# Whats the difference between ES Horns vs. USD Audio Waveguides ?



## ZapcoTravis

Can someone tell me what the major difference is between Eric Stevens ID full body horns and USD Audio's waveguides ?

I have used USD's waveguides before but never have the Image Dynamics Horns.

Are the mouth of both about the same size width and height and depth ?

I have a 1991 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer Edition that I want to use my USD waveguides or Eric Stevens full body ID horns with a set of 8 inch mid/bass speaker in the kicks.

Any tips will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Travis


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## Eric Stevens

I wish I had the technical data handy so I could post it and let it speak for itself but it has been too many years since I did the tests and would have to re run them.

The design of the horn has significant and very noticeable differences in the performance of a HLCD system. In fact the horn has a stronger influence on the final sound than does the compression driver. For example a average quality compression driver and on well executed horn will sound better than the best compression driver on a horn with design flaws.

The horn controls frequency response and dispersion pattern or directivity. 
With the ES horns they were designed to direct more energy towards the opposite listener and this shows in their response with up to 6dB more energy being directed towards the opposite side of the car. With the USD they use or recommend inserts in their horns to block output and control dispersion. The problem with using an insert in the mouth of the horn is it will have a negative effect on the frequency response of the horn. 

The frequency response of both horns is quite different with the ES horns having a much smoother and controlled frequency response. This is starting to sound like I am just putting them down so I will stop unless asked to expand further. 

My favorite suggestion to people was to take a head unit and one of each brand of horn with the same drivers on them and use the balance control and fade from one to the other and listen to the differences. It is quite an eye opener. With not midbass it will be hollow sounding but it really hilights the differences. 

ric


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## quality_sound

^^^He's not wrong, and he's not bragging or pitting USD down. His horns are MILES better. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## Blu

^ I'm hoping to experience that for myself soon... just ordered a pair of mini-horn bodies from Eric yesterday.

Can't wait for the weather to get more "install friendly"!


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## minbari

have never heard the USD horns, but I like my minihorns. Never did a horn setup before this one and I dont think I would go back to a conventional mid/tweet setup again. sensitivity aside, they just sound really nice. very snappy without being bright and they image very well without even working too hard.

when I bought my latest car, I actually made sure the horns would fit, lol.

I would suggest that you make sure you have a decent EQ though. there are some EQing that has to be done, IMHO. 2.5khz has a bit of a peak and as with any horn, they roll off sooner than tweeters and need a little help above 12-14khz.


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## quality_sound

The full sized horns don't roll off like the mini horns. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy

They should roll off more due to the increased air load on the driver.


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## ZapcoTravis

minbari said:


> have never heard the USD horns, but I like my minihorns. Never did a horn setup before this one and I dont think I would go back to a conventional mid/tweet setup again. sensitivity aside, they just sound really nice. very snappy without being bright and they image very well without even working too hard.
> 
> when I bought my latest car, I actually made sure the horns would fit, lol.
> 
> I would suggest that you make sure you have a decent EQ though. there are some EQing that has to be done, IMHO. 2.5khz has a bit of a peak and as with any horn, they roll off sooner than tweeters and need a little help above 12-14khz.


I will be using Zapco Z series amplifiers and was thinking for a processor possibly a Mosconi GLADEN DSP 4to6.
Will the Mosconi GLADEN DSP 4to6 do the job ?

I'm not sure what head unit I want to use yet so I would like some suggestions on a good head unit.

I have been out of the car audio scene for 15 years so I am way behind on what is good and what is not equipment wise.


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## minbari

any good amp will do it. just remember they are 8ohm, so you will get half the wattage of the 4ohm rating. This is not ussually an issue. I only have 30 watts going to mine and even with the gains all the way down, they get insanely loud.

ya, I beleive those have a 31band eq on each channel, correct?


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## subwoofery

quality_sound said:


> The full sized horns don't roll off like the mini horns.
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


I thought it was the other way around? 

Kelvin


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## ZapcoTravis

minbari said:


> ya, I beleive those have a 31band eq on each channel, correct?


