# At last! The Biketronics BT4180 amp review you've all been waiting for!



## 2010hummerguy

At last, the Biketronics BT4180 review!!! This has been months in the making; thankfully my day job has slowed down enough due to the holidays that I can finally write this without distraction. I’ve also attempted this review a few different times and scrapped each draft. It is difficult to write a review on amps given how polarizing amp SQ is. With that, I only have two guidelines for this thread:

1.)	I am not here to convince you that amps sound different. No one ever wins these arguments, we might as well start talking about religion or sports team loyalty. Literally no one has ever changed anyone's mind regarding any of these topics by arguing online and I am not about to attempt this impossible task today.

2.)	Please do not argue about our ability to or lack thereof to hear a difference between amps. If you believe we can hear a difference, awesome. If you do not, guess what, I have an area in this review for you as well. If you want to argue this topic, please see the Higher End Amp SQ Myth thread here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...stry-dogma/141216-higher-end-amp-sq-myth.html

Now that we’ve performed that bit of housekeeping, let me first introduce you to the company known as Biketronics:

Years ago my mom told me that she and my father had some friends who built and sold parts for Harley Davidsons in my hometown of Moscow, ID. I’m not a huge fan of motorcycles and especially Harleys so this piece of information went in one ear and out the other. Fast forward to the summer of 2012, I was back in Idaho for a friend’s wedding when another one of my closest friends from high school called me up saying he had the field trip of a lifetime for me. He said it was a small electronics manufacturer and proceeded to tell me that they were building some really cool niche market audio equipment. Audio field trip? Don’t have to tell me twice about such an offer. I was extremely excited, especially given the escape from wedding preparations.

The next day we ventured down to the end of a large metal commercial building. It looked like where you see startup body shops or small town gymnastics studios; the affordable commercial mini mall. We went inside and were greeted by their purchasing director who gave me a personal tour of the place. It was BUSTLING with activity, people working on PCBs, taking orders over the phone, packing up shipments for UPS, etc. They were obviously very busy and outgrowing their space. 

The director showed me all sorts of cool stuff. Woofers, tweeters, power supplies, amplifiers, even funny stories about a speaker “torture chamber” that he built to simulate intense heat/cold/humidity. That was an interesting discussion as I learned that the most resilient speakers he had ever tested were the HAT Imagines which took extreme head/cold/humidity with ease for a 24 hour period as it played at maximum output and did not skip a beat. Meanwhile he had destroyed the likes of Focal, Rockford Fosgate, and many other speakers with this same testing as well as many micro amps from other manufacturers (Rockford’s “boosted rail” amps were a dirty word there given how quickly they go into limp mode even with easy loads). This was my first real exposure to HAT which would later lead to me installing Unity components in my wife’s Jeep Grand Cherokee. His dedication to testing and finding the best products for his end customers was fascinating.

At this point in 2012 I had avoided the car audio world since departing it in 2004 to focus my time and money on finishing school and subsequently starting my career in the Seattle area. However, I had just recently re-entered the DIY home audio hobby about 6 months prior and I was in the process of evolving my active 2 channel speaker system loosely based on the Linkwitz Orions. I was using a 6-channel Rotel RB-976 for my amplification but I had been learning a lot about a company known as Hypex based in the Netherlands, mostly from extensive reading on Class D - diyAudio and Hypex Owners Circle. I was extremely excited to recognize Hypex modules on the purchasing director’s workbench. Even some modules I did not recognize, known as the UcD100OEM which they used in an older model of their amp. He began to tell me about these amazing little amps and how they are nearly 100% efficient, highly tolerant to volatile physical/electrical conditions, incredibly good noise rejection, tiny footprint, etc. I was considering building my own Hypex amp for home use but it had never occurred to me to use them in a car, though it made perfect sense.

Suddenly it occurred to me that these were my parents’ friends! Except they didn’t build just normal parts for Harleys, they were building audiophile grade packages for these bikes. First, I had no idea that there was such a market for high end audio gear. And second, I was extremely impressed with how much they did in house. They build the 12v power supplies, input stages and cases all there in the same facility before installing the Hypex amp modules for final shipping. What a small world it is!

Over the last ten years my mother’s health has been quite a roller coaster. She’s undergone numerous surgeries, emergency room visits and even a week in ICU with 50/50 odds of living. Like many mothers, she has a very stubborn side and sometimes needs a little coaxing to seek out the right medical assistance. Additionally, I am the only family member that she typically listens to and so I decided to move back to the Idaho area to help guide her on a path of recovery for her conditions. This meant I was also going to be local to Biketronics! Not a bad side benefit and fast forward to today, my mother’s health is very good now 

During the 10 months that we lived in the area I came to know the owners very well. They had since taken over a retired Honda dealership which was ~20x larger than their old space, though last I visited only a few months ago in August, they appeared on track to outgrow that space as well! At the time, when my schedule permitted I would also attend a Tuesday evening session they would hold at their headquarters for anyone who wanted to come talk tech and use any of the tooling there to streamline prototyping of their own projects. An especially priceless offering for the many nearby engineering students at the University of Idaho and Washington State University. In fact, this open-door facility is formally known as their “Fab-Lab”, first announced here in 2010: BIKETRONICS OWNER DREAMS OF A FAB LAB IN MOSCOW. - States News Service | HighBeam Research
And most recently for winning an award in June of this year, reported here: Palouse Knowledge Corridor | Palouse Knowledge Corridor award highlights local entrepreneurs 

In June of 2013 we finally moved back home to the Seattle area after seeing my mother through to good health. We were sad to move away from Biketronics; my wife was managing their logistics department and I was visiting on a regular basis, tinkering with amps with the owner and eating as much Mexican food as possible, prepared by one of their employees, Maria, who is from Mexico. To this day, Maria’s homemade hot sauce is still the best I have ever had.

After our return to Seattle we remained in close contact with the owners. I was having issues fitting amps in my truck, there is literally no space in these Hummers for anything, it is pretty ridiculous. The factory amp location is only 10”x10” so I did not have much space to work with. It finally occurred to me that I should try a Biketronics BT4180. At only 5”x7” I could even fit two of them. Here’s my current BT4180 installed:










Mike Meehan, the owner, sent me a BT4180 to test and it only took 15 minutes to install thanks to its small size and simple spring terminals. Only a fine-tipped object is required for installation to depress each spring terminal while fitting each wire. Super simple and RCAs attach with ease as well.

Each BT4180 is built with four UcD180OEM modules, an input stage which converts the single ended inputs to differential for the UcD modules and then their own homegrown power supply which converts 12v to the high rail voltage required by the UcD modules. Here’s the inside of my BT4180 which shows how well these utilize their diminutive cases. Notice the four UcD modules on the left, custom power supply on the right, input stage board on top and then two cooling fans on the far right (which I have never heard turn on, even on 4-5 hour drives at high volume):










For those of you who believe all amps sound the same, here are the objective benefits of this amp:

1.)	Zero noise, even at high volume. Literally the lowest noise floor I have ever worked with in an automotive environment.

2.)	Huge power output. Even at very high volumes driving my Dynaudio Esotar 650 mids and CSS LD25X tweeters, I have never been able to send the amp into clipping. With 180wpc [email protected], this amp definitely meets or beats output of the top 20 percentile of amps on the market. I haven’t seen an amp move my Esotars as much as this does. Tons of midbass kick.

3.)	Small, smaller than the smallest USPS flat rate box. You could probably fit 3 of these under most seats. You could even fit one of these in some dashboards, one could easily fit behind my P99 in my truck.

4.)	Easy to set up with the spring terminals. No gains to worry about. The Hypex modules can take a huge signal without clipping yet need a very small signal to reach full power output. I have no idea how they do this but it just works…kind of nice for people who do not want to worry about calibrating gains. It is a great match for my P99 which was able to gain down its own outputs during the auto-calibration process, further lowering the noise floor.

5.)	Efficient, these are made to create full power on a Harley charging system. You can run a few of these in a typical car without needing to upgrade your electrical. Great for high end installs where the stock electrical system must be utilized (expensive/exotic cars, boats, etc.).

6.)	Lifetime warranty…wow!

My subjective listening impressions:

1.)	Crystal clear sound at all volumes. Even at very low volume, music sounds clearer than any amp I’ve had in here before. I can make out lyrics even when I turn it down. Something that wasn’t ever quite possible with other amps I’ve had in this truck. Could be a function of the higher power output but basically it translates to better perceived clarity.

2.)	Big sound. Other amps I have used sounded a bit more narrow or hollow. The BT4180 creates a sound stage that feels large and enveloping.

3.)	More dynamic…again, probably thanks to the higher power capability.

4.)	Neutral sound…I’ve never been a huge fan of overly warm amps because of the amount of distortion that seems to be added in the midrange at higher volumes. The BT4180 lets you just crank it louder and louder while remaining absolutely crystal clear. No biases at any frequencies and no perceived distortion. Very transparent to the music.

I’m hoping to have a response plot available to post soon after the team at BT throws one of these on their Audio Precision analyzer, though I know prior versions have tested ruler flat from 12hz-20khz+. Yes, flat down to 12hz at full power, no smoothing. Meaning one of these could be used to drive subwoofers with ease. Which I am planning next for a pair of SI BM MKIV 12’s under my back seat, driven by a BT2180 (2 channel version of the BT4180). I am planning a similar setup in a Mustang Cobra convertible this spring to keep equipment weight/size to a minimum for improved performance without sacrificing sound. In fact, I really have no reason why I would use any other amp from now on. They’re certainly not the cheapest amp around but being made in the USA and the lifetime warranty are two great features that help justify the investment.

Bottom line, even from a purely objective perspective these are the best amps I have ever used. I recommend them for anyone with the right budget available. Though Biketronics is very well known in the motorcycle market, they are relatively unknown in the car audio market. To help them get the word out, I am organizing a group buy so please PM me if you are interested in an amp (or two or three). I even have two extra BT4180 amps in case anyone can’t wait for the group buy (originally purchased for my wife’s Jeep but we are returning it to stock before selling it later this year to upgrade to a full size SUV). Both brand new sealed in box with full warranties.

There are a few more of these amps in the possession of some prominent members here who will likely chime in with their listening/ownership impressions as well. 

Thanks for reading!

EDIT: I TOTALLY forgot to mention that these have a VERY steep filter at 45hz which drastically reduces the amount of warrantied speakers that Biketronics has to deal with. I'm working with the owner to get these removed from a BT2180 for subwoofer usage, stay tuned


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## ImK'ed

They sound too good to be true. Amazing how much tech has changed and you can have this much power and quality in a package so small HATS OFF TO BIKETRONICS!!


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## edouble101

Interesting how so much power is made in such a tiny space. It would be cool to see a diagram showing the differences in topology from this amp to a "normal" class D or AB amp. I am thinking that you might not get this small size without giving up something.


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## Audiophilefred

Dam nice review , got me thinking now


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## 2010hummerguy

edouble101 said:


> Interesting how so much power is made in such a tiny space. It would be cool to see a diagram showing the differences in topology from this amp to a "normal" class D or AB amp. I am thinking that you might not get this small size without giving up something.


It is class D, nothing really new there except for how Hypex has implemented the design, especially in the Class A front end which I think helps make it a more "musical" sounding amp than grittier Class D which we tend to think about, especially when Class D first hit the consumer market. These on the other hand are about as refined as I have ever heard. They don't need to give up anything because Class D is inherently small to begin with. It is the power supply that requires the size due to capacitance and transformer footprint. If you want I can post Hypex's 100+ slide presentation on how the UcD design works  Really the only tradeoff is power output. The bigger the footprint, the more power these make. Here's 2kwrms the size of your hand:

https://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=3538

I am actually building two Hypex home amps right now, a 6 channel which will either power an active pair of speakers or the surround channels for Dolby Atmos when Anthem releases their new receivers in 2016. Just needs the right power supply, probably a switching type from ConnexElectronics. Also a 2 channel which uses a pair of UcD180ST modules and a toroidal power supply which needs to be rewired (previous owner did not have the best soldering skills). That one will probably drive my Accuton mids in my high end active speaker setup I'm building for the ultimate mancave system 

Eventually I would love to build an ultimate home HT amp with all Hypex modules, either UcD700HXG or NCore 400 modules. But this would be astronomically expensive compared to the amp I use now, my big Vincent SAV-P200 which cost me about as much as a naked pair of NCores for six channels of very high performance amplification. So in the interest of $$$ it is not in the cards right now.

The cool thing about the BT amps is that they barely cost more than the raw parts. Add in USA assembly and quality control and you can't really build them yourself for much less than MSRP. You don't see that every day!


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## deeppinkdiver

Great write up.. Glad to hear mom is doing better to btw!

I absolutely plan on trying these amps on a project this summer, thanks for the insight on what they have to offer.


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## etroze

How is heat build up with these little guys? I am really interested in a couple of these but they would be hidden with not a ton of air flow so heat is a little concerning.


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## BlackHHR

These little guys are usually installed in saddle bags. Tons of vibrations from these bikes with limited ventilation and moisture. 
They have done testing on the speakers in some very harsh environments. One would only think that the same environment that these speakers are exposed to are the same as these amps in real world use.
Very solid product for a demanding clientele.


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## etroze

Very true and now I will probably be in for a pair when the group buy happens.


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## ImK'ed

They do a mono?


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## BlackHHR

ImK'ed said:


> They do a mono?


I do not think so. It is 2 x 180 and 4 x 180.


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## etroze

Is there a bridged power rating, couldn't find it on their site?


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## sierrarider

Very interesting product. Subscribed


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## BlackHHR

etroze said:


> Is there a bridged power rating, couldn't find it on their site?


I do not have that answer. Typically in the application it is a pair of 6 x 9`s in the rear saddle bags and comps in the front faring, standard 4 channel. Maybe the O.P. could provide that information.


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## etroze

Thanks for the info, hopefully he will chime back in.


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## Guest

I've been playing with one of the BT4180 amplifiers for a few weeks... I do NOT feel heat will be any issue... I've pushed it pretty hard and never got more than marginally warm...


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## thehatedguy

That lack of gain control could be an issue for some folks. And they may not be bridgeable if there is no way to invert a channel.


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## 2010hummerguy

etroze said:


> How is heat build up with these little guys? I am really interested in a couple of these but they would be hidden with not a ton of air flow so heat is a little concerning.


Like SQ_TSX said they run very cool. And they have two built-in fans in case things do heat up but mine has never had a heat issue, even when driven hard in 95 degree conditions.



ImK'ed said:


> They do a mono?


Not at this time but definitely possible by swapping modules for a larger module. We'll probably see this possibility in a few months.



etroze said:


> Is there a bridged power rating, couldn't find it on their site?


They do not bridge out of the box but the Hypex modules can be bridged very easily. Again, this will probably be built-in functionality at some point.



thehatedguy said:


> That lack of gain control could be an issue for some folks. And they may not be bridgeable if there is no way to invert a channel.


Of all the people I have spoken to, no one has had gain issues with these even when used with very high voltage preamp signals. Again, no idea how BT did it with their input section but somehow it works.


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## Carlton8000

These look like quite a bargain, built on a solid and proven platform. Heavily considering a pair for my next 2010 VW CC build.


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## Guest

On the input gain question.... best I can tell.... The input section is DSP controlled... continually adjusting the voltage, within reason, to match the power supply needs...

Buy I'm just guessing since I'm not an EE....


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## claydo

Tuned in for more info.......gonna be amp time real soon, group buy interests me.......especially if there is plans for bridging capabilities for midbass, and a mono for sub action!


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## thehatedguy

I did see one of the 2 channels had the DSP input section, maybe they will be doing or are doing it on the 4 channel?

Someone try it with some horns mated to some low sensitivity mids to test it out...110 dB mated to 84 dB.


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## Guest

I'm pretty sure the input on the BT4180 is DSP controlled... I've opened the amplifier up to inspect the construction but haven't gone to the point of disassembling it....

I'm not so sure that test would prove much... Theoretically, the amplifier would produce 180 watts into the HLCD's and into the midbass'.... the horns would still be much louder than the midbass'


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## Scott Buwalda

Architect7 said:


> The director showed me all sorts of cool stuff. Woofers, tweeters, power supplies, amplifiers, even funny stories about a speaker “torture chamber” that he built to simulate intense heat/cold/humidity. That was an interesting discussion as I learned that the most resilient speakers he had ever tested were the HAT Imagines which took extreme head/cold/humidity with ease for a 24 hour period as it played at maximum output and did not skip a beat. Meanwhile he had destroyed the likes of Focal, Rockford Fosgate, and many other speakers with this same testing as well as many micro amps from other manufacturers (Rockford’s “boosted rail” amps were a dirty word there given how quickly they go into limp mode even with easy loads). This was my first real exposure to HAT which would later lead to me installing Unity components in my wife’s Jeep Grand Cherokee. His dedication to testing and finding the best products for his end customers was fascinating.


Thank you for noting this in your review. 

Scott


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## thehatedguy

You need some way of level matching, as it all probably could not be done in the processor.



SQ_TSX said:


> I'm pretty sure the input on the BT4180 is DSP controlled... I've opened the amplifier up to inspect the construction but haven't gone to the point of disassembling it....
> 
> I'm not so sure that test would prove much... Theoretically, the amplifier would produce 180 watts into the HLCD's and into the midbass'.... the horns would still be much louder than the midbass'


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## Guest

thehatedguy speaks the truth....


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## 2010hummerguy

Wish I was better equipped to do the necessary testing to figure out the intput level limitations, etc. of these...but they seem to work really well with even just 1v max voltage. I'm IM'ing with one of the engineers over there right now to see if they have any more data that might help us figure it out 

These guys have a 100% satisfaction guaranteed policy so if someone were to buy one of these and find it doesn't work well with their current source, you can send it back for full refund. These guys really take great care of their customers.



Scott Buwalda said:


> Thank you for noting this in your review.
> 
> Scott


You're welcome Scott! I was blown away with what they were putting Imagines through there, amazing what you've done with those. The team there speaks very highly of you, cool that it is such a small world


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just a couple of questions.

2 ohm stable, what's the output at 2 ohms?

I plan on using the TM65's and a single BM MKIV.


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## 2010hummerguy

I believe power doubles at 2 ohm which is exactly why I intend to run a pair of BM MKIV subs off of a 2180. They'll go stable to 1 ohm but power decreases due to design.

Nice planning, I am actually going to run a pair of TM65 off of a 4180 in a Mustang Cobra.


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## fredridge

did I miss the price on these?


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## 2010hummerguy

fredridge said:


> did I miss the price on these?


They're $585 from Biketronics but I am working on a group buy deal


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## aznlunatic

Also interested in the group buy for either the 4180, 2180 or both. Great review, Keep us updated


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## Treesive

I pulled the trigger on one of these a few weeks back. Reading all of this makes me even more mad that I have been to busy to get my new install in motion. I will note also about the great customer service I have been shown so far. It has been great. The signatures on the back of the amp of everyone who worked on your amp is an awesome touch. Gives you the feeling that they stand by their work and want their name to be a part of it. All the little things so far have been above and beyond. Now the only thing left is to see if the dyn's like it.


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## deeppinkdiver

Could you share a couple more photo's of the amplifiers.. Paticularly the commection sections. Curious what exactly to expect.

Thanks.


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## 2010hummerguy

Yes sir! I'll try to get something uploaded today.

Edit: Here you go!


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## 2010hummerguy

For those of you looking for reading material, here is the datasheet Hypex has published for the UcD180OEM module:

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/ClassD/UcD180OEMdatasheetnewstyle.pdf

I'm talking with BT today about BT2180 modules and I will likely get one in my hands next week w/o the filters installed for sub duty. Stay tuned!


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## deeppinkdiver

[/QUOTE]

This looks very neatly sorted any simple! Im pleasantly surprised!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Out of curiosity, what gauge wires for everything, power, speakers etc.


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## 2010hummerguy

Pretty small...10-12ga. for power/ground and 18-22ga. for everything else. My power/ground leads are very short.

Edit: Scratch that, 14ga. for power/ground and 18ga. for everything else.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hmm, I wonder if that will work for the sub. Sub will be up front, amp in the very back of the trunk. Not worried about power, but might need to run a short run of 18 gauge to a block and then up the size to the front of the car.


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## Treesive

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hmm, I wonder if that will work for the sub. Sub will be up front, amp in the very back of the trunk. Not worried about power, but might need to run a short run of 18 gauge to a block and then up the size to the front of the car.


This amp is super small and since it has no jobs that you have to get to for tweaking you could probably how it under the dash or seat pretty easily if you don't want to have to deal with that wiring operation


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## 2010hummerguy

deeppinkdiver said:


> This looks very neatly sorted any simple! Im pleasantly surprised!


For sure, easiest amp I've ever installed. Even easier than hooking up a home receiver.

I'm cranking Alt-J Hunger of the Pines right now while waiting to meet up with a buyer for some car parts I'm selling, my system sounds so freaking good. Drum hits are intense but detailed. I just can't ever get this thing to strain. Can't wait to get my Esotar 110 tweeters hooked up to this thing.


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## deeppinkdiver

Seems like it would be difficult to output the power #s these have with such small power wiring feeding them.. I forget the math on current rate but off the top of my head,,, I guess ill have to see it to believe it. Maybe I should have you send me one of these to play with. Im very curious..


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## 2010hummerguy

Yeah I did the math when I installed mine and I think I was okay as long as my 14ga. feed was less than a foot from the distro. But I'll look again tonight.


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## Treesive

Haha I have been working on getting mine wired up today. It looks so odd to have my 3 runs of 0 Guage being split off into a 200 amp circuit breaker and a 30 amp circuit breaker for this amp.


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## Babs

Scott Buwalda said:


> Thank you for noting this in your review.
> 
> Scott


i'll be letting all my Cross Country riding buddies know about HAT environment resilience as well.. Last Summer at the Helen Southeast Victory Rally, I saw more Focal/Arc setups in Victory fairings than anything, simply because it's the bike dealer go-to for that stuff, and it appears Focal has really pushed into the powersport market. 

No fairing on my Hard-Ball. Darn it.  Oh well, the glorious exhaust is my road-tunes.

Scott, That might be a good spot for you to make a fun weekend trip and sell that particular aspect of your drivers to some biker folk. Heck I think they even have some folks doing installs right under tents there on fairing Vic's. One name for you on busting into Victory Motorcycle market.. Jon Petrich (Witchdoctors). Biggest aftermarket vendor in the Vic market. Period.


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## Huckleberry Sound

Architect7 said:


> For those of you looking for reading material, here is the datasheet Hypex has published for the UcD180OEM module:
> 
> http://www.audiodesignguide.com/ClassD/UcD180OEMdatasheetnewstyle.pdf
> 
> I'm talking with BT today about BT2180 modules and I will likely get one in my hands next week w/o the filters installed for sub duty. Stay tuned!


Did he charge you extra for removing the filters so that you could use it for sub duty? Or is it set to full range output already?


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## 2010hummerguy

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Did he charge you extra for removing the filters so that you could use it for sub duty? Or is it set to full range output already?


No extra charge, my buddy there who handles QA is just going to pull them prior to shipping out to me. Then if it works well which I am sure it will they will try to offer that option from the beginning.

Subs are not super common on bikes which explains the lack of a sub amp...until now 



Babs said:


> i'll be letting all my Cross Country riding buddies know about HAT environment resilience as well.. Last Summer at the Helen Southeast Victory Rally, I saw more Focal/Arc setups in Victory fairings than anything, simply because it's the bike dealer go-to for that stuff, and it appears Focal has really pushed into the powersport market.
> 
> No fairing on my Hard-Ball. Darn it.  Oh well, the glorious exhaust is my road-tunes.
> 
> Scott, That might be a good spot for you to make a fun weekend trip and sell that particular aspect of your drivers to some biker folk. Heck I think they even have some folks doing installs right under tents there on fairing Vic's. One name for you on busting into Victory Motorcycle market.. Jon Petrich (Witchdoctors). Biggest aftermarket vendor in the Vic market. Period.


