# eDead V1SE? - Be Careful



## Rudeboy

*eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

More than a year ago I ordered pieces of Elemental Designs then new butyl adhesive eDeads - V1², V1SE² and UE. At the time, the V1²'s adhesive demonstrated very poor performance and soon after, people started to report failures. V1SE² and UE had adhesives that tested well. I didn't care for any of these products because the choice to substitute a much less expensive Mylar facing for the usual aluminum foil compromised the product's effectiveness in ways I won't go into here.

A couple of weeks ago, two posters on the Realm of Excursion forum independently reported failures with eDead V1SE². One went so far as to claim that the stuff wouldn't even stick to itself when pressed together, adhesive to adhesive. The same guy claimed that ED refused to do anything to make things right. Since he was stuck with most of a roll of a product he couldn't use, I asked him to send me a sample and he obliged. A few days later a package arrived containing several square feet of eDead V1SE² in pristine condition. The physical dimensions matched the samples I bought more than a year ago.

The first thing I did was press two pieces together as described. Sure enough, it was very easy to peel them apart. Seemed very odd. The next thing I did was run my standard adhesion tests. I run one test as soon as the product is mounted on the testing surface and another after a second sample has been mounted for 96 hours. Good quality butyl adhesive creates an increasingly strong bond with time, so this is information worth having. Since some butyl adhesives are activated by heat, I attached two more samples and heated them. The adhesive bond strength results were really poor, but the stuff was at least sticky to the touch so I figured something else must be going on. The heated samples did no better than those held at room temperature.

Since it was 97°F here today, I decided to mount some test strips to the sheet metal I use for heat testing and just set it outside for the day to see what happened. Here's the starting sample sheet:








I mounted samples of the year old V1SE², the V1SE² I had just received and samples of Dynamat Xtreme as a control. I mounted a single strip and two strips stacked for each product. I angled the sheet metal mounting surface approximately 20° forward of vertical. The samples were mounted to meticulously clean metal and careful gone over with a roller. 

I put it outside, on my deck, and positioned it so that the sun only hit the back of the sheet metal. The samples were never in direct sunlight. I left the samples there from 9:00 AM until 5:00 PM. I checked the temperature of the substrate and the samples every 1/2 hour. The highest temperature I ever recorded was 120°F. 

120°F is nothing for a car sitting in the sun. A light colored car can easily reach 160°F and darker cars will get to 180°F. These are temperatures inside the doors, at the roof, etc. - all of the places sound deadener lives. 120°F should be a walk in the park.

At 5:00, I found this:








The new V1SE² samples are number 4 and 5 from the left, labeled 6-1-2009. It's a little hard to see here, but there is significant separation on the lower 2/3 of each sample. The older V1SE showed very slight separation at the very bottom and the Dynamat Xtreme looked exactly as it did when first applied.

These details show the damage more clearly:

























This is ridiculous. The adhesive formula has been changed. This stuff is guaranteed to fail. If these results hadn't been as conclusive as they were, I would have tried a curved substrate. Since it wouldn't even stick to a perfectly flat surface, that seems pointless. What I did was less taxing than a single day when installed in a car that's parked in the sun.

Using absolutely rudimentary tests, I could tell in 10 minutes that this adhesive was completely different than what I had tested a little over a year ago. This suggests, to me. that ED does absolutely no quality control before shipping. The guy who sent me the samples says that ED told him they couldn't help him because he wasn't a professional installer. It's hard to imagine how that would make any difference at all. Between the two guys reporting failures, 3 rolls were involved.

Sorry for the wordy and detailed descriptions. I've found that if I don't start that way, I end up having to provide it all later.


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## captainobvious

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

That sucks. Guess I'll make sure I dont buy there product than seeing as how it fails, AND they dont replace it with a working solution.


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## unpredictableacts

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

If they are indeed avoiding taking responsibility for the problem that does not sit good with me. Honestly anyone can sell any item, but it takes a real business minded company to back that product once it leaves its showroom/warehouse/garage.


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



unpredictableacts said:


> If they are indeed avoiding taking responsibility for the problem that does not sit good with me. Honestly anyone can sell any item, but it takes a real business minded company to back that product once it leaves its showroom/warehouse/garage.


I can't vouch for his claim, just reporting what he told me. I started a thread in the General section asking if anyone else has had experiences with this product and ED's response to it. Nobody ever reported back about what, if anything, ED did about the failed V1².


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## unpredictableacts

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> I can't vouch for his claim, just reporting what he told me. I started a thread in the General section asking if anyone else has had experiences with this product and ED's response to it. Nobody ever reported back about what, if anything, ED did about the failed V1².


Understandable....not usre why being a dealer/installer has anything to do with a failing adhesive?


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## ehiunno

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I'll be taking off the rear deck where I put some v1SE in a few days and I'll report back with the results. This is certainly unsettling. We'll see how it does in another unbiased install.

It certainly seems like it doesn't matter how cheap their stuff is, its not worth it to buy from a company with the kind of customer service ED has...


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## ClinesSelect

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Wonderful. I have about 40 sq ft that I received in a trade. Fortunately it does not get very warm here so it should be fine to use.


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## mikey7182

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ClinesSelect said:


> Wonderful. I have about 40 sq ft that I received in a trade. Fortunately it does not get very warm here so it should be fine to use.


It only hit 101* today... not too bad!  I used this crap in my Ford last year and then pulled the door panels off 2 months later to swap out components and it was peeling at the edges and several smaller pieces had actually fallen all the way off.  Sorry Dave- I shoulda told ya!


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## Electrodynamic

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Wow. Thanks for the write up and pictures. Thankfully I've done most of my car in Second Skin. *whew*


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## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

That's just terrible! For a company that sells decent amps and subs, the rest of their product line sure is lacking! And the fact that they're coming up with BS excuses to not cover product problems is unacceptable. I hope that someone from eD will chime in on this thread as I for one would LOVE to hear what being a pro installer has anything to do with the adhesive on sound deadener failing/not working at all.


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## ianbiz

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Someone needs to post this one their forums and see how fast the thread disappears or if eD will give an explanation.


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Since we were "lucky" enough to have another near 100°F day, I thought I'd give the samples another day to see if the problem got worse. I thought it might be possible that the damage I recorded before might have reached some sort of equilibrium. Nope - got worse.








After another 8 hours, the separation is worse and now runs all the way along each side of each sample. No change for the old V1SE² and Dynamat Xtreme.


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## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ianbiz said:


> Someone needs to post this one their forums and see how fast the thread disappears or if eD will give an explanation.


The thread would get deleted and your username/IP address would get banned from ICIX in less than 10-15 minutes if you were to post that up over there. eD could be a good company if they would actually sell what they advertise and if they would back up the products that they do sell. Such a shame.


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## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Boostedrex said:


> I hope that someone from eD will chime in on this thread as I for one would LOVE to hear what being a pro installer has anything to do with the adhesive on sound deadener failing/not working at all.


 
I have no quams with anyone from ed signing up to our forum.
They are welcome here just as anyone else is.
Perhaps they should be invited.
I for one won't sign up to their forum. Don't think I would last very long, but if anyone else wishes to invite an ed rep here I am fine with it. (No spamming or trolling on behalf of DIYMA please)

ANT


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## What?

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I thought all sound deadening products were exactly the same, just like the home depot roofing material. Hmmm...


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## jonnyanalog

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

i have some v1SE and its begun to peel off of my rear deck. It has been hot here in TX and the stuff is mounted upside down.... but I'm a bit surprised by this. Some could be installer error as i did not use any tools to put it down with. But come to think of it niether did my friend who used dynamat extreme in his doors and they have no issues with adhesion.... hmmm. 
we'll see how it holds up over summer.


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## jonnyanalog

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

i will be using dynamat etreme in my dooes when it comes time to install....


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## hibuhibu

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Mine fell off miserably when I used them last time.
Never will I use them.


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## simplicityinsound

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

hey Don,

see if you can get a chance to try out some V1UE, i am curious as well as how well it fairs against the Se, i myself have not used an ounce of Se for umm two years? whenever the UE came out, i switched over completely...and like i have said, i have yet to see any major failures using the stuff...

i heosntly have no reason to stay wtih Edead if it starts to fail but i honetsly havent seen it, juts to give you an example, when i ripped out my old system, my spare tire well, which was dmapened with a combination of V3 liquid, V1se (long time ago) and UE (about 1.5 years ago), looked like hte picture below, this is just pulling it out, and as you can see, i dont see much of it coming unglued? and only the floor portion was pinched against the subbox, the rest was just open, so if it wanted to come off, it could, and over the last two years, we certainly had 110 degree weather for prolonged periods of time..

just curious thats all


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



simplicityinsound said:


> hey Don,
> 
> see if you can get a chance to try out some V1UE, i am curious as well as how well it fairs against the Se, i myself have not used an ounce of Se for umm two years? whenever the UE came out, i switched over completely...and like i have said, i have yet to see any major failures using the stuff...
> 
> i heosntly have no reason to stay wtih Edead if it starts to fail but i honetsly havent seen it, juts to give you an example, when i ripped out my old system, my spare tire well, which was dmapened with a combination of V3 liquid, V1se (long time ago) and UE (about 1.5 years ago), looked like hte picture below, this is just pulling it out, and as you can see, i dont see much of it coming unglued? and only the floor portion was pinched against the subbox, the rest was just open, so if it wanted to come off, it could, and over the last two years, we certainly had 110 degree weather for prolonged periods of time..
> 
> just curious thats all


If anybody wants to send me an 8" square of recently purchased UE or V1², I'd be happy to test it and compare the results to the tests I did last year. PM me for my address.

The problem with the V1² was immediately obvious - the adhesive bond strength was extremely weak and the Mylar facing had a very strong intrinsic curl. Oddly the v1² Mylar was 3.5 mils thick vs the V1SE²'s 1.5 mils. With the adhesive removed, a 1" square piece of V1²' Mylar curled up to the thickness of a toothpick. The V1SE² curled up to the thickness of a drinking straw. The UE used a 4.5 mil Mylar with less curl than either of the other two. Since the V1SE's adhesive formula has apparently changed, I guess it is possible that UE is different now too.


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

One more note on the Mylar vs. aluminum foil debate. Everything I've seen convinces me that that foil is superior - both in terms of vibration damping and the ability of the product to act as a barrier. These features are difficult to quantify. There can be no doubt that foil and Mylar behave differently in use. Foil deforms to the contours of the underlying surface to which it is applied. Once it's installed, foil doesn't fight to resume it's original shape. 

If you want to use liquid and mat, aluminum foil is again the better choice. The logical way to combine these products is to apply the mat and then apply the liquid on top of it. The liquid will reinforce the constraining layer - improving that response. It also lets you apply the butyl adhesive, which is impervious to moisture, directly to the sheet metal instead of to the porous surface of the cured liquid. If you haven't let the liquid cure completely (takes up to 30 days), you risk trapping moisture between the mat and the substrate.

ED actually recommends applying liquid and then mat on top of it. I can not find a single supporting reason to do this. The problem is that liquid doesn't adhere to plastic very well. eDead is faced with Mylar (plastic). A shortcoming of the product requires you to follow their procedure. There's no advantage for the user.


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## Aaron Clinton

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



DIYMA said:


> I have no quams with anyone from ed signing up to our forum.
> They are welcome here just as anyone else is.
> Perhaps they should be invited.
> I for one won't sign up to their forum. Don't think I would last very long, but if anyone else wishes to invite an ed rep here I am fine with it. (No spamming or trolling on behalf of DIYMA please)
> 
> ANT


*I have been talking with an eD rep over on CA.com via PM and he has been very cool to me. He said there has not been a thread that has been edited or deleted in a long time from ICIX.*


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## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

i still need to send you samples of the stuff i have. I can't remember which i bought. i'll check online brb. i have v1^2 not the se. i'll send samples to test.


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## ErinH

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Made it to ICIX...
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?p=517651#post517651


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## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I talked with an ED rep via their online chat tool on their site before lunch. He said that they test the mat in temperatures up to 900 degrees with a heat gun and haven't had any problems like the ones in this post.

I'm not for or against this product. I've only used second skin stuff and have had nothing but great results so I have no reason to switch.


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## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

900 degrees huh? Wow, that's pretty warm. That temp doesn't sound right to me at all. Sounds like someone was blowing smoke if you ask me. I really don't mean to sound like an eD basher as I have bought stuff from them in the past as well as recommended their amps to people. But something about this whole situation just smells fishy to me.


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## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Boostedrex said:


> 900 degrees huh? Wow, that's pretty warm. That temp doesn't sound right to me at all. Sounds like someone was blowing smoke if you ask me. I really don't mean to sound like an eD basher as I have bought stuff from them in the past as well as recommended their amps to people. But something about this whole situation just smells fishy to me.


Exactly my standpoint...I run a NINe.5 in my car and I have a HT sub I built out of ED products. I like their stuff but sometimes the stuff they do just makes me sick.


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



mandos on icix said:


> Do we QC random pieces of the product here? Yes. Upside down on steel sheets and subjected to a 900 degree heat gun from about 6~7" for hours on end.


900 degrees for hours on end? The adhesive alone is a smoking pile of ash after less than an hour at 500°F - that's not unusual, but the idea that the only thing that happens after hours on end at 900°F is a slight curling at the edges is absurd.



mandos on icix said:


> Hasn't been any asphalt since about 6 months after that site went up and he knows it but that quote is still there to let people think that there is asphalt in eDead. Also, regardless of what the person who owns the site may think, we'd been researching non-asphalt eDead versions for quite some time prior to that site going up. That site is not the reason for butyl eDead no matter what anyones egos may like to think.


Well, I have changed that. I wasn't in any rush because Ben Milne himself made a point of posting on ECA that the then asphalt eDead was actually butyl. Furthermore, I had been notifying them for a year that they were drastically overstating the the weight for eDead and they never corrected it on their site. 6 months after SDS went up is incorrect.

Am I the only one that noticed that many of the objections raised on ICIX had nothing to do with this thread? Retail store? I don't know how much clearer I could have been about just reporting what I was told about ED's response and not being able to verify it independently. I sent a link to this thread to the guy who sent me the samples. Pretty much up to him if he wants to chime in. In the 2 1/2 years I have been receiving reports about eDead failing, I've heard plenty of stories similar to his, so it rang true.

We're pretty much getting the standard "irrational hater" response that is typical of ED. You only have to go back a few months to see me enthusiastically endorsing eNetic power cable on the very forum - photographs, measurements and all, only to have them substitute some lame eBay style wire with much less copper than what I bought and what they were showing in their photographs.

