# Under appreciated Mid-woofers



## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

This forum used to be more about finding very good low distortion drivers that were unique that anyone could afford to use with maybe a little extra preparation for use in a vehicle. Currently trending on this forum are high end car audio specific drivers from companies like AudioFrog, Dynaudio, Focal, Hybrid Audio, and Hertz. These are great, and definitely are proven drivers, but they are also not the only options out there. Many of these car audio specific high end drivers from the above car audio brands also cost a lot of money and that is understandable given the limited market they are in.

These car audio specific drivers must also be designed for use in extreme environments and still offer a long warranty or not fail in a year in those environments. I think people who tend to purchase these car audio drivers also tend to abuse them, and they may not understand how to implement them properly like using a high pass filter to remove sub bass frequencies from them so they don’t exceed their excursion limits.

In this thread I put together a list of drivers that I identified as useful for car audio from places or sources some people may have forgotten about. Most have TS parameters that work for quasi-infinite baffle use in a car door and most don’t have open or exposed voice coils that will degrade in the potentially wet environment of a car door. They also have cones that will stand up better than a typical paper cone driver made for home audio use would.

I’ll start out with 6.5” mid woofers and then move onto 8” mid woofers. The 6.5” mid woofer is the most common and versatile size that can be used for both two-way and three-way front stage systems. The drivers with inductance reducing shorting rings will and smoother upper end frequency responses are best for two-way front stages, but these also tend to cost a bit more because they are harder to make. For a three-way front stage that requires less from the mid bass driver with a narrower passband, typically 80 Hz to 400 Hz, one can get away with a less costly driver.

A driver that is designed to be used for a specific task such as a true woofer will do better for that specific task and should cost less too. You may give up an extended smooth upper range frequency response but gain efficiency in the lower mid-bass region which is good for three way systems.

Finally, an 8” driver is really best for a three-way system in a car audio environment, mainly because of the beaming characteristics of the larger diaphragm, and the typical off axis lower door placement that most of these will end up in. They also tend to be deeper, so implementing them in many car doors may only be for a select few. With a decent low distortion subwoofer however a 6.5" mid-bass driver is all you really need. If you want very loud though some 8" drivers may be a better option.

Since AudioFrog makes fantastic midbass drivers I will use those as the benchmark to compare to when modeling.

First up is the Scan Speak Discovery 16W/4434G00 from Madisound. This driver is made for car audio by Scan Speak, and its relatively shallow so it will fit in many places. It has an fs of 55 Hz and a total Q or Qts of .48. Madisound offers this driver in one of their auto sound kits with the the R1904-613001 tweeter and passive crossovers which is also made for auto sound. It can be had for a modest $118 each.








Scan-speak 16W/4434G Discovery Autosound Woofer


Scan-speak 16W/4434G Discovery Autosound Woofer




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





Scanspeak Discovery (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)









With a proper HP filter on it I think the 70 watt rating is about right but as you can see you cant put 70 watts on it without it.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Scan Speak Silver Series 16W-4531G06 6.5" driver from Madisound. This driver is made for car audio by Scan Speak and has a unique split paper cone and neodymium magnet system. It has an fs of 51 Hz and a total Q of .59. The price on this driver is a high $322 but it also has some of ScanSpeak best technology. Scan-speak 16W-4531G06 Autosound Woofer

Scanspeak Silver Series (orange) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Scanspeak Silver Series (orange) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) excursion. You will need to implement a proper HP filter to avoid exceeding excursion with this driver and it is rated for 70 watts RMS but the efficiency is good in the lower octaves so it will get loud on less power. This driver should have a HP at around 80 Hz and be used with a subwoofer.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Scan Speak Gold Series 16W-4538G05 6.5" driver from Madisound. This driver is made for car audio by Scan Speak and also has the same unique split paper cone and neodymium magnet system like the silver series. It has an fs of 36 Hz and a total Q of .35. The price on this driver is very high at $403. It might be best to use this driver in an enclosure rather than inside a car door where the TS parameters don't lend themselves as well to this condition. 16W/4538G05 Gold Series 6.5" Mid-woofer

Scanspeak Gold Series (yellow) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)









Scanspeak Gold Series (yellow) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple). You will need to implement a proper HP filter to avoid exceeding excursion with this driver and it is rated for 70 watts RMS.


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

Right on. Good stuff, I miss those days when things were more bang for buck.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Scan Speak Revelator 18W/ 4531-G001 7" driver from Madisound. This driver is made sort of for car audio by Scan Speak and also has the same unique split paper cone but ferrite magnet system. It has an fs of 33 Hz and a total Q of .35. The price on this driver is average at $209.50. It might be best to use this driver in an enclosure rather than inside a car door where the TS parameters don't lend themselves as well to this condition but would work with DSP and proper HP filter. ScanSpeak Revelator 18W/4531G 7" Mid-Woofer 4 ohm

Scanspeak Revelator (yellow) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)











You will need to implement a proper HP filter to avoid exceeding excursion with this driver and it is rated for 70 watts RMS.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I would like to model the Anarchy-704 and Fi Audio N.7 but they do not publish their TS parameters so if anyone has them then please post them here so I can model them.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the is the Peerless SLS 830667 8 inch driver from Madisound. This driver is not made for car audio but with proper rain guard could work out well because of its friendly IB TS parameters. It has an fs of 42 Hz and a total Q of .66. The price on this driver is low at $55.52 each. This could be a good budget option for a three way system. Peerless SLS 830667, 8" Paper Cone Woofer

Peerless SLS 830667 8 inch (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










You will need to implement a proper HP filter to avoid exceeding excursion with this driver and it is rated for 90 watts RMS and I used 70 watts in the model so everyone could compare to above.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Morel MW166-4 6 inch woofer from Madisound. This driver is not made for car audio but with proper rain guard would work out well because of its friendly IB TS parameters. It has an fs of 45 Hz and a total Q of .46. The price on this driver is a modest $138 each. This could be a good budget option for a three way, or two way system. Morel MW166-4 ohm 6" Woofer Damped Polymer Composite Cone

Morel MW166-4 6 inch woofer (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










You will need to implement a proper HP filter of at least 80 Hz to avoid exceeding excursion with this driver. I used 70 watts in the model so everyone could compare to above.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the is the Morel Hybrid MW6 MKll 6 inch woofer from Crutchfield. This driver is made specifically for car audio. It has an fs of 45 Hz and a total Q of .44. The price on this driver is high at $499 per pair. This could be a good high end option for a three way, or two way system, and you know it is specifically made or IB car audio use although the TS parameters are not he most ideal for that I guess. Morel Hybrid MW6 MKII Hybrid Series 6-1/2" woofers at Crutchfield

Morel Hybrid MW6 MKll 6 inch woofer (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










You will need to implement a proper HP filter of at least 80 Hz to avoid exceeding excursion with this driver. I used 70 watts in the model so everyone could compare to above. As you can see even drivers specifically made for IB use can exceed xmax without an HP filter. This driver is not meant for the novice who may not know this.


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

JCsAudio said:


> I would like toe model the Anarchy-704 and Fi Audio N.7 but they do not publish their TS parameters so if anyone has them then please post them here so I can model them.


Fi used to have specs listed for them. It's possible they were removed in error.


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Fi Car Audio Fi N.7


7" Mid-range, 100W, 88dB, 53.2Hz



www.loudspeakerdatabase.com


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

@bnae38 Here is the Fi N.7 7 inch mid-woofer from Fi Audio. This driver is made specifically for car audio as well by Fi Audio. It has an fs of 53.2 Hz and a total Q of .49. The price on this driver is a very budget friendly $160 per pair. This could be a good high end option for a three way or two way system. They also list this driver as having a copper pole piece for reducing inductance however I was not able to get that number accurately so I guessed. I used .3 Le (inductance) for that number which is I think about average for a driver like this. Many of the features found on this driver are not usually found on a drivers that only cost $160 so this is a rather unique driver, and a bargain at this price.