Funny you mention Focal, [email protected] was melting all of their stuff in his torture chamber, Polyglass up through K2. On top of having the worst tweeters I have ever heard, you couldn't pay me enough to run anything from them in my car...MAYBE Utopia but not at retail prices LOL. Then put them in extreme heat/humidity and all bets are off. Really cool findings when you have the right tools and don't care if the stuff breaks. Bill has my dream job


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## Treesive

I don't like focal tweeters either. Way to harsh. Remind me of infinity


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## Babs

Treesive said:


> I don't like focal tweeters either. Way to harsh. Remind me of infinity


In bike fairings, reminded me of MB Quart.


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## 1fishman

Architect7 said:


> No extra charge, my buddy there who handles QA is just going to pull them prior to shipping out to me. Then if it works well which I am sure it will they will try to offer that option from the beginning.
> 
> Subs are not super common on bikes which explains the lack of a sub amp...until now
> *


Very good review, thanks for your efforts. 

Are they going to bridge it for you also. IIRC you have to Bridge it internally ; / 
What wattage will you end up with? Any word on a 6 channel?


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## 2010hummerguy

Yes, bridging must be done internally but easy to do. Though I am not sure there is much benefit, sounds like they are amperage limited and operating a single unit at 2ohm would yield better results than bridging two units at 2ohms (or even bridged at 4ohms):

bridging ucd amps - diyAudio

For more power, a user would be better off swapping to UcD400OEM or UcD700OEM modules. This would require a custom Frankenstein amp and the current power supplies have not been tested to support this but in theory a BT4180 PSU would support a pair of UcD400OEM modules or a single UcD700OEM module.


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## bbfoto

Interested if a group buy happens. Thanks for the review.


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## 2010hummerguy

Babs said:


> In bike fairings, reminded me of MB Quart.


When people say "oh I miss old school MB Quart" I have no idea why. I thought it all sounded like garbage but mostly because of the razor blade metal tweeters. So harsh!!!


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## Babs

I'd love to know how this little biketronics amp compares to something like a PDX or JL XD or HD. It really does appear to be quite revolutionary in small footprint amps.


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## crxsir121

I picked up one of these BT amps last month when they had a Christmas sale. Holy Balls!!! This thing is Dynamic and gets loud and clear. Zero distortion and great woofer control!!! Reminds me of my old Arc Audio 4150cxlr. I'm going to be ordering 2 more for my 3 way active front stage. I'm amazed at the size of this amp. Barely bigger than my iPhone. Will fit almost anywhere. I knew these were something special after hearing the Hypex Ncores in a demo and was blown away. Never liked the sound of Class D amps of the past. Technology has come a long way. If I had to give cons, it would be the fans are a bit noisy. Not a problem for me since mine will be mounted in the trunk and not be heard or seen. The other was I wish I bought more than one when they were discounted. The price is back up...


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I know these are meant for motorcycle use. Can these be mounted outside of the car or truck?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

crxsir121 said:


> I picked up one of these BT amps last month when they had a Christmas sale. Holy Balls!!! This thing is Dynamic and gets loud and clear. Zero distortion and great woofer control!!! Reminds me of my old Arc Audio 4150cxlr. I'm going to be ordering 2 more for my 3 way active front stage. I'm amazed at the size of this amp. Barely bigger than my iPhone. Will fit almost anywhere. I knew these were something special after hearing the Hypex Ncores in a demo and was blown away. Never liked the sound of Class D amps of the past. Technology has come a long way. If I had to give cons, it would be the fans are a bit noisy. Not a problem for me since mine will be mounted in the trunk and not be heard or seen. The other was I wish I bought more than one when they were discounted. The price is back up...


PM sent, I have a surplus of four right now, all brand new in box with lifetime warranty.



Huckleberry Sound said:


> I know these are meant for motorcycle use. Can these be mounted outside of the car or truck?


Given that they tend to be so exposed on motorcycles, possibly? My fear would be shorts at the terminals, though if install correctly and with the terminals facing down, that might be a non-issue. Thinking of installing on a Caterham Super7 or Ariel Atom?


----------



## Babs

I didn't realize they had fans. Depending on install location of in trunk that's kind of a plus.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Yeah though I've never heard mine kick on even in high heat on long trips. But in a hot trunk it is a huge benefit.


----------



## crxsir121

Architect7 said:


> Yeah though I've never heard mine kick on even in high heat on long trips. But in a hot trunk it is a huge benefit.



Your fans don't kick on at all? Mine turn on as soon as I power it up. Wonder if its due to the smaller size...


----------



## RocketBoots

How, exactly, will you use the 4180 or 2180 to power the SI BM? Since these don't bridge, and even if power doubles at 2-ohm, it's still 360w, which, despite what Nick says, I think is a little underpowered.

I have a BM MKIV, and would love to use these amps. I saw BT a while ago, but always wondered how they sounded for SQ. IME, bikes generally want things LOUD, but not necessarily detailed or nuanced, since you can't hear nuances anyway.

Also, do you know if the 4180 could bridge two channels internally for 3-way operation? (the dream)

Then there's the whole too good to be true thing...


----------



## TrickyRicky

The only thing I can say is how the hell are you suppose to hear the SQ of these amps over a LOUD ASS HARLEY!!???


----------



## RocketBoots

TrickyRicky said:


> The only thing I can say is how the hell are you suppose to hear the SQ of these amps over a LOUD ASS HARLEY!!???


:beerchug:

My thoughts exactly!


----------



## TrickyRicky

RocketBoots said:


> :beerchug:
> 
> My thoughts exactly!


Not to mention all the road noise...the road noise on motorcycles must be like 10x higher than in most vehicles

I thought they made headphones for motorcyclists...


----------



## thehatedguy

No gain controls and no bridging are strikes against them for me.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

RocketBoots said:


> How, exactly, will you use the 4180 or 2180 to power the SI BM? Since these don't bridge, and even if power doubles at 2-ohm, it's still 360w, which, despite what Nick says, I think is a little underpowered.
> 
> I have a BM MKIV, and would love to use these amps. I saw BT a while ago, but always wondered how they sounded for SQ. IME, bikes generally want things LOUD, but not necessarily detailed or nuanced, since you can't hear nuances anyway.
> 
> Also, do you know if the 4180 could bridge two channels internally for 3-way operation? (the dream)
> 
> Then there's the whole too good to be true thing...


Per my post above, bridging is possible but not very beneficial. They're better off using a higher powered module like two UCD400's or one UCD700 on a 4180 PSU:



Architect7 said:


> Yes, bridging must be done internally but easy to do. Though I am not sure there is much benefit, sounds like they are amperage limited and operating a single unit at 2ohm would yield better results than bridging two units at 2ohms (or even bridged at 4ohms):
> 
> bridging ucd amps - diyAudio
> 
> For more power, a user would be better off swapping to UcD400OEM or UcD700OEM modules. This would require a custom Frankenstein amp and the current power supplies have not been tested to support this but in theory a BT4180 PSU would support a pair of UcD400OEM modules or a single UcD700OEM module.





thehatedguy said:


> No gain controls and no bridging are strikes against them for me.


The lack of gains hasn't been an issue for anyone I know who has used them, I think it is definitely worth trying. Hopefully we'll see larger module versions this year for people who need more power, especially for big midbass drivers and subs.

Regarding SQ on a Harley, those guys are nuts...though being able to play clearly over the noise does present a challenge to most amps/speakers and these are capable of sounding clear even at full output. But yeah, I am definitely baffled by the Harley crowd 



TrickyRicky said:


> Not to mention all the road noise...the road noise on motorcycles must be like 10x higher than in most vehicles
> 
> I thought they made headphones for motorcyclists...


Almost all big Harleys come with a full stereo from the factory. I had no idea either until just a few years ago.


----------



## mosconiac

I know ALL ABOUT those harley audio systems, I hear them going by the house all the time in the summer. Lynyrd Skynyrd, Nazareth, & Foghat never sounded so clear...LOL


----------



## Babs

TrickyRicky said:


> The only thing I can say is how the hell are you suppose to hear the SQ of these amps over a LOUD ASS HARLEY!!???


You mean you couldn't hear all the best subtle nuances on a bike like this going down the road with wind whipping at 80mph? LOL!!!  

Which is why 'this' is my road tunes when I'm two wheeling it:


----------



## RocketBoots

Architect7 said:


> The lack of gains hasn't been an issue for anyone I know who has used them, I think it is definitely worth trying. Hopefully we'll see larger module versions this year for people who need more power, especially for big midbass drivers and subs.
> 
> But yeah, I am definitely baffled by the Harley crowd
> 
> Almost all big Harleys come with a full stereo from the factory. I had no idea either until just a few years ago.


So will you wire you SI BMMKIV one each channel with a 2180? And would this equate to 360w to the sub, since it's a DVC?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

RocketBoots said:


> So will you wire you SI BMMKIV one each channel with a 2180? And would this equate to 360w to the sub, since it's a DVC?


Yes sir, you are exactly correct


----------



## cajunner

a 12" sub needs at least 400 watts.

haha...


----------



## RocketBoots

I'd be interested in a group buy if they can provide units without the 45 Hz filter.


----------



## Scott Buwalda

Babs said:


> Last Summer at the Helen Southeast Victory Rally


Is that Helen GA? If so, I live 45 minutes away and go up there with my family to relax at least 6X/year.


----------



## Babs

Scott Buwalda said:


> Is that Helen GA? If so, I live 45 minutes away and go up there with my family to relax at least 6X/year.



One and the same. I'll send you the Southeast Vic Rally info if I can find it shortly. Biggest Victory rally in the region. Fun times. The best Venders in the business are there. I had my cams and performance work done right there then dyno tuned by one of the best in the business. Three of the four best performance guru's in the world were there. I'd think a guy could really busy into the market with audio goodies for the gazillion Cross Country and Vision riders there who like their tunes. I'd be glad to introduce you to the guys who run the best aftermarket companies who'll certainly be there. Great folks. I'll check Facebook now for the info. Sadly my scoot is a Hard-Ball. No fairing to install audio.

http://victoryrally.com/
https://www.facebook.com/VictoryRally


----------



## 2010hummerguy

I spoke to aznlunatic this evening, he installed a BT4180 in his car on Friday night. He told me he was up til 3am listening to music so I take that as a good sign . He did attempt to run front passive comps with two channels and a pair of SI BM MKIV subs with the other two channels. He said it sounded great even with the fixed high pass filter in place but the input DSP would not let him use the HU to gain up the sub channels. This makes sense since the input DSP is designed to match input voltage to the Hypex module's optimal range, though I know small db increments seem to work (how I tuned my active front stage, left tweeter/mid are slightly attenuated due to closer proximity). So I am going to speak with the designer this week to figure out the limitations of the input stage DSP. I am 99% sure the DSP could be bypassed for independent use of the four channels. Or two 2180 input stages used in a 4180...or use two 2180's. Again, if you plan to use a 4180 out of th box for an active front stage, you should be fine. But splitting a 4180 between subs and upper range drivers may pose an issue. More details to come!


----------



## aznlunatic

I would like to first off thank Architect7 for letting me test this amp for the next few days. He was local to me, so I figured I'd ask to see what this amp is all about. I'm not here to thread jack, I'm here to provide more info and how this amp performed in my type of application for those that are curious about this new type of amp and my first impressions. As Architect7 already mentioned I stayed up until around 3am getting my first impression of this amp and this is after getting off a 13 hour work day. 

So a little about my setup, before installing the BT4180 I was running an Audison LRx 5.1k running my 6.5in Hybrid Audio Clarus components active and my two SI BM MKIV's. I decided with this BT4180 I would go a different direction and go back to a passive setup with the Hybrids since this amp gives out 180 watts from each channel and would be more than enough power to get my Hybrids moving and I would go ahead and hook up my two SI BM MKIV's to the rear channels. First impression after turning this amp on the first time and playing some music through it is that its very clean power, no noise at all when the volume is down, I'm not quite sure how to explain it but I was able to make out all the lyrics at very low volumes and when cranked up to see what the amp has, it surprised me. With the 180watts it got my mids moving pretty good and the clarity over all is as good if not better than my audison. 

Now as Architect7 mentioned I did have issues not being able to turn up the volume on the sub stage that was running off the rear channels of the amp because of the auto gain feature inside the amp. I run a pioneer 80prs and when I would adjust the sub volume from 0 to +6 the volume of the subs would stay the same due to the auto gain feature inside the amp keeping the volume at a preset level no matter how low or high the input voltage. Architect7 has told me he will be contacting the designer to get more information about this feature and whether its something that us consumers can disable or change to were we can manually set the gain. 

In a day or so I will be doing some more testing with this amp, I will go back to a active setup and run just the highs and mids off the BT4180 and have my audison sub channel run the two SI BM MKIV's and I will report back with my results. To wrap this long review up, I'm impressed with what this amp delivers, its impressive for such a small form factor and not to forget it sounds great.


----------



## Babs

aznlunatic said:


> With the 180watts it got my mids moving pretty good and the clarity over all is as good if not better than my audison.


 Whoah I didn't expect that!! Wow! That's impressive.


----------



## quality_sound

Babs said:


> Whoah I didn't expect that!! Wow! That's impressive.



I wouldn't put too much weight on that statement. He switched from active to passive when he swapped amps. That was probably the difference he was hearing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2010hummerguy

He told me that he is going to test the 4180 full active on his front stage this week


----------



## Babs

Apples to apples then. It'll be a good read for sure.


----------



## cajunner

Can somebody start a new thread with this title and body? my computer is acting crazy and won't let me open a new thread, since my mouse is on the fritz... much thanks to whoever lends a hand!!



Class D design comparisons


so much is being made of the new Hypex UcD technology in the Biketronics amplifiers, that I thought it reminded me of the rollout of ICEPower, or Bang and Olufsen's class D circuit design.

Then there are JL's special RIPS circuit, added to the class D, and perhaps a 'came before' design, in the Alto Mobile class D full range amplifiers from years past.

starting them off, we had Infinity and some full range class D, "digital" amps with their funny little heatsinks that look like steps for fins, and you have the old plastic shrouded Blaupunkt, a little later on from then but well back there, if you were around...

and who can forget the first MMATS with the gutsiest looking transformer toroid coil, we had ever seen? Obviously to increase rail voltages, obviously?

Then there's the weird but much less known variants, like Blade Technologies, or Harrison Labs, or Rockford's naming conventions, with their BD stuff...


so now that we've named most of the class D circuits that have had commercial success, can we yet rank them on terms of power, sound quality, noise floor, and those intangibles that relate to warmth, or sterile sound?

I bet there are a few people here on the board that can at least give a rudimentary grade based on universally acknowledged amp envelope performance, right?

How does your class D go, in the garden of audiophile dreams?


----------



## aznlunatic

Babs said:


> Whoah I didn't expect that!! Wow! That's impressive.


Let me clear that up a bit, 180 watts going into a crossover network thats connected to my mids and highs. When i did this test it sounded good, now just to point out im not a hardcore audiophile or anything but to me the front stage got loud and stayed clean as i turned it up. 

I will be taking out the hybrid crossovers that came with my component set out of the picture and running active off this amp which means that each tweeter and midbass speaker will have 180 watts available to them sometime within the next day or so. So it will be a better comparison this time around.


----------



## Babs

aznlunatic said:


> Let me clear that up a bit, 180 watts going into a crossover network thats connected to my mids and highs. When i did this test it sounded good, now just to point out im not a hardcore audiophile or anything but to me the front stage got loud and stayed clean as i turned it up.
> 
> I will be taking out the hybrid crossovers that came with my component set out of the picture and running active off this amp which means that each tweeter and midbass speaker will have 180 watts available to them sometime within the next day or so. So it will be a better comparison this time around.


Thanks.. Looking forward to your assessment. If the noise floor is quiet, the detail, power, control and accuracy is good, these are certainly venerable and capable amps, regardless if they're an Audison alternative or not. For what they are, doggone tiny little amps you can install anywhere, they're definitely an installers dream I'd say.


----------



## aznlunatic

Babs said:


> Thanks.. Looking forward to your assessment. If the noise floor is quiet, the detail, power, control and accuracy is good, these are certainly venerable and capable amps, regardless if they're an Audison alternative or not. For what they are, doggone tiny little amps you can install anywhere, they're definitely an installers dream I'd say.


Yea, I understand my first impression wasn't very clear because I was comparing the setup coming from an active system so it wasn't a fair assessment. Once I switch everything back so the whole from stage is ran active from the BT4180 it will be clear how this amp really sounds and performs compared to my massive Audison which is a class A/AB/D amp. 

The tiny form factor is what got me very interested in this amp, I'm just a sucker for small amps that can put out some good power. I'll be able to provide a better in-depth review once everything is switched to active and I've had a little bit more time with the amp.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

I confirmed with one of the engineers at BT today that the amp does not normalize voltage between front/rear channels via DSP. Front/rear inputs are treated independently and allow for external gain control/fading. So I'm working with aznlunatic to figure out if there is something else that is causing the issue...could be at the 80PRS. I'm going to test with my BT4180 tonight.


----------



## aznlunatic

So I was just about to message Architect7 but he got to me first. Since everything was already switched over to active, i double checked the connection and reset all the settings. Not sure what I did but im able to change the levels of all the speakers now. So I ran auto TA/EQ from the 80prs. Did some testing for about an hour listening to all kinds of music, my impression is that everything is very crisp and detailed compared to the audison which sounds warmer. I didnt spend much time with this setup since i went back to the front stage being passive and the subs off the rear channels of the BT4180. So going back to this setup I havent had much time to assess the sound quality but the first thing right off the bat that i notice is that 48db rolloff is very noticeable since the two SI BM MKIV's do not dig as low, Architect7 already mentioned this issue and is working with the designer to see if we can remove the rolloff, if so this amp is definitely amazing and puts out a ton of power. So sorry about being a noob and reviewing this unit with operator error.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

No apologies necessary! Really glad it is working well for your setup now. Hoping to have filter removal instructions soon, stay tuned


----------



## Babs

I think I've found amps for the truck if that rolloff business can be addressed.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Initial discussion with the designer is promising...it isn't as simple as just pulling a component but it does sound like it is adjustable to below 20hz...they are going to test with one this week and then document the process for us to follow for a DIY solution.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

If this checks out. I am on board for this. If I have read it right. You all are modifying the amplifier to play full range 180 x 4. If this is the case. My wife car audio system will get amplified and she will never know it!


----------



## TrickyRicky

I just wonder if about the current draw at full power (all four channels), if its 180watts per ch and 90% efficient (amplifier is 90% efficient, don't know about the power supply but for the hell of it we'll say its 90% efficient as well) you'll draw peaks of around 50 amperage. Wonder if it can handle a sine wave test like other amps can.


----------



## Babs

D'avore tester time. Lol


----------



## TrickyRicky

Perhaps BigDWiz can get his hands on one.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

TrickyRicky said:


> I just wonder if about the current draw at full power (all four channels), if its 180watts per ch and 90% efficient (amplifier is 90% efficient, don't know about the power supply but for the hell of it we'll say its 90% efficient as well) you'll draw peaks of around 50 amperage. Wonder if it can handle a sine wave test like other amps can.


I checked my fusing and it is externally fused at 50amps per BT recommendation (no internal fuse). I know I've seen people successfully test Hypex modules with full sine waves on diyaudio.com and audiocircle.com but this was with Hypex AC power supplies. I haven't seen someone test a BT amp/DC power supply with a full sine wave but I am sure it is only a matter of time before someone does.


----------



## Babs

I was just googling and saw this DIY car amp based on Hypex.
UcD car amp


----------



## Treesive

Babs said:


> I was just googling and saw this DIY car amp based on Hypex.
> UcD car amp


Good find. I wish he would have went further with the testing.


----------



## TrickyRicky

I remember seen that on diyaudio a while back.


----------



## RocketBoots

Architect7 said:


> Initial discussion with the designer is promising...it isn't as simple as just pulling a component but it does sound like it is adjustable to below 20hz...they are going to test with one this week and then document the process for us to follow for a DIY solution.


So will they be offering the amps without the filter, or just make us (the customers) DIY it? Also, do you know if doing this will void the warranty?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

They want to eventually offer the amps without the filters...the DIY solution will be for people like myself who already have a couple of them or want to convert later on.

Pretty sure they will retain full warranty...the issue that the 45hz filter helps mitigate is Harley guys blowing speakers with these amps by sending a full range signal at full power for hours at a time.


----------



## Mr.Bill

Hi,

This is Bill from Biketronics Inc. I have been reading this forum forever, just setup a free account to help with this thread. I will look into setting up an official sponsor account.

Removing the cutoff is not a big deal for us, we design and build everything but the Hypex modules in-house and it is just a value change on a couple of SMT parts. It is not really something I see doing in the field though unless someone is skilled at soldering tiny parts. 0603 caps and resisters.

Do you guys think the amp should be wide open or would a subsonic filter be a good idea? Those really low frequencies are just hard on parts and we already tend to blow a lot of speakers with our amps. I was thinking something around 20hz with a 12 db slope. 

Our BT4180 is around 90% efficient.

We laser etch the amp box so we can do custom lid designs, we only have black lids though and the etched area is shades of silver/white. Simple designs can look pretty neat. Depending on the amp order this could be thrown in or done for very little cost.

I am not an engineer but will try to answer any questions you guys have, if I don't know the answer I will find out.

Bill


----------



## Treesive

Mr.Bill said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is Bill from Biketronics Inc. I have been reading this forum forever, just setup a free account to help with this thread. I will look into setting up an official sponsor account.
> 
> Removing the cutoff is not a big deal for us, we design and build everything but the Hypex modules in-house and it is just a value change on a couple of SMT parts. It is not really something I see doing in the field though unless someone is skilled at soldering tiny parts. 0603 caps and resisters.
> 
> Do you guys think the amp should be wide open or would a subsonic filter be a good idea? Those really low frequencies are just hard on parts and we already tend to blow a lot of speakers with our amps. I was thinking something around 20hz with a 12 db slope.
> 
> Our BT4180 is around 90% efficient.
> 
> We laser etch the amp box so we can do custom lid designs, we only have black lids though and the etched area is shades of silver/white. Simple designs can look pretty neat. Depending on the amp order this could be thrown in or done for very little cost.
> 
> I am not an engineer but will try to answer any questions you guys have, if I don't know the answer I will find out.
> 
> Bill


Nice to have you here Bill. On the subsonic or not, I don't want a subsonic if it is anything over 20hz so your idea would work for me. I haven't had the chance to have a sit down in the car to critique my 4180 but so far so good. It has been impressive. Love the signatures on the back of the amp btw. Awesome idea!


----------



## aznlunatic

I believe having the amp wide open would be a better choice as that allows people to do whatever they want with them for their application instead of having any kind of limitations, I understand it's hard on parts and well if I blow my speakers for pushing them then that's my fault and not the amps fault for not having a filter. May I ask how many caps and resistors I would have to replace or even better remove the entire filter to make the amp wide open? I do precision soldering on instrument panels for boeing airplanes so soldering is almost second nature for me


----------



## Babs

Awesome!!! Helen GA in late May Bill. Southeast Victory Rally. Big event. Good exposure. Give Arc a run for their money in the Vic market.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I agree with wide open, then again the majority of people here on this forum are using some sort of dsp that they can use to limit the low end. I personally wouldn't want any filter, but that really only matters when using them for sub duty.

Personally, I would kill for some BT2400's. That would give one amp for my sub, one for midbasses, and a BT4180 for midrange and tweeters.


----------



## Mr.Bill

From a warranty standpoint I would rather just take care of it for people that have amps and then send them out that way for new customers. I am sure some people (especially on this site) can handle it but I would be worried about people trying without the proper tools or training. It is also in a location that makes it really hard to get at once the boards are soldered together, much easier before our last step.

I believe it is 8 parts to change the filter point, removing the filter completely is harder and will involve jumper wires and lifting legs on a couple of ICs. We could move the filter down to something like 10hz though, maybe that could work for everyone.

