# Old school build in old school vehicle center channel dash help



## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

I’m redoing my old school build in my 69 Chevy

Head Unit: KRC 3003 - CD input used for Iphone music 
Processing: Audio Control ESP 3. Center channel special restoration & PPI DEQ 230 EQ
AMPS: PPI Pc 650 and PPi pc225 for center ESP-3
Speakers: 8” kicker sub, MB quart rear fill, front Morel Nano 6.5” kickpanel & tweeter in a-pillar
Center Speaker: 2 - 4” coaxiales. Audiofrog gs42? Or any decent 4”?

my question is the system is all stealth and analog old school. The stock dash center is steel with perforated holes for the speakers. I will not cut the dash metal. The 4” mount underneath the steel 

im planning on running the 4” coax’s in series (8 ohm) so the amp (pc225 bridged) is 50rms like the main fronts. The ESP-3 rolls off the center at 150hz. 

my question: 
#1 Do I run nice center speakers like the frogs?
#2. Since I have metal grille from stock GM dash with holes what does this do to performance?
#3. The dash underneath the 4” speakers is HUGE open to car. Should I make some form of enclosure? Or stuffing? Can’t imagine much response given no rear structure

I know so many will say drop center drop rear fill. I may but I want to learn and play first.


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## carlthess40 (Aug 21, 2018)

I would use something behind them, or run them in a program and see if they can be used in OB. I would also install something on the back side of the steel grill , like cloth felt to help it soften up the sound. Like a speaker grill but on the inside. 


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

I used to own an ESP-3 (literally almost two decades ago.) Interesting little piece.... ideally you would have three identical front stage speakers but barring that I would recommend trying to keep them as similar as possible.... ie. stay with the same family/brand (does morel make a 4" coax with a similar tweeter to your components?).

You certainly don't need two center speakers.... the center is a "fill" channel and you can easily "over-juice" your center channel and collapse your stereo image. In my experience you really only tweak the output up enough on the center so that it fills any "hole" in the middle of your dash.... 

As for mounting.... like I said, one speaker is plenty. Maybe contact Morel directly and see if you can buy a single speaker. These are designed to be IB so if you're going to box it up then give it as much space as possible. I would be less concerned about building an enclosure and more about minimizing panel resonance in the dash caused by the driver. If you seal it into an enclosure that is too small the center will be tinny and draw attention to itself... precisely the opposite of what you want.

Shameless plug: i still have my center channel amp, an xtant 1.1i monoblock I put up for sale on the diyma classifieds. PM me if you're interested and maybe we can work out a deal....


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Mtrhead said:


> I’m redoing my old school build in my 69 Chevy
> 
> Head Unit: KRC 3003 - CD input used for Iphone music
> Processing: Audio Control ESP 3. Center channel special restoration & PPI DEQ 230 EQ
> ...


Without a DSP you will want the front speakers to be as matched as possible before you start messing with an ESP 3 - luckily for you Morel does make a 4" coaxial (4 ohm):








Home


Morel Integra 424 Hybrid Series 4" Point Source Coaxial Full-RangeMorel's Integra 424 4" coaxial driver is unlike any other coaxial driver. By using a large voice coil on the woofer, Morel was able to mount the 1.1" Accuflex™ soft dome tweeter concentrically within the woofer cone. This results...




www.parts-express.com





And you won't need more than one as one will give you plenty of output.
As for an enclosure, it will help to have a baffle to keep the backwave of the 4" from propagating down to the kicks and causing phase issues (and vice versa) but it doesn't need to be "Sealed" just baffled off with some kind of dampening material to help absorb the back wave. It will be more important to seal the front baffle that you mount the 4" to so that only the front wave comes out of the dash and the backwave is absorbed inside the dash. If you are really the crafty kind and are up the challenge the 4" Morel linked above could use a 0.1 cuft enclosure ported at around 150Hz to really cement the lower mids but with a Qts of 0.48 it will be fine Infinite Baffle as well.

The perforated steel holes in the dash will cause some minor effects to dispersion of the highs but nothing really severe or enough to worry about - just put a piece of grill cloth stretched across the front of the baffle you mount the driver to so it looks factory from outside.


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

Great minds think alike....


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

Thank you for replies. Should I stick with Morel 4” or get a oval moral to get closer to the side size? i Can do a 5X7 Morel if that would help any 

thanks !


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Not unless you can fit the same size as the kicks - being HP at 150Hz the 4" is plenty but they do make the Integra in a 6" if you can fit that?








