# 2004 Scion xB Daily Driver



## rton20s

This will be my first real complete build in quite a long time. The building of the enclosure will be farmed out to a local shop as I don't have all of the woodworking tools I need to build the box correctly. Everything else will be done myself in the garage. 

The goal is decent SQ on a reasonable budget for a new father. I also want to make sure the rear hatch is still completely functional without having to remove the subwoofer enclosure. I spent a lot of time browsing and listening to different brands before settling on the following purchased equipment: 

Head Unit: Pioneer DEH-80PRS
Amplifier: ARC Audio KS900.6
Front Stage: Hybrid Audio Technologies I61-2
Subwoofer: Hybrid Audio Technologies I10SW
Miscellaneous: Metra 99-8230 Dash Kit, Best Kits BHA1761 Harness, Parts Express 2-Piece Steel Mesh 10" Grill

There are still several things that will have to be purchased before the installation can be completed. That includes, but is not limited to:

Amplifier Installation Kit: Knu Konceptz KFX-AK4-4 + extra set of Karma SS RCAs
Sound Deadening: Sound Deadener Showdown various products
Speaker Baffles: Elemental Designs/Home Made/Local Shop

Currently the only thing installed is the DEH-80PRS in an otherwise stock system. The DEH-80PRS is being run in "Standard" mode currently and has has the the Auto TA/EQ run for the time being. 

As time and money allow, the plan is to run the DEH-80PRS in "Network" and go active with the system. The I61-2s will be run in component mode. The mids will be in the stock door location, mounted in baffles, and the tweeters are tentatively planned for the A-Pillars. Though I have not completely ruled out running the tweeters in the stock dash location for a more stealth look. 

The plan for the subwoofer is to go into a 1.5 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 28 Hz, located in the rear cargo area. The enclosure will go in place of the stock spare and storage cubby. The subwoofer will be centered on the car, but offset in the enclosure. Final port location has not been determined. The amp will be located in the same cargo area next to the enclosure. A beauty panel will be made to cover the enclosure and amplifier, leaving only the subwoofer (grill) exposed. 

The ARC KS900.6 will power the entire system. The first four channels (rated at 60w RMS @ 4 Ohms) will run the mids and tweeters. Each of which will have it's own channel and gain. The final two channels will be bridged (rated at 550w RMS @ 4 Ohms) to power the subwoofer. 

The amp's crossovers will not be used. All sound processing (crossover frequency and slope, time alignment, EQ) will be handled by the DEH-80PRS. I may keep the remote bass knob in play for quick and easy adjustment to the subwoofer. Below is a photo of the equipment before installation. 

I won't be going overboard with sound deadening. The treatment will likely be limited to the four doors, the rear cargo area and the rear hatch. The only other thing planned is a "big three" upgrade. No battery change or aftermarket alternator.


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## JayinMI

Those 80PRS's are flying off the shelves right now. We got two in and had to transfer them right back out to other stores.

Jay


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## darrenforeal

sweet


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## rton20s

Well, progress has obviously been slow. Funds are a little shorter right now than I had hoped, but there has been a little progress. I’m still hoping to have everything installed to some degree before the GTG on June 9th. It will likely come down to a serious thrash session to get everything in on time. 

On to the updates…
The amp kit has arrived. Ordered up the Knu Konceptz Kolossus Fleks 4 Gauge 4 Channel kit + an extra set of Kolossus Fleks RCAs. It got here a day sooner than expected and everything was in the box. I haven’t measured cable lengths to confirm they provided what they outline on their site, but I did note that the split loom was at least a foot short of what they claimed it would be. Not a big deal, so long as that doesn’t translate over to the cables. 
4 Gauge Amplifier Installation Kit
Knukonceptz product detail for NEW KARMA SS 2 CHANNEL 6 METER RCA CABLE

I’ve also had second thoughts, at least for now, on the enclosure design. I spoke with a couple shops, and think for now I’m going to go with an “oversized” sealed enclosure. It will make for a simpler install, and would probably work better with my amp selection as well. Besides, if I’m not happy with it, I can always have another enclosure built. 

Speaking of which, I’ll be taking the image below to a local shop today to get a quote to build the enclosure. This will go behind the rear seat in the hatch area, replacing the spare tire and storage cubby, The center section is the enclosure which works out to about 0.95 cf after driver displacement. The top and bottom panels are oversized for fitment and because I ultimately plan to build a beauty panel to hide the enclosure. 

Obviously this leaves the two open sections on either side of the enclosure that will be hidden below the top panel. One side (likely driver’s side for shorter power cable runs) will be used to hold the amp. The other side will be left open for now with the possibility of using it to mount other equipment (processor, etc.) in the future. The amp will be mounted on some sort of rubber bushing to help isolate it from the vibration of the enclosure. Again, I am going to have a shop do this portion of work as I don’t really have the tools and it seems like every time I try to build an enclosure, I end up splitting the MDF.


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## HondAudio

I am watching this thread


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## Shinju

Dang almost as if I am looking at my own build!


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## rton20s

Shinju said:


> Dang almost as if I am looking at my own build!


Figured it would be pretty close to what you were running. A whole lot of similarities between the two. What are the specs on your enclosure? What amps are you running, and where are they installed? You have a build log link?


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## Shinju

rton20s said:


> Figured it would be pretty close to what you were running. A whole lot of similarities between the two. What are the specs on your enclosure? What amps are you running, and where are they installed? You have a build log link?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-rebuild-hybrid-audio-alpine.html#post1622337


The enclosure has not been made yet but it will be a 1cf sealed fiberglass enclosure.

Curious are you just going to run with out a spare or are you going to relocate it under the chassis?


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## HondAudio

Here's what I've posted about my xB so far:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...435-2006-scion-xb-amp-rack-sub-enclosure.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...my-2006-scion-xb-modular-midbass-baffles.html


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## rton20s

Thanks for the links Shinju and HondAudio. I’d seen both of HondAudio’s threads, but not Shinju’s. I’m definitely interested to see how both builds turn out. 

As far as the spare goes, I’ll probably just ditch it. I ran around for over 2 years on air with no spare tire. I had a one-off air tank and compressor rack my brother and I built that fit under the stock hatch covers, so the spare had to go. The only reason the spare is back in now is because I pulled out the air and went back to just coilovers. I might look at the possibility of mounting the spare underneath. 

Either of you guys have templates (PDF) for the door baffles? Or even dimensions? I know I could pull the stock stuff and make some myself, but it would be nice to just have to crack the doors open once for the install. I’d also considered just ordering up a set from Elemental Designs to save time, even though I know it could be done cheaper myself.


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## Shinju

I made my first set of baffles by hand when i got the car in 2005 new there were no door kits available so I drilled out the pop rivits and took the pioneer pods and traced around the outside edge.

I have an extra set (my original ones). I can try and make a template for you if you like and mail it out.

Also if you still have your stock double din mounting brackets keep them as there are no aftermarket mounting brackets for the xB. I had to hunt a set down in a local pick n pull yard, I got lucky every xB had an aftermarket single din and the last one I looked at that was set to be crushed this weekend had them sitting in the front seat!


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I had a one-off air tank and compressor rack my brother and I built that fit under the stock hatch covers, so the spare had to go. The only reason the spare is back in now is because I pulled out the air and went back to just coilovers. I might look at the possibility of mounting the spare underneath.
> 
> Either of you guys have templates (PDF) for the door baffles? Or even dimensions? I know I could pull the stock stuff and make some myself, but it would be nice to just have to crack the doors open once for the install. I’d also considered just ordering up a set from Elemental Designs to save time, even though I know it could be done cheaper myself.


Did the tank for the airbag system have an extra outlet so you could put air into the tires instead of having to stop at a gas station? 

I've researched putting the spare underneath. There's some... devices... mounted under the trunk/spare area that are part of the fuel system and can't really be moved or tampered with. 

I've put some thought into having a system built with the amp and subs residing where you're going to put then, and maybe having some kind of mounting system on top of that for when you want to travel and need a spare. Maybe a threaded socket and a 1" steel pipe that you could screw in when you want to hold the spare. The socket could be masked by carpet when not in use.

I was mailed a copy of the front door templates from a guy on scionlife.com a long time ago. If you look around on there, you might be able to find them.


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## rton20s

Took my enclosure design and a template I made for the front baffles down to a local car audio shop today. Could have both in my hands by this evening. When I get them, I'll post up some pics.


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## bmxscion

Another xB with HAT front stage.....I just commented on Shinju's thread a few minutes ago. Looking good so far!!!!!! Subscribed to both. I have been following Hondaudio's build for a while, but he is just doing stuff slowly..... I guess my build is going slow too, but hey I have a valid excuse for not working on mine ATM....you know I'm just bustin your balls Hondaudio....it's all good. I have a lot lined up for my setup when I return to the US.


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## HondAudio

bmxscion said:


> Another xB with HAT front stage.....I just commented on Shinju's thread a few minutes ago. Looking good so far!!!!!! Subscribed to both. I have been following Hondaudio's build for a while, but he is just doing stuff slowly..... I guess my build is going slow too, but hey I have a valid excuse for not working on mine ATM....you know I'm just bustin your balls Hondaudio....it's all good. I have a lot lined up for my setup when I return to the US.


Actually, I'm just not posting my photos as often as I ought to


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## rton20s

Well, progress continues to be slow. But at least I have made a little. As stated above I took the enclosure design to a local shop, Zam'z Audio Sound Lab. After some confusion about the specs of the enclosure, Dave at Zam's ended up having to build a second enclosure at no cost to me. The quality of the enclosure and the professional manner in which I was treated will keep me going back to Zam's for all of my local audio needs. Not to mention, recommending his services to others. 

Anyway, on to the pics. Here is the enclosure Dave built for me (specs listed above)...

















The only other work I got done was getting my power wire under the hood and fuse block installed on my cowl. Right now the power wire is just run loose into the rear foot well on the driver's side. And no, there is no fuse installed into the fuse block right now. Took a little longer than I'd hoped to get it done, but part of it was due to using matching button head socket cap screws and nylock nuts to hold the fuse block in place the typical SMS. 

Excuse the filthy condition under the hood. I've got no fender wells right now, so it is a bit difficult to keep the engine bay clean.


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## sydmonster

like what I see here!!...


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## rton20s

Thanks. Hopefully I can get some more progress done fairly quickly. I’m going to try and get the power wire tucked away, scope out a good ground location, get the RCAs run to the back and my mounting solution for the amp done this week. A full work schedule, 9 month old son and busy weekends make sure I don’t spend too much time wrenching on the car.


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## tintbox

Looking good so far. Mine is a work in progress as well. You'll get it done.


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## mrm1776

I love these cars... I just wish my wife would let me get one. Subscribed!


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## Shinju

Looking good!


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


>


I see that you used the wiring grommet above the pedals. Was it difficult to run the cable through there?

Also: this thing done yet??


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## Shinju

HondAudio said:


> I see that you used the wiring grommet above the pedals. Was it difficult to run the cable through there?
> 
> Also: this thing done yet??


I had to run my 1/0 though the passinger side. I will post a couple of photos of that on my thread.

I still need to clean it up some


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## rton20s

I had used the same grommet on the wife’s car with an 8 gauge Tsunami kit several years ago, so thought I would give it a go with the Knu 4 gauge. Definitely a bit tougher with the 4 gauge. 

I ended up making a small slice with a utility knife to make the opening. Then I taped a ½” sheet metal screw to the end of the cable to have a tapered leading edge. It came through pretty easily after that. 

I now have my power wire run all the way into the rear hatch. I ran it, just like most others, under the door sills. Pretty straight forward, but I can’t imagine getting anything larger than the Kolossus 4 gauge under there. I didn’t remove my back seat so getting power cable under the back interior panel was a bit more difficult than the rest. I ended up creating a snake of large zip ties that I fed from the hatch out to the rear door sill. I taped that to the 4 gauge and then yanked it back through. So, for now, my last few feet of cable isn’t zip tied down. The rest is zip tied every 8”-12”. 

And no, it isn’t anywhere close to finished. I got my (MDF) door baffles back from the local shop, and these need to be prepped for the door. I’m going to try to run by OSH tonight for supplied to mount the amp to the enclosure. My plan is to use threaded inserts and machine screws instead of just zipping it in. I’m also going to attempt to use urethane bushings designed for a sway bar as pedestals for the amp, as well as ¼” grommets to help isolate the amp from vibration. 

So the amp feet will sit on top of the large urethane bushings. The ¼” grommets will sit on top of the amp feet and the machine screws will run through the whole assembly down into the threaded inserts. If it doesn’t feel stable, or I’m not getting the isolation I want I’ll either try something else or just lock it down tight with machine screws. 

But yes, I will be scrambling on this thing as much as I can in my spare time to try and have it ready (but not deadened) for the NorCal get together on the 30th.


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I had used the same grommet on the wife’s car with an 8 gauge Tsunami kit several years ago, so thought I would give it a go with the Knu 4 gauge. Definitely a bit tougher with the 4 gauge.
> 
> I ended up making a small slice with a utility knife to make the opening. Then I taped a ½” sheet metal screw to the end of the cable to have a tapered leading edge. It came through pretty easily after that.
> 
> I now have my power wire run all the way into the rear hatch. I ran it, just like most others, under the door sills. Pretty straight forward, but I can’t imagine getting anything larger than the Kolossus 4 gauge under there. I didn’t remove my back seat so getting power cable under the back interior panel was a bit more difficult than the rest. I ended up creating a snake of large zip ties that I fed from the hatch out to the rear door sill. I taped that to the 4 gauge and then yanked it back through. So, for now, my last few feet of cable isn’t zip tied down. The rest is zip tied every 8”-12”.
> 
> And no, it isn’t anywhere close to finished. I got my (MDF) door baffles back from the local shop, and these need to be prepped for the door. I’m going to try to run by OSH tonight for supplied to mount the amp to the enclosure. My plan is to use threaded inserts and machine screws instead of just zipping it in. I’m also going to attempt to use urethane bushings designed for a sway bar as pedestals for the amp, as well as ¼” grommets to help isolate the amp from vibration.
> 
> So the amp feet will sit on top of the large urethane bushings. The ¼” grommets will sit on top of the amp feet and the machine screws will run through the whole assembly down into the threaded inserts. If it doesn’t feel stable, or I’m not getting the isolation I want I’ll either try something else or just lock it down tight with machine screws.
> 
> But yes, I will be scrambling on this thing as much as I can in my spare time to try and have it ready (but not deadened) for the NorCal get together on the 30th.


I'm using a lot of machine screws and threaded inserts on my install, as well. My amp will be elevated on some "feet" I made of 3/4" MDF. I had some scraps leftover from drilling wiring and cooling holes in the amp rack, so I used the round pieces that were on the inside of the hole saw when it punched through. I rounded them over with a 1/8" radius Dremel bit, and I'm going to cover them with the bedliner spray for a clean look. The amp will sit on top of those, with machine screws going through some aluminum inserts in the middle, and down into the threaded inserts mounted on my rack


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## rton20s

Well, I made a little progress today. Had to run by Home Depot... twice... so that slowed me down a bit. I got the threaded inserts installed into the enclosure/amp rack. The picture below shows how I will attempt to use a combination of urethane bushings and rubber grommets to elevate the mount and provide some vibration isolation. The amp "foot" will sit between the red urethane bushing and the black rubber grommet. 

I left one off to demonstrate how the threaded inserts sit in the MDF. The threaded inserts are from OSH and I am using 10-32 socket cap screws to secure the amp. The MDF had to be drilled to 9/32" for the inserts. Of course, one of the few sizes of drill bits I didn't have, hence the second HD run. 

Next up, I'll start trying to lay out my signal (RCA and speaker) runs. I have a feeling I'm going to end up way short on my speaker wire with what was included in the Knu kit.


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## rton20s

Just a minor update. Spent a couple hours this afternoon redoing my iPhone and USB cables, Bluetooth mic and running my RCA cables. Ended up being significantly more work than I had thought. 

The Knu Konceptz RCAs are a really tight fit on the back of the head unit, which should be a good thing. I pulled apart half the dash, the rear seat and all of the interior panels at the back of the car. The RCAs are all run along the door sills on the passenger's side, essentially mirroring the power cable on the driver's side. 

Next up is getting all of the speaker wire run, mounting the speakers, sub, amp and enclosure and maybe even some sound deadening if I can get it ordered.


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Just a minor update. Spent a couple hours this afternoon redoing my iPhone and USB cables, Bluetooth mic and running my RCA cables. Ended up being significantly more work than I had thought.
> 
> The Knu Konceptz RCAs are a really tight fit on the back of the head unit, which should be a good thing. I pulled apart half the dash, the rear seat and all of the interior panels at the back of the car. The RCAs are all run along the door sills on the passenger's side, essentially mirroring the power cable on the driver's side.
> 
> Next up is getting all of the speaker wire run, mounting the speakers, sub, amp and enclosure and maybe even some sound deadening if I can get it ordered.


I also worked on my xB this weekend  I basically finished the panels for the inside of my doors to seal up the midbass backwaves. I still need to heat-form the smallest panels for the holes above the speakers, deaden them and silicone them into place, and deaden and cover the largest panels towards the rear of the doors. I'll try to put pictures up later 

Did you get any shots of the inside of the dash? I've never taken mine out, and I dread having to do it, but the HVAC sounds pretty loud, and I want to be able to see how I can route the RCA cable without being upside-down on the floor :surprised:


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## rton20s

I was right at the point of removing my dash completely when I discovered I didn’t have to actually pull it out. (I had all fasteners removed and the air bag disconnected.) What I found is that if you pull the head unit out, as well as the factory tweeters, you actually have enough room to fish your cables through the dash. 

I wasn’t so much fear pulling my dash or interior, as much as I just plain didn’t want to do it. The reality though, is that the xB is probably one of the easiest cars I’ve ever had to disassemble. Quite honestly, my door panels have been more of a pain (electrical connector) than any of the rest. Save for maybe those ridiculous 14mm bolts on either side of the back seat.

As stated above, I ran my RCA cables (1x 4 channel Karma SS + 1x 2 channel Karma SS) to the passenger side. I fed the cables through the head unit opening with my left hand and pulled them through the passenger side tweeter opening with my right hand. The cables ran above the steel dash support tube and below the air bag. On the far right there is enough gap to feed the cables down to behind the kick panels and then back below the door sill covers. 

My plan for the speaker wires is to run them right up the middle of the car. I’ll have to remove the rear sear and center console, but it will keep my runs shorter and keep them away from both my power cables on the driver side and my RCA cables on the passenger side. 

I’m also going to shoot Sound Deadener Showdown an email to see what he’ll recommend for my build. I’ll try and get that ordered soon, so I only have to tear the car apart one more time… maybe.


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I was right at the point of removing my dash completely when I discovered I didn’t have to actually pull it out. (I had all fasteners removed and the air bag disconnected.) What I found is that if you pull the head unit out, as well as the factory tweeters, you actually have enough room to fish your cables through the dash.
> 
> I wasn’t so much fear pulling my dash or interior, as much as I just plain didn’t want to do it. The reality though, is that the xB is probably one of the easiest cars I’ve ever had to disassemble. Quite honestly, my door panels have been more of a pain (electrical connector) than any of the rest. Save for maybe those ridiculous 14mm bolts on either side of the back seat.
> 
> As stated above, I ran my RCA cables (1x 4 channel Karma SS + 1x 2 channel Karma SS) to the passenger side. I fed the cables through the head unit opening with my left hand and pulled them through the passenger side tweeter opening with my right hand. The cables ran above the steel dash support tube and below the air bag. On the far right there is enough gap to feed the cables down to behind the kick panels and then back below the door sill covers.
> 
> My plan for the speaker wires is to run them right up the middle of the car. I’ll have to remove the rear sear and center console, but it will keep my runs shorter and keep them away from both my power cables on the driver side and my RCA cables on the passenger side.
> 
> I’m also going to shoot Sound Deadener Showdown an email to see what he’ll recommend for my build. I’ll try and get that ordered soon, so I only have to tear the car apart one more time… maybe.


I don't think the door panels are difficult at all! The wire connector on the driver's side is easy - slide back the white ring, and the whole thing pulls out. I'm surprised they didn't use a similar connector on the passenger's side instead of the two separate Molex plugs. The only problems I've had so far is that I bent one of the burgundy fastening "trees" a bit, and I almost ran a self-drilling screw right through the panel on the passenger's side :surprised: I poked it back in and the blemish is barely visible, but I'll always know it's there :blush:

I really wanted to get the dash off so I can do a bit of deadening on the underside - especially around that HVAC box. I've seen photos and it looks like there's a secondary air intake on the upper part of it, behind the airbag, and this makes a lot of noise when the fan is on the "3" or "4" setting.

As for my wiring: the +12v will be on the driver's side, and the RCA will run down the passenger's side, and then color-coded, TechFlex-sleeved speaker wires will run back up to the front on both sides 

...that reminds me, that in addition to making the 4 main colored wires, I also need to make 6 plain black leads to connect the midranges and tweeters to their crossovers, as well as to run from a barrier strip inside the car into the doors :surprised:

One more thing: I emailed Don at SDS last weekend or the weekend before to obtain a shipping quote, and I sort of remember reading his response, but I seem to have deleted it


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## HondAudio

Any updates?


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## rton20s

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...scussion/134440-should-i-make-amp-switch.html


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## rton20s

Well... there is an update coming. Hopefully this weekend. I haven't technically made progress on the install. Ridiculous, I know. But there has been a pretty significant equipment change. 

The wife is actually encouraging me to get this thing finished (especially because of the new equipment), but finding the time has still been difficult. I should have some photos by this weekend. Maybe even tonight if I can find the time.


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Well... there is an update coming. Hopefully this weekend. I haven't technically made progress on the install. Ridiculous, I know. But there has been a pretty significant equipment change.
> 
> The wife is actually encouraging me to get this thing finished (especially because of the new equipment), but finding the time has still been difficult. I should have some photos by this weekend. Maybe even tonight if I can find the time.


I took apart my amp rack to carpet and otherwise cosmetically-finish it... and it's not yet finished, of course.

I've also been working on two different kinds of mounts for my 4" midranges - one that will hide them under the factory dash grills, and a second set that replaces the dash grills entirely and would let me angle them towards the listeners a bit


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## rton20s

Interesting. I've considered doing the same exact thing. In fact, I was encouraged by someone here in DIYMA known for their "Simple" installs to just place a 6.5" component set on the dash (on axis) in pods with them vented down into the dash through the factory speaker locations. 

I'm not going to do that for my build, but it has me extremely tempted to try and do just that with my wife's car and a set of point source drivers. (One build at a time, one build at a time, one build at a time...)


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Interesting. I've considered doing the same exact thing. In fact, I was encouraged by someone here in DIYMA known for their "Simple" installs to just place a 6.5" component set on the dash (on axis) in pods with them vented down into the dash through the factory speaker locations.
> 
> I'm not going to do that for my build, but it has me extremely tempted to try and do just that with my wife's car and a set of point source drivers. (One build at a time, one build at a time, one build at a time...)


The "replacement grill" set of mounts could act as a future base for dashboard pods, but I can't seem to finish everything to get the system even going. I keep overthinking things because it all has to be _perfect_. :blush:

My name is Matt, and I have A.D.D. :worried:


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## rton20s

I hear you on that. Between my lack of time to get the work done and my never being satisfied, this project is taking me far too long. I think those following this thread might be a bit surprised when they see the changes in equipment. I have decided on simplifying some of the install portion of the build though.


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## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I hear you on that. Between my lack of time to get the work done and my never being satisfied, this project is taking me far too long. I think those following this thread might be a bit surprised when they see the changes in equipment. I have decided on simplifying some of the install portion of the build though.


The best installs are always the simplest... but the most creative.

_* Some guy who had a center channel speaker in the front armrest, firing forward and bouncing off the windshield?
* Scott Buwalda's subs in the panels next to the rear seats and his moving kickpanels??
* Earl Zausmer's kickpanel-mounted subwoofers and hidden dashboard elevator pods???_ 

Now we're talkin'!


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## rton20s

As promised, here is the update...

The Hybrid Audio Technologies Imagine I61-2 and I10SW have been sold. I worked with Bing (and Joey) at Simplicity in Sound on a new set of components, subwoofer and additional amp for the sub. 

After demoing several cars at SiS I really did fall in love with the sound from the Illusion Audio Carbons. Typically I am not a fan of hard dome tweeters, but these were certainly unique to anything I've heard before. Very smooth and not harsh at all. I also like the fact that the inverted motors on the Carbons mean they are a very shallow mount mid. That means I don't have to worry about whether or not these will fit my next car. 

For the sub stage I've moved up to a 12" Arc Audio Black (dual 4 Ohm). I would have loved to get a Carbon XL 12 to match the components, but there is just no way I could have justified the cost... especially to the wife. I'm still super excited about the Black and getting it installed. 

Realizing that the Arc KS900.6 that I got through Greg at South East Customz Probably wasn't going to cut it to power both the Black 12, I picked up a KS600.2. 

So for those following along, this is where I am at...

*HEAD UNIT:* Pioneer DEH-80PRS (Active/Network Mode)
*FRONT COMPONENTS:* Illusion Audio Carbon C6
*SUBWOOFER:* Arc Audio Black 12D4
*COMPONENT AMP:* Arc Audio KS900.6 (200x2 - Mids, 155x2 - Tweeters)
*SUBWOOFER AMP:* Arc Audio KS600.2 (800+ x 1 @ 8 Ohms)

I'll need to pick up a some more Knu Konceptz power wire for the second amp. Still debating whether to just run a second 4 ga. or go to 0 ga. to a distribution block to a pair for 4 ga. I'll also pick up some more to do my big 3. 

Also waiting to figure out what I am going to do for sound deadening. Probably going to wait for the results from TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL's http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/146403-sound-deadening-cld-testing.html to decide exactly which direction I go. Before seeing any results, I am leaning toward either Knu or StP right now. 

Luckily, my enclosure is large enough to handle the Black 12 sealed. I'll have my local shop Zamz Audio, modify the enclosure for me to fit the 12. 

Anyway, here is a shot of the new product that will be going into the car...


----------



## [email protected]

Man, a few more containers of that awesome ice cream, and you probably could have "sweet talked" you way into us helping hook that stuff up! Lol...

I feel like I should initiate a race. I have started to work on my truck a little now too.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected]

HondAudio said:


> The best installs are always the simplest... but the most creative.
> 
> _* Some guy who had a center channel speaker in the front armrest, firing forward and bouncing off the windshield?
> * Scott Buwalda's subs in the panels next to the rear seats and his moving kickpanels??
> * Earl Zausmer's kickpanel-mounted subwoofers and hidden dashboard elevator pods???_
> 
> Now we're talkin'!


Whoa, in what way are any of those simple? Creative, definitely!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Man, a few more containers of that awesome ice cream, and you probably could have "sweet talked" you way into us helping hook that stuff up! Lol...
> 
> I feel like I should initiate a race. I have started to work on my truck a little now too..


Hmmm... I might just have to bring all of my gear, and a whole lot more ice cream the next time I come up!


----------



## rton20s

OK... so another minor update. Had some time Saturday and today to work on the car. I completed a second run of 4 awg to power the KS600.2. While I was in there, I changed some of the power cable routing on the amp side. I previously had the power wire running all the way to the very back of the car (into the sill below the hatch). Now the cables turn in just past the rear door sill (driver's side) underneath the back seat. I am leaving some extra cable because of how the amps are installed onto the enclosure. I do need to search out some sort of "retainer" system for the cables underneath the seat. Likely some sort of velcro straps so it is easy if I need to pull out the enclosure, or get to the speaker or power wires. 

Also, with the second run of 4 awg, the single Knu FH-44 was no longer going to cut it. 









So that was pulled and replaced with a Knu KNF-36. This thing is huge, I can only imagine how much bigger the KNF-60 would be. I think these were definitley intended to be installed next to the amps after a run of power cable. Still, I got it to work in the same location as the the old fuse holder. 









No pics yet, but I will try to get some soon. At least of the KNF-36 installation. And I'll try and pull out the pieces Joey @ SiS hooked me up with for trimming out the trunk. He helped me out with making a bunch of template pieces for me. I'll be using those ASAP to finish out the hatch area and get everything installed. Just not this weekend, as I'll be out of town.


----------



## papasin

Looking forward to see more.


----------



## damonryoung

Sub'd!


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## REGULARCAB

Im always in for wiring installs...


----------



## rton20s

So, a couple of things I got to thinking about last night and this morning...

First, after all of that work running power cable (twice), I never did run my remote turn on! So, I'm going to need to pick up some 16 or 18 awg wire to do that. Any problem running this back to a barrier strip and then using that to splice to the two amps? 

And speaking of barrier strips, I am considering picking up a couple of 12 pole barrier strips for the speaker wire runs. I really only need an 8 pole right now (2 way components), but figured I could help "future proof" my install if I went ahead and run the speaker wires for a 3 way setup. One barrier strip would be under the back seat (same for the remote wire barrier strip) and one would go below the dash, behind a panel. It isn't too long of a run, but it could make the disconnect of the amps a whole lot easier if I ever need to remove the enclosure. 

I need to get to making a diagram, I think. It should help in laying out all of the cabling and trying to keep from crossing the speaker and power wire.


----------



## REGULARCAB

I've always liked to draw stuff up when things get complicated. Barrier strips are a good idea. Something I need to do. No point in cutting wires or having to leave slack every time you change your amp rack around.

Not quite sure what ur asking about the remote turn on. You gonna have it turn ur amps on as well when you start the car? Only problem I see there is I have always figured to stay away from turn on pop you always want ur head unit to turn on first.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Any problem running this back to a barrier strip and then using that to splice to the two amps?


I haven't had any problems, and I'm running a single 16 gauge wire to a 4-pole barrier strip, and it's turning on my 3 amps in my sig. 



rton20s said:


> And speaking of barrier strips, I am considering picking up a couple of 12 pole barrier strips for the speaker wire runs. I really only need an 8 pole right now (2 way components), but figured I could help "future proof" my install if I went ahead and run the speaker wires for a 3 way setup.


I'm also using a 12 pole barrier strip in combination with the 4-pole, the ones in the bottom left in the pic below.


----------



## rton20s

REGULARCAB said:


> I've always liked to draw stuff up when things get complicated. Barrier strips are a good idea. Something I need to do. No point in cutting wires or having to leave slack every time you change your amp rack around.


Drawing it up is something that should be pretty straight forward, considering "drawing" has been my profession for about 17 years.  The more I think about it though, the more I think I'll end up modeling the whole back of my car with 3D cabling in Sketchup before it is all said and done. I should probably just get in there and physically just lay it all out in the car.  

I would probably just leave some slack on the 4 awg power and ground runs (likely secured with velcro cable straps), as I do have some depth limitations under the seat. I would definitely prefer to terminate the speaker wire runs with barrier strips though. 



REGULARCAB said:


> Not quite sure what ur asking about the remote turn on. You gonna have it turn ur amps on as well when you start the car? Only problem I see there is I have always figured to stay away from turn on pop you always want ur head unit to turn on first.


Just checking to see if there might be issues with voltage drop, or if a relay might be required. 



papasin said:


> I haven't had any problems, and I'm running a single 16 gauge wire to a 4-pole barrier strip, and it's turning on my 3 amps in my sig.
> 
> I'm also using a 12 pole barrier strip in combination with the 4-pole, the ones in the bottom left in the pic below.


Looks very similar to what I am wanting to do, in terms of the barrier strips. Are you using a relay at all for the remote turn on? Or is it direct to the head unit? (I've always just gone straight to the head units remote out.)


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Looks very similar to what I am wanting to do, in terms of the barrier strips. Are you using a relay at all for the remote turn on? Or is it direct to the head unit? (I've always just gone straight to the head units remote out.)


No relay. But my processor has remote in, and remote out. So my HU's remote out goes into remote in of the processor, and the processor's remote out is going to all the amps. The processor can delay the amps turn on (or off), making sure there are no pops. 

That's why the 4 pole strip too. +12, ground, remote in, remote out.


----------



## REGULARCAB

rton20s said:


> Just checking to see if there might be issues with voltage drop, or if a relay might be required.


Ha, I read that on the pot and thought you where talking about a remote start for your car and running your remote wire off of it..... :laugh: Ive never had an issue with just 2 amps.


----------



## REGULARCAB

rton20s said:


> I would probably just leave some slack on the 4 awg power and ground runs (likely secured with velcro cable straps), as I do have some depth limitations under the seat. I would definitely prefer to terminate the speaker wire runs with barrier strips though.


