# PWK the end-all be-all of box designs?



## travis_m (Dec 11, 2011)

A little confused here, this PWK dude claims to be using some newly software he developed yet is still doing standard slot ported boxes and attaching a huge definition name. I'm guessing its to make people feel their $60 was worthy spent? 

Forgive me if I'm wrong but this dude is preaching on some logic that seems rhetorical and people are buying this?


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## bigdexxx (Oct 27, 2011)

Not familiar with PWK? Any links?


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

ever hear someone say they've got the fastest car in town?


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## Micksh (Jul 27, 2011)

I checked out his website at PWK Designs and I'm not sure he's be end-all to enclosure design, but I admit he has some interesting ideas and some very nice craftsmanship.


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

I've seen a couple of his vids on YouTube. I think he's playing around with some sort of modified transmision line enclosures. Running a 5-1/4 or 6-1/2, that supposedly sounds like 2 10's or 2 12's.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

he's definitely a big name, and a lot of people seem to think he's a big deal. I don't have any first-hand experience with his stuff, but I've heard many swear by his designs. 

If anybody has had first-hand experience, please don't hesitate...


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

PWK does have his Engineering Doctorate and utilizes that skill to achieve sonic purity. My hat's off him!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

I've built two of his designs and have a third that I haven't gotten around to yet.

#1










#2










First one is for 2 JBL GTI 15". Ridiculously smooth, accurate and a ton more output than the ported box it replaced.

Second one is for 2 HAT Imagine 6.5" subs. More of the same, but without the output. This was for my personal vehicle and if I could have fit 4, I'd keep it.

So, my experience with his designs is good.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

Transmission line and horns.. He seems to be all about the horns..

And I agree, his craftsmanship is A1!


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## aIIan (Sep 29, 2011)

I don't know much about boxes but dude sure makes them pretty and I've never heard of anything but good things about his box's results.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He doesn't have a Ph.D in Engineering.



robert_wrath said:


> PWK does have his Engineering Doctorate and utilizes that skill to achieve sonic purity. My hat's off him!


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I've had two designs from him, one of which Pete built the box. Both designs were different in what I wanted out of them. If you are detailed in exactly what you are looking for he can deliver. 

Here's a link to the box he built for me...

Digital Designs DD1510 Ducted HellBoy « PWK Designs


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

He doesn't have a Ph.D in Engineering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_wrath View Post
PWK does have his Engineering Doctorate and utilizes that skill to achieve sonic purity. My hat's off him!

Not sure I would argue the difference between an Engineering doctorate and\or a PHD in same. Education requirements are typically the same, the rest is semantics. 

*definitions:* PhD means a doctorate of philosophy. That doesnt actually mean your a philosopher, its just an archaic term, everyone except Doctors of medicine are doctors of philosophy.

The term "philosophy" does not refer solely to the modern field of philosophy, but is used in a broader sense in accordance with its original Greek meaning, which is "love of wisdom". In most of Europe, all fields other than theology, law and medicine were traditionally known as philosophy.

all that said, his credentials (on paper) seem solid and his designs and builds look to be very well done.


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> I've built two of his designs and have a third that I haven't gotten around to yet. So, my experience with his designs is good.


Just curious. Do you submit your sub specs and what sound characteristics you're looking for, then get a blue print? What does that set you back? (if you don't mind me asking) I love trying new designs, and I've always got spare time and an abundant supply of MDF. I've seen unusual designs and tried to replecate them by guesstimating, but not knowing all the math involved, and using different drivers, usually ends in less than desirable results.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You have seen some formal education credentials? I haven't seen any.


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## fisc2307 (Oct 29, 2011)

From what I understand he has a masters in acoustic engineering, and in some of his videos you can see the software he uses. It seems to be a particularly advanced enclosure modeling software that takes into account the shape and size of the car as well the position of the driver. The form you fill out asks for the model of the speaker, the model and year and style of your car, what you want out of the enclosure, and some other things. With this information he models and enclosure and anticipates the frequency response at the listeners ears. I have not used his enclosure, but his work is extremely highly regarded and he has more than the credentials to back up his work. If you have watched his videos, you don't always need a complex design, sometimes a simple sealed design is exactly what you need. If you're already spending $2000 on an audio system, whats an extra $60 to get consultation from a master of acoustics.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Regardless of his education, the fact is he produces results. Like anybody who sells something, you can't please everyone. in general the feedback i've seen from designs he's made has been very very good. I believe he designed the enclosure for Scott Buwalda's highest scoring SQ vehicle. that by itself is a pretty good endorsement. is he the "god" of enclosure design, No. but he is shown him self to be very very good at what he does.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

He's not a god. I'm actually pretty sure I saw him on DIYAUDIO asking questions to one of the more advanced box builders about doing a tapped horn... He has a good knowledge of vehicle acoustics though and knows how to use akabak.. I doubt he uses some super advanced program he designed himself that can model particle collsions at the headrest (yes that's an actual claim I've heard people use)...


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

If you get what you want out of it, $60 isn't bad at all. Especially if you are building it yourself. I was thinking it would be in the $100-$150, and maybe scare some people off. I'll definatly keep that in mind, for future reference.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Want to make a wager about the Masters in Acoustical Engineering?


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## fisc2307 (Oct 29, 2011)

not really, i just remember hearing something about a masters in acoustics. i am confident enough to say that he has at least a bachelors in something engineering.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

I've message him before and he replys. The thing is he takes in to consideration everything from: vehicle, music type, user goals, parameters, listing habits, and other crap we dont understand to make the best enclosures avaiable to the user and his woofers.

Not all subwoofers required the same exact enclosure, yet alone the same desing and vehicle. Some woofers may sound better in different vehicles and enclosures, am pretty sure we all know that. But finding out which one is best for what you want to listing or expect is not as simple as glueing a couple of pieces of wood and calling it a day.

If it was that simple everyone would have the best enclosure.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> You have seen some formal education credentials?  I haven't seen any.


Does it really matter......we are talking about a box with a speaker(s) in it....:laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Want to make a wager about the Masters in Acoustical Engineering?


So would his designs sound better if he did

or maybe it would allow him to charge more for his service


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## fisc2307 (Oct 29, 2011)

trojan fan said:


> So would his designs sound better if he did
> 
> or maybe it would allow him to charge more for his service


In effect he should be able to use more advanced software for modeling and make proper assumptions based on the information given. Additionally, enclosures like T-lines and Horns are actually incredibly difficult to design because the "rules" for these enclosures very incredibly. Understanding how the shape of a room and the density of its walls and the material that coats them all effect acoustic resonance and with ultimately effect the width, depth, and height of the sound stage. This is why people spend years in school to attain this knowledge and understand how to apply it. There is a lot that goes in to speaker design, enclosure design, and placement and most people follow the rules of thumb because it would be too difficult or they just do not have the knowledge to model and determine how sound would pass through the trunk walls or how resonances off the glass or headrests would effect the response at the listeners ears. Does PWK take into account all these variables in his modeling for $60, maybe, but probably not. But that would be the difference between a box/system designed by someone who was self taught and someone who has a Masters or better in acoustics.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

When people start throwing around education credentials it does matter. If he had graduate course work in acoustics or acoustical engineering, why would he not be working for some sort of company putting that knowledge to use? If I had a Master's or higher in Acoustical Engineering, I certainly would mention it somewhere on my page...but then again I doubt I would be building boxes for people via a website.

Do you guys not understand the amount of work it takes to do a graduate degree? 



trojan fan said:


> So would his designs sound better if he did
> 
> or maybe it would allow him to charge more for his service


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## fisc2307 (Oct 29, 2011)

He probably does work for another company and simply does this on his free time becuase he obviously has a passion for it amd it brings in some extra income. The manager of my office on his free time repaired motorcycles for people. This is a perosn with a masters in Mechanical Engineering and an MBA and he esenrially is a mechanic off hours. As an engineer myslef I can tell you I love what I do, but I also love hands on work, something I get none of at work. It can also get expensive to do these projects so if he found a way to work his passion and make some extra bank then power to him.

Really a bachelors in engineering means you know a lot of theory, but masters is where you really learn specialization and application.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

I would agree that credentials should not be thrown around haphazardly, or it can detract from those that have done the work to obtain those same credentials. My reply above argued that the difference between a PHD and\or doctorate is negligible (from an educational standpoint), not whether the aforementioned individual had either (multiple searches yielded nothing). 

As to whether or not it would make a difference in box design is somewhat speculative at this point (he either does or does not have the doctorate degree, yet does what he does presently).

And I do understand firsthand, the amount of work taken to obtain a graduate degree.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Would it not be a conflict of interest for him to do side work if his primary job was in speaker/enclosure design?

The only company he has had an affiliation with was primarily DD. And now it seems HAT is using him a bit.

What I am trying to get across is people who are "professionals" in their field will list a C.V. of sorts because it is very relevant to their work. 



fisc2307 said:


> He probably does work for another company and simply does this on his free time becuase he obviously has a passion for it amd it brings in some extra income. The manager of my office on his free time repaired motorcycles for people. This is a perosn with a masters in Mechanical Engineering and an MBA and he esenrially is a mechanic off hours. As an engineer myslef I can tell you I love what I do, but I also love hands on work, something I get none of at work. It can also get expensive to do these projects so if he found a way to work his passion and make some extra bank then power to him.
> 
> Really a bachelors in engineering means you know a lot of theory, but masters is where you really learn specialization and application.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> When people start throwing around education credentials it does matter. If he had graduate course work in acoustics or acoustical engineering, why would he not be working for some sort of company putting that knowledge to use? If I had a Master's or higher in Acoustical Engineering, I certainly would mention it somewhere on my page...but then again I doubt I would be building boxes for people via a website.
> 
> Do you guys not understand the amount of work it takes to do a graduate degree?


Hey hated

I think the degree thing is irrelevant within this thread

Thanks for your thoughts


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

You know, I searched by his name and saw the individual listed at DD, but had no way of verifying if it was\is the same person. I may have to go visit him one of these days, as DD is down the street from me a bit and I know of few of the people there. I would imagine that if he had the credentials mentioned above (by another poster), that they would be listed somewhere on the site.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No it is relevant because people keep saying he has this or that degree.

And the next time I want to know what you think, I will tell you.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He has a Linkedin page if any of you guys are on Linkedin.

There is nothing mentioned on his personal Facebook or Myspace page though.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> When people start throwing around education credentials it does matter. If he had graduate course work in acoustics or acoustical engineering, why would he not be working for some sort of company putting that knowledge to use? If I had a Master's or higher in Acoustical Engineering, I certainly would mention it somewhere on my page...but then again I doubt I would be building boxes for people via a website.
> 
> Do you guys not understand the amount of work it takes to do a graduate degree?





thehatedguy said:


> Would it not be a conflict of interest for him to do side work if his primary job was in speaker/enclosure design?
> 
> The only company he has had an affiliation with was primarily DD. And now it seems HAT is using him a bit.
> 
> What I am trying to get across is people who are "professionals" in their field will list a C.V. of sorts because it is very relevant to their work.



Why are you over thinking this....

What is your agenda here....:laugh:

He's only offering a service that people are looking for....could he be giving away trade secrets

I find his videos very informative and entertaining


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I am not over thinking this. I think some are underthinking it.

I have no agenda here.

He lost me when he started talking about a specific shaped sealed enclosure performing better than another shape.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

....


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> And the next time I want to know what you think, I will tell you.


Does that mean it works both ways

Because you're a Mod on this site does it allows you to talk down to me


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I am not over thinking this. I think some are underthinking it.
> 
> I have no agenda here.
> 
> He lost me when he started talking about a specific shaped sealed enclosure performing better than another shape.


So if I read between the line, you're trying to say the guy is a fraud


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> When people start throwing around education credentials it does matter. If he had graduate course work in acoustics or acoustical engineering, why would he not be working for some sort of company putting that knowledge to use? If I had a Master's or higher in Acoustical Engineering, I certainly would mention it somewhere on my page...but then again I doubt I would be building boxes for people via a website.
> 
> Do you guys not understand the amount of work it takes to do a graduate degree?


He did some (or maybe all) Digital Designs enclosures for their subwoofers. Or had something to do with the desings of the enclosures.

Oops I didnt read the last post you had.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Don't read more into it than what is there. If you want to believe that a certain shape sealed enclosure performs better than another shape WRT subwoofers you can.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> I am not over thinking this. I think some are underthinking it.
> 
> I have no agenda here.
> 
> *He lost me when he started talking about a specific shaped sealed enclosure performing better than another shape*.


Ever heard of the golden ratio?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Don't read more into it than what is there


x2....exactly......:beerchug:


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

I have purchased 5 designs and have about 6 more through trading. Maybe more.

I know he was in the military. He got hurt had either a medical discharge or Honorable discharge. Not sure on degree level in acoustical engineering.

His designs sometimes go against mainstream. What he calls a horn others disagree. He doesn't seem to care. 

Be that as it may,

As said before, if you give him exactly what you want/desire and ALL the available space that you can spare, he will design you a damn good enclosure.

Could one do better? Possibly. But it would be hard AND to do better you would have to follow the criteria you give him to follow. Has there been failings? I am sure. It would usually be attributed in either the goals were unreaistic or space given was not enough.


If you want a super easy blueprint to follow when building the enclosure, then the 50 bucks is well spent. Add the fasttrack for 10 bucks to get it rushed. It's worth it.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

I've been following PWK's YouTube channel for a while and this thread has been on my mind today. I got a chance to do some searching about his education credentials and this is the best I could find without signing up for LinkedIn.com:
View topic - Introductions All Around


> Well, I am a professional acoustic engineer; business license, taxable income, the whole nine yards.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Schriever sound said:


> The dude builds awesome boxes, who gives a **** a degree.! Bunch of dick riders on here
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA



I like your thinking.....:beerchug:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

cubdenno said:


> I have purchased 5 designs and have about 6 more through trading. Maybe more.
> 
> I know he was in the military. He got hurt had either a medical discharge or Honorable discharge. Not sure on degree level in acoustical engineering.
> 
> ...


Sounds great....what more would you ask for


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

robert_wrath said:


> PWK does have his Engineering Doctorate and utilizes that skill to achieve sonic purity. My hat's off him!


this is what started hatedguy's "degree thing"



trojan fan said:


> Hey hated
> 
> I think the degree thing is irrelevant within this thread
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts


so that does make it relevant



thehatedguy said:


> No it is relevant because people keep saying he has this or that degree.
> 
> And the next time I want to know what you think, I will tell you.


i see no talking down here trojan fan if anything you did it in the above post made by you.


trojan fan said:


> Does that mean it works both ways
> 
> Because you're a Mod on this site does it allows you to talk down to me


he didn't talk down to you if anything your trying to belittle what he has to say.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

Right, so he's an acoustical engineer.

It seems as though he DOESN'T have the degree, as there is nothing anywhere at all stating he does, other than just a post in this thread.

And yes, it matters.

Does it mean his box designs are inferior without a degree? No.

But let's not try to argue for something without anything substantial, like even the mention of a degree on his own site, at the least.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Golden ratio with a sub enclosure? A 100 hertz wave is 10 feet long...and justs gets longer the lower you go. There are no standing waves in a sub enclosure.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have a couple of bachelors degrees and was working on a masters degree before my daughter was born.



Schriever sound said:


> How many of the people who question this guys ability have degrees in anything ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


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## boogeyman (Jul 1, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Golden ratio with a sub enclosure? A 100 hertz wave is 10 feet long...and justs gets longer the lower you go. There are no standing waves in a sub enclosure.


Beat me to it ..Golden ratio does not help with sub enclosures.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

boogeyman said:


> Beat me to it ..Golden ratio does not help with sub enclosures.


I guess, I never bother messing with different enclosure sizes and box types to see/hear the differences. But when ever I have the wood available to experiment, I wont know until then.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Horsemanwill said:


> this is what started hatedguy's "degree thing"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey horseman

Can you please explain why having a degree would make a difference here

If that is your opinion then roll with it


What kind of paper does Eric hang on this wall


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

To the guys credit he made an outstanding box for me. It's the one mentioned by Jt audio on this thread with the 15s. It's really the best sub setup I've had ever

The con: he does nothing fast and my impression is he has more work than he can handle


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

BigRed said:


> To the guys credit he made an outstanding box for me. It's the one mentioned by Jt audio on this thread with the 15s. It's really the best sub setup I've had ever
> 
> The con: he does nothing fast and my impression is he has more work than he can handle


The thing that matters is the end results....which to me it seams to have brought a smile to your face....BTW all good things take time


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

tornaido_3927 said:


> Right, so he's an acoustical engineer.
> 
> It seems as though he DOESN'T have the degree, as there is nothing anywhere at all stating he does, other than just a post in this thread.
> 
> ...


Interesting......because the people that are buying his designs don't care about the "degree ". So if you're not buying one of his designs then your point is moot


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## lancewhitefield (Sep 29, 2009)

The guy has never stated he has a degree, he never misrepresented himself. You all are arguing over a rumor (sounds like a bunch of girls) bottom line he builds a very nice box. If you think it is worth $50 to $60 for a plan than buy one if you do not don't.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> Interesting......because the people that are buying his designs don't care about the "degree ". So if you're not buying one of his designs then your point is moot


That's because there isn't one.. I'm not telling people who are thinking of buying his designs to not do so because of having no degree. He himself has never said anything about.. Someone on THIS FORUM in this thread mentioned it with no evidence. You missed the point.

