# Mcintosh amps



## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Wondering if anyone can shed some light for me regarding the Mcintosh amps... did they or do they have a special design to their circuits that makes them different and special, or is it just the good implementation and/or parts quality, or just all hype based on their established following and history in Home audio? In Home audio, their older stuff was special, and had a loyal following...they stumbled in the 90s.. then crawled their way back higher...wether their home audio is up there with the state of the art or not , it is debatable... so as far as Car amps.. did they have special features they set them apart? Regulated power supply? Unregulated? Special Tans? special circuits? I have looked at their guts on amp guts and we re not talking point to point wiring here ( like their vintage stuff ) so I am curious. In other words , how does one compare the design of their amps to say .. the Brax, Audison, Tru ? ARC ?


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Hand built in the USA, built to sound great and last a lifetime, PowerGuard circuit to protect the amp and speakers. Just overall very high quality equipment but no real magic pixie dust.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks, Nice honest answer.. it is that magic dust I was wondering about .. you confirmed my thoughts...


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## roduk (Sep 19, 2008)

All amplifiers sound the same :lol:

I have used plenty of amps in car and my fav is my big Mcintosh. It's just so well built. Everything else in my car has gone wrong at some stage in some way or another, yet the McIntosh just keeps on pumping out the watts!

It has huge headroom, which is one of the reasons I like it tbh.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

roduk said:


> All amplifiers sound the same :lol:
> 
> I have used plenty of amps in car and my fav is my big Mcintosh. It's just so well built. Everything else in my car has gone wrong at some stage in some way or another, yet the McIntosh just keeps on pumping out the watts!
> 
> It has huge headroom, which is one of the reasons I like it tbh.


Sorry I heard that comment about all amps before but I am one that can not agree that all sound the same....there may be less options for truly original designs for car audio than in home audio...with far more problems to face in car audio...thats true .. but amps do not sound all the same.. or lets put it that way.. " TRUE" SQ/ audiophile amps CAN NOT sound the same.. some may achieve that in different ways than others.. some may compromise at the expense of other features .. but there is a sound signature to the " Good AMP " if the rest of the system is up to par!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

maxwerks said:


> TRUE" SQ/ audiophile amps CAN NOT sound the same..


What leads you to that rather idiotic and conclusory assertion?


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## kvndoom (Nov 13, 2009)

maxwerks said:


> Sorry I heard that comment about all amps before but I am one that can not agree that all sound the same....there may be less options for truly original designs for car audio than in home audio...with far more problems to face in car audio...thats true .. but amps do not sound all the same.. or lets put it that way.. " TRUE" SQ/ audiophile amps CAN NOT sound the same.. some may achieve that in different ways than others.. some may compromise at the expense of other features .. but there is a sound signature to the " Good AMP " if the rest of the system is up to par!


I believe he was being sarcastic. :blush:


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> What leads you to that rather idiotic and conclusory assertion?


Years and years of owning and using the best Home audio equipment ever made. I would mention the brands for you but judging by your courteous response.. you probably never heard of them.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

kvndoom said:


> I believe he was being sarcastic. :blush:


Yes I believe he did and I missed it .. so I apologize if my answer misunderstood the sarcasm.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

maxwerks said:


> Years and years of owning and using the best Home audio equipment ever made. I would mention the brands for you but judging by your courteous response.. you probably never heard of them.


I assume you've done copious double-blind subjective same/different listening tests on that "best Home [sic] audio equipment ever made," you pompous ****ing twit.

I've owned and used plenty of "high end" audio electronics. The fact of the matter is, *it's all commodity parts.* (Such as, for instance, my Lexicon Blu-Ray player that's been specially modified with a lightweight chassis, black faceplate, and modified illumination.) 

A set of McIntosh or BAT or Pass or Krell or Levinson or Halcro or Bryston or whatever you claim to be "the best" monoblocs wouldn't amplify my mains any better than the Denon AVR-4308ci/A receiver does at home. And certainly in a noisy car, whatever minute differences in amp may possibly exist is swamped by the fact that, well, _they're in a ****ing car!_


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

While I would like to answer you , I think it would be pointless..
so thank you for your insightful observations!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I assume you've done copious double-blind subjective same/different listening tests on that "best Home [sic] audio equipment ever made," you pompous ****ing twit.
> 
> I've owned and used plenty of "high end" audio electronics. The fact of the matter is, *it's all commodity parts.* (Such as, for instance, my Lexicon Blu-Ray player that's been specially modified with a lightweight chassis, black faceplate, and modified illumination.)
> 
> A set of McIntosh or BAT or Pass or Krell or Levinson or Halcro or Bryston or whatever you claim to be "the best" monoblocs wouldn't amplify my mains any better than the Denon AVR-4308ci/A receiver does at home. And certainly in a noisy car, whatever minute differences in amp may possibly exist is swamped by the fact that, well, _they're in a ****ing car!_


Damn dude, watch the profanity...I've got kids looking over my shoulder. To each their own opinion.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 is right ... any amplifier that delivers rated power uniformly over a given audio band, with levels of noise & distortion below audio limits, will sound indistinguishable from any other. It simply has no choice. An amplifier delivers an _electrical_ signal to the terminals of the loudspeaker, about this there can be no debate. If the _electrical_ signal is the same, the speaker has no choice but to _respond_ the same; it doesn't know what brand name is printed on the amplifier. And, finally, we know from linear system theory that the parameters of gain, power, frequency response (into given load), noise and distortion form a complete set impactive parameters. Certainly, amplifiers driven into clipping (or current limiting, for low impedance loads) may behave differently, but that's of zero interest to anyone who cares about _accurate_ reproduction.

So ... what _might_ set McIntosh apart? Couple things :

1. Robust construction, unlikely to suffer damage in the presence of temp changes, humidity variations and physical vibration.

2. They do have a couple patented circuit topologies, including a clever current limiter and the well-known Power Guard for limiting distortion (and, necessarily, power).

3. Input stages that don't ground the negative RCA connection to the amplifier ground! Yes, McIntosh understands how best to transfer a "single-ended" signal in an environment with grounds at dis-similar potentials (yes, some other manufacturers do this, but many don't!)

4. Complete service manuals & schematics for ALL of their amplifiers (and other stuff) are readily available for twenty bucks, and a phone call to their parts department. What this tells me, is that McIntosh isn't trying to cloak their products with some special voodoo. Class AB amplifier topologies just aren't that different ... why hide anything that's not special? McIntosh, the company, is in fact the _antithesis_ of voodoo-sonics  

5. A long, LONG legacy of amplifier construction ... spanning _over fifty years_ now. This, as it so happens, does in fact appeal to me, personally (for what it's worth) 

All of these things, i believe, contribute to McIntosh's high re-sale value in the marketplace ... and why there's no bigger fan of the brand than me


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

oh and by the way ... even after a long absence, it still really, _really_ pains me to point out that DS-21 is _right_ about sumthin


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

lycan said:


> So ... what _might_ set McIntosh apart? Couple things :
> 
> 1. Robust construction, unlikely to suffer damage in the presence of temp changes, humidity variations and physical vibration.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the kind of articulate response to the issue I raised.. what sets them apart... Thank you I enjoyed reading that . 
I will be the first to QUESTION the fame that some brands have over others , in the case of the Mcintosh, yes I knew about the resale value and the company history, and the robust made in the US .. issues..I simply wanted to be informed if there are other factors that sets them apart , electrically-sonically... and I am glad for Lycan's post.


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## Ţĥıπģ₣ıѕђ (Dec 10, 2009)

I could make a killing selling my hardware for Kraco amps!


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## duckymcse (Mar 15, 2009)

Add #6 to the list . The 1 band EQ frequency/level control. At first I didn't like it being in the amplifier, but once I take the time to adjust it; it does help the overall SQ. I can achieve a much deeper midbass along with smoother voices at high volume. I'm not sure if other amplifier have it or did it as good as the MAC. 



lycan said:


> So ... what _might_ set McIntosh apart? Couple things :
> 
> 1. Robust construction, unlikely to suffer damage in the presence of temp changes, humidity variations and physical vibration.
> 
> ...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Niebur3 said:


> Damn dude, watch the profanity...I've got kids looking over my shoulder. To each their own opinion.


If you disagree with his stance on amps, whatever, but let's not take in a different direction and nit pick about profanity.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

89grand said:


> If you disagree with his stance on amps, whatever, but let's not take in a different direction and nit pick about profanity.


We're all mutha ****in' adults here. 

Great post about the Macintosh though.


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

lycan said:


> ....edit......and why there's no bigger fan of the brand than me


You might have some competition for that title, at least on the car audio side of things .


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## Ţĥıπģ₣ıѕђ (Dec 10, 2009)

MACS said:


> You might have some competition for that title, at least on the car audio side of things .


 +1...



I would shake a baby for some McHardware.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

MACS said:


> You might have some competition for that title, at least on the car audio side of things .


There are a few McIntosh fans here. 



Ţĥıπģ₣ıѕђ;954761 said:


> +1...
> I would shake a baby for some McHardware.


I don't know much about shaking babies, but I've got my MC440 up in the classifieds.


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## Ţĥıπģ₣ıѕђ (Dec 10, 2009)

TREETOP said:


> There are a few McIntosh fans here.
> 
> 
> I don't know much about shaking babies, but I've got my MC440 up in the classifieds.





I think I would loose my kibbles and bits if the wife found out I bought more car audio hardware. ( A Zed Kronos, Leviathan and a set of Boston pro60se's in the last week )

However, without continuing to jack this thread, I will keep an eye on that amp for sale Tree.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

x2 DS-21 and lycan.

And I like the idea of a built-in limiter, if that's what this power guard thing is. That's how it's been described at least. No better spot for a limiter than in the amplifier, where it's necessarily pre-calibrated.

They're pretty amps too. That's one of the reasons I'm switching from my ESX amps to my a/d/s/ amps this spring. Much nicer looking heatsinks. And I have the schematics for the a/d/s/ amps. Mantz isn't forthcoming with his schematics. If lycan is right about $20 for the Mac service manuals, then they just went up a notch in my book.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> x2 DS-21 and lycan.
> 
> And I like the idea of a built-in limiter, if that's what this power guard thing is. That's how it's been described at least. No better spot for a limiter than in the amplifier, where it's necessarily pre-calibrated.
> 
> They're pretty amps too. That's one of the reasons I'm switching from my ESX amps to my a/d/s/ amps this spring. Much nicer looking heatsinks. And I have the schematics for the a/d/s/ amps. Mantz isn't forthcoming with his schematics. If lycan is right about $20 for the Mac service manuals, then they just went up a notch in my book.


IF lycan is right .... ??? what ? 

Imagine a simple representation of a power amp as a non-inverting opamp, with a resistive attenuator feedback network. Power Guard monitors the differential signal at the diff-pair inputs. If the amp is functioning with low distortion, this signal will be teeny weeny. If, on the other hand, the amp is starting to distort, this signal will be bigger. If it gets too big, the input signal is attenuated to reduce the amplifier output. It's a wonderfully simple way to detect if the amp is distorting.

That's from memory ... but i'm pretty sure lycan is right


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> All of these things, i believe, contribute to McIntosh's high re-sale value in the marketplace ... and why there's no bigger fan of the brand than me


I don't disagree with anyone, mind, that there are _plenty_ of non-sonic reasons for picking one piece of gear over another, and accordingly spending more. 

Hell, I run a McIntosh HU solely because it's far better-looking than any other option.

But one should be rational, and separate reasons that are rational (build quality, aesthetics, resale value and so on) from reasons that just don't exist ("sound quality").


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> .....edit....If lycan is right about $20 for the Mac service manuals, then they just went up a notch in my book.


Lycan is right . I own some of them including these little gem's.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

lycan said:


> DS-21 is right ... any amplifier that delivers rated power uniformly over a given audio band, with levels of noise & distortion below audio limits, will sound indistinguishable from any other. It simply has no choice. An amplifier delivers an _electrical_ signal to the terminals of the loudspeaker, about this there can be no debate. If the _electrical_ signal is the same, the speaker has no choice but to _respond_ the same; it doesn't know what brand name is printed on the amplifier. And, finally, we know from linear system theory that the parameters of gain, power, frequency response (into given load), noise and distortion form a complete set impactive parameters. Certainly, amplifiers driven into clipping (or current limiting, for low impedance loads) may behave differently, but that's of zero interest to anyone who cares about _accurate_ reproduction.


A couple of questions from someone who is not an engineer and know only a little about amp construction . 

I understand what you are saying regarding amplifiers should sound the same, but aren't there more variables in play that do color the sound, for instance the pre-amp (which almost every amp has).

Can't a poorly designed pre-amp color the sound right at the start? 

Even with a very nice pre-amp, aren't there sonic differences between different op-amps? (I know there amp many that attest to this and reviews of different sounding op-amps are found all over the net by very reputable people/companies and I as well as many on this forum can attest to this.) 

What about an amp that has no op-amp? Wouldn't that amp be sonically better since there is no pre-amp to color the signal? 

Also, I may be wrong on this, but I thought different amps handle soft and hard clipping differently which can greatly color the sound. I'm sure many of us when we are jamming at high volumes are soft clipping our amps and not even realizing it.

Just some thoughts, please be gentle .


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> A couple of questions from someone who is not an engineer and know only a little about amp construction .
> 
> I understand what you are saying regarding amplifiers should sound the same, but aren't there more variables in play that do color the sound, for instance the pre-amp (which almost every amp has).
> 
> ...


First +1 , 
These are the issues I was raising by starting this thread...I would debate the issue further but frankly I have no time or patience much less desire to engage in profanity exchange with anyone. THis is after all a HOBBY, which should invite debate , but lets all remember we are in fact all biased, including our hearing. I do believe any amp claimed to be an audiophile amp, NON mass produced amplifier is " VOICED " to a degree or another.. thats the signature of the designer/ company...you may agree/like that signature or not thats up to you ...... would someone go and tell Nelson Pass.. that all amps sound the same?? Yes the right comparison between amps , would HAVE to entail the rest of the system and conditions be the exact same.. but the difference is heard. Be it the premap in the amp , be it the output stage.. be the opamps, or be it any other parts or circuit design... if everone tells me that there is no detectable difference between a regulated power supply vs. a non.. then I am simply shocked. Hell even the quality of the Gain pot can change the sound !!
Sure " THEORETICALLY " they all sound the same, practically... NEVER! They are all the same when it comes to 90% of the amps out there because there is nothing different in their design approach except enclosure. bling, and target price... but thats NOT what is being discussed here..we are referring to the select few that " claim " to be different , better,..etc....some are , and some simply bank on their name and marketing dollars....The holly grail of an audiophile amp is in fact to be 100% neutral.. that I dont believe has ever been achieved because the design itself goes about achieving that very same so called neutrality varies, sometime slightly and sometimes in a major way. 
I started the thread asking to be informed if the Macintosh car amps, were simply taking advantage of the name and fame they have in home audio or was there real thinking about their design .. and despite the unfortuntate disruptions I managed to get my answer, at least partially.
Thank you


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Also if all amps sound the same, then why dont we all just look at the claimed specs... compare them with the actual tested results.....select what closely matches their claimed results.. then just buy what fits our specification needs and budget..sure after we confirm the warranty and solidity of the company ... why audition any amp?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I believe amps have different tonal characteristics. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it no matter what anyone tries to tell me. I like the amps I'm running because they sound like they're grabbing the speakers by the horns and refusing to let go. Every last detail shows through. Replacing a pair of newer Mclass amps with them was a night and day difference when it comes to the little details in music. It's still my word against yours so for all you know I'm just blowing hot air

As for the way an amp clips, I've noticed that too. When I was running the Crossfire VR series (I had a 302, 404, and 600d at one point all in the same install) the VR amps were really well mannered when pushed into clipping. They never made it blatantly obvious that they were being pushed too hard. My PG Xenon amps seems to go from clean to distorting with very little wiggle room. Not really an issue because I can get my ears ringing long before my amps run out of steam.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

lycan said:


> IF lycan is right .... ??? what ?
> 
> Imagine a simple representation of a power amp as a non-inverting opamp, with a resistive attenuator feedback network. Power Guard monitors the differential signal at the diff-pair inputs. If the amp is functioning with low distortion, this signal will be teeny weeny. If, on the other hand, the amp is starting to distort, this signal will be bigger. If it gets too big, the input signal is attenuated to reduce the amplifier output. It's a wonderfully simple way to detect if the amp is distorting.
> 
> That's from memory ... but i'm pretty sure lycan is right


Haha I meant if you were right about service manuals being readily available and $20.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

maxwerks said:


> First +1 ,
> These are the issues I was raising by starting this thread...I would debate the issue further but frankly I have no time or patience much less desire to engage in profanity exchange with anyone. THis is after all a HOBBY, which should invite debate , but lets all remember we are in fact all biased, including our hearing. I do believe any amp claimed to be an audiophile amp, NON mass produced amplifier is " VOICED " to a degree or another.. thats the signature of the designer/ company...you may agree/like that signature or not thats up to you ...... would someone go and tell Nelson Pass.. that all amps sound the same?? Yes the right comparison between amps , would HAVE to entail the rest of the system and conditions be the exact same.. but the difference is heard. Be it the premap in the amp , be it the output stage.. be the opamps, or be it any other parts or circuit design... if everone tells me that there is no detectable difference between a regulated power supply vs. a non.. then I am simply shocked. Hell even the quality of the Gain pot can change the sound !!
> Sure " THEORETICALLY " they all sound the same, practically... NEVER! They are all the same when it comes to 90% of the amps out there because there is nothing different in their design approach except enclosure. bling, and target price... but thats NOT what is being discussed here..we are referring to the select few that " claim " to be different , better,..etc....some are , and some simply bank on their name and marketing dollars....The holly grail of an audiophile amp is in fact to be 100% neutral.. that I dont believe has ever been achieved because the design itself goes about achieving that very same so called neutrality varies, sometime slightly and sometimes in a major way.