Ive contemplated using something like this. I cant tell you how many times ive ended up with a power cable too short for the layout I wanted. Well probably only a couple times but you know...


----------



## rton20s

So, Papasin, you're saying the easiest way to make sure I avoid turn on pop is to just add in a processors with remote turn on delay?  Somehow, I just don't think my wallet or wife are going for that one.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> OK... so another minor update. Had some time Saturday and today to work on the car. I completed a second run of 4 awg to power the KS600.2. While I was in there, I changed some of the power cable routing on the amp side. I previously had the power wire running all the way to the very back of the car (into the sill below the hatch). Now the cables turn in just past the rear door sill (driver's side) underneath the back seat. I am leaving some extra cable because of how the amps are installed onto the enclosure. I do need to search out some sort of "retainer" system for the cables underneath the seat. Likely some sort of velcro straps so it is easy if I need to pull out the enclosure, or get to the speaker or power wires.
> 
> Also, with the second run of 4 awg, the single Knu FH-44 was no longer going to cut it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So that was pulled and replaced with a Knu KNF-36. This thing is huge, I can only imagine how much bigger the KNF-60 would be. I think these were definitley intended to be installed next to the amps after a run of power cable. Still, I got it to work in the same location as the the old fuse holder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No pics yet, but I will try to get some soon. At least of the KNF-36 installation. And I'll try and pull out the pieces Joey @ SiS hooked me up with for trimming out the trunk. He helped me out with making a bunch of template pieces for me. I'll be using those ASAP to finish out the hatch area and get everything installed. Just not this weekend, as I'll be out of town.


Where did you run the power cable through the firewall? Did you put it through that rubber grommet with the OEM wiring above the pedals, or did you drill a separate hole? I need to do a 4-AWG run.


----------



## rton20s

I now have two runs of 4 AWG through the factory grommet on the driver's side. The second is just above the first shown in multiple older pictures in this thread. I'll try and get some photo updates next week.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> So, Papasin, you're saying the easiest way to make sure I avoid turn on pop is to just add in a processors with remote turn on delay?  Somehow, I just don't think my wallet or wife are going for that one.



Lol, you're putting words in my mouth, but if that's how you're reading it, well, I can't help you. 

I think the 80PRS is quite good for what it does. Been playing with it for a different vehicle. It's too bad that I can't cross it lower than 1.25k on the tweet. Would be pretty awesome to put a full ranger or point source on that channel and bring it down to 400Hz or thereabouts.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I now have two runs of 4 AWG through the factory grommet on the driver's side. The second is just above the first shown in multiple older pictures in this thread. I'll try and get some photo updates next week.


Whoops. I had to to back and look when I was at home. Most in-line pictures are blocked at work 

Did you use any special tools to go through the grommet?


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Did you use any special tools to go through the grommet?


This time around I cut a second slit with a utility knife above the existing 4 awg run. Then I used some electrical tape to attach a long zip tie to the end of the new power cable. I fed the zip tied cable through the slit on the engine bay side and then pulled it through from the interior foot well. Pretty easy, actually. 

The hardest part was tucking two runs of 4 awg below the plastic door sills. I ended up having to trim some of the plastic bracing on the back side of the front door sill plastic trim with a dremel in order to get it to snap back into place.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> This time around I cut a second slit with a utility knife above the existing 4 awg run. Then I used some electrical tape to attach a long zip tie to the end of the new power cable. I fed the zip tied cable through the slit on the engine bay side and then pulled it through from the interior foot well. Pretty easy, actually.
> 
> The hardest part was tucking two runs of 4 awg below the plastic door sills. I ended up having to trim some of the plastic bracing on the back side of the front door sill plastic trim with a dremel in order to get it to snap back into place.


Is there a hole in the floor brace [that the seat bolts to] big enough for the cables? It looks like the rear brace has some room, but the crossbar's only opening is where the rear floor HVAC ducts pass through :\


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Is there a hole in the floor brace [that the seat bolts to] big enough for the cables?


I don't know. I never lifted the carpet. I went up and over behind the door sills and b pillar cover.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

2 weeks...................


----------



## papasin

:surprised: 










:laugh:


----------



## rton20s

I know. I know! :uhoh2::juggle:

I'm pulling a "To Do" list together this morning and will start on it this afternoon and tomorrow. I'd just like to have everything installed, even if it isn't pretty. And it most certainly won't be sounding the it's best.


----------



## Coppertone

I'm sure that once you install it, it will sound great.


----------



## rton20s

Certainly better than what is currently installed.  

I swear, if I don't get this stuff installed by the GTG I am going to create a sig that shows my car with my stack of gear next to it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I'll be doing woodworking all weekend if you need anything cut or routered.


----------



## [email protected]

That's it? That is the best punishment you can come up with for not finishing?

Come now, we can do better than that!

How about, Free ice cream for Simplicity in Sound for a year if you don't finish!? THAT my friend is a motivator! 





rton20s said:


> Certainly better than what is currently installed.
> 
> I swear, if I don't get this stuff installed by the GTG I am going to create a sig that shows my car with my stack of gear next to it.


----------



## rton20s

I wouldn't mind the ice cream, it is the delivery that would kill me! I completed two lists this morning. One a 25 item "to do" list for the install which has been posted in the garage, and the other a "to purchase" list which all but got completed today. I was literally the last guy out the door as OSH was closing tonight, and that was after racing through Home Depot and Radioshack first. I still need to grab some more heatshrink and a flux brush in the morning. I also placed my order for 35 sf of Knu Kolossus CLD today. 

So tomorrow morning I'll be starting on the car first thing. I only got the first item on my "to do" list done today. Chris, I don't think I'll need any wood work done tomorrow that I won't be able to accomplish at home. If that changes, I'll let you know. Il also report in tomorrow night with how much of my "to do" list gets completed. Maybe some accountability will help motivate me.


----------



## [email protected]

I got my eye on this thing.. We better see some sort of progress pics tomorrow!!!

If I can finish my project at work this weekend, you better finish your truck! (Or at least some work on it!) hehee..

Good luck!!!


----------



## rton20s

Well... I did work on it today. I didn't get nearly as much done as I had hoped. I hadn't planned on pulling out the front seat or carpets, but I did anyway. (Lesson learned... If there is no need for 12 AWG speaker wire, don't buy 12 AWG speaker wire!) Do the car now sits in the garage, gutted. 

I did get my remote turn on wire and speaker wires for the mids and tweeters routed to the rear seat where I have a terminal strip waiting for connections. I've also got the factory speakers removed. It doesn't sound like much, but it had taken up the vast majority of the day. I plan to get back at it again tomorrow afternoon. 

And now that the factory speakers are out, I am determined that they won't be going back in. So while I do have to drive the car ok Monday for work, I now have added motivation to get it done! 

I'll post a pic of the gutted interior in a little bit. I really wish I had ordered my deadener sooner. I wasn't planning to deaden the floor, but now that it is gutted it would be nice to have the materials in hand.


----------



## bigguy

Very interested in seeing this when donr


----------



## rton20s

I was out of town for most of the day and I have to have the car for work tomorrow. So rather than trying to make a bunch if progress, I had to focus on getting the car drive able again. I did clean up a little bit of the wiring under the dash and put some heat shrink at the transition on the wiring into the door where I had to strip the outer insulation off of the 12 AWG wire. 

The seats and seat belts got bolted back in, without the carpet. The door panels went back on, without screws or speakers. The dash went back together, without a head unit. Them, when I was reconnecting the ground (always my first and last step) the ground terminal bolt got sheared off.  So, I had to run by the local O'Reilley's to grab another terminal (and some spare CLD for holding down the speaker wires, thanks Chris!) to get the car back up and running. The new ground terminal is now installed and the car is running... with zero audio. 

I am going to focus on getting all of my work on the enclosure done in the evenings during this week. I will be drilling the holes and installing the threaded inserts and binding posts for the sub. Once everything is prepared, I will install the amps and subwoofer, including the subwoofer wiring. I have been debating whether or not to put any sort of finish on the currently bare MDF enclosure. Eventually it will be covered with a beauty panel (thank you JOey for the work on the templates!). I probably won't waste the time trying to make the enclosure look "prettier." 

Here are just a couple pics. The first just shows the car right after pulling the carpet. You can see the wires just laying loosely on the floor along the exhaust tunnel. The second shows the car as it sits now. You can see the many missing components of the interior. And if you look at the drivers door, you can see that the speakers are out. Just in front of the shifter, you can the wiring as it exits the dash.


----------



## Golden Ear

2 years and only 3 pages?! Glad I found your build log while it was still short, Dustin:laugh: Looking forward to hearing this thing when you're done!


----------



## rton20s

Hey, hey. I haven't quite hit the 2 year mark yet. If I am lucky, I will have everything installed and operating with a month to spare.  I do need to hurry up and get it installed, before I end up buying and selling more gear!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^but isn't that half the fun? Jk

I dont know what's worse, having one project but going slow or having too many to finish.


----------



## JayinMI

Golden Ear said:


> 2 years and only 3 pages?! Glad I found your build log while it was still short, Dustin:laugh: Looking forward to hearing this thing when you're done!


No kidding...I'll be at 2 years around April, and I'm on 10 pages. lol

I specifically never disconnected my factory system nor gutted my car (yet) because I knew I'd be in the same boat as you, or having to drive the car for (probably several months) gutted would suck with my commute.

Looking forward to more progress. I swear I'm going to have to use my vacation time this year to come out to Cali and check out some of these great cars. 

Jay


----------



## REGULARCAB

JayinMI said:


> I specifically never disconnected my factory system nor gutted my car (yet) because I knew I'd be in the same boat as you, or having to drive the car for (probably several months) gutted would suck with my commute.
> Jay


Ahhh come one, having no passenger seat for a month is the best thing i ever did for grocery runs :laugh:


----------



## JayinMI

I've done it _before_, just not this time. I don't miss driving on the freeway, in an economy car at 80mph, and no sound deadening *at all*. lol

Jay


----------



## REGULARCAB

JayinMI said:


> I've done it _before_, just not this time. I don't miss driving on the freeway, in an economy car at 80mph, and no sound deadening *at all*. lol
> 
> Jay


Or with big ol holes to outside where seat bolts should be


----------



## rton20s

I am at the point now where I am literally stealing MINUTES to get work done on this thing. My latest speedbump has been the crazy tight tolerances between the subwoofer opening and the bolt hole locations. 

The opening is cut per Arc's recommendations at 11 3/16" and when the sub is placed in the enclosure I can not find a position where the opening does not overlap with at least one bolt hole. It is so right that my plan to use threaded inserts has gone out the window. I need to examine some more and attempt some undersized (#8 Tee Nuts with machine screws. If that doesn't look like it will work, I'll go to wood screws. 

The few minutes I had tonight were spent cutting some Second Skin Overkill and gluing it to line the subwoofer opening. I know this won't seal (the subwoofer gasket should do this), but I'm hoping the CCF will help center the subwoofer a bit and help even out the bolt hole gap. 

I should have some time tomorrow night and Friday afternoon. Hopefully I can have some photos of the completed enclosure with amps and sub installed and wired by Friday night. Then a full day thrashing on it on Saturday. At least, when my son will allow. Momma has some deliveries to make for some ice cream we sold to help out a local family who just lost their 6 year old son to cancer.


----------



## Hoptologist

Had no idea you had a build log floating around here, but I have been keeping track of how long it has taken you to get that Black installed, lol. 

By the time it happens, they will be on version 5.  No worries though, the v1 is a low-end monster, at least it was in my car. 

Can't wait til you get it all set up so you can drive to Fresno and give me a listen, as I've been dying to hear the Illusion Carbon comps 

I heard about Cash Shank, doesn't get any worse than that, really sad, good for you guys for helping them out.


----------



## rton20s

Hoptologist said:


> Had no idea you had a build log floating around here, but I have been keeping track of how long it has taken you to get that Black installed, lol.
> 
> By the time it happens, they will be on version 5.  No worries though, the v1 is a low-end monster, at least it was in my car.
> 
> Can't wait til you get it all set up so you can drive to Fresno and give me a listen, as I've been dying to hear the Illusion Carbon comps
> 
> I heard about Cash Shank, doesn't get any worse than that, really sad, good for you guys for helping them out.


Yeah, I finally checked out your build log for the first time the other day. I'd really like to check it out if we ever get to meet up in Fresno. I'm actually up there quite a bit. 

Yeah, being a father of a young boy myself, Cash's story was truly heart breaking and inspiring at the same time. I have no idea what it would be like to have to go through that as a father. The rallying of the community and their willingness to support the family has been truly awesome. The response we got for the fundraiser was so overwhelming we had to cut off orders.


----------



## [email protected]

I forgot to ask, when you set the sub in the hole, does it move around? (is the opening too big)

I never had any issues with screwholes overlapping the cutout hole. I never trusted the manufacturer's numbers either though.. Well, I did ONCE...





rton20s said:


> I am at the point now where I am literally stealing MINUTES to get work done on this thing. My latest speedbump has been the crazy tight tolerances between the subwoofer opening and the bolt hole locations.
> 
> The opening is cut per Arc's recommendations at 11 3/16" and when the sub is placed in the enclosure I can not find a position where the opening does not overlap with at least one bolt hole. It is so right that my plan to use threaded inserts has gone out the window. I need to examine some more and attempt some undersized (#8 Tee Nuts with machine screws. If that doesn't look like it will work, I'll go to wood screws.
> 
> The few minutes I had tonight were spent cutting some Second Skin Overkill and gluing it to line the subwoofer opening. I know this won't seal (the subwoofer gasket should do this), but I'm hoping the CCF will help center the subwoofer a bit and help even out the bolt hole gap.
> 
> I should have some time tomorrow night and Friday afternoon. Hopefully I can have some photos of the completed enclosure with amps and sub installed and wired by Friday night. Then a full day thrashing on it on Saturday. At least, when my son will allow. Momma has some deliveries to make for some ice cream we sold to help out a local family who just lost their 6 year old son to cancer.


----------



## rton20s

There is some room for the sub to shift. Probably "oversized" by about 1/16". That is why I am going to try to use the CCF to help center the sub a bit. When I had my local shop cut the opening I gave them the dimensions, but I also left the sub with them to confirm. I assumed they double checked with the sub as when I got it back, it was covered with a thin layer of MDF dust.


----------



## diy.phil

A bump for good wishes!! 
Be sure to sing "all night long.. all night" as you continue tonight thru the entire weekend


----------



## rton20s

Ok... My update for the night. The subwoofer and amps have been installed into the enclosure. The subwoofer is wired up, including binding posts, to the KS600.2. I have also pre-wired the KS900.6 with the wires that will go to the barrier strip under the back seat. I'm really hoping to get everything in tomorrow, but I know I'll have time that I have to watch my son as my wife has a prior engagement.


----------



## diy.phil

Yes!! That looks like very good progress!! Please keep going! Maybe put the kid in the car seat and keep talking and singing to him/her all day tomorrow. Hey... when I do my work lately I have 2 kid pups running around me. The girl puppy sees me with wood/MDF stuff and now she keep bringing in wood chips from the yard into the house like she has a few projects too. The older boy pup is more like a type B personality (normally a bad boy, but quietly keeps patrolling the work site like a security officer... not sure what he's looking for). Have fun there.... you can do it - keep going with your project there!!


----------



## rton20s

Still not done, but at least I made a little progress. I spent a bit too much time time cleaning up the floor from the mess created by driving the car in the recent rains. The speaker wiring from the mids and tweets are pretty well locked down and connected to the barrier strip, as is the remote wire. 

I also spent a bunch of time in the hatch, trying to find the best spot for the ground as well as doing some deadening. If I have the time, I am going to do some deadening on the floor as well. Anyway, a couple of shots just to show some progress...


----------



## HondAudio

Keep it goin', buddy!


----------



## Golden Ear

Way to go Dustin! Keep it up


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for encouragement guys! I'm not going to have much time to work on the car tomorrow, so there will be some late evenings this week. And I'm sure I'll be thrashing to get it finished on Friday.


----------



## Hoptologist

Nice, clean sig, did you make it yourself? I've been meaning to do one...will have to reteach myself everything I've forgotten in Photoshop


----------



## [email protected]

I smell victory in the air!!!!


----------



## steveholt

wow, great work


----------



## rton20s

Hoptologist said:


> Nice, clean sig, did you make it yourself? I've been meaning to do one...will have to reteach myself everything I've forgotten in Photoshop


Yeah. I decided when it was to late to work on the car, I would start messing with a sig. Shoot me a PM with your equipment list, and I can try and put one together for you... AFTER I finish my build. 



[email protected] said:


> I smell victory in the air!!!!


I sure hope so. I would really like to get it finished (sans all of the trim pieces you helped with) for this next weekend. My goal there is to get as many ears on as I can, and get some feedback and tips for tuning. Are you still trying to make it down? 



steveholt said:


> wow, great work


Thanks. I'll try and get some more detailed shots when I am buttoning everything up.


----------



## [email protected]

Right now we are waiting to hear about a proposal we have for a project. If it goes through we will have a very tight timeline, which means I couldn't go. If not, I am going to try and make it.






rton20s said:


> I sure hope so. I would really like to get it finished (sans all of the trim pieces you helped with) for this next weekend. My goal there is to get as many ears on as I can, and get some feedback and tips for tuning. Are you still trying to make it down?


----------



## rton20s

So my last update for the weekend. I was out of town today from 9:00 am until 9:00 pm, and I had to get The Walking Dead in. 

Since I didn't have much time, I decided to focus on the tweeter. Got them all wired up and installed in the dash location. I haven't really played with aiming, but the Illusion mounts are pliable enough that I should be able make adjustments once everything else is up and running. I also went ahead and installed the grills and A pillar covers. They're easy enough to pull off if I need to make adjustments later. 

Just a couple shots of the tweeters installed...


----------



## HondAudio

Did you cut out the 'slats' in the OEM grilles and re-cover them with grille cloth? With the tweeters mounted so deep like that, it seems like the output would get trapped inside the dashboard


----------



## rton20s

I did not, but it was something I was considering. That is part of the reason I wanted to post the pictures of the tweeters installed. Feedback. I know this isn't an optimal installation location, but if there are things I can do to make it better, I would love to hear people's thoughts. 

I was considering adjusting the angle (perhaps aiming them toward the dome light), but thought it might be better to wait and see how they sounded first. I know I am going to have early reflections off of the windshield. And with very little I can do to change that with this installation location, I wasn't sure whether to do my best to mitigate it or to actually direct more energy TOWARD the windshield. 

I've also revised my "To Do" list based on changes I had to make to the installation on the fly. I have completed 12.5 out of 25 items.


----------



## BigRed

Great update. I would suggest u put absorption foam around the tweeter where there is the open hole


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I've also revised my "To Do" list based on changes I had to make to the installation on the fly. I have completed 12.5 out of 25 items.


I know what you mean. I picked up a couple of pairs of Dayton widebanders to make the installation easier, rather than worry about 1/16" tolerances on my dashboard mounts. Now that I've received them, I'm back to designing MDF trim rings all over again! 

The RS100-4s will go where my Boston 4.4LFs were going to go, and, ironically, even though I don't *need* to use the tweeters, now I have room for them!

The RS75T-8s are small enough that I can build on-axis pods, if I can ever come up with a "perfect enough" design :surprised:


----------



## papasin

HondAudio said:


> Did you cut out the 'slats' in the OEM grilles and re-cover them with grille cloth? With the tweeters mounted so deep like that, it seems like the output would get trapped inside the dashboard


Just be cognizant that if you decide to go down this road that you may want to have an extra set of grilles handy. If you're going to compete in MECA, my understanding is any modification to OEM grilles will push you up to at least modified. Just sayin.


----------



## rton20s

BigRed said:


> Great update. I would suggest u put absorption foam around the tweeter where there is the open hole


Thanks Jim. Would CCF be sufficient for this. When I hear sound absorption foam, I think of the Pyramid type foam, similar to what Gary has going on in the Merc. I was planning to run by and just grab a thick CCF yoga mat locally to put under my enclosure anyway and should have enough scrap to take care of the tweeters. 

Harbinger 3/8" Anti-Microbial Exercise Mat Equipment Mats & Accessories



HondAudio said:


> I know what you mean. I picked up a couple of pairs of Dayton widebanders to make the installation easier, rather than worry about 1/16" tolerances on my dashboard mounts. Now that I've received them, I'm back to designing MDF trim rings all over again!
> 
> The RS100-4s will go where my Boston 4.4LFs were going to go, and, ironically, even though I don't *need* to use the tweeters, now I have room for them!
> 
> The RS75T-8s are small enough that I can build on-axis pods, if I can ever come up with a "perfect enough" design :surprised:


My entire build has been about compromise. Seems like I always head in with a clearly defined plan, just to be proven otherwise by the equipment or vehicle constraints. Nothing a hammer, drill or dremel can't take care of though. 



papasin said:


> Just be cognizant that if you decide to go down this road that you may want to have an extra set of grilles handy. If you're going to compete in MECA, my understanding is any modification to OEM grilles will push you up to at least modified. Just sayin.


Good thinking. All of your comments about the classes (as well as the rulebook) have really got me reconsidering my install. For now, I just want to get this DONE! 

That being said, would there be any issue if I reinstalled the spare and all of the cubbies in the hatch and just set the enclosure on top for the first comp in Fresno? I'm not really looking to compete on install anyway. This is not part of the SQL judging, correct? 

I probably will not, and I'll just ride out the season in Street getting dominated by "UNBROKEN."


----------



## [email protected]

Install judging is a totally different thing...


----------



## BigRed

rton20s said:


> Thanks Jim. Would CCF be sufficient for this. When I hear sound absorption foam, I think of the Pyramid type foam, similar to what Gary has going on in the Merc. I was planning to run by and just grab a thick CCF yoga mat locally to put under my enclosure anyway and should have enough scrap to take care of the tweeters.
> 
> Harbinger 3/8" Anti-Microbial Exercise Mat Equipment Mats & Accessories
> 
> 
> 
> My entire build has been about compromise. Seems like I always head in with a clearly defined plan, just to be proven otherwise by the equipment or vehicle constraints. Nothing a hammer, drill or dremel can't take care of though.
> 
> 
> 
> Good thinking. All of your comments about the classes (as well as the rulebook) have really got me reconsidering my install. For now, I just want to get this DONE!
> 
> That being said, would there be any issue if I reinstalled the spare and all of the cubbies in the hatch and just set the enclosure on top for the first comp in Fresno? I'm not really looking to compete on install anyway. This is not part of the SQL judging, correct?
> 
> I probably will not, and I'll just ride out the season in Street getting dominated by "UNBROKEN."


I would use this

Sonic Barrier 1" Acoustic Foam w/PSA 18" x 24" | 260-525


----------



## rton20s

BigRed said:


> I would use this
> 
> Sonic Barrier 1" Acoustic Foam w/PSA 18" x 24" | 260-525


Awesome. Thanks Jim. Any place else I might want/need to use this stuff? I'll place an order today and want to make sure I get all I need in a single order. I would think a single 18"x24" sheet would be plenty for the tweeters.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin I have 3 sheets of the half inch version if you need it for anything else.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Dustin I have 3 sheets of the half inch version if you need it for anything else.


I sent you a PM.


----------



## papasin

[email protected] said:


> Install judging is a totally different thing...





rton20s said:


> That being said, would there be any issue if I reinstalled the spare and all of the cubbies in the hatch and just set the enclosure on top for the first comp in Fresno? I'm not really looking to compete on install anyway. This is not part of the SQL judging, correct?


JOey is absolutely correct. If you are competing "install", that is a totally different category (and scoresheet).

However, the type of install you have (more appropriately identified as "classification") will determine what class you compete in and with whom.

As you've looked at the MECA rulebook, there are 7 SQ classes, from lowest to highest:

Stock
Street
Mod Street
Modified
MODEX
Extreme
Master

As for the question about re-installing the spare, the SQ verification judge for your first comp you enter would need to evaluate your entire install and determine whether your particular install fits within whichever class, whether it be stock, street, etc. If your goal is to build to a certain class just try to look at the rulebook and feel free to ask questions. But for stock, it pretty much is that. All stock locations for speakers except tweeters (can be in stock location, sails, or a-pillar flushmounted) and sub (sub has to be in rear most storage area unless caveats in rulebook pertain), processing of 16 bands or less, spare tire in the original location, battery cannot be relocated or have extra batteries, no cutting of plastic or metal of any kind, etc. If there are any questions or issues that arise during classification, it needs to be documented per rule 14 in the judging criteria, and so long as you don't change your install during the season the ruling should stand. This is a new rule this year and I personally think is a good step in the right direction.

"14. Any rule interpretations made during an event will be recorded on a log sheet. This sheet as well as an email will be passed to the MECA R&E Committee to give final approval of any issues that arise which may not be clearly identified in the rules. The MECA R&E Committee will have 5 days to make a final decision regarding any rule interpretations; decisions made will be final for the remainder of the season."

Hope this helps.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks Richard. I have read through the 2014 rulebook class sections several times (as well as the 2013 version before that). I think every single part of my install is compliant with the "Stock" class except for the removal of the spare tire. Hence, the bump up to "Street" and much tougher competition. 

Talking about the "cutting of plastic"... I have not touched my door panels yet, but it is very common for Scion guys to trim out the plastic behind the grill on the door due to clearance issues with baffles. Would something like what is shown in the link below seriously be enough to bump me up to "Modified?!"

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showpost.php?p=653419&postcount=5


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Talking about the "cutting of plastic"... I have not touched my door panels yet, but it is very common for Scion guys to trim out the plastic behind the grill on the door due to clearance issues with baffles. Would something like what is shown in the link below seriously be enough to bump me up to "Modified?!"
> 
> Scionlife.com - View Single Post - eDi speakers install in front doors of xB


You are allowed to trim up to 1/2" in street for the speaker hole. If you intend to do what you are indicating of trimming the plastic, my opinion (and take it entirely as that) is if I were the verification judge that day, I would probably put you in street, and then get MECA R&E to verify/validate that based on the action of cutting that plastic. I believe the rule with respect to the speaker grill modification of moving up to modified is if you completely cut out the grill, then replace it with just grill cloth to allow the midrange to breathe and provide an SQ advantage...in which case, that is my interpretation of the intent of that rule and why it moves one into Modified. If you leave the stock grill alone, and are trimming the plastic behind the grill to accommodate for a deeper midrange driver, that (IMHO) is a Street classification...but that is all subject to verification.

My $0.02 FWIW.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks Richard. I am trying not to trim, but I haven't checked my baffle size and speaker fitment against the door panel yet.


----------



## diy.phil

Dustin, later when you have a chance maybe just make a pair of dash brackets or print a mirrored pair Maybe something like this where you can tilt/set it to a certain angle that you like.
Good progress in the past few days!! Keep going! Have fun there!!


----------



## rton20s

Funny you should say print. There was just some serious conversation in the office today about picking up a 3D printer.  I'll be the one to do the shopping around to see what might best meet our needs.


----------



## diy.phil

ha ha nice!!! You'll have great brackets soon!!


----------



## [email protected]

this is just my take, so do with it what you will. Don't worry about competing or rules at all. Build the system how you want to , and how you will be most happy with it. Then if you want to go compete, go do it and have fun. It isn't like there are 30 cars in each class at each event anyway. You have to live with the vehicle and will only be competing a handful of times a year. So, make it what YOU want, and don't get too caught up in rules. If you compete, do it to have fun, and don't worry about what class you will be in...


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> this is just my take, so do with it what you will. Don't worry about competing or rules at all. Build the system how you want to , and how you will be most happy with it. Then if you want to go compete, go do it and have fun. It isn't like there are 30 cars in each class at each event anyway. You have to live with the vehicle and will only be competing a handful of times a year. So, make it what YOU want, and don't get too caught up in rules. If you compete, do it to have fun, and don't worry about what class you will be in...


Thanks JOey. That really is right where I am at with it. But you know how I am. Always over analyzing and second guessing. Right now, the car is built for me and it will likely stay that way. The competition thing is absolutely just for fun, and I know I won't be able to compete with the big boys in "Street." And I am ok with that. 

Who knows though... if the competition bug really bites you might be hearing from me about some DSP options. But not right now. Right now, I just want to get the install done!


----------



## papasin

[email protected] said:


> this is just my take, so do with it what you will. Don't worry about competing or rules at all. Build the system how you want to , and how you will be most happy with it. Then if you want to go compete, go do it and have fun. It isn't like there are 30 cars in each class at each event anyway. You have to live with the vehicle and will only be competing a handful of times a year. So, make it what YOU want, and don't get too caught up in rules. If you compete, do it to have fun, and don't worry about what class you will be in...


^ this. This site needs a like button.  As for being "competitive", don't sell yourself short either. It's been said a few different times in other threads that the difference in the first place cars at the 2013 MECA world championship for street, mod street, and modified were all fractions of a point. Actually, the top mod street vehicle outscored the top modified vehicle last year. Also, if you have ideas of where you want your install to go, you are also welcome to compete in a higher class than you would be classified for (nothing wrong with doing that as far as I am aware). "Future proofing".


----------



## rton20s

Well, my wallet and my wife currently dictate that my install isn't going anywhere anytime soon.


----------



## damonryoung

[email protected] said:


> this is just my take, so do with it what you will. Don't worry about competing or rules at all. Build the system how you want to , and how you will be most happy with it. Then if you want to go compete, go do it and have fun. It isn't like there are 30 cars in each class at each event anyway. You have to live with the vehicle and will only be competing a handful of times a year. So, make it what YOU want, and don't get too caught up in rules. If you compete, do it to have fun, and don't worry about what class you will be in...



Definitely the best piece of advice I've heard on this site in a long time! 

Thinker and doer! JOey is a renaissance man!


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## rton20s

I wouldn't be where I am now with my build if it weren't for JOey and several other great DIYMA members. JOey has very selflessly contributed to my build and encouraged me to keep moving on it. All while asking for nothing in return. Well... maybe a little ice cream from time to time.


----------



## BigRed

[email protected] said:


> this is just my take, so do with it what you will. Don't worry about competing or rules at all. Build the system how you want to , and how you will be most happy with it. Then if you want to go compete, go do it and have fun. It isn't like there are 30 cars in each class at each event anyway. You have to live with the vehicle and will only be competing a handful of times a year. So, make it what YOU want, and don't get too caught up in rules. If you compete, do it to have fun, and don't worry about what class you will be in...


^^ Exactly!!


----------



## [email protected]

BigRed said:


> Great update. I would suggest u put absorption foam around the tweeter where there is the open hole


I can see this being a good idea, what is acoustic reason for it? I have no doubt about it being important for any sort of midrange/bass, what happens with the higher frequencies if the tweeter is just sitting out in the open like that? (I have seen bing do that before so this will give me something else to pick on him about!  )


----------



## BigRed

[email protected] said:


> I can see this being a good idea, what is acoustic reason for it? I have no doubt about it being important for any sort of midrange/bass, what happens with the higher frequencies if the tweeter is just sitting out in the open like that? (I have seen bing do that before so this will give me something else to pick on him about!  )


my experience has been there can be a ripple in the response. look up diffraction when you have some time. Or better yet, measure next time you do an install with suspended tweeters.


----------



## [email protected]

BigRed said:


> my experience has been there can be a ripple in the response. look up diffraction when you have some time. Or better yet, measure next time you do an install with suspended tweeters.


The next time bing uses those suspended tweeter mounts I will put some foam around one side and we will look at the difference. 

I looked up diffraction. It seems to deal with sound either going around an object in front of it, or through an opening. Both instances I read about seemed to deal with something in front of the source of the sound. I wasn't quite sure how to relate that to the tweeters being suspended with no plane around them.


----------



## rton20s

And, tonight's status update. I got a little later start tonight because I was off helping out TooStubborn since he was helping me out by giving me some of the foam BigRed linked to. 

*The enclosure is IN!* I picked up a 3/8" thick CCF exercise mat at Big 5 and cut it to size to place under the enclosure. There is an irregularly shaped, hollow plastic piece that sits below the enclosure and I wanted to make sure to try and address the rattles that might be introduced before I dropped the enclosure in. 

The RCAs are connected but not all buttoned up. The power, ground and remote wires are connected as well. The remote wires have been terminated to the barrier strip and that is where I called it quits for the night just before midnight. I'll pick it up tomorrow and terminate and label all of the speaker wires. Then... on to the doors for the mids as well as some more deadening. 

And on with the pics...

























