# What is your Sub/Mid crossover point?



## Rapture333 (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't know if this thread has been posted before (I apologize if it has) but I thought it would be interesting to hear what others have set as their crossover point for their subwoofer and midrange. I upgraded to a pair of 8 3/4" woofers and a 12" Ultimo, I have been experimenting with crossover points like mad. It also helps to know here your peaks are in your system, but what is your preferred crossover point? Also, what sized driver and what slope do you use for your midbass and subwoofer?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I chose 71 since low-mid 70's seems to be a good happy place for most 6.5-7" midbass drivers in a well treated IB door. I for one will never make a smaller speaker play a bandwidth a larger speaker can do better without any ill effects on staging. I'm running a 7" Scanspeak midbass.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

I voted 56hz but its really 55 hz. I like my very full midbass up front. I do have a couple different settings though in the dsp. I go anywhere from 55 up to 80hz depending on how much boom I want.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Since I'll be able to change sub and midbass settings again without the laptop I'll likely have a tune with sub and midbass in the 60's for normal listening and then bump the subs up to about 100hz and midbass to about 125 or so when pounding the pavement. When I decide to make the subs jump sq takes a back seat to spl.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

You need to check out the speaker's spec first before crossing them.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Most of us already know to do that. As a general rule of thumb though MOST 6.5-7" woofers are pretty happy crossed around 80hz in a car door. I do know of people who have crossed drivers that size in the 40's during competition. Those same people also babysit you during the demo and usually only play boring sq tracks that make you want to put a bullet through each ear.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

50hz with sub on a 36db slope and the MB on a 24db slope.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I was running an acoustic 80Hz @ 24 dB slope Linkwitz on my car.

My Beyma 8G40 midbass don't get down as low as most car audio drivers. They have an Fs = 70Hz. But I need the sensitivity to match the horns.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Currently at 53hz 12db LW slope on MB and 62hz BW 24db slope with sub. Changed since adding the Arc Black 12 to the mix.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Why would you change the xover point on swapping amps?


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Why would you change the xover point on swapping amps?


Subwoofer not amp.


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

40 hz for everyday use.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

lizardking said:


> Subwoofer not amp.


Aah!!


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## SO20thCentury (Sep 18, 2014)

Good thread! I'm new to this so was surprised to see crossover points so low.
Please also say if you're running a midrange or more between midbass & tweet.



Hillbilly SQ said:


> usually only play boring sq tracks that make you want to put a bullet through each ear.


Hah- that's how most car SQ demo's on youtube affected me!


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## 2DEEP2 (Jul 9, 2007)

My sub to midbass cx can be anywhere between 40 Hz to 60 Hz.

I can play my 8's down to 20 Hz if I wanted, but I don't like subs above 60 Hz.

It's easy for me to localize things above 60 Hz. I use two 15" subs.


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

SO20thCentury said:


> Good thread! I'm new to this so was surprised to see crossover points so low.
> Please also say if you're running a midrange or more between midbass & tweet.
> 
> 
> Hah- that's how most car SQ demo's on youtube affected me!


Tool makes for great demo tracks when mid bass and up front bass comes into question. 
Active 3 way up front, 8,3, and tweet. 12 in the back .


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

~150hz. Subs in rear quarters just behind the B-pillars, stereo.


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## ou812 (Oct 25, 2008)

Holy hell that's high. 63 hz for me.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

SO20thCentury said:


> Good thread! I'm new to this so was surprised to see crossover points so low.
> Please also say if you're running a midrange or more between midbass & tweet.
> 
> 
> Hah- that's how most car SQ demo's on youtube affected me!


I as well as most of the other sq people I associate with in person encourage people to use their own music. I tune so pretty much all types of music have an equal chance of sounding equally good. And have an ejector seat to send anyone that plays Spanish Harlem through the roof. If I'm controlling what's being played I've been known to start out with something pure and tame then end with some kind of metal really loud. My system is here to party so that's what it will do!


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

I tend to have the mid play as low as it's rated for. 63ish but for the L6s I had that mf'er playing down to 30 iirc... Didn't even need a sub...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

#stupidlow


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I as well as most of the other sq people I associate with in person encourage people to use their own music. I tune so pretty much all types of music have an equal chance of sounding equally good. And have an ejector seat to send anyone that plays Spanish Harlem through the roof. If I'm controlling what's being played I've been known to start out with something pure and tame then end with some kind of metal really loud. My system is here to party so that's what it will do!


Not supposed to let the cat out of the bag about the ejector seat. There is a rose ....... OMG you had to bring up her .... :bowdown:


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I like 75hz on both sub and midbass...I can go to 65 but only if I don't get too volume happy.

Once I get my current tune finished I'll have my SQL setup along with an SPL setup with mids crossed in the 125 range and sub about 100.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

therapture said:


> I like 75hz on both sub and midbass...I can go to 65 but only if I don't get too volume happy.
> 
> Once I get my current tune finished I'll have my SQL setup along with an SPL setup with mids crossed in the 125 range and sub about 100.


A higher xover for spl is fine. However no matter how good it sounds with underlap/overlap, you will always be able to dial in a better tune with matching xover points.


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## Valdemar (Aug 19, 2014)

I do 70 with the anarchy 
It can go all the way down to no high pass if needed but a 15 is much better at those frequencies


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

ou812 said:


> Holy hell that's high. 63 hz for me.


Location, install, and alignment .


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

How much partying can be done with 2" mids?



Hillbilly SQ said:


> I as well as most of the other sq people I associate with in person encourage people to use their own music. I tune so pretty much all types of music have an equal chance of sounding equally good. And have an ejector seat to send anyone that plays Spanish Harlem through the roof. If I'm controlling what's being played I've been known to start out with something pure and tame then end with some kind of metal really loud. My system is here to party so that's what it will do!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

70-80hz. 8's up front. 15's for subs.


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## 6APPEAL (Apr 5, 2007)

63hz. 6.5" in prepped doors. I have crossed as low as 45.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

63/24db at the moment. Will probably mess with it some more once I have my subs playing. Small 8" mb (mw172), 12" subs


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> How much partying can be done with 2" mids?


yea... kind of my same reaction. but, the crossover is the key there. as long as he's not trying to push it down to 300hz then I think he's probably safe. though, the only way I'd run a 2" in my car is if it were crossed well above 500hz... heck, I'm considering using the Scan 10f in a future build, which is basically the 5f's bigger brother and my target crossover is 400-500hz.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

60hz @ 24db 6.5" Anarchy's currently

Had them down to 50hz @ 24db but didn't blend as good in my setup. Could be not enough power on the Anarchy's, EQ, or setup based limitation.


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## ou812 (Oct 25, 2008)

Orion525iT said:


> Location, install, and alignment .


I would love to hear it.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

40hz @ 24 db per......


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

15 inch Hertz Hi-Energy sub up to 56 w/12 db slope, Morel Elate 9" midbass down to 40 w/12 db slope... This does what I want it to do. 

Although there are some pretty specific rules for how a SQ system should sound, those rules do not suit my tastes for daily listening.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Surprised to see so many above 80hz. Makes me wonder if they lack Midbass and using the sub to compensate.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

ErinH said:


> yea... kind of my same reaction. but, the crossover is the key there. as long as he's not trying to push it down to 300hz then I think he's probably safe. though, the only way I'd run a 2" in my car is if it were crossed well above 500hz... heck, I'm considering using the Scan 10f in a future build, which is basically the 5f's bigger brother and my target crossover is 400-500hz.


I am running my 2" CDT's at 600/24db. They can go to 400 but can't handle much power that way for when I need the volume.


