# high end fuse. myth or truth?



## KSakai

I've been told that a fuse can sounds different like when I use a generic mini ANL fuse vs furutech or another brand, the generic one sounds dull, blah blah blah.

I'm not sure if this true since it's just a fuse.. anyone can explain?


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## SkizeR

100% irrelevant since the fuse isnt in the audio signal..


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## KSakai

SkizeR said:


> 100% irrelevant since the fuse isnt in the audio signal..


i do agree!.. but I still don't get why the hell there's difference when my friend changed his standard fuse to a glass fuse on his amp?.. I feels so depressed if it's just my suggestion or not

I tried it on my DAC too but I can't tell any difference from my headphones lol ($5 3.15A gold plated fuse vs $0.1 bussmann 8A)

this is confusing...


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## gijoe

Correct. There may be a difference in quality between one fuse and another, but that has to do with it's tolerances and how close to the rated current it actually blows (and how quickly). The fuse is not in the audio signal, it will not impact the sound whatsoever, anyone who says otherwise is trying to up-sell you.


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## gijoe

KSakai said:


> i do agree!.. but I still don't get why the hell there's difference when my friend changed his standard fuse to a glass fuse on his amp?.. I feels so depressed if it's just my suggestion or not
> 
> I tried it on my DAC too but I can't tell any difference from my headphones lol ($5 3.15A gold plated fuse vs $0.1 bussmann 8A)
> 
> this is confusing...


It's not confusing, any difference was imaginary.


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## KSakai

makes sense..
friends told that some materials do makes different sound (like caps on the PSU)

i guess they just want to makes me feels dumb?


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## SkizeR

gijoe said:


> anyone who says otherwise is trying to up-sell you.


or is what we call, and audiophile


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## KSakai

SkizeR said:


> or is what we call, and audiophile


I would say "audiophool" 

I can tolerate different opamp different sound but can't accept different fuse different sound :blush:


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## jtaudioacc

with a Japanese screen name like yours, i'm going to need you to do better than asking this question. lol  

j/k no way anyone will convince me a fuse allowing the full voltage and amperage thru will make any difference.


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## KSakai

jtaudioacc said:


> with a Japanese screen name like yours, i'm going to need you to do better than asking this question. lol
> 
> j/k no way anyone will convince me a fuse allowing the full voltage and amperage thru will make any difference.


well.. "girls" 

yeah.. I would stick to "any fuse just fine" until there's detailed explainations w/ measurements


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## I800C0LLECT

KSakai said:


> i do agree!.. but I still don't get why the hell there's difference when my friend changed his standard fuse to a glass fuse on his amp?.. I feels so depressed if it's just my suggestion or not
> 
> I tried it on my DAC too but I can't tell any difference from my headphones lol ($5 3.15A gold plated fuse vs $0.1 bussmann 8A)
> 
> this is confusing...




Did your friend have it in-line with one of these? :laugh:

Stage 3 - Kraken Reference Audio Power

Don't let an "audiophile" confuse you with snake oil...er...I mean features.



> FEATURES:
> A.S.P. Reference Kraken power cables employ 6 large-gauge Cryo-treated, custom slow-extruded silver/palladium AeroStrand Ultra™ ribbon conductors. Air dielectric with FEP Teflon air-tubes.
> H.D.A. 100% radiation invulnerable shield. Each conductor + 3 plated silver ground wires individually shielded with silver plated braid. Multi-layer construction with silica/ceramic/ferrite mechanical damping/shielding layer.
> Custom handmade polymer-filled, carbon fiber plug housings help eliminate external vibrations. Exclusive Hyperion Ceramic plugs with Silver/Copper alloy electrical contacts, Palladium plated and Cryo-treated (custom made by Stage III Concepts).



EDIT: I wish somebody would cut into one of these to see what comes out! I wonder if it has all those tubes, cermics, and braids. I feel like the guy in the pic must be using this cable.


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## Hillbilly SQ

I use fuses made of the finest gold and constructed by dutch virgin prostitutes. They each cost more than my truck but the added imaginary sq is more than worth it.


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## stills

Psychoacoustics = motherfucka


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## Victor_inox

stills said:


> Psychoacoustics = motherfucka


Just found my signature line, thank you!:laugh:


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## cajunner

the composition of fuse material itself could probably be linked to how much actual current/voltage loss ends up at the destination, as well as the type and amount of solder used to attach the filament to the fuse ends, and the base metal along with the plating used could also affect conductivity due to various things like metal solution and how much the solder travels, or wets the filament, changing the thermal characteristics of the fuse based on length divided by mass, divided by alloy composition.

all of these possible permutations do not really restrict the flow of electricity to a degree that an audible account can be made, but I am sure if given a palette of checkboxes I could make you a fuse that would be, superlative in the highest realm of possibility...


is that what you want?


do you want the best damn fuse anyone has ever made, would that work for you?


Because I can do that. I won't say it will be cheap, and my time is worth something as well, so if you really want this, if a fuse that costs upwards of 500 bucks is something you'd like to pursue...

I'm a PM away.


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## KSakai

i wouldnt spend $50 just for a fuse tho..
id better spend a good power cable instead of thinking about losses on fuse (well... 10mV drop isnt much even i really doubt if fuse causing drops that much)


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## TurboTR

Fuses do change the sound. But you probably won't hear it in a typical car audio system IMO. Likely only in a high resolution (home) audio system.

So does the AC power cord. So do the speaker cables. So do the interconnect cables. Hard to believe, I know (especially on mobile audio site). But true.

TurboTR


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## OldSchoolAddict

What a crock of ****


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## SkizeR

OldSchoolAddict said:


> What a crock of ****


lolol beat me to it


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## gijoe

TurboTR said:


> Fuses do change the sound. But you probably won't hear it in a typical car audio system IMO. Likely only in a high resolution (home) audio system.
> 
> So does the AC power cord. So do the speaker cables. So do the interconnect cables. Hard to believe, I know (especially on mobile audio site). But true.
> 
> TurboTR


It would be easier to believe if you provided some evidence, instead of saying "But true." The only things that can affect the sound in a cable (for an audio signal) are resistance, and poor shielding. If the cable shields the noise, and is appropriately sized for the current flowing though it, the sound will not change. 

An undersized wire will have too much resistance, it will heat up, which will cause more resistance, but even then all that happens to the audio signal is that the voltage is decreased (it gets quieter). You may run the risk of setting something on fire, but resistance will attenuate the signal, nothing more. 

For an RCA, as long as it provides proper shielding to prevent noise it acts the same as a speaker wire. As long as it's sized properly, and the resistance is low, it will not change the audio signal. 

We can get into audible differences vs measurable differences if you want, but a measurable difference isn't necessarily audible.


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## OldSchoolAddict

Owned his ass lol


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## SkizeR

to be fair, wires have capacitance and inductance, but at levels so low it doesnt even matter.


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## I800C0LLECT

To be fair... He has 14 posts and he's digging up all the ridiculous topics.

Troll?


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## MikeS

this thread sounds like cable elevators


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## TurboTR

Oh it's ok, I can take it. Not necessary to be nasty though of course. And sorry, I'm not really feeling "powned" lol..

I understand the skepticism because I was also fully in the skeptic corner too for much of my early audio life. It's natural to question what we don't fully understand. 

And have been brought up through engineering school as well, so it took many years after to allow the eyes and ears to open more (tg they did).

Fact is we just can't quantify everything about audio. And I'm ok with that; not everyone else is, totally understand.


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## Victor_inox

What is it exactly we don't fully understand? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT

Why does it always come back to "one day you'll understand too, maybe"

What if you've allowed perception to ruin your ability to enjoy music because you're constantly switching power cables, fuses, wires, or whatever else?

And how do you achieve what can never be quantified?

Maybe the key to your last amazing setup was the elusive static interference from a specific type of shag carpet that's not manufactured anymore?


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## SkizeR

I800C0LLECT said:


> Why does it always come back to "one day you'll understand too, maybe"
> 
> What if you've allowed perception to ruin your ability to enjoy music because you're constantly switching power cables, fuses, wires, or whatever else?
> 
> And how do you achieve what can never be quantified?
> 
> Maybe the key to your last amazing setup was the elusive static interference from a specific type of shag carpet that's not manufactured anymore?


you will never understand  :laugh:


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## OldSchoolAddict

MikeS said:


> this thread sounds like cable elevators


Those work though, the guy at the high end stereo store said so


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## Victor_inox

SkizeR said:


> you will never understand


That's correct, it's a wire thing.

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## MikeS

OldSchoolAddict said:


> Those work though, the guy at the high end stereo store said so


They must because they cost so much.


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## TurboTR

Do you really think we understand everything perfectly? For example, why Naim speaker cable sounds very obviously different than does Atlas Ascent cable?

If you think you do understand it all, please explain everything that is causing the obvious sonic differences? We're all ears and ready to learn..

Conversely, if you claim that there are no real differences because you can't explain them.. Well that's weak, and quite simply you're wrong. Anyone can hear it. Some can't believe it even when they do. Some can't even admit they don't know everything.

But otherwise if there was no difference why would we bother? Just get the shiniest stuff and be done then, right?




Victor_inox said:


> What is it exactly we don't fully understand?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## OldSchoolAddict

MikeS said:


> They must because they cost so much.


Great deal at $599 lol

For some wooden blocks...


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## OldSchoolAddict

TurboTR said:


> Do you really think we understand everything perfectly? For example, why Naim speaker cable sounds very obviously different than does Atlas Ascent cable?
> 
> If you think you do understand it all, please explain everything that is causing the obvious sonic differences? We're all ears and ready to learn..


How about you explain it to us if you're so sure.


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## OldSchoolAddict

Atlas cables website is a ****ing joke, go read it People.

"We believe the results easily justify the price" yeah I bet you do

There's a sucker born every day folks


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## SkizeR

TurboTR said:


> Do you really think we understand everything perfectly? For example, why Naim speaker cable sounds very obviously different than does Atlas Ascent cable?
> 
> If you think you do understand it all, please explain everything that is causing the obvious sonic differences? We're all ears and ready to learn..
> 
> Conversely, if you claim that there are no real differences because you can't explain them.. Well that's weak, and quite simply you're wrong. Anyone can hear it. Some can't believe it even when they do. Some can't even admit they don't know everything.
> 
> But otherwise if there was no difference why would we bother? Just get the shiniest stuff and be done then, right?


oh boy do i have a product for you! these will take your system to the next level!

