# What was the last series of good Precision Power?



## JAX

I might get one to try out casue they always had great specs before they were moved...

problem is I dont know what the good ones are other than the ART series and they seem ot cost to much ...most of the time.....

welll not like a PG ZPA but I want them to be cheaper..


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## durwood

I never used them but I remember the gray/silver or all black oval ones (smooth top) where the heat sink was invertered and on the inside were pretty good back around the late 90's. You might be able to find them cheap sometimes.

Example
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/PPI_PC2150/


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## 89grand

I would say the very last "good" ones were the PCX series. The looked similar to the PC series, which were the dark grey oval ones, but they where silver and were slightly different shaped. Here's one.


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## Luke

A couple of my friends used to have some of those PPI amps. Don't remember much, but they seemed to be pretty good. 

A word of warning though, some had this modular power plug that you connected the power, ground, and remote to and then plugged it into the amp. If you do this though make sure the power wire isn't connected to the battery as it was really easy to fry the amp when plugging it in.


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## 02bluesuperroo

PCX is the transition series. Some are good, some are not. 

If you want to be safe stay with the PC series. IE. PC2600, PC2400 like the first response stated.


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## 02bluesuperroo

Luke said:


> A couple of my friends used to have some of those PPI amps. Don't remember much, but they seemed to be pretty good.
> 
> A word of warning though, some had this modular power plug that you connected the power, ground, and remote to and then plugged it into the amp. If you do this though make sure the power wire isn't connected to the battery as it was really easy to fry the amp when plugging it in.


Every PPI amp has this plug AFAIK.


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## 89grand

On my Art series amps, I have connected and disconnected them many times with the battery wire connected. There's no reason it would fry the amp, assuming that the plug was wired correctly. If it fried the amps by plugging in the connector with the battery wire connected, it would still fry the amp even if the wire was disconnected once you connected it at the battery since it's the same thing.


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## 89grand

02bluesuperroo said:


> Every PPI amp has this plug AFAIK.


Well, from the Art series on up they do.


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## Luke

89grand said:


> On my Art series amps, I have connected and disconnected them many times with the battery wire connected. There's no reason it would fry the amp, assuming that the plug was wired correctly. If it fried the amps by plugging in the connector with the battery wire connected, it would still fry the amp even if the wire was disconnected once you connected it at the battery since it's the same thing.


What can happen is that when you plug it in, its possible to touch the power to the ground on the amp or remote (maybe that's different on your model). One of my friends did this and I remember when we took it back to the dealer he told that had happened to several people.


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## JAX

well....I personally unhook the power from the battery until the amps hooked up...so I cant fry the amp.......nuts....


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## lucas569

ah the glory days  

i remember when i worked at Car Tunes we could get PPI at 10% over cost, i had like 4 of them... i so regret selling them. imho i think the Art series were the best ones....


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## 02bluesuperroo

I had a Sedona series back in the day that had a plug too. I don't know if those were before, after, or concurrent with the Art series? I would guess at the same time but a lower line maybe?


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## quality_sound

Sedona was after the Art series IIRC.


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## 89grand

quality_sound said:


> Sedona was after the Art series IIRC.


They made Sedona series amps during the time of the Art Series, it was their budget line, like everyone else was doing back then like RF series 1, Orion Cobalt etc.


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## Cancerkazoo

I've heard the PC series was.

I have a PC450 and it's always been a good amp. Haven't used it in a feew years though.


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## rcurley55

^^^those


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## Lanson

See, I don't know what to say, because I picked up the cherry-plexi'd ones made just a year or so ago..I think they were the DCX series. A lot of people called them the Starship Enterprise models, because the metal covers looked like a space ship. Of course, you can remove them all, and end up with a nice, clean looking semi-transparent dark cherry plexi-topped amp, like I have them now.

Thing is, I've had zero problems with them, and they sound great. So, to me they were a good series.


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## Lanson

Double post...wtf.


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## Pseudonym

all ppi amps are fine. even the newest ones. the pc line and before were just overbuilt and amazing though. the pcx line was done both before and after their directed change. i loved my pcx's and even my lower line older amps (same era as the pc's).


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## CMR22

rcurley55 said:


> ^^^those


Show off


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## tyroneshoes

I havent had a complaint with any PPI amp I ever used, incuding the penis shaped etnterprise models mentioned. People love the old school stuff and it was probably better as far as quality control, but I think theyre still goodamps.


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## dawgdan

fourthmeal said:


> See, I don't know what to say, because I picked up the cherry-plexi'd ones made just a year or so ago..I think they were the DCX series. A lot of people called them the Starship Enterprise models, because the metal covers looked like a space ship. Of course, you can remove them all, and end up with a nice, clean looking semi-transparent dark cherry plexi-topped amp, like I have them now.
> 
> Thing is, I've had zero problems with them, and they sound great. So, to me they were a good series.


I've heard the same thing about them - good amps. 

But I can't help but notice some sort of RoboPenis thing going on.. *shrug*









Maybe I'm just a perv. LOL.


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## dawgdan

tyroneshoes said:


> I havent had a complaint with any PPI amp I ever used, incuding the penis shaped etnterprise models mentioned. People love the old school stuff and it was probably better as far as quality control, but I think theyre still goodamps.


HAH! Beat me to the e-peen reference. LOL


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## 89grand

It's too bad if the DCX are good amps, because they look so stupid and cheesy, I'd probably never run one. Just because it looks like a swap meet amp.


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## cjj2d

I am an avid PPI fan.... absolutely love their amps.... well the old school ones. I have a closet full of PPI equitpment along with a car full.

I have used the Sedona Series, Art Series, and original PC series. and all of them have been awesome. The PC series and Art Series are built like tanks with strong power and great SQ.

I currently have:

2 x PC 2150's
2 x PC 250's
1 x PC 2100
1 x PC 450
1 x PC 2350 (this sucker is the haus of amps!!!)
1 x Art a404
1 x Sedona 100iqx

and 1 FRX-456 crossover (PC black series, still brand new, mint condition never used)


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## Lanson

89grand said:


> It's too bad if the DCX are good amps, because they look so stupid and cheesy, I'd probably never run one. Just because it looks like a swap meet amp.


Like I said though, all that metal comes right off, leaving a clean, simple amp w/ a pretty dark cherry plexi top.


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## 89grand

fourthmeal said:


> Like I said though, all that metal comes right off, leaving a clean, simple amp w/ a pretty dark cherry plexi top.


That's right. I think I remember seeing a picture. It didn't look half bad with all the gay stuff off of it.


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## Sr SQ

I think these were the best version....but as you can see I might be a little biased


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## 89grand

Ah, come on. Several of those amps don't even have RCA's connected to them. Get 'em hooked up sheeit!


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## JAX

wow...your bragging...


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## Luke

fourthmeal said:


> Like I said though, all that metal comes right off, leaving a clean, simple amp w/ a pretty dark cherry plexi top.


pic?


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## Sr SQ

89grand said:


> Ah, come on. Several of those amps don't even have RCA's connected to them. Get 'em hooked up sheeit!


Haha that was during the install. I run the 5 on the back wall for a while but that was pretty busy. They were simple and plain amps with lots of power, their down side was the Moldex plugs and they didn't like low impedences ( need the ProMos version for that) however still my favorite series from PPI


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## Lanson

Luke said:


> pic?


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## CMR22

Wow, that is much better looking. I had no idea you could do that or I would have bought a couple when the local place was clearing them out.


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## 02bluesuperroo

wow, touche. Those don't look half bad like that.

Only 89743123894719237498x better than the e-bulge.


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## jrouter76

Sr SQ said:


> I think these were the best version....but as you can see I might be a little biased


thats just wrong


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## Lanson

yeah, plus they take up 1/3 less space. Which is why I did it in the first place. Those amps replaced my aging and underpowered (for my needs at the time) MRV-F450 Alpine 5ch, which replaced my Antique MTX Blue Thunder 754 + 1502 combo. 

Regarding these PPI's, I recently got them back, after I loaned them indefinitely to a family member. That means for one of the first times in my life, I actually have unused amps sitting around.


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## Luke

fourthmeal said:


>


Thank you. Actually, I think that looks pretty good.


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## jmacdadd

Personally, I am an original Art Series fanatic. The post Mosfet Series (M/AM) and pre .2 Series. The original series offered the best SQ in my opinion. The .2 Series was geared for competition. The beefed up power supplies and outputs didn't generate the sound quality in the mids and highs like the originals. However, the low output was greatly improved as a result. Also, my personal opinion is that the original PC Series (charcoal metallic sinks) were the last true PPI Precision Power made amps. I am almost 99% sure everything after that is post bankruptcy....Phaze Audio, Butler Audio and eventually DEI. My personal collection, from pre M/AM Series to PC Series consists of nearly 60 amps. These range from production dates beginning in 1989 and ending in roughly 1998. Most have never been repaired. Some have been repaired as they were received that way or received in need of repair. I have sold off more than I can remember. PPI manufactured boards for a lot of companies back in the day. They scaled them down so they weren't "true" PPI and some of those companies were: MTX, Sansui, Phillips Sounds Labs, Lanzar and Crutchfield. Let me know if you would like to try out one of these amps as I have plenty to around and should be able to make you a decent deal on one. Thanks and best wishes for amazing audio!


