# IB in a wall?



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Was just sitting around earlier and this crossed my mind. I'm sure someone has done this, but didn't have much luck in a search.

Wondering what kind of results one would get by going IB in the walls of a theater room. My thinking is to use 2 15" drivers and place them facing the 'audience', built directly into the wall. 
Maybe take a 1" baffle, attach it to the drywall on the backside, and have a square cut out of the drywall. Then have grill cloth over that square cutout to conceal the drivers. 

Seems like it would be an awesome setup.


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## Amish (Oct 2, 2006)

That works. It's an "array" style IB compared to a manifold IB where a box is attached to the studs, hole cut out between the studs and drivers attached to the box. Hope that makes sense. Only issue with array IBs is that you start throwing around a lot of mass on a large, flat surface. Sometimes that causes flex, whereas when you use a manifold you can mount the drivers facing each other and cancel the forces out. I own a cape-style house and the 2nd floor has angled ceilings/walls on the top and short (~3ft) vertical walls on the bottom. If I was to do an IB setup I'd most likely run the array as the short walls would be less likely to flex.


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

Will you finish your car first. 
j/k
Some guys on Team Hybrids are doing IB with HAT speakers in home theaters.
I don't see why it won't work.

Jorge.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Wow, I think I actually understood what you meant. 

Right, the shorter the distance, the less potential for flex you have, so I see what you're saying. I'd be doing the theater on a 2nd floor so I wouldn't be able to have a hanging manifold setup, which is something I have seen done one first floor/basement setups.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

doitor said:


> Will you finish your car first.
> j/k
> Some guys on Team Hybrids are doing IB with HAT speakers in home theaters.
> I don't see why it won't work.
> ...


I couldn't see why it wouldn't, but am just interested to hear from someone who's done this.

Like was said above, flex might be an issue. Walls may have to be reinforced. 100db+ @ 20hz would probably be strenuous on dry wall. 


My car will NEVER be finished.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/

Home IB fanatics.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

more studs and hardibacker?


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## Sideshow (Mar 6, 2007)

I would do it somewhere where the drivers would have more than just the total wall cavity of one stud bay as the airspace. Doesn't seem like nearly enough for 2 IB 15's. I put single 10" IB subs into my clients' systems all the time, and an average bay seems about right for that. I don't know about 15's. I would really recommend you fire the two subs into a box that is vented into your listening area, and have the box be under the floor, or in a connected attic area or something. Maybe I misunderstood your post, though...


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## jj_diamond (Oct 3, 2007)

IB ceiling subs FTW!


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## Amish (Oct 2, 2006)

Sideshow brought up a good point - how much volume you got on the back side of the drivers Bikin?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

http://www.garagehobbies.com/ib.aspx?Section=Install


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

Usually the average HT guy will do four 15" IB using the
manifold [or not], this is considered entry level because it's
very easy to overdrive the woofers to it's mechanical limits, 
hence these typical IB installs may only need 
~200w per woofer. This is easy to model, get WinISD and
just model a *huge* sealed box and you can see the
SPL vs. excursion and note the power requirements.

That's why they use more woofers in an IB install, to boost
the SPL level back up. The serious folks will use 8 - 16 woofers IB.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> Usually the average HT guy will do four 15" IB using the
> manifold [or not], this is considered entry level because it's
> very easy to overdrive the woofers to it's mechanical limits,
> hence these typical IB installs may only need
> ...


8-16 is crazy!

I was thinking 2 15"s would be plenty.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> 8-16 is crazy!
> 
> I was thinking 2 15"s would be plenty.


You can model it and see if you have the performance you
want, perhaps compare it to a sealed or ported design
using the same two woofers. WinISD tells a tale. You may
find the IB design anemic with only 2 woofers vs. lets say
a EBS sub design.

This lady was in process of installing [12 -16] 18" woofers
for her IB install, not to mention the other 20 15" woofers
for midbass and large horns.   

Because she was female, the men on the AVS forum mocked her
plan and she left, so the work log was deleted.  

http://www.createforum.com/petereuro/viewtopic.php?t=328&mforum=petereuro


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

thylantyr said:


> You can model it and see if you have the performance you
> want, perhaps compare it to a sealed or ported design
> using the same two woofers. WinISD tells a tale. You may
> find the IB design anemic with only 2 woofers vs. lets say
> ...



Wow, what a thread. I would have loved to have seen how her set up eventually turned out. It's unfortunate that people cannot act civil towards one another even though they disagree.


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## scott_fx (Mar 31, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> 8-16 is crazy!
> 
> I was thinking 2 15"s would be plenty.