I absolutely stand by the results I presented here. If I was really trying to make them look bad, I would have used higher heat so that the samples failed completely. I thought it would be much more interesting to subject this stuff to stresses that were far gentler than it would ever encounter in a car. Anybody can do this - stick it on a piece of sheet metal and set it out in the sun on a hot day. If this is propaganda, how to explain the adequate performance of the year old V1SE² right next to the new stuff?

Finally, I'm not surprised that nobody who posted photos of failed V1² on DIYMA took mandos up on his "generous" offer to make good. 



mandos on ICIX said:


> Did I PM every single person on DIYMA that ever expressed any issues with any of the ² eDeads? Yup. Not a single one sent a sample in to us after being told that we need one to verify that the product was in fact defective.


Pay to send them a sample to determine if the product was defective. I laid out an exact methodology that showed that V1² was defective by design. The simplest testing showed the problem beyond any doubt. They sold it like that and now they are going to be objective about it? If I sold a product like this and was getting reports of failures, I would be asking people to let me pay them to ship samples back so I could find out what was wrong - and fix it. His procedure is designed to minimize returns. People get seriously pissed off when they invest all of the time and trouble required to sound deaden a vehicle. I very well understand their lack of interest in playing games.

The question people need to ask themselves is why would I single ED out for attack? I couldn't care less which products do well or do poorly, except to the extent that it helps or harms customers. If the new eDeads were good stuff, I would have said so immediately - especially if they represented a good value. Instead they start with tests on ICIX, mimicking SDS, supposedly showing that the new stuff was better than anything I tested. I'm a hater when I dispute their results. Then their reps start flooding the forums with claims that the butyl eDead is better than Dynamat Xtreme - false and without substantiation of any kind.

It goes on and on. ED continues to demonstrate that they know very little about sound deadener but that hasn't stopped them from continuing to sell it.


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

The inevitable claims that will follow from people who haven't had any problems with V1SE² don't address this issue at all. I have consistently stated that adhesion for the first version I tested was fine and demonstrate it on the test sheet. Oh well.


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

OK, final day of the heatwave and I gave the samples a few more hours








Some more curling - down to about 1/2 the surface area of the samples still in contact.

Now that we know ED's QC procedure, I thought I would take a stab at that. My cheap UNGAR 1095 Heat Gun doesn't have a 900° setting, just 790°F on low and 1200°F on high. I set the gun 7" from the samples and started it. Ran it for 3 minutes. At 790°F at the muzzle, the temperature was 215°F at the sample. Set it on high and got to 250°F at the sample. Just for the fun of it, I ran my hand in the hot air in front of the sample - didn't hurt at all. Ran it for 2 more minutes. Got some more curling:









So a 900°F setting from 7" is going to give you something in the low 200° range at the sample. All this temperature will do is tell you if it is asphalt or not. This is a terrible choice for a QC test. Good to know if it is asphalt, but you can do that a lot easier and more safely by dropping a small piece in mineral spirits.

THE test that would have meaning is an adhesive bond strength test. That's how I knew in just a few minutes that this stuff was completely different than the old V!SE². It is very easy to do and doesn't require any special equipment. Relative results are all that matters. 900 degrees - give me a break.


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## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



bikinpunk said:


> Made it to ICIX...
> http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?p=517651#post517651


I swear to god, spending 30 seconds at that place makes me want to gouge my eyeballs out.

Huge thanks as always Don!!



mandos on icix said:


> Oh, and nothing has changed on eDead V1² or V1SE² since they went into production. Same adhesive, same mass loading layer, same aluminized mylar constraint layer.


O RLY









The ED hater/non-hater **** is RIDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICULOUS.

The only question is: are they malicious, or incompetent? (or both)


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I was thinking that I really should have removed the


> eDead is butyl
> No it's not, please stop saying that


bit from SDS before now. Fact is, I haven't made any changes to the site since I posted it. I'm working on a new version, but it is really hard to find the time for something like that. In any case, that was aimed directly at Ben Milne who repeatedly claimed that his asphalt mat was butyl. I should have updated the site before now, but if he had never lied about it, it would not have been there in the first place. I feel a little better now


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

and the guy who sent me the samples responds on ICIX.


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## bretti_kivi

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

You want some Standartplast Vibroplast M1 to play with? How much? 

Bret


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## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



bretti_kivi said:


> You want some Standartplast Vibroplast M1 to play with? How much?
> 
> Bret


To do the full sequence, I'd need enough to cut 3 clean 6"X6" samples. Always interested in seeing new products.


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## its_bacon12

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Rudeboy, per request of seeing test result consistency, whether it's there or not, would you be able to do this again- and this time, take pictures/videos of you taking the deadener out, applying it equally to all test subjects as well as the rest of the process? And if possible, obtain as many samples of the new V1SE² as possible? I will help chip in some money for the cause if needed.


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## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Don,

If you do decide to do this test again, I'd be willing to help out as well. Just let me know.

Zach


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## ehiunno

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I've got about 1 sq foot of v1SE left from my install. I could pass it along if needed in the name of science .


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## ErinH

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ehiunno said:


> I've got about 1 sq foot of v1SE left from my install. I could pass it along if needed in the name of science .


Is it the stuff in question?

I'd be happy to compare it to some SS. I have quite a bit of it left over from a previous install.


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## ErinH

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

And just to note... 

I don't feel like posting this there b/c it seems I'll just get met with hardheadedness...

A test to failure is a test to failure. If all the mats had the same application procedure and none were tampered with, there's no reason why this test should be any less conclusive than done 'in a real world application'... whatever that's supposed to mean.


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## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Instead of all this jiba jabba....why don't we send ED a sample of the type that failed and see what they say? As of now they have stated no one sent them anything; why don't we change that? This way they will be forced to do testing and comment on the results. I would be happy to chip in for shipping costs.


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## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I used to be a lot more open minded when it came to eD and to that forum. But this latest thread over there has really gotten under my skin for whatever reason. That's extremely rare for me because I'm a firm believer that getting upset over something you read on the net is rediculous.


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## ascendotuum

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



bikinpunk said:


> If all the mats had the same application procedure and none were tampered with, there's no reason why this test should be any less conclusive than done 'in a real world application'


This is true, but IF is the key.


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## Mooble

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ascendotuum said:


> This is true, but IF is the key.


Does it matter? The problem seems to lie not with the application, but the design. No matter how you apply a foil backed dampener, it's not going to curl like that. It will always keep its shape. Maybe a better adhesive could help retain its shape longer, but the flaw seems to be in the design.


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## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ascendotuum said:


> This is true, but IF is the key.


Which is why Don spells out his rigorous procedure pretty f'n clearly. I don't understand you shills.


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## ascendotuum

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Mooble said:


> Does it matter? The problem seems to lie not with the application, but the design. No matter how you apply a foil backed dampener, it's not going to curl like that. It will always keep its shape. Maybe a better adhesive could help retain its shape longer, but the flaw seems to be in the design.


Well, what if he didn't clean the surface and some of the surface had pollen, or dust, or whatever on it? Or what if he rolled the others on, but only applied the new stuff by hand very lightly, therefore setting it up for failure? 

It seems unlikely, the guy who conducted the tests seems very intelligent. But we don't really know what his motives are, only what he says they are.

Just being a devils advocate here...


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## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Playing devil's advocate is fine, but it's pretty ****ing obvious that he preps the surfaces.

Anyone who thinks Don is biased hasn't been around very long, or is an ED fanboi.


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## ascendotuum

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

But yea, I'm done here. I have no desire to deaden anymore vehicles any time soon, so I really have no interest in how good or bad said product really is anyway. 

Basically I guess I'm just saying don't believe everything you read on the internet.

edit: It's pretty f'ing obvious that he SAYS he prepped the surface evenly.


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## its_bacon12

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Well, no matter what the test results yield, someones going to find a way to try and discredit it. But if the test is repeated, please let me know I'm more than happy to chip in.


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## ehiunno

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



bikinpunk said:


> Is it the stuff in question?
> 
> I'd be happy to compare it to some SS. I have quite a bit of it left over from a previous install.


Yep, its the stuff in question. Its not more than a month old. I am going to check out the stuff I have in my car soon to see if it is still sticking down, I guess in theory it would be a nice idea to send it in to eD if there is a major problem, but I can't imagine them finding anything wrong with it if you know what I mean.


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## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Didn't he specifically state that the surface was cleaned and all deadener types were rolled on?

Even if he didn't clean the surface it was still the SAME surface that the other types of deadener were on. That being said, the deadener still failed where the others didn't.


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## ascendotuum

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Yes.


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## Abmolech

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

It is quite simple.
Debates over the test, the people involved who said what to whom, are peripheral issues.

It is how a company handles a possible defective product arriving in the customers hands. 

Plain and simple.

Any reputable company is going to offer immediate replacement, and bear the cost of shipping. (both for the replacement and the return of the proposed defective product)

They then do a quality assurance assessment etc.

Are there people that "try" the system?
Yep
But those are usually in the minor and quite easily dealt with.
To have genuine customer complaint, is not that uncommon with batch style processes. The key is how you handle it. If you have good quality systems, they are caught "at the gate" rather than ever arriving to the customer. But it happens.
I guarantee, (no pun intended) that we have all had defective products.

I believe eD can safely remove itself from any "reputable" business. It is unacceptable practise.


----------



## ehiunno

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Look, if you are unhappy with the tests or feel as though he did something wrong, you can DO IT YOURSELF. His methods have been fully disclosed here and elsewhere, you can even design your own method of measurement if you like as long as you disclose your procedure.

The beauty of science is that it is repeatable, no one is stopping you from firing up your oven and sticking some deadener in there except yourself. It wouldn't cost you much to get some, a few bucks and eD will send you a sample, and there are numerous people on here and elsewhere that have used different products and have leftovers that would gladly send you a piece or two.

You think Don is biased, I'd like to see what YOU get when you do it

*note, thats a general you, not directed at anyone in particular.

edit: this thread is moving waaaay faster than I can keep up with!


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Abmolech said:


> It is quite simple.
> Debates over the test, the people involved who said what to whom, are peripheral issues.
> 
> It is how a company handles a possible defective product arriving in the customers hands.
> 
> Plain and simple.
> 
> Any reputable company is going to offer immediate replacement, and bear the cost of shipping. (both for the replacement and the return of the proposed defective product)
> 
> They then do a quality assurance assessment etc.
> 
> Are there people that "try" the system?
> Yep
> But those are usually in the minor and quite easily dealt with.
> To have genuine customer complaint, is not that uncommon with batch style processes. The key is how you handle it. If you have good quality systems, they are caught "at the gate" rather than ever arriving to the customer. But it happens.
> I guarantee, (no pun intended) that we have all had defective products.
> 
> I believe eD can safely remove itself from any "reputable" business. It is unacceptable practise.


i don't know any company that will eat the cost of shipping back to them for a defective product. I've always had to either return to the store of purchase or mail it in, sometimes both! Warranties exist to offer a chance to correct a defect, but if this is the case, everyone could send back product half used (the usefull parts gone) and send back the remainder asking for a refund or full replacement. You would need to send all of it back, and on your dime. They will dime it back to you though if they were at fault. If you ran a company that paid both ways, you'd have to raise your costs. significantly with the increases in shipping lately.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



its_bacon12 said:


> Rudeboy, per request of seeing test result consistency, whether it's there or not, would you be able to do this again- and this time, take pictures/videos of you taking the deadener out, applying it equally to all test subjects as well as the rest of the process? And if possible, obtain as many samples of the new V1SE² as possible? I will help chip in some money for the cause if needed.


There really isn't any way to do this in such a way that nobody can suggest that I screwed with the process - maybe if I got a priest, a minister, a rabbi and an imam to videotape me and then swear that the tape wasn't doctored? Happily for me, the heat wave is over so I have no way to produce a stable 120°F temperature.

All of the samples were mounted inside. I cleaned the sheet metal with mineral spirits, wiped it down with a dry towel and then cleaned it again with denatured alcohol and let that air dry. Each sample was stuck down, pressed in place by hand and then gone over with a roller - as evenly as humanly possible. To have faked these tests, I would have had to manipulate the Mylar to make it curl. Bombard it with x-rays?

Pollen? Sabotage? That's pretty weak. Ooh, pollen got on my sound deadener, now it doesn't work. Let's be a little bit serious. The guy who sent me the samples has now offered to send ED as much as they want. Who thinks they will acknowledge a problem? I can't think of a single case where they have EVER acknowledged a problem. Now mandos is saying I am unreliable because I didn't take the snippet about eDead being asphalt off of SDS after they changed to butyl. If Ben Milne hadn't gone out of his way to spread that lie in the first place, it never would have been there. Who's worse, me for forgetting to edit the page or him for misrepresenting his product?

Read these two posts:
eNetic 1
eNetic 2

Do these sound like somebody who is out to "get" ED? Naturally, when they pulled a bait and switch and sent people crap instead, I was seriously pissed off, but to go to this sort of trouble to get revenge? No, I just vowed that I would never give them the benefit of the doubt again. I'll also point out that this was after Ben Milne decided to act like a little girl and attack me personally. I'm sorry to see Chris (mandos) following suit. Even so, I was very skeptical of the claims being made on ROE. I had tested this product and not seen any adhesion problems. It absolutely didn't seem possible that you could press two pieces together, adhesive to adhesive and then just peel them apart. Well I'll be damned.

I could not have been any more fair in this test. 120°F? Give me a break. Any car that sits in the sun is going to see that, inside the doors, on a cool day. These tests had nothing to do with ED. People were reporting failures. My only concern was for them and others who might experience the same thing. It was a warning that this batch of this product had easily reproducible problems. 

I hope everybody's sound deadener stays in place and works for them. I feel the same way about people who have installed FatMat, P&S or the old asphalt eDead. I think it is idiotic to use these products and have a very low opinion of the people who sell them, but I absolutely hope that those who do use them don't encounter the usual problems.

This isn't my business. I only started playing around with these things out of curiosity. Plenty of people have found what I did useful. I promise you that I don't care enough about any of these companies to risk whatever credibility I have to pursue stupid grudges. When FatMat decided to add the word butyl to describe their P&S asphalt, I went after them. When RAAMmat (one of the products I specifically recommended) was selling some B-Stock of uncertain composition on eBay, I voiced concern. People have attacked me in each case.

