# BLAM S200.300 (8", 3", 1" 3 Way) vs AF GB60/25/10 - 2021 Sierra



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Long term contemplating what my 3 way active set up will be. 

System will have a Helix V8 (75W x 8 @ 4 ohms or 120W x 8 @ 2 ohms) plus a JL HD750.1.

Been hearing extremely positive things about the BLAM systems, both the Live and Signature series. Been working with Skizer (Nick) and has mentioned they are phenomenal, esp that 150W RMS 8 inch midbass @ 2 ohms.






S 200.300 - Blam Audio







www.blam-audio.com





On paper with my V8, this feels far more capable than the GB60/25/10 set up from a power standpoint. Just curious of folks who have heard the BLAM Signature speakers and their impressions on the sound signature vs the GBs. Price point is about the same. Open to different combos as well.

I'll be getting my 2 way active GB60/15 set up wired in a couple weeks but will be making the swap to 3 way later this year or after tax return season and I can afford Skizer's 3 way pods haha.

Trying to avoid any amp changes as I am trying to hold to two amps that fit in my Stealthbox "pocket" under my rear seat. Company truck.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

i have no idea what blam is capable of but you're interest here has got me second guessing my setup. at least contemplating the next direction after audiofrog.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

the ws8.120 looks very promising as a midbass. They call it a sub but it’s clearly designed for a 60-500 hz in a very small sealed box.



https://www.blam-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Technical_data_sheet_WS8.120.pdf


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

https://www.blam-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Technical-data-sheet-S200.300.pdf



It’s WS8.100 btw not the 120. Cut sheets for the three drivers are in that link.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Yup I saw your link after I posted and edited my post.

The ws8.100 looks like a better choice for a 2-way but the ws8.120 should have a lot more output from 60-100. Depending on price, etc, if you go with option 3.

I suspect they will both have more midbass than the 6.5” woofer you are considering but will be more work to install.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I use the Audiofrog three way GB. I have heard but never owned Blam. I would say the AF GB's have a brighter but not harsh signature in the mid and treble. The Blam's were more laid back and smoother. I pefered the sound of the Blam speakers. They remind me of Morel speakers, accurate, dynamic, detailed and somehow smooth at the same time.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Stycker said:


> They remind me of Morel speakers, accurate, dynamic, detailed and somehow smooth at the same time.


Man, this is exactly what I was hoping to hear. That's precisely what I am aiming for.


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## pilk (Sep 21, 2005)

How do you even price or buy Blam?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dealer Locator - MSC America







www.msc-america.com





It will show who carries BLAM.

If I purchase BLAM, it's going to be from @SkizeR as he's been helping me tremendously with my build and is probably my closest dealer to Maine.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> Dealer Locator - MSC America
> 
> 
> 
> ...


then why post a poll on here? Nick will not sell you something he does not believe in.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

cant speak anything about BLAM because the only place it has been referenced is on the internet in a forum. I can say that I have heard that exact AF 3 way and I was very impressed. Like very impressed. 

My assumption is BLAM are very good, just would have to hear them in person


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

miniSQ said:


> then why post a poll on here? Nick will not sell you something he does not believe in.


I posted a poll because I already own the GB60s before I engaged with Nick and was curious to see the community feedback. I fully trust Nick and his recommendations for my system, just trying to gain insight and understanding from folks who have heard the BLAM speakers and what they sound like as I don't have a dealer within 7+ hours of me. I have already made WAY too many changes to my system in a short period of time so trying to be thoughtful as I move forward is all - don't want to keep selling and changing out pieces constantly.

Perhaps the poll is pointless, because I will probably end up going BLAM which is where Nick was guiding me but I had pulled the trigger on a set of GB60s and 15s before I engaged him. I had not initially intended to go 3 way when I got the GBs, but I am convinced that 3 way is much more aligned with my ultimate goal audio wise after speaking with him and what I wanted to do.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

I never heard Blams, my Installer Shop sells them, but someone said their tweeters are overly bright ala non-beryllium Focals..

Sorry to throw out another option, but look up a member here withe the screen name "_mumbles_" he upgraded his GB10 & GB25 sets to the Thesis Voce & Violino (kept his existing woofers)... 

I also recently upgraded to the Thesis Voce & Violino and I can tell you, I will NEVER think of upgrading ever again...


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

MythosDreamLab said:


> I never heard Blams, my Installer Shop sells them, but someone said their tweeters are overly bright ala non-beryllium Focals..
> 
> Sorry to throw out another option, but look up a member here withe the screen name "_mumbles_" he upgraded his GB10 & GB25 sets to the Thesis Voce & Violino (kept his existing woofers)...
> 
> I also recently upgraded to the Thesis Voce & Violino and I can tell you, I will NEVER think of upgrading ever again...


After googling the price tag on those Thesis, I am not sure what's left on the market to upgrade to haha. Not to imply price means good, but damn.

I certainly do not want bright/harshness up top. Curious if the overly bright feel of the BLAM tweeters was targeted a specific line of the speakers or the entire line up. 

The tweeter response in the s200.300 set seemed to be on par for what I wanted from my top end but again would need to have them in the vehicle and tuned to make a judgement.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

I hear ya, lemme ask, what are the approx. combined costs of the Tweeter+Mids of the Blams and the AF's???


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I am not sure yet - trying to let Nick enjoy his vacation - but the midbass are around $1300 and I've seen the mid range in the $500-600 range, so I'll assume the tweeters are in $300-400 range.

