# Who are the "heavy hitters" now?



## pimpndahoz (Dec 11, 2011)

So who's got the top SQ systems now?? Who's car is a must hear and have you heard it? I don't think if it's in a garage collecting dust it counts, it should be relevant today. I'll go first. 

1. Scott Buwalda - HAT/240SX no, I haven't heard it.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Mark Elderidge -Nascar
Steve Cook
Matt Roberts Truck and Murano
Kirk Proffit
Todd Luliak's GTi
Jim Becker
Fred Lynch's Saturn
Brian Mitchell's Cruze
Vince Miranda's Scion
Steve Head
Jorge Delgado

in the past 4 years or so, Ive heard less and less really bad cars and more and more better cars.
The one's I have listed are those that are consistently very good.
But 

everyone has been improving and making steady progress. The differences between the top cars and those below it is shrinking at a very rapid rate.

also, I hesitate to ever pass judgement on a vehicle I hear until I hear it more than once in a different setting.
People have bad days. Ive heard Mark Elderidge's 4-runner on a very bad day of 48hrs of non stop fatigued tuning before, so it happens to everyone.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Mic basically nailed it. I don't know if Robert Petty competes anymore. Larry Woolacott is also a big name in IASCA, along with another HAT car I think.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Eldridge and Steve Cook have set the bar for me. Both in their own respect. And not only are their car stereo systems unreal but they are incredibly nice guys. I honestly feel happy to call them friends. 

Then there's Todd Luliak. His car gave me goosebumps last year. And having him to bounce ideas off is a great resource. 

Kirks car is what got me in to this hobby. The first time I heard it I was left amazed. Four years later and I'm still as hungry as ever. I haven't heard it in a while but I don't need to to know its great. 


And as Mic said, there are many cars that sound incredible. That fact has really driven me to try to pursue other options and think outside of the box to step my own game up.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

What about Biggs? He and Mark just great guys with amazing talent.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

RNBRAD said:


> What about Biggs? He and Mark just great guys with amazing talent.


Biggs doesnt compete anymore. He's a rep now. I think he sold the Buick too


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Mic10is said:


> Biggs doesnt compete anymore. He's a rep now. I think he sold the Buick too


Sold the Buick? I can't imagine. I never thought he would ever part with that car. Must of been a hefty offer.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Does Eldridge still use horns?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Does Eldridge still use horns?


no, its a phased array
pairs of 5.25 mids and tweeters
L C and R


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I thought it was 6.5s.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Mic any info on Todd Luliak's GTi? - Never mind it's Highly's GTI.. Duh..


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Thank u mic for a very nice compliment. All those guys on the list have a deep commitment to bringing the best they can every time they compete. A lot of those guys have become my friends over the years On a side note I thought mark was using 6.5" mids in his array? Not that Mark couldn't make 5.25's sound awesome


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I thought it was 6.5s.





BigRed said:


> Thank u mic for a very nice compliment. All those guys on the list have a deep commitment to bringing the best they can every time they compete. A lot of those guys have become my friends over the years On a side note I thought mark was using 6.5" mids in his array? Not that Mark couldn't make 5.25's sound awesome


eh, maybe it is 6.5s. for some reason I keep thinking its 5s bc I bought the same 5s bc he had them didnt use them, but got them:laugh:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yep. 6.5's. I only know for sure because I talked to him about it two days ago. Dude is great to bounce ideas off. Nearly everything you can think of trying he's either help design in his career or used in his car. There's not much he doesn't have first hand experience with. Saves me a lot of time. Lol.


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

No one considering center drive cars? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dFXSAyabBM&feature=youtube_gdata_player 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

The Performer said:


> No one considering center drive cars?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dFXSAyabBM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


you'd have to actively start competing again to be considered

and if you do bring the civic out again--bring all the other center drive cars that were promised when pretty much every organization changed its classes to accommodate the center seat threat


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Could we combine and complete the list above with their build thread if available? I have seen Highly's (and still think to many people have missed it, it has less views than my own build thread! That ain't right!) And I have seen Kirk's I think? But you guys know better who is who.

Oh yeah, I know I have seen Matt Robert's truck as well.


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

Mic10is said:


> you'd have to actively start competing again to be considered
> 
> and if you do bring the civic out again--bring all the other center drive cars that were promised when pretty much every organization changed its classes to accommodate the center seat threat


Its not mine lol. Just wondering why it wasn't considered as an excellent sounding car?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## s4k4zulu (Mar 2, 2010)

guess i need to move out of the north east to hear all this cars!!


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Six years ago I heard Kirk Proffits car and that's what really got me into sq. Also what got me into making the best out of stock locations. I keep trying to get him to listen to my truck to give feedback but he only seems to listen to Erins car at the g2g's for some reason.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I honestly don't think he's ever listened to my car at a GTG or any other event for that matter unless he's judging. The only time I remember Kirk listening to my car when not judging is when I got him to give me some pointers before Finals in 2010.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Mic, since you are too humble to toot your own horn ill do it for you. The BMW IS was what got me back into this hobby. The demo you gave me showed me what could be done accomplished, that car was awesome before you gutted it, absolutely awesome and it's still a benchmark for me when I think about what it did and how it sounded.
Jorge's car is the best kept secret in SQ and it doesn't get it's due. That car showed me things I didn't think we're possible without rebuilding the entire front end.


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

We need links to these cars if there is bud logs on here . I recognize names but not able to put them all with user names. 

And definitely seems to be that all the best cars have great guys building them. I know When I met Biggs in 2002 or so I was just young installer roaming around at the iasca nationals. He uncovered the car and was super nice to us. We were just average spectators but got the royal treatment.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

A lot of them aren't on here or don't frequent if they are members


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

But it would be a shame to miss those that are! I'll start with what I know (or think I do )

Todd Luliak's GTi - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/116323-highlys-mk4-vw-gti-2011-comp-build.html
Matt Roberts Truck? - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck-11.html (good pictures further in the build thread)
Kirk Proffit - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/119229-2005-acura-tl-de-construction-re-construction.html and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/127906-2005-acura-tl-part-2-a.html
Mic - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/63791-bmw-version-2-1-a.html (pictures seem to be missing) and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/66907-bmw-install-version-2-5-a.html
Scott Buwalda - Scott Buwalda's Nissan Silvia Spec. GT-R - YouTube (if anyone has a better link please post)


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Jorge Delgado, is it doitor?


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## pimpndahoz (Dec 11, 2011)

Yep, I'm having a hard time trying to do searches for these people so I can see their car.


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## pimpndahoz (Dec 11, 2011)

Wesayso said:


> But it would be a shame to miss those that are! I'll start with what I know (or think I do )
> 
> Todd Luliak's GTi - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/116323-highlys-mk4-vw-gti-2011-comp-build.html
> Matt Roberts Truck? - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck-11.html (good pictures further in the build thread)
> ...


Perfect, that's helpful, thank you


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

Thank u!!!!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Wesayso said:


> Jorge Delgado, is it doitor?


Jorge has a Charger, I don't think he's doitor


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

nope. not the same guy.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

bikinpunk said:


> nope. not the same guy.


You have a great buildlog, any votes for Bikin's Car? You get my vote for all the contributions allready but I haven't heard your car...

And how about The Magic Bus? Jon has a great write up and lot's of build pictures.
And a vote for Joakim Skovlund - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/76199-bmw-e34-touring-mosconi-odr-norwegian-sq-car.html EMMA champion and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEpJYZobTcw&feature=youtu.be (don't understand it but it was fun to watch)
Sadly I haven't heard any of them...