The tolerances could be a little tighter, but then the enclosure would have to be built inside of the car and I would certainly need some 90 degree RCAs.


----------



## Hoptologist

Awesome man, I'm excited for you


----------



## [email protected]

OH YEAH!!!!!


----------



## JayinMI

What's your opinion on the Black 12? I've seen it referred to (in this thread, I believe) as a "low end monster." I did a 10" in a Touareg and it went surprisingly low...and was enough to get things moving inside a medium sized SUV. 

Nice progress. This is temporary mounting for your enclosure/amp rack for the show, right? Does it normally sit lower in the car?

Jay


----------



## bigguy

Nice.


----------



## HondAudio

diy.phil said:


> Dustin, later when you have a chance maybe just make a pair of dash brackets or print a mirrored pair Maybe something like this where you can tilt/set it to a certain angle that you like.
> Good progress in the past few days!! Keep going! Have fun there!!


Ooh, I need to design brackets like that for my midranges!


----------



## rton20s

Hoptologist said:


> Awesome man, I'm excited for you





[email protected] said:


> OH YEAH!!!!!





bigguy said:


> Nice.


Thanks guys. It is getting there. Slowly. 

I was really wanting to get all of the speaker wires terminated and labeled before quitting, but it was getting late and I was getting tired. I'm sure I would have made a stupid mistake, so I called it quits for the night. 

I'm going to owe my wife big time once this is all "done." Disappearing into the garage every night for two weeks while my son has a meltdown as she is trying to make ice cream is not a good way to score points with your wife. Just so you all are aware. 

Hoptologist, are you going to make it to the MECA show at Audio Innovations on the 22nd?


----------



## rton20s

JayinMI said:


> What's your opinion on the Black 12? I've seen it referred to (in this thread, I believe) as a "low end monster." I did a 10" in a Touareg and it went surprisingly low...and was enough to get things moving inside a medium sized SUV.
> 
> Nice progress. This is temporary mounting for your enclosure/amp rack for the show, right? Does it normally sit lower in the car?
> 
> Jay


I'll let you know once I actually get to hear it play! I went with the Black 12 largely because of reputation and recommendation by Bing and JOey at Simplicity in Sound. That, and I just couldn't afford an Illusion C12XL. 

I do think I have managed expectations. I'll definitely post up my impressions once I have some seat time with the completed system. I'd also like to check out Hoptologist's ride as I believe he has a complete Arc Black system with a pair of Black 12s. 




HondAudio said:


> Ooh, I need to design brackets like that for my midranges!


No kidding! I'm like a giddy kid right before Christmas just thinking about the prospect of our office getting a 3D printer. (The ad above my post right now is for the Form Labs Form 1.  ) Something tells me building models wont be the only thing getting printed in house.


----------



## diy.phil

ummm you guys both be sure to look for big printers to print big brackets ok?!!


----------



## rton20s

Printers to produce something for brackets as big as those needed for say door baffles, etc. jump up quite a bit in price. It would probably be a pretty hard sell for my office. Smaller mid-ranges and pillar pods probably wouldn't be an issue with the printers we would be considering. However, I believe you can always print the brackets in interlocking sections to be glued together.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> No kidding! I'm like a giddy kid right before Christmas just thinking about the prospect of our office getting a 3D printer. (The ad above my post right now is for the Form Labs Form 1.  ) Something tells me building models wont be the only thing getting printed in house.


Building models, huh? Do you work in an architecture office?


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Building models, huh? Do you work in an architecture office?


Yep. Project manager at a firm specializing in K-12 school design in Central California.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Yep. Project manager at a firm specializing in K-12 school design in Central California.


I have a bunch of friends from USC's architecture program who work in LA. I couldn't give you a rundown on all the firms, though


----------



## Hoptologist

rton20s said:


> Hoptologist, are you going to make it to the MECA show at Audio Innovations on the 22nd?


I'm not sure, I wouldn't go to compete, but are they like G2G's where you can spend time demo'ing vehicles? Or do people usually jet out after they get judged?

I need to start auditioning possible 3-way speakers. I couldn't be more pissed off at my doors. I'm at a complete loss. The outer door skins are completely Hushmatted and covered with 10 or so Blackhole Tiles, the rest of the door is completely covered in Hushmat and then Ensolite, and the door card is also completely deadened. The lock mechanism and rods are covered in foam. The doors feel like they weigh a ton. I don't even want to know how much money I've spent on my doors, and yet, they give me LOADS of resonance, and completely kill the mood of many songs. 

I've cut the 315hz band on my deck down to -6. Yeah, it sounds like there's now a hole in my soundstage, but at least the resonance is gone. The only thing left to try is moving to a 3-way setup, cut my door speakers off at 250hz and let the midrange take over from there, since 315hz is the trouble spot. Unless a different 2-way set would cure my issues, but I don't see how.

And actually, it's my freaking windows. If I crack my windows the smallest bit, no more resonance. With the windows up, if I push on them with my elbow or hand while playing music, no more resonance. But if I don't do either of those 2 things- AAAAAAHHHHHH!!

Sorry for the rant. If you're gonna be at the show, I'd come just to hear your ride and meet you. Now, I need a beer.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^hop, sometime I need to check out your ride. I might have some ideas to kill the resonance.


----------



## rton20s

Hoptologist said:


> I'm not sure, I wouldn't go to compete, but are they like G2G's where you can spend time demo'ing vehicles? Or do people usually jet out after they get judged?


I've only ever attended one other competition, and it was one at Audio Innovations last year. I didn't compete and just went to hang out. It was a pretty relaxed atmosphere, and everyone seemed to be sticking around for the most part. From what I can tell, there will be a lot of DIYMA/WCA folks there that you could get to meet. Some might even have some thoughts on how to help kill your resonance. 

And being local, it isn't too far out of your way to head home if you get bored.


----------



## rton20s

So, I grabbed lunch with the wife today and she initiated a conversation about the stereo. She asked how far I had gotten with the install and I showed her the pics on my phone that I posted in the thread. 

Her: That sits a lot higher than I thought it would. 
Me: I know, but it is the space I need for the subwoofer. 
Her: Is it going to be really loud? 
Me: What do you mean?
Her: Like a lot of bass? Or like a concert, like those other cars? (Her last demo was MrsPapasin's Smart)
Me: (Laughing) More like a concert. A bit of a combination. There should be bass when I want it. 
Her: OK, I just want to make sure you'll have plenty of bass. 

Completely not what I was expecting her response to be. So now I'm not sure whether to demo something really bass heavy once I have this broken in so she wants to jump out of the car? Or whether to EQ out all of my bass as an excuse to get more/better subs?


----------



## quietfly

rton20s said:


> So, I grabbed lunch with the wife today and she initiated a conversation about the stereo. She asked how far I had gotten with the install and I showed her the pics on my phone that I posted in the thread.
> 
> Her: That sits a lot higher than I thought it would.
> Me: I know, but it is the space I need for the subwoofer.
> Her: Is it going to be really loud?
> Me: What do you mean?
> Her: Like a lot of bass? Or like a concert, like those other cars? (Her last demo was MrsPapasin's Smart)
> Me: (Laughing) More like a concert. A bit of a combination. There should be bass when I want it.
> Her: OK, I just want to make sure you'll have plenty of bass.
> 
> Completely not what I was expecting her response to be. So now I'm not sure whether to demo something really bass heavy once I have this broken in so she wants to jump out of the car? Or whether to EQ out all of my bass as an excuse to get more/better subs?



LOL i think you should just be happy she's cool with it at all... my wife doesn't understand my NEED to constantly upgrade.......


----------



## papasin

Lol. Uh, yeah, when she demo'd Linda's Smart, that was before the new amps. Uh, I think now, it can get pretty darn loud. If that's not enough, have her sit in my Civic. 



rton20s said:


> So, I grabbed lunch with the wife today and she initiated a conversation about the stereo. She asked how far I had gotten with the install and I showed her the pics on my phone that I posted in the thread.
> 
> Her: That sits a lot higher than I thought it would.
> Me: I know, but it is the space I need for the subwoofer.
> Her: Is it going to be really loud?
> Me: What do you mean?
> Her: Like a lot of bass? Or like a concert, like those other cars? (Her last demo was MrsPapasin's Smart)
> Me: (Laughing) More like a concert. A bit of a combination. There should be bass when I want it.
> Her: OK, I just want to make sure you'll have plenty of bass.
> 
> Completely not what I was expecting her response to be. So now I'm not sure whether to demo something really bass heavy once I have this broken in so she wants to jump out of the car? Or whether to EQ out all of my bass as an excuse to get more/better subs?


----------



## papasin

Hoptologist said:


> I'm not sure, I wouldn't go to compete, but are they like G2G's where you can spend time demo'ing vehicles? Or do people usually jet out after they get judged?


I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to compete or not. But generally, I plan on being there and you are more than welcome to take a listen whichever ride I/we bring.


----------



## rton20s

You also have to understand that up until last year her car has had the factory head unit and speakers plus a 450w amp to a single 10 under the front passenger seat. Then I swapped the stock head unit (it was having trouble ejecting CDs) for the Apline CDE-147BT. I've also got a set of Illusion E6 components and an Eclipse XA5000 ready to drop in once I've finished my own build. 

Richard, I was trying to get her to go down with me this Saturday, but I don't think she will make it. She will probably swing by at some point on the 22nd though. Her parents only live a few blocks from Audio Innovations. 

She does think I am a little nuts buying that for her car. Really though, I probably spend as much time, if not more in her car than I do mine.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to compete or not. But generally, I plan on being there and you are more than welcome to take a listen whichever ride I/we bring.


It'll be worth it just to demo a Carbon XL.


----------



## Hoptologist

Sweet, didn't know so many DIYMA folks were planning to be there. Wonder if BuickGN is going to make the trip, I still really want to hear his ride. 

Can't wait to hear the Illusion XL, although after just having gotten my 2 Arc Blacks, I'm kind of scared because I can't afford to get upgradeitis just yet! 

TOOSTUBORN2FAIL- Would love to hear your thoughts on my door issues, will you be coming up here on the 22nd too?

I'll actually be in Visalia tomorrow night to see Son Lux perform at Cellar Door, love their latest album so it should be fun.


----------



## quality_sound

JayinMI said:


> What's your opinion on the Black 12? I've seen it referred to (in this thread, I believe) as a "low end monster." I did a 10" in a Touareg and it went surprisingly low...and was enough to get things moving inside a medium sized SUV.
> 
> Nice progress. This is temporary mounting for your enclosure/amp rack for the show, right? Does it normally sit lower in the car?
> 
> Jay





rton20s said:


> Thanks guys. It is getting there. Slowly.
> 
> I was really wanting to get all of the speaker wires terminated and labeled before quitting, but it was getting late and I was getting tired. I'm sure I would have made a stupid mistake, so I called it quits for the night.
> 
> I'm going to owe my wife big time once this is all "done." Disappearing into the garage every night for two weeks while my son has a meltdown as she is trying to make ice cream is not a good way to score points with your wife. Just so you all are aware.
> 
> Hoptologist, are you going to make it to the MECA show at Audio Innovations on the 22nd?



I'm not sure where in CA you are, but if you find yourself in, or are close to Modesto, call Arc and see if Fred has time for a demo of his Saturn. He's got the Black 12s running IB in it. It's ****ing amazing.


----------



## rton20s

Well, I got a later start last night, but stuck to it until about 12:30. Biggest lesson learned? Do not shine your shop lights on the door you are about to pull the stock plastic liners off of prior to starting! The butyl became extremely sticky and the plastic liner was absolutely destroyed in removing it. When I went to the other door (no shop lights), the entire plastic liner pulled off easily along with 95%+ of the butyl. Stock liners have now taken up residence in the trash. 

I don't feel like I got too much accomplished, but I put the hours in. The wiring is now complete and has been terminated to the barrier strip beneath the back seat. The door baffles are drilled and ready to mount once I pick up the hardware and some bed liner to paint them. I don't think I'm going to have to trim the door card at all. I've also done the first round of door deadening. 

Not sure of my percentage of coverage, but it does exceed 25%. I didn't want to get too crazy with coverage yet, and I am trying to stretch the quantity of deadener I purchased. I want to go ahead and do the floors and hatch door now. Floors first, as I don't plan on pulling the carpet back up. Depending on where I end up, I might toss some in the back doors as well. 

And what everyone really comes into these threads for, the pics...

Terminated wiring under the back seat. Because directly below the sheet metal is the gas tank, everything is fastened with industrial strength velcro. From my quick testing, it seems to hold everything in place quite well, while providing flexibility for adjustment and removal. 









Passenger door deadening, round one. Anything that appeared to resonate with a "knock test" got some deadener. As you can see, I am using Knu Konceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus Edition. Doing knock test comparisons, the difference is significant. The driver door has received identical deadening. We'll see how well this will translate to driver performance. As time allows (not before this weekend), I will seal up all of the holes and add CCF and MLV per SDS's tutorial.


----------



## captainobvious

Coming along nicely there sir. Keep up the good work. It's a marathon, not a sprint so just get in the time when/where you can and you'll make steady progress


----------



## rton20s

captainobvious said:


> Coming along nicely there sir. Keep up the good work. It's a marathon, not a sprint so just get in the time when/where you can and you'll make steady progress


Thanks. The self-imposed deadline of the March 8 GTG has been a tremendous help. Most of this stuff has just been stacked up in spare bedroom for the better part of a year. Or more. 

Because of the tight deadline I wasn't even planning to deaden the car yet. Now, I am planning to deaden the floors, which was never in the plan at all! The quickly approaching March 22 MECA show in Fresno has also helped motivate me to pack a bit more into the install than initially planned for this round. 

And of course, me being me, I have expanded my "To Do" list to 28 items, including doing the "Big 3." The list is a bit more encouraging now, with 17 of the 28 items completed. And many of the remaining 11 items should be quick to accomplish, or have to do with the tuning of the system.


----------



## bigguy

rton20s said:


> Passenger door deadening, round one. Anything that appeared to resonate with a "knock test" got some deadener. As you can see, I am using Knu Konceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus Edition. Doing knock test comparisons, the difference is significant. The driver door has received identical deadening. We'll see how well this will translate to driver performance. As time allows (not before this weekend), I will seal up all of the holes and add CCF and MLV per SDS's tutorial.


I really like the idea of mounting the barrier strips there, never thought of doing it that way. If I remember correctly there is enough slack in the wire bundle to run all the wires throughout he same hole with the grommet in it.


----------



## rton20s

bigguy said:


> I really like the idea of mounting the barrier strips there, never thought of doing it that way. If I remember correctly there is enough slack in the wire bundle to run all the wires throughout he same hole with the grommet in it.


There is actually no grommet back there. Because of the open "hatch back" design of the xB, the cables simply travel under the seat cushion and then over the metal seat rail. 

The only things not terminated to the barrier strips are the power and ground wires. If I need to remove the enclosure, I can disconnect the speaker wires and remote wire from the barrier strip and then pull the enclosure partially out. From there, I can disconnect the power and ground cables from the amp. 

If I fell like spending more money later, I may consider adding a distribution block under the seat for the power cables. It won't make a difference for the grounds, as they are in the hatch area and would need to be disconnected at the amp anyway. 

Quick question on coating the MDF baffles. Looks like there are quite a few options out there for both Rubberized Undercoating and Bed Liners available in a rattle can. (Rustoleum, Duplicolor, 3M, etc.) Anyone have a preference? I don't have a compressor or spray gun right now, so rattle can is my only option.


----------



## [email protected]

We use the duplicolor that is in a blue can.


----------



## papasin

HDPE?


----------



## [email protected]

Acrylic?


----------



## papasin

papasin said:


> HDPE?


HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) Sheet, Opaque Off-White, Standard Tolerance, ASTM D4976-245: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

(for the baffles)


----------



## REGULARCAB

papasin said:


> HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) Sheet, Opaque Off-White, Standard Tolerance, ASTM D4976-245: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> (for the baffles)


Oooh, better price than I found. Thanks for the link.


----------



## [email protected]

Keep in mind, you can't glue that stuff together. If you have to do more than one layer, it will need to be mechanically fastened.


----------



## Hoptologist

Cellar door was awesome, probably bests any venue we have here in Fresno. The dynamics in that place were superb too, very loud, but also very clean, so it never seemed too loud. You guys should have come


----------



## JayinMI

[email protected] said:


> Keep in mind, you can't glue that stuff together. If you have to do more than one layer, it will need to be mechanically fastened.


Yep...just like that guy from Musicar NW did. lol 

I get my HDPE from a guy on Ebay -- Acesany, at Cesany plastics...IIRC.
You can get it in small batched from 1/4" to 1.5" thick in various colors.

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

How difficult is it to cut as compared with ply and MDF? Can you use a router or it is it too high speed (melt!)? What about a basic jig saw...rough tooth and slow speed?

It would be nice to be able to use this stuff in doors instead of wood/mdf.


----------



## [email protected]

It is supposed to machine nicely. I don't remember melting issues, but it has been a while since I have used it.




captainobvious said:


> How difficult is it to cut as compared with ply and MDF? Can you use a router or it is it too high speed (melt!)? What about a basic jig saw...rough tooth and slow speed?
> 
> It would be nice to be able to use this stuff in doors instead of wood/mdf.


----------



## [email protected]

"That guy" is at our shop for a few days!!!




JayinMI said:


> Yep...just like that guy from Musicar NW did. lol
> 
> I get my HDPE from a guy on Ebay -- Acesany, at Cesany plastics...IIRC.
> You can get it in small batched from 1/4" to 1.5" thick in various colors.
> 
> Jay


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> We use the duplicolor that is in a blue can.


I ended up grabbing some of the Duplicolor Bed Armour. It is what my local Autozone had, and I only had about 5 min to find something and go. 









Three coats on the back and 4 coats on the front of the baffles. Even with the shop lights pointed right at them, they took a while to dry between coats. These should be going in tonight, along with the mids.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> HDPE?





[email protected] said:


> Acrylic?





papasin said:


> HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) Sheet, Opaque Off-White, Standard Tolerance, ASTM D4976-245: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> (for the baffles)


I had thought about HDPE, but I already had the MDF baffles cut. (I was going to go to a home goods store and try to find some 1/2" HDPE cutting boards.) I'll have to remember to check Amazon if I decide to swap out the MDF later. Seems like good pricing. 

We also have a really nice plastic fabrication shop that I know could build whatever I needed. Just not sure I would want to pay what they charge.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> Keep in mind, you can't glue that stuff together. If you have to do more than one layer, it will need to be mechanically fastened.


Good info. Glad I only need a single layer baffle.


----------



## rton20s

Hoptologist said:


> Cellar door was awesome, probably bests any venue we have here in Fresno. The dynamics in that place were superb too, very loud, but also very clean, so it never seemed too loud. You guys should have come


I was in Clovis, and then home spraying my baffles and helping with ice cream. Don't worry, no bed liner made it into the ice cream. 

I have never been to that venue. Walked by it countless times, and heard bands/performances from outside. I'll have to check it out some time. My wife's office is only half a block away, across the street.


----------



## rton20s

[email protected] said:


> "That guy" is at our shop for a few days!!!


Saw that on FB. Is he there helping you with your big project, or Bing with his?


----------



## rton20s

Well, after re-reading Don's recommendations on SDS for treating the car, I have decided against doing any deadening on the floor for now. Since I do not have the MLV or CCF that I would need, and the basic factory dampener is in decent shape, I am going to leave it be. That should speed up the process a bit. 

I will wrap up the rest of my install and then look at my time to see if there is enough left for getting some CLD on the hatch and rear doors. I would tear into the roof as well, but I just don't think I'll have enough CLD on hand.


----------



## jtaudioacc

rton20s said:


> Quick question on coating the MDF baffles. Looks like there are quite a few options out there for both Rubberized Undercoating and Bed Liners available in a rattle can. (Rustoleum, Duplicolor, 3M, etc.) Anyone have a preference? I don't have a compressor or spray gun right now, so rattle can is my only option.


don't bother, you'll move on to kick panels soon enough after listening to the buzzing of the door before the water can ever destroy the baffles. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> don't bother, you'll move on to kick panels soon enough after listening to the buzzing of the door before the water can ever destroy the baffles. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


I swear... between you and Richard. 

Well, come the 22nd, I'll be sticking with my mids in the doors for at least a season of MECA.  Besides, I use my dead pedal too much! I know you have grills, but how do you keep from putting a foot through your 8?


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I swear... between you and Richard.
> 
> Well, come the 22nd, I'll be sticking with my mids in the doors for at least a season of MECA.  Besides, I use my dead pedal too much! I know you have grills, but how do you keep from putting a foot through your 8?


Who, me?   :laugh:

Someone once said once you go floor, you will never go door.

Let me take it a step further, once you go dash, you will never go floor.

I think I have a possible solution. JT can shoehorn a 12 up front. Then, Dustin might have an opportunity for some kicks. Problem solved.   :laugh:

In all seriousness, about the dead pedal...that's what I said too at first. But at the end of the day, I'd rather have no rattles at moderate to high volumes than a dead pedal.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Or build them like mine, with a dead pedal built into the kick panel. It wasn't intentional, but it worked great.


----------



## rton20s

No kicks. No kicks. No kicks. No kicks. I'm a day and a half from having my installation listenable! 

Talk to me again at the end of the year.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> No kicks. No kicks. No kicks. No kicks. I'm a day and a half from having my installation listenable!
> 
> Talk to me again at the end of the year.


Q-Logic actually makes [made?] "Q-Forms" for the xB, but the footroom is already cramped enough, and the seating position is too high to make them workable :surprised:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Kicks aren't too bad, JT has L8SE'S in his xb kicks. Its ok, Dustin will eventually relent. Right about the same time he moves to a 3 way. It'll happen. I may even have my vacuum bagging equipment by then so he could play with composites.


----------



## diy.phil

Dustin, you know you can PRINT the kick panel pods too


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

On a serious note, the scope is out and ready, we'll be leaving sat morning, so just let me know.


----------



## jtaudioacc

door enclosures are also and option.


----------



## rton20s

And the Thrursday night update. Well, I guess technically, it is already Friday morning. 

I feel like I made some decent progress tonight. The baffles needed just a little touch up so I decided to go ahead and start reinstalling the interior. I was able to get everything back in, save for the head unit. I also cleaned up all the pieces as I put them in. I didn't have time to get to the deadening of the hatch or the foam around the tweeters. I should have enough time to get that done tomorrow. If I have time, I'll also perform my big 3 upgrade. I'll have to check my list on the morning to see if here is anything else I am forgetting. 

I do have birthday dinner for my dad though, so I won't have as much time as I usually do on Fridays. Priorities. 

In the pictures below, you'll see the installed baffles, the Illusion Audio C6 installed into the baffles and the doors all closed back up. I do plan on picking up some CCF and MLV down the line to finish off the doors. I'm fortunate in that the wife also has an xB, so I was able to do a quick knock test with the doors closed. The deadening in my car made a night and day difference.


----------



## rton20s

Oh, and Chris, I should definitely be texting you tomorrow about getting the gains set with the o-scope.


----------



## diy.phil

oooh nice progress!!!


----------



## rton20s

Thanks. I can't wait to get this thing complete enough to actually *hear* it this afternoon. 

Also... I edited my update from last night to show the photo of the C6 installed in the baffle rather than provide a link. Must have clicked the wrong button when creating the post. I guess two weeks straight of lack of sleep will do that to you.


----------



## diy.phil

Did you stay home today to install/update stuff ?


----------



## rton20s

No... but I'll be heading home in just a few minutes to dive back in. I'll probably try and get the gains set with Chris (TooStubborn) before I mess with the Big 3, hatch deadening and tweeter foaming.


----------



## rton20s

*IT'S ALIVE!!!*

Now the real work begins. 

A big thank you to Chris (TooStubborn2fail) for helping me out this afternoon by lending his O-scope, Omnimic, ears and skills. The gains are pretty well and the crossovers have a rough setting. I'll probably attempt a rough EQ and Time Alignment (based on bikinpunk's calculator). Hopefully I can get some ears on and recommendations tomorrow at the GTG. 

Also, the KS900.6 really surprised me, and I think Chris as well. The front channels bridged were putting out 277w @ only 12.2 volts! I guess that is a little better than their published 120w @ 14.4 volts.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, very rough settings. That amp surprised me. Like Dustin said, it did 277 clean watts, car off, per bridged front channels. We backed it down to about 200. I really wish we would have scoped the sub, the gain had to be maxed and the level on the hu turned up 3db to blend with the mids. Maybe next week or so we'll put the scope on it and see.


----------



## JayinMI

Yeah, the KS900.6 is no slouch. I've only done a couple, but they've both impressed me. In one car, we switched from an XDi805 to a KS900.6 and it was amazing. Great equipment choices!

Jay


----------



## rton20s

Well, I am completely wiped out. I was so tired after my dad's birthday dinner that I was falling asleep at their house. 

I didn't bother messing with the foam around the tweeter or deadener in the hatch. I made a couple quick attempts at basic time alignment. I first tried Erin's calculator and just wasn't happy with the results. Then I tried using the actual measured distance. Each of those had my center low and more centered in front of my seating position. 

I still have so much adjustment to make with EQ and crossovers, I decided to just let it be for now. At this point, I'll just wait and see what tomorrow brings.


----------



## bigguy

rton20s said:


> *IT'S ALIVE!!!*
> 
> Now the real work begins.
> 
> A big thank you to Chris (TooStubborn2fail) for helping me out this afternoon by lending his O-scope, Omnimic, ears and skills. The gains are pretty well and the crossovers have a rough setting. I'll probably attempt a rough EQ and Time Alignment (based on bikinpunk's calculator). Hopefully I can get some ears on and recommendations tomorrow at the GTG.
> 
> Also, the KS900.6 really surprised me, and I think Chris as well. The front channels bridged were putting out 277w @ only 12.2 volts! I guess that is a little better than their published 120w @ 14.4 volts.


That's good to know. Great work getting it playing in time.


----------



## subwoofery

However, I wish the KS900.6 was class G/H 

Kelvin


----------



## rton20s

Yeah. The class A/B is probably the one drawback on the KS900.6. That, and the relatively large footprint compared to the tiny class Ds that have been released recently. 

And I want to give a huge thank you to John (JT) and Richard (Papasin) for giving my car a listen and helping/advising me in getting my staging and tuning done! Chris, I'm sure I'll be hitting you up for some additional O-Scope and Omnimic sessions.


----------



## papasin

Copy and paste from what I said in the GTG thread below. Great job on the progress! 



papasin said:


> rton20s, glad to hear your vehicle playing music. I know I give you a hard time and it's really in good fun, but really great job in getting it to its current state. But in truth, it has just begun. Tune, tune, tune, re-examine, tune, tune, tune, re-examine. It is a vicious cycle. Having small kids in this hobby I completely understand and respect the balance one has to have.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks Richard. There will be plenty of seat time, tuning and tweaking between now and there 22nd. I'll probably start in on it as soon as I finish my dampening and tweeter foam. Oh yeah... And I need to read up on a couple things in the rule book as well.


----------



## BigRed

I am possibly going to be in Fresno I'd love to hear where u end up with the tune


----------



## Hoptologist

Did someone say Fresno? I'm always down for a little meet-up action, even if its only for an hour or so after work one night. No need to wait til the 22nd or the next official g2g 

I've been driving around listening to my all-seats preset for the past couple weeks, just because I've been having others with me lately, and man, having time-alignment turned off really sucks, lol. It's a completely different experience, and has had me tinkering with EQ non stop, since you pretty limited in what you can do at that point, right? Have you done any adjustments for a 2-seat preset, rton20s, or just the driver seat so far?


----------



## rton20s

BigRed said:


> I am possibly going to be in Fresno I'd love to hear where u end up with the tune


I'd love for you to get some seat time and give me some feedback. This will be my first time ever trying to tune a system. John and Richard were absolutely overwhelming me with information. . I certainly had some good examples to pull from on Saturday on what I need to be working toward. 



Hoptologist said:


> Did someone say Fresno? I'm always down for a little meet-up action, even if its only for an hour or so after work one night. No need to wait til the 22nd or the next official g2g
> 
> I've been driving around listening to my all-seats preset for the past couple weeks, just because I've been having others with me lately, and man, having time-alignment turned off really sucks, lol. It's a completely different experience, and has had me tinkering with EQ non stop, since you pretty limited in what you can do at that point, right? Have you done any adjustments for a 2-seat preset, rton20s, or just the driver seat so far?


I'm not sure when I'll have the car up in Fresno before the 22nd. If I do end up bringing it up there, I'll definitely let you know. Otherwise, make sure you swing by the MECA show. There should be no shortage of great cars to check out. Especially if you have been curious about Illusion Audio.


----------



## rton20s

Well, it can be kind of pointless if I only post the good stuff and not the bad. So... here goes...

I couldn't get my staging correct on Friday night, no matter what I did. I knew I was exhausted, so I headed to the GTG hoping that some of the more experienced DIYMA guys could help me out. JT spent a while in the car and even he was puzzled at some of the numbers he was having to use to try and get the image centered with the time alignment. Papasin took a listen and gave me some good critiques based on some specific tracks. 

Then on my drive home last night I got a sneaking suspicion that I might have had an issue with the install. Something I might have screwed up. So, I checked my suspicion tonight and sure enough, I had wired the left and right tweeters backward!!! Such a stupid mistake, but I blame exhaustion, and the fact that I didn't pre-label the wiring as I snaked it under the back seat from the amps. 

In under 45 minutes time I had the wiring corrected (so glad I put in the barrier terminal) and adjusted the time alignment as well as some very preliminary EQ adjustment. It is amazing just how much easier to adjust the time alignment when your tweeter isn't fighting against your mid! 

I ran through several IASCA and MECA disc tracks and was very happy with what I heard for such a short amount of time spent. To my ears, it was a huge improvement. It certainly isn't where it needs to be, but I actually have a center, width and depth now! (Richard, some of your comments about the tracks from the 2013 MECA disc really helped.) I know my face had to look a whole lot like this  when I got out of the car. 

At least now I have something to really build off of. I definitely still have some work ahead. I'm hoping I'll have some time tomorrow to start deadening my hatch. Running a few sweeps, the hatch is my main and obvious source of resonance. With the second most noticeable resonance from the notorious xB door locks.


----------



## jtaudioacc

rton20s said:


> With the second most noticeable resonance from the notorious xB door locks.












Just Sayin' :laugh:


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> Just Sayin' :laugh:


Maybe I'll go to kicks... next year. Maybe. Or when, you decide you're ready for 10s or 12s up front.  Any way those kicks you have now could fit a C8?


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Any way those kicks you have now could fit a C8?



Not without major modification to a C8. Jacob has been teasing me about mine also, and no way it's going to happen with the OD of the C8 being nearly 9". He did say maybe they can make a custom one off for me and turn it on a lathe.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I dont know, JT's kicks might fit a C8. The C8 is only 2.6mm larger in diameter, and 2.6mm larger in the mounting hole, than the L8SE's that are in there now.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Not without major modification to a C8. Jacob has been teasing me about mine also, and no way it's going to happen with the OD of the C8 being nearly 9". He did say maybe they can make a custom one off for me and turn it on a lathe.


I heard him mention that. I think you should do it. No reason no to have a complete Illusion system. 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I dont know, JT's kicks might fit a C8. The C8 is only 2.6mm larger in diameter, and 2.6mm larger in the mounting hole, than the L8SE's that are in there now.


This is true. And the C8 is also 16.4 mm shallower. Which means the kicks *might* be able to be shallower. Right now though, there is *ZERO* money for changes.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I heard him mention that. I think you should do it. No reason no to have a complete Illusion system.


Nope. Pretty happy with the setup.  

More importantly, it sounds the best it's ever been, and the previous setup was no slouch.


----------



## Golden Ear

Dustin, if you want a complete Illusion setup I'll sell you my C12 for relatively cheap


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Nope. Pretty happy with the setup.
> 
> More importantly, it sounds the best it's ever been, and the previous setup was no slouch.


Yeah. It did sound pretty good. Once you got in and pointed out how to actually turn on and control the system! 



Golden Ear said:


> Dustin, if you want a complete Illusion setup I'll sell you my C12 for relatively cheap


A standard C12 would probably be a move in the wrong direction. Though, it sure is a good looking driver. Now if it was a C12XL, we might be able to talk. Are you coming down to Fresno on the 22nd?


----------



## Golden Ear

I have to disagree about it being a move in the wrong direction. IMHO the c12 is the next best thing to the c12xl. Not only does it sound beautiful but it has plenty of output. And I'm not just saying these things because I offered to sell it to you

Yeah I'll be there on the 22nd. It'll be my first comp as well. Can't wait!


