different from a A404.2 or PC450 or any other competent 50wpc 4-channel amp is a deaf idiot. But yes, the Macs look cooler, and they cost more.



AudioDave said:


> Also the heatsinks were specially designed on the art. And they are worth more because people who run them know theres a difference and they are collectors items.


Um, I'm pretty sure the mufflers had the "specially designed" heatsinks, too. As for people who run them, well. I ran an A404.2, and I know there's no meaningful difference - competently designed-and-built audio amplifiers are commodity parts from a sonic perspective - so you're wrong with that generalization, too. 



AudioDave said:


> And for the specs I have my manuals where are you getting STN and DF specs on the art? Cuz STN is not 100 and DF is not >200


I got them from this thread, which was the first that popped up in a Google search for "PPI A404.2 damping factor." 

However, those numbers are slightly different from those in the Pro650 manual I have, which doesn't list DF (just as well, because it means precisely nothing) but lists S/N as 102dB.



AudioDave said:


> Not bigoted bs, just my opinion.


Oh, so it's "your opinion" that white people can solder and bolt commodity parts together better than Asians can? What possible basis, besides simple racism could lead to that "opinion." 



AudioDave said:


> They are not the same 2 amps, if ya think so - ok great keep yours I will go with mine.


My mint A404.2 is sitting out right now. I should take pictures and sell it. I've no interest in running an old, large class AB amp when modern Class D amps put out more power and take up less space while producing power more efficiently. And someday people might take leave of their senses and think that the PC mufflers are more attractive than the Arts.


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## emrliquidlife (Jan 19, 2008)

Whoa, I didnt know this thread was going in this direction. 

I tried to compare specs on PPI's owners manual. The specs for the Art series was rather lacking. 

My personal opinion is that the Art series looked silly. The PC broke out of the box to me. A rounded design looked cooler to me than a schematic, quasi Jackson Pollack print.

So, when did the Power Class production move offshore? I know there is the dark grey version, light grey version, and the Chrome version. Chromes having the highest values. 

Can anyone comment on the repairability of either series? Say you fry something inside, is the amp repairable. 

By the way, I can hear sonic differances in amplifiers. 

Ed


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

The PCX series and later were/are overseas...PCX being Korean for sure.


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## emrliquidlife (Jan 19, 2008)

ryan s said:


> The PCX series and later were/are overseas...PCX being Korean for sure.


I know the PCX were for sure, but I thought someone was alluding that the later Power Class were as well. I didn't know that.

Ed


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

I would _assume _the PC series was all made in the US, but I'd have to defer to the PPI experts on that one.

(Currently researching 5/6 channel amps, so this is relevant to my interests)


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> I did not say they were the same boards and amps. I wrote that they were "basically" the same. Could the layout have changed? Sure, why not? Having never opened my A404.2 (warranty sticker still there) or opened the comparable PC450, I have no idea one way or the other. Just going by what someone who would know told me at the time.
> 
> And spec changes don't have to be from performance changes: they could be from different measurement techniques. After all, newer stuff should look "better."
> 
> ...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AudioDave said:


> LOL you must be asian or something cuz I wasnt targeting anyone.


Not Asian, just extremely anti-racist.



AudioDave said:


> Ask anyone if the USA built stuff was better then when it started coming from Asia.


I would take a modern Asian amp (Jello HD-series, for instance) over anything that ever came out of Phoenix, so your "anyone" test clearly fails. 



AudioDave said:


> Someone who would say DF doesnt mean anything, after debating class AB vs D etc - obviously is a can short a 6 pack. We were not talking about class comparason. Argue with them on it its in thier spec sheets - I dont really care. :laugh:


Yes, one really has to be a drunkard (or suffering from mental impairment similar to alcohol poisoning) to think that competently designed and built amps sound different from one another. Do you think you got the herp because a witch cast a spell on you, too?


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## ungo4 (Jun 5, 2009)

From What I remember the Power Class amps that were manufactured after the Arts were all USA designed and built. The color changed from dark gray to a silver color somewhere around 1999 or 2000. I'm pretty sure there was a .2 version of the PC and this may be when the color changed. 

A year or 2 after the color changed was when PPI started to have financial problems IIRC. PPI built a few of the PCX(?) amps with the bump running down the middle of the amp just before they went under as an independent company I seem to remember. 

The chrome amps were 15th anniversary amps and seemed to be fantastic amps. They were built at the same time as the first silver ones I do believe. We sold a few of them at the shop I used to work for. 

There may have been minor changes to the circuitry from Art to PC but aside from the processing they pretty much performed identically to each other. 

If I was going to buy a PC amp I would tend to lean toward the dark gray or chrome ones because without know the manufactured date on a silver one you may be getting one closer to the financial crash and there is no way of knowing if or when they may have started cheaping out on the internals. I do remember some of the last amps we sold did seem to not be as powerful and some of them came back with problems. By that time we were having trouble getting product from PPI and service was going down hill. We quit carrying the line just after the PCX amps started showing up. It wasn't long after that when we heard about the collapse at PPI and some of our experiences started to make sense.

Just googled some images of PC amps and the silver ones look like they maybe removed the printing on top stating that they were designed and hand crafted in the USA. Maybe they did start moving production over seas around that time? The chromes ones still have it printed on them though.


