# Cheaper than ScanSpeak



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

18Sound and B&C get all the love, but SB Acoustics has been quietly making some drivers that are borderline "prosound."

Here's one I like a lot:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/sb-acoustics-woofers-6-7/sb-acoustics-sb17nrxc35-4-6.5-woofer/

Here's why I like it:

- it costs $58 and the build quality is comparable to my $150 B&C woofers. Admittedly, B&C gets a little bit louder and if you're chasing that last 5%, it's a good choice. But if you don't want to spend $300 on a pair of midranges, the SB is a no-brainer

- I use a lot of really cheap woofers in my horn projects, drivers that cost $20-$30. The reason I can get away with that is because they're horn loaded, I'm only using them over 2-3 octaves. If you want a driver with wide bandwidth it's generally going to cost more

- I've never seen a single bad driver from SB Acoustics. They're like Tymphany and Scan Speak, they really don't have any bad products

- Build quality is killer

- if you're into high efficiency, these woofers are quite good: 92dB


The downside:

- Like most efficient paper woofers, they have a rising response. Don't use these "full-range" or without a low pass. The cone isn't treated, so these aren't a good choice for a humid environment. Due to the low QTS, I'd personally recommend putting these in a very small sealed enclosure, but YMMV

If you have big doors, build a vented box and stick it in the door

If you're into home audio, these would be insane in a vented box or a front-loaded horn


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

you do realize these get recommended left and right here, right?


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Thanks for posting this Patrick. It makes sense. 
However, I have a question. 
What spec do you look at to determine the bandwidth a driver will play? I believe Le has to do with the upper frequency range correct? So, I would think a driver with a lowish Le would be able to play fairly high. Like around 2k Hz for a midbass/midrange driver.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

funny, when I read the title, I thought someone was asking what would be a good cheaper alternative..like usually is asked on here..and sb was what my brain said I'd be typing in a few minutes..

if you want a project with cheap woofers, tell me what I can do with eight dvc 5 woofer/mini subs from the large apple boombox? I also have the 3s lol..


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> you do realize these get recommended left and right here, right?


I posted this specifically because someone was asking me in email

I get tons of email and it's generally easier for me to post something, and then when the question comes up again I can just point them in the direction of my post

IE, it's more efficient to make one post for multiple people then to answer every email I receive


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> IE, it's more efficient to make one post for multiple people then to answer every email I receive


very true


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

DeLander said:


> Thanks for posting this Patrick. It makes sense.
> However, I have a question.
> What spec do you look at to determine the bandwidth a driver will play? I believe Le has to do with the upper frequency range correct? So, I would think a driver with a lowish Le would be able to play fairly high. Like around 2k Hz for a midbass/midrange driver.


I'd say that bandwidth is determined by a combination of the following:

3) size of the cone; smaller cones can play to a higher frequency because they beam at a higher frequency. When a cone 'beams', it focuses the energy into a narrow beam (hence the name) and due to that, it limits the bandwidth. IE, if it was possible to create a 3/4" driver with a lot of xmax, that would be ideal to cover a wide bandwidth. (This is why cel phones use such small drivers.)

2) A cone that's poorly damped will have peaks and dips that limit it's usefulness.

1) An inductor in series with a driver will create a first order low pass. The inductance in the voice coil of a speaker does the exact same thing.

For the most part, I don't use large drivers, I prefer to achieve the same level of output with arrays. But that's a contentious subject around here, I know most prefer using one large driver. It is definitely easier that way.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Ok. That explains some about induction and I understand beaming. But, what determines a Speakers damping? Which specs and are high or low values better?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

DeLander said:


> Ok. That explains some about induction and I understand beaming. But, what determines a Speakers damping? Which specs and are high or low values better?


Damping is basically anything applied to the cone to combat ringing. Paper and aluminum ring; damping can reduce that ringing, but at the expense of lower efficiency. Polypropylene and the various plastic cone formulations are inherently damped. Arguably the ideal solution is some type of composite. Some popular composites are kevlar+paper, foam+fiberglass, foam+carbon fiber, cardboard+fiberglass aka "nomex", etc.

Everything depends on your application.

Here's an example:

I use a lot of Pyle speakers, which are commonly considered garbage, just real cheap crappy speakers. The reason that they work for me is because Pyle sells a lot of Chinese clones of drivers from the seventies and eighties. For instance, I use one of their 5" sealed back midrange speakers. Those type of drivers were incredibly common thirty or forty years ago, but nowadays they're really difficult to find. They're efficient and they're cheap *but they don't play very low.* You can find similar drivers from Audax and JBL, but they've been out of production for at least twenty years, and even when they were new they cost 4x as much as the Pyle midranges.

The opposite end of this spectrum are the speakers that Dynaudio sells. They have very low efficiency and they're well damped. To compensate for the low efficiency, they have very high power handling. Which isn't cheap.

