# best 6.5 coaxial?



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

i need a set of coaxial 6.5 for my car 
plan on using the jl hd 600/4 
i was planning to get the jl c5-650x but if anyone thinks i should consider somthing else please do so


----------



## PianoMan (Jul 12, 2010)

Are u compromising with coaxes for cost or installation headaches? I would recommend u really look closely at mid-level components. You probably will outgrow the coaxes in no time.

But if hell bent on coaxes, those JL's are a good set. Have u heard them in a demo car?


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

isnt the only difference where the tweeter is?
they c5-650 is component with the tweeter seperate 
and c5-650x has the tweeter mouned on top which makes it coax?


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

am i mistaken?


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

In this case, they appear to possibly be the exact same speakers, the coax just has the tweeter mounted to the mid. This is simply based on photos, I haven't looked at the specs. If your install dictates having the tweeter mounted coax, then go for it. Otherwise, having the option to put the tweeter wherever you want is certainly nice.


----------



## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

What car? Depth concerns? Budget?

There are some excellent speakers out there for the all in one if you don't want to mess with the external tweeter location for a stock appearance. 

One of these being the Morel Hybrid Integra 602. They are actually a point source instead of the tweeter mounted on a post above the woofer so no phase issues. 

http://www.amazon.com/Morel-Hybrid-Integra-602-Crossovers/dp/B00APNJ0GM

The Illusion Audio C6 CX are another great point source.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That's not necessarily true about the phase issue thing.



knever3 said:


> They are actually a point source instead of the tweeter mounted on a post above the woofer so no phase issues.
> 
> .


----------



## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

Yeah, ya got me there, quoting what I have read over the years. I am no expert on the whole point source thing, but I'm sure Erin could shed some light on the subject after evaluating those KEF units for his home theater. It's something similar to the whole oval speaker compared to the round one, some will argue until they are blue in the face even though in reality it doesn't have any credible sonic characteristics either way. Good luck!


----------



## PianoMan (Jul 12, 2010)

Not missing much OP - if u want to go coax's, the JL's will do the job, and well.

There are three compromises, as far as I'm concerned:

(1) Quality of the crossover. Earlier coaxes had simplistic xovers mounted to the drivers - recent offerings, however, have the xovers externally mounted, and are very comparable.
(2) Diffraction. The tweeter interferes with the dispersion and tonal quality of the woofer (though there are ways to compensate).
(3) Tweeter height. Coaxes at your feet - separate tweeters will raise the stage up.

Good point on "point sources (haha - pun!), but modern DSP have really closed the gap (literally) on separate tweeter/woofer mounting locations.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

knever3 recommended the exact drivers I was going to mention. Illusion also has the mildly lower price point L6CX. Of you can just buy some KEF cabinets and rip out the drivers.


----------



## PianoMan (Jul 12, 2010)

eddie7978 said:


> isnt the only difference where the tweeter is?
> they c5-650 is component with the tweeter seperate
> and c5-650x has the tweeter mouned on top which makes it coax?


Yes, eddie - the only difference between the two seems to be the location of the tweeter (I've only listened to the coaxes, not studied them in detail).

However - as I stated before, mounting the tweeter in front of the woofer isn't ideal (it's almost akin to having someone stand in front of a loudspeaker while you're listening, although that's an extreme example), and drags the staging down to your feet.

But again - sonically, they will be similar.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

The C5's are convertibles which means you can run them as a coaxial with the tweeter mounted with the woofer OR as a component set and separate locations..
Coax will not give you the best sound, usually always better to mount them apart from each other..


----------



## sensarmy (May 25, 2014)

The Morel Tempo coaxials are the best sounding ones i've heard to date


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

knever3 said:


> .. It's something similar to the whole oval speaker compared to the round one, some will argue until they are blue in the face even though in reality it doesn't have any credible sonic characteristics either way. Good luck!


you got my attention, what are some people saying ?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gstokes said:


> you got my attention, what are some people saying ?


theres no real noticeable sound difference between an round speaker and an equal oval speaker.. thats what hes saying.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> theres no real noticeable sound difference between an round speaker and an equal oval speaker.. thats what hes saying.


thankyou..


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

i dont have anywhere to mount the tweeters unless do some fab work
ill show you pics of my door panel

thats why i wanted to get coaxials but if your saying it wont sound right then i can do some pretty easy fab work


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

i can mount them here it comes stock in other models i just need to buy the housings 
they face towards the front i think
or i can just flush mount them


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

or in here


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I would go with components with the tweeter in the sails. If you've got a DSP, it will help.


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

I own a pair of KEF Q6 home speakers. I use them for reference in car system tuning. I'm not PERSONALLY a believer that mounting the tweeter high up relative to the woofer is ALWAYS the best idea in a car. 

I've heard a few systems lately, one that I spent some time tuning, that was a little more "old school" in their approach with the front stage drivers. Meaning, they had the mid and tweet in the kicks, midbass in doors. 