Fi N.7 Midrange | Fi Car Audio







ficaraudio.com












Fi Car Audio Fi N.7


7" Mid-range, 100W, 88dB, 53.2Hz



www.loudspeakerdatabase.com





Fi N.7 7 inch mid-woofer (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)









Like most smaller mid woofers you will need to implement a proper HP filter to avoid exceeding excursion limits with this driver although this one does quit well assuming it actually has 10 mm of excursion. I used 70 watts in the model so everyone could compare to above.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Peerless by Tymphany 830946 6-1/2" driver from Parts Express. This driver is not made for car audio but it has been used successfully in the past as a dedicated woofer in a three way system, or small subwoofer in an enclosure. It has an fs of 42 Hz and a Qts of .35 so it is not the best for IB use going just by the numbers anyway. The price on this driver is low at just $56 each. Home

Peerless by Tymphany 830946 6-1/2" (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Cone excursion and xmax on this driver is quite good so it should do well but you still should use a HP filter or limit the power you put on it.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Love this thread. Back to things when I joined years back. Performance, budget, testing and finding drivers that work


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I wonder if some of the sb acoustic drivers are worthy of being tested?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Jroo said:


> I wonder if some of the sb acoustic drivers are worthy of being tested?


Yes but they have open coil designs so they would need to be implemented with proper rain guards. I ran the Sb17 variant years ago with good success. Those are coming next a little later on (likely tomorrow).


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

Fantastic thread, thanks for posting, should throw in the Silver Flutes for bang for the buck. I had fun with them learning to go active, and not worry too much about it


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## mrexcitement (Jan 23, 2019)

I personally think the the SB17MFC35-04 is one of the best bang for buck drivers out there , I have been using them in my car for the last 2 years with outstanding results and now my son has them in his car and he really really likes them too.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

JCsAudio said:


> I would like to model the Anarchy-704 and Fi Audio N.7 but they do not publish their TS parameters so if anyone has them then please post them here so I can model them.


I believe the anarchy's are still produced close to the original ts specs








Test Bench: Exodus Audio W06-017R “Anarchy”


This Test Bench article focuses on a product from Exodus Audio, a high excursion 6.5″ aluminum cone midwoofer, the W06-017R "Anarchy".




audioxpress.com





I have a dats and some 4ohm models sitting here. I checked them quickly and they matched up pretty well, IIRC.


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## swiffcliff (Aug 25, 2016)

JCsAudio said:


> @bnae38 Here is the Fi N.7 7 inch mid-woofer from Fi Audio. This driver is made specifically for car audio as well by Fi Audio. It has an fs of 53.2 Hz and a total Q of .49. The price on this driver is a very budget friendly $160 per pair. This could be a good high end option for a three way or two way system. They also list this driver as having a copper pole piece for reducing inductance however I was not able to get that number accurately so I guessed. I used .3 Le (inductance) for that number which is I think about average for a driver like this. Many of the features found on this driver are not usually found on a drivers that only cost $160 so this is a rather unique driver, and a bargain at this price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone have any experience with this guy? Looks like a great speaker at an even better price, so how come there's no talk of it?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

SSA Evil6.5" Mid-bass Speaker


SSAudio Evil6.5 mid-bass speaker




store.soundsolutionsaudio.com





SSA 6.5 is pretty decent for a cheap mid. I've been running larger midbass drivers in my previous cars so I cant compare them to anything. I was waiting for Anarchy's to restock so I grabbed these and the matching tweeters to try out.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Please do the Anarchy. Would love to see how it compares. Thanks


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the 6.5" driver from Exodus Audio Anarchy W06-017R . I'm not sure what this driver is made for but I know its a popular woofer for three way systems on this forum when it is available. It has an fs of 45.8 Hz and a total Q of .44. The price on this driver is low at $66 when it is available. At this price point though it is a bargain and the XBL motor, although power hungry is a low distortion motor. I was not sure about the inductance of .68 (may have than wrong) but it wouldn't matter much if using this driver for a three way and I don't see a mention of inductance reducing pole caps or shorting rings anywhere so it could be accurate enough. I'm also concerned about the Mms at 30.66 which is high for a driver like this. I'll post the model as a PDF so someone can check my math.

Exodus Audio Anarchy W06-017R (orange) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Given that this is an XBL motor the excursion capability is high at 12 mm so it looks good below. A high pass filter should still be used but this driver can play lower than most without exceeding Xmax.


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

swiffcliff said:


> Anyone have any experience with this guy? Looks like a great speaker at an even better price, so how come there's no talk of it?


Because fi isn't considered a sq company


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the SSA Evil 6-1/2" driver from Sound Solutions Audio. This driver is specifically made for car audio intended for use as a mid woofer for both two way and three way system systems. It has an fs of 65.49 Hz and a Qts of .474 so it is suited for IB use . The price on this driver is low at just $53 each, which makes this driver a budget winner here especially considering the shorting ring and nice carbon fiber cone you get. I think this should be on everyone's short list for budget mid woofers, if not for more than that. Speakers by SSA®

SSA Evil 6-1/2" (orange) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Cone excursion is quite good with this driver which is comparable to the AF GS. I realized I forgot to put Xmax in for the AF drivers in all the other graphs so I will have to go back and fix that but you can see it below.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Thank you for all of this. This takes me back to the good Ol' Days


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## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

Awesome stuff!
Would the Dayton RS180-4 make this list? it's quite affordable and works well for many people.


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

Would these make the list? The power requirement is less than the drivers modeled so far but, these seem like they would be great in a 2 way with a high pass of 80hz.








ARIES SK6 MKII 6.5" WOOFER (PAIR)


ARIES LOUDSPEAKERS The Aries Loudspeakers are exciting products that push boundaries where performance and value meets. Treated paper is used throughout Aries cones and silk for tweeter to provide an accurate reproduction of music. ARIES SK6 168mm Outside Diameter 144mm Cutout Diameter 5mm...



www.slaacoustics.com


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Ok, I have to keep track of these so when I have a chance to do another run I don't forget some. I have the following that need modeling:

SB17MFC35-04 (various cone types)
Dayton RS 180-4
Silver Flutes 6.5' and 8"
ARIES SK6 MKII 6.5" woofers
I'm also going to throw in the AudioFrog GS690 which is more comparable to an 8" but is very popular here.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the SB17MFC35-04 Poly Cone Driver. This driver is not made for car audio use but with proper rain guard could be used as a mid woofer for both a two way and even a three way system. It has an fs of 31Hz and a Qts of .29 so it is not really suited for IB use. The price on this driver is low at just $60 each, which makes this driver a budget friendly driver considering the advanced motor with shorting ring and nice Poly cone you get. I used the Egyptian papyrus cone version of this driver and it was one of the best sounding budget drivers I have used with a nice clean mid range sound. 

SB17MFC35-04 Poly Cone Driver (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Cone excursion is not bad and should be ok if you keep the power in check and use a HP filter at 80 Hz LR4. As you can see in the graph it is right inline with the AF GS60 shown in light blue.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

PorkCereal said:


> Because fi isn't considered a sq company


i think this is true. Also may be true of the SSA Evil as well. I have read some pretty good reviews in some other places, but they are not considered SQ companies so they may be getting overlooked. Although, I know some use FI subs, I dont think they do a great job of marketing to different crowds that may not be looking for the loud and big sub stage.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Silver Flute wool Cone 6.5" Driver in 4 ohm configuration. This driver is not made for car audio use but with proper rain guard could be used as a mid woofer for both a two way and a three way system. It has an fs of 37.5 Hz and a Qts of .24 so it is not really suited for IB use. The price on this driver is low at just $32.5 each, which makes this driver a budget friendly driver. This driver has a simple less advanced motor with no shorting ring but it does have a smooth response that may be because of the wool cone. 

Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" Driver (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Cone excursion is not bad and should be ok if you keep the power in check and use a HP filter at 80 Hz LR4.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the RS180-4 [2014] 7" Driver in 4 ohm configuration. This driver is not made for car audio use but with proper rain guard could be used as a mid woofer for a three way system. You'll need to be careful with an aluminum cone driver though as aluminum can ring and have nasty cone breakup so it may be best to use this driver in a three way only, or in a two way with a tweeter that can cross very low. It has an fs of 38.4 Hz and a Qts of .46 so it is not really suited for IB use but OK. The price on this driver is low at just $52 each which makes this driver a budget friendly driver. This driver has a more advanced motor with two shorting rings. 

Dayton RS 180-4 7" Driver (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Cone excursion is not bad and should be ok if you keep the power in check and use a HP filter at 80 Hz LR4. As you can see in the graph it is slightly better than the AF GS60 shown in light blue.


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Before anything else a huge thank you to you @JCsAudio for this thread and all the effort put into it. It's an investment in time and edit that I'm sure will help many here. 

In looking at the different drivers and all the results/comparisons one thing kinda sticks out to my eye. You're using the Audio Frog GS60 as one of your reference mid bass speakers. That speaker when compared to the others seems to have a much more restricted basket design as far as airflow. All the others have a very open or airy design basket and the GS60 send to be much more "chocked off". I have this particular speaker and when it sits in my adapter there is a pretty small amount of space between the adapter and basket openings. I wonder if that affects anything or if I'm completely off base. Have you had any issues or results that you believe could be an issue from the design? I mean I'm sure Andy designed it to be sufficient and correct for the particular driver but i still wonder about it. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Kudos on the thread and effort - gonna be a great reference piece.

Can you add the Dayton PA165-8 to this comparison?





Dayton Audio - PA165-8 6" PA Driver Speaker 8 Ohm


PA165-8 6" PA Driver Speaker 8 Ohm




www.daytonaudio.com


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

THX0849 said:


> Before anything else a huge thank you to you @JCsAudio for this thread and all the effort put into it. It's an investment in time and edit that I'm sure will help many here.
> 
> In looking at the different drivers and all the results/comparisons one thing kinda sticks out to my eye. You're using the Audio Frog GS60 as one of your reference mid bass speakers. That speaker when compared to the others seems to have a much more restricted basket design as far as airflow. All the others have a very open or airy design basket and the GS60 send to be much more "chocked off". I have this particular speaker and when it sits in my adapter there is a pretty small amount of space between the adapter and basket openings. I wonder if that affects anything or if I'm completely off base. Have you had any issues or results that you believe could be an issue from the design? I mean I'm sure Andy designed it to be sufficient and correct for the particular driver but i still wonder about it.
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


Please don't confuse mid range with a mid bass. He's doing mid ranges/ mid woofers.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

And they say DYMA is dead. This is why I started coming to this site. Fantastic job on this one. Moderators make this thread a sticky. it would take countless hours of searching old threads to find this many drivers and then be so confused as to which one was which and who did what. I know cause I have done it and still do.
Another couple of drivers that are budget friendly if you can find them at budget price. Cost nickels on the dollar at the salvage yard. These have beeb my go to and have not had the need or urge to replace them. Volvo C70 98-04 Dynaudio.
MW160GT and MW180. Was going to post the parameters but would have been a lot of clutter.


https://www.rgsound.it/prodotti/atch/20070904193552_Mobile.pdf


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

THX0849 said:


> Before anything else a huge thank you to you @JCsAudio for this thread and all the effort put into it. It's an investment in time and edit that I'm sure will help many here.
> 
> In looking at the different drivers and all the results/comparisons one thing kinda sticks out to my eye. You're using the Audio Frog GS60 as one of your reference mid bass speakers. That speaker when compared to the others seems to have a much more restricted basket design as far as airflow. All the others have a very open or airy design basket and the GS60 send to be much more "chocked off". I have this particular speaker and when it sits in my adapter there is a pretty small amount of space between the adapter and basket openings. I wonder if that affects anything or if I'm completely off base. Have you had any issues or results that you believe could be an issue from the design? I mean I'm sure Andy designed it to be sufficient and correct for the particular driver but i still wonder about it.
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


That is kind of why I did this. I did a very similar thread on Car Audio Junkies called under appreciated subwoofers and it was very popular so I thought I would do the same for mid woofers here especially since there has been a lot of questions from newer members here lately. 

As far as the GS60 having a restricted basket, I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The GS60 has 4 mm of linear excursion (3/16") which isn't much so I don't think there is a lot of air movement going on there. You probably get more air restriction through many of the pole vents that are usually on the small side more than anything else.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

To model List:

ARIES SK6 MKII 6.5" woofers
AudioFrog GS690
Dayton PA165-8
Volvo C70 98-04 Dynaudio if I can find the specs.
MW160GT and MW180, which are very good sounding drivers.
Stevens Audio


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Jroo said:


> i think this is true. Also may be true of the SSA Evil as well. I have read some pretty good reviews in some other places, but they are not considered SQ companies so they may be getting overlooked. Although, I know some use FI subs, I don't think they do a great job of marketing to different crowds that may not be looking for the loud and big sub stage.


SQ is really nothing more than an opinion really and that can mean many things to different people. In my opinion it means low distortion and uncolored sound when I talk only about the driver itself. Many of the drivers above may not do all things well but used in the correct way, and within their limits can be part of a very good sounding system that many would say is SQ. Many people equate SQ with costing many thousands of dollars to achieve and although that definitely helps, high end and expensive equipment alone does not guarantee anything. I've heard expertly installed and tuned systems with average equipment that would knock the socks off of what many people think can be done with it. 

You know what, I need to add Stevens Audio to this list. If there was ever an under appreciated driver then its from Stevens Audio.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> Ok, I have to keep track of these so when I have a chance to do another run I don't forget some. I have the following that need modeling:
> 
> SB17MFC35-04 (various cone types)
> Dayton RS 180-4
> ...


Don't know if you can find the T/S Specs or not but maybe do the GS690 vs. Morel and CDT 6x9s?


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## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

Great thread...looking like a sticky!


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

To model List:

ARIES SK6 MKII 6.5" woofers
AudioFrog GS690
Dayton PA165-8
Volvo C70 98-04 Dynaudio if I can find the specs.
MW160GT and MW180, which are very good sounding drivers.
Stevens Audio
GS690 vs. Morel and CDT 6x9s


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Petererc said:


> And they say DYMA is dead. This is why I started coming to this site. Fantastic job on this one. Moderators make this thread a sticky. it would take countless hours of searching old threads to find this many drivers and then be so confused as to which one was which and who did what. I know cause I have done it and still do.
> Another couple of drivers that are budget friendly if you can find them at budget price. Cost nickels on the dollar at the salvage yard. These have beeb my go to and have not had the need or urge to replace them. Volvo C70 98-04 Dynaudio.
> MW160GT and MW180. Was going to post the parameters but would have been a lot of clutter.
> 
> ...


this was literally me when I initial found this site. I would write down the model numbers being discussed and then go google them to better understand them. 

I will also agree, the Volvo Dyn midbass is a truly a junk yard jewel. Everytime one shows up in the salvage yards near me, the midbass and tweeters are the first thing gone. If I could fit an 8", that would be one of the first I put in


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Shame there isn't more info on the fi mid, they use to make a mid under their ascendant audio brand that was pretty popular. IIRC AA was just their dealer only brand... 

