# Tubes?



## mattyjman

I have never heard a tube amp. I've never seen a tube amp installed personally. And I've been perusing through the HLCD section, and I keep seeing tube amps being recommended for running horns. 

What will I get with tubes that I won't get with a traditional class a/b or d amplifier? 

What are some recommendations for amps that I could find and try out?


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## Oliver

Your wallet will be extremely lighter 

vibrations and tubes ... U figure it out.

http://milbert.com/

Milbert amplifier - Milbert Amplifiers is a company which, in collaboration with The David Berning Company, reintroduced, in 1986, vacuum tube audio amplifiers to the automobile.


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## Horsemanwill

matt jason's ran them and has some tube amps still i'd ask him


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## mattyjman

Oliver said:


> Your wallet will be extremely lighter
> 
> vibrations and tubes ... U figure it out.
> 
> Milbert Amplifiers, Most Musical Amplifiers
> 
> Milbert amplifier - Milbert Amplifiers is a company which, in collaboration with The David Berning Company, reintroduced, in 1986, vacuum tube audio amplifiers to the automobile.


2-4k just for an amp... i don't think so... there has got to be some serious reasons to justify the expense ... what is it...


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## Guest

The sound.... 
Tubes have a sound all there own... Some love the warm tube sound others do not...

I personally live the tube sound.


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## jp88

mattyjman said:


> .
> 
> What will I get with tubes that I won't get with a traditional class a/b or d amplifier?


more heat, more distortion, and a lighter wallet are notable things tubes will bring you.


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## Guest

Certain distortion is not a bad thing....


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## jp88

SQ_MDX said:


> Certain distortion is not a bad thing....


Distortion is awesome if you are buying a guitar amp.


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## Oliver

http://forum.realmofexcursion.com/amplifiers/71128-help-soundstream-reference-405s-questions.html



> azvrt
> 
> I will now build a system around the two Picasso's, a Genesis SA50 and a Genesis DA100 (both class a like the Picasso's)


This guy buys and sells(or used to) Mail me at [email protected]


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## Guest

It really comes down to personal preference.... The even order distortion produced by tubes are pleasing to some and not others. Really just depends on what your looking for in a sound system.


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## mattyjman

thanks for all the replies thus far guys... but i was specifically wanting to know what audible differences there are as it applies to using hlcd's. can anyone offer some info on this...

mic, jason, kelvin, bateman? hello??


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## Oliver

> I would also like to point out that both horn driven systems and even single-driver systems were much more popular before the advent of extremely high gain amplifiers (read: the *tube amp era*) and are certainly not a new technology of any sort. For further evidence of this fact, the Tractrix horn curve that I used for my system here was patented in *1927* by Paul Voigt.


I takes you back in time 

I have a recording of vinyl on a cd - in my car, people ask where the record player is - distinctive sound


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## thehatedguy

Hang on, have to get the kids ready for bed. Have a reply that might require a real keyboard, so might be tomorrow.


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## thehatedguy

Go to the Internet archive to the elite car audio site and read the thread werewolf wrote in the tech section about class a amps and high efficiency drivers...good reading and explains a lot.


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## mattyjman

^ i have no idea how to pull up stuff that doesn't exist anymore... anyone know what he's talking about?


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## Guest

Go to www.waybackmachine.com

Search for www.elitecaraudio.com


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## thehatedguy

Harshness of high efficiency drivers is the post look in the year 2005.


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## mattyjman

that doesn't work either, unless i'm missing a super secret code or something


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## thehatedguy

I can't copy and paste the link from the kindle.


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## mattyjman

oh i see... it's a different web address to search the archives... looking for the link now


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## thehatedguy

No, you aren't. It doesn't work.

Google "internet archive" and type in www.elitecaraudio.com in the way back machine. Go to the last snapshot in the year 2005. Go to the message forums and the technical forum.




mattyjman said:


> that doesn't work either, unless i'm missing a super secret code or something


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## thehatedguy

Elite Car Audio : Message Forum : Technical Clinic


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## mattyjman

hah, thanks, found it now! checking it out now!