I feel that, like all things audio, (good) car audio too is a set or smartly made compromises.

Stage HEIGHT is something that I PERSONALLY think is worth compromising, IF what is gained as a result outweighs what is lost. 

Of course this is entirely a personal opinion. 

And, I realize the OP is talking about putting these proposed coaxes in the DOOR's factory locations, NOT in the kicks on axis (more or less) with the listener. Big difference there.

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I PERSONALLY like keeping the individual drive units close to each other, if possible. Of curse I don't always do it. There is plus and minus either way.

I think OP's choice of "coax" is a good one. I'd personally rather run a higher quality coax than a lower quality component set.


----------



## PianoMan (Jul 12, 2010)

Niick,

Happy New Year (I note you're in Oregon)!

All very good points. Raising the stage and increasing the distance between woof and tweet are the biggest trade offs in this discussion. BUT, with modern DSP - that almost removes the issue of speaker distance (well, when properly implemented).

Ideally, we should be able to in the car, point full range arrays at ear height, equidistant from our heads - but that would make for one weird looking car, and we'd get pulled over by law enforcement the moment they see it.

If OP needs to drop the woof lower in the door, but can retain the tweeter in the sail/upper door (and use a comparable component set) - that's what I'd recommend. 

Totally concur on your speaker quality statement - if the OP had to compromise in that manner, he should go coax.


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

ok so im not understanding what your saying
should i just get coax or mount the tweeter higher up?
your makingg it seem like its bad to increase the distance of the woofer and tweeter?


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

the jl manual says to mount the tweeter no more then 8 inches away
i can go with the c5-650 component set and mount the tweeter above the woofer if you think that will sound better? not sure what the difference would sound like having the tweeter on the woofer rather then above it


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If you have time alignment, just separate the mid and tweet, with the tweet mounted in dash corners or pillars. I absolutely hate tweets in sail panels and the resultant near side bias even with dsp.

If on the other hand you don't have dsp, stick with coax mount at the bottom of the door. One VERY important thing to keep in mind is arrival times. With the tweets mounted up higher, yes the stage will image higher, but you'll hear the harmonics before you hear the fundamentals. It will wreck the sound tonally. Each and every car that I've heard, with no dsp and tweets closer to the ears than the mids, sounded like a sub with tweets, and horrible tonally.


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

mount them on the door panel or where the mirrors are or get coax


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If you don't have a processor or time alignment on your HU just go coax.


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

i have time alignment i have a alpine 149bt not sure how to use it though


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If you have time alignment then it's ok to mount the tweets higher up. Setting TA is a very simple exercise.


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

eddie7978 said:


> i have time alignment i have a alpine 149bt not sure how to use it though


i tuned a system the other day with a 149bt. That h.u. has a MUCH easier time alignment setting method than others. Specifically a lot of new pioneers. I absolutely love the fact that in the Alpine, it's just like a processor. If I want to add delay (I measure IR in REAL TIME) I simply ADD DELAY TO THE CHANNEL I WANT TO DELAY. what a concept. I hate decks that try to make it "easier" for people by having you enter a distance, then it computes how much delay will be needed based on the distance you entered. This might be helpful to some people. But I like a more direct approach. Which the alpine gives. And the 9 band parametric.......:thumbsup:

Yeah, I like the 149bt


----------



## jwsewell01 (May 28, 2015)

I might have missed it if it's already been suggested..... :blush:

Get the components and if you want coaxial make a bridge / mount to make your own coaxial.


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

well its saying in the jl manual not to mount them more then 8 inches away from the woofer


----------



## jwsewell01 (May 28, 2015)

eddie7978 said:


> well its saying in the jl manual not to mount them more then 8 inches away from the woofer



Consider that manufactures are going to give recommendations that will give best performance in a broad range of applications. This distance of 8" is based of the crossover frequency between the tweeter and mid.

What a lot of us are here for us to optimise the complete system to our individual vehicles. With DSP you can ditch the passive crossovers and run active and you choose the crossover freq. and slopes. 

So it's ok to stray from the recommendations as long as you understand what's going on in the big picture so to speak. 
Trying different things and testing with ears and test equipment if you really want to get your geek on. 

I suggest the diy coaxials made from components because you are not locked in to a coaxial setup if you find you like the tweeters in the a-pillar for example.


Look at post #56 second picture. Now that tweeter mount is built into a diffraction ring that helps with beaming, (not a concern in this application, it's just the best picture I could find of a "diy coaxial tweeter mount).

I'm hoping that helps explain what I'm talking about.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/150865-compression-driver-discussion-3.html


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

eddie7978 said:


> well its saying in the jl manual not to mount them more then 8 inches away from the woofer


I'm thinking this is best advice ESPECIALLY if you're going to use them as JL designed them. 

AS A SYSTEM. INCLUDING the PASSIVE NETWORKS. 

However, IF you're running active DSP controlled front stage......well.......... 

