# Best Option for Hi-Res



## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Hi,

What is the best option for a Hi-Res audio setup in a car?

Currently I have the Pioneer MVH-S501BS HU, I use Tidal on my phone for Hi-Res. Planning to get the Dragonfly DAC and have this as the aux input to pioneer. This seems to be the cheapest option? What do you think of this?

I am looking at options of how to achieve Hi-Res what are the options available. My main source would be Tidal. I am also planning to get a DSP setup.

Regards,
B


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Do you just want to be able to play Hi Res files? Or have a truly Hi Res system? If the latter, the entire system must be capable of playing Hi Res information. From start to finish, the source, amplification, and speakers need to be capable of reproducing sound beyond 20khz.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

To begin with I need to be able to Play Hi-Res. 

I am new into car audio, and I just got the car installed with GZ uranium SQ series amps speakers n sub.

Currently my weakest-link is the source I guess, playing Tidal on phone but bluetooth streamed to the Pioneer HU.


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## TerryGreen5986 (Jun 23, 2017)

Get a Hi-Res player and feed it directly into ur DSP. 


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Do you mean a Hi-Res HU or a HI-Res player like something portable?

In terms of the Hi-Res HU, I have seen only the Sony one and its on the expensive side. I would be interested to know what would be the cheapest alternatives for good music source in a car(to be used with Tidal)


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## TerryGreen5986 (Jun 23, 2017)

I️ meant something like this 










Doesn’t Tidal have a high res program you can subscribe to?? 


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

3.5mm out of the DAC to the DSP?

For now, since I do not have the DSP, I am still thinking of getting a DAC but use the AUX on my Pioneer HU. I am looking at if this is the best option or can I get it to the usb by any chance.

I am already subscribed to Tidal HI-FI, but currently I am using bluetooth to my HU. I was looking at the dragonfly red as this supports MQA in case Tidal comes up with MQA for phones I am future proof. But I am still concerned about using the Headphone jack and Aux input as the source to the HU.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I’d suggest getting a DSP and having the system tuned before exploring hi res. You will gain a much greater increase in overall sound quality with having a properly tuned system than by gains from hi res media.


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## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

.


Simplest way I've found to play true hi-rez music in a vehicle is to use a _portable digital hi-rez player_, digital out...straight into a DSP...to amps...to speakers.

Currently, hi-rez files are available for sources like *HD Tracks* at a resolution of 192/24...in album form, average $20 each.

*DSP:*
_*Mosconi 8to12 Aerospace*_... has a coaxial digital input and is capable of handling 192 format, native (coaxial input only). I use _Mosconi's_ *DSP Mini* to control volume. Completely bypass headunit...Pioneer will down-convert signal. Only headunit capable is _*Sony GS9*_. Cool feature of the DSP is it's automatic signal sensing feature, that will choose digital signals as priority over analog.

*DAP:*
*Fiio X7 Mark II*... is a new, _Android_ based, portable digital hi-rez player that has digital coaxial output. Uses new _Sabre ES9028 Pro_, a 32-bit DAC, up to over 500GB storage for music, bluetooth remote control. Little pricy, but, currently, for the money...as good as it gets.


I also use a _*Pioneer DEX-G99RS*_ as a headunit for CD, radio and iPod. When I want to play _hi-rez music_, I simply plug in my _ *X7*_, into a _digital coaxial cable_ that I had run to my center console. I use a _Fiio_ bluetooth _remote control_ to advance songs. Allows for DAP to be completely hidden, if wanted. Again, volume is controlled by DSP.

Works flawlessly and sounds great. With the right recordings, there is a very noticeable improvement when I play quality hi-rez files...vs...CD quality. However, it does depend on recording. 
*There is a difference between a 192/24 file that was simple unconverted...vs...a re-mastered/re-recorded in hi-rez format. Can be very misleading at point of purchase. Buyer-be-ware...*

Once bluetooth is used, for source signal, any benefit of hi-rez is lost. Hard-wired digital connection is required.


.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Thankyou  Its clear for me now. 

So shopping time for DSP and a DAC with optical i/o support


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Helix also has a Hi Res USB DAC input expansion card.

https://youtu.be/cAAK9GYONaI

Optical is not the best transport for Hi Res due to bandwidth limitation. USB or coax is the way to go.


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## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

May want to check out *dr.loudness-war.info*


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

So I have kind of shortlisted on Helix DSP.2 and JL Audio Twk88, I will be getting both in the same price point. Helix I will have to import it, JL audio is available locally.
For Helix I have to get the remote and HEC separate. So these will add to the price, and also since I am importing will have to worry about the warranty.

