# What’s everyone’s take on the new Focal Utopia M?



## Mashburn

I’ve attached a link to the Focal website. What is everyone’s opinion on these? I do not plan to run these as I already have my system picked out. But would be interested to see the opinions on this line. Pros, cons, performance etc.

https://www.focal.com/en/car-audio/car-audio-kits-solutions/elite/utopia-m


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## MrGreen83

https://youtu.be/cYdOarvniIw


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## SkizeR

seems like the new cone design does a really damn good job controling cone breakup. There are other drivers out there with this design and have the same characteristics. I wonder what the drawback is


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## metanium

Having not actually seen them in-person, they appear to be of extremely high build quality.


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## dobslob

I would bet that they are even better than the last set.


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## SkizeR

dobslob said:


> I would bet that they are even better than the last set.


i'd hope so.. unfortunately also probably more expensive


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## Mashburn

On paper the 6.5 seems pretty impressive. I’ve only ever heard These a couple years ago on a sound board at a local shop and wasn’t impressed at all (shocker). If I remember correctly someone said they were around 2300$. Don’t quote me on that though.
Couldn’t believe they had this high end of component set up as bad as they were when I heard them.


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## GEM592

Finally a neo 6.5. Better late than never.


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## Angrywhopper

Mashburn said:


> On paper the 6.5 seems pretty impressive. I’ve only ever heard These a couple years ago on a sound board at a local shop and wasn’t impressed at all (shocker). If I remember correctly someone said they were around 2300$. Don’t quote me on that though.
> Couldn’t believe they had this high end of component set up as bad as they were when I heard them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We have the 165RC up on our display board and while they sound good, they won't "blow you out of the water" when switching between "cheaper" component sets. That being said, when installed and tuned correctly, they sound fantastic.


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## NA$TY-TA

Looks like retail pricing is out for the M. 
8WM $999 each
6WM $1499 a pair
3.5WM $499 each
TBM $1499 a pair

When looking at the specs of the 8 it’s got me wondering how the 8’s paired with the tweeters would do. I’d be replacing an almost 13 yr old set of 165W’s.


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## Vividi

So, the price is a squeeze between warlord and druglord money.


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## tonynca

My wallet doesn't like em


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## MrGreen83

NA$TY-TA said:


> Looks like retail pricing is out for the M.
> 8WM $999 each
> 6WM $1499 a pair
> 3.5WM $499 each
> TBM $1499 a pair
> 
> When looking at the specs of the 8 it’s got me wondering how the 8’s paired with the tweeters would do. I’d be replacing an almost 13 yr old set of 165W’s.




Why would the 6” be more expensive than the 8” 


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## Onyx1136

MrGreen83 said:


> Why would the 6” be more expensive than the 8”


Read the small words that directly follow the numbers and I’m sure you’ll figure it out.


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## MrGreen83

Onyx1136 said:


> Read the small words that directly follow the numbers and I’m sure you’ll figure it out.




Ahh lmao 


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## ckirocz28

Angrywhopper said:


> That being said, when installed and tuned correctly, they sound fantastic.


Doesn't that apply to ANY decent speaker? My JL components sound fantastic when tuned correctly, and they're way less expensive, but not cheap.


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## haakono

Well yeah... but "fantastic" is a very vague reference for performance/quality. 

I think the point was that they needed to be installed and set up/tuned properly to perform like intended, something that didn't shine through when hearing them on a wall display in the shop. 

I did talk to our local distributor up here in Norway, just after he came back from the Focal factory having listened to these at their launch. And the one thing that really stood out from before was that they had all the refinement from the old series (not surprising), but also a loudness factor that went beyond even the K2 power series. 

So much more headroom than before, also the drivers had a very broad usable frequency range, so you could really mix and match drivers to suit your setup. Like the 8" was suited to use with just the tweeter for a 2-way setup. But also usable as a subwoofer. 

Sadly they're out of my price range, as I would have very much liked to upgrade from my 3-way Focal Flax setup (PS165F3) to some configuration of Utopia M. Selling my 1st gen Utopia 3-way setup (audiom tlr, audiom 6w and utopia 7w2) wouldn't even cash in a single TBM tweeter I'm afraid!


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## JimmyDee

Might be my next set of speakers...

I like that Focal has finally decided to use neo magnets.
This allows them to be super shallow, and I bet I can get those 8's under my seats.


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## kumizi

Ordered a set of the 6.5/3.5/tweeter combo to be run active. 

First post here but I've been researching non stop for the past three months about which direction to go. I've heard all sorts of setups the last three months and in person, I've had a slight preference for the "brightness" or "harshness" of the ES165KX3 Focals over more audiophile/laid back speakers like Hybrid Audio Legatia series, Audiofrog GB series, JL Audio C7s, Morel Supremos, etc that I've heard. My dealer has the Focal 165wrc+ in his truck and I thought those were a good in between for me, but he encouraged me to go 3 way if possible. I was thinking BE 7 until I saw this thread and inquired about the Utopia M.

I was told that Focal was only selling these to "elite dealers" and my guy had to sign up as one of those elite dealers to get a set ordered. Not sure what that entails. They are supposed to be shipping from Italy to the US mid December. So I'm hoping to get them by Christmas if there aren't any holdups.


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## tonynca

kumizi said:


> Ordered a set of the 6.5/3.5/tweeter combo to be run active.
> 
> 
> 
> First post here but I've been researching non stop for the past three months about which direction to go. I've heard all sorts of setups the last three months and in person, I've had a slight preference for the "brightness" or "harshness" of the ES165KX3 Focals over more audiophile/laid back speakers like Hybrid Audio Legatia series, Audiofrog GB series, JL Audio C7s, Morel Supremos, etc that I've heard. My dealer has the Focal 165wrc+ in his truck and I thought those were a good in between for me, but he encouraged me to go 3 way if possible. I was thinking BE 7 until I saw this thread and inquired about the Utopia M.
> 
> 
> 
> I was told that Focal was only selling these to "elite dealers" and my guy had to sign up as one of those elite dealers to get a set ordered. Not sure what that entails. They are supposed to be shipping from Italy to the US mid December. So I'm hoping to get them by Christmas if there aren't any holdups.




How much did the set cost ya 


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## kumizi

Retail is $4000. You can guess if the dealer sold at retail or a slight discount.

They are definitely super expensive for speakers but in the grand scheme of things, they're about $1500 more than KRX3 I was looking at. It's not a huge difference when you're looking at a $15000 system.

The two other local shops I spent time with advised Sinfoni Tempo and Hybrid Legatia SE/Pro.

I wanted to try the Audiofrog GB series but as someone that is not a DIYer, the dealer for Audiofrog in the DFW area did not seem up to par with the other more highly regarded shops locally. I tried reaching out to the dealer in Round Rock and didn't get a response.


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## haakono

kumizi said:


> I was told that Focal was only selling these to "elite dealers" and my guy had to sign up as one of those elite dealers to get a set ordered. Not sure what that entails.


If I remember correctly (generally speaking, don't quote me on the spesifics), to be able to sell anything from the elite series (meaning everything above the flax/performance line) they will demand that you have 1 of every set of speakers in both the K2 power and Utopia lineup in stock, and a demo vehicle with at least the new Utopia tweeter and 6,5" installed. 

Pretty huge commitment demanded, at least for the smaller specialist shops...


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## GMCtrk

kumizi said:


> Retail is $4000. You can guess if the dealer sold at retail or a slight discount.
> 
> They are definitely super expensive for speakers but in the grand scheme of things, they're about $1500 more than KRX3 I was looking at. It's not a huge difference when you're looking at a $15000 system.
> 
> The two other local shops I spent time with advised Sinfoni Tempo and Hybrid Legatia SE/Pro.
> 
> I wanted to try the Audiofrog GB series but as someone that is not a DIYer, the dealer for Audiofrog in the DFW area did not seem up to par with the other more highly regarded shops locally. I tried reaching out to the dealer in Round Rock and didn't get a response.


Care to share what dealer in dfw?


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## GreatLaBroski

I’ve admired the QA on some of the Focal gear I’ve owned and tested. I also appreciate the R&D Focal puts into their drivers. They (weren’t) on top of the beryllium tweeter game due to poorer motor design versus Scanspeak’s SD2 design and others used in Satori and Bliesma drivers. However their cone technology has been great. These new neo motors might make this series into contenders, especially for those who like hyper-detailed sound. 

I wonder if they have a paper on the motor design, like they did with the original utopia sandwich cone tech for the utopia line.


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## haakono

To be fair, all Utopia drivers (apart from the multimagnet subwoofers) have had neodymium magnets/motors since about 2004. Even the small 5,25" subwoofer (13ws).


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## kumizi

GMCtrk said:


> Care to share what dealer in dfw?


the Focal dealer is Earmark Plano


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## audiocholic

haakono said:


> Well yeah... but "fantastic" is a very vague reference for performance/quality.
> 
> I think the point was that they needed to be installed and set up/tuned properly to perform like intended, something that didn't shine through when hearing them on a wall display in the shop.
> 
> I did talk to our local distributor up here in Norway, just after he came back from the Focal factory having listened to these at their launch. And the one thing that really stood out from before was that they had all the refinement from the old series (not surprising), but also a loudness factor that went beyond even the K2 power series.
> 
> So much more headroom than before, also the drivers had a very broad usable frequency range, so you could really mix and match drivers to suit your setup. Like the 8" was suited to use with just the tweeter for a 2-way setup. But also usable as a subwoofer.
> 
> Sadly they're out of my price range, as I would have very much liked to upgrade from my 3-way Focal Flax setup (PS165F3) to some configuration of Utopia M. Selling my 1st gen Utopia 3-way setup (audiom tlr, audiom 6w and utopia 7w2) wouldn't even cash in a single TBM tweeter I'm afraid!



Hey mate,


how does the old Audiom tlr,6w,utopia 7w2 set up you had compare to the Flax 3 ways?


dont see much of these Flax's and was wondering your input on them for someone in for pure SQ


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## NA$TY-TA

haakono said:


> So much more headroom than before, also the drivers had a very broad usable frequency range, so you could really mix and match drivers to suit your setup. Like the 8" was suited to use with just the tweeter for a 2-way setup. But also usable as a subwoofer.



I was told by the South Texas Rep hearing them side by side with the current Utopias was amazing. I’m thinking about starting off with the 8’s in the doors and tweeters. If I’m not completely happy with that I can add the mids down the road. 



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## carlosg_313

I just installed the flax 3 way, knowing that the M would soon be released. My question, would my Mosconi AS series amps would enough to power those 3 ways.


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## kumizi

carlosg_313 said:


> I just installed the flax 3 way, knowing that the M would soon be released. My question, would my Mosconi AS series amps would enough to power those 3 ways.


Which ones do you have?

The speakers are rated for 20/50/100 nominal power and ~double that max power IIRC. so 100/100/200 should be plenty.

I am trying to decide between the Mosconi AS class AB vs the JL VXI class D amps myself.


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## carlosg_313

kumizi said:


> Which ones do you have?
> 
> The speakers are rated for 20/50/100 nominal power and ~double that max power IIRC. so 100/100/200 should be plenty.
> 
> I am trying to decide between the Mosconi AS class AB vs the JL VXI class D amps myself.


I have the as 100.2 and 100.4, even a 300.2 for the subs. When I do upgrade to the new M, I’ll probably Be running Zero series at that point. Possibly the zero4 and a class, or just 2 zero 4 for the 8in. I’m very indecisive right now. LOL


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## Asdcreation

My sound system 
Jl vxi 800/8
Focal es 165k2 front
Focal ec 165k rear
Jl C2 350x dashboard & rear roof
Jl audio CP108LG 500 watt sub
Jl vxi 600/1

Thinking of changing the c2 350x with the new 3.5wm uthopia to see how much Improvement in quality I get ,might change front k2 with old 165wrc or new m later on,checking with my guy if they can get new m in demo so that way it's easier to find out but yeah vxi are really good amps+ processor, expensive but reduces the need of extra amp & sound processors


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## rob3980

carlosg_313 said:


> kumizi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which ones do you have?
> 
> The speakers are rated for 20/50/100 nominal power and ~double that max power IIRC. so 100/100/200 should be plenty.
> 
> I am trying to decide between the Mosconi AS class AB vs the JL VXI class D amps myself.
> 
> 
> 
> I have the as 100.2 and 100.4, even a 300.2 for the subs. When I do upgrade to the new M, I’ll probably Be running Zero series at that point. Possibly the zero4 and a class, or just 2 zero 4 for the 8in. I’m very indecisive right now. LOL
Click to expand...

I’ve ran As amps and now have Zeros. You can’t go wrong with either.


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## NA$TY-TA

haakono said:


> I did talk to our local distributor up here in Norway, just after he came back from the Focal factory having listened to these at their launch. And the one thing that really stood out from before was that they had all the refinement from the old series (not surprising), but also a loudness factor that went beyond even the K2 power series.


That’s pretty much what my rep said also. He also said they had the old and new side by side and switched back and forth and these blew them away. 







haakono said:


> So much more headroom than before, also the drivers had a very broad usable frequency range, so you could really mix and match drivers to suit your setup. Like the 8" was suited to use with just the tweeter for a 2-way setup. But also usable as a subwoofer.



Now seeing as they say you can do that 2 way setup (8” & tweeter) I wonder how it would sound with 8” in the doors. I’m contimplating going this route right now and retiring my 165W’s and if I’m not totally satisfied and can always add the 3.5’s in the a-pillars at a later date


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## kumizi

The speakers came in about 10 days ago. But someone sideswiped the car they were going in so it might be 4-6 weeks before I get them installed.


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## tonynca

In a two way especially for woofers at the bottom door panels the 1khz+ don't sound as clear as a 3 way 3" mounted at the a-pillar. I tried my best getting the mid-range to sound right but it was always so hallow due to the 500hz and 1.25khz null spot.

If you're spending this type of money might as well make the most of it and do 3 way. 


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## Pb82 Ronin

Personally, I would love to audition a set. I've run K2Ps for over 10 years and they have been the best speakers I'VE EVER HEARD in any combo...ever. I can only imagine how truly incredible a Utopia line sounds.


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## Asdcreation

Right now undecided about going utopia 165 xp kit with passive crossovers vs 6wm + tbm tweeters combo active ,I am going with 3 way with 3wm already ordered but difference between 165 xp vs 6wm combo is 1500 not sure if it's worth it


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## Pb82 Ronin

Personally (and I have ZERO experience with this) but going "passive" with Utopias is a complete waste. Active or ban. LOL. Don't mind me...it's late and I've been drinkin'


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## Asdcreation

Yeah going active with jl vxi amps is no problem only problem gonna be to upgrade my VX600/1i to 5 channel vx1000/5i later on for my rear pillar speakers as I will need 2 extra channels ,but that's not big of a deal as to how much better than k2 they are,without any kind of demo hearing its hard to find out,it would be great had they given one demo utopia m to each signature dealer so you can hear them with your songs before buying them in


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## haakono

NA$TY-TA said:


> Looks like retail pricing is out for the M.
> 8WM $999 each
> 6WM $1499 a pair
> 3.5WM $499 each
> TBM $1499 a pair
> 
> When looking at the specs of the 8 it’s got me wondering how the 8’s paired with the tweeters would do. I’d be replacing an almost 13 yr old set of 165W’s.


From the official website it seems they have priced them othervise now:

TBM: $2190 a pair
3.5WM: $690 each
6WM: $2000 a pair
8WM: $1250 each
10WM: $1570 each

https://www.focal-america.com/lines/utopia-m/

Would love to hear them sometime, but probably no rush since I've yet not come around to installing my audiom TLR/audiom 6W/Utopia 7w2 setup together in 15+ years


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## JCsAudio

You know i’m definitely not qualified to say this given my experience with extravagant or ostentatious systems but $4000 for speakers is nuts. Home audio, yes, but the noisy environment of the automobile, IDK. 

Now this isnt to say I wouldnt do it myself if spending $4k felt like it does when I spend $10 now, lol.


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## tonynca

V8toilet said:


> You know i’m definitely not qualified to say this given my experience with extravagant or ostentatious systems but $4000 for speakers is nuts. Home audio, yes, but the noisy environment of the automobile, IDK.
> 
> 
> 
> Now this isnt to say I wouldnt do it myself if spending $4k felt like it does when I spend $10 now, lol.




There are luxury cars that have really sealed interiors. You won't be able to hear much outside. These are probably best installed on those vehicles. Get a test drive in an S Class, BMW 7 series or Lexus LS. The noise is pretty low.

If you had a Bentley or Rolls Royce you wouldn't even care about $4k and the interior is so quiet on those cars that you barely hear the noise.


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## JCsAudio

tonynca said:


> There are luxury cars that have really sealed interiors. You won't be able to hear much outside. These are probably best installed on those vehicles. Get a test drive in an S Class, BMW 7 series or Lexus LS. The noise is pretty low.
> 
> If you had a Bentley or Rolls Royce you wouldn't even care about $4k and the interior is so quiet on those cars that you barely hear the noise.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cant Argue with that, so true. I've been in a few of those cars and know they are vaults to noise. Full size pickup trucks are wisper quiet too.


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## Stycker

The newer trucks are very quite. My truck is less noisy than both of my cars. My former truck was from 2005 and it was extremely loud inside. I don't think truck could have been soundproof . From door creaking to wind blowing through the window seals, engine noise. The new trucks have really come a long way. They even drive smooth like a car. My old truck bounced all over the place.


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## cht08

I recently had a 3 way set of the new Utopia -M drivers installed in my Ford F150 pickup, 8/3.5/tweet. They are absolutely better than the Expert Kevlar drivers and twice as good as the previous Utopia line. You must demo a set to really understand how good they are. Really I have had high end car audio systems for decades and couldn't have ever imagined a car speaker could be as detailed and articulate as the Utopia-M drivers are. The experience is very close to my 2 channel system in my home and on some songs more revealing.


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## cht08

I'd gladly demo them for anyone in the metro Atlanta GA area...


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## K-pop sucks

I wonder if today's luxury trucks like the GMC Denali are quieter than luxury land barges like the LS, S class or Genesis/ k900.


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## Asdcreation

Ordered 3 way system with 6.5/3.5/tweeters with 10wm sub will be powered by jl vxi amps ,might will keep the other jl sub for extra boom ;with vxi drc controls pretty easy to disable/ enable jl sub whenever needed


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## Asdcreation

cht08 said:


> I recently had a 3 way set of the new Utopia -M drivers installed in my Ford F150 pickup, 8/3.5/tweet. They are absolutely better than the Expert Kevlar drivers and twice as good as the previous Utopia line. You must demo a set to really understand how good they are. Really I have had high end car audio systems for decades and couldn't have ever imagined a car speaker could be as detailed and articulate as the Utopia-M drivers
> are. The experience is very close to my 2 channel system in my home and on some songs more revealing.


 are u using stock head unit or different one?


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## cht08

Yes the stock head unit is being used. My 2018 F150 Raptor has the premium B&O audio system. I'm using a ZEN audio interface to extract toslink digital from the stock head unit and a JL audio Twik 88 for processing. Jl Audio amps power the system. The Utopia-m drivers really deserve higher end amplification but they perform quite well with amps I have.


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## tonynca

cht08 said:


> Yes the stock head unit is being used. My 2018 F150 Raptor has the premium B&O audio system. I'm using a ZEN audio interface to extract toslink digital from the stock head unit and a JL audio Twik 88 for processing. Jl Audio amps power the system. The Utopia-m drivers really deserve higher end amplification but they perform quite well with amps I have.




You're heavily invested in those speakers. Please do them some justice one day if you could install a high quality amp such as Brax, Audison Thesis, etc. I guarantee you will hear better separation and detail in a blind test. The JL are good but they're really meant for mid-high speakers. 

Do you have pics of your focal m installed?


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## JCsAudio

There are differences in amplifiers as I have bench tested a bunch in my own amp shootout but they are so small that you wouldn't notice them unless I switched them near instantly and it was in a very quiet space. I say put the money into tuning and treating the environment of the vehicle where there are real gains in SQ to be made.


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## cht08

Tonynca...I wish you could hear the Utopia-m drivers in my truck. They are amazing. Man these things would sound good driven by a jensen or sparkomatic eq/booster:laugh: Seriously I will get some pics of my install posted later today, but if you look at the Mobile Toys Inc instagram page my truck is the red Raptor posted on Jan 25th. I already owned Focal kevlar components and hadn't really planned on buying the Utopias. Adam at Mobile toys made a bold challenge and guaranteed me that the Utopia-Ms were twice as good as the kevlars so I trusted him... Factually they are 3 times better. The JL amps were already in the truck so we kept them. When time and budget permits I will get new amps.


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## NA$TY-TA

Be sure to post up some pics. I’m still deciding since my Raptor won’t be showing up till late March. Ford says 3/30 as of now. 


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## MrGreen83

cht08 said:


> Tonynca...I wish you could hear the Utopia-m drivers in my truck. They are amazing. Man these things would sound good driven by a jensen or sparkomatic eq/booster:laugh: Seriously I will get some pics of my install posted later today, but if you look at the Mobile Toys Inc instagram page my truck is the red Raptor posted on Jan 25th. I already owned Focal kevlar components and hadn't really planned on buying the Utopias. Adam at Mobile toys made a bold challenge and guaranteed me that the Utopia-Ms were twice as good as the kevlars so I trusted him... Factually they are 3 times better. The JL amps were already in the truck so we kept them. When time and budget permits I will get new amps.




Those XD amps are some of the most slept on amps ever. Amazing SQ, small footprint. I bet ur truck sounds amazing with that Speaker/Amp combo


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## cht08

> NA$TY-TA
> Be sure to post up some pics. I’m still deciding since my Raptor won’t be showing up till late March. Ford says 3/30 as of now.


I promise you will LOVE your Raptor. I previously had a 2017 F350 Platinum with a full size 8 foot bed. I traded it on my Raptor and it's been a super upgrade. There are some simple bolt on mods that you can do to the Raptor that really wake it up! Plus the a-pillars really work out well for small midrange drivers.

Raptor Install by CHT2008 | Photobucket


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## cht08

Sorry but I don't know how to post up individual pics but hopefully this link to my photbucket works. I don't have really detailed pics of my install. The utopia-m 8 inch drivers are behind the stock door panels. The A-pillars, Sail panels, and Subwoofer box are standard MTI offerings. I am using 2- JL13TW5 subs. By far the Utopia-M drivers make detailed SQ easy! Hope this helps

Raptor Install by CHT2008 | Photobucket


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## haakono

Looking good!

I placed an order for a TBM, 3.5WM and 6WM setup the other day. Actually it's basically a pre-order since little old Norway is far back on the pecking order when it comes to delivery. Tweeters were on back-order until May.. Will be powering them with my Helix P Six DSP amp, which I'm using now to power my PS165F3 components.


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## Paclypse71

cht08 said:


> Sorry but I don't know how to post up individual pics but hopefully this link to my photbucket works. I don't have really detailed pics of my install. The utopia-m 8 inch drivers are behind the stock door panels. The A-pillars, Sail panels, and Subwoofer box are standard MTI offerings. I am using 2- JL13TW5 subs. By far the Utopia-M drivers make detailed SQ easy! Hope this helps
> 
> Raptor Install by CHT2008 | Photobucket


Love the setup! I’m planning on doing the 8WM/3.5WM/TBM in my 2014 Infiniti Q60 but haven’t found anyone making custom panels for it. I’d probably be mounting the 8’s and 3.5’s in the factory door locations with the tweeters pod mounted low on the A-Pillars. Could you tell/show me what mounting hardware comes with the TBM’s? Thanks.


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## Pb82 Ronin

MrGreen83 said:


> Those XD amps are some of the most slept on amps ever. Amazing SQ, small footprint. I bet ur truck sounds amazing with that Speaker/Amp combo


+1. I don't know why JL isn't considered high end around these parts...

I have an XD driving Focals in my F150 and it's the best sounding system I've ever owned. I haven't got a chance to play with the VXi yet (installing it into my vette this weekend) but I can imagine that it will sound as good as I want it to. I could only imagine driving Utopias with it. I make good money, and i still can't afford Utopias, LOL!


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## JCsAudio

I've posted this before but from my own amp shootout I discovered that there really isnt much of a difference in sound between amplifiers of varying class or quality provided its not really low end like some of those off Chinese brands that claim 100 wpc for $45 and display max power as 2000 watts.


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## sazabi2001

New to this car-audio thing, I've just curious what's the difference between utopia BE and M series?
I think I'm planning to install the utopia BE series (TBE/3W2/13WS) since they got the smallest subwoofer (5"). Meanwhile, the M series seems at least double the price and bigger SW too.


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## bertholomey

cht08 said:


> Sorry but I don't know how to post up individual pics but hopefully this link to my photbucket works. I don't have really detailed pics of my install. The utopia-m 8 inch drivers are behind the stock door panels. The A-pillars, Sail panels, and Subwoofer box are standard MTI offerings. I am using 2- JL13TW5 subs. By far the Utopia-M drivers make detailed SQ easy! Hope this helps
> 
> Raptor Install by CHT2008 | Photobucket


Yep......I'm hoping to hear this truck sometime soon - I'll let you know the next time in Hotlanta


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## haakono

sazabi2001 said:


> New to this car-audio thing, I've just curious what's the difference between utopia BE and M series?
> I think I'm planning to install the utopia BE series (TBE/3W2/13WS) since they got the smallest subwoofer (5"). Meanwhile, the M series seems at least double the price and bigger SW too.


The Be is the previous/recently discontinued series that's been around for the last 15 or so years. The M is the newest generation. 

I would not recommend your planned setup as the 13WS is a pure subwoofer and the 3w2 is a midrange driver that doesn't reach down as far as the 13WS usable frequency range. Meaning that the importand midbass range would be missing completely from this setup. 

I used to run 4x 13WS as a sub stage, and 6w3be 6,5" midbass drivers (with a fullrange driver for the rest of the audio range). Meaning that the midbass drivers were in fact the largest diameter drivers in the whole setup.


----------



## SPAZ

Looks like one of my existing Dynaudio mids just went out on me. If someone is selling the Focal M 6.5's please send me a PM. I haven't done Focal in the car since the very first utopia days, loved the mids back then but not the tweeter.


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## sazabi2001

haakono said:


> The Be is the previous/recently discontinued series that's been around for the last 15 or so years. The M is the newest generation.
> 
> I would not recommend your planned setup as the 13WS is a pure subwoofer and the 3w2 is a midrange driver that doesn't reach down as far as the 13WS usable frequency range. Meaning that the importand midbass range would be missing completely from this setup.
> 
> I used to run 4x 13WS as a sub stage, and 6w3be 6,5" midbass drivers (with a fullrange driver for the rest of the audio range). Meaning that the midbass drivers were in fact the largest diameter drivers in the whole setup.


Thanks, it does seem like the 13WS has a very narrow low-fq band.
So what about the 5W2? (+3W2+TBE?)

My car is a small 2 +2 and doesn't have a lot of space for speaker and I guess it doesn't need a lot as well. there're pair of 5.25" holes on the doors, and a pair of 6X4" slots on the rear, that's about it. Since I don't want to cut the metal of the car, and it has no boots in the back, meaning that I'd better use whatever space I have.

The last chance would be the holes on the door, if I placed the speaker on top of an adaptor I may be able to fit a 6" thing.


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## kumizi

tonynca said:


> You're heavily invested in those speakers. Please do them some justice one day if you could install a high quality amp such as Brax, Audison Thesis, etc. I guarantee you will hear better separation and detail in a blind test. The JL are good but they're really meant for mid-high speakers.


I gave my installer free reign and $$$ to do whatever he wanted and he bet me I couldn't tell the difference between a VXi amp and $3000+ amps. I am a complete amateur but he's been doing this for 30 years. 

"I seriously doubt anyone that's been doing this for decades could tell the difference between modern AB vs D amps inside a car environment. I will bet you any amount of money you won't be able to tell the difference."

I also spoke to a second installer that is always top 1-2 in SQ competitions down here. His opinion was that if I wanted to compete, he would probably recommend AB amps. If I wanted to listen to music driving down the road with all the surrounding noises, there's no way in hell I'd notice a difference. 

Although I swear I can tell a difference between Spotify quality and Tidal HiFi quality and I've only gotten 2/3rd of people that agree with me.


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## JCsAudio

I have two identical songs on my iPod player except one is ripped lossless and the other is MP3 and I can pick the lossless out of the two every time. I mostly hear a difference in richer bass response.


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## bbfoto

V8toilet said:


> I have two identical songs on my iPod player except one is ripped lossless and the other is MP3 and I can pick the lossless out of the two every time. I mostly hear a difference in richer bass response.


You need to qualify which Bitrate you're using to rip the MP3, and if it's CBR or VBR, and what encoder within the software you are using (LAME, etc.)?

You also need to make sure that your MP3 ripping software/encoder doesn't have the high-pass and low-pass filters engaged. In some software there is no option to change this, but in others it is buried in an "advanced" menu. In some software this function is labeled as the "Size/Quality" adjustment or slider. This would obviously affect either or both the high-end and low-end response of the MP3 versus the Lossless file.


----------



## K-pop sucks

Anyone have these in the Bay area California? PM me if you would like to meet up. I'd like to hear them.


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## tonynca

bbfoto said:


> You need to qualify which Bitrate you're using to rip the MP3, and if it's CBR or VBR, and what encoder within the software you are using (LAME, etc.)?
> 
> 
> 
> You also need to make sure that your MP3 ripping software/encoder doesn't have the high-pass and low-pass filters engaged. In some software there is no option to change this, but in others it is buried in an "advanced" menu. In some software this function is labeled as the "Size/Quality" adjustment or slider. This would obviously affect either or both the high-end and low-end response of the MP3 versus the Lossless file.




Doesnt matter, in the end an MP3 file is still poor quality. CD quality should be bare minimum and Tidal offers that. 


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## tonynca

kumizi said:


> I gave my installer free reign and $$$ to do whatever he wanted and he bet me I couldn't tell the difference between a VXi amp and $3000+ amps. I am a complete amateur but he's been doing this for 30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> "I seriously doubt anyone that's been doing this for decades could tell the difference between modern AB vs D amps inside a car environment. I will bet you any amount of money you won't be able to tell the difference."
> 
> 
> 
> I also spoke to a second installer that is always top 1-2 in SQ competitions down here. His opinion was that if I wanted to compete, he would probably recommend AB amps. If I wanted to listen to music driving down the road with all the surrounding noises, there's no way in hell I'd notice a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Although I swear I can tell a difference between Spotify quality and Tidal HiFi quality and I've only gotten 2/3rd of people that agree with me.




It's becoming quite cliche when someone uses the "oh it's a car...."

This excuse has been used for lack luster tuning, poor quality install and selection of lower end gear. The oh it's a car it's loud and everything will go to waste. 




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## bbfoto

tonynca said:


> Doesnt matter, in the end an MP3 file is still poor quality. CD quality should be bare minimum and Tidal offers that.


I don't want to stray off topic for too much longer, but do a true Double-Blind "A/B/X" listening test to prove this to yourself.

Use a track or tracks from CD(s) that you know really well, ripped to both a 100% Lossless file and to 320kbps CBR MP3, and then try lower MP3 bit rates to see where the quality consistently diverges. And Apple's AAC files are even better quality than MP3 at their respective bit rates.

This is super easy to do if you use the "ABX Comparator" plug-in with the Foobar2000 media player software. 

https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx

I'd say for At Least 75% of popular music you will not be able to tell the difference consistently until you get to bit rates of 256kbps & lower. Of course, this will ultimately depend on the quality, resolution, and accuracy of your entire system, but I challenge everyone to do this just so that they REALLY know for themselves. 


Back on topic...

I'm REALLY interested in seeing independent test & measurement data that includes full T/S specs, xmax/xmech, On/Off-axis polar response to at least 45°, impedance curve, CSD waterfall, and Distortion data for the 3.5M and 8M. The info and graphs that Focal provides for these drivers isn't that meaningful IMO.

However, I doubt that this will ever happen as most guys who do this type of testing usually only test "reasonably priced" DIY drivers...like Ryan on the Impulse Audio YouTube channel, Zaph, etc. And I completely understand, as most DIY'ers don't have that type of coin to spend on drivers, and wouldn't want to anyway.

I'm also not going to spend that kind of money blindly on drivers either without seeing real test data that shows there is better performance at least in some meaningful way compared to the already tested and proven top drivers that are available. Though I know guys like Steven Head have used some of the better Focal drivers with great success for years, so there's that!

And having said that, I have heard Focal's newer Trio11 Be 10" 3-way professional studio monitors, and they were very, very impressive. But in the end I still preferred the neutrality and midrange + high-end detail + smoothness of the ATC SCM25A's.

If I have time and find a Focal dealer within reasonably distance, I will try to go hear these for myself, but I'm not sure hearing them on a generic sound board will be meaningful anyway.

Let me know if any guys in the L.A. area have these installed. Thx


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## SPAZ

Abt located in the Chicagoland area now has them on display. I went there but they were in the process of tuning them on the Mosconi amps (Their new amps look really nice) and DSP. I did not get a good listen of their tweeter/6.5's but I have to say the mid was pretty impressive. The midbass got pretty loud without having a sub running. I will probably go again to have another listen since I'm sure they are tuned now.


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## rton20s

K-pop sucks said:


> Anyone have these in the Bay area California? PM me if you would like to meet up. I'd like to hear them.


Simplicity in Sound in Milpitas. IF, they still have the car there, and IF they are allowed to demo it.


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## cmusic

rton20s said:


> Simplicity in Sound in Milpitas. IF, they still have the car there, and IF they are allowed to demo it.


That car at SIS belongs to a very close friend of mine. Bing and Joey have done an outstanding job on it. The Utopia Ms in it were the very first set sold in the USA. When it is completed and returned to the owner, I get the honor of doing a master tune on it for IASCA and MECA competition. From what Bing has said so far, the new Ms sound much better than the previous generation Utopias, especially the tweeter. The 10" sub sounds and feels much larger than it is too.


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## tonynca

bbfoto said:


> I don't want to stray off topic for too much longer, but do a true Double-Blind "A/B/X" listening test to prove this to yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Use a track or tracks from CD(s) that you know really well, ripped to both a 100% Lossless file and to 320kbps CBR MP3, and then try lower MP3 bit rates to see where the quality consistently diverges. And Apple's AAC files are even better quality than MP3 at their respective bit rates.
> 
> 
> 
> This is super easy to do if you use the "ABX Comparator" plug-in with the Foobar2000 media player software.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say for At Least 75% of popular music you will not be able to tell the difference consistently until you get to bit rates of 256kbps & lower. Of course, this will ultimately depend on the quality, resolution, and accuracy of your entire system, but I challenge everyone to do this just so that they REALLY know for themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back on topic...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm REALLY interested in seeing independent test & measurement data that includes full T/S specs, xmax/xmech, On/Off-axis polar response to at least 45°, impedance curve, CSD waterfall, and Distortion data for the 3.5M and 8M. The info and graphs that Focal provides for these drivers isn't that meaningful IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I doubt that this will ever happen as most guys who do this type of testing usually only test "reasonably priced" DIY drivers...like Ryan on the Impulse Audio YouTube channel, Zaph, etc. And I completely understand, as most DIY'ers don't have that type of coin to spend on drivers, and wouldn't want to anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also not going to spend that kind of money blindly on drivers either without seeing real test data that shows there is better performance at least in some meaningful way compared to the already tested and proven top drivers that are available. Though I know guys like Steven Head have used some of the better Focal drivers with great success for years, so there's that!
> 
> 
> 
> And having said that, I have heard Focal's newer Trio11 Be 10" 3-way professional studio monitors, and they were very, very impressive. But in the end I still preferred the neutrality and midrange + high-end detail + smoothness of the ATC SCM25A's.
> 
> 
> 
> If I have time and find a Focal dealer within reasonably distance, I will try to go hear these for myself, but I'm not sure hearing them on a generic sound board will be meaningful anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if any guys in the L.A. area have these installed. Thx




I also don't want to go off topic too much as well but will have to add one last thing to what you said about MP3 before leaving it at that. The content of what you're listening to matters a lot as well. If you're listening to highly dynamic recordings it will be much more apparent when listening to lossless. Think of it as this... If your recording is poor the difference between CD 1400Kbps and 320kbps probably won't reveal that the recording is any poorer, but if you're listening to very well dynamically mixed and mastered songs you are going to reveal the missing information that compression is going to destroy. But nowadays people are listening to a lot of highly compressed and limited synthesized music which doesn't have much depth and detail to it.

It appears that your ears have been through some studio grade gear. Please note that when you start getting into those high end studio monitors it's not really for listening pleasure. They are going to ruin some songs you normally like by revealing what's wrong with those songs. If you listened to one or two songs on them it's probably not a good thing to judge them. You really need hours on them and a wide range of songs to start seeing their capabilities. Genelec 8351 is a great set of monitors that will destroy enjoyment of poorly mixed or mastered songs. The users of these types of monitors are generally using them for production purposes not enjoyment of music. 


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## bbfoto

cmusic said:


> That car at SIS belongs to a very close friend of mine. Bing and Joey have done an outstanding job on it. The Utopia Ms in it were the very first set sold in the USA. When it is completed and returned to the owner, I get the honor of doing a master tune on it for IASCA and MECA competition. From what Bing has said so far, the new Ms sound much better than the previous generation Utopias, especially the tweeter. The 10" sub sounds and feels much larger than it is too.


Chuck, thanks for posting this. Lucky guys! I'd be really interested in your impressions of the system after you've had a chance to tune it. 

I would imagine (and hope) that these new W+M-cone Focal drivers sound much better than the previous version as the new drivers cost considerably more. All things being equal, I would expect a competition vehicle with these drivers installed to take home trophies at least in the Top 5.

I know that the newer Trio11 Be studio monitors do sound REALLY REALLY good compared to past iterations I've heard (especially in having a smoother but still detailed high-end), so I do expect the car audio versions to be a good step up as well.


On a side note, I have my reservations about using any type of beryllium drivers in a vehicle. I used the Scanspeak Beryllium tweeters for a while in one of my installs. They were phenomenal...one of the best I've heard...but I decided to remove them and replace them with the tiny Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters, which ended up working equally well as I was only using the Scans from about 5k & up anyway.

I realize that the odds are very slim, but if the beryllium domes were to be damaged during an auto accident, you could be putting yourself and your passengers, plus any rescue/emergency crew, at risk due to the potential toxic elements.

IMO we have enough toxic crap in the environment already and I don't feel it's necessary to add any other potential risks. I look forward to the day (coming very soon it seems) when tweeters and other drivers are made from Graphene cones and domes. From the research and development done so far, it looks as if graphene will have even better properties for use in transducers compared to beryllium. And AFAIK, graphene will not be toxic.

Just my .02


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## cmusic

bbfoto said:


> Chuck, thanks for posting this. Lucky guys! I'd be really interested in your impressions of the system after you've had a chance to tune it.


Thanks! I'll be sure to post my thoughts on the Ms. Bing is doing an initial "everyday" tune to the car before he ships it back to KY from CA. The owner plans on competing in MECA and IASCA this year, considering the joint finals is only about an hour and 15 minutes from his home. Shortly after the owner gets the car back I will be taking a good long listen to it and do some more tuning to (hopefully) more what competition judges are listening for. 



bbfoto said:


> On a side note, I have my reservations about using any type of beryllium drivers in a vehicle. I used the Scanspeak Beryllium tweeters for a while in one of my installs. They were phenomenal...one of the best I've heard...but I decided to remove them and replace them with the tiny Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters, which ended up working equally well as I was only using the Scans from about 5k & up anyway.
> 
> ....


Funny you mention the Scan beryllium and the Gladen Aerospace tweeters. I've got a set of Scan D3004/604000 beryllium tweeters that I plan on installing in my system soon. I'm excited about how they will sound. 

When the owner of this car and Bing was planning out the system, the owner knew he wanted to go with the new Mosconi Pro amps and Bing recommended a whole Gladen Aerospace 3-way and 10" sub speaker setup. Then shortly before the car was shipped out to Bing, the Utopia Ms were announced. Bing, being a shop that sells and installs a great amount of products from ORCA Design (North American Mosconi and Focal importer), was lucky enough to get to order the first publicly available set of Utopia Ms in North America. (The Utopia Ms that were shown at CES in "home" speaker cabinets in January was a pre-production set made for marketing purposes.)


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## rton20s

bbfoto said:


> IMO we have enough toxic crap in the environment already and I don't feel it's necessary to add any other potential risks. I look forward to the day (coming very soon it seems) when tweeters and other drivers are made from Graphene cones and domes. From the research and development done so far, it looks as if graphene will have even better properties for use in transducers compared to beryllium. And AFAIK, graphene will not be toxic.
> 
> Just my .02


Not to get too far off topic, but I have been casually following graphene development and audio applications ever since you posted about the ORA headphones on here. Very cool stuff, and it definitely looks like the direction we'll be moving in the future. 

I'm curious if Alpine might be one of the first to bring it to the car audio market. They are already using carbon graphite sheets to make the tweeter in the X Series components. I wonder how much more difficult it will be to go from a carbon graphite sheet (3D molecular structure) to graphene nano platelets (2D molecular structure) for a company like Alps. 

I also wouldn't be too worried about toxicity of the material. It is just carbon after all. How many people have ever died from licking a pencil?


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## tonynca

rton20s said:


> Not to get too far off topic, but I have been casually following graphene development and audio applications ever since you posted about the ORA headphones on here. Very cool stuff, and it definitely looks like the direction we'll be moving in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious if Alpine might be one of the first to bring it to the car audio market. They are already using carbon graphite sheets to make the tweeter in the X Series components. I wonder how much more difficult it will be to go from a carbon graphite sheet (3D molecular structure) to graphene nano platelets (2D molecular structure) for a company like Alps.
> 
> 
> 
> I also wouldn't be too worried about toxicity of the material. It is just carbon after all. How many people have ever died from licking a pencil?




He was referring to beryllium being toxic not graphene 


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## rton20s

tonynca said:


> He was referring to beryllium being toxic not graphene
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My last statement was in agreement with his last statement about the toxicity of graphene. 



bbfoto said:


> And AFAIK, graphene will not be toxic.


I'm well aware of the toxicity concerns with beryllium.


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## Paclypse71

Asdcreation said:


> Ordered 3 way system with 6.5/3.5/tweeters with 10wm sub will be powered by jl vxi amps ,might will keep the other jl sub for extra boom ;with vxi drc controls pretty easy to disable/ enable jl sub whenever needed


I'd love to hear your impressions of the 10WM sub and if you have any comparison to the E 25 KX sub. I plan to go with a TBM/8WM front stage, 3" K drivers for rear fill and 10WM sub, powered by Mosconi AS100.4 and AS200.4. I only have room for the one sub and I'm not sure if I'd need a sub with extra boom.


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## K-pop sucks

Anyone do a shootout comparison between the Dynaudio esotar 2, focal be, and Morel supremo?


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## drop1

I'm late to this party it seems.
I do have some thoughts however.

While focal may be discontinuing the older utopia line it appears they are not going to stop manufacturing the drivers as their upper studio monitor lines rely on them. 
I have to wonder if there is any plans on monitors coming out that incorporate the m series.
I've run utopias and enjoyed them a lot. They were occasionally a little analytical but could be tuned up to combat that. 
My only complaint with the older utopias was output. 
Any of us that tunes knows what a db push or pull here and there can do to your sound.
Any decent drivers should be able to be tuned to have a great frequency response.
That leaves the way it handles dynamics due to control and lack of distortion . 
If they sound "better" it would seem obvious that they aren't shooting for accurate in the strictest sense.
I'd like to hear them but using someone elses vehicle as a platform for a demo isn't really a good idea. I'd like to hear them in a treated room for ab comparisons with the older models. 

They may sound better than previous models but I'd imagine that the heavy pricing is paying for R And D and well, just cause "focal".

Driver after driver through the years have always been the next big thing.

Making drivers that few can afford and that most who buy them will spend all the money it takes to get them to sound good in a car just leads me to believe that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on. If not where is the super high end home and studio options? The 2 places where it is far easier to hear the difference. 
If they truly created drivers that are that much superior I'd expect them to be at least in the top tier home speakers. The car audio world is a much smaller platform than the home audio world. Their studio monitors run the gambit on previous focal driver tech. Several different tiers of drivers used. 
Maybe I'm wrong and they have home designs in the works but it seems silly to unleash the car driver first if that's the case. 
Consider that their grande utopia evos are $230,000 bucks. How much better, or more valuable, can these car speakers be?


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## rob3980

I’m not sure but they better be damn good if not the best for the hefty price tag they carry. I ordered a 3 way set of them this morning with the 8”.


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## OCD66

Just saw them tonight. That 8 is crazy. So thin with that massive voice coil. Very tasty.


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## GreatLaBroski

rob3980 said:


> I’m not sure but they better be damn good if not the best for the hefty price tag they carry. I ordered a 3 way set of them this morning with the 8”.


Very curious to hear your impressions.


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## rob3980

GreatLaBroski said:


> rob3980 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m not sure but they better be damn good if not the best for the hefty price tag they carry. I ordered a 3 way set of them this morning with the 8”.
> 
> 
> 
> Very curious to hear your impressions. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
Click to expand...

Gonna be a little while as I have to wait for the new Helix mk3 or Audiofrog dsp to drop.


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## bbfoto

rob3980 said:


> Gonna be a little while as I have to wait for the new Helix mk3 or Audiofrog dsp to drop.


Yeah, unfortunately that could be a while. 

I can't remember if you were planning to do a Center Channel or not...I'm assuming you are if you're waiting for the Helix DSP Pro MK III or AudioFrog DSP?

Even though it doesn't have the "Real Center" upmixing, I would honestly look for a decent used Helix DSP Pro Mk II, just to allow you to get a jump start on your install.

This is still a very powerful and excellent sounding processor and you could use the less expensive basic UR-Cx remote instead of the Director remote, or make your own with the tutorial here.

The DSP Pro MK II can be found fairly inexpensively now, and by the time the MK III or Audiofrog DSP comes out, you'd probably only lose $100 or so I when reselling the MK II since IMO it will still be a solid & viable option for those who aren't interested in using a center channel.

If you are doing a center channel, you could also go ahead and install that equipment now along with the wiring for it so that when you acquire the MK III or AF DSP it should be a fairly straightforward swap.

This would also give you a really good reference point between having a nicely dialed-in one-seat setup, as opposed to the "Real Center" or Audiofrog center channel implementation later on.

I'm personally only interested in just the 8MW and 3.5MW. While the updated beryllium tweeter is much smoother while still being extremely detailed (at least from what I heard in the new Trilo11 Be studio monitors), I would probably want to pair the 3.5MW with a smaller diameter tweeter for better directivity/power response.


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## SkizeR

there will be no helix mk3 in the near future. The next one is the dsp.3, then the dsp ultra. DSP.3 hardware is done from what i have seen. DSP ultra is in the concept stages right now.


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## STAMCA

I currently am running a set of No. 7 active in my car and tbh I am a bit disappointed in the hot/sibilant tweeter. Huge fan of the SM6/9 series and the home audio speakers with beryllium tweeters, but I just can't turn the No. 7's up very loud without cringing. Wondering if this is an inherent limitation of the super reflective car environment...

For those that have heard the new M's have you noticed any differences in this department?


----------



## bbfoto

SkizeR said:


> there will be no helix mk3 in the near future. The next one is the dsp.3, then the dsp ultra. DSP.3 hardware is done from what i have seen. DSP ultra is in the concept stages right now.


Good to know... and there you go.

And based on what he's let out of the bag so far, I also doubt that Andy's AudioFrog DSP will be available within this year as well. I'd like for that not to be true, but realistically I don't see it happening.


----------



## bbfoto

STAMCA said:


> I currently am running a set of No. 7 active in my car and tbh I am a bit disappointed in the hot/sibilant tweeter. Huge fan of the SM6/9 series and the home audio speakers with beryllium tweeters, but I just can't turn the No. 7's up very loud without cringing. Wondering if this is an inherent limitation of the super reflective car environment...
> 
> For those that have heard the new M's have you noticed any differences in this department?


A LOT comes down to the tweeter placement+angling as well as tuning, so there's that. But the updated Focal beryllium tweeter is definitely a bit smoother and better in that regard. 

But honestly, if you're hell-bent on having a beryllium tweeter, I would probably opt for one of the Scanspeak or Satori versions. And I'm still a really big fan of the Hiquphon OW1 if they will fit. You can even cut the plastic flange on each side to almost perfectly match the focal tweeters.  And the 3/4" dome is also recessed just below the surface of the front flange.


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## rob3980

SkizeR said:


> there will be no helix mk3 in the near future. The next one is the dsp.3, then the dsp ultra. DSP.3 hardware is done from what i have seen. DSP ultra is in the concept stages right now.



Probably should of kept my mk2. Plan was to get out of car audio for awhile it didn’t even last 2 days lol


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## SPAZ

I installed the tweeters replacing the Morel Piccolo and so far they do run hot but I think they are very sensitive and do not require a lot of power, especially over the Morel's. I've had to really lower the input on these tweets and they sound very good but I still need to tune them more (I'm not good at tuning)


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## tonynca

STAMCA said:


> I currently am running a set of No. 7 active in my car and tbh I am a bit disappointed in the hot/sibilant tweeter. Huge fan of the SM6/9 series and the home audio speakers with beryllium tweeters, but I just can't turn the No. 7's up very loud without cringing. Wondering if this is an inherent limitation of the super reflective car environment...
> 
> 
> 
> For those that have heard the new M's have you noticed any differences in this department?




I hope you are using the Harman curve. In a car environment the windows and windshield tends to amplify the tweeters. Through many years of learning to tune I could never run the tweeters flat because of its harshness at high volume. I'm talking 100db+. At 85db it's ok and you won't run into fatigue but if you start cranking them up at high volume the resonance caused by the reflective surfaces comes back to pierce your ears.

I learned that for every room there's an EQ curve that works better for it. 

In very large rooms like movie theaters they run an x curve to tame high frequencies since they're playing very dynamic and high output sounds. 

In my small room that I use to produce music I could run a flat EQ curve with no harshness even at 100db. I'm using Sonarworks with a pair of Dynaudio BM5 MK3 to EQ my room and it's a night and day difference when it flattens out the room response. 


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## JamesRC

SkizeR said:


> there will be no helix mk3 in the near future. The next one is the dsp.3, then the dsp ultra. DSP.3 hardware is done from what i have seen. DSP ultra is in the concept stages right now.


I was actually just telling Rob this morning, but "DSP Ultra" is my street name.


----------



## Elektra

STAMCA said:


> I currently am running a set of No. 7 active in my car and tbh I am a bit disappointed in the hot/sibilant tweeter. Huge fan of the SM6/9 series and the home audio speakers with beryllium tweeters, but I just can't turn the No. 7's up very loud without cringing. Wondering if this is an inherent limitation of the super reflective car environment...
> 
> 
> 
> For those that have heard the new M's have you noticed any differences in this department?




What source are you using? 

I have the Kit 7’s active and they are butter - tweeters totally invisible. 

You must have done something wrong on the wiring or setup or your using the Sony GS9.....

I have a demo a few days ago to a guy who had a full AF GB 3 way and sub setup - he preferred my setup. 

So he is now looking at the M’s since he liked the Kit 7’s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audiocholic

wonder how the Micro precision 7mk3 compares to these Focal previous and new Utopia's
I know the Z studio is phrased for but believe thats the Ultima leage?


----------



## Elektra

audiocholic said:


> wonder how the Micro precision 7mk3 compares to these Focal previous and new Utopia's
> 
> I know the Z studio is phrased for but believe thats the Ultima leage?




I know someone who prefers the new M tweeter to the Z Studio tweeter - I think the M’s will surpass the MP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audiocholic

Elektra said:


> I know someone who prefers the new M tweeter to the Z Studio tweeter - I think the M’s will surpass the MP
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




truth is I can get Focal utopia kit active for identical price of Micro 7mk3 3 ways and wonder which has the upperhand.


----------



## STAMCA

Elektra said:


> What source are you using?
> 
> I have the Kit 7’s active and they are butter - tweeters totally invisible.
> 
> You must have done something wrong on the wiring or setup or your using the Sony GS9.....
> 
> I have a demo a few days ago to a guy who had a full AF GB 3 way and sub setup - he preferred my setup.
> 
> So he is now looking at the M’s since he liked the Kit 7’s
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I've got an external SSD into a clarion NX807 clean, then out the optical to a bitoneHD. Tweeters are in custom dash pods and off-axis. I absolutely love how they sound at moderate levels, but crank something like Queen and my ears almost bleed.

I'm thinking the bitone HD in FIR mode doesn't have enough bands to control the top end enough perhaps? I've been contemplating either swapping out the speakers for something with a soft dome tweeter, or even checking out the brax dsp instead. But then with all of these glowing reviews of the M line...


----------



## SkizeR

tune


----------



## Elektra

STAMCA said:


> I've got an external SSD into a clarion NX807 clean, then out the optical to a bitoneHD. Tweeters are in custom dash pods and off-axis. I absolutely love how they sound at moderate levels, but crank something like Queen and my ears almost bleed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the bitone HD in FIR mode doesn't have enough bands to control the top end enough perhaps? I've been contemplating either swapping out the speakers for something with a soft dome tweeter, or even checking out the brax dsp instead. But then with all of these glowing reviews of the M line...




You need to spend time tuning the system properly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

STAMCA said:


> I've got an external SSD into a clarion NX807 clean, then out the optical to a bitoneHD. Tweeters are in custom dash pods and off-axis. I absolutely love how they sound at moderate levels, but crank something like Queen and my ears almost bleed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the bitone HD in FIR mode doesn't have enough bands to control the top end enough perhaps? I've been contemplating either swapping out the speakers for something with a soft dome tweeter, or even checking out the brax dsp instead. But then with all of these glowing reviews of the M line...




Harshness in treble can also be the midrange drivers ... get your system measured to see if you have an peaks or dips 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca

Elektra said:


> Harshness in treble can also be the midrange drivers ... get your system measured to see if you have an peaks or dips
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




This is true. Especially 2-3khz which is the attack of the clap, cymbals and high hat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbfoto

Paclypse71 said:


> I’m planning on doing the 8WM/3.5WM/TBM in my 2014 Infiniti Q60 but haven’t found anyone making custom panels for it. I’d probably be mounting the 8’s and 3.5’s in the factory door locations with the tweeters pod mounted low on the A-Pillars. Could you tell/show me what mounting hardware comes with the TBM’s? Thanks.


Check out the Focal TBM Spec Sheet and Info Sheet on www.focal-america.com They show photos & the measurements of the tweeter with & w/o the flush-mounting cup which is the only mounting hardware provided. The tweeter is super shallow by itself! ...

https://www.focal-america.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FT_Utopia_TBM.pdf

https://www.focal-america.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FP_TBM_GB.pdf

And I _usually_ prefer tweeters that are mounted in the Sail Panel area (if your vehicle has them & can fit the TBMs) over most A-Pillar mounted tweeters.



NA$TY-TA said:


> ...Now seeing as they say you can do that 2 way setup (8” & tweeter) I wonder how it would sound with 8” in the doors. I’m contemplating going this route right now and retiring my 165W’s and if I’m not totally satisfied and can always add the 3.5’s in the a-pillars at a later date





Paclypse71 said:


> ...I plan to go with a TBM/8WM front stage, 3" K drivers for rear fill and 10WM sub, powered by Mosconi AS100.4 and AS200.4...





tonynca said:


> In a two way especially for woofers at the bottom door panels the 1khz+ don't sound as clear as a 3 way 3" mounted at the a-pillar. I tried my best getting the mid-range to sound right but it was always so hollow due to the 500hz and 1.25khz null spot.
> 
> If you're spending this type of money might as well make the most of it and do 3 way.


Agreed. If at all possible, I would try to get the 3" K or 3.5WM midrange drivers (or another good small mid) up front to make it a 3-way front. IMO, unless you are able to get the 8WM fairly On-Axis, they will definitely be in the beaming range just due to their physical diameter when trying to match them up to a tweeter.

Just because they are capable of playing higher doesn't automatically mean that they should be. As _tonyinca_ mentioned, midrange response will probably be a bit tricky to get right with the 8WM drivers so far Off-Axis in the doors. I'd be interested to hear from anybody who tries it tho'!

IMO, I think it's really going to be the 3.5WM that are the special sauce (along with the updated TBM tweeters). I'm REALLY eager to try those M-cone mids, but $1000 for a pair of 3.5" drivers is a bit hard to swallow. However, I'm fairly certain that they really will be top-notch performers. I would still like to see some reputable, independent test data on them, but I'm afraid that's highly unlikely.

I think that the real draw to using the 8WM driver will be their shallow mounting depth. I'd like to see true linear Xmax & Xmech #'s & Distortion figures compared to other 8" or even 6.5"-7" drivers, but I could see these being far easier to install in doors, floors, and kickpanels compared to almost any other 8" on the market. You just have to "Pay to Play"! 

Side Note: I've heard that one thing that Nick Wingate Jr (head ORCA Focal/Illusion/Mosconi rep & trainer) believes in when using Focal drivers and in general, is matching all of the subwoofer/midbass/midrange/tweeter drivers by using drivers from the same line or series...Timbre matching.

