# SQ sub choice with solid output



## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Let me first try and explain my view on something to better help what u think is best for me.

u know how rockford fosgate has 3 lines of subwoofers?
the way i see it/view it/etc. is like this
prime is for a beginner to car audio, wanting to add a little bass, enough to hear the notes that u have to have a sub for.

punch is for the average subwoofer fan. they get solid output from these subs and those that enjoy prime would say these subs are too much.

power is for bass heads and SPL guys. its really way to loud to be a wise choice for a daily driver.

so this is how i classify subs i run across. for example Image Dynamics.
the ID series is for those who want to add a little bass enough to hear and recognize that songs have bass.

the IDQ series is for the average subwoofer user (one that always wants subs in every vehicle they have). they provide solid output, but nothing deafening or hurting ur ears.

IDMAX stupid loud, not really smart to choose for a daily driver.

JL Audio
a JL 12w0 is for beginners
12w3 is for average users
12w7 is just not needed, dont want it that loud for my daily driver

now i know, everyone's opinion is different but thats how i see it. so what sub should i go for?

(2) IDQ12v2
(2) Polk MM1240 (i have the 10" versions now, love the SQ, i want little more output figure these would fit the bill but maybe they wont be much louder?)
(1) incriminator flatlyne 15" (15" because the 12" is $319 and the 15" is $340 and since this would be a single sub setup ill go for 15" for output)
http://www.incriminatoraudio.com/update/index.php?page=2&product=20 (for those not familiar with the brand or product line)

*All subs will get 870watts rms from an AQ1200D.
sealed boxes for whatever subs i end up with*

i cant decide because maybe the polks wont be quite loud enough(tho i really think that will be spot on).

are the IDQs worth the extra $ over the polks? will i even hear the output difference or the SQ difference?

with the incriminator 15" really be GOOD SQ? im 99% sure it will be loud enough. Is it worth buying this over 2 12s for cheaper than this 1 sub that might not be as loud as 2 12s?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I think there is 1 thing that's really important on a subwoofer: moving air. 
To dig low with authority, you have to move air. 
The frequency response curve can be tuned by experimenting with the box, crossovers and equalizing, but you can't "tune in" some extra volume displacement if the sub is already at its limit...

My advice: get as much volume displacement as you're budget allows.
Volume displacement = cone area x linear excursion (x-max).
The cone area of a single 15" is pretty much the same as the cone area of 2 12" subs, so that makes comparing easy.

Since the Polk has over 1/3 more x-max compared to the IDQ's, I'd say it's worth some extra money...

Incriminator doesn't give the x-max spec on their 15" flatlyne and since the x-max of the 12" version is "only" 18mm (compared to the 25mm of the Polk), I seriously doubt that single 15" will be louder than 2 Polks.

I voted for the Polks 

Isabelle


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

_Something like this is what you are describing _- *JL AUDIO 12" W6v2* IN PERFECT WORKING CONDITION. . SPEAKER IS IN *LIKE NEW CONDITION.* THIS IS A SUPER LOUD SPEAKER WITH* SATISFYING DEEP CARRYING BASS*.

*SQ sub choice with solid output ^ ^ ^*
All subs will get 870watts rms from an AQ1200D in a sealed box for whatever sub i end up going with.

http://cgi.ebay.com/JL-Audio-12w6v2...Car_Subwoofers_Enclosures&hash=item2a08ba55f4



your wiring options are either *8 ohm* in series or* 2 ohm* in parallel.


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## 08Raider (Jun 17, 2010)

If you like the way your 10 sounds now, and in one of your other posts you had talked about how you like the "response" on fast beats, then I would not go up to a 15. With the 15, you would get the output, but not the total SQ that you are looking for. The Polk 12 has a nice smooth response even on the fast beats, and the extra cone area should make a good amount of difference on the output.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

08Raider said:


> If you like the way your 10 sounds now, and in one of your other posts you had talked about how you like the "response" on fast beats, then I would not go up to a 15. With the 15, you would get the output, but not the total SQ that you are looking for. The Polk 12 has a nice smooth response even on the fast beats, and the extra cone area should make a good amount of difference on the output.


the polk 12 is deff my backup. however very few people suggest going with it over IDQ12s they just think it will be better than the polk.

as far as going for a 15", ive had so many people tell me doesnt matter its size if its built right it will handle it fine. ive seen a video of a FI 18" subwoofer playing slipknot and it was hitting every beat just as my polks would. now in the video i could not tell the SQ though, but those that have suggested the 15" said it is incriminator's SQ series of sub and it will handle it great


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

The diameter of the subwoofer has nothing to do with SQ in my opinion. A well built 15-18" subb in the right enclosure will sound better than an average or poorly designed 8 or 10", or even a well built one 

In fact, I believe you should run that largest subb you are willing to sacrifice the space for. I'll be running a AE AV15 in my current car.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

08Raider said:


> If you like the way your 10 sounds now, and in one of your other posts you had talked about how you like the "response" on fast beats, then I would not go up to a 15. With the 15, you would get the output, but not the total SQ that you are looking for. The Polk 12 has a nice smooth response even on the fast beats, and the extra cone area should make a good amount of difference on the output.


haven't heard that one before 

time for you to do some research buddy...

"fast beats" as you put it, don't really come from the sub anyway... play your 10 with nothing else running, and tell me if it sounds like ass by itself. It does. "fast beats" are made up of a bunch of frequencies, not just 80hz and down, so if you follow your logic all the way through, then all subs are horrible at producing fast beats ... by themselves. 15 or 10, 8 or a 18, it doesn't matter. pick a good sub, build the right box, and make sure everything else is up to snuff and your golden.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

step up form the MM series to the SR series, they're really nice subs, great range and apsolutly no distortion. I have a 12" sr DVC and it sounds amazing, like you said spot on. if you want the extra umph, put it in a ported box, but they sound spot on in a sealed box, and 800 watts is spot on what they're designed for, i put 1100 into mine and it handles it with ease.


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> IDMAX stupid loud, not really smart to choose for a daily driver.


ouch that hurts.



Cruzer said:


> JL Audio
> a JL 12w0 is for beginners
> 12w3 is for average users
> 12w7 is just not needed, dont want it that loud for my daily driver


I was using the 10w6v2 prior, its known as the SQ sub in JL's lineup.

I would say the IDMAX has solid output and authority. there is no replacement for displacement..and its not about going stupid loud, remember tuning determines how a piece of equipment will sound *in your car*. I went from 10w6v2 in a JL recommended 0.625cu^ft box to a 12" IDMAX in a ID recommended 1.5cu^ft box.

the 10w6v2 is good, musical with an upfront bass. with the IDMAX it can be musical and upfront as well, just need to play around with level matching and fussing with xovers..and when you want to be stupid loud..the IDMAX can be way more stupid loud than the 10w6v2.. and I'm sure it'll be louder than a 12w6v2 as well.

if you have the cash, get the 12w7. it is after-all the best sub money can buy from a distortion and linearity standpoint -- according to npdang. how it sounds will depend entirely on how you set it up.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

89grand said:


> The diameter of the subwoofer has nothing to do with SQ in my opinion. A well built 15-18" subb in the right enclosure will sound better than an average or poorly designed 8 or 10", or even a well built one
> 
> In fact, I believe you should run that largest subb you are willing to sacrifice the space for. I'll be running a AE AV15 in my current car.


Lol I'm running 2 of them, and 4 passive radiators lol 20hz about makes my car implode. Seriously overkill, but even if I'm feeling like being a bit of a bass head, I don't really have to push anything very hard. Settings are WAAY down to get it to blend naturally. Full bore the car is just stupid. It does play up to 125hz without any major dips, beyond that the amp begins to roll-off and the back seats and what not won't allow much more into the cabin. Defintely nice woofers, you'll be happy with them.

Anyway as others have said, you can make almsot anythign sound good if you get the frequency response right and get phase in line. You can't magically make a setup louder. Go for the most overall ouput over the bandwidth you need and then EQ the response down if you need to. When my car is setup to blend you would think there would be 6 15inch cones in the trunk just waiting to get moving more than .005mm. Heck you wouldnt think their is a sub in there at all.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

avaxis said:


> I would say the IDMAX has solid output and authority. there is no replacement for displacement..and its not about going stupid loud, remember tuning determines how a piece of equipment will sound *in your car*. I went from 10w6v2 in a JL recommended 0.625cu^ft box to a 12" IDMAX in a ID recommended 1.5cu^ft box.
> 
> the 10w6v2 is good, musical with an upfront bass. with the IDMAX it can be musical and upfront as well, just need to play around with level matching and fussing with xovers..and when you want to be stupid loud..the IDMAX can be way more stupid loud than the 10w6v2.. and I'm sure it'll be louder than a 12w6v2 as well.


Ya but why spend $400 or more for an IDMAX when i can spend $300 for 2 IDQs and not have to fight with them being too loud?

Why are u even comparing a 12" vs a 10"? obviously the 12 has more cone area and should get louder?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> the 12 has more cone area and should get louder?





> *JL Audio 12w6v2 Sub*
> 
> Bid history:	_0 bids_
> 
> ...


This might go for the right price


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> Ya but why spend $400 or more for an IDMAX when i can spend $300 for 2 IDQs and not have to fight with them being too loud?
> 
> Why are u even comparing a 12" vs a 10"? obviously the 12 has more cone area and should get louder?


I dont like throwing up prices and I will delete these probably tomorrow but I didnt feel you were being fair with your estimates.

edited.

I personally love that you can port a single 12 and shake windows or turn it down for a smooth response with the rest of your system. Both are a great choice.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

fertigaudio said:


> I dont like throwing up prices and I will delete these probably tomorrow but I didnt feel you were being fair with your estimates.
> 
> Dual 4 ohm 12" Sub IDMAX V.3 289 shipped
> Dual 4 ohm 12" Sub IDQ V.3 199 shipped with a qts of .397 this sub would love the port.
> ...


according to www.fertigaudio.com all of your image dynamics subs are $0.00 im going to be buying quite a few... Yet im supposed to know of this dealer that cant even display the correct prices?

Its pretty impossible for 1 person to know every single car audio dealer out there in the whole world. You can delete whatever you like, but u cant expect me to know some random shop ive never heard of and has not been mentioned during my research, then what going to delete something because i didnt? So Sorry.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

fertigaudio said:


> I dont like throwing up prices and I will delete these probably tomorrow but I didnt feel you were being fair with your estimates.
> 
> Dual 4 ohm 12" Sub IDMAX V.3 289 shipped
> Dual 4 ohm 12" Sub IDQ V.3 199 shipped with a qts of .397 this sub would love the port.
> ...


curious did you read your contract you signed when signing up with ID? because just to let you know what you did is against the rules. also whats on your website is against the rules also.

Looking at www.fertigaudio.com, I know where you are purchasing Image Dynamics products. They have been notified about you trying to sell ID product on DIYMA.com.Your ability to still be able to get ID products wil be in question!

just an fyi. oh ya and DIYMA doesn't like transshippers.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

DiYMA doesn't like whiners! 

He's a supporting vendor, so there's nothing wrong with him telling he has product X for price Y in his shop. 
He doesn't try to sell a product trough DiYMA, he only said he has a certain product!

By this: the ninja's have been notified on you being a (jealous?) whiner 

Isabelle


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

appearantly you don't see the threads that much.
yea he's a "vendor" but ID isn't suppose to be sold over the internet, and he is selling it through diyma he said shipped. thats why i asked if he read his contract.



fertigaudio said:


> I dont like throwing up prices and I will delete these probably tomorrow but I didnt feel you were being fair with your estimates.
> 
> Dual 4 ohm 12" Sub IDMAX V.3 289 *shipped*Dual 4 ohm 12" Sub IDQ V.3 199 *shipped* with a qts of .397 this sub would love the port.
> I also carry the MM1240's for 169 shipped
> ...


also you must not know who i am and what i LOVE doing. that's nailing transshippers and "shops" that sign a contract willingly then go against it. he's breaking the shipping rule plus the MAP rule that all ID dealers have to go by when signing the contract.

the lowest the ID Max12v3 should be sold for is at this price

IDMAX12-D2 - Image Dynamics 12" 1800 Watt Subwoofer

the lowest the IDQ can go for is this price

IDQ12V3.D4 - Image Dynamics 12" IDQ Version 3 Dual 4 Ohm Subwoofer

that's the rules he read and signed the contract if he didn't read he should have.

oh ya why would i be jealous? seriously? i run an all ID system


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Horsemanwill of BallBusters has administered the "*the coup de grâce*" !


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

can't help it man i'm a firm believer of ppl sticking to their word even businesss. they sign the contract they know what they are getting into stick to your word that's the most important part of business. i'm tired of ppl saying so and so shop is a rip off because they went back on their word one way or another.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Do you actually believe ID will consider stopping his official dealership because of this? 
ID is a speaker manufacturer, as long as they don't get warranty claims because of him shipping their products and he sells enough of their products, they won't give a f*** about how he's doing business...


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

hahahahahahhahahahahahah appreantly you dont' know anything about how ID does business. i personally have seen them take away their product from dealers who don't follow the rule. heck most of the time it's me who's out there finding them the one's who don't. tell you what you should go read this thread here 

datboiroy: AWESOME TRANSHIPPER! UNAUTHORIZED INTERNET SALES!

and as you can see yes they will stop him from selling ID.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Horsemanwill said:


> can't help it man i'm a firm believer of ppl sticking to their word even businesss. they sign the contract they know what they are getting into stick to your word that's the most important part of business. i'm tired of ppl saying so and so shop is a rip off because they went back on their word one way or another.


*Your Word is your Bond !*

They need to mod the contract to include . . . forsaking all others , until death do us part


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Yeah...

And how many orgasms did you get by reporting all those "baaaaad" dealers?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

ID would be wise to allow this as their set prices suck and keep me from ever considering any of them, among a few other reasons.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

i actually see nothing wrong with their prices


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Horsemanwill said:


> bout the same amount ur woman and ur mother gave me


Both lesbians! :loser1:


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

i know i had them both at the same time


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

You don't get "lesbian", do you?


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

some lesbian will still let a man get involved as long as they are occupied with another woman. i'm done bye. i'll answer any real question but you'll be ignored candisa


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

Horsemanwill said:


> some lesbian will still let a man get involved as long as they are occupied with another woman.


Not me, and I'm her woman so... wrong AGAIN


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Yeah, lesbians allowing a man being involved... don't think so


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> according to www.fertigaudio.com all of your image dynamics subs are $0.00 im going to be buying quite a few... Yet I'm supposed to know of this dealer that cant even display the correct prices?
> 
> Its pretty impossible for 1 person to know every single car audio dealer out there in the whole world. You can delete whatever you like, but u cant expect me to know some random shop ive never heard of and has not been mentioned during my research, then what going to delete something because i didnt? So Sorry.


No reason to be sorry, I didn't mean delete anything from you I just meant the prices I threw up there since the good car audio like Image Dymamics and Polk aren't to be bought online. Please go to the vendor forum and read what I wrote about selling online. Hence there are no prices on my website. What do you think about other vendors online giving a listed price. I don't do to that. I was going to take down only the prices I just put up there from me. Sorry for the confusion.


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

Candisa said:


> Both lesbians! :loser1:



NICE!!!:bowdown:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Cruzer 

amplifier being used ?

power @ 2 ohms ?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

a$$hole said:


> Cruzer
> 
> amplifier being used ?
> 
> power @ 2 ohms ?


AQ1200D

[email protected]

Why?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Without ever hearing any ID subs i really like how they are honest and say they have a good balance of SQ and spl. they dont claim to have the best of either, etc.

Im not even sure when their v2 , or v3 came out, but at their prices, there are so much better out there for cheaper. But hey, theyre making money and they are happy with how they have things so why change


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## Mahna Mahna (Mar 2, 2008)

Horsemanwill said:


> curious did you read your contract you signed when signing up with ID? because just to let you know what you did is against the rules. also whats on your website is against the rules also.
> 
> Looking at www.fertigaudio.com, I know where you are purchasing Image Dynamics products. They have been notified about you trying to sell ID product on DIYMA.com.Your ability to still be able to get ID products wil be in question!
> 
> just an fyi. oh ya and DIYMA doesn't like transshippers.


Perhaps sending this via PM would me more appropriate. You come off looking like a wining little douche. 



Horsemanwill said:


> the lowest the IDQ can go for is this price
> 
> IDQ12V3.D4 - Image Dynamics 12" IDQ Version 3 Dual 4 Ohm Subwoofer


Wasn't woofers busted for selling fake Focal product 

Oh yea Will....didn't you say you were from Ottawa, Canada when you registered with CCA? What ever happened to ID crying on CCA and threatening to sue the Admin?

Glad I sold my IDQ....ID are not professional in the least.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I wonder if those 7 people that voted on the IDQ (and the 3 people that voted on the 15" sub) know anything about reading and interpreting specs?

An IDQ has "only" 18mm's of linear x-max, the Polk has 25mm's of linear x-max and so does it's little 10" brother which the topicstarter owns at the moment.
If you can do a little math, you should realize a 12" IDQ can only move about the same amount of air as the topicstarters current 10" Polks!

The manufacturer of the 15" sub doesn't even spec the x-max of that 15" sub, but if it's the same as for the 12" version, that single 15" sub will even perform a bit less than the 2 IDQ's.

The only option in the list above that can move more air (and thus go louder without loosing low-end extension) than the topicstarters current dual 10" Polk setup is the dual 12" Polk setup!


PS.: Somebody in Xenia's MSN-list that's also a DIYMA member bought a pair of CSS Trio8's thanks to Xenia's recommendation and he's more happy with those, than with the IDMAX he used before he got those CSS's, so this makes me think ID is WAY overrated!


Isabelle


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Candisa said:


> PS.: Somebody in Xenia's MSN-list that's also a DIYMA member bought a pair of CSS Trio8's thanks to Xenia's recommendation and he's more happy with those, than with the IDMAX he used before he got those CSS's, so this makes me think ID is WAY overrated!


Those Trio's are dead sexy.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

OSN said:


> Those Trio's are dead sexy.


Yeah yeah.... I know how you think about trios Big D:laugh::lipsrsealed:


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

And dirt cheap on your side of the big puddle!

Here in Europe they cost €125 a piece (that's about $160-170) and I still think they are worth it!


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

Horsemanwill said:


> appearantly you don't see the threads that much.
> yea he's a "vendor" but ID isn't suppose to be sold over the internet, and he is selling it through diyma he said shipped. thats why i asked if he read his contract.
> 
> 
> ...


Funny how the hollowed brand you nuthug sells product through one of the most notorious transhippers out there. Sounds like hypocracy to me.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

And people keep voting on those IDQ's... 

LEARN TO UNDERSTAND SPECS! 

I guess there are a lot of ID nuthuggers here! I'm glad I don't have nuts :laugh:


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

jonnyanalog said:


> Funny how the hollowed brand you nuthug sells product through one of the most notorious transhippers out there. Sounds like hypocracy to me.


Spoke with Sean (ID Sales VP) and all is well. I am not to sell ID on line. I can have it in store. The thing is that woofersetc.com is under contract to be the only real deal when it comes to ID online. I respect their decision and apologize for the misgivings of this post. 

Now back on topic. As was stated by Candisa the Polk has the exertion and price to put you where you want to be. Image Dynamics has an amazing product and a premium to go with it. It depends on loyalty and if you want the IDMAX that is raved about.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> _Something like this is what you are describing _- *JL AUDIO 12" W6v2* IN PERFECT WORKING CONDITION. . SPEAKER IS IN *LIKE NEW CONDITION.* THIS IS A SUPER LOUD SPEAKER WITH* SATISFYING DEEP CARRYING BASS*.
> 
> *SQ sub choice with solid output ^ ^ ^*
> All subs will get 870watts rms from an AQ1200D in a sealed box for whatever sub i end up going with.
> ...


JL Audio 12w6v2 Sub - eBay (item 180535055860 end time Jul-25-10 17:11:53 PDT)

Going ... GOING ...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

GONE!

anyone have an opinion or experience with
15" FI SSD $200
18" FI SSD $230
15" DC lvl 3 $200


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

fi make great subs, lesbians *do* let men get involved in my favorite movies.
























also, 


almost anything is going to sound better then a *cockford* sub.


another lesbian reference ^


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

DUAL 1 | DUAL 2
Fs: 25.9 Hz | 25.3 Hz
Re: 0.75 Ohms/coil | 1.5 Ohms/coil
Qms: 4.78 | 4.89
Qes: .65 | ..58
Qts: .57 | .52
Mms: 246g | 258g
Cms: 0.15mm/N | 0.15mm/N
Sd: 810cm^2 | 810cm^2
Vas: 141.3 l | 141.3 l
Spl: 87.6dB 1W/1m | 87.8dB 1W/1m
Bl: 9.3 N/A | 00.0 N/A
Xmax: 21mm
Rms: 800W
Sealed box: N/A cuft
Ported box: 3-4 cuft @ 33Hz
Sub OD: 15.625"
Cut ID: 14.125"
Mounting depth: 8.000"
Displacement: 0.17cuft

The fifteen


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## armen818 (Sep 18, 2009)

I used to have a single 12inch IDMAX V3 in my old car in a 1.2cu.ft box facing the cabin and no it was not stupid loud, it sounded very good to me. i got mine used for $200

i had the bass set to -3 on my H/U and it blended very well with my germ up front, and when i wanted more bass i set the bass on the H/U to maybe 3 or 4 
that was pretty loud for me.





BTW: how about a Shiva-X2 12??


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

armen818 said:


> I used to have a single 12inch IDMAX V3 in my old car in a 1.2cu.ft box facing the cabin and no it was not stupid loud, it sounded very good to me. i got mine used for $200
> 
> i had the bass set to -3 on my H/U and it blended very well with my germ up front, and when i wanted more bass i set the bass on the H/U to maybe 3 or 4
> that was pretty loud for me.


12 idmax is $450 screw that


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## armen818 (Sep 18, 2009)

Cruzer said:


> 12 idmax is $450 screw that


Shiva-X2 12?? it sounds pretty close to a IDMAX, but half the price

like i said i got mine for 200 so it was a good deal for me


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

how will the shiva-x2 12" sound vs big 15" fi ssd or 15" dc lvl 3?

is that shiva gonna get louder than my current 2 polk audio 10s?

it costs $231 for 1 12", and while it may sound better than the fi ssd or dc i dont see it having the same output, and paying more for it?


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## armen818 (Sep 18, 2009)

Cruzer said:


> how will the shiva-x2 12" sound vs big 15" fi ssd or 15" dc lvl 3?
> 
> is that shiva gonna get louder than my current 2 polk audio 10s?
> 
> it costs $231 for 1 12", and while it may sound better than the fi ssd or dc i dont see it having the same output, and paying more for it?



its not going to be louder then the 15inch subs. the 2 polk subs might be louder not sure.


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> Ya but why spend $400 or more for an IDMAX when i can spend $300 for 2 IDQs and not have to fight with them being too loud?
> 
> Why are u even comparing a 12" vs a 10"? obviously the 12 has more cone area and should get louder?


unless you insist on buying new. used you can pick it up much cheaper than RRP. armen818 got his for $200, i got mine for $250. its not being too loud, its called headroom. if its loud you can turn it down, if its not loud enough, well, you can't do squat, just like the pairs of polk you're running now. 

i wasn't comparing, i was relating my experience.  i can't speak from my ass and "compare" a 12w6v2 and IDMAX since I don't own a 12w6v2.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Well urs isn't for sale is it? I don't see one 1 in the classifieds so what do I do? Wait 6 months from now and maybe just maybe someone will be selling theirs?

I would rather go ahead and get something now as opposed to going without?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Also if 1 well built 12" sub can outdo my 2 10s such as an idmax, for the $250 I could get an FI Q 12" brand spankin new same 1000rms power, the fi q has more xmax, uses smaller box, and I can choose the color of dust cap. And its $244


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## 08Raider (Jun 17, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> haven't heard that one before
> 
> time for you to do some research buddy...
> 
> "fast beats" as you put it, don't really come from the sub anyway... play your 10 with nothing else running, and tell me if it sounds like ass by itself. It does. "fast beats" are made up of a bunch of frequencies, not just 80hz and down, so if you follow your logic all the way through, then all subs are horrible at producing fast beats ... by themselves. 15 or 10, 8 or a 18, it doesn't matter. pick a good sub, build the right box, and make sure everything else is up to snuff and your golden.



I have done research buddy..... first Let's define "transient response" as how fast a speaker starts, and how fast it stops in reaction to a given input signal. (I know some people try to define this as motor strength, inductance, moving mass, IE....)

If you do your own tests and measure the transient response of an IDQ10 and an IDQ 12 you will see a difference in the 2. (Pick any brand of sub that is the same model and measure between the 10, the 12 and the 15 and you will see this effect of "faster beats" or transient response.

To measure the transient response, use a shape tone burst to measure the energy time curve. I wish I had made some graphs to reference but I didn't 

With the 10 and the 12 you would see a sharp climb to the peak between 0 and 1 millisecond. However after 1 millisecond you would be able to see a difference in the rate of decay of the wave. The 12" sub has a much slower rate of decay especially as the frequencies you test at get lower and lower. 
In simple terms this slower rate of decay is what makes a 12 sound more "boomy" than a 10. And the shorter rate of decay is what makes the 10" sub sound "sharp" or "crisp".
This effect can also be magnified by poorly constructed subs or subs in the wrong enclosure, and this can make a sub sound "muddy".

