# The Horn that started it all...



## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

I was wondering if anyone knows the story behind the original car audio horn? I know Speaker Works installed a 4" and Tweeter in an enclosure under the dash of the Grand National for starters and competed with that for a while. How and when did that evolve into what they are now using Compression Drivers. 

Also did anyone get a chance to hear the GN with the original Horns installed? I'd love to hear how they sounded. 

Eric Stevens I'm hoping you'll chime in here. I wish you could tag someone on the forum....lol 

I don't think the guys from Speaker Works roam the forum but if they do it would be great to hear their story.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

My understanding is the GN with the horns was a product of the original rule book for IASCA when there was 140 points for SPL and no system adjustments were allowed between RTA and SQ judging and you did SPL prior to SQ judging.


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

Eric Stevens said:


> My understanding is the GN with the horns was a product of the original rule book for IASCA when there was 140 points for SPL and no system adjustments were allowed between RTA and SQ judging and you did SPL prior to SQ judging.


Ok so maybe a better question is how did horns go from being an enclosure with a mid and tweeter in it to a compression driver. Did the mid/tweet thing actually work fairly well??


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> My understanding is the GN with the horns was a product of the original rule book for IASCA when there was 140 points for SPL and no system adjustments were allowed between RTA and SQ judging and you did SPL prior to SQ judging.


to be more specific , a comptitor had to do FULLRANGE spl.this was supposed to test "system integrity" it wasn't subwoofers only.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

SteveH! said:


> to be more specific , a comptitor had to do FULLRANGE spl.this was supposed to test "system integrity" it wasn't subwoofers only.


Exactly!!!

It was later lowered to a maximum score of 130 dB. But I still prefer the format even though with DSP and other methods it made it impossible to police.


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

i would think a high sensitivity/ large cone area speaker based car could do quite well in full range spl.with the right sspeaker choices it could peg the meter and sound good too if designed right.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Most people today who are only familiar with low frequency SPL really cant fathom what full range SPL really means.
They think that they can just turn up the subs and keep the front end playing which is full range and that makes it full range

the big caveat was , you had to be judged for SQ, immediately following SPL. RTA was originally done with the exact same settings as RTA and SPL.

The system had to be built so it could have a relatively flat frequency response for SQ and RTA and still be able to get REALLY REALLY Measurably loud.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> Most people today who are only familiar with low frequency SPL really cant fathom what full range SPL really means.
> They think that they can just turn up the subs and keep the front end playing which is full range and that makes it full range
> 
> the big caveat was , you had to be judged for SQ, immediately following SPL. RTA was originally done with the exact same settings as RTA and SPL.
> ...


yea, like you know???


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

capea4 said:


> yea, like you know???


Yeh Ive been around a bit so I definitely have a clue


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> Yeh Ive been around a bit so I definitely have a clue


Lol, just a little


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> Lol, just a little


This Summer, at the Hyannis SPL competition, while I was giving SQ demo's, there was a guy there that listened to my system that told me I had around the area of 135 DB. That is Full Range DB. I like to listen to my music right at 95 DB with an occasional peak at a 100 - 102 DB.

Charlie.......I'm still waiting for you to give my truck a demo.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No way with your equipment you have. Not 135 dB full range. No way.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

lsm said:


> I was wondering if anyone knows the story behind the original car audio horn? I know Speaker Works installed a 4" and Tweeter in an enclosure under the dash of the Grand National for starters and competed with that for a while. How and when did that evolve into what they are now using Compression Drivers.
> 
> Also did anyone get a chance to hear the GN with the original Horns installed? I'd love to hear how they sounded.
> 
> ...


All I could say the horn that started it all, well if I think about that, seems to me anyone that has ever had horns is a enthusiast obviously , being they made there way to a set. So places like this fourm and such would only be a place a new horn owner can get info. And I only know one person that actively supports a horn prouduct, and always has. So. As far as starting what all? I think it's just communities like this , and more importantly the supplier that keep "it all" alive.

