# Tendean17?s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Hi .. This is my second build for my family car, but first build log post in this forum. I’ve limited tools, skill, knowledge, experience and english ( sorry for that ) .. so please advise me if I’m wrong .. This weekend the Build and Install project kick off. I live in Indonesia and this is my car :

Nissan Grand Livina 2007 



















Dashboard ( Picture from Nissan )










Interior ( Picture from Nissan )


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Steps to make it more organized :

1. Objective and Background.
2. Blueprint and Layout.
3. Equipments.
4. Some Weapons and Bullets.
5. Previous Build.
6. Design and Prototyping.
- Dashboard
- Subwoofer
- Midbass
- Midrange + Tweeter
- Center Speaker
- Rear Speaker​7. Build and Install.
- Front High ( Midrange and Tweeter ).
- Front Low ( Midbass ).
- Center.
- Rear.
- Subwoofer.
- Head Unit.
- Power Amplifier and Processor.
- Build Passive xover for Midrange and Tweeter ( Front, Center and Rear ).
- Prepare for Calibration / Measurement.
- Acoustic Level matching using RTA all Front, Center, Subwoofer and Rear.
- Capture Frequency Response for xover point and avoid cancellation.
- Acoustic treatment to reduce reflections.
- Final Tuning in repetitive and iteration process from installation to final steps.​


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

*Objective and Background.*

At the first build (no log) I hear something missing in the sound and response .. I make a note .. find the answer and cause .. sometime find the answer .. sometime not .. many mistakes at installation I’ve done before but I hope not for this time. I’m not professional in this car audio industry, not for scoring my car audio too .. I do this just for my hobby.

My Objective is a car with good sound .. very simple.

I try minimizing modification. I’ll obey the law of acoustics & physics and take the compromise installation in a car audio. Sometimes I need something different for fun and experiment with refer to the success constantly from other member as my reference and knowledge base of science. I design this build several months ago and plan the build takes about 1 to 2 months .. do that at weekend and my spare time in home ( my wife, son and daughter know and understand very much that this is my hobby ) with help from my brother and sometime from my friend. 

I read some full build log and technical forum, every each gives me different ideas .. I know what work in their car not always work in my car .. what I see is not always what I get .. but .. give me a chance.

Highly’s build 2010 and 2011 .. Pionkej’s build .. AcuraTLSQ’s build .. Gary Summer’s build picture .. Bikinpunk’s various build and Klippel test .. MattR’s build .. Mic10’s various build .. BigRed’s build .. thehatedguy’s build .. Neil_J’s build .. CVJoint’s build .. and many others I can’t remember .. including all my friends in Indonesia .. they all gives me tons of ideas. 

Thanks everyone for share their knowledge .. Andy Wehmeyer, Lycan, Patrick Bateman and many others, so people like me can understand better about car audio. I follow thousands of their posts.

Oh .. although I know a little from their knowledge and experience .. it doesn’t always make me success in building car audio .. but I think it will be very helpful to know which will work for me or not and why. I read plenty post from this forum i found that even the expert had different theory and reason for their post and sometime contrary with each other. 

For my real world .. i heard some beautifull installation and big modification car audio .. sometimes the efford does not help and effect to the sound .. Now I understand clearly that before I have car audio, I should know at least how the speaker works, basic of installation and limitation .. if not, i’ll always blame the equipment and fall in the dark side. That’s why i think that i must find my own way just for me to have it constantly and consistently.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

*Blue Print and Layout.*


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

*Equipments.*

These equipments will be install in my car .. Maybe change during installation and tuning.



















Head Unit : Clarion HX-D2
Processor : JBL MS-8
Power : JL Audio HD900/5 
Power : JL Audio HD600/4
Midbass : Scanspeak 18W_4531G00
Midbass : Scanspeak 15W_4531G00
Midrange : Scanspeak 12M_4631G00
Tweeter : Tangband 25-1719S
Rear : Seas PW165 + Tweeter : Phass NT28BM
Rear : JBL GTO 528 Coaxial ( Midbass + Tweeter )
Subwoofer : JL Audio W6V2


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Some T/S Parameter and Frequency Response from Manufacture :

Scanspeak 18W_4531G00 T/S Parameter :
fs=33Hz ; Qms=5.2 ; Qes=0.38 ; Qts=0.35 ; D=138mm ; Sd=150cm2 ; Vas=41.9L ; [email protected]/1m ; Re=3.4 ohm ; Le=0.3mH ; Voice Coil=38mm ; Linear Excursion=6.5mm ; Max Excursion=11mm.










Scanspeak 15W_4531G00 T/S Parameter :
fs=40Hz ; Qms=4.6 ; Qes=0.34 ; Qts=0.32 ; D=110mm ; Sd=95cm2 ; Vas=15.8L ; [email protected]/1m ; Re=3.4 ohm ; Le=0.25mH ; Voice Coil=38mm ; Linear Excursion=6.5mm ; Max Excursion=9mm.










Scanspeak 12M_4631G00 T/S Parameter :
fs=75Hz ; Qms=5.57 ; Qes=0.35 ; Qts=0.33 ; D=79mm ; Sd=49cm2 ; Vas=2.3L ; [email protected]/1m ; Re=3.2ohm ; Le=0.22mH ; Voice Coil=38mm ; Linear Excursion=3mm ; Max Excursion=7mm.










Tangband 25-1719S T/S Parameter : 
fs=800Hz ; S[email protected]/1m ; Re=3ohm ; Le=0.002mH ; Voice Coil=25.4mm ; Freq.Response 800Hz-30kHz.










Seas PW165 T/S Parameter :
fs=53Hz ; Qms=2.47 ; Qes=0.5 ; Qts=0.41 ; Sd=136cm2 ; Vas=17L ; [email protected]/1m ; Voice Coil=39mm ; Linear Excursion=8mm

Scanspeak 10F-4424G00 T/S Parameter :
fs=90Hz ; Qms=3.2 ; Qes=0.32 ; Qts=0.29 ; D=68mm ; Sd=36cm2 ; Vas=2L ; [email protected]/1m ; Re=3.2ohm ; Le=0.1mH ; Voice Coil=20mm ; Linear Excursion=2.6mm ; Max Excursion=7mm.

JBL GTO 528 Coaxial T/S Parameter :
fs=92.1Hz ; Qms=6.38 ; Qes=1 ; Qts=0.87 ; Sd=86.6 m2 ; Vas=3.58L ; [email protected]/1m ; Freq.Response 65Hz-21kHz.

JL Audio W6V2 T/S Parameter :
fs=25Hz ; Qms=7.1 ; Qes=0.48 ; Qts=0.45 ; Sd=0.0502m2 ; Vas=79.9L ; [email protected]/1m ; Re=6.75ohm Series ; Max Excursion=16.5mm ; Recommended Sealed=1.25ft3 / 35.4L.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

*Some Weapons and Bullets.*

My notes for driver location and something relevant from peoples that much more experience and knowledge than me .. they help me so much for my next installation :

“Primary width cues are in the midrange. Primary stage width will be dictated by placement of whichever drivers are responsible for midrange frequencies. Ambient width can be augmented with treble placement. I've heard this called 'stage boundary' width …” Highly.

“… So YES, IMO the goal is always to get the speakers as far away and as wide as possible and away from as many direct reflecting surfaces as possible … Use all the TA you want, you will not increase width…” Mic10is.

“At a minimum-keep all drivers especially mid and tweet on the same vertical plane. moving them off that same plane will cause some imaging issues, especially in the depth department. So having something like a Mid in a kick panel and then doing tweet in a Sail or door panel can cause some serious issues bc the tweet is just too physically close to the listener-no amount of TA will compensate for it.” Mic10is.

“Depth is one of THE most confused and misused terminology in car audio and in many instances its often one of the most misjudged areas in competition. Depth is the distance from the front of the stage to the rear of the stage. It is NOT how far away the stage is in relation to the listener .. I would not separate speakers if its avoidable. Multiple locations leads to multiple problems especially above 200hz or so. Depth in home audio refers to the ability to hear beyond the speaker location and not hearing the speakers.” Mic10is.

“I wouldn't worry about depth when discussing tweeters. To me, that's one of the easiest things to line up given it's driven primarily by levels. Especially when crossing higher. I'm not saying phase doesn't matter, but it's less important than the location of a midrange given wavelength. Once you get your tune right, a lot of the stage aspects of the audio system will fall in to place. You just have to focus on getting your left side and right side response to match up.” Bikinpunk.

“… Simply stick the speakers in a corner. The way that this works is that the car itself acts like a waveguide. We're not getting away from destructive interference, we're just sticking the speakers so far in a corner, the effect is less audible…” Patrick Bateman.

“… with the speakers very very close to the corners it 'pushes up' the frequency where comb filtering will begin. Once you figure out that frequency, you'd have to make a choice and either live with the comb filtering that will occur above that frequency, or filter it out and reduce the bandwidth of the driver …” Patrick Bateman.

“… On the other hand, listening off axis *does* reduce the audibility of that 3rd harmonic distortion, because it attenuates the driver mechanically not electronically … This is why low distortion speakers sound so much better.
” Patrick Bateman.

“… Midbass is not very critical for stage width or height, but is essential for depth. Also, if the path length difference is too large, say over 6 inches for the midbass range from 100 to 400 Hz, the imaging will be shifted to the close side …” Mark Eldridge.