Brilliant Pebbles Advanced Audio Video Tweak


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## OldSchoolAddict

Wait a minute....

Brilliant pebbles don't work?

Duped again :'(


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## TurboTR

Gosh some of you guys are really just tooo smaht for school huh  And when there's no real argument the standard tactic is to attack personally and belittle. Criticizing the Atlas website even? Lol.. Seen it, taped it yawn..

How about you instead comment constructively when you have actually made the stated comparison yourself and have useful input to contribute? I know, rhetorical question, never happen here.

Sorry, not jumping on the popular bandwagon here that nothing affects the sound (lol), and don't care to fit into that to please some of the herd here. Sticking to the truth, popular or not.

The original question was- can a fuse have an impact on the sound. The answer remains- yes. However, you don't have to accept that answer of course.


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## I800C0LLECT

SkizeR said:


> oh boy do i have a product for you! these will take your system to the next level!
> 
> Brilliant Pebbles Advanced Audio Video Tweak



It's not false advertising if you can't prove it...

I think a bowl of jello might help reduce comb filtering and redistribute the energy in a room to help smooth out frequency response much better than those pebbles. Specifically lime and orange. But be careful of yellow dye #5 as it seems to excite certain frequencies.

I feel like a sound challenge might be brewing... Who wants to visit VA for a/b, abx, and maybe some good old fashioned female wrestling?


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## I800C0LLECT

TurboTR said:


> *Sticking to the truth*, popular or not.
> 
> The original question was- can a fuse have an impact on the sound. The answer remains- yes. However, you don't have to accept that answer of course.


Where's the proof?


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## Victor_inox

School huh? I've got my PhD in physics and my formal education suggest that you better find different audience.

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## I800C0LLECT

Victor_inox said:


> School huh? I've got my PhD in physics and my formal education
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


That's embarrassing.

You should keep that to yourself


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## OldSchoolAddict

TurboTR said:


> Gosh some of you guys are really just tooo smaht for school huh  And when there's no real argument the standard tactic is to attack personally and belittle. Criticizing the Atlas website even? Lol.. Seen it, taped it yawn..
> 
> How about you instead comment constructively when you have actually made the stated comparison yourself and have useful input to contribute? I know, rhetorical question, never happen here.
> 
> Sorry, not jumping on the popular bandwagon here that nothing affects the sound (lol), and don't care to fit into that to please some of the herd here. Sticking to the truth, popular or not.
> 
> The original question was- can a fuse have an impact on the sound. The answer remains- yes. However, you don't have to accept that answer of course.


you still haven't attempted to explain why or rather how extremely expensive speaker cables could possibly sound different.

Please, elaborate


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## Victor_inox

I800C0LLECT said:


> That's embarrassing.
> 
> You should keep that to yourself


What is?

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## I800C0LLECT

Victor_inox said:


> What is?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


Your education 

You just don't understand!


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## MikeS

I have heard rca cable make a difference - compared to thinner one.

When it's not thick enough it does sound slightly different, but I still don't believe in any of the hype of super expensive cables. Heck even standard twisted pair cable (made with chinese cordless drill) sounds the same as my thick coax rca's. 

But power to wall cable or fuse.. come on.


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## OldSchoolAddict

Victor_inox said:


> What is?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


there's a pun in there somewhere but I don't see it either lol


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## Victor_inox

I'm not understanding how device not in the path of sound signal could theoretically affect sound.
It just cant.drape between listener and speaker can,fuse in power supply just can't. 

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## Victor_inox

I just got a business idea......not gonna share.

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## TurboTR

Gosh guys, seriously, if the only acceptable answer to this sort of question is "Nothing impacts the sound!, and Everything sounds exactly the same!".. Why even have the forum section? 

And why then even ask the original question? The only acceptable answer is no effect at all? So why ask?

To save time and effort, just close the forum with a stickie sign that says: "Warning- Absolutely nothing in your system will ever impact the sound! it is not physically possible. So never ask.. Or you are in danger of being powned the gang! You've been warned!"


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## Victor_inox

I don't like this crowd,too smart to sell you criogenically treated ********.

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## I800C0LLECT

All you need is some good solid Star Trek theory and it'll sell. Match it with a high price and confidence... Who would ever doubt you?


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## cajunner

I can make two speaker cables audibly differ.

I can do the same to fuses.

I cannot however, expect to sell the lower performing version of either cable or fuse, in the market and make a profit.


anyone who is making such junk that I can tell there's a sonic penalty when inserted into the chain, is not going to last.

anyone who makes a cable or fuse that is superior to the mid-grade versions available at big box retailers, can't win a double-blind and that's a fact.

but I can suggest that I have what it takes to produce a fuse and cable with the very best technology and the best materials and is measurably superior in noise rejection, most voltage pass-through, impedance matched and tuned for a geometrically perfect 1.2:1 ratio SWR, and the smallest conductor resistance at the terminals using liquid contacts and long-chain conductive nano-particles.

but it's still not going to overcome impedance mismatch without active compensation networks and will not require any bump of the gains from lower grade product, at the speaker's terminals from the measurable decrease in signal strength.


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## OldSchoolAddict

TurboTR said:


> Gosh guys, seriously, if the only acceptable answer to this sort of question is "Nothing impacts the sound!, and Everything sounds exactly the same!".. Why even have the forum section?
> 
> And why then even ask the original question? The only acceptable answer is no effect at all? So why ask?
> 
> To save time and effort, just close the forum with a stickie sign that says: "Warning- Absolutely nothing in your system will ever impact the sound! it is not physically possible. So never ask.. Or you are in danger of being powned the gang! You've been warned!"


yet again you've failed to explain how speaker cables can sound different, all things being equal but their cost.

We know there are things that can effect the sound, but it isn't the fuses in a car audio system.

Why won't you answer my question? What makes niam and atlas cables sound different?


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## I800C0LLECT

We're overreacting? How many fuses have you purchased and given a listening session to before settling?

I'm sorry we're condescending but you offer no reasonable explanation except you can hear it. If you can hear it can the difference be measured with a mic?


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## Victor_inox

I'm out of here my iq drops by the minute,soon I believe in fuse difference for sound quality

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## TurboTR

Victor- fuse is not in the signal path? Are you sure about that? 

Picture how an amp output stage drives the signal for example.. And yes, the signal includes the output stage transistor(s) routing charge directly from the PSU to the speaker terminal. The whole chain from the wall (or battery for mobile) to the speaker terminal.

It doesn't take long to see that the fuse is in fact the first element in the chain from the wall, through the fuse into the transformer and directly into the PSU caps and the output stage transistor (when the corresponding linear PSU rectifier diode is ON and conducting).. The amp itself is essentially just a modulator of the PSU into a load.

The truth is EVERY element has an impact on the sound when you resolve well enough. Audio differences extend down into the microvolts range. The more resolving your system is, the more you can hear it. Not all systems handle the signal well and are highly resolving. So not everything is critical to all systems. Some systems you can;t hear anything really. Like a cheapo PC audio system fore example.

I was ~ shocked the first day I tried the fuse thing in my system. Did NOT expect to be able to hear it. But I did.

Another thing that surprised me very much, I could hear the difference in DAC CLK pin jitter between ~ 80 ps rms decreased -> <2ps (below what the instrument could measure. This was a non-os DAC design project. I could hear the jitter reduction. The sound stage got bigger for one. Meaning to me there was more low level information uncovered from the noise floor.

But in all seriousness, those who have not heard it, nor tried.. Keep your mind open (and snarkiness in control) until you do things like this yourself piece by piece and hear the results (attached).

Those familar with a Naim amp will notice many, many changes have been made. For good reasons. If you hear no difference then why bother? It's alot of work..

If, after all that effort for example (hundreds of man hours in this case, literally) you hear no difference.. Well then your ears don't work and you're in the wrong hobby  

One the largest improvements was, believe it or not, chaging the passives. Including the resistors. Those are very low TC film resistors BTW. It does make a difference. If you've heard of a nude Vishay foil, it's the same principle.

Anyway, wasting alot of time typing these things here.. too bad really because it's an interesting world.




Victor_inox said:


> I'm not understanding how device not in the path of sound signal could theoretically affect sound.
> It just cant.drape between listener and speaker can,fuse in power supply just can't.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## OldSchoolAddict

Still didn't explain why niam and atlas cables sound different


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## cajunner

Victor_inox said:


> I'm out of here my iq drops by the minute,soon I believe in fuse difference for sound quality
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


if the fuse is in the speaker outputs, then...

but if we're talking power input, then no.

there is likely no way to make a fuse that the amplifier circuitry cannot compensate for, and in the same obviousness, no way to make a fuse that the circuitry is optimized by for an audible result.

so fuses, not so much. 

But within a cable there are definite ways to scientifically construct a circuit that is completely wrought with bad implementation like standing waves and dissimilar metal conduction, internal looping and hysteresis, a little di-electric clamping and some residual leakage at precisely located "windowing" in the shield to jacket...


and then do the reverse so that capacitance values, impedance, rejection, and insulation values are all perfected to achieve a superior cable design.

and perhaps, there would be an audible end, to the means.


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## TurboTR

Really? Are you sure about that?



cajunner said:


> if the fuse is in the speaker outputs, then...
> 
> but if we're talking power input, then no.


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## TurboTR

I can't! That's the point. Nor do I bother trying. I don't know everything; nobody does. And That's ok. What's happening is beyond my understanding.

Just like I/we can't understand or comprehend really how a seed in the ground grows and turns into a living plant for example. It's beyond our understanding. Does that mean it can't happen then? No, of course not.



OldSchoolAddict said:


> Still didn't explain why niam and atlas cables sound different


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## gijoe

TurboTR said:


> I can't! That's the point. Nor do I bother trying. I don't know everything; nobody does. And That's ok. What's happening is beyond my understanding.
> 
> Just like I/we can't understand or comprehend really how a seed in the ground grows and turns into a living plant for example. It's beyond our understanding.


Luckily for you, some of us have studied more than engineering, I've studied pschology and philosophy. The reason you believe you hear a differnce can be explained by those. Hearing a difference and there being a difference aren't the same thing.


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## TurboTR

Why yes, lucky for us. Well there you have it. It's all been in my imagination  Thank you for curing me Dr! 