The guy's designs look great, I'm not discrediting him at all, he's obviously doing a good job and has customer's opinions to back him up by the boat load. Hell, I'd like to build a box as good as he can..

Just remember, *I'm not saying he's not doing a good job or needs a degree to do that job well.*


Btw, and no disrespect, I ask out of curiosity, how come you are defending him so much? I mean, because no one in here is actually defaming or bashing PWK, they're just saying that a person cannot falsely say that someone else has earned a degree if they haven't.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

The thing to note is he has said himself he is an acoustical engineer, and that's not something you say if you don't have an engineering license. So yes, it does in fact matter if he does or does not have a degree, at least if you value professional integrity.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

trumpet said:


> The thing to note is he has said himself he is an acoustical engineer, and that's not something you say if you don't have an engineering license. So yes, it does in fact matter if he does or does not have a degree, at least if you value professional integrity.


I about fell off my rocker when I read this one....... name one state that requires a acoustical engineer to be licensed ....^^^^ moot point 

and the hated guy is thanking you for something that is incorrect....tooo:laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

trumpet said:


> The thing to note is he has said himself he is an acoustical engineer, and that's not something you say if you don't have an engineering license. So yes, it does in fact matter if he does or does not have a degree, at least if you value professional integrity.


Do you know what a PE is


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## BlackFx4InTn (Apr 11, 2009)

Anyone in here that has received a tapered TLine variant design from him, I GUARANTEE you if you give me the max dimensions that you gave him, I can turn around and give you the exact design that he gave you for the build. Hell, give me a try, I know his method and will give you your specs to 1/100th of an inch. I think I'm pretty close on his rear loading horn design as well.


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

Damn....I was really hoping for some useful info in this thread. Instead, all I got was a stocking full of coal.

Can we start talking about speaker enclosures, again?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

BlackFx4InTn said:


> Anyone in here that has received a tapered TLine variant design from him, I GUARANTEE you if you give me the max dimensions that you gave him, I can turn around and give you the exact design that he gave you for the build. Hell, give me a try, I know his method and will give you your specs to 1/100th of an inch. I think I'm pretty close on his rear loading horn design as well.


:snacks:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

SHAGGS said:


> Damn....I was really hoping for some useful info in this thread. Instead, all I got was a stocking full of coal.
> 
> Can we start talking about speaker enclosures, again?


What kind of info are you looking for?

Try this link HexiBase's Channel - YouTube

Looks like we are back on track

PS... also try this one http://pwkdesigns.com/


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

A "professional engineer" is an engineer who took the PE exam. No state requires any engineer to be a PE or take the PE exam. But technically to call yourself a "professional engineer" you have to have taken the PE exam. A professional engineer is different than doing engineering as a profession. 

You can be an accountant, but you can't call yourself a CPA without taking and passing the test.



trojan fan said:


> I about fell off my rocker when I read this one....... name one state that requires a acoustical engineer to be licensed ....^^^^ moot point
> 
> and the hated guy is thanking you for something that is incorrect....tooo:laugh:


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## BlackFx4InTn (Apr 11, 2009)

SHAGGS said:


> Damn....I was really hoping for some useful info in this thread. Instead, all I got was a stocking full of coal.
> 
> Can we start talking about speaker enclosures, again?


If you are looking at getting a design from him, I certainly dont see what it would hurt. There is a VERY small percentage of people that go back to him who aren't satisfied. Everyone else swears up and down that the design he sent them is the best **** they or their buddies have ever heard. If you have the $50 + $7.50 for the rush fee, + another $7.50 for the graphs and such, then go right ahead as long as it doesnt put you in the poor house. If nothing else, it's worth it to see what you get, just out of curiosity.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Try him and the guy on CACO who is doing the same stuff and see if you get the same thing.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

tornaido_3927 said:


> they're just saying that a person cannot falsely say that someone else has earned a degree if they haven't.


Why not.....it's done on Wikipedia all the timeoke:

I don't see people boycotting that site


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> A "professional engineer" is an engineer who took the PE exam. No state requires any engineer to be a PE or take the PE exam. But technically to call yourself a "professional engineer" you have to have taken the PE exam. A professional engineer is different than doing engineering as a profession.
> 
> You can be an accountant, but you can't call yourself a CPA without taking and passing the test.


Sorry but you need to do some more homework...I deal with STRUCTURAL engineers all the time which is a PE....I know what you are trying to say but it's not coming out right

you are confusing a PE exam and a state exam


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> No state requires any engineer to be a PE or take the PE exam. .


I don't know what country you live in but they do in CA and NV.....study up some more on it

you are trying to generalize the word engineer


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

trumpet said:


> The thing to note is he has said himself he is an acoustical engineer, and that's not something you say if you don't have an engineering license. So yes, it does in fact matter if he does or does not have a degree, at least if you value professional integrity.


Hey hated
re-read the quote. you are missing my point...acoustical engineers do not need a license in any state...so why are you talking about a PE exam


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

trojan fan said:


> What kind of info are you looking for?
> 
> Try this link HexiBase's Channel - YouTube
> 
> ...


I was just hoping for a discussion about the enclosures, not the guy who made them, is all. It just seemed like the focus was drifting farther into the definition and certification of engineers, rather than focusing on the designs. I was hoping to hear from more people who have had expirence with his designs, or who have a grasp on the math and theory that go into them. I just enjoy playing around with unconventional enclosures, and would like to understand a little more about these. 
Not trying to sound like a dick, but I don't care if he's licenced in day-care, as long as his boxes sound good. Thanks for trying to steer us back in the right direction.


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

I personally had him design 2 way towers for my home theater. They sound great and I used $10 peerless buyout speakers. I would never have been able to guess how to build a set of speakers to match these without many failed attempts. i even tried to skip having him design a different center channel and I proved to myself that I dont know jack about designing speakers. I have personally demoed top model B&W, Focal, Klipsh etc. speakers, so I fully understand what home towers should sound like. My speakers cost $150x2 have the acoustic presence and sound quality that I see when i demo speakers in the 1k euro (~$1500) range. And.... I got to build them myself. Pete makes great boxes. I wish he could clone himself to handle design requests faster.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

First off, that isn't me.

Second, I never said they did.

Third I was trying to distinguish the difference between a professional engineer and engineering as a profession.



trojan fan said:


> Hey hated
> re-read the quote. you are missing my point...acoustical engineers do not need a license in any state...so why are you talking about a PE exam


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Praise Jeebus people. Why are we all arguing about a misquote from a person posting in this thread.

Let's all untwist some panties and get back to normal audio discussions. 

Shaggs,

I have a bunch of designs and recommend his work to everybody. I have gone elsewhere. Even the box "guru" X who used to post on this site doesn't come close to what Pete has provided. While many try to reverse engineer his designs(I have as well to try to understand his methodology), his results are second to none (obviously in my opinion and experience). It doesn't matter if you want an SPL design, SQ design, or one just to be heard 12 blocks away , you will be happy.

Also for the record, I don't buy into all his beliefs. But when it comes to box designs, I defer to him.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

I placed an order two months ago and haven't heard from him since. Several unanswered emails later, I have no idea if it will be another 3 days or 3 years before I get my design files. I tried to upgrade to rush status but never heard back. 

He may or may not be a god when it comes to box design. But he does not understand (or does not care) about customer service. I've ordered from dozens (maybe hundreds) of niche, sole-proprietorship type places over the years for weird esoteric stuff, and Pete is the only one that thinks it's okay to ignore his customers for months on end. (Don at SDS is probably second on that list, god bless him  )


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

The only time I have ever had issues is that since he lives near Tombstone, he has less than steller internet and emails sent out have either gotten stuck in spam filters or don't "get out". I am one who continues to follow up.

Also, if you haven't paid, he is not working on the plans.


Also, I think he takes to long as well. BUT if he is tht busy... I am glad. Means he will be around for a while.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> First off, that isn't me.
> 
> Second, I never said they did.
> 
> Third I was trying to distinguish the difference between a professional engineer and engineering as a profession.


#1 I never said that was you

#2 You thanked the guy...is it normal to thank someone that was posting wrong info

#3 Why try to educate me on something I'm well aware of:laugh:

Let me put his in a nut shell for you and all the doubters...anyone can call them self a "professional acoustical engineer" as long as they are employed in that field.....no degree, exam or license is required to give yourself that title

Why do people have a "hard time" dealing with being called out when they are wrong about something on this forum...must be a ego thing


PS why are you deleting some of my posts


wait!.... one more thing....My nephew is a professional maintenance engineer at the Wynn resort and he cleans and repairs restrooms all day


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

why doesn't a mod that is impartial to this thread, take the posts about engineering degrees and start a new thread with them and call it 

"I like to ***** about a degree some guy working out of his basement may or may not actually have and hasn't laid claim to it other than 3 people saying he has with no proof to back it up and we like to argue about the validity of engineering degrees, licensing, and exams that are irrelevant to threads and just making them cluttered and harder to read about the thing the thread was originally started about"


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

He use to post about 4-5 vids a week years ago. Now he only uploads 1 or 2 every month so I guess he is more busy than before.

The only thing I dont like is the whole "RUSH" service he offers, is like "if you want me to work on your enclosure design today or tomorrow you have to pay me 20 bucks more". Then once you get to a point where your really busy, all you have to do is stop taking work (and let everyone know why) then once finish or caught up start taking work again. That way there is no "RUSH" charges for those who want their designs quickly.

I haven't dealt with him but actually thought of paying him for a design but wont do that until I actually have the wood and the extra blade to cut 1" MDF.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Lots of places that offer services have rush charges.


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## Schizm (Jun 12, 2011)

spl152db said:


> "ILikeToBitchAboutADegreeSomeGuyWorkingOutOfHisBasementMayOrMayNotActuallyHaveAndHasn'tLaidClaimToItOtherThan3PeopleSayingHeHasWithNoProofToBackItUpAndWeLikeToArgueAboutTheValidityOfEngineeringDegreesLicensingAndExamsThatAreIrrelevantToThreadsAnd JustMakingThemClutteredAndHarderToReadAboutTheThingTheThreadWasOriginallyStartedAbout"


Fixed to upgrade from an Epic post to Legendary one!


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

Nice UG


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think we are saying the same thing, so I don't understand why you are getting all worked up.

I had long said being a "professional engineer" is different than doing engineering as a profession. And for some reason you are still arguing something in which there is no argument. 

The posts getting deleted had some less than spectacular language and comments in them.



trojan fan said:


> #1 I never said that was you
> 
> #2 You thanked the guy...is it normal to thank someone that was posting wrong info
> 
> ...


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

Seriously people. A good way to find out when he sees your email is to put a read receipt on it. I had an email disappear to Pete and he had one disappear to me. My old emails to him took less time to respond(2007-2008ish). But as of late, his notoriety has grown and his staff has shrunk (he is single now if you care to follow his video's...). Regardless Pete is a specialist in high demand and the fact that we can directly hire his services all after this time is great. DD could have easily staffed him and kept him to themselves a long time ago. As a business model, honestly he should charge double to get expedited so that non expedited service is not completely backlogged forever.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I"m a P.E. in the state of Texas. License no. 93740.

Texas requires that you earn a degree (bachelor's and up) in engineering from an ABET accredited college. You also have to take a test called the FE (fundamentals of engineering). Then you gain 4 years of professional experience under the supervision of a P.E. This is all doumented in a SER (supplemental experience record) that is signed off on by all of the P.E.'s that supervised the experience. The State must approve your SER. Once all of those requirements are met you are eligible to take the P.E. exam. In Texas, it is only offered twice a year. It is 8 hours long and has a passing rate of about 35%. If you don't pass you are eligible to take it again 3 more times before having to resubmit your SER to the State for approval.

I passed on my first attempt in 2004.

BTW - My degree is in Civil Engineering. So my boxes may suck, but I can design the heck out of a highway, bridge, water or sewer system, etc.


Looks like PWK designs a very nice box. I might ponying up $60 to improve my subs' performance.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

metanium said:


> I"m a P.E. in the state of Texas. License no. 93740.
> 
> Texas requires that you earn a degree (bachelor's and up) in engineering from an ABET accredited college. You also have to take a test called the FE (fundamentals of engineering). Then you gain 4 years of professional experience under the supervision of a P.E. This is all doumented in a SER (supplemental experience record) that is signed off on by all of the P.E.'s that supervised the experience. The State must approve your SER. Once all of those requirements are met you are eligible to take the P.E. exam. In Texas, it is only offered twice a year. It is 8 hours long and has a passing rate of about 35%. If you don't pass you are eligible to take it again 3 more times before having to resubmit your SER to the State for approval.
> 
> ...


:beerchug:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

trumpet said:


> The thing to note is he has said himself he is an acoustical engineer, and that's not something you say if you don't have an engineering license. So yes, it does in fact matter if he does or does not have a degree, at least if you value professional integrity.


Hey hated

this is the post I had an issue with, and you thanked him for it, when the info was wrong

I was just trying to clear things up and correct some bad info

Thanks for your thoughts


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If I had the space to give up wit the added weight of an enclosure, I would give him a shout just for curiosity sakes. But I am having a hard time believing I could get better performance than the 15 I have IB.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I see now. I understand where we weren't meeting in the middle.




trojan fan said:


> Hey hated
> 
> this is the post I had an issue with, and you thanked him for it, when the info was wrong
> 
> ...


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## Schriever sound (Sep 9, 2011)

I think il give him a go at my old vega 12's , ive put these things in over 20 boxes!damn things won't die,


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

I ordered an enclosure design from Ram Designs. Total price $22.50 and excellent communication before and after the design was made. I built the enclosure and it sounds fantastic.

My curiosity got the best of me and I contacted PWK Designs for a design for the same driver. Total price $57.5 and communication was good before I paid and horrible after I paid. I waited a month for the design then emailed him asking when it might be done. For two weeks I did not get a reply back.

Imo the Ram design is much better than the PWK design. The PWK design is very basic and also has no bracing. Ram put thought into the design, looks like PWK just drew something up in 10 seconds.

Based on cost, communication and design, Ram Designs is much better than PWK.

Here it's a snapshot of the two designs.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

edouble101 said:


> I ordered an enclosure design from Ram Designs. Total price $22.50 and excellent communication before and after the design was made. I built the enclosure and it sounds fantastic.
> 
> My curiosity got the best of me and I contacted PWK Designs for a design for the same driver. Total price $57.5 and communication was good before I paid and horrible after I paid. I waited a month for the design then emailed him asking when it might be done. For two weeks I did not get a reply back.
> 
> ...


So you didn't actually build and test the second enclosure? Talk about judging a book by its cover


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

87regal said:


> So you didn't actually build and test the second enclosure? Talk about judging a book by its cover


He didnt say based on performance. also why would you build the same enclosure with a worse design? He said they were the same. Or at least close enough to not make a difference. 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

spl152db said:


> He didnt say based on performance.


True he didn't specifically say based on performance, but isn't that the ultimate deciding factor? 



> also why would you build the same enclosure with a worse design? He said they were the same. Or at least close enough to not make a difference.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk


This doesn't make much sense. If someone was truly capable of accurately predicting the performance of both designs in a given environment they would probably not be paying someone for a design. Since when does the complexity of design equate to being better?



EDIT: by the way I'm talking about performance, not price, service etc.


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## Wattser93 (Mar 12, 2010)

edouble101 said:


> I ordered an enclosure design from Ram Designs. Total price $22.50 and excellent communication before and after the design was made. I built the enclosure and it sounds fantastic.
> 
> My curiosity got the best of me and I contacted PWK Designs for a design for the same driver. Total price $57.5 and communication was good before I paid and horrible after I paid. I waited a month for the design then emailed him asking when it might be done. For two weeks I did not get a reply back.
> 
> ...


I personally would be pissed if I payed $60 for a design and got one like that. Maybe I expect too much, but for $60, I'd expect more than a 3D modelled version of one of the "free box plans" from the CA forum.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

edouble101 said:


> I ordered an enclosure design from Ram Designs. Total price $22.50 and excellent communication before and after the design was made. I built the enclosure and it sounds fantastic.
> 
> My curiosity got the best of me and I contacted PWK Designs for a design for the same driver. Total price $57.5 and communication was good before I paid and horrible after I paid. I waited a month for the design then emailed him asking when it might be done. For two weeks I did not get a reply back.
> 
> ...



It'd be pretty cool if you had some testing software/hardware and the spare time and wood to give us here a good comparison between the two designs with some data and objective/subjective listening


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

Wattser93 said:


> I personally would be pissed if I payed $60 for a design and got one like that. Maybe I expect too much, but for $60, I'd expect more than a 3D modelled version of one of the "free box plans" from the CA forum.


I have never used a PWK enclosure, but I have been following his youtube channel. Here's one of his videos that might clear some of this up:


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## Wattser93 (Mar 12, 2010)

I'd like to see a competition. Let's arbitrarily pick a random $50 sub (to see who can get the most out of it). Don't provide a model number, just specifications, that way nobody can test a box design.

Have PWK, and a couple other box builder design a box for it. The benefit of it being just specifications provided, is that they will have to build based on what they think will work best, or what their equation comes up with. They wouldn't be able to buy a sub and test it to find the optimal solution.

Then do a blind listening test. Get some forum members together from a high population area so that a few forum members that are local can hear it and report back with their findings. PWK could be preferred 10:1, or it could be a crapshoot and there is no clear favorite. 