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## Luke352

Got a friend selling a PC4100 the limited edition 15th anniversary model, think he is after about $500 USD ono if anyone's interested.

This one http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/PPI_PC4100/


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## tdiantonio

I have owned the sedona series ...which was excellent for an entry level amp
I also worked at a shop for a number of years that carried the art series...they sounded awesome

You guys are making me all nostaligic...and have me thinking i should sell my soundstream class a amps and go back to the art series...lol 

jmacdadd - what are all the signal processors you have in the lower corner of the pic? any of them for sale? I am looking for a dcx 730 to replace my symmetry epx2.


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## St. Dark

Man, you asked a question there. As you've seen, lots of answers, lots of opinions. And each as valid as the other!

I will say, as hinted at earlier - the Art series (and the lower, unregulated Sedonas) were the last of the Bruce McMillan (sp?) designs. Jeff Scoon took him along with him when he left PPI and formed Xtant.
PowerClass and everything since was after this. Now, some of the earlier PC amps used regulated supplies and probably derived a lot of their design from the earlier ones, but that is the transition point in designer and also later ownership. 
Some people would pick this as the dividing line, but not to say that there haven't been bad-ass PPI's since.


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## tdiantonio

Has anyone ever used the PPI F1 amp?


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## jrouter76

fourthmeal said:


>


now those are some nice ass looking amps and they are solidly built I have the dcx 1000.4 very strong amp even if it is under DEI...tookmine apart to get a b etter look and it is solid.


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## WRX/Z28

Just keep in mind with the dcx's, if you take the cover off, you have to get shorter screws to put back in the plexi top. Lowes or home depot has them in the specialty fastener section. 

I beleive the last great ppi's were the charcoal heat sink'd PC series. They shared the same architecture with the art series, and just incorporated crossovers and such. IIRC, dei changed them to the pcx series, which was a totally different amp, and outsourced from over seas. 

I was always more fond of the .2's from the arts. Never noticed a degradation in sound quality compared to the originals, if anything they sounded a bit ballsier on the low end. Maybe i'll A/B test mine.  I might even be able to test against my PC650 then too. Now that I think about it, I'd really like to A/B a bunch of my old school amps. Guess I would have to finally install something good in the way of speakers in my car to do that though... lol


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## MaXaZoR

I own 3 of the PCX (4125, 480, 2200) series amps and I have mixed feeling about them. The incorporated crossovers are nice, but the Amps are HUGE. Also both my 4125, 480 had output transistors that suffered secondary breakdown, meaning that I would get noise coming from those channels. They have since been fixed and I'm very happy with them, but I guess this is common with these amps.


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## HondAudio

Luke352 said:


> Got a friend selling a PC4100 the limited edition 15th anniversary model, think he is after about $500 USD ono if anyone's interested.
> 
> This one http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/PPI_PC4100/


Niiice... I love the "transparent machinery" look 

...But I'm sticking with my Art Series


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## starboy869

nothing like class in an art series


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## OldOneEye

I believe that the PC might have been the last one made by Precision Power and nobody else. After that, they made the PCX which had issues. Directed bought them out right before CES (things were so bad that I believe Autotek blatantly stole their lightning bolt logo and started using it thinking nobody would be around to send a cease and desist.

The PPI PCX were prone to issues from what I'm told (when you start running out of money, bad things happen. You might not pay suppliers, you might scale back QC, you might do lots of stuff you didn't do before. Other companies in similar positions had similar problems (although its a chicken or egg argument. Did the problems cause the bankruptcy or was the financial problems what caused the trouble with products not holding up?

PCX had gone offshore before Directed got a hold of them. They bought them, had little time to do anything with them, so they fixed what they could to bring the supply back online. That is what I remember from back then.

Juan


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## bmwpowere36m3

My little piece of audio art, A300:


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## HondAudio

bmwpowere36m3 said:


> My little piece of audio art, A300:


It's not nice to hide those beautiful amps


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## HondAudio

starboy869 said:


> nothing like class in an art series


Do you have any spare white plugs for an a300.2?


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## jimmyjames16

My ch!!tzz...


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## bmwpowere36m3

HondAudio said:


> It's not nice to hide those beautiful amps


SQ>BLING


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## HondAudio

Ax606.2... _want._


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## WRX/Z28

HondAudio said:


> It's not nice to hide those beautiful amps


True, mine are worse, they're hidden in my closet.


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## darcness

I just bought a Sedona APA630IX form CLE. Looking forward to putting it to work driving my comps. Amazing sets of PPI amps here, but I will only have the one. And it will be doing exactly what it was intended for.


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## St. Dark

WRX/Z28 said:


> I beleive the last great ppi's were the charcoal heat sink'd PC series. *They shared the same architecture with the art series*, and just incorporated crossovers and such.


SOME of them did...the larger ones. The middle and smaller ones had unregulated power supplies.

The genetic descendants of the Art series were available by then, with shrouds that said "Xtant".


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## OldOneEye

St. Dark said:


> SOME of them did...the larger ones. The middle and smaller ones had unregulated power supplies.
> 
> The genetic descendants of the Art series were available by then, with shrouds that said "Xtant".


and/or depending on who you believe, the Esoteric E7 line of amps as well. Dr. Stehen Leigh I guess was involved with that and was supposedly an upgraded PPI Art series.

Juan


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## musicjunky

I have to go with the PCX series that utilize a versatile combination of features like fully variable TC-X crossover, QBASS equalization and the Advanced Instrumentation Input..


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## starboy869

HondAudio said:


> Do you have any spare white plugs for an a300.2?


Sorry not really. I really only have two white plugs sets. One is super mint to go with my super mint ProArt 100. The other set is in poor condition to go with my poor condition ProArt100 which mostly likely will be for sale soon.


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## HondAudio

starboy869 said:


> Sorry not really. I really only have two white plugs sets. One is super mint to go with my super mint ProArt 100. The other set is in poor condition to go with my poor condition ProArt100 which mostly likely will be for sale soon.


Well shucks. I bought an a300.2 off eBay last year (or was it in 2006?) and it had black plugs 

Both of my other amps have white plugs. Clearly, you can see my problem :blush:


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## GlasSman

lucas569 said:


> ah the glory days
> 
> i remember when i worked at Car Tunes we could get PPI at 10% over cost, i had like 4 of them... i so regret selling them. imho i think the Art series were the best ones....


I bet you sold them DIRT CHEAP to friends. 

Luckily I'm an amp whore. Most every amp I've ever purchased out of enthusiasm I've kept.


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## GlasSman

bmwpowere36m3 said:


> SQ>BLING


THATS a flawed statement when we're talking about rock solid AMERICAN built power.


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## A8AWD

lucas569 said:


> ah the glory days
> 
> i remember when i worked at Car Tunes we could get PPI at 10% over cost, i had like 4 of them... i so regret selling them. imho i think the Art series were the best ones....


CarTunes?....Up with Richie in Beantown?? If so when did you work there?


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## Boostedrex

Starboy869, that is ONE HELL of a collection you've got there. Same goes for the amp master, Jmacdadd.

I've always preferred the Art series over anything else that ever came from PPI as far as SQ and build quality go.

Zach


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## W8 a minute

PC series is the last of the "good" PPI amplifiers and my favorite with the PC150 being one of my top amps of all time.

I got out of the installation biz just before the X series hit the streets. I got tired of working in shops where my paycheck bounced or the owner was under investigation from the local police or the DEA. Anyway, my buddy stuck around for a few more years and swears the failure rate on the X series amps skyrocketed compared to the previous PC series. I was always under the impression that ALL the X series amps were DEI and built offshore but I have seen some that say "made in USA" on them so I might be wrong. Juan (oldoneeye) may have the most accurate story here.

Like Juan, I was also told that some of this technology is still alive in the Diamond D7/Esoteric audio amplifiers but I have no way to confirm this.


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## starboy869

Boostedrex said:


> Starboy869, that is ONE HELL of a collection you've got there. Same goes for the amp master, Jmacdadd.
> 
> I've always preferred the Art series over anything else that ever came from PPI as far as SQ and build quality go.
> 
> Zach


That PASS A1200.2 isn't mine. However I do have a couple of ProArts 100. Still waiting on Blake to ship the Art series shroud set. 

BTW You can an PPI 2350 DM to the list. 350w x 2


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## vaj

starboy869 said:


> nothing like class in an art series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG. Wow... I remember seeing ONLY ONE of those ever in person... Amazing shape...


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## grampi

What happened to PPI amps?


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## GlasSman

Thats the look those amps should have had all along instead of all that scribbling.


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## starboy869

vaj said:


> starboy869 said:
> 
> 
> 
> nothing like class in an art series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG. Wow... I remember seeing ONLY ONE of those ever in person... Amazing shape...
> 
> 
> 
> wow... I've only ever seen pictures.
Click to expand...


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## vaj

I wonder how many of those goldies were ever made.. and _where_ they were made..