It's not that hard to design a completely "neutral" amplifier. Doug Self calls it a "blameless" amplifier, and provides designs, measurements, and simulations of one in his last book.

We're not talking the final frontier here. It's amplifier circuits -- some of the most basic electronic circuits there are.



> Also if all amps sound the same, then why dont we all just look at the claimed specs... compare them with the actual tested results.....select what closely matches their claimed results.. then just buy what fits our specification needs and budget..sure after we confirm the warranty and solidity of the company ... why audition any amp?


That's a good question. Why audition any amp? Lots of us don't.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

If the preamp section does not change the power amp's gain, power, frequency response, noise or distortion ... then it won't change the amp's sound.

If the opamp selection in the preamp does not change the amp's gain, power, frequency response, noise or distortion ... then it won't change the amp's sound.

If the type of wire or solder used does not change the power amp's gain, power, frequency response, noise or distortion ... then it won't change the amp's sound.

Do all amps sound the same? OF COURSE NOT. Take two identical amps, from the same manufacturer and same production run, and turn the gain all the way DOWN on one, and all the way UP on the other. Only a fool would believe these two amps sound the same!

A trivial example? Actually, no. Consider the logical extensions. Howabout if the gains are set 0.8dB different? Will the amps sound the same ... or different? I suggest that they WILL sound different, but not necessarily in volume  one will sound warmer, better midbass tonality, etc. Care to prove me wrong? There's an easy, DEFINITIVE experiment that will do it 

Now apply the SAME thought process to power, frequency response, noise & distortion 

You only need to understand logic, to understand the inescapable truth of these two statements:

All amps do NOT sound the same.
All amps that measure the same, MUST sound the same.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

By the way ... McIntosh, as a company, really _does_ laugh at amplifier "sonics" and other voodoo stuff like amplifier "voicing"  (at least, while Frank McIntosh, Sidney Corderman, et al were running the show). They DESIGNED ... and equally important, TESTED ... to MEASURED SPECIFICATIONS. Or does anyone think that some golden-ear-guru really sits on the production line, "listening" to these things during production test?

So if you're looking for a "designer voice" to your amplifier, better look someplace other than McIntosh


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> It's not that hard to design a completely "neutral" amplifier. Doug Self calls it a "blameless" amplifier, and provides designs, measurements, and simulations of one in his last book.
> 
> We're not talking the final frontier here. It's amplifier circuits -- some of the most basic electronic circuits there are.


Mark's right, you know. One of my favorite "riddles" is this:

Does anyone really think that the three great mysteries of modern physics are:

1. A unified theory of gravity and sub-atomic particles, that finally _comprehends_ and _unites_ quantum mechanics and general relativity.

2. Dark matter and dark energy, that seem to be causing the _rate_ of expansion of the universe to be _increasing_.

3. How the hell to accurately deliver a hundred watts of a 20kHz audio signal to a loudspeaker.

The point being ... neutral audio power amps are _easy_. Check the specs, make sure the amp is meeting the specs, and worry about the other hundred things that are _difficult_ in car audio.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> I understand what you are saying regarding amplifiers should sound the same, but aren't there more variables in play that do color the sound, for instance the pre-amp (which almost every amp has).


How is a preamp functionally different from an amp, except that it works on a smaller scale?



Niebur3 said:


> Can't a poorly designed pre-amp color the sound right at the start?


A badly designed anything can color the sound. Such things are rare.



Niebur3 said:


> Even with a very nice pre-amp, aren't there sonic differences between different op-amps?


No. 



Niebur3 said:


> Also, I may be wrong on this, but I thought different amps handle soft and hard clipping differently which can greatly color the sound. I'm sure many of us when we are jamming at high volumes are soft clipping our amps and not even realizing it.


Then get more efficient speakers and/or more power.



maxwerks said:


> Also if all amps sound the same, then why dont we all just look at the claimed specs... compare them with the actual tested results.....select what closely matches their claimed results.. then just buy what fits our specification needs and budget..sure after we confirm the warranty and solidity of the company ... why audition any amp?


Very good questions. Smart people who value their time, as a rule, don't "audition" amps. I know that I didn't "audition" any of the amps currently in my car or home systems.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I believe amps have different tonal characteristics. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it no matter what anyone tries to tell me.


Do you believe the earth is flat, too, despite what anyone tries to tell you? It's really not an issue that's debatable at this point.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

lycan said:


> If the preamp section does not change the power amp's gain, power, frequency response, noise or distortion ... then it won't change the amp's sound.
> 
> If the opamp selection in the preamp does not change the amp's gain, power, frequency response, noise or distortion ... then it won't change the amp's sound.
> 
> ...


Thank You Lycan for actually explaining what my ears are hearing. You are the first one on this forum to actually teach me why I hear a difference and 
it does now at least makes sense. I hate hearing just "no" to a question I ask with no explanation to why I am hearing a difference or someone asking me to prove what I can clearly hear.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

lycan said:


> Do all amps sound the same? OF COURSE NOT. Take two identical amps, from the same manufacturer and same production run, and turn the gain all the way DOWN on one, and all the way UP on the other. Only a fool would believe these two amps sound the same!
> .


But we are NOT talking about two identical amps from the same manufacturer here.... are you saying that two entirely different amps , from two different manufacturers / designers...with entirely different circuit designs, parts, power supplies etc... should sound the same if they happen to measure the same??


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> Thank You Lycan for actually explaining what my ears are hearing. You are the first one on this forum to actually teach me why I hear a difference and
> it does now at least makes sense. I hate hearing just "no" to a question I ask with no explanation to why I am hearing a difference or someone asking me to prove what I can clearly hear.


Well, you're welcome 

Honestly guys, it has LOTS more to do with logic (and, dare I say it, the scientific method) than it does with electronics or acoustics.

We "observe" some effect in the universe; let's say we "listen" to a power amplifier driving a speaker. We're interested in determining what _parameters_ of that amplifier determine the sound we are hearing. That's a fair question, right?

So maybe we learn a little bit of electronics, or linear system theory, and we suggest this hypothesis :

*Everything about the sound of the amplifier can be attributed to this finite "set" of parameters : gain, power, frequency response, noise & distortion.*

How might we _test_ this hypothesis? How might we COMPARE _two_ amplifiers, for example, and determine if this "set" is complete & exhaustive? How can we determine if there IS a sonic difference between the two amps, that can NOT be attributed to this classic "set" of parameters?

Here's a test that _won't_ do what I'm asking : "I heard this bosstastic amp in my buddies camaro, and I thought it pounded some serious **** man. But then, i heard this wonderzap amp at the stereo store, and holy fuk that thing rocked! So i know for a FACT that the 'hypothesis' is bogus dude!"

Why _doesn't_ that test invalidate the hypothesis? WHY ???????????

Science always, ALWAYS points directly to an experiment that will _invalidate_ an hypothesis. Any scientific theory is ABSOLUTELY falsifiable by experiment. It's one of the fundamental things that separates science from religion


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

maxwerks said:


> But we are NOT talking about two identical amps from the same manufacturer here.... are you saying that two entirely different amps , from two different manufacturers / designers...with entirely different circuit designs, parts, power supplies etc... should sound the same if they happen to measure the same??


Of course they will. They have no choice.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

lycan said:


> By the way ... McIntosh, as a company, really _does_ laugh at amplifier "sonics" and other voodoo stuff like amplifier "voicing"  (at least, while Frank McIntosh, Sidney Corderman, et al were running the show). They DESIGNED ... and equally important, TESTED ... to MEASURED SPECIFICATIONS. Or does anyone think that some golden-ear-guru really sits on the production line, "listening" to these things during production test?
> 
> So if you're looking for a "designer voice" to your amplifier, better look someplace other than McIntosh


Lycan, I was referring to the designer ( Person ) of the amp / circuit .. not referring to a cliche of " Designer amps " . And no I am not looking for " designer amps" ....I do believe certain companies or ( Person designing the amp within them) do have and practice their own biases, call it voicing call what you want...if one didnt have that then all what is left a " limited ways of getting from point A to B " which anyone can download for free and copy, and the price target/cost the company is trying to meet... oh and the bling factor.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Measure the same- same distortion profile including crossover distortion if switching amp, phasing, FR, power...they will sound the same. The "test" has been done.

Stereophile: The Carver Challenge

All amps do not sound the same.

Amps that measure exactly the same will sound the same.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

maxwerks said:


> Lycan, I was referring to the designer ( Person ) of the amp / circuit .. not referring to a cliche of " Designer amps " . And no I am not looking for " designer amps" ....I do believe certain companies or ( Person designing the amp within them) do have and practice their own biases, call it voicing call what you want...if one didnt have that then all what is left a " limited ways of getting from point A to B " which anyone can download for free and copy, and the price target/cost the company is trying to meet... oh and the bling factor.


How can a designer ... ANY designer ... "voice" an amp without altering it's frequency response? And remember ... there's only one _frequency response_ that's accurate 

Also ... do you have an EQ? Why not use that to "voice" your _audio system_, operating in its _environment_, to your liking ... rather than relying on someone else "voicing" a single component?

Reasons to pick one amp over another :

1. Power, and let's include power efficiency
2. Features (crossovers, EQ, etc.)
3. Ability to receive a single-ended signal without grounding the negative to amp ground! There's a simple circuit to do it  Yeah it's a pet-peeve (sp?) with me  but please note that "noise", as a parameter, features prominently on my "set" of impactive parameters 
4. Size
5. Cosmetics
6. Reliability & warranty
7. Price

Of course, we're assuming that the amp actually meets or exceeds that finite "set" of parameters that contribute to it's "sound". If that's the case, no need to include "sound" on the list of reasons to buy an amplifier. If that's not the case, look elsewhere for an amp from a manufacturer that _doesn't_ lie. Either way, "sound" doesn't belong on the list.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

maxwerks said:


> Lycan, I was referring to the designer ( Person ) of the amp / circuit .. not referring to a cliche of " Designer amps " . And no I am not looking for " designer amps" ....I do believe certain companies or ( Person designing the amp within them) do have and practice their own biases, call it voicing call what you want...if one didnt have that then all what is left a " limited ways of getting from point A to B " which anyone can download for free and copy, and the price target/cost the company is trying to meet... oh and the bling factor.


They can do that now. Do you really think that certain designers come along and introduce a circuit that nobody else has ever thought of or modeled or built before? 

An amp I have on my bench right now has an identical soft start circuit as the example in the textbook I have on switching power supplies. 

The "art" of the design has a lot more to do with building an amp, _given a set of limitations_ imposed upon you by your supplier, marketing department, etc. Variation only comes from the fact that there's more than one way to skin a cat.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Jeff, you have to help me use the EQ to make other amps sound like the HSS .

Tubes rule!


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Measure the same- same distortion profile including crossover distortion if switching amp, phasing, FR, power...they will sound the same. The "test" has been done.
> 
> Stereophile: The Carver Challenge
> 
> ...


Jason brings up a good point, about noise & small-signal distortion measurements (including crossover distortion).

It is true, that a SINGLE noise (and/or distortion) measurement at a SINGLE amplitude, and a SINGLE frequency, may not be comprehensive. Just to argue this point in the extreme : imagine if i use a monster amp ... capable of delivering 1000 watts, lets say ... on an ultra-high efficiency speaker, that will generate 110 db with 1 watt. Am I really interested in the singal-to-noise ratio of the amp at 1000 watts, or at 1 watt? The noise floor MAY look good compared to a thousand watts, but not so good at 1 watt. Same is true for crossover distortion, if the amp's bias tends to drift a little from its design target.

So we must allow, in my view, that while noise & distortion are comprehensive categories, it MAY require more than a single measurement to comprehend the amp's performance over all possible (but still reasonable) load conditions.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Jeff, you have to help me use the EQ to make other amps sound like the HSS .
> 
> Tubes rule!


Dude i STILL maintain that Class A amps make sense for high-efficiency drivers. If the amount of power you need is SMALL, you're not going to care about power efficiency. So why even "introduce" the possibility of a Class AB bias drift ... and the commensurate increase in crossover distortion? And yes, virginia, they DO drift (largely because most Class AB bias circuits rely not only on negative feedback, but matching between components that are aging and drifting with temperature) ... but nothing that escapes our ability to _measure_, of course  The Class AB circuit just doesn't match the application, in my view, for high-efficiency drivers.

Yes i do like tubes ... huge nostalgia factor for me  Microphonics in a car are a negative though 

Should have included "weight" on the reason to buy an amp ... or not 

EDIT : Tube amps _can_, and often _do_, sound different than transistor amps. Different in a way that can't be measured? Of course not! Tube amps tend to have high-ish output impedance (damn transformer, plus low feedback factors), which impacts their *frequency response* when driving reactive loads. They also tend to have higher levels of *distortion*, compared to transistor amps (low feedback, again). Of course the distortion my be deemed "pleasant", being mostly second harmonic (they are square-law devices, after all, not unlike MOSFETs).

Yuck. I still hate talking about amplifiers.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Allright guys , I have to say that I am beginning to see your points , even though I feel tha I have to read your most recent posts few times over since youre getting too technical for my non electronics expertise and knowledge.. but I have to admit.. from what I do understand I can see your points.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Many people use the wrong terms. Most amps are rated to have a flat *response *20-20Khz within say 1dB. Can one be off +/-1dB someplace and sound a little different? Yes. Can you get rid of that with an EQ in an instant? Yes. This is color, or voicing. Sometimes I like that for an install sometimes not. Yet today it matters little because everyone has an EQ.

Another term is *sonic quality*, really that is THD+N and most any amp it is below what a human can hear. This is not a good argument to make anymore. Just about any amp worth buying can produce a pretty flat response and great THD+N numbers, therefor it must reproduce the input signal near perfectly and sound the same as another amp, for its rated use, excepting slight response differences. Those 'differences' are the choice of the designer, or lack of. It does not matter what circuits are used to accomplish those ratings and most amps don't bs THD/response ratings because they are so easy to get.

The electronics in your cell phone are something like 1,000 times more complex than an amplifier. Yeah a guess, but amps are very simple. That does not mean you can't make a better amp with better design and higher quality components, it is just not much of a factor for sonic quality. Electrical noise rejection, durability, resale, protection circuits, efficiency, and so on are big factors.

Sure I'd love them to spec clipping behavior, but they don't. I have favorite amps that sound and clip in ways I like better, and it is trial and error to find them. Back in the old days D) I used to build my system with no EQ, they were expensive and difficult to even find a clean one. But that was when I had 40 free hours a week to swap drivers, change the install, and swap amps until I got it right.

One last issue is that most people play amps into clipping well before they know it, and the sound does change, but amps are not rated into clipping and nobody recommends or intends you to use them there...ok well most don't. A good design IMHO will account for that happening and do what they can.

Blaupunkt and Alpine used to show a graph of distortion rates on/for many of their amps, I even had an old pyramid that showed it right on the amp. Most solid state amps have the same curve; it drops slightly with more output, and turns up sharply beyond the max ratings.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> Many people use the wrong terms. Most amps are rated to have a flat *response *20-20Khz within say 1dB. Can one be off +/-1dB someplace and sound a little different? Yes. Can you get rid of that with an EQ in an instant? Yes. This is color, or voicing. Sometimes I like that for an install sometimes not. Yet today it matters little because everyone has an EQ.
> 
> Another term is *sonic quality*, really that is THD+N and most any amp it is below what a human can hear. This is not a good argument to make anymore. Just about any amp worth buying can produce a pretty flat response and great THD+N numbers, therefor it must reproduce the input signal near perfectly and sound the same as another amp, for its rated use, excepting slight response differences. Those 'differences' are the choice of the designer, or lack of. It does not matter what circuits are used to accomplish those ratings and most amps don't bs THD/response ratings because they are so easy to get.
> 
> ...


Good post 

coming from an old guy who has designed _both_, your factor of 1000 may be a little light


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## ACRucrazy (Mar 13, 2007)

So basically what you all are all saying is that:

-All amps do NOT sound the same.
-All amps that measure the same, MUST sound the same. 
-Since all amps do NOT sound the same, they do NOT measure the same, therefore all amps sound different and measure different.
-Consequently the arguement that all amps that measure the same sound the same is pointless?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Not me...cause I like to learn. And I know I don't know as much as I want to about this stuff. I bring up crossover distortion because in my little audio world things like that are important...but a majority of people don't use speakers that are 110+ dB efficient. But then again I want to make people there is more to "distortion" than a THD measurement.