Yes from the specs on their web site it says "Parametric and Graphic EQ with up to 30 (para-graphical) bands per channel pair"

GLADEN DSP 4to6 / DSP 4to6 SP-DIF

Eric Stevens suggested either Beyma 8G40 or JBL 2118.
I'm really excited to give Eric Stevens horns a try with the mid/bass speakers he suggest.


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## minbari

good to go then.

only reason I wouldnt use the JBL is impedance. beelive they only come in 8ohm or 16ohm. getting enough power to keep up with the horns is hard enough without cutting power in half


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## thehatedguy

But the JBLs are 96 or 97 dB sensitive.

Eric's suggestions are looking pretty good  I don't know anyone who likes the 2118 lol.


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## Blu

thehatedguy said:


> But the JBLs are 96 or 97 dB sensitive.
> 
> Eric's suggestions are looking pretty good  I don't know anyone who likes the 2118 lol.


Were yours door or kick mounted?


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## thehatedguy

The 4to6 should be plenty of processing power for a 3 way (horns, MB, sub) setup.


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## thehatedguy

Only had them for a bit in my own car, but the recons were questionable...said they were JBL recons but didn't look like it to me so I sent them back and got a refund. But I have heard and liked them in every install that I have seen them in...and I think all of those were kickpanels.



Blu said:


> Were yours door or kick mounted?


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## minbari

thehatedguy said:


> But the JBLs are 96 or 97 dB sensitive.
> 
> Eric's suggestions are looking pretty good  I don't know anyone who likes the 2118 lol.




not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. the Beymas are 95db 1w/1m, lower FS and have better xmax. On paper they look better. *shrugs*


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## thehatedguy

No I'm not being sarcastic.

What would the real difference be between a 4 ohm 95 dB sensitive speaker and an 8 ohm 97 dB sensitive speaker...not much, so not much to gain by going 4 ohm.

You can buy the Beyma new, but the JBL is used. The JBL is probably a little cheaper but no warranty...but excellent resell. The JBL's frame is larger than the Beyma.

But how much xmax do you need when you use them as a midbass at a sane frequency?


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## Canopy

ZapcoTravis said:


> I have been out of the car audio scene for 15 years so I am way behind on what is good and what is not equipment wise.


Sounds like you are in the same boat as me. Just got back into car audio after a long break and am starting to get a sense of whats what again as far amps and equipment goes.

I just received my ES full size horns and went with Eric's suggestion of the Beyma 8G40. So far I am very impressed and feel as others do in that I will likely never go back to a cone mid/tweet setup. Highly recommended.

As far as amps go I am running the horns off of a small 75 watt per channel amp and had to turn the gain all the way down and reduce the headunit output by 1 db to match my sub amp which was the first to clip when using my O scope to set the gains. So very little wattage needed to run the horns.


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## ZapcoTravis

I use to install for FOSS Car Audio in Tacoma, Wa. back in 1995 and when I left FOSS I got out of car audio all together, but in the last year I have been wanting to do another system and get back into to groove of car audio.

Through the years I have followed a few people in the industry, one person in particular that I was always inspired by his HLCD systems is Mic Wallace "IDteg".
I have always wanted to build a system like his with the mid/bass speaker in the floorboards in front of the seats firing straight up, or in the upper foot wells by the firewall.
Mic Wallace has always been a inspiration to me.

What drivers are most people using with the mini and full body ES horns ?

So it appears from what I have been reading, I won't need much power for the horns.
So I'm guessing that the Zapco Z-150.2 would be a great candidate for the horns ?

Would the same amp be a good candidate for the Beyma 8G40 also ?


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## Canopy

ZapcoTravis said:


> Would the same amp be a good candidate for the Beyma 8G40 also ?


I am also running 75 watts to the Beymas currently and after level matching with the rest of my system I am still far from a clipping. Though the gains are up more than on the horns. I might try a larger amp to see if some extra headroom will sound better.


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## minbari

thehatedguy said:


> No I'm not being sarcastic.
> 
> What would the real difference be between a 4 ohm 95 dB sensitive speaker and an 8 ohm 97 dB sensitive speaker...not much, so not much to gain by going 4 ohm.
> 
> You can buy the Beyma new, but the JBL is used. The JBL is probably a little cheaper but no warranty...but excellent resell. The JBL's frame is larger than the Beyma.
> 
> But how much xmax do you need when you use them as a midbass at a sane frequency?




all very good points!

no idea, lol. I know even on my x65 at sane or otherwise volume level, even the 3.5mm of xmax is enough.


