# pro audio has better dynamics



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

This idea comes from a few comments posted by members here in regards to the benefits of pro audio. I always read that PA drivers have better dynamics. I have also read similar leaning comments by Geddes and Danley. If you are to believe Geddes, hifi drivers are marketing hype; inferior drivers with a pretty face. Granted, he uses PA drivers in his builds, so he is not exactly neutral in his opinion. 

So what's the truth here? Do PA drivers offer better dynamics? If so, why? Is it sensitivity, effeciency, inductance, the bigger cone or a combination? Opinions are welcomed, but actual data is encouraged?

Thanks


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

not sure there is a smoking gun parameter that you can point at and say "if this is above X level , then it will sound dynamic" I beleive that more sensitive drivers sound more dynamic, but that is just my opinion. here is my reasoning.

take a highly sensitive driver like a 95db 1w/1m 8" midbass (just as an example) you have 150 watts on tap for this driver, but really only need less than 5 watts to make it loud. if you listen to music with a crest factor of 10db, then you will need 50 watts or so to play your music with no clipping, thus no reduction in power to the driver. at 50 watts you will hear a 10 increase, or 105db of sound.

Take another driver that is only 85db sensitive with your same 150 watt channel. now you need 50 watts of power to get the same level of output that the other speaker gave you for 5watts. with the same 10db crest factor, you now need 500 watts to play it cleanly. With only 150 watts on hand you will clip and run out of power much earlier. you will never make it to 105 db, so your peaks will sound quieter and less "dynamic". add in some power compression for a driver that need LOTS of it and it only gets worse.

may not be totally scientific, but I think some of the effect lies in there somewhere.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I can see what you are saying. It makes sense, and I actually think your 10db crest example is a low estimate for some music. I guess another thought experiment would be to ask if, given sufficient power, would there still be a difference? But then maybe power compression is more likely a factor at higher watts. I wonder also if there are some physics involved with how a larger PA driver interacts with the air mass that is different from a higher xmax, smaller driver typical of HiFi (assuming identical Vd). Spl would be the same in the above example, but is that all there is to it?

BTW, I never found anything were Geddes actually explained why he held this belief.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

motor strength vs. moving mass.

more, and less.

haha...


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

you might be surprised, with mp3 becoming the standard, under 10db crest factor is pretty common. CD is around 20db.

I think if sufficient power were available, that power compression and a limit of xmax would still not be able to make up for a speaker that is 10+db 1w/1m more sensitive.

of course if you go too far up the sensitivity ladder, then good ol hoffmans will bite you in the freq resp dept.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think he uses them because-

He wants a lot of output.
He wants HF extension to mate with the compression driver loaded waveguides.
He is all about constant directivity/uniform polar response at the XO point.
He isn't worried about lowend extension because he uses multiple subs.
He used to work for B&C Speakers.

You can't do what he wants to do with consumer grade "hi-fi" speakers.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

and he wants to make a reasonably affordable system out of drivers that don't have a lot of name recognition in the home audio world.

any extra profit generated would go towards him and not to some fancy build house... or maybe B&C made the off-shelf driver that conformed to his product design at that time.

you start seeing numbers like 130 db in-house, in the conversation and we're past the point of dynamics for reasonable people.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

higher sensitivity is the key. amp power was increasing steadily during last two decades, prior to that time 5-10W amps were standart. used with high efficiency drivers, they produce wonderful results. when power became cheap- most manufacturers developed new drivers with heavier moving parts- decreasing efficiency tremendously. In short minbari is absolutely correct with his answers. 
One of the best hi fi system I heard was 3W tube amps loaded with 105 DB Klipsch speakers. at 3w they get painfully loud. with 1W it`s pure music. 
many manufacturers realised that and started making light drivers again.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

This is why my 1,200w on the fronts is far from excessive and I'm getting ready to add more. I would rather go the efficiency route myself and I have, somewhat on the subs, but I'll have to settle for lots of power on the fronts. On a decent recording, the front stage does sound effortless and dynamic, much more so than when each speaker was getting 75w max. I'm sure a pro audio setup could do the same on 400w total.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I have JTR speakers for my home theater that have a sensitivity of 99db. Even with 200 watts a channel at 4 ohms, I would scream for mercy before they would and they will do it effortlessly with crystal clear sound. Jeff that makes JTR speakers has a pro audio background. The speakers have a pair of 12" speakers but they only go down to 70 Hz as he primarily uses the 12" speakers to keep up with the sensitivity of the 2-way compression driver. 

