# Interesting S44 Vs Dual Mono..



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Just did a swap in a clients vehicle which consisted of a Genny Dual Mono, figured while at it I should get em nekkid. To my surprise this was the comparison I found ..










Now I understand that it is costly nowadays to get something into this country, but is it now possible that the TRU S44 should fairly be compared to the double priced DMX?

Im honestly a fan and supporter of both. But first and foremost is my family and the ability to put food on the table.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

LOL


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

Check out ampguts and the insides of all the genesis amps... they don't look all that impressive, but I don't know much about amp design


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Very informative !!

Thanx Don !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

No problem sir. Help decision making easier?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Donald, you always tell the TRUth and that's why I love ya!


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Donald .. Ugh !! 

I feel the love though nut brudder.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

I'm curious why you put the Genesis board facing the other way, though. And what's on the those transistors? Snot?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

I suck at camera skills?  Or it may have been my anal tendencies of of aligning things.  

Gism perhaps? A few sacrificed babies never hurt the internals of an amp did they?


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> I'm curious why you put the Genesis board facing the other way, though. And what's on the those transistors? Snot?


Looks like direct view of the TO3P's on both, from the other side you wouldnt see but the traces. Looks like twice the output devices to me


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

The TRU has REAL nice build quality.

Too bad the case is fugly. I would display the guts though if they somehow managed to make their way into my car.


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

3.5max6spd said:


> Looks like direct view of the TO3P's on both, from the other side you wouldnt see but the traces. Looks like twice the output devices to me


Sure does. But we dont know what devices those are, and there can be drastic performance differences even within the same package. I DO see the caps on the TRU amp, and they are nothing special.

I'd be more interested to know what the part numbers are for each of the transistors.


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

Whiterabbit said:


> Sure does. But we dont know what devices those are, and there can be drastic performance differences even within the same package. I DO see the caps on the TRU amp, and they are nothing special.
> 
> I'd be more interested to know what the part numbers are for each of the transistors.


The TRU amp uses 8 pairs of TIP 35/36 125 watt devices. I believe, and you can double check with peter the distributor for genesis amp, they uses 4 pairs of sanken 130 watt devices. I am not sure which model # sanken though.


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## Class ey! (Jan 24, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Just did a swap in a clients vehicle which consisted of a Genny Dual Mono, figured while at it I should get em nekkid. To my surprise this was the comparison I found ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey sir how would you say the sound differences between the amps? and do you know if there are dealers in Montreal area? I would like to listen to these in person


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

I wouldn't even wonder why the Tru has alot of output transistors as compared to the Genesis Dual Mono. The tru is a 4 channel amp with a power of 200x2 bridged at 4ohms vs the Genesis which is only rated at [email protected] It's easy to see that the Tru makes more power, hence the reason for more output transistors. It's not a fair comparison to begin with. But it's nice to know that there is a cheaper option in amps for those who aren't willing to spend alot.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

invecs said:


> I wouldn't even wonder why the Tru has alot of output transistors as compared to the Genesis Dual Mono. The tru is a 4 channel amp with a power of 200x2 bridged at 4ohms vs the Genesis which is only rated at [email protected] It's easy to see that the Tru makes more power, hence the reason for more output transistors. It's not a fair comparison to begin with. But it's nice to know that there is a cheaper option in amps for those who aren't willing to spend alot.


 You've hit it right on the head. There not much more to it than that in my book. We all know the quality product that Genesis is, no one is trying to indicate otherwise. Theres no reason for anyone to take it any further out of context. However, that amplifier board that you see in that pic is the S500 MonoBlock 

Though makes no difference, they have the same layout in the power supply and same amount of output devices, just configured differently on the other end. Another nice touch is the preamp and its traces are on a different board, completely separated from the power side of things.

But you must admit a picture speaks a thousand words, and this is a good way to illustrate what TRU has put out in its respective price point is impressive on the hardware side...lets face it :The Genesis Dual mono is one of the few current Dual Mono amplifiers on the market you could even compare it to. Something like a DLS A3 which is reverse engineered, overseas made, higher current design to work at lower impedances is not much comparison there for either amplifier.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

If the tru uses a TIP35/36 pair I'd like to point out that the TRU uses easy to find transistors vs genesis that uses expensive harder to find output transistors.

In my eyes, the tru reminds me of two Kicker ZR240's or two ZX460's. I'm sure there are some design differences, but they probably aren't too different.

Looks like a solid product. Thanks for the pics.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

durwood said:


> In my eyes, the tru reminds me of two Kicker ZR240's or two ZX460's. I'm sure there are *some design differences*, but they probably aren't too different.


uhmm..A BIG difference being the ZR/ZX's are high current amplifiers. Just one of those amplifiers is as big or bigger than one S44.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

one accepts a lower impedance load than the other, but if the transistors are operating within their SOA, then there really isn't that big of a difference. They are both going to use the same ammount of current. The only difference is the load. The TRU amp is optimized for 4 ohms, the kicker ZR - 2 ohms.

The size difference is a result of passive vs active cooling. I prefer the smaller size. 

If the input circuitry uses the standard TI opamp chips as most amps do, I can't see there being too many other differences.

Just so you know, none of my comments were negative towards the TRU. I loved my kickers, very solid reliable amps, but easy to service if needed. I hope I could expect the same from TRU.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

durwood said:


> one accepts a lower impedance load than the other, but if the transistors are operating within their SOA, then there really isn't that big of a difference. They are both going to use the same ammount of current. The only difference is the load. The TRU amp is optimized for 4 ohms, the kicker ZR - 2 ohms.
> 
> The size difference is a result of passive vs active cooling. I prefer the smaller size.
> 
> ...


Not taking them that way whatsoever.
Trust me, i paid primetime for my ZR 1000, ZR600 (back in day)and I still have a ZR360 that I had fixed from Kicker 
Those ****ers are just very very inefficient....hehe


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

3.5max6spd said:


> Not taking them that way whatsoever.
> Trust me, i paid primetime for my ZR 1000, ZR600 (back in day)and I still have a ZR360 that I had fixed from Kicker
> Those ****ers are just very very inefficient....hehe


That's because that's what everyone wanted back then.  Those have been replaced by the classD market. 

I'm just happy that the TRU is a smaller sized class A/B with what looks like a solid fondation for good clean power. It can drop right into my install without changing the amp rack. That makes me extremely


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Any data on the efficiency of these amps?


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> Any data on the efficiency of these amps?


None that I've seen. 

Figure Cant expect to to be any different than most unregulated design class a/b amplifier at 1/3 power, being most efficient as you push'm harder. My last multichannel amplifier put a bigger hurting according to my voltage meter when pushed midway to full tilt with the class D sub section, ironically these two together dont seem to pull my voltage as drastically regardless of how loud I play them. Then again the sub section on that amp was by all means making more power.


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

3.5max6spd said:


> None that I've seen.
> 
> Figure Cant expect to to be any different than most unregulated design class a/b amplifier at 1/3 power, being most efficient as you push'm harder. My last multichannel amplifier put a bigger hurting according to my voltage meter when pushed midway to full tilt with the class D sub section, ironically these two together dont seem to pull my voltage as drastically regardless of how loud I play them. Then again the sub section on that amp was by all means making more power.


when I was listening to your system in the driver side I had my eye on the voltage meter almost the whole time, it didn't fluctuate much on your car at all.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

BTW, This would be their sites updated link to the production Steel amps.

http://trutechnology.com/products/steel/steelseries_08.html


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

The picture doesn't tell the whole story, and it isn't as simple as the number of output devices as all output devices aren't created equal even if they are mounted in the same size package.