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Scott's car is nuts!!! Have to agree on the 602's, best 2 channel car amps ever made. Love the switched opague glass cases. Seeing more of that technology in upper end merecedes sky lights etc. Also in hospital medical units. Car is controlled through push button screen seems ergonomically challenged. Scott where's the voice control for this?


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I have to add in Todd Crowder and John Sketoe


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Here's my black 260SX: Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat! 

Highest score ever achieved in IASCA history (996.5 points), 2-time Expert division champion.

This car is assembled and "ready."

And here's my G35: Nobody Beats Hybrid

Highest combined SQC and IQC score of 2011 IASCA INAC Finals and highest combined SQC score of 2012 IASCA INAC Finals. 4-time Expert division champion.

This car will be at CES Vegas January 8-11 2013 in IASCA's booth...all are invited to come take a listen!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The only people in car audio who think the Magic Bus is the shizzle have a vested interest in the van. You'll never see it in the same place that other cars are at.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No. Jorge's screen name is Hemimadness. He's a good friend of Steve Head.





Wesayso said:


> Jorge Delgado, is it doitor?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Mic10is said:


> Biggs doesnt compete anymore. He's a rep now. I think he sold the Buick too


He told me a couple weeks ago he still has the Buick


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I heard Larry's Buick at finals. Can't forget Sketoe's grand national which he sold but will still be competing, same with Scott's G35.

I have the pleasure of having listened to Todd's GTi a few times since he lives close to me. Certainly one of the top cars in competition today. I haven't heard some of the other big ones like Eldridge's or Matt Robert's and some of the others yet.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Jorge Delgado - Team Arc Audio and lives in Florida

Doitor - is also Jorge but lives in Mexico


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> The only people in car audio who think the Magic Bus is the shizzle have a vested interest in the van. You'll never see it in the same place that other cars are at.


I have never heard his van, but that is a bit harsh, isn't it? So if someone doesn't compete he can't have the best sounding vehicle? And I believe john has been to several GTG's with Don Gibson and others. Does Anthony have a vested interest, because he did a whole video about it. 

I have heard Eldridge and Wayne Watkins has been around a while and ive heard his, as well as the luxus and sketoe's car. Also chris pate's civic. I hope to hear John's van and Scott's cars one day!


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Here's my black 260SX: Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat!
> 
> Highest score ever achieved in IASCA history (996.5 points), 2-time Expert division champion.
> 
> ...


Me and my girlfriend listened to the g35 at mera and it was a good listen you guys did some good work on that car. The peeps at the hybrid booth gave us some cool info and t shirts (which made the girlfriends day). Can't remember who gave us the demo but we were glad to get to hear everyones cars. Did anyone get to listen to the black tundra decked out with the illusion products? That was one of our builds at the event.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i remember listening to a old acura integra back in uh...97? 98? with some ID horns and midbass, and some IDQs...that got me into SQ away from my regular cab pick up with 25 speakers. lol but i cant remember that guys name...some loser with "Moderator/Co-editor" in his signature all the time, and always called him self tehguru

what a loser


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

simplicityinsound said:


> i remember listening to a old acura integra back in uh...97? 98? with some ID horns and midbass, and some IDQs...that got me into SQ away from my regular cab pick up with 25 speakers. lol but i cant remember that guys name...some loser with "Moderator/Co-editor" in his signature all the time, and always called him self tehguru
> 
> what a loser


coulda have been me, bc I didnt have my Integra til 99


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> coulda have been me, bc I didnt have my Integra til 99


99 then...getting senile in my old age so my college years were a blur lol


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Ant doesn't know car audio, he knows how to make money.

It's the best car when you are the only car or only good car people have heard.



Niebur3 said:


> I have never heard his van, but that is a bit harsh, isn't it? So if someone doesn't compete he can't have the best sounding vehicle? And I believe john has been to several GTG's with Don Gibson and others. Does Anthony have a vested interest, because he did a whole video about it.
> 
> I have heard Eldridge and Wayne Watkins has been around a while and ive heard his, as well as the luxus and sketoe's car. Also chris pate's civic. I hope to hear John's van and Scott's cars one day!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And the van doesn't make it east of the rockies.

And if you are the world's best, you should be handing people their asses in a competition. If not in the sanctioned event, but in a Top 30 round judged on different music. Why not have some legit titles to back up the claim, rather than an editor of a home audiofool magazine's opinion?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Ant doesn't know car audio, he knows how to make money.
> 
> It's the best car when you are the only car or only good car people have heard.


... Or you need a good advertising blurb.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Here is a link to my build if anybody is interested
http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24069


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

Testimonials from those who have no vested interest in the Magic Bus:

Title: "Earl Zausmer Listens to the Magic Bus"
Duration: 1'22"
Link: Earl Zausmer listens to the Magic Bus - YouTube

Title: "ANT Listens to the Magic Bus"
Duration: 4'54"
Link: ANT listens to Magic Bus.MOV - YouTube

Title: "Dan Brooks and Alan Clark Listen to the Magic Bus"
Duration: 4'49"
Link: Magic Bus Listening Experience - YouTube

Title: "Brian Levy Listens to the Magic Bus"
Duration: 1'08"
Link: Brian Levy listens to Magic Bus.MOV - YouTube

Written testimonials:

_Perfection on Wheels_ 
*-- Earl Zausmer / mobile audio legend*

_I must say that I wasn’t overly enthusiastic about listening to Jon Whitledge’s van; such systems tend to be demonstrated at hearing-damaging levels, and attempt to impress with sheer sound-pressure level rather than audiophile criteria such as soundstaging, detail resolution, and naturalness of timbre. Nonetheless, I was intrigued after hearing about the system’s extraordinary design and execution.

I’m glad I put my prejudices aside, because listening to Jon Whitledge’s Magic Bus was a revelatory experience. Sitting in the driver’s seat with my portable CD case, I played one familiar reference disc after another. For starters, the system was extremely smooth and well balanced tonally. The treble didn’t exhibit the hyped metallic sound so often heard in cars, and the midrange had a richness of tone color that gave instruments and voices a real sense of body.

What really floored me, however, was the system’s ability to create a three-dimensional soundstage in front of me. It was like sitting down between a pair of well set up loudspeakers in a room. Despite sitting far off axis in the driver’s seat, the soundstage was perfectly symmetrical, with depth and layering that were extraordinary. Listening to Rutter’s Requiem produced a startling sense of disconnect; the soundstage extended far in front of the windshield, with every instrument perfectly positioned and proportioned. The illusion of pinpoint images, surrounded by an expansive acoustic, was outstanding even by home-audio standards.

The bass was fabulous in many respects: pitch definition, extension, dynamics, and the ability to play loudly without strain. Kick drum was taut, punchy, and tight, with no sense of slowness or overhang. Moreover, the bottom end, reproduced by enormous bass cabinets in the van’s cargo area, blended seamlessly with the midrange and treble drivers located in front of the listener.  

The Magic Bus sounded like a high-end home system -- and a very good one at that._

*-- Robert Harley, Editor-in-Chief, the abso!ute sound®, Issue 188, Dec '08.*

After the Magic Bus was finished, Robert Harley heard it at T.H.E. Show Newport and had this to say ...