Talking magic stuff like power cable differences and magic stones on your cables...that is nonsense.

Maybe I should have been an EE?

Still need to call you.



lycan said:


> Yuck. I still hate talking about amplifiers.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

ACRucrazy said:


> So basically what you all are all saying is that:
> 
> -All amps do NOT sound the same.
> -All amps that measure the same, MUST sound the same.
> ...


haa haa ... nope.

Let's say you've got a megabuck amp, voiced by some audio-designer-guru. And you're comparing it to a lower price amp, without a designer name on it. Sure enough ... the megabuck amp sounds better! But then, you peek under the covers and find that the gain on the megabuck amp was set 0.8 dB higher.

Now, given that most people won't necessarily set their gains to within fractional-dB differences ... should we conclude that it makes sense to buy the megabuck amp? Is that the valid conclusion? Or is there something else to be learned from this observation?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Jeff, you designed amps too? I thought you were mainly into the digital side of things like DACs and such. Thanks again for that multibit DAC .


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

ACRucrazy said:


> So basically what you all are all saying is that:
> 
> -All amps do NOT sound the same.
> -All amps that measure the same, MUST sound the same.
> ...


I'm not saying that. The old guys are saying that. 

I think lycan is being conservative here. Obviously no one wants to say _all_ amps are going to sound the same in _all_ circumstances. It's impossible to measure _all_ amplifiers. So if you make the statement that _all_ amps sound the same, and then someone digs up some monstrosity from somewhere that sounds different, then that defeats the argument. And that's unfortunate, because the essence of the argument is a valid one.

I won't speak for lycan, but the point I've been making is more in line with DS-21's -- that amps are commodity parts. It's not terribly difficult or expensive to build and design a "blameless" amplifier, and so there's really no reason for a manufacturer to produce one that colors the sound unless they're trying to.

I also don't think clipping belongs in the discussion. Amplifiers are designed to do certain things. When you ask them to do something they're not designed to do, then why should we fault the amplifier for it? If it's rated for 100w, and you try to squeeze 150w out of it, then you're not using the equipment properly. You don't buy a 4 ohm stable amp and run it at 1 ohm and then say "this amp sucks!" when the thing blows up.


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## ACRucrazy (Mar 13, 2007)

lycan said:


> Now, given that most people won't necessarily set their gains to within fractional-dB differences ...


And maybe thats where home audio manufacturers got it right? :laugh:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Blameless amp and distortion in amps:

Distortion In Power Amplifiers

Note those crossover distortion notches that plague my high efficiency world.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Do you believe the earth is flat, too, despite what anyone tries to tell you? It's really not an issue that's debatable at this point.


I know the earth is round, amps sound different (if poorly designed), and the fart I just ripped in my truck will fog me next time i plop down in the drivers seat. How's that?:laugh:


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> All amps do not sound the same.
> 
> Amps that measure exactly the same will sound the same.


You're correct, but you're not taking it to the appropriate next level, which is that

_almost all amps measure within known just-noticeable-difference thresholds of each other on frequency response, distortion, noise, etc._

(the exceptions being some of the really cheap stuff, and some of the boutique "high end" **** that's "designed" by marketers who don't know how to design circuits.)

*therefore*

*amps are commodity parts,* and "auditioning" them is an utter waste of time. So pick amps based on important parameters (and I'm with werewolf in including "weight," as one, with lower being better in a car) and not on some illusory "sound."


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I choose my amps based on how reliable they will be over time. My amps could weigh 50lbs a piece and my truck wouldn't know the difference. I also do most of my listening with the engine OFF. Yeah, I'm a critical listener and I'm considerate of others in the house...plus my truck is ALWAYS dead silent on the inside when sitting still. I rarely listen to music while driving. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> You're correct, but you're not taking it to the appropriate next level, which is that
> 
> _almost all amps measure within known just-noticeable-difference thresholds of each other on frequency response, distortion, noise, etc._
> 
> ...


once again, DS-21 and Mark have nailed it.

There really are two steps to the commodity conclusion :

1. An amplifier's "sound" is completely, thoroughly & exhaustively determined by a finite set of electrical parameters.

2. Those parameters are so easily & readily achieved by modern electronics (well, "modern" compared to when McIntosh introduced their first amp !!), that there's really no point in even discussing amp sonics any more.

It's just hard to argue the second point, in my nerve-wracking experience, until you get past the first 

By the way ... there's nothing "wrong" with making your amp a fashion statement (as long as you recognize it as such, you're not delusional). Hell, we do it with clothes, jewelry, cars ... why not electronics too ?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I might be having a blonde moment, but I'm not understanding the commodity part. Is it because you believe there is no intrinsical differences between them relative to sonics? Only the packaging of the product?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Commodity, because an amp is as easy to build as a toaster considering the advancement of electronics since say the early 80s when crappy amps were somewhat common. (when people screamed for THD specs to find that out)


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

I am not sure how many of you read the stereophile article referenced earlier regarding Bob Carver... in the end .. they all agreed , Carver included, that the carver prototype amp was constructed specifically by Bob to be able to alter most parameters/ measuerments ...that should say a lot... I still say that the point was proved and I know I have learned a lot.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

sqshoestring said:


> Those 'differences' are the choice of the designer, or lack of. It does not matter what circuits are used to accomplish those ratings and most amps don't bs THD/response ratings because they are so easy to get.


This is precisely what I was trying to describe.. sqshoestring put it in a much more articulate way!!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

maxwerks said:


> I am not sure how many of you read the stereophile article referenced earlier regarding Bob Carver... in the end .. they all agreed , Carver included, that the carver prototype amp was constructed specifically by Bob to be able to alter most parameters/ measuerments ...that should say a lot... I still say that the point was proved and I know I have learned a lot.


Hehe I haven't read that article yet, but it's funny that the M-1.0t is the one featured in that article, and I'm working on a broken M-4.0t (practically the same design...) _as we speak_. 

There are some things about it that I like, and some things I don't like. And I know this without it being hooked up to speakers. 

Time to turn off the o-scope now and go watch the super bowl!


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

lycan said:


> By the way ... there's nothing "wrong" with making your amp a fashion statement (as long as you recognize it as such, you're not delusional). Hell, we do it with clothes, jewelry, cars ... why not electronics too ?


I do have to admit, in Home audio I always had a bias toward tube amps wired point to point.. some had quite a statement in their industrial design,, specially italian designs....something thought of, labor of love if you will ... some of the older japanese amps.. Audio Note, older Marantz, and several other handmade limited production designs...I still love opening the top of some of these tube beauties to admire the layout of the guts, the attention to detail...that of course is all biased from my part.. having nothing to do with how the amp measured and I knew it ....at the same time.. it is almost known that Japanese ones are made like a Sherman tank to last a life time.. italian ones mostly design from the outside in..( longevity is secondary ! ) , french are all over the place...etc...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The Bob Carver article was finally the proof I needed to really solidify the argument to me...and that was written 25 years back. Oddly enough this was published in Stereophile of all places. I guess Stereophile has changed over the years, but heresy would still be cried today.

I just wished that I had the knowledge to change things to "voice" amps and electronics how I wanted them to be.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Measure the same- same distortion profile including crossover distortion if switching amp, phasing, FR, power...they will sound the same. The "test" has been done.
> 
> Stereophile: The Carver Challenge
> 
> ...


The funniest thing about the article was _not_ that Bob Carver succeeded ... the funny thing is, a handful of audio "reviewers" who don't understand that if the voltage presented to a loudspeaker from Amp A is identical (to within -70dB) to the voltage presented from Amp B, then the loudspeaker has NO CHOICE but to respond (i.e., sound) identically.

Really ... they needed to "hear" the speakers before they were confident in that conclusion?

Amazing ... simply amazing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The amazing part is they admitted to it in print.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I just wished that I had the knowledge to change things to "voice" amps and electronics how I wanted them to be.


HA! You and me both, though the more I learn the more I wonder why. I don't have enough equipment to test like I want to...yet...but its fun just the same.

Indeed amplifiers are electrical devices, they don't have any sound in them at all. We can manage electricity very well these days, with mathematical precision. With a simple little amplifier its all a matter of making it cheaper and cheaper, less parts, smaller size, and what features the customer might want added to it or in the appearance of it.

There has been some work done, the gurus say the new JL hybrids are very well designed.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> The amazing part is they admitted to it in print.


ha ! :laugh:

As an electrical engineer, it was obvious that Carver could (and would) succeed.

As someone who understands logic, it was obvious that as soon as the voltage between the speakers was "nullified", the "amps" would "sound" the same. No need to even listen ...

It's the same as saying "Once we disconnected the speaker from the amplifier, it no longer played music. But we were SHOCKED when we actually heard silence! I called my other audio review-guru-buddy, and he was amazed too !!"


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## Ţĥıπģ₣ıѕђ (Dec 10, 2009)

lycan said:


> "Once we disconnected the speaker from the amplifier, it no longer played music. But we were SHOCKED when we actually heard silence! I called my other audio review-guru-buddy, and he was amazed too !!"




Quote of the year.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

thehatedguy said:


> The amazing part is they admitted to it in print.


The 1985 Stereophile was an entirely different publication than the nowadays one or the one from 10 years ago.. they will never again print such article.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I was asking a guy, one who has designed his own amp, about building an IC amp for fun. He says well you should build a discrete class D, you would learn a lot about them.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I choose my amps based on how reliable they will be over time.


Perfectly rational criterion, that. Except that one can't truly "know" how reliable a given piece of kit will be, just make reasonable inferences based on track record, perceived build quality, and so on.



thehatedguy said:


> I might be having a blonde moment, but I'm not understanding the commodity part. Is it because you believe there is no intrinsical differences between them relative to sonics? Only the packaging of the product?


It's not what I "believe," it is what _is_.



lycan said:


> By the way ... there's nothing "wrong" with making your amp a fashion statement (as long as you recognize it as such, you're not delusional). Hell, we do it with clothes, jewelry, cars ... why not electronics too ?


Agreed. Whether one likes to show off gear, or (my take) think it better heard and not seen is a matter of preference, about which reasonable people can disagree. Unlike amp "sonics," which is an issue that only unreasonable people or people of bad faith believe to exist.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was just wanting a lil clarification as to if I was reading that right.

Part of me believes it.

Part of me says tubes are always better than transistors.


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## Salad Fingers (Jun 14, 2009)

lycan said:


> All amps do NOT sound the same.
> All amps that measure the same, MUST sound the same.


What you are saying makes sense. What I'm wondering is what you mean by measure. Is it as simple as if two amp are measured at the same output voltage, they will sound the same? Or do you mean if they have the same measurements in THD, S/N Ratio, Damping Factor, and Slew Rate they will sound the same? If it is the latter, which of the listed items are most important? In what order? In my "knowledge" I have gained over the years working with people who have built world champion SQ cars, the most important thing to look at is the Slew Rate of an amp. Then THD, S/N and Damping are all pretty equally important. I'm very interested to hear what you guys have to say.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Salad Fingers said:


> What you are saying makes sense. What I'm wondering is what you mean by measure. Is it as simple as if two amp are measured at the same output voltage, they will sound the same? Or do you mean if they have the same measurements in THD, S/N Ratio, Damping Factor, and Slew Rate they will sound the same? If it is the latter, which of the listed items are most important? In what order? In my "knowledge" I have gained over the years working with people who have built world champion SQ cars, the most important thing to look at is the Slew Rate of an amp. Then THD, S/N and Damping are all pretty equally important. I'm very interested to hear what you guys have to say.


What i mean is this (approximately) :

- same frequency response, to within about +/- 0.25dB
- same gain, to within about +/- 0.25dB
- distortion below audible limits. {If one amp measures -75dB, for example, and the other measures -87dB ... the one with -87dB will not "sound better", since all distortion components will be below audible limits for _both_ amps}
- similar comments for noise.

Regarding slew rate : *IF* both amps are "fast enough", *THEN* one that is "faster" is NOT going to sound any different from the slower one ... *IF* both amps are fast enough. How fast is fast enough? It's a very easy calculation : determine the fastest rate-of-change of a 20kHz signal at the amplifier's output. If the slew rate is "bigger" than this, then it's fast enough


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Salad Fingers said:


> What you are saying makes sense. What I'm wondering is what you mean by measure. Is it as simple as if two amp are measured at the same output voltage, they will sound the same? Or do you mean if they have the same measurements in THD, S/N Ratio, Damping Factor, and Slew Rate they will sound the same? If it is the latter, which of the listed items are most important? In what order? In my "knowledge" I have gained over the years working with people who have built world champion SQ cars, the most important thing to look at is the Slew Rate of an amp. Then THD, S/N and Damping are all pretty equally important. I'm very interested to hear what you guys have to say.


Slew rate and damping are not an issue for modern day amplifiers. It's very easy to exceed the "blameless" level for both of those parameters.

Of those you listed, I would say that the important issues to look at are on the noise front. Not so much the internally generated noise, which is usually what the spec sheet will tell you about, but its propensity for noise, ground loops, and so forth. Some amps seem to be harder to exorcise the noise demons than other amps. But this is usually difficult to predict from the spec sheet.


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## Salad Fingers (Jun 14, 2009)

So what amps do you use? What amps would you use? What do you look at when considering an amp? What specific numbers are the minimum acceptable, and anything above/below is just unnecessary? Is there a sound difference from JL Slash to Zapco C2K to Arc SE?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Salad Fingers said:


> So what amps do you use? What amps would you use? What do you look at when considering an amp? What specific numbers are the minimum acceptable, and anything above/below is just unnecessary? *Is there a sound difference from JL Slash to Zapco C2K to Arc SE?*


I seriously doubt there is any audible difference between those.

I used to run PPI Art series amps (universally considered to be great amps) and later I used JBL GTO series amps (*not* universally considered to be great amps) and I heard absolutely no difference between them. 

Even my cheap ass little class D Sony 4 channel in my Jeep sounds fine to me. No noise or anything weird at all. 

The differences between amps is very very small for the most part. I have no idea why it gets so blown out of proportion.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Salad Fingers said:


> So what amps do you use? What amps would you use? What do you look at when considering an amp? What specific numbers are the minimum acceptable, and anything above/below is just unnecessary? Is there a sound difference from JL Slash to Zapco C2K to Arc SE?


Yes, this IS a thread about McIntosh amps ... but the whole point of the discussion, as it has evolved, is to avoid "name brand" thinking. Don't look at the brand (except, perhaps, if it gives clues about reliability & warranty) ... look at the specs. The specs determine the sound, not the brand.

Determine the power you need, then look at features, size, cosmetics, price, warranty.


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## Salad Fingers (Jun 14, 2009)

... and what is it that I'm looking for in a frequency response? For example, a JL 300/2 has a frequency response of

5 Hz - 30 kHz (+0, -1dB)

and a Zapco C2K6.0X has a frequency response of

20Hz - 20KHz, + 0dB / -0.32dB

What can I infer about how different these amps will sound?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Salad Fingers said:


> What amps would you use? What do you look at when considering an amp?


I would use basically anything that I could reasonably assume to be of reasonable quality, reasonable reliability, and adequately powerful for the given application. There are exceptions, for instance due to the idiocy/incompetency of their online representation I would not consider running an Arc, Zapco, Image Dynamics, or Hybrid Audio Technologies amp, assuming those companies all marketed/made (typically more "marketed" than "made") amps. BUT, I would use the same amp as sold by one of those from another marketer/reseller. In fact, one of the amps in my current system, an elfAudio 2125X, is the same amp under the heatsink as the Arc KS 125.2 Mini...

(The flip side of that, the quality and integrity of their online representation makes me more inclined towards considering a JL or Infinity/JBL amp.) 

I also have a broad preference for Class D amps, both subwoofer and full-range, because they are (generally) lighter, smaller, and more efficient.



Salad Fingers said:


> Is there a sound difference from JL Slash to Zapco C2K to Arc SE?


Assuming the Zapco and Arc are competent designs - I know the Jello Slash to be one, but have considerably less reason to give those two companies the benefit of the doubt than I do in JL - then no.


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## Salad Fingers (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm sorry for going off the Macintosh main topic


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Salad Fingers said:


> ... and what is it that I'm looking for in a frequency response? For example, a JL 300/2 has a frequency response of
> 
> 5 Hz - 30 kHz (+0, -1dB)
> 
> ...


They won't sound any different at all, operating within their power limits.

They are both fine amps. Pick the one you want based on adequate power, features, size and cost.


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## Salad Fingers (Jun 14, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> I would use basically anything that I could reasonably assume to be of reasonable quality, reasonable reliability, and adequately powerful for the given application. There are exceptions, for instance *due to the idiocy/incompetency of their online representation I would not consider running an Arc, Zapco*, Image Dynamics, or Hybrid Audio Technologies amp, assuming those companies all marketed/made (typically more "marketed" than "made") amps. BUT, I would use the same amp as sold by one of those from another marketer/reseller. In fact, one of the amps in my current system, an elfAudio 2125X, is the same amp under the heatsink as the Arc KS 125.2 Mini...
> 
> (The flip side of that, the quality and integrity of their online representation makes me more inclined towards considering a JL or Infinity/JBL amp.)
> 
> ...



