# Stereo Integrity TM65 mkIII impressions



## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

Looking back earlier this year in May I found myself frustrated with the front stage in my truck. I had just completed a new box build for my Q 15 substage and had it dialed for my listening taste, however my front stage was not keeping up in clarity or output. I expect a lot out of my audio gear and want the best blend in output and clarity with the ability to hear the dynamics of music including all the small nuances. 

Back in early July I saw an instagram post from Nick at Stereo Integrity looking for reviewers of the soon to be released TM65 mkIII mid/midbass and decided to send in an email. About a month later I got a call one evening from Nick saying he received my email and asked if I wanted to test out the new TM65’s, without hesitation, I said absolutley! I was very excited for the opportunity and wondered if this would be the front stage solution I was looking for.

The front stage I have been running this year includes Fi N.7 mid/midbass mounted in the doors of my Escalade EXT, SSA Evil silk dome tweeters molded into my A-pillars running active off a Incriminator Audio 6.4 while being controlled by an MS-8. This front stage has solid midbass and good overall output but struggled with clarity and resonance in the male vocal range. I attribute this resonance at a minimum to the lack of stitched tinsel leads in the N.7s. 

When Fedex dropped of the Stereo Integrity TM65 mkIII’s I went to work right away installing them, I couldn’t wait to have a first listen… 

I ran a 24db filter at 80hz for my high pass and 24db filter at 2500 for low pass, my tweeter was also at a 24 db filter at 2500 high pass. I put my graphic EQ to flat and let them rip!

My listening choices included a variety of genres to span different dynamics, songs included:

- Dire Straits: Money For Nothing
- Thomas Rhett: Anthem
- Santana: Smooth
- AC/DC: Thunderstruck
- Michael Jackson: Wanna Be Starting Something’ 
- Snoop Dogg: Murder Was the Case
- The Rolling Stones: Brown Sugar
- Twenty One Pilots: Ride
- Mat Kearney: Money 

Wow, talk about a speaker that does it all! Clarity, midbass, output and awesomeness playing out of these beauties. These are definitely the solution to my front stage blues, they covered all of the dynamics of music I listen too with ease while providing the output to level match my powerful substage. My front stage frustration has been eliminated! Thank you Stereo Integrity! I will 100% be placing my pre-order for these!

Now the hardest part is I have to send them on to others to test, can’t wait until the new TM65 mkIII’s are released. Thank you Nick for the chance to review them.

I'm happy to share more details if anyone wants to PM me.

Jake


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks for the quick review Jake. I'm glad you liked the drivers. You definitely liked them because you placed your pre-order a few seconds before posting this review.


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## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

Electrodynamic said:


> Thanks for the quick review Jake. I'm glad you liked the drivers. You definitely liked them because you placed your pre-order a few seconds before posting this review.



Yes indeed, looking forward to it!


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## Mashburn (Jun 26, 2018)

I have them pre ordered as well, going to pair them with the m25’s and AP NZ3 ALBe’s. Pre ordered just because of how much I loved the Gen 1’s. 

How did you think these handled the track “money”? I play that song frequently at the moment.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Looks like it still has the silly surround style of the mk1. Mine fell apart after a year. "You gotta use nylon washers", whatever.


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

Actually, no. It has a totally different surround that the MKI, its like the MKII.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Im talking about the surround being attached to the metal part where you put screws. So it can twist the surround off.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Looks like it still has the silly surround style of the mk1. Mine fell apart after a year. "You gotta use nylon washers", whatever.


So did you use nylon washers?


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

JVD240 said:


> So did you use nylon washers?


Nope but that wasn't the only Qc issue i had

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Mashburn said:


> ... ordered just because of how much I loved the Gen 1’s.
> 
> How did you think these handled the track “money”? I play that song frequently at the moment.


Are your MkI still playing ??