The parts we use are Sanken from Japan, and have excellent Safe Operating Area, very linear gain and wide bandwidth which is why we like them so much.
We aren't the only Car Audio manufacturer to use them , and you will also find them in PA amps and Domestic Hifi.

The Korean made FJAF Fairchild parts in the Tru amp don't have the same gain linearity as the Sanken parts and the gain 'droops' quite quickly above 5 amps in the highest rated parts. 
This means you have to use more parts to get the same linearity of current gain. This is a particular issue with Car Audio as the impedances are lower than in Domestic HiFi, thus needing more current for a given output power.

So what appears to be more of the same output transistors isn't - it's more of a cheaper lower spec part to get the same result.

If you like your amplifiers with lots of components inside that's fine, but we prefer to work with fewer components of higher quality.

If the board is flipped over you will see Burr Brown OPA2134 preamp ic's as standard in our Dual Mono. These aren't a cost extra upgrade like some manufacturers offer, they are fitted to every Dual Mono as standard. And a bunch of other Series 3 models too, as standard.

There are things you can't see too, such as the gain and filter pots being matched in our factory to within 2% so the gain and filter controls track accurately. This can't be done economically with the block style ganged pots so +/- 5% parts are used giving a potential spread of 10% if one part is +5 and one -5. Doesn't do much for gain tracking.

Lots of other details are integrated into the design but I think you get the idea.

Quality isn't always visible, but it definitely shows up when you listen.

Gordon

Owner & Designer

Genesis I C E Ltd


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Quality isn't always visible, but it definitely shows up when you listen.
> 
> Gordon
> 
> ...


I whole heartedly agree. Let the products speak for themselves and let the people voice their opinions.

Dave Crigna


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

By the way Gordon I see this was your first post, so welcome to the forum.

And, just for the record while I may disagree with what you have to say, I do think Genesis Series III amplifiers are very nice amplifiers.

Dave Crigna


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> The picture doesn't tell the whole story, and it isn't as simple as the number of output devices as all output devices aren't created equal even if they are mounted in the same size package.
> 
> The parts we use are Sanken from Japan, and have excellent Safe Operating Area, very linear gain and wide bandwidth which is why we like them so much.
> We aren't the only Car Audio manufacturer to use them , and you will also find them in PA amps and Domestic Hifi.
> ...


Hello Gordon. 

How is more aggresively pushing those Sankens in their operation range result in avantage to using twice the output devices that operate with less load and in within their linear range to accomplish the desired end result?

Cost is a big concern with all you manufacturers. Certainly you are using a higher cost transistor (what 50-75 *cents* tops more expensive per transistor? LOL), but you surely are saving costs by using Sankens correct? I mean for each transistor in an amplifier there are dozens of parts that accompany them, which use more real estate...correct? And whats more expensive? 

The square inch cost of your 2 layer board (when you account the needs of hundreds of boards it adds up) is exponentially more of a cost issue than what transistor you use. Which btw many manufacturers with product in the Series III price range offer us a 4 layer board. Certainly there are lots of parts on the S44....moreso on one side, where you sure are getting your moneys worth out of your board by cramming both sides more efficiently. 
I'm not claiming I understand what your reasons for doing things the way you do, but things are more black and white and people are more intelligent here than to accept a 'those are inferior, cheap' vs 'we use less but the best' argument.

Lets be frank, you have cost considerations on your side as well-afterall thats the business you are in.

No one is speaking poorly of the Genesis name, no one is questioning your business, your knowledge or expertise...But it surely comes across very poorly when you would take the time to post on a public forum the way you have, scrutinizing a competitors product. 

The British pound being 2:1 on the dollar has ALOT to do with the grand scheme of things when Americans are overpaying for British product. And its apparent why you may be on the offensive, you have another high end company's imported product in your backyard at a nicer price point to dealers and consumers. But hey, its just easy for you to come out and claim its 'far east','cheaply made', 'cheap parts'...question its design to an otherwise no engineering backround base.... than to just let your product do the talking.

In a board like this where performance and value speak in the forefront, i have a hard time gauging how you feel your product is worth or that it performs twice as good as the one we are evaluating here. Because honestly having heard and appreciated your amplifiers.... I would have expected you show more confidence in your product.

Its not the general consumers fault the American dollar is weak. This thread was to determine and demonstate value in an exciting new product, not to bash yours, there just arent many Dual Mono's to compare it to.

One thing we can most def agree...

"Quality isn't always visible, but it definitely shows up when you listen."

Thats exactly what i took from my audition of the Steel Series amplifiers.

Cheers.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I'd like to see a comparison of the TIP35/36 transistor compared to the sanken device in terms of heat disappation-i.e. using multiple inexpensive parts vs a single pair of expensive parts.

If you provide a link to the datasheet or give me a part number I can look for myself.

I think you also have to factor in passive vs active cooling features that differentiate both products.


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

durwood said:


> I'd like to see a comparison of the TIP35/36 transistor compared to the sanken device in terms of heat disappation-i.e. using multiple inexpensive parts vs a single pair of expensive parts.
> 
> If you provide a link to the datasheet or give me a part number I can look for myself.
> 
> I think you also have to factor in passive vs active cooling features that differentiate both products.


Here you go...
TIP35/36C
http://www.keccorp.com/data/databook/pdf/TIP/Eng/TIP35C.pdf
http://www.keccorp.com/data/databook/pdf/TIP/Eng/TIP36C.pdf

Sanken
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/preview/258518.html

You have to click on the pdf link to bring up the sanken.

The compliment for Sanken 2sb1560 is 2sd2390

I know this is what genesis was using for Sanken devices but Gordon will have to confirm this.....

Dave Crigna


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## autofile (Oct 25, 2005)

If I am not mistaken, it was the TRU-boys that involved GENESIS in the conversation in the first place, by making a somewhat dubious comparison between the PCB of a TRU amp and the PCB of a GENESIS.
This was done in a rather obvious attempt on the TRU-boys part to try to show that there are more output devices and parts count, and thus by implication, greater value in the TRU amplifier.
Even though the TRU-boys failed to mention that the TRU amplifier is a four channel design where as the GENESIS is a 2 channel one. Thus accounting for one of the reasons for a difference in output device count.
This fact had to be pointed out, after the fact, by other disinterested parties.

TRU has a long history of under cover marketing and has well earned reputation for less than truthful advertising. This is only the latest instance.



3.5max6spd said:


> Hello Gordon.
> 
> How is more aggresively pushing those Sankens in their operation range result in avantage to using twice the output devices that operate with less load and in within their linear range to accomplish the desired end result?
> 
> ...


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

Edited; going to stay out of this one for now.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> Now I understand that it is costly nowadays to get something into this country, but *is it now possible that the TRU S44 should fairly be compared to the double priced DMX*?





autofile said:


> This was done in a rather obvious attempt on the TRU-boys part to try to show that there are more output devices and parts count, and thus by implication, greater value in the TRU amplifier.