Is there something like the USB HEC for JL audio?

Both have Digital inputs, the JL has two(Optical and Coaxial) and Helix has 1 SPDIF. Are both the same? How do I get the output from a phone to the DSP if using optical?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

With all due respect to the JL piece - it certainly has a market and place within that market - the Helix is in a whole different category/league when it comes to its ability to tailor the sound.

I'd recommend downloading the software for both and playing with them in demo mode.


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## banshee28 (Mar 23, 2006)

benny z said:


> Helix also has a Hi Res USB DAC input expansion card.
> 
> https://youtu.be/cAAK9GYONaI
> 
> Optical is not the best transport for Hi Res due to bandwidth limitation. USB or coax is the way to go.


So I am currently using my Android phone going BT to my Audioengine B1 BT Receiver, SPDIF to my P 6 DSP. 

I am wondering how much of a "Noticeable" difference the HEC USB connection would be compared to the BT. Honestly the BT does sound really good so far! Would it make much of a difference??


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## TerryGreen5986 (Jun 23, 2017)

https://youtu.be/GsUS-F-tYVw 


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## jazzpassine (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm curious about this as well. I want to stream Tidal from my Pixel 2 into a DSP. From what I have researched, USB direct into a DSP would be the highest quality route. This is because it will use the DSP's clock and eliminate jitter??

Because of this I've been trying to narrow down what my options are because there don't seem to be many DSP's that will accept USB audio. But I might be way wrong as well. Any help would be appreciated!


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

jazzpassine said:


> I'm curious about this as well. I want to stream Tidal from my Pixel 2 into a DSP. From what I have researched, USB direct into a DSP would be the highest quality route. This is because it will use the DSP's clock and eliminate jitter??
> 
> 
> 
> Because of this I've been trying to narrow down what my options are because there don't seem to be many DSP's that will accept USB audio. But I might be way wrong as well. Any help would be appreciated!




Helix is the only DSP to consider IMHO.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

benny z said:


> Helix is the only DSP to consider IMHO.



Agreed


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

I dint get the time yet to go ahead with this upgrade. Planning next month hence re-opening this thread 

So from the feedback, I have narrowed down to Helix. I am almost sold for the Helix DSP.2+URC.3. I hope this should be good for my needs. Planning to also include a DAP and use the optical out fed to the DSP. Do I need the DSP PRO MK2? What am I missing between the DSP.2 and [email protected], from the specs all I could figure out was that MK2 has Hi-res audio and coax input.

If I have a DAP with Hi-Res will there be a big difference using the DSP.2? Is it better to use optical or coax output?


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

IF you want true highress sound you need the Mosconi 8to12 aerospace as that's the only dsp now with an internal procesing samplerate off 192khz, even de latest Helix only does 96khz at the processor...


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

From a budget perspective, my sweet spot would be the Helix DSP.2. I would be stretching it for anything else. Before I make a decision I need to be sure that the setup is capable of everything that I am looking for.

I am planning to add the FIIO X5 3rd GEN DAP. So the setup is as below;
Fiio X5 --> Helix DSP.2 ----> Ground Zero Amps (GZUA 4.150SQ-PLUS driving the components and rear-fill+GZUA 2.250SQ-PLUSS driving the Sub).
Music Source: Tidal and local files on DAP.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

As far as I can see the Fiio only has a coax digital output and the Helix only a toshlink digital input so you need a converter for that... the Mosconi dsp's do have a coax input and also the dsp pro mk2 off helix has a coax input. 
If you use the digital input on the helix or the mosconi you also need the controller to go with the dsp to control the volume. 
The way is to use a analog output from the DAP to a dsp then you can controle te volume on the DAP and you can use any dsp you like. 

Which will be the best solution depends on the outputs off the DAP en the inputs from the DSP you will use.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

This is getting more difficult and difficult(to have a decision) 

So to be future proof the best option would be the Aerospace 8 to 12, as it has both coax and optical input, support samplerate of 192Khz/24 bit.

Do I need something this expensive?


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## nhtunes (Jul 31, 2016)

I am confused. You say you are trying to stream music from Tidal. How does the x5 do this? Mine only stored and played music, if you are using it for just the DAP/DAC there are probably cheaper ways to go. Controlling your music through the x5 is a PITA when driving around.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Fiio X5 3rd gen does have this feature.


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

bonesb said:


> This is getting more difficult and difficult(to have a decision)
> 
> So to be future proof the best option would be the Aerospace 8 to 12, as it has both coax and optical input, support samplerate of 192Khz/24 bit.
> 
> Do I need something this expensive?



