# Niche/Fringe Products



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm not sure if this has been discussed on here before, but why is the general perception in car audio that niche/fringe products are automatically better than mainstream/mass produced products?


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Mainstream Vs niche meaning kicker vs audio frog. Or skar vs stereo integrity. You gotta be a lil more specific in your meaning of mainstream and niche.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> Mainstream Vs niche meaning kicker vs audio frog. Or skar vs stereo integrity. You gotta be a lil more specific in your meaning of mainstream and niche.


Exactly that. Say Kicker vs AudioFrog. Does Kicker not have any products that are as good as or better than AudioFrog? Do JBL or Arc not have products that easily rival or surpass lesser known high end brands?


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## 1978monte (Aug 16, 2009)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Exactly that. Say Kicker vs AudioFrog. Does Kicker not have any products that are as good as or better than AudioFrog? Do JBL or Arc not have products that easily rival or surpass lesser known high end brands?


Kicker and Audio Frog target different crowds..


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

I don't think the best of kicker would compare to the worst of Audio frog. Kicker is built for the masses and never measure up to their own specs. Build quality on kicker speakers are also lacking. They are built to be on shelves in your local Audio shop and ppl that don't know any better hear a brand name and automatically think it's good. Im sure for them it's good, but when your trying to tune to a curve and get things sounding really good they will fall flat on their cones.

I've had a full on kicker install and most of those subs busted on rated power. More than 2, that's not a coincidence it's just bad business. Components sounded like crap even at moderate levels. All the audio frog gear I have has held up to all my abuse hours on end. My SQLs are taking double the rated power on a daily and don't even flinch. 


Those are just my thoughts on the subject I'm sure name brands like JL will hold their own against other niche brands but kicker n skar are built for a whole other crowd.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I don't think the best of kicker would compare to the worst of Audio frog. Kicker is built for the masses and never measure up to their own specs. Build quality on kicker speakers are also lacking. They are built to be on shelves in your local Audio shop and ppl that don't know any better hear a brand name and automatically think it's good. Im sure for them it's good, but when your trying to tune to a curve and get things sounding really good they will fall flat on their cones.
> 
> I've had a full on kicker install and most of those subs busted on rated power. More than 2, that's not a coincidence it's just bad business. Components sounded like crap even at moderate levels. All the audio frog gear I have has held up to all my abuse hours on end. My SQLs are taking double the rated power on a daily and don't even flinch.
> 
> ...


So they take double power


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

kiklop32 said:


> So they take double power


Stop it lol I'm not doing this with you again 😂 I'll rephrase it just for you.

They have double rated power available to them, But they never pull that much. Goodness.

Regardless kicker stuff is junk, and if they have double rated power available to them they will spontaneously combust into dust.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> they will spontaneously combust into dust.


Seen it with my own eyes. 😂


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I don't think the best of kicker would compare to the worst of Audio frog. Kicker is built for the masses and never measure up to their own specs. Build quality on kicker speakers are also lacking. They are built to be on shelves in your local Audio shop and ppl that don't know any better hear a brand name and automatically think it's good. Im sure for them it's good, but when your trying to tune to a curve and get things sounding really good they will fall flat on their cones.
> 
> I've had a full on kicker install and most of those subs busted on rated power. More than 2, that's not a coincidence it's just bad business. Components sounded like crap even at moderate levels. All the audio frog gear I have has held up to all my abuse hours on end. My SQLs are taking double the rated power on a daily and don't even flinch.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean for this to turn into a Kicker bashing thread and I noticed you singled out speakers, but said nothing about amplifiers. If everyone had the same problems with Kicker that you experienced, they'd be out of business. You also didn't say much about JBL or Arc.

Still not really an answer to my question. Thinking more along the lines of brands that are easily obtainable through a vast dealer network ( Alpine, Rockford, JBL, JL, Arc, etc.) not being as good as stuff that's harder to obtain ( Accuton, Purifi, ScanSpeak, etc.)


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Just my rambling thoughts on the subject.

Even some of the more “esoteric” brands are probably no better “quality” than the big box brands. They’re just harder to source because they’re made overseas and there may not be an established dealer network for those brands here in the states.