Either way, I think it would help put to rest the myths and theories about how different shaped boxes affect sound, and how some rations of L:W:H are superior, etc.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

Wattser93 said:


> I'd like to see a competition. Let's arbitrarily pick a random $50 sub (to see who can get the most out of it). Don't provide a model number, just specifications, that way nobody can test a box design.
> 
> Have PWK, and a couple other box builder design a box for it. The benefit of it being just specifications provided, is that they will have to build based on what they think will work best, or what their equation comes up with. They wouldn't be able to buy a sub and test it to find the optimal solution.
> 
> ...


All designers would have to have the exact same goals in mind.( response, spl, etc), and there should be some objective testing as well.


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

87regal said:


> So you didn't actually build and test the second enclosure? Talk about judging a book by its cover


My opinion. Looking at the design from PWK the front baffle is 32" long with no bracing. Maybe that is ok with you but it isnt with me.

Yes, I can tell alot about an enclosure by it's design, anybody can. This is a perfect example. Judging the "enclosure by it's baffle" 



tornaido_3927 said:


> It'd be pretty cool if you had some testing software/hardware and the spare time and wood to give us here a good comparison between the two designs with some data and objective/subjective listening


If the PWK design didnt look like **** I would consider building it. The only testing equipment I have are my ears. Really wouldn't do you guys any good.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

87regal said:


> I have never used a PWK enclosure, but I have been following his youtube channel. Here's one of his videos that might clear some of this up:



X2...exactly....I was about to post that same video....you beat me to it


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

edouble101 said:


> My opinion. Looking at the design from PWK the front baffle is 32" long with no bracing. Maybe that is ok with you but it isnt with me.
> 
> Yes, I can tell alot about an enclosure by it's design, anybody can. This is a perfect example. Judging the "enclosure by it's baffle"
> 
> ...


But unless I didn't read correctly, you did not build the enclosure. You just looked at the blueprint? So even your ears can not be considered as testing equipment which I would take as a better opinion than just looking at a blueprint. Lack of bracing aside.

I looked at Ram-audio and it appears he does do some nice CAD work. ut comparing what Pete does to what Ryan does is not an apples to apples comparison. You TELL Ryan what you want. Box type, tuning etc and give him the dimensions available.

With Pete, you tell him what you are wanting to achieve and max dimensions. He will determine which box type will best achieve your desires in the space you have alotted him.

Apples and oranges.

If I went to Ryan and asked for a 4th order bandpass tuned to 30 hertz I would get that. I could have him add in kerfs and 45's and what not for an extra fee. If they do not add into the performance they are just aesthetics.

And please don't think this is a nut hugging email for Pete.I just think that trying to compare them apples to apples is impossible based on what I see on the order pages.

As for bracing, If anything is ridiculously overdone, it's bracing. I built a THT for my brother. It has a 15"subwoofer and is designed to use 1/2" plywood. There are braces in it but in the largest opening and that's it. The thing on 250 watts supplies >120db 25-80 hertz in a room at listening position. I spoke several times with the designer and his feelings on material and bracing are... Well let's say he is outspoken.


I intend to find out about Ryan's services now. I will test which one does a better job. It may be after the holidays though. So go easy and be patient.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

edouble101 said:


> My opinion. Looking at the design from PWK the front baffle is 32" long with no bracing. Maybe that is ok with you but it isnt with me.
> 
> Yes, I can tell alot about an enclosure by it's design, anybody can. This is a perfect example. Judging the "enclosure by it's baffle"
> 
> ...


^^^^IMO this post is ridiculous....talk about judging a book by it's cover....I guess the eye test is all that matters.....:laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

cubdenno said:


> But unless I didn't read correctly, you did not build the enclosure. You just looked at the blueprint? So even your ears can not be considered as testing equipment which I would take as a better opinion than just looking at a blueprint. Lack of bracing aside.
> 
> I looked at Ram-audio and it appears he does do some nice CAD work. ut comparing what Pete does to what Ryan does is not an apples to apples comparison. You TELL Ryan what you want. Box type, tuning etc and give him the dimensions available.
> 
> ...


You make some very good points....


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Again, there are a lot of very good subwoofer enclosure blueprint providers. If one can use Sketch up then one can do it. 

I think his handle was Xtreme on here that did modeling for free for people. He is on the same track to doing what Pete does. From what I saw Ryan at Ram-Audio takes what you are wanting (box type, aesthetics, tuning) in the space you are alotting him and CAD's up a design. The drawings are *very nice*.

Now like him or not, Pete has a pretty big following. He seems to work within the laws of physics and his understanding of Acoustic theory and design are in my opinion very good. Don't believe in the golden ratio so much, but whatever. His designs have done everything I have asked of them. Again, with WinISD or BBP or Unibox, or Akabak or Hornresp or any of the other modeling software out there could someone do exactly as Pete does and then use Sketch up to turn out a blue print? 

Absolutely.

But I have ONLY seen Pete doing it. Oh and you want a design built into a box? He can do it.

You want to take a couple of 6 1/2's and design an enclosure to help achieve an SQ victory? He does it.


Want a design that can make a 6 1/2 sound bigger than it is in a car or better yet a 4" speaker? He can do it.

Is his business dealings bad? meh Just slow with poor communication. I am an emailer who has no patience for waiting. *I* will make a nuisance of myself till I get what I want.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> Again, there are a lot of very good subwoofer enclosure blueprint providers. If one can use Sketch up then one can do it.
> 
> I think his handle was Xtreme on here that did modeling for free for people. He is on the same track to doing what Pete does. From what I saw Ryan at Ram-Audio takes what you are wanting (box type, aesthetics, tuning) in the space you are alotting him and CAD's up a design. The drawings are *very nice*.
> 
> ...


He says the response curve is tuned for the listening position in a given environment, I have never seen a program that could do that. Certainly not winISD or BBP6.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

edouble101 said:


> My opinion. Looking at the design from PWK the front baffle is 32" long with no bracing. Maybe that is ok with you but it isnt with me.
> 
> Yes, I can tell alot about an enclosure by it's design, anybody can. This is a perfect example. Judging the "enclosure by it's baffle"
> 
> ...


I recently started using this site for the "Scientific Car Audio".....so much for that


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## Wattser93 (Mar 12, 2010)

87regal said:


> I recently started using this site for the "Scientific Car Audio".....so much for that


That's the thing. I haven't seen any scientific evidence to support his claims.

He can claim to optimize for listening position, but without RTA measurements at given locations, and various other objective elements, his claims can be considered snake oil.

He does good designs, but without science to back up his $60 fee, I'm just not seeing it.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

Wattser93 said:


> That's the thing. I haven't seen any scientific evidence to support his claims.
> 
> He can claim to optimize for listening position, *but without RTA measurements at given locations*, and various other objective elements, his claims can be considered snake oil.
> 
> He does good designs, but without science to back up his $60 fee, I'm just not seeing it.


He offers a projected response curve at the giving listening location for an additional fee, which he claims will be just about perfect. All we need is for someone to order the graph pack, and check if the real world RTA measurements correspond with it. I'm going to try his design for my next project, but it will not be for a few months.


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## underdog (Jul 5, 2011)

Wattser93 said:


> I'd like to see a competition. Let's arbitrarily pick a random $50 sub (to see who can get the most out of it). Don't provide a model number, just specifications, that way nobody can test a box design.
> 
> Have PWK, and a couple other box builder design a box for it. The benefit of it being just specifications provided, is that they will have to build based on what they think will work best, or what their equation comes up with. They wouldn't be able to buy a sub and test it to find the optimal solution.
> 
> ...


I think you would need a specific vehicle to test with also.


That comparison of the two box designs was great

PWK Designs - blue print was very poor (was there more) I could not build off that.
Interesting – 32”W x 16”D x height? Assume 14.5” also = Approx 3.33 CF

The Ram Design - Blue print was usable and very detailed
Interesting - 30"W x 13.5"D x 14.5"H = 2.57 CF

To me the Interesting add up to a big difference in the two blue prints


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

underdog said:


> I think you would need a specific vehicle to test with also.
> 
> 
> That comparison of the two box designs was great
> ...


the PWK designs I have used come with 6-7 different views and dimensions.
I'd guess the ram has more than just that one, too.


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

I'd really like to see a direct comparison as per Wattser's idea..

Regardless of how either box LOOKED it is all about how it sounds. If one is an inferior design without enough bracing, then it'll become apparent in testing.

Also; has anyone actually recognised the program he is using in this pic?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Akabak will acount for a specific listening posistion. 

Have fun learning to use it.

It is one of the most powerful bits of software I have seen and it is free.


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## Schriever sound (Sep 9, 2011)

Wow, we've made this guy famous!


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

underdog said:


> I think you would need a specific vehicle to test with also.
> 
> 
> That comparison of the two box designs was great
> ...


Also I think the key to testing is without seeing what Pete designs, design a box or boxes. Listen and measure. If the first design gives you what you think you want, including maintaining woofer "composure" (ie, hitting Xmax about same time your amp hits the clipping/max power wall) and then comparing that/those to Pete's design.

The reasons I back Pete's designs so much is again just experience with them. I asked for a specific response. His design went against everything I had been told/read in magazines and forums. Other than the size (which is what I told him to work within so that is on me) it has done EXACTLY what I wanted. 

My son started with 4 8" subs in his car. 16 years old and rap/hip hop listener. Explained power used, desired output etc. Subs never popped or got out of control. He even suggested the frequency of the SSF.

Same thing with the 4 tens we bought a design for later. Or the single 10 for my brother or the two 12's for my son... They just do what you want them to.

Other than that, the only downside is he is slowwwwwwwwww. But 1 guy doing how ever many designs a day week etc.. He once had it on his old site that he spent about an hour per design. So 8 per day/40 per week.


You don't like him/think it's a waste, that is fine. If I had found Ryan at Ram-Audio or thumper from Pound that sound first, I would prolly still be using them. All I originally wanted was a blueprint to build from. Rather than a normal cubdenno sketch on notebook paper.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

trojan fan said:


> X2...exactly....I was about to post that same video....you beat me to it


1:51... Tell us how the shape of a sealed enclosure makes a difference, other than being able to get it physically where it needs to be to properly load with the vehicle.


We have already talked about this in this very thread.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> Akabak will acount for a specific listening posistion.
> 
> Have fun learning to use it.
> 
> It is one of the most powerful bits of software I have seen and it is free.


Thanks I'll check that out.


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

Some valid points have been mentioned. I appreciate those comments.

Both designs come with multiple views. I am only posting one of each as a design comparison.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

jtaudioacc said:


> the PWK designs I have used come with 6-7 different views and dimensions.
> I'd guess the ram has more than just that one, too.


How did they perform? 


tornaido_3927 said:


> I'd really like to see a direct comparison as per Wattser's idea..
> 
> Regardless of how either box LOOKED it is all about how it sounds. If one is an inferior design without enough bracing, then it'll become apparent in testing.
> 
> Also; has anyone actually recognised the program he is using in this pic?


According to his youtube videos, he built his own software with visual basic and has a bunch of complicated spreadsheets. 



chad said:


> 1:51... Tell us how the shape of a sealed enclosure makes a difference,* other than being able to get it physically where it needs to be to properly load with the vehicle.*
> 
> 
> We have already talked about this in this very thread.


 
Maybe that's the only difference it makes. Either way it's still a difference.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

For the "horn" designs, it would be very beneficial to see an impedance plot. Seeing that would tell you exactly what is going on with the enclosure.

I mean if anyone wants some kick butt free enclosure software, I have a few links to things.

Like this site:

Enclosure Calculators | DB DYNAMIX AUDIO


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Loudspeaker enclosure calculating with Thiele Small parameter

And that guy and his little brother on that site as well.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You may recognize a few of those types of exotic enclosures...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

87regal said:


> Maybe that's the only difference it makes. Either way it's still a difference.


never said it wasn't, in fact I'm a HUGE proponent of boundary loading.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

chad said:


> 1:51... Tell us how the shape of a sealed enclosure makes a difference, other than being able to get it physically where it needs to be to properly load with the vehicle.
> 
> 
> We have already talked about this in this very thread.


I think you missed the point of the video

I can't find any of your posts about this subject within this thread



chad said:


> never said it wasn't, in fact I'm a HUGE proponent of boundary loading.


Looks like you answered your own question:laugh:


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> For the "horn" designs, it would be very beneficial to see an impedance plot. Seeing that would tell you exactly what is going on with the enclosure.
> 
> I mean if anyone wants some kick butt free enclosure software, I have a few links to things.
> 
> ...


Ah! I have been searching for these kinds of calculators! Thanks Hated!



thehatedguy said:


> You may recognize a few of those types of exotic enclosures...


Oh I see what you did there :laugh:


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

chad said:


> never said it wasn't, in fact I'm a HUGE proponent of boundary loading.


I heart Boundary Loading!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I ran across them a couple of years back right after I got the new car and wanted to do something dumb in it...but went with the old stand by of IB.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

This is one of my fav's lots of SPL with very little wattage (4ohm - 220watts to be exact).


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> I ran across them a couple of years back right after I got the new car and wanted to do something dumb in it...but went with the old stand by of IB.


I'd have a hard time fitting any of those in my car, I am more interested in them for home DIY


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

trojan fan said:


> I think you missed the point of the video
> 
> I can't find any of your posts about this subject within this thread
> 
> ...


Not understanding your point here other than that of a knee-jerk reaction of a fanboi.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I can understand placement of an enclosure, but not the physical shape of a sealed subwoofer enclosure having an effect on performance.

If that is the case, why hasn't a JAES paper been written about the subject?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> never said it wasn't, in fact I'm a HUGE proponent of boundary loading.


is there any other way?

Aiming your subwoofer box


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> is there any other way?
> 
> Aiming your subwoofer box


that takes me back to the usenet days..

that 90% of the people have never heard of... welcome to rec.audio.car.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I can understand placement of an enclosure, but not the physical shape of a sealed subwoofer enclosure having an effect on performance.
> 
> If that is the case, why hasn't a JAES paper been written about the subject?


Why write a paper about common sense? It's also a bad idea to piss on an electric fence and slam your thumb in a car door.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

chad said:


> Not understanding your point here other than that of a knee-jerk reaction of a fanboi.


Which part.......:snacks:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

trojan fan said:


> Which part.......:snacks:


Me missing the point of the video, I actually listened to it. Not really much to see. The melon thing was funny though.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

chad said:


> that takes me back to the usenet days..
> 
> that 90% of the people have never heard of... welcome to rec.audio.car.


Just how old are you:santa2:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Cause apparently he has some insight that no one else has...you know small names like Beranek, Linkwitz, Toole, Geddes, Small, Thiele, the "other" PWK, Harman International, etc never had.

You know...people with Ph.Ds in the subject matter.



chad said:


> Why write a paper about common sense? It's also a bad idea to piss on an electric fence and slam your thumb in a car door.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

60ndown said:


> is there any other way?
> 
> Aiming your subwoofer box


I wish I had seen this many years ago. I had been running my sub at the back of the trunk facing forward, and after reading that page I went out for a drive with the sub facing the back of the car. This sums up my reaction:   I feel like an idiot for not trying the box that way.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Cause apparently he has some insight that no one else has...you know small names like Beranek, Linkwitz, Toole, Geddes, Small, Thiele, the "other" PWK, Harman International, etc never had.
> 
> You know...people with Ph.Ds in the subject matter.


I doubt PWK has ever made any claims like that. What he does claim is that he is able to model a driver in many different enclosure configurations (in a particular environment) and deduce which is most suited for the customers listening preferences. I'm sure many other people can do it, but AFAIK he is the only one readily available for a vehicle design.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

I missed the drama 

<-- old rec.audio.car guy with one of those PE thingies who uses IB.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

trojan fan said:


> Just how old are you:santa2:


LOL 39.... I used usenet up until probably 2006? I think they pulled the server here around 2007/8.

Always enjoyed it.. the badassedness of complete anti-moderation 

Cool thing was, in the more professional groups, you always got a straight answer.

Porn was pictures, in binary, so much in that way back in the day you actually had to convert, and if it was one character off....

I FINALLY just caught up with the old crew from Rec.Audio.Pro.live-sound on facebook within the last month. Still as close as ever, that's internet friendship for you.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> I missed the drama
> 
> <-- old rec.audio.car guy with one of those PE thingies who uses IB.


you can look at the join dates here and almost guess who was on rec.audio.car



Or Mention Bob Wald


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

trumpet said:


> I wish I had seen this many years ago. I had been running my sub at the back of the trunk facing forward, and after reading that page I went out for a drive with the sub facing the back of the car. This sums up my reaction:   I feel like an idiot for not trying the box that way.


I have my enclosure towards the front of the trunk facing backwards (rear). Reading that article am going to have to go to my trunk and move the enclosure to the rear and keep it facing to the rear to see if there is any difference. According to the article this would be the best place/displacement for enclosure to produce loudest bass.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

chad said:


> that takes me back to the usenet days..
> 
> that 90% of the people have never heard of... welcome to rec.audio.car.


I used to read a few newsgroups back then. Still use them, but just not for reading. I guess I do "read" gigabytes at a time now.


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

TrickyRicky said:


> I have my enclosure towards the front of the trunk facing backwards (rear). Reading that article am going to have to go to my trunk and move the enclosure to the rear and keep it facing to the rear to see if there is any difference. According to the article this would be the best place/displacement for enclosure to produce loudest bass.