Why wouldn't someone keep horns a thing , because they are still the best sounding speakers for a car. For reals.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> No way with your equipment you have. Not 135 dB full range. No way.


I'm hitting 100 DB at about 15 on my volume control. It goes up to 35. I think that day we had it on 28 the loudest I have ever set it to. 

Why does that seem unlikely to you?

I ended up blowing two tweeters, and smoking one amp. It wasn't a fun experience. Painful on the ears.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Because I think you are thinking full range in a way different than the rest of us are talking about it.

So you are saying you are doing 135 dB from 150 hertz and up? Sorry, with your speakers that is impossible.

My car with horns, 8" pro audio midranges and 8" midbasses would do 120. You physically had to yell as loud as you could to be able to remotely vocally communicate with the passenger.


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

oabeieo said:


> All I could say the horn that started it all, well if I think about that, seems to me anyone that has ever had horns is a enthusiast obviously , being they made there way to a set. So places like this fourm and such would only be a place a new horn owner can get info. And I only know one person that actively supports a horn prouduct, and always has. So. As far as starting what all? I think it's just communities like this , and more importantly the supplier that keep "it all" alive.
> 
> Why wouldn't someone keep horns a thing , because they are still the best sounding speakers for a car. For reals.


I think you're missing the point here. The original horn didn't use a compression driver it used a 4" speaker and 1" tweeter. At some point that evolved into a horn with a compression driver. I'm just curious about the history behind how the horn came to be. I also know Eric was heavily involved back in the early stages so I thought he (and others) might have some interesting stuff to share. 

I know how they stay alive today because I own them myself and have always been a huge supporter of Eric's products.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> Because I think you are thinking full range in a way different than the rest of us are talking about it.
> 
> So you are saying you are doing 135 dB from 150 hertz and up? Sorry, with your speakers that is impossible.


Nothing was measured. It was his estimate. And he has been competing and winning SPL competitions he was about 46 years old. But my Frequency response graph is ruler flat from 25- 100 Htz.

Only 20DB variation from 25 to 15K. 

The way it was set up that day, had a 20 DB dip from 100 Htz to 200 and rises back up like a ramp as it nears the top end to even out with the bottom end. 

So 150 Hertz was probably 125 DB and rose to near 130 - 135 DB on the high end gradually.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> Because I think you are thinking full range in a way different than the rest of us are talking about it.
> 
> So you are saying you are doing 135 dB from 150 hertz and up? Sorry, with your speakers that is impossible.
> 
> My car with horns, 8" pro audio midranges and 8" midbasses would do 120. You physically had to yell as loud as you could to be able to remotely vocally communicate with the passenger.


We couldn't talk and I wanted to exit the vehicle. I couldn't believe that he could sit there and take it. He was on axis and I was to the side, with my ears bleeding.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

as a refresher

Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Hand Drill 98dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Jet engine at 100' 140dB
12 Gauge Shotgun Blast 165dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB


OSHA Daily Permissible Noise Level Exposure
Hours per day Sound level
8 90dB
6 92dB
4 95dB
3 97dB
2 100dB
1.5 102dB
1 105dB
.5 110dB
.25 or less 115dB

Perceptions of Increases in Decibel Level
Imperceptible Change 1dB
Barely Perceptible Change 3dB
Clearly Noticeable Change 5dB
About Twice as Loud 10dB
About Four Times as Loud 20dB


Sound Levels of Music
Normal piano practice 60 -70dB
Fortissimo Singer, 3' 70dB
Chamber music, small auditorium 75 - 85dB
Piano Fortissimo 84 - 103dB
Violin 82 - 92dB
Cello 85 -111dB
Oboe 95-112dB
Flute 92 -103dB
Piccolo 90 -106dB
Clarinet 85 - 114dB
French horn 90 - 106dB
Trombone 85 - 114dB
Tympani & bass drum 106dB
Walkman on 5/10 94dB
Symphonic music peak 120 - 137dB
Amplifier, rock, 4-6' 120dB
Rock music peak 150dB


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The GN never had components in it AFAIK, it was built with the horns in mind.