Bill


----------



## Bruneti

Thanks for joining the discussion Bill. I think most on this forum would prefer the subsonic filter removed, but there are some systems here that can dig really low. A 10hz might be an acceptable compromise. A lot of folks here pay attention to small high quality amps that produce good power. 

Couple questions:
1. What amount of car audio sales would support Biketronics designing a 5 or 7 channel amp with a high(ish) power sub channel (500+ watts)? 
2. Has Biketronics played with any Ncore modules?


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Again, thanks for joining us Mr Bill! Great to have you.

I agree that most of us here would prefer wide open signal and adjust at our dsp or what ever processor each guy is using. That is how id like to see them. Also, BT2400?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Bill is THE man! Glad you joined the party, very exciting to have one of BT's own here


----------



## RocketBoots

Bill, great that you chimed in; your input is much appreciated. In regards to the filter, I'd personally be fine with crossing it at 20 Hz, or 10 Hz. Also, I totally agree with you about you guys doing the modifications in house. I don't see how you could offer a warranty otherwise. 

Could you address a few points? 

Wanted to confirm that there is no normalization done by BT amps, and that we can adjust the levels with an external DSP, since there are no gains on the amps. In other words, if I'm sending 2v to channels 1,2 and 3v to channels 3,4 the amp will not just make them all 2v or whatever. 

Could you clarify the situation with wiring? Since the gauge is so small, would it be fine to just have a short run to a terminal strip, then thicker gauge for longer lengths to the speaker?

Are there any plans to incorporate the larger 400 or 700 modules, and sacrifice some size? Or would power supply be a limiting factor?

Thanks!


----------



## Mr.Bill

Hi Guys,

1. What amount of car audio sales would support Biketronics designing a 5 or 7 channel amp with a high(ish) power sub channel (500+ watts)?
*It is something we plan on doing, just have been so buried trying to keep up with Harley sales we have not gotten it done. First would be a 5 chan, our current power supply design in the 4180 would support that with almost no changes. 7 channel would be further out.*

2. Has Biketronics played with any Ncore modules? 
*Mike, the owner and engineer here, is starting a guitar amp company and has been testing them. I have not played with them yet. See *Vivid Amplifiers

3. Wanted to confirm that there is no normalization done by BT amps, and that we can adjust the levels with an external DSP, since there are no gains on the amps. In other words, if I'm sending 2v to channels 1,2 and 3v to channels 3,4 the amp will not just make them all 2v or whatever.
*We do not have any auto-gain function, it is fixed and each channel is separate so you could have a different input and output level on all channels.*

4. Could you clarify the situation with wiring? Since the gauge is so small, would it be fine to just have a short run to a terminal strip, then thicker gauge for longer lengths to the speaker?
*Our connectors are geared toward how efficient our amps are and the short wiring used in a Harley setup, for a car that idea would work great. If/when we make a dedicated car amp I will go with "normal" screw terminals.*

5. Are there any plans to incorporate the larger 400 or 700 modules, and sacrifice some size? Or would power supply be a limiting factor?
*We have been testing a lot of higher powered modules (see # 2), fastest change for us would be to move to the 250 watt parts, they are almost a drop in for our current design. After that would be a mostly ground up product and take awhile. Personally I would love a 5 channel with the 5th being a 400 watt module. I think that would do it for a high percentage of people and the really nuts guys could use that and another 2 or 4 channel.*

Bill


----------



## RocketBoots

Bill,

Thank you for your responses. We greatly appreciate the information.


----------



## Treesive

I'm a little more power hungry. I would be more along the lines of a 4180 and a 2 channel consisting of a pair of 700 modules!! My tc lms stash like 700 more than 400


----------



## SPAZ

Hi Bill, Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. If bridging was enabled from the factory on the BT4180 how many watts of output would be available per channel in 4ohn load? Thanks


----------



## 2010hummerguy

SPAZ said:


> Hi Bill, Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. If bridging was enabled from the factory on the BT4180 how many watts of output would be available per channel in 4ohn load? Thanks


Check out the link I posted to diyaudio earlier in this thread, there is not much benefit to bridging the 180 modules because they are current limited. You're better off running at 2 ohms or graduating to 400 modules.


----------



## piyush7243

Thanks Architect7 for meeting up and giving an audition in Seattle. Just replaced my gzpa ref 4xs with 4180,

Just listened for an hour without any tuning. It's damn clean. Seems unrealistic at times. In really happy with the initial impressions. Will be posting a review in around 20 days once I'm back home


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Awesome!!! Was great meeting you in person as well, hope you have a safe trip home!


----------



## Babs

piyush7243 said:


> Thanks Architect7 for meeting up and giving an audition in Seattle. Just replaced my gzpa ref 4xs with 4180,
> 
> Just listened for an hour without any tuning. It's damn clean. Seems unrealistic at times. In really happy with the initial impressions. Will be posting a review in around 20 days once I'm back home


Should we assume "unrealistic" means too good to believe out of such a tiny little amp?


----------



## piyush7243

Babs said:


> Should we assume "unrealistic" means too good to believe out of such a tiny little amp?


Yeah. That's one way of putting it. Also the air around instrument which sometimes bloated the tone seem to have disappeared completely. Hence feeling a bit odd. Anyone else who has listened to these can check the same. I heard the same thing in Emet car as well


----------



## piyush7243

Architect7 said:


> Awesome!!! Was great meeting you in person as well, hope you have a safe trip home!


I'm already home bro. It was great meeting you


----------



## Victor_inox

piyush7243 said:


> Yeah. That's one way of putting it. Also the air around instrument which sometimes bloated the tone seem to have disappeared completely. Hence feeling a bit odd. Anyone else who has listened to these can check the same. I heard the same thing in Emet car as well


 Air as media transferring sound waves? so it`s sounds like in vacuum?


----------



## piyush7243

Victor_inox said:


> Air as media transferring sound waves? so it`s sounds like in vacuum?


Lol ,I wish I can hear sound in vacuum. What I meant was that the instruments are very accurate now as compared to earlier.


----------



## Victor_inox

piyush7243 said:


> Lol ,I wish I can hear sound in vacuum. What I meant was that the instruments are very accurate now as compared to earlier.


Just messing with ya... Audiophiles or audiofools like some calling us in this board refer to it as veil...being pulled off.


----------



## piyush7243

Victor_inox said:


> Just messing with ya... Audiophiles or audiofools like some calling us in this board refer to it as veil...being pulled off.


Understood


----------



## 2010hummerguy

piyush7243 said:


> I'm already home bro. It was great meeting you


Excellent!!! Post pics of the final install when you get a chance, I'd love to see where you ended up hiding it 

Let me know when you're back in the states, we'll do another listening session but this time with my home setup and more Hypex amps


----------



## Mr.Bill

Hi Guys,

Just wanted let everyone know I now have BT4180s and BT2180s in stock with a 10hz cutoff, instead of our usual 45hz. I also made a coupon code for our website to give DIY guys 10% our website price on these amps. Use DIYForum as the code and make sure and add a note to your order if you need the lower cutoff part.

Bill


----------



## rton20s

Very cool. It is nice to see the company be so responsive! Thank you.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Awesome news


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Thank you Mr. Bill! lol..


----------



## UltranutZ

Mr.Bill said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> 1. What amount of car audio sales would support Biketronics designing a 5 or 7 channel amp with a high(ish) power sub channel (500+ watts)?
> *It is something we plan on doing, just have been so buried trying to keep up with Harley sales we have not gotten it done. First would be a 5 chan, our current power supply design in the 4180 would support that with almost no changes. 7 channel would be further out.*
> 
> 2. Has Biketronics played with any Ncore modules?
> *Mike, the owner and engineer here, is starting a guitar amp company and has been testing them. I have not played with them yet. See *Vivid Amplifiers
> 
> 3. Wanted to confirm that there is no normalization done by BT amps, and that we can adjust the levels with an external DSP, since there are no gains on the amps. In other words, if I'm sending 2v to channels 1,2 and 3v to channels 3,4 the amp will not just make them all 2v or whatever.
> *We do not have any auto-gain function, it is fixed and each channel is separate so you could have a different input and output level on all channels.*
> 
> 4. Could you clarify the situation with wiring? Since the gauge is so small, would it be fine to just have a short run to a terminal strip, then thicker gauge for longer lengths to the speaker?
> *Our connectors are geared toward how efficient our amps are and the short wiring used in a Harley setup, for a car that idea would work great. If/when we make a dedicated car amp I will go with "normal" screw terminals.*
> 
> 5. Are there any plans to incorporate the larger 400 or 700 modules, and sacrifice some size? Or would power supply be a limiting factor?
> *We have been testing a lot of higher powered modules (see # 2), fastest change for us would be to move to the 250 watt parts, they are almost a drop in for our current design. After that would be a mostly ground up product and take awhile. Personally I would love a 5 channel with the 5th being a 400 watt module. I think that would do it for a high percentage of people and the really nuts guys could use that and another 2 or 4 channel.*
> 
> Bill


Who you calling NutZ?


----------



## piyush7243

Mr.Bill said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just wanted let everyone know I now have BT4180s and BT2180s in stock with a 10hz cutoff, instead of our usual 45hz. I also made a coupon code for our website to give DIY guys 10% our website price on these amps. Use DIYForum as the code and make sure and add a note to your order if you need the lower cutoff part.
> 
> Bill


For the people who already bought , can the part be send over or if you can tell us how to achieve the same in existing Amp with any Mods


----------



## TrickyRicky

piyush7243 said:


> For the people who already bought , can the part be send over or if you can tell us how to achieve the same in existing Amp with any Mods


Am pretty sure you'll have to replace a few surface mount resistors. So chances are you will have to send it in unless your good with SMD....but since it only a 3lb tiny amplifier I don't see why it would cost more than 6 bucks to ship back to the manufacture.

Ship it in a medium bubble envelope.....lol.


----------



## piyush7243

TrickyRicky said:


> Am pretty sure you'll have to replace a few surface mount resistors. So chances are you will have to send it in unless your good with SMD....but since it only a 3lb tiny amplifier I don't see why it would cost more than 6 bucks to ship back to the manufacture.
> 
> Ship it in a medium bubble envelope.....lol.


It's in India so that $6 can easily become $60 one way 

let's see what can be done else will buy a 2 Channel module for my Midbass and use the 4 channel for midrange and tweets


----------



## Mr.Bill

piyush7243 said:


> For the people who already bought , can the part be send over or if you can tell us how to achieve the same in existing Amp with any Mods


Unfortunately I would have to do it. It is not something I would feel comfortable having a customer do. I would be happy to take care of it if you paid for shipping, USPS International would probably be about $27 each way from India though.

Bill


----------



## piyush7243

Mr.Bill said:


> Unfortunately I would have to do it. It is not something I would feel comfortable having a customer do. I would be happy to take care of it if you paid for shipping, USPS International would probably be about $27 each way from India though.
> 
> Bill


Understood, but I never trust USPS even coming to India as tracking here is noon existent. I have never received any item till now via them


----------



## Mr.Bill

piyush7243 said:


> Understood, but I never trust USPS even coming to India as tracking here is noon existent. I have never received any item till now via them


That's too bad. We always ship that way for international and I don't think we have ever had an issue. But I also don't know how often we have shipped to India. We have had lots of issues using other carriers, that's why we only do USPS for international now.

Bill


----------



## ep120794

Can't wait to put one of these on my Road Glide!


----------



## cajunner

Mr.Bill said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just wanted let everyone know I now have BT4180s and BT2180s in stock with a 10hz cutoff, instead of our usual 45hz. I also made a coupon code for our website to give DIY guys 10% our website price on these amps. Use DIYForum as the code and make sure and add a note to your order if you need the lower cutoff part.
> 
> Bill


WOW!

10% regular price is like, 62 bucks!

that's awesome, Mr. Bill!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

My math says $519 for the 4180, is that correct Bill? -10% from $649 regular price off of the $584.95 price? Damn thats a nice deal!!

Even -10% of listed price is a very solid deal. As soon as I get back from Mexico in April I may have to give one a try..


----------



## Mr.Bill

deeppinkdiver said:


> My math says $519 for the 4180, is that correct Bill? -10% from $649 regular price off of the $584.95 price? Damn thats a nice deal!!
> 
> Even -10% of listed price is a very solid deal. As soon as I get back from Mexico in April I may have to give one a try..


Actually $526.45, for the next couple of days , the web price will be going back up soon (having a hard time keeping them on the shelf) and then it would be $584.95 with the code. To be perfectly honest I had forgotten they already had 10% off online 

Bill


----------



## 2010hummerguy

And since pretty much no one lives in Idaho, no sales tax and free shipping. Pretty sweet deal!

Bill, can't wait to come see you guys this summer and check out what you all are coming up with next


----------



## claydo

I'm thinking maybe I should order before the rate goes back up.....tell me tho mr. Bill.......how long before I can get a sub amp too? I'm thinking 2x400 at 3 ohms would do........just asking cos I would love to have matching tiny amps......lol. A four channel and a two will suit my front end rather well.......if ya just had a sub solution......


----------



## aznlunatic

claydo said:


> I'm thinking maybe I should order before the rate goes back up.....tell me tho mr. Bill.......how long before I can get a sub amp too? I'm thinking 2x400 at 3 ohms would do........just asking cos I would love to have matching tiny amps......lol. A four channel and a two will suit my front end rather well.......if ya just had a sub solution......



They have the BT2180 with a 10hz filter for sub duty and it puts out 360watts at 2ohms x 2 channels


----------



## claydo

I have two 3 ohm subs.......that are power hungry......so the 2x180 ain't quite gonna replace the current power they are getting. Jl and their stupid 3 ohm subs..........the two channels only fits mine in the midbass dept.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Two UcD400's or even two UcD250's would do the trick, rms at 3 ohms would probably be closer to 500ish+ and 375ish, respectively. But I personally haven't worked with a 400OEM module before so not sure if it is too big for the 2180 or 4180 chassis...per Bill's earlier comment, 250 modules are basically a drop in option.


----------



## claydo

500 ish would be sweet.....that would be perfect for the subs. 400 would be adequate tho.....


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Right on, I'll let Bill comment on the possibility of a UcD400 based amp, I know I'd totally be down for one to power the upcoming SI BM MKV.


----------



## claydo

A full matching set would be straight dope.....lol.


----------



## Treesive

Architect7 said:


> Right on, I'll let Bill comment on the possibility of a UcD400 based amp, I know I'd totally be down for one to power the upcoming SI BM MKV.


If it is possible to get a UcD400 2-channel option in the bt4180 sink without having to redesign the power supply etc I will send the money for it right now. Would fit my needs on the substage side very well. I as well like matching amp installs and my se2300 just doesn't look right sitting by my bt4180...


----------



## Guest

Agreed, a UcD400 based 2 channel would be perfect for most users out there...


----------



## claydo

Treesive said:


> If it is possible to get a UcD400 2-channel option in the bt4180 sink without having to redesign the power supply etc I will send the money for it right now. Would fit my needs on the substage side very well. I as well like matching amp installs and my se2300 just doesn't look right sitting by my bt4180...


Werd.....matching amps ftw.


----------



## rton20s

Since we're speaking in hypotheticals anyway... 
Would it be possible to make these potential new amps (UcD400 and/or UcD250 based designs) bridgeable? Some of us only run a single subwoofer and have a spare channel going unused could drive us insane.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^that just means it's time to add a second lol


----------



## claydo

Werd stubborn......perfect excuse for another sub!


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ^that just means it's time to add a second lol





claydo said:


> Werd stubborn......perfect excuse for another sub!


I was wondering who was going to be the first to say that. I knew it would be the go to response before I even clicked "Submit Reply."


----------



## Mr.Bill

Treesive said:


> If it is possible to get a UcD400 2-channel option in the bt4180 sink without having to redesign the power supply etc I will send the money for it right now. Would fit my needs on the substage side very well. I as well like matching amp installs and my se2300 just doesn't look right sitting by my bt4180...


The ucd400 is pretty big so while it wouldn't be too hard to make them work with the 4180 power supply I don't think I can fit two without a new box. One maybe, still looking at it. Unfortunately this is about the time of year when the Harley sales go crazy so unless it is relatively easy project it might be a while. We did recently get a really nice CnC and a guy to run it so that will help for projects that involve new boxes.

Bill


----------



## claydo

One is 400x2 right?........omg...just do eet!


Or is one just a mono module?


----------



## Guest

It's a mono module


----------



## claydo

Aw, boo.....well, I guess I could do two....lol


----------



## Victor_inox

I`ve got one just today,THis thing is stupidly small it can fit under anywhere, spare din space for example. here is how it sits on macbook air and weight just under 2LB 6OZ


----------



## UltranutZ

here's what it looks like next to a RF 3sixty.3

Nice stuff no doubt!


----------



## Babs

These things are so freakin' WIN. 

You guys that have used them.. No kidding.. They really THAT good? Like maybe JL XD or Alpine PDX good? I could fit like four of 'em under a tacoma seat. I gotta re-read this thread again.  Heck, behind the doggone glove box for pete's sake.


----------



## UltranutZ

they are kick ass little amps designed very well to perform very well. Goals achieved as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## cajunner

Victor_inox said:


> I`ve got one just today,THis thing is stupidly small it can fit under anywhere, spare din space for example. here is how it sits on macbook air and weight just under 2LB 6OZ


anxiously awaiting a subjective review from a man who by now, I am convinced knows a lot about how amps sound.

Does that mean you will be able to use the jargon to compare these to the very best amplifiers available, I hope so..

and does that mean you won't pull any punches when you find they are cleaner sounding than a motorcycle amp is supposed to sound?

and if they are actually "just as good" as the UCD module-based products in the home audio market, because the power supply was made well and does it's job without any flaws, would you recommend them with your tube preamp as an all-out, sound quality contender against any and all comers like the Mosconi Zero or the Audison Thesis or the flagship Sinfoni?


that would be cool. 


I have a feeling the car amp industry that got turned on, by the creation of relatively tiny class D miniature amplifiers, will once again get re-upped in macho attitude with the inclusion of a superior design that is ever more efficient, in an even smaller footprint.

and a serious question:

if you had to give this amp a rating, with the best you've heard reaching a 10 and say, a cheap amp like the PPI Atom or Picasso Nano hits a 5...

what say ye?


----------



## Babs

Architect7 said:


> Pretty small...10-12ga. for power/ground and 18-22ga. for everything else. My power/ground leads are very short.
> 
> Edit: Scratch that, 14ga. for power/ground and 18ga. for everything else.


So a guy could theoretically run a couple of these from say a modest 4 gauge or dare I suggest even 8 gauge power/ground runs, distributed to say 12 gauge pos/neg at the amps? 

Just the idea is exciting. The fun would be finding distro's appropriately sized.


----------



## UltranutZ

as you can see, I'm running 2 of them utilizing the 12ga power wire and 14ga ground wire provided with the amp on a motorcycle and it doesn't even come close to phasing the measley 55a charging system on this bike. Very efficient design for sure.

With my Sony 810BH head unit which has 5v outs, I get to about position 15 out of 50 on the volume and I can't stand it any louder.

I did verify their outputs using my homemade dummy load, 1khz 0db tone, and scope. Un-clipped output was right at 330/channel into a 2 ohm load and 165/channel into a 4 ohm load, 2 channels driven at 14.4v.

That's pretty damned impressive for an amp that utilizes a 14ga power and ground wire IMO.


----------



## Victor_inox

cajunner said:


> anxiously awaiting a subjective review from a man who by now, I am convinced knows a lot about how amps sound.
> 
> Does that mean you will be able to use the jargon to compare these to the very best amplifiers available, I hope so..
> 
> and does that mean you won't pull any punches when you find they are cleaner sounding than a motorcycle amp is supposed to sound?
> 
> and if they are actually "just as good" as the UCD module-based products in the home audio market, because the power supply was made well and does it's job without any flaws, would you recommend them with your tube preamp as an all-out, sound quality contender against any and all comers like the Mosconi Zero or the Audison Thesis or the flagship Sinfoni?
> 
> 
> that would be cool.
> 
> 
> I have a feeling the car amp industry that got turned on, by the creation of relatively tiny class D miniature amplifiers, will once again get re-upped in macho attitude with the inclusion of a superior design that is ever more efficient, in an even smaller footprint.
> 
> and a serious question:
> 
> if you had to give this amp a rating, with the best you've heard reaching a 10 and say, a cheap amp like the PPI Atom or Picasso Nano hits a 5...
> 
> what say ye?


Don`t run in front of locomotive. I plan on very detail review on this.


----------



## lesliev

Architect7 said:


> At last, the Biketronics BT4180 review!!! This has been months in the making; thankfully my day job has slowed down enough due to the holidays that I can finally write this without distraction. I’ve also attempted this review a few different times and scrapped each draft. It is difficult to write a review on amps given how polarizing amp SQ is. With that, I only have two guidelines for this thread:
> 
> 1.)	I am not here to convince you that amps sound different. No one ever wins these arguments, we might as well start talking about religion or sports team loyalty. Literally no one has ever changed anyone's mind regarding any of these topics by arguing online and I am not about to attempt this impossible task today.
> 
> 2.)	Please do not argue about our ability to or lack thereof to hear a difference between amps. If you believe we can hear a difference, awesome. If you do not, guess what, I have an area in this review for you as well. If you want to argue this topic, please see the Higher End Amp SQ Myth thread here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...stry-dogma/141216-higher-end-amp-sq-myth.html
> 
> Now that we’ve performed that bit of housekeeping, let me first introduce you to the company known as Biketronics:
> 
> Years ago my mom told me that she and my father had some friends who built and sold parts for Harley Davidsons in my hometown of Moscow, ID. I’m not a huge fan of motorcycles and especially Harleys so this piece of information went in one ear and out the other. Fast forward to the summer of 2012, I was back in Idaho for a friend’s wedding when another one of my closest friends from high school called me up saying he had the field trip of a lifetime for me. He said it was a small electronics manufacturer and proceeded to tell me that they were building some really cool niche market audio equipment. Audio field trip? Don’t have to tell me twice about such an offer. I was extremely excited, especially given the escape from wedding preparations.
> 
> The next day we ventured down to the end of a large metal commercial building. It looked like where you see startup body shops or small town gymnastics studios; the affordable commercial mini mall. We went inside and were greeted by their purchasing director who gave me a personal tour of the place. It was BUSTLING with activity, people working on PCBs, taking orders over the phone, packing up shipments for UPS, etc. They were obviously very busy and outgrowing their space.
> 
> The director showed me all sorts of cool stuff. Woofers, tweeters, power supplies, amplifiers, even funny stories about a speaker “torture chamber” that he built to simulate intense heat/cold/humidity. That was an interesting discussion as I learned that the most resilient speakers he had ever tested were the HAT Imagines which took extreme head/cold/humidity with ease for a 24 hour period as it played at maximum output and did not skip a beat. Meanwhile he had destroyed the likes of Focal, Rockford Fosgate, and many other speakers with this same testing as well as many micro amps from other manufacturers (Rockford’s “boosted rail” amps were a dirty word there given how quickly they go into limp mode even with easy loads). This was my first real exposure to HAT which would later lead to me installing Unity components in my wife’s Jeep Grand Cherokee. His dedication to testing and finding the best products for his end customers was fascinating.
> 
> At this point in 2012 I had avoided the car audio world since departing it in 2004 to focus my time and money on finishing school and subsequently starting my career in the Seattle area. However, I had just recently re-entered the DIY home audio hobby about 6 months prior and I was in the process of evolving my active 2 channel speaker system loosely based on the Linkwitz Orions. I was using a 6-channel Rotel RB-976 for my amplification but I had been learning a lot about a company known as Hypex based in the Netherlands, mostly from extensive reading on Class D - diyAudio and Hypex Owners Circle. I was extremely excited to recognize Hypex modules on the purchasing director’s workbench. Even some modules I did not recognize, known as the UcD100OEM which they used in an older model of their amp. He began to tell me about these amazing little amps and how they are nearly 100% efficient, highly tolerant to volatile physical/electrical conditions, incredibly good noise rejection, tiny footprint, etc. I was considering building my own Hypex amp for home use but it had never occurred to me to use them in a car, though it made perfect sense.
> 
> Suddenly it occurred to me that these were my parents’ friends! Except they didn’t build just normal parts for Harleys, they were building audiophile grade packages for these bikes. First, I had no idea that there was such a market for high end audio gear. And second, I was extremely impressed with how much they did in house. They build the 12v power supplies, input stages and cases all there in the same facility before installing the Hypex amp modules for final shipping. What a small world it is!
> 
> Over the last ten years my mother’s health has been quite a roller coaster. She’s undergone numerous surgeries, emergency room visits and even a week in ICU with 50/50 odds of living. Like many mothers, she has a very stubborn side and sometimes needs a little coaxing to seek out the right medical assistance. Additionally, I am the only family member that she typically listens to and so I decided to move back to the Idaho area to help guide her on a path of recovery for her conditions. This meant I was also going to be local to Biketronics! Not a bad side benefit and fast forward to today, my mother’s health is very good now
> 
> During the 10 months that we lived in the area I came to know the owners very well. They had since taken over a retired Honda dealership which was ~20x larger than their old space, though last I visited only a few months ago in August, they appeared on track to outgrow that space as well! At the time, when my schedule permitted I would also attend a Tuesday evening session they would hold at their headquarters for anyone who wanted to come talk tech and use any of the tooling there to streamline prototyping of their own projects. An especially priceless offering for the many nearby engineering students at the University of Idaho and Washington State University. In fact, this open-door facility is formally known as their “Fab-Lab”, first announced here in 2010: BIKETRONICS OWNER DREAMS OF A FAB LAB IN MOSCOW. - States News Service | HighBeam Research
> And most recently for winning an award in June of this year, reported here: Palouse Knowledge Corridor | Palouse Knowledge Corridor award highlights local entrepreneurs
> 
> In June of 2013 we finally moved back home to the Seattle area after seeing my mother through to good health. We were sad to move away from Biketronics; my wife was managing their logistics department and I was visiting on a regular basis, tinkering with amps with the owner and eating as much Mexican food as possible, prepared by one of their employees, Maria, who is from Mexico. To this day, Maria’s homemade hot sauce is still the best I have ever had.
> 
> After our return to Seattle we remained in close contact with the owners. I was having issues fitting amps in my truck, there is literally no space in these Hummers for anything, it is pretty ridiculous. The factory amp location is only 10”x10” so I did not have much space to work with. It finally occurred to me that I should try a Biketronics BT4180. At only 5”x7” I could even fit two of them. Here’s my current BT4180 installed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Meehan, the owner, sent me a BT4180 to test and it only took 15 minutes to install thanks to its small size and simple spring terminals. Only a fine-tipped object is required for installation to depress each spring terminal while fitting each wire. Super simple and RCAs attach with ease as well.
> 
> Each BT4180 is built with four UcD180OEM modules, an input stage which converts the single ended inputs to differential for the UcD modules and then their own homegrown power supply which converts 12v to the high rail voltage required by the UcD modules. Here’s the inside of my BT4180 which shows how well these utilize their diminutive cases. Notice the four UcD modules on the left, custom power supply on the right, input stage board on top and then two cooling fans on the far right (which I have never heard turn on, even on 4-5 hour drives at high volume):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those of you who believe all amps sound the same, here are the objective benefits of this amp:
> 
> 1.)	Zero noise, even at high volume. Literally the lowest noise floor I have ever worked with in an automotive environment.
> 
> 2.)	Huge power output. Even at very high volumes driving my Dynaudio Esotar 650 mids and CSS LD25X tweeters, I have never been able to send the amp into clipping. With 180wpc [email protected], this amp definitely meets or beats output of the top 20 percentile of amps on the market. I haven’t seen an amp move my Esotars as much as this does. Tons of midbass kick.
> 
> 3.)	Small, smaller than the smallest USPS flat rate box. You could probably fit 3 of these under most seats. You could even fit one of these in some dashboards, one could easily fit behind my P99 in my truck.
> 
> 4.)	Easy to set up with the spring terminals. No gains to worry about. The Hypex modules can take a huge signal without clipping yet need a very small signal to reach full power output. I have no idea how they do this but it just works…kind of nice for people who do not want to worry about calibrating gains. It is a great match for my P99 which was able to gain down its own outputs during the auto-calibration process, further lowering the noise floor.
> 
> 5.)	Efficient, these are made to create full power on a Harley charging system. You can run a few of these in a typical car without needing to upgrade your electrical. Great for high end installs where the stock electrical system must be utilized (expensive/exotic cars, boats, etc.).
> 
> 6.)	Lifetime warranty…wow!
> 
> My subjective listening impressions:
> 
> 1.)	Crystal clear sound at all volumes. Even at very low volume, music sounds clearer than any amp I’ve had in here before. I can make out lyrics even when I turn it down. Something that wasn’t ever quite possible with other amps I’ve had in this truck. Could be a function of the higher power output but basically it translates to better perceived clarity.
> 
> 2.)	Big sound. Other amps I have used sounded a bit more narrow or hollow. The BT4180 creates a sound stage that feels large and enveloping.
> 
> 3.)	More dynamic…again, probably thanks to the higher power capability.
> 
> 4.)	Neutral sound…I’ve never been a huge fan of overly warm amps because of the amount of distortion that seems to be added in the midrange at higher volumes. The BT4180 lets you just crank it louder and louder while remaining absolutely crystal clear. No biases at any frequencies and no perceived distortion. Very transparent to the music.
> 
> I’m hoping to have a response plot available to post soon after the team at BT throws one of these on their Audio Precision analyzer, though I know prior versions have tested ruler flat from 12hz-20khz+. Yes, flat down to 12hz at full power, no smoothing. Meaning one of these could be used to drive subwoofers with ease. Which I am planning next for a pair of SI BM MKIV 12’s under my back seat, driven by a BT2180 (2 channel version of the BT4180). I am planning a similar setup in a Mustang Cobra convertible this spring to keep equipment weight/size to a minimum for improved performance without sacrificing sound. In fact, I really have no reason why I would use any other amp from now on. They’re certainly not the cheapest amp around but being made in the USA and the lifetime warranty are two great features that help justify the investment.
> 
> Bottom line, even from a purely objective perspective these are the best amps I have ever used. I recommend them for anyone with the right budget available. Though Biketronics is very well known in the motorcycle market, they are relatively unknown in the car audio market. To help them get the word out, I am organizing a group buy so please PM me if you are interested in an amp (or two or three). I even have two extra BT4180 amps in case anyone can’t wait for the group buy (originally purchased for my wife’s Jeep but we are returning it to stock before selling it later this year to upgrade to a full size SUV). Both brand new sealed in box with full warranties.
> 
> There are a few more of these amps in the possession of some prominent members here who will likely chime in with their listening/ownership impressions as well.
> 
> Thanks for reading!
> 
> EDIT: I TOTALLY forgot to mention that these have a VERY steep filter at 45hz which drastically reduces the amount of warrantied speakers that Biketronics has to deal with. I'm working with the owner to get these removed from a BT2180 for subwoofer usage, stay tuned


. I am thinking that you might not get this small size without giving up something


----------



## Babs

UltranutZ said:


> as you can see, I'm running 2 of them utilizing the 12ga power wire and 14ga ground wire provided with the amp on a motorcycle and it doesn't even come close to phasing the measley 55a charging system on this bike. Very efficient design for sure.
> 
> With my Sony 810BH head unit which has 5v outs, I get to about position 15 out of 50 on the volume and I can't stand it any louder.
> 
> I did verify their outputs using my homemade dummy load, 1khz 0db tone, and scope. Un-clipped output was right at 330/channel into a 2 ohm load and 165/channel into a 4 ohm load, 2 channels driven at 14.4v.
> 
> That's pretty damned impressive for an amp that utilizes a 14ga power and ground wire IMO.


It's hard to sink in the idea after so much time of indoctrination for needing doggone welding cable as big as your thumb for power runs.

And doing your own wrenching I see. Equally impressive.


----------



## Victor_inox

UltranutZ said:


> as you can see, I'm running 2 of them utilizing the 12ga power wire and 14ga ground wire provided with the amp on a motorcycle and it doesn't even come close to phasing the measley 55a charging system on this bike. Very efficient design for sure.
> 
> With my Sony 810BH head unit which has 5v outs, I get to about position 15 out of 50 on the volume and I can't stand it any louder.
> 
> I did verify their outputs using my homemade dummy load, 1khz 0db tone, and scope. Un-clipped output was right at 330/channel into a 2 ohm load and 165/channel into a 4 ohm load, 2 channels driven at 14.4v.
> 
> That's pretty damned impressive for an amp that utilizes a 14ga power and ground wire IMO.


 drive it into clipping, what input voltage that will happens.


----------



## UltranutZ

Babs said:


> It's hard to sink in the idea after so much time of indoctrination for needing doggone welding cable as big as your thumb for power runs.
> 
> And doing your own wrenching I see. Equally impressive.


no one touches my bike unless I'm dead.

My signature line on the forum reads (and most don't get it)

2012 FLHTK VTPBB

V Twin Powered Boom Box.


----------



## UltranutZ

Victor_inox said:


> drive it into clipping, what input voltage that will happens.



not sure what you're after but I'll do that next time I have one in my hands and report back unless someone beats me to it.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

These really have my attention...


----------



## Victor_inox

UltranutZ said:


> not sure what you're after but I'll do that next time I have one in my hands and report back unless someone beats me to it.


max input voltage and what power it makes at almost clipping. 160W showed on your oscilloscope telling me that there should be some room for more, I hope. amplifiers without pot for gain adjustment is something to get used to. 
what is your HU output voltages 2V or 8V? See where I`m going?


----------



## bbfoto

UltranutZ said:


> not sure what you're after but I'll do that next time I have one in my hands and report back unless someone beats me to it.





Victor_inox said:


> max input voltage and what power it makes at almost clipping. 160W showed on your oscilloscope telling me that there should be some room for more, I hope. amplifiers without pot for gain adjustment is something to get used to.
> what is your HU output voltages 2V or 8V? See where I`m going?


Just as a general reference, the specs on _UltranutZ's_ Sony MEX-GS810BH say that the Front, Rear, & Subwoofer Preouts are _rated_ at 5v.

.


----------



## Babs

UltranutZ said:


> no one touches my bike unless I'm dead.
> 
> 
> 
> My signature line on the forum reads (and most don't get it)
> 
> 
> 
> 2012 FLHTK VTPBB
> 
> 
> 
> V Twin Powered Boom Box.



Yeah reason my scoot doesn't have tunes. 






Bill to let ya know I've been talkin up biketronics to my Victory folks. Cross Country's and Visions could certainly rock with your amps. I opted for a no fairing scoot as you see above so oh darn no tunes for me besides freedom performance duals, cams and other performance goodies. 

But I digress. Carry on. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

bbfoto said:


> Just as a general reference, the specs on _UltranutZ's_ Sony MEX-GS810BH say that the Front, Rear, & Subwoofer Preouts are _rated_ at 5v.
> 
> .


 meaning that at 5V input it`s not clipping but not reaching rated power?
Or is that 5V pre out is actually ******** just like the rest of headunits?
I just want to know how real is 180W at 4Ohm in particular design implemented. that`s all.


----------



## Victor_inox

Babs said:


> Yeah reason my scoot doesn't have tunes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Obnoxious farting pipes is that?


----------



## Babs

One man's fart is another man's symphony. 
Chad that's got sig potential all over it. 

That's 106 cubes of single-pin crank OHC 118ft-lbs of goodness. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Babs said:


> One man's fart is another man's symphony.
> Chad that's got sig potential all over it.
> 
> That's 106 cubes of single-pin crank OHC 118ft-lbs of goodness.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You ride and that`s what matters, even that slow ass 900Lb behemoth is light years better than cage in my book.


----------



## Babs

700ish but who's counting. Owned a couple Harley's prior so I'm indoctrinated to the cult of V-twin.  this one out does all previous though by far. Not bad for a snow mobile company.


----------



## Victor_inox

Babs said:


> 700ish but who's counting. Owned a couple Harley's prior so I'm indoctrinated to the cult of V-twin.  this one out does all previous though by far. Not bad for a snow mobile company.


I rode Victory a few year back, was nice and comfy. 
I`ve seen hard core Harley buffs greening side to side after a short ride on ducatis ( that if you have to sick to V-Twin concept. that is half weight and 7 time better weight to power ratio. not recliner on wheels like yours but you have to stay alert riding to stay alive. I`d probably fell asleep on a seat like that at pathetic speed it`s capable of. 
Now if you want to hear a symphony go listen to turboed Hayabusa or better yet try riding one
Now back on topic, we derailed it long enough...
UcD 180 module is shorter than my thumb.


----------



## Babs

So hypex modules considered among the better c-D types these days for fidelity?


----------



## Victor_inox

Babs said:


> So hypex modules considered among the better c-D types these days for fidelity?


One pictured on my hand actually has balanced input, biketronics doesn`t. 
That much I can tell you now. Internet reviews raving..... but they always raving...


----------



## claydo

Werd victor....always raving. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion of the sound this thing puts out. I've been contemplating replacing my huge old school amps with some of these for months now..........the life time warranty.....sheesh....that's confidence in your product.


----------



## Babs

Lifetime? k... That's hard to argue with, regardless the board in it.

Victor, agree there's certainly value in diff-bal inputs. Looking forward to assessment.


----------



## Victor_inox

claydo said:


> Werd victor....always raving. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion of the sound this thing puts out. I've been contemplating replacing my huge old school amps with some of these for months now..........the life time warranty.....sheesh....that's confidence in your product.


 Found one not raving Genesis GR 180 - Hypex-equipped digital power amplifier - [English]
"


----------



## claydo

He definitely found some nits to pick, but overall still seems positive on the sounds from the modules. Hmmm, I may break down and order yet.........lol. Still looking forward to what you think victor.....


Aaaaaand....still wish they offered a sub amp solution.....would love a matching rack of tiny amps....


----------



## Victor_inox

claydo said:


> He definitely found some nits to pick, but overall still seems positive on the sounds from the modules. Hmmm, I may break down and order yet.........lol. Still looking forward to what you think victor.....
> 
> 
> Aaaaaand....still wish they offered a sub amp solution.....would love a matching rack of tiny amps....


His main grange was about rated power he questioned. 
Unless Harley crowd will demand Subs on their rides i don`t see it happening.
oneof these Module Amplificateur Hypex UCD400HG 400W | eBay
one of that 12V to 45V 500W Power Supply Board for Amplifier in Car 3300uF 50V 4 | eBay 
small case to fit them both and you almost good to go.


----------



## KillerBox

Any new developments on the Biketronics Amps?

1.) Gain controls?
2.) A higher powered sub amp?
3.) Can you still get them with a 10 hz cutt off?

I am trying to design a new system for my car and I like the idea of high powered efficient reliable amps without the complex wiring. But, I would like a minimum of 600 watts sub amp.

What really attracts me to these amps are the small size and the confidence the manufacture has in his product with a lifetime warranty. I am tired of everything made today breaking!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

KillerBox said:


> Any new developments on the Biketronics Amps?
> 
> 1.) Gain controls?
> 2.) A higher powered sub amp?
> 3.) Can you still get them with a 10 hz cutt off?
> 
> I am trying to design a new system for my car and I like the idea of high powered efficient reliable amps without the complex wiring. But, I would like a minimum of 600 watts sub amp.
> 
> What really attracts me to these amps are the small size and the confidence the manufacture has in his product with a lifetime warranty. I am tired of everything made today breaking!


1. Possibly though not sure about ETA for a model with gains.
2. Yes, I am getting my hands on a test mule very soon, stay tuned!
3. Yes, 10hz cutoff is now always available as an option.


----------



## Victor_inox

Why would anyone need gains? Habit? Everyone use DSP these days- no gain nor build in filters needed for sub amp. 
I`m seriously wondering why? 
higher power sub amp? how high?
Hypex makes 700W modules but that will require new power supply. 
So is 400W modules. 
Why biketronics decided to use OEM modules without HxR is what I`d love to know.
I only use their HG modules with HxR. Sounds phenomenal with them.


----------



## cajunner

welcome back, Victor.


----------



## Victor_inox

cajunner said:


> welcome back, Victor.


miss me?


----------



## cajunner

Victor_inox said:


> miss me?


sure, I even looked around for where you were banned and why but came up short.

nobody made a fuss over it and someone who was in contact with you said you'd be back shortly, so I didn't give it much more thought. 

what was that, 2 month stretch?


----------



## Victor_inox

cajunner said:


> sure, I even looked around for where you were banned and why but came up short.
> 
> nobody made a fuss over it and someone who was in contact with you said you'd be back shortly, so I didn't give it much more thought.
> 
> what was that, 2 month stretch?


1 month.


----------



## Onyx1136

Is the top plate on these BT amplifiers completely removeable? And is it aluminum? The etched logo looks cheesy. I'm thinking grind it clean and do some custom machining on the router table. Or maybe even replace it with another aluminum plate that is a little thicker. Maybe something that matches the machining in the side of the case.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Victor_inox said:


> Why would anyone need gains? Habit? Everyone use DSP these days- no gain nor build in filters needed for sub amp.
> I`m seriously wondering why?
> higher power sub amp? how high?
> Hypex makes 700W modules but that will require new power supply.
> So is 400W modules.
> Why biketronics decided to use OEM modules without HxR is what I`d love to know.
> I only use their HG modules with HxR. Sounds phenomenal with them.


I agree with your point on gains 100%. My 4180 matches my P99RS perfectly and I've never had a need to adjust between the two. In fact, it is rather nice not needing to worry about it. The amp took 15 minutes to install and I was almost immediately enjoying my music. It has remained that way for 4 months and I haven't touched it since.

This new sub amp is supposedly not too much different from a regular 2180. Slightly bigger UcD modules and beefier power supply to make [email protected] for my pair of SI BM MKIV subs. The 2180 could have powered them just fine but BT wants to see what they can do to squeeze out as much extra power as possible while using as much existing design as possible.

From what I understand, most manufacturers use the OEM modules for a number of OEM supply chain reasons while higher end home audio boutique brands use the HG hobbyist boards (Genesis, Channel Islands, etc). BT does have a high end proaudio amp line, Vivid, which includes a powerhouse two channel model with dual UcD700HG modules: VR2700 Rack Amp - Vivid Amplifiers

I would LOVE to run a VR2700 on my living room line arrays but no budget for toys like that right now...maybe next year


----------



## Victor_inox

Onyx1136 said:


> Is the top plate on these BT amplifiers completely removeable? And is it aluminum? The etched logo looks cheesy. I'm thinking grind it clean and do some custom machining on the router table. Or maybe even replace it with another aluminum plate that is a little thicker. Maybe something that matches the machining in the side of the case.


Yes, it`s just an aluminum square I think 1/8" thick with rounded corners, easily replaceable. I agree on cheesiness of that logo but hey it`s build for Harley crowd, can`t get more cheesier that that. 
I`d think clean anodized finish would be perfect with sticker for those who want it. 
in any case logo should not put anyone down, amp itself is well made and sounds great. 
Can be better but at additional cost.


----------



## rton20s

Architect7 said:


> This new sub amp is supposedly not too much different from a regular 2180. Slightly bigger UcD modules and beefier power supply to make [email protected] for my pair of SI BM MKIV subs. The 2180 could have powered them just fine but BT wants to see what they can do to squeeze out as much extra power as possible while using as much existing design as possible.


I know that bridging has been discussed in the past, but any chance the new high power two channel modules will be bridgeable? I know BT is focused on the HD crowd, but having a bridgeable powerful 2 channel for use with a single sub (or multiples) would be ideal in my book. I'm currently using a powerful two channel bridged on my sub as is. 

I'd really love to able to make use of these BT amps for my wife's car. To do so, bridgeable amps would be my preference.


----------



## Audiophilefred

600-700 watts bridged @ 4 ohm would be awesome for a small sub amp


----------



## Victor_inox

Hypex modules internally Bridged, can't be bridged no more.
Can be paralell for twice current though. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


----------



## 2010hummerguy

rton20s said:


> I know that bridging has been discussed in the past, but any chance the new high power two channel modules will be bridgeable? I know BT is focused on the HD crowd, but having a bridgeable powerful 2 channel for use with a single sub (or multiples) would be ideal in my book. I'm currently using a powerful two channel bridged on my sub as is.
> 
> I'd really love to able to make use of these BT amps for my wife's car. To do so, bridgeable amps would be my preference.


No but a single UcD700 module would solve this and the revised PSU should support it just fine. Let me ask the BT folks if this is in the plans...on paper, it should be very easy for them to do so.


----------



## Victor_inox

Everything is possible but not everything is profitable. 
UcD700 will require completely different PSU as it use -+ 75-95V power rails unlike -+45V rails for UcD 180. That power supply will require new design, much bigger case and absolutely not marketable to bikers. UcD400 will work with 4180 power supply but not at full potential as stock PSU in 4180 is at it full capacity with 4 UsD180oem.
It`s never hurt to ask though, perhaps i`m not correct about marketability.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Yeah I believe there is a big 700 OEM module though not sure of the specs...Mike/[email protected] will know for sure


----------



## Treesive

If they come out with a dual 400 or a 700 you can put me down for one the day it is available

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## piyush7243

Me too

Sent from my X9076 using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

Treesive said:


> If they come out with a dual 400 or a 700 you can put me down for one the day it is available
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk





piyush7243 said:


> Me too
> 
> Sent from my X9076 using Tapatalk


 I can make that right now.
2x400 or 2x700 would be a bit bigger then 2180 or 4180.


----------



## piyush7243

Victor_inox said:


> I can make that right now.
> 2x400 or 2x700 would be a bit bigger then 2180 or 4180.


You have the modules n power supply with you? 

Sent from my X9076 using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox

piyush7243 said:


> You have the modules n power supply with you?
> 
> Sent from my X9076 using Tapatalk


 I do
Let`s keep it out of this thread if you want to know more,PM for further questions.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Just updated my build thread and I'll cross post here too because I am so excited:

It's been a while but here is an exciting update, arrived today from my friends at Biketronics:

Looks like a regular BT2180:









But wait!









Installing very soon, this is a prototype subwoofer amp with two UcD250LPOEM modules which share a lot revisions with the high-end Ncore modules. It also has some secret PSU upgrades to ensure high power output through the entire subwoofer frequency band. Hypex does not have a 2ohm power rating for these modules so we will see if each can drive an SI BM MKIV with good output. The Ncores double output at 2ohms but further testing will give me a better idea for how they perform.

Stay tuned!


----------



## etroze

Dude that's sweet, can't wait to hear what you think.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## TrickyRicky

Looking at the datasheet and it appears that they do 180watts @ 4 ohm and 100watts at 8ohms. They might do 250 watts at 2ohm but that would be working the little thing to it's limits.


----------



## Audiophilefred

Can't wait to see the results , I wonder what it would do at 4 ohms to power my dyn 1200


----------



## Victor_inox

Architect7 said:


> Just updated my build thread and I'll cross post here too because I am so excited:
> 
> It's been a while but here is an exciting update, arrived today from my friends at Biketronics:
> 
> Looks like a regular BT2180:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Installing very soon, this is a prototype subwoofer amp with two UcD250LPOEM modules which share a lot revisions with the high-end Ncore modules. It also has some secret PSU upgrades to ensure high power output through the entire subwoofer frequency band. Hypex does not have a 2ohm power rating for these modules so we will see if each can drive an SI BM MKIV with good output. The Ncores double output at 2ohms but further testing will give me a better idea for how they perform.
> 
> Stay tuned!



So did they put two of them in parallel? Or it`s 2 ch amplifier?
Sorry it`s unclear from your post.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

TrickyRicky said:


> Looking at the datasheet and it appears that they do 180watts @ 4 ohm and 100watts at 8ohms. They might do 250 watts at 2ohm but that would be working the little thing to it's limits.


