# 1993 BMW 5 series wagon



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Hey guys, I have decided to start a build thread for my e34 5 series wagon.

I have read a bunch on here and posted a few times with the questions, and got a few answers over my head. With that said, this is my very first audio build. For better or worse, my personality is overly ambitious and imaginative, so this build will reflect that.

I have gotten pretty far in the build, but wanted to go back and document the pictures I have taken. There have been a few blunders. 

A few things about the car that will give some insight into the direction I chose for the build. It has a lot of panel area. What I mean by this is that the door panels are huge, the kick panels are huge, there is panel area in the wagon portion along with hatch. To top it off, it has a double sliding twin sun roof. Whats this means is there is tons of things that can rattle and shake and make obnoxious noise.

I wanted to do a fairly simple build in regards to components. One sub, two way components with passive, one 3 or 5 channel amp. I also did not like the idea of how much time and money would need to be spent to deaden the entire car , if I followed a traditional build (sub in back, mids in doors, ect). 

So, what to do? One of the good things is that it has a huge kick panel area to work with and lots of dead space in the lower A-pillars. This dead space is .3 to .4 cubic feet. This is great, as it will allow me to put 6.5 mids in the kicks as opposed to the doors. No need to go overboard deadening and reinforcing the door panels. As far as the sub, again with all the panel area to rattle, a traditional rear mounted sub would cause all sorts of headaches with "up front bass" and stage. The simple solution, is to physically place the sub up front. This placement is simple in regard to stage issues, but extremely complicated in regards to fabrication. The sub is a single 12", and will reside in the middle of the dash area. This placement will require a custom dash and some custom hvac work.

The materials area mainly composites. E-glass, some Kevlar, pcv foam core and epoxy. Again not your traditional stuff, but needed for this build. At this point, most of you are probably thinking, a "traditional build" would be just as expensive, if not cheaper, less time consuming, and over all easier than one with loads of custom work and exotic materials. Can't argue with the logic, but please go and read the last line of second paragraph.

Pics to come.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

So, here is a brief overview of everything and my thought process along the way. I really wanted to do a front mounted sub. It wasn't the original plan, but the more I read, and the more I looked at the issues with the car, I had decided I would give it a shot to in attempt to avoid other issues. I already had purchased the sub prior to this decision. 

The first step was to rip out the dash to see how much room I had.










Removing the dash top gave the appearance of a lot of space to work with. Unfortunately, most of that dead space was taken up by a snakes nest of duct work.

So I decided to see how much volume I could get with a faux glove box.





















Rough calculations on the above mock up is not promising for this sub. I realized at this point I had a very bad "feel" for cubic dimensions. Notice where the sub is sitting in the last pic? Well I decided that would be a better place for the sub. The problem is that there is not any room there either.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

I like this. here's a subscription submittal


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

So I decided to make more room. At this point I should mention that the dash pad was in bad shape to begin with. It had shrunk and had cracked at a few places. I survey of the local wreckers led me to believe all dash pads of this vintage are in identical or even worse shape. So, I had planned to do a recover, or create a custom dash pad in any case.

The next step was much more radical.










Look more space! If you think this is crazy, there are some other reasons the box was removed. If you notice in the earlier picture there are some problems with the hvac box. Its a bit hard to see but all (and I mean all) of the seals on the box are disintegrating. 

Edit, better pic of the problem.










Nothing was properly sealed any more, which allowed the air to go wherever the least resistance. So, I had decided the whole box needed to be resealed. But with the extra space my head started turning.

Downfire anyone?


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

I will be following this. Good luck with it. That's a big decision to make but if it all works out you should be very pleased. Have fun with it.


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Pretty ambitious for your first build...massive props! 
Tuned in for more. Good luck!


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow this thread has all sorts of Win possibilities. Looking forward to more updates.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Thats begin for an IB install!!!


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

sydmonster said:


> Thats begin for an IB install!!!


IB vented to the outside would be awesome!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

BowDown said:


> IB vented to the outside would be awesome!


Without question that was one of the first things that entered my head. If not IB than AP. I, in fact, posted about this possibility. The main thing that came into question was how to prevent exterior noise from entering back from the engine bay through the woofer and into cabin. Its not like that goes into trunk space. That is the back of the engine you can see. _Although_, there is a vented dead space in between the interior fire wall and engine bay fire wall, where all the wiper arm garbage sits. I'll try to get a pic up of that.

That pass through is huge! I have a pic somewhere of the panel on the engine bay side that covers the hole next to a measuring stick for reference. I will need to get that up and see if you guys can come up with any solutions. 

Seriously, let me know if you guys can come up with any ideas for AP or IB.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

sydmonster said:


> Thats begin for an IB install!!!


Good eye!


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

This is going to be a crazy one....nice...GL


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Ok, first up is a pic of the pass through panel so you guys can see how big it is.










Again, any AP or IB possibilities I will still consider. That panel is about 27" x 9.5"


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Since I was still toying with sub woofer ideas, I decided to move onto the kicks.

First shot of the passenger side kick area. That box was tucked into the upper kick panel and will be relocated to provide more air space. A similar box is found on the drivers side.










The volume of the kick panel continues all the way up the A-pillar.


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Orion525iT said:


> Again, any AP or IB possibilities I will still consider. That panel is about 27" x 9.5"


3 x 6.5" subs in a row


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

My first idea was to do more of a flat panel to mount for the mids in the kicks. The idea was to create a bit more volume, make the speakers more visually transparent in the car interior, and to make covering with vinyl an easier task, all without impeding too much on precious leg room. 

The first step was to use painters tape to tape up the kick panel area.

Drivers side










Pass side. Notice I have started to clip up some style 7781 E-glass just to test how the glass will lay up.










The next step was to slather on some carnauba. Wait for it to dry, and follow with the cheapest super hold hairspray I could find (PVA). Together it makes for excellent release after laminating.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

The drivers kick panel after a few layers of E-glass. Notice the paper clip holding the glass to the panel. The car was actually jack up on the passenger side to help the glass lay flush against the kick area.










The drivers side kick after curing and removal. A rough cut out has been made for the kick panel opening. The flat panel to the left is 3/8" PVC foam laminated on both sides with 3 layers of 7781 E-glass. The black sharpie line denotes the placement and angel the the flat laminate peice will be epoxied to the kick panel mold.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Better shot of the flat panel laminate. That laminate is extremely stiff!










Panels placed over and screwed down to the kick panel molds.










The laminate panels were epoxied down and faired with a slurry made from the laminating resin, hardener and colloidal silica. 

Picture of the slurry (actually more of a dry micro)










Fairing slurry in place.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

What did you use for the core material in the flat panel?


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> What did you use for the core material in the flat panel?


As mentioned in one of the picture captions, it is 3/8 PVC foam.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

SORRY, I was looking at the photo of the laminated part and didn't see its caption mentioning it was 3/8s PVC foam. It was mentioned in the photo above the part and I missed that.


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## jaikai (Aug 8, 2011)

You weren't kidding when you said you're overly ambitious and imaginative - looking forward to seeing more.


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## hybridspl (May 9, 2008)

Cool build and ambitious too! I love old German cars and can't wait to see how this turns out.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Suggestion for IB.
You got the location aready. Load the sub agains the transmission tunnel/carpet. Mount it so its about 2"'s off the carpet, then a fibreglass pod venting to the engine bay. The sub has to just see the outside. Fit bigges sub you can, I recomend an 18".


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## krobertson (Aug 16, 2011)

Nice! Hadn't seen that laminant process before for the kick panels... like it.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

sydmonster said:


> Suggestion for IB.
> You got the location aready. Load the sub agains the transmission tunnel/carpet. Mount it so its about 2"'s off the carpet, then a fibreglass pod venting to the engine bay. The sub has to just see the outside. Fit bigges sub you can, I recomend an 18".


That's a good idea, but the major issue remains. How to acoustically isolate the woofer/vent from engine and road noise. That is really the only thing that prevents IB.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Drivers side kick panel pod. The edge has been filled and faired with body filler.










The passenger side pod with speaker in place. Notice how to panel conforms to the wiring that runs across the foot well. Tweeter is just hanging out for now.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Moving onto the sub...

Lots of things to consider here. After toying with every idea under the sun, I think I settled on a design. I really wanted to try IB utilizing the giant opening in the firewall. But, there did not seem to be any way to acoustically isolate the sub from the engine bay. 

Down firing into the transmission tunnel was a tasty idea. The main problem is that it would require a complete rework of the HVAC. Complete and total custom work with relocation. It could be pulled off, but I couldn't stomach the amount of work required.

I finally settled on a ported box firing into the windshield. This would allow me to retain the stock HVAC box and location. This will, however, still require modification of all venting and ducting (A huge undertaking by itself).


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

So, up fire into the windshield and ported. Ideal ported box size is around 2.25 cubic feet. That's a whole bunch of real estate!!