So I'm assuming your answer to 6spd's question is NO?? 



> TRU has a long history of under cover marketing and has well earned reputation for less than truthful advertising. This is only the latest instance.


Did you see the part where 6spd said he supported both companies in an honest attempt to earn a living?


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

autofile said:


> If I am not mistaken, it was the TRU-boys that involved GENESIS in the conversation in the first place, by making a somewhat dubious comparison between the PCB of a TRU amp and the PCB of a GENESIS.
> This was done in a rather obvious attempt on the TRU-boys part to try to show that there are more output devices and parts count, and thus by implication, greater value in the TRU amplifier.
> Even though the TRU-boys failed to mention that the TRU amplifier is a four channel design where as the GENESIS is a 2 channel one. Thus accounting for one of the reasons for a difference in output device count.
> This fact had to be pointed out, after the fact, by other disinterested parties.
> ...


Funny thing Peter is that there are no TRU boys. No one has received any free products from us, nor did we pay anyone to review the products for us. So for those you are calling TRU boys, I call them consumers. 

As far as you allegations of marketing, I will let the product speak for itself. We have no control over what or how consumers compare products they purchase. It is no different than when someone buys a Genesis amp and compares it to their old Zapco amp, or Audison amp, or PPI amp, etc. I think this is something we all do. I remember the first time I bought a PPI amp. Fisrt thing I did was, Guess what, compared it to my Linear power amp. Pulled the lid right off and stared at a whole bunch of crap I had no idea what I was looking at.

I wonder what would happen if Genesis comes out with a new amplifier and people start to buy it and use it and start comparing it to their "old" TRU amp.
Should I immediately run to the forums and start making the same claims and start calling people the "Genesis Boys".

God forbid people actually using products and coming up with their own conclusions. Come on you are really grasping at straws here.

Dave Crigna


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

For the record, if anyone would like to fill my car full of Steel amps, I'll bend over to be a TRU-boy!


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

autofile said:


> TRU has a long history of under cover marketing and has well earned reputation for less than truthful advertising. This is only the latest instance.


I think thats a distasteful comment coming from a vendor. Me as a consumer I find the TRU better than the Profile 4 Ultra that I just got rid of in every way, am I going around belittling the Genesis amp? No, not even close, even as a consumer I don't find it to be that professional to do that unless it totally deserves it.

You shouldn't stoop to such levels. In all honesty I think this thread was a disaster to begin with and really shouldn't have been posted. Tension would come out sooner or later. On the other side of the fence I think that Gordon talking bad about a brand on talkaudio.uk wasn't such a good idea either. With all due respect both are less than great representation of Genesis, and in my opinion worse than so called "less than truthful advertising."

I'm not a TRUboy either, I'm just after good sound, and it fits the bill very very nicely.

Allow the product to speak for itself. Trust your ears as they say.


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## speakerboy (Oct 2, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> For the record, if anyone would like to fill my car full of Steel amps, I'll bend over to be a TRU-boy!


and the whoring begins.... 








I'll be next.

I don't think that it is a stretch to assume that a 4 layer PCB costs more than a 2 layer PCB. I do think that the support of Gordon by his competition (SQHead's comments) has shown through the virtual mudslinging done by him and his other representatives.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

autofile said:


> If I am not mistaken, it was the TRU-boys that involved GENESIS in the conversation in the first place, by making a somewhat dubious comparison between the PCB of a TRU amp and the PCB of a GENESIS.
> This was done in a rather obvious attempt on the TRU-boys part to try to show that there are more output devices and parts count, and thus by implication, greater value in the TRU amplifier.
> Even though the TRU-boys failed to mention that the TRU amplifier is a four channel design where as the GENESIS is a 2 channel one. Thus accounting for one of the reasons for a difference in output device count.
> This fact had to be pointed out, after the fact, by other disinterested parties.
> ...



Peter, I would have honestly thought more of you than to start the name calling. Was that really needed? Who here is a 'TRU boy'. Absolutely not one that I can see. I saw no name calling of the Genesis users posted, nor any disrespect toward it. Why you would resort to such a tasteless act is beyond me . Hopefully your post was a hasty one and didn't come out quite as you intended. Perhaps?

My intial intent with this post was to make a simple comparison. There are many here that know far more than myself in the internal aspect arena and I wanted to have MY thoughts either confirmed or denied. Its that simple. I also made a post stating that as well as sharing my support for both companies not one more than another.

Now as to your discrediting of the evaluation, well truth be told the pictured board is Not a 4 channel, but rather a shot of the S500. So should we now rule out your Multi Vs Stereo theory? No reason. This entire thread was Never meant to be a debate nor sway consumers or dealers one way or another. Ever.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> For the record, if anyone would like to fill my car full of Steel amps, I'll bend over to be a TRU-boy!


Psssht you'll do it for free and like it.


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## autofile (Oct 25, 2005)

Hi Dave,

So are you telling us that Don Amann (6spdcoupe) who started this thread is no longer a sales rep for TRU working the Northeat-Mid Atlantic territory through his firm called: eXquisite Marketing??

Strangely I was under the impression that he was also a retailer of TRU products at his store: Unexpected Creations in NJ.......hmm, I must be WAY of base right???

I do know one thing however: last year he represented himself as these things when he was trying to be our sales rep for the territory.

As for my "allegations" of less that truthful marketing, it has been well documented (ad nauseum) that TRU has in the past stated certain things like "100% hand made in the USA" when in fact a Korean company, Abyss was building the TRU amps in Korea for them. 
( I think this is being discussed in depth on the UK forums at this very moment in fact!)

Several other cases of similar less than truthful practices have also been widely documented by former TRU employees.

I realize that much of this happened prior to your joining the company Dave, but lets be real and call a duck an duck........



SQHEAD said:


> Funny thing Peter is that there are no TRU boys. No one has received any free products from us, nor did we pay anyone to review the products for us. So for those you are calling TRU boys, I call them consumers.
> 
> As far as you allegations of marketing, I will let the product speak for itself. We have no control over what or how consumers compare products they purchase. It is no different than when someone buys a Genesis amp and compares it to their old Zapco amp, or Audison amp, or PPI amp, etc. I think this is something we all do. I remember the first time I bought a PPI amp. Fisrt thing I did was, Guess what, compared it to my Linear power amp. Pulled the lid right off and stared at a whole bunch of crap I had no idea what I was looking at.
> 
> ...


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

autofile said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> So are you telling us that Don Amann (6spdcoupe) who started this thread is no longer a sales rep for TRU working the Northeat-Mid Atlantic territory through his firm called: eXquisite Marketing??
> 
> ...


real mature


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

time to bring back the gene internal analysis thread


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

autofile said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> So are you telling us that Don Amann (6spdcoupe) who started this thread is no longer a sales rep for TRU working the Northeat-Mid Atlantic territory through his firm called: eXquisite Marketing??
> 
> ...



LMFAO ! Peter who I am and MY OWN opinions and thoughts are directly related to TRU? Sorry bud, Im a grown man and have my own thoughts and opinions. No one spoon feeds me crap. Yes I am proudly still one in the same both retail and marketing.