“… Tweeters mounted only in the pillars... I'd put them next to the mids, maybe mounted just above, or in front of them, or where ever you get the best staging properties. Mounting them so far away from the mid up in the pillar can cause problems with creating a coherent wave front, and possibly comb filtering. The results can be phase related problems causing depth, height, and imaging problems … ” Mark Eldridge.

“… Based on real world physics of sound. If your tweeters are not arriving at the same time your mids are you will have comb filtering through the crossover region and your soundstage will not be correct … ” Gary Summers.
“... If you are able to build a system in your car where all the speaker drivers output arrive at the listener's ear at the same exact time, then you don't need TA …” Gary Summers.
“… These are the main reasons why "aiming" tweets in car may very well lead to surprising (or at least, non-obvious) results. It may be that aiming somewhat centrally to minimize reflective intensity ... in other words, aiming so that the PHANTOMS are as OFF-AXIS as possible ... may ALSO result in acceptable attenuation for each near-side listener. Hence, my comment about dome-light aiming. When you consider reflections, you may ponder this question : Do you want your main tweeters MORE on-axis, or would you rather have the phantoms MORE off-axis? Bottom line : "on-axis" tweeters might make sense in a larger, less reflective environment for more centrally-seated listeners. But don't try to force-fit home-audio thinking where it just doesn't apply.” Lycan.

“… The frequency at which the first comb null appears will depend on : the time delay between primary source and reflection (or between primary source and image). The depth of the first comb null will depend on : the magnitude of the reflection (or image) compared to the primary source. If the magnitudes are identical, the null will be infinitely deep (perfect cancellation). If the magnitude of the reflection is only half of the primary, the null will only be 6dB deep. Never a really good idea to try to EQ nulls .” Lycan.

“Using reflections to create a "larger than life" soundstage is a dicey proposition. The naturally wide stage that basic stereo is capable of achieving does not "depend" on reflections to achieve it; and, consequently, we often find in small, reflective environments that taking steps to reduce reflections will actually widen the stage ... “ Lycan.

“In summary : below 200Hz, aiming doesn't matter. At higher frequencies where the driver starts to BEAM, aiming starts to matter. So the only answer to the question : does it matter how I aim my 6" drivers? is this : what frequency range are they playing? If limited to 200Hz and below, the answer is no : it does not matter how they are aimed. If playing well into the midrange AS WELL AS THE MIDBASS, then the answer is yes : the midrange "part" of what they are playing WILL be impacted by how they are aimed.” Lycan.

“Big difference between a concert hall and car: size of the acoustic space! And it's NOT just a relative difference ... there's a real, tangible threshold involved, as defined by the Haas Effect. In a car, there's a real good chance that the natural reflections will not exceed the precedence effect (about 20msec, if memory serves) ... meaning that natural reflections will only tend to smear and confuse the front stage. In a concert hall, there's a real good chance that the natural reflections will exceed the precedence threshold. So if you delay the rear fill by ~20msec or slightly more, you can create an apparent acoustic space that is much larger ... without confusing or ruining the front stage. This is a good thing Yes, we face the orchestra in a concert hall ... a classic argument against dumb rear fill ... but we also sense that the concert hall is bigger than about 25 cubic feet ... a very good argument in favor of smart rear fill ” Lycan.

“... but the real reason not to operate a speaker near its resonance is because that's where it produces the most distortion and at multiples of resonance. That distortion cannot be filtered electrically (yet), and it's high-frequency content that makes localizing the speaker easier. Couple that with all the turbulent air movement when the cone has to move a long way and it's a recipe for winning the "Where's Waldo" game. Seriously, minimize the excursion and the system will get well fast.” Andy Wehmeyer.

“... When there are two sources for a sound that are identical in frequency and time, we hear a phantom source in between. That's why we hear a center image in a stereo system. If we have a speaker and a reflection that have the same frequency response, we'll hear a phantom image inbetween. If the frequency reponse of the reflection is NOT the same, then the image will be placed differently for sounds at different frequencies. If 1kHz is louder in the reflection, 1kHz will image closer to the reflecting surface. At the frequency where the speaker and the reflection are out of phase, we'll hear two images (or no image, depending on your perspective). This causes images to wander around.” Andy Wehmeyer.

“... Putting a center channel in the top of the dash is a little different. We hope for the best in terms of the big suckout from the combination of the direct and reflected sound from the windsheild and we use the windsheild to provide a phantom image that's a little higher than the location of the speaker in the dash. This works great, but it does provide some image spread for the center because the sound of the center speaker will reflect off the WHOLE windshield and the door glass.” Andy Wehmeyer.

“… Here's the deal. Everyone explains time alignment as a way to "move the nearest speaker so it sounds like it's farther away". That's BS and it's a lazy explanation. There is a way to "move speakers electronically", but it isn't simple time alignment. Using time alignment won't make your stage wider or make sounds that come only from the nearest speaker sound like they come from a source located farther away …” Andy Wehmeyer.

“… In cars, we hear all of the reflections and the initial sound as one event - that means we hear the speaker's power response, which is the average of the frequency response at all angles. If we use the speaker above all the way up to 12k, we'll have a big fat hole in the off-axis response where the high frequencies contain far less reflected sound. If we aim the speaker so that our ears get the high frequency sound the on-axis response will have wide bandwidth, but the reflected sound will lack high frequencies. When we tune the car using an EQ, we'll want to boost the high frequencies to smooth the response, but that'll make the on-axis response too bright. It's much easier to make the car sound good if we can make the reflected sound as similar in frequency response to the initial sound. Then, when we EQ, we'll have smoother coverage over a wider listening window.” Andy Wehmeyer.

“I have many more .. but still a few that I understand clearly ...“ Tendean17 .


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## ek9cv5 (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Nice keep up the work


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

*Previous Build.*

My previous build using midrange and tweeter in pillar with midbass in the door using manual processor .. After installed the JBL MS-8, add a center channel on top dash, rear channel in the back, single subwoofer in the left corner .. it’s work and good for me at single seat but for dual seat I hear something missing and I think path length different from midbass in the door and midrange + tweeter in the pillar only for single seat. Since I’ve installed the center channel so I want to take advantage from that.

I capture the response using ARTA and True RTA both tools the same result .. my driver side midbass in the door had a deep hole about 80Hz .. I think because of cancellation and gone when i move the mic at passenger side. Both side midrange and tweeter in pillar had a hole about 800Hz at driver side .. I think because of reflection from side glass. I hope for next build the Inverse square law works and i can get out that outside the pass band .. > 800 Hz are smooth frequency response. 

Here’re some pictures from my previous build :

My Previous Center Speaker










My Previous Midbass










My Previous Midrange and Tweeter










My Previous Processor and Power


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I wish I was this organized! Good job. Did you do the first build? Because your limited skills, tools, etc. seems to have gotten very professional results. LOL

Nice job.

Jay


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

subd... this is very interesting and a unique build thread. Best to you! 
I really the amount of time and thought you have put into it.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



JayinMI said:


> I wish I was this organized! Good job. Did you do the first build? Because your limited skills, tools, etc. seems to have gotten very professional results. LOL Nice job. Jay


Not really good actually .. seriously I just use a jigsaw, angle grinder, electric drill, hammer, home tools, sand paper, some MDF board and resin to make it. Finishing with car autobody filler then using vinyl for seat covers .. i even don't know exactly the name in english ..  .. And i always do a little of perfection, precision and accurate in some area very detail and i never satisfied and trust other people do that for me .. in case someone do what i can't do .. it must under my quality inspection. 2 years ago my installer gave up .. there's no benefit to have a client like me. 

This a proof it's not really good actually .. sorry i remove the picture bc not relevant.



sydmonster said:


> subd... this is very interesting and a unique build thread. Best to you! I really the amount of time and thought you have put into it.


Thanks and wish me luck.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

*Design and Prototyping *

For preparing next build I try many angle and location using temporary box for front midrange only, no lowpass and without midbass, to find at least a good center image with the help of my brother sitting in passenger side for dual listening position, all using ear with IASCA disc 7 drums and 3 people speaking from left, center and right side ( don’t know the title ) .. no perfect result for the response because no EQ but I found the level is almost the same, at least I know the best location and angle for me .. after all new installation done and come to tuning session, i'll using RTA to finalize that .. just to prepare my next driver location .. make a note and documentation .. now i feel confident and ready to start this build. 

In the next build I’ll start with some basic install because I believe that if the basic is wrong than everything in the final result will fail and make finding a more difficult problem to solve. If the basic is right than I can improve every point step by step .. so I know the improvement work better or not, there will be iteration process here. In this build I’ll consider every inch in driver placement, providing enough power for all speakers, preparing a system that handles more headroom for better dynamic at normal listening volume .. all parameter of the best I can do and try to help MS-8 do it’s best. 

I read on this forum .. some success with the MS-8 .. some people do not. But I am happy with it, MS-8 can not fix the wrong system installation but it will make and help some system sound better. I can try many configuration and hear the result from a few minutes. If I have the right installation then it will take the benefit from MS-8 with Logic7 very much .. that’s from me. 