I hadn't had "pro audio" style speakers before but these speakers are the real deal and I'm a believer now. "Regular" speakers just don't have the dynamics when played as loud as these are capable of.

Westco has heard my speakers and while they may not be the best out there, very few speakers in the world have the combination of detail and dynamics that my JTR speakers do. A friend has the Danleys and I would say they are about equivalent in terms of capability and I'm sure some would like the Danleys better while others would prefer the JTRs. Still others wouldn't like either of them, especially if aesthetics is high on the list of requirements.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

JTR uses BMS drivers so they have good drivers in them.

Geddes uses B&C because their data is really accurate, he has a working knowledge of the speakers, they are highly consistant, he used to work for them, and they make really good speakers, and he gets them at a good cost...but I think cost might be pretty low on his reasons why to use the product.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I remember when he first began, talking about his physics degree and how he was a somebody on diya, and nobody knew who he was.

I remember too, he saying essentially, he'd rather use less expensive drivers that do the job, and not make his speakers too costly to build for the people who were trying out his ideas.

but I didn't know he was employed by B&C and that's why he felt pre-disposed to their products at the time.

that he recommends inexpensive subs in plural and not these uber-monsters, is keeping with that credo I think.

Getting that uniform bass response appears to be easier when you have more than one sub in the room.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

A lot of vintage Western Electric speakers were used in PA applications. 

Now they are in audiophile setups. High sensitivity drivers are ideal because you can use lower power amplifiers that are often better sounding than more powerful amps. A good number of 5-10 wpc tube amps mated to an efficient horn system is a sweet sounding setup and very dynamic. 

High sensitivity drivers are not the exclusive domain of pro audio. Audio Note AN-E signature is 99 dBA efficient, with just a tweeter and 8" woofer. 

What supposedly is the difference between pro audio and hi-fi is durability, a bit more SPL for the pro stuff, and "neutral" vs. "pleasant coloration". 

The vintage pro stuff works very well in audiophile applications, the newer stuff not as much.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

BTW, another thing to keep in mind is that there is lost efficiency with high wattage amplifiers.

Of course this has more to do with real music than bass.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

My favorite topic of all.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

FG79 said:


> The vintage pro stuff works very well in audiophile applications, the newer stuff not as much.


Explain.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That Audio Note speaker...it's 99 dB like the Zu Druids are over 100 dB.

Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Zu Essence loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Don't forget about power compression.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

We talked about this very topic on this thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/154352-8-midbass-recommendation-2.html


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> We talked about this very topic on this thread:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/154352-8-midbass-recommendation-2.html


That's some good info. It is interesting that it is mostly perception that is offered as evidence.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Eric does offer objective fact as to what we are/were hearing.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Orion525iT said:


> Explain.


Well, it's the simple fact that there's a high end following behind Western Electric, Altec, Jensen, vintage JBL. I've heard it and it sounds great.

The newer stuff I'm sure can be ok, but if it was as good or better, it would have a bigger presence in the esoteric high end circles. 



thehatedguy said:


> That Audio Note speaker...it's 99 dB like the Zu Druids are over 100 dB.
> 
> Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
> 
> Zu Essence loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com


Ok, and your point? 

Have you heard both? I've heard the Audio Note and it sounds great. I'm willing to go out on a very long limb and say the Zu probably does not sound as good. I'd be willing to bet good money without even hearing it to make that claim. 