What do you mean by this?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Salad Fingers said:


> What do you mean by this?


I'll let him explain, but I feel similar in regards to some if not all of those brands he listed. There is a Zapco model that I'm kind of interested in though, the I-5100 7 channel amp.


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## Problemhouston (Apr 2, 2009)

At one point I was the proud owner of 6 McIntosh amps totaling more than 1k in rated 4 ohm power. Can I hear the difference in amps...no. I got the amps years ago because you got extra points for stuff like that when going through the Iasca/Usac lanes back in the day:laugh:. I did however grow fond of the design and timeless look of the amps. FWIW with all the amps I have owned over the years (Majestic, Sony, Rockford, Orion, Eclipse, Xtant, McIntosh, Audison & some I have forgotten) I have only had 2 amps fail on me one was an Xtant and the other was a McIntosh.

As far as sound as I have said I can’t hear the differences between amps. There are just too many things going on in the car for me to hear these differences. From road noise, the AC/heater blowing to the uncontrollable first reflection and all the hard surfaces throughout the cabin. Doing 70mph on a less than perfect highway is coloring the sound more than any amp can IMO.

I mostly buy stuff because I like it... Supposedly my watch can keep time more accurately than some other watches but I set the time 5 minuets ahead so that goes right out the window. It can also work so many meters underwater but I can’t swim. I bought an all wheel drive "ultimate Driving machine" and it has yet to see any snow on the road in two years and I can tell you that the car has not seen the plus side of .65 g’s cornering.

I am so disappointed with myself...


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

First, thanks to the OP for your post. Its great to question - especially pre-purchase! I have to admit that I am a Mc fan in a major way and always have been. I also have to admit that I went from a low end alpine amp straight to a MC440M with nothing in between (although I bought a ADS amp - I never got around to using it). As a result, I've not been able to do a real A-B test which is the ideal to distinguish what sounds best - as long as all else is identical. 

On the other hand, with home audio I put an yamaho reciever head to head with a hafler power amp running off its preamp outputs... pretty clear improvement to my ears... Amps one of the last places to invest if you have a tighter budgetm but there are still differences. Wouldn't just one of all the people who believe all amps sound the same have done a double blind test by now to prove it to the rest of us? Just one in all these years?? 

The differences are more subtle to be sure. Part of the issue is that there simply aren't great tests out there to tell us enough about the differences between one amp and another, electronically! In the past 20 years or so we've started measuring things like slew rates and damping factor - which while of arguable value - may tell us how quickly an amp responds to a signal & how well an amp can control a driver (minimizing the effects of inertia). Both of these are factors which could certainly make two amps SOUND different. Similarly, with speakers, we all hear the differences, but we can't measure everything that makes a tweeter sound airy, fast, light, warm, smooth, etc. When all else is equal, the subtle differences are the ones that set apart the good from the great...

How come so many competitors and people who stake more than just their listening pleasure on their equipment don't just all go out and buy your basic - cookie cutter cheapo amp brands? 

- *Looks/Reputation?* well you could build a hot little cover for them and amp up your mystery quotient by simply saying that you don't want others to know what you are using...

- *Durability?* buy three cheapies and build a quick swap over switch and you still come up cheaper than the best of amps (generally)

- *Power output and headroom?* Competitors in the SQ area rarely have any cause to get beyond a watt or two of output - so any low end amp capable of 15 watts gives a lot of head room at low listening levels.

With all that being said, for those big boys who have their own money, and want to spend more on an amp to give themselves the best chance at being happy with their sound - the used McAmp on ebay might be one of the best values available. Generally, these amps will last forever and if they break down, its $150 to fix most issues. Everyone else has covered all the other reasons to death... 

Sorry, its going to take a double blind listening test conducted either by myself or by an unbiased auditing firm to get me to believe that there are no sonic differences between some higher end amps and the average run of the mill K-mart blue light specials.

Choosing a McIntosh is a decision I doubt you'd ever regret, and if you did, you could sell it and recoup a high percentage of your investment, even in tough economic times. Thats my .02

Less

Oh - one mroe thing. MY first advice to anyone looking to better their system is to spend the most time and money on driver selection and installation. I used to read all the comments about installation and thought there wasn't as much to it as people made out, but I was wrong. Recent experience using the same drivers, but changing the enclosure, angles and baffle yielded tremendously better results. I'd spent many hours already trying to get it just right, and it didn't sound bad, but these changes took it from good to GREAT! I'm sure not an expert or a know it all - but this will be my first piece of advice to anyone looking for the best they can get out of their system for now on! Take the time in that area to experiment and you won't be sorry!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

less said:


> Wouldn't just one of all the people who believe *all* amps sound the same have done a double blind test by now to prove it to the rest of us? Just one in all these years??


A little time-consuming and expensive a test, wouldn't you say?  



> The differences are more subtle to be sure. Part of the issue is that there simply aren't great tests out there to tell us enough about the differences between one amp and another, electronically! In the past 20 years or so we've started measuring things like slew rates and damping factor - which while of arguable value - may tell us how quickly an amp responds to a signal & how well an amp can control a driver (minimizing the effects of inertia). Both of these are factors which could certainly make two amps SOUND different. Similarly, with speakers, we all hear the differences, but we can't measure everything that makes a tweeter sound airy, fast, light, warm, smooth, etc. When all else is equal, the subtle differences are the ones that set apart the good from the great...


We can measure everything.



> How come so many competitors and people who stake more than just their listening pleasure on their equipment don't just all go out and buy your basic - cookie cutter cheapo amp brands?


Wait...I'm curious...What do they have at stake?



> - *Power output and headroom?* Competitors in the SQ area rarely have any cause to get beyond a watt or two of output - so any low end amp capable of 15 watts gives a lot of head room at low listening levels.


"SQ" folks generally regard clipping as bad. So 15w wouldn't cut it for most people.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Testing a few amps shouldn't be that hard, really.

Right… measure the FR output (I have a thread on doing this with headunits; same thing with amplifiers, too, just watch the voltage). See if they are relatively the same. I doubt you’d hear more than 0.5dB difference, but you might.
Then level match them to the same output voltage using some tones. You could probably also get a good feel of how ‘matched’ they are throughout 20-20k simply by using various tones in 100hz increments (or higher resolution, if time permits) to make your own FR curve via Excel. It will be flawed somewhat, but should be within reason.

After you level match the outputs, start listening.

Make some switches so you don’t have to rely on ‘hearing memory’. Just A/B back and forth.
Or, hey, have your friend hold the switch and let him screw with your brain. 

Play familiar music, or ‘demo’ music (such as Chesky, IASCA setup, etc) and take notes. 
Also, take notes on noise floor and other things that music won’t necessarily point out.


A lot of time arguing something by many, when you could simply test the logic yourself using nothing more than a good DMM and some test tones. Then you don’t have to rely on what you read on the internet… and you also don’t have to rely on your pocketbook to get an ‘SQ amp’. 

Like I said, it won’t be perfect, but should be good enough for a simple test. 

Then draw your conclusions from that. 


-	Erin

*must state: This is my opinion… if you don’t agree with it, you’re a poopy head*


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Testing a few amps shouldn't be that hard, really.


A few amps? No. _All_ amps? Yeah, a little. 

If I were to test two amps -- say a Zapco and a Kenwood -- and everybody came to the test and nobody could hear the difference, would that demonstrate to everybody that "all amps sound the same"? Of course not. Some smart ass would then say, "Yeah but my Arc sounds waaay different."

Less is asking us to prove the null hypothesis. Realistically, it's the responsibility of the "some amps sound different" crowd to demonstrate that some amps sound different.

That's what I was saying.



> Right… measure the FR output (I have a thread on doing this with headunits; same thing with amplifiers, too, just watch the voltage). See if they are relatively the same. I doubt you’d hear more than 0.5dB difference, but you might.
> Then level match them to the same output voltage using some tones. You could probably also get a good feel of how ‘matched’ they are throughout 20-20k simply by using various tones in 100hz increments to make your own FR curve. It will be flawed somewhat, but should be within reason.
> 
> After you level match the outputs, start listening.
> ...


All this stuff has been done by lots of different people. When they don't arrive at the conclusion they want, they point out the flaws in the above test.




> A lot of time arguing something by many, when you could simply test the logic yourself using nothing more than a good DMM and some test tones. Then you don’t have to rely on what you read on the internet… and you also don’t have to rely on your pocketbook to get an ‘SQ amp’.


Ditto!



> *must state: This is my opinion… if you don’t agree with it, you’re a poopy head*


Ditto!


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

less said:


> First, thanks to the OP for your post. Its great to question - especially pre-purchase! I have to admit that I am a Mc fan in a major way and always have been. I also have to admit that I went from a low end alpine amp straight to a MC440M with nothing in between (although I bought a ADS amp - I never got around to using it). As a result, I've not been able to do a real A-B test which is the ideal to distinguish what sounds best - as long as all else is identical.
> 
> On the other hand, with home audio I put an yamaho reciever head to head with a hafler power amp running off its preamp outputs... pretty clear improvement to my ears... Amps one of the last places to invest if you have a tighter budgetm but there are still differences. Wouldn't just one of all the people who believe all amps sound the same have done a double blind test by now to prove it to the rest of us? Just one in all these years??


NOBODY believes all amps sound the same. The statement that "all amps sound the same" is ridiculously trivial to disprove. Read my earlier posts in this thread. 

Furthermore, what more "proof" is required than this : in all double blind tests where gain, power and frequency response are measured to be identical (within well-known limits of human hearing), then nobody has been able to tell a difference between amps? Surely, you made sure all these parameters were "equalized" in your home power amp comparison, right?


> The differences are more subtle to be sure. Part of the issue is that there simply aren't great tests out there to tell us enough about the differences between one amp and another, electronically! In the past 20 years or so we've started measuring things like slew rates and damping factor - which while of arguable value - may tell us how quickly an amp responds to a signal & how well an amp can control a driver (minimizing the effects of inertia). Both of these are factors which could certainly make two amps SOUND different. Similarly, with speakers, we all hear the differences, but we can't measure everything that makes a tweeter sound airy, fast, light, warm, smooth, etc. When all else is equal, the subtle differences are the ones that set apart the good from the great...


WAY wrong. We've known for _decades_ all the electrical tests that determine any & all factors that determine an amplifier's "sound". If I showed you a peer-reviewed technical paper OVER FIFTY YEARS OLD, from Sidney Corderman and Frank McIntosh no less, that talked about damping factor ... and it's inaudibility for factors greater than about 10 ... would you believe me then?

Delivering uniform power over a 20kHz bandwidth is not mysterious ... it's not even hard by modern standards. Once again, you _really_ need to read all the earlier posts in this thread.


> How come so many competitors and people who stake more than just their listening pleasure on their equipment don't just all go out and buy your basic - cookie cutter cheapo amp brands?
> 
> - *Looks/Reputation?* well you could build a hot little cover for them and amp up your mystery quotient by simply saying that you don't want others to know what you are using...
> 
> ...


*All amps do NOT sound the same.
All amps that measure the same, sound the same.*

If you wish to DISPROVE my second statement ... it's EASY. I've already asked for someone to explain the experiment (of course, no one has answered). All it takes is logic. Your home "amp swamp" doesn't disprove it.

Guys ... please use your brains and THINK about what I'm saying !!!

How can one DISPROVE this statement: Any two amps that measure the same in gain, power, frequency response, noise & distortion will be sonically indistinguishable. (we've already talked about how close they must be to be "the same" in these quantities).

PLEASE somebody design the experiment that will DISPROVE this statement. PLEASE somebody ... other than me ... offer some experiments that will NOT disprove this statement. All you need is LOGIC !!!!


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Testing a few amps shouldn't be that hard, really.
> 
> Right… measure the FR output (I have a thread on doing this with headunits; same thing with amplifiers, too, just watch the voltage). See if they are relatively the same. I doubt you’d hear more than 0.5dB difference, but you might.
> Then level match them to the same output voltage using some tones. You could probably also get a good feel of how ‘matched’ they are throughout 20-20k simply by using various tones in 100hz increments (or higher resolution, if time permits) to make your own FR curve via Excel. It will be flawed somewhat, but should be within reason.
> ...


Thank you 

Could somebody PLEASE explain why listening to Brand A in a buddy's car, and then listening to Brand B at a car stereo shop, does NOT qualify as test that can disprove the statement : all amps that measure the same, sound the same?

Does the difference even matter to anyone here?

But Mark is right ... this type of test has been done many times. The results are always the same : once gains & frequency response are matched for amps operating linearly within their power limits, all sonic differences vanish.

There simply are no "electronic mysteries" for delivering power to a loudspeaker over a 20kHz bandwidth.


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## death metal (Feb 8, 2010)

i think macs dont have enough headroom for what your paying and they sound too laid back


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## death metal (Feb 8, 2010)

they look pretty though... volt meterz


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

death metal said:


> i think macs dont have enough headroom for what your paying and they sound too laid back


Mmmkay, failing to grasp the thread is bad mmmkay?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Before anyone else posts please state if you are talking about the sonic quality of an amp, or the response curve of the amp.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> Before anyone else posts please state if you are talking about the sonic quality of an amp, or the response curve of the amp.


Wouldn't they be the same?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

death metal said:


> i think macs dont have enough headroom for what your paying and they sound too laid back


Any amp that produces the amount of power you want or need will have the same power whether it be McIntosh or Powerbass.

"Headroom" doesn't make sense in car audio. If by headroom you mean the power supply can produce power in excess of it's rated power during short bursts. I'll take a good regulated power supply any day with no headroom vs an amp that has a supply that can provide these short bursts or power.


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## death metal (Feb 8, 2010)

sqshoestring said:


> Before anyone else posts please state if you are talking about the sonic quality of an amp, or the response curve of the amp.


mmmkay... i owned the mcc404m. solid amp, built like a tank. i din't think it sounded better than my old dls a3. great amp, but i dont think the money i paid for it was justifiable.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> All this stuff has been done by lots of different people. When they don't arrive at the conclusion they want, they point out the flaws in the above test.


FLAWS!? What flaws?

How can a Sears DMM be wrong? 

All kidding aside, actually, for this kind of testing, it wouldn’t matter… you’re looking for relative measurements anyway. 

Given how EASY it is to level match an amp, I’m surprised more don’t do it if they really want to voice an amp. You don’t even have to check FR if you don’t want to. Although, if you _did_ hear a difference, I would then plot out the FR comparisons to see if I could tell _why_ I heard a difference. 

I agree, also, that the burden of proof should be on the user who’s claiming the difference. If, at the end of the day, you swear you heard a difference but can’t say why (and especially if you didn’t level match at least), then I would probably write you off. No offense, but I just don’t see a sound (nice pun!) reason. Does it mean you’re wrong? Not really. It just means I don’t believe you. 

User error… pwnt.



FWIW, I chose my amps based on size, efficiency, and the name (JL has always done me right regarding returns and tech support). I never heard them before I purchased them. :/


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Problemhouston said:


> I mostly buy stuff because I like it...


I don't know why everyone can't be as honest about their preferences and how they influence their behavior as you have been.



less said:


> On the other hand, with home audio I put an yamaho reciever head to head with a hafler power amp running off its preamp outputs... pretty clear improvement to my ears...


How precisely did you match levels? 

What was the difference in power level, the efficiency of your speakers, and the size of the room? 



less said:


> Wouldn't just one of all the people who believe all amps sound the same have done a double blind test by now to prove it to the rest of us? Just one in all these years??


There have been plenty of tests between individual amps that have shown no difference. In home audio, perhaps the most famous layperson-level test is the one conducted by Tom Nousaine where a (now-dead) Miami-area audio dealer named Steve Zipser failed to hear a difference _in his own premiere system_ between a Yamaha integrated flown down to Miami by TN and Zipser's own Pass Labs amp, which he had bragged was the "best-sounding" amp he had ever heard.



less said:


> How come so many competitors and people who stake more than just their listening pleasure on their equipment don't just all go out and buy your basic - cookie cutter cheapo amp brands?


Competitors are just marketing adjuncts for the industry, so we can safely ignore competitors' choices. And "people who make more than just their listening pleasure" implies people with a _financial stake,_ which implies a whole host of non-sonic considerations. So your point by including them is lost on me.



less said:


> Choosing a McIntosh is a decision I doubt you'd ever regret, and if you did, you could sell it and recoup a high percentage of your investment, even in tough economic times. Thats my .02


That all may be true regardless of the simple fact that they sound the same as other amps. Though I suspect in a decade the resale value of giant class AB amps will collapse, as everybody realizes the advantages of smaller, cooler-running class D amps.



less said:


> Oh - one mroe thing. MY first advice to anyone looking to better their system is to spend the most time and money on driver selection and installation.


You are totally correct, though I would add "signal processing/room correction" to the areas a rational resource-maximizer (who wants use said resources to maximize audio fidelity, as opposed to being primarily concerned with aesthetics or bragging rights or whatever) and should prioritize over boutique variants of commodity parts such as amps, digital sources, wires, etc.