MS-8 configuration in one screen to make easy .. it’s free


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I will install the midbass and midrange at the corner side of my car as wide and forward as possible and minimize PLD .. oh .. and it’s not only minimize PLD but it will make different wave length, amplitude, phase and reflections to listening position with the same Path Length Different. Tweeter near the midrange, I wish that I can put them in the same start knee peak impulse response relative to the midrange .. so time delay is minimize and also the phase shift at xover area for direct wave but still not for reflection wave. 

Implementing real center channel other than try to find phantom center imaging. Use the biggest center speaker that fit in the dash .. so front left and right just play what in the left and right information only and some mono information ( mostly vocal range ) that reduce about -6db each side. I think the mono information will be solid in the center and If the center image is too center then i know what to do. I’ve a little experience with center speaker location and I’ll try to realize that. Adding rear channel for sense of space with signal steering .. Single subwoofer with sealed box .. Power and Processor below the seat .. etc. 

That’s my ideas in the next build. Nothing fancy .. everything will looks simple .. I just wanna good sound. 

Next .. I try to explain everything detail about my design inside my head tomorrow .. so everyone read this build know why i plan to do this and do that .. and the important point is .. if I make wrong direction maybe someone can suggest and correct me. Now it is midnight here.


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Sub'ed


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

Sub'd. Good luck!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

That's an awesome collection of useful posts you have there, and a very impressive equipment list. Good luck with your build!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Great info and nice equipment. Sub'd


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Design and Prototyping -> Dashboard_

Without big modification of my original dashboard .. I can pull the 3/4 top from the dashboard so I can put midrange + tweeter and center speaker flush mount below the dash ( virtually ) like Highly's Build 2011 .. but I’m still using sealed box for that .. not IB to outside the firewall. I plan to put midrange + tweeter in the corner where firewall and side car meet each other and hope getting wide staging from that location. 

I think using this location ( open flush mount ) help “reduce” 1 of first reflection problem from the DASH for high frequencies ( about >= 1700Hz @ +– 20Cm ). Oh and I hope it’s not only 1 of reflection but I think effects multiple reflection from the presence of other reflection. I can add some absorber and acoustic foam as many as possible below the virtual dash and near around the speakers and at some point above tweeter. Don’t call it BS .. give me a chance and let’s measurement peak and dip tells. 

I can’t describe clearly about it and these pictures are what I try to tell about the dash.

Top of the dash. 



















Dashboard open on top.


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## BakedCookies (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

This is well organized with very useful information, I look forward to watching this build.


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## Mopar244DIY (Dec 1, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Lovin this build already! Look at the room under that factory dash cover! I am jealous ! Sub'd !


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Design and Prototyping -> Subwoofer_

I plan to use JL Audio W6V2.. Single subwoofer 12 Inch .. make the solid and rigid sealed box as I can .. using ¾” 19mm MDF with several layer of fiberglass mat and resin. Location is on the back car ( single cabin ) .. the driver in the middle box with up firing .. nothing special. As spec recommended volume is 1.25 ft3 in sealed box to get about QTC 0.7 I think. 

I can experiment using ported box so the sensitivity will up about 3dB .. but not for this time. I’ll hear the result using sealed box first and hope this new location works with my cabin gain to get upfront bass. 

Spare tire - original










Floor damping from previous build










Recommended Power from manufacture


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Design and Prototyping -> Midbass_

I plan to use Scanspeak Revelator 18W_4531G00 midbass .. This 7 inch midbass is not roll off at 80Hz ( I prepare a manufacture freq. response in anechoic chamber above ) and i really like this driver impact at moving mass and of course together with midrange frequency .. If I choose a midbass that start roll off at 120Hz and about < -3dB at 80Hz so I will not highpass at <= 80Hz at any slope for that. I’ll move the midbass to corner kick panel as far away as possible to reduce the resonance frequency from door rattle, hope reduce comb filtering maybe and see if the hole still exist or not after my new system is up and take measurement again and the most important is minimize Path Length Different. 

The difficulty to me is my car has right steer ( right driver side ) so the gas pedal is in the right side close to the right kick panel area, cause I think it still possible to put there safety .. the midbass in the kick panel is in the corner firewall and side body. I know when speaker is lowpass below beaming point than no need to angle that but 2nd 3rd etc harmonic distortion should be consider too. I learned from Patrick and Andy when the bass note hit 80Hz then 2nd harmonic = 160Hz then 3rd harmonic = 240Hz etc and this can’t fix electronically because they all come from inside speaker it self and it can reduce the distortion mechanically, thats why i choose very low distortion driver for my equipment ( base from some review from zaph audio, this forum etc. ). If I highpass this midbass at 80Hz so it about >1 octave above FS ( 33Hz ) away from the most distortion point .. this is a good start. My angle base on size of midbass and safety from gas pedal.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

There’s hole in the body near kick panel area .. size is about 70 to 80 Cm2 ( Sd parameter of my midbass refer to the T/S Parameter is 152 Cm2 so 1/2 Sd is about 75 Cm2 ) .. I’ll use this to make my midbass breathe vent to car rail body .. or Aperiodic installation maybe .. Not much option I can do with midbass location and let’s see what I can do later. 

Kick panel left location










Kick panel right location










Kick panel right location with midbass ( Left side is the same )


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Design and Prototyping -> Midrange + Tweeter_

I plan to use Scanspeak Revelator 12M_4631G00 midrange with Tangband 25-1719S tweeter in a box to avoid backwave from frontwave. My build first priority is to minimize PLD ( VC to VC ) as far and wide as possible that’s mean in the corner of my firewall ( Patrick Bateman recommend that .. see his comment above ) .. I hope that I can put tweeter, midrange and midbass almost the same distance to listening position in the same side .. so minimize time delay between them. 

I know we use ILD to high frequency and not easy to hear phase error in very high freq at xover point. I really want to put tweeter + midrange in almost the same distance. It will make me easy to build passive xover base on acoustic response ( relative phase ) between them with level match attenuator the best I can do .. since I plan to use MS-8 full channel so no lowpass for midrange and no T.A for tweeter .. purely depend on Intensity Level Difference at EQ works. 

I hate speaker break up that cause sybilance in some song and this midrange and the other revelator series is designed to avoid that .. see the frequency response from this manufacture spec .. we can lowpass before break up but again i think 2nd 3rd etc harmonic and slope step degree from my passive xover will still have many information a few db above lowpass .. Scanspeak Revelator series are low distortion driver .. that's what i know about.

I still have Scanspeak Ring Radiator R7000 so Midbass, Midrange and Tweeter will be like EKTA Grande driver in my car .. but the tweeter is big and I wanna play a little off axis .. I’ll keep them for my home speaker. If you go to Scanspeak web site the three of my speakers are still use for their mascot. 

Tangband tweeter still possible to change to other driver if I can’t handle that. Their off axis is very flat cause of the lens and too high the off axis roll off base on the spec .. but if ILD really works it will be nice tweeter and easy installation. I use 3 way front so I can cut the passive xover a little high for this tweeter. I can put the tweeter half hidden too and let’s hear the result later. Tweeter location is easily to workaround in different location maybe at side of midrange, on top, a little up etc.

My midrange location is big enough to put Scanspeak 18W without modification .. but it’s not my design in this new build. Midrange and tweeter will pointing a little parallel to windshield, location and angle refered to my trial base on midrange only above. Some day I can buy another Scanspeak 15W to change the 12M to handle midrange lowest, minimize excursion and more power handling with still more a little on axis .. modify the dashboard .. make a hole in firewall .. bigger power etc, but for this build I stick with 12M with a little dash modification as is.

Location for my midrange + tweeter (Red) and a little cut (Yellow)

Front high left location










Front high right location










Front high right location with midbass ( Left side is the same )


----------



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Design and Prototyping -> Center Speaker_

I plan to use another Scanspeak Revelator 15W-4531G00 midbass with Tangband 25-1719S tweeter in a sealed box to avoid backwave from frontwave which cancel each other .. The midbass is 5.5 inch .. because > 5.5 inch is not enough space without big modification from my dash. This time I plan to flush mount in open dashboard ( not like my previous center speaker – on top of dash ) and as low mount as possible. Since I plan to use MS-8 full channel so no lowpass for center midbass and no T.A for tweeter .. purely depend on level at EQ works. I still think that putting the speaker in open dash like this will be different from flush mount into the dash or put above the dash .. adding some thick acoustic foam etc will be effect the final result.

Base on the spec, this midbass only roll off about 1 or 2 db at 80Hz without box ( with a box rise the Q at low as far as I know ) so i think it will work for my xover point at about 80Hz. I choose 5.5” midbass because the dispersion start to narrow is a little higher too, I know it’s related to diameter. Center midbass will pointing to windshield and a little up parallel to windshield and the tweeter maybe in front of midbass in a hole from the dash and pointing up to windshield also.

About tweeter .. I think about 2500-3500Hz the wavelength is about 10-14Cm so I will concern around 10-14Cm from the tweeter for first reflection from baffle .. add some accoustic treatment maybe .. half hidden that etc .. cause it’s possible in my build, so my limited knowledge think that below beaming where the dispersion is wide .. it will only reflect to all the windshield and a little from dash / baffle and when it comes to side glass will be weak because it’s far away. Midbass is a little different .. it will reflect off the whole windshield, dashboard and the door glass .. I think MS-8 will take care of this bc out of phase will steer to the rear channel. 