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> I have to disagree about it being a move in the wrong direction. IMHO the c12 is the next best thing to the c12xl. Not only does it sound beautiful but it has plenty of output. And I'm not just saying these things because I offered to sell it to you


Yeah, I heard the C12 up at SIS. It is definitely an impressive driver. I can't help but think it would be a lateral move at best from a Black 12. And besides, I would force my self to competely redo my enclosure to compere in stock if I switched to a shallow sub. 



Golden Ear said:


> Yeah I'll be there on the 22nd. It'll be my first comp as well. Can't wait!


Nice. What class will you be in?


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Yeah, I heard the C12 up at SIS. It is definitely an impressive driver. I can't help but think it would be a lateral move at best from a Black 12. And besides, I would force my self to competely redo my enclosure to compere in stock if I switched to a shallow sub.


Do it! 



rton20s said:


> Nice. What class will you be in?


I will post up a team roster for MECA later today.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Do it!


Right after you shoehorn the custom lathed C8s in your kicks. 



papasin said:


> I will post up a team roster for MECA later today.


Nice.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Right after you shoehorn the custom lathed C8s in your kicks.


Be careful in what you ask for...because you might not be able to keep your end of the bargain.


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> Be careful in what you ask for...because you might not be able to keep your end of the bargain.


Lol!

I think I'll be in modified or modex. Richard can tell us cuz I can't remember the difference.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've seriously been considering entering the kia as is just for the heck of it. Then comparing the results and comments as I upgrade.


----------



## papasin

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've seriously been considering entering the kia as is just for the heck of it. Then comparing the results and comments as I upgrade.


Go for it! 

But as you upgrade, you'd obviously have to be reclassified based on those upgrades...and depending on what you do, it will determine what class you fall under. I think it's a bit of misnomer though...but you can upgrade and still fall under the "stock" class still. Just depends on certain criteria.

But as JOey, stereo_luvr, and quite a few others have said, build the car with how you want it, and let the classification judge determine where it belongs. Build it for you (or your wife) with the whatever goals you decide upon (i.e. budget, best SQ in mind, SPL, etc.).


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^absolutely agreed. Ill build it how we want, and compete it wherever it falls. Its more about feedback for me than anything.


----------



## Golden Ear

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've seriously been considering entering the kia as is just for the heck of it. Then comparing the results and comments as I upgrade.


DOOO EEEET!!!


----------



## rton20s

I think we're all in agreement. Chris you need to bring the Kia up on the 22nd! It will be interesting to see how it scores compared to the AI Kia that competed last year in completely stock form.


----------



## BigRed

Golden Ear said:


> Lol!
> 
> I think I'll be in modified or modex. Richard can tell us cuz I can't remember the difference.


the trophy is the same size


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I think we're all in agreement. Chris you need to bring the Kia up on the 22nd! It will be interesting to see how it scores compared to the AI Kia that competed last year in completely stock form.



And if that AI Kia is still in stock form, how it would compete head to head. 

Here's a tip, talk to Bret (PPI-Art-Collector), the only undefeated stock competitor I have met. He has competed a bone stock Honda Fit, and a bone stock Honda Odyssey and got 1st both times. Granted the former was uncompeted, but the latter had competition! IIRC, he won by like a tenth the second time lol. Seems like Bret is an expert with the fader, balance, bass and treble knobs.


----------



## papasin

BigRed said:


> the trophy is the same size



Good point. Golden Ear, just move up to Extreme and upgrade those dash pods.


----------



## rton20s

The AI Kia took first place in stock at the comp, but I believe it was uncontested as well. 

A win, is a win... right?


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> Good point. Golden Ear, just move up to Extreme and upgrade those dash pods.


That's the plan for next season


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> A win, is a win... right?


I suppose. Really depends on what your goals are. I personally enjoy competition when there are actually others in my class. The past couple years, including the last couple state finals I've competed in, I was always in the most competed class. For me, I think that is what pushes me to try to improve (whether it be the install or tune). I still vividly remember the first competition I ever entered, and I placed 3rd out of 5 cars (within a couple points of the top 2). But even then, my score was high enough to even beat the first place car that was in the class above mine (same judge). So while it's good to win, to me, it's more important to see how I can improve against my peers. Winning a trophy in an uncompeted class doesn't do it for me. For those that think the trophy is what matters, I think it might be easier to just go buy one if that is what they think is important. :shrug:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thats why I always raced a class above when I raced motocross^. Its what drove me to improve.


----------



## rton20s

Just a quick update. I got some deadening on the hatch done. It did seem to improve the rattles, but there is still some noise back there. I'll probably order up some denim insulation to stuff in the hatch as well as behind the rear quarter inner panels. I've also got some of the open cell foam cut for behind he tweeters. That will go in tomorrow morning before I start messing with the tuning.


----------



## rton20s

I got the foam in behind the tweeters and got them aimed back a little more into the cabin instead of straight up at the windshield. Sorry no pics yet. 

I ran the AutoTA/EQ feature yesterday after not having too much luck on my own on Saturday. I have to say, I am pretty pleased with the results. Though, I did need to tweak the subwoofer level. Chris ought to get a kick out of the fact that Pioneer felt it necessary to set the sub at -7 when we had initially set it at +3 in order to get it to blend! It is currently sitting at 0. 

I'm not sure what the EQ settings are. Can you actually see what the AutoEQ has done to the curve on the DEH-80PRS? I did see that the time alignment numbers were different than what I had set, but this isn't too surprising given the new EQ settings. 

The HPF on the tweeter and LPF on the mids are exactly the same as where I had set them manually (2.5K @ 24 dB for both). The HPF on the mid was changed from 80 Hz @ 24 dB to 100 Hz @ 12 dB and the LPF on the sub was changed from 80 Hz @ 24 dB to 63 Hz @ 12 dB. This did seem to bring out the mid range a bit more, but I have a lot more listening to do. 

I still have some rattles coming from the rear hatch area. I will be adding some CCF to the back of the license plate to try and help there. I also found some Black Hole Stuff... I mean Ultratouch denim insulation at the local Lowe's.  It is quite a large quantity, certainly more than I will need, for about $50. I'll probably be picking some up to stuff the hatch door and rear quarter panels this week. Chris, you need any?

I also had the chance to give a few demos yesterday to family who had been eager to hear/see what I had been up to. I kept the demos short, using mostly the Orlando GTG CD. Dire Straits' "Money for Nothing" seemed like a good choice, since it was a track most everyone would be familiar with. I will qualify this with the fact that none of these people would ever consider or call themselves "audiophiles," but all of their responses were really positive. They all seemed quite surprised at the clarity and the shear volume I could achieve while maintaining the clarity. (I'm still my own worst critic and see a lot of room for improvement. Well, maybe other than Richard.  )

And just so they got to see a bit of what the Arc Black 12 was capable of, I made sure to let everybody get a listen to Bass Nectars' "Bass Head." I don't think a single person could contain their grin, which made me happy. I was doing demos with the volume set between 30 and 36 out of 62. With some tracks 36 was certainly loud enough to make some tracks feel right on the border of uncomfortable. 

I think the best reactions came from my father in law and sister in law. After the demo he said, "I need to get that in the Ford!" Referring to his '93 F-250 work truck. The sister in law actually had a little jump when the drums came in on Money for Nothing, which made me chuckle. When it was all said and done though, she was asking what we might be able to do for her '99 Tahoe.


----------



## diy.phil

ooooh look what you've done - now you have more projects!!!


----------



## damonryoung

Will you be ready for Saturday??


----------



## papasin

Nice work Dustin!


----------



## rton20s

diy.phil said:


> ooooh look what you've done - now you have more projects!!!


Ahh... but with my sister in law, I can take on the role of the supervisor and delegate all of the hard work to my brother in law. 



DRTHJTA said:


> Will you be ready for Saturday??


I'll be ready for Saturday no matter what. I would have no problem entering the car "as is." There is always more we can do though, right? And work done between now and then should have minimal impact on the installation. 



papasin said:


> Nice work Dustin!


Thanks Richard. I'd love to get as many "ears on" as possible on Saturday. You, Linda, Jim, whoever is there. Even if there is no tuning done, I'd love more feeback, recommendations, and tips! 

Some of the family has also expressed some interest in coming by to check out the event. Depending on the wife's ice cream delivery schedule, she plans to come up as well.


----------



## rton20s

No work done tonight, but if did pick up the denim insulation. I think I probably got enough to take care of the hatch and the rear quarters. . If anyone is going to be in Fresno next weekend and needs some, just let me know. 









I also shot this really quick video comparing a stock door to my partially treated door. It is kind of nice having two almost identical cars to A/B compare. The sound isn't the best, since it was just shot in my phone, but you can definitely hear a difference. 
First Generation xB CLD Comparison - YouTube


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, I look at that package every time I go in there, just hadn't picked any up yet. We could always test the effectiveness of stuffing enclosures with it lol.


----------



## rton20s

I think I might have a bit to spare.  Just let me know how much you need for your test enclosure. 

I was shocked that the wife didn't say a single word about it when she walked out into the garage and saw how large a package it was.


----------



## rton20s

Just a quick update from last night. The hatch got stuffed with a little over 3 cubic feet of denim insulation. I also added some CCF to the back of the license plate. In combination with the previously applied CLD, the difference from stock is significant. I haven't had much driving time with the car yet (wife has it right now), but I plan to check the difference with some bass drops this afternoon.  

I'm hoping to get over to TooStubborn2Fail's place this afternoon to get another pair of ears on and see what he thinks. There will likely be some more tweaking tonight in preparation for my first ever competition tomorrow in Fresno. 

Just one pic of the stuffed hatch. The aging struts have just enough strength to hold up the hatch once opened. It does take a bit more effort to lift the hatch into place, as well.


----------



## rton20s

One more note on working with the denim insulation...

While it might be safer to work with your bare hands than fiberglass insulation, I did use some nitrile gloves while I was installing. I should have been wearing a mask. If you plan to do more than just stuff an enclosure with this material, wear a mask. I definitely inhaled some of the fibers, and it really isn't pretty when you're blowing out of your nose of hocking it up later. 

The easiest way to cut pieces down to size is also just pulling it apart by hand. I initially tried a utility knife and also some scissors, but it was way more trouble than it was worth. Just grab the size piece you need and pull.


----------



## Hoptologist

How late will you stay in Fresno tomorrow? I'm trying to figure out a good time since I have to be other places too. Plus I'm meeting a member at LT to sell my IDMAX.

I need to update my build log soon, everything is hooked up and playing and it's rattle city. It's going to be a long expensive road to hunt everything down, will definitely need to deaden the roof. I'm hoping to be able to play with sub settings tonight so it sounds better if anyone wants to listen to it tomorrow. Right now it's LPF is at 100hz with a 12db slope... which is too shallow and muddy sounding near the top end, going to do 80hz @ 24db slope which should sound much cleaner.


----------



## rton20s

I plan on being there all day, and if people plan to stick around to grab dinner I'll probably stay for that, too. 

I had my LPF set at 80 Hz @ 24 dB when I initially set it. My DEH-80PRS felt it was better set at 63Hz @ 12 dB, which so far I seem to like a bit more with my single Black 12 in the hatch. 

What I really need though is more ears on and feedback. I've messed with the tuning a bunch myself, but my right ear has been plugged on and off for the past week+. And I'm also really green on the tuning side of things to begin with.


----------



## Hoptologist

rton20s said:


> I plan on being there all day, and if people plan to stick around to grab dinner I'll probably stay for that, too.
> 
> I had my LPF set at 80 Hz @ 24 dB when I initially set it. My DEH-80PRS felt it was better set at 63Hz @ 12 dB, which so far I seem to like a bit more with my single Black 12 in the hatch.
> 
> What I really need though is more ears on and feedback. I've messed with the tuning a bunch myself, but my right ear has been plugged on and off for the past week+. And I'm also really green on the tuning side of things to begin with.


Sounds good, if I can't find you I'll just start calling out your name, lol.

I wish there was an online slope generator that would let me see the two slopes next to each other, but I guess I could use Excel. I tried drawing a quick graph and it seems like 80hz @ 24db would be louder until about 100hz or so, at which point the 63hz @ 12db slope would stay louder, unless my doodle was real off. I'll try to play with these 2 options later and see how they blend and such.


----------



## rton20s

We share the good with the bad, right? 

So Friday afternoon I went by TooStubborn's place and we spent some time with his mic adjusting the EQ a bit to get the curve smoothed out. It was instantly revealed to me just how limited the DEH-80PRS really is. Not to say it isn't an excellent budget choice for going active, because it really is. But in that moment, it would have been nice to have a bit more control. 

So the EQ was set, we had a short listening session and I called it a day. The next morning, Saturday, was my first ever MECA competition up in Fresno. Because of the fact that I would be going up against cars with much more powerful processors in Street, I had already resigned myself to last place. 

I was fortunate to get some ears on before it was my turn in the lane. Big Red even gave me a few minutes out of his busy schedule and tuning his own truck to help me make some adjustments. The first words out of his mouth should have been more revealing. "Something just isn't right." He spent some time with me and we adjusted levels between the left and right mid and the time alignment of the right mid and tweeter. It was short, but it definitely helped. 

After judging was completed, I got a bit more ears on time with some additional DIYMA and WCA members. Again, something wasn't quite right. Papasin had a couple of comments for me and that got me to take a look at the EQ after the demo. So I look at Custom 1, completely flat! Oh no. Custom 2, completely flat! When I had done the EQ adjustments the night before I was adjusting Custom 1 (source dependent) using the AUX input.  That means the car went through the lane with a flat EQ! 

I got out of the car and let those around me know exactly what I had done. It was q bit embarrassing, and I took quite a bit of ribbing for my rookie mistake. Especially from Brian Mitchell. Deservedly so. A little Pro Tip for everyone out there... READ THE MANUAL!

At the end of the day, when the results were announced, I thought I had scored a 63 and placed fourth (last) by 1/2 a point. As mentioned previously, I had a feeling this is where I would end up but I'd really hoped to do better. After discovering my tuning mistake, *I KNEW* this is where I would end up. 

(I matched my Custom 2 EQ (all sources) to my AUX Custom 1 EQ on my drive home.) 

Yesterday, while studying the score sheet, I decided to tally up my points for myself. I thought I saw an error, so I checked 4 times myself and then had my wife check 3 times. Sure enough, there was a mathematical error in my scoring! My score of 63 was in fact a 65.75. If all of the other scores were correct, that puts me into at least third place (not sure what second place's score was and first place was 76+). 

I have emailed the promoter (Kimo) and requested that he re-check the math on all scores in my class. I want to make sure that everyone has the appropriate score and we are ranked correctly. 

And lastly, I want to give a huge public thank you for all of those that helped me get the car up, running and listenable for the competition (even if it wasn't at it's best  ). Bing and JOey at SIS for the equipment, encouragement, advice and assistance on the build. TooStubborn2Fail for being my local sounding board and offering up his time, equipment and help in tuning the car. JT for offering unique insight on the xB and advice and help on getting the system sounding better. And all of the guys (and gal) in Team WCA for encouraging me, lending your ears, and offering up advice and tuning help when I really needed it!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Thats a really cool write up on your first expierience showing your ride. Congrats for getting out there and doing it! Also wanted to say I commend you on your "manin up" on a mistake made during tunning, It's how you learn. You will not make that mistake again.. Those are the ones I learn from the best, my mistakes that really suck.


----------



## captainobvious

Don't sweat the small stuff, it happens to all of us at some point. In my first competition 2 years ago, I brought my car down fresh off of getting things installed and came in (I believe) 3rd in my class. I realized after the fact that I had a midbass wired out of phase and it was causing all sorts of issues. 
To be honest, I love the competitions just to get people and judges in my car to help me with bettering my system for my own use. It's tough to get solid critical feedback like that anywhere else.
Im glad to hear you had a fun time at your first competition and that the guys (and gal) were kind enough to welcome you and help you out.

As for the scoring issue, it's happened to me too. In my case, I had won a first place trophy in both Meca and IASCA at a show in my class, but after reviewing my scoresheets later, I found that my total score should have been a tick lower in Meca. I spoke up as well and I believe that pushed me to 2nd place. Fair is fair, and it's just the right thing to do.

-Steve


----------



## rton20s

Thanks guys. I just want to make sure if other people are seeing my build and wanting to do the something similar with their own vehicle, they understand it isn't all sunshine and lollipops.  

When the work with The saw, router, drill, glue and roller are done there is still a whole lot of difficult work to do! Fortunately, I have received a lot of help and encouragement from DIYMA members, and especially the folks on Team WCA. I plan to take the Judges notes and other comments I received from giving demos to do my best to improve the system.


----------



## papasin

^ this right here is why I also put up a build thread. There are some who compete who choose not to for one reason or another. For me, it's about the journey and sharing, and if there's someone out there who can learn from what we have gone through, then it's giving back to a community that's given a lot to me in the first place. Anyway, I know you think I give you a hard time (and sometimes I certainly do), but like we discussed when I was listening to your car after you got judged, I think now you do have a good platform, and lots of opportunity to evolve. I look forward to the progression.


----------



## rton20s

Don't feel too bad about giving me a hard time. Sometimes it is just what we need. Without the poking and prodding of this community, there is no way I would have even gotten the system installed. I just don't need to hear that I need a C12XL every time I see you. I already know that. 

Beyond the tuning, I really need to get to work on my "beauty" panels for the hatch. Having an exposed MDF enclosure just isn't going to cut it! And with the templates that JOey made me, I really have no excuse.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Don't feel too bad about giving me a hard time. Sometimes it is just what we need. Without the poking and prodding of this community, there is no way I would have even gotten the system installed. I just don't need to hear that I need a C12XL every time I see you. I already know that.
> 
> Beyond the tuning, I really need to get to work on my "beauty" panels for the hatch. Having an exposed MDF enclosure just isn't going to cut it! And with the templates that JOey made me, I really have no excuse.


Before the C12XL, 3s in the dash, moving the tweeters to the sails, and a processor would be what I would suggest for the class you're in...but I think you also already know that.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Before the C12XL, 3s in the dash, moving the tweeters to the sails, and a processor would be what I would suggest for the class you're in...but I think you also already know that.


But no one (and by that I mean Illusion Audio) makes a 3" mid-range! Weren't there pics posted at some point? I thought I remembered seeing them here on DIYMA? 

And a processor... that one might take a bit. Probably no equipment changes before the end of the season.


----------



## JayinMI

rton20s said:


> But no one (and by that I mean Illusion Audio) makes a 3" mid-range! Weren't there pics posted at some point? I thought I remembered seeing them here on DIYMA?
> 
> And a processor... that one might take a bit. Probably no equipment changes before the end of the season.


So go up to a point-source 4". I'm pretty sure I've seen another xB with 5" in the dash, lol

Are you specifically looking for a mid-only vs. coax or widebander?

Jay


----------



## rton20s

JayinMI said:


> So go up to a point-source 4". I'm pretty sure I've seen another xB with 5" in the dash, lol
> 
> Are you specifically looking for a mid-only vs. coax or widebander?
> 
> Jay


Right now I am sticking with a simple 6.5" component system. I have considered making the move to either the point source or a 3-way setup in the future. Right now, I just want to get what I have sounding it's best. 

Papasin's suggestion of the 3" in the dash should enable me to stay in the same Street Class for competition. The xB uses a very large format "tweeter" in the dash. Depending on where you look, it is called out as everything from a 1.5" to a 3". I tend to agree with the 3" assessment.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> But no one (and by that I mean Illusion Audio) makes a 3" mid-range! Weren't there pics posted at some point? I thought I remembered seeing them here on DIYMA?
> 
> And a processor... that one might take a bit. Probably no equipment changes before the end of the season.


Pics as requested...



















But as for 3s, you know which ones I used to run. Did you get a chance to hear Golden Ear's truck? If so, what did you think?


----------



## papasin

Some additional pics I found...


----------



## Hoptologist

They look real nice, I'm considering these, wish we knew of a timeframe. I heard Golden Ear's truck and I loved his widebands.


----------



## rton20s

Nice find Papasin. Thanks. Good thing I'm not ready to go three way right now, or Jacob would be getting sick of hearing from me.  (I'm sure there are plenty of other bugging him and the rest of the Orca crew already.) 

I heard your old 3s in Golden Ear's truck this weekend as well as in your car up at SiS. Harder to recall them in your installation, of course. I did like them, but when we played Bass Nectar's Basshead (I know, real SQ stuff) in Golden Ear's truck I did notice some breakup. This was during one of the long, rising tone sweeps. I'm not sure if it was caused by the 3s, the source or maybe even the amps. Who knows. 

Maybe Golden Ear can comment on that. It is his system after all.  And who knows, it could have been a fluke, just during that song on that occasion.


----------



## Golden Ear

rton20s said:


> Nice find Papasin. Thanks. Good thing I'm not ready to go three way right now, or Jacob would be getting sick of hearing from me.  (I'm sure there are plenty of other bugging him and the rest of the Orca crew already.)
> 
> I heard your old 3s in Golden Ear's truck this weekend as well as in your car up at SiS. Harder to recall them in your installation, of course. I did like them, but when we played Bass Nectar's Basshead (I know, real SQ stuff) in Golden Ear's truck I did notice some breakup. This was during one of the long, rising tone sweeps. I'm not sure if it was caused by the 3s, the source or maybe even the amps. Who knows.
> 
> Maybe Golden Ear can comment on that. It is his system after all.  And who knows, it could have been a fluke, just during that song on that occasion.




I just played the song on my phone off of the iTunes Store plugged into the USB port 1 and it sounded really good. I'm not sure how we listened to it on Saturday but it must have been a fluke. I'll demo for you again next time is see you.


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> I just played the song on my phone off of the iTunes Store plugged into the USB port 1 and it sounded really good. I'm not sure how we listened to it on Saturday but it must have been a fluke. I'll demo for you again next time is see you.


Works for me. It was off of the burned disc I got at the SiS event. I'll listen to it again in my car and living room systems to make sure it wasn't something on the disc. We should be seeing each other soon enough at one of the comps. Unless the wife decides we're in need of another Monterey/PG trip sooner.


----------



## Golden Ear

Come on out!


----------



## papasin

Golden Ear said:


> Come on out!


Mini-meet?


----------



## rton20s

Ha. We're so busy with ice cream right now, I'm not sure when we'll find a weekend to get away. In fact, I have to get some t-shirt design work finished tonight and an email off to our printer for an event we have in a couple weeks. 

Not to mention the fact, that I have already been filling lots of open weekend slots with comps and get togethers.


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> Mini-meet?


Let's do it!


----------



## Black Rain

rton20s said:


> No work done tonight, but if did pick up the denim insulation. I think I probably got enough to take care of the hatch and the rear quarters. . If anyone is going to be in Fresno next weekend and needs some, just let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also shot this really quick video comparing a stock door to my partially treated door. It is kind of nice having two almost identical cars to A/B compare. The sound isn't the best, since it was just shot in my phone, but you can definitely hear a difference.
> First Generation xB CLD Comparison - YouTube


I likes the fact that there are people trying to use different items to deaden their does. How do you have them attached in the does and panels? Being that doors always seem to get some type of water in them, how do they work against that?


----------



## rton20s

I'm only putting the denim insulation in the rear hatch. It is just stuffed in with a friction fit. I am in Central California and we get very little rain. We haven't had any rain since I installed the insulation either. The first time it rains, I will pull the car in the garage and pull off the hatch cover to see if I have any issues. 

I do not see myself stuffing any other doors with this material. Most likely, just behind some interior plastic panels and in the subwoofer enclosure.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, not much rain here. In fact, next week we'll be banned from watering our lawns aside from on monday.


----------



## Black Rain

rton20s said:


> I'm only putting the denim insulation in the rear hatch. It is just stuffed in with a friction fit. I am in Central California and we get very little rain. We haven't had any rain since I installed the insulation either. The first time it rains, I will pull the car in the garage and pull off the hatch cover to see if I have any issues.
> 
> I do not see myself stuffing any other doors with this material. Most likely, just behind some interior plastic panels and in the subwoofer enclosure.


Cool...I'd just like to know, it seems optional. How good does it work in the sub box?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Stay tuned, we'll be testing that.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Stay tuned, we'll be testing that.


For sure. I might have a bit to spare.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Right now I am sticking with a simple 6.5" component system. I have considered making the move to either the point source or a 3-way setup in the future. Right now, I just want to get what I have sounding it's best.
> 
> Papasin's suggestion of the 3" in the dash should enable me to stay in the same Street Class for competition. The xB uses a very large format "tweeter" in the dash. Depending on where you look, it is called out as everything from a 1.5" to a 3". I tend to agree with the 3" assessment.


I picked up a pair of those Dayton RS100-8s. They're marketed as 4" drivers, but in reality, are actually 3" drivers. They're a bit smaller than my Boston 4.4LF mids, so they're going to be easier to get installed in one way or another


----------



## rton20s

I spent a couple hours at TooStubborn2Fail's place on Saturday where he helped me start over, essentially from scratch. We had previously set the mids' gain level with the oscilloscope and balanced the subwoofer and tweeters by ear. The gains just seemed a bit too high for my liking (sub was nearly max), and after hearing a few other cars are the MECA show I decided they were probably a bit "hot." 

This time we set the gains by ear, starting with the mids. We brought the gains up just enough to get some impact. Right now they are between 1/8 and 1/4 turn. The tweeters are all the way down and the subwoofer is at about half. This seemed to level match pretty well. 

Oh, we also stuffed my enclosure with denim insulation, probably between 1/3 and 1/2 the volume. We ran sweeps before and after. I'm not sure if Chris saved the results or not. The difference in response was negligible. The curves were nearly identical. However, there was some difference in the waterfall plots. The stuffed enclosure did seem to drop off a bit quicker than the non-stuffed enclosure. Did I hear a difference? Not that I can tell. That being said, the stuffing stays as I am not pulling the subwoofer out again unless I have to. 

After setting gains, we moved on to trying to work on my staging. We used the L/R EQ, phase and time alignment (starting with actual meaurements) to make the adjustments. Swapping seats and changing tracks at least a dozen times, we finally got to a point where it had decent left to right staging. There certainly needs to be some more time spent here. I still need to get the height up, as well as trying to get the subwoofer to stay forward. Initial impact from the sub is actually pretty good, but I think vibration/rattles/resonance are pulling the stage back on the bottom end. 

When this was done, we moved on to running some sweeps and looking at the response plot to make some EQ adjustments. Again, the limitations of the DEH-80PRS were pretty apparent here. We did our best adding a dB or two here and subtracting a dB there to try and smooth out the response. You can see our final response plot below. There is definitely room for improvement, and I realize that the rise on the bass end looks HUGE. Hopefully Chris can chime in on this, but it doesn't seem nearly as loud as it look. A quick subwoofer level adjustment should easily bring that back in line. I also really hope to find some time for BigRed to get some hands on again. 










I have done some listening since, as well as overlaid some common "target curves" to see where it stands. For the most part, (outside of the unaddressable anomalies and bass bump) it actually "looks" pretty good. I do think I am going to attempt the following EQ adjustments and see how it sounds...

5k +2dB
12.5k +3dB 
20k +2 dB

I may also change my LPF setting on the subwoofer from 63 Hz @ 12 dB/octave to 80 Hz @ 12 dB/octave. I'd like to see if it will address that dip around 80 Hz and help smooth out the transition from subwoofer to mids.


----------



## rton20s

Well, I made the EQ adjustments during my drive to and from home at lunch. The bump in EQ at 5 kHz seemed to have the most impact. I do think I like the sound better, though I only got to spend a couple of minutes listening to it on a couple of songs. 

I also did a double check, and my tweeter level is currently at -1 dB. I'll probably bring that back up to zero and readjust the EQ settings to match. I have more bumps than cuts, so I might as well bring the level up and keep my EQ adjustments closer to zero. 

I also switched from the 63 Hz crossover on the sub to 80 Hz. This also made a noticeable difference. I prefer the new, higher crossover point as it seems to have restored a but of the missing mid-bass impact. I guess that dip was even more noticeable than I thought. 

I would be interested to see how all of these changes affect the response plot. I also plan to spend some more time doing critical listening to see how it affected my staging and see what new adjustments I need to make there.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

We definitely need to play with it more, especially the sub to midbass transition. I'm going to investigate the idea we talked about with the mic, but we do need to bring the sub level down a little more too.


----------



## Golden Ear

I'm surprised stuffing the box had no effect.


----------



## quality_sound

Be careful with 5K. It'll sound nice but may lead to fatigue if you bump it up too much. Is the 200Hz dip a phase issue? If not, then a bump here will help impact.


----------



## [email protected]

How do you get to have the different saved files at the bottom? Mine only shows 1?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected]

Duh.. When I closed the rta window the answer became apparent.. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## plcrides

i had a 2005 scion xb and everything i put in that damn car didn't sound right,i sound deadened the whole thing,the roof with mdf cut outs and blocks anything to change the frequency,the subs never did hit right,11 different enclosures 3 sets of kicks i traded it in thankfully and got a subaru hatchback and thank god everything I've installed sounds so good.i needed that,i worked my butt off on the xb for 6 yrs,so if you can make yours sound good,my hats off to ya,your a true audiophile for sure.it just has too high of a frequency range for me,i like bass that you can feel just shaking you and moving you,nope haha couldn't find it.but you have some nice stuff though.take care man.


----------



## jtaudioacc

plcrides said:


> i had a 2005 scion xb and everything i put in that damn car didn't sound right,i sound deadened the whole thing,the roof with mdf cut outs and blocks anything to change the frequency,the subs never did hit right,11 different enclosures 3 sets of kicks i traded it in thankfully and got a subaru hatchback and thank god everything I've installed sounds so good.i needed that,i worked my butt off on the xb for 6 yrs,so if you can make yours sound good,my hats off to ya,your a true audiophile for sure.it just has too high of a frequency range for me,i like bass that you can feel just shaking you and moving you,nope haha couldn't find it.but you have some nice stuff though.take care man.


definitely the scion isn't the problem, i know that for sure.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> We definitely need to play with it more, especially the sub to midbass transition. I'm going to investigate the idea we talked about with the mic, but we do need to bring the sub level down a little more too.


I've played with the subwoofer level quite a bit. There is definitely a need for heavier bass in the tuning while driving. 



Golden Ear said:


> I'm surprised stuffing the box had no effect.


I was as well. I will say, we didn't do any fluffing of the denim insulation when we stuffed it. The bottom and sides of the enclosure were pretty much completely covered. 



quality_sound said:


> Be careful with 5K. It'll sound nice but may lead to fatigue if you bump it up too much. Is the 200Hz dip a phase issue? If not, then a bump here will help impact.


I definitely need some extended listening sessions now to see how it really sounds. 5 minutes here and 10 minutes there while driving isn't going to cut it. I'm not sure if 200 Hz is a phase issue or not. We didn't really do any sweeps testing phase. Phase was really only tested by ear. I'll have to check the current EQ settings to see if I even have anymore headroom at 200 Hz. It might mean having to play with driver levels again.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

200hz and 400hz were areas we couldn't fix. They were high q holes, likely due to speaker location or other room effects. We actually tried raising 200hz and lowered 315hz to smooth it out in that area. I think I can post the un-eq'd response later.

I completely forgot about how much bass is drowned out while driving in it. You'll likely need a daily tune, and a parked tune.


----------



## Golden Ear

Is it possible to have different preset tunes with the 80prs? I use one but don't use the tuning features.