Elite Car Audio : Car Audio Forum - harshness of high efficiency drivers


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## jp88

Elite Car Audio : Car Audio Forum - harshness of high efficiency drivers


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## mattyjman

dang, only goes to the page 5... i'm missing out on 4 pages

how did the tests go?


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## mattyjman

although i understand the premise...

and that is when a/b class amps are used, there is crossover distortion. this is taken into account when amps are measured for THD as well as S/N ratios, but this happens at high voltage settings (volume). As gain on the amp is decreased, as would be on drivers that are high efficiency in nature, the crossover distortion remains the same, which may then become audible and noticeable -- therefore contributing to harshness in the response of the driver. 

very interesting stuff... i actually understand the big picture here. 

so it makes me wonder two things ... 

what happens in d class amps? does this cause any issues as they might in a/b amps. 

in determining an amp that works well with horns, we are left then looking for amps that are class a in design ... so then the choice between tube amps, and class a amps could be classified solely based on sound characteristics, right? (forgive me for overly simple definition - class a transistor = clinical || tubes = warm)

am i on the right page?


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## jp88

I didnt see anything in that thread relating to tube amps just class a vs class a/b vs class b with high efficiency drivers


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## mattyjman

^ i can only guess that Jason was pointing me in that direction as the thread may indirectly answer my question about what i would get, or the difference between, solid state amps on the horns and tubes... just my .02 cents, and i'm waiting for confirmation

did you get past page 5 by the way?


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## SoundJunkie

I have been slowly collecting gear for a horn build in my next toy. IMO you really want the cleanest sound possible for high efficiency drivers. Class A is probably the best choice for this but options in the mobile amp world are limited. 
I ended up with a pair of these, one for my Eric Stevens full bodies with ultra drivers and one for my JBL 2118h's.









Now to find a trunk big enough for an IB application using my pair of IDW 15's.

I love the sound of vacuum tubes on a pair of high efficiency speakers but Milbert BAM's are pricey and enormous! And about the only ones I would consider in a vehicle. I have tried a few hybrid designs but they are lacking at best.

Just my 2¢ worth, everybody has their own opinions and I am certain that you can find more technically based answers to your questions. I have read alot of what is out there and learned to trust my ears.

Have fun!



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## mattyjman

^ wow, that's an amp... geez.


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## jp88

mattyjman said:


> ^
> 
> did you get past page 5 by the way?


no I didnt get past pg 5 either  It sucks too because I always find werewolfs threads entertaining


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## thehatedguy

Being solid state in itself doesn't necessarily mean the amp will produce odd order distortion. Check out the articles Nelson pass has written on the first watt website. And there are a/b amps out there in the home world that don't have crossover distortion - the blameless designs.

Wondered how class d does with crossover distortion myself - they have gotten really popular with the home horn guys, and my jls sounded really good on my horns.

Got more to say but hard to type on this touch pad.


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## mattyjman

^ you have heard of a computer keyboard before, no?


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## thehatedguy

I don't recall doing any testing with that thread. I usually tried to put jeff's theory to practice. I did do some listening to different amps on my then up and running home horn system...maybe that was after eca went down - I don't remember exactly when I had the home system playing. I would have to search eca to see if I had the hss amp then.


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## thehatedguy

Can't get to one now. Only have the kindle right now.



mattyjman said:


> ^ you have heard of a computer keyboard before, no?


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## thehatedguy

The milbert is nice but it's pretty much solid class b in operation. It's totally different in sound than say a single ended class a amp.


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## thehatedguy

I guess I did have the home system running - I was making some single ended solid state class a amps. I used the chassis and power supply from my monolithic a501s and put Nelson pass inspired mini aleph boards in them. Sounded good but not as nice as my hss which didn't sound as good as my bottlehead set amp.


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## thehatedguy

The other pages are there if you go and look at them from April 2006...my bad on saying 2005 earlier. Well page 9 is there dunno what happened with pages 6-8.


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## mattyjman

^ so, if not the milbert, what would be your ultimate reccomendation for horn amps?


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## thehatedguy

Cost and size no object, the hss tube amps. But new they are more expensive than the milbert.


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## mattyjman

that's pretty damn expensive then... when i thought it couldn't be any more crazy than the milbert.... damn 

so, if i was reading between the lines right with you directing me to that thread, i really should be looking for a class a amp, no?


