# Silver Flute users? Vifa too much of a stretch?



## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

*Silver Flute users?*

Does this site have a list of mids & tweets that work well together? + X-over points/slopes. Might be a good idea ...wouldn't have to deal w/ these posts. 

Looks like the Flute 6 has break up issues. Looking for a small format tweeter that will cross under 3khz. 

Tymphany BC25SC06-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter

If I go 2.8khz 3rd order on the tweeter, what do you guys recommend for the low pass on the mid? Will a 2nd order be okay? Notch filter? 



I can't find a tweeter that will do 2.5khz 2nd order ...not small format. 


**didnt like the lil xt25


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## Aldaa (Feb 25, 2015)

What about this one? Tymphany NE19VTS-04 3/4" Silk Dome Tweeter

It can be crossed at 2khz/12db. There's a 1" version too

Tymphany NE25VTS-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

I run two 6.5 Silver Flutes. They were..... meh in my doors and lacked the chest thumping bass I wanted. Put them in small sealed boxes and WOW they really shined! Very smooth and soft which is what I wanted in a mid-sub. I can run them as low as 65hz and as high as 4000hz but I currently have it set to 80hz-400hz. I have zero trouble covering the gap between my 3"s on the dash. Rather than push my 3" to go lower I bring the silver flutes up.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

A guy is selling LD25X tweeters in the classifieds, you can pull the face off and make whatever face you want, thus basically being as small a form factor as you can get. They play LOW as well.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Silver Flutes were hailed as inexpensive drivers that had higher efficiency than others, but as several seen, they lacked the bottom end to make them the bees knes.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

The flutes have a very low Qts and hence to get the low end extension they will need to be in enclosures within the door.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

There are a lot that can do what you want.

Depends on how loud you want to listen and your budget.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

sqnut said:


> The flutes have a very low Qts and hence to get the low end extension they will need to be in enclosures within the door.


That is exactly what I found. Swapping them for stock coaxials in a door thats been treated was pointless. They only shine in an enclosure. If you can't do that then just walk past the SF's. It should only be considered if you can seal them. I was ready to toss them in the trash until I decided to move them into small boxs. Pushed 175W each to them and they sound amazing. I did find that they drop off at 65hz. Just too small off a driver to get lower. Maybe a tuned ported box can get it lower but thats asking a lot for such a small driver.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

bugsplat said:


> That is exactly what I found. Swapping them for stock coaxials in a door thats been treated was pointless. They only shine in an enclosure. If you can't do that then just walk past the SF's. It should only be considered if you can seal them. I was ready to toss them in the trash until I decided to move them into small boxs. Pushed 175W each to them and they sound amazing. I did find that they drop off at 65hz. Just too small off a driver to get lower. Maybe a tuned ported box can get it lower but thats asking a lot for such a small driver.


Pretty much like my experience with them, the bottom end roll off can be dropped a bit to 50 with a slightly larger enclosure. But with a normal enclosure 60-65 is about right.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I agree with all of that, I have a set I pulled out for the same reasons. But the OP was talking about the other end of things so I figured that was the concern.


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## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

Well! I went to go remove my RS-150's from the front doors this morning & I guess I only have 3 1/8" from the door track to the door card. The door track can only be extended a 1/4" max.



I wanted to keep this as simple as possible. 2 way up front, no rears, no sub. I just like to listen to Youtube covers -people playin' the guitar & the piano. It sounds really good, but the low end is lacking. 

Is it worth trying out the 5" version of the Flutes? 



Peerless SDS-135F25CP08-08 Gold SDS Series 5-1/4" Subwoofer Driver

That would probably give me more low end, but I'm not sure how good it'll sound playing midrange frequencies. It's also 4 db down from the RS-150's & it's 8 ohms. Is there a limit to how much you're supposed to attenuate a tweeter? 

Other than that,

6-1/2" Poly Cone Midbass Woofer 4 Ohm


I might be able to squeeze that in if I extend the door track. Now I'm wondering if I should have just left it stock, lol.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Sounds to me like you need a total re-think. 

A shallow component set seems to be the best option given your scenario.