The 99 dBA sensitivity was pointed out to compare to the typical high end offering with conventional drivers. For comparison's sake the Dynaudio Evidence is 92 dBA sensitive:

Dynaudio Evidence Master loudspeaker Specifications | Stereophile.com

An enormous speaker with 8 drivers per cabinet vs. a tweeter and an 8". Cabinet is over twice the size as well. 

It's pretty damn efficient and good sounding. It's only downfall is it is not a big horn speaker. But if you do not need the dynamics, it is one really smooth sounding speaker.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My point is the Audio Note claims are a flat out lie...just like Zu's. You can't physically do what either one is claiming.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

snake juice?

and what about the high end of JBL, they are one of the only surviving "high end" professional outfits going, and they have some high end stuff (K2, Everest, M, etc.) that positively kills.

what constitutes "Pro level" anyway?

is TAD professional grade?

is TAD not 'up there' in high end use of high efficiency product?

none of the other companies are still around in their professional speaker making form, except for the couple I mention.

I'm sure the high end community of 'audiophiles' would appreciate BMS and B&C and Faital Pro and Celestion and 18Sound and Beyma and others, if they didn't cling to their big guns and JBL religion...


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Eric does offer objective fact as to what we are/were hearing.





Eric Stevens said:


> The sound difference is the product of many things and how they interact with each other so there is no simple explanation like lower mass or more motor strength/BL etc. *I think that* a well engineered product is going to stand out and shine over a poor product either consumer or pro. Pro is higher efficiency reduced bandwidth and consumer tend to be wide bandwidth lower efficiency.
> 
> Some observations *IMHO*:
> 1-*My personal experiences* have shown that having a higher efficiency system can never be equaled with higher power.
> ...




I suppose you are referring to this post by Eric. I do not think this counts as data. Don't get me wrong, I think there is empiricism involved in Eric's comments and I am not questioning his acumen, but there is quite a bit of subjective content. There is just as much reference to the sonic character of pro drivers as anything else. But does character equate to dynamics?

The best I can get from this is that power and efficiency are involved, but I think many would have guessed that. Pro drivers tend to be more efficient.



FG79 said:


> Well, it's the simple fact that there's a high end following behind Western Electric, Altec, Jensen, vintage JBL. I've heard it and it sounds great.
> 
> The newer stuff I'm sure can be ok, but if it was as good or better, it would have a bigger presence in the esoteric high end circles.


I think that the very nature of esoteric circles can lead them to be less than objective. So, I do not regard this as evidence.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah TAD is still around and very high end pro audio.

The oldie stuff wasn't pro-audio as we know it, but cinema and audio stuff from the 30-50s when you didn't have alot of power to work with. Some of it like JBL and Altec was domestic and sound reinforcement, like Vitavox and Tannoy of the day.

Interesting Tannoy is using BMS drivers in their latest pro boxes.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I mean when you have been building speakers for 20+ years like Eric has been doing, I would take his "I thinks" with more than a grain of salt.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I've heard that Lowthers are about the most dynamic speakers out there, and their methodology hasn't changed in about 45 years.

Oh, they use neo now, and it's not as expensive to produce as those big Alnico magnets, but permendur is about as special a channel of magnetic flux as any and those lightweight cones can't get much lighter...

so if professional drivers are the stop on the way to the bar, with the bar being Lowther then how far down do the Scandinavians drop, and how much further to get to the Chinese product we see in mainstream use?

if it then, "is" a spectrum on the dynamic scale, professional drivers are not necessarily produced for hi-fi use, but with DSP correction available is it as necessary to be "smooooth," as it is to be strong?

And wouldn't everything end up looking like Dynaudio, with huge voice coils if consumer dynamic grade was a stop on that spectrum?

I'd rather pay Faital Pro prices, or 18 Sound prices, than Dynaudio prices. Even if out the box the Dynaudio are more behaved, and I have all the power in the world.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> My point is the Audio Note claims are a flat out lie...just like Zu's. You can't physically do what either one is claiming.