Some may not realize this, and I had to learn it, but midbass is much more than the 60-80 range, so if your sub and midbasses are dialed in, there is plenty of midbass even with an 85hz x-over. My doors are well sealed and solid. My car has upfront bass all day long, good impact, and I am running the sub at 85hz, midbass at 85-800 bandpassed, and 2" wideband from 600 up. All 24db slopes. For lesser volumes and pure SQ I drop down to 65hz, although I usually don't listen that low of a volume


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I've always thought the mid-bass range is somewhere between 80hz-300hz?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

lizardking said:


> I've always thought the mid-bass range is somewhere between 80hz-300hz?


It is, that's why crossing at 65 or 85 can still result in solid midbass. I have learned that too much at 65-80 as well as 160-250 on the midbass can make it too "fat" and result in less clarity. The sub should be handling most of 70 and down anyways...


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

lizardking said:


> I've always thought the mid-bass range is somewhere between 80hz-300hz?


I tend to consider midbass the range were ITD dominates spacial cues in imaging, so 80-600hz. But the upper end of that is not the typical xover point for three-way systems. 



lizardking said:


> Surprised to see so many above 80hz. Makes me wonder if they lack Midbass and using the sub to compensate.


Might be the case for some, but for me it was by design. Since I have wedged 850 cm2 of cone area into each quarter panel right behind the B-pillar I can get away with much higher xover points. I think the 70-150 range is the most demanding in car audio because at the low end is where we start to lose the benefits of cabin gain. 

I also think with the right install that many people can xover higher than what we normally consider. But it's a difficult thing to pull off, and going with large up front midbass makes more sense in most cases.


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## sapphari (Oct 7, 2013)

lizardking said:


> Surprised to see so many above 80hz. Makes me wonder if they lack Midbass and using the sub to compensate.


I kind of fall into this category. I could hear the mid woofers (5" A/D/S) popping at higher volumes if I crossed over too low. I had 10" subs, so was fine letting those play up to ~150 Hz (my crossover point). I think another part of the reason I needed to crossover so high was that the crossovers (on the ORION amps I had) weren't steep, in terms of db/octave. Don't have that spec though.

I'm in the process of building a new system, so not sure where I'll cross at yet. Hoping it will be lower than 150 though.


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## Rapture333 (Jun 9, 2013)

I have been experimenting a lot lately with crossovers since I've gotten my 8 3/4" Elate drivers installed. I have to say, the combination I have going now is perfect. I have Morel Virtus 3 ways, fromt and back, with the Elate woofers up front and a Morel Ultimo 12 in the trunk. I have experimented with extremely low crossover points (25-56) and higher ones (63-80) and have found what I think is best. 

One thing I've noticed is that by having a lower crossover point in your cabin woofers, male vocals sound much more present and realistic, and imaging is better. Anything 50hz and below contributes greatly to this effect. I also noticed that I have bumps in my subwoofer at 45-50hz that do add some "flavor" to the bass line. I have also experimented with various slopes, including 36/db slopes, which I found reduced resonance greatly but did not blend as well abd made drivers easy to locate. My personal favorite was 24/db although 30/db was nice as well, 24/db slopes had the best integration between the sub and midbass.

I ended up crossing my front stage over at 50hz as well as my sub, and my 6 1/2" rear stage at 71hz. This actually helped bring the bass up front by having the rear deck crossed at a slightly higher crossover point. The sub takes advantage of the bump at 45-50hz and because the x'over is at the same freq, resonance issues are minimized. Not to mention the fact that there is virtually no localization of the sub this low, I hear localization at 63hz. I also have the cabin speakers heavily time aligned with around a 17.00-19.00ms delay from the subs, which gives the illusion of bass of front. All in all I am very satisfied with the new crossover points dialed in.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

I'm running rather high at 120. It's a 10" sub in a small sealed box. I know my door mids are not playing low enough. It will be fixed in a week. I'll also be moving the sub into the cabin so I might leave it at 120.


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## washinri (Sep 15, 2014)

I crossover at 80hz, system tuned. midbass/subs sound nice.


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## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

80hz here 12 db for the mb's and 24 for the subs. Dayton 8" MB's port tuned to 75 or so hz. Midbass is there with LOTS of headroom. Took a bit of eq'ing obviously because of the peak from the vented mids between 80 and 130hz. I find with this system that I need very little in the way of sub bass to make things sound balanced. My car has a huge peak between 40 and 55hz that I dont have to eq down much, it works fairly well with the system.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

8's are crossed at 80Hz / 12db on the backside and 55Hz / 18db for the 15's. If I cross lower there's too much midbass and hard to balance. My car has a huge peak around 80Hz


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

70Hz here, and midbass in the doors running a narrow bandpass of 70-250, passing to coaxials in the dash running 250-up. I have 48 db L-R slopes all the way around. The sub-to mid is pretty smooth. Picked the other points based on getting full vocals up at the dash to keep the focus sharp and what looked like roll-offs in the response when measured. Haven't played with other slopes too much. I figure 180 and 360 degree shifts are most manageable.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

38 hz with no slope, rolloff of the 8s in my big ol ported monitors at home, then 32 ish? 18db lowpass to the single 18 sub.

This is in a home so is a very different beast than in a car.

In a car I usually find myself doing midbass highpass at 70 ish with 18 db slopes and subwoofer lowpass at 55 hz also 18 db slopes.

There is no right answer though lol


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

I am going to try to do a 3 way with the midbass playing down to 25hz. Imaging should be very nice. And it's going in custom kick so rattling hopefully won't be an issue.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Mine is set to 100, but I use the EQ to taper down from 50 - 100. So I play that high but the volume of the higher frequencies is lowered as it approaches 100Hz. I m basically setting my own slope.


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## Dewey00 (Jan 19, 2015)

Some of you guys are coming up with some pretty precise numbers i.e. 63hz, 57hz, 32hz etc. How do you come up with these exact numbers? On my T600-4 it goes from 60-120 I think with nothing in between. Can you use test tones?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Orion525iT said:


> ~150hz. Subs in rear quarters just behind the B-pillars, stereo.


I don't understand why people use low xover points.
It's 2015, there are plenty of subwoofers that work fine with xover points above 100hz.

My xovers are generally in the octave between 100hz and 200hz, sometimes as high as 250hz.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

In my own very crude experiments last year, I could go as high as 125 with my single sub in the ski pass before the midbass started pulling to the center. The tone of it was still side to side, but the grunt was pulling center.

Again, that was very crude with only amp crossovers and polarity flipping...I didn't have anything other than 12/24 dB slopes, no EQ, no delay, sort of sealed speakers in the kicks, and no measurements. Might could have gone higher if I had more tools to play with.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

Dewey00 said:


> Some of you guys are coming up with some pretty precise numbers i.e. 63hz, 57hz, 32hz etc. How do you come up with these exact numbers? On my T600-4 it goes from 60-120 I think with nothing in between. Can you use test tones?


Either prefixed frequencies on the hu and/or an external dsp.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I don't understand why people use low xover points.
> It's 2015, there are plenty of subwoofers that work fine with xover points above 100hz.
> 
> My xovers are generally in the octave between 100hz and 200hz, sometimes as high as 250hz.


Generally most people use what works for them.....Every system and preference is a lil different. Listening volumes vary wildly too..... some folks cross small midbasses low because they listen at conversational volume, I'm not gonna tell em they have it all wrong, unless they tell me they aren't happy with what they are hearing. Myself, I listen at godawful volumes.......and I went to the trouble to instal 10" subs in the front of the car for midbass duty.....why would I want 100 hz coming through my rear subs while they are flapping like crazy to pressurize the car with the lowest of the lows? To each his own path to sonic nirvana, if you haven't experienced different paths and ideas leading to great sound.....well, it doesn't mean there isn't any. I've heard great systems leaning both ways.......crossing high and low.....this doesn't mean everybody must go about it one way........or the other.........