_Jon Whitledge showed the latest incarnation of his "Magic Bus", a van that houses what I called "The world's best car stereo" when i heard it five years agao. Since then, Whitledge has taken the system to an entirely new level of performance. The design, construction, passion, and dedication that went into the Magic Bus are unprecedented, and it showed in the sound quality. The system had effortless dynamics, very high resolution of low-level detail, and tremendous timbral fidelity, throwing a soundstage that rivaled that of a well-set-up home system. _
*-- Robert Harley / Editor-in-Chief / the abso!ute sound®, Issue 215, Sept '11.*

_The Magic Bus by Jon Whitledge defines a new standard for mobile audio. I had the pleasure, via my company Straight Wire, of being involved with many of the top sound quality competition and demonstration vehicles since the mid 90’s. The Magic Bus is a testament to Jon Whitledge’s vision and great efforts to produce a moveable high end aural experience that will captivate all who have the pleasure to listen._
*-- Steven Hill / President / Straight Wire*

_JON WHITLEDGE has put together a Mobile Audio Concert Hall that surpasses any such car- or van-housed sonic enclave I've experienced previously. The interior architecture of Jon's design is gorgeous. His sound is unimaginably ferocious, detailed, and engaging. I suspect it takes a sort of genius of commitment to such work -- or an absolute nut case obsessively devoted to mobile music fidelity -- to craft such a peripatetic audiophile carnival. With Jon Whitledge's art it makes no difference whatsoever, since once you step inside his hyper-emotional world (with its daring musical insulation from earth's madness) you, too, become an audio nut happily removed from anything that does not romp and sing or rock and roll._
* -- Jim Merod / Writer & Reviewer / Positive Feedback & Enjoy The Music*

_Absolutely phenomenal - both in terms of the result, and also the fantastic amount of work he has put into it. His ‘Magic Bus’ audio van is far and away the highest-performance audio system I have ever heard on wheels, but more importantly, it rivals the best home systems in many ways. _
*-- Steve McCormack / Designer / SMc Audio *

Recently, after a Fourplay concert, Nathan East listened to, and autographed, the Magic Bus. Nathan was so blown away by its sound quality, he ran inside the venue and invited his recording engineer, Ken Freeman, to hear the Magic Bus after a Fourplay concert. Ken thought the Magic Bus sounded as good as a studio.

You cannot doubt anything about the Magic Bus without having seen or heard it. Rather than continue with needless and inappropriate cynicism, why don't you come to CES with an open mind and listen to the Magic Bus and GRAMMY award-winning producer, and guitar virtuoso, Larry Mitchell, playing through it?


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

This bus sounds very intriguing to me. Jon, what music format are you using?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Why don't you bring it to somewhere the other car audio people will be at? Like I said, you don't make it much past the Rocky Mountains.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And I'm not saying it doesn't sound good...or really really good. But billing it as the world's best, that's where my rub is at. Get those same people to listen to the other peer considered bests, and then see who comes out on top. You have a van that is considered the world's best by people who have never heard the others out there. That doesn't mean a lot or hold a lot of weight, and frankly a big middle finger to others considering you won't be in the same place at any given time to the other cars.

Maybe Mark and Scott will have their cars at CES so you can have the same people listen to other things and make their minds up.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

BigRed said:


> Here is a link to my build if anybody is interested
> New Hybrid Speaker Build - DIYMA Car Audio Forum


I had your car in mind too but don't know if you were up in the previous list as I don't know your real name :blush:.

Are you Jim Becker?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Though I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I were lucky enough to be in Jon's shoes.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Jon, I will be coming by for a demo, and would prefer doors closed with reference material, if that's an option.

I could also put my G35 up next to your bus for a direct A to B comparison; it has a very simple OEM-style installation. Not sure if you have room where you are located but I am game if you are.


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## pimpndahoz (Dec 11, 2011)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Here's my black 260SX: Welcome to the Buwalda Hybrids International Website - Home of the Triple Threat!
> 
> Highest score ever achieved in IASCA history (996.5 points), 2-time Expert division champion.
> 
> ...


Scott, thanks for the link on the G35 that's an awesome install and I know you must be especially proud to have done the majority of it yourself. I look forward to hearing it one day. I really don't think anyone can argue, you're a HEAVY HITTER dude! Thanks for all you do man..


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Wesayso said:


> I had your car in mind too but don't know if you were up in the previous list as I don't know your real name :blush:.
> 
> Are you Jim Becker?


Yes sir


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Great car... do you still run rear fill?


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

*Diary of a Mad Man: Scott E. Buwalda *


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Time for a new list...

Todd Luliak's GTi - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/116323-highlys-mk4-vw-gti-2011-comp-build.html
Matt Roberts Truck - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck-11.html (good pictures further in the build thread)
Kirk Proffit - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/119229-2005-acura-tl-de-construction-re-construction.html and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/127906-2005-acura-tl-part-2-a.html
Mic Wallace - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/63791-bmw-version-2-1-a.html (pictures seem to be missing) and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/66907-bmw-install-version-2-5-a.html
Scott Buwalda - Scott Buwalda's Nissan Silvia Spec. GT-R - YouTube, Scott Buwalda's Nissan Silvia Spec. GT-R (260SX) and Scott Buwalda's 2003 Infiniti G35
Jim Becker - Jim Becker's Big Red
Jon Whitledge - Jon Whitledge's The Magic Bus and Jon Whidledge SQ Frontstage Youtube
Joakim Skovlund - Bmw E34 Touring - Mosconi - ODR - Norwegian SQ-car EMMA champion (some pictures missing), Bmw E34 Touring Facebook Album (some of the missing pictures here) and Garasjen - Joakim Skovlund Youtube
Erin Hardison - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/21873-2006-civic-lx-sedan-build-thread.html (honorable mention)
Are there any more links? Any votes for Erin's car? Or does he need to hack up his dash first . I do notice a trend there .

You know what? This is my post so...


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Still hoping for this one to hit the lanes: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/122523-sq-riviera-build.html


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## cruzinbill (Jul 15, 2011)

8675309 said:


> I have to add in Todd Crowder and John Sketoe


Second this


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Wesayso said:


> Time for a new list...
> 
> Todd Luliak's GTi - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/116323-highlys-mk4-vw-gti-2011-comp-build.html
> Matt Roberts Truck - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck-11.html (good pictures further in the build thread)
> ...


Only one on there that I've never heard of, Joakim. I think Steve Cook deserves to be on there. He's certainly a force to be had in competition. 

In my inexperience opinion I think Erin falls in to the category of "best to not have won a title" (to borrow from the poker community). Only a matter of time though.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

pocket5s said:


> Only one on there that I've never heard of, Joakim. I think Steve Cook deserves to be on there. He's certainly a force to be had in competition.
> 
> In my inexperience opinion I think Erin falls in to the category of "best to not have won a title" (to borrow from the poker community). Only a matter of time though.


Joakim is a European, EMMA competition winner, has to count for something and an awesome build.

I only listed those that I can find a link to. Maybe I should add the others that were mentioned... see the first page.

Erin I put on there because he has been close a couple of times and he has been very generous in sharing with the driver testing and his own learning curve to master this hobby. I'm sure one day he'll get there. He mentioned using a couple of the big names as bouncing board for ideas. Who knows, maybe they let him spin in circles (lol).

Any more links? I like reading the build logs, ideas, do's and dont's and I am sure many others do too.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

*New list, if any one has links to more info please post...*

Mark Elderidge -Nascar
Steve Cook
Fred Lynch's Saturn
Brian Mitchell's Cruze
Vince Miranda's Scion
Steve Head
Jorge Delgado
Todd Crowder
John Sketoe
Todd Luliak's GTi - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/116323-highlys-mk4-vw-gti-2011-comp-build.html
Matt Roberts Truck - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck-11.html (good pictures further in the build thread)
Kirk Proffit - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/119229-2005-acura-tl-de-construction-re-construction.html and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/127906-2005-acura-tl-part-2-a.html
Mic Wallace - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/63791-bmw-version-2-1-a.html (pictures seem to be missing) and http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/66907-bmw-install-version-2-5-a.html
Scott Buwalda - Scott Buwalda's Nissan Silvia Spec. GT-R - YouTube, Scott Buwalda's Nissan Silvia Spec. GT-R (260SX) and Scott Buwalda's 2003 Infiniti G35
Jim Becker - Jim Becker's Big Red
Jon Whitledge - Jon Whitledge's The Magic Bus and Jon Whidledge SQ Frontstage Youtube
Joakim Skovlund - Bmw E34 Touring - Mosconi - ODR - Norwegian SQ-car EMMA champion (some pictures missing), Bmw E34 Touring Facebook Album (some of the missing pictures here) and Garasjen - Joakim Skovlund Youtube
Erin Hardison - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/21873-2006-civic-lx-sedan-build-thread.html (honorable mention)


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Gotta put forth Robolop......


