# New PPI amps (Phantom & Black Ice)



## PPI_GUY

Just took a look at the PPI website and noticed two new lines of amps that have been added to the online catalog for 2011. The Phantoms are a series of compact class D amps available in 1/2/4 and 5 channels. The Black Ice series seems to be an overbuilt a/b and d class group of amps. Not quite sure what demographic they are made to serve however. Maybe Grizz Archer will stop by to give the breakdown.

PrecisionPower - Amplifiers


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## jace314

Not bad looking...
I saw the Art Series "Coming Soon". Anyone with any pics out there yet of what they will look like, and specs maybe?


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## PPI_GUY

jace314 said:


> Not bad looking...
> I saw the Art Series "Coming Soon". Anyone with any pics out there yet of what they will look like, and specs maybe?


My understanding is the "Art Series" is dead. Atleast according to Grizz Archer. Not sure why they continue to leave it up though. 
There was a 'contest' thread on this site several months ago where we could come up with a new design for a new series of amps that would replace the Art Series (that never was)...I know it's kinda confusing if you haven't followed the whole saga.
Then...there was some discussion and urging by some for PPI to go in a new direction with compact D class amps. Perhaps these "Phantom" amps are the results of all of that?
I'm curious about these "Black Ice" amps and where exactly they fall in the pecking order. It kinda looks like Epsilon is taking the same marketing tact with PPI that they have with SoundStream.
Hey Grizz, are you out there?

By the way, if you want to read the whole "Art design saga", here you go...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...estions-art-series-amps-thread-continued.html


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## King Nothing

Pretty impressive power specs on the phantoms. 190x2 and 145x4 respectively for the 2 and 4 channel


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## wdemetrius1

Very nice looking.


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## n_olympios

Are they really? From those small pics, the Black Ice seem ok, but the Phantom series reminds me of... well, the '90s. And I don't mean it in a good way. 

Impressive specs though.


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## PPI_GUY

There is now a disclaimer up that says the pics may not be of the actual amps and that new pics are coming. I hate it when they do that!


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## minni

Those look nice hopefully the actual amps look similar to the picture


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## JoeHemi57

I like the specs on the phantoms, not really digging the cosmetics though.


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## minni

JoeHemi57 said:


> I like the specs on the phantoms, not really digging the cosmetics though.


What's wrong with how it looks?


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## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> My understanding is the "Art Series" is dead. Atleast according to Grizz Archer. Not sure why they continue to leave it up though. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...estions-art-series-amps-thread-continued.html


It was my understanding in the whole mess of things that there was nothing wrong with using the term "Art Collection" as long as the product didn't include any copyright infringing art. 

Regardless, I thought the prototyped copper and black color scheme without the artwork looked pretty damn cool.


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## bkjay

Wow they have head units to


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## PPI_GUY

They must be updating right now as they have taken down the Art Series amps that had the "Coming Soon" under that tab.
Are the source units the same as the Power Acoustik's with PPI labels?


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## JoeHemi57

minni said:


> What's wrong with how it looks?


I don't like the huge circle logo, they should have just used a smaller logo and kept the amp flat. I also really don't care for that shade of gold they are using either.


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## starboy869

I'm really digging this line. the black ice

phantom is alright.... 

the BK2100.1D just WOW... 2100 wrms @ 1 ohm...


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## starboy869

****................. head units also. 

•Front Panel USB 2.0 & SDHC Readers
•Front Panel 3.5mm AUX A/V Input


+thumbs up


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## bkjay

Hmmmmmm I think I've seen these before.
Reference Components


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## jimmy2345

Is there really a need for so many different amp lines? I think not.


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## ChrisB

jimmy2345 said:


> Is there really a need for so many different amp lines? I think not.


I don't know if you know this or not, but, the same company that owns PPI also owns Soundstream, Farenheit Technologies, Kole, and Power Acoustik. Regardless, I agree that they sure do have a weird business philosophy to have so many different lines of amplifiers per brand name under one parent company. 

While I am thinking about it, I wonder what circuit boards are shared across all brand names? I ask because it just doesn't make business sense to have that many different lines of amplifier under each brand name without some commonality. Even coming from a mass production build-house in China, radically different designs would jack up the cost per unit quite a bit.


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## jimmy2345

I can't believe people buy this junk.

As Chris B. stated, all of the lines are most likely similar and just rebadged. No thought is put into any of it, let alone good quality engineering. The damn Soundstream components look 90% like the PPI components. They aren't trying very hard to fool anyone.


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## PPI_GUY

jimmy2345 said:


> I can't believe people buy this junk.
> 
> As Chris B. stated, all of the lines are most likely similar and just rebadged. No thought is put into any of it, let alone good quality engineering. The damn Soundstream components look 90% like the PPI components. They aren't trying very hard to fool anyone.


I am not willing to believe that there isn't any difference between the Power Acoustik stuff and the SS/PPI. People aren't _that_ stupid. I know the same subject has come up regarding the Maxxsonics brands. According to a Maxx rep, their flagship line (MB Quart) doesn't share the same boards with Hifonics, Autotek, etc. The same is probably true with Epsilon and PPI.


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## jimmy2345

PPI isnt what it was back in the day. In my opinion, they arent any better today than any of the other junk brands.


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## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> I am not willing to believe that there isn't any difference between the Power Acoustik stuff and the SS/PPI. People aren't _that_ stupid. I know the same subject has come up regarding the Maxxsonics brands. According to a Maxx rep, their flagship line (MB Quart) doesn't share the same boards with Hifonics, Autotek, etc. The same is probably true with Epsilon and PPI.


On the flagship lines, that may be true. On the similarly priced budget lines per brand, I wouldn't be shocked if they were relatively the same with a different look to them.


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## starboy869

and here comes the bitching and drame part..

always happens in any ppi thread


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## fatman406

*ahem* back to the subjuect...... I wouldnt mind running one of those black ice amplifiers in my car, IMO there dead sexy:biggrinflip:


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## jimmy2345

fatman406 said:


> *ahem* back to the subjuect...... I wouldnt mind running one of those black ice amplifiers in my car, IMO there dead sexy:biggrinflip:


Only if an amplifiers look had some coorelation to the way it sounds........


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## fatman406

meh, as they say "don't knock it till you try it" if it looks good and sounds good then jackpot, but if it just looks good then.... either its an expensive paper weight or you could go mad scientist and make your own Board for the amp casing. Personally i have faith that epsilon will do the ppi brand justice irregardless of the product cross pollination, but again, only time will tell


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## subwoofery

jimmy2345 said:


> Only if an amplifiers look had some coorelation to the way it sounds........


You have a lot of bad things to say about something that haven't even hit the market?  

Nice... 

Kelvin


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## jimmy2345

subwoofery said:


> You have a lot of bad things to say about something that haven't even hit the market?
> 
> Nice...
> 
> Kelvin


You have lost hope in an amplifier brand that hasn't made a quality product in a long time.


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## subwoofery

Well Epsilon is really trying to make things better for PPI. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt? Phoenix Gold surely managed to make a great comeback. 

Kelvin


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## jimmy2345

Are you insinuating that Phoenix Gold is even close in quality to what they once were? 

I wouldn't touch anything they make right now.


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## trojan fan

jimmy2345 said:


> Are you insinuating that Phoenix Gold is even close in quality to what they once were?
> 
> I wouldn't touch anything they make right now.