Now maybe some people can hear this difference and maybe some can't, but the physics and the math behind it say that a same model 10" sub in it's correct enclosure will have "faster beats" than the same model 12" sub. And yes there are some 12's out there with a stiffer cone that can match a different 10's, but this difference is usually across different models, or different brands. (for an example the transient response of an JL 12W6 is almost the same as the transient response of the JL 10w0)

And yes you can use your enclosure and crossover to manipulate the transient response of a 12 to make it sound more like a 10, but in the same regard, couldn't you do the same to a 10 to make it sound like an 8? (but usually there is some tradeoff, like a loss of lower frequency extension)


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## silentbass (Jan 5, 2010)

i didnt go through this whole thread...but i liked my re audio se...plenty for output and sounded pretty dang good if u asked me


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## 08Raider (Jun 17, 2010)

I use to love the RE lineup until I recently had customer service issues with them. I used RE for many years and never had a problem with any product until recently, so maybe mine was just an isolated incident.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> Also if 1 well built 12" sub can outdo my 2 10s such as an idmax, for the $250 I could get an FI Q 12" brand spankin new same 1000rms power, the fi q has more xmax, uses smaller box, and I can choose the color of dust cap. And its $244


also would a 12" FI SSD out do my 2 polks by a little bit? could get off pretty cheap with one of them


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## cmayo117 (Aug 14, 2009)

08Raider said:


> I have done research buddy..... first Let's define "transient response" as how fast a speaker starts, and how fast it stops in reaction to a given input signal. (I know some people try to define this as motor strength, inductance, moving mass, IE....)
> 
> If you do your own tests and measure the transient response of an IDQ10 and an IDQ 12 you will see a difference in the 2. (Pick any brand of sub that is the same model and measure between the 10, the 12 and the 15 and you will see this effect of "faster beats" or transient response.
> 
> ...


The mass or size of the cone isn't the major limiting factor with transient response; inductance is. Woofer Speed


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## mledez (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm new here, but I have a pair of BNIB Focal Utopia 33WX2 @ 480 shipped. Check Caraudio.com/forum


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> Well urs isn't for sale is it? I don't see one 1 in the classifieds so what do I do? Wait 6 months from now and maybe just maybe someone will be selling theirs?
> 
> I would rather go ahead and get something now as opposed to going without?


its been a week, so did you wait or you went ahead and buy something or are you going without? 



Cruzer said:


> Also if 1 well built 12" sub can outdo my 2 10s such as an idmax, for the $250 I could get an FI Q 12" brand spankin new same 1000rms power, the fi q has more xmax, uses smaller box, and I can choose the color of dust cap. And its $244


uh.. 1000rms power doesn't mean squat.. its just power handling, doesn't mean it will go louder than the idmax. in fact, based on the specs, if you fed 1000w to both in 1.5cuft box, the IDMAX would still have more headroom. 

12 IDMax does 93.1dB 1W/1m and 12 FI Q does 86.5dB 1W/1m
every 3dB is double the SPL, so thats quadruple the SPL over the FI Q. IDMAX has quad damage over the FI Q. oh, the sound, i won't say squat since I have never owned an FI Q.

you can easily get 1000W rating subs at $100 or less, seriously, i think you're in the wrong section if thats the basis of your comparison, try SPL area. this is SQ.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

avaxis said:


> its been a week, so did you wait or you went ahead and buy something or are you going without?
> 
> *Got a 15" fI ssd on the way, paid less than $200, just wonder how the SQ is...*
> 
> ...


From my experience, the whole sensitivity thing doesnt hold true.

i had 2 RF p2 12s, sens is 86, i fed 400 rms to 2 of them.
i have 2 polk mm10s, sens is 91, i fed 870 rms to 2 of them.

now if what u say is true, the polks should be duadruple the spl over the RF.
the RF are 12s, so they do have more cone area, so take that into factor, the polk 10s, should AT LEAST sound equal to the RF 12s?

Well from real life experience, they are not even close...

Also if u want to compare specs, the IDMAX does not even have quite 25mm xmax, while the FI Q has 28mm of xmax...

now im not going to say the FI Q would have more output over the idmax because ive never heard either. Tho my guess is the FI Q has more output, but the idmax has better SQ.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Cruzer,

What did u get ?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

According to the ID Max specs, it's sensitivity is 87db, and it's 86.4 for the Fi Q.

I have no idea where ID gets the BS 93.1db.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

a$$hole said:


> Cruzer,
> 
> What did u get ?


15" FI SSD

i know it will be plenty loud, just hope the SQ is good enough for daily driving


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> power is for bass heads and *SPL *guys. its really way to loud to be a wise choice for a daily driver.
> 
> *IDMAX *stupid loud, not really smart to choose for a daily driver.


Perfect sound and clarity @ *maximum power* 

James Bang
Banned

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,989

iTrader: (19)
Send a message via AIM to James Bang

Default Re: Post your trunk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumper26 View Post
is that a v3 or an idmax?
and iDmax v.3
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyroneshoes View Post
Lots of Id maxs.
*because they sound beautifully musical might have something to do with it. *


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

a$$hole said:


> Perfect sound and clarity @ *maximum power*


It better be for the redic price tag... might as well buy JL


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

If you are going to spend that kind of money... Get a low distortion woofer or new motor tech. Look for the JBL GTi series or TC LMS or XBL^2 or W7 line from JL. if that is out of budget then look for a sub with something in the design to reduce distortion. Like the Dayton's have or Acoustic Elegance. Otherwise, you as a consumer are getting hosed utilizing a condom dipped in broken glass without lubrication other than a bit of spit. paying a premium to run a name brand is fekkin silly. Unless you need it to look cool to friends which is sad. So if name dropper then buy ridiculously over priced name brand with no tech to back up high price or buy something that is worth it.


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## s4turn (Jun 17, 2009)

get the boston g5!! if possible 

I love mine, had an idmax10 before that and liked that too, however i prefer the sound of the boston. 

sounds clean, hits hard and goes low!


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## Hipnotic4 (Oct 21, 2005)

cubdenno said:


> If you are going to spend that kind of money... Get a low distortion woofer or new motor tech. Look for the *JBL GTi* series or TC LMS or XBL^2 or W7 line from JL....


youll be like:surprised:

then


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> It better be for the redic price tag... might as well *buy JL*


Can't lose with *JL*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxsCI2EyCvo


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

a$$hole said:


> Can lose with *JL*


I heard a 12w7 off of 500 rms in a ported box. got plenty loud, but sq didnt impress me any...

it was installed by a dealer that sells DD audio, so my guess they know what they are doing so doubt the install was bad


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## D1g1tal V3n0m (Dec 24, 2008)

Well had I seen this I'd have sold you my IDMAX 12" in a custom built box from Fisher customs for like 275$ and met you halfway depending on your location in TN. (I am in Roanoke, VA). The box is a 1.5 Cu Ft net (After sub displacement) box.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

D1g1tal V3n0m said:


> Well had I seen this I'd have sold you my IDMAX 12" in a custom built box from Fisher customs for like 275$ and met you halfway depending on your location in TN. (I am in Roanoke, VA). The box is a 1.5 Cu Ft net (After sub displacement) box.


 ya i would really loved an idmax... i want to hear an ID sub since i hear so much hype about them


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## D1g1tal V3n0m (Dec 24, 2008)

You could always sell the SSD or if it is on order and not produced you could cancel it. 

The IDMAX is just sitting here now as I have no use for it as I did a complete revamp on my system. I have a tendency to just like to try new things but the IDMAX definitely would impress you.


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

Cruzer,
Most are going to tell you to do this or that. But you gotta do whats right for you. The Polk for the price is where I would be, but that is me. If you want the ID go for it. Then you will know for sure you have what you truly wanted. Someone on here has something in their sig about complacency. Buy Try Sell... You are not going to know what you want until you try them right? Get the used one (makes the most economical sense) then if you don't like it, pass it on. Good luck man.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

fertigaudio said:


> Cruzer,
> Most are going to tell you to do this or that. But you gotta do whats right for you. The Polk for the price is where I would be, but that is me. If you want the ID go for it. Then you will know for sure you have what you truly wanted. Someone on here has something in their sig about complacency. Buy Try Sell... You are not going to know what you want until you try them right? Get the used one (makes the most economical sense) then if you don't like it, pass it on. Good luck man.


i got a 15" FI ssd for a good deal, if i dont like it, ill try something else.
i agree about trying stuff out. u wont know if u dont try.
thanks


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> i got a 15" FI ssd for a good deal, if i dont like it, ill try something else.
> i agree about trying stuff out. u wont know if u dont try.
> thanks


FI is by far the best sub you can buy, retail or custom. Let us know how you like the FI.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

FI ssd 15 powered by a sundown 1500d - YouTube - ‪FI ssd 15 powered by a sundown 1500d‬‎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4QjI1wjej4 {using Fi }

132.5 15Hz 
136.7 17Hz 
140.3 18Hz 
142.5 19Hz 
143.8 20Hz 
144.9 21Hz 
145.7 22Hz

Appears to be a hard hitter !

Getting same results with my set-up in a Civic

SAZ 1500D on whatever sub { Digital Designs , Image Dynamics , several more }


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

a$$hole said:


> FI ssd 15 powered by a sundown 1500d - YouTube - ‪FI ssd 15 powered by a sundown 1500d‬‎
> 
> YouTube - ‪132.5 15Hz 136.7 17Hz 140.3 18Hz 142.5 19Hz 143.8 20Hz 144.9 21Hz 145.7 22Hz.AVI‬‎ {using Fi }
> 
> ...


What would u guess a 12" w7 gets on average on a meter?
how about 2 rockford p2 12s on average.

those are the 2 setups i have heard that i just wonder around what they meter so i can see what to expect.

i knew it was going to be loud, being a 15 and well built by FI...
im sure ill love it as long as the SQ is musical for daily driving


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> I heard a 12w7 off of 500 rms in a ported box. got plenty loud, but sq didnt impress me any...


All subs will get 870watts rms from an AQ1200D

*Determining factor is wattage* 

Sundown Audio - SAZ-2500D

----RMS power, 1 ohm mono
2500W x 1CH
----RMS power, 2 ohm mono	1200W x 1CH

----RMS power, 4 ohm mono
600W x 1CH

*If you have enough juice to make it hit your 15 will be incredible in a ported box*


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

fertigaudio said:


> FI is by far the best sub you can buy, retail or custom. Let us know how you like the FI.


mmmm, no. I already have the best sub in my car.

See how that works? :laugh:


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## fertigaudio (Jul 18, 2010)

ryan s said:


> mmmm, no. I already have the best sub in my car.
> 
> See how that works? :laugh:


:laugh:
4chars


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

The AE is amazing, but it won't really work if you want to use a 6-sided box of a respectable size :laugh:

But yeah...15s ftw! Just have to find one that you like...


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

ryan s said:


> The AE is amazing, but it won't really work if you want to use a 6-sided box of a respectable size :laugh:
> 
> But yeah...15s ftw! Just have to find one that you like...


Meh, not the IB series but the AV series will do great in a small sealed or ported bxo, hard part with ported is getting a big enough port. I heard a fi Q today and it actually did sound very good from what little I got to hear of it. Single 12 ported, prefab box, I think he got lucky with this prefab as it wasn't tuned super high lol. It's too hard to compare subs in different vehicles so I wont' compare it directly to my AV15's, but it was a good sounding sub.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

95% of people around here are into just bass (in fact, as I type this, I can hear someone a block away through closed windows. The street is closed at one end so they have to be a block away). So I don't get a chance to hear quality subs often 

Cool part about the AVs is you can pick which one will work best for you...2 or 3 versions...small sealed to big ported or anything in between.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

whats the difference between av-x and av-h. they look like something i could afford at $200 a peice, 1000 watts is better than my fi ssd. are they SQ subs?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

well you know me ...

I'd search for : review AD whatever these two - av-x and av-h.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

but then why would i need to post ont he forums if i just read it all somewhere else


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## Louisiana_CRX (Feb 18, 2008)

Spend a few extra bones and pick you up a pair of these if you really want...*SQ with good Solid Output*


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> whats the difference between av-x and av-h. they look like something i could afford at $200 a peice, 1000 watts is better than my fi ssd. are they SQ subs?


Well had I known you wouldn't have minded spending the extra money, I would have recommended AE, in fact I almost did, but anyway, what makes you think the SSD is not up to par?

The differences between the AX-X and H are the t/s parameters.

Oh, and I'd never consider a Critical Ass, their prices are moronic to say the least.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

89grand said:


> Well had I known you wouldn't have minded spending the extra money, I would have recommended AE, in fact I almost did, but anyway, what makes you think the SSD is not up to par?
> 
> The differences between the AX-X and H are the t/s parameters.
> 
> Oh, and I'd never consider a Critical Ass, their prices are moronic to say the least.


ya critical ass i like that. Worse than JL?

Ya i wanted to spend about $200, so the AE subs are right in there, tho i did get off a little cheaper with this used FI SSD.

I have the ssd in a sealed 2.4 cubic foot box, giving it ~900 rms. Its not bad, i guess i just expected more from all the talk about FI. Though the ssd is just their average sub, the Q is probably where its at...

Like people love running a single id max 12", so im sure a 12 or 15 fi q would be equivalent.

im sure ported the ssd would be nice, but im just a sealed person. and the sq is ok, better than RF, but not great like my polks.


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## mledez (Apr 12, 2009)

I have some Focal 40KX and 33KX available for sell, very affordable compared to online stores, if you're interested I've sold some Top Line Focal on eBay like Utopia Subs, and KRX Sets, Let me know


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## Louisiana_CRX (Feb 18, 2008)

I've never had any complaints with Critical Mass...there are always the haters out there....Those who have never heard or experienced Critical Mass....I'm sure the ones who hate don't understand that quality cost...like Focal and other quality products...some say a speaker is a speaker like a car is a car...a chevette and a corvette can both get from point A to point B But i'd rather travel in a vette out of the choices...There is a reason Critical Mass was voted the best SQ sub ever...mainly because it is...no other sub compares in technology and build quality as the Critical Mass UL series......


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Louisiana_CRX said:


> I've never had any complaints with Critical Mass...there are always the haters out there....Those who have never heard or experienced Critical Mass....I'm sure the ones who hate don't understand that quality cost...like Focal and other quality products...some say a speaker is a speaker like a car is a car...a chevette and a corvette can both get from point A to point B But i'd rather travel in a vette out of the choices...There is a reason Critical Mass was voted the best SQ sub ever...mainly because it is...no other sub compares in technology and build quality as the Critical Mass UL series......


If u want the best of the best sure go spend $3k on 1 12" sub...

but why? when u can spend way less and still get pretty great subs...

Why spend $50k+ on a vet, when u could fix up say an 02 camaro drop an zr1 engine in it and bam u spent way less than 50k and its still redic fast and very beautiful car... imo better looking than a vette...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> ya critical ass i like that. Worse than JL?
> 
> Ya i wanted to spend about $200, so the AE subs are right in there, tho i did get off a little cheaper with this used FI SSD.
> 
> ...


I would have expected that SSD with amount of power to get pretty loud.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

89grand said:


> I would have expected that SSD with amount of power to get pretty loud.


like i said i guess its right where its supposed to be, i just expected to be blown away...

its louder than my 2 polk 10s, but its more cone area so thats to be expected.
its not as loud as my 2 RF 12s, but its less cone area so thats to be expected.

it fits my needs very well except i wished it had better sq, though its not bad at all. it works, im just being picky


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I'd suggest a tuning issue if it doesn't sound good enough.


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## mrstangerbanger (Jul 12, 2010)

w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 

This is the most musical sub woofer i have ever owned and i have owned it all.

But if i had to pick from what you had listed i would go with image dynamics


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## Louisiana_CRX (Feb 18, 2008)

mrstangerbanger said:


> w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7 w7
> 
> This is the most musical sub woofer i have ever owned and *i have owned it all.*
> But if i had to pick from what you had listed i would go with image dynamics


But have you ever owned a Critical MASS UL12... I've owned W7's also and they are excellant SQ subs...just a bit bulky for my taste...but still great subs...I'm with you on a budget...I'd go ID's


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## emak212 (Apr 13, 2010)

If you aren't looking to spend a ton of money and are trying to maximize SQ, I would highly recommend Hsu Research's ASW-1203. They are out of currently out of production, but the company makes some of the best valued home theater subs on the market. You might be able to find a used woofer


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

Shoulda got the Exodus Tempest 15". More linear throw than any of Fi's stuff, yet with the XBL motor for excellent SQ.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

where u buy the Exodus Tempest 15? if its under 200$ i might look into it, but i have to sell what i got lol


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Cruzer said:


> where u buy the Exodus Tempest 15? if its under 200$ i might look into it, but i have to sell what i got lol


unfortunately it's closer to three hundred. They are very nice woofers though, a step up from anything fi makes IMO. Only flaw is that they are a bit undermotored so they tend to like larger boxes.

The AV's are superb woofer. I'm currently running 2 AV15h's in 4.6 cubes tuned at 25hz. SQ is very good. In my car they have useable response up to about 90hz, which is limited only because the trunk acts as a lpf. Low end response is stupid as is to be expected 20hz tones flex my rear deck and I can do a about do a hairtrick from a pretty well sealed off trunk with a decent sized cabin. SQ is good, about on par with my Ascendant Audio Avalanche, but the avalanche fell on it's face HARD at 50hz or so. Overall the AV's are a better woofer and probably the best woofer I have used so far. Integration to the midbass is ALOT easier and they are really musical in the right alignments. The AV H and X are basically the same driver with different amounts of BL. So which is better depends on what box size you plan on using and what kind of response you want. Since your wanting to go sealed IIRC, I'd go with 2 of the X's. They'll be a bit louder up top than the H which will give you more of an audible bass. The H's excel, IMO in small ported boxes. A single sub in my alignment would only need 2.3 cubes, which is basically the same size as a normal sealed box for a 15. However you'd have to use an external aero port or else the box size would get big since the slot port or internal aero would take up a bit of space. You could still use a flared 6" areo and do a ported 15 in about 3 cubes, which isn't bad. I used passive radiators to solve my space isssue, but those cost money so on your budget that's probably a no go.


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## Dukehassard75 (Sep 9, 2010)

> a chevette and a corvette can both get from point A to point B But i'd rather travel in a vette out of the choices



Technically they're both Vettes :laugh:


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## wheezit (Jan 23, 2011)

If ur stuck on those 3 then yes go with polks, the flatlynes bl curve gets nasty above xmax, really shouldn't be pushed past specs.. u can get louder quite easily though. a 15 Ascendant audio havoc or fi q would get LOUD and you'd stay within linearity up to 30+ mm. I don't have the polks specs but sensitivity would have to be 2 or 3 db more to compete.. havocs gonna be the hard one to find under 350 but u can order the q direct from fi. On the q id get the cooling option only. Another choice would be an icon or xcon from ssa, although transient response is gonna take a small hit in turn for output. All 3 are super clean tho, he havoc and q having slight sq edge


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

such an old thread. i have the polks 10s, but see there are better for sure and plan either dayton HF 15, or AE AV 15


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'll probably do a pair of ssd 10's next for the sake of power handling. I still think you had an install and/or tuning issue with yours.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

kind of hard to get a sealed box wrong =/


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## Vitty (Feb 26, 2011)

I just picked up some IDMAX 12's. If you want me to let you know how they are once I install them I would be glad to. They will be replacing IDQ 12's.


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

Cruzer said:


> kind of hard to get a sealed box wrong =/


unless its not...sealed? ive seen a guy that owned his own audio shop for years build and sell MANY leaky boxes. 

i was impressed with my friends vanadium 10s in his subaru. im still working out the kinks in box design for my RW10s... aesthetically, it was pleasing. sound wise, it left something to be desired


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

bbotelhoHI said:


> unless its not...sealed? ive seen a guy that owned his own audio shop for years build and sell MANY leaky boxes.
> 
> i was impressed with my friends vanadium 10s in his subaru. im still working out the kinks in box design for my RW10s... aesthetically, it was pleasing. sound wise, it left something to be desired


my first ever box build attempt, was a really odd shaped box to go behind my crew cab seats. i had a pretty good size leak in the box on one corner, to the point that u could feel the air coming out easily if u put ur hand an inch or two in front of the box.

the subs sitll sounded great... the most musical subs i have heard to date(about the best subs ive heard in person are fi q, 10w3v3, 12w7,8w7) granted they were all ported boxes


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## cjj2d (Jun 28, 2005)

I absolutely loved my SI Mag 15" v3.

That sucker can take some power, get loud, and sounds great doing it. A very nice loud SQ sub.

Its actually sitting in my closet looking for a new home....


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

ya too bad they dont make them anymore... sad when a great sub is discontinued. and why? i know it sold. we all know it was a great sub.

all i got was, we make shallow subs, its not shallow, it dont make sense to make it. uhhh?????? some of us dont have to use just shallow and want a sub like the mag???? guess to some companies, the consumers wants dont matter much


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> ya too bad they dont make them anymore... sad when a great sub is discontinued. and why? i know it sold. we all know it was a great sub.
> 
> all i got was, we make shallow subs, its not shallow, it dont make sense to make it. uhhh?????? some of us dont have to use just shallow and want a sub like the mag???? guess to some companies, the consumers wants dont matter much


I believe it's because it was built by someone else and their relationship disolved, but I'm not positive of that...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

that would make more sense. i deleted my emails with SI about it =/


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> that would make more sense. i deleted my emails with SI about it =/


I've heard that the Mag was a TC built driver, but all I know is what I've been told... So, take it with a grain of salt.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i was told the mag v4 was xbl2(which tc does not do). no idea about the previous versions.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Not having read through ALL the posts...

I'd rather go with an IDMAX 12. You say it's too loud. Ummm, gain it down or reduce the sub level going into the amp. I'd send the fire down the lines and then down the gain.

I love the suggestion of the W7 though. It makes me chuckle.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

cant believe people pay $450 for an idmax, might as well pay little more and get the w7 and be baller status!


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow! I can't believe people pay anything more than $200 for a W7.


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

sqcomp said:


> Wow! I can't believe people pay anything more than $200 for a W7.


i know a lot of people rip on JL, but if you can find a good condition w7, ****, id buy one again. it may not be the most transparent, tonally accurate, punchy sub. but it certainly isnt sloppy and does a great job reproducing those sub bass notes. if i found one in good shape, at the right price, id pick one up. then again, if i could find me a DLS iridium 12, id definitely pick that sub up...haha. theres just something about those non-crushed paper pulp cones and how they sound in musical reproduction.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

1000 watt 12" SQ, or SQL sub, i would easily take the AE AV 12" over anything. brand new $230. the 15 is $250 which is still half the price of an idmax and like a third of the w7


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Hey. I know I sent you my opinion on sub selection via PM, but I'm going to put it up here too since it will allow others to read it as well.

IMHO, people spend WAY too much time mulling over the "perfect SQ" sub to get. The first thing a person should do when deciding on which sub to use is decide what type of box they want and how much power they want to buy/already have on hand. Once you know that, get the biggest sub you can fit. Build the best box you can to give you good low end extension and flat response. If the output is too much, great, you can turn the amp down which strains your electrical system less and also lowers the distortion of the sub. I also want to point out that the distortion a sub produces is typically MUCH less audible than the rattles and resonances you car can produce. I spent 2-3 times more time and effort on deadening my vehicle than I did on the speaker itself...and it paid off.

Here is an example from my previous car (Nissan 300zx):

I had two 10" RE SE subs in 0.6cu/ft boxes sealed (their "optimal" box size). I had two Alpine MRV amps feeding them 600w each (their "rated" power handling). Output was ok, headlights dimmed constantly, and they rolled off early. I invested around $650 into the subs and amps.

I took the time to learn about properly building a box. I built a 2.8cu/fu box tuned to around 29hz for a single 12" Sony ES sub. I powered it with a Sony XM-7557 amp @ 220w. With the gain less that 1/2 the output was significantly louder, headlights never dimmed, and it extended lower in frequency response. Since I built the box into the spare tire well it actually took up less room as well. I invested a total of $185 into the sub and amp.

This advice applies to subs, but really goes to car audio in general, install and tuning trump expensive equipment always.

And since you asked for advice, I'll give it again. If I had the room and the power available (don't know if you have the room, but you have the power), I would be running JBL GTi subs. Either (1) 15 or (2) 12's and they would either be ported and tuned low or IB.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

imo the whole rattling and resonance thing, u can throw that out the window. that should be fixed no matter what subs u run, how many, where they are, what box type, etc. etc.

lets also throw out the box, no matter if u spend $50 on a walmart sony sub, or $800 on a jl 12w7, u should know how to build the best box to fit your needs, be it an air tight big sealed box, or a low tuned ported box. this is a big duh.

second, lets just do a quick comparison of your jbl gti 15 vs the ae av 15. someone else can chime in and list any advantages the jbl gti has over the ae as im clueless.

advantages the ae av 15 has over the jbl gti 15:
lower distortion
lower inductance
WAY better bl curve
lower price($250 new)
more xmax
less mounting depth
and lastly, will play flat to 2k hz, where according to winisd the gti dips ported and sealed around 60hz


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> for the $250 I could get an FI Q 12" brand spankin new same 1000rms power, the fi q has more xmax, uses smaller box, and I can choose the color of dust cap. And its $244


And is a generic sub with the usual parabolic BL curve that is not "SQ" at all.

I have one still. Ran it in my last build. It doesn't "suck" but I am done with it.

IMO, good options are:
-Exodus Shiva-X2 or Tempest-X2
-AE AV
-Wait for new CSS SDX15
-Wait for new Stereo Integrity BM

I'd recommend the Flatlyne if I weren't avoiding IA for their lack of posting T/S specs for most of their stuff, and for defending the stupid decision by telling us we don't need to know, and for their immature marketing e.g. "BL curve so flat you'd think you were looking at a person dying." How can anyone buy from a company like that?

