# The best SQ subs are



## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

?????


Hey guys. Still trying to decide on a sub. I have heard great things about the XXLS 12's. I have also heard the Avalanche 12's and/or 15's are fantastic.

I am looking for the cleanest, tightest, best sounding sub. 

Should I go 10"? 12"? 15"?

1 or 2?

What manufacturer?

Any help would be great. I haven't bought the mono block sub amp yet so I can go 1 or 2 depending what you guys think?

Whirlygig


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## smee (Jul 3, 2005)

well for strict SQ, it would be extreamly hard to beat the car velodyne sub if you can afford it.
Other than hat many good options are 
magnum d2
Dub7
Idmax
o.v2
xxx
brahmah

the list goes on but i dont remeber much anymore since i havnt been dealing with subs alot lately. It will really come down to the enclosure to seperate most of them. For best SQ you need the best enclosure which all depends on your car and sub.


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

ones that are put into a well designed enclosure.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

From what I understand a simple sealed enclosure with the proper size desinged around the specs of the driver is the best for SQ correct?

Whirlygig


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

For the most part. There is other variables though. 

I'm going with the IDQ15 in a 1.3 cu ft sealed enclosure.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

What benefit does the 15 have over the 12?

The way I understand it the 15 will move more air and get lower but I also thought the 15 wasn't as tight or detailed as the 12. 

Is this correct or am I way off?

I went to the local stereo shop last week. They had a JLW12 running in a ported box, it was just my opinion but I thought it sounded like crap. It just vibrated. Muddy and.....well, just muddy. I have heard other subs that were so much better. I know the ported boxes are usually a little "looser" than sealed but this just sucked!!!!

Whirly


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## xDeLiRiOuSx (Apr 26, 2005)

You might want to also take a look at the review sections of this forums. There's a few subs that were review.

David


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Thanks xDeLiRiOuSx, I will run through them.

Whirly


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## smee (Jul 3, 2005)

the 12 inchers are more detailed that 15's is a misconception. A well designed quality 15/18 will be just as good as a 12/10 but will move more air and get lower


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## smee (Jul 3, 2005)

ported boxes can sound like ass, they can also sound amazing. It depends on the tuning of the box. and most shops down have any properly built ported boxes designed for SQ. Because most people going into shops want something that sounds like a fart machine but gets loud.

If your a beginner i would stick to sealed for now. But if you interested in learning you can research different designs like T-line, quarter wave boxes, aperiodic, im sure theres lots more people can help you with too.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

That's good to know.

What about 1 vs. 2?

1 is cleaner right?

I was planning on running a Mcintosh 301. It will run 300 x 1 @ 4 or 600 x 1 @ 2. Is this enough power to run a 15 to it's max? I know the 15's are tougher to push than the 12's.

Whirly


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## smee (Jul 3, 2005)

it greatly depends on the sub. 600 watts is plenty for most subs, especially a dialy driver. it also depends on the enclosure. Different enclosures allow for different handling power. 

you should research all those subs i listed, and in the process im sure youll find many more. When you find the ones think you want hit us up again and we can help you decide and help you design and enclosure and everything.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Running ribbons up front with W18's in the doors on an active system. Just looking for a really clean sub to fill in the low end and drive the rear. The car is a volvo S70, the sub will be in the trunk. The car has a 2/3 drop out seat. It also has a set of 8" drivers in the rear deck that I will be removing.

If two 10's would be cleaner than a single 12 or 15 I will do that. I still haven't heard about whether a single sub is cleaner than two or not????

I am not looking to have HUGE bass. I do like a strong low end but not overly. I am guessing a single 12 would be enough but I still don't know.

Please help.

Whirly


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

I'd go with a single sub. If you were looking to get louder, a second sub will help. But not needed for SQ.

If you want to run 300 watts, check out the Ascendant Audio Atlas.
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/

Atlas 15" - 105 bucks. 12" 100 bucks,

The IDQ15, is nowhere close to that price, but SD has some renewed ones for 150 bux.

If you want to run more like 600 watts You can look into an IDMAX, or a JL 12W6

ALso have you considered taking advantage of those rear 8's and running an IB setup?


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## FocusInCali (Jul 3, 2005)

The Image Dynamics IDQ is a popular SQ sub. I am very happy with mine and it blends well up front. Upright bass is awesome. After dialing in some Jazz, I was curious how it played rap and such. I am amazed at the output of this single 12" in a .9cft sealed box in my wagon. You can feel it in the chest. But most importantly, when the crossovers and level is just right, it blends well up front and the SQ is great.

As far as trunk mount, I'm not sure what the best approach is. There's a lot of good info here though. If I had a trunk, I'd think about a pair of 10s in a sealed box as the rear deck or mounted against it playing into the cabin using the rear glass to direct forward.


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

the jl12w6 V2 is a very good subwoofer- I promise it was the enclosure they were using at that shop- I agree very few shop's ever build there demo enclosures for sq. 
What type music do you listen to and at what volume?


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

cam2Xrunner,

Sorry, noobi, what's "IB". 

Most of what I have read has suggested to dump rear fill and run only front stage. The subs, of course, are optional as alot of staight SQ guys don't drive subs. I like the low end and want at least a single sub for the rear. 

I am not apposed to running some mid-bass drivers in the rear deck. The original ones are crap though and would have to be replaced.

When I bridge from 4 to 2 ohms I double my distortion. On the mac it's a really low .005 @ 4 to .01 @ 2. Will I notice the distortion doubling? If not, I might as well run it at 2 and use the power that's there. Will the higher end drivers like the IDMAX, JL or AVALANCHE be better SQ or just hit harder than the Atlas?

Thanks for the help

Whirly


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

FocusinCali,

The S70 Volvo has the 2/3 drop out rear seat so I can drop the rear seat down and the driver would be firing directly toward me. I can also pull the 8" drivers in the rear deck and have a single 12 firing up through the rear deck.

I have heard great things about the IDQ and it must be a consideration. I was speaking with NPdang and he also suggested the Peerless XXLS.