Hey big jimmy, you sit here and post negative comments about all these different brands,so what brands do you use? I would like to express my opinions on them, and so would others.Do you even own any car audio gear?

So according to you PPI, PG and JL is junk, useless overpriced paperweights


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## subwoofery

Close in quality? Yes. My friend is a die hard PG fan (has a few frank'amp, ZPA, Octane Ltd Ed, Bandit and such) and has a few of the new amps from each line. Overbuilt is the adjective he used for the new models. 
You should check their website... They are coming back and are going to be a really strong contender in a few years. 

FYI, Rodin doesn't own PG anymore 

Kelvin 

PS: 2011 catalogue is out.


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## subwoofery

trojan fan said:


> Hey big jimmy, you sit here and post negative comments about all these different brands,so what brands do you use? I would like to express my opinions on them, and so would others.Do you even own any car audio gear?
> 
> So according to you PPI, PG and JL is junk, useless overpriced paperweights


He likes Blues Car Audio & Linear Power. Everything else is "useless" by his standards. 

I don't think I've seen many positive post from him about other brands. 

Kelvin


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## ChrisB

subwoofery said:


> FYI, Rodin doesn't own PG anymore


Rodin had some diamonds in the rough. I ran the RSD components and the RSD subs and found them to be excellent performers for their pricing point. I know others who ran the RSDc subwoofers and absolutely loved them too.

I can't comment on the new PPI because the nearest dealer is over 300 miles away, one way.


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## fatman406

jimmy2345 said:


> Are you insinuating that Phoenix Gold is even close in quality to what they once were?
> 
> I wouldn't touch anything they make right now.


You just have to keep an open mind about these things, 

new owners = new product
but that doesn't mean its a bad product, especially if you havent experienced it before, but like i said _*Time Will Tell.*_


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## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> My understanding is the "Art Series" is dead. Atleast according to Grizz Archer. Not sure why they continue to leave it up though.
> There was a 'contest' thread on this site several months ago where we could come up with a new design for a new series of amps that would replace the Art Series (that never was)...I know it's kinda confusing if you haven't followed the whole saga.
> Then...there was some discussion and urging by some for PPI to go in a new direction with compact D class amps. Perhaps these "Phantom" amps are the results of all of that?
> I'm curious about these "Black Ice" amps and where exactly they fall in the pecking order. It kinda looks like Epsilon is taking the same marketing tact with PPI that they have with SoundStream.
> Hey Grizz, are you out there?
> 
> By the way, if you want to read the whole "Art design saga", here you go...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...estions-art-series-amps-thread-continued.html


Yeah, I'm here. Sorry so late. I do not get on here to search around so fortunately I got a heads up that this new thread might need some attention...

Sooooo. Phantom us exactly what it looks like. Small fullrange Class D amps to hit that growing market. But loaded with "My Famous" preamp section. Not famous as in super well know obviously. But once I did the preamps section on the new Rubicons, there really wasn't anything left to be desired so I put the same basic preamps on everything since and have not gotten a complaint since (knocking on wood since I am addressing the ever anal DIYMA guys...) lol

Let's face it some of us think Art was the best and some think Power Class. might depend on age of the opinion. Regardless, if you do not like the ovaly shape of Power Class, or the pearl white and silver, then you're kind of screwed unless you got the Sedona series. The Black Ice series is a mid-sized amplifier with all all the cool features and even balanced line inputs. But they bridge the gap between Sedona and Power Class. 

The top is actually heatformed lexan, not aluminum, so it looks sick! One of the problem that I saw with stackable designs is the heat that gets trapped between the amps and cause premature thermal shutdown. I am not picking on anybody in particular, it just makes sense. The Soundstream Stealth have Lexan tops, proving that they cool themselves from the side fins and do not have the same problem as stackable amps with aluminum tops. Anyway, people loved the black lexan tops so much that we incorporated that into Black Ice Series.

As for Art... As a promise to Carolyn, and to just do the right thing, Art amps are not even on the drawing board. However, my original concept from 3 years ago is still in my heart If we could afford to work with Carloyn again and do it right, with her blessing, but with some sick new innards, I would be all over it!


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## Grizz Archer

n_olympios said:


> Are they really? From those small pics, the Black Ice seem ok, but the Phantom series reminds me of... well, the '90s. And I don't mean it in a good way.
> 
> Impressive specs though.


If you do not like the 90s, then you may not like the future. These were not intended to look 90s. I have been bitching for awhile not that some people do not fall for all the foo foo motor covers, amp spoilers and stuff like that. Some people want to pay for performance, not $100k in tooling. I get it, I am the same way. So next year, rather than spending $10 on a motor cover, you may get a longer voice coil, higher grade magnet, etc. Everybody at my company disagreed with my proposal, but recently my boss came on board after CES and everybody was craving old school stuff, not wussy entry level products with fancy covers that put cost higher tan it could've been...

We'll see if I made the right choice or if I made a horrific mistake...


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## Grizz Archer

JoeHemi57 said:


> I like the specs on the phantoms, not really digging the cosmetics though.


Interesting and fair enough. I happen to love them. They are not intended to big bid flashy type amps and will many times be hidden due to their compact size. But I just love the old and beefy (considering the size) heatsink and I still have a boner for black and copper together...

Maybe they'll be one of those love em or hate em products. Mt research shows that after the first year of the new PPI, people really love the black and copper...


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## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> It was my understanding in the whole mess of things that there was nothing wrong with using the term "Art Collection" as long as the product didn't include any copyright infringing art.
> 
> Regardless, I thought the prototyped copper and black color scheme without the artwork looked pretty damn cool.


CHY owns the right to the artwork as we all know by now, but also to the design of the heatsink. Trying to make a derivative is not only illegal, but it is very shady and unprofessional as well. We have a derivative design that would knock everybody's socks off, but we are stick and cannot do anything with it. If we start totally from scratch and make it 100% different, then why even call it Art? In my opinion, it needs to blessed by Carolyn, include the features I want and be equal to Power Class, but with a new spin that will remain unknown for now...


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## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> ...but recently my boss came on board after CES and everybody was craving old school stuff, not wussy entry level products with fancy covers that put cost higher tan it could've been...


^^^
I like the sound of that and I agree that Art is best left as is. 
Good luck on the PPI revival.


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## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> They must be updating right now as they have taken down the Art Series amps that had the "Coming Soon" under that tab.
> Are the source units the same as the Power Acoustik's with PPI labels?


AHA! Now this is huge... Listen carefully. In the past, Power Acoustik, Soundstream, SPL and Farenheit radios were identical. How do you think were we able to sell full featured radios for 1/2 of what the Japanese cost, AND make dealers enjoy 30-40 points instead if 5-10 in the Japanese "race to zero" profit margin.

The new radios are light years further than we have ever gone before. While the INGENIX radios will be in the different brand. Th buttons will be different. Some of the internal features will be different. Heck we even used two different processors, one for SS and PPI and another for FAR and SPL, with the PPI and SS being an 800mHz!!! You really need to see these things. Most have no lettering or logos whatsoever on them. Very stealthy, tons of programming features. Apple Mac style drag-n-drop icons, and alot more. I am not a video guy, but these are badass!

So... NO, THEY ARE NOT ALL THE SAME!!!


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## Grizz Archer

JoeHemi57 said:


> I don't like the huge circle logo, they should have just used a smaller logo and kept the amp flat. I also really don't care for that shade of gold they are using either.


