# 2018 BMW SQ Build



## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

So, about a week ago, I posted that I traded-in my Audi for a new car. BMW 440i Gran Coupe.

It's a magnificent vehicle. 
It's not the fastest car I've ever driven (although it's ridiculously fast). It's not the most expensive vehicle I've ever driven.
But, I would argue that it might be the _'best driving'_ vehicle I've ever been behind the wheel of. 









I started ripping it apart, within a few days of ownership. Most of the equipment was used, from my previous build. 

The intent, as with all my builds, was:
1. Sound Quality.
2. Stealth Build - using factory locations.
3. Don't lose any trunk space. This is a daily driver, and I have 2 kids.

Unfortunately, as with all of my projects, I got busy with the build, and didn't take very many pictures.

I used my Sinfoni Tempo 10 tweeters in the front doors. Had to modify the inside bracket to mount the tweeters.









The doors all have 4.5" drivers in them. Scan-Speak 11M for the front, and Scan-Speak 12M for the rear.
The Scans are amazing. I needed a speaker that could play down to 200Hz, and they do it effortlessly.









My only concern was the hideous gold trim on the speakers, but the doorskin took care of that.









Didn't take any pictures of the 8" underseat woofers, but they were a drop-in replacement for the stock speakers. 
I used Jehnert XE200's, under the advice of Musicar N.W. 
*Huge shoutout to Musicar N.W.* They have a lot of experience with BMW builds, and I'd recommend them 100%.

As above, I didn't take any pictures of the rear doors, but they have Scan D2004 tweeters, and Scan 12M drivers in them. 
The 12M's blend perfectly with the D2004 tweeter.

I used my mObridge DA3, to tap into the car's fiber optic system. I just use it as pass-through into my Helix DSP-Pro II. 
The Helix DSP is the real star of the show. It controls all 10 active speakers, except the sub.
Because the Helix only has 10 channels, I used one of the DSP channels on the mObridge to control the sub. Works perfectly. 

I built a 2 tier amp rack, and mounted both the mObridge and the Helix under the amplifiers.
The USB cable for the DSP tuning is coiled-up on the right hand side of the amps. 

I used both of my MMATS HiFi-6150 amps for this build.
The first amp runs the active 3-way front stage. 
The second amp runs the active 2-way rear doors, and then Channels 5&6 are bridged to run the sub.









The sub is an Audiofrog GB10, running at 4ohm. 
I was challenged to find a good (stealth) location for it... and voila, look at this cavernous space at the rear of the trunk! (that's the car battery at the bottom)









Again, didn't take any pictures of the build, but I made a fiberglass mold of the stock piece that fits in there, then used that to build a stealth sub enclosure. 
3 layers of fiberglass mounted onto a 3/4" MDF front, and then carpeted.









Here's the trunk, with the cargo box in it. I didn't lose an inch of luggage space.









Took about 30 hours total to do the build, then another 4 hours to tune it. 
Overall, I'm very pleased with how it turned-out. 

I'm always impressed with how the Helix DSP can take a good sounding system, and make it a phenominal sounding system. 
As mentioned above; it's the star of the show.

2nd place goes to the Scan-Speak 11M drivers. If you can get past the gold trim (or just paint it), they are amazing! 
Perfect sound reproduction from 200Hz to 4500Hz.

3rd Place goes to the MMATS amplifiers... 
I don't think I'll ever go back to Class A/B again, after using these amps. They are that good.


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## Jlugo360 (Mar 6, 2017)

Wow That’s nice!


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

Love the Gran Coupe. One of my favorite BMW models ever!


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

What are you crossing your jehnerts at? I haven't quite found a sweet spot for mine. Thanks!

That's a beautiful set up by the way!

Also, doesn't the helix have 10 output channels? How are you running all active as well as the sub output?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tranv9565 said:


> What are you crossing your jehnerts at? I haven't quite found a sweet spot for mine.


80Hz to 200Hz



tranv9565 said:


> That's a beautiful set up by the way!


Thanks.



tranv9565 said:


> Also, doesn't the helix have 10 output channels? How are you running all active as well as the sub output?


I'm using a channel from the mObridge DA3 to control the sub.


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## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

Man, that was fast!


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

mbradlawrence said:


> Man, that was fast!


That's what she said...


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Love it. Wish I could own a car but my work requires a truck. Still sounds phenomenal but man trunks are so fun.


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## SilentWrath (May 23, 2017)

Very nice! 34 hours well spent!


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

looks nice, which audi did you have, i just bought a rs7, steve is starting the build in about 2 weeks


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Porsche said:


> looks nice, which audi did you have, i just bought a rs7, steve is starting the build in about 2 weeks


I had an SQ5. Prior to that, I had an S4.


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## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

Do you get a big fall off at 450 hz? I think it’s a null in our body style (or an oddity of my da3).


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

jimmydee said:


> So, about a week ago, I posted that I traded-in my Audi for a new car. BMW 440i Gran Coupe.
> 
> 
> The intent, as with all my builds, was:
> ...


How big is the back seat? Comparable to the SQ5?

