# Tweeter Phase



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

If one Tweeter is out of phase does it affect the frequency response?

I'm asking because my Tweeters are mounted on the A Pillars firing directly accross and one Tweeter has a very different frequency response than the other.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

crossovers affect the frequencies your drivers will play.

if you reverse the wires [ that speaker will move in the opposite direction of the other speaker ]

Search: "String of Pearls", which is a way of visualizing nodes and antinodes [ compounding of waves and subtraction of waves ]


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I was wondering if Tweeters were like Subs; if firing directly at each other you flip the phase on one.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> I was wondering if Tweeters were like Subs; if firing directly at each other you flip the phase on one.


Flip the phase on any driver, and you also affect it's phase with the others.

When I listen to only my tweeters and flip 180 L to R, the image doesn't really move that much, but the focus is lost a little and it sounds diffuse. Mine fire exactly right at each other (laser aligned) and they are in phase with each other L to R and also with the MR. I don't know what's technically correct, but that's just my feedback for you.

If I kill the L of the car, for ex, and just listen to the R side (TW, MR, MB) and play with the tweeter phase, it moves up toward the middle of the windshield or down and out toward the door handle.

I'd suggest listening to the phase tracks on IASCA or AS2K disks and correct accordingly.

I can't think of any reason why phase affects the FR. If you just listen to one driver and flip polarity the FR shouldn't change. You're just starting that wave a little earlier or later, depending on how you look at it. The wave should still be the same? Not sure. Good question.


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

FoxPro5 said:


> I'd suggest listening to the phase tracks on IASCA or AS2K disks and correct accordingly.


What exactly will a phase track utilize differently from setting phase via pink noise?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

braves6117 said:


> What exactly will a phase track utilize differently from setting phase via pink noise?


I don't know, hearing a person say "my voice is in phase", "my voice is out of phase." Pretty straightforward, I guess.  Pink noise makes me want to hurt small children.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> I don't know, hearing a person say "my voice is in phase", "my voice is out of phase." Pretty straightforward, I guess.  Pink noise makes me want to hurt small children.


I listen to those tracks for aligning purposes; the Tweeters seem to be a little harder to tell flipping the phase doesn't really have much effect. I'm wondering if one is out of phase already.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> I listen to those tracks for aligning purposes; the Tweeters seem to be a little harder to tell flipping the phase doesn't really have much effect. I'm wondering if one is out of phase already.


I don't get it. Phase in relation to what? The other tweeter? You only have three possibilities: in phase, Right 180 out, or Left 180 out.

Right?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> I don't get it. Phase in relation to what? The other tweeter? You only have three possibilities: in phase, Right 180 out, or Left 180 out.
> 
> Right?


Correct!

The other Tweeter. I think, but I'm not sure the right is 180 out. I'll try flipping the wires tomorrow.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The reason one has a different frequency response than the other one is because they point directly across the dash. the near one is far off axis (you'll miss some high frequencies) and the far one is on axis.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

Phase changes FR at the xo point. Set relative phases between drivers side per side first.
Each side should work as a whole. Then set it between both sides.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The reason one has a different frequency response than the other one is because they point directly across the dash. the near one is far off axis (you'll miss some high frequencies) and the far one is on axis.


Thanks, that makes since.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

So this is an on axis versus off axis issue what if anything needs to be done?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> one Tweeter has a very different frequency response than the other.


I think we need more details.

Which tweeter is it?
How do you know has a different FR? Ears? RTA?
Where is the phase set to right now?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> I think we need more details.
> 
> Which tweeter is it?
> How do you know has a different FR? Ears? RTA?
> Where is the phase set to right now?


The right Tweeter has a higher Frequency response than the left, precisely what Andy described.

I measured with an RTA.

Tweeter Phase set to normal, Mid Range reversed -12db slopes.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> The right Tweeter has a higher Frequency response than the left, precisely what Andy described.
> 
> I measured with an RTA.


How much? Was it on all bands?



> Tweeter Phase set to normal, Mid Range reversed -12db slopes.


Where are you HP the tweets?

I'm interested in what happens as my car is very similar. Tends to pull right due to the L tweeter being like 60* off axis.

