# Horns in a home system



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

I know horns have been used in home systems, I used to have a pair of those big ass Klipsch speakers and they sounded ok. They were not the best, but I know there are others that sound really good. I now have a pair of the *ES Mini* horns that unfortunately do not fit in my car (too close to the clutch) so I was contemplating the idea of maybe build something for my home system using these horns. 

Do you think these horns will be at least mildly suited for a home system?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Depends on the waveguide and woofer you match them to. Sure, you could just slap something in your HT and call it a day. Many people do it all the time. But what you really need to do is to understand the purpose of the waveguide and how it's best implemented in to the rest of the system. Which leads to this...

Waveguides are designed to provide a certain pattern. That pattern is based on it's design (shape). This pattern is intended to match to the woofer's response (as the woofer is beaming). Some waveguides are designed to provide a 180x180 degree horizontal/vertical pattern while maintaining constant directivity down to 500hz. Some horns are designed for 60x45 degree horizontal/vertical polar with directivity control down to 1khz. All sorts of designs are available from numerous manufacturers.

Ultimately, the use of a waveguide boils down to the woofer you're mating it to which then takes you to the compression driver you use and the waveguide's polar. Without knowing the polar pattern control of your waveguides, it's hard to predict what you'll think. For example, you don't want a 15" woofer beaming at 500hz with a 1" CD that can barely reach 1khz and a horn providing only directivity down to 1.2khz. It'll make sound, but it won't be good. And, of course, the directivity control you want is also trial and error with the home (or at the least, some good hard research).

If I had to guess, I'd say that the car waveguides are not a good use for a home. But that's your call. The polars to me are not symmetrical enough (at least, based on the designs I've seen) across the horizontal axis to make a good fit and I'm assuming the vertical polar window is fairly narrow (that actually could be a good thing, depending on other factors such as room and preference). Obviously the person who designed these will know more about their radiation patterns. I'm not at all knocking the car waveguides, _by any means_. In fact, I really think the fact they were purpose designed for the car regarding it's polar response is great. It's just that I don't expect the reasons they were designed the way they are to carry well over to the home. (For one thing, the waveguides are intended to be used under the dash so the dash panel can help be an extension of the horn's guide. Using a car audio waveguide on top of a woofer in your home won't provide that.)
IMHO, I say sell your ES Mini's to someone who can use them in the car and look in to the DIY SEOS horn designs available on diysoundgroup.com if you really want to play with HE home system. 


For reference, I use a 15" JBL woofer with a JBL 2446J 2" CD and a big ol' JBL 2382A horn (controlled directivity down to 500hz with a 120x40 deg polar) in my HT. It sounds great, but it's really purpose-used in my home; messing with aiming was critical to determine the best sounding setup. I also had to use a shelf filter on the horn to match the 10khz+ response in level to that of the response below that because I'm using a 2" CD. (I have a couple Rane RPM88 running my L/C/R 2-way active)
My HT setup with the HE drivers starts here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6-erins-ht-room-real-time-10.html#post2197846


Not trying to be a Debbie-Downer on this. Just trying to give you some real-world use and understanding of the implications of implementing a horn/waveguide in to a system.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just as a shoot-off, here's a good write-up by Earl Geddes himself regarding the Horn vs Waveguide nomenclature.

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/What is a Waveguide.pdf

Specifically:


Earl Geddes said:


> It should be obvious at this point that all waveguides are horns, but not all horns are waveguides. The difference is if the directivity of the device can be analyzed analytically or not. If the directivity cannot be analyzed then the device cannot be said to be designed for directivity control. This is why it is sometimes said that waveguides are used to control directivity, but horns are used for loading. There is some truth in this, but it’s not completely correct either.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Wow, great reply Erin. I'll do some reading before I decide what to do. Thanks!


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

to follow up on erins reply, i have that same JBL setup he mentioned in storage. could potentially be for sale


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Big ass Klipsch speakers sounds awesome, not just OK and only need few watts to do so due to crazy high sensitivity.


----------



## lostthumb (Dec 16, 2005)

ErinH said:


> Depends on the waveguide and woofer you match them to. Sure, you could just slap something in your HT and call it a day. Many people do it all the time. But what you really need to do is to understand the purpose of the waveguide and how it's best implemented in to the rest of the system. Which leads to this...
> 
> Waveguides are designed to provide a certain pattern. That pattern is based on it's design (shape). This pattern is intended to match to the woofer's response (as the woofer is beaming). Some waveguides are designed to provide a 180x180 degree horizontal/vertical pattern while maintaining constant directivity down to 500hz. Some horns are designed for 60x45 degree horizontal/vertical polar with directivity control down to 1khz. All sorts of designs are available from numerous manufacturers.
> 
> ...


Erin is correct. Although mostly everything he wrote is beyond my understanding. I once asked Matt Borgardt if using the HCLD in the home would yield good results. He stated that the Image Dynamics / ES horn lens were designed to use the dash as an extension.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Big ass Klipsch speakers sounds awesome, not just OK and only need few watts to do so due to crazy high sensitivity.