Sorry not a great picture. It is copper, not gold...


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## Grizz Archer

starboy869 said:


> ****................. head units also.
> 
> •Front Panel USB 2.0 & SDHC Readers
> •Front Panel 3.5mm AUX A/V Input
> 
> 
> +thumbs up


Keep reading. 32 gig media storage devices accepted and even up to a 250 gig USB powered external hard drive. Plus, whether you wan to work on your ext drive or you iPod, there is a full file manager section to do your manipulation... I can't freaking wait for one of you guys to get your hands on one and give your report on the forum...


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## PPI_GUY

The Black Ice amps look very cool and seem to offer serious power, especially that 2100 watt monster. Is that power rating legit RMS or the dreaded "Max"? What kind of components are used in the BI series? When will all these new goodies start to ship?


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## Grizz Archer

bkjay said:


> Hmmmmmm I think I've seen these before.
> Reference Components


The 2.5" is the same.

The 6.5" now uses an aluminum basket and different suspension.

The tweeters is an aluminum 25mm dome with a silk surround. PPI is 20mm with no surround.

Xover has 5-way tweeter adjustment, unlike PPI.

So, as you can see, they are actually very different but with some key unique features like the 2.5" mid for a-pilars and dashtops...


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## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Is there really a need for so many different amp lines? I think not.


I tend to agree with you. So let me ask you a question... Which one would you get rid one from a business stand point?

Power Class - high end
Nope!

Sedona - entry level
Nope!

Phantom - Mini
Nope!

Black Ice - mid level
Nope!

lol We think need all of them. Obviously the entry level is a crucial item that sells alot. Gotta have the step up mid series for the guys who is more passionate and wants more performance. And with minis getting so popular, we missed the boat in the beginning and now must comply with market demand. So that leaves the high end PC series. As an enthusiast, I say keep it, but if I owned the company and one series had to go, it would be PC since it will sell the least until people are willing to support the industry again. 

So what would you do?


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## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> I don't know if you know this or not, but, the same company that owns PPI also owns Soundstream, Farenheit Technologies, Kole, and Power Acoustik. Regardless, I agree that they sure do have a weird business philosophy to have so many different lines of amplifiers per brand name under one parent company.
> 
> While I am thinking about it, I wonder what circuit boards are shared across all brand names? I ask because it just doesn't make business sense to have that many different lines of amplifier under each brand name without some commonality. Even coming from a mass production build-house in China, radically different designs would jack up the cost per unit quite a bit.


Kole is dead and gone. Farenheit is all video and is a premier line for expediters. SPL is our entry level line even though there are a couple of killer pieces int he line. Power Acoustik is the mid line and the bread and butter of the company. Soundstream is the high end company that has a lot of SPL equipment and some SQ pieces. PPI is another high end line that we bought really cheap and can turn into a very profitable company again and will be more versatile than before. Let's face it guys, SQ is nice but the money is in SPL and the boomer kid. I am not 100% positive, I cannot think of a single board that is in the PA lines that is in SS or PPI. Not one. However, I can tell you that the Black Ice is a new board, but it is based off of the Rubicon which is a damn good start.

You are very right though. Some of the PA boards will be in the SPL products as well. But just because we own all the companies does not mean it will also be the same. We need each brand because each makes money. It's like DEI pretty much owning the security market. They couldn't with one brand, but they do with all the brands combined...


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## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> PPI isnt what it was back in the day. In my opinion, they arent any better today than any of the other junk brands.


This is where I should shut up like the other manufacturers do, but I gotta know... What are your qualifications? You obviously have a strong engineering background, so I would like to know what your background is so I can get the appropriate engineer to fill me with answers to your unasked questions.


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## Grizz Archer

starboy869 said:


> and here comes the bitching and drame part..
> 
> always happens in any ppi thread


You read my mind man! I just can't seem to please the know-it-alls that swear that it is impossible to make amps better than the technology of 15-20+ years ago. The rest of the world advances, but every car audio company strives to engineer new technology that is good as products from the past. I laughed about this for years, but now it is just so freaking old... Wake me up when it is over.


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## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> You have a lot of bad things to say about something that haven't even hit the market?
> 
> Nice...
> 
> Kelvin


Maybe us SoCal beach guys are just stupid. I hope when they are done with their insight, that they will send us their unit since we do not even have final samples yet. We can go to the brewery and see how they figured so much out about something that doesn't exist.


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## slowsedan01

Grizz Archer said:


> I tend to agree with you. So let me ask you a question... Which one would you get rid one from a business stand point?
> 
> Power Class - high end
> Nope!
> 
> Sedona - entry level
> Nope!
> 
> Phantom - Mini
> Nope!
> 
> Black Ice - mid level
> Nope!
> 
> lol We think need all of them. Obviously the entry level is a crucial item that sells alot. Gotta have the step up mid series for the guys who is more passionate and wants more performance. And with minis getting so popular, we missed the boat in the beginning and now must comply with market demand. So that leaves the high end PC series. As an enthusiast, I say keep it, but if I owned the company and one series had to go, it would be PC since it will sell the least until people are willing to support the industry again.
> 
> So what would you do?


Grizz,

I have to agree with you here. Thanks for clearing up the confusion on the differences in the products. Perhaps maybe a Epsilon differentiators thread so you can explain all of the details about how they are different. Will PPI and SS be a big part of SBN, will you be there?


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## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> He likes Blues Car Audio & Linear Power. Everything else is "useless" by his standards.
> 
> I don't think I've seen many positive post from him about other brands.
> 
> Kelvin


You're ****ting me right? I loved Liner Power before I had kid and grandkids. Nice amps. Zero protection back in the day, but hey maybe that is the technology we need to go back to? Your thoughts?:laugh:


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## ChrisB

Grizz Archer said:


> Kole is dead and gone. Farenheit is all video and is a premier line for expediters. SPL is our entry level line even though there are a couple of killer pieces int he line. Power Acoustik is the mid line and the bread and butter of the company. Soundstream is the high end company that has a lot of SPL equipment and some SQ pieces. PPI is another high end line that we bought really cheap and can turn into a very profitable company again and will be more versatile than before. Let's face it guys, SQ is nice but the money is in SPL and the boomer kid. I am not 100% positive, I cannot think of a single board that is in the PA lines that is in SS or PPI. Not one. However, I can tell you that the Black Ice is a new board, but it is based off of the Rubicon which is a damn good start.
> 
> You are very right though. Some of the PA boards will be in the SPL products as well. But just because we own all the companies does not mean it will also be the same. We need each brand because each makes money. It's like DEI pretty much owning the security market. They couldn't with one brand, but they do with all the brands combined...


Thanks for taking the time to explain this and I apologize if I came off like a *******.

That brings up another thought... It must be tough having both the Soundstream Reference and Precision Power Power Class lines competing against one another.


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## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> The Black Ice amps look very cool and seem to offer serious power, especially that 2100 watt monster. Is that power rating legit RMS or the dreaded "Max"? What kind of components are used in the BI series? When will all these new goodies start to ship?


Not sure on ship dates just yet but hopefully not too long! We do not do max ratings in PPI or SS, only SS, EXCEPT FOR PRO AUDIO which is only rated MAX as it have been for decades before it ever made it to car audio...