I just have a hard time believing the FR is that great as the R tweeter is probably 2x as far away. Or is this a moot point at higher frequencies as they are more directional?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> How much? Was it on all bands?
> 
> 
> Where are you HP the tweets?
> ...


Ah you're experiencing the same thing and yes I believe it's pulling because of a slight difference in frequency response.


I have my Tweets and Mid Range crossed @ 3.15 kHz -12 db


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

michaelsil1 said:


> So this is an on axis versus off axis issue what if anything needs to be done?


put your berilliyyuumm tweets back where they were,

they sounded great there 

(both on axis)


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

you are talking about changing polarity, not phase. if passive crossovers are employed, the polarity change can adjust, move or relocate the stage, image, & presence of the track played.

Distance between drivers (mid/tweeter), on axis vs off-axis locale (of both drivers), etc of 2 drivers sharing a common crossover point (HP & LP) all affect arrival perceptions.

Trust your ears first. then look @ the RTA, if you compete. If you don't compete.. F! the RTA... always trust YOUR ears.

Rob
2004 WRX Wagon


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

60ndown said:


> put your berilliyyuumm tweets back where they were,
> 
> they sounded great there
> 
> (both on axis)


They are sounding better since I moved them. 


I'm just trying to anally fine tune.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I didn’t read everything, but quickly:
IME, switching phase on my tweeters doesn’t seem to do much at all. That could be due more to the fact that they’re playing a big higher since they’re in a 3-way.

It seems I’ve read somewhere that you can’t tell phase adjustments above a certain frequency, but I don’t know if that’s what I read or not… nor can I think of where I may have seen that written. (not much help, I know)

However, higher frequencies are much easier to pinpoint than lower ones. I’ve learned this through a lot of trial and error in my own car. You would think that because of this, then switching phase would easily be discernible, but I’ve just not had that experience.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

b'punk... just to clarify... you don't change the "phase" on the tweeter... you are changing the polarity...

Rob


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

What?.... 

I mean, I know the difference, but what exactly are you saying?

changing polarity does change the phase, too.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

michaelsil1 said:


> If one Tweeter is out of phase does it affect the frequency response?


No.

Flipping polarity has nothing to do with FR. Instead of the speaker move up first, it will simply move down.

Don't be confused with speaker angling, which affect FR.

Erin, flipping the polarity makes 180 degree speaker out of phase, kinda like play it a lil later.

http://www.siber-sonic.com/broadcast/polarity.html

Michael, take both tweeters out if you are curious about they having differnt FRs. Measure them with the mic very close to them, then you can tell.

Aiming across, passenger will sound different, because it is more on axis to the driver, just like Andy said.

Hope this makes sense


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

semantics ftl.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> semantics ftl.


Yea, no ****. Good God.

Panned mono FTL.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

All I am saying is that with all the novice/newbies... its the responsibility of others to use the right terms...

You CAN't "flip" phase.... you flip POLARITY... its a semantic argument... but when the newbies go to a sub woofer post or a Fs or other more indepth post... they are going to get all jacked up about being able to cure other acoustic problems.. 

you cannot "flip" phase.... You FLIP polarity...

Yes, changing polarity changes the phase cycle... but simply flipping polarity is NOT a direct/equal shift in pahse change.. this is a fundamental mis-nomer in audio...

Rob


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

"FTL"????


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

for the loss.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

Justonemoreamp FTMFW!!!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

michaelsil1 said:


> They are sounding better since I moved them.
> 
> 
> I'm just trying to anally fine tune.


gonna be a ***** adjusting your eq with your anus.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> for the lose.


fixed

semantics?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

I think this thread should be "flipped" to the garbage. 

JUSTONEMOREAMP stole my sense of humor!


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> So this is an on axis versus off axis issue what if anything needs to be done?


Try too keep your tws slighlty off axis and away from reflective surfaces.
You are always gona have different FR from L/R. the trick is to minimize them.

For a one seater, you probably ends with different angles for the right and left tws. Just take a piece of paper and draw the vectors. 
I have better results aiming the tws at a point behind the listening position. Perfect on axis response is a bit wild sometimes, where little head movements makes big differences.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'm not buying another Amp and I'm not going to move my Tweeters again. I'll live with a slight imbalance first. What I am doing right now is telling my T/A that the Tweeters are further away than they are and it appears that I'm making some headway.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

so, the problem is with staging? 


what are you using to algn the drivers' sound? what processing do you have?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

time aligning tweeters ?