If you're considering IDQs then I'm saying Dayton. I do not see a reason to buy an IDQ over Dayton unless you can get the IDQ cheaper.

Edit: Noticed this thread was kinda old... was wondering why you were making a thread about this when you seemed to know better. Heh.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

dragonrage said:


> If you're considering IDQs then I'm saying Dayton. I do not see a reason to buy an IDQ over Dayton unless you can get the IDQ cheaper.
> 
> Edit: Noticed this thread was kinda old... was wondering why you were making a thread about this when you seemed to know better. Heh.


Ya, now its not even about ruler flat bl curve, and low distortion. what about prices? i have nothing against image dynamics, never heard anything they have to offer, subs or speakers. but u cant compare to dayton on the klippel, yet ur crap costs more? u cant compare to AE, yet ur crap costs more?

and ya its way old, like when i first joined or something. thats only bad thing about a poll, someone can vote 2 years later, next thing u know its brought back from the dead lol


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

[/QUOTE]imo the whole rattling and resonance thing, u can throw that out the window. that should be fixed no matter what subs u run, how many, where they are, what box type, etc. etc.[/QUOTE]

It isn't so cut and dry though. Common sense tells you this should be done, but it DOESN'T happen all the time. Either because somebody doesn't know or when they find out it may cost $200-500 to properly deaden a car (plus tear their interior apart) they don't want to do it. It takes a lot of work to do it right. But this is also the biggest contributor to people coming into a thread and saying XX product sucks. Sure they spent $800 on a set of components, but they just slapped them in the doors, when they sound like junk, it isn't their fault, it is the speakers.

[/QUOTE]lets also throw out the box, no matter if u spend $50 on a walmart sony sub, or $800 on a jl 12w7, u should know how to build the best box to fit your needs, be it an air tight big sealed box, or a low tuned ported box. this is a big duh. [/QUOTE]

Same thing as above, this isn't the case for everyone. A lot of people don't know about speaker modeling software (I like UniBox BTW), they just look at what the manufacturer recommends and go from there. Well, many manufacturers design boxes that either: produce a peak around 50hz or limit the subs potential to keep idiots from blowing the sub and blaming it on a "crappy speaker" (same as above). 

[/QUOTE]Ya, now its not even about ruler flat bl curve, and low distortion. what about prices? i have nothing against image dynamics, never heard anything they have to offer, subs or speakers. but u cant compare to dayton on the klippel, yet ur crap costs more? u cant compare to AE, yet ur crap costs more?[/QUOTE]

You have to understand that while we, DIYMA members, buy car-audio based products, we also source from other locations. To the general public, ID makes a good product at a fair price. Also, if you ever get a product from Dayton or AE, it will come in a basic cardboard box with no real marking on it or the sub. Those extra's that come with an ID sub may not add value, but they do cost money, driving the final price up. Or maybe they charge more for the name/reputation they have built up? Finally, Dayton likely produces TONS more speakers than ID meaning their cost per piece is lower, AE hand makes their subs and it is (now) a one-man operation, leaving the ability to lower the profit as overhead is lower. 

[/QUOTE]and ya its way old, like when i first joined or something. thats only bad thing about a poll, someone can vote 2 years later, next thing u know its brought back from the dead lol[/QUOTE]

I saw the thread was old before my first response, but I knew you were still looking into what sub to get, so I replied. I added the extra info because when I read through the thread, I saw some bad information and blind recommendations. 

When I was in Junior High, I knew pretty quick that Algebra was easy for me, it didn't mean I could teach it though. Come to a place like this and it happens all the time, give somebody a forum, a keyboard, and an opinion and suddenly they're a teacher.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

im not trying to teach anyone. im here to learn. most of my posts are about what i have read(reading designs like xbl2, AE's motor, etc. etc.)

i hope i havent given any bad information, if i do i hope people point it out and teach me so i dont continue. im here to learn, not be right.

i agree that dayton probably makes tons more money over ID so they can afford to sell cheaper and make them cheaper. however the fact that u also said they make u pay for a logo, or their name. screw that... its an ugly logo anyways! haha jk but in all seriousness i would prefer no logo

but this goes back to the jbl vs ae av. i see jbl and the gti recommended 90% more than AE, yet why? so u can pay for the logo and the name?

u see idmax recommended also 90% more than AE, why again for the logo and brand?

u see idq recommended more than the dayton drivers, same story..

granted, i dont know the design of the gti and the idmax, AE has all the info on their website, and look at the klippel tests, they are proven. now why would anyone(other than for log and brand name) pay MORE for a LESS quality sub?

its not like im trying to argue "pay more for the lower distortion driver" "you may or may not hear the difference in lower distortion". im arguing these brands are cheaper, and are better on the tests. 

if ur tired of hearing the distortion argument, how about inductance? look at the AE sub, its redic low. look at image dynamics, they dont even post that spec. wonder why???


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I wasn't implying you're trying to teach anyone, I was saying that *I was* in the response I made preaching install is more important than sub selection.

I consider it bad advice when somebody recommends a sub without anything qualifying WHY they recommend it other than something like it "sounds great". If I recall, various members made suggestions like that.

I can't say for certain why people recommend certain subs over others. Maybe because they have experience with them and know they are good. Maybe they heard they were good and are being "teachers". I would recommend the AE IB subs in a heartbeat, I own the 12's and have heard the 15's. They sound great, don't weigh much, and don't take much power to get moving. I recommended the JBL GTi subs because they work well sealed, ported, and IB and they hold their resale value very well. They have been around a LONG time in one revision or another and seem very durable. Again, I love my AE's, but there isn't as much history on these subs or the Daytons in regard to their durability. For a sub that can be bought and sold without losing much money and can be used in most any alignment, I just think it is tough to beat. Please note that I never said it was better than any other sub, just that if I had the choice (and already had the power and space), it is the sub I would likely choose.

It is my honest opinion that subs should be the very last thing a person should worry about, but it is usually the item that gets the most attention. Distortion is less noticeable down low and it covers the smallest bandwith.

I also look for low inductance drivers. It is ONE indicator of a speakers ability to hold and release energy (transient response). However, it is also a function of a speakers ability to play higher and roll-off naturally. In a sub that only plays to 60-80hz typically, it isn't much of a concern to me. I typically look for speakers (subs all the way to midrange) with a QTC (Q of speaker+enclosure) in the .4-.6 range. If the sub I'm modeling hits that mark, plays the bandwith I want, works in the box I want, and will reach the DB's I want with the power I have, I don't worry about much else. Now, I'm running a 4-way, so I don't need the extra extension .707 gives me and I'd rather have the better transient response, if I were going 3-way I would probably look for something closer to .707 and again, not worry much about the rest. Again, just my opinion.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i know in almost every install the sub only plays 100hz down, but to me thats still no reason to not give it any attention or thought.

lets just go buy sony subs then? distortion isnt audible down low, it plays very few frequencies, lets buy cheap pocket the money.

it just seems funny how u can not think about the sub much.

a car, most people look at the mpgs and its size. is it the suv they want that can fit their whole family, or is it the nice 2door coupe that fits just them and if they ever need a passenger.

but how can u over look tires, or the safety, or the reliability, or anything for that matter. u buy a vehicle it needs to satisfy every need u have.

i have a crew cab truck, i never use the back seats, but doesnt mean i want to remove them and put subs back there. i like to have the option of them being there if need be. sub only plays 100hz down, or less, but doesnt mean u dont want a nice sub? its still part of the sound, dont u want the best sound u can get?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm not saying it DOESN'T matter, I'm just saying when everything else is done right, you may be surprised how LITTLE it matters. 

Also, I'm not saying that we should all go buy Sony either (though they USED to make great stuff). What I am saying is that there are more threads on this forum about what sub to buy than anything else, when in reality it generally has the smallest impact in the overall experience. If I actually felt like you are wording it, I wouldn't have suggested the JBL's, I would have told you to get the cheapest sub you could find. And again, that recommendation is just my open-ended opinion. I don't think you could go wrong with the items you have narrowed your choices down to. The best part is, you used logic and research to reach your conclusion which I find VERY refreshing.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

perhaps there are so many which sub threads because almost everyone puts in a sub, while some dont even upgrade their front speakers.

also, people dont like to research and want to be hand fed, which hey gives some of us stuff to do.

while i do think distortion does play a significant role, i somewhat agree with you. it doesnt matter THAT much to the point i would pay $300 for a sub that has low distortion, if i could buy the same sub with average distortion for $200.

but much like i wont buy any image dynamic sub since its got more distortion, and costs more. not a logical buy


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> However great Dayton subs are, I sincerely do not believe that they can be compared to an IDQV2. Look at all the specs, charts, and graphs you want, but when you get in my car and I play some of your favorite songs, your tune will change. You will have a very difficult time finding something as transparent and as musical for as low of a price. That, and you can get a pair of them for $200 shipped and know that they will hold their value and that you can sell them 2 years later for the same price you bought them. Most people who have them have also taken extremely good care of them.


I can speak for the OP in addition to myself on this one: I don't care what you subjectively think about the IDQ when you've obviously got no experience with Dayton. None of us are saying they are bad, but the Dayton are simply better. They've got all the same good points as the IDQ, but more so.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I will add my experience here. Two of my co-workers used to compete in SQ and SPL competitions during some periods in their lives. I noticed the IDQV2 is up for consideration here. I haven't read the whole thread nor do I have the time to.
> 
> The co-workers I showed these subs off to could not believe the accuracy and transparency they had. They were baffled to say the least. These subs have an incredible reputation and yet they're now 8-10 years old. I don't know about you, but that to me is a massive testament to their quality.
> 
> However great Dayton subs are, I sincerely do not believe that they can be compared to an IDQV2. Look at all the specs, charts, and graphs you want, but when you get in my car and I play some of your favorite songs, your tune will change. You will have a very difficult time finding something as transparent and as musical for as low of a price. That, and you can get a pair of them for $200 shipped and know that they will hold their value and that you can sell them 2 years later for the same price you bought them. Most people who have them have also taken extremely good care of them.


let me ask u this. if the dayton proves to sound better than the idq, u dont think it will be more transparent?

we have the dayton hf test results and the idq test results. u can see the dayton has less distortion, less inductance(better transient response which is better sound quality, and more accurate and true to the music), etc. etc.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

ur basically saying science, math, logic, and possibly more are not accurate, not real, and cannot be used to determine which of certain things are better.

im gonna have to say i dont believe that. but thats just me.

what makes a sub sound better than another? distortion?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

power level really doesnt matter because if a sub is designed correctly, used within its thermal limits, distortion will not increase as power or as excursion increases.

just curious have u read up on something like the xbl2 motor design?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

all subs? no i clearly said the ones that are designed correctly.

"XBL^2 driver will still only have 30% of the distortion other designs have at 70% of maximum linear excursion (x-max). In many cases, this translates to around a 1% distortion rating at 70% excursion, while others are between 3 and 5%. This allows a design that yields very clean sound at higher volumes and can fully realize the potential of enclosures such as sealed and infinite baffle, where excursion is naturally higher and SQ tends to suffer at high volumes due to that. "

"As far as the technical aspect, it breaks the magnetic gap into more than one region, meaning instead of a typical motor that has a single high flux gap in the center, there are two or more gaps in the motor that have narrower high flux regions. Then, the coil is sized to optimize BL over the curve, mainly so that the coil will extend from the center of the top gap to the center of the bottom gap, that way when it leaves one high flux region, it enters the other. Most subwoofers use the voice coil to achieve a higher excursion, the downside of that is that the higher the excursion, the less coil is in the gap, so you lose motor strength and control, so distortion is increased and overall BL is decreased. Adire's method uses the gap more effectively and distributes it over a shorter coil, while decreasing required top plate length, thus the production cost. Coil length is decreased compared to designs like overhung and evenhung, so inductance is less and transient performance and efficiency is better. It's one of the best, if not the best motor design out there."

so while ur image dynamics sub is nearing full excursion, distortion is up 70% 

doubt u will read it because it seems ur not open minded, but if do here u go
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2DetailsPaper.pdf
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf
http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I haven't heard the Dayton but I'm gonna call the IDQ better. But I suspect that some people here might have only heard the Dayton but not the IDQ and call the Dayton better, even though they've got actual measurements on their side. Waah! Waah! Waah! That's unfair! Waaaaah!


Really? Are we going there?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Extreme, u just built some DIY speaker cabinets.

you should KNOW there is better out there than ID. why didnt u buy the 6.5 component sets that ID has since their so amazing? stick them in the cabinet...

because u KNOW there is better drivers for cheaper price.

why would a sub be different?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

This is turning into a retarded kid's fight.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

bassfromspace said:


> This is turning into a retarded kid's fight.


so u will fit in just perfect right?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Cruzer said:


> so u will fit in just perfect right?


The hit dog yells first.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I just picked up 12" idmax I don't have it installed yet but I heard they are bad ass with 1000w rms ...

And kids please don't fight... 
Also thread about sq and spl are all over the place here. Insstad of makeing this post you should use the search option first lol j/k just giving you a hard time ..!........ NOT ! LOL 

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Listen, the parameters for ANY speaker are not the end all be all for how it should be judged. There IS validity in looking at a speakers parameters but it shouldn't be the sole guiding judgement.

What if I told you that 10% distortion is not audible in the frequencies a sub typically plays? Would it then matter if the sub has 1% or 3% as they reach max excursion? 

What if you bought 10 "crappy" subs that had 10% distortion for the same price as one sub that had 3% distortion near max excursion? Which would setup would be better? The "crappy" subs would be better because you could exceed the output of that single sub AT max excursion LONG before reaching max excursion on the group of 10. This would mean that the subs playing as a group only had 1% distortion collectively. This is a 300% decrease in overall distortion.

There are so many factors that dictate how something will sound. The T/S printed on a sheet of paper is only one tool in helping somebody along the way.

Besides, to some people distortion IS desirable. Why do you think people like tube driven amps? They produce a warm sound because of even-order harmonics (distortion) and they clip "softly" making the transition to clipping (distortion) less noticeable.

I truly appreciate people doing research and trying to educate themselves, but until you take what you have read and see/hear/feel it to know how it translates from paper to the real world, please don't attack other peoples opinions.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pionkej said:


> Besides, to some people distortion IS desirable. Why do you think people like tube driven amps? They produce a warm sound because of even-order harmonics (distortion) and they clip "softly" making the transition to clipping (distortion) less noticeable.
> 
> I truly appreciate people doing research and trying to educate themselves, but until you take what you have read and see/hear/feel it to know how it translates from paper to the real world, please don't attack other peoples opinions.


Well to start, this is MY thread. Distortion in MY experience is not desirable. so i want MY new sub to have low distortion.

Ive had a couple sub setups, and ive heard a couple sub setups. example being my rockford subs have higher distortion and higher inductance than my polk subs, and they dont sound as good and dont have as nice transition speed. they do get louder though.

those specs translated to real life experience in MY installs.

and i GUARANTEE if i get to hear ur AE subs, they will sound BETTER than my polks.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I understand how the technology works. I understand where its applicable. However, I also understand how little you can actually hear distortions at the levels when they occur. The reason why the ID subs are best in sealed enclosures is partially because the small enclosures help control excursion, so at max excursion, you're pulling huge SPL numbers. Sorry, but I really couldn't care less what my distortion is since I'm really not trying to complete in a rolling SPL competition on my way to work every day. I'm lucky if I give them even 50% of their rated power, and 99% of the time, people who buy subs for SQ purposes don't care what happens at near maximum power.


All i hear is "distortion by subs is hard to hear". then all i hear is "xbl2 and other low distortion drivers sound dry, lifeless, etc."

So which is it? u can hear distortion, which explains why u like ur subs and u dislike the low distortion subs because they dont have the distortion giving the warm sound.

or u cant hear it and ur just full of crap?

thats not directed at you, as u didnt say that, but thats the general response im getting.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i went into this on caraudio.com/forum

SQ by definition is being most accurate in reproducing the music. if the person that made the music made it with 0 distortion, then u choose a sub that has X distortion, its not as true, its not as accurate, its less of a SQ sub than one that plays with less distortion.

True?

Now people may like ID subs because they have low distortion to the point it doesnt ruin the music, but it adds a warmth sound and makes u really like the sound. that may be what u like. but that does not mean its more of a sound quality sub than something else. in your opinion sure, but not fact.

fact is, a sub with lower ratings on things like distortion make it more true, more accurate, a better sound quality sub. lower inductance makes it more transient, which is more accurate, and better sound quality because it can keep up with anything thrown at it no matter how fast it is asked to play it.

the fact that 90% of people saying distortion isnt that audible in sub frequencies, then turn around and tell me when they hear a low distortion sub it sounds lifeless means something. it means they like the sound of distortion, be it just a little that ID subs have, or be it a lot that SPL subs have. so if u ask me, logically that means a lower distortion sub is more true to the music, but because its lifeless, and dry.

just because a sub is more accurate, and a better sq sub, doesnt mean u have to like it better. 90% of people could hate low distortion drivers because they sound dry and lifeless. if thats true, so be it. but those people dont need to argue that the sub they like is more of a sq sub. they can say they like the sound of it better, but they cant prove its a better sq sub like the specs can.

im ordering a new sub in next few weeks, its going to be a proven low distortion sub. now if i play it and its dry and lifeless and i dont care for it, im selling it and buying something else. ill go with something thats more popular, rather than what measures better. perhaps an image dynamic sub, or jbl sub would then be the best for me.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

bbotelhoHI said:


> i know a lot of people rip on JL, but if you can find a good condition w7, ****, id buy one again. it may not be the most transparent, tonally accurate, punchy sub. but it certainly isnt sloppy and does a great job reproducing those sub bass notes. if i found one in good shape, at the right price, id pick one up. then again, if i could find me a DLS iridium 12, id definitely pick that sub up...haha. theres just something about those non-crushed paper pulp cones and how they sound in musical reproduction.


My issue with the JL W7 is that it is WAAYYY over priced for it's performance. I'll stand on your point about the tonal accuracy and defer the other requisites to the enclosure that it's put in. I like the sound of the IDMAX better for SQ...that and it being able to do more with less...AND the paper cone.

That being said, I'm enjoying the heck out of my ML3800.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Cruz, you are all spun out right now, your brain is on information overload, take a deep breath, you are starting to get under the skin of some of our members, put down your computer and chill


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## cjj2d (Jun 28, 2005)

Cruzer said:


> ya too bad they dont make them anymore... sad when a great sub is discontinued. and why? i know it sold. we all know it was a great sub.
> 
> all i got was, we make shallow subs, its not shallow, it dont make sense to make it. uhhh?????? some of us dont have to use just shallow and want a sub like the mag???? guess to some companies, the consumers wants dont matter much




hey man, I am just down the road from you in the Boro.


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## cjj2d (Jun 28, 2005)

I always enjoyed my Mag more than a w7..... never had a chance to compare it to a IDmax


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok, I'm jumping back in the ring...and trying to figure out where to begin.

First, I know that if you come by and hear my subs play they will sound good. I made the baffle out of FOUR sheets of 11-ply birch plywood. The subs are mounted to the car via the ski-pass with 12 bolts. The ski-pass is reinforced with a butyl-based, heat-treated, fiberglass weave. The entire car's chassis has been foam-filled (with legitimate 2-part expanding foam, not the stuff from the hardware store). I took my time with my install and then selected the appropriate subs to fit my needs. 

I have GREAT quality subs that I LOVE, but it doesn't change the fact that if I didn't do everything listed above, you wouldn't be able to hear how clean they play from everything rattling and buzzing. The sub itself is a very small part of the equation, and it is playing a frequency range that the ear is the least sensitive to. I'm not trying to tell ANYBODY to not get the best sub they can, but if I had $300 to spend on the frequencies my sub plays, and had nothing but an amp, I would spend $200+ on materials to optimize the install and buy the best sub I could with the money I had left. 

Second, specs are not the entire equation to how any speaker sounds. Two speakers may measure exactly the same, one has a paper cone and the other aluminum...they WILL sound different. Same for composite, carbon fiber, pulp, etc. The box built WILL change how a speaker sounds. Again, I would take a "crappy" sub that is in a properly built box any day over a "SQ" sub stuffed into a prefab box. Competent execution of the enclosure for the sub is a must. Having multiple speakers WILL change the amount of distortion present. Again, I would take multiple "crappy" subs that use little or no excursion to reach the desired output any day over "SQ" sub that has to be turned to 11 to match the output.

People build bad boxes and overdrive speakers constantly. Then they come here and complain about the speaker or the "SQ" and somebody else forms an opinion off their post...when the whole time, it was the person with the subs fault and not the speakers.

Third (and I know this hasn't been brought up in this thread), the size of the sub only determines ONE thing, displacement of air (actually you also need to know the XMAX). For people who come across this thread and decide to take a peak, please understand that small subs DON'T equal "fast/SQ" bass and big subs DON'T equal "sloppy/SPL" bass. The BOX built for the sub has more to do with this than anything.

Now that all of that has been said, I will AGAIN stress that I'm not telling anyone to not get a low distortion sub if that is what they want. I'm just saying that in that frequency, it isn't as important as you think. Install affects "SQ" 100x more than the sub does. If you don't believe me, get together with a friend. Both set your subs crossover to 50hz. Set the gains where output approximately matches. Turn off/disconnect every other speaker in the car. Turn on the subs and let the same song play on both cars. I PROMISE the first thing that makes one sub sound better than the other (if you can tell at all) is either the install was done better or a better box was built...not the "SQ" of the sub.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

@xtreme -

"People said they liked how the IDMax sounded better, despite the W7's thousand or so patents and original designs and blah blah blah to reduce distortion and increase output or etc. On paper the W7 is a better sub, but somehow, most people who have heard both prefer the IDMax."

Yeah, it's called MARKETING! I'd disagree to a point on the paper advantage of the W7 on several points. The most glaring of them being sensitivity. The way I see that the W7 makes up for it's lacking is the increased cone area in the 13" version. The 12" is virtually identical in cone area.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm not gonna continue too much on this but I do want to ask a question. Why do u bring up install and box? Anyone who wants sq and knows WTF their doing makes sure the install is nice and the box is built with quality and designed for their needs. That's not the question at hand...

And crossing a sub at 50hz? Ya they are all gonna be pretty simlar playing only ~20 frequencies... I cross my subs at 100hz. That's 3 times the frequncies I guess ur sub is playing. So I need a sub that will sound good crossed that high. Maybe it's not distortion, but my Rockford subs sound like poo crossed higher than 60/70 hz

no one answered my question. If distortion is pretty useless for subs, why do companies waste time, money, etc. Coming up with designs to significantly lower distortion, aim for a nice bl curve, lower inductance, etc? It's a waste according to you guys...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i dont buy that its marketing. maybe it is, but ive also read a few people's responses that have said they heard your typical sub and then heard an xbl2 sub and they said they could hear the difference and wont go back to typical subs. guess its all in their head?

jl is supposedly all about marketing, but do their products suck? no and everyone will tell u they dont suck. most just dont like the price

there are a few spl guys that have tried some of the high power handling TC sounds subs, and they are all amazed as the sound and accuracy of the driver compared to the other drivers. guess its all in their head because its just marketing.

also, its not necessarily high spl levels that distortion comes into play. what if u have a 200 watt rms sub and ur using 200 watts to push it. u might not even be at 100 db but the sub is using most of its xmax and thermal abilities, thus its being pushed hard, thus distortion is increasing/increased.

cone material may change the sound, but i dont think if u changed the IDQ cone material to something else, u would then go wow it sucks now.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

XtremeRevolution said:


> And what are you contributing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My contribution is pointing out the fact that neither you, dragonrage, or cruzer no what you're talking abouy, yet each of you are spouting off as if you invented speakers.

Pionkej has given the best advice in this thread and all 3 of you skipped over it to continue your spat.

My advice would be less talk and more reading.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

but we didnt ask for ur advice

but this is a forum where we can talk all we want


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

sqcomp said:


> My issue with the JL W7 is that it is WAAYYY over priced for it's performance. I'll stand on your point about the tonal accuracy and defer the other requisites to the enclosure that it's put in. I like the sound of the IDMAX better for SQ...that and it being able to do more with less...AND the paper cone.
> 
> That being said, I'm enjoying the heck out of my ML3800.


How exactly is the w7 overpriced? After a decade on the market, it's remained mechanically unchanged, yet still considered the pinnacle of subwooferage.

Name one other sub on the market that has done that.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

XtremeRevolution said:


> It is not considered the pinnacle of "subwooferage" which isn't a word. Anyone who believes that has bought very heavily into the marketing on their webpage or has spent the $800-$1000 or so on it and is convinced beyond all doubt that it is worth every dollar. To admit otherwise would be to admit they made a bad choice. The IDMax is one sub that holds its ground against it at half the price and is preferred the majority of the time to those who have heard both. Just because the W7 is more popular doesn't mean its better.


How so?

On paper, it's measured with the best of 'em.

It had upper- 20's xmax in 2000 when only a handful of non-car audio subs had that.

Richard Clark ran 50,000 watts through a single 13 and it didn't blow.

Nate Munson pegged 170's with one in his SPL setup.

It transitioned over to home audio and won rave reviews. Our own Chad uses them in his studio and loves them. Mark Eldridge uses one in his reference system when he conducts his seminars.

Hmmmmmm...


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I thought we just spent the last 2 pages talking about what's on paper.
> 
> I'm glad someone ran 50,000 watts through on one and it didn't blow. At what voltage? How did it sound? Proof?
> 
> ...


I figured you'd miss the point of my post.

The idea behind it was to counter your point, "JL brags more about marketing than anything". I just gave you some cold hard facts to sleep on. The sub measures well (which directly correlates to sound), is rugged, durable, and loud.

What else would you want from a sub?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Something affordable would be a good start.