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## thehatedguy

For the real world I like the jl hd amps. I do want to play with a few old school amps, and there are amps like steg and mosconi that I never got to play with. Those Matt Roberts modded zapco 2.0s were nice...and couple forsale in the classifieds.

I always used to take notice of the amps team focal used back then since focal back then was higher efficiency speakers. Back then most of those guys used audison vrx amps...or older audison like the hr100s. 

The old zapco studio and reference amps I liked.

The person to ask, and who I always ask for advice is Eric Stevens. He always gives me solid advice even if he was recommending someone else's products.


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## thehatedguy

The problem is there are so few class a amps for the car. To me an a/b with some bias would be nice. A lot of a/b seems to be more on the b side of things to keep temps down and a long life for the components. And with low sensitivity speakers this isn't much of a concern, but the horns are in the fringes.

Maybe Eric will make me a signature edition amp just for the horns


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## thehatedguy

I liked genesis amps a lot too.


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## mattyjman

^^ hah, that sounds like a great idea...


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## thehatedguy

Fwiw Dr geddes doesn't get hung up on fancy amps with his personal speakers. He found a nice pioneer home reciever that measured really well...he has mentioned amps and high efficiency speakers over on diyaudio. From what I remember he looked at crossover distortion to so degree.


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## mattyjman

thehatedguy said:


> For the real world I like the jl hd amps. I do want to play with a few old school amps, and there are amps like steg and mosconi that I never got to play with. Those Matt Roberts modded zapco 2.0s were nice...and couple forsale in the classifieds.
> 
> I always used to take notice of the amps team focal used back then since focal back then was higher efficiency speakers. Back then most of those guys used audison vrx amps...or older audison like the hr100s.
> 
> The old zapco studio and reference amps I liked.
> 
> The person to ask, and who I always ask for advice is Eric Stevens. He always gives me solid advice even if he was recommending someone else's products.


I've pm'd him, and we'll see if he checks in on this thread. 

I guess all my asking about this is because this time around I want things to be done right. I'm ok spending a bit more if things are going to turn out in the end. I really did like the set up in the bmw, but i've always been curious what it's like with tubes on the horns... how drastic is it, does it totally change the character, etc.... If it gives it less of a "in your face" sound while still retaining the incredible dynamics, i'd love to try it. but not too reserved to the point where it sounds like regular conventional mid/tweets. i love horns for what they can do, I'm curious how much difference a tube amp makes.


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## subwoofery

mattyjman said:


> I've pm'd him, and we'll see if he checks in on this thread.
> 
> I guess all my asking about this is because this time around I want things to be done right. I'm ok spending a bit more if things are going to turn out in the end. I really did like the set up in the bmw, but i've always been curious what it's like with tubes on the horns... how drastic is it, does it totally change the character, etc.... *If it gives it less of a "in your face" sound while still retaining the incredible dynamics*, i'd love to try it. but not too reserved to the point where it sounds like regular conventional mid/tweets. i love horns for what they can do, I'm curious how much difference a tube amp makes.


Sorry, am late for the party. Was at a small acoustic concert and came back home late in the morning 

Your comment in bold is exactly what I experienced with my Milbert (tubes) VS my DLS A2 (A/B) on horns. @ 8 ohm, the DLS is slightly more powerful but I didn't find the Milbert lacking in output with 30 watts RMS... good thing when using horns  
I did compare the Milbert (tubes) with my Sinfoni Prestigio (biased class A) and let's just say that it depends on what you're looking for... 
Both amps will make the sound sounding sweeter, smoother but NOT less dynamic - strange way to describe it but those are the only terms I can think of... I feel that the Milbert could make the sound envolop you more while the Sinfoni could portray a better sense of space between instruments and pinpoint imaging... 
Both are leaps beyond the DLS A2 I'm using now in clarity and enjoyment (foot tapping) 

Milbert saved for Home Audio right now while the Sinfoni is being saved for my next project 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I liked genesis amps a lot too.