So... It all depends on your app. It's pretty much impossible to find a speaker with high efficiency, high bandwidth, and excellent damping. Some of the really good prosound speakers get close to that ideal, with very careful amounts of damping on a speaker with a lot of motor to raise the efficiency. B&C 8NDL51 is an obvious example. It costs six times as much as the driver from Pyle. The drivers on the bleeding edge of this equation aren't cheap.

IMHO, the drivers from Faital and Beyma that cost $70-$100 fall somewhere in the middle of this equation.

I <3 buying drivers when they're OEM, that's one way to have your cake and eat it too, as long as you can live with the limited selection. For instance, you can buy B&C and Celestion drivers as OEM from QSC.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pdmw6-6-1-2-mid-woofer--292-204

Hope this link works. 
It seems from looking at the specs that this could be a good, budget mid for a 2-way mounted in doors factory locations. Wouldn't it work pretty well from about 80-2kHz ?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DeLander said:


> https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pdmw6-6-1-2-mid-woofer--292-204
> 
> Hope this link works.
> It seems from looking at the specs that this could be a good, budget mid for a 2-way mounted in doors factory locations. Wouldn't it work pretty well from about 80-2kHz ?


unfortunately they dont provide any graphs , so its a major gamble. TS parameters only tell you how a driver will before near its resonant frequency in various enclosures, and tell you which enclosure its best suited for. basing it off that companys history, i wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I think I've got the five inch version of that in my garage

Give me 15 min, I'll post a response graph


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Or this. 
https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-830657-6-1-2-paper-cone-sds-woofer--264-1088


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I posted this specifically because someone was asking me in email
> 
> I get tons of email and it's generally easier for me to post something, and then when the question comes up again I can just point them in the direction of my post
> 
> IE, it's more efficient to make one post for multiple people then to answer every email I receive


I can relate, great point.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

DeLander said:


> Or this.
> https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-830657-6-1-2-paper-cone-sds-woofer--264-1088


That's a screaming deal

But don't buy them I want to get some before they're sold out lol


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

OK, here's the frequency response of the 5" version of that Pyle woofer that you posted. This is a really rushed measurement, I literally stuck the woofer on a pole and measured it in my garage. (Putting it on a pole gets you a cleaner measurement, it eliminates the early reflections. A full baffle would provide the best measurement but I'm not cutting a baffle to do one measurement  )

Here's what I see in this measurement:

1) Frequency extension is good, this woofer will have no issues mating to any dome tweeter out there

2) There's a big peak at 400Hz. *This is because I measured the sealed back version of the woofer.* If you're using one that's NOT a sealed back, it should play lower

3) There's some nasty bumps in the response. Part of this is the woofer itself, but most of it is because the woofer isn't baffled. A circular baffle is basically the worst baffle of all, and when you measure a woofer with a baffle, the frame itself basically acts as a circular baffle.

4) Distortion performance isn't great, but it's not bad either. I use these things in sets of four on Synergy horns to generate big SPL. In an array, the distortion performance is no problem.

Here's what I measured:
https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pdmr5-5-sealed-back-midrange-speaker-driver--292-200









For comparison's sake, here's Tymphany's 3.5" woofer mounted in a spherical enclosure. *This is the reason that my thread on spherical enclosures is my most popular thread of all time - THEY WORK.* The combination of this cheap ass woofer and a nice enclosure is a giant killer. This combo costs less than $15.

Here's a pic:









Here's the woofer:
https://www.parts-express.com/peerl...-3-1-2-full-range-paper-cone-woofer--264-1062


Having said all that, there's still no free lunch. The Pyle isn't as low distortion as the Tymphany, but it's still cheaper. And due to the small size of the Tymphany, it's best suited to midrange duty, unless you use a bunch of them in an array.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Yeah. I saw the thread with the midrange in the "egg". 
Well, I guess the Pyle is out, but it does look like the Peerless would be a good choice right? 
Actually, the Peerless HDS and SDS lines both look promising to me. 
What say ye wise people?


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

There was a time when Pyle was higher end. That time has long gone


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I run a pair of those in my front doors. Incredible for the price paid. I'm running them from 70-2300 with LR4 (24db) crossovers on both ends. Since I have an insanely clean subwoofer in there now I'm going to push the highpass up because they do get to moving. The cannons in the 1812 overture...THE REAL CANNONS...I thought they were going to launch through the door panel and swap sides! I'll check the drivers side in the morning to make sure it isn't hurt. Passenger side should be fine too if the drivers side is. Safelite will have my door apart anyway when they replace the broken window (neighbors yard service slung a rock with a weedeater and broke it).