I don't know enough to know for sure if they can or can't do what is being claimed. They are definitely more efficient than your typical system. 

I heard a Revelator in an actual home speaker and was surprised how inefficient it was compared to the ANs. 

You want the efficiency of horns, you get horns. No two ways around it. 

The strength of the ANs is their tonal signature and "musicality". It's incredible.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Orion525iT said:


> I suppose you are referring to this post by Eric. I do not think this counts as data. Don't get me wrong, I think there is empiricism involved in Eric's comments and I am not questioning his acumen, but there is quite a bit of subjective content. There is just as much reference to the sonic character of pro drivers as anything else. But does character equate to dynamics?
> 
> The best I can get from this is that power and efficiency are involved, but I think many would have guessed that. Pro drivers tend to be more efficient.
> 
> ...


Evidence?

What about the two pieces of elliptical cartilage on the side of your head? Do they not count?

Because you have not heard it doesn't mean it's not true. 

Is a Ferrari not an exciting car because 99% of the world will never own or even drive one?

This objective over subjective thing would have the entire world driving boring a$$ Nissan GTRs because they lap race tracks better than most exotics. Then they find out they have the personality of a....Nissan.

I'll give you one concrete objective fact that cannot be disputed:

Most commercial high end audio gear (Wilson, Dynaudio, Focal) operate on a 8-12:1 margin. Most of that goes to marketing budgets, advertising.

Esoteric brands....2-3:1, tops. 

So that plays a big role in the actual product delivered.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

On the topic of efficiency:

If you want to play real, real loud.....then Eric may have a point.

But at most listening levels, even at high SPL....an efficient speakers/low power amp is a good enough combo to get it done. The advantage of low power amp is better sound quality. 

Smoother, less grainy sound.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

FG79 said:


> On the topic of efficiency:
> 
> If you want to play real, real loud.....then Eric may have a point.
> 
> ...


Really, higher power has a more grainy and less smooth sound? That's news to me. I've always been in the camp that measurements aren't everything but after reading your posts over the past couple weeks I want to jump ship. 

Have you owned Dynaudio, Focal, or Wilson products?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The only way the Audio Note speakers can do what they are claiming is by putting them against the wall or in a corner and getting boundary loading assistance...just like how Tannoy rates their speakers- 89 dB in free space and 92 dB near/on a wall, and only in the bass...which is where they say to place them.

Go to part 2 on Troels site for more about the Audio Note AN-E

High Efficiency Speakers

The Seas 8 used by AN is only 91-92 on it's own.

But then again, 91-92 dB compared to an 84-85 dB is a big difference.

I haven't heard them, and can't say anything about them other than the sensitivity speakers are not correct in the least bit. 98 db from a direct radiating 8 that plays that low isn't physically possible.

Zu is the same way...they are claiming sensitivity numbers for their speakers that are higher than what the speaker starts at...and you can't do that without some kind of horn loading.



FG79 said:


> I don't know enough to know for sure if they can or can't do what is being claimed. They are definitely more efficient than your typical system.
> 
> I heard a Revelator in an actual home speaker and was surprised how inefficient it was compared to the ANs.
> 
> ...


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> Really, higher power has a more grainy and less smooth sound? That's news to me. I've always been in the camp that measurements aren't everything but after reading your posts over the past couple weeks I want to jump ship.
> 
> Have you owned Dynaudio, Focal, or Wilson products?


Ok, let's clarify something real quick:

When nitpicking at the highest levels, the high efficient driver/low power tube is IMO (and others) a bit more SQ setup than low efficient driver/high power tube.

Now, if you have a low efficiency driver, then the higher power amp makes more sense most of the time. If you run a high power amp on a high efficency speaker, it will sound good but not quite as smooth.

BTW, it's not outright power in itself.....it's outright power with certain amps/amp classes, etc. 