The 3 way BLAM Signature 6 1/2" set is ~$1800, so I'd guess the 8" 3 way is ~$2200-2400


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## pilk (Sep 21, 2005)

MythosDreamLab said:


> I never heard Blams, my Installer Shop sells them, but someone said their tweeters are overly bright ala non-beryllium Focals..
> 
> Sorry to throw out another option, but look up a member here withe the screen name "_mumbles_" he upgraded his GB10 & GB25 sets to the Thesis Voce & Violino (kept his existing woofers)...
> 
> ...


Did you do your mid pod? That's what i would like to have in my Ridgeline.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

pilk said:


> Did you do your mid pod? That's what i would like to have in my Ridgeline.


I had a shop in So. Cal. make them, I don't want to hijack Ricks' thread, please visit my Build thread and we can talk more there, as needed:








2019 Honda Passport: Thesis 3-Way Set-up


As a Quality Manager and previous Design Engineer, I have documented my build below. Keeping in mind my goal was not to make this an on-going hobby, constantly swapping components out and creating my own “Winchester House”, my goal was to upgrade the stereo and then stop, enjoy and get on with...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

RickWilson said:


> I am not sure yet - trying to let Nick enjoy his vacation - but the midbass are around $1300 and I've seen the mid range in the $500-600 range, so I'll assume the tweeters are in $300-400 range.
> 
> The 3 way BLAM Signature 6 1/2" set is ~$1800, so I'd guess the 8" 3 way is ~$2200-2400



I feel sorry for you guys in the U.S I mean Morel is very fair, helix and audison is close but hell the Focal, Blam prices have an unacceptable amount of mark up.

The same 3 way 8inch Blam Signature can be had for literally half the price and thats from above average quoting boutique shops



Blam Signature S 200.300 – MK Entertainment




Truth be told I was even able to get lower prices than that aswell only problem is the installer who is offering it doesnt have a website for me to share.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

How about these:








Morel Hybrid 63


Hybrid Series 6-1/2" 3-way component speaker system




www.crutchfield.com


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

MythosDreamLab said:


> How about these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn I feel bad for you guys 

Turkish lira is 13.83tl to a dollar so the below Morel Elate Titanium 3 ways ( new edition) is actually the same price 






Morel ELATETITANIUM603 16Cm 3Way 1000 W 200 Rms Komponent Takımı - Aktepe Teknoloji - Oto Müzik Görüntü Navigasyon Sistemleri ve Teyp Çerçevesi Satış Merkezi


Morel ELATETITANIUM603 16Cm 3Way 1000 W 200 Rms Komponent Takımı - Aktepe Teknoloji - Oto Müzik Görüntü Navigasyon Sistemleri ve Teyp Çerçevesi Satış Merkezi




www.aktepesound.com





And thats without bargaining/ discount, its common practice here to often get 10-30% off especially if paid in cash


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

It's depressing to hear that pricing I can't lie but I can't change it and want to support local vendors best I can.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> then why post a poll on here? Nick will not sell you something he does not believe in.


Yeah, some members here think I make my money just moving equipment. But the reputation has to come from somewhere


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

MythosDreamLab said:


> I never heard Blams, my Installer Shop sells them, but someone said their tweeters are overly bright ala non-beryllium Focals..
> 
> Sorry to throw out another option, but look up a member here withe the screen name "_mumbles_" he upgraded his GB10 & GB25 sets to the Thesis Voce & Violino (kept his existing woofers)...
> 
> ...


Do you know where someone might be able
To purchase some of the these thesis speakers at a discounted rate? So Rick can compare pricing. 

Glad to hear you’re loving your recent upgrade, that came out nice! And you had some great stuff before that.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I think you guys need to hear Blam for yourself and you won't look back. 
Tweeters are so beautiful sounding, lots of detail on top without any harsh sound behind it. 
Easy to listen too and can they take power .. 
Composer of sound never changes from 10db to 100db. It's pure melody, i personally would not trade them and had crap ton of tweeters.
Due to my damage left ear, i could finally say it took me a while to enjoy a good sounding system.

I'm building pillars for the 3" baby, so i could tell you all later once they are in playing and my thoughts.

As far as midbasss. 
Skizer and many other installers or shop owners have the ability to get your hands on equipment that we would never be able to get, or afford at least for me.
Are there better 8" drivers? Sure they are, but at what price point? 
Either way whoever decides to pull a trigger on Blam or not, i felt in love with them, they are great driver and while being 2 ohm, you get everything out of them

It's a pleasure for me to have balm and try them out. Previously i had JL ZR800 and I'm not hunting for another set. Also wanted to see what is Focal all about, don't get me wrong they are beautiful and sounding great, but i know myself, and if i would push them too hard  i will be $1000 short to replace one! 
So i sold them, while all this has been happening, i picked up Blam tweeters and had 8" on the way, i got the tweeters in, and took my rta, and went to town with dsp. I hounestly didn't had to do much, for sure I had to lower gains on them by 5-6 db from previous driver. It was flat! And right away i noticed huge change, detail, crisp warm sound not overwhelming, it was very nutral, presented with sound and detail of what i was after for a very long time. I was in haven!

Than Blam 8" came in, took Focal MW8 out and replaced them with Blam... Without even any tuning, any adjustments, i had much more impect on my dash, chest hitting drums, much more presented, and took **** ton of power. I could get away with just the misbass in the door.. minding you all i have 18" SI in Tru IB! 

All that being said, i really enjoy them, and at this point after trying almost all brands .. this hit the spot with sound and quality of what i was after. I can't wait to get pillars in and get that going. Being -25 with wind, i don't feel like freezing my ass in garage 

For one, they look really good and build quality is beautiful. You can't go wrong with Blam. Some porn pics  


Just to make things worse, i had someone that competes get in my car over the weekend.. i started the music and showed them how to use things in the car, for them to get in to comfort zone, i left the car and let him have fun!.