BUT, having said that, his SQ winning Silverado truck is using Illusion Audio Carbon CX-C3 coaxials in the top dash corners in custom angled baffles, Focal 6.5" Flax midwoofers in the stock door locations (in multi-layer highly-deadened baffles), and the Raven XL12 subwoofer. 




rton20s said:


> Not to get too far off topic, but I have been casually following graphene development and audio applications ever since you posted about the ORA headphones on here. Very cool stuff, and it definitely looks like the direction we'll be moving in the future.
> 
> I'm curious if Alpine might be one of the first to bring it to the car audio market. They are already using carbon graphite sheets to make the tweeter in the X Series components. I wonder how much more difficult it will be to go from a carbon graphite sheet (3D molecular structure) to graphene nano platelets (2D molecular structure) for a company like Alps.


I believe that ORA SOUND specifically chose a very popular segment of the market (Headphones!) in order to acquire the largest amount of funding to help them DEVELOP and PATENT the Graphene diaphragm/cone manufacturing process. 

The special graphene binding agents and process are their closely-guarded secret, and I believe that their ultimate goal is to "corner the market" by offering Graphene-manufactured cones and complete drivers to the OEM market...

Basically ANY PRODUCT that would require the use of a high-quality speaker, especially in a small form factor....think flat-panel HDTVs, Soundbars, Bose & Sonos home networked speakers, Automotive, portable BT Speakers, you name it....areas where Tang-Band, Hi-Vi, and Aura Whispers dominate.

We'll see how it pans out for them. Potential commercial OEM clients may opt to pay the premium or licensing fees to ORA SOUND rather than have to spend big $$$ in R&D to develop a completely different & efficient process that doesn't infringe on Ora's Graphene-Q patent.



rob3980 said:


> Probably should of kept my mk2. Plan was to get out of car audio for awhile it didn’t even last 2 days lol


LOL, Funny how that works!  I've been in the same boat & feel your pain. :blush:


----------



## bbfoto

SPAZ said:


> I installed the tweeters replacing the Morel Piccolo and so far they do run hot but I think they are very sensitive and do not require a lot of power, especially over the Morel's. I've had to really lower the input on these tweets and they sound very good but I still need to tune them more (I'm not good at tuning)


Any updates? Have you had time to dial in the TBM's so that they're more balanced? If so, what are your impressions? In the past I've tended to favor the detailed but smooth properties of the Supremo/Piccolo tweeters.

And IME the Morel tweeters (and Morel drivers in general) aren't super efficient and take some extra power to wake them up, so I could imagine the TBM's being a bit hot as drop-in replacements!




haakono said:


> From the official website it seems they have priced them othervise now:
> 
> TBM: $2190 a pair
> 3.5WM: $690 each
> 6WM: $2000 a pair
> 8WM: $1250 each
> 10WM: $1570 each
> 
> https://www.focal-america.com/lines/utopia-m/


Just realized that I had received the latest Crutchfield catalog in my pile of mail. In the U.S. they list the retail prices as what was previously stated, not the above (see my attached image directly from the Crutchfield catalog):

TBM Tweeters (Pair) USD $1499.99
3.5WM Midrange (Each) USD $499.99
6WM midwoofers (Pair) USD $1399.99
8WM Woofer (Each) USD $999.99
SUB10WM Subwoofer (Each) USD 1249.99

And the U.S. www.abt.com website lists them with these prices as well.

So I *might* have to eat my own words, as I feel that I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on those 3.5WM mids sight unseen & ears unheard. :blush:

I realize that it's unlikely that anyone will do detailed measurements on these anytime soon, and only my own ears & measurements can decide if they really bring the special sauce or not. 

I'm gonna check with local dealers regarding pricing tho' before going the Online route.

But if anybody has a killer discount/coupon code for Crutchfield or ABT please let me know ASAP, haha! 

[email protected] this hobby! :mean: 

.


----------



## SPAZ

I did a little bit more tuning and they are sounding even better now. I'm getting that exact sound I was looking for. I listen to a lot of EDM music so I like the forward/detail sounds with no sibilance or harshness. Everything also sounds so realistic. I think Focal has a winner in these IMO. As much as I love the piccolos I will be keeping these.


----------



## bbfoto

SPAZ said:


> I did a little bit more tuning and they are sounding even better now. I'm getting that exact sound I was looking for. I listen to a lot of EDM music so I like the forward/detail sounds with no sibilance or harshness. Everything also sounds so realistic. I think Focal has a winner in these IMO. As much as I love the piccolos I will be keeping these.


Nice! Thanks for your thoughts. For the price I would hope they are [email protected] good! :laugh:

Looks as if it's time to change your sig now, too.


----------



## K-pop sucks

They seem to be over priced retail. I'll wait for used.


----------



## bbfoto

K-pop sucks said:


> They seem to be over priced retail. I'll wait for used.


Good luck with that.  Gems like this tend to stay in the owner's hands and in their install, and they tend to hold their value until something _substantially_ better supersedes them. After hearing these in the Trio11 Be monitors, I have a feeling that could be a while. 

Sure, realistically I'd be happier to see these go out the door for $1200 or less, but Focal is one of those ultra-premium "French" brands like Haute Couture fashion, and Beryllium is expensive and certainly isn't easy to work with, so whatchagonnado?

Besides, I bet a good local dealer might help out a bit on pricing if you were nice enough and had a good relationship.


----------



## K-pop sucks

bbfoto said:


> K-pop sucks said:
> 
> 
> 
> They seem to be over priced retail. I'll wait for used.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with that. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Razz" class="inlineimg" /> Gems like this tend to stay in the owner's hands and in their install, and they tend to hold their value until something _substantially_ better supersedes them. After hearing these in the Trio11 Be monitors, I have a feeling that could be a while. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> Sure, realistically I'd be happier to see these go out the door for $1200 or less, but Focal is one of those ultra-premium "French" brands like Haute Couture fashion, and Beryllium is expensive and certainly isn't easy to work with, so whatchagonnado?
> 
> Besides, I bet a good local dealer might help out a bit on pricing if you were nice enough and had a good relationship.
Click to expand...

The driver price shows how over priced their home speakers are imo I see the Utopia M2 kit165w-xp on abt for $1999 and the previous gen 165wrc kit for less than $1000.


----------



## SPAZ

Ever since I got the beryllium headphones and listened to a couple of the speakers using beryllium tweeters (Focal and Revel) I think there is something special about them sound wise that I really like. I'm not saying it is for everyone but if you have the opportunity to hear them you might like it.


----------



## SPAZ

bbfoto said:


> Nice! Thanks for your thoughts. For the price I would hope they are [email protected] good! :laugh:
> 
> Looks as if it's time to change your sig now, too.


Done


----------



## SkizeR

K-pop sucks said:


> I don't get why people are all on this Beryllium hype train. It isn't the holy Grail on speaker materials. Just because a speaker has Beryllium vapor desposited driver doesn't mean the speaker is better than the competition. Then you have to factor in is it pure Beryllium or a Beryllium alloy?


Yeah man, I also dont get why people bother with time alignment and eq either. That was you, right? 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## JamesRC

K-pop sucks said:


> I don't get why people are all on this Beryllium hype train. It isn't the holy Grail on speaker materials. Just because a speaker has Beryllium vapor desposited driver doesn't mean the speaker is better than the competition. Then you have to factor in is it pure Beryllium or a Beryllium alloy?


This is how it went for me.

Listens to a set of Focal M's.

"Wow. Those tweeters are . . . _really_ detailed and natural." 

Dealer: "These are their beryllium tweeters."


----------



## Redliner99

SkizeR said:


> Yeah man, I also dont get why people bother with time alignment and eq either. That was you, right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk




Indeed it was him! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

I wonder if kpop can explain why beryllium isnt worth the supposed hype. So kpop, what changes when you take a soft dome tweeter, and change it to beryllium with all other things being equal? 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## K-pop sucks

SkizeR said:


> K-pop sucks said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get why people are all on this Beryllium hype train. It isn't the holy Grail on speaker materials. Just because a speaker has Beryllium vapor desposited driver doesn't mean the speaker is better than the competition. Then you have to factor in is it pure Beryllium or a Beryllium alloy?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah man, I also dont get why people bother with time alignment and eq either. That was you, right? <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Keep beating a dead horse, why don't you? I have retracted my claims about ta and EQ on a system is unnecessary and a waste of time. My claim that I still stand by is that the improvement will be miniscule once you turn on your engine and start rolling down the road.


----------



## rob3980

Patiently waiting for some pods and sub box to be built and then I’ll finally be able to hear these bad boys. I’m coming from Audiofrog Gb 3 ways and Hertz Mille 3 ways so hopefully the Utopia Ms are worth the Ching I forked out. That being said I got a great deal from my local shop on them.


----------



## bertholomey

SPAZ said:


> Ever since I got the beryllium headphones and listened to a couple of the speakers using beryllium tweeters (Focal and Revel) I think there is something special about them sound wise that I really like. I'm not saying it is for everyone but if you have the opportunity to hear them you might like it.




I experienced the same with my Utopia headphones - to my ears, the highs are something special - a quality I have not experienced with the multitude of headphones I have listened to in the last couple years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Elektra

SPAZ said:


> I did a little bit more tuning and they are sounding even better now. I'm getting that exact sound I was looking for. I listen to a lot of EDM music so I like the forward/detail sounds with no sibilance or harshness. Everything also sounds so realistic. I think Focal has a winner in these IMO. As much as I love the piccolos I will be keeping these.




Which Focal tweeters are you referring to here the M or the TBE range? 

I don’t drive my car that much as I have another car and when I do I honestly feel the Kit 7’s are fantastic and hard to beat the M’s must be amazing if they can top the Kit 7’s 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SPAZ

Elektra said:


> Which Focal tweeters are you referring to here the M or the TBE range?
> 
> I don’t drive my car that much as I have another car and when I do I honestly feel the Kit 7’s are fantastic and hard to beat the M’s must be amazing if they can top the Kit 7’s
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Elektra, I am talking about the TBM tweeter which is part of the M series. I've heard the Kit 7's only on the sound board and they sounded great on it. The M series speakers when I heard at the sound board they didn't sound that good because shop was right in the middle of tuning them so cannot knock them so I pretty much purchased them without really listening to them fully configured.


----------



## rob3980

SPAZ said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which Focal tweeters are you referring to here the M or the TBE range?
> 
> I don’t drive my car that much as I have another car and when I do I honestly feel the Kit 7’s are fantastic and hard to beat the M’s must be amazing if they can top the Kit 7’s
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Elektra, I am talking about the TBM tweeter which is part of the M series. I've heard the Kit 7's only on the sound board and they sounded great on it. The M series speakers when I heard at the sound board they didn't sound that good because shop was right in the middle of tuning them so cannot knock them so I pretty much purchased them without really listening to them fully configured.
Click to expand...

Spaz I’m not too far from Chicago. I should be there this summer visiting quick audi and family. I’ll have my new Ram with me and I also have Utopia M 3 ways. Would be interested in meeting up and listening to yours vs mine. 

My tuner is out of Chicago if you need a great tuner let me know. His name is Steve Rodgers.


----------



## SPAZ

rob3980 said:


> Spaz I’m not too far from Chicago. I should be there this summer visiting quick audi and family. I’ll have my new Ram with me and I also have Utopia M 3 ways. Would be interested in meeting up and listening to yours vs mine.
> 
> My tuner is out of Chicago if you need a great tuner let me know. His name is Steve Rodgers.


Sending you a PM thanks


----------



## haakono

Hey guys, I originally placed an order for 6WM midbass drivers, but I realistically have plenty of space to install 8WM drivers instead. Should I just go for those from the start?

This is the cutout for the OEM drivers that are 6,5".


----------



## Asdcreation

For easy route go 6wm ,they are amazing speakers ,you can add 10wm sub in the back for nice combo & best sq ,I was also thought of going of 8wm but custom work involved can be big headache, it depends on vehicle ,some it's easy, in some it costs lot more $$ & time which is not worth it


----------



## SPAZ

haakono said:


> Hey guys, I originally placed an order for 6WM midbass drivers, but I realistically have plenty of space to install 8WM drivers instead. Should I just go for those from the start?
> 
> This is the cutout for the OEM drivers that are 6,5".


Are you going with a 2-way or 3-way setup?


----------



## bbfoto

haakono said:


> Hey guys, I originally placed an order for 6WM midbass drivers, but I realistically have plenty of space to install 8WM drivers instead. Should I just go for those from the start?
> 
> This is the cutout for the OEM drivers that are 6,5".





SPAZ said:


> Are you going with a 2-way or 3-way setup?


Yeah, same question here. So...

If 2-way, probably not. But if you're going with a 3-way including the 3.5WM or a similar small midrange, then yes, you might want to go with the 8WM. I love that they are shallow mount!

HOWEVER, I haven't seen REAL Xmax+Xsus or Distortion #'s for the 8WM, and for the limited bandwidth it will be playing that's A LOT of CASH MONEY when there could possibly be an equal or better driver that's much less expensive....even a Scanspeak, etc.

Wish those JL ZR-800CW midbass were still widely available! And for the price even the newest SI TM65 MK III might give the 8WM a run for the money depending on Xmax vs. Sd and your passband, etc.


In other news, I finally caved-in and ordered a pair of the Utopia 3.5WM mids. My closest Focal dealer decided he didn't want me walking out the door without hooking me up with a fairly decent deal on them (tho' still F'ing expensive IMO for a pair of 3.5" mids)! They weren't in stock so I'm gonna have to wait a bit for 'em, but I've still got some system planning to do, so it'll probably work out perfectly.

I'm gearing up to start a new build now that the weather is just starting to warm up (I think!?), so I want to see how they fair against a few other mids I've already got on hand.

I'll probably be pairing them up with the Aerospace 20 tweeters due to my very limited space, and GB60s or possibly the good old Peerless XLS8 serving midbass duty.

I'm gonna be doing some driver testing to see what combinations I think are going to work best, so it might be a while before they actually get installed...if they do make the cut. I'm hoping they will for the price of these little suckers. :blush:

I actually got to see & hold the ToTL *JL Audio 3.5" C7-350cm midrange drivers* while at the shop, too. For some reason, I hadn't seen or realized that these existed. :blush: Unfortunately, these weren't available to demo either. 

However, they look REALLY nice and are stout & heavy little buggers. BEAUTIFUL construction, except for what seemed to be a very sloppy "glue-up" between the VC former & the cone.  I was really surprised at this.

They come with two different styles of really nice mesh grills and a nicely-machined & anodized aluminum trim ring that's not unnecessarily large like the Audiofrog GB series drivers (IMO). Had to really hold myself back from purchasing these as well, haha!  But the cone on these little guys seemed really heavy, and the suspension was really stiff...almost like a high power handling sub. 

Anyway, so many good drivers on the market now! Need to get a pair of M3 mids from Nick @ SI to test as well I guess. :blush:


----------



## bertholomey

Let us know Billy when you start a build log. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## JimmyDee

rob3980 said:


> I’m coming from Audiofrog Gb 3 ways and Hertz Mille 3 ways so hopefully the Utopia Ms are worth the Ching I forked out.


Definitely interested to hear your opinion of the new Utopias, versus your previous Audiofrog GB set.

I've been considering this new Focal set myself. I just wonder how the 3.5WM compares to my Esotar 430. 
I may just get the TBM tweeters and a set of 8WM's, and nestle my E430's in the middle.


----------



## haakono

Ah, should have made myself more clear  

I have the TBM, 3,5WM and 6WM on order (takes a while before they are in stock over here), but I do have plenty of space for the 8WM. These will be powered (at first at least) by a Helix P Six. Sub stage consists of 2x Helix Q10W 10" subwoofers powered by a Helix M One each. 

In addition to having space in the doors, my weird car (Nissan Cube) has plenty of space for enclosures in the actual floor. Between the carpet and the actual (metal) floor of the car there are almost 4" thick polystyrene "spacers" that raise the floor level, these are about 15x20" in width and length. So a decent sized sealed enclosure could be made completely under the stock floor level on each side. By swapping the polystyrene blocks for custom enclosures.

Currently running the Focal PS165F3 3-way components with mids and tweeters in mirror triangles/sail panels and midbass in doors.


----------



## rob3980

jimmydee said:


> rob3980 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m coming from Audiofrog Gb 3 ways and Hertz Mille 3 ways so hopefully the Utopia Ms are worth the Ching I forked out.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely interested to hear your opinion of the new Utopias, versus your previous Audiofrog GB set.
> 
> I've been considering this new Focal set myself. I just wonder how the 3.5WM compares to my Esotar 430.
> I may just get the TBM tweeters and a set of 8WM's, and nestle my E430's in the middle.
Click to expand...

Just waiting on the new Helix dsp.3 to drop and then everything will go in. I’ll definitely post my opinions on them vs my Audiofrog GB & Hertz Milles


----------



## SPAZ

Haakono, Then I think you should really consider using the 8's over the 6'5, to get better mid bass. The 6WM's have pretty good midbass but I doubt they can compete with the 8wm's. In fact, when I trade in my car and get a new one(no lease this time) I will most likely go 3-way and if space allows me go from the 6WM to 8WM as well.


----------



## rob3980

Anyone actually hear these yet in a vehicle? If so thoughts? I pre ordered the dsp.3 and it releases May 6th so I’ll have my install done end of May but just curious if anyone has actually put these in yet ?


----------



## Asdcreation

Yes,they are really good,I upgraded from k2s although they are good and clear,utopia m are one step ahead they are great and crystal clear,k2s tweeter in some songs tend to get bit brighter as you go loud, the tbm tweeters are one of the best you can get+the 6wm bass notes is much better than k2, I have listen to k2 mostly 30 to 40% volume,here i am listening m to 50 to 60% volume because of the sweetness ,smoothness & enjoyment it provides , I am using 6wm ,3wm,tbm & the 10wm sub,amps are jl audio vxi


----------



## Asdcreation

I have recently testing it with audioquest Sydney aux (3.5mm to 3.5mm) from Samsung s9+,& they get even better some songs tunes detail was amazing ,I am gonna test with some more quality cables & Sony rsx gs9 in upcoming weeks so will provide my full review here


----------



## rob3980

Asdcreation said:


> I have recently testing it with audioquest Sydney aux (3.5mm to 3.5mm) from Samsung s9+,& they get even better some songs tunes detail was amazing ,I am gonna test with some more quality cables & Sony rsx gs9 in upcoming weeks so will provide my full review here


Awesome man. Thanks for the response. I’m itching to get this system installed. I have never hear Utopias before only a set of k2s


----------



## GregBamaPE

cht08 said:


> Tonynca...I wish you could hear the Utopia-m drivers in my truck. They are amazing. Man these things would sound good driven by a jensen or sparkomatic eq/booster:laugh: Seriously I will get some pics of my install posted later today, but if you look at the Mobile Toys Inc instagram page my truck is the red Raptor posted on Jan 25th. I already owned Focal kevlar components and hadn't really planned on buying the Utopias. Adam at Mobile toys made a bold challenge and guaranteed me that the Utopia-Ms were twice as good as the kevlars so I trusted him... Factually they are 3 times better. The JL amps were already in the truck so we kept them. When time and budget permits I will get new amps.


I want to know who would win out of Audiofrog GB15 GB60 or Focal 16W-XP?


----------



## tonynca

If anyone here is selling their old Utopia set lemme know. I need the 6w3be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## haakono

SPAZ said:


> Haakono, Then I think you should really consider using the 8's over the 6'5, to get better mid bass. The 6WM's have pretty good midbass but I doubt they can compete with the 8wm's. In fact, when I trade in my car and get a new one(no lease this time) I will most likely go 3-way and if space allows me go from the 6WM to 8WM as well.


Was planning to go for the 8's, but only the 6WM is available (for now) over here, so went for them in order to get the install going. Don't suspect I'll find them lacking tbh, but at least there's room for improvement down the road then 

Just got the tracking info on my TBM, 3.5WM, 6WM combo now today. Along with the invoice 

Will be run completely off a Helix P Six mk2.


----------



## rob3980

haakono said:


> SPAZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haakono, Then I think you should really consider using the 8's over the 6'5, to get better mid bass. The 6WM's have pretty good midbass but I doubt they can compete with the 8wm's. In fact, when I trade in my car and get a new one(no lease this time) I will most likely go 3-way and if space allows me go from the 6WM to 8WM as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was planning to go for the 8's, but only the 6WM is available (for now) over here, so went for them in order to get the install going. Don't suspect I'll find them lacking tbh, but at least there's room for improvement down the road then <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> Just got the tracking info on my TBM, 3.5WM, 6WM combo now today. Along with the invoice <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Razz" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> Will be run completely off a Helix P Six mk2.
Click to expand...

I have the 8s installed in my truck


----------



## matdotcom2000

I figured I would share my opinion on them... The tweeters are definitely worth it as well as the 8 inch Midbass... the midranges need to be broke in for a bit and they need some TLC for tuning but once dialed in are very detailed and transparent when paired with the Midbass and tweeter.. the mids can be crossover around 225 to 250 easy.... I think the big wins from this set are really the tweeter and the 8 inch Midbass, if I had to choose... BTW I tuned this thing just about from scratch at Aggieland and came in 1st in MECA and 9th in Money Round...


----------



## bertholomey

matdotcom2000 said:


> I figured I would share my opinion on them... The tweeters are definitely worth it as well as the 8 inch Midbass... the midranges need to be broke in for a bit and they need some TLC for tuning but once dialed in are very detailed and transparent when paired with the Midbass and tweeter.. the mids can be crossover around 225 to 250 easy.... I think the big wins from this set are really the tweeter and the 8 inch Midbass, if I had to choose... BTW I tuned this thing just about from scratch at Aggieland and came in 1st in MECA and 9th in Money Round...




Those look fantastic Matt - congrats on the success at Aggieland - I wish I had been there to hear it! Hopefully at Finals. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## bbfoto

rob3980 said:


> I have the 8s installed in my truck





matdotcom2000 said:


> I figured I would share my opinion on them... The tweeters are definitely worth it as well as the 8 inch Midbass... the midranges need to be broke in for a bit and they need some TLC for tuning but once dialed in are very detailed and transparent when paired with the Midbass and tweeter.. the mids can be crossover around 225 to 250 easy.... I think the big wins from this set are really the tweeter and the 8 inch Midbass, if I had to choose... BTW I tuned this thing just about from scratch at Aggieland and came in 1st in MECA and 9th in Money Round...



Rob and Matt, both of your installs look awesome. ?

I'm just now getting around to working on the front stage setup in my GF's Santa Fe using the 3.5WM mids. I finished the rear quarter-panel amp rack and subwoofer system in the rear cargo/hatch area a few weeks ago, but had to set the build aside for a bit to travel out of town for a shoot.

Sadly, I will not be using the 8WM or TBM tweeters in this install, but it's great to hear that the 3.5WM can reach down that low.  Should be a perfect matchup for the midbass drivers I'll be using in the kick-panels. 

*If you don't mind me asking, what amount of sealed Enclosure Volume did both of you end up with in your pods for the 3.5WM mids???*

Or are they open-back/venting free-air into the lower dash or lower A-pillar/kick-panel area?


From my quick mock-ups, I think that I can fit both the 3.5WM & small Aerospace 20 tweeters above them in the sail panels while mimicing the OEM sail panel's shape, but just bump them out to be flush with the face of the A-pillars (keeping them non-obstructive & stealthy).

I'm running a temporary 2-way component set in the interim with some old Alpine 6.5" SPX-Pro mids in the factory door locations (already well-deadened), and the SPX-Pro R-R tweeters in the OEM but slightly modified sail panels.

And with just the passive XOs plus the Kenwood DDX9905S' minimalist DSP & EQ, it already has a very impressive, focused, and high center image with a very evenly-spaced L-to-R deliniation of the sound stage (the 7 drum beats are nearly perfect!) and great midbass & tonality considering these old SPX-Pro drivers I had laying around.

I plan on extending a sealed enclosure for the 3.5WM's straight down below the sail panels between the door panel trim and the inner door skin. From my measurements, I know that I can get at least 1.5L sealed in the available space by molding to the contours with fiberglass.

1.5L is just about perfect for the two other 3.5" mids I've tested, but I haven't taken the time to measure the Focals' yet, so I'm curious about both of your midrange pod's enclosure volume?

Thanks!

Billy B.


----------



## Elektra

bbfoto said:


> Rob and Matt, both of your installs look awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just now getting around to working on the front stage setup in my GF's Santa Fe using the 3.5WM mids. I finished the rear quarter-panel amp rack and subwoofer system in the rear cargo/hatch area a few weeks ago, but had to set the build aside for a bit to travel out of town for a shoot.
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, I will not be using the 8WM or TBM tweeters in this install, but it's great to hear that the 3.5WM can reach down that low.  Should be a perfect matchup for the midbass drivers I'll be using in the kick-panels.
> 
> 
> 
> *If you don't mind me asking, what amount of sealed Enclosure Volume did both of you end up with in your pods for the 3.5WM mids???*
> 
> 
> 
> Or are they open-back/venting free-air into the lower dash or lower A-pillar/kick-panel area?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From my quick mock-ups, I think that I can fit both the 3.5WM & small Aerospace 20 tweeters above them in the sail panels while mimicing the OEM sail panel's shape, but just bump them out to be flush with the face of the A-pillars (keeping them non-obstructive & stealthy).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm running a temporary 2-way component set in the interim with some old Alpine 6.5" SPX-Pro mids in the factory door locations (already well-deadened), and the SPX-Pro R-R tweeters in the OEM but slightly modified sail panels.
> 
> 
> 
> And with just the passive XOs plus the Kenwood DDX9905S' minimalist DSP & EQ, it already has a very impressive, focused, and high center image with a very evenly-spaced L-to-R deliniation of the sound stage (the 7 drum beats are nearly perfect!) and great midbass & tonality considering these old SPX-Pro drivers I had laying around.
> 
> 
> 
> I plan on extending a sealed enclosure for the 3.5WM's straight down below the sail panels between the door panel trim and the inner door skin. From my measurements, I know that I can get at least 1.5L sealed in the available space by molding to the contours with fiberglass.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5L is just about perfect for the two other 3.5" mids I've tested, but I haven't taken the time to measure the Focals' yet, so I'm curious about both of your midrange pod's enclosure volume?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Billy B.




Yeah I would also like to know the volumes used... 


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## matdotcom2000

For me it really didn’t matter when I plotted them it seemed like they liked smaller enclosures, like 0.02 3ft...


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## bbfoto

matdotcom2000 said:


> For me it really didn’t matter when I plotted them it seemed like they liked smaller enclosures, like 0.02 3ft...


Thanks Matt. That would definitely make the install easier. I'll see what I come up with in my measurements as well, but it's good to have the reference to what your doing in real-world use. ?


----------



## haakono

Got my little box of goodies yesterday


----------



## haakono

Started to design some mounting rings to integrate into the a-pillars. Luckily I have access to a cnc-router locally, so will be making then in aluminum.


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## Asdcreation

Over 2 months now,enjoying every bit ,one of the sweetest tweeters with great detail & clarity 3.5wm for vocals & & amazing mid bass 6wm (if you think 6wm is not producing enough bass upfront ,you need quality cables to see it's true potential,) the 10wm sub is great sq too,matches with the mid bass frequencies ,making you feel the bass is upfront, to the point,no extra rattling/noise like some other subs which make u feel the bass is coming from back,Great system overall ,enjoying every ride with it


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## AyOne

Asdcreation said:


> ...amazing mid bass 6wm (if you think 6wm is not producing enough bass upfront ,you need quality cables to see it's true potential,)...


I am all for having really high quality cables but this statement is inaccurate.


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## bbfoto

cmusic said:


> That car at SIS belongs to a very close friend of mine. Bing and Joey have done an outstanding job on it. The Utopia Ms in it were the very first set sold in the USA. *When it is completed and returned to the owner, I get the honor of doing a master tune on it for IASCA and MECA competition.* From what Bing has said so far, the new M's sound much better than the previous generation Utopias, especially the tweeter. The 10" sub sounds and feels much larger than it is too.





cmusic said:


> Thanks! I'll be sure to post my thoughts on the M's. Bing is doing an initial "everyday" tune to the car before he ships it back to KY from CA. The owner plans on competing in MECA and IASCA this year, considering the joint finals is only about an hour and 15 minutes from his home. *Shortly after the owner gets the car back I will be taking a good long listen to it and do some more tuning to (hopefully) more what competition judges are listening for.*


Chuck, have you had a chance to get ears on this system and/or do any tuning with it yet?

Impressions?





matdotcom2000 said:


> (RE: 3.5WM mids) For me it really didn’t matter when I plotted them it seemed like they liked smaller enclosures, like 0.02 3ft...


Hey Matt, what about your kickpanel-mounted 8WM midbass drivers? What type of alignment and/or enclosure volume did you settle on?

THANKS!


----------



## Asdcreation

Yeah I should have been more specific, I have used various audioquest aux cables ,so I found out audioquest Sydney to be specific gives a boost to mid bass that's what I meant to say,its midrange & lows are unmatched,unless u want to go higher end which becomes quite expensive


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## AyOne

Asdcreation said:


> Yeah I should have been more specific, I have used various audioquest aux cables ,so I found out audioquest Sydney to be specific gives a boost to mid bass that's what I meant to say,its midrange & lows are unmatched,unless u want to go higher end which becomes quite expensive


I get it. 90% of my wiring is audioquest but if I didn’t get it dirt cheap it wouldn’t be. I know I hear a difference too, but I probably don’t lol. but enough about cables.

I really like Beryllium tweeters but I’ve never heard an inverted one these seem intriguing.


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## bbfoto

AyOne said:


> ...
> 
> I really like Beryllium tweeters but I’ve never heard an inverted one these seem intriguing.


For sure. I'd be most interested in seeing polar response measurements on the TBMs, as well as their HF extension.

But they definitely sound really, really good. A good bit better IMO compared to Focal's former versions, which IME were always a bit too forward and fatiguing for long listening sessions.

As I heard the equivalents of these TBMs in the newer Trio11BE studio monitors, they are much smoother while still retaining the really great micro details. I just wish they weren't quite so large, and also wish they didn't have to be beryllium. 

The price is a bit steep, tho', even for beryllium drivers! I guess they figure if Apple can get away with the crazy pricing on the new iPhones, they should have no issue selling these like hotcakes as well. :-/

But if you find the right dealer, you'll be able to snag these at a fairly significant discount from their MSRP


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## tonynca

bbfoto said:


> For sure. I'd be most interested in seeing polar response measurements on the TBMs, as well as their HF extension.
> 
> But they definitely sound really, really good. A good bit better IMO compared to Focal's former versions, which IME were always a bit too forward and fatiguing for long listening sessions.
> 
> As I heard the equivalents of these TBMs in the newer Trio11BE studio monitors, they are much smoother while still retaining the really great micro details. I just wish they weren't quite so large, and also wish they didn't have to be beryllium.
> 
> The price is a bit steep, tho', even for beryllium drivers! I guess they figure if Apple can get away with the crazy pricing on the new iPhones, they should have no issue selling these like hotcakes as well. :-/
> 
> But if you find the right dealer, you'll be able to snag these at a fairly significant discount from their MSRP


Why do you not like beryllium? Do you pet your tweeters? lol


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## bbfoto

tonynca said:


> Why do you not like beryllium? Do you pet your tweeters? lol


No, I like to sniff them.   

But seriously, I explained my reasons in a post a few pages back here. I used to have the Scanspeak beryllium tweeters in one of my vehicles. Amazing tweeters as well.


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## haakono

Just wondering, has anyone tried to model the midbass drivers (6WM, 8WM) in other enclosures than door mounting? 

In my car I have the opportunity to make small enclosures under the floorboard, as the car has a "false floor". From the factory there are almost 4" thick styrofoam block between the carpet and actual metal floor in the car. Could most likely make a 0.3-0.5 ft3 sealed (or ported for that matter) enclosure on each side, instead of door mounting. But not sure if the drivers are happy in smaller enclosures?


----------



## haakono

A bit off topic, but since the kit contains more or less the same tweeters as the Utopia TBM, it's kinda topical as well.. 

Got a sweet delivery today, the Focal F40th anniversary kit, number 144/500


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## Asdcreation

It's not quite utopia tbm more like utopia be but who cares as long as its beryllium ?,enjoy!


----------



## Doc69

Ok so I have read through this entire thread and it seems like the new Focal M line is pretty damn good. So here is my dilemma. I have an old set of Focal 165 K2 KRX2's and a set of Focal 165 K2 KRX3's that was ran in a passive configuration on a Zapco 150.6 Amp in a 2004 Dodge Ram 1500. I now have a 2018 Dodge Ram 1500 and basically want to put the same system in my new truck as my old one. But the speakers are aging and now I'm really interested in the new Focal M series speakers. I do not want to replace my factory stereo as all the new stereos nowadays are integrated into everything from the AC to everything else. So I just purchased a STEG SDSP 68 to improve the sound of the factory stereo. While I was talking with this guy (that sold me the STEG DSP) he was asking if I was wanting to do an Active or a Passive system and he said that an Active setup sounds amazing once tuned correctly. Well I don't think I could even do an Active setup really with my current speakers but these New M series it looks promising. So the question would be, would it be worth it to spend another $4k to upgrade from my older KRX2's and KRX3's? And going from Passive to Active?

Truthfully I was probably going to upgrade to whatever replaced the KRX2's and KRX3's anyways.

In addition to this I have already got a ported sub box that was built by Bobby Gately that will house 4 6.5" B2 Audio HNX65's that will go under my rear seat. This will be powered by my Zapco 2KD sub amp.

Mr. Gately said he would build my pillars and door panels as well. Now I just need to figure out what speakers I will be using for this install.

Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated...Thanks 

Ohhh and I primarily listen to House, Techno, and EDM music. So I do like the tweeters a little on the brighter side. A buddy of mine had a set of the high end Morel speakers and I did not really care for the warmness of them while playing this style music. I haven't heard any of the Focal M tweeters so not sure if they are closer to the sound of the Morel or the Focal K2 powers.


----------



## Elektra

Doc69 said:


> Ok so I have read through this entire thread and it seems like the new Focal M line is pretty damn good. So here is my dilemma. I have an old set of Focal 165 K2 KRX2's and a set of Focal 165 K2 KRX3's that was ran in a passive configuration on a Zapco 150.6 Amp in a 2004 Dodge Ram 1500. I now have a 2018 Dodge Ram 1500 and basically want to put the same system in my new truck as my old one. But the speakers are aging and now I'm really interested in the new Focal M series speakers. I do not want to replace my factory stereo as all the new stereos nowadays are integrated into everything from the AC to everything else. So I just purchased a STEG SDSP 68 to improve the sound of the factory stereo. While I was talking with this guy (that sold me the STEG DSP) he was asking if I was wanting to do an Active or a Passive system and he said that an Active setup sounds amazing once tuned correctly. Well I don't think I could even do an Active setup really with my current speakers but these New M series it looks promising. So the question would be, would it be worth it to spend another $4k to upgrade from my older KRX2's and KRX3's? And going from Passive to Active?
> 
> 
> 
> Truthfully I was probably going to upgrade to whatever replaced the KRX2's and KRX3's anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to this I have already got a ported sub box that was built by Bobby Gately that will house 4 6.5" B2 Audio HNX65's that will go under my rear seat. This will be powered by my Zapco 2KD sub amp.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Gately said he would build my pillars and door panels as well. Now I just need to figure out what speakers I will be using for this install.
> 
> 
> 
> Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated...Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh and I primarily listen to House, Techno, and EDM music. So I do like the tweeters a little on the brighter side. A buddy of mine had a set of the high end Morel speakers and I did not really care for the warmness of them while playing this style music. I haven't heard any of the Focal M tweeters so not sure if they are closer to the sound of the Morel or the Focal K2 powers.




With that type of music I would stick to KRX as it appears you may like the music loud?

The M’s are all about finesse and detail - I don’t think you will appreciate your music type better on a $4k speaker setup... imho 

I could be wrong....


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## jackk

Elektra said:


> With that type of music I would stick to KRX as it appears you may like the music loud?
> 
> The M’s are all about finesse and detail - I don’t think you will appreciate your music type better on a $4k speaker setup... imho
> 
> I could be wrong....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Actually you are quite right Elektra. Ever since I had the kit 7 installed I found myself increasingly listen to Jazz, classical, instrumental “WELL recorded” type of music (I describe as MORE quiet music or music w/ loud and less loud), slowly moving away fr EDM/Techno unless it is WELL done (mainly well recorded). 

Latest well created and recorded techno album I found is: Broken Britain by Nanoplex

W/ the Kit 7 and better and better tune (which took time to slowly dial in), the setup exposes how bad a lot of EDM is done out there.

I found listening to the more “quiet” type of music would showcase the ability of the kit 7 better, such as extension on instruments.

OP I would suggest going active w/ your existing speakers before spending more $, unless u don’t care about being able to tell what the difference is fr the changes you wanna make, so want to do it all in 1 shot to save $, time & effort. 

Cheers!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tonynca

jackk said:


> Actually you are quite right Elektra. Ever since I had the kit 7 installed I found myself increasingly listen to Jazz, classical, instrumental “WELL recorded” type of music (I describe as MORE quiet music or music w/ loud and less loud), slowly moving away fr EDM/Techno unless it is WELL done (mainly well recorded).
> 
> Latest well created and recorded techno album I found is: Broken Britain by Nanoplex
> 
> W/ the Kit 7 and better and better tune (which took time to slowly dial in), the setup exposes how bad a lot of EDM is done out there.
> 
> I found listening to the more “quiet” type of music would showcase the ability of the kit 7 better, such as extension on instruments.
> 
> OP I would suggest going active w/ your existing speakers before spending more $, unless u don’t care about being able to tell what the difference is fr the changes you wanna make, so want to do it all in 1 shot to save $, time & effort.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




You just need a tune that takes out a lot of highs 2-6khz and add gradually add 100-400hz for EDM.


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## Asdcreation

I had k2 before ,if you not into all details & stuff,k2 are pretty good,only thing I found was k2 tweeters tend to get brighter @ higher volumes,I recently got a chance to listen to k2 on another vehicle after 3 months with my utopia m,same songs & straight away I notice the missing details & lack of upfront bass,tbm are very good as beryllium, great detail level & sweeter sounding,& 6wm midbass have much more punch in them than k2 midbass,but yeah once u get utopia m & proper tuning ,your ears gonna get addicted to great tunes,there's not going back so act wisely?


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## SPAZ

I listen to EDM 90% of the time and I absolutely love the Utopia M's for this type of music. Getting the realistic sound, detail with no harshness is what makes this set amazing.


----------



## jackk

tonynca said:


> You just need a tune that takes out a lot of highs 2-6khz and add gradually add 100-400hz for EDM.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Hey good advice right there. 

It explains why I like how EDM sounds w/ the kit 7 when I did a 4 seats tunes, by setting the listening position to the Center of the car so no TA applied to any speakers, then simply keeping the EQ pretty much flat, only cut the few peaks in 2-6k zone. 

Cheers!


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## ckirocz28

SPAZ said:


> I listen to EDM 90% of the time and I absolutely love the Utopia M's for this type of music. Getting the realistic sound, detail with no harshness is what makes this set amazing.


I'm sort of trolling here, but "realistic sound" for EDM? ELECTRONIC Dance Music is electronic, there are no real instruments to reproduce. Music made with real physical instruments makes for a much better test of a speaker's ability. Nothing wrong with EDM otherwise.


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## ckirocz28

I see someone already mentioned that, my bad.


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## tonynca

ckirocz28 said:


> I'm sort of trolling here, but "realistic sound" for EDM? ELECTRONIC Dance Music is electronic, there are no real instruments to reproduce. Music made with real physical instruments makes for a much better test of a speaker's ability. Nothing wrong with EDM otherwise.




EDM uses reverb to place sounds and synths. Sometimes these synthetic sounds comes alive and move around on the stage and does have a great sense of realism as it becomes halographic. I'm guessing that's what he's hearing. Also vocalist for EDM are all very real people not some AI robot singers. Haha.


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## haakono

ckirocz28 said:


> I'm sort of trolling here, but "realistic sound" for EDM? ELECTRONIC Dance Music is electronic, there are no real instruments to reproduce. Music made with real physical instruments makes for a much better test of a speaker's ability. Nothing wrong with EDM otherwise.


Sure sure, but it's still mixed in a studio to sound a certain way, and you can still also strive to reproduce the sound and ambience from going to see EDM artists live..

Not unlikely that many EDM albums are mixed in studios with Focal studio monitors with very similar drivers and sound character as the Utopias. The beryllium tweeter from the F40th anniversary kit is pretty much taken straight from the Trio 11 be studio monitor


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## tonynca

haakono said:


> Sure sure, but it's still mixed in a studio to sound a certain way, and you can still also strive to reproduce the sound and ambience from going to see EDM artists live..
> 
> Not unlikely that many EDM albums are mixed in studios with Focal studio monitors with very similar drivers and sound character as the Utopias. The beryllium tweeter from the F40th anniversary kit is pretty much taken straight from the Trio 11 be studio monitor


Yup.

MANY of the top artists do mix on Focal: https://equipboard.com/items/focal-sm9-active-studio-monitor


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## tonynca

Someone with a 3.5WM... Could you measure the outside diameter of the speaker? I know the cutout hole is 79mm but is the outer diameter 88mm? Focal's spec sheet says 88mm but it looks like they measured from the screw hole.


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## carlosg_313

tonynca said:


> Someone with a 3.5WM... Could you measure the outside diameter of the speaker? I know the cutout hole is 79mm but is the outer diameter 88mm? Focal's spec sheet says 88mm but it looks like they measured from the screw hole.


3.75 overall diameter.

I flushed mounted my 3.5 with an extra 1/16 for material difference, which I used suede on my pillars


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## tonynca

Rob or anyone who used the grill - How do they mount on? I can't believe Focal doesn't disclose this info.


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## haakono

Outside diameter is 96mm, I think the speaker grilles mount just like any regular grille, bottom part goes under driver, and metal mesh part is press fit into the bottom part? 

I chose not to get the grilles, I don't think they look good at all unfortunately.. Especially when the Utopia drivers look as good as they do.


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## tonynca

Found this. 95-96mm is right. 


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## haakono

Must get myself a new ruler, or better eyesight  95 is probably the correct answer yes. 

Took some pics of the differences between the beryllium drivers from the F40th set and the Utopia M's. Have yet to hear any of them, so looking forward to having some time to begin installing. But the F40th set is up for sale, so probably won't install it...


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## tonynca

Lol how do you have that laying around. Install it!


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## haakono

One thing at a time, have to finish the exterior work first


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## tonynca

Joining the club. I came from a Frankenstein setup consisting of scans r3004, Utopia 3w2be and hybrid L6SE. Not a bad setup by any means. It sounded great but the Utopia M is in a different league.









I was too excited so I ghetto rigged the tweeters on. Will be changing to black gloss acrylic baffles for the mids later. 

















It got late when I finished the install and tune so I couldn't crank up the music too loud. First impression are that the tweeters are supreme. They're so crisp and very detailed. It made such a big difference coming from Scanspeak R3004. I was listening to songs on Tidal and all the highs were just coming alive. I could only describe it as being more realistic when listening to a vocalist. It's addictive.

The mids are pretty good as well. Focal got rid of the 1-3khz resonance they had with the 3w2be. The mids aren't as flat as the 3w2be but I think its natural roll-off was what I ended up doing in my tune anyways. 

I need to get tweeter pods made ASAP. Probably start on it tomorrow. So tired after listening to music and tuning for 4 hrs straight. Low-medium volume of course. 

Oh and I got unlucky with the mids' cosmetics. I guess this is what may happen when they sell mids as singles. 








How did their spray pattern machine or human screw this up? I don't think Focal shouldve put this on the approved QC list. You could clearly tell the speckle pattern is super light on the top one. I'll contact my guy to see what he could do..

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## haakono

From seeing the factory tour video, it looks like the paint finish/pattern is judged by human eye up to a reference cone. So if you have two cones, where each is at their different ends of the spectrum of tolerances (light and heavy) compared to the reference, when you put them together the differences show up more severely. I guess that is the potential drawback when the drivers aren't paired at the factory. Much easier to pair up matching finishes then. 

https://youtu.be/184crGkXsKM?t=212


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## tonynca

Yeah I saw that tour. My sales guy said he'll try to get me one that matches soon while he said just throw in the speaker so I could have music in the mean time. Great support!


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## haakono

Nice


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## drop1

Are the tweeters in the w xp kit the same as M's that are sold separately?


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## haakono

No, they are different tweeters. 

Looks the same, but different specs (sensitivity, fs, frequency curve etc)


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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> Joining the club. I came from a Frankenstein setup consisting of scans r3004, Utopia 3w2be and hybrid L6SE. Not a bad setup by any means. It sounded great but the Utopia M is in a different league.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was too excited so I ghetto rigged the tweeters on. Will be changing to black gloss acrylic baffles for the mids later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It got late when I finished the install and tune so I couldn't crank up the music too loud. First impression are that the tweeters are supreme. They're so crisp and very detailed. It made such a big difference coming from Scanspeak R3004. I was listening to songs on Tidal and all the highs were just coming alive. I could only describe it as being more realistic when listening to a vocalist. It's addictive.
> 
> 
> 
> The mids are pretty good as well. Focal got rid of the 1-3khz resonance they had with the 3w2be. The mids aren't as flat as the 3w2be but I think its natural roll-off was what I ended up doing in my tune anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> I need to get tweeter pods made ASAP. Probably start on it tomorrow. So tired after listening to music and tuning for 4 hrs straight. Low-medium volume of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and I got unlucky with the mids' cosmetics. I guess this is what may happen when they sell mids as singles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How did their spray pattern machine or human screw this up? I don't think Focal shouldve put this on the approved QC list. You could clearly tell the speckle pattern is super light on the top one. I'll contact my guy to see what he could do..
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




How did you like the midbass drivers? Still contemplating the 6” vs 8”


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> How did you like the midbass drivers? Still contemplating the 6” vs 8”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I need to get my tune right before I could make that judgement. I think the drivers being shadow threw of my time alignment. The tweeters are also not at the same spot I had the scans. I got the tune to 80% but I could tell it's more distinct than the L6SE. The mid bass is clear and doesn't sound sloppy.

For my car, there's plenty of mid bass with the 6WM. I'm sure the 8" will put it more impact though. I wish I could fit 8" to get more 80-90hz. 

Will try to reset and try to tune again.


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## Bari87

Hi Guys,

i've read interested the whole thread about the new Focal Utopia M Series. 
I'm running at the Moment:

Hertz 1650.3 door mount
Scan Speak 10F FreeAir Dashbord mount
Audison TH 1.5 II Violino
Focal EC165K (Rear Doors)

I was wondering if the Utopia 3.5WM would do a better job then the Scan Speak 10F drivers since they would fit in my mounting rings on the dashboard. Just concerned about the high moving mass from the Focal (4gr) in comparison to the ScanSpeak for a Free Air. Anyone experience with that?

Thanks for any opinion!
Bari


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## tonynca

The Focals are in a different league. They're one of the best sounding mids I've heard. Very detailed. I don't see why you can't use them in free air. The cone mass is not what determines whether or not they could play in free air. It has a QTS of 0.58 which should work fine in free air. 


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## Bari87

Thanks for your opinion, looks like i should give them a try 

What HighPass are you giving to them? Can they produce also a decent level of sound pressure / volume? I have a 12" CZ Audio Woofer in the trunk, so the loudspeakers should be able to deal with it and make some noise


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## Bari87

Would be also interested on the 6WM for the doors. Anybody a comparison on sound pressure between 50-200Hz with the Utopia driver and other drivers? Like DLS Scandinavia or ScanSpeak 16W Gold Series etc?


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## tonynca

Bari87 said:


> Thanks for your opinion, looks like i should give them a try
> 
> 
> 
> What HighPass are you giving to them? Can they produce also a decent level of sound pressure / volume? I have a 12" CZ Audio Woofer in the trunk, so the loudspeakers should be able to deal with it and make some noise



You could cross them over at 250hz 24db slopes no problem. 


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## tonynca

Bari87 said:


> Thanks for your opinion, looks like i should give them a try
> 
> 
> 
> What HighPass are you giving to them? Can they produce also a decent level of sound pressure / volume? I have a 12" CZ Audio Woofer in the trunk, so the loudspeakers should be able to deal with it and make some noise



You could cross them over at 250hz 24db slopes no problem. 


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## Bari87

Hm i am crossing the 10F on 220Hz/12db and they making the volume i need for the rest of the system. Tweeters on 2200Hz/12db.

So they cant play loud / louder then the 10F?


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## tonynca

You could probably try 250hz @12db but I would try and listen for distortion at high volume. You're pretty close to the range where your midbass should be playing instead of the focal. Why do you want to cross so low? It's hard to answer your question without fully knowing your setup. 

Maybe you should post another thread so you don't derail this thread. 


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## Bari87

Just wanted to know if the 3.5WM oder 6WM would perfom (sound pressure / volume) better then the existing loudspeakers.

Its always hard to imagine how new speakers would be like if everybody just says 'they are sounding good' or 'they perform well' without a comparison to other / existing drivers.

So can anybody make a comparison from the new Focal Utopia M to existing Loudspeaker Lines? Sound Pressure and max. Volume for example? Sound quality shouldn't need a question for that price, it must be good and the rest is the work from the DSP/Settings. But many SQ-"Loud"-Speakers cant make it loud


----------



## Nineteen69Mach1

Has anyone ran the M's in a 2 ways set up? Wounder how they would compare to the new Utopia 165W-XP's at about half the price.


----------



## drop1

I have a question about the utopia 6 inch. 

Can it play up to 2500hz off axis? My gb's on the door side drop off pretty hard around 1khz. 
I want to stay with the stock locations so I'm looking for drivers that can play higher. I dont want to go active due to space limitations amd I really dont want to add a dedicated mid. 
I just want a midbass driver that can maintain up to the 2500hz crossover point. I dont care if I lose some bottom. I cross at 85 hz anyway.


----------



## haakono

Had some mounting rings for tweeter and mid made on a cnc-router yesterday. Will use these to experiment with placement, and then have metal ones made for the final installation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdRy-UfVmY


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## tonynca

drop1 said:


> I have a question about the utopia 6 inch.
> 
> Can it play up to 2500hz off axis? My gb's on the door side drop off pretty hard around 1khz.
> I want to stay with the stock locations so I'm looking for drivers that can play higher. I dont want to go active due to space limitations amd I really dont want to add a dedicated mid.
> I just want a midbass driver that can maintain up to the 2500hz crossover point. I dont care if I lose some bottom. I cross at 85 hz anyway.




I'll try to do some measurements for you when I get a chance.


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## tonynca

haakono said:


> Had some mounting rings for tweeter and mid made on a cnc-router yesterday. Will use these to experiment with placement, and then have metal ones made for the final installation.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdRy-UfVmY




That's such a nice fit. How does the tweeter ring fit? Do you mind sharing the cnc file? May end up using it for tweeter pod build. 


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## drop1

tonynca said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question about the utopia 6 inch.
> 
> Can it play up to 2500hz off axis? My gb's on the door side drop off pretty hard around 1khz.
> I want to stay with the stock locations so I'm looking for drivers that can play higher. I dont want to go active due to space limitations amd I really dont want to add a dedicated mid.
> I just want a midbass driver that can maintain up to the 2500hz crossover point. I dont care if I lose some bottom. I cross at 85 hz anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try to do some measurements for you when I get a chance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It would be so appreciated. If I could get a measurement of the drivers side soloed with not low pass applied it would make my day. Are you the one with the Raptor? I'm in a 2016 crew fx4


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## tonynca

drop1 said:


> It would be so appreciated. If I could get a measurement of the drivers side soloed with not low pass applied it would make my day. Are you the one with the Raptor? I'm in a 2016 crew fx4


nope i'm not

ill full pass and measure for you. i'm in a sedan with door mounted 6wm.


----------



## drop1

tonynca said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be so appreciated. If I could get a measurement of the drivers side soloed with not low pass applied it would make my day. Are you the one with the Raptor? I'm in a 2016 crew fx4
> 
> 
> 
> nope i'm not
> 
> ill full pass and measure for you. i'm in a sedan with door mounted 6wm.
Click to expand...

Just as Good. Thank you!


----------



## haakono

tonynca said:


> That's such a nice fit. How does the tweeter ring fit? Do you mind sharing the cnc file? May end up using it for tweeter pod build.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The fit is very tight, push-fit really. So for the final ones I might do it like on these pics, add a small space in order to trim material to fit in between.

These ones were made by Brians Custom Audio. Really like the door spacers. My CNC guy says that one of his routers is the same as used here  

https://www.facebook.com/BriansCustomAudio/photos/a.385692368162359/2529332213798353/?type=3

We made mine on the larger cnc in his shop.


----------



## tonynca

Damn that's precision

Is that aluminum? Anodize it black

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## haakono

Not my work these, but this very skilled professional installer  

https://youtu.be/ONC62u_azhg


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## drop1

tonynca said:


> Damn that's precision
> 
> Is that aluminum? Anodize it black
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know from having ar15 parts anodized that if it's a tight fit it likely won't fit after anodizing. The anodizing very slightly changes the dimensions.


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## tonynca

drop1 said:


> I know from having ar15 parts anodized that if it's a tight fit it likely won't fit after anodizing. The anodizing very slightly changes the dimensions.


Mask off the outter rim and it should be fine.


----------



## tonynca

drop1 said:


> I have a question about the utopia 6 inch.
> 
> Can it play up to 2500hz off axis? My gb's on the door side drop off pretty hard around 1khz.
> I want to stay with the stock locations so I'm looking for drivers that can play higher. I dont want to go active due to space limitations amd I really dont want to add a dedicated mid.
> I just want a midbass driver that can maintain up to the 2500hz crossover point. I dont care if I lose some bottom. I cross at 85 hz anyway.




Green is mic next to the speaker.
Red is left speaker measured from the headrest area.
Blue is left speaker measured form the headrest area. 


Their measurement in free-air shows that they could play up to ~3khz. I guess it really has to do with what kind of doors you put them in and its interaction with your interior. The green measurement actually kind of matches their free-air measurement minus roll-off dip starting 1600hz.

Which means... you really don't know until you try it. But this is kind of a gist of it.


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## tonynca

Haha I know this is stupid as hell to post but.... but I always appreciated listening to someone recording the sound of their system. I know it's not a real representation but still fun regardless. 

I, myself would look up youtube videos of Hybrid Audio SE, Hertz Mille Legend, Audison Thesis, etc.

So here's how the car is sounding right now: https://www.dropbox.com/s/owy4vju3opuhpwo/Focal Utopia M - Lonely teardrops.MOV?dl=0
(Downloading the video plays at higher quality)

Song: Don Rich - Lonely Teardrops
iPhone Xr was used to record. Should be stereo recording.

Note to self: Hurry and finish up the tweeter testing and fiberglass that **** up...


----------



## drop1

tonynca said:


> Haha I know this is stupid as hell to post but.... but I always appreciated listening to someone recording the sound of their system. I know it's not a real representation but still fun regardless.
> 
> I, myself would look up youtube videos of Hybrid Audio SE, Hertz Mille Legend, Audison Thesis, etc.
> 
> So here's how the car is sounding right now: https://www.dropbox.com/s/owy4vju3opuhpwo/Focal Utopia M - Lonely teardrops.MOV?dl=0
> (Downloading the video plays at higher quality)
> 
> Song: Don Rich - Lonely Teardrops
> iPhone Xr was used to record. Should be stereo recording.
> 
> Note to self: Hurry and finish up the tweeter testing and fiberglass that **** up...


That makes me miss my beryllium tweeters. Theres just something magical abou them.


----------



## tonynca

drop1 said:


> That makes me miss my beryllium tweeters. Theres just something magical abou them.


Yeah, they have the brightness and detail of an alloy tweeter with the smoothness of a silk dome. That's what my ears tell me, but I guess I'm kind of bias. haha.


----------



## drop1

tonynca said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That makes me miss my beryllium tweeters. Theres just something magical abou them.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, they have the brightness and detail of an alloy tweeter with the smoothness of a silk dome. That's what my ears tell me, but I guess I'm kind of bias. haha.
Click to expand...

I had the last utopias. I love that bright, ultra detailed sound.


----------



## haakono

It sounded just like my $30 Logitech speakers in my office  But so did the live recording of the Grande Utopia Evo III speakers at the Focal Factory...

This is the drawback on listening to youtube live recordings played back on my office computer... everythings sounds like $30 Logitech speakers  

I got hold of a spare set of a-pillar trims for my car, so have started cutting them apart tp make room for the TBM and 3,5WM speakers. Sealed chamber or openair for the mids? Has anyone tried both for a comparison?


----------



## dcfis

drop1 said:


> I had the last utopias. I love that bright, ultra detailed sound.


Well don't know if frogs are for you. Sell me your gb60 I'll give you my stevens and pick up that satori beryllium. You will be set


----------



## drop1

dcfis said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had the last utopias. I love that bright, ultra detailed sound.
> 
> 
> 
> Well don't know if frogs are for you. Sell me your gb60 I'll give you my stevens and pick up that satori beryllium. You will be set
Click to expand...