We've done a show, and featured two amplifiers. The 100 wpc integrated amp< 60 wpc integrated for SQ, but had a bit more bass. Tradeoff. One way it was settled was the 100 WPC amp was setup with far nicer DAC and turntable....so it sounded better overall while delivering more dynamics -- with smaller speakers to boot. 

Nothing is set in stone. And of course, not everything that is considered "powerful" is something that has a high continuous power rating either. 

So that came out wrong without proper context. I hope it makes more sense now. 

I think we can agree that one shouldn't power an HLCD in a car with a 200WPC solid state amp, right? 

As for Wilson, Focal, Dynaudio home audio products....have not owned any of them but have heard them. What would you like to know? 

For their price tags they are all overrated. I'd say Wilson is the best of those three. But still clinical sounding. It's not my cup of tea. 

The commercial high end sound is a brighter top end and less midrange than I like. Whether anyone cares to agree with my taste is one thing, but the tonal signature is not as warm and full as a good ProAc, Audio Note, SAP, Synthesis and a bunch of vintage systems. 

They image very well, sometimes better than the stuff I like. Good detail, and they look rather cool. The flagship Wilson/Focal/Dynaudio have a "big sound". 

But there's no denying that the outright pound for pound value is not there. And then you are down a lot of money on amplification, sources, DACs, tables, interconnects (and yes, they all matter a lot). You absolutely must factor in price, even if you are filthy rich (which I am not, and most people I know aren't). 

My friend was going to take a Dynaudio Evidence on trade, but it cost more than anything he sells. So instead of taking it off his hands he told the customer to keep it and just sold him everything else to make it sound as nice as possible and it did sound very nice. 

(BTW, a big part of home audio sound is room setup. It's huge, and can equalize for a big disparity in gear very easily)

As for the car, I only like the mid level Focal drivers. K2 and the one above it is "ok", the V30 is nice and the one below that too. Utopia is very bright, and requires a guru tuner and good amps to make it smooth. And even then, why go through the effort, and that price tag makes you want to jump off a building! 

Dynaudio I heard System 360 once -- not bad, comparable to my Morel Elate 6 3 way. Have not heard their Esotar line....so I'll reserve judgment until I do. In my audio experience it would not shock me whatsoever if I liked the MD100/102 tweeter more than the Esotar. I know this is crazy talk to some, but I've been there done that many times. And when you factor in the price of those Esotar drivers, it becomes more questionable. 

I think the Morel Supremo is overpriced and not very good. Looking back I think the Morel Hybrid Ovation and maybe the line below that are better sounding than the Elates. 

I spent $1300 on an Elate 3 way back in '06, and have been much happier with a Hybrid Audio L6 and a Nakimichi SP-10 woofer, which is only about a few hundred bucks. I would never hate on a high price speaker just because it's expensive. It just bothers me when they under perform. 

So a little off track, but yeah I've heard some speakers in car and home. I would have killed for all of this experience back in '06 when my high end listening experience at the time was nothing in home audio and maybe 10 seconds of a Dynaudio system from outside the car (I even remember the song -- "Fallen" by Sara McLachlan, lol). Man, how times have changed.

I went from MB Quart fanboy to Dynaudio fanboy to Morel fanboy all based on literature and many, many hours of forum time. 

From what I've been told those three made better sounding drivers 15-20 years ago. 

A little off topic.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> The only way the Audio Note speakers can do what they are claiming is by putting them against the wall or in a corner and getting boundary loading assistance...just like how Tannoy rates their speakers- 89 dB in free space and 92 dB near/on a wall, and only in the bass...which is where they say to place them.
> 
> Go to part 2 on Troels site for more about the Audio Note AN-E
> 
> ...


The ANs are all meant to be corner loaded for proper bass response. 

Don't know how that helps much with efficiency in the midrange and highs. 

And while we are back and forth on this topic (which I think is a bit silly considering the drivers in question), the AN is absolutely more efficient than Revelators. As long as we can agree that these drivers are a class above what you can buy on Madisound, I'll be content with stopping here.