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Ok I will throw a new one to the mix here.. Re , Tru Tech amps, there was a correction in a British audio magazine to their claimed Freq. Response on I think it was the B4100 Billet amps. or the TO3 or so.. later in the newer Billet series Tru modified their specs to reflect 30K hz as per the magazine test compared to the 50Khz spec'd by Tru....what about some of the Linear Power amps with quite broader Freq. range.. has anyone been able to confirm this...I know 20-20Khz is what matters .. I am speaking strictly specs and measuremtents here.. and yes I know there has been quite a controversy regarding the LP amps.. wondering if anyone had done a comparison between the Mac amps and LP....from what I heard the Macs are far more efficient.. is that true?


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

For me the biggest decision in an amp was aesthetics; if it looked good to me then it would generally appeal to me. Functionality was second as there are ways around this. 
Many people on here think I'm cracked because i value aesthetics so much. 

BTW- IIRC McIntosh played a huge role in the development of sonar and underwater listening devices for the US during WW2.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

To really match two amps in the manor we are talking about, it would take more than a DMM and a RTA. I would atleast want a Audio Precision 1 and a distortion meter. 



bikinpunk said:


> FLAWS!? What flaws?
> 
> How can a Sears DMM be wrong?
> 
> ...


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

maxwerks said:


> Ok I will throw a new one to the mix here.. Re , Tru Tech amps, there was a correction in a British audio magazine to their claimed Freq. Response on I think it was the B4100 Billet amps. or the TO3 or so.. later in the newer Billet series Tru modified their specs to reflect 30K hz as per the magazine test compared to the 50Khz spec'd by Tru....what about some of the Linear Power amps with quite broader Freq. range.. has anyone been able to confirm this...I know 20-20Khz is what matters .. I am speaking strictly specs and measuremtents here.. and yes I know there has been quite a controversy regarding the LP amps.. wondering if anyone had done a comparison between the Mac amps and LP....from what I heard the Macs are far more efficient.. is that true?


Depending on how it's actually implemented, trying to extend the FR much further beyond 20kHz can have consequences. Some amps actually spend effort on intentionally rolling off the high frequencies for the sake of stability.

Since we don't care about >20kHz, it shouldn't be a factor. And if manufacturers are trying to extend the FR out there, then I'm not sure I understand their perspective on design. Those sorts of efforts scream "dazzle them with ********" to me.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> To really match two amps in the manor we are talking about, it would take more than a DMM and a RTA. I would atleast want a Audio Precision 1 and a distortion meter.


I think you can go a long way with an o-scope or even a very simple difference circuit (think op amp + voltage divider ). If you can use something that can compute a FFT, then that could make life easier, but it's not absolutely necessary.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And I remembered you said something about Mathcad too.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Just put the oscope on the difference circuit and tune to match...

IMO - However, there are reasons for purchasing more expensive amps. For me it comes down to durability and stability. I would prefer to have an amp that performs the same everytime I turn it on for the next decade or so. That way I'm not chasing fluctuations in output back through the amp stages (complictes an already complicated scenario). But to reach these objectives, a good midline amp should do nicely.

and YES I do hope to keep this car through the next decade.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> And I remembered you said something about Mathcad too.


Matlab. Yeah, I use it for a lot of things, mostly at work. One of those things is as a digital o-scope. They've really improved their data acquisition engine in recent years, and so now you can do quite literally any analysis to the signal (if you can write code). And with the simulink software, you can do real-time analysis by dragging and dropping preassembled "blocks" that perform certain functions -- eg. FFT, statistics, and so forth.



> Just put the oscope on the difference circuit and tune to match...
> 
> IMO - However, there are reasons for purchasing more expensive amps. For me it comes down to durability and stability. I would prefer to have an amp that performs the same everytime I turn it on for the next decade or so. That way I'm not chasing fluctuations in output back through the amp stages (complictes an already complicated scenario). But to reach these objectives, a good midline amp should do nicely.


x2 And it hasn't specifically been mentioned here yet, but is there anything worse than jamming out to your music and then suddenly it gets quiet because the amp is in thermal protection? Back in the day, I used to have a Profile amp that did that on a regular basis.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Who all here owns an oscope, though?

My point was that it's relatively easy to do a _simple_ test with a DMM. 

You guys do have a point about clipping points, though. If I were doing the test, I would assume I'd have amps of near equal rated power; otherwise the whole premise is especially flawed if there's vast differences.
I would set the gain pot somewhere on the lower side, assuming that would keep me (the simple test fellow) running into clipping.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have an analog o-scope...never used it though cause I don't know how to.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

LOL.
Man, I still just turn knobs. 

Well, that also goes along with my point... those who have them might not know how to use one.


We could really get icky and bone pick the test method apart if you _really_ want to, but at the end of the day, for the DIY community I really do think all you need is a DMM.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Matlab.


While they're target use is completely different, I must say that I HATE matlab for calculations. I hate excel for the same reason... units.

Mathcad is lovely with units.  Especially once you realize that you shouldn't use relative temperatures for calculations!  

Back OT... you don't happen to have any sample code for the things you mentioned, do you? I'd be interested in it. Though, I would be subjecting myself to the hell that is matlab. :laugh:


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> While they're target use is completely different, I must say that I HATE matlab for calculations. I hate excel for the same reason... units.
> 
> Mathcad is lovely with units. Especially once you realize that you shouldn't use relative temperatures for calculations!
> 
> Back OT... you don't happen to have any sample code for the things you mentioned, do you? I'd be interested in it. Though, I would be subjecting myself to the hell that is matlab. :laugh:


Matlab is pretty high level already. To do an fft, you basically use the command fft(x) and then shift it to be readable with the fftshift command, or plot it logarithmically, etc. As far as sample code goes, if you can (ahem) get a copy of simulink, you can piece together some of the scope and fft (etc.) functions graphically, labview style. I was talking to thehatedguy in another thread about it being a potential alternative to the whole VST host/plugin route for sig processing, but that's another topic.

Anyway, there's also an oscope "demo" starting in version 7.2, which is actually a fully functional digital o-scope. If you have matlab, do a search in the help file for demos and it should be in there. I forget the command line name off hand.

I agree that Matlab is a bit cumbersome for some things. And I hate it (and excel) for databasing and that sort of thing, but I admit that I use them. I probably should use MySQL, but I'm lazy. But for signal processing and data analysis and even statistics, Matlab is my favorite.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

OT again...

I have a copy of it. It was required for some of my courses. I used it for heat transfer and system dynamics, mainly.
Most everything else, though, especially aero stability/control work I did on mathcad as coefficients changed so much and it was simply easier to keep up with what was what since mathcad has the ability to use greek letters. Seeing these was easier than trying to sort out coefficients in matlab. And I'm not talking Cd coefficients... I'm talking aileron coefficients being effected by a particular geometry elsewhere... often a coefficient title would be something to the tune 20+ characters. I couldn't keep that crap straight in my head when reading it on matlab (as our prof often used it).

I'll look into it's built in functions. Thanks.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Here is my question, if you have an amp that puts out identical specs to another. One amp is designed to handle 1 ohm loads and the other is designed for 4 ohm loads. If the specs are the same at the 1 ohm and 4 ohm loads respectively, is there going to be a sonic difference? 

Note: i understand this may more of a speaker related thing but I am curious. It gets talked about a bit on here and was curious regarding the the probable results and opinions.


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## Lars Ulriched (Oct 31, 2009)

damn im just about to buy a mcintosh amp...if all amp sounds the same...then ill abandon the mcintosh....they r too expensive....wat a waste of money...I love this thread...it save my money..ill deflect my spending on speakers instead...


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

Lars Ulriched said:


> damn im just about to buy a mcintosh amp...if all amp sounds the same...then ill abandon the mcintosh....they r too expensive....wat a waste of money...I love this thread...it save my money..ill deflect my spending on speakers instead...


I just bought two Mcintosh amps, I have few Linear Powers, a couple of A/D/S amps..I am about to start the new install ..I am intent on doing a comparison...strictly soundwise, I am not an engineer nor an electronics expert nor do I have any tools to do measurements.. I will do so on a strictly biased EAR basis and will report my impression. Of course I can only do so much as far as matching outputs of the different amps, but then again I am not a professional ...I am simply an enthusiast. 

FWIW, I have never inspected a Mcintosh amp before, once I did, there is mistaking quality construction once you see it, there is certain quality & craftsmanship, in a no nonsense understated down to business that is so evident.....thats the best I can comment on so far.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

maxwerks said:


> I just bought two Mcintosh amps, I have few Linear Powers, a couple of A/D/S amps..I am about to start the new install ..I am intent on doing a comparison...strictly soundwise, I am not an engineer nor an electronics expert nor do I have any tools to do measurements.. I will do so on a strictly biased EAR basis and will report my impression. Of course I can only do so much as far as matching outputs of the different amps, but then again I am not a professional ...I am simply an enthusiast.
> 
> FWIW, I have never inspected a Mcintosh amp before, once I did, there is mistaking quality construction once you see it, there is certain quality & craftsmanship, in a no nonsense understated down to business that is so evident.....thats the best I can comment on so far.


Make sure your comparison is in a controlled double blind fashion. If not, it is worthless. No offense.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Lars Ulriched said:


> damn im just about to buy a mcintosh amp...if all amp sounds the same...then ill abandon the mcintosh....they r too expensive....wat a waste of money...I love this thread...it save my money*..ill deflect my spending on speakers instead*...


Then deflect again and spend a little less on speakers and a little more on install.

Instead of spending $500 on tweeters and mounting them in a less them optimum location. Spend $200 and $300 on mounting them properly where they sound better.


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## duckymcse (Mar 15, 2009)

I had both the Alpine PDX 4.150 and McIntosh MC404. Once I heard the MC404 in action, I sold my PDX 4.150. If all amp sound the same, I would have keep the PDX 4.150 which save me about $800 and space in my car.
The MC404 just sound so clean, detail, dynamic and overall musicality is top notch. I had the MC404 for about 4 months now and never been so happier despite the high price I pay for it. 



Lars Ulriched said:


> damn im just about to buy a mcintosh amp...if all amp sounds the same...then ill abandon the mcintosh....they r too expensive....wat a waste of money...I love this thread...it save my money..ill deflect my spending on speakers instead...


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## duckymcse (Mar 15, 2009)

Make sure you take the time to adjust the Frequency and Level EQ knob. Even a slight adjustment can change the overall SQ.



maxwerks said:


> I just bought two Mcintosh amps, I have few Linear Powers, a couple of A/D/S amps..I am about to start the new install ..I am intent on doing a comparison...strictly soundwise, I am not an engineer nor an electronics expert nor do I have any tools to do measurements.. I will do so on a strictly biased EAR basis and will report my impression. Of course I can only do so much as far as matching outputs of the different amps, but then again I am not a professional ...I am simply an enthusiast.
> 
> FWIW, I have never inspected a Mcintosh amp before, once I did, there is mistaking quality construction once you see it, there is certain quality & craftsmanship, in a no nonsense understated down to business that is so evident.....thats the best I can comment on so far.


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## gitmobass (Nov 7, 2009)

I've been wondering since I got half way through this thread, why are low end amps considered low end if they'll put out power without clipping/distorting? 
For instance, are Boss amps bad because of anything internal, or simply because they overrate the amps and have horrible cosmetics? 
Thanks for all the info in this thread BTW, very good read!


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## LegendJeff (Jun 28, 2009)

gitmobass said:


> I've been wondering since I got half way through this thread, why are low end amps considered low end if they'll put out power without clipping/distorting?
> For instance, are Boss amps bad because of anything internal, or simply because they overrate the amps and have horrible cosmetics?
> Thanks for all the info in this thread BTW, very good read!


Haha, well maybe we're all biased

But really most of it is probably because they overrate specs.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

gitmobass said:


> I've been wondering since I got half way through this thread, why are low end amps considered low end if they'll put out power without clipping/distorting?
> For instance, are Boss amps bad because of anything internal, or simply because they overrate the amps and have horrible cosmetics?
> Thanks for all the info in this thread BTW, very good read!


There a lot of amps I'd use, and there a lot of amps I won't. Some of the reasons for the amps I won't use is that I simply don't trust them, like Boss. Some amps I won't use because they look retarded, some amps I won't use because there is something about the brand I just don't like.

There are so many amps out there though, so I still have plenty to choose from.

I won't pick an amp because of it's "SQ" even if I have some rather dumb reasons not to choose certain amps.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

gitmobass said:


> I've been wondering since I got half way through this thread, why are low end amps considered low end if they'll put out power without clipping/distorting?
> For instance, are Boss amps bad because of anything internal, or simply because they overrate the amps and have horrible cosmetics?
> Thanks for all the info in this thread BTW, very good read!


They might be more prone to noise than other amps. They'll probably thermally shut down (or cease working altogether) at a higher rate than better constructed amps. Terminals may break or strip out (although this isn't particular to just low-end amps).

On the other hand, lots of people have good luck with low end amps. Several years ago, I was happy as a pig in **** with a Jensen amp I once had. It bought it to replace a Kenwood amp that had blown that was also "low end". Then I supplemented the Jensen with an Alphasonik, and that lasted forever.

Lots of people just avoid these brand names because...well...the names are stamped on top.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> They might be more prone to noise than other amps. They'll probably thermally shut down (or cease working altogether) at a higher rate than better constructed amps. Terminals may break or strip out (although this isn't particular to just low-end amps).
> 
> On the other hand, lots of people have good luck with low end amps. Several years ago, I was happy as a pig in **** with a Jensen amp I once had. It bought it to replace a Kenwood amp that had blown that was also "low end". Then I supplemented the Jensen with an Alphasonik, and that lasted forever.
> 
> Lots of people just avoid these brand names because...well...the names are stamped on top.


My third hand twice removed jensen story is this. 

I have a friend who ran a Jensen amp and tried to compete with it. When the name plate was visible, he was docked points. When he got wise he flipped the amp and placed a plexi panel over the internals etc. Suddenly the loss in points disappeared. 

Just because it is a "lower" brand does not mean they sound bad. A lot of it is just perception.


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## k-ink (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm going to sell my expensive old school amps and get a $10 digital korean one instead. In fact I may do the same for my HU and speakers while I'm at it. Pass the bong dudes.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

k-ink said:


> I'm going to sell my expensive old school amps and get a $10 digital korean one instead. In fact I may do the same for my HU and speakers while I'm at it. Pass the bong dudes.


The funny part is that if you did all those things, the difference you'd hear still probably wouldn't be as significant as if you moved your tweeters two inches to the right.

In my view, the moral of the story here is that you should spend your time, effort, and money in a manner proportional to the potential outcome. This generally means that tweaking your install, rather than just the equipment in it, should take up the bulk of your resources. I would estimate, by being around car audio forums for a long time, that upwards of 90% of the people involved in these discussions don't do that. It's easier (and much more fun!) to "research" who makes the next best bling equipment, and then go out and swap out your gear for the new ****. But almost a pointless exercise.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

k-ink said:


> I'm going to sell my expensive old school amps and get a $10 digital korean one instead. In fact I may do the same for my HU and speakers while I'm at it. Pass the bong dudes.


Back in the 90's I built a system using all the "best stuff" the pro's were using. Alpine head unit, MB Quart Reference series components, JL 10W1 subs, 3 Audio Control processors and two PPI Art series Amps, an A200 and A600.2.

It sounded decent, but no where near on the level of the pro systems.

A few years ago I did another system, a Pioneer 880 deck, Pioneer 720 mids, a/d/s/ tweeters an RE Audio SE12 sub and two JBL amps, a GTO 75.4 II and a 600.1 II.

That system smoked the first one by far. Why would it you ask? I mean surely the PPI amps ($1000 for the pair) are far better than fairly cheap JBL amps ($350 for the pair). The point is, the system far out performed the other, not because of equipment choices but because the install and tuning were much better. I had less gear, *way* less money spent on the gear and the system destroyed the older one.

It's simple, install and tuning trump brand choice 100 times over every single time.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> The funny part is that if you did all those things, the difference you'd hear still probably wouldn't be as significant as if you moved your tweeters two inches to the right.
> 
> In my view, the moral of the story here is that you should spend your time, effort, and money in a manner proportional to the potential outcome. This generally means that *tweaking your install,* rather than just the equipment in it, should take up the bulk of your resources. I would estimate, by being around car audio forums for a long time, that upwards of 90% of the people involved in these discussions don't do that. It's easier (and much more fun!) to "research" who makes the next best bling equipment, and then go out and swap out your gear for the new ****. But almost a pointless exercise.


How true, you can make a very nice system out of cheap stuff from here and there. It may take longer, more swaps (to find the right stuff, in practice I swapped tweeters the most), but I've done it many times. I will say swapping is needed sometimes, however that is after I changed mounting/xover/maybe enclosure/and any other means of tuning and just couldn't get the thing to work how I wanted. And maybe in one install you really want the tweeter right there, so you try a bunch of tweeters trying to get that spot to work. Sometimes it will, sometimes not.