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## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

Believe it or not, I have a set of Polk DB coaxials & did an A/B comparison. The Polks were strong down to 80hz but completely fell off from there whereas the Rs-150s went down to around 50hz. They were quiet but they played lower with more authority than the Polks. Weird. That's like a 4" cone. 

I think I was just using one of those t amps


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

INTP_ty said:


> Believe it or not, I have a set of Polk DB coaxials & did an A/B comparison. The Polks were strong down to 80hz but completely fell off from there whereas the Rs-150s went down to around 50hz. They were quiet but they played lower with more authority than the Polks. Weird. That's like a 4" cone.
> 
> I think I was just using one of those t amps


When in a door vs. an enclosure of some sort, you'll find low Qts drivers will fall away on response (or in the Flute's case, they'll bottom out and make a ton of noise) which is definitely not ideal. Then you have to dial back the crossover point and/or volume, again not ideal. 


Back to it though, how are you crossing things over? What else is in the system?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

*Re: Silver Flute users?*

Something not often talked about is the common downside to raw drivers. You don't find many raw having parameters agreeable with running IB in a door down past 80hz. At least not like you used to. Even if you use ones with a low Q, you will still need quite a bit of excursion to handle the necessary eq'ing to make it so. 

On the other hand, sometimes it just makes sense to use car audio branded drivers and not think that going with raw will always be the better choice. Even I can admit that and I'm usually a raw fan. 

Still, all of this pertains to getting a strong response under 100hz. If you can get past having that, be happy with mids that only need to reach to 100hz, and have a sub that can make up the difference while still disappearing.... well you may have more options than most. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

Okay! 

I ordered the Flutes & well I didn't know they were out of Madison, WI. That's only a few hours away from me. Digikey & Mouser are here as well? Here I thought I was the only one in the Midwest that knew what an inductor was lol. 

Anyways


Parts Express has cap values 8.2 9.1 & 10 for Polys. 

So in my 2nd LR configuration I can do a crossover point of 2424 hertz using the 8.2, 2187 hertz using the 9.1, and 1990 hertz using the 10. 


The NE19 listed in post 2 will do 2k hz 12 db but the harmonic distortion gets fugly under 2.5 kHz. If I cross at 2187, ID prolly use the NE25 -the 1" version. 

If 2424 I'll just stick with the NE19. Save six bucks rofl. 

1990 with the 10 seems redicously low. I might just ditch this point all together even with the NE25. 






What do you guys think?









Also, for whatever reason the 9.1uf Polys are like 8 dollars a piece while the 8.2s are only 3-4. 



Are you guys against me using electrolytics on the mids? If I end up using the 2187 point with the 9.1s it'd save me 15 bucks.


And I'm going to grab a few resistors for l pad 



Sorry -iPhone


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

*Re: Silver Flute users?*



INTP_ty said:


> .. Tymphany BC25SC06-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter


Same tweeters i used when i first went active, they're inexpensive and sound okay but there are better tweeters out there..


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## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

*Re: Silver Flute users?*



gstokes said:


> Same tweeters i used when i first went active, they're inexpensive and sound okay but there are better tweeters out there..


Tymphany NE25VTS-04 1" Silk Dome Tweeter


I don't think the bc25s would do 2 kHz 2nd order


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Two things-

how are you arriving at those values?

Stay away from electrolytics if you can. I would spend the extra if I could.

But if you are using text book calculations, the real world points and slopes won't be what you've calculated.


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## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> Two things-
> 
> how are you arriving at those values?
> 
> ...


2nd order online crossover. 


We haven't gotten to active components yet. I See the inductive reactance equation, but my filters are of 2nd order. How do I include the capacitor here? This LC or LCR? Tank circuit?


Okay on the electrolytic. It would have been C2


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

They may not be 2nd order acoustically though.

What I would do would be to model the mids and tweeters you decide on in a passive crossover designer like the excellent free PCD 7 from Jeff Bagby. You will need Excel though. And another free program called SPLTrace and/or SPL Copy.