You have a Rolls Royce in your driveway. Let's talk about the styling, leather, wood....and leave the 0-60 discussion alone.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> Really, higher power has a more grainy and less smooth sound? That's news to me. I've always been in the camp that measurements aren't everything but after reading your posts over the past couple weeks I want to jump ship.


I have read that THD increases dramatically when a high power amp is operated at very low power. So, you should use an amp that matches the efficiency and the desired output of the drivers. But I have no idea if this is the idea he is trying to convey.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It doesn't help with the midrange or treble efficiency.

Well it seems you can get the similar Seas speaker everywhere but in the US. The woofer is 92.5 dB because it is a 4 ohm driver, that is the sole reason it has the sensitivity rating it has.

The tweeter isn't anything special.

So I can't agree that these speakers are better than anything you can get at Madisound or Solen.

But I will agree they are more sensitive than the Scans.




FG79 said:


> The ANs are all meant to be corner loaded for proper bass response.
> 
> Don't know how that helps much with efficiency in the midrange and highs.
> 
> ...


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

The car comparison is very very stupid.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, it's going from what you can measure to how it makes you feel.

Granted owners of said cars may be more inclined to have things based on how they feel and make them feel...and not care about how things measure based on the emblem on the hood.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

is it true, then, that OEM spec'ed drivers are actually superior to what we as hobby-level consumers can expect to find in the online marketplace?

is it that they build them "special" for specialized, possibly optimized applications and those fine drivers won't end up in liquidation sales like M & K, or on Apex Jr's site, or on ebay either?

Maybe we've been getting pushed around by the speaker companies, maybe the Audio Technology thing where you can order your particular combination of motor and frame, was the only time we had access to the very best a buildhouse had to offer...



but probably not, I mean I think the buildhouses make the drivers they think will sell the most, and anything that is a little off due to a peculiar cabinet accommodation, won't sell as well but it doesn't mean it's superior or built with superior parts.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cajunner said:


> is it true, then, that OEM spec'ed drivers are actually superior to what we as hobby-level consumers can expect to find in the online marketplace?
> 
> is it that they build them "special" for specialized, possibly optimized applications and those fine drivers won't end up in liquidation sales like M & K, or on Apex Jr's site, or on ebay either?
> 
> ...


Some manufacturers specify what they want and depending on buying power of said manufacturer building house adjust. Most big manufacturers have their own production lines. 
Most boutique brands use off the shelf drivers, even those with 6 figure prices. $20000 speakers using same drivers you can buy at madisound for less than $2000, including crossover components. $18000 goes into furniture grade cabinets, r&D and profit.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Don't forget marketing/advertising and the middle man mark up...CES and advertising for the magazines isn't cheap.

There are a few who make their own drivers- Dyn and Focal for example, but many are from the usual build house suspects...some might be changed in small ways, some may say they are "custom" and the custom may or may not be performance related.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

that's what I figure, the few speaker makers that take special drivers from the Scandinavia crew, and order special configurations like Thiel, are probably not as universally usable as the drivers the special order drivers are based on.

If someone wanted to clone a set of Thiel 4-way 1st order boxes by DIY and using DSP for their tone-shaping, then it might make sense to be able to source a specialty driver but for the most part, the driver the speaker builder puts on the market sets the standard.


or, maybe it's like a bell curve and the highest performance tweeter in the lower octaves, is also the most vulnerable to damage because of the unique characteristics of it's design.

this would need special filtering, then you wouldn't be able to warranty it like a more durable, but less capable driver.


I think this might be the way Audiofrog is going, they have the ability to create a purpose-built driver for car audio that may have characteristics that require special handling, but within those guidelines it would perform quite well.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> It doesn't help with the midrange or treble efficiency.
> 
> Well it seems you can get the similar Seas speaker everywhere but in the US. The woofer is 92.5 dB because it is a 4 ohm driver, that is the sole reason it has the sensitivity rating it has.
> 
> ...


Seas built the woofer. That's what I know......as far as the design, I never heard it was a stock driver touched up. 