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## starboy869

vaj said:


> I wonder how many of those goldies were ever made.. and _where_ they were made..


I assume made in the USA and sold for the JAPANESE MARKET. I only knew of one A1200.2 for sale. However I do know of an A300 & A1200 gold plated with the art work for sale, BUT the price tag is well into the 4 digits.


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## vaj

That would make sense as Japan was where I saw it. No idea if it was a 1200 or 1200.2 or larger . It was a while ago


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## agentk98

I got the a404 for free back in 2002 along with two 8w0s.


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## HondAudio

agentk98 said:


> I got the a404 for free back in 2002 along with two 8w0s.


lllllLLLLL*LLLLLANZARRRRR*


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## Fat B

Has anyone used the recent line of PPI amps? I have a couple and I love them. I'm just wondering if people were scared off when PPI switched hands. I don't think their amps went down hill like other companies that change owners. Anyone have experience?


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## aztec1

The light gray PC XXXX.2 were the last ones designed and built fully in the US.


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## circa40

My preferences: M/AX, Art, and PC series


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## jonnyanalog

so will PPI referb yer Art Series or Power Class amp (exterior and interior) if you send it to them? I would love to have another AX400 or some nice power class amps again; they bring back memeories. =)


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## bfrance

I'm a huge PPI fan from back in the day. Seeing all of these pics of the Art series and M/AM series amps are bringing a tear to my eye!!!

I've got a 4200AM and a 2030M currently, both in black. But I'm always on the lookout for more AM series stuff, (my personal favorites, followed closely by the Art series.)

-Ben


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## ANT

.2 gen Art series


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## starboy869

I don't think ppi will referb. A 12 year old amp. However I wished they did. I have a proart 100 that needs a little freshing up.


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## larryboy2911

1st Gen. PC Series like these



















Although, I've heard that the PC250 sounds better than the PC2100.


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## Jester84

This is a good post with lots of good info about the old PPI amps.

I am currently looking to sell one of the PPI's I have . I have an old PC4100 and a PC2150. What are they worth..or I should say, how much should I try and get out of them?

Thanks!
Dave


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## Aaron Clinton

*I just read a rumor on another forum that PPI was sold by DEI to power acoustics. Not sure if it is true, but would be sad news.*


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## caver50

CMR22 said:


> Show off


Very nice.Many years ago I had an old PP AX400 50x4. I never felt like mine had much power. The amp seemed a bit weak to me. I also had problems with overheating. If I remember correctly, they didn't have heat sinks or fans, but they looked nice.


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## WRX/Z28

caver50 said:


> Very nice.Many years ago I had an old PP AX400 50x4. I never felt like mine had much power. The amp seemed a bit weak to me. I also had problems with overheating. If I remember correctly, they didn't have heat sinks or fans, but they looked nice.


They definately have heat sinks. No fans. I know mine get warm, but they never shut off. I've never had overheating problems otherwise, and I'd say that the amp seemed strong for a 50x4 amp. Check out the heat sink design explanation in their manual.

http://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/og/precision_power/Precision_Power_Ax400_Owners_Manual.pdf


Seems some thought went into the flat fin-less heatsinks.


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## Genxx

denim said:


> *I just read a rumor on another forum that PPI was sold by DEI to power acoustics. Not sure if it is true, but would be sad news.*


I have heard the same thing.


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## WRX/Z28

I know that Jeff Scoon and Bruce McMillan went to Xtant... I'm surprised they aren't more popular as far as ebay selling prices. Weird...


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## vaj

jonnyanalog said:


> so will PPI referb yer Art Series or Power Class amp (exterior and interior) if you send it to them? I would love to have another AX400 or some nice power class amps again; they bring back memeories. =)





starboy869 said:


> I don't think ppi will referb. A 12 year old amp. However I wished they did. I have a proart 100 that needs a little freshing up.


I have had good luck with PPI repairs by Spectronix: JustRepairs.com LCD Projector Repair and Service, Epson Infocus Sanyo Compaq Proxima

They have a guy there who is great with older PPI stuff. I just had a PC450 freshened up and it sounds awesome and has been running strong. They will not do anything else for the outside however.


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## starboy869

thanks for the info


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## WRX/Z28

vaj said:


> I have had good luck with PPI repairs by Spectronix: JustRepairs.com LCD Projector Repair and Service, Epson Infocus Sanyo Compaq Proxima
> 
> They have a guy there who is great with older PPI stuff. I just had a PC450 freshened up and it sounds awesome and has been running strong. They will not do anything else for the outside however.


Looks like a reputable place... Don't forget about DB-R.com too...

dB-r.com Amp Amplifier and Electronics Repair


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## mtipping

what are the art series amps going for these days?


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## jmacdadd

Hey there. As for the Art Series, depends on the model, color and shape as far as pricing. Most of the time they seem to be going pretty cheap on Ebay (freebay). I seem to always end up buying high and not being able to sell later since I cannot take a loss. That's why my amp collection is upwards of 60 amps. Are you in the market? I am currently running Mosfet Series as they consume less voltage from the charging system and provide more output at 12V+.


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## WRX/Z28

jmacdadd said:


> Hey there. As for the Art Series, depends on the model, color and shape as far as pricing. Most of the time they seem to be going pretty cheap on Ebay (freebay). I seem to always end up buying high and not being able to sell later since I cannot take a loss. That's why my amp collection is upwards of 60 amps. Are you in the market? I am currently running Mosfet Series as they consume less voltage from the charging system and provide more output at 12V+.


Where are you getting this info from? If anything, I had heard the complete opposite from PPI back in the day...


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## TrickyRicky

agentk98 said:


> I got the a404 for free back in 2002 along with two 8w0s.


Its sad how brands like PPI, Lanzar, and others are now cheap and low quality. All the new Lanzar amps suck and come straight from overseas (korea, Taiwain, China). I always stick to MADE IN USA products (by that I mean made in USA, not designed or assembled).


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## jmacdadd

WRX/Z28 said:


> Where are you getting this info from? If anything, I had heard the complete opposite from PPI back in the day...


Where am I getting the info from is a good question....the install in my daily driver seems to be enough proof for me (unless my ears and charging system deceive me).

I was running an A404 (2 channel bridged to an MB Quart 3-way component set) and an A1200 (2 ohm stereo to twin Audiopulse EPIC EPD412 12" DVC 4ohm Subwoofers) with an Optima Yellow Top and secondary competition gel cell battery and 2 gauge wire from a stock alternator and no power cap. Even with upgrade 2 gauge high strand count OFC wire from the battery to ground and to alternator (with power and ground from the main battery back to the secondary battery) I was having a hard time maintaining >12V voltage. 

I replaced those amps with a 4200M (also 2 channel bridged) and a 2200M (also 2ohm stereo). Since the Mosfet Series do not have regulated power supplies, any voltage maintained above 12V results to increased output and it seems easier now to maintain >12V and it's just as loud and clean although the 2200M is rated 200w per channel less than the A1200.

I think I remember hearing the same thing back in the day so I made the switch the Art Series and in the end the recommendation seemed to be based on generating sales and not what I have experienced. 

I prefer the look of the Art Series over the Mosfets but I prefer the current output of the Mosfet setup over my Art Series.


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## WRX/Z28

jmacdadd said:


> Where am I getting the info from is a good question....the install in my daily driver seems to be enough proof for me (unless my ears and charging system deceive me).
> 
> I was running an A404 (2 channel bridged to an MB Quart 3-way component set) and an A1200 (2 ohm stereo to twin Audiopulse EPIC EPD412 12" DVC 4ohm Subwoofers) with an Optima Yellow Top and secondary competition gel cell battery and 2 gauge wire from a stock alternator and no power cap. Even with upgrade 2 gauge high strand count OFC wire from the battery to ground and to alternator (with power and ground from the main battery back to the secondary battery) I was having a hard time maintaining >12V voltage.
> 
> I replaced those amps with a 4200M (also 2 channel bridged) and a 2200M (also 2ohm stereo). Since the Mosfet Series do not have regulated power supplies, any voltage maintained above 12V results to increased output and it seems easier now to maintain >12V and it's just as loud and clean although the 2200M is rated 200w per channel less than the A1200.
> 
> I think I remember hearing the same thing back in the day so I made the switch the Art Series and in the end the recommendation seemed to be based on generating sales and not what I have experienced.
> 
> I prefer the look of the Art Series over the Mosfets but I prefer the current output of the Mosfet setup over my Art Series.


Good info. 

I'd be curious though to see how the setup fared with the A1200 simply changed for an A600. My thinking is that you didn't gain any efficiency, but rather went to a lower output amp that solved some charging system issues. 

The lack of volume difference was probably due to the old 3db needs double the power rule of thumb. You probably lost nearly 0 volume, but your charging system probably seemed much happier. I can see where that would leave you with the impression of improved efficiency. 

Without measurements though, this is all just speculation. I'm simply going off of what PPI told me way back when. I could swear they quoted higher efficiency as the benefits of the new art series. 

Unless you do some long term engine off listening, I might ditch the deep cycle battery and go back to a conventional lead/acid battery. Rumor has it that gel cells and other sealed deep cycle style batterys can't release power as well as the old lead/acid style.