That being said, there are smaller brands (many of which are discussed here daily) that are a significant step-up in quality due to the company’s rigorous QC processes and extremely high audio reproduction/processing standards. Those are true “niche” products that typically wouldn’t be on an average consumer’s radar. A lot of folks here seek out such brands due to their known performance and quality. The same is true for home audio people.

There is nothing wrong with big box brands…they absolutely serve a purpose, and those brands service about 85% of the market (maybe more). As you stated, they wouldn’t be popular brands if they sold crap, relatively speaking. Their products do exactly what they are designed to do.

Not to offend the Honda fans on the board, but it’s kinda like Honda and Acura…but with even more difference. Probably more like Honda compared to BMW. The Honda will run forever and rarely let you down. The BMW is designed for a more demanding user. There are millions upon millions of Hondas running up and down the road…a lot less BMWs. In a lot of cases, it’s like comparing a Honda to a Ferrari. Again, nothing wrong with the Honda, but it ain’t no Ferrari and never will be.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> I didn't mean for this to turn into a Kicker bashing thread and I noticed you singled out speakers, but said nothing about amplifiers. If everyone had the same problems with Kicker that you experienced, they'd be out of business. You also didn't say much about JBL or Arc.
> 
> Still not really an answer to my question. Thinking more along the lines of brands that are easily obtainable through a vast dealer network ( Alpine, Rockford, JBL, JL, Arc, etc.) not being as good as stuff that's harder to obtain ( Accuton, Purifi, ScanSpeak, etc.)


I only speak on what I have experienced. That's why I talked about Kicker. I can't say JBL is junk because I've never owned a JBL item. Well, I did have a powered JBL sub. It was actually good for what it was. Served its purpose well.

I've had Kicker amps and I have nothing negative to say about them. It was cheap but held up well. Only gripe was the 25hz fix subsonic filter. Which is good for the ppl that don't know any better. Like I said targeted to a different crowd.

No one I know is I to car audio but ppl want talk about with me cuz they can hear it when ever I pull up. Let's say coworkers,

"hey David I can hear you bumping down the road. What you got in there?"

And when I say Helix, Audio frog, stereo integrity, etc.. They get confused 😕 then they say something like.

"Yea, I replaced my front and rear speakers with skar coaxial 3way speakers. It sounds really good."

I've tried explaining the concept of a SQ set up and they seemed interested but after discussing prices on things. They turn off their hearing. Ppl don't want to spend the money on car audio like that. That's why these "name brand" brands exists.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

saltyone said:


> Just my rambling thoughts on the subject.
> 
> Even some of the more “esoteric” brands are probably no better “quality” than the big box brands. They’re just harder to source because they’re made overseas and there may not be an established dealer network for those brands here in the states.
> 
> ...


No offense taken. Just cuz there's a Honda in my name doesn't really mean I'm a die hard fan. 😜 when I started here in this forum I need a little assistance on my terrible sounding, new to me Honda accord. I bought it to serve as a work horse/commuter. Like you said reliable transportation. If I had my way I would have replaced my V8 XC90 with a newer XC90.

I didn't realize that my pursuit for decent audio would turn into an obsession lol

Hondas have their purpose and so does kicker. But just don't mix Hondas with Kicker, no bueno


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## 1978monte (Aug 16, 2009)

Kicker makes solid amps and has for years..

Back in the Day with the Kicker ZR amps I'd take those over many of the "big dogs" such as Orion HCCA amps.

People thought the Orion HCCA amps were the best you can get and I didn't care for them. I ran the Kicker ZR amps.
Fast foward to the days of amp dynos and I see why I felt that way..

A Kicker ZR240 rated at 240 watts RMS easilly puts out over 500 watts rms and very reliable..
Orion HCCA 225 don't even do rated power (or any of the HCCA's) and were never reliable for me.