In most cases, when I see something that looks fishy to me, I contact the company via e-mail to ask them about it. This may be talking out of school, but when I did the first round of testing, my results showed a slightly lower heat failure point for RAAMmat than they had published on their Web site. I contacted Rick, explained my methodology and asked what he thought. He explained to me how he had tested, said that mine made more sense to him and that he was going to use my numbers (which he did). He also asked me if I thought he should notify everybody that had bought RAAMmat of the change - over a 10° difference 

Similarly, when I was working out my price charts, I was really troubled by Second Skin's listings for A-Stock and B-Stock. Something about it felt fishy to me. I contacted Anthony with my concerns. His Response? "I never thought of it that way and never meant to give the wrong impression". He changed it right away. This was when there was no SDS, I was just some guy expressing concerns to both Rick and Anthony.

Now let's look at ED. The entire time they were selling their asphalt mat, they overstated the mass/area figures for both versions by more than 25%. Mandos claimed that it was because he had weighed the mat - on the core, in the box, on a broken bathroom scale. Just a coincidence that the inflated numbers matched the correct numbers published by competing products. Whatever. I sent 3 or 4 e-mails and got no response. I brought it up on forums in threads that ED reps were participating in. Those numbers were never corrected until they introduced the butyl versions and dropped that important spec altogether. Who thinks I would have gotten a serious response if I approached them with this?

So yeah, the problem with this batch of eDead is that I'm an *******. When you read the ICIX thread on this topic, ED employees state more than once that the formula hasn't changed. *They can not know that.* That idiotic heat gun test isn't going to tell them what they need to know. It may be true that they haven't specified any formula changes, but with the current cost of petroleum, all of these manufacturers are being squeezed. Changes could have been made at the manufacturer and these guys would never know. Much easier to blame the messenger.



Boostedrex said:


> Don,
> 
> If you do decide to do this test again, I'd be willing to help out as well. Just let me know.
> 
> Zach


Thanks very much for the offer. I guess you could come over and hold a video camera for the 25 hours or so that went into this, but then you'd be accused of have video manipulation skills you never dreamed you had. What ever happened to looking for the simplest explanation? I'm going to pass. We should have ED's results soon and then it will all be clear.


----------



## GenPac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> i don't know any company that will eat the cost of shipping back to them for a defective product.


*OT Warning*

NEC, Dell, HP, Samsung... just to name a few that I've dealt with in the last 6 months or so.

Notice these are all HUGE companies.
How did they get to be huge world renowned companies? Not spending their time bickering on forums and shafting the consumer with no lube.

I'm pretty sure of your angle, Spl152db... but why do you post things like


spl152db on ICIX said:


> and who says the edead that was sent to rudeboy wasn't attempted to be applied then taken back off? or that he prepped is board wrong.


Are you questioning if Don knows how to prep a surface for sound deadener?


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> If you ran a company that paid both ways, you'd have to raise your costs. significantly with the increases in shipping lately.


So you're saying costs more to run a legitimate business?

Indeed. ****ing shill.


----------



## npdang

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Don, don't let yourself get so worked up over this. You did a good job, and I'm sure there are many of us out there that appreciate your time and efforts. 

If there's anything I've learned over the years there are always going to be people that question your motives, integrity, and go off on peripheral tangents because they lack any substantive evidence to prove you wrong. 

Right now, there's no question in my mind that the ball is in their court. If they want to prove something, let them conduct their own testing and post the results for all to see. That would quite quickly and easily put an end to all this bickering.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> i don't know any company that will eat the cost of shipping back to them for a defective product. I've always had to either return to the store of purchase or mail it in, sometimes both! Warranties exist to offer a chance to correct a defect, but if this is the case, everyone could send back product half used (the usefull parts gone) and send back the remainder asking for a refund or full replacement. You would need to send all of it back, and on your dime. They will dime it back to you though if they were at fault. If you ran a company that paid both ways, you'd have to raise your costs. significantly with the increases in shipping lately.


As a business owner it is in my best interest to take care of the customer at all costs. Any company that can not see the value in it is not taking the bigger picture in to account.
This included paying for the return of defective products.

Easy for me to say though, since we do not sell defective products, but every so often UPS will bang up some product pretty good and the customer will not be happy about the condition it arrives in. Sometimes we miss and order and the customer ends up waiting for a few extra days. sometimes we don’t ship an entire order and the customer only gets enough mat to do half of their car. And every so ofter a customer will get a sheet of mateial that was the last one on the extrusion line and is a bit thin.

Mistakes happen, but when they do, we make sure to handle it the way that would impress us if the roles were reversed. What we feel is right is to give them more than they paid for and more than they expected. To WOW them.
Usually with expedited shipping or with a free upgrade in product. Either more material or better material than they ordered.

See, customer service, (and retention) is not just about giving the customer what they paid for, that is easy.
Customer service usually goes unnoticed and unappreciated until a problem arises. That is when the real test of a company’s integrity and character come out in the open. It is how the company handles these problems that truly shows us how good of a company they are.

IMO, pissed off customers are the last thing and internet based company wants to have. Word spreads too fast on the internet, and whether that word has merit or not, it is published for all to see.
Paying for our mistakes with free upgrades (like from Damplifier to Damplifier Pro for example) is a way for us to properly handle a situation that has the potential to discredit our reputation.

Eating a shipping cost or paying for a product upgrade is nothing more than a wise investment in the future of our reputation.

ANT
www.damplifier.com


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Abmolech said:


> It is quite simple.
> Debates over the test, the people involved who said what to whom, are peripheral issues.
> 
> It is how a company handles a possible defective product arriving in the customers hands.
> 
> Plain and simple.
> 
> Any reputable company is going to offer immediate replacement, and bear the cost of shipping. (both for the replacement and the return of the proposed defective product)
> 
> They then do a quality assurance assessment etc.
> 
> Are there people that "try" the system?
> Yep
> But those are usually in the minor and quite easily dealt with.
> To have genuine customer complaint, is not that uncommon with batch style processes. The key is how you handle it. If you have good quality systems, they are caught "at the gate" rather than ever arriving to the customer. But it happens.
> I guarantee, (no pun intended) that we have all had defective products.
> 
> I believe eD can safely remove itself from any "reputable" business. It is unacceptable practise.


Honest to god. The companies that jump on problems and go out of their way to make things right are the ones we all love. It's entirely possible that there are only a few rolls involved. I'd be surprised if ED tracks batches closely enough to know, but deal with it, whatever the magnitude. At some point you have to get past the: *Everything is fine, there are just a lot of people who hate us for no reason* position.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Ant, have you considered paying Don to doctor some tests, as part of a massive conspiracy to subvert ED and their superior products?


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



npdang said:


> Don, don't let yourself get so worked up over this. You did a good job, and I'm sure there are many of us out there that appreciate your time and efforts.
> 
> If there's anything I've learned over the years there are always going to be people that question your motives, integrity, and go off on peripheral tangents because they lack any substantive evidence to prove you wrong.
> 
> Right now, there's no question in my mind that the ball is in their court. If they want to prove something, let them conduct their own testing and post the results for all to see. That would quite quickly and easily put an end to all this bickering.


You are absolutely right, of course. You, of all people, understand how frustrating this can be - 

Here's what I found, take it for what it's worth

No, you're an *******.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> So yeah, the problem with this batch of eDead is that I'm an *******


...and you are responsible for global warming...


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db on ICIX said:


> and who says the edead that was sent to rudeboy wasn't attempted to be applied then taken back off? or that he prepped is board wrong.


Have you ever used eDead? The release backing is an ultra thin plastic that rolls up into a tight tube as soon as you take it off. If anybody were able to do what you suggest, I would be incredibly impressed. Install it, peel it off, make it look pristine then ship it to Don. You really have to buy into some paranoid scenarios to think anybody would do that, even if they could.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

damn.....


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Second Skin Rep said:


> ...and you are responsible for global warming...


Probably - funny thing is, I can be an ******* and this stuff will still peel off at 120°F. The two aren't mutually exclusive at all


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> Honest to god. The companies that jump on problems and go out of their way to make things right are the ones we all love. I


Absolutely....look at the Tylenol scare back in the day. I honestly think that whole fiasco was good from a PR fiasco. After that, people understood that **** happens but Tylenol was going to take every measure to make sure it didn't happen again. I mean they pulled everyone of their products off the shelf to ensure none got away. After that they enacted a triple seal safety precaution to ensure the problem ended there.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Post #66

Sorry Rudeboy

I tried to quote your post #66 and hit the edit button instead.
Ended up posting my reply in your post..

Sorry for the fat fingers.

ANT


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Second Skin Rep said:


> As a business owner it is in my best interest to take care of the customer at all costs. Any company that can not see the value in it is not taking the bigger picture in to account.
> This included paying for the return of defective products.
> 
> Easy for me to say though, since we do not sell defective products, but every so often UPS will bang up some product pretty good and the customer will not be happy about the condition it arrives in. Sometimes we miss and order and the customer ends up waiting for a few extra days. sometimes we don’t ship an entire order and the customer only gets enough mat to do half of their car. And every so ofter a customer will get a sheet of mateial that was the last one on the extrusion line and is a bit thin.
> 
> Mistakes happen, but when they do, we make sure to handle it the way that would impress us if the roles were reversed. What we feel is right is to give them more than they paid for and more than they expected. To WOW them.
> Usually with expedited shipping or with a free upgrade in product. Either more material or better material than they ordered.
> 
> See, customer service, (and retention) is not just about giving the customer what they paid for, that is easy.
> Customer service usually goes unnoticed and unappreciated until a problem arises. That is when the real test of a company’s integrity and character come out in the open. It is how the company handles these problems that truly shows us how good of a company they are.
> 
> IMO, pissed off customers are the last thing and internet based company wants to have. Word spreads too fast on the internet, and whether that word has merit or not, it is published for all to see.
> Paying for our mistakes with free upgrades (like from Damplifier to Damplifier Pro for example) is a way for us to properly handle a situation that has the potential to discredit our reputation.
> 
> Eating a shipping cost or paying for a product upgrade is nothing more than a wise investment in the future of our reputation.
> 
> ANT
> www.damplifier.com


Accolades are deserved, as i do not see this in all companies. I am eagerly awaiting eD's decision on how to handle this current issue. If it is defective, i do believe they should pay shipping, but thats not all companies standard. I've had a few refund my shipping since it was defective. Upgraded product or extra product or little benefits and perks are what makes customer relations stronger, I agree. But not all companies can be in that position. I'm not saying eD is or isn't, as i don't really know the internals of the company.


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

heres his post:

---Quote (Originally by its_bacon12)---
Rudeboy, per request of seeing test result consistency, whether it's there or not, would you be able to do this again- and this time, take pictures/videos of you taking the deadener out, applying it equally to all test subjects as well as the rest of the process? And if possible, obtain as many samples of the new V1SE² as possible? I will help chip in some money for the cause if needed.
---End Quote---
There really isn't any way to do this in such a way that nobody can suggest that I screwed with the process - maybe if I got a priest, a minister, a rabbi and an imam to videotape me and then swear that the tape wasn't doctored? Happily for me, the heat wave is over so I have no way to produce a stable 120°F temperature.

All of the samples were mounted inside. I cleaned the sheet metal with mineral spirits, wiped it down with a dry towel and then cleaned it again with denatured alcohol and let that air dry. Each sample was stuck down, pressed in place by hand and then gone over with a roller - as evenly as humanly possible. To have faked these tests, I would have had to manipulate the Mylar to make it curl. Bombard it with x-rays?

Pollen? Sabotage? That's pretty weak. Ooh, pollen got on my sound deadener, now it doesn't work. Let's be a little bit serious. The guy who sent me the samples has now offered to send ED as much as they want. Who thinks they will acknowledge a problem? I can't think of a single case where they have EVER acknowledged a problem. Now mandos is saying I am unreliable because I didn't take the snippet about eDead being asphalt off of SDS after they changed to butyl. If Ben Milne hadn't gone out of his way to spread that lie in the first place, it never would have been there. Who's worse, me for forgetting to edit the page or him for misrepresenting his product?

Read these two posts:
eNetic 1 (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333704&postcount=5)
eNetic 2 (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333723&postcount=10)

Do these sound like somebody who is out to "get" ED? Naturally, when they pulled a bait and switch and sent people crap instead, I was seriously pissed off, but to go to this sort of trouble to get revenge? No, I just vowed that I would never give them the benefit of the doubt again. I'll also point out that this was after Ben Milne decided to act like a little girl (http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?p=415437#post415437) and attack me personally. I'm sorry to see Chris (mandos) following suit. Even so, I was very skeptical of the claims being made on ROE. I had tested this product and not seen any adhesion problems. It absolutely didn't seem possible that you could press two pieces together, adhesive to adhesive and then just peel them apart. Well I'll be damned.

I could not have been any more fair in this test. 120°F? Give me a break. Any car that sits in the sun is going to see that, inside the doors, on a cool day. These tests had nothing to do with ED. People were reporting failures. My only concern was for them and others who might experience the same thing. It was a warning that this batch of this product had easily reproducible problems.

I hope everybody's sound deadener stays in place and works for them. I feel the same way about people who have installed FatMat, P&S or the old asphalt eDead. I think it is idiotic to use these products and have a very low opinion of the people who sell them, but I absolutely hope that those who do use them don't encounter the usual problems.

This isn't my business. I only started playing around with these things out of curiosity. Plenty of people have found what I did useful. I promise you that I don't care enough about any of these companies to risk whatever credibility I have to pursue stupid grudges. When FatMat decided to add the word butyl to describe their P&S asphalt, I went after them. When RAAMmat (one of the products I specifically recommended) was selling some B-Stock of uncertain composition on eBay, I voiced concern. People have attacked me in each case.

In most cases, when I see something that looks fishy to me, I contact the company via e-mail to ask them about it. This may be talking out of school, but when I did the first round of testing, my results showed a slightly lower heat failure point for RAAMmat than they had published on their Web site. I contacted Rick, explained my methodology and asked what he thought. He explained to me how he had tested, said that mine made more sense to him and that he was going to use my numbers (which he did). He also asked me if I thought he should notify everybody that had bought RAAMmat of the change - over a 10° difference 

Similarly, when I was working out my price charts, I was really troubled by Second Skin's listings for A-Stock and B-Stock. Something about it felt fishy to me. I contacted Anthony with my concerns. His Response? "I never thought of it that way and never meant to give the wrong impression". He changed it right away. This was when there was no SDS, I was just some guy expressing concerns to both Rick and Anthony.

Now let's look at ED. The entire time they were selling their asphalt mat, they overstated the mass/area figures for both versions by more than 25%. Mandos claimed that it was because he had weighed the mat - on the core, in the box, on a broken bathroom scale. Just a coincidence that the inflated numbers matched the correct numbers published by competing products. Whatever. I sent 3 or 4 e-mails and got no response. I brought it up on forums in threads that ED reps were participating in. Those numbers were never corrected until they introduced the butyl versions and dropped that important spec altogether. Who thinks I would have gotten a serious response if I approached them with this?