They're very affordable on the used market. I sold two 12's and a box last year for 500 bux.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> I'm not gonna continue too much on this but I do want to ask a question. Why do u bring up install and box? Anyone who wants sq and knows WTF their doing makes sure the install is nice and the box is built with quality and designed for their needs. That's not the question at hand...
> 
> And crossing a sub at 50hz? Ya they are all gonna be pretty simlar playing only ~20 frequencies... I cross my subs at 100hz. That's 3 times the frequncies I guess ur sub is playing. So I need a sub that will sound good crossed that high. Maybe it's not distortion, but my Rockford subs sound like poo crossed higher than 60/70 hz
> 
> no one answered my question. If distortion is pretty useless for subs, why do companies waste time, money, etc. Coming up with designs to significantly lower distortion, aim for a nice bl curve, lower inductance, etc? It's a waste according to you guys...


This will be my last response in this thread and then I'm out. The reason I keep bringing up box design and install practice is because it IS the most important part of the install. For all speakers...and that includes subs. 

Subs CAN model the same BUT SOUND DIFFERENT. This is where things like lower distortion and nice bl curves come into play. BUT subs also play the frequency band the human ear is least sensitive to. So, I will argue that if you build a good box (flat response), don't push the sub past it's physical limits, and have an install with no rattles; the rest doesn't matter much. I will also say that the "SQ" of a sub depends less on the sub itself than how well you match up the sub/midbass transition. That is the reason lower inductance subs blend so well, they can play higher which typically makes that transition easier.

So if you can get a lower distortion, lower LE sub for less than an "inferior" sub AND it models well in the box you intend to build for it...by all means, get the better sub. I'm just trying to stress the point that if you get all the other pieces in the right place, the sub that fills the hole will be the least important part of the puzzle.


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## 000zero (Mar 12, 2011)

Not sure if anyone said this yet but woofersetc.com is an authorized dealer of image dynamics products it even says so on their website (in response to someone who said ID products are not allowed to be sold online)


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Excellent summary!


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

bassfromspace said:


> How exactly is the w7 overpriced? After a decade on the market, it's remained mechanically unchanged, yet still considered the pinnacle of subwooferage.
> 
> Name one other sub on the market that has done that.


ha and u are here telling us we know nothing! too funny


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

typical sub=overhung motor, the most standard design and been around forever. just that, typical.

ill give u one thing, ID subs model well sealed, like i have not found a sub that can out do it according to winisd(and thats output, not SQ).

if we cant hear distortion unless its over 10% i would say the ID sub isnt 3% distortion, and those that design to lower distortion get it to 10% or below, where others are above.

anyways, ive tried like 4-5 subs, and now im going to try this low distortion sub. we shall see. if i dont see a difference, and the output lacks or i dont like the sound, ill sell it and pick up an image dynamics, how about that?


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## Mako312 (May 10, 2010)

I love my Idmax 10. Trying to get another one. Great sub.

Can't wait to get another car so I can install it back in. Only paid $200 for mine. Brand new and unpowered so I caught a deal. Although it has no warranty. I'm ok with that.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

So what does everyone think makes a sub sound better than another? I don't mean things like transparent, blends well, etc I mean in the design

the cone material gives it a different sound, but what else? Distortion doesn't matter apparently, apparently inductance doesn't, etc


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

JL says distortion and cone rigidity is a huge factor to sound quality, and fast transitions.
JL Audio W6v2 DMA - Car Audio Subwoofers
JL Audio W6v2 W-Cone - Car Audio Subwoofers

the dayton says:
Lightweight black anodized aluminum cone for rigidity and lower moving mass
Triple shorting ring motor for ultra-low distortion

anyone know what the IDQ or ID subs in general feature?

found this
IDQ - Poly Mica Cone - Ultra rigid design mica reinforced polypropylene.
IDMAX - Cone - Structural pressed paper composite cone. Pressed long strand paper pulp reinforced with glass fiber and impregnated with resin. Curved concave cone profile and ultra rigid cone material creates a piston of incredible strength and very Low Mass. This cone structure is devoid of noise and resonance and withstands the stresses of high SPL. 

nothing about distortion though, maybe its in the motor design but not told of how


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> JL says distortion and cone rigidity is a huge factor to sound quality, and fast transitions.
> JL Audio W6v2 DMA - Car Audio Subwoofers
> JL Audio W6v2 W-Cone - Car Audio Subwoofers
> 
> ...


Found this in another thread...



> I have never heard the *Dayton* before but here are few things to consider and why.
> 
> The *Dayton* SPL is rated at 88dB at 2.83 volts at 1 meter, The IDQ12 V.2 rated in the same manner, with 2 watts or 2.83 volts relative to a 4 ohm load is a full 3.7 dB more efficient based upon nominal efficiency (88.7 No and 91.7 with 2.83 volts). That is the equivalent of doubling the *amplifier* power.
> 
> ...


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## cjj2d (Jun 28, 2005)

really its all subjective..... everyone has a different preference on what sounds good to them, for the most part.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> So what does everyone think makes a sub sound better than another? I don't mean things like transparent, blends well, etc I mean in the design
> 
> *the cone material gives it a different sound, but what else? Distortion doesn't matter apparently, apparently inductance doesn't, etc*


If the above comment is directed toward my posts, please stop misquoting me. I never said it doesn't matter, just that WHAT you do with a sub is much more important. 

I feel like I'm treading water, but I'll say it again.

I already said that subs CAN sound different, but that difference really is minor (and probably not noticeable) if you get everything else right. First, the two major things that make a sub sound bad: pushing the driver past it's physical limits (either by trying to push it past XMAX or putting it in an improperly designed box) and by having tons of rattles/resonance. If you get those two things right, the next most important step is working on the sub to midbass transition. Those three things will go the furthest in have a "SQ" sub.

If you have the ability to square those things away properly, you can move on to which sub do you want. Again, if you can find two subs that model similar in the box you want/have room for, make full use of the power you have available, and are around the same price; I WOULD suggest picking the one that has the best paramters (looking at them, I would go for lowest LE, lowest MMS, highest BL). I WOULDN'T worry much about distortion on a sub, because getting the biggest sub you can fit and building the best box you can, you SHOULD be able to keep XMAX low which will take care of any potential distortion issues.

For example, somebody can fit a 12" sub that has ok distortion performance, but has 87db sensitivity. Instead, they find a super low distortion (with shorting rings) 10" sub that has 84db sensitivity and buy that because the "paper specs". Both subs have 18mm of XMAX. Now, because of the increased sensitivity and larger surface area, the 12" sub will have greater output than the 10" (if both are in a box maximized for their performance). Therefore, if you only need the ouput the 10" sub is capable of producing at full-tilt, the 12" sub will exceed it (so you can scale it back) and have MUCH lower distortion.

Cruzer, since you are local, I'd be happy to work an experiment with you. I have an Old School Sony ES 12" sub. I have no idea what the T/S parameters are (but I do have a WT3 so I can find them). If you tell me the largest box size you would be willing to live with, I'll give you the sub as long as you build the box I want for it. If you don't like it, I'm sure you could sell it for your cost in materials...if you do like it, you can still keep it, I just want you to realize that application and execution typically do matter more than specs. I paid $75 for the sub when I got it.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I would like to introduce my new sub. It sounds so nice, i don't think i will ever go with another sub. JL 10w7 that I had, was really good. But IDMAX - No briner.... Now i could hear music the way it should sound!


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Argh. So much stupidity in here.

Moving mass is important RELATIVE TO MOTOR STRENGTH which is BL^2 / Re. But then you've got to take suspension into account. You cannot just pick one T/S parameter and say that a product is better because of it. Mms is one of many, many factors.

So here we are, listing JL Audio's reasons why JL is the best, Image Dynamics reasons why ID is the best, even though tests SHOW Eric to be a liar, whether he knows it or not.

If you want to buy JL, then do it. If you want to buy ID, then do it. The Dayton is a better driver than the W6 and the IDQ. Period. The only reason I don't say W7/IDMAX there is because the Dayton, like the IDQ, only has a moderate Xmax.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Seems like I'm learning something every day.
> 
> So it can then be inferred that at moderate to comfortably loud listening levels, an ID sub given its higher sensitivity is actually a lower distortion sub at the same SPL levels than a sub that's lower distortion on paper but has a lower sensitivity as well.
> 
> I had misunderstood your post initially as well. I got the impression that so long as you build a sub that has a box to spec, it will sound the same as another sub. I missed the part where the comparison was between two subs that model similarly. That threw me off because of the experience I had with the Hifonics 15" sub. That's one sub where no matter what box you build for it, it will never be more than a loose, uncontrolled, and slow SPL monster. It was the opposite of transparent, and the opposite of tight and fast.


I'm not necessarily saying that either (it certainly isn't ID specific and I think brands should be left out). What I am saying is that distortion performance is directly related to excursion. The harder a speaker is pushed, the higher the distortion will be. IF you can get a speaker to perform at the output YOU want (high or low doesn't matter either) and keep excursion to a minimum, it will also have minimal distortion (doesn't matter if the driver has high or low distortion--at low excursion it will be lower for that speaker).

I have mentioned what subs I'm running in my setup, but it really doesn't matter. I have (2) 12" subs IB. Typically an IB install has great low-end extension, minimal group delay, but reduced power handling and output because of the lack of an "air spring" provided by a box. This is why I used two driver (and I would have ran three, or 15's, if I had room). Increasing the number of drivers allowed me to double the output without stressing the speakers. Because of cabin gain, and the levels needed to match with my front speakers, I can reach MY full desired output without seeing the subs move at all. It doesn't matter if they are low or high distortion drivers, their excursion is so low at full output that the distortion is below the audible level for that frequency.

I will make an argument FOR low distortion drivers in the midbass/midrange area. I feel it is MUCH more important, but still not a make or break scenario. Enclosure design, or if you don't have an enclosure, speaker modeling in your "IB" doors is still much more important.

Lastly, I disagree that your HiFonics sub couldn't sound good. When people use words like "slow", "loose", and "uncontrolled" it is almost always a function of box design and not the speaker itself. If you know what model the sub was, and what kind of box you had it in (if ported I need to know volume AND tuning frequency), I can SHOW you what I mean. I'm not saying that the box would be a car-friendly size to make an SPL optimized sub play nice, but I can do it for the sake of an example.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You have gone against everything several people here have said saying the Dayton sub rules all and is better than anything comparable that Image Dynamics or JL Audio has. Who are you kidding? You say so many parameters need to be taken into consideration yet you fail to consider so many parameters.


Here you are again, not understanding a damn thing. Measured performance takes all of the T/S parameters into account, as well as other factors that are not contained within T/S. How exactly do you get from one T/S parameter not being enough to MEASURED REAL-WORLD PERFORMANCE of a speaker not being enough?

Just so you know, I now have you on ignore.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> Argh. So much stupidity in here.
> 
> Moving mass is important RELATIVE TO MOTOR STRENGTH which is BL^2 / Re. But then you've got to take suspension into account. You cannot just pick one T/S parameter and say that a product is better because of it. Mms is one of many, many factors.
> 
> ...


Which is why I said I would look for low inductance (LE) first to help with midbass blending, and look for a good MMS/BL because those specs typically show a speaker with good control. I would model the speaker to have a QTC (Q of speaker and enclosure) between .45 and .7 (the lower the number the earlier the roll-off, but also the better the transient response). As far as output, I would design the best box for the room I have and make it as flat as I can. If I can't get the output with the power I need in the design I want, I look into adding another driver.

Too many people have brought brands into this fight (though the OP did ask for suggestions). If we are discussing how to get "SQ" output from a sub, who makes the speaker shouldn't matter.

I have extended two offers so far: one for Cruzer to try my Sony ES sub in MY box design, only for the cost of building the box and one for Xtreme to show how his HiFonics sub could sound good. I will extend a third offer, ANYBODY can pick ANY sub, post the T/S parameters and the manufacturer recommended sealed enclosure, and I will show how porting the same sub can increase the performance substantially (I'm talking lowering distortion, extending FR lower, and increasing output/matching output at reduced power).

Fire away.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I went by close to what the manufacturer recommended, and a sealed box is not recommended for that sub. Mine was 3 cubic feet tuned to 34hz with a slot port with corner bracing. It was impossible for me to fit a larger box than that in my trunk; it simply wouldn't have gone in.
> 
> http://www.maxxsonics.net/manuals/hifonics/pdfs/Olympus 07 Subwoofer Manual.pdf
> 
> I'm curious as to what you have to show me. This thing was so unbearably uncontrolled and inaccurate that after 1 year of using it I literally could not take it anymore.


About to go to lunch, did you have the 160oz or 180oz magnet? I'll work on it when I get back.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> I have extended two offers so far: one for Cruzer to try my Sony ES sub in MY box design, only for the cost of building the box and one for Xtreme to show how his HiFonics sub could sound good. I will extend a third offer, ANYBODY can pick ANY sub, post the T/S parameters and the manufacturer recommended sealed enclosure, and I will show how porting the same sub can increase the performance substantially (I'm talking lowering distortion, extending FR lower, and increasing output/matching output at reduced power).


Box does have a significant effect on quality, because it affects the frequency response which is the most important factor. An improper box can totally screw up the sound of the greatest speaker. You're correct there.

But it doesn't change the fact that speakers have inherent differences such as distortion and motor noise. Given two speakers, both installed correctly, but one having lower distortion, the lower distortion subwoofer will sound better. Or, rather, it will be more accurate. If you prefer that or not is up to you. OP said he wanted SQ/low distortion so that's what I am talking. I do not recommend Dayton to everyone and I am not going to be running Dayton myself. I have used them in my home theater. I sold the 15" Dayton I had for an Acoustic Elegance AV15x, which is the best subwoofer I have yet to own. By far.

Also, just so you know, not all subwoofers work in a ported box.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

pionkej said:


> Which is why I said I would look for low inductance (LE) first to help with midbass blending, and look for a good MMS/BL because those specs typically show a speaker with good control. I would model the speaker to have a QTC (Q of speaker and enclosure) between .45 and .7 (the lower the number the earlier the roll-off, but also the better the transient response). As far as output, I would design the best box for the room I have and make it as flat as I can. If I can't get the output with the power I need in the design I want, I look into adding another driver.
> 
> Too many people have brought brands into this fight (though the OP did ask for suggestions). If we are discussing how to get "SQ" output from a sub, who makes the speaker shouldn't matter.
> 
> ...


*searching for Funky Pup specs*


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> Argh. So much stupidity in here.
> 
> Moving mass is important RELATIVE TO MOTOR STRENGTH which is BL^2 / Re. But then you've got to take suspension into account. You cannot just pick one T/S parameter and say that a product is better because of it. Mms is one of many, many factors.
> 
> ...




Eric is well respected in the car audio industry, so if you are going to call him out as a lair, I would like to know your reason for this. After reading some of your posts, I'am not sure you have all of your facts inline.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> Box does have a significant effect on quality, because it affects the frequency response which is the most important factor. An improper box can totally screw up the sound of the greatest speaker. You're correct there..


That is the only point I was trying to make, box design and install will make the largest difference in any sub speakers selection.

[/QUOTE]But it doesn't change the fact that speakers have inherent differences such as distortion and motor noise. Given two speakers, both installed correctly, but one having lower distortion, the lower distortion subwoofer will sound better. Or, rather, it will be more accurate. If you prefer that or not is up to you. OP said he wanted SQ/low distortion so that's what I am talking. I do not recommend Dayton to everyone and I am not going to be running Dayton myself. I have used them in my home theater. I sold the 15" Dayton I had for an Acoustic Elegance AV15x, which is the best subwoofer I have yet to own. By far.[/QUOTE]

I also mostly agree with you here. If we change to "Given two speakers of the same size, both installed correctly and having the same desired output at the same power input, but one having lower distortion, the lower distortion subwoofer will sound better." You may consider that semantics, but it is critically important to note because let's say I want to hit 120db (without cabin gain). I can take an extremely low-distortion 8" sub, put it in a sealed box, and "crank it to 11" to hit what I want. Or I can put a moderate distortion 12" sub, put it in a sealed box, and "turn it up to 7" to hit what I want, and I'll end up with lower distortion. Or I could double the 8" drivers. All I'm saying is there are TONS of ways around distortion numbers which is what makes other factors more important IMHO. I also said early on that if you can get a better performing sub, that meets your needs, for a cost you are willing to pay (or save in some cases), than do it.



bassfromspace said:


> *searching for Funky Pup specs*


Touche.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

trojan fan said:


> Eric is well respected in the car audio industry, so if you are going to call him out as a lair, I would like to know your reason for this. After reading some of your posts, I'am not sure you have all of your facts inline.


Eric, in the end, is going to try to convince people to buy his product. Whether he is familiar with Dayton or not, he's not going to steer people away from his product. The only time a salesman isn't going to tell you his product is the de facto best is when he knows you won't believe it, e.g. if he were selling you a Pyramid subwoofer for $5.

Why don't you go to the Klippel section of this very site and see how the Dayton is better than the IDQ?


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## Ray21 (Oct 19, 2009)

Klippel's not gonna tell you if a subwoofer sounds "better" than another. That's personal preference... Not everyone likes the sound of low distortion drivers. This is an objective vs. subjective debate.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Ray21 said:


> Klippel's not gonna tell you if a subwoofer sounds "better" than another. That's personal preference... Not everyone likes the sound of low distortion drivers. This is an objective vs. subjective debate.


You're right. There is a subjective factor in sound. But there is also an objective factor. Would you call a speaker better than another just because you like it more? You probably would, and you might be inclined to claim that I would, but I would not. The fact that I like the way the Daytons sound is separate from the fact that the objective measurements are in favor of the Daytons.

Also, if you're going to try to sell me an IDQ based on its sound quality and low distortion, then by the same criteria, the Dayton is better.

You're free to like what you want to like, but the Dayton is a more accurate speaker, and I say that makes it a better speaker. Again, that doesn't mean it has to be everyone's favorite speaker.

I recommend products based on the situation and the Dayton is an appropriate choice given the subject of this thread.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

dragonrage said:


> Eric, in the end, is going to try to convince people to buy his product. Whether he is familiar with Dayton or not, he's not going to steer people away from his product. The only time a salesman isn't going to tell you his product is the de facto best is when he knows you won't believe it, e.g. if he were selling you a Pyramid subwoofer for $5.
> 
> Why don't you go to the Klippel section of this very site and see how the Dayton is better than the IDQ?



Sounds like what any manufacture would do, but that's not the point here, what was he being deceptive about.

Last I checked, my ears can't hear what is written in the Klippel section .

Your response was not compelling at all to say the least...LOL


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I don't know what to tell you guys, by reading all of this, arguing back and fourth its fun to see how people are inteligente and know their stuff. It comes down to this, everyone has different ears, everyone likes different manufactures of subs/amps/head units... and so on ex..... 

I really like IDMAX sub, the only reason why I went with the MAX series its because, i have JL 1000 powering the sub. I don't know how other companies sound. I had Kickers L7 12 before, JL 10W7, and this Image dynamix, out of all 3 subs, i like IDMAX out of all of them. I hear the tone of the bass - that I haven't heard before. Also the sub doesn't need lots of power to sound good.. thats just my opinion...
Also I'm not saying other brands are bad, or they sound bad, but for my taste of music ID is a killer!


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> People here who support Dayton do so because they benchmark very well, they're inexpensive, and their numbers look very good. People here who support Image Dynamics do so because they have heard them before and there are few subs out there that sound like them. Anyone in the Chicago area who thinks otherwise is welcome to meet up with me to hear what a pair of IDQs sound like.


You had me right up until here... So, you're saying that those here that prefer the Dayton have not even heard them and are basing their opinions strictly upon test results and spec sheet? Is it beyond comprehension that some may simply prefer the Dayton, even after hearing both, for one reason or another?

For the record, I like both subs. I think they're nearly interchangable when implemented correctly. Anyone reading this thread should purchase the one that makes the most sense to them based upon how well it fits their individual requirements... available space, available power, etc, etc.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Here is the example I'm talking about. This is using the HiFonics 15". You can see that in the box as designed, there is a peak in response and it has an F3 of 30hz (this is the point where output is down 3db). You can see that in my design, the box is huge (5cu/ft) but it has a flat response and the F3 is down to 23hz. It isn't practical, but it does perform better, and doesn't run out of XMAX or exceed port speed. 

Note that I don't know the dimensions of your slot port, it is possible that your tuning wasn't exact either (no accusing you of that) and that can have a HUGE affect on SQ based on port speed.

Box per Specs:










John's Design:










Note that MMS is a bit high for the BL being a bit low, so I could see cone control being a bit of an issue with this sub, but the box design change will still make a big difference.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The thing is, you'll be happy with it either way. The difference will come when you compare it to someone else's IDQ and wonder what it would have sounded like in your car, and that thought will haunt you for a long, long time.
> 
> *No it wont, because even if the idq does sound better, no way does the idq sound so much better that its worth twice the price of the dayton*
> 
> What do you mean what makes a sub sound better? Transparency and its ability to blend is a pretty big factor that you can't measure. This is one of the biggest reasons I got rid of the 15" Hifonics. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, there are many things that contribute to how a sub sounds that can't even be measured, so you really should not be making your only decision on what to buy based on numbers, charts, and graphs.


*im not asking about measurements... im talking about the design and the parts used. IF the IDQ is the BEST SQ SUB OUT THERE, HOW? WHY? There has to be a reason behind it being transparent and blending well. U cant just build a sub and its magically that good, u have to have a design, and good materials. Once u know those details, u would know what a sub needs to have in order to be good.

so lets just say hypothetically the reason the IDQ is so great is because its super light cone. so then what if there is a sub out there thats similar, yet has an even lighter cone! then what?

my point isnt to bash the IDQ, the point is to try and get a better understanding why a sub is transparent, why it has great transition speed, etc. *



pionkej said:


> If the above comment is directed toward my posts, please stop misquoting me. I never said it doesn't matter, just that WHAT you do with a sub is much more important.
> 
> *If u read my post again, u will see i never said any names. its not always about YOU!!!*
> 
> ...


*Why are u looking at specs? they are going to sound the same... dont use #s, specs, or graphs. go by looks ok, get it right*


im gonna comment on the following with my opinion, no idea if its true or not. hopefully someone can confirm or correct me. please do.
"
I have never heard the Dayton before but here are few things to consider and why.

The Dayton SPL is rated at 88dB at 2.83 volts at 1 meter, The IDQ12 V.2 rated in the same manner, with 2 watts or 2.83 volts relative to a 4 ohm load is a full 3.7 dB more efficient based upon nominal efficiency (88.7 No and 91.7 with 2.83 volts). That is the equivalent of doubling the amplifier power.

*sure the IDQ is more efficient, and winisd recognizes it. yet put them in the same box, same power, the output shows to be the exact same.*

Both have very similar bandwidth energy products HO 73.05 and IDQ 12 76.05 so they will have very similar response in a given enclosure alignment. That means the that the 3.7 dB of efficiency will prove a useful advantage against the HO.

*so he can go by #s, but i cant? dragonrage cant?*

The moving mass of the IDQ12 V.2 is 159 grams compared to the Dayton at 254 grams. This will be apparent when listening to material with quick transients and lots of detail. The lower mass is easier to control both stopping and starting so the lower mass will yield cleaner less distorted output.

*this may be true. but i wonder if the more powerful dayton motor compensates?*

Not sure how they rate their power handling but the IDQ12 350 watts is a continuous rating using EIA standards. Which is safe to double for program power or music power depending on who term you would like to use. The aluminum cone if implemented correctly and the aluminum basket will help the HO in the thermal department.

To play devil's advocate here the Dayton Ho is very reasonably priced, and has shorting rings implemented. Although the No of the IDQ12 would be even higher if had shorting rings improving its performance at the higher frequency ranges with lower inductance. 


Eric
Image Dynamics"

*pionkej even said, if similar performance on power and box size, he would go with the one that had the higher mms/bl and lower le. 

oddly enough!! ID doesnt post any of that, but i know, ID nut huggers wont question it! 

winisd calculates the BL, and the dayton has 12.6, while the IDQ 12v3 has 8.9*


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Can anyone answer this for me?

Why was the "klippel" invented? if its so useless why did they make it? Why does anyone use it? Why does anyone read the #s and graphs? etc. etc.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pionkej said:


> Here is the example I'm talking about. This is using the HiFonics 15". You can see that in the box as designed, there is a peak in response and it has an F3 of 30hz (this is the point where output is down 3db). You can see that in my design, the box is huge (5cu/ft) but it has a flat response and the F3 is down to 23hz. It isn't practical, but it does perform better, and doesn't run out of XMAX or exceed port speed.
> 
> Note that I don't know the dimensions of your slot port, it is possible that your tuning wasn't exact either (no accusing you of that) and that can have a HUGE affect on SQ based on port speed.
> 
> ...


thats great in a home maybe, but useless in a car without EQ, right?


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> *sure the IDQ is more efficient, and winisd recognizes it. yet put them in the same box, same power, the output shows to be the exact same.*


Not entirely true. Granted, these aren't the "same box", but they are the ideal enclosures for each...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

dayton hf 12 
idq 12v3
1 cubic foot sealed
400 watts
Identical...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> So lets all stop paying so much for our subs, lets all go buy boss subs and build the best box and spend all the money on sound deadening. there is a reason u dont see BOSS equipment winning SQ comps.
> 
> i also do not believe every sub sounds so much the same u wont hear it.(thats what u said, "probably not noticeable")


You're right, I said probably not noticeable...but I also explained why it probably wouldn't be noticeable. I also didn't chide anybody for wanting expensive subs and didn't recommend people going out and buying crap either. If you remember, I actually suggested JBL GTi subs. They are not cheap and they are not crap, even if they don't test the best. When you "called me out" about how they tested, I explained that I like them because you can run them sealed, ported, or IB, they hold their value well, and are virtually idiot proof thanks to their dual differential design. It is a great sub because you can try most any alignment with them. If you pick one you like, and you want to squeeze the last bit of performance out of your build, you could get a sub optimized for that box design and get most your investment back selling the JBL. It was a valid suggestion that I have again justified with the comments I made above.