Aaron,

I listen to the full gamit. Dire Straits, AC/DC, Buffett, Stevie Ray, Pink Floyd, James Taylor, Eminem, Audio Slave, etc. 

Hey, you still have the ribbons? I either need to purchase the LCY's from NPdang or look at yours.

Whirly


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

IB- infinite Baffle
TL- transmission line- not practicle for car audio, you would be better off with a simple ported enclosure.
I used to sell McIntosh a number of years ago- great amplifiers- very reliable. And no you would not be able to tell the difference in THD at that level. 
IMO you wouldnt go wrong with any of the afformentioned subs- JL, ID- Ascendant, TC etc etc they are all very good subwoofers.


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

No, the ribbons have been sold.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Aaron,

If I ran a set of 8" drivers in the rear deck IB, would'nt it mess with my front stage? I thought that was why most guys just ran front stage.

I haven't purchased the drivers for the front stage yet but my plan was to run what NPdang is running in his car currently, the W18's in the doors and a set of ribbons either up top (if I can fit them) or in the kicks (If I have to). I have a 6 channel Mac crossed over to 4 channel it will run 200 x 2 @ 4 ohms into the W18's and 100 x 2 @ 4 ohms into the ribbons.

Whirly


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

I would not run those 8's in your rear deck. 
From what I am hearing your system might go something like this
headunit ?
behringer DCX2496(time alignment, x-over, and eq)
McIntosh 6 channel bridged to 4 channel providing [email protected] 8 ohm and 50Wattsx [email protected] 8ohm (impedences are not constant) driving the Seas W18 (8ohm) and LCY 130's (8ohm) with the McIntosh 301 driving and IDMax or other sub.
That would be an AWSOME system.
Keep in mind you have to dampen your doors.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Another vote for the Atlas, however, since Chad no longer has any, you're kind of out of luck. I like the Atlas way better than the IDQ. Great SQ, that runs very well on 300 watts.

Another option may be the Resonant Engineering SE12. That will run perfectly off of 600 watts at 2 ohms. They sound great when ran in a proper enclosure. Put one in about 1 cubic foot to 1.25 cubes sealed and call it a day. More than enough output and the SQ you're looking for. It's also a sub that won't break the bank. 

I've experimented quite a bit with subs, and I'm an SQ guy myself. I've had problems getting the output I really needed from a lot of "SQ" oriented subs (like the IDQ). So I started gravitating towards the so called SQL subs with the attitude I could always turn it down.

There are a lot of options out there. Just off the top of my head though, given your power capability the RE SE12 sounds perfect for you.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

kinda rare (sine most dont use them) but Id put my A/D/S 312rs/4 are very sweeet in the SQ dept

not the most throw (only 16mm xmax)

but if you like a sub to hit and disappear (and not resonate) then these are perfect IMO


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

79 bucks, and I hear they're pretty nice.
http://www.millionbuy.com/souexw10.html


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

If you can, do 2 subs instead of 1.
At high excursion, to achieve the same loudness, 1 sub will work twice as hard as 2 subs and 1 sub will distort alot more. e.g: you have 1000 watts to 1 idmax vs 500 watts to each idmax.. Which one will give more distortion?
1 sub won't last as long as 2 subs..Ever noticed your old sub start to sag?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

I'm planning on a single 15" older Tempest for my SQ install.....Tuned low it should have some very good SQ, its underhung design though, but it should do the SQ job very nicely. I have one for my HT and its SQ is top notch to me....i havn't heard a sub that sounds better to date, but i havn't tested that many.


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## 87DXHatch (Jun 25, 2005)

Not that you can acquire them easily, or that you'd want to, but my e15a.22 sounds amazing at any level of loudness... I have yet to hear a more accurate subwoofer, in any circumstance, but then again I haven't been exposed to more than a dozen+ subwoofers.

My last install was the e15a.22 in 2.7 cubes tuned to ~27 hz... in my next install it will be sealed with a bit less than a QTC of .707.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Aaron,

That's exactly right on the setup. W18's at 100W @ 8 and LCY 130's at 50W @ 8 ohms. Head unit will be a MX401 (mac). Active using Behringer 2496 (still waiting for power supply but I hear we are close). The only question now is sub.


Since I haven't purchased the subs or sub amp yet it's wide open. The idea that two subs might be cleaner than one is interesting. It makes sense that there would be more output with two hence I wouldn't have to run them nearly as hard as one.

The flip side is that I didn't run my last sub very hard and have a feeling that either a 12 or 15 single is going to produce more than enough sound and pressure for my listening taste. Space isn't a problem becuase the trunk on a S70 Volvo is big. I can run two if that's going to be a better overall setup. The good news is the rear seat flips down on the S70 so if I want the sub to fire right into the cabin without any physical interference I can simply drop the rear seat. The driver will be firing four feet from my head! 

MiniVanMan,

Sounds like the SE12 is a great option, do you like the 12 over the 15? How much "more" power do you need to run a 15 adequately, I know the driver has alot to do with it.

dual700, the 2 vs. 1 thing is intersting, I really need to consider that. Anyone else have experience with 2 vs. 1?

87DXHatch,

Who makes the e15a.22?

Thank you everyone for your experience. I don't have many stereo shops around my area that are decent and don't have an opportunity to visit 10 or 15 systems before building my own so i have to rely on your experience, you guys are great. Thanx. 

And thanx to NPdang so far as well. You have been great helping figure this system out. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Whirly


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

I like my IDQ10s. Not problems with sound quality at higher volumes. Each sub gets 440 watts. Nice subs for sure. In the past the only other subs I have ever used (in 13+ yrs of owning car audio gear) were USD Audio, old Punch Pro subs, and Soundstream subs. They were always re-used from car to car. All have been in sealed enclosures. I have to say I like the current IDQs the best. Although, here is a list of some subs I plan on testing/trying out soon.