The first step was to start mocking up a custom dash. I used MDF as a basic template for mock up. The original dash pad was used to trace the contour of the windshield to dash pad interface. This is much more difficult than one would think as it was impossible to place the dash OEM dash pad flush against the MDF sheet.

After some work, and rework, I finally achieved a decent template.










The next step was to make a cut out for the dash cluster.










Another view of the mock up


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Next step was the cut out for the sub. Rectangular hole to the right is for the cluster. A 1x4 has been screwed into the MDF for cross bracing and to keep the MDF sheet as flat as possible.










The MDF template placed back into position.










Sub in place!










The picture is from the under side of the MDF template. The speaker cage is sitting extremely close to the upper fire wall cross member. The sub will need to be located higher and slightly further back from the fire wall for more clearance. More clearance is needed because some deadening material will be added.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Now that I have a rough template of the custom dash box, I can start constructing the dash.

The first step is to make a mold for the upper portion of the dash box. This upper portion will effectively serve as the dash pad once it is padded and covered. The mold is constructed out of regular blue foam (styrene) found at the local Lowes.










I then used small pieces of the foam to contour the ends of the dash mold. The contour was accomplished by scoring the end pieces half way through the thickness of the foam with a razor knife. The scored pieces were then gently bent to the contour.










Once the contour pieces were trimmed, I then used plaster of paris as a filler. I choose plaster of paris because, it is readily available, to cures quickly, sands easily, is durable, and will _not_ react with the foam. Using body filler would melt the styrene!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Once the plaster was dry, it was sanded and shaped. The mold is essentially completed at this point. In the next step, peel ply is placed over the mold.










In the contoured areas, the peel ply is relief cut and then taped, so that it will lay flat against the mold.










Some wax followed by PVA over the taped areas. Mold prep is done!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Next step is to start layup!

This is 17.6 oz knitted E-glass. Its a bit stronger and stiffer than standard woven E-glass.










2 layers of knitted E-glass after lay up. The fabric becomes translucent when properly wetted out.










The lay up moved outside. Notice the finger prints? The epoxy was still a bit "green" at this stage. Not too good to introduce contaminants (dirty fingers) to a composite. But I'm not building a airplane here, so there is some room for error.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

As with the peel ply, relief cuts were needed to get the 17.6oz E-glass to lay flat. The sharpie lines show where reinforcement pieces of light weight E-glass will be placed to compensate for the relief cuts.










Reinforcement pieces in place.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

The next step goes into the realm of high tech composites. Over the E-glass is a layer of 5.8 oz Kevlar. Why Kevlar? Well there are a few reasons. The first one is safety. Both glass and carbon have catastrophic failure modes. What this means is that if they are subject to a force that exceeds their strength, they will fail instantly. In the case of both glass and carbon, this means lots of shards, fragments and small particles at failure. All of which could potentially be extremely sharp and hazardous. So, this is not such a good thing to have inches away from your face. Nobody plans on an accident, but it can happen anytime anywhere.

The failure mode of Kevlar is quite different in that it deforms at failure. This is why, in part, it is used in the impact regions of high performance race vehicles. So, the idea is to encase the glass box/dash with Kevlar as an added level of protection. It should do a good job of retaining the fragments, shards, particles, in the case of a serious accident. 

In addition, Kevlar by itself is very stiff, so it will added to the structural stiffness and strength. It also dampens composite laminates, which is why it is often used in aircraft cowling.

Kevlar before laminating.










Kevlar after laminating. The Kevlar does not turn translucent like the glass, so it can be difficult to see if a proper wet out is achieved. It does, however, turn a golden color.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Time for mold separation.

For some reason, the laminated was trying to lift, around the vertical surfaces, during the curing process. Luckily, I had intentionally over-sized the laminate so lay up could proceed without worrying about perfect positioning of the fabric (It is very difficult to position a precision cut piece of fabric) So, I was able to flip the mold over and staple down the laminate to the under side of the mold to stop the lifting. The stapling was done while the laminate was still very "green" and pliable. This image shows a few of the staples removed in prep for mold separation.










The under side of the mold after some sanding and trimming of the excess laminate. 










Close up of the trimming/sanding progress.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

After several minutes of prying, pulling, sweating, and cussing, the dash top was separated from the mold! The plastic you see is the peel ply.










Beeeer!!!!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

The laminate at this point is not very stiff across that large horizontal section. It will need to be reinforced if it is going to support and house a sub woofer.

I place ribbing across the length of the underside. The ribbing is made of pvc foam, glued down with the epoxy fairing putty I used in the kick panel construction. 










Then the ribs are glassed.










At this point I should mention this was not the best way to run the ribbing. It may have been better to lay down a solid layer of pvc foam and then glass over. It would have required far less time and may have been just as stiff with proper layering and orientation of the glass. As it stands, the ribs and glass seen above are still not stiff enough, so more work will be needed.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Of course I want to follow a BMW build...good luck!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

More work on the kick panels. Actually, I am making another set of kicks. Why? There are a few reasons. First, there is an issue with the passenger side kick panel pod I built. It seems that I pulled the mold from the car before the epoxy had set properly. It was still cold out when I did the kicks (50-60s F). They did sit overnight. However, when I tried to re-install the passenger kick pod after completing the flat panel front, I found that it no long fit properly to the A-pillar. In essence, it had warped somewhere in the process. So, a refit was in order. Secondly, I just didn't like them. I can't explain why really, they looked pretty good, and they sound nice even without finishing. But, something just didn't work for me aesthetically.

So kick panel part deux.

Here are the stock kick panels with enlarged holes cut. The angled rings are MDF of course. The semicircle blue pieces are 1/8 pvc foam cut to fit against the MDF rings and the stock kicks. Excuse the mess. Three dogs (250lbs worth!) make a hell of a mess.










Blue pvc foam epoxied in place.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Some body filler, some sanding and some beer.










Some 7781 E-glass cut in small pieces for easy contouring. I actually found with the other kick panel that I could use much larger pieces, and they would conform well. This is a pic of the drivers side with dead pedal. The previous pics are the passenger side. Several layers of 7781 are used. The entire kick panel was also over layed two layers of 7781 for added stiffness.










The finished kick. The kick was covered with 1/8 foam and then urethane upholstery. For clarity, this is the passenger kick, not the drivers side show directly above. PS, I don't smoke, those cigs were left behind from a party.


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## hybridspl (May 9, 2008)

Looks great so far and makes me want an old BMW even more!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Thank you!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

More pics of the top of the dash that will also serve as part pf the box!

From the top.










From around the arm rest area.










Another angle.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Here is a good pic from the underside. Notice how much more clearance there is for the sub when compared to the picture of the sub in the MDF template, that I posted earlier.

What you can see directly under the sub is the stock hvac box. About half of the box has been removed. What is left, is the portion that houses the evap core and heater core. All the vents and associated dampers, which will eventually be attached to the box in the picture, will most likely need to be modified or custom made. 

You can also see the cluster lens to the left above the steering column. This will be the approximate location of the gauge cluster.










The stock radio bezel and hvac controls will be retained and located as seen in the picture, but higher up.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Today, I started with the under dash section. I used a large sheet of Lowes blue styrene and scored it with an Olfa rotary cutter. I then used the MDF piece that I created for the glove box/sub mock up as a template to make spars out of the styrene.

The idea was to bend the scored styrene sheet around the spars to create the under dash. Sounds easy, but it wasn't. The styrene sheet resisted bending much more than I anticipated. In addition, it was very difficult to secure the sheet to the spars. I tried hot glue, but that just melted the styrene. I ended up using screws every 1/2 inch or so. Even so it was, very, very labor intensive process. Something tells me, a different material may have done much better. But its all good, I am heading deep into uncharted territory. Its all part of the learning curve.










Here is a good pic of all the screws and the first spar.










Pic form the backside.










Pic with all 5 spars in place. Notice all the screws .










And from the back.


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## pajeroklassik (Aug 24, 2011)

Nice progression, I'd be very interested to see how it'll look like when its all done! Good luck!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Did a bunch of work on the under dash portion. Pretty exhausting work. Lots of sanding followed by lots of lay up. Again, I think I should have gone about making the mold a bit differently. I am willing to bet that two plywood spars and maybe some thin luan plywood or similar would have done better. But who knows? Maybe next time, 

This is a picture of the under dash. The duct tape on the mold is helping to make sure the foam stays in its proper contour. 










As with the upper dash, I have used plaster of paris as a filler and to even out the contour.










Nearly two hours worth of sanding and sweating, and the mold is ready to go. If you notice in the middle, I have not sanded that area smooth. It is ok though, because that is where the radio and hvac controls will go. That center area will also be blended into the center console. So, the mold does not need to be prefect there. Home made sanding block next to mold.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Prepping the mold. It looks nice and shiny! What you are actually seeing is peel ply.