I love it when I'm looking for drivers and they say this set is used in some expensive home speaker, and they don't cost that much. Now given you have to tailor your stuff to the install, just the same speakers are not rocket science just like amps are not. You find what works for your use and use it. I would say you must have a good HU, not the best, but one that has a good clean output.

I love my old school amps, that is what I normally use other than for subs. I put them in and they work just like last time. One of my favorites is a mid 80s amp, now I have some larger ones like it to try. Who knows if they work the same. Sure I can and have used plenty of other stuff, but a few I never get rid of for good reason, they just work the way I like. This year should be fun, once I swap my subs I'll set up so I can swap amps easily. All I can fit now is the 5ch. I will do some testing and try to see how power tests and looking at the clipping compares to how it runs in the car. Maybe I can test response too but not sure, though I doubt that would tell me much.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

MACS said:


> You might have some competition for that title, at least on the car audio side of things .


they make me happy in the pants for both home and car...


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## td1200 (Feb 13, 2010)

Because of the name, many peeple believe that the sound quality should be superb. It's the amp that many people who can afford will try.
Also people know Mcintosh more than Brax or Sinfoni 

Many friends of mine have tried the Mcintosh amps, mostly the old MC model not the new MCC. They said it's good but not as good as expected, especially in the place that imported items are very expensive like my country. They had been using for a while
and switch to other brands. 

I think car stereo or home stereo is based on the preference, like or dislike.
As long as we ejoy listening to the music from the system, that's it.


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

I tried, but I just couldn't do it... 

60 years ago the worlds experts on the human body "manipulated" ladies to cure their "hysteria" and 60 or so years before that, they finally discovered that bleeding people and leeching maybe didn't work like they'd hoped because for some reason the bad stuff still managed to stay inside.

I say that to say this... while its very much acknowledged that the differences between any two amps are minimal - probably even quite minimal in most cases - its certainly not a sure thing that we know all we need to know about measuring amplifiers. It seems like some of you believe that there will never be a discernable sound improvement through amplifier technology - and that we already know all we need to know. Yup - we may know a lot, but perhaps the only thing I believe is a "universal truth" in the world is that - we don't know it all and we'll keep learning. While these new technologies won't 

I also have to say that I think the proven consistant winning competitors out there are among the best sources for information when chosing products or regarding installation options. I say this because: 1. These guys want to win...right? 2. If you want to win, do you allow yourself to be sponsored by a product that you think won't get you there? No. 3. These are the people that have seen and personally evaluated more products than nearly any of us (accepting maybe Azgot... Bikin... and maybe even me with drivers in the past few years). They've watched what makes winner win and heard more good and bad sounding systems than most anyone out there. They have more at stake because they pack up their project car and drag it around the country working on it day and night over many years... you don't do that unless you have some real passion. Now rest assured, I want a great sounding system... but that is in a different class. Its easy to put down the value of competitors when they happen to be fully paid buy people who manufacture their OIL or some half essential items... but a little less so when they get discounts instead of a full ride!

We live in a very complex world... the fact that solid objects are actually made up mostly of empty space and the solid feel we sense is only the bond that holds them together - and - 13 dimensions, dark matter, elements that only come into being when we think about them.... those sorts of things make me pretty sure that there isn't much that we really know all we need to know about in this world.

As always, you are entitled to your opinons.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

less said:


> I tried, but I just couldn't do it...
> 
> 60 years ago the worlds experts on the human body "manipulated" ladies to cure their "hysteria" and 60 or so years before that, they finally discovered that bleeding people and leeching maybe didn't work like they'd hoped because for some reason the bad stuff still managed to stay inside.
> 
> ...


less ... i understand and respect what you are saying. But let me ask you a hypothetical question :

If I heard someone say that he saw an anvil fall faster than a hammer (in a vacuum, same distance from the mass-center of earth) the other day, should I "believe" him? After all, the final word on gravitational fields has yet to be written. Until we have a quantum theory of gravity, that converges towards general relativity on a large (i.e., galactic) scale ... is he "entitled to his own opinion"?

After all, he SAW it with his OWN EYES !!!

What could be a better authority than that?


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

I guess you will have to decide that yourself Lycan. Apparently in your world, you've decided this is something that would be impossible, but in my world, I'm aware of a few people who believe that anti-gravity fields can already be made which can be directed and focused at will...

I agree that their are universal truths though I just don't think we've reached the point of universal truth with amplifiers and you chose a poor scenario. Yes, Lycan, there is a real truth in the world and some things are LOGICAL, some things are impossible and others are not. As to where we are right now with amplifiers - you aer entitled to your own opinion.

Less


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Oh, and even though I probably don't have the funds to buy all the McProducts that some of you have - those big blue meters set on a black field make my power cord (or is it power chord) dance like a king cobra like some Indian Swami is playing a flute to get it to rise from its basket!!

Its hard to corner the market on McPassion.

Less


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

less said:


> I say that to say this... while its very much acknowledged that the differences between any two amps are minimal - probably even quite minimal in most cases - its certainly not a sure thing that we know all we need to know about measuring amplifiers.


Whether one believes that or not - I don't care one way or the other - it is _completely irrelevant_ to the issue of "amp sound."

_Whether or not_ our scientific instruments can measure everything there is to measure about an amp, there's only one instrument that matters: *the human ear.* The only way to test whether the ear can discern a difference is to remove all the other variables and just test the ear. That is to say, make the test blind, and remove anything else that could result in a difference (such as level differences.)

Under those conditions, amps (unless broken or designed to be non-high-fidelity) have repeatedly been shown to be commodity parts.



less said:


> I also have to say that I think the proven consistant winning competitors out there are among the best sources for information when chosing products or regarding installation options.


What the **** does people dicking around in parked cars have to do with a normal person listening to music while driving? "Competitions" can only tell you who's sponsoring a given competitor.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

less said:


> I guess you will have to decide that yourself Lycan. Apparently in your world, you've decided this is something that would be impossible, but in my world, I'm aware of a few people who believe that anti-gravity fields can already be made which can be directed and focused at will...
> 
> I agree that their are universal truths though I just don't think we've reached the point of universal truth with amplifiers and you chose a poor scenario. Yes, Lycan, there is a real truth in the world and some things are LOGICAL, some things are impossible and others are not. As to where we are right now with amplifiers - you aer entitled to your own opinion.
> 
> Less


I'll summarize your view : Science doesn't know _everything_, therefore it's valid to doubt _anything_.

The problem with that conclusion, is that it's falsely comprehensive, as well as prohibitively non-productive. It recognizes no advancement that _increases_ our understanding of the universe. The truth is, our understanding of the universe _does_ increase everyday ... but just because there's much more progress required to understand "everything", does mean that what we understand so far ... or, all that we've already accomplished .. is rubbish.

*Delivering an electrical signal to a loudspeaker over a 20kHz bandwidth is one of those things that science understands quite well ... and it's not a matter of opinion or belief. All tests where extraneous variables are well-controlled verify this conclusion. In short : supported by science, verified by observation. No "wiggle room" left for mysteries.*

Regarding the observation by someone that an anvil fell faster than a hammer, my response would be something like this :

Describe the experiment that led you to that conclusion:
1. Were they dropped from the same height? 
Typical answer : "Why does that matter? Maybe it matters in your "lab", but in the "real world" hammers & anvils drop from _different_ heights all the time!"
2. Did you measure the fall time in each case with the same, accurate watch?
Typical answer : "Maybe you have fancy test equipment in your lab, but in the "real" world i TRUST my EYES! That's all I need to KNOW that the anvil fell FASTER."

Your response would be : 

I BELIEVE you. You probably had a anti-gravity machine operating nearby, makes perfect sense to me. I choose to BELIEVE you, because science doesn't know everything!


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

> is he "entitled to his own opinion"?


An old one that I seem to use all too regularly is "you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong"

Another would be "each person believes their opinion to be correct, else they change that opinion"

Entertaining thread 

(one last: "once you are reduced to profanity in your argument, you have lost")


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

*DS21 -* 


The blind testing compared using the human ear is something that I totally acknowledge as being the only relevant way to judge the - amps sound alike - question. I've not seen these results - but I'll go on the assumption that they exist until I can see for myself. Well said... Naturally, its entirely possible that an amp could be made in the future that would sound better than another though, right?


As for your second point - I guess I'd never considered changing my eq to account for road noise. Am I missing out on a common practice here? Does ones car sound dramatically different when driving than when at rest? Personally, when my car sounds good at rest - it also sounds good while rolling... so I guess I don't see where the fact that they compete while in park makes a difference. Does anyone out there really readjust their cars settings to compensate for road noise??


*



"Competitions" can only tell you who's sponsoring a given competitor.

Click to expand...

 *
I might be missing something here... I'm sure there are guys who join Team Whatever for reasons other than Whatever, Inc making the best equipment, but I was really refering to the very top competitors that lead the way for others - and not those who follow the pack.​
I'm fortunate to have a friend who has shared a lot of very valueable product and installation information with me, which has resulted in my system sounding far better. Sponsorship doesn't seem to impact the information this individual shares with me - and yes, I do know the companies that sponsor him. 

I didn't mean to imply that one should buy an entire line of products because a particular competitor has their sticker on his ride... but that in talking with experienced competitors, one can learn a lot. I have. Most of these people started competing because they had a passion from their hobby and many still have great systems in their daily drivers. I can't imagine dismissing their input simply because they might get discounts on certain amplifiers or speaker systems.​
*LYCAN -* 
I really don't think you are qualified to predict my answer to a question and I sure wouldn't presume to try to answer in your stead either. 

As to your assumptions of the current state of our knowledge - I think its fairly clear that we disagree and no amount of back and forth is going to change it. You believe that we can't learn more or make better amps. I'm not arguing that we have a pretty good grip on things... just that we can't possibly know what we don't know! 

No amount of jumping up and down and repeating ourselves is going to change anything, and its clearly not helping the OP at this point. Apologies to the OP. 

Edited addition - I'm just still lgiggling about your thinking MY statements are falsely comprehensive... 

:dead_horse:


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

less said:


> *DS21 -*
> 
> 
> The blind testing compared using the human ear is something that I totally acknowledge as being the only relevant way to judge the - amps sound alike - question. I've not seen these results - but I'll go on the assumption that they exist until I can see for myself. Well said... Naturally, its entirely possible that an amp could be made in the future that would sound better than another though, right?
> ...


less ... i agree that our knowledge will change, hopefully improve. But the _scientific method_ that lights the way, will not. Nor will the simple logic that says, if two amplifiers deliver the _same_ voltage to a pair of loudspeaker terminals, the loudspeaker has no choice but to sound the _same_.

My apologies to the OP also.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Lets not fuzzy up the argument here; a higher quality sounding amp can _not _be made. They are already far beyond the capability of our hearing. Sure amps sound different, but it is not a question of better it is only a question of different. Should that slight 'different' fit your install better then yes it will sound better in your car. If the amp sounds great, then maybe the designer had the same car as you....or the planets were aligned when you decided to buy that model amp. Aside from all that, drivers and EQs will change the sound of your system magnitudes more. I used to swap amps a lot when I did not use an EQ in my car, and swapped drivers and install a lot more than amps.

Back to the OP, the real issue is quality of build. You can buy a Cobalt SS and they are cheap and pretty fast, as fast as much more expensive cars. But what kind of car do you want?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

less said:


> *DS21 -*
> 
> 
> Naturally, its entirely possible that an amp could be made in the future that would sound better than another though, right?


Yes, in that I don't doubt that in the future amps will be more compact, more efficient, and more powerful for a given cost. Also, I believe DSP's with high-quality auto-calibration routines will eventually become commonly built into amps, just as Class D amps are now becoming common - I was railing about the primitivism of car-fi manufacturers in refusing to embrace Class D technology on fora back in 2000 and 2001! That will lead to real improvements in everyone's system. And yet, for the first time since probably the 1970s there will once again be differences in the sound of amps. They will, however, be because of target curves in the DSP and measurement techniques, not "amp sound."

But qua amps, will there be "better-sounding" ones? No. Just as recent studies have shown that, assuming the mix has not been altered, hi-rez digital (SACD, specifically) does not sound any different from bog standard redbook CD (16-bit, 44.1kHz).



less said:


> [*]As for your second point - I guess I'd never considered changing my eq to account for road noise. Am I missing out on a common practice here? Does ones car sound dramatically different when driving than when at rest?


Both my Citroën DS and Miata do. (The Miata, of course, sounds vastly different top down, ragtop up, and hardtop on as well.) I suppose a Mercedes S-Class or Lexus LS may not.



less said:


> , but I was really refering to the very top competitors that lead the way for others - and not those who follow the pack.


I think the teaching value of "competition" is massively overblown. Competitors are really just marketers, and one can rarely learn anything except for a given company's intended message from a marketer. Moreover, they are thoroughly infected with groupthink and moronic conventional wisdom. (See, e.g., ankle-biting speaker locations.) More often than not, one should look at what "competitors" are doing and do something near the opposite.

Personally, I learned far more useful information by studying the design of the OEM Bose system (crappy as it sounded) in my Miata than I have from the sum total of every car audio competitor in the history of car audio competitions. I think we should be looking to what the serious car audio professionals - which is to say, the OEM design-houses at Harman, et al. who have invested large sums in research, maintain vast databases of measurements, and employ people who are trained engineers - are doing, and seek to emulate the same but with parts less constrained by cost so as to effect greater dynamic range, bandwidth, and so on. The fact of the matter is that top-tier OEM systems today sound far better than what the typical shadetree competitor could ever hope to achieve.


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

lycan said:


> less ... i agree that our knowledge will change, hopefully improve. But the _scientific method_ that lights the way, will not. Nor will the simple logic that says, if two amplifiers deliver the _same_ voltage to a pair of loudspeaker terminals, the loudspeaker has no choice but to sound the _same_.
> 
> My apologies to the OP also.


How do the reported sonic differences between vacuum tube amps and transistor amps fit with this? HAve there been double blind tests between comparable tube amps and transistor amplifiers that show that they sound the same? The whole tube amp consideration didn't really occur to me until today - and now I simply HAVE to go do listening tests on my own. Its hard to imagine that tube and transistor amps are indistinguishable and marketing alone created this myth that is so ingrained in our hobby that companies even make products that try to emulate the "tube sound" (e.g., Tube Driver Blue).

If tube amps sound different, then the "all amps sound the same" argument bites the dust. Naturally, so does the "we know how to measure everything we need to know to make amps sound good" argument. The idea that we can't possibly create a better sounding amp is out the window too.

If most people can hear the difference and prefer the tube sound, then being able to measure and quantify what makes them sound better would allow engineers to experiment and use quantifiable test results (scientific method) to build amplifiers that sound better - wether building on old technologies or creating entirely new ones. 

Add to that the new classes of amps(D,T,H, Etc.)... some companies are only making their sub amps in those classes and sticking with class a/b variants for amplifying signals that don't require as much power. Surely, if all amps sounded the same - there would be no reason (marketing aside - and marketing would probably encourage them to WANT to make the new classes for all of their products) to not make amps that were more efficient and produced less heat instead of a/b's.

Voltage isn't the only consideration - and that has been covered ad nauseum. 



> a higher quality sounding amp can not be made. They are already far beyond the capability of our hearing


They are only beyond the capability of our hearing in the areas that we commonly measure! For example, if tube amps sound perceivably better (with better meaning: closer to the sound of a live performance or closer to the sound that one would hear in the recording studio during a performance) and we can't yet measure what creates that result, then we clearly haven't exceeded the capability of our hearing... we've only exceeded our ability to determine the aspects of the amplifiers output that results in these differences. 

It is back to the drawing board for me... and now my curiosity is up as well. For my own sake, I will have to actually spend some time looking for these double blind tests to find out more. While we may get frustrated with these kinds of threads, they can certainly help us learn and grow. I don't know about the rest of you, but that is one of the biggest reasons I come here - aside from occassionally finding a neat new toy - and I really need to stop looking at this thread though... we should either create a new one to continue this or just let it die. I'd have done that but the tube amp issue grabbed me back in - (sorry) :laugh: 

Less


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

less said:


> Does anyone out there really readjust their cars settings to compensate for road noise??


You can put me down on that list.
Road noise, while subdued quite drastically in my car from its OEM version, is still pulling away from the upper midbass to mid subbass. If I used the same setting for driving as I do 'sitting', you have a bloated bottom end.

Maybe others don't do this, but I do. Frankly, it's just a curve geared toward the road noise element.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

less said:


> If tube amps sound different, then the "all amps sound the same" argument bites the dust. Naturally, so does the "we know how to measure everything we need to know to make amps sound good" argument. The idea that we can't possibly create a better sounding amp is out the window too.


Faulty logic. If an amplifier, say a tube amp, colors the signal (and is therefore not "blameless"), then we can measure precisely how it colors the signal. You can then mimic that response perfectly with DSP. It may not be trivial to do so, because there may be a lot of nonlinearities to model. But make no mistake about it -- we can measure every last one of them. It just may take a lot of parameters and a more elaborate model than we're willing to deal with. Sometimes just building the "special" amp is a lot easier than mimicking it. 