----------



## mtipping

jmacdadd said:


> Hey there. As for the Art Series, depends on the model, color and shape as far as pricing. Most of the time they seem to be going pretty cheap on Ebay (freebay). I seem to always end up buying high and not being able to sell later since I cannot take a loss. That's why my amp collection is upwards of 60 amps. Are you in the market? I am currently running Mosfet Series as they consume less voltage from the charging system and provide more output at 12V+.


No i'm not in the market for some .... I just have an A404, an A1200 and a Mosfet sitting in my garage and was wondering how much they are worth


----------



## evo9

Luke said:


> What can happen is that when you plug it in, its possible to touch the power to the ground on the amp or remote (maybe that's different on your model). One of my friends did this and I remember when we took it back to the dealer he told that had happened to several people.


You DONT know what you are talking about! I ran the power class for over ten years. Unpluged them with and without power, never had a problem. They will all spark upon contact with power to the plug. That is normal, as the caps energizes.


To the original question; The PC series, also known as the powerclass was the last of the good PPI amps. The PCX series that were made while PPI was under ADS are good amps. Those would be the ones that are made in the USA. Once direct electronics inc took over, the PCX series became an Asian made amp. Then PPI, Orion & ADS went to sh!t like everthing else DEI touches. PPI & ADS is now history. They kept Orion because "my opinion" it was the basshead amp of the 3, and only basshead people buy DEI audio products.


.


----------



## Lanson

I just don't get it.

I had a pair of DCX amps for quite a while, and they were perfect and still are for the new owner. What exactly is the big hang-up with oldschool vs. something newer?


----------



## W8 a minute

mtipping said:


> what are the art series amps going for these days?


A lot less than people seem to think. But that goes for all old school audio. The economy really killed the market. Browse the classifieds here and you'll find tons of people trying to sell off their prized old school gear because they lost thier job or just need the money. Unfortunately for them we're all in the same boat so their item sits for months or goes to ebay and sells much cheaper than they had hoped. I've seen many items that I passed over because I just don't need 10-20 amps sitting in a closet that I might not ever use. And luckily, I'm still employed with a good paying job. Now 2 years ago I would have snatched these items in a heartbeat but for now my money will stay in the bank.


----------



## qstarin

89grand said:


> It's too bad if the DCX are good amps, because they look so stupid and cheesy, I'd probably never run one. Just because it *looks like a swap meet amp*.



It's probably just me, but I really chuckle at the "swap meet amp" phrase.

Why? Cause to me (and I know its not the case), but *these look like swap meet amps to me*:












Lol. For some reason they make me think of the Fruit Loops Toucan. Ha ha - cereal box amps.



Also, I just picked up a PPI PC21400.2 (ups delivers tomorrow!). It is one of the big light-grey ones, rated @ 12v. Was actually quite surprised at the low prices some of these things get right now. Bad economy ftw, I guess.


----------



## mjgonegm

Okay i recently used this one in a customer build (a600/4) It ran great had tons of features and the gain was less then a 1/4 up, it was powering some crappy speakers though


----------



## W8 a minute

mjgonegm said:


> and the gain was less then a 1/4 up,


And how does that pertain to the performance of the amplifier?


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> And how does that pertain to the performance of the amplifier?


Well, everyone knows the gain is a power adjustment for the amp. 


This should go into that "Car Audio Myths" thread. 

"Gain control is a wattage adjustment for your amp"


----------



## HondAudio

WRX/Z28 said:


> Well, everyone knows the gain is a power adjustment for the amp.
> 
> 
> This should go into that "Car Audio Myths" thread.
> 
> "Gain control is a wattage adjustment for your amp"


ell-oh-ell


----------



## mjgonegm

I had to to turn it down from fatcory, way to much power to those crappy speakers, thought i would mention.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I really, REALLY miss the old school PPI stuff. Lots of good, new stuff out there but, just always liked the stuff I used when I first got into car audio. To each, his own.


----------



## toomtoomvroom

HAHA, so i just showed my gf a picture of the Art Series amp and she asked "are those made for little kids?" not quite more for big kids with deep pockets. 

I've used the PC chrome series, PC gunmetal series, and PCX silver series and they were all great. I believe both PC series were made in the States, whereas the PCX series which had TC-X crossovers was made overseas. The PCX4125 i had said maid in Korea. Alot of people dislike stuff made overseas, but the fact of the matter is it's a lot cheaper then making it here and technology has progress a lot since those days. Back 10 years ago there was a big gap between cheap swat meet amps and top end amps, but as time and technology has advanced, the gap has been getting smaller. 

Since we're talking about PPI, does anyone know whats going on with it? I last heard DEI sold it to Epsilon Electronics who owns Power Acoustik and Soundstream


----------



## calisti

I've got 2 gunmetal grey pc2350's, one silver pc4800, one gun metal grey pc450. Had each pc2350's running a pair of 12w6's in parallel so if I'm right it was a 3 ohm load giving each driver 500 watts rms (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long time), the pc4800 only for front stage: a pair of USD waveguides and 7" dyn's. 

Head unit was Sony ES cdxc-90 to digital x-ver xdp210eq via optical tosslink the guides and dyn's were split up with the audiocontrol 24xs, custom 300 amp hand wound 5 stator alternator, external resister box, remote voltage regulator. 300 amp anl main fuse 0 guage to fused distrubution block and 4 guage into each amp, 3 1 farad Monster caps from back in 1998 in a white 1993 Acura integra gs-r hatchback, diy custom fiberglass wheel well sealed enclosure, heavily internally braced and bolted to the wheel well of the car, with a panel open on all for sides ( so not a band pass enclosure) of 3/4" mdf above the face of the cones for corner loading effect.

Loud, Loud, Loud, but front stage was sweet, high up on the dash nice sound stage. It was like driving around with a concert stage on my dash. Worked for Al & Ed's autosound as an assistant mgr in Socal at that time, car audio sales at "The Good Guys" before that and previously installed for Car Fidelity with my MECP basic installer cert.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> I know that Jeff Scoon and Bruce McMillan went to Xtant... I'm surprised they aren't more popular as far as ebay selling prices. Weird...


Well, the Xtant amps incorporated a lot of analog processing stuff, and not very successfully, IMO. I could hear a difference between the first-gen Xtant amps and my PPI A404.2, which I attribute to the extra crap in the Xtants. (Sophisticated analog processing can be added very successfully and sonically transparently to an amp. See, e.g. Jello Slash series.)

Which is a pity, because the Xtants looked really cool.

As for PPI, the last series I would consider is the Art .2, just because I find their later "PowerClass" muffler-lookin' things ugly. Amps all sound the same (with rare badly-designed or broken exceptions) so choosing on looks makes far more sense than choosing on "sound quality." I still use an A404.2 in the Citroën. It works, and a smaller modern amp such as a PDX wouldn't free up any space, so why change?


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Well, the Xtant amps incorporated a lot of analog processing stuff, and not very successfully, IMO. I could hear a difference between the first-gen Xtant amps and my PPI A404.2, which I attribute to the extra crap in the Xtants. (Sophisticated analog processing can be added very successfully and sonically transparently to an amp. See, e.g. Jello Slash series.)
> 
> Which is a pity, because the Xtants looked really cool.
> 
> As for PPI, the last series I would consider is the Art .2, just because I find their later "PowerClass" muffler-lookin' things ugly. Amps all sound the same (with rare badly-designed or broken exceptions) so choosing on looks makes far more sense than choosing on "sound quality." I still use an A404.2 in the Citroën. It works, and a smaller modern amp such as a PDX wouldn't free up any space, so why change?



Amazingly enough, McMillan and Scoon (the xtant/ppi guys) went on to make the Jello amp's (JL) with IIRC nearly identical analog processing devices (crossovers, single band parametric eq's, the same balance input setup) the main difference was that the xtants had card slots that made some of those features optional, while the JL's make them standard. The JL's incorporated the RIPS power supply setup as well, making output nearly the same regardless of impedence or voltage. 

The amp discussion is getting old. Those that believe they all sound the same have made it known who they are, predominantly. Those who don't have also make it known. Neither seems to be changing their feeling on the subject, so continuing to state your opinion seems to be like... :dead_horse:


----------



## TrickyRicky

WRX/Z28 said:


> Amazingly enough, McMillan and Scoon (the xtant/ppi guys) went on to make the Jello amp's (JL) with IIRC nearly identical analog processing devices (crossovers, single band parametric eq's, the same balance input setup) the main difference was that the xtants had card slots that made some of those features optional, while the JL's make them standard. The JL's incorporated the RIPS power supply setup as well, making output nearly the same regardless of impedence or voltage.
> 
> The amp discussion is getting old. Those that believe they all sound the same have made it known who they are, predominantly. Those who don't have also make it known. Neither seems to be changing their feeling on the subject, so continuing to state your opinion seems to be like... :dead_horse:


Funny how I couldnt get anyone to repair my xtant amps, so I just got rid off them. I had two 1001dx and a 302a. All needed repair work. Some people actually told me "just throw them away since who ever tries to fix them is going to end up charging you an arm and leg.". I got 200 for all three amps on ebay about 3 months ago.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Jeanious2009 said:


> Funny how I couldnt get anyone to repair my xtant amps, so I just got rid off them. I had two 1001dx and a 302a. All needed repair work. Some people actually told me "just throw them away since who ever tries to fix them is going to end up charging you an arm and leg.". I got 200 for all three amps on ebay about 3 months ago.