You might want to drop an e-mail to Scott Buwalda { he is confused on this, apparently ]

quoting Scott B
time alignment above 1,000 Hz is rendered virtually useless. Tis is all amplitude by that point.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> time aligning tweeters ?
> 
> You might want to drop an e-mail to Scott Buwalda { he is confused on this, apparently ]
> 
> ...


I have good results delaying the midranges and tws. Try it!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I've had very good results level matching via EQ with tweeters, but not so much with t/a. 

1k+ is great for intensity focus, but I agree; alignment doesn't help as much up (2k) top as it does down low (2k down to about 160hz for me).


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> I've had very good results level matching via EQ with tweeters, but not so much with t/a.
> 
> 1k+ is great for intensity focus, but I agree; alignment doesn't help as much up (2k) top as it does down low (2k down to about 160hz for me).


It doesn't help on level matching but on phasing around the xo point on the same side drivers.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I know it does help me. Individual eq l/r, I can tell a large difference.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

TXwrxWagon said:


> you are talking about changing polarity, not phase. if passive crossovers are employed, the polarity change can adjust, move or relocate the stage, image, & presence of the track played.


 i understand that passives change phase, but they do it by the same degree. shouldnt it be the same regardless?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

quote[I have good results delaying the midranges and tws. Try it!]quote Thanx for the tip !!

That comment made by Scott is about 7 years old [ before the newer way came out ].


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

BlueSQ said:


> i understand that passives change phase, but they do it by the same degree. shouldnt it be the same regardless?


Nope... the perception of sound, the placement of "stage", "image", & "space" is totally personal....

Rob


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> quote[I have good results delaying the midranges and tws. Try it!]quote Thanx for the tip !!
> 
> That comment made by Scott is about 7 years old [ before the newer way came out ].




Bravo... agreed... quote is like saying George Washington was .... <insert comment> .... 

Rob


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

with the right processing you can turn off everything but the speakers you want to Time Align.

If you ever have a chance to TA tweets, by themselves, I'd like to hear about the gains you experience !!

Speaking of amplitude [ on-axis for speakers or adjusting the gains on the amp ], try that for ****s and grins, just to see what happens to the stage !!


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'm guessing a lot of you do not listen to classical music. T/A on the Tweeters plays an important role in getting a violin aligned the same goes for a number of other instruments.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> so, the problem is with staging?
> 
> 
> what are you using to algn the drivers' sound? what processing do you have?


Staging and balance. I’m aligning with separate L/R and the IASCA Disk, processing DRZ.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

OMG. I've never seen as much misinformation in all my life. Everyone here has at least one point in their posts correct, but there are so many mistakes that it looks like a bologna sandwich.

1. Changing polarity is not the same as delaying the sound by 1/2 cycle. The sound begins precisely at the same time no matter the polarity. With one connection the air is compressed on the initial movement and with the other connection the air is rarefied. 

2. If you delay the signal, you change the phase. There are 360 degrees in one cycle and there are f cycles in one second for any frequency, f. 

3. If you delay the signal to one of the speakers to "correct" for the difference in distance from the listening position compared to another speaker, the sound from the delayed speaker starts later so it arrives at the listening position at the same time as the sound from the near speakaer. That's not the same as delaying the signal by x number of degrees at all frequencies, because those degrees are frequency dependent. See #2 above.

3. Delaying the signal to one speaker is NOT the same as moving it farther away. It won't sound more distant. The image will appear at a point halfway between one speaker and the other, instead of nearer the near speaker.

4. Some people claim to be able to hear the difference in absolute polarity--changing the polarity of ALL the speaker in a system. I don't buy it.