30 minutes later still in the car... When he got out simply said Amazing, love it! I want it!

Mario

































































Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cisco473 (Mar 13, 2021)

You realize the guy you’re turning to for advice on blam hates the owner of audiofrog right?  I don’t know what the best is by far as I’m barely, starting, to think about entering the sq entry level world but what I do know if this site if very clicky and I wouldn’t trust a biased opinion or those of the people close to them. Somebody posted a while ago how every few years there’s this new “greatest thing on the block” and suddenly everybody goes chasing it. These blam sound like the that thing. Hopefully they’re everything that’s being said about them and more. Who knows? Maybe I’ll buy into the hype.  good luck! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I’m vaguely aware of the history there and can confidently tell you that regardless of that, I still have completely confidence in his recommendations. I’ve talked with plenty of owners of his past builds and know that he’s transparent and offers a quality end product. Period.

I don’t disagree there are certainly some fads when it comes to high end car audio. But when it comes to the details and deciphering my goals vs what is available on the market vs. budget, I am going heavily weigh the advice of someone who is constantly working with these products, the good and bad aspects.

I also don’t think BLAM is a one off, trying to take the market by storm by being hip or trendy. If you dig into BLAM and what Guy’s objectives were with his company, it’s got great intentions and execution in my opinion. It’s his retirement, passion project designed to create a boutique speaker company with a small line of quality products with a unique 2 ohm approach. He has openly said that he not trying to make this a large scale, online retailer company and wants to retain an intimate control on their product. His experience from Focal is revered and has the track record to prove it. I’m willing to dig into BLAM and see what it has to offer and not just because Nick said so.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

It would be nice to see some real testing and reviews like from Erin or anyone.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Selkec said:


> It would be nice to see some real testing and reviews like from Erin or anyone.


That would be cool, but I'm not sending my driver's 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

quickaudi07 said:


> That would be cool, but I'm not sending my driver's
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Blam should send a set off


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Selkec said:


> Blam should send a set off


I don't see morel doing it, or focal, unless they really want too. Otherwise you have the spectrum testing sheets online. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Would certainly love to see some testing on the WS8.100 and any of their signature tweeters, either the 20 or 25mm versions


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

For me hounestly won't matter. As long as I enjoy them that's All it matters. 
They will sound different in each car and in different install application, so all this testing won't be apple to apple. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Another factor that really gets missed (in my opinion) is "type of music listened too"! Someone who listens to Classical music is going to want a different set-up than a Rap fan...

I rarely see people say things like "What's the best speakers for Jazz? Or Prog-Rock? Or even "What's the best speaker to make Country music enjoyable?" _(LOL, sorry no offense...)_


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

Mythos you are very much on point there. I think of the speaker suspension a lot when I think of the different styles you mention as just one area where different styles would prefer different levels of 'stiffness'.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

It's a valid point but I can truthfully say I listen to nearly everything...



https://open.spotify.com/playlist/45xmr4p2LWyETfxNMk2TtL?si=2099db79e27047cc



That's my reference playlist I'll use during/after tuning.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Yes, also it's important if you are having a shop do your tune, to provide (or tell) them what you primarily listen to. I have a CD player in my vehicle and for the best sound I burn WAV files and here is the CD list I have been using to tune to. Keep in mind this is not music I listen every day, week or month, it is music that I have heard a million times in my life and know EXACTLY how it is supposed to sound OR there are songs that has instrumentation consistent with other stuff I listen to. Oh and most all of them are remastered. I also favor instrumentation over vocals.










_Yeah, I know I'm old...lol_


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

Cisco473 said:


> You realize the guy you’re turning to for advice on blam hates the owner of audiofrog right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


irrespective of that, i think both @SkizeR and @GotFrogs would fully agree that the thing that matters MOST in car audio is 1. installation, and 2. Tuning. the equipment is dead last so long as it is generally suitable for car audio and has the tuning capabilities called for in the install and goals. once that is done, it ma be that some equipment differences are notable, but at that point it comes down to taste, build, suitability for the specific install and so on. it seems doubtful that given a high quality install with good tuning that anyone will be disappointed irrespective of the particular items used.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

vactor said:


> irrespective of that, i think both @SkizeR and @GotFrogs would fully agree that the thing that matters MOST in car audio is 1. installation, and 2. Tuning. the equipment is dead last so long as it is generally suitable for car audio and has the tuning capabilities called for in the install and goals. once that is done, it ma be that some equipment differences are notable, but at that point it comes down to taste, build, suitability for the specific install and so on. it seems doubtful that given a high quality install with good tuning that anyone will be disappointed irrespective of the particular items used.