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Does his car sound very good? That was the idea of this list I believe. I'll agree on build quality but that would mean we have to include all simplicityinsound build threads as well .


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Wesayso said:


> Does his car sound very good? That was the idea of this list I believe. I'll agree on build quality but that would mean we have to include all simplicityinsound build threads as well .


Honestly don't know..... but have considered him one of the "heavy hitters" per se :blush:

That said, it's your thread, and I'm glad of the consolidation of threads linking to great builds. Carry on


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I would have to agree. His builds are really cool, no doubt. When I think of a "heavy hitter" I guess my mind thinks of those that dominate competition in multiple years.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> I would have to agree. His builds are really cool, no doubt. When I think of a "heavy hitter" I guess my mind thinks of those that dominate competition in multiple years.


thats how I interpreted and answered the original question as well.

"Heavy Hitters"

To me are those that consistently place in the top in competition. They are the contenders, not the fillers.
All competitions are made up of legitimate contenders and fillers. Sometimes a filler may be a sleeper--but I think this post was more about the Known contenders.

So there are all sorts of cool builds all over the interwebz--but they havent competed or "proven" to be a contender for anything, unless this was a super cool awesome Install content.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: New list, if any one has links to more info please post...*



Wesayso said:


> Mark Elderidge -Nascar
> Steve Cook
> Fred Lynch's Saturn
> Brian Mitchell's Cruze
> ...




A recurring them in "self help" books is the idea that you have to model yourself after successful people. For instance, all the Tony Robbins books basically boil down to the idea that you need to meet successful people, then model yourself after them so that you can be successful too.

If we all agree that the stereos in the links above are successful, then it's interesting to note that nearly all of these guys are running wideband drivers. For instance, Matt lists a littany of wideband drivers like Jordans and Tangbands, and Mic is running the wideband drivers from the Thiel home speakers. (Re-branded by autophile IIRC)


I find all of this a bit amusing, since 80% of the people out there think that the path to audio nirvana requires low efficiency two-way component sets.

And of course, I'm a bit biased since I'm obsessed with Unity and Synergy horns, which basically approximate a single wide-bandwidth transducer, but with higher efficiency and power handling.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

*Re: New list, if any one has links to more info please post...*



Patrick Bateman said:


> A recurring them in "self help" books is the idea that you have to model yourself after successful people. For instance, all the Tony Robbins books basically boil down to the idea that you need to meet successful people, then model yourself after them so that you can be successful too.
> 
> If we all agree that the stereos in the links above are successful, then it's interesting to note that nearly all of these guys are running wideband drivers. For instance, Matt lists a littany of wideband drivers like Jordans and Tangbands, and Mic is running the wideband drivers from the Thiel home speakers. (Re-branded by autophile IIRC)
> 
> ...



sorry Buddy but I havent used the Thiel Coincidence drivers for many years, the year I did use them I finished 2nd at MECA Finals to Matt Roberts.:biggrinflip:
The following year I switched back to horns and won my 1st MECA Championship

When I won IASCA in 05 Finals, I used horns. 

The Thiels were an experiment to play with something new from a sponsor bc I wasnt actively competing at the time.
My Install log hasnt been updated in quite awhile--I'd dare say years.
:biggrinflip:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New list, if any one has links to more info please post...*



Patrick Bateman said:


> If we all agree that the stereos in the links above are successful, then it's interesting to note that nearly all of these guys are running wideband drivers.


I'm not trying to be a DBag but I do want to make a clarification here.
I think, at most, only a few in that list are running wideband. 2 in total and one doesn't really count since he's probably changed his install again already.

Are they running wideband drivers?
Mark Elderidge - Nope
Steve Cook - Maybe. He was at finals but has probably changed since then.
Fred Lynch's Saturn - Nope
Brian Mitchell's Cruze - Nope
Vince Miranda's Scion - (I don't know)
Steve Head - I think so
Jorge Delgado - Not as far as I know; unless something's changed
Todd Crowder - (I don't know)
John Sketoe - (I don't know)
Todd Luliak's GTi - Nope
Matt Roberts Truck - Yes. Last time I knew.
Kirk Proffit - Nope
Mic Wallace - Nope
Scott Buwalda - Nope
Jim Becker - Not that I'm aware.
Jon Whitledge - Nope
Joakim Skovlund - (I don't know)
Erin Hardison - no way


But, for the sake of argument if I assume the guys who I'm not sure of are indeed running wideband, that still only accounts for 8 out of 18 on this list. Definitely not "nearly all".


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Sketoe's Grand national had 6.5's in the kicks and 4 tweeters. 

Maybe it depends on one's definition of a wideband. I think most consider it tweeterless, but I could be wrong. 

Buwalda's G35 used widebands, the L3SE's, but the Silvia had 4's and tweeters last I read.

Jim Becker uses the Imagine 6.5 in a coax setup, so no wideband there.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'd consider wideband as tweeter less as well. Such as one driver that covers from about 300-500hz and the rest of the spectrum.

Anyway, I'm not looking to play semantics or argue off topic. I just wanted to note that only a few run wideband setups as most here would define it.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

*Re: New list, if any one has links to more info please post...*




bikinpunk said:


> I'm not trying to be a DBag but I do want to make a clarification here.
> I think, at most, only a few in that list are running wideband. 2 in total and one doesn't really count since he's probably changed his install again already.
> 
> Are they running wideband drivers?
> ...


No, not being a dbag at all, and I appreciate all the research that's gone into this thread.

I really *do* think that they only way to come up with a capable solution is to investigate what works. And the interesting thing about engineering is that the best solutions are often very fluid. For instance, I believe that the ubiquity of competent computer speakers has led to small drivers which offer incredible 'bang for the buck.' Tangband is a good example of this; many of their small offerings are a quantum leap beyond what was available twenty years ago. Another example of this is the fact that DB Keele used speakers designed for laptop computers in his arrays.

As for the definition of 'wideband', that's really subjective. Here are three front stages which I would consider 'wideband', and why:

1) Richard Clark Grand National - his horns were much larger than most, and the use of large format horns allowed a bandwidth of something like 500hz to 16khz. (five octaves)

2) Scott Buwalda - the small drivers up on the A-pillars cover something like 300hz to 20khz (a bit over six octaves)

3) I don't know the xover points of the Matt Roberts truck, but his list of drivers seems to indicate a preference for wideband drivers

Basically my definition of 'wideband' doesn't mean the use of a single full range driver. It means that the center piece of the sound system is a driver that covers a significant fraction of the audible bandwidth. I'd also include some arrays into the definition of 'wideband' as there are a select few which MEASURE as if they're a single driver. (Kef Uni-Q, unity horn, synergy horn, etc.) Anyone every heard the Dunlavy arrays? It's a five driver array that's something like six feet tall, and measures like one big full range driver that's nearly stretches to the ceiling. When you hear a system that gets this right, it's breathtaking.