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I run a pair of those in my front doors. Incredible for the price paid. I'm running them from 70-2300 with LR4 (24db) crossovers on both ends. Since I have an insanely clean subwoofer in there now I'm going to push the highpass up because they do get to moving. The cannons in the 1812 overture...THE REAL CANNONS...I thought they were going to launch through the door panel and swap sides! I'll check the drivers side in the morning to make sure it isn't hurt. Passenger side should be fine too if the drivers side is. Safelite will have my door apart anyway when they replace the broken window (neighbors yard service slung a rock with a weedeater and broke it).


 I do like your choice of music... I tested my new amplifier and forgot moment where cannons start, I also thought 800 watt JBL pro gonna pop. dynamics is absolutely insane on that one. interesting how many sapphire cutters they burned while producing that master disk...


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I run a pair of those in my front doors. Incredible for the price paid. I'm running them from 70-2300 with LR4 (24db) crossovers on both ends. Since I have an insanely clean subwoofer in there now I'm going to push the highpass up because they do get to moving. The cannons in the 1812 overture...THE REAL CANNONS...I thought they were going to launch through the door panel and swap sides! I'll check the drivers side in the morning to make sure it isn't hurt. Passenger side should be fine too if the drivers side is. Safelite will have my door apart anyway when they replace the broken window (neighbors yard service slung a rock with a weedeater and broke it).


Is that the orchestra one?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DC/Hertz said:


> Is that the orchestra one?


THis one compressed to **** and save at any level but you`ll get an idea.





Around 13:00


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> THis one compressed to **** and save at any level but you`ll get an idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


14:10


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> 14:10


 Correct but you'd have a better idea If you listen a bit more prior to that.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I got it on Spotify. Thanks.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Spotify version don't have the cannons.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Ok. Well, I guess I should jump back in here between all the Cannon fire. Lol
I guess this thread is at least partially because of me. I messaged several members on here including Patrick about inexpensive driver's to replace the blown factory 6x9s in my daughter's Camry. I remembered seeing him post about PylePro before. That's why I asked about the Pyle. 
I'm trying to accomplish this in the true nature of DIYMA. I'm trying to find that "diamond in the rough", that maybe a lot of people disregard because of price or brand. 
Being that it's my daughter's car, and we have about $300 total in the system to this point, I just need to find that really good, budget driver for a 2-way front stage. 
I feel like I need to thank everyone who has posted in this thread ( and my thread about Beyma 10BR60V2 Modeling). I have learned quite a bit just today and realize that I don't know as much as I thought I did. 
Ok...... Cannons......Fire At Will !!!!!




POOR WILL


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

The NVX version of the SB.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Correct but you'd have a better idea If you listen a bit more prior to that.


What sounds like it's winding up to it, then it gets all grand, then all hell breaks looseI really do miss playing this type of stuff at school in band. Next time I get in Claydo's car I'm playing this track because I know his system will laugh at it and beg for more. Because it's such a good track the second track on the Cincinatti Pops 1812 cd will be on my next demo cd. Lots of Timpani and I played them quite a bit. I was able to tune them without a reference or tuner and the director knew it. Chromatic scale burned into my brain


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I run a pair of those in my front doors. Incredible for the price paid. I'm running them from 70-2300 with LR4 (24db) crossovers on both ends. Since I have an insanely clean subwoofer in there now I'm going to push the highpass up because they do get to moving. The cannons in the 1812 overture...THE REAL CANNONS...I thought they were going to launch through the door panel and swap sides! I'll check the drivers side in the morning to make sure it isn't hurt. Passenger side should be fine too if the drivers side is. Safelite will have my door apart anyway when they replace the broken window (neighbors yard service slung a rock with a weedeater and broke it).


Haha that's funny I listened to this one yesterday when I received my new headphone. Got the same sudden reaction  f*** maybe a bit too much to break them ! :laugh:

DeLander, I was really happy with this one:
https://www.parts-express.com/pyramid-w64-6-1-2-pro-plus-midbass-woofer--290-025
(Thought it was 2 ohms though, apparently not)


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

At $160/pr, that's not really my idea of "inexpensive" or "diamond in the rough". I had originally planned on the Silver Flute 6.5s, but they're nowhere to be found. So I need to find an alternative. Silver Flute 5.5"s possibly?


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Sorry. My last post was in regard to the NVX. 
Elgrosso, you're definitely on the right track there. I had actually really considered that Pyramid. Just not sure about the surround holding up very long. But, for the price.......


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Ok. So, what kind of power handling and frequency response do you guys realistically think the Pyramid and Peerless drivers mentioned here would have in a typical car door location ?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Peerless spec sheets are generally reliable.

Pyle and Pyramid spec sheets are worthless.

The Peerless is a screaming deal.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

That's kind of the direction I am leaning. I think the Peerless will be a major upgrade from the surroundless 6x9 factory speakers they're replacing. Thanks Patrick and everyone else here.


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## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Just ordered the Peerless 830657s. Should be here Friday.


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