So again- just close the forum and post the sign: 

"NOTHING affects the sound. It's NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE that ANYTHING AFFECTS the SOUND DAMMIT! Further, if you IMAGINE you hear a difference you are simply delusional and psychotic BECAUSE IT'S NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE!" 

Lol 

And that sums up the overall state of DIYma quite well, unfortunately sigh..




gijoe said:


> Luckily for you, some of us have studied more than engineering, I've studied pschology and philosophy. The reason you believe you hear a differnce can be explained by those. Hearing a difference and there being a difference aren't the same thing.


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## SkizeR

you have yet to say any reason why they would sound different..


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## Victor_inox

He can't.his main argument just because.and BTW turbo we managed here just fine without fuse debate. 

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## TurboTR

SkizeR said:


> you have yet to say any reason why they would sound different..


Does the exact technical reason(s) really matter in the end? if it's audio, doesn't it matter most at the end of the day what the sound does to your ear, as opposed to an exact scientific explanation of how or why?

You probably have a preference for say, the sound of a non-os DAC in general vs a garden variety delta-sigma. But you can't explain why exactly you prefer it, technically. Yet you will have an audible preference. Just an example. 

Digging through old folders, posting alot of audio ads (cleaning out storage lately). Found some interesting tidbits (for some).

One is a phone vid of RTA showing very flat in-room response from a pair of 4" wide band (HAT) drivers in an open baffle and low bass bins. Using a digital EQ. These sounded wonderful BTW.

Other two show the actual voltage peaks developed across a tweeter during real music (played loudly). It shows how much +/- amp rail voltage was required to serve the music before clipping in this case. Again, just a cell vid. You can see the digital scope trigger level.

Darn, can't post them- too large. Oh well. It's late; adios amigos.


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## Fetus

If you really believe you can hear a difference in the cables, I'd suggest getting in contact with James Randi. All you have to do is hear the difference between two different types of speaker cable, and he'll give you a million dollars. What do you have to lose?

This site is here to share information. Information can be true, or it can be false. A great deal of the information on this site is backed by measurement, some is based on anecdotal evidence. Most anecdotal evidence can be quantified by further measurement and testing, some is just, like, y'know, I can totally hear a difference, this is just how it is, you'll become enlightened one day, blah, blah, blah.

Considering the stupid amount of money being asked for for these fuses and cables, with no quantifiable evidence to back up their claims of performance, well that is enough to scream snake oil to me.


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## Victor_inox

See amigo,unlike you I can explain why delta sigma sucks.i also can explain why you hearing things that aren't there. 

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## strakele

Fetus said:


> If you really believe you can hear a difference in the cables, I'd suggest getting in contact with James Randi. All you have to do is hear the difference between two different types of speaker cable, and he'll give you a million dollars. What do you have to lose?


I was just about to offer him $1000 if he could reliably hear a difference in a blind test, but heck, that's a much better deal!

Funny how all the claims of 'clear and obvious differences' suddenly turn into excuses and backpedaling every time someone offers a test with any scientific merit.


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## SkizeR

TurboTR said:


> Does the exact technical reason(s) really matter in the end? if it's audio, doesn't it matter most at the end of the day what the sound does to your ear, as opposed to an exact scientific explanation of how or why?


why? because frankly, your either full of ****, or psycho-acoustics is draining your bank account


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## TurboTR

Sure- I accept! Seriously. What do you propose to test?

And you have personally been in on some of those scientific blind tests where the backpedaling occurred, right? Please provide an example of your favorite incident.

Do you have a favorite piece of gear? Pick one piece. Why do you like it more than the rest- because it looks prettier, or? Surely it doesn't sound any different, right? If it does (and you're only imagining it, right Dr?) can you explain exactly why it does, technically? Please do so.

So nobody here on DIYma finds it odd that the couple of dominant members angrily demand that everything sounds the same, no exceptions? Really? And the herd here are ok with that "leadership"? Lol..




strakele said:


> I was just about to offer him $1000 if he could reliably hear a difference in a blind test, but heck, that's a much better deal!
> 
> Funny how all the claims of 'clear and obvious differences' suddenly turn into excuses and backpedaling every time someone offers a test with any scientific merit.


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## TurboTR

Hmm.. could be! Mr internet tough guy!



SkizeR said:


> why? because frankly, your either full of ****, or psycho-acoustics is draining your bank account


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## TurboTR

BTW- you're pretty proud of your signature system there. Zapco- does it sound better than other gear, or are you just name dropping to try and impress the herd here? 

If it does sound better than other stuff, why does it? Specifically, technically.

We'll wait.



SkizeR said:


> why? because frankly, your either full of ****, or psycho-acoustics is draining your bank account


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## TurboTR

TurboTR said:


> BTW- you're pretty proud of your signature system there. Zapco- does it sound better than other gear, or are you just name dropping to try and impress the herd here?
> 
> If it does sound better than other stuff, why does it? Specifically, technically.
> 
> We'll wait.



Well.. IS Zapco really any better than a Boss AR1500M ARMOR 1,500-Watt Mono Mosfet Amplifier? Those are impressive sounding terms after all. MOSFETs, oh my!

If Zapco is better sounding- why? Please be specific.

Or do you claim that there is no audible difference? Would Zapco agree?


----------



## TurboTR

TurboTR said:


> Sure- I accept! Seriously. What do you propose to test?
> 
> And you have personally been in on some of those scientific blind tests where the backpedaling occurred, right? Please provide an example of your favorite incident.
> 
> Do you have a favorite piece of gear? Pick one piece. Why do you like it more than the rest- because it looks prettier, or? Surely it doesn't sound any different, right? If it does (and you're only imagining it, right Dr?) can you explain exactly why it does, technically? Please do so.
> 
> So nobody here on DIYma finds it odd that the couple of dominant members angrily demand that everything sounds the same, no exceptions? Really? And the herd here are ok with that "leadership"? Lol..



Anxious to hear some of the incidents you've been in on where the audio pretenders have been flushed out in scientific a/b testing and it was once again proven that there is no such thing as audible differences.

This will be VERY informative. Waiting, waiting..


----------



## Jesus Christ

TurboTR said:


> the couple of dominant members angrily demand that everything sounds the same, no exceptions?


Please provide one example of where anyone has ever said that here.




TurboTR said:


> BTW- you're pretty proud of your signature system there. Zapco- does it sound better than other gear, or are you just name dropping to try and impress the herd here?
> 
> If it does sound better than other stuff, why does it? Specifically, technically.


Considering the built in dsp it's not hard to imagine they can be made to sound better than other amps.


----------



## Victor_inox

How about you stay focused on fuses and perhaps on wiring? Don`t switch attention to active gear. Are you saying that you can pick your fuse in any amplifier power supply over any other fuse?


----------



## TurboTR

No, the fuses question is over. You've all agreed that there cannot be and therefor is no difference possible. Even though none of you have even tried it..

My position was stated pretty clear too that not all gear can resolve subtle differences. My home setup is very high resolution and it can do alot.

How about it- waiting on a technical explanation on how does a Zapco amplifier sound any different than a $50 Boss? Not all Zapco have digital EQ, but leaving any digital EQ bypassed here. Please be specific. None of the PhD or Dr will step up here?

Lacking one, you're then implying that there is no audible difference in these amps? Seriously?




Victor_inox said:


> How about you stay focused on fuses and perhaps on wiring? Don`t switch attention to active gear. Are you saying that you can pick your fuse in any amplifier power supply over any other fuse?


----------



## lurch

i can hear my fuse resonating at 40hz, it really adds to the bass .....
oh wait... i forgot to tighten it down ...


----------



## Victor_inox

TurboTR said:


> No, the fuses question is over. You've all agreed that there cannot be and therefor is no difference possible. Even though none of you have even tried it..
> 
> My position was stated pretty clear too that not all gear can resolve subtle differences. My home setup is very high resolution and it can do alot.
> 
> How about it- waiting on a technical explanation on how does a Zapco amplifier sound any different than a $50 Boss? Not all Zapco have digital EQ, but leaving any digital EQ bypassed here. Please be specific. None of the PhD or Dr will step up here?
> 
> Lacking one, you're then implying that there is no audible difference in these amps? Seriously?


how the **** you know what has or has not being tried? 
none of us started talking about amplifiers, we have multiple threads dedicated to exactly that. 
I suggest you stay on topic or go troll somewhere else.

BTW I`m sure you very proud of your home setup but there is nothing I could see in that picture that impressive.


----------



## TurboTR

Hey good one!

And how silly of a person to expect that a site called "*DIY*" m*Audio* would actually you know, umm, try some sonic experiments and stuff. Silly silly!

How about it- waiting on a technical explanation om how specifically does a Zapco amplifier sound any different than a $50 Boss? 

If there is no sound technical explanation- DIYma consensus is then, and all here agree that there is no *real* audible difference in these amps?

Mr Zapco said that I was quote _full of ****_ unquote since I admitted freely that I cannot explain technically how a fuse can make a sonic difference. Thus there can be no sonic difference possible, and I'm a delusional idiot basically.

Soooo.. following that logic and reasoning- how exactly does that Zapco best the Boss sonically? Or does the Boss best the Zapco? Anyone wanna step up? Beuller? Beuller?

If there is no audible difference, why would someone spend $1000+ on a lower powered amp from Zapco when they could enjoy 1500W/pc of pure MOSFET muscle for $60?

To me, Zapco's site looks a little kiddie doper on technical explanation:

I would suggest that the BOSS amp also has "high quality caps", "low noise audio op amps", and also has "bi-polar output devices" (not the MOSFET model). So where's the explanation?
_
*The ST-X amplifiers are the smaller lighter amps you need for today’s smaller lighter cars. (ed- LOL) But with the Zapco ST-X amps, smaller doesn’t mean weaker or softer. (ed- LOL) * With the ST-S amps you get all the power and sound quality you expect from Zapco. The Studio-X compact chassis makes it an easy fit in any car and even in motorcycle fairings. The square, low profile chassis also means it will be easy to trim out for a great looking installation so your system will look as awesome as it sounds.
*And speaking of sound…This is a Zapco amplifier and sound is what it’s all about. The Class A/B Zapco amplifiers for mids and highs havce the same high quality caps, 5532 op-amps,and bi-polar outputs that made the C2K and Reference series amps the industry standard for sound quality. 
*_


----------



## TurboTR

Ah another net tough guy! Lol. Ok, have you tried it? What did you find? Please explain your finding trying different fuses.