I'm married to the frogs for the moment. Just picked up some gb15s and pods. Installed them last night. 
About to pick up a mini with dirac. Not planning on changing anything until I process the whole system with dirac. Them I'll see where I stand.


----------



## tonynca

haakono said:


> It sounded just like my $30 Logitech speakers in my office  But so did the live recording of the Grande Utopia Evo III speakers at the Focal Factory...
> 
> 
> 
> This is the drawback on listening to youtube live recordings played back on my office computer... everythings sounds like $30 Logitech speakers
> 
> 
> 
> I got hold of a spare set of a-pillar trims for my car, so have started cutting them apart tp make room for the TBM and 3,5WM speakers. Sealed chamber or openair for the mids? Has anyone tried both for a comparison?







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## haakono

Got my setup complete to go now (2 subs missing from the pic, they were in the next room  )


----------



## tonynca

Gear porn


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## JimmyDee

It's amazing how long I can sit and stare at a picture of speakers and amp/DSP boxes...

Fantastic stuff! Total gear porn!


----------



## haakono

If this doesn't turn out well I only have myself to blame! 

Did you have any luck sourcing TBM tweeters JimmyDee?


----------



## JimmyDee

haakono said:


> If this doesn't turn out well I only have myself to blame!
> 
> Did you have any luck sourcing TBM tweeters JimmyDee?


I have a source for a new set. Price is fair, but still wildly expensive.
I'm in no rush to move ahead with this. Probably early next year.


----------



## haakono

They do dig a hole in the wallet.. But if they can put a stop for my needs to upgrade for the next 5+ years I can (sort of) justify it... I keep telling myself


----------



## dgage

haakono said:


> They do dig a hole in the wallet.. But if they can put a stop for my needs to upgrade for the next 5+ years I can (sort of) justify it... I keep telling myself


Your wallet after paying for all of that beautiful gear.  I hope you come back here and let us know how it sounds after you’ve had it installed.


----------



## Elektra

Installed my mids and tweeters - from the Kit 7 to the M’s - first thing I noticed is that the new speakers are calmer not as aggressive as the older ones... 

I used my old kit 7 pods and modified them to fit the new speakers and I must say they sound really good... still setup for the kit 7’s so I need to redo the tuning and it’s almost good enough with a different tune...

Gonna spend some time this weekend and see how the new ones measure and re do the EQ etc... but so far the hype is real and the M’s are the business - if you liked the older range the new range will impress you and the additional cash you just spend on them will seem worth it...

Some tracks I found a little aggressive on the Kit 7’s are now listenable which saying a lot as I really liked the older range...

Let’s see after I redo the tuning... but so far they sound great! The sub has been in the car now for a few weeks and I am really impressed with it - I found the the Focal to be a improvement over the Dynaudio Esotar - it’s just a magnificent sounding driver - 40lts sealed is my enclosure off a Brax MX4 - 1/3rd gains off Helix Pro2...


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----------



## tonynca

Elektra said:


> Installed my mids and tweeters - from the Kit 7 to the M’s - first thing I noticed is that the new speakers are calmer not as aggressive as the older ones...
> 
> I used my old kit 7 pods and modified them to fit the new speakers and I must say they sound really good... still setup for the kit 7’s so I need to redo the tuning and it’s almost good enough with a different tune...
> 
> Gonna spend some time this weekend and see how the new ones measure and re do the EQ etc... but so far the hype is real and the M’s are the business - if you liked the older range the new range will impress you and the additional cash you just spend on them will seem worth it...
> 
> Some tracks I found a little aggressive on the Kit 7’s are now listenable which saying a lot as I really liked the older range...
> 
> Let’s see after I redo the tuning... but so far they sound great! The sub has been in the car now for a few weeks and I am really impressed with it - I found the the Focal to be a improvement over the Dynaudio Esotar - it’s just a magnificent sounding driver - 40lts sealed is my enclosure off a Brax MX4 - 1/3rd gains off Helix Pro2...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I came from the old mids and I agree with your observation. The old mids were a bit harsh at 1-3khz. The new TMD surround in combination with the M cone is probably responsible for reducing a lot of the cone breakup distortion at higher freqs on the mids. They do sound a lot tamer without losing detail. 

Some folks would say that if it's harsh just cut it down. Well you would then lose detail. What I noticed about great speakers is that they could be bright and detailed without being harsh. Same goes for the tweeter. They're bright and detailed but they don't ring the ears.


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----------



## drop1

tonynca said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Installed my mids and tweeters - from the Kit 7 to the M’s - first thing I noticed is that the new speakers are calmer not as aggressive as the older ones...
> 
> I used my old kit 7 pods and modified them to fit the new speakers and I must say they sound really good... still setup for the kit 7’s so I need to redo the tuning and it’s almost good enough with a different tune...
> 
> Gonna spend some time this weekend and see how the new ones measure and re do the EQ etc... but so far the hype is real and the M’s are the business - if you liked the older range the new range will impress you and the additional cash you just spend on them will seem worth it...
> 
> Some tracks I found a little aggressive on the Kit 7’s are now listenable which saying a lot as I really liked the older range...
> 
> Let’s see after I redo the tuning... but so far they sound great! The sub has been in the car now for a few weeks and I am really impressed with it - I found the the Focal to be a improvement over the Dynaudio Esotar - it’s just a magnificent sounding driver - 40lts sealed is my enclosure off a Brax MX4 - 1/3rd gains off Helix Pro2...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I came from the old mids and I agree with your observation. The old mids were a bit harsh at 1-3khz. The new TMD surround in combination with the M cone is probably responsible for reducing a lot of the cone breakup distortion at higher freqs on the mids. They do sound a lot tamer without losing detail.
> 
> Some folks would say that if it's harsh just cut it down. Well you would then lose detail. What I noticed about great speakers is that they could be bright and detailed without being harsh. Same goes for the tweeter. They're bright and detailed but they don't ring the ears.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

That's what I loved about my old utopias. They could be tuned much brighter than other speakers of the time but stay pretty smooth.

That and the detail in the midbass region. You could juice the midbass and it would still sound open.

I found with the utopias that you hand a lot more tuning possiblites. You could use vastly different curves and they would all sound good. 

I miss them very much. I went with Audiofrog on a whim after my old truck went underwater in a flood and they have been very good speaker but I domt find them to be "great" speakers. That is 100 percent my opinion. The Utopias just sound better to me.


----------



## jackk

Elektra said:


> Installed my mids and tweeters - from the Kit 7 to the M’s - first thing I noticed is that the new speakers are calmer not as aggressive as the older ones...
> 
> I used my old kit 7 pods and modified them to fit the new speakers and I must say they sound really good... still setup for the kit 7’s so I need to redo the tuning and it’s almost good enough with a different tune...
> 
> Gonna spend some time this weekend and see how the new ones measure and re do the EQ etc... but so far the hype is real and the M’s are the business - if you liked the older range the new range will impress you and the additional cash you just spend on them will seem worth it...
> 
> Some tracks I found a little aggressive on the Kit 7’s are now listenable which saying a lot as I really liked the older range...
> 
> Let’s see after I redo the tuning... but so far they sound great! The sub has been in the car now for a few weeks and I am really impressed with it - I found the the Focal to be a improvement over the Dynaudio Esotar - it’s just a magnificent sounding driver - 40lts sealed is my enclosure off a Brax MX4 - 1/3rd gains off Helix Pro2...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Do you still use the crossblock fr the kit 7 for it? I presume you are going active w/ the new M mid range right?

Resisting here since I just had your kit 7 installed last year Nov... would b interesting if I could just swap out the mids fr your kit 7 to put in the new M mids w/ the crossblock in place?!

Make sure you let me know when u decided to change mid range again  you know what I’m thinking 

Cheers!


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----------



## jackk

tonynca said:


> I came from the old mids and I agree with your observation. The old mids were a bit harsh at 1-3khz. The new TMD surround in combination with the M cone is probably responsible for reducing a lot of the cone breakup distortion at higher freqs on the mids. They do sound a lot tamer without losing detail.
> 
> Some folks would say that if it's harsh just cut it down. Well you would then lose detail. What I noticed about great speakers is that they could be bright and detailed without being harsh. Same goes for the tweeter. They're bright and detailed but they don't ring the ears.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




You guys are soooo bad... temptation! Resisting.... 

Cheers!


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----------



## Bari87

Just placed the order for a pair of 3.5WM to replace my ScanSpeak 10F after vacations.

Has anybody a comparison of sound pressure/volume and what HighPass for the 6WM? I'm runinng ML1650.3 and can cross them at 60/12db.

Thanx!


----------



## Elektra

tonynca said:


> I came from the old mids and I agree with your observation. The old mids were a bit harsh at 1-3khz. The new TMD surround in combination with the M cone is probably responsible for reducing a lot of the cone breakup distortion at higher freqs on the mids. They do sound a lot tamer without losing detail.
> 
> Some folks would say that if it's harsh just cut it down. Well you would then lose detail. What I noticed about great speakers is that they could be bright and detailed without being harsh. Same goes for the tweeter. They're bright and detailed but they don't ring the ears.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yeah I installed both the mids and tweeters so I don’t know which driver is responsible for the calmness - but in general the frequency response is more tame throughout the range - my speakers are actually EQd for the kit 7 mids and tweeters so I need to redo the settings so I suspect my result will be even better than what it is now... also the mids and tweeters need about 20 hours of run in as I have already noticed that they sound different to when I just installed them...


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## Elektra

jackk said:


> You guys are soooo bad... temptation! Resisting....
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Resistance is futile... just do it... I loved my Kit 7’s though...


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## Elektra

jackk said:


> Do you still use the crossblock fr the kit 7 for it? I presume you are going active w/ the new M mid range right?
> 
> Resisting here since I just had your kit 7 installed last year Nov... would b interesting if I could just swap out the mids fr your kit 7 to put in the new M mids w/ the crossblock in place?!
> 
> Make sure you let me know when u decided to change mid range again  you know what I’m thinking
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The new range has different impedances the new tweeter is now a 4ohm compared to the 6ohm of the older tweeter - you can try the new drivers with the crossblock since it has quite a lot of attenuation to level things out I suppose and just EQ the rest...


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## jackk

Elektra said:


> The new range has different impedances the new tweeter is now a 4ohm compared to the 6ohm of the older tweeter - you can try the new drivers with the crossblock since it has quite a lot of attenuation to level things out I suppose and just EQ the rest...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Ahh got you. In such case no point to run the crossblock. I’ll continue to enjoy your kit 7 for now. I have not even installed the MX4 yet.... sitting on the bedroom floor 

Thx for the info. Let me not pollute this thread. 

Cheers!


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## Elektra

jackk said:


> Ahh got you. In such case no point to run the crossblock. I’ll continue to enjoy your kit 7 for now. I have not even installed the MX4 yet.... sitting on the bedroom floor
> 
> Thx for the info. Let me not pollute this thread.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Kit 7 still better than 90% of speakers out there if you don’t get the M’s it’s no big deal... 


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## tonynca

Don't use the cross block... Not enough flexibility to dial in the tune. 


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## SPAZ

Elektra, which subs did you go with? How is the output? I am loving my 2-way Utopia M setup. Next year I will for sure go with a 3-way setup by adding the extra mid but I don't see myself going away from these Utopias for a very long time.


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## jackk

Elektra said:


> Kit 7 still better than 90% of speakers out there if you don’t get the M’s it’s no big deal...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I know! I should enjoy what I have instead of drooling over what I don’t have since I have only been enjoying it for 9 months. Have not even driven the full potential fr the kit 7 yet. Thx mate 



tonynca said:


> Don't use the cross block... Not enough flexibility to dial in the tune.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yup that’s what I think too. Good reason for me to stick w/ the kit 7 for now. 

I’m very happy to read how you guys are enjoying the new line. Happy for you guys. 

Cheers,



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## Elektra

SPAZ said:


> Elektra, which subs did you go with? How is the output? I am loving my 2-way Utopia M setup. Next year I will for sure go with a 3-way setup by adding the extra mid but I don't see myself going away from these Utopias for a very long time.




I used the 10WM sub - it’s a fantastic sub output is great - I run mine off the Brax MX4 but gains are 1/3rd and -3db on the Director and it’s probably too strong for a SQ comp setting - done no EQ on it and it measures very nicely on the RTA

Which midbass did you use? I still use the Kit 7 midbass on mine - not sure if the 6wm will have any advantages in the midbass region... so I am still thinking about it - maybe get the 8WM...


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## SPAZ

I have the 6wm and the midbass is good and comparable to my previous esotar 650 (great mid). I most likely will drop the 6wm for the 8wm depending if the new car I get has space for it.


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## MattyKHZ

Elektra said:


> Installed my mids and tweeters - from the Kit 7 to the M’s - first thing I noticed is that the new speakers are calmer not as aggressive as the older ones...
> 
> I used my old kit 7 pods and modified them to fit the new speakers and I must say they sound really good... still setup for the kit 7’s so I need to redo the tuning and it’s almost good enough with a different tune...
> 
> Gonna spend some time this weekend and see how the new ones measure and re do the EQ etc... but so far the hype is real and the M’s are the business - if you liked the older range the new range will impress you and the additional cash you just spend on them will seem worth it...
> 
> Some tracks I found a little aggressive on the Kit 7’s are now listenable which saying a lot as I really liked the older range...
> 
> Let’s see after I redo the tuning... but so far they sound great! The sub has been in the car now for a few weeks and I am really impressed with it - I found the the Focal to be a improvement over the Dynaudio Esotar - it’s just a magnificent sounding driver - 40lts sealed is my enclosure off a Brax MX4 - 1/3rd gains off Helix Pro2...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Noticed you mentioned you prefer the Focal to the Dynaudio.

Was this the 3.5wm over the E430 as trying to decide between these 2 for use in a BMW and most on here rate the Esotar.

Being in the UK Focal seems cheaper than Dynaudio for some reason so more attractive cost wise.


----------



## Elektra

MattyKHZ said:


> Noticed you mentioned you prefer the Focal to the Dynaudio.
> 
> 
> 
> Was this the 3.5wm over the E430 as trying to decide between these 2 for use in a BMW and most on here rate the Esotar.
> 
> 
> 
> Being in the UK Focal seems cheaper than Dynaudio for some reason so more attractive cost wise.




I was referring to the Esotar 1200 vs 10WM - from my experience with these new drivers I would say they better than the Esotars...


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> I was referring to the Esotar 1200 vs 10WM - from my experience with these new drivers I would say they better than the Esotars...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just curious what difference that made it better in your ears? What size box was the Esotar in? 

I gotta say the Focal 10wm is nice for small enclosures according to their spec sheet.


----------



## Elektra

MattyKHZ said:


> Noticed you mentioned you prefer the Focal to the Dynaudio.
> 
> 
> 
> Was this the 3.5wm over the E430 as trying to decide between these 2 for use in a BMW and most on here rate the Esotar.
> 
> 
> 
> Being in the UK Focal seems cheaper than Dynaudio for some reason so more attractive cost wise.




Rather send me a mail - my message box is always full... [email protected]


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## tonynca

Just finished my tweeter pods. I admit I made the mistake of not sanding the texture down to level it for a more proper even texture look. However, after seeing the TBM installed in there I like how the pods are rugged to contrast with the TBM's fine machining. I think it kind of pops that way. 

I may refinish them in the future, but for now, I just wanna listen to some music and enjoy the system.
































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## haakono

That looks great! I wouldn't change anything 

What did you use to get that textured finish? Is the OEM tweeter mounting bracket used under there? Or built everything from scratch?


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## LBaudio

tweeter pods look great with that finish, and a nice contrast to that tweet finish


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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> Just finished my tweeter pods. I admit I made the mistake of not sanding the texture down to level it for a more proper even texture look. However, after seeing the TBM installed in there I like how the pods are rugged to contrast with the TBM's fine machining. I think it kind of pops that way.
> 
> I may refinish them in the future, but for now, I just wanna listen to some music and enjoy the system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Looks pretty good... they need about 4 days to run in contrary to what people say about mids and tweeters not needing time to run in...

Mine sounded much better after about 20 hours run in...

I really like these drivers - they unlike anything I have heard before... 

I would say my car improved by 100% by just replacing the drivers - and I liked the way my car sounded before...


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## SPAZ

Tony, that looks really clean. Nice work.


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## GEM592

I like the finish texture, very nice. How did you get it to come out like that (probably I missed it upthread?)


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> Looks pretty good... they need about 4 days to run in contrary to what people say about mids and tweeters not needing time to run in...
> 
> Mine sounded much better after about 20 hours run in...
> 
> I really like these drivers - they unlike anything I have heard before...
> 
> I would say my car improved by 100% by just replacing the drivers - and I liked the way my car sounded before...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I already previously put some hours into them when I had hot glue holding them up for testing/aiming purposes. I'm in the process of testing open vs closed back. I did some quick measurements as close as possible to the tweeter and I found that open back had a bit lower distortion. I need to do some more actual hearing test after I dial in the tune. I'll be posting that in that other thread I started. 



SPAZ said:


> Tony, that looks really clean. Nice work.


Thanks!



GEM592 said:


> I like the finish texture, very nice. How did you get it to come out like that (probably I missed it upthread?)


Thanks! I used SEM texture coat. 

See this thread:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ray-can-texture-tweeter-pods.html#post5754951


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## tonynca

Bonus... I tried to make Focal Utopia acrylic rings as well. Can't really see it unless the sun is shining on them though. 

These rings are defective. Uneven and lopsided. Thought I'd do something fun. 


















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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> Yeah, I already previously put some hours into them when I had hot glue holding them up for testing/aiming purposes. I'm in the process of testing open vs closed back. I did some quick measurements as close as possible to the tweeter and I found that open back had a bit lower distortion. I need to do some more actual hearing test after I dial in the tune. I'll be posting that in that other thread I started.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I used SEM texture coat.
> 
> 
> 
> See this thread:
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ray-can-texture-tweeter-pods.html#post5754951




I absolutely love mine .... and I am full of crap when it comes to audio so you must know how these have impressed me...

You should get the sub as well - very nice sub - possibly the very best sub I have heard so far...

Focal has done well with this new range... they have a transparency that I have not heard before come home or car...

My car sounds like a high end HIFI and it’s not even tuned...


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> I absolutely love mine .... and I am full of crap when it comes to audio so you must know how these have impressed me...
> 
> You should get the sub as well - very nice sub - possibly the very best sub I have heard so far...
> 
> Focal has done well with this new range... they have a transparency that I have not heard before come home or car...
> 
> My car sounds like a high end HIFI and it’s not even tuned...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The sub won't work as well as the Esotar1200 for me. I'm going to run 2 Esotars in IB. The esotars have a 18hz Fs which is excellent for IB setups. I think those 10WM are meant for smaller enclosures while still sounding great. You could put them in a big box and it's not gonna hurt though. 










10L sealed is freaking tiny!!! You need to account for the sub as well but that sub ain't all that big to begin with. 

Man, I've been missing my system because the car has been sitting for 3 weeks and I couldn't drive it due to the pod project. It's so nice to hear these beryllium tweeters again and how they just tickle the ears with tingle delights. 

For the first time in my car, I would have to say it sounds better than my Dynaudio BM5 mk3 studio monitors. The car could get loud while sounding smooth, which was exactly what I was looking for. Happy camper here.


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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> The sub won't work as well as the Esotar1200 for me. I'm going to run 2 Esotars in IB. The esotars have a 18hz Fs which is excellent for IB setups. I think those 10WM are meant for smaller enclosures while still sounding great. You could put them in a big box and it doesn't hurt though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10L sealed is freaking tiny!!! You need to account for the sub as well but that sub ain't all that big to begin with.
> 
> Man, I've been missing my system because the car has been sitting for 3 weeks and I couldn't drive it due to the pod project. It's so nice to hear these beryllium tweeters again and how they just tickle the ears with tingle delights.
> 
> For the first time in my car, I would have to say it sounds better than my Dynaudio BM5 mk3 studio monitors. The car could get loud while sounding smooth, which was exactly what I was looking for. Happy camper here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I used a 40lt sealed box for mine - the QTC is quite high so a smaller box will raise the QTC over 1 and probably prevent the sub from playing low....

I had the Esotar 12” - the Focal sub plays lower had more accuracy and plays louder.... the Esotar sub needed an astonishing amount of EQ to prevent it from bottoming out whilst the 10WM has nothing...


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> I used a 40lt sealed box for mine - the QTC is quite high so a smaller box will raise the QTC over 1 and probably prevent the sub from playing low....
> 
> I had the Esotar 12” - the Focal sub plays lower had more accuracy and plays louder.... the Esotar sub needed an astonishing amount of EQ to prevent it from bottoming out whilst the 10WM has nothing...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Wow really? I tested some very very low notes songs like Dog blood - 4mind which hits 23hz and I never bottom out on 600wrms. I was in the trunk looking at the sub to make sure it doesn't bottom out. What enclosure and how much power were you feeding them? Impressive on Focal's part if they get louder and plays lower and louder !

With one Esotar in 2cu ft I already think there's enough bass for a sealed box. Can't imagine focal getting any louder being a 10". 


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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> Wow really? I tested some very very low notes songs like Dog blood - 4mind which hits 23hz and I never bottom out on 600wrms. I was in the trunk looking at the sub to make sure it doesn't bottom out. What enclosure and how much power were you feeding them? Impressive on Focal's part if they get louder and plays lower and louder !
> 
> With one Esotar in 2cu ft I already think there's enough bass for a sealed box. Can't imagine focal getting any louder being a 10".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I cant find my measurements on the Dyn - but it literally needed EQ between the 30-40hz which was around 12dbs attenuation - not kidding in a 45lt sealed box... off a 350rms amp - it was bottoming out...

I felt my Focal Utopia 21wx sounded better - so did many others who heard my car...

With the 10WM I have plenty of output at 20hz - it’s actually off the charts like 5dbs louder than the Dyn... 

But with no EQ it was a predictable curve from 20-80hz - the Dyn needed a ton of EQ..

The Dyn didn’t actually go that low without EQ help and distorted between 30-50hz hence the massive amounts of EQ... after EQ it sounded pretty good - but the Focal sounds better with NOTHING...

Experiences may differ car to car... but honestly the 10WM did everything better... I thought about getting 2 subs but after the initial run in on the 10WM I am finding that I am turning the bass lower and lower as the sub runs in - I started on 0dbs now I am on -4.5dbs on about 30hours... 

Sorry but the 10WM in my books trumps the Dyn by quite a lot actually...


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> I cant find my measurements on the Dyn - but it literally needed EQ between the 30-40hz which was around 12dbs attenuation - not kidding in a 45lt sealed box... off a 350rms amp - it was bottoming out...
> 
> I felt my Focal Utopia 21wx sounded better - so did many others who heard my car...
> 
> With the 10WM I have plenty of output at 20hz - it’s actually off the charts like 5dbs louder than the Dyn...
> 
> But with no EQ it was a predictable curve from 20-80hz - the Dyn needed a ton of EQ..
> 
> The Dyn didn’t actually go that low without EQ help and distorted between 30-50hz hence the massive amounts of EQ... after EQ it sounded pretty good - but the Focal sounds better with NOTHING...
> 
> Experiences may differ car to car... but honestly the 10WM did everything better... I thought about getting 2 subs but after the initial run in on the 10WM I am finding that I am turning the bass lower and lower as the sub runs in - I started on 0dbs now I am on -4.5dbs on about 30hours...
> 
> Sorry but the 10WM in my books trumps the Dyn by quite a lot actually...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




That's unheard of... 350w bottoming out Esotars. I'm starting to think what you were hearing is not bottoming out but rather distortion from clipping. That's not very much power for most subs. The esotars could take way more than that from my experience. I swear I can't hear it bottom out even at max power on my Voce 5.1k amp. I actually have never experienced the sub bottom out during my testing to try to bottom them out. I'm already at max volume and ran out of juice. 

Maybe one of these days... But for now I'm very happy with the Esotar being able to rumble my interior.

I have zero EQ on my sub and it looks like this measured at my nose. 










Don't take 10-20hz from that graph too seriously. The mic is only good for 20-20khz. I tested to see if it was a mic error by applying 48db slope low cut and it appears to remove the 10-20hz so it may be accurate but I don't trust it still since the mic wasn't calibrated to read that low truthfully.


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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> That's unheard of... 350w bottoming out Esotars. I'm starting to think what you were hearing is not bottoming out but rather distortion from clipping. That's not very much power for most subs. The esotars could take way more than that from my experience. I swear I can't hear it bottom out even at max power on my Voce 5.1k amp. I actually have never experienced the sub bottom out during my testing to try to bottom them out. I'm already at max volume and ran out of juice.
> 
> Maybe one of these days... But for now I'm very happy with the Esotar being able to rumble my interior.
> 
> I have zero EQ on my sub and it looks like this measured at my nose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take 10-20hz from that graph too seriously. The mic is only good for 20-20khz. I tested to see if it was a mic error by applying 48db slope low cut and it appears to remove the 10-20hz so it may be accurate but I don't trust it still since the mic wasn't calibrated to read that low truthfully.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The Focal sub looked similar just that where yours goes horizontal at 30hz below the Utopia sub carries on up till 20hz and beyond....

I’ll post a pic later when I get my laptop out - maybe I still have the Dyn measurement on it as well... 


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## dgage

I haven't used either sub but they're both respected and the Dyn 1200 seems more capable looking at the specs across the board. It may need some DSP but I wonder if something else was wrong with your system to say a 12" with more excursion and higher sensitivity was bested in OUTPUT by a 10" with less excursion and sensitivity. And I know you have experience but we've all been there where we realize later maybe we messed something up accidentally or had been playing with different settings and didn't change something back like we thought. 

Either way, I'd have to have more people chime in before thinking the 10" Focal was better for output than the Dyn 1200. Or see measurements of a back to back test with no changes except level matching.


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## Elektra

dgage said:


> I haven't used either sub but they're both respected and the Dyn 1200 seems more capable looking at the specs across the board. It may need some DSP but I wonder if something else was wrong with your system to say a 12" with more excursion and higher sensitivity was bested in OUTPUT by a 10" with less excursion and sensitivity. And I know you have experience but we've all been there where we realize later maybe we messed something up accidentally or had been playing with different settings and didn't change something back like we thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, I'd have to have more people chime in before thinking the 10" Focal was better for output than the Dyn 1200. Or see measurements of a back to back test with no changes except level matching.




Must say there was large bump in the frequency response with the Dyn - which caused distortion. Before the Dyn I had the Focal 21wx and the first thing I noticed was that the 21wx handled the power better (albeit 350rms) - I didn’t have the confidence to lean on the Dyn. 

The Dyn needed half its frequency response to drop by 11+ dbs to avoid distortion.... it may be the frequency response in my car that caused this but both Focal subs didn’t have the same problem the Dyn did...


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## Elektra

Ok so I need to register again to post pics so I am going to describe my measurements as best I can 

So the 10WM and Esotar 12 actually measure almost the same...

The difference I can see is that the 10WM is 5dbs louder at 20hz compared to the Dyn - I have to also bare in mind that the Dyn curve is the EQd curve so if memory serves me I actually added EQ at 20hz on the Dyn - I’ll open the Helix DSP software to verify this.. 

But the 10WM has no EQ work 

I can also see the 10WM is 3db louder at 30hz as well - only at 40hz are the 2 subs playing at the same level.. 

I can also see that the 10WM is on average 4dbs louder or you can say shallower slope from 40hz to 80hz (crossover point) 

If the mic is correct - the 10WM is louder at 10hz by 7dbs it’s pretty flat from 30hz to 10hz whereas the Dyn drops at a fairly steep slope downwards from 30hz to 10hz...

If you saw what I have in front of me you would take the 10WM - considering the amount of work I had to do to get it like this compared to nothing on the 10WM 

If you wish I can email this to someone and they can post it up for everyone to see...


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## Elektra

On my Helix Software for the Dyn it looks like this...

25hz -3db
32hz -11.75db
40hz -14.5db
50hz +2.25db
63hz +6db
80hz +2.75db

Considering that 10WM played smoother and louder between 40-80hz with no EQ whereas you can see how much I added to the Dyn and it’s STILL lower in output....


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## tonynca

Elektra said:


> On my Helix Software for the Dyn it looks like this...
> 
> 25hz -3db
> 32hz -11.75db
> 40hz -14.5db
> 50hz +2.25db
> 63hz +6db
> 80hz +2.75db
> 
> Considering that 10WM played smoother and louder between 40-80hz with no EQ whereas you can see how much I added to the Dyn and it’s STILL lower in output....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yeah you can't EQ -14db on a sub and expect it to play loud haha. I think there's something weird going on here where the Esotar wasn't working well in your car. I'm crossed at 80hz 48db slopes (FIR filter). As you could see in my previous post the chart shows that my sub started rolling off at 50 down to the null at 77hz. I'm not trying to EQ more 60-80hz to get it flat. The car's cabin has a natural roll off of its own and this will do more harm than good to try to get 55-80hz to where the 20-55hz levels. If you were boosting 20hz that's all bad. Those freq are long throws and you already don't have enough power. I'm guessing when you turned up the volume to make up for the huge loss of volume at 30-40hz the amp started clipping so you thought it was bottoming out. Do you still have the Esotar?

I think the Focal may have worked better in your car but those Dynaudio were mishandled a bit with the excessive EQ lol. I don't know how they were installed so it's hard to say. I need more details there. I do still want to run across a 10WM to determine. I wish you were in California and not halfway across the world 

If you had a raw chart for the response curve of the Esotar that'll be great. Before any EQ. 


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## dcfis

You did play with polarity right?


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## Elektra

tonynca said:


> Yeah you can't EQ -14db on a sub and expect it to play loud haha. I think there's something weird going on here where the Esotar wasn't working well in your car. I'm crossed at 80hz 48db slopes (FIR filter). As you could see in my previous post the chart shows that my sub started rolling off at 50 down to the null at 77hz. I'm not trying to EQ more 60-80hz to get it flat. The car's cabin has a natural roll off of its own and this will do more harm than good to try to get 55-80hz to where the 20-55hz levels. If you were boosting 20hz that's all bad. Those freq are long throws and you already don't have enough power. I'm guessing when you turned up the volume to make up for the huge loss of volume at 30-40hz the amp started clipping so you thought it was bottoming out. Do you still have the Esotar?
> 
> I think the Focal may have worked better in your car but those Dynaudio were mishandled a bit with the excessive EQ lol. I don't know how they were installed so it's hard to say. I need more details there. I do still want to run across a 10WM to determine. I wish you were in California and not halfway across the world
> 
> If you had a raw chart for the response curve of the Esotar that'll be great. Before any EQ.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Before EQ - the Dyn had a massive peak between 30-40hz hence the massive attenuation on the EQ. I do have a REW plot of the sub before EQ but I can’t post it...

The Dyn was actually distorting I actually turned the power down on the amp - out of the 350rms available I guess I was giving it around 250 max... amp wasn’t distorting I just had a massive low end rise anomaly that didn’t exist on both Focal drivers 

Look after EQ the Dyn did impress - if the 10WM didn’t come I would have kept the Dyn - I still have the Dyn...

What I like about the 10WM is that it can play low and being a 10” it doesn’t flap about as most 12” subs do... it’s also very accurate around the midbass area so it integrates well.. 

Play some Billy Eilish and the low really does impress... I am running the 10WM of a Brax MX4 and the midbass - tweeters and mids off a Brax NOX..

Really nice setup - was worried about the NOX not being strong enough but it’s plenty...

The MX4 is really idling in my setup gains on 1/3rd... 

When I ran the Dyn previously I had a different amp which bridged to 350rms but it wasn’t 2ohm stable so I could not use it to drive the 10WM so I had to revise my install...

Send me a email - [email protected] and I’ll email you the pics so you can see what I am talking about...



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## Elektra

dcfis said:


> You did play with polarity right?




Yes I did...


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## Bari87

Yesterday i received my pair of 3.5WM Drivers. As i have written i had the ScanSpeak 10F before and done a 1:1 Test (with new measurement of course). Unfortunately the 3.5WM doesnt make anything better then the 10F. Only difference is that the 3.5WM needs +2,25db of power (it was expected since the SPL DataSheet numbers) and you can cross it a little bit lower before its getting crap.

But in SQ-Matters nothing better. So i guess tha suggestions that the 3.5WM will be a holy different class comes from guys that never done a 1:1 Test. Of course i will keep them but i never would suggest them or buy it again, since you can get the same / little better sound with 10F Drivers.


----------



## haakono

I would suggest using them for a few weeks before deciding anything, just plopping them in straight from the box without letting them break in before you do any critical comparison won't do much good.


----------



## Bari87

BreakIn whas (of course) done, 12hr with SinusSweep 80-120Hz. 
(It's not the first pair of Midranges that i own  I have also Thesis TH 3.0 etc)

Guess nobody else have done a 1:1 Test with the specific drivers so can not compare.

As i have written you can of course cross them lower then the 10F, but in the Range from 250-2000Hz i didnt notice any advantage. That means not that the 3.5WM are bad, but that the 10F are extremly good - especially for the price.


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## audiocholic

Bari87 said:


> BreakIn whas (of course) done, 12hr with SinusSweep 80-120Hz.
> 
> Guese nobody else have done a 1:1 Test with the specific drivers.



Isnt 80-120hz sinewave hardcore of a frequency to break in these drivers?
the FS is 105 and its only a 3.5 inch midrange?


would 12hrs be enough? I think this really depends,
have had some drivers that barely changed at all and then others that changed noticeably even after 50hrs


----------



## Bari87

You just need to adjust the volume (for the Sinus), so that the driver is in his Xmax-Range. You can put 120Hz at lower Volume for Xmax or 200Hz at higher volume / or till the max. Input from VoiceCoil is achieved,

Dont compare 50hr of normal music (where the driver isnt making any noticable Xmax) with Sinus. If a speaker doesnt are ready after >10Hr Sinus nearly at his Xmax, he would never be ready.

And again, just do the same 1:1 Test and then we can talk. If you never used a 10F and then the 3.5WM (in same car, same amplifier, same headunit, same Sub/Tweeters/Midwoofers etc) you just cant make a opinion. Whas really hopping that a pair of 700€ driver would be a little better then a pair of 180€ driver, but nope.


----------



## bbfoto

audiocholic said:


> Isnt 80-120hz sinewave hardcore of a frequency to break in these drivers?
> the FS is 105 and its only a 3.5 inch midrange?
> 
> 
> would 12hrs be enough? I think this really depends,
> have had some drivers that barely changed at all and then others that changed noticeably even after 50hrs



*GR Research - Driver Burn-In Facts - Multiple Driver Test with Objective Measurements*

*GR Research - Driver Burn-In Myths*


----------



## Bari87

Nothin new  And im not referring to the Fs, since even yet you can cross the 3.5WM deeper then the 10F as i said.

Just made the 1:1 Test and then we can compare opinions and experiences.


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## audiocholic

Bari87 said:


> Nothin new  And im not referring to the Fs, since even yet you can cross the 3.5WM deeper then the 10F as i said.
> 
> Just made the 1:1 Test and then we can compare opinions and experiences.




have you compared the 10f to say another high end midrange at all? say perhaps a Brax ML3? 

coincedence I have a very close friend who changed from 10f to ml3 and stated the ml3 was better but better is subjective so no real science behind this statement


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## Elektra

audiocholic said:


> have you compared the 10f to say another high end midrange at all? say perhaps a Brax ML3?
> 
> 
> 
> coincedence I have a very close friend who changed from 10f to ml3 and stated the ml3 was better but better is subjective so no real science behind this statement




I have the 10F’s as well and the 3.5wm the difference between the two is naturalness and smoothness - I found the 10F to be very lively...

The 10F is a good driver especially for the money... you also have to consider that you can’t just swap drivers as some drivers have slightly different frequency response require different enclosures and perform better on and off axis - lots of variables to consider also - the 10F is more efficient so you May have attributed the difference in volume as a indication of SQ...

To determine which is better largely depends on how it’s installed and how it’s tuned...

Simply swapping them same enclosure same amp same EQ means absolutely nothing... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

audiocholic said:


> have you compared the 10f to say another high end midrange at all? say perhaps a Brax ML3?
> 
> 
> 
> coincedence I have a very close friend who changed from 10f to ml3 and stated the ml3 was better but better is subjective so no real science behind this statement




For a budget system 10F all the way - you simply wont get a better midrange driver for twice the money..

Lots of scan drivers represent great value and pretty good performance - but they come with a compromise - I.e. enclosure requirements and not being suitable for IB installs and questionable build quality for car use with moisture etc...

If you can overcome these issues you could buy the best of the best Illuminator / Revelator series drivers for around $2000 - something I was always curious about and considering myself..

The Focal Kit 7 was a very good sounding system and I found the M range has improved on them further - personally I am happy with them...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## audiocholic

Elektra said:


> I have the 10F’s as well and the 3.5wm the difference between the two is naturalness and smoothness - I found the 10F to be very lively...
> 
> The 10F is a good driver especially for the money... you also have to consider that you can’t just swap drivers as some drivers have slightly different frequency response require different enclosures and perform better on and off axis - lots of variables to consider also - the 10F is more efficient so you May have attributed the difference in volume as a indication of SQ...
> 
> To determine which is better largely depends on how it’s installed and how it’s tuned...
> 
> Simply swapping them same enclosure same amp same EQ means absolutely nothing...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





the installer for both the 10f and the brax ml3 were the same guys/shop and have very good tools ,knowledge/experience,he is actually the morel & mosconi distributor here


highly doubt they just dropped in the new driver and called it a day 
the amount these guys pay here for 3 way high end is pretty much the cost of a healthy kidney here mate  trust me the owner probably had the shop closed for him and had them really precision install & tune till its perfect


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## Bari87

Sure, as i have written i own Thesis TH3.0 as well, its not my first pair of Midrange.

And of course i had to made a new measurement and setup after change. Volume is the same, thats why i know that for the same dB the Focal needs +2,25db in comparison to the 10F and that you can cross the 3.5WM lower then the 10F

Never said that the 3.5WM is bad, but in comparison to the price - for me - not worth the money. Expect of course the fact that everybody will think that the system is now soundig better then with a much cheaper 10F ? Called psycho-acoustics. Its the same if you tell somebody that you have now Genesis Amps, they think everything is sounding better xD
But enough from me.

Best regards
Bari


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## GreatLaBroski

I appreciate your candid impressions. A lot of people don't like to admit to themselves when they cannot hear a difference or don't prefer an upgrade that cost them $$$$. I respect honesty, both with oneself and with others. Otherwise you end up with the "Golden Ear" club of people who swear that they can hear the difference between a $25 set of RCA cables and a $1k set of RCA cables. Most of that is because they're hearing what they want to hear.

I do agree that the 10F's are very good. They're the best bang-for-the-buck mids I've come across. There are only 2 other mids that I think are better. But even so they're not "way" better and they're many times the price. 

The older Utopia 3w2Be's were not better than the 10F's IMO. They were good for what they were, but they had some issues. If these new ones made it to parity with the 10F's then that's a good improvement over the older generation.


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## Bari87

Well i dont need lie to myself. Is nothing new that a more expensive car hi-fi product should not be better than something cheaper. That is also one of the charms of this hobby, to test components under the same conditions and make comparisons. I used to think that my Genesis sounded better than a mid-range amplifier until I tested 1: 1 and found out that at the same volume or voltage at the speaker output they both sounded the same as long as you got/needed the same Watt/Performance etc. 

Very nice setup by the way! Unfortunately i do not have space for 18W/12MU drivers 

Best regards
Bari


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## haakono

Bari87 said:


> But in SQ-Matters nothing better. So i guess tha suggestions that the 3.5WM will be a holy different class comes from guys that never done a 1:1 Test. Of course i will keep them but i never would suggest them or buy it again, since you can get the same / little better sound with 10F Drivers.


I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. You say to get the same or a little better sound with the Scanspeaks, but you will off course keep the Utopias? Why?


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## Bari87

I did not say i will keep them installed in car or i dont need to keep them installed. As i have written they are making nothing better, expect the lower cross, but even nothing more worst  Selling would not make sense since nobody in Germany is interested in that kind of price regions on used thinks. For another build etc its not bad to have something in reserve.

But if someone is interested i can send them


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## tonynca

I need to pick up a pair of 10F to test. I'm having trouble believing. I really don't have a bias towards anything. Whatever gets me the sound I seek is what I go for.

Do you mind giving us a bit more detail about your setup? A system is only as good as its weakest link.

1. Which processor?
2. Which amps?
3. Which source unit?
4. Where are the mids mounted?

If I see a set of 10F in the classified, I'll pick them up for testing. =)


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## Bari87

Sure, here is my build: https://tinyurl.com/yxmymoe6
Cross-Settings should be approximately: 
20-50Hz Sub
65-150Hz MidWoofer
250-2200 MidRange
2500-OpenEnd Tweeters

Mids are mounted FreeAir on the Dashboard, i've get made rings on MidRange and MidWoofers so i can easily change the Loudspeakers in "5Minutes"


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## tonynca

If you have a Macbook Pro 15 it would be nice if you could test using optical output into the Helix to play hi-res content 24bit/96khz. That Pioneer headunit is meh. 

Your amps are also just OK. I had the Alpine F4 and M6 in my car before. They were good but really not audiophile grade. Please don't be offended. I'm not putting your equipment down. I'm just saying that the system is only as good as the weakest link.

The problem I hear with most of the paper cone mids that I've had installed in my car was that they lacked detail. The Focal 3w2be and 3.5wm are too detailed that it hurts sometimes when you're listening to bad recordings or masters. They actually fixed some of that upper mid-range harshness using the TMD surround. When you feed them hi-res content that's well-produced, it's just transparent and detailed.

It's a matter of preference I supposed. I tried Hybrid Audio L3SE and X3-PP. I did not like how relaxed they sound. It had tons of mids but the upper midrange was tucked. I had to add some 1-4khz while the Focals, I had to cut it to lessen fatigue at high volume. As you may know, you could always take something away from a speaker but adding most likely won't work.

If I come across a set of 10F I will definitely give them a try. Thanks for your input!


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## Bari87

As i told you, i've own many Amps
Steg K Series, Eton PA Series, Helix Competition, Genesis FourChannel III etc etc If you set them exactly to the same Voltage on LoudSpeaker-Output (with 50Hz Sinus) they all sound exactly the same. But if you have only 0,x V(olt) difference on the Loudspeaker-Output Terminal they sound different.. So for me there is no argument to install my Genesis FourChannel in the car instead of the PDX. Only sound difference is a little more background noise from the PDX if you dont have adjust it well, but sound exactly the same and that the Genesis will sound like crap if BatteryVoltage is under 10,5V instead of the PDX plays until 9,5V with no difference.

Just made (again) the 1:1 (Blind-)Test and then get your opinion. I know its hard to believe cause of psychoacoustic, but it is so unfortunately. Nobody ever could tell me if i was running now my Genesis or Eton or PDX Amplifier etc. in A/B switching between of the amps.

And if my setup is not good enough to show the differences between the 200 and 700€ Midrange-driver, the most setups out there will not be. Dont forget i run Thesis TH II Tweeters and there is a noticable difference to my Micro Precision 7.28 MKIII and also to my Micro Precision Z-28 MKII Series  Also a noticable difference between Midwoofers like Focal K2 Power, Andrian Audio A165G, ML1650.3.


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## GreatLaBroski

Don’t expect the 10F’s to be made of unicorn dust, they’re just very solid midranges for the price. Don’t expect to cross them below 400hz.

I felt the same as you about the 3w2be’s. The hard cone communicated an edginess that I didn’t find natural. Also lower male vocals had a slight strained character to them. They were pretty good for their size though. I agree lots of detail, I’m just not sure it was a good trade at the expense of sounding natural. When comparing directly with other drivers, I had issues with the tonality. But that’s just me. 2-4khz rise was also an issue, although that can be eq’ed out.

This is a thread about the new Focal utopia series so I won’t continue to drag this off topic. I was just dropping in to say that there’s no reason you need to run out and buy yourself 10F’s. They’re just a good valued mid that’s mostly very well behaved.


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## Bari87

Sure agree!
Just wanted to tell my experience with a 1:1 change. And the statement some pages before, that the 3.5WM would be a total different sound league is unfortunately totaly false. Not no less.

But lets go on to the other drivers from Utopia M Series!


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## haakono

Worth to mention though, that the 3.5wm har a pretty flat frequency response all the way up to about 10khz, even 30 degrees off axis. If your limiting it to just over 2000hz before crossing over to the tweeter, you're maybe not getting the best performance out of the driver.

So to be fair to all parties, a 1:1 comparison is also very depandant on the actual setup/configuration itself. 

Setup *a* with mids on axis in sealed enclosures, playing from 300-8000hz will probably have very different result than setup *b* with mids in free-air, off axis playing from 200-2500hz, if you just swap two midrange drivers 1:1 to compare them. One of them might play better than the other in one setup, and worse in the other setup.


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## GreatLaBroski

haakono said:


> Worth to mention though, that the 3.5wm har a pretty flat frequency response all the way up to about 10khz, even 30 degrees off axis. If your limiting it to just over 2000hz before crossing over to the tweeter, you're maybe not getting the best performance out of the driver.
> 
> So to be fair to all parties, a 1:1 comparison is also very depandant on the actual setup/configuration itself.
> 
> Setup *a* with mids on axis in sealed enclosures, playing from 300-8000hz will probably have very different result than setup *b* with mids in free-air, off axis playing from 200-2500hz, if you just swap two midrange drivers 1:1 to compare them. One of them might play better than the other in one setup, and worse in the other setup.


I’ve owned dozens of midrange drivers and tested all of them. I had over 20 on hand at once at one point. I have no horse in this race and can only give my honest feedback. Again I’d like to avoid derailing this thread and keep the discussion on the new Utopias.


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## Bari87

Sure that the setup and all other boundary conditions like car, mounting position etc are infected the test. But to be honest even when runing thoose two drivers fullrange for a quick/first test at home only with bass cut, the 10F has more benefits since it is a fullrange driver and covers the higher frequencies better.

But since it is a midrange Test i dont refer it.
The Violino II tweeters have great sound pressure reserves so you can cross them easily on 2-2,5Khz and get your ear blow xD Cause of the positition difference Tweeter/Midrange i have to cross the Mids relative low. Hope you understand.

Simple & short conclusion: Before saying Driver A is much better then Driver B: Test it without looking at the price (+psychoacoustic) 

Best regards
Bari


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## Bari87

Just for Info, we got measured the speakers (Laboratory)
Terrible SPL 84,5db and between 500-1200Hz 6db drop. In DashMount even more worst (of course).

Thanks god i could sell them. 

So if someone wants to know if a MidRange Speaker 3-4" is good, just take one 10F for testing it 1:1 before saying it is a "holy different class" xD


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## Elektra

Bari87 said:


> Just for Info, we got measured the speakers (Laboratory)
> 
> Terrible SPL 84,5db and between 500-1200Hz 6db drop. In DashMount even more worst (of course).
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks god i could sell them.
> 
> 
> 
> So if someone wants to know if a MidRange Speaker 3-4" is good, just take one 10F for testing it 1:1 before saying it is a "holy different class" xD




I dunno about terrible - I found the new M’s to be superior to the older Utopia’s and the SPL is just fine for me 

If you like the 10f then great... I have both and the M’s are superior sorry.. 


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## Bari87

Thats not about "liking" its about what you pay and what you get. Numbers or measurements are not lying, unfortunately. Would love to have better performance with them but that isnt.

Just consider it as a Real Life 1:1 Test, not no less. So i am out from the topic.


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## Elektra

I think the 12M and 12MU would be something to consider - for the price the 10F is a winner no doubt - I can’t fault the 3.5WM... 


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## Bari87

Yes they are very very nice drivers. Unfortunately 10F size is maximum for my mount position. 12M works free air / dash mount very nice!


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## haakono

Has anyone played around with enclosure volume for the 10WM subwoofer? From the spec sheet they recommend between 10-15 liters, in Focal's own democar they have a tiny 8 liter enclosure.. But I think I read somewhere on here that 40 liters was used? 

I have one on order now, so going for a full Utopia M setup.


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## Elektra

haakono said:


> Has anyone played around with enclosure volume for the 10WM subwoofer? From the spec sheet they recommend between 10-15 liters, in Focal's own democar they have a tiny 8 liter enclosure.. But I think I read somewhere on here that 40 liters was used?
> 
> 
> 
> I have one on order now, so going for a full Utopia M setup.




I have one in a 40lt sealed box - due to the high QTS a small enclosure would be above 1.2+ QTS I was worried the sub would not play low in a small box...

From experience on the 21wx it played better in a larger box...

If I had the time I would maybe try a 18lt box... according Focal (Orca) a 30lt box is ideal for most applications which yields a 0.9QTS....


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## Elektra

Bari87 said:


> Yes they are very very nice drivers. Unfortunately 10F size is maximum for my mount position. 12M works free air / dash mount very nice!




Did you ever try the 12MU... not much is said about this driver on the net..


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## GreatLaBroski

Elektra said:


> Did you ever try the 12MU... not much is said about this driver on the net..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've said a lot about the 12mu's. They're my favorite mids.


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## GMCtrk

GreatLaBroski said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ever try the 12MU... not much is said about this driver on the net..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> I've said a lot about the 12mu's. They're my favorite mids. <img
> src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
Click to expand...

Superior to e430?


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## GreatLaBroski

GMCtrk said:


> Superior to e430?


Different to the e430's.

Edit: I've spoke about the e430's vs the 12mu's in other threads and I don't want to pollute a Focal Utopia thread with this discussion. I feel it's kind of rude even though I understand that all these drivers should be in consideration at the Focal Utopia's price bracket. Either search for my other comments or feel free to start another thread or PM me with specific questions. I want to be respectful to OP's thread.


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## haakono

Elektra said:


> I have one in a 40lt sealed box - due to the high QTS a small enclosure would be above 1.2+ QTS I was worried the sub would not play low in a small box...
> 
> If I had the time I would maybe try a 18lt box... according Focal (Orca) a 30lt box is ideal for most applications which yields a 0.9QTS....


I think I'll start out using it in my test box (15L sealed) I built for a Helix Q10W that I've been using for the last year or so, along with the Focal PS165F3 component set up front. Would be interesting to see/hear how those two subs compare, as I liked the Helix better than the Focal ES25K I had before that. 

Also it would be interesting to compare it to the 10" from the F40th anniversary set, but keeping that set boxed and fresh until a buyer comes along


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## Elektra

haakono said:


> I think I'll start out using it in my test box (15L sealed) I built for a Helix Q10W that I've been using for the last year or so, along with the Focal PS165F3 component set up front. Would be interesting to see/hear how those two subs compare, as I liked the Helix better than the Focal ES25K I had before that.
> 
> 
> 
> Also it would be interesting to compare it to the 10" from the F40th anniversary set, but keeping that set boxed and fresh until a buyer comes along




I would be curious how the 15lt enclosure sounds like... please report back - if you could measure it and post the results - I suspect it would be great in the lower midbass attack but at 30hz below it may be lacking? 

But if it has great bottom end with a 15lt enclosure it opens the door to install 2 subs... 


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## SkizeR

tried the midranges the other day. direct swap with another high end set of speakers in someones car that im familiar with.. REALLY good. If they can handle high output i will be putting these in my project car


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## Elektra

SkizeR said:


> tried the midranges the other day. direct swap with another high end set of speakers in someones car that im familiar with.. REALLY good. If they can handle high output i will be putting these in my project car




Yeah I have the mids and tweeters as well and they are very nice - tweeters especially transparent and smooth


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## drop1

Elektra said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> 
> tried the midranges the other day. direct swap with another high end set of speakers in someones car that im familiar with.. REALLY good. If they can handle high output i will be putting these in my project car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I have the mids and tweeters as well and they are very nice - tweeters especially transparent and smooth
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I like my frog stuff. Truly but I'm getting a bit bored with the highs. 

I had the old utopia wrx comps and I loved them, particularly the tweeters. 

I havent installed my gb25s yet. I keep wondering if I'd be happier going back to focal. This is my first car in almost 20 years that doesnt have a focal front end and it sounds really good but I always feel like it's missing something. 

Sucks no shop near me is willing to put utopias on a sound board.


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## bbfoto

SkizeR said:


> tried the midranges the other day. direct swap with another high end set of speakers in someones car that im familiar with.. REALLY good. If they can handle high output i will be putting these in my project car


As long as you don't need to set your HPF too low on them you should be happy. Their main limitation is excursion. But it's a midrange, and a 3.5" one at that...so, there's that. 

They mate up with the 8WM extremely well, but on the other hand those are a bit excursion-limited as well on the low end. Which leads to matching them with the M subwoofer.

So what I'm getting at is, I think that the new Focal Utopia M drivers will work really well when used _together_ as a complete system. But it gets a bit trickier if you want to try to mix & match other drivers with just one of the Utopia M's (except for maybe using the subwoofer and tweeters in your existing setup).


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## bbfoto

drop1 said:


> I like my frog stuff. Truly but I'm getting a bit bored with the highs.
> 
> I had the old utopia wrx comps and I loved them, particularly the tweeters.
> 
> I havent installed my gb25s yet. I keep wondering if I'd be happier going back to focal. This is my first car in almost 20 years that doesnt have a focal front end and it sounds really good but I always feel like it's missing something.
> 
> Sucks no shop near me is willing to put utopias on a sound board.


A good dealer should be able to hook you up with a decent discount off of the MSRP of the new Utopia TBM tweeters. IMO they are still too expensive even with the discount, but if you can afford them, it's one of the absolute best tweeters available IMO.

If you can accommodate a somewhat large fromat tweeter in your install, I would go for it. Either that or maybe one of the Bilesma Beryllium tweeters...I'm still waiting to compare the two, so no personal experience with the Bilesma yet.

But IMO the new TBM is one of those few tweeters that has really special highs...great micro-detail and clean, fast transients without the spitty harshness and fatigue.


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## notn41

I don't know if theyre worth it


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## bbfoto

notn41 said:


> I don't know if theyre worth it


No one will know if it's personally worth it until they actually hear a complete system that is properly installed and tuned that uses them.

IMO you can get top level sound with some of the better, less expensive drivers.


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## Eodbrad

I have a 21wx currently. No...fancy active setup yet, but I'll get there in time. (Expensive) 2018 f150 supercrew b&o audio. 14L sealed enclosure behind the seat. (Was as big as I could get it without moving the oem rear window motor) its tied Into a LOC from the oem amp sub out. Jl 250/L amp @4ohm. Is the focal 10wm ..that.. much better than the 21wx? I haven't finalized the final tie down of the box, and if the 10wm is worth the upgrade I'll do that and finalize it. (Plans to go tbm/3.5/8wm for 3way active...in the future.


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## Elektra

Eodbrad said:


> I have a 21wx currently. No...fancy active setup yet, but I'll get there in time. (Expensive) 2018 f150 supercrew b&o audio. 14L sealed enclosure behind the seat. (Was as big as I could get it without moving the oem rear window motor) its tied Into a LOC from the oem amp sub out. Jl 250/L amp @4ohm. Is the focal 10wm ..that.. much better than the 21wx? I haven't finalized the final tie down of the box, and if the 10wm is worth the upgrade I'll do that and finalize it. (Plans to go tbm/3.5/8wm for 3way active...in the future.




I had the 21wx and have the 10WM - for me the 10WM has all the qualities of the 21wx and has the ability to dig deeper and handle more power - for me the 10WM is a exceptional driver - but then again so was the 21wx 

14lts may be a bit small for both drivers though.... I ran both subs in a 40lt sealed enclosure...


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## Kutlow

I am looking to get a new system. I'm looking at the focal Utopia's m using the 8 inch woofer instead of the 6.5 and the midrange 3.5 and tweeter in the front doors. Then using the K2 coaxial in the rear doors. I'm going with 2 Jl audio 12w7 in a sealed enclosure. Either the mosconi 8 to 12 or the audison bit 1. Using the Jl audio xdv2 800 8 channel to power the focals. Then a evo 3000.1d sound digital amp for my two sub's. If anyone sees anything not good please let me know. I don't want to make a costly mistake. 304-421-5777 text or call please.


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## bbfoto

Eodbrad said:


> I have a 21wx currently. No...fancy active setup yet, but I'll get there in time. (Expensive) 2018 f150 supercrew b&o audio. 14L sealed enclosure behind the seat. (Was as big as I could get it without moving the oem rear window motor) its tied Into a LOC from the oem amp sub out. Jl 250/L amp @4ohm. Is the focal 10wm ..that.. much better than the 21wx? I haven't finalized the final tie down of the box, and if the 10wm is worth the upgrade I'll do that and finalize it. (Plans to go tbm/3.5/8wm for 3way active...in the future.


I suspect that your main problem with the SQ in the F-150 will be more to do with having to use the mediocre OEM Head Unit & Amp with a LOC as your source signal. That will always hold back the rest of the install and any components or subwoofers that you choose.

Try to see if the new *iDatalink KIT-MFT1* will work for your vehicle, and if so, install a good aftermarket head unit such as one of the newer Kenwood eXcelon Reference (XR) HD double-DINs.

Check out...






There are also some good overview & install videos on the _*Five Star Car Stereo*_ YouTube channel about the iDatalink KIT-MFT1 for the Ford F-150s.