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Im talking about the surround being attached to the metal part where you put screws. So it can twist the surround off.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


plot twist.. a friend of mines mk1's and his bm subs still fell apart with the nylon washers being used :laugh:


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

My Mk1's have been moved to a second vehicle, and are still playing quite well. The same for my Mkiv Sub. 
Lets not Blame the manufacturer for making an inferior product, when its Possible it was a user related issue. Just Sayin'


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RRizz said:


> My Mk1's have been moved to a second vehicle, and are still playing quite well. The same for my Mkiv Sub.
> Lets not Blame the manufacturer for making an inferior product, when its Possible it was a user related issue. Just Sayin'


idk, an installer of 15 years (my friend) using the supplied hardware still had an issue on 4 out of 4 of his si drivers.. all with the same issue, and a single one with another issue. Maybe reliability and customer service got better from those days, but i dont plan on finding out. i'll just leave it at that.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> idk, an installer of 15 years (my friend) using the supplied hardware still had an issue on 4 out of 4 of his si drivers.. all with the same issue, and a single one with another issue. Maybe reliability and customer service got better from those days, but i dont plan on finding out. i'll just leave it at that.


+1

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

You guys are talking about old stuff and this is a new stuff thread. The other issues are well documented on this forum. I respect both of your opinions but I was disappointed to see another si bashing post not related to the thread topic when I was trying to read a review about the item in thread title.


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## Mashburn (Jun 26, 2018)

Let’s get this thread back on topic instead of crying about three years ago. The rock; did you have any experience with the Gen 1’s or 2’s as a dedicated midbass, or is this your first experience with SI?

Also, has there been an updated ETA that I have missed on here other than the October/November timeframe listed on the website?


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## msueagle350z (Jan 10, 2013)

How do you like these with the evil tweeter? I read your thread (may have been a post) from a while back that you also had the evil 6.5 midbass. Any thoughts on how the two compare? 

I am basically starting from scratch on my front stage again and am looking at all 3 of the "for the people" brands in SI, SSA, and Stevens Audio. While I'm sure there's no bad choice to be made I'm trying to get a better feel on what flavor each brand brings to the table.


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## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

Mashburn said:


> Let’s get this thread back on topic instead of crying about three years ago. The rock; did you have any experience with the Gen 1’s or 2’s as a dedicated midbass, or is this your first experience with SI?
> 
> Also, has there been an updated ETA that I have missed on here other than the October/November timeframe listed on the website?


Sorry for the slow reply, this is my first experience with the SI product.


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## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

msueagle350z said:


> How do you like these with the evil tweeter? I read your thread (may have been a post) from a while back that you also had the evil 6.5 midbass. Any thoughts on how the two compare?
> 
> I am basically starting from scratch on my front stage again and am looking at all 3 of the "for the people" brands in SI, SSA, and Stevens Audio. While I'm sure there's no bad choice to be made I'm trying to get a better feel on what flavor each brand brings to the table.


I loved the Evil tweeter and still use them today. However, I had a hard time getting good mid bass out of the evil 6.5s, they have great clarity though. I put the evil 6.5s in after pulling the SIs after testing, again I was reminded that they can't handle the power to produce the same amount of midbass I experienced from the SI product.


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## Mashburn (Jun 26, 2018)

Has anybody heard an update on the shipment of these? Starting to get really excited!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Subbin...in for some solid feedback.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

When is the pre-order closing?


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## bigabe (May 1, 2007)

Thanks for the quick write-up. I'm planning on ordering some of these myself for a new project (been out of the car audio world for years).


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## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

I have sent a quick email and made a few comments on instagram inquiring into the shipping dates of the speakers but have not yet heard back. Hopefully Nick can post an update soon, Im sure he will when he gets a chance. Cant wait to get these back in my car.


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

I just ordered a set last night. I was going to use Morel 692's but the SI's appear to be a significant upgrade.

I'm also waiting for the next shipment of BM MK V subwoofers. Nick stated it would be "soon".


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I was the first to get these mids in and can confirm they are very powerful and sound great. I too am awaiting my set and cant wait.


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## dmazyn (Apr 29, 2008)

Has anyone heard on when these will ship? They stated Jan but now it's almost march and I have not seen mine. 

I emailed the sales from the site but no response.