1. Soundsplinter RLi10
2. Treo Engineering TSX10
3. Incriminator Audio "lethal injection" 10

I would list the AA Atlas, but no 10" size. Sorry I just happen to like 10" subs...I already tested out the RE subs , lower line (RE8 and RE10) not really impressed too much, but good buy for the $$. Got them in a group buy for $27 each.


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

I would say with some of the high output - low distortion drivers (brahma-IdMax- w7 or w6, etc.. etc...{ I know these are not DIY subs but they really are at the head of the game when it comes to low distortion high output IMO}) 1 is all you would really need in the 12" to 15" range. This saves on space and weight.
Well whatever you decide you certainly do have a very nice system coming together. 

AzGrower- I loved those old RF Power subs.


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## racerraul (Jun 8, 2005)

newtitan said:


> kinda rare (sine most dont use them) but Id put my A/D/S 312rs/4 are very sweeet in the SQ dept
> 
> not the most throw (only 16mm xmax)
> 
> but if you like a sub to hit and disappear (and not resonate) then these are perfect IMO


Loved those ADS312rs subs... Definitely an awesome SQ sub.
Also if you can find them, the original Crytal CMP & SS EXACTS were excellent SQ subs.

My current favorite is the Diamond Audio D6 (same as the M6 MkII). This sub doesn't get much play on the forums, neither does the Diamond TDX (aka D9).


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

demon2091tb said:


> 15" older Tempest
> its underhung design though


No true, the older Adire Tempest where an Overhung design...


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

For the $ invested and the power available a pair of the Soundstream Exact 10's posted on this thread should fill your needs very well...

Also either the XXLS 12" or the Diamond D6 12"... any of these drivers could work extremelly well and most likelly the difference will be determined by the install and tunning of the sub+box combo...

Don't stress too much, people put too much effort about subwoofes when most of the times tunning is what will make or break the overall performance...

On a side note as you asked about the amp distortion, most people can't hear distortion up to 5% and very few can hear 3%... let alone under 1%...

Good Luck
Leo


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I've seen this question asked a thousand times on a dozen different boards 

The definitive answer Imho, is that the best sq subs are the ones that are tuned, installed, and utilized to however the owner wants it to sound.

What exactly influences the sound quality of a sub?

In order of decreasing importance Imho:

1. Frequency response, level matching, and integration with midbass
2. non-linear distortion

The threshold for audibility of non-linear distortion in a car is probably somewhere around 10-15% in the subbass region. And even the difference between that and distortion of up to 20-25% is somewhat subtle to most people I find. So really, as long as the sub isn't obviously overloading at whatever max spl you need, there really isn't a big difference between drivers.

Now if you need a high spl sub with low distortion, some good choices are Jl w7, Adire Brahma, Re XXX, AA Avalanche, etc. For people who like to bump, but don't like the sound of their sub overloading.

For most people looking for a true sq sub that will be dynamic but don't really need excessive spl levels (these are people who want a subwoofer that's well balanced with their frontstage, is completely transparent, yet can get loud when the music demands it), I always recommend a tc2+ or Peerless XXLS. They are low distortion, low noise, easily affordable drivers with superb build quality. You won't need more output than what these subs offer.

Remember, it's all in the tuning. There's nothing wrong with your rockford, audiobahn, or mtx for sound quality if you tune it properly... you'd be surprised they CAN actually sound good.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> From what I understand a simple sealed enclosure with the proper size desinged around the specs of the driver is the best for SQ correct?
> 
> Whirlygig


NOOOOO! 

You need to measure the driver in the car for the best results, or tune by ear. Equalization is definitely going to be a must, although in my experience you don't even need a crossover for most rear firing subs in the trunk, since the trunk/rear seat acts as a 4th order lowpass filter ~80-90hz.

Also, keep in mind that there are always differences from manuf. specs and the actual sub you own.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 7, 2005)

My favorite sub at the moment is my Elemental Designs 16Kv.2 (15", dual 2 ohm) in a 1.44cu ft (after displacement) sealed enclosure with 1.5lbs of polyfill off a Rockford Fosgate Power 550S (Thanks Derek!). 

Holy **** this sub setup has awsome SQ, and is loud, tight and cost me just under $200 total ($115 for the sub and $75 for the amp. I already had the box). It's better in every aspect than when I had two JL Audio 10w3-D4's in a ported box off a Phaze Audio Tube Driver TD1500 (a past sub combo that I used to miss until now). It's cleaner, louder, and tighter. The Elemental Designs sub blends in very well with the front stage. It's the most transparent sub I've heard. Plus having a single 15" I still have space in my trunk, which I didn't have much of when I ran the two 10w3's ported. This 15" is better than the two 12" Orion Hott Setups (sealed), two JL 12w0's (sealed), two JL 10w3's (ported), and a 15" Kicker Solobaric (the old school round ones) that I've had in the past.

Ryan


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

i was always a big fan of....the old crystal cmp....soundstream exact....a/d/s 312rs.2...eclipse 88120....and the Image Dynamics IDSPL 15"....


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Funny how no one has mentioned the Funky Pups yet... :lol:


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

aaron said:


> I would say with some of the high output - low distortion drivers (brahma-IdMax- w7 or w6, etc.. etc...{ I know these are not DIY subs but they really are at the head of the game when it comes to low distortion high output IMO}.


Not really. While the Adire Brahma - which I consider a DIY woofer, given that Adire (then Avatar) originally entered the subwoofer market with the Shiva as a sort of wishlist-driver for members of the old Basslist - is a special case, what does a Jello Wx, IDwhatever, etc. have on a Dayton Titanic or a Peerless XLS? (Those two woofers have been the sweet spots IMO in the woofer market for quite a while now.) Besides uglier cosmetics, inferior specification (no Faraday rings in the motors, unventilated spiders, often stamped baskets), and a much higher price, nothing.

I suspect that the ne plus ultra for low bass performance right now are the Aura subs, with their massive underhung stroke, followed by the underhung 100mm voicecoil subs from the British firm ATC. They're both too expensive for me to ever consider for my own home or car use, but you've gotta admire the achievement even for the less cash outlay and similar cabinet volume a multiple of Peerless XLS's or Dayton Titanics will give better performance.... (Those two woofers are the sweet spot of price-performance right now. Hopefully the Dayton Reference sub will better both and set off a new round of one-upmanship at great prices.)