Victor_inox said:


> how the **** you know what has or has not being tried?
> none of us started talking about amplifiers, we have multiple threads dedicated to exactly that.
> I suggest you stay on topic or go troll somewhere else.
> 
> BTW I`m sure you very proud of your home setup but there is nothing I could see in that picture that impressive.


----------



## Aldaa

If a fuse affects sound quality, distribution blocks must affect it as well. Let's not forget about terminal strips, especially those IN the signal path. 

-__________-


----------



## SkizeR

Your assuming I bought my amps for their "sonic signature". If this is the case, your totally wrong

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## OldSchoolAddict

TurboTR said:


> Do you have a favorite piece of gear? Pick one piece. Why do you like it more than the rest- because it looks prettier, or? Surely it doesn't sound any different, right? If it does (and you're only imagining it, right Dr?) can you explain exactly why it does,


My favorite piece of gear is my USAMPS US400, it's a massive two foot long surf board amp and so far I haven't found another amp that sounds as pleasing to my ears 

Why does it sound so good? It certainly isn't because of it's fusing. I believe it's because it's a straight through design. There is No internal processing or anything, just a gain pot.

Or maybe Its the Brilliant pebbles I use in the car...


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Turbo... This is getting off topic in a big way. Skizer is holding an amp sound test and if you'd like to show up with some fuses to test this out I'm sure he'd oblige.

Furthermore, you dug up an old thread about fuses. You said they change the sound quality... Claimed it's the truth even if it hurt our feelings... Then said you have no idea why.

This is on you. If you want to argue other topics then engage the right thread.

As for me, I will not be changing my fuses at any point in the future to fix any response issues. I'll probably look at my eq first.


----------



## SkizeR

I800C0LLECT said:


> Turbo... This is getting off topic in a big way. Skizer is holding an amp sound test and if you'd like to show up with some fuses to test this out I'm sure he'd oblige.
> 
> Furthermore, you dug up an old thread about fuses. You said they change the sound quality... Claimed it's the truth even if it hurt our feelings... Then said you have no idea why.
> 
> This is on you. If you want to argue other topics then engage the right thread.
> 
> As for me, I will not be changing my fuses at any point in the future to fix any response issues. I'll probably look at my eq first.


im doing it today actually. that is, if i can figure out why my head unit stopped putting out signal -___- and i didnt say amps do or dont sound different. but to say fusing, wires, and interconnects sound different to the point of it being audible is just asinine. also assuming i bought my amps for their "sonic signature" is also just as asinine. i bought them for the looks, features, and price. idk how many times i have to explain that to these self proclaimed audiophiles on this site. if i actually had to pay full retail for them (which would be just over 4500 dollars) i would have never even considered them. for the 6 in my sig, i actually paid a total of about 1300. all brand new. 1300 for about 3500 watts rms of 8 channels of class ab amps THAT HAVE BUILT IN PROCESSING and look as good as anything else is an absolute no brainer


----------



## craiggus365

SkizeR said:


> im doing it today actually. that is, if i can figure out why my head unit stopped putting out signal -___-


Crappy, low quality Fuses?


----------



## OldSchoolAddict

SkizeR said:


> im doing it today actually. that is, if i can figure out why my head unit stopped putting out signal -___-


elevate your cables at least 3 inches above the floor lol


----------



## benny

TurboTR said:


> I can't! That's the point. Nor do I bother trying. I don't know everything; nobody does. And That's ok. What's happening is beyond my understanding.
> 
> Just like I/we can't understand or comprehend really how a seed in the ground grows and turns into a living plant for example. It's beyond our understanding. Does that mean it can't happen then? No, of course not.


Actually, if you asked some biologists, I'm sure some of them would have a pretty good handle on that seed thing. Come to think of it, if I go waaaay back, I remember learning about that in public school.


----------



## OldSchoolAddict

The depths of his ignorance, from copper strands wrapped in a plastic jacket all the way to how a seed cracks and sprouts out of the ground.

I bet his house system costs over 50 thousand, easy.


----------



## strakele

TurboTR said:


> Sure- I accept! Seriously. What do you propose to test?
> 
> I propose a blind A/B/X test on a high resolution system where the only variable is the fuse used between the battery and main power distribution. You listen and 'easily' pick out the 'obvious' sonic differences.
> 
> And you have personally been in on some of those scientific blind tests where the backpedaling occurred, right? Please provide an example of your favorite incident.
> 
> Personally, no. Even if someone was successful in a blind A/B/X test of amps/cables/fuses/etc. I wouldn't run out and go buy whatever was supposedly better, because I have a DSP that I can use to change the sound in any way I desire. But I've read tons of tests, notably the Richard Clark amp test where literally THOUSANDS of self proclaimed audiophiles who could 'clearly hear the difference' between amps were suddenly unable to do much better than 50% under scientific conditions. There's the James Randi tests referenced earlier that never even happened due to excuses and packpedaling. There's the blind amplifier test arranged and conducted by a respected member of this site where multiple people (who were hoping and trying to hear a difference) couldn't hear a difference between a wide variety of different amplifiers. Bob Carver challenge, etc. The expensive speaker wire vs lamp cord test. List goes on.
> 
> Do you have a favorite piece of gear? Pick one piece. Why do you like it more than the rest- because it looks prettier, or? Surely it doesn't sound any different, right? If it does (and you're only imagining it, right Dr?) can you explain exactly why it does, technically? Please do so.
> 
> I like all of my gear. Everything I have selected fits the space I have, my desired install, and my budget. I have a head unit, DSP, amplifiers, speakers, and all the associated wiring. The only thing that affects the sound of my system are the speakers and most importantly, the adjustments I make on the DSP.
> 
> So nobody here on DIYma finds it odd that the couple of dominant members angrily demand that everything sounds the same, no exceptions? Really? And the herd here are ok with that "leadership"? Lol..


Nobody is saying EVERYTHING sounds the same. Speakers with measurably different response and distortion curves obviously sound different. Amplifiers with intentionally non-linear response curves sound different. But the wires through which the electrons flow to these components simply doesn't, assuming it's anywhere near properly sized for the job.



TurboTR said:


> Anxious to hear some of the incidents you've been in on...
> 
> This will be VERY informative. Waiting, waiting..


Chill out bro. I posted my last response at like 11:30 pm. Some of us have better things to do than argue about fuses.



TurboTR said:


> Hey good one!
> 
> And how silly of a person to expect that a site called "*DIY*" m*Audio* would actually you know, umm, try some sonic experiments and stuff. Silly silly!
> 
> This site was founded many years ago with one of its expressed goals being separating myth and sales tactics from scientific facts. If you think people on this site haven't tried everything in the book (and some things way outside the book) in pursuit of better sound, you're sadly mistaken. Over time, the things that actually work to improve sound have been further developed, and the things that don't have been left behind. People here will completely cut up and rebuild the dash of a $30,000 car in order to put speakers in a sonically better location. They'll cut holes in the car to vent speakers outside to give them a true infinite baffle type install if that's what makes the speakers sound best. They'll sacrifice foot room and the dead pedal to put speakers in the kick panels to optimize path length differences to each of the front seats. They'll make their car significantly less serviceable by adding expanding foam to reduce resonances and layers of sound deadening in the doors and dash to make the car quieter. All of these things make a real, measurable difference. You think people willing to spend that much time and money and make that type of modifications to their cars in pursuit of better sound wouldn't use a different cable or fuse if it actually made a difference?
> 
> How about it- waiting on a technical explanation om how specifically does a Zapco amplifier sound any different than a $50 Boss?
> 
> Played within the same range, it doesn't.
> 
> If there is no sound technical explanation- DIYma consensus is then, and all here agree that there is no *real* audible difference in these amps?
> 
> Correct.
> 
> Soooo.. following that logic and reasoning- how exactly does that Zapco best the Boss sonically? Or does the Boss best the Zapco? Anyone wanna step up? Beuller? Beuller?
> 
> It doesn't. The Zapco does best the Boss in actual power, features, after sale support, and looks.
> 
> If there is no audible difference, why would someone spend $1000+ on a lower powered amp from Zapco when they could enjoy 1500W/pc of pure MOSFET muscle for $60?
> 
> Because the Zapco will actually make rated power and it has DSP built in and they don't look like they were designed for a teenager.
> 
> I would suggest that the BOSS amp also has "high quality caps"...
> 
> Really dude? Really? Obvious troll is obvious. You ever seen the inside of a Boss amp? You're just getting silly. A Boss amp with a linear frequency response will sound the same as any other amp when played within its range. The problem is they can only make about 1/10th of the power that's written on the side, don't look great, and will likely fail in a shorter period of time. That's why people spend more money on amplifiers - power, reliability, features, and looks. Not cause one has "airy-er highs and tighter bass."


----------



## mikey7182

TurboTR said:


> No, the fuses question is over. You've all agreed that there cannot be and therefor is no difference possible. Even though none of you have even tried it..
> 
> My position was stated pretty clear too that not all gear can resolve subtle differences. My home setup is very high resolution and it can do alot.
> 
> How about it- waiting on a technical explanation on how does a Zapco amplifier sound any different than a $50 Boss? Not all Zapco have digital EQ, but leaving any digital EQ bypassed here. Please be specific. None of the PhD or Dr will step up here?
> 
> Lacking one, you're then implying that there is no audible difference in these amps? Seriously?


The fuses question wasn't over until you ended it by somehow jumping from "fuses can't impact the sound" to "well apparently NOTHING affects the sound then." I'm not sure where the bridge was there. Surely nobody in this thread suggested that, as far as I can tell. 