Gordon from Genesis still makes the Genesis Biased Class A/G amp (only in a DMX case). 
Class A up to something like 20 watts then class G circuitry kicks in for up to 150 watts - please note that this is for a 4 ohm load, you might get more class A watts with a horn (8 ohm)  

It's also true that Eric will have the right answer and suggestion for your needs and budget 

Kelvin 

Edit: found the literature for the Class A/G from Genesis - scared of the Xover distortion all that circuitry might introduce? Read this


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## mattyjman

Thanks for chiming in Kelvin! If you had to choose between the two... milbert or sinfoni... which would you?


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## subwoofery

mattyjman said:


> Thanks for chiming in Kelvin! If you had to choose between the two... milbert or sinfoni... which would you?


There's something about tubes... I just can't say no to them  

If I had to choose, I'd go with the Milbert. The Sinfoni S/N is much higher than most amps and is quiet - but the Milbert is better in this respect, just dead silent 
Sound wise, like I said it's just up to you 

I suggest you seriously consider the Genesis Class A/G amp - I have the DMX and would love to own the A/G one (when I have some spare cash) 

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

I'll sell my HSS for the right price. The chrome plating done at the factory isn't the best and there are a couple scuffs on the transformers.


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## Oliver

Never tried tubes in a car, only at home 

For a car, this rocked my world ~ http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...s/82345-two-genesis-dual-mono-amplifiers.html

DAMN


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## Eric Stevens

My view on what is the best amplifier for horns is pretty simple.

Horns are very revealing due to the efficiency and resulting dynamic range. The high efficiency also makes any noise floor all that much louder as well. Add to that distortion in amplifiers is often worse at low power levels where they will be when used with high efficiency drivers.

Considering the above I would prefer some single ended goodness with a monster power supply.

In the real world I look for low distortion at low power levels and try to keep the signal path as simple as possible by bypassing any filters, eq, etc in the Preamp stages of the amplifier and even go so far as to dc couple the amp and remove any coupling caps. Some active protection circuits can increase distortion and are best removed as well.

Amps with a sliding bias that operate at or close to pure class a at low power levels are a good option for having your cake and eating it too.

I have never personally used any of the tube amplifiers made for use in mobile, but I have heard a Milbert in and out of the car. Out of the car it was compared to single ended tube amp and the Milbert was not well liked by anyone present. It's just as important for the sound quality with solid state or a tube amp to do the design correctly for best suund quality. This is true of layout as well as parts chosen. 

Eric


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## mattyjman

^ thanks for the reply Eric. 

One question to clarify... the milbert was not liked period, or just out of the car? What about in the car?


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## thehatedguy

They did an amp evaluation at the old ID headquarters years and years a go. The results are on, you guessed it, elite car audio.

Eric you have any models of amps over the years that you could point us to?


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## mattyjman

thehatedguy said:


> The results are on, you guessed it, elite car audio.


Haha, figures.


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## SoundJunkie

Get yourself one of the new Mosconi Class A's...they are Class A up to the first 20 or 30 watts I believe. Or go on a search for the Steg Masterstroke Classe A like I have. They have an adjustable bias wheel on top and are true Class A to the first 50 watts! They also have 6 fans and a 20 lb heatsink to deal with the heat though

I also have one of MattR's Class A biased Zapco C2K 4.0's in my FJ on my 94 db efficient Focal Audiom 6W mids and Scan AirCirc tweets. I really love this amp too. Probably only 10W or so Class A at full bias, but sounds sweet for sure. The suggestion for one of these 2.0's on your horns would probably sound great and be the most affordable option. 

Lots of good suggestions in here!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## The A Train

How well do tube amps handle the mobile environment? I used to assemble guitar tube amps and im aware how brittle they can be. Not just the glass but the legs that lead off of the tube. I cant see them lasting long, especially with a stiff suspension.


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## Oliver

> Those Matt Roberts modded zapco 2.0s were nice !