For small woofers, the venerable flat piston "racetrack" KEF B139 deserves a nod, along with the Peerless SLS8 and XLS8.

As for my favorite "car audio" subs, they are the following:
-TC Sounds-OEM'ed underhung woofers Crystal sold for a while. I've never been much of a fan of TC's overhung stuff (though I've not heard the latest generation) but these underhung woofers were very solid.
-the old PPI Pro-series underhung sandwhich-dinnerplates. 
-DEI Competition Series 4124. I don't like to mention this woofer much, because DEI's owner is one of the most vile, psychotic, extremist bigots in America today, but this synthetic granite-coned woofer is fairly remarkable, and its lack of success in the market is proof of how little quality matters in commerical car audio. Admittedly, my only experience is with a prototype; the production drivers had slightly less linear stroke - 16mm vs. 18mm of the prototype - but more forgivness for mouth-breathing users built in.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

This is one of the great things this site brings to people like me who don't have the opportunity to hear and review so many of the drivers that you guys have had a chance to own or review.

So much of our opinions on driver performance is based on personal experience. This site gives me an opportunity to listen to all of your experiences and try and come up with a package that is going to be right for me.

NPdang has also suggested the XXLS 12 as a great driver and quite a bit of bang for the buck. Tuning is obviusly an important part of the equation, I'm just not sure how to "tune" a sub.

Are there any tutorials that are out there on this?

Thanks again for all of your help.

Whirlygig


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## 87DXHatch (Jun 25, 2005)

You don't tune the sub, you tune the enclosure... that is, if you're going ported.

The enclosure plays the biggest role in how the sub will sound... moreso than the subwoofer itself. It is difficult, however, to tell you what enclosure will work the best for you, due to the fact that when it goes in your car it will be way different than anything on paper/computer screen.

Generally, large sealed enclosures offer generally flat responses, with ported enclosures offering more low end output than sealed.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

The way I understand it sealed is "cleaner" than ported. Is this not true?


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## 87DXHatch (Jun 25, 2005)

Totally depends on the sub, the enclosure, and the car. The ported you may have heard is likely to be ported way too high, or generally a poorly constructed enclosure.

I had my 15" Elemental Designs e15a ported tuned to 27 hz in an enclosure that had 2.7 cubic feet of airspace and it was the most accurate sub I had ever heard. My buddy had his sealed in an enclosure that had 1 cubic foot of airspace and it wasn't as "clean" as my set up was.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> The way I understand it sealed is "cleaner" than ported. Is this not true?


A lot of the times that statement comes from people who use the wrong sub in a poorly designed ported box...

Some subs just arent designed to work on ported boxes at all... and vice-verse... there's no box better than other, it's using the right driver in the right enclosure...


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## FaintReality (May 15, 2005)

npdang said:


> For most people looking for a true sq sub that will be dynamic but don't really need excessive spl levels (these are people who want a subwoofer that's well balanced with their frontstage, is completely transparent, yet can get loud when the music demands it), I always recommend a tc2+ or Peerless XXLS. They are low distortion, low noise, easily affordable drivers with superb build quality. You won't need more output than what these subs offer.



Where can the 12" tc2+ driver be found? I know you can buy direct in large quantities, but what if you were only to buy a pair? Looks like Oaudio sells them... any experience with them? 

Or are you talking about drivers such as Sound Splinters RL-i?

Dave


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

According to Stephen Ponte, Oaudio sells the original TC2+ driver... he also said the guy was a good person to deal with...


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

If it's true that box design, installation and driver choice is the deciding factor on driver output quality than how do you choose? 

The more I learn, the more confused I become !!!!

12 or 15"?

Ported or sealed?

One or two?

This is more difficult than I thought! I read the review on the TC vs. the Atlas, maybe NPdang would run a comparisson on XXLS vs. the TC!!!!!

Whirly


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

As said before, any of the drivers could work... i guess it comes down to price, build quality, box size requirements, support, warranty...

As for 1 vs 2, 12 or 15, it just depends on how much output you want... if you want to just fill the botton end even a single 10 could work well...

If i had to do it again i would just get what ever i could get my hands on for cheaper... probably either the Diamond D6 or a XXLS...


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

Ds21 IMO, as I have owned the Titanic, that thing had no where near the dynamics of the W7, I listen to the Kodo drummers as a constant reference for the sub/midbass section. I am just comparing those to drivers though- I have always wanted to listen to an Aura though- North Creek used to sell an interesting version.
Did'nt TC make the Older Eclipse?


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Most likely I will start with a single 12 XXLS because of the great recomendations. That should be a great start. It is so difficult to know if it's going to be just what I am looking for until it gets in the car.

Like you've said, so much depends on the vehicle it's going in to, the box, installation, etc. 

What box should I look to build to purchase for the XXLS? I will most likely run the Mcintosh 301 (300 x 1 @ 4ohms or 600 x 1 @ 2ohms) The driver is 8 ohms right? So is running it at 2ohms an option? 

I don't need a custom box, It's going in the trunk so size and shape is flexible.

Whirly


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

aaron said:


> Ds21 IMO, as I have owned the Titanic, that thing had no where near the dynamics of the W7?


Which generation? There are three generations (IIRC) of Titanic, and I'm only writing of the most recent one. The Mk. III Titanic is basically a beefed up knockoff of the Lambda Acoustics LE-series woofers* with some modifications for make mass production feasible. However, that's probably not why you thought what you did. I'd be willing to bet that the Jello sub was in a higher-Q enclosure. Often, what people associate with "dynamics" in a subwoofer is simply a higher value of Qtc. (Likewise, a lot of what people think of as "accuracy" is simply a lower-Q woofer-enclosure system.) A higher-Q sub (vented or sealed) will have more "slam", because it will have a FR peak in the "hit" region (~80Hz). 