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## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

I'm in the same boat, waiting for more information.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Mine just shipped. Ordered it July 2nd, 2018. Should arrive 3/5/19 via FedEx to California.

Order #2677


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Mine just shipped. Ordered it July 2nd, 2018. Should arrive 3/5/19 via FedEx to California.
> 
> Order #2677


Whoa. July 2? That's 7 months!

I didn't get my order in until 3 weeks ago lol.

I hope I get mine this year!

That shipment that was supposed to come in at the end of Feb must have just landed. I hope so. And I hope he ordered extra!


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## therock482 (Aug 24, 2006)

Im order #2749, ordered on 9/3. Hope I get my TM65's in March!


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## TheLex (Jan 25, 2019)

:rockon::rockon::rockon:*ANNOUNCEMENT*:rockon::rockon::rockon:

Nick just posted this on Facebook in response to an inquiry about the TM MKIII and when they will be shipping:

"we have enough for more than everyone who pre-ordered. About 3x extra than were pre-ordered. 

We have started shipping them already but the rest of the drivers are coming in two weeks."


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## Firefighter9 (Sep 23, 2015)

Any opinions on how these compare to the mk2 in a 3 Way?


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## dmazyn (Apr 29, 2008)

I got my pair on Sat. Build looks great too bad my current adapters on my VW GTI did not work so have some on order so have not put any power to them yet. 

Once I get them in and running will post my thoughts.


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

Firefighter9 said:


> Any opinions on how these compare to the mk2 in a 3 Way?


The awesome midbass performance is still there with the new mkIII version as was the previous mkII version but the frequency range between 1,000 and 10,000 is massively improved with the mkIII. The new mkIII version is extremely clean all the way from 45 Hz up to over 9,000 Hz in-car. The previous version had cone breakup at/around 2,000/2,500 Hz. And the new carbon fiber mkIII is a solid 2 to 3 dB more efficient than the previous version so it is louder of the box all the way up through its total output capabilities.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Electrodynamic said:


> The awesome midbass performance is still there with the new mkIII version as was the previous mkII version but the frequency range between 1,000 and 10,000 is massively improved with the mkIII. The new mkIII version is extremely clean all the way from 45 Hz up to over 9,000 Hz in-car. The previous version had cone breakup at/around 2,000/2,500 Hz. And the new carbon fiber mkIII is a solid 2 to 3 dB more efficient than the previous version so it is louder of the box all the way up through its total output capabilities.


Nick, do you have a sealed enclosure recommendation for the mk3 ??

Also could you please explain how it plays clean so low even though it has an Fs of 98hz ??

THANKS!!!


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

seafish said:


> Nick, do you have a sealed enclosure recommendation for the mk3 ??
> 
> Also could you please explain how it plays clean so low even though it has an Fs of 98hz ??
> 
> THANKS!!!



This doesn't answer your question, but I figured someone may want the info. 

I ran the mkII's in dads truck in .40 cuft3 ported 2 x 11.5" and they were spectacular. At one point, we had them playing 45hz/300hz and they were playing every note. They were run off of a Audison Duo 260x2. I'm so excited to get the III's installed and playing. I'm going .50 cuft3 ported on 150w each, Zapco power this time.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Has anyone had or know of a comparison between the SI and Audio Frog? I am looking at a 2 way and these are the two drivers I have had my eye on. Over the weekend I listened to both the AF GB and GS line. The GBs were in a demo truck and were flat out incredible. The GS were on the sound board and very good and I was able to a/b them against a few other drivers the shop had. Of course not in a car, but sounded good. Im not sure I can swallow the GB price but would like to hear how the SI MK3 would compare to either the GB or the GS? I ask simply because I would not have a chance to listen to the SI if I go that route. 

In either case, they would end up active. If the 45 to 9000 in car is true for the MK3, that helps with tweeter selection. I am not as worried about finding a tweeter that I would have to xover lower. I already have some nice ring radiators from old builds that I could use especially since I wouldnt be worried about xover below 3k.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Electrodynamic said:


> The awesome midbass performance is still there with the new mkIII version as was the previous mkII version but the frequency range between 1,000 and 10,000 is massively improved with the mkIII. The new mkIII version is extremely clean all the way from 45 Hz up to over 9,000 Hz in-car. The previous version had cone breakup at/around 2,000/2,500 Hz. And the new carbon fiber mkIII is a solid 2 to 3 dB more efficient than the previous version so it is louder of the box all the way up through its total output capabilities.