So yeah, the problem with this batch of eDead is that I'm an *******. When you read the ICIX thread on this topic, ED employees state more than once that the formula hasn't changed. *They can not know that.* That idiotic heat gun test isn't going to tell them what they need to know. It may be true that they haven't specified any formula changes, but with the current cost of petroleum, all of these manufacturers are being squeezed. Changes could have been made at the manufacturer and these guys would never know. Much easier to blame the messenger.


---Quote (Originally by Boostedrex)---
Don,

If you do decide to do this test again, I'd be willing to help out as well. Just let me know.

Zach
---End Quote---
Thanks very much for the offer. I guess you could come over and hold a video camera for the 25 hours or so that went into this, but then you'd be accused of have video manipulation skills you never dreamed you had. What ever happened to looking for the simplest explanation? I'm going to pass. We should have ED's results soon and then it will all be clear.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Losing stuff ...


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> Ant, have you considered paying Don to doctor some tests, as part of a massive conspiracy to subvert ED and their superior products?


Oh yes please - bring on the bribes, I'll be outside gathering my pollen


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

I am still on tilt from actually reading every post in the ICIX thread.


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> Oh yes please - bring on the bribes, I'll be outside gathering my pollen


Bwahahahaha


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I've just read through the new posts in the ICIX thread and my head hurts. They've resorted to posting pictures of retarded children as indicative of something, I'm just not sure what.

The guy who sent me samples has now sent samples back to ED. Can't wait to hear the response.

Bikinpunk is bashing his head against a wall looking for some reasonable discussion. 

The emerging consensus is that I have a grudge and will do anything to discredit ED. Apparently the reasonable extrapolation from my having said that somebody told me they had a problem. I looked at the samples they sent me and can see why, is that ALL eDead fails, ED is a terrorist organization and I want to personally murder everyone who has ever done business with them. Something like that. People have seen things in the photographs that offer absolute proof that the test was manipulated to show good results for the eDead I bought a year ago and poor results for the eDead somebody sent me. Oh yeah, my grammar sucks so I have to be up to no good.

Because my original post was overly complicated, let me summarize:


Couple of guys complained about eDead V1SE² failures on ROE
One of them sent me samples that looked exactly like the eDead I had previously purchased. Absolutely no verifiable chain of custody
I tested adhesion - it was remarkably poor
I put some on a piece of sheet metal and it peeled off, at temperatures that never exceeded 120°F
Customers, there may be a problem - be careful
ED - there may be a problem - probably ought to look into it.

That done, I brought something back for ICIX with me. This was in response to a poster reporting having witnessed the problem the guy who sent me the samples had. He went on to describe how 2 layers of V1SE² on one side of the car left a panel more resonant than a single layer of Dynamat Xtreme on the same panel on the other side of the car.



mandos on ICIX said:


> wo things, knocking on a door will show only the amount of mass attached to the panel. 2 layers of SE² weigh more than 1 layer of Xtreme. If it sounded less deadened, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with something there. That'd be like saying 2 layers of Dynamat Xtreme do a worse job of deadening a door than 1 layer. Seriously.


Seriously? This is troubling coming from the representative of a company selling sound deadener. Mass is the only factor at work? Oh yeah, kind of tough to talk about constrained layer viscoelastic damping when your product doesn't have a constraining layer. Trust me, it isn't anything "like saying 2 layers of Dynamat Xtreme do a worse job of deadening a door than 1 layer". He said 2 layers of eDead V1SE² did a worse job than one layer of Dyamant Xtreme. Not the same thing AND completely plausible.

I guess if it's OK for him to say I'm biased and working purely from that perspective, it's OK for me to say he has no idea what he is talking about.



mandos on ICIX said:


> Second, we made a video:
> 
> I'll get it redone now...it uploaded a green screen...hooray for that.
> 
> May still be converting. But you can't take eDead apart if it's been stuck together. At least not adhesive to adhesive. There's butyl in there, and Casey actually rips pieces in half. Also, unless the eDead your friend had was > 6 months old, this is from the EXACT same run. I found a piece that wasn't from the latest run(still have a few hundred feet left) just to do this.
> 
> Video will be up in an hour and a half or so because I need to leave for lunch.


I predict this video will be accepted as absolute scientific proof that eDead V1SE² is the tits and that there could not have been any bad stuff that snuck past the rigorous heat gun QC regime.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I read every post in that thread too.

Not your bad. Some of the people 'over there' are seriously small in the space between the ears....

Talk about clouded in zealousy.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

*This is the quote that lost all creditability on their end for me:




A person who owns a site that presents eDead in a false light is not presenting valid test data. Sorry.

Click to expand...

*


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



denim said:


> *This is the quote that lost all creditability on their end for me:
> 
> 
> 
> *


how so? a certain someone has a quote that edead is asphalt. it no longer is.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

The video is up! Sort of reminds me of the O.J. glove deal. Note the roller action. That much pressure is going to completely intermingle the two adhesive surfaces so it looks to me that the fact that they were able to get them apart at all sort of supports the allegation.

Why not take a sample, put it on some sheet metal and heat it to 120°F for a few hours? Maybe just to be sure and still stay within real world conditions, make it 160°F. This is getting bizarre.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> how so? a certain someone has a quote that edead is asphalt. it no longer is.


How about reading the previous posts in a thread before posting? I've already explained twice that I have taken that statement down BUT its presence was a direct response to Ben Milne dishonestly claiming in at least two posts that the asphalt he was selling WAS butyl. Excuse me for not reacting quickly enough to him coming off that lie. Yeah, a guy who hasn't updated his Web site is MUCH less credible than somebody making absolutely false claims for a product he is selling.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> how so? a certain someone has a quote that edead is asphalt. it no longer is.



How many times does Don have to repeat why this was up there?

Did you even read the thread, you shill?

edit: damn, treed by the man himself


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

^If that was, in fact, what they are currently selling I would say that the adhesive test was just fine there. They had to completely destroy the deadener to get it apart...that's a fact. It still looks think as hell though. The fact that was 2 sheets together and it still looks thin worries me.

As far as adhesion goes, again I'll say it, as long as what was used in the video is what is being sold...looks fine


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

This video does not prove anything when taken in context.

Two new pieces will not come apart.. okay.. well, in a production run you can have two pieces come off an assembly line yet still function different. Maybe the guy who makes it didn't put enough hooves in the batch that was tested here.. who knows... all this proves is that they have some that works, not disprove the stuff 'we' have that doesn't work doesn't


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BoostedNihilist said:


> This video does not prove anything when taken in context.
> 
> Two new pieces will not come apart.. okay.. well, in a production run you can have two pieces come off an assembly line yet still function different. Maybe the guy who makes it didn't put enough hooves in the batch that was tested here.. who knows... all this proves is that they have some that works, not disprove the stuff 'we' have that doesn't work doesn't


i don't believe this was the original argument, had it been just that, then fine. small roll is bad. But it was said that eD has change the whole production run of adhesive and everything new is bad. there is no proof to that, and plenty against.


----------



## skydeaner

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I've had V1SE² in my car in illinois, never garaged, so always in the sun for going on 2 years now and every time i take my door panels off none of the **** has moved, last time i took them off was last week to tint the windows. 

Just thought I would throw my experience out there.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I swear to God people, read the thread. Stop posting COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT CRAP.

DON'S OWN TEST INCLUDES EDEAD THAT DOESN'T FALL OFF.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I think what we have here is an issue which is being clouded by emotions...



> i don't believe this was the original argument, had it been just that, then fine. small roll is bad. But it was said that eD has change the whole production run of adhesive and everything new is bad. there is no proof to that, and plenty against.


I have seen one iota of proof and that was a demonstration video by E.D. Your anecdotal 'proof' is nothing more than hearsay and should be given as much weight as hearsay deserves (little hint, nothing)

I accept the test as done on DIYMA as factual. Had I not read what those zealous fans have to say about E.D. I would not have to wonder about the motives of the tester. Now that I have, I can see a bit of a motive but I must say, the zealous fan club of E.D. has brought this on themselves as their degenerate attitude fosters this kind of distaste.

Just get Dynamat, it's better anyways.


----------



## its_bacon12

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



skydeaner said:


> I've had V1SE² in my car in illinois, never garaged, so always in the sun for going on 2 years now and every time i take my door panels off none of the **** has moved, last time i took them off was last week to tint the windows.
> 
> Just thought I would throw my experience out there.


Did you notice HE SAID THE NEW STUFF DOES NOT ADHERE WELL, verses the OLD STUFF ADHERING VERY WELL.

Can you comprehend that?


----------



## skydeaner

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

They have never changed the product, so why would it matter?


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

here is the crux people..

I quoted from my response in icix..



> if the failure of this stuff is so rare why not just send out a box.. surely if you are that confident in your product you would know that it would be the only box ever sent out for this reason no?


----------



## SQfreak

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> I swear to God people, read the thread. Stop posting COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT CRAP.
> 
> DON'S OWN TEST INCLUDES EDEAD THAT DOESN'T FALL OFF.


I read this whole post and the ones on "the other sites" and I think it all can be summed up in the title of this thread. Don tested some crappy eDead, so if you bought some - be careful, it might not be up to snuff. So you might want to check it before you use it. Sheesh. I swear it takes about 15 mins of reading and critical thinking to understand this entire topic. All ED can do now is damage control, thus the vid. Pretty simple really.


----------



## its_bacon12

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BoostedNihilist said:


> This video does not prove anything when taken in context.
> 
> Two new pieces will not come apart.. okay.. well, in a production run you can have two pieces come off an assembly line yet still function different. Maybe the guy who makes it didn't put enough hooves in the batch that was tested here.. who knows... all this proves is that they have some that works, not disprove the stuff 'we' have that doesn't work doesn't


Yes, well BESIDE the face they applied that much pressure with the roller (on itself mind you, a soft rubbery substance with alot of pressure that is porous is bound to bond to itself with any adhesive worth a damn), I can't see what that has to do with in car testing anyway.

It's irrelevant to the original test.


----------



## GenPac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Where's the popcorn smiley?









Ok, continue.


----------



## SQfreak

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



its_bacon12 said:


> Yes, well BESIDE the face they applied that much pressure with the roller (on itself mind you, a soft rubbery substance with alot of pressure that is porous is bound to bond to itself with any adhesive worth a damn), I can't see what that has to do with in car testing anyway.
> 
> It's irrelevant to the original test.


Honestly, their test is as much to control loss of consumer confidence as anything else. Besides, the question now isn't if the roll Don has failed (which he showed it did) but rather if the product as a whole has serious quality control problems. Also, these don't have to linear failures. Thus, pulling some from the same batch could mean very little (though it would imply a lot to "save face"). You could have half a batch in two run from now with the same issues. I believe Don even said this in another post. If their producer has started to cut corners at random (a lot harder to trace and prove) then their entire line has to become suspect. So, be careful as any you purchase could have this issue. If I were ED I would’ve hoped that their test piece did the same thing. At least then they could’ve pointed to a single batch and said “yes it was bad and we are fixing/investigating it”. Now, however, they are left just hoping it was a fluke and doing, like I said above, damage control.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



SQfreak said:


> Now, however, they are left just hoping it was a fluke and doing, like I said above, damage control.


Just business as usual over at ED and ICIX.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> i don't believe this was the original argument, had it been just that, then fine. small roll is bad. But it was said that eD has change the whole production run of adhesive and everything new is bad. there is no proof to that, and plenty against.


Man, you are just arguing with yourself. Who ever said everything new is bad? All I've ever said is that the samples sent to me showed problems and the stuff I bought a year ago didn't. 



skydeaner said:


> They have never changed the product, so why would it matter?


This has been discussed. Even if ED didn't changed the order specs, you can't assume the product hasn't been changed by the manufacturer. That's why QC procedures and standards are important. They aren't making this stuff themselves.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



SQfreak said:


> I read this whole post and the ones on "the other sites" and I think it all can be summed up in the title of this thread. Don tested some crappy eDead, so if you bought some - be careful, it might not be up to snuff. So you might want to check it before you use it. Sheesh. I swear it takes about 15 mins of reading and critical thinking to understand this entire topic. All ED can do now is damage control, thus the vid. Pretty simple really.


Thank you. Yes, that is all that I was saying.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



> Congratulations, you're getting the thread locked.
> 
> Way to bring in personal insults with your whopping 3 posts. Shows a nice level of maturity there.
> 
> Really.



LMFAO  Well, sorry boys. Won't have to worry about me draggin the threads down as I have been banned lmfao  big loss. That's alright, personally I would prefer if my car never experienced E.D. (either form)

Those guys are a joke. I don't know how any single person could have confidence in their product when they won't even man up and back it. They would rather hide behind their jeuvenile 'senior posters' then take a position themselves. This shows that a. they have very little confidence in their own product, b. they can't take criticism of their product, and c. some of the people over there are whackjobs not even fit for do it yourselfing.

To E.D. 

Your company is destined for failure. I won't cry.



> Honestly, their test is as much to control loss of consumer confidence as anything else. Besides, the question now isn't if the roll Don has failed (which he showed it did) but rather if the product as a whole has serious quality control problems


Clearly the biggest quality control issue lies within their customer service department. Judging from their conduct I have no doubt that the person who had a failed batch was told to go **** himself. Logically, since my disciples say so, this stuff can never fail so surely it must have been the installation... 

further edit:

Surely not one of us would rag on them for having a failed batch... it happens.. but who cares, just ship a new box. Making the guy jump through hoops on this is stupid and silly. If it failed, it probably failed in a door.. well, does E.D. give a crap about the hours of labor that guy is now going to have to re-do? No, they want a sample, even though a test had been conducted.. I might add a more controlled test. E.D. Did not provide a baseline test against a competitor nor did they use the same application method. If they mean to say that their test is accurate simply because it was videotaped versus the photographic evidence provided here shows exactly the kind of manipulative marketing tactics dirtbag companies employ. It's just sad. They could have had customer service gold but they turned it into a pile of manure. 

Likely what E.D. says is true and they have not changed the composition. Even great quality control misses things sometimes. If you are trying to tell me that your record is perfect then I have to call ******** E.D. This is just not possible.

But no, make the guy send in a sample. Cost the guy now, hours of labor, postage, wait time, more hours of labor and a headache. It just doesn't make much sense and generally if it doesn't make sense it's b.s. all for the cost of a single box of product. Way to alienate potential consumers there guys. I know you guys are small potatoes and want to stay small potatoes but you guys are going to be small fries with your business strategy!