If you need such an expensive dsp I don't know.... the Helix dsp pro is even more expensive at least over here. 

It's just how far are you are willing to go, it all depends on the instal and what you want to get out off it.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Ben I might have asked or you might have already told, but have you compared coax to USB HEC? I’ll certainly do that but just wondered if you or anyone has and their thoughts. 


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## Saturnsl2lover (Mar 26, 2017)

The cheapest option is to get a kenwood excelon high res rated deck. Plug in the phone via USB and it will send digital to the deck like usb otg or iPhone. Tue deck and built in amp is high res to start and then you can upgrade from there via dsp etc.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Saturnsl2lover said:


> The cheapest option is to get a kenwood excelon high res rated deck. Plug in the phone via USB and it will send digital to the deck like usb otg or iPhone. Tue deck and built in amp is high res to start and then you can upgrade from there via dsp etc.


While it may be labeled "Hi Res" or whatever, look at the God awful specs:









Even then, there is something wacky with those measurements. If you have a [rather spectacular!] THD of 0.0001%, the dynamic range and SNR should be _a lot_ better. My *Resonessence Labs Concero HD* boasts <0.001& THD+noise, which equates to about 100 dB of SNR with about 112 dB of Dynamic Range capability. If you have 0.0001% (one-_tenth_ of my Concero HD), the SNR of that kenwood should be wayy over 100 dB. Without a doubt due to the inferior DAC in the unit, or the implementation there-in. 

Even my LG V30 phone with the ESS ES9218P Sabre DAC does wayy better on SNR and DR, with a purported *THD at <0.0002%*:










As you can see, something just doesn't add up on that Kenwood.

I agree with DPGstereo. Fiio X7 Mk II with the E9028Pro Sabre DAC as the sole source. I can only imagine it sounds sublime as other ESS equipped units do. 

Want to see a real DAC? Stick this in your car. *Dual* ES90*38*Pro Sabre DACs. One on _each _channel for dual-mono operation. >140 dB of dynamic range. THD+N <0.0002%. Stereo Separation: >120 dB. (said to be equivalent to thirty-two 9028 DAC channels operating in parallel).


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## Saturnsl2lover (Mar 26, 2017)

Well if that thd measurement is from the dac i guess its possible, they prolly messed up with the decimal point. Besides right off the bat it only goes down to 20hz and thats not hi res at all lol


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

The JL Audio TWK 88 will be a much better performer than the Kenwoods and it has both optical and coax input and a better price point.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

tonny said:


> IF you want true highress sound you need the Mosconi 8to12 aerospace as that's the only dsp now with an internal procesing samplerate off 192khz, even de latest Helix only does 96khz at the processor...


Sorry for being silly and stupid, I still haven't figured the science out 

Ok I was reading about this more, It says, from what a human ear can hear there is no need for a 192khz sampling rate. Is this true? also ("the small benefits of the higher sample rate are completely outweighed by unwanted “intermodulation distortion” in the analogue stages.")

Now if my source supports those sampling rates and dsp too, what about other components like amps and speakers? 

I am almost confirmed for going in with the Helix DSP pro MK2 next week, spoke with the dealer. From a price point its a bit cheaper than the mosconi and also available locally in Dubai.

The JL TWK 88 also looks a good option and much cheaper, but supports a lesser audio resolution of 24 bit / 48 kHz. For some reason I feel the Helix will be in a sweet spot.


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## TerryGreen5986 (Jun 23, 2017)

Helix for the win 


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

I was almost to get the Helix from the local seller and he said save the money  . Not sure why he said so. Did he not find anything in my setup that could be improved 

I am just pulling my hair thinking what to do  . 
I am still not fully happy with the sound. I feel I am still missing those low punches, specially when I play songs in lower volume. Still flat for my taste and I am wondering If I tune my equipment will it improve or add anything further to the setup. He asked me to try by changing the Phase( I dint see a phase control in my 4 channel amp) reversing the wires???


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I feel your frustration, and several folks have given solid advice in this thread. I'll echo what has been said already - DSP to manage signal and more effectively tune the system will have the most impact in your system. 

If you want to ensure you are purchasing something that will nearly 'future-proof' your set up - especially in terms of playing 'higher resolution' music - the Helix Pro mkII or the Mosconi will be your target. Many here including me prefers the Helix offering - especially in regards to the software. 