This! <3



MythosDreamLab said:


> Yes, also it's important if you are having a shop do your tune, to provide (or tell) them what you primarily listen to. I have a CD player in my vehicle and for the best sound I burn WAV files and here is the CD list I have been using to tune to. Keep in mind this is not music I listen every day, week or month, it is music that I have heard a million times in my life and know EXACTLY how it is supposed to sound OR there are songs that has instrumentation consistent with other stuff I listen to. Oh and most all of them are remastered. I also favor instrumentation over vocals.
> 
> _Yeah, I know I'm old...lol_


Roundabout is a GREAT add to this playlist. And totally agreed, a lot of this is music I know really well and listen to often. Nick knows my taste music wise and will be tuning it as well. I am probably most inexperienced in recognizing which house curve fits closest to my taste but again I know Nick will be able to navigate that and I can sprinkle on some adjustments as I get more comfortable in the Helix software/REW.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Cisco473 said:


> You realize the guy you’re turning to for advice on blam hates the owner of audiofrog right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where did I once say "dump X brand and go with Y brand instead"?? I never once even compared the two, so please, cut the crap. Andy and I can coexist without messing with each other, and that's how I have been proceeding for months now. Him, no idea as I do not pay attention. I just offer help when people ask. But its almost as if you think I am only here to make money. What kind of business owner would I be if I focused my business time to sell to people on here, few bucks here and there, vs focusing on the 5 million dollars worth of cars I have lined up already for the new shop? That would be silly of me, and would probably explain that I'm pretty much just here to help and kill time.


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## Cisco473 (Mar 13, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Where did I once say "dump X brand and go with Y brand instead"?? I never once even compared the two, so please, cut the crap. Andy and I can coexist without messing with each other, and that's how I have been proceeding for months now. Him, no idea as I do not pay attention. I just offer help when people ask. But its almost as if you think I am only here to make money. What kind of business owner would I be if I focused my business time to sell to people on here, few bucks here and there, vs focusing on the 5 million dollars worth of cars I have lined up already for the new shop? That would be silly of me, and would probably explain that I'm pretty much just here to help and kill time.


It’s not crap. Lol it’s the truth. You don’t have to say don’t use x brand. Use y brand. I’m a salesman and I know how to sway people one way or another depending on what works best for me for the situation at hand. If you’ve got 5 million lined up with your new partnership, you didn’t do it without knowing how to sell. Installers are everywhere. If you don’t know that people are buying you, your knowledge, etc, not the product, I’d be very surprised. With that said, congrats on your new partnership! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> ……vs focusing on the 5 million dollars worth of cars I have lined up already for the new shop?


Is that 1 Koenigsegg build or 200 Honda Civic builds? 😁


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Is that 1 Koenigsegg build or 200 Honda Civic builds? 😁


Believe it ir not, almost. Customer was allocated a new Koenigsegg, but decided he didn't want it. He doesn't buy cars he can't resell for a profit lol


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## Turb0Yoda (Jan 4, 2019)

Can you buy the WS8.100 separately?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

To my understanding. Yes.


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## Turb0Yoda (Jan 4, 2019)

Anyone able to give a price out on it? cough nick hi cough. I'm just assuming 800$ right now


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

The MSRP is $1250/pair according to my dealer sheet.


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## Turb0Yoda (Jan 4, 2019)

My current buildsheet looks absolutely balanced with a pair of those, some AD MM4s, and MT-450s lmao... Guess I _do_ have this year to save up lol


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Niebur3 said:


> The MSRP is $1250/pair according to my dealer sheet.


You a Blam dealer Jerry?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DaveG said:


> You a Blam dealer Jerry?


Yep, sure am.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

That's a high price $

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

quickaudi07 said:


> That's a high price $
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


It is MSRP and that's what I'm required to show online.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

Anyone who has ever had a transactional experience with Niebur3 i pretty much guarantee sings his praises regarding every aspect of it. i know i do ! but if Nick @SkizeR is local to you, he's the cat's meow (or the bee's knees) which i believe is a positive accolade


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Jerry is a fantastic seller. You won't be disapointed.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

I delt with Jerry before.. he's outstanding !

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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Ditto, Jerry was excellent to purchase from and super helpful as for any and all questions I had. And gave me a very fair price for my Audio Frog GS set!

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## oldieHawn (Mar 31, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Yup I saw your link after I posted and edited my post.
> 
> The ws8.100 looks like a better choice for a 2-way but the ws8.120 should have a lot more output from 60-100. Depending on price, etc, if you go with option 3.
> 
> I suspect they will both have more midbass than the 6.5” woofer you are considering but will be more work to install.


This is interesting. Anyone have any experience with the ws8.120 as midbass? OP is it an option that you have discussed with Nick?

WS8.100
2ohm
150rms
Fr: 50hz-3.8khz
Sd: 214cm^2
Xmax: 6mm
Fs: 42hz
Qts: 0.65








ws8.120
2ohm
150rms
Fr: 56hz-500hz
Sd: 186cm^2
Xmax: 9mm
Fs: 48.6hz
Qts: 0.62


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

We haven't gone too far down that road yet but will catch with Nick when he gets from vacation and gets caught up. I'm not going to move into 3 way until later this year when I can invest into some custom pillar/pod work through Nick. I am sure we will run through a few options but that WS8.120 looks like a solid option as well for a true mid-bass in a 3 way. Depth seems to work in either option.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The 120 is a subwoofer. The 100 is a midbass. You do not need the 120 as a midbass. Stop being silly you lunatics, lol


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

I missed the much smaller sd on the ws8.120 as well. Based on that, and the very high fs, I don’t think it would be much better than the ws8.100 even with the 33% higher xmax.


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## oldieHawn (Mar 31, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> The 120 is a subwoofer. The 100 is a midbass. You do not need the 120 as a midbass. Stop being silly you lunatics, lol


Well it does have very mild specs for a sub, right? How would the 120 compare to jl zr800's that everyone seems to go nuts over (the specs aren't crazy different)?

I don't know enough to know why it's a lunatic proposition, would love to understand that so I'm not running into dead end ideas so often, haha.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Stop being silly you lunatics, lol


By now you know this is par for my course lmao


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_Bronco said:


> I missed the much smaller sd on the ws8.120 as well. Based on that, and the very high fs, I don’t think it would be much better than the ws8.100 even with the 33% higher xmax.