It depends, older speakers sound much better than the newer ones which sound ok. I had the newer ones which were given to me. That is my opinion.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Geesh Erin , didn't know you liked horns so much. But your exactly right. I've done it , and not surprisingly a 5$ jbl 90 deg horn sounded better. 

And to add to what you said ; the cone size vs. horn size does matter as well in coverage area And even FR around th room 
(edit you said that already)


@op

It works in close proximity with horns at far outer mounting , but inner mounting would be an issue somewhat compared to what's out there as far as horn lens for pennies


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

oabeieo said:


> Geesh Erin , didn't know you liked horns so much. But your exactly right. I've done it , and not surprisingly a 5$ jbl 90 deg horn sounded better.
> 
> And to add to what you said ; the cone size vs. horn size does matter as well in coverage area And even FR around th room
> (edit you said that already)
> ...


Are you referencing the Pyle clone I recommended? It's really nice isn't it! It's so cheap, you'd think it would be junk, but I've found it's literally one of the best you can buy.

For my money, the two best waveguides I've used are that Pyle clone, and the big QSC waveguide. They're pretty similar to each other; the QSC costs more and plays lower.

It's hard to say what the best horn is, because horns and waveguides are designed to do different things. TBH I haven't run across a commercial horn that I was really enthusiastic about*, but there are lots of good cheap waveguides these days.



* when I say "commercial horn", I mean one for the DIY crowd. I've heard tons of HiFi horns that sound good, but those rarely use "off the shelf" parts.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Are you referencing the Pyle clone I recommended? It's really nice isn't it! It's so cheap, you'd think it would be junk, but I've found it's literally one of the best you can buy.
> 
> For my money, the two best waveguides I've used are that Pyle clone, and the big QSC waveguide. They're pretty similar to each other; the QSC costs more and plays lower.
> 
> ...



As a matter of fact the Pyle clone is very very good, I was actually thinking a 5"x5" selenium (jbl) 90deg, and I was thinking a good horn to mate up to a 8" or a car mid , the Pyle with a 10-12" is fantastic. Even with a clunky bolt on adaptor its good .


----------



## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Still have a set of Klipsch KLF-10s with a pretty good size horn. I still enjoy their sound and they do get loud with only a few watts. I always wanted a set of Chorus II or Klipschorns. But I digress!


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Old Skewl said:


> Still have a set of Klipsch KLF-10s with a pretty good size horn. I still enjoy their sound and they do get loud with only a few watts. I always wanted a set of Chorus II or Klipschorns. But I digress!


The klf wasn't horrible, the tweeter mounted in that big horn could have used a full on compression driver, IIRC.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> Geesh Erin , didn't know you liked horns so much.


hey, man. just because I don't post a lot (or a lot about horns) doesn't mean I'm not a fan. 

I've been spending the past year or so coming up with different ideas for the HT with all sorts of CD/waveguide combos. On the flip side, I've also been considering simply upgrading my 2446's to a Truextant BeX4016 beryllium diaphragm but that's a lot of cash... nearly BMS coaxial money...


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

ErinH said:


> hey, man. just because I don't post a lot (or a lot about horns) doesn't mean I'm not a fan.
> 
> I've been spending the past year or so coming up with different ideas for the HT with all sorts of CD/waveguide combos. On the flip side, I've also been considering simply upgrading my 2446's to a Truextant BeX4016 beryllium diaphragm but that's a lot of cash... nearly BMS coaxial money...


Now that would be the hotness . I've been drooling over those for awhile while browsing for speaker porn


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I come from the home audio side recently, car audio installer about 20+ years ago. For the home, I love high efficiency designs, which primarily use horns with compression drivers. A real popular speaker on AVS is the JBL 4722n for their value and extreme performance. They are designed to go behind a screen in a theater as they aren't the prettiest to look at but boy do they perform. I just heard a room last week with 7 JBL 4722ns with upgraded CDs and JBL SCS8 for Atmos. Having the same speakers for surrounds as fronts made for a truly smooth and integrated surround experience. It didn't hurt that he had a large suspended floor that made the pair of Mariana 24 subs I delivered truly a tactile experience.

While the JBL 4722ns are popular on AVS, my favorite speaker is still the JTR 212HTR with the BMS 4594 coaxial CD. As a matter of fact I just received a pair of Veritas Horns last week and plan to try the BMS 4594 CDs in the car. No telling how well they'll sound but I'm at least going to give it a shot. If they don't sound good, I'll try to find some of the larger ID horns to see if they'll sound any better. If I can get the sound of the JTR 212s in the car, I'll be ecstatic.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I am hoping some large AMT tweeters will satisfy my HE itch for a while.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ just go with the line array CD's.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dgage said:


> I come from the home audio side recently, car audio installer about 20+ years ago. For the home, I love high efficiency designs, which primarily use horns with compression drivers. A real popular speaker on AVS is the JBL 4722n for their value and extreme performance. They are designed to go behind a screen in a theater as they aren't the prettiest to look at but boy do they perform. I just heard a room last week with 7 JBL 4722ns with upgraded CDs and JBL SCS8 for Atmos. Having the same speakers for surrounds as fronts made for a truly smooth and integrated surround experience. It didn't hurt that he had a large suspended floor that made the pair of Mariana 24 subs I delivered truly a tactile experience.
> 
> While the JBL 4722ns are popular on AVS, my favorite speaker is still the JTR 212HTR with the BMS 4594 coaxial CD. As a matter of fact I just received a pair of Veritas Horns last week and plan to try the BMS 4594 CDs in the car. No telling how well they'll sound but I'm at least going to give it a shot. If they don't sound good, I'll try to find some of the larger ID horns to see if they'll sound any better. If I can get the sound of the JTR 212s in the car, I'll be ecstatic.


4594 isn't that a 1.4"exit on veritas horns? Not sure that will work unless you have an adapter that changes the throat, did u buy sqrams veritas? He did the conversion


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

oabeieo said:


> 4594 isn't that a 1.4"exit on veritas horns? Not sure that will work unless you have an adapter that changes the throat, did u buy sqrams veritas? He did the conversion


I bought them from nextproject and the only reason I considered them was because of the 1.4" adapters he mentioned. I've had 3 of the BMS 4594 on the shelf but didn't get the idea to use them until I saw the Veritas horn classified with the 1.4" adapter. Not sure how well they'll work but I really love that CD and I'm hoping the horn does them some justice. If not, I will have gained some experience and knowledge anyway. And if they do sound good, I'll be in car audio heaven if they are anything like my JTR 212 speakers.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dgage said:


> I bought them from nextproject and the only reason I considered them was because of the 1.4" adapters he mentioned. I've had 3 of the BMS 4594 on the shelf but didn't get the idea to use them until I saw the Veritas horn classified with the 1.4" adapter. Not sure how well they'll work but I really love that CD and I'm hoping the horn does them some justice. If not, I will have gained some experience and knowledge anyway. And if they do sound good, I'll be in car audio heaven if they are anything like my JTR 212 speakers.


If you have adapters it should work, 
I think we all have had that urge to get the horn to dig deep however with some of the midranges available , I've found my cloud crossed in the teen kHz area. And 1" exit get you to 20k without all the break up modes.

Erin was talking about the truextant diaphragm, I saw a cut n pasted order sheet on DIY, would love to see what they have as far as replacement diaphs these days . Always wondered if a Be option is out there for an annular ring cd .


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

oabeieo said:


> If you have adapters it should work,
> I think we all have had that urge to get the horn to dig deep however with some of the midranges available , I've found my cloud crossed in the teen kHz area. And 1" exit get you to 20k without all the break up modes.
> 
> Erin was talking about the truextant diaphragm, I saw a cut n pasted order sheet on DIY, would love to see what they have as far as replacement diaphs these days . Always wondered if a Be option is out there for an annular ring cd .


With the adapters, it will definitely work TECHNICALLY. Whether that results in good sound/even response is a completely different matter due to the complexity of horns, which I am most definitely not an expert. The BMS 4594 coax CD is definitely high quality at $700 list each but that doesn't necessarily mean it will automatically make a great sounding horn in the car. But for around $200, I thought it was worth a shot. I can even install the horns along with a tweet/mid in the A pillar area to see which I like better. I have Illusion C8s for the doors although I'm considering picking up a pair of Dynaudio MW182 instead. Probably going to go with a pair of AE SBP15s for an IB install.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

dgage said:


> With the adapters, it will definitely work TECHNICALLY. Whether that results in good sound/even response is a completely different matter due to the complexity of horns, which I am most definitely not an expert. The BMS 4594 coax CD is definitely high quality at $700 list each but that doesn't necessarily mean it will automatically make a great sounding horn in the car. But for around $200, I thought it was worth a shot. I can even install the horns along with a tweet/mid in the A pillar area to see which I like better. I have Illusion C8s for the doors although I'm considering picking up a pair of Dynaudio MW182 instead. Probably going to go with a pair of AE SBP15s for an IB install.


It will sound good. Again, just seems like a lot of driver for a horn that's size can't use all the range the driver can produce. Yeah it's a co-ax , I've never played with those so I guess you'll have to tell us how it sounds.

You'll like it better than the a pillars. By a lot I presume.

I used a mw182 set with horns, loved loved the 50-100hz responce but the midbass and midrange was a poor match for a cd. Have you thought about a 8g40 or a 2118h or something more fitting in sensitivity ?


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

If you take a compression driver with a 1.4" exit, and you use an adapter to reduce that to 1", you're going to get reflections back down the throat. That'll sound really nasty IMHO. It's basically a recipe for High Order Modes.

John Janowitz really knows his stuff, and he's using an 18 Sound 1.4" horn, as detailed in my thread here: JBL M2 for The Poors - Page 42 - diyAudio

It's an inexpensive unit, about $100. John is the owner of Acoustic Elegance.


----------