I can notice the difference when I move my single 12 from near the seat back, to near the rear wall, always facing the rear.
It sounds even better when it's in the corner, but trunk useability suffers in these positions, so I keep it forward and out of the way. 
That's the main principal behind boundry loading. 
"The use of perimeter walls, in a listening environment, to reinforce and direct the low frequency waves twords the listener."
You trunk might rattle a little more than normal, thou.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

chad said:


> Always enjoyed it.. the badassedness of complete anti-moderation .



That must of been the best part of the site....:beerchug::thumbsup:

Sounded like a place were you could go and let your hair down and have some fun....:laugh:


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## tornaido_3927 (Nov 23, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> That must of been the best part of the site....:beerchug::thumbsup:
> 
> Sounded like a place were go could go and let your hair down and have some fun....:laugh:


Sooooooo.... Why are we here? :laugh:


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

*Quote from Pete
*


> Depending on what your audience is used to hearing, you could shock them with just about anything. I always make the most of the space and the equipment that I am given to work with. If the resulting design yields shocking performance, it's all the better, but there is no threshold that can be defined by some empirical value beyond which a speaker sounds impressive, and below which it does not.
> 
> Case in point: There are new YouTube videos uploaded each day where someone is impressed with the output of some flea market sub in a prefab enclosure, complete with commentary on how they never expected that much output based on their prior experience with similar subs in similar boxes. Are we making that the reference?


I've been trying to get my head around Pete, as to me as a newbie and someone who wants to get into box building, everyone seems to be some form of Deity. Davethewooferguy, Steve Meade, Mega Bass Heavy (UK), Ram Designs, Toxic Bass, nightmareaudio, basszone ex31:3 .. i could go on. 

If I have an old Vibe subwoofer £100 and I bought a DD sub or JL sub and asked Pete or someone else to design an enclosure, doesn't the fact that I'm searching for what in my mind is a 'Professional' already prejudice my perceived outcome? Whether the design is a 'Sealed' enclosure or a bandpass, what do you think i'm going to say about it? After I've bought the subwoofer, paid $60 for the design, built the box, surely i'm gonna say "that's amazing!" regardless. If you're going to replace a £100 subwoofer with a £200 subwoofer what d'you think i'm going to say.... "The £200 sub is going in the bin."

I think Pete is one, amongst many talented box builders, car audio, home audio whatever your thing is. *Is he 'The Only One!'???* By the talk from some people it seems the answer is yes. However like I said I believe there are many skilled and talented people. 

I've had a lot of good advice from obviously very knowledgeable people on this forum, and unlike other forums, I've not been treated with hostility or as someone who is incapable of absorbing information. Some of it I have to read a few times to get it to sink in, however here on diymobileaudio I've been grateful for those who take time and effort to answer my questions, *in a way i can understand* ... which is important. 

It's great being knowledgeable, however it takes a certain type of skill to convey that knowledge ... not in the way you understand or would hope others would understand, but in a way an 'individual' would understand. A simple question can often be dealt with by a simple answer. Trying to educate someone on their level is not the same as trying to show your intellectual prowess. I can go on to my Vibe owning friends about phase, QTS, wave guides or i can say, "buy this sub, stick it there and reverse the polarity by switching the + and - over" .. which is basically what I was told to do recently. Then when I pressed for the _'Why'_ *Fast Hot Rod* then started to educate me .. slowly about phase, again in a way that i could understand. Blasting me with an answer using phrases and words I've not come across before, then alluding that for some reason I'm ignorant just because I've asked for a more 'layman's terms' answer, I think is a true sign of ignorance .. which I've had on another forum (not PWK). 

I know I've asked some really strange questions on this forum, but for the most part I've asked them for a few reasons

1) I don't know
2) I don't understand 
3) I want some kind of reassurance from someone who i feel is better qualified.

I asked a few questions on Pete's forum, but I jumped off it fairly quickly. I'm not disputing he's a talented guy. What I'm suggesting is that if I did a bit of reading myself, posted a few questions for guidance, I don't think that I would come up with a substandard result. Sure there's always a bit of trial and error, however in this instance, *i think there's enough talent on this forum! *


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

trojan fan said:


> That must of been the best part of the site....:beerchug::thumbsup:
> 
> Sounded like a place were go could go and let your hair down and have some fun....:laugh:


Back in the day, this place was unmoderated... but we pretty much all knew each other, it was a pretty small group.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

chad said:


> Back in the day, this place was unmoderated... but we pretty much all knew each other, it was a pretty small group.


This place would become unruly if we didn't have the mods looking over our shoulders


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

not really, when moderation started it was because of ONE troll, and a good troll at that, I was one of them, most of the time we just let it roll, it will straighten itself out.


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## Schriever sound (Sep 9, 2011)

This thread really grew!,I was heavily modded,


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

i like pwk, for $50 i might give one of his designs a try in my vehicle, with my amp and my driver.


At a Glance - YouTube


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

This just keeps getting more intresting. 
I've seen it asked several times about port direction, in relation to woofer location, in a givin enclosure. Answers always seemed to be expience based, more than anything. Now it looks like there's a little more math behind it. The comparitive models were pretty cool.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Well, I purchased a set of plans fr my TC sounds TC3000 15 from RAM designs right before Christmas. Figured it would be a hectic time and that would gauge the turn around time even better.

From placing order to receiving order took about a week.
Web based order form was easy but you determine the basic parameters of what you want. Tuning frequency, bandpass, 45's, kerfing. In some parameters of the design, it costs extra.


I placed an order and left all the parameters blank. Specified what I wanted. Just gave the T/S specs with no brand of the sub.

I specified for my car the same volume I gave Pete as well as the same criteria

Mainly rock music with the occasional hip hop/rap thrown in
1500 watts of power
in car flat response 30-80 hertz
maximum efficiency at the headrest not the windshield (not competing).

What I got back was a bass reflex design tuned to 32 hertz.

The prints were very professional on par to I would say slightly better than what Pete provides. I had a draftsman here at work compare the two designs from a professional standpoint. He usues Pro-E and Solidworks.


That all being said, the performance of the two designs are no where near close to the same. The RAM design is incredibly overwhelming in the lower end bass frequencies. The amount of midbass to compensate is way beyond the room I have available to provide. The design provided was great if that is what I was wanting. My son definitely liked it more than the bandpass that Pete provided. Am sure had I asked, Pete would have provided me with the same end results if I had asked for a audible output based enclosure. The design I got from Ryan is very similar to the ones I have modeled in WinISD for my sub and then built.

So if you all have followed what I am saying, there was absolutely no knocking Pete in any of this and really no knocking Ryan at Ram. They are just apples to oranges when comparing the two services.

Ryan provides a nice set of blueprints. Works within the volume parameters you provide and gives you specifically what you ask for. A set of blueprints. Very little engineering if any is done. So if you just need a set of blueprints to build from he does a great job. Great turn around time, great communication. Cost was 22.00

Pete on the otherhand, engineers a design to BEST match the parameters and performance aspects you are trying to achieve. You are paying him for computer simulating, modeling and design AND you get a set of blueprints. He gives you a product that in the space you have given him performs the best that can be had based on the criteria you give him and the performance you are trying to achieve.

If you get the data wrong or are trying to get a miracle out of poop obviously that throws everything off and will not happen. 


If you need a blueprint ASAP for a tried and true design, I have no problem recommending Ram. Great job audible loudness design was very impressive. Seems like a great guy and in this day and age, a joy to deal with. Truly problem free.

If you want a engineered blueprint that takes into account your vehicle, then go to PWK. It will cost a bit more. Take a bit more time and his customer service is lacking if you expect him to kiss ass. But the end result in my opinion, is worth it.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I would have to agree with this last statement as far as Pete is concerned. I have never worked with either Pete or Ryan for that matter, but from all the research I've done on Pete, he seems to take your woofer's T/S, the constraints you have for your particular vehicle, what you want out of it and models a design for you. 

Note that your particular vehicle plays a big part of it. A suburban is going to have different requirements than a S10.

Several people mentioned all his transmission lines, and yes he does have a lot of them, but those just happened to provide the response for the parameters given. He even has a video where he remarks about a customer who asked for a design and the best model was sealed enclosure and the customer wasn't happy with just a sealed box. Oh well..

You should see his video that he did with the Hybrid Audio I6SW in a TL box. It fooled a lot of people into thinking it was 10's or a 12.

For $50, it seems like a drop in the hat compared to the cost of speakers, amps, wiring, materials, etc. But to each their own.


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## 87regal (Apr 15, 2009)

pocket5s said:


> I would have to agree with this last statement as far as Pete is concerned. I have never worked with either Pete or Ryan for that matter, but from all the research I've done on Pete, he seems to take your woofer's T/S, the constraints you have for your particular vehicle, what you want out of it and models a design for you.
> 
> Note that your particular vehicle plays a big part of it. A suburban is going to have different requirements than a S10.
> 
> ...




Finally someone gets it! 



The way I see it, if a particular designer guarantees(within reason) a specific in car response, impedance profile , mechanical handling , etc. it would be pretty easy to verify. Saying a box sounds good/bad/loud is a totally subjective statement, as long as the real world objective measurements match the projected , then you got what you paid for bottom line. 


I think most of the bad feedback can be attributed to using a design with the driver/wrong environment/poor construction/unrealistic goals. I have never used any designer before, but for my next project I will be going with PWK. I was blown away by his youtube channel.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I agree with the $50 thing. I've spent well over £1,000 on my system (which isn't a huge amount of money I know) and to spend another £32.28 on design plans isn't a bad investment. 

For me, it's still the satisfaction of doing it myself. I understand that Pete has developed his own software, however there is similar software available out ther to map different responses. 











As to negative feedback of Pete's gear, one forum member on Pete's forum illuded to the issue of poor construction from the blueprints. 

No doubt i will buy a set of blueprints from both Pete and RD, however i'm still a total newbie, but i'm learning, but the fun factor for me is still design and building the enclosure myself. I haven't heard a t-line designe speaker for a long, long time, it'll be good to hear one in a car. I also look forward to testing a horn design, or as the horn faithful feel that a true horn doesn't/can't work in a car, i like to call it a horn hybrid, for want of a better phrase. 

For me, Pete has just brought a bit more awareness of things to take into consideration. It would seem that t-lines are slightly frowned upon because of space issues, and horns ... well that seems to be a big no, no! Bandpass also for ... domestic/everyday car audio seems to be a no, no as well, and so for the most part it's ported because they create the most bang for your buck, and sealed enclosures in the market. 

A visit to my local Halfords and you'll find the store bereft of any t-line, horns, or bandpass boxes. It's all Edge subs, Vibe subs and the like. Not a huge range to choose from when your new to the whoe car audio thing and you don't have enough knowledge and experience to question if there's a better option. I've done it before when i was a newbie "Oh, there's a 500 watt sub, that'll be ok for my 250 watt amp."


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> For me, Pete has just brought a bit more awareness of things to take into consideration. It would seem that t-lines are slightly frowned upon because of space issues, and horns ... well that seems to be a big no, no! Bandpass also for ... domestic/everyday car audio seems to be a no, no as well, and so for the most part it's ported because they create the most bang for your buck, and sealed enclosures in the market.
> 
> A visit to my local Halfords and you'll find the store bereft of any t-line, horns, or bandpass boxes. It's all Edge subs, Vibe subs and the like. Not a huge range to choose from when your new to the whoe car audio thing and you don't have enough knowledge and experience to question if there's a better option. I've done it before when i was a newbie "Oh, there's a 500 watt sub, that'll be ok for my 250 watt amp."


All the information Pete is using is available here and elsewhere, his understaning of this is what you are paying for. You, I or anyone on this site can design enclosures just like his with software available free on the net-it just takes time and effort, which is sometimes best spent doing your day job to pay for someone else to design. His site/product has sparked discussion on here, always a good thing, but for the most part his designs will not appeal to the average car audio user-too large, costly and too much effort.

You cite Halfords (for non UK users a similar store to best buy, but focused on cars and push bikes) as not having any horns, t-lines or BP enclosures (It's been a long time since I bothered visting one-but they used to have BP and could get you a horn if you asked: TS-WX77A Space-Saving Amplified Subwoofer (200W) - Pioneer Speakers & Subwoofers) but you'd be unlikely to find these in any "proper" car audio shops; the box needs to be designed for the car, the cost of building puts people off, the space is an issue, there's little experience with these designs and you're forgetting that 90% of the ICE buying public do not share the interest to the same degree as this forum's users. 

I sell car audio, 6 days a week, if I talked to the majority of my customers about the enclosures on this thread I would:

Confuse them
Alienate them
Lose the sale

I'd love to sell nothing but top of the range, custom designed installs-however I have to be realistic and the average user has no need/want for this degree of skill (therefore cost) and I cannot make a living trying to sell "Rolls Royce" systems to "Fiesta" pockets. I'd love to educate everyone who comes into the store in everything I have learnt over the years-however for most of them the education system didn't manage anything in the 12years they were there and I don't have time to explain complex theories/designs to someone who doesn't understand the absolute basics. I pick and choose who I'll discuss things in depth with-even A-Level (Hi school) students doing physics get lost on simple things like ohms law and phase cancelation!

Unfortunately skilled installers and knowledgeable staff don't guarantee your income-Cheltenham Car Audio have just closed their doors and having spoken to one of the reps that dealt with them he was very surprised, they always had hi-end installs and took a lot of top spec Nav products from him-but the margins they had to work on got smaller as competition is high and they didn't really cater for the lower end of the market meaning they were losing bread and butter sales to the likes of Halfords. On the other hand I've grown my store's turnover and profit year on year for the time I've been here-by focusing on the bread and butter end and not wasting my time trying to educate those who aren't interested; the quicker I can serve one customer the quicker I can get on to the next!

Download hornresp and start playing with it, absolute PITA to get to grips with-I'm still in nappies with regard to it, but I think I'll be potty training soon!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Not to crap on PWK, even though he seems to use some complex software, I think the main thing is he is using creativity mixed with common sense. Something that has long disappeared from this hobby. Everyone nowadays seems to get so stuck on "X" brand and megawatts to the point that if you don't think like that you are frowned upon.

Browsing his site you see some ideals (bandpass) that were abandoned long ago as well as other aspects to enclosures that most overlook. What he seems to do is what we tend to not do... research & think outside the box (no pun intended). I remember years ago a local brick & mortar shop owner had that same desire. Starting his business off in the flea market selling Pyramid & Legacy with a few other lower tier brands he still gained much respect because he actually tested his products and build respectable systems. Go ahead and laugh! But I tell you what, what he did with some Pyramid Super Blue subs was pretty damn impressive! He was going through school as well, though I can't remember exactly for what.

Anywho..... the things dude taught me throughout the years was priceless common sense mixed with creativity. Building transmission lines & such, achieving performance out of equipment most would think was a lot more than what it actually was. Later his business grew and started taking on upper tier brands during that time (Cadence, Kicker, etc...), but somehow the industry started taking a turn for the worse as we are all aware. I do know some of the brands he carried started putting heavy rules on him to the point it kind of soured things. He got out of the business and became a mechanic for a major dealer. Ever since then the likes of his expertise and creativity has been quite rare in this town. Instead you have shops filled with ignorant minded salesmen and wannabes pushing extravagant prices for fairly simple installs. I haven't bought any gear locally in decades!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Bayboy said:


> I think the main thing is he is using creativity mixed with common sense. Something that has long disappeared from this hobby.


That's totally sig-worthy.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

I have to admit, what I kind of like about him is he is a little snobbish about enclosure design, to the point that he wants to take a set of criteria, i.e. the driver, space constraints and listening habits of the customer and make the best possible box. But not so snobbish that he designs ever box to be the perfect SQ box or all sound a particular way. He also gets a bit bent out of shape about manufacturer recommended enclosures. I can see his point. How can you say a given enclosure is right for a sedan, hatchback, pickup and suv?

I saw one video where he took a couple 10's (I think) for a local kid that was probably 18-19 or so and built a box that just hammered. He would probably never have that in his car, but the kid loved it. That kid probably doesn't have a clue what went into that design and doesn't care, but Pete did and I'm guessing prides himself on it. 

I do the same thing writing software. The end user only sees the interface and has no idea what happens behind the scenes. Vast majority of developers write crappy code, but I won't do that. I want it to look and act a certain way even if the customer never sees it. I have no doubt a lot of good installers are the same way. Using quality product and techniques that the customer will never know a thing about. But... it is *right*.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Bayboy said:


> Not to crap on PWK, even though he seems to use some complex software, I think the main thing is he is using creativity mixed with common sense. Something that has long disappeared from this hobby. Everyone nowadays seems to get so stuck on "X" brand and megawatts to the point that if you don't think like that you are frowned upon.
> 
> Browsing his site you see some ideals (bandpass) that were abandoned long ago as well as other aspects to enclosures that most overlook. What he seems to do is what we tend to not do... research & think outside the box (no pun intended).


*Very true, though you can easily see where this has stemmed from-modern subs are designed to work in small sealed enclosures as "customers" want big bass and a small space, amp power is cheap so this is the simple solution. Take these same subs and then try and model them in low-tuned ported or BP enclosures and you'll find you end up with huge impracticle ports or un-workable BP designs-you then think why not just add another sub or a bigger sub to get the same output from a smaller and simpler build.*



Bayboy said:


> I remember years ago a local brick & mortar shop owner had that same desire. Starting his business off in the flea market selling Pyramid & Legacy with a few other lower tier brands he still gained much respect because he actually tested his products and build respectable systems. Go ahead and laugh! But I tell you what, what he did with some Pyramid Super Blue subs was pretty damn impressive! He was going through school as well, though I can't remember exactly for what.