Tweeter still possible to change to other driver if I can’t handle that. Their off axis is very flat cause of the lens and too high the off axis roll off base on the spec .. I don’t know it’s good news or make the tweeter too dominan, also that the sensitivity is greater than my midbass .. This will be my concern when building passive for them .. level matching between them by adding attenuator etc. Seriously .. I’m still confuse to build a full passive between midbass and tweeter or just let the midbass highpass roll off naturally and add a good nonpolar capacitor with Lpad attenuator to tweeter for level matching. It will effect the calibration process too.

At the xover point between midbass where dispersion start to narrow and tweeter still in wide dispersion .. I read about this good explanation about center speaker : “… The center is a similar dual-2-ohm 6" and a tweeter and it's mounted in the top of the dash. Is the 2-way optimum in terms of directivity ? No, but having a 6" in the dash to center the midbass and dealing with the hole between the 6" and the tweeter off axis is the right compromise.” Andy Wehmeyer.

Choose center midbass / midrange as big as possible and the more I think it make sense because if my center channel can go as low as the midbass front channel then no need for MS-8 to steer the gap from low frequency center channel to right and left midbass.

Location for my center (Red) and a little cut (Yellow)

Center location in the dash.



















Center location with midbass a little on axis with parallel to windshield.


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wow, that's alot of open space in the dash. Made me think of MattR's Nissan Murano that he built the enclosures for 8" full ranges in the dash.

Jay


----------



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

My experience from my last build using MS-8 ( 1st picture) using top mounting above dashboard for center speaker like my previous build sometimes the center image a little move to passenger side and a little efford trial to run calibration ( my little daughter complain she can’t see the street view bc she likes to sit in the middle of the back seat also ). I think that center speaker should be forward and near windshield as possible .. If we look at the 2nd picture compare to 1st picture below .. It seems 2nd picture is more balance angle from the left, right and the center speaker .. I choose 2nd picture and think it will be better in the vocal range for dual listening position for my next build. 

Center speaker location.


----------



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Design and Prototyping -> Rear Speaker_

I plan to use SEAS PW165 and a Phass NT28BM ( front door rear speaker ) from my previous build and parallel with JBL GTO 528 ( back door rear speaker ) .. My door location will use for rear fill in the front like PionKej’s plan parallel with back door speaker ( in factory location ) and tweeter location is not determine. I have a pair of fullrange Scanspeak 10F too .. let me think later which combination will use. 

Out of phase will steer to this speaker .. so i'm not too worry about PLD and time / phase problem. Rear channel recommendation should highpass > 100 Hz .. no bass here. This rear fill is one off Logic7 benefit for wider the stage and add sense of space in small, reflective environment which is call "Car". 

I’m happy with implementing the rear channel from my previous installation. It really work of course depend on the song played and how many out of phase information in the song .. if I play some live recording music it’s really amazing .. Jazz in the city for example .. I never heard before many people in the bar applause and screaming like that .. I really want to learn and experiment with something different to put rear speaker .. 

Door installation from my previous build










Midbass without speaker










Midbass with speaker


----------



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



JayinMI said:


> Wow, that's alot of open space in the dash. Made me think of MattR's Nissan Murano that he built the enclosures for 8" full ranges in the dash. Jay


That’s all my ideas in the next build .. Thanks for reading. 

In few days I’ll start the building. Entering this phase .. I think it will be a repetitive and iterative process. For efficiency of time, finding more ideas, posting to forum, problem solving etc .. So the order of installation and building will vary. 

Please .. don't judge a book by it's cover.

Coming soon.


----------



## nittanylion64 (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

PLEASE get this guy some tools, so he can do some decent work......  Wow, you do some great work. Good luck with this build!


----------



## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

ahh yes, another installer who makes me feel like I might as well use bubble gum and electrical tape.


----------



## req (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

seems crazy complicated, but looks way cool and organized.

ill be keeping tabs on your build sir. it looks promising


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Really good planning for the center channel!


----------



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Midrange + Tweeter ( Front High )_

Since i’ll use MS-8 with center channel and front mode ( dual listening position ) so no Time Alignment for Left and Right will be set by MS-8, but the TA still set between Front High ( midrange ) and Front Low ( midbass ) on each side will be .. that’s why PLD between right and left is matter to my system. 

I start with this for tweeter location and if I want to change the location of the tweeter then I can close the hole easily with the mdf. Voice coil estimation between midrange and tweeter is almost similar using simple meter measurement. PLD between left and right midrange to my nose about 20 - 24Cm. I wish i can make Impulse Response to know more accurate PLD, but MS-8 will take care of this.

My tweeter using close chamber in the back so I can separate and put in different location easily .. maybe the front of midrange, above midrange in the corner, sail panel, etc. 

Craft and build quality is not that great but I preferred rigid and does not leak.
The difficulty in making the box is made box that can be pull and plug again.
The box volume is about 1 to 1.5 liter. 

OK .. amateur’s build starts. 

Small pieces of the dash to make easier in building the box for Midrange, Tweeter and Center.



















Preparing for resin and fiberglass



















Making the box .. I prefer the flat side using MDF because it is thicker than the resin and mat.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

MDF Ring for midrange and tweeter using jigsaw. 










Angling the ring base on my previous test.










Wrap the box with grille cloth










Add about 4 layers of resin and mat










Semifinished Box










Add autofiller



















Add mixed resin and powder to make more rigid and avoid leakage.


----------



## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Add black vinyl



















Test using speakers



















That’s it .. for my front high .. next is center speaker .. and thanks for reading.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

VERY impressive start! 

2c suggestion - get plenty of (pref acoustic style) foam around those pods and all nearby solid surfaces.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wow, amazing build log and stellar DIY craftmanship. Must auditioned someday! Keep up the great works Bro!

Best regards

Wendo


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## metalball (Sep 8, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Great forethought and planning! Can't wait to see what happens next.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Thanks for reading my build guys .. I really appreciate that. 
Makes me more enthusiastic to this build. 



asawendo said:


> Wow, amazing build log and stellar DIY craftmanship. Must auditioned someday! Keep up the great works Bro!
> Best regards Wendo





metalball said:


> Great forethought and planning! Can't wait to see what happens next.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



sydmonster said:


> VERY impressive start!
> 2c suggestion - get plenty of (pref acoustic style) foam around those pods and all nearby solid surfaces.


Thanks .. that’s my plan too.

I’ll add some absorbers material around the pods and the whole hole in the dash. Thickness is about 3 Inch ( 7.5Cm ) so approximately 1/4-wavelength will be effective to about 1000Hz and up. Width of the dash hole is about 10 – 12 Inch ( 25 - 30Cm randomly ) so one wavelength is about 1150 – 1350Hz. I don’t have absorption coefficient from the material to accurate calculation. The absorbers will usefull to reduce 1st reflection from the dash and multiple reflection from the windshield and side at some frequency .. they will absorb and convert the sound energy to heat at about 1500Hz and up .. I hope it works .. 

As my understanding that in car we can’t separate direct and reflection sound and we hear both as power response .. because reflection happened very fast and it will look like just frequency response anomaly. I just wanna implement the knowledge that i got from this forum into my car from all of you guys.

I'll use acoustic polyurethane foam ( egg shape ) still on the way .. and other material for the dash and inside the box.





































...

My Center pod was done right now .. i'll prepare to upload picture soon.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Great! And yes, your notes are generally pretty much on point. The issus with reflections is that they can be in and out of phase and sometimes anything in between, so cancelation, nulls and peaks are common but also can smear the staging and focus, and the overall frequency responce. However, the more we can control or minimise, the less likely they will "colour" the sound. Sometimes they can even be used to an advantage. The problem lies in that every car is different and also there are ever changing factors, such a product age, cabin temp, number of people in the car... all change these variants. 

Great build!! Keep it up.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Center _

To improve my knowledge .. I read Floyd E.Toole’s book Sound Reproduction many times, some of them I can understand clearly but not for all the topics .. I really want to install multichannel in car audio system using real center channel other than try to find phantom image between 2 stereo speaker because each side got their freq and phase problem from reflections in car .. I know .. I know i’d limited skill too. I prefer the believability sound rather than accuracy .. oh .. and of course i want to have both .. , seriously i don’t know where is the accuracy point after the voice is recorded to disc. 

OK .. The box volume is about 4 to 5 liter sealed. Midbass is a little paralel with windshield. Craft is not that great but I preferred rigid and does not leak. The difficulty in making the box is made a center box that can be pull and plug again easily. 

Building a box for center speaker










Make a hole in the back and front of the box and test for midbass placement










Baffle on top using MDF and test for tweeter placement










Make a ring from MDF










Add the ring to the box


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wow those pods came out great! Can't wait to see how your center channel came out.


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## Danny Adams (Mar 1, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wicked!
:beerchug:


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

This is great work and gear. Looking forward to the full install, the other install looked great also. I really know what you mean about these great folks around here giving positive feed back and how it helps fuel your modivation. It sure has helped me!

Keep up the great work. Stop by my thread sometime would really like your feedback as well as any tips. 

Cheers,
Scott


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## Leonaudio (Jul 28, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Nice posts


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Thanks guys .. 

Fixed angle and location for center speaker with cheap car autobody filler




























Add milkshake using resin and powder to make more rigid and avoid leakage.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

very nice!


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## S.U.4ever (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

crazy equipments + unbeliveable knowlege = one hell of an install.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Add black vinyl










Finished center channel box.














































That's it for my center box .. Thanks for reading


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

wow .. ! it seems many members from Indonesia here.