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## Sounds_Insane (8 mo ago)

Mass produced big box store brands are designed, engineered, manufactured and marketed with cost analysis in mind to be competitive to go after the bulk of the market. There are going to be compromises in a lot of areas to hit those targets all while being "good enough". They need them to be durable to last as long as possible to withstand abuse of those who do not know better and to build a following. (part of the reason Kicker amps have built in subsonic filters to protect their sub). Going back to the car reference, these are your basic Honda or Toyota, they do a lot of things well and last a long time, but some compromises are made to get them to their target buyer.

The Niche brands are going to focus on the rest of the market where money is less of a concern, your luxury car brand if you will.

The key is figuring out which of those niche brands are actually quality and well engineered vs. some personalized off the shelf components. There are a LOT of smaller companies out there, that's why most stick to established brands, even though there could be other brands with better products with less overhead and lower prices.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Think of it as a question of budget as a percentage. If Brand A invests more money in marketing than R&D and QC they are likely focusing on market share more than performance.
If Brand B invests more in R&D they are likely relying on performance to drive growth in a smaller segment of the market.

There are always exceptions and special circumstances. In the early days of car audio is would use some Pioneer speakers that were just rebranded TAD drivers.

In the end the real answer is what product offers the most value to the purchaser. That is an individual thing with price, performance, vehicle, overall system budget, speaker locations and personal preference being some of there influences.

I spent the most on speakers, looking for the least true distortion and skimped on pretty much everything else. To me nothing adds more distortion than the speakers so that deserved the most attention.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> Stop it lol I'm not doing this with you again 😂 I'll rephrase it just for you.
> 
> They have double rated power available to them, But they never pull that much. Goodness.
> 
> Regardless kicker stuff is junk, and if they have double rated power available to them they will spontaneously combust into dust.


Thx, that is much better now


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

There was a time when the big brands were kept in check by each other because big box stores had demo boards, and small box stores had listening rooms. A consumer could walk in and hear the difference between Boss, Alpine, Focal, Diamond, JL, listen to their full lineup and pick the best speaker in their budget. Products didn’t just have to look good, they had to perform as well. 

These days, a snazzy website and some key individuals who support your product and know how to install and demo it are all you need. 

You mention Honda vs Acura or Ferrari, but the difference here is that there is no 24 hours of LeMans, no Car & Driver or Road and Track. Who says AudioFrog is a Ferrari to Alpine or Focal’s Honda? People on the internet mostly.

i guess SPL competitions at least test subwoofers to their extreme, but even that is heavily based on install and enclosure design.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

> Orion HCCA 225 don't even do rated power (or any of the HCCA's) and were never reliable for me.


I think they do rated power, they just dont put out the numbers some of us thought they did (ie for a long time the 250 was considered a 1000W amp at 1 ohm). Orion never advertised that (but didn’t push back either).

Orion rated the hcca225 at 200W at 2 ohms and BigD dyno’d it at 292W reactive and 275 resistive into 2 ohms, so it met specs. People just invented bigger numbers and created a legend that the amps couldn’t live up to. Ie 500W at one ohm, etc.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

We're talking 30+ years ago. It's like trying to convince muscle car fans that just because they put a 600hp carburetor on their V8 doesn't mean they were making 600Hp. Guys hooked up 8 125w subs and they bumped, therefore it's a 1,000 watt amp right? Anyone can do that math, very few had the equipment to check that they were under 0.05% THD.


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## 1978monte (Aug 16, 2009)

SQ_Bronco said:


> I think they do rated power, they just dont put out the numbers some of us thought they did (ie for a long time the 250 was considered a 1000W amp at 1 ohm). Orion never advertised that (but didn’t push back either).
> 
> Orion rated the hcca225 at 200W at 2 ohms and BigD dyno’d it at 292W reactive and 275 resistive into 2 ohms, so it met specs. People just invented bigger numbers and created a legend that the amps couldn’t live up to. Ie 500W at one ohm, etc.


I could of sworn when I purchased a HCCA225 back in the day, it was being advertised as 400 watts @ 1 ohm bridged.
At this time I thought the 250 was 800 @ 1 ohm bridged.

I thought the 225 and 250 were 1 ohm stable bridged and the 2100 was 2 ohm stable bridged?

Were any of the HCCA amps 1 ohm stable bridged? I'm talking Digital reference and pop top era.