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## minbari

Canopy said:


> I am also running 75 watts to the Beymas currently and after level matching with the rest of my system I am still far from a clipping. Though the gains are up more than on the horns. I might try a larger amp to see if some extra headroom will sound better.


I only have 6.5" midbass for my system, but I am running 30 watts to the horns and 150 watts to each midbass. the midbass amplifier runs out of juice well before the horn amp does.


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## thehatedguy

What drivers depends on what you can fit.

For a 2 way with 6s, the 18Sound 6 is pretty nice.

For a 2 way with 8s, the JBL 2118, Beyma 8G40, BMS 8S215, B&C 8NDL51 or 8PS21 and 18Sound 8MB400 are nice. I hear good things about the Eminence Beta 8s

For a 2 way with 10s, the Beyma 10G40 and Eminence Delta10, Kappa10 or Kappalite 2510 would be nice.

Faital Pro, heard good things about the 8Fe200 and 10Fe200...and Some folks really really like the 8PR200.


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## thehatedguy

Heard the Faital Pro 10PR300 was a poor man's AE TD10 in terms of distortion performance. It might be worth looking at as well. Pretty low Qts, Fs of 60, can be had in 4 ohms, but pretty pricey at about $205 ea. Never heard it though.

Just depends on your budget, what kind of space you are looking at taking up, etc.


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## Blu

^^^ That is some great reference info for anyone looking for some potential pairings with horns! 

(I'll be using a pair of Veritas AB-218's  )


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## thehatedguy

With a 3 way, you have a lot more options for midranges and midbasses.

For a 6" or so midrange I like the Audax PR170M0 and PHL 1120s. The PHLs are basically beefy versions of the Audax, but PHL is next to impossible to find. I was told the B&C 6MD30 was literally a drop in replacement for the 1120, so I would really really be looking at it for a midrange in a 3 way. The Faital Pro 6Fe200 would probably be pretty nice for the money there too. Just saw Faital Pro has a 6PR122 that might be interesting.

For an 8" midrange the JBL 2118 and BMS 8S215 are pretty sweet. The Faital Pro 8Fe200 probably would be nice there too.

Lots of more things out there, but those are things I have either used myself or know someone who I trust has used and liked.


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## thehatedguy

I had heard those were pretty nice speakers. Someone once told me they are pretty similar in specs to the JBL 2118, but I could never verify that or saw any numbers for the Veritas speaker- the Veritas website was long gone when I heard that. And they look cool with the fiberglass cones.



Blu said:


> ^^^ That is some great reference info for anyone looking for some potential pairings with horns!
> 
> (I'll be using a pair of Veritas AB-218's  )


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## thehatedguy

And for someone wanting more bottom end from a 2 way setup with 8s, Eric said some of his Malaysian (or was it Indonesian?) guys like the Silver Flute 8s. It's a really nice speaker for the money...no really nasty break ups on the cone, low Fs in the 30s, good sensitivity- 93 dB for the 4 ohm model, 5mm xmax, and less than $40 each retail. Eric says if you liked the IDQ8, you might would enjoy those. I think the 6s are pretty similar.

And Dynaudio used to be pretty popular with horn guys too. I like Dyn speakers.


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## Blu

thehatedguy said:


> I had heard those were pretty nice speakers. Someone once told me they are pretty similar in specs to the JBL 2118, but I could never verify that or saw any numbers for the Veritas speaker- the Veritas website was long gone when I heard that. And they look cool with the fiberglass cones.


I had heard the same reference to the JBL 2118 but have no idea how accurate that is. Sadly the specs that were made available at the time were minimal to say the least...
Mark Eldridge used them in the 4-Runner and had referred to them very positively. And yeah they do have a very cool look to them!

OP - apologies for the brief de-rail of your thread! :blush:


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## thehatedguy

No no no, I think I took the thread into the ditch...lol. But I am pretty opinionated on what is "good" when it comes to midbasses and horns. 