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## bigguy2010 (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> wow .. ! it seems many members from Indonesia here.


I think you need a few more drivers hahaha :laugh:


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Tipping my hat to this build. Add me to the list of those following your thread. Keep it up.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



bigguy2010 said:


> I think you need a few more drivers hahaha :laugh:


 



unemployedconsumer said:


> Tipping my hat to this build. Add me to the list of those following your thread. Keep it up.


Thanks guys ..


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Front Low ( Midbass )_

Kick Panel .. There’s hole in the body near kick panel area .. I’ll use this to make my midbass breathe vent to car body. If the result is not good, I can put something like resistive material there. I think as long as the backwave isolated from the frontwave and will highpass the midbass so it should be ok using something infinite baffle like this. 

The difficulty to me is my car has right steer ( right driver side ) so the gas pedal is in the right side close to the right kick panel area so this is my priority to put there safety .. or maybe I’ll modify the gas pedal a little. My kick panel consists of two separate parts and will be join together .. box and cover.

Preparing for resin .. mold from original cover










Fiberglassing about 3 layers of resin and mat










Testing the cover in kick panel .. left is the same.










Finished cover for kick panel.


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## Z-Roc (Mar 22, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

that's awesome 17speaker system, I am about to have 15speakers in my 
300zx


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Preparing for resin to make kick panel box.










The back of the box.










Make a ring from MDF










Add the ring to the box and wrap with grille










Fiberglassing about 4 layers of resin and mat










Semi finished box


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Join the box and it’s cover using hot glue and filler. Kickpanel box will screw tight to the firewall.










Adding autobody filler and sanding



















Front and back










Add milkshake using resin and powder and testing.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I spent 4 days to make it with the support from my 12th years son and a friend in the backyard .. we are all amateurs in diy . The kick wrap with vinyl using the same color as possible to doortrim. I replace the vinyl to 3 times until the results are pretty good, so it will not make me shame in the pictures .

Right side kick panel 



















Left side kick panel



















Both side kick panel .. and finished.




























That's it .. and thanks for reading .


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

WOW!!!  you know we like this


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



sydmonster said:


> WOW!!!  you know we like this


Syd .. ever come to Indonesia .. BALI ? .. we have thousand of islands here .. .

My egg foam for dashboard just arrives today.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



bigguy2010 said:


> I think you need a few more drivers hahaha :laugh:


 .. Next rebuild maybe .. more subwoofer in the back. 

Update : I change the vinyl at doortrim midbass for my rear speaker with the same material from kick panel. it looks like midbass array .. side by side with kick panel and i'll post the picture soon.

I've started to build the subwoofer box .. i speed up this project.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> Syd .. ever come to Indonesia .. BALI ? .. we have thousand of islands here .. .


I haven't, but many people I know have. I know Indo is beautifull!! You have many natural wonders!!


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Really nice,hands and fingers probably hurt after all that sanding,can't. Wait to see it finished.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

OMG! Very nice. I have trouble getting 2 mids 2 tweets and a sub to sync up.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Thanks guys 



sydmonster said:


> I haven't, but many people I know have. I know Indo is beautifull!! You have many natural wonders!!





jpeezy said:


> Really nice,hands and fingers probably hurt after all that sanding,can't. Wait to see it finished.





Spyke said:


> OMG! Very nice. I have trouble getting 2 mids 2 tweets and a sub to sync up.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Subwoofer_

As I planned before .. Single subwoofer 12 Inch .. make the solid and rigid sealed box as I can .. using ¾” 19mm MDF with several layer of fiberglass mat and resin. Location is on the back car ( single cabin ) .. the driver in the middle box with up firing .. nothing special. As spec recommended volume is about 1.25 ft3 in sealed box to get about QTC 0.7 I think. 

Preparing for resin .. molded from original spare tire location in the back.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

It's very heavy to lift for one man ..  .. I call my friend to help me build this box in the backyard .. 

ok .. Add baffle on top for subwoofer.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I tried to take pictures in daylight so it will be clear when seen by the reader.

I'll prepare next picture .. choose the best from my camera .. resize the pictures to make small bandwidth needed for some slow connection internet and save the quota if limited.

Enjoy


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> I spent 4 days to make it with the support from my 12th years son and a friend in the backyard .. we are all amateurs in diy . The kick wrap with vinyl using the same color as possible to doortrim. I replace the vinyl to 3 times until the results are pretty good, so it will not make me shame in the pictures .
> 
> Right side kick panel
> 
> ...


Absolutely nothing to be ashamed for here!
What a great dash you have there! And great use of it. Have you considered punching holes in there for a moment like Highly has done? 

You quoted some very familiar threads on here, I've read them all. I just wish I would have read them prior to my own build :blush:.

Good work on this install and I'm sure you will be rewarded for that in the end.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Wesayso said:


> Absolutely nothing to be ashamed for here!
> What a great dash you have there! And great use of it. Have you considered punching holes in there for a moment like Highly has done?
> 
> You quoted some very familiar threads on here, I've read them all. I just wish I would have read them prior to my own build :blush:.
> ...


No .. "highly" drives his car 3 months without the dash .. lol. his efford so far away than me and his skill too . 

I've read your build too. Thanks.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Semifinished box with 2 layer ¾” 19mm MDF on top of the top.



















Side view


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Test fit in the car










Thanks tools !










Check the depth after adding some acoustic material. I’ll add some rockwool or glasswool or whatever the name in English .. lol .. to reduce resonance inside the box .. to convert energy into heat.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wrap with vinyl using the same color as possible to car interior and add 2 handle to lift up the heavy box.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Test using driver in the back and finished.










That's it for Subwoofer and thank for reading .. it help me so much like flyon said .. give me big motivation in my build.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

SUPERB!!

That is solid and crafty work!! Excelent! sangat baik!!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Gorgeous work! Will there be a grill to protect the subwoofer?


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## BakedCookies (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

This install continues to impress!!


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



sydmonster said:


> SUPERB!! That is solid and crafty work!! Excelent! sangat baik!!


 very funny.



strakele said:


> Gorgeous work! Will there be a grill to protect the subwoofer?


Yes .. will be. The car is my family car so often to bring goods from the supermarket for shopping etc. Thanks.



BakedCookies said:


> This install continues to impress!!


Thanks .. Good luck with your new system too.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Pimp my ride

Preparing new cable installation and cleaning the car. 



















Remove all unused cable from my previous installation


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Pimp my ride


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wash the plastic and door rubber seal.



















Drying in the sun










That’s it .. smell like a new car again .

My Rear and Side speaker next, i'll prepare the pictures.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Rear_

My front door speaker location will be use for side speaker and parallel with back door rear speaker. I’m happy using rear channel from my previous installation. It works for me and of course depend on the song and how many out of phase information in the song .. if I play some live recording music it’s really amazing .. Just something different experiences compare to normal stereo channel. Using rear fill in the back door do have benefit for back passenger (my kids) also because they can hear the sound much better.

OK .. change the vinyl for the front door to match the kick panel vinyl color.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Side by side with midbass in kick panel .. tweeter for side speaker is not determine yet.



















My Seas for side speaker 6.5” compare to Scanspeak 18W midbass. Later .. I plan to change this Seas and Phass tweeter to JBL GTO 5” / 6” 2 way Coaxial, So the side and rear will using the same speaker.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I can not find the same color vinyl with doortrim .. 

Next is rear speakers in the back door.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Rear speaker using JBL GTO 2 way Coaxial.





































Standard back door for rear speaker .. left is the same.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

My Rear Fill speaker will be like 7.1 channel setup ( Picture b ) with Side speaker ( in Front door ) and Rear speaker ( in Back door ). Refer to standard multichannel, I put 1 set in the front side from listener and 1 set in the back side from listener for 7.1 channel instead of 5.1 setup .. Well, it’s not perfect 7.1 setup actually because no delay and additional decorrelation between side and rear.

The ITU-R BS.775-2 recommendations for (a) five channels (3/2) and (b) seven channels (3/4) :



















“If more than two loudspeakers per side are to be used, it is suggested that they be distributed at equal intervals on the sides. They also state that the signals to the additional side/rear loudspeakers may need to be delayed or otherwise decorrelated. This is most likely to reduce the risk that listeners may localize the loudspeakers, to further enhance the sense of envelopment, and to eliminate the possibility of acoustical interference effects. In 7.1-channel surround processors, this should be a standard feature. The angular range includes the symmetrical front-back situation, something that has been shown to be less than ideal in 3/2 systems. However, the existence of an additional pair of side-located loudspeakers in 3/4 or higher-order surround configurations would likely alleviate this problem.” Dr. Toole.

I don’t know it works or not in a car .. but I think that’s will be something different in sound. MS-8 will take care the delayed, bandwidth limited and decorrelated signal to add sense of large space .. I hope it works .

That’s it for my rear speaker and thank’s for reading my build.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Very cool. Looks like you're taking full advantage of what the MS-8 can do. Wish I could hear this car.


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## Khymera-B (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Clean install man, nice


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## Mopar244DIY (Dec 1, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



strakele said:


> Very cool. Looks like you're taking full advantage of what the MS-8 can do. Wish I could hear this car.


Me too! Loving the build. Keep up the good work!


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Very nice. Have you decided on a xo point for the Tang Bang ceramics?