The lay up. Three layers of 17.6 oz knitted E-glass. Each layer is orientated with the fibers in different directions. The blue sharpie in the middle says "top". This is so I would know which way to face the fabric to ensure that I get the proper bias.


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## moefi (Jul 26, 2011)

nice job so far


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

moefi said:


> nice job so far


Thanks!

Things seem to be coming together nicely. Now that I have the major dash sections laminated, I can start to piece the box together. The next major piece will be laminated in the car over the upper firewall section. I plan to provide about 1/2" or so of space between the upper firewall sheet metal so that sound deadening material can be placed in between. I think I will try carpet underlay to conform to all the strange angles and contours of the upper firewall and then laminate over that. I will also need to box in the hvac system.

I plan to laminate the vents and ducting for the hvac system as part of the box. It will be a bit tricky. But the main reason for doing this is that, if done the way I want, the vents will add to the rigidity and strength of the box. It will also allow me to save on materials. The major issue will be mating the ducting to to the hvac. I plan to use a large flange section with weather stripping as a seal. This is so positioning will not need to be perfect.

I am still undecided with regards to the port location. There is not enough room on top to place a single round port. Two round ports may work. Another idea I had was to use a slot port aimed down at the transmission tunnel and vented where the center console meets the dash. I suppose I might have issues with cancellation and such with that. But I like it from a design stand point. I will ask the experts here on opinions of this design when the time comes around.

The sub box and dash at this point is more like sculpture than a set of engineering plans. I have a rough idea in my head of how things will go together. Ultimately, I will be piecing it together bit by bit. The dash/sub box will be made so that the entire box piece can be removed as one part. Once the glass box is made as a basic lay up, it I will use pvc foam as a core material and lay down several more layers of glass and Kevlar. A note about the Kevlar. I am going to switch to Twaron. It is chemically similar to Kevlar and has nearly identical properties. However, it is half to price of Kevlar. Sorry Dupont.

Hope to make some good progress today!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Made some decent progress today. Its around 89 F with a good breeze. Its been a very long time since the high was only in the upper 80's. It's been one hell of a hot summer.

I pulled the under dash section from the mold. I then cut the section in half so I could fit it into the car and upper dash section. I was able to fit the passenger side with ease. The drivers side has proven to be more challenging. I have to make a bunch of cut outs for the lower section on the drivers side because of the steering column, pedals, steering shaft, electronics and all the associated brackets. 


The passenger side. If you notice in this picture the drivers section is not positioned properly yet. Still have some trimming to do to get it to fit better.










Drivers side.










Angle shot.










Pic from the inside. The glove box area will be boxed from about the position of the firewall opening to the right side lower A-pillar.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

This picture shows how the box matches the door contour and the contour of the original dash. Once the dash sub box is padded and covered, it will perfectly match the contour of the door where you can see the black sharpie line.










The excess glass above the yellow dash top will be trimmed and blended of course.










Pic from out side the car.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Next step is to start the dash center section. This is where the hvac controls, radio and vents will be located. The center section will be blended into the rear section of the stock center console and arm rest. Once that is completed, I will make brackets for the lower dash portion and bolt it to the stock dash mounts on both lower A-pillars. At this point, the lower dash should be stiff enough to support itself and I will be able to remove the upper section and start working on the sub box from the inside.

Then I should be able to remove the entire dash sub box from the car. I will then reinforce the box with pvc foam as a core, and lay down several layers of Twaron (Kevlar) over the entire box.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Nothing too exciting over the last few days. Most of the progress was conceptual, I but I did manage some actual work. At this point, its more like putting together a jig saw puzzle, and then taking it apart again, and back together...repeat. Lots of fitting, disassembly, trimming, measuring, assembly, and general head scratching. 

This is where I was measuring to make the center opening larger for the center console, hvac controls and radio. You can see that I have now screwed the top dash box part to the under dash section. 










Beginning of the frame up of the center section.










Pic of the dash with center section framed and under dash sections reattached. The molds used for the parts are standing next to the dash box. Next step is to place the box back in the car. Once back in the car, I can start to work the contours of the center section and blend it into the dash. The lower center section will be made to fit a modified stock console. The stock center dash and stock console are driver orientated and asymmetrical. However, the new center section and modified stock console will not be driver orientated and will be symmetric.


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## SSexpo03 (Jul 30, 2010)

Pretty slick work there, haven't seen a custom built dash in awhile. Still have a long way to go on that build but good luck.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

No new pictures for now. I left my camera charger in NY when on vacation, and my 95lb mutt stepped on my android phone and crushed the touch screen. So no photos.

I did get the center section laminated. I made larger cut outs so the box can slip in and out of the car more easily. I put the kicks back in, wired the amp to a battery, and used my desk top as a sound source. I stuck the 12" in the dash top and then placed the box back in the car. Played "Lotus Flower" by Radiohead and "Brush the Heat" by Little Dragon. Gave it a listen.

First impressions: I have very good stage height and width. Height is damn near eye level! I was able to run the sub up to 125hz, and that for some reason seemed to pull the stage even higher and gave it more center. It sounded pretty darn good considering the box is not even finished by any stretch (it is only three sided). However, the open side faces the firewall.

I think at this point I am experiencing some "blur" of the stage image. The vocals do not seem to be as centered as I would have liked. It may be because the mids are tucked pretty far under the dash, in the kicks, and I am therefore getting a lot of reflection off the underside of the fiberglass dash sections. I really hope that the layer of acoustic foam I plan to lay down over the entire dash box will absorb most of the reflections. I suppose it could be an issue with source material.

I am hoping to somehow rework the stock hvac baffles so I have control over airflow to the vents. But even with the custom dash, space is precious. I hope to get things figured out in this regard by the weekend once I actually get the hvac box back in the car permanently.

I am most likely going to use spray foam to fill the glove box area to get the contours. With the lower dash section in place, there does not seem to be very much room to work in the car as I had planed. 

Thats all for now.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Nice progression so far. Don't know if anyone asked or if you mentioned, what field of work are you in? Do you build composite aircraft or watercraft? Just wondering because of your methods and nomenclature. 

I cant remember, but does your head unit or signal processors have the ability to adjust early and late reflection? Reason why I ask is because some have the ability to compensate for the type of reflection your getting from beneath your dash.

I'm sure you have seen the other 5 series wagon (the one that had all the gear stolen then the dirt bags set off a fire extinguisher) I'm pretty sure its the install I'm thinking of. Anyway, he did some rather sweet dash pods for his mids and tweets. That member may be able to shed some helpful tips on any issues you may encounter.

Again, nice work
Scott


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Watching this build with interest as i also have an E34. Would love to build a custom dash one day with horns in.

Gav


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

So this project has taken a long time, and things have changed.

I managed to get the dash sub box completed. I spent a good week listening to the system. I really liked they way things sounded even without any tune, TA, EQ...ect. I was able to cross the sub over in the 150hz+ range without issue. Very nice mid-bass slap by running the sub higher . However, I was getting some resonances from the left upper section of the box that would need to be dealt with.

Here is a picture a few steps before I completed the box.










and










So, although the system sounded great, and things were progressing easily at this point in the build there was one big problem;

*I absolutely hated the way it looked.*

No really, I couldn't stand it. The one thing I dislike about a lot of the front mount subs I have seen is that it is often so obvious something has been done. In my case, I was so concerned about using a high sensitivity sub, making it ported for low end extension, and making sure I had enough volume, that the aesthetics got lost. I had absolutely no way to gauge the final volume, and so I made every effort to utilize every square inch of space. Plus, I was charting into the unknown a bit, and so I was using various different materials and techniques, often the less than ideal results. The end result was that the dash just looked like a big mammoth, bulky, squared off, hodge podge, amalgam pile of horse hockey. My roommate tried to convince me to go ahead and cover it, and maybe I would like it better. But I couldn't stand it. It just looked like it didn't belong. Hated it!

So what to do. Despite all the time, effort, materials, and money I put into the box, I decided to scrap it and start over. Remember, I was using epoxy here, because I needed the extra work time for the convoluted shape and also because I hate polyester fumes. Epoxy is not cheap, and neither was the glass fabric I was using. But, I suppose experience is priceless. So, its not a total loss .

So, in the next few days, I will update with the new box. Its supposed to rain like crazy for the next few days (hope it doesn't), so that should give me plenty of time to update.

I am going to go ahead and say that this box is unlike anything done before. I have looked around the web a lot, and there is not one example of a box done this way. I am sure there will be all sorts of opinions, and its not in any way the easiest construction, but I like what I have done so far. I hope every body else likes it to...stay tuned.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

shame plans had to change and it was certainly a cool result. In dash sub & 100% custom dash is still not an everyday thing in car audio.
Do you think some nice trim might have changed its fate??

Look forward to what you have coming next!


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## adamand (Apr 19, 2009)

All I can say is WOW!