----------



## Abmolech

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

If I was in the quality control management of eD or customer service, I would be handing in my notice by now.
You cannot allow "random" employees to represent your company, and post various derogatory remarks on the internet. Its bad enough with email's being shuffled back and forth. But in an open forum?

"A good name is above the price of rubies"

Basic 101 marketing.

This about as unprofessional as you can get.


----------



## KAPendley

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I'm surprised that so many others are surprised. The stuff wont stick to tar. lol.

Besides, the entry level stuff has zero mass too it. You would be better off using duct tape.

LOVE YA BEN!!


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

What a crazy situation.

I am not sure I am following the logic of the eD guys here.

If they believed in their product they would want to protect its name an its reputation.

If I were notified that Damplifier Pro had failed, that 2 pieces could be placed adhesive to adhesive and easily remove. Everything would stop. Including my heart. I would not casually dismiss the claim that the test results were flawed. I would not make a video in retaliation to prove my point (or the point I have been making for quite some time). I would find out exactly what had happened and I would deal with it.
Right then and there.
I would pay to have UPS drive to his house and send me the entire batch, and replace it with a brand new batch that I checked out myself.
I would then run test after test on the product, and I would call my mfg and raw material suppliers and raise holy hell.
I say this becuase i konw the formula. I am confident in the product and I know it works and does not fail. If it were to fail, that would mean that somthing changed in the formula and that we did not do the QC that is expected with a premium line of products.

There are a few things that can ruin a batch of adhesive. Some additives can spoil, and some measurements can be off. Too much filler and pass the cpcv and both adhesion and the elastomeric value are shot.
I once had a vendor that used to make our Spectrum coating change the formula and not tell us. This little change saved him $.50 per gallon but made the product lose adhesion after 3 days. 
You can imagine how the conversation went that day.

What I don’t get is why would a company not be interested in getting to the bottom of the story?
Why risk it?
It makes no sense to put the burden of proof on the customers shoulders.
Asking a customer to send the bunk product back to eD so that they can test it themselves then dismissing the customers claims when the samples are not returned is total ********!

Again, if they believed in their product they would want to protect its name and its reputation. Seems like they are more interested protecting their asses than protecting their future.

Great video btw! 

ANT
www.secondskinaudio.com


----------



## its_bacon12

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I think that since eD's revenue is only in a small part made up of their deadener, that's why they didn't pay much attention to it. This is my speculation only, seeing how they sell many other products. Now, Ant, you have a customer in me for life, as well as all my local contacts.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



its_bacon12 said:


> I think that since eD's revenue is only in a small part made up of their deadener, that's why they didn't pay much attention to it. This is my speculation only, seeing how they sell many other products. Now, Ant, you have a customer in me for life, as well as all my local contacts.


They claim to have sold 1/2 million square feet of the new stuff alone, so it isn't insignificant.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> how so? a certain someone has a quote that edead is asphalt. it no longer is.


*Wow, what was I thinking, out of all the different brands, Don is making it his mission to take down eD one failure at a time.


I mean seriously, Don did the SDS as a free service as a reference for everyone to use. He is working on another version. If you think he is purposing fixing the results or biasing the performance, then that is sad. If Don was sponsored, paid for the test, or worked for any other deadener brand then that approach might hold some water. But take a moment and remove your eD fanboy attitude and take a step back and see that Don did a simple test from a sample that was sent to him in a simple set up and it failed. Big deal, get over it, eD either needs to take care of the customer at hand or improve the product.

It is really funny how there are no cases of failure with Second Skin, Cascade, RAAMAT, Vertex etc. But plenty of cases of failures of eDead, and all the eD followers are so fast to call all of those cases fake, fabricated or slanderous in nature. I agree with a lot of what BoostedNihilist says in his first post in the topic on ICIX.


Edit: I agree with an earlier statment, eD's best move would be to stop trying to disprove the failure, not make the customer pick up the extra charges to ship, at this point the customer either needs to be refunded the total price of the product and shipping, or send a new box from the same batch that apparently worked in the video. There is nothing more to it.

And now seeing ICIX being ICIX, the thread got locked there and it seems to be the same routine. I can see over these years why I have joined countless forums but never ICIX.*


----------



## el_chupo_

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Time to join the fun. 

Capnxtreme, you seem to be taking this too seriously. Chill, doesnt matter if people post about their experiences. Its the internet.

truth is, it was probably a bad batch, and they honestly had no idea. They do take a lot of bashing, deserved or not. They defended accusations, and good for them for trying. Did they handle it as well as they could - maybe not, but its not my business, so not my call. I find it humorous that a bunch of people online tell them how to do things, when they actually have (what appears to be) a pretty successful setup. Seems they are doing something right. And I dont need to hear everyones individual reasons or expertise. 

Who cares? Seriously? Don, thanks the tests and for throwing up the site, I learned from it.

I have some Edead in my jeep, probably first run of the SE2. I put it on the floor and horizontal surfaces. In the doors, and wheel wells, and roof, I have Damplifier. Not for the stickiness, or whatever, but from me doing alot of reading, then calling up Ant and talking to him. He answered honestly, about the +'s and -'s of his products (in his eyes, AFAIK, none of this has ever been "Scientifically" tested) and the benefits and downsides of other brands, including Edead and dynamat. 

All that I have read and seen says I will be using Second Skin again. Regardless of the good experience I have had with EDead, or the this test, which really only shows a bad batch, as Bikinpunk kept trying to point out.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

ANT,

10 seconds at ICIX reveals the problem: their rabid, senseless fanboys will continue to support the business, and foam at the mouth even in the face of irrefutable evidence. Like trying to dissuade cult members from their faith, we bash our heads into the wall even attempting a logical discussion with these people.

Just keep doing how you do and keep this place how it is. Members and champions like Don will continue to serve the community, and those that don't value legitimate businesses or sound practices can head over to you-know-where.

chupo, don't be retarded. The bad batch isn't the issue. Rick has had a bad batch of Raammat before, yet we <3 him. Why? Because he deals with customers like a stand-up dude, not a circus clown.


----------



## npdang

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> ANT,
> 
> 10 seconds at ICIX reveals the problem: their rabid, senseless fanboys will continue to support the business, and foam at the mouth even in the face of irrefutable evidence.


Don't go giving Ant any ideas now!!


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

IF U R QUESTIONING ANT DEN U ARE OBV SSDIYH8R STOP H8N


----------



## dogstar

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Second Skin Rep said:


> ...and you are responsible for global warming...


I thought Canada was getting blamed for that?

eD used to earn some of my business, but gents.... This isn't the first time they've bent a customer over, it won't be the last time either.
The poor clod from ROE is going to send in samples of his edead and they're going to "test" it and deem it "installer error" and tell him he's **** outa luck.

What I find most amusing is that eD is perfectly willing to take your money over the internet, and perfectly willing to pour ******** into your ears over the internet, but they aren't willing to help you resolve a problem over the internet.
WTF??
I'm sorry eD, I'm the freakin customer. 
It's my money and I get to say how I interact with you, the business who wants my money.

If I want to send you snail mail through a forwarding office in Zimbabwe, I should be perfectly entitled to do so with the understanding that it'll take a long ass time.

Sigh... eD, you fools...


----------



## el_chupo_

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> ANT,
> 
> 10 seconds at ICIX reveals the problem: their rabid, senseless fanboys will continue to support the business, and foam at the mouth even in the face of irrefutable evidence. Like trying to dissuade cult members from their faith, we bash our heads into the wall even attempting a logical discussion with these people.
> 
> Just keep doing how you do and keep this place how it is. Members and champions like Don will continue to serve the community, and those that don't value legitimate businesses or sound practices can head over to you-know-where.
> 
> chupo, don't be retarded. The bad batch isn't the issue. Rick has had a bad batch of Raammat before, yet we <3 him. Why? Because he deals with customers like a stand-up dude, not a circus clown.



The problem is, the bad batch is exactly the issue. Don didnt start this to stir up Ed fans/opponents, he did this to say there is some Edead that isnt working properly. How customers respond on an internet forum was NOT the point of the SDS...
Post 98 from Don


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by SQfreak View Post
> I read this whole post and the ones on "the other sites" and I think it all can be summed up in the title of this thread. Don tested some crappy eDead, so if you bought some - be careful, it might not be up to snuff. So you might want to check it before you use it. Sheesh. I swear it takes about 15 mins of reading and critical thinking to understand this entire topic. All ED can do now is damage control, thus the vid. Pretty simple really.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. Yes, that is all that I was saying.
Click to expand...


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



el_chupo_ said:


> T
> 
> truth is, it was probably a bad batch, and they honestly had no idea. They do take a lot of bashing, deserved or not. They defended accusations, and good for them for trying. Did they handle it as well as they could - maybe not, but its not my business, so not my call. I find it humorous that a bunch of people online tell them how to do things, when they actually have (what appears to be) a pretty successful setup. Seems they are doing something right. And I dont need to hear everyones individual reasons or expertise.
> 
> All that I have read and seen says I will be using Second Skin again. Regardless of the good experience I have had with EDead, or the this test, which really only shows a bad batch, as Bikinpunk kept trying to point out.


I agree. It was probably just a bad batch. Every manufacturer, even those following a 6sigma code, will inevitably release a defective product at one point....**** happens. And when it does they should make things right. They have a right to defend their product because it defines their brand. But, telling a customer the product he is holding in his hands is without a doubt functional when he knows it's not, is lunacy. 

However, they should not have belittled any failures reported with the product. Let's say that ImageDynamics get's a call from me and I tell them my IDMAX was DOA. Imagine if they told me that the IDMAX design was fine, my test was wrong, and then proceeded to shoot another video of subs they had in the shop working fine. As a customer, I wouldn't give a ****, all I care about is that my product doesn't work as advertised and I want to know what they are going to do to remedy the situation.


----------



## backwoods

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I've never been shy about going after ED, their original "investment program" was as crooked as I have seen, and since then, I've never been interested in supporting them in any way.

but, this needs to be taken for what it was. A failed product with a heresay history. Even though I think Don picked an appropriate screen name, I do not doubt his test. But, the history behind the product is unknown, as well as the communication/interaction with ED.

Take it for what it is, a lesson that it is possible for a product to slip through QC or be damaged in an irrepairable manor. 

Really, everything else has become a religous argument.

Only other tidbit I found interesting, was the "testing method" that ED performs. Have to admit, I chuckled at the heat gun...although, what else would I expect from ED?


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Whoops. Head spinning from reading ICIX indeed.

Sorry el chupo and Don.

It just makes my head spin that anyone would support these clowns, emotions aside. Look at how they deal with customers.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> Way to completely miss the point once again.
> 
> Since when is Don the issue? ED is the issue. PLEASE, stop being retarded. Don didn't do it to "stir" up anything--look at the wording of the title, as well as his posts--he did it to help the damn community.


I'm pretty sure that's the same thing el_chupo_ was saying. I understand that your head is still spinning from engaging on ICIX, but everybody needs to take a deep breath. Hopefully, most people will have gotten the message that if you are about to install eDead, test a small piece first, just to be sure.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ItalynStylion said:


> I agree. It was probably just a bad batch. Every manufacturer, even those following a 6sigma code, will inevitably release a defective product at one point....**** happens. And when it does they should make things right. They have a right to defend their product because it defines their brand. But, telling a customer the product he is holding in his hands is without a doubt functional when he knows it's not, is lunacy.
> 
> However, they should not have belittled any failures reported with the product. Let's say that ImageDynamics get's a call from me and I tell them my IDMAX was DOA. Imagine if they told me that the IDMAX design was fine, my test was wrong, and then proceeded to shoot another video of subs they had in the shop working fine. As a customer, I wouldn't give a ****, all I care about is that my product doesn't work as advertised and I want to know what they are going to do to remedy the situation.


Here's what I take from this. It would be much better if everybody, including me, had kept emotional responses out of this. Sometimes there's just too much water over the dam. It does point out the value of printing a logo and ideally, a batch number on products like these. 

I probably shouldn't have repeated the story about ED's response on the phone, but since it had been posted elsewhere, I didn't give it much importance and emphasized that I didn't know it to be true.

A very high percentage of what comes into a discussion like this has no bearing on the topic. Makes it difficult to sort things out and maintain a clear head.

I still find ED's response inexplicable. Insisting that the product has not changed at all since it was first introduced doesn't make any sense. They have made it absolutely clear that the only basis for this statement is what their manufacturer has told them. That's not enough. It's especially puzzling because V1² seemed to have problems from the beginning. That simple demonstration and clear instructions on how to reproduce is, as well as several reported failures in the wild, should have triggered an investigation and probably a reformulation.

In this specific case, I think a better response would have been to try to reproduce the problem. If they honestly couldn't do that, explain that you couldn't and take the initiative to get some samples from the people who are complaining. I completely understand people's reluctance to package some up and pay to ship it back to ED when they are already looking at wasted time, effort and money. ED's response is pretty close to putting your fingers in your ears and chanting: "I can't hear you". There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation, but if the company doesn't address things in good faith, we may never know.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Here's some good news for anybody who wants to try this test. It doesn't take a 100°F ambient temperature to heat the samples enough to see results. It's 85° today and since the sky is clearer, the samples are now at 125°F after just 15 minutes. The bad news is that roof of my silver car, which has only been in direct sunlight for 1 hour, now reads 158°F.


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

How are you reading temperatures? Infared heat tester?


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I'll bet I could get the test metal up to like 200degrees here in Tx!


----------



## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

It's supposed to be 100 degrees and sunny here tomorrow and Saturday. I bet I could get some nice temps on the test metal.  But I'm sure that I would not be able to resist and I'd probably soak the eDead in acetone overnight before I tried to put it on the test panel.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



> Here's what I take from this. It would be much better if everybody, including me, had kept emotional responses out of this. Sometimes there's just too much water over the dam. It does point out the value of printing a logo and ideally, a batch number on products like these.


exactly

What separates us from them is the fact that we can/do take responsibility for acting childish. It's sad I think ICIX is downstream from a water factory and the dam gates are shut.. there will always be too much water over the dam over there. I wish they could elevate their discussion to above grade 5 level so some of these issues can actually be resolved. I too took part in the emotional response but apparently that is all some of those 'over there' understand. Sorry for going there my bad, I prefer to be a part of the solution rather than the problem.

That being said when presented with scientific evidence they threw it out the window and instantly started attacking credibility which is the least credible thing you can do in customer service... what a clusterfuck


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ItalynStylion said:


> How are you reading temperatures? Infared heat tester?