Matt got those to stay in classA for longer time before shifting(more pure classA)




Eric Stevens said:


> My view on what is the best amplifier for horns is pretty simple.
> 
> Horns are very revealing due to the efficiency and resulting dynamic range. The high efficiency also makes any noise floor all that much louder as well. Add to that distortion in amplifiers is often worse at low power levels where they will be when used with high efficiency drivers.
> 
> Considering the above I would prefer some single ended goodness with a monster power supply.
> 
> In the real world I look for low distortion at low power levels and try to keep the signal path as simple as possible by bypassing any filters, eq, etc in the Preamp stages of the amplifier and even go so far as to dc couple the amp and remove any coupling caps. Some active protection circuits can increase distortion and are best removed as well.
> 
> Amps with a sliding bias that operate at or close to pure class a at low power levels are a good option for having your cake and eating it too.
> 
> I have never personally used any of the tube amplifiers made for use in mobile, but I have heard a Milbert in and out of the car. Out of the car it was compared to single ended tube amp and the Milbert was not well liked by anyone present. It's just as important for the sound quality with solid state or a tube amp to do the design correctly for best suund quality. This is true of layout as well as parts chosen.
> 
> Eric


http://www.amazon.com/Melody-Aodixu...ie=UTF8&qid=1363020687&sr=1-63&keywords=solen



> Rated Output Power: 16W x 2 RMS Class A
> 
> Ultimate high end Class A vacuum tube amplifier from Melody *Design goal: to beat AUDIO NOTE Ongaku at only 5% of the its price*


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## Eric Stevens

mattyjman said:


> ^ thanks for the reply Eric.
> 
> One question to clarify... the milbert was not liked period, or just out of the car? What about in the car?


I have never done a real comparison of the Milbert in the car, but I have heard cars that were nice that used them. It was never an experience that made me go wow.

What i remember being told by someone I trust is The Milbert is over driving the output tubes to get the power output if I remember correctly, this causes them to have a high distortion level.

Eric


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## Oliver

Eric,

Isn't the idea to make people go WOW( instead of being out-the-dough and out-the-show )


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## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Eric you have any models of amps over the years that you could point us to?


Have always like the Zapco amps and I used the Z600 on my last competition system. When I chose those I listened to the Z300 also as well McIntosh, PPI, Xtant 2200i, and many others. the Z600 just stood out above all the others kind of like looking through a cleaner window the images were more well defined and the sound stage was more three dimensional are what I remember. 

ODR class A in Zieglers CRX was always nice but I never did any comparisons with it.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

Oliver said:


> Eric,
> 
> Isn't the idea to make people go WOW( instead of being out-the-dough and out-the-show )


Yes that is the idea, remember we are dealing with a chain here and it is only as strong as the weakest link.

So maybe the weakest link wasn't the amp possibly.

Eric


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## subwoofery

Not much tube love then?  

Kelvin


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## minbari

the biggest problem I have found with the little time I have used horns is that their sensitivity is both helpful and difficult. since it only relies on about 5 watts or less to produce really loud SPL, then an amplifier that produces large amounts of distortion at low levels of amplification is going to exacerbate this problem.


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## Eric Stevens

subwoofery said:


> Not much tube love then?
> 
> Kelvin


I love tubes, of the single ended and push-pull pure class A variety. 

An HSS HT245 would do nicely  45 x 2 single ended class A

Eric


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## Horsemanwill

since we are talking amps for horns let me see if i got this right. right now our typically class A amp is only class A till it reaches a certain power output, lets say 20watts. after that 20 watts it goes into ab mode?


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## minbari

Horsemanwill said:


> since we are talking amps for horns let me see if i got this right. right now our typically class A amp is only class A till it reaches a certain power output, lets say 20watts. after that 20 watts it goes into ab mode?


unless it is a pure class A. which has nearly as much current draw at idle as full power. not a good thing in a car.


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## Horsemanwill

so right now off the top of my head the mosconi class A, that's not considered a pure class a correct?

if so which amps are considered pure class a. i can't think of any


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## Eric Stevens

minbari said:


> unless it is a pure class A. which has nearly as much current draw at idle as full power. not a good thing in a car.



Yep! the HT245 has an idle current of 38 amps @12.5 volts and draws 38 amps at full power also.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

Horsemanwill said:


> so right now off the top of my head the mosconi class A, that's not considered a pure class a correct?
> 
> if so which amps are considered pure class a. i can't think of any


Pioneer had an ODR amp that was 15 x 2 pure class A

Eric


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## Randyman...