You're dedication to DIY is beyond reproach... starting all over is crazy talk, but you gotta do what ya gotta do! 

Sub'd.


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## evangojason (Feb 12, 2010)

Great build! Can't wait to see how it turns out. I've been in the same boat before where you just don't like something you put a lot of time and money into. You try to alter and change it to fit your liking and end up doing twice as much work replacing 80%-90% of it and spending more time and money then if you would have started over.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

sydmonster said:


> Do you think some nice trim might have changed its fate??


No not really, but I did take a few weeks to decide the fate of the box. One of the other major issues was mounting depth. I simply had a very hard time getting the clearance between the top of the HVAC box and the sub magnet. It looked ok during mock up, but it resulted in a design with a very tall "face" There may have been some optical tricks with trim lines and materials that I suppose might have hidden the bulkiness, but I could convince myself that I could do it right. Not to mention once trim and padding was added, the box would be even larger!

Even though I matched the contour of the dash to the door trim, the dash still just didn't look right. It felt large and blocky, and ugly. 100% functional, and sounded great, but it looked all wrong to me.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

evangojason said:


> Great build! Can't wait to see how it turns out. I've been in the same boat before where you just don't like something you put a lot of time and money into. You try to alter and change it to fit your liking and end up doing twice as much work replacing 80%-90% of it and spending more time and money then if you would have started over.


^Pretty much nailed it. I realized this would be the case, and that a complete rebuild would be needed.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Ok, well it looks like its not going to stop raining any time soon, so I got some time.

Some of the problems with the first box had to do with the fact that I didn't have a clear design in mind. I had an idea of what I wanted to do, but realized that for the most part, the design would have to flesh itself out in the process of the build. I would also consider myself more an artist than an engineer, and so most things I do in life are organic, more kinda "in the flow". I used to spend hours with Legos as a kid. I loved starting from nothing, having no clear idea of what I was making, and ending up with something real cool. Just my nature I guess. But this led to issues with the box. Primarily, the long cure time of the epoxy required that I wait a day, or at least eight hours, before continuing to the next step. Also, modification was hell. My "in the flow" nature really bit hard when I need to make a change. Endless hours of sanding, and grinding, and making piles of itchy fiberglass dust just to make one change.

Another issue was the driver itself. I seemed to get hung up on sensitivity, for some reason. I wanted a relatively high sensitivity driver, which unfortunately often requires a larger box, >2.0 cu ft to be exact. I also wanted to go ported, which requires a bigger box. Pretty difficult specs to get around when space is limited.

I third major issue was that I used multiple materials; Some areas of the first box are strictly glass, some areas glass over MDF, some areas glass over cedar, some areas glass over PVC foam. In some areas the core material worked great, in others areas results were less than optimal.

So how do those issues factor in to the new box? Well, I switched drivers. The 12" ported sub has been replaced by two Alpine Type R 8" sealed. With the type Rs, I lose nearly two inches in mounting depth. If I go sealed, I also reduce box volume by 1.4 cu ft! In regards to construction, I have decided to go with one type of core material to glass over. The core material of choice is 1/2" MDF. What I found from the original box was that the stiffest and least resonant areas of the box all used 1/2" MDF as a core material. The great thing about the MDF is it is structurally stable and self supporting. So I can design the entire box, _before_ glassing. This avoids the issues I had when trying to make changes to the original box. This also lends greatly to my natural tendency (the Lego kid in me) to make things up as a go along. If I make a mistake, or want to change something, all I need is a saw, some glue , and some more MDF.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

So back to square one.










The top of the hvac box. Good place to start. I needed to make a template that will fit over all the flappers, wires, levers, ect. The top of the box is not flat and it angles up about 20 degrees or so around were the grated section is located. I also needed a way to get clearance around the flanges of the vents coming off the top of the box.










So I cut a piece of blue foam so that it was flush against firewall contour. Once in place, I pressed down very hard on the foam.










Blurry picture, but you can see the result. The flanges made indentations in the blue foam.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Then I cut out the indentations in the blue foam and used it as a template to transfer to a piece of 3/16" underlayment.










The template was not perfectly square, so after I transferred the outline from the template, I then used a t-square to redraw the transferred out line so that it was perfectly square. Then I cut out the holes for the vents










Jumping a few steps ahead here. I did a partial cut through of the underlayment so I could bend it to the angle on the top of the box. I also started to frame out the vents. The vaguely triangle shaped piece is the right side defrost vent. The piece under that is simply holding the defrost vent at the proper angle while the glue dries. The 1 x 4 at the front has a screw in it to support the front of the box to hold it at the correct angle. There is enough space underlayment that I can put foam gasket material and sound proofing between the HVAC box and the dash box.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

There are many contours that will need to be followed along the firewall. So, I tried my hand at kerfing. It took a bit of trial and error, but I finally got good technique down. I used a circular saw, which is not the easiest way to go about it.










This piece follows a section of the firewall crossmember. I used different spacing on the cuts dependent on the amount of curve needed. Some of the cuts are filled with MDF flour and wood glue. At the far right, you can see the end of a back piece which is glued to the kerfed part that holds the proper curve.










This is the start of the top of the box. I cut several gradually curved pieces of MDF, glued them together, and used them as a beam to bend the top piece over. The bend is gradual enough so that I did not need to kerf. I simply applied pressure to the 1/2" MDF and I was able to slowly bend it enough to match the beam. Glue and screw everything into place.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Back to the vent section.










More framing out of the vent section. The left side defrost vent is in place. I started to glue MDF pieces to the frame made from the underlayment ply. The underlayment ply is not stiff enough to support everything without bending.










Another pic of the vent area. I was checking height clearance with the Type R. Its also doing a good job of holding everything in place .










Start of the drop down area of the box. Notice more MDF has been glued to the underlayment ply.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Movin' along










Here you can see a made a larger kerfed piece. This piece is bent to follow the contour of the door trim, and follows a similar line as the stock dash. You can see the kerf was not perfect. There are some areas that have cracked instead of being bent. It is still solid though and those flaws won't matter much in the final box.










A look from the inside of the kerfed area. Notice the back piece, that follows the firewall crossmember, that I made earlier. That has just been set in there temporarily and is not glued in at this point. The curved rib with the red clamp on it is just to hold the kerf to its proper shape. That curved rib will be cut out of the box towards the final stages to make lay up of the fiberglass much easier.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Now things start to get a bit tricky. Because of the nature of this build, it is nearly impossible to get the cuts perfect. I can get close, but I am often not dead on. The only tools I have at my disposal are a circular saw and a jigsaw. No table saw or band saw. So, in some cases I have voids that need to be filled. I  have used MDF flour and wood glue to make a filler. After the box is assembled, however, the remaining voids will be filled with quality body filler. I found that the best technique with the MDF flour/wood glue filler was to first place fresh glue onto the areas to be joined. The glue will start to soak into the MDF a bit. Then quickly prepare the MDF flour/wood glue filler. The glue dries quickly, especially in warm weather under the sun, so you have to work fast!



















Laying the fresh glue in the areas to be joined.










Making the filler










Applying the MDF/glue filler.










Several tense minutes later I got the piece into the proper position.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Once the glue set up a bit I moved to another section.










A piece of MDF is glued and clamped to the top of the vent area.










This were things get a bit more complicated. The top section of the firewall crossmember is not a simple bend, it is a compound curve that needs to be followed. No amount of fancy kerfing would work here. I experimented with steam bending underlayment ply that I could then laminate together with glue. It worked somewhat, but I still could not get the compound curve I wanted. So, I decided to cut multiple hockey stick shaped pieces, stack them in a staggered, stair step type fashion to form the compound curve. This will then be sanded down to a uniform level.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Start of work on the drivers side.










Got the drivers side kerfed section positioned. Type Rs doing work as counter weights. 










After a very long time positioning, checking, measuring, repositioning I cut a piece of MDF to join the larger box section to the drivers side kerfed piece. This was actually a very long process of tweaking to get everything lined up properly.










Just a pic of the back side of the box.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Starting the cluster area.










Spent quite a long time positioning the cluster to the proper height and angle. Once positioned, I cut a piece of cardboard to use as a template for the MDF.










More aligning and position checking. I am not measuring here. I am using the shadow cast by the wood I am using as a brace to eyeball the alignment. Everything looks good!










Got the piece for under the cluster cut, positioned and glued. You can see another example of the stair step construction I used on the right side. At this point there was still some flex in that area of the box. So, I joined the stair step section to the defrost vent piece with body filler. You can see shavings where I started to trim the filler back down.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Now you can see where this is heading. Notice how much smaller the profile of this box is compared to the first box I built.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Moving along smoothly at this point.










Cut the final pieces to overlay onto the underlayment ply. Notice I have started the cut outs to recess the baskets of the type Rs.