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

80 Hz midbass @24db and sub at 80Hz @36db slopes. I use 6 krx3 midbass and it is more snappy and tight when i cross it at 80hz unlike 63hz.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

claydo said:


> Generally most people use what works for them.....Every system and preference is a lil different. Listening volumes vary wildly too..... some folks cross small midbasses low because they listen at conversational volume, I'm not gonna tell em they have it all wrong, unless they tell me they aren't happy with what they are hearing. Myself, I listen at godawful volumes.......and I went to the trouble to instal 10" subs in the front of the car for midbass duty.....why would I want 100 hz coming through my rear subs while they are flapping like crazy to pressurize the car with the lowest of the lows? To each his own path to sonic nirvana, if you haven't experienced different paths and ideas leading to great sound.....well, it doesn't mean there isn't any. I've heard great systems leaning both ways.......crossing high and low.....this doesn't mean everybody must go about it one way........or the other.........


100% in agreement. I came to 100Hz crossover point by trial and error. Not all sub/enclosure/cabin combinations work the same. When I had a three way with 8" up front I found that the best crossover point for my subs were 40Hz, that worked for me.


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

WestCo said:


> I am going to try to do a 3 way with the midbass playing down to 25hz. Imaging should be very nice. And it's going in custom kick so rattling hopefully won't be an issue.


25 really, wow. Guess you won't need subs.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I don't understand why people use low xover points.
> It's 2015, there are plenty of subwoofers that work fine with xover points above 100hz.
> 
> My xovers are generally in the octave between 100hz and 200hz, sometimes as high as 250hz.


IMHO a lower xover point gives cleaner sound overall with a tighter and more detailed mid bass. Also fewer chances of resonance between the sub and the ears. For the lower xover to work the mid bass in the door have to be well isolated from the door. I've always got best results overall with the sub mid xover in the 50-60 hz zone. My mids and sub are crossed at 50 hz with the sub on 6th order and the mid bass on 4th order.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I don't understand why people use low xover points.
> It's 2015, there are plenty of subwoofers that work fine with xover points above 100hz.
> 
> My xovers are generally in the octave between 100hz and 200hz, sometimes as high as 250hz.


I am going to guess it has to do with install. We all know that rattles will pull the stage. But, many people are still dumping 500+ watts into a single sealed 12" which is bolted to the car somewhere or molded and coupled directly to the corner of the trunk. This causes all sorts of issues and forces lower xover points on the midbass to pull the stage back up front. 

Take two scenarios, one where the subs are bolted directly to the car, and another where the box is decoupled. I am willing to bet one can utilize a higher xover point on the latter. 

My subs are bolted to the car more or less. I tried to isolate them, but it's beyond my engineering skill right now. But my subs are push - pull slot load IB, which cuts down on vibrations. I also crammed a **** ton of cone area into the quaters, which reduces excursion. I have a total of eight 8" subs (4 per side). They are inexpensive Daytons, to keep cost down. But, they have a copper cap and only run into inductance roll off at >250hz. If I can't get to the 150hz xover with this, I will try some other tricks. But early testing is promising.


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## Grindcore (Dec 12, 2012)

Sub 50hz 36db slope and down.xls 8 in doors playing 50-250 36db slopes


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

I use 100 Hz, 12dB/oct on the subwoofer and 80 Hz 12db/oct on the main speakers. Given the response of the speakers and the impact of the car's cabin on the FR, this produces the best combination of response and power-handling in that region.


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## Ted J (Aug 15, 2006)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I don't understand why people use low xover points.
> It's 2015, there are plenty of subwoofers that work fine with xover points above 100hz.
> 
> My xovers are generally in the octave between 100hz and 200hz, sometimes as high as 250hz.


When your crossover on your sub is at 250hz what is the cross over on your front stage?


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## Ted J (Aug 15, 2006)

myhikingboots said:


> 25 really, wow. Guess you won't need subs.


That is if the midbass/woofer drivers can go down to 25 with authority and/or how loud can they can play the lower octaves.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

Ted J said:


> That is if the midbass/woofer drivers can go down to 25 with authority and/or how loud can they can play the lower octaves.


I guess 50 dbs, low cross over points are not volume friendly as well.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

^^depends on yer midbass drivers^^


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I understand, there are no fixed numbers or science setting frequencies, every car, door, door treatment and cabin is different, personal taste and RTA used to set freq and EQ will not meet some type of music or taste.

I have been reading other threads, seeing graphs and info, still I have not been able to find straight answers or confirm some thoughts.

if I try a 24 db slope, I hear less bass, does that mean a higher slope is safer or worse for a driver or make it work harder?

Is that the reason when using higher slopes like 24, 36, you can set the sub's low pass , and midbass HP frequencies lower or below 80 hz for example?

Is it true that using 12 db slopes and having to cross at higher freq, it is not a good idea to set the sub's low pass above the mid bass high pass? since it may cause resonances with certain frequencies or music ( less detail) although it helps to bring more bass up front? 

Thanks


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## nstaln (Feb 11, 2009)

"if I try a 24 db slope, I hear less bass, does that mean a higher slope is safer or worse for a driver or make it work harder?"

A steeper slope just means you will attenuate a given signal faster; 100hz lowpass @12db will decrease the signal above 100hz at a rate of 12dbs per octave, so at 200hz the signal will be decrease by 12db. If the slope is 24db per octave then the 100hz signal will be decreased by 24db at 200hz. This doesn't really make the sub work more or less hard...it just limits how much signal you will have emanating from that driver beyond your specified crossover point.

"Is it true that using 12 db slopes and having to cross at higher freq, it is not a good idea to set the sub's low pass above the mid bass high pass? since it may cause resonances with certain frequencies or music ( less detail) although it helps to bring more bass up front? "

Blending the sub/midbass is all a matter of taste/driver placement/drivers used. It is true the the higher up the frequency spectrum you go the more directional soundwaves become and the easier it is to pin-point where the sound is coming from. The lower the crossover point for the subwoofer the more omnidirectional the sound and less localized. So in that regard lower crossover points with steep slopes can help. Also having strong midbass with the ability to play low is helpful. A steep slope for midbass is good as well because you don't want to push your driver beyond it's excursion limits yet you want it to reach relatively low to blend well with the sub.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Thanks,

Basically a 24 db slope it can be crossed lower and a 12db slope higher to be able to hear sound similarity.

steeper slopes are for SQ, and 12 db slopes are for SPL, it depends on each objective. 

crossing or low passing the sub higher I assume may help the stage or blend with the fronts even if overlapping, maybe it's a give and take thing between bass localization and stage blending.

Using 12 db slopes, I may try 24 db slopes, switching to active recently just has given me headaches not only tuning but actual fatigue due to brighter sound, I had to reduce the tweeters levels a lot. My bi ampable passives gave me smoother and lower mid bass and no fatigue or headaches  still tuning


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## jdsoldger (Feb 14, 2012)

One car is at 125hz, 24db.

The other is at ~230hz and what I beleive to be second order (Using the built in high and low pass in the amp). Stereo subs, 8" in the package shelf just behind the seats.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Ted J said:


> That is if the midbass/woofer drivers can go down to 25 with authority and/or how loud can they can play the lower octaves.


It's pretty amazing how much displacement you need to do 25hz. For instance, a typical 12" woofer has about 10mm of excursion. A typical 6" woofer has about 5mm of excursion. Due to that, *a typical 12" woofer can produce EIGHT times as much output as a typical 6" woofer.*

There's a ton of things you can do to fake it:
1) Distortion makes things sound louder. This is one of the reasons I'm not 100% happy with low distortion subs. On paper, low distortion is good, but I gotta admit a high distortion sounds louder, and sometimes that's what you want.
2) You can accentuate the octave from 40hz to 80hz. That's why sub amps typically have a 'boost' function around 40-45hz. It allows you to make it louder without exceeding xmax.