I've been eyeballing the 4 series gran coupes, they look great and seem very functional for this that don't want an SUV or wagon. I like the idea of having the hatchback too.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

EmptyKim said:


> How big is the back seat? Comparable to the SQ5?
> 
> I've been eyeballing the 4 series gran coupes, they look great and seem very functional for this that don't want an SUV or wagon. I like the idea of having the hatchback too.


The back seat is comparable to the SQ5. Although, the Audi had a bit more headroom in the rear...


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

mbradlawrence said:


> Do you get a big fall off at 450 hz? I think it’s a null in our body style (or an oddity of my da3).


Yes, 450Hz is a 'dead zone' in our cars. I have it too.
I had a big dip at around 600Hz in my Audi.

Do your best to tune it out.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Great install and nice components. I am about to order the 6150 myself and have a quick stupid question for you. Due to how I want to mount it the logo would be upside down. I see you flipped one of yours. Is the cover flipable or was there more to it than that?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

LaserSVT said:


> Is the cover flipable or was there more to it than that?


The cover is flipable. 
The only additional thing you need to do is; there are a couple foam pads mounted underneath, which hold components (capacitors if I recall) in place.
You need to remove those foam pads and reposition them to the other side, so they realign above the caps.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Small update (haven't posted in a while):

I removed the Scan 11M's from the front doors, and moved them to the rear doors.
I also made new mounting rings for all four door speakers, using 1/2" HDPE. 
I installed Esotar 430 speakers into the front doors.

Holy crap... are the Esotars ever detailed! 
An amazing speaker. Expensive as heck, but worth every penny.


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

Youre saying that the 430s are that big of a jump up from the 11Ms? Im surprised there was so much more left on the table.


What exactly did you have to modify to get the tweeters to fit? Isnt the sail panel just a molded plastic hole into which the stock tweeter clips? Or are you saying the sinfoni was larger and you had to bore it out or rig up a fastener?


Also, how did musicar help? If you did all the work yourself did they consult on which bits to use? For free?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

theobjectivist said:


> Youre saying that the 430s are that big of a jump up from the 11Ms? Im surprised there was so much more left on the table.


Here's the skinny; The Esotars are twice the price of the Scans... but they aren't twice as good. 
With that said, they are very noticeably better sounding. Way more detailed. Seemingly effortless, at any volume. 
They aren't for everyone... but totally worth it for me.



theobjectivist said:


> What exactly did you have to modify to get the tweeters to fit? Isnt the sail panel just a molded plastic hole into which the stock tweeter clips? Or are you saying the sinfoni was larger and you had to bore it out or rig up a fastener?


The Sinfoni tweeters are bigger than the stock ones. I had to cut the back of the sail, and bore the hole a bit.



theobjectivist said:


> Also, how did musicar help? If you did all the work yourself did they consult on which bits to use? For free?


Not sure where you're going with this question... but; Musicar mainly helped with free advice. The only thing I bought from them was the Jehnert underseat speakers.
I was struggling with the OEM MOST connector on the BMW, and they told me exactly how to remove it and where to source the adapter piece to make it fit into the mObridge.
They also gave me advice on how to build the sub enclosure, and how to run the speaker cables through the Molex plugs.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

They look beautiful! I’m going to be drooling over them until my next car. ?


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

jimmydee said:


> Here's the skinny; The Esotars are twice the price of the Scans... but they aren't twice as good.
> With that said, they are very noticeably better sounding. Way more detailed. Seemingly effortless, at any volume.
> They aren't for everyone... but totally worth it for me.
> 
> ...




Nice - so there was plenty of room for the tweeters after you bored it out? I looked at sinfoni's website and couldnt find the physical dimensions. 

Im going to do a BMW install as soon as zapco releases their new DSP so im studying what others have done and am interested in what tweets actually fit 



Thats concerning that the 430s are "way more detailed" because ive looked at the 11Ms and theyre supposed to be fantastic thus i was going that direction. The fact that these dyns are much better..sighh. Im one of "those" types that wants the best or im unhappy. I just dont know if I could look at myself in the mirror after spending that much on two drivers.

One bit to note: the dyns handle far more power than the scans. Maybe thats what youre experiencing? Did you ever consider the audioforg GB40s? They too can handle tremendous power



As far as musicar, i was wondering if they'd freely offered advice on your install. I wanted to get info on my install but didnt think theyd help without me purchasing the gear


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

theobjectivist said:


> Thats concerning that the 430s are "way more detailed" because ive looked at the 11Ms and theyre supposed to be fantastic thus i was going that direction. The fact that these dyns are much better..sighh. Im one of "those" types that wants the best or im unhappy. I just dont know if I could look at myself in the mirror after spending that much on two drivers.


If it makes you feel any better, the 12m’s and the 12mu’s are quite comparable minus some THD improvements in the very low mid range. Some say the 12m’s are better dedicated mids than the 12mu’s. And those 12mu’s are used in some extremely expensive home hi-fI speakers ($100k+) so id say they’re quite good. I just think the e430’s are probably the pinnacle of auto mids at the moment. I’ll have to wait for my next car to splurge on a set, but I’ll try them then.