5. It's true that we use amplitude to determine the location of high frequency sounds, but for speakers it's more difficult than that. The assertion that if a speaker is crossed over at 1k, there's no need to delay the signal or adjust the phase is so oversimplified that it isn't even useful. If I cross over a midrange at 1k, using a 1st order slope, it's only 6dB quieter at 500Hz. Chances are you'll still be able to hear that. That's why the phase relationship between a midrange and a tweeter is important as in the relationship between a midrange and a midbass. There is a band of frequencies that BOTH speakers play, and that's called the CROSSOVER REGION. That's the range that's affected by changing the polarity. Of course, that polarity will affect the frequency response of each channel, but it will also affect the way the left and right, front and rear, center, etc. channels sum to provide an image. Those relationships are further complicated by the difference in distance, which provides a different phase relationship for different frequencies. It's totally predictable, but not easy to fix for more than one listening position at a time.

6. The easiest and most predictable way to make sure stereo sounds good in one listening position is to connect the speakers so that they have the best possible frequency response--using a near field measurement that doesn't include the car's response as a guide. Then, time align the two channels to the listening position. Then EQ the two channels with the mic in the listening position so that the responses are identical.

Mounting the tweeters in the A-pillars and firing them across the dash is an attempt to mitigate the effects of different pathlengths for both seats with the tweeters mounted high in the car. At the listening position, the near speaker's high frequencies are attenuated by the off-axis condition. The far speaker is attenuated at the listening position because it's farther away, but it's on axis so the response is flat. The benefit of this arrangement is that it works equally poorly for each front seat.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 4. Some people claim to be able to hear the difference in absolute polarity--changing the polarity of ALL the speaker in a system. I don't buy it.


If you have ever looked at the waveform of a percussive instrument or the human voice you would buy it, you can hear it, I would not be suprised if my 8 year old kid could hear it.

But in a car, prolly not.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> with the right processing you can turn off everything but the speakers you want to Time Align.



This can also be accomplisied by disconnecting one leg of every speaker that's not in test, preferably the driven leg, which is not always the one labled negative


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Thanks again Andy !! awesome post about something this complex [ all gray area ].
quote>
The benefit of this arrangement is that it works equally poorly for each front seat.
quote>


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Thanks again Andy !! awesome post about something this complex [ all gray area ].
> quote>
> The benefit of this arrangement is that it works equally poorly for each front seat.
> quote>


Yes, Thank you.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> 2. If you delay the signal, you change the phase. There are 360 degrees in one cycle and there are f cycles in one second for any frequency, f.
> 
> 6. The easiest and most predictable way to make sure stereo sounds good in one listening position is to connect the speakers so that they have the best possible frequency response--using a near field measurement that doesn't include the car's response as a guide. Then, time align the two channels to the listening position. Then EQ the two channels with the mic in the listening position so that the responses are identical.
> 
> Mounting the tweeters in the A-pillars and firing them across the dash is an attempt to mitigate the effects of different pathlengths for both seats with the tweeters mounted high in the car. At the listening position, the near speaker's high frequencies are attenuated by the off-axis condition. The far speaker is attenuated at the listening position because it's farther away, but it's on axis so the response is flat. The benefit of this arrangement is that it works equally poorly for each front seat.



Thanks for the write up. Lets talk solutions

2. 
Are you saying that delaying one speaker will throw the frequencies of the two drivers out of phase by that degree? (gotta assume theyre perfectly in phase for simplicity here) If thats so, could it be the reason tonality of a system seems better w/o T/A?



6. 
Near feild measurement, is that the same as equal path length differences?



*Mounting the tweeters in the A-pillars and firing them across the dash is an attempt to mitigate the effects of different pathlengths for both seats with the tweeters mounted high in the car. 

--Where do you suggest tweeters be mounted? Assume they play 2.5k & up rather than 6 or 7 khz


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

michaelsil1 said:


> I'm guessing a lot of you do not listen to classical music. T/A on the Tweeters plays an important role in getting a violin aligned the same goes for a number of other instruments.


skin flute?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

should be a sticky.

QUOTE=Andy Wehmeyer;584034]OMG. I've never seen as much misinformation in all my life. Everyone here has at least one point in their posts correct, but there are so many mistakes that it looks like a bologna sandwich.

1. Changing polarity is not the same as delaying the sound by 1/2 cycle. The sound begins precisely at the same time no matter the polarity. With one connection the air is compressed on the initial movement and with the other connection the air is rarefied. 

2. If you delay the signal, you change the phase. There are 360 degrees in one cycle and there are f cycles in one second for any frequency, f. 