I used two datyon 15's built into my fireplace hearth and it has no problem keeping up with the rest of my system with my amp at 1/4-1/3 volume. 

They system consists of two def tech bp-10 towers, a temp polk audio center and dayton 8" surrounds.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I too used 2 IB15's and they did well, BUT I had neighbors, now that I dont...... well...... I'd go with at least 4. And thinking of doing that soon in the garage/shop of all places, in fact I have some ideas, dunno if I should toss them out here or start a new thread.....


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

1 x 12" i.b in my 24x18 foot tv room is EASILY enough for any movie watching and music enjoyment.

if someone wants to spend $10,000+ to impress their friends when the low lows on some movie makes them say 'oh my goodness', i pity them.

after all, its just a movie right?

and we just want some low lows now and again......


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

here's a question for y'all to ponder,

can a certain 12" driver in the right box, good eqing and amp, produce exactly the same sound as 4 x 15s? 

AT TYPICAL LISTENING LEVELS.

after experimenting with subs for over 15 years id say yes.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> here's a question for y'all to ponder,
> 
> can a certain 12" driver in the right box, good eqing and amp, produce exactly the same sound as 4 x 15s?
> 
> ...


It depends on your listening habits, enclosure placement, room size, and above all the ability to resist the temptation of the right hand side of the Big Knob


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> It depends on your listening habits, enclosure placement, room size, and above all the ability to resist the temptation of the right hand side of the Big Knob


just say yes you pansy, you know im right.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> just say yes you pansy, you know im right.


I would shread the ****er and blow up the amp in the process.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> I would shread the ****er and blow up the amp in the process.


but you agree that until things started to fail, the sound 'could' be equal?

i aslo hope you 'know better' then to blow up equipment.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> but you agree that until things started to fail, the sound 'could' be equal?


Oh absolutely, look at the bag-end stuff, insanely small enclosure with EQ, sure it works, if not better than many other designs, till you quickly run out of power from the amount of boosting going on.



60ndown said:


> i aslo hope you 'know better' then to blow up equipment.



I don't think I "know better" than to not blow things up, more than I know my habits in certain situations and that overbuilding is never a bad idea


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Oh absolutely, look at the bag-end stuff, insanely small enclosure with EQ, sure it works, if not better than many other designs, till you quickly run out of power from the amount of boosting going on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1.power is cheap, no need to ever run out nowdays

2.trust your ears.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

me likey

8hz and 92 db efficiency on a 2 x 10 submoofa.

D10E-I

http://www.bagend.com/


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> 1.power is cheap, no need to ever run out nowdays
> 
> 2.trust your ears.


Yeah but with integrated designs the boosts are so big that the driver can die of thermal failure quite easily.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

might have to get 1 for the van 

http://www.audiolines.com/BAG-END-D10E-I-p-17500.html


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

you got me all excited now, never heard of bag end b4?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bag-End-INFRASU...oryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

It's cool stuff, but when I tried them live I HATED them because I ran out of power too quick, THEN their integrators do not have a HPF to use to uh, maybe maximize your power, Like I REALLY need 8Hz for a rock band, get me to 30 and loud, and I'm giddy.

Tried them in the studio and fell in love, if you aren't going to get loud they are perfect, if you are going for volume the laws of physics still apply, you can't fight them 

BUT for a home, if done right IB is the next best thing IMHO, can be invisible, go low, and are more efficinet. Drawback is that you kinda need a attic or basement/crawlspace, or a room you don't mind loading wtih low end  I have none of that in my current situation, but my garage has normal construction and I'm itching to try it this summer.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

You know how they work right?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> It's cool stuff, but when I tried them live I HATED them because I ran out of power too quick, THEN their integrators do not have a HPF to use to uh, maybe maximize your power, Like I REALLY need 8Hz for a rock band, get me to 30 and loud, and I'm giddy.
> 
> Tried them in the studio and fell in love, if you aren't going to get loud they are perfect, if you are going for volume the laws of physics still apply, you can't fight them
> 
> BUT for a home, if done right IB is the next best thing IMHO, can be invisible, go low, and are more efficinet. Drawback is that you kinda need a attic or basement/crawlspace, or a room you don't mind loading wtih low end  I have none of that in my current situation, but my garage has normal construction and I'm itching to try it this summer.


best live show i ever saw wasn't loud, but the sq was amazing.

i.b at home is easy, get a sub designed for a small box (diyma 12) and put it in a large enclosure to acheive 5 x the vas = ht sub and i.b. (youve seen my thread)


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> You know how they work right?


i guessing the cone moves backwards and forwards.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

60ndown said:


> you got me all excited now, never heard of bag end b4?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Bag-End-INFRASU...oryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I love mine:

http://www.bagend.com/infrasub18.htm


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> I love mine:
> 
> http://www.bagend.com/infrasub18.htm


nice,

In summary, Bag End moves to the consumer arena with their ELF designs in the INFRASUB-18. The sound quality is rather unique. If time alignment at all low frequencies, rather than high SPL, is your thing, this is definitely worth auditioning.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/bagend18.html


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

very nice

The room response is relatively flat below 63 Hz, just as Bag End says, and is down only 7 dB at 10 Hz from what it was at 25 Hz for the nearfield test. The reason Bag End makes the sub respond to 8 Hz is to keep the 20 Hz region (which is audible to human ears) flat.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

60ndown said:


> nice,
> 
> In summary, Bag End moves to the consumer arena with their ELF designs in the INFRASUB-18. The sound quality is rather unique. If time alignment at all low frequencies, rather than high SPL, is your thing, this is definitely worth auditioning.
> 
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/bagend18.html



Compare those SPL scores to this. 
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...010-standard-compilation-new-information.html

I think the tests done above were ground plane tests, 2 meter
the bag end is in-room, 1m [bigger scores than a ground
[plane test].


--> Subwoofer - December, 1997 

Obsolete [neener]


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

Bag End design team


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> Compare those SPL scores to this.
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...010-standard-compilation-new-information.html
> 
> I think the tests done above were ground plane tests, 2 meter
> ...


straight talk please,


graphs/lists and cryptic talk mean little to me.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

I believe he is showing us that the output of the Infrasub is less than many of the subs tested however I didn't think that was in dispute. Yes it was released over 10 years ago so perhaps it is considered "obsolete". 

If I am listening to music, I use the Infrasub 18. If I am watching movies I use a different old sub, an Infinity HPS-1000 which is probably also be considered "obsolete". 

Since, according to the test results, this appears to perform rather well in a 270L vented enclosure, perhaps it is time to build an enclosure for it instead of using the Bag End and Infinity subs.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> best live show i ever saw wasn't loud, but the sq was amazing.


Even with a Funk band (that were fidelity nuts) at a corporate event (low volume) I found myself running out of power when I would normally have PLENTY. 

Power may be cheap and you can buy tons of it but next comes gettin said power from the wall or finding the nearest breaker box for a distro tie-in, not pretty  Big power amps don't do **** if you can't get the power TO them 



60ndown said:


> i guessing the cone moves backwards and forwards.



Simple non techno explanation, (60ndown filter ON)...

A small sealed box has a high resonance and a PREDICTABLE roll-off, predictable is important!

Since it's predictable and smooth you can add a simple EQ to counteract this, bingo flat response, but at a cost. This EQ is more radical the lower you go, this requires tons of power to the coil, increasing the risk of thermal damage, power compression, etc.

Stick with your DIYMA "IB" if it's not enough get another  Knowing your tendencies and your praise for this driver I'm REALLY itching to try one out, may have to shake the piggy bank soon....


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ClinesSelect said:


>



Wow Seksy!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Even with a Funk band (that were fidelity nuts) at a corporate event (low volume) I found myself running out of power when I would normally have PLENTY.
> 
> Power may be cheap and you can buy tons of it but next comes gettin said power from the wall or finding the nearest breaker box for a distro tie-in, not pretty  Big power amps don't do **** if you can't get the power TO them
> 
> ...


1.i can see teh problem using 7000 rms on a single outlet thankfully my 200watt plate amp is a lil less demanding.

2.im still confused about driver/box combination, ive built maybe 20-30 different subwofers over the last 15 years, sealed, ported, horn, bandpass and i.b. i built exactly to plans with recc drivers and all of them performed very well.if the correct driver /box combo is used in the correct enviroment, quality bass will be realised. ime.

3.my i.b diyma is plenty for watching a movie or listening to some music while i wash dishes.i have however made it reach its mechaical limit (clunk) in the van a few times :blushno damage to cone thankfully) and had a mild heart attack as a result, however this was when i has the ssf 'off' and was enjoying any information below 30hz.(ssf is now on) weird thing is (and i wanted to ask you about this) the diyma can pump out modern rap, hip hop, sine waves etc with serious authority and great volume without issue, but when i put on 70s rock (steely dan, doobie brothers, bad company etc) it bottomed out? im guessing its smething to do with modern/ancient recording techniques?)