Yes, with the sensor always in the shade. Goes crazy if the sun hits it directly. It's proved to be quite accurate. It's really fascinating to measure different areas of the car in sunlight. Measuring the air inside the passenger compartment never tells the real story of what sort of temperatures sound deadener gets exposed to in real world use.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BoostedNihilist said:


> exactly
> 
> What separates us from them is the fact that we can/do take responsibility for acting childish. It's sad I think ICIX is downstream from a water factory and the dam gates are shut.. there will always be too much water over the dam over there. I wish they could elevate their discussion to above grade 5 level so some of these issues can actually be resolved. I too took part in the emotional response but apparently that is all some of those 'over there' understand. Sorry for going there my bad, I prefer to be a part of the solution rather than the problem.
> 
> That being said when presented with scientific evidence they threw it out the window and instantly started attacking credibility which is the least credible thing you can do in customer service... what a clusterfuck


It's hard not to get swept away. I think you were a convenient excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Boostedrex said:


> It's supposed to be 100 degrees and sunny here tomorrow and Saturday. I bet I could get some nice temps on the test metal.  But I'm sure that I would not be able to resist and I'd probably soak the eDead in acetone overnight before I tried to put it on the test panel.


Interestingly, soaking in acetone doesn't do that much to butyl. I've done exactly what you described, dried it out and it was in pretty good shape - still sticky. Don't know what it would do to Mylar though. You need to soak it in mineral spirits if you want to really tear it up


----------



## Boostedrex

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> Interestingly, soaking in acetone doesn't do that much to butyl. I've done exactly what you described, dried it out and it was in pretty good shape - still sticky. Don't know what it would do to Mylar though. You need to soak it in mineral spirits if you want to really tear it up


So that's how you got it to fail repeatedly! I knew I could trick you into telling. Just like a James Bond flick. ROFL!!!!

You know Don, after thinking about all this over night I have just decided to wash my hands of that forum. I still maintain that eD sells pretty decent amplifiers. But their customer service and their minions have pretty much steered me away from that company. 

The people that needed to see this thread saw it, and hopefully it will keep them from getting ripped off. That's what is important at the end of the day.

Zach


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I still dont get all this. Yes I am new here, Yes I frequent ICIX, but am I a fanboy, NO! I only use their deadening, and have used it for the past 2 years with no problem.

Like previously stated, if it was a bad batch, it was a bad batch, every company has something go wrong at some point, and yes it might happen acouple times. Yes they might have not handled it the best in everyones eyes, but if it was my company and no-one sent a said faulty product back to me then I would do to much either.

I still dont understand why it wasnt sent back? If I purchased it and it was bad, and even if the comapany said something in the nature it was my fault, I would ship it back then call my CC compant and dispute the charges so they wouldnt get my money. And yes I would spend $5 to send a piece back to have it checked, but thats just me.

I know alot of people have alot of hatred for ED, that will prob never change. But some of the blame should be on the build house, just like when they had a prob with the flat cones subs, no-one blamed TC Sounds who made the subs, they blamed ED, yes its ED's name on the sub but they didnt really build them, but i do agree they could have stood behind their product better.

Anyways I am not here to stir anything up, I would just like to see everyone move on, I do have some edead at home that was purchased recently that I will do alittle test on before I apply it to my car, and I thankyou for the heads up that something might be wrong.

i know that alot of people on ICIX think ED is the best product ever, I dont agree, i think they make good products for the money, best in the world no way


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

The dude with the original problem has said he is shipping the samples.

If you put your name on a product, and sell it to the public, it is YOUR responsibility to stand behind it, period.

And, obviously, the only reason anyone buys anything ED is cause of the price. And why is the stuff so cheap? 1) they don't design anything themselves, 2) they don't build anything themselves, 3) they don't do QC, 4) they don't stand behind their product.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Boostedrex said:


> So that's how you got it to fail repeatedly! I knew I could trick you into telling. Just like a James Bond flick. ROFL!!!!
> 
> You know Don, after thinking about all this over night I have just decided to wash my hands of that forum. I still maintain that eD sells pretty decent amplifiers. But their customer service and their minions have pretty much steered me away from that company.
> 
> The people that needed to see this thread saw it, and hopefully it will keep them from getting ripped off. That's what is important at the end of the day.
> 
> Zach


From all I've heard, their amps seem to offer pretty decent value. The sub I crated up for BryanWescoe to ship to npdang looked solid and Dang liked it. My problems with them have been about them being uninformed and sometimes outright dishonest about eDead and then eNetic. Beyond that, Ben Milne's seeming compulsion to exaggerate his role in product design and manufacturing is both amusing and counter-productive.

Part of their success has undoubtedly come from convincing newcomers that they have a personal relationship with the company. There is also an aspect of their customers wanting to believe that they are part of an elite that has unique access to state of the art equipment at bargain basement prices. That also fuels the us vs. them mentality with a heavy dose of everybody else is stupid if they make other choices.

The personal connection - which I'm sure is very real in many cases, also contributes to creating some of their most vocal critics, those who feel betrayed. Almost like jilted lovers taking every opportunity to curse the dirty whore. There's definitely a strong feeling of adolescent crushes and heart break. These overwrought emotions are then played upon by Ben Milne - raise a question and you are one of the irrational haters.

The entire thing gets tiresome. When you are a teenager, your love life seems fascinating and exciting. When you get a few years older you realize that there is a lot to be said for keeping things on an even keel.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BeatsDownLow said:


> I still dont get all this. Yes I am new here, Yes I frequent ICIX, but am I a fanboy, NO! I only use their deadening, and have used it for the past 2 years with no problem.
> 
> Like previously stated, if it was a bad batch, it was a bad batch, every company has something go wrong at some point, and yes it might happen acouple times. Yes they might have not handled it the best in everyones eyes, but if it was my company and no-one sent a said faulty product back to me then I would do to much either.
> 
> I still dont understand why it wasnt sent back? If I purchased it and it was bad, and even if the comapany said something in the nature it was my fault, I would ship it back then call my CC compant and dispute the charges so they wouldnt get my money. And yes I would spend $5 to send a piece back to have it checked, but thats just me.
> 
> I know alot of people have alot of hatred for ED, that will prob never change. But some of the blame should be on the build house, just like when they had a prob with the flat cones subs, no-one blamed TC Sounds who made the subs, they blamed ED, yes its ED's name on the sub but they didnt really build them, but i do agree they could have stood behind their product better.
> 
> Anyways I am not here to stir anything up, I would just like to see everyone move on, I do have some edead at home that was purchased recently that I will do alittle test on before I apply it to my car, and I thankyou for the heads up that something might be wrong.
> 
> i know that alot of people on ICIX think ED is the best product ever, I dont agree, i think they make good products for the money, best in the world no way


Welcome to DIYMA!


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

*In response to Beatsdownlow*

^I only really disagree with the fact you say that the blame should be on the build house. I don't think that is the case at all. If I see a product I know doesn't work and try to pass it off like I didn't know any better and it's the OEM's fault that is shady and wrong. If I wasn't aware of it's faults it's not nearly as bad, but, I should have done quality control to identify these faults before sending ANYTHING to a customer I value....assuming I actually value the customer


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> Welcome to DIYMA!


thanks for the welcome, i hope to become a contributing member here on DIMA


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ItalynStylion said:


> *In response to Beatsdownlow*
> 
> ^I only really disagree with the fact you say that the blame should be on the build house. I don't think that is the case at all. If I see a product I know doesn't work and try to pass it off like I didn't know any better and it's the OEM's fault that is shady and wrong. If I wasn't aware of it's faults it's not nearly as bad, but, I should have done quality control to identify these faults before sending ANYTHING to a customer I value....assuming I actually value the customer



I was not trying to say blame the build house only, I think we can partially blame them since they actually made the product, In all it is ED name on the product, and they should stand behind it better than they did IMO.

I have had a few problems with their subwoofers, so I stopped buying them, but I did get 2 of the 13av for my HT subwoofer and havent had any problems with those yet


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

^yeah, don't get me wrong...I have a 13OV2 and a Nine.5


----------



## dogstar

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BeatsDownLow said:


> I still dont get all this. Yes I am new here, Yes I frequent ICIX, but am I a fanboy, NO! I only use their deadening, and have used it for the past 2 years with no problem.
> 
> Like previously stated, if it was a bad batch, it was a bad batch, every company has something go wrong at some point, and yes it might happen acouple times. Yes they might have not handled it the best in everyones eyes, but if it was my company and no-one sent a said faulty product back to me then I would do to much either.
> 
> I still dont understand why it wasnt sent back? If I purchased it and it was bad, and even if the comapany said something in the nature it was my fault, I would ship it back then call my CC compant and dispute the charges so they wouldnt get my money. And yes I would spend $5 to send a piece back to have it checked, but thats just me.
> 
> I know alot of people have alot of hatred for ED, that will prob never change. But some of the blame should be on the build house, just like when they had a prob with the flat cones subs, no-one blamed TC Sounds who made the subs, they blamed ED, yes its ED's name on the sub but they didnt really build them, but i do agree they could have stood behind their product better.
> 
> Anyways I am not here to stir anything up, I would just like to see everyone move on, I do have some edead at home that was purchased recently that I will do alittle test on before I apply it to my car, and I thankyou for the heads up that something might be wrong.
> 
> i know that alot of people on ICIX think ED is the best product ever, I dont agree, i think they make good products for the money, best in the world no way


Problem with blaming the buildhouse, partially or entirely is: Who is the buildhouse?
eD would have you believe they mine the ore to make the alloy to cast the magnets and frames and refine the oil to mold the cones and blah blah.
If you ask eD they "build" all their own stuff.

If you want to take that kinda ownership of the product, your gonna take a smackdown when there is a problem.

If eD was to fess up and say "there was a problem with this batch of eDead, our manufacturer messed up and the adhesive is crap", then this whole thread would have been resolved in two pages.


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I think its only their deadener thats poopy....

I have no complaints on their amps, other than they do eat a bit of current. If you think their subs are poopy, I guess you hate Image Dynamics too :runs&hides:. That wire thing, was outright dishonest, I dont even think they hinted why it was at 40% off.


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Megalomaniac said:


> I think its only their deadener thats poopy....
> 
> I have no complaints on their amps, other than they do eat a bit of current. If you think their subs are poopy, I guess you hate Image Dynamics too :runs&hides:. That wire thing, was outright dishonest, I dont even think they hinted why it was at 40% off.


Oh yeah, I love my Nine.5 it's great. No trouble whatsoever and tons of raw power. But, when I got mine I noticed the manual was about the dumbest thing I'd ever read. I sent ED this picture and they said it was because they don't write the manual and it's been translated. Quality control is a must for any business. You don't want to put out a dysfunctional product or something that will make you look stupid.


A dual 2 ohm sub paralleled is 1ohm? That could give an amp some trouble


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

*Why not rewrite the manual?*


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I've thought about this topic a little more. One issue is ED's QC procedure:


mandos on ICIX said:


> Do we QC random pieces of the product here? Yes. Upside down on steel sheets and subjected to a 900 degree heat gun from about 6~7" for hours on end.
> 
> Has it ever peeled here? Yup, probably about 1/32" on the outer edge of any piece curls slightly due to the fact that at those temps the mylar backing is constricting. Plastic + super high heat = shrinkage...much like heat shrink.


I'm going to assume that this test was designed in a sincere effort to spot problems. I've already mentioned that for butyl, heat tolerance is about the third thing you should be testing, but there's no reason to think ED would know that.

I've described my attempt to duplicate the test and my estimate of a 900°F heat gun setting yielding ~ 220°F at the sample. Beyond that, even though the facing doesn't contain enough aluminum to constitute a constraining layer, there is enough shiny stuff in the Mylar to reflect some of the heat away from the adhesive. *You want to test the adhesive's heat tolerance*. The most failure prone installation locations receive heat from the back - doors, roof, trunk lid, quarter panels, etc. The force of the air from a heat gun is going to apply force to the front of the mat while it it is heating it.

The bit about the curling being caused by the Mylar "constricting" when heated seems odd. Heat shrink does shrink when heated, but assuming Mylar behaves in the same way as a material specifically formulated to shrink when heated and contrary to most other materials' tendency to expand when heated seems like a real stretch (excuse the pun). Heating may be encouraging the Mylar to curl, but I've seen no evidence that it has shrunk at all. It's chicken and egg question - does the heating increase the Mylar's tendency to curl, or does it weaken the adhesive allowing the Mylar to curl? Doesn't really matter.

More interesting to me is inexplicably closed thread on ICIX The OP asks about ASTM-E756 for eDead. This question is relevent to but doesn't reference this statement:


mandos on ICIX said:


> Two things, knocking on a door will show only the amount of mass attached to the panel. 2 layers of SE² weigh more than 1 layer of Xtreme. If it sounded less deadened, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with something there. That'd be like saying 2 layers of Dynamat Xtreme do a worse job of deadening a door than 1 layer. Seriously.


The linked thread has some very good reference links to ASTM-E756 (Oberst Bar) testing standards that some may find interesting. Having these test results for every product would be incredibly useful. Unfortunately, at $600 per sample, it isn't something I'm going to undertake. I did have an idea to act as a clearing house so that manufacturers could send samples to the lab and pay for their own products to be tested and the lab would send me certified copies of the results. Found zero interest.

Valid test results would be very helpful, but the problem has been in how some companies have used these numbers in the past. Unless we can be sure that the standards were followed, we can't know if we are comparing apples to apples. Look around at the test results published. How many cite the actual test results and report? I've only ever seen one. Manufacturers are not going to publish numbers if they are going to be compared to bogus results published by others. You can't blame ED for not providing these results in this context. You can blame them for thinking and promoting the self serving notion that mass is he only factor at work in vibration damping.


----------



## machinehead

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

It doesn't matter who designed or built the products you are selling, in the end it has your name on them and its up to you to fix any problems. If you want to blame a build house, fine, but you still have to fix the problem.


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

About the mylar shrinking...I think most thin plastics DO shrink when they come in contact with extreme heat. I know the package that Ramen comes in will shrivel up if you hold it about 3 inches over the stove. I always tried to do it evenly so it looked like I had a mini package of ramen 

One thing concerns me....who was stuck holding the heat gun for 6-7 hours?


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ItalynStylion said:


> One thing concerns me....who was stuck holding the heat gun for 6-7 hours?


probally hooked up to a stand or something


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

An oven would be my preferred method....has a temperature control and everything


----------



## GenPac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ItalynStylion said:


> An oven would be my preferred method....has a temperature control and everything


remind me not to accept cookies from Stylion's oven...