3. If you delay the signal to one of the speakers to "correct" for the difference in distance from the listening position compared to another speaker, the sound from the delayed speaker starts later so it arrives at the listening position at the same time as the sound from the *furthest* speakaer. That's not the same as delaying the signal by x number of degrees at all frequencies, because those degrees are frequency dependent. See #2 above.

3. Delaying the signal to one speaker is NOT the same as moving it farther away. It won't sound more distant. The image will appear at a point halfway between one speaker and the other, instead of nearer the near speaker.

4. Some people claim to be able to hear the difference in absolute polarity--changing the polarity of ALL the speaker in a system. I don't buy it.

5. It's true that we use amplitude to determine the location of high frequency sounds, but for speakers it's more difficult than that. The assertion that if a speaker is crossed over at 1k, there's no need to delay the signal or adjust the phase is so oversimplified that it isn't even useful. If I cross over a midrange at 1k, using a 1st order slope, it's only 6dB quieter at 500Hz. Chances are you'll still be able to hear that. That's why the phase relationship between a midrange and a tweeter is important as in the relationship between a midrange and a midbass. There is a band of frequencies that BOTH speakers play, and that's called the CROSSOVER REGION. That's the range that's affected by changing the polarity. Of course, that polarity will affect the frequency response of each channel, but it will also affect the way the left and right, front and rear, center, etc. channels sum to provide an image. Those relationships are further complicated by the difference in distance, which provides a different phase relationship for different frequencies. It's totally predictable, but not easy to fix for more than one listening position at a time.

6. The easiest and most predictable way to make sure stereo sounds good in one listening position is to connect the speakers so that they have the best possible frequency response--using a near field measurement that doesn't include the car's response as a guide. Then, time align the two channels to the listening position. Then EQ the two channels with the mic in the listening position so that the responses are identical.

Mounting the tweeters in the A-pillars and firing them across the dash is an attempt to mitigate the effects of different pathlengths for both seats with the tweeters mounted high in the car. At the listening position, the near speaker's high frequencies are attenuated by the off-axis condition. The far speaker is attenuated at the listening position because it's farther away, but it's on axis so the response is flat. The benefit of this arrangement is that it works equally poorly for each front seat.[/QUOTE]

told ya you should have left em where they were


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

this confused me?

3. Delaying the signal to one speaker is NOT the same as moving it farther away. It won't sound more distant. The image will appear at a point halfway between one speaker and the other, instead of nearer the near speaker.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

this confused me?

3. Delaying the signal to one speaker is NOT the same as moving it farther away. It won't sound more distant. The image will appear at a point halfway between one speaker and the other, instead of nearer the near speaker.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

BlueSQ said:


> Thanks for the write up. Lets talk solutions
> 
> 2.
> Are you saying that delaying one speaker will throw the frequencies of the two drivers out of phase by that degree? (gotta assume theyre perfectly in phase for simplicity here) If thats so, could it be the reason tonality of a system seems better w/o T/A?
> ...


5. No, I'm saying that delaying the channel by some amount changes the phase differently at every frequency. There are 360 degrees in every cycle. There are 60 cycles per second at 60Hz, but there are 120 cycles per second at 120 Hz. Delaying the sound by 1/60 of a second is 360 degrees at 60Hz, but 180 degrees at 120Hz and so on and so forth. To say that tonality is compromised across the board by the use of time alignment is to oversimplify. Tonality CAN be compromised by any out of phase condition, whether that condition is the result of unequal pathlengths or time alignment. Whether you can hear it depends on the severity and kind of degradation. 


6. Near field measurement is with the mic VERY close to the speaker so that the only sound that's measured is the direct sound from the speakers. It's as close to an anechoic measurement as you'll get. The reason for the measurement is to be sure that the speaker system is connected properly.



Regarding tweeter mounting: Depends on the objective. 2 seat listening or one? Center channel or none? Time alignment or none? Matrix processing (surround) or none? Big tweeter or small tweeter?

Usually, I suggest an on-axis placement--I always mount mine in the sail panels, but I always use a center channel and a bunch of processing. There's nothing wrong with the a-pillar deal, if that provides the best compromise for 2-seat listening, but the frequency response won't be the same at the listening position and fixing for one listening position it with an EQ will eliminate the benefit and screw it up totally for the other position.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

60ndown said:


> this confused me?
> 
> 3. Delaying the signal to one speaker is NOT the same as moving it farther away. It won't sound more distant. The image will appear at a point halfway between one speaker and the other, instead of nearer the near speaker.