But if you're not willing to fake it, "there's no replacement for displacement." And that's why I find the idea of running midbasses down to 25hz to be silly.

But, obviously, this is a subjective thing. You CAN take a high excursion woofer like the Anarchy and feed a ton of power into it. The high power will raise distortion, that'll sound loud, it will make a lot of people happy. But a twelve will do the same job with less distortion and it will sound "cleaner." But, again, not everyone wants "clean."


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

80hz 24db hipass for midbass, 63Hz 12db lowpass for sub.


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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

mine are 50 HZ 24 db per octave for both sub n midbass...but I think the speakers, the vehicle and the install method all play a role, and X-overs are something that needs tuned by ear not an RTA for best results


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## adam_rostron (Jun 14, 2014)

I've been playing around a lot with crossover points lol.

My woofers in the door are HAT L6SECarbons I have them on a 12DB BW @ 50hz.
My sub is an IDQ12v4 - Crossed at 80HZ on a 24DB LW slope. 

I'd like the ability to adjust the doors depending on music I listen to, but as I don't have a DRC for my Mosconi I don't have this ability lol.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Basically a 24 db slope it can be crossed lower and a 12db slope higher to be able to hear sound similarity.
> 
> ...


:laugh:

Can you explain this phenomenon please. Slopes and crossover points have nothing to do with the genre SQ/SPL. Phase alignment, cohesiveness and linear FR, no matter how you obtain them


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> In my own very crude experiments last year, I could go as high as 125 with my single sub in the ski pass before the midbass started pulling to the center. The tone of it was still side to side, but the grunt was pulling center.
> 
> Again, that was very crude with only amp crossovers and polarity flipping...I didn't have anything other than 12/24 dB slopes, no EQ, no delay, sort of sealed speakers in the kicks, and no measurements. Might could have gone higher if I had more tools to play with.


Same in my old eldorado. I couldn't even tell my subs were behind me playing 125hz tones, mono tones still came perfectly from the center of the dash until my head turned almost completely sideways. Subs were Acoustic Elegance AV15's, the trunk acted as a VERY steep filter above 125hz.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> In my own very crude experiments last year, I could go as high as 125 with my single sub in the ski pass before the midbass started pulling to the center. The tone of it was still side to side, but the grunt was pulling center.
> 
> Again, that was very crude with only amp crossovers and polarity flipping...I didn't have anything other than 12/24 dB slopes, no EQ, no delay, sort of sealed speakers in the kicks, and no measurements. Might could have gone higher if I had more tools to play with.


Did you notice that a high xover point gives more bulk in the sound but a lower xover point gives cleaner and better detailed bass?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

To be honest, I didn't do much more playing around with it other than just to see how high I could go. I didn't have any means of tuning other than what was on the amps. It was just an exercise to see if it would work.

It is on the list of things to try when I get the car playing again...which should be soon.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

40 @ 12 db on the subs and 63 @ 12 db for the midbass/mids. But that changes often.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

I just got a new head unit and I had to change my crossover settings as the tuning options are different. I went form a HU with a Mosconi 6to8 to a DEH80PRS and no external processor. Previously I had my subs crossed over at 125HZ and I EQ'd the higher frequencies slowly out to nothing at 125Hz. Since I can't do that now I found that I get my best sounds crossing over at 63Hz with a very easy slope and not relying on the EQ too much.

I guess the cut out frequency will largely depend on the capabilities of your equipment and how you choose to use it. Just throwing a number without context doesn't make as much sense as telling a bit of the story behind the number (along with the number, off course).


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> 40 @ 12 db on the subs and 63 @ 12 db for the midbass/mids. But that changes often.


Damn, you must have a real quiet ride dude. My clunker has a floor noise of 85 db driving down the road. The one thing that's been pretty constant for me over the years is the xover point. 50hz @ 36 db/oct for the sub and 50 hz @ 24 db/oct for the mid bass.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Damn, you must have a real quiet ride dude. My clunker has a floor noise of 85 db driving down the road. The one thing that's been pretty constant for me over the years is the xover point. 50hz @ 36 db/oct for the sub and 50 hz @ 24 db/oct for the mid bass.


Nah, I tune for SQ judging onlY which is done with the engine off and sitting still. I don't really worry about what it sounds like when I'm driving because a lot of times I'm listening to sports talk radio. Haha!


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Damn, you must have a real quiet ride dude. My clunker has a floor noise of 85 db driving down the road.


I tested the road noise in my car with a dB meter before we did the sound dampening.

85dB average @ 70mph on the highway.


Added Focal BAM, and 2 layers of CCF and MLV in the floor.
Doors got more Focal BAM, plus BlackHole tiles, and 1 layer of Luxury Liner Pro.

Tested again:
65dB average @ 70mph on the same stretch of highway.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

subterFUSE said:


> I tested the road noise in my car with a dB meter before we did the sound dampening.
> 
> 85dB average @ 70mph on the highway.
> 
> ...


Damn! I didn't know it would make that big a difference. My Accord is way too loud driving down the road. One day I will eventually do some sound proofing.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Orion525iT said:


> ~150hz. Subs in rear quarters just behind the B-pillars, stereo.


That's where I'm at now only because I previously lacked the required knowledge to choose a lower crossover point, when I get out of this Seattle Veterans Hospital May 13th (argh) the first thing I will do before making the trip back to Portland Oregon will be making a quick adjustment to the crossover/s, select channel 42 (reggae) on the Satellite Radio and thoroughly enjoy the 170 mile ride back home


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

subterFUSE said:


> I tested the road noise in my car with a dB meter before we did the sound dampening.
> 
> 85dB average @ 70mph on the highway.
> 
> ...


I need to test this, but I think my Tundra is on the quiet side.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

swap between 63 and 80


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

subterFUSE said:


> I was running an acoustic 80Hz @ 24 dB slope Linkwitz on my car.
> 
> My Beyma 8G40 midbass don't get down as low as most car audio drivers. They have an Fs = 70Hz. But I need the sensitivity to match the horns.


Makes 2of us , my Beyma's are at [email protected] but there output at 125 and above makes what little but of low end you get blend with sub so well that I can actually stand bringing my sub up to 100hz and I like it. For the first time ever I like my sub at 100hz and I've been doing it backwards thinking I could get a little 6in speaker to play to 80hz or 50hz lol ,


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Rapture333 said:


> I have been experimenting a lot lately with crossovers since I've gotten my 8 3/4" Elate drivers installed. I have to say, the combination I have going now is perfect. I have Morel Virtus 3 ways, fromt and back, with the Elate woofers up front and a Morel Ultimo 12 in the trunk. I have experimented with extremely low crossover points (25-56) and higher ones (63-80) and have found what I think is best.
> 
> One thing I've noticed is that by having a lower crossover point in your cabin woofers, male vocals sound much more present and realistic, and imaging is better. Anything 50hz and below contributes greatly to this effect. I also noticed that I have bumps in my subwoofer at 45-50hz that do add some "flavor" to the bass line. I have also experimented with various slopes, including 36/db slopes, which I found reduced resonance greatly but did not blend as well abd made drivers easy to locate. My personal favorite was 24/db although 30/db was nice as well, 24/db slopes had the best integration between the sub and midbass.
> 
> I ended up crossing my front stage over at 50hz as well as my sub, and my 6 1/2" rear stage at 71hz. This actually helped bring the bass up front by having the rear deck crossed at a slightly higher crossover point. The sub takes advantage of the bump at 45-50hz and because the x'over is at the same freq, resonance issues are minimized. Not to mention the fact that there is virtually no localization of the sub this low, I hear localization at 63hz. I also have the cabin speakers heavily time aligned with around a 17.00-19.00ms delay from the subs, which gives the illusion of bass of front. All in all I am very satisfied with the new crossover points dialed in.