I want to be really clear, I'm not saying that two-way components are hopeless. I'm saying that *I* personally find that getting a single driver to cover a wide bandwidth solves a lot of problems, and it's encouraging for me to see some of the most lauded cars seems to be designed by people who agree.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I honestly don't think he's ever listened to my car at a GTG or any other event for that matter unless he's judging. The only time I remember Kirk listening to my car when not judging is when I got him to give me some pointers before Finals in 2010.


Hmm you're most likely right. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else then?Lord knows I need all the help I can get and happy to get it. Can't deny I've come a long way since you first heard my system back in 09. You should hear it nowIt just seems like every time someone with great talant listens and gives me advice (and sometimes a tuning tweak) my personal bar moves up a couple more clicks. I know a few people remember my Sierra with the system I thought was "the ****" but turned out to be "****". Boy those were the days:surprised::blush:


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## pimpndahoz (Dec 11, 2011)

Ok, just to clarify, YES the original intent of the thread was who is or has been consistently dominating competitive events. These are who I call "heavy hitters". They are not easily knocked off the podium. They're installs are usually great but mostly in the sense that they go to the extreme to get the maximum SQ, not necessarily flashy in the trunk. These are the cars I'd like to read about and/or emulate for my own car. I also wanted a good list of "must hear" cars for future shows. Thanks for all the responses guys.

Gil


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I do think Patrick is on to something.. Looking through the list, almost every one is using a dedicated midrange driver to cover a large percentage of the spectrum, while not necessarily tweeterless. I definitely hear the benefits of this as opposed to a normal 2 way. While I'm certainly no veteran competitor compared to those on the list, I have been quite successful running wideband drivers as well and think it helps solve several problems.


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## audiguy (Jul 30, 2007)

I haven't competed for a couple of years, and I'm not on the list but when I did I won some things like this:

2008 Sound Results

using the Thiels from 300hz and up in the kicks of my Blue Audi so that supports your wideband argument. I am all about time and phase coherence.

I would also like to weigh in on the Van you guys are arguing about. As someone who competed in the east and has been out west and heard the van, though the sub might be the best ever, the overall sound is fairly mediocre.

And you should probably add Steve Cook to the list.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Steve's on the list. 

As far as wideband drivers, I'd rather have a good polar response using multiple drivers than a point source and poor off axis response (which all drivers exhibit at some point).


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> Biggs doesnt compete anymore. He's a rep now. I think he sold the Buick too


I just saw on Ebay last week one of the liquid-cooled Solo 18's from the Buick that Gary himself was selling. He had a few other neat things on there too.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Steve's on the list.
> 
> As far as wideband drivers, I'd rather have a good polar response using multiple drivers than a point source and poor off axis response (which all drivers exhibit at some point).


Perhaps, but when you can have them on axis, like in your install, why not have both?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

strakele said:


> Perhaps, but when you can have them on axis, like in your install, why not have both?


That's the thing. You can't have both.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Steve's on the list.
> 
> As far as wideband drivers, I'd rather have a good polar response using multiple drivers than a point source and poor off axis response (which all drivers exhibit at some point).


My definition of "good polar response" is when the response shape on-axis is similar in shape as the off axis. IE, the SPL doesn't have to be identical, but I don't want to see any crazy peaks and dips if I move my head 4" one way or another.

The thing that's interesting to me is that there isn't a two-way component set in the world that can satisfy this requirement unless it does two things:

1) the high frequency driver and low frequency driver need to be less than one half wavelength away from each other at the xover point. For instance, with a 2khz crossover the mid and tweet need to be less than 8.5cm away from each other.
If you crunch the numbers, you'll notice the gap widens quite a bit with a low xover point. Drop that xover to 500hz and you can get good polar response even if the drivers are 34cm apart!

2) the crossover needs to be phase coherent. Which generally means "6db/octave"

Even linkwitz is coming around. His new speakers do not use linkwitz Reilly crossovers for the tweeter.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Patrick, still waiting for the thread where you come up with an idea to (re)create Summa's for in the Car .


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> That's the thing. You can't have both.


Right.. My statement wasn't as clear as it should have been. I meant, in an install where you have drivers on axis so that polar response isn't vital, why not go for wide bandwidth?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

But what I'm saying is that polar response is vital. At least to me. 

And wide bandwidth to me is more than a driver extending to 10khz but inly on axis. I am talking about a speaker system that retains a very good off axis response and is t beaming to the point that you essentially have zero output off axis RELATIVE to the on axis (which negates drivers with a boosted high end trying to make up for a roll off; off axis will still suffer relative to on axis). This means both at the crossover and beyond a typical mid/tweet crossover. You have to have a tweeter, or horn as Patrick as nothing, that will allow for response in every axis. Tweeters themselves will beam at some point and will also have a suffering off axis performance but much less so than a system with a single driver running "full range" would. Waveguides will help this immensely but are not the same as a horn (however for the car audio crowd they kind of are one in the same in usage). 

There are serious benefits to this. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that a system that doesn't meet my personal criterion can't sound good. That's not what I'm trying to do.


Edited for clarity.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

What I'm reading is there are trade-offs. U can't get something without giving away something else. Pick your poison baby!!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Since the list seems to be pretty well established and the topic has already veered...

Something that I think is interesting with all of this "wideband" talk is the new compromise it doesn't need to be tweeterless (or even if it is, its ok to be at/past the point of beaming). 

The examples of a single driver playing 5-6 octaves...I run my JBL 660gti's from 63-3.15khz. That is over 5.5 octaves by my count, so am I running a "wideband" too. Sure the speaker is beaming at the XO, and I'm using a tweeter, but neither of those things seem to matter anymore. 

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people modifying the meaning of wideband, I didn't coin it, but I think it's a bit convenient in the same vein. It gets to a point where nearly any 2-way system meets the wideband definition.


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## Haystak88 (Dec 5, 2012)

My favorite was always Mr. Slim out of South Carolina. Saw him a few times at the Daytona show. That escalade was amazing, in my opinion.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Wesayso said:


> But it would be a shame to miss those that are! I'll start with what I know (or think I do )
> 
> Todd Luliak's GTi - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/116323-highlys-mk4-vw-gti-2011-comp-build.html
> Matt Roberts Truck? - http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck-11.html (good pictures further in the build thread)
> ...


Thanks to you, I found this... Now I know why he wins so many times - he knows how a drum or a cymbal should sound  

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Jon, I will be coming by for a demo, and would prefer doors closed with reference material, if that's an option.
> 
> I could also put my G35 up next to your bus for a direct A to B comparison; it has a very simple OEM-style installation. Not sure if you have room where you are located but I am game if you are.


I was waiting for a reply to ^ this  

Kelvin


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> Thanks to you, I found this... Now I know why he wins so many times - he knows how a drum or a cymbal should sound
> 
> Kelvin


Now you know what to do .


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

BigRed said:


> What I'm reading is there are trade-offs. U can't get something without giving away something else. Pick your poison baby!!


Basically this. ^^


I don't think the 'wideband' definition should just be used to describe any speaker playing more than 4 octaves, but I also don't think it only applies to a tweeterless install. For example, a few companies like Audible Physics and HAT have 6" speakers that they say will play much higher than your typical 6" speaker. They don't recommend using them tweeterless, but if you have a speaker like that playing 63Hz to 5KHz+, I'd say that's wideband...


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## cAsE sEnSiTiVe (Jun 24, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> I was waiting for a reply to ^ this
> 
> Kelvin


co-sign...