*Vibe started in this way, the owner started building little bandpass enclosures with Pioneer or Kenwood drivers and soon got a good little following, stepped up to making their own bass drivers, then full range and amps and so on. Now one of the biggest (if not biggest) UK car audio "manufacturers" and are very successful at selling into the larger, less educated section of the market. Not my bag, but plenty of fanboys out there. 

This site and others provide us all with the opportunity to learn how to do this all ourselves-but taking our hobby to these extremes is not for the average user and if I stepped up my game and got up to PWKs design skills I couldn't expect to make enough to survive on in the UK market-which makes me thankful for sites like this that allow me and others to share a common interest, discuss, learn and develop.*


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I understand his frustration as well. I don't own a shop or run any sort of business, but I can't count how many times I've had friends complain about their install yet ignore my suggestions. 

Example: two different dudes with similar problems. Both had 4 door sedans with a solid back seat that hampered the sub's output from entering the cabin efficiently. Their solution was to cram more subs & power into the trunk and try to muscle the bass into the cab. Of course rattling became a serious problem. One rear deck had a hole where a factory sub could go, but was blocked by sound proof material. The other had solid metal across both back seat and deck except for where the rear speakers went. He later had a round hole cut through the deck to allow bass to come through. Still sounded like crap and I explained why in depth.

Both was suggested to abandon hope of using a conventional box and possibly the current subs. I explained that a simple 4th order bandpass even with a small sub that would vent through the rear deck would not only totally improve the in-cab performance, but would solve the rattling issues as well. Of course they nodded in agreement, but never tried that option. Just eventually gave up period or kept buying different subs. I too gave up and said whatever... closed minded people like that are not worth my time trying to help.

Can I blame this on the the bad rep bandpass had gained throughout the years, their lack of truly understanding what could be achieved, or the idea of something so simple & inexpensive could outdo their big rigs? Still to this day haven't figured it out. I will say this though, if I ever come across that same situation for myself I will not hesitate to think out of normal constraints!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

chad said:


> That's totally sig-worthy.



Hmmmm..... that wouldn't be riding my own jock if I used it would it? Been wondering what to put on my sig for a while. :idea:


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Bayboy said:


> I understand his frustration as well. I don't own a shop or run any sort of business, but I can't count how many times I've had friends complain about their install yet ignore my suggestions.
> 
> Example: two different dudes with similar problems. Both had 4 door sedans with a solid back seat that hampered the sub's output from entering the cabin efficiently. Their solution was to cram more subs & power into the trunk and try to muscle the bass into the cab. Of course rattling became a serious problem. One rear deck had a hole where a factory sub could go, but was blocked by sound proof material. The other had solid metal across both back seat and deck except for where the rear speakers went. He later had a round hole cut through the deck to allow bass to come through. Still sounded like crap and I explained why in depth.
> 
> ...


Like sound deadening and decent interconnects most users don't see an enclosures value or get excited about them-new subs and amps that have had the sh!t marketed out of them are exciting as the marketeers tell you they do XYZ and are a must have. I have customers who can't understand why their box doesn't sound as good when moved from a compact hatch to a saloon-even with detailed explanation!

BP boxes that I have experienced have largely been cheap sh!t made out of chipboard and housing $1 woofers and some tacky neons, they've largely fallen out of favour in the UK, Vibe still do a couple and there's the JBL/Alpine options-though I never get asked for them so have never bothered stocking any. The shop I used to work at (1st car audio job) had an isobaric parallel tuned BP with two of the original Pioneer IMP (301 IIRC) subs in it-we'd have people come from 50miles away for a demo, was damn loud but still pretty musical, but my boss wanted silly money for it so we never sold many!


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

I believe that me and thehated are on the same wavelength. I dont mean to revive the credentials debate, but having a degree, license, etc does backup some credibility to his work. Aside from that, it would be very difficult to design an enclosure that would rival IB. I am not a fan of ported enclosures strictly for the fact that the port is 180 degrees out of phase with the driver. The only upside I see to an enclosure compared to IB would be location. You can put an enclosure just about anywhere. Thats not so easy for IB.

I dont mean to down play any of his designs, he obviously has dedicated a lot of time and effort into his work. I believe that with his knowledge, he should cater to a slightly different audience. Yes, I know that tapped horns are more effiecient, everyone does. But to post a video of some immature white boy highschoolers saying "Yo dude, that sounds like two twelves man!" seems to not shed the best light on his work. Generally these are the types of people who won't spend $60 on just a design that they have to build, but will spend $60 on a sub and an amp.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

ameuba10 said:


> I believe that me and thehated are on the same wavelength. I dont mean to revive the credentials debate, but having a degree, license, etc does backup some credibility to his work. Aside from that, it would be very difficult to design an enclosure that would rival IB. I am not a fan of ported enclosures strictly for the fact that the port is 180 degrees out of phase with the driver. The only upside I see to an enclosure compared to IB would be location. You can put an enclosure just about anywhere. Thats not so easy for IB.
> 
> I dont mean to down play any of his designs, he obviously has dedicated a lot of time and effort into his work. I believe that with his knowledge, he should cater to a slightly different audience. Yes, I know that tapped horns are more effiecient, everyone does. But to post a video of some immature white boy highschoolers saying "Yo dude, that sounds like two twelves man!" seems to not shed the best light on his work. Generally these are the types of people who won't spend $60 on just a design that they have to build, but will spend $60 on a sub and an amp.


I believe the port is 90 degrees out of phase.

I only ask in what way is IB superior to any other design?

Big sealed or IB. It takes less power and thanks to cabin gain you get some low end extension. There is tiny group delay but what if you simply want more output and the extension? See this is me arguing on a subjective subject with you.:laugh:

I think it truly comes down to listening preferences, install options and goals. We can all get into the which is a better enclosure design argument but it's like judging ice skating. It's all subjective. AND it's like the which is better arguments in half the threads on this forum anymore. I may not know what is the best but I know what I like and I know the same goes for everyone else. 

We all should be able to agree to disagree and move on if that has to be the end result.

As for Pete, He is just another designer out there. This thread has probably garnered him some new business oppurtunities. Maybe not as much as the press on his design for S. Buwalda but some I am sure. Is there better enclosure designers out there? Probably. But like anybody performing a service or providing a product, there is always going to be someone who is unhappy with it. Even Danley has haters. Some people dislike Zed. JL makes a crappy sub, ID sucks, ported is boomy, IB can't get loud enough, Piezo provides a superior high end response. 
Can't make everybody happy and not everybodies idea of good jibes with others.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

But isn't that sort of an moot point to say nothing will rival IB when not all vehicles can implement one?! I have built several styles within my own vehicles and other's as well. I've only had a few vehicles where IB was possible. The rest were suvs, trucks and hatchbacks. The cars where IB was done sounded very good, but to say that I couldn't do a hatch or anything else just as good or better is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. 

One of the best sounding systems I ever had was an old 81 Buick Park Ave with two sealed 10" subs flanked by ported 8" midbass sitting on the parcel shelf and firing directly into the back seat. Very smooth & deep response. The only EQ I had was bass & treble on an old Pioneer headunit. I envy that setup as it was simple, efficient (small amps to boot), and slightly compact. Much was accredited to the vehicle no doubt. Keep in mind though that all depends on what you are playing and the music I listened to back then played excellent (hip hop, electronic, r&b, pop) on that system. I do believe that is all that matters to most.

Now I am not against or for what ever dude's name is, but I do understand where he is coming from on the enclosure aspect. That is something that has been abandoned for a long time up to the point of ignorance of the basics. Heck, isn't someone here running some cheap Pyle 15" IB and loving it?! I applaud that truly because that pretty much coincides with the gist of what is being overlooked. It's not always about a brand, watts, or whatever... it's about proper implementation for a given situation is it not?


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

Bayboy said:


> But isn't that sort of an moot point to say nothing will rival IB when not all vehicles can implement one?! I have built several styles within my own vehicles and other's as well. I've only had a few vehicles where IB was possible. The rest were suvs, trucks and hatchbacks. The cars where IB was done sounded very good, but to say that I couldn't do a hatch or anything else just as good or better is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot.
> 
> One of the best sounding systems I ever had was an old 81 Buick Park Ave with two sealed 10" subs flanked by ported 8" midbass sitting on the parcel shelf and firing directly into the back seat. Very smooth & deep response. The only EQ I had was bass & treble on an old Pioneer headunit. I envy that setup as it was simple, efficient (small amps to boot), and slightly compact. Much was accredited to the vehicle no doubt. Keep in mind though that all depends on what you are playing and the music I listened to back then played excellent (hip hop, electronic, r&b, pop) on that system. I do believe that is all that matters to most.
> 
> Now I am not against or for what ever dude's name is, but I do understand where he is coming from on the enclosure aspect. That is something that has been abandoned for a long time up to the point of ignorance of the basics. Heck, isn't someone here running some cheap Pyle 15" IB and loving it?! I applaud that truly because that pretty much coincides with the gist of what is being overlooked. It's not always about a brand, watts, or whatever... it's about proper implementation for a given situation is it not?




Precisely. I probly should have elaborated more on the IB comment. Obviously it cannot work in every situation. Unless you are competing, do what you can with what you have to suit your tastes. Its your car, whos to tell you what you hear and what sounds good to you? I know several people who I can hear coming a mile away, and cannot be happier.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I will say this though... I find watching his videos rather amusing. Informative somewhat, but still amusing. From his date rant video I gather he has serious problems trying to find a woman. Well that I can understand if every conversation winds up like his blogs. Coupled with the accent, his choice of words is rather dizzying at times. It's like watching a common talk show hosted by Sigmund Freud!


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> I will say this though... I find watching his videos rather amusing. Informative somewhat, but still amusing. From his date rant video I gather he has serious problems trying to find a woman. Well that I can understand if every conversation winds up like his blogs. Coupled with the accent, his choice of words is rather dizzying at times. It's like watching a common talk show hosted by Sigmund Freud!


LMAO, I know what you mean. That rant video was pretty funny. 

If I understand correctly, he does the enclosure designs for a living. Which means he works from home. Which means he doesn't get out much I think...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Well there's nothing wrong at all with enjoying your work, but there is such a thing as enclosing yourself within it (pun intended).  

Seriously though, when you have such strong convictions you can easily intimidate people. I'm not sure if he comes across like that to women, but some women find that a turn off just as much as a dude being a wimp. It takes a natural balancing act to attract people towards you. That is shown within this thread obviously with how he is viewed by others. It's not that he is doing something that has never been done before, but it is the snobbish way he comes across at times that drives people away. Not a good thing! Apparently it hasn't stopped his business so of course he may not ever learn, though it may very well be the cause of suffering in the dating arena. Trust me, I had to learn that one myself.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

cubdenno said:


> Big sealed or IB. It takes less power and thanks to cabin gain you get some low end extension. There is tiny group delay but what if you simply want more output and the extension?


It's entirely possible to have more group delay from a large sealed enclosure than even a bandpass.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

chad said:


> It's entirely possible to have more group delay from a large sealed enclosure than even a bandpass.


Yep... Got that from *PB* and tried to model my subs in *BP*. I can get FLAT group delay (+-1ms) from 10Hz to about 60Hz with a few subs (not all though). 

Kelvin


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I haven't been on here since the turn of the new year, So Happy New Year to everyone. 



The Baron Groog said:


> You cite Halfords (for non UK users a similar store to best buy, but focused on cars and push bikes) as not having any horns, t-lines or BP enclosures (It's been a long time since I bothered visting one-but they used to have BP and could get you a horn if you asked: TS-WX77A Space-Saving Amplified Subwoofer (200W) - Pioneer Speakers & Subwoofers) but you'd be unlikely to find these in any "proper" car audio shops; the box needs to be designed for the car, the cost of building puts people off, the space is an issue, there's little experience with these designs and you're forgetting that 90% of the ICE buying public do not share the interest to the same degree as this forum's users.


I'm in contact with a car audio distributor that says much the same thing. At the moment what with DLS, CDT, Diamond and Genesis going "Pop!" (A term used by a kind sales agent from one of the better known UK car audio shops) everyone is throwing their hands in the air and saying that no one is interested in high-end car audio at the moment. 

Having gone for an job interview at Halfords (i needed the money!) it's obvious the car audio industry in the UK and Europe, is in decline. It seems the only companies that will survive will be companies who are very well established, JL, Morel (possibly), Vibe (sadly), or companies that have an income stream elsewhere I’m thinking about the likes of Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony (the lower end players) and the likes of Dynaudio who haven't invested heavily in the car audio scene. 



The Baron Groog said:


> I'd love to sell nothing but top of the range, custom designed installs-however I have to be realistic and the average user has no need/want for this degree of skill (therefore cost) and I cannot make a living trying to sell "Rolls Royce" systems to "Fiesta" pockets


Maybe because i'm still a bit starry eyed about the whole thing, but if someone can spend £600 on a vibe system (my friend) or £200-300 on a vibe sub, or spend £130 on a pair of black death speakers, then they're perfectly capable of spending £130 on a pair of ... Morel or JL! 



The Baron Groog said:


> Unfortunately skilled installers and knowledgeable staff don't guarantee your income-Cheltenham Car Audio have just closed their doors and having spoken to one of the reps that dealt with them he was very surprised, they always had hi-end installs and took a lot of top spec Nav products from him-but the margins they had to work on got smaller as competition is high and they didn't really cater for the lower end of the market meaning they were losing bread and butter sales to the likes of Halfords


My man says much the same thing. I've heard many UK car audio shops say that companies just push, push push. One online store told me that 'a' particular brand wanted the online store in question to stock/sell £10k worth of gear per month ... which the online store said, was plain stupid. And so the online store now goes outside the official UK Distribution in favour of a Euro Dist. who puts no pressure on them at all. 

Ground Zero are another one, who started well, however my contact said the margins for GZ have been getting smaller and smaller until it's not worth it. And so he concentrated on InPhase as the margins are big. there are a few other Manu. that offer good margins, but not many. But I just think there's more to the UK Car Audio scene than InPhase or Vibe. It's just a matter of, how do you tell/show people without, as you put it; *losing the sale!*



Bayboy said:


> Still sounded like crap and I explained why in depth.
> 
> Both was suggested to abandon hope of using a conventional box and possibly the current subs. I explained that a simple 4th order bandpass even with a small sub that would vent through the rear deck would not only totally improve the in-cab performance, but would solve the rattling issues as well. Of course they nodded in agreement, but never tried that option. Just eventually gave up period or kept buying different subs. I too gave up and said whatever... closed minded people like that are not worth my time trying to help.


*Question:* Do you think that if you actually demo'd a Bandpass, instead of explaining, would it have helped them to change their minds?


Maybe I'm still working on the theory that my friends £250 Active Vibe Sub could be done cheaper and/or better. Either that or I'll given up on the whole box build thing and just continue to review pre fabs! The thing is how many people have listened to a T-line, a 4th or 6th order, an Aperiodic, an Isobaric, a Horn, an 8" with an aero port, or even something like a Shallow mount sub. I haven't, and until i get building, I probably never will. I'm doing it out of my own curiosity. 

I just hate to think that all my friends are wasting their money on Vibe or edge or even something worse when they could buy a pair of CDT or JL for the same money, and really hear their music. Those Vibe Black Death 6x9 things are a joke!

Give me a £130 budget for a pair of 6x9's and i would have come up with a far better choice than those Black Deaths. 

For me however it's a matter of Loudness and space. Can I really get an 8" to sound like a 12"? 



ameuba10 said:


> I dont mean to down play any of his designs, he obviously has dedicated a lot of time and effort into his work. I believe that with his knowledge, he should cater to a slightly different audience. Yes, I know that tapped horns are more effiecient, everyone does. But to post a video of some immature white boy highschoolers saying "Yo dude, that sounds like two twelves man!" seems to not shed the best light on his work. Generally these are the types of people who won't spend $60 on just a design that they have to build, but will spend $60 on a sub and an amp.


If you sit anyone in a car, and ask them if they can tell if it an 8", 10" or 12", how much power, where is the sub mounted on the baffle, what type of enclosure it is, you'd rarely get the right answer from anyone. I imagine not even Pete himself could do it. But again my friend prefered the DD308 8" pre-fab subwoofer to his twin 10" vibe custom built subwoofer. I should have asked him why, but he spent a week with it and love it.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> I haven't been on here since the turn of the new year, So Happy New Year to everyone.


And to you



captainscarlett said:


> I'm in contact with a car audio distributor that says much the same thing. At the moment what with DLS, CDT, Diamond and Genesis going "Pop!" (A term used by a kind sales agent from one of the better known UK car audio shops) everyone is throwing their hands in the air and saying that no one is interested in high-end car audio at the moment.