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## Grizz Archer

slowsedan01 said:


> Grizz,
> 
> I have to agree with you here. Thanks for clearing up the confusion on the differences in the products. Perhaps maybe a Epsilon differentiators thread so you can explain all of the details about how they are different. Will PPI and SS be a big part of SBN, will you be there?


October through now is hell for me because I have no help at work to finish products, CES, etc... Anyway, forum are normally where people whine and ***** which is why I abandoned them for about a decade. Many people here will email directly to learn about the products. Or they post and want to hear. I may not always have all the right answers, but they are truthful.

SBN? Never heard of it. JUST KIDDING!!! Two years ago, IASCA introduced the Bruce Terrel Award. We won it both years for being the most supportive manufacturer. In the last two years we won 19 and 22 trophies with Team Soundstream. This year I went from a 20x40 booth to a 25x80 booth! We have 3 dist training rooms and over 30 vehicles so far, more than ever. So yeah, we'll be there bigger than ever. I love the IASCA guys and they know that we get it! I will be there from Thursday through Tuesday. Since thursday is Saint Paddy's day, I'll be at the Irish Pub, Robbie O'Connels for several hours. If you haven't heard, I like beer a little bit, Actually, alot of my team is staying at the same resort so we'll have a cool posse of peeps hanging around. Stop by and introduce yourself!


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## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> You're ****ting me right? I loved Liner Power before I had kid and grandkids. Nice amps. Zero protection back in the day, but hey maybe that is the technology we need to go back to? Your thoughts?:laugh:


Not one product that will ever come out of Epsilon will ever compare to a Linear Power or Blues product. You are on one level....and they are far above that. There is something called sound quality.....I am sure thats a new phrase to Epsilon. Might want to grab a dictionary.

Its not even worth discussing with you....your market is not the same.


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## slowsedan01

jimmy2345 said:


> Not one product that will ever come out of Epsilon will ever compare to a Linear Power or Blues product. You are on one level....and they are far above that. There is something called sound quality.....I am sure thats a new phrase to Epsilon. Might want to grab a dictionary.
> 
> Its not even worth discussing with you....your market is not the same.


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## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> But once I did the preamps section on the new Rubicons, there really wasn't anything left to be desired so I put the same basic preamps on everything since and have not gotten a complaint


Nothing left to be desired....my arse.


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## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> Thanks for taking the time to explain this and I apologize if I came off like a *******.
> 
> That brings up another thought... It must be tough having both the Soundstream Reference and Precision Power Power Class lines competing against one another.


Nah, you're cool man. PPI is so new so we had a prototype car at SBN last year, but this year I have a huge PPI SQ surprise car that is going to attempt something never before done. And possibly 1-2 other guys that are going to be there. Alot of people think that SS is only SPL, but Jeff to home world championships last year against a car with $50k dash. Getting people to try SQ products is not easy. Team JBL and Zapco own the SQ arena as far as I have seen. I would glady put up a ref amp in a 3rd party contest between us 3 brands. It would interesting to see the differences and I think the results would surprise alot of people, especially the "old school 15-20 years old amps are better" guys... I love contests! No childish threats, just for fun and learning for all of us...


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## FAUEE

Grizz Archer said:


> Nah, you're cool man. PPI is so new so we had a prototype car at SBN last year, but this year I have a huge PPI SQ surprise car that is going to attempt something never before done. And possibly 1-2 other guys that are going to be there. Alot of people think that SS is only SPL, but Jeff to home world championships last year against a car with $50k dash. Getting people to try SQ products is not easy. Team JBL and Zapco own the SQ arena as far as I have seen. I would glady put up a ref amp in a 3rd party contest between us 3 brands. It would interesting to see the differences and I think the results would surprise alot of people, especially the "old school 15-20 years old amps are better" guys... I love contests! No childish threats, just for fun and learning for all of us...


So which line is going to be better for SQ? PPI or SS?

I definitely like the copper and black look of the PPI stuff, but I also like the look of the SS REF amps. I think he Phantom and PDX are the best looking lines that PPI has, but they don't really "match".

The new source units look nice. I had heard with the PA units you couldn't use the nav and music at the same time, has this been changed?


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Not one product that will ever come out of Epsilon will ever compare to a Linear Power or Blues product. You are on one level....and they are far above that. There is something called sound quality.....I am sure thats a new phrase to Epsilon. Might want to grab a dictionary.
> 
> Its not even worth discussing with you....your market is not the same.


Wow! I sure am glad you know everything How many world titles have you had? How many years have you been engineering transducers, amplifiers or anything for that matter? Did you not have any qualifications that I asked for previously that you could share? I am, glad you like what you have. Really, I am. And I am glad that you think that engineering had gotten worse and degraded over the last 2 decades. If that works for ya, great. BTW, what Blues car audio company are you referring to. Are you referring to the old Blues company that was acoustic based? If so, it just so happens that the head engineer was my mentor for years in the 90s so I can tell you all about his works dating back to 19 years with Altec Lansing. So let's chat, shall we? Where do we go first? Oh yeah... Qualifications. I'll start...

I am not an amplifier engineer and never claimed to be. You are obviously, so you beat me there. Where did you learn?

I have 27 years experience. You?

I have been to almost every country in both Asia and South America, plus Europe, Canada, Mexico, etc. All doing from 4 hour to full weekend seminars. You? 

I have several transducers that I have engineered on the market. You?

I have written For Car Audio & Electronics, Car Stereo Review, Auto Sound & Security, and more magazines. And then there is all the websites... You?

Man, I am not the smartest guy on here, and even thought you think you are, you might want to be humble around some of the guru that float around on here. Man, some of those guys are badass and forgot more than I'll ever know. 

It is impossible to know about a product before it exists. Making statements about non existing products only degrades oneself. And then to compare it to 15-20 year old products is not a good idea either. Gary Springgay said it best when he talked about old school products versus new stuff. You really need to find the article and read it.

In the future, try to learn, since you definitely are not teaching. I love to learn from the more knowledgeable. If you hate PPI, go away and start learning why. But hanging out just to embarrass yourself is not pretty...


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Nothing left to be desired....my arse.


Perfect! SO what would you like to see in the preamp section controls that is not there? Really, you gotta tell me. If you're right, I'll add it. Bring it!!!

Don't your old amps require the use of an external crossover and basically any sound processing? Just curious...


----------



## Grizz Archer

FAUEE said:


> So which line is going to be better for SQ? PPI or SS?
> 
> I definitely like the copper and black look of the PPI stuff, but I also like the look of the SS REF amps. I think he Phantom and PDX are the best looking lines that PPI has, but they don't really "match".
> 
> The new source units look nice. I had heard with the PA units you couldn't use the nav and music at the same time, has this been changed?


We were not going for a match look because then you get all of one type of person and none of the the other type. Trying to be really diverse... In all honesty for amps, I would choose the REF based on paper specs. But the engineer designed both of them so sound will be very similar... For components, if you like the original German MB Quart and the bright, crispyness, then you would like the PCs better. If you prefer a more uncolored and smooth sound, then you would like the SS better. 

But hey, to coincide with with other posts on this thread, maybe some 1980 Pyle Drivers might blow them away. Oh ****! That was funny! Almost peed on that one! lol


----------



## bkjay

Grizz Archer said:


> The 2.5" is the same.
> 
> The 6.5" now uses an aluminum basket and different suspension.
> 
> The tweeters is an aluminum 25mm dome with a silk surround. PPI is 20mm with no surround.
> 
> Xover has 5-way tweeter adjustment, unlike PPI.
> 
> So, as you can see, they are actually very different but with some key unique features like the 2.5" mid for a-pilars and dashtops...