Remember when I stated that it was very difficult to get exact cuts. This is a prime example. Actually this was the worst miss cut by far. I am not sure what happened, but the saw got wonky on me during the cut. What I did to fix this was I drilled through the side piece and into the stair step section. I filled the holes with glue then hammered wooden dowls into the holes. The gap was filled with body filler.










I didn't take pictures of this in the previous sections, but you can see in this pic multiple hockey stick shaped pieces of MDF. These are to make yet another stair step compound curve section. These pieces will be glued to the box at the curved section. You can see the curved section right above the drill bit case.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Yet more progress.










Couple of things going on in this pic. The blue clamp is holding the first hockey stick of the new stair step section in place (at the front of the box). You can see the ends of the dowls I used to reinforce the gap I showed in the previous post. I have also started to shave down the back of the very first stair step section.



















The completed stair step section at the front of the box.










Putting down some body filler.










Fitting another piece. Notice the saw tooth cut I made to fit snugly against the stair step section.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Back in the car










I started to do more work on the cluster area. Type Rs hanging out. Again the Type Rs will be mounted lower than what is seen in the picture.










Another shot in the car.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Back out of the car



















Started to shape everything a little more. More body filler, hours of sanding.



















In the above two pics, you can see how much sanding I have done to level out the stair step sections. I was originally using a palm sander, and was getting nowhere fast. After literally hours of sanding, my fingers were tingling from the constant vibration of the palm sander and I was getting tired. So in an attempt to speed things up, I pulled out the angle grinder. Very aggressive approach with the angle grinder, and I had to wield it with precision, but it made for quick work. What I achieved with the angle grinder in twenty minutes would have taken days with the palm sander.










Just another pic of what the angle grinder can do.


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

That's a crap-ton of work! Very creative thinking though, keep it up!!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Things are finally taking shape .










I started on the cut outs for the defrost vents. At this point the top of the box does not sit flat because the defrost vent are too long. This was intentional so that I can trim the vents back and assure proper alignment. I made the cuts in the top of the box by tracing a line around the defrost vents onto the top of the box from the underside.










Once I made the initial cuts in the top of the box for the defrost vents, I could then see how much tweaking I would need to do form there. In this pic you can see I made the cuts a bit larger. Notice that they are not exactly symmetrical cuts. This is fine at this point. I just need to make enough clearance with the cuts so that the top can lay in the correct position. Once in the correct position, I can then go back and adjust the symmetry.










The box as it is today. Hopefully it will stop raining, so I can get back to it. I will try to update every other day or so. The next big step will be the cluster. Then cut outs for the subs. After that I will start final fitment and the cosmetic work. Last steps will be glassing the inside, epoxy to join the top and bottom halves, and finally glassing the entire outside surface of the box.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

sinister-kustoms said:


> That's a crap-ton of work! Very creative thinking though, keep it up!!


Thank you! And a crap-ton might be a bit of an understatement .


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

WOW! you werent kiding! Tons of MDF being worked over here!! effort +++


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

sydmonster said:


> WOW! you werent kiding! Tons of MDF being worked over here!! effort +++


One sheet 4' x 8' of the 1/2" stuff. It should be enough to finish. I think 1/8th of the sheet has ended up as dust at this point from all the cuts. 

Wish it would stop raining. I really want to get on to the cluster surround.


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## internationlriders (Nov 7, 2009)

Wow! The first build did have a very simple design but I can appreciate the time and quality put into the build - I want to see a finished product and am looking forward to it.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

You are persistant. I'll give you that. That new dash looks really heavy. How much does that weigh so far?


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

bigbubba said:


> You are persistant. I'll give you that. That new dash looks really heavy. How much does that weigh so far?


Its actually not that heavy right now. Top piece is maybe a bit over 10lbs, bottom piece I am guessing 20-25lbs max. I am hoping that it doesn't get over 50-55lbs when finished, minus subs. It just might end up lighter than the first box due to the fact that vast sections of the first box were glass only, which needed to be thick in order to be stiff over such a large area. The MDF itself is less dense than the glass. So, using the MDF as core material, I will use far less glass for the same stiffness, and the box may end up lighter. Box with MDF only right now is virtually stiff enough by itself. Its only 1/2" stuff, but the very short, contoured sections glued together have made the box quite stiff.

I'll try to get it on a scale when I finish.

I didn't get much done today due to rain. I am getting real sick of this weather pattern right now. I got some of the cluster surround finished. For some reason, it always seems to be the most difficult part of the build. It was with the first box, and it is with this one too. There just isn't any good way to line things up or measure. There are a lot of curves and strange contours on the cluster that fool your eye if not careful. It has to be dead on, as its something you look a lot while driving. 

I tried to do some more work as it was getting dark, but even with lamps, I couldn't see well. Messed up a cut, then ran the jigsaw into the corner of the bench, snapping off the blade while the saw kick back and almost hit me in the chin. Decided that was enough for today. The blade needed to be replaced anyway .


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## chevbowtie22 (Nov 23, 2008)

Looking great so far. Your last dash was nothing short of amazing. I'm looking forward to see how this one turns out.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Cluster surround is a pain. Again, just too many strange contours on the cluster itself. I tried using small kerfed sections of MDF, but it failed miserably. I might try a similar hockey stick, stair step technique that I used with the other difficult contours, but I am not super keen on that either. Last resort will be rigid PVC foam. I did something similar with the first box, but there were some issues with it, mainly the stuff I have on hand is only 1/8" thick, so its flimsy stuff.

I was really hoping to have the cluster finished today, but it may not happen. I'll post more pics if I do.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I finally got the cluster surround mostly completed. The challenge with the cluster was that it has multiple angles, some flat areas, and some curved areas. It also tapers from front to back. In the end, used one flat piece of MDF in the middle, two kerfed sections on either side, and then I filled the gaps left with wedge shaped pieces. This still left some unevenness and gaps. I filled the gaps with body filler. Its going to take a lot of sanding to get the proper shape.










First I cut pieces to frame in the bottom of the cluster surround. These are the only squared piece in the cluster. You can see all the alignment marks I made with pencil. The left side looks similar










Then I glued in the pieces one by one. I clamped the triangle in place to keep things square. 










This one is difficult to explain clearly. You can see the bottom sections of the surround are now framed. The back piece has some crudely cut tabs to help hold the top piece in place. The ring piece is made from the same underlayment ply I used elsewhere. That ring is angled to the same angle as the face of the cluster. This was done so that I could have something with which to attach the top pieces, and also so I could eyeball the alignment of each added piece without having to keep placing the actual cluster back into to opening.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Top piece in place. This just a flat area, as was this same area on the OEM surround.



















Here you can see the two small kerfed sections to the left and right. The remaining spaces were filled with wedge shaped sections of MDF. At this point I have the overall shape and the surround is structurally stable. You can also get an idea of how much work will be needed to get the final shape.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

More work than I care to admit .










More body filler.










The cluster surround after lots of massaging. You can see that I have knocked down the ring piece that was used to align the individual sections. Still tons more work to do


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## nigeDLS (Nov 5, 2011)

Damn, that's a lot of work! 

Here is mine, far simpler (and quicker!) dash build:


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

MOTHER OF GAWD!!!!

very cool!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

NigeDLS, I've seen pics of your car before. Real nice build btw. Certainly, doing a monolithic dash is somewhat easier. If you look at the first box I did, it really did start out more monolithic. I too considered a center mounted cluster, but decided against it in the end. The really, really, challenging aspect of this build is the asymmetry of everything. The asymmetry makes it very difficult to line things up. There is not a common point to measure, and the multiple contours and lines can fool your eye if you are not careful. There is a whole bunch of time spent placing the box back in the car, dancing around from drivers side to passenger side, putting the steering wheel on, and then pulling off, sitting in the middle rear and looking straight down the center line, over, and over and over to make sure everything is lining up, and then pulling the box back out. So anything that would make the dash more symmetric, would make the build easier. On the other hand, the asymmetry can work for you a bit, if you do not get something exactly perfect, then you may not notice due to the lack of common reference point(s). With that said, I will for sure know where the imperfection lies, so its still very important to me.

The other challenging aspect is the fact that I wanted to retain the hvac and all functioning vents. In the first box, only the windshield defrost, center vents, and rear vents would function. In the new box, I will have the door vents, side defrost, and under dash vents in addition.

Finally, as a stated earlier, I didn't want a look of "ohh wow a custom dash". Not that someone wouldn't notice if they are at all familiar with E34s, but you get what I mean.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Not much worth showing right now. Did some more work on the defrost vent area and also smoothed out the edge of the top piece where it meets the window glass. I spent most of the day working on the recesses for the sub baskets; so much grinding and sanding. The idea is to get the subs as far forward as possible, unfortunately this required that I cut into the defrost vent area a bit more than I would have liked, so that area will need to be reworked. I also needed to contour the edges of the sub recesses so the glass will lay in easily. Hopefully I will get to glassing the inside of the box tomorrow. There is one section that will need to be glassed with the box standing on end, but once that cures to the point where it is stable, I should be able to do the rest of the inside area at one time.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Did a crap ton of sanding of the past two days. I literally have no finger prints left from gripping the sandpaper. Its somewhat difficult to appreciate the amount of work done in the next few pictures, but I'll post them anyways.



