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ItalynStylion said:


> An oven would be my preferred method....has a temperature control and everything


What kind of world do you live in? Who has access to that sort of cutting edge technology? Hold on a minute, I'm cooking lunch and need to go throw another log on the fire.


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



GenPac said:


> remind me not to accept cookies from Stylion's oven...


I've had worse in there...ever have to get headlight housings apart?


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



> Plastic + super high heat = shrinkage...much like heat shrink.


I'm no physics genius.. but don't things generally expand when you heat them?


----------



## ItalynStylion

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BoostedNihilist said:


> I'm no physics genius.. but don't things generally expand when you heat them?


See a couple posts up....


Have none of you set plastic on fire? What did you do as children?


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I've taken another pass at this. I peeled off the old samples, cleaned the surface and mounted a larger sample, rolling it down with all of the fervor demonstrated by the ED guys in their video. I then let it sit for 2 days to make sure the adhesive bond had a chance to "mature". I set up the oven to hold a temperature between 165°F and 175°F and stuck the samples in for 45 minutes. Took it out and here's what I got:










The Mylar had peeled back 5/8", to give you a reference for scale. It seems pretty obvious what is going on (all disclaimers about chain of custody, verification, etc. still in place). Having already measure the adhesive bond strength to be less than 1/6 the strength of previous V1SE² samples, it looks like the adhesive can't resist the curl of the Mylar. You can see that in some places, the Mylar broke away from the adhesive and in others, the adhesive was pulled away from the substrate as well. Adding layers is going to increase the stress and the vibrations it encounters in the real world may add to the problem.

Leaving out any consideration of the effectiveness of Mylar vs. aluminum, this all seems to come down to weak adhesive. Nothing left to do but wait to see what ED does with the samples they should have by now.

Note: the older samples of ED and the Dynamat Xtreme continued to have no problems at all.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Looks like another thread was started over at ICIX edead fail again
Its_Bacon is trying to keep the conversation going.

ANT
www.damplifier.com


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

it is locked now


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

How is the teklite?

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=55


Is it a better substitute for the overkill and ensolite?


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Megalomaniac said:


> How is the teklite?
> 
> http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=55
> 
> 
> Is it a better substitute for the overkill and ensolite?


There's no way to really know - they have steadfastly refused to say exactly what it is. Teklite is ED' brand name for something else. Ensolite MLC is a specific product so it's easy to find detailed specs. Overkill is Second Skin's brand name for something else too, but they provide pretty detailed specs. ED won't say what Teklite really is and don't provide any information beyond flowery descriptions. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm not crazy about buying foam with a PSA. Why not just use your own contact cement and know exactly how it is going to respond?

Update on the point of this thread. The guy who sent me the samples also sent some to ED. When he didn't hear back from them a week after they called to tell him they had received the samples and would test them the next day, he called, left a message and got an e-mail saying they hadn't been able to reproduce the problem. So all is good! Who are you going to believe- ED or your lying eyes?


----------



## Sassmastersq

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I'm stunned... eD didn't admit the problem???? no way!


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



> got an e-mail


That's funny, I thought ED didn't use the internet for customer service.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Megalomaniac said:


> How is the teklite?
> 
> http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=55
> 
> 
> Is it a better substitute for the overkill and ensolite?


Teklite is a decent product. Nice because it has the adhesive attached to to.
What it actually is, is a closed cell weather stripping. They buy it in bulk, before the mfg runs it through the slitter.
Just like masking tape. That starts out a 54 or 60 inch rolls and then is slit in to smaller increments which you can buy at the hardware store.

Overkill and Overkill Pro are very similar to Raammats ensolite product.
Ensolite is actually the name of a company though. There are several hundred ensolite products under that brand name. Overkill is a an ensolite product by proxy since the company that makes it for us owns the ensolite company. One of many rubber and foam companies to serve the automotive industry.

ANT


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

hmm just a fancy weather stripping: o my


----------



## dogstar

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

So eD refuses to admit to the problem.... no real surprise to me, but sucks for anyone who bought this batch, and sucks for eD because there are going to be a LOT more "eD sucks" posts in the near future when people's deadener falls off.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Rudeboy
I thought you were going to make video of the 2 samples peeling off of one another.
Was that you?

DIYMA


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



DIYMA said:


> Rudeboy
> I thought you were going to make video of the 2 samples peeling off of one another.
> Was that you?
> 
> DIYMA


Wasn't me, that was a friend of the guy who sent me the samples. I'm waiting for him to forward the e-mail and will post it when it arrives


----------



## DejaWiz

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Very nice re-review. 

I'm not surprised in the least. eD = junk in/junk out. They remind me more of a company that sells cheap chinsy Chinese imported plastic party favors than a company that deals with high quality consumer electronics.


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



DejaWiz said:


> Very nice re-review.
> 
> I'm not surprised in the least. eD = junk in/junk out. They remind me more of a company that sells cheap chinsy Chinese imported plastic party favors than a company that deals with high quality consumer electronics.


your funny. most your "high quality" consumer electronics come from where? china, japan, korea... and most the stuff we get over here would be considered crap over there. check out the japanese or chinese version of the websites for some of the products you buy like car radios. pioneer, kenwood, they have completely different lineups, that actually have more features, would cost less, and look a lot better (some).


----------



## its_bacon12

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> your funny. most your "high quality" consumer electronics come from where? china, japan, korea... and most the stuff we get over here would be considered crap over there. check out the japanese or chinese version of the websites for some of the products you buy like car radios. pioneer, kenwood, they have completely different lineups, that actually have more features, would cost less, and look a lot better (some).


He never specified the high quality electronics can't come from China.. China makes piss poor quality stuff in large quantities and also make some excellent electronics as well. 

As far as more features, costing less, and look better - the features again is a preference thing. More features doesn't make it better.

Looks: you're really bringing in your own opinion to make an argument? That's now how it works.

And cost, it would obviously be cheaper over there where it's manufactured than to come overseas, through tariffs protecting our own industries against more inexpensive imports. Not to mention the declining value of the dollar as a world currency, exchange rates are becoming less favorable for holders of the USD.


----------



## DejaWiz

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

^ exactly. A lot of "high quality" consumer electronics do come from China (incl Taiwain), S Korea, and Japan, yes. However, most of the reputable brands have something that eD obviously lacks: Quality Assurance.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



spl152db said:


> your funny


No, *you're* funny.

**cough** QA **cough**


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Here is ED's test results report:


Chris Schempp via e-mail to the guy who supplied the samples said:


> Dear (guy who sent Don the samples)
> We received your samples of eDead on Monday from the USPS. Upon receipt we placed samples on a metal can used for the liquid eDead and placed it in direct sunlight on top of our power transformer outside. We left the samples there until Tuesday at about 12:30PM. At that point in time, all the samples were still stuck to the container and had the very edges curling ever so slightly. At this point we turned on our propane grill at the shop and set it to a medium heat. The thermometer inside the grill measured about 325 degrees for the 5 hours that the samples were inside the grill. The grill was opened 3 times to check for failure of the product.
> 
> We were not able to experience an actual product failure, but rather the adhesive between the mylar and the aluminum had begun to melt/burn out. The deadener itself was still fully adhered to the can except for a slight curl of 1/32~1/16” along the outer edges of the surface. None of the samples that we have done anything to have actually fallen off of metal, and none of them have done what Dons pictures claim to be showing with the mylar layer being completely removed in a normal ambient temperature outside.
> 
> How exactly was the eDead stored between January and when it was actually installed? Also, how was the surface prepped for deadening?
> 
> We would love to take care of this situation in a manner that would be satisfactory to you, however, when we are not able to reproduce the problem which occurred with you, it is very difficult to simply send a replacement of the product. Please let us know your prep and installation steps, as well as how the deadener was stored through the last winter and we will proceed from there.
> 
> Please note, due to the posts regarding your alleged previous phone call, we will not assist you with this matter via any support system other than e-mail. I do apologize if that is not satisfactory to you, however, it is the only way we have of maintaining a complete record of everything said, by both parties involved.
> 
> I look forward to hearing from you soon.


With these photographs attached:

























*"and none of them have done what Dons pictures claim to be showing with the mylar layer being completely removed in a normal ambient temperature outside."*
I never claimed any such things - this is why I get aggravated. There is no doubt that ED tested for failure at outside ambient temperature (before) grilling the samples ??? By putting the samples on a can, and a can with a highly reflective surface at that, they made it impossible for the sheet metal behind the sample to heat up in the sun. I was very clear that I had the sun BEHIND the sample, unshielded by a second surface, and measured temperatures at the sample of 120°F-125°F. That paint can protected the surface behind the sample and the reflective surface of the eDead would also reflect heat away from the adhesive if the sun hit it directly. 

The important point was not that I put the eDead outside, it was that it showed significant distress after exposure to 120°F - much lower than temperatures routinely occurring in a car at the sheet metal. They tested eDead at whatever the ambient temperature in Iowa was that day and recorded no temperatures at all.

Putting it in the gas grill at 350°F doesn't tell us anything. Testing at that temperature only reveals the quality of the adhesive based on its durability. With eDead, the adhesive will have been petrified very quickly. Meaningless, despite my having e-mailed Chris easy instructions on how to reproduce my results. 

I can only conclude that the tests performed demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about the conditions products like these see in actually use or that they were designed to prove there was nothing wrong. Readers of this thread will have to decide for themselves if I have so little to do that I'd be willing to spend hours satisfying a vendetta against ED or if just maybe, I saw a potential problem and wanted people to be aware of it. Better yet, if you have some eDead and want to be sure for yourselves, test it first to be sure. To be really sure, put some on a piece of sheet metal and bake it for a few hours at 160°F-180°F. If it doesn't have problems it should be OK in all but the most extreme conditions.


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

didnt survive in maryland..hmm? no chance it would survive here in TX 


btw, i noticed the sides were curling on that can, but I also i noticed on my SS it _doesnt _do that one slightest bit?


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

omg, what tools. Thanks again Don.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

*I don't think anyone believed that eD would ever show or admit failure of a product. So where does this leave the unhappy customer? Is the customer screwed? Will eD make any concession or offer to make it right or make the customer happy? 

I know the answer but I thought I would ask.*


----------



## ogahyellow

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

What's funny to me is that eD had Don's methodology, and instead of trying to duplicate it and come up with a different result, they applied their own method. The whole point of an experiment is that it is verifiable. Good luck trying to do what eD did. Didn't anyone pay attention when they scientific method was explained??? 

The funny part is that the deadener still peeled. 

Also, gotta love how they locked both versions of the thread. I don't go on icix, but can someone update if they have posted these results to the forum? 

BTW: Here's some properties of mylar, it does expand with heat. But I have noticed that some plastics shrink when you heat them, maybe its a change in chemical structure. http://www.yutopian.com/Yuan/prop/Mylar.html & http://www.grafixplastics.com/mylar_prop.asp


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



denim said:


> *I don't think anyone believed that eD would ever show or admit failure of a product. So where does this leave the unhappy customer? Is the customer screwed? Will eD make any concession or offer to make it right or make the customer happy?
> 
> I know the answer but I thought I would ask.*


He's been offered $.84 per running foot of unused material (paid $1.60), shipped at his expense. He's not thrilled.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



ogahyellow said:


> What's funny to me is that eD had Don's methodology, and instead of trying to duplicate it and come up with a different result, they applied their own method. The whole point of an experiment is that it is verifiable. Good luck trying to do what eD did. Didn't anyone pay attention when they scientific method was explained???
> 
> The funny part is that the deadener still peeled.
> 
> Also, gotta love how they locked both versions of the thread. I don't go on icix, but can someone update if they have posted these results to the forum?
> 
> BTW: Here's some properties of mylar, it does expand with heat. But I have noticed that some plastics shrink when you heat them, maybe its a change in chemical structure. http://www.yutopian.com/Yuan/prop/Mylar.html & http://www.grafixplastics.com/mylar_prop.asp


Yeah, thanks. I expected one of three responses - not to me (I'm evil), but to the guy who sent me the samples, since he was dealing with them directly.


Ignore the entire thing
Show that my methodology was faulty
Approximate my methodology and show different results

I expected them to want to know whether or not they had a problem. I'd love to know if ED has discussed this with the manufacturer.

I haven't seen the topic resurface on ICIX, but I don't visit often enough to know. I did find this thread pretty interesting, but probably more applicable to this thread in our DIY Other Audio section. If you haven't read ED's speaker/sub warranty, I'd recommend it. Aside from a warranty that they say is for 5 years actually specifying 36 months, it is chock full of ED goodness


----------



## fonque

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Using this woofer for any purpose in any environment it was not designed for voids warranty (ripped spiders, burned voice coils, melted/torn joints, ripped surround, cracked cone, and ripped or cut tinsels are clear signs of this), this includes input of power not recommended for usage.

is there anything else that can be wrong with a sub??


----------



## Sassmastersq

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

what do you expect? it's there to cover their ass, not yours.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Sassmastersq said:


> what do you expect? it's there to cover their ass, not yours.


Well, that's half of what a warranty is supposed to do . My favorite bit - other than the 5 year warranty lasting 36 months is this:


ED Warranty said:


> We are not responsible for packages we don't know why we are getting them.


I know what he is saying but you gotta love the way he said it.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Final note on the eDead V1SE². ED's rep and others have suggested that I doctored these results to make them look bad. How exactly would I do that without deforming the adhesive or the Mylar? Has anybody tried to peel the facing off of one of these products? I have and it can't be done. The only way I've found to get clean samples of the facing is to dissolve the adhesive away with mineral spirits. I'd really love to hear some theories about how I did this other than that I have "dark powers".


----------



## GenPac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Maybe ANT will offer to trade this guy's bad eDead for some SS in trade for an unbiased review? Talk about PR!

eD denies faulty product, offers to buy back at 1/2 cost w/o shipping... Competitor steps in and offers to swap for their product...

Make it public, make it visible, eD will look even worse.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> Final note on the eDead V1SE². ED's rep and others have suggested that I doctored these results to make them look bad. How exactly would I do that without deforming the adhesive or the Mylar? Has anybody tried to peel the facing off of one of these products? I have and it can't be done. The only way I've found to get clean samples of the facing is to dissolve the adhesive away with mineral spirits. I'd really love to hear some theories about how I did this other than that I have "dark powers".


The fact that they didn't even bother to follow your procedure (nor the scientific process), and instead, invented their own ******** test, is why we don't need to hear any theories. Although I'm sure they would be amusing.

Anyone who supports this company deserves to be ridiculed.