Are you at least willing to acknowledge the reality of psychoacoustics? This is well documented, and the second you changed your fuse to a different one, then sat back down to listen to your setup again, all your objectivity had already diminished, as it does when anyone makes a change to their gear then tries to do an A/B comparison. A variety of factors affect this, including whatever time or money or other emotional investment you had wrapped up in the new gear, your own expectations of whether or not a difference would exist, etc. This general topic has been beaten dead for years. It isn't that you aren't hearing a difference, but rather, what is causing that difference. There is a chasm between:

Scenario A: Two identical setups in identical environments where each setup has a different fuse, and after listening to reference material, you were able to identify which system sounded better and it was a result of the better fuse,

and

Scenario B: You research "high end fuses" then change it out in your setup and sit down for a listening session to see if it made a difference (despite your stated skepticism)

You want people to keep their snarky comments to a minimum, but you are making unsubstantiated emotional claims about things that ought to be quantifiable, and that fly in the face of every blind test that has ever been done. Naturally, a company charging $8,400 for a power plug or $22,000 for a pair of RCA cables is going to tell you that they believe the audible difference justifies the cost, and you're more inclined to hear that difference because you plunked down your AmEx, not because an actual difference exists. 

As for seed germination...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germination

I'm not sure where the mystery lies, or what your attempted comparison was there? Just because you don't personally understand something, doesn't mean it is unknown to humanity. Besides, it isn't up for debate that a seed grows into a plant; it is verifiable and observable to anyone. Still, I'm sure there are companies out there selling magic spring water at $9,000 a liter that infuses seedlings with nutrients that have life-extending properties when you consume the fruit, because there will always be a certain percentage of the population that "hears the difference" despite the extraordinary, outlandish, unsubstantiated claims.


----------



## Fetus

Once upon a time, a group of people gathered from every corner of the known world. Some of these people were seeking answers to questions they had. Some others were experts in their respective fields, gathering with this group to share any knowledge they can. Questions and knowledge would flow from person to person, which would inevitably lead to more questions, then more, then more.

Then one day, someone asked a peculiar question.

"Are unicorns real?"

The group erupted into conversation. Everyone shared their personal experiences, be it practical or philosophical. A general consensus was reached, though as sometimes happened, more questions were raised.

"Some have heard rumours of the superior strength and agility of unicorns, however there doesn't seem to be any reason for us to believe that unicorns exist. But please tell, what made you ask?"

"Well, I have come across merchants in my travels, claiming to sell unicorns."

"Ah, yes. Many of us have come across such merchants from time to time. Rest assured that, upon further investigation, they were found to be nothing more than horses with a glittery horn glued to its head. In all trials of these 'unicorns,' they were found to behave exactly the same as a horse of the same size, albeit for significantly more money."

Most were happy with this response. Most.

"Untrue!" Exclaimed a member of the group.
"I have personality seen many unicorns, and have witnessed the remarkable differences between unicorns and horses first hand!"

This piqued the curiosity of some members of the group.

"Really? Well, could you tell us more about these unicorns?"

"Certainly! Each unicorn is unique in its own right, no two unicorns perform the same. In fact i have two unicorns of my own!"

Obviously, this caused quite a shock. The group wanted to learn the truth about unicorns, once and for all. After some debate, it was organised that the member would pit his unicorns against several horses in many different trials, designed to quantify the performance of unicorns compared to horses of similar size. The terms were agreed to, and a date was set.

The day came for the trials. As no one had yet seen the supposed unicorns, horses of different sizes and breeds were gathered from many members of the group to ensure fairness in the judging. The last to arrive were the unicorns.

People flocked around to cast their eyes on the unicorns, and were quite taken aback by what lay before them. It was quite obvious to some members that these were not unicorns at all. They appeared to be nothing more than an average horse with a horn affixed to their forehead. Although the "unicorns" were well groomed, these horns were the only thing that seemed to differentiate them from the horses.

The group were understandably skeptical, sensing that there was almost no need to continue with any trials. 

"Nonsense!" The unicorn owner proclaimed.
"I can guarantee that my unicorns will outperform any horse in any trial!"

And so, it was decided that the trials would continue. 

First was a trial of speed. Horses and unicorns were timed as they ran a course. Many members waited at the finish line, timepieces in hand. Once all speed trials had been run, the times were compared. There appeared to be no difference in speed between a horse and a unicorn.

Next was a trial of endurance. Carts were loaded with weight, measured to ensure uniform weight between each cart. The carts were attached to the horses and unicorns, which would pull them as far as they could. 

After many hours, horse and unicorn alike had stopped pulling the weight. Lo and behold, the unicorns had not pulled the weight any further than you would reasonably expect a horse of the same size.

The trials continued, but in all cases, the unicorns performed as you would expect a horse of comparable size to perform.

The results did not look good for the unicorns, or for the owner, who was adamant that the unicorns would significantly outperform any horse.

"Well sir, it appears as though your so-called unicorns perform no better than a horse."

"What do you mean? It is obvious that they performed significantly better!"

This response confused the group. Had they all not witnessed the same trials? 

"I'm sorry, my good man, but in any and all trials, the results between your unicorns and the horses were comparable. Were it not for the distraction of that glistening horn, there would be no way to differentiate between your unicorn and the average horse.

"So, you're telling me that you can't tell the difference between my unicorns, and that horse over there?" The man pointed towards a donkey, which had not been included in the trials.

It was obvious the man had started to become irritated, though any attempt to reason with him was met with more hostility.

"And you're telling me that there is no difference between a locomotive and a bicycle!?"

"Sir, please. We are here today to get to the bottom of the the unicorn situation. We reiterate that, by all accounts, your unicorns do not perform any better than a horse."

"But I think they perform better. Isn't that all that counts?"

"Well... No. I mean, if you would prefer to own one of these so-called unicorns over an average horse, that is your decision. But any performance or endurance benefits you perceive would all be in your head."

"But they are real benefits! Just because you cant quantify these benefits in any trial, does not make them any less real!"

The heat of the day had started taking its toll on the group. It was at this moment, the man wiped his forehead, which exposed putrid green coloured skin. It was dawning on the group that they had been in the company of a troll all along. His claims were swiftly dismissed, and no one paid any further attention to his rhetoric, crafted specifically to garner emotional responses from members of the group. Everyone continued on their merry way, and they all lived happily ever after.


----------



## cajunner

the question of a fuse, seems to have hung temporally around my neck as I proposed to sell one of exquisite performance and ultimate power, for the right price.

as I remembered my own experiences having fuses that were cheap, and then the real stuff not Chinese origin, there were definite differences to be found, any of the various permutations of fuse can be susceptible to lowest denominator bean counting.


and so with that in mind I felt relatively safe that I could devise a fuse that would outperform the market, the "garden variety" domestic product, and then going further, examining the crud that comes off the boat.

making such comparative studies, I would then approach the fuse building project with a set of known variables, and proceed to throw money at it until I've reached a consensus, or at least a scientifically sound reasoning for my fuse operating at the very top of the class, or superior in every way possible with the contrast of a poorest measured performing example from the Chinese reject samples.

with that much of an operating envelope whereby one fuse actively restricts power and yet maintains integrity without heating up the contact points excessively enough to melt solder or at worst, melt the holder, and the other end of it, where the fuse remains cool and allows the most current through right up to it's designed popping point, the difference in watts through the circuit should be not only measurable but repeatable, and with consistency comes proof...


but any fuse that works for the test duration will be sufficiently "good" that the amount of heat generated by the poorly made fuse will cause it to heat and fail, or cause the failure of surrounding bits.

so upon further examination, I do not feel confident that I can construct a fuse that is audibly superior, since the amount of redistributed current by a poor specimen is such that over a short test duration will cause failure to the fuse, and the amount of current necessary to produce failure of the bad fuse is not significant enough over the supplied current of a normally operating amplifier to be audible, since it will take several minutes of play where a miniscule amount of current loss due to heat, will accumulate and as it is distributed over time, there is no way to show an audible impact since it's spread so thinly across the time dimensional test criterion.

I must retract my bid to prove scientifically that I can build a fuse to audibly support the OP's desired goals, and go with the herd here.

I however am still open for offers of building a fine fuse, a fuse one would be proud to own, a fuse created in the tradition of Mordor and the ring, you can even call it the Precious, fuse...

naming rights are available for a price, quantities limited, act now, hurry as this offer is set to expire in 33 years....


----------



## hurrication

TurboTR said:


> And you have personally been in on some of those scientific blind tests where the backpedaling occurred, right? Please provide an example of your favorite incident.


Bro, audiophiles can't even tell a difference between good speaker wire and coat hangers.

Do Coat Hangers Sound As Good Monster Cables? – Consumerist


----------



## 1996blackmax

I remember that from years back...pretty funny actually.


----------



## sbeezy

Uh Skizer I need your Zapco hookup!


----------



## SkizeR

sbeezy said:


> Uh Skizer I need your Zapco hookup!


He's on ebay. I just get them cheaper than he lists since I'm local and have bought a bunch so far

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Duncanbullet

My focal amp makes everything i play sound french. I like to listen to Dave Matthews while wearing a beret, and eating snails with baguette bread. 
My older DD amp made my music sound american, so it could fit in while i wore cut off jean shorts, white tank top, drink bud light, all while listening to the NASCAR race on FM.


----------



## gstokes

Maybe the fuse was dirty which caused SQ to suffer


----------



## Victor_inox

I`ll tell you what you need - new friend because one you have is a tool.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

To answer the OP question, of course the quality of the fuses make a huge difference. I've been an electrician for 30 years. 


AN ELECTRICAL CIRCUIT IS ONLY AS GOOD AS ITS WEAKEST LINK. 

What good is it to run expensive heavy duty copper cabling the size of a thumb or finger and get a cheap fuse that:

1. Hardly makes contact between the fuse holder and fuse. That will generate heat, increase resistance, and decrease power. That in essence makes the entire run of heavy cable useless.

The whole point of running heavy wire is to reduce voltage drop. In other words keep the voltage as high as possible.

2. Has a tiny wire in the fuse that all the electricity has to flow through is in essence a choke point. 

I would recommend the most expensive fuses that have three paths of current instead of one, that are made from the best materials possible, ( gold plated ) to allow for the highest flow of current. 

And for those of you who do not believe that the reduction of power can have any effect on sound quality you are foolish. 

It really all just comes down to resistance. The more resistance one has in a circuit, the less power. 

Good Clean Power equals Good Sound Quality. 

Think about it. When one has a loose or dirty connection what does it sound like? Dirty, static, lousy. 

The whole case in expensive cables just boils down to resistance. The less resistance one has in a circuit the better the signal. The better the signal the better the sound quality. PERIOD!!!