One of the common misconceptions about using channel delay is that it will move the apparent source of the sound. I've read plenty of posts suggetsing that one can increase the distance to the front stage by delaying the signal to those speakers. Also, plenty of owner's manuals that explain how to set T.A. (at least older ones) often show a diagram of the speaker in some position other than the position in which it's mounted.


For speakers in a car, the origin is the same regardless of the delay. To prove this, shut off the right speaker. Play something through the left speaker. Now, add a bunch of delay to the signal to the left speaker. Does it sound farther away? Hmmm...no. Delaying one channel changes the way the sounds from both channels are added together. If the sounds from two speakers are exactly the same and hit you at the same time, the sound will seem to come from a point directly between the two speakers--if the speakers are on your right and your left.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> One of the common misconceptions about using channel delay is that it will move the apparent source of the sound. I've read plenty of posts suggetsing that one can increase the distance to the front stage by delaying the signal to those speakers. Also, plenty of owner's manuals that explain how to set T.A. (at least older ones) often show a diagram of the speaker in some position other than the position in which it's mounted.
> 
> 
> For speakers in a car, the origin is the same regardless of the delay. To prove this, shut off the right speaker. Play something through the left speaker. Now, add a bunch of delay to the signal to the left speaker. Does it sound farther away? Hmmm...no. Delaying one channel changes the way the sounds from both channels are added together. If the sounds from two speakers are exactly the same and hit you at the same time, the sound will seem to come from a point directly between the two speakers--if the speakers are on your right and your left.



Well done, that's a tough one for some to wrap their minds around.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> One of the common misconceptions about using channel delay is that it will move the apparent source of the sound. I've read plenty of posts suggetsing that one can increase the distance to the front stage by delaying the signal to those speakers. Also, plenty of owner's manuals that explain how to set T.A. (at least older ones) often show a diagram of the speaker in some position other than the position in which it's mounted.
> 
> 
> For speakers in a car, the origin is the same regardless of the delay. To prove this, shut off the right speaker. Play something through the left speaker. Now, add a bunch of delay to the signal to the left speaker. Does it sound farther away? Hmmm...no. Delaying one channel changes the way the sounds from both channels are added together. If the sounds from two speakers are exactly the same and hit you at the same time, the sound will seem to come from a point directly between the two speakers--if the speakers are on your right and your left.





chad said:


> Well done, that's a tough one for some to wrap their minds around.


x2.

so t.a = balance ? more or less

if only using 2 front speakers?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

chad said:


> Well done, that's a tough one for some to wrap their minds around.


Tough , yes. This information is exactly what I was looking for; having an understanding of the issues before trying to tackle them is far superior to what I was contemplating.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

60ndown said:


> told ya you should have left em where they were


Luke,

That's debatable ; I had issues where they were now I have issues where they are.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer;585550 said:


> One of the common misconceptions about using channel delay is that it will move the apparent source of the sound. I've read plenty of posts suggetsing that one can increase the distance to the front stage by delaying the signal to those speakers. Also, plenty of owner's manuals that explain how to set T.A. (at least older ones) often show a diagram of the speaker in some position other than the position in which it's mounted.
> 
> 
> *For speakers in a car, the origin is the same regardless of the delay.* To prove this, shut off the right speaker. Play something through the left speaker. Now, add a bunch of delay to the signal to the left speaker. Does it sound farther away? Hmmm...no. Delaying one channel changes the way the sounds from both channels are added together. If the sounds from two speakers are exactly the same and hit you at the same time, the sound will seem to come from a point directly between the two speakers--if the speakers are on your right and your left.


The mystery of quotient revealed ! BRAVO !!


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

60ndown said:


> x2.
> 
> so t.a = balance ? more or less
> 
> if only using 2 front speakers?


Sort of. There's balance in "time" and balance in amplitude. The balance control adjusts amplitude (loudness) and time is adjusted using delay. For it to work properly, both have to be adjusted.

Grandma's house isn't further away if you leave later.


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