TRIED to rep for you Peter? C'mon now, lets be honest with ourselves here ... you called me. Unfortunately like many others across the country your communication skills quickly dropped once contracts were signed. Although I send a consumer directly to you and surprise emails are quickly replied to. You dont reply to me perhaps because you dont like me? Oddly there must be alot of people that you dont like then. 

Please dont start with me about bringing this crap to the forum, Ive actually reserved alot. But since you opened the door and made it out in the open I felt it only proper to respond.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

bdubs767 said:


> time to bring back the gene internal analysis thread





npdang said:


> Posted by bdubs767 over at eca:
> 
> "Heres something i think you guys might find interesting...in light of compainies copying others..
> 
> ...


hhehe


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

heres the whole read from a while back...good stuff from onemoreamp my EE (not the ebay guy, ebay guy stole his name years ago) and few others very well informed individuals

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8658&page=5&highlight=genesis+brax


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

autofile said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> So are you telling us that Don Amann (6spdcoupe) who started this thread is no longer a sales rep for TRU working the Northeat-Mid Atlantic territory through his firm called: eXquisite Marketing??
> 
> ...


Ok Peter then you are a DUCK....are you happy now? Enough said about fowl. 

Just because you like to live in the past and can not accept that a company can actually move forward with a different mind set is beyond my control. I am so glad you are perfect and have made no mistakes in your business ventures. You are very lucky not having to look back and see where you need to improve. Good luck and may your business ventures continue to be free from faults. 

As for Don or any other "TRU BOYs", as you like to call them, they can and have commented themselves.

Dave Crigna


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

Instead of looking at amp guts, transistor and IC part numbers and trying to figure out which amplifier performs
better, a bench test will reveal the truth. Here's what Bink
did in the pro audio world.

He did a pro audio amplifier shootout inviting people to
bring their amps for testing, a party.  

Results published, I have a copy of it here;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/bink/bink.jpg

That's alot of amplifiers to test so they limited the test
to 4 ohms/ch and some amps didn't get the sagging AC line test done. That's ok, there is good data to draw upon
vs. going on wild goose chases on which amp is better.

The idea is simple. You establish a distortion reference
that is widely accepted as inaudible distortion, 1% THD+N was chosen. You drive the amplifier to this reference
which will yield the highest power rating vs. testing for
super low distortion which can yield the lowest score.

Bink used a massive load bank to ensure the resistance was stable. He used expensive testing gear.

Tests done @ 20hz, 1khz, 20khz with two different input
voltages, 117VAC & 96VAC 'sagging'.

This tells a nice picture on what the amps do. Someone
needs to gather up all these popular car amplifier and
run some tests at the time, same conditions, etc.

You can add burst testing to the mix, do 4 ohm/ch and
2 ohm/ch testing, etc. You can do thermal testing,
to see how long the amp operates at ambient until the
protect enables, etc.

Everyone in this thread is pretty much worthless information even from the amplifier designers themselves
as they have agendas.


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

thylantyr said:


> Instead of looking at amp guts, transistor and IC part numbers and trying to figure out which amplifier performs
> better, a bench test will reveal the truth. Here's what Bink
> did in the pro audio world.
> 
> ...


Come on Down...I'll warm up the AP and have a big enough power supply so there will be no sagging 0-40V 250amps on tap baby. There is enough 250watt dale resistors to keep me warm during the winter. 

You can be the unbiased witnessed as no one would ever believe the results coming from me. I have a whole file of amps I have tested. I have done testing not only for us, but for a host of other companies that needed unbiased third party verification. of their products. Of course I can not reveal any info though.

But I have also tested a lot of amplifiers for friends and myself from being an enthusiast. God forbid I leave the industry and post my results.... 
Not too many companies would be happy.

Dave Crigna


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## low (Jun 2, 2005)

SQHEAD said:


> ....But I have also tested a lot of amplifiers for friends and myself from being an enthusiast. God forbid I leave the industry and post my results....
> Not too many companies would be happy....
> 
> Dave Crigna


hey! i thought we discussed this. i WILL be getting first dibs on this info for publish...them TJ tacos are ready when you are


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Man this thread went to crap. 

Honestly, I don't know how any company survives anymore. They are all ready to rip each other down based on their marketing schemes. Let's be honest, no one's going to buy a new product without marketing of some kind.

I think most of us can see new trends in car audio very easily. One of those trends is solid power in a small footprint. The old days people were amazed at the size of amplifiers and how large they were and how much power they can produce (still somewhat in effect today). Now people are amazed if you can fit those high power amps into a smaller package and make it reliable. (I think the amp of the year has to go to alpine PDX). Now everyone is jumping on that bandwagon.

As a consumer who shops in the used amp section, I've been waiting for an amp with a good amount of power and will fit in a small footprint, preferably class a/b. With rising raw material costs such as aluminum and copper, I think TRU made a smart move with their amp design. I love the look of the genesis, sinfoni, DLS, (extruded heatsink) but they are just too big for that amount of power I want and $$$ places it out of my budget. TRU delivers even if it's not as flashy and expensive looking, at least it might be in my budget.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

SQHEAD said:


> Come on Down...I'll warm up the AP and have a big enough power supply so there will be no sagging 0-40V 250amps on tap baby. There is enough 250watt dale resistors to keep me warm during the winter.
> 
> You can be the unbiased witnessed as no one would ever believe the results coming from me. I have a whole file of amps I have tested. I have done testing not only for us, but for a host of other companies that needed unbiased third party verification. of their products. Of course I can not reveal any info though.
> 
> ...


Everyone has their own vision on amplifier testing. I think it would be
nice to have a stiff voltage test and sagging test also for car audio
amplifiers.

How many 250w resistors do you have? The problem with resistors is they
change resistance with heat making the amp test much more generous.
This is a common mistake with people doing amp tests. I'm not saying
your method is in error. But a massive load is really needed.

My amplifier load is rated for ~ 35,000 watts.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/load/

Not because you will drive 35kw, but rather you want a stable load where
resistance doesn't even move 0.1 ohms.

Bink used these;   

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/38989/5094/0///72/#msg_38989

If you have tested data, post the test methodology and amplifier scores,
make a spreadsheet. It is what it is.


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## FREQBOX (Jun 25, 2007)

low said:


> hey! i thought we discussed this. i WILL be getting first dibs on this info for publish...them TJ tacos are ready when you are


I called dibs!! LOL 
Ive really been craving those tacos


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

I agree the thread has unfortunately got a little personal, which I feel is unfortunate.

However I'd like to state why I posted on it in the first place. If another manufacturer is going to compare their products with mine by disassembling both and making comparisons about component quality, I have a couple of options. 

One is to sit back and let them go for it, and let everyone who reads the post think that the comparison must be true as Genesis hasn't refuted the claims.

The other is to defend our position and explain why we build our amps the way we do, why we use certain componentry etc. 

Every designer will have favourite components they use, and we have chosen ours carefully in our attempts to improve sound quality on a continual basis during the 17 years we have been making amplifiers.

The reasoning behind the major component choices would be a page in itself, and not always obvious to the non technical user. If you want I can explain why comparing power ratings on transistors is like comparing power drills on voltage, and wondering why the $49 Walmart drill doesn't work as well as your buddys DeWalt.