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

strakele said:


> Basically this.
> 
> 
> I don't think the 'wideband' definition should just be used to describe any speaker playing more than 4 octaves, but I also don't think it only applies to a tweeterless install. For example, a few companies like Audible Physics and HAT have 6" speakers that they say will play much higher than your typical 6" speaker. They don't recommend using them tweeterless, but if you have a speaker like that playing 63Hz to 5KHz+, I'd say that's wideband...


That's a very valid point. I know of one install with L6SE's that run up to about 7khz. 

Joe Wallis (SQAudi I think) said he ran his L8SE's up to 2.5k or something like that. Then there is Matt Robert's wife's Murano that had some 8" in the dash that ran all the way up IIRC. That build is on this site somewhere...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

strakele said:


> Basically this. ^^
> 
> 
> I don't think the 'wideband' definition should just be used to describe any speaker playing more than 4 octaves, but I also don't think it only applies to a tweeterless install. For example, a few companies like Audible Physics and HAT have 6" speakers that they say will play much higher than your typical 6" speaker. They don't recommend using them tweeterless, but if you have a speaker like that playing 63Hz to 5KHz+, I'd say that's wideband...


What you heard in my truck a couple months ago sounds like poopoo compared to the highly refined Arian running 63-5k. I split the vocal range between the Souls and x2's because I had to, not by choice. The Souls weren't that great above 2khz imo. Even Jason was talking about how certain things he liked better with the Arians running up to 5k and beyond (6.3khz maybe?) then letting the Morels take over from there. Something else, with pillar pods and anything mounted in the vicinity of the dash and windshield is gonna cause problems even with a dashmat. You and Ally both know my feelings about how a dashmat or even thick ocf if you can make it look decent could help your installs. Keeping as much material away from the dash and windshield with only the upper tweeter frequencies up there to bring the stage up in my opinion has more positives than negatives. For that reason I've always preferred the sound of midranges mounted in the kicks. The sound you get in car audio is a whole flustercluck of reflections regardless of driver locations. Some locations are just plain worse than others


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

pocket5s said:


> Then there is Matt Robert's wife's Murano that had some 8" in the dash that ran all the way up IIRC. That build is on this site somewhere...


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...602-nissan-murano-my-new-comp-family-car.html


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

how about we just define 'wideband' as anything whose crossover point extends beyond the point of speed of sound/driver size. in the case of a 4" wideband, that would be the driver plays beyond about 3375. if you cross your 4" at 8khz, then you're using it in a wideband _application_. that's not where beaming really starts but it's a good enough point for the sake of argument. sound reasonable?


so, we have 'wideband' and we have 'fullrange'. I'd consider full range a driver that is meant to cover from around 200-300 and the rest of the band. some 'fullrange' drivers are intended to cover the entire audio spectrum but very few are like that. most full range drivers are in the 2-4" variety. 


still... I don't like the premise of either and, again, polar response in the reason.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> Then there is Matt Robert's wife's Murano that had some 8" in the dash that ran all the way up IIRC. That build is on this site somewhere...


IIRC Matts Murano runs point source drivers in the dash, not really a full range driver.


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

strakele said:


> I do think Patrick is on to something.. Looking through the list, almost every one is using a dedicated midrange driver to cover a large percentage of the spectrum, while not necessarily tweeterless. I definitely hear the benefits of this as opposed to a normal 2 way. While I'm certainly no veteran competitor compared to those on the list, I have been quite successful running wideband drivers as well and think it helps solve several problems.


While I won't say that your widebanders are inferior (not in the slightest), or they don't sound great (they do), or shouldn't be run as widebanders, or anything of the sort, you can't deny that you would still benefit greatly from adding a dedicated tweeter. I'm probably going to get an earful from you later for this, but hey... just my $.02. 

*IMHO* I think widebanders are more suited to daily driving music rather than SQ. I don't recall any that I've heard that really have that "sparkle" that makes a song come to life. Maybe they can, perhaps I just haven't heard the right cars, that wouldn't surprise me. Then again, I'm probably in the minority that can still even hope to hear it at all anyway. 

But as others have said earlier, it's always a compromise. 



Hillbilly SQ said:


> What you heard in my truck a couple months ago sounds like poopoo compared to the highly refined Arian running 63-5k. I split the vocal range between the Souls and x2's because I had to, not by choice. The Souls weren't that great above 2khz imo. Even Jason was talking about how certain things he liked better with the Arians running up to 5k and beyond (6.3khz maybe?) then letting the Morels take over from there. Something else, with pillar pods and anything mounted in the vicinity of the dash and windshield is gonna cause problems even with a dashmat. You and Ally both know my feelings about how a dashmat or even thick ocf if you can make it look decent could help your installs. Keeping as much material away from the dash and windshield with only the upper tweeter frequencies up there to bring the stage up in my opinion has more positives than negatives. For that reason I've always preferred the sound of midranges mounted in the kicks. The sound you get in car audio is a whole flustercluck of reflections regardless of driver locations. Some locations are just plain worse than others


I added a dashmat not too long ago. It made a noticeable difference, but there are still a small amount of reflections that I haven't been able to remedy yet. Probably install related. I really do not believe it is the drivers' fault. They cleaned up very nicely after the mat and I've had them run well over 2k.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

millerlyte said:


> Then again, I'm probably in the minority that can still even hope to hear it at all anyway.


When I was a toddler my dad rode me around on his rear engine Snapper riding mower WITHOUT EARPLUGS. Then I rode it solo from age seven up to my teenage years logging hundreds of hours. Still no earplugs and that thing was LOUD. Then there was the muzzle loader blast you already know about, then a plethora of other things over the years. That would explain my obsession with tonality. My hearing can't be trusted for l/r imaging.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

chefhow said:


> IIRC Matts Murano runs point source drivers in the dash, not really a full range driver.


the description is full range 

Tang Band W8-1808 8" Neodymium Full Range Driver 264-894


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah unless he changed, they were full range drivers.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Wesayso said:


> Patrick, still waiting for the thread where you come up with an idea to (re)create Summa's for in the Car .


I don't think it would work in a car, because the center-to-center spacing is too great. There's a 38cm gap between the woofer and the tweeter, and due to that, they really sound a lot better in a big room.

The only way it would be 'do-able' in a car is if you shrunk the midbass down to something like 10cm, and then used a 10cm waveguide. But at these sizes, you'd lose a lot of the advantages of the waveguide, because it would lose directivity by 3400hz.

That's why most of my designs cram a full range or something which *approximates* a full range into a corner, then use that corner to form the waveguide.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

pionkej said:


> Since the list seems to be pretty well established and the topic has already veered...
> 
> Something that I think is interesting with all of this "wideband" talk is the new compromise it doesn't need to be tweeterless (or even if it is, its ok to be at/past the point of beaming).
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree with this, and that's why I always have an eye on something which *approximates* a full-range.

For instance, here are three solutions to the same problem:


solution 1: a full range like the TangBand in the Murano.
This is an easy solution, but as noted, it's going to beam at high frequencies. One solution to the beaming problem is to cram it as tightly in the corner as humanly possible. When you do that, the corner acts as a waveguide, and basically controls directivity over most of the speakers bandwidth. *It would control the speaker over *all* of it's bandwidth if the driver was infinitely small.*

solution 2: approximate a full range.
This is done by using multiple drivers, and packing them so tightly together that their crossover points are within one-quarter wavelength. For instance, in my Unity horns which I love to build the midrange and high frequencies emanate from a point in space that's the size of a golf ball.
Another way to do this is with conventional arrays with a low crossover point. For instance, if you do a D'Appolito MTM with 5cm woofers and 5cm center to center spacing, you can use a 1700hz xover and all the drivers with virtually act as one. *Obviously this trick works a lot better with very small midranges for very big tweeters, or both.*
















The Snell Expanding Array is a good example of approximating a full range, and also the Dunlavy speakers.