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Thanks guys .. 



strakele said:


> Very cool. Looks like you're taking full advantage of what the MS-8 can do. Wish I could hear this car.


.. and so your build is very nice too.



Khymera-B said:


> Clean install man, nice


.. I'll post the video like yours after all done.



Mopar244DIY said:


> Me too! Loving the build. Keep up the good work!


.. and Me too ! .. I enjoy this very much.



Spyke said:


> Very nice. Have you decided on a xo point for the Tang Bang ceramics?


.. and No i don't. But something like 3K will be good for starting point.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Preparing for measurement process 

DIY extension MS-8 headphone cable .. It’ll make me easy to do calibration and measurement using MS-8 after measurement process done. 

So I can unplug it near my seat instead of go back to MS-8 and always find where’s the jack hole . 

Length is about 1 meter.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

DIY Aux In for MS-8 from my ipad or ipod headphone stereo jack. My head unit is Clarion HX-D2 CD Audio Only so i can buy another DVD player for my second slot and connect to this Aux In using RCA too.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

For fun I wanna make it .. DIY headphone for calibrating MS-8 using 2 Panasonic electret capsule with my broken headphone .. and see how good the non calibrated mic result later ..  .. I believe the difference is at high frequency only and since MS-8 using binaural mic with spacial averaging measurement .. even difference at head moving when we do “looking at driver and passanger side” its only at high frequency masking and not for low frequency.










I’ll cut MS-8 original headphone cable make it to shorten to about 1.5 meter only ( with bigger mic cable extension because the original is very small cable ) so together with my extention cable it will be about 2.5 meter in length. I’m not worry because I still have the other MS-8 box from my wife car so I can switch back whenever something wrong happened .. I’ll prepare the picture when done.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I Make a note for MS-8 Headphone route to new jack before cut the cable










I cut one by one and checked with avo meter to make sure right and left is correct, and the ground is not short with right and left cable. It's not easy because the original cable is very small and must be carefull to make it. 



















After cut the cable and change with new jack 3.5 mm .. the red sign is the right side headphone.




























Add a little foam inside the mic.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Left is extension cable from MS-8 to Headphone.










New MS-8 Headphone


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Making the tweeter cover ( Left, Right and Center ) .. I use passive for midrange and tweeter so no time delay for tweeter .. In case I’ll need that to cover the tweeter so MS-8 will locate the midrange or midbass location only for time delay at measurement process.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Power Amplifier and Processor ( RCA and Speaker Cable )_

All the front speaker are connected to power amplifier using Wirewold cable, subwoofer using 12awg coupled Stinger cable and all rear speaker using the same cable .. I choose this because their flexibility to install, durable, easy to solder with speaker poles, nice cooper and price is not expensive. 










DC + and – using 4 awg for all power amplifier and 8 awg for MS-8 with distribution block.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

RCA from HU to MS-8 and MS-8 to power amplifier using Phass RCA ( except MS8 for Rear channel out and MS-8 Aux In ), the cheap RCA cable make me difficult to DIY the RCA because the thin part strand is easy to break for my experience .. it wasting my time, nothing else. My power amplifier are under the seats so I just need short cables to install. I used Monoprice RCA (RG 59u base) for MS-8 Rear out and MS-8 Aux In. My experience is always test using avo meter and check your RCA cable + to + and + to – because one of my Monoprice RCA is get shorted from + to – from factory .. it makes me worries and less confidence .. So, I decide to cut my 5 meter Phass RCA from my previous installation to be my front RCA.



















DIY custom length RCA for under seat MS-8 and power amplifier .. 2 mtr for HU to MS-8, 1 mtr x 3 set for MS-8 to Front High, Front Low, Center + Subwoofer with DIY Y RCA ( Bridge ).




















I've finished all the preparations
Time to install all the equipments

Thanks for reading and wish me luck .


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Done ... 

Ladies and gentlemen ...

*It Works !!!*

It's midnight here. I'll post pictures tomorrow.
I can't wait to share my happiness with you who read my build and support me.

Thanks very much.


----------



## req (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

awesome dude 

very cool modding!!


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Can't wait to hear how it sounds..., well at least read about it


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## i_theo (Jan 15, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Well done... I've check every update from your build.
I never read build like yours, every page is very interesting.
Congrats !


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

GREAT!! 

...were obviously all very curious. How's the sound? are you still tweeking/tuning?


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



req said:


> awesome dude  very cool modding!!


Thanks sir .. Try my best to make it.



Wesayso said:


> Can't wait to hear how it sounds..., well at least read about it


Sure .. It sound great .. I wanna make a video when I have time. Thanks for your support .. 
I have a new experience about the sound and sort of my rear fill is amazing.



i_theo said:


> Well done... I've check every update from your build. I never read build like yours, every page is very interesting.
> Congrats !


Thanks for reading my build


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



sydmonster said:


> GREAT!! ... were obviously all very curious. How's the sound? are you still tweeking/tuning?


Yes and Yes ... This time i'll let my equipments to break in first.

It sound great to me. I make a note .. where i can improve the sound.
My dash is still open and not put the acoustic things yet. I'll try my best to describe how's the sound honestly .. 
The difficulty is my english  its not good enough .. sorry about that.

Anyone said that it will sound like stock speaker is not happen to me. 
Of course i'll have days to tuning time and make it sound better than first day auto tune result. 

Syd .. Let me know when you’re on vacation here


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Power Amplifier and Processor Installation_

Clarion HX-D2 out and other source to MS-8 Line In and Aux In


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Distribution Block from Battery as JL Audio recommendation to use 2 awg or bigger for 2 power .. but I still use 4 awg for my installation. It’s easy to change later .. MS-8 using 8 awg cable.

There’s big space behind glove box I can put MS-8 there so my left under seat will free. Next plan for upgrade power maybe. 










Under left seat .. for JBL MS-8


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Route the cables .. From Processor to Power Amplifier, I hate engine noise. 



















The middle console put back in place.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Under right seat .. for JL HD-900.5 and 600.4 

I've installed the processor under the left seat .. RCA output through in the middle console to the right side. I've tried to separate the DC +- cable as far away as possible from RCA and speaker cable. All installation seems like common install .. nothing special.

Front High ( Midrange and Tweeter using passive ) -> @150 Watt x 2 
Front Low ( Midbass ) -> @150 Watt x 2 
Center ( Midbass and Tweeter using Passive ) -> @150 Watt x 1 
Side + Rear ( Midbass and Tweeter ) -> @100 Watt x 2 
Subwoofer -> @500 Watt x 1 

Total is 1500 Watt.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Finished install all the cables.



















Close up .. and looks nice


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

All seats are back .. Time to Going Live Check for the first time.










Turn down all the amplifier gain incase something wrong happend .. 

Connect the fuse at battery in the front .. aaaaaaannd .. *PERFECT !* 

Nothing wrong with all the power cable connection .. its a good start. 

Go back inside the car in the driver side .. Start the engine ignation key to on .. 

Slowly turn on Head Unit power .. all the led lamp in the power and processor .. iiiiiiss .. *GREEN ! *

Nothing wrong with the head unit, power and processor .. another good start.

A few seconds later the JBL MS-8 Screen turn on .. ask for calibration and set the configuration .. I set all with almost standard MS-8 default option. Start with MS-8 volume to -45. 

A few minutes later and after calibration and measurement done .. 

*IT WORKS .. IT WOOORKS .. !*

I check with engine off and on .. Lamp off and on .. etc. No noise at all .. No alternator issue .. Very silent .. everything looks great.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> All seats are back .. Time to Going Live Check for the first time.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Well done!! Your patience, pre work and install has paid off!! Time for you to enjoy! 

Im sure most will agree, its a great feeling of much relief & excitement when everything works and works the first time you turn it all on.
Spesh when you've made all your own cables etc.


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## dales (Dec 16, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

totally awesome. wow


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## eka00 (Jan 10, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

this is awesome, let's see your dash speaker


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

This is personally review to my new system. I know I've less experience compare to all the experts system here, but let me describe what I've heard as is. 

I use my ipad2 using JL Audio tools - SPL Meter to level match all 7 outputs except subwoofer gain level to turn down. I never change all the gain and prefer to find the best combination from the MS-8 volume level with head moving at calibration and measurement process .. Turn the gain a little up will be last option because I still make plenty of calibration. 

I found that if my output aren’t in the same level, I lost some gain structure in the sound after calibration .. I set my MS-8 to range 40 – 50 and set -6 after calibration with volume in head unit HX-D2 to 35 as my standard .. So I know when the output gain volume will change after calibration. 

After several times to calibration and workaround ..

I start with 2 way front with subwoofer for a single seat. Center Image is well define in the center of dash near the winshield. I heard some vocal range is wide in the center dash using phantom center like this. A litle movement of my head will make the center image go .. so I think without a center channel people must hear the sound at a sweet spot angle only. We don't do that always right ? When I drive sometimes I move a little to the left and to the right. Not always in the sweet spot.

Using center speaker as center channel is difference result. Vocal range narrower in the center dash and no matter i move my head the vocal still hear from the center of dash. I heard the vocal more narrow, clear and solid .. Everything other than mono center vocal exist in the front left and right .. the separation is wide. Between center and front speaker transition is smooth, I think MS-8 attenuate -6db to each front side so it doesn't sound too mono in the center. 