I wonder how many of the guys on this forum would stand back if they were in my shoes. Judging by how robust most responses are I'd have to say not too many..

Gordon


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

autofile said:


> If I am not mistaken, it was the TRU-boys that involved GENESIS in the conversation in the first place, by making a somewhat dubious comparison between the PCB of a TRU amp and the PCB of a GENESIS.
> This was done in a rather obvious attempt on the TRU-boys part to try to show that there are more output devices and parts count, and thus by implication, greater value in the TRU amplifier.
> Even though the TRU-boys failed to mention that the TRU amplifier is a four channel design where as the GENESIS is a 2 channel one. Thus accounting for one of the reasons for a difference in output device count.
> This fact had to be pointed out, after the fact, by other disinterested parties.
> ...


Just to clear some things up. I did not post this thread, nor did I post a belly picture of your Genesis in my review thread. The pics are THERE AT AMPGUTS for everyone to see and discuss as they may as its frequently done on this forum.

"TRUboys" as you say is a bit on the sad part, questioning my integrity-something i take quite serious as I try my best to carefully express my opinions and experiences on this and other forums as a member and enthusiast for many years, before some of you manufacturers slid in here when the members list got bigger to drop what would be disected as clever marketing in you 'Trust Your Ears' comments to everything, thats just about all you post. INstead of the SPIN, how about educating the consumer? Members here love to learn how electronics tick and what separates them fundamentally. They certainly read between the lines and can discuss with the best of them. There are more technical threads on this forum than anywhere in its short existence.

Truth is I saw that TRU was not at CES, and I just happen to email them asking about an update on the Steel line, being the website was dated and pricing information had been released over a year ago and being the NEW Year and all. Heres the funny part to your conspiracy theory, the other TRU boy that you claim found out the Steel were ready in production AFTER I've already posted a review on them here with pics, not to mention the week or so it took me to get the amplifiers 
But hey, the world is out to get YOU!!  

Ok so you are no engineer, I get that. I'm not either, but thats apparent in your argument on that the S44 has more transistors because its a 4 ch. That doesnt make the most sense to me, its a Dual Mono by design, and it couldnt be Twin Stereo if it wasnt a Dual Mono in the first place. Yes its more powerful, designed to make more power. But I feel it all is way over you Genesis boys heads judging by your defensive and undermining responses. 
In a way I can understand, as you wont like what most people say....the same can be said from the other side of the fence.

On this forum VALUE is part of the equation, you should know that by now Peter. The only thing in common that the S44 has with a Genesis Dual Mono is that its a Dual Mono design, made by a high end manufacturer. Thats clear to anyone here with half a brain, I dont think you give the guys here on this forum credit for how smart they are.

On the other hand WHAT YOU HAVE said, as a distributor and manufacturer of a competing brand publicly is a about as harmful and unprofessional as I have seen. Its quite a shame, as I've come to learn before any of this even took place, that the very people at TRU you have attacked, have had the most complimenting attitude and shown the upmost respect for the Genesis product in my conversations with their engineers. Its a shame the feeling is not mutual, and the very reason this industry is headed in the direction its in.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thylantyr said:


> My amplifier load is rated for ~ 35,000 watts.
> http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/load/
> 
> Not because you will drive 35kw, but rather you want a stable load where
> resistance doesn't even move 0.1 ohms.


Holy ****! That's like my old LoadZilla, but I circulated the water and used less elements!

Damn, where did you come from? Pro audio, loadzillas, lets go drink beer!

Chad


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## crazyder (Mar 3, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I agree the thread has unfortunately got a little personal, which I feel is unfortunate.
> 
> However I'd like to state why I posted on it in the first place. If another manufacturer is going to compare their products with mine by disassembling both and making comparisons about component quality, I have a couple of options.
> 
> ...


I have no clue what affiliation 6spdcoupe has with TRU, I had no clue when I saw the pictures of the amp boards what the big difference was, but what I do know is he said


> Now I understand that it is costly nowadays to get something into this country, but is it now possible that the TRU S44 should fairly be *compared* to the double priced DMX?
> 
> Im honestly a fan and supporter of both. But first and foremost is my family and the ability to put food on the table.


...all I got from it was both are good amps of which they can be *compared*, but the TRU can be bought for much cheaper.

From what I read no one was saying Genesis uses poor quality components, it was your first post that you brought all the quality issues into debate by stating how your components are better then TRU.

Maybe as a complete outsider I just don't read into this debate as much as someone who has his head stuck in the sand, but I know both you as a Genesis rep and the TRU reps are having a flaming war all over many forums, and *both companies to me look pathetic*, let your products do the talking and instead of bashing the other why don't you sell me on why you think your product is great.
Cheers


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Hey Gordon-

No one is saying you should lay like a dog and don't do anything, but if companies have to hover in the forums to defend their products in fears they will lose sales amazes me. I'm glad that companies do want our input, that is why they pop up from time to time. I think it can be used as a tool, maybe a little market research, however we are such a small community, the bulk of sales of car audio are not done in forums. But I welcome both of you to DIYMA, stick around.

What's interesting is that the TRU amp resembles a little of what was discussed in a few DIY amp design threads here at DIYMA. I'm not saying TRU took notice of it, but it's interesting none the less. The real questions is, will TRU pass this savings onto us, or are they going to overprice it?

I can respect a companies reason to select the best of the best components, but if the gains are small then some of us don't see real value in it. That does not mean highend does not have it's place in audio or car audio, it's just that the market is very small in your neck of the woods.

I think DON started this thread asking if we thought the market would buy more TRU amps then GENESIS because the cost was less and the gains to be had from the GENESIS might not be what people want.

You mention gain tracking per channel as a good part of your design. I understand that is important, but if we have the ability to measure and adjust this via DSP, it's not something I care to worry about. This is just an example of an added cost I might not need as a consumer. Someone else might find this beneficial it all depends on what our goals are.

I respect both companies for what they are trying to do, but they should be careful about airing their dirty laundry out in the open. This does not mean they shouldn't take part in discussion's. I'd love to read your design philosophy, maybe it will sound better coming from an engineer vs a marketing dept. That is why Steve from ZED, Nelson for PASS Labs, etc etc has quite a following.

/end rant


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

How about people with company affiliations or vested interests in this discussion identify themselves. It's great that the parties involved know who they are, but to read a post and assume it is from a disinterested party only to find out that hidden axes are being ground doesn't cut it on a public forum. If you have money on the line, we have the right to know.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi Crazyder,
Good points, well made.

If you are based in Socal, you can have a listen to John Whitledge's Sprinter van. He's based in San Diego and attends various shows and events.

I haven't heard it in a while, but reports coming back to me are very positive.

Hi Durwood,

I appreciate your constructive comments. 

The post appeared to me to be comparing the amps on part count alone, and that to me isn't about quality.

Our point of difference (from day one) from the many amp brands out there is to have the best sound quality, and we feel this is best achieved using the best parts that we can within the product budget.

Not everyone wants or has the budget for high end, but for those that do I'm happy to explain our design philosophy.


I agree with you that the forums aren't the place for mudslinging, however there is also what I feel is a serious issue where opinion can become folklore and then be interpreted as fact. 