There is more to a low-frequency producing driver than its FS and xmax. There is LE, CMS, MMS, VAS, and more. These ALL come into play and affect how the driver behaves.




oldieHawn said:


> Well it does have very mild specs for a sub, right? How would the 120 compare to jl zr800's that everyone seems to go nuts over (the specs aren't crazy different)?
> 
> I don't know enough to know why it's a lunatic proposition, would love to understand that so I'm not running into dead end ideas so often, haha.


Of course it has mild specs for a sub. It's a pretty shallow 8", so not sure what you would expect. You want to compare the 120 to the ZR800, but I'm still not sure why. The 120 is a subwoofer. The ZR800 is a mid-woofer (midbass). These two types are not comparable as they are used for two different things. Let me show you guys.


So, yes, at a quick glance, the BLAM WS120.8 and 100.8 look similar, but the 120 seems to outshine it as it has more xmax. I know, you guys go crazy for some good xmax. But like in the bedroom, it's not about the length, it's about how you use it. Guy Boneville, the owner/designer of BLAM and its products knows what he's doing. He wouldn't list a driver as a midbass, and one that looks to be a better midbass as a subwoofer. So here we have the models.

Picture 1: We have the BLAM WS100.8 and WS120.8 with all of their appropriate specs put into Winisd. To achieve a 0.707 QTC, Winisd suggested the following enclosures, resulting in the following predicted response for each driver with the 100 in yellow ending up with a 12.4 cubic foot enclosure, and the 120 in blue with a 1.17 cubic foot enclosure. Yeah, okay. Not so close after all. At first glance, the WS100.8 even seems to play lower than the WS120.8 (but, the WS100 does play higher).. No. Gotta keep looking deeper.













Picture 2: Putting in their suggested power of 150 watts, here is what their xmax looks like in these suggested enclosures. Now things may start making a bit of sense. The 100's xmax shoots to the god damn moon while the 120 stays relatively composed as it nears its FS. I can only imagine this is from the much lower CMS (stiffer suspension)













Picture 3: In order to keep the drivers within their respective xmax (9mm for the 120, 6mm for the 100), we applied 24db LR high pass filters. To get the 120 at 9mm, we needed to apply that filter at 30hz. To get the 100 to 6mm, we need to apply that filter at 64hz. The reason this happens is going to come down to CMS. As a driver plays lower and closer to its FS is when the motor stops taking control and the suspension comes in to handle it. If it has a lower CMS (stiffer), it can be controlled better).
















Picture 4: Keeping everything the same and switching over the SPL screen, we can see each driver's theoretical frequency response and output. I don't think I need to explain what you are seeing here. If I do need to explain, the sub is acting as a sub, and the midbass is acting as a midbass. WOW, never would have guessed lol.
















Since you were asking about the ZR800 vs the 120 (not sure why since one is a mid-woofer and one is a subwoofer), I added that to the mix. 150 watts and a high pass that kept it at its xmax limit (turned out to be 55hz) were applied. Here is the end result in pink. To sum it up for you, it has more output in the 40 to 100hz regionf but has much lower output than the WS100.8 above 100hz due to its, frankly, nasty, high Q peak (has a QTS over 1) and inductance-based roll-off (has a 0.9 LE vs the WS100.8 LE, which is 0.15)















To sum it up, these manufacturers aren't trying to lead you wrong. Stop obsessing over only xmax and FS. Look at the bigger picture. If you don't know how to figure this stuff out on your own as I did above, that's fine. Rule of thumb, they're most likely not bullshitting you. Why would a company sell you something inferior when they have something superior? That would be silly.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Dude, you went to a lot of effort to prove my point.

Based on those plots, the ws8.120 is a midbass, and it’s not much better than the ws8.100. In fact it looks worse, though I suspect if you cross it at 55 like you did the ws8.100, it will increase the spl around 100 hz (can’t model it on my work computer so I’m having to guess based on the parameters, but it’s gonna hit xmax down low and then winisd just draws a curve through that point).

they can call it a subwoofer if they want but if it’s rolling off at 80 hz, it’s not a subwoofer.

even in their marketing material they state the usable low end as 56 hz.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Dude, you went to a lot of effort to prove my point.



ignorance, my friend. I'm going to break down your response and try my best to give you the info you may be unaware of that helps explain.




SQ_Bronco said:


> Based on those plots, the ws8.120 is a midbass, and it’s not much better than the ws8.100. In fact it looks worse,


I'd really hope you are mixing up the two, or are only looking at the very first picture. Remember, the 100 is in yellow, the 120 is in blue. All things considered, we need to look at the thoretical SPL, not its transfer function. Transfer function just shows the general shape of the response. SPL shows that shape, as well as its theoretical output in dB based on its specs, enclosure, filters applied, and power applied. In the SPL graph, the 120 blows the 100 out of the water at any frequency below 70hz. You can see this in the xmax graph as well (picture 2). While the 120 may have a slightly higher FS, it also has a much stiffer suspension and keeps its proverbial **** together when this driver plays at or near said FS. Subwoofers will need a relatively stiffer suspension because we play them near, at, and below FS. This is the reason for the higher FS in this case. The 120 has a higher MMS due to a bigger coil, but the MMS change isnt enough to equal out or even lower the FS compared to the 100. But, this doesnt really matter much, as seen in the graphs above.