GenPac,

ED is digging their own grave. I know you're just bs'in, but I can't see how your suggestion would be in Ant's interest.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



GenPac said:


> Maybe ANT will offer to trade this guy's bad eDead for some SS in trade for an unbiased review? Talk about PR!


I'd be happy to take care of the guy.
All he needs to do is send me an email. No need to write a review or try to bring ed down.
I just hate hearing about people getting taken advantage of by my industry.
It is unfortunate.

[email protected]

ANT
www.damplifier.com


----------



## GenPac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> ED is digging their own grave. I know you're just bs'in, but I can't see how your suggestion would be in Ant's interest.


I was looking at it from a spin perspective. As far as it being in Ant's interest, its' relative... can you put a price on positive PR?

It was just an idea, and yeah, I was 60% bs'in but with as little product as the guy likely has left, I'm sure the guy would like to catch a break. He's already paid for the failing product, paid to ship some (twice?) to Don and paid to ship some back to eD.
Offering him 84c a linear ft and making him eat shipping (again) is pretty sad and makes me aware of the aggrevation the guy must be feeling.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I shouldn't have said anything, not my place. I do feel sorry for the dude.


----------



## Aaron Clinton

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> He's been offered $.84 per running foot of unused material (paid $1.60), shipped at his expense. He's not thrilled.


*That is better then normal I believe. But highly doubt with out your test or the large exposure it got that the result would be the same.*


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



> We insure you get a world class driver at a incredibly low cost, *whether or not you take care of it is up to you.*


bold... Childish and unprofessional. I have never read any such b.s. in any warranty policy ever. This really shows where ED's customer service philosophy is based... we ship the best effin stuff ever for a wicked rad deal if anything is wrong with it it has to be you... what a joke.



> Using any amplifier or speaker in SPL competition automatically voids any warranty expressed or implied


Lol.. that made me laugh



> Sending back a driver to eD with a absence of any of the following can / could / will result in a void warranty.


So, which one is it? Does this mean you treat some customers different than others?



> Packaged shipped back to eD in anything but the original packaging will be refused and returned to sender.


In regards to the thread regarding the sub being damaged in shipping. E.D. diregarded a bold item in their own policy, therefore the entire policy is void. In a contract you cannot break a 'single' clause and expect the rest of the contract to be valid. By accepting a subwoofer in anything but the package they request, they shoulder full liability and responsibility for that package. Their out was sending it back in it's packaging to the customer, without opening, accepting, or inspecting the internal contents. Obviously children run this company.



> Elemental Designs speakers are priced in ROCK BOTTOM fashion


apparently, this is how their customer service department works. At this point I do not trust a word out of their mouths and highly doubt the speaker was in fact damaged during shipping.



> When we make a mistake we work our very best to fix it. However because of numerous scams, unsavory experiences, and so on there will be no exceptions to the above stated.


I'll translate

"Because we made so damned many crappy products we realized that when we make a mistake we have to work very hard to find a solution that benefits us. So, we will make a policy for every instance to ensure that we never have to accept responsibility for defective products thereby enabling us to actually make money because our price point is screwed and we have a hard time actually making money if we have to honor our 'industry leading' warranty"

The more I read about this company the more it looks like a teenager running a business out of his parents basement.


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



denim said:


> *That is better then normal I believe. But highly doubt with out your test or the large exposure it got that the result would be the same.*


I just got an e-mail this morning from him and he's absolutely delighted that:

This thread has had 4500 views
Anthony comped him a bulk pack of Damplifier Pro

He said he is not going to take ED's offer, but he is going to send them the packing slip from Second Skin and thank them for helping him get some good deadener


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



> Sending back a driver to eD with a absence of any of the following can / could / will result in a void warranty.
> 
> Original Packaging. Anything sent back MUST be in the original packaging.
> RMA Number. Anything be shipped back MUST have a RA number clearly marked on the package.
> Original Sales Receipt. We do not keep these for you. It is your responsibility to keep track of them. Sending equipment back to us without a original sales receipt will result in a void warranty.
> Shipped via UPS, FedEX, or DHL. Any shipments sent via USPS will be refused.


My reaction to a lot of this was very similar to BoostedNihilist's. Aside from the unintentionally funny stuff - is there really a legal or any other important distinction between "can" and "could" - I'd be very surprised if a lot of this is legally defensible. Some of the items in the list might be grounds for declining service, but VOIDING the warranty? If you send them a photocopy of your sales receipt, they are claiming the right to void your warranty. 

I don't think they can require the original packaging either, since many warranties I've read talk about the original packaging being ideal, but then go on to tell you how to proceed if you don't have it. Now that I think about it, I think that language shows up in shipping directions and isn't part of the warranty at all.

This isn't to suggest that many people haven't had problems resolved to their satisfaction, but the terms set forth in their warranty don't leave you much recourse.


----------



## dftnz7

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Well I have to ship my ID mids into ID for warranty, and I have to eat the shipping to ship them out there...

Pretty much every time I have ever had to send anything back for warranty, it was on my dime on the way back. I think that is pretty standard.

And for the couple guys that have small companies here who claim you would pay every time someone wanted to send you something, it is probably a lot different when you start having idiots sending you bunches of destroyed/abused items on your dime, expecting warranty. 

I am not defending ED here, but most of the time the shipping back to the company will be absorbed by the consumer. This isn't just something ED does.


----------



## ehiunno

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Certainly hate to bring this thing back to life, but when I pulled my rear deck lid... I had the same peeling back of the mylar that has been reported here.

I've sent some pics to eD so we'll see how that goes... I want to wait and see what they say before I post too many details here. Initial contact has been positive though, they seemed moderately concerned that I might have a problem.


----------



## Sassmastersq

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

the aluminum foil has rotted off of my V1se.. mylar might have stood up better


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Sassmastersq said:


> the aluminum foil has rotted off of my V1se.. mylar might have stood up better


What does that mean (aluminum foil rotting)?


----------



## GenPac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> What does that mean (aluminum foil rotting)?


Too much exposure to moisture?


----------



## fredridge

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

dang, how old is that stuff?????
http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/al.html

Half Life
Al-26	730000.0 years

must have been the first batch of aluminum eva





Sassmastersq said:


> the aluminum foil has rotted off of my V1se.. mylar might have stood up better


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



fredridge said:


> dang, how old is that stuff?????
> http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/al.html
> 
> Half Life
> Al-26	730000.0 years
> 
> must have been the first batch of aluminum eva


Counterstike on eD!


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

OK



latest e-mail from Chris at ED said:


> XXXXXX,
> 
> I’d like to apologize for the amount offered per foot in the previous e-mail. I had apparently viewed the eBay V1² auction pricing when I stated we would offer $.84/foot, when your order was SE² and would be $1.34/foot.
> 
> As you have not replied to that e-mail, I can only assume that you were unhappy with the initial offer, and I likely would have been as well. However, in viewing that old e-mail I noticed the error in the math and I do apologize for that.
> 
> Again, the same stipulation on the roller applies.
> 
> 
> Chris Schempp
> Elemental Designs


I'll leave it to others to answer the question that always seems to come up in these situations.


----------



## ehiunno

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

That Al excapade was a good laugh.

Well lets see how this turns out for him. eD still hasn't emailed me back and I sent the pictures yesterday of my failing v1se. They were quick to respond the first time however.

I'll post all of the emails once I hear back.


----------



## capnxtreme

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> OK
> 
> 
> 
> I'll leave it to others to answer the question that always seems to come up in these situations.












or










?


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



capnxtreme said:


> or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


I wondered how many would know what I was talking about


----------



## ascendotuum

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> I wondered how many would know what I was talking about


I still have no idea...


----------



## Duce2k

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

This is what has happened to my V1SE2 after a couple months, this is in the trunk and on the trunklid, I will be opening my doors to install components in the next week or two I will see what condition they are in when I do. It doesn't seem too bad but as you can see it's curling at the edges.


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I wonder if you just foil tape on the edges, it can keep it from curling..


----------



## Duce2k

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

It probably would, if I use my finger to smooth it out it sticks back together for awhile but I guess once it gets some heat it curls again, but as far as entire pieces falling off that hasn't happened so far, and these are upside down pieces.


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36888


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Megalomaniac said:


> http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36888




















Can anybody figure out how this test is set up or exactly what they are trying to measure? Mixture of blocking and vibration damping? I guess the speaker is inside the can farthest from the mic? The mic is centered on the empty can and then everything shifts to the right and the mic is off center in the second video. I'll definitely be interested to hear what people think. 

I would have liked to see each material/combination tested a few times to see if the results actually are repeatable and it would be helpful to see the results from some competing products. As it is, the conclusions drawn remind me of when I worked in advertising and a print ad for Kellogg's Corn Flakes came in for testing. It featured a bowl of cereal with milk and the headline: *Kellogg's Corn Flakes = 100% Nutrition!* with an accompanying chart that showed the percentage of nutrients contributed by the milk and the cereal. All of the columns added up to 100% because the bowl was the universe  In the ED universe, combining all of their products comprises the perfect solution.


----------



## el_chupo_

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



Rudeboy said:


> Can anybody figure out how this test is set up or exactly what they are trying to measure? Mixture of blocking and vibration damping? I guess the speaker is inside the can farthest from the mic? The mic is centered on the empty can and then everything shifts to the right and the mic is off center in the second video. I'll definitely be interested to hear what people think.
> 
> I would have liked to see each material/combination tested a few times to see if the results actually are repeatable and it would be helpful to see the results from some competing products. As it is, the conclusions drawn remind me of when I worked in advertising and a print ad for Kellogg's Corn Flakes came in for testing. It featured a bowl of cereal with milk and the headline: *Kellogg's Corn Flakes = 100% Nutrition!* with an accompanying chart that showed the percentage of nutrients contributed by the milk and the cereal. All of the columns added up to 100% because the bowl was the universe  In the ED universe, combining all of their products comprises the perfect solution.



I have a degree in marketing. You can make anything sound like anything, as you know.

I agree with you that it is an odd test, and that it would be nice if it were repeatable, and if they compared others products. Fact is, their edead adds mass to a panel. This will dampen some noises. It may not be as good, but its probably fine on a flat, horizontal surface (ive had no issues with mine in my jeeps floor). I will probably use it again on a floor situation, simply because its cheap, and it will work. Second skin got my business for the new car, and will get it when my wife gets a new car, even without any forum discounts.

I hear enough good CS stories that I realize the bad ones are just that, bad situations. I dont expect them to be perfectI do also know that the forum discount price for edead V1se2 is 1.28 per foot, so the buy back offer doesnt suck as much...

I think it was a bad batch, as you clearly stated in your initial review. That is all.

PS, again, thanks for doing the whole SDS.


----------



## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

Why this company uses test like this is absurd.
BBQ Grills, Bathroom scales, Paint cans with speakers.. no serious company would ever consider such methods as reasonable..
Can you imagine if Toyota, Ford or GM called and wanted to purchase eDead in large quantities but fist needed proof that it worked as advertised.

Well, we strapped a rubber band to a tin can then put that in a BBQ grill that was hanging from a heat gun for 8 hours and the sun still came up the next morning! There’s your f'ing proof Toyota!!!

I can only hope that the do not do QC testing on speakers and subs in the same fashion.
No need to reinvent the wheel. There are standardized testing methods for sound deadening that do exist.
As the post above me states, it looks like a marketing ploy that prays on the ignorance and susceptibility of the customer that is fascinated with results but has no idea what the results prove.

ANT


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

that test was done to show the dampening characteristics of each Edead, if you look at the results you would see that it was done with v1, v1se, and ue. the teklite I think was on the end for each one, but that shouldnt matter because it wasnt testing the freq that the foam would block.


----------



## el_chupo_

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BeatsDownLow said:


> that test was done to show the dampening characteristics of each Edead, if you look at the results you would see that it was done with v1, v1se, and ue. the teklite I think was on the end for each one, but that shouldnt matter because it wasnt testing the freq that the foam would block.


No one is questioning the idea behind the test, but rather the testing method. Putting a speaker inside a paint can...


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BeatsDownLow said:


> that test was done to show the dampening characteristics of each Edead, if you look at the results you would see that it was done with v1, v1se, and ue. the teklite I think was on the end for each one, but that shouldnt matter because it wasnt testing the freq that the foam would block.


Damping characteristics and blocking are entirely different things. I wonder how having a cylindrical test medium impacts the results? I'd expect to see both a change in the resonant frequency AND a decrease in SPL with added material. I don't see the downward frequency shift I thought we'd see. The can seems like a poor choice since it is cylindrical, much thinner than the materials we are dealing with and it's reinforced at both ends. Without more baseline data and accurate descriptions of how much material was added where, I don't think we can learn much.


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

i think it was only 1 layer of each, what i was tryin to say was that the test was just to show that the thicker ones did more than the thinner ones, i remeber seeing it when it was posted but dont remeber all the details


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

should deadener stick to plastic as good as metal? I ask because I pulled some v1 i got acouple months ago off a door panel I am fiberglassing and i deadened the inside of the panel. I went to redo part of it and had to remove it and it pulled off very easily. I dont know if its because it plastic or not, but I am gonna place a piece of it on some metal and leave it outside to see if it comes off


----------



## Rudeboy

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*



BeatsDownLow said:


> should deadener stick to plastic as good as metal? I ask because I pulled some v1 i got acouple months ago off a door panel I am fiberglassing and i deadened the inside of the panel. I went to redo part of it and had to remove it and it pulled off very easily. I dont know if its because it plastic or not, but I am gonna place a piece of it on some metal and leave it outside to see if it comes off


Quite a few people reported adhesion problems with the V1² many months ago, similar to the results in this thread. When I measure the adhesive bond strength, it was the weakest I had ever seen for a butyl product. A butyl adhesive mat should stick very well to metal and plastic.


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

well it looks like i need some new deadener then


----------



## Megalomaniac

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

I didnt watch the video, but I saw the screenshots rudeboi posted. Im baffled on what the hell that was? I see a rubber band? Some real R&D science going on there...


----------



## spl152db

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

is there a forum discount for second skin?


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## ANT

*Re: eDead V1SE² - Be Careful*

We used to offer a discount to forum members back when our prices were set much higher. Then we decided to lower our prices on our web site to the discounted price.
So the prices you see now are very similar to what you used to get with the discount.
We had a few price increases. 5 actually, and did not raise our prices for quite some time, but eventually we had to.
Then, once we started selling through dealers and distributors, any discounts we offerer directly to the customers would step on the toes of those that sold the products for us.
So now, the prices you see on our site are the prices we sell for.
Sometimes on larger orders we can help with shipping costs, and will often throw in some free tools or accessories though.

ANT


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