I have another set of 12m’s on the way because the 12m’s that came from Jim’s car suffered a tragic shipping-related fatality on their way to me. But the one which survived that I sampled was very impressive. Impressive enough to get me to immediately buy a new set. 

If you’ve had a chance to hear the D3004/6020 silk domes, the 12m’s are kind of the “midrange equivalent” of that tweeter. Extremely natural, smooth, detailed (but in a natural way), and very transparent with a natural roll off and natural timbre. I think I said natural enough times. 

I have other mids that are more detailed at the expense of less neutrality and less natural timbre (NZ3 AlBe’s). Granted my other mids are 2.5-3.5” mids, not 4’s. Not having heard the e430’s myself, my dream for them would be all of the positive characteristics of the 12m’s plus the detail of a harder coned driver, while mitigating the downsides associated with harder cones. I think Jim can chime in on whether I’m on the right track or not with that thought.


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## lbp775 (Jul 7, 2011)

That's a very nice install. 

Out of curiosity how did you measure the distance for delay for the underseats? Where do you have them crossed at? I'm also using Jehnerts and through several months of tweaking I can't seem to get this system to sound the way I want.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

lbp775 said:


> Out of curiosity how did you measure the distance for delay for the underseats?


I just put a tape measure from the driver's headrest to the floor. I wasn't gonna get too concerned about how precise it was. 
In my opinion; the whole idea of firing a midbass up into the underside of the seat is a bad design (from an audio SQ perspective). 
So precise time delay was the least of my concerns on this set of drivers. 



lbp775 said:


> Where do you have them crossed at? I'm also using Jehnerts and through several months of tweaking I can't seem to get this system to sound the way I want.


I have mine crossed from 80Hz to 220Hz. After a bit of testing, I found this seemed to be the range that these could effectively handle, and still sound good.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

GreatLaBroski said:


> If you’ve had a chance to hear the D3004/6020 silk domes, the 12m’s are kind of the “midrange equivalent” of that tweeter.


The Scan D3004 is probably the best 'bang for the buck' tweeter out there. It's also a bit large to fit into the front sail panel...

However, I do have it's 3/4" little brother (the Scan D2004) installed in my rear doors.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

theobjectivist said:


> Nice - so there was plenty of room for the tweeters after you bored it out? I looked at sinfoni's website and couldnt find the physical dimensions.


No... there isn't plenty of room. 
If you were willing to grind off the aluminum bezel on the Sinfoni tweeter, then it would almost be a drop-in fit. I left the bezel alone, and just cut the plastic housing in the sail panel. 
It fits in there... but it's a tight fit. Worth it though, as it's an amazing tweeter. I believe it's the best sounding small format tweeter available.
I'd almost argue that it's the best sounding tweeter available... period.



theobjectivist said:


> Im going to do a BMW install as soon as zapco releases their new DSP


Those Zapco DSP's look very promising. If I was going to start from scratch, it's probably what I'd use too. The 16 channel version.
As it sits right now, I am using-up 11 channels. Which is one more than the Helix has.
Fortunately, the mObridge DA3 has a built-in 8 channel DSP, so I am using one of its channels, for the sub.
I think Andy is still a few years away from release... but my next DSP will be the Audiofrog unit. 



theobjectivist said:


> Thats concerning that the 430s are "way more detailed" because ive looked at the 11Ms and theyre supposed to be fantastic thus i was going that direction. The fact that these dyns are much better..sighh. Im one of "those" types that wants the best or im unhappy. I just dont know if I could look at myself in the mirror after spending that much on two drivers.


The Esotars are in a different league... from everything.
As I mentioned; they are twice the price, but don't sound twice as good. However, they do sound NOTICABLY better. Maybe 30% better.
They aren't for everyone... but absolutely worth it for me. Now, I never wonder; _"what if..."_
If I were going to rate second place, I would give it to the Scans and also the Audiofrog GB40. 2A and 2B.
The Scans are more detailed and precise. The GB40's have more low-end punch and power handling. Both are very competent drivers.



theobjectivist said:


> As far as musicar, i was wondering if they'd freely offered advice on your install. I wanted to get info on my install but didnt think theyd help without me purchasing the gear


I can't comment on 'free advice', as I did buy the set of Jehnert speakers from them.
But I can say that I've sent them numerous emails, with questions and bouncing ideas... and they have responded every single time, within an hour.
Just been great guys to deal with, from my experience.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Beautiful car, and excellent equipment + install work.  That's pretty much an end game daily driver. :thumbsup:

Performance-wise I know they're fantastic, but the rubber bands on those wheels look like it would be a bit of a harsh ride for a _daily driver_. :surprised: Luckily the Surrey/Delta MRN is quite nice so it's probably not much of an issue. 

Are you using any other playback sources other than the OEM HU and/or a smartphone?

Do you have the rear door speakers set up in a normal L/R stereo configuration, or are they set up as differential/ambient rear fill?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Beautiful car, and excellent equipment + install work.  That's pretty much an end game daily driver. :thumbsup:


Thanks



bbfoto said:


> Performance-wise I know they're fantastic, but the rubber bands on those wheels look like it would be a bit of a harsh ride for a _daily driver_. :surprised: Luckily the Surrey/Delta MRN is quite nice so it's probably not much of an issue.