Hmm, who've you been talking to? Genesis are back up and running after relocating their factory-can't do the custom cases anymore but otherwise same known quality as before. Not heard anything of DLS, CDT or Diamond having any issues-other than Diamonds build quality not being what it was. Having said that I know Alpine are to pull their SPX and SWX from their UK line up when they're out of stock they won't be ordering any more, Pioneer don't seem to be releasing the replacement for the 88RS over here either (at least it's not on the price list yet)



captainscarlett said:


> Having gone for an job interview at Halfords (i needed the money!) it's obvious the car audio industry in the UK and Europe, is in decline. It seems the only companies that will survive will be companies who are very well established, JL, Morel (possibly), Vibe (sadly), or companies that have an income stream elsewhere I’m thinking about the likes of Pioneer, Kenwood, Sony (the lower end players) and the likes of Dynaudio who haven't invested heavily in the car audio scene.


Pioneer aren't a lower end player-their £350 PRS comps will lay waste to much more exotic and expensive drivers, the ODR range will lay waste to most! Alas most of the rest of your statement is true




captainscarlett said:


> Maybe because i'm still a bit starry eyed about the whole thing, but if someone can spend £600 on a vibe system (my friend) or £200-300 on a vibe sub, or spend £130 on a pair of black death speakers, then they're perfectly capable of spending £130 on a pair of ... Morel or JL!


Vibe have the best marketing in this country so will sell more, their ranges are "higher power" for the same money as Morel or JL, look cooler (if you're 17), have more outlets, have more nuthuggers and are selling to a less educated market-there will always be more Fords on the road than Ferraris!



captainscarlett said:


> My man says much the same thing. I've heard many UK car audio shops say that companies just push, push push. One online store told me that 'a' particular brand wanted the online store in question to stock/sell £10k worth of gear per month ... which the online store said, was plain stupid. And so the online store now goes outside the official UK Distribution in favour of a Euro Dist. who puts no pressure on them at all.


I would be surprised if that were true, more likely he can just get the stock cheaper from the EU and needs to do so to compete.




captainscarlett said:


> Ground Zero are another one, who started well, however my contact said the margins for GZ have been getting smaller and smaller until it's not worth it. And so he concentrated on InPhase as the margins are big. there are a few other Manu. that offer good margins, but not many. But I just think there's more to the UK Car Audio scene than InPhase or Vibe. It's just a matter of, how do you tell/show people without, as you put it; *losing the sale!*


Ground Zero were distributed by Connects 2, which was fine-everyone could get it and Con2 had no other agenda. It's now distributed by a car audio retailer-meaning they can control the market, making it more expensive for their competitors/trade customers so they get the retail sale instead of the trade sale.



captainscarlett said:


> Maybe I'm still working on the theory that my friends £250 Active Vibe Sub could be done cheaper and/or better. Either that or I'll given up on the whole box build thing and just continue to review pre fabs! The thing is how many people have listened to a T-line, a 4th or 6th order, an Aperiodic, an Isobaric, a Horn, an 8" with an aero port, or even something like a Shallow mount sub. I haven't, and until i get building, I probably never will. I'm doing it out of my own curiosity.


TBH even working in the trade for 13years and haven't heard and aperiodic, horn (save Pioneer's off the shelf TS-WX77) or T-line enclosure-but working 6days a week leaves me little time to attend shows where I could hear them-if they were common enclosures I'd have stood a better chance, but aperiodic is not something I've seen in a UK install since the mid 90's (and then I only saw it in Max Power) and the others are too big costly. Having said that I'm ready to start making sawdust for my 1st tapped horn-should be flat 18Hz to 100Hz-but thats for my living room. I also imported some Variovents from PE or Madisound which I need to start playing with-but again time is my enemy. Shallow mount subs I've done quite a few enclosures, I've got one in my car atm and love it, have a spare for missus car(when I get time) and do them for customers at work.



captainscarlett said:


> I just hate to think that all my friends are wasting their money on Vibe or edge or even something worse when they could buy a pair of CDT or JL for the same money, and really hear their music. Those Vibe Black Death 6x9 things are a joke!
> 
> Give me a £130 budget for a pair of 6x9's and i would have come up with a far better choice than those Black Deaths.


Try and educate them, it's hard sometimes, but worth it.Give me a £130 budegt for 6x9s and I'd spend it on better front speakers/deadening instead-rears are largely a waste of time, unless you're running 5.1 or L-R



captainscarlett said:


> For me however it's a matter of Loudness and space. Can I really get an 8" to sound like a 12"?


Yes, you can-within reason. At low volumes an 8/10/12/15 should all sound the same if the enclosures were designed with the same goals and these have been met, once you get into higher volumes it becomes harder for the smaller drivers to keep up due to lack of cone area and becoming less linear at higher excursion. If the system is properly designed you shouldn't "know" there is a sub in there at all.



captainscarlett said:


> If you sit anyone in a car, and ask them if they can tell if it an 8", 10" or 12", how much power, where is the sub mounted on the baffle, what type of enclosure it is, you'd rarely get the right answer from anyone. I imagine not even Pete himself could do it. But again my friend prefered the DD308 8" pre-fab subwoofer to his twin 10" vibe custom built subwoofer. I should have asked him why, but he spent a week with it and love it.


No, I doubt there's many who could. I'd imagine that yours just integrated better with his mids and is more SQ orientated than the Vibe.


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

Actually Pete is just recently single. His x wife was pretty cool and she guest stars in his earlier stuff.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> Hmm, who've you been talking to?


I talk to everyone and anyone and if I don't know I ask. Something I gained from my years in recruiment. I've talked to CAD, Sextons, Alarming Entertainment, CarAudioSecurity. I'm not in competition as i'm not selling, so they're more than willing to talk. I've have good 30-45 mins conversations with most of them on the phone. It was only by talkig to someone at CAD that I realised that talkaudio is their (CAD) forum. I do also have contacts at CarAudioCentre as well. 



The Baron Groog said:


> Having said that I know Alpine are to pull their SPX and SWX from their UK line up when they're out of stock they won't be ordering any more


This seems to be happening more and more though. seems like Vibe is flooding the market. My contact also say InPhase are his main earner. However if i have the ability to influence and if i feel there are other better brands to consider, then I'm gonna say. Frazer, my friend who's just spent 600 on his Vibe system, heard for himself, that my system (to him) sounded better and for less money (DDsub, Morel Fronts, JL amp) It's about getting the word out there. 

I'm really, really interested in box building rather than selling. but I understand that selling is going to be a part of it. 

The only other annoying thing is getting to test/own the speakers I particularly want. And some U.S. manufacturers aren't in the UK yet. HAT used to go via CAD but now they're going via directice, but the range isn't huge. Same goes for DC, Sundown, Adictive Audio and some of the JL speakers. The issue is also price, that's why I've been looking at buying from woofersetc and sonicelectronix taking into account that the last time i got caught by customs was for a whole bunch of headphones and it cost me £50 or so. But I understand that getting hold of certain subs and speakers is a personal thing and that i don't expect someone to start a new account simply to service me with one pair or one subwoofer! But on price alone, even if i get caught by Royla Mail customs, the savings can be huge. 




The Baron Groog said:


> Pioneer aren't a lower end player-their £350 PRS comps will lay waste to much more exotic and expensive drivers, the ODR range will lay waste to most! Alas most of the rest of your statement is true


I phrased that wrong, i meant to say 'Mainstream' the big names, JVC, Kenwood, Sony, Pioneer. 



The Baron Groog said:


> there will always be more Fords on the road than Ferraris!


I know what you're saying, however if the ferrari is the same price!! But i see your point about high power for the same money and people getting attracted to that .. poor people. All I hear from my Vibe friends are about blown speakers and unrealiable amps. For me my 250watt amp and 70 watts for my speakers is quite enough ... for now

I think if and when i get started I can carve a nice little market for myself. I have contacts here and there who are illing to take orders and sell my stuff, but of course i want to make more custom boxes like Pete and others. I would love a custom built box, but in the UK I don't know who to use?



The Baron Groog said:


> horn (save Pioneer's off the shelf TS-WX77)


Is that a horn?

Foto de Pioneer - TS-WX77A/XCN/EW Service Manual on Windows Drivers Downloads


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> I talk to everyone and anyone and if I don't know I ask. Something I gained from my years in recruiment. I've talked to CAD, Sextons, Alarming Entertainment, CarAudioSecurity. I'm not in competition as i'm not selling, so they're more than willing to talk.


*With some of the info they've given you they should know better and have kept their gob shut!*



captainscarlett said:


> I've have good 30-45 mins conversations with most of them on the phone. It was only by talkig to someone at CAD that I realised that talkaudio is their (CAD) forum.


*Thats why I found this place-unbiased views rather than nuthuggers and product placement-again most of the uneducated masses don't realise the "impartial" forum they're on is run by a car audio retailer pimping their own products*



captainscarlett said:


> I do also have contacts at CarAudioCentre as well.
> 
> This seems to be happening more and more though. seems like Vibe is flooding the market. My contact also say InPhase are his main earner. However if i have the ability to influence and if i feel there are other better brands to consider, then I'm gonna say. Frazer, my friend who's just spent 600 on his Vibe system, heard for himself, that my system (to him) sounded better and for less money (DDsub, Morel Fronts, JL amp) It's about getting the word out there.
> 
> I'm really, really interested in box building rather than selling. but I understand that selling is going to be a part of it.


*Good work getting the feelers out-but really think hard before you enter into anything as far as going full time to make enclosures; there was a UK company making hi-end enclosures about 5-8years back, birch ply and whatever you wanted-disappeared as fast as they appeared. The biggest UK box maker I deal with on a weekly basis and he's not finding things easy. I'd hazzard 95% of boxes sold in the UK are pre-fab cheap **** from China-reason they're cheap and again we go back to the uneducated market who're concerned with LOUDNESS and CHEAPNESS, not quality, innovation or SQ.*



captainscarlett said:


> The only other annoying thing is getting to test/own the speakers I particularly want. And some U.S. manufacturers aren't in the UK yet. HAT used to go via CAD but now they're going via directice, but the range isn't huge. Same goes for DC, Sundown, Adictive Audio and some of the JL speakers. The issue is also price, that's why I've been looking at buying from woofersetc and sonicelectronix taking into account that the last time i got caught by customs was for a whole bunch of headphones and it cost me £50 or so. But I understand that getting hold of certain subs and speakers is a personal thing and that i don't expect someone to start a new account simply to service me with one pair or one subwoofer! But on price alone, even if i get caught by Royla Mail customs, the savings can be huge.


*Again, we're back to an uneducated market, not aware of anything other than Jap or Vibe, and and high risk for the importer-if you get left with a load of stock you're buggered! Car audio is fast paced and there's boner products and brands one minute and then onto the next and everyone's forgotten about your brand. Part of this is down to the distributor, but part down to the brand itself: Rockford-who anyone? "High end" users are very thin on the ground-hence Alpine dropping SPX and SWX from their range, if they're not selling those then it should ring warning bells for the whole industry.*



captainscarlett said:


> I know what you're saying, however if the ferrari is the same price!! But i see your point about high power for the same money and people getting attracted to that .. poor people. All I hear from my Vibe friends are about blown speakers and unrealiable amps. For me my 250watt amp and 70 watts for my speakers is quite enough ... for now


*Aye, but by the time the "same price Ferrari" is imported into the UK, the distributor puts a high margin on to reflect import/exchange rate/warranty costs and the high risk of launching a brand into a less interested market said Ferarri is now Zonda money and puts even more people off buying it.

With regard to your Vibe friends it most likely won't all be product fault(though you know how highly I rate it!)-most of the issues we have with cheaper ranges is not the product but the way it is being used (abused) by someone with no understanding of how anything works or why they keep blowing stuff up*



captainscarlett said:


> I think if and when i get started I can carve a nice little market for myself. I have contacts here and there who are illing to take orders and sell my stuff, but of course i want to make more custom boxes like Pete and others. I would love a custom built box, but in the UK I don't know who to use?


*Be careful, call me and say you can make me folded tapped horns or TLs and I'll say great, I'll take some form you when I need them-which may well be never. There are always people willing to purchase products when they need them-just not willing to stock them when they don't. The margins worked on in car audio are so slim that people won't hold stock of non-regular products-I had the Sony "rep"(he doesn't actually sell anything!) in the other day and he was telling me some of the big players in the UK are selling Sony below cost just to annoy the competition-in order to do that they have to save elsewhere!*



captainscarlett said:


> Is that a horn?
> Foto de Pioneer - TS-WX77A/XCN/EW Service Manual on Windows Drivers Downloads


Yup, symmetrical rear loaded horn.


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> *With some of the info they've given you they should know better and have kept their gob shut!*


Let them talk!

As to Genesis, This phonecall I had was months and months ago. I have a personal contact in Sweden who is/was closely connected with someone in DLS. My contact Mikael, asked me; why do you want to get into this? There were three big car audio brands in Sweden (??) now there's only one! I guess he was refering to DLS. I was told by some that people that the car audio game in the Uk is a bit catty! An it seems that CAS (you know who I mean) is the shop that get .... mentioned a lot, and not with any positive comments. 



The Baron Groog said:


> *Thats why I found this place-unbiased views rather than nuthuggers and product placement-again most of the uneducated masses don't realise the "impartial" forum they're on is run by a car audio retailer pimping their own products*


I looked at this forum, and I found a lot of good, educational infomation.... information that was given in a way i can undertands as well. 



The Baron Groog said:


> *Good work getting the feelers out-but really think hard before you enter into anything as far as going full time to make enclosures; there was a UK company making hi-end enclosures about 5-8years back, birch ply and whatever you wanted-disappeared as fast as they appeared. The biggest UK box maker I deal with on a weekly basis and he's not finding things easy. I'd hazzard 95% of boxes sold in the UK are pre-fab cheap **** from China-reason they're cheap and again we go back to the uneducated market who're concerned with LOUDNESS and CHEAPNESS, not quality, innovation or SQ.*


There's basszone in Brom ... someone in bedforshire and some guy who used to supply caraudiocentre and a few others I can't recall, but in the southwest, there seems to be nothing. A lot of gear sold, but as far as i can see, very few car meets or anything going on (Plymouth). 




The Baron Groog said:


> *"High end" users are very thin on the ground-hence Alpine dropping SPX and SWX from their range, if they're not selling those then it should ring warning bells for the whole industry.*


When I think 'High-End' I think Morel, Dynaudio, Audison, DLS, CDT, those are the first five that come inot my mind. You notice the absense of Alpine. Now why is that? JL Audio for me are the Sennheiser of the Car Audio world. Good default brand, good quality products, and in fact everyone I spoke to mentioned JL as a 'Consistant" performer. I get that feeling the high-end is suffering. I wonder how JL are doing? There is a lot to choose from, however it's the usual names that get picked time and time again ... much to my horror. I see it in where i live. 




The Baron Groog said:


> *
> 
> With regard to your Vibe friends it most likely won't all be product fault(though you know how highly I rate it!)-most of the issues we have with cheaper ranges is not the product but the way it is being used (abused) by someone with no understanding of how anything works or why they keep blowing stuff up*


Well there is a bit of that. My friend hooked up his 6x9's to a 500watt amp and wondered why they blew!!

As for getting people to stock my boxes .. I wish! For me this will be more of a supliment to my income. I hope for more, but don't we all. I just need to start and make a name for myself. If people want to continue in ignorance, that's fine, but I'm not (intentionally) going to sell more ignorance. 

Of course some people like Pete's work, some have other thoughts, but Pete can't escape that sort of attention. You come to me and I'm gonna tell you; the shop who sold you this has just sold you a load of expensive garbage! 

I'm not here to say after 18 months 2 years as an enthusiast I know everything I don't, but I've been on this forum asking about cabin gain, phase, different designs etc, 'because i want to learn as much as i can. 

Having a heated discussion a few weeks ago by someone who claimed he knew a lot more than me, I explained that i was interested in building a Transmission line sub. What's that? And so what are the T/S parametres for your kenwood sub? Surely you looked at it before you installed it into that ill fitting pre-fab box? .... blank stare! Don't get me wrong, that was me 12 months ago, but I'm willing to learn. 

Fakeheadphones is for people who want to stay away from or who have unwhitingly bought counterfeit headphones. If you want to tell little jonny that you've bought him a pair of Dr Dre headphones for christmas, having paid $189 instead of $349 for them, fine. Just don't moan when they snap, and countefeit Monster headphones do have a habit of snapping! 

If people want to waste their money on ignorance, then I can't stop them. I can only carve out a little slice of the market for those who want something better than the expensive garbage that some of them have in their cars. 

Like fakeheadphones.com I can either sit by and do nothing, or I can get involved and show people a better way. As I say on the topic of fakes; I'd rather shout about it, get it wrong and put my hands up, than know something is wrong, and do nothing!!! Fortunately, the car audio industry doesn't seem to be as affected as the headphone world when it comes to counterfeits. That won't last forever!

I know people whince when I say; I like the Bose OE headphones, They're small, compact enought to fit in your pocket, they one of the most comfotable headphones I've owned and the performance is good for the sizre and type of headphones they are. In fact, they're one of the best headphones I've heard for a sub portable headphone catergory! I've had my pair for 6 years and you'd have to fight me for them. 

I hear all this Bose bashing "By Other Sound Equipemnt" etc and I just roll my eyes. Do you think I make a statement like that for fun, or do you think I make a statement like that because I've owned well over 100+ pairs of headphones Beyer, Ultrasone, AKG, Grado, Alessandro Stax, Radiopaq, Ultiamte Ears, VSonic, artne, I even bought a pair of Skullcandy just so i could go on a forum and say; Skullcandy are garbabge .. which they are! My site is sponsored by the biggest names in the industry, and after many years testing and helping manufacturers develop headphones, and having owned the Bose Triport (now Classic), Bose OE, Bose IE earphones, I might just know what I'm talking about. 