IMO, you've got to start with a good source signal first. Only then will you truly be able to hear the real quality of any high-end equipment that you install downstream. Using (and spending big money for) ultra-high-end speakers and subwoofers when they will be combined with a _just okay_ source signal seems a bit pointless and fruitless.

Just my .02


----------



## bbfoto

Kutlow said:


> I am looking to get a new system. I'm looking at the focal Utopia's m using the 8 inch woofer instead of the 6.5 and the midrange 3.5 and tweeter in the front doors. Then using the K2 coaxial in the rear doors. I'm going with 2 Jl audio 12w7 in a sealed enclosure. Either the mosconi 8 to 12 or the audison bit 1. Using the Jl audio xdv2 800 8 channel to power the focals. Then a evo 3000.1d sound digital amp for my two sub's. If anyone sees anything not good please let me know. I don't want to make a costly mistake. 304-421-5777 text or call please.


Welcome to DIYMA. Unfortunately you've arrived just when a lot of the core crew here have migrated to the Car Audio Junkies forums (CAJ). I recommend CAJ as well.

Everything you mentioned above looks great IMO. Though personally, I would go a different route for my DSP. I'm not a fan of either of the DSPs you are considering.

Also, as I mentioned above, you really need to start with a great source signal to feed all of this high-end gear. What will you be using for your head unit or main source of music playback?


----------



## Kutlow

I was going to keep the factory head unit and I guess bluetooth from my phone or an iPad. What do you suggest?

What subwoofers do people with these utopia m and audio frog components use? I been looking at the jl 12W7 or W6. Been reading bad stuff about the W7 not sounding good a bit muddy.


----------



## drop1

Kutlow said:


> I was going to keep the factory head unit and I guess bluetooth from my phone or an iPad. What do you suggest?
> 
> What subwoofers do people with these utopia m and audio frog components use? I been looking at the jl 12W7 or W6. Been reading bad stuff about the W7 not sounding good a bit muddy.


I ran the w6 with my old utopias and and liked it a lot. 

The adire Brahma sounds really nice and clean. Cleaner and more output than the w6. Not muddy at all.


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## 01LSi

So, what do people think about these in comparison to Audiofrog GB series?

Still planning my next build. I have the TBM in a box. Haven't decided on a midrange yet. Planning for 6wm (with an open mind about adding a 3.5wm eventually), but curious about peoples impression of how they stack against the GB60 (and GB40)


----------



## thedynoguy

I've got the Utopia 3.5m's in my dash and they are awesome. According to Nick Apicella they're "maybe the best" 3.5's that he's heard to date...


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## SkizeR

01LSi said:


> So, what do people think about these in comparison to Audiofrog GB series?
> 
> Still planning my next build. I have the TBM in a box. Haven't decided on a midrange yet. Planning for 6wm (with an open mind about adding a 3.5wm eventually), but curious about peoples impression of how they stack against the GB60 (and GB40)


The GB series is about as good as it gets in the 1500-3000 dollar price range in my experience. The Utopia M just seems to be a step above that. They are like 3x the cost of the GB, but obviously not 3x better.


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## dgage

SkizeR, I’m not sure I buy this. I’m pretty sure it is well known that Focal tweeters are way too bright. Lol!


----------



## SLicK55 AMG

SkizeR said:


> The GB series is about as good as it gets in the 1500-3000 dollar price range in my experience. The Utopia M just seems to be a step above that. They are like 3x the cost of the GB, but obviously not 3x better.


I'm curious if you've heard/installed the new ARC Audio RS Series 1.0,3.0,6.0 speakers. 

I am currently having them installed in my car along with the ARC 1000.6/DSP. There are no AudioFrog dealers/installers proximal to me so I went with ARC as I've read good things here...Thanks.


----------



## SkizeR

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I'm curious if you've heard/installed the new ARC Audio RS Series 1.0,3.0,6.0 speakers.
> 
> I am currently having them installed in my car along with the ARC 1000.6/DSP. There are no AudioFrog dealers/installers proximal to me so I went with ARC as I've read good things here...Thanks.


I've heard em (and even used variants of them). They're also really good

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## SLicK55 AMG

SkizeR said:


> I've heard em (and even used variants of them). They're also really good
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Great to hear! Thanks!


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## Mullings

the tbm’s aren’t bright at all, pretty neutral and insanely detailed, I know you guys love the frogs but these are on a whole different level


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## dgage

Mullings said:


> the tbm’s aren’t bright at all, pretty neutral and insanely detailed, I know you guys love the frogs but these are on a whole different level


Guess I didn’t use enough sarcasm or more likely, just a poor joke. There was another thread several weeks ago that blanket said Focal tweeters were too bright.

I have the Focal TBM and 3.5WM that I hope to test against the Frogs GB10/GB25 and a TBD beryllium tweeter with the Dyn E430 later this spring when I (finally) start working on my install. Glad to hear you like the Focals so much,


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## Mullings

I got it, I just want the word to get out there that there is better speakers out there for the people that doesn’t “settle for”.


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## VegasStereo

dgage said:


> Guess I didn’t use enough sarcasm or more likely, just a poor joke. There was another thread several weeks ago that blanket said Focal tweeters were too bright.
> 
> I have the Focal TBM and 3.5WM that I hope to test against the Frogs GB10/GB25 and a TBD beryllium tweeter with the Dyn E430 later this spring when I (finally) start working on my install. Glad to hear you like the Focals so much,


I think that was the member bladest


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## Elektra

I had the M’s in now for around 6months and every time I listen to them I always leave the car thinking - “geez this car sounds great” pretty sure they can be dialed in even more but just when I think maybe I have some spare time maybe I should do a bit of tuning I think to myself why mess with what already sounds great...

If it’s not broken don’t fix it....

The only thing I would really like to do is buy the 8WM drivers - but since moving to a new house and with the corona virus life is a bit uncertain right now.... so I’ll wait for times to get better before I splash out.... also look at the Ultra or Brax DSP long term....


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## dgage

Elektra said:


> The only thing I would really like to do is buy the 8WM drivers


Glad you’re enjoying your Focals so much. The only thing I worry with the 8WM is that they only have 5.5 mm of excursion. Looking at the similar Dyn MW172 or smaller GB60, they both have 9mm of excursion. It almost seems like they made the 8WM to be more usable in a 2-way (based on the freq chart) instead of making it a midbass for the 3-way set. But I’d be interested in hearing anyone‘s experience that has them.


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## rton20s

dgage said:


> Glad you’re enjoying your Focals so much. The only thing I worry with the 8WM is that they only have 5.5 mm of excursion. Looking at the similar Dyn MW172 or smaller GB60, they both have 9mm of excursion. It almost seems like they made the 8WM to be more usable in a 2-way (based on the freq chart) instead of making it a midbass for the 3-way set. But I’d be interested in hearing anyone‘s experience that has them.


Both @SkizeR and @locoface have extensive experience with the Audiofrog GB60 and now the Utopia M. I think between those two, they could give you a pretty good idea about the trade offs in that match up. 

On the MW172, I don't think the 9mm "linear excursion" is one way Xmax. In their documentation Dynaudio lists their linear excursion as 9mm "peak to peak." That would make the Xmax only 4.5mm, which seems more likely.


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## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> Both @SkizeR and @locoface have extensive experience with the Audiofrog GB60 and now the Utopia M. I think between those two, they could give you a pretty good idea about the trade offs in that match up.
> 
> On the MW172, I don't think the 9mm "linear excursion" is one way Xmax. In their documentation Dynaudio lists their linear excursion as 9mm "peak to peak." That would make the Xmax only 4.5mm, which seems more likely.


I'll be using the 8s in our next build, and I just got kevin a set of the 8s as well. Not sure when hes going to install them

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## dgage

rton20s said:


> On the MW172, I don't think the 9mm "linear excursion" is one way Xmax. In their documentation Dynaudio lists their linear excursion as 9mm "peak to peak." That would make the Xmax only 4.5mm, which seems more likely.


I thought about that but looked at the same spec on the MW182, which is known to be a good midbass though of course it has more cone area. If we can’t trust Dynaudio with specs, I guess we can’t trust any specs.


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## dgage

SkizeR said:


> I'll be using the 8s in our next build, and I just got kevin a set of the 8s as well. Not sure when hes going to install them


Will be looking forward to the feedback and seeing your next build log. Thanks.


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## rton20s

dgage said:


> I thought about that but looked at the same spec on the MW182, which is known to be a good midbass though of course it has more cone area. If we can’t trust Dynaudio with specs, I guess we can’t trust any specs.


As a "sample" for Dynaudio, we can look at the Esotar 430. Erin has Klippel tested two different samples of this driver. Dynaudio's spec sheet lists "Linear excursion, peak to peak" as 4.9mm. I believe in both or Erin's test cases, BL was shown to be the limiting factor for linear excursion. The first test indicated BL limited Xmax at 2.6mm and the second at 3.5mm. Can this data be reliably extrapolated across the entire Dynaudio line up? Of course not, but it is one of the few examples we have of independent testing. 

I know you understand T/S parameters, but for others that do not, the most common methodology for determining Xmax is the "overhang method." The simple equation is Voice Coil Height - Gap Height / 2 = Xmax. This is a simple way to estimate theoretical linear excursion. In practice, measured linear excursion can be less or more, depending on what technologies are employed and how well they are executed.

Unfortunately, Dynaudio does not provide their Gap Height measurement. I don't know for sure if the Dyns are overhung or underhung motors, but the MW172 has a VC height of 14mm and 9mm of linear excursion, peak to peak. If they are an overhung design, it is impossible to have 9mm of linear excursion with the overhang method. If that is two-way, it would mean a 5mm gap. Going to an underhung design would mean a 32mm gap for 9mm of Xmax or 23mm gap for 4.5mm of Xmax. 

Of all of these scenarios, I think the overhung design with a 5mm gap is most likely. And this is right in line with what you see from brands like Morel that also use an "oversized" voice coil. The shared lineage between Morel and Dynaudio also makes me think this is probably the case. Looking at the Morel CAW938, for instance you have a 75mm x 14.5mm VC, a 5mm gap height and 4.75mm Xmax. Right in line with the MW172 which uses a 75mm x 14mm VC with 9mm "linear excursion, peak to peak."

And this isn't about Dynaudio being dishonest. I don't believe this to be the case at all. It is a matter of understanding how they present their published data. Seas and SB Acoustics uses P-P for their linear excursion spec as well. I trust all three of these brands (above many others) to provide reasonably accurate published data.


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## locoface

Utopia and are just tight and snappy midbass drivers very impressive. Currently running the 8WM (and 3.5WM and TBM as well) in the Mazda, but the GB60 is no slouch and takes the abuse with authority. There’s so much to be said but I’m at work. 


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## MrGreen83

Ordered the 3.5 mids a few weeks ago from SonicElectronics. Never showed up. Called to find out, they only had 1, and were just gonna keep waiting until another one showed up....before they shipped out. No email, no phone call, update, nothing. If I had never called, I would’ve never known SMH! 


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## SkizeR

MrGreen83 said:


> Ordered the 3.5 mids a few weeks ago from SonicElectronics. Never showed up. Called to find out, they only had 1, and were just gonna keep waiting until another one showed up....before they shipped out. No email, no phone call, update, nothing. If I had never called, I would’ve never known SMH!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


well yeah, that's sonic for ya. Support local


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## tonynca

I've had my Focal M 3 way (6wm) set for 8 months now. It took months to dial in by ear. But now every time I go into the car and listen to them I could finally just be completely happy with my setup. These are end game in my opinion.

I think the tweeters are the best thing about the set. Second comes the upper mid-range where things are just so detailed. Whenever I listen to a song that's well recorded it just sounds so 3D. 


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## Elektra

dgage said:


> Glad you’re enjoying your Focals so much. The only thing I worry with the 8WM is that they only have 5.5 mm of excursion. Looking at the similar Dyn MW172 or smaller GB60, they both have 9mm of excursion. It almost seems like they made the 8WM to be more usable in a 2-way (based on the freq chart) instead of making it a midbass for the 3-way set. But I’d be interested in hearing anyone‘s experience that has them.


I run the 6w3 midbass drivers from the kit 7’s - if I compare the frequency response and the loudness it plays at say 60hz - the 8WM is like 9DB louder according to the Focal graph - that’s a very significant response - I like my 6w3’s I think they perform really well but if the graph is accurate the 8WM should be amazing... I would worry about excursion the 6W3’s aren’t that impressive on paper but they perform extremely well - I don’t really find them to be a weak point which is why I haven’t changed them yet - also the steep price has made me postpone the purchase....


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## locoface

Yeah the tweeters are fantastic, the tonality on them are great.


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## Jahuntley79

Do we have a focal rep on the forum?


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## rton20s

Nick Wingate (@Mitsu1grn) shows up every once in a while.


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## Jahuntley79

rton20s said:


> Nick Wingate (@Mitsu1grn) shows up every once in a while.


Thanks!


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## cloudriver2013

Hello guys, i am very interested in the Focal Utopia TBM tweeter, as well the mids 3.5. Can somebody provide a comparison to this drivers?

Brax ML1
Hertz Mille Legend 280.3
Micro Precision 7.28MKIII

The focal TBM provides only 20watt rms in the datasheet, which makes me a little bit skeptical. Ist that measured in full range?


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## Elektra

cloudriver2013 said:


> Hello guys, i am very interested in the Focal Utopia TBM tweeter, as well the mids 3.5. Can somebody provide a comparison to this drivers?
> 
> Brax ML1
> Hertz Mille Legend 280.3
> Micro Precision 7.28MKIII
> 
> The focal TBM provides only 25watt rms in the datasheet, which makes me a little bit skeptical. Ist that measured in full range?


With a crossover you can push plenty power into them - but if you setting them up correctly you won’t even use 25rms on them... 


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## cloudriver2013

Will run full active with a DSP. Probably crossover around 2500-3000hz.


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## ChaseUTB

cht08 said:


> I'd gladly demo them for anyone in the metro Atlanta GA area...


I am local & Would love to hear them! I run Audiofrog GB on Zapco AP. What amps and DSP do you run?


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## Loud Residence

I to have the es165kx3 in my truck and after listening to those I really liked the sound especially when listening to heavy rock music but then heard the focal utopia M 3 way set up in a different truck. I will say they are both different. The utopia m speakers were so amazing like nothing I've ever heard. The clearest sound almost like you're in space (can't explain it in words). But after listening to them with all kinds of different music the heavy type songs didn't quite keep that sound when played loud like the es165kx3 do. but still much better than anything I have ever heard. He ran them with mosconi amplifiers and a dsp. If I had the money and a really good installer that is qualified to install the focal utopia M speakers I would, without question, go for it. This may sound weird but the focal flax 3 ways are more of a closer sound to the Utopias than the kx3 are. No where near close but in sound at low levels. Just my opinion


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## zak

PLEASE VOTE!

KX3 vs. 6WM+TBM - so a 3 way Kevlar vs 2 way Utopia M???

I have a 2019 Honda Accord Sport, which has a factory 2 way system. I have kx3's from the previous car, so I would have to fabricate the pillar to get the midrange installed. Or, I could just go with a 2 way. Would the 2 way Utopia M speakers surpass the three speakers of the KX3? I have the JL Audio Fix+VX800/8i. I listen to all variations of rock music, but no rap.
Let me know what you think!

Dave


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## Elektra

zak said:


> PLEASE VOTE!
> 
> KX3 vs. 6WM+TBM - so a 3 way Kevlar vs 2 way Utopia M???
> 
> I have a 2019 Honda Accord Sport, which has a factory 2 way system. I have kx3's from the previous car, so I would have to fabricate the pillar to get the midrange installed. Or, I could just go with a 2 way. Would the 2 way Utopia M speakers surpass the three speakers of the KX3? I have the JL Audio Fix+VX800/8i. I listen to all variations of rock music, but no rap.
> Let me know what you think!
> 
> Dave


The new KRX are supposed to be nice - never heard them - between the universe mentioned speakers I would say Utopia based on the fact the Kit 7 sounded much better than the KX3’s (old ones) so no reason the new Ms won’t do the same iro 2 or 3 way

If I couldn’t afford the M’s I would get the lower version Utopia’s model escapes me... 


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## MrGreen83

zak said:


> PLEASE VOTE!
> 
> KX3 vs. 6WM+TBM - so a 3 way Kevlar vs 2 way Utopia M???
> 
> I have a 2019 Honda Accord Sport, which has a factory 2 way system. I have kx3's from the previous car, so I would have to fabricate the pillar to get the midrange installed. Or, I could just go with a 2 way. Would the 2 way Utopia M speakers surpass the three speakers of the KX3? I have the JL Audio Fix+VX800/8i. I listen to all variations of rock music, but no rap.
> Let me know what you think!
> 
> Dave


I’m currently doing a build on a 2019 Accord Touring. Gonna follow your progress! 


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## zak

MrGreen83 said:


> I’m currently doing a build on a 2019 Accord Touring. Gonna follow your progress!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right now, I plan to put the KX3 tweeter in the stock sail panel location and the mid in the pillar. However, if I do a 2 way utopia, then I would probably put the Utopia tweeter in the pillar or modify the sail panel to handle that big tweeter. What are you doing for your build?
Dave


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## zak

zak said:


> PLEASE VOTE!
> 
> KX3 vs. 6WM+TBM - so a 3 way Kevlar vs 2 way Utopia M???
> 
> I have a 2019 Honda Accord Sport, which has a factory 2 way system. I have kx3's from the previous car, so I would have to fabricate the pillar to get the midrange installed. Or, I could just go with a 2 way. Would the 2 way Utopia M speakers surpass the three speakers of the KX3? I have the JL Audio Fix+VX800/8i. I listen to all variations of rock music, but no rap.
> Let me know what you think!
> 
> Dave


Bump...just wanted to make sure it's seen on page 19 here. Please vote


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## Mullings

Ok gentlemen , after having these 8wm’s for a month or so I wasn’t in a rush to put them in, better yet I was gonna save them for my other car because I’m extremely happy with my dynaudio mw182’s but a friend of mine from Jamaica kept on forcing me to at least try them to see what their short comings would’ve been, he called me yesterday for an update so I decided to give them a shot and did the swap. Right off the bat they were more than twice as loud as the dyns with the dyn tune but the midbass wasn’t muddy it was just louder and I could tell that there was a peak somewhere but decided to mess with it another time because I was tired, anyways this evening after work I decided to eq them for an official feedback and after flattening the old eq I only needed 4filters for the Left and 5 for the right for a smooth 1/6 octave playing from 60hz-280hz then leaned back for a listen. Holy **** they’re good sorry excellent, these aren’t speakers they’re instruments, just pure dynamic non colored precise and hard hitting midbass that blended with the subs and mids so well it’s like they’re not there, there no artifacts of any kind added to the sound by the speaker that make it sound like apart of the music like almost every other midbass I’ve used just pure crystal clear undistorted midbass . I’ve owned and listened to practically every midbass available on the market and these are by far the best I’ve ever listened to, I’ve never listened to this new setup past half volume but right now my ears are ringing from listening to it at almost max volume, I can’t believe that just switching midbass drivers could make such a huge difference. Bottom line, if you want excellent midbass just get these, if you think your midbass sounds good find a car that’s using these to demo, you’ll realize how much extra stuff your speaker is adding to the sound.


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## Stycker

Kevin, I can't even imagine your car sounding any better.


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## Mullings

Stycker said:


> Kevin, I can't even imagine your car sounding any better.


I’ll definitely be at any meca competition in your area so You can come down a take a listen, the thing about it is I never had a problem with my midbass, I was ready for the sq season with what I had till this happened so it leaves me to wonder how better the subs are than my 12w6v3’s


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## SkizeR

Stycker said:


> Kevin, I can't even imagine your car sounding any better.


It currently sounds really good. But when you listen to it you can tell it hasn't even reached its full potential. I think his next move is full sound treatment on all panels, reduce vibration and resonance to nothing. Not that there's a lot, but it's there. Couple that with some slight changes in the install and it'll honestly be next level sick. Oh, also his subs stick out like a sore thumb. I never liked the w6. They are great for your average or even above average consumer, but I don't think they blend with a pure sq system like Kevin's. They just stand out. COME ON BIG DADDY KEV, LETS YANK EM OUT

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## K-pop sucks

My take is that they are over priced for that 1% jump that the Beryllium tweeter gives over the competition.


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## Mullings

SkizeR said:


> It currently sounds really good. But when you listen to it you can tell it hasn't even reached its full potential. I think his next move is full sound treatment on all panels, reduce vibration and resonance to nothing. Not that there's a lot, but it's there. Couple that with some slight changes in the install and it'll honestly be next level sick. Oh, also his subs stick out like a sore thumb. I never liked the w6. They are great for your average or even above average consumer, but I don't think they blend with a pure sq system like Kevin's. They just stand out. COME ON BIF DADDY KEV, LETS YANK EM OUT
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


You haven’t heard them since the adjustment, your in for o super surprise Monday, now the only localizing is the director that I never secure and the some light that I already took out last night


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## MrGreen83

zak said:


> Right now, I plan to put the KX3 tweeter in the stock sail panel location and the mid in the pillar. However, if I do a 2 way utopia, then I would probably put the Utopia tweeter in the pillar or modify the sail panel to handle that big tweeter. What are you doing for your build?
> Dave


Sorry, just saw ur message. I went with GB60’s in the doors, Gladen Aerospace tweets in sail panel, Aerospace midrange in pillars. GS62’s in rear shelf, GB12’s in trunk. Two Mosconi Pro 5|30’s for amplification 

GB10 & GB25 for center channel. Sony XM-GS4 for those. Helix DSP Ultra for processing. 


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## locoface

SkizeR said:


> It currently sounds really good. But when you listen to it you can tell it hasn't even reached its full potential. I think his next move is full sound treatment on all panels, reduce vibration and resonance to nothing. Not that there's a lot, but it's there. Couple that with some slight changes in the install and it'll honestly be next level sick. Oh, also his subs stick out like a sore thumb. I never liked the w6. They are great for your average or even above average consumer, but I don't think they blend with a pure sq system like Kevin's. They just stand out. COME ON BIF DADDY KEV, LETS YANK EM OUT
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Do eeeet 


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## SkizeR

K-pop sucks said:


> My take is that they are over priced for that 1% jump that the Beryllium tweeter gives over the competition.


Your take is irrelevant as you wouldn't know lol

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## dgage

Ok Mullings. So you’re saying they’re better than the ZR800s and MW182s as well, assuming you’ve heard those? Mighty praise there.


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## locoface

dgage said:


> Ok Mullings. So you’re saying they’re better than the ZR800s and MW182s as well, assuming you’ve heard those? Mighty praise there.


It’s a solid performer, love mine. 


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## Mullings

dgage said:


> Ok Mullings. So you’re saying they’re better than the ZR800s and MW182s as well, assuming you’ve heard those? Mighty praise there.


Owned both and mw172 and audio development sw800, The most impact I’ve ever heard from midbass is acoustic elegance 12” in a IB kick panel then illusion audio C10 in another IB kick panel but thinking back on all those midbass with all that output and impact compared to these I realize that there has to be what I referred to as added artifacts to the sound that sounds like it’s a part of the midbass note being played, these are different, just pure sound no additives,I’m one of the biggest dyn fanboy but I’m not married to no brand, if something is better imo I’m getting it and imo these are the best midbass I’ve ever listened to


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## K-pop sucks

I ran a cost for the two most sought after Flagships speakers on the market: DYNAUDIO ESOTAR 2 LINE & FOCAL UTOPIA M LINE. PRICES FROM THE INTERWEBS.

My dream & setup arguably with the most potential would be a FOCAL TBM tweeter, paired with Accuton C100AM-04-730 MID RANGE & C165AM-04-770 WOOFER.

SEPERATE:
E110 NEW:$600 Retail: $1,999.99
E650 NEW:$650 Retail: $1,499.99
E430 NEW:$750 Retail: $1,799.99

CROSSOVER:

3-way crossover PASSIVE: $999x2 NEW

2-way crossover PASSIVE: $650 - PAIR NEW

$250x2 =$500 - 3 way active crossover

$1750 drivers

SET:
TBM TWEETER NEW Retail: $1,999.99
6WM MID/WOOFER NEW Retail: $1,699.99
2 way CROSSOVERPAIR - NEW

$1000 SET

3.5WM $550 OPEN BOX Retail: $699.99

$1550 drivers

$250x2 =$500 - 3 way active crossover


----------



## SkizeR

K-pop sucks said:


> I ran a cost for the two most sought after Flagships speakers on the market: DYNAUDIO ESOTAR 2 LINE & FOCAL UTOPIA M LINE. PRICES FROM THE INTERWEBS.
> 
> My dream & setup arguably with the most potential would be a FOCAL TBM tweeter, paired with Accuton C100AM-04-730 MID RANGE & C165AM-04-770 WOOFER.
> 
> SEPERATE:
> E110 NEW:$600 Retail: $1,999.99
> E650 NEW:$650 Retail: $1,499.99
> E430 NEW:$750 Retail: $1,799.99
> 
> CROSSOVER:
> 
> 3-way crossover PASSIVE: $999x2 NEW
> 
> 2-way crossover PASSIVE: $650 - PAIR NEW
> 
> $250x2 =$500 - 3 way active crossover
> 
> $1750 drivers
> 
> SET:
> TBM TWEETER NEW Retail: $1,999.99
> 6WM MID/WOOFER NEW Retail: $1,699.99
> 2 way CROSSOVERPAIR - NEW
> 
> $1000 SET
> 
> 3.5WM $550 OPEN BOX Retail: $699.99
> 
> $1550 drivers
> 
> $250x2 =$500 - 3 way active crossover


Lot of worrying about equipment for someone without a dsp lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## K-pop sucks

SkizeR said:


> Lot of worrying about equipment for someone without a dsp lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


You lost me. I use the DSP on my DAP before transfer over USB.

I would never use an external DSP other than analogue DSP due to degrading the signal path by resampling and converting a file multiple times for no benefit.


----------



## mattkim1337

K-pop sucks said:


> You lost me. I use the DSP on my DAP before transfer over USB.
> 
> I would never use an external DSP other than analogue DSP due to degrading the signal path by resampling and converting a file multiple times for no benefit.


The octave wide null in your lower midrange from lack of time delay would say otherwise... That's only one thing in a laundry list that you're missing out on buddy


----------



## K-pop sucks

mattkim1337 said:


> The octave wide null in your lower midrange from lack of time delay would say otherwise... That's only one thing in a laundry list that you're missing out on buddy


I have and am using time delay for months and acknowledged this. I don't get why you people on here can't read and keep beating a dead horse.


----------



## miniSQ

Mullings said:


> Owned both and mw172 and audio development sw800, The most impact I’ve ever heard from midbass is acoustic elegance 12” in a IB kick panel then illusion audio C10 in another IB kick panel but thinking back on all those midbass with all that output and impact compared to these I realize that there has to be what I referred to as added artifacts to the sound that sounds like it’s a part of the midbass note being played, these are different, just pure sound no additives,I’m one of the biggest dyn fanboy but I’m not married to no brand, if something is better imo I’m getting it and imo these are the best midbass I’ve ever listened to


how would you compare the GB60 to the Focal Focal Utopia 165W-XP?


----------



## Mullings

miniSQ said:


> how would you compare the GB60 to the Focal Focal Utopia 165W-XP?


I’ve never worked with that speaker so I don’t know, dynoguy had that speaker I think and I can’t remember what model morel for his setup and we used the morel so I never had a chance to hear it and his car is 3way so I wouldn’t know how they sounded playing midrange


----------



## miniSQ

Mullings said:


> I’ve never worked with that speaker so I don’t know, dynoguy had that speaker I think and I can’t remember what model morel for his setup and we used the morel so I never had a chance to hear it and his car is 3way so I wouldn’t know how they sounded playing midrange


I am looking for it to be a midbass driver. Am thinking about the GB60 to go with my BG25 and GB10, but $900 vs $465 has me looking at the used Focal.


----------



## Mullings

miniSQ said:


> I am looking for it to be a midbass driver. Am thinking about the GB60 to go with my BG25 and GB10, but $900 vs $465 has me looking at the used Focal.


I’ve heard a pair of peerless sls 6.5” in someone’s car and those are some serious midbass drivers, I would definitely try those


----------



## miniSQ

Mullings said:


> I’ve heard a pair of peerless sls 6.5” in someone’s car and those are some serious midbass drivers, I would definitely try those


Cool. $900 to $500 and now down to $100. I thought you were a fan of the focal utopias?


----------



## mattkim1337

miniSQ said:


> how would you compare the GB60 to the Focal Focal Utopia 165W-XP?


The woofer of the WXP is an odd ball out from the rest of the Utopia M series stand alone speakers. It is a traditional cone mid and doesn't have the inverted M shaped cone (which increases off axis response). I use the WXP woofer in my rear doors and it unfortunately doesn't play above 2-2.5k (which is typical beaming for a 6 inch mid). That leaves a hole in the response at around 2.5k since it can't quite meet the tweeter. Subjectively, the set sounds very clean and detailed, but as a dedicated midbass, the GB60 is better than the WXP, no question. I'm using the GB60 as my front midbass over the Utopia 6WM midbass (not necessarily because it's a better overall speaker, but because it fits my intended application better).


----------



## Mullings

miniSQ said:


> Cool. $900 to $500 and now down to $100. I thought you were a fan of the focal utopias?


Lol, certainly not a fan, if I’m looking for a pure midbass 6.5” I wouldn’t use a gb60, I’m not sure if the person that’s using that peerless driver is reading this but he’s certainly no fool to this game and the midbass in his car is insane, I’m pretty sure that if all the bandwagonists knows who I’m talking about they’ll go stock up on those peerless woofers lol because that person is one of if not the smartest guy on this forum


----------



## bertholomey

K-pop sucks said:


> You lost me. I use the DSP on my DAP before transfer over USB.
> 
> I would never use an external DSP other than analogue DSP due to degrading the signal path by resampling and converting a file multiple times for no benefit.


Hmmmm - you may not have that right - if you are outputting signal out of the DAP via USB, you are typically not utilizing the DSP within the DAP 

If you are outputting the signal via analog out of the DAP, you are using the DSP within the DAP. That is what I’m doing in my car to utilize the DSP within the A&K DAP I’m using. 

Not sure you would be able to perceive the sound quality degradation of resampling and converting a file in a blind test. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## tonynca

K-pop sucks said:


> My take is that they are over priced for that 1% jump that the Beryllium tweeter gives over the competition.


I don't know how someone could hang out on an audio forum for a good while now and is still the same person that entered on day 1. Face palm...

Don't let this troll dilute our productive discussion guys. Ignore.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca

Mullings said:


> I’ll definitely be at any meca competition in your area so You can come down a take a listen, the thing about it is I never had a problem with my midbass, I was ready for the sq season with what I had till this happened so it leaves me to wonder how better the subs are than my 12w6v3’s


Have you heard Esotar 1200 in a 2cu ft sealed? I haven't experienced all SQ subs out there but I'm pretty settled on how well these blend into my current setup. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

tonynca said:


> Have you heard Esotar 1200 in a 2cu ft sealed? I haven't experienced all SQ subs out there but I'm pretty settled on how well these blend into my current setup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Love that sub, we did 2 in a Cadillac and man those subs dig deep while staying clean, I think I’m gonna try the Utopia M subs because we might never get a feedback on them otherwise and if I don’t like them then I’ll just put them with the rest of my collection, rainstar I might be catching up to you lol.


----------



## miniSQ

Mullings said:


> Lol, certainly not a fan, if I’m looking for a pure midbass 6.5” I wouldn’t use a gb60, I’m not sure if the person that’s using that peerless driver is reading this but he’s certainly no fool to this game and the midbass in his car is insane, I’m pretty sure that if all the bandwagonists knows who I’m talking about they’ll go stock up on those peerless woofers lol because that person is one of if not the smartest guy on this forum


haha...i order a pair earlier today. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Mullings

miniSQ said:


> haha...i order a pair earlier today. Thanks for the heads up.


You got nothing to loose, when I heard them I thought they were Prototypes for the owner till he told me what they were.


----------



## zak

I'm guessing the Peerless would be purely for a 3-way setup. I'm looking to consider what I can do for a 2-way setup in my 2019 Honda Accord. Right now, I'm thinking Focal 6WM and TBM if I can find the right price. Anyone have any other 2-way components to suggest?

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## Mullings

zak said:


> I'm guessing the Peerless would be purely for a 3-way setup. I'm looking to consider what I can do for a 2-way setup in my 2019 Honda Accord. Right now, I'm thinking Focal 6WM and TBM if I can find the right price. Anyone have any other 2-way components to suggest?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


 gb60 is one of the best for a 2 way so look into that also I’ve never heard the 6wm but there doubt it’s as impressive as the rest of the M line


----------



## SkizeR

zak said:


> I'm guessing the Peerless would be purely for a 3-way setup. I'm looking to consider what I can do for a 2-way setup in my 2019 Honda Accord. Right now, I'm thinking Focal 6WM and TBM if I can find the right price. Anyone have any other 2-way components to suggest?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


Yes, the peerless is not good after 500hz or so. Also, its a low Q driver from what I remember so while it will have a ton of mideast capability, it'll be tricky to get sounding right

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> Yes, the peerless is not good after 500hz or so. Also, its a low Q driver from what I remember so while it will have a ton of mideast capability, it'll be tricky to get sounding right
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## miniSQ

SkizeR said:


> Yes, the peerless is not good after 500hz or so. Also, its a low Q driver from what I remember so while it will have a ton of mideast capability, it'll be tricky to get sounding right
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Fs 42 and qts is 35. vs 58 and 64 on my current GS690's. I'm just looking for a project


----------



## zak

It would be cool if someone had experience with the Focal 6WM+TBM vs AF GB60+GB15 and could comment. Seems like there's fans of both brands.

Dave


----------



## Elektra

zak said:


> It would be cool if someone had experience with the Focal 6WM+TBM vs AF GB60+GB15 and could comment. Seems like there's fans of both brands.
> 
> Dave


Spoke to guy who had the GB15,40 and 60 he changed to the Focal M mids and tweeters kept the GS60’s and he says the Focals are better...

I have not read a review that predated the AF’s over the M’s Tbh...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

Elektra said:


> Spoke to guy who had the GB15,40 and 60 he changed to the Focal M mids and tweeters kept the GS60’s and he says the Focals are better...
> 
> I have not read a review that predated the AF’s over the M’s Tbh...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Elektra! That's the kind of input I was looking for. Was it the GB60 or GS60? I'm wondering if that guy might eventually get the 6WM as well for the midbass?

Dave


----------



## Elektra

zak said:


> Thanks Elektra! That's the kind of input I was looking for. Was it the GB60 or GS60? I'm wondering if that guy might eventually get the 6WM as well for the midbass?
> 
> Dave


Honestly he wanted to change but the midbass drivers where expensive so it was a financial reason only...

Which I don’t really understand because he bought 2 Audiowave Aspire amps but no money for midbass drivers and a proper DSP for that matter - he uses the MS8 - I offered him my Helix Pro MKii for a steal as I was going to upgrade to the Ultra and he said he didn’t have the money...

Strange because those amps he just bought are more expensive than what I could have gotten the Brax MX4pro amps for...

Any rate I prefer my setup over his so I guess it’s setup thing... but I did listen to his AF setup and I was thinking it was not better than my kit 7 setup at the time... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

Elektra said:


> Honestly he wanted to change but the midbass drivers where expensive so it was a financial reason only...
> 
> Which I don’t really understand because he bought 2 Audiowave Aspire amps but no money for midbass drivers and a proper DSP for that matter - he uses the MS8 - I offered him my Helix Pro MKii for a steal as I was going to upgrade to the Ultra and he said he didn’t have the money...
> 
> Strange because those amps he just bought are more expensive than what I could have gotten the Brax MX4pro amps for...
> 
> Any rate I prefer my setup over his so I guess it’s setup thing... but I did listen to his AF setup and I was thinking it was not better than my kit 7 setup at the time...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, hard to figure out things like that sometimes. My guess is that AF sounds good for the lower price point (lower compared to Utopia M), but it's not a Utopia M.

Dave


----------



## mattkim1337

zak said:


> It would be cool if someone had experience with the Focal 6WM+TBM vs AF GB60+GB15 and could comment. Seems like there's fans of both brands.
> 
> Dave


I have quite extensive experience with both sets of speakers. Since I'm bored as hell at home, I'll entertain you... Assuming the midbass in the door and the tweeter up higher in the sail panel/pillar/dash:

GB60+GB15 has the benefit of a lower crossover point (2000Hz) vs the 6WM+TBM (4000Hz). The GB15 is designed to play far lower in order to meet the GB60 where its dispersion is still omnidirectional (around 2k Hz). Having the tweeter play lower can help with avoiding localization of sounds from the midbass when the image pans to far left or far right. The drawback to the GB15 is that it also beams sooner than the TBM tweeter. From my measurements, the GB15 seemed to start rolling off at 10k Hz when it's installed 75 degrees off axis. You could mitigate this by installing the GB15 more on axis to preserve the top end response. From a pure midbass perspective, the GB60 definitely has more output potential than the 6WM. Subjectively, I think the 6WM has an edge in clarity/detail in the midrange (not by much though). 

The 6WM is designed to play omnidirectionally to 4k-5k Hz. I have verified that it does indeed measure up to 4k Hz pretty flat when it's 75 degrees off axis. This allows you to have a higher crossover point with the TBM at 4k. In the case that the 6WM rolls off a bit earlier, the TBM comes with an cup that snaps onto the back of its magnet which lowers the Fs to 280 Hz! This can help you cross the tweeter lower than usual if needed. The upper end response of the TBM is extremely linear due to the same M shaped cone technology which increases upper end dispersion. At 60 degrees off axis, they still measure ruler flat to 20k (pointing them too much on axis may cause too much top end). This actually makes installation easier (they're also extremely flat depth wise (around half an inch only)). Subjectively, the TBM is a superior in detail/realism to the GB15. It's unlike anything I've ever heard. However, the Utopia M set REALLY shines in a 3 way with the 3.5WM midrange covering the gap between the midbass and tweeter, but I'll keep this discussion to 2 ways.

The focals are more than double the price, so that's something to consider as well. Which set you choose really depends on the car, application, intricacy of the install, and listening intentions. They both sound fantastic when installed/tuned properly. The GB's have an edge in sheer output while still staying low distortion. The Utopia's win when it comes to detail/clarity. There is a difference. but it's not night and day. Whew...


----------



## zak

mattkim1337 said:


> I have quite extensive experience with both sets of speakers. Since I'm bored as hell at home, I'll entertain you... Assuming the midbass in the door and the tweeter up higher in the sail panel/pillar/dash:
> 
> GB60+GB15 has the benefit of a lower crossover point (2000Hz) vs the 6WM+TBM (4000Hz). The GB15 is designed to play far lower in order to meet the GB60 where its dispersion is still omnidirectional (around 2k Hz). Having the tweeter play lower can help with avoiding localization of sounds from the midbass when the image pans to far left or far right. The drawback to the GB15 is that it also beams sooner than the TBM tweeter. From my measurements, the GB15 seemed to start rolling off at 10k Hz when it's installed 75 degrees off axis. You could mitigate this by installing the GB15 more on axis to preserve the top end response. From a pure midbass perspective, the GB60 definitely has more output potential than the 6WM. Subjectively, I think the 6WM has an edge in clarity/detail in the midrange (not by much though).
> 
> The 6WM is designed to play omnidirectionally to 4k-5k Hz. I have verified that it does indeed measure up to 4k Hz pretty flat when it's 75 degrees off axis. This allows you to have a higher crossover point with the TBM at 4k. In the case that the 6WM rolls off a bit earlier, the TBM comes with an cup that snaps onto the back of its magnet which lowers the Fs to 280 Hz! This can help you cross the tweeter lower than usual if needed. The upper end response of the TBM is extremely linear due to the same M shaped cone technology which increases upper end dispersion. At 60 degrees off axis, they still measure ruler flat to 20k (pointing them too much on axis may cause too much top end). This actually makes installation easier (they're also extremely flat depth wise (around half an inch only)). Subjectively, the TBM is a superior in detail/realism to the GB15. It's unlike anything I've ever heard. However, the Utopia M set REALLY shines in a 3 way with the 3.5WM midrange covering the gap between the midbass and tweeter, but I'll keep this discussion to 2 ways.
> 
> The focals are more than double the price, so that's something to consider as well. Which set you choose really depends on the car, application, intricacy of the install, and listening intentions. They both sound fantastic when installed/tuned properly. The GB's have an edge in sheer output while still staying low distortion. The Utopia's win when it comes to detail/clarity. There is a difference. but it's not night and day. Whew...


Excellent info - thanks so much for taking the time! I'm open to some day adding the 3.5WB midrange (a year or two down the road) if I go with the Focal. For now, just two way. I listen at reasonable to lower volumes, so sheer output is not my priority. I'm all about subjective, so the tonality and detail/clarity are more important to me - which leans towards the Focals. Plus, it sounds like it's easier installation with the Focals, which I like as well. 

Thanks again,
Dave


----------



## zak

Just to clarify my previous post - I am not all about detail/clarity - musicality comes first. I don't want detail/clarity at the expense of musicality.
Dave


----------



## SkizeR

What the hell is musicallity... lol. Its either accurate, or its not. Let's not make stuff up now for the sake of making our hobby seem more interesting than it is.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

SkizeR said:


> What the hell is musicallity... lol. Its either accurate, or its not. Let's not make stuff up now for the sake of making our hobby seem more interesting than it is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


It's actually not a made up word, and you introduced another word "accurate", which to me is different than detail/clarity. Even accuracy is subjective. Musicality is subjective too, so I agree with that. For example, I've seen folks describe the Focal KX3 as more analytical and the Utopia as more musical. I don't want so much detail that it sounds analytical, but some folks might want exactly that - everyone has their preferences.

Dave


----------



## SkizeR

zak said:


> It's actually not a made up word, and you introduced another word "accurate", which to me is different than detail/clarity. Even accuracy is subjective. Musicality is subjective too, so I agree with that. For example, I've seen folks describe the Focal KX3 as more analytical and the Utopia as more musical. I don't want so much detail that it sounds analytical, but some folks might want exactly that - everyone has their preferences.
> 
> Dave


Accuracy is not subjective. 100% accuracy would be a measured signal that is identical to the input signal in response, distortion, impulse, etc.. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## mattkim1337

zak said:


> It's actually not a made up word, and you introduced another word "accurate", which to me is different than detail/clarity. Even accuracy is subjective. Musicality is subjective too, so I agree with that. For example, I've seen folks describe the Focal KX3 as more analytical and the Utopia as more musical. I don't want so much detail that it sounds analytical, but some folks might want exactly that - everyone has their preferences.
> 
> Dave


What I meant by detail/clarity is the ability to distinguish different sounds in the recording from each other. If the recording contains two sounds at the same time, a detailed system can play those two sounds accurately in space without smearing, or one being louder than the other. If the song is musical to begin with, a good system will reproduce that music as originally intended. What I don't mean by detail/clarity is brightness from your treble or upper midrange being too high in level. That's just annoying. 

Also, the KX3 set is NOT more analytical. You would be far better off using the Utopia M as a studio monitor for recording/mastering over the KX3 lol, if "analytical" is what you're after.


----------



## Elektra

mattkim1337 said:


> I have quite extensive experience with both sets of speakers. Since I'm bored as hell at home, I'll entertain you... Assuming the midbass in the door and the tweeter up higher in the sail panel/pillar/dash:
> 
> GB60+GB15 has the benefit of a lower crossover point (2000Hz) vs the 6WM+TBM (4000Hz). The GB15 is designed to play far lower in order to meet the GB60 where its dispersion is still omnidirectional (around 2k Hz). Having the tweeter play lower can help with avoiding localization of sounds from the midbass when the image pans to far left or far right. The drawback to the GB15 is that it also beams sooner than the TBM tweeter. From my measurements, the GB15 seemed to start rolling off at 10k Hz when it's installed 75 degrees off axis. You could mitigate this by installing the GB15 more on axis to preserve the top end response. From a pure midbass perspective, the GB60 definitely has more output potential than the 6WM. Subjectively, I think the 6WM has an edge in clarity/detail in the midrange (not by much though).
> 
> The 6WM is designed to play omnidirectionally to 4k-5k Hz. I have verified that it does indeed measure up to 4k Hz pretty flat when it's 75 degrees off axis. This allows you to have a higher crossover point with the TBM at 4k. In the case that the 6WM rolls off a bit earlier, the TBM comes with an cup that snaps onto the back of its magnet which lowers the Fs to 280 Hz! This can help you cross the tweeter lower than usual if needed. The upper end response of the TBM is extremely linear due to the same M shaped cone technology which increases upper end dispersion. At 60 degrees off axis, they still measure ruler flat to 20k (pointing them too much on axis may cause too much top end). This actually makes installation easier (they're also extremely flat depth wise (around half an inch only)). Subjectively, the TBM is a superior in detail/realism to the GB15. It's unlike anything I've ever heard. However, the Utopia M set REALLY shines in a 3 way with the 3.5WM midrange covering the gap between the midbass and tweeter, but I'll keep this discussion to 2 ways.
> 
> The focals are more than double the price, so that's something to consider as well. Which set you choose really depends on the car, application, intricacy of the install, and listening intentions. They both sound fantastic when installed/tuned properly. The GB's have an edge in sheer output while still staying low distortion. The Utopia's win when it comes to detail/clarity. There is a difference. but it's not night and day. Whew...


Thanks for this... how far off axis can you go with the TBM before roll off and beaming starts to become a problem. I am thinking of redoing my pods....

Must say the one thing that is consistent with every review of the M’s is how great the tweeter is...

The AF’s are good and if you can’t afford the M’s I am sure you won’t miss the M’s if you have the AF’s - but I think going from the M’s to the AF’s will be an downgrade especially if you are used to the M’s

Also a good option would be the 165W-XP - they use similar tech to the M’s at a lower price point...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mattkim1337

Elektra said:


> Thanks for this... how far off axis can you go with the TBM before roll off and beaming starts to become a problem. I am thinking of redoing my pods....
> 
> Must say the one thing that is consistent with every review of the M’s is how great the tweeter is...
> 
> The AF’s are good and if you can’t afford the M’s I am sure you won’t miss the M’s if you have the AF’s - but I think going from the M’s to the AF’s will be an downgrade especially if you are used to the M’s
> 
> Also a good option would be the 165W-XP - they use similar tech to the M’s at a lower price point...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I found 30-60 degrees is perfect. Past that you may experience some rolloff


----------



## Elektra

mattkim1337 said:


> I found 30-60 degrees is perfect. Past that you may experience some rolloff


Ok cool - does going more off axis help with widening the stage? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## K-pop sucks

Elektra said:


> Thanks for this... how far off axis can you go with the TBM before roll off and beaming starts to become a problem. I am thinking of redoing my pods....
> 
> Must say the one thing that is consistent with every review of the M’s is how great the tweeter is...
> 
> The AF’s are good and if you can’t afford the M’s I am sure you won’t miss the M’s if you have the AF’s - but I think going from the M’s to the AF’s will be an downgrade especially if you are used to the M’s
> 
> Also a good option would be the 165W-XP - they use similar tech to the M’s at a lower price point...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm pretty sure the 165w-xp is just as expensive individually as the tbm driver.


----------



## mattkim1337

Elektra said:


> Ok cool - does going more off axis help with widening the stage?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't know where you heard that, but if you think about it logically, stage width is mostly dependent on the physical location of the speakers relative to your listening position. Angling the speaker off axis will probably make width narrower because you reduce the side window reflection on the driver's side. I don't actually have any evidence for this, it just makes sense physically. Here's a quick diagram that may better explain:


----------



## Elektra

mattkim1337 said:


> I don't know where you heard that, but if you think about it logically, stage width is mostly dependent on the physical location of the speakers relative to your listening position. Angling the speaker off axis will probably make width narrower because you reduce the side window reflection on the driver's side. I don't actually have any evidence for this, it just makes sense physically. Here's a quick diagram that may better explain:
> View attachment 266180


That’s interesting... so firing across the dash is supposed to widen your stage...? Theoretically but in order for that to work you need a tweeter that has a impressive off axis response... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

K-pop sucks said:


> I'm pretty sure the 165w-xp is just as expensive individually as the tbm driver.


Well the TBM is a little cheaper than the whole 165w-xp set by like 10-15% so you get the midbass and passives for 10-15% more than what you would have paid for the TBM alone...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

mattkim1337 said:


> What I meant by detail/clarity is the ability to distinguish different sounds in the recording from each other. If the recording contains two sounds at the same time, a detailed system can play those two sounds accurately in space without smearing, or one being louder than the other. If the song is musical to begin with, a good system will reproduce that music as originally intended. What I don't mean by detail/clarity is brightness from your treble or upper midrange being too high in level. That's just annoying.
> 
> Also, the KX3 set is NOT more analytical. You would be far better off using the Utopia M as a studio monitor for recording/mastering over the KX3 lol, if "analytical" is what you're after.


Great post - thanks and I agree! I have not heard the KX3 or Utopia M in a car, which is exactly why I'm here. I figure you all have much more experience with that than me. For the past 20 years, I've been using Focal's home line of speakers in my car - all 8 ohm, so the actual car lines of speakers like the KX3 and Utopia M is all new to me.

Dave


----------



## Rainstar

Mullings said:


> Love that sub, we did 2 in a Cadillac and man those subs dig deep while staying clean, I think I’m gonna try the Utopia M subs because we might never get a feedback on them otherwise and if I don’t like them then I’ll just put them with the rest of my collection, rainstar I might be catching up to you lol.


I do the things people won't do, so I can keep doing the things they cant


----------



## zak

Elektra said:


> Well the TBM is a little cheaper than the whole 165w-xp set by like 10-15% so you get the midbass and passives for 10-15% more than what you would have paid for the TBM alone...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's been on my mind as well. Would a 6WM+TBM be that much better than the 165w-xp? Is it worth the ~$1400 more? Or, is it kind of the law of diminishing returns? Some folks have mentioned to me that it's not subtle -they say it's a really big difference. Anyone else have opinions on these two options?

Dave


----------



## Elektra

zak said:


> That's been on my mind as well. Would a 6WM+TBM be that much better than the 165w-xp? Is it worth the ~$1400 more? Or, is it kind of the law of diminishing returns? Some folks have mentioned to me that it's not subtle -they say it's a really big difference. Anyone else have opinions on these two options?
> 
> Dave


I dunno - similar tweeter material, profile etc.. guys liked the previous version... I think for the money they should be good. Possibly not as good as the M’s but by how much I dunno


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Rainstar said:


> I do the things people won't do, so I can keep doing the things they cant


Lol I totally agree with that


----------



## marko

Hi all, just recently installed 3.5wm and TBM in my car, it's early days yet and still playing with various cross over points etc, what do you guys recommend? and I'm using the plastic backs with TBM, is it better without for 3way applications then?

Regards, Mark.


----------



## Mullings

marko said:


> Hi all, just recently installed 3.5wm and TBM in my car, it's early days yet and still playing with various cross over points etc, what do you guys recommend? and I'm using the plastic backs with TBM, is it better without for 3way applications then?
> 
> Regards, Mark.


I left the covers on mine but only because I don’t want to loose them and my mids are playing from 280hz-3000hz and tweeters from 3300hz all 24db LR


----------



## SkizeR

Nick Wingate from ORCA recommends leaving the back on


----------



## locoface

"The IAL stands for infinite acoustic loading. Basically, the tweeter has been designed to be aperiodically loaded. It has an open back with an acoustic material that controls the back wave of tweeter. Its one of the reasons the tweeter plays as low as it can. 

The black cup is to be used when you want to use it in a separate area from the midrange. Most applications are going to be custom where the 3" and the tweeter are going to be installed in an a pillar with a custom enclosure. The cup prevents the back wave of the midrange to interfere with the tweeter. It also rolls off the frequency response sooner on the tweeter. "

To clarify what the plastic piece does, per Nick Wingate.


----------



## zak

locoface said:


> The black cup is to be used when you want to use it in a separate area from the midrange. ...The cup prevents the back wave of the midrange to interfere with the tweeter. It also rolls off the frequency response sooner on the tweeter. "
> 
> To clarify what the plastic piece does, per Nick Wingate.


I am confused on your description of the cup. If the tweeter is in a separate area from the midrange, then there's no worry to have the back wave of the midrange interfere with the tweeter. It's probably just me not understanding  
Dave


----------



## rton20s

zak said:


> I am confused on your description of the cup. If the tweeter is in a separate area from the midrange, then there's no worry to have the back wave of the midrange interfere with the tweeter. It's probably just me not understanding
> Dave


The wording isn't the best, but what is being implied is that the cup can be used when the mid and tweeter share a common chamber. The cup creates the "separate area" for the tweeter.


----------



## zak

SkizeR said:


> Accuracy is not subjective. 100% accuracy would be a measured signal that is identical to the input signal in response, distortion, impulse, etc..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


And, you just proved my point - that accuracy is subjective. For you, it's about measurements. Yes, measurements are themselves objective, but your choice of measurements for accuracy is subjective. For some, accuracy is the ability of a system to sound like live instruments or some other subjective listening criteria. Great measurements don't always equal excellent sonics. A tube amp, for example, measures poorly compared to a solid state amp, but many deem music via tubes to be more accurate than solid state.

Dave


----------



## SkizeR

zak said:


> And, you just proved my point - that accuracy is subjective. For you, it's about measurements. Yes, measurements are themselves objective, but your choice of measurements for accuracy is subjective. For some, accuracy is the ability of a system to sound like live instruments or some other subjective listening criteria. Great measurements don't always equal excellent sonics. A tube amp, for example, measures poorly compared to a solid state amp, but many deem music via tubes to be more accurate than solid state.
> 
> Dave


Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Rainstar

measurement is not exact, (chemistry flashbacks here) there is always some sort of uncertainty. take a sample size of 10 of the same amps or speaker, and given the SAME MEASURING equipment, person A B and C will put out numbers preety close but not exact, and perhaps at random chance given larger sample size of products to find one that swings wildly in measurement. 

would it sound good or bad? who knows, temperature of the day/equipment/ a bad sodier/ judges who hate my guts have a larger influence on results


----------



## tonynca

I tried with the cup off and I like it better than with the cup on. You lose a bit of volume from what I remembered but it was more airy with the cup off. This is just my observation. I also took measurements and the roll off was smoother with the cup off. This is just my observation

I urge you to test it yourself on your own setup to see which you like more. If you don't notice a difference then just leave it on. I'm not a fan of do this bc someone said so. Try it and observe with your own ears.

Btw with the cup off the Fs is lower. It's kind of acting more like those deep chamber tweeters. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

zak said:


> And, you just proved my point - that accuracy is subjective. For you, it's about measurements. Yes, measurements are themselves objective, but your choice of measurements for accuracy is subjective. For some, accuracy is the ability of a system to sound like live instruments or some other subjective listening criteria. Great measurements don't always equal excellent sonics. A tube amp, for example, measures poorly compared to a solid state amp, but many deem music via tubes to be more accurate than solid state.
> 
> Dave


Accuracy is not subjective. Accuracy is not absolute, but it is not subjective. Variance in accuracy really boils down to tolerance. How much deviation from the source are you willing to accept? Accepted deviations range from very large (SPL, Loud and Clear) to quite small (reference systems, top competitors).

I doubt there is a single playback system on the planet that is 100% accurate, but that *should* be the goal for sound quality. With today's technology, I don't think it is possible. 

*accuracy* noun

ac·cu·ra·cy | \ ˈa-kyə-rə-sē
, ˈa-k(ə-)rə- \

plural accuracies

*Definition of accuracy*

1 *: *freedom from mistake or error *: *correctness 
checked the novel for historical accuracy

2a *: *conformity to truth or to a standard or model *: *exactness

b *: *degree of conformity of a measure to a standard or a true value


----------



## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> Accuracy is not subjective. Accuracy is not absolute, but it is not subjective. Variance in accuracy really boils down to tolerance. How much deviation from the source are you willing to accept? Accepted deviations range from very large (SPL, Loud and Clear) to quite small (reference systems, top competitors).
> 
> I doubt there is a single playback system on the planet that is 100% accurate, but that *should* be the goal for sound quality. With today's technology, I don't think it is possible.
> 
> *accuracy* noun
> 
> ac·cu·ra·cy | \ ˈa-kyə-rə-sē
> , ˈa-k(ə-)rə- \
> 
> plural accuracies
> 
> *Definition of accuracy*
> 
> 1 *: *freedom from mistake or error *: *correctness
> checked the novel for historical accuracy
> 
> 2a *: *conformity to truth or to a standard or model *: *exactness
> 
> b *: *degree of conformity of a measure to a standard or a true value


Can't believe you're actually bothering to put in effort for these guys lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> Can't believe you're actually bothering to put in effort for these guys lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

SkizeR said:


> Can't believe you're actually bothering to put in effort for these guys lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


The things I mention aren't my opinions, it's just that I've seen many opinions over the years on so many different forums relating to the home audio world. It's amazing how different everyone's opinion is. If you really want to get folks going in the home audio world, just mention break in or double-blind testing and then hang on for a wild ride!