That said, my preference between Dayton Titanic and Peerless XLS is the XLS though I imagine most would prefer the former. The XLS doesn't have as much output and is less efficient (i.e. it needs a smaller box for the same Qtc and has a higher enclosed F3), but to me it sounds slightly cleaner. (Also, to be sure, I don't at all like logo dustcaps; the latest Titanics seem to be blighted by a logo whereas the Peerless woofers don't throw their brand name in your face unless you buy a "car" one.) I can't wait for the next generation of music-lover subs to finally supplant the XLS. With luck, said next generation will start with the Dayton Reference and the underhung sub our host mentioned developing when this site first started, but we'll see.

Not that the W7 isn't a perfectly decent sub for lots of people, though when I heard the 13W7 I was strongly reminded of the old TC Sounds/Stryke HE15, which had an off-the-charts Le. Considering that the W7 has a very long VC and a no-Faraday ring motor, just like the HE15, that's no shock at all. Both of them have very poor transient response (what often gets called "speed") compared to lower inductance designs, and degraded performance in octave above Fs. I have nothing against Jello, mind. I use a 300/4 in my car, and have always found their customer support top-notch. However, no woofer lacking a Faraday ring in its motor is worthy of consideration, IMO.



aaron said:


> I have always wanted to listen to an Aura though- North Creek used to sell an interesting version.


The original Aura 1808 has gone through a couple versions. IIRC Aura sold the original design to an outfit called Seismic, who sold versions of it with different cones as their 8169 or something like that. George Short (NCMS) commissioned a version from them that was sold as the North Creek Leviathan. Interestingly, NCMS dropped the Aura/Seismic woofer like GM's credit rating when the Peerless XLS came out...

And yeah, I'm pretty sure the Eclipse subs were just an insanely marked-up version of the TC/Stryke HE-series.

*Somehow I forgot the nicest overhung woofers I've ever played with, the non-LE Lambda Acoustics stuff. (The difference is that the TD/SB/PB Lambdas had Le in the 0.3-0.5 range, yes ZERO POINT SOMETHING for 10-15" woofers, whereas the Le's sleeved motors were closer to 2.0mH.) Painstakingly hand-made, serious attention paid to lowering Le and increasing linearity, and priced within reach of normal people. Too bad Nick gave up the business, though they're still available from John Janowitz of Acoustic Elegance.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> However, no woofer lacking a Faraday ring in its motor is worthy of consideration, IMO.


That's quite a statement there... i wouldnt quite go that far...


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

whirlygig- different enclosure volumes do effect the performance of the subwoofer a good deal, you may want to email npdang and ask what size enclosure he might recommend for that sub - I am not aware of a prefab enclosure for the Peerless XXLS or if you would really want one. 
Also if the sub is "8" ohms nominal your amp would be putting out @150watts in the terms that you are thinking. 

DS21 I owned the mk2 Titanic - I think that's what it was called. I also tried the Swan from Madisound and the NHT1259- ahhh the beginnings of my car audio days- along with many others. I admit I do like the "kick" that you get from the W7- my best friend has the 13w7 in his vehicle. I mostly listen to rock so maybe that's why I like it so much. 
I try to build most of my enclosures with a Q of .7, I also added variovents which seemed to make a difference to me. I was never really sure why it made a difference other than supposedly lowering the impedence at fs- Richard Clark once told me there was no point in using them. 
FWIW owning the Eclipse 88015 right now I HATE that thing- its one of the most "muddy" subs I have owned- I could never "fix" it no matter how much eq adjustment I threw at it. 

North Creek got rid of the Leviathin because of the Peerless?! - wow
I am going to have to get my hands on one of those- well in a little while anyway. 

whirlygig your going to have to give us a review when your done with your system- that Mc is a really well built amp-


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## mathman (Jun 15, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> *Somehow I forgot the nicest overhung woofers I've ever played with, the non-LE Lambda Acoustics stuff. (The difference is that the TD/SB/PB Lambdas had Le in the 0.3-0.5 range, yes ZERO POINT SOMETHING for 10-15" woofers, whereas the Le's sleeved motors were closer to 2.0mH.) Painstakingly hand-made, serious attention paid to lowering Le and increasing linearity, and priced within reach of normal people. Too bad Nick gave up the business, though they're still available from John Janowitz of Acoustic Elegance.


I bought a 12" Lambda with the Faraday ring from John a little while ago. John was a very nice guy, and prompt; it only took a week for the woofer to get built and shipped to my door. Overall, I feel it's a very strong performer.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

DS21,

Thanks for the info on the non-LE Lambda Acoustics. How would stack the XXLS up against those, or are they two different animals?

Aaron,

I will be sure to take lots of pics on the install and give you a full report when it finally gets finished. Currently I am just collecting hardware, I am moving to Florida and will be renting for a few months until we find a house and get settled. After that I will have the rest of my stuff (including my tools) and I will begin the install.

I was listening to "Sad but true" by Metallica tonight on my way home and thought that I might need 2 peerless 12's instead of 1 

Is there a way to wire 2 subs to utilize the extra power of the bridge capability of the amp? Or am I stuck with an 8 ohm load no matter whether I run one or two 12's?

Thanks.


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

I was looking at the Madisound site, and it shows a Dual 8 ohm version in which you would get a 4 ohm load to your amp.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5154364.583&pid=1788

I suppose a second sub will allow you to run it at 2 ohms. (someone correct me if I am wrong)


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## Derek (Jun 4, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> -TC Sounds-OEM'ed underhung woofers Crystal sold for a while.


audiomobile mass? 

that cmp was a hell of a woofer....loved mine...


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Cam2Xrunner,

That's kinda what I was thinking. I could run it at 600 X 1 @ 2 ohms and push them both. Would they both be getting 600W each? or would it split to 300W?

Whirly


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## cam2Xrunner (Apr 30, 2005)

They would split it.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

That's fine. 300 is more than enough for each one of the XXLS isn't it?


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> I am moving to Florida...


What city are you moving to? 