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## OzAudioGmc (Dec 27, 2020)




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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

But notice they did not provide a rated power below 2 ohms. Folks took the Orion ratings for, say, the hcca 250:

50x2 and 200x1 at 4 ohms
100x2 and 400x1 at 2 ohms

and then extrapolated that, and since it’s one ohm stable*, it must be 800x1 at 1 ohm. And then that became “it’s 1000x1 at 1 ohm”, because it’s the legend 

And then BigD tested it at [email protected] ohm or whatever (can’t take time to look it up right now, certainly less than 1000) and that surprised everyone. But bottom line was they exceeded their rated power, but not by as much as claimed.


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## OzAudioGmc (Dec 27, 2020)




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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

The Orion 225 HCCA was rated 25x2 @ 4ohms with 0.03% THD and was said to double it's power anytime the impedance was halfed down to 0.5 ohms. Total power was listed as 400 watts. Since we're on Orion, they did make an amp that easily exceeded it's rated power by a bunch, the Concept 97-3.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Enough about the Orion. 

I’m always curious about what parts of your install you “must” invest money into. Like, if you went to the same effort to deaden doors and treat surfaces, tune proper time alignment and EQ, but instead of these niche products you used Scar amps and speakers (for highs too). Quality/longevity aside, if and when it works, how close can you get the sound to something that costs twice, three times, five times as much? Can you tune/EQ your way out of low grade speakers?


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

You can definitely make entry level speakers and amplification sound good with proper tuning, but you can not tune $50 component speakers ran off of entry level amps to sound like Thesis or Utopia components ran off of Macintosh. If that was possible, no one would spend several thousand dollars on their front stage components and another few thousand on amps, and would just invest more into their DSP and tuning. The quality of install makes a HUGE difference also. Again, entry level can sound really good with a proper install and tune, and bespoke can just as easily sound like crap with a crap install.

Stating it in terms of percentages is difficult. There are so many variables. If I had to guess, I’d say the normal entry level speakers and amps have the potential to sound about 60% as good as some of the top of the line equipment. Maybe a little more due to the law of diminishing return. The devils in the details. All speakers can reproduce sound, some are able to do it many, many times better than “everyday” speakers. The old adage, “You get what you pay for” is as true in car audio as anything else…maybe more so.

You could never get close to overall “output” with lower end speakers and amps due to the speaker’s capacity and the amp’s output. Higher end equipment is usually designed to handle/produce more power with less distortion, hence more output. With what I’m about to have going to just my midbass’, I’d destroy a set of cheap woofers before I even finished the tune. I need that power, however, to produce the sound appropriately.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

But you could affectively run cheap amps capable of double the power at half their load, right? I’m not talking about putting manufacturers specs to the test.

I’m talking best amp out there powering cheap speakers, can you compromise a bit of front midbass, make the sub pick up the load, and get 90% there with a good ear for tuning?

Can you take the most powerful cheap amps and run them well below their limit and extract the same sound quality out of a top tier set of components? I’m talking about comparing that $4200 Tru amp I just saw posted (200w x 4 I think) against a Scar 200x4 for $399 or 4 Scar 500w monoblocks for $329/ea. 

I feel like the winner of those two tests will be cheap amps with quality speakers, but stuff like that intrigues me more than blindly assuming I would get $4200 of enjoyment out of a single amp. I want to hear the difference, with all other variables removed. 

You put a lot of faith in people with money to burn on audio equipment actually having an ear for what sounds good, and not just opening their wallet because someone on the internet said it was better. You certainly do “get what you pay for” up to a certain point, and from there, I feel like there is a massive flat line when it comes to the law of diminishing returns.


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## Hintzyboy (Mar 31, 2007)

Here's my (very long) take. 

A "mainstream" brand in pretty much any industry is run differently than a more niche or specialized brand. Large brands are generally focused on maximizing profits and volumes. Small brands care about that stuff, too, but the bottom line feeds into so many more decisions for the big guys.