I think you are looking at the 180 datasheet. This is the UcD250LPOEM, [email protected] and [email protected] with a lot of Ncore similarities which do better at 2ohms than most other standard UcD modules:

http://www.hypex.nl/docs/UcD250LPOEM_datasheet.pdf



Victor_inox said:


> So did they put two of them in parallel? Or it`s 2 ch amplifier?
> Sorry it`s unclear from your post.


Ah, my bad! Right now it is a 2ch, one channel per each of my two SI BM MKIV subs. Similar to other UcD amps, I don't think there are big gains from bridging so replacing these with a 400 or 700 module is probably the route to go for a monoblock and/or more power per channel. This won't win any clamping contests but it is 1/3 the size of my Vibe mono sub amp, space behind the back seat of my truck is crazy tight so a smaller footprint and an extra channel will be great. Plus the vibe amp's cooling fan has started adding electrical noise like alt whine, it is SUPER annoying.


----------



## piyush7243

Architect7 said:


> Just updated my build thread and I'll cross post here too because I am so excited:
> 
> 
> Installing very soon, this is a prototype subwoofer amp with two UcD250LPOEM modules which share a lot revisions with the high-end Ncore modules. It also has some secret PSU upgrades to ensure high power output through the entire subwoofer frequency band. Hypex does not have a 2ohm power rating for these modules so we will see if each can drive an SI BM MKIV with good output. The Ncores double output at 2ohms but further testing will give me a better idea for how they perform.
> 
> Stay tuned!


Super cool stuff, waiting for you to test them. Might be ordering more soon 

Soon going to write a detailed review of the Amp, as i have been using them for around 8-10 months and absolutely love them


----------



## Eglider05

I'm currently running a BT4180 (stole it out of my Harley). I sent it in and had the 45 Htz filters removed from the rear channels. Currently running HAT Clarus components off the front channels and (2) 10" DVC Image Dynamics subs @ 2 ohms off the rear channels. It does a more than adequate job for my purposes.

Rick


----------



## claydo

Updates? C'mon architect, keep us informed, lol.....

I think a 250×2, and a 400×2, or a 700×1 would have me purchasing a whole set of these things.......along with the 180×4 of course.....


----------



## jamesjones

Yeah the lack of a sub amp option is the only reason I did t go with these on my VW build. I like the super efficiency of the 4180 for the VW's weak alternator.


----------



## claydo

Werd.....the size is a bonus as well. I unfortunately need a sub as well as a more powerful midbass option. If they make it, I will be checking em out.


----------



## neo_x

Hi all,
I'm from Italy and very interested, any news on new products?


----------



## jamesjones

Funny you bumped this old thread I've been researching these amps to use in my next build.

The issue I'm trying to wrap my brain around is getting proper wiring into their tiny terminals.


----------



## piyush7243

jamesjones said:


> Funny you bumped this old thread I've been researching these amps to use in my next build.
> 
> The issue I'm trying to wrap my brain around is getting proper wiring into their tiny terminals.


It comes with power n ground connections adaptor. You can use 14/16 ga for speaker connections

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 2010hummerguy

neo_x said:


> Hi all,
> I'm from Italy and very interested, any news on new products?


Hi there, the 2250 is now generally available: BT2250 - 250W RMS X 2 - Biketronics Inc

Still rocking both my 4180 and 2250 and loving both of them.



piyush7243 said:


> It comes with power n ground connections adaptor. You can use 14/16 ga for speaker connections
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Hey man, hope you've been well!


----------



## dcfis

So these are still working well and people still like them? Wished I had come across them sooner.

For car audio purposes is there a difference between the 4180 and 4180.14?


----------



## piyush7243

Architect7 said:


> Hi there, the 2250 is now generally available: BT2250 - 250W RMS X 2 - Biketronics Inc
> 
> Still rocking both my 4180 and 2250 and loving both of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey man, hope you've been well!


Hey bro. All good. I am the current dealer for them in India. Quality wise they rock. Very clean. Very detailed. How are you btw?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 2010hummerguy

dcfis said:


> So these are still working well and people still like them? Wished I had come across them sooner.
> 
> For car audio purposes is there a difference between the 4180 and 4180.14?


Yep, this is the longest I've had the same amps (or any gear) in a single install and no desire to change it out. They just work every day all day and sound incredible while being absolutely tiny. You'll want the 4180 for car installs. The .14 versions are just for newer Harleys.



piyush7243 said:


> Hey bro. All good. I am the current dealer for them in India. Quality wise they rock. Very clean. Very detailed. How are you btw?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


That's awesome!!! So cool that BT amps have reached that far. I'm doing well, kids and the corporate job consume all of my time now and I haven't had any time for audio in a while. But we're now shopping for a new vehicle so I might have to get back into car audio soon. Promised myself I wouldn't touch the system in whatever we get, but that probably won't last long.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

I finally gave in. The build quality of this amp is something you can’t quite behold until you are actually holding one in your hand. 

The unit has a heft that suggests the dense power package (smaller than an iPad Mini in terms of length and width) will not disappoint.

I will tinker around with it in June but I have a feeling this will replace a PDX F4 (2nd gen) without any regrets.

Here are some internal gut pics of the custom power supply and Hypex UCD180OEM modules for anybody that’s interested:


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Previous pics disappeared for some reason. Reattached them to this post.


----------



## dcfis

So this is hypex?


----------



## dcfis

Also, how in the world does it make that power with those little bitty wires? Also is there a gain?


----------



## piyush7243

No gains


dcfis said:


> Also, how in the world does it make that power with those little bitty wires? Also is there a gain?


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

From what I understand, there is some type of input DSP that is able to accept a range of voltages and adapt appropriately without the need for a signal gain pot.

I plan on using with a DSP so I can controll signal gains from there if need be.

When I spoke with Mike at Biketronics he was mentioning they can modify the input gain to a user preference. Simillare to how they can bring the stock 45hz HP filter down to as low as 10 hz.

Reason I was told for the small wire guages is due to the extremely high efficiency near 90%.


----------



## dcfis

Been talking to Mike through email and he is real helpful but Im sure he doesnt have time to answer all these questions and requests from one rando guy. How did yall order/Buy the Car model with the mounting feet and thick gauge wire? Anyone know the price of the BT250.4? Its got individual gains that I dont prefer. I like the idea of gainless. Was originally going to get the BT180.4 which I think is plenty.


----------



## Bizarroterl

dcfis said:


> Been talking to Mike through email and he is real helpful but Im sure he doesnt have time to answer all these questions and requests from one rando guy. How did yall order/Buy the Car model with the mounting feet and thick gauge wire? Anyone know the price of the BT250.4? Its got individual gains that I dont prefer. I like the idea of gainless. Was originally going to get the BT180.4 which I think is plenty.



???? I don't see these at biketronics.com. Can you provide a link?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

There is no link for it. You’ll have to call in and try to speak to Mike for the 4x250. Kind of considered as a custom order until more demand for it is made for it. Mike also showed me a 6x180 prototype with gain pots for each pair of channels.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Ohhhhhh man, cat's out of the bag, that 6x180 is SWEET! Trying my best to not pick one up for a 3 way front stage upgrade ahhhhhhhhhhhh...


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Architect7 said:


> Ohhhhhh man, cat's out of the bag, that 6x180 is SWEET! Trying my best to not pick one up for a 3 way front stage upgrade ahhhhhhhhhhhh...


Do it. Everyone has a 3-way front stage now. You're missing out.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

The BT4250

Class leading Class D technology 

4 x 250 watts in the same footprint as the tiny BT4180

4 Individual channel gain knobs.

It’s not on their website but it is available to purchase if you call in.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Depending on how well you can haggle. Price is $800-$899.

I’m curious to know how this would do against the MMATs HiFi 4250D


----------



## seafish

Bnlcmbcar said:


> The BT4250
> 
> Class leading Class D technology
> 
> 4 x 250 watts in the same footprint as the tiny BT4180
> 
> 4 Individual channel gain knobs.
> 
> It’s not on their website but it is available to purchase if you call in.


That is simply amazing-- just how big (I mean tiny!!) is that amp??


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

seafish said:


> That is simply amazing-- just how big (I mean tiny!!) is that amp??


7"x5"x1.8"!! Very impressive.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Didn’t get any pricing on the BT6180

But one can get 6 x 180 watts in a footprint of:

8-3/16”w X 7”d X 1.75”h (depth not including power connector.)

Attached is a pic of the prototype. Cool stuff!


----------



## rton20s

I'd really love to try some of the Biketronics stuff one day. I really like what they do. Are the channels bridgeable on either of these new models? 

As far as a comparison to the MMATS stuff, based on what I have heard from some of their dealers regarding reliability, I'd take Biketronics over MMATS any day. I know there are several people on here that use they're SQ amps and like them, but questionable reliability isn't a risk I want to take.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Plus Biketronics has the lifetime warranty!


----------



## dcfis

Are the new 250.4 and 180.6 still using hypex modules? What is the new spec of channel 5/6?


----------



## Onyx1136

rton20s said:


> I'd really love to try some of the Biketronics stuff one day. I really like what they do. Are the channels bridgeable on either of these new models?
> 
> As far as a comparison to the MMATS stuff, based on what I have heard from some of their dealers regarding reliability, I'd take Biketronics over MMATS any day. I know there are several people on here that use they're SQ amps and like them, but questionable reliability isn't a risk I want to take.


I’m not 100% on this, but I’m fairly sure those Hypex amplifiers they use are internally bridged, which prevents the finished amplifier from being bridged any further.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Are the new 250.4 and 180.6 still using hypex modules? What is the new spec of channel 5/6?


Yes they are still using Hypex UcD modules. The BT6180 is 6 x 180 watts. If you reach Mike at Biketronics he is willing to create whatever you fancy when it’s not biking season (not sure when that is exactly..summer?)

All wattages are listed in 4 ohms but Hypex is extremely stable at 2 ohms. The rub is that there is literally no literature on what Hypex UcD modules put out at 2 ohms! Or at least I can’t find it. The consensus amongst the home audio crowd is that power increases but not by double per se.

I’ve seen an unofficial 220 watts reported for the UcD180 module at 2 ohms on a Harley Davidson forum and 330 watts or ~400 watts reported for the UcD250 module at 2 ohms.

Maybe Architect7 can chime in? I believe he is powering 2 SI BM mk IV Subs at 2 ohms with a BT2250.

Bridging can be done internally but from what I keep reading there is no point in doing so due to current demand when bridged? Or unless you want to run at 8 ohms. People who understand the tech better are always suggesting to just increase in module power versus trying to bridge.

Either way I don’t think the amps are hurting for power. Biketronics posted a pic on their Facebook page showing the newer BT4250 measuring at 330 watts per channel at 4 ohms!


----------



## dcfis

So the 180 can be configured to do rated power into 8 ohms?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> So the 180 can be configured to do rated power into 8 ohms?


Something like it. But I’m not 100% either.

I do know at one point in 2016 Biketronics was selling a limited run BT2360 which was a BT4180 bridged to offer 2 x 360 at 8 ohms.

That and this is from the Hypex site:

Q: I need double the power in an 8Ohm load than a UcD amplifier can produce. Is there some way I can bridge two, for example, UcD400’s?

A: You need to drive one of the modules 180 degrees out of phase by simply swapping the negative and positive input signal wires. Tie the loudspeaker between both positive loudspeaker outputs of the amplifiers and connect a 100n/200V capacitor across the loudspeaker terminals at the amplifiers’ side. This set-up is most applicable for 8 Ohm loads since each amplifier ‘sees’ 4 Ohms with an 8 Ohm load attached. A 4 Ohm load might trigger the current protection leaving you with not nearly as much power as you might have expected.


----------



## Holmz

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Something like it. But I’m not 100% either.
> 
> I do know at one point in 2016 Biketronics was selling a limited run BT2360 which was a BT4180 bridged to offer 2 x 360 at 8 ohms.
> 
> That and this is from the Hypex site:
> 
> Q: I need double the power in an 8Ohm load than a UcD amplifier can produce. Is there some way I can bridge two, for example, UcD400’s?
> 
> A: You need to drive one of the modules 180 degrees out of phase by simply swapping the negative and positive input signal wires. Tie the loudspeaker between both positive loudspeaker outputs of the amplifiers and connect a 100n/200V capacitor across the loudspeaker terminals at the amplifiers’ side. This set-up is most applicable for 8 Ohm loads since each amplifier ‘sees’ 4 Ohms with an 8 Ohm load attached. A 4 Ohm load might trigger the current protection leaving you with not nearly as much power as you might have expected.


I cannot imagine "needing" 360W... that is ~1\2 horsepower per channel.
Assumng it makes sense to rate power in HP.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Confirmed that the BT4250 is the same chassis footprint as the BT4180.

Mike at Biketronics shared a couple more pics! The power connecter has been upgraded from XT60 to XT90 connector able to handle up to 100 amps.

“Here are some pictures of the BT4250. The APx measurement shown is using the AP's optimizer where it finds the drive level for a given distortion (THD+N) - in this case 1%. Uses the OEM UcD 250's, has a larger transformer, off-module Vdr supply, per-channel gain control all in a very small footprint.”

No firm date but he did tell me they are working on car specific amps. Maybe (keyword maybe) something available end of Q4 2018 (Xmas time) or Q1 2019. 

When it comes closer to fruition I’m sure he will be asking peeps here for some input.


----------



## dcfis

He can ask me or respond to my email


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> So the 180 can be configured to do rated power into 8 ohms?


The biketronics amps use Hypex UCD OEM LP units. The normal DIY UCD180HG units are rated at 120 watts @ 8 ohms (per Hypex themselves). So I assume it should be something similare for the biketronics amp at 8 ohms.



dcfis said:


> He can ask me or respond to my email


It took me 2-3 emails and 2-3 calls leaving messages with Donna before I was able to get a single convo with him. Busy man. Biking season is nearly ending soon so his availability and time for a car orientated project is around the corner.

He’s working on several projects including guitar/bass amps using Hypex NCore modules.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Yes they are still using Hypex UcD modules. The BT6180 is 6 x 180 watts. If you reach Mike at Biketronics he is willing to create whatever you fancy when it’s not biking season (not sure when that is exactly..summer?)
> 
> All wattages are listed in 4 ohms but Hypex is extremely stable at 2 ohms. The rub is that there is literally no literature on what Hypex UcD modules put out at 2 ohms! Or at least I can’t find it. The consensus amongst the home audio crowd is that power increases but not by double per se.
> 
> I’ve seen an unofficial 220 watts reported for the UcD180 module at 2 ohms on a Harley Davidson forum and 330 watts or ~400 watts reported for the UcD250 module at 2 ohms.
> 
> Maybe Architect7 can chime in? I believe he is powering 2 SI BM mk IV Subs at 2 ohms with a BT2250.
> 
> Bridging can be done internally but from what I keep reading there is no point in doing so due to current demand when bridged? Or unless you want to run at 8 ohms. People who understand the tech better are always suggesting to just increase in module power versus trying to bridge.
> 
> Either way I don’t think the amps are hurting for power. Biketronics posted a pic on their Facebook page showing the newer BT4250 measuring at 330 watts per channel at 4 ohms!


Sorry I didn't see this message until now. UcD architecture approximately increases power 40% at 2 ohms and is still stable to 1 ohm, but power drops ~50% and heat creation increases. Mike was able to prove this on their Audio Precision analyzer which was nice because Hypex doesn't publish very much about 2 ohm performance. Optimal efficiency is 2-8ohms. Bridging is complicated too, and tends to affect performance because it doubles minimum impedances, so typically it is easier to change to a larger module (there are 500w and 700w modules, which would respectively yield 800w and 1000w+ into 2 ohms). These amps drive subs with ease; my Rythmik home sub is a 550w Hypex unit and my BT2250 powers subs in my truck, sometimes 8-10 hours straight when I'm on road trips or offroading. Their load invariance allows them to be agnostic to impedance curves which are especially extreme with subwoofers and ribbons tweeters. The sound is amazing 

I visited Mike at BT earlier this week and I was fortunate enough to see some of the new amps, including the 4250 and the 6180. A 6250 could be created with some tweaks to the power supplies and it would easily fit in the same chassis. Going larger than 250 modules would require a different chassis, but Mike shared with me that, with the right space, you could put together whatever combination is needed for a particular application. Factory car with 3 way front, rear fill, and 4 subs? Yep, just fab up a chassis that will accommodate 10-12 discrete channels with supporting power supplies. The user can choose between auto-gain or manual gain preamp sections too. Weird Bose vehicle with amps hidden everywhere? No problem, use multiple smaller chassis with smaller power supplies and modules, easily small enough to fit the OEM amp footprints.

I can try to field more questions if anyone has them. I absolutely love these amps; they have become my end game in any of my builds (trying to resist replacing the JBL system in my wife's Sequoia ).


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Mike is currently building me a custom BT4250 with no gain pots. 

It will probably be replacing my MMATs HiFi 4250D.

Biketronics’ Hypex UcD Class D vs MMATs IR based Class D. Both use self oscillating PWM but supposedly Hypex has a better filter design.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Mike is currently building me a custom BT4250 with no gain pots.
> 
> It will probably be replacing my MMATs HiFi 4250D.
> 
> Biketronics’ Hypex UcD Class D vs MMATs IR based Class D. Both use self oscillating PWM but supposedly Hypex has a better filter design.


That's probably the one I saw on Tuesday! They were making a new input shroud to clear your RCAs, right? If so, great choice of RCA, those are my FAVORITE!


----------



## Bizarroterl

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Mike is currently building me a custom BT4250 with no gain pots.
> 
> It will probably be replacing my MMATs HiFi 4250D.
> 
> Biketronics’ Hypex UcD Class D vs MMATs IR based Class D. Both use self oscillating PWM but supposedly Hypex has a better filter design.


Did you order it with the 10Hz cutoff or the 45Hz std?


----------



## dcfis

I would like a 250x6 with at least a 500 watt mono amp attached. Would even go for a 180x6 plus mono or even a 250x4 or 180x4 with mono amp attached.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Hypex UCD modules come in either 180, 250, 400, or 700 watts @ 4 ohms.

Then there is a mega 2000 watt module


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Bizarroterl said:


> Did you order it with the 10Hz cutoff or the 45Hz std?


Filterless so the 10hz.



Architect7 said:


> That's probably the one I saw on Tuesday! They were making a new input shroud to clear your RCAs, right? If so, great choice of RCA, those are my FAVORITE!


Yep that’s mine! He is milling out the RCA area a bit to allow me to use my thicker Esoteric Audio RCA’s


----------



## ckirocz28

Architect7 said:


> Their load invariance allows them to be agnostic to impedance curves which are especially extreme with subwoofers and ribbons tweeters. The sound is amazing


What exactly does this mean? I know you're not saying they violate ohms law, but please explain in layman's terms.


----------



## ckirocz28

Holmz said:


> I cannot imagine "needing" 360W... that is ~1\2 horsepower per channel.
> Assumng it makes sense to rate power in HP.


It does when you need to understand what it can physically do to your car. Example: 4 horsepower subwoofer system flexing parts of your car that really shouldn't flex.


----------



## Holmz

ckirocz28 said:


> It does when you need to understand what it can physically do to your car. Example: 4 horsepower subwoofer system flexing parts of your car that really shouldn't flex.


But I thought these were being used for the upper frequency speaker channels?
I could see it for a woofer, but not a MR or tweeter.


----------



## ckirocz28

Holmz said:


> But I thought these were being used for the upper frequency speaker channels?
> I could see it for a woofer, but not a MR or tweeter.


I'm speaking in general terms, rating in horsepower for subwoofer systems would help understand the physical effects on your car, I don't think it would be at all useful in understanding higher frequency systems.


----------



## Holmz

ckirocz28 said:


> I'm speaking in general terms, rating in horsepower for subwoofer systems would help understand the physical effects on your car, I don't think it would be at all useful in understanding higher frequency systems.


I agree that HP is nonsensical, which was the intent...

It seems like mo Ethan just a little bit of overkill, however for a large woofer I could understand that level of power... once we get to a MR or tweeter, then the only way to match that capability in a woofer or sub would be to have kW of amplifier power for the lower frequency speakers.


----------



## dcfis

What does it matter? Its a reasonable price and small size. Why not?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

ckirocz28 said:


> What exactly does this mean? I know you're not saying they violate ohms law, but please explain in layman's terms.


There are several different class D techs out there..

but Hypex UcD is the only one able to claim low, flat THD response, invariant of frequency and load. This allows for very linear power with a frequency response that is entirely load invariant.

There is sometimes a lift in the top octaves added by poor class-D topology creating an unwanted “too cold” sound. Hypex has ‘solved’ this with UcD, their amplifier topology remains linear through the entire range regardless of load impedance. It is just "neutral" what goes in is what comes out, clear and clean.

If you really want to dive in check out the Hypex white paper:
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_AES118BP_Simple_self-oscillating_class%20D_amplifier.pdf

The secret sauce is in the patented post-filter feedback design.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> What does it matter? Its a reasonable price and small size. Why not?


Also can’t forget what I can’t keep saying enough of... 

made in the USA with a lifetime warranty!


----------



## Holmz

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Also can’t forget what I can’t keep saying enough of...
> 
> made in the USA with a lifetime warranty!


That is a better reason than needing 300+ watts.
And they look well made from the distance of the internet.
So I would be interested in trying one on some woofers/mid-bass.


----------



## ckirocz28

Bnlcmbcar said:


> There are several different class D techs out there..
> 
> but Hypex UcD is the only one able to claim low, flat THD response, invariant of frequency and load. This allows for very linear power with a frequency response that is entirely load invariant.
> 
> There is sometimes a lift in the top octaves added by poor class-D topology creating an unwanted “too cold” sound. Hypex has ‘solved’ this with UcD, their amplifier topology remains linear through the entire range regardless of load impedance. It is just "neutral" what goes in is what comes out, clear and clean.
> 
> If you really want to dive in check out the Hypex white paper:
> https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_AES118BP_Simple_self-oscillating_class D_amplifier.pdf
> 
> The secret sauce is in the patented post-filter feedback design.


Thanks, exactly the info I needed to understand the frequency agnostic statement.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Project euphōnos

BT4250
RCA area opened up to allow larger RCA’s
XT90 power connector
8 gauge fused wire 
40 amp fuse

Individual channel gain pots input stage has been forgone in the name of SQ to have a more direct and pure signal path. As a starting point I had Mike set the input voltage to 4 volts for the amp to be at “full tilt before clipping”. I will be using with a Helix DSP Pro that has 8v preouts (not specified if this is 8volt rms?). Mike is able to adjust the input voltage on the amps if you choose no gain pot stage. 

XT90 connector is rated for 90-100 amps. The fused 8 gauge wire the amp came with is fused at 40 amps.

I put together a graphic that I asked Mike if he was able to laser in. In homage to the UcD modules, is the hypex electronics wave graphic. Then in similar line of thought as Biketronics’ allusion to ancient Greek mythology with its “Titan” Power reference, I put the Ancient Greek word εὔφωνος or euphōnos, meaning "well-sounding" or "sweet-voiced".


----------



## 2010hummerguy

That is awesome! And funny since it will do more like 1200-1600wrms at 2ohms, very underrated. Can’t wait to hear how you like it.


----------



## bbfoto

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Project euphōnos
> 
> BT4250
> RCA area opened up to allow larger RCA’s
> XT90 power connector
> 8 gauge fused wire
> 40 amp fuse


NICE!

I think I need one or two of these in my life! What was the turnaround time for this?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

bbfoto said:


> NICE!
> 
> I think I need one or two of these in my life! What was the turnaround time for this?


About 2 weeks. But most of that was my doing. Instead of the yellow color that is standard by the connector plate, I requested a plain black plate. Slight delay in when he was sending out new plates out to be anodized to fulfill this request.

For couple days, I was out of town and not unable to provide the exact RCA measurements I wanted fulfilled which caused a delay. The RCA’s are physically in the same place but the area around them has been milled out to a larger opening.

*The standard stock RCA opening can accept most RCA’s out there. I was just being uber picky and wanted to utilize some Audio Esoteric E7 home audio RCA’s with bulky cosmetic RCA heads. All other RCA’s I tried fit fine (Stinger, Streetwires, blue jeans cable).