> *Question:* Do you think that if you actually demo'd a Bandpass, instead of explaining, would it have helped them to change their minds?


I think people like my friend need to experience for themsleves, first hand, what we 'talk about'. 

I don't think advice has to be complex or lenghty. Like my friend Frazer, surely what people need to do is to *hear or experience the diiference*. I'll never forget his face when he heard my system, and my system is nothing special, just a a hotchpotch of bits and pieces, but I've asked for 'set up' advice, and I've acted on it. I gave Frazer a clip 'round the ear for spending that much on what he's got. 


*
NB*
I wonder if the U.S. car audio market is going through the same ... crisis? Am I right in hearing that CDT is struggling/gone bust? Anyone? 

I'd love to try CDT stuff.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> I wonder if the U.S. car audio market is going through the same ... crisis? Am I right in hearing that CDT is struggling/gone bust? Anyone?
> 
> I'd love to try CDT stuff.


They just released an all-new high-end midrange woofer that's been under development for more than a year, plus the CL-6 6.5" entry level mid is new for 2012 with a cast basket instead of a stamped basket. As a dealer I think this is a good sign they're doing OK. They have branched off into home A/V with Sonawall.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

trumpet said:


> They just released an all-new high-end midrange woofer that's been under development for more than a year, plus the CL-6 6.5" entry level mid is new for 2012 with a cast basket instead of a stamped basket. As a dealer I think this is a good sign they're doing OK. They have branched off into home A/V with Sonawall.


Thanks for the correction. But I do keep on hearing, or I have heard a few times about how ... DLS, Diamond and Rainbow have gone under. CDT to my eyes continue to bring out new products, which I'd love to try one day. 

But again when questioned about SQ, Alpine (amongst many other) didn't come to my mind. If I think about 'Quality' JL comes to mind. For SPL, DD and Ground Zero springs to mind. So despite many people who complain about companies pouring their money into marketing rather than developing their products, how much of that is true? 

If my sub 18-30 year old friends are spending their hard earned money on Vibe, isn't it about capturing and developing a certain market. I don't see CDT's website with young ladies in suspenders caressing various speakers or subwoofers, unlike some manufacturers.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Alpine have done some of the best "SQ" equipment ever to be fitted in cars-they and Clarion are the only BIG BRAND car audio manufacturers to ONLY do car audio. The SPX range are re-worked Scanspeak drivers, older SQ drivers were Dynaudio and I'm sure there have been others in the mix. However do not be put off by this-lots of car audio is OEM'd by someone else-TC Sounds make the Ground Zero plutonium subs for them (and others I'm sure). JL are a good brand, quality products and reputation-strictly speaking I wouldn't class them as "hi-end"-more of an Audi than a Maybach.

BOSE do some good equipment-if that's what you're after. I have one of their ipod sound docks and for what it is it sounds great. I've compared it to other "better/bigger/costlier" docks and it was better than all of them. Their car systems are better than the base option and for most more than good enough-same as for most people the ipod headphones are good enough-for the users of this forum it would be sub-par to what we expect.

I don't know who's feeding you the info of brands in trouble-sounds like a dealer trying to switch you off the product you're asking about onto one he has in stock.

With regard to them hearing the difference-even that doesn't always work! 1stly a bandpass box is going to be very car dependant on how well it works, 2ndly 17yr olds don't like SQ-they like LOUD. I used to run a demo car with Dynaudio 342GT run active off Diamond D9 amps, Alto mobile crossover and two 10" Diamond D6 subs-used to go to the cruises and they'd not bat an eyelid-some POS with a terrible sound but loud system would always bring them over instead. Like fine wine, it take time for tastes to mature...


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> Alpine have done some of the best "SQ" equipment ever to be fitted in cars-they and Clarion are the only BIG BRAND car audio manufacturers to ONLY do car audio. The SPX range are re-worked Scanspeak drivers, older SQ drivers were Dynaudio and I'm sure there have been others in the mix. However do not be put off by this-lots of car audio is OEM'd by someone else-TC Sounds make the Ground Zero plutonium subs for them (and others I'm sure). JL are a good brand, quality products and reputation-strictly speaking I wouldn't class them as "hi-end"-more of an Audi than a Maybach.
> 
> BOSE do some good equipment-if that's what you're after. I have one of their ipod sound docks and for what it is it sounds great. I've compared it to other "better/bigger/costlier" docks and it was better than all of them. Their car systems are better than the base option and for most more than good enough-same as for most people the ipod headphones are good enough-for the users of this forum it would be sub-par to what we expect.
> 
> ...



Like I said .. maybe I'm still a bit starry eyed about it all, but if loud is what they want ... 

About the various companies that were spoken about, If it had come from one source then i would be suspicious of selling motives, but the Diamond name keeps on coming up. I did get an in depth history of DLS and Genesis from (i wish my memory was better) it might have been Alarming Entertainment who ... were .. the DLS dealer for the UK at one point ??? But it's good to know Genesis are still running. As for Diamond, not got around to investigated their products in any great depth. Looked at a sub or two, but nothing more. 

As for Bose, the only car audio system was in the Madza RX8 I test drove. The Bose was OK, the car ... was ok, heavy gear change and stearing and 23-24 mpg max. I'd rather have a jag or something that looks and feels as though it should only do 23 mpg. 



The Baron Groog said:


> 17yr olds don't like SQ-they like LOUD


 What about stuuf that looks flash? Not to say the Monster sub (links below) don't sound good. 

monsterlab: Mi nuevo Juguete JL audio 8W7
monsterlab: De sombrereras y otras modificaciones
monsterlab: Flared End Creature
monsterlab: ¨Slut¨ Port



The Baron Groog said:


> I used to run a demo car with Dynaudio 342GT


I do like Dynaudio speakers. One f the best home audio set ups I heard had Dynaudio floorstanding speakers on the end of it. I've owned the Dynaudio MC15 speakers. I'd like to get a bit of Dyn in the car, however I do realsie they need a good amp set up, and I just don't have the money at the moment.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> Like I said .. maybe I'm still a bit starry eyed about it all, but if loud is what they want ...
> 
> About the various companies that were spoken about, If it had come from one source then i would be suspicious of selling motives, but the Diamond name keeps on coming up. I did get an in depth history of DLS and Genesis from (i wish my memory was better) it might have been Alarming Entertainment who ... were .. the DLS dealer for the UK at one point ??? But it's good to know Genesis are still running. As for Diamond, not got around to investigated their products in any great depth. Looked at a sub or two, but nothing more.


Diamond are still trading, distributed in the UK by Tova, who also distributes Rockford Fosgate Cerwin Vega and some others: Pro-Plus Sound



captainscarlett said:


> As for Bose, the only car audio system was in the Madza RX8 I test drove. The Bose was OK, the car ... was ok, heavy gear change and stearing and 23-24 mpg max. I'd rather have a jag or something that looks and feels as though it should only do 23 mpg.


If I had the RX8 the BOSE wouldn't even get turned on, it'd be a straight through SS exhaust and 9000rpm all the way-I love that Wankle engine! (the old RX7 turbo was better-though truely horrendus MPG) To be fair to BOSE the car systems are a compromise-I'm sure they'd put a better system in given extra budget.




captainscarlett said:


> What about stuuf that looks flash? Not to say the Monster sub (links below) don't sound good.
> 
> monsterlab: Mi nuevo Juguete JL audio 8W7
> monsterlab: De sombrereras y otras modificaciones
> ...


Lovely enclosures, most would be close to the cost of the sub going in them-if not more, so while the Vibe brigade may like the look of them they'd rather spend less, get more subs and have a name their mates recognise on the box. 




captainscarlett said:


> I do like Dynaudio speakers. One f the best home audio set ups I heard had Dynaudio floorstanding speakers on the end of it. I've owned the Dynaudio MC15 speakers. I'd like to get a bit of Dyn in the car, however I do realsie they need a good amp set up, and I just don't have the money at the moment.


The amp isn't as important as you'd think. Hi-end amps often aren't spectaculary different to cheap amps-the main differences you are paying for (no particular order): 
better components-cost more, little affect on sound (if any while car is moving), improved reliability, better tolerances
better build quality-from better components, leads to better reliability
better reliablity-no need to explain that!
better name
smaller production runs-higher cost, less economies of scale
better specs-actually truthful about what the product does, performs to stated spec or surpasses them

By the time you have any amp in a moving car the differences in SQ are going to be much more difficult or impossible for anyone to detect (search "all amps sound the same") and the job of an amplifier is just to amplify-it should not impart any colour to the sound. 

I run Genesis amps because:
They're British-good to support our flagging manufacturing industry
Their customer service-Gordon Taylor (who is on here sometimes) has the best customer service of anyone at any company I have ever dealt with-and he's the boss, so not someone I'd expect to answer an email within 5mins on a Saturday 
They're well built
They're reliable
They're well designed (all terminals on one side makes for a cleaner install)
IF I have any issue with one (I have 5) I can get it serviced and a new 12 month warranty-so effectively I can keep extending the warranty FOR EVER!
They sound great


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

The Baron Groog said:


> I run Genesis amps because:
> They're British-good to support our flagging manufacturing industry
> Their customer service-Gordon Taylor (who is on here sometimes) has the best customer service of anyone at any company I have ever dealt with-and he's the boss, so not someone I'd expect to answer an email within 5mins on a Saturday
> They're well built
> ...


perfect...... Love that response.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> Diamond are still trading, distributed in the UK by Tova, who also distributes Rockford Fosgate Cerwin Vega and some others: Pro-Plus Sound


Well I spoke to another lovely gentleman today, and he echoed much the same story as yourself. He said a lot of the 'Distibution channels have gone ... a miss' however DLS, and CDT are doing very well for themsleves. without dropping names, one of the shops i spoke to was a distibutor for one of the said brands.... anyway ... 



The Baron Groog said:


> If I had the RX8 the BOSE wouldn't even get turned on, it'd be a straight through SS exhaust and 9000rpm all the way-I love that Wankle engine! (the old RX7 turbo was better-though truely horrendus MPG) To be fair to BOSE the car systems are a compromise-I'm sure they'd put a better system in given extra budget.


That little wankle engine is something else. Its a bit creepy because yuou put your foot down and you get a small hairdryer noise, not your usual whoomp from a usual engine. However I did find the steering heavy, the gera change was a laugh and the sub 24mpg max ... i'd still rather go for a used Jag if that's all it'll do. 



The Baron Groog said:


> Lovely enclosures, most would be close to the cost of the sub going in them-if not more, so while the Vibe brigade may like the look of them they'd rather spend less, get more subs and have a name their mates recognise on the box.


I agree, which is why i'm having a bit of a rethink.




The Baron Groog said:


> the job of an amplifier is just to amplify-it should not impart any colour to the sound.


it shouldn't! ..... 



The Baron Groog said:


> I run Genesis amps because:
> They're British-good to support our flagging manufacturing industry
> Their customer service-Gordon Taylor (who is on here sometimes) has the best customer service of anyone at any company I have ever dealt with-and he's the boss, so not someone I'd expect to answer an email within 5mins on a Saturday
> They're well built
> ...



Stupid question, but that's not Gordon - The Amp Doctor Gordon is it? I'm sure there's more than one Gordon in car audio. 

To me this is much the same on in the headphone market. You'll get your people buying Sennheiser (hugely counterfeited) Monster Dr Dre (hugely counterfeited) Bose, Skullcandy (don't get em started!) and then you have brands that are lesser ... known Audio Techinca, Ultrasone, etc. 

Then you have your enthusiast market, the kind of people who will spend more on cable in order to recable their headphones, than on the headphones themselves, or who'll spend $100's on a pair of custom earcups, $1,000's on a headphone amp. Sure, that market is never going to topple the consumer market, however there is still a market for it. I doubt if a specialist company like Steg will ever make as much as Vibe, yet Steg still has a market share. 

As for the Genesis amp ... and the SQ thing, for the most part when people show off, isn't in some carpark somewhere, or in a demo car. For the most part ... stationary? Just throwing it out there.

Like I say, I could still be starry eyed about all this, and will have to face a very rude awakening. 

On the subject of amps, I heard that both Genesis and DLS are one of the best performers for SQ. One shop i spoke to said they powered their demo stand with a DLS amp and when they took it out, no matter what amp they used, it simply didn't compare. However I was also told the DLS moved their manufacturing or something and that the older amps are better if you can still get hold of them. Any guidance on this?


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> Well I spoke to another lovely gentleman today, and he echoed much the same story as yourself. He said a lot of the 'Distibution channels have gone ... a miss' however DLS, and CDT are doing very well for themsleves. without dropping names, one of the shops i spoke to was a distibutor for one of the said brands.... anyway


Yup, there used to be BBG, who had Phoenix Gold, JL Audio and others-were big enough to get PG to make a series of amps for them. AVHQ who used to distribute Dynaudio, Diamond Audio and some others. FSM who did Stinger, Magnat, Phase Linear. Axis who had Cerwin Vega, DLS and CDT IIRC-they became part of Four-Cars. Now most of the distribution is done by retailers, who sell the product on their site for less than they sell it to trade customers-killing competition and the industry alike.



captainscarlett said:


> Stupid question, but that's not Gordon - The Amp Doctor Gordon is it? I'm sure there's more than one Gordon in car audio.


Yup, that'd be him-careful, he posses a wicked sense of humour!



captainscarlett said:


> To me this is much the same on in the headphone market. You'll get your people buying Sennheiser (hugely counterfeited) Monster Dr Dre (hugely counterfeited) Bose, Skullcandy (don't get em started!) and then you have brands that are lesser ... known Audio Techinca, Ultrasone, etc.


As you know I'm looking for some good headphones for reference purposes-can't believe what the Beats By crap sells for! Still trying to find something I'm comfortable parting my hard earned for-looks like I'm going to have to break my £100 budget



captainscarlett said:


> Then you have your enthusiast market, the kind of people who will spend more on cable in order to recable their headphones, than on the headphones themselves, or who'll spend $100's on a pair of custom earcups, $1,000's on a headphone amp. Sure, that market is never going to topple the consumer market, however there is still a market for it. I doubt if a specialist company like Steg will ever make as much as Vibe, yet Steg still has a market share.


Yep, I've been shocked by some of the money going into cans-for that money you could have some great floor standers! I'd never use them for anything but setting up my system-so still finding it hard to go over the £100 mark. Funny you mention Steg-had someone in with an old Steg amp the other day-couldn't find who, if anyone, was distributing them over here any more (It was actually a re-badged Audio System "twister" but nevermind!)



captainscarlett said:


> As for the Genesis amp ... and the SQ thing, for the most part when people show off, isn't in some carpark somewhere, or in a demo car. For the most part ... stationary? Just throwing it out there.


Yup, true-but the quality isn't as important as "how loud or cool it looks" to the majority of the car park attendies



captainscarlett said:


> On the subject of amps, I heard that both Genesis and DLS are one of the best performers for SQ. One shop i spoke to said they powered their demo stand with a DLS amp and when they took it out, no matter what amp they used, it simply didn't compare. However I was also told the DLS moved their manufacturing or something and that the older amps are better if you can still get hold of them. Any guidance on this?


I've no direct experience with DLS amps, I've heard their speakers and they were great. If you look at DLS amps you'll notice they bear a very strong resemblence to Genesis amps-this is because Genesis used to make DLS' amps for them and then DLS would sell them as their own brand. This stopped when DLS began selling into the same markets as Genesis. The older amps were hand made in the UK, the newer stuff made in a build house in Asia-there's loads of info on DLS/Genesis in threads on this site and others. Otherwise ask Gordon, if he's not bored of telling people you may be in luck!


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> . Now most of the distribution is done by retailers, who sell the product on their site for less than they sell it to trade customers-killing competition and the industry alike.


Well that's what I thought. I had a lovely guy on the phone, however I thought; the profit margin is tiny, i'm talking ... tiny on what we would deem to be the quality products. For me this doesn't have to start off as a workable income for me. I won't have to sell a load of gear to make the mertgage payments or anything, however with retailers seller to retailers, it just doesn't make sense and I can see the money is being squeezed.

I've spoken to a few distributors and to a few compaines direct, and i've yet to make my choice I just want my friends and associates to enjoy what they pay for, and I know they really haven't got the performance they've paid for!! If they did, then why would they like my cheaper system so much more than their own! What they're buying obviously doesn't really fit their needs, but who's brave enough to point this out? Or i should say, who's got the time, patience and money to point this out. 



The Baron Groog said:


> As you know I'm looking for some good headphones for reference purposes-can't believe what the Beats By crap sells for! Still trying to find something I'm comfortable parting my hard earned for-looks like I'm going to have to break my £100 budget


Alessandro MS-1i headphones $109 including worldwde shipping. Basically Alessadro take Grado headphones driect from the factory, and customise them. The perfrmance falls betwwen the SR80 and SR125, but becasue of the exchange rate, they cost some £20 less than you can buy the Grado SR60i headphones. A bargain, and for £100 I've not tested anything better, and I've owned well over 100+ headphones. 



The Baron Groog said:


> (It was actually a re-badged Audio System "twister" but nevermind!)


II'd like to have a go on something from Audio System



The Baron Groog said:


> Yup, true-but the quality isn't as important as "how loud or cool it looks" to the majority of the car park attendies


OK, however I got this interesting answer to one of my questions. 