Mics, mic preamps, compressor/limiters, and EQ's are the only place you'll see me use tubes - and that's for flavor and transformer saturation goodness - not for "Fidelity". I prefer solid state's superior simplicity and consistency for playback systems. Get the tone/flavor/vibe you are looking for in the recording/mixing process, then reproduce it faithfully with solid state IMO...


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## minbari

Horsemanwill said:


> so right now off the top of my head the mosconi class A, that's not considered a pure class a correct?
> 
> if so which amps are considered pure class a. i can't think of any


some old sound stream were pure class A. 25 w x 2 and would draw about 35 amps all the time.

I think some of the Sinfoni amps are pure class A too, though dont quote me on that.


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## Horsemanwill

i've always wanted the SS amps. we're talking the old school chromed out ref class a ones right?

liek this? RARE Old School Soundstream Picasso Class A Audiophile Amp I SHIP Overseas | eBay

or r we going way back Old School Soundstream Amp Class A 50 Series II Pure Class A Amplifier | eBay


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## minbari

I read referring to the old school blue ones. The Picasso are nice, but they are not true class A, of I remember right.

I just bought an old school PG eq from that guy, lol. Very nice guy

Sent from my motorola electrify using digital farts


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## thehatedguy

Neither of those are class a. SS had a class a that looked similar to the d200s.

Matt bitched at me when I was going to use the ODR rs-a1 in my car when I had my odr system. The owner's manual said do not use more than one in your car if you had a stock charging system.


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## subwoofery

Eric Stevens said:


> I love tubes, of the single ended and push-pull pure class A variety.
> 
> An HSS HT245 would do nicely  45 x 2 single ended class A
> 
> Eric


I'd feel unsecured to use an amp that cost more than half what my current car costs  
I do like High-End audio but using an HSS tube amp in a car is pushing it lol 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery

Would love to find a Genesis P15 one day... Tube, Class A bias, Class G circuitry, dual mono, powerful enough for tweeters or midbasses - what's not to like  

Kelvin


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## The Tube Doctor

Quote:
Rated Output Power: 16W x 2 RMS Class A

Ultimate high end Class A vacuum tube amplifier from Melody Design goal: to beat AUDIO NOTE Ongaku at only 5% of the its price 

This quote must be wishful thinking. I've had the opportunity to listen, at length, to many of the Audio Note Japan (now called Kondo) amps & preamps. They don't sound like anything I've ever heard in the last 30+ years in this business.

I do still have a few of those Pioneer RS-A1 amps kicking around in the warehouse, somewhere. They truly were class A, drew max current from the time they turned on, but were not that musically engaging. "Dry" is a term that springs from my memory. 

I've built and repaired countless guitar amps, and would have to say that a well built combo
(amp and speakers in the same cabinet) hold up remarkably well. Given that the electronics are usually hanging down around the speaker's magnets, they couldn't get much more vibration unless you hooked them up to a hammer-drill. So, I don't agree with the view that tube gear is unsuited to car use. If the designer has given it even a passing thought, vibration-related failures can be managed. 

There's a link from a thread I posted in a couple of years ago. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/113436-diy-tube-line-driver.html

I put in quite a few of these tube line drivers, and never had a failure. Same with the amplifier made by the same company. Never an amp failure, and the only tube failure was general wear and tear on 1 of the 4 power tubes. Popped in a new tube and never had another problem.


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## chad

Randyman... said:


> Mics, mic preamps, compressor/limiters,* and EQ's* are the only place you'll see me use tubes -


Someone is into Manley and Drawmer.. possibly Putnam (I believe Putnam made a cool tube EQ)


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## chad

The Tube Doctor said:


> I've built and repaired countless guitar amps, *and would have to say that a well built combo
> (amp and speakers in the same cabinet) hold up remarkably well. Given that the electronics are usually hanging down around the speaker's magnets, they couldn't get much more vibration unless you hooked them up to a hammer-drill.* So, I don't agree with the view that tube gear is unsuited to car use. If the designer has given it even a passing thought, vibration-related failures can be managed.