Dave


----------



## zak

Well, I pulled the trigger and ordered a pair of 6WMs and a pair of TBMs. I thought long/hard about the JL Audio C7's at 1/2 the price or less, but the consensus seems to be that these Utopia M's are special. I'll get them next week some time.

Dave


----------



## tonynca

haha JL.... you're just paying for marketing cost

Focal: you're paying for marketing, lots of R&D, clout, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

tonynca said:


> haha JL.... you're just paying for marketing cost
> 
> Focal: you're paying for marketing, lots of R&D, clout, etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


lol. Hopefully, performance plays a part as well  
Dave


----------



## jriggs

tonynca said:


> haha JL.... you're just paying for marketing cost
> 
> Focal: you're paying for marketing, lots of R&D, clout, etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 So, you think JL Audio doesn't invest in R&D? Interesting...


----------



## SkizeR

jriggs said:


> So, you think JL Audio doesn't invest in R&D? Interesting...


yeah, out of all the dumb **** I've read on this forum in the past 48 hours, this is up there with the rest. ****ing hell this forum is really outdoing itself every day


----------



## Bayboy

JL might not be on the same level as the upper Focal tiers, but definitely not a fly by night company nor do they just cobble something together. That's totally rubbish. 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


----------



## K-pop sucks

Anyone running the competition grills?


----------



## drop1

What are you guys using for crossover points? I'll be running the 8s, 3.5s and tweeters


----------



## tonynca

SkizeR said:


> yeah, out of all the dumb **** I've read on this forum in the past 48 hours, this is up there with the rest. ****ing hell this forum is really outdoing itself every day


It seems like every time I see you post you're just becoming angrier and angrier. Chill out bro. It's just a bunch of ppl on the internet with their own opinions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca

jriggs said:


> So, you think JL Audio doesn't invest in R&D? Interesting...


They invest in making mainstream products. They're not really chasing audiophile grade in terms of reference grade speakers. So how far did they really go in RD to find the cutting edge?

Focal takes what they learn from making studio reference monitors and home theater and trickle down into their consumer line of products. 

One company makes speakers for boats that goes boom boom muffle muffle. The other is in a different pursuit. 

Im not a fanboy of any company. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

tonynca said:


> It seems like every time I see you post you're just becoming angrier and angrier. Chill out bro. It's just a bunch of ppl on the internet with their own opinions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't be upset that your comment was criticized for what it is

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

tonynca said:


> They invest in making mainstream products. They're not really chasing audiophile grade in terms of reference grade speakers. So how far did they really go in RD to find the cutting edge?
> 
> Focal takes what they learn from making studio reference monitors and home theater and trickle down into their consumer line of products.
> 
> One company makes speakers for boats that goes boom boom muffle muffle. The other is in a different pursuit.
> 
> Im not a fanboy of any company.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really think you (or better yet, whoever is reading this) have to know that you're speculating here based off of a very narrow range of experience.. this is not fact. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

SkizeR said:


> I really think you (or better yet, whoever is reading this) have to know that you're speculating here based off of a very narrow range of experience.. this is not fact.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Speculation and a narrow range of experience can be fact, if it's correct. You are stating that it is not fact (hence, not correct), which implies that you must know what "is" fact. If that's the case, I'd sure appreciate hearing what you depict as fact. I apologize if you've already posted that and I missed it.

Dave


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## tonynca

Haha I'm leaving this guy's den. He's more toxic than disinfectant in the a-hole. 

He is not gonna have any facts. It's a private company. We could only speculate based their products. His speculation is just as good as yours. Just the diff is that he thinks his speculation is fact. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

tonynca said:


> Just finished my tweeter pods. I admit I made the mistake of not sanding the texture down to level it for a more proper even texture look. However, after seeing the TBM installed in there I like how the pods are rugged to contrast with the TBM's fine machining. I think it kind of pops that way.
> 
> I may refinish them in the future, but for now, I just wanna listen to some music and enjoy the system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice work!

How much does it usually cost to have a shop make custom A Pillar pods for a Tweeter and Midrange?


----------



## tonynca

les_garten said:


> Nice work!
> 
> How much does it usually cost to have a shop make custom A Pillar pods for a Tweeter and Midrange?


It varies. I think $500-1000? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

tonynca said:


> It varies. I think $500-1000?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That;s what I was thinking, thanx!


----------



## drop1

les_garten said:


> That;s what I was thinking, thanx!


Mobile toys will make sails for an f150 fir $400 and pillars fir $1000. They look like this. I think that's fair for what you get


----------



## drop1

Has anyone crammed the m series 8"s into doors, f150 or otherwise?


----------



## les_garten

drop1 said:


> Mobile toys will make sails for an f150 fir $400 and pillars fir $1000. They look like this. I think that's fair for what you get


That's a pic showing the sail and the pillar?


----------



## drop1

les_garten said:


> That's a pic showing the sail and the pillar?


Yes. Tweeters in the sails, mids in the pillars. A 3.5" mid at that.


----------



## drop1

Someone please answer my crossover question. 

The tbm tweeter, how low can it be crossed over? Focal shows great response well below 2000hz but normally we double the fs. I'd like to run it closer to 1600hz but I dont want to chance it until I have more info.


----------



## mattkim1337

drop1 said:


> Someone please answer my crossover question.
> 
> The tbm tweeter, how low can it be crossed over? Focal shows great response well below 2000hz but normally we double the fs. I'd like to run it closer to 1600hz but I dont want to chance it until I have more info.


The lowest I would run is MAYBE 3k-3.5k @ 24db, if you don't listen to loud. If you listen louder, 4-5k. There's a reason why Focal designed their 6inch to play flat to 5k and midrange flat to 10k. The TBM shines in detail when it's crossed higher.


----------



## les_garten

mattkim1337 said:


> The lowest I would run is MAYBE 3k-3.5k @ 24db, if you don't listen to loud. If you listen louder, 4-5k. There's a reason why Focal designed their 6inch to play flat to 5k and midrange flat to 10k. The TBM shines in detail when it's crossed higher.


I have a document Focal sent me


drop1 said:


> Someone please answer my crossover question.
> 
> The tbm tweeter, how low can it be crossed over? Focal shows great response well below 2000hz but normally we double the fs. I'd like to run it closer to 1600hz but I dont want to chance it until I have more info.


I have a document Focal sent me, but you won't like their numbers on it I don't think.


----------



## zak

I had thought Focal designed the Utopia M so that it could be run 2-way as well - which I will be doing in the next week or so - the 6WM and the TBM. I was thinking of a crossover around 3k-3.5k, but not sure about 24db.


----------



## zak

Thanks for that document!

Dave


----------



## JimmyDee

drop1 said:


> Someone please answer my crossover question.
> 
> The tbm tweeter, how low can it be crossed over? Focal shows great response well below 2000hz but normally we double the fs. I'd like to run it closer to 1600hz but I dont want to chance it until I have more info.


I'm running my TBM's in a 3-way, and I have them crossed at 4500hz. 

You definitely do not want to cross the tweeter at 1600Hz...

If you are running them it in a 2-way, with a 6WM, then I would cross it at 3500hz.
6WM = 80 hz - 3500 hz
TBM = 3500 hz - 20K hz


----------



## JimmyDee

bbfoto said:


> As long as you don't need to set your HPF too low on them you should be happy. Their main limitation is excursion. But it's a midrange, and a 3.5" one at that...so, there's that.
> 
> They mate up with the 8WM extremely well, but on the other hand those are a bit excursion-limited as well on the low end. Which leads to matching them with the M subwoofer.
> 
> So what I'm getting at is, I think that the new Focal Utopia M drivers will work really well when used _together_ as a complete system. But it gets a bit trickier if you want to try to mix & match other drivers with just one of the Utopia M's (except for maybe using the subwoofer and tweeters in your existing setup).


I've tested and heard the full set of M's (8WM, 3.5WM, and TBM), and they do indeed sound incredible as a complete set.
No doubt that Focal has hit a home-run with this lineup.

With that said; I am running a total Frankenstein setup for my front stage:

Focal TBM tweeter
Dynaudio Esotar 430 midrange
Audio-Development W800-NEO midbass
Each of these is no slouch in their respective duty.
I would confidently say that the Focal TBM matched with the Esotar 430 is hands-down the best mid/high combo I've EVER heard.

The reason I am using an E430 is because of my speaker placement (I need to compensate for an underseat midbass).
I need a midrange that can play down to 200Hz, and the E430 does it effortlessly.
I found the 3.5WM got a bit_ 'angry'_ when pushed down to 200Hz.

Don't get me wrong; the Focal mid is a fabulous unit... when matched with a full focal kit, and driven within its target frequency.


----------



## drop1

Thanks guys. I'll just have to deal for a while . Im.having my Saul's faced next week and picking up the 8s. The pillars with the mid will cone the following month. I just deal with it for a month. Not the end of the world


----------



## mattkim1337

jimmydee said:


> I've tested and heard the full set of M's (8WM, 3.5WM, and TBM), and they do indeed sound incredible as a complete set.
> No doubt that Focal has hit a home-run with this lineup.
> 
> With that said; I am running a total Frankenstein setup for my front stage:
> 
> Focal TBM tweeter
> Dynaudio Esotar 430 midrange
> Audio-Development W800-NEO midbass
> Each of these is no slouch in their respective duty.
> I would confidently say that the Focal TBM matched with the Esotar 430 is hands-down the best mid/high combo I've EVER heard.
> 
> The reason I am using an E430 is because of my speaker placement (I need to compensate for an underseat midbass).
> I need a midrange that can play down to 200Hz, and the E430 does it effortlessly.
> I found the 3.5WM got a bit_ 'angry'_ when pushed down to 200Hz.
> 
> Don't get me wrong; the Focal mid is a fabulous unit... when matched with a full focal kit, and driven within its target frequency.












This guy knows what's up


----------



## reednatron

jimmydee said:


> I'm running my TBM's in a 3-way, and I have them crossed at 4500hz.
> 
> You definitely do not want to cross the tweeter at 1600Hz...
> 
> If you are running them it in a 2-way, with a 6WM, then I would cross it at 3500hz.
> 6WM = 80 hz - 3500 hz
> TBM = 3500 hz - 20K hz





jimmydee said:


> I'm running my TBM's in a 3-way, and I have them crossed at 4500hz.
> 
> You definitely do not want to cross the tweeter at 1600Hz...
> 
> If you are running them it in a 2-way, with a 6WM, then I would cross it at 3500hz.
> 6WM = 80 hz - 3500 hz
> TBM = 3500 hz - 20K hz


I’d say they are safe at 2300hz with a 24db slope. I’m using the Flax TAM tweeters at 2k without issue.


----------



## zak

Anybody played with a 12db slope on these Utopia M drivers, or is the 24db slope what everyone is using and recommending?
Dave


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

As more and more people are getting their hands on these drivers, I was wondering if anyone had more recommendations or input as ideal volume sizes for the Focal 3.5WM to get it playing the lowest possible (200-300hz range)?

I read through all 24 pages, I saw mention of they are fine free air and another user reported they used 0.02 cuft (which would be similare the GB25 enclosure requirements).

Any updates to these recommendations? How are people running the 3.5wm? Free air, aperiodic, sealed? What volume if sealed?


----------



## les_garten

Bnlcmbcar said:


> As more and more people are getting their hands on these drivers, I was wondering if anyone had more recommendations or input as ideal volume sizes for the Focal 3.5WM to get it playing the lowest possible (200-300hz range)?
> 
> I read through all 24 pages, I saw mention of they are fine free air and another user reported they used 0.02 cuft (which would be similare the GB25 enclosure requirements).
> 
> Any updates to these recommendations? How are people running the 3.5wm? Free air, aperiodic, sealed? What volume if sealed?


Killer question! queue popcorn machine...


----------



## mattkim1337

Bnlcmbcar said:


> As more and more people are getting their hands on these drivers, I was wondering if anyone had more recommendations or input as ideal volume sizes for the Focal 3.5WM to get it playing the lowest possible (200-300hz range)?
> 
> I read through all 24 pages, I saw mention of they are fine free air and another user reported they used 0.02 cuft (which would be similare the GB25 enclosure requirements).
> 
> Any updates to these recommendations? How are people running the 3.5wm? Free air, aperiodic, sealed? What volume if sealed?


200-300hz is too low for the 3.5wm. I muted all speakers in my car except the midranges. No EQ, 300Hz highpass 24db L-R. At higher volumes (around 100db), they definitely distort/bottom out. They sound so much better with a 500hz hpf, which is what Focal suggests. Trust me you don't want to ride on the verge of distortion by trying to push them lower than recommended.

I run mine IB in the dash. But I modeled the speaker and you get away with a 0.2L enclosure IF you use a 500Hz 24db slope. It's far enough away from Fs to not matter at that point. I would still use something larger though.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Thanks appreciate it!!


----------



## les_garten

mattkim1337 said:


> 200-300hz is too low for the 3.5wm. I muted all speakers in my car except the midranges. No EQ, 300Hz highpass 24db L-R. At higher volumes (around 100db), they definitely distort/bottom out. They sound so much better with a 500hz hpf, which is what Focal suggests. Trust me you don't want to ride on the verge of distortion by trying to push them lower than recommended.
> 
> I run mine IB in the dash. But I modeled the speaker and you get away with a 0.2L enclosure IF you use a 500Hz 24db slope. It's far enough away from Fs to not matter at that point. I would still use something larger though.


How would this play if I decided to put these into my A Pillars? The 3.5WM that is.


----------



## JimmyDee

mattkim1337 said:


> 200-300hz is too low for the 3.5wm. I muted all speakers in my car except the midranges. No EQ, 300Hz highpass 24db L-R. At higher volumes (around 100db), they definitely distort/bottom out. They sound so much better with a 500hz hpf, which is what Focal suggests. Trust me you don't want to ride on the verge of distortion by trying to push them lower than recommended.


This is the reason I've stuck with the Esotar 430 as my midrange...

Let's be honest; from a sound quality perspective, the E430 and the 3.5WM are 1A and 1B. Both incredible drivers.
But the Esotar can play comfortably down to 200hz, and in my setup (with the midbass under the seat) I need the midrange to dig a bit lower.

All in all; the new Utopia M line is absolutely phenominal. Anyone who has a full 3-way set would not be disappointed - guaranteed.
I just cobble together a Frankenstein front stage, based on the different drivers that I feel will work best for my vehicle...


----------



## rain27

Mullings said:


> Lol, certainly not a fan, if I’m looking for a pure midbass 6.5” I wouldn’t use a gb60, I’m not sure if the person that’s using that peerless driver is reading this but he’s certainly no fool to this game and the midbass in his car is insane, I’m pretty sure that if all the bandwagonists knows who I’m talking about they’ll go stock up on those peerless woofers lol because that person is one of if not the smartest guy on this forum


Do you know if the Peerless SLS 6.5 was used in the doors of his car?


----------



## SkizeR

rain27 said:


> Do you know if the Peerless SLS 6.5 was used in the doors of his car?


It was

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> It was
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I am interested in putting the TBM and 3.5WM on/in my A-pillars on a 2002 Land Cruiser. I thought I had the solution with the German made pods. But in another thread that was mentioned as not being good for the 3.5's. Can you guys give me some recommendations about what info I need to know to guide a fabricator to do the a pillars relatively well?


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> I am interested in putting the TBM and 3.5WM on/in my A-pillars on a 2002 Land Cruiser. I thought I had the solution with the German made pods. But in another thread that was mentioned as not being good for the 3.5's. Can you guys give me some recommendations about what info I need to know to guide a fabricator to do the a pillars relatively well?


Pick a fabricator that doesn't need the customer to tell him how to do his job

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> Pick a fabricator that doesn't need the customer to tell him how to do his job
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Well, kinda like picking surgeons, you may not know that till you're dead or in this case spent a lot of $$$ and have to do a do over. Hence forum's like this. It's called doing research and being an informed buyer. I can walk into any audio shop and they'll tell me what to buy. Most likely it's on their shelf... Co-winky-dink?

Thanx for your help...


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> Well, kinda like picking surgeons, you may not know that till you're dead or in this case spent a lot of $$$ and have to do a do over. Hence forum's like this. It's called doing research and being an informed buyer. I can walk into any audio shop and they'll tell me what to buy. Most likely it's on their shelf... Co-winky-dink?
> 
> Thanx for your help...


Where are you located?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> Where are you located?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


South FL North of West Palm


----------



## SkizeR

I dont know anyone good in that part of Florida. Willing to drive?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> I dont know anyone good in that part of Florida. Willing to drive?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


 Maybe, how far, California?


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> Maybe, how far, California?


Devine concepts. They're in Naples I think. Adam is the owner. Tell him Apicella sent you

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> Devine concepts. They're in Naples I think. Adam is the owner. Tell him Apicella sent you
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I'll jot that down, thanx. May not be able to do the 6 hours round trip though.


----------



## les_garten

I was kinda hoping I could get some guidance on this from the Utopia thread though.


----------



## SkizeR

If you aren't willing to go a few hours each way for a quality installer, then you're probably **** outta luck. I'd be out of business if I didn't have people coming from over 3 hours away lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> If you aren't willing to go a few hours each way for a quality installer, then you're probably **** outta luck. I'd be out of business if I didn't have people coming from over 3 hours away lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Like I said, thanx for your help. If you didn't want to answer my question, why respond and be obnoxious? I don't really get that. Read my question, I am asking for information so that I can interview fabricators.


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> Like I said, thanx for your help. If you didn't want to answer my question, why respond and be obnoxious? I don't really get that. Read my question, I am asking for information so that I can interview fabricators.


I wasn't being obnoxious. It was more sarcasm, something to laugh at. Guess tone of voice doesn't translate

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> I wasn't being obnoxious. It was more sarcasm, something to laugh at. Guess tone of voice doesn't translate
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I think if you live in New York, go to any Bookstore, find a Webster's unabridged dictionary, if they still have bookstores there. Look up the word Obnoxious. You won't find it. It does not come in the New York Edition...

They figured, Why Bother


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> I think if you live in New York, go to any Bookstore, find a Webster's unabridged dictionary, if they still have bookstores there. Look up the word Obnoxious. You won't find it. It does not come in the New York Edition...
> 
> They figured, Why Bother


lol.. fuggetaboudit


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> lol.. fuggetaboudit


Ohh that's there, it's under the F's!


----------



## zak

Just got my TBMs and 6WMs hooked up. Tweeters are definitely strong. Sorry if it's been mentioned already - just wondering how much break in is needed on these components?
Thanks,
Dave


----------



## rain27

zak said:


> Just got my TBMs and 6WMs hooked up. Tweeters are definitely strong. Sorry if it's been mentioned already - just wondering how much break in is needed on these components?
> Thanks,
> Dave


Strong good or strong bad? Are they on axis or off? Any eq done? Have you settled on the install location?


----------



## zak

Tweeters in the sail panel - not directly on axis - probably 45 degrees off axis. No eq done thus far, just crossovers and levels.

Dave


----------



## JimmyDee

The tweeters can definitely overpower your other components... I turned mine down 2db - I might even drop them down 3db (but I am matching them with an Esotar 430).


----------



## rain27

Measure the response if you can. Otherwise drop the levels and play with the eq by ear.


----------



## zak

Good stuff guys - thanks for your replies! Yep, I had them down 2db yesterday and dropped to 3db today. I think part of it for me too is that I've had kick panel mids/tweets (midbass in doors) for the past 20 years, so having a tweeter in the sail panel is definitely different for me.
Dave


----------



## rain27

The further you separate speakers from each other and the closer some are to you, the more processing needed. Everyone assumes speakers up high are always best these days, but that isn’t always the case. Focal also designs their speakers for strong off axis performance, so a tweeter close to on axis may be a bit much.


----------



## zak

Yep, I'm trying out the sail panel tweeters to see if I like having speakers up high. I've only set distances, crossovers, and levels so far - eq and tweaking will come next. So far, I miss the way the kicks image and not being able to detect where the speakers are located. My legs being there has never been an issue with kicks, and I've always had manual transmission cars. I rarely have passengers, and when I do, I'm not trying to get ultimate sound quality.

I'm going to give it a month or two and work on all the processing and blending. If I end up liking it, then I'll add the 3.5WM to the pillars. If not, then I'll get the 3.5WMs and put them with the TBMs in kick panels.


----------



## les_garten

rain27 said:


> The further you separate speakers from each other and the closer some are to you, the more processing needed. Everyone assumes speakers up high are always best these days, but that isn’t always the case. Focal also designs their speakers for strong off axis performance, so a tweeter close to on axis may be a bit much.


If you are mounting them up in the A Pillar, should you just put them off axis intentionally to take some of the edge off? How much off axis?


----------



## rain27

I’d say try out different locations temporarily and see what you like best, but yes, the a-pillar firing toward each other I’ve had some luck with generally in the past. Depends on the tweeter. I don’t always trust FR graphs from the manufacturers as far as off axis response, but I remember Nick Wingate saying that Focal designs their tweeters for off axis ability.


----------



## les_garten

rain27 said:


> I’d say try out different locations temporarily and see what you like best, but yes, the a-pillar firing toward each other I’ve had some luck with generally in the past. Depends on the tweeter. I don’t always trust FR graphs from the manufacturers as far as off axis response, but I remember Nick Wingate saying that Focal designs their tweeters for off axis ability.


So maybe somewhere between 45-60 degrees off axis range?


----------



## Mullings

At least do a 1/3 octave tune and play then for a few hours then go in with a 1/6 octave tune, when I first installed mine they were sharp, not bright but really sharp then after a about 2 weeks of playing them for about 2 hours a day they got really smooth and ultra detailed, you might have some crazy peaks that need some taming right now so at least put a mic on them.when you spend this amount of money you have to get it right, even if you have to pay someone to professionally tune it.


----------



## les_garten

Mullings said:


> At least do a 1/3 octave tune and play then for a few hours then go in with a 1/6 octave tune, when I first installed mine they were sharp, not bright but really sharp then after a about 2 weeks of playing them for about 2 hours a day they got really smooth and ultra detailed, you might have some crazy peaks that need some taming right now so at least put a mic on them.when you spend this amount of money you have to get it right, even if you have to pay someone to professionally tune it.


I've got a bench power supply and plan to break them in on that. See any problems doing it that way?


----------



## Mullings

Nope, that perfectly fine


----------



## les_garten

Mullings said:


> Nope, that perfectly fine


Thanks!


----------



## zak

That's good info about the 2 weeks for 2 hours/day to get the TBMs a bit smoother. I've got about 4-5 hours into them, and they've already calmed down the sharpness a little bit. That's why I wanted to give it a month or two. I agree about the tuning too.


----------



## zak

By the way, I lowered the TBMs another .5db, and the magic is happening. Wow!
Dave


----------



## Mullings

You should get the 3.5wm’s too, they start out the same way then after the same period of time It sounded very very similar to the scanspeak 12mu’s but has the ability to play higher and works really good off axis. Someone said the tweeters been on axis is not alway better but this is subjective because I prefer them on axis, the Only boost I have is the left tweeter I suspect being almost behind the mid I get a dip at 11.2khz and a 2db boost fixes that otherwise it’s a few cuts


----------



## zak

Sounds good. I'll enjoy the two-way Utopia M's for a month or two and then look into the 3.5wm's.


----------



## rain27

Mullings said:


> You should get the 3.5wm’s too, they start out the same way then after the same period of time It sounded very very similar to the scanspeak 12mu’s but has the ability to play higher and works really good off axis. Someone said the tweeters been on axis is not alway better but this is subjective because I prefer them on axis, the Only boost I have is the left tweeter I suspect being almost behind the mid I get a dip at 11.2khz and a 2db boost fixes that otherwise it’s a few cuts


Plays higher, but are you able to play lower than the 500hz Focal recommends?


----------



## Mullings

I’m playing mine 300hz-3300hz and the only reason why I have then at 300hz is because I noticed that the midbass adds width that I’m trying every possible thing to gain, I even mount the mids wider than the tweeters because I discovered that the mids promote more width but I crossed them as low as 250hz and they sounded beautiful, they’re in really huge sealed enclosures though, about 4 liters that were designed for 6 1/2” mid ranges so that might be my advantage.


----------



## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> I’m playing mine 300hz-3300hz and the only reason why I have then at 300hz is because I noticed that the midbass adds width that I’m trying every possible thing to gain, I even mount the mids wider than the tweeters because I discovered that the mids promote more width but I crossed them as low as 250hz and they sounded beautiful, they’re in really huge sealed enclosures though, about 4 liters that were designed for 6 1/2” mid ranges so that might be my advantage.


another thing to note here is that Kevin (Mullings) doesnt jam on his setup super loud. Kevin is pretty much an old white guy in a middle-aged Jamaican mans body lol. That being said, i have sat in it myself and have cranked the volume with i think 300hz crossovers and didnt notice anything out of the ordinary


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

I suspect the larger sealed 4L enclosure Mullings is using is probably helping out too. SkizeR have you experienced/observed any differences playing them free air vs sealed?


----------



## locoface

I’m at 300-3500 LR4 on mine in dash locations, they take the abuse. Sound great, one of my favorite mids. 


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## Bnlcmbcar

locoface said:


> I’m at 300-3500 LR4 on mine in dash locations, they take the abuse. Sound great, one of my favorite mids.


I moved up closer to Murrieta area, maybe I can check out how they sound in your setup sometime this summer!


----------



## locoface

Bnlcmbcar said:


> I moved up closer to Murrieta area, maybe I can check out how they sound in your setup sometime this summer!


I’m always available for demos. I usually hang out at my buddies shop in Moreno Valley (Audio Systems) for demos. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

Next SoCal GTG be like...


----------



## locoface

rton20s said:


> Next SoCal GTG be like...


Demos outside my car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

Bnlcmbcar said:


> I suspect the larger sealed 4L enclosure Mullings is using is probably helping out too. SkizeR have you experienced/observed any differences playing them free air vs sealed?


So far we only have them in Kevins car, and we just finished a quick dash pod install in a sierra. Unfortunately, apples to oranges. Cant really say. TBH, just model them. an enclosure is only going to effect low-end roll-off


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> So far we only have them in Kevins car, and we just finished a quick dash pod install in a sierra. Unfortunately, apples to oranges. Cant really say. TBH, just model them. an enclosure is only going to effect low-end roll-off


I hate to sound ignorant here... However...

Since I am ignorant about this stuff and trying to learn, what do you mean by "model"?


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> I hate to sound ignorant here... However...
> 
> Since I am ignorant about this stuff and trying to learn, what do you mean by "model"?


simulate them in a box building software


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## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> simulate them in a box building software


Thanks, that's what I thought. I'll make sure my fabricator takes this in consideration.


----------



## SkizeR

les_garten said:


> Thanks, that's what I thought. I'll make sure my fabricator takes this in consideration.


Don't over think it. Its really not that necessary. Just don't do a super tiny sealed enclosure

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> Don't over think it. Its really not that necessary. Just don't do a super tiny sealed enclosure
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


For the 3.5's?


----------



## K-pop sucks

Anyone using the TBE competition grills on Utopia M?


----------



## les_garten

SkizeR said:


> Don't over think it. Its really not that necessary. Just don't do a super tiny sealed enclosure
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


This post of yours is what started me asking these questions. That was about a tiny pod for M's

Pod thread


----------



## dechamagnes

Need advise. BRAX ML 1 ML 2 ML6P vs Utopia M TBM 3WM 6WM. Whats your pick? Looks like their price about the same.

If I would choose Utopia M TBM 3WM 6WM, what is the better setup for option below:
1. helix P six (amp with dsp)
2. helix v eight (amp with dsp)
3. helix dsp Pro 10 channel + (2x gladen XL150C4 / 3x helix G two / 2x mosconi gladen 130. 4). WHICH amp is better? 

lastly helix dsp pro vs dsp 3 which is better for 3 ways active setup?
thanks you in advance for all the input and advjse


----------



## Elektra

dechamagnes said:


> Need advise. BRAX ML 1 ML 2 ML6P vs Utopia M TBM 3WM 6WM. Whats your pick? Looks like their price about the same.
> 
> If I would choose Utopia M TBM 3WM 6WM, what is the better setup for option below:
> 1. helix P six (amp with dsp)
> 2. helix v eight (amp with dsp)
> 3. helix dsp Pro 10 channel + (2x gladen XL150C4 / 3x helix G two / 2x mosconi gladen 130. 4). WHICH amp is better?
> 
> lastly helix dsp pro vs dsp 3 which is better for 3 ways active setup?
> thanks you in advance for all the input and advjse


Well I have everything except for the 6WM I still have the 6W3’s from my kit 7’s... I have the 10WM as well - my setup is basically MX4 + NOX4DSP and Helix pro 2 and Sony and it sounds as if I have hit my limits with the setup particularly the Pro 2 - car sounds excellent. If it where to get any better I would have to change the DSP....

The guy who helped me cover the pods has built a Brax car - 1.1, ML3 and 6.1 with 2.1 as rears with super tweeter (ribbon) he is using the X2400 and X2000 with the Sony hires amp for the rears and super tweeter... I haven’t heard the car as it’s not finished 

So when I picked up my pods the other day he said he wants to test my 3WM’s against the ML3’s - here’s the catch since his car isn’t running he wants to hook up a JVC HU and run the ML3’s fullrange whilst I set mine up full range and only play the mids to compare - well I think it’s a waste of time because I have the GS9 into the Pro 2 off a newer Brax amp .... he is using the JVC internal amp of the HU? 

It should be no contest... I’ll try to do this tomorrow if I can... 

What I can tell you is this listening and tuning my brothers car using the Morel Supremo 6’s and Soundstream Exact 12 off a P80 - I can tell you that setup isn’t on the same field as my setup... the complete lack of detail compared to the M’s is so blatant...

Even the 10WM digs deeper and remains more composed....

The Focal M’s are really awesome setup... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

I would use 2 mosconi pro 4/10’s over all the amps mentioned with the dsp pro


----------



## dechamagnes

Mullings said:


> I would use 2 mosconi pro 4/10’s over all the amps mentioned with the dsp pro


got it!! how about 1x ground zero gzua 6.200sq-plus (4x110watts + 2x160watts) vs mosconi pro 4/10?


----------



## dechamagnes

Elektra said:


> Well I have everything except for the 6WM I still have the 6W3’s from my kit 7’s... I have the 10WM as well - my setup is basically MX4 + NOX4DSP and Helix pro 2 and Sony and it sounds as if I have hit my limits with the setup particularly the Pro 2 - car sounds excellent. If it where to get any better I would have to change the DSP....
> 
> The guy who helped me cover the pods has built a Brax car - 1.1, ML3 and 6.1 with 2.1 as rears with super tweeter (ribbon) he is using the X2400 and X2000 with the Sony hires amp for the rears and super tweeter... I haven’t heard the car as it’s not finished
> 
> So when I picked up my pods the other day he said he wants to test my 3WM’s against the ML3’s - here’s the catch since his car isn’t running he wants to hook up a JVC HU and run the ML3’s fullrange whilst I set mine up full range and only play the mids to compare - well I think it’s a waste of time because I have the GS9 into the Pro 2 off a newer Brax amp .... he is using the JVC internal amp of the HU?
> 
> It should be no contest... I’ll try to do this tomorrow if I can...
> 
> What I can tell you is this listening and tuning my brothers car using the Morel Supremo 6’s and Soundstream Exact 12 off a P80 - I can tell you that setup isn’t on the same field as my setup... the complete lack of detail compared to the M’s is so blatant...
> 
> Even the 10WM digs deeper and remains more composed....
> 
> The Focal M’s are really awesome setup...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


thank you so much. great info for me to make up my decision.


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> I would use 2 mosconi pro 4/10’s over all the amps mentioned with the dsp pro


I dunno about that there is zero noise/hiss the sound is precise yet neutral - bass response is great... 

Because I listen to movie soundtracks they seemed to be recorded at -3 or even -6dbs so I decided to boost all channels by 6dbs I now find myself at the limits of the NOX amp - if anything I would like to get the GX2400 or MX4.. for that added head room.

I am looking at a new DSP called Resolut -T from a Russian company... uses the flagship Sabre Pro DACs - they have 3 versions the T being there top model...

The entry uses the Type of Dac used in the Brax (maybe not the exact same model) but the J version uses a Sabre DAC (higher model to the GS9) and the T uses the highest pro version.

According to some reviewers the lowest version sounds better than the Brax... now it doesn’t have the processing power of the Helix but guys who have used this DSP won’t go back to Helix and Brax...

It’s also a lot cheaper... so I’ll pull the trigger at worst it’s not great and I’ll go back to the Helix...

Let’s see..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> I dunno about that there is zero noise/hiss the sound is precise yet neutral - bass response is great...
> 
> Because I listen to movie soundtracks they seemed to be recorded at -3 or even -6dbs so I decided to boost all channels by 6dbs I now find myself at the limits of the NOX amp - if anything I would like to get the GX2400 or MX4.. for that added head room.
> 
> I am looking at a new DSP called Resolut -T from a Russian company... uses the flagship Sabre Pro DACs - they have 3 versions the T being there top model...
> 
> The entry uses the Type of Dac used in the Brax (maybe not the exact same model) but the J version uses a Sabre DAC (higher model to the GS9) and the T uses the highest pro version.
> 
> According to some reviewers the lowest version sounds better than the Brax... now it doesn’t have the processing power of the Helix but guys who have used this DSP won’t go back to Helix and Brax...
> 
> It’s also a lot cheaper... so I’ll pull the trigger at worst it’s not great and I’ll go back to the Helix...
> 
> Let’s see..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn’t talking about your setup Elektra, I meant the ones op mentioned


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> I wasn’t talking about your setup Elektra, I meant the ones op mentioned


Ahh ok...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Ahh ok...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I I knock your setup I would be knocking mine too, we both use mx4’s, Utopia m, gs9 and dsp ultra


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> I I knock your setup I would be knocking mine too, we both use mx4’s, Utopia m, gs9 and dsp ultra


Nice...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> I I knock your setup I would be knocking mine too, we both use mx4’s, Utopia m, gs9 and dsp ultra


Hey now, those MX4's are mine now 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Rainstar

Trade MX2 for MX4? I feel like I never have enough channels


----------



## K-pop sucks

Jesus, Looked up those prices and I feel sorry for anyone who anyone who dropped that much money on a HELIX DSP Ultra and Brax MX4 pro.

Just go buy a Zapco DSP-Z8 IV II and call it a day!


----------



## MrGreen83

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

SkizeR said:


> Hey now, those MX4's are mine now
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Lol, still gotta do that blind test before I let them go Without crying


----------



## Mullings

K-pop sucks said:


> Jesus, Looked up those prices and I feel sorry for anyone who anyone who dropped that much money on a HELIX DSP Ultra and Brax MX4 pro.
> 
> Just go buy a Zapco DSP-Z8 IV II and call it a day!


I feel sorry for people with half ass systems that from their posts you know sounds like ****, that’s who I feel sorry for


----------



## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> I feel sorry for people with half ass systems that from their posts you know sounds like ****, that’s who I feel sorry for


Sums up my feelings about this forum entirely 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## DiamondFanatic

The nice thing about owning top quality gear is if it doesn’t sound good you know it’s either your install or the tuning... Saves time swapping out stuff etc


----------



## rain27

This isn’t always true. I’ve owned some universally raved about high-end subwoofers, for example, that just didn’t do what I wanted it to. High-end 6 inchers that don’t do midbass as well as you would think. Etc.


----------



## SkizeR

rain27 said:


> This isn’t always true. I’ve owned some universally raved about high-end subwoofers, for example, that just didn’t do what I wanted it to. High-end 6 inchers that don’t do midbass as well as you would think. Etc.


Just out of curiosity, which ones?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## rain27

I don't even want to mention it, but one was the Dyn...you trying to get me banned? 

Most of the "sq" subs are fine, but the ones I've tried just don't have the energy down low that I like on some songs. For most songs they do well and have good upper sub bass performance. But when I'm done with James Taylor and want to hear a Migos track (lol), it doesn't have the energy where I want it.


----------



## dgage

Try SI subs, they have a home theater background so play deep but will also integrate easily with midbass. My 24s play flat to 6/7 Hz in-room and the 18s flat to 9/10 Hz at reference level.


----------



## Ge0

SkizeR said:


> Don't over think it. Its really not that necessary. Just don't do a super tiny sealed enclosure
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Exactly. Thank you. If you highpass the driver well before enclosure dimensions affect response there is no problem.

Ge0


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Lol, still gotta do that blind test before I let them go Without crying


What are you changing them for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> What are you changing them for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I cry a lot about missing my McIntosh’s and I’ve always wanted to try some mosconi zeros so I want to do a double blind test to make sure that I’m not making a big mistake. All the amps are at the shop already so we’ll do the testing before the end of this week because the build ”I’m switching from a 11 Prius to a 15 plug in so new build” Has to be done ASAP. I also have no music right now because I thought my hybrid battery was bad the other day and took everything out so there you go K POP SUCKS now you can feel sorry for me for not having music lol.


----------



## Elektra

The Zero’s are supposed to be pretty good - also a lot cheaper than the Brax.... I would be interested in your findings..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> The Zero’s are supposed to be pretty good - also a lot cheaper than the Brax.... I would be interested in your findings..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely, I’ve always wanted to put a class ab back on my subs because I loved how my old Rockford power 1100a2 played my 13w6’s so a zero3 sounds good for 2 10wm’s, let’s see


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Definitely, I’ve always wanted to put a class ab back on my subs because I loved how my old Rockford power 1100a2 played my 13w6’s so a zero3 sounds good for 2 10wm’s, let’s see


Honestly 500rms is good for those subs if you have 2 you could get away with less...

I love the 10WMs they hold such authority in bass notes without overpowering the setup... 


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----------



## zak

I have a Utopia 27WX sub, and I might be tempted by the 10WM, because I could then have a box less than 1/2 the size of my current box. Of course, for that amount of money, I might also consider the JL Audio 10W6v3-D4 for about 1/2 the cost.

But first, I'm deciding on whether or not I need the 3.5WM's for my setup. The 6WM+TBM combo sounds really good. Of course, everyone I talk to mentions that the 3.5WM really does add a lot to the setup and would really make a difference. I'm starting to think about it - my TBM's are in the sail panel, and I would put the 3.5WM right next to them in the pillar. Anyone have any 3.5WM's they need to unload  

Dave


----------



## Mullings

zak said:


> I have a Utopia 27WX sub, and I might be tempted by the 10WM, because I could then have a box less than 1/2 the size of my current box. Of course, for that amount of money, I might also consider the JL Audio 10W6v3-D4 for about 1/2 the cost.
> 
> But first, I'm deciding on whether or not I need the 3.5WM's for my setup. The 6WM+TBM combo sounds really good. Of course, everyone I talk to mentions that the 3.5WM really does add a lot to the setup and would really make a difference. I'm starting to think about it - my TBM's are in the sail panel, and I would put the 3.5WM right next to them in the pillar. Anyone have any 3.5WM's they need to unload
> 
> Dave


Nothing’s wrong with the 10w6v3’s, I have 12w6v3’s and the blend with the 8wm’s like no other. I’m just curious what improvement the 10wm’s has to off if the rest of the line is so impressive, I’m building the new box .8 cubic feet just in case I don’t like them I can resort back to my 12’s


----------



## dgage

So you’re going to be trying out the 10WM soon Mullings? Then again, maybe I don’t want to know since you’ve already got me thinking about the 8WMs to go with the TBM and 3.5WM. And who knows, I may even get them installed in a couple months.


----------



## zak

Mullings - so, if you're coming from the 12" JL Audio W6, then it will be really interesting to get your feedback on how the 10WM compares. Looking forward to your thoughts for sure!
Dave


----------



## JimmyDee

I definitely want to hear your feedback on the 10WM sub...


----------



## Mullings

Definitely, I’ve changed everything piece of equipment on the system for 1 reason or another but never had a problem with the subs because they play exactly how I want them to and sounds soooo good when they go low but when the 8wm’s took those subs and put them wherever the instrument that is playing and sub frequency is with precision, not in a area but precisely placed and I’m able to crank the subs To levels that I couldn’t do without them getting localized “Something that I couldn’t do with some of the best midbass Speakers on the market“ I started to wonder if the 10wm’s could do something that the JL’s aren’t doing and there’s only 1 way to find out.


----------



## K-pop sucks

Mullings said:


> I cry a lot about missing my McIntosh’s and I’ve always wanted to try some mosconi zeros so I want to do a double blind test to make sure that I’m not making a big mistake. All the amps are at the shop already so we’ll do the testing before the end of this week because the build ”I’m switching from a 11 Prius to a 15 plug in so new build” Has to be done ASAP. I also have no music right now because I thought my hybrid battery was bad the other day and took everything out so there you go K POP SUCKS now you can feel sorry for me for not having music lol.


Sorry for your Prius or Prius sorry for you.


----------



## zak

Mullings said:


> ...never had a problem with the subs because they play exactly how I want them to and sounds soooo good when they go low...


Just out of curiosity (and sorry if you've already mentioned it in this thread), where do you have your subs located in your vehicle?


----------



## Mullings

zak said:


> Just out of curiosity (and sorry if you've already mentioned it in this thread), where do you have your subs located in your vehicle?


In the spare tire well


----------



## Elektra

It’s weird I have never heard a car that had a JL sub and thought wow... 

In fact they all sounded crap... all my Focal sub obliterated the JL anything in terms of SQ... bass output is a different story...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> It’s weird I have never heard a car that had a JL sub and thought wow...
> 
> In fact they all sounded crap... all my Focal sub obliterated the JL anything in terms of SQ... bass output is a different story...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think maybe you’ve heard a lot of W7’s because they’re so unforgiving that you designing a box for them and tune it at say 35hz and the plot looks good and you build that box and it sounds like straight up **** you think to yourself that these speakers are garbage. If your reading this and is about to build a ported box for a W7 and is not using JL’s specs, whatever box building program your using input the box size from the manual and port size and length then adjust the box size and stay with that tuning frequency but don’t deviate too much from it. The manual might say that the tuning frequency is 32hz but when you input it into a program it’s usually in the 20’s. As for W6’s, I love these sealed because they have that smooth low frequency delivery, I hate that punchy bass, it blends super easy with midbass but is just not my taste.


----------



## zak

Thanks for sharing your preferences Mullings - it provides a perspective to the comparison you're about to make with the 10WM.


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> I think maybe you’ve heard a lot of W7’s because they’re so unforgiving that you designing a box for them and tune it at say 35hz and the plot looks good and you build that box and it sounds like straight up **** you think to yourself that these speakers are garbage. If your reading this and is about to build a ported box for a W7 and is not using JL’s specs, whatever box building program your using input the box size from the manual and port size and length then adjust the box size and stay with that tuning frequency but don’t deviate too much from it. The manual might say that the tuning frequency is 32hz but when you input it into a program it’s usually in the 20’s. As for W6’s, I love these sealed because they have that smooth low frequency delivery, I hate that punchy bass, it blends super easy with midbass but is just not my taste.


I just think they perform well at a certain frequency range after that it’s not great... I was given a demo once with 2 15W0’s or 3’s can’t remember and with his demo music it sounded great - then I played my music and I was thinking my single 21wx Focal 8” was going lower than these dual 15’s also the quality of the bass after the initial impression was not that great... it’s weird they move air but don’t hit a low note with any composure...

With the 10WM I marvel at the control of the low end - especially on a piano... 

I have heard 13w7’s , 8w7’s, 15w0’s 10w7’s, 12w6’s and none of them made me think about changing my Focal 8” out...

I was given a demo recently with a 8w7 in a sealed box and off rap music it was properly moving air - number plate rattling sounded louder than some of the bass notes - and this dude was loving this sub... 

I played some orchestral music with 20hz bass with huge dynamic volume changes and it fell on its face... I’ll concede that if I listen to rap and rock I would def look at a JL sub - but for music that plays from 20hz till 80hz’s I would never buy a JL...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> I just think they perform well at a certain frequency range after that it’s not great... I was given a demo once with 2 15W0’s or 3’s can’t remember and with his demo music it sounded great - then I played my music and I was thinking my single 21wx Focal 8” was going lower than these dual 15’s also the quality of the bass after the initial impression was not that great... it’s weird they move air but don’t hit a low note with any composure...
> 
> With the 10WM I marvel at the control of the low end - especially on a piano...
> 
> I have heard 13w7’s , 8w7’s, 15w0’s 10w7’s, 12w6’s and none of them made me think about changing my Focal 8” out...
> 
> I was given a demo recently with a 8w7 in a sealed box and off rap music it was properly moving air - number plate rattling sounded louder than some of the bass notes - and this dude was loving this sub...
> 
> I played some orchestral music with 20hz bass with huge dynamic volume changes and it fell on its face... I’ll concede that if I listen to rap and rock I would def look at a JL sub - but for music that plays from 20hz till 80hz’s I would never buy a JL...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This would be really great if the focals are that much better, I remembered getting a demo and I was able to tell the owner of the car what mids he was using and how certain I was that he’s using class D amplifiers and he was wondering how I could distinguish all of this but what I got wrong was the brand of sub and the size. I though it was a 10w6 but it was a focal 8”, it was very impressive


----------



## zak

Mullings said:


> ...but it was a focal 8”, it was very impressive


I have the 27wx - a little bigger, and it's a very capable sub. Was the 8" in a sealed or vented enclosure?


----------



## Dremgragen

I really want to hear this TBM tweeter now.


----------



## Mullings

zak said:


> I have the 27wx - a little bigger, and it's a very capable sub. Was the 8" in a sealed or vented enclosure?


Sealed


----------



## zak

I'm curious about this Focal vs JL Audio subwoofer comparison. I found a fairly new and barely used (and great condition) 10W6v2 for less than 1/2 the price of a new 10W6v3. I know it's a v2 and not a v3, so I'm not sure how much would be sacrificed? 

I've been using my Focal 27WX, and I know the JL will have more output - just curious about SQ.

Dave


----------



## cloudriver2013

My order arrived yesterday for the Focal TBM and 3.5W. Cant wait to hear this beauties.
Would like to know if somebody is using the Focal Utopia 6WM speaker. Are they worth the money, especially playing in a normal car door?


----------



## zak

I like the 6WM and TBM. The midbass seems very decent. The question for me is - is the 3.5WM worth the money?
Dave


----------



## JimmyDee

Dremgragen said:


> I really want to hear this TBM tweeter now.


They are exceptional... By far, the best tweeter I've ever heard.


----------



## mattkim1337

zak said:


> I like the 6WM and TBM. The midbass seems very decent. The question for me is - is the 3.5WM worth the money?
> Dave


The 3.5WM is the cheapest of any Utopia M speaker but performs just as well as the rest. Low distortion, wide bandwidth into the lower treble. Quite easy to install due to the low mounting depth. My favorite midrange speaker so far.


----------



## cloudriver2013

Fine so far, but what about the performance of the 6WM? Only a good driver or beyond any other midbass drivers?


----------



## SkizeR

cloudriver2013 said:


> Fine so far, but what about the performance of the 6WM? Only a good driver or beyond any other midbass drivers?


Its great for a two way set. Not a midbass monster but still have more than enough for most. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

Mullings - have you had a chance to try the 10WM yet and compare to the JL?

Dave


----------



## Mullings

zak said:


> Mullings - have you had a chance to try the 10WM yet and compare to the JL?
> 
> Dave


Not yet , I’ll keep you guys posted with any work done to the system


----------



## SkizeR

Now that SVR got pushed back until September 112th, he wont be putting that in until after the last week of august lol


----------



## Mullings

So true, but I’m gonna show up with a car with a refined tune this time, no more put together and tune at the show lol


----------



## Adecchio

im a new bee whos been following these topic discussions for a while.
I would have agreed that these Utopia M sets, from tbm - 3,5wm - and 8wm - are in different class like no others.

Ive had these systems installed for just 3 weeks : 
Focal 165 wxp feat mid 3w0251 - front speakers
Focal 165 ps f3e - rear speakers.

and

decided to purchase and replace to full set of Utopia M with TBM tweeter ; 3,5WM and 8WM - replacing the front speakers

And

Transfering the Focal 165 WXP feat 3W0251 to the Rear speakers.

i have had few times listening to a friend's car who has these Utopia M sets installed in his car and was so amazed by its quality like no others.

pricewise are expensive indeed but you get what you pay for.


----------



## JimmyDee

Adecchio said:


> pricewise are expensive indeed but you get what you pay for.


Yes, you do...


----------



## zak

I'm thinking of picking up the 3.5WM's this coming week and installing in the A pillars. I have a 2019 Honda Accord Sport with 6WM's in the doors and TBM's in the sail panel. I'll have the TUN (JL Audio VXi amp) done by a dealer that I trust here in Phoenix, so I'm confident they can do a good job whether it's the 2-way or 3-way.

The Focal folks mention it will be a night/day difference to add the 3.5WM's to my existing setup, and the dealer thinks it's about a 25% improvement. What do you think? 

Dave


----------



## Adecchio

zak said:


> I'm thinking of picking up the 3.5WM's this coming week and installing in the A pillars. I have a 2019 Honda Accord Sport with 6WM's in the doors and TBM's in the sail panel. I'll have the TUN (JL Audio VXi amp) done by a dealer that I trust here in Phoenix, so I'm confident they can do a good job whether it's the 2-way or 3-way.
> 
> The Focal folks mention it will be a night/day difference to add the 3.5WM's to my existing setup, and the dealer thinks it's about a 25% improvement. What do you think?
> 
> Dave


Yes i would have agreed by adding the mid range speakers make huge differences. Let alone the 3,5WM's, other high end mids too make differences.

Thats the reason i have front and rear 3 ways set up.


----------



## JimmyDee

zak said:


> The Focal folks mention it will be a night/day difference to add the 3.5WM's to my existing setup, and the dealer thinks it's about a 25% improvement. What do you think?


It would be hard to put a percentage on what the improvement will be... but I wouldn't argue the 25% figure.
There will definitely be an improvement.


----------



## zak

OK, so I just setup the 3.5WM's on the dash, wrapped with a towel, so that I could work on determining a decent position for a pillar install. I'll say up front that the Utopia M's in a two-way (6WM's+TBM's) do sound really good. The 6WM does a nice job of conveying the midrange and meeting up with the tweeter. Once I added the midrange though, the 6WM became a midbass monster! Since it's only covering 70-500hz in the three-way config, it just really lets loose. For some of the songs I was testing with, I just turned the sub all the way down. I'm sure I'll need to tone down that midbass, once I get the mids installed and start tweaking with it. For anyone thinking about the 6WM, it's pretty strong as a midbass.

I did notice that having the 3.5WM's did fill things in a little more and brought up the soundstage a bit - more solidity to instruments and vocals - and a bit more detail. Overall, once I get them installed and do some tweaking, I think I'll be really happy that I added the 3.5WM's.

Thanks for all of your inputs,

Dave


----------



## DoubleCrown

Iirc “elite dealers” dealers sign up to move X about per-anum. 30k comes to mind


----------



## Elektra

Those who use the 10WM - can you use this sub in a 4ohm setup? I.e. don’t use both coils if you use both coils then it’s a 2ohm setup?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mullings

Elektra said:


> Those who use the 10WM - can you use this sub in a 4ohm setup? I.e. don’t use both coils if you use both coils then it’s a 2ohm setup?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can’t do that, you have to use both voicecoils


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> You can’t do that, you have to use both voicecoils


Thanks - I thought so...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vividi#12

Anyone has compared the Utopia M WM6 vs the Ultima WM6? Just trying to grasp how it can be so expensive.


----------



## Mullings

Vividi#12 said:


> Anyone has compared the Utopia M WM6 vs the Ultima WM6? Just trying to grasp how it can be so expensive.


Elektra had a set for sale, he should have first hand knowledge about them vs the M’s


----------



## Elektra

Mullings said:


> Elektra had a set for sale, he should have first hand knowledge about them vs the M’s


My friend has them - he never installed them. I was trying to sell them on his behalf. 

I too wondered about the comparison - the white paper specs on them don’t really say they better than say the M mids - but then guys are liking the 6WM for midbass yet there FS is really high compared to the older Kit 7 midbass - so I don’t know really.

The Utopia M midbass drivers are pretty pricey and I don’t seem to think the 6W3’s do a bad enough job for me to start thinking of changing them... 

But if I do I would go for the 8WM’s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dremgragen

Really close to pulling the trigger on some Bliesma T25B-6s and still undecided midrange. I keep telling myself to just pony up for the Focal Ms because you guys are making me drool and breathe heavy(er), but I just can't get past spending $1750 vs $530. I can afford it, but that doesn't mean it's a sound purchase. I ran into the same dilemma when I was shopping for headphones in the spring. The price of the Utopias is just a little too extreme so I settled on the Focal Elex (which has admittedly has been a 'meh' experience).


----------



## Mullings

Dremgragen said:


> Really close to pulling the trigger on some Bliesma T25B-6s and still undecided midrange. I keep telling myself to just pony up for the Focal Ms because you guys are making me drool and breathe heavy(er), but I just can't get past spending $1750 vs $530. I can afford it, but that doesn't mean it's a sound purchase. I ran into the same dilemma when I was shopping for headphones in the spring. The price of the Utopias is just a little too extreme so I settled on the Focal Elex (which has admittedly has been a 'meh' experience).


For that much difference in price I would first try to audition both before buying, that’s a lot of money to spend and you might not like the way whichever you choose sounds


----------



## cloudriver2013

Dear all, i have a pair of Focal Utopia M TBM, Focal 3.5WM and Focal 6WM in perfect shape fo re-sale. If somebody has interest please let me know.


----------



## Dremgragen

cloudriver2013 said:


> Dear all, i have a pair of Focal Utopia M TBM, Focal 3.5WM and Focal 6WM in perfect shape fo re-sale. If somebody has interest please let me know.


That didn't last long. Didn't like them? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## cloudriver2013

They sound amazing, but i sold my car, thats the reason.


----------



## Dremgragen

Whenever I buy a new car all my gear goes into that new car. Why not you?


----------



## cloudriver2013

Currently no plans for a new car because of financial reasons.


----------



## soundchoice

haakono said:


> Had some mounting rings for tweeter and mid made on a cnc-router yesterday. Will use these to experiment with placement, and then have metal ones made for the final installation.



Hello, would you sell me those tweeter and mid spacers. I have no way of making those.
Thanks, John


----------



## SkizeR

we can also make acrylic ones on the laser if you are glassing them in somewhere


----------



## Elektra

I can say this don’t use Focals box specs for the 10WM - 18lts is far too small this sub is almost a IB candidate as the box needs to be huge to get it to work properly 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zak

SkizeR said:


> we can also make acrylic ones on the laser if you are glassing them in somewhere


That's great! I would love to buy a pair for my 3.5WM's. Can you show pictures and provide the cost? Or, should I PM you?

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## SkizeR

zak said:


> That's great! I would love to buy a pair for my 3.5WM's. Can you show pictures and provide the cost? Or, should I PM you?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


Pm me. We have made a bunch of them for this driver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## mistaleung

I saw Crutchfield selling a set of TBM, 3.5WM and 6WM at around $4,450 but i heard they sell a bit expensive than others. How much do you guys pay for the said speakers?
And what should be the discounted percentage for these high end second hand speakers?
Sorry, I'm new to the car audio.


----------



## Harley35

Hi all, in a couple of weeks I will receive my set of TBMs and 6WMs. Given my current situation, I’m trying to install all the equipment in the stock placement to avoid being stolen for the second time. Do you think it will work installing my TBMs in the dash firing at the windshield? I have a good DSP to do the tuning but I’m worried that in the end I will have to create custom pods.
thanks in advance


----------



## bbfoto

mistaleung said:


> I saw Crutchfield selling a set of TBM, 3.5WM and 6WM at around $4,450 but i heard they sell a bit expensive than others. How much do you guys pay for the said speakers?
> And what should be the discounted percentage for these high end second hand speakers?
> Sorry, I'm new to the car audio.


I doubt that you'll find these second-hand at this point in time.

Most local dealers in the U.S. will give you a fairly good discount off of the MAP or MSRP price that Crutchfield sells them at...potentially up to 10%-20% off. It usually depends on how many different items or the total $ amount you are purchasing from them.

I'm not sure about dealers in HK and if they will give you a similar discount, though. I'm sure it would depend on the import duties they incur with products sourced from the EU.


----------



## bbfoto

Harley35 said:


> Hi all, in a couple of weeks I will receive my set of TBMs and 6WMs. Given my current situation, I’m trying to install all the equipment in the stock placement to avoid being stolen for the second time. Do you think it will work installing my TBMs in the dash firing at the windshield? I have a good DSP to do the tuning but I’m worried that in the end I will have to create custom pods.
> thanks in advance


It wouldn't be my first choice for the tweeter's location in either a 3-way or 2-way front stage. But you could still make it work if you have a knowledgeable tuner. It can really depend on the particular vehicle though.

If you've got the funds to afford these high-end drivers, I'd assume you can also afford a bit of custom fabrication that would help the tweeter locations to blend-in and look OEM. I think it would definitely be worth the extra expense if it removes the potential for thieves to break into your car and steal all or part of your system.

If it's at all possible to do custom sail panels, upper door install, or A-pillars for the tweeters with a true OEM-look, then that is the route I'd take. I try to avoid any type of protruding "pod" or large, unnatural contours that don't look completely OEM.