Your attitude seems to be quite poor in that regard, I try and make helpful comments and you turn around and take it to the extreme. I preach that install and box design are key, you sweep it under the rug like it is a given...and it isn't. Tons of people, even members here, take for granted install and box design. I mention the gap between a "great" sub and an "average" sub may not be equal to the dollar difference when properly executed, you put Boss subs into my "suggestion". 

A couple more notes:

I would be willing to bet most people don't run Boss subs for two reasons: they have unreliable build quality making the risk/reward ratio pretty low, and, believe it or not, most people don't want to use gear that has a reputation for being junk. It is truly hard stigma to overcome.

With that being said, I bet I could take Boss brand subs and match the performance of anything out there. It may take me ten subs to keep the excursion low enough to have no distortion* to match a single quality 12", but it could be done. 

And anything, when done properly with a solid plan, can be achieved. So I'm NOT telling everybody to go out and buy junk because it doesn't matter, but if you DON'T have a plan for your install before buying quality gear, you might as well have bought junk because it WON'T matter.

*Before you go and say "you said distortion doesn't matter", I'm talking about mechanical noise from the speaker. The distortion you speak of is harmonics. Not the same thing.



Cruzer said:


> pionkej even said, if similar performance on power and box size, he would go with the one that had the higher mms/bl and lower le.
> 
> oddly enough!! ID doesnt post any of that, but i know, ID nut huggers wont question it!
> 
> winisd calculates the BL, and the dayton has 12.6, while the IDQ 12v3 has 8.9


I did say that, I'm also a big fan of ported enclosures and IB setups. Since there is no "air spring" to speak of compared to a sealed box in those configurations, I like a strong motor. It doesn't mean the ID is bad if it is designed that way. As far as I'm aware (i.e. I haven't looked at the specs), the IDQ is designed to perform well in a small box, an alignment that doesn't require a strong motor. I'm not saying this because I'm pro-ID, or that I'm against them, just that it MAY be designed to perform that way. It isn't really what I care for, so I wouldn't prefer it.



Cruzer said:


> thats great in a home maybe, but useless in a car without EQ, right?


No, I would say it is particularly useful in a car without EQ. You cannot EQ back in nulls from destructive interference, so let's not worry about that. Taking what I posted, "my box" will be approximately flat and will boost from flat to whatever curve is provided by your cabin gain. The "factory box" will have an even larger peak due to cabin gain, and will have seemingly worse low-end (because it is already rolling off earlier from the box design, there isn't much cabin gain down low, and the sub frequencies above it peak even higher due to cabin gain). 

Now, you CAN argue that it wouldn't matter either way if you DO have EQ, but I don't agree with that either. You can shape the "factory box" design to be flat with EQ and since you cut a peak, you will actually have more power available. The problem is, it is going to take a ton of power to boost the EQ up in the low end, and you could potentially push the sub past it's limits even if you do have the power on tap for the boost. Also, if you are doing this with a PEQ, you potentially burned precious bands correcting a problem you could have fixed by designing the box properly instead of using those bands to fix acoustic problems created by the car itself. If you have a GEQ, you may not be able to fix the problem at all.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pionkej said:


> You're right, I said probably not noticeable...but I also explained why it probably wouldn't be noticeable. I also didn't chide anybody for wanting expensive subs and didn't recommend people going out and buying crap either. If you remember, I actually suggested JBL GTi subs. They are not cheap and they are not crap, even if they don't test the best. When you "called me out" about how they tested, I explained that I like them because you can run them sealed, ported, or IB, they hold their value well, and are virtually idiot proof thanks to their dual differential design. It is a great sub because you can try most any alignment with them. If you pick one you like, and you want to squeeze the last bit of performance out of your build, you could get a sub optimized for that box design and get most your investment back selling the JBL. It was a valid suggestion that I have again justified with the comments I made above.
> 
> Your attitude seems to be quite poor in that regard, I try and make helpful comments and you turn around and take it to the extreme. I preach that install and box design are key, you sweep it under the rug like it is a given...and it isn't. Tons of people, even members here, take for granted install and box design. I mention the gap between a "great" sub and an "average" sub may not be equal to the dollar difference when properly executed, you put Boss subs into my "suggestion".
> 
> ...


i dont have an attitude. i think the last time i had an attitude was with a teacher in middle school, let alone a discussion on the internet lol...

install and box is a given... unless ur a noob. i mean i have tons to learn, but its not hard to use software to find the response u want and build the box according to those specs... if u want me to put it in a way for you to understand, or like, ill put it like this. i know how to build a quality box, and get the frequency response I want. i cannot speak for the forum, or every person in car audio, as im sure a lot dont know what there doing.

when i left for work today a dude asked me if he could put two jl 10w7s in a box built for different subs...

this thread is so old. i never asked for your opinion, and if i did, it was about the subs in the poll? not something u want to suggest. besides that, its not that i think the wgti is bad, its perfectly fine. do i think its the best choice money wise at $300+ no i dont. do i think its the best overall sub no i dont. do i think its the most accurate sub no i dont. but because u suggested it means i cant comment about how i feel about it?

u have to realize this is a forum, for people to discuss. that means opinions, and that means just because u give your opinion, doesnt mean everyone should just take it, and not say a word about it. i mean i hate to see what u have to say if i ask a question about your suggestion. probably say im threatening you, if just discussing it with you is having an attitude =/

speaking of a well rounded sub, if the IDQ has a low powered motor since its designed for sealed, does that mean its not going to be as good ported or IB?(not saying it will suck, asking will it not be as good as sealed)

guess what is, with its powerful motor? dayton HF. looks good sealed, ported, and npdang said it looks like a great candidate for IB.

a ported box tuned low to have a flat response is probably the best u can do for a ported box, but without eq it will not be flat and will not sound that great. it can sound ok, i mean thats what i currently have. and it sounds ok, but not as good as i want, which is exactly why im replacing the setup.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i wished someone like Lycan would respond to this and teach us all


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> speaking of a well rounded sub, if the IDQ has a low powered motor since its designed for sealed, does that mean its not going to be as good ported or IB?(not saying it will suck, asking will it not be as good as sealed)


I wouldn't say it's "designed for" sealed, In fact, it's EBP suggests it's perfectly suitable for a variety of enclosures. That's the IDQ's selling point, in my opinion. It's a Jack of all Trades, type of sub with a good reputation, solid build quality and versatility. While working well in sealed enclosures, many, many men have run the IDQ 15's IB. It's one of the most popular IB subs of all time. Countless others, including myself, house them in ported enclosures. Sounds damn good, too, if you ask me.

Speaking of versatility, let's not forget the fact that it's offered in either dual 2 or dual 4 ohm versions. Wiring possibilities to any variety of amplifier are nearly endless. Perhaps this doesn't matter to you, but it does make a difference to the masses, fwiw.

Is it the be all, end all of all subs? Hell no... BUT, it's a very solid choice with the ability to please nearly anoyone, if implemented correctly.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> By that measure, we could put my dog in a 1 cubic foot sealed box and it would make the same amount of noise. Haven't you read a single thing yet? Nobody ever said to build the exact same box and try different subs.


I dont understand, 1 cubic foot looks great with winisd. image dynamics recommends 1 cubic foot. winisd recommends 1 cubic foot for the dayton. why would it not be fair to compare them in a 1 cubic foot box?

you people flat out kill me with the stupid box crap. i have like 10 boxes sitting in my garage. ive experienced boxes and the build quality. its not 99% based on box.

i guess image dynamics can build the sub, but were not supposed to use the box size they recommend? where is the logic?



XtremeRevolution said:


> I don't know how or why, but as with many other things, hypothetically speaking, would the fact that I don't know how or why make it any less true? No, it wouldn't. Its not THE absolute best SQ sub out there, but definitely runs up there with the best of them and it has earned that reputation for the past 10 years. There probably is a reason, but whether or not you can measure it is a different story. Why do you insist on making sense of everything?


your joking right? I wonder why i want to know what makes a sub sound great. probably because i can then take that knowledge and find a better sounding sub? just because ur not an engineer and dont build subs doesnt mean u shouldnt thrive for knowledge


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> I wouldn't say it's "designed for" sealed, In fact, it's EBP suggests it's perfectly suitable for a variety of enclosures. That's the IDQ's selling point, in my opinion. It's a Jack of all Trades, type of sub with a good reputation, solid build quality and versatility. While working well in sealed enclosures, many, many men have run the IDQ 15's IB. It's one of the most popular IB subs of all time. Countless others, including myself, house them in ported enclosures. Sounds damn good, too, if you ask me.
> 
> Speaking of versatility, let's not forget the fact that it's offered in either dual 2 or dual 4 ohm versions. Wiring possibilities to any variety of amplifier are nearly endless. Perhaps this doesn't matter to you, but it does make a difference to the masses, fwiw.
> 
> Is it the be all, end all of all subs? Hell no... BUT, it's a very solid choice with the ability to please nearly anoyone, if implemented correctly.


i didnt say it was designed for sealed someone else did i was just going along with it.

most speakers come in dual 2 or dual 4. they arent special


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> most speakers come in dual 2 or dual 4. they arent special


Does the Dayton Reference Seires, which you hold in such regard, offer such a choice? Guess the fact that they don't makes them special. 

EDIT: Oh, wait... They just launched a 12" HO in a DVC 4. A step in the right direction, I guess, but far from all inclusive. What if I wanted an 8"? Or a 10? Or a 15? Or dual 2 ohm coils in either 8, 10, 12 or 15?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> Does the Dayton Reference Seires, which you hold in such regard, offer such a choice? Guess the fact that they don't makes them special.


single 4 ohm and dual 4 ohm allows u to wire to 4 and 2 ohm what else do u need? my amp would rape an idq with 1200 watts so i would need two idqs, so i could just grab two dual 4 ohm daytons?

unless im missing it the idqs offering dual 2 and dual 4 isnt special


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> unless im missing it the idqs offering dual 2 and dual 4 isnt special


While perhaps not special, having the option of dual 2 or 4 coils in 10", 12" and 15" IS pretty damn convenent. It pretty much guarantees they have an IDQ to fit any situation. I think it's a little more rare than you think. None of the brands you've mentioned offer such choices.

Look, I'm not knocking your decision to buy something other than an IDQ. Obviously, you don't want one. That's great. Different strokes for different folks. Just don't discredit it because you think you've found a better solution for YOUR needs. Other's needs may vary.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

well it is MY thread, so its sort of about MY needs am i right?

its not that i dont want an IDQ, its that i dont think its worth the money. not to mention they dont make a 15" which is what i want. hmm seems the IDQ fails to fit any situation HUH HUH?

$270 for 15" ID 350 watts according to ID website
$250 for AE AV 15" rated for 1000 watts (btw this brand does dual 2 and dual 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

u tell me which is the logical choice


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I have a great deal of respect for pionkej for the way he has handled this thread and what he has contributed, but I don't believe that you can put two subs that model similarly in the same car with properly built boxes and have them sound the same. I just don't personally believe it.


There is a difference between sounding the same and being able to *hardly* tell the difference. I never said they sound the same, in fact I said they can and will sound different. The fact remains that subs cover the frequency spectrum the human ear is least sensitive to. The fact remains that unless you are pushing a sub past it's physical limits (of if it is just mechanically loud), the things that usually make it sound "bad" are frequency response problems from a poor box design, rattles and resonance that localize it, or poor transition to the midbass. Now, the last problem CAN be a function of the sub design, but that is why I look for a low LE.



XtremeRevolution said:


> So if you think the Dayton subs run up there with the legendary reputation the IDQ's have, then by all means buy one. You know my stance on this topic and I don't think there's anything else for me to say.


These types of brand attacks get us nowhere in learning. You haven't heard or used the Dayton subs, Cruzer hasn't used them yet or the ID's. Neither of you have the right say to which is better IMHO.



Cruzer said:


> install and box is a given... unless ur a noob. *There are plenty of noobs then because install and box design isn't a given to everybody. This thread may have started because of your question, but in my effort to teach, I went beyond and maybe explained some things you are already "beyond"...it doesn't mean it isn't worth sharing. How did you learn install and box design is a given?* i mean i have tons to learn, but its not hard to use software to find the response u want and build the box according to those specs... if u want me to put it in a way for you to understand, or like, ill put it like this. i know how to build a quality box, and get the frequency response I want. i cannot speak for the forum, or every person in car audio, as im sure a lot dont know what there doing.*If that is the case, I'm glad. See my response above as to why I wrote what I did.*
> 
> when i left for work today a dude asked me if he could put two jl 10w7s in a box built for different subs...*...and what did you tell him?*
> 
> ...





Cruzer said:


> i wished someone like Lycan would respond to this and teach us all


I can't produce Lycan, but I did ask bikinpunk to take a look at this thread and comment. I'm not sure if he will or not, but since he has more experience with different gear than I do and will be in charge of the Klippel, I figured it was a good request. Who knows, he may even come in an tell me I'm giving bad advice...and in that case I will apologize.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pionkej, is install and box design a given for your installs?
im going to assume the answer is a yes.
so why am i different? am i not smart enough to know how to install or how to build a box to give the sound i want? just drop it already.

if u want to go make a thread teaching beginners how to do that, go for it! im not going to stop you, i think its a great idea...

i didnt tell the dude at work anything because he would just try and tell me it would work. ya technically it might work but it will sound horrible. u get the subs and design the box for the subs, not the other way around.

if thats how u feel why do u post back? im just trying to discuss and learn. which is why i said i wish lycan would respond. dude is intelligent and isnt biased to brands and would set us all straight on at least one thing im sure.

hopefully erin will respond. i look forward to it


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> well it is MY thread, so its sort of about MY needs am i right?
> 
> its not that i dont want an IDQ, its that i dont think its worth the money. not to mention they dont make a 15" which is what i want. hmm seems the IDQ fails to fit any situation HUH HUH?
> 
> ...


I could play the same games... I'm looking for a set of nice 8" subs. Does AE have me covered? Nope. Does that mean I think they make a lousy product... Just because they cannot fulfill my needs? Nope. Not even close. They make great stuff, just not what I'm looking for.

Just because something is the logical choice for YOU, doesn't mean it's the only logical choice. Other's situations and logic may vary. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> I could play the same games... I'm looking for a set of nice 8" subs. Does AE have me covered? Nope. Does that mean I think they make a lousy product... Just because they cannot fulfill my needs? Nope. Not even close. They make great stuff, just not what I'm looking for.
> 
> Just because something is the logical choice for YOU, doesn't mean it's the only logical choice. Other's situations and logic may vary. That's all I'm trying to say.


ya but im not going around saying AE can fit any situation/install

unlike u saying "It pretty much guarantees they have an IDQ to fit any situation." and then being wrong.

and im surprised AE doesnt make an 8" sub, but guess not many people run 8" subs in the house or studios either so it doesnt really fit their customers

and i never said the IDQ is a lousy product.

keep twisting and making up stuff i enjoy this


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

BEAVER said:


> nice 8" sub


Doesn't exist.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> ya but im not going around saying AE can fit any situation/install
> 
> *unlike u saying "It pretty much guarantees they have an IDQ to fit any situation." and then being wrong.*
> 
> ...


LMFAO! How am I wrong? Are you implying that ID doesn't make a sub to fit your application? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't fit your application.

Show me where I've made anything up. I'll gladly apologize. I'm not here to bash anything or make things up. I'm trying to offer a different perspective, not so much for your benifit (because you seem to already have all the answers, anyway), but for those who may later read this and wrongfully determine, by your rhetoric, that the IDQ is not worthy of their consideration. I'm not claiming it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am stating that it's a solid piece of equipment that does a lot of things well, for a lot of people. You just aren't one of them. To each his own.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> LMFAO! How am I wrong? Are you implying that ID doesn't make a sub to fit your application? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't fit your application.
> 
> Show me where I've made anything up. I'll gladly apologize. I'm not here to bash anything or make things up. I'm trying to offer a different perspective, not so much for your benifit (because you seem to already have all the answers, anyway), but for those who may later read this and wrongfully determine, by your rhetoric, that the IDQ is not worthy of their consideration. I'm not claiming it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am stating that it's a solid piece of equipment that does a lot of things well, for a lot of people. You just aren't one of them. To each his own.


you said "It pretty much guarantees they have an IDQ to fit any situation."

but there is no IDQ 15" available to buy new. so therefore ur wrong?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

oh and because u tell me ill make enemies will make me not say something?

thx for clearing up the idq ratings. woofersetc lists the 12v3 as 750 rms so i was confused but figured it was 500 since thats what ID site said.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i never said the IDQ sucked and wasnt good. i know u guys and everyone else on the forum dont make up that is a good sub. i just think the price isnt justified


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Now that we have dropped to arguments about power handling...I hope EVERYBODY realizes that if the power handling is excursion limited you cannot know what the exact power handling is until you model the box you built for it. If it is thermally limited, well, don't exceed the suggested amount even if the sub/box can handle more.

Also, as sealed box size decreases, power handling increases. In fact, as box size decreases beyond "ideal", more power is needed to reach the same output.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> you said "It pretty much guarantees they have an IDQ to fit any situation."
> 
> but there is no IDQ 15" available to buy new. so therefore ur wrong?


I wouldn't say that I'm wrong. If a 15 will FIT, obviously a 12 will, as well. So, they do make a sub to FIT your application. You just dont want it. Thats fine. As I've been saying all along, to each his own. I hope you find what you're looking for.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> I wouldn't say that I'm wrong. If a 15 will FIT, obviously a 12 will, as well. So, they do make a sub to FIT your application. You just dont want it. Thats fine. As I've been saying all along, to each his own. I hope you find what you're looking for.


the 12" wont give me the output i want... so no it doesnt fit my application. try again


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Thanks for clarifying that.
> 
> Honestly, if I had a lot of trunk space, I'd jump on the first IDQ15V2 that came up. Have you seen the sensitivity ratings on that thing? I'm tempted to buy one if one ever does sell.


ya its not like thats the first time i said any image dynamic product dont suck. i actually recommend the component set often...


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> the 12" wont give me the output i want... so no it doesnt fit my application. try again


Try again? Ok. I'll try again, one more time, to say the same thing I've been saying since the beginning... Peoples wants and needs vary. Obviously, you've put a lot of thought into this and the IDQ isn't right for YOU. Thats fine. But, it doesn't mean that it isn't right for the next guy. 

Since you seem to know so well what you want, I wouldn't even be responding to this thread if it weren't for all of the tongue in cheek remarks about the IDQ... "ID is like JL, baller status, buy those.", etc, etc etc... While these types of remarks may be funny to you, they may potentially steer people away from a product that would perfectly suit their needs. 

Bottom line, in my opinion, the IDQ is a solid choice for a lot of people. You shouldn't discredit it or make snide remarks about it just because it doesn't "fit" your application or expectations. Thats just my opinion. I'm sure you'll find it wrong again. Thats ok. We don't have to agree. You're free to like what you like. I'm just asking that you don't look down upon others for having an opinion that differs with yours... and that you don't steer people away from a product just because it's not right for your application.

With that said, I'm out. This is your thread and I'll leave it be.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> "ID is like JL, baller status, buy those.", etc, etc etc... While these types of remarks may be funny to you, they may potentially steer people away from a product that would perfectly suit their needs.


Ya it was a joke, and funny to me. if someone reads my 1 comment that says that and they decide not to buy an IDQ vs the hundreds of other reviews saying they are a great sub, then they deserve not to have the IDQ. if that cant even read the forum and understand that everyone praises the IDQ...

u guys are wayyyy too worried about people reading this. this is why people are supposed to make a thread about their setup, their needs, and drivers that can fit their needs...

im limited on space, so i cant run two 10s or two 12s. i have room for a single 15, and there is no idq 15 readily available to purchase.

since i got into car audio i had two rockford fosgate p2 12s off 400 watts. thats plenty loud for me. so i want a 15 that can do the same output in the room i have available. a 15 off my 510 watts will do that according to winisd. dayton might not be the best, but its cheap at $160 and i cant personally think of anything around that price that would be worth paying more.

the ID15v3 is $110 more and i doubt it would be a significant difference to be worthy of paying that. *for all those reading this im not bashing the ID sub k????*


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Nobody here is bashing the IDQ, including myself. Cruzer and I just don't think it's worth the money over Dayton, but we don't think it bad at all. If the pricing were a bit closer or if the IDQ had a notable edge in displacement or power handling or something then it would give me more of a reason to recommend it. As for pricing, though, Dayton will very tough to match since they're made in China and at a much higher volume, I believe.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Good reading:
Woofer measurements

Lambda motor vs. XBL^2 motor vs. any other motor - diyAudio

And, from diya:


rythmikaudio said:


> The absolute value of inducatance is not a good indicator, just as the absolute BL value is no meaning without comparing it to Rdc of voice coil (so-called BL^2/Re value). All these values are scalable with respect to Rdc. Actually, the importance of inductance is determined by a lot more factors.
> 
> In subwoofer application, the transition point from a back-EMF dominating frequency band to a inductance-dominating band indicates where the motor structure begin to lose firm control of cone motion. Maybe a better word is equilibrium point and for most woofers it occurs between 60hz to 120hz. At frequencies below this equilibrium point, back-EMF dominates the impedance value, and above this point, back EMF is so low, that is becomes more like current drive. Coincidentally, that minimal impedance frequency point is way higher with smaller woofers, or woofers with smaller xmax. All these come into play when some people would prefer to use multiple small woofer to get the SPL up vs one large woofer. There is no doubt that a woofer with a higher equilibrium point would sound better controlled.
> 
> ...


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I spoke with Bikin this morning and he just doesn't have time to jump in this thread and start clearing the air. I can comfortably speak for him and say that he thinks there have been several good points made in this thread, though it is also littered with bad information and brand bias as well. 

So I think it is best to summarize:

To the people who are defending ID subs (and the like) becuase you love their performance, it is good that you are happy. Nobody has the right to tell you that you're wrong for enjoying your sub selection. However, if you have no experience with the other subs being talked about, you have no right to make a comparison as to which is better.

To the people who are bashing ID subs (and the like) because they MAY not measure as well on paper to the subs you like, but you have no real world experience with them, you also have no right to make a comparison as to which is better either.

Reducing excursion will reduce distortion (either by going with a larger driver or multiple drivers). People can argue the rest of the opinion based points I made, but that holds true. If you have the room, increasing displacement by size or quantity will reduce distortion by reducing the work each speaker has to do to reach desired output.

Cruzer: 

This is your thread requesting input for which driver to run. It seems you have settled on purchasing the Dayton. I would suggest getting it. It is a good value and is well reviewed (both positively and negatively). At this point the best thing you can do is just purchase a speaker and see how you like it. It will give you a baseline reference. The Dayton has tons of data on it, so no matter what opinion you draw in the end, you have a good, well reviewed, starting point. It may be the last sub you ever buy, it may not, but again, it gives you a starting point with a minimal financial risk...and you can't beat that.

EDIT: I spoke to soon. Thanks for jumping in a posting that Bikin.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

More great information:
Human Hearing - Phase Distortion Audibility Part 2 — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Human Hearing - Distortion Audibility Part 3 — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Take note that the above links discuss two types of distortion:

Linear
Non-Linear
This is key to this thread as I'm seeing the term "distortion" used and I'm seeing evidence that, while some may be aware there are two different types, they are not calling them as such and adding to the confusion of this thread.




Why am I posting these links? So people will understand what distortion is and the various types of distortion in addition to the different ways people have tried to correlate distortion affects on your hearing and how driver parameters can give you an inkling of the various distortion levels in the context of the distortion type.


In a nutshell, we can quantify the mechanics but the subjective correlation between hearing and distortion is not so simple. When people ask me "Dude, why are you bothering testing drivers? Everyone's hearing is different", well, my answer is somewhere rooted in all of my links.
My goal is to work toward quantifying the subjective and objective and to help us (hopefully, after much effort and testing will be done) determine in advance what we want out of a driver. I want to bridge the gap between the absolute and the relative. That will ultimately help these kind of threads move in a forward direction rather than getting bogged down in the muck of brand bashing and brand praising.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The problem with blindly suggesting is that:

We don't know what the user asking about the products wants (especially in this case, as he admits he doesn't know yet either... which is the reason why I and John above are recommending he go with something that he can correlate with his own thoughts upon using it and seeing others' reviews)
The install will affect the listener's feelings toward the final choice. And "install" isn't relegated solely to the enclosure he uses. Install consists of (obviously) enclosure, but also location, firing direction, *his car* (aka: the environment used... which will have its own affect that _is _measurable with even a small signal sweep), and even how he treats rattles, etc. 
The final tune will greatly affect the final sound. It, IMO, is much more 'detrimental' to a sound system than the 10% difference in Le. 

As Linkwitz mentioned above, the parameters change from one environment/enclosure to another and therefore the item of conversation - non linear distortion - will be affected. 