Ascendant Audio Poly 6.5" mid


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

JCsAudio said:


> SQ is really nothing more than an opinion really and that can mean many things to different people. In my opinion it means low distortion and uncolored sound when I talk only about the driver itself. Many of the drivers above may not do all things well but used in the correct way, and within their limits can be part of a very good sounding system that many would say is SQ. Many people equate SQ with costing many thousands of dollars to achieve and although that definitely helps, high end and expensive equipment alone does not guarantee anything. I've heard expertly installed and tuned systems with average equipment that would knock the socks off of what many people think can be done with it.
> 
> You know what, I need to add Stevens Audio to this list. If there was ever an under appreciated driver then its from Stevens Audio.


I've thought about going to Stevens audio drivers, at least the midbass. Just can't bring myself to change yet


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

PorkCereal said:


> Please don't confuse mid range with a mid bass. He's doing mid ranges/ mid woofers.


OP is using the GS60 and GB60 as his reference drivers to compare with. On the AF website even the GB60 is listed as a midrange for some reason., LOL.









Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Im interested in seeing how the Stevens models. Some say it performs well, others have told me it is more like a very good PA style speaker.


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## tfunk182 (Jun 3, 2019)

Is the GS60 showing more volume than the GB60 because of its 1db higher sensitivity rating or is it something else?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Aries SK6 MKll 6-1/2" driver sold by SLS Acoustics . This driver is designed and made for car audio and is intended for use as a mid woofer for both two way and three way system systems. It has a low fs of 38 Hz and a Qts of .53 so it is suited for IB use . The price on this driver is low at just $154 pair which makes this driver a unique budget driver. ARIES SK6 MKII 6.5" WOOFER (PAIR) – SLA Acoustics

Aries SK6 MKll 6-1/2" (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) Note, this driver is limited to 30 watts RMS so I modeled all at the same 30 watts.










Cone excursion looks real good if the xmax is as high as they claim it is. As you can see in the graph it is much better than the AF GS60 shown in light blue.










On 70 watts they compare like this.










With come excursion you will need a HP filter.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

deleted specs


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Petererc said:


> MW160GT
> TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
> Thiele Small Parameters


If you don't mind could you lease delete that. I have the specifications for those drivers.

Thanks


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the AudioFrog GS690" driver. This driver needs no introduction but it is specifically designed and made for car audio by Andy Wehmeyer and is intended for use as a mid woofer for a two way system but also works great for a three way system. It has an fs of 58.3Hz and a Qts of .64 and is well suited for IB use . The price on this driver is average to average high at $329 pair.

I was not able to model the CDT 6x9 because I could not find the TS specifications.

AudioFrog GS690 6x9" (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Cone excursion is good but you will need to use a HP filter on this driver.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

To model List:

Dayton PA165-8
Volvo C70 98-04 Dynaudio if I can find the specs.
MW160GT
MW180
Stevens Audio
Morel 6x9
CDT 6x9s (cannot find specifications)


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Stevens Audio SA6CS 6.5" driver. This driver was designed by Eric Stevens from Image Dynamics. It is designed and made for car audio and is intended for use as a mid woofer in a two way system. It has an fs of 49 Hz and a Qts of .30 and is suited for IB use and it also has two aluminum shorting rings to lower inductance. The price on this driver is average/high at MSRP $589 for a pair of 6.5" mid woofers and a pair of 1" tweeters as an active set. These drivers are also beautify for the price you pay. 

Stevens Audio SA6CS 6.5" (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)










Excursion for this driver is very good but you will need an HP filter like any other driver this size. 










Some of the TS parameters are kind of quirky so I attached the PDF from the model if anyone wants to check but I think I got it close if not right on. I had to guess on the inductance because that was not given.


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

JCsAudio said:


> Next up is the Stevens Audio SA6CS 6.5" driver. This driver was designed by Eric Stevens from Image Dynamics. It is designed and made for car audio and is intended for use as a mid woofer in a two way system. It has an fs of 49 Hz and a Qts of .30 and is suited for IB use and it also has two aluminum shorting rings to lower inductance. The price on this driver is average/high at MSRP $589 for a pair of 6.5" mid woofers and a pair of 1" tweeters as an active set. These drivers are also beautify for the price you pay.
> 
> Stevens Audio SA6CS 6.5" (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)
> 
> ...


First driver that really seems to carry like the AF.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

PorkCereal said:


> Please don't confuse mid range with a mid bass. He's doing mid ranges/ mid woofers.


I believe a mid-woofer and mid-bass are one and the same.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Can we add HAT U69 & U69s please? And I know they blow budget but for comparison what about adding an Illusion Audio C8-W? It’ll fit where most 6x9’s will. Thanks Dave


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

JCsAudio said:


> I would like to model the Anarchy-704 and Fi Audio N.7 but they do not publish their TS parameters so if anyone has them then please post them here so I can model them.


Fresh out of the box measurements.


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## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

Maybe @jtrosky has the specs for the CDT 6x9 since he uses them.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Jroo said:


> Im interested in seeing how the Stevens models. Some say it performs well, others have told me it is more like a very good PA style speaker.


Im a car audio competitor. Been super lazy about building a new system in my new car so I replaced my stock speakers with the 8" version of stevens audio drivers and ive been impressed with just un-eq'd bass output and vocals 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

Found these on a thread regarding the CDT 6x9. Not sure if they're good enough.
The specs on these speakers are as follows:

*Specifications*:

_Sensitivity 89.4dB_
_Power Handling: 80W RMS (180W Peak)_
_Frequency Response: 40hz - 7000hz_
_Nominal Impedance: 2 ohms_
_Voice Coil Diameter: 1.4"_
_Peak Xmax: 10mm_
_Magnet Weight: 27oz_
*Thiele-Small Parameters*:

_Free Air Resonance: 52hz_
_Voice Coil DC Resistance: 3 ohms_
_Voice Coil Inductance @ 1khz: 0.63mH_
_Mechanical Q (Qms): 4.57_
_Electrical Q (Qes): 0.649_
_Total Q (Qts): 0.568_
_Compliance Volume (Vas): 19.042L; 0.672ft3_
_Moving mass, Diaphragm: 24.73 Gr_
_Motor Force Factor: 7.328Tm_


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Dynaudio MW 160 GT. This driver is designed and made for car audio and is intended for use as a mid woofer in a two way system and can be used for a three way too. It has an fs of 60 Hz and a Qts of .62 and is suited for IB. Dynaudio does not state that this driver has a shorting ring but looking at the inductance it is on the low side at .16 mH. The price on this driver is average and seems to run around $400 for a pair if you can find them. 

Dynaudio MW 160 GT (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Excursion for this driver is very good but you will need an HP filter like any other driver this size.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Dynaudio MW 180 GT. This 8" driver is designed and made for car audio and is intended for use as a dedicated woofer in a three way system and should not be used for a two way system. It has an fs of only 33 Hz and a Qts of .51 and is suited for IB in a car door or for use as a subwoofer in an enclosure. Dynaudio does not state that this driver has a shorting ring. The price on this driver is average/high and seems to run around $270 each.

Dynaudio MW 180 (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Excursion for this driver is very good but you will need an HP filter if you use it infinite baffle in a door.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Dayton Audio PA165-8 [2017 model]. This 6" PA driver is not designed for car audio and is intended for high output (for a 6") in a stage monitor and can be used for a midrange in a two way PA system. It has a high fs of 80.8 Hz and a Qts of .47 but is suited for IB use so if you used a rain guard and a HP above 80 Hz then you could use this in a car door but midbass may suffer a little compared to others, and distortion below fs could be high too. There does not appear to be any shorting rings in this driver and the inductance is on the high side at .54 mH indicating it does not have one. The price on this driver is low at $22.48 each. 