The car has magnetic ride control (it's loaded to the tits). The mag ride control is surprisingly good, and compensates for a lot. To be honest, the BMW (with thinner tires) has a smoother ride than my previous Audi.



bbfoto said:


> Are you using any other playback sources other than the OEM HU and/or a smartphone?


I am using the built-in 20GB hard drive of the vehicle. I have all my music on 320k MP3.



bbfoto said:


> Do you have the rear door speakers set up in a normal L/R stereo configuration, or are they set up as differential/ambient rear fill?


They are setup in normal L/R, but they are turned down quite a bit, with a lot of delay.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

jimmydee said:


> Thanks
> 
> The car has magnetic ride control (it's loaded to the tits). The mag ride control is surprisingly good, and compensates for a lot. To be honest, the BMW (with thinner tires) has a smoother ride than my previous Audi.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Yeah, I was wondering how much the "comfort"' mode could actually smooth out the ride. Great to know. Unfortunately, I haven't driven any of these with the newer mag ride suspension yet. Seems very impressive.

Using the internal HDD for file storage & playback seems like the most convenient way to go for sure. And I'm not dissing on the car itself, but 20GB seems a bit primitive at this point in time, and for a vehicle of this caliber as well...just a bit surprised at that.

I guess they figure that 95% of the population will being using MP3 or ACC anyway (and they do), in addition to using their smartphones, so the 20GB is adequate. Curious as to whether or not you could clone the existing Drive and replace it with a higher capacity SSD? Hmmmm

How fast & easy is track selection & navigation? Or do you normally just do a shuffle/random play, or playlists most of the time? I'm also curious to see what other file formats it supports, but I can look that up online.

Copy regarding the rear fill. I'm sure that sounds good and gives you some added ambience. 

And nice to know that you're happy with those Mmatts HiFi-6150D amps.  You can't argue with that amount of power being available in that form factor! Any noticeable noise floor with these? I know that they've got to be a bit better than your previous Zapco amps in this regard.

I wanted to try two of them in my girlfriend's vehicle, but they are just 3/16" too tall to fit where I want them so as to not encroach on existing cargo space. 

Anyway, fantastic install. With vehicles like this I think it's important to keep an OEM look & stealth-like system, and you've achieved that to perfection, so props to you. And I'm so glad that these Mobridge units are available otherwise a lot of us in this hobby would be SOL!!!


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> Using the internal HDD for file storage & playback seems like the most convenient way to go for sure. And I'm not dissing on the car itself, but 20GB seems a bit primitive at this point in time, and for a vehicle of this caliber as well...just a bit surprised at that.


Like most car companies, BMW caters to the masses. I'd almost bet that 95% of folks don't even load their music onto the hard drive, but rather just stream it Bluetooth from thieir phone.
There's also a USB input, where you can add tons more music storage. The onboard hard drive sounds better than the USB music input though... I suspect it goes direct into the mObridge, whereas the USB gets filtered through the head unit first.



bbfoto said:


> How fast & easy is track selection & navigation?


BMW iDrive has come a long way... but I wish they'd just use a simple touch screen. Audi has their MMI system, which is similar to iDrive. Kinda cumbersome.
A simple touch screen would be a better approach.



bbfoto said:


> And nice to know that you're happy with those Mmatts HiFi-6150D amps.  You can't argue with that amount of power being available in that form factor! Any noticeable noise floor with these? I know that they've got to be a bit better than your previous Zapco amps in this regard.


The MMATS have zero noise. But neither did my Zapcos...
The MMATS are neither better nor worse than the Zaps. I'd say they sound and perform almost identical. The advantage to the MMATS is the smaller size, and they never get hot.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

My wife's new G series has touchscreen  Even has the annoying gesture feature too. Mine is the older F series (no touchscreen).


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

diy.phil said:


> My wife's new G series has touchscreen  Even has the annoying gesture feature too. Mine is the older F series (no touchscreen).


Ya... the new 5-Series and 7-Series now have touchscreens. Heck, the 7-Series even has a touchscreen keyfob!
I suspect BMW is going to eventually transition all models over to touchscreen, as it's cheaper to manufacture / install than the current iDrive with input wheel.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Thanks for answering my questions above. 



jimmydee said:


> Ya... the new 5-Series and 7-Series now have touchscreens. Heck, the 7-Series even has a touchscreen keyfob!
> I suspect BMW is going to eventually transition all models over to touchscreen, as it's cheaper to manufacture / install than the current iDrive with input wheel.


I have to admit that I haven't even had the desire to look at buying a BMW for a really long time just because I loathed the iDrive sillyness. I think "cumbersome" was the right word! IMO cumbersome and serious driving machines just do not mix well. And I've already had my time with Audi, though I think they've come a long way as well.

But I'm thrilled to hear that iDrive has improved so much, but more so that it looks like they're finally moving towards a Touchscreen UI. Using the iDrive was somewhat akin to trying to use a Trackball Mouse with a tiny PC monitor while driving. I'm actually quite surprised that it passed safety regulations when it was first introduced. :surprised:

Gotta say again that I love your 440i Gran Coupe. The "coupe" moniker still perplexes me a bit. But regardless, you've made it even better now with the audio system that you've installed. Pure daily driver bliss. Enjoy. :thumbsup:


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Just bought a set of Audiofrog GB10 tweeters, and GB40 mids... gonna try them in the rear doors.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Wow very curious how they stack up against the 11m’s.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

GreatLaBroski said:


> Wow very curious how they stack up against the 11m’s.