They improve profit margins and scale by using cheaper parts and labor. By using big build houses that make products for many other companies, which can have an adverse effect on quality control. They design products for mass appeal rather than to excel at a particular task. They spend a higher percentage of a product's cost on marketing, and a lower percentage on R&D than a more specialized brand would.

Niche brands are often a lot closer to an enthusiast community. This puts them in a better position to cater to a specific application. Both because they have a more direct line to what the community wants, and because enthusiasts are generally willing to spend more money for a superior product.

This doesn't mean that mainstream brands can't or don't make good products. You just usually pay more for a given level of quality. For example, I think most people would agree that JL Audio makes quality products. But the prices are pretty outrageous for what you get. A 12" W6v3 retails for nearly $900. The W6 has a pretty long reputation as a solid performer for people focused on sound quality, but there are a number of products that are competitive and cost way less. An SI SQL 12 costs less than $400 at full price, and you seem often get them much cheaper (the current holiday sale has them priced at just $240). An ID Max is less than $500.

Money not a concern? You can get way better speakers than what the mainstream brands offer. Even the higher end mainstream brands aren't going to make something like the Brax Matrix series or the Accuton ceramic drivers. There just aren't enough people out there willing to spend thousands of dollars on speakers to make it worth the investment for a large company. 

But what if you just want to add some bass, and don't care too much about sound quality? A 12" Kicker L7S retails for about $330. You can get a Sundown SA12 for under $250 (Sundown is a bit more mainstream now, but they started out as a niche brand on the forums 15 years ago).

Want big power? A Rockford Fosgate T2500-1bdCP is going to set you back $1300. But a Down4Sound JP23 costs a whopping $1000 less. Pay the extra $50, and you get a 2-year 0.5 ohm warranty. The JP23 has been dynoed at nearly 4kw at that load.

You can make a similar argument on install accessories. I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who will claim that Stinger Pro 1/0 OFC is in any way superior to KnuKonceptz Kolossus 1/0 OFC. But the Stinger is more than double the cost. 

Now, there are some mainstream brands that still make high quality products at competitive prices, but that's often because they compete almost exclusively with other mainstream brands. Look at the head unit market, and it's pretty much just a bunch of legacy companies (Pioneer, Alpine, etc), a few bargain basement brands (Jensen, Boss), and a thousand nameless Chinese brands selling Android units on Alibaba or eBay. The more respected of those Android products, like the Joying units, can be almost as expensive as the legacy brands, depending on the model.

Last thought: I wouldn't necessarily consider Skar to be a "mainstream" brand. They are definitely popular, especially with young people who don't have a lot of disposable funds. But they are still a pretty small company, and I would argue they are more a "flavor of the month" brand. I'll be interested to see how they fare in another 10 years as their brand strategy of "buy everything from a cheap Chinese build house and market the **** out of it online" isn't the most difficult strategy to copy. If someone can order the same exact products with a different case/logo (which a LOT of brands do), you are kind of limited on where you can go. You can only get so cheap, and it's not hard to send some free amps to some popular youtubers to fabricate a reputation.


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## Sounds_Insane (8 mo ago)

Hintzyboy said:


> it's not hard to send some free amps to some popular youtubers to fabricate a reputation.


I used to be a fan of Kicker, I owned some of the gold letter subs before I even had a car and have run their stuff on and off since, probably more to do with nestolgia than their products. But they are going crazy with the marketing and sending "review" equipment to their inner circle of YouTubers to review, and never a negative word is spoken. They've stooped down to the levels of Skar, Sundown and JP, afraid of losing market share with them, not to mention selling their stuff at Wal-Mart. It's left a bad taste in my mouth that I'll probably never get over.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

chuyler1 said:


> Enough about the Orion.
> 
> I’m always curious about what parts of your install you “must” invest money into. Like, if you went to the same effort to deaden doors and treat surfaces, tune proper time alignment and EQ, but instead of these niche products you used Scar amps and speakers (for highs too). Quality/longevity aside, if and when it works, how close can you get the sound to something that costs twice, three times, five times as much? Can you tune/EQ your way out of low grade speakers?