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Morel PowerSlim 6 Integra Slim 6" Coaxial DriverThe Integra point-source speaker designs are one of many technologies synonymous with the Morel brand. Morel's Integra design provides audible acoustical benefits and unsurpassed installation flexibility. Let’s look at how the unique point-source...




www.parts-express.com


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

Not sure what your dash opening looks like... if it takes any extensive cutting then I'd go the 4" route since you should in all likelihood not require much in the way of low end.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

couchflambeau said:


> Not sure what your dash opening looks like... if it takes any extensive cutting then I'd go the 4" route since you should in all likelihood not require much in the way of low end.


And getting the same dome tweeter is really the crux of this anyway. 

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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

daloudin said:


> And getting the same dome tweeter is really the crux of this anyway.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I’ll see if I could get the 4” with that tweeter or a component set with same as the 6.5”. I’ll probably call to see if I can just buy 1


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Without a DSP you will want the front speakers to be as matched as possible before you start messing with an ESP 3 - luckily for you Morel does make a 4" coaxial (4 ohm):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Few questions: 

Going with this Morel integra 424 requires a cross-over. The specs list the woofer and the tweeter at each 4 ohm speakers (note: The sides I have "Morel Nano's 6.5 2 ways" use 2200hz 12db)

I like this but its for 8 ohm tweeters: Home. Can resistor be added to the tweeter to make it 8ohm? 

Would you recommend this for the Tweeter? Home
Would you recommend this for the Woofer? Home

My amp for the center bridged is rate for min 4 ohms. This Morel Integra is a 4 ohm woofer and a 4 ohm tweeter.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Mtrhead said:


> Few questions:
> 
> Going with this Morel integra 424 requires a cross-over. The specs list the woofer and the tweeter at each 4 ohm speakers (note: The sides I have "Morel Nano's 6.5 2 ways" use 2200hz 12db)
> 
> ...


I would look for an extra MXR200.3 to match your Virtus Nano's xover as well.









Going any higher will get you farther in to the response bump between 2-2.5k on the Integra 424:









Ask in the classifieds here as most use these active and have extra crossovers laying around for cheap but if not they are $200/pr from woofersetc.com
If you can't find the MX200.3 or any of the other myriad Morel 2 way 12db/octave crossovers; I'd look for something closer to 2,000 @ 12db/octave as a 2-way to keep the 424 from being hot at the crossover.

Using a 2 way crossover keeps the drivers from interacting with each other on the impedance curve by frequency so they combine to 4 ohms with a 2-way.

If you ran them in parallel with only an in-line capacitor to protect the tweeter then the combined impedance from there up would be in parallel but most mids rise enough in impedance that it's not a problem so don't worry about the impedance.


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

daloudin said:


> I would look for an extra MXR200.3 to match your Virtus Nano's xover as well.
> View attachment 295628
> 
> .


Turns out that MXR200 corssover is also for an 8 ohm tweeter with a 4 ohm woofer. (The Carbon Nano 6.5 system uses the MT120 tweeter which is 8 ohm)
If I found the Morel MXR200 then would I have to add a 4 ohm non inductive resistor to the path of the tweeter to make it 8ohm? 
I know I'm probably making mountains out of mole hills.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Mtrhead said:


> Turns out that MXR200 corssover is also for an 8 ohm tweeter with a 4 ohm woofer. (The Carbon Nano 6.5 system uses the MT120 tweeter which is 8 ohm)
> If I found the Morel MXR200 then would I have to add a 4 ohm non inductive resistor to the path of the tweeter to make it 8ohm?
> I know I'm probably making mountains out of mole hills.


Ok - big difference between Virtus Nano and Nano Carbon. The Carbon use the MXR250i and have a 6 ohm tweeter. But that doesn't change the fact that the Integra is designed for use with the MX200.3 and changing the impedance of the driver shifts the crossover frequency marginally but in your case you still want the MX200.3 for the Integra 424.
View attachment VIRTUS-NANO-and-INTEGRA-MANUAL-for-web.pdf


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

one of our PDF's is old. The brand new off the website shows the carbon 2 ways have an 8ohm tweeter and use a different cross-over again.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine's old - you apparently have the Mk2 which I didn't even know was out yet. So it will depend on which Integra you end up with... the old 424 has the 4 ohm tweeter which will match up better with the MX200.3 or MX200.4 but if they make the new 4" Integra like the new Integra 62 then the new MX250.4i might be better.

If you have to you can build your own or do the two xovers you mentioned earlier combined into a 2-way.