Harry Kimura's Legend was the first car in IASCA to use kick panels (I think it was Harry's car). Then they took the 4s and tweets in the kicks out and did a smaller version of the system in the GN. 




lsm said:


> I think you're missing the point here. The original horn didn't use a compression driver it used a 4" speaker and 1" tweeter. At some point that evolved into a horn with a compression driver. I'm just curious about the history behind how the horn came to be. I also know Eric was heavily involved back in the early stages so I thought he (and others) might have some interesting stuff to share.
> 
> I know how they stay alive today because I own them myself and have always been a huge supporter of Eric's products.


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> The GN never had components in it AFAIK, it was built with the horns in mind.
> 
> Harry Kimura's Legend was the first car in IASCA to use kick panels (I think it was Harry's car). Then they took the 4s and tweets in the kicks out and did a smaller version of the system in the GN.


I've read an article about the GN having a 4" component set in rectangular boxes under the dash that resemble horns. I think it was in an old Car Audio Magazine actually. Maybe from back when the car was first featured... I'm pulling from memory long ago....

Edit: Just found the article: http://www.caraudiojunkies.com/showthread.php?1253-SpeakerWorks-Grand-National-1989-CA-amp-E&


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

lsm said:


> I think you're missing the point here. The original horn didn't use a compression driver it used a 4" speaker and 1" tweeter. At some point that evolved into a horn with a compression driver. I'm just curious about the history behind how the horn came to be. I also know Eric was heavily involved back in the early stages so I thought he (and others) might have some interesting stuff to share.
> 
> I know how they stay alive today because I own them myself and have always been a huge supporter of Eric's products.



That seems like a natural progression, compression drivers have low distortion and high sensitivity.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Nothing was measured. It was his estimate. And he has been competing and winning SPL competitions he was about 46 years old. But my Frequency response graph is ruler flat from 25- 100 Htz.
> 
> Only 20DB variation from 25 to 15K.
> 
> ...


Yeah... Not happening... 

If you measure your SPL, it won't be anywhere near those numbers. 

Matt told me once that having 140dB full range would actually melt your interior... He laught very loud but he then said he's not lying. Dunno what was the truth lol  :laugh:

Kelvin


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Most people today who are only familiar with low frequency SPL really cant fathom what full range SPL really means.
> They think that they can just turn up the subs and keep the front end playing which is full range and that makes it full range
> 
> the big caveat was , you had to be judged for SQ, immediately following SPL. RTA was originally done with the exact same settings as RTA and SPL.
> ...


I remember that! A whole different world of competition back then. As a result, many systems sounded like total crap! LOL! You had to really think about where you wanted to score points, especially in the low wattage classes. I never used/owned any horns but, I can see how they would have almost been a necessity at the highest levels of competition. Can you imagine what such competitions might be like today?


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

I remember at a few SPL shows seeing a separate competition for loudest in car speaker in stock locations. Using a termlab sensor on the windshield it was something low 30's, from a very veteran SPL guy. I can't speak to what power or speaker's he was using. 

My friend did a 127 with a single 6 x 9 in a bandpass box!


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

High Resolution Audio said:


> This Summer, at the Hyannis SPL competition, while I was giving SQ demo's, there was a guy there that listened to my system that told me I had around the area of 135 DB. That is Full Range DB. I like to listen to my music right at 95 DB with an occasional peak at a 100 - 102 DB.
> 
> Charlie.......I'm still waiting for you to give my truck a demo.


well, we can settle all this when we do connect, we will just put the old RTA in it and fire that puppy up. now that IA closed, cape air is the only airline flying to Nantucket, so my travel has gotten even worse.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

on my last tuning session in the bmws, this was pretty damn loud


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Nothing was measured. It was his estimate. And he has been competing and winning SPL competitions he was about 46 years old. But my Frequency response graph is ruler flat from 25- 100 Htz.
> 
> Only 20DB variation from 25 to 15K.
> 
> ...



