# Anybody have experience with Labyrinth 12 inch dual sub boxes



## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi, I am wondering what people think of the labyrinth sub boxes. Would be nice to hear from people that have used it or using it.It would also be nice to hear from sub box builders as well. This is what the ad says about them. Labyrinth slot venting is a form of porting on a much higher level versus cutting a hole in a box,and dropping a port tube in. The labyrinth increases the amount of bass your woofer produces.Without adding any additional power to the system. As with all porting designs,the labyrinth opens up the back side of the woofer so more sound can escape from the inside chamber of the box. By utilizing both the push and pull motion of your subwoofer, the design of the enclosure is magnifying the sound of the subwoofer without exterior power added.The design of the labyrinth slot vent brings a controlled sound level increase. By its maze design,long low frequency waves easily escape,while short high frequency waves remain trapped.Unable to cause unwanted cancellation and distortion. In turn,this gives you the listener,loud clean bass,a sealed or basic port design cannot deliver. Is this a better mousetrap so to speak,better way to get the best sound quality out of your subwoofers,while decreasing the amount of amp power needed to power them.Looking forward to hearing from everyone.Thanks


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

That description is a bunch of marketing BS. A straight port is the most efficient port because the sound waves don't have to bend back and forth creating resistance and possible noise.

The purpose of a labyrinth is simply to be able to use a longer port than would otherwise be practical as a straight port. In order to increase port gain and reduce possible port noise you need more port area and correspondingly they'll need to be longer and possibly need to be bent to fit in the enclosure.

But more importantly than the style of port, the box needs to be able to be matched to the subwoofer properly. By buying the box first you're limiting yourself to subwoofers that are compatible with it. And more often than not those prefab boxes are too small and tuned too high. Good for being loud and more compact but they leave a lot to be desired if you're going for sound quality.


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi,Thanks for clearing that up. I figured there must be a reason you never heard much about them. More of a gimmick than anything. I have always done it the way you say.By buying the subs first ,and then looking at the sub box specs for sealed and ported, the sub manufacturer requests,and going with that. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't something to it. Thanks


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## soccerguru607 (Nov 4, 2009)

I am using one, 1.81cuft 1" MDF face with Ground Zero Uranium 12" sub. I am quite satisfied, I don't hear no noise when hitting hard. My opinion its quite smooth compare to other ported box I had used. But custom built to sub specs. and pro tuned are always best. 

I thought Bose system use something similar to this with the right speaker combination.


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi,Nice to hear from an actual user of one of the labyrinth sub boxes. I usually build to sub box specs,but have never had any pro, tune the box. Do you half to tune it while the box is being made,or can you do it after. You would think by waiting till after.You would be **** out of luck ,since everything is essentially nailed down. Wouldn't going by the manufactures factory specs be all the tuning the box needed. I'm asking, as I myself, do not know.


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## soccerguru607 (Nov 4, 2009)

I am not expert in building boxes. Generally I had pro build my boxes so I am no good to ask tech. questions. You see the reason I just bought a prefab box and drop the sub in? Builder was busy. This is one of very few time that I just bought a prefab box, because they did a great job preaching how great their boxes are. I just got 'lucky' it worked so well. If it were amp repairing questions I might be able to help. 

mmm ask Westco, he should be much more knowledgeable about building box than I do because I think he has a friend actually own a business that build custom boxes for subs.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

It's not too hard to get box specs. You can download a program called WinISD, the better version is on their facebook page.

You input the corresponding thiele small parameters and it will output a pretty decent approximation of how the subwoofer will behave in the enclosure, it will tell you a lot more too if you know how to interpret it such as port velocity and group delay.

These programs are basically what the experts use and so if you want you can easily just buy whatever subwoofer you want and use the program to tell you what box you need, tell the box builder to build a box of a certain volume, and then just buy a port, cut to length and install it. You can always cut the port longer and tune it by running test tones to see where your tuning frequency is or if you want a higher or lower tuning frequency to fine tune your system.

This is a lot better than just buying the box first. Even though it might sound great, I'm betting it's tuned too high still.

12" inch Dual Subwoofer Sub Box Enclosure Labyrinth Vented Ported 1" MDF Face | eBay

That's what I came up with searching for labyrinth dual subwoofer box. And it's tuned to 38 hz and 1.86 cubic feet. Better than most but really still too high. I bet if you played some really deep bass in the 30 hz range, the bottom for most music, the subwoofers would unload, a dangerous situation unless you know how to use the subsonic filter properly.

MobileSoundWorks is my favorite when it comes to prefab subwoofer boxes. They're appropriately large a 2 cubic foot per woofer and tuned low enough for SQ. It says 32 hz, but on the single box I have it's more like 30 hz in reality after I tested it.

4 CU ft Custom Vented Dual 12" MDF Car Subwoofer Box Enclosure Tuned 32Hz | eBay

I would say that box would be more compatible to more subwoofers and yield better sound quality specifically because it's not tuned too high.

I even have the 8" version and with an Image Dynamics ID8 which happens to match the best SQ alignment for the sub, most people are shocked when I open my trunk and all they see is one tiny 8", they're often expecting 2 12's or something like that because it plays so deep and clean.