The best example I can show of this was a post on this forum a while back where opinions relayed from a service tech via a forum member assumed some relevance, and an excerpt from this has been quoted in this post.

So we have a situation where a technician (who seems pretty unhappy with life) unloads to a friend, who posts his comments on a forum. They then migrate to other forums and end up going around the world, taking on a life of their own. 

Much as we'd like to think we are logical creatures, any pollster can demonstrate how repeatedly seeing negative comments can influence our decision making process. 

Forums can be a very positive place to spread useful information, however they have the potential to spread rumour and malicious comments which can also be very damaging.

As a result, if I feel a post is being detrimental to my brand I will fight my corner, though I will avoid personal comments and will stick to the facts as I understand them.

If anyone feels I've insulted them personally in my posts, I will be only too happy to apologise.

Gordon


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> How about people with company affiliations or vested interests in this discussion identify themselves. It's great that the parties involved know who they are, but to read a post and assume it is from a disinterested party only to find out that hidden axes are being ground doesn't cut it on a public forum. If you have money on the line, we have the right to know.


4 people that I know of:

6spdcoupe - Genesis dealer and TRU dealer...possible reps one or both in some capacity.
autofile - main US rep/distributor for Genesis
Gordon - As far as I know, he basically is Genesis at least in terms of product design.
3.5max6spd - TRU dealer/user


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## autofile (Oct 25, 2005)

Hi all,

I would like to apologize to everyone on this forum for acting in an unprofessional manner in the course of this discussion. 

I would also like to apologize to those concerned for any statements in my posts that resulted in hurt feelings. They were not meant to do so and I regret my statements having done this.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

> I respect both companies for what they are trying to do, but they should be careful about airing their dirty laundry out in the open. This does not mean they shouldn't take part in discussion's. I'd love to read your design philosophy, maybe it will sound better coming from an engineer vs a marketing dept. That is why Steve from ZED, Nelson for PASS Labs, etc etc has quite a following.


I've read babble by Stephen Mantz, Nelson Pass, John Curl, etc., They have great things to say but if you use
a microscope to look at certain things said, you start to
wonder about them. In other words, those 'elite' folks can
be in the amplifier hall of fame if they *maybe* didn't
say things. 

Of those three I listed;

1. One is a snake oil audio looney, I didn't think so until I read
his ramblings.

2. One is stubborn and has strong opinions as if live
treated him bad, everyone else svcks.

3. One is kicking back relaxed, enjoying life and drinking
wine.

I would say 2 of 3 are selling audiophiles a false dream.

I would say 1 of 3 has a very interesting design, IMO, not
from performance point of view, but maybe a design that
is hard to clone which gives him an edge against amplifier
pirates.

If they never posted, I wouldn't have these weird opinons
about them. They would be a mystery and probably held
in higher status.

Moral of the story. It may not be a good thing when a
designer babbles in public.

 

If the amp guy here keeps this up, he may make the list :hehe:


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Hi Crazyder,
> Good points, well made.
> 
> If you are based in Socal, you can have a listen to John Whitledge's Sprinter van. He's based in San Diego and attends various shows and events.
> ...



Gordon, I take no offense in your postings as I unfortunately did with some others. I respect your product and more so you more than this thread will allow sight of.

Now to reiterate my initial intentions ... this was based Solely on something that I found intriguing. Not being an engineer myself I was looking for some more insight from fellow members. This was never a debate of which performs, looks or even feels better. Just a simple question of " Can a similar performing amplifier be had a such a lower cost?" Although this may be misinterpreted into some feeling the Genesis is higher in cost. Well facts do dictate that due to the currency exchange it is. This is not a reflection or even a accusation of any over inflation in marketing. Just a simple ... I want a 'high end' amplifier that performs well in contrast to others regarded in the same light and still have some coin left at the end of the day. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now to also clarify the use of your amplifier .... Again I (as many others) have utmost respect for it, hence the use of it for an analysis. If I chose a more generic product how would that reflect on the topic? Being that you have exactly what alot of people would love to own made it the perfect candidate.

Gordon, I hope you understand and didnt take this entire thread out of context. If you did, then my sincerest apologies as that was not my intent.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> I agree with you that the forums aren't the place for mudslinging, however there is also what I feel is a serious issue where opinion can become folklore and then be interpreted as fact.


 Are you not guilty of the same with said comments about a competitors product? 

Based on what? What someone spewed on a forum about a company's business practices 4 years ago? Based on what you and Peter have posted the mudslinging has been done BY YOUR COMPANY in this thread, in painting a picture that another company is not trustworthy of the consumer TODAY.




[email protected] said:


> Much as we'd like to think we are logical creatures, any pollster can demonstrate how repeatedly seeing negative comments can influence our decision making process.
> 
> Forums can be a very positive place to spread useful information, however they have the potential to spread rumour and malicious comments which can also be very damaging.


Your party has been guilty here of those same things, no? 




[email protected] said:


> As a result, if I feel a post is being detrimental to my brand I will fight my corner, though I will avoid personal comments and will stick to the facts as I understand them.
> 
> Gordon


But how and when has anything negative been issued against your company in this thread?That you come out defensive, can your product not be compared to another? 
Would it have made any difference had a board shot of a DLS A3 been tossed in? I mean thats a whole other can of worms. There are 2 Dual Mono amps currently in production that could have compared to the S44, and an A3 is a more different high curent animal to even compare to your product.

I mean the obvious route, other than the mudslinging would have been to present a more technical explanation to the members here as to how your product, design is THAT More valuable to a consumer...i mean afterall you are in the business of providing goods to a consumer. Many pages have gone by, yet I see no such information.

I guess my issue with how Genesis has handled themselves in this thread and comments made in talk audio is that instead of responding(or NOT) to friendly competition, you took personal issue at the competing company vs. solidifying the worth of yours with real discussion. Not a very ethical approach.

I believe an apology should be isued, at what looks to be an otherwise sign of overreaction with personal attacks.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi All,
Just so everyone is clear, my position in Genesis is designer, owner and various other hats as required.

Gordon


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

chadillac3 said:


> 4 people that I know of:
> 
> 6spdcoupe - Genesis dealer and TRU dealer...possible reps one or both in some capacity.
> autofile - main US rep/distributor for Genesis
> ...


I am both rep and dealer for TRU. I was at one point rep and/or dealer for Genesis. Unfortunately Peter made the fact publically and painfully clear that our relationship is no longer. I still wish him nothing but the best of luck.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Hey on a plus note...at least everyone here is passionate and emotional. 

If audio was all science, then there is no room for emotions or passion.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> If they never posted, I wouldn't have these weird opinons
> about them. They would be a mystery and probably held
> in higher status.


Tell me what engineer type isn't weird. Engineers are just plain weird, not perfect (although they are looked as if they should be completely perfect), but definitely weird.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

durwood said:


> Hey on a plus note...at least everyone here is passionate and emotional.
> 
> If audio was all science, then there is no room for emotions or passion.


 

But lets be passionate, emotional AND _*professional*_.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

durwood said:


> Tell me what engineer type isn't weird. Engineers are just plain weird, not perfect (although they are looked as if they should be completely perfect), but definitely weird.