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Crossover PC Board 2-Way 12 dBDesign and build your own speaker crossovers. Common circuit designs allow you to install any coil/cap combination to reach your desired crossover frequency point. Super quality, pre-etched heavy fiberglass boards with riveted and soldered terminals. Comes with...




www.parts-express.com


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

I have owned and used ESP3in a few cars. I always used same brand and series of speaker as in the doors. I was able to EQ every time to get a good response and I had excellent results getting a strong center image with good stereo separation. Always try to find the right combination of the center volume and the spatial recognition control. I had lots of time invested and n tuning, but I won several competitions back in the 90’s using the ESP3 and a Rockford Fosgate OEQ1. Don’t worry about the 150hz filter as it will work fine. I’ve ran components and coaxes for center and it worked well every time.


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Mine's old - you apparently have the Mk2 which I didn't even know was out yet. So it will depend on which Integra you end up with... the old 424 has the 4 ohm tweeter which will match up better with the MX200.3 or MX200.4 but if they make the new 4" Integra like the new Integra 62 then the new MX250.4i might be better.
> 
> If you have to you can build your own or do the two xovers you mentioned earlier combined into a 2-way.
> 
> ...


Looks like I found a set of MRX200.3 cross-overs and part-express has the Integra 524 in stock. Same as 424 just 5" and that fits too


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

Hi
”diloudin”
i did some measurements this week and i am going to get the 524 morel for the center channel









Home


Morel Integra 524 Hybrid Series 5" Point Source Coaxial Full-RangeMorel's Integra 524 5" coaxial driver is unlike any other coaxial driver. By using a large voice coil on the woofer, Morel was able to mount the 1.1" Accuflex™ soft dome tweeter concentrically within the woofer cone. This results...




www.parts-express.com





the dash is wide open underneath the speaker area to the trans tunnel and floor. There is absolutely no backing from the dash to the floor. I have to make a box or a shelf?
i have plenty of room for a box the size of a show box at minimum.

can that speaker be used with a box? Or should I make some form of a lower dash? (Box is ten times easier) 

or should I post at parts-express? or Follow what they list in the box design section of the specs? Sealed or ported?

thanks


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Absolutely - Make a box - sealed (you're not trying to get bass from a center channel) and the recommended specs for a sealed box on PE are a fine place to start.

0.06 cuft for 182Hz F3 would be great or you can go a little bigger to smooth out the low frequency rolloff and stuff with polyfill.


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

Update - Got the system working: Thanks to everyones help! 

Shaft Kenwood KRC 3003 to PPi DEQ 230 to AudioControl ESP-3 to PPI PC650 
using CD input control with Iphone 12. All equipment was bought NIB over last couple years for a fraction of original cost. Only new retail pieces were the Morels 

8” kicker sealed box sub off channels 5/6 mounted under rear deck firing through hole in tray
Morel 424 center w/passive crossover from Audiocontrol ESP-3 mono center using output PPI PC650 channel 4 
Rear fill 2- MB Q’s 6” in series using attenuation and 4500hz low pass (from ESP-3 mono center out put) on rear deck using PPi PC650 output channel 3 
Morel Nano 6 front passive components in Kickpanels using PPI PC650 channels 1/2 

PROS: IMO Very nice sounding system for old school at medium volumes
ESP-3 really sounds cool. The L-R that the ESP-3 does work for rear fill too (at least it sounds just fine to me). Note: The ESP-3 has two mono outputs at the L-R. So with the 8ohms and attenuation (volume knob) in rear I was able to make it just enough to hear in rear when you put your head back there. Just enough to ”fill”. No delay processing though 
some songs really work well with the ESP-3. The effects of the ESP-3 you only notice in front end. The rear is so far attenuated it’s just fill

CONS: ESP-3 processing cutoff at 150HZ doesn’t allow much bass in center. Buts it’s a 4” speaker so it does what it’s supposed too I assume.
Morel Nano’s in kicks are not same as tradition 6.5“ woofers. But they play down to 60-70 no problems with realistic volumes. I did space them out an 1” and used poly fill in the cowlsides up to a pillar. 

next tune the EQ and fix vibrations.


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## Mtrhead (May 22, 2020)

Been running this system and really enjoying the ESP3 a lot. It’s like magic! With the speakers way down in kicks the ESP really puts the vocal images out on the hood. 

However with the “in the trunk 31 band eq“ I find the need to tune my values based on music and That is not possible with remote EQ. 

I would like to go back to an in dash processor like an Audiocontrol 3.1 or my alpine g180 eq. The unknown issue is the AC instructions says to put ESP3 before EQ. That’s not really feasible without lots of long RCA cables.

Would like to know form those who have tried that what is the negative? All I could see is over processing center speaker sound?


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