Putting that much delay on a sub , so you feel the kick drum long after that note is played , or more like you feel the kick drum beat after the song has stopped and next song has started, sorry to flame and exaggerated but I tryed that a few times cause I had folks say it sounds good , but problem speaker resonances travel through the car itself at about 6000ft/sec so you feel the bass before you hear it, or hear it "blending" ... Or vice versa if delayed the opposite way , either direction you go ... im0 having the sub vibration that far out of sync with song makes it unpleasant


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

So new scan 18wu midbass were installed in my doors a couple weeks ago. These are like the 5th or 6th pair of midbass drivers I've tried recently. I currently have them crossed at 75hz LR2 and subs are 72hz LR4. For me this is the best midbass/sub integration I've heard to date. Like its all coming out of one set of speakers. The clean linear output of the scans are fantastic and I see why they have been so highly rated. With this combo I think I finally have it.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

oabeieo said:


> I've been doing it backwards thinking I could get a little 6in speaker to play to 80hz or 50hz lol ,


Like hearing your midbass in mono? Quite a few 6.5-6.75" drivers would only be ~ 2-3 db down at 50 hz. That 2-3db dip is not relevant cause your sub is making it up here. Our ability to locate sound left to right and front to back rises exponentially in the 70-200 hz zone, a low sub to mid xover point keeps this zone up front apart from keeping stereo separation in the mid bass region.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

oabeieo said:


> Putting that much delay on a sub , so you feel the kick drum long after that note is played , or more like you feel the kick drum beat after the song has stopped and next song has started, sorry to flame and exaggerated but I tryed that a few times cause I had folks say it sounds good , but problem speaker resonances travel through the car itself at about 6000ft/sec so you feel the bass before you hear it, or hear it "blending" ... Or vice versa if delayed the opposite way , either direction you go ... im0 having the sub vibration that far out of sync with song makes it unpleasant


The way I was reading his post, he is doing the opposite of what you are saying.
I think he has the sub at 0ms delay and the rest of the front speakers delayed to be after the sub.


I was recently speaking with some other SQ guys and some of them suggested I try delaying the front speakers to be several milliseconds after the sub. We were also discussing the various DSP units available and their strengths/weaknesses. A major weakness of the Audison Bit One is that is only has 12ms of delay. My Helix DSP Pro has 15ms. The Mosconi has 15ms. Some guys were saying they want future DSP models to become more like Pro-Audio processors and offer 30ms+.

I've never tried using that much delay before, but I might play around with it just for the sake of experimentation.


This is a subject which I have been running around in my head for a while. Delaying the front speakers to be later than the subs in my car seems very counter-intuitive, for a couple of reasons:

1. In my car, the subwoofer is actually the nearest speaker to the listening position when my seats are in their competition positions. The subs are in an IB wall just behind the rear passenger seats. They are about 38" from the driver's head location. My horns are 73" and 68" from the driver's head location. So my basic logic says that the sub should theoretically be delayed to match up with the farthest speaker which is the passenger-side horn @ 73".

2. The other thing is that the subs are located in the trunk, and much of their energy is tactile. Sound travels faster through solid materials than it does through air. If the effects of the sub are more "felt" than "heard", and that tactile energy is traveling through the solid materials of the car, then the felt energy might make the sub effectively even closer because the speed of sound in solids is faster than air. Using that logic, the sub needs to be delayed even more.


Anyway, I'm not saying that either of the above conclusions are correct. It's just that I've been wondering about them for a while.


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## rideon22 (Dec 4, 2011)

Image dynamics could play down to about 70 and remain crystal


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

subterFUSE said:


> The way I was reading his post, he is doing the opposite of what you are saying.
> I think he has the sub at 0ms delay and the rest of the front speakers delayed to be after the sub.
> 
> 
> ...


Wouldn't one always apply delay relative to the speaker at the farthest distance from the listening position? I have read many time members applying delay to their subs which are located in trunks. That means they should have zero delay. There may be some perceived effect by delaying a sub because it may alter the phase and crossover relationship. But it really doesn't make sense to do that as far as I understand. And in a material versus air case, it can travel faster based on density of the material. Because there are different materials in a car, some even absorbing, and the initial material vibration can because by both mechanical and air/material interface, it may actually be a messy wave. Unless one was very close this would be hard to control or account for.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

iamstubb said:


> Wouldn't one always apply delay relative to the speaker at the farthest distance from the listening position?


That was always my understanding of it, and precisely why my subwoofer always had the most delay on it. In my car, the subwoofer is easily the nearest speaker to the listening position at 38". The horns are 73" and 68" from the listening position.

My passenger side horn has always been my "zero delay" driver. Everything else delayed to match it.

While speaking to some SQ competitors, several of them suggested delaying the front speakers to be after the sub. I'm not sure if that was just a technique to align the phase better, or even whether they knew my subwoofer is closer to the listening position than any other speaker. Maybe in their cars the subwoofer is the furthest speaker and they are just using the exact same logic I am using, only reversed because of my subwoofer location?


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## Rapture333 (Jun 9, 2013)

The way I have my system set up, I have the subwoofer in the trunk (essentially under the rear right speaker), it's pretty far away from my front stage. The maximum delay on the Alpine PXA-H800 is 20.00ms for all speakers, I have the sub set at 0 and the front delayed accordingly. For the longest time I had the opposite as true, the sub delayed heavily and the front stage delayed the least. I can honestly say from my experimentation that the sub at 0.0ms and the front stage delayed in the 18ms and 19ms range sounds best (The rear speakers are delayed in the 2-4ms range). This just seems to pull the subs up onto the dash and gives the bass more presence and impact. Someone might want to try it so we can compare results, but this is what I've noticed. 

I've also been experimenting with x'over's a bit more, after some testing I knocked my mid and sub x'overs to 45hz with the mids at a 24db slope and the sub at a 36db slope. I noticed it actually makes the bass sound significantly sharper. For some reason, the mids at 36db doesn't blend well, and the sub at 24db sounds more muddied. It took a little bit of getting used to as there is a reduction in SPL to some degree, but after switching back to 24db on the sub I began to cringe as the sound just seemed unnatural. 36db definitely seems like the way to go for subwoofer slope.


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

Last week I had a day for further time/phase and eq training with a team member. He was teaching me another way to lock in the time/phase on the sub.
The front stage is in phase (time alignment) as humanly possible for us to achieve. In phase all bands are under the rear view mirror centered and stacked. Out of phase all bands are far left and far right. 
Now this is how he dialed in the subs phase (time alignment). We removed the true RTA and mic. Placed the 3055 RTA and mic in its place. Set the RTA to read spl. We ran a test tone at the x-over point (40 hz) . The reading was 103.4 db. He began adding time alignment (phase) and watching for an increase in db . As he began getting closer to being in phase (time alignment) the db began to increase. When he reached exactly +3 db he knew the sub was in time/phase with the mid bass drivers. Anymore or less phase/time delay the decibel level would drop. 
Well like all of you I though he selling me snake oil. I took a listen and the sub was planted on the dash.
Yesterday one of the Diyma members (Fishman1) stopped by the shop. I had to give him a demo. I am sure he say the same thing, the sub is very solid in the front stage.
For what it is worth, it worked. 
Greg


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## ScaryfatkidGT (Mar 31, 2012)

mines at 80, but only cuz my deck options are 80 or 60, other wise id probably have it around 71 hz


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## Extended Power (Jun 8, 2014)

BlackHHR said:


> Last week I had a day for further time/phase and eq training with a team member. He was teaching me another way to lock in the time/phase on the sub.
> The front stage is in phase (time alignment) as humanly possible for us to achieve. In phase all bands are under the rear view mirror centered and stacked. Out of phase all bands are far left and far right.
> Now this is how he dialed in the subs phase (time alignment). We removed the true RTA and mic. Placed the 3055 RTA and mic in its place. Set the RTA to read spl. We ran a test tone at the x-over point (40 hz) . The reading was 103.4 db. He began adding time alignment (phase) and watching for an increase in db . As he began getting closer to being in phase (time alignment) the db began to increase. When he reached exactly +3 db he knew the sub was in time/phase with the mid bass drivers. Anymore or less phase/time delay the decibel level would drop.
> Well like all of you I though he selling me snake oil. I took a listen and the sub was planted on the dash.
> ...