You can do a lot to make speaker locations look OEM just by "counter-sinking" them into a panel and using a simple black or color-matched grill cloth over a "factory shaped" grill and/or minimalistic trim ring.

I'm a huge proponent of OEM-look, "stealth" installs. I don't care one iota about "showing off" or "featuring" my expensive gear. I actually want the install to look as dull and uninteresting as possible...seriously "plain Jane", LOL. I'd much rather have myself and others be blown away with how good my "factory" system sounds, and not have to be worried about prying eyes.

While having your stereo equipment stolen is a serious bummer in itself, to me, the potential damage to the vehicle and the time/inconvenience/down-time of the repair and replacement is equally or more of a concern IMO.

Car audio thieves really know exactly what to look for, so if there is ANYTHING that tips them off to the potential of any "special" equipment inside the vehicle, you've lost the battle.

The new TBM tweeters are amazing, but the unique shape of the exterior housing is a "dead giveaway" that they are high-end Focal tweeters, and the odd shape also makes it difficult to simply drop them into traditional, round tweeter locations.


----------



## thedynoguy

Have a set of A pillar's fabbed up for them. They will hide them from the prying eyes of the thieves...


----------



## Vividi#12

Is the 3.5wm so much better than an Audiofrog Gb25 or is just the newest forum boner?


----------



## Elektra

Vividi#12 said:


> Is the 3.5wm so much better than an Audiofrog Gb25 or is just the newest forum boner?


I dunno I haven’t heard the GB25 that much - I did hear it in a BMW with the GB60’s and 2 GB10’s - either the car wasn’t tuned properly or the setup wasn’t that great - it was good but not better than my kit 7 setup at the time - since then that owner changed to the Utopia M’s kept the GB60 due to cost... his own words where the Focals sounded better...

However a guy brought in a Excelsious Mid (the spiderless version) and apparently that sounds better than the 3.5wm... I have yet to listen to it so I reserve my opinion till I hear them...

It’s also cheaper than the 3wm... so I’ll give you my opinion when I get a chance to listen them - same mids in Steve Heads car...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dremgragen

Elektra said:


> However a guy brought in a Excelsious Mid (the spiderless version) and apparently that sounds better than the 3.5wm... I have yet to listen to it so I reserve my opinion till I hear them...
> 
> It’s also cheaper than the 3wm... so I’ll give you my opinion when I get a chance to listen them - same mids in Steve Heads car...


Let us know if you hear those Excelsious mids and your experience, please. I am in the market for a midrange; just undecided between small for ease of installation and high dispersion or larger for more meat and more options to choose from. I don't think 3.5WM will ever be in my price range.

Also there's a name I haven't heard in quite some time. Is he on this forum? I knew him as Audionutz on ECA and remember his Civic and posts about aperiodic chambers as well as the SQ CDs he made from vinyl rips.


----------



## Elektra

Dremgragen said:


> Let us know if you hear those Excelsious mids and your experience, please. I am in the market for a midrange; just undecided between small for ease of installation and high dispersion or larger for more meat and more options to choose from.
> 
> Also there's a name I haven't heard in quite some time. Is he on this forum? I knew him as Audionutz on ECA and remember his Civic and posts about aperiodic chambers as well as the SQ CDs he made from vinyl rips.


I dunno if he is on the forum - I doubt it though. He did a review on them - he said they sounded better than his previous reference mids which was the Scan 12M...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Harley35

bbfoto said:


> It wouldn't be my first choice for the tweeter's location in either a 3-way or 2-way front stage. But you could still make it work if you have a knowledgeable tuner. It can really depend on the particular vehicle though.
> 
> If you've got the funds to afford these high-end drivers, I'd assume you can also afford a bit of custom fabrication that would help the tweeter locations to blend-in and look OEM. I think it would definitely be worth the extra expense if it removes the potential for thieves to break into your car and steal all or part of your system.
> 
> If it's at all possible to do custom sail panels, upper door install, or A-pillars for the tweeters with a true OEM-look, then that is the route I'd take. I try to avoid any type of protruding "pod" or large, unnatural contours that don't look completely OEM.
> 
> You can do a lot to make speaker locations look OEM just by "counter-sinking" them into a panel and using a simple black or color-matched grill cloth over a "factory shaped" grill and/or minimalistic trim ring.
> 
> I'm a huge proponent of OEM-look, "stealth" installs. I don't care one iota about "showing off" or "featuring" my expensive gear. I actually want the install to look as dull and uninteresting as possible...seriously "plain Jane", LOL. I'd much rather have myself and others be blown away with how good my "factory" system sounds, and not have to be worried about prying eyes.
> 
> While having your stereo equipment stolen is a serious bummer in itself, to me, the potential damage to the vehicle and the time/inconvenience/down-time of the repair and replacement is equally or more of a concern IMO.
> 
> Car audio thieves really know exactly what to look for, so if there is ANYTHING that tips them off to the potential of any "special" equipment inside the vehicle, you've lost the battle.
> 
> The new TBM tweeters are amazing, but the unique shape of the exterior housing is a "dead giveaway" that they are high-end Focal tweeters, and the odd shape also makes it difficult to simply drop them into traditional, round tweeter locations.


thanks a lot for taking the time to answer. I will follow your advice of trying to tune it first and in case it doesn’t work will go for a low profile custom Installation.


----------



## phocas

thedynoguy said:


> Have a set of A pillar's fabbed up for them. They will hide them from the prying eyes of the thieves...
> View attachment 275655


I would love to find a magnetic cover like that.for TBMs


----------



## TunezX

My take is, who the heck can afford these???


----------



## bbfoto

Dremgragen said:


> Let us know if you hear those Excelsious mids and your experience, please. I am in the market for a midrange; just undecided between small for ease of installation and high dispersion or larger for more meat and more options to choose from. I don't think 3.5WM will ever be in my price range.
> 
> Also there's a name I haven't heard in quite some time. Is he on this forum? I knew him as Audionutz on ECA and remember his Civic and posts about aperiodic chambers as well as the SQ CDs he made from vinyl rips.


Steven Head is still registered here as a member under _Audionutz,_ but he very rarely pops in to DIYMA these days to post.

I also have all 52 of his "ECA SQ CD" collection from 2008-2009 on the long-defunct ECA forums. It's an awesome collection of music!

There's a post he made here a few years back where he is still willing to share that collection along with heaps of newer music as well.


I'm also considering acquiring a pair of the 3" Xcelsus XXM325 mids as well, just because I'm curious, LOL. G.A.S. ...is a serious disease! 

Hey, if they turn out to be great performers at a decent price and less than the Utopia or other options, what's not to like?

XCELSUS COMPETITION SERIES COMPONENTS


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## Elektra

bbfoto said:


> Steven Head is still registered here as a member under _Audionutz,_ but he very rarely pops in to DIYMA these days to post.
> 
> I also have all 52 of his "ECA SQ CD" collection from 2008-2009 on the long-defunct ECA forums. It's an awesome collection of music!
> 
> There's a post he made here a few years back where he is still willing to share that collection along with heaps of newer music as well.
> 
> 
> I'm also considering acquiring a pair of the 3" Xcelsus XXM325 mids as well, just because I'm curious, LOL. G.A.S. ...is a serious disease!
> 
> Hey, if they turn out to be great performers at a decent price and less than the Utopia or other options, what's not to like?
> 
> XCELSUS COMPETITION SERIES COMPONENTS


The Brax ML3 is a better sounding mid - I heard that mid in a Audi running off a $100 JVC - no external amp no crossover no TA no EQ - it sounded better than my 3.5WM off a $1500 HU and a $5000 amp - under the same conditions 

I recently switched to Brax and I must say it has been a good move 

That Excelsius mid is in a car here but I haven’t heard it yet...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mullings

Elektra said:


> The Brax ML3 is a better sounding mid - I heard that mid in a Audi running off a $100 JVC - no external amp no crossover no TA no EQ - it sounded better than my 3.5WM off a $1500 HU and a $5000 amp - under the same conditions
> 
> I recently switched to Brax and I must say it has been a good move
> 
> That Excelsius mid is in a car here but I haven’t heard it yet...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 that’s the thing about sounds good systems, they’re not the systems that you knit pick, they just have a good balance and “sounds good”, the real question is how does it sound when properly tuned? Isn’t that why we’re trying to get the most revealing equipment to recreate the setting where the music was recorded and deliver it as natural and authentic as the original?Tell me what stood out to you in the car with the brax mids? The answer is nothing special, it just sounds good lol, not saying the brax’s aren’t good but I’ve learned after using pretty much every high end mids and tweeters that all they really need is a proper tune.


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## Elektra

Mullings said:


> that’s the thing about sounds good systems, they’re not the systems that you knit pick, they just have a good balance and “sounds good”, the real question is how does it sound when properly tuned? Isn’t that why we’re trying to get the most revealing equipment to recreate the setting where the music was recorded and deliver it as natural and authentic as the original?Tell me what stood out to you in the car with the brax mids? The answer is nothing special, it just sounds good lol, not saying the brax’s aren’t good but I’ve learned after using pretty much every high end mids and tweeters that all they really need is a proper tune.


Ok so I have had the system installed in my X3 for about 2 years now..

For the first year or so it was the kit 7 then I got the M’s - the car for me always had something not quite right with it. The car was overly detailed especially on “average” recordings. I could never tune the detail out of the car - sounds strange but the car sounded bright to me especially on the “average” recordings - bring a good recording and it sounded awesome. 

The Focals just showed up all the faults - I call it the sound signature that Focal has. Now with the Brax I felt I got the same detail but no sound signature - meaning the speakers sounded completely neutral - the speakers just disappear. It’s hard to explain but I was quietly confident when the guy said to take all your EQ and TA and crossovers off and we can listen to both and hear the difference. I was thinking when he was wiring up the banged up JVC that this was going to be a no contest surely with my Sony GS9, Helix Pro and Brax MX4 is going to destroy the ML3 over a banged up JVC of its own internal amp? 

Sure enough I am listening to the ML3’s thinking WTF! It sounds better than my setup - nothing to do with tuning because there was none...

So I sold my 10WM as I switched to a JBLW15GTI - and the guy wanted my Focal speakers so I sold them to him - bought a set of Brax Graphic Pro’s with the ML3 (actually mine that I sold to him a year ago but never installed them and they where new) for like $1000. I negotiated the 3 way with a Dynaudio Esotar E1200 (also mine before) so I got everything for $1000 

Traded the Esotar to the same guy who bought my Focals for a JL7W13 (because I can and it cost me nothing and I was curious to see what JL is all about - also because over this side Dynaudio is a brand that appeals to such a small market whereas the JL is like everyone’s wet dream here so financially it was a good move as I could offload the JL for more $$’s quicker than I could with the Dyn) 

I installed the Brax without the ML3 because the Brax tweeter was to big for the TBM location so I had to install the tweeter in the 3.5wm location so I am currently using just the 2 way. 

Off the bat with just some level matching the Brax immediately sounded better - all the issues I had before where gone no brightness all the detail and completely neutral. 

I was thinking before that the Brax MX4 was just to clinical and dry and that’s why I could never get the Focals right. I was considering looking for a warmer sounding amp for to replace the MX4.

It seems to me that the MX4 and the Brax speakers are a match made in heaven the amp was complimenting the speakers - completely neutral no signature no anything just HIFI for your car. Honestly I have never been happier - I started tuning the car so I have done the left side so far and listening to the left side tuned vs the right side untuned I could hear the car jumped another level - the same tuning on the Focals made them sound worse but for the Brax it made them sound better. 

Honestly I never thought I would say this but the only thing I liked of the Focals was the TBM tweeter but everything else I could never get right....


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## bbfoto

^Well, I do agree that some speakers just sound much better, "just right", or "more natural" right out of the box compared to others.

I still really like the Scan 12MU, 12M and 15M for their "out of the box" natural sound. And the Satori MR13P as well...really nice. They all still have a varying bit of upper mid presence, but it's just a bit and can easily be dialed in with use of XO/passband/EQ. The detail is still there, but it is presented in a pleasing, realistic, and natural way.

I'm currently using the Utopia 3.5WM in an install combined with the tiny Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters in smallish, stealth sail panel pods. I chose this particular combination because I really wanted to fit both drivers vertically-aligned in OEM-look, non-protruding sail panel pods.

I've used the GB25 combined with the Aerospace 20 tweeter in this application for it's small form-factor as well, and it's a really nice combination. But generally I've found that I prefer slightly larger diameter midrange drivers, and was interested in seeing (hearing) what the new Utopia 3.5WM had to offer.

The Utopia "wows" because it just seems to be such a "detail machine". It _seems_ really fast, dynamic, detailed, and "airy", but my impression after having spent some time with it is that it's sort of an unnatural presentation...

I guess I would describe it as somewhat "forced" detail and dynamics, or IDK, maybe "unnaturally analytical"?

I'd really like to have Erin test these to see what's going on if he'd be interested in doing that. One of my thoughts is that back wave reflections depending on the enclosure or mounting scheme are more of a issue with these and may be influencing the sound more than other designs. IDK

I'd probably be using the 12MU, but I settled on the 3.5WM because ultimately I wanted the sail panel pods to blend-in, not protrude, and be "OEM" stealth, and that just wasn't possible with the 12MU, 12M, Dyn E2 430, nor the MR13P.

This is why I've been so interested in the new Audison TH 3.0 II Voce 3" midrange. But Fook Me!...that price is just ridonculous!

There are no top of dash OEM locations in this vehicle, and I'm not willing to do severe mods a' la Erin's Civic dash. But gawd, I so wish that Purifi PTT4.0W04 4" mid was a smaller form-factor neo-motor driver, as that might have persuaded me to actually do the "ErinH dash mod", haha, or at least be okay with slightly larger sail panel pods.

Obviously, proper tuning can do A LOT to tame the response and character of ANY given speaker. But IMO, with particular drivers, it's akin to trying to overly season or marinate a steak that just doesn't have its own amazing, natural flavor to begin with.

I still REALLY enjoy what the Utopia mids do. But like everyone, I'll always be searching for "the magic one". A significant determining factor in my selection process has to do with the driver's form-factor, and what will fit in the available locations of the particular vehicle, with or without fabrication.


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## Elektra

bbfoto said:


> ^Well, I do agree that some speakers just sound much better, "just right", or "more natural" right out of the box compared to others.
> 
> I still really like the Scan 12MU, 12M and 15M for their "out of the box" natural sound. And the Satori MR13P as well...really nice. They all still have a varying bit of upper mid presence, but it's just a bit and can easily be dialed in with use of XO/passband/EQ. The detail is still there, but it is presented in a pleasing, realistic, and natural way.
> 
> I'm currently using the Utopia 3.5WM in an install combined with the tiny Gladen Aerospace 20 tweeters in smallish, stealth sail panel pods. I chose this particular combination because I really wanted to fit both drivers vertically-aligned in OEM-look, non-protruding sail panel pods.
> 
> I've used the GB25 combined with the Aerospace 20 tweeter in this application for it's small form-factor as well, and it's a really nice combination. But generally I've found that I prefer slightly larger diameter midrange drivers, and was interested in seeing (hearing) what the new Utopia 3.5WM had to offer.
> 
> The Utopia "wows" because it just seems to be such a "detail machine". It _seems_ really fast, dynamic, detailed, and "airy", but my impression after having spent some time with it is that it's sort of an unnatural presentation...
> 
> I guess I would describe it as somewhat "forced" detail and dynamics, or IDK, maybe "unnaturally analytical"?
> 
> I'd really like to have Erin test these to see what's going on if he'd be interested in doing that. One of my thoughts is that back wave reflections depending on the enclosure or mounting scheme are more of a issue with these and may be influencing the sound more than other designs. IDK
> 
> I'd probably be using the 12MU, but I settled on the 3.5WM because ultimately I wanted the sail panel pods to blend-in, not protrude, and be "OEM" stealth, and that just wasn't possible with the 12MU, 12M, Dyn E2 430, nor the MR13P.
> 
> This is why I've been so interested in the new Audison TH 3.0 II Voce 3" midrange. But Fook Me!...that price is just ridonculous!
> 
> There are no top of dash OEM locations in this vehicle, and I'm not willing to do severe mods a' la Erin's Civic dash. But gawd, I so wish that Purifi PTT4.0W04 4" mid was a smaller form-factor neo-motor driver, as that might have persuaded me to actually do the "ErinH dash mod", haha, or at least be okay with slightly larger sail panel pods.
> 
> Obviously, proper tuning can do A LOT to tame the response and character of ANY given speaker. But IMO, with particular drivers, it's akin to trying to overly season or marinate a steak that just doesn't have its own amazing, natural flavor to begin with.
> 
> I still REALLY enjoy what the Utopia mids do. But like everyone, I'll always be searching for "the magic one". A significant determining factor in my selection process has to do with the driver's form-factor, and what will fit in the available locations of the particular vehicle, with or without fabrication.


I dunno for me the Brax was more transparent more linear. The Utopia sounds a bit forward in your face, forced it’s not effortless. 

I also think these mids must not be in a sealed enclosure - I think a IB situation works better. The only time I actually liked the Focal mid was when it was In a door panel not sealed. I did test a bigger enclosure to what I had and it performed better. 

I think the TBM is really good though - I would use that again...


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## marko

yes, IB works well for me, in A pillars facing each other not pointing at your face screaming at you, this is how all Focal mids and tweeters should be mounted IME.


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## Elektra

marko said:


> yes, IB works well for me, in A pillars facing each other not pointing at your face screaming at you, this is how all Focal mids and tweeters should be mounted IME.


Problem is your stage will be narrow and you get all sorts of reflections from the windscreen..

These would probably work in a door up at the top to reduce reflections 


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## marko

not in my car..


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## Mullings

All good points and I was gonna pm you with my findings because usually it’s a bunch of idiots commenting with stupidity but not this time so I’ll put it here. I demo’d some sinfoni grandioso’s with E110 tweeters off of a McIntosh mc431 and that’s was so natural and real sounding that I got grandioso mid and tweeters, I couldn’t decide which Mid is better between the grandioso and the ss 12mu’s because they sounded so similar that I thought they were made in the same build house so I went with the sinfoni’s because I was able to mount deeper in the corner of the dash for a slightly wider stage, fast forward to the end of the build and time to tune and I couldn’t get them to sound nothing like the demo so I started blaming the tweeters because I didn’t demo the mids with them, I used the E110’s, so I built probably 6 or 7 pods testing every high end mids there is and was never happy with the outcome, they all sounded very detailed but something just isn’t right so I bought the Utopia 3.5wm and Tbm and these were even more detailed but sharp, I couldn’t enjoy the music at high volume at first but over time they seemed to be getting tamer so I said ok they’re breaking in, at this point I had already loaned the 12mu’s to a friend and I told him that I want them back and he loved them so much that he just bought a new pair and have them shipped directly to my house, I didn’t mention that he’s in Jamaica and when I went there last year and heard his land cruiser with them paired with focal tlr tweeters and mw182’s all played by 2 McIntosh mc 420’s, that was the best sounding car I’ve ever heard, lol I wanted to take every piece of equipment back from his because these are all equipment I gave him that I didn’t want and his car sounds so much better than mine. At that point I had a hunch “wonder if it’s the brax amps”, I never demo’d the speakers with them but it can’t be because this is BRAX. One morning on my way to work, the car cut power right before the exit to a friend of mine’s garage so I exited just in case something is wrong and sure enough when I stopped at the light the check hybrid system light came on so I drove about 100 meter on electric till the battery died and the car shut off, my friend came and towed to car to his garage and me thinking that the hybrid battery is no good starting ripping out everything in the trunk to get to the hybrid battery. Turned out it was the gas pump and it was under the back seat and I didn’t have to even open the trunk lol, anyways I drove for weeks without music and one evening I decided to put in 2 kenwood xr400-4’s and WOW where that sharp sound? Why can I now bang on it at max level without the fatigue? For sure it’s the ****in amps so nick decided he’ll give me whatever amps I want and take the Brax’s back so mosconi came to mind a I decided on 2 zero4’s and a zero1 for the subs. These are some sweet sounding amps with an exotic Sound to them and I can still rock out at maxed volume. I gave matei a demo the other day and he couldn’t fault the system, nothing sticks out, nothing is fatiguing, just pure sound, he picked up on the exotic and likes it but me, I want natural and I know exactly what amp does that. So for all the people that thinks that all amps sounds the same, you just didn’t experiment with enough equipment. With all that said though, I’m definitely going back to the e110 tweeter with the grandioso’s or 12mu’s, they’re the same diameter but different depth so I’ll design it for the 12mu’s. One last thing, this is the widest and best imaging soundstage I’ve ever had, partly because I’m a much better tuner now but I was able to stick the M’s in some areas that is impossible for every other speaker and tweeter I’ve ever came across.


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## zak

Elektra - what do you think about the JL W7? How does it compare to your Focal 10WM?


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## Mullings

Hey Jason, I’ll try my best to keep the Utopia’s in for the GTG so you guys can hear them, I know they’re good when it’s been weeks since I put a dash mat In and did a 1/12 octave tune on them and don’t even look at the laptop to make any changes. Like I said, the only thing is personal preference with sound signature but they’re super impressive along with the fact that my sound stage is BIG with no clutter just makes for fun system


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## SkizeR

Mullings said:


> All good points and I was gonna pm you with my findings because usually it’s a bunch of idiots commenting with stupidity but not this time so I’ll put it here. I demo’d some sinfoni grandioso’s with E110 tweeters off of a McIntosh mc431 and that’s was so natural and real sounding that I got grandioso mid and tweeters, I couldn’t decide which Mid is better between the grandioso and the ss 12mu’s because they sounded so similar that I thought they were made in the same build house so I went with the sinfoni’s because I was able to mount deeper in the corner of the dash for a slightly wider stage, fast forward to the end of the build and time to tune and I couldn’t get them to sound nothing like the demo so I started blaming the tweeters because I didn’t demo the mids with them, I used the E110’s, so I built probably 6 or 7 pods testing every high end mids there is and was never happy with the outcome, they all sounded very detailed but something just isn’t right so I bought the Utopia 3.5wm and Tbm and these were even more detailed but sharp, I couldn’t enjoy the music at high volume at first but over time they seemed to be getting tamer so I said ok they’re breaking in, at this point I had already loaned the 12mu’s to a friend and I told him that I want them back and he loved them so much that he just bought a new pair and have them shipped directly to my house, I didn’t mention that he’s in Jamaica and when I went there last year and heard his land cruiser with them paired with focal tlr tweeters and mw182’s all played by 2 McIntosh mc 420’s, that was the best sounding car I’ve ever heard, lol I wanted to take every piece of equipment back from his because these are all equipment I gave him that I didn’t want and his car sounds so much better than mine. At that point I had a hunch “wonder if it’s the brax amps”, I never demo’d the speakers with them but it can’t be because this is BRAX. One morning on my way to work, the car cut power right before the exit to a friend of mine’s garage so I exited just in case something is wrong and sure enough when I stopped at the light the check hybrid system light came on so I drove about 100 meter on electric till the battery died and the car shut off, my friend came and towed to car to his garage and me thinking that the hybrid battery is no good starting ripping out everything in the trunk to get to the hybrid battery. Turned out it was the gas pump and it was under the back seat and I didn’t have to even open the trunk lol, anyways I drove for weeks without music and one evening I decided to put in 2 kenwood xr400-4’s and WOW where that sharp sound? Why can I now bang on it at max level without the fatigue? For sure it’s the ****in amps so nick decided he’ll give me whatever amps I want and take the Brax’s back so mosconi came to mind a I decided on 2 zero4’s and a zero1 for the subs. These are some sweet sounding amps with an exotic Sound to them and I can still rock out at maxed volume. I gave matei a demo the other day and he couldn’t fault the system, nothing sticks out, nothing is fatiguing, just pure sound, he picked up on the exotic and likes it but me, I want natural and I know exactly what amp does that. So for all the people that thinks that all amps sounds the same, you just didn’t experiment with enough equipment. With all that said though, I’m definitely going back to the e110 tweeter with the grandioso’s or 12mu’s, they’re the same diameter but different depth so I’ll design it for the 12mu’s. One last thing, this is the widest and best imaging soundstage I’ve ever had, partly because I’m a much better tuner now but I was able to stick the M’s in some areas that is impossible for every other speaker and tweeter I’ve ever came across.


Can confirm. Kevin is wild and has more dedication to his car than anyone I have seen. If I had half his dedication my new car would be done by now 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

zak said:


> Elektra - what do you think about the JL W7? How does it compare to your Focal 10WM?


Dude it’s another planet... totally different sub - the JL can play 20hz much more authority whilst still remaining composed - I am not rattling the doors off it’s set for SQ in a sealed box...

I am surprised at how good the JL actually is... sure it can move air but it actually sounds pretty good at normal volumes...

It sounds like the the JBLW15GTI just it has more impact - you feel the bass when you supposed to 

Never got that with the Focal 


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## zak

Good to know. I was considering a 10w6 or 12w6 to replace my old (but still working) 27wx.


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## Elektra

zak said:


> Good to know. I was considering a 10w6 or 12w6 to replace my old (but still working) 27wx.


Like everything you need to tune the sub have it in the right enclosure.. 

My car has a massive 30-40hz resonance peak like 6-7dbs if you can smoothen the curve the sub that goes the lowest in my opinion is best... 

The 10WM was good but only in a 40+ lt enclosure as the QTS is 0.68 - it simply can’t perform in the recommended enclosures... 

So now the sub doesn’t have that small box appeal - it actually needs a big box. So it uses the same size or just about the same size as a JL12W7 enclosure... 

You can’t get a 0.707QTS scenario with the 10WM unless you go almost IB..

Since the sub plays such a small frequency range you may as well go for something that can hit a low note and tune it to your liking.. 

Some of the music I play the 10WM simply can’t play or play effectively.... 

I am testing a 12W7 which I got today - it’s bnib but I’ll measure it and try it out.


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## dgage

Elektra said:


> Dude it’s another planet... totally different sub - the JL can play 20hz much more authority whilst still remaining composed - I am not rattling the doors off it’s set for SQ in a sealed box...
> 
> I am surprised at how good the JL actually is... sure it can move air but it actually sounds pretty good at normal volumes...
> 
> It sounds like the the JBLW15GTI just it has more impact - you feel the bass when you supposed to
> 
> Never got that with the Focal


I think most of what you just described is mostly due to cone area. I’ve tested a 12” home audio midrange against an 8” home audio midrange and the 12” had much more impact even playing at the same output level. The larger driver doesn’t have to move as far so snaps vs the smaller driver needing to push the air more, at least that’s how I think of it. I’ve tried to understand the physics involved but I’ve not been able to find the explanation for the phenomenon.


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## Elektra

dgage said:


> I think most of what you just described is mostly due to cone area. I’ve tested a 12” home audio midrange against an 8” home audio midrange and the 12” had much more impact even playing at the same output level. The larger driver doesn’t have to move as far so snaps vs the smaller driver needing to push the air more, at least that’s how I think of it. I’ve tried to understand the physics involved but I’ve not been able to find the explanation for the phenomenon.


For me Bass needs to be felt as well - most important is how it controls itself when doing so and not being boomy higher up..

That has a lot to do with proper enclosure and tuning - you can’t make a sub play a frequency it can’t do without a compromise of some sort..

Sure you can boost your DSP at 20hz and increase your power and drop everything around the 20hz to make it more pronounced but a bigger sub doesn’t have to do that... 

I was surprised with the 13W7 I got it basically for free... so it cost me nothing to try it. 

I am ordering a new AE tomorrow... I have already sold the 13W7 it took a while 1 hour to sell and I got more for it than I would have gotten if I tried to sell the Esotar sub and almost twice the amount I got for the 10WM... which took weeks to sell..


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## Dremgragen

Elektra said:


> For me Bass needs to be felt as well - most important is how it controls itself when doing so and not being boomy higher up..
> 
> That has a lot to do with proper enclosure and tuning - you can’t make a sub play a frequency it can’t do without a compromise of some sort..
> 
> I am ordering a new AE tomorrow... I have already sold the 13W7 it took a while 1 hour to sell and I got more for it than I would have gotten if I tried to sell the Esotar sub and almost twice the amount I got for the 10WM... which took weeks to sell..


Agreed on all accounts. Which AE are you getting? 

I'm deeply considering cutting my trunk floor and dropping a single 18" AE in the hole. My only 2 issues are: I don't really have any tools - and I'm worried the sound will be too loud to the outside. My current single 12" in sealed box is contained enough at high volume that with my windows up I don't disturb others around me and police don't notice me. 

The single 12 sealed just can't dig as low as the IB would be able to at less power. 



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## Ge0

Elektra said:


> I have the 10F’s as well and the 3.5wm the difference between the two is naturalness and smoothness - I found the 10F to be very lively...


I currently have a system running 5 10F's. My thoughts exactly. A great driver but maybe too lively. I prefer a more laid back response like my old 12M's...

Ge0


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## zech912

tonynca said:


> In a two way especially for woofers at the bottom door panels the 1khz+ don't sound as clear as a 3 way 3" mounted at the a-pillar. I tried my best getting the mid-range to sound right but it was always so hallow due to the 500hz and 1.25khz null spot.
> 
> If you're spending this type of money might as well make the most of it and do 3 way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This was exactly my dilemma. I had Morel Piccolo tweeters (awesome) and Utopia W-XP woofers (awesome) and yet I was in fact bothered by what seemed to me hollow-ness at the frequencies you state. I had the car at local Focal Elite dealer for tuning and while there listened to the Utopia M sound wall. I was blown away, not by the woofer, but the truly amazing M midrange. Added that and now I am happy. It also persuaded me that even an excellent two-way cannot compete with a great three-way.


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## zech912

One additional thought, prior to the W-XP woofer, I had 165KRX2. The lack of midrange was not evident to me with the KRX2, not great but not "hollow". But the midbass, at which the W-XP is tremendous, was not nearly as good. So, my guess is that in a two way system, with the vast range the woofer has to cover, it is either going to be better at the higher or the lower end, but not both.


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## MythosDreamLab

zech912 said:


> One additional thought, prior to the W-XP woofer, I had 165KRX2. The lack of midrange was not evident to me with the KRX2, not great but not "hollow". But the midbass, at which the W-XP is tremendous, was not nearly as good. So, my guess is that in a two way system, with the vast range the woofer has to cover, it is either going to be better at the higher or the lower end, but not both.



Can't seem to find the 165KRX2, maybe it is a discontinued model or did you mean the Focal ES 165 KX2? 

Anyway, since I have no easy or obvious locations for mids, I'm going with Utopia 165W-XP's (woofers in front doors & the Berylilium tweets in the A-Pillars) and the KX2 (woofers in the rear doors and Thesis 1.5 II Violinos in the front facing rear C-Pillars) all active - my hope is that I will be happy without mids, but I guess we'll see in the next 2/3 weeks...

Cheers!


----------



## zech912

MythosDreamLab said:


> Can't seem to find the 165KRX2, maybe it is a discontinued model or did you mean the Focal ES 165 KX2?
> 
> Anyway, since I have no easy or obvious locations for mids, I'm going with Utopia 165W-XP's (woofers in front doors & the Berylilium tweets in the A-Pillars) and the KX2 (woofers in the rear doors and Thesis 1.5 II Violinos in the front facing rear C-Pillars) all active - my hope is that I will be happy without mids, but I guess we'll see in the next 2/3 weeks...
> 
> Cheers!


Yes, the KRX2 was the top, below Utopia, of one generation back. I have read there is little difference between its woofer and the ES 165KX2 woofer, the upgrade was in the tweeter. Sounds like you have great audio on the way, I look forward to reading your review. I can say though, the Utopia M midrange is mind-blowing.


----------



## haakono

This guy seems to be impressed (and then some) by the 6WM


----------



## MythosDreamLab

haakono said:


> This guy seems to be impressed (and then some) by the 6WM
> View attachment 290110



I feel sorry for his cat...


----------



## oabeieo

The 3.5wm is truly a very dam good midrange.... nothing quite like it. 


I want to hear what ppl think about the new tweeter and compared to the old 

I’ve installed both and tuned many cars with both, just curious what a owner thinks of the two and there comparisons...

One thing that bothered me a lot with the new tweeter is the surround, when the bass hits the tweeter Excurtion is visible! 
That can’t be good.... with a couple 12s or 10s even it’s that loose 

Your thoughts


----------



## Thomasluke7899

oabeieo said:


> The 3.5wm is truly a very dam good midrange.... nothing quite like it.
> 
> 
> I want to hear what ppl think about the new tweeter and compared to the old
> 
> I’ve installed both and tuned many cars with both, just curious what a owner thinks of the two and there comparisons...
> 
> One thing that bothered me a lot with the new tweeter is the surround, when the bass hits the tweeter Excurtion is visible!
> That can’t be good.... with a couple 12s or 10s even it’s that loose
> 
> Your thoughts


You're saying the pressure change in the air is moving th3 diaphragm?


----------



## oabeieo

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You're saying the pressure change in the air is moving th3 diaphragm?


Yeah! Big time! I’ve done 2 installs with them and noticed same thing, so a SQ system it’s probably fine , but for a SQ+ system I’m nit sure 

It could be up in pillars has a lot of SPL (what car doesn’t) I’ve noticed the beryllium dome moving dam near like a midbass (in comparison) there no way there’s enough Xlin support that much... the coil has got to be overshooting the gap, but I just don’t know... it did it with the caps on and off the rear, it was worse with the cap off the rear but still not by much....

The new FX tweeters do the same thing just nit near as bad as the Be tweeter 

So , I’m reluctant to get the new style.... and every single time I call ORCA, I don’t get a call back.... 

I’ll try messaging a friend at gladen on FB and ask , but would like to know or hear from someone else maybe I’m doing something wrong


----------



## Thomasluke7899

oabeieo said:


> Yeah! Big time! I’ve done 2 installs with them and noticed same thing, so a SQ system it’s probably fine , but for a SQ+ system I’m nit sure
> 
> It could be up in pillars has a lot of SPL (what car doesn’t) I’ve noticed the beryllium dome moving dam near like a midbass (in comparison) there no way there’s enough Xlin support that much... the coil has got to be overshooting the gap, but I just don’t know... it did it with the caps on and off the rear, it was worse with the cap off the rear but still not by much....
> 
> The new FX tweeters do the same thing just nit near as bad as the Be tweeter
> 
> So , I’m reluctant to get the new style.... and every single time I call ORCA, I don’t get a call back....
> 
> I’ll try messaging a friend at gladen on FB and ask , but would like to know or hear from someone else maybe I’m doing something wrong


If they move without an input signal at all then there is nothing you can be doing.
I'd like to see one just sitting on the dash.


----------



## oabeieo

Next time I’m installing a set that has substantial sub bass I will definitely make a video...

I need to get a set in and I’ll put one on the dash of my car not hooked to anything


----------



## CarlosMMG

How is 10Wm focal utopia I am planning on putting that in a 2001 bmw 325i . Where should it be placed . How big do they have to make the box to be perfect for this woofer .


----------



## oabeieo

CarlosMMG said:


> How is 10Wm focal utopia I am planning on putting that in a 2001 bmw 325i . Where should it be placed . How big do they have to make the box to be perfect for this woofer .



Havent used the WM woofers yet , anyone else ???

I would imagine it’s very good.....


----------



## Elektra

CarlosMMG said:


> How is 10Wm focal utopia I am planning on putting that in a 2001 bmw 325i . Where should it be placed . How big do they have to make the box to be perfect for this woofer .


Build a test box at Focals spec and then build one that’s 40+ Lts - those subs should not be in a small box…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Loud Residence

oabeieo said:


> The 3.5wm is truly a very dam good midrange.... nothing quite like it.
> 
> 
> I want to hear what ppl think about the new tweeter and compared to the old
> 
> I’ve installed both and tuned many cars with both, just curious what a owner thinks of the two and there comparisons...
> 
> One thing that bothered me a lot with the new tweeter is the surround, when the bass hits the tweeter Excurtion is visible!
> That can’t be good.... with a couple 12s or 10s even it’s that loose
> 
> Your thoughts


I can't agree with you more. I use the M's also and the 3.5wm is an amazing speaker it, in my opinion, the greatest sounding speaker ever made. I have never used a center channel speaker in my vehicle but I loved the sound of that speaker so much I added another 3,5wm as a center and that just threw it over the top. I live right next to the focal plant in Camarillo so I go there from time to time and I spoke with a guy regarding the tweeters and he said that they are close to impossible to blow. I did what he said and I played them as loud as my Moscoi Amp would play without a crossover for 3 minutes and had no issues at all. I am now completely confident in them. Even if anything would to happen focal are good with honoring the warranty. I just don't even worry anymore especially after seeing how they treat them.


----------



## SkizeR

Loud Residence said:


> I spoke with a guy regarding the tweeters and he said that they are close to impossible to blow.


Can confirm. I didn't use capacitors in my personal car, and also accidentally mixed up the wiring from mid to tweeter on my driver side. They actually measured down to 300hz on the rta no problem but something obviously sounded off for a couple of days. I finally dug in and found out what i had done. They were fine. And for those that know me, know that i am not light on the volume knob. Still using that tweeter to this day (but properly lol)


----------



## oabeieo

Loud Residence said:


> I can't agree with you more. I use the M's also and the 3.5wm is an amazing speaker it, in my opinion, the greatest sounding speaker ever made. I have never used a center channel speaker in my vehicle but I loved the sound of that speaker so much I added another 3,5wm as a center and that just threw it over the top. I live right next to the focal plant in Camarillo so I go there from time to time and I spoke with a guy regarding the tweeters and he said that they are close to impossible to blow. I did what he said and I played them as loud as my Moscoi Amp would play without a crossover for 3 minutes and had no issues at all. I am now completely confident in them. Even if anything would to happen focal are good with honoring the warranty. I just don't even worry anymore especially after seeing how they treat them.





SkizeR said:


> Can confirm. I didn't use capacitors in my personal car, and also accidentally mixed up the wiring from mid to tweeter on my driver side. They actually measured down to 300hz on the rta no problem but something obviously sounded off for a couple of days. I finally dug in and found out what i had done. They were fine. And for those that know me, know that i am not light on the volume knob. Still using that tweeter to this day (but properly lol)



Holy Mol’e! 

Well, then that is settled. I will definitely be getting a set to go with the 3.5wm.

Thanks for the info guys. I always thought be was super thin and fragile and get cracks in it really easily. I’ve seen a lot of the old be tweets have cracks in the dome..... and I like loud also...


So nick , you like loud... have you burned up a midrange at all? There rated at 50w , do you think it will be okay with 120w and playing it to 300hz and listen daily loud.... maybe not balls out loud but comfortably loud. 


Thanks again


----------



## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> Holy Mol’e!
> 
> Well, then that is settled. I will definitely be getting a set to go with the 3.5wm.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys. I always thought be was super thin and fragile and get cracks in it really easily. I’ve seen a lot of the old be tweets have cracks in the dome..... and I like loud also...
> 
> 
> So nick , you like loud... have you burned up a midrange at all? There rated at 50w , do you think it will be okay with 120w and playing it to 300hz and listen daily loud.... maybe not balls out loud but comfortably loud.
> 
> 
> Thanks again


We've had 'em on Brax MX4's crossed at 250. Full fvcking send, baby

also, during those few days i had em accidently crossed like that, I've had the tweeters bottom out a few times. Theyre fine.


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> We've had 'em on Brax MX4's crossed at 250. Full fvcking send, baby
> 
> also, during those few days i had em accidently crossed like that, I've had the tweeters bottom out a few times. Theyre fine.


I love it 🤩🤩🤩


----------



## DirtyBumOak510

CarlosMMG said:


> How is 10Wm focal utopia I am planning on putting that in a 2001 bmw 325i . Where should it be placed . How big do they have to make the box to be perfect for this woofer .


I have mine in approximately 0.6 and they play flat from 10hz to my crossover at 80hz. There's a hefty hump at 60hz that my EQ/DSP takes care of. With a fairly aggressive target curve ([email protected]) The single 10" hangs with my high sensitivity 8" midbass (getting 500w) and horns. I have very little complaints for a single 10". 
Pssound and Facebook told me I could and maybe should up the volume to 1.2ft3 which I have available. I haven't gotten around to it so I can't say what that might do. My local, well respected installer Bing, says that they sound better in the recommended larger enclosure from Focal (I believe it's around 0.4) . I also haven't tried that size enclosure so I can't comment. 
The major compromise that the 10wm subwoofer has is that the thing f***** moves. I was advised to leave a 1.75" gap between the cone and whatever it might hit. I used 2" and have had it hit that on a few select songs when using ~700w. It's not that it bottoms out, it's that the cone jumps out 2". For me, with a false floor, this has become a false floor that constantly is rising. I think Matthew Kim had also commented on the fact that what the 10wm gives you in it's shallow depth, it takes it from you in the sense that that cone jumps out at you 2"+. 
It sounds A+. For me, I chose it because I needed something that was shallow-ish. There may be different options when you get into the 6-7"+ depth like Adire Brahma, but that wasn't an option for me.


----------



## SkizeR

DirtyBumOak510 said:


> I think Matthew Kim had also commented on the fact that what the 10wm gives you in it's shallow depth, it takes it from you in the sense that that cone jumps out at you 2"+.


This sub has traumatized him and he now leaves enough space that Evil Knievel wants to jump the gap on his bike


----------



## oabeieo

So far I’m not liking the tweeter , the stevens is way way better..... ugh 

and the 6.5 sucks so far also

1st day in ...... need to warm up


----------



## SkizeR

and this is why i dont trust subjective reviews... lol


----------



## MrGreen83

oabeieo said:


> So far I’m not liking the tweeter , the stevens is way way better..... ugh
> 
> and the 6.5 sucks so far also
> 
> 1st day in ...... need to warm up


I’ll take them off ur hands 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> and this is why i dont trust subjective reviews... lol


Im glad you say that, I just came out for a listen this morning

it’s good, dam good, I definitely like the dispersion of the stevens way better... this one absolutely sounds accurate. My stage sounds a lot farther away just by switching drivers, and the stage is extremely articulate..... 

So please let me re phrase ; I like it , it’s just different, it’s going take some getting used to .... 

The 6” sounds a tad hollow amd the tweeter dispersion is very different then what I’m used to 

but super accurate and precision control over the signal...


----------



## SkizeR

I'll tell ya this, the 6's break in a lot. Very stiff out of the box (which on its own, means nothing), but the ones that are in my door were much more typical (used for 5 months). very noticeable difference on feel alone.


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> I'll tell ya this, the 6's break in a lot. Very stiff out of the box (which on its own, means nothing), but the ones that are in my door were much more typical (used for 5 months). very noticeable difference on feel alone.


Will this 6 be happy crossed at 1k or 1.2k?

from what I’m hearing it almost sounds like it wants to be a bass speaker.... do you think I’m off base thinking that... i’m still in the first impression stage


Edit : Yeah I do need to give it some time you’re right I just did a door speaker that radically changed a week into it completely measured totally different


----------



## Elektra

I think good speakers need quite a bit of running in time - my Brax speakers only started to sound good after months of use


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> Will this 6 be happy crossed at 1k or 1.2k?
> 
> from what I’m hearing it almost sounds like it wants to be a bass speaker.... do you think I’m off base thinking that... i’m still in the first impression stage
> 
> 
> Edit : Yeah I do need to give it some time you’re right I just did a door speaker that radically changed a week into it completely measured totally different


why so high? Are you really running a two way set up?


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> why so high? Are you really running a two way set up?


i have 3ways in the pillar , the 8wm in the kicks and the new epique 7s in the doors

it’s a 5way system

I lowered the crossover on the tweeter to 2970 with a 12db slope , thing fu***ing sizzles now! Dam oh my goodness 3.7k was too high

I love this tweeter now ..... Holy crap I just got back from a listen and balls to the wall
I enjoyed it quite a bit listened to the new rufusdol “next to me” mixes and oh y goodness 

OK so the Twitter is figured out the six still has a little bit of a hollow sound I’m gonna just gonna have to work on this it’s getting better I just need to do my fiddling around with ****


----------



## oabeieo

Elektra said:


> I think good speakers need quite a bit of running in time - my Brax speakers only started to sound good after months of use
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I used to mock break in time till about a week ago...... (all those times I scorend ppl for saying so, I have a big old foot in my mouth now) ;-)


----------



## oabeieo

The dispersion is really wide , I’m getting reflective issues above 4K , maybe a waveguide or something to damp or obstruct the path to the glass and the tweeter will be just right.....

I pulled the caps off and it lowered the output in the crossover but made it sound a lot smoother overall in the crossover....

i think I’ll put the caps back on and shoot for about -20db at fs .....

The 6 sure doesn’t like to want to go past 800, but it does with wide eq cuts below it. It plays to 1.3k, with good fidelity, but man this 6 really wants to be a midbass

it reminds me a lot of the 6ND430. Super punchy in the 150-350hz range. It has to die for midbass....

so it’s working a lot better today.....

Just a unusual set , have to do things I didn’t quite expect but these drivers cooperate with me and are flexible enough to do just about any configuration someone would want....

the 8wm is nothing short of badasse
Plays 65-300 like a champ. And the 3.5 we all know is amazing in every way.


----------



## haakono

You have a 5-way front stage setup, with Utopia 8wm, 6wm, 3,5wm, TBM and also these? 








Home


Epique E180HE-44 7" DVC MMAG Extended Range Subwoofer 4 Ohm per CoilEpique E180HE-44 7" DVC MMAG Extended Range Subwoofer 4 Ohm per CoilLike. No. OtherCombining world class performance with a reasonable cost, the Epique E180HE-44 7" carbon fiber cone woofer from Dayton Audio sets a new standard...




www.parts-express.com


----------



## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> The dispersion is really wide , I’m getting reflective issues above 4K , maybe a waveguide or something to damp or obstruct the path to the glass and the tweeter will be just right.....
> 
> I pulled the caps off and it lowered the output in the crossover but made it sound a lot smoother overall in the crossover....
> 
> i think I’ll put the caps back on and shoot for about -20db at fs .....
> 
> The 6 sure doesn’t like to want to go past 800, but it does with wide eq cuts below it. It plays to 1.3k, with good fidelity, but man this 6 really wants to be a midbass
> 
> it reminds me a lot of the 6ND430. Super punchy in the 150-350hz range. It has to die for midbass....
> 
> so it’s working a lot better today.....
> 
> Just a unusual set , have to do things I didn’t quite expect but these drivers cooperate with me and are flexible enough to do just about any configuration someone would want....
> 
> the 8wm is nothing short of badasse
> Plays 65-300 like a champ. And the 3.5 we all know is amazing in every way.


Gonna install my 8,3.5 and TBM in my car soon - hearing good things about the 8WM drivers so pretty excited to get them in…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> The 6 sure doesn’t like to want to go past 800, but it does with wide eq cuts below it. It plays to 1.3k, with good fidelity, but man this 6 really wants to be a midbass


That would be your car or tune/settings. plays nearly flat to 5k



https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/ft_utopia_6wm.pdf


----------



## SkizeR

Elektra said:


> Gonna install my 8,3.5 and TBM in my car soon - hearing good things about the 8WM drivers so pretty excited to get them in…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If these are in your underseat BMW locations, you better be modifying to let the enclosure vent out of the car. Otherwise, you will be disappointed. These want IB. Not the insanely small enclosure that the BMW underseats have.


----------



## haakono

Do you think they would work in 1,5-2 ft³ sealed for midbass duties?

I have lots of free space underneath the floor carpet (about 4 inches over the whole floor area) that from the factory is built up with polystyrene spacers between the carpet and actual metal floor. 









Lots of clearance to mount Utopia midbasses in floor under the OEM floor height.


----------



## Myface

Elektra said:


> Gonna install my 8,3.5 and TBM in my car soon - hearing good things about the 8WM drivers so pretty excited to get them in…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wait, I thought you got rid of the utopias and went with brax. What's up with that?


----------



## Thomasluke7899

SkizeR said:


> That would be your car or tune/settings. plays nearly flat to 5k
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/ft_utopia_6wm.pdf


I wouldn't call that flat. Lol. The peak centered at 140 and the dip centered 850....there is like 6 or 7dbs worth of difference there. If that is what you consider a flat response.....


----------



## oabeieo

haakono said:


> You have a 5-way front stage setup, with Utopia 8wm, 6wm, 3,5wm, TBM and also these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home
> 
> 
> Epique E180HE-44 7" DVC MMAG Extended Range Subwoofer 4 Ohm per CoilEpique E180HE-44 7" DVC MMAG Extended Range Subwoofer 4 Ohm per CoilLike. No. OtherCombining world class performance with a reasonable cost, the Epique E180HE-44 7" carbon fiber cone woofer from Dayton Audio sets a new standard...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.parts-express.com


well yeah! Those epique woofers really ice the cake.... the 8wm is in a small kick panel , it plays to 80 with a LR4 , so that means the voltage in the crossover starts cutting around 150hz, as any LR would do. The small pod adds a lot of excursion at 80, the dynaudio that was in it would bottom out, this one doesn’t but it’s moving a lot...

the epique is crossed at 65 with a butt 18
So the crossover doesn’t cut voltage till about 72hz so I can get full power through the 80s and 70s and no significant voltage drop till the 50s or even 40s 

the doors are IB and play bass well.... the doors alone sound like subs , when I turn the sub off it’s missing nothing and has the full spectrum from about 45hz up.

all of the crossovers are linear phase so they sum perfectly at any volume difference. So I can put the sub wherever I want and it’s completely coherent to the fronts.

it’s works nice..... I’m happy with those...


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> That would be your car or tune/settings. plays nearly flat to 5k
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/ft_utopia_6wm.pdf


thanks nick ,

i changed the crossover to 1220 it’s working much better now

and a few days of break in now, there working great!
I appreciate your help man. 

And now that I have the tweeter figured out it’s even better
The car sounds better then ever.... I’m super happy now.....


----------



## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> thanks nick ,
> 
> i changed the crossover to 1220 it’s working much better now
> 
> and a few days of break in now, there working great!
> I appreciate your help man.
> 
> And now that I have the tweeter figured out it’s even better
> The car sounds better then ever.... I’m super happy now.....


I still have zero idea why you have such.... interesting... crossovers.


----------



## SkizeR

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I wouldn't call that flat. Lol. The peak centered at 140 and the dip centered 850....there is like 6 or 7dbs worth of difference there. If that is what you consider a flat response.....


That "peak" at 140 is hardly one and most likely not even the speaker, but the room/measurement itself considering the low frequency in relation to speaker size. And yes, its not "flat", but its definitely very usable without any problems as a two way mid-woofer. its +/-3db range seems to be about 50hz to 6khz... the response of the driver is most definitely not his problem regardless of what silly little thing you want to pick out.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

SkizeR said:


> That "peak" at 140 is hardly one and most likely not even the speaker, but the room/measurement itself considering the low frequency in relation to speaker size. And yes, its not "flat", but its definitely very usable without any problems as a two way mid-woofer. its +/-3db range seems to be about 50hz to 6khz... the response of the driver is most definitely not his problem regardless of what silly little thing you want to pick out.


Yo...what? So focal posted botched measurements? 
And the graph is no where near plus or minus 3 dB from 100 to 800 like dude said. 
So his ears and install are to blame for his problems and the graph focal posted is highly influenced by the room. 
Ok cool. Good to know.


----------



## SkizeR

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Yo...what? So focal posted botched measurements?
> And the graph is no where near plus or minus 3 dB from 100 to 800 like dude said.
> So his ears and install are to blame for his problems and the graph focal posted is highly influenced by the room.
> Ok cool. Good to know.


I'm not sure how much you know about how speakers work, but in Focals graph, we see blips in response all the way down to 40hz. These is just not possible on a 6" driver. Its due to the room. The one at 140hz _may_ be possible, but I doubt it. Same reason a lot of Erins measurements had dips at 80hz on every speaker he measured for a period of time. Its the room the measurement is done in. Again, 80hz peak/dips are just not possible on these drivers.. No need to try to cherry pick and twist what I say just because you are sensitive about being corrected. This is what, the third time you have done this now? maybe its time to take a break from the internet and take a few deep breaths.






AudioFrog GS8ND2 8-Inch Woofer Review


AudioFrog GS8ND2 8-Inch Woofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com










Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review


Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review




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AudioFrog GB60 6 Inch Midwoofer Review


AudioFrog GB60 6 Inch Midwoofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com










Dyn Audio MW172 8-Inch Mid/Woofer Review


Dyn Audio MW172 8-Inch Mid/Woofer Review




www.erinsaudiocorner.com


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> I still have zero idea why you have such.... interesting... crossovers.


so maybe we’re more alike then we think,
I like loud, I just can’t stand ball out loud that has distortion or any sort of artifacts.

ive gotten daily handy at making zero phase shift crossovers, and on this build (since I stopped using horns) I wanted to be able to get the same loud levels but not sacrificing any staging or imaging or response accuracy.... and (the main reason) not blowing drivers or even getting them anywhere near power compression or heat issues...

so I decided to do a 5way, I had the room to do 3ways in the pillars , that with kicks and doors I can use the 6 as a midrange that can seriously get with the game as far as power handling goes... taking the load off the 3.5 and letting it do the work it’s best at.

I angled the 6s in 18deg and the 3.5s are 40deg , and the tweeter is on axis for the driver and 40deg for the passenger (both firing forward all angles calculated from driver seat)

studying the forward and side lobes of most drivers and learning what crossovers and frequencies those lobes give the most energy, I built my pillars to match (as much as possible) to have equal energy across the 3 ways for left and right. (As sets of 3)

so the 6 gives exceptional side lobe that is uniform with the forward lobe and doesn’t really separate much till past 1400-1800hz (depending on the driver)
So I can get the most energy and the least crossover interference crossed between 1150-1600 between the 3.5 and the 6 

so the net result gives a LOT of acoustic energy maximizing the drivers dispersion
Based on what will fit and look good on my build...

this isn’t calculated exact... (I’m not that smart) I figured it out using a laser angle finder , and looking at hundreds of polars of 6s and a half dozen 3s or 4s (not that many to see)


----------



## Thomasluke7899

SkizeR said:


> I'm not sure how much you know about how speakers work, but in Focals graph, we see blips in response all the way down to 40hz. These is just not possible on a 6" driver. Its due to the room. The one at 140hz _may_ be possible, but I doubt it. Same reason a lot of Erins measurements had dips at 80hz on every speaker he measured for a period of time. Its the room the measurement is done in. Again, 80hz peak/dips are just not possible on these drivers.. No need to try to cherry pick and twist what I say just because you are sensitive about being corrected. This is what, the third time you have done this now? maybe its time to take a break from the internet and take a few deep breaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AudioFrog GS8ND2 8-Inch Woofer Review
> 
> 
> AudioFrog GS8ND2 8-Inch Woofer Review
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.erinsaudiocorner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review
> 
> 
> Purifi Audio PTT6.5W04-01A 6.5 Inch Woofer Review
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.erinsaudiocorner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AudioFrog GB60 6 Inch Midwoofer Review
> 
> 
> AudioFrog GB60 6 Inch Midwoofer Review
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.erinsaudiocorner.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dyn Audio MW172 8-Inch Mid/Woofer Review
> 
> 
> Dyn Audio MW172 8-Inch Mid/Woofer Review
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.erinsaudiocorner.com


I don't care how many things you post. The graph says it all. 
It would be happy crossed under 800. Saying a 6inch driver plays flat to 6k is worse than saying it has authority at 40 hertz. No. No it doesn't.


----------



## oabeieo

I built my 1st round of crossovers using focals data sheet, it shows a slight downward slope to about 800 then a small dip , then a peak at 1.2k and then mostly flat to to 2.5k before on and off axis become very different 

i was saying this 6 wants to be a midbass , but not it’s only a midbass.... because it wants to be one , it’s response is fantastic in the 300hz range

I had to actually take some of it out and it’s working fantastic now... super smooth nice even dispersion all the way up to my 1200ish hz crossover.... 

So , I agree with skizr , he’s absolutely right and has been exactly right on everything he’s said. And go dam it’s a nice sounding in the 800s .... no peaky echoing sounding 800s at all, just pure smooth sound.


----------



## oabeieo

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I don't care how many things you post. The graph says it all.
> It would be happy crossed under 800. Saying a 6inch driver plays flat to 6k is worse than saying it has authority at 40 hertz. No. No it doesn't.


well on axis with a watt going in it does play flat at 3 feet away.... it’s a means to know what the driver is doing

all cone drivers have a peak between 3khz-6khz and a nasty breakup mode
They show you the impedance and response all the way up so you can design your system around it 

would you want to play it to 6k , probably not, could you, yes! Would it sound fantastic? Probably not, but it will in fact play sound that is equal in energy all the way through its response

I think your not understanding what he’s saying....


----------



## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> I think your not understanding what he’s saying....


----------



## Thomasluke7899

I understand what he's saying. I also understand you have a 5 way front stage or something. 
Utopia and dayton audio? The fact that the two of you agree is enough for me.


----------



## SkizeR

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I understand what he's saying. I also understand you have a 5 way front stage or something.
> Utopia and dayton audio? The fact that the two of you agree is enough for me.