Gonna find out in a week or so...
I'm away on business all next week, so I won't get them installed until the following.


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

I'm running these passive right now in my 5 series and I'm loving them so far! Just added a tube preamp the other day to see how it changes the overall sound. 

I think you'll love the frogs.



jimmydee said:


> Just bought a set of Audiofrog GB10 tweeters, and GB40 mids... gonna try them in the rear doors.


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## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

theobjectivist said:


> Also, how did musicar help? If you did all the work yourself did they consult on which bits to use? For free?


I have used musicar 2x for 2 bmw's. For the first, they sent me a whole package. For my last one, I bought one amp and a set of morel speakers for the front. These came with mounting rings already attached. 

In that second build there was an issue with the amp and they sent a new one even before I had gotten the first one back to them. They answered a ton of my questions based on these small purchases. Indeed, they helped me with ?'s related to installing the DA3 even though I had sourced that months earlier from a prior dealer. 

I cannot recommend them enough and they know more about BMW installs than I even knew to ask about!


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## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

jimmydee said:


> Just bought a set of Audiofrog GB10 tweeters, and GB40 mids... gonna try them in the rear doors.


Dude, what is wrong with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

mbradlawrence said:


> Dude, what is wrong with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:


Just can't help myself... never ending quest for perfection.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

UPDATE:
I got the Audiofrog GB10 / GB40's installed in my rear doors last weekend.
They are a very nice sounding set of speakers. I'd recommend them 100%, every day of the week.
With that said; the Esotar 430 / Tempo 10 combo still sounds noticeably better... but they're twice the price of the Frogs.

I think I'm done now... not much else I can do, to improve this system.
It really does sound incredible!


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

jimmydee said:


> I think I'm done now... not much else I can do, to improve this system. It really does sound incredible!


Congrats Jim, you have an extremely top-notch stereo and car. Must be an absolute pleasure to drive.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

I find it hard to center my friend's XE200 (in a 335is) on the dash. Do you have any issues with this?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tonynca said:


> I find it hard to center my friend's XE200 (in a 335is) on the dash. Do you have any issues with this?


Not sure I understand what you're asking...
The XE200 is an 8" midbass, located under each front seat.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

I'm talking about the stereo image. I'm having trouble setting time alignment and leveling each side so it appears on the center of the dash. Your system is tuned to have a phantom stage right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tonynca said:


> I'm talking about the stereo image. I'm having trouble setting time alignment and leveling each side so it appears on the center of the dash. Your system is tuned to have a phantom stage right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My system is setup for time alignment for the driver only.

Again, I am not entirely sure I understand what you're asking;
There's no way to get synchronous time alignment for both the driver and passenger at the same time. At least, not with the Helix DSP.
I know Audiofrog has been working on a DSP that can do this... but not released yet.


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

jimmydee said:


> tonynca said:
> 
> 
> > I'm talking about the stereo image. I'm having trouble setting time alignment and leveling each side so it appears on the center of the dash. Your system is tuned to have a phantom stage right?
> ...


I think he's just talking about centering the image to the center of the dash from the driver's seat. It is difficult as the BMW midbass is under the seats.

I think depends on how high of a frequency range you're playing them.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

tranv9565 said:


> I think he's just talking about centering the image to the center of the dash from the driver's seat. It is difficult as the BMW midbass is under the seats.
> 
> I think depends on how high of a frequency range you're playing them.




Hahahaha this. 

I tried crossing at 200 and 300. I noticed they started to break up after 300... Thought these played up to 5000hz? Lies from the manufacturer.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WhiteL02 (Jul 25, 2014)

Great install and car! I bet it really does sound fantastic!!! Enjoy


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tranv9565 said:


> I think he's just talking about centering the image to the center of the dash from the driver's seat. It is difficult as the BMW midbass is under the seats.
> I think depends on how high of a frequency range you're playing them.





tonynca said:


> Hahahaha this.
> I tried crossing at 200 and 300. I noticed they started to break up after 300... Thought these played up to 5000hz? Lies from the manufacturer.


OK. Total brain fart on my end...

The Jehnert's definitely DO NOT play anywhere near 5000Hz. I have mine crossed from 80Hz to 220Hz.
For BMW options available; they are arguably the best speaker out there... but I've always maintained that the underseat midwoofer is the 'weak link' in the system. 
Just a bad overall idea. I wish they would have used a door mounted woofer. 
Even a 6.5" in the lower door would have been a better sounding option.

I tend to time align so that the image is directly in front of me (versus the center of the dash).
Just personal preference, but my vocals are about 4" off the top of the dash, directly in front of me.

I never had trouble with the alignment, when I set-up the system.
But I did focus more on getting the midrange and tweeters aligned, and not so much on the underseat woofer.