----------



## BigRed

rton20s said:


> I spent a couple hours at TooStubborn2Fail's place on Saturday where he helped me start over, essentially from scratch. We had previously set the mids' gain level with the oscilloscope and balanced the subwoofer and tweeters by ear. The gains just seemed a bit too high for my liking (sub was nearly max), and after hearing a few other cars are the MECA show I decided they were probably a bit "hot."
> 
> This time we set the gains by ear, starting with the mids. We brought the gains up just enough to get some impact. Right now they are between 1/8 and 1/4 turn. The tweeters are all the way down and the subwoofer is at about half. This seemed to level match pretty well.
> 
> Oh, we also stuffed my enclosure with denim insulation, probably between 1/3 and 1/2 the volume. We ran sweeps before and after. I'm not sure if Chris saved the results or not. The difference in response was negligible. The curves were nearly identical. However, there was some difference in the waterfall plots. The stuffed enclosure did seem to drop off a bit quicker than the non-stuffed enclosure. Did I hear a difference? Not that I can tell. That being said, the stuffing stays as I am not pulling the subwoofer out again unless I have to.
> 
> After setting gains, we moved on to trying to work on my staging. We used the L/R EQ, phase and time alignment (starting with actual meaurements) to make the adjustments. Swapping seats and changing tracks at least a dozen times, we finally got to a point where it had decent left to right staging. There certainly needs to be some more time spent here. I still need to get the height up, as well as trying to get the subwoofer to stay forward. Initial impact from the sub is actually pretty good, but I think vibration/rattles/resonance are pulling the stage back on the bottom end.
> 
> When this was done, we moved on to running some sweeps and looking at the response plot to make some EQ adjustments. Again, the limitations of the DEH-80PRS were pretty apparent here. We did our best adding a dB or two here and subtracting a dB there to try and smooth out the response. You can see our final response plot below. There is definitely room for improvement, and I realize that the rise on the bass end looks HUGE. Hopefully Chris can chime in on this, but it doesn't seem nearly as loud as it look. A quick subwoofer level adjustment should easily bring that back in line. I also really hope to find some time for BigRed to get some hands on again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have done some listening since, as well as overlaid some common "target curves" to see where it stands. For the most part, (outside of the unaddressable anomalies and bass bump) it actually "looks" pretty good. I do think I am going to attempt the following EQ adjustments and see how it sounds...
> 
> 5k +2dB
> 12.5k +3dB
> 20k +2 dB
> 
> I may also change my LPF setting on the subwoofer from 63 Hz @ 12 dB/octave to 80 Hz @ 12 dB/octave. I'd like to see if it will address that dip around 80 Hz and help smooth out the transition from subwoofer to mids.


I would use a 5db swing on the left side when measuring. That's just me


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> Is it possible to have different preset tunes with the 80prs? I use one but don't use the tuning features.


Not an entire tune, but you can have multiple Preset EQs. There are Custom 1 and Custom 2 selectable EQ options. Custom 2 is an EQ that applies to all sources when selected. When you select Custom 1, it is source dependent. So I can save a "default" EQ in Custom 2, and then a different EQ on Custom 1, if say I wanted more bass output or something. You just have to make sure to set up a Custom 1 EQ for each source. 



BigRed said:


> I would use a 5db swing on the left side when measuring. That's just me


I'm still pretty green with all of the measuring stuff, and Chris has taken the lead since he has more experience and the equipment. (I do have AudioTools and an IMM-6 for my iPhone.) Can you explain what you mean by a 5 dB swing on the left side?


----------



## james2266

rton20s said:


> I'm still pretty green with all of the measuring stuff, and Chris has taken the lead since he has more experience and the equipment. (I do have AudioTools and an IMM-6 for my iPhone.) Can you explain what you mean by a 5 dB swing on the left side?


I think I understand what he means but I am curious if it is truly what I am thinking or not. HRTF? I think I have that theory down but it is still a little fuzzy too.

As for your tune, yes it is a fairly large bass rise but some people like that too. It does help when driving I find especially if you have a pretty high noise floor. As for dips/cancellations, I would be less worried about 200 and 400 Hz and more concerned with that dip around 70-80 Hz. To my eyes it looks like a possible cancellation due to improper ta between sub and mid. I also would look at the bumps around 700 Hz and 1.6 kHz. The latter could make some music pieces pretty hard to listen to. Then again maybe it is of no issue in your ride too.

Oh, and subscribed.


----------



## rton20s

No more build progress, but I did get some tuning time with Jim (Big Red) a couple of weekends ago and had my second comp this last Saturday. I haven't been able to make much progress on the deadening because I have been so busy. 

Jim did a great job on the tuning, especially taking into consideration the limitations of my install. A couple of those limitations are the resonance the still exists (especially in the doors) and the tweeter location. The reflections off of the windshield as well as the factory drill are playing havoc with the tweeters top end as well as my imaging. For the current tune, both 50Hz and 80 Hz are dropped significantly. This created a dip in frequency response (more on that in a minute), but did help with some of the resonance in the doors. Thank you again Jim! 

I said from the beginning I wanted to use stock locations, but would make a change if needed. Well, it is needed. The mids will stay where they are (I want to remain in MECA Street, and don't want to build kicks), but the tweeters will be moving to my sail panels. I'm not sure about aiming yet, but it will probably be a bit of a compromise between optimizing sound quality and aesthetics. Being in a design profession, having the two sides not be symmetrical (or close to it) would likely drive me nuts. Even if it sounded better. 

At the comp this weekend, I have to admit, my expectations weren't all that high. After spending time with Jim, I was more aware than ever what the car's shortcomings were. I hoped it would do better than the last competition, but just wasn't sure. There ended up being three competitors in my class. Richard Haltom (UNBROKEN), Dean Chen (not sure of screen name) and myself. In the end, I placed second with a score of 74.0. I was very excited to score 8.25 points higher than my previous comp and receive second place. Richard took first with a 74.75 and I don't recall what Dean's score was. Scoring that close to Richard was a victory unto itself for me. 

I also got some good notes from the judge, Todd Woodworth. Most of his comments were very much in line with what I knew going in, which is good. Lacking midbass, some staging issues and some of the top end/ambiance issues. I think the best compliment he gave me was when he started off our conversation after listening to my car with something along the lines of, "When you get into a car, you usually have expectations of what you are going to hear. And I'll be honest, your car surprised me!" I'm not sure exactly what it was that lowered his expecatations, but I was happy to hear that he got out of my car with a better opinion than when he got in.  

On my drive home, I did reduce some of the EQ cuts at 50 and 80 Hz. At freeway speeds with crazy winds across the grapevine those rattles/resonance those frequencies might create aren't really an issue. This definitely helped in the midbass/impact department. 

I'm not sure what my next comp will be, but over the next few weeks I will be working on my deadening as well as playing with tweeter placement.


----------



## damonryoung

rton20s said:


> I think the best compliment he gave me was when he started off our conversation after listening to my car with something along the lines of, "When you get into a car, you usually have expectations of what you are going to hear. And I'll be honest, your car surprised me!" I'm not sure exactly what it was that lowered his expecatations, but I was happy to hear that he got out of my car with a better opinion than when he got in.



I'm not sure I like the fact that a judge at one of these competitions is getting into our vehicles with a preconceived notion as to how it will sound...

I did like all the notes he left, but that kinda rubs me the wrong way...


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I think everyone has some sort of bias or expectation on certain things, but its a concern to me when they say things like a class d amp can never compete with a class ab in sound quality.


----------



## rton20s

A statement like that can be a little disconcerting. But the fact that he told me that straight away and overcame whatever preconception he might have had tells me he was doing his best to be a fair/unbiased judge. 

I have a feeling part of that preconception might have been the head unit. If I am recalling correctly, he asked if my head unit was a P99, to make sure he knew how to operate it. When I explained it was an 80PRS, that might have generated the preconceived notions.


----------



## papasin

In this case, this judge has no bias towards amps as the SQ best of show was running all Class D. 

But guys, in all seriousness and I don't mean to sound like a jerk...you all are entitled to your opinions, but on the day of the show, it is the judge's opinion that matters and only his or hers is the one that counts. Right, wrong or indifferent, judges are human and not robots. Being a competitor and a judge myself, I've been on both sides of the fence. If you guys aren't happy with something a judge says or is doing, well, be part of the solution, not the problem. Maybe you should get certified and become a judge? This car audio community is small enough as it is. But guess what, the judging pool is even smaller!

I don't believe ANY judge feels they are above reproach...I certainly don't. But at the same time, I also know a lot of the folks who compete and it's hard not to form an opinion when you've seen a person's build log, heard what a certain vehicle sounds like, etc. We all learn through the journey of our own vehicles as well as others. Perhaps this judge heard an identical vehicle, but sounded much worse and was really complimenting you, who knows? I know when I get into a car to judge, I do my best to block out any previous experience, to focus on the moment and not think of the gear, the install, etc. and let my ears do the judging. But it is through each individual's experiences that we learn, grow, and improve. While this is only my first year judging, I've probably judged more cars in this first year than others may have in several years combined and one of the things I've learned is to do everything in my power to be as accurate and critical for each car I judge and go with no preconceptions, but I know that after hearing a person's vehicle once, I more critically try to listen the second, third, etc. and build upon the previous instances because I also want to try my best to help someone improve and give critical feedback.

Bottomline, go easy on the judges.


----------



## damonryoung

Like I said previously, I thought he did an excellent job.... That's where I'll leave it on this forum...

Sorry for the derail Dustin...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Richard, I completely agree with everything below. And I'm glad the previously mentioned bias seemed to be put aside with this event. I think its just human nature to have questions, especially when things like that have been said in the past. With my last build, I stopped telling people what was in the car before they listened, because more often than not, brand bias affected what the opinion of the sound was with my car.

There are definitely those that can set that aside though. 


Anyways, congrats Dustin, looking forward to hearing it.




papasin said:


> In this case, this judge has no bias towards amps as the SQ best of show was running all Class D.
> 
> But guys, in all seriousness and I don't mean to sound like a jerk...you all are entitled to your opinions, but on the day of the show, it is the judge's opinion that matters and only his or hers is the one that counts. Right, wrong or indifferent, judges are human and not robots. Being a competitor and a judge myself, I've been on both sides of the fence. If you guys aren't happy with something a judge says or is doing, well, be part of the solution, not the problem. Maybe you should get certified and become a judge? This car audio community is small enough as it is. But guess what, the judging pool is even smaller!
> 
> I don't believe ANY judge feels they are above reproach...I certainly don't. But at the same time, I also know a lot of the folks who compete and it's hard not to form an opinion when you've seen a person's build log, heard what a certain vehicle sounds like, etc. We all learn through the journey of our own vehicles as well as others. Perhaps this judge heard an identical vehicle, but sounded much worse and was really complimenting you, who knows? I know when I get into a car to judge, I do my best to block out any previous experience, to focus on the moment and not think of the gear, the install, etc. and let my ears do the judging. But it is through each individual's experiences that we learn, grow, and improve. While this is only my first year judging, I've probably judged more cars in this first year than others may have in several years combined and one of the things I've learned is to do everything in my power to be as accurate and critical for each car I judge and go with no preconceptions, but I know that after hearing a person's vehicle once, I more critically try to listen the second, third, etc. and build upon the previous instances because I also want to try my best to help someone improve and give critical feedback.
> 
> Bottomline, go easy on the judges.


----------



## theoldguy

Black Rain said:


> I likes the fact that there are people trying to use different items to deaden their does. How do you have them attached in the does and panels? Being that doors always seem to get some type of water in them, how do they work against that?


I wouldnt consider insulation a deadener. Only way to deaden is to add weight. Not much weight with insulation. This is more of an absorption material. Should still work great, but definitely not a deadener.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

theoldguy said:


> I wouldnt consider insulation a deadener. Only way to deaden is to add weight. Not much weight with insulation. This is more of an absorption material. Should still work great, but definitely not a deadener.


Deadening is certainly not about adding weight, in fact just adding weight is a very ineffective way to deaden. In this case, Dustin is using the insulation material to apply pressure between the inner and outer skin of the hatch, which prevents rattling and lessens vibration.


----------



## jtaudioacc

I hear for the next comp the judge is required to put this on in the bathroom while the car is pulled in. he or she will have an assistant to write scores down. all they have to do is listen and not look at anything...











only issue i see is, the mask may cut down on some 45khz


----------



## Golden Ear

Bwahahahaha!:laugh: No comment.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

^ hahahaa. Good ****!!


----------



## Coppertone

Looks like the sleep mask I wear at night hahahahahahahaha ..


----------



## rton20s

I wonder if the Papasins already have a couple on order.  

Though, the implementation of these will throw out all of the work I've done to address HRTF.


----------



## HondAudio

This thing done yet? 

Now that it's over 100 in Arizona, I'm thinking of dropping the headliner to put some insulation between it and the roof. The AC is fighting the heat being radiated from over my head when I'm driving


----------



## rton20s

No. 

Sometimes, life just gets in the way. Between a hectic work schedule and trying to turn our ice cream hobby into a legitimate business I just haven't had time to work on the car. Everything is functioning, but I still have a laundry list of "to dos." 

I need to get some good measurements of the current system, so I can try to match (or improve) them when I change my tweeter location. I also need to finish the deadening job with the MLV and CCF. And there is still all of the finish work in the hatch, of course. So far, I have avoided dropping the headliner. If that happens, I'll definitely try to order some Thinsulate first. 

I also need to order a new door lock actuator for the rear passenger door. Not that it is used very often, but I'll be in there for deadening anyway. Might as well. I just hate dropping $80 on something like a lock actuator. 

I'm hoping to have at least the deadening and tweeter relocation done for my next MECA show on June 28th. Crap. That is only 2 1/2 weeks. :worried:


----------



## damonryoung

Hop to!! 

We got our first little ice cream maker a couple weeks ago, and it is pretty fun... just gotta keep the majority out of the house or I might blow up. My co-workers are enjoying it though...


----------



## rton20s

DRTHJTA said:


> Hop to!!
> 
> We got our first little ice cream maker a couple weeks ago, and it is pretty fun... just gotta keep the majority out of the house or I might blow up. My co-workers are enjoying it though...


Not all of us can keep up with your pace being productive on the car.  

And it doesn't help that the room my 2 year old sleeps in is right next to the garage. 

We have found that we eat _less_ ice cream now than we did before the wife decided to start doing this. A good and a bad thing, I suppose.


----------



## JayinMI

Here...save some of the time you spend making ice cream to work on the car:










lol

Jay


----------



## rton20s

Awesome. I sent that to the wife. 

We're kind of looking a different direction though...


----------



## rton20s

Due to a Bosch Lead Acid battery in my wife's car taking a complete dump, I swapped my Interstate Lead Acid battery into her car and dropped an Exide Edge AGM battery into mine. The car usually takes a Group 25 battery, but I have seen others fit a Group 34, so that is what I chose. The only reason I went with the Exide over a Diehard Platinum was the price. 

With the aftermarket intake, I was fortunate to fit the Group 34 battery. I've got the thing anchored down tight, but the corner of the battery actually touches the MAF plug. I checked some dimensions and other brands have even larger Group 34 batteries, so I lucked out. I'll probably spend some more time trying to shift the battery around to give some clearance from the MAF plug. 

First, a little before and after of the damage done by the crappy Bosch battery in my wife's car...









And the new battery in my car. (Yes, I know it is filthy, I have no fender liners.) As you can see, a very tight fit...


----------



## [email protected]

So, you are sayin' I could have a fresh batch of ice cream every morning when I get to work! OH MAN!!!!!








JayinMI said:


> Here...save some of the time you spend making ice cream to work on the car:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> Jay


----------



## rton20s

Well. This is quite unfortunate. I drove the car last night to a charity event with my wife. Everything seemed fine, though I never did crank the volume. Probably had it around 20 at the most as the wife and I were talking about the event on the drive home. 

Cut to this morning. I start the car and notice immediately that something is off. I'm hearing a lot of static and nothing at all from the driver's side. Since I had it on the radio, I thought it might have just been bad reception and thought it would go away when I moved the car. As I back out, there is no change. I try switching bands (FM to AM and back) and there is no change. I power the head unit down and back up, no change. I switch to CD, no change. I turn the car off and restart it, no change. 

Not wanting to do any damage, I figured I should shut the head unit off an drive to work in silence. Nope. After shutting it down, I'm still getting the static and it appears to be coming from my right mid. :worried:

I haven't had time to do anything with it yet, but I will take a look tonight. Rough plan is as follows...

1. Power system up and check amps to see if there is any sort of diagnostic code at either amp. 
2. Check signal paths for problems. 
3. Check power, ground paths for problems. (This means pulling the enclosure. )
4. Contact retailer/Arc about sending the amp in for evaluation/repair. 

This is *NOT* what I want to experience only a few days from a competition. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, I am all ears!


----------



## rton20s

Had this all typed up and lost it. Here is the condensed version...

On the way to lunch, system issue was the same. On the way back, it was gone. 

Turned the key to the "ON" position to test with the engine off and everything worked. No more static and all drivers functioning. No issues with the amps and all connections were good. Started the car to see if the system would revert back to the bad condition and it did not. Pushed the car and the system fairly hard on the drive back to work and there were no signs of stress. 

I still plan to give the system a once over tonight. It just seems there either has to be an install issue or the amp has an intermittent problem. 

I'm still very open to anyone and everyone's thoughts on the matter. Seems very odd to have 3 of 4 channels dead and that 4th channel sending static to the driver when the head unit is off.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

It seems like it would have to be the amp itself for the noise to continue with the head unit off. I could understand something like a rca problem if it was only when the head unit was powered up, but the amp shouldn't even be powered up without the head unit being on.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It seems like it would have to be the amp itself for the noise to continue with the head unit off. I could understand something like a rca problem if it was only when the head unit was powered up, but the amp shouldn't even be powered up without the head unit being on.


My thoughts exactly. I have a decent ground for the amps, but that has been my area of biggest concern. I couldn't see a bad ground causing the issue either, but I don't know. You can see the two ground cables connected to the stand off for the spare tire mount in the pic below.


----------



## damonryoung

Was there any output from your sub??


----------



## rton20s

DRTHJTA said:


> Was there any output from your sub??


When I was having the issue, I never turned it up to listen for the sub. If there was an issue with the amps, I didn't want to risk doing even more damage. 

I planned on the sub and amps before my drive back from lunch. That is when everything just started working again. At that point, yes, the sub was functioning properly.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Bad day... Sorry to hear.

Im leaning towards the amplifier also.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Dustin, today and tomorrow are shot, but if you still need to trouble shoot later in the week, I'm available after 1 or so. My garage is dead empty now, plenty of room to work.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks Chris! If you're available on Thursday evening, that would be great. Still solid tonight on my drive home. I haven't gone back out yet to take a look at all of the cable runs.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thursday should be fine, I guess fridays shot too anyways so that works perfect.


----------



## HondAudio

That mounting bracket for the spare tire might not be the best place for a ground. Is there anywhere else you can attach the cables - to the rear seatbelt bolts, maybe?


----------



## cobb2819

HondAudio said:


> That mounting bracket for the spare tire mighty not be the best place for a ground. Is there anywhere else you can attach the cables - to the rear seatbelt bolts, maybe?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was thinking the same thing. That standoff is probably spot welded with 2-4 welds. A Ground Lug to the actual body might be better.


----------



## rton20s

There might be. I usually try not to use seat bracket bolts, because the brackets can prevent the ring terminal from laying flat and getting a good connection. 

I didn't get a chance to go through the car last night like I wanted to and issue was back this morning. I had the radio on moderate volume and it was fine at first. In my short (10 min.) drive to work, the static started out of the right mid again, as well as fluctuating volume. Once that started, I powered the head unit down and left it off. I could still hear the static out of the right mid. 

Looks like I'll be making time this evening to at least go though all of the cabling. If nothing resolves it, there will probably be some more extensive testing at Chris on Thursday. I do have an amp waiting to go in the wife's car that may allow me to A/B compare to see if the issue persists with a different amp.


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. That standoff is probably spot welded with 2-4 welds. A Ground Lug to the actual body might be better.


I knew that going in. When it worked fine with that ground when I tested it, I decided to just go with it. I probably should have just drilled a new hole and grounded it to the belly pan. Oh well, the drill is charged and ready to go.  I just hate to pull everything back out.


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> I knew that going in. When it worked fine with that ground when I tested it, I decided to just go with it. I probably should have just drilled a new hole and grounded it to the belly pan. Oh well, the drill is charged and ready to go.  I just hate to pull everything back out.


I've got a Pozitive Ground Kit if you want me to bring it on Saturday.


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> I've got a Pozitive Ground Kit if you want me to bring it on Saturday.


I hadn't seen those kits before. Looks pretty nice. I appreciate the offer, but I'll probably have the ground changed before Saturday. If I'm going to pull the enclosure out, I'd like to only do it once.


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> I hadn't seen those kits before. Looks pretty nice. I appreciate the offer, but I'll probably have the ground changed before Saturday. If I'm going to pull the enclosure out, I'd like to only do it once.


Slacker!


----------



## JoshHefnerX

rton20s said:


> I spent a couple hours at TooStubborn2Fail's place on Saturday where he helped me start over, essentially from scratch. We had previously set the mids' gain level with the oscilloscope and balanced the subwoofer and tweeters by ear. The gains just seemed a bit too high for my liking (sub was nearly max), and after hearing a few other cars are the MECA show I decided they were probably a bit "hot."
> 
> This time we set the gains by ear, starting with the mids. We brought the gains up just enough to get some impact. Right now they are between 1/8 and 1/4 turn. The tweeters are all the way down and the subwoofer is at about half. This seemed to level match pretty well.
> 
> Oh, we also stuffed my enclosure with denim insulation, probably between 1/3 and 1/2 the volume. We ran sweeps before and after. I'm not sure if Chris saved the results or not. The difference in response was negligible. The curves were nearly identical. However, there was some difference in the waterfall plots. The stuffed enclosure did seem to drop off a bit quicker than the non-stuffed enclosure. Did I hear a difference? Not that I can tell. That being said, the stuffing stays as I am not pulling the subwoofer out again unless I have to.
> 
> After setting gains, we moved on to trying to work on my staging. We used the L/R EQ, phase and time alignment (starting with actual meaurements) to make the adjustments. Swapping seats and changing tracks at least a dozen times, we finally got to a point where it had decent left to right staging. There certainly needs to be some more time spent here. I still need to get the height up, as well as trying to get the subwoofer to stay forward. Initial impact from the sub is actually pretty good, but I think vibration/rattles/resonance are pulling the stage back on the bottom end.
> 
> When this was done, we moved on to running some sweeps and looking at the response plot to make some EQ adjustments. Again, the limitations of the DEH-80PRS were pretty apparent here. We did our best adding a dB or two here and subtracting a dB there to try and smooth out the response. You can see our final response plot below. There is definitely room for improvement, and I realize that the rise on the bass end looks HUGE. Hopefully Chris can chime in on this, but it doesn't seem nearly as loud as it look. A quick subwoofer level adjustment should easily bring that back in line. I also really hope to find some time for BigRed to get some hands on again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have done some listening since, as well as overlaid some common "target curves" to see where it stands. For the most part, (outside of the unaddressable anomalies and bass bump) it actually "looks" pretty good. I do think I am going to attempt the following EQ adjustments and see how it sounds...
> 
> 5k +2dB
> 12.5k +3dB
> 20k +2 dB
> 
> I may also change my LPF setting on the subwoofer from 63 Hz @ 12 dB/octave to 80 Hz @ 12 dB/octave. I'd like to see if it will address that dip around 80 Hz and help smooth out the transition from subwoofer to mids.


I could be wrong it it almost looks like you've got a harmonic at about 800,1600,2400,3200 ect....

On your amp it would have to be some kind of wiring problem to happen w/ everything turned off. open short or dead short.

Josh


----------



## rton20s

The tuning on the system was completely redone by BigRed (Jim) a couple weeks after TooStubborn2Fail (Chris) and I went through the procedure you quoted above. It was a big improvement, but there are still advancements to be made. There are some installation changes that need to occur before additional tuning is done. 

On the noise issue, I went ahead and pulled the enclosure with the amps last night. I didn't have as much time as I had hoped, but still got a little bit accomplished. I checked all of the cabling at the enclosure and under the back seat prior to removing the enclosure and everything looked to be in good working order. All connections were tight (including the ground) and non of the RCAs, signal or power wires were touching to create a short that I could see. I also checked under the hood and all of the power cable connections were solid there as well. 

I also changed the ground location. I tried to find an existing bolt to use first, but there were none in the area. And I had to keep the ground location pretty close to where it had been so I didn't need to create new ground cables. (No ring terminals on hand). The new ground is bolted through the floor pan with a lock nut and the paint has been removed under the ground. Between tonight and tomorrow I'll get everything reinstalled. Hopefully I'll get it done in time to take it by Chris's place to get a second set of eyes on it. 

The new ground location is shown below. You can see the old ground location on top of the spare tire stand off. I really hope this fixes the issue. I really don't want to pull the enclosure again to have the amp gone through.


----------



## jtaudioacc

you bolted the ground thru with a bolt and nut? cause, you know, it's easy to just reach under and get a nut on there. well, kinda, your car is pretty low. i also have another 1/0 going to the "frame" for the hell of it.

that ground terminal is pretty weak status if you ask me. might want to upgrade that for a little more piece of mind.


----------



## theoldguy

theoldguy said:


> I wouldn't consider insulation a deadener. Only way to deaden is to add weight. Not much weight with insulation. This is more of an absorption material. Should still work great, but definitely not a deadener.


Wow, I am an idiot. No idea why I wrote this. Terrible advice! I think when I read this initially, I replaced the word "deaden" with resonant frequency". Not even close, but that's all I can think of. Sorry for such a terrible post in your thread. 

In fact, I ended up buying a 6 pack of the denim insulation for my own vehicle and I love the stuff. My rear hatch door is filled with it now and it is solid as a rock. Definitely a great material and I highly recommend it to anyone.


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> you bolted the ground thru with a bolt and nut? cause, you know, it's easy to just reach under and get a nut on there. well, kinda, your car is pretty low. i also have another 1/0 going to the "frame" for the hell of it.
> 
> that ground terminal is pretty weak status if you ask me. might want to upgrade that for a little more piece of mind.


Yes, there is a through bolt and nut. 

1/4-20 bolt > washer > ring terminal > ring terminal > floor pan > nylock nut

Are you suggesting, perhaps running a set of cables (I have plenty of 4 awg, but no 0 awg on hand) from that bolt under the car back to the "frame rails?" If so, did you run a bolt from one side of the rail to the other (2"+)?


----------



## jtaudioacc

rton20s said:


> Yes, there is a through bolt and nut.
> 
> 1/4-20 bolt > washer > ring terminal > ring terminal > floor pan > nylock nut
> 
> Are you suggesting, perhaps running a set of cables (I have plenty of 4 awg, but no 0 awg on hand) from that bolt under the car back to the "frame rails?" If so, did you run a bolt from one side of the rail to the other (2"+)?


i can't say it makes any difference. but i was under there, so added one. i used the tow hook or whatever bolt is under there, not a long bolt through the whole thing.


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> i can't say it makes any difference. but i was under there, so added one. i used the tow hook or whatever bolt is under there, not a long bolt through the whole thing.


Got it. I'll take a look, thanks. 

While we're discussing it, do you think it is necessary to continue two runs of 4 awg from point to point on the ground extension? 

I'll need to pick up some ring terminals anyway, so I'll go ahead and do the double run. I was just curious. 

Come to think of it, I need to check my cable stash. I need to use some of that 4 awg for my wife's amp upgrade.


----------



## rton20s

The car is back together as of last night. I still need to add the secondary grounding cable that JT mentioned from the current ground location back to the "frame rail" under the car. That will not be done for this weekend. 

I took a quick test drive with the car last night and did hear the noise (static) for just a few seconds from the right mid. Then, it was gone. After the quick loop around the neighborhood, I sat in the driveway for about 20 minutes listening. No noise, both with the car on and off. 

The wife has the car today, but I'll have it again this afternoon. I plan to swap the L/R RCAs and speaker wires to see if it makes a difference. See if the static moves from left to right. The only problem is, it is completely inconsistent. I can not force the noise to happen.


----------



## rton20s

Another update. My intermittent noise issue was still there over the weekend. During my drive down to the MECA comp (3.5 hours) it only happened once for about 5 seconds. Then, of course, it reared its ugly head during judging. Thankfully, only at the start. 

My wife drove the car on Monday and said she heard it immediately. So Monday night I swapped RCAs for the mids, as well as the speaker wires. I was hoping to see if the noise moved to the opposite side or if it stayed. So far, I've heard no noise since. I guess it is a good thing I didn't really make use of the independent gain for each channel for L/R tuning. I do plan to pull the head unit and make sure that it isn't an issue with the harness or the RCAs in the dash. 

In the mean time, I mocked up some tweeter cups in the sail panels just to see how they will look/aim. The plan is to temporarily mount the tweeters in similar orientations to see which sounds best before making a final determination. Aesthetically, I know which ones I prefer. But I guess that doesn't really matter, does it? 

Again, these are just visual checks at a couple of angles. Final angle and positioning will be determined through listening sessions. 

Illusion cup angled ~15 degrees in and parallel to ground plane...









Illusion cup angled ~15 degrees and up ~20 degrees from ground plane...









Focal cup more "on axis" and parallel to ground plane...









Focal cup more "on axis" and up ~30 degrees from ground plane...









Or, maybe I can convince someone else to sell me their killer xB sail panels for the CuBe tweeter!


----------



## rton20s

Update... the noise is back. It had been absent after I made the RCA & speaker cable switch, but returned this morning. The noise did, in fact, move to the driver's side. So, some more swapping of cabling will occur. More testing to do, until I can narrow down the source of the noise. 

Since I'll be getting in the dash, I'll probably install a better ground to the head unit as well. Just to make sure that isn't part of the issue.


----------



## rton20s

I spent a little time on Saturday changing things up again to test the noise issue. I have changed all of the speaker cabling back to where it was when I originally installed it. The RCAs for the mids have been swapped left to right at both the head unit and the amplifier for the mids. While I was in there, I confirmed that all RCA connections were nice and tight. I also added the second ground to the head unit. 

It has only been a few days, and so far no noise. Last time it took several days for the noise to show back up. I'm hoping it is gone for good, but we shall see. 

I plan to do some comparative listening of tweeter positions on Friday with TooStubborn2Fail lending a second set of ears.


----------



## rton20s

And just like I thought, a few days later and the issue has once again reared its ugly head. Seems very odd to me that it is almost always in the morning when I first start the car that it will show up. This time it back on the right mid. 

I have my sketch diagrams of the different test configurations at home and will run through them to narrow down what the source could be.


----------



## rton20s

Since I have been sharing, I figured I would go ahead and post up some troubleshooting diagrams I created. I created the diagram to help myself track down what might be causing my noise. These are setup as letter size sheets and I also created a template that I can print out to mark up while working on the car. The yellow highlight traces the signal from the noise back to the source. 

Overboard? Sure. But, it will be easier for me to come back to and clearer for me to understand than my sketches on a note pad. 

*ORIGINAL INSTALL*
My initial install was fine for months when all of a sudden the noise issue began. Below is a diagram of the system (power, ground, remote not shown for clarity). As you can see, the noise started in the right mid. 









*TEST 0.5*
No diagram. I changed the ground as listed in my previous post. I would still like to extend the ground to the tow hook mount as JT mentioned, but it has not been done yet. 

*TEST 01*
I swapped the L/R RCAs for the mids at the amp only. I also swapped the speaker cables for the mids coming from the amp at the terminal strip. This got rid of the issue for a few days, but then it returned. The noise from the right mid to the left mid with this change. 









*TEST 02*
The speaker cabling was reverted back to the original installation. The RCAs remained swapped at the amp and I made the same swap at the head unit. So this was essentially the same as the original installation, except the RCA swap. I also added a secondary ground to the head unit since I already had it pulled out of the dash. Two days of decent performance and the noise is back. This time, back on the right side. 









I don't think it is a head unit issue, as the noise has gone from one side to the other and back again with my changes. I don't think it is an RCA issue, as I have had the noise happen through two different RCAs. I do have some Audison RCAs I could toss in just for more testing, but I really don't think it is the issue. I also don't think it is the terminal strip as the noise has shown up with different terminals. 

I just keep coming back to the amp. If anyone has other suggestions or course of action, I would love to hear it. :worried:


----------



## rton20s

Had a short listening session with TooStubborn2Fail this afternoon. After trying several different angles on the tweeters I was happy with the one I liked the most aesthetically. Quite fortunate. 

Without even messing with tuning, the difference was apparent. Much more detailed with better width and accuracy with no perceived loss of depth. Gone was the smearing I've been experiencing with the tweeters in the stock dash location. Perhaps Stubborn will chime in with his impressions from the passenger seat. 

Now I just need to figure out how to get the tweeters out if the metal bridge mounts and get the new mounts installed in the sails. The. The tuning!

Oh, one last thing. There was, of course, none of the noise issue while we were listening. 



rton20s said:


> Focal cup more "on axis" and up ~30 degrees from ground plane...


----------



## REGULARCAB

Im not sure why more companies don't make tweeter mounts like the focal cups. They seem like a very logical shape/angle and look sexy to boot.