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## DinLuca (Nov 5, 2009)

Eh, guys, any of you got a PC450 for sale? I already bought a PC2100 and a PC250, both grey charcoal almost black, and now i need a PC450 to get a happy PPI family in my car. I'm asking this here because i don't have the post count to open a thread yet 

Thanks


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

The old muffler amps were pretty strong in their first few years, but gawd they were ugly. 

Art amps forever!


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

There were two series of the chrome amps. The first were the limited edition 15th anniversary. Those have chrome end caps and plexi glass bottoms. Only the PC2150, PC1400([email protected]), PC2350, PC4100, Pro650, and 2500F1 were available in the 15th anniv.. These shared model numbers and specs with the dark charcoal grey amps(excluding 2500F1).

A couple of 15th anniversary amps from my collection. PC2350 and Pro650






The second chrome PC's had black end caps. They changed the model numbers except for the PC1400. The specs were different on that PC1400([email protected]).


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## ungo4 (Jun 5, 2009)

Macs, I had totally forgot about the second run of chrome amps. The 15th anniversary amps stuck in my mind because they were pretty bad ass amps. The second run didn't go over as well if I remember correctly and shared model numbers with the later silver PC amps. Thanks for the reminder.


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> Not Asian, just extremely anti-racist.
> 
> Thats why your the one making a deal out of this all
> 
> ...


Dude your a flamer, racist and a know it all. Noone cares about your crap. This thread was about the differences, not about your racial remarks and know it all attitude. I like the original USA built PPI amps, period. There are major differences in them and thats it. If you have a prob with that too bad. I dont really care anymore.


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

MACS said:


> There were two series of the chrome amps. The first were the limited edition 15th anniversary. Those have chrome end caps and plexi glass bottoms. Only the PC2150, PC1400([email protected]), PC2350, PC4100, Pro650, and 2500F1 were available in the 15th anniv.. These shared model numbers and specs with the dark charcoal grey amps(excluding 2500F1).
> 
> A couple of 15th anniversary amps from my collection. PC2350 and Pro650
> 
> ...


Amen.


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

audiogodz1 said:


> The old muffler amps were pretty strong in their first few years, but gawd they were ugly.
> 
> Art amps forever!


Amen twice to you lol


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

While I can agree the painted PC series amps are a little homely looking, I have never heard anyone say the chrome amps were ugly.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AudioDave said:


> My anyone? I dont know what your meaning is. Just because you keep saying it dont mean it fails. Ask anyone if USA is better in car audio then asian. Were not talking about a damn cell phone here.


1) You don't know what your "anyone test" is, yet you use it again: "ask anyone..." And obviously, the answer to that is *no!* The industry says no, because they all make (or buy) in Asia now. Consumers say no, because we're buying stuff made in Asia. It's just reactionary bigots like you who can't accept that Asians can do things either just as well or better than Americans can, and do so at a lower price. Well, this is the modern ****ing world. Grow up and deal. We don't have room for white dunce caps here.



AudioDave said:


> There are major differences in them and thats it.


That just has not been shown, except for in aesthetics. (And features, which favor the mufflers, because they have crossovers built in whereas the Arts with two exceptions did not.)



MACS said:


> While I can agree the painted PC series amps are a little homely looking, I have never heard anyone say the chrome amps were ugly.


Ugh. Didn't Borla make those?

OK, so you still haven't heard someone say they're ugly. But you've seen someone write it.


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## AudioDave (May 30, 2010)

LOL whatever noob Keep thinking away I dont care.


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Ugh. Didn't Borla make those?
> 
> OK, so you still haven't heard someone say they're ugly. But you've seen someone write it.


Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment . As far as mufflers go, Bola's are pretty hot looking........can't say I like the sound of them though.


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## Jln213 (Mar 5, 2020)

DinLuca said:


> Eh, guys, any of you got a PC450 for sale? I already bought a PC2100 and a PC250, both grey charcoal almost black, and now i need a PC450 to get a happy PPI family in my car. I'm asking this here because i don't have the post count to open a thread yet
> 
> Thanks


I have those exact 3 amps. About to do an all old school install.


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## Jln213 (Mar 5, 2020)

DS-21 said:


> 1) You don't know what your "anyone test" is, yet you use it again: "ask anyone..." And obviously, the answer to that is *no!* The industry says no, because they all make (or buy) in Asia now. Consumers say no, because we're buying stuff made in Asia. It's just reactionary bigots like you who can't accept that Asians can do things either just as well or better than Americans can, and do so at a lower price. Well, this is the modern ****ing world. Grow up and deal. We don't have room for white dunce caps here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you think that the quality control on an Asian made amp is the same as iso 9000 made in the USA amps is the same. You are delusional. There are quantifiable differences. I do think that there is a great amount of electronics being sold at very reasonable prices coming out of Asia, that meet or beat USA made stuff. But it's not a blanked fact. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The art series is beautiful but the simplistic "muffler" amps are gorgeous in their own way. I love the ones with the plexi bottoms because of how beautiful the boards are. I personally own 3 first gen power classes. pc 250, pc 450 and a pc 2100. All still alive and kicking with original caps. Can't say that about the 2nd gen asian made powerclass. They have known cap problems. 
But that's mostly anecdotal. Buy the best you can afford or buy what you like. It's a free country.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Jln213 said:


> I have those exact 3 amps. About to do an all old school install.


The install will match this thread which is 10 years old bro.


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## Jln213 (Mar 5, 2020)

Hahah wow. It showed 2020 on Google when I was searching. Didn't even look.


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