You aint kidding brother! I am about to update my review with more details but now that I have my own and they are broken in...... holy hell are they amazing! The mid-range is so clear and clean with tons of mid-bass kick. 
Running all SI components/subs and it has to be the most playful system I have built.


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## Tweezer (Nov 9, 2018)

TheLex said:


> :rockon::rockon::rockon:*ANNOUNCEMENT*:rockon::rockon::rockon:
> 
> Nick just posted this on Facebook in response to an inquiry about the TM MKIII and when they will be shipping:
> 
> ...


What exactly does this mean? If they had enough for everyone who pre-ordered 3 weeks ago, doesn't this mean that everyone who pre-ordered should have their stuff by now?


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## Mashburn (Jun 26, 2018)

I assume that means they have enough built for pre orders, but they are in multiple shipments. I have no evidence to this though.

I have my complete SI system waiting to be installed! M25’s, M3’s, TM65Mkiii’s and 2 BM MkV’s. I can’t wait to get them in and playing!! I had TM65’s when they first came out, can not wait to hear the improvements from those to the Gen 3’s. 

The build quality is excellent with these drivers. Very solid, nice sturdy push terminals. All in all a home run. I will be leaving a review in this thread as well in my build log as soon as they get installed by Mark and I have some seat time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

seafish said:


> Also could you please explain how it plays clean so low even though it has an Fs of 98hz ??
> 
> THANKS!!!


This is keeping me on the sidelines. It sort of defies conventional wisdom. I'm waiting to hear some moar reviews and maybe even in-door measurements before ordering up a pair. 

Not that I'm in any hurry - I've had a pair of MkIIs sitting here for close to 2 years that have never been installed


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

seafish said:


> Nick, do you have a sealed enclosure recommendation for the mk3 ??
> 
> Also could you please explain how it plays clean so low even though it has an Fs of 98hz ??
> 
> THANKS!!!


Just a lil' bump cause I'd be really interested in the answer to this question.


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## Tweezer (Nov 9, 2018)

There's some info on Fs in this thread starting with post #3 that you may want to check out:

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/406210-si-tm65-mkiii-midbass.html


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

seafish said:


> could you please explain how it plays clean so low even though it has an Fs of 98hz ??
> 
> THANKS!!!




Sorry guys, been a bit busy building 24's,18's and RM's. Super busy but I knew this thread was active and that Seafish asked the question of the higher Fs so here is the answer:

The previous mkII version had an Fs in the 75 Hz region and they would play down into the high 30 Hz region in-vehicle. They had a lot of bass, let alone midbass. Many people who have had midbass drivers capable of playing well below where a midbass driver normally plays and they use that ability by high-passing them very low (below 50 Hz, even 30 Hz) know that the 6.5's will tear apart your doors. 

Since 99.99% of our customers use subwoofers we decided to stiffen up the suspension on the mkIII's to limit its lower bandwidth to the 50 Hz region on up when used in a vehicle. And in stiffening the suspension the new mkIII driver is even more mechanically durable when additional power is applied. Free air resonance changed by 20 Hz from 75 Hz to 95 Hz and the in-vehicle response shows exactly what we were after - the mkIII's play very well from 55/60 Hz on up to 10,000 Hz. Substantial overall bandwidth improvement over the mkII and there's also above a 3+ dB increase in sensitivity over the mkIII with it landing a solid 91 dB at 2.83 V.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

I want to try them. Any word on availability?


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

gregerst22 said:


> I want to try them. Any word on availability?


Yes. They are in stock and ready to ship.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

I am pairing my mkiii's to the m25 tweeter in a 2 way active system. Obviously in car response is going to matter for tuning, but what would be a good starting crossover point for this setup? I was running the mk1's and had to cross them lower, but now these can play up way higher than the mk1's.