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

I agree. I'm running pretty much the same set up. Jehnert XE200 80-240hz. Sinfoni Tempo 40 and Sinfoni Tempo 10. 

I just swapped out the tempo 40 for the Dynaudio E430 this weekend. About to change out the tweeters as well soon.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tranv9565 said:


> I agree. I'm running pretty much the same set up. Jehnert XE200 80-240hz. Sinfoni Tempo 40 and Sinfoni Tempo 10.
> 
> I just swapped out the tempo 40 for the Dynaudio E430 this weekend. About to change out the tweeters as well soon.


What tweeters are you going to swap for?


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

Trying to get the E110 to fit but I don't think it'll work...it's just too large.

Contemplating between the Morel Piccolo or Micro Precision 7.28MKIII.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tranv9565 said:


> Trying to get the E110 to fit but I don't think it'll work...it's just too large.
> 
> Contemplating between the Morel Piccolo or Micro Precision 7.28MKIII.


The E110 definitely won't fit... had a set, and tried. Oh God, I tried.
What I really wanted to do, was an: Esotar 110, and 430 in the door, and an MW172 under the seat.

The MW172 proved to be too deep. I could get it under there, with a custom box... but I could never move the seats. Abandoned the project.

The E110 was just too damn big. No matter where I wanted to put it... it was just to big. Abandoned that one too.

The Tempo 10 has been a REALLY good tweeter for me. I had it in both of my previous Audis. So I just ended-up fitting it into the 440i.
No complaints... but I'm always curious about other options. 
The Piccolo might be a fitment challenge, but the Micro Precision tweeter could be an interesting option. 
Wicked high-end piece that would compliment the Esotar 430 nicely.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

I've often thought about having the lower portion of my door custom-done, and fitted with an Audiofrog GB60 (or something like that).
I am certain it would sound better than the 8" underseat driver that is currently there.


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

jimmydee said:


> I've often thought about having the lower portion of my door custom-done, and fitted with an Audiofrog GB60 (or something like that).
> I am certain it would sound better than the 8" underseat driver that is currently there.


It can be done. Musicar did one and added a pair of e650s I believe.

In terms of the underseat woofers, I've see an audio development sw800 fit in there


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tranv9565 said:


> It can be done. Musicar did one and added a pair of e650s I believe.
> 
> In terms of the underseat woofers, I've see an audio development sw800 fit in there


The doors can definitely be done. The problem I wrestle with, is that my car has the _BMW Individual Package_, with nice leather cross-laced seats and matching door trim... and I don't want to mess with them.

There are a number of woofers that will fit under the seat, with a custom enclosure. The issue is that your seat then becomes stationary. Not really what I want...


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

This can be done and still stay stock... As well as have full movement of your seats.

I've been contemplating it. You just have to make the appropriate spacer.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

I've been considering the AD W800-NEO for under the seat.

Never heard them, but everything online describes them as a 'kick ass' driver.
Super shallow (2.2" depth).


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## Hugg727 (Sep 17, 2009)

jimmydee said:


> I've been considering the AD W800-NEO for under the seat.
> 
> Never heard them, but everything online describes them as a 'kick ass' driver.
> Super shallow (2.2" depth).


Jimmy, this build is like my A7 build from a few years ago....constantly getting better. The BMW is gorgeous!

I am putting the AD w800 NEO's in the doors of my new ride!


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## lbp775 (Jul 7, 2011)

jimmydee said:


> The Jehnert's definitely DO NOT play anywhere near 5000Hz. I have mine crossed from 80Hz to 220Hz.
> For BMW options available; they are arguably the best speaker out there... but I've always maintained that the underseat midwoofer is the 'weak link' in the system.
> Just a bad overall idea. I wish they would have used a door mounted woofer.
> Even a 6.5" in the lower door would have been a better sounding option.


Agreed 100% I have my Jehnerts from 80hz to 200hz. I've been playing around with different slopes and phases but could never get that pinpoint accuracy that I enjoyed in my old Camry. 

What frequencies, slopes and delays are you guys using?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tranv9565 said:


> This can be done and still stay stock... As well as have full movement of your seats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got the fever... and ordered a set of Audio Development W800-NEO's. 
Just swapped one of my MMATS amps from a 6150 to a 4250, so I have ample power to drive them.
The W800-NEO's are *INSANE!* So much better than my Jehnert's.
This is an absolute worthwhile upgrade for any BMW / Mercedes owner.


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

jimmydee said:


> tranv9565 said:
> 
> 
> > This can be done and still stay stock... As well as have full movement of your seats.
> ...


Did yah purchase it on Facebook? If so I am glad because I was so close to doing so...

Now let me know how much you want to sell me the 6150 for?!


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

jimmydee said:


> The W800-NEO's are *INSANE!* So much better than my Jehnert's.
> This is an absolute worthwhile upgrade for any BMW / Mercedes owner.


VERY TEMPTING!!

I know your still fine tuning but what frequency range are you sending to them?


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Just curious what's so much better specifically? SPL? Accuracy? Staging?


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

jimmydee said:


> I got the fever... and ordered a set of Audio Development W800-NEO's.
> Just swapped one of my MMATS amps from a 6150 to a 4250, so I have ample power to drive them.
> The W800-NEO's are *INSANE!* So much better than my Jehnert's.
> This is an absolute worthwhile upgrade for any BMW / Mercedes owner.