My math mistake. At 150 Hertz it was 115 DB not 125. 135-20=115 DUH!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> on my last tuning session in the bmws, this was pretty damn loud


So you are a pilot for Cape Air. Now I get the screen name. You must know Peter Kasergis.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

I could be totally off, but I seem to remember the 4" being some super-secret thing that may or may-not have ever been there. I think the GN always had horns but some speculate the dash speakers were used for some other purpose concurrently.


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## dawaro (Jul 22, 2015)

Sine Swept said:


> I remember at a few SPL shows seeing a separate competition for loudest in car speaker in stock locations. Using a termlab sensor on the windshield it was something low 30's, from a very veteran SPL guy. I can't speak to what power or speaker's he was using.
> 
> My friend did a 127 with a single 6 x 9 in a bandpass box!


At Audio Designs, before Matt left, we got two RF Power 10's to do 163 at the passenger window...

As a disclaimer they were hooked up to a 110V outlet so they had lots and lots of juice. IIRC we ended up tripping the breaker before the speakers let the smoke out:laugh:


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

lsm said:


> I think you're missing the point here. The original horn didn't use a compression driver it used a 4" speaker and 1" tweeter. At some point that evolved into a horn with a compression driver. I'm just curious about the history behind how the horn came to be. I also know Eric was heavily involved back in the early stages so I thought he (and others) might have some interesting stuff to share.
> 
> I know how they stay alive today because I own them myself and have always been a huge supporter of Eric's products.


Why , I didn't know that . Geesh I would have guessed it was someone who took a pro horn out of a cabinet like a altec and used it in a car. 

That's very intresting . Man I would love to see some pics of that tho. A 4" and a tweet in a wooden horn? Very intresting . I never really thought about its beginnings like that. I learn something kinda cool now. Thx


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> Because I think you are thinking full range in a way different than the rest of us are talking about it.
> 
> So you are saying you are doing 135 dB from 150 hertz and up? Sorry, with your speakers that is impossible.
> 
> My car with horns, 8" pro audio midranges and 8" midbasses would do 120. You physically had to yell as loud as you could to be able to remotely vocally communicate with the passenger.


So , the "system linearity test" on IASCA CDs where you turn up vol to normal speaking voice always ended up with volume all the way up , than the track would play and blow the proverbial doors off. Was that a replacement for the highest SPL or a integration to it. 

My cars always sounded good all the way up because how I like to gain my amps all the way down , but some cars Would distort pretty bad when that trumpet would blast.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

L'daddy was the SPL track.

Eric's Sable was said to do 125ish on L'daddy with his front stage- a pair of CD2 horns and a Zapco Z600C2 on them and a pair of IDQ8s with a Zapco Z600C2 on each. 

So forgive me that I don't believe for a minute that a pair of 5.25 components will/was as loud as Eric's Sable.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So you are a pilot for Cape Air. Now I get the screen name. You must know Peter Kasergis.


No no, i fly to nantucket each week for work, I'm not the pilot. my screen name is cape A4, as in audi A4. we have talked? I build high end home systems.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

There was a story on Carsound back in the day where RC said the GN had Bose 4s under the dash that were gated so the 12s in the sides would only play at high levels.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> There was a story on Carsound back in the day where RC said the GN had Bose 4s under the dash that were gated so the 12s in the sides would only play at high levels.


Is it possible that a gate could also trigger a higher xo for said 4"s 

I mean , would it be possible for the 4s to have a variable xo that goes lower as level is decreased .


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Not with the Rane AC23 they were using for a crossover.

Unless something else was hidden in the car.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

Who knows...
Wasn't there a couple of unmarked black boxes in that car.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I miss my rane ac23s..

loving this discussion.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> Not with the Rane AC23 they were using for a crossover.
> 
> Unless something else was hidden in the car.


Well. Is it even possible , hate to switch gears and talk about processors , but is there such thing? Ever heard of anything like that , a variable crossover . 

I could find uses for such thing .