----------



## gstokes

You are assuming the fuse or connection at fuse was causing a voltage drop, assuming there was no voltage drop using one type of fuse or another it makes absolutely no difference what type of fuse you use and by using dissimilar metals such as chrome plated steel and gold plated fuse you are inviting corrosion (which would cause a voltage drop), the only time it would matter is if there was a voltage drop and installing a different type of fuse (accidentally) fixed the voltage drop..


----------



## thehatedguy

I thought the whole purpose of the "choke point" would be for the fuse to pop rather than burn something up.


----------



## Hanatsu

High Resolution Audio said:


> AN ELECTRICAL CIRCUIT IS ONLY AS GOOD AS ITS WEAKEST LINK.


That's the purpose of a fuse... being the weakest link


----------



## ca90ss

High Resolution Audio said:


> I've been an electrician for 30 years.


It would probably be a good idea for you to seek a new profession before you burn something down or kill someone.


----------



## gstokes

You should probably delete that comment..


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Fuses are good and they protect from damaging equipment and fires. But, I've seen a lot of cheap fuses and fuse holders ($9.99) that are poor quality. And they add resistance to the circuit. 

A good fuse holder that makes for tight connections and does not create excessive resistance is worth it in my opinion.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

gstokes said:


> You should probably delete that comment..


Good Idea!


----------



## High Resolution Audio

gstokes said:


> You are assuming the fuse or connection at fuse was causing a voltage drop, assuming there was no voltage drop using one type of fuse or another it makes absolutely no difference what type of fuse you use and by using dissimilar metals such as chrome plated steel and gold plated fuse you are inviting corrosion (which would cause a voltage drop), the only time it would matter is if there was a voltage drop and installing a different type of fuse (accidentally) fixed the voltage drop..


Gold does not corrode.


----------



## gijoe

High Resolution Audio said:


> Fuses are good and they protect from damaging equipment and fires. But, I've seen a lot of cheap fuses and fuse holders ($9.99) that are poor quality. And they add resistance to the circuit.
> 
> A good fuse holder that makes for tight connections and does not create excessive resistance is worth it in my opinion.


While I agree that nobody wants a crappy fuseholder in their car, I don't agree that the quality of a fuse makes an impact on the sound quality. It improves safety sure, but not sound quality. Take a fuse that you would consider too cheap for your install, then take one of your high quality gold plates fuses, now measure the resistance. After you do that, calculate the voltage drop in the circuit with each fuse. You'll see such an insignificant voltage drop that simply turning on the dome light in the car will have a bigger affect than the quality of the fuse. You won't get a voltage drop large enough to make any difference at all by choosing different fuses. You might keep your car from burning down though, if you have a fuse that rattles around in the holder.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

This makes for a much better fuse holder:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ue&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_20&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Than this:

http://www.amazon.com/Scoshe-EWFH-Single-Fuse-Holder/dp/B000KIR8M0


----------



## gijoe

High Resolution Audio said:


> This makes for a much better fuse holder:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ue&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_20&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
> 
> Than this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Scoshe-EWFH-Single-Fuse-Holder/dp/B000KIR8M0


Agreed, but is it audibly better?

A corvette isn't built as well as a 911, but performs as well. There is certainly a difference in the quality of those two products, but they are identical with regard to their ability to reproduce music cleanly. The point is, the fuse will have nothing to do with the sound quality.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

gijoe said:


> While I agree that nobody wants a crappy fuseholder in their car, I don't agree that the quality of a fuse makes an impact on the sound quality. It improves safety sure, but not sound quality. Take a fuse that you would consider too cheap for your install, then take one of your high quality gold plates fuses, now measure the resistance. After you do that, calculate the voltage drop in the circuit with each fuse. You'll see such an insignificant voltage drop that simply turning on the dome light in the car will have a bigger affect than the quality of the fuse. You won't get a voltage drop large enough to make any difference at all by choosing different fuses. You might keep your car from burning down though, if you have a fuse that rattles around in the holder.


Are you going to be measuring resistance with no load? Or a small load?, a medium load, or a large load?

Are you going to measure the resistance before the connections heat up and the resistance goes up? Or after as they would occur in real life?

Did you know digital meters are too sensitive to give an accurate voltage reading on certain occasions.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> This makes for a much better fuse holder:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ue&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_20&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
> 
> Than this:
> 
> Amazon.com: E2 by Scoshe EWFH Single ANL Fuse Holder: Car Electronics


Why? Tell me why it's better? Like hell I'm going to pay $70+ for a "Fuse holder"

Especially since I've been running that very Scosche fuse holder setup for the past 3-4 years. BTW in my engine bay


----------



## High Resolution Audio

gijoe said:


> Agreed, but is it audibly better?
> 
> A corvette isn't built as well as a 911, but performs as well. There is certainly a difference in the quality of those two products, but they are identical with regard to their ability to reproduce music cleanly. The point is, the fuse will have nothing to do with the sound quality.


Its all about resistance. If you have more resistance the sound quality will diminish. The signal path that makes a sound wave that ultimately ends up at your ear starts at the battery. 

The whole signal path starts at your battery and ends at your brain. Everything in between matters. Including the density and temperature of the air. All will have some sort of effect on sound quality.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Beckerson1 said:


> Why? Tell me why it's better?


Less resistance.


----------



## gijoe

High Resolution Audio said:


> Are you going to be measuring resistance with no load? Or a small load?, a medium load, or a large load?
> 
> Are you going to measure the resistance before the connections heat up and the resistance goes up? Or after as they would occur in real life?
> 
> Did you know digital meters are too sensitive to give an accurate voltage reading without a load?


Add a load, and only swap the fuse. The fuse isn't going to make a difference in the voltage drop across the circuit. The difference in resistance from one 1/4" piece of metal to another isn't going to have an impact on the sound of the system. It may end up having an impact on the safety and longevity, but it won't impact the sound.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> Less resistance.


OK... One can "assume" it will have less resistance. Yet have you've ever tested it? I bet if I go out and test the resistance of that Scosche fuse holder and generic fuse it will be well within acceptable range. 

Even if it has .005 ohms less resistance its not worth the X10 price point


----------



## ca90ss

High Resolution Audio said:


> This makes for a much better fuse holder:
> 
> Amazon.com: Go Power! FBL-400 Class T 400 Amp Fuse with Block: Automotive
> 
> Than this:
> 
> Amazon.com: E2 by Scoshe EWFH Single ANL Fuse Holder: Car Electronics


I wouldn't use either but given the choice I'd take a stud with a lock washer and nut over a set screw any day.


----------



## gijoe

High Resolution Audio said:


> Its all about resistance. If you have more resistance the sound quality will diminish. The signal path that makes a sound wave that ultimately ends up at your ear starts at the battery.
> 
> The whole signal path starts at your battery and ends at your brain. Everything in between matters. Including the density and temperature of the air. All will have some sort of effect on sound quality.


No. More resistance will not diminish the sound quality, until you get to the lower limit of the amp. The amp already sees voltage drops of more than a couple of volts during normal driving. A fuse with negligible resistance isn't going cause more voltage drop than turning on the heater, high beams, dome light, opening the glove box, or tapping the brake. Any one of those things will cause a larger voltage drop than a cheap fuse would compared to a fancy fuse.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Beckerson1 said:


> OK... One can "assume" it will have less resistance. Yet have you've ever tested it? I bet if I go out and test the resistance of that Scosche fuse holder and generic fuse it will be well within acceptable range.
> 
> Even if it has .005 ohms less resistance its not worth the X10 price point


It's the resistance of the fuse itself, and fuse holder, and all of the connections made. The terminations etc. And that resistance will change significantly with a poor connection UNDER LOAD, thus causing heat and even more resistance.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> It's the resistance of the fuse itself, and fuse holder, and all of the connections made. The terminations etc. And that resistance will change significantly with a poor connection UNDER LOAD, thus causing heat and even more resistance.


Worst case scenario man... Even then it doesn't have anything to do with SQ in the end.

Your always going to have resistance. You can argue all you want that you may save a couple thousandths of a ohm using this vs that but when you do the math your only saving a small chunk (efficiency wise). It's just not worth the hassle 


The whole concept of a fuse is resistance. It's how it functions


----------



## High Resolution Audio

gijoe said:


> No. More resistance will not diminish the sound quality, until you get to the lower limit of the amp. The amp already sees voltage drops of more than a couple of volts during normal driving. A fuse with negligible resistance isn't going cause more voltage drop than turning on the heater, high beams, dome light, opening the glove box, or tapping the brake. Any one of those things will cause a larger voltage drop than a cheap fuse would compared to a fancy fuse.


Its not just the amp, it's the resistance of the entire run from the battery to the speaker. RCAs included as well as the resistance of speaker wiring, amp internals, fuses, wires, terminations, etc. 

Voltage drop on 115 Volt circuits matters little. If it drops 5 volts, one still has 110 volts of "push".

5 volts less on a 12 volt circuit leaves 7, which is not enough to run stereo equipment. 

Every little bit counts.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Beckerson1 said:


> Worst case scenario man... Even then it doesn't have anything to do with SQ in the end.


Resistance has everything to do with sound quality.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> Its not just the amp, it's the resistance of the entire run from the battery to the speaker. RCAs included as well as the resistance of speaker wiring, amp internals, fuses, wires, terminations, etc.
> 
> Voltage drop on 115 Volt circuits matters little. If it drops 5 volts, one still has 110 volts of "push".
> 
> 5 volts less on a 12 volt circuit leaves 7, which is not enough to run stereo equipment.
> 
> Every little bit counts.


Well now we're just pulling numbers. Unless your running 20 gauge wire (as a power wire) and expect it to push a 1k RMS system I could imagine numbers like that.

We go from quality of fuses, to fuses and fuse holders, to now the absolute worst case scenario install one could do.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> Resistance has everything to do with sound quality.


RESISTANCE CONSTANTLY CHANGES FOR A SPEAKER.... Since your stuck on resistance


one moment its 14 ohms the next is 90 ohms. It's all over the place while the speaker is being driven. You'd have a better chance at adjusting your speakers aiming then worrying about what fuse you use, or what fuse holder you use, or what RCA you use, or whether a 10' speaker wire run sounds better then a 15' speaker wire run...


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Beckerson1 said:


> Well now we're just pulling numbers. Unless your running 20 gauge wire (as a power wire) and expect it to push a 1k RMS system I could imagine numbers like that.
> 
> We go from quality of fuses, to fuses and fuse holders, to now the absolute worst case scenario install one could do.