I never once said I agree. I actually hinted that his setup makes no sense to me. Multiple times I did that actually. But here you are, still being weird as fvck lol


----------



## Elektra

SkizeR said:


> If these are in your underseat BMW locations, you better be modifying to let the enclosure vent out of the car. Otherwise, you will be disappointed. These want IB. Not the insanely small enclosure that the BMW underseats have.


Yeah I am following what Peter did in that Bmw he built - gonna be cutting some holes and making a more custom enclosure to house the driver better as the oem enclosure is a little tight and and won’t fit the grill as well 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

Myface said:


> Wait, I thought you got rid of the utopias and went with brax. What's up with that?


I have 2 cars the one has the Brax speakers in the other will have the Utopias in…

I did sell the Utopias a while back so the guy who also bought the mids and tweeters with me back then sold his to me for cheap so I decided to get them - I just added the 8WMs to what he had…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

Elektra said:


> Yeah I am following what Peter did in that Bmw he built - gonna be cutting some holes and making a more custom enclosure to house the driver better as the oem enclosure is a little tight and and won’t fit the grill as well
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We just did it in an M3. We tested with it as normal before. needed to be modified.


----------



## oabeieo

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I understand what he's saying. I also understand you have a 5 way front stage or something.
> Utopia and dayton audio? The fact that the two of you agree is enough for me.


it’s a 4 way plus sub (5way)

the fronts are the system.....the door woofers and subs play the same thing except from 1hz-45hz , it could still be a 4way , but technically it’s not. Lol


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> We just did it in an M3. We tested with it as normal before. needed to be modified.


how are you doing yours?
Do you drilling straight down? And how big of a vent to outside do you do?

would a 4” hole saw be good?
With some mesh and thin foam to keep **** out.....(just a guess) 

I’ve only done one, but I removed the enclosure and made an IB board Bit didn’t vent to outside .....it was better , I need to do that tho on these .... I do a lot of BMWs and not very many ppl want to pay for kicks


----------



## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> how are you doing yours?
> Do you drilling straight down? And how big of a vent to outside do you do?
> 
> would a 4” hole saw be good?
> With some mesh and thin foam to keep **** out.....(just a guess)
> 
> I’ve only done one, but I removed the enclosure and made an IB board Bit didn’t vent to outside .....it was better , I need to do that tho on these .... I do a lot of BMWs and not very many ppl want to pay for kicks


I presume if you use a mesh your already starting a AP enclosure? The undertray should be sufficient to keep stuff out? 

Maybe a geo fabric membrane would be sufficient without impacting the drivers movement…

They say 40% of the diameter of the driver is fine… 

I think Nick can confirm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

Elektra said:


> I presume if you use a mesh your already starting a AP enclosure? The undertray should be sufficient to keep stuff out?
> 
> Maybe a geo fabric membrane would be sufficient without impacting the drivers movement…
> 
> They say 40% of the diameter of the driver is fine…
> 
> I think Nick can confirm
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah! That what I need to know mostly , the materials! Thank you

but your right , although if it acted like AP only up into the 100s (hz) that would be fine I think ? ??? Anything will act of the impedance I’m guessing, but if it’s out of band or where it’s not as crucial..... idk tho 
Never done one


----------



## oabeieo

So this tweeter moving a lot is happening in my car.... tweet completely unplugged. 
i can try and share a video ..... I’m worried

orca tech support (of course) won’t call me back. Maybe they don’t like me lol

i know the be is thin, I mean it must be able to handle the vibration (2500hz vibrates a lot) I’m worried about bottoming out and cracking the dome

I can’t get a solid answer from orca or focal .....


----------



## oabeieo

removed


----------



## vactor

oabeieo said:


> Focal be moved too much unplugged
> ^click on link to see video^


you realize that SPL means sound PRESSURE level, and that air is a medium that has actual mass. if you move enough air, it will impart a force on all objects that moving mass of air encounters. that includes the roof and glass of a car, interior panels, and yes, all other speakers in the car. unplug the mids and play the same song at high volume, you will see them moving as well. the thought of them being damaged as a result of normal use (playing music in a car) seems quite remote, to the degree that it probably seems like some sort of an attempt at trolling if you are emailing or calling a manufacturer to ask them if this will damage the speaker. 

everything is working as it is supposed to and the tweeter will be just fine.


----------



## oabeieo

vactor said:


> you realize that SPL means sound PRESSURE level, and that air is a medium that has actual mass. if you move enough air, it will impart a force on all objects that moving mass of air encounters. that includes the roof and glass of a car, interior panels, and yes, all other speakers in the car. unplug the mids and play the same song at high volume, you will see them moving as well. the thought of them being damaged as a result of normal use (playing music in a car) seems quite remote, to the degree that it probably seems like some sort of an attempt at trolling if you are emailing or calling a manufacturer to ask them if this will damage the speaker.
> 
> everything is working as it is supposed to and the tweeter will be just fine.


your crazy..... a 2000$ set of tweeters moving that much..... and I’ve never seen a Tweeter move in my life..... trolling .... really???? I mean , if it was a ****box set of 165a1s or someof the lame focals , I would just go for it

I don’t have that kind of money to throw a a speaker if something happens to it....

subsequently five minutes ago I did finally get an answer from Orca ...

Don’t go past 110 on my sub or it “might” be an issue ..... so we’ll see....


----------



## MrGreen83

Lol I can tell, ur gonna still be messing with this system next year this time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo

MrGreen83 said:


> Lol I can tell, ur gonna still be messing with this system next year this time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i am constantly Messing with stuff  lol


----------



## rton20s

oabeieo said:


> your crazy..... a 2000$ set of tweeters moving that much..... and I’ve never seen a Tweeter move in my life..... trolling .... really???? I mean , if it was a ****box set of 165a1s or someof the lame focals , I would just go for it
> 
> I don’t have that kind of money to throw a a speaker if something happens to it....
> 
> subsequently five minutes ago I did finally get an answer from Orca ...
> 
> Don’t go past 110 on my sub or it “might” be an issue ..... so we’ll see....


110dB on the sub? 

If so, that might not bode well for people who would like to use the BE tweeters in SQ competition vehicles. Did they say if they considered greater than 110dB "abuse" that wouldn't be covered under warranty?


----------



## oabeieo

rton20s said:


> 110dB on the sub?
> 
> If so, that might not bode well for people who would like to use the BE tweeters in SQ competition vehicles. Did they say if they considered greater than 110dB "abuse" that wouldn't be covered under warranty?


yeah that’s what he said

pretty amazing that other guy said trolling... that kind of makes me want to pull my hair out and makes blood shoot from my nipples... I should thank him for the lesson on resonance and spl tho... like duh , 1.5mm from a tweeter is perfectly normal , duh 

I am a Focal dealer, we use tech-support all the time for all of the products we carry at my store... what the **** is wrong with using tech-support ? so now when I have a problem with a remote start , I’m trolling the tech-support people ? that really pisses me off those kind of comments anyway that wasn’t you (sorry just made me itchy) like why would I waste my time trying to get ahold of someone..... like trolling like a pimple nosed nerd wanting to talk to someone.... so do I need permission to ask a question that is manufacture specific? (Sorry those are rhetorical questions meant to vent lol) .....

Orca of course doesn’t return my phone call I had to know a guy that knew the personal cell phone number of one of the employees I texted him and he was gracious enough to write me back and give me some information. Which was really nice of him to do that.

So he said I could have issues if the sub SPL is over 110...

And the main reason why I even brought this up not only because these speakers move way too much but my friend had the old style tweeters and his domes cracked from his sub basically threw away $2000 and had to buy new ones, and this is now the 4th set that I’ve installed that does this..... I get it , good suspension for open back design... focal doesn’t state anything about the maximum movement of the driver and what is safe or not.... etc etc .... or if it’s part of the design (which it could be) idk

So I really don’t know it wasn’t a clear answer but it was some thing from the vendor basically so yeah it’s a little bit concerning to me at least we could risk it and just go for it I mean there’s thousands of pairs out there that I’ve have not heard any problems except for my friend


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I don't care how many things you post. The graph says it all.
> It would be happy crossed under 800. Saying a 6inch driver plays flat to 6k is worse than saying it has authority at 40 hertz. No. No it doesn't.


You realize some home speakers run 6in drivers up to 3k @ 12db slopes which want a smooth response up to 5.5k to work well with a tweet right?


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I understand what he's saying. I also understand you have a 5 way front stage or something.
> Utopia and dayton audio? The fact that the two of you agree is enough for me.


Are you saying that for a speaker set to sound, all the drivers need to be of the same make and series?
If that's the case, tell that do every DIY guy that started this forum that have all run away at this point.
I often ask myself why I come back here, because all the DIY stuff that made the forum great has gone and all that is left (for the most part) are the people who know all things, and want everyone to know it.
I miss @Patrick Bateman and all of his off the wall experimental stuff. That's what made this forum great. Does oabeieos 5 way, linear phase, fir filtered craziness make sense to me? No not really, but that's that's the sort of experimental cool sht that actually keeps this forum from being nothing noobs looking for advice that has been asked 1000 times before (which I don't mind that much) and people asking which 5000w amp they should use for their sq subs.
Sorry, I'll rant elsewhere lol


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Are you saying that for a speaker set to sound, all the drivers need to be of the same make and series?
> If that's the case, tell that do every DIY guy that started this forum that have all run away at this point.
> I often ask myself why I come back here, because all the DIY stuff that made the forum great has gone and all that is left (for the most part) are the people who know all things, and want everyone to know it.
> I miss @Patrick Bateman and all of his off the wall experimental stuff. That's what made this forum great. Does oabeieos 5 way, linear phase, fir filtered craziness make sense to me? No not really, but that's that's the sort of experimental cool sht that actually keeps this forum from being nothing noobs looking for advice that has been asked 1000 times before (which I don't mind that much) and people asking which 5000w amp they should use for their sq subs.
> Sorry, I'll rant elsewhere lol


Not saying anything except for the simple fact that the graph skiz posted has a peak centered at 150 or 200 or whatever and that 800 hertz that graph is down at least 7 or 8 decibels. 
That is not flat. At all. That's the only thing saying.
Do these things sound good? 
Idk. Never heard them. The graph is not flat though. 
And no 6 inch woofer can play up to 6k flat. Physics says so atleast.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> You realize some home speakers run 6in drivers up to 3k @ 12db slopes which want a smooth response up to 5.5k to work well with a tweet right?


Ok...that's no where near the same as saying that same 6 inch plays ruler flat to 6k. 
It's physically impossible for a driver of that size.


----------



## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Are you saying that for a speaker set to sound, all the drivers need to be of the same make and series?
> If that's the case, tell that do every DIY guy that started this forum that have all run away at this point.
> I often ask myself why I come back here, because all the DIY stuff that made the forum great has gone and all that is left (for the most part) are the people who know all things, and want everyone to know it.
> I miss @Patrick Bateman and all of his off the wall experimental stuff. That's what made this forum great. Does oabeieos 5 way, linear phase, fir filtered craziness make sense to me? No not really, but that's that's the sort of experimental cool sht that actually keeps this forum from being nothing noobs looking for advice that has been asked 1000 times before (which I don't mind that much) and people asking which 5000w amp they should use for their sq subs.
> Sorry, I'll rant elsewhere lol


I love it 
Except not experimental, lots of speakers use 5way with linear phase.... check out HK filters .....  

it’s by far the cleanest smoothie I’ve ever drank


----------



## oabeieo

(especially in a car) some locations have different comb filtering patterns then others.... now imagine the ability to use multiple locations on targeted areas to fill those comb filters, and also maximizing power handling and using locations also to create a realistic sound field.

in a 5 way you can do that, some locations will promote some frequencies in the sound field then others, so make each location work only for what it’s best at.

now imagine a crossover network that sums perfectly no matter and acts mostly as a point source by utilizing each speakers dispersion characteristics to build that sound field..

linear crossovers open doors that are otherwise impossible to do.. it just takes a sober approach and the willingness to have lots of speakers in lots of locations and to go through all the steps necessary to determine the cars acoustics and where the issues are and plan , build and execute the design....


----------



## haakono

oabeieo said:


> I am a Focal dealer, we use tech-support all the time for all of the products we carry at my store... what the **** is wrong with using tech-support ?
> 
> Orca of course doesn’t return my phone call I had to know a guy that knew the personal cell phone number of one of the employees I texted him and he was gracious enough to write me back and give me some information. Which was really nice of him to do that.


Nothing wrong with using tech support as a dealer. Bashing on the supplier for not responding in a timely manner, on a open internet forum. Not great business practice.


----------



## oabeieo

long story ..... edited .... I said too much 

It’s all gravy now


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Not saying anything except for the simple fact that the graph skiz posted has a peak centered at 150 or 200 or whatever and that 800 hertz that graph is down at least 7 or 8 decibels.
> That is not flat. At all. That's the only thing saying.
> Do these things sound good?
> Idk. Never heard them. The graph is not flat though.
> And no 6 inch woofer can play up to 6k flat. Physics says so atleast.


Not necessarily true. Cone materials have come a long way, and have pushed up the upper limit frequency on drivers and will continue to do so. Doing this off axis is a whole other kettle of fish.

But that is fairly flat for a speaker, are there drivers with a more flat response? Yeah of course. Are those graphs that look ruler flat heavily smoothed in their FR graph? Maybe, maybe not. 
But now we are getting into the cool things that come of modern technology. You can get away with having a driver that may need a tad of eq to tame because of DSP tech, but may gain a bunch of other sonic benefits from having a design that is optimized in other ways.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Not necessarily true. Cone materials have come a long way, and have pushed up the upper limit frequency on drivers and will continue to do so. Doing this off axis is a whole other kettle of fish.
> 
> But that is fairly flat for a speaker, are there drivers with a more flat response? Yeah of course. Are those graphs that look ruler flat heavily smoothed in their FR graph? Maybe, maybe not.
> But now we are getting into the cool things that come of modern technology. You can get away with having a driver that may need a tad of eq to tame because of DSP tech, but may gain a bunch of other sonic benefits from having a design that is optimized in other ways.


None of that is in question. This focal driver does not play flat from 40 to 6k. It doesn't. It is physically impossible.
That's all I'm saying. And I'll keep saying it.
No matter the cone material or design.


----------



## vactor

i know that i had a previous reply that may have seemed less than complimentary on some levels, and for that i apologize, as it was not my intention to make it seem that way. your frustration may have seeped into the way you describe the issue you are perceiving. 

i can definitely understand that when you call a company for tech support, that you expect a reply within a reasonable time. that sucks that you seem to have these issues. one thing to keep in your considerations is that to covid issues have really affected businesses and been real.

ORCA historically has had Excellent support services and also occasionally incidents such as those you describe. it might be worth contacting focal directly and ask them to reach out to ORCA to get back to you. often, as you know, the squeaky wheels get the grease.

cheers brother!


----------



## oabeieo

these sound excellent now btw


----------



## oabeieo

It is 


Thomasluke7899 said:


> None of that is in question. This focal driver does not play flat from 40 to 6k. It doesn't. It is physically impossible.
> That's all I'm saying. And I'll keep saying it.
> No matter the cone material or design.


It is possible, just not with any degree of fidelity.... I think that’s what your not understanding.... it’s a “here’s how it measures” sort of thing :.... looking at the on and off axis plots and the impedance a designer can get a very good idea how to approach his implementation


----------



## Thomasluke7899

oabeieo said:


> It is
> 
> It is possible, just not with any degree of fidelity.... I think that’s what your not understanding.... it’s a “here’s how it measures” sort of thing :.... looking at the on and off axis plots and the impedance a designer can get a very good idea how to approach his implementation


Say whatever you guys want. It's not possible. Physics says so. Everything else you guys are talking about is just snake oil. Designed this way or that. Doesn't matter. It is physically impossible for a 6 inch driver to play 6k and 40hertz at the same spl. Impossible.


----------



## oabeieo

haakono said:


> Nothing wrong with using tech support as a dealer. Bashing on the supplier for not responding in a timely manner, on a open internet forum. Not great business practice.


 your right not good business practice... neither is ignoring your partners.





vactor said:


> i know that i had a previous reply that may have seemed less than complimentary on some levels, and for that i apologize, as it was not my intention to make it seem that way. your frustration may have seeped into the way you describe the issue you are perceiving.
> 
> i can definitely understand that when you call a company for tech support, that you expect a reply within a reasonable time. that sucks that you seem to have these issues. one thing to keep in your considerations is that to covid issues have really affected businesses and been real.
> 
> ORCA historically has had Excellent support services and also occasionally incidents such as those you describe. it might be worth contacting focal directly and ask them to reach out to ORCA to get back to you. often, as you know, the squeaky wheels get the grease.
> 
> cheers brother!


theres a lot of things that could be considered unprofessional.... without knowing the full story....

Long and short is , I have a connect now. He was professional, and helpful. I’m over it , didn’t expect to have this conversation actually. Just that guy that said “trolling “ started me on a rant that I shouldn’t have played into.... so now I’m deleting posts and just want to move on.... I’m good with orca now. this goes way before Covid.

so let’s move on now.... I had to think how to answer these.... this time I won’t delete them.... it’s all gravy bay bee

and I’ll be clear ... I have never had a issue with orca ... there great! Always have been, it’s the tech support line. Whoever that is just won’t call anyone back....


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> (especially in a car) some locations have different comb filtering patterns then others.... now imagine the ability to use multiple locations on targeted areas to fill those comb filters, and also maximizing power handling and using locations also to create a realistic sound field.
> 
> in a 5 way you can do that, some locations will promote some frequencies in the sound field then others, so make each location work only for what it’s best at.
> 
> now imagine a crossover network that sums perfectly no matter and acts mostly as a point source by utilizing each speakers dispersion characteristics to build that sound field..
> 
> linear crossovers open doors that are otherwise impossible to do.. it just takes a sober approach and the willingness to have lots of speakers in lots of locations and to go through all the steps necessary to determine the cars acoustics and where the issues are and plan , build and execute the design....


Oh yeah, I would love to have the dsp compute power and taps to make that happen on my 3way. Let along a 5 way lol.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Say whatever you guys want. It's not possible. Physics says so. Everything else you guys are talking about is just snake oil. Designed this way or that. Doesn't matter. It is physically impossible for a 6 inch driver to play 6k and 40hertz at the same spl. Impossible.


What makes it impossible? I'm curious as to the reasoning.


----------



## SkizeR

Picassotheimpaler said:


> What makes it impossible? I'm curious as to the reasoning.


because i said it. actually, its not what i said, but he likes to twist things around for some reason. The +/-3db range on the focal is 40-6k. Thats common for many 6.5's


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> What makes it impossible? I'm curious as to the reasoning.


That's all I'm doing. Posting a link. I can't explain a college course in an internet post. 





The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones | Vandersteen Audio


Because You Need To Know The Truth About Pistonic Driver Cones … Bringing paper cones to a super-speaker today is like bringing a horse and buggy to a Formula One race. Materials...



www.vandersteen.com


----------



## Thomasluke7899

My bad...that one has good info too. 
But this Intermodulation Distortion


----------



## vactor

Thomasluke7899 said:


> My bad...that one has good info too.
> But this Intermodulation Distortion


no moving coil speaker does NOT have IM distortion. enjoy your plasma speakers . but this seems a bit ... specific to use as criticism for a speaker with a frequency response as + - 3db which is a common method for determining the "flat" frequency response range of a speaker in the industry. to each their own


----------



## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Oh yeah, I would love to have the dsp compute power and taps to make that happen on my 3way. Let along a 5 way lol.


haha I’m a wierd one I tell ya.....

But it’s years in the making. And making compromise after compromise... where are the compromise just doesn’t cut it for me anymore. Make no mistake there’s always a compromise. Definitely found a way to at least cut some of them out without having an adverse sacrifice that goes with it.

but really it comes down to knowing your cars interior acoustic response and how it behaves and what each location that you have available or can fabricate how that location behaves, and coming up with a system design that uses all of it together and then getting it to work together.

and being perfectly honest, a car that has good acoustics a regular three-way can perform just as good as my five way, it’s my car that acoustically sucks, I’ve had cars in the past with a two-way front that’s been as good as betteI’ve had cars in the past with a two-way front that’s been as good or better.. this Honda really fought me. It’s working good now but this is three entire separate builds later to lead up to what it is now. Lol 

it’s a lot of fun


----------



## Thomasluke7899

vactor said:


> no moving coil speaker does NOT have IM distortion. enjoy your plasma speakers . but this seems a bit ... specific to use as criticism for a speaker with a frequency response as + - 3db which is a common method for determining the "flat" frequency response range of a speaker in the industry. to each their own


Sir...this is screen shot from the link that you obviously didn't bother to read.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Sir...this is screen shot from the link that you obviously didn't bother to read.
> View attachment 311526


Still not sure how this is relevant tbh. Like Victor said, all traditional speakers are going to have imd, and that doesn't have an direct correlation to bandwidth 
It doesn't show an impossibility for extra wide band drivers.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> haha I’m a wierd one I tell ya.....
> 
> But it’s years in the making. And making compromise after compromise... where are the compromise just doesn’t cut it for me anymore. Make no mistake there’s always a compromise. Definitely found a way to at least cut some of them out without having an adverse sacrifice that goes with it.
> 
> but really it comes down to knowing your cars interior acoustic response and how it behaves and what each location that you have available or can fabricate how that location behaves, and coming up with a system design that uses all of it together and then getting it to work together.
> 
> and being perfectly honest, a car that has good acoustics a regular three-way can perform just as good as my five way, it’s my car that acoustically sucks, I’ve had cars in the past with a two-way front that’s been as good as betteI’ve had cars in the past with a two-way front that’s been as good or better.. this Honda really fought me. It’s working good now but this is three entire separate builds later to lead up to what it is now. Lol
> 
> it’s a lot of fun


What model Honda is it??
I just love the possibilities thay FIR filters and crossovers offer. It would be very cool to see how changing corresponding levels of mating drivers wouldn't change things what so ever.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Still not sure how this is relevant tbh. Like Victor said, all traditional speakers are going to have imd, and that doesn't have an direct correlation to bandwidth
> It doesn't show an impossibility for extra wide band drivers.


Well...just cause you don't understand something....that makes it irrelevant? Since you can't see how it is relevant maybe you should read it again. It happens to all drivers. You can't beat physics. Die on your hill If you want. 
This focal driver cannot play flat from 40 to 6k. Impossible.


----------



## UNBROKEN

Did y’all figure out who could piss the furthest yet?


----------



## MrGreen83

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Thomasluke7899

UNBROKEN said:


> Did y’all figure out who could piss the furthest yet?


I'm still drinking water....give me a min


----------



## vactor

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Well...just cause you don't understand something....that makes it irrelevant? Since you can't see how it is relevant maybe you should read it again. It happens to all drivers. You can't beat physics. Die on your hill If you want.
> This focal driver cannot play flat from 40 to 6k. Impossible.


let's back up a step. what definition of "playing flat" are you using? i think that may answer a lot of the questinos about differences of opinion on if a speaker plays a certain range acoustically flat in response ...


----------



## Thomasluke7899

vactor said:


> let's back up a step. what definition of "playing flat" are you using? i think that may answer a lot of the questinos about differences of opinion on if a speaker plays a certain range acoustically flat in response ...


Around 3 dB of variation. It you look at the graph that Mr skiz posted....I don't wanna go back to get the exact frequencies. 
But around 150 it's at like 93 or 94. Follow that to around 800 and it's down to like 86 or 85. 
If my opinion that's not really. Following that it steadily rises until the peak around 5 or 6 k. 
My point is that the guy with the 5 way set up initially said that they sounded good up until around 800 hertz. Also he stated that in his opinion they really wanted to be midbass drivers. Once he applied the eq and different xovers he said they were better. Or something along those lines. 
I was just saying the frequency graph along with other things....it makes sense. That's all. 
I don't remember what lead to this but....
A 6inch driver can't play 40 and 6k flat. Physics. 
By the time a 6 inch driver moves enough to play 40 hertz at the same spl as even say 1k the movement from the cone itself act as a lowpass filter.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Where that frequency is can be affected by the size of the dust cap, shape of the curve of the cone and the material. But no matter what a 6 inch driver 
Will never play flat from 40 to 6k.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Well...just cause you don't understand something....that makes it irrelevant? Since you can't see how it is relevant maybe you should read it again. It happens to all drivers. You can't beat physics. Die on your hill If you want.
> This focal driver cannot play flat from 40 to 6k. Impossible.


I'm not gonna die on the hill, if you can prove to me otherwise than I would like to know. I'm here to gather knowledge and pass it on. Nothing more.
I just see nothing there that proves your point. Please elaborate how it does, I would truely like to know.

But the general concensus here seems to be that what your stating in incorrect. So you are either too lazy to do anything but make a link, even though you are fine with posting every 15 minutes on 10 different threads. Or you read something somewhere once and don't really understand it yourself, and are using it to seem superior.

Please prove me wrong, cause I would genuinely like to know why it is "physically impossible"


----------



## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> What model Honda is it??
> I just love the possibilities thay FIR filters and crossovers offer. It would be very cool to see how changing corresponding levels of mating drivers wouldn't change things what so ever.


2012 fit

yeah they do sum perfectly (once all setup requirements are met)

as far as levels, some phase changes as level goes up and down... but it doesn’t require “phase tracking” Like a IIr filter does, so no matter where they “cross over” it will be in alignment (as there’s zero shift through the crossover)

so it’s literally like playing with the slopes and amount of overlap you like that sounds good/correct. (Using an overlapping filter that takes things down by -3db throughout the overlap)


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I'm not gonna die on the hill, if you can prove to me otherwise than I would like to know. I'm here to gather knowledge and pass it on. Nothing more.
> I just see nothing there that proves your point. Please elaborate how it does, I would truely like to know.
> 
> But the general concensus here seems to be that what your stating in incorrect. So you are either too lazy to do anything but make a link, even though you are fine with posting every 15 minutes on 10 different threads. Or you read something somewhere once and don't really understand it yourself, and are using it to seem superior.
> 
> Please prove me wrong, cause I would genuinely like to know why it is "physically impossible"


The distortion caused by the amount of movement a 6inch driver has to move would be so much that it would sound like garbage. 
The two links I posted said as much. The screen shot in particular.
Here it again. What do you thing that roughness looks like on a frequency response graph? Not a flat line or anything close to it. This entire topic was covered back in 2012 when the Anarchy midbass came on the scene. But you guys keep thinking what you want.


----------



## oabeieo

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Around 3 dB of variation. It you look at the graph that Mr skiz posted....I don't wanna go back to get the exact frequencies.
> But around 150 it's at like 93 or 94. Follow that to around 800 and it's down to like 86 or 85.
> If my opinion that's not really. Following that it steadily rises until the peak around 5 or 6 k.
> My point is that the guy with the 5 way set up initially said that they sounded good up until around 800 hertz. Also he stated that in his opinion they really wanted to be midbass drivers. Once he applied the eq and different xovers he said they were better. Or something along those lines.
> I was just saying the frequency graph along with other things....it makes sense. That's all.
> I don't remember what lead to this but....
> A 6inch driver can't play 40 and 6k flat. Physics.
> By the time a 6 inch driver moves enough to play 40 hertz at the same spl as even say 1k the movement from the cone itself act as a lowpass filter.





oabeieo said:


> Will this 6 be happy crossed at 1k or 1.2k?
> 
> from what I’m hearing it almost sounds like it wants to be a bass speaker.... do you think I’m off base thinking that... i’m still in the first impression stage
> 
> 
> Edit : Yeah I do need to give it some time you’re right I just did a door speaker that radically changed a week into it completely measured totally different


i didn’t say they sound good only to 800hz ,
I said it seems to want to be a midbass more, and it sounds a little hollow...

And in context, it was my first run at them, and I was getting others ideas and impressions. Skizer has them and I trust his input. He won’t make **** up and I can count on that. 

after 1 day (oh my god one day) I have them purring like a kitten all the way past 800 to 1.4K and they couldn’t sound smoother actually....


----------



## Thomasluke7899

oabeieo said:


> i didn’t say they sound good only to 800hz ,
> I said it seems to want to be a midbass more, and it sounds a little hollow...
> 
> And in context, it was my first run at them, and I was getting others ideas and impressions. Skizer has them and I trust his thoughts things..
> 
> after 1 day (oh my god one day) I have them purring like a kitten all the way past 800 to 1.4K and they couldn’t sound smoother actually....


Ok that's reasonable. Your initial thoughts follow along with the graph skiz posted as well. 
but it is Also a hell of long way from 6k. I mean there are 3 and 4 inch midranges that have issues at 6k.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> The distortion caused by the amount of movement a 6inch driver has to move would be so much that it would sound like garbage.
> The two links I posted said as much. The screen shot in particular.
> Here it again. What do you thing that roughness looks like on a frequency response graph? Not a flat line or anything close to it. This entire topic was covered back in 2012 when the Anarchy midbass came on the scene. But you guys keep thinking what you want.
> View attachment 311541


I went back and re-read my post, a bit more rude than intended. Sorry. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't see it as an issue in all cases, making it "physically impossible".
The anarchy is a completely different design. It is meant to me a midbass/woofer. Not a midrange. It's designed for that purpose and sacrifices things in order do so. Like you said in a previous post, that's where the design comes into effect as far as the dust cap, cone, ect.
As far as the cone movement, I still don't see that as an issue. In some cases yes. If you are looking to get significant spl from a single speaker and are pushing into several mm travel than yes, that will come into effect and probably make it sound rough at that point. But that still doesn't mean it is impossible, it just means it's not gonna sound good while doing it. But if you don't run the speaker into significant travel, than it should no longer be an issue. Yes it may not be loud, but that's when you use several drivers to compensate. Might not be ideal for your use case, but that doesn't mean someone doesn't want to use them in a line array.

Maybe I'm just stuck on the definite term of "impossible" here.

Either way, I'm done cluttering the thread with OT stuff like this conversation. Sorry everyone.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I went back and re-read my post, a bit more rude than intended. Sorry. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't see it as an issue in all cases, making it "physically impossible".
> The anarchy is a completely different design. It is meant to me a midbass/woofer. Not a midrange. It's designed for that purpose and sacrifices things in order do so. Like you said in a previous post, that's where the design comes into effect as far as the dust cap, cone, ect.
> As far as the cone movement, I still don't see that as an issue. In some cases yes. If you are looking to get significant spl from a single speaker and are pushing into several mm travel than yes, that will come into effect and probably make it sound rough at that point. But that still doesn't mean it is impossible, it just means it's not gonna sound good while doing it. But if you don't run the speaker into significant travel, than it should no longer be an issue. Yes it may not be loud, but that's when you use several drivers to compensate. Might not be ideal for your use case, but that doesn't mean someone doesn't want to use them in a line array.
> 
> Maybe I'm just stuck on the definite term of "impossible" here.
> 
> Either way, I'm done cluttering the thread with OT stuff like this conversation. Sorry everyone.


It's all good. I did say impossible a lot.


----------



## oabeieo

And I’m also sorry for be rude to anyone I may have offended.... 
And also sorry to the guy that said “trolling”.


----------



## oabeieo

this is a good read on the filtering technique I used..... 



http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Horbach-Keele%20Presentation%20Part%202%20V4.pdf


----------



## oabeieo

Like my 3.5 to 6 crossover, it’s a ratio of 2.5:1 the 6 plays more then the 3.5 of the crossover area... the 3 has very steep slopes where the 6 is more gradual

as the 6 narrows the 3.5 is turning on and it happens over about 300hz range from 1.34k to 1.6k where 1.4 is the crossover.

being at different angles, and separated by 4” I could use this calculator (or one like it) and find the critical frequency and convert the inches to radians and to degrees from inches to frequency...

I’ve only really done this on the 3.5 and 6 , I have LRs and BWs on everything else (for now) until I understand it more. Because the shape of the one of the filters is very unusual and has a peak in it.... I’m still learning what that does before I implement it

like I told skizr earlier, I did all the calculations based on a lot of different speakers polars andwhat I do understand.... I really need to talk to an HK expert and get better insight
But so far it sounds great 









Frequency Conversion Calculator - Inch Calculator


Use our frequency conversion calculator to quickly convert frequency measurements, including hertz, RPM, and radians per second




www.inchcalculator.com


----------



## oabeieo

The blu is the 3.5 the red is the 6 phase is flat


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> The blu is the 3.5 the red is the 6 phase is flat
> 
> 
> View attachment 311600


Yeah, that is just crazy to me. I absolutely love it.
It goes against everything in my head, but it theoretically should (and apparently does) work.
I wish I could take a close look at and listen to your setup!
What are you using for your fir capabilities?


----------



## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Yeah, that is just crazy to me. I absolutely love it.
> It goes against everything in my head, but it theoretically should (and apparently does) work.
> I wish I could take a close look at and listen to your setup!
> What are you using for your fir capabilities?


i have 5 dsps

I have 3 2x4hds all optical input at 96k
Upstream is a 1to3 active optical splitter, upstream of that is a OpenDrc/ddrc22 Dirac live

I sometimes use the opendrc sharc or I use a Dirac sharc , mostly the Dirac shark
As everything is dialed in before it gets to Dirac. Dirac does the main correction, and I build fir crossovers and tune them in the 2x4hd pre Dirac ....I only use 4 of the 5 processors tho 
The 5th is a swap between my own room correcting and Diracs 

It’s a killer setup .....


----------



## oabeieo

Click me for Spotify with Ms 


that’s a track ^ that the Ms really do a very dam good job at.... it’s a complicated piece , the claps are near filed and the sirens are right in the reflection area where and and off axis behavior needs to be symmetrical... the vocal is far field and it all plays simultaneously....

These speakers replicate this extraordinary well..... and it’s a catchy jingle  

so..... anyone have a track they can share with me that does well on your Ms ?


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

I got around to installing one of my wm3.5s today in place of my gb2.5. Quickly modified the eq (only 1 more band running 400-4k) and an immediately can tell quite a difference on just the 1 side.

A fair bit more detail noticed. Particularly in more complex songs with many instruments. In songs like "Get it On" on the album Live from the Inside by Brian Culbertson for example. With the GBs and GB side, the backing instruments sometimes get lost in the background and only pop out enough to hear individual notes with detail every now and again. From the wm 3.5, that is not the case. Those backing instruments are there and don't meld into each other. 










Unfortunatly I mis-measured for one of my baffles, so I have to alter the .step file and send it back over to the glass filled Nylon SLS printing service to have a new one made. Luckily, I think I can rig the second one to work in the mean time with a bit of work.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I got around to installing one of my wm3.5s today in place of my gb2.5. Quickly modified the eq (only 1 more band running 400-4k) and an immediately can tell quite a difference on just the 1 side.
> 
> A fair bit more detail noticed. Particularly in more complex songs with many instruments. In songs like "Get it On" on the album Live from the Inside by Brian Culbertson for example. With the GBs and GB side, the backing instruments sometimes get lost in the background and only pop out enough to hear individual notes with detail every now and again. From the wm 3.5, that is not the case. Those backing instruments are there and don't meld into each other.
> 
> View attachment 311763
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly I mis-measured for one of my baffles, so I have to alter the .step file and send it back over to the glass filled Nylon SLS printing service to have a new one made. Luckily, I think I can rig the second one to work in the mean time with a bit of work.


Yooooo...your the guy was putting mids in the ac vent?
Cause that sure looks like a mid in an ac vent. 
Anyway if you are how that work out? Build log?


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Yooooo...your the guy was putting mids in the ac vent?
> Cause that sure looks like a mid in an ac vent.
> Anyway if you are how that work out? Build log?


Sure enough!
Haven't had the time to be able so sit down and put together everything, but I have pictures from beginning to end. All the experiments, and iterations, measurements ect.
I plan on putting one together eventually

Cliff notes are that it was absolutely a trade off. Luckily I live in the NE and since I blocked off the side vents, the other vents push out 2x the air. So loosing the vents ended up being no big deal.
On the other end, the staging is a good bit wider than it was, I lost some efficiency from the corner loading of the dash, but it makes the total power response seem more even since the amount of EQ on both sides is nearly identical compared to there being quite a difference between the sides before. And details seem to be much more apparent. Even though the rta looks the same, the upper mids seem more "precise", I could do something similar with the previous setup, and the mids and tweets crossover as they should, unlike before.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Sure enough!
> Haven't had the time to be able so sit down and put together everything, but I have pictures from beginning to end. All the experiments, and iterations, measurements ect.
> I plan on putting one together eventually


Well....if you already have everything......theoretically speaking....you _could_ start posting stuff like...idk...tonight.


----------



## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I got around to installing one of my wm3.5s today in place of my gb2.5. Quickly modified the eq (only 1 more band running 400-4k) and an immediately can tell quite a difference on just the 1 side.
> 
> A fair bit more detail noticed. Particularly in more complex songs with many instruments. In songs like "Get it On" on the album Live from the Inside by Brian Culbertson for example. With the GBs and GB side, the backing instruments sometimes get lost in the background and only pop out enough to hear individual notes with detail every now and again. From the wm 3.5, that is not the case. Those backing instruments are there and don't meld into each other.
> 
> View attachment 311763
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly I mis-measured for one of my baffles, so I have to alter the .step file and send it back over to the glass filled Nylon SLS printing service to have a new one made. Luckily, I think I can rig the second one to work in the mean time with a bit of work.


i just tried that track, excellent one also for detail.... and also a good jingle! 
i played it twice  !

need more good demo music! Do you use Spotify? If so pm me amd let’s exchange Playlists , mine are public and I’ve spent years making them


----------



## oabeieo

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Sure enough!
> Haven't had the time to be able so sit down and put together everything, but I have pictures from beginning to end. All the experiments, and iterations, measurements ect.
> I plan on putting one together eventually
> 
> Cliff notes are that it was absolutely a trade off. Luckily I live in the NE and since I blocked off the side vents, the other vents push out 2x the air. So loosing the vents ended up being no big deal.
> On the other end, the staging is a good bit wider than it was, I lost some efficiency from the corner loading of the dash, but it makes the total power response seem more even since the amount of EQ on both sides is nearly identical compared to there being quite a difference between the sides before. And details seem to be much more apparent. Even though the rta looks the same, the upper mids seem more "precise", I could do something similar with the previous setup, and the mids and tweets crossover as they should, unlike before.


yeah the upper mids are to die for.... man what a good driver....

I love how yours are mounted.... that’s got to sound killer! (My side vents are always shut I know what you mean the middle are plenty) 

on axis, right height, yeah!!!


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> yeah the upper mids are to die for.... man what a good driver....
> 
> I love how yours are mounted.... that’s got to sound killer! (My side vents are always shut I know what you mean the middle are plenty)
> 
> on axis, right height, yeah!!!


So far it's working out very well! Very little EQ needed, and nearly flat through the entire passband. Had some GB25s in the dash before hand, and had to do some heavy EQ work that differed heavily between sides. Couldn't ever get it quite right.
I actually use tidal, still happy to share them though!


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Well....if you already have everything......theoretically speaking....you _could_ start posting stuff like...idk...tonight.


Gotta upload a bunch of photos off the phone. I can start working on it weds or Thurs. Girlie will be out all night, so plenty of time lol


----------



## UNBROKEN

Picassotheimpaler said:


> So far it's working out very well! Very little EQ needed, and nearly flat through the entire passband. Had some GB25s in the dash before hand, and had to do some heavy EQ work that differed heavily between sides. Couldn't ever get it quite right.
> I actually use tidal, still happy to share them though!


I’m always looking for things to add to Tidal if you don’t mind sharing.


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

This is a video that covers focals manufacturing methods on the m line as well as others.
Watch from 2:20 to around 20 min in to see the full process with the woofers.


----------



## oabeieo

Edited


----------



## oabeieo

If anyone wants to add good SQ songs I created a collaboration playlist anyone can add songs to 

please fill it up !!!

DIYma collaborated playlist SQ


----------



## bertholomey

Picassotheimpaler said:


> I got around to installing one of my wm3.5s today in place of my gb2.5. Quickly modified the eq (only 1 more band running 400-4k) and an immediately can tell quite a difference on just the 1 side.
> 
> A fair bit more detail noticed. Particularly in more complex songs with many instruments. In songs like "Get it On" on the album Live from the Inside by Brian Culbertson for example. With the GBs and GB side, the backing instruments sometimes get lost in the background and only pop out enough to hear individual notes with detail every now and again. From the wm 3.5, that is not the case. Those backing instruments are there and don't meld into each other.
> 
> View attachment 311763
> 
> 
> Unfortunatly I mis-measured for one of my baffles, so I have to alter the .step file and send it back over to the glass filled Nylon SLS printing service to have a new one made. Luckily, I think I can rig the second one to work in the mean time with a bit of work.


So funny! When I went to my first show with my BRZ, Steve Cook took one look at those vents and half jokingly stated he would put mid ranges there. Always curious of what that would have sounded like - good to hear that you are having success. I’ll be interested to see that build thread 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## kenny5555

Curious and cant find info on any recommended enclosure size/type for the 3.5 WM. What are you all doing about the back signal?


----------



## oabeieo

kenny5555 said:


> Curious and cant find info on any recommended enclosure size/type for the 3.5 WM. What are you all doing about the back signal?


Idk about everyone else, I’m IB blowing into sub-dash , with some thinsulate lining and a touch of modeling clay around the Dynamat lined duraglass milkshake covered fiberglass housing


----------



## oabeieo

Why an enclosure? What are your goals with it ?
What frequencies are you trying to get out of it that would need an enclosure?

if your trying to do a midrange, an enclosure will more then likely just add ringing and coloration... it’s a midQ so you could go fairly small, if it’s too small you have a peak before fb , it would add ringing and push the phase up, so I’m not sure as to why your consider an enclosure

I can help you model something, but I need to know what your goals are , and what your planning to do with it , how low do you want to play it...

I wouldn’t go lower then 200 with any significant power.

I have a set in my sound room in roughly 1cuft and it rings horribly at 300hz

The 250 Hz two 500 Hz range is really delicate as far as colorations you really can’t use EQ to push peaks down without adverse effects, like a pod that rings at 100 you can sorta get away with (with extra emphasis on sorta)

let us know


----------



## Picassotheimpaler

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Sure enough!
> Haven't had the time to be able so sit down and put together everything, but I have pictures from beginning to end. All the experiments, and iterations, measurements ect.
> I plan on putting one together eventually
> 
> Cliff notes are that it was absolutely a trade off. Luckily I live in the NE and since I blocked off the side vents, the other vents push out 2x the air. So loosing the vents ended up being no big deal.
> On the other end, the staging is a good bit wider than it was, I lost some efficiency from the corner loading of the dash, but it makes the total power response seem more even since the amount of EQ on both sides is nearly identical compared to there being quite a difference between the sides before. And details seem to be much more apparent. Even though the rta looks the same, the upper mids seem more "precise", I could do something similar with the previous setup, and the mids and tweets crossover as they should, unlike before.


Sorry guys, been a busy week. Much unforseen overtime. Finally got the second mw3.5 installed in a temporary fashion while I wait for the new mounting ring to be made along with all the pictures uploaded to the computer. Gonna do some quick tuning and will be ready to put together a log.


----------



## kenny5555

oabeieo said:


> Why an enclosure? What are your goals with it ?
> What frequencies are you trying to get out of it that would need an enclosure?
> 
> if your trying to do a midrange, an enclosure will more then likely just add ringing and coloration... it’s a midQ so you could go fairly small, if it’s too small you have a peak before fb , it would add ringing and push the phase up, so I’m not sure as to why your consider an enclosure
> 
> I can help you model something, but I need to know what your goals are , and what your planning to do with it , how low do you want to play it...
> 
> I wouldn’t go lower then 200 with any significant power.
> 
> I have a set in my sound room in roughly 1cuft and it rings horribly at 300hz
> 
> The 250 Hz two 500 Hz range is really delicate as far as colorations you really can’t use EQ to push peaks down without adverse effects, like a pod that rings at 100 you can sorta get away with (with extra emphasis on sorta)
> 
> let us know


 Currently I have the BE scans 3004/604000 and AP RAM2a on the dash in pods in the corners (2011 CRV). I'm looking for fuller lower mid frequencies. from your description the 3m would be perfect. I could make a new pod that would open the back and seal/dump the rear signal down the original speaker hole. This would be IB with the rear signal into the dash as you described. the pods attach to the stock grill and snap out and disconnect in minutes.


----------



## oabeieo

kenny5555 said:


> Currently I have the BE scans 3004/604000 and AP RAM2a on the dash in pods in the corners (2011 CRV). I'm looking for fuller lower mid frequencies. from your description the 3m would be perfect. I could make a new pod that would open the back and seal/dump the rear signal down the original speaker hole. This would be IB with the rear signal into the dash as you described. the pods attach to the stock grill and snap out and disconnect in minutes.
> 
> View attachment 312316


Perfect! Do that .... you’ll love it


----------



## oabeieo

So did a really good tune on everything last nite.... super careful firs, (and btw these drivers needed almost nothing as far as driver eq for stop band peaks. They were uniform no matter what slope I threw at them. Quite impressive. Minimum phase through the crossover is really important... these have some magic dust in them for this.

overall sound quality is quite good... except. (Nick I need you for this one)

the 6wm amd the 8wm both have a characteristic sound that is a little dry. It sounds a tiny bit almost spitty, but it’s not.

on some drum synth beats the beat isn’t totally smooth, it almost sounds like wood knocking. Mine do this, the ones in my store do this, amd the three other sets I’ve installed do this....

after a careful listen, it sounds almost like these sounds are actually part of the music (maybe) and it’s just good detail, at other times it sounds like wood dowels clacking, with a spitty overtone. But it stays perfectly clean, does it at all volumes, no clipping what so ever. Even tuned with Dirac still does it... it’s the speaker..... some songs that don’t do that are fantastic sounding... it’s just certain, dry synth beats that I’m hearing it....

Anyone (nick) know what I’m talking about and have any input good or bad?

I also noticed the 6wm bottoming easy. It pushed it back to 250HP with a 2nd order slope. It moves only about 4mm.... I can’t cross it at 80. It makes horrible popping. To cross at 80, you have to have perfect reinforcement. If your driving the response at all it will bottom out.... the 6wm really is more of a midrange/midbass without the woofer aspect. Maybe that’s a poor way to describe it, it seems more like, it’s only really designed to work within its parameters... like everything is tightly held together and as soon as the driver is pushed even a little more it goes to ****. There a lot like a dynaudio in this regard. These really remind me of esotec drivers a lot...(the 6&8)

the 3.5 just loves being crossed (now at 1200hz) up high.... I tried 400,600,800,1000,1200,1300,1400
1200 was the best..... no doubt. This one just excels up high, the 6wm was noticeably smoother under 1k. The 3.5wm in my humble opinion just doesn’t have the cone size amd motor to play under 1k and be able to keep its composure at very high levels. At moderate levels, the 3.5wm was good down to about 300hz.... when I put it at 400hz , I would turn it up loud and the vocal wasn’t super smooth. Just couldn’t get enough energy from the small cone to fill those large frequencies. Although it would do it with hi fidelity, it just started to simply get strained when pushed super hard.
So 1200 is my number with this one...

If i had a 3 way front stage and was using the 3.5wm as a midbass/midrange (300-3000) and had a 6wm that was farther away and down low, I would definitely be experimenting with some 1st order slopes and trying very hard to get 1st order on this one. I would probably start at 1k BW6 and put an octave separation in the “crossover “ and put the 6wm at 500hzBW6 and work the sums carefully..... I definitely would not run for a 250hz LR4 for this one, not after last night. That’s definitely where I would start and go from there and change things up until I get it right. (Which could be a LR4 at 250, who knows) I just would definitely try to get the sound field correct with a 1st order sum first. And go from there


----------



## bbfoto

^Interesting observations. But any speaker goes to Sh!t when pushed beyond it's limits.  What kind of levels are you trying to achieve???

I've also experimented a fair bit with "unconventional" X/O's with these as well. Of course, with any alignment there are compromises in at least one aspect or another. So I'm back to a bit more traditional X/O's overall. I'd have to go out and check as I can't remember what I settled on...I tried way too many different combinations to keep them all straight! 😊

Yeah, the WM drivers are all pretty much excursion limited. That's my only real major qualm with them other than their cost. There's not a whole lot of xmax there to begin with, and _barely_ any xmech beyond their xmax. But that's one reasom they are so good and so linear within their given limits. It's a chosen design compromise.

In place of the 6WM, and/or 8WM, I would suggest trying the Purifi 6.5 (7") if you really want to get down close to 80Hz with solid output. Obviously, the mounting depth can be prohibitive compared to the WM's. And no, it's not _perfect_ for the application either. But it's definitely got more usable throw and remains linear throughout that wider range with fantastic midbass AND midrange attributes. And it's less expensive than either of the WM's.

What particular Synth Drum or Synth Bass tracks are you referring to??? The "dry/woody" and "spitty" qualities (opposite subjective terms IMO) may be due to the actual synth that was used in the recording, and/or how it was captured for the recording (D.I. vs mic'd amp/speaker). There are thousands of synths, keyboard synths, & drum machines, and each have varying qualities of oscillators/generators/samples. Some of the 80's and 90's synths had distinct sample libraries and "sounds", but were not very high quality and had noticeable artifacts.


Also, I meant to post this earlier, but a few tracks off the top of my head that I use that really demonstrate the detail/clarity/separation/realism/3D imaging of the WM's are the two "_Percussion Ensemble - Improvisation_" tracks as well as the solo _Glockenspiel_ track from the Stockfisch Records ''AYA" Authentic Audio Check SACD. The other tracks are excellent as well.

Also, _Alon Mor's ''Presudeos'' and ''Los Recuerdos'' from the ''Long Awaited Journey'' album_ .

And "_My Name_" from Lhasa De Sela's ''The Living Road'' album.

There are A LOT more, but those come immediately to mind.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

oabeieo said:


> So did a really good tune on everything last nite.... super careful firs, (and btw these drivers needed almost nothing as far as driver eq for stop band peaks. They were uniform no matter what slope I threw at them. Quite impressive. Minimum phase through the crossover is really important... these have some magic dust in them for this.
> 
> overall sound quality is quite good... except. (Nick I need you for this one)
> 
> the 6wm amd the 8wm both have a characteristic sound that is a little dry. It sounds a tiny bit almost spitty, but it’s not.
> 
> on some drum synth beats the beat isn’t totally smooth, it almost sounds like wood knocking. Mine do this, the ones in my store do this, amd the three other sets I’ve installed do this....
> 
> after a careful listen, it sounds almost like these sounds are actually part of the music (maybe) and it’s just good detail, at other times it sounds like wood dowels clacking, with a spitty overtone. But it stays perfectly clean, does it at all volumes, no clipping what so ever. Even tuned with Dirac still does it... it’s the speaker..... some songs that don’t do that are fantastic sounding... it’s just certain, dry synth beats that I’m hearing it....
> 
> Anyone (nick) know what I’m talking about and have any input good or bad?
> 
> I also noticed the 6wm bottoming easy. It pushed it back to 250HP with a 2nd order slope. It moves only about 4mm.... I can’t cross it at 80. It makes horrible popping. To cross at 80, you have to have perfect reinforcement. If your driving the response at all it will bottom out.... the 6wm really is more of a midrange/midbass without the woofer aspect. Maybe that’s a poor way to describe it, it seems more like, it’s only really designed to work within its parameters... like everything is tightly held together and as soon as the driver is pushed even a little more it goes to ****. There a lot like a dynaudio in this regard. These really remind me of esotec drivers a lot...(the 6&8)
> 
> the 3.5 just loves being crossed (now at 1200hz) up high.... I tried 400,600,800,1000,1200,1300,1400
> 1200 was the best..... no doubt. This one just excels up high, the 6wm was noticeably smoother under 1k. The 3.5wm in my humble opinion just doesn’t have the cone size amd motor to play under 1k and be able to keep its composure at very high levels. At moderate levels, the 3.5wm was good down to about 300hz.... when I put it at 400hz , I would turn it up loud and the vocal wasn’t super smooth. Just couldn’t get enough energy from the small cone to fill those large frequencies. Although it would do it with hi fidelity, it just started to simply get strained when pushed super hard.
> So 1200 is my number with this one...
> 
> If i had a 3 way front stage and was using the 3.5wm as a midbass/midrange (300-3000) and had a 6wm that was farther away and down low, I would definitely be experimenting with some 1st order slopes and trying very hard to get 1st order on this one. I would probably start at 1k BW6 and put an octave separation in the “crossover “ and put the 6wm at 500hzBW6 and work the sums carefully..... I definitely would not run for a 250hz LR4 for this one, not after last night. That’s definitely where I would start and go from there and change things up until I get it right. (Which could be a LR4 at 250, who knows) I just would definitely try to get the sound field correct with a 1st order sum first. And go from there


How loud is loud? I have no experience with these what so ever. 
But a 3.5 inch mid doesn't sound good crossed lower than 12k?
And a 6 inch at 250? And it still moves an estimated 4mm? Crossed at 250? 
What spl levels are you achieving with a 6 5 crossed at 250? Like spl numbers?


----------



## oabeieo

bbfoto said:


> ^Interesting observations. But any speaker goes to Sh!t when pushed beyond it's limits.  What kind of levels are you trying to achieve???
> 
> I've also experimented a fair bit with "unconventional" X/O's with these as well. Of course, with any alignment there are compromises in at least one aspect or another. So I'm back to a bit more traditional X/O's overall. I'd have to go out and check as I can't remember what I settled on...I tried way too many different combinations to keep them all straight! 😊
> 
> Yeah, the WM drivers are all pretty much excursion limited. That's my only real major qualm with them other than their cost. There's not a whole lot of xmax there to begin with, and _barely_ any xmech beyond their xmax. But that's one reasom they are so good and so linear within their given limits. It's a chosen design compromise.
> 
> In place of the 6WM, and/or 8WM, I would suggest trying the Purifi 6.5 (7") if you really want to get down close to 80Hz with solid output. Obviously, the mounting depth can be prohibitive compared to the WM's. And no, it's not _perfect_ for the application either. But it's definitely got more usable throw and remains linear throughout that wider range with fantastic midbass AND midrange attributes. And it's less expensive than either of the WM's.
> 
> What particular Synth Drum or Synth Bass tracks are you referring to??? The "dry/woody" and "spitty" qualities (opposite subjective terms IMO) may be due to the actual synth that was used in the recording, and/or how it was captured for the recording (D.I. vs mic'd amp/speaker). There are thousands of synths, keyboard synths, & drum machines, and each have varying qualities of oscillators/generators/samples. Some of the 80's and 90's synths had distinct sample libraries and "sounds", but were not very high quality and had noticeable artifacts.
> 
> 
> Also, I meant to post this earlier, but a few tracks off the top of my head that I use that really demonstrate the detail/clarity/separation/realism/3D imaging of the WM's are the two "_Percussion Ensemble - Improvisation_" tracks as well as the solo _Glockenspiel_ track from the Stockfisch Records ''AYA" Authentic Audio Check SACD. The other tracks are excellent as well.
> 
> Also, _Alon Mor's ''Presudeos'' and ''Los Recuerdos'' from the ''Long Awaited Journey'' album_ .
> 
> And "_My Name_" from Lhasa De Sela's ''The Living Road'' album.
> 
> There are A LOT more, but those come immediately to mind.





Thomasluke7899 said:


> How loud is loud? I have no experience with these what so ever.
> But a 3.5 inch mid doesn't sound good crossed lower than 12k?
> And a 6 inch at 250? And it still moves an estimated 4mm? Crossed at 250?
> What spl levels are you achieving with a 6 5 crossed at 250? Like spl numbers?


It’s a very shallow slope (250 self defined 2nd order Q.707) it’s more then a BW6 but less then a BW12. It’s sorta in between... but still a 2nd order . 

when I say loud, I mean as loud as they’ll go before any distortion or clipping of any kind.... comfortably loud.... like 100db ish

forgot to mention I also have the epique 7” MMAG in the door with 14.5mm one way linear excursion, I have them playing at full power with no HPF and they play to 150. (They boogie) 

So here’s a few tracks that I hear this sound.... 

Let you know - Y.V.E 48

Chicago- McKenna Breinholt

amongst a few more as well.... these tracks I was just playing so i remember the names


----------



## oabeieo

I put an 8x12DL in a tundra today with some utopias , it sounded killer! 
better then my car in many ways....
my car has horrible acoustics.......


----------



## SNCTMPL

oabeieo said:


> I put an 8x12DL in a tundra today with some utopias , it sounded killer!
> better then my car in many ways....
> my car has horrible acoustics.......


I just upgraded my 8x12 to a DL today. I can’t wait to get to do some tuning.


----------



## oabeieo

SNCTMPL said:


> I just upgraded my 8x12 to a DL today. I can’t wait to get to do some tuning.


your in for a treat ....

so the Mssounded fine in this guys truck

I’m going to explore why.... (the knocking) 

I am inclined to think it has something to do with a high Q......

To be continued


----------



## oabeieo

Here’s a pic of my buddies cracked tweeter..... the guy that had to buy new speakers after 1 year. And now he doesn’t listen to his bandpass port through in his truck at 150db lol


----------



## haakono

Big difference between 150db and 110db when it comes to recommended use and enviroment? ;-) 

150db can break a windshield. Probably a delicate tweeter as well.