Also, for those wondering and me maybe in the future, if you throw the m3 in here, where would you/did you cross them over at?


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## Bruneti (Oct 31, 2006)

Electrodynamic said:


> Yes. They are in stock and ready to ship.




Have all Pre-orders been shipped? I have not received a shipping notice on mine. I sent an email to [email protected] with my invoice info a few days ago to inquire, with no response yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## disconnected (May 10, 2017)

Previously, I ran my MKII on 100watts rms down to 45hz with a 36db/octave slope. I didn't need a subwoofer. The doors has CLV, CCF, MLV, fast rings, and fiberglass.


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

disconnected said:


> Previously, I ran my MKII on 100watts rms down to 45hz with a 36db/octave slope. I didn't need a subwoofer. The doors has CLV, CCF, MLV, fast rings, and fiberglass.


That's probably the best point made in this whole thread. If you seal and dampen a door properly, they will do magical things. No speaker will perform optimally in a plug and play scenario. This may also be the discrepancy in performance. I never recommend buying a high end speaker, without properly treating the door first. Would you mount a specific sealed enclosure sub to your rear deck? Even though they work in any scenario, they're much better in an ideal scenario. Actually amazing, IMO.

I used the word scenario way too many times in this thread.


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## 06gtmike (Sep 30, 2009)

Bruneti said:


> Have all Pre-orders been shipped? I have not received a shipping notice on mine. I sent an email to sales[email protected] with my invoice info a few days ago to inquire, with no response yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure if you got your order squared away yet but I would try calling or try this email. Pretty sure all preorders went out a while ago. @Electrodynamic [email protected] or 731-439-9629


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## Bruneti (Oct 31, 2006)

06gtmike said:


> Not sure if you got your order squared away yet but I would try calling or try this email. Pretty sure all preorders went out a while ago. @Electrodynamic [email protected] or 731-439-9629




I did send a 2nd email over the weekend and copied Nick’s email as well. Nick responded quickly (even took the time to send me a reply on a Sunday) and sent my order out on Monday morning. They’re on the way...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for performing this review as these speakers are on my short list for my winter audio swap in my 2019 WRX.


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## rikflaxman (Jul 14, 2019)

Good post!


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## Mobzy (Jun 3, 2019)

Good to find a nice review on TM65 MKIII


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Just ordered my 3rd set Wed and will be ordering two more sets before the months out. I throw these in ALL my cars. lol


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Looks like it still has the silly surround style of the mk1. Mine fell apart after a year. "You gotta use nylon washers", whatever.


Nylon washers AND drywall screws! C'mon, you shoulda known that! 








Just poking a little fun...


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## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

I just installed my mkIIs with the small-headed screws they came with - no problems, the surround is clear.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

My years-old V1's, as well as both sets of v2's are still slamming away. No issues whatsoever. Likewise with my BM mk4, and both mk5's.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Very solid review. Though I'm not surprised to hear it about these drivers.


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## sunniesboy23 (Jan 23, 2018)

Nice Review!


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Electrodynamic said:


> Yes. They are in stock and ready to ship.


Nick, I'm interested in a pair of the TM65 MK III's for a friend's install.

Will these ever be available again? If so, any idea when?

Just need to make a decision on what to use so we can move forward with the install.

Thanks!

PS: sending an email as well.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I , too am interested in a set for another little project


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

bbfoto said:


> Nick, I'm interested in a pair of the TM65 MK III's for a friend's install.
> 
> Will these ever be available again? If so, any idea when?
> 
> ...


Never tried emailing but Nick has been very responsive via Facebook Messenger. Maybe try him there too?

https://www.facebook.com/stereointegrity/


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

DaveG said:


> Never tried emailing but Nick has been very responsive via Facebook Messenger. Maybe try him there too?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/stereointegrity/


This is actually one of Nick’s communication challenges, he gets tons of emails, Facebook messages, forum messages, etc and it is hard to stay on top of all of those communications. Not an excuse but it is definitely challenging.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveG said:


> Never tried emailing but Nick has been very responsive via Facebook Messenger. Maybe try him there too?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/stereointegrity/





dgage said:


> This is actually one of Nick’s communication challenges, he gets tons of emails, Facebook messages, forum messages, etc and it is hard to stay on top of all of those communications. Not an excuse but it is definitely challenging.