If you have very efficient equipment, then one doesn't need to worry as much as someone that is running equipment that draws more power. 

The numbers represent percentages. A small difference on a 12 volt system leads to a significant percentage of loss. Only 1.2 volts is 10% loss.


----------



## Hanatsu

Technically it's 'impedance' when talking about speakers... 

If you want as good conductivity as possible, then both silver and copper is superior to gold. Gold plated connections are used because it's resistant to corrosion. If you got a 1.2V voltage drop over a fuse holder you got installation issues.


----------



## Hanatsu




----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> If you have very efficient equipment, then one doesn't need to worry as much as someone that is running equipment that draws more power.
> 
> The numbers represent percentages. A small difference on a 12 volt system leads to a significant percentage of loss. Only 1.2 volts is 10% loss.


Let me ask you this.

is that 10% voltage loss at the amp going to result in a 10% loss of audio quality? 

If this were the case we wouldn't be able to handle audio in a car. The voltage in a vehicle is changing constantly. In my car once my fans kick on my voltage drops a couple tenths of a volt and then recovers. Short of re running the entire wiring in my car I can't help that.

Explain to me why I can't hear this voltage drop when listening to my system.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Hanatsu said:


> Technically it's 'impedance' when talking about speakers...
> 
> If you want as good conductivity as possible, then both silver and copper is superior to gold. Gold plated connections are used because it's resistant to corrosion. If you got a 1.2V voltage drop over a fuse holder you got installation issues.



We are not talking about 1.2 Volts over the fuse holder. We are talking about the entire electrical path from the battery to the speaker terminals. Every little bit counts.

And that voltage reading is taken under load.


----------



## Beckerson1

Hanatsu said:


> Technically it's 'impedance' when talking about speakers...
> 
> If you want as good conductivity as possible, then both silver and copper is superior to gold. Gold plated connections are used because it's resistant to corrosion. If you got a 1.2V voltage drop over a fuse holder you got installation issues.


True it is.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Beckerson1 said:


> Let me ask you this.
> 
> is that 10% voltage loss at the amp going to result in a 10% loss of audio quality?
> 
> If this were the case we wouldn't be able to handle audio in a car. The voltage in a vehicle is changing constantly. In my car once my fans kick on my voltage drops a couple tenths of a volt and then recovers. Short of re running the entire wiring in my car I can't help that.
> 
> Explain to me why I can't hear this voltage drop when listening to my system.


This is why one needs to do the "big three" when installing a system. To eliminate as much resistance as possible.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> We are not talking about 1.2 Volts over the fuse holder. We are talking about the entire electrical path from the battery to the speaker terminals. Every little bit counts.


DC into the amp AC out of the amp. While I agree that you want the best possible run from A to B to C but in the end your limited to what you can hear. Price/performance. Even if I were to run a 100% silver wire run from front battery to amp and all silver to speaker. I in many cases wouldn't be able to hear any difference in sound quality. Even if I hear a 10% increase in volume and quality of sound its not worth the $$$$$$$$$$$ spent on wire.


----------



## Hanatsu

Most amps are regulated, you will also have a headroom of ~2,5V or so with the car on. There will always be small voltage drops over long distances of wire, if you are using wire gauges according to the chart above then I'd say the voltage drop is negligible for all intents and purposes (SPL competitors excluded). I wouldn't think much of it tbh, it won't "lower your SQ" by some arbitrary number (how that now relates...).


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> This is why one needs to do the "big three" when installing a system. To eliminate as much resistance as possible.



The big three indeed helps. Unless you re-wire everything you can't fix all voltage drop


Your skirting

Is that 10% voltage loss at the amp going to result in a 10% loss of audio quality?


----------



## Beckerson1

Hanatsu said:


> Most amps are regulated, you will also have a headroom of ~2,5V or so with the car on. There will always be small voltage drops over long distances of wire, if you are using wire gauges according to the chart above then I'd say the voltage drop is negligible for all intents and purposes (SPL competitors excluded). I wouldn't think much of it tbh, it won't "lower your SQ" by some arbitrary number (how that now relates...).


This depends on the amp but usually the amp can function all the way down to 10-11V. You wouldn't get full rated power out of it but it will still function.


You wouldn't be able to turn the volume all the way up but you can still get decent SQ out of the system even at that lower voltage.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

Beckerson1 said:


> The big three indeed helps. Unless you re-wire everything you can't fix all voltage drop
> 
> 
> Your skirting
> 
> Is that 10% voltage loss at the amp going to result in a 10% loss of audio quality?


There is no way to come up with a figure. And the percentage would be installation specific. 

Some amps are regulated so that "in theory" there should be no loss of power. But in real installations, the output drops as the voltage drops.


----------



## gijoe

Why don't you install a cheap fuse and ****ty fuse holder, and measure the voltage at the amp? Then install a high end fuse holder and gold plated fuse and monitor the voltage at the amp. You won't see a difference.


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> There is no way to come up with a figure. And the percentage would be installation specific.
> 
> Some amps are regulated so that "in theory" there should be no loss of power. But in real installations, the output drops as the voltage drops.


"There is no way to come up with a figure."


Agree'd. 


So back to the topic.

All myth. It would be negligible. Placebo


----------



## gijoe

High Resolution Audio said:


> There is no way to come up with a figure. And the percentage would be installation specific.
> 
> Some amps are regulated so that "in theory" there should be no loss of power. But in real installations, the output drops as the voltage drops.


Even if the output drops, the sound quality doesn't. If the voltage is reduced, power is reduced, if power is reduced, SPL is reduced. The signal is still as pure as it would have been. The detail and clarity are all still there. We're talking about a theoretical voltage drop of millivolts, this will not be perceivable, and if it's significant enough to be perceivable, it will simply be a reduction in SPL, not accuracy of the signal.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

gijoe said:


> Even if the output drops, the sound quality doesn't. If the voltage is reduced, power is reduced, if power is reduced, SPL is reduced. The signal is still as pure as it would have been. The detail and clarity are all still there. We're talking about a theoretical voltage drop of millivolts, this will not be perceivable, and if it's significant enough to be perceivable, it will simply be a reduction in SPL, not accuracy of the signal.


I disagree. Some systems do not sound as good with low or medium power. That is why there is a test for it on the IASCA disc.


----------



## gijoe

High Resolution Audio said:


> I disagree. Some systems do not sound as good with low or medium power. That is why there is a test for it on the IASCA disc.


Does the IASCA disc have a track at -15dB, and one at -14.98dB, so you can compare how big of a difference a fuse makes?


----------



## Beckerson1

High Resolution Audio said:


> I disagree. Some systems do not sound as good with low or medium power. That is why there is a test for it on the IASCA disc.


We're assuming a ton of factors here other than the wire runs. Dynamics 

Doesn't mean the signal is any worse off. Just means the speakers, aiming, etc... are not optimized at that volume level.


----------



## claydo

High Resolution Audio said:


> This is why one needs to do the "big three" when installing a system. To eliminate as much resistance as possible.


"The big three".........lmao......everybody swears by this, and and I literally lol to myself everytime I see it mentioned. I have never done this in any of my many systems, and while I'm not an spl power junky, I have never, ever had any electrical problems that didn't stem from the battery......sorry, I know this is widely accepted as "duh, common knowledge" but I still don't believe it to be necessary......just my 2 cents.


----------



## High Resolution Audio

claydo said:


> "The big three".........lmao......everybody swears by this, and and I literally lol to myself everytime I see it mentioned. I have never done this in any of my many systems, and while I'm not an spl power junky, I have never, ever had any electrical problems that didn't stem from the battery......sorry, I know this is widely accepted as "duh, common knowledge" but I still don't believe it to be necessary......just my 2 cents.


With new efficient class D equipment, you may not need to do it. But it would depend on the factory wiring.


----------



## claydo

High Resolution Audio said:


> With new efficient class D equipment, you may not need to do it. But it would depend on the factory wiring.


I'm not a product of the class d generation.....lol. I've never even ran one, btw, not for any reason of essque or anything, I've just never owned one. My current system has three rather large a/b amps........no power problems.....ever....

Now batteries, different question, a good battery is a necessary upgrade.


----------



## danssoslow

High Resolution Audio said:


> I disagree. Some systems do not sound as good with low or medium power. That is why there is a test for it on the IASCA disc.


That's why all my amps's gains are set at eleven.


----------



## Beckerson1

claydo said:


> "The big three".........lmao......everybody swears by this, and and I literally lol to myself everytime I see it mentioned. I have never done this in any of my many systems, and while I'm not an spl power junky, I have never, ever had any electrical problems that didn't stem from the battery......sorry, I know this is widely accepted as "duh, common knowledge" but I still don't believe it to be necessary......just my 2 cents.


Depends on the vehicle and how the stock setup is. 

Doesn't mean in someone else's case it doesn't help. Plus in many case your hardly touching a potential power draw in the real world. Even when one may consider themselves going full out


----------



## claydo

Ok....maybe, I'd hate to list all the vehicles I've ran aftermarket gear in......but it runs the gamut of most 40 something audio nuts. It's never been necessary in anything I've ever owned......


And my current setup is probably the most powerful, and I kinda doubt the "specialness" of a cobalt electrical system.....

Anyways, hate to detract from the fuse arguement, lmao, so I won't derail anymore......


----------



## Beckerson1

claydo said:


> Ok....maybe, I'd hate to list all the vehicles I've ran aftermarket gear in......but it runs the gamut of most 40 something audio nuts. It's never been necessary in anything I've ever owned......
> 
> 
> And my current setup is probably the most powerful, and I kinda doubt the "specialness" of a cobalt electrical system.....


Once again in your case you just don't see a reason to do it. In my case it was simple to do anyway and cost hardly anything to do. Why not? Not like its going to hurt anything if you do do it. Assuming your not a idiot and cross the positive and negative. Which at that point I will just walk out the room lol


----------



## claydo

Ok....one more and I'll hush about it. The battery runs your electrical, the alternator recharges the battery. The wire between the alternator and battery is sized to carry the current produced by the alternator. If you don't upgrade the current production capabilities of your alternator, why does everyone upgrade the current capabilities of the wiring there........I've never heard anyone challenge this, just accept the practice so openly, and even give it a nickname....."the big three".