Odd. They're very easy to repair. It's all of 6 screws to expose the power supply mosfets and output transistors. 

dB-r.com Amp Amplifier and Electronics Repair can repair almost anything fwiw.


----------



## TrickyRicky

WRX/Z28 said:


> Odd. They're very easy to repair. It's all of 6 screws to expose the power supply mosfets and output transistors.
> 
> dB-r.com Amp Amplifier and Electronics Repair can repair almost anything fwiw.


Oh well, I spent 350.00 to get them, then spent another 200.00 for someone to have fixed them (but did a crappy repair job) and end up needing further repair. So I was really pissed, and decide to just get rid of them before the same happend again.


----------



## ChrisB

denim said:


> *I just read a rumor on another forum that PPI was sold by DEI to power acoustics. Not sure if it is true, but would be sad news.*





Genxx said:


> I have heard the same thing.


It is true:

PPI Sold By Directed - Car Audio Nationals

Epsilon Buys Precision Power From Directed - 12/1/2008 - TWICE

http://blog.sounddomain.com/gadget/precision_power/

Well, at least I read it on the internet, so it must be true!


----------



## TrickyRicky

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> It is true:
> 
> PPI Sold By Directed - Car Audio Nationals
> 
> Epsilon Buys Precision Power From Directed - 12/1/2008 - TWICE
> 
> http://blog.sounddomain.com/gadget/precision_power/
> 
> Well, at least I read it on the internet, so it must be true!


Man that some sorry news. I know those PPI arts were the bomb. Now Kole, Power Acoustiks, and some other ****ty brands are going to be in the same level as PPI. Well not in the same level, they will just bring PPI to their level, which is very very low. Aint Kole consider the cheapest amps and subs, just as well as the Power Acoustiks.

Its like LP ( dont get mad Mustang sally) being sold to Pyramid, or Boss. That would be a nightmare for me and others, lol.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> Amazingly enough, McMillan and Scoon (the xtant/ppi guys) went on to make the Jello amp's (JL) with IIRC nearly identical analog processing devices (crossovers, single band parametric eq's, the same balance input setup) the main difference was that the xtants had card slots that made some of those features optional, while the JL's make them standard.


I highly doubt they are the same circuits. At any rate, they work on the Jellos and they audibly degraded the Xtants. At least, that is my hypothesis, inferred from the fact that in blind listening they were distinugishable and worse than the A404.2. I could be wrong, and there could be some other flaw in the Xtants unrelated to the processing.



WRX/Z28 said:


> The amp discussion is getting old.


Indeed, pretending to tolerate witchcraft and voodoo over science and engineering does get old.


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Indeed, pretending to tolerate witchcraft and voodoo over science and engineering does get old.




All I heard was blah blah blah.


----------



## ChrisB

Jeanious2009 said:


> dont get mad Mustang sally


Don't worry, I am not mad at all. I am about to delve into a new hobby.... Erotic Arts. Can I interest you in a painting of two women and a horse?


----------



## PPI_GUY

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> It is true:
> 
> PPI Sold By Directed - Car Audio Nationals
> 
> Epsilon Buys Precision Power From Directed - 12/1/2008 - TWICE
> 
> http://blog.sounddomain.com/gadget/precision_power/
> 
> Well, at least I read it on the internet, so it must be true!


Well, there is a fantastic opportunity there to make PPI their flagship/high-end line (as hard as that is to believe for a company that builds Kole). However, I suspect that the PPI brand will suffer even further denegration due to a never-ending desire to put the bottomline ahead of quality. The only hope may be that down the road, after Epsilon has milked the PPI name for everything they can get out of it, someone, hopefully a brand new start up company with some engineers that have ties to the higher end of the market will snatch it up and return PPI to prominance.

Strangely enough, it would seem to have been a natural fit for a company like JL to have purchased the PPI name and marketed their 2nd tier products (A, G, E series amps as an example) under that banner.


----------



## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> Well, there is a fantastic opportunity there to make PPI their flagship/high-end line (as hard as that is to believe for a company that builds Kole). However, I suspect that the PPI brand will suffer even further denegration due to a never-ending desire to put the bottomline ahead of quality. The only hope may be that down the road, after Epsilon has milked the PPI name for everything they can get out of it, someone, hopefully a brand new start up company with some engineers that have ties to the higher end of the market will snatch it up and return PPI to prominance.
> 
> Strangely enough, it would seem to have been a natural fit for a company like JL to have purchased the PPI name and marketed their 2nd tier products (A, G, E series amps as an example) under that banner.


What about Epsilon owning Soundstream? I keep hearing of Soundstream's return to quality, but, I will believe it when I see it.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Agreed, the fall of Soundstream and PPI seem to parallel each other and now they both end up owned by the same company. 
The reason I got into PPI back in the late 80's was because of their quality products, the fact that they were cleaning up on the West coast in competitions and no one in my area used or sold PPI. Now, their products are marginal to poor, they are nowhere to be seen in competitions and you can buy their stuff at flea markets (brand new).
Wow.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> All I heard was blah blah blah.


Can't process written words without speaking them aloud?

No wonder you can't hear that amps all sound the same!


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Can't process written words without speaking them aloud?
> 
> No wonder you can't hear that amps all sound the same!


Wow! You're about a week late with that. Good try though!


----------



## sublime_ac

I would say the Art Series .2's are the best, the PowerClass would be second and PCX would be my last choice in PPI...


----------



## infiniti23

PPI_GUY said:


> Agreed, the fall of Soundstream and PPI seem to parallel each other and now they both end up owned by the same company.
> The reason I got into PPI back in the late 80's was because of their quality products, the fact that they were cleaning up on the West coast in competitions and no one in my area used or sold PPI. Now, their products are marginal to poor, they are nowhere to be seen in competitions and you can buy their stuff at flea markets (brand new).
> Wow.


Funniest part of this is that you could take any World Champion, or high profile competitor, replace their current amps with brand new PPI amps, and they'd do just as well ...

It's all smoke and mirrors buddy ...


----------



## sublime_ac

I dunno about that.... The current series PPI amps may not be able to do put out the power without smoking.


----------



## infiniti23

sublime_ac said:


> I dunno about that.... The current series PPI amps may not be able to do put out the power without smoking.


Ahhhh, ******** ...

Fact is, a World Champion competitor could use any equipment they wanted, and they'd probably still win - that darned Placebo effect ...

I've used many, many, many amps ....

Many Soundstream amps, several Reference series, the ones that apparently gave them the "Smokestream" name ...

Never had a single one go up in smoke ...

Used probably a dozen or more different PPI amps, including trying to DCX series, never lost a single one ...

I recently lost a brand new Sinfoni 45.2x for no apparaent reason....

Those brand new PPI's are likely just fine. Common run of the mill amp, will probably work just fine for many years. Every line of PPI I've ever used has been fine, except that brand new PPI 2300m I had back in the day that smoked the second I hooked it up ....

How about those Audison Bit One's, huh? Problems left and right ...

Every manufacturer has issues. Sure, many of the old school amps were overbuilt tanks, built to perform for life. But think about a car audio amp - it's not meant to last for life. Nobody wants to pay the premiums they paid back in the day, but they want something that will beat everything and last forever. Interesting concept ...


----------



## infiniti23

sublime_ac said:


> I would say the Art Series .2's are the best, the PowerClass would be second and PCX would be my last choice in PPI...


So the Art Series .2 are the best ...

Yet, the Powerclass and PCX are better than the original Art Series?

What does "better" mean?

Because I have AM/M series amps that I swear are neck and neck performers with Art series amps I own ...

And considering the .2 series maybe gave 10% extra power, at the slight expense of some SQ, what exactly makes them "better"?

What does that 10% extra power equate to?


----------



## sublime_ac

For the most part you are correct that you will not hear a big difference between most amps of reasonable quality. That is why I have been using Arc Mini amps in most installs as of late. They sound 'good enough' as long as the rest of the install is up to par. But I do not like the current PPI amps, maybe it is just a bias because I was a hardcore PPI guy back in the day, runing everything from ART to PCX. 

If I had my choice of any PPI amps it would be the ART .2's.. They have a lot of headroom and are built like tanks to take a beating.


----------



## upstate-evo

I lusted after the art series back in the day, I'd still like to get one.

Does anyone know the actual output of the a404 or a404.2? Is it actually 4x50 or is it more?


----------



## sublime_ac

They have highly regulated power supplies, don't expect much more then 50x4..


----------



## infiniti23

upstate-evo said:


> I lusted after the art series back in the day, I'd still like to get one.
> 
> Does anyone know the actual output of the a404 or a404.2? Is it actually 4x50 or is it more?