Let's not forget the meathead roadies putting it ("putting" being a flowery word) in a truck or trailer with a really stiff suspension while the amp gets knocked silly cross-country.

I'm not a fan of tubes in cars, but I also can't help to remember that car audio was around long before the transistor.


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## goodstuff

*AUDIO NOTE Ongaku- jeebus. Could buy a small house for that price....

*


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## The Tube Doctor

How about the Gakuon and M10 preamp. Gakuon uses 2 VT4C power tubes, and FOUR CV 378 rectifiers. Can't remember off-hand which other tubes were used. 

Those crazy builders wind their own silver foil caps. They actually roll their own silver foil, and draw their own silver wire to wind the transformers. 
Hugely expensive is an under-statement.

It may sound like an over-used cliche, but I heard those components make an audio system disappear. I've never heard anything as convincing. The hair on the back of my neck stood up. Billie Holiday WAS in that room.


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## porscheman

I really liked my blade m252 on my horns in the porsche, it was a definite step up from the SS class A 50 that was on them before. i went from 2 SS 50's and a SS 100 to a blade 252, 502 and a 1002. of course there was a small amount of current draw and a 1/0 cable involved. running usd bc-3's usd 840's and a pair of kicker solo 12c's


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## thehatedguy

So I have this tube amp, probably the nicest amp that I could ever hope for to use on horns in a car...but I've never put it in the car. Damn thing itself is EXPENSIVE. And tubes aren't cheap to replace...though if like the Milbert (that I liked), the tubes would last a long time. But like any high performance Italian product, it will require regular maintaince.

Sucks I know.


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## chad

The Tube Doctor said:


> How about the Gakuon and M10 preamp. Gakuon uses 2 VT4C power tubes, and FOUR CV 378 rectifiers. Can't remember off-hand which other tubes were used.
> 
> Those crazy builders wind their own silver foil caps. They actually roll their own silver foil, and draw their own silver wire to wind the transformers.
> Hugely expensive is an under-statement.
> 
> It may sound like an over-used cliche, but I heard those components make an audio system disappear. I've never heard anything as convincing. The hair on the back of my neck stood up. Billie Holiday WAS in that room.


I think a lot of this is due more to meticulous construction techniques, tweaking, and most importantly careful matching. But by the time you order and test a thousand passive components, it's probably easier to just wind the **** yourself


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## Randyman...

chad said:


> Someone is into Manley and Drawmer.. possibly Putnam (I believe Putnam made a cool tube EQ)


Lol - One day - I *WILL* own a Pultec EQ  Don't own one yet. My one Manley piece is actually the Langevin DVC (Solid State  ) - but has very nice transformers and is class-A - and my one Drawmer piece is also solid state!  . My favorite preamp is my ADL600 designed by Anthony DiMara - 300 Volt high-tension design - pretty clean - adds just a bit of "fattening" to anything that passes through it - great built-in DI as well. My Demeter VTMP2a is sweet on guitar cabinets, and the Teletronix LA2A opto limiter clone I built (silent:arts DLA2A) is pretty dang juicy, too...

It's funny as some of my solid state gear can also be pretty colorful and clip pleasantly via nice transformer saturation. But my Tube based gear is very nice for overdriving or taking the edge off shrill sources.

I'm still of the strong opinion that Tubes don't belong on the reproduction side of Audio in the 21st century - and CERTAINLY not in Car Audio. Modern Car Audio = Class D FTW


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## The Tube Doctor

chad said:


> I think a lot of this is due more to meticulous construction techniques, tweaking, and most importantly careful matching. But by the time you order and test a thousand passive components, it's probably easier to just wind the **** yourself


I did get a look inside the Gakuon mono-block, and you're right, meticulous 
in the extreme! 
But seriously, have you ever bought some mylar film and tried to roll capcitors? It's not impossible, and maybe kinda fun in a twisted, electronics-geek kinda way. 
But buying pure ingot silver (Italian), and rolling it out into film thickness! Silver doesn't like to be rolled out that thin. Gold, no problem. But Mr. Kondo believed that there are properties within the silver that make it the best choice for revealing nuances which would be obscured by using other materials. 

These comments were not the rantings of "A Golden Eared Audiophile"
but rather, the observations of an EE (recording engineer at CBS-Sony Japan)
and molecular metallurgist.