There are many folks, though, that believe that amps shouldn't color the sound, and that their sole job is to amplify signal (the "straight wire with gain" crowd). They think that all signal processing should be done with signal processors and that the rest of the equipment should leave the signal as unaltered as possible (except in gain). I, personally, don't really adhere to that philosophy. I see nothing wrong with using sonically imperfect amplifiers to achieve the response you're after.

Anyway, I think it's really hard in the car audio arena to find such amplifiers.



> If most people can hear the difference and prefer the tube sound, then being able to measure and quantify what makes them sound better would allow engineers to experiment and use quantifiable test results (scientific method) to build amplifiers that sound better - wether building on old technologies or creating entirely new ones.


They do. For something like a decade, Bob Carver marketed a solid state line that tried to mimic tube sound. There was a link earlier that touched on this.



> Add to that the new classes of amps(D,T,H, Etc.)... some companies are only making their sub amps in those classes and sticking with class a/b variants for amplifying signals that don't require as much power. Surely, if all amps sounded the same - there would be no reason (marketing aside - and marketing would probably encourage them to WANT to make the new classes for all of their products) to not make amps that were more efficient and produced less heat instead of a/b's.


The reason all things are done in this industry is marketing. Companies don't care so much about logic -- they care about the bottom line. Even if they believe that their class D offerings sound the same as their class A/B offerings, they'll still manufacture and market the class A/B amps *because there's a market*. They'd be stupid not to. If customers wanted class C amps for some stupid reason, someone would start making those too. It's about what the people want.



> Voltage isn't the only consideration - and that has been covered ad nauseum.


Where? 



> They are only beyond the capability of our hearing in the areas that we commonly measure! For example, if tube amps sound perceivably better (with better meaning: closer to the sound of a live performance or closer to the sound that one would hear in the recording studio during a performance) and we can't yet measure what creates that result, then we clearly haven't exceeded the capability of our hearing... we've only exceeded our ability to determine the aspects of the amplifiers output that results in these differences.


If a listener can't discern differences, he can't discern differences.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> I think the teaching value of "competition" is massively overblown. Competitors are really just marketers, and one can rarely learn anything except for a given company's intended message from a marketer. Moreover, they are thoroughly infected with groupthink and moronic conventional wisdom. (See, e.g., ankle-biting speaker locations.) More often than not, one should look at what "competitors" are doing and do something near the opposite.
> 
> Personally, I learned far more useful information by studying the design of the OEM Bose system (crappy as it sounded) in my Miata than I have from the sum total of every car audio competitor in the history of car audio competitions. I think we should be looking to what the serious car audio professionals - which is to say, the OEM design-houses at Harman, et al. who have invested large sums in research, maintain vast databases of measurements, and employ people who are trained engineers - are doing, and seek to emulate the same but with parts less constrained by cost so as to effect greater dynamic range, bandwidth, and so on. The fact of the matter is that top-tier OEM systems today sound far better than what the typical shadetree competitor could ever hope to achieve.


Jay, I agree with you on most everything you say (although sometimes more abrupt than I would put it ), but I disagree with you on the competition side of things.
While, I understand exactly what you’re saying, I don’t think it’s fair to cast that shadow for all competitors. I know quite a few guys who are sponsored competitors. One good friend of mine who is sponsored by a few companies and he’s never pushed any of their products on me. Never talked about their products to me unless I brought it up or unless he’s telling me about some new gear (though, not new to the market) he’s getting. He’s a prime example of learning from a competitor. Vast knowledge, and a great ear for things. Sitting in the car with him, and chatting on the phone with him has helped me get my system much further along than it would be if I had not had his input. And I still do not run any gear from his sponsors. 

There are many competitors who share the same helpfulness initiative and do not have the ‘you gotta buy the stuff I run’ mentality. There are, naturally, a few d-bags and bloated egos, sure. But luckily, at least as far as I’ve seen, they are the minority. 

Since you brought up JBL/Harman, I'd like you to consider the competitors associated with that company and the way they did installs back in the 90s that are just now starting to really pick up within the forums. I don’t know those guys personally, but can say for sure that they had some innovative (at least in terms of the standard car audio installs) ideas and have provided the math to back it up. Most notably is the midbass mounted in the rear concept. 

The point I’m striving to make is that not all competitors are bad and not all are sheep. I hope to attend a few comps myself this year, and hopefully you wouldn’t say that I fall into the category you’ve described above.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

less said:


> How do the reported sonic differences between vacuum tube amps and transistor amps fit with this? HAve there been double blind tests between comparable tube amps and transistor amplifiers that show that they sound the same? The whole tube amp consideration didn't really occur to me until today - and now I simply HAVE to go do listening tests on my own. Its hard to imagine that tube and transistor amps are indistinguishable and marketing alone created this myth that is so ingrained in our hobby that companies even make products that try to emulate the "tube sound" (e.g., Tube Driver Blue).
> 
> If tube amps sound different, then the "all amps sound the same" argument bites the dust. Naturally, so does the "we know how to measure everything we need to know to make amps sound good" argument. The idea that we can't possibly create a better sounding amp is out the window too.
> 
> ...


THIS POST is exactly why people who don't even begin to understand science, are in no position to criticize it.

Tube amps can, but not necessarily do, sound "different" for reasons that are VERY well understood and explained by simple electrical theory. They do NOT sound different because of some yet-to-be-discovered mysteries of modern science! LOL !!!!

Tube amps can sound different because of LARGER harmonic distortion, possibly larger noise floor, and perhaps most importantly ... LARGER output impedance (from the output transformer and lower levels of negative feedback) which changes their FREQUENCY RESPONSE ... yes, that means the VOLTAGE delivered to the loudspeaker as a function of frequency ... when driving reactive loads (like loudspeakers).

And YES .. it DOES all come down to voltage at the speaker terminals, as a function of frequency.

"Wait a second .. what about CURRENT? Doesn't that matter?" OF COURSE IT MATTERS. But if you understand the most basic application of Ohm's Law, you'll understand that the amp (as a voltage source) sets the voltage, and the load (the speaker) determines the current. If the amp can't deliver the required current, the VOLTAGE has no choice but to collapse. In short, two amps can't deliver the same voltage to a load, without ALSO delivering the same CURRENT to the load.

"What about frequency response? That's not voltage?" Wrong again. Voltage versus frequency is EXACTLY and IDENTICALLY the frequency response.

*Two amplifiers cannot POSSIBLY deliver the SAME voltage to a loudspeaker, and result in the loudspeaker sounding DIFFERENT*.

PLEASE guys, i'm BEGGING you ... understand electronics ... at least, understand OHM'S LAW for crying out loud ... before you criticize it and falsely proclaim its shortcomings !!!!!

And how's this for logic : "Why build _more efficient_ Class D amps, if they sound the same as Class AB amps ???" Ummm ... do you REALLY not understand the benefits of IMPROVED EFFICIENCY, in an amp that sounds indistinguishable from another? You might BUY IT for the VERY REASON that it has better efficiency, while delivering the same voltage to the loudspeaker terminals as a LESS EFFICIENT amp!!! We don't build Class D amps because they sound better, or sound worse. We build them because they sound indistinguishable, and do it WITH BETTER EFFICIENCY !!!!!

"Then why not build ALL amps with newer classes that are more efficient"? Simple : there have been new improvements in Class D amps that allow them to work over the entire audio bandwidth without increased noise & distortion at higher frequencies. In other words, it's only been recently that we have the technology to deliver the same power, gain, frequency response, noise & distortion ... over the WHOLE audio bandwidth ... with amps that are MORE EFFICIENT than Class AB. These include ICE and single-cycle sound from JL Audio. Nothing "mysterious". Nothing un-explained by modern science. Just technology IMPROVEMENTS, with the guiding light that power, gain, frequency response, noise & distortion are ALL THAT MATTERS as far as "amp sonics". As technology improves, we find ways to DELIVER those identical "sonic qualities" with amps that are smaller & more efficient. 

This whole thing has gotten BEYOND SILLY.

Those who don't understand even THE BASICS of modern science, will ALWAYS equate it with voodoo-magic ... and dismiss what they don't understand


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You’ve stated it many times, Jeff, and I agree wholeheartedly:
Amps that DO NOT measure the same, DO NOT sound the same.
Amps that measure the same, sound the same.

It can’t possibly be made any simpler. 


That actually gives the guys who say they do not sound the same plenty of wiggle room in their argument. The only thing left to do is explain what sounds different and back that up (if they wish) with some simple measurements. Quite frankly, getting at least an FR isn’t hard. Now, THD would be tougher, yes, but IMO the THD should be so low that for the purpose of this argument, I would almost negate them. I’ve not seen specs from mfg’s posting THD ratings anywhere near the auditory range. Not saying they don’t exist, but will base my rationale on this.

So, left with FR, grab your DMM, play some tones, plot some points and there you go! Let’s assume here that the amps you’re measuring are comparatively close to each other in regards to power output so that some idiot wouldn’t crank a 50x4 amp to match the level of a 200x4 amp. 

At the end of the day, IMO, the only real big player in this whole argument is going to be noise floor. That’s the only issue I’ve ever personally ran into when comparing amps of equal rated power. And, FWIW, every amp I’ve benched on my own have all done at or VERY close to rated power.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

less said:


> How do the reported sonic differences between vacuum tube amps and transistor amps fit with this? HAve there been double blind tests between comparable tube amps and transistor amplifiers that show that they sound the same?


Yes, when both amps are nonbroken and of competent design. 



less said:


> Its hard to imagine that tube and transistor amps are indistinguishable and marketing alone created this myth that is so ingrained in our hobby that companies even make products that try to emulate the "tube sound" (e.g., Tube Driver Blue).


The Butler amps just have an upper-midrange boost. Nothing else is special about them. (Well, they look cool.)



less said:


> Surely, if all amps sounded the same - there would be no reason (marketing aside - and marketing would probably encourage them to WANT to make the new classes for all of their products) to not make amps that were more efficient and produced less heat instead of a/b's.


Sure there is: cost and variety. There are plenty of East Asian OEM's of various Class AB designs. So any company can resell a Class AB amp, and for a time hoodwink customers into thinking it's actually special and not just a rebadged OEM model from an East Asian OEM. Class D designs right now tend to be more customized.



less said:


> For example, if tube amps sound perceivably better (with better meaning: closer to the sound of a live performance or closer to the sound that one would hear in the recording studio during a performance)


Which, of course, they don't.



bikinpunk said:


> While, I understand exactly what you’re saying, I don’t think it’s fair to cast that shadow for all competitors. I know quite a few guys who are sponsored competitors. One good friend of mine who is sponsored by a few companies and he’s never pushed any of their products on me.


It's not a matter of "pushing product." It's more promoting groupthink on wretched ideas (ankle-biter mids and tweets, for instance) and lack of critical thought on the assumption that one can claim some legitimacy from one act (pumping music through a parked car for a judge) to an entirely different act (enjoying music while driving a moving vehicle).



bikinpunk said:


> Since you brought up JBL/Harman, I'd like you to consider the competitors associated with that company and the way they did installs back in the 90s that are just now starting to really pick up within the forums. I don’t know those guys personally, but can say for sure that they had some innovative (at least in terms of the standard car audio installs) ideas and have provided the math to back it up. Most notably is the midbass mounted in the rear concept.


I wonder if those ideas didn't originate from OEM-based research and then found their way to competitors, though. That's my only point here: looking to what modern OEM's are doing and copying it with better parts and seasoning to taste is a very good strategy for actual sonic improvements.



bikinpunk said:


> The point I’m striving to make is that not all competitors are bad and not all are sheep.


I'm not, either. I'm just saying they're engaged in a hobby that has little to no relevance for actual listening to music in a moving vehicle. I'm not judging the hobby itself, or anyone involved in it. Except that it promotes wide diffusion of idiotic ideas such as ankle-biter mains, of course...


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> You’ve stated it many times, Jeff, and I agree wholeheartedly:
> Amps that DO NOT measure the same, DO NOT sound the same.
> Amps that measure the same, sound the same.
> 
> ...


Just because I like to have fun once in a while, devils advocate. The amps measure the same, but in what kind of load???

While there may be a inductive load that will offer the same "load characteristics to any amp for all freqs driven, I'm not aware of one.

I asked a while back about finding more information on the new specs that are out for the ease of us consumers. I was mainly interested in the methods for the testing. An amp that sounds good in one load, may not sound good on another load. Set resitive loads are one thing. Inductive loads are another.

Think of it this way, I have one speaker, huge coil. How will the output circuits of each amp react to the coil inductance, a collasping field. Amp "A" may easily absorb it, amp "B" maynot. same voltage output on cycle one different on cycle two.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> You’ve stated it many times, Jeff, and I agree wholeheartedly:
> Amps that DO NOT measure the same, DO NOT sound the same.
> Amps that measure the same, sound the same.
> 
> ...


Ahhh ... someone who understands the very basics of logic 

*All amps DO NOT sound the same.
All amps that MEASURE the same, SOUND the same.*

Yes, the underlying science is this : we currently understand all _measurements_ necessary to deliver an electrical signal to a reactive load over a 20kHz bandwidth. The science is well developed, and no well-controlled listening tests have proven it wrong.

Typical responses to this, on audio message boards :

_"******** !!!!! All amps do NOT sound the same! These closed-minded keyboard commandos that keep saying 'all amps sound the same' are completely deaf!"

"Why do we have to 'compare' amps while driving the same set of loudspeakers? Maybe in your fancy-pants 'laboratory' you need to pull these tricks ... but in the REAL WORLD amps drive different speakers all the time! And i KNOW the amptastic brand sounds different, because i heard it my buddies 79 camaro and compared it to the wattastic brand at the audio store!"

"I swapped-in a different amp at my house, and the difference was AMAZING! So i KNOW all amps do NOT sound the same. I don't care what science says! Must be some 'theory' yet to be discovered, like wormholes or something."

"OK sure, once you set the gain & frequency response the same, then the amps sure DO sound the same. But who has that kind of megabuck testing equipment? So this has no application in the real world. So i'll just keep buying my muli-kilobuck amps with the great brand names."

"Well of course, if you HIDE the brand names, i can't tell the difference anymore! But that's not "real world". In the real world, most people KNOW the brands of equipment they're running, right? I mean, duhh ... Plus, when you hide the brand names, you introduce a psychological voiding mechanism that ruins our hearing acuity blah ... blah and renders blind listening test invalid !!!"_

Well, if you can't IMMEDIATELY recognize the complete silliness of these responses ... you need a remedial course in _logic_ before you even attempt an understanding of electronics, acoustics, or signal processing.

But alas ... that won't stop people from criticizing what they don't understand.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Dryseals said:


> Just because I like to have fun once in a while, devils advocate. The amps measure the same, but in what kind of load???
> 
> While there may be a inductive load that will offer the same "load characteristics to any amp for all freqs driven, I'm not aware of one.
> 
> ...


The answer is simple : amps will SOUND the same if they MEASURE the same, while driving the SAME load (speaker).

Let's say "amplifier A" drives one speaker load identically to "Amplifier B". Maybe it's a rather simple reactive, or purely resistive, load. In this case, the two amps will sound identical.

Now let's pick a VERY reactive load. Huge inductance, or electrostat with huge capacitance. "Amplifier A" can _not_ drive it without instability. "Amplifier B" can drive it just fine. Will the amps sound the same with this tough load? Will they measure the same, with this tough load?

Or ... pick two amps that sound indistinguishable when driving 4 ohms. But, when driving 2 ohms, one has trouble with delivering the HIGHER current. Will they sound the same, while driving the LOWER impedance? Can modern science possibly MEASURE this difference as well ... or do we need to chalk it up to voodoo mysteries, unexplained by modern science?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> I'm not, either. I'm just saying they're engaged in a hobby that has little to no relevance for actual listening to music in a moving vehicle. I'm not judging the hobby itself, or anyone involved in it. Except that it promotes wide diffusion of idiotic ideas such as ankle-biter mains, of course...


Again, I understand what you’re saying, but as I mentioned above when answer’s Less’s question, the two are roughly close enough for me to see the usefulness.
Though my car doesn’t use the exact same settings all the time, the basis is the same. Tonality, staging, etc are all things that I’ve gotten more of a handle on thanks to listening to others’ cars, though not necessarily all while being at a competition. The premise of competition car stereo does seem silly to me. I’ll agree with you on that.
However, I believe it still has usefulness, if for nothing else than to help people learn what to listen for. I look at it as more than car audio learning… to me it’s learning about audio, in general. 



Dryseals said:


> things you’ve said…


Honestly, I’m not versed enough on what you mean by inductive loads to even answer this question. 
My point pertains to FR, which I believe one could measure very easily, and that’s where the logic of ‘measure the same, sound the same’ is derived. 
My understanding of all things EE is top level only. This isn’t my field: I’m an aero guy. But, I do understand what Lycan (Jeff) is trying to get across, and I agree with him.



lycan said:


> "I swapped-in a different amp at my house, and the difference was AMAZING! So i KNOW all amps do NOT sound the same. I don't care what science says! Must be some 'theory' yet to be discovered, like wormholes or something.".