Cool! Thanks for the info. Do you know the xmax on the drivers by chance?


----------



## Grizz Archer

FAUEE said:


> So which line is going to be better for SQ? PPI or SS?
> 
> I definitely like the copper and black look of the PPI stuff, but I also like the look of the SS REF amps. I think he Phantom and PDX are the best looking lines that PPI has, but they don't really "match".
> 
> The new source units look nice. I had heard with the PA units you couldn't use the nav and music at the same time, has this been changed?


Oops, fotgot the other part. Regarding the source units. We have NEVER released a unit, even the first ones, that could not have navigation and music at the same time. Another case of the manual being thrown away by some Einstein that was tool freaking cool to read it. If you hear form the guy again, Tell his to set his Navi, and then hold the source button down until it goes back to the radio. Radio will be in the fore front, and then the Navi will shut of some of the speakers and talk through the rest when directions are being given. Every unit is like that...


----------



## ChrisB

Grizz Archer said:


> Don't your old amps require the use of an external crossover and basically any sound processing? Just curious...


There is a member on this forum who is running Linear Power and Blues in USACi and a certain someone bragged about absolutely ZERO processing in that SQ competition vehicle. Care to guess what Mister "no processing" has housed in his dash under the head unit? An equalizer and an electronic crossover.


----------



## Grizz Archer

bkjay said:


> Cool! Thanks for the info. Do you know the xmax on the drivers by chance?


Not off the top of my head that has been working almost 15 hours, but I think the midbass is about 5-6mm and the the midrange is surprising at about 3-4mm. The mid can move until BL=0 and then still pop out of the gap without damage. But the crossovers will avoid the popping put scenario. The mid, as a stand alone unit truly is a wide bandwitdh driver, operating from 180Hz to 18kHz...


----------



## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> There is a member on this forum who is running Linear Power and Blues in USACi and a certain someone bragged about absolutely ZERO processing in that SQ competition vehicle. Care to guess what Mister "no processing" has housed in his dash under the head unit? An equalizer and an electronic crossover.


You'e ****ting me! Do I dare ask how you know? Hell, even if you were kidding, that would be funny as hell. Well on that funny note, I am outta here. I supposes I will have a bunch of hate mail in morning. Nothing new when I come on here... Thanx for the chuckle!


----------



## FAUEE

Grizz Archer said:


> Oops, fotgot the other part. Regarding the source units. We have NEVER released a unit, even the first ones, that could not have navigation and music at the same time. Another case of the manual being thrown away by some Einstein that was tool freaking cool to read it. If you hear form the guy again, Tell his to set his Navi, and then hold the source button down until it goes back to the radio. Radio will be in the fore front, and then the Navi will shut of some of the speakers and talk through the rest when directions are being given. Every unit is like that...


Nice to know, I think I read it on an Amazon.com review actually.

Would you expect the pricing on the new PPI units to work out around the same as the PA ones? The PA ones are available on ebay for pretty cheap with the Navibox.

Actually, do these require the navibox or is it built in now?


----------



## bkjay

Grizz Archer said:


> Not off the top of my head that has been working almost 15 hours, but I think the midbass is about 5-6mm and the the midrange is surprising at about 3-4mm. The mid can move until BL=0 and then still pop out of the gap without damage. But the crossovers will avoid the popping put scenario. The mid, as a stand alone unit truly is a wide bandwitdh driver, operating from 180Hz to 18kHz...


Thanks Grizz, man I need to try these!


----------



## PPI_GUY

jimmy2345 said:


> Not one product that will ever come out of Epsilon will ever compare to a Linear Power or Blues product. You are on one level....and they are far above that. There is something called sound quality.....I am sure thats a new phrase to Epsilon. Might want to grab a dictionary.
> 
> Its not even worth discussing with you....your market is not the same.


Guy, you are making yourself look really bad with comments like that. 
Grizz has never claimed the new SS or PPi stuff has the market cornered on SQ. You seem to be alittle too defensive about this subject. Maybe this thread isn't for you?


----------



## n_olympios

Grizz Archer said:


> If you do not like the 90s, then you may not like the future. These were not intended to look 90s. I have been bitching for awhile not that some people do not fall for all the foo foo motor covers, amp spoilers and stuff like that. Some people want to pay for performance, not $100k in tooling. I get it, I am the same way. So next year, rather than spending $10 on a motor cover, you may get a longer voice coil, higher grade magnet, etc. Everybody at my company disagreed with my proposal, but recently my boss came on board after CES and everybody was craving old school stuff, not wussy entry level products with fancy covers that put cost higher tan it could've been...
> 
> We'll see if I made the right choice or if I made a horrific mistake...


Grizz, I think you got me wrong, I probably didn't word myself right; I'm not one for flashy covers and design, I'm a sucker for performance too. Heck, I don't even like the look of my Genesis SIII amps, but the build and sound quality out of them certainly overcompensate for the bling.  

I too love old school stuff, but you'll have to admit that in the recent years we've seen some very clean and underrated designs by other brands; mainly because of ClassD and its small size ability, but for A/B amps as well. I'd very much like my beloved PPI brand to bring out something really special. The Phantom series could well be any brand out there. Perhaps I'm being sentimental... 

FWIW I honestly think you've made the right choice. 

PS: looking closely at that pic again (which I probably should've done before replying at an impulse earlier) the main thing that kind of spoils it for me are the end caps, I don't like the legs. A small detail, yeah, but something doesn't look right to me.


----------



## wdemetrius1

PPI_GUY said:


> Guy, you are making yourself look really bad with comments like that.
> Grizz has never claimed the new SS or PPi stuff has the market cornered on SQ. You seem to be alittle too defensive about this subject. Maybe this thread isn't for you?



Agreed!!!! Please just go away.


----------



## subwoofery

jimmy2345 said:


> Not one product that will ever come out of Epsilon will ever compare to a Linear Power or Blues product. You are on one level....and they are far above that. There is something called sound quality.....I am sure thats a new phrase to Epsilon. Might want to grab a dictionary.
> 
> Its not even worth discussing with you....your market is not the same.


Actually, they did release this monster: 









Their freq response is a true 10Hz-30kHz (less than 0.5dB variation), of course it goes lower and higher but it's actually really nice. I know a few higher bill amps that are -3dB @ 15Hz. A few more specs here. 

As you can see, distorsion is on par with the best from Linear. 

Waiting to hear your comment. 