My philosophy is to spend most of the budget on limiting distortion to reasonable levels as much as possible. The past of the system that products the most distortion by far is speakers. Then I focused on installing them in a way to maximize their positive aspects and limit reflections. 
Send them enough power, a source for content and give me a way to tune it and the results should be solid. From that point I can tackle the little things until I hit the point of diminishing return.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I might not have considered Skar a mainstream brand either, and their strategy is already being copied by a few other brands getting hawked by YouTubers, but if you search FB marketplace and Craigslist these days you’re gonna find a ton of their branded equipment. Perhaps they just target an audience with poor financial planning skills, but for every kicker, RF, and JL product I see listed, there is also a used Scar box or subwoofer or amp available to buy dirt cheap if you want it. It was so prevalent I had to read up on them to figure out what I missed (not much as it turns out)


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## abbispa (Feb 24, 2015)

"It is The fool who looks for logic inside the cambers of the human heart" i think Mark Twain once said.

I never poke fun (or act self righteous) of a man for spending money on his hobby. For as stupid as you or i feel for him doing whatever their doing they thank you and i are just as stupid.

To most we generally think the more esoteric the more performance, mostly its about pride.


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## Hintzyboy (Mar 31, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> I might not have considered Skar a mainstream brand either, and their strategy is already being copied by a few other brands getting hawked by YouTubers, but if you search FB marketplace and Craigslist these days you’re gonna find a ton of their branded equipment. Perhaps they just target an audience with poor financial planning skills, but for every kicker, RF, and JL product I see listed, there is also a used Scar box or subwoofer or amp available to buy dirt cheap if you want it. It was so prevalent I had to read up on them to figure out what I missed (not much as it turns out)


They aren't the first company to do this, and few have lasting success. While the marketing wasn't as easy 20 years ago, you still had a handful of popular brands that were targeted at the lower budget crowd. Think modern Soundstream, Audiobahn, newer Hifonics. It was more often a situation where a formerly-respected old school brand got bought out and cheapened by new owners, rather than a brand starting at the bottom and staying there. But the strategy was similar. Put a bunch of cheap products on discount websites, spend a bunch of ad money in the magazines to get good reviews. Advertise big numbers.

Most of those brands either went away, got absorbed, or just got relegated to swap meet status.


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## Genesis (6 mo ago)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I only speak on what I have experienced. That's why I talked about Kicker. I can't say JBL is junk because I've never owned a JBL item. Well, I did have a powered JBL sub. It was actually good for what it was. Served its purpose well.
> 
> I've had Kicker amps and I have nothing negative to say about them. It was cheap but held up well. Only gripe was the 25hz fix subsonic filter. Which is good for the ppl that don't know any better. Like I said targeted to a different crowd.
> 
> ...


I have lots of high end amps. Kickers older amps are absolutely as.good as them. Frankly, your equipment problems with kicker drivers sounds like an installation error. Ive helped many friends install kicker subs and speakers. Every one of them has worked fine. (Although in general im not a fan of thier sound)


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Genesis said:


> I have lots of high end amps. Kickers older amps are absolutely as.good as them. Frankly, your equipment problems with kicker drivers sounds like an installation error. Ive helped many friends install kicker subs and speakers. Every one of them has worked fine. (Although in general im not a fan of thier sound)


Not user error the damn sub started rattling like crazy l and lost a bunch of output. Their new stuff sux. I didn't clip it cuz I set may gains the DMM method with a 0db test tone and it was way before clipping. Didn't smoke it, it just stop working properly out of no where. And this was their top of the like Q L7 the CVX I have sounded better than that one and never gave issues. But I had it on way less than rated power. Just saying, kicker stuff is junk for the price you pay.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> Not user error the damn sub started rattling like crazy l and lost a bunch of output. Their new stuff sux. I didn't clip it cuz I set may gains the DMM method with a 0db test tone and it was way before clipping. Didn't smoke it, it just stop working properly out of no where. And this was their top of the like Q L7 the CVX I have sounded better than that one and never gave issues. But I had it on way less than rated power. Just saying, kicker stuff is junk for the price you pay.


Kicker would be out of business if the products they sold did what you are describing.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Kicker would be out of business if the products they sold did what you are describing.