Every time I call Eric about something it is normally like this- "Will this be the speaker to make me forget how much I like the 2118?" I mean there are speakers that do things better than the JBL- the Audax has more snap in the midrange, the BMS is lower distortion, the 18Sound can play lower. But to me as a complete package, it is hard to beat- lot (for an 8) of snap, pop, and dynamics that just makes the music come alive and realistic. I have no doubt the BMS could do it too, but you would have to ask Mikey about the BMS and JBL comparisons (or read his old thread on the subject).

Just something about that JBL sound that I haven't found anywhere else yet.


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## GONZO151

I have owned apair of usd audio waveguide with the basic drivers they offered at the time and I was very unhappy with the imaging .the music seamed to always be heavy right or left I never got a center image so I gave up and sold them. Years later I wanted to give hlcd another try so I found that there was this guy Eric Stevens making and selling waveguide so I hunted him down on this site and ordered a set of full size horns with pro drivers .here is the truth I made my mounts ,installed them turned on the head unit and night and day compaired to my first set of usd horns I had a center image ,right was right and left was left , now I just have tweet them in , that's were reading every post on this section lead me to find out that Eric Stevens wasn't some online guy just selling horn but was the real deal .and the post that he has on eq tunning is priceless it helped remove that "hollow horn" tone that hlcd have out of the box . This is just my experience maybe others have had better luck with usd audio hlcd.


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## ZapcoTravis

Well I just got off the phone with Eric Stevens.
I got to tell you, he is full of very good information which helped me out extremely.
After discussing with him about the system I want to build, he helped me decide what equipment and speakers to use.

So as it stand right now, the system will consist of the fallowing.

ES full body horns with his pro drivers powered by a single Zapco Z-150.2 amp
A pair of Beyma 8G40 8 inch mid/bass speakers powered by two Zapco Z-150.2's ( one amp per speaker running mono.

I haven't decided on what 12 inch subs I want all I know is I want four of them powered by two Zapco Z-1k amps.

Any suggestions on what 12 inch subwoofers to look at please feel free and let me know.

For processing I will be using a Mosconi GLADEN DSP 4to6.

I would like to thank Eric Stevens for taking the time to talk with me on the phone, you were a huge help on so many questions.


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## Blu

Sounds like you are getting a really nice system together!


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## thehatedguy

Mmm...for 12s, what about some JBL WGTis if you have the space?

Eric keeps his pimp hand strong that's for sure.


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## GONZO151

"Eric keeps his pimp hand strong that's for sure." :laugh: LMAO


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## ZapcoTravis

thehatedguy said:


> Mmm...for 12s, what about some JBL WGTis if you have the space?
> 
> Eric keeps his pimp hand strong that's for sure.


Are these the JBL subs you are talking about ?
W12GTi MkII | Top Rated 12 inch 4000-watt DVC Subwoofer | JBL US

Those subs are monsters.
Maybe that is why Alma Gates used the GTI series subs


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## thehatedguy

That's them.

I really like the JL 12W6v2s too, never heard the v3s.


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## ZapcoTravis

With those JBL subs I could use just two of them and sound phenomenal, but with four of them I think it would be more for the cool factor.

I noticed the JBL site does not say how much air volume for a sealed enclosure for that sub.
Anyone know the sealed enclosure specs. ?


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## thehatedguy

Yeah, a pair of them would be plenty of output especially if you ported them. 4 would be dumb silly.


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## Blu

You can find the specs in this thread

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/78809-default-ideal-enclosure-jbl-w12-gti-mkii.html


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## ZapcoTravis

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, a pair of them would be plenty of output especially if you ported them. 4 would be dumb silly.


Yeah I'm not out to crack or break windshields I just want subs that are very musically detailed in a sealed enclosure.


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## thehatedguy

They are beasts ported.


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## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Eric keeps his pimp hand strong that's for sure.




:huh2:


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## Eric Stevens

ZapcoTravis said:


> I would like to thank Eric Stevens for taking the time to talk with me on the phone, you were a huge help on so many questions.