Dayton Audio PA165-8 (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Excursion for this driver is unknown/not given but I think you will need an HP filter well above 80 Hz to avoid distortion if you use it infinite baffle in a door.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up are three 6x9 contenders I think everyone wants to see together. The AudioFrog GS690 vs the CDT 6x9 vs the Morel Temp Untra MW 6x9. All of these are designed for car audio and are intended for use in two way or three way systems. The fs for the AF is 58.3 Hz, CDT 52 Hz, and Morel 52.64 Hz. The Qts for the AF is .649, CDT .568, and Morel .40 and all are suited for IB use. Inductance is as follows AF .18 mH, CDT .63, and Morel .36 mH. I used the ts parameter from @SWRocket , post #62 for the CDT and they seemed to work out although the cone displacement was kind of low. 

CDT (red) vs AF GS690 (blue) vs Morel Tempo Ultra (purple) 










Cone displacement on all of these are very similar at 70 watts.


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## CoastieRon (Aug 28, 2016)

JCsAudio said:


> Next up are three 6x9 contenders I think everyone wants to see together. The AudioFrog GS690 vs the CDT 6x9 vs the Morel Temp Untra MW 6x9. All of these are designed for car audio and are intended for use in two way or three way systems. The fs for the AF is 58.3 Hz, CDT 52 Hz, and Morel 52.64 Hz. The Qts for the AF is .649, CDT .568, and Morel .40 and all are suited for IB use. Inductance is as follows AF .18 mH, CDT .63, and Morel .36 mH. I used the ts parameter from @SWRocket , post #62 for the CDT and they seemed to work out although the cone displacement was kind of low.
> 
> CDT (red) vs AF GS690 (blue) vs Morel Tempo Ultra (purple)
> 
> ...


Thank you for this!

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Anarchy 704 7" woofer. This woofer is not designed or made for car audio but its ts parameters suit it well for infinite baffle use in a car door. DIY Sound Group does not recommend it for car audio. Some DIYMA members have used this as a woofer in a three way system. It has a very high xmax of 12.5 mm. It has an fs of 52.3 Hz and a Qts of .45 so it is suited for IB use . Inductance according to the website is a high .85 mH but I used the .42 mH number given by @ckirocz28 . Figure the high end will roll off sooner if the inductance is really at .85 mH. The price on this driver is low at just $66 each when it is available which makes this driver a unique budget driver. www.diysoundgroup.com

Anarchy 704 (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) The 30 watt rating was a typo, I modeled this at *70 watts *like the rest.










Core excursion with this woofer would not be an issue with its large xmax although you still cant get crazy. It has the potential to be very loud if you have the power to drive it with a HP filter. Even at 120 watts (70 shown) and no HP filter this driver doesn't reach xmax until 20 Hz.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

To model List:

ARIES SK6 MKII 6.5" woofers
AudioFrog GS690
Dayton PA165-8
Volvo C70 98-04 Dynaudio if I can find the specs.
MW160GT and MW180, which are very good sounding drivers.
Stevens Audio
GS690 vs. Morel and CDT 6x9s


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Focal Utopia M 8WM 8" woofer. This 8" woofer is designed and made for high end car audio. Some DIYMA members have used this as a woofer in a three way system. It has an average to average high xmax of 5.5 mm. It has an fs of 49 Hz and a high total Q (Qts) of .9 so it is suited only for IB use or large sealed. Inductance is not given which is odd for such an expensive and highly regarded woofer so I'll guess it is on the low side of say .25 mH which affects the high end roll off and distortion as well. The price on this driver is way high at $999 each.

Also in this model is the venerable and versatile AudioFrog GS8ND2. This 8" subwoofer has a shorting ring and can play up to 300 Hz so it can be used for bother a woofer in a door, a woofer in a small sealed enclosure under a seat like in BMW, or as a shallow subwoofer in a tight space. It has an xmax of 10 mm, an fs of 42.7 Hz, and a total Q of .542. Inductance is a low .18 mH and the price is a reasonable $300 each.

Focal Utopia M 8WM (red) vs AF GS8ND2 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) I modeled all at the same 100 watts this time. @seafish










Excursion is low for the Focal but if you look at the graph it doesn't take much to get some serious midbass from this 8" woofer so in the real world this woofer shouldn't need much power to make some good midbass, thus making the lower xmax sort of a non-issue. You can see that the GB60 (purple) is impressive for a 6.5" driver with a cone on the small side for even a 6.5.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Looks like the Focal runs out of xmax around 80hz? Am I seeing that correctly?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Yes but on 100 watts and it’s probably producing more midbass than you need at that point relative to the other drivers. If you put a HP filter on it at 80 Hz 24 db linkwitz riley then it will be down 6 db at 80 Hz and won’t exceed xmax.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> Yes but on 100 watts and it’s probably producing more midbass than you need at that point relative to the other drivers. If you put a HP filter on it at 80 Hz 24 db linkwitz riley then it will be down 6 db at 80 Hz and won’t exceed xmax.


I don’t know if I’m wowed though for a $2000 pair of midbass! Mind doing an Illusion Audio C8-w for about half the money? Thanks Dave


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

The focal curve looks odd. My guess is that sharp knee in the curve is not what you would get from a real install.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

JCsAudio said:


> Next up is the Anarchy 704 7" woofer. This woofer is not designed or made for car audio but its ts parameters suit it well for infinite baffle use in a car door but DIY Sound Group does not recommend it. Some DIYMA members have used this as a woofer in a three way system. It has a very high xmax of 12.5 mm. It has an fs of 52.3 Hz and a Qts of .45 so it is suited for IB use . Inductance according to the website is a high .85 mH but I used the .42 mH number given by @ckirocz28 . Figure the high end will roll off sooner if the inductance is really at .85 mH. The price on this driver is low at just $66 each when it is available which makes this driver a unique budget driver. www.diysoundgroup.com
> 
> Anarchy 704 (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) Note, this driver is limited to 30 watts RMS so I modeled all at the same 30 watts.
> 
> ...


I'm currently running the 704's with about 125 watts each as subwoofers, no high pass and 90 hz low pass, they bottom out at max power (125 watts) below about 35 hz. I ran them high passed at 40 hz with 300 watts and they got LOUD with lots of tactile effects. All of the above in 0.14 cubic foot boxes heavily stuffed with polyfil, Qtc of 0.748. That 30 watt rating seems way too low.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

SQ_Bronco said:


> The focal curve looks odd. My guess is that sharp knee in the curve is not what you would get from a real install.


High Q bump, QTS is .9. With a DSP that would not be an issue and I’m guessing these are meant for an installation with a DSP installed by an installer.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> I'm currently running the 704's with about 125 watts each as subwoofers, no high pass and 90 hz low pass, they bottom out at max power (125 watts) below about 35 hz. I ran them high passed at 40 hz with 300 watts and they got LOUD with lots of tactile effects. All of the above in 0.14 cubic foot boxes heavily stuffed with polyfil, Qtc of 0.748. That 30 watt rating seems way too low.


My guess is the ts parameters I was given are probably not accurate and I suspect that 12.5 mm xmax is very optimistic. DIY Sound Group also rates these at 100 watts RMS.

You know the old saying, you get what you pay for", it might be true, or somewhat true here. 

The 30 watts I listed was a typo by me, I used 70 and 100 watts. The wattage I use is listed at the top of each graph.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Amazing info!