If center channel use only for one seat than i turn down "Ctr" in "System Level" about 1 or 2 clicks .. it's great .. sound like 2 way front with steady center image. If I want to use for dual seat listening than I change the "Ctr" in "System Level" about 1 or 2 clicks .. it's great for dual listening position. 

I boost the "Sub" in the "System Level" together with "Bas" in the "Tone Control" menu and some boost in the "Graphic EQ" to get more bass impact (thanks "Strakele" for suggest this) it really good bass upfront.

I minimize path length different for all front speakers and as wide as possible .. Put speaker inside the dash ("Highly" Style) make different sound too .. at least for what I hear. Something like the sound is coming so far from away from my face and PLD between left and right sound less bias effect. All bass in stick in the winshield, there's nothing between dash and my ear. This is the first time I here a sound like this. 

When I hear some live recording like Eagles - Hell Freeze album and David Foster and friends album ( Hit man and others ) .. wow ! I heard a new experience for hearing the songs. I think my side and rear speaker works great. Feel like I come to the show with people around me. I can hear applause and scream near and far from my position .. it's sound difference than standard 2 way stereo perform.

Since I use rear speaker so my back passanger seat sounds good too.

I think my system about 75% done and still there are 25% I can improve .


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

To do list :

Change the side speaker in the front door to another JBL coaxial. My Seas and Phass Tweeter are different sensitivity ( too low ) compare to my JBL coaxial in the back door. I wanna make more balance in gain level volume since they are in paralel mode with the same power output channel.

Midrange to Tweeter integration .. I need more .. I'll make a simple pasif for my tweeter and midrange and level match them. This time I just add a non polar capacitor for tweeter, just fine but there’s some area in xover point that I can improve.

Add my acoustic foam in the dash .. and wish some reflection at high frequency will be reduced and make sound better. 

Aperiodic Membran to Front Midbass and add some treatment in the box.

Move the front left and right tweeter to sail panel and leave midrange in the corner .. or above the midrange in the corner just to hear what happen in sound. 

RTA'ing to final tuning 31 band Graphic EQ and some level adjustment.

.. etc

OK .. That's it .. Not bad I think for DIYMA freshman like me .

Thanks for reading.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I would love to hear it man. i keep hearing horror stories of the MS-8 causing all kinds of tuning problems, it would be real cool if JBL would allow the user to tweak it further after all the settings have been applied


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Wish I could hear your setup. Do you have pictures of your dash finished?


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



sydmonster said:


> Well done!! Your patience, pre work and install has paid off!! Time for you to enjoy!  Im sure most will agree, its a great feeling of much relief & excitement when everything works and works the first time you turn it all on. Spesh when you've made all your own cables etc.





dales said:


> totally awesome. wow





eka00 said:


> this is awesome, let's see your dash speaker





m0sdef said:


> Wish I could hear your setup. Do you have pictures of your dash finished?


Thanks guys ..

Still needs more improvement in this and that .. but overall i'm happy with the result. No .. my dash or inside my dash is not finish yet. Sure i'll upload the pictures after done.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



req said:


> I would love to hear it man. i keep hearing horror stories of the MS-8 causing all kinds of tuning problems, it would be real cool if JBL would allow the user to tweak it further after all the settings have been applied


Mr. Andy Wehmeyer said that If MS-8 just took the on-chip library from the TI DSP that are using and added a GUI, this product would have been finished three to four years ago, but it would have been just like every other DSP EQ/Crossover. There would have been a bunch of people who can pronounce "equalizer" and who have heard the terms "Butterworth", Linkwitz-Riley" and "All-pass filter" raving about the resolution of the available adjustments. So I think JBL will never do that .. MS-8 use System Level, Tone Control and 31 Graphics Equalizer for MS-8’s owner to tune since they believe if every output already have correction filter or equalized .. So no need to break the algorithm.

About horror stories ..  Yes I read that too .. many times. The differences between manual processor and MS-8, one is a toolbox and the other is a carpenter. If the result is not good then we can blame the carpenter right ? but if we use the toolbox so we can’t blame the toolbox right ? I see people move on to other processor and at the same time, they change the design, installation and equipment too .. So myself, I don’t understand where's the effect of result "better" come from. 

Req .. below posts are only my personal thinking about why I still love MS-8.

One year back when I decided to use MS-8 .. I read so much about this product from all over forum that discussed about it around the e-world. I got very big motivation and always love to read that for many times. My brain thing something like this : If one or more person can make it great and I believe with them, then it will work for me too. If the result is not good for me .. then everything different between them and mine are the cause and that’s my duty to find the answers. That’s why there are always champion no.1, 2, 3, .. and last. Gary biggs in Carsound forum said like this ( this, one of my motivation came from ) :

_“Well as mentioned above there are several ways you can accomplish your goals. The old school way or the new and improved way... I definately would opt for the new way using the MS-8... I spent years and years perfecting the Regal, It sounds great! its one of the best sounding cars that ever hit the competiton lanes..... Andy and I also built a little BMW last year using the STOCK SYSTEM and only added the MS-8, subwoofers and amplifers, and spent about 2 hours tuning on top of the MS-8 auto-tune and it outscored every car at the 2007 SBN. event in Daytona, and it does some things better than the regal ever could.... simple system..... left mid and tweet, center mid and tweet, right mid and tweet, couple subs and MS-8 and your done. It will do 95 percent of all the tuning for you, you can go back and add a little sugar and spice if you like... and it will most likely sound better than 95 % of the old school systems that any of us have ever built.. I would not recommend adding tweeters to the pillars and adding L-pads and all of that stuff, its not needed, now-a days... it was back in the day, but we have moved on...... hope this helps...”

“Every since the first installation in the Regal, I have used the Rane processors. We have had several competitors using a processor that has evoloved into the MS-8. After the 05" season wrapped up, I integrated an early version of the MS-8 into the installation. It was mounted under the passenger seat. I didnt show it to anyone, several people noticed the cable and the small display attached to the windshield where the mirror used to be, I dismissed it as the Ipod controller. I never included it into my competition presentation. The Ranes were originally installed under the trunk lid, having since been romoved. Tuning with the Ranes in this particular installation was a night-mare. Since I have set the car up with the new processing, I havnt touched it since.”_

Back to my statement if one or more person can make it great .. I’ll make it too. Of course Gary, Andy and other expert vs Tendean17 is like night and day skill .. but if .. in scope that we used manual tuned processor. I wish that I have 50% to 75% result from their system .. it’s enough for me. 
My experience is MS-8 still need workaround to make it works great and there’re some limitation and that’s our duty.. it’s not just plug and play processor to solve everything .. it needs our help too .. best speaker placement, minimize PLD, enough power, acoustic treatment, etc. So we must work together and the result is great for me. Oh and the best speaker in center channel with the same bandwidth with front channel makes my life easy.

Thanks Req.


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## i_theo (Jan 15, 2011)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Make sense to me and thanks.

I'm waiting for your next progress.


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## JLTw7 (Apr 4, 2012)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Solid solid solid built. I admire the work that you have done in this install. Very very impressive.

I also have an MS8 in one of my cars and because of your post, I am beginning to like it more


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

_Build and Install -> Dashboard_

I've started with making my dash cover with this steel .. It’s very difficult to make a precision shape with my dash ..
After several days and try many times with or without other people’s help .. then I give up .. :mean:










Plan change back to use resin and fiberglass with wire (animal cage) to the dash.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Covering original dash with carpet. 










Cut the wire that usually for animal cage .. sorry I don’t know exactly the name in English. 
Diameter each wire is about 2mm. It’s not easy to make it. 
When I press the wire at corner then other side will change too.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Test fit with the dash.



















Zoom picture. 










Next to add resin and fiberglass the edge on the white line .. then I’ll add cloth on top of the dash and acoustic foam below the dash.

That’s it .. for now.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



JLTw7 said:


> Solid solid solid built. I admire the work that you have done in this install. Very very impressive. I also have an MS8 in one of my cars and because of your post, I am beginning to like it more


And so do I 

My system going better and better .. and I swear .. Seriously I heard the sound of the song that I had never heard before, something like a click of the tongue .. little breath of the singer .. effects of the intro music .. friction of the guitar .. people applause more clearly .. etc. 
The hidden effect became my guideline at the time of calibration and measurement .. because at certain conditions that effects could be more clear and louder after measurement done and no change in the EQ. 
I played that compact disc to some of my friend’s car and yes, some of the effect didn’t hear there. 
I’m happy .. how can it be sound like that or my previous system is not that good. 

I can not wait to hear how it sounds after I put the acoustics foam around the center, front speaker and in the pillar after I finished the dashboard.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

I believe the proper name for the mesh is "wire fencing"

Your work is impressive, keep it up, bro!


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Nice work! I am interested to know how your "rear fill" worked in the front stage. If I am correct you positioned the rears up front in the kicks correct? If I read that correctly it sounds very interesting


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Im just now seeing this install log....Im kind of humbled that someone would actually make a collection of notable quotes, especially mine...


But just so you know, most of what I say is some random **** I read in a fortune cookie or something earlier in the day


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

What Mic said! 

I like how you have taken examples from your research and made them your own. From humble beginnings you are creating some exceptional results! Keep up the excellent work! Though the MS-8 may not be the best processor for a competition environment, it can produce a very enjoyable and balanced system listening experience. Very well done.