It will be the loudest, cleanest 54 watts you've heard ....

Even the A100's have shocking output ...


----------



## Bom

jmacdadd said:


> Personally, I am an original Art Series fanatic. The post Mosfet Series (M/AM) and pre .2 Series. The original series offered the best SQ in my opinion. The .2 Series was geared for competition. The beefed up power supplies and outputs didn't generate the sound quality in the mids and highs like the originals. However, the low output was greatly improved as a result. Also, my personal opinion is that the original PC Series (charcoal metallic sinks) were the last true PPI Precision Power made amps. I am almost 99% sure everything after that is post bankruptcy....Phaze Audio, Butler Audio and eventually DEI. My personal collection, from pre M/AM Series to PC Series consists of nearly 60 amps. These range from production dates beginning in 1989 and ending in roughly 1998. Most have never been repaired. Some have been repaired as they were received that way or received in need of repair. I have sold off more than I can remember. PPI manufactured boards for a lot of companies back in the day. They scaled them down so they weren't "true" PPI and some of those companies were: MTX, Sansui, Phillips Sounds Labs, Lanzar and Crutchfield. Let me know if you would like to try out one of these amps as I have plenty to around and should be able to make you a decent deal on one. Thanks and best wishes for amazing audio!


Very truely envy for your collection. I wish I had all models from Art series but, in fact, I only have 3 new and 2 used A600.2 amps. It seems that you are tru PPI lover. I have question would like to ask. I bought a used A600.2 from Japan and another amp from USA (ebay). Both amps sound different so I open it up and compare them. I found that both amps are totally different internally. They has different PCB, different electrical supply circuit, different power supply caps (Japan version uses 22 pcs of 470uf caps whereas USA version use 6 pcs of 1000uf), differrent preamp circuit. Only transistor is the same. Do you know about that?


----------



## 89grand

I had owned since brand new and used for many years, then sold recently an A200 and A600.2.

Nice amps, but as expected, at least by me and some others, there's nothing magical about them. They are amps, that's it. Neither amp was louder or sounded any better than any other decent amp of similar power. Seriously...that's why I sold them. I didn't need them and they were just amps.

I have another A200 laying around that needs an output transistor replaced. I'll fix it one of these days then sell it on ebay for a profit.


----------



## sublime_ac

I am pretty surpised about that. Are you sure they are both .2 series?


----------



## sublime_ac

89grand said:


> I had owned since brand new and used for many years, then sold recently an A200 and A600.2.
> 
> Nice amps, but as expected, at least by me and some others, there's nothing magical about them. They are amps, that's it. Neither amp was louder or sounded any better than any other decent amp of similar power. Seriously...that's why I sold them. I didn't need them and they were just amps.
> 
> I have another A200 laying around that needs an output transistor replaced. I'll fix it one of these days then sell it on ebay for a profit.


You are correct, they are just amps, but some amps hold a special place in my heart... Linear Power T03, PPI A.2, Rockford Fosgate Power 650 / 1000 (original), Rockford DSM series, Zapco Studio series, Kicker ZR600 / ZR1000, old school hifonics, and Orion HCCA. They are all just amps, but each of them could produce brutal levels of power.. I guess most of these have been surpassed by newer amps, but I would love to have systems with any of these amps, especially the Rockford Power 1000.


----------



## 89grand

I like the old amps too, that's what I grew up on, they will always be remembered by me, but one day I sat and thought about it, and I couldn't justify keeping them for no reason, plus I knew other people really wanted them so I let them go.

I wasn't going to use them, so I said "**** it" and listed them and they were sold.


----------



## Bom

sublime_ac said:


> I am pretty surpised about that. Are you sure they are both .2 series?


If you asked me, yes, they are .2 amps. The Japan version uses 2xLM837 opamps whereas USA version use 4xLM833 opamps. The Japan version uses 22x470uf caps in power supply whereas USA version use 6x1000uf caps. Both amps use different PCB (different layout). If I have time, I borrow camera from my friend and take photoes of them for you.


----------



## HondAudio

sublime_ac said:


> I would say the Art Series .2's are the best, the PowerClass would be second and PCX would be my last choice in PPI...


I don't want to argue about the finer points of triple-Darlington circuit topology, but it seemed [as I recall from 1996] that the PowerClass amps were just the hot new heatsink design for the Art Series.2 with some new wattage configurations.


----------



## WRX/Z28

HondAudio said:


> I don't want to argue about the finer points of triple-Darlington circuit topology, but it seemed [as I recall from 1996] that the PowerClass amps were just the hot new heatsink design for the Art Series.2 with some new wattage configurations.


Negative. They're not the same amp at all. 

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/PPI_A600.2/inside1.jpg

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/PPI_PC2150/inside1.jpg


----------



## infiniti23

sublime_ac said:


> I am pretty surpised about that. Are you sure they are both .2 series?


There is nothing special about the .2 series. A little more raw power, 10% maybe, what difference does that make at the end of the day? 

Art series, either regular or .2, neither sound as smooth as the M/AM series, regardless ....


----------



## WRX/Z28

infiniti23 said:


> There is nothing special about the .2 series. A little more raw power, 10% maybe, what difference does that make at the end of the day?
> 
> Art series, either regular or .2, neither sound as smooth as the M/AM series, regardless ....


I don't know about that. The .2's at the very least have proven longevity. Many here have praised the sound they get from them. 

I myself found the 4200am to be so close to the A404.2 that I couldn't tell the difference when swapping them over. I personally hated the connections on the M/AM's, and there definately are not as many of them floating around. 

That may be due to less sales, but I see more 13-17 year old art series amps floating around working perfectly with their warranty seals intact than I do any other amp from the old "big 3".


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## PPI_GUY

The amazing thing is that even now, some 20+ years after their heyday there is still massive brand loyalty to PPI. Obviously, they did something right with the M/AM and ART series amps. Unfortunately, the recent owners of the PPI brand have done NOTHING to capitalize on that. I still think JL should have grabbed up the PPI brand and used it for SOMETHING. Maybe a legacy series of A/B stuff that would have competed directly with Rockford's 25 to Life line? I don't know, I'm not a marketing genius.

I collect and use PPI M/AM and Pro Mos stuff but, it's more because that is what I know. The ART stuff guts "look" better made but, that doesn't necessarily translate into better quality sound. It's such a subjective thing anyway. Although, I really have a hard time believing the DCX and newer stuff could hang with the older stuff sonically. This is a good discussion though. Lots to learn and absorb.


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## ppi art man

do u still own the 606.2 and if so u want to sell?


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## Boo

i just hate them plugs on the AM series. 

once you lost it, great.


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## Boo

i just hate them plugs on the AM series. 

once you lost it, great.


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## starboy869

Bom said:


> Very truely envy for your collection. I wish I had all models from Art series but, in fact, I only have 3 new and 2 used A600.2 amps. It seems that you are tru PPI lover. I have question would like to ask. I bought a used A600.2 from Japan and another amp from USA (ebay). Both amps sound different so I open it up and compare them. I found that both amps are totally different internally. They has different PCB, different electrical supply circuit, different power supply caps (Japan version uses 22 pcs of 470uf caps whereas USA version use 6 pcs of 1000uf), differrent preamp circuit. Only transistor is the same. Do you know about that?


I would love to see some pictures. I also imported in a few ppi art amps from japan. Maybe you got a proart50 board in an a600.2 case,


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## PPI_GUY

Boo said:


> i just hate them plugs on the AM series.
> 
> once you lost it, great.


Agreed. They can be a ***** to find. Plus, I always thought the gauge of wire used for speaker outputs was alittle on the small side. The only real option is to hardwire (solder) the speaker leads to the board and while you are at it, use heavier gauge wire. It hurts the originality of the amp but, for the purpose of using it, makes alot of sense.
Ironically, some of the other 'off-brand' amps that PPI made boards for during that time period had the speaker leads hard wired to the board.


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## soundlevel

the pc series I would say were the last of the great us made ppi's. The pcx didn't sound as clean, the distortion level was higher and we had more issues with pcx line than previous line.


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## PPI_GUY

soundlevel said:


> the pc series I would say were the last of the great us made ppi's. The pcx didn't sound as clean, the distortion level was higher and we had more issues with pcx line than previous line.


soundlevel, you sound like you either worked for PPI at some point or were 'in the industry' somehow. Possibly a store owner?


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## soundlevel

PPI_GUY said:


> soundlevel, you sound like you either worked for PPI at some point or were 'in the industry' somehow. Possibly a store owner?


I have worked at various shops that were authorized for ppi (when dei took over the quality just wasn't there anymore) The reason old school amps are so popular is the same reason the muscle car era was popular. Overbuilt, underrated and top quality parts all added up to amps that lasted over 20 years. MADE IN THE USA


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## KyleMDunn

soundlevel said:


> the pc series I would say were the last of the great us made ppi's. The pcx didn't sound as clean, the distortion level was higher and we had more issues with pcx line than previous line.


I still loved my PCX 250's and my PCX 1250. Should have never got rid of them.


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## PPI_GUY

Still running Mosfet series amps in my truck. Sound as good today as they did in the late 80's and early 90's.