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

lsm said:


> I've read an article about the GN having a 4" component set in rectangular boxes under the dash that resemble horns. I think it was in an old Car Audio Magazine actually. Maybe from back when the car was first featured... I'm pulling from memory long ago....
> 
> Edit: Just found the article: SpeakerWorks - Grand National - 1989 CA&E


WOW!!!! What memories!! I used to LIVE to read those magazines. That was the beauty of having to go to the grocery store with my mom when I was a kid. I'm 35 years old now, and I sincerely miss those old publications. If I knew then what I know now, I would have saved every single car audio magazine I ever had. 

Does anybody know where one can find archived issues of old publications?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

USD Audio aka SpeakerWorks is eight-tenths of a mile away from Radian Audio. USD Audio compression drivers are re-branded Radian compression drivers.

So we can only speculate how the horns wound up in the car, but I have a hunch that Radian being walking distance from SpeakerWorks didn't hurt.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Niick said:


> WOW!!!! What memories!! I used to LIVE to read those magazines. That was the beauty of having to go to the grocery store with my mom when I was a kid. I'm 35 years old now, and I sincerely miss those old publications. If I knew then what I know now, I would have saved every single car audio magazine I ever had.


You and me both. All through the 90's I used to pick up the magazines at the grocery store. Around 2000-2001 they just stopped stocking them. There were so many dream systems...but the industry took a turn toward the end and integrated dashes and fiberglass ruined everything. My favorites were always the stealth installs.

As for the horns, I have a feeling most of the systems of the 80's and 90's would sound like crap compared to what we have today. We've got more power, cleaner power, and more processing power than they could dream of. I'd love to see a side by side review if any of those competition cars still exist (unmodified from their competition days) with a top not install by today's standards.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

I would bet donuts to dollars that when the article was published in 1989 it had the horns in it and they said they were a 4" and tweeter.


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## dawaro (Jul 22, 2015)

chuyler1 said:


> As for the horns, I have a feeling most of the systems of the 80's and 90's would sound like crap compared to what we have today. We've got more power, cleaner power, and more processing power than they could dream of. I'd love to see a side by side review if any of those competition cars still exist (unmodified from their competition days) with a top not install by today's standards.


That is a pretty bold statement...80's maybe, 90's no way...You must not have had a chance to hear some of those tops vehicles. Keep in mind that by the 80's many of the top guys were using pro audio processing which doesn't lack much from what we use now it was just in a much larger package.

Having heard Eric's Sable in both the Lanzar and Zapco versions, several versions of Chad Eldridge's 4-Runner and the same for Gary Bigg's Buick I have no doubt they could hold their own with todays system.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It probably also depends on which disk you were using to judge with...the 94 IASCA disk is vastly different than the 2014 IASCA and current MECA disks.

Speaker Works back in the day was also a recone/repair facility for drivers. So compression drivers and PA speakers were not something new to them.


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> I would bet donuts to dollars that when the article was published in 1989 it had the horns in it and they said they were a 4" and tweeter.


that's a very likely scenario. a lot of lies were told back then . "competitors were trying to maintain their competitive advantage."clone cars" were a big problem as well. people would try to copy a winning car. even the install was copied . it's one thing if you like an idea in a car . but to go so far as to completely imitate a car showed lack of respect and a lack of originality.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

chuyler1 said:


> You and me both. All through the 90's I used to pick up the magazines at the grocery store. Around 2000-2001 they just stopped stocking them. There were so many dream systems...but the industry took a turn toward the end and integrated dashes and fiberglass ruined everything. My favorites were always the stealth installs.
> 
> As for the horns, I have a feeling most of the systems of the 80's and 90's would sound like crap compared to what we have today. We've got more power, cleaner power, and more processing power than they could dream of. I'd love to see a side by side review if any of those competition cars still exist (unmodified from their competition days) with a top not install by today's standards.


:: groan ::

I can't tell the difference between a $1000 amplifier and a $100 amplifier, but I *do* know that the class D amps which are the norm these days aren't cleaner than a good class AB amp from the 90s.

And as for "more power", I've done the math, and it's surprising to realize how loud those IB setups from the 90s could get.