Good for you for having the balls to say it  What is striking to me after having extensive conversations with one of the designers listed, is just how un-weird he is in conversation - not at all the way he presents himself through his various writings. I told him and he said: "thank you"  I've never seen anything like it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi 6spdcoupe,
Thanks your post, and for outlining the background behind the original post.
No offense taken by the way, you'd have to try a lot harder than that!

Gordon


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

For the record Gordon, here is a post that I put up a week ago ...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29488

That is Johns van and my respect for it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

3.5max6spd - There's a difference between opinion and fact - and you will find a list of facts in my first post. 

If you'd like proof of the first one for example, compare the SOA and gain curves of a 2SD2390 against a TIP35. 

Both the steady state and particularly the pulsed SOA are superior despite the lower dissipation rating of the Sanken part.

At 40 volts for example the '35 SOA is 1.5 amp vs 2.5 amps for the '2390. 

This voltage is a useful comparison point as the DM uses a 37 volt main rail. 

So at 40 volts the '35 can handle (40 x 1.5) = 60 watts, the '2390 (40 x 2.5=) 100 watts. 

On gain linearity the 35 gain starts dropping significantly over 2 amps, whereas the 2390 the corresponding figure is 10 amps.

Check them out on the Sanken and TI websites if you'd like to confirm.

If you can find anything on my post that isn't true I will be happy to aplogise.

Gordon


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Good for you for having the balls to say it


hehehe, I'm an engineer, We are weird bunch.  I'm not afraid to admit it.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> I've read babble by Stephen Mantz, Nelson Pass, John Curl, etc., They have great things to say but if you use
> a microscope to look at certain things said, you start to
> wonder about them. In other words, those 'elite' folks can
> be in the amplifier hall of fame if they *maybe* didn't
> ...



I haven't read enough of their posts, (not even sure who John Curl is) I'm sure they are all over at DIYA right? I'll take a guess for fun.

1) Nelson Pass
2) Stephen Mantz
3) John Curl


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi 6spdcoupe,
I forgot to say on the previous post, "I promise not to get my panties up in a bunch if you use one of my amps for comparision purposes again".

Gordon


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Nope. Nelson, the father of the Zen amps is kicking back enjoying life. So Papa is number 3.

I'd say John Curl would be the first one.

Mantz is probably number 2.



durwood said:


> I haven't read enough of their posts, (not even sure who John Curl is) I'm sure they are all over at DIYA right? I'll take a guess for fun.
> 
> 1) Nelson Pass
> 2) Stephen Mantz
> 3) John Curl


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Nope. Nelson, the father of the Zen amps is kicking back enjoying life. So Papa is number 3.
> 
> I'd say John Curl would be the first one.
> 
> Mantz is probably number 2.


That was my second guess. I haven't really read enough posts from any of those guys and don't even know who John Curls is. I guess that makes more sense then.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

> So at 40 volts the '35 can handle (40 x 1.5) = 60 watts, the '2390 (40 x 2.5=) 100 watts.


There is no problem with analyzing transistor performance,
but the amplifier performance is the sum of all parts.

An amplifier with poor heatsinking can suffer badly in spite
that it has elite transistors. Eite transistor fail badly when
the rest of the design stinks.

Another famous amplifier designer has a methodology,
nothing new, it's basic electronics. I think all amplifier
designers should follow this method if they want to make
a good product.

Instead of asking your single little transistor to carry
a huge burden of dissipating 60w or even 100w, this
particular designer chooses not to operate the single
transistor at no more than 25w to ensure his design is
bullproof. Designer preference.

I know one thing, if I was making a product, I also
use that methodology, but sometimes proper design
gets in the way of marketing and sales and people that
design/own amplifier companies will never tell the true
tales.

Lets side track and go back to early Zapco years, but
not too early, I don't know what they did in the late
1970's....

Zapco used those TIP35/36's in thier ancient Model 150
and model 200 amplifiers, 150w/200w. I believe it was
eight transistors total in the output stage for the 2 channel
amplifier.

200w amplifier divided by eight TIP power transistors
average out to be about 25w per transistor. This is a good
design, that's why Zapco is famous. Rarely did the
amplifier section blow out.

The failure mode of that amp was when people didn't fuse
the power supply properly. It also used a few TIP35's in
the switcher, IIRC. The power suppy blew up because the
power supply was a seperate chassis with no heatsink fins.
This is fine for a 150w - 200w amp, but the same design
could be tweaked for more performance if they re-chassied,
for better cooling.

I believe Zapco did this and introduced a new amplifier
called Z200. The guts looked like the sum of model 200
into one chassis with good heatsink fins. Because the
heatsinking is better, they can push the amplifier more,
but not too much.

Zapco now is just responding to market demands, people
want more power, etc. It's easy to snag your old design
that is 200w rated, re-chassis, and now sell it as a 275w
amp.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thylantyr said:


> There is no problem with analyzing transistor performance,
> but the amplifier performance is the sum of all parts.
> 
> An amplifier with poor heatsinking can suffer badly in spite
> ...



Dern tootin!

How many times do you hear, this amp sucks because it has TO220 devices but this one rocks because it has TO274's or TO3P, or even the Boner worthy to some TO3?

But they fail to realize that it has a metric ass load of TO220's just loafing along whereas there is ONE larger device per leg and it's being run within an inch of it's life.

Ceases to amaze me.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

chad said:


> Dern tootin!
> 
> How many times do you hear, this amp sucks because it has TO220 devices but this one rocks because it has TO274's or TO3P, or even the Boner worthy to some TO3?
> 
> ...


Thats why i brought that up earlier vs the Sanken 'higher quality' argument . I mean a 100amp power supply with 1,000 watts of output devices....to run 500 rms ....chillin' 

Of course theres more to an amplifiers design than a power supply, but you gotta appreciate when a manufacturer doesnt skimp on it.


----------



## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

Old school = still good school

http://www.accuphase.com/model/pdf/m-8000_e.pdf

In this type of design, Sanken or cheap TIP's, seems like
a moot issue.


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

thylantyr said:


> Old school = still good school
> 
> http://www.accuphase.com/model/pdf/m-8000_e.pdf
> 
> ...


 

Save me that for a good read later, thanks.


----------



## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

AB/X your dinosaur Zapco model 200 with ancient TIP
transistors vs. any modern amplifier that may use more favorable power transistors. 

You know the answer to this


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## dan_f (Feb 6, 2008)

I designed the Tru Steel amplifiers. John offered me the Sanken devices but I turned them down in favor of the TIPs. I found the Sanken devices not to my liking when I auditioned them. Also they are difficult to get. I like to make my stuff repairable and you can buy TIPs almost any place. 


I have had great results over the years with the TIPs. I've been designing amps since the 70s and the TIPS have been solid and reliable performers and I like how they sound.


Dan


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## dan_f (Feb 6, 2008)

durwood said:


> Tell me what engineer type isn't weird. Engineers are just plain weird, not perfect (although they are looked as if they should be completely perfect), but definitely weird.


I agree. We engineers are definitely weird.

I designed the Steel series for TRU and I am right up there. I took over for John Fairchild when he passed away and have been designing amps for over 30 years. I normally do high end pro amps and DSP systems, but this has been an interesting experience.