You are welcome 

Eric


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## thehatedguy

Smacking down the nay sayers of horns and bad advice.



Eric Stevens said:


> :huh2:


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## edzyy

minbari said:


> have never heard the USD horns, but I like my minihorns. Never did a horn setup before this one and I dont think I would go back to a conventional mid/tweet setup again. sensitivity aside, they just sound really nice. very snappy without being bright and they image very well without even working too hard.


X2

Conventional speakers really stand no chance against a horn/high efficient midbass combo


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## thehatedguy

I got my first horns back in 95 or 96 from Eric/Image Dynamics (they had just went to urethane from the fiberglass whenever that was), and I had tried a few things before that...and tried a few things after that. But kept coming back to horns. Every now and again I will fall off the wagon and try something else- like I did with my last system, but keep coming back to the horns.


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## Horsemanwill

if your going sealed Andy recommended 1.5 per sub. that's what i have mine in. if you have the room for ported he strongly said to go that route but i i think the box was like 2 cubes per sub. might have been 2.5. my system consists of dual Silver Flute 6.5" per front door, a pair of ES Full size ultra drivers and 2 wgti 12s. it sounds awesome


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## Eric Stevens

thehatedguy said:


> Smacking down the nay sayers of horns and bad advice.


Got it 

I didnt catch that one.

Eric


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## ZapcoTravis

Are Alumapro M16 subs any good ?
A friend of mine has three of them brand new still in the box he offered to me.


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## Patrick Bateman

ZapcoTravis said:


> Can someone tell me what the major difference is between Eric Stevens ID full body horns and USD Audio's waveguides ?
> 
> I have used USD's waveguides before but never have the Image Dynamics Horns.
> 
> Are the mouth of both about the same size width and height and depth ?
> 
> I have a 1991 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer Edition that I want to use my USD waveguides or Eric Stevens full body ID horns with a set of 8 inch mid/bass speaker in the kicks.
> 
> Any tips will be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you
> Travis


Horns and waveguides are quite an art.
Check out the thread named "great waveguide list" at diyaudio.
If you study the polar measurements, you'll notice that you can have two horns that take up a volume that's similar, with a width and height that's similar, but with different responses.

As I see it, the two most critical parts of a waveguide or a horn are the throat and the mouth. You really have to designs those carefully or else the entire design will sound like crap.

By the way, finding this out the hard way, I'm in the process of trashing some Pyle PH714s horns that I've been tinkering with. They look good on paper but they just don't sound very good. (At least in my application they don't.)


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> I got my first horns back in 95 or 96 from Eric/Image Dynamics (they had just went to urethane from the fiberglass whenever that was), and I had tried a few things before that...and tried a few things after that. But kept coming back to horns. Every now and again I will fall off the wagon and try something else- like I did with my last system, but keep coming back to the horns.


I'm putting together some horns for the Mazda.
Much to my surprise, it looks like I might be able to cram four midranges onto one horn.

I'm surprised this is even possible :O

Updates will be posted to my thread on diyaudio named "edge of no control."

It's about to get interesting...


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## thehatedguy

Been watching that one.

The only thing left I want to try is coaxes...haven't scratched that itch yet.


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## thehatedguy

Oh, might want to try the JBL 228Hs if you can find them...JBL Pro Parts might would sell to you direct, or go through a JBL service center to get them.


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> Oh, might want to try the JBL 228Hs if you can find them...JBL Pro Parts might would sell to you direct, or go through a JBL service center to get them.


Wow nice catch. I've never seen this driver. I'd been thinking about picking up a couple of the Celestion eights for $50, but I'd pay $110 for JBL quality and a larger voice coil.

When I googled around I found that there's an 'econowave' variant that uses that weird JBL compression driver I stumbled across, along with a 6.5" waveguide.

That would make a nice combination in the car; the 6.5" waveguide should be good to 2khz, and there are plenty of good drivers that can pick it up from there.


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## thehatedguy

I don't know if the little guy is a compression driver or a tweeter...would have to go check out the E-wave thread again and see what it is.