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Morel TiW 634Ft Titanium 6.5" woofer. This 6.5" woofer is not designed for car audio but with careful planning it could be used. It has an fs of 40 Hz and a Qts of .39 so it isn't ideal for IB use but if you used a rain guard and a HP at 80 Hz then you could use this in a car door. There does not appear to be any shorting rings in this driver and the inductance is on the slightly high side at .45 mH. The price on this driver is average to average high at $168 each from Madisound. Morel TiW 634Ft Titanium 6" Woofer, Double Ferrite Magnet, 4 ohm (madisoundspeakerstore.com) 

Morel TiW 634Ft Titanium (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Cone displacement appears to be slightly better than the GS60 on 70 watts at first but then goes way off the charts once you exceed that. I would say a minimum 80 hz LR4 HP would be needed for this driver in a car door.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Morel Powerslim 6 Untra Shallow woofer. This 6" woofer is designed for car audio and other shallow locations. It has an fs of 69 Hz and a Qts of .61 so it is deal for IB use but careful planning and the use of a rain guard with a HP at 80 Hz is a good idea. There does not appear to be any shorting rings in this driver but the inductance is good at .27 mH. The price on this driver is average to average high at $202 each from Madisound. Morel PowerSlim 6 Ultra Shallow Woofer w/ Carbon Cone (madisoundspeakerstore.com) 

Morel Powerslim 6 Untra Shallow woofer (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple) 










Xmax is exceeded early on this driver compared to most but with careful panning and a HP 24 db LR4 filter this shortcoming can be mitigated. The HP should probably be set at 100 Hz for this driver so even though it looks like it matches the AF drivers above, it wont with a HP at 100 Hz.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

^^^ Shallow is an understatement for that driver...

And IMO that is not bad response graph for a driver that is LESS then .75" deep

I have one that I'll be installing up firing in my trucks dash for center channel midbass duty. It will only need to run down to 200 so it should be perfect as well as relatively easy to install.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

I LOVE THIS THREAD


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> Next up is the Morel Powerslim 6 Untra Shallow woofer. This 6" woofer is designed for car audio and other shallow locations. It has an fs of 69 Hz and a Qts of .61 so it is deal for IB use but careful planning and the use of a rain guard with a HP at 80 Hz is a good idea. There does not appear to be any shorting rings in this driver but the inductance is good at .27 mH. The price on this driver is average to average high at $202 each from Madisound. Morel PowerSlim 6 Ultra Shallow Woofer w/ Carbon Cone (madisoundspeakerstore.com)
> 
> Morel Powerslim 6 Untra Shallow woofer (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)
> 
> ...


Not to side track but this would make a killer center channel! Same speaker but a coaxial:









Morel PowerSlim 6 Ultra Shallow Integra Coaxial


Morel PowerSlim 6 Ultra Shallow Integra Coaxial




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

JCsAudio said:


> My guess is the ts parameters I was given are probably not accurate and I suspect that 12.5 mm xmax is very optimistic. DIY Sound Group also rates these at 100 watts RMS.
> 
> You know the old saying, you get what you pay for", it might be true, or somewhat true here.
> 
> The 30 watts I listed was a typo by me, I used 70 and 100 watts. The wattage I use is listed at the top of each graph.


The Xmax I saw straight out of the box with 135 watts free air was about 9 mm, I haven't checked them since. That could have been power limited (cheap Sony receiver), or not. They do have some crazy Xmax just eyeballing them. And, yeah, they're cheap, but that just makes them more fun!


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I think if I find some time later this week I will model the following:

Silver Flute
Steven's Audio 8” drivers

If anyone knows of any good condensers that fit the description in the tittle then please let me know.

Thanks


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## Ayrton (Jan 17, 2006)

Great thread, thank you.

Would these make the list?






H1224-08 L18RNX/P


THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS




www.seas.no


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Ayrton said:


> Great thread, thank you.
> 
> Would these make the list?
> 
> ...


I can model those and see if they are suitable.


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## Synergy324 (Nov 22, 2007)

This is the info I came here for, years ago. Thank you for this thread and keep up the great work. I have been going over this thread, the links and deciding on an 3 way system based off your great data.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Synergy324 said:


> This is the info I came here for, years ago. Thank you for this thread and keep up the great work. I have been going over this thread, the links and deciding on an 3 way system based off your great data.


 Sounds great, If you need any more advice on that setup just start a new thread and tag me in it and I might be able to help. If not, there are plenty of very knowledgeable members on this board who can. 

Check out CarAudioJunkies and where I have a similar thread called Under Appreciated Subwoofers. Under appreciated Subwoofers

I’ll be adding a few more under appreciated subwoofers to that thread soon.


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## DarkravenR6 (Jan 29, 2021)

I am curious how the Audison AP-8's would model. Seem extremely affordable for 8" midbass. I see them listed from $249-$299 a pair.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Let me add my sincere thanks for this old school thread! I use high end products for my own car since I can appreciate them but always focus on bang for the buck when helping friends. Those pricey brands wouldn't do very well if more people realized how good a cheaper driver can sound with tuning to offset its shortcomings.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

There will be more to come but I’m having computer troubles with the modeling software. 

So many of us started out with budget equipment, a desire to do better, and little to no knowledge and then progressed to all levels of various sorts and sometimes we forget where we came from when we get to the top. 

Thank you.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Any good software for MAC operating systems?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Any good software for MAC operating systems?


I wish, but have to run those apps in Windows with Boot Camp on my MacBook Pro


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Any good software for MAC operating systems?


Yes Boot Camp so it'll run like a Windows unit! 🤣


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Guys, please keep the thread on topic.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

Would it be possible to add a couple more Scanspeak drivers once your BassBox is working again? 

Specifically:

ScanSpeak 22W/4534G00 Discovery 8" Woofer 4 ohm (madisoundspeakerstore.com) 

ScanSpeak Illuminator 18WU/4741T-00 7" Woofer, 4 ohm (madisoundspeakerstore.com) 

Thank you in advance. What you are doing for the community is very much appreciated.


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## Dasyce (Sep 22, 2016)

Can I make a request, I’d love to see how the JBL 660/670GTI midbass drivers compare to some of these drivers. I don’t think Harmon ever made a better car audio specific woofer.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Dasyce said:


> Can I make a request, I’d love to see how the JBL 660/670GTI midbass drivers compare to some of these drivers. I don’t think Harmon ever made a better car audio specific woofer.


Yes, I actually just emailed BassBox Pro Tech support to try and figure out why the driver tab doesn't load anymore. I just found out it does work in safe mode so we’ll see what happens. If I can figure out this issue then I can run these simulations for you guys.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Can we see what a JL ZR800-cw looks like too please? Thanks Dave


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## CoastieRon (Aug 28, 2016)

JCsAudio said:


> Next up are three 6x9 contenders I think everyone wants to see together. The AudioFrog GS690 vs the CDT 6x9 vs the Morel Temp Untra MW 6x9. All of these are designed for car audio and are intended for use in two way or three way systems. The fs for the AF is 58.3 Hz, CDT 52 Hz, and Morel 52.64 Hz. The Qts for the AF is .649, CDT .568, and Morel .40 and all are suited for IB use. Inductance is as follows AF .18 mH, CDT .63, and Morel .36 mH. I used the ts parameter from @SWRocket , post #62 for the CDT and they seemed to work out although the cone displacement was kind of low.
> 
> CDT (red) vs AF GS690 (blue) vs Morel Tempo Ultra (purple)
> 
> ...


I feel as though AudioFrog is the one to beat in all of these comparisons. Maybe I should just pull the trigger on a set.


DarkravenR6 said:


> I am curious how the Audison AP-8's would model. Seem extremely affordable for 8" midbass. I see them listed from $249-$299 a pair.
> 
> View attachment 299266
> 
> ...


I'm curious about this as well. I like the idea of an 8" in a 2 way system for some odd reason....


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

An 8” for a two way with tweeter is not a good idea mainly because the larger diameter speaker runs into beaming early which makes the higher frequencies drop off and the tweeter can’t cross low enough to make up for it. The Audiofrog GS690 with GB15 does work well so I would say that is somewhat an exception.


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## CoastieRon (Aug 28, 2016)

JCsAudio said:


> An 8” for a two way with tweeter is not a good idea mainly because the larger diameter speaker runs into beaming early which makes the higher frequencies drop off and the tweeter can’t cross low enough to make up for it. The Audiofrog GS690 with GB15 does work well so I would say that is somewhat an exception.


They'll be used in a 2 way with widebands (CDT ES2EX) in pods crossed at 500....