I also have a BT4180. The actual rca connectors are a tad bit closer to each other in the BT4180 model. Even if the area around them is milled out, there is just barely not enough clearance side-to-side after I line up the center post on adjacent positions for my bulky RCA heads. I attached pics of my unmodified BT4180. 

I wasn’t about to burden Mike with redesigning his circuit/product on the account of my RCA desires. This will be easily remedied by a female to male rca adapter, or just simply use another RCA cable.

Then for the graphic I put together, Mike reached out to Hypex for permission to use the wave graphic which was another slight delay.



Architect7 said:


> That is awesome! And funny since it will do more like 1200-1600wrms at 2ohms, very underrated. Can’t wait to hear how you like it.


No doubts about it. The linear power and clarity my BT4180 provided was already unreal to grasp. My build is a slow progress project and still have some work to do in my sedan trunk for a stealth false floor setup but I hope to have this amp singing before Thanksgiving.


----------



## bbfoto

Thanks for the detailed info and pics! 

And yeah, I love those EA E7 RCA's as well. 

For the system I'm currently working on, I would probably need one of the BT4250 and one or two of the BT4180 as well.

I guess these are made to be placed inside a fairing or in enclosed saddlebags on a HD, but do you think they'd have any problems heatwise buried under a rear quarter trim panel or in the sealed front boot of a Porsche 911?

Would love to have these included in the next high-end "SQ Amplifier Shootout".


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

bbfoto said:


> Thanks for the detailed info and pics!
> 
> And yeah, I love those EA E7 RCA's as well.
> 
> For the system I'm currently working on, I would probably need one of the BT4250 and one or two of the BT4180 as well.
> 
> I guess these are made to be placed inside a fairing or in enclosed saddlebags on a HD, but do you think they'd have any problems heatwise buried under the rear quarter trim panel or in the sealed front boot of a 911 Porsche?
> 
> Would love to have these included in the next high-end "SQ Amplifier Shootout".


These things are of solid build quality. Once you hold it in your hand and feel its mini heft you’ll understand. As you mentioned these amps are were physically designed to fit in bike fairings or saddle bags where they would experience long periods of exposure to heat/sun. I think they should do fine given their 90% efficiency. Plus they have active cooling via 2 internal fans. 

I too would like to see these in an amplifier shootout. Anybody in touch with Matt Hall? 

These aren’t using GaN Fet tech like the SounDigital amps but these amps are near the pinnacle of Class D topology in regards to PWM and feedback filter design. Up there with the MMATS HIFi series that are based off the Infineon IRAUDAMP4 Class D design.

Very few amplifiers disclose the details about their Class D circuits. Biketronics uses Hypex UcD and I like that Hypex is more transparent about their empirical approach towards providing audiophile grade sound via the class D topology. *haha might need an electrical engineering degree/education to decipher it all but it’s out there at least.


----------



## bbfoto

Again, THANKS for the info and quick response.

Yeah, I'm curious to see the performance when more GaN Fet based amps come out.

From what I know about the Hypex UcD modules, I've heard that quite a few big manufacturers of both high-end and mid-level active/powered studio monitors are using them.

And I just realized that Mike has created and is working on a BT6180, so that along with one of the new BT4250 amps would be perfect for my setup. :thumbsup:

I believe that you can reach Matt Hall via the web site or respective Facebook page Link at...

*Revelation Audio*


----------



## Bizarroterl

IDK about a 911, but I'm in the process of putting 2 BT4180s and one BT2250 in a C7 corvette along with a MS-8. It is tight but it'll all fit. The Biketronics amps are very compact.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Bizarroterl said:


> IDK about a 911, but I'm in the process of putting 2 BT4180s and one BT2250 in a C7 corvette along with a MS-8. It is tight but it'll all fit. The Biketronics amps are very compact.


I would LOVE to see details/pics of this build!


----------



## Bizarroterl

I'll try to put something together. I plan on doing some of the work this weekend.


----------



## rton20s

Regarding a new SQ amp shootout, I doubt that Matt Hall will be doing any more. I thought I saw him post somewhere that while he may do some additional equipment shootouts, that because of his association with Revelation he wouldn't be publishing any more amp shootouts. I could be wrong, and it certainly doesn't hurt to ask him.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

rton20s said:


> Regarding a new SQ amp shootout, I doubt that Matt Hall will be doing any more. I thought I saw him post somewhere that while he may do some additional equipment shootouts, that because of his association with Revelation he wouldn't be publishing any more amp shootouts. I could be wrong, and it certainly doesn't hurt to ask him.


Nooooooooooooooooooo!

Womps that’s a bummer


----------



## rton20s

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Nooooooooooooooooooo!
> 
> Womps that’s a bummer


Not a problem. 

If anyone wants to send me their ultra-rare, esoteric amplifiers, I will gladly hook them up to a cheap computer power supply, feed them low-quality music streams over a Radio Shack 3.5mm to RCA adapter and drive a couple PE Buyout mids sitting loose on a counter top. A full tiered ranking report scribbled on the back of of a political campaign flyer will be photographed with a potato and uploaded for all to review.

If anyone is interested, just shoot me a PM.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Ordered a couple more!

Here’s a pic of the 4x180 guts vs the 4x250 guts


----------



## tjframe

For what it's worth, for the last 3 years I have had two of the BT4180s running my front sound stage, and have had no issues whatsoever. 

They sound great, and the tiny size was perfect for my stealth install. 

One of the units I purchased used from a forum member, and one was new from the company.

Highly recommended!


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

View attachment 233851


bbfoto said:


> I guess these are made to be placed inside a fairing or in enclosed saddlebags on a HD, but do you think they'd have any problems heatwise buried under a rear quarter trim panel or in the sealed front boot of a Porsche 911?


Confirmed from Mike himself that the amps are very stable thermal wise due to the extremely high efficiency of the Hypex modules, it’s overbuilt power supply, and the two internal cooling fans.

They are stable to be stacked in the following configurations (pics attached).

SDS Velcro would be plenty strong to hold them together and even provide a tiny spacing.


----------



## dcfis

How are you mounting them? Got a4 channel to spare?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> How are you mounting them? Got a4 channel to spare?


I’ll be doing a write up/build log soon with all the details. 

No spares at the moment. I opted to stack 3 amps together for a mini 12 channel beast! 2 BT4180’s and 1 BT4250. This powers 3-way front stage, 2-way rear fill, and a center channel.

I’m stashing everything in Civic spare tire/donut well. Don’t judge the rats nest of cables.. it’s an ever evolving personal daily driver project with a lot going on: Helix DSP Pro 2, miniDSP DDRC 22, miniDSP DDRC24, 2 x iFi itube2 preamps, and a passive crossover for a 2-way center so far 

I also added Noctua external fans purely for peace of mind during the summer heat. Personal preference. Not really needed per Mike.

Stacked and mounted them using 3M SJ3551 400 Dual Lock strips. Which is more than enough in my scenario. My trunk is lined with MLV. The 3M product adheres like a champ. Similar to Resonix MLV compatible Velcro or SDS Velcro but the 3m Dual Lock is a firmer product which provides a desired gap for air flow between the bottoms of the stacked amps.

Specifically the 400 variant of the 3m Dual Lock provides the highest density of attachment points. A 400 to 400 attachment is a eerily strong attachment. I made the mistake of attaching 1 large 3”x2” piece to the Helix DSP Pro 2 on the middle of the unscrew-able bottom plate... I literally bent/warped the bottom plate before the 400/400 connection even budged when attempting to remove the DSP mounted to MLV. Smaller cut 1/2” to 1” square pieces in the corners of everything is a better solution so far.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Free-Shipping-3M-2-x2-6-1-3-6-10-20-30-150-SJ3551-400-Dual-Lock/323056440726?item=323056440726&var=512178216105&ppid=PPX000608&cnac=US&rsta=en_US(en_US)&cust=7HG58405T91060424&unptid=c8e80960-503b-11e9-94e8-441ea14e0a7c&cal=9e506ceae9cd6&calc=9e506ceae9cd6&calf=9e506ceae9cd6&unp_tpcid=email-receipt-auction-payment&page=main:email&pgrp=main:email&e=op&mchn=em&s=ci&mail=sys&pageci=097a8da0-d6a0-4f0e-a427-b23c38704ee4

But all this works phenomenal like I said for my scenario when adhering to MLV. It will also super grip to cleaned metal. I haven’t really tested its adhesion to wood. But 3m makes other Dual Lock products with different adhesions so there is still probably a solution. I’m constantly swapping parts haven’t had any securement issues with various equipment using this method of attachment in a daily driver for the past 3 years. Everything stays put through the potholes, speed bumps, abrupt brakes, etc.

I can’t find the pics but I think Biketronics can put screw mounts that protrude from each corner if you would prefer a mechanical attachment.


----------



## dcfis

Awesome, Though kinda sucks in my install I need it to screw in. Could work something out though. If you know or hear anyone selling for good price please let me know. Also any chance you talked to him about us car guys? I doubt he would care until the winter with all the bike stuff. I saw some harley forum guys stating they do a $150 off Christmas sale?


----------



## dcfis

Also have you ever heard him say that a 2*180 and 2*250 module amp could be done? That would be sick


----------



## SlvrDragon50

Bnlcmbcar said:


> I’ll be doing a write up/build log soon with all the details.
> 
> No spares at the moment. I opted to stack 3 amps together for a mini 12 channel beast! 2 BT4180’s and 1 BT4250. This powers 3-way front stage, 2-way rear fill, and a center channel.
> 
> I’m stashing everything in Civic spare tire/donut well. Don’t judge the rats nest of cables.. it’s an ever evolving personal daily driver project with a lot going on: Helix DSP Pro 2, miniDSP DDRC 22, miniDSP DDRC24, 2 x iFi itube2 preamps, and a passive crossover for a 2-way center so far
> 
> I also added Noctua external fans purely for peace of mind during the summer heat. Personal preference. Not really needed per Mike.
> 
> Stacked and mounted them using 3M SJ3551 400 Dual Lock strips. Which is more than enough in my scenario. My trunk is lined with MLV. The 3M product adheres like a champ. Similar to Resonix MLV compatible Velcro or SDS Velcro but the 3m Dual Lock is a firmer product which provides a desired gap for air flow between the bottoms of the stacked amps.
> 
> Specifically the 400 variant of the 3m Dual Lock provides the highest density of attachment points. A 400 to 400 attachment is a eerily strong attachment. I made the mistake of attaching 1 large 3”x2” piece to the Helix DSP Pro 2 on the middle of the unscrew-able bottom plate... I literally bent/warped the bottom plate before the 400/400 connection even budged when attempting to remove the DSP mounted to MLV. Smaller cut 1/2” to 1” square pieces in the corners of everything is a better solution so far.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Free-Shipping-3M-2-x2-6-1-3-6-10-20-30-150-SJ3551-400-Dual-Lock/323056440726?item=323056440726&var=512178216105&ppid=PPX000608&cnac=US&rsta=en_US(en_US)&cust=7HG58405T91060424&unptid=c8e80960-503b-11e9-94e8-441ea14e0a7c&cal=9e506ceae9cd6&calc=9e506ceae9cd6&calf=9e506ceae9cd6&unp_tpcid=email-receipt-auction-payment&page=main:email&pgrp=main:email&e=op&mchn=em&s=ci&mail=sys&pageci=097a8da0-d6a0-4f0e-a427-b23c38704ee4
> 
> But all this works phenomenal like I said for my scenario when adhering to MLV. It will also super grip to cleaned metal. I haven’t really tested its adhesion to wood. But 3m makes other Dual Lock products with different adhesions so there is still probably a solution. I’m constantly swapping parts haven’t had any securement issues with various equipment using this method of attachment in a daily driver for the past 3 years. Everything stays put through the potholes, speed bumps, abrupt brakes, etc.
> 
> I can’t find the pics but I think Biketronics can put screw mounts that protrude from each corner if you would prefer a mechanical attachment.


I can't even comprehend what's going on in your picture


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Also have you ever heard him say that a 2*180 and 2*250 module amp could be done? That would be sick


I’ve wondered about that as well. Something along the lines of swapping 2 of the 250 modules from a BT4250 for 2 of the 180 modules. The BT4250 power supply would be more than capable. This could bring the BT4250 price down by a little as well as provide the often desired staggered power setup for front stages.

May take a minute to get an answer but I’ll see what I can get out of him!



SlvrDragon50 said:


> I can't even comprehend what's going on in your picture


Yea it’s a lot. But there is a method to the madness. Give me a couple weeks more to work on it.. and I’ll tell the story of the source signal’s wonderful journey to amplification!


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Awesome, Though kinda sucks in my install I need it to screw in. Could work something out though.


I’m still searching for where I saw it but there is a pic floating somewhere. The Biketronics amps all have a screw in each corner on the bottom plate where attachment feet can be attached.

They can do it for you if you buy directly from Biketronics or you could fashion one from using 4 small/short black mending plates for each corner with a slightly longer screw to accommodate the plate thickness.


----------



## dcfis

Those would work well


----------



## dcfis

I picked one up on the Harley forum for a decent price, couldn't help it. Wondering if the puny power wires will be ok less than 6 inches to the block. Forgot about the mount feet problem. Will have to figure something there. 

Spoke to Mike and he is about ready to have the car specific biketronics ready for sale


----------



## DavidRam

dcfis said:


> I picked one up on the Harley forum for a decent price, couldn't help it. Wondering if the puny power wires will be ok less than 6 inches to the block. Forgot about the mount feet problem. Will have to figure something there.
> 
> Spoke to Mike and he is about ready to have the car specific biketronics ready for sale


Hmmmmmm, thanks for sharing that... Will they have the same power wires?


----------



## dcfis

No, they will use xt 60 or 90 quick connects with bigger gauge wire for more car audio specific wiring. Check post #253 on this thread for pics


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> I picked one up on the Harley forum for a decent price, couldn't help it. Wondering if the puny power wires will be ok less than 6 inches to the block. Forgot about the mount feet problem. Will have to figure something there.


The puny wires should hold up for 6 inches. I was initially running them 20 inches until the block with no issues.

Also heads up for when you do try it out.. if you have a faint noise floor, this can be remedied by sending it to mike to have the input voltage (gain) changed. They can increase the input voltage closer to ~4 volts instead of the 2-3 volts they tend to be set at by default.

I competed with these amps in my 1st competition event at MECA west-coast semi finals this year. With no EQ adjustments, just speaker placement, TA/phase adjustments, and DSP channel gains adjustments, I was able to snag 2nd place for modified class. 

Luck or not it’s a testament that these amps won’t degrade your sound quality as a class D option.


----------



## dcfis

Thank you, I'm worried about noise as i run a tube pre before it. Prolly should just send it in and get the xt90 input, xover gone and the input


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Thank you, I'm worried about noise as i run a tube pre before it. Prolly should just send it in and get the xt90 input, xover gone and the input


Don’t forget about the Deutsche Novello connectors. Makes the speaker wire situation a lot easier:










I’m running tubes with mine too. If you are still having noise after input gain adjustment it’s more then likely the tube stage introducing a noise floor.

Also for your mounting. I mentioned earlier about 3M Dual Lock...
Looks like Second Skin started offering the product. It will adhere to the amp and be a pain to remove. It will also adhere to cleaned metal very nicely. 

I had a period though where I wanted to mount the amps to a MDF amp rack. I didn’t quite trust the adhesion to wood/MDF so I actually lined the MDF rack with a layer of MLV and viola.. I had solid mounting surface for the 3M Dual Lock to adhere to. 

I’m not sure if what Second Skin offers is the 400/400 variant of 3M Dual Lock but that is the one you’ll want. Freakishly strong (more so than SDS/Resonix Velcro in some cases). It’s also more stable and secure as in no micro wobbles that can occur with Velcro products. Just some food for thought.

Nothing much to look at but I’ll attach some pics. It was literally my “drawing board” as I was deciding on gear. Amps/gear never budged during my daily driving activities as well as removing and placing the rack in and out of the trunk:

Back:









Front:









3M Dual Lock 400/400









Amps adhered to MLV on amp rack:









Attached tubes to amp via Dual Lock:









Sturdy amp rack that I removed and placed several times:


----------



## dcfis

Where did you buy your gold novello pins?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

They push in and ‘clip’ in very secure:

Amazon non gold:
Novello Connector Male Pins NIL-WHCM https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WPF9W2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_yEnZDbC01S3VC

Gold (where I bought mine):
https://www.electricalhub.com/deutsch-04602021631-0460-202-1631-pin-terminal?_vsrefdom=adwords&_vsrefdom=adwords&gclid=Cj0KCQjwt_nmBRD0ARIsAJYs6o3j98xvpmDYjNfUyg-OU6erUwk7cktr_DC83U1kV2fY-_5q7jThsjUaAhBaEALw_wcB

Or eBay:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283185236566


----------



## dcfis

Thanks, you are a saint


----------



## bbfoto

Anyone know when BikeTronics will have the car-specific amps ready to ship?

I'm in the market for another 4250 and 6180, but I'm curious what configurations the car-specific amps will be available in?




Bnlcmbcar said:


> They push in and ‘clip’ in very secure:
> 
> Amazon non gold:
> Novello Connector Male Pins NIL-WHCM https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WPF9W2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_yEnZDbC01S3VC
> 
> Gold (where I bought mine):
> https://www.electricalhub.com/deutsch-04602021631-0460-202-1631-pin-terminal?_vsrefdom=adwords&_vsrefdom=adwords&gclid=Cj0KCQjwt_nmBRD0ARIsAJYs6o3j98xvpmDYjNfUyg-OU6erUwk7cktr_DC83U1kV2fY-_5q7jThsjUaAhBaEALw_wcB
> 
> Or eBay:
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283185236566



Those Novello connectors are nice and streamlined. 

I think I might still prefer the small 15/30/45 amp Anderson Power Pole connectors, mainly because both ends are protected by the housing. They also keep a solid and consistent contact due to the spring-loaded interlocking system. They are still relatively small and you can connect the housings together into as many pairs or group as you need.



































Here's some more notes from a supplier:

https://powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpole-connectors-30amp-bonded


"The 15, 30 & 45 amp contacts all use the same housing. Therefore, they all connect to each other. The size of the flat contact area is actually the same for all contacts. The only difference between the 15, 30 & 45 amp contacts is the size of the receiving barrel that accepts the wire...

15 amp contacts are recommended for 20-16 gauge wire
30 amp contacts are recommended for 14-12 gauge wire
45 amp contacts are recommended for 10 gauge wire

- Powerpole connectors are both genderless and polarized connectors
- Powerpole connectors are genderless, meaning the supply and load connectors are the same. Since there are no male or female parts, all Powerpole connectors mate with themselves.

- Powerpole connectors become polarized when the red and black housings slide together via molded-in dovetails on the housings. Connections can be quickly made and remade sight-lessly or in the dark.

- Unassembled vs. Permanently Bonded:

Unassembled sets can be assembled in any configuration. As two housings slide together via molded-in dovetails, two half rounds align to form a channel that accepts a slotted roll pin. This prevents the housings from sliding apart. The roll pin is a compression fit and will not fall out in operation.

Powerwerx now offers Red/Black Powerpole sets that have been ultrasonically welded together which creates a permanent bond between the red and black housings. This can save assembly time, guarantee correct configuration, eliminate the need for a roll pin and enable the use of Powerpole accessories such as retaining clips or block-lok clamps." - Powerwerx

The Powerwerx Power Pole Crimper is The BOMB. Definitely worth the money if you think you'll be doing more than just a few of these types of connectors!

They also supply Round and Rectangular Panel Mounts...


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Yep, for speaker wire purposes the Novello connectors take up very little space on the amp enclosures!

Definitely agree with you on how awesome the Anderson Power pole connectors are. I use the the larger Power Pole 75 as my quick power disconnect for the BT4250 amp and the Power Pole 45 as my quick power disconnect for the BT4180 amps. Very convenient and secure!

Would be interesting though to have them as an option for speaker wire connectors. They just would take up more real estate on the amp enclosure than Novello terminals.

How are you liking the 6180?! 

I’m hoping down the line he’ll make a staggered version with:
4x180 and 2x250
:thinking2:


----------



## dcfis

Mike said he had one more 6180 proto.

What would y'all use those powerwerx connectors for? Don't see how it could be used for the speaker outputs


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> What would y'all use those powerwerx connectors for? Don't see how it could be used for the speaker outputs


I’m only using Power Pole connectors in my power cable runs:

BT4250:
XT90(power connection @ amp) —> OFC Cable —> Power Pole 75 (for quick disconnect point) —> OFC Cable —> Eyelet Stud (Connection @ power distro block)

BT4180:
XT60(power connection @ amp) —> OFC Cable —> Power Pole 45 (for quick disconnect point) —> OFC Cable —> Eyelet Stud (Connection @ power distro block)

But specifically for speaker wires, I have seen people incorporate Power Pole connectors or XT connectors in the speaker wire cable near the driver end of the cable as a quick disconnect option for the driver.

As far as the speaker outputs on the current Biketronics amps, the only option is tediously inserting bare speaker cable into the terminals or using the Novello connectors that the terminals were designed for. 

*note that the REMOTE turn on terminal is also a Novello terminal.

XT Connectors (+ and - for power or speaker signal) have a *soldered male and female connector* to plug into each other for quick disconnect:









Anderson Power Pole connectors (+ and - for power or speaker signal) have a *crimped universal connector* that is able to plug into itself for quick disconnect:


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

The Powerwerx products that bbfoto showed above are power distribution solutions for Power Pole connectors. There are several fused and unfused options to distribute power via Anderson connectors. 

In my build I use the RigRunner product (fused distribution) to feed protected 12v power to several lower current accessories/devices.


----------



## dcfis

Awesome thanks guys! My amp is back at mikes getting the car audio treatment. Increased input voltage, xover removed, xt power input and mount feet. This particular and will be mostly for mock up and checking out the ucd modules waiting on the ncore modules to be released, prolly test that too. It's nice because everything is the same chassis so mock up and switching out for testing is easy.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Awesome thanks guys! My amp is back at mikes getting the car audio treatment. Increased input voltage, xover removed, xt power input and mount feet. This particular and will be mostly for mock up and checking out the ucd modules waiting on the ncore modules to be released, prolly test that too. It's nice because everything is the same chassis so mock up and switching out for testing is easy.


Nice! Post some pics of the mount feet when you get it!


----------



## jimmyjames16

dcfis said:


> ...Spoke to Mike and he is about ready to have the car specific biketronics ready for sale


Has anyone spoken to Mike about the availability of their car Biketronics amps?


----------



## dcfis

Yes he has a few 4 Chan and one 6 channel ucd module. I got the impression the ncore wasnt done but being worked on. Didn't press on that.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Also looks like the sub amp model is ready. Saw this on their Facebook:


----------



## bbfoto

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Also looks like the sub amp model is ready. Saw this on their Facebook:


Absolutely PERFECT for my latest setup! Ordering one now! Thanks.


----------



## bbfoto

FYI, the new BT2700-2 shown above is $899. He does offer a 10% discount to Veterans, and H-D/DIY forum members. You must also remember that these are Made in U.S.A. and carry a LIFETIME Warranty. Tell me ANY other amplifier manufacturer who does that???



dcfis said:


> Yes he has a few 4 Chan and one 6 channel ucd module. I got the impression the ncore wasnt done but being worked on. Didn't press on that.


Mike currently has 2x500w nCore car audio amplifiers in stock and ready to be shipped.  I believe they are ~$1500 each, though, but of course, they are under-rated like all of his amps. Probably more like 600-650wpc in reality.  These amps are a slightly larger form factor because the modules themselves are larger than the UcD modules. Again, U.S.A. made and Lifetime Warranty.

There will be other nCore configurations available in the future, but he wouldn't say what configurations he is working on. I asked about multi-channel "staggered power" amplifiers, but he didn't seem interested, because in the end, it doesn't cost any more or save any space to use a lower-powered module for let's say, the tweeter channels.