You know, I don’t have a real big issue with people saying one amp sounds different. I just have an issue when they can’t quantify _what_ sounds different or even tell you a bit about the setup.
The most dumbfounding thing to me are people who say “I heard X amp in Larry’s car and heard XB amp in Chuck’s car. The XB amp sounded MUCH better. That’s an sq amp. Larry’s wasn’t an SQ amp.”

That kind of stuff is ignorant. There’s too many variables to draw conclusions. A step further, we can talk about the people who have listened to a car and attributed a certain sound to the ‘class’ of an amplifier. They don’t even know what the settings were and they haven’t seen the EQ curves. It’s too dismissive to say it’s an amp characteristic and move on and what’s worse is that said person extrapolates that one listen to that one car and that one environment to come to the conclusion that all of that particular amp sounds like that. 
Know what I’m sayin’?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Again, I understand what you’re saying, but as I mentioned above when answer’s Less’s question, the two are roughly close enough for me to see the usefulness.
> Though my car doesn’t use the exact same settings all the time, the basis is the same. Tonality, staging, etc are all things that I’ve gotten more of a handle on thanks to listening to others’ cars, though not necessarily all while being at a competition. The premise of competition car stereo does seem silly to me. I’ll agree with you on that.
> However, I believe it still has usefulness, if for nothing else than to help people learn what to listen for. I look at it as more than car audio learning… to me it’s learning about audio, in general.
> 
> ...


i've said it before ... bikinpunk is one smart dude.

Who knows what distinguishes a "laboratory" from the "real world"? There's one, and ONLY one thing. A laboratory IS the real world, where variables are well-controlled to determine CAUSE and EFFECT. That's it.

If you hear a difference between two amps driving two DIFFERENT speakers, how do you know that you're hearing a difference in amps ... OR a difference in speakers? If people would even understand this very basic point, i could die a happy man  "But in the real world ... amps drive different speakers all the time! So the 'test' has no real--world application." WRONG. The test allows us to ISOLATE variables to determine CAUSE & EFFECT, which allows us to UNDERSTAND each variable in isolation. ONLY THEN, can we understand a more complicated environment, with MANY variables in play.

I'll put it another way:

*This statement is non-interesting :* "_I swapped amps in my house, and heard a HUGE difference!_"

*This statement is VERY interesting :* "_I swapped amps in my house, and measured the gains, power, frequency response, noise & distortion to be identical (within well known limits of hearing). But i HEARD a difference. So i had my friend do some double-blind swapping, so that we could ALSO remove the variable of brand-bias. And i could STILL identify a difference, beyond what would be expected from random guessing._"

Does anyone here even see a difference between these two statements? By the way, the world is STILL WATING for the second statement 

I know what's coming within about 12 posts :

"******** !!!! All amps do NOT sound the same! Are you guys deaf ????"


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## maxwerks (Jan 24, 2010)

lycan said:


> i've said it before ... bikinpunk is one smart dude.
> 
> Who knows what distinguishes a "laboratory" from the "real world"? There's one, and ONLY one thing. A laboratory IS the real world, where variables are well-controlled to determine CAUSE and EFFECT. That's it.
> 
> ...


You know I am the one who " Mistakingly" stared this post and to say that I am disheartened by the outcome of it is the understatement of the century!
I can chose to debate the above statement on many levels, and many others , despite admitting to the fact that the people form the school of " All amps sound the same " , did in fact raise some valid point...I dont think it will make a any difference.. this is not a friendly discussion , an intellectual debate, this is a disappointment , ... so with this I bid you all well .. best of luck .. I am out of here!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't see where this has been unfriendly at all, at least on my part.


I think what we're doing here is good. We're trying to boil down the ways in which someone should be able to tell a difference, and isolate the causes, as well as talk about ways how one could figure out what _causes_ what you hear when you notice a difference. In fact, without this knowledge, I'd say there is no 'intellectual debate' on amplifier 'sound' at all.

Just sayin'. 


Your question was answered up front, I'm certain. The reason why Mc is such a well perceived brand is because they a) stand behind their product, b) make gear that lasts for ages, c) repair their products still, and d) have a very good resale value (linked to the previous three).
I’d rock a mcintosh amp if it weren’t for space issues (and, quite honestly, the price tag which I can’t afford). They have a monster 6 channel amp that I’d LOVE to use in my car (4x100, 2x300, iirc). I have no issues or qualms with gear. I have an issue with how one relates an amplifier’s ‘sound’ to the rest of the community. 
I never said I don’t believe they sound different… nor has anyone else as far as I can tell. We’ve simply said that differences should be easily measurable (in fact, I was going to post up a spreadsheet where someone could easily plot their own curves but decided against it figuring no one would care to use it). 

I’m not attacking anyone and neither are most. I see no reason why we can’t continue the talks. Though, the premise has been stated many times: measure/sound. The two are related. 

While this thread has veered severely off topic, I do believe the OP has gotten his answer a couple times and this thread really is pretty good, IMO. Unlike most of the other 10,000 'how does this amp sound' threads. 

Hope that helps clear the air a bit and you can join us again.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

maxwerks said:


> You know I am the one who " Mistakingly" stared this post and to say that I am disheartened by the outcome of it is the understatement of the century!
> I can chose to debate the above statement on many levels, and many others , despite admitting to the fact that the people form the school of " All amps sound the same " , did in fact raise some valid point...I dont think it will make a any difference.. this is not a friendly discussion , an intellectual debate, this is a disappointment , ... so with this I bid you all well .. best of luck .. I am out of here!


my apologies, once again 

I'm leaving with you.


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## Problemhouston (Apr 2, 2009)

lycan said:


> my apologies, once again
> 
> I'm leaving with you.


Well at least tell me where you guys are going so I can meet you there. I love this stuff it provided entertainment and a little bit of useful information.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I just want to jump in and say that I loved this thread. I'm sorry if the OP or Less didn't like the information presented in front of them, but it makes sense. I think where some people are lost (though I am not one of those people) is this comment:

*All amps DO NOT sound the same.
All amps that MEASURE the same, SOUND the same.*

What it should say so everyone can get on the same page is:

*All amps DO NOT sound the same...
BUT all amps CAN BE set up to sound the same, making their "SOUND" a non-factor in purchasing...UNLESS you don't care/don't have the equipment to match them making the "SOUND" from the amp out of the box important TO YOU.*

What some people fail to grasp is the admittance right away that amps can sound different or have a "signature" sound, etc. I believe this can be true, BUT this usually has to do with some variance in the frequency response which is really just a manipulation of the current if I understand what Lycan is saying correctly. I have even seen a chart on DIYMA showing old RF amps that had an uneven frequency response that created the "Rockford Sound." Another example is an amp that rolls off slightly on the top end towards 20k where another stays more flat, people hear the difference and say that amp is more laid back or has more detail. 

What all this means to me is that with a good EQ to remove any variances in frequency response and proper gain matching (not just 6 o'clock and 6 o'clock equal matched) any amp SHOULD sound the same (as long as no other variables are changed either). There are still factors that can throw this off though. It usually has to do with noise and that is all. This is why some people HATE the Alpine PDX amps, because of noise floor issues, but that is attributed to layout design and quality issues (I'm not an EE but I do work in Quality in a different field) and should not be considered part of argument.

For the people who object to the "lab test" scenario, they are inviting you to try it yourself. You can do it in your own car with your own speakers. I think it was 6th grade that I learned how to conduct a science experiment and Lycan is telling you how to do it too. 

First you need a hypothesis. Simple: "All amps DO NOT sound the same"

Next you need a control: My car with XX speakers, XX H/U, XX amp, with the latter two having XX settings (the volume must be below the level of clipping).

Then measurements: First take "ear" measurements, how does it sound. Then take an RTA, measure, and print the results.

Change ONE factor: Put in the new amp. Match the gains to the old amp (this new amp also MUST NOT clip at any point). 

Take measurements: First take "ear" measurement, does it sound different? If no, then the amps are already the same. If yes, go to the RTA. If the FR is different...than more than one factor changed. DO NOT change anything but the EQ on the HU to make the new FR match the one on the original amp. The amps should now sound identical. The EQ is exactly what it implies, it is used to equalize the frequency response therefore it is not changing a factor but equalizing things so the only factor changed was the brands of amps.

Conclusion: All amps CAN sound the same. 

If this experiment didn't work, there are several conclusions that can be drawn: both amps do not have a noise floor outside of the audible range, one amp is a tube amp (designed to have "pleasing" second order harmonics), one or both amps are clipping causing distortion (and distortion CAN sound different between amps), or you don't have the tools to equalize the gains or frequency response. All of these issues are not part of amps sounding different, they are part of a failed science experiment because more than one factor was different in the test. 

In the end, the sound of Brand A might not sound like Brand B out of the box, but it CAN be made sound alike using very real and simple methods. This is the argument against "sound" being one of the reasons to purchase an amp IF you have the means to make the differences out of the box equalized and therefore null and void. 

If I got anything wrong here, please correct me. I just want to try and get everyone on the same page (not likely since some argued that a hammer and an anvil may fall at different rates in a vacuum).

PS: I don't think anyone here argued that advances still won't happen in the world of amps. Many already stated they will get smaller, more powerful, run cooler (more reliable), have built in processing, etc... With some of the advances, it may be much easier to get "great sound" with less work, but they will not sound better power wise (built in real-time dynamic DSP would be another story) in the end than what is achievable already today.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

pionkej said:


> I just want to jump in and say that I loved this thread. I'm sorry if the OP or Less didn't like the information presented in front of them, but it makes sense. I think where some people are lost (though I am not one of those people) is this comment:
> 
> *All amps DO NOT sound the same.
> All amps that MEASURE the same, SOUND the same.*
> ...


What you say is true. But I think an important addition is this -- it's cheap and easy to make an amp that extends to 20k. 20kHz is a very low frequency. We've long mastered the issues that come with that. So, if there exists amps that can't reproduce 20kHz well, then it's because they don't WANT to reproduce 20kHz well. You'll find that several offerings have a slight rolloff at 20kHz... by "slight" I really do mean slight, on the order of a fraction of a dB (-0.1dB is common). This is basically an admission by the manufacturer that slight rolloffs at 20kHz don't matter. If they did, it wouldn't compromise their design much to let that number get closer to zero.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't disagree at all. I think that some amps have this because they feel it doesn't matter and some do it for a "sound", but since it can be overcome with an EQ, it again shouldn't matter. 

I think it is harder to find drivers/fix drivers that convey music without coloring it than it is to do so with amp selection. I actually personally like some second order harmonics and a "laid back" top end. That is why I selected Morel components (Zaph shows Morel tends to have a higher even order harmonic distortion) and the Piccolo tweeter tends to roll off around 16khz.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Only thing that I'm not sure I agree with is the RTA testing. If you're not using very fine measurement software (1/24 would probably be the least I'd do), then you may not true results.
And, note that the RTA is an acoustical measurement which includes the environment. I'd still prefer, if one is to do this, to see a straight FR out of the amp where the environment is not a factor. If it is a factor, that's one more thing that could point to faulty measurements. I'd try to avoid any potential error.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Only thing that I'm not sure I agree with is the RTA testing. If you're not using very fine measurement software (1/24 would probably be the least I'd do), then you may not true results.
> And, note that the RTA is an acoustical measurement which includes the environment. I'd still prefer, if one is to do this, to see a straight FR out of the amp where the environment is not a factor. If it is a factor, that's one more thing that could point to faulty measurements. I'd try to avoid any potential error.


Yeah, I thought about what you are saying too, but I was trying to get an easier test setup to the people who don't believe if they don't see. If the car is creating faulty measurements, it SHOULD be present in the control setup as well which would then be present in both measurements since it should be a constant (thinking it would be more a function of moving speakers here and not changing amps). I didn't specify the fineness of the RTA either, but you are right, it would have to be very fine to notice changes like that, you would have to have a pretty good eq as well. It still can be done though, maybe just not as easy as I first put it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Honestly, I think it's easier (or at least, more available) for people to use test tones in 1/3 band and a DMM to measure the FR by plotting it out in Excel. 

Would take more time, probably, but most likely more available and shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes, tops. Which, is about as long as it takes me to get all the RTA stuff setup and ready to take measurements.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

maxwerks said:


> You know I am the one who " Mistakingly" stared this post and to say that I am disheartened by the outcome of it is the understatement of the century!
> I can chose to debate the above statement on many levels, and many others , despite admitting to the fact that the people form the school of " All amps sound the same " , did in fact raise some valid point...I dont think it will make a any difference.. this is not a friendly discussion , an intellectual debate, this is a disappointment , ... so with this I bid you all well .. best of luck .. I am out of here!




Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. You've added nothing of substance to the discussion and decided to be a whiny ***** instead of possibly learning something, not exactly a great loss to the forum.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

lycan said:


> The answer is simple : amps will SOUND the same if they MEASURE the same, while driving the SAME load (speaker).
> 
> Let's say "amplifier A" drives one speaker load identically to "Amplifier B". Maybe it's a rather simple reactive, or purely resistive, load. In this case, the two amps will sound identical.
> 
> ...


But you see, you missed my point. We can see the specs as produced by the manufacturer. But how are the specs measured? Mainly under what load?? I've looked at the CEA sight, and I'm not willing to dump $55 to find out the testing conditions, not just yet. My guess is they are using a simple sine wave throught the spectrum and using a resistive load. A reactive load may be all together different. The high current modes to me are a farce, whoopie, so it can play a 2 ohm load. Any one screwing with a speaker knows good and well that the power they'll be looking for is not going to be in that two ohm area for their kicking little sub woofer. The woofer itself will has a curve that rises and falls and by the time your at the power hungry area, the load may be upwards of 20 ohms. The reactance there could kill the sound.

I would at least like to see something that would address the measuring in a fashion that could be put to good use. Even in the old audio days of the 70's you couldn't pin them down and I understood then that while the standard for measuring might work well with one amp and not another, yet they could produce a sound on a simular set of speakers, a more taxing speaker may make amp "B" singers sound like they're singing through a tin cup.

Standards can be good, but then knowing the standard I have to achieve might sway me to build to the standard. I'll pass every time, but never achive what I could. Much like our schools teaching to the test.................Sure looks good on paper.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

pionkej said:


> What it should say so everyone can get on the same page is:
> 
> *All amps DO NOT sound the same...
> BUT all amps CAN BE set up to sound the same, making their "SOUND" a non-factor in purchasing...UNLESS you don't care/don't have the equipment to match them making the "SOUND" from the amp out of the box important TO YOU.*


I still say that's far too extreme. I think a better statement would be "THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of amps are designed with flat FR, low noise, etc., therefore wasting time kvetching about amps is stupid."


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Considering that different amps will not make a noticeable difference other than sheer loudness with more power, I don't understand why they are discussed 20 times more often than how to install your damn speakers better and tune your system better which both DO make a very noticeable difference. 

Well amps and subs both are looked at under a microscope trying to find that last .1% increase in "SQ" when amps and subs contribute the least to it.

I say get the install and tuning spot on first, then see if that "magic" amp will make it slightly better, if you must, when there is nothing left to help.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

You know, I don't think I've ever read an informative and useful thread about how to tune. 

It's much easier to change gear than learn to install or tune.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ they are far rarer, indeed.

The sad truth is that when a technical type post is made, it gets about 3 replies... if that. Heck, I know I personally posted a couple threads the past few months that I honestly thought would have gotten more discussion than 2 replies stating "cool". People would rather switch out gear than to learn about what they're switching out. Not that I haven't been that guy before. Just sayin'. :/


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

Either the above, or we get a thread such as Lycans beast of thread that takes you on a journey of many days, with a billion useless posts thrown in the middle that confuses the topic.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I still say that's far too extreme. I think a better statement would be "THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of amps are designed with flat FR, low noise, etc., therefore wasting time kvetching about amps is stupid."


I don't disagree, I guess my post was to TRY and bring around the most extreme of people disagreeing in this thread that IF there is a difference, it CAN be "fixed" if that is what you want.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

MaxPowers said:


> Either the above, or we get a thread such as Lycans beast of thread that takes you on a journey of many days, with a billion useless posts thrown in the middle that confuses the topic.


Welcome to DIYMA! Pretty much how this topic usually ends up.

The key is to learn to filter the ********. As for this article, I found that to read the posts from Lycan, bikinpunk,Less,Mark Z, DS, DrySeals, and a couple of others. 

And sadly, unless I misinterpreted your posts we usually see a similar ending. When one doesn't get the answer they want or someone is able to logically argue the "opposing side", the believers in the "my amp is superior club" pull the same stunt.

Again, if I misinterpreted your posts I am truly sorry. Been following this thread since it started.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

89grand said:


> Considering that different amps will not make a noticeable difference other than sheer loudness with more power, I don't understand why they are discussed 20 times more often than how to install your damn speakers better and tune your system better which both DO make a very noticeable difference.
> 
> Well amps and subs both are looked at under a microscope trying to find that last .1% increase in "SQ" when amps and subs contribute the least to it.
> 
> I say get the install and tuning spot on first, then see if that "magic" amp will make it slightly better, if you must, when there is nothing left to help.


+ 1 million.


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