My set up includes the Pioneer P99 head unit for CD (seldom used) - through RCA to the Helix Pro mkII. And I have a digital coax cable running into the Helix that I connect the FiiO X5 iii that others mentioned. I find that to be a very pleasing solution. I also have the HEC/AUX module that accepts USB input into the Helix that I can connect my phone as Ben does in that video. Eventually the FiiO will implement USB output so I may only use one cable. 

As pointed out previously - If you want to run the FiiO through coax input into the Helix Pro mkII - you will need the Director for volume control because you won't have volume control out of the FiiO using coax out unfortunately.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

bertholomey said:


> Eventually the FiiO will implement USB output...


interesting! do you have info on that?

if that is the case, you could use the FiiO to play/store music and connect it to the USB-DAC on the sony gs9, which uses a DAC superior to that of the helix USB HEC. i'd be interested in trying/comparing that scenario. i've not yet bought the $1k+ sony walkman player to try connected to the USB-DAC on the gs9...which is how sony says its at its best.

i guess it wouldn't be much different than those of us using the onkyo player app form our i-devices to play direct into the USB-DAC, except that you would eliminate the camera connection kit and have a more direct USB path.


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## TerryGreen5986 (Jun 23, 2017)

^^ Sounds like a lot of money and hassle! I know, to some it’s worth it. But sheesh 


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

benny z said:


> interesting! do you have info on that?
> 
> if that is the case, you could use the FiiO to play/store music and connect it to the USB-DAC on the sony gs9, which uses a DAC superior to that of the helix USB HEC. i'd be interested in trying/comparing that scenario. i've not yet bought the $1k+ sony walkman player to try connected to the USB-DAC on the gs9...which is how sony says its at its best.
> 
> i guess it wouldn't be much different than those of us using the onkyo player app form our i-devices to play direct into the USB-DAC, except that you would eliminate the camera connection kit and have a more direct USB path.


That has been their 'goal' since they launched the X5iii - but it has been a moving target. I'm trying to keep up with the thread on Head-Fi, but I get lost in all of the complaints (it won't host my streaming this, it looses connection when I try to watch YouTube videos, I can't play my game on it, etc.....). So, FiiO has gotten a bit bogged down on updates with UI, ability to handle streaming services, etc. They are still planning on implementing USB output through a Firmware update - but not sure when that would be. 

They have made several Firmware updates over the last year....some are good, and some will offer a new feature, but corrupt something else that was working perfectly fine. I kind of wish they had made two versions.....pure music version and a Android-everything version. The pure music version with the FiiO Music App would be really nice - fast start up, and fast off. 

But with 32GB internal storage, and two 256GB capable micro SD Card, it is excellent for decent storage of a wide range of music and resolution. Most of my content has been down-converted to AAC (320kbs) for maximum amount of mobile music. I have some 96khz, 24bit content that I can send to the Helix - and it sounds pretty good.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bonesb said:


> I was almost to get the Helix from the local seller and he said save the money  . Not sure why he said so. Did he not find anything in my setup that could be improved
> 
> I am just pulling my hair thinking what to do  .
> I am still not fully happy with the sound. I feel I am still missing those low punches, specially when I play songs in lower volume. Still flat for my taste and I am wondering If I tune my equipment will it improve or add anything further to the setup. He asked me to try by changing the Phase( I dint see a phase control in my 4 channel amp) reversing the wires???


Missing bass at low volume is precisely why some companies use a "loudness" feature. If you aren't familiar with Fletcher Munson/equal loudness curves, it might be worth looking into. Essentially, as lower volumes we perceive very low, and very high frequencies as being quieter than they are. Loundess features boost lows and highs at low volumes and as you increase the volume they gradually boost less until they aren't being boosted at all. Properly done, they work well. Hi-Res isn't going to fix your issues.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Well I already have the loudness set to high, and it is definitely improvement. But sometimes I feel the higher frequencies are piercing the ear(High pitched voices). I was also reading about this and people had mixed opinions about keeping loudness on. Definitely improves the sound but not the right balance I am looking for. Sometimes it feels a bit roomy too.

Isn't a DSP supposed to solve this issue?


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## cjbrownco (Apr 30, 2014)

Babs said:


> Ben I might have asked or you might have already told, but have you compared coax to USB HEC? I’ll certainly do that but just wondered if you or anyone has and their thoughts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I would like to know this as well


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## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

bonesb said:


> Well I already have the loudness set to high, and it is definitely improvement. But sometimes I feel the higher frequencies are piercing the ear(High pitched voices). I was also reading about this and people had mixed opinions about keeping loudness on. Definitely improves the sound but not the right balance I am looking for. Sometimes it feels a bit roomy too.
> 
> Isn't a DSP supposed to solve this issue?