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## starboy869

Bom do you have any pics yet?


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## PPI_GUY

I remain somewhat hopeful that we haven't seen the last of PPI. After their purchase by Epsilon I feared they would become just anothe Power Acoustik amp but, apparently plans are for them to become the new flagship line for Epsilon above Soundstream. In another thread, someone who has connections at Soundstream stated that the new 'entry level' PPI amps would share the same boards as the new SS Reference series and that a higher level PPI series was also being designed.
Certainly worth watching.


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## Chaos

^ I'll believe it when I see it, but you're right - definitely something to look out for.


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## WRX/Z28

PPI_GUY said:


> I remain somewhat hopeful that we haven't seen the last of PPI. After their purchase by Epsilon I feared they would become just anothe Power Acoustik amp but, apparently plans are for them to become the new flagship line for Epsilon above Soundstream. In another thread, someone who has connections at Soundstream stated that the new 'entry level' PPI amps would share the same boards as the new SS Reference series and that a higher level PPI series was also being designed.
> Certainly worth watching.


Designed by who though? All their O/G work for JL now...

IMO, if you want the closest thing to a modern PPI amp, you should buy a JL amp...


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## soundlevel

old school products is what made ebay a success


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## Thunderdome

PPI_GUY said:


> Still running Mosfet series amps in my truck. Sound as good today as they did in the late 80's and early 90's.



ditto  still running pro mos 50 for subs in my car never a problem, old school rocks


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## Curlystereo

i have several of the pc series... 7 to be exact.. and some Sedonas... they are the best to me... but that's my opinion


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## calisti

I'm parting with my 2 Power Class dark grey metallics PC2350's and light grey PC4800 in mint condition, but no one seems to know the value of these great amplifiers even with this economy. I've got 1 PC2350 on ebay auction that stays on until it sells but only have been getting low ball offers and it's been on there for a couple months. I won't let them go until I get what I believe the value of these should get otherwise I'm keeping them. 

Here's my description:

* Some features that I've never seen mentioned are that this amplifier is cooled via forced air thermal management system, which means there's an active fan that turns on at a predetermined value tempurature that forces air in, through the internal inverted heat sinks on the aluminum shrouds, then warm air is forced out through the upper end plate exhaust vents.
* Another is the 90 Hz fourth-order Linkwitz-Riley type, 24dB per octave phase correlated crossover built in to provide system flexibility without the added expense and installation of an outboard crossover. The 24 dB per octave digital crossover ensures no power loss through the digital filtering and also that there is no phase shift.
* Advanced Buss Technology - uses solid brass buss bars.
* Adaptive MOSFET Switching Power Supply.
* High Voltage Input Capability with Input Attenuation Switch. (used if you were going to use speaker level to rca inputs)
* Fully Complementary Triple Darlington Output Stage.
* Another great feature is the Balanced Differential Inputs. This circuitry reduces noise radiated into your signal cables by up to 40 dB. This is equivalent to a noise reduction of approximately one hundred times what the noise level would be without this circuitry. It provides all the benefits of a true 'balanced' line without the need of any special cables. This type of input works with any conventional RCA cable.
* This amplifier also features a very sophisticated protection thermal and a low impedance (or short circuit)circuitry called the AM IV protection circuit, which turns down the amplifier's output when it senses overheating or a low impedance condition. When the amplifier cools down, or the impedance is corrected, the AM IV will restore full power. 
* The two QBASS switches (labeled 1 and 2) on the front end of the amplifier allow you to select one of four frequency centers - 30Hz, 36Hz, 44Hz, and 60Hz. The Q Select switch determines the width of the boosted frequencies. A 'Q' of 2 (switch out) will give you a wide boost while a 'Q' of 4 will boost a narrow range of frequencies. On the rear end panel you will find the QBASS Level dial that can turn up the QBASS PLUS circuit by up to 18db. It also has the plug in for a cat 5 cable to use the QBASS REMOTE dash mounted level control. You can also get an expansion module to have one QBASS REMOTE control several amplifiers.


Here are some specifications:

* Power Bandwidth 4.5 - 100kHz
* Total Harmonic Distortion - 0.02%
* Input Sensitivity 150mv - 12 volts RMS
* Input Impedance 10 k Ohms
* 2 X 350 watts rms @ 4ohms
* 2 X 700 watts rms @ 2ohms
* 1 X 1400 watts rms @ 4ohms bridge mono
* dampening factor >500 (this feature gives an electric dampening which improves the transient response or gives the accurate tight sounding bass in conjunction with the sub-woofer box design, in addition most modern class D amplifiers usually have a dampening factor of less than 200)
* Slew Rate >50V/uS
* Idle current - 3 Amps
* Crossover Frequency - 90Hz, 2 way
* Length - 15.75", Height - 2.25", Width - 8.9"


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## Curlystereo

Ebay is strange... I have sold a Fosgate Power 650 on there for $850 and a couple of weeks later sell another for $300... it is up and down.. the one you have looks great.. wished i had it to go along with my 4100... but i trade more than i buy if i can go that way... Just leave it on there... the right buyer will come along


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## PGT FTW

I owned an A200 way back in the early 90's, then had a few PRO650's, PC6600.2 (chrome), a 2600.2, 1800.1 and 2300.2. I think I also had a PC4100 (original PC big four channel...it was stolen).

I'd agree the PCX weren't the same as the PC. The PC were better than the A series IMHO, if only b/c they had crossovers. 

I also had Phoenix Gold MS amps....MS250, MS430, MS275 and MS2125. The MS had raw power but the PPI amps sounded better.

<---- was an enthusiast in the early 90's and worked for a high-end shop from '96-'00, selling Adcom, McIntosh, Xtant, PPI, MBQuart, Boston Acoustics, Eclipse and Alpine.


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## calisti

Curlystereo said:


> Ebay is strange... I have sold a Fosgate Power 650 on there for $850 and a couple of weeks later sell another for $300... it is up and down.. the one you have looks great.. wished i had it to go along with my 4100... but i trade more than i buy if i can go that way... Just leave it on there... the right buyer will come along


Yeah I sold a couple of Cdxc-90's one used for $500 another bnib for $800. I've got 28 watchers on there right now so I know there's interest. If not when I buy a new crossover vehicle I'll do that spl/ sq system. I still have a custom 300 amp alternator w external resister box and voltage regulator for this setup.


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## HereticHulk

Anyone heard anything good, bad or neutral about this one?


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## Lanson

HereticHulk said:


> Anyone heard anything good, bad or neutral about this one?


I don't have a problem with newer PPI, they are at least CEA rated, and they seem to be built fine w/ a triple-darlington ps, but honestly its one of those "an amp is an amp" type deals.

Probably about as good as my RSd amps. I mean I want better, but an amp makes sooo little of a difference in sound quality that it should be the last thing to worry about in the chain.


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## PPI_GUY

HereticHulk said:


> Anyone heard anything good, bad or neutral about this one?


Never used or even heard one. Atleast they are very affordable for the power you get vs. price. Some here say 'an amp is an amp'. Others swear that there is a distinct difference between brands, models and sometimes, even the years they were produced. It all comes down to what YOU like, not what someone else tells you.
My biggest problem with that amp is that it is so freakin' ugly!
Oh, and new PPI amps are on the way.


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## mpaschetto

JAX said:


> I might get one to try out casue they always had great specs before they were moved...
> 
> problem is I dont know what the good ones are other than the ART series and they seem ot cost to much ...most of the time.....
> 
> welll not like a PG ZPA but I want them to be cheaper..


I think the PC series was the last good series.
I've got a (15) year old PC4100 that still works like new....

Mike


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## killerwhale

does any one have the spect or know how i can get the specs for a ppi 1200.2 im using it now to push 4 12" but i wanted to drop down to good one and was wondering how low i can go with it and what kind of wattege to expect


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## toomtoomvroom

All the ppi manuals are still available on DEI's website.

Directed Electronics - Owners Guides


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## killerwhale

thanks im on there now i asked before i looked but im trying to figure out how to wire my subs to get the most out of the amp the manual says you get the most in stereo 2 ohm or you can bridge them to one chanel but at 4 ohm so thats what im trying to figure out now


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## killerwhale

thanks i asked before looking


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## calisti

killerwhale said:


> thanks im on there now i asked before i looked but im trying to figure out how to wire my subs to get the most out of the amp the manual says you get the most in stereo 2 ohm or you can bridge them to one chanel but at 4 ohm so thats what im trying to figure out now


What's the impedance of your 4 12" woofers and are they single or dual voice coils? If they are 4 ohm single voice coils you could just wire each pair in parallel to each channel for a 2 ohm load or wire each pair in series for 8 ohms then bridge both pairs at the amp to give you a 4 ohm bridge mono load. The only thing is when you do that you lose some dampening factor.


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## starboy869

What subs do you have and what ohms are they, and are a single or dual vc?

Ppi arts made less power when you drop below the 4 ohms bridged or 2 ohms mono.

If you go to JL Audio they have an excellent section in car audio on how to wire up various subs, etc.