My experience with them ruined my outlook of the brand. Just cuz I had bad woofer doesn't mean other ppl have. Their customer service was great, they took the woofer back paid for the return and gave me a full refund. Kinda like they have alot of experience with the situation. 

I was all about Kicker, my first build in my accord was full kicker. But when it was time to step up they were not where near with the top contenders. My childhood that's all I ever looked up to cuz every one in my neighborhood were rocking kickers and setting of alarms. Kicker has been around a long time and will never go anywhere. My buddy had 2 15" L5s in the back of a big Ole bronco and this thing would shake my apartment building whenever he came to pick me up. My l7 didn't even come close when it was working properly but it didn't sound bad. 

The shop that did my Kicker install by my house has a wall filled with Kicker gear and they sell like st tacos all day long. They are right next to the 711 I visit daily and the shop is always full. 

The average person that just wants a quick upgrade and wants to buy name Brand go to a shop and buy Kicker then call it a day. Fronts sound better than stock and they got some bass and their happy. But ppl like us that are willing to spend the equivalent of a decent used car on audio gear don't even give Kicker a second look. Why? Cuz its junk, and you can get better for less if you wanted to do budget friendly. I rather run my skar VFX than any Kicker sub. I would buy components from CDT than run Kicker components. Amps? They are actually decent I would run them all day. 

Lol sorry for the rant... I have issues


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## 1978monte (Aug 16, 2009)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Kicker would be out of business if the products they sold did what you are describing.


Yet there is brands that sell alot of junk and are very popular in todays world.
IMO their is nothing wrong with Kicker, I just don't run them myself because it's kinda boring..
Kicker was one of the only brands sold in my town from the 1990's till present so you see alot of it around here
and it's nice to have something different..


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

1978monte said:


> Yet there is brands that sell alot of junk and are very popular in todays world.
> IMO their is nothing wrong with Kicker, I just don't run them myself because it's kinda boring..
> Kicker was one of the only brands sold in my town from the 1990's till present so you see alot of it around here
> and it's nice to have something different..


I guess that's where I've been lucky in 29 years. What is this "junk" you speak of? I've used many different products from many different brands and, aside from the very occasional defective product, the product failures were my doing. I understand wanting to have something different than most, but that doesn't make an Aston Martin superior to a Honda nor does it make the Honda junk.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Ice Audio and Lightning Audio come to mind for the "junk list." They were sold at Meijers (walmart competitor)


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## 1978monte (Aug 16, 2009)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> I guess that's where I've been lucky in 29 years. What is this "junk" you speak of? I've used many different products from many different brands and, aside from the very occasional defective product, the product failures were my doing. I understand wanting to have something different than most, but that doesn't make an Aston Martin superior to a Honda nor does it make the Honda junk.


There's plenty of junk out there.. You have never seen a amp the claims 2000 watts but has 40 amps of fusing?

I never said Kicker is junk if that is what you are getting at, so not sure what you mean comparing Ashton Martin to Honda.. I wouldn't want either anyhow.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

1978monte said:


> There's plenty of junk out there.. You have never seen a amp the claims 2000 watts but has 40 amps of fusing?
> 
> I never said Kicker is junk if that is what you are getting at, so not sure what you mean comparing Ashton Martin to Honda.. I wouldn't want either anyhow.


Yes, I’ve seen overrated products. There is a lot of that on the market. It may not produce rated power, but what is it’s failure/defective rate? Amplifiers are like engines though, not light bulbs. Your amp might be capable of producing 1000 watts, but what percentage of the time is it? Nissan claims my car produces 179hp, I’ve never put it on the dyno to check, nor do I care. I start it and it gets me where I’m going. What it’s capable of is irrelevant. Same with amp dynos. I don’t drive around listening to a tone with a resistive load.

I didn’t say you said Kicker was junk. I will say our definitions of junk varies.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

Also, it looks like this guy cleaned house with an OEM source, OEM processor, and there’s even some OEM speakers used. There doesn’t appear to be anything special about his sub amp either. So, does niche=better?









Natan Budiono 2022 SQ World Champion competition car...







www.diymobileaudio.com


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