Kelvin


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> Wow! I sure am glad you know everything How many world titles have you had? How many years have you been engineering transducers, amplifiers or anything for that matter? Did you not have any qualifications that I asked for previously that you could share? I am, glad you like what you have. Really, I am. And I am glad that you think that engineering had gotten worse and degraded over the last 2 decades. If that works for ya, great. BTW, what Blues car audio company are you referring to. Are you referring to the old Blues company that was acoustic based? If so, it just so happens that the head engineer was my mentor for years in the 90s so I can tell you all about his works dating back to 19 years with Altec Lansing. So let's chat, shall we? Where do we go first? Oh yeah... Qualifications. I'll start...
> 
> I am not an amplifier engineer and never claimed to be. You are obviously, so you beat me there. Where did you learn?
> 
> I have 27 years experience. You?
> 
> I have been to almost every country in both Asia and South America, plus Europe, Canada, Mexico, etc. All doing from 4 hour to full weekend seminars. You?
> 
> I have several transducers that I have engineered on the market. You?
> 
> I have written For Car Audio & Electronics, Car Stereo Review, Auto Sound & Security, and more magazines. And then there is all the websites... You?
> 
> Man, I am not the smartest guy on here, and even thought you think you are, you might want to be humble around some of the guru that float around on here. Man, some of those guys are badass and forgot more than I'll ever know.
> 
> It is impossible to know about a product before it exists. Making statements about non existing products only degrades oneself. And then to compare it to 15-20 year old products is not a good idea either. Gary Springgay said it best when he talked about old school products versus new stuff. You really need to find the article and read it.
> 
> In the future, try to learn, since you definitely are not teaching. I love to learn from the more knowledgeable. If you hate PPI, go away and start learning why. But hanging out just to embarrass yourself is not pretty...



Since when do my EARS need an advanced engineering degree to tell the difference between what sounds like ass or roses?

My 15+ year experience using everything under the sun is enough experience. 

Not to mention, you are on here hyping a company you work for (credibility already questioned) for lines that have had questionable product for years and haven't been known for true SQ for over a decade. 

Then you want to bring up the whole new technology arguement. So if technology is the only aspect to true SQ then why do you guys have numerous different amp lines with one that is suppose to sound better than the other? According to your arguement, you must put old technology in the lower lines and new technology in your so called "high end" (hilarious) power class. Are you kidding me? New technology is not what makes an amp sound good buddy. Topology, location of components, knowledge of the engineer, companys target market, budget, etc. all have something to do with what a company releases. We all know Epsilon doesn't make a true SQ product. Maybe they make a few amps with clean power.....that's it.....leaving ALOT TO BE DESIRED. Where is the fidelity? Your claims are pretty far fetched for a company with a ****ty reputation for SQ.


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> Guy, you are making yourself look really bad with comments like that.
> Grizz has never claimed the new SS or PPi stuff has the market cornered on SQ. You seem to be alittle too defensive about this subject. Maybe this thread isn't for you?


Direct quote from Grizz Archer; "Team JBL and Zapco own the SQ arena as far as I have seen. I would glady put up a ref amp in a 3rd party contest between us 3 brands. It would interesting to see the differences and I think the results would surprise alot of people, especially the "old school 15-20 years old amps are better" guys... I love contests! No childish threats, just for fun and learning for all of us... "

Pretty far fetched claim there....


----------



## jimmy2345

ChrisB said:


> There is a member on this forum who is running Linear Power and Blues in USACi and a certain someone bragged about absolutely ZERO processing in that SQ competition vehicle. Care to guess what Mister "no processing" has housed in his dash under the head unit? An equalizer and an electronic crossover.


Why don't you tell the whole story flip flopper??

No digital processing.

He has a 4 band preamp with all settings set flat.


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> Perfect! SO what would you like to see in the preamp section controls that is not there? Really, you gotta tell me. If you're right, I'll add it. Bring it!!!
> 
> Don't your old amps require the use of an external crossover and basically any sound processing? Just curious...


How about a better SOUNDING preamp section with some fidelity? Maybe some "lively-ness". There is alot to be desired in that arena.


----------



## FAUEE

jimmy2345 said:


> Since when do my EARS need an advanced engineering degree to tell the difference between what sounds like ass or roses?
> 
> My 15+ year experience using everything under the sun is enough experience.


I know guys who have 15 years of using "everything under the sun" and are still idiots that don't know a damn thing, despite years of ego building.

Ears don't mean a thing, ears are different for everyone. Just because your ears say you don't like a certain brand doesn't mean its not quality. I don't care for the sound of Alpine stuff, that doesn't make it garbage, just means i don't like it. I might not like the sound of their speakers, but that doesn't mean they're not good SQ.


----------



## rexroadj

I really tried to avoid this thread because it was already turning into all the other ones. More ignorant people saying all epsilon products are the same, new stuff cant be as good as the old, because they own entry level brands...they cant make anything of higher quality.... JUST DUMB!

Jimmy.....go put on your helmet and loose your password and login info to this forum!!! You have said some of the absolute dumbest things I have ever read (unfortunately for the forum, its not limited to this thread). I know everyone else wants to say it but have not so I will. GFY!!!!!

Grizz.....So glad to see you back and shedding light on the new stuff..... I have a ton of questions for you and will address some of them here since some other people might want to know the answers as well......
About the ss 3way set... Having owned the ppi set, it sounds like you expanded on a few things (I personaly found lacking for my use anyway). Would you say the midbass is a little beefier then the ppi? I found that the biggest thing for me with that set was that they midbass just couldnt take a great deal of power and dish out the lows with some real authority. Now when I say that, I dont mean they couldnt play low because they really could. They just couldnt do it very loud. The midrange: I am so glad they are the same. Those are some of the best sounding midranges I have ever used (at any size or price) and found them to be about as easy as possible to install. The tweets on the ppi set I found to be pretty nice so I am curious to hear the ss set. The xover was really nice but the terminals on them were kind of a pita? Are those changed at all? Were there more tweeter mounting options included in the new set and will there be a little more detailed manual with the set (install) I was very surprised by this with the ppi set? Overall for the money I dont think your going to find a better sounding 3way so I am curious as to the price point on the ss set too? (PS. I just sold my comps so I am shoppin for a new set 
On to the amps....... Well I am intrigued by the new class d's? I am also shopping for new amps  I prefer super powerfull 2channel amps and run a few of them!
What is the base for the nav? (garmin, tomtom,etc??) my excelon is getting a little old and I might be interested in trying out the new ppi double din depending on the release dates, nav, and a few other things.... 

Kelvin; I have that HRU. and I would put it head to head against any amp on the market, good call! It replaced all mcintosh and I would take it over the mcintosh all day long! Also would take the ss ref amps over the mcintosh as well! I LOVE THOSE AMPS, and because of them I am willing and interested to try anything of that level from epsilon (just using mcintosh as a high level comparison)


----------



## Grizz Archer

FAUEE said:


> Nice to know, I think I read it on an Amazon.com review actually.
> 
> Would you expect the pricing on the new PPI units to work out around the same as the PA ones? The PA ones are available on ebay for pretty cheap with the Navibox.
> 
> Actually, do these require the navibox or is it built in now?


No no no no! Please understand that the PPI units are INGENIX units. INGENIX for all brands will have Navi built-in. They are double the cost of what our best unit s were before. ANything that takes a Navibox is NOT INGENIX and is in a totally different realm. The INGENIX unit have an MSRP of $1099.95 for PPI...


----------



## Grizz Archer

n_olympios said:


> Grizz, I think you got me wrong, I probably didn't word myself right; I'm not one for flashy covers and design, I'm a sucker for performance too. Heck, I don't even like the look of my Genesis SIII amps, but the build and sound quality out of them certainly overcompensate for the bling.
> 
> I too love old school stuff, but you'll have to admit that in the recent years we've seen some very clean and underrated designs by other brands; mainly because of ClassD and its small size ability, but for A/B amps as well. I'd very much like my beloved PPI brand to bring out something really special. The Phantom series could well be any brand out there. Perhaps I'm being sentimental...
> 
> FWIW I honestly think you've made the right choice.
> 
> PS: looking closely at that pic again (which I probably should've done before replying at an impulse earlier) the main thing that kind of spoils it for me are the end caps, I don't like the legs. A small detail, yeah, but something doesn't look right to me.