Trace the FR curves and the impedance curves and import them into the program. Then with your best guess enter the driver offsets. Don't worry too much about baffle step losses, extracting minimum phase, or diffraction like the home guys do.

Then you can enter your target curves and it will calculate those for you. You can then manipulate cap and coil values to get different slopes and points...and watch the phasing as you do it. The main thing is to have good tracking through the XO point.

If I had time, I would help you simulate this...but time is in short supply right now for me.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eed-book-passive-crossover-design-theory.html


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

I have run the NE25VTS for a couple years, and I like them. Crossed at 2kHz typically.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

To me the hard part of going passive is when you separate the woofer and the tweeter more than just a few inches. Then calculations can get very tricky (if trying to optimize.) I had good luck with making passive crossovers with the drivers immediately next to each other though. 

But going active makes way more sense to me when splitting the drivers up. Because, not only do you get variable crossover points without buying more components and soldering them up, you get variable gain per driver, phase, slope (actual slope, not just a hoped-for slope from limited calculations), and the almighty time alignment. Processors are cheap these days for what you get. That's the only way I like to go with builds these days.


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## german88 (Jun 18, 2015)

What would the min. Qts be for a raw mid range in an IB application? Talked to Madisound today and they mentioned >.40 as a safe minimum. Looking to replace my mids with SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-4 6.5". Qts of .32 has me concerned however. Wondering how so many are getting away with these and Scan's also?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

german88 said:


> What would the min. Qts be for a raw mid range in an IB application? Talked to Madisound today and they mentioned >.40 as a safe minimum. Looking to replace my mids with SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-4 6.5". Qts of .32 has me concerned however. Wondering how so many are getting away with these and Scan's also?


That's not really something to worry about, by itself. A low FS but low Qts would still do well in a door, potentially. 

I like keeping it in the .4's just on pricipal, but if the speaker has a high xmax and a low fs, having a low Qts isn't the end of the world at all. Example, the Si TM65 is great in IB situations and has a low Qts of .28. But with an Fs of 44hz and more than 9mm of useful excursion one way, there's zero issues.


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## german88 (Jun 18, 2015)

Do the SB Acoustics meet this criteria in your estimation? Any others come to mind?
They seemed like a good match to the NVX XSPTW tweets I plan to use. Difficult to find numbers on the NVX components but the XSP6.5 mid bass looks eerily similar to the SB17NRXC35-4.




fourthmeal said:


> That's not really something to worry about, by itself. A low FS but low Qts would still do well in a door, potentially.
> 
> I like keeping it in the .4's just on pricipal, but if the speaker has a high xmax and a low fs, having a low Qts isn't the end of the world at all. Example, the Si TM65 is great in IB situations and has a low Qts of .28. But with an Fs of 44hz and more than 9mm of useful excursion one way, there's zero issues.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

german88 said:


> Do the SB Acoustics meet this criteria in your estimation? Any others come to mind?
> They seemed like a good match to the NVX XSPTW tweets I plan to use. Difficult to find numbers on the NVX components but the XSP6.5 mid bass looks eerily similar to the SB17NRXC35-4.


They're practically identical, both the XSPTW and the XSP65 use SB Acoustics drivers, just a different chassis..


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## german88 (Jun 18, 2015)

Scan Discovery 18W seems like another great option based on the numbers.


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## INTP_ty (Oct 8, 2015)

german88 said:


> Do the SB Acoustics meet this criteria in your estimation? Any others come to mind?
> They seemed like a good match to the NVX XSPTW tweets I plan to use. Difficult to find numbers on the NVX components but the XSP6.5 mid bass looks eerily similar to the SB17NRXC35-4.





INTP_ty said:


> Well! I went to go remove my RS-150's from the front doors this morning & I guess I only have 3 1/8" from the door track to the door card. The door track can only be extended a 1/4" max.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See above


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

I think i'm going to give the flutes a whirl for my first DIY bookshelf build.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I've got the NVX tweets in my Focus. I like them but do not love them. I have KAXBLTWTs in another build I'm working on and those are dreamy. There's also the horn-loaded Vifa that's really nice for the money.


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