As subjective as "SQ" is, we can quantify it at least within our own (the individuals') parameters. However, the only way to do this is to use both your experience with the data you trust. By 'trust', I simply mean one that you can use confidently to compare against another driver. NOT comparing mfg specs to someone's rudimentary, pole vent blocked, driver hanging upside down on a rope, measurements. It doesn't have to be perfect, though, as long as the measurement method is at least repeatable against other drivers... therefore giving the reader a way to rationalize how one driver might compare to another that the tester has measured. 
Again, to hammer it home:
Experimentation
Measurement

Until you can confidently correlate the two, which is pretty much impossible when you have zero experience with any driver, you just have to make an educated guess. To me, the best guess is one that seems to get good reviews subjectively and objectively. While not necessary for all the reviews to be glowing, make sure there are plenty of reviews to help you correlate what you hear with what others hear. IOW, don't buy a driver based on one good review and expect that to put you on the path toward which drivers you should buy later. Such is the case for the Dayton. This is the same logic I gave to Cruzer when suggesting the Dayton mid/bass drivers over another brand. While the other brand has excellent subjective views, it doesn't have any objective reviews/measurements. IMO, it's just a bit 'smarter', if you will, to buy a product that you are able to listen to, form an opinion, then read about to see how your opnion meshes with others and how your opinion goes with the data provided. FROM THERE, you can make an even more educated decision as to what to try next. Albeit, you may not like what you try the next time, at least your rationale is sound (no pun intended ) and you can feel at least somewhat confident in the purchase decision.
If you can't tell, I'm all about data, but I'm also all about what you hear. I'll be the first to say that while I do believe SQ is objective, what a person deems as SQ is not. Pick up just about any audio sound book and you'll discover that the whole "flat line" response curve you see mentioned is actually based on a battery of tests and experimentation by the authors/referenced work. 

Of course, there's always my method of buying everything you can while selling off the other stuff to fund the new stuff. That's how I've managed to try so many drivers and it's what helped me form an opinion on the drivers I ended up with. 

Your quote mentioned the desire to have a well sealed/damped/non-resonant environment over having the most non-inductive sub. I'd agree. I'd take it a step further and say that the final tune is probably just as important as stopping those darn rattles. "Transparent" subwoofers are mostly a product of proper integration in to a system... a good bit of time probably went in to tuning that setup. Of course, I have had instances where a simple drop in replacement midbass set made all the difference in the world, but oddly enough, the parameters were similar to the ones they replaced. 
On that note, I can't tell you how many WEEKS worth of time I spent tracking down a single resonance issue in my kicks. Resonance/rattles are prime issues for "picking out" a subwoofer in a system... iow, it's what makes you say "ope... the sub's back there" as opposed to "where's the sub?!". 

Additionally, though it may sound counterintuitive to what I've posted above, there's nothing like getting out and listening to cars in your area when you can. That also gives you ideas on installing, tuning, and even an inkling of how a certain driver's characteristics may sound. And ...here comes the shameless plug ... that's why I host GTG's like the one I'm having next month. It allows people to get out of the internet world, get some real world listening in, talk with fellow audio hobbyists and get a real idea of what it took someone to get the sound they did. 
Oh, and wouldn't you know I just happen to have a link.... 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...03-north-alabama-gtg-4-april-16th-2011-a.html



My final parting thought for this post:
Save your money from those expensive subwoofer purchases and use the money up front to purchase a woofer tester and an RTA setup if you already own a laptop. The Woofer Tester 3 from parts express runs only $100 and a calibrated mic + xlr/USB adapter cable would run about $130 brand new ($100 or so used as evidenced on this forum the past month). These two tools are INVALUABLE to anyone who really wants to both expand their knowledge about car audio and also improve their sound system. No, an RTA is not a replacement for your ears, but it's a damn fine tool and is in many cases _*better*_ than your ears. Heck, with 5 seconds and a woofer tester, I can tell you why you have resonance in your low end, even though the impedance spike may not be the issue (hint: those little blips in the impedance curves are nasty buggers ).

I'd be happy to help ANYONE here learn how to use these items to better their sound system. I just do not have the time to type up a tutorial, though there are actually really good ones on the net... it's just hard to find them all. 
I've given my phone number out to many people. Some have taken me up on the offer and others haven't. But, the offer is out there... all you gotta do is a send a PM...


Whew! Yappidy, yap, yap. I just hope people don't glance that over, because what I've just said is from about 3 years experience wasting my time. I'm trying to keep you guys from doing the same! 

- Erin


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

One quick note: This is better than the Dayton WT3: woofertester.com


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ I actually just bought one recently. I agree. I just find that the wt3 is a bit 'easier' to use for a noobie, but I will agree with you there, that for the extra $50, the S&L wt2 is the smarter buy for the long term.

good call.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The above is the sole reason why I've been "promoting" the ID brand in this thread. Because there have been people shooting it down on the premise of the Klippel tests on this forum. Had some people not come in claiming the specific Dayton subs in question were better than the modern IDQ subs, most of these arguments would be void. I said it then and I'm saying it again now with some of the new links that have been posted; there's more to how a sub sounds than just the paper specs, and the best thing you can do is listen to the options for yourself. *It may just be that a great number of people love the IDQ V2 and IDQ V3 subs because they "sound good" compared to other subs with regard to what the human ear and brain can perceive.*


He may have been "wrong" for claiming something based off test data alone, but slinging mud back without experience with both products doesn't make you "right" either. Pulling data to vindicate yourself instead of help isn't the right approach either IMHO. 

For example, the last comment in bold is a *jab* based off some information you have read. Just because they "sound good" compared to other subs doesn't mean they have crossed the "threshold" of what the human ear and brain can perceive. It could be that it is the best sounding sub people have used to date, but there are better out there. It could be that while many manufacturers design enclosures a bit too small (which creates a FR peak) to protect the driver (smaller box equals "safe zone" for gain-happy customers), ID designed theirs "right" which gives a better,flatter FR. It could be that they play nice in the lower midbass range and thefore blend easier. It could be that you are right in your statement, but there are too many other "could be's" to allow you to make such a bold comment. Just be happy that you like it, say it the best sub you have heard/used to date, and right now it leaves you with no design to change it out...that is a fair comment to make based on your experience with that driver. 



bikinpunk said:


> The problem with blindly suggesting is that:
> 
> We don't know what the user asking about the products wants (especially in this case, as he admits he doesn't know yet either... which is the reason why I and John above are recommending he go with something that he can correlate with his own thoughts upon using it and seeing others' reviews)
> The install will affect the listener's feelings toward the final choice. And "install" isn't relegated solely to the enclosure he uses. Install consists of (obviously) enclosure, but also location, firing direction, *his car* (aka: the environment used... which will have its own affect that _is _measurable with even a small signal sweep)
> ...


I really do appreciate you jumping in and adding your input Erin. I have highlighted some area's in red for my personal commentary.

1.) I didn't put the words as well as you did, but that is why I originally suggested the JBL GTi subs (via PM before I knew he felt so adamantly about the Dayton or AE AV subs) since they are great all-around subs with both subjective and objective data.

2.) Which is why I preached about box, install, and midbass integration. Admittedly, I was a bit vague, but by install I did mean the car and car treatments to help the environment.

3.) Another example of where I was vague. Thank you for bringing the distinction to the thread. 

4.) We both may take different approaches to this (i.e. I haven't gone through as much gear as you  ). I do like to research more and buy less, but in the end, we both end up with something, listen to it, note what we do and don't like, and see if we can find data that correlates to those preferences so we can make purchases in the future that are better suited to our preference. The only way to do this is with both sides of the equation: experimentation AND measurement.

5.) This is again why I suggested the GTi subs initially. When asked about the Dayton and AE subs, I said I couldn't give comment on them without experience, but they both seem well reviewed and would be a good choice. The only reason I held on to the GTi suggestion in this thread was to defend my choice after I was "called out" for suggesting a product that seemed to be "inferior" on paper.

6.) See #4  In the end, that approach gave you tons of experience.

7.) This was my big point on why sub selection doesn't matter that much. It is solely my opinion...and I still stand by it. I have had subs that didn't sound great initially, and, before I had EQ, just flipping the polarity or changing the crossover slope/frequency could change the sub's performance from "bad" to "good". The change in "quality" directly correlated with how well the sub transitioned to the midbass frequencies. Having a good EQ can make that even easier.

8.) I have done the same, and you have heard first hand the major issue I dealt with. I actually got rid of a midrange because I thought it had resonance issues. While the swap got me a better driver (and the problem did lessen), it didn't fix it. It turned out to be a problem with the kick panel (enclosure) itself. I modified the factory kicks. They clipped into the cars metal frame with metal clips. When I increased the output loud enough, it actually began to resonate at certain frequencies causing major issues. 

9.) I agree 100%. The example I spoke of in #7 of "blending" my sub, it was pure trial and error the first couple of times. With the equipment I have now, I can see what is going on, see what happens when I change something, and then learn what fixed the problem. An RTA certainly isn't a replacement for one's ears, but it is a powerful tool in teaching the brain to recognize what is going on when the ears find a problem.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

see ive read a lot about the whole distortion and sq route when designing subs. the links bikinpunk linked, ive read(not the human hearing ones, reading those after i post this)

ive read how the lambda motor was designed. ive read how the xbl2 was designed. each design is different, but the objective is the same. the fact that these designs, along with JL's, and the LMT of TC sounds, they all shoot for the same thing.

Are they all out for marketing? well it works, their stuff sells.

logically each design makes sense, and their objective/goal logically makes sense to me.

its kind of hard to continually buy subs and sell them trying them all. what i can say from experience though, is that the rockfords have higher LE, and arent really known to be SQ subs compared to the polks i have now. they have a lower LE, and are more towards a SQ sub and i can easily tell the difference. i would always pick the polks over the rockfords. now im trying to take it further, and get subs that have even better designs to have better LE, and be a better SQ based driver(i do think the IDQ would be an upgrade to the polks). the dayton have proven low LE, proven low distortion, proven nice bl curve, proven powerful motor, all out there for the world to see and read. if i grab it and dont like it, then i can take a step back and rethink of what makes a sub provide what i want it to have. perhaps the really light cone of the IDQ is what im looking for and even with the powerful motor the dayton couldnt provide.



bikinpunk said:


> Good reading:
> Woofer measurements


when i read this, this is what i get from it. say your trying to hit 100 db and your satisfied with the spl level.

you could go for two subs(if u have the room and power) and not push them to hard and u could have low distortion 100db.

or you could get a single 12 or 15" sub that is designed to have low distortion through out its xmax and its frequency response and be able to push it however u want to achieve the 100 db, be it almost maxing the subs xmax, and you will have 100 db of low distortion.

so if the above is true, u take an average distortion 12" sub, push the recommended power to it, and then take a low distortion 12" sub, push the same power(this is assuming they are both rated the same) and the average distortion sub with its design not allowing it to keep low distortion through out its xmax, it would have more distortion over the low distortion.

now u also read that some people like a little distortion, it gives it a warm sound. and thats fine! if thats what u want! but the lower distortion should be better to have transparent and blend up front imo. subs that are designed to have low distortion typically have lower induction as well, which from what little i have read(i need to read more up on this) lower inductance helps transient response. (someone correct me there if im wrong, i very well could be, need to read more on that)



pionkej said:


> 5.) This is again why I suggested the GTi subs initially. When asked about the Dayton and AE subs, I said I couldn't give comment on them without experience, but they both seem well reviewed and would be a good choice. The only reason I held on to the GTi suggestion in this thread was to defend my choice after I was "called out" for suggesting a product that seemed to be "inferior" on paper


i wasnt trying to "call you out" on it. imho its hard to read things that make logical sense and then ignore that because others havent read that, or dont agree.

for example, if im looking to buy a fast car i do research. if i read car 1 is lighter, and how a more powerful engine and car 2 is heavier, with a less powerful engine, well logic tells me car 1 will be faster.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Again, I'll suggest the dayton for all the reasons mentioned above.

Now you see exactly why I say being a newcomer to this hobby is troubling. It's a crapshoot... you get opinions for every damn side and it's so overwhelming. 

This is in no way meant to sound condescending, so don't take it that way:
I see you doing the same thing I used to do: hype up a driver, get close to buying it, then get talked out of it, ... rinse, wash, repeat. It's so easy to get caught up specs and totally lose sight of what you wanted to do to begin with. Don't let yourself fall into the confusion. You'll drive yourself batshit crazy.

At this point, your best bet is to just pick a driver. You said you want the AE but don't wanna cough up the dough. How about waiting a couple months (or however long it'll take) to get the rest of the scratch together and just buy that?
Have you looked at their classifieds over there (do they have such a section)? Might be worth a shot to pick up a used one. Or send John an email and see if he has a used one around he'd be willing to let go for a bit cheaper.

If that is out, which I have a feeling you will discount the suggestion and rule it out, then just go with the dayton. Or you can buy the IDQ. Or you can buy a JL w3. Or you can buy a Rockford. Or you can buy a pteradactyl. Or you can buy a sharpie.

See what I'm saying?... You've made a wise choice in the Dayton. If you like it, and you don't want to save for the AE (which you've mentioned a few times you won't buy due to cost and have only given cost as a reason), then get the Dayton. I don't expect you to buy every sub. I do, however, expect that you'll likely wind up trying different setups. I don't know many people who are "one and done" with speakers. You're likely to fall in to that niche. If not, great. If so, you'll have a good solid ground to work with. We can't tell you what you'll like. We can only suggest what we like and have experience with and we can only provide you with data to make an educated guess. 


oh, btw, I think you should buy the dayton. 


Did I mention that the dayton would be a good starting point? 

Oh, I spoke with me earlier and I suggested you try the dayton.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i do want the AE AV, but is it worth the extra $?

without hearing either, all i have is price, T/S, and the klippel tests to go by.

both are low distortion, low inductance, etc. etc. so why would the AE be worth $100 more?

if u can explain why its worth it, and it makes sense logically, ill do it. i want to help john get back into business again as well. he is a good guy


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Cruzer said:


> when i read this, this is what i get from it. say your trying to hit 100 db and your satisfied with the spl level.
> 
> you could go for two subs(if u have the room and power) and not push them to hard and u could have low distortion 100db.
> 
> ...


reading one of bikinpunks links, it confirms this

"Non-linear distortion tends to be quite level-dependent. As such, non-linear distortion levels - for a given input signal level - can be reduced by employing multiple drivers (such as found Wilson Audio's Alexandria or Puppy or the RBH Signature T-2 System ) though you'll then have to take into design consideration lobing, extra cost, etc."


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Again, I'll suggest the dayton for all the reasons mentioned above.
> 
> Now you see exactly why I say being a newcomer to this hobby is troubling. It's a crapshoot... you get opinions for every damn side and it's so overwhelming.
> 
> ...


I was typing a response and this "gem" popped up in my e-mail update. I agree 100% with Bikin, you need to just pick up the Dayton sub. It is currently in your price range and you feel it will be an improvement over the Polk subs you're replacing. Since you feel that you know what parameters help give the sound you're after (and the polks were better than the fosgates and the dayton is better than the polks), now is the perfect opportunity to see if what you're learning translates to what you want to get out of a speaker.

If it turns out you don't like it, you can always flip it and try something else. I certainly don't think it will sound worse than the Polks (and there is a very good chance it will be better), so you could easily "live with it" while you save for something else. And again, it gives you more experience to go with your research...and those two together is really the best way to learn.

I also want to say that I don't think Bikin would ever suggest to anyone that buying up speakers is the right way to do things. It may be the way he has a tendancy to do things, but that is his method. There are different ways to get from Point A to Point B in this game, but in the end, you have to make a purchase and actually own a speaker to see if you're even headed in the right direction.

P.S. Get the Dayton.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> now u also read that some people like a little distortion, it gives it a warm sound. and thats fine! if thats what u want! but the lower distortion should be better to have transparent and blend up front imo. subs that are designed to have low distortion typically have lower induction as well, which from what little i have read(i need to read more up on this) lower inductance helps transient response. (someone correct me there if im wrong, i very well could be, need to read more on that)


Not yet proven. I've searched high and low for data correlating this. I myself have fallen victim to this notion. I just have yet to find anything to back it up and it's been something I've been seeking with a vengeance. Just dare question it on a forum and see how many *who think they know the answer* pop up and the thread ultimately turns in to a Poo Slinging competition. It's happened to me twice already. Of course, I find that's the nature of people; when they don't know the answer or can't back it up, they resort to name calling and diversion tactics. You'll find it a lot in any thread where someone's "belief" (whether it be objective data or subjective opinion) is called in to question and they can't back it up. Happens a whooooole lot. Not just in the car audio world. 

Of course, if you've found data correlating distortion values with driver characteristics, please share them. Seriously. I've not found anything other than pissed off people who don't know the answer and hate the challenge. 



Now, let's get back to your dilemma...



Cruzer said:


> i do want the AE AV, but is it worth the extra $?
> 
> without hearing either, all i have is price, T/S, and the klippel tests to go by.
> 
> ...


The PM you sent me earlier made me think you wanted an AE and led me to believe you knew more about it than what you said above. That's the only reason I brought it up here. 


Cruzer said:


> i know an AE AV would sound good, but its more expensive



*hopefully you don't have an issue with me posting that publicly. I think you've said similar in this thread.*

Again, I don't care what you buy. I just want to help you from driving yourself crazy, which it seems like you're doing... as did I and many others have done, I'm sure. 
You've reached the pinnacle of your research, it seems. Now it's time to make a leap. Quite honestly, I've not compared specs from the AE to the Dayton, but if cost is keeping you from it, then there's really no reason for me to look in to that issue for you... or, would you be willing to spend more for it? Ugggghhhh, see what I just did!? Crap, dude, you pulled me in to your circle! lol. 

As far as the dayton, *You've got low(ish) inductance, you've got 15", and you've got cheap. If you've got the power/enclosure to get it to the levels you want, you've got your sub. *
Give it a shot. There's very little risk here. 


FWIW, the reason I chose my ae ib15's was simple:
They were cheap
They were light
They were 15"

When I bought them, inductance and 'transient response' were not of concern. Hell, I wasn't even worried about Q. *shrugs*

That's all I needed to know. They got right down to it and did the job for me. In fact, they're the only drivers I've not changed in a 2 year span. For me, that says a lot. 


That's all I can really commit to your particular question. So, with that said, I'll stop recommending drivers altogether. Not that the dayton is the end all, but because of all the other reasons I gave above. 

I am game for more of this other talk, though. 

- Erin

PS: You've got my #. We should really chat on the phone sometime. If I don't answer, leave a message and I'll call you back when I can. Would really save me the time of having to type this stuff up and would be much more easy for me to get my point across without having to watch what I say so that it doesn't seem like I'm being a douche (and it's hard to do on the internet as words aren't met with emotion).

Hope that you've gotten something out of my posts because I'm doing my best to help and keep you from falling in to the same holes I did.


----------



## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

thanks for the info

and ya i can call u sometime its just hard with the schedules, im usually asleep or working when ur best available. that way we dont offend people like ive done despite not saying "the idq sucks or is bad"

the ae is probably better designed, lower distortion, lower inductance, but i would just be sending it the same power as the dayton 15. maybe we can figure out if its worth the money before i buy something this weekend


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> the ae is probably better designed, lower distortion, lower inductance, but i would just be sending it the same power as the dayton 15. maybe we can figure out if its worth the money before i buy something this weekend


I know I said I'd stay away, but I want you to know that there are no hard feelings on my end. I sincerely hope you're happy with whatever route you choose to take.

With that being said, back to business... You've narrowed it down to the AE or the Dayton, correct? Have you modeled both of them? In Unibox or WinISD Alpha? You may want to look at the excursion capabilites of each driver and compare how much of it they're using at a given output. The lower one wins, in my opinion. If they're close, I'd get the Dayton. We've established that it's well put together and squeaky clean. It's made your shortlist and it's cheap. Win, win, win, win. 

I'd say to just get the Dayton now, but something tells me that you really want the AE. Better to do all of the research now and know you're making the right choice than to always wonder what if, ya know?

Goodluck with whatver you do, seriously.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm not going to quote Erin, but I'll build on his post from above. All we are trying to do at this point (he and I have talked) is get you to buy something. Owning a driver and trying it out is the only way to get real world experience. You seem to have it narrowed down to two subs, both are good choices from what I've read in my opinion. It seems you aren't quite ready to pull the trigger with the AE based on price. Since you did your research but don't have any hands on experience with a driver like you want, why not get the cheaper one (Dayton). That way IF it isn't what you wanted, less money is invested. If it IS what you wanted, you got a great sub and you can save to try the AE out down the road. If they both model well in the box you build for the Dayton (I have no idea if it will) you can actually do an A/B comparison before selling one of them off. 

I also gave you my number via PM, and I offer the same invitation he did. Sometimes a 5 min. phone call can clear what takes an hour typing back and forth. If your schedule is odd hours, shoot me a PM and let me know what they are and we can work something out.

Lastly, here is what I know about transient response, it is primarily a function of QTC (Q of speaker PLUS enclosure). LE does not have a significant effect on transient response. And while I can't bring Lycan to this thread, I can take you to a great thread about the topic in which Lycan is VERY involved (WARNING: Lycan actually states that a white-paper written by Adire, aka XBL^2, about the source of transient response is incorrect, so YOU will have to choose which to believe): http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...a/87371-fast-bass-slow-bass-myth-vs-fact.html

And a quote I pulled from the first page of the thread:



lycan said:


> guyz, do a search ... we've talked about transient response & "speed" a bunch of times.
> 
> The problem with that Adire paper is that it erroneously equates the _rise time_ of the transient response with the _complete time-domain transient response_. Coil inductance ONLY impacts rise time, in much the same way that a low-pass crossover impacts rise time. Don't low-pass your drivers, or you'll slow them down!
> 
> ...


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## Ray21 (Oct 19, 2009)

Wow. I wanna pet your box. 

(That line will land you in a sexual harassment suit, btw) lol


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

if you came to my gtg with that box, I'd take it out of the car, take it inside, and take a nap on it. 

after I tossed it in the dryer to get it warm first, of course.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

BEAVER said:


> I know I said I'd stay away, but I want you to know that there are no hard feelings on my end. I sincerely hope you're happy with whatever route you choose to take.
> 
> With that being said, back to business... You've narrowed it down to the AE or the Dayton, correct? Have you modeled both of them? In Unibox or WinISD Alpha? You may want to look at the excursion capabilites of each driver and compare how much of it they're using at a given output. The lower one wins, in my opinion. If they're close, I'd get the Dayton. We've established that it's well put together and squeaky clean. It's made your shortlist and it's cheap. Win, win, win, win.
> 
> ...


no hard feelings from me either.

pionkej - its not like i have the money sitting in hand and im just going on this long debate with you guys for the fun of it. im currently moving so money is kind of short, paying for uhaul, storage, gas, etc. but friday a guy from my work has said he will buy my subs and if he does i wanted to the same day buy something.

What looks like it models best in the attachment?

i got a question for anyone. on youtube videos of the IDQ's, the cone moves really weird. why is that? its almost like waving, check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaN3zzGkqY


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

weird tho cuz the camera is nice, its 720 HD. i remember back when i first seen the video and was first getting into internet brands i was like wow that thing must sound sick. no other subs do that movement, haha


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Cruzer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> Can anyone answer this for me?
> 
> Why was the "klippel" invented? if its so useless why did they make it? Why does anyone use it? Why does anyone read the #s and graphs? etc. etc.


*It is not useless, it serves a purpose. It just should not pre-filter what someone hears when listening to a driver. Kippel provides a great deal of objective data that many people enjoy learning about the driver and using when designing their enclosures etc.*


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*Oh, and shag boxes FTW.*


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Aaron Clinton said:


> *It is not useless, it serves a purpose. It just should not pre-filter what someone hears when listening to a driver. Kippel provides a great deal of objective data that many people enjoy learning about the driver and using when designing their enclosures etc.*


just like winisd, they arent the end of all use this to choose ur sub. but just like winisd can give me a very good idea of which of 2 subs will be louder, i would rather go by that then just guessing, or by someone's word that has used 1 of the subs.

imo(granted im a noob) the klippel shows which should be the more accurate driver(not that it will sound better) and imo with music u want the most accurate drivers u can get. and again i rather go by something designed to help out like the klippel over some guy's word that has ran 1 of the subs im comparing.

hope thats fair?


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I personally think you put way too much weight on how 'accurate' a sub is and you really need to get out and hear some more subs.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk


ya because there is this place up the road, they have every sub u can buy and they let u demo each one. too bad u dont have a place like that huh?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ april 16th. decatur, al.
I'd guess about 10 different subs will be there.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

ya idk if i can go subless that long, tho its probably the smartest option


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

you think the decision is tough now???... wait until you hear about 4 more subs that sound great and you then toss those in to the mix. 
the install and tune is more important than the sub. When the sub actually starts making all the difference in the world, congratulations, because you've already got a killer setup. 

like we all keep saying, go with the dayton if you're impatient.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> pionkej - its not like i have the money sitting in hand and im just going on this long debate with you guys for the fun of it. im currently moving so money is kind of short, paying for uhaul, storage, gas, etc. but friday a guy from my work has said he will buy my subs and if he does i wanted to the same day buy something.


Up until this point, I wasn't aware that was the situation. I thought you DID have the money and were just having a hard time making a decision (and didn't want to spend more money than you had too). If that is the case, I certainly stand by getting the Dayton since you like it, is well reviewed, and it is the cheapest.



Cruzer said:


> What looks like it models best in the attachment?


That attachment is tiny so I can't read much. I can see that the Dayton is the yellow line, AE is the pink. Are they both in the same box (as in, do you already have a box built and you're seeing which models better in said box)? If so, they look like a wash (no more than 2db difference) from the plotted response. I CAN'T read the QTC numbers at the bottom. If transient response matters to you and you read the thread I linked, I would highly suggest the one with the lower QTC.