We definitely have more processing power, but I've noticed that DSP has given a lot of people an excuse to use crummy locations for their speakers.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

90's was the peak for sure, but the late 80's the amps weren't quite there yet. They had external noise gates to remove the hiss when the system wasn't playing, only passive crossovers for the most part. No 24 bit dacs, and they resorted to hacking up pro eqs to run on 12v because the equipment just didn't exist in the industry yet.

Our vehicles today for the most part (pickup trucks excluded) are smaller too. The Grand National interior is the size of a living room compared to your average mid-size with a huge trunk that could be sealed tight. When you dropped 2 15s in, they may have called it IB but when they finished it was more like a very large sealed box. 

So anyway, I have no doubt the GN sounded loud and balanced, but i think today we have more crisp staging and cleaner output compared to late 80s installs. By late 90s, i think they had everything we have now except they had to tune it all by hand and it was way more expensive. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think there has been a car since the GN that could do the kind of output it could do. RC's Caddy was said (by him) that it was a better sounding car than the GN, but could not max the SPL and other stuff like the GN could do.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Well, some of what was considered exotic stuff back in the day is still out there apparently...


USD SW3X Crossover and SW30 Equalizer Speaker Works Buick Grand National | eBay


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't think there has been a car since the GN that could do the kind of output it could do. RC's Caddy was said (by him) that it was a better sounding car than the GN, but could not max the SPL and other stuff like the GN could do.


A couple years back I did the math on those JBL midbasses, and realized that they were capable of doing about 10-20dB more than your typical car audio midbass.

Going from 6.5" to 12" doesn't seem like a big difference, but the key is that their EBP is high and their power handling is unobtanium.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> A couple years back I did the math on those JBL midbasses, and realized that they were capable of doing about 10-20dB more than your typical car audio midbass.
> 
> Going from 6.5" to 12" doesn't seem like a big difference, but the key is that their EBP is high and their power handling is unobtanium.


6.5 to 12 is like 4x the cone area.. Anyone who has seen a 12 and a 6.5 side by side know how different that is.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't think there has been a car since the GN that could do the kind of output it could do. RC's Caddy was said (by him) that it was a better sounding car than the GN, but could not max the SPL and other stuff like the GN could do.


If we ignore SQ I'm sure there has been plenty, but SPL/demo cars really don't count. Once the presentation gets that bad, it no longer a fair comparison.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I notice big difference between 6.5s and 8s...going to a 12 would be pretty easy to hear especially once you start to get on it.



Patrick Bateman said:


> A couple years back I did the math on those JBL midbasses, and realized that they were capable of doing about 10-20dB more than your typical car audio midbass.
> 
> Going from 6.5" to 12" doesn't seem like a big difference, but the key is that their EBP is high and their power handling is unobtanium.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't think there has been a car since the GN that could do the kind of output it could do. RC's Caddy was said (by him) that it was a better sounding car than the GN, but could not max the SPL and other stuff like the GN could do.


What was the output of the Grand National ?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

thehatedguy said:


> L'daddy was the SPL track.
> 
> Eric's Sable was said to do 125ish on L'daddy with his front stage- a pair of CD2 horns and a Zapco Z600C2 on them and a pair of IDQ8s with a Zapco Z600C2 on each.
> 
> So forgive me that I don't believe for a minute that a pair of 5.25 components will/was as loud as Eric's Sable.


If you look at post #28 I corrected my math.

If the bottom end was about 135 DB then around 150 Htz and up starts at about 115 and moves upwards towards the high frequencies.

I just put a sound level meter in and did a test run yesterday. 

1. I'm down 1000 watts and two 12" drivers as they fried. ( the 12"s played from 40- 80 )
2. I can't turn my bass up as the 15" subs are now playing 20 - 80 instead of 20-40 and skip the CD player. 15" subs and cd player both mounted to ceiling.

3. With all these issues, I was able to hit 117 with the bass turned down (due to the skipping CD issue.) So my calculations were spot on. This was with just a normal track from a redbook CD. Not a SPL track.