I know the reasoning given, to make the system that is there as efficient as posible.......by don't understand why it's blindly accepted and recommended so often. I'd rather recommend a better battery.....


----------



## Beckerson1

claydo said:


> Ok....one more and I'll hush about it. The battery runs your electrical, the alternator recharges the battery. The wire between the alternator and battery is sized to carry the current produced by the alternator. If you don't upgrade the current production capabilities of your alternator, why does everyone upgrade the current capabilities of the wiring there........I've never heard anyone challenge this, just accept the practice so openly, and even give it a nickname....."the big three".
> 
> I know the reasoning given, to make the system that is there as efficient as posible.......by don't understand why it's blindly accepted and recommended so often. I'd rather recommend a better battery.....



I'm not trying to be a dick by saying this but:

Battery supplies power to start car, once car is running alt takes over to power the vehicle while battery is essentially a buffer, alt in turn also charges battery 

As far as why one would upgrade that run. IDK its just accepted and main reason you stated. Could be the fact its cheap to do and there isn't a negative side effect of doing it. The battery should be upgraded to handle the extra current that is demanded. Like the alt, the battery is sized to crank the engine and provide power for the vehicle. Hence why it should be called Big 4 lol

Should the battery fail the vehicle is capable of running off the alt. Be it not the best, it still runs. I would know I had my negative pop off my battery this past summer.


----------



## claydo

Ok....as true as that may be, your alternator cannot run your stereo. The whole reason I snatch the stock battery out immediately when starting an install is I've killed two alternators due to weak batteries. Once during the summer, with the fan running ac wide open while jamming, on a brand new stock battery at that.......and once with stereo alone.......with a good battery, I've never had any problem whatsoever......put three runs of 0 gauge coming off of yer alternator, and it still produces the same current....right?


----------



## Beckerson1

claydo said:


> Ok....as true as that may be, your alternator cannot run your stereo. The whole reason I snatch the stock battery out immediately when starting an install is I've killed two alternators due to weak batteries. Once during the summer, with the fan running ac wide open while jamming, on a brand new stock battery at that.......and once with stereo alone.......with a good battery, I've never had any problem whatsoever......


Yep. The sensing refresh rate kills that. 

Hence why you need both.


----------



## claydo

Damn, I still can't believe beckerson is the lone defender of this practice.....maybe because it's a derail.....might deserve it's own thread....or maybe not.


----------



## sqnut

Wow, almost as good as the sq from amp thread.


----------



## Victor_inox

Alternator recharge battery, all current drawn from battery. pull alternator fuse with engine running and it will run for many hours without charging system resupplying. 
I drove 10 hours once with alternator belt broke, no light, no music, no air conditioning but I made it. 
What is argument is about again?


----------



## claydo

Eggzachary victor, alternators sole purpose is recharging the cars electrical supply (battery). I just didn't feel like arguing........but yes, a car will run off of the alternators charging voltage, but the alternator will not last long like this.....

But, in case someone wants to bring me up to speed on the necessity of "the big three" I started a thread to end my derailment of this fine piece here.....


----------



## Victor_inox

claydo said:


> Eggzachary victor, alternators sole purpose is recharging the cars electrical supply (battery). I just didn't feel like arguing........but yes, a car will run off of the alternators charging voltage, but the alternator will not last long like this.....
> 
> But, in case someone wants to bring me up to speed on the necessity of "the big three" I started a thread to end my derailment of this fine piece here.....


 big 3 not gonna hurt anything, so why not. Let them do it.


----------



## kyheng

Well, a fuse is still a fuse, it is meant to pop when **** happens.
Will a "high end" $100 fuse that cost $2 to manufacture sound more superior than a $1 fuse? Nope, that's why those "high end" manufacturers has to spend money on sponsoring audio competitions to twist this myth to a fact. 
What I need is a tube of silicone dielectric grease to ensure as low resistance as possible on the joints.


----------



## SkizeR

Gerald, just a few months ago you told me you didn't buy into that "wires effect sound quality bs"

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Alextaastrup

A fuse destroys sound completely - when blown


----------



## High Resolution Audio

SkizeR said:


> Gerald, just a few months ago you told me you didn't buy into that "wires effect sound quality bs"
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I was making reference to the mega expensive cables. Both speaker and interconnect. 

As opposed to cheap radio shack thin interconnects vs a decently priced set of good quality RCA's.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Anyone else here fuse in a minimalistic nature so it will pop faster if all hell breaks loose? I have a 100a fuse under the hood on some quality 4g wire I've had for about 10 years now in 3 different vehicles and a 50a fuse for 6g welding cable on each amp. In all my years of car audio I've only popped one fuse. The trunk monkey at Best Try used a 25a fuse under the hood on 8g wire going to my xplod amp that had 40a of onboard fusing AND he had the gain and boost maxed out. This was my first "system" when I didn't have a clue about anything. Probably won't make a difference in the real world but it makes me feel good knowing the fuse will pop that much quicker if it ever has to, but precautions taken makes the chance of blowing a fuse slim to none.


----------



## strakele

That's really the way it should be done, and I bet most people would be surprised to find out how little fusing they actually need since music is transient and fuses don't blow instantly.

Most 1/0 power wire kits come with like a 250a fuse. You could probably do a set of spot welds without it blowing.


----------



## SkizeR

strakele said:


> That's really the way it should be done, and I bet most people would be surprised to find out how little fusing they actually need since music is transient and fuses don't blow instantly.
> 
> Most 1/0 power wire kits come with like a 250a fuse. You could probably do a set of spot welds without it blowing.


yep. i have 200 amps of fusing on probably 400 amps worth of fusing on the amps


----------



## Victor_inox

when fuse in amp blows it`s usually sign of catastrophic failure, shorted output transistor,etc. sometimes it`s a sign of abuse(long clipping) but many newer amplifiers has protection for that. main run fusing only reason to have is to prevent fire. 
In that case I always use about half rating of amplifiers sum of fusing. As of yet haven`t blew a single one.


----------



## gstokes

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Anyone else here fuse in a minimalistic nature so it will pop faster if all hell breaks loose?


No, if all hell breaks loose it's going to pop no matter what, 100 amp at the battery and 100 amp at the amplifier..

By using a smaller fuse then needed you're heating the fuse and even though it doesn't pop the resistance is increased because of the heat and less current is able to flow through the conductor..


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

gstokes said:


> No, if all hell breaks loose it's going to pop no matter what, 100 amp at the battery and 100 amp at the amplifier..
> 
> By using a smaller fuse then needed you're heating the fuse and even though it doesn't pop the resistance is increased because of the heat and less current is able to flow through the conductor..


Think about what your amp is really pulling with real music at the threshold of clipping. As said above most people would be shocked at how much current their amp ISN'T pullingThe MAXI fuses I have now will probably be the same fuses in use 10 years from now and beyond. I know what my amps can do, and boy do they do a good job doing itI even have them sandbagged a little to protect me from myself.


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## danssoslow

gstokes said:


> No, if all hell breaks loose it's going to pop no matter what, 100 amp at the battery and 100 amp at the amplifier..
> 
> By using a smaller fuse then needed you're heating the fuse and even though it doesn't pop the resistance is increased because of the heat and less current is able to flow through the conductor..


A fuse is made to handle what it can handle. If you undersized the fuse, and it doesn't blow, then the circumstances under which it is used it just fine. If the fuse is heated to a point that it it can no longer allow the same current to pass to a given load, it is on the verge of blowing. 
Fuses are meant to work in a 75% continuous load (in an AC circuit, I'm assuming that the duty cycle will be the same for DC, I'll look into that). So for your scenario, let's say a 100 amp fuse is being used in a stereo that continually and constantly uses 90 amps. It will be running hotter than the manufacturer intended for continual use, surely; but over time, that fuse will fail. 
How long it will last, I cannot predict; but I'd have to say that if you used a 100 amp fuse in this situation, and it did not blow after months of use, then you are drawing much less than the projected 90 amps that created the above scenario.


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## Hillbilly SQ

I do have a question that isn't related to car audio but is still fuse related...and I don't think it's worth starting a thread about it anywhere.

I wired in a new main light switch for my flatbottom so I can flick the lights on and off with my toes while fishing at night. The one and only battery in use isn't connected to the aluminum hull in any way. The contacts of the switch touched the aluminum hull by accident as I was mounting the switch into its new home causing the 5a fuse on 14g wire to blow. My question is...how can a 12v circuit short out when there's no connection to the battery to complete the flow of current?


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## danssoslow

Have you checked continuity between the negative battery terminal and the hull? I want to believe you, in that the battery is isolated; but imagining the way simple 12v lighting can work (i'm picturing trailer lights here, I'm not a big 12v guy), it is common to use the chassis as a return path to ground. 
All it takes is 1 touch, somewhere. 12v grounding can be a fickle beast.


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## Hillbilly SQ

I'm going to check with my dmm next time I go outside. The trailer lights are grounded to the trailer frame and the trailer frame is connected to the 4-way plug, but the boat wasn't hooked to the truck when this happened. Now that I think about it, the trolling motor could have an unisolated ground. Who knows, it's only a couple years oldWait, I bet dollars to donuts it's the big motor touching the hull. The whole motor is a common ground by design.


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## danssoslow

I can understand that. I was referring to the way the lighting assemblies are manufactured. The grounds on a lot of 12v equipment isn't isolated from their chassis, since the chassis is typically a part of the return path.

If you have wired the boat to have an isolated ground, I think it would be easy to find the circuit that is touching the boat. Disconnect the battery, and tie your multimeter to the positive battery cable and the body of the boat while checking for continuity. Start pulling fuses and wait for the tone to cease.


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## Hillbilly SQ

I think I figured it out. And yes my trailer lights use the frame for the ground. And the 2-stroke on the transom uses a common ground for the starter and possibly everything else like in a vehicle and is touching the aluminum hull. I bet if I pull the ground for the big motor I lose the common ground in the hull itself. Just had to think it through


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## danssoslow

See, I didn't even think about the engine! 12v electricity is so interesting.


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## MANUTD

I'll have the fuses blessed by a priest at the temple...then sacrifice a small animal and not eat beef for a week...that should just about cover it.


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## Victor_inox

MANUTD said:


> I'll have the fuses blessed by a priest at the temple...then sacrifice a small animal and not eat beef for a week...that should just about cover it.


now you can start selling them for hefty profit .:laugh:


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