Thanks for the response, gentlemen. Unfortunately I'm "one of THOSE guys" that doesn't do Facebook for a variety of reasons. :blush:

If I don't get a response soon I'll try giving a call during normal business hours.

Thanks again.

.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

RRizz said:


> I, too am interested in a set for another little project


Nick got back to me via my Email several days ago. :thumbsup: 

Most of you probably already know this if you follow SI on Facebook, but for those that don't, here is Nick's reply:

"_*Billy,

  We do not have any more TM65's in stock. We have no plans to continue production of those but we are working with along side another designer to bring out a 6.5/tweeter set with a passive crossover. We will keep our Facebook page updated with any/all progress on those. 

-------------- 

Nick

Stereo Integrity*_"


It's a bummer that the TM65-III will no longer be available. Such a great driver for a great price. Hindsight is 20/20...I should've bought some extras sooner. :blush:

I didn't ask about the M3 mids or M25 tweeters. I can only assume that Nick will not be continuing production of those either. But again, just an assumption.

I'm curious to see what the new passive component set is all about, but I'm more interested in individual raw drivers.

For those of us here, I think it seems a bit strange for SI to be coming out with a set that includes passive XOs when relatively inexpensive DSPs are so prevalent. But I guess it must be what the general public/mainstream car audio buyers want? It must be the case, as several manufacturers such as Audiofrog also offer passive X/Os.

Time will tell, but I hope the new component set is the shiznit and successful.

For those that have the TM65-III's, enjoy them you lucky [email protected]@rds!


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> Nick got back to me via my Email several days ago. :thumbsup:
> 
> Most of you probably already know this if you follow SI on Facebook, but for those that don't, here is Nick's reply:
> 
> ...


Looks like it's true. No more TM65. Really curious why?

Yeah, I don't get the passive thing either. Seems like a step back in time, but I guess we'll see. I sure do hate to install drivers knowing no backups are available though. Tempted to sell my set of MkIIIs and go with a set of SBs.


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## finfinder (Apr 15, 2006)

I got the same answer when I asked about the M25s last month...no more M25s


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I talked to Nick from SI recently - I’m not speaking for him, but it appears to be a business decision. He did an analysis of his sales for the last couple years, and he evaluated many of the communications he has received over that time period. 

The analysis showed that a large percentage of the folks who contact them are looking for a solution that isn’t about raw drivers and active processors. He has had guys on the phone - about to give cc info ask if crossovers are included. He explained that the M25’s, M3’s, and TM65’s are raw drivers that are intended to be utilized in an active set up. Well, that isn’t what the customer wanted. 

He seems to be looking in a different direction - focusing on the potential larger customer pool than those on DIYMA, and he has decided to not attempt to support both models - active raw driver model and the 2 way with crossover model. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

That's really weird and I am just thinking out loud here. If he in fact has more people calling him to do a comp set versus raw drivers, wouldn't it be easier to get a passive designed and built versus scraping the tweeter and the Mid. Unless he is thinking some budget line that priced lower than the set but I would do a high end raw driver line and lower end consumer comp set.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

You make good points, and I’m sure those items were factored into his thinking. It is fairly easy for me to say, “why don’t you just do ‘x’, or wouldn’t it make more sense to do ‘y’?”, but he has been in this industry for a while, and he has more information than I do about what he is seeing in the industry. 

Cost may be another factor - it takes a good amount of capitol and the ‘guarantee’ of future revenue to maintain a couple different inventory lines - and that might not be advantageous at the moment along with his home audio ventures. 


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

I am sure it also has to do with finances. It takes a lot of upfront cost to have multiple products sitting on a shelf. He probably has to make a choice of what is going to make him the most money and sit on the shelf the shortest amount of time. 