The dsp itself is not going to solve the problem... it's gives you the options to do that but the tuner off the dsp needs to get that out off it! 

When you get the instal right with the right speaker and installation an power behind them and then if you tune it right it will solve the problem!


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bonesb said:


> Well I already have the loudness set to high, and it is definitely improvement. But sometimes I feel the higher frequencies are piercing the ear(High pitched voices). I was also reading about this and people had mixed opinions about keeping loudness on. Definitely improves the sound but not the right balance I am looking for. Sometimes it feels a bit roomy too.
> 
> Isn't a DSP supposed to solve this issue?


Even with a DSP you still need to tune it well. If you get the tune/EQ right, and your gain structure right, then loudness will be completely off by the time you turn the volume up to fun listening levels. The key is getting the gains right so that it only boosts at low volumes, then stops impacting the EQ.

A good tune alone isn't enough though. A tune that doesn't have volume dependent EQ will suffer from low (perceived) bass at low volumes. The Loudness feature is the only thing that will give you perceived balance at any SPL.


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

bonesb said:


> I was almost to get the Helix from the local seller and he said save the money  . Not sure why he said so. Did he not find anything in my setup that could be improved
> 
> I am just pulling my hair thinking what to do  .
> I am still not fully happy with the sound. I feel I am still missing those low punches, specially when I play songs in lower volume. Still flat for my taste and I am wondering If I tune my equipment will it improve or add anything further to the setup. He asked me to try by changing the Phase( I dint see a phase control in my 4 channel amp) reversing the wires???


There sure are lot of gains to be had with careful tuning.

Perhaps also way too small cone area for the sub for what you are expecting. 
What's the size of current sub? Smaller or "most selling size" sub might not be what you are looking for. For me change to 15" sealed changed everything, now it's just matter of getting two (some other ones like dayton ho, because I probably can't get hold of another current one easily) to fit in and I have had to turn this one down few times.


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## bonesb (Sep 19, 2017)

Its a 12 inch sub in a sealed box, initially it was ported changed to sealed, which does sound much better.

I am also thinking to add extra sub; Change the setup to below;
Place the current Component to the rear have the fronts upgraded to a three way(not sure active/Passive). This means I will have to change my amp. I am thinking if I get a Helix P 6 DSP(6 Channel) It has the DSP and also drive the rear component and front three way with this and control using the DSP. Remove the two channel amp driving the SUB, use the 4 channel used by the speakers currently and If needed I have room to add an extra subwoofer later. Can the same Helix amp with DSP be used for the subwoofer(the dsp not the amp feature)?


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

Before you start to swap out equipment, how is the speaker install done? Is there proper gaskets /seal used to prevent airleaks for mids. The helix P 6 does have rca outs for sub amp. But if you want to run rear speakers and active front you need to buy something with more channels if you are not connecting the rears through deck and normally off.
Running passive front with external dsp just makes no sense. 

How are the crossover filters set(turn off amp filters and use the deck filter) , theres also time alignment in your deck - is it used?

With sealed sub turn off the subsonic filter (there are reasons to use it on sealed but I have always had better sound with it off)


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## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

Not seen it mentioned too may times, but I use a 128gb ipod touch (latest gen) through USB audio and Onkyo HF player into my Helix P-Six with USB module.

Seems to work very well and plays 24/96 when needed. For the main I use Tidal HiFi, download cd quality albums and play them through the tidal app on the ipod into the Helix.

Did think about dedicated players from Fiio etc, but ultimately the ipod just works and is also charged in the car with the Camera kit 3 that is all hidden away.

Simplicity and quality, independant of the factory head unit, that is also switchable in through using a HRC.3 controller (on high level speaker inputs to the P six)


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

Are the FiiO Coaxial Cables only 3ft long? How can I extend them.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I’ve got the small cable that came with the X5 connected to a blue jeans coax cable going from the center console to the trunk - not expensive and works well.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

bertholomey said:


> I’ve got the small cable that came with the X5 connected to a blue jeans coax cable going from the center console to the trunk - not expensive and works well.




Using some sort of adapter in between? 


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

bertholomey said:


> I’ve got the small cable that came with the X5 connected to a blue jeans coax cable going from the center console to the trunk - not expensive and works well.


Is this the correct one RCA/F.

https://i.imgur.com/bnQJGYm.png


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

This is the one that I bought because it stated that it was a little more flexible - not sure if it is, but it is just fine for running through the car. 

1505F Tech Coax Cable


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Just the little adapter plugged into the coax cable.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

bertholomey said:


> Just the little adapter plugged into the coax cable.


Thank you!


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