As for the layout, the dealers and installers said to put all the connections down one side of the amp. And make it shallow so it can fit under a seat. So that's what I did. After all who knows more about what is really needed than the dealers and installers? And oh yes, they said it had to kick butt too.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

durwood said:


> If the tru uses a TIP35/36 pair I'd like to point out that the TRU uses easy to find transistors vs genesis that uses expensive harder to find output transistors.





dan_f said:


> I designed the Tru Steel amplifiers. John offered me the Sanken devices but I turned them down in favor of the TIPs. I found the Sanken devices not to my liking when I auditioned them. Also they are difficult to get. I like to make my stuff repairable and you can buy TIPs almost any place.


 My thoughts exactly. OF course one could argue that if it's designed properly, then it won't need to be repaired, but I've always found, no matter how idiot proof you make something, there is always a bigger idiot and Murphy can strike anytime as well.


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## dan_f (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks for your comment. Since I have done a lot in the pro world, I try to design for ultimate reliability. You don't know how inaccessible some of the places my electronics have had to go. Or the problems a failure could entail. But in spite of that there is always some fool with a bigger hammer. And the environmentalist in me insists I make my stuff both last as long as possible AND if it does fail to make it easy to put back in service. I design so that hopefully my stuff will be the last one of those you will ever have to buy, as long as your basic needs have not changed. I have tons of stuff from the 70s still marching on.

But of course, none of that can be at the price of performance. Because the bottom line here is the music. 

As for the gain curves of the TIP35/36, they may not seem as ideal as the Sanken but do note that they are in a darlington configuration with the driver device and the combination of the two has to be considered. The gain curve of the pair is what is more important. And then I design so the gain curve essentially drops out of the equations anyway. And I stay well within the SOA. I am a fanatic about keeping heat down,Thermal cycles are the enemy to longevity. I design some stuff to operate in Saudi Arabia and I apply the same thermal management to everything I do.

Plus, to help with the Tru claim about US design, the TIPs, while no longer made by Texas Instruments, they were designed by some very nice fellows in Dallas, Texas who I have met at CES. While Sanken make fine products as well, they are Japanese sourced. You have the same problem as I have with AKM A/D and D/A converters. A fine product as well, one of the best, but the US distributor is out of them half the time and lead times push 11 to 26 weeks and then as a smaller customer, supplies get rationed. So I have figured out how to make Cirrus converters, which are 99.5% as good sound just as good. And since I can call up some people at headquarters in Austin if I have a problem in design or even supply, I can solve problems much more readily.

Finally, the assembly of the boards is not done in the Tru office. It is done at an assembly house down the street in the LA area under the supervision of John Yi. And all the parts are bought directly by Tru and taken there. The assembly house is not relied upon to get proper parts. Then at Tru's office, every amp is hand assembled on premises and tested by a nice fellow, Dave Crigna, using a 150 Amp power supply, an Audio Precision and some whopping big load resistors. As well, he listens to each and every amplifier before shipping.

Parts are sourced from US distributors as well, even the Asian made ones. So if we get slipped some bad parts we have a real live person who speaks English we can take the issue to. Like military production, it is an issue of traceability. It makes for responsibility.

Dan


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

dan_f said:


> Thanks for your comment. Since I have done a lot in the pro world, I try to design for ultimate reliability. You don't know how inaccessible some of the places my electronics have had to go. Or the problems a failure could entail. But in spite of that there is always some fool with a bigger hammer. And the environmentalist in me insists I make my stuff both last as long as possible AND if it does fail to make it easy to put back in service. I design so that hopefully my stuff will be the last one of those you will ever have to buy, as long as your basic needs have not changed. I have tons of stuff from the 70s still marching on.


I'm one of the asses that drags your amps thru hell and back  But I also am one of the poor saps that has to repair them. :blush: 

Good to have you here! What amps are your design, or what company? If you don't want to divulge that info to the public you can PM me or you don't want to divulge it at all then tell me to buzz off 

Chad


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Practical amp/electronic circuit design. I love it. The company I work for is German, we build some amazing things and most is done inhouse, but when it comes to finding replacement parts to keep the test benches going, what a PITA! I like it when you can use off-the-shelf parts and still acheive the desired goal.

As much as I like the hand built idea, my wallet does not. Are the boards at least partly assembled on a line at the facility in LA? Sorry for the probing questions.


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

actually this thread serves to show that there are *reasons* behind each amplifier designs. and it goes to show not necessary more components on the pcb = better or otherwise. each designer, be it from TRU or Genesis have their own valid points and reasons for their own designs. eye opening indeed. keep it up. 

3.5max6spd, I didn't notice Gordon comment on TRU's product at all, he just made comparisons on the component level, he did not say anything about the TRU amps as far as its design and construction is concerned, only comparison on the parts used. likewise i didn't see anyone from TRU commenting on Genesis amps, and only talking about components.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

avaxis said:


> actually this thread serves to show that there are *reasons* behind each amplifier designs. and it goes to show not necessary more components on the pcb = better or otherwise. each designer, be it from TRU or Genesis have their own valid points and reasons for their own designs. eye opening indeed. keep it up.
> 
> 3.5max6spd, I didn't notice Gordon comment on TRU's product at all, he just made comparisons on the component level, he did not say anything about the TRU amps as far as its design and construction is concerned, only comparison on the parts used. likewise i didn't see anyone from TRU commenting on Genesis amps, and only talking about components.


Going back, I realize this. And I owe Gordon an apology and appreciate how he has responded, perhaps looking too much into comments he made in TA UK forums. I was most taken back in this thread by Peter's claims and conspiracy theory, I'm sorry they were simply uncalled for in the first place when not one negative thing was being said personally concerning their character nor their product. This is a caraudio forum, with members in the caraudio community and their product simply in not untouchable to the process of comparison and debate. Its what we all do.


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## SQHEAD (Mar 15, 2005)

dan_f said:


> Finally, the assembly of the boards is not done in the Tru office. It is done at an assembly house down the street in the LA area under the supervision of John Yi. And all the parts are bought directly by Tru and taken there. The assembly house is not relied upon to get proper parts. Then at Tru's office, every amp is hand assembled on premises and tested by a nice fellow, Dave Crigna, using a 150 Amp power supply, an Audio Precision and some whopping big load resistors. As well, he listens to each and every amplifier before shipping.
> 
> Parts are sourced from US distributors as well, even the Asian made ones. So if we get slipped some bad parts we have a real live person who speaks English we can take the issue to. Like military production, it is an issue of traceability. It makes for responsibility.
> 
> Dan


Ok you were pretty close Dan. It is a behemoth 0-40Volt 250Amp Supply. Though I would love to listen to each amp before shipping, I just do not have the physical time to do this. I do need some sleep now and again even though John may try to tell me different. 

But what we do though is pull about 10% of the amplifiers that I have already checked and we do a second round of checks which includes a listening test as well. We really strive to make sure that not even one amplifier will arrive D.O.A. God knows how much I hate that personally as a consumer. Of course an Evil gremlin can rear its head every once in awhile but dealing with electronics, and that just comes with the territory.

Just to be clear, The board house just stuffs the boards and solders them for us. There is no way we are going to fit a wave solder machine in what I like to call the "Dungeon". If we ever do, then my bench will have to be moved outside All QC, all testing, parts sourcing, parts counting, parts storage, etc, like Dan has said is done in house.


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