By design, the nCore modules are "modular" in nature and could conceivably be swapped into several different configurations by switching the power supply(s) & individual modules within a "common" chassis...something like the new Zapco HDSP V processors with interchangeable ADC/DAC modules. So conceivably, an nCore amplifier that you already had installed could be changed to meet your needs if & when your setup changes. I don't know if he will make them like that, but it is possible to do so.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Mike will get back to me on the BT2700-2’s 4-ohm measurements. 

Tentatively, he thinks it's going to be in the 4-500 watt area @4 ohm because the amp is based on a 4x400 where they internally bridged two 400 watt 4-ohm optimized modules in parallel for big power at 2 ohms. The neat feature is that it's in the same box as a BT4180!


----------



## bbfoto

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Mike will get back to me on the BT2700-2’s 4-ohm measurements.
> 
> Tentatively, he thinks it's going to be in the 4-500 watt area @4 ohm because the amp is based on a 4x400 where they internally bridged two 400 watt 4-ohm optimized modules in parallel for big power at 2 ohms. The neat feature is that it's in the same box as a BT4180!


Forgot to mention that module/amp configuration above in my previous post regarding the BT-2700-2, so thanks for that! The 2-channels each @ 2-ohms configuration is perfect for my latest subwoofer setup, but the 4-ohm output would be great for single 4-ohm subs or a pair of beefy L/R midbass drivers. 

Oh, forgot to mention that for the new car-specific amps, the internal fans will be thermally-controlled with temperature sensors. The fans will still startup at full when first powered on for a start-up diagnostic check, but will then shut off until called upon by the thermo-switch.

Just wanted to mention that in case it is a potential deal-breaker for hatchback, truck, or SUV competition vehicles where the amp(s) are mounted in the main listening cabin or under a seat, etc. It shouldn't be an issue if they're mounted in an isolated trunk or boot.

In contrast, the fans remain running continuously on the previous and current "Bike" amps. But they are relatively quiet even when they are at full, but they are noticeable.

.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

bbfoto said:


> ...the 4-ohm output would be great for single 4-ohm subs or a pair of beefy L/R midbass drivers.


Hmmm.. like those Purifi Audio 6.5" PTT6.5W04-01A Midwoofers 

(Cool to see UCD inventor Bruno Putzeys name as a cofounder for Purifi)


----------



## bbfoto

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Hmmm.. like those Purifi Audio 6.5" PTT6.5W04-01A Midwoofers
> 
> (Cool to see UCD inventor Bruno Putzeys name as a cofounder for Purifi)


Fo' Sho'!

I found the Bruno Putzey involvement with Purifi _really_ interesting as well...and then forgot to post about it. :blush: 

There is just a chit-ton of crazy-good information to read and absorb in that Purifi midwoofer review on HiFi Compass. Everyone involved in that project and company are truly next-level...the crème de la crème! I'm looking forward to seeing the other products they release.  That 6.5" (7") midwoofer is just the beginning! 

And I would love to see their speaker tech combined with the ORA Sound "Graphene-Q" cone material, which is touted as having exponentially better physical properties than beryllium...i.e. extremely rigid + extremely lightweight, combined with excellent damping properties.

My ORA Graphene-Q headphones will be arriving in late December/early January...can't wait to hear them in the finalized production version. 

2020 is shaping up to be an AMAZING year for audio and listening bliss. But not so great for the retirement account, haha!


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

For anyone curious.. Mike got back to me about the 4ohm ratings for the BT2700-2. Looks like it puts out ~450 watts per channel @ 4ohms loads. 

This is mainly due to how the UCD modules handle current as there are two 400 watt 4-ohm UcD modules in parallel to produce the 700 watts @ 2ohm.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Also here are some pics of of the NCore 2x 500 watts @ 4ohm with a pretty much undetectable noise floor on Biketronic’s Audio Precision measurement rig:


----------



## jimmyjames16

Did he mention a pricetag for the NCore NC2500?


----------



## bbfoto

jimmyjames16 said:


> Did he mention a pricetag for the NCore NC2500?


Mike told me a few days ago that it was $1,500. :surprised:

I'm not sure how many will fly out the door at that price, but if he posts some measurements that confirm performance equal to or better than any of the current ultra high-end Class A, A/B, and Class D car audio amplifiers, then they might gain some ground. 

He's gonna need some no-frills, targeted marketing to get the ball rolling. The main advantages are the power/size ratio, efficiency, and low noise performance. Those are all huge advantages in my book. But people will really need to be confident that these will out-perform or at least equal the performance of the Genesis, Tru-Tech, Mosconi, Sinfoni, Zapco crowd, etc. 

I would even go as far as suggesting that he design a really good but small, separate tube preamp/front end for those that might want to add back in some of that sweet "harmonic" distortion and "warmth".


----------



## bbfoto

Bnlcmbcar said:


> For anyone curious.. Mike got back to me about the 4ohm ratings for the BT2700-2. Looks like it puts out ~450 watts per channel @ 4ohms loads.
> 
> This is mainly due to how the UCD modules handle current as there are two 400 watt 4-ohm UcD modules in parallel to produce the 700 watts @ 2ohm.


Yup, it'd be really nice for a pair of beefy 4-ohm midbass drivers as well as subwoofers.

Mine is being built as we speak. I'm looking forward to see how it performs, though I'm confident it'll be at least as good as the other BT-series amps I have, and will not leave me wanting more power for my application.


----------



## dcfis

bbfoto said:


> jimmyjames16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did he mention a pricetag for the NCore NC2500?
> 
> 
> 
> Mike told me a few days ago that it was $1,500.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how many will fly out the door at that price, but if he posts some measurements that confirm performance equal to or better than any of the current ultra high-end Class A, A/B, and Class D car audio amplifiers, then they might gain some ground.
> 
> He's gonna need some no-frills, targeted marketing to get the ball rolling. The main advantages are the power/size ratio, efficiency, and low noise performance. Those are all huge advantages in my book. But people will really need to be confident that these will out-perform or at least equal the performance of the Genesis, Tru-Tech, Mosconi, Sinfoni, Zapco crowd, etc.
> 
> I would even go as far as suggesting that he design a really good but small, separate tube preamp/front end for those that might want to add back in some of that sweet "harmonic" distortion and "warmth". <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Razz" class="inlineimg" />
Click to expand...

Are you my Long lost twin?


----------



## Babs

bbfoto said:


> Mike told me a few days ago that it was $1,500. :surprised:
> 
> I'm not sure how many will fly out the door at that price, but if he posts some measurements that confirm *performance equal to or better than any of the current ultra high-end Class A, A/B*, and Class D car audio amplifiers, then they might gain some ground.
> 
> He's gonna need some no-frills, targeted marketing to get the ball rolling. The main advantages are the power/size ratio, efficiency, and low noise performance. Those are all huge advantages in my book. But people will really need to be confident that these will out-perform or at least equal the performance of the Genesis, Tru-Tech, Mosconi, Sinfoni, Zapco crowd, etc.
> 
> I would even go as far as suggesting that he design a really good but small, separate tube preamp/front end for those that might want to add back in some of that sweet "harmonic" distortion and "warmth".


That would be quite a feat.. If anyone wanted to send me one to compare, I'd surely do an AB comparison (no pun intended) with a Z150.6LX Zapco on mids and/or tweets and/or midbass as well to put it to an "ear" test. I'm rooting for these little NCores so, it'd be fun.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

bbfoto said:


> Mike told me a few days ago that it was $1,500. :surprised:
> 
> I'm not sure how many will fly out the door at that price...



Don’t forget they accept PayPal Credit and Affirm to break down the payments lol


----------



## dcfis

Just got finished talking to Donna and they have one or two more ncores left out of the 5 made so far. She didn't know if there would be a medium power multi channel ncore though. I just don't need 700*2


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Just got finished talking to Donna and they have one or two more ncores left...


Take one of those out of the equation... I just purchased one!


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> She didn't know if there would be a medium power multi channel ncore though. I just don't need 700*2


Haha Headroom for days if using on tweeters/midrange/midbass drivers.

Kind of like Scot Buwalda using JL HD750.1 for every driver

Not sure which NCore module the Biketronics is using yet, I’m assuming it’s the NC500 oem module. The only other NCore module I see of similare footprint size at lower wattage is the NC100HF OEM module which is a 100 watt dedicated to upper frequencies more so geared towards playing 500hz and up.


----------



## piyush7243

Would love to see a model.with 2 500 watts and 2 100 watts module. Price would be astronomical though.

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## jimmyjames16

If Mike comes out with some NCORE 4 channel amps with about 150-200 watts per channel.. then I am ALL IN! 
I have my Modd'd Class A Soundstream Reference 604 going in soon and I would love to do a comparison especially on my Hybrid Audio Legatia set that have been sitting in storage for quite a long time..
From what I have seen and heard of the Ncore amps .. they can be some serious game changers


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

So looking further into it. I was incorrect about the 100HF module. That module is an extension module and is part of a NCore MP series that has a built in integrated switching power supply (for home use).

Unfortunately, Mike is constrained to what Hypex produces and offers for modules.

Biketronics so far has listened and responded in the capacity they can afford so far. In the beginning of this thread many users were asking for a sub option.

Now we have the UcD BT2700-2 (2 x 700w @ 2 ohm | 2 x 450w @ 4 ohm) and the NCore NC2500 (2 x 700w @ 4 ohm | 2 x 550 @ 2 ohm | 2 x 400 @ 8 ohm).

It’s important to remember that these amps are small and pretty much dense as can be. They can be placed close to each other or stacked. Just like the Hypex modules are modular so are the Biketronics amps in premise.

Between the options of:

UcD
2 x 180w
2 x 250w
4 x 180w
4 x 250w
6 x 180w
2 x 700w
NCore
2 x 500w

Users can install any combination of amps to power a wide variety of speaker setups in a similar footprint as if it were ONE amp enclosure in the first place.


*The 3 NCore modules most amenable to car amp adaption are: 

NC400 (consumer module with discrete input buffer):*










NC400 (Click for info)


*NC500 (bufferless OEM module):*










NC500 OEM (Click for info)

*NC2K (bufferless OEM module):*










NC2K OEM (Click for info)


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

So essentially lower wattage NCore offerings is not up to Mike @ Biketronics but more so Hypex and what modules they choose to produce for consumers/OEM.

Maybe it’s possible to port the NCore MP series over to a 12v automotive power supply but that takes resources on behalf of Biketronics. One thing to remember is that invested resources usually translates to a higher price tag for the consumer. 

The NC2500 can be used on any driver as long as your responsible and sensible with your DSP’s individual channel gain settings.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

UPS just delivered a welcomed package!

Top Plate/Heatsink bears the Vivid Amp logo (Mike’s NCore based Guitar amp company):


















2 internal Active cooling fans:









Peep at the NCore Modules from the airflow exhaust vents:









Bottom plate with mounting feet:









Connections for power and signal:









Under the hood:









NC500 OEM modules:


----------



## dgage

Wow. That’s nice!


----------



## dcfis

Dude that case is what they all should be


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

dcfis said:


> Dude that case is what they all should be


Agreed! Pretty cool design. I’ll measure it’s dimensions tomorrow but it is slightly larger than the BT UcD series.


----------



## piyush7243

Very nice. Actually they should use the same top plate/ logo in all the amps

Sent from my POCO F1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

The dimensions for NC2500 is:
8.125” x 5.5” x 2.125”

Confirmed from Mike the ratings of the amp adhere to the Hypex ratings of:

700w @ 4ohm
550w @ 2ohm
400w @ 8ohm
(per channel)

Bbfoto can chime in but like the BT2700-2 the NC2500 supports 12Awg speaker wire. It specifically had the more traditional Weidmuller Spring-Cage speaker terminals. So regular 12ga ferrules will work.

On the fuse rating he is simply suggesting the "smallest" rating to get the job done. Start at 40 amps and go up if need be.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Babs said:


> That would be quite a feat.. If anyone wanted to send me one to compare, I'd surely do an AB comparison (no pun intended) with a Z150.6LX Zapco on mids and/or tweets and/or midbass as well to put it to an "ear" test. I'm rooting for these little NCores so, it'd be fun.


Not sure I’m ready to share the NCore amp yet..

But I did just snag up this little bitty brute off eBay for a steal...

The B2180:
































































I’m going to swap out the stock fans for silent noctua fans and send to Biketronics to ensure everything is in tip top shape as well as have them perform input gain adjustment to ~4v.

So give me a couple weeks to a month.. I‘ll put together an easy connect kit and ship the mini punch out for you to demo (if your willing to pay the flat rate USPS).


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

rton20s said:


> If anyone wants to send me their ultra-rare, esoteric amplifiers, I will gladly hook them up...


Your next in line when Babs returns it.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Easy swap for the Noctua fans. Requires the removal of 6 enclosure screws and 4 Screws for the fans themselves.

The stock fan is 3 pin and the Noctua Fan is 3 pin as well, so no adapter is required. Just gently pull out the stock fan connectors and gently push in the Noctua fan connector onto the fan heading pins.

Stock fans are

*EverCool EC4010M12CA:*
Noise: 21 dB(A)
Airflow: 5.22 CFM
Power: 0.07A

Replacement fans are

*Noctua NF-A4x10 FLX:*
Noise: 17.4 dB(A)
Airflow: 8.2 CFM
Power: 0.05A

Stock fans:



















Noctua Fans:


















Time to send to Biketronics and soon we’ll have a forum demo amp


----------



## Babs

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Your next in line when Babs returns it.


I'm about half serious really.. If someone really wants to get on it and give them an AB test, I say go.


----------



## CrimsonCountry

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Easy swap for the Noctua fans. Requires the removal of 6 enclosure screws and 4 Screws for the fans themselves.
> 
> The stock fan is 3 pin and the Noctua Fan is 3 pin as well, so no adapter is required. Just gently pull out the stock fan connectors and gently push in the Noctua fan connector onto the fan heading pins.
> 
> Stock fans are
> 
> *EverCool EC4010M12CA:*
> Noise: 21 dB(A)
> Airflow: 5.22 CFM
> Power: 0.07A
> 
> Replacement fans are
> 
> *Noctua NF-A4x10 FLX:*
> Noise: 17.4 dB(A)
> Airflow: 8.2 CFM
> Power: 0.05A
> 
> Stock fans:
> View attachment 259783
> 
> 
> View attachment 259786
> 
> 
> 
> Noctua Fans:
> View attachment 259784
> 
> 
> View attachment 259785
> 
> 
> Time to send to Biketronics and soon we’ll have a forum demo amp


Appreciate the fan swap tip! My BT4180 is still sitting around but I'll be doing this upgrade prior to install. 

My DSP also puts out 8v so I may end up having the gain mod done by Biketronics as well.


----------



## Heavy Metal

Bnlcmbcar said:


> The dimensions for NC2500 is:
> 8.125” x 5.5” x 2.125”
> 
> Confirmed from Mike the ratings of the amp adhere to the Hypex ratings of:
> 
> 700w @ 4ohm
> 550w @ 2ohm
> 400w @ 8ohm
> (per channel)
> 
> Bbfoto can chime in but like the BT2700-2 the NC2500 supports 12Awg speaker wire. It specifically had the more traditional Weidmuller Spring-Cage speaker terminals. So regular 12ga ferrules will work.
> 
> On the fuse rating he is simply suggesting the "smallest" rating to get the job done. Start at 40 amps and go up if need be.



Question BT2700-2 is it not 2ohms 700 watts rms per channel? Paralleled would be 350 watts rms per speaker?


----------



## Heavy Metal

I have a road glide 2018, have you graded a bit but I bought a Biketronics BT4180 along with that I put in for my 6.5” Hertz Millie MLK 1650.3 Legends in fairing and speaker pods on tour pack but used XTC custom crossovers vs the crossovers that came with hertz and I cranked it always on stock radio @10-12 sometimes to 16 volume and wow clean clear LOUD. Now I have NO 6.5’s I’m running Hertz SV 200.1 and ST25 in my fairing and Hertz ST 200 L and ST35 in both saddle bag lids and tour pack lids but on running fairing and tour pack lids... now at 10 and 12 out of 17 volume my ears ring LOL kidding it’s loud no speed and the loud exhaust system I have when I get on the bike over powers the amps loudness lol I’m wanting more power and eyes are on the BT700-2


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Heavy Metal said:


> Question BT2700-2 is it not 2ohms 700 watts rms per channel? Paralleled would be 350 watts rms per speaker?


Potentially yes. Looks like you quoted the power ratings I listed for the NC2500 (not the BT2700).










I would still reach out to Biketronics to confirm. It will depend on the final ohm load per channel and the ohm ratings of the speakers that are in parallel.

The amp platform is based on 4 x hypex UCD400LP modules that are internally bridged so that that each channel is 2 x 400 watt 4-ohm optimized modules in parallel for 700 watts at 2 ohms.

Last time I spoke to Mike he reported it puts out ~450 watts per channel @ 4ohms loads.










It’s the same case as the BT4180 so physically it will be a direct swap.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Also heads up for those curious.

While Biketronics has a satisfaction guarantee (if you buy an amp from them directly, you are able to return it no questions asked in 30 days or so for full refund if it’s not what to your liking), the price tag of the quality amps usually puts people on the fence. So I thought a demo amp would be a good idea to help entice those on the fence. Earlier this year I sent in a BT2180 of mine for input voltage adjustments that I was going to pass around as a demo amp for the community.

I shared this idea with Mike and after a couple conversations, he was intrigued by the concept and wanted to provide a more capable amp for demo purposes.

It’s been slowly brewing but let’s just say Biketronics has been cooking up an offering that should excite us car audio folks. Should be sending it out to me soon. I won’t release the details just yet but it will be more than 2 channels...

So stay tuned!


----------



## Heavy Metal

Bnlcmbcar said:


> The dimensions for NC2500 is:
> 8.125” x 5.5” x 2.125”
> 
> Confirmed from Mike the ratings of the amp adhere to the Hypex ratings of:
> 
> 700w @ 4ohm
> 550w @ 2ohm
> 400w @ 8ohm
> (per channel)
> 
> Bbfoto can chime in but like the BT2700-2 the NC2500 supports 12Awg speaker wire. It specifically had the more traditional Weidmuller Spring-Cage speaker terminals. So regular 12ga ferrules will work.
> 
> On the fuse rating he is simply suggesting the "smallest" rating to get the job done. Start at 40 amps and go up if need be.





I’d like to see a 4 channel version of this BY4700-2


----------



## Heavy Metal

40 amp fuse for 700, 550, 400 rms per channel wow


----------



## Sam Spade

Awesome review thanks


----------



## theobjectivist

Bnlcmbcar said:


> It’s been slowly brewing but let’s just say Biketronics has been cooking up an offering that should excite us car audio folks. Should be sending it out to me soon. I won’t release the details just yet but it will be more than 2 channels...
> 
> So stay tuned!


Any news of these new products?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

I usually let them do their thing during biking season which goes through this month but I shot Mike a message. If he shares anything fruitful I’ll let y’all know!


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Finally got some word!

Things have been slow as they deal with hot and cold Covid-19 Market for their biking season as well as working on the nearly complete initiative of sourcing NO parts from China for their various products.

Amp is complete and he is basically finalizing the cover plate for it. Sounds like he’s leaning towards giving it the Vivid Amps logo/cover plate treatment from the NCore model.

6 channels Hypex UCD. Rebuilt front end from the older 6180 for phenomenal performance to the point where the Hypex modules themselves the limiting factor. Keep in mind they are some one of Hypex’s earliest costumers using the modules since 2006! They have modules With serial numbers in the single digits.. so I‘m pretty confident they know how work with the modules for that SQ we love.

Patiently waiting to have it in my hands before any power or price info is released. All I can say is soon!


----------



## theobjectivist

Wow - im loving the news. Six channels is exactly what I had hoped.

If the prices are inline with reality, sign me up for a pair.


----------



## bbfoto

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Finally got some word!
> 
> Things have been slow as they deal with hot and cold Covid-19 Market for their biking season as well as working on the nearly complete initiative of sourcing NO parts from China for their various products.
> 
> Amp is complete and he is basically finalizing the cover plate for it. Sounds like he’s leaning towards giving it the Vivid Amps logo/cover plate treatment from the NCore model.
> 
> 6 channels Hypex UCD. Rebuilt front end from the older 6180 for phenomenal performance to the point where the Hypex modules themselves the limiting factor. Keep in mind they are some one of Hypex’s earliest costumers using the modules since 2006! They have modules With serial numbers in the single digits.. so I‘m pretty confident they know how work with the modules for that SQ we love.
> 
> Patiently waiting to have it in my hands before any power or price info is released. All I can say is soon!


I haven't checked in with Mike recently, but I need (WANT!) one of these new 6-channel amps in my life ASAP. 

Looking forward to these.

Do you know what the input sensitivity will be on this particular amplifier...fixed at ~4v, or a specified range via potentiometer?

Thanks


----------



## preston

Just picked up a 4180 from ebay for my new build. I had room for my big Rockford Fosgate class A/B amps but love the smaller footprint, and based on the repuatation of these Hypex modules who is to say if it won't be higher fidelity anyway. I'm one of those who doesn't believe in much difference between quality amps, at least not to my ears, but can't say I've done a lot of direct auditioning either. So I do plan to do some listening between my "25 to life" Punch 75 200wrms and this tiny little box, and maybe throw in a small class FD Pioneer amp as well. Between all the switch cables around I don't expect to draw too much conclusion, I mostly want to confirm to myself it won't be step back. 

so not much to give you at the moment, I just re-read this thread about 4 times before plopping down the money on an amp I didn't need so I was excited enough to add this post !


----------



## CrimsonCountry

preston said:


> Just picked up a 4180 from ebay for my new build. I had room for my big Rockford Fosgate class A/B amps but love the smaller footprint, and based on the repuatation of these Hypex modules who is to say if it won't be higher fidelity anyway. I'm one of those who doesn't believe in much difference between quality amps, at least not to my ears, but can't say I've done a lot of direct auditioning either. So I do plan to do some listening between my "25 to life" Punch 75 200wrms and this tiny little box, and maybe throw in a small class FD Pioneer amp as well. Between all the switch cables around I don't expect to draw too much conclusion, I mostly want to confirm to myself it won't be step back.
> 
> so not much to give you at the moment, I just re-read this thread about 4 times before plopping down the money on an amp I didn't need so I was excited enough to add this post !


Nice! Curious to see what you think about it once you swap it out. I've got a 4180 and 2180 myself and tried them out (only a few days). Loved the power output but didn't like the fan noise at low volume...even after the Noctua fan swap. Granted my amps are under the front seats though so that wouldn't be any issue in most installs.


----------



## preston

I've got this in and starting to tune the front stage. It sounds good, but background noise seems high and might be carrying some fan motor feedback noise. 

What have others experienced with this amp ? I'm not talking obnoxious, but its noticeable. I feel like a lot of it is coming from fan motor feedback.


----------



## CrimsonCountry

It has a very high noise floor due to the fixed "gains" being so low, ~3 - 4v. I even removed the fan from mine (as I didnt like the fan noise itself) and the noise floor was the same, so it wasn't only related to the fan running. 

Also, since my DSP can put out up to 8v, I attenuated the DSP levels to -30dB (running horns still), and it was still there.

My planned "fix" is to use my CarPC > UDAC8 (8ch USB DAC) > BT Amps...skip the 3sixty.3. The UDAC8 puts out around 2.1v so it should be a better match. 

The best fix is to have them up the gain but they have to swap out your board and everything for that and I'm trying the cheaper route first. Ha


----------



## preston

Thanks its good to hear that there is probably not anything wrong with my amp. I actually just talked to Mike at BT and he suggested unplugging the fans as a test, and more or less said it would probably be okay to leave them disconnected in a big trunk just driving tweets and mids. I can also hear the fans mechanical noise even though its in a soundproofed trunk so I am interested in hearing if it affects the noise floor to unplug them. As seen earlier in this thread you can also put in quieter nocturna fans but if they are contributing to the noise floor it wouldn't help my complaint much. So I will try that experiment today and report back.

and of course he offered to reduce the gain if I wanted to send it in, but I just installed this system and don't want to swap out the amp quite yet. We didn't discuss cost but I can't imagine it would be too much. I can def see doing that though if I keep this thing. Other than the noise floor initial listening tests are positive, sounds quite good although I'm not a big believer in amp SQ differences.