It's funny that the Dunlavy and Snell speakers are so humongous, and yet they approximate a full range. I've heard line arrays and I've heard speakers that approximate a full range, and it's interesting how the latter have the ability to make the soundstage sound both small *and* large, whereas the former bloats everything to a huge degree.

solution 3: conventional two-way, with mids and tweets seperated by more than one wl at the xover frequency
ummmm, i simply don't think this works.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I don't think it would work in a car, because the center-to-center spacing is too great. There's a 38cm gap between the woofer and the tweeter, and due to that, they really sound a lot better in a big room.
> 
> The only way it would be 'do-able' in a car is if you shrunk the midbass down to something like 10cm, and then used a 10cm waveguide. But at these sizes, you'd lose a lot of the advantages of the waveguide, because it would lose directivity by 3400hz.
> 
> That's why most of my designs cram a full range or something which *approximates* a full range into a corner, then use that corner to form the waveguide.


Kef's coax Q100 should come close... tweeter in a waveguide the size of the mid 
Tweeter responce according to Zaph:








Link: http://www.zaphaudio.com/blog.html


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Been thinking unity/synergy again on another forum...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Wesayso said:


> Kef's coax Q100 should come close... tweeter in a waveguide the size of the mid
> Tweeter responce according to Zaph:
> 
> 
> ...


Another Kef option, a bit more complex, would be to do this:

1) Buy a set of the Kef home theater speakers. They include five satellites with a 3" coaxial midrange. ($300 at Newegg right now, though the price has been fluctuating up and down all month.) Newegg.com - KEF KHT1005.2SE Home Audio Speaker System w/ White Satellite Speakers

2) Buy four of the Dayton ND91s ($106)
Dayton Audio ND91-4 3-1/2" Aluminum Cone Full-Range Driver 4 290-224 

3) And then make a WMTMW with the Kef and the Dayton ND91s


Here's a few reasons this might work well:

1) If you do a WMTMW you can put the array on it's side. The reason that this is "do-able" is that the xover points are so low, the five drivers basically act like one. Due to the small size, you can get away with really shallow slopes, such as 1khz from the Daytons to the Kef midrange and 3000hz from the Kef tweeter to the Kef Midrange.
2) A horizontal array has narrow directivity, so it minimizes reflection off the sides of the car
3) And of course the main reason to do a horizontal array is that an array of three 9cm drivers is small enough to put nearly anywhere. Under the dash, on top of the dash, etc. You're not limited to putting it in the door or in the kicks.


If one prefers speakers in the kicks, the Kef midrange from the Q100 is probably a better choice.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

O wow, Scotts g35 and John's bus, a couple of heavy weights... Having the pleasure of auditioning both, I guess I'll just provide my humble opinion... 

First of all, I heard Scott's g35 at Usac Finals 2011 and John's last year at CES.

For those who knows me, Im always armed with my monkey cd case filled with Audionutz reference discs. 

I have specific tracks that I am very familiar with and I listen for tonal accuracy, basically how realistic the sound is, from the human vocals to the instruments and spacial placement of everything.

So as expected both cars staged very well... But I feel that the bus edged out the g35 in the realism factor. It just sounds more warm and realistic and more like a live performance as opposed to sounding like the sound is coming from speakers. The vocals had a breathiness to it and the cymbals had an air to it that was quite awesome! The g35 lacked this in my opinion. Nothing was wrong with it, and I can see how it is a phenom in the lanes, but it didn't have the emotion to the music that the bus had.

Just my 2 cents..


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## Got-Four-Eights (Sep 10, 2011)

SouthSyde said:


> O wow, Scotts g35 and John's bus, a couple of heavy weights... Having the pleasure of auditioning both, I guess I'll just provide my humble opinion...
> 
> First of all, I heard Scott's g35 at Usac Finals 2011 and John's last year at CES.
> 
> ...


Most of you probably don't know how good Southsyde is. He keeps a pretty low profile but has one of the best ears out there and has tuned many winning setups. There are some big names who know how good he is. He will probably get mad I mentioned any of this but someone needs to shed some light on how good he is.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

SouthSyde said:


> O wow, Scotts g35 and John's bus, a couple of heavy weights... Having the pleasure of auditioning both, I guess I'll just provide my humble opinion...
> 
> First of all, I heard Scott's g35 at Usac Finals 2011 and John's last year at CES.
> 
> ...


Do you feel the larger listening environment of the bus had anything to do with some of these positive musical attributes you experienced?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

RNBRAD said:


> Do you feel the larger listening environment of the bus had anything to do with some of these positive musical attributes you experienced?


Difference between a 3" VS a 5.25" reproducing most of the midrange bandwith I guess... 

Kelvin


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Southside, I'd invite you to listen again. A lot has occurred in fifteen months; amplifiers, significant electronics modifications in the Bit-Zero, and a bunch of tuning. At USACi, it was truly a good 'demo system.' What it is now is a competition-proven vehicle. I found another 6-8 points for the March SBN Finals, and at least that many for the October Finals in Indy. Highest single sheet SQ score at the October Finals, and highest combined (averaged) score of the March Finals. I'd welcome any contemporary back-to-back evaluation at CES; in fact, I'd encourage it.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

I just hope you (Scott) get seat time in Jon's Magic Bus. It will be interesting to read your thoughts on it. I'll probably never get to hear it beeing on the other end of the world.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

I hope to get some seat time! Jim Becker has heard it...has he chimed in?


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Southside, I'd invite you to listen again. A lot has occurred in fifteen months; amplifiers, significant electronics modifications in the Bit-Zero, and a bunch of tuning. At USACi, it was truly a good 'demo system.' What it is now is a competition-proven vehicle. I found another 6-8 points for the March SBN Finals, and at least that many for the October Finals in Indy. Highest single sheet SQ score at the October Finals, and highest combined (averaged) score of the March Finals. I'd welcome any contemporary back-to-back evaluation at CES; in fact, I'd encourage it.


Scott, I have been to CES two years in a row, so this year I will not be attending, perhaps next year again? Thank you for the invitation to listen to the g35 again, however! This is a much nicer gesture than I was met with at the Hybrid booth two years ago. I remember seeing the Sylvia at the corner of my eyes and I got very excited. I hurried over there and saw the magnificent build, and the time and effort that was put into it. The MAC amps looks much larger in real life than in pictures. I dont see how you fit 4 of them into your rear deck.. That is over 200 lbs!! I then continued to ask the guy from Hybrid if I could have a listen, but he rudely replied "this is an sq car, it doesnt hit hard." I replied with "I know, I have some very good SQ discs I was hoping to listen to in the car." He then told me, there are even speakers in the KICKS... I chuckled and replied "I have been driving with kicks in my cars for the last 16 years." In my last desperate attempt at hearing what is the best SQ car every built, I even told him I was from diyma and that you frequently visit this forum... Again, he continued to say "no" with a get lost kid attitude.. sighh Now, I dont think Id ever have the oppurtunity to again.. 

As far as the g35, I see that you have made drastic changes to it, and your head unit/dsp combo now is superior to what you had before. I am cannot wait to get a chance to demo it again. Perhaps you will be at SBN this year? I will take up your offer then...  I will remind you of this thread... 

~C


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry about the interference you got re: the Silvia. *sigh* Some guys take their job of "protecting" the car a litle too seriously. We didn't demo it until Monday anyway...it was too loud in the hall Saturday and Sunday.