Now he could potentially do some pre-sale stuff like he has in the past, but that can cause issues as I am sure a bunch of us have seen. I personally don't think the issues that those can cause are worth that effort.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

And the MOQ (minimum order quantity) can get expensive. Think about a speaker that might cost $100 for a nice round number, doesn’t sound so bad until you figure out that many build companies have a MOQ of 200 units and you all of a sudden figure out how expensive it is to carry inventory. And inventory cost is also known as carrying cost and with anything inventory, you want to minimize those costs while having product available to sale. Not easy decisions.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Yeah, it's DEFINITELY not an easy business. And there is a crazy amount of competition coming at you from all sides, and from large corporations that have big marketing and advertising budgets.

Unfortunately, from my experience with these types of product categories and in this segment of the marketplace, it's important to maintain several lines at different quality levels & pricepoints, for a variety of reasons.

A) The High-End Product Line...to show that you are a serious contender and that all of your products are based on a foundation of high-end technology & engineering, and that you can compete with the "big boys". For those that want the best, you have that category covered. (And still at reasonable price points compared to the competition).

B) At least one "point of entry" product line that "gets people in the door" and offers really good performance, but at an accessible price for the masses. Something on the order of, "Our 'Performance' line offers nearly all of our proprietary, trickle-down technology from our "Expert" line, but using soft parts & hardware that allow us to offer an excellent level of performance at substantial savings. The 'Performance' line is our absolute best value for excellent SQ without the 'High-End' price tag!"

C) But you also need to have "B" as a "stepping stone" to "A". And you need to maintain "B" as a supplementary line to "A". For instance, I have the ''Expert" line as my front stage, and the "Performance" line for rear fill, or to cover the rear passengers. Or I have the "Expert" line in my main "fun" vehicle, and the "Performance" line in the family SUV or minivan, etc. "But when money permits, I'll switch everything over to the 'Expert' line". This allows for more potential sales overall.

Look at how Hybrid Audio Technologies and Audiofrog have developed their lineup over time and continue to maintain them. You'll see the same across most brands, and in all of the products they offer.

Obviously, producing and maintaining the multiple lineups requires a huge investment and commitment! But I know of several companies that maintain a "break-even" product that helps to support their "money maker" product(s) just so that "on the books" they can acquire better investment financing and can show and project increased sales numbers. Or vice-versa.

I know that it might not make sense, but if I can show the bank that there is potential for several thousand orders of my "break-even" product line, with future potential for increased profits as economies of scale grow (lower manufacturing cost with increased quantities over time in the future), this looks better for sustained business and income growth compared to coming to the table with just 100 potential orders for my "premier" product.

So the "break-even" product supports the financing to manufacture & produce the "money maker" product line, where otherwise you might not be able to obtain or create the capital to get ANY of your products manufactured.

One thing is for sure...

It takes money to make money. It's rough out there! 

Yes, it seems logical to just produce a Passive Crossover network for the TM65-III/M3/M25 since all of the R&D and tooling for the drivers is already in place. And I would LOVE to see that happen.

But, as Jason said, those still might be at too high of a price point for the potential customers he is targeting. He needs that "point of entry" or general consumer product line first.


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

bertholomey said:


> I talked to Nick from SI recently - I’m not speaking for him, but it appears to be a business decision. He did an analysis of his sales for the last couple years, and he evaluated many of the communications he has received over that time period.
> 
> The analysis showed that a large percentage of the folks who contact them are looking for a solution that isn’t about raw drivers and active processors. He has had guys on the phone - about to give cc info ask if crossovers are included. He explained that the M25’s, M3’s, and TM65’s are raw drivers that are intended to be utilized in an active set up. Well, that isn’t what the customer wanted.
> 
> He seems to be looking in a different direction - focusing on the potential larger customer pool than those on DIYMA, and he has decided to not attempt to support both models - active raw driver model and the 2 way with crossover model.


Correct. 



Jroo said:


> That's really weird and I am just thinking out loud here. If he in fact has more people calling him to do a comp set versus raw drivers, wouldn't it be easier to get a passive designed and built versus scraping the tweeter and the Mid. Unless he is thinking some budget line that priced lower than the set but I would do a high end raw driver line and lower end consumer comp set.