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Imo there's really nothing wrong with a labyrinth enclosure. Usually the need for one comes from lower running and having to put the port somewhere. Due to dimension limitations sometimes you can't make a port long and wrap around the inside of the enclosure and still have room for the sub. The problem with that ebay one is the sharp corners leaving a place for standing waves to be captured. This one here that I built had 45's in every corner and the air flowed smooth. No noise and sounded nearly perfect. 1.75^3ft tuned to 29hz. Only problem was too much port area limited the upper bandwidth. It played from 23-50 with a ssa xcon 10"


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

FWIW there are no standing waves in any sub enclosure we use in the car...there are no waves in the bass in the car at all.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

nineball76 said:


> Imo there's really nothing wrong with a labyrinth enclosure. Usually the need for one comes from lower running and having to put the port somewhere. Due to dimension limitations sometimes you can't make a port long and wrap around the inside of the enclosure and still have room for the sub. The problem with that ebay one is the sharp corners leaving a place for standing waves to be captured. This one here that I built had 45's in every corner and the air flowed smooth. No noise and sounded nearly perfect. 1.75^3ft tuned to 29hz. Only problem was too much port area limited the upper bandwidth. It played from 23-50 with a ssa xcon 10"


Port area is not what's limiting your upper bandwidth. Port area only affects your port gain. Unless your port tuning was tuned high to create a distinct peak at port tuning above the natural response of the subwoofer, port area has nothing to do with upper frequency response. That's all in the driver at that point. Above the tuning frequency of the box, the system essentially behaves like a sealed box. If anything your upper frequency was limited by the inductance and moving mass of your subwoofer.


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

qwertydude said:


> Port area is not what's limiting your upper bandwidth. Port area only affects your port gain. Unless your port tuning was tuned high to create a distinct peak at port tuning above the natural response of the subwoofer, port area has nothing to do with upper frequency response. That's all in the driver at that point. Above the tuning frequency of the box, the system essentially behaves like a sealed box. If anything your upper frequency was limited by the inductance and moving mass of your subwoofer.


Not completely true. I rebuilt the enclosure a few months later, same air space, same tuning, but work 12" per cube port vs the 16" that I had used before. The bandwidth opened up to 20-65hz and much flatter. I lost a little bit of output. Port area is a trick of the spl guys. The more port area they use, the greater the peak closer to tuning. I have an spl box for a DDZ 18 that's tuned to 33 with 20" port per cube. It plays nasty from 28-40. Also another enclosure with less port that opens it up to 25-60hz worth a flat response.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

nineball76 said:


> Not completely true. I rebuilt the enclosure a few months later, same air space, same tuning, but work 12" per cube port vs the 16" that I had used before. The bandwidth opened up to 20-65hz and much flatter. I lost a little bit of output. Port area is a trick of the spl guys. The more port area they use, the greater the peak closer to tuning. I have an spl box for a DDZ 18 that's tuned to 33 with 20" port per cube. It plays nasty from 28-40. Also another enclosure with less port that opens it up to 25-60hz worth a flat response.


I'd love to see this backed up. SPL guys talk about this ALL the time, but as QWERTYDUDE said and he is correct, standard speaker models DON'T show this happening. What likely is happening that accounts for their results is they are doing everything by ear and termlabs, which only do one frequency at a time, so they cant' see the full picture, and ears can trick you..

What they are likely hearing is port compression on the smaller port. They build setups tuned in the low to mid 30's for groundpouding, which generally has way more low end potential than upper end. Especially since they use woofers with higher MMS lower effeciency overall and high inductance. When you combine all those factors you end up with a system that can play really low very loud, but can only keep that kind of SPL up until cabin gain starts to give out, in most cars the last major peak in response is between50-55hz , above that cabin gain drops and it's mostly the woofer having do it by itself. When they use smaller ports at high output level the port compresses dropping their low end response, this makes it sound like the woofer is playing higher, when in fact they've simply evened out the response better at higher output levels, since the port is giving out earlier... Same reason they say it allows them to play below tuning better, the port is compressing so it isnt' letting the woofer fullly unload below tuning..

If these guys want higher bandwidth they should be tuning lower for increased bandwidth the correct way, but it's mid 30's tune or bust for most of these guys as the won't be "loud".


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm not saying that tuning has nothing to do with frequency response. But what it sounds like you're saying is that port size has nothing to do with it. If that were the case then I'd think there would be some people or manufacturers who compile lists of drivers and exact responses every driver will play at specific tuning. Ie, xcon tuned to 29 no matter port size will only play 25-50, 30 will only play 26-51 and so on. There's is no basic rule. Yes each driver has its limits. It can only play up to (x)dB, or can only play (y-z) hz, but you can help it achieve its limits by reducing or increasing port to allow or detract from its air movement. 

So in short, I'm kinda saying the same thing you are just in dumb ******* speak. Have a nice day


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## coomaster1 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi, I am interested in that better version of the WinISD facebook progam,but am not signed up to facebook,and am not interested in facebook. Can someone with facebook please post a link to the better version of the program. Also does the program tell you how much to polyfill the desired box,and where exactly to put the stuffing.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

nineball76 said:


> I'm not saying that tuning has nothing to do with frequency response. But what it sounds like you're saying is that port size has nothing to do with it. If that were the case then I'd think there would be some people or manufacturers who compile lists of drivers and exact responses every driver will play at specific tuning. Ie, xcon tuned to 29 no matter port size will only play 25-50, 30 will only play 26-51 and so on. There's is no basic rule. Yes each driver has its limits. It can only play up to (x)dB, or can only play (y-z) hz, but you can help it achieve its limits by reducing or increasing port to allow or detract from its air movement.
> 
> So in short, I'm kinda saying the same thing you are just in dumb ******* speak. Have a nice day


Port area affects port air velocity. Port air velocity can definitely affect frequency response by adding in distortion or chuffing if you go to small. Also if you go to small, there is a point where the box stops being a ported enclosure and starts to behave as a leaky sealed. Guess what that causes? A reduction in low end output like you get with a sealed box. So the upper bass is not overwhelmed by the lower frequencies.

The rules of thumb for port area are stupid. Use modeling software to model the sub and box under power. Keep port velocity around 20m/s at 2/3's power.


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