Later
Leo


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

M e t a l l i c a ------- DEFINITLY get 4 :lol: .
good luck with the move!


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## vibrator (Mar 24, 2005)

awesome thread!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> Thanks for the info on the non-LE Lambda Acoustics. How would stack the XXLS up against those, or are they two different animals?


I've not heard the XXLS, but just going by paper specs* it's probably an improvement on the XLS. It has lower inductance. Even so, it's more comparable to the LE-series Lambdas than the PB/SB/TD ones, which are pretty much in a league of their own as far as overhung drivers go even though their 10mm (?) xmax seems tame by today's standards. 

*Since I discovered the importance of Le I've yet to find a woofer that did not perform as in situ as it does on paper, except in cases where the spec sheet did not accurately reflect the actual shipping product.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

300Z said:


> DS-21 said:
> 
> 
> > However, no woofer lacking a Faraday ring in its motor is worthy of consideration, IMO.
> ...


Well, I'm not the only one who would. Here's what Dr. Earl Geddes has written publicly on the subject:



Dr. Earl Geddes said:


> They are used to reduce flux modulation, which is a highly audible form
> of nonlinear distortion even though the THD numbers are low. *There is no reason NOT to use them except to save money.* In the old days these rings were actually silver for low resistivity. The current genre of copper rings use far too little copper. The total resistance is a big factor.
> 
> *Never us a driver without one and bigger is better.*


Source: Basslist, Feb 2004 (emphasis mine)



Dr. Earl Geddes said:


> The shorting ring is probably the only distortion (I'm only talking non-linear distortion here) in a loudspeaker that is highly audible at reasonable listening levels and this is easily explained. From my study of distortion (see my web site) I know that higher orders of nonlinearity are the most important (its not 2nd harmonic that you are hearing, more likeley 4th of higher) and the shorting ring acts on the full bandwidth of the signal, not LF dominated like any excursion related distortion. My point is simply that drivers in which nonlinear distortion is not a factor are readily available. *I would never consider ANY driver without a shorting ring - its simply a given IMO.*


Source: http://www.audioroundtable.com/HighEfficiencySpeakers/messages/1501.html Emphasis and link added.

And here's a little something from Dan Wiggins about inductance in general:


Dan Wiggins said:


> So, the voice coil is an inductor. And we see that inductors don't like to change current. But we also see from equation 4 above that we need to change the current if we want to change the acceleration. So, the voice coil doesn't want us to change the current. How good is it at holding the current? Depends upon the inductance! The higher the inductance of the driver, the longer it can hold the current flowing through it. Which means the more time elapses before it starts to respond to the amplifier's applied voltage. Which means we have slower transient response.
> 
> Guess what - we just answered the original question! It turns out that transient response of a woofer is not a function of the moving mass, as is commonly espoused (one of the most infamous audio myths). In actuality, it is based upon the inductance of the driver. And the greater the inductance, the slower the driver - the lower the transient response. <snip>
> So if you want faster transient response, ignore that moving mass
> parameter that some manufacturers push - look at the inductance! And if they don't list the inductance, ask yourself why - is there something they don't want to show? Inductance is the key to driver transient response - ask for it when transient response comes up!


Source: http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

300Z,

We are moving to St. Pete Beach. My wife and I are tired of the cold weather. A position opened there and we jumped on it. Starting the move this week Friday! Can't wait! Just in time for Hurricane season :shock: 

Good stuff DS-21, thanks.

Thanks again for all the support on this topic. It's been amazingly helpful. 

Any confirmation on the wiring for the XXLS drivers? Can I wire a pair of dual 8 ohm drivers to utilize the 2 ohm bridge mode of the Mc?

Whirly


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

dual 8ohm nominal load would produce a 2ohm load to the amplifier, if using 2 woofers, you would wire all the positives from the speakers to the positive of the amplifier and all the negatives of the speakers to the negatives of the amplifier. This is called parallel wiring.

DS21 thank you for that information. This is a great board to learn from.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

DS-21, as much as i like and understand all the technical side of it, i prefer to listen to the speakers for myself and pass judgement upon that since it's my ears that will be listening at the end anyways, and not just credit/discredit drivers without using/having tried them for myself and just based upon other people opinion, people that i don't know... i've found that some times what's on the "paper" doesnt necessarily translate to the real world or at least doesnt influeciate enough to be a bad thing or good for that matter...

Leo


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> 300Z,
> 
> We are moving to St. Pete Beach. My wife and I are tired of the cold weather. A position opened there and we jumped on it. Starting the move this week Friday! Can't wait! Just in time for Hurricane season :shock:
> 
> Whirly


Cool, i live in Largo (close to St Pete Beach)... there's some of us from the forum here and ECA that usually GTG once a month or every two months for listening to each other system and what not... we usually meet over at Hooters for some food and chat...  if you want to join us you're welcome to so you can listen to some of the speakers talked in here... and if you need a hand installing your system too...

Regards
Leo


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## racerraul (Jun 8, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> 300Z,
> 
> We are moving to St. Pete Beach. My wife and I are tired of the cold weather. A position opened there and we jumped on it. Starting the move this week Friday! Can't wait! Just in time for Hurricane season :shock:
> 
> ...


You are in luck then...

If you wait till you get down here to buy your sub, you could take a listen to my Diamond D6 or Leo's Diamond M6 MkII (same sub)... it is trully an excellent sub (I believe it doesn't have use shorting ring).

If you like it (which I am 110% sure you will) you will also like the deal you can get on this sub down here... 

On the otherhand I also happen to have & like the Alpine Type-X. I believe this sub does use a shorting ring. And my experience with it is that if infact the sub performs better than the Diamond D6, I would have to have it measured to see it cause in the car I can't hear it... the obvious difference is that the Type-X can put out higher SPL numbers. But tonally both are on equal plane.

BTW, you'll also like the deal you can get on the Type-X down here... although the D6 is still a better value between the two.