I got ya. Genesis looks like jewelry and I would expect that from them. Cool stuff. As far as I know, the Phantom is not in any other brand. And it there were something a bit similar, it would not have my preamp section. Dude, I freaking hate end caps!!! I hate them badly! I think they're gay! This is not the 80s. I love my wiring to be seen because that is my favorite part of an install - ultra sano wiring. Ya know, I turn down at least a dozen people for sponsorship every week due to their sloppy wiring. If they can't wire a vehicle, they sure as hell can't tune one! At least they are not as big as Picasso and Tarantula. Some people love end caps, and that is fine, I;m just not one of those people...


----------



## ChrisB

jimmy2345 said:


> Why don't you tell the whole story flip flopper??
> 
> No digital processing.
> 
> He has a 4 band preamp with all settings set flat.


Hey, you are the one who said it was a 2 seat SQ truck with NO processing, not I. Last time I checked out the definition of the word no, it meant, zero, zilch, NONE! Every item in the signal chain, whether analog or digital, has the potential to alter the signal and therefore IS indeed processing. Even that EQ that is set flat is a form of processing since it has an input and an output. If you want to get technical about it, the CD source head unit is a form of processing too. How exactly do those 0s and 1s get to the RCA inputs on the amplifier again?

Regardless YOU are the one who said Randall's truck was a 2 seat SQ vehicle with "no processing" and winning 2 seat SQ classes with passive crossovers. So, what is that XO3 doing in the dash then? Are you going to tell me it is only for the subs?

Edit: My bad, you must have been talking about time alignment.


----------



## PPI_GUY

jimmy2345 said:


> Direct quote from Grizz Archer; "Team JBL and Zapco own the SQ arena as far as I have seen. I would glady put up a ref amp in a 3rd party contest between us 3 brands. It would interesting to see the differences and I think the results would surprise alot of people, especially the "old school 15-20 years old amps are better" guys... I love contests! No childish threats, just for fun and learning for all of us... "
> 
> Pretty far fetched claim there....


What is "far fetched" about his challenge? Grizz has the balls to want to put a SS Ref. up against the acknowledged leaders in SQ competition. If as you say Epsilion makes nothing but junk, you should be happy to see such a challenge. It _should_ prove your point. By the way, I did notice that LP and Blues aren't mentioned as leaders in SQ. Why is that?

Another thing, *please tell us the product line and model numbers of Epsilon equipment you have used and/or auditioned.* YOU make alot of "far fetched claims" yourself and I want to know about your real-world experience with Epsilon.


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Since when do my EARS need an advanced engineering degree to tell the difference between what sounds like ass or roses?
> 
> My 15+ year experience using everything under the sun is enough experience.
> 
> Not to mention, you are on here hyping a company you work for (credibility already questioned) for lines that have had questionable product for years and haven't been known for true SQ for over a decade.
> 
> Then you want to bring up the whole new technology arguement. So if technology is the only aspect to true SQ then why do you guys have numerous different amp lines with one that is suppose to sound better than the other? According to your arguement, you must put old technology in the lower lines and new technology in your so called "high end" (hilarious) power class. Are you kidding me? New technology is not what makes an amp sound good buddy. Topology, location of components, knowledge of the engineer, companys target market, budget, etc. all have something to do with what a company releases. We all know Epsilon doesn't make a true SQ product. Maybe they make a few amps with clean power.....that's it.....leaving ALOT TO BE DESIRED. Where is the fidelity? Your claims are pretty far fetched for a company with a ****ty reputation for SQ.


Who said anything about advanced engineering? Not me. I do not have a degree. So defensive... 

First of all, I do not HYPE my products. I just found out about this thread and got a private email asking me to divulge some answers. Anybody who has met me or conversed with me knows that I am truly non-biased, event though i work for a manufacturer. I know you do not know what non-biasy is, but it is a good thing. I frequently compliment other brands. And this might blow your mind - I have friends at many manufacturers. So, if you think I came on here to brag, do what you have already been asked to do - LEAVE! You see bud, I am not like a lot of silent manufacturers. They are probably smarted for keeping their mouths shut, but I shoot from the hip. I simply do not care if you like out products and hope that you will never own any. This thread was about new PPI amp series. Not some cynical punk insulting products that are not even in existence yet and bragging about old product that are also not longer in existence.

Ok, now you are really on crack. You seem to extrapolate a bunch of information that was never said. Starting to see a trend here.. LOL Well, arguing with you about SQ, or anything for that matter is now becoming very boring because I can see that you are not teachable by any means over your own experimenting. That's fine. Let's have some more fun. I want you to take my money! Yup, all you have to do is put up your amp, any one you want, against my piece of **** Reference amp in a 3rd party test. And here is the best part... You can pick the testing parameters and name the rules. Fair enough hot shot? We will both send money to the tester that we agree upon. You will send them $250 and just for fun, I will send them $500. Now, don't be a ***** and flake out. You can double your money for sure since you already know that we do not make any SQ products. Surely you cannot argue with yourself on this. 

Bring it on Jimmy!!!


----------



## rommelrommel

Grizz, I have to say that I like the phantom amplifiers, nice to see some good power at 4 ohm in a compact amp. They are getting a serious look from me right now, I just need to decide how little power I can live with on my sub channel lol. Trying to go compact and stealthy is hard :/


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Since when do my EARS need an advanced engineering degree to tell the difference between what sounds like ass or roses?
> 
> My 15+ year experience using everything under the sun is enough experience.
> 
> Not to mention, you are on here hyping a company you work for (credibility already questioned) for lines that have had questionable product for years and haven't been known for true SQ for over a decade.
> 
> Then you want to bring up the whole new technology arguement. So if technology is the only aspect to true SQ then why do you guys have numerous different amp lines with one that is suppose to sound better than the other? According to your arguement, you must put old technology in the lower lines and new technology in your so called "high end" (hilarious) power class. Are you kidding me? New technology is not what makes an amp sound good buddy. Topology, location of components, knowledge of the engineer, companys target market, budget, etc. all have something to do with what a company releases. We all know Epsilon doesn't make a true SQ product. Maybe they make a few amps with clean power.....that's it.....leaving ALOT TO BE DESIRED. Where is the fidelity? Your claims are pretty far fetched for a company with a ****ty reputation for SQ.


My apologies, I forgot to answer your questions about all of our series of amps, and why there are so many...

*Picasso is an entry level amplifier - gotta have an entry level series...
*Stealth is a mini/stackable series that is still Class A/B for fullrange - so it is necessary and does very well for us
*Rubicon is a mid level amp that is mid sized and is Soundstream Blue - also does very well
*Tarantula is the series that helped to bring Soundstream back to what it is today. Tarantula can never go away - it will only evolve...
*We thought we introduced a phenomenal SQ amp. But after you take my $500, I might have to reconsider... NOT!!! lol
*XXX is the 16V competition amps - gotta have them too.

So you see, they all have a purpose. Int his industry, we cannot be cynical and need to address what the market asks for. We could drop a series or two but if they all sell well, why would we throw away that income. More importantly, they all hit different price points. We can hit just about every price point there is. if it needs to be even less money, they can buy Power Acoustik...