SQ_Bronco said:


> though I suspect if you cross it at 55 like you did the ws8.100, it will increase the spl around 100 hz (can’t model it on my work computer so I’m having to guess based on the parameters,


Here ya go. The answer is.. nope. I honestly have no clue why you assumed this. This is with a 55hz 24dB LR crossover, and i even made the enclosure the same 12 cubes to match the 100. As a midbass, the 100 destroys this thing SO LONG AS we are comparing with an equal amount of power. Most people arent going to send the 500 watts required with this enclosure and crossover configuration to make this hit the 9mm xmax. But even if one of you lunatics does want to do that, you will only be gaining literally 0.75dB at 80hz. You gain a bit more below that, but thats what a subwoofer is for (and even then, the 100 is still a monster. Cross em at 60hz and let em rip. Thats how we use them..) If someone is reading this and is ignorant enough to go with the 120 for a midbass and throw a ton of power at it, you deserve your money being wasted lol
























SQ_Bronco said:


> but it’s gonna hit xmax down low and then winisd just draws a curve through that point).


The graphs/curves in any modeling software is purely based off math equations that define how speakers work, so... idk what the point of even saying this is.








SQ_Bronco said:


> they can call it a subwoofer if they want but if it’s rolling off at 80 hz, it’s not a subwoofer.


Sorry my man, but this is again, ignorance. Again, this is an anechoic model. This is no room gain. Find me an 8" subwoofer that doesnt have roll off in the 80s. Please.
Here is one of those MONDO Sundown subs. Xv3 d2 8" to be exact. Even that has roll off well before 80hz (as a matter of fact, it seems to "roll off" well above 100hz. Does this make it "not a subwoofer"??). This is just how smaller drivers behave, unless you design it to require a gigantic enclosure, which no car audio brand would waste their time doing, since their target demographic is going to be using small sealed enclosures. Long story short on this is, you don't get to write the dictionary on what a driver is and isnt. Sorry bud.


















SQ_Bronco said:


> even in their marketing material they state the usable low end as 56 hz.


well duh. Im pretty sure every car audio company uses a drivers FS as the low end of the "frequency range" spec, which is not a spec at all, just mostly useless marketing material.



Long story short, I'm just really hoping that you mixed up the two above lol


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

I’m gonna take a few hours before i respond to this substantively. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. I’ve been modeling drivers for 20+ years and have internalized most of the parameter relationships, but I admit I didn’t spend a lot of time looking at these before posting. 

even if I am wrong, you are running a business- do you really think it’s wise to respond the way you did to a thread in which we are are _trying to help someone buy something from you_? we even conceded that the 100 is probably the better driver. Your response was way out of line.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_Bronco said:


> but I admit I didn’t spend a lot of time looking at these before posting.


I know. Thats ok.



SQ_Bronco said:


> even if I am wrong, you are running a business- do you really think it’s wise to respond the way you did to a thread in which we are are _trying to help someone buy something from you_? we even conceded that the 100 is probably the better driver. Your response was way out of line.


Huh? How was my response out of line? All I did was, like you said, take time away from my business, to help the members of this forum with graphs from modeling. And no, the 100 isnt a better driver. Its a _different_ driver. Its a midwoofer. The 120 is a subwoofer.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

One is a midbass and one is a subwoofer because the midbass has a MUCH lower moving mass and 1/4 of the inductance with what appears to be the same magnet. I can't tell whether the top plate is the same or the inside diameter of the top plates. So, The midbass is optimized for efficiency and the suspension is very compliant in order to keep the Fs low. Adding mass to reduce the Fs would reduce efficiency. The midbass is clearly designed NOT to be used in a small enclosure (optimizing it for a little box would reduce efficiency--See Hoffman's Iron Law) -- and a door is a better place for this midbass driver--or in the rear package shelf. If I had to guess, I'd guess that the midbass driver is a 2-layer coil and the subwoofer is a 4-layer coil in looking at the Le and the BL numbers. The reason to shorten the coil in the midbass driver is 1) to save weight and 2) to get more turns in the gap. The most efficient motor is one with NO overhang--in which all the turns are in the gap. 

BL is the motor force FACTOR and (BL^2)/Re is motor force. BL is the force of the static magnet in the gap and L is the length of coil wire in the gap. Because in order for us to use B, it has to be present in the gap between the polepiece and the top plate ID. With smaller voice coil wire or fewer turns, the gap can be made smaller, which increases BL. With a thicker coil and heavier gauge wire, the gap has to be increased, which reduces BL.

The strength of the electromagnet is Turns x Amperes. Amperes is controlled by the coil's DCR and turns is determined by the gauge of the wire (smaller gauge makes it possible to put more turns in the gap). But, the DCR is determined by the length of the wire and its gauge. So, if the Nominal Impedance needs to be 2 ohms and efficiency is the goal, then the length of the wire is what gets adjusted. That reduces Xmax. Then, Fs and Qms (and ultimately Qts) is set with the surround compliance. Since this isn't intended to go in a box, that leaves some room to shape the low frequency response, and that's apparently what they did with the suspension here.

So, Nick is right when he says that you don't need and shouldn't consider a subwoofer an optimum midbass driver.

But here's one more thing. There's no Fs when a speaker goes in a box. Fs becomes Fc and Fs ceases to exist. In an infinite baffle, Fc is Fs. So when we're talking about BOXES, then Fc is where the the transition from stiffness controlled to motor controlled happens. This "control" is a misnomer because a stiffer suspension (smaller box) is actually LESS CONTROL (as seen in a higher Q) but the stiffness reduces excursion because the opposing force of the suspension becomes GREATER than the force of the motor. A better way to describe this is that below Fs, the suspension opposes the inertia of the moving mass and above Fs the motor provides the opposing force. The reason we need a suspension is because when the cone moves far enough for the coil to reach the edge of the gap, the motor force begins to reduce with additional excursion so this kind of becomes a device designed to destroy itself. Above Fs, excursion is not a problem and the motor works just fine. This is how we can get away with not having a spider on a tweeter, BTW.