> you want to be impressive.....do a low budget ground pounder on some small power. it all comes down to the build, noot how deep your pockets are






The Baron Groog said:


> I've no direct experience with DLS amps, I've heard their speakers and they were great. If you look at DLS amps you'll notice they bear a very strong resemblence to Genesis amps-this is because Genesis used to make DLS' amps for them and then DLS would sell them as their own brand. This stopped when DLS began selling into the same markets as Genesis. The older amps were hand made in the UK, the newer stuff made in a build house in Asia-there's loads of info on DLS/Genesis in threads on this site and others. Otherwise ask Gordon, if he's not bored of telling people you may be in luck!


I remember know, that was the history i was told, as well as being told that both had gone down the drain. As to the the biz thing, the bubble has seemed to have burst ... maybe. I've my own contacts with DLS via a contact with my headphone venture believe it or not. I get the feeling that for DLS things aren't as bad as they seem. So I might take a different route of with low volume but higher quality items. It's a risk! 

But I would still love to pull my friends away from Halfords and the like, and the usual stuff that's on offer down here. But i don't want to be just another retailer, I do want to get into box designs, if not for myself. I do have other markets as well as car audio to consider. I got my fingers in a few pies, just less in car audio.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

captainscarlett said:


> Well that's what I thought. I had a lovely guy on the phone, however I thought; the profit margin is tiny, i'm talking ... tiny on what we would deem to be the quality products. For me this doesn't have to start off as a workable income for me. I won't have to sell a load of gear to make the mertgage payments or anything, however with retailers seller to retailers, it just doesn't make sense and I can see the money is being squeezed.


Yup, people selling Sony below cost to screw over the competition-real dog eat dog!



captainscarlett said:


> I've spoken to a few distributors and to a few compaines direct, and i've yet to make my choice I just want my friends and associates to enjoy what they pay for, and I know they really haven't got the performance they've paid for!! If they did, then why would they like my cheaper system so much more than their own! What they're buying obviously doesn't really fit their needs, but who's brave enough to point this out? Or i should say, who's got the time, patience and money to point this out.


It's a hard thing for some people to separate what the want from what they need. They believe the hype or simply haven't experienced better. John Ruskin (one of my favourite people to quote) says it well:

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better." 



captainscarlett said:


> Alessandro MS-1i headphones $109 including worldwde shipping. Basically Alessadro take Grado headphones driect from the factory, and customise them. The perfrmance falls betwwen the SR80 and SR125, but becasue of the exchange rate, they cost some £20 less than you can buy the Grado SR60i headphones. A bargain, and for £100 I've not tested anything better, and I've owned well over 100+ headphones.


Why can't I find any good reviews for them? People on here have agreed with reviews in stating they're not all that! Might just have to bite the bullet and go for some!




captainscarlett said:


> I remember know, that was the history i was told, as well as being told that both had gone down the drain. As to the the biz thing, the bubble has seemed to have burst ... maybe. I've my own contacts with DLS via a contact with my headphone venture believe it or not. I get the feeling that for DLS things aren't as bad as they seem. So I might take a different route of with low volume but higher quality items. It's a risk!
> 
> But I would still love to pull my friends away from Halfords and the like, and the usual stuff that's on offer down here. But i don't want to be just another retailer, I do want to get into box designs, if not for myself. I do have other markets as well as car audio to consider. I got my fingers in a few pies, just less in car audio.


Honestly be very careful if you're going the high end route-that's the corner of the market suffering the most in the UK. The teens will always be the big spenders: they work but still live with mum and dad so have no rent/mortgage and loads of disposable income. Speakers over £400 a set I've sold a handful in the last year, under £200 I've sold plenty, under £100 100s and under £60 100s more. Why did BBG/AVHQ stop trading? Lack of demand...


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> Why can't I find any good reviews for them? People on here have agreed with reviews in stating they're not all that! Might just have to bite the bullet and go for some!


Not to be disrespectful to anyone here, but I hear such comments all the time, mainly about Bose headphones and the like, and IMHO I simply disagree. 

Goldring DR150 headphones vs. Grado SR60 headphones.

I hope i don't get banned for adding the above link. I can't believe that I didn't do a full write up on them (quick comment near the end) or get a few more pictures of them when i had them. I sold them and I deeply, deeply regret it. In terms of the comments, its like what Pete told me about people who criticise JL Audio; 



> Take the JL Audio W7, for instance: A lot of development time has gone into making it the flagship of a company that is already known for their attention to detail when it comes to driver design. Fittingly, the majority of the consumer feedback reflects this, but where does the negative feedback come from? Does it come from the top professionals in the industry ...


Again, not to be disrespectful of anyone here. I'm not claiming to be the be all and end all of all headphone knowledge, but after owning, testing, comparing, developing well over 100 pairs of headphones in the past few years, I'm simply saying that for under £100 nothing lese would get a look in for me. For sub £200 it' be the Sennheiser HD25-1 headphones. 

Also it's a price thing. In the U.S. price for price, the Alessandro fits in the correct place. In the UK, they don't, they come in nearly $30-40 below the SR60 headphones. If Alessandro sold the MS1i's for $30 less than the SR60i headphones, then what would the comments be?



The Baron Groog said:


> Honestly be very careful if you're going the high end route-that's the corner of the market suffering the most in the UK. The teens will always be the big spenders: they work but still live with mum and dad so have no rent/mortgage and loads of disposable income. Speakers over £400 a set I've sold a handful in the last year, under £200 I've sold plenty, under £100 100s and under £60 100s more. Why did BBG/AVHQ stop trading? Lack of demand...


I'm not looking at the real high-end, just the next step up. I g

I've got a friend in the flat below me, he used to work for Motorworld. He's the one that told me "Subwoofers are for the kids!" I'm going to speak to him and grab some real life facts and figures from him, and like your good self, see if he thinks my ideas will hold any water. 

Of course any distributor is going to tell me the market thriving. If that were the case then wouldn't they simply be distributors and not retailers as well?

But I keep on going over in my mind that; we're in a recession, people down here (Plymouth) don't have the money, etc, etc, but the simple fact is that we still have three car audio shops that are thriving (Halfords not included) and one of them have actually upscaled, and moved to a much larger premises recently, so there's got to be money somewhere? I know the wages in the Southwest cater more to the slave trade, or so people think, but I wasn't earning anymore in the South East or in the North than I did in the South West. renting is near the same price as the south east. The north was a lot cheaper. I was paying £150 less in the north than I am in Plymouth. 

I'm not really looking at £300 speakers, I don't think that would fly down here, but a matter of £50-150 .. maybe. As for subs, I won't really look at anything above £200. I know in my review I actually said the Vibe Black Air 12 was the saving grace of my friends system, with it being powered and all, however as a ported unit, I felt that the Black Air fell flat on its face, and so Fraser keeps both the port bungs in and uses it as a sealed enclosure. 

Let me talk to my friend, and I'll get back to you. I assume he'll echo the same sentiments.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Guys, pull the car out of the ditch and let's get back on topic.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Guys, pull the car out of the ditch and let's get back on topic.


Absolutely. Sorry for highjacking the thread. I have put the question out there, there seems to be a lot of builders like Pete that seems to be doing this full time where in the UK box builders come and go with the wind. I can't work out why that is. So i guess the market is still thriving over there. Any comment? 

As to Pete himself, i still think he's knowledgeable and i look forward to buying one of his blueprints. However I’ve written on his forum, I'm a comparison tester. In isolation any product sounds good or i should say every product has good and bad points. I feel the differences can only be highlighted in some sort of comparison test. 

So whilst I hear good and not so good things about Pete's designs, my question is: how does one really know how good or bad Pete's work is? On what basis has that person come to that conclusion? I see comments like; "I've bought three designs from Pete and they'll all good." and that's about it. Is that a fair comment or am i totally off? 

When i get into this I would be horrified if my customers took it on 'Faith' so to speak, that what I had designed was in some way 'better' without some sort of comparison. 

My friend asked me for a pair of earphones, so i gave him 5 to go away and test, so he could tell me which pair he likes the most. My opinion (apart from selecting the five headphones for him) has no real bearing. 

So when I buy, build a PWK design, believe me I won't simply stick it my trunk and scream about how good or bad his designs sounds. It's going to be tested against other subs. This might be a harsh comment, but I can't see how one can overcome the issue of ignorance in any other way!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I agree.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

captainscarlett said:


> Absolutely. Sorry for highjacking the thread. I have put the question out there, there seems to be a lot of builders like Pete that seems to be doing this full time where in the UK box builders come and go with the wind. I can't work out why that is. So i guess the market is still thriving over there. Any comment?
> 
> As to Pete himself, i still think he's knowledgeable and i look forward to buying one of his blueprints. However I’ve written on his forum, I'm a comparison tester. In isolation any product sounds good or i should say every product has good and bad points. I feel the differences can only be highlighted in some sort of comparison test.
> 
> ...


While I am not arguing for Pete or his plans in this instance, How would you compare his designs against another enclosure? 
His design is based off what criteria you specify. He generally provides a projected performance graph that he has modeled based on woofer enclosure, vehicle and how they mesh together. If something is wrong. T/S, what you thought you wanted, the space requirements etc. You will end up being unhappy.

Which is why I tried a comparison with Ram Audio asking for the exact same things from Ryan I had asked Pete. What I ended up with were two enclosures that performed very far apart. Pete's design most closely matched what I asked for. What Ryan gave me was a low end monster. Great enclosure... Don't get me wrong.

My point is, to compare, you are going to have to be comparing them apples to apples as best you can. This goes of course for comparing anything. It's why I like Erin's tests so much.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

It would seem rather hard to verbally request an enclosure to be designed to play a certain way. It could be oriented to that effect, but to be a perfect turnkey product I'm not sure. Everyone has unique hearing aside from tastes so how does that work? A program that can optimize output is good, but as far as response what are his goals compared to the customer? His vids seem to show a lot of impressive SPL capabilities, but for most here SQ rules. Has anyone here that has experienced his designs ever put the "before and after" on an RTA?

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

PWK usually gets alot of hate, but it is very rarely from someone that purchased a design from him. When you look at people that talk about him, it is usually another box designer that says they can do what he does cheaper or faster. Most that have used him swear by the designs. He does seem more expensive and his turn around time is not good at all, but it does look like he does what he say it will do. The only users that I have ever seen say a bad word about him had a killed sub. The thing about that is most killed subs I have seen were user error not the box design.
I wish someone would come up with a box designers challenge. Pick 5 subs that range in size from an 8" to an 18". For each sub tell the designers that they need to come up with 2 boxes, a spl box and a sq box and have at it. Use an suv and a trunk car and have a competition. Kinda like a bike build off but using subs. Throw all these guys that says the have the best designs and let the best man win.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Personally I haven't seen much criticism on his designs or work. In fact never really heard of him or any other popular designer for that matter until a few months ago. I agree with some of his ideals because I've been building my own boxes for years so some things you come to learn. Some of the complex designs I tend to stray away from since there is usually a simpler alternative. His difference to me seems to be the software to backup the creativity.That's a good thing and I can understand it as bassbox has done the same for me as well, but obviously not to that degree.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Bayboy said:


> *It would seem rather hard to verbally request an enclosure to be designed to play a certain way*. It could be oriented to that effect, but to be a perfect turnkey product I'm not sure. Everyone has unique hearing aside from tastes so how does that work? A program that can optimize output is good, but as far as response what are his goals compared to the customer? His vids seem to show a lot of impressive SPL capabilities, but for most here SQ rules. Has anyone here that has experienced his designs ever put the "before and after" on an RTA?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk


I disagree. We all know that there is a significant amount of low end gain in a vehicle. A lot of that is dependent on the size of the vehicle(small car to SUV) and shape hatchback vs trunk vs open end SUV). The differing responses are documented for several types of vehicles and one, armed with that knowledge could extrapolate or reletively accurately predict a given response based on that knowledge and I would bet past experience.

I wanted fairly flat response for my 15" sub from 30-70 hertz. In car. I was not going to compete with that setup. I listen to predominately rock music with the occasional hip hop rap song depending on who was with me. I wanted the maximum efficiency and gave him the dimensions I was willing to give up. I also explained that I was planning on potentially buying a bigger sub amp (going from 1500 watts to 3000) and to please account for that.

I ended up with a single reflex band passthat peaks about 67 hertz out of the car. Put it in the car and the roll off coupled to the cabin gain is dang near ruler flat. Plus it gets incredibly loud (low mid 140's on the TL sealed). I can EQ in a bit of boost on the low end without worrying about over excursion. Woofer control is maintained by the sealed sise of the enclosure so that on the current amp, I don't have to even run a SSF. AND I have room to grow. All that on a verbal/text quote.

I asked for the same thing from Ram Audio. I got a ported enclosure tuned about 32 hertz. The response was not even close to what I asked for. Did it have more low end? Absofookinlutely!! My son's jaw dropped when he listened and he can get reeeeal close to 150db. I did not meter Ryan's design as I didn't have access to the TL that time. I gave the box to a buddy of my son's for his jimmy. He is using another brand of sub but is tickled to death with the performance. My point for that example is comparing the two enclosures based on what I was wanting would have had the PWK be my choice, but my son and his friend would pick the Ram Audio design. Now comparing the Ram Audio design to the PWK design my son uses, they are very similar in concept. Ported. Tuned in the 30's for audible loudness etc...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

That's a comparison of apples to oranges it seems. Both were given the same request but came at it from different directions. Of course from my experience the box peaking at 67hz and tapering off after that should be relatively flat without much EQ adjustment. That is the same direction that made the original Solobarics so popular (low Qtc/high F3hz). Now as for the other box, it could be assumed that it was ruler flat out of the vehicle and meant to be adjusted by EQ cuts which would raise it's power handling respectively. 

I won't crap on either design because they both can work, but in different ways. Now if they both came up with the same design, then that would be a bit different. Also PWK may have compared group delay in his work and the other may have not. It's hard to say, but after looking at some of his vids I'm sure PWK does consider that. It may be those little things that sets him apart.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

cubdenno said:


> It's why I like Erin's tests so much.


Erin's test??

I don't have an issue with anyone paying Pete or anyone to design an enclosure, in fact I wish more people would take that route. I guess I would do a comparison test the same way I would do any comparison test, and give 3-5-10 designers the same brief or as close as I could with the different design request forms. Use the same sub, and then do a blind test. 

However like i said concerning my friends request for earphones. I didn't ask him what he's looking for, and then went through my sub 20+ pairs of earphones and picked one and told him "This is the near perfect soluton for your particular situattion." I gave him five pairs for him to compare and he can tell me which one he likes. I guess there's that grey area of blind faith that's niggling me and I'm tyring to out a finger on why. Do I believe in Pete, Ryan, Dave whoever? Yes. However there are very bold claims made and as I've said before, I feel that if I had a go, tried to a few program asked for a bit of help and direction I don't feel that i woud end up with an inferior design. Maybe not the the same degree as the Pro's, but ... 

There was one video one of the JL builds can't remember which, but he said (paraphrasing if i can remember) that is was suposed to replace or rival a JL HO box. It was probably a W7 build. I understand its a costly thing to do, because I've done it with fakeheadphones.com, but again I would be horrified if i allowed my sustiomer to take it on blind faith without any sort of comparison that what I'd design and build was in somewya better. I'm going to do a build for my firend, or a rebuild, and I'm gonna test it against his current sub, and allow him to make up his mind which is best. I can only assume that others have done the same with Pete. 

Again comparisons, blind tests, are a costly affiar, however I've found to be a more valid way to gauge a product. 

The other thing I can't get my head around is why Pete has a long waiting list, and you have others that on the face of it seems to be thriving, yet in the UK the box building seems to be a dead duck so to speak.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Maybe they are doing designs for the uk folks too  for the most part Pete doesn't build the boxes unless you really ask him too. He actually recommends Steve Milton (sp) for the actual Enclosure construction. 

From what I've seen of his vids I think the one thing he does that others don't is actually model the response in not only your vehicle type but listening location. I believe that is where his custom software comes in to play. On a couple of his vids you can see where he moves the listening position around in real time and watch the FR change. There is another vid where he shows a fluid model of an enclosure where the response changes based on where the vent is pointing. 

I actually put in an order this past week for a design. Took about three days to review my request and ask if I wanted to proceed. I'm in no hurry at the moment but well see how long it takes to get the design.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

On the face of it, Pete advertises the fact that there's a lot the he does, that others seem to ... bypass. For me an A/B blind test would still be more convincing that's all. 

From and SQ point of view, show me a blind test of a pre fab against a custom design, or even custom box against custom box, get it on Youtube, for me that's be a bit more convincing. 

The only real test I did was on my friend and he prefered the DD308 to his twin 10 custom (not a PWK deisgn!!). I need to get it up on Youube. Not exactly a 'blind' test, he took the DD away for a week.


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## robtr8 (Dec 6, 2011)

Just wanted to voice my support for PWK Designs. 1st box was for my Malibu ski boat. Funky application, very cool solution. Yes the trunk liner covers the port. Keeps the spiders out.

















2nd box was for my kids S70 which is also my HAT/Pioneer demo car. Yes the trunk liner covers the port, again. Can't blame spiders on this one, haven't thought of an excuse yet.


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## Renegadesoundwave (Apr 9, 2012)

I like his style and the effort he has put into his site and work


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