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## starboy869

JL Audio - Car Audio Systems


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## killerwhale

i have dual 2ohm voice coils and i have 4 of them i was on rhe kicker website trying to figure out how to wire them to have the end result be 4ohms bridged i think now i have them wired in series voice coils and paralel woofers http://kicker.com/sites/all/themes/...yout/support/wiring/CVR_DVC_wiring_1or2_3.jpg


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## killerwhale

im using the top wiring pic


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## calisti

You have to wire the voice coils in series for a 4 ohm load then parallel them to each channel to get a 2 ohm stereo load.


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## loddie

I have several black PPI art series amps (A200, A300, A600, A1200). What are the advantages of the DIN plug? Are these connectors readily available to make your own interconnects? Are the DIN connections 'balanced"?

Is anyone liquid cooling their art series? Anyone know where to find the quick disconnect hydraulic connections? I'd like to liquid cool mine and run all the channels bridged.

Thanks!


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## manvsaudio

So was PPI sold to xtant? Been trying to find some info on the black powerclass line, PC4200


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## WRX/Z28

manvsaudio said:


> So was PPI sold to xtant? Been trying to find some info on the black powerclass line, PC4200


No, the PPI designers started Xtant. They were not the owners of PPI. 

The PC series were charcoal grey, not black.


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## ghostmechanic

infiniti23 said:


> There is nothing special about the .2 series. A little more raw power, 10% maybe, what difference does that make at the end of the day?


I know this is an old post but I think it's funny. The BIG difference between the older Art series & the .2 series is the power supply on the .2 has one more FET per side & the outputs on each side have one more P channel & one more N channel BJT. They also changed the configuration (not number) of caps in the power supply & added fusible links to all the speaker outputs. You can actually modify the .2 series to put out much more power than the original Art series.

As far as what was the best, last PPI amp... I'll keep my opinions to myself. That's all most of these debates are is opinions. I personally feel the old Orion HCCA's were better though

I've had two Art series amps to repair lately & really, they were built exactly like what they were named after. VERY well made amps. I just never cared for the ugly paint scheme


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## cleansoundz

The company that bought PPI is bringing back the ART series in 2010 however it will all be made in Korea. Directed really screwed up that company.


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## HondAudio

ghostmechanic said:


> You can actually modify the .2 series to put out much more power than the original Art series.


Stop. Right. There.

Go on...


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## ghostmechanic

HondAudio said:


> Stop. Right. There.
> 
> Go on...


You have to have an O scope & if you don't know what you're doing you can really screw the amp up. You also have to get rid of those fusible links.



cleansoundz said:


> The company that bought PPI is bringing back the ART series in 2010 however it will all be made in Korea. Directed really screwed up that company.


I don't think they did anymore than any other brand. The Korean amps have really come a long way since the original Crossfires & such came out way back when. They're much better than most of the Chinese amps & are the next best thing to being made in USA. We just have to face facts... gone are the days of the extremely over built, ridiculously underrated high current amps like the old cheaters. They aren't needed anymore. 

I'd like to see these new Art series. I wonder if they'll just try to copy the old versions like Orion is doing or if they'll be a new hot design? I think if they try the latter they'll be going the right direction.


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## cleansoundz

ghostmechanic said:


> You have to have an O scope & if you don't know what you're doing you can really screw the amp up. You also have to get rid of those fusible links.
> 
> 
> I don't think they did anymore than any other brand. The Korean amps have really come a long way since the original Crossfires & such came out way back when. They're much better than most of the Chinese amps & are the next best thing to being made in USA. We just have to face facts... gone are the days of the extremely over built, ridiculously underrated high current amps like the old cheaters. They aren't needed anymore.
> 
> I'd like to see these new Art series. I wonder if they'll just try to copy the old versions like Orion is doing or if they'll be a new hot design? I think if they try the latter they'll be going the right direction.


That's why the smart people go on EBAY and find as many of those valuable old school classics that they can find. A lot of the younger car audio population love the Korean, Chinese amps, etc and swear by them. PPI will never be what they were.


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## starboy869

I used to have or possible still have an upgrade sheet for the a600.2 written in very poor english.
I remembered it was for sq and not wrms. Last I remember it was on an old lappy that I don't have a power cord for. 

Chris


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## jmhinkle

Of course I run across this thread just after making a purchase. It's been several years since I messed with car audio at all and decided to upgrade the stereo in my car. I wanted to go old school with the amps, just because the newer stuff never seems as good as those old PPI's and Orion's, but I couldn't find a great deal on the ART series. I had a few PC series in the past that I never had an issue with so I started looking for those too. I happened to run across a beautiful pcx-5800 which seemed like a great buy and I, possibly stupidly, assumed they were the last good ones. Now I've read that they are hit and miss or possibly just completely miss. What should I look for to see if this is one of the good ones or not? Should I just dump it and go back to finding ART or PC class? The thing is mint and has never been opened. Should I look inside for something special?


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## ChrisB

cleansoundz said:


> The company that bought PPI is bringing back the ART series in 2010 however it will all be made in Korea. Directed really screwed up that company.


DEI has done a GREAT job at running every car audio brand they had into the ground. I wonder how long it will be before someone buys Orion from them? 

I had a DEI Orion five years ago... It was repaired twice under warranty then died not long after the warranty was up. I used to routinely argue with John Durbin on the usenet groups because he claimed that DEI's Orion amps were "better" than the originals... Funny thing that I have several Digital Reference amps from the 90s that are still going strong, but a 2005 era DEI product didn't last much longer than ONE year. Better, eh?


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## ghostmechanic

cleansoundz said:


> That's why the smart people go on EBAY and find as many of those valuable old school classics that they can find. A lot of the younger car audio population love the Korean, Chinese amps, etc and swear by them. PPI will never be what they were.


So you're saying I'm not a smart person & I'm part of the younger crowd?

One thing about fleabay, there are deals to be had but there are better ways to get screwed over 

I'm not a fanboy of any newer amps. I'm in the "old school" crowd. I started into car audio as soon as I was able to drive. I was the first of my group that got a dedicated amplifier. Same with subwoofers. I got into repairing amplifiers because it was the only way I could afford to own any of the brands that I wanted. I just got back into car audio a year ago & started the whole trading/repairing cycle again & I've really learned a lot along the way. I've been inside a few newer Korean amps & talked to a few others that do repairs. From what I'm seeing the Korean amps are decently made. No they're not like the amps I love & grew up with. Electronics & assembly have both changed drastically since then.

Some things are the same as they were... you still have to watch what brand you buy because obviously some aren't that great. But the cheaper amps are for the most part built in China. Not Korea. And I have to tell you after working on several later '90s amps that say made in USA on the outside... there was some lying going on about that as well. 

As far as those PPI mods, I've never done any of them. I don't feel I'm at that skill level yet. I've just talked to a few die hards that have. 

And no PPI will never be what they were. Neither will Orion, Soundstream, Earthquake, etc.


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## cleansoundz

ghostmechanic said:


> So you're saying I'm not a smart person & I'm part of the younger crowd?
> 
> One thing about fleabay, there are deals to be had but there are better ways to get screwed over
> 
> I'm not a fanboy of any newer amps. I'm in the "old school" crowd. I started into car audio as soon as I was able to drive. I was the first of my group that got a dedicated amplifier. Same with subwoofers. I got into repairing amplifiers because it was the only way I could afford to own any of the brands that I wanted. I just got back into car audio a year ago & started the whole trading/repairing cycle again & I've really learned a lot along the way. I've been inside a few newer Korean amps & talked to a few others that do repairs. From what I'm seeing the Korean amps are decently made. No they're not like the amps I love & grew up with. Electronics & assembly have both changed drastically since then.
> 
> Some things are the same as they were... you still have to watch what brand you buy because obviously some aren't that great. But the cheaper amps are for the most part built in China. Not Korea. And I have to tell you after working on several later '90s amps that say made in USA on the outside... there was some lying going on about that as well.
> 
> As far as those PPI mods, I've never done any of them. I don't feel I'm at that skill level yet. I've just talked to a few die hards that have.
> 
> And no PPI will never be what they were. Neither will Orion, Soundstream, Earthquake, etc.


My apologies, I definitely don't want to come off as insulting. I am part of the old school crowd as well. I like today's amps but I like the older amps that my friends and I use better. I like old school RF.


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## DinLuca

Hello everyone, im a newbie at sq. I just bought a small PPI sedona 2 channel for my TN44 tweeters, i'd like to ask u guys if it was a good purchase. 

I saw in the first page of this topic someone saying, the sedona series were the budget series also, but it was not clear for me if they are bad, good or at least average amps. 

Thanks


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## WRX/Z28

"PPI" came out with a new amp that is for all intents and purposes a modern art series. They cleverly camoflauged it though, and hid it in with the products you see every day on the forum. They tried to trick you by removing the pretty graphics and stamping two letters on it... 

DO NOT BE FOOLED!!! YOU CAN BUY A BRAND NEW "UPDATED" VERSION OF THE ART SERIES RIGHT HERE:

Car Audio Amplifiers - Car Audio Amps - JL Audio

















Except the J2 stuff.


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