----------



## MythosDreamLab

oabeieo said:


> Here’s a pic of my buddies cracked tweeter..... the guy that had to buy new speakers after 1 year.


*How did his Beryllium Tweeters get destroyed? *

I have them in my front A-Pillars and ALWAYS use a windshield screen to block the sun from hitting them.

*And your buddy knows that Beryllium dust (from a damaged speaker) can cause MAJOR health issues right?* 

There are a whole bunch of warnings in the Focal instructions...


----------



## oabeieo

MythosDreamLab said:


> *How did his Beryllium Tweeters get destroyed? *
> 
> I have them in my front A-Pillars and ALWAYS use a windshield screen to block the sun from hitting them.
> 
> *And your buddy knows that Beryllium dust (from a damaged speaker) can cause MAJOR health issues right?*
> 
> There are a whole bunch of warnings in the Focal instructions...


he has 2 sets of no7 3ways in his truck
3 brax nx4 amps , helix , all the SQ stuff someone would want , and a frikkin bandpass port through..... so he likes .... SQL is what I’m guessing...

So yeah when he would bump really hard his tweeters would move , just like mine but my style has a surround , his does too
It’s just a huge foam piece 

yeah we made sure to protect ourselves from the broken be ......

but it was the 150s that did it ultimately


----------



## oabeieo

I just found the pic and wanted to share ,
We already hashed out what to do .....

It was just surprising that a sub could kill a speaker lol

But your exactly right, it can break windshields .... why wouldn’t it damage a thin sheet of be


----------



## SkizeR

very simple solution here... wrong tool for the job. who the hell uses those in a 150db build lol


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> very simple solution here... wrong tool for the job. who the hell uses those in a 150db build lol


haha!! . Exactly 

I’m pushing 130db and worried.... I should probably stop worrying a little...my dash doesn’t look like jello when the bass hits.


----------



## oabeieo

I am taking the back off my tweets , I finally built tweeter pods , I incorporated a back chamber onto mine. I filled my pods up with resin until it measured the right volume to get a fs of 630hz

I am still in fab , I’ll use dats and measurements once the resin is dry to test the outcome

that should allow me to use a nice shallow slope without running into resonance , and the response won’t drop like a rock as it would open back.

i’m shooting for somewhere in the middle between open back in the back cap ...... we will see how it works

I might cut the basket of the mounting basket to allow the back to be fully open and simply extend the cap that comes with them about an inch , that should get me about where I am want to be. When I plug in the numbers it only asks for a tiny tiny bit of air space it’s like 50 Milliliters to get to a f/o of 650


----------



## trunks9_us

MythosDreamLab said:


> *How did his Beryllium Tweeters get destroyed? *
> 
> I have them in my front A-Pillars and ALWAYS use a windshield screen to block the sun from hitting them.
> 
> *And your buddy knows that Beryllium dust (from a damaged speaker) can cause MAJOR health issues right?*
> 
> There are a whole bunch of warnings in the Focal instructions...


This is the whole reason I don’t use those tweeters and use esotar2 e110 i listened to one of those tweeters before a blown one like that they sound amazing even at low power I could hear it good. I’m not gonna say it’s better than my e110 because they are very different from each other and even though I like brightness the focal weren’t horrible bright and I could easily see tuning to fix it. However I tend to run bright stuff at least eq wise so I like a good response on speakers and amps to sounds more natural to neutral. I hate warm so I won’t get into it. I’m a very analytical person who like that sound.


----------



## trunks9_us

SkizeR said:


> very simple solution here... wrong tool for the job. who the hell uses those in a 150db build lol


What wrong with running 150db for a sq system?? I’ll be running my sq system closer to 160db I am only assuming here with the stereo integrity SHS-24 subwoofer running off a zapco 4kw 4 ohm version with a modified dual 4 ohm coil on the sub by Nick at Si and a carbon cap and cone upgrade. Walled off In My hatchback with a 4th order setup…. But I’m finishing my front stage first before I spend a ton more money on my wall.

The SHS-24 has been mentioned by enough people who have or heard them to be as loud as 3-6 18s which I assume depends on box build and other factors. And yes I know how dumb I sound saying 3-6 18s for the difference in cone area alone 2 18s normally would outshine it by that however it’s the excursion and the amount of air this sub moves is what makes it so freaking loud. I can’t give you the answer to 3-6 because that is such a vast difference I can only assume the difference between the vehicles cabin space and box builds. I just felt attacked some by running a sql setup here






Stereo Integrity SHS-24 Testing & Discussion


Notes and free-air specs for these gigantic 24" drivers have been posted under the driver page. These weigh in at a back straining 115lbs and are capable of 4" peak to peak. Beef it's what's for dinner




data-bass.ipbhost.com


----------



## trunks9_us

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements







data-bass.com


----------



## UNBROKEN

trunks9_us said:


> What wrong with running 150db for a sq system?? I’ll be running my sq system closer to 160db I am only assuming here with the stereo integrity SHS-24 subwoofer running off a zapco 4kw 4 ohm version with a modified dual 4 ohm coil on the sub by Nick at Si and a carbon cap and cone upgrade. Walled off In My hatchback with a 4th order setup…. But I’m finishing my front stage first before I spend a ton more money on my wall.
> 
> The SHS-24 has been mentioned by enough people who have or heard them to be as loud as 3-6 18s which I assume depends on box build and other factors. And yes I know how dumb I sound saying 3-6 18s for the difference in cone area alone 2 18s normally would outshine it by that however it’s the excursion and the amount of air this sub moves is what makes it so freaking loud. I can’t give you the answer to 3-6 because that is such a vast difference I can only assume the difference between the vehicles cabin space and box builds. I just felt attacked some by running a sql setup here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stereo Integrity SHS-24 Testing & Discussion
> 
> 
> Notes and free-air specs for these gigantic 24" drivers have been posted under the driver page. These weigh in at a back straining 115lbs and are capable of 4" peak to peak. Beef it's what's for dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> data-bass.ipbhost.com


You missed the entire point of his post and based your diatribe on you feelings instead of his actual intent. Good job.


----------



## trunks9_us

UNBROKEN said:


> You missed the entire point of his post and based your diatribe on you feelings instead of his actual intent. Good job.


My intent was very clear I wanted to talk about my feelings


----------



## UNBROKEN

trunks9_us said:


> My intent was very clear I wanted to talk about my feelings


But his post was about using a tweeter with an actual suspension that can’t handle the pressure of 150db. Your feels don’t fit into the equation.


----------



## Thomasluke7899

UNBROKEN said:


> But his post was about using a tweeter with an actual suspension that can’t handle the pressure of 150db. Your feels don’t fit into the equation.


Right doesn't matter how you feel. 150 feels the same to that tweeter. 
I believe the reason these tweeters and any solid dome tweeter has is that it's sealed. The silk and fabric domes have holes. Allowing the air pass through. 
But the solid metal and ceramic do not. 
So the pressure in front of the diaphragm is higher than that of the back chamber. 
Out of 40 pages surely someone has mentioned it


----------



## oabeieo

2mo of listening, and have had the same tune for 4weeks now ...

so , the 6WM is actually more of a midrange then a midbass, but wants to be a midbass. It has a monstrous amount of output in the 125-350hz range, but it just bottoms out below 125hz with substantial power on it. It’s like it needs the cone controlled with an enclosure. Then it’s fine. (Like the set in my demo boards)
But even a car door is resistive and has a resonance that will control the cone on a 6.5. So it could depend on the install. In my car , IB. They bottom out really easy crossed at 80, so the lowQBW12 works great at 200.

the 8wm same storey except it doesn’t bottom out. It just doesn’t have lots of Excurtion to play low. Although it seems the suspension does a pretty good job controlling it. This speaker is breathtaking in the midbass. Crossed at 70 with a LR4 it would be happy to play to 1.2khz , this could be matched with the 3.5wm very easily and negate the 6 all together and would honestly be a choice setup. It’s slim can be mounted in any 6.5” location with a small 1/4” plate adapter. Wow what a fine very well controlled speaker when in IB.

the 3.5 obviously is quite superb, best small midrange I’ve ever used. On and off axis this thing sounds exactly the same all the way through it range... those windshield reflections will sound good with this one the 1K area very smooth does not bark or bite at all. Can’t think of anything on the negative side for this guy it’s just an overall really good speaker

the TBM is good. Really really had to get the crossover tuning right with this one as it plays way way down. Once i removed the 6db bump at 1k and then turned back on crossover it’s smooth and quite nice. 
definitely has those bell like highs that I love. It’s a little bit brash in the 1.5k area , so, A 24 DB filter is a great idea or a 12db filter if you cross at 4k or higher.

overall now 60days in. Definitely worth the $ I can see now why the want you give sacrifice of an arm and a leg.


----------



## UNBROKEN

oabeieo said:


> 2mo of listening, and have had the same tune for 4weeks now ...
> 
> so , the 6WM is actually more of a midrange then a midbass, but wants to be a midbass. It has a monstrous amount of output in the 125-350hz range, but it just bottoms out below 125hz with substantial power on it. It’s like it needs the cone controlled with an enclosure. Then it’s fine. (Like the set in my demo boards)
> But even a car door is resistive and has a resonance that will control the cone on a 6.5. So it could depend on the install. In my car , IB. They bottom out really easy crossed at 80, so the lowQBW12 works great at 200.
> 
> the 8wm same storey except it doesn’t bottom out. It just doesn’t have lots of Excurtion to play low. Although it seems the suspension does a pretty good job controlling it. This speaker is breathtaking in the midbass. Crossed at 70 with a LR4 it would be happy to play to 1.2khz , this could be matched with the 3.5wm very easily and negate the 6 all together and would honestly be a choice setup. It’s slim can be mounted in any 6.5” location with a small 1/4” plate adapter. Wow what a fine very well controlled speaker when in IB.
> 
> the 3.5 obviously is quite superb, best small midrange I’ve ever used. On and off axis this thing sounds exactly the same all the way through it range... those windshield reflections will sound good with this one the 1K area very smooth does not bark or bite at all. Can’t think of anything on the negative side for this guy it’s just an overall really good speaker
> 
> the TBM is good. Really really had to get the crossover tuning right with this one as it plays way way down. Once i removed the 6db bump at 1k and then turned back on crossover it’s smooth and quite nice.
> definitely has those bell like highs that I love. It’s a little bit brash in the 1.5k area , so, A 24 DB filter is a great idea or a 12db filter if you cross at 4k or higher.
> 
> overall now 60days in. Definitely worth the $ I can see now why the want you give sacrifice of an arm and a leg.


I have the 8 and 3.5 installed now…should have time after Christmas to get the TBM’s built into my sail panels…I can’t wait to hear it all together.


----------



## MrGreen83

UNBROKEN said:


> I have the 8 and 3.5 installed now…should have time after Christmas to get the TBM’s built into my sail panels…I can’t wait to hear it all together.


How do u feel about what’s installed as of now 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UNBROKEN

MrGreen83 said:


> How do u feel about what’s installed as of now
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I personally don’t have an issue with the TKMX tweeter that’s in there now but it’s in a stock upper door location and I wanna play with a sail panel install…so I might as well get the last Utopia M drivers in there. The 8 and 3.5 are incredible. My only regret is not having enough room for a kick panel midbass…that thing beats the hell outta my leg installed in the door.


----------



## Myface

how extensively did you have to deaden the doors to keep them from rattling? what size door hole did you have 6.5, 6x9?
someone said that with 6.5 door hole you can fit the 8's in there with a spacer ;is that true or did you have to do some cutting?
Tom


----------



## UNBROKEN

If you’re asking me, my Explorer came with a 6x9 and I used the 8” adapter from MTI for an F150…it’s an exact fit. And I had to deaden the hell outta the doors…CLD, butyl rope, Tessa tape, CCF…everywhere. It took some work but I finally got them quiet inside. THEN I had to pull off the outer door trim panels and deaden those as well. I didn’t think I was ever gonna win.


----------



## bertholomey

oabeieo said:


> 2mo of listening, and have had the same tune for 4weeks now ...
> 
> so , the 6WM is actually more of a midrange then a midbass, but wants to be a midbass. It has a monstrous amount of output in the 125-350hz range, but it just bottoms out below 125hz with substantial power on it. It’s like it needs the cone controlled with an enclosure. Then it’s fine. (Like the set in my demo boards)
> But even a car door is resistive and has a resonance that will control the cone on a 6.5. So it could depend on the install. In my car , IB. They bottom out really easy crossed at 80, so the lowQBW12 works great at 200.
> 
> the 8wm same storey except it doesn’t bottom out. It just doesn’t have lots of Excurtion to play low. Although it seems the suspension does a pretty good job controlling it. This speaker is breathtaking in the midbass. Crossed at 70 with a LR4 it would be happy to play to 1.2khz , this could be matched with the 3.5wm very easily and negate the 6 all together and would honestly be a choice setup. It’s slim can be mounted in any 6.5” location with a small 1/4” plate adapter. Wow what a fine very well controlled speaker when in IB.
> 
> the 3.5 obviously is quite superb, best small midrange I’ve ever used. On and off axis this thing sounds exactly the same all the way through it range... those windshield reflections will sound good with this one the 1K area very smooth does not bark or bite at all. Can’t think of anything on the negative side for this guy it’s just an overall really good speaker
> 
> the TBM is good. Really really had to get the crossover tuning right with this one as it plays way way down. Once i removed the 6db bump at 1k and then turned back on crossover it’s smooth and quite nice.
> definitely has those bell like highs that I love. It’s a little bit brash in the 1.5k area , so, A 24 DB filter is a great idea or a 12db filter if you cross at 4k or higher.
> 
> overall now 60days in. Definitely worth the $ I can see now why the want you give sacrifice of an arm and a leg.


That is good stuff Andy! My buddy just picked up the 3.5’s, so I’m anxious to hear them. I’d try those 8’s in my doors if I had the funds available (speakers vs firearms.....). I know what I’ll try next if my Dyn’s ever take a dump!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## oabeieo

UNBROKEN said:


> I personally don’t have an issue with the TKMX tweeter that’s in there now but it’s in a stock upper door location and I wanna play with a sail panel install…so I might as well get the last Utopia M drivers in there. The 8 and 3.5 are incredible. My only regret is not having enough room for a kick panel midbass…that thing beats the hell outta my leg installed in the door.


they sound better in doors..... the off axis response is amazing , and a kick just suffocates that mid (unless you drill to the outside air) in a door the 8Wm whomps onanything I’ve ever heard in a car... I tuned a tundra with 8s in the door and my van has 8s in the door and holy mackaroll

my kicks are good, I have the Dayton epique in my doors to make up for my kicks..... the imaging from kicks in nice , but in the doors you can have the left 70deg and the right 10deg and they still sound uniform.... there such amazing speakers for doors it’s crazy how good they behave


----------



## oabeieo

bertholomey said:


> That is good stuff Andy! My buddy just picked up the 3.5’s, so I’m anxious to hear them. I’d try those 8’s in my doors if I had the funds available (speakers vs firearms.....). I know what I’ll try next if my Dyn’s ever take a dump!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I just bought a very high end Daniels defense.... I know your pain brotha


----------



## kumizi

I've had the 6.5/3.5/tweet combo for the last three years.

Just bought a BMW M2 as a daily. It has 8s under the seats. I was thinking of selling my 6WM and buying the 8WM.

I honestly don't know much about car audio science/setup. Is it even worth doing an expensive system in a car with under seat woofers?


----------



## oabeieo

kumizi said:


> I've had the 6.5/3.5/tweet combo for the last three years.
> 
> Just bought a BMW M2 as a daily. It has 8s under the seats. I was thinking of selling my 6WM and buying the 8WM.
> 
> I honestly don't know much about car audio science/setup. Is it even worth doing an expensive system in a car with under seat woofers?


the 8w is a fine driver and might actually fit under there ......

the Bmw subs have a lot to be desired. It will make sound, and with proper modifications to eliminate the stock enclosure it can sound decent. It is just horrible location for much past 150hz

and between 110hz and 200hz it’s quite restrictive in output efficiency.

would I do it? No. I would make IB kick panels for the bmw. And have good sound all the way up to about 1k

it’s too bad the bmw is sorta one of the absolute worst cars for sound quality. Major mods have to be done to get them to sound good and have exceptional SQ.

focal makes a bmw sub that works nice in stock locations it’s not the wm but they work good in those locations


----------



## oabeieo

I got Tidal again 2$ for 2mo ..... 
the WMs are the only speakers i have that I can hear a substantial SQ difference.... all my old speakers I can hear a difference but not enough to justify the extra 15$ a mo over Spotify...

the Ms, especially the tweeter is definitely worth it. The highs are softer and more sharp and defined.... the mids and lows are almost the same. Better ambiance with tidal....

Being my system is truly 24/96 capable all the way through to the Dac I think I’m going to keep tidal...... 

I will have to keep Spotify also for the playlists, as tidal can’t recommend anything I like, even tho I’ve hearted all my favs it just wants to pimp out garbage tracks.

so....... there ya have it. Go big or go home I suppose..... so I was wrong about tidal..... it really truly does have better sq.
Maybe it’s my iphone12 ??? I had tidal before on iPhone6+, so maybe there’s something there.....??? Idk because it’s a cusb now maybe something different.... idk anything about lighting....


----------



## kumizi

^ Thanks

I might just save the Utopias I have now for my next car purchase and go with something cheaper that's made specifically for the 2 series.

edit: Funny you mention that. When I had the Utopia Ms installed 3 years ago, I got in and played a song on Spotify. My reaction to spending all that money was luke warm. Installer/shop recommended I try Tidal HiFi and download all the songs to my Iphone. I also feel like I can tell an audible difference.


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## oabeieo

kumizi said:


> ^ Thanks
> 
> I might just save the Utopias I have now for my next car purchase and go with something cheaper that's made specifically for the 2 series.
> 
> edit: Funny you mention that. When I had the Utopia Ms installed 3 years ago, I got in and played a song on Spotify. My reaction to spending all that money was luke warm. Installer/shop recommended I try Tidal HiFi and download all the songs to my Iphone. I also feel like I can tell an audible difference.


get a good installer man and modify that beoznytch! Do kicks, 3.5wms and Tweets in pillars and have it all

I would definitely do that. It’s just a car, and it’s just holes in a car


----------



## Elektra

kumizi said:


> I've had the 6.5/3.5/tweet combo for the last three years.
> 
> Just bought a BMW M2 as a daily. It has 8s under the seats. I was thinking of selling my 6WM and buying the 8WM.
> 
> I honestly don't know much about car audio science/setup. Is it even worth doing an expensive system in a car with under seat woofers?


The 8’s should fit as they fit in my 1 series… they are almost exactly the same size as the OEM driver there. All BMWs have a 8” box there even the 6” driver is in a 8” box (like mine) 

What you want to do is custom make the box to house the 8WM properly as the 8WM frame makes it a squeeze. Then you need to make a 4” hole under it and run it IB. In my car there is actually already a hole but it’s small so you need to make it bigger










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kumizi

I brought up the infinite baffle thing to my installer/shop and they didn't seem too excited about it. Not sure if it's because of cutting required.


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## Elektra

kumizi said:


> I brought up the infinite baffle thing to my installer/shop and they didn't seem too excited about it. Not sure if it's because of cutting required.


Focals don’t like boxes because their QTS is high - they more suited to IB installs as the Box requirements would be unreasonable especially in tight spaces

Even kick panels would require so cutting as if you limit the air space you will limit what you want from this driver and that is bass


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## haakono

For those of you that have modelled it, how would the 8WM perform (in theory at least) in a larger sealed (or ported for that matter) enclosure of let's say between 1 to 2 ft3?


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## oabeieo

haakono said:


> For those of you that have modelled it, how would the 8WM perform (in theory at least) in a larger sealed (or ported for that matter) enclosure of let's say between 1 to 2 ft3?


I have the 6wm in ported in my sound room at my store. Focal originally designed the box for the kx2, they send me the display. And I have the 6wm with NO HPF playing all the waydown.

the box is .75net with a small slot port tuned at 38.

the 6wm pounds and dam near sounds like subs in large ported. Here’s the kicker

same speaker IB crossed at 80 bottoms out when pushed hard and the coil hits backplate super hard. Ouch! Eek gatz!

it’s a peculiar driver, here’s another weird one tho . My 8wm is in tiny tiny ported .15 tuned at 111 and it’s crossed at 80(LR) it has almost no Excurtion and I can drive it hard if I wanted to. It doesn’t sound very good played hard from 80-125 as I suspect the excursion is controlled doesn’t mean thermal heat in the gap isn’t. I put my money on it gets hot. So I just don’t play them that hard.

the 8wm in a door IB , holy crap. It’s to die for. The 6wm IB sounds very Good also, just don’t give it give of power and or find the peak and control it with eq so it can’t bottom out and IB sounds excellent.

overall a large ported would work fine. I’m just not a fan of all that ringing in the upper octave harmonics. No thanks. Small ported works as long as your crossed low so ringing is out of band, but then you loose a ton of efficiency and need to remove phase as the small box will give it really ugly phase. No thanks either.

IB really is choice for these

after my Christmas rush I am cutting my floor to get mine to be IB..... I have to hire a metal guy to cut because my kicks are structural mains for body. When I roll my windows down my kicks sound excellent. When there up it’s poo poo..... I need to invert that effect by going IB on back of speaker....


----------



## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> I have the 6wm in ported in my sound room at my store. Focal originally designed the box for the kx2, they send me the display. And I have the 6wm with NO HPF playing all the waydown.
> 
> the box is .75net with a small slot port tuned at 38.
> 
> the 6wm pounds and dam near sounds like subs in large ported. Here’s the kicker
> 
> same speaker IB crossed at 80 bottoms out when pushed hard and the coil hits backplate super hard. Ouch! Eek gatz!


My man, you really need a disclaimer warning on your posts. Your definition of pushed hard must be so far beyond anything anyone else on this forum is even capable of listening to. I have the 6wm in my doors crossed at 70hz, and they absolutely rip. The only thing they've done in my car is hit the door panel. Never had em once bottom out and they're on a bridged Mosconi Pro 4|10. So yeah. Either something is wrong here, or you are looking for club levels of volume which is absolutely irration to ask for from any normal 6.5" midwoofer. This is also hinted with you saying it's more of a midrange that needs to be crossed at 120hz or higher. Asinine. Remember, most people on this forum, and those who are just into higher end audio won't even turn my car up past 2/3rds on the volume knob. I crank it all the way and still no trouble from them. At least make people aware of what you are after before you say this stuff, because then we deal with people reading whatever is on here as gospel and everyone bring confused.


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## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> My man, you really need a disclaimer warning on your posts. Your definition of pushed hard must be so far beyond anything anyone else on this forum is even capable of listening to. I have the 6wm in my doors crossed at 70hz, and they absolutely rip. The only thing they've done in my car is hit the door panel. Never had em once bottom out and they're on a bridged Mosconi Pro 4|10. So yeah. Either something is wrong here, or you are looking for club levels of volume which is absolutely irration to ask for from any normal 6.5" midwoofer. This is also hinted with you saying it's more of a midrange that needs to be crossed at 120hz or higher. Asinine. Remember, most people on this forum, and those who are just into higher end audio won't even turn my car up past 2/3rds on the volume knob. I crank it all the way and still no trouble from them. At least make people aware of what you are after before you say this stuff, because then we deal with people reading whatever is on here as gospel and everyone bring confused.


this is excellent feedback thank you.
Yeah and I sorta have said when pushed hard. (I thought maybe that was the disclaimer but LOL 🙃) So let’s figure this out may e you can help me as to what’s going on

Club levels.... hahaha maybe 🤪🤓
But not quite just really loud levels

it looks like you have more power thanme also ..... I have mine on half of a alpine XA70F, so there getting 120W rms .
Optical out to processors, nothing boosted in EQs, just a normal LR4 at 80, nothing special except mine don’t play in a door. Mine play into a sub dash.

I can make a video if it helps but they definitely bottom out and it’s really loud. BANG BANG BANG

it has 4.5mm liner Excurtion and I don’t know mech.

I’ve installed a few other sets and haven’t had this problem but I also really never played it that loud in customer cars. But when it does it in mine it’s way before distortion picks up and I’m not running more power than what is recommended

what do you think it might be?.....

Do you think possibly is just where they’re mounted in mine is somehow the air is pushing back up against the cone? It’s really strange because I’ve had the stevens components, 6ND430s , ps165FXs and none of those did it.... so I just always assumed it was the driver

I heard it on the right side, the left I have turned down -3db.... but I’m sure it would have also done it....

if you have any ideas for me to test I will be the first one to run out and do it right away.... I’m really curious as to why these do this in my install


----------



## Elektra

SkizeR said:


> My man, you really need a disclaimer warning on your posts. Your definition of pushed hard must be so far beyond anything anyone else on this forum is even capable of listening to. I have the 6wm in my doors crossed at 70hz, and they absolutely rip. The only thing they've done in my car is hit the door panel. Never had em once bottom out and they're on a bridged Mosconi Pro 4|10. So yeah. Either something is wrong here, or you are looking for club levels of volume which is absolutely irration to ask for from any normal 6.5" midwoofer. This is also hinted with you saying it's more of a midrange that needs to be crossed at 120hz or higher. Asinine. Remember, most people on this forum, and those who are just into higher end audio won't even turn my car up past 2/3rds on the volume knob. I crank it all the way and still no trouble from them. At least make people aware of what you are after before you say this stuff, because then we deal with people reading whatever is on here as gospel and everyone bring confused.


I have to say my old Focal Utopia 6W3’s never bottomed out and I played some serious bass notes through them - like Braveheart OST music with big drum sections - I promise you you would think your on the battle field…

Never once did they miss a note… so I am surprised at the 6WM’s bottoming out… 

Also Focals are quite efficient drivers 100rms is plenty for them… 

When you have such high value equipment you also have to have a brain in how hard you push them unless you like replacing drivers - and these are not cheap! 


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## SkizeR

Elektra said:


> I have to say my old Focal Utopia 6W3’s never bottomed out and I played some serious bass notes through them - like Braveheart OST music with big drum sections - I promise you you would think your on the battle field…
> 
> Never once did they miss a note… so I am surprised at the 6WM’s bottoming out…
> 
> Also Focals are quite efficient drivers 100rms is plenty for them…
> 
> When you have such high value equipment you also have to have a brain in how hard you push them unless you like replacing drivers - and these are not cheap!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly why i say that he really needs to understand what his goals are vs others. Because otherwise, what he is saying is very misleading.


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## Elektra

SkizeR said:


> Exactly why i say that he really needs to understand what his goals are vs others. Because otherwise, what he is saying is very misleading.


Exactly right… 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

Elektra said:


> Exactly right…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The guys avatar is a compression driver the size of a toddlers head. I think that says enough lol


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## Elektra

SkizeR said:


> The guys avatar is a compression driver the size of a toddlers head. I think that says enough lol


Lol…


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## haakono

The reason I'm asking is because my car basically has a false floor with close to 4" in height, all the way from the firewall to the rear seat bench. On one side there is a compartment for the jack and tools, if you were to remove it there is still more space underneath. And for the rest of the floorboard there are 3-4" thick styrofoam spacers between the carpet and the actual floor. All this space could be used to make enclosures, so if the 8WM could work well in a large enclosure, either sealed or ported, I have space for it. 

6wm for reference of depth:


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## oabeieo

Well at least I’m not a stoned Kitty cat......( duh huuuuu ) ya dope stop being a dyck 

But seriously it’s easy to talk trash about someone and take cheap shots at there integrity. But that solves nothing.

so ...... at 80 with 120w IB it slams the bottom plate. Noting boosted. I mean, go ahead and say whatever you want about me, I suppose if you were on my laptop and pressed on the 80hz crossover button it would magically stop doing that right ?

is that what your saying? ......

i would suggest you don’t know why, just like me. I’m glad it works for you. As far as goals..... I just want a good sounding system which I’ve achieved. I wasn’t going to use my kicks, and only use the 6wm for midbass, but that did not work so well.......

so go ahead everybody cross your 4.5 mm Speakers over at 80 and pound the **** out of them.... if discrediting me makes you feel better about doing that then go for it. i’m just giving my “ thoughts on the WM“ as the thread description is. Don’t let me stop you from having fun if it works for you guys that’s fantastic but it does not work for me that way....


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## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> Well at least I’m not a stoned cat....
> 
> But seriously it’s easy to talk trash about someone and take cheap shots at there integrity. But that solves nothing.
> 
> so ...... at 80 with 120w IB it slams the bottom plate. Noting boosted. I mean, go ahead and say whatever you want about me, I suppose if you were on my laptop and pressed on the 80hz crossover button it would magically stop doing that right ?
> 
> is that what your saying? ......


All im saying is i have an idea of your listening habbits based on your posts. Im also saying that i have a fair amount of experience with these speakers and can confidently say there is no way the 6wm is bottoming out with a 120hz crossover with only 120 watts if everything is set up/installed correctly. Even if things were wrong, i just cannot see this even being possible unless the speaker were defective in some way. Here... 6wm simulation with 120 watts, 120hz crossover, and predicted excursion, which is just shy of 3mm. Then a simulation with the amount of power needed to hit its 5.5mm xmax (which is 500 watts). Then a simulation with 120 watts applied showing the crossover needed for it to hit its 5.5mm xmax (80hz). So yeah, something isnt right here. What that is, is what i'm trying to find out.


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## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> All im saying is i have an idea of your listening habbits based on your posts. Im also saying that i have a fair amount of experience with these speakers and can confidently say there is no way the 6wm is bottoming out with a 120hz crossover with only 120 watts if everything is set up/installed correctly. Even if things were wrong, i just cannot see this even being possible unless the speaker were defective in some way. Here... 6wm simulation with 120 watts, 120hz crossover, and predicted excursion, which is just shy of 3mm. Then a simulation with the amount of power needed to hit its 5.5mm xmax (which is 500 watts). Then a simulation with 120 watts applied showing the crossover needed for it to hit its 5.5mm xmax (80hz). So yeah, something isnt right here. What that is, is what i'm trying to find out.


I said 80hz LR.... not 120hz 

I have 120watts !!!

I like that sim btw....... that’s cool 😎😊😌☺😉


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## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> I said 80hz LR.... not 120hz
> 
> I have 120watts !!!
> 
> I like that sim btw....... that’s cool 😎😊😌☺😉


Previously you mentioned that you have to cross them at 120. But even then, 80hz with 120 watts doesnt even exceed linear xmax, let alone xmech. What size enclosure are these in?


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## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> Previously you mentioned that you have to cross them at 120. But even then, 80hz with 120 watts doesnt even exceed linear xmax, let alone xmech. What size enclosure are these in?


yeah there crossed now at 250hz BW6 equivalent

but there in my side windows, it’s a big cavity and the bottom in cut out to vent into sub dash......when at 80 (LR4) it sounds like hitting an anvil with a hammer 
Here’s a pic


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## SkizeR

Very cool. But yeah, something must not be right, or you are mistaking something else with the speaker bottoming out. Hmmmm.. Unfortunately we're like 1000 miles apart, so its hard to help


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## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> Very cool. But yeah, something must not be right, or you are mistaking something else with the speaker bottoming out. Hmmmm.. Unfortunately we're like 1000 miles apart, so its hard to help


i appreciate you.
I’m going to try one more time..... 
maybe there was something I missed.

and for reals , it would be so fun to drive around and tour all the states to listen to cars.... I would love it! 🤩🤩🤩


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## Picassotheimpaler

oabeieo said:


> i appreciate you.
> I’m going to try one more time.....
> maybe there was something I missed.
> 
> and for reals , it would be so fun to drive around and tour all the states to listen to cars.... I would love it! 🤩🤩🤩


I'm just gonna take a shot in the dark here, but you are trying to put that much power into 80hz in your A pillar. It's not going to take much to get that to buzz or rattle. So I wouldn't be surprised if a hard part of the pillar was buzzing against the metal frame of the pillar when that enclosure started resonating. And I could see hard fiberglass vibrating against metal sounding like bottoming out.


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## oabeieo

Yeah I know but like I said before

I had the 6ND430 with


Picassotheimpaler said:


> I'm just gonna take a shot in the dark here, but you are trying to put that much power into 80hz in your A pillar. It's not going to take much to get that to buzz or rattle. So I wouldn't be surprised if a hard part of the pillar was buzzing against the metal frame of the pillar when that enclosure started resonating. And I could see hard fiberglass vibrating against metal sounding like bottoming out.


like I said before though I had the 6ND 430 bridged with same amp at 320w RMS
Zero problems! The stevens , zero problems, the flax , zero problems

and the way I built up my pillars it’s almost 1 1/2 of mdf , fiberglass and duraglass.....

They’re really really super heavy and dense and I also put layers of DinamaThey’re really really super heavy and dense and I also put layers of Dinamat inbettwen layers of duraglass and milkshake fiberglass duraglass mix

I made sure to make them super thick so that no sound can come through the wall of the pillar, and that they don’t vibrate at all... I also used sheet meta screws with locking washers to hold them firmly to the body ....

So I’m afraid not....... it’s the speaker as of now . But I will try it again one more time to be certain


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## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> yeah there crossed now at 250hz BW6 equivalent
> 
> but there in my side windows, it’s a big cavity and the bottom in cut out to vent into sub dash......when at 80 (LR4) it sounds like hitting an anvil with a hammer
> Here’s a pic
> View attachment 319492
> 
> View attachment 319496
> 
> View attachment 319497
> 
> View attachment 319494
> 
> View attachment 319493
> 
> View attachment 319495


Seems to me that your pushing the 6WM’s too low for that enclosure… 

Maybe in that situation I would have left the 3.5WM out and played the 6WM at say 100-120hz and used the 8WM to play everything below that and crossed the 6WM at 3000hz 

That way your not pushing the 6WM’s too low to have the mounting rattling… 

That baffle your using for the 6WM looks a bit thin for me… 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Elektra said:


> Seems to me that your pushing the 6WM’s too low for that enclosure…
> 
> Maybe in that situation I would have left the 3.5WM out and played the 6WM at say 100-120hz and used the 8WM to play everything below that and crossed the 6WM at 3000hz
> 
> That way your not pushing the 6WM’s too low to have the mounting rattling…
> 
> That baffle your using for the 6WM looks a bit thin for me…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope! The pics of the fab was before I added almost an inch more , I think I have a pic of the fist layer ..... the pic shows dynamat and duraglass , this is the first layer ... I did 4 more layers , fiberglass , dynamat, duraglass , repeat

no joke it’s about an inch (maybe 1.5”) all the way around all the speakers and all of the plastics , the panels weigh about 15lbs each!!!!

so , NO RATTLES..... NO RATTLES.... none what so ever

I know what a speaker bottoming out sounds like lol 😝

and again...... why doesn’t it do it when I double the power and use the 18sound speaker or stevens speaker ? 
lol


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## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> Nope! The pics of the fab was before I added almost an inch more , I think I have a pic of the fist layer ..... the pic shows dynamat and duraglass , this is the first layer ... I did 4 more layers , fiberglass , dynamat, duraglass , repeat
> 
> no joke it’s about an inch (maybe 1.5”) all the way around all the speakers and all of the plastics , the panels weigh about 15lbs each!!!!
> 
> so , NO RATTLES..... NO RATTLES.... none what so ever
> 
> I know what a speaker bottoming out sounds like lol
> 
> and again...... why doesn’t it do it when I double the power and use the 18sound speaker or stevens speaker ?
> lol
> 
> View attachment 319558
> 
> View attachment 319559
> 
> View attachment 319557
> 
> View attachment 319560


I dunno maybe your putting too much power and these Focals can’t take that kind of power..


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## dumdum

Elektra said:


> I dunno maybe your putting too much power and these Focals can’t take that kind of power..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is more like it, unrealistic expectations for a shallow driver that is made for sq oriented clean output… wrong driver for his application or requirements, I’ve heard the 6wm playing to 80hz loads and have never heard them bottom out… ever! 🤷🏽‍♂️


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## Elektra

dumdum said:


> This is more like it, unrealistic expectations for a shallow driver that is made for sq oriented clean output… wrong driver for his application or requirements, I’ve heard the 6wm playing to 80hz loads and have never heard them bottom out… ever!


Yeah I’ve had lots of Utopia drivers before - for my listening levels I have never heard them bottom out or struggle….

Possibly wrong drivers for this type of application… 


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## oabeieo

Okay so this good feedback .....

Okay so , wrong driver for this application! 
good thing I’m not using it that way!

I do like to listen loud but not balls out loud. just comfortably loud.

I’m going to try it again.... and do more in depth to see what’s going on and so this is to be continued


----------



## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> Okay so this good feedback .....
> 
> Okay so , wrong driver for this application!
> good thing I’m not using it that way!
> 
> I do like to listen loud but not balls out loud. just comfortably loud.
> 
> I’m going to try it again.... and do more in depth to see what’s going on and so this is to be continued


Just curious how much power are you using?


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## oabeieo

120


Elektra said:


> Just curious how much power are you using?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


120w. (Half of a XA70F) 

no boost in eq , and i don’t listen balls to the wall loud.... I actually cringe when ppl do that, especially on a 2000$ speaker


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## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> 120
> 
> 120w. (Half of a XA70F)
> 
> no boost in eq , and i don’t listen balls to the wall loud.... I actually cringe when ppl do that, especially on a 2000$ speaker


I dunno - could be a few things… 120rms is still a lot for an efficient driver 

Without listening to car I can’t say for sure…


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## oabeieo

Elektra said:


> I dunno - could be a few things… 120rms is still a lot for an efficient driver
> 
> Without listening to car I can’t say for sure…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is a very fair reply... I appreciate you very much for not just assuming some thing... 

But I’m really glad you guys have all chimed in and said that all of yours are working fine because I’ve been questioning it so I’m going to definitely give it a shot again and try one more time in this time test a few things and see what the heck is going on 😌


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## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> and i don’t listen balls to the wall loud.... I actually cringe when ppl do that, especially on a 2000$ speaker


I dont believe you lol


----------



## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> I dont believe you lol


🤪🤪🤪🤓🤓🤓😎😎😎😎🤪🤪🤩🤩🤩🥳🥳🥳🤩🤪🤪🤩😏

okay not always ..... every once in a while I do say f*** it , and crank it up , I have to be in a pretty crappy mood for that to happen..... although 7000$ in speakers on this build I still won’t go to that extreme..... when I had horns , yeah definitely 🥳🥳🥳 I keep my dsp at -12dbfs just in case I get angry and want to break sh* 

for reals tho , not all out fully saturated distortion.... never.... that is just disturbing.


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## oabeieo

Okay here it is ..... edit


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## oabeieo

If you notice in video I turned it all the way up (no bottoming out) I usually listen at 32/40 I went to 40/40 for the video 

I don’t know what I did wrong ...... I am guessing I must have had the filter off when it bottomed out. (Doh) and here I am. Convinced of my own nonsense

okay , I digress and concede. I was wrong


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## SkizeR

Is that full volume with gain structure maximized? If so, no offense Obi, but threads like this are exactly why I facepalm when clients tell me "But someone on the forum said...". Or god forbid subjective reviews..
You have no idea who is behind that screen, you have no idea what their experience is, you have no idea what their goals are, you have no idea if they even know which way is up. I think you get my point. I honestly think I would have rather seen a video of something going on, than just confirming yet again that you can trust hardly anyone on the internet.


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## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> Is that full volume with gain structure maximized? If so, no offense Obi, but threads like this are exactly why I facepalm when clients tell me "But someone on the forum said...". Or god forbid subjective reviews..
> You have no idea who is behind that screen, you have no idea what their experience is, you have no idea what their goals are, you have no idea if they even know which way is up. I think you get my point. I honestly think I would have rather seen a video of something going on, than just confirming yet again that you can trust hardly anyone on the internet.


Lmao , I did that just to see if you were paying attention... and apparently not

if you would read what I wrote earlier you wouldn’t be saying that... so once again you have your foot in your mouth* 

I have my dsp at -12dbfs!!! *

and on top of that it’s attinuated in Dirac another 5.5db..... 

If I cranked my system to 40 (max) with a maximal gain I would launch my midbass and send my whole system ya pinhead 

pay attention! Your a grizzly to smash on ppl , I hate distortion and I hate clipping..... like any kind of clipping , ANY


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## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> Lmao , I did that just to see if you were paying attention... and apparently not
> 
> *I have my dsp at -12dbfs!!! *
> 
> and on top of that it’s attinuated in Dirac another 5.5db.....


This is pretty sad to see coming from another installer and someone others on here apparently trust for advice. saying "my processor is at -12db" doesn't tell me anything outside of your processor has an arbitrary setting. I asked about your gain structure as a whole. Not one setting. I can go ahead and also set my processor to -12. But that doesn't tell me if that is on the input gain, output gain, that doesn't tell me what the input and output voltages are, that also doesn't tell me what the amplifier gain is. Come on dude...

Also, if you are talking about me not paying attention to your video, the video seemed to be freshly uploaded as it was only available in 240p resolution. Aka, you can't make out anything besides general shapes and colors. It is also not my job to diagnose your issues. But i will make a point to call out when someone is misrepresenting something, as shown in this thread.


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## dumdum

oabeieo said:


> If you notice in video I turned it all the way up (no bottoming out) I usually listen at 32/40 I went to 40/40 for the video
> 
> I don’t know what I did wrong ...... I am guessing I must have had the filter off when it bottomed out. (Doh) and here I am. Convinced of my own nonsense
> 
> okay , I digress and concede. I was wrong


I was going to say earlier you were the guy who does all manner of stuff I’d never do with your audio, like recommending running midbass with no crossover on the bottom end iirc 🙈


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## oabeieo

It’s a message board for goodness sakes.



SkizeR said:


> This is pretty sad to see coming from another installer and someone others on here apparently trust for advice. saying "my processor is at -12db" doesn't tell me anything outside of your processor has an arbitrary setting. I asked about your gain structure as a whole. Not one setting. I can go ahead and also set my processor to -12. But that doesn't tell me if that is on the input gain, output gain, that doesn't tell me what the input and output voltages are, that also doesn't tell me what the amplifier gain is. Come on dude...


okay fair enough...... but you know me well enough to know I don’t screw around... I’ve been saying for years I have balls to the wall loud a$$holes. It literally makes me cringe....

so , alpine amps set at unity gain, (not cutting or boosting) . Then I’m not boosting anything in eq , and I’ve attenuated the output -12db. Using my scope , I’ve measured the proper voltage and watched the sine for clipping.... there’s none. What’s crazy is I actually have to boost my dsp 10db before I see any clipping. So I’m almost-25 dB from any sort of clipping on the amps output or dsp output and that is all done with a source signal that runs through...... guess what...... that’s right . My head unit...at MOL .............duh..... edit and my source is optical so there is no need for 3/4 volume, I can go to 0dbfs on the volume and I don’t have to worry as it won’t clip , it simply plays the media at full scale (however that was recorded) I know it can’t go above full scale because it’s media. The media can’t make up samples or bits. Duh nick 

So when you’re done having your bad day Nick maybe you can stop being a big old fat jerk. We all know each other well enough on here we’ve been on here for years and years now please stop with your nonsense.. I know you’re a good installer and good technician but let me tell you something you’re not the only good installer and technician.. You’re the kind of person that likes to prowl the forms looking for problems that people say which is not very cool if you ask me
it’s kind of duschey in fact. I just talk to people talk about my system talk about their systems just have fun communicating and talking to people about stereos because it’s fun I’m not always right, and I’ll admit that.... but what you’re saying is just rubbish and I’m not gonna listen to it so blah blah blah...


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## oabeieo

dumdum said:


> I was going to say earlier you were the guy who does all manner of stuff I’d never do with your audio, like recommending running midbass with no crossover on the bottom end iirc 🙈


yep! That’s me .... and I still think it’s a viable solution....

just because I made one mistake doesn’t mean that I can’t turn the HPF completely off on this driver and get it to not bottom out....... here comes the wolves 🐺

The HPF will absolutely cause time related problems that most* dsps can’t address. Especially if the sub is maxing out to keep up.

eliminating the HPF will definitely get a smoother phase and response from the door 6.5..... I never said it didn’t have to be tuned , and I did say use eq to control Excurtion if need be, as a proper eq cut in the right area will shift far less phase then a filter

so ....... yeah and that holds true.....

if I didn’t have two other sets of midbass I would absolutely be doing that. My door midbass has NO HPF..... and it sounds super good


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## SkizeR

oabeieo said:


> okay fair enough...... but you know me well enough to know I don’t screw around...


Yeah, i'd.. you know what. Nevermind. 

I'm out. If anyone who is running these or are thinking about it and need advice, feel free to PM me.


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## oabeieo

SkizeR said:


> Yeah, i'd.. you know what. Nevermind.
> 
> I'm out. If anyone who is running these or are thinking about it and need advice, feel free to PM me.


because he knows everything and never makes mistakes......


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## oabeieo

tuned with Dirac last nite , and guess what...... not as bad as last time, right side bottoms out....

so Dirac is doing something and I don’t know what, because I have my target 5.5db below the magnitude and stops at the knee.

so I wasn’t loosing my mind.....

That’s what I did last time also , got all the way through the tuning process. My guess is it’s cutting everything except down near 80 where it’s crossed.

So with Dirac on , I turned off the crossover, measured. A peak at 54hz (about 4db high) otherwise it was mostly flat to about 38hz 

knocked the peak down, used a -6db 54hz Q4 peq , re engaged crossover and now does not bottom out. Not even close.

so I wasn’t losing my mind! I have no idea how that peak got there post Dirac. 😏

Overall sound quality is great..... plays nice and strong down to 80 now..... good punchy response. Excellent little driver 

so I am sorry for the confusion. It’s sounding excellent now. Thanks everyone for the kick in the butt to get me to try one more time. Thanks Electra, nick, pucconithestier (or whatever your screennames is spelled my autocorrect went crazy on that one)

very fantastic driver!


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## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> tuned with Dirac last nite , and guess what...... not as bad as last time, right side bottoms out....
> 
> so Dirac is doing something and I don’t know what, because I have my target 5.5db below the magnitude and stops at the knee.
> 
> so I wasn’t loosing my mind.....
> 
> That’s what I did last time also , got all the way through the tuning process. My guess is it’s cutting everything except down near 80 where it’s crossed.
> 
> So with Dirac on , I turned off the crossover, measured. A peak at 54hz (about 4db high) otherwise it was mostly flat to about 38hz
> 
> knocked the peak down, used a -6db 54hz Q4 peq , re engaged crossover and now does not bottom out. Not even close.
> 
> so I wasn’t losing my mind! I have no idea how that peak got there post Dirac.
> 
> Overall sound quality is great..... plays nice and strong down to 80 now..... good punchy response. Excellent little driver
> 
> so I am sorry for the confusion. It’s sounding excellent now. Thanks everyone for the kick in the butt to get me to try one more time. Thanks Electra, nick, pucconithestier (or whatever your screennames is spelled my autocorrect went crazy on that one)
> 
> very fantastic driver!


Yeah sometimes you just need to measure and check… I am going to install my TBM, 3.5wm and 8WM in the next few weeks after the new Sony arrives… 

Like I said these Focals don’t bottom out unless your a total hooligan and trying to make these speakers play outside there design frame …


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Elektra said:


> Yeah sometimes you just need to measure and check… I am going to install my TBM, 3.5wm and 8WM in the next few weeks after the new Sony arrives…
> 
> Like I said these Focals don’t bottom out unless your a total hooligan and trying to make these speakers play outside there design frame …
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


oh my gosh you’re gonna love the eight...
oh my goodness it literally makes me excited every time I hear that speaker play. 

but yeah what a fiasco that was.... I was just like where in the **** is all this excursion coming from.... 

I am almost thinking about writing an email to Dirac and asking a couple questions about filter properties and targets. I just don’t understand how it was putting that much energy below my cross over and outside of the curtain area. It should have ignored that area.... 

The only thing I can think of is being that it’s ignoring that area it might’ve been attenuating everything else making that area simply have more responsThe only thing I can think of is being that it’s ignoring that area it might’ve been attenuating everything else making that area simply have more power. The measured response just did not show that. Ultimately I think that’s where I got massively confused.

I can’t wait to get home after work tonight I’m going to redo the whole thing again this time I’m going to try it as a three-way all up on the dash and turn off my kicks in my doors for a few weeks and just listen to the three-way set, how are you originally wanted to do the install I’m pretty excited to hear this 6 1/2 the way I thought it was supposed to work


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## oabeieo

Full blown retune... (and a pm battle from hell) tonite....

it’s amazing !!! These drivers kick arse!

so that is all it was, this 6.5 seriously gets down.

the 8 is even better!

I ran Dirac on the 3way only.....super flat response to 80hz.... almost perfect LR alignment to sub.... omg it sound so killer

it’s just like an amazing set of bookshelves in front of me....

i added the 8 and door 6.5 post Dirac to build my tilt.... so the 3way is the baseline as flat flat..... holy smokes it sounds sooooooooooo real....

Thank you guys !!! I needed the feedback on this..... thank you so much it’s even more amazing , and it was amazing before.....

i can’t wait to drive it more now 🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩


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## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> oh my gosh you’re gonna love the eight...
> oh my goodness it literally makes me excited every time I hear that speaker play.
> 
> but yeah what a fiasco that was.... I was just like where in the **** is all this excursion coming from....
> 
> I am almost thinking about writing an email to Dirac and asking a couple questions about filter properties and targets. I just don’t understand how it was putting that much energy below my cross over and outside of the curtain area. It should have ignored that area....
> 
> The only thing I can think of is being that it’s ignoring that area it might’ve been attenuating everything else making that area simply have more responsThe only thing I can think of is being that it’s ignoring that area it might’ve been attenuating everything else making that area simply have more power. The measured response just did not show that. Ultimately I think that’s where I got massively confused.
> 
> I can’t wait to get home after work tonight I’m going to redo the whole thing again this time I’m going to try it as a three-way all up on the dash and turn off my kicks in my doors for a few weeks and just listen to the three-way set, how are you originally wanted to do the install I’m pretty excited to hear this 6 1/2 the way I thought it was supposed to work


Maybe Dirac is compensating for something and boosting a certain frequency - I had the same thing on my sub sounded like I was breaking the sub till I measured it and there was a massive peak in the car at around 40hz so I had to drop that by like 12dbs

You might have had the same issue of sorts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra

oabeieo said:


> Full blown retune... (and a pm battle from hell) tonite....
> 
> it’s amazing !!! These drivers kick arse!
> 
> so that is all it was, this 6.5 seriously gets down.
> 
> the 8 is even better!
> 
> I ran Dirac on the 3way only.....super flat response to 80hz.... almost perfect LR alignment to sub.... omg it sound so killer
> 
> it’s just like an amazing set of bookshelves in front of me....
> 
> i added the 8 and door 6.5 post Dirac to build my tilt.... so the 3way is the baseline as flat flat..... holy smokes it sounds sooooooooooo real....
> 
> Thank you guys !!! I needed the feedback on this..... thank you so much it’s even more amazing , and it was amazing before.....
> 
> i can’t wait to drive it more now


I might get the 6WM or WX 2 way for rearfill my car is too small for a sub even though I have 2 Brax ML10’s at home 

Still deciding - but my kids school bags take up most of my trunk - so maybe try to make a solid car without a sub for now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Elektra said:


> Maybe Dirac is compensating for something and boosting a certain frequency - I had the same thing on my sub sounded like I was breaking the sub till I measured it and there was a massive peak in the car at around 40hz so I had to drop that by like 12dbs
> 
> You might have had the same issue of sorts
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yep! It had to been
This time I took all the other speakers out , it’s amazing ..... I think it was freaking out with 3 sets of midbass.....

Just the6.5s on there it’s flawless..... the cones barley move now and they play down to 80 without hesitation.....

less truly is more

but using the other 2 sets of midbass to build the tilt was the magic also keeping the heavy living and most importantly harmonic structure on the “mains” (3ways) as a baseline. So in the sum there’s a flat response..... and flat is harmonically balanced....

less is more ...... at least when it comes to summing multiples.....


I think turning down the magnitude to -5.5db and curtain off the rest was leaving 20-80 without the -5.5db cut..... and the other midbass sums affecting the magnitude causing some cancellations making Dirac add where it didn’t need

adding them in post Dirac with the 3 ways ..... my goodness...... this is an amazing system now .... it’s what I originally wanted


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## zech912

oabeieo said:


> So did a really good tune on everything last nite.... super careful firs, (and btw these drivers needed almost nothing as far as driver eq for stop band peaks. They were uniform no matter what slope I threw at them. Quite impressive. Minimum phase through the crossover is really important... these have some magic dust in them for this.
> 
> overall sound quality is quite good... except. (Nick I need you for this one)
> 
> the 6wm amd the 8wm both have a characteristic sound that is a little dry. It sounds a tiny bit almost spitty, but it’s not.
> 
> on some drum synth beats the beat isn’t totally smooth, it almost sounds like wood knocking. Mine do this, the ones in my store do this, amd the three other sets I’ve installed do this....
> 
> after a careful listen, it sounds almost like these sounds are actually part of the music (maybe) and it’s just good detail, at other times it sounds like wood dowels clacking, with a spitty overtone. But it stays perfectly clean, does it at all volumes, no clipping what so ever. Even tuned with Dirac still does it... it’s the speaker..... some songs that don’t do that are fantastic sounding... it’s just certain, dry synth beats that I’m hearing it....
> 
> Anyone (nick) know what I’m talking about and have any input good or bad?
> 
> I also noticed the 6wm bottoming easy. It pushed it back to 250HP with a 2nd order slope. It moves only about 4mm.... I can’t cross it at 80. It makes horrible popping. To cross at 80, you have to have perfect reinforcement. If your driving the response at all it will bottom out.... the 6wm really is more of a midrange/midbass without the woofer aspect. Maybe that’s a poor way to describe it, it seems more like, it’s only really designed to work within its parameters... like everything is tightly held together and as soon as the driver is pushed even a little more it goes to ****. There a lot like a dynaudio in this regard. These really remind me of esotec drivers a lot...(the 6&8)
> 
> the 3.5 just loves being crossed (now at 1200hz) up high.... I tried 400,600,800,1000,1200,1300,1400
> 1200 was the best..... no doubt. This one just excels up high, the 6wm was noticeably smoother under 1k. The 3.5wm in my humble opinion just doesn’t have the cone size amd motor to play under 1k and be able to keep its composure at very high levels. At moderate levels, the 3.5wm was good down to about 300hz.... when I put it at 400hz , I would turn it up loud and the vocal wasn’t super smooth. Just couldn’t get enough energy from the small cone to fill those large frequencies. Although it would do it with hi fidelity, it just started to simply get strained when pushed super hard.
> So 1200 is my number with this one...
> 
> If i had a 3 way front stage and was using the 3.5wm as a midbass/midrange (300-3000) and had a 6wm that was farther away and down low, I would definitely be experimenting with some 1st order slopes and trying very hard to get 1st order on this one. I would probably start at 1k BW6 and put an octave separation in the “crossover “ and put the 6wm at 500hzBW6 and work the sums carefully..... I definitely would not run for a 250hz LR4 for this one, not after last night. That’s definitely where I would start and go from there and change things up until I get it right. (Which could be a LR4 at 250, who knows) I just would definitely try to get the sound field correct with a 1st order sum first. And go from


your thoughts on the 8wm and 6wm improved over time as you changed configuration. just wondering if your thoughts changed about the drums not being smooth, like "wood knocking"or "wood dowels clacking"?


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## oabeieo

zech912 said:


> your thoughts on the 8wm and 6wm improved over time as you changed configuration. just wondering if your thoughts changed about the drums not being smooth, like "wood knocking"or "wood dowels clacking"?



So here’s what I’ve noticed with WM 6s n 8s 
After Installing and tuning many more sets now on top of mine 

There’s extremely well behaved as far as responce…. But the suspension sorta wiggles and if you play them past there limits there downright noisy. 

These drivers do not like to be abused. They won’t tolerate it. They bottom out and make pinging like described sounds when played too hard…. The surround is soft and stretchy which allows the cone to move almost sideways. This seems to only be a thing when played way way too hard. 

The 8s are better then 6s and I believe it’s lower fs is to thank (simply more mass) 

Run these drivers within there limits the way they were designed and there absolutely fantastic. 


If your not driving into a null and have complete reinforcement below 125hz ish (where Excurtion becomes an issue) then there should be no need to overdrive these as you will have plenty of response. If your responce starts to drop below 200 and you have to Eq all the beautiful sensitivity out above 200 you’ll surly be left with a low power handling bass section of these drivers…


Overall , man these are excellent drivers. As with anything hi end and these use very sophisticated design, it really needs to be operated within the design limits, which equates to about 10mm (1cm) total two way excursion. Period…. That should be more then adequate with proper reinforcement

I didn’t start hearing artifacts at what looked like about 20mm or 2cm total excursion…. So there some room for power…. …. Keep ‘em out of a small enclosure with a high Q! That will definitely add more Excurtion. These want to be IB or BIG sealed or ported (likely bigger then a door or kick can facilitate) 

There naturally highQ although allows modest power with maximum sound output above fs… below FS these fall short and require some acoustical damping to help mitigate fs…(perhaps a bass reflex tuned around 45 would be very nice) 

All that means is run them above fs and they’ll scream be super transient and take power.


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