I just had a math mistake which i corrected in post # 28


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

T3mpest said:


> 6.5 to 12 is like 4x the cone area.. Anyone who has seen a 12 and a 6.5 side by side know how different that is.


The math surprised me. You can pickup about 10dB by going from a 6" woofer to a 12" woofer. But porting the midbass and using a midbass with a high EBP made a big difference too.

I can't figure out why nobody ports their midbasses.


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## The Tube Doctor (Nov 24, 2009)

I recall having seen and heard the GN at the Speakerworks booth during CES, many long years ago. There are, no doubt, photos or negatives in amongst the massive stack of archives I horde. The hand-out they provided at the show, indicated a MTM, left-to-right, under each side of the dash. 
Woofers at that time, were housed in a trunk-devouring enclosure. Long before the development of their popular AP systems.

One point about the SPL of those early competition systems which I feel is being overlooked, is the venerable RTA 3050 which was commonly used. The supplied microphone was simply not capable of maintaining linearity when exposed to SPL in excess of 120 db. The capsule overloaded, and readings became random.

During one IASCA event in Vancouver, I obtained an RTA and mic from a well-regarded pro audio supplier. The combination was calibrated, and given to me with the assurance of accuracy to 140db. 
The ensuing outcry from competitors who had, just a week before, scored 136db, and found their systems now indicating a vastly reduced number, was nearly as deafening as the judging lanes. 

In Vancouver, at that time, Phil Gee, at Arrow Car Stereo in Burnaby, was using pro audio driver and horns long before the rest of us caught on. He had remarkable foresight and a very good ear. Those systems may seem crude by today's standards, but remember that the industry was then in its infancy.

It was fun, being loud was cool, and we all kept our best secrets closely held. Disinformation was part of maintaining your competitive edge. I'm sure this tactic was well implemented by Speakerworks.

We had the opportunity to hang out with Mark Fukuda, who was campaigning his yellow Chevy Blazer, and shared some tricks that the judges might have frowned upon. The VSE Quantum he used, was configured to make a couple of configuration changes between SPL and SQ judging. Switching out all but two of the subs, gave it some useful advantages. If there was one competitor with this tactic, chances are pretty good that there were more than a few strategies for providing a good balance between SPL and SQ.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I remember it had to be around , 1990 (+\-) I believe it was a regional final it was held in the rain at a speedway in meridian Idaho , the show stopper was the fosgate van and Orion van ,and a hifonics convertible Cadillac . The fosgate van has a 4th order band pass with 4 pro 12" and a back seat Nintendo that everyone got to play. Not a single car there was using horns that I saw there. This was the power 1000 and hcca era IIRC .


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

Tube Doctor, thank you for comfirming a point that some of us have tried to make repeatedly in this post. once a vehicle was built to succeed in the lanes, it was a battle to maintain the competitive edge. the competition scene was an entirely different animal back then.if you were winning it wasnt long before someone would attempt to copy your formula. so smoke and mirrors were a sad necessity.





The Tube Doctor said:


> I recall having seen and heard the GN at the Speakerworks booth during CES, many long years ago. There are, no doubt, photos or negatives in amongst the massive stack of archives I horde. The hand-out they provided at the show, indicated a MTM, left-to-right, under each side of the dash.
> Woofers at that time, were housed in a trunk-devouring enclosure. Long before the development of their popular AP systems.
> 
> One point about the SPL of those early competition systems which I feel is being overlooked, is the venerable RTA 3050 which was commonly used. The supplied microphone was simply not capable of maintaining linearity when exposed to SPL in excess of 120 db. The capsule overloaded, and readings became random.
> ...


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## dawaro (Jul 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> L'daddy was the SPL track.
> 
> Eric's Sable was said to do 125ish on L'daddy with his front stage- a pair of CD2 horns and a Zapco Z600C2 on them and a pair of IDQ8s with a Zapco Z600C2 on each.
> 
> So forgive me that I don't believe for a minute that a pair of 5.25 components will/was as loud as Eric's Sable.