Yes, 250 lbs.hangs from the former rear deck.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Buy a set of the Kef home theater speakers. They include five satellites with a 3" coaxial midrange. ($300 at Newegg right now, though the price has been fluctuating up and down all month.) Newegg.com - KEF KHT1005.2SE Home Audio Speaker System w/ White Satellite Speakers




I just bought a set of these to disassemble and use. I have been looking for awhile now for something like these. Ones like Morel or Xtant are too big for my locations. I actually picked the whole HT set up for $200 from Newegg, they are on there for $250 now I believe. Was just searching for uni-q and this thread popped up. I am not trying a array or MTM of any sort. Just these covering from about 250-300hz on up on my dash. There are not any good 3.5" co-axials out there. Hopefully these work well. 


I am hoping to sell the subwoofer for $50 bucks. That would mean I paid $30 apiece for the mids. Which isnt a bad price if they work well. I will prob just to sell 2 of them since I only need 3.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I actually purchased a couple sets of Kef speakers recently myself with the same goal. I chose not to get the set from newegg though because they don't have the wavelens that helps control tweeter response (called the tangerine). 

If you end up with a spare you'd like to send in for testing LMK.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> I actually purchased a couple sets of Kef speakers recently myself with the same goal. I chose not to get the set from newegg though because they don't have the wavelens that helps control tweeter response (called the tangerine).
> 
> 
> If you end up with a spare you'd like to send in for testing LMK.




Edit: I see the tangerine now. Looks like it is only used on the larger ones, unless my quick search overlooked a 3" one. The tweet is only .6" on the 3" ones, so maybe they cant put one on a tweet that is that small. 



I will have atleast 2 extra, so if you want to test one, drop me a PM. They should be here this week.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

More of a phase plug.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Im hoping those cabinets come apart easily. I dont see any screws on them in any of the pics I see, but they dont really show the whole enclosure well.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

Just ran across this. A couple inputs: I have not heard ALL 'widebanders' in ALL installs but MOST I have heard do have some use. On each side of a computer monitor, in a box with transistors and an antenna on the top, etc.  It is all a trade off in competition. The amount lost on the upper end can certainly be made up in imaging, etc. To each their own. The Jordan's Cook and Vinny use are pretty good. 

MattR: Not sure what he does and does not want out there but depending on everyones definitions, the speakers used at this years finals were not widebanders, full range, or point source. 

In the end there are 1,000's of ways to do 'this' and everyone has their opinions. The cars score so closely these days you really just need to find what works for you. My preferences are cones for mid and domes for the upper end.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Pretty much. 

All the cars competing sound incredibly good. They all do it differently. Sometimes KISS works very well. Other cars with complex installs sound good as well. I have my own preferences but that doesn't mean what I don't prefer can't sound good with the right tune and install.


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## jon w. (Nov 14, 2008)

I've been clear and consistent about my feelings regarding the Magic Bus and competition. I feel Scott Buwalda’s suggestion to put his G35 “up against” the Magic Bus in an “A versus B” comparison has an adversarial feel to it that I have moved well beyond. While competition has its value, the Magic Bus has established its own value by being the first to bridge a chasm that formerly existed between home audio and mobile audio, which has increased the level of respect for the entire mobile audio industry. Our exhibition at T.H.E. Show Las Vegas exemplifies our support for the entire audio industry by sharing the joy of mobile audio. 

Second, I have to follow a daily schedule – mornings dedicated to critical listening demos, followed by a lunch break featuring Larry Mitchell. After lunch, Larry is scheduled to perform at my exhibit, where listeners can enjoy live guitar fed into the Magic Bus’ audio system. I am also featuring the amazing Dynaudio Xeo5 wireless loudspeakers through which Larry will be rendering his guitar. Late afternoon critical listening sessions will resume after Larry’s performance and run until the end of the day. Finally, several important recording engineers and members of the press have expressed interest in visiting my exhibit. When they arrive, I will give them preferential access. Larry and I hope that all of you will plan on enjoying our exhibit. I look forward to entertaining everyone who can make it, but please understand if I am pressed for time at certain points throughout the day. The show runs four days and I am dedicated to everyone who comes, so if I am busy doing demos, please come back. 

CES is a venue where I support my sponsors and Richard Beers’ sensational T.H.E. Show Las Vegas. T.H.E. Show has become the premiere series of high-end audio shows in the United States, and proudly showcases a myriad of high-end home audio gear made by manufacturers who are passionate about audio. This year, for instance, T.H.E. Show Las Vegas will be the only place where KEF “Blade” loudspeakers will be exhibited. This is why I prefer to exhibit the Magic Bus at T.H.E. Show Las Vegas and T.H.E. Show Newport. 

My hope is to put on an exhibit that is an exciting and original experience that conveys the respect, passion, and pure joy that we all share for musicians and the audio industry. Larry Mitchell and I look forward to seeing you in Vegas!

Warmest regards,
Jon


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I must have missed that "a vs. b" statement. All I saw was a request to listen with reference material. The rest of your reply seems to suggest you don't want anyone listening with their own material?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

The Magic Bus does not compete and Jon W. is more than willing to play anything for the listener.

Even in high end home audio it comes down to a preference. I don't think it's fair to say one is better than the other. My personal preference is a system with a lot of presence, which I don't find in a lot of the cars I've listened to.

I'm glad at least someone on the West Coast was a heavy hitter (BigRed). Competition is about meeting a certain criteria sometimes at the cost of tonality.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

millerlyte said:


> While I won't say that your widebanders are inferior (not in the slightest), or they don't sound great (they do), or shouldn't be run as widebanders, or anything of the sort, you can't deny that you would still benefit greatly from adding a dedicated tweeter. I'm probably going to get an earful from you later for this, but hey... just my $.02.


I measured my Kef KHT1005s. It's a 2.5" coaxial. Details here:

Suitable midrange cone, for bandpass mid in Unity horn. - Page 65 - diyAudio

Some reasons you might consider it:

1) If you can sell the sub on eBay for $100, the cost of the Kef drivers is just $30 each. And that *includes* the crossover and enclosure!
2) Efficiency of the Kefs looks to be fairly high, so the output will probably be decent as long as you use a reasonable highpass.
3) Polar response of a coaxial is difficult to beat.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Scott Buwalda said:


> I hope to get some seat time! Jim Becker has heard it...has he chimed in?


Did you get some seat time yet?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Bumpage...Any updates after CES 2013?

And are there any more/new links to the "Heavy Hitters" installs?


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## hemimaddness (Jun 2, 2008)

I just wanted to say thank you.For including me in the list. It is a great honor to be acknowledged and included with some of the greats that are on that list .


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

hemimaddness said:


> I just wanted to say thank you.For including me in the list. It is a great honor to be acknowledged and included with some of the greats that are on that list .


Any links/info we can add to your setup?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Jorges car was one of the BEST cars I heard at MECA Finals last year, it was OUTSTANDING!! If you ever get a chance to listen I HIGHLY recommend you do.


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## hemimaddness (Jun 2, 2008)

Thank you sir


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I got to hear Jorge's car a couple ears ago and really enjoyed it then. Can only imagine how it is now. 

Jorge, you going to be at The Vinny this year? If so, save me some seat time please. 

Erin


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> eh, maybe it is 6.5s. for some reason I keep thinking its 5s bc I bought the same 5s bc he had them didnt use them, but got them:laugh:


Mark Eldridge uses standard JL Audio C5 6.5's and tweeters.


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## hemimaddness (Jun 2, 2008)

No i will be attending the Vinny this year sorry . Had to step away for a while


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I still don't know what a phased speaker array is...or looks like.


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## CAudio (Aug 29, 2016)

Any updates to this list? Thank you!!!


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