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## hcbassplay (Jun 19, 2005)

DS-21, since you seem adamantly against non-farady ring design woofers, could you suggest a few examples of drivers with this feature that are in the reach of us DIY'ers?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

From what I've read by Dr. Klippel and confirmed by Werewolf over at ECA, it's not the overall LE, but the LE vs. excursion that determines non-linear distortion.

Take a look at the Klippel driver database for some examples:

http://www.klippel.de/driverdb/dbdata.asp?objectid=060070993141421152

So you can have a driver with low BL, or high LE, and that's not the issue but the linearity of that value vs. displacement of the driver's voice coil. 

A copper or alum. faraday ring or sleeve can lower inductance, but it's main purpose should be to linearize the LE vs. displacement curve. I've also seen drivers where the shorting ring actually increased distortion because it was improperly used.

As far as Lambda drivers go... I didn't really like them for several reasons. Xmax was limited to ~6mm one way and ~10mm xmech which was insufficient for my application. Also the full length copper sleeve just killed the efficiency. I recorded about ~83dbwm for the 10" model. Distortion was certainly below average at 80hz and under, but much better above 80hz. It's more of a woofer than a subwoofer.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

300Z,

That sounds great! I would love to hook up and hear your system. I will PM you when I get down. My wife and I are going on vacation until the end of the month. I will give you a PM when I get back, leaving this Friday.

racerraul,

I will shoot you a PM as well towards teh end of the month. I will have a couple weeks to get settled before I start my new job, that would be a great time to hear your system. 

Thanks again for all of the help with the subs. I think I have settled on a pair of XXLS sealed driven by a Mcintosh 301 bridged @ 2 ohms, 600 x 1 running both at 300 each should be more than enough power.

Does anyone know the driver capability for the XXLS? I will check Madisounds site, wondering if 300 will be too much?

Whirly


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Aaron,

Thank you for the wiring diagram for the pair of dual coil 12's. Where should I start to look for having an enclosure made for those 2 bad boys!

I will start by taking measurements of the trunk enclosure. I am, however, interested in how the actual internal measurements are calculated on a sealed enclosure. How does the basket and driver calculate into the equation? Does sound material also get taken into the equation? 

Thanks again everyone for the help.

Whirly


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

For a custom box check with Mr Marv from ECA...


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Where,What, Who is ECA?


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## mathman (Jun 15, 2005)

npdang said:


> As far as Lambda drivers go... I didn't really like them for several reasons. Xmax was limited to ~6mm one way and ~10mm xmech which was insufficient for my application. Also the full length copper sleeve just killed the efficiency. I recorded about ~83dbwm for the 10" model. Distortion was certainly below average at 80hz and under, but much better above 80hz. It's more of a woofer than a subwoofer.


Here are the specs for the Lambda LF12 (with Faraday rings) from January 2004. John may have more current specs if anything has changed. 

Part# LF12
Size 12" 
Fs 24.3 Hz
Qms 4.81 
Qes 0.35 
Qts 0.37 
Vas 120 Liters
Cms 0.3 mm/N
Mms 143 grams
Motor ML (overhung)
Sd 530 cm2
Magnet 120oz (3.4Kg) Ceramic 5
Rms 4.5 Kg/S
VC diameter	51mm 
Bl 14.5T/m
VC Former	Black Anodized Aluminum
Re 3.6 ohms
VC Wire 4 Layer Copper Flatwire	
Z 4 ohms
Basket Cast Aluminum 12 Spoke 
Le 0.3 mH
Cone Mineral Filled Hard Poly
Pe (nom) 300 Watts
Cone Profile Straight 
Pe (max) 500 Watts
Surround Doped Foam, 2 layer treatment
Pe (transient) 1000 Watts
Dustcap Hard Poly
"no" 0.44%
Spider Hard stiffness Nomex
2.83VSpl 89.6 dB
Faraday Copper 
Air Gap 18 mm
Pole Vent Yes
VC Length 38 mm
Terminals Gold Plated Binding Posts
Linear Xmax 10 mm (peak)
Weight 23lbs 
Mech Xmax 20 mm (peak)


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## aaron (Apr 8, 2005)

whirlygig that McIntosh rating is RMS, I am sure it's "peak" is well over the 600 watts and very capable of "driving" those subwoofers- I wouldnt worry about it at all.


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

Thanks Aaron,

Can't wait to get this system going, I am starting to itch!

Whirly


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## Archmage (May 25, 2005)

Lambda Acoustics Faraday and Apollo are special drivers, and even the LE is nice (but I think the 15's are the best here...the TD-series was made to be a 15" design, and is not quite optimal at other sizes (according to nick)) 

TC2+ slightly beats out XXLS; slightly lower distortion.

I love the tc2+ -----> One of the best, and at such a low cost.


Multiple subs may prevent stressing toward Xmax; as long as drivers are closely parameter-matched it should be good.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Whirlygig said:


> Where,What, Who is ECA?


 EliteCarAudio is another car audio forum, where most of us came from... 
http://forum.elitecaraudio.com

Mr Marv contact info... phone # 1-831-383-0308
web http://community.webtv.net/MarvsPlace/MarvsPlace

Leo


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Archmage said:


> TC2+ slightly beats out XXLS; slightly lower distortion.


I believe that comparison was made with the XLS and not with the XXLS... unless it's been tested again...


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## Whirlygig (Jun 21, 2005)

ECA... Thanks. Been there and back!


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## Archmage (May 25, 2005)

300Z said:


> Archmage said:
> 
> 
> > TC2+ slightly beats out XXLS; slightly lower distortion.
> ...


Hmm, nvm, I think you're right.

Anyone have measurements on the XXLS ?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Archmage said:


> 300Z said:
> 
> 
> > Archmage said:
> ...


That is quite true... however the XLS is also much more efficient than the TC2+, something worth considering.

I don't recall the entire test, but it seemed that the drivers were tested at the same drive voltage, and not spl... which would skew the results toward the less efficient driver.


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## harrier (Jun 20, 2005)

Can I know the exact model of the XXLS you are recommending?
Thanks.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Test report here... http://www.mfk-projects.com/tc2+.htm


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

hcbassplay said:


> DS-21, since you seem adamantly against non-farady ring design woofers, could you suggest a few examples of drivers with this feature that are in the reach of us DIY'ers?