The black sharpie line in the above two pics shows the area that will need to be recessed. You can also see where the sharpie line continues up to the defrost vent area. There isn't very much room at all between the cluster surround , the vent, and the area that will need to be recessed for the woofer basket. In fact, a section of the cluster surround will need to be cut back.










This pic may give a better idea of what needs to be done. The right side has already been recessed, but there is still loads of sanding needed to knock back the adjacent area for clearance of the sub basket.


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## evangojason (Feb 12, 2010)

Incredible dedication. You got me itching to try something like this!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

In these pics you can see that the recess has been made for the left sub. This was all done by sanding. There is no way to get the jig saw in that area. You can also see how far the corner of the cluster surround was knocked back. For aesthetic reasons Some of that area will have to be remade once the top has been placed on the box. 










Just a quick picture of work done to the lip of the top piece for the box. There will be tons more work to do once the top piece is attached.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Two pictures of the box in the car to check alignment again. In the first picture, the thin piece of ply stuffed between the top and bottom pieces is to maintain the gap that will be filled once the glass is wrapped around the top edge of the bottom section and the bottom edge of the top section. The sharpie lines are alignment marks.











Visually checking alignment again. If you look carefully, you can see a center line across the top piece of the box. That line should line up with the notch and the line on the very bottom. You can see here that it is actually off by about 1/8" or so. This is because the top piece of the box was getting hung up on the OEM dash mounting tabs, which are located at the very top of the firewall. I had to trim a bit of the box top piece to get it to slide into the proper position.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

evangojason said:


> Incredible dedication. You got me itching to try something like this!


Unless you are insane, don't .


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Orion525iT said:


> Did a crap ton of sanding of the past two days. I literally have no finger prints left from gripping the sandpaper.


For what it's worth (now that you've done most of the sanding  ), go a get yourself a box of rubber gloves. I like to use the heavy duty chemical-resistant type, but light-weight medical ones will work also. Your hands will sweat like a pig while wearing them, but they'll save your fingertips from getting chewed out by the sandpaper. Keep up the good work!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Well, I really wanted to get on to glassing today, but my hardener ratio pump has gummed up. I don't trust it, and there is no way I will take a chance with it. So it will be Monday before I can get a new pump. Its a real shame, as it would have been nice to glass the one inverted section that will need to set before I can do the rest of the bottom half. I guess there is more that I can do to prep the top. I needed the break anyway I suppose. I have been pushing pretty hard with this for a few weeks now, and I am pretty worn out.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Some pictures just before glassing. You can see that now the sub basket recesses have been smoothed and blended as have the defrost vent areas. All the blending and smoothing has nothing to due with cosmetics, it is done just to insure that the glass will lay flat. I don't want any voids. I am using 8HS fabric, so it will conform easily to tight areas and complex curves. But no glass, regardless of weave, likes to drape over sharp corners. All that work for something that will never be seen!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Finally got to glassing the inside of the bottom section .



















In the pictures above, you can see what a did to prep the sub basket recesses. The recesses will be glass only to try to make them as thin as possible. The reason I need to make them thin is so that the subs do not protrude too far off the top of the dash and also so that the vent flapper on top of the HVAC box has enough space to open fully. The 8" type Rs do not have a vent, so they can sit flush with the recesses. The recesses have pieces of plywood wrapped with release film. You can also see (pink things) plastic body filler spreaders doing a similar job where I had to cut back the defrost vents. These (the release film and plastic spreaders) are just there to support the glass as it cures. They will be removed after cure. I could not simply use wax, pva, pan spray, whatever as a release agent because I will need to glass the under side when doing the outside of the box. There would be no good way to remove the residue from those types of release agents, which is why the plastic spreaders and release film are used.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

For cutting the glass, I like to make cardboard templates first.










Then I can trace out the cuts onto the glass fabric. Notice that I change the orientation of the pieces. I do this so that I can make as few as cuts as possible, have as little scrap glass as possible left over, and also so that I can alternate the direction of the fiber to give maximum strength in all directions.










The pieces cut. It was a bit windy so I was using various objects to hold things down.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I like to wet out my glass separately, and then place the pieces into the box. I find that this speeds things up quite a bit. Also, due to the temperature in the mid 80's, the resin pot life is greatly reduced, so time is critical. I wet out the glass over release film. You can also see that I have place the templates under the release film. This is because the twill fabric I am using here, while being extremely drapable, it also deforms easily as a result. So, I want to try to maintain proper shape of the glass throughout the wet out process.










The first area I glassed was the trickiest by far. There is an underhung section, and the area is extremely tight. Luckily, I had some twill fabric left over from the previous build. The twill fabric is a bit yin and yang. It is extremely drapable, but also pulls apart easily and deforms greatly if it is not handled carefully. But the twill is needed for this tight area. You can see I have already glassed the underhung area. Once I wet out the glass, I use the remaining resin to coat the MDF. This coating is a very important step. If I had been able to wet out the glass on the box, instead of separately, I could skip the coating step. But when wetting out the glass separately, the glass simply will not stick well to the MDF.

No way in hell you could do this with catalyst activated polyesters. You simply would not have the work time needed. The good thing about epoxies is that even when you are past the pot life, the wet out fabric is still very workable. It will slowly get stiffer and less compliant, but the epoxy cures slow enough that you have plenty of time to position everything, work out the voids, air bubbles, and nonconforming areas.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I worked from left to right. You can see I have glassed as far as the right sub woofer recess. To the right, notice how wet the MDF looks. This is what it looks like after you brush on the resin. You can see a dry area, where no resin has been applied, to the far right. Type Rs just hanging out. They sit below the highest point of the defrost vent area, which is ideal. They may need to sit a bit higher. If the recessed areas do not end up as stiff as I want, I will have to go back and add more glass, which will raise the subs. I won't know for a few more days, as it takes 2-4 days for the resin to reach full cure.










Inside of bottom section done! It looks a bit gnarly in the pic, but looks good in person. I will have to trim back the glass around the lip, but I will not need to do too much post cure work. For the inside, I used 6 layers of 8.9 oz E glass. Maybe overkill, and I may use fewer layers on the exterior. Twill was used on the far left section and 8HS was used for the rest.

Now, on to the top section! Still tons more work.


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## dales (Dec 16, 2010)

wow. in for resullts


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Just a quick update.










This is how you make reusing your resin mixing cups easier. Just stick the brushes you used to stipple back into the resin cup. After the resin cures, you can just pull out the brush, and all the remaining resin comes with it.










I started to trim the excess glass from the bottom section. I have found that an old set of tin snips do any excellent job. After I trim with the tin snips I use a dremel or palm sander on the remaining excess glass.










All the excess has been cleaned up.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I snapped a quick picture of the old box next to the new box. Although the overall shape is very similar, you can see how much smaller the profile is on the new box. Looks much, much better too me.










I started to add blocks of MDF to the under side of the top section. This is so I can have plenty of material to shave back and contour on the top side of the top section once the box is fully assembled. I don't yet know exactly how the top will be blended to the door panels and other trim pieces, but I wanted to be sure I had enough thickness that I would not cut completely through when blending.


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## Nemesys66 (Apr 14, 2010)

Wow wow wow...
Honestly, this scary work. Can't believe you went this way!!!
Chapeau!!!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Nemesys66 said:


> Wow wow wow...
> Honestly, this scary work. Can't believe you went this way!!!
> Chapeau!!!


Thank you, and you have no idea...

Every time I think I am at a point where things will speed up a bit, they never do, lol. But, there is light at the end of the tunnel and I am not willing to rush things. I think that once I get the top in place, that the rest of the work will be a lot more rewarding. At that point I will truly begin to see things take shape.

On a side note, I tapped around the box to check for resonances. The box is as dead as concrete, but not nearly as heavy of course. I think I will back off a bit with the glass and use fewer layers on the outside. I had a feeling that the six layers I used on the interior of the box would be overkill, but I think its better to over engineer than under engineer.

Got most of the blocks I added to the top shaped and smoothed. Checked for clearances between the top of the box and the bottom. I made a few adjustments. I do think I will get to glass the inside of the top tomorrow. Maybe, just maybe I might get to epoxy the top down .


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I didn't get a whole bunch done today. I just didn't have time. But here's some pics of what I did.










This actually is a pretty exciting moment for me. I got one of the subs in place to check the fit. It looks like the subs will sit a bit higher than the top of the box. Its not much of an issue, but was hoping it would be flush.










This is the piece that will be glued to the top of the dash and serves as a surround for the subs. Why did I take a picture of it on the hood? (yes I know the hood is dirty, the car has been siting for awhile) If you will notice, the sub surround piece will follow the same lines as the hood accent.