I cant say what anyone else's car is or isn't capable of but having actually worked on the Sable re-build from the original Opti-Drive amps to the Zapco amps, along with new enclosures for the 8's and IB mount for the IDW-15's, which Eric will probably never forgive me for sanding through the gel-coat on...

I can promise you this car was so loud it could make your ears bleed and beg for more. IIRC there where 5 Zapco Z600C2's. One for the horns, a pair for the 8's and a pair for the IDW-15's.

We spent 2 weeks straight at the shop trying to get ready for finals that year so some of the details are a little blurry, but man that was an impressive ride. I actually broke down and bought my first set of horns after that experience.


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## HulkSmash (May 22, 2011)

I'm looking, but can't find the L'daddy track. Any help?

I have downloaded the old Don Dorsey Toccata and Fugue tracks.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ZMXG9A/180-2154970-9814668?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

115 to 120 db across the spectrum above 100 hz sounds about right. BTW this is LOUD.

I'm not sure I follow this comment:


> With all these issues, I was able to hit 117 with *the bass turned down* (due to the skipping CD issue.) So my calculations were spot on.


Turn the bass below 100 hz OFF and give it a whirl. Assuming the boston components are more efficient than the old ones we can start with an efficiency of 90 db at 1W (assumption). To make the math easy lets use a target of 120db. 10W gets you 100db. 100W gets you 110db. 120db would be 1000W. This assumes no thermal compression or other issues. It gets even uglier if your Bostons are like the only ones I owned and were about 84db sensitivity. Even with today's cheap power it is tough.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

SSSnake hits the nail on the head. For the better part of ten years I think I was OVERestimating how much driver I need to do 1000hz, and UNDERestimating how much driver I need to do 200hz.

IE, you need a LOT of displacement to do 100-200hz justice, but surprisingly little at 1000hz.

I have a partially finished calculator that really breaks it down. Basically you put in the size of the cone and the xmax, and it will tell you how much SPL can be generated. I really need to finish that thing.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> SSSnake hits the nail on the head. For the better part of ten years I think I was OVERestimating how much driver I need to do 1000hz, and UNDERestimating how much driver I need to do 200hz.
> 
> IE, you need a LOT of displacement to do 100-200hz justice, but surprisingly little at 1000hz.
> 
> I have a partially finished calculator that really breaks it down. Basically you put in the size of the cone and the xmax, and it will tell you how much SPL can be generated. I really need to finish that thing.


 I would say as much as 100-250 even 315. Somehow a lot of displacement at 250 is my cup of tea


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I would also add , there's nothing like when your large midbasses plays bass and it becomes part of the song and not so much a speaker falling on its face


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> I would bet donuts to dollars that when the article was published in 1989 it had the horns in it and they said they were a 4" and tweeter.


This is most probably the real version. I spent many hours at SpeakerWorks with Eric, his brother, Patrick, and his father, Roger, and the 4" mid and tweeter story was just that, a story, as the horns were meant to be a secret and kept a secret for as long as possible.

Although, the only ones who really know for sure are the Holdaways and they definitely like to preserve the mystique and the legend surrounding the Grand National.


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## SteveH! (Nov 7, 2005)

kevin k. said:


> This is most probably the real version. I spent many hours at SpeakerWorks with Eric, his brother, Patrick, and his father, Roger, and the 4" mid and tweeter story was just that, a story, as the horns were meant to be a secret and kept a secret for as long as possible.
> 
> Although, the only ones who really know for sure are the Holdaways and they definitely like to preserve the mystique and the legend surrounding the Grand National.


thanks for confirmation


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

kevin k. said:


> This is most probably the real version. I spent many hours at SpeakerWorks with Eric, his brother, Patrick, and his father, Roger, and the 4" mid and tweeter story was just that, a story, as the horns were meant to be a secret and kept a secret for as long as possible.
> 
> Although, the only ones who really know for sure are the Holdaways and they definitely like to preserve the mystique and the legend surrounding the Grand National.



That's pretty much what I expected but had hoped for a better story...


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