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

In that case your all set. 👍


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## CoastieRon (Aug 28, 2016)

JCsAudio said:


> In that case your all set.


One last thing, could you compare the Audiofrog 6x9, the moreltempo ultra 6x9 with this?

(Attached picture has all the specs)









Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Yes, but I think I have to use a different computer or use BassBox Pro in safe mode to make it work.


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## itsZiz (Sep 1, 2021)

@JCsAudio Could you please model the AF690 vs HATu69v2 vs ARIES SK8









HAT Spreadsheet -


Sheet1 - Table 1 Hybrid Audio Technologies <a href="https://hybrid.audio/thiele-small/">Learn More</a>,<a href="https://hybrid.audio/product-category/Mirus-V/">Mirus V</a> (High-Value Speaker Systems),<a href="https://hybrid.audio/product-category/Unity-Speakers/">UNITY SERIES</a> (Solution-Base...




docs.google.com







https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1244/3296/products/SK8_1024x1024.png?v=1595261897


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

JCsAudio said:


> Yes, but I think I have to use a different computer or use BassBox Pro in safe mode to make it work.


Got a request and specs for the Dayton Audio Epique E180HE-44, when you can get things working right again.

Dayton Audio Epique E180HE-44


Piston Diameter = 132 mm
f(s)= 42.932 Hz
R(e)= 6.6502 Ohms
Z(max)= 45.979 Ohms
Q(ms)= 3.9691
Q(es)= 0.67114
Q(ts)= 0.57407
V(as)= 10.826 liters (0.3823 cubic feet)
L(e)= 1.6225 mH
n(0)= 0.1217 %
SPL= 82.953 1W/1m
M(ms)= 33.391 grams
C(ms)= 0.412 mm/N
BL= 9.4473
K(r)= 2.8753
X(r)= 0.14338
K(i)= 0.0005886
X(i)= 0.91977 *


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

I second the epique. Super interesting driver.
I think I may wana make a set of home towers with a couple of these. Just unsure as to what home amps could comfortably power them lol


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I second the epique. Super interesting driver.
> I think I may wana make a set of home towers with a couple of these. Just unsure as to what home amps could comfortably power them lol


They don't like 300 watts, they get a little smelly, but I clipped that 300 watts, so a clean 300 might be ok. They definitely don't bottom out like the Anarchy's.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> They don't like 300 watts, they get a little smelly, but I clipped that 300 watts, so a clean 300 might be ok. They definitely don't bottom out like the Anarchy's.


Xo at what point w/ 300w without bottoming them out? That's just crazy impressive considering how high they are still able to play.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Xo at what point w/ 300w without bottoming them out? That's just crazy impressive considering how high they are still able to play.


That was 87 hz low pass running as subs, haven't gotten around to pairing them with tweeters to try a 2-way yet, it requires hooking up a different amp so I don't have to retune my current setup.
They are impressive as subs.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> That was 87 hz low pass running as subs, haven't gotten around to pairing them with tweeters to try a 2-way yet, it requires hooking up a different amp so I don't have to retune my current setup.
> They are impressive as subs.


I've heard they actually do quite good in the higher octaves as well. So if they actually follow up on that promise too, that's unreal.


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

ckirocz28 said:


> That was 87 hz low pass running as subs, haven't gotten around to pairing them with tweeters to try a 2-way yet, it requires hooking up a different amp so I don't have to retune my current setup.
> They are impressive as subs.


What size box were they in?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Six God (Jun 27, 2020)

jbl GTI 670 should fit this criteria right?
they are essentially the gb60 but less flat


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SiW80 said:


> What size box were they in?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


0.14 cubic foot modified 6x9 prefab boxes, heavily stuffed. Not optimal, but they are the boxes that I used for the Anarchy's. The Dayton's model nicely for a 0.25 cubic foot box, each.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Good Thread , took me days to get caught up....


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## Dasyce (Sep 22, 2016)

I’m keeping fingers crossed that JCsAudio’s computer issues get resolved soon. This is an awesome thread!


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## 1978monte (Aug 16, 2009)

How about the "paper" version of the Dayton RS225?

I have a pair of the 8 ohm models I've been thinking about trying in a 3 way.

Great thread by the way!


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## e39 touring (Oct 19, 2012)

Dasyce said:


> Can I make a request, I’d love to see how the JBL 660/670GTI midbass drivers compare to some of these drivers. I don’t think Harmon ever made a better car audio specific woofer.


Apparently, their lowest distortion spec driver EVER.
I just moved my pair from e30 convertible 3 way duty (88-444Hz) to my daily 2 way setup in the 05 Tc (80-2800Hz). Tuning was super easy(Ms8), and a MUCH better improvement over the Silver Flutes!
I can tell there is less distortion at high volumes. Vocals are clearer. MB seems more solid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kevski- (Jan 21, 2018)

I would like to make a request. These are mid bass 6 1/2" driver's from parts express that are $6ea. From the hundreds of reviews lots of people seem to like em. Here are the specs. I have them in my doors for temporary replacements and they kick ass! Here's the link and specs. 









Home


6-1/2" Poly Cone Midbass Woofer 4 OhmThis durable 6-1/2" poly cone woofer with rubber surround is designed to work best in small, sealed bookshelf-style cabinets. The damped poly cone creates smooth sound from 45 Hz all the way up to 3,000 Hz and is easy to integrate with many different...




www.parts-express.com


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Good news, it looks like the drivers tab in BassBox Pro is working again. I bet it fixed itself during one of the Windows 10 updates. If it stays that way then I should be able to find the time to run some more models over the next few weeks. More to come and sorry for the long delay. Its been a crazy year for me.


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## kevski- (Jan 21, 2018)

JCsAudio said:


> Good news, it looks like the drivers tab in BassBox Pro is working again. I bet it fixed itself during one of the Windows 10 updates. If it stays that way then I should be able to find the time to run some more models over the next few weeks. More to come and sorry for the long delay. Its been a crazy year for me.


Thanks for the update and for everything you're doing man. Looking forward to it.


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## bobgodd (May 11, 2021)

I bought my SB Acoustics door speakers based on the information in this thread and they’re fantastic. Thanks for your work.


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## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

@JCsAudio Thanks again for doing all this!
I'm trying to learn how to model MB drivers myself and hoping you can shed some light on methodology; Specifically, I'm wondering if you model in sealed enclosure and if so how large and what Ql value do you think should be used to model the leaky door?


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## oldieHawn (Mar 31, 2021)

kevski- said:


> I would like to make a request. These are mid bass 6 1/2" driver's from parts express that are $6ea. From the hundreds of reviews lots of people seem to like em. Here are the specs. I have them in my doors for temporary replacements and they kick ass! Here's the link and specs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey I'm looking for budget bangers for a friend. In what way do these "kick ass"? Are you using them in a 3 way configuration?


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## kevski- (Jan 21, 2018)

oldieHawn said:


> Hey I'm looking for budget bangers for a friend. In what way do these "kick ass"? Are you using them in a 3 way configuration?



For the price of them and what they can do, they are definitely worth it. I am actually running them 2 way passive unfortunately at the moment. They actually are real punchy and you will definitely need to sound treat the doors. They lack a bit of depth but I'm sure with some EQ they can sound even better. They sound really good compared to entry level driver's to some brands. If you are in a extreme tight budget I will definitely buy these.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Where is all the info? Am I overlooking it ? All I mostly see is 7 pages of people asking to model this or that but haven’t seen much real info? Can y’all put it all together in one post?