Seems like a good way to set it up for sure....but I thought the idea was to not be able to pin point where the sub is in a system?
Until I get my sub box in, I can only guess what it's going to sound like, but being that it is physically located in the center of the cab, centered between the two rear passengers feet....I hope it feels like it's coming from all around me.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Extended Power said:


> Seems like a good way to set it up for sure....but I thought the idea was to not be able to pin point where the sub is in a system?
> Until I get my sub box in, I can only guess what it's going to sound like, but being that it is physically located in the center of the cab, centered between the two rear passengers feet....I hope it feels like it's coming from all around me.


So the point is NOT quite what yu think it is…you don't want to be able to tell where the sub is physically located but you DO want the sub frequencies to be firmly located with the rest of the front stage in front of you…

In other words, you do not (well you might, but it would;t necessarily be stereophonically correct, so to speak) want the kick drums or cello/bass plucks or organ notes coming from all AROUND you but rather from where they belong within the entire front stage, right??

That being said, mounting your sub in the center of your vehicle in that awesome enclosure/console/bar table (lol) that you hand made WILL help bring the sub frequencies up front…with additional proper tuning, the drivers seat your truck is going to be like sitting right in front of the concert stage!!


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

The sub is usually in the back so we use delay to bring the sub in time with the rest of the music, sub frequencies are less directional so it's harder to tell where is where it's coming from but moving the subwoofer up front and having it mounted in a center console like that is the bomb..
Think i will move my entire vented enclosure up between the seats of my van and build a console over the top, that would be the bomb..
The ultimate time alignment


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

gstokes said:


> The sub is usually in the back so we use delay to bring the sub in time with the rest of the music, sub frequencies are less directional so it's harder to tell where is where it's coming from but moving the subwoofer up front and having it mounted in a center console like that is the bomb..
> Think i will move my entire vented enclosure up between the seats of my van and build a console over the top, that would be the bomb..
> The ultimate time alignment


I'd add a beer cooler and pizza oven! That will be the perfect enclosure!


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## Extended Power (Jun 8, 2014)

seafish said:


> So the point is NOT quite what yu think it is…you don't want to be able to tell where the sub is physically located but you DO want the sub frequencies to be firmly located with the rest of the front stage in front of you…
> 
> In other words, you do not (well you might, but it would;t necessarily be stereophonically correct, so to speak) want the kick drums or cello/bass plucks or organ notes coming from all AROUND you but rather from where they belong within the entire front stage, right??
> 
> That being said, mounting your sub in the center of your vehicle in that awesome enclosure/console/bar table (lol) that you hand made WILL help bring the sub frequencies up front…with additional proper tuning, the drivers seat your truck is going to be like sitting right in front of the concert stage!!


Thank you....I can only hope I take as much time tuning everything, as I did building it.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

15" subs, 9" midbass, 3.5" midrange

My midbass to sub is 70hz and midbass to mid is 650hz.

I installed the 9" midbass thinking I needed more in the 40-60hz range. Found out it was just a lack of tuning skills. Now I have my 9" midbasses crossed over at nearly the same point as my 6.5s they replaced. At least excursion is really low.

I've been lucky in that every sub I've used in the past few years has played well into the upper midbass with ease including the IDMax 15s surprisingly. The system sounds good and the sub is hard to locate up to about 120hz but male vocals and other things become a problem and it doesn't image as well. With a moderate crossover point and decent sized midbass, I no longer have to have a fun tune and a SQ tune though the 15s still destroy the 9s in midbass.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

iamstubb said:


> I'd add a beer cooler and pizza oven! That will be the perfect enclosure!


I don't know about that but an up firing console with dual 12's and clear lid elevated on standoffs sounds pretty cool to me, just may do something like that since I have to build a new center console anyway..


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## Extended Power (Jun 8, 2014)

BlackHHR said:


> Now this is how he dialed in the subs phase (time alignment). We removed the true RTA and mic. Placed the 3055 RTA and mic in its place. Set the RTA to read spl. We ran a test tone at the x-over point (40 hz) . The reading was 103.4 db. He began adding time alignment (phase) and watching for an increase in db . As he began getting closer to being in phase (time alignment) the db began to increase. When he reached exactly +3 db he knew the sub was in time/phase with the mid bass drivers. Anymore or less phase/time delay the decibel level would drop.
> 
> Greg


So to simplify this procedure could you:

Turn off the other channels completely. (Leaving just the sub channel active)
Turn all EQ for sub off.
Set the volume at a normal listening level. (Not 75% of max)
Play the test tone. (40hz @ 0db?)
Using the SPL meter, adjust the delay up/down until a 3db increase is measured.
Call it good?

Just looking for a quicker, more effective way of tuning the sub, as mine has no delay right now, and I'd like to try this method.


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

Extended Power said:


> So to simplify this procedure could you:
> 
> Turn off the other channels completely. (Leaving just the sub channel active)
> Turn all EQ for sub off.
> ...


We used 40 Hz because that is my x-over point between the mid and sub. Both sets of speakers are playing at 40 HZ. 100 db just so happened to be where the system level was at the time of this testing. The subs where muted until this procedure was implemented. 
Why would you defeat the eq on the sub? 
Why would you mute all other speakers if you are looking for phase/timing between the two drivers?


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## Extended Power (Jun 8, 2014)

BlackHHR said:


> We used 40 Hz because that is my x-over point between the mid and sub. Both sets of speakers are playing at 40 HZ. 100 db just so happened to be where the system level was at the time of this testing. The subs where muted until this procedure was implemented.
> Why would you defeat the eq on the sub?
> Why would you mute all other speakers if you are looking for phase/timing between the two drivers?


Sorry...I was in a rush this morning when I typed all that.

I had used a 40hz @ -5db to set the gain on the sub amp.
The sub, a 12W7, currently has a LPF of 55hz @ 24db butterworth (2 x 12db)

The mids, a set of HAT L6SE's, have a HPF of 55hz @ 24db butterworth.
I also put a LPF on the mids at 3500hz @ 24db butterworth.
The amp gain was set with a 1000hz @ 0db for the mids.

The tweeters, HAT L1 Pro R2's, have a HPF at 3500hz @ 24db butterworth, and a LPF of 18K hz @ 24db butterworth.
The amp gain was set using a 4000hz @ 0db

My concern for removing the EQ on the sub was because I thought by using the EQ, it would give a false loudness increase...but I guess if no changes are made other than delay...a 3db increase is still a 3db increase, no matter what the EQ settings are.(my bad)

My reason for muting the tweeters is just to protect them...all it takes is one "WhOOps, ****!", and I might have to look for another set.

Should/could I use a 50hz test tone to align my sub to my mids, using the same principle, and get the same results?

BTW...if you haven't guessed already...I'm Totally new to all the "Tuning" of a system, so please go easy on me.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

You want to use a frequency that is in the middle of the range that the speaker will play. I would stick with the 40 Hz tone on the subs, but go to a -10 dB overlap. You are leaving power on the table at -5 on the subs.

For the mids and tweets use a -5 dB overlap, and a frequency in the middle of their bandpass range.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Extended Power (Jun 8, 2014)

subterFUSE said:


> You want to use a frequency that is in the middle of the range that the speaker will play. I would stick with the 40 Hz tone on the subs, but go to a -10 dB overlap. You are leaving power on the table at -5 on the subs.
> 
> For the mids and tweets use a -5 dB overlap, and a frequency in the middle of their bandpass range.
> 
> ...