The reason that distortion is high at and below Fs is because at Fs, nothing has any real control and below the suspension takes over. The suspension is like a parking break. The suspension CREATES distortion, but we kind of have to have one. And this is why we should cross midbass above resonance. For subwoofers, we have no choice.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Oh, one more thing. When you put a subwoofer in a sealed box and Fc rises to like 70Hz and you apply a low pass filter at 60Hz, there's no more Qtc. Choosing a subwoofer box volume by choosing a Qtc is a really good way to optimize the balance between low cutoff and no ripple FOR A HOME SPEAKER or a midbass driver in which the woofer will play much higher frequencies. But in cars where we cross at 60Hz or so, it's meaningless.

Meaningless. Doesn't matter. If you were crossing at 200 Hz, then maybe it would matter.


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Where did I once say "dump X brand and go with Y brand instead"?? I never once even compared the two, so please, cut the crap. Andy and I can coexist without messing with each other, and that's how I have been proceeding for months now. Him, no idea as I do not pay attention. I just offer help when people ask. But its almost as if you think I am only here to make money. What kind of business owner would I be if I focused my business time to sell to people on here, few bucks here and there, vs focusing on the 5 million dollars worth of cars I have lined up already for the new shop? That would be silly of me, and would probably explain that I'm pretty much just here to help and kill time.



supporting what you state about yourself I have seen many times over the years that you have assisted plenty of people plenty of times without expecting anything in return and contributed heavily to the forum.


however I cant help but notice you have not responded even once to the few private messages I sent nor does any of your responses (few to say the least) to my kindly asked questions here over on the forum have any guidance or value at all in it as if you intentionally just ignored me for some reason.

I always wondered why that is so? I know you dont like another Turkish member (Samet) as you stated it a few times and wonder if you are mixing him with me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

audiocholic said:


> supporting what you state about yourself I have seen many times over the years that you have assisted plenty of people plenty of times without expecting anything in return and contributed heavily to the forum.
> 
> 
> however I cant help but notice you have not responded even once to the few private messages I sent nor does any of your responses (few to say the least) to my kindly asked questions here over on the forum have any guidance or value at all in it as if you intentionally just ignored me for some reason.
> ...


I'm sorry, I didn't know that I owe anyone anything...

Also, you may be forgetting that there were periods of time where I wasn't here. He'll, there was a time period of maybe 6 months where I didn't even know my password to this site. Man, i kinda miss those days. Or you may be forgetting that I in fact owe nothing to anybody here. My time is valuable, and maybe you just sent me something not worth responding to. I have no idea. I get countless pm's here. Most go unresponded to because they're a waste of time and are most likely silly questions that could have just been Googled, or are asking me to plan their system out for them.. no thanks. Also, how would I have any clue if you are Turkish or not? That has nothing to do with it. But maybe if you came into my pm's in a manner similar to how Samet does, that may explain why you got no answer lol


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## alligatorman (Sep 7, 2010)

RickWilson said:


> Long term contemplating what my 3 way active set up will be.
> 
> System will have a Helix V8 (75W x 8 @ 4 ohms or 120W x 8 @ 2 ohms) plus a JL HD750.1.
> 
> ...


I have the Signature 4" and Tweet in my BMW M2, as well as the Audison 8" midbass under the front seats.
Absolutely love it - smooth tweeter with great detail, voices are on point, especially after upgrading to the Fischer UP7 amp. 
Low noise, great DSP and powerful for this setup. This was pre-DSP on my front right stage.


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## INFRNL (Feb 19, 2021)

Niebur3 said:


> The MSRP is $1250/pair according to my dealer sheet.


just for clarification; i'm guessing this is just for the 8.100's? Thanks


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

INFRNL said:


> just for clarification; i'm guessing this is just for the 8.100's? Thanks


Correct


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## INFRNL (Feb 19, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Correct


Thanks, I figured the 200.300 set had to be quite a bit more. That makes for a pricey set of 8's


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

INFRNL said:


> Thanks, I figured the 200.300 set had to be quite a bit more. That makes for a pricey set of 8's


you can’t buy the s200.300 as a set from my understanding but the sum are the parts are as follows:

WS8.100 is $1,250, MS3.55 is $500 and TSM25S45 is $450

and they are pricey but for their performance, they are a stellar 8” mid bass specs wise and uniquely offered as 2 ohm


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## INFRNL (Feb 19, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> you can’t buy the s200.300 as a set from my understanding but the sum are the parts are as follows:
> 
> WS8.100 is $1,250, MS3.55 is $500 and TSM25S45 is $450
> 
> and they are pricey but for their performance, they are a stellar 8” mid bass specs wise and uniquely offered as 2 ohm


Thank you, much appreciated
That's kind of good, I think. To me it doesn't make sense to use a tweeter if the MS3.55 is a wideband and plays up to 27K, but maybe I just don't understand. with my older ears, I'd be lucky to hear to 15K anymore.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

As this has been a popular topic lately, I’ll leave the more experienced guys on here comment on performance of a wideband + 8 inch combo.

My understanding in terms of performance (from strongest to weakest):

3 Way (8” midbass + largest midrange you can fit + tweeter)
2 Way (8” midbass + wideband)
2 Way (6/6.6” mid-woofer + large format tweet (~1.5”)

but installation, location and axis performance also makes quite the difference (per usual)


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

RickWilson said:


> As this has been a popular topic lately, I’ll leave the more experienced guys on here comment on performance of a wideband + 8 inch combo.
> 
> My understanding in terms of performance (from strongest to weakest):
> 
> ...