----------



## rton20s

Agreed. It is most likely a cost issue. Even the plastic cups that come with the Illusion Carbons are nowhere near as nice. The soft touch finish on the Focals is pretty nice as well.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

The new mounting location sounded much better. I didnt sit in the drivers seat, so I cant really comment on imaging other than to say it did seem to get wider once they were removed from the dash. But there was a huge increase in clarity in the mid to highs with them not bouncing of the window-dash-window-dash etc. 

Sadly, no noise, but I do think its going to end up being the amp. In fact, we talked about another test to run, basically not bridging the amp to the mids, and trying out all 4 channels by themselves.


----------



## rton20s

The amp is out...









...and has been placed in its original box. Still looks brand new...









It has been packaged up in another box and will be shipped off to Arc tomorrow for testing.


----------



## Golden Ear

So what were your results from testing the amp. Did you find one of the channels to be causing the probs?


----------



## rton20s

With all of the different configurations I tried it appears the bridged F/R channels for the right mid are the source of the noise. I'm at the end of my ability to testing, so off to Arc it goes. 

Just to do it, I'll probably hook up the Eclipse amp I have that is slated for the wife's car. Just one last reassurance that it isn't anything with the wiring. 

By the way, I pulled that amp after the sun went down because it had been so hot yesterday. It was probably still over 100 degrees in the garage, and the halogen shop lights didn't help. I think I sweat more than my wife who was doing her daily workout at the time. I do not look forward to the re-installation.


----------



## rton20s

A short update. I placed second again at the MECA comp at Simplicity in Sound this weekend. There are several things I have been puting off that I know could aid in my staging and overall sound quality. So tonight I pulled my door panels and tweeters in anticipation of the revised tweeter location and more deadening. 

I'll pick up some hardware for the tweeter cups this week and continue working on getting the MLV and CCF installed.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> A short update. I placed second again at the MECA comp at Simplicity in Sound this weekend. There are several things I have been puting off that I know could aid in my staging and overall sound quality. So tonight I pulled my door panels and tweeters in anticipation of the revised tweeter location and more deadening.
> 
> I'll pick up some hardware for the tweeter cups this week and continue working on getting the MLV and CCF installed.


This probably won't help you when the car is stationary for a sound-off, and maybe it's my mind playing tricks on me, but I've had some interesting results with that "Reflectix" radiant barrier between the headliner and roof above the front seats.

It's supposed to help the AC battle the outside heat here in Arizona, but it seems to have the added benefit of cutting down on wind noise when the car is moving 

I'd like to do the entire roof if I can get the headliner dropped, and I plan to experiment using the Reflectix in lieu of CCF between my floors and MLV pieces. It's a ~1/4" of air, after all - it'll separate the MLV from the CLD and maybe insulate better than CCF.


----------



## rton20s

Interesting. Hadn't heard of Reflectix. I don't have plans to drop my head liner right now, but I know ultimately, I should. 

For now, I will be happy just to try and get my doors deadened better and stop the rattles due to resonance. I plan on wedging some 1/2" open cell phone behind the door lock rods. Possibly multiple layers. If I can stop resonance of those door locks and my B pillar panels, I'll be making huge strides with my noise issues.


----------



## rton20s

My time on the car has been absolutely hit and miss. I got to spend some time today and plan on spending some time tomorrow. I haven't made as much progress on the deadening as I would have liked, but other progress has been made. I ended up removing both the mids and the tweeters so I could pull the tweeter speaker wires into the doors. While I had it opened up, I installed the rear "absorber" section of the F.A.S.T. ring kit I ordered. Sound Connection 6 ½

I've also learned a couple lessons along the way. Namely, skip the hardware at Lowe's. First, those 8-32 button head socket cap screws are junk. Neither metric nor standard allen wrenches would fit. Second, never use the slotted brass threaded inserts in MDF.  Even after a clean pre-drill, 25% of them snapped when installing into the baffles. 









A quick OSH run and I picked up the threaded inserts that I typically use as well as some socket cap screws. The mids are not reinstalled yet, but both they and the tweeters should be in tomorrow. The cups are installed in the sail panels and awaiting the tweeters. Here you can see the second set of threaded inserts installed in the baffle. I chose to go ahead and make this change since it was the third time I would be installing the mid in the passenger side baffle with the supplied wood screws. 









And one more thing, I've found the tool kit from iFixit to be pretty invaluable during my most recent round of work on the car. It has really sped up my time in reinstalling the amp and was great for installing the threaded inserts. It is really good for any smaller hardware you might have to deal with.


----------



## JayinMI

I use those exact same threaded inserts and love them. Here's the trick...don't try to put them in with a flat blade screwdriver. I take an extra screw of the proper thread, and a nut. I put the screw in the insert with the nut up near the head. I thread the screw in about the depth of the insert, then I back the nut down so it is snug with the insert top. Then use my drill to screw it in by using the head of the screw. Every once in a while the screw/nut gets stuck, but it's pretty rare for me.

Jay


----------



## rton20s

That exact technique is exactly what I had planned to do when they began to fail. It is why I went to Orchard. I saw the other inserts and just made the swap. I'll post another update shortly with a couple more photos.


----------



## rton20s

I made some more progress on Saturday. I still have not completed the MLV and CCF. The MLV trimming is proving to be far more work than I initially thought. So much fitting and trimming. Hopefully by state finals. 

Below are a couple of pictures from the progress. The tweeters are installed in the sail panels, the mids are reinstalled and the F.A.S.T. rings are in place. 


















I set the gains on the amp using the AudioTools RTA app and IMM-6 to match up to the sub output. There is still plenty of tuning to do. Most of the settings for EQ and time alignment have been left the same. I cut a bit at my two highest frequencies as the tweeters are much more prevalent now that they aren't in the dash firing through the grills. I also made some very quick time alignment adjustments to help center up the stage. 

Initial impressions with the tweeters in the new location are good. Staging seems to be much more focused than they were previously with less "smearing." There also appears to be additional width without sacrifice of depth. I'm really hoping I can have get the time to have someone far more skilled than myself to give it a listen and a better tune in the next couple of weeks. 

I have also placed an order for a dash pad. After doing some searching, I ended up going with a Coverking suede model as it seems to have good fitment on the xB and is available without the speaker grill cutouts. It doesn't hurt that it was under $40 shipped from Amazon. 
Amazon.com: Coverking Custom Fit Dashcovers for Select Scion xB Models - Suede (Black): Automotive

A photo from another xB owner with the same dash pad...


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## rton20s

One thing that I forgot to mention. While I very much appreciate Jacob's suggestion and help with the Focal tweeter mounts, they weren't quite as simple as I thought they would be. After struggling for quite a while to try and carefully press the Illusion tweeters in place I decided there was no other choice than to bust out the dremel. 

An hour and a half later I had finally done enough sanding and test fitting to make it work without compromising the integrity of cup. So yes, it is possible to use the Focal tweeter cups for the Illusion tweeters. It just isn't quite as "plug and play" as I had hoped.


----------



## HondAudio

JayinMI said:


> I use those exact same threaded inserts and love them. Here's the trick...don't try to put them in with a flat blade screwdriver. I take an extra screw of the proper thread, and a nut. I put the screw in the insert with the nut up near the head. I thread the screw in about the depth of the insert, then I back the nut down so it is snug with the insert top. Then use my drill to screw it in by using the head of the screw. Every once in a while the screw/nut gets stuck, but it's pretty rare for me.
> 
> Jay


Ouch... I gave up on those brass inserts a long time ago - so many broken ones 



I prefer threaded inserts like this instead


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Ouch... I gave up on those brass inserts a long time ago - so many broken ones
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer threaded inserts like this instead


That is essentially what I am using. Much easier than dealing with broken inserts or cobbling together your own installation tool out of other hardware. 

My dash mat should arrive today. It probably won't make near as much difference as it would have if my tweeters were further forward, but I look forward to seeing how much impact there actually is.


----------



## JayinMI

rton20s said:


> As promised, here is the update...
> 
> The Hybrid Audio Technologies Imagine I61-2 and I10SW have been sold. I worked with Bing (and Joey) at Simplicity in Sound on a new set of components, subwoofer and additional amp for the sub.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> For the sub stage I've moved up to a 12" Arc Audio Black (dual 4 Ohm). I would have loved to get a Carbon XL 12 to match the components, but there is just no way I could have justified the cost... especially to the wife. I'm still super excited about the Black and getting it installed.


Yeah, I know I pulled this out of the past, but I had a question. Did you ever get the I10SW installed and playing? I'm looking at subs, and I'm limited by the shape of my enclosure (currently, my Dayton RS 10's magnet hits the fender well.). From the looks of the Technical Drawings, it looks like it should fit, but I searched for some reviews and the threads always seem to get sidetracked, or like one person says "it sounded good, nice and punchy." What were your opinions? I'm not a bass head, and I'll have to run it sealed...but I will have it on about 360 Watts of old school A/B Sony Mobile ES power. I was considering the C10 or C10XL but Bing suggested the 10 didn't dig that deep with an FS around 40. And then there was the price. lol
Doesn't hurt any that I work for a Hybrid Dealer, either.

Thanks.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Yeah, I know I pulled this out of the past, but I had a question. Did you ever get the I10SW installed and playing? I'm looking at subs, and I'm limited by the shape of my enclosure (currently, my Dayton RS 10's magnet hits the fender well.). From the looks of the Technical Drawings, it looks like it should fit, but I searched for some reviews and the threads always seem to get sidetracked, or like one person says "it sounded good, nice and punchy." What were your opinions? I'm not a bass head, and I'll have to run it sealed...but I will have it on about 360 Watts of old school A/B Sony Mobile ES power. I was considering the C10 or C10XL but Bing suggested the 10 didn't dig that deep with an FS around 40. And then there was the price. lol
> 
> Doesn't hurt any that I work for a Hybrid Dealer, either.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Jay



No problems with low end extension in our van with a C10XL. 

For either, it's going to depend on power and airspace. How much airspace are you working with?


----------



## rton20s

I never did build an enclosure for, or install the I10SW for my car. I did demo it for about 5-10 minutes in a sealed enclosure in TooStubborn2Fail's car. Certainly not enough time to give any sort of evaluation.


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> No problems with low end extension in our van with a C10XL.
> 
> For either, it's going to depend on power and airspace. How much airspace are you working with?


About .55 gross. I'm hoping to gain a little with some Blackhole Stuff. Seems a little small for most of the subs I can find that will fit, but I know Bing has had good results in some cars they've done using smaller than optimal available space.

The airspace is less the problem than the magnet hitting the inside of the enclosure. I modeled my Dayton RSS265HO in about .3 cu ft, and it actually didn't look too bad. If a spacer and some grinding can get that in there, I'm going to try that first, but I was looking for options.

Jay


----------



## HondAudio

Is this thing done yet??? I'm expecting a $20.00 shipment of inch-long 4-40 machine screws and undersized hex nuts, because those are the only fasteners that fit my Dayton 3" midranges


----------



## jtaudioacc

HondAudio said:


> Is this thing done yet??? I'm expecting a $20.00 shipment of inch-long 4-40 machine screws and undersized hex nuts, because those are the only fasteners that fit my Dayton 3" midranges


there's a mc fadden dale around there. i know cause i stayed at the gold course down the street one time i was out there. all the hardware you could want. 

Mcfadden Maps


----------



## rton20s

Done? Done? Is anything on this site ever truly done? Well, other than the pro build logs. It is operational. It is scheduled for a new tune in a couple of weeks and then off to state finals on the 21st. 

I haven't really had much time to do any more work on the doors. I'm not sure I'll have the MLV in place for state finals, but I'll probably pull the door panels and install some CLD before then. Oh, and my dash mat came in. It just hasn't been put in the car yet. 

Oh, the one other thing I did was adjust my gain on the subwoofer amp. I had previously had the vehicle tuned so that having the sub at -1 dB on the HU was where I was set for competitions. I made a rough adjustment with RTA so this tune was at -4 dB. When the wife explains to you that she is open to a system in her new car but she wants bass, unlike your car, you know it is time to make some adjustments.


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> there's a mc fadden dale around there. i know cause i stayed at the gold course down the street one time i was out there. all the hardware you could want.
> 
> Mcfadden Maps


If OSH doesn't have it around here, I order from McMaster and wait.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> If OSH doesn't have it around here, I order from McMaster and wait.


That's where I order from.


----------



## rton20s

Not really audio related, but I got some new wheels and tires put on yesterday. Now we're ready to do some driving to the upcoming comps/State Finals. First test is a 400+ mile round trip over the grapevine later today.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Looks badass. Where was that second pic taken, I recognize the building but cant for the life of me place it.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks. It is the Quad Knopf building that they just finished a few months ago. It is located on the corner of Burke and Main, where the old Valley's Gym used to be. 

The first one is on top of the parking garage North of the hospital. Hospital security just drove past and waved once he saw the tripod setup. Downtown Visalia securty came by on their bicycles though and told me I wasn't really allowed to be up there. They were cool about it, but said it was a city ordinance. 

I'm sure security was getting a kick out of watching me up there on surveillance video. All of the lighting is dual brightness LEDs with motion sensors. If I sat still long enough away from the lights they would dim. So there were several times I would run back and forth between a the two different light sources to get the lighting where I did and didn't want it.


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## SQLnovice

Nice clean looking ride. That's how I like em.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol I knew I recognized it. Just forgot where.

Lol on the security, a guy at work got caught by the cops cheating on his wife up there. Im sure security saw it and called it in. Its a nice structure though. I think they re-did those lights this year, they have the same kind in the alley and they were putting those on in the winter.


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## JayinMI

Are those Rotiforms? Looks good.

Jay


----------



## rton20s

No, not Brotiforms.  Thanks. 

They are Whistler KR1, in chrome. An inexpensive cast wheel in 16x8. ESM just started selling the same wheel under their brand the day after I got these installed. Avid1 also just released a similar wheel with fake rivets. Reps... reps everywhere. But considering Rotiforms are reps of CCWs and those are just a design revision of old school Enkei Saw Blades, it doesn't bother me a bit.


----------



## JayinMI

I don't have anything against replica rims. The first rims on my current car were Spoon 388 replicas (Drag DR-23's...comparable to Rota Slipstreams) and now I have Varrstoen T1's (which are Volks TE37 replicas, 16x8 +25)

I know Rotiforms are big in the VW community right now, seems like everyone has them. I'm glad I have a $500 set of rims, instead of a $3000 set of rims considering that 3 of them have been curbed now.

Jay


----------



## edzyy

Rep's aren't bad as long as they're made just as good.


----------



## JayinMI

The reps I have are cast, not forged like the original, but they meet stringent German standards, so I'm not worried about quality. And for the price, I could by 6 SETS of reps intead of 1 SET of the real thing.

Jay


----------



## rton20s

Inexpensive wheels can actually be just as high quality as extremely expensive wheels. I've seen some if the most expensive wheels out there fail, miserably. The only thing we really have to go by are the various national and international standards. SAE, TUV, ISO, JWL... some wheels are tested and meet these standards and some aren't or don't. It is some indication of quality, but absolutely no guarantee. 

And there is actually some pretty impressive wheel tech making it's way into less expensive wheels. Konig is now producing flow formed wheels under their Konig and Advanti brand names due to a licensing deal with Enkei. They have some very light very strong offerings now at crazy low prices compared to other similar wheels. I've actually been looking at one of the Advanti wheels for my wife's car. 

Honestly, the Whistlers are a bit of roll of the dice. When I thought I might have fitment issues due to a confused tire tech, Whistler was very responsive. They responded by phone within an hour to a web form email. They were even open to me milling off 5mm of the center to increase the offset if necessary. 

And like Jay, at this point in my car's life it just isn't worth investing in really expensive wheels. I really nice set of 2 or 3 piece forged wheels Could easily exceed the value of the car.


----------



## jnchantler

HondAudio said:


> Ouch... I gave up on those brass inserts a long time ago - so many broken ones
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer threaded inserts like this instead


I only broke 4 inserts and 7 screws today while putting in 8 brass inserts so I don't know what your talking about. Lol.


----------



## rton20s

I was fortunate to be able to make the drive down to Torrance this weekend and have Jim (aka BigRed) tune my system on Friday evening. Some of the limitation of the DEH-80PRS when compared to a stand alone DSP were quickly made apparent. However, Jim plowed through it and I think he did an outstanding job wringing every last drop of SQ out of my current build. 

Since I did have a bit of a drive home, I was able to listen to the revised tune for a while. I already let Jim know that it had me grinning from ear to ear. The revised tweeter location with Jim's tune was a big improvement. Width is far better than before. This was the first time I've ever had music in my car make me look out the side windows to see where the source was coming from. 

Stage height and focus also seemed much better. I wasn't in the "optimal" seating position driving home, but I could still tell a difference. Male vocals had a tendency to drop down a bit in the past, but seem to stay put up high now. And I didn't notice any wandering around the stage by artists like I had previously. 

The only thing I'll be doing with the car between now and finals is possibly a bit more deadening on the door panels. That will all depend on how much time I can find between now and when I leave for Finals on Friday. 

I'm hoping to give Chris (aka TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL) a demo this evening to get his impressions. He is probably the only other person to hear my car in just about every stage of development. I'm interested to hear his thoughts, and possibly his wife's. 

And lastly, I want to thank Papasin and his daughter for hanging out while Jim was working on the tune. It is always great to see you guys and the family looks forward to hanging out at Finals.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> And lastly, I want to thank Papasin and his daughter for hanging out while Jim was working on the tune. It is always great to see you guys and the family looks forward to hanging out at Finals.




It was cool to have dinner, hang out, and just chat. Look forward to seeing your wife and son at state finals. I think there'll be quite a few families there so it's going to be great in many aspects!


----------



## HondAudio

I finished my semi-custom mounting brackets this past weekend 

I based them off prior designs I've experimented with, and I cut them from some ABS plastic speaker adapters I got from Crutchfield:

Universal 4"x6" to 3-1/2" Brackets

Here's what I came up with:










The brackets are about 1/8" thick. My Dayton drivers attach just fine with low-head machine screws and nylock nuts, but I'd like to make the mounting area thicker. Is there a way to 'glue' MDF to this ABS plastic, so I can use threaded inserts instead? :surprised:


----------



## rton20s

That might be a good question to post in the Fabrication section. I am sure some of the professional installers can give you some feedback.


----------



## Golden Ear

Any idea how you did on Sunday?


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> Any idea how you did on Sunday?


No idea. Well, other than not as well as I'd hoped. We had to leave early as well. I'm just waiting patiently while scores get sent in to MECA and the score sheets get mailed off to competitors who couldn't make it until the end. 

I already feel like tweaking a bunch of stuff, but have avoided even doing critical listening because I want to wait until I have the score sheets in hand.


----------



## rton20s

I'm still awaiting my scorecards and official results from MECA State Finals. I will post up my full experience and commentary once I have that in hand and can post photos of the scorecards. 

Until then, this guy showed up for sale around the corner from my house. The wife and I are both really tempted, but it would mean selling one of our cars and using it as a daily. What a marketing piece for the ice cream though! 

1963 Ford Falcon Wagon
260 V8, Automatic
$6500 or Trade for Model A or T
Originally sold locally back in 63


The car looks to be an all there, survivor, driver. It is clean inside and out with red interior. I'm going to try and stop and take a look at it this afternoon when I have more time. I was rushing to get home last night and only had time to take a couple of pics. And yes, a thorough inspection will be done to see what kind of system can be installed without completely molesting the interior.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Should have HUGE kicks. Could do that without cutting into the doors or dash.


----------



## rton20s

Yeah, I think the kicks would be plenty big. And there are aftermarket replacement kick panels in both stock replacement and 6 1/2" speaker fitment so I could build whatever I want without destroying the original. This is KEY.  

I've already got visions of a lower stance, chrome smoothies with bullet caps and wide whites racing through my head.


----------



## BigRed

Scores will be up late tonight. System was down when I tried a couple days ago


----------



## rton20s

No problem Jim. Not like I'll be scrambling to adjust for the next competition. Any idea how soon you'll mail off the score sheets? I don't have any plans to be back down South anytime soon, otherwise I would just go pick them up.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Looking forward to seeing how well you did. It was the best I have ever heard the last time you stopped by.


----------



## BigRed

I'm emailing scores. Go green


----------



## Golden Ear

That Falcon looks CLEAN. Wouldn't be a bad daily driver


----------



## rton20s

I rest drove the car last night. It's a two knee car and the guy selling it is an 84 year old retired preacher. It is a great car, but we just couldn't use it as a daily without a pretty significant investment beyond the purchase price. If we had the extra scratch right now, it would make a great weekend car.


----------



## rton20s

I figured now that I had my scoresheets back from the California MECA State Finals I can post up about my experience. If you hadn't seen any of the other threads commenting on the event, it was truly great. The organizers, hosts, judges and competitors all worked together to make everything run as smoothly as possible. Despite this the awesome turnout of 25 SQ cars meant the even went until midnight! The family and I didn't last that long. We cut out around 8:00 pm. 

As far as the system goes, Jim did a great job of getting everything dialed in. It was apparent during his tuning that we were definitely bumping up against the limits of what the DEH-80PRS is capable of. Despite that, I think the car did pretty well considering the stiff competition it had at State. 

Before getting into the scorecards, there are a couple of things I need to make clear. The car has been deadened, but not to the extent that I would like. The MLV isn't done and neither has the CCF. I could also use some CLD on the door panels. I planned to get this done before the competition, but as has become common, life gets in the way. 

I also made a couple of rookie mistakes on the day of the event. I keep some coilover tools in my glove box and the have a tendancy to make noise. I forgot to take them out for judging, and who knows if that became a distraction. Even worse, I had pulled my rear shock covers to adjust my rear shocks the day before and forgot to put them back on. Not really a big deal, except I left them laying on top of the enclosure! I suppose there might be easier ways to introduce rattles at the back of the car, but I'm not sure what they might be. 

On to the score cards. I've cropped and edited these so that my information and the judges names are not included. It is interesting to see just how much of a spread there can be between three different sets of ears only a few minutes apart. You can also see that some judges provide more feedback than others. 

I guess my best way to go about this will just to break down each item look for consistent comments to see where I can best improve. 

*Tonality*

Low Frequencies - Mixed comments
Lower Midrange Frequencies - Mixed (Vibration Issues)
Midrange Frequencies - Mixed comments
High Frequencies - Mostly complimentary, possible need for top end boost

*Realism*

Dynamics/Impact - Mixed comments
Linearity (80-90 dB) - Linearity issues with bass/midbass
Linearity (95-115 dB) - Linearity issues with bass/midbass
Ambiance - "Sounds 'small'" is the only comment
Realism/Believability - Mids/Midbass good

*Stage*

Width - At pillars
Depth - Lacking, some rear bass
Height - Slight rainbow, midbass pulls down

*Placement*

Center - Centered, but needs more focus
Left - Solid
Right - Jumbled
Left-Center - Good
Right-Center - Crowded

*General Comments*
Seems like I need to get the mids and tweeters to stage in the same location. This might help get the "focus" I need with the center. 




























Based on these, I think I need to focus primarily on linearity on the bottom end (this could be a function of my subwoofer and amp combo) as well as staging. I'm sure moving the tweeters to the sails reduced some of my depth, but helped with width and placement. Hopefully moving to a 3-way with mids in the dash and tweeters in the sails will strike the right balance between depth and width/placement. 

For now, no major changes other then getting that deadening done. Hopefully before the 2015 season begins and can step up to a stand alone dsp and a 3 way installation.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I'm still awaiting my scorecards and official results from MECA State Finals. I will post up my full experience and commentary once I have that in hand and can post photos of the scorecards.
> 
> Until then, this guy showed up for sale around the corner from my house. The wife and I are both really tempted, but it would mean selling one of our cars and using it as a daily. What a marketing piece for the ice cream though!
> 
> 1963 Ford Falcon Wagon
> 260 V8, Automatic
> $6500 or Trade for Model A or T
> Originally sold locally back in 63
> 
> 
> The car looks to be an all there, survivor, driver. It is clean inside and out with red interior. I'm going to try and stop and take a look at it this afternoon when I have more time. I was rushing to get home last night and only had time to take a couple of pics. And yes, a thorough inspection will be done to see what kind of system can be installed without completely molesting the interior.


That's the Ghostbustersmobile, isn't it?


----------



## captainobvious

I believe you said it about limits with the 80PRS. When you find that you have center being mish-mashed with right/left or center moving at different points, etc, a good thing to look at is the frequency response of the left side vs the right side. Matching them up as close as possible will help to minimize that.

Nice job at the comp


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> That's the Ghostbustersmobile, isn't it?


No, that would be a caddy hearse. It does look sweet driving though. I saw the owner driving it a couple times on Saturday. 



captainobvious said:


> I believe you said it about limits with the 80PRS. When you find that you have center being mish-mashed with right/left or center moving at different points, etc, a good thing to look at is the frequency response of the left side vs the right side. Matching them up as close as possible will help to minimize that.
> 
> Nice job at the comp


Thanks. 

We had worked quite a bit on L/R EQ, but I think the 16 band graphic EQ left some holes that still needed to be addressed. But, I am happy with the car given the equipment and Jim did an outstanding job tuning. There is no way it would have done as well as it did without him. 

I'm hoping to pull the funds together over the next few months to step up to a stand alone DSP and 3-way + sub setup.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> We had worked quite a bit on L/R EQ, but I think the 16 band graphic EQ left some holes that still needed to be addressed. But, I am happy with the car given the equipment and Jim did an outstanding job tuning. There is no way it would have done as well as it did without him.
> 
> I'm hoping to pull the funds together over the next few months to step up to a stand alone DSP and 3-way + sub setup.


Glad to hear that your xB did so well! Keep in mind that SQ judging is entirely subjective - what sounds one way to one judge will sound entirely different to somebody else... because of psychoacoustics :surprised:

I have yet to see how the 3-band parametric EQ in my head unit works out for me, once all the drivers are installed. As it is, the crossover functions are going to force me to use the controls on the amplifier itself to set the appropriate low-pass for the midbass


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Glad to hear that your xB did so well! Keep in mind that SQ judging is entirely subjective - what sounds one way to one judge will sound entirely different to somebody else... because of psychoacoustics :surprised:


Absolutely. I know they are all listening for accuracy in terms of reproduction and placement, but everyone's ears are different. I like having multiple judges as it seems to give a better overall indication of where the system stands. There are so many factors to consider, I wouldn't even want to attempt to enumerate them. 

I will note that one of the judges had previously given me my highest score to date (74.0) scored me lower this time around. To my ears, the car has only improved since that 74, but as I mentioned, I did make some foolish mistakes at Finals. I don't question his judgement in either case, and I feel the scores accurately reflect what he heard. Just an interesting observation, I guess. 



HondAudio said:


> I have yet to see how the 3-band parametric EQ in my head unit works out for me, once all the drivers are installed. As it is, the crossover functions are going to force me to use the controls on the amplifier itself to set the appropriate low-pass for the midbass


Which head unit are you using? I'll be doing some oddball stuff in my wife's xB if/when that thing ever gets done. 9 band parametric and time alignment from the Alpine with the front channels feeding the mids and the rear channels feeding the tweeters through bi-ampable passives off of a 5 channel amp.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Which head unit are you using? I'll be doing some oddball stuff in my wife's xB if/when that thing ever gets done. 9 band parametric and time alignment from the Alpine with the front channels feeding the mids and the rear channels feeding the tweeters through bi-ampable passives off of a 5 channel amp.


I have a Clarion DXZ785USB. The midrange crossover in 3-way mode won't low-pass below 630 Hz, so I'll have to use the built-in crossover on the JL XD600/6.


----------



## rton20s

I'm hoping to make some changes to the system soon. Though, that might be delayed just a bit. We're expecting our second child at the end of April. 

We're getting ourselves on an even tighter budget in preparation of known and potential expenses of a new baby. So, most any upgrade to the stereo will come from selling of other equipment and or "stuff" I have laying around.


----------



## Hoptologist

Congrats! 

If you were to make some changes to your system... which changes would you be changing? :ears:


----------



## rton20s

Hoptologist said:


> Congrats!
> 
> If you were to make some changes to your system... which changes would you be changing? :ears:


Thanks. Primarily, adding a stand alone DSP and adding a set of ~3" midranges in the dash.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Congrats. And good luck with future sales lol. That's where my audio budget is coming from right now too.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks.


----------



## Hoptologist

Is there something you want to tell us? :dunce:


----------



## rton20s

Yes. Buy these amps. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/168459-arc-audio-ks900-6-ks600-2-a.html#post2178576


----------



## rton20s




----------



## Hoptologist

Someone's about to have a 3-way...


----------



## JayinMI

Illusion 3" mid?

Jay


----------



## james2266

JayinMI said:


> Illusion 3" mid?
> 
> Jay


yes, details....


----------



## papasin

He hijacked it from a pallet.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I might be checking these out on friday.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> He hijacked it from a pallet.


lol - Wish I had the ability 



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I might be checking these out on friday.


Ah.... Once again. Anyone have more intimate details on this driver? TS parameters? Price? etc


----------



## Golden Ear

Saweeeeettt!!


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> Saweeeeettt!!


Like ice cream. 



Hoptologist said:


> Someone's about to have a 3-way...


Maybe...



JayinMI said:


> Illusion 3" mid?
> 
> Jay


Yes. Illusion C3.



james2266 said:


> yes, details....


Don't have a lot of info, just the drivers and I haven't installed them yet. What did you want to know?


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> He hijacked it from a pallet.


In transit...











TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I might be checking these out on friday.


Maybe it would be worth it to hook up that P99? 



james2266 said:


> lol - Wish I had the ability
> 
> Ah.... Once again. Anyone have more intimate details on this driver? TS parameters? Price? etc


Not yet. I'm sure more info will be coming soon. Hopefully Jacob can chime in when he has details.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I think trying them out is almost a must lol.


----------



## cobb2819

Put them in and stop asking questions. Specs are not important when you have them in your possession, know you are going to run them, know the high pass crossover, know you are going to run them, have a processor and an RTA, and know you are going to run them.


----------



## papasin

^ ding ding ding.


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Put them in and stop asking questions. Specs are not important when you have them in your possession, know you are going to run them, know the high pass crossover, know you are going to run them, have a processor and an RTA, and know you are going to run them.


But what if I...? 

And when should I...?

And where would you...?

And other people...



Got it. Build the baffles, run the cables, drop 'em in and get to tuning. 



papasin said:


> ^ ding ding ding.


Hey now. Enough out of you.


----------



## james2266

cobb2819 said:


> Put them in and stop asking questions. Specs are not important when you have them in your possession, know you are going to run them, know the high pass crossover, know you are going to run them, have a processor and an RTA, and know you are going to run them.






rton20s said:


> But what if I...?
> 
> And when should I...?
> 
> And where would you...?
> 
> And other people...
> 
> 
> 
> Got it. Build the baffles, run the cables, drop 'em in and get to tuning.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey now. Enough out of you.


And these are $50 each? Doubt it. I am thinking probably at least 10x that much. Gonna take a fair amount of info for alot of us to shell out cash for replacements I would think. I wonder if there are any in Canada yet. Maybe I can get a listen at my local dealer but knowing here it will probably be a year and likely even then it will be a special order. Specs, freq. plots, measurements go a long way in convincing people that they have to have this one. For me personally, gonna take alot as I have AP 3 inch mids that seem to do very well for me. Yes, I gots all the tuning goodies and I agree an absolute must doesn't matter what drivers we talking about too.


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> Got it. Build the baffles, run the cables, drop 'em in and get to tuning.


Yup!!!


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


>


Little brother, say hello to big brother. 










The Carbon midrange line is no joke. I've run the C4 mids now since September...and for those that know me, that probably seems like an eternity. These are very solidly designed and engineered.


----------



## james2266

papasin said:


> Little brother, say hello to big brother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Carbon midrange line is no joke. I've run the C4 mids now since September...and for those that know me, that probably seems like an eternity. These are very solidly designed and engineered.


No argument there at all. My c8 are the best midbass I have heard to date and as you know I've heard some of the best out there too. As this 3 inch is brand new to the game, I think people want to know a little about it; that's all. Looks great but I, personally, need more.:blush:


----------



## DLO13

just read the entire build thread. Every single post. 

Looking forward to seeing how the 3s work out for you.


----------



## papasin

james2266 said:


> No argument there at all. My c8 are the best midbass I have heard to date and as you know I've heard some of the best out there too. As this 3 inch is brand new to the game, I think people want to know a little about it; that's all. Looks great but I, personally, need more.:blush:


I'll bite. You want more? Ok, here's more. 










There's a C3CX too! 