Thank you.
I will try that when I'm back home again.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

subterFUSE said:


> The way I was reading his post, he is doing the opposite of what you are saying.
> I think he has the sub at 0ms delay and the rest of the front speakers delayed to be after the sub.
> 
> 
> ...


That makes sense , and I agree with the logic , however any time I have put subs with that much delay against fronts the part you feel comes too early or too late , makes music sound sloppy if a kick drum is felt after it is heard from the fronts and the snap from kick drum also extends into up into 1.5k range so the making sure you feel the music at the same time as hearing it helps makes things sound tighter. If it works in your car do it, there no arguing with results., but I have never got it to work favorably at higher volumes where music is felt. At low volumes it does sound quite nice on some tracks, and you would want to think delaying sub so the wave front can modulate and form properly doesn't work in a car because it's becomes pressure changes we hear that makes us hear the lows , yes there are some 1/4 wave things going on that can help alignment but that is only part of what makes up how we hear sub frequencies. 

I would be intrested if some others would chime in on subject and explain more technically about this subject as far as strong delays on sub and overcoming what is felt not heard.


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

Can't go wrong at 80hz; always treated me well in all of my set-ups!!


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## mechatron (Sep 26, 2013)

Subs play up to 85Hz & the mids play down to 61Hz


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Haven't looked at this thread for a while, but in thinking about it, a bit, I have a questions for the collective wisdom.

I played a series of tones from 40-100 Hz to get a sense of what frequencies I was listening to through the range and the nice "kick" or punch sensation seems to occur around 80 Hz for me. I am using 6x9's as mid-bass in my front doors, which can play well below that range. That is why I crossed my sub/mid's at 70Hz, so that the sensation would not have to come from the sub, which was too far away and traveling from the trunk.

If that aspect of the mid-bass is the same for most people (I suppose it has to do with resonant frequencies in the chest of a human) wouldn't it make some sense to cross over to the sub below that point? To keep it sharp I imagine it would be important to avoid any substantial overlap that provides an opportunity for cancellation due to phase or crossover. I was thinking about bringing that crossover point even lower, say to 60-65, to keep it up close as much as possible but still not rattle the doors. 

Any thought on this?


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## Jepalan (Jun 27, 2013)

Stubb - while not specifically car audio related, there is a good discussion of 'kick' or 'punch' here:

LINK -> What is excactly is "Mid-Bass Punch" ???? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

There are a couple of assumptions in your question that should be examined.

Getting a 'rib massage' should only be about getting the right frequencies to the listener at the right SPL. It should not matter which driver (or drivers) the energy comes from.

Crossover point to me is a practical issue of getting the most power out of the components I have without distortion while also creating the best blend between drivers that avoids acoustic nulls and peaks at the listening position(s).


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

Jepalan, I agree.

And thanks for that thread, it is very informative. It looks like in general the range for that feeling is about 50-200Hz. I do think, given the less-than perfect situation, the mid-bass can better handle the transients required for the effect. I think the rib-massage effect might be influenced by the driver. So My thoughts are that the sound from a sub playing a transient spike at 80-90 Hz might come out different that the same played by properly timed mid. that thread mentioned that a lot of people are mistakenly boosting their subs, but what they really need to be doing is correcting the 50-200Hz range, and let the sub naturally fill in. Also, the 2 6x9 is a lot of cone area to generate SPL.

I did approach my crossovers from the point of view of maximizing undistorted power, but I think it was dumb luck that I settled on the 70-250 range. But from my reading I may benefit from going lower or shifting the overall window lower.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

iamstubb said:


> If that aspect of the mid-bass is the same for most people (I suppose it has to do with resonant frequencies in the chest of a human) wouldn't it make some sense to cross over to the sub below that point? * To keep it sharp I imagine it would be important to avoid any substantial overlap that provides an opportunity for cancellation due to phase or crossover. * I was thinking about bringing that crossover point even lower, say to 60-65, to keep it up close as much as possible but still not rattle the doors.
> 
> Any thought on this?



Interesting, I felt the same way. I had better results not overlapping the sub-mid so much. I cross at 75 sub and 75 midbass, I have gotten better at EQ work, and I have really moved the bass upfront and kept it defined and crisp.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I find the sweet spot between my Scan Revs and the Polk MM's to be 55hz 4th order.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Mids at 80hz 24db LR
Sub at 80hz 12db LR
Boring but it works. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

I switched from 80hz to 125hz because i got tired of the door speaker vibrating my leg at high volume. That, And finally finding a sub that can play that high and sound fantastic doing it. The side benefit in crossing that high is my system can plays quiet a bit louder now that my doors speakers don't hardly have to move.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

1fishman said:


> I switched from 80hz to 125hz because i got tired of the door speaker vibrating my leg at high volume. That, And finally finding a sub that can play that high and sound fantastic doing it. The side benefit in crossing that high is my system can plays quiet a bit louder now that my doors speakers don't hardly have to move.


And which sub is that...the BMmkIV ??


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

seafish said:


> And which sub is that...the BMmkIV ??


No, those are very good subs but not up in that range, the pioneer TS-w1200pro's are very clean, articulate and loud, but they don't play as low as MKIV. For me it was a good trade off.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

We did some experimentation on my friends Mazda Speed3. 15" Dayton sub (don't remember which one) in the spare tire well and Diamond Hex's in the front doors. With the rear seats down and the car parked and playing at normal parked car volumes there was little difference between 80, 100, 120 and 150Hz. But once the car was moving and louder volumes required (the minimum volume needed to listen with the car moving) the higher crossover was easily the best. Probably power compression on the 6.5 mid-basses I would guess. If you put the rr seats up the best crossover was 80 - 100Hz. Theoretically at 150Hz putting the rr seats up should have not made any difference in a hatch but it did.

I think what I learned from this is that:
- you need to tune your car at the level you will most often be listening at. Experiment with different volumes. Disconnect all your speakers except one and play your system at the loudest volume you normally listen to. Do this at different crossovers. I did this recently and found at that one of my tweeters was distorting badly. Do that with your tweets, mids...
- I wish there were simple rules like 'use the lowest possible crossovers' or 'highest possible crossover' but its not that simple. You need to experiment with you crossovers. Recently I changed the xo of midrange/midbass and the change was as significant as changing speakers.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Currently mids are at 60 @ 12db, sub is at around 105 @ 12 db. Can't really hear much of even really measure much on the mids below around 80hz but letting them play that lower does wonders for their tone. I want to use a higher slope on my sub but it's complicated. The sub channel on my pioneer unit is not fullrange evej with the cRoss overs disabled.. I don't know 3xactly where it starts to cut out but it doesn't play near as high as when I hook the sub to the rear channels. It's kind of agravating not knowing what's actually going on in this pioneer head unit. Why in the hell wouldn't they just make the sub channel a full range stereo pair and let us use it how we see fit. It's awkward because I never know exactly how much of what is being filtered without pullING out all the measuring equiptment.

The eq also does not effect the sub channel. There are things I like about that and things I dont. I like that I can tune the mids seperately but then I need exernal processing for the sub. Sooo looking g forward to having a permanent dsp in there.


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## Rtsr21 (Aug 12, 2014)

I have my sub at 80 24/db and mid 80 12/db. What do you guys think, I have the Hertz 165XL mid can I cross them at 63 with a 12/db slope or will that be to much for them, they have some good mid bass when I tried it, I just don't want to ruin them.