not sure the diyma is the driver for you if you cant help turning everything up to 11 

maybe np will do you a deal on 20 of them


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> I believe he is showing us that the output of the Infrasub is less than many of the subs tested however I didn't think that was in dispute. Yes it was released over 10 years ago so perhaps it is considered "obsolete".
> 
> If I am listening to music, I use the Infrasub 18. If I am watching movies I use a different old sub, an Infinity HPS-1000 which is probably also be considered "obsolete".
> 
> Since, according to the test results, this appears to perform rather well in a 270L vented enclosure, perhaps it is time to build an enclosure for it instead of using the Bag End and Infinity subs.


looking at that kitchen contertop, and that sub, and learnig that you have the sub and have not built a box for it, im guessing you have too much monies, and should send that sub to me, i will have it in a box and wanging 2 hours after it arrives.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> 2.im still confused about driver/box combination, ive built maybe 20-30 different subwofers over the last 15 years, sealed, ported, horn, bandpass and i.b. i built exactly to plans with recc drivers and all of them performed very well.if the correct driver /box combo is used in the correct enviroment, quality bass will be realised. ime.


You sir have discovered the trick, build to suit the driver, not buy an arbitrary driver and then think you can fudge it to fit 



60ndown said:


> weird thing is (and i wanted to ask you about this) the diyma can pump out modern rap, hip hop, sine waves etc with serious authority and great volume without issue, but when i put on 70s rock (steely dan, doobie brothers, bad company etc) it bottomed out? im guessing its smething to do with modern/ancient recording techniques?)


Remember how I said I was running out of power quick with the Bag-End rig? Same thing.

Modern recordings are squeezed to death, they have the hell limited out of them and smashed to the hilt, they are loud and have little dynamics. Whereas Steely Dan, is a close second to the opposite, it's VERY dynamic and the average level is much "quieter." Note the position of the volume control for the desired level, you would not DARE do that with a hip-hop recording would you? But remember that Steely Dan is going to hit 0DbFS (the end of the road, all bits used up, the highest you can go on a CD)just like any other recording, just not as often, not nearly as often. You may also note that it's the quickest hitting, most dynamic kick you have heard in there. Welcome to true SQ  Good music for it! Live is the same, on MY end of the spectrum we don't like the squeezy-squeezy thing. My kick drum can go from poppy, kinda hip hop, to an all out assault attack via a 4X4 treated fence post along your chest. We don't limit at the end, only at the crossover to prevent BLATANT clippinng (I don't mind a few red flickers on the amps live at the loudest point, means you are using ALL of them.)

Knowing that, and your expierience in the van gives you the answer as to why I ragged on the Bag-ends in a live situation.



60ndown said:


> not sure the diyma is the driver for you if you cant help turning everything up to 11
> 
> maybe np will do you a deal on 20 of them


Well, I'm not as bad as I make myself out to be, but when I *do* lay into it I have big expectations, you know what I did for a living, I'm looking for that


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## rickf325 (Apr 9, 2008)

I was actually thinking of doing an IB in a wall. I have a killer situation:

Wall of the media room backs to a huge open attic, and the media room walls are super well insulated.

My question is whether someone makes a good IB 15" or so that has a 16" SQUARE mounting bezel? If so, I could really easily rip off the sheetrock, jam a bunch of 15"'s into my wall, screw them into the studs directly (at 16" centers" with no manifold or other wood working), wire it up, and have lots and lots of low end bass....

Thoughts?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

rickf325 said:


> Thoughts?


mdf baffle.


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## rickf325 (Apr 9, 2008)

60ndown said:


> mdf baffle.


It does seem like MDF baffle is the way to go. Now I am just trying to figure out if i'd rather go through the trouble of building a manifold and actually having my speakers aimed at each other--seems like there will be less wall stress and flex that way.

Anwyays, thanks for the thoughts.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

The manifold is just is great way to maximize driver cone surface area while retaining a small hole in the room entry, I don't think it has to do with stresses or sound as much as aesthetics.


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## Pseudonym (Apr 17, 2006)

sadly it still looks like this but goddamn does it still sound amazing. power comes by way of a behringer ep1500. subs are rl-p 15's.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Since I can't do IB in the house I may do it in the shop/garage and try to kill 2 birds with one stone, here's how. The shop and garage are seperated by a wall. I currently have the garage speakers wired with the polarity reversed, because they both back up to the same wall and face opposite directions. Soooo, if I mounted an IB rig on that wall seperating them I can still have low-end in both places! My only concern now wtih this as opoosed to doing an attic mount for the shop only is the occasional 2AM wanging of the volume control, but hell, I could just turn the subs off for that right? Yeah Riiiggghhhttt


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I had a manifold in my last house with 2 Dayton IB15's I dug it


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Re: IB in a wall?

No in a milk carton. gggyreahhh


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