Last time I priced the 228s they were about 180 each, but JBL Pro Parts wouldn't sell them directly to me...I would have to go through an authorized JBL Pro Service center to order them, but they'll see everything else over the counter including the waveguides including the cool ones used on the Control ceiling speakers that when said and done look sort of Synergy-ish with the tweeter coaxailly mounted infront of the woofer cones that exit through the waveguides.

Maybe you should check those out, I've been pondering in them for a couple of years.e


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know if the little guy is a compression driver or a tweeter...would have to go check out the E-wave thread again and see what it is.
> 
> Last time I priced the 228s they were about 180 each, but JBL Pro Parts wouldn't sell them directly to me...I would have to go through an authorized JBL Pro Service center to order them, but they'll see everything else over the counter including the waveguides including the cool ones used on the Control ceiling speakers that when said and done look sort of Synergy-ish with the tweeter coaxailly mounted infront of the woofer cones that exit through the waveguides.
> 
> Maybe you should check those out, I've been pondering in them for a couple of years.e











It's the previous version of the compression driver I'm using for my Synergy horns that are slooooowly coming together for my living room.

When I first measured the 2408H-1, I was trying to figure out why JBL changed the phase plug. It didn't seem to be noticeably smoother than the BMS that it's based on, and to my ears, doesn't sound any better or worse.

But recently I discovered HolmImpulse, and discovered that the 2408H-1 has an insanely high sensitivity. I don't have an SPL meter, but it *appears* to be as much as 10dB more sensitive than my Celestion CDX1-1425.

So that 2408H-1 is a beast. If you look at it compared to my Celestions, you can see why it's so sensitive, the motor on it has a hunk of neodymium that's nearly as big as a BMS 4550, but with a smaller diaphragm.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah I've been watching them on eBay the last few weeks...sometimes you can catch them for a good price. Last year you would be lucky to get $40 for one used and 2407s were lucky to fetch $100 used...boy what a year's difference makes.

It is hard for me to spend $80-100 on the used JBL when I can get the Celestion for less than that new. But the JBL can probably play lower.


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## thehatedguy

Nevermind the $180 each, everywhere that I've looked they are about $100-110 each.

Specs are here:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf


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## ZapcoTravis

Thanks everyone for the great info and suggestions.
I'm really stuck on which subwoofer setup I want to go with, either four 10's, two 12's or four 12's.
I don't know what would work great with a horn and 8 inch mid/bass setup.
I have been looking at Alumapro and the Image Dynamics IDQ subs.
My new install will be for SQ and it will be in a 1991 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer.

Any suggestion on the ideal sub setup with horns and 8 inch mid/bass speakers ?
Thanks again


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## thehatedguy

How much you want to spend and what kind of power/amp you putting on the subs?

I know what I would do, but it's easy to spend other people's money.


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## edzyy

4 12's!


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## ZapcoTravis

thehatedguy said:


> How much you want to spend and what kind of power/amp you putting on the subs?
> 
> I know what I would do, but it's easy to spend other people's money.


I will be using two Zapco Z-1KD amps for the subs. 
Here are the specs.

Zapco Z-1KD http://www.zapco.com/zprodz1k.html
1 Channel Low range SQ class D
Power @ 1Ω: 1 x 1000 watts
RMS Rated Power @ < 0.05%THD
Power @ 1Ω: 1 x 1000 watts
Power @ 2Ω: 1 x 560 watts
Power @ 4Ω: 1 x 300 watts
2 amps bridged @ 2Ω : 1700 watts

For the ES horns and the pair of Beyma 8G40 8 inch mid/bass speakers I will be using three Zapco Z-150.2 amps, one amp for the horns and two amps for the Beyma 8G40's (one amp per mid/bass speaker)

Zapco Z-150.2 http://www.zapco.com/zprodz152.html
2 Channel H-E SQ Full range class A/B
Power @ 2Ω: 2 x 250 watts
Power @ 4Ω: 1 x 500 watts
RMS Rated Power @ < 0.05%THD
Power @ 2Ω: 2 x 250 watts
Power @ 4Ω: 2 x 150 watts
Bridged @ 4Ω: 1 x 500 watts


I would like to keep the cost of the subs under $1,000.00
I'm wanting to use subs that use small enclosures.

Thank you


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