The sub surround piece in place. I will admit, it looks pretty nasty right now, and will need a lot more work. I decided to glue the surround piece down before cutting the hole for the second sub. This is because if I cut the second hole, the combination of the hole and the cut out for the cluster would not leave very much MDF in that area. There would just be a thin strip at the top near the defrost vents and I was worried that it would not be very strong. At this point, I really wish I had a router, but its not in the budget, so I will have to do all the edges by hand.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Again, not much progress today. Started to do some work, but pop up t-showers have put a stop to that.



















I wanted to check the fitment and position again. Everything seems to be lining up fine. The lower section of the cluster surround is getting hung up on the steering column area. The cluster surround is going to be trimmed back and blended quite a bit, so the clearance issue will be resolved once that is done. 

You can see that the sub cut outs are not perfect. This is to be expected somewhat, as I needed to be sure there was proper clearances between the sub baskets and the areas on the inside of the box. I think the cut outs could have been better. But the difficult thing to deal with, beyond the multiple clearances, is that a considerable thickness of glass will be wrapped around the lip of the cut outs. Because of this, I needed to oversize the cuts for both the sub basket and for the surrounding trim piece. 

You can also get a good idea of how much work will be needed to knock down and blend the MDF. All those sharp angles will be sanded back, blended and contoured. Most of that work will not take place until after the inside of the the top piece has been glassed, positioned, and epoxied to the bottom.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

[email protected]!

well you know,... props, kudos, well done and all that.


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## JuhaP (Jun 17, 2012)

Awesome work!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

sydmonster said:


> [email protected]!
> 
> well you know,... props, kudos, well done and all that.





JuhaP said:


> Awesome work!


Thanks guys, I appreciate the positive comments.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I got some more work done on the recess and sub surround area. I definitely could have a done a much better job of cutting the surround piece. Although I was trying to be conservative with the cuts because I was not 100% sure there wouldn't be clearance issues, I really should have made the cuts larger.










The subs more or less in place. Notice, however, the clearance on the surround piece at the top as opposed to the bottom. There is almost no clearance at the bottom. This is where I wished I had made the cut larger. Sadly the piece is already glued down, so that only leaves a few options to fix the clearance issue.










I bought this reamer bit form Lowes because my Dremel was not charging properly. This bit actually does a very good job. Its a bit hard to control due to the weight of the drill, but it does fairly quick work. The round over on the end is nice because it makes a decent contoured edge, which is ideal for laying the glass over. It would be nice if I had some sort of depth control on the drill. That line in the picture is how much material will need to be removed. I wish I could have done a better initial cut, but things could be worse.










This picture is to show how much larger the cutout is in comparison to the mounting screws holes. You can see that screw holes are only half blocked by the cut, so the cut is obviously over sized. Again, this over sized cut is intentional as that area will be wrapped over with several layers of glass. Once wrapped with glass there will be plenty of area to bolt/screw down the sub securely.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Not too much to report over the last few days. I ran out of gas a bit on the project... lol. Actually, I needed to do some real work to the car itself. I wired in an electric fan and removed the stock clutch fan. I also finally determined that I was losing coolant through the drain valve on the radiator. I replaced the O-rings so all should be good. E34s are notorious for cooling issues, all of which are easy to resolve once you track down the cause.

I did manage to get the inside of the top piece worked over thoroughly in preparation for glassing.










Lots more work here than what it seems. Again, none of the blending and contouring are for aesthetics, it is done strictly to make sure the glass will lay flat and not void. For that reason, if you look closely, nothing is exactly symmetrical or perfect. This does not matter as it will never be seen again once the top and bottom are glassed together. 










Making cardboard templates again to cut the glass.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

After cutting the glass, I position the pieces on the part as I would once wet out. I do this to check for buckles and folds in the glass. I am pretty good at predicting where these will occur, but I always want to be sure. You can see in the above picture the areas that will not lay flat easily. I might be able to get these areas to conform better once the weight of the resin is applied to the fabric. But, experience tells me that these areas will still want to void as the resin cures. So the best thing to do is make relief cuts in the fabric.










Another area of the top piece. You can see where I have made relief cuts in the fabric. I usually try to make the relief cuts in slightly different locations for each piece of fabric. In this case, I am using four layers of fabric, so I try to make the relief cuts at four slightly different locations. This is so the break in the fabric, due to the cuts, does not overlay the break in the previous piece. In a sense, the relief cuts are lapped like shingles on a roof. I do this so that strength will not be compromised where the relief cuts are made.

The the sharpie lines, that look like a pie, are cuts for the sub holes. Those tabs will be pulled around to the top side and stapled down to hold them in place.










I shortened the tabs a bit by cutting the ends off. The tabs do not need to extend much beyond the rim of the sub cut out. I could pull those tabs all the way around to the top, but doing so will increase the amount of prep work needed on the top side of the box (they would need to be sanded and blended). The tips of those tabs (the little triangular bits) will not go to waste. They will be lapped over the relief cuts on the sub cut out to add strength and bulk to the rim. Remember, those cut outs are oversized and will be bulked up with glass and then sanded back to make symmetric rings for the cut outs.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Despite, or perhaps _in spite of_, the weather I managed to glass the inside of the top. It was in the upper 90's and it really adversely impacted the resin gel and cure rate.










I started with the left side, and tried to do from the center line to the left edge as single pieces. I was going after four layers of glass here. The outside temps were about 90 degrees. Last time I glassed it was in the mid 80's and I was already having some issues with pot life and work time. I should be able to get 20-25 minutes pot life and at least 90 minutes work time. At these temps I was getting about half of that. Its not just the work time that was impacted. The MDF soaked up far more resin at these temps, which required that I brush down the MDF multiple times with resin so that the glass would stick. I actually had to mix more resin just to recoat the the MDF. As I stated before, the glass does not like to stick to the dry MDF. As the resin cures it becomes much more difficult to work out the bubbles. It was very difficult to get that much area worked over in the time a had at these temperatures. I did finally get everything worked out properly, but I was seriously minutes away from having to pull up all the glass.

Due to the difficulties I encountered with the left side, I decided to do the right side with three different passes. I worked form the center to the right. Even with the three separate passes on the right side, I was still struggling with the elements. Temps were in the mid 90's at this point. 

In the end I started to use multiple small pieces of glass with multiple resin batches, much like using fiber glass mat and polyester resin. I did multiple small batches around the sub cut outs and along the openings for the defrost vents. 

I got it done, but it wasn't easy. I think I sweated out enough to fill the Dead Sea. I think that when I finally get to glassing the exterior, I will have to do one of two things. I will either need to move the glassing indoors, or switch to an extra slow hardener. I am already using the slow hardener, but it is not slow enough. A lot of the slower hardeners used for epoxy systems do not cure as stiff as the faster hardeners, so there is some drawback. The reduced stiffness of the slower hardeners may not be critical, but it is a consideration. I hate glassing indoors because I really don't have the right space to do it, but it may be the best option. 

The entire process of glassing the exterior will be much, much more critical than the processes for the interior. This is because there will be the added burden of cosmetics.

It is supposed to be over 100 degrees for the next few days. I doubt I will get anything more accomplished. The next step will be to place the box into the car, position everything, and then epoxy the top to the bottom. This will be the most critical step in the processes thus far. I can't afford to make a mistake here, so the next step is a big one.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

So I stepped out into the inferno to take a look at the work I finished yesterday.










There seems to be a bit of a problem. When the glass has made good adhesion to the underlying substrate, it should be translucent. If you notice, there are a few large areas that or more opaque. These opaque areas indicate that the glass has lifted. I have had some very small voids in a few places, and they are not a major concern. But I have never had this large of an area with this issue. It was bubble free when I went to diner last night. So what happened? Most likely it is an issue of outgassing which is something that boat builders and home built aircraft builders are familiar. It can occur with any porous substrate, cedar, spruce, end grain balsa, ect, even ridged foams. What happens is that when the core material heats up, the pores release trapped gasses. So although it was void free when I left for dinner, two things happened. 1) The sun had crept around the side of the house and was shining on the area I had just glassed. 2) Combine that with the exotherm of the curing resin and you get outgassing. 

There are ways to avoid this issue, such as heating the core material and then applying the fabric as the core material is cooling. Another would be to coat the area to be glassed with resin and then allow it to cure to a tack free state before glassing. Since it is so hot outside already, the second option may be better solution. By doing an initial coat of resin and allowing that to cure, I may also find that I am not having to brush on as much resin to get the glass to stick (which was a problem I was having earlier due to the outside temps in the 90's).

So how do I solve this issue? It seems that the bond to the surrounding area is strong, and the lifted sections do not deflect when I press on them. So, I may do nothing. But, even if it is ridged, it may introduce some resonances in that area of the box that would not be an issue if the glass had adhered properly. I may drill small holes and try do inject resin with colloidal silica into those areas. I could just lay down more glass and make the area extra stiff. Or I could place dampening material in that area. I think that just laying down more glass would be the easiest and best option.