I like your ranking, but I would place 3 Way (6.5 midbass + small midrange + tweeter) ahead of any 2 Way. I'll put this in the number 2 spot


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## jlx40 (Aug 14, 2014)

Stycker said:


> I like your ranking, but I would place 3 Way (6.5 midbass + small midrange + tweeter) ahead of any 2 Way. I'll put this in the number 2 spot


I agree completely. I have never heard a wideband that could replace a really good tweeter, nevermind a great tweeter. This includes recording studio monitors, home audio and auto sound. I have used widebands as mids though in a few cars


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Stycker said:


> I like your ranking, but I would place 3 Way (6.5 midbass + small midrange + tweeter) ahead of any 2 Way. I'll put this in the number 2 spot


I def should have included that clarification. I meant to imply that most any 3 way set up (regardless of midbass size) is going to outperform any 2 speaker configuration. (From my limited experience)


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Jroo said:


> cant speak anything about BLAM because the only place it has been referenced is on the internet in a forum. I can say that I have heard that exact AF 3 way and I was very impressed. Like very impressed.
> 
> My assumption is BLAM are very good, just would have to hear them in person


And some testing like from Erin would be nice. Not being negative but it’s all just word of mouth from what I’ve seen and anyone paying the prices that blam is and reading the hype are going to say they sound awesome.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

Selkec said:


> And some testing like from Erin would be nice. Not being negative but it’s all just word of mouth from what I’ve seen and anyone paying the prices that blam is and reading the hype are going to say they sound awesome.


I agree but it seems like he’s only doing home speaker reviews these days, Ge0 did get his hands on a couple Blams. Post #25









Ge0-logy, the study of speakers, as reviewed by the...


Review: ScanSpeak 10F midrange paired with D3004 silk dome midrange I currently have 5 of these midranges mounted in my car. So, I had the unique opportunity to evaluate these drivers both in vehicle and on my test bench. Prior to starting these evaluations I was under the...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I hear you (and yes I bought them and have high expectations naturally) but I truly trust Nick's recommendation and real world experience with speaker line. I think specification wise they certainly make a great first impression as well. I was legit pushing Nick to get the Utopia TBM and 3.5WM (another $600-800 MSRP for him) and he talked me off that mentality of always moving the goal posts of what I want to achieve with my build (entering heavy diminishing returns at this point) and to focus on the important factors (installation, a quality tune and good hardware). I'll have finally have that final piece now in a 3 way and with Nick's tune coming soon - I am confident I'll finally have hit my goal.



clange2485 said:


> I agree but it seems like he’s only doing home speaker reviews these days, Ge0 did get his hands on a couple Blams. Post #25
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read this as well before I bought the BLAMs and certainly drove Nick insane asking about the BLAM MS3/MG 45 Tweet vs Morel MM3/Alto vs Utopia 3.5WM vs Dyna 430/110 vs Thesis Voce/Violino and at that level of hardware, I think tuning is much more influential than the piece of hardware itself. My decision became more driven by the install location and what I could fit with major modification into my dash as stealth and ability to return to OEM (company truck) are important objectives in my build.

Hopefully this doesn't come off defensive haha, truthfully would love to see Erin test this set. Or at least the WS8.100/MS3


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

I hope you like them too Rick, because in the end, that's all that really matters - YOU LIKING THEM....!

I have very little recent car stereo experience, although I ran my first 3-way set up using home Philips Tweeter & Phillips Midranges, mated with a 8" Radio Shack Woofer, all powered by one of the VERY FIRST consumer AM/FM Cassette with RCA outputs and a separate Amp back around 1975/76...! The brand was WESTPORT and it sounded pretty awesome. Even had the cops called on me for playing it too loud in a buddy's driveway - during the DAY...!

Had a set of Infinity 3-way 6x9's with the Emit Tweeter back in the 80's, in the 90's had a couple of nice set-ups utilizing a.d.s, MB Quart, PPI, Alpine, Yamaha, Sony and Kenwood gear...

Anyway, I loved the Focal Utopia TBXP Beryllium Tweeters in my 165W-XP set, the highs were crisp, precise and clean, they really sizzled! And I was "this close" to mating them up with a set of 3.5WM's and I'm sure I would have been happy with.

But since I already had the Thesis Violino's in the rear C-Pillars, I decided to get the Voce's and just go for it...!

I met a guy here (DIY) and met up with him and played my Focal 2-ways and he loved the way the sounded, so when I finally sold them, he bought them. When we met up to do the deal, I played my full Thesis 3-way front sound stage for him, I played a few songs that demonstrated just how perfect (yep, I said perfect) they sound. Well, two weeks later, he told me he was going with the same full Thesis 3-way set up (not sure what's gonna become of the Focal Utopia set...lol)

So if you and the family, are ever out here to go to Disneyland, give me hollar, and I'm sorry to say, I might just cost you some more money...lol


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

lets throw in the mix some ZR Speaker Labs 😆 (partybreaker.tm)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LBaudio said:


> lets throw in the mix some ZR Speaker Labs 😆 (partybreaker.tm)


Most overpriced speakers I've ever used..


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

clange2485 said:


> I agree but it seems like he’s only doing home speaker reviews these days, Ge0 did get his hands on a couple Blams. Post #25
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks for that link. That was a lot of reading but that’s the kinda stuff I like to see.


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