In our growth over the past 2 years regarding component speakers I looked over one key item: that most of my customers want a turn-key component set. DIYMA is great but DIYMA accounts for less than 15% of my total sales these days. I love you guys and enjoy the discussions, tech talk, etc, but where I/we (DIYMA enthusiasts) are in terms of system design is not the same place that a lot of people are in car audio. Meaning us here on DIYMA assume we need a 4 channel amplifier with full crossover abilities per channel, without a DSP, to run a single pair of components actively. Almost everyone else shy's away from that. As Jason pointed out, I can not tell you how many customers have told me "Oh, it doesn't include crossovers and I need two 4 channel amps to run two sets of your component speakers...yeah...I'll call you back" only to never hear from them again. 

We are working with another company to develop a passive set of 6.5's/tweeters/crossovers for under $400 shipped. Said 6.5s will have more midbass than our previous TM65's with a normal amount of applied power with smoother midrange. The 6.5 will use a 2" coil and have 6 mm of Xmax with a slightly higher Qe/Qt than normal to achieve the most midbass performance possible while using choice components to get smoother, more airy, midrange out of an in-door application. The tweeter will be a slightly oversized unit (larger than 25 mm) capable of playing out to/past where most of our ears stop at 16,000/20,000 Hz. Passive network will be small and easy to mount. A complete package. 



jdunk54nl said:


> I am sure it also has to do with finances. It takes a lot of upfront cost to have multiple products sitting on a shelf. He probably has to make a choice of what is going to make him the most money and sit on the shelf the shortest amount of time.
> 
> Now he could potentially do some pre-sale stuff like he has in the past, but that can cause issues as I am sure a bunch of us have seen. I personally don't think the issues that those can cause are worth that effort.


Pre-sales have been good for us in the past but we fully realize who our market is and a fairly expensive ($500+) active component set is not that market. These new 6.5/tweeter component sets will sell considerably quicker to our current market. Our market wants stellar performance with a passive crossover network without without spending $1,000 on the set.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Electrodynamic said:


> We are working with another company to develop a passive set of 6.5's/tweeters/crossovers for under $400 shipped. Said 6.5s will have more midbass than our previous TM65's with a normal amount of applied power with smoother midrange. The 6.5 will use a 2" coil and have 6 mm of Xmax with a slightly higher Qe/Qt than normal to achieve the most midbass performance possible while using choice components to get smoother, more airy, midrange out of an in-door application. The tweeter will be a slightly oversized unit (larger than 25 mm) capable of playing out to/past where most of our ears stop at 16,000/20,000 Hz. Passive network will be small and easy to mount. A complete package.


Sounds great, Nick. Looking forward to it!

Curious if you'd consider selling both the 6.5" and tweeter individually as raw drivers for those that are already running active? Or would that throw a hitch in production & inventory of complete sets?

Thanks for taking the time to post all of the information that you did. Great insight. :thumbsup:


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

bbfoto said:


> Electrodynamic said:
> 
> 
> > We are working with another company to develop a passive set of 6.5's/tweeters/crossovers for under $400 shipped. Said 6.5s will have more midbass than our previous TM65's with a normal amount of applied power with smoother midrange. The 6.5 will use a 2" coil and have 6 mm of Xmax with a slightly higher Qe/Qt than normal to achieve the most midbass performance possible while using choice components to get smoother, more airy, midrange out of an in-door application. The tweeter will be a slightly oversized unit (larger than 25 mm) capable of playing out to/past where most of our ears stop at 16,000/20,000 Hz. Passive network will be small and easy to mount. A complete package.
> ...


Yes sir. I forgot to mention that, but yes the raw components will be available without the crossovers.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Electrodynamic said:


> Yes sir. I forgot to mention that, but yes the raw components will be available without the crossovers.


what kind of ETA are you shooting for on the comps and raw drivers


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## terryna (Mar 15, 2018)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Im talking about the surround being attached to the metal part where you put screws. So it can twist the surround off.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


NIce


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