The voids aren't disastrous, its just means more work .










Something else I wanted to point out. The very top edge of the box was not glassed. That is because that area will actually be on the outside of the box once the top is attached and the defrost vents are slipped into their cut outs. So those areas will be glassed when I get around to glassing the exterior.


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## SpecV (Mar 26, 2009)

subscribed for sure, I don't know how I missed this build until now....


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I got a bit more work done. I waited to about 6pm when the outside temps had dropped 105 to 103 :worried:. I wrapped myself up bedouin style and then hosed myself down with water. That kept me nice and cool for a few hours and also protected me from the glass fibers.



















Two pictures of the topside. All that ragged glass will need to be cleaned up by grinding and sanding. This is not fun work and the dust it makes is nasty stuff.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

This picture is about half way through the clean up process. All that white powder is cured resin and fiberglass dust.










I quick note on the tools I am using to clean up the glass. One tool is my crappy B&D mouse sander. Its not very good sanding the MDF, but it does a fairly good job with the glass. The other tool is a dremel with the bit pictured above. After going through countless sanding bands and burning through three different sanding drums, I decided to spend 14$ or so on this little gem pictured above. Here is a link 9933 Structured Tooth Tungsten Carbide Cutter (Cylinder) / Model: 9933. I can't recommend that bit enough. I have used it on the MDF and the glass, and it rips through both in no time. You have to be careful to control it and its not very good for final sanding, but I can't imagine not having it.



















These two pics show some of the areas after clean up. Notice there is still residual white dust everywhere. That residual dust does not like to be vacuumed or blow out. What I had to do was brush the surfaces with an old tooth brush and then vacuum at the same time. The dust simply would not come up any other way.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I am going to go back and do some selective reinforcement of some areas and then add bulk out the cut outs with more glass. I am also going to need to add more thickness to the basket recesses on the bottom section, as these did not turn out to be stiff enough. After that, final alignment and fitment of the top to the bottom.

After the top and bottom have been epoxied together, I can start to thoroughly work over the exterior of the box, work on the aesthetics, and blend the box to the door panels and pillar trim. I figure that nearly the same level of work that has gone into the box thus far will be required to finish and glass the exterior.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

KEEP IT UP!! (caps = internet shout??). Im far away, .


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Just a quick update. For about the billionth time I am checking fitment and alignment, but this is the first time post glassing the interior.










Around the cluster surround.



















The vent cut out areas.

In all three pictures above you can see that I still have good clearance around the cluster and vent areas. Perhaps too much clearance. I will need to either bulk up those areas with glass or use a structural filler (colloidal silica/resin, milled glass/resin). You can also see waviness of the glass in some areas. This is due to the fact that these areas were on the underside and therefor inaccessible during glassing. These are the areas that I needed to clean up as shown in previous posts. If I had been able to access those areas during glassing, I could have wrapped the glass around tighter and stapled the pieces in place before curing. This would have eliminated the waviness and allowed for a tighter bond. But the top piece by itself was too flexible and would have deformed if I had supported the it in a way that would have allowed access to the underside of the area being glassed. In any case, the vent cutouts will eventually be half the width seen in the pictures and filling those areas is necessary regardless of the waviness. So, there is not really anything lost in structure, time, or material due to the waviness.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Right and left side ends respectively. The right side has a small flaw that is not allowing the top to be positioned as far back as needed. The right side has a little too much bulk from the glass which is not allowing the top to sit down as far as it should. I little grinding will fix both issues.



















Just two quick shots of the dash box and the subs. Again, all those hard edges and angles will be thoroughly worked over, smoothed out and blended. The cluster surround will also receive the same level of attention. Still tons more work to do, but its slowly getting there!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh, I also decided that the area that I bulked up above the vent cut out will be hogged out and a trim ring attached so I can fit a 10.1" touch screen .


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm Loving this build. Hope to see and hear it when it is done.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

wdemetrius1 said:


> I'm Loving this build. Hope to see and hear it when it is done.


Thanks, and someday maybe I'll actually get to hear it!


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

I finally got around to doing a bit of work today. I started to work on the HVAC ducts inside the box. I decided to use schedule 40 pvc piping for the ducts with elbows where needed. The side defrost ducts are 3/4" I.D. and the door vent ducts are 1" I.D.










I took a quick pic of the hvac box to show how the openings and flappers are designed. The opening in the picture is for the right side defrost ducting, the left side defrost is identical. The main vent opening can be seen to the left. If you look closely there is a divider in the defrost vent opening. With the stock defrost vents, the larger opening was for the windshield defrost. In my design, the windshield vents actually pass under the firewall side of the box. So, the firewall side of the box actually serves as the defrost duct. The smaller opening routes to the side defrost vents which are aimed at the door windows. The ducting from the smaller opening to the side defrost vents are the ducts that I need to recreate from the 3/4" schedule 40 PVC.










This is the underside of the box that mates to the top the the stock HVAC box. The X marks are the areas that I want make a hole for the 3/4" PVC pipe.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Cutting the hole. The hole cutting bit I was using was completely destroyed by the time I got done with the holes (4 total hole on this drivers side alone). I guess six layers of glass and the MDF was too much for it .










Jumping ahead a few steps. You can see the side defrost pipe coming from the hole in the previous picture and running across the back of the cluster. It exits at the side of the box.

The other larger diameter section of PVC is for the door vents. That duct will actually exit the box to the right of the steering column. Then a small section of the flexible tubing will go underneath the column and attach to the section of PVC seen in the picture. So this run of ducting exits the box goes under the steering column and then reenters the box before it exits again into the door vent. I could have run this section completely inside the box, as I did with the side defrost duct, but there would not be very much space behind the cluster as a result. I was worried about creating a blockage that would choke off the air volume for the subs, so I decided to run part of the ducting on the outside. The passengers side does not have the same issue, so all of that ducting will be run inside the box.

That's it for now.


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

Orion525iT said:


> Thanks, and someday maybe I'll actually get to hear it!



Patience is a virtue my friend.


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## fj60landcruiser (Oct 10, 2011)

My E34 was one of my favorite cars to date. Looks like you're making great progress. Subscribed...


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Some more work on the ducting.





































The PVC ducting is less than elegant, but it is strong and will serve the purpose. The transition areas into the PVC pipe, as seen on the underside, will be much more gradual when finished. The stock ducting benefited from much larger and more gradual transitions. I don't have the luxury of large, gradual transitions due to space and design constraints. Therefor, I will be adding some vanes on the underside to help direct the airflow into the PVC pipe. I may not get the same amount of flow through the PVC as the stock ducts, but it will be nearly as much. In any case, its still an improvement over the original box I made which completely eliminated the door vents and side defrost.


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## ozone (Nov 27, 2011)

Awesome project. I love looking through these. I'm doing my own dashboard too, but a little less conventional and mostly metal.

I know you said you just don't have the room, but I think for Atlanta, you're not going to be happy with the size of the ducts. Hope I'm wrong.

Best of luck.


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## brandon. (Jul 11, 2012)

Wow. Great build so far. I'm stoked to see this dash come together. I wasn't quite sure what you were going for, but as I combed through the pages I definitely am getting a feel for it!

Keep em comin'. Definitely sub'd. Can't wait to see this finished.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

ozone said:


> I know you said you just don't have the room, but I think for Atlanta, you're not going to be happy with the size of the ducts. Hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Best of luck.


Naw, those ducts are just for the door vents. There is still the center vents and the rear vents that run through the center console. It will be fine.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

brandon. said:


> Wow. Great build so far. I'm stoked to see this dash come together. I wasn't quite sure what you were going for, but as I combed through the pages I definitely am getting a feel for it!
> 
> Keep em comin'. Definitely sub'd. Can't wait to see this finished.


Thanks!

I haven't had much time to work on it lately, and the outside temps were really causing some issues. I hope to get some work done this weekend.


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## WAR Machine (Jan 13, 2014)

What ever happened to this project?


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Lol, took a detour .



http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...e34-three-way-kicks-cement-board-baffles.html

There are even more detours within.


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## WAR Machine (Jan 13, 2014)

Orion525iT said:


> Lol, took a detour .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


O cool will check it out thanks...


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## Deathjunior (Aug 2, 2011)

Theres custom audio fabrication and then theres this, subscribed


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Orion525iT said:


> So this project has taken a long time, and things have changed.
> 
> I managed to get the dash sub box completed. I spent a good week listening to the system. I really liked they way things sounded even without any tune, TA, EQ...ect. I was able to cross the sub over in the 150hz+ range without issue. Very nice mid-bass slap by running the sub higher . However, I was getting some resonances from the left upper section of the box that would need to be dealt with.
> 
> ...


2012 thread but still neat!


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