NICE glad they were what you were looking for!


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> VERY TEMPTING!!
> 
> I know your still fine tuning but what frequency range are you sending to them?


I'm still playing with the tuning, but they seem to sound best from 65Hz to about 300Hz.

Right now, I've got them running: 65Hz @ 24dB slope, to 250Hz @ 12dB slope. 
I'll probably keep them at this range, as the E430's play nicely down to 200Hz.
They seem to sound better with a 50Hz overlap. Not sure why. Just does.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

tonynca said:


> Just curious what's so much better specifically?





tonynca said:


> SPL?


By a mile... the Jehnert's just didn't have the 'punch' I was looking for. 
The W800's take more power to get them going... but holy smokes! When they get going, they REALLY pound!
Remind me a lot of my old Audiofrog GB60's. They love a lot of power, and they give a lot back when fed properly!



tonynca said:


> Accuracy?


At low, or medium volume levels, you wouldn't notice a difference. But at higher volume, they a substantially more accurate than the Jehnert's.



tonynca said:


> Staging?


Didn't really change my overall stage much. Other than filled it out with more midbass.
The Esotar 430's are the real centerpiece of my system, and they define the front stage, more than any other speaker in my system.
As mentioned; the W800's just fill the midbass better. A lot better.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks for the honest review. I've heard the W800 in a VW GTI but they were in proper kicks. I remember they were very punchy. Great transients. 

I was just curious to know how they did in a BMW. Glad to hear that you're enjoying them!


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## MattyKHZ (Jan 11, 2010)

How did you find the differences between 11m, 12m and AudioFrog as they are all speakers I am looking at for my 2 series that I am wanting to upgrade.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

MattyKHZ said:


> How did you find the differences between 11m, 12m and AudioFrog as they are all speakers I am looking at for my 2 series that I am wanting to upgrade.


Depends what you want to use them for... and more importantly; what you're going to pair them with.

If you're talking just pure musical midrange in your front door, then I thought the Scan 12M sounded the best.
To be honest,the 11M and the 12M sounded very similar. 
The 11M seemed to have an easier time playing lower Hz, but the 12M just sounded musically nicer (to me).

If you need the speaker to dig a little deeper, and play forcefully down to 200Hz, then the GB40 is the clear winner.
I would say the Scans sound better _'musically'_, but the GB40 is brute (for its size).


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I just read through your build. I love a good stealth build. You show great attention to detail. I love the equipment you chose also. I also forget to take pictures along the way. Its usually an after thought. "oh, maybe I should have taken some pictures." Fantastic car and fantastic stereo.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Stycker said:


> I just read through your build. I love a good stealth build. You show great attention to detail. I love the equipment you chose also. I also forget to take pictures along the way. Its usually an after thought. "oh, maybe I should have taken some pictures." Fantastic car and fantastic stereo.


Happens to me every time... I get the equipment, and I'm so excited (almost giddy) to get it installed, that I don't even think about taking pictures.

I did just upgrade my underseat midwoofers, and I did actually take some pics along the way.
I'm travelling for work this week, but perhaps next week when I'm back home, I'll post the install pics of the new woofers.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I'm the same way. I get so excited to hear what everything is going to sound like. I don't try to shortcut anything, but sometimes I'll install things with the intention of going back in later to fix it. Sometimes later never comes around. Again, beautiful and tasteful.


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## Naptownsoldier1488 (Jul 9, 2016)

I'm running 12m now I had the gb40 befor I liked the gb40 more I had the esotar430 before that loved it looking at trying the new focal m 350 or go back to the esotar need to see more people run the focal m first awesome build man looks great


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

UPDATE:
I swapped-out the Jehnert underseat midbass, for a set of Audio-Development W800-NEO's.

I had to make a spacer ring for the new speakers. I ordered a couple pieces of 1" thick HDPE plastic from Amazon, and used the factory speaker to trace a template:









Then I cut it out, using a jigsaw. I know there are guys who have better tools, and do nicer finished cuts... but I have a jigsaw, and this is the end product. Does the job. Fits perfectly. And I also pre-drilled holes to bolt it in, and mount the speaker:









Here's the enclosure in the floor. I had put some sound deadener in it, when I had originally installed the Jehnerts. The only thing that really annoyed me, is when I pulled out the Jehnert, I cut the speaker wire, and it was too short. So I had to attach a bit more length to it. I have some nice pure copper butt-splices, so I used those. 









Hard to tell with the perimiter of carpet in the way; but the HDPE spacers were bolted into place using the 4 OEM fastening points. I also put a seam of 3M Autobody double-sided tape around the bottom perimeter, mostly just to damper any potential vibration. The BMW underseat enclosure is not sealed. It is ported out the side.









The only issue with the W800NEO's, is that they come with HUGE (I mean really huge) speaker terminals. They sit a lot lower than the bottom of the NEO magnet! Not sure why they would design a low profile speaker, and then put these monsterous terminals on them? Kinda defeats the whole intent of a shallow mount. At any rate... I just cut the terminals down with a hacksaw. 