Tweeter isn't anything special, is something somebody would say if they never heard it. It is >>>> Esotar, Utopia Be tweeter all day, every day. 

The whole speaker itself....woofer, tweeter, crossover, cabinet....works, very very well. 

And that's what is lost in the entire conversation -- that all of the sound is coming from the actual drivers, and not the sum of those parts. The AN-E is an old Snell design with newer drivers, cabinet material and crossover. That is all. But the overall effect is much greater.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm not arguing that they aren't...a system designed to work together is often greater than a sum of it's parts. Lord knows there are plenty of home speakers with the latest greatest stuff that sound like poop.

My thing with that example is that it doesn't do, and can't physically do what they are claiming it can do.

But I can't see paying the money they are asking for it though.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> I'm not arguing that they aren't...a system designed to work together is often greater than a sum of it's parts. Lord knows there are plenty of home speakers with the latest greatest stuff that sound like poop.
> 
> My thing with that example is that it doesn't do, and can't physically do what they are claiming it can do.
> 
> *But I can't see paying the money they are asking for it though.*


Never Ever


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> But I can't see paying the money they are asking for it though.


And how about any of those Dynaudio speakers?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

what parts of the pro midrange can be said to be made different from home audio snazzy, is it possibly cone profile, is it edge termination, is it diffraction in their respective enclosure schemes?

can a pro midrange still do what it does, if built to the design criteria of the home hi-fi set?

has the introduction of the uber high efficiency 20K speaker, compelled the pro audio answer to silence? I think not.

There are actual pro audio rigs that do have >95 db sensitivity, real world, right?

and in a similar foot print you have big home audio doing nearly the same, correct?

can you take the drivers of these 20K units, and put them into an aftermarket car system and get the same quality of sound as using the pro drivers?

that would be an interesting question to answer. 

You couldn't do it very well on $1K, where you could easily do a 2-way with sub for that in pro driver costs.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

minbari said:


> not sure there is a smoking gun parameter that you can point at and say "if this is above X level , then it will sound dynamic" I beleive that more sensitive drivers sound more dynamic, but that is just my opinion. here is my reasoning.
> 
> take a highly sensitive driver like a 95db 1w/1m 8" midbass (just as an example) you have 150 watts on tap for this driver, but really only need less than 5 watts to make it loud. if you listen to music with a crest factor of 10db, then you will need 50 watts or so to play your music with no clipping, thus no reduction in power to the driver. at 50 watts you will hear a 10 increase, or 105db of sound.
> 
> ...


I believe this would be the only way to quantify "dynamics" in some way.

It's not a parameter, what is dynamics really? Dynamic Range? We don't spec the the dynamic range of a transducer, that's plain silly. The sensitivity of a driver is directly inverse proportional to the power requirement for a given SPL. When it comes to an amplifier, we can specify the dynamic range.

High power amplifiers does almost in every case wield better results than low powered amps. Want headroom and clean transients? Get high sensitivity drivers or high powered amps, or both (TIM/transient non-linearities are less audible than 'constant distortion'). Note that everything comes at a cost. A high sensitivity either require very large enclosures or have little low frequency output... Hoffmans Law ftw.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

several manufacturers do rate their speakers' dynamic range, only it's in max rated dbs.

if they specify 108 db as maximum, (Kef) then they take into account things like power compression, continuous power rating, enclosure/impedance rise.

the max undistorted SPL rating has plenty of use in figuring out comparisons with other speakers and is used very often in pro audio environments as well.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Me personally? Good god no. I like Dyn and stuff...but I am a horn nut through and through.

If I couldn't have horns, maybe the old Tannoys would fix me or some Altec 212s or 604s or similar.




FG79 said:


> And how about any of those Dynaudio speakers?


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

You can get a hell of a pro audio front end for the price of a dyn midrange

Pass.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Or half of a new TAD2001 compression driver


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Or half of a new TAD2001 compression driver


But they're so awesome


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'll never know...lol.


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