-Todd


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



IBcivic said:


> I believe the proper name for the mesh is "wire fencing" Your work is impressive, keep it up, bro!


I googled it and you are right .. thanks


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Bluenote said:


> Nice work! I am interested to know how your "rear fill" worked in the front stage. If I am correct you positioned the rears up front in the kicks correct? If I read that correctly it sounds very interesting


Kicks are for midbass and front door are for my rear (side).










Back door are for my rear (rear).










The Front (Side) and back (Rear) coaxial speaker connected paralel using the same channel from MS-8.

So looks something like 7.1 multi channel setup.










I'm interesting too


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Mic10is said:


> Im just now seeing this install log....Im kind of humbled that someone would actually make a collection of notable quotes, especially mine... But just so you know, most of what I say is some random **** I read in a fortune cookie or something earlier in the day


But, it still help me so much especially to improve my knowledge.
Maybe no one knows that i've more collections than these (including from your posts) .. Thanks 



highly said:


> What Mic said!
> I like how you have taken examples from your research and made them your own. From humble beginnings you are creating some exceptional results! Keep up the excellent work! Though the MS-8 may not be the best processor for a competition environment, it can produce a very enjoyable and balanced system listening experience. Very well done. -Todd


Your build 2010 and 2011 gives me very much inspirations sir.
I'm waiting for your next 2013 build for dual listening position.
I don't go to a competition .. just enjoy the system with new experience.

I am honored sir .. Thanks


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> Kicks are for midbass and front door are for my rear (side).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tendean17, I just re-read your entire build log...phenomenal attention to detail, taking notes from our seasoned veterans and executing a very elaborate plan...you make it look so easy LOL


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Change the Head Unit .. One of the best looking and unique Head Unit available in the market I think .. it’s Panasonic CQ TX5500w 



















I still have both .. the Clarion HX-D2 and this Panny Tube.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Many people use this HU show the Night Shoot Photo .. and so do I.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Looks awesome! How does it sound?


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



strakele said:


> Looks awesome! How does it sound?


Thanks Strakele .. 

The only equipment that MS-8 doesn’t need to recalibrate / remeasurement is Head Unit (Using RCA Line Out) .. since all sweep done by MS-8 it self. So I just change the Head Unit and yes they sound very different between Clarion HX-D2 and Panasonic (Panny Bottlehead).

So I know the difference and comparable with all default level and setting in MS-8 .. I hear my system matching better with the Panasonic .. Sound more live and dynamic to me, especially Low to Midrange Panny is better significantly .. High and Detail I hear almost the same with MS-8 Auto Tune ..

When using Clarion HX-D2, I have to boost the Midbass and Subwoofer Level and using this panny my Low Freq have better result with Clarion HX-D2 using Direct Mode (Preamp Only) and so the Panny all tone control is 0 (Preamp Only) Loudness is off.

I don’t know .. maybe something about tube distortion, buffer voltage or the preamp adding some eq or whatever .. but I like this HU. Mr Eric “SoundJunkies” used this HU before changed to McIntosh together with MS-8 .. his experience far away from me and he had good result for what I read .. So it will not have a bad result I think. 

I’d tried 3 Head Unit in my system actually : Clarion HX-D2, Alpine 9887 and Panasonic tube .. All give difference result with the same MS-8 calibration and measurement. With Panny tube the Low (Midbass) and Midrange frequency is the best for me. 

I’ll upgrade the tube with the Platinum Tube .. Western Electric JW 2C51 (396A) Tubes (Military version) .. with Kuhl-Tube Cryo Treatment .. Year 1959 (34/26 and 34/26) .. Buy from https://www.tubeworld.com/300a399b.htm .. Brendan from tubeworld said : 26 is a medium test # on a TV-7 tube tester. The single tube is dual triode (Preamp Stereo) and sections are balanced 34 and 34 match pair, which is very rare and good. I don’t have knowledge and experience about tube .. it’s not too expensive so I like to know and compare the result since I have the standard GE Tube also. 

After change this Head Unit .. I have an experience that JBL MS-8 output result is depends on what equipment we have. My equipment are the same except the Head Unit and having significant different result. The Gain on Power Amplifier is the same and also my xover and my step during calibration and measurement and the result is very different. So everyone experience will be difference with this auto tune although using the same target curve by default MS-8 calibration / measurement. Time for me to tune the level and EQ again using new equipment.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> The only equipment that MS-8 doesn’t need to recalibrate / remeasurement is Head Unit (Using RCA Line Out) .. since all sweep done by MS-8 it self.


Actually, the MS-8 DOES correct for differences in the headunit using the calibration CD - it attempts to correct any frequency response issues during that portion of Setup. Curious what kinds of differences it would make for you.

-Todd


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



highly said:


> Actually, the MS-8 DOES correct for differences in the headunit using the calibration CD - it attempts to correct any frequency response issues during that portion of Setup. Curious what kinds of differences it would make for you.
> 
> -Todd


I use RCA Front Line Out from Head Unit to MS-8 Line In .. so I choose “Skip Input Setup” using MS-8 CD Calibration. When I make calibration setup step .. My Head Unit is Pause Mode. If we use speaker out then we must use MS-8 CD Calibration to make OK, OK, OK then calibrate.

Some post from Andy Wehmeyer :
“You should only choose "Skip input setup" to avoid the input processing if you're using the 2-channel full range outputs of an aftermarket head unit. If you're using a factory head, you should run input setup. As a general rule, if the front speakers include a midbass driver, that's enough of the signal for MS-8 to figure out what it needs to figure out. If the mids are little (BMW 3-series, for example), then hooking up the output of the factory subwoofer amp may be necessary.”


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



Tendean17 said:


> I use RCA Front Line Out from Head Unit to MS-8 Line In .. so I choose “Skip Input Setup” using MS-8 CD Calibration. When I make calibration setup step .. My Head Unit is Pause Mode. If we use speaker out then we must use MS-8 CD Calibration to make OK, OK, OK then calibrate.
> 
> Some post from Andy Wehmeyer :
> “You should only choose "Skip input setup" to avoid the input processing if you're using the 2-channel full range outputs of an aftermarket head unit. If you're using a factory head, you should run input setup. As a general rule, if the front speakers include a midbass driver, that's enough of the signal for MS-8 to figure out what it needs to figure out. If the mids are little (BMW 3-series, for example), then hooking up the output of the factory subwoofer amp may be necessary.”


Sure, not running input setup is one way to go, but by running input setup you are taking one more variable out of the process and allowing the MS-8 to correct everything in its domain. Is it necessary? No. Can it be helpful? My experience says yes. Yours may, in fact, differ.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



highly said:


> Sure, not running input setup is one way to go, but by running input setup you are taking one more variable out of the process and allowing the MS-8 to correct everything in its domain. Is it necessary? No. Can it be helpful? My experience says yes. Yours may, in fact, differ.


Oh .. OK .. Since I never use Input Setup .. I’ll try that using Calibration CD.
I always trust your ears than mine 

Thanks Todd.


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*



highly said:


> Sure, not running input setup is one way to go, but by running input setup you are taking one more variable out of the process and allowing the MS-8 to correct everything in its domain. Is it necessary? No. Can it be helpful? My experience says yes. Yours may, in fact, differ.


I read again the User Guide : “If you are using an aftermarket head unit and have connected the head unit’s front left output and right line outputs to the MS-8’s line inputs 1 and 2, you may select Skip Input Setup and go directly to Output Setup” -> May not Must .. so I think Todd is correct.

Then, I recalibrate using input setup with calibration CD.

Increase the volume control until Signal, Level and Balance = OK,OK,OK appear at -11 db using Panasonic volume control. Then MS-8 Acquiring (analyzed and corrects input signal) and continue to calibration process.

This is the first time if I change the Processing -> Active is almost the same volume level compare to Processing -> Defeat .. So I think there will be more headroom for my system now and I don’t loose some db gain (I level match acoustic output using power amplifier gain before this and never change the gain except subwoofer gain). So I can’t say output comparation with HX-D2 since I use different steps.

Since I reset sytem to default so next will be a little tuning, but using default auto tune it sound balance and nice sounding between High, Mid and Low .. It’s not psycoacoustics (I prepare my self for this) Maybe MS-8 boost and cut differently everytime, sometime bunch of correction and sometime not .. and I hear my system more relax and not too stress now 

Very worthed to do this. 

Thanks.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Great to see this car evolving, the owner still takes time to tweek and evolve himself! Excelent all round here!!


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## Tendean17 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Thanks SydMonster.

Panasonic Tube Pre Amp Upgrade to Western Electric JW 2C51 – WE396A Match Pair Section .. Just arrives today from USA .. can’t wait to see the result .. 










After remove the glass cover .. Slide out the original tube board .. 










Remove the original preamp tube from the slot and replace with the new one.










Slide in back to the place.










After plug back the glass cover then Power On .. Warming Up to about 10 seconds .. and .. Works !










With and Without new MS-8 Recalibration .. it sound more detail and better .. and this is personal and subjective opinion only. I try to be as Objective as possible to my self .. so I can hear the difference. 

For beginner perspective .. I’m happy to the overall result so far


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## stixzerjan (Feb 6, 2010)

*Re: Tendean17’s - Nissan Grand Livina 2007 with 17 speakers*

Woah, this build is from 2012 and now its inspires me to build the same car i have myself. Hopefully the owner is still here.


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