Cruzer said:


> just like winisd, they arent the end of all use this to choose ur sub. but just like winisd can give me a very good idea of which of 2 subs will be louder, i would rather go by that then just guessing, or by someone's word that has used 1 of the subs.
> 
> imo(granted im a noob) the klippel shows which should be the more accurate driver(not that it will sound better) and imo with music u want the most accurate drivers u can get. and again i rather go by something designed to help out like the klippel over some guy's word that has ran 1 of the subs im comparing.
> 
> hope thats fair?


You seem to already be settled on a good sub to use as a starting point/reference point. The only comment I want to make here is that while you think "with music u want the most accurate drivers u can get," you really don't have the practical, hands-on experience yet to know what difference in measurement makes an audible difference (and if you cannot hear a difference in the accuracy, it really isn't any more "accurate" to you as a listener).



XtremeRevolution said:


> I personally think you put way too much weight on how 'accurate' a sub is and you really need to get out and hear some more subs.


I personally don't think you have that much more experience than he does to make that kind of statement.



bikinpunk said:


> you think the decision is tough now???... wait until you hear about 4 more subs that sound great and you then toss those in to the mix.
> the install and tune is more important than the sub. When the sub actually starts making all the difference in the world, congratulations, because you've already got a killer setup.
> 
> like we all keep saying, go with the dayton if you're impatient.


:thumbsup: Now where do I remember that comment being made (multiple times) before???


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## Mark the Bold (May 28, 2010)

Well I'm gonna dip my toe into the crimson murky waters here and give a strong recommendation for the Dayton sub. Although I only have the 10" sub. I'm a modest man with modest bass needs. 

I can credibly compare it to the following sub's I have owned over the years. I am not qualified to compare them to the IDQ or AE as I have not heard them (although AE does their best to NOT respond to emails of potential customers):

MB Quart Premium 10"
ED 13v2
JL 13w3v3
Rockford Shallow Punch 12's (whatever model number it is)

The Dayton 10" HO I have is hands down the best subwoofer I have installed / owned. I totally and shamelessly stood on Chad's shoulders and used his box design as a good start point and went with that. Particularly in a small cabin like my access cab Tacoma. Running it off the sub channel on a Arc Audio ks900.6 so I have about 400w @ 4ohms for it. Basically I was looking for a ported sub that could work in a small box and the Dayton sure delivered.

What really makes me gooey over Dayton products is the absolutely stellar support you get from the speaker builders over at [email protected] Not sales people but dedicated speaker entusiasts. These guys KNOW what they are talking about and use scientific reasoning to back it up. They have steered me on the correct path many a time and they know that Dayton HF sub pretty well. Hoffman's law is all you need to know.

From my very prelim glancings at the forums the only caveat with the Dayton HF is that you can't overpower it. I know thats true of all subs, but people have mentioned the "tin man" effect when absolutely saturating it with watts.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pionkej said:


> That attachment is tiny so I can't read much. I can see that the Dayton is the yellow line, AE is the pink. Are they both in the same box (as in, do you already have a box built and you're seeing which models better in said box)? If so, they look like a wash (no more than 2db difference) from the plotted response. I CAN'T read the QTC numbers at the bottom. If transient response matters to you and you read the thread I linked, I would highly suggest the one with the lower QTC.


ya idk why attachments have to be so small... but u can use ctrl mousewheel up and it will zoom in.

the ae has the lower qts because the dayton wants 5.8 cubes to have .7 qts
does that mean i dont want the dayton because i cant give it 6 cubic foot box so transient response is gonna be bad?
i cant remember but i thought someone said qts doesnt really matter because cabin gain affects it(different thread). i think it might have been the "what .qts do u aim for" thread with poll talking about sealed boxes and the .qts to aim for when designing/building the box


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Mark the Bold said:


> Hoffman's law is all you need to know.


which should add a 4th constraint: price. 

While it's not true all the time, it seems that it does hold true a good bit.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Klippel (how do you spell it?) was invented to measure certain parameters and make sense of certain aspects. It was invented to make a paper spec comparison between subs so that people might be able to get some resemblance of an understanding of why certain subs sound the way they do. It is by no means conclusive. The people needed a way to measure something. Just because it was invented, doesn't mean it measures everything.


The Klippel was invented as a R&D tool. Yes, it qualifies as test equipment, but it saves A LOT of trial and error for developers.

So, NO, it was not invented to make a paper spec. The spec existed before the Klippel, the Klippel just measures it. 

Yes, the Klippel can measure EVERYTHING that is pertinent to what we hear. Plain and simple. That's why it's the industry standard. We have vast research on what the human ear can hear, and we have vast knowledge of transducer design. Just because _YOU_ don't understand the measurements, doesn't mean they're not valid, or appropriate. In fact, the Klippel can test well beyond the capabilities of the human ear. When it comes to modern transducer testing, the human ear is the weak link.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> How "fast" a sub is


this one is incredibly easy:
depends on the frequency

100hz is 100 cycles per second. 
20hz is 20 cycles per second.

100hz is 'faster'.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> ya idk why attachments have to be so small... but u can use ctrl mousewheel up and it will zoom in.
> 
> the ae has the lower qts because the dayton wants 5.8 cubes to have .7 qts
> does that mean i dont want the dayton because i cant give it 6 cubic foot box so transient response is gonna be bad?
> i cant remember but i thought someone said qts doesnt really matter because cabin gain affects it(different thread). i think it might have been the "what .qts do u aim for" thread with poll talking about sealed boxes and the .qts to aim for when designing/building the box


If you read the link I posted above (very first post on Page 12), Lycan indicates that QTC is directly responsible for transient response. I personally like my speakers to model in the .45-.7 range. I had a midbass that I felt sounded "sloppy" (mentioned in the thread I linked) compared to my subs and midrange. I measured it in the door (enclosure) with my WT3 and it had a QTC in the .9's. That is under-damped which does not give good cone control. In saying all of that, I will change my opinion on subs and say IF the box you are modeling is already built, I would personally save the money for the AE (or something that models similar).

NOTE: Not everybody agrees with what Lycan said. Dan Wiggens, who is responsible for XBL^2 I believe, disagrees in the thread. What Lycan presented DIRECTLY related to what I was experiencing, so I am on that side of the fence. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> Does that make the statement any less true?


Maybe. I appreciate that Cruzer is trying to do research, especially now that I know he DOESN'T currently have funds for a new sub. Why not keep digging and seeing which sub is best until you have the money in hand to buy one (especially if he best opportunity to heard good speakers in good installs is a month away at Erin's GTG).

Also, if you are over him asking questions (he isn't attacking your ID subs anymore), you could just ignore this thread.



MiniVanMan said:


> Yes, the Klippel can measure EVERYTHING that is pertinent to what we hear. Plain and simple. That's why it's the industry standard. We have vast research on what the human ear can hear, and we have vast knowledge of transducer design. Just because _YOU_ don't understand the measurements, doesn't mean they're not valid, or appropriate. In fact, the Klippel can test well beyond the capabilities of the human ear. When it comes to modern transducer testing, the human ear is the weak link.


Great first post in this thread MVM...thanks. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> You just opened up a can of worms buddy.
> 
> Explain how Klippel measures the following:
> 
> ...


You just opened a can of worms. He said "everything that is pertinant to what we hear" not "to how it sounds." This is exactly why we (Erin and I) also posted that a speaker can measure good but sound bad. 

1.) Look at the Ultimo. Go model it. Everything I have seen about it states that is has a very controlled FR past 100hz. This makes for a very good transition to the midbass frequencies. If a sub behind you doesn't rattle anything and BLENDS right in with the front speakers...what doesn't make it transparent. I'm glad that for a $750+ price tag it does that easily, but many less expensive subs can do it when properly implemented.

2.) "Speed" of a sub is directly related to transient response. If you read the link I posted above, transient response appears to be a function of QTC. QTC is the Q of the speaker AND the box it was designed for. Sealed boxes are easy to build and easy to get right. I haven't modeled your ID subs (I don't have anything to prove, but you can model it yourself), but I bet they fall somewhere between .5-.75. That is the "sweet spot" between optimum transient response and low-end extension. It is what gives you "fast" or "tight" bass. 

3.) Cone material can change the sound of a speaker, but I promise if you change the cone on any sub to a different material, the T/S parameters and Klippel results will change too. So the changes to the speakers ARE still measureable, but the change in tonality may not be. 

Do you have any other buzz words you want to throw out that can't be rationally explained away?



bikinpunk said:


> this one is incredibly easy:
> depends on the frequency
> 
> 100hz is 100 cycles per second.
> ...


That answer works too.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pionkej said:


> If you read the link I posted above (very first post on Page 12), Lycan indicates that QTC is directly responsible for transient response. I personally like my speakers to model in the .45-.7 range. I had a midbass that I felt sounded "sloppy" (mentioned in the thread I linked) compared to my subs and midrange. I measured it in the door (enclosure) with my WT3 and it had a QTC in the .9's. That is under-damped which does not give good cone control. In saying all of that, I will change my opinion on subs and say IF the box you are modeling is already built, I would personally save the money for the AE (or something that models similar).
> 
> NOTE: Not everybody agrees with what Lycan said. Dan Wiggens, who is responsible for XBL^2 I believe, disagrees in the thread. What Lycan presented DIRECTLY related to what I was experiencing, so I am on that side of the fence.


lycan is a smart dude and i have never read something he wrote and disagreed(might not be saying much considering im a noob) but also IF dan wiggens did design the xbl^2 motor, he knows a crap ton too.

the box i have built can either be 2.6 cubic foot sealed, or 2.35 sealed, either way the AE has a better qts in it. i could easily build a new box, but im not building a 5.8 cubic foot box lol. sadly the dayton hf 12 also likes 3 cubic foot(i could do that, but seems LARGE considering most 12s ported dont use 3 cubes)

ill wait till the GTG i guess to hear subs so i can make the best judgement and not spend any cash. though if i got the dayton hf 12, tried it in 3 cubes sealed and didnt like it, i could easily just move the box to the house and use it for HT sub(of course if i plain dont like it, then i would sell it).

for the record, i dont see how anyone "attacked" IDQs. no one said "IDQ subs suck!" "IDQ subs are terrible". we just simply said that we didnt feel they are better than the dayton, especially when u compare price.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You just opened up a can of worms buddy.
> 
> Explain how Klippel measures the following:
> 
> Transparency.


First, tell me what "transparency" is, and I'll tell you how to measure it.

Please, give me a nice scientific definition for your silver eared, audiophile term.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

MiniVanMan said:


> First, tell me what "transparency" is, and I'll tell you how to measure it.
> 
> Please, give me a nice scientific definition for your silver eared, audiophile term.


It's sound that you can't see the sound of.

Duhhhhhhhh!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Why is experience needed in order to make a credible statement?


Because you also said he was worried too much about accuracy. I don't care if you suggest he go look at subs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you have enough experience with different subs/installs/setups to make the former part of your statement. 

For the record, Erin and I suggested he "just buy a sub already" (similar to just listen to subs) before he shared with us he didn't have the money yet to get anything. Since he doesn't have money currently and his best hope for hearing multiple setups is in a month, I actually think it is fine he is still asking questions.



XtremeRevolution said:


> Were all the subs that were Klippel tested on this forum fully broken in?


Is there a purpose to this question or are you just trying to start a fight? I'm seriously asking.



XtremeRevolution said:


> Despite what you may think, I read and absorb every post made in this thread, but somehow the fact that I skeptically question them makes me an idiot?


I never said you were an idiot, I'm sorry if you took my comment wrong. 



Cruzer said:


> lycan is a smart dude and i have never read something he wrote and disagreed(might not be saying much considering im a noob) but also IF dan wiggens did design the xbl^2 motor, he knows a crap ton too.
> 
> the box i have built can either be 2.6 cubic foot sealed, or 2.35 sealed, either way the AE has a better qts in it. i could easily build a new box, but im not building a 5.8 cubic foot box lol. sadly the dayton hf 12 also likes 3 cubic foot(i could do that, but seems LARGE considering most 12s ported dont use 3 cubes)


Like I said, I had a midbass problem that I didn't undstand until I joined in that thread. I changed to a midbass that modeled a better QTC (and confirmed it via WT3 with the speaker in the door) and the problem went away. Because of that, I chose Lycan's "side" and I believe it. I just try and get my setup with a lower Q and I've been happy. So if *I* were chosing between the two in the box you have available, I would get the AE sub.



MiniVanMan said:


> First, tell me what "transparency" is, and I'll tell you how to measure it.
> 
> Please, give me a nice scientific definition for your silver eared, audiophile term.
> 
> ...


I loved this!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> I changed to a midbass that modeled a better QTC *(and confirmed it via WT3 with the speaker in the door)*


freakin' A-MEN, brother!

That's what we all need to be doing instead of expecting the modeled Q to be the final result. 

There is a difference in the enclosure Qtc and the in-car+enclosure Qtc. ESPECIALLY with IB subs where your Qts is supposed to be the Qtc but in fact, is not. 



Oh, shameless plug #2: 
I'm selling my woofer tester 3. Won't link it, but it's in the F/S section.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i read the thread that u linked and while lots of it is truly over my head i would have to agree with lycan. also if u look at something like winisd, it suggests the .7 qts

however i wish i could get John from AE to chime in. he says lowering inductance lowers distortion, but never mentions transient response, or anything so not sure his take on it. but he is so busy ill probably never get his opinion

what if my qts is like .735? its still .7, but its over .707
personally i doubt it matters much, i mean how can .707 just be that magical lol


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> what if my qts is like .735? its still .7, but its over .707
> personally i doubt it matters much, i mean how can .707 just be that magical lol


Here is how I understand it:

<.5 = over-damped (great transient response, poor low-end extension)
.5 = critically damped (great transient response w/o excessively compromising low-end extenstion)
.707 = "ideal" alignment (good transient response w/ "ideal" low-end extension)
>.707 = under-damped (poor transient response w/ great low-end extension)

The reason so many people like .707 is because it gives the user the "most" low-end extension out of their drivers...at the cost of transient response. This is good for people who want a 3" speaker to pay 200hz. I prefer the better transient response of a lower QTC. Since I'm running a 3-way up front, I don't need each speaker to play as low, so I will trade some of that extension for better transient response. I prefer the sound of and aim for drivers with a QTC of around .45-.6. 

If you go back to the winISD graph you posted, see how the Dayton rolls off later than the AE? That is the low-end extension you get from the higher Q. 

I don't think you will see that much difference between .707 and .735. Another option you, potentially, have is get the dayton and run it aperiodic. I don't have much experience with this, but I know that by changing the resistance of the "port" you can change the size of the "box", therefore changing the Q.

Again, Dan Wiggens did not agree with what anything I typed above (because I gained the knowledge from Lycan), so I don't have any proof in this case other than "what Lycan told me" and my personal experience.



XtremeRevolution said:


> Typing on my phone is slow so ill make this short. Yes, I was serious about the subs broken in question.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Awesome using Tapatalk


I know you're typing on your phone. Tapatalk reminds me every time you post that you own an HTC Awesom.

WHY do you want to know if the subs were broken in?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

john, you're on the right track.

I don't have time to add my thoughts on it right now (dance with baby time soon!) but I'll leave it with this:










I'm going to give you the very short reply, as my memory of spring mass damper systems is hazy (I always hated kinematics... I much more enjoy fluids, thus the aerospace eng degree rather than mechanical engineering )...

Zeta = damping ratio (that squiggly line you see next to the equal sign in the above plots).
In a spring-mass-damper system, a damping ratio of 0.707 is essentially a compromise between over and underdamped (you can find definitions on wiki). You can see this value in the above graph (where zeta > 1 is overdamped and zeta < 1 is underdamped).

Q is a function of zeta (damping ratio). Q = 1/(2*zeta). If zeta = 0.707, then 1/(2*.707) = 0.707, so nominal damped Q = 0.707.

Now, if you google 'butterworth' and q=0.7, or something to that effect, you should find more info on why sealed box alignments also shoot for this 'Q'.


Hopefully that's at least somewhat accurate, as it's been a long time. A mech engineer will have to jump in to hash out the details or correct me.


Edit: I can't spell.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Erin, 

This is what I was missing from not taking engineering classes. 

In looking at the chart it appears to be the opposite of what I have read about dampening as it relates to speakers. The higher the Z, the more controlled the line appears to be. The lower the Z, the less control, or "looser", it appears. I would equate "loose" with "sloppy" and "slow" when it comes to speaker performance.

Out of curiosity, do you still prefer a QTC (measured in car) lower than .707? Also, you did a test on your subs one time to show how in car measurements can change right (seats up, seats down, cabin doors open, trunk open, etc...).

I found a few more tidbits I've copied below, their links are below that.

And one last note, if you spelling is bad, use Mozilla Firefox, it has spell check. I have IE on my work computer, so if I'm spelling things wrong left and right, you know where I'm posting from. 



> Qtc is the total Q of the speaker in an enclosure including all system resistances. A Qtc of .707 is the most common and generally produces the flattest frequency response with approximately a 6dB/octave rolloff. Higher values of Qtc will give a peak in the output with a sharper rolloff. A lower Qtc will start to roll off earlier and will roll off at a slower rate. If you don't know what Qtc you need, start with a Qtc of .707.


Speaker Box Calculations



> Here you go. This is lifted off Acoustic Visions glossary page.
> 
> Q - the magnification of resonance factor of any resonant device or circuit. A driver with a high Q is more resonant than one with a low Q.
> 
> ...


What does QTC mean? - Home Theater Forum Community


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

John,
I've found that for midbass, I prefer a low Q. My scans are about 0.15 or 0.20 in their enclosure with an fs of something like 20hz. ... which blends well in to this...

You know those measurements you do with the WT3? Remember the impedance spike? Q is taken at that point (which is where Fs is). The steeper that spike, the higher the Q (and the more resistance under this band, just like the impedance value implies). The lower the Q, the less resistance. Pretty much the same way a parametric EQ works; the higher the Q, the steeper it is, the less bandwidth it has, and the more power is 'lost' at that frequency. The shallower the Q, the more bandwidth it covers, but the less power lost over that bandwidth. Make sense? 

Typically, small boxes have a high Q, which isn't exactly great as it often manifests as resonance as well. That's exactly why you'll notice people going AP; to tune out the impedance spike to a more acceptable Q, where the final Q is closer to 0.3 and a bit more 'flat'... well, actually quite a bit more flat. They can achieve a better impedance curve (and Q) while still having a small box, albeit at a loss of efficiency.

When you get here for the GTG I'll show you what I'm talking about. Of course, that is if you don't already know. 



Edit:
Actually, while I'm at it, when you guys are modeling predicted FR of your sub/enclosure, look at the impedance as well. I'd like to see these plots posted in addition to FR. IMO, the impedance curve is just as telling as the FR and in some cases even more useful.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> *I know for a FACT *the Dayton ND105's I'm building floorstanding speakers right now for model differently after *1 minute* of playing and differently after 5 hours of playing.


Now, while I'm not quite the anti-break-in guy, as I've seen my own data and others' which has proven as such, I'd like to know how you know "for a FACT" that the parameters change after one minute and what changed and how much whatever it was that changed, changed. Info, info, info, please. 

there are a few reasons here why they could shift.
I'm curious to know your methods. 

Additionally, while we've seen that driver's parameters do change, the real debate is this: do they change enough to make an audible difference or do you simply adjust over time yourself to the driver qualities? Note: AFAIK, no one has proven the last question either way. If you have test/reports/etc regarding this, please share. I'd truly love to see it.

I'd like this to stay on topic, but if we really want to discuss this particular subject further, I'll be happy to merge it to the "do drivers need break-in" thread that is already quite lengthy. Just lmk.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Ur gonna merge this thread with another based on 1 subject? What about the other 20 subjects already in this thread lol


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

no, dude. the posts regarding break in can go in the other thread. 

i got mad powers, yo.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> Ur gonna merge this thread with another based on 1 subject? What about the other 20 subjects already in this thread lol


He is talking about merging these specific break-in posts into another thread discussing that specific topic.



XtremeRevolution said:


> To learn? I know for a FACT the Dayton ND105's I'm building floorstanding speakers right now for model differently after 1 minute of playing and differently after 5 hours of playing.
> 
> It has already been proven that many subs that are re-coned need a break-in period in order to break-in the suspension that is otherwise extremely stiff. I don't remember where the video is, but two nights ago I watched a guy re-cone a sub on an Fi sub I believe and he demonstrated a very, very large difference in suspension stiffness between a used sub and one that was freshly re-coned.


Like Erin, I'm not an anti-break-in guy either. I just asked why you were asking because I wanted to hear some sort of validated response (which you gave now). I have seen many threads go sideways when a speaker is tested and people said, "but you didn't break it in". For all I knew, since you and MVM were "arguing" about the Klippel, you could have looked up posts, saw that, and tried to bring it to the fight with no knowledge of the actual topic.

Please know that I'm not saying I didn't think you knew what you were talking about, I just wanted to make sure there was logic behind the question. It is tough to tell when somebody types a single sentence.

I do have a question for you though. How do you determine what amount of speaker break-in time is "correct" when testing on the Klippel? If you ask the manufacturer, it is a slippery slope because they are going to tell you what they think will give them the best results, and we are supposed to be doing testing to validate/verify/disprove how a speaker performs regardless of what the manufacturer claims.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> I do have a question for you though. How do you determine what amount of speaker break-in time is "correct" when testing on the Klippel? If you ask the manufacturer, it is a slippery slope because they are going to tell you what they think will give them the best results, and we are supposed to be doing testing to validate/verify/disprove how a speaker performs regardless of what the manufacturer claims.


I'll await his reply before I add my $.02. But, I've got a notion as to how I plan to avoid this whole "you didn't break it in debacle".


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> John,
> I've found that for midbass, I prefer a low Q. My scans are about 0.15 or 0.20 in their enclosure with an fs of something like 20hz. ... which blends well in to this...
> 
> You know those measurements you do with the WT3? Remember the impedance spike? Q is taken at that point (which is where Fs is). The steeper that spike, the higher the Q (and the more resistance under this band, just like the impedance value implies). The lower the Q, the less resistance. Pretty much the same way a parametric EQ works; the higher the Q, the steeper it is, the less bandwidth it has, and the more power is 'lost' at that frequency. The shallower the Q, the more bandwidth it covers, but the less power lost over that bandwidth. Make sense?
> ...


Yeah, I remember us talking about it before. I can't do much about my subs or midbass (they are in my doors) so trying to get it right by modeling helps, but I can do a bit with the midrange by changing the amount of stuffing. It is certainly good info to put out there though.

To help me with my midbass selection, I took the WT3 measurements I got for the old Morel 9" I had in there that I didn't like. Used the calculated T/S parameters in Unibox and increased the "leaky enclosure" volume until the QTC matched with what I got from the WT3 measurements. I then used that box volume to model any speakers I was looking at getting. I know it changes a bit once in the car, but it certainly helped me avoid going through tons of drivers.

Out of curiosity, why only the low QTC for the midbass? Is it because the excursion on a midrange is usually low enough that there isn't much to worry about in the way of cone travel, and therefore transient response is not much a concern no matter the Q? I have found that I like to keep the Q of my drivers close to each other. It may be psychoacoustics, but I feel it helps with the transition from one speaker to the next.

I also like to keep my impedance spike as low as I can and as far away from my intended passband as I can. Especially since there isn't much I can do to change it with a speaker going into a door, like my midbass.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I would imagine it depends on the sub how long of a time you need to break in. As I mentioned previously with the ND105's, people have recorded higher SPL numbers and lower Fs values after some break in periods. I don't think the mileage will be the same with every sub. I think you should test repeatedly after periods of time, and your final test results should come only after the deviations from test to test have stabilized and you stop seeing a difference. This is the only thing that will be remotely relevant to someone who's using this data to make educated decisions or analysis. It will be of absolutely no use to anyone to know how a sub tests right out of the box if that's going to change after a week. I imagine with the Fi video I just showed, the Klippel tests on a brand new driver will be different from that on one that's been used a year. I believe based in the given scenarios:
> 
> Scenario 1: Out of the box vs 1 week of use
> Scenario 2: 1 week of use vs 1 year of use
> ...


Agreed.

I actually just sent John a PM saying essentially the same. Test until the driver parameters become repeatable. Of course, for this purpose, I'd only be concerned with Qts and Fs, since both are a function of compliance (which is the inverse of the spring factor). One does have to be careful so that he measures under the same conditions. IE: Best to leave the driver on a baffle and not touch it. Even tightening a screw a bit more than you did when it was initially measured will yield different results.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

pionkej said:


> To help me with my midbass selection, I took the WT3 measurements I got for the old Morel 9" I had in there that I didn't like. Used the calculated T/S parameters in Unibox and increased the "leaky enclosure" volume until the QTC matched with what I got from the WT3 measurements. I then used that box volume to model any speakers I was looking at getting. I know it changes a bit once in the car, but it certainly helped me avoid going through tons of drivers.


That's actually a really good idea. I like it. 




pionkej said:


> Out of curiosity, why only the low QTC for the midbass? Is it because the excursion on a midrange is usually low enough that there isn't much to worry about in the way of cone travel, and therefore transient response is not much a concern no matter the Q? I have found that I like to keep the Q of my drivers close to each other. It may be psychoacoustics, but I feel it helps with the transition from one speaker to the next.


The honest answer is this:
For the midbass, that's what multiple testing and experimentation got me to.
The midbass blended better as there was no mechanical high pass filter or notch filter (which is really more accurate... I term it a high pass b/c I wouldn't be crossing lower than fs in most cases anyway) on it since the Q was lessened so much. When you look at the impedance sweep on my drivers in the car in the kicks in the enclosure, you'll see the Q is only a small blip, with a broader bandpass. Rather than a large spike at fs, the impedance spike is more like a subtle bump. So, in that case, not a steep slope or abrupt change in resistance. I believe that's what's allowed me to get such a smooth transition. I'm actually not even running a HPF on the midbasses. They play from 220hz and down. And I've not had any issues with them thus far.