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

I got my subs at 50hz 36db slope and midbass at 50hz 24db slope


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> That makes sense , and I agree with the logic , however any time I have put subs with that much delay against fronts the part you feel comes too early or too late , makes music sound sloppy if a kick drum is felt after it is heard from the fronts and the snap from kick drum also extends into up into 1.5k range so the making sure you feel the music at the same time as hearing it helps makes things sound tighter. If it works in your car do it, there no arguing with results., but I have never got it to work favorably at higher volumes where music is felt. At low volumes it does sound quite nice on some tracks, and you would want to think delaying sub so the wave front can modulate and form properly doesn't work in a car because it's becomes pressure changes we hear that makes us hear the lows , yes there are some 1/4 wave things going on that can help alignment but that is only part of what makes up how we hear sub frequencies.
> 
> I would be intrested if some others would chime in on subject and explain more technically about this subject as far as strong delays on sub and overcoming what is felt not heard.


the last time I mic'd a kick drum during a recording session it excited frequencies WELL beyond the 1.5kHz range, more like the 10KHz range.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Niick said:


> the last time I mic'd a kick drum during a recording session it excited frequencies WELL beyond the 1.5kHz range, more like the 10KHz range.


Exactly!

And a huge reason I don't like putting gobs of delay on subs. I wouldn't want to try to delay to wavefront on a sub, you would feel the kick drum way way after it was played through rest of system, 

If I had a car that was 60 feet long than sure but I don't . I just use a sober approach to crossover phase and eq


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And a huge reason I don't like putting gobs of delay on subs. I wouldn't want to try to delay to wavefront on a sub, you would feel the kick drum way way after it was played through rest of system,
> 
> If I had a car that was 60 feet long than sure but I don't . I just use a sober approach to crossover phase and eq


Yeah, me too for the most the most part. If delay is NEEDED to achieve good transition from midbass to sub, in my experience, it's usually the midbass that gets delayed, not the sub.

HOWEVER, I have known guys who will simply add delay to the sub until the bass note they're playing (usually a sine tone centered at the xover freq.) "lands" on the dash. 

Not my method. But people do do that.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Niick said:


> Yeah, me too for the most the most part. If delay is NEEDED to achieve good transition from midbass to sub, in my experience, it's usually the midbass that gets delayed, not the sub.
> 
> HOWEVER, I have known guys who will simply add delay to the sub until the bass note they're playing (usually a sine tone centered at the xover freq.) "lands" on the dash.
> 
> Not my method. But people do do that.



lol me too . Yeah it's like When the cabin is one giant room mode that makes no sense. Not even part of the fundamental gets to you before it gets bounced around a gazillion times. 

Well , maybe We should set our headphones in the back yard so the wavefront of 20hz is correct when I listen to them...... :banghead:


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

1. Delay is between speakers. Each speaker is delayed from the furthest speaker, in each case the delay between them is what counts. 

2. 0 m/s delay on sub and 1.25 m/s delay on the near mid is the same as 2 m/s delay on the sub and 3.25 m/s delay on the mid. If you delay the sub, just delay the other speakers around it, done.

3. In a car there are practically no reflections below ~ 500 hz.

4. Early reflections don't change the tone of the sound, just it's amplitude above ~ 500.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

sqnut said:


> 1. Delay is between speakers. Each speaker is delayed from the furthest speaker, in each case the delay between them is what counts.
> 
> 2. 0 m/s delay on sub and 1.25 m/s delay on the near mid is the same as 2 m/s delay on the sub and 3.25 m/s delay on the mid. If you delay the sub, just delay the other speakers around it, done.
> 
> ...


Exactly ! 

So why would someone delay there sub by 40' to try to make the bass wave try to "catch up" . 

That never made any sense. And yes under 500 maybe 400 for some big cars the whole car is a big room mode and pressure modes make the sound. So, why would someone delay the sub so so so much. Earlier I said bounce around. I wasn't being literal . 

It's like even if you had a car 60' long (hypothetically speaking) and the sub was 60' away now the wave front would reach one cycle at 18.3hz or whatever . So now that persons would have to delay the fronts to meet the sub because , just because the wave is that long dosent mean it still is immune to speed of sound constant. That is fixed and can't be changed so . It makes no sense to add gobs and gobs of delay.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

What if the subwoofer is the nearest speaker to the listener? Should it be delayed then?

i.e. in my car, the sub is 35" from the listener. The midbass are 60-70" away.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

subterFUSE said:


> What if the subwoofer is the nearest speaker to the listener? Should it be delayed then?
> 
> i.e. in my car, the sub is 35" from the listener. The midbass are 60-70" away.


Your sub should have the max delay compared to the other speakers. The speaker furthest from you will have 0 delay.


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## AkisP (Mar 28, 2011)

I can see that most people here have set their front stage speakers at 80 or even at 60Hz, which I believe in most cases are powered by external amps! 
But what happens if for example you run front speakers amp'ed by the HU and the only thing that is externally amp'ed is a 12"sub?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I have recently gone to a 100/24 LR setting on both mid and sub.

I lost no midbass output (it's cleaner actually) and the sub is still upfront. There has been a fair amount of EQ work on both though.

80hz is really not midbass territory anyway.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

AkisP said:


> I can see that most people here have set their front stage speakers at 80 or even at 60Hz, which I believe in most cases are powered by external amps!
> But what happens if for example you run front speakers amp'ed by the HU and the only thing that is externally amp'ed is a 12"sub?


the music will be out of balance and without impact and real bass heavy, you won't like it..


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## Lord Raven (Dec 5, 2011)

Isn't there a natural roll off for every midbass driver and every driver out there? I just keep my crossover point close to that natural roll off point, around 55Hz and a slope of 24db, maximum allowed on my DSP.


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## charles.beener (Mar 31, 2016)

70Hz for the subs at 24 db and 70 with 12 db for the mid.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm normally a fan of running as high a crossover point as I can get away with, but my car has a huge suckout with a sub in the rear of my SUV at 60-64hz. It's a very narrow null, but it's huge in magnitude and runs across the car right at the headrest area (both front driver and passenger hear it). Sub facing up makes output nearly zero, rear firing does slightly better, but it's still a 10-20db dip, easily. 

So I usually cross at 60hz in this vehicle, I can't get my 6.5's up front any lower.


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

In my previous install (not too long ago) I was experimenting with high crossover points and eq'ing the subs to roll off smoothly to nothing at the high frequencies. I also tried to achieve the same thing with a low crossover point but a 6db slope and again smoothly eq'ing the high frequencies to nothing for a smooth roll off. The idea is to get the sub frequencies where the subs and mids overlap mainly driven by the mids but with a little of the sub in there as well. I don't know of this is a known technique but I like the results. The bass lines are more pronounced without being overwhelming and staying musical.

Anyone else doing this as well?


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## ryanr7386 (Feb 21, 2011)

Sub'd


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## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

I know there are differences and that bass is lost while driving but I have recently gotten into headphones. I now have grado rs1's. They fall off big at around 70 hz. I notice no loss of impact at all. The bass seems tighter. Given that, I've been crossing my 8's as low as 65 and almost going flat f.r. from 20-200. Impact great and I don't miss the bass. So, my thinking is to run mids as low as possible. I used to be on the other camp (run subs high) but in a full 3 way, I really think you can really run mid bass low.


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## Lord Raven (Dec 5, 2011)

What should be the Midbass/Midrange crossover point? ? Is there such a poll?


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm finding that one of the biggest limiting factors is door panel resonance. The lower I cross, the more resonance I get. It muddies up the sound so much it sucks. I've actually been running subless for the better part of the year and I've had my HP on my midbass at around 70hz the whole time. I guess I've gotten used to the lack of sub bass but its amazing how much musical output there is in that range. Once I get my install squared, i will be testing with higher crossover points to get the resonance out as much as possible.


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

Midbass [email protected]
Sub [email protected] <------- shallow slope really helps with the "up-front" bass illusion, just have to make sure your phase is equal to the midbass.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

What sub? It's been my experience that shallow slopes can give you thick midbass and some nice punch but it usually comes at the cost of clarity.


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