Peerless XLS/XXLS
Peerless SLS
Peerless CSX and HDS (midbass)
Dayton Titanic
Dayton Reference
Dayton RS (midbass)
Aura/Sonicraft 12NRT (from Madisound)
ScanSpeak 
Seas Excel
Seas Lotus
Volt
BMS and B&C (mostly low-xmax "pro" woofers, but some double-digit xmax ones, too.)

And in the "not so much within reach" category, AudioTechnology (aka Skaaning, C-Quenze, Flexunits), ATC, and Aura.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2005)

great thread doodes  Probably will add more later, particularly in relation to inductance & transient response. For now may I just point out that Seas does not make an Excel-class subwoofer, as far as I know :? Jeez I would love to be proven wrong on this. No bigger fan of Excel drivers than me, but the largest Excel driver (W26) is not really a subwoofer (at least by today's excursion standards) ... and the Lotus subs aren't Excel-class as far as I can tell. No copper ring on the Lotus subs, and consequently very high inductance.

Scan-Speak, however, does offer an SD-1 motor subwoofer. It's an amazing little 10 inch (well, probably more like 9 inch based on cone/radiating area), and looks killer sexy in black  Also seems remarkably well suited to a variety of enclosures ... small sealed, large sealed, even PR.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

werewolf said:


> great thread doodes  Probably will add more later, particularly in relation to inductance & transient response.


Oh yeah, please do...  good to see you here too sir... 

Leo


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## hcbassplay (Jun 19, 2005)

I am seriously considering the XLS 4ohm auto version, by recommendation of madisound.... the only thing that worried me was that in the recommended(by madisound) box of 11 litres, the f3 was 69hz, which seems pretty high to me, I'm not sure how much of an issue that really is. I asked about a larger sealed box and he said that the drop in f3 was negligible, and most of the change was in the q of the box. Ported isn't really an option with the space that I have to work with.

What do you guys think? Should I just give this a shot and see how it sounds in person or should I go with a different sub? I was planning on powering it with Zapco studio 150 bridged at 300RMS.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

hcbassplay said:


> I am seriously considering the XLS 4ohm auto version, by recommendation of madisound.... the only thing that worried me was that in the recommended(by madisound) box of 11 litres, the f3 was 69hz, which seems pretty high to me, I'm not sure how much of an issue that really is. I asked about a larger sealed box and he said that the drop in f3 was negligible, and most of the change was in the q of the box. Ported isn't really an option with the space that I have to work with.
> 
> What do you guys think? Should I just give this a shot and see how it sounds in person or should I go with a different sub? I was planning on powering it with Zapco studio 150 bridged at 300RMS.


Counterintuitively, an anechoic F3 of 69Hz is just right for subwoofers in most cars. Cabin gain tends to kick in at about 70Hz, so the end result is that your sub's rolloff is more than compensated for by the small cabin dimensions. 

That said (assuming it's the 12 we're talking about) IMO an 11L box is small; a Qtc of 0.87 is much higher than I prefer. What I've usually done with XLS12's (the "home" and "car" ones perform basically identically) is to use a 1 cube (~28L) enclosure, and stuff it with polyfill. That gives a Qtc of about 0.55, and in terms of FR generally results in a smooth, gradual 3dB rise in your in-car FR over 200Hz-70Hz, with basically flat FR down to anything from there. (That rise in FR does a good job of balancing the bass with the rest of the system in a moving car, which is one reason I advocate running a much HIGHER sub crossover than conventional wisdom suggests.) though obviously in a nonmoving car - competition or whatever - you'd want to make sure to balance the bass.) By comparison, the 11L box will result in the same rise from 200-70Hz, but response there will peak and steeper rolloff of the high-Q enclosure will result in less truly deep bass, to the tune of about 6dB at 20Hz., Compared to a typical car system, which has a much stronger "boom region" (60-90Hz) peak and even steeper rolloff below that, some may find that the XLS-based system doesn't "hit" as hard. But in truth they just don't know what flat and extended bass sounds like.

But don't trust me on that. Go to this online box calculator and see the effects of cabin gain for yourself!


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## hcbassplay (Jun 19, 2005)

It happened to be the 10, but I was probably going to bump the volume up to around 15 litres since I haven't ever been a very high Q sealed box guy. I have been a fan of Image dynamics for many, many years(since the IDW) and was just going to throw in an IDQ10 but the 92db sensitivity and ventilated spider of the peerless are looking mighty tasty to me.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

hcbassplay said:


> It happened to be the 10, but I was probably going to bump the volume up to around 15 litres since I haven't ever been a very high Q sealed box guy. I have been a fan of Image dynamics for many, many years(since the IDW) and was just going to throw in an IDQ10 but the 92db sensitivity and ventilated spider of the peerless are looking mighty tasty to me.


15L would be good. If you have the space, 20L stuffed with polyfill would be even better. Qtc of about 0.55 again.

The ID subs - I never was a fan of the "short linear throw, not terribly good cone control, but at least they won't break" bad PA woofer-based IDW design, but my other car still has IDQ-12's in it - compare to the Peerless XLS's about as well as a 20 year old walkman compares to an iPod: you CAN make the XLS sound worse than the ID, just as 64kbps MP3 played on a iPod don't compare well to clean tapes played on a well-aligned head. However, it takes a fairly advanced level off incompetence to achieve that result.


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## dexza (Feb 22, 2007)

for one of the best SQ subs: try Scan Speak 23W_4557T00 9"


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

As far a good underhung subs go, I love my audiomobile MASS. I dont have any credentials or even know what a faraday ring is though. Just 10+ years in caraudio.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

wow, this thread is OLD.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

yea, thanks, dexza


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## dexza (Feb 22, 2007)

internecine said:


> yea, thanks, dexza


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## The Blue Blur (Sep 14, 2006)

Hey you can't tell everyone to use search and then fault a guy for using it


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