And soldered the speaker cables onto the cut terminal posts (crude / archaic looking... but it works perfectly):









Here's the W800NEO mounted on the spacer ring. Fully bolted in.









After that; I vacuumed-up the potato chip crumbs, and bolted the seat back in. Then did the same thing on the passenger side.


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## porscheman (Jan 1, 2012)

did the factory grills go back on?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I think those look great, and I’m curious to know if there was significant improvement over the drivers they replaced. 


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## MattyKHZ (Jan 11, 2010)

Can’t wait to find out sound impressions and whether this is end game for BMW underseat woofer choices.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

porscheman said:


> did the factory grills go back on?


No, I left them off for a couple reasons:

1. They probably wouldnt have fit (didn't even try), with the new speakers being raised higher (from the 1" spacers).

2. They factory grilles are the ****tiest design I've ever seen. They cover-up over 50% of the speaker! Blocking a lot of the output.

I have a neighbor that has a fabrication shop, and he figures he can build something to cover the speakers. 
To be honest; I don't think it's much of an issue. The only thing that will happen down there, is that they may get cookie crumbs in them...


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

MattyKHZ said:


> Can’t wait to find out sound impressions and whether this is end game for BMW underseat woofer choices.


I would say it may be the end-game for BMW underseat woofers... with a caveat;

From simply a sound quality perspective (versus the Jehnerts that I had in there); there isn't much of an SQ improvement. 
I mean; we're talking about a driver that is mounted under a seat, firing up towards your ass, which is a ****ty design to start with. 
And we're also talking about a driver that plays from 70Hz to 250Hz, so sound quality is less of a factor (versus, say; the midrange in the door).

However, from a sheer power and *punch you in the ass* perspective; they are significantly better! These things pound.

As mentioned in my previous post; if I had a properly sized sub enclosure, that would mitigate the need to really ramp-up the midbass. 
My main intent was to compensate for a slightly lower output from my sub, with harder-hitting midbass... and I've definitely accomplished that.
All in all, I'm very pleased with the end result.


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## jedi-knight83 (Aug 25, 2012)

thread resurection...

It sounds like you are HP your doors at 200Hz? Why so high? 

From other threads I've read and asking other 'professionals' I was led to believe I should cross them as low as possible. I've got a HP at 125Hz on my Focal ES100k (which then have a passive XO to the tweeters at 3kHz)

Thanks in advance. Always looking to improve.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

better power handling - higher SPL, less distortion, less vibration,...it is not always beneficiary to set x-o point (too) low...


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## kumizi (Nov 30, 2018)

JimmyDee said:


> I would say it may be the end-game for BMW underseat woofers... with a caveat;
> 
> From simply a sound quality perspective (versus the Jehnerts that I had in there); there isn't much of an SQ improvement.
> I mean; we're talking about a driver that is mounted under a seat, firing up towards your ass, which is a ****ty design to start with.
> ...


As someone that just bought my first BMW, good info in this thread. 

I have the Focal Utopia M tweeters and 3.5s left over from a previous build. Also have a 12w6 going in the trunk. 

Trying to decide on an 8 inch for under the seat. Based on your experience/opinion, it seems there's no need to go with an expensive 8 under the seats. If you had room for a bigger sub, would you have stayed with the Jehnerts?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

kumizi said:


> If you had room for a bigger sub, would you have stayed with the Jehnerts?


No. Invest the money in a decent underseat driver. The Jehnerts aren't worth the money.


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## kumizi (Nov 30, 2018)

JimmyDee said:


> No. Invest the money in a decent underseat driver. The Jehnerts aren't worth the money.


Go for the Focal 8WM? or something in between?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I highly recommend the ESB BMW SW1 as an 8" underwear drop in replacement.

We're running them in my wife's X3. They're playing approx 60-250hz.
Then an Arc Audio A12 subwoofer in back playing below 60hz.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

kumizi said:


> Go for the Focal 8WM? or something in between?


The 8WM is a really nice driver... 

Here's what I was using: https://pimpmysound.com/Audio-Development-W800NEO


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## kumizi (Nov 30, 2018)

JimmyDee said:


> The 8WM is a really nice driver...
> 
> Here's what I was using: https://pimpmysound.com/Audio-Development-W800NEO


Yeah, I read the whole thread. Someone linked your build thread on a BMW forum

Back in 2019 you said you didnt think there was a big SQ difference between the cheapo Jenhert and the much nicer W800. That's why I was wondering how to invest in the under seat 8s...


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

That was 2019... and 2 cars ago. My opinion has changed, since having the W800 for some time.

The Jehnert was a fairly decent midbass... but the W800 is a definite improvement over it.
If I were to do it again; I wouldn't waste my money on the Jehnert (or any of the drop-in pre-fab speakers). 
Get the W800 or the 8WM.


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## jedi-knight83 (Aug 25, 2012)

where are you guys buying the W800 Neo? I can't find anything on it or any suppliers in the uk?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

As per my post above. This is where I got mine from: https://pimpmysound.com/Audio-Development-W800NEO
Shipped them to me via DHL, and arrive at my door (in Canada) in 3 days.


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