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Is this BassBox Pro modeling any different than WinISD? It is neat to see the graphs but WinISD is free and it takes all of 2 minutes (per driver) to input the T/S data so the program can model the responses.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Next up is the Silver Flute W17RC38 which was a very popular home audio driver used in car audio in the early DIYMA days. This driver is not designed for car audio and is intended for use as a mid-woofer in a two-way system and can be used for a three way too. It has an fs of 37.5 Hz and a very low Qts of .24 and is not suited for IB, yet it does do ok in the model on 70 watts. This driver does not have a shorting ring and looking at the inductance it is on the higher side at .53 mH. The price on this driver is low and runs around $32.60 currently for a one speaker on Madisound. This driver uses a unique wool fiber paper cone and a simple motor and it has a cast aluminum frame. The wool cone helps to damp unwanted cone breakup making it behave well in a two-way setup. These woofers also run on the large side and are deep so take your measurements carefully. These will also need a rain guard to keep their coils and fragile paper cone protected from the elements. Silver Flute W17RC38-04 ohm 6-1/2" Wool Cone (madisoundspeakerstore.com) 

Silver Flute (Green) vs AF GS60 (orange) vs AF GB60 (Yellow) on 70 watts









Excursion for this driver is actually decent considering its not designed for IB use but you will need an HP filter at 80 Hz if you use it infinite baffle in a door.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

I have (4) silverflute 6.5's in my car and i can attest that they do sound really good especially considering price.


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## Mike-G (Dec 25, 2008)

Recently found this thread and enjoyed going through it. Are there going to be any more updates? I would like to see the SI TM65 MKIV, The CDT HD-6 or ES-06, or maybe even Hertz ML1800.3.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Yes Mike, I need a little reminder every now and then. Just been so busy lately and the program has given me trouble with Windows. Let me see if I can getbsome more updates up between today and the upcoming weekend.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I didn't forget, just very busy. Give me some more time.


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## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

kevski- said:


> For the price of them and what they can do, they are definitely worth it. I am actually running them 2 way passive unfortunately at the moment. They actually are real punchy and you will definitely need to sound treat the doors. They lack a bit of depth but I'm sure with some EQ they can sound even better. They sound really good compared to entry level driver's to some brands. If you are in a extreme tight budget I will definitely buy these.


I can jump in here too. I installed these in the doors of my wife's sequoia to replace the old rotten JBL 7" woofers.

The $6 specials are GREAT in this application. They sound great and have surprising ability to play low. I have them high passed at 40Hz, 12db and they play nice and loud.


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## kevski- (Jan 21, 2018)

mzmtg said:


> I can jump in here too. I installed these in the doors of my wife's sequoia to replace the old rotten JBL 7" woofers.
> 
> The $6 specials are GREAT in this application. They sound great and have surprising ability to play low. I have them high passed at 40Hz, 12db and they play nice and loud.


I'm glad you also like them!! I actually swapped them out for the Dayton Audio DC160-8 6-1/2" Classic Woofer at $29.98ea. The Dayton sound a bit more dynamic than the $6 specials. I may put the $6 Woofers on my rear doors for my rear fill. I love the $6 specials and I will recommend them to everyone. It's just Im looking for a smoother response and from the graph of those Dayton I mentioned is what made me put them on and I'm not disappointed.


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## eugene.vasyuk (8 mo ago)

JCsAudio said:


> ext up is the is the Peerless SLS 830667 8 inch driver from Madisound. This driver is not made for car audio but with proper rain guard could work out well because of its friendly IB TS parameters. It has an fs of 42 Hz and a total Q of .66. The price on this driver is low at $55.52 each. This could be a good budget option for a three way system.


only if your door is intended for 8" install from the factory.
Though there are other speakers that better work as midbass like PRV audio 8mb450-4 v2.This thing can get insanely loud (115db until it hits excursion limits at 80Hz according to WinISD) comapred to SLS's 107 db max. The downside is that it requires a little bit of compenstation by parametric EQ to remove the results of bass gain due to Qts > 0.7.
The problem with that 8" SLS is that in WinISD 6.5" Hertz C165 L performs in 80+ Hz area almost the same without any issues with creating pods, modyfying the door cart etc. So bigger is not always better, especially if you have a car with factory place for 6.5" midbass speaker.


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## eugene.vasyuk (8 mo ago)

Another good woofer to model:
Ground Zero GZRK 165SQ (120Euro/pair)

I tried to do it via WinISD and it gives 2db higher max spl compared to 8" Peerless SLS and is easier to drive by the amp


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## Gilroy (Mar 31, 2007)

JCsAudio said:


> Next up is the SB17MFC35-04 Poly Cone Driver. This driver is not made for car audio use but with proper rain guard could be used as a mid woofer for both a two way and even a three way system. It has an fs of 31Hz and a Qts of .29 so it is not really suited for IB use. The price on this driver is low at just $60 each, which makes this driver a budget friendly driver considering the advanced motor with shorting ring and nice Poly cone you get. I used the Egyptian papyrus cone version of this driver and it was one of the best sounding budget drivers I have used with a nice clean mid range sound.
> 
> SB17MFC35-04 Poly Cone Driver (red) vs AF GS60 (blue) vs AF GB60 (purple)
> 
> ...



Wow, so I currently run the NVX version of the SB 6.5, what advantage would the GB's give me based on these curves? Is it just cone control/power handling below 100hz or so? I might be mis-understanding the implications of these curves.


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## winkychevelle (Jun 26, 2016)

Guess my doors are sealed enough that they don't exactly act like ib anymore asine haven't bottomed out yet. my silverflutes are on 90w normally crossed at 50hz 24db slope but I have run them with no high pass at all on some rock style music to fill in the bottom end a little. 

At one point they were on 125w crossed the same. 

Honestly this little $35 speaker is damn good for the money. It struggles beyond 2500hz though. Which mine are crossed at 2khz lowpass anyway.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

winkychevelle said:


> Guess my doors are sealed enough that they don't exactly act like ib anymore asine haven't bottomed out yet. my silverflutes are on 90w normally crossed at 50hz 24db slope but I have run them with no high pass at all on some rock style music to fill in the bottom end a little.
> 
> At one point they were on 125w crossed the same.
> 
> Honestly this little $35 speaker is damn good for the money. It struggles beyond 2500hz though. Which mine are crossed at 2khz lowpass anyway.


I agree. I have four flutes in my car on 100w each. They handle it well but I’d like a little more bass. I’ve been shopping for 8’s that I could possibly fit. I’m gonna print one adapter out tonight and see how it will fit.


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## winkychevelle (Jun 26, 2016)

KFXGUY said:


> I agree. I have four flutes in my car on 100w each. They handle it well but I’d like a little more bass. I’ve been shopping for 8’s that I could possibly fit. I’m gonna print one adapter out tonight and see how it will fit.


The 8 inch flutes aren't much deeper iirc,might just need a larger opening or spacer, and stereo integrity has the tm8 on preorder now. The tm65mkiv is known to be a mid heavy woofer the tm8 from early reports seems to be similar. 

I'm in the same boat I kinda want more but I need to install a sub stage and see how it blends. Plus most drivers that play very low well struggle.on the top end and usually require a 3way setup. Which is another idea I'm toiling with.


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## Smittydog (6 mo ago)

Did I miss the modeling for the Stevens MB8s? Saw em mentioned but didn't see the graphs.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

winkychevelle said:


> The 8 inch flutes aren't much deeper iirc,might just need a larger opening or spacer, and stereo integrity has the tm8 on preorder now. The tm65mkiv is known to be a mid heavy woofer the tm8 from early reports seems to be similar.
> 
> I'm in the same boat I kinda want more but I need to install a sub stage and see how it blends. Plus most drivers that play very low well struggle.on the top end and usually require a 3way setup. Which is another idea I'm toiling with.


I have 6.5 flutes in the doors. 6.5 flutes in the rear (where the rear doors would be but it’s a 2 door) , Vega 8’s in the back deck, Air motion tweets and unity wide bands in the dash. Sounds pretty good. I actually just got trough using a mic and pink noise with a spectrum analyzer to dial it in. Sounds really good but I’d like a little more bass out the door speakers.


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