In all seriousness, I can appreciate manufacturers publishing T/S parameters, etc. and Illusion is no exception. If you look at their website, they have published it for every single one of their drivers and I imagine it's just a matter of time that the website will get updated to include them for the C3s (and C3CXs). But as you probably can agree, T/S is only part of the story and won't dictate entirely how it's going to sound.

I spoke to the designer briefly at CES when he was describing the design (and engineering) of the C3s. I don't remember all the details, but one thing that stuck out was (IIRC) it has the same xmax as big brother and the C3s (again IIRC) possibly has dual faraday rings. 

Also, IME, tuning the C4s in MY pillars was quite straightforward, and has given my car one of the most robust midrange compared to any previous incarnations in MY car...FWIW.


----------



## james2266

Geez, thanks Richard. A 3 inch co-ax now too? And it is completely round too. Hmm.... yet another possibility for my center channel. I already have a Morel IO4 for that but would be nice to have some symmetry in my midrange right across (if I do decide to get a c3 eventually). i will keep checking the website for more info I guess and hope the wife can have some luck getting another job soon. Nothing happening at all until that happens. Recessions suck!


----------



## Bluenote

Richard do you know the mounting depth on the CXC3?


----------



## rton20s

I don't know that these will be installed and working too soon, but I will be working toward that end. If baby #2 shows up (due in 2.5 weeks) that could put a damper on things as well. I will say that these things feel "beefy" compared to my stock drivers and the stamped basket Sundown SA-2.75FRs. For now, a couple more pics of the C3. 

*Front and Back* (Yes, I digitally smudged the serial#)
Note the basket extends all the way to the base of the motor, unlike the C4.









*The Side*
No spring terminals on the C3.









*Stock Driver Comparison* 
No problem for me with MECA Street compliance. 









*Depth Comparison* 
Significantly deeper, but when the OE connector is taken into account, not so much. These should have no issue dropping into my factory dash location.


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> Richard do you know the mounting depth on the CXC3?


Sorry, Thomas, I don't. The C3CX isn't mine. I borrowed that pic off JT's FB site. 

I believe it should be the same as the C3 though. Maybe Dustin has some calipers, before the website is updated?


----------



## subwoofery

rton20s said:


>


The basket looks quite similar to the Focal 3w2 driver 









Kelvin


----------



## Bluenote

papasin said:


> Sorry, Thomas, I don't. The C3CX isn't mine. I borrowed that pic off JT's FB site.
> 
> I believe it should be the same as the C3 though. Maybe Dustin has some calipers, before the website is updated?


No prob Richard! Thanks for sharing


----------



## papasin

Bluenote said:


> No prob Richard! Thanks for sharing



If you go to JT Audio Accessories' FB page, there are caliper measurements for the C3 (depth, OD, cutout diameter). He must be reading.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> If you go to JT Audio Accessories' FB page, there are caliper measurements for the C3 (depth, OD, cutout diameter). He must be reading.


Yep. I saw that this morning. I appreciate it because now I don't have to measure. His calipers are fancier than mine, too.


----------



## DLO13

rton20s said:


> Yep. I saw that this morning. I appreciate it because now I don't have to measure. His calipers are fancier than mine, too.


So are his kicks, and dash, and ipad install, and C12XL, and wiring. Heck, his C3s are prob fancier too. . JT is just FANCY.


----------



## papasin

It's JT's sail panels that rton is after. Now if he only could pay in quarts of ice cream.


----------



## rton20s

DLO13 said:


> So are his kicks, and dash, and ipad install, and C12XL, and wiring. Heck, his C3s are prob fancier too. . JT is just FANCY.














papasin said:


> It's JT's sail panels that rton is after. Now if he only could pay in quarts of ice cream.


Now, whatever gave you that idea? 

As I've said, I'm just waiting patiently for when he decides it is time to move on from the xB and wants to sell off all of his custom xB specific parts.


----------



## Bluenote

JT said mounting depth was a little less than 1.5".


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> As I've said, I'm just waiting patiently for when he decides it is time to move on from the xB and wants to sell off all of his custom xB specific parts.


Like his sails and dash pods??


----------



## DLO13

rton20s said:


> No work done tonight, but if did pick up the denim insulation. I think I probably got enough to take care of the hatch and the rear quarters. . If anyone is going to be in Fresno next weekend and needs some, just let me know.


How did this material end up working out for you? I am going to be pulling my car apart to CLD, CCF and MLV everything, but the hatch area has a lot of gaps and areas that i'm sure could benefit from a material like this... What did you think?


----------



## rton20s

Bluenote said:


> JT said mounting depth was a little less than 1.5".


I'd guess around 1.465". 












cobb2819 said:


> Like his sails and dash pods??


And kicks.



DLO13 said:


> How did this material end up working out for you? I am going to be pulling my car apart to CLD, CCF and MLV everything, but the hatch area has a lot of gaps and areas that i'm sure could benefit from a material like this... What did you think?


It has worked well in the hatch, but the added weight of that and the CLD is _almost_ too much for the struts. I wouldn't dare use the stuff in doors with operating windows, but for the hatch which is pretty well sealed from the exterior, it has been great. If you need some, let me know and I can bring a section with me to the next GTG or comp we both attend.


----------



## DLO13

rton20s said:


> It has worked well in the hatch, but the added weight of that and the CLD is _almost_ too much for the struts. I wouldn't dare use the stuff in doors with operating windows, but for the hatch which is pretty well sealed from the exterior, it has been great. If you need some, let me know and I can bring a section with me to the next GTG or comp we both attend.


LOL. My prius is bottoming out with my roll of MLV and all the CLD tiles and tools. I have to keep my tires at max inflation or as soon as i have a passenger in the car, I start scraping speedbumps and drive ways. 

I was thinking that it could work well in the hatch area, and sandwiched between the door panel. 

JT's XB is still the most solid sounding car I have been in. He demoed the C12XL for me and gave it some power... with that and the kicks, my hair was vibrating, but the car stayed solid. I would love to have that.


----------



## HondAudio

Hurry up and stick 'em in!


----------



## rton20s

I was planning to build the baffles today, but just had too many other things going on. Hopefully tomorrow afternoon or evening I can get some more work done.


----------



## jtaudioacc




----------



## Golden Ear

jtaudioacc said:


>


Nice punchy midrange


----------



## Bluenote

Sounds good JT!


----------



## rton20s

Good deal! Somehow I'm not surprised you got them in and playing before me. 

Modular pod baffles for the win!


----------



## rton20s

OK, so I know I have been slacking but I found some time on Saturday to get some work done with the assistance of my 3 year old. I cut some simple baffles for the C3s only to find out that the surround would actually touch the OE grills. Because of this I modified the baffle design to allow for a more "flush" mounting of the driver and better clearance from the OE grills. These aren't mounted up yet as I still need to pre-drill the mounting holes for the driver and resin coat the entire baffle. 

I'll tell you, after putting these together I could definitely see the value in 3D printed pieces. If I were doing this for more than just personal use, I would probably already be doing some comparison shopping on 3D printers. As it is, these baffles will probably end up getting rebuilt in HDPE/Cutting boards, or 3D printed if I can find a reasonably priced printing service. 

On to the few pics...

This is what I ended up with in order to get the clearance I needed. The material is 5mm (0.197") wood paneling from Home Depot.









And those rings? Nope, I don't have a router table, but I do have the circle cutting jig for my dremel, some clamps and my shop light stand. :idea3:




































Again, the material isn't the best, but it cleaned up ok, and it will get resined. This is where I had to leave it for the day. 









Hopefully I can find the time this week and this weekend to get the baffles finished, get the C3s installed, run my new speaker wire and RCA cables and swap out the head unit. Speaking of which, I want to say a huge thank you to Chris (TooStubborn2Fail) for letting me borrow his P99 temporarily to get the 3 way setup working. Ultimately I plan to run a 6to8, but need some Scion owners to come through and buy the parts I have for sale.


----------



## papasin

Can't wait to hear it!


----------



## rton20s

Same here. 

Hopefully you get to hear something other than a MECA disc on it!


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Same here.
> 
> Hopefully you get to hear something other than a MECA disc on it!



Lol. I haven't been asked to judge, but I guess that's not out of the question. I plan on competing at Autofest for sure though, and I imagine we should have plenty of time then with the load in requirements.


----------



## HondAudio

Oh man... I did so many measurements to try to figure out what geometric shapes would fit in those dash openings. I ended up modifying some plastic mounts from Crutchfield. It remains to be seen how well they hold up.


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Oh man... I did so many measurements to try to figure out what geometric shapes would fit in those dash openings. I ended up modifying some plastic mounts from Crutchfield. It remains to be seen how well they hold up.


I plan to swing by HD or Lowes tonight to pick up the hardware I am going to need tonight to install the C3s into the baffle as well as some resin. All I had time to do last night was mark my drill holes since I was on baby duty while the wife ran errands. 

After doing all of this, I think I am going to create a 3d Model of a baffle that will match the contours as close as possible. I've casually looked into local 3D printing services and there is a guy local to me that will create 3d prints with a Solidoodle 3 for $0.25 per cm^3 (0.1mm layer resolution, 8" x 8" x 8" capacity). Just running some rough numbers, I might be able to get the dash baffles for the C3s done for about $40 pair.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

rton20s said:


> I plan to swing by HD or Lowes tonight to pick up the hardware I am going to need tonight to install the C3s into the baffle as well as some resin. All I had time to do last night was mark my drill holes since I was on baby duty while the wife ran errands.
> 
> After doing all of this, I think I am going to create a 3d Model of a baffle that will match the contours as close as possible. I've casually looked into local 3D printing services and there is a guy local to me that will create 3d prints with a Solidoodle 3 for $0.25 per cm^3 (0.1mm layer resolution, 8" x 8" x 8" capacity). Just running some rough numbers, I might be able to get the dash baffles for the C3s done for about $40 pair.


I'm gonna text you about the 3d printing tomorrow. I have something that would be perfect for that, and at that cost, it may be worth it rather than trying to salvage the fiberglass version I built.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm gonna text you about the 3d printing tomorrow. I have something that would be perfect for that, and at that cost, it may be worth it rather than trying to salvage the fiberglass version I built.


Sounds good. I haven't actually talked to the guy yet. Just found him on a website that included his rate. Heck, for the cost of a Solidoodle Press or the (likely) closest competitor, the Robo R1 you could probably make your money back on the purchase cost by doing odd jobs for people the way this guy has set himself up.


----------



## rton20s

I had just a little time this afternoon so I got the baffles drilled, test fitted the drivers and then got them resined. They are drying now. I probably spent almost as much time trying to get the stupid resin off my hands (out of proper disposable gloves) as I did everything else. 

I'll probably end up shooting the at least the top of the baffles with some black paint or bedliner so they aren't as visible, once installed. Tomorrow I'm going to try and get all of the speaker wires and RCAs ran. Once that is done, dropping in the speakers and installing the head unit should go fairly quickly. Then the tuning.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I plan to swing by HD or Lowes tonight to pick up the hardware I am going to need tonight to install the C3s into the baffle as well as some resin. All I had time to do last night was mark my drill holes since I was on baby duty while the wife ran errands.
> 
> After doing all of this, I think I am going to create a 3d Model of a baffle that will match the contours as close as possible. I've casually looked into local 3D printing services and there is a guy local to me that will create 3d prints with a Solidoodle 3 for $0.25 per cm^3 (0.1mm layer resolution, 8" x 8" x 8" capacity). Just running some rough numbers, I might be able to get the dash baffles for the C3s done for about $40 pair.


I would be very interested in a pair of those, as well... maybe with a solid center area that I could mill out myself 

...or maybe just a graphic with all the dimensions


----------



## rton20s

"Just drop some threes into the stock location," they said.

"It will be easy," they said.

I got a couple hours of work in tonight with several more nights of work on the horizon. Kind of tough with a new born, but got to spend a little time with the family before heading out to the garage. Due to the routing of my existing speaker wires and RCA cables, I didn't have much choice but to do this...








(Sorry for the low quality.)

Good thing I don't have to drive the car to an 8:00 am meeting with one of our biggest clients tomorrow. Oh wait, I do. :worried:

So, I got the car gutted and I routed the new RCAs from the dash to the rear hatch. I had to "borrow" some Audison RCAs that I had purchased for my wife's car. They were _just_ long enough to reach the subwoofer amp. Good thing I wanted to keep all the same Knu RCAs on the six channel. 

In order to drive the car tomorrow I got all four seats bolted back in, but the carpet and plastic trim panels are all stacked up in the garage. Before coming inside for the night I test fit the baffles in the car. I had already pulled the car outside and didn't have good light, but it is apparent that the resin coating on the passenger side will need to be sanded down a bit to get it to sit down flush. I'll take a closer look tomorrow when I have some daylight. 

Back inside, I decided to slide the borrowed P99 in place of the 80PRS. That is set and ready to go, but I didn't want to put it into the car yet. I still need access to the dash over the next day or two in order to run the new speaker wires for the mids. I'm hoping to have everything buttoned up by Thursday evening so I can focus on getting it tuned on Friday night. 

I think the 80PRS might be a little jealous...


----------



## teldzc1

That p99 is so nice. I mostly listen to ipod and have a dsp so not much point in getting one, but the wow factor is strong with the p99.


----------



## damonryoung

rton20s said:


> Good thing I don't have to drive the car to an 8:00 am meeting with one of our biggest clients tomorrow. Oh wait, I do. :worried:



"Here at XYZ Architects, we pursue many forms of design to ensure that we succeed no matter the challenge thrown our way." 


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## quality_sound

teldzc1 said:


> That p99 is so nice. I mostly listen to ipod and have a dsp so not much point in getting one, but the wow factor is strong with the p99.


The iPod interface is one of the P99's strongest assets, bested only by it's killer built-in processing suite.


----------



## rton20s

teldzc1 said:


> That p99 is so nice. I mostly listen to ipod and have a dsp so not much point in getting one, but the wow factor is strong with the p99.


It is. And I am very thankful that Chris (TooStubborn2Fail) has been generous enough to let me borrow it for a short time.



DRTHJTA said:


> "Here at XYZ Architects, we pursue many forms of design to ensure that we succeed no matter the challenge thrown our way."


Luckily, none of the clients saw the inside of the car. And fortunately, we'll be taking the boss's Prius to the meeting we have with another client at 5. 



quality_sound said:


> The iPod interface is one of the P99's strongest assets, bested only by it's killer built-in processing suite.


Other than some demo time in other people's rides, I've never really messed with the P99. This will be a first for me. One day should be plenty of time to learn the interface, master the tuning options, get a killer tune dialed in and be competitive for my MECA event on Saturday, right?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, let me know if you need any help. 

Lol, the 80 looks like the family dog that just had a puppy brought home in that pic.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, let me know if you need any help.
> 
> Lol, the 80 looks like the family dog that just had a puppy brought home in that pic.


Depending on how things go, I might be shooting you a text on Thursday or Friday. It would be nice to swing by your place on Friday to at least set gains with the O-Scope. I thought I would have tonight to get a lot more work done, but it looks like the day job will be running late. 

Did you ever use the remote when you were tuning or operating the P99?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

All the time, found it way more convenient. I almost never used the actual face controls.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Did you ever use the remote when you were tuning or operating the P99?





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> All the time, found it way more convenient. I almost never used the actual face controls.


Beep beep.  :laugh:


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Beep beep.  :laugh:


Who got the keys to Papasin's jeep?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Lol, I did hate the beep beep, but I usually just kept it on the louder end of things.


----------



## rton20s

Tuesday was a long day at work, so I took the evening off. I got back to it again tonight. Not a whole lot to show, but I did take one quick pic. 

So I got the speaker wire run from the dash location to the amp. The wire's are all now connected to the amp and all gains have been reset to minimum and all amp settings have been double checked in preparation for the new head unit. 

The new speaker wire has been secured along the exhaust tunnel with CLD the same way the runs of for the tweeter and mid-bass had been. I still need to secure the wires under the dash with zip ties and attach the spade terminals. 

I also had to do a little more trim work to the baffles to get them to fit correctly. After I shut it down in the garage, I wrapped up the night at the kitchen counter installing the C3s into the baffles. I do still plan to apply foam to the back side of the factory grill to help direct the sound. 

My plan is to get everything operational tomorrow evening and once tested and confirmed to work with some baseline crossovers, I will button the interior back up. I may also have a short day at work tomorrow. If that is the case, I'll probably spend the greater part of the day getting everything wrapped up. That leaves me Friday to make sure my gains are set properly and getting something resembling a decent tune in place for the MECA comp on Saturday. 

And finally, my only photo from today. Here are the C3s installed in the baffles next to the P99 ready to go into the dash.


----------



## rton20s

It's alive! ...mostly.

I finally called it quits around 1:30 this morning. The last hour of that was spent at the kitchen counter cutting and attaching the foam to the backside of the dash speaker grills. Before heading inside I finished up the speaker wiring, installed the C3s and baffles into the dash, installed the P99, set the gains by ear and set the time alignment by tape measure. Tonight I'll need to pull the seats again so that I can reinstall carpet and trim pieces. After that, I'll try and get some semblance of a tune for the MECA show tomorrow. 

I haven't listened to any music yet, but my morning routine is to listen to talk radio on my 10 minute drive to work. Without any amplitude, phase or EQ work, even on talk radio the stage is significantly higher. And surprisingly, fairly well focused. We'll see how bad I can screw that up with a "tune." 

The P99 and C3s are installed. You can see at the bottom left that the carpet and trim panels still need to go back in.









The OCF trimmed and attached to the back side of the OE grills. Hopefully this will help with early reflections.


----------



## damonryoung

Sweet! Looking forward to hearing it next weekend!


----------



## rton20s

Thanks. I'm looking forward to hearing yours as well. I've been really curious about that IB install.

I'm hoping to have time next week to make some more improvements to the car. So, it should be better next weekend than it will be for tomorrows comp.


----------



## Golden Ear

You're just in time to kick some butt in Fresno tomorrow


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> You're just in time to kick some butt in Fresno tomorrow


Ha, we'll see about that. I'm pretty sure Aubrey will be there. I'm not sure who else in my class might show up. I don't know if Mike or Meredith will want to make the drive into the valley heat. And I'll probably have at least a one week reprieve from having to face off against Damon and that new monster subwoofer.


----------



## damonryoung

rton20s said:


> Ha, we'll see about that. I'm pretty sure Aubrey will be there. I'm not sure who else in my class might show up. I don't know if Mike or Meredith will want to make the drive into the valley heat. And I'll probably have at least a one week reprieve from having to face off against Damon and that new monster subwoofer.


I've got plenty of other things that the subwoofer won't make up for at this point...


----------



## papasin

Maybe I should put the truck in street. Sounds like that is where all the fun is.


----------



## rton20s

DRTHJTA said:


> I've got plenty of other things that the subwoofer won't make up for at this point...


Well, since my 6.5s are still handling my midbass, I don't think my door rattles are going to be any better than they were when I was running 2 way. 

I've been thinking about just running AutoTA and EQ for tomorrow's comp. That would provide me a baseline and I can see how well it could do. This would also allow me at least one night off to spend with my family after this stressful week. And not completely off. The interior still has to go in before I could even run the auto tuning.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Maybe I should put the truck in street. Sounds like fun.


Do it! I'm not trying to, nor will I be able to hit 40 points this year anyway. At least not without some serious travel time (likely out of state) and getting some strong podium finishes.


----------



## peter12321a

Looks really hopefully I will have something like this soon


----------



## rton20s

peter12321a said:


> Looks really hopefully I will have something like this soon


Just to be clear, I have these very near my bed and I am a light sleeper.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Do it! I'm not trying to, nor will I be able to hit 40 points this year anyway. At least not without some serious travel time (likely out of state) and getting some strong podium finishes.



Lol. I think street and extreme in CA are as stacked as modified. To me, that's great news in so much as the resurgence of quality sq vehicles in the lanes. Still up in the air if I'll be able to swing by tomorrow Dustin, but I'd love to take a listen and offer any help if I am able.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Lol. I think street and extreme in CA are as stacked as modified. To me, that's great news in so much as the resurgence of quality sq vehicles in the lanes. Still up in the air if I'll be able to swing by tomorrow Dustin, but I'd love to take a listen and offer any help if I am able.


Understood about being able to swing by. It is exciting to see so many people competing. I'd much rather go home with a second or third (or nothing at all) and have competition than go home with a first place trophy be default because I was the only guy who showed up.


----------



## damonryoung

rton20s said:


> Do it! I'm not trying to, nor will I be able to hit 40 points this year anyway. At least not without some serious travel time (likely out of state) and getting some strong podium finishes.


Just gotta get those 5 points to make it to state...


----------



## Golden Ear

I have that exact shotgun pictured above. What is that revolver, a Colt Peacemaker? I want a silver one real bad. Definitely my next gun purchase.

Ok, derail almost over


----------



## rton20s

The revolver is a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Magnum. A birthday gift a few years back from my father in law.


----------



## Golden Ear

.44mag sweet!


----------



## rton20s

So much for auto tune. 

We'll see how well my completely exhausted brain worked tonight this morning. Up in less than 5 hours to head to the comp. :worried:


----------



## Hoptologist

Good luck today Dustin. I don't think I'll be able to swing by this time though, unless it's still going on after 3. Will be checking out a bunch of houses today with my gf. Our current lease is up at the end of the month and she wants a Corgi, so it looks like apartment life is over.


----------



## rton20s

I had a big write up on my phone earlier and when I attempted to link a picture it crashed the page and I lost it, so here it goes again...

First, to my comment about auto tune. For some reason it just would not work in my car. It would error out on the subwoofer testing and would not proceed. With no other choice, I decided to dive head first into a tune which I did not have planned. 

I spent 4 hours on Friday night doing my best with limited tools (Dayton IMM-6, AudioTools for iOS and my ears) trying to get everything level matched, time aligned and EQ'd. Keep in mind, I am still _very_ green when it comes to tuning. I finally called it quits at 2:00 am without ever really having a chance to just sit back and listen to how the new install sounded. When I was done, I was a mess and was sweating as bad as when I've run 1/2 marathons in the past. Sitting in a sealed up car inside a sealed up garage in June in Central California for 4 hours is like sitting in an oven inside another oven. 

My first real chance to just listen was on the drive up to the MECA comp in Fresno the next morning. I was pleasantly surprised with what I was hearing, but the drive definitely reminded me how much I still need to work on deadening, especially MLV, for road noise. 

At the comp Papasin was kind enough to lend his ears and tuning skills to help work out some time alignment and level level matching issues to get the stage better centered and more focused. Thanks again for all of your help Richard! I must say that with Richard's help that I believe that this is the best my car has ever sounded. 

I think the finer tuning capabilities of the DEX-P99RS and the addition of the Illusion C3s has truly brought my car into a true Street car rather than a Stock car failing at an attempt to punch above its weight. I am also very impressed with the C3s, even in their less than optimal installation (stock dash location, firing into the glass through OE grills) in my car. After Papasin's cleaning up of ham-fisted tuning, they blend very well with my 6.5" Carbon midbasses and 1" BeCu tweeters. I'm currently crossing them at 315 Hz - 2.5 kHz, both @ 24 dB/octave. 

The stage is much higher than it has ever been, pretty well focused, with some nice width. There is definitely still some work to do on the tune, and as I mentioned previously on the deadening. I hope to find some time this week to get some of that work done before the competition next weekend. 

And in closing some "thank yous"... Chris for generously loaning my his P99, Richard for all of his advice and help in tuning, Jacob and JT for working with me to get a set of C3s and their advice on setup, Kimo for running the MECA comp this weekend, Ryan and James for hosting at Audio Innovations and Brian for taking on the judging duties. 

And on the subject of the MECA comp, I am very happy with the results. Not only did I achieve my highest score ever, a 78, I also took the top spot in my class for the first time.


----------



## teldzc1

Congrats! Good luck with the tuning!


----------



## Golden Ear

Congrats Dustin!!!


----------



## papasin

Glad I was able to lend a hand Dustin. I just wish my better half was on hand and we had a bit more time to throw in a comprehensive tune on your vehicle. Linda and I typically spend a good portion of a couple days, and even then, we try to tune in small increments to give our ears a chance to rest. We give huge props and credit to Jim for teaching us (well, he taught Linda and I'm learning from her  ). Glad to be able to pay it forward a little, and hope we (or Jim) are able to assist in really dialing this thing in. The stock locations and the cabin in this vehicle with the Illusion drivers and a solid tune, I think this could easily be a low 80 point ride IMHO.

The addition of the Illusion C3s and the P99 is without a doubt in my mind the biggest contributing factor in the SQ jump in your car (more tuning will help too  ). I look forward to seeing its continued progression.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks David and Dominic. 

I owe Jim a big debt of gratitude as well. Three times he had to deal with the constraints of the DEH-80PRS in tuning my car previously. In all instances wrung out far more than I could have ever hoped to achieve. 

I look forward to getting to see everyone this weekend in Anaheim. All the better if I could get some tuning assistance from some of you more talented WCA tuners.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> I am also very impressed with the C3s, even in their less than optimal installation (stock dash location, firing into the glass through OE grills) in my car. After Papasin's cleaning up of ham-fisted tuning, they blend very well with my 6.5" Carbon midbasses and 1" BeCu tweeters. I'm currently crossing them at 315 Hz - 2.5 kHz, both @ 24 dB/octave.
> 
> The stage is much higher than it has ever been, pretty well focused, with some nice width.


This is excellent news for me, as I plan to run those Dayton full-ranges under my stock grills, firing up 

...and congratulations


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> This is excellent news for me, as I plan to run those Dayton full-ranges under my stock grills, firing up


Which Dayton full ranges are you going to try? 

Now that I have the grills with the OCF, I am going to do some A/B comparison with and without the foam. It is nice having two of the same vehicle. I can check the C3 with the "full baffle" and the SA-2.75FR with the "open baffle" (in my wife's car) both with and without the foam. I still plan to build full baffles for my wife's car as well.


----------



## HondAudio

rton20s said:


> Which Dayton full ranges are you going to try?
> 
> Now that I have the grills with the OCF, I am going to do some A/B comparison with and without the foam. It is nice having two of the same vehicle. I can check the C3 with the "full baffle" and the SA-2.75FR with the "open baffle" (in my wife's car) both with and without the foam. I still plan to build full baffles for my wife's car as well.


The RS100-8s, I think.


----------



## rton20s

Baby steps. It is tough making progress when you're attempting to split baby duties on the weekend so the wife can have some sort of break. 

Passenger door now has the MLV velcroed on. Next step is doing the same on the driver's side. The MLV is already rough cut. Following that, I'll add CCF and get some CLD on the door panels.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Looks good. I need to do this in my house lol. I've reached the output levels for my home system, based on what the house can take without rattling.


----------



## DLO13

Mlv in doors is no easy task. I'll have to try some Velcro.


----------



## mrpeabody

rton20s said:


> Baby steps. It is tough making progress when you're attempting to split baby duties on the weekend so the wife can have some sort of break.
> 
> Passenger door now has the MLV velcroed on. Next step is doing the same on the driver's side. The MLV is already rough cut. Following that, I'll add CCF and get some CLD on the door panels.


What MLV did you go with? How was the install?


----------



## rton20s

mrpeabody said:


> What MLV did you go with? How was the install?


I know I could have saved a few bucks, but I ordered all of my CCF, MLV, velcro, vinyl cement and butyl rope from Don @ Sound Deadener Showdown.



DLO13 said:


> Mlv in doors is no easy task. I'll have to try some Velcro.


Don (SDS) uses a very specific veclro due to failure of most "off the shelf" options, if I recall correctly. Even with this better velro, I must say you have to be careful with removal. It could have been the heat, but I had to be cautious when removing the MLV because the bond between the hook and loop was strong enough that it was wanting to pull the adhesive backing away from the door. Not a big deal if you take care, it is just something to be mindful of.

I was frustrated that I didn't have time to work on the car yesterday. I'll need to make time this week. I need to have both doors done sooner than later. :worried:


----------



## jnchantler

rton20s said:


> The revolver is a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Magnum. A birthday gift a few years back from my father in law.


That's funny. My first firearm was a Tristar under & over 12 gauge, also from my father-in-law.


----------



## HondAudio

Have you done anything as far as thermal insulation in your xB? I have some 'radiant barrier' that I'd like to maybe put under the carpets or something... maybe even hang it between the door card and the metal?


----------



## rton20s

HondAudio said:


> Have you done anything as far as thermal insulation in your xB? I have some 'radiant barrier' that I'd like to maybe put under the carpets or something... maybe even hang it between the door card and the metal?


Nothing thermal. Unless you count the denim insulation in the hatch. I'm sure there may be some thermal effect of adding the MLV and CCF to the doors, but it will likely be minimal.


----------



## Brian_smith06

just went through this entire thread. Very nice work. It has given me a few ideas for my own build


----------



## rton20s

Brian_smith06 said:


> just went through this entire thread. Very nice work. It has given me a few ideas for my own build


Thanks. I _should_ have some additional updates soon.


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> Thanks. I _should_ have some additional updates soon.


Yes you should!!!


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Yes you should!!!


----------



## DLO13

rton20s said:


>


----------



## papasin

Looking forward to check out the updates.


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Looking forward to check out the updates.


Two weeks, one day, ten hours... and counting.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just noticed your text for yesterday, was passed out from work. Sounds good, I need to hear those new 3's.


----------



## rton20s

Just a quick update on the day's progress. I got the velcro in on the driver's side as well as the CCF on both doors. Tomorrow I plan to get the drivers reinstalled and get the doors buttoned up. I do still need to cut some more CLD to get onto the door panels. 

Hopefully, I don't have to do any additional trimming to the MLV/CCF to get the door panels back on. Test fitting with the MLV was fine, so I'm hoping the CCF won't make much difference. I've also got some new clips from the local Toyota dealer as some of the originals are pretty trashed from pulling the door panels a few dozen times.


----------



## jhunter936

Ok, I'm late to the party but congrats on your recent high score!
Jeff


----------



## rton20s

Thanks Jeff. The car is really starting to come along.

I was able to finish up the doors this morning before our Independence Day festivities begin. The CLD is now installed on the door panels and I had to do a bit more trimming on the MLV and CCF at the base of each door to get the door panel clips to stay secure along the bottom of the door. 

I'm hoping that this was enough to kill most of my door rattles. If not, I may need to get back into the doors again. Though, I'm not sure how much more I can or am willing to do. No pics this time as I was in a rush to finish up before noon.


----------



## bmxscion

I have the CCF treatment on my to do list in my xB now. I have had a string of bad luck with some mechanical failures lately, so I have been trying to get that sorted out before I continue on with the system install. I did get a new sub...see my sig for more info. Pm if you want to talk about it. How much CCF did you order in all and where all besides the doors are you installing it?


----------



## rton20s

I finally had a chance to listen last night. The MLV and CCF and door panel CLD made a huge difference in the door rattles and buzzing. On the most demanding of tracks, there is still some minor buzzing at the door locks. JT warned me of this based on his experience with his own xB. 

Last week I thought my only focus after the doors would be getting a better tune on the system. However...


----------



## Golden Ear




----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Nice.

I'll have to pull out my midbass test when you stop by, maybe thurs? Haven't had the chance to use it on any car but the kia, but it absolutely was unplayable at high volumes in her car. Made the doors sound like they were going to fall off the car. And it's a classical piece.


----------



## rton20s

Sounds good. Just text me and let me know when works well for you.


----------



## rton20s

Thanks for nothing USPS. And I haven't even had a chance to open it yet to see if everything is in tact. My wife has surprised me tonight with dropping the boys off with my parents and taking me out for Teppanyaki for my birthday.


----------



## DLO13

I think a few people may need to watch out at the next comp!


----------



## rton20s

DLO13 said:


> I think a few people may need to watch out at the next comp!


Thanks Daniel.

The P99 is out and the 6to8v8 is now installed, at least in a temporary position. The Papasins really helped me out on Saturday in getting it tuned up. Despite several setbacks, they were willing to power through the day and get me tuned for what I would have to say is without a doubt the best my car has ever sounded. I also really appreciate the opportunity to sit in on their tuning process and learn some new things. 

As Daniel mentioned, he got a short listening session before I had to hit the road last night. I spent a few minutes listening at the house with the engine off, but most of my listening was done on my 3 hour drive home. I think I might have been grinning the whole way. I know I had a stupid grin on my face when I was coming down Pacheco Pass blasting Ride of the Valkyries and watching lighting strikes extend from the sky to the ground across the entire valley floor! 