You'll get no arguments from me regarding the importance and value of meticulous construction techniques, tweaking and careful matching. 
However, there was something quite indefinable about what I heard. Kondo understood far more than he was able to explain, IMO.


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## chad

No tubes in my live racks


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## Randyman...

chad said:


> No tubes in my live racks


Probably plenty on-stage though  (at least in the guitar amp and bass amp where you want those non-linearities tubes do so well  )


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## chad

Not bass generally, guitar is ONLY tube. Prefer a boogie in class A mode.


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## Randyman...

chad said:


> Not bass generally, guitar is ONLY tube. Prefer a boogie in class A mode.


Understood  I'm more of a Marshall or AC15/AC30 guy. I can do without tubes on bass - but do like the SVT tube heads with a bit of "growl" dialed in. "Multing" the Bass though a small guitar amp for the "bite" also works wonders 

Back to the "linear" application of Tubes in Audio Reproduction Systems part of this thread


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## thehatedguy

Not before another vote for a boogie!

Or a krank


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## The Tube Doctor

I'm old. 
I prefer the AB763 Fender circuit with 6v6 power tubes.
Especially ones that I've built!

Close miked in an isolation cab backstage, & piped into the mixer.


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## chad

The Tube Doctor said:


> I'm old.
> I prefer the AB763 Fender circuit with 6v6 power tubes.
> Especially ones that I've built!
> 
> Close miked in an isolation cab backstage, & piped into the mixer.


I'm hip to that, what shall we do to subdue the ego of "the talent?"


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## The Tube Doctor

Oh, I see you've been in the company of greatness before. Glad I'm not the only one to ponder this problem.

I've recommended this pedal to more than a few players. Of course, they're never able to use it with suitable restraint.............


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## FG79

subwoofery said:


> Not much tube love then?
> 
> Kelvin


Probably too warm for them. 

I ran the Milbert Bam230 for awhile....very, very smooth. 

Only issue was that it was a temporary stopgap in place of a 4 channel amp that burnt out and needed replacing. When I got that amp back I had to take the Milbert out.

Only real weakness I found with it was that it wasn't as punchy in the midbass area as my stronger solid state amps. For more refined music, not an issue but for the demands of car audio for certain genres it was tough (high standards of course -- better than most SS amps in that regard). 

But that was just running a passive 2 way set. If you bi-amp it just running horns, tweeters, or dome mids it would be absolutely incredible (meaning, no weaknesses). 

Tubes are the real deal. In legit high end home audio, I will not accept the argument that SS belongs....not in the slightest. Now there is such a thing as s*** tube amps, but the good ones cannot be touched by the best solid state amps for SQ. 

Car audio is a different ballgame in many different ways. 

BTW, the top three SS car amps I've used are Phoenix Gold MS275, MS1000, and Xtant X604. The MS series amps had more muscle than refinement, and the Xtant most refined SS amp I've owned.


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## FG79

The Tube Doctor said:


> How about the Gakuon and M10 preamp. Gakuon uses 2 VT4C power tubes, and FOUR CV 378 rectifiers. Can't remember off-hand which other tubes were used.
> 
> Those crazy builders wind their own silver foil caps. They actually roll their own silver foil, and draw their own silver wire to wind the transformers.
> Hugely expensive is an under-statement.
> 
> It may sound like an over-used cliche, but I heard those components make an audio system disappear. I've never heard anything as convincing. The hair on the back of my neck stood up. Billie Holiday WAS in that room.


Gaku On is out of this world incredible. M10 also awesome.


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## chad

The Tube Doctor said:


> Oh, I see you've been in the company of greatness before. Glad I'm not the only one to ponder this problem.


Every breed here, thinking about becoming a talent veterinarian.

Still deal with it at an educational level. Today's comment was "But the stage lights shine in our eyes."

The only thing I could think of witty enough was, "It helps to hide the audience."


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## thehatedguy

I think I am going to dust off the old Monolithc A501s, recap them, and put them back together to put in the car. 

I know, not tubes and not pure class A...but probably the best option I can come up with other than putting the HSS in the car.


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