This went in the new system in place of two large class Rockford Fosgate A/B amps, it really is quite ridiculous how much smaller it is. I will say the wiring ended up being more annoying than I thought it would be, I'd gladly make this thing 15% bigger just to have some real terminals on it but that's not what its for either. Looking forward to testing it back and forth against these older amps


----------



## CrimsonCountry

Mike seems like a good guy and is genuinely interested in car audio use from the few times I've talked to him. Its even more obvious when looking back over this thread with his upcoming amps and corresponding changes hes made to make them more auto-friendly.

As for the amps getting warmer w/out the fans, I think you'll be fine. I ran mine w/out the fans during the summer under my front seats. They got a little warm after long drives but you'll have way more airflow as well.

When I talked to Mike about the gains and board swap in the summer, he told me the fall would be ideal since their bike season is over/slow at that point and they could turn it quickly. Because the gain/ filter removal involves new internals, its not cheap but not terrible either considering the cost of these amps.

I went from a decent, cheaper Class D to the BT and it was clean. I too am skeptical on perceivable gains on high-end amps assuming your base amp doesnt have any major flaws. I'm thinking the cleaner design and load invariance of the Hypex is the biggest improvement but it may not be all that audible depending on your setup other than some tuning/gain tweaks.


----------



## Sam Spade

CrimsonCountry said:


> Mike seems like a good guy and is genuinely interested in car audio use from the few times I've talked to him. Its even more obvious when looking back over this thread with his upcoming amps and corresponding changes hes made to make them more auto-friendly.
> 
> As for the amps getting warmer w/out the fans, I think you'll be fine. I ran mine w/out the fans during the summer under my front seats. They got a little warm after long drives but you'll have way more airflow as well.
> 
> When I talked to Mike about the gains and board swap in the summer, he told me the fall would be ideal since their bike season is over/slow at that point and they could turn it quickly. Because the gain/ filter removal involves new internals, its not cheap but not terrible either considering the cost of these amps.
> 
> I went from a decent, cheaper Class D to the BT and it was clean. I too am skeptical on perceivable gains on high-end amps assuming your base amp doesnt have any major flaws. I'm thinking the cleaner design and load invariance of the Hypex is the biggest improvement but it may not be all that audible depending on your setup other than some tuning/gain tweaks.


@preston 
Ill be really interested in your tests. I was selling home hifi when class d started being released. But in the 90s rotels new class D were rubbish compared to their class AB which were stellar. I still have a 30 yo 200wpc into 8 ohms rotel power amp in my home system. But Class D has come a long way. Better class D due to size heat and efficiency could be worth some SQ tradeoff in car installs. But the hypex platform is the first class D ive seen that equals top end class AB in subjective listening and measurements in reviews. And marantz and NAD i think are now releasing home amps using class d on the hypex platform. The fact that those two companies who usually have some no compromise SQ models in their ranges, plus so much IP and experience in class A and AB to use hypex is a massive vote of confidence. If i had a small car tight install i'd probably risk biketronics without even auditioning them they are written up so well. And thats from a person with a class A preamp to go with the rotel power and a marantz integrated you can switch between class A 20wpc and AB 100wpc in a dynaudio bookshelf system for home use. And two helix C fours and four hertz HP802s in my car. So thats 30kg and 1320 watts of hertz into 4 ohms and probably 10 to 15 kg of helix and 1200 watts into 4ohm. Seems like overkill when i put it like that but it is a big 4WD station wagon running 3ways front and rear plus subs.

So anyway really interested in Rockford Fosgate A/B v biketronics


----------



## Sam Spade

re amp differences we had 3 really good $600 amps about 50 watts rms. Rotel, marantz and yamaha. Same price. They all sounded different. We'd mess around doing ab blind tests when there were no customers. My experience is amps sound different. The question is whether the price difference is justified.


----------



## preston

Cool. Don't hold your breath though I still have a lot of system to install before I have time to do swap tests. 
Breaking in the upper front stage this weekend, sounds really nice. However a comparison comes out the BT amp is good stuff.


----------



## Sam Spade

preston said:


> Cool. Don't hold your breath though I still have a lot of system to install before I have time to do swap tests.
> Breaking in the upper front stage this weekend, sounds really nice. However a comparison comes out the BT amp is good stuff.


Yes ive got a false floor in my ststion wagon so happy with my subs and amps there at the moment. Just really interested in hypex due to the reviews and measurements and especially marantz commiting to them. I need a dual battery for outback work but for most cars dual batteries cap banks and bigger alternators could be a thing of the past except SPL Systems. And kw systems, power in small cars much easier. And all with good SQ @Fish Chris 2 🤣


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

preston said:


> I've got this in and starting to tune the front stage. It sounds good, but background noise seems high and might be carrying some fan motor feedback noise.
> 
> What have others experienced with this amp ? I'm not talking obnoxious, but its noticeable. I feel like a lot of it is coming from fan motor feedback.


You can try disconnecting the fan but I doubt that is the issue. CrimsonCountry is correct! (Especially if you nabbed the amp of eBay). The gains need to be rolled all the way back via Mike. Noise floor will disappear and your DSP will become your new gain controller.


----------



## creed

The fan noise is one bit, but even the gain is hot at 2-3v, the DSP should be able to match the gain if not lower? Would that necessary to be rolled back by Mike?


----------



## CrimsonCountry

creed said:


> The fan noise is one bit, but even the gain is hot at 2-3v, the DSP should be able to match the gain if not lower? Would that necessary to be rolled back by Mike?


You would think so but I turned down my DSP gains by an extra -20dB (from around -10 to -30) and it was equally noisy. I didn't notice any reduction at all in the high noise floor. 

Again, this was with the fans disconnected and completely removed on both the BT2180 (older build) and BT4180 (newer build). 

Heck, I even tried out the Noctua fan swap mentioned by Bnlcmbcar and, although they were a little quiter, they were still way too noisy for me being in-cabin and under my seat.

Out of curiosity, I'm planning to try out my lower level output UDAC8 directly to them his weekend (vs my current 8v DSP) to see how that sounds. As they only put out around 2.1v, they should be a better match noise-wise.


----------



## preston

My understanding would be that the noise floor is from the gain in the amp, doesn't really matter that much how you setup your DSP. High gain will simply amplify the noise floor that is there, which is why source units have migrated from 2v to 5v+ outputs over the years. With the high gain in the BT amp, you have to send a lower level signal over the RCA which means the SNR is of course higher, and that then gets amplified.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

preston said:


> My understanding would be that the noise floor is from the gain in the amp, doesn't really matter that much how you setup your DSP.


Bingo!

Roll back the amp’s input voltage and you will lower the noise floor as well as well as the added bonus of slightly lower THD+N.

My amps are rolled back all the way. No noise floor with Helix Ultra Master volume turned up all the way to 0db (ScanSpeak Berrylium tweeters with 90.9db sensitive). Individual channel gains for tweeters are at -20db on the DSP.


----------



## creed

I'll start getting 2 units of the BT4180 into the installation, 1 of the BT4180 is the motorcycle version which has the highpass filter and ~2v gain, I'm using that for the front tweeter and midrange. The other BT4180 (car version, highpass removed, and gain at ~4v) I'm using 2 channels for the midbass, and remaining 2 channels reserved for a near future Dayton UM12 Ultimax sub.

I'll report back whether this works well considering the different in the gain of both units, hopefully my current DSP allows the tweak of the output to match the gain, as well as do not introduce unnecessary noise floor


----------



## preston

My understanding is you can't bridge these channels so what is your plan for using 2 channels on the sub ? does it have dual voice coils ?


----------



## creed

It's a dual voice coils 2+2ohm configuration


----------



## creed

I was too excited, but the motorcycle version of BT4180 definitely is noisier and it's definitely noticeable, thought it's not unbearable but there's this consistent background noise which is noticeable enough...even though I tried various different options of keeping the channel db down, even by unplugged the RCA from the DSP, the amplifier with the speaker cable connected once powered up did exhibit the same behavior of noising at the background.

Looking like rolling down the gain is the way to go, just contemplating on whether to live with it or send it all the way back for Mike to get the gain reduced, xover removed, as well as refit a power socket to the XT variant.


----------



## creed

I managed to secure another similar size amplifier so replacement of the amp can be done without changing the wiring and setup, was a loan amplifier from the installer which is a very small Rockford PBR300x4 just as an interim amplifier while I sort out the BT4180 noisefloor issue, once the PBR300x4 went in, the noise floor issue was gone so I am happy.

Sorting out what's the next option for the setup, in discussion with Mike on the BT4250 and also plan to send this BT4180 back for rolling down the gain and refit the XT connector for a more appropriate usage in car environment.


----------



## preston

Let us know how long that takes and how much it costs. I'm kind of in the same boat, just finished a new install (and its the best sound I've ever had !) and am loathe to be without the amplifier for an extended period. I have thought about buying a cheap 4 channel amp but I've been working on for over 2 months its hard to start ripping stuff out. I've barely even driven the car !
I've even thought about buying a 4250 that would plug right into the same spot, justifying it as telling myself "but it has even BETTER modules !" (ncore vs Hypex). Then selling the 4180 or using it to reduce my amp footprint even more. But that's a pretty expensive option considering I could fix the SNR issue with this one for $150 (?? not sure what it will cost).


----------



## creed

i am lucky as I had a small enough amplifier under loan from the installer . 

BT4250 still uses Hypex uCD instead of Ncore.


----------



## creed

--- redundant ---


----------



## cman

Any updates from anyone? - I would like to mention that the Hypex UCD 250 has drastically lower distortion than the 180's - like super super low on par with some of the nCores - not that the 180s are high, they are still ridiculously low distortion... the 250s are just 0.000 instead of 0.0 or something, you can find the specs on hypex's website

Im just wondering what peoples experiences are with these recently. I know the hypex modules are as solid as it gets, but there ia a power supply involved that can greatly impact distortion, plus the signal input devices. Can anyone who is running the new 4250s or the 4180s in an SQ build give us some updated feedback on how they are working and sounding?


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## preston

So far I'm still very happy with mine - I would describe it as very accurate and clear (and dynamic !). Still haven't hooked up my old class AB amp to compare, I do wonder if there would be a softening. I can imagine that with my new Berrylium tweeters and digital straight into DSP the sound may have migrated toward the clinical side. For a long time I thought I preferred a warmer more analog sound but now I"m not sure, I do like my accuracy and detail. I do remember a little bit softer warmer sound in my previous car, but different tweeters, different car, different H/U with no external DSP, so I don't think its valid to compare. don't get me wrong either, I think it sounds amazing best vehicle I've built yet.

The SNR continues to be my only complaint. A member here gave me a good deal on a lightly used 4180 so I bought it and sent it in to get the gain turned down, and when it comes back I will send hte one in I'm currently using and find a use for it. But I sent it to Biketronics in mid December and haven't gotten it back yet, so there is that.

When I do get it back, that is probably when I will mess with other amplifiers and see what I think - although the only thing I have to compare it to is early-00's Rockford Fosgate Punch75 "25 to life" anniversary amps.


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## cman

preston said:


> So far I'm still very happy with mine - I would describe it as very accurate and clear (and dynamic !). Still haven't hooked up my old class AB amp to compare, I do wonder if there would be a softening. I can imagine that with my new Berrylium tweeters and digital straight into DSP the sound may have migrated toward the clinical side. For a long time I thought I preferred a warmer more analog sound but now I"m not sure, I do like my accuracy and detail. I do remember a little bit softer warmer sound in my previous car, but different tweeters, different car, different H/U with no external DSP, so I don't think its valid to compare. don't get me wrong either, I think it sounds amazing best vehicle I've built yet.
> 
> The SNR continues to be my only complaint. A member here gave me a good deal on a lightly used 4180 so I bought it and sent it in to get the gain turned down, and when it comes back I will send hte one in I'm currently using and find a use for it. But I sent it to Biketronics in mid December and haven't gotten it back yet, so there is that.
> 
> When I do get it back, that is probably when I will mess with other amplifiers and see what I think - although the only thing I have to compare it to is early-00's Rockford Fosgate Punch75 "25 to life" anniversary amps.



Rockford A/B’s are good stuff usually. Hmm so you have not received it back since having the gain adjusted? That is what makes me want to get the 4250 with the gain pots... but as long as I know what is a good gain setting for an SQ build from other people then I can have them set mine at that voltage if I decide to buy one or two of them - I’m thinking 5v but I’m not 100% sure...


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## CrimsonCountry

preston said:


> So far I'm still very happy with mine - I would describe it as very accurate and clear (and dynamic !). Still haven't hooked up my old class AB amp to compare, I do wonder if there would be a softening. I can imagine that with my new Berrylium tweeters and digital straight into DSP the sound may have migrated toward the clinical side. For a long time I thought I preferred a warmer more analog sound but now I"m not sure, I do like my accuracy and detail. I do remember a little bit softer warmer sound in my previous car, but different tweeters, different car, different H/U with no external DSP, so I don't think its valid to compare. don't get me wrong either, I think it sounds amazing best vehicle I've built yet.
> 
> The SNR continues to be my only complaint. A member here gave me a good deal on a lightly used 4180 so I bought it and sent it in to get the gain turned down, and when it comes back I will send hte one in I'm currently using and find a use for it. But I sent it to Biketronics in mid December and haven't gotten it back yet, so there is that.
> 
> When I do get it back, that is probably when I will mess with other amplifiers and see what I think - although the only thing I have to compare it to is early-00's Rockford Fosgate Punch75 "25 to life" anniversary amps.


Curious to see how long it ends up taking to get yours back. From talking to Mike, I was always under the impression that the fall/winter would be a great time to send them in due to lower motorcycle volume during the off-season. 

I still have a 2180 and 4180 sitting in my closet waiting to do the same. You have him set the sensitivity at the usual 4v? And I assume you had him remove the 50hz filter as well (although I think he does this anyway with a new board)?

I would love the 4250 as well but the extra 70w/channel and gain pots aren't worth the jump to me atm. Granted I do remember seeing a dyno on them and they seemed to be underrated from what I remember.


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## preston

I got my "we received your item" email on Dec 30th (so give them a break for taking a holiday, I think it left my house on the 15th ?). Curiously enough there were like 8 of us taht got the email so I assume they had at least that many to update or fix. And they did say it might take a month, and its been about a month. I'll probably ding 'em in a couple more weeks.

I just told him I have a Helix Pro so I think he sets the gain at like 5v to allow for "gain rollback" whatever that is. Pretty sure the Helix puts out up to 8 volts. I said remove the 45Hz filter if it doesn't cost a lot more, but if it was more than $50 extra to not bother. I"m not sure what all is involved. 

I would like to see it back though, I'm kind of holding off on optimizing my gains and another round of tuning 'til then, not to mention maybe an amp comparison test. The background noise does bother me in quiet music and between songs. I forget how much it dispels the illusion until I listen to something quiet in my truck. 

That will be another interesting experiment - when I get this one back I'll take the one I"m running now and send that in too, and when I get THAT back, I'll replace a nice little Pioneer 4 channel class FD amp powering the front stage in my truck and it will be very interesting to see if I notice much difference there, as the Pioneer is 4*115 @4 but only costs $190 (when its in stock at least).


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## 2010hummerguy

I am currently running the following setup in my 2001 Ferrari 550 Maranello, and I have had this system for almost 2 years:

Audioengine B1 Bluetooth receiver (BT 5.0 and AptX HD). Mike and I measured it on his AP analyzer and the results were incredible. It is as close to lossless as BT can get with existing technology, and zero noise floor (I remember it having ~125db SNR).
miniDSP 8x12DL
BT4250
Bliesma T25b-6 tweeters (the only dome tweeters I have heard that sound like RAAL)
Brax Graphic Pro mids
BT2250
SI BM MKV

It is my favorite system I have ever had. Not only does it sound great, but it is a lot of fun. Every genre of music sounds good and not the slightest hint of veil. It plays crazy loud, loud enough to hear clearly with the windows down at 100+ with a straight piped V12 screaming away. And the impact to the electrical system is minimal which is good because the ignition system demands a great deal of power from the OEM 140amp, and it does not like to compete for power (fun fact, Ferrari sources the alternator from a John Deere diesel marine engine part number).


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## seafish

^^^sounds like an awesome system for fast and loud car!!!


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## preston

This will be a repeat of comments I made in a BIketronics for sale thread but want to repeat and expound on them here for future reference.

I had previously complained about a very high SNR in my install that included a BT4180 amplifier on the mids and tweets. We can assume that in system that is going straight from a brand new Helix DSP to the amps that the "hiss" is primarily an artifact of the amplifier. We can also then assume that it doesn't matter what the crossovers are the frequency of the hiss will remain the same. 
Since I had previously read about the high gain on these amps and potential high background noise, and the "high frequency" content of the noise, I just assumed it was all coming from my mids/tweets and the BT4180. 

I obtained a second BT4180 amp and sent it in to reduce the gain and remove the HP filter. Due to covid issues, holidays, etc. it took me about 7 weeks to get the amplifier back. However it only cost $30 + shipping to have the mod done. I went to install it and between my neighbor talking to me and the dim lighting (and a piece of black electrical tape on the red wire from the batttery) I actually managed to reverse the power/gnd wires and blew the amp ! D'uh, I'm an idiot ! I sent it back and this time had it returned in less than two weeks, fully repaired for $45 + $30 shippping (from Idaho to WA ? Go figure). 

Disappointingly there was no change in the background noise so I did a little investigating and realized the noise was coming from my woofers this whole time ! D'uh I'm an idiot. I lowered the gain on my woofer amp and retuned and the system was incredibly quiet. Which made me very happy - it really does make a difference when a the music starts from "nothing". 

the downside is now I'm not sure if there is a real need to reduce gains on these amps as I don't know how much noise it was really creating. Yes, I have the original BT4180 that hasn't been lowered, but I'm too lazy to go back and in and reconnect everything just to test it. and for the same reason I haven't gotten around to testing the BT4180 against my 2003 era Rockford Fosgate big class A/B amps either, just too many wires to run, too much re-tuning to do after 5 months of work on this install. Maybe someday. I actually almost bought that Phass 4 channel amp with the tube pre-amp section that's for sale as a more valid comparison vs my more down market RF amps, but I don't have the budget to randomly buy $1000 amps for fun. 

But I do plan to use my leftover BT4180 in my truck and then maybe I'll come to a conclusion. Going to replace a $200 Pioneer 4 channel amp 4*115 @ 4ohms. I will be very curious to see if I notice a big SQ difference there.

Bottom line I'm still loving this amp it sounds very dynamic and accurate, and very quiet as well LOL. If there is one complaint I might say my system these days sounds a tad "clinical" or "digital" vs more of a warm sound I had in my previous car. But very different car, new H/U, different speakers, different DSP, different amp. Hmm, maybe I will make the effort to compare against some class A/B, although I don' tknow if 15 year old mid-market RF amps will give a definitive answer.


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## cman

preston said:


> This will be a repeat of comments I made in a BIketronics for sale thread but want to repeat and expound on them here for future reference.
> 
> I had previously complained about a very high SNR in my install that included a BT4180 amplifier on the mids and tweets. We can assume that in system that is going straight from a brand new Helix DSP to the amps that the "hiss" is primarily an artifact of the amplifier. We can also then assume that it doesn't matter what the crossovers are the frequency of the hiss will remain the same.
> Since I had previously read about the high gain on these amps and potential high background noise, and the "high frequency" content of the noise, I just assumed it was all coming from my mids/tweets and the BT4180.
> 
> I obtained a second BT4180 amp and sent it in to reduce the gain and remove the HP filter. Due to covid issues, holidays, etc. it took me about 7 weeks to get the amplifier back. However it only cost $30 + shipping to have the mod done. I went to install it and between my neighbor talking to me and the dim lighting (and a piece of black electrical tape on the red wire from the batttery) I actually managed to reverse the power/gnd wires and blew the amp ! D'uh, I'm an idiot ! I sent it back and this time had it returned in less than two weeks, fully repaired for $45 + $30 shippping (from Idaho to WA ? Go figure).
> 
> Disappointingly there was no change in the background noise so I did a little investigating and realized the noise was coming from my woofers this whole time ! D'uh I'm an idiot. I lowered the gain on my woofer amp and retuned and the system was incredibly quiet. Which made me very happy - it really does make a difference when a the music starts from "nothing".
> 
> the downside is now I'm not sure if there is a real need to reduce gains on these amps as I don't know how much noise it was really creating. Yes, I have the original BT4180 that hasn't been lowered, but I'm too lazy to go back and in and reconnect everything just to test it. and for the same reason I haven't gotten around to testing the BT4180 against my 2003 era Rockford Fosgate big class A/B amps either, just too many wires to run, too much re-tuning to do after 5 months of work on this install. Maybe someday. I actually almost bought that Phass 4 channel amp with the tube pre-amp section that's for sale as a more valid comparison vs my more down market RF amps, but I don't have the budget to randomly buy $1000 amps for fun.
> 
> But I do plan to use my leftover BT4180 in my truck and then maybe I'll come to a conclusion. Going to replace a $200 Pioneer 4 channel amp 4*115 @ 4ohms. I will be very curious to see if I notice a big SQ difference there.
> 
> Bottom line I'm still loving this amp it sounds very dynamic and accurate, and very quiet as well LOL. If there is one complaint I might say my system these days sounds a tad "clinical" or "digital" vs more of a warm sound I had in my previous car. But very different car, new H/U, different speakers, different DSP, different amp. Hmm, maybe I will make the effort to compare against some class A/B, although I don' tknow if 15 year old mid-market RF amps will give a definitive answer.



Rockford amps, especially the A/B ones have pretty low distortion.. I think it would be a great comparison.

You know.. I am very interested in purchasing two 4 channels to run in my vehicle.. I know for a fact that the Hypex UCD modules have extremely low distortion and a very high S/N ratio.

But... There are two other things you have to worry about not contained within the UCD module. The power supply and the input section (the "Pre Amp section") that takes the single ended RCA and converts it to a balanced signal to supply to the UCD module...

I believe there is either insignificant filtering in the power supply for an automotive environment... or it is simply because the gain is so high that its amplifying all the low level noise that would otherwise not be audible. Because when you have lower gain, and you have a higher input level then there is way more signal than noise....

I think they do this on purpose because alot of source units have low output voltage.. and on a motorcycle you cannot hear the humm or hiss anyways... if they set the input sensitivity too high (gain too low) they risk people not getting the full wattage out of their amplifiers...

They do have the BT4250 with the gain controls now... I wonder if there are any reports of noise on those... Anyone hear any reports on the variable gain models?


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## creed

I for one can attest to the BT4180 (motorcycle version) have the noise floor, have an identical BT4180 which sent for gain adjust that's quiet like a mouse.

I too got another BT4250 with gain control, quiet as mouse as well 

Very happy with the capability of these small form amplifier and it allows me to install it in location where in the past not deem possible and the fact i like it more is the efficiency


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## Ge0

bbfoto said:


> Yup, it'd be really nice for a pair of beefy 4-ohm midbass drivers as well as subwoofers.
> 
> Mine is being built as we speak. I'm looking forward to see how it performs, though I'm confident it'll be at least as good as the other BT-series amps I have, and will not leave me wanting more power for my application.


One has to ask themselves. Do you really need ultra low distortion and noise floor to drive midbasses and subs? I would love to see a 6x100W or 8x100W Ncore design. I know Hypex doesn't bother with 100W variants. But that seems more practical. At least for our a la cart type applications.


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## changster

bumping this up to see if anyone else have used Biketronics in their cars? Especially using ncore modules. Do you think they can use Purifi modules?


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## Heavy Metal

2 Biketronics BT4180’s
2 Biketronics BT2700-2’s

what do you think of this?🤣🤣🤣

like to see a review on the BT2700-2 and the BT4250.


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## Heavy Metal




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