Once I get some more listening time in, I'll give some more analytical commentary on the tune. For now, I will say that of every component in my system, I think the new C3s might just be the star of the show! Not that the other drivers and equipment aren't great, but the C3s are something special. Despite the less than optimal mounting location of being behind factory dash grills and firing up into the glass, these little guys needed minimal EQ adjustment and sound fantastic. If you've been on the fence about these drivers, do it now! Or, if you're in MECA Street class... DON'T! 

Here is the one picture for the day. MrsPapasin snapped this while I was scrambling away trying to trouble shoot a self-induced issue. You can see the location of the 6to8v8 on the right side of the enclosure. For ease of access, it is flipped (for now) to the same position on top of the enclosure.


----------



## MrsPapasin

rton20s said:


> ...The Papasins really helped me out on Saturday in getting it tuned up. Despite several setbacks, they were willing to power through the day and get me tuned for what I would have to say is without a doubt the best my car has ever sounded. I also really appreciate the opportunity to sit in on their tuning process and learn some new things.
> 
> As Daniel mentioned, he got a short listening session before I had to hit the road last night. I spent a few minutes listening at the house with the engine off, but most of my listening was done on my 3 hour drive home. I think I might have been grinning the whole way. I know I had a stupid grin on my face when I was coming down Pacheco Pass blasting Ride of the Valkyries and watching lighting strikes extend from the sky to the ground across the entire valley floor!
> ...


Wow, glad you like the tune! You made my day! It was our pleasure to have the opportunity. Thank you!!!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Man, completely missed your text Dustin. Tuesday should be good, the day I get the most sleep anyways. Looking forward to hearing the changes.


----------



## papasin

Dustin, remember when I asked MrsPapasin if she would be willing to drive your car? The answer to that should speak volumes. 

I agree the C3s are great, but equally important IMHO is the addition of a full blown DSP such as the 6to8v8. It's not perfect, but it's one of my favorites to tune with as the backseat driver yesterday.


----------



## rton20s

Chris, I'll text you on Tuesday to make sure it will work out for both of us. 

Richard, I would absolutely agree that the 6to8 was key. The advantage, at least for my install, was quickly apparent when compared to the P99. Not that the P99 was any slouch! 

I had Genny take a quick listen tonight and she seemed pretty impressed. She certainly doesn't have the best ears (some hearing damage), but even she was able to pick up on the staging (center, depth, width). Her comments after led me to believe she really liked the tonality as well.


----------



## rton20s

Oh, and I am very pleased that MrsPapasin would be willing to drive in my car. Even if it might not be capable of scoring an 85. 

She just might not enjoy the stiff suspension and low ride height all that much.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> I had Genny take a quick listen tonight and she seemed pretty impressed. She certainly doesn't have the best ears (some hearing damage), but even she was able to pick up on the staging (center, depth, width). Her comments after led me to believe she really liked the tonality as well.



Just be careful. When she asks when her car is going to sound like that, then that's when you know you're in trouble.


----------



## papasin

rton20s said:


> Oh, and I am very pleased that MrsPapasin would be willing to drive in my car. Even if it might not be capable of scoring an 85.
> 
> She just might not enjoy the stiff suspension and low ride height all that much.



You should talk to Jazzi about MrsPapasin's suspension. 

You'd be surprised what she might be willing to tolerate...but driving vehicles that don't sound good (like the minivan before we put a system in it) isn't one of them.


----------



## eling23

Wished we had both cars finished early so I could hop in as well, sounded great from the outside! well it also sounded great as i was in my own car and Daniel was in yours and had the xB TUUUUUURNT UP!


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Just be careful. When she asks when her car is going to sound like that, then that's when you know you're in trouble.


Hmm... she did have me driver her car today to drop off our oldest at daycare. :surprised: She says it was so I wouldn't have to put his car seat back in my car.



eling23 said:


> Wished we had both cars finished early so I could hop in as well, sounded great from the outside! well it also sounded great as i was in my own car and Daniel was in yours and had the xB TUUUUUURNT UP!


I'd really like a chance to hear yours as well. Like you, I only had a chance to hear it a bit from the outside while Shin John was doing his thing. Hopefully we'll run into each other again at a get together or comp.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Thanks Daniel.
> 
> The P99 is out and the 6to8v8 is now installed, at least in a temporary position. The Papasins really helped me out on Saturday in getting it tuned up. Despite several setbacks, they were willing to power through the day and get me tuned for what I would have to say is without a doubt the best my car has ever sounded. I also really appreciate the opportunity to sit in on their tuning process and learn some new things.
> 
> As Daniel mentioned, he got a short listening session before I had to hit the road last night. I spent a few minutes listening at the house with the engine off, but most of my listening was done on my 3 hour drive home. I think I might have been grinning the whole way. I know I had a stupid grin on my face when I was coming down Pacheco Pass blasting Ride of the Valkyries and watching lighting strikes extend from the sky to the ground across the entire valley floor!
> 
> Once I get some more listening time in, I'll give some more analytical commentary on the tune. For now, I will say that of every component in my system, I think the new C3s might just be the star of the show! Not that the other drivers and equipment aren't great, but the C3s are something special. Despite the less than optimal mounting location of being behind factory dash grills and firing up into the glass, these little guys needed minimal EQ adjustment and sound fantastic. If you've been on the fence about these drivers, do it now! Or, if you're in MECA Street class... DON'T!
> 
> Here is the one picture for the day. MrsPapasin snapped this while I was scrambling away trying to trouble shoot a self-induced issue. You can see the location of the 6to8v8 on the right side of the enclosure. For ease of access, it is flipped (for now) to the same position on top of the enclosure.


We need to give the Papasins the nickname the Dynamic Duo lol.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## papasin

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> We need to give the Papasins the nickname the Dynamic Duo lol.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I'll answer to Robin if rton20s answers to Justin. :laugh:


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> I'll answer to Robin if rton20s answers to Justin. :laugh:


----------



## rton20s

What.

Have.

I.

Done?


----------



## mrpeabody

Ooooo noice.


----------



## HondAudio

Oh yeah? Well...


----------



## teldzc1

Those look like 15's. You going IB or ported?


----------



## damonryoung

Up front sub?


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## DLO13

DRTHJTA said:


> Up front sub?
> 
> 
> Beware of autocorrect...


He didn't....!!!!


----------



## rton20s

mrpeabody said:


> Ooooo noice.


Indeed, and a local pick up. All I have done so far is test resistance and hit each coil with a 9V to make sure they work. I haven't even paid for them yet! I'd never met the guy and he trusted me to take them home and test. 



HondAudio said:


> Oh yeah? Well...


Very nice. It looks like it is really starting to come together.



teldzc1 said:


> Those look like 15's. You going IB or ported?


Yep, 15s. I don't think either IB or ported would work well in my little xB. Though I do have two xBs and two 15s.


----------



## rton20s

DRTHJTA said:


> Up front sub?
> 
> 
> Beware of autocorrect...


I was thinking of having JT build me some pillars for them and moving up to Extreme. 



DLO13 said:


> He didn't....!!!!


I would consider it, except my wife has legs. She might appreciate being able to sit in the passenger seat.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Just take the same approach as the BMW with subs in the kicks. Lots of metal work, but I know you know the people to make that happen

Then again, I doubt his were as deep as these. Still interested in seeing whatever you do with them.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Just take the same approach as the BMW with subs in the kicks. Lots of metal work, but I know you know the people to make that happen
> 
> Then again, I doubt his were as deep as these. Still interested in seeing whatever you do with them.


Meh... what is a little cutting, welding and complete inability to operate a vehicle when you have the kind of impact, clarity and up front bass that only 15s in the kicks can provide?! 

I honestly have no plans for them right now. I just couldn't pass up the deal. In order to get them I also had to pick up a Pioneer AVH-P4000DVD and two sets of db Drive Rev 650 coaxes as an "all or nothing" package. At least he let me take the subwoofers out of the way too small for a pair of W15s (but still to big to fit into an xB) enclosure. I might be looking to sell or trade all of it.


----------



## cobb2819

papasin said:


> I'll answer to Robin if rton20s answers to Justin. :laugh:


Justin is better than people getting us confused at GTGs!!!


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Justin is better than people getting us confused at GTGs!!!


I should have tried to get cash up front from people for "killer deals on ORCA gear."


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> I should have tried to get cash up front from people for "killer deals on ORCA gear."


And then a real beard showed up and people felt duped!!!


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> And then a real beard showed up and people felt duped!!!



Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob?









Jacob???!!!


----------



## cobb2819

Nah dude...from the beanie dude and up is you, below him is me...especially that last guy!!! If I was that dark I'm pretty sure we should just say I was skin cancer.


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Nah dude...from the beanie dude and up is you, below him is me...especially that last guy!!! If I was that dark I'm pretty sure we should just say I was *lung* cancer.


FTFY

Jacob!









Jacob!









Jacob!


----------



## cobb2819

Dude...that last one is pretty close!!!


----------



## papasin

cobb2819 said:


> Dude...that last one is pretty close!!!



Beat me to it.


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Dude...that last one is pretty close!!!





papasin said:


> Beat me to it.


Double take? 

All gingers looks the same, you know.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Meh... what is a little cutting, welding and complete inability to operate a vehicle when you have the kind of impact, clarity and up front bass that only 15s in the kicks can provide?!
> 
> I honestly have no plans for them right now. I just couldn't pass up the deal. In order to get them I also had to pick up a *Pioneer AVH-P4000DVD *and two sets of db Drive Rev 650 coaxes as an "all or nothing" package. At least he let me take the subwoofers out of the way too small for a pair of W15s (but still to big to fit into an xB) enclosure. I might be looking to sell or trade all of it.


AVH-P4000DVD...that's practically old school. :surprised:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> AVH-P4000DVD...that's practically old school. :surprised:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Practically. And I have no harness or packaging. I haven't tested it yet and likely won't. I'm thinking that will be resold locally "as is" or "for parts."


----------



## teldzc1

Do you really need rear seats? You could the two in ported easily without em....


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> Practically. And I have no harness or packaging. I haven't tested it yet and likely won't. I'm thinking that will be resold locally "as is" or "for parts."


Actually the harness is dirt cheap. 

Pioneer AVH P4000DVD AVHP4000DVD Wire Harness Pay Today Ships Today | eBay


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

teldzc1 said:


> Do you really need rear seats? You could the two in ported easily without em....


Hey... Weren't you wanting to step up to 15s? We could make a deal. 



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Actually the harness I dirt cheap.
> 
> Pioneer AVH P4000DVD AVHP4000DVD Wire Harness Pay Today Ships Today | eBay
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I found the same one after I posted. Good looking out. I'd only seen the pricing of the Pioneer harness that seemed to large a percentage of the potential sale price.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

teldzc1 said:


> Do you really need rear seats? You could the two in ported easily without em....


Lol, I asked the exact same thing.


----------



## teldzc1

I'm on vacation right now but we might be able to work something out when I get back.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I asked the exact same thing.


The seats stay.



teldzc1 said:


> I'm on vacation right now but we might be able to work something out when I get back.


Let me know. I'll be up for the MECA Comp and GTG on the 15th and I could bring them with me.


----------



## teldzc1

rton20s said:


> The seats stay.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know. I'll be up for the MECA Comp and GTG on the 15th and I could bring them with me.



I'll be out that weekend...somehow I'm always away during the GTG Weekends.


----------



## rton20s

teldzc1 said:


> I'll be out that weekend...somehow I'm always away during the GTG Weekends.


That is too bad. I think it is going to be a really good GTG. 

I'm probably going to go ahead and list them. I have some other gear that I would like to pick up, but I can't do that until these are gone. I'll post a link here if anyone is interested.


----------



## rton20s

And the link to the classified ad...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/207201-fs-jbl-w15gti-mkii-pair.html


----------



## Accordman

i keep consistantly looking back here for updates lol....my personal pile has grown pretty exponentially.


----------



## rton20s

So, this happened yesterday...









Officially 2015 MECA Street California State Champion. I could have never gotten there without the help of so many people I've met through DIYMA. Thank you Richard, Linda, Jim, Chris, Jacob and all of Team WCA for all you've done to help and support me! 

And things don't stop now. So much more work to do. I might be tearing into the doors again to do some more deadening when I find some time.


----------



## papasin

Doors? Just skip that and go 5" on the dash!  Congrats! Well deserved.


----------



## damonryoung

Congrats Dustin! 


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Nice Dustin, congrats.


----------



## MrsPapasin

Yay! Congrats, Dustin!!!


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Doors? Just skip that and go 5" on the dash!  Congrats! Well deserved.


Thanks. Why stop at 5s? C8s on the dash anyone? We'll talk. 



DRTHJTA said:


> Congrats Dustin!
> 
> 
> Beware of autocorrect...





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Nice Dustin, congrats.





MrsPapasin said:


> Yay! Congrats, Dustin!!!


Thanks guys, and gal. A lot going on right now around our place, but I may be looking to make some fairly significant changes for next year. And then, there is also the wife's new car. 

One thing at a time... one thing at a time.


----------



## Darth SQ

rton20s said:


> So, this happened yesterday...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Officially 2015 MECA Street California State Champion. I could have never gotten there without the help of so many people I've met through DIYMA. Thank you Richard, Linda, Jim, Chris, Jacob and all of Team WCA for all you've done to help and support me!
> 
> And things don't stop now. So much more work to do. I might be tearing into the doors again to do some more deadening when I find some time.


I think you're going to need a larger hat. 
Now doesn't eating your ice cream and providing you with a regular dose of jocularity garner a thank you as well?
Nevermind, I don't want to know.
Great job my friend. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I think you're going to need a larger hat.
> Now doesn't eating your ice cream and providing you with a regular dose of jocularity garner a thank you as well?
> Nevermind, I don't want to know.
> Great job my friend. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Thanks Bret! And...



rton20s said:


> Thank you Richard, Linda, Jim, Chris, Jacob and *all of Team WCA* for all you've done to help and support me!


I think that includes you.


----------



## Alrojoca

Congratulations for taking the ultimate first place trophy and not a first place ribbon.


----------



## rton20s

Alrojoca said:


> Congratulations for taking the ultimate first place trophy and not a first place ribbon.


Thanks Al.


----------



## Golden Ear

Congrats, State Champ!!


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> Congrats, State Champ!!


Thanks Dom!


----------



## rton20s

Wasted over 6 hours last night trying to hack my 4 year old's Kindle Fire HD to accept Android apps so I could install the Mosconi DSP Controller app. After my 800th road block, I finally called it quits and uninstalled/deleted everything around 2:00 am.

What else was I going to do? I was on baby duty anyway. 

I really don't need a controller right away, but I guess it is time to start putting away some cash and figuring out how to implement it into the install.


----------



## DLO13

rton20s said:


> Wasted over 6 hours last night trying to hack my 4 year old's Kindle Fire HD to accept Android apps so I could install the Mosconi DSP Controller app. After my 800th road block, I finally called it quits and uninstalled/deleted everything around 2:00 am.
> 
> What else was I going to do? I was on baby duty anyway.
> 
> I really don't need a controller right away, but I guess it is time to start putting away some cash and figuring out how to implement it into the install.


do any of your friends/family have a retired android phone?


----------



## rton20s

DLO13 said:


> do any of your friends/family have a retired android phone?


Nope. They all know better.   I could put out a feeler on FB, I suppose. 

I have considered picking up a low cost Android tablet or unlocked phone.


----------



## jtaudioacc

sure you could find an android phone on the side of the street for free.


----------



## JayinMI

Did you try using CFAutoroot? I did it on my Samsung tablet and it worked great.

Jay


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> sure you could find an android phone on the side of the street for free.


Where is my Obama phone?











JayinMI said:


> Did you try using CFAutoroot? I did it on my Samsung tablet and it worked great.
> 
> Jay


No. I was going through some convoluted steps to add the Google Play store to the Kindle Fire without rooting the device. I'm sure the instructions and dead links were relevant when the article was published over 2 years ago. Today? Not so much.


----------



## n2deep3d

One of the best resources for android anything: Android Forum for Mobile Phones, Tablets, Watches & Android App Development - XDA Forums


----------



## rton20s

n2deep3d said:


> One of the best resources for android anything: Android Forum for Mobile Phones, Tablets, Watches & Android App Development - XDA Forums


Thanks for the tip.


----------



## rton20s

In honor of the release of The Force Awakens, I decided to put the system through its paces a bit today.


----------



## papasin

Which preset? And how does it sound?


----------



## rton20s

Driving position, of course. While I was driving over to the Outlets. It was a fun listen.


----------



## rton20s

Oh shoot...










Looks like some build changes are on the horizon. Unfortunately, I did not take any photos for a DIY on the pod build, but below are my step by step instructions. 


Own the same vehicle as one of the best builders in the country.
Wait for builder to change out equipment and remove vehicle specific custom pods.
Swoop in to pick up used gear to implement into your own build.

Big thanks to JT for these!


----------



## papasin

Looks good as always. Come on up to the classes where pods are allowed!


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> Looks good as always. Come on up to the classes where pods are allowed!


ModEx here I come. 

Eventually. 

The car needs a lot of non-audio work first. Probably.


----------



## bertholomey

Sweet! Great technique there with the swooping action!


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> The car needs a lot of non-audio work first. Probably.


Oh please!!!


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Oh please!!!


Mine truly is "not a project." Unlike some other cars we know. 

Don't you have some bracing to remove?


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> Don't you have some bracing to remove?


Maybe!!!


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Maybe!!!


I'm patiently awaiting the screen name change to "*SPLDomani*."


----------



## cobb2819

rton20s said:


> I'm patiently awaiting the screen name change to "*SPLDomani*."


Nope...no name change, no giving away anything.


----------



## rton20s

cobb2819 said:


> Nope...no name change, no giving away anything.


----------



## jtaudioacc

rton20s said:


> Oh shoot...


those are cute, but i say, go big or go home!










now dats real esQ!


----------



## damonryoung

jtaudioacc said:


> those are cute, but i say, go big or go home!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now dats real esQ!




Damn! Are those 3 ways?!?


----------



## jtaudioacc

DRTHJTA said:


> Damn! Are those 3 ways?!?


yeah, point sources yo!


----------



## rton20s

jtaudioacc said:


> those are cute, but i say, go big or go home!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now dats real esQ!


Bwahahaha! Using the pics I point you to against me? When I saw the email notification, I was sure you were going to post a pic of your own pods for the 5s. 

For those that got so distracted by those awesome 6 1/2" Pioneer 3 way coaxes on the dash, make sure you take a look at the cup holder in the dash, just to the right of the HVAC controls.


----------



## Golden Ear

SUPER TWEETERS!! 'Cause everyone's ears should bleed listening to music


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


----------



## rton20s

Golden Ear said:


> SUPER TWEETERS!! 'Cause everyone's ears should bleed listening to music
> 
> 
> Sent from my mind using telekinesis


You have no idea how many times I will be having a discussion about audio on an xB specific forum or FB group and have to leave the discussion with a simple reply of... 

"Super tweeters? I'm out."


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I don't know if that's worse than the Dodge neon forums where some people insist that pulling used stock speakers from junkyard neons is the most cost effective way to gain sound quality when replacing your blown speakers.


----------



## Golden Ear

rton20s said:


> You have no idea how many times I will be having a discussion about audio on an xB specific forum or FB group and have to leave the discussion with a simple reply of...
> 
> 
> 
> "Super tweeters? I'm out."






TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I don't know if that's worse than the Dodge neon forums where some people insist that pulling used stock speakers from junkyard neons is the most cost effective way to gain sound quality when replacing your blown speakers.




Haha


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## bmxscion

Super tweeter center channel....? Lol.


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## rton20s

Well, I finally got them installed last night. I was delayed as I had a lot of work to do replacing the struts on my coilovers, the driver side axle, the alternator adjuster, rotating the wheels and installing new lug nuts and locks. 

Everything seems to be working again, but I'll definitely need to update the tune for the new configuration.


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## rton20s

Looks like I have been neglecting this thread for quite some time. I've posted some updates on Facebook, but nothing here. 

First, the dash has changed quite a bit since my last post. It has gone through a couple of changes as indicated in the photo below. The procedure for the new pods is pretty similar to what I posted for the old pods here: Thanks JT!










I installed the new pods with adapter rings for the 3s for a short time before moving to the Illusion Audio C5s.

Prior to making that change, I started doing some design work for the enclosures for my new subwoofers. 









Weekend before last, I finally had the opportunity to start bringing that model to a reality. It helps to have a brother who likes really expensive toys. He purchased a 5'x10' Arc Light Dynamics CNC plasma cutter a little over a year ago. A bonus feature of the unit is that it comes with a router and mounting hardware to convert it to a CNC router. Two sheets of 3/4" and one sheet of 1/2" MDF later and we have this...









































There is plenty of clean up work to be done, but this was both of our first times messing with a CNC router. If we had gotten plunge depth dialed in sooner, there would have been virtually no clean up. As it is, the work will still be pretty minimal. Another lesson learned? Purchase a good dust collection system before converting your CNC Plasma to a CNC router. I've purchased most of what I will need to complete the enclosures, but I'll probably pick up some additional clamps for the glue up process. 

The cheap "Q Power" grills I ordered to help protect the subwoofers arrived today. I have my new amps on order and should probably have them next month. I've also taken advantage of Andy's current special and ordered a UMI-1 to finally have a proper measurement mic. No more relying on an IMM-6 or needing to borrow a mic from friends.


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## casey

nice work on that box! Interested to see how it comes out.

How low are you getting the C5's to play? Thats one way to eliminate door issues without having kicks lol


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## Elgrosso

That is pretty cool work! Maybe I missed it but where will they go, side panels or trunk?


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## diy.phil

^ oooh that looks so delicious!!


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## rton20s

casey said:


> nice work on that box! Interested to see how it comes out.
> 
> How low are you getting the C5's to play? Thats one way to eliminate door issues without having kicks lol


If I recall correctly, they are currently crossed around 125Hz. But, this is an xB. There will always be door rattles. 



Elgrosso said:


> That is pretty cool work! Maybe I missed it but where will they go, side panels or trunk?


These are under-seat enclosures. They are designed to fit under the front seat of the xB. There should be no modifications required for the passenger side. The driver side will require the relocation of the jack and removal of the jack mount. 



diy.phil said:


> ^ oooh that looks so delicious!!


Thanks. Hopefully it all works! :laugh:


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## nadams5755

rton20s said:


> The cheap "Q Power" grills I ordered to help protect the subwoofers arrived today.


those grills look familiar


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## rton20s

nadams5755 said:


> those grills look familiar


Indeed. Delivered from Newegg and unboxed this evening.


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## Accordman

Where are the updates on the under seat boxes? 
more pics. 

in still loving my Audiofrog 3 way setup, but am currently about to do GB12's to replace my GB10's.


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## nadams5755

they're playing


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## rton20s

Nick is correct. All of the new gear is in and currently playing. There was a lot of delay in getting stuff done. Some within my control, some of it not. 

Despite the extensive measurements I took, the enclosures just wouldn't fit as originally cut. Fortunately, I didn't glue anything together until I confirmed fitment. Waiting to get new layers cut pushed me right up to the last minute on getting the car ready for State Finals. I'll attempt an update here, including a few pics I was able to manage along the way. (Unfortunately, Photobucket sucks, so for some reason some of the photos aren't currently showing up.)

First is the long overdue amplifier update. I've pulled out the Arc KS amps (soon to be for sale) and in are a few Zapco Z-APs. One Z-150.6 AP and two Z-4002. APs to be exact. Here is a photo I took after a subtle modification. Those who know the amps will probably pick up on it, those that don't probably won't. 









Next up is testing the 14 GA steel amp racks that I designed and had my brother cut on his CNC. I designed these so they could be bent a few different ways and still work. Right now, he only has a cheap Harbor Freight hydraulic press, so this is the shape we ended up with. It worked out well enough. 

























And a couple of shots after I painted it with some Krylon Satin Black Cover Maxx and began assembly at the kitchen table. 

























Next up, some subwoofer enclosure test fitting with the replacement layers I had cut. There were still some clearance issues on the passenger side. 









A little persuasion with a rubber mallet, some clamps and vice grips and the bracket for the wiring connector clears. I may have a new bracket cut and welded on when I finish out the enclosures. 









Time to clamp and glue! I built each enclosure in two stages. I would stack, glue and clamp the lower five sections and then come back later and do the same for the top four. For the most part, these were left for hours while I either took the opportunity to sleep for the night, or was at work. As you can see, this method left quite a bit of clean up. 

















So, I picked up a cheap Ryobi random orbital sander. This little guy literally saved me days of hand sanding and who knows how much money in pain relievers. I also grabbed a cheap bandfile belt sander from Harbor Freight to get into the pockets the Ryobi wouldn't fit in. It didn't do nearly as nice a job, but it can't really be seen once installed, and likely won't be visible at all once I finish out the enclosures. 

































Time to test fit the cleaned up enclosures.









Then with the subwoofers and binding posts installed. As you can see, this is the second big change. I'm moving from a single Arc Black 12 to a pair of Raven 10XLs. The old system was in the back here as I wasn't sure where my go/no go point would be for State Finals. I was trying to make sure everything worked and cleared before pulling the old gear. This was sometime late on Thursday night, I think. 









And this is what the car looked like Friday at noon. The subwoofers fit and cleared the seats. So, out with the old in preparation for the new. 









Seats are back in (mostly) and the partially completed amp rack is "installed." The third big change from the Mosconi 6to8 V8 to the Helix DSP.2 can be seen on the right side. As you can tell, there is a mix of old Knu RCAs and some custom units that I am building. There is also a ton of wiring clean up work to do. I still need to determine how the base will be finished out and how the cover supports will be build and incorporated. I'm hoping to put the stock covers back in, but I'm not sure how well they might fit/work. 

















And the enclosures under the seats. There is just enough room for rear passengers with average size feet to be heel in/toe out and still rest their feet in the floor. The enclosures will be back out again. I plan to put a radius on the top and bottom edge as well as finish them out. Most likely finish is some sort of bed liner material since they is a high potential for kicks and scuffs from feet. I also have some cheap grills I plan to place over the subs, but the mounting rings that came with them are too small. I'll make some custom rings that should allow the grills to press-fit onto the subs. 









I finally called it "good enough" around 5:30 on Friday evening with nothing more than gains set on the mids and basic crossovers within the DSP. A quick shower and we loaded up the car and made the trek to San Luis Obispo. 









And I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Chris Purdue (TooStubborn2Fail) for coming over to lend a hand on getting the car back together for the competition. There is NO WAY it would have made it without his help.

As I said previously, we left with the car completely untuned. Fortunately for me, Nick Adams has been offering moral support and constant prodding thoughout the process.  He also graciously offered to help me get the car tuned for the competition. I'm very glad he did because my brain was absolutely fried and I just don't have the tuning skillset that he does. In a couple hours of time at the competition he was able to get a very solid tune on the car. I think there are certainly improvements to be made (especially in sound treatment, but likely in tuning as well), but what Nick was able to pull off in such a short time was outstanding. I haven't touched the tune since, and have been taking some time to just enjoy the new setup and tune for a little while. 

So, how does it sound? In my opinion, it sounds quite good. One of the things I was always missing with my previous setups was dynamics and impact. I certainly don't think that is an issue now. I was worried about the under seat subs, but for competition listening, I think they worked out quite well. And when you get really loud there is tactile feedback, but I think much (certainly not all) of it can be addressed. 

In the lanes, the car proved to be a success. Richard Papasin, Matt Roberts and Damon Young did an excellent job judging State Finals for us. The sleepless nights and mad thrash paid off with a victory in ModEx. The car's averaged score ended up being 78.33 (79.75, 79.75, 75.5) edging out second place by only 0.25 points. Now, a short break and then right back to getting the finish work done and getting everything dialed in. 









If anyone has any questions about the gear, install or anything else on the car, just let me know.


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## nadams5755

congrats. next up - lots of deadening. 

i always thought a tuning competition would be neat, give competitors a couple hours in with the same car, see who could eek out the best tune from it.


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## bbfoto

[email protected], that is a sweet setup! Nice work on the subwoofer enclosures. And I love the clean n' simple amplifier brackets.

Congrats on the win as well! And props to Nick for the last-minute winning tune. :thumbsup:

I'm going to have to hook up with you on my way up to/or back from the family's Bass Lake house. I usually end up spending any extra time and money I have at Bentley's (world famous) Drum Shop in Fresno.  But would love to hear your system and let you put an ear on mine as well.

Looking forward to seeing how you finish up the rear cargo area/amp rack and any other updates.


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## rton20s

nadams5755 said:


> congrats. next up - lots of deadening.
> 
> i always thought a tuning competition would be neat, give competitors a couple hours in with the same car, see who could eek out the best tune from it.


Yep. I just need to find the motivation to gut the entire car. I've done it before (save for the headliner), and it isn't too bad. I just don't look forward to doing it again. 



bbfoto said:


> [email protected], that is a sweet setup! Nice work on the subwoofer enclosures. And I love the clean n' simple amplifier brackets.
> 
> Congrats on the win as well! And props to Nick for the last-minute winning tune. :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm going to have to hook up with you on my way up to/or back from the family's Bass Lake house. I usually end up spending any extra time and money I have at Bentley's (world famous) Drum Shop in Fresno.  But would love to hear your system and let you put an ear on mine as well.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing how you finish up the rear cargo area/amp rack and any other updates.


Thanks. Any time you are passing through, just let me know. I'm on the SW side of Visalia, pretty close to the 99. So, making the pit stop would be a pretty simple endeavor.


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## nadams5755

rton20s said:


> Fortunately for me, Nick Adams has been offering moral support and constant prodding thoughout the process.


going through this year's messages and grabbing these was a pain but https://agitated.net/pics/is-it-done-yet.pdf

about once a month


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## cdaburnerb

Any more info on the enclosures you built for under the seats? Curious to build one myself just for under the passenger seat.


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## rton20s

cdaburnerb said:


> Any more info on the enclosures you built for under the seats? Curious to build one myself just for under the passenger seat.


What kind of info are you looking for? I will say that I think that I have come very close to maximizing the volume available under the seat without encroaching in to the rear footwell so much that the rear seats become useless. Total internal volume is right around 0.6cf per enclosure. 

There have been a few other commercially available under-seat enclosure designs I have seen for the xB. JL made one, as did Elemental Designs and Elegonics/Quarter Wave Designs. I had the Elegonics model in my wife's xB for several years, but sold it a while back. If you look hard enough, you might be able to find someone looking to sell one of those enclosures.


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## Accordman

No super tweets? I’m out. Lmao


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## rton20s

Accordman said:


> No super tweets? I’m out. Lmao


I'll leave that and the dash-mounted $50 5.25" coaxes to the other 95% of xB owners. :laugh:

I look forward to seeing the updates in your car.


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## Accordman

rton20s said:


> I'll leave that and the dash-mounted $50 5.25" coaxes to the other 95% of xB owners. :laugh:
> 
> I look forward to seeing the updates in your car.


LOL I have another stack of goodies about to go in again.

A bunch of stinger X2 interconnects
some phoenix gold amps
my DSP3
all different wiring
toslink source into the processor
Audiofrog GB12s
new subwoofer box
new batteries
finally sound treat the roof.

Only thing holding it up is im building my wife Flex at the moment lol.


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## rton20s

Accordman said:


> LOL I have another stack of goodies about to go in again.
> 
> A bunch of stinger X2 interconnects
> some phoenix gold amps
> my DSP3
> all different wiring
> toslink source into the processor
> Audiofrog GB12s
> new subwoofer box
> new batteries
> finally sound treat the roof.
> 
> Only thing holding it up is im building my wife Flex at the moment lol.


Nice. I am slowly getting around to changing out my old DEH-80PRS for the DDX-9905S. While I am in there, I am changing out the old Knu Konceptz RCAs for some homemade cables I put together, adding a back up camera and a URC.3 for the DSP.2. That should all be done before this weekend. 

I have other changes to make after that, but I will probably until after the Rock-It MECA event up in Mt. View.


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## leih261

Thumbs up


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## Accordman

its been a while , how are you liking your newer headhunt now? I now am optical out into the helix processor but think im going to change processors again.


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## rton20s

Accordman said:


> its been a while , how are you liking your newer headhunt now? I now am optical out into the helix processor but think im going to change processors again.


I'm still loving the Kenwood. At this point, I see no reason to change it out for anything else. If I did, the newer version of the unit I have (DDX9907XR), but I don't see the upgrades/updates worth the effort of swapping. 

Which processor are you looking to switch to?


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