For both midbass and midrange, my goal is to lessen or move the fs as much as I can away from the passband I intend to use. That may seem counterintuitive (ie: why wouldn't you use the driver as low as you can)... well, shifting the fs isn't very easy, but changing the Q is moreso. Without having the equations on hand to prove that, I'm just going to have to go off memory of my own experiments. 
For example, if I plan or want to cross a certain size driver around 300hz, I play with stuffing or enclosure size so that I shift the fs down or flatten out the Q enough to where there's less internal resistance as an artifact of the enclosure. Make sense? Easy for me to talk about because I'm playing these graphs and scenarios over in my head from when I've done it. Not sure if I'm relaying it well.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I agree with this statement as well.
> 
> This is the reason why I asked if the Klippel tests compared were for broken in drivers. None of those tests for the Dayton subs and the IDQ subs in the Klippel section (unless my memory sucks today) mention how long that sub was broken in for at the time of testing. If they were both tested out of the box, that would essentially invalidate some of the results and a re-test would be appropriate.
> 
> I only mentioned the Dayton and IDQ again because it was a hotly debated comparison in this thread and I figured it would be more relevant. You can substitute any sub.


I'm not trying to be difficult, but it would only invalidate the tests if the parameters did change over time. Without a before/after comparison to see if they changed, we have no way of knowing if they are valid or not. I only say this because from the posts I have read on the topic of break-in, some speakers did have significant changes and some had changes that were minuscule.

However, we are back to needing to break the speakers in to see if they "needed" to be broken in.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> The honest answer is this:
> For the midbass, that's what multiple testing and experimentation got me to.
> The midbass blended better as there was no mechanical high pass filter or notch filter (which is really more accurate... I term it a high pass b/c I wouldn't be crossing lower than fs in most cases anyway) on it since the Q was lessened so much. When you look at the impedance sweep on my drivers in the car in the kicks in the enclosure, you'll see the Q is only a small blip, with a broader bandpass. Rather than a large spike at fs, the impedance spike is more like a subtle bump. So, in that case, not a steep slope or abrupt change in resistance. I believe that's what's allowed me to get such a smooth transition. I'm actually not even running a HPF on the midbasses. They play from 220hz and down. And I've not had any issues with them thus far.
> 
> ...


I have seen your posts on what you did with your midbass. I didn't want to build an enclosure in my doors, so I don't have much ability to change my midbass speakers like that. I DID do it with my midranges though since they are in my kicks.

I did it by changing the amount of stuffing like you mentioned.

So, from my end, everything makes sense. For anybody else reading along, the best way to learn this is invest in a WT3 and see the changes take place. I am curious though if there is a "breaking point" on stuffing an enclosure to change the Q to reduce the impedance spike. I would think at a point you start to actually "choke" the driver like it is in too small an enclosure causing things to start going the other direction. I've never tried this, so it is simply speculation at this point.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

oh yea... you can actually overstuff an enclosure. I don't recall the parameters becoming the same, but it certainly sounded like junk. 

FWIW, different types of materials will have different effects on the box damping.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> A difference that audible should severely skew a Klippel test result.


or maybe the dude just got used to them.

see prior post above...


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I question the validity of the Klippel tests on this forum as there is no mention of a break-in procedure/period. To what extent they would change the results, I'm not sure, but if there's any chance that they would change after a break in period, that makes said results null and void.


That's because you've never performed, or even seen a Klippel test done. The Klippel isn't just a few second MLS pulse to acquire data. It's HOURS. When I did my testing, it was for over an hour, twice, then the third time the test lasted 45 minutes for my final data. It's essentially pink noise, and frequency sweeps non-stop for the duration of the test, at, hopefully 75-80% of full BL, which takes close to as much power free air as a speaker can handle.

So, you can question all you want, but it goes back to you really not understanding what a Klippel is.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Which is why I specifically mentioned that at least 12 other people have built these speakers and experienced the same behavior, and many of them are expert speaker builders that do have proper testing equipment to design the right crossovers and have a sensitive enough ear to distinguish these kinds of changes.
> 
> Now if you're going to dismiss what I had to say in this regard based on the assumption of mass user error in the DIY Home Audio community, I have nothing else to say to you. These speakers do sound different after some periods of time, and *they do test different as well.*
> What does your post about over-stuffing an enclosure have anything to do with this?



I have no idea why you're getting all up in arms over my reply. It isn't an attack on anyone. "Expert" speaker builder or not, I'd like to see the data and how they can explain the audible difference via that method. This is in regards to the bolded above. If it can't be provided, then so be it. However, if they do have the proper testing equipment, it should be extremely easy for them to obtain data before and after break in that would clue us in to the change. I'd like to see that (a simple impedance sweep would be telling and only requires a connection twice: one before you start listening and one at some time interval later, to evidence a change).
But, I still have to wonder when people talk about drivers breaking in and the audible difference, if it isn't their hearing that's changing... or at least in addition to the parameter shift. I would like more data on this but it's simply not out there. I'm not falling on any particular side of the fence; I'd just like to see where someone has been able to correlate the two (or decorrelate). By "someone" I of course mean an author of a published book or AES whitepaper or the like. As far as I've found, that kind of information isn't out there and what you do find is simply people arguing. 
I know parameters change. I've seen it in my own tests, though the changes has been extremely minimal (a couple hz in fs and maybe 1/10th of Q. I would specifically like to see what parameters caused what change. Did a looser spring result in different distortion artifacts? Did the change in Q (which, I've found is VERY, VERY minimal) give the liked response? How much of the difference noted is true electro-acoustical property changes and how much is psychoacoustics? 
See what I'm saying?

What does my post about over-stuffing an enclosure have to do with your post?... hell, I don't know. I meant my post above regarding speaker break in, where I mentioned the same plausible explanation for differences in sound via break in. 


Since some of this pertains to this thread, I'll leave it here, but check this discussion for more break-in talk. There's real good info in there and some actual test data via a link someone posted that we were able to analyze, though I do not know the author so I'm blindly trusting his data (btw, his "conclusions" are ridiculous, IMO).
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-confirm-deny-speakers-need-break-period.html


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

would u guys think spl subs would be the ones that desperately need the break in? without knowing much i would think they are the ones stiff


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I don't think it matters if the sub is advertised as SPL or SQ. A sub is a sub with a cone, a voice coil, and a suspension.


ya but if a sub is supposed to be SQ, its cone should be light, and its suspension shouldnt really be that stiff

where as spl subs have heavy, stiff, etc. everything which is why they need so many watts


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> ya but if a sub is supposed to be SQ, its cone should be light, and its suspension shouldnt really be that stiff
> 
> where as spl subs have heavy, stiff, etc. everything which is why they need so many watts


there's no such thing as an "sq" sub. there are "spl" companies making subwoofers that go in some of the best sounding cars I've ever heard.
Tuned/Installed correctly, just about any sub (with obvious disregard to crappy made ones) will work in either type of setup. You just have to know what your goal is and build/tune for it. 

SPL is a way to relate volume levels. Not how inept a sub is for 'critical' listening. IMHO...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

u cant deny they are built differently and u cant deny subs built to take gobs of power are stiffer and heavier.

not sure why u have to get all technical

and ya ive seen "spl" subs crossed at the lower crossover(they had 50hz) and of course it wont sound that bad playing 30-50hz


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

tspence in the house?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I can't help but feel as though you're attacking completely irrelevant and useless aspects of my knowledge (or lack of) to try to make a point. Whether or not I've seen those tests should completely irrelevant. I'm not an idiot; I can get a rough idea of how things are recorded and what's done during a test. This does not change the fact that some subs do need to be broken in, and unless you have a database of subs and their break-in periods if any, any and all subs that are tested should undergo a break-in period. Your Klippel test should not be used to break-in these subs especially if suspension compliance at the very least loosens up as the test progresses, which would likely be the case with the Fi subs in the video I posted. In fact, that IS the case as was blatantly pointed out by the individual making the video. Do you really think that 2 hours of Klippel testing constitutes a thorough break-in? Three samples of data on a sub that clearly undergoes a break-in period is not an accurate representation of that sub's long term characteristics in the Klippel test's results.
> 
> If I understood exactly what Klippel is, I would still come to the same conclusion; you need to break in those subs. If there are audible differences between drivers fresh out of the box and after they have been broken in, that's sure to pick up on a Klippel test based on the claims in this very thread that Klippel tests pick up everything that can possibly be heard on a sub.
> 
> So do tell me why it is even remotely relevant that I haven't seen a Klippel test done.


So far you have posted a youtube video and a couple of quotes from people stating that there is an audible change as speakers break-in. You have also stated there is data to back it up, but have posted none of it that I remember. If the sound of a speaker changes, it is because a parameter of some sort changed (Erin already said this), so there should be data. Find some and bring it back and I think you will get "attacked" less.



Cruzer said:


> ya but if a sub is supposed to be SQ, its cone should be light, and its suspension shouldnt really be that stiff
> 
> where as spl subs have heavy, stiff, etc. everything which is why they need so many watts


Is the Morel Ultimo a "SQ" sub? It has a 3" VC and can handle 1kw. The truth is that subs can be optimized for a purpose, but you can "fix" that with the proper install (see Erin's comment below). Sometimes the speaker may take too many watts or aa enclosure that is too large to be practical, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. 

Plenty of "SQ" subs are also "stiff". They may use a stiffer surround or spider to help control cone motion, or to help prevent cone breakup (distortion). And "heavy" isn't really a factor since it needs to be calculated with "motor strength" to determine how well the cone is controlled.



bikinpunk said:


> there's no such thing as an "sq" sub. there are "spl" companies making subwoofers that go in some of the best sounding cars I've ever heard.
> Tuned/Installed correctly, just about any sub (with obvious disregard to crappy made ones) will work in either type of setup. You just have to know what your goal is and build/tune for it.
> 
> SPL is a way to relate volume levels. Not how inept a sub is for 'critical' listening. IMHO...


+1



Cruzer said:


> u cant deny they are built differently and u cant deny subs built to take gobs of power are stiffer and heavier.
> 
> not sure why u have to get all technical
> 
> and ya ive seen "spl" subs crossed at the lower crossover(they had 50hz) and of course it wont sound that bad playing 30-50hz


I don't think he would try to deny subs are built differently. You also have to understand that bias plays a large part in how an "spl" or "sq" sub is built. 
We have already told/shown you guys that how a sub performs is largely a function of the enclosure that is built for it. SPL guys build their boxes for the biggest peak they can. That is why you hear terms like "one-note wonder". SPL guys want a PEAK, SQ guys want FLAT. YOU have the greatest amount of control over the sound of the sub by the box you put it in.

If you don't think bias is real, re-read your posts. You made a statement that SPL subs are "heavy" and "stiff"...so you won't buy a "heavy" and "stiff" sub. Marketers know this, so the market the "beefy" subs to the SPL guys. Why do you think the JL w7 series ALWAYS starts so much controversy? The majority of those subs are probably optimized for an SPL type install, but the guys who have built "SQ" boxes SWEAR they are great subs. It never fails, there are always people who then jump in and say they can't possibly sound good for "SQ". Once they convince them they can, they say, "well, it still isn't worth the money"...

...haters gonna hate


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

OSN said:


> tspence in the house?


VBA anyone?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> u cant deny they are built differently and u cant deny subs built to take gobs of power are stiffer and heavier.
> 
> not sure why u have to get all technical
> 
> and ya ive seen "spl" subs crossed at the lower crossover(they had 50hz) and of course it wont sound that bad playing 30-50hz


what's technical about my reply? You said 'sq' and 'spl' subs. I did, too. I said the words "install" and "tune". I don't see anything technical? Besides, you yourself stated earlier in this thread that install "is a given", IIRC. I don't get why you think I'm being technical. 


Of course subs are built differently. Again, for all intensive purposes, tuned and installed correctly, you shouldn't have an issue with either one. We're not exploring the option of using a 'lightweight' sub for spl. If we were, maybe my reply would have been more tailored to that topic. We are discussing, given the context of this thread, an 'spl' sub being used for an sq setup, and again I say that an spl sub can work great in any setup given the right install and tune. That correlates directly with spl'rs, too, who do research into their car and find it's transfer function along with the natural resonance of the cabin itself and often tune their ported enclosures for the highest SPL at this frequency which is then complemented by the cabin's natural peak frequency and BAM... more SPL with less effort with just a little bit of experimentation and calculations.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

bikinpunk said:


> what's technical about my reply? You said 'sq' and 'spl' subs. I did, too. I said the words "install" and "tune". I don't see anything technical? Besides, you yourself stated earlier in this thread that install "is a given", IIRC. I don't get why you think I'm being technical.
> 
> 
> Of course subs are built differently. Again, for all intensive purposes, tuned and installed correctly, you shouldn't have an issue with either one. We're not exploring the option of using a 'lightweight' sub for spl. If we were, maybe my reply would have been more tailored to that topic. We are discussing, given the context of this thread, an 'spl' sub being used for an sq setup, and again I say that an spl sub can work great in any setup given the right install and tune. That correlates directly with spl'rs, too, who do research into their car and find it's transfer function along with the natural resonance of the cabin itself and often tune their ported enclosures for the highest SPL at this frequency which is then complemented by the cabin's natural peak frequency and BAM... more SPL with less effort with just a little bit of experimentation and calculations.


because just like pionekej said there are mixes of spl and sq, and there are high power handling sq subs, and there are stiff and heavy sq subs.

u know exactly my point when i say spl sub and sq sub and referring to break in. and instead of just understanding the generalized statement, u want to go into detail about it.

point is, u can take 5000 watt rms sub and its almost guaranteed to need more of a break in, and more of a change in the T/S vs a 500 watt rms home theater sub. 

*awaiting ur in depth, trying to prove me wrong, cant generalizes subs, etc. etc. reply*


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Cruzer said:


> because just like pionekej said there are mixes of spl and sq, and there are high power handling sq subs, and there are stiff and heavy sq subs.
> 
> u know exactly my point when i say spl sub and sq sub and referring to break in. and instead of just understanding the generalized statement, u want to go into detail about it.
> 
> ...


Wow...wtf, dude. what is that about?
What is this forum about? learning, or just pandering to the generalizations?
You know, I didn't quite catch you were talking about break in as much as I latched on to the "spl" sub portion because, frankly, I thought you were caught up in that. So, that's my bad for the misunderstanding. However, I don't see how it prompted the reply you just gave when all you had to say was "dude, I was talking about break-in". 

You're in a thread asking about subwoofers and we've been talking 'technical' details about the whole way through. You've been bringing up Le and distortion audibility ... if that isn't technical, I don't know what is.


My point in the above replies was to essentially say to not get wrapped up in a company's marketing methods. *I'm here to help you. I've been trying to do that this whole time. *So have John and others. John and Xtreme seem to have gotten where I was coming from. OF COURSE not all subs are created equal but I'm trying to stress that, IN YOUR CASE, all of these nuances and technical details aren't necessarily going to be a hindrance as you have admitted you don't have a system nor have had one. My best advice was for you to get started and get an idea of where to go. Or simply wait until the GTG where you can hear other setups. 

We're not here to "prove" anything. I certainly am not. I don't get accolades from my wife for knowing stereo information. No one on this forum calls me to tell me how great I am. I think anyone who has met me knows that I do my best to always help and learn myself. I wasn't raised in the most of 'praising' homes so anytime I get into conversations like this, I do my best to try NOT to send out a snottish vibe or even remotely appear to be talking down because I know how it feels.
Furthermore, I get nothing out of it other than the feeling that while I'm helping others learn, I'm learning a little bit more myself. That is the SOLE reason I even stay involved. I post my thoughts, people quiz me on it, I do a bit more research, we discuss, we learn. If If it wasn't for that, I would've stopped caring about this hobby long ago and just stuck with my 2 10" rockford subs.
Go back and look at my old threads... seriously... I was completely ignorant in this hobby. I asked a lot of the same questions you did and you're even asking some I wish I would have. I've been trying to help you from getting wrapped up around the wheels of the truck like I had. 


If you want to be an ass about it (I have no idea how else you would take the quoted above if you were me), then you're on your own. 
I've busted my ass here to help explain the technical because that's what you wanted and that's where you headed when you started in on the distortion talk. So, did you not want to get technical? Heck, if anything, my above comment about subs is anything _but_ technical. If you don't want them anymore then I don't see the point in me trying to help you out. I was thinking I was helping you out and ultimately helping bridge our in person conversation for next month, but apparently I've struck a nerve with my reply that, in general, a sub is indeed a sub. 

I don't expect you to kiss my ass, but I would expect at least a bit of respect for the effort that I've given in this thread trying to help you out via this thread and even your PMs (that were unprompted, thus if you try to say I didn't have to help in this thread, well, you didn't have to PM me asking for help the past few weeks... which in turn prompted me to give you my number).
Additionally, I'd just like to throw out there that this is probably the third time or so that I've felt your attitude toward me and others here has been a bit brisk, but I brushed it off as it just being the nature of type/text and that you weren't really being as rude as it seemed. Apparently I was wrong. I dunno, man, I've tried really hard to help you and your reply is a slap in the face. While that may sound like a '*****' thing to say, it is what it is. I don't get my feelings hurt, but I don't have a lot of patience for people who have no appreciation for the help others try to give. I'm quite sure the others here feel the same way. 

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, but I certainly would expect some appreciation. I guess I'm not helping as much as I thought I was so I'm done with our particular conversation. I truly don't have time for this if no one is benefiting from it... I certainly don't benefit from what you said to me above and apparently you aren't benefiting, so catch ya' on the flip side. If you'd like to hash out any misunderstandings further, then I'm game. But if you want to continue to make me feel like I'm the one who's being an ******* by simply getting' technical' in a technical forum, then we have nothing further to discuss. I realize this is quite a lengthy reply, but I feel it is needed to stress my points and so that others can understand my motives here in this thread and on the forum. I'm always here to help. I'm also a very busy dude, and when someone throws it back in my face then there's no reason for me to spend more time on it. 

- Erin

Edit: Forgot the bold.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Here's a start.
> 
> B2 audio Better Bass
> 
> Read the fine print at the bottom.


I did read the fine print, and I'm sorry to say that isn't data. A statement (especially from a manufacturer) about speaker break-in does not count as data. I'm talking about bringing back evidence that parameters change over use/time and correlating data about how those changes would also change the sound produced.

Again, I'm not saying I'm anti-break-in, but I haven't seen, heard, or measured enough evidence to say it exists either (especially to the extent some people claim). And just be prepared that until you provide actual data based evidence, you're assertions will not hold much water with many people here.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Wow...wtf, dude.


Seriously. I think I'm bowing out of this thread as well. If you want to accuse me of "hanging on to Erin's side" so I'm quitting too...that's fine. It's a fact that I'm personally offended and I feel terrible that I dragged him into this mess to begin with.

To bring people up to speed who are following this thread or who read this thread in the future. Cruzer had contacted Erin and I both PRIOR to us posting in this thread asking for input on various topics. It is important to note that HE SOUGHT OUT our opinions (though I didn't know he had contacted Erin until after I asked him to join this conversation). I happened across this thread while searching "New Posts" and decided I would try and contribute. After arguing in circles and becoming extremely frustrated because most of my attempts to help were thrown back in my face, I approached Erin via PM to see if he could help clear up some of the information being thrown around.

Cruzer-

We are all learning here. I felt I had more experience than you and so I attempted to help you. When all of my suggestions were either dismissed or thrown back in my face, I approached somebody who was "further along the curve" than I was. Enter Erin. It seems that neither of us can please you with our advice...and we were both sincerely trying to help you. To help you learn that reading doesn't replace experience (and vice-versa), but that a combination of both is key. To help you understand that install and tuning is an art and really is much more important than what gear you purchase, and it is not a given. To help you understand that you are stressing about distortion in the frequency range that our ears are least sensitive to. We try and help, you reject it. So I'm over it, and I'm out.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

first time looking seriously at this thread. Get the flatlyne and rock it... Or the IDq. I do hear good things about whatever the other sub is too. Its pretty awesome. Ignore these guys with their techno babble


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Cruzer said:


> *awaiting ur in depth, trying to prove me wrong, cant generalizes subs, etc. etc. reply*


Please tell me you're not being serious. If you are that's quite a shame.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I can't believe that this thread went 351 posts for something that covers two whopping octaves of musical reproduction! IMHO subwoofer choice is the least important aspect of a mobile audio sound system, YET all too many tend to focus most of their budget on the subs alone.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> I can't believe that this thread went 351 posts for something that covers two whopping octaves of musical reproduction! IMHO subwoofer choice is the least important aspect of a mobile audio sound system, YET all too many tend to focus most of their budget on the subs alone.


So it deserves a $50 budget and we should not discuss it at all?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Cruzer said:


> So it deserves a $50 budget and we should not discuss it at all?


You obviously know it all, so why did you even post a thread to begin with?


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> You obviously know it all, so why did you even post a thread to begin with?


Game. Set. Match.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

ChrisB said:


> I can't believe that this thread went 351 posts for something that covers two whopping octaves of musical reproduction! IMHO subwoofer choice is the least important aspect of a mobile audio sound system, YET all too many tend to focus most of their budget on the subs alone.


Contrary to your statement, proper porting is essential to accurate sound reproduction. This includes tweets, mids, and subs.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Cruzer said:


> point is, u can take 5000 watt rms sub and its almost guaranteed to need more of a break in, and more of a change in the T/S vs a 500 watt rms home theater sub.


Don't be a dipshit! Come on man. What the **** has this place come to? 

Use your mind. There's not a magnetic gap and voice coil in this world that can take 5KW RMS for more than a fraction of a second without going China Syndrome. You made that number up and if you did not... I challenge you to try it. I'll supply the REAL amplifier that will do it, you will need 240V 3 phase.

Cotdammit.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA what 5KW REALLY is? Do you own a calculator?

I deem this thread ****ed.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

XtremeRevolution said:


> B2 audio Better Bass
> 
> 
> 
> I think guys that make subs that break world SPL records might know a thing or two...


Let's try it.... what's your timing bet?

[hint] you are in the wrong league now [/hint]

You are in a different world than I am in. We use real power.

NOT ISBL power.... (If Struck By Lightning)

Hence why I recommended a real power source, 240V 3PH

Do you own a calculator? Can you do simple linear math?

IF you say yes.. You are lying. Because you would have backed down before you posted.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Motherfucking linear math is now linked to some sort of ********... WTF.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

This thread went from ridiculous to educational to an absolute trainwreck in a hurry...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

It can come back to educational.. As long as people understand limitations and simple physics.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

chad said:


> It can come back to educational.. As long as people understand limitations and simple physics.


Before anything can be taught there has to be a willingness to listen and learn.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

BEAVER said:


> Before anything can be taught there has to be a willingness to listen and learn.


We may be ****ed.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Wow say "spl sub" and "5k watts" and people flip and completely miss the point


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Cruzer said:


> Wow say "spl sub" and "5k watts" and people flip and completely miss the point


Now would probably be a good time to clear up your point so everyone can be on the same page.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

This thread...


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Cruz, please back away from the computer, enough is enough, you're on information overload, stop before you fry a coil....LOL


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## pbasil1 (Mar 4, 2011)

Have you thought about a Polk SR12? I just sold my last one, but they are amazing SQ subs, and certainly have great output. You mentioned that you likes the MM, the sr is the next/highest line...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

pbasil1 said:


> Have you thought about a Polk SR12? I just sold my last one, but they are amazing SQ subs, and certainly have great output. You mentioned that you likes the MM, the sr is the next/highest line...


How does it compare to the popular subs on here like Dayton image dynamics etc. I do like my polks just not enough output sealed


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

chad said:


> Don't be a dipshit! Come on man. What the **** has this place come to?
> 
> Use your mind. There's not a magnetic gap and voice coil in this world that can take 5KW RMS for more than a fraction of a second without going China Syndrome. You made that number up and if you did not... I challenge you to try it. I'll supply the REAL amplifier that will do it, you will need 240V 3 phase.
> 
> ...


ummm... thats why my friend has a DC Audio Level 6 18 hooked up to a pair of Stetsom 7k2E amps strapped... in his daily driver... in a box tuned below 35hz?


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

can we just close this pissing contest of a thread? its going nowhere in a hurry


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Cruzer,
> 
> After much thought, I regret to inform you that no matter what you do, it will never be as epic as my IDQ10 V2's in my shagbox.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of the roof liner on my 79 Firebird. I went all through highschool with it like that.......in the 90's! :blush:


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*The biggest lesson learned from this topic:



Awesome shag box is awesome! 

/thread*


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

bbotelhoHI said:


> ummm... thats why my friend has a DC Audio Level 6 18 hooked up to a pair of Stetsom 7k2E amps strapped... in his daily driver... in a box tuned below 35hz?


and what's the REAL impedance in the passband, and what's the REAL voltage at WFO.....

Come on man, I don't give a rat's ass what your buddy has, he could have 3 eyes and still have managed to pick up a raging case of herpes for all I care, words are words. Creative and complex thinking are... well.. impossible for some.

We won't even enter the realm of common sense.

Dude, really, *THINK* about it  THINK about how LITTLE acoustic energy is being generated by 5KW, IF the motor si really getting it. and THEN from there look at the losses between the 2 forms of energy and understand that the rest is simply utilized as a space heater... a HUUGE space heater.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

SHAG BOX RAWKS!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Yeah baby, YEAH!

I guess I can try to help the OP with each of his choices:
1. Image Dynamics - they appear to be under new management

2. Polk Audio - they are owned by DEI

3. IA - the dumbest marketing scheme known to man aimed at adolescent teens who listen to gangsta rap, yo

None of the above!


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