Oh, I love audio.


----------



## jwsewell01 (May 28, 2015)

you can always buy a set of convertibles.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J21C20Hd0BQ


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

yea too bad the c5s arent convertable i heard the c3s tweeters are a bit bright


----------



## PianoMan (Jul 12, 2010)

Sail panel installations can work - you need to use tweeters with more directionality and crossfire each tweet to the opposite side's listening position. I know the C5's tweeters are 0.75", so they should be more directional than most, but I haven't seen any graphs.

I have heard very good installations with tweets in the upper doors/sails/even in the dash. All cars are different - geometry, mounting locations, distances, materials, etc. You don't get a mess the moment you move the tweeter away from the woofer. OP should really listen to a decent setup with tweeters high up and compare to a similar coax installation - then make the choice for himself.

eddie - if you're not up to really experimenting with various locations, sounds like the easiest for you will be to just go with the coaxials and drop them in.


----------



## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

So I never heard if you are planning on going active with the tweeter and woofer having their own channel? This would really help us out guessing and throwing out ideas if you never intend to go that route. If you are planning on sticking with the JL's and their passive crossovers you CANNOT use the alpine 149bt for time delay if you want to split the mid and tweet in your door panel. If you are planning on going active and don't NEED passive crossovers that opens another plethora of options. If you are just sick and tired of discussing it, just go passive with a coax and done.

Sometimes with a rather vague question people tend to suggest what "they want", rather than fully qualify the customer and suggest the best route for their situation. A lot goes into qualifying a customer, what car?, budget?, are you qualified to install them? Sound damping? Amplifer(s)? Active or Passive? Time constraints?

This is a great forum, but if you lay it all out there for us we can be truly helpful, and proud of it!


----------



## jwsewell01 (May 28, 2015)

knever3 said:


> So I never heard if you are planning on going active with the tweeter and woofer having their own channel? This would really help us out guessing and throwing out ideas if you never intend to go that route. If you are planning on sticking with the JL's and their passive crossovers you CANNOT use the alpine 149bt for time delay if you want to split the mid and tweet in your door panel. If you are planning on going active and don't NEED passive crossovers that opens another plethora of options. If you are just sick and tired of discussing it, just go passive with a coax and done.
> 
> Sometimes with a rather vague question people tend to suggest what "they want", rather than fully qualify the customer and suggest the best route for their situation. A lot goes into qualifying a customer, what car?, budget?, are you qualified to install them? Sound damping? Amplifer(s)? Active or Passive? Time constraints?
> 
> This is a great forum, but if ryou lay it all out there for us we can be truly helpful, and proud of it!



I have to wonder if a "system layout spreadsheet" as a sticky thread for this sub forum would be a benefit?

Oops, I meant in the system design sub forum. Lol


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

ok so im just going to stick with the passive jl crossovers 
my car is very small its a 92 civic hatchback 
im just debating on tweeter location 
the coax sounds super easy but i might like the idea of the tweeters a little higher even though i wount be using time correction


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

With the Alpine 149, I would recommend either a component set with bi-amp capable crossovers or an amp that can handle the crossover for you. This is what I was planning to do with my wife's CDE-147BT and a set of Illusion E6 components. Bi-amp capable components can be as inexpensive as the Sony GSs , but can also run you more han a grand. 

I'm actually selling the E6s now as the wife's new car is getting a 3 way setup.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Niick said:


> I'm thinking this is best advice ESPECIALLY if you're going to use them as JL designed them.
> 
> AS A SYSTEM. INCLUDING the PASSIVE NETWORKS.
> 
> ...


JL's advice is based on 99% of users staying passive and not having TA. If the OP has TA and is going active then it's ok to seperate the mids and tweets. If he's staying passive, but has TA then the best bet is that he TA the mids and keep the tweets close by, I'd just run coax. For once we're both saying the same thing.


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

what speaker wire do i need for these with the hd600/4?


----------



## eddie7978 (Feb 14, 2014)

16g or 12g?


----------



## tceejay (Mar 3, 2008)

Just installed Hertz HCX 165 6.5" coaxials in my Forester about a week ago. They have pleasantly surprised me. Mid bass is strong and the tweeters are not harsh. 
The doors are moderately deadened btw and the coaxials are powered with 100w each by a Sundown Audio 4 channel. I've always done components in the past but this time decided to do coaxials out of pure laziness.


----------



## PianoMan (Jul 12, 2010)

eddie - really depends on how much you want to spend. If you're nuts, you can go with all silver-plated 10 gauge cable.

But you are probably good with 16AWG with moderate power levels. Unless you plan to run mad power or are mounting your amp(s) way back in the trunk to power your front speakers.


----------



## CUAviator (Dec 7, 2015)

Back to the OP - any other suggestions on good quality COAX?


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

These are great and give you more mounting options. You can try them as a "coax" or move the tweeters higher up later if you prefer.

xs series components -


----------