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Direct quote from Grizz Archer; "Team JBL and Zapco own the SQ arena as far as I have seen. I would glady put up a ref amp in a 3rd party contest between us 3 brands. It would interesting to see the differences and I think the results would surprise alot of people, especially the "old school 15-20 years old amps are better" guys... I love contests! No childish threats, just for fun and learning for all of us... "
> 
> Pretty far fetched claim there....


Again, what is the claim? I am willing to do a contest for fun and education. I am claiming nothing. We could come in last or first. Who knows? Hence the whole idea. I am not calling them out, which is the way you took it. Wrong again...


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> How about a better SOUNDING preamp section with some fidelity? Maybe some "lively-ness". There is alot to be desired in that arena.


You're f'n kidding, right? HP, LP, BP, SS, Hawkins, and more, and at less than .02%thd at rated power, and you want better sounding?! "Lively-ness"?!?! So you want us to ruin the amp with an EQ like SRS, BBE or something like that?! ARE YOU FLIPPING INSANE?!?!

Alot to be desired? Ok. Like what? Tell me Einstein! I wanna learn from you. I'm humble. Teach me...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz, you're wasting your time on that guy. He is just regurgitating a bunch of crap that he has heard over the years. He has his LP/Blues blinders on and won't hear of anything different or new being comparable or heaven forbid...better. I would be surprised if he has ever tried any of your products and I would be even more astonished if he takes you up on your challenge. 
Grizz, I know you won't let one idiot taint your whole view of the people who frequent this board. 99% are very open-minded about new products and want to learn. Obviously, the pefect amp, sub, component, etc hasn't been built yet because so many engineers still have jobs!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I really tried to avoid this thread because it was already turning into all the other ones. More ignorant people saying all epsilon products are the same, new stuff cant be as good as the old, because they own entry level brands...they cant make anything of higher quality.... JUST DUMB!
> 
> Jimmy.....go put on your helmet and loose your password and login info to this forum!!! You have said some of the absolute dumbest things I have ever read (unfortunately for the forum, its not limited to this thread). I know everyone else wants to say it but have not so I will. GFY!!!!!
> 
> Grizz.....So glad to see you back and shedding light on the new stuff..... I have a ton of questions for you and will address some of them here since some other people might want to know the answers as well......
> About the ss 3way set... Having owned the ppi set, it sounds like you expanded on a few things (I personaly found lacking for my use anyway). Would you say the midbass is a little beefier then the ppi? I found that the biggest thing for me with that set was that they midbass just couldnt take a great deal of power and dish out the lows with some real authority. Now when I say that, I dont mean they couldnt play low because they really could. They just couldnt do it very loud. The midrange: I am so glad they are the same. Those are some of the best sounding midranges I have ever used (at any size or price) and found them to be about as easy as possible to install. The tweets on the ppi set I found to be pretty nice so I am curious to hear the ss set. The xover was really nice but the terminals on them were kind of a pita? Are those changed at all? Were there more tweeter mounting options included in the new set and will there be a little more detailed manual with the set (install) I was very surprised by this with the ppi set? Overall for the money I dont think your going to find a better sounding 3way so I am curious as to the price point on the ss set too? (PS. I just sold my comps so I am shoppin for a new set
> On to the amps....... Well I am intrigued by the new class d's? I am also shopping for new amps  I prefer super powerfull 2channel amps and run a few of them!
> What is the base for the nav? (garmin, tomtom,etc??) my excelon is getting a little old and I might be interested in trying out the new ppi double din depending on the release dates, nav, and a few other things....
> 
> Kelvin; I have that HRU. and I would put it head to head against any amp on the market, good call! It replaced all mcintosh and I would take it over the mcintosh all day long! Also would take the ss ref amps over the mcintosh as well! I LOVE THOSE AMPS, and because of them I am willing and interested to try anything of that level from epsilon (just using mcintosh as a high level comparison)


I like it! You shoot from the hip too. Why can't people just be honest and have the desires to learn and have fun conversations? I always thought that is what a forum is all about. 

Anyway, regarding the Midbass - The motor, coil and cone are the same. The suspension is different. I tried a different spider on the SS verision and it does make a difference. Better? Not necessarily, just depends on the listener. But I will say this, the SS does "appear" to have more midbass automatically since the overall set is more subdued than the PPI.

Midrange - Identical unless you are prejudice against blue or copper. lol

Tweeter - The tweeter is radically different. Like I tell alot of people, if you liked the old German made Mb Quart and the brightness of the set, PPI is for you. Or if you are a bit older and starting to lose a bit of your hearing, PPI is a good choice. I used to hate metal diaphragm tweeters, but not I find that a good one doe snot hurt my ears as much. The SS at +4dB sound less loud than the PPI. And it can be tuned down to -4dB, so overall, a more flat, subdued, mellow style of components... There are not more tweeter mounting options. This is going to sound rude, but true... Anybody that is going to buy these gems is going to do a custom install. If you need an eyeball mount, then you did not install it right the first time. There is no substitute for proper auditioning and pre-testing. I can add the other goodies if enough people ask for it...

Xover - Different. Same basic idea, but since the SS is not available in 2-way, I used that real estate to add the 5-way tweeter attenuation...

Prices MRSP - PPI $499.95, SS $549.95


----------



## trojan fan

jimmy2345 said:


> Why don't you tell the whole story flip flopper??
> 
> No digital processing.
> 
> He has a 4 band preamp with all settings set flat.


Please Jimmy, tell us the story


----------



## trojan fan

jimmy2345 said:


> How about a better SOUNDING preamp section with some fidelity? Maybe some "lively-ness". There is alot to be desired in that arena.


Jimmy, sound quality is subjective, I' am not trying to be rude, but maybe you're tone deaf, I know, I could be way off


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I really tried to avoid this thread because it was already turning into all the other ones. More ignorant people saying all epsilon products are the same, new stuff cant be as good as the old, because they own entry level brands...they cant make anything of higher quality.... JUST DUMB!
> 
> Jimmy.....go put on your helmet and loose your password and login info to this forum!!! You have said some of the absolute dumbest things I have ever read (unfortunately for the forum, its not limited to this thread). I know everyone else wants to say it but have not so I will. GFY!!!!!
> 
> Grizz.....So glad to see you back and shedding light on the new stuff..... I have a ton of questions for you and will address some of them here since some other people might want to know the answers as well......
> About the ss 3way set... Having owned the ppi set, it sounds like you expanded on a few things (I personaly found lacking for my use anyway). Would you say the midbass is a little beefier then the ppi? I found that the biggest thing for me with that set was that they midbass just couldnt take a great deal of power and dish out the lows with some real authority. Now when I say that, I dont mean they couldnt play low because they really could. They just couldnt do it very loud. The midrange: I am so glad they are the same. Those are some of the best sounding midranges I have ever used (at any size or price) and found them to be about as easy as possible to install. The tweets on the ppi set I found to be pretty nice so I am curious to hear the ss set. The xover was really nice but the terminals on them were kind of a pita? Are those changed at all? Were there more tweeter mounting options included in the new set and will there be a little more detailed manual with the set (install) I was very surprised by this with the ppi set? Overall for the money I dont think your going to find a better sounding 3way so I am curious as to the price point on the ss set too? (PS. I just sold my comps so I am shoppin for a new set
> On to the amps....... Well I am intrigued by the new class d's? I am also shopping for new amps  I prefer super powerfull 2channel amps and run a few of them!
> What is the base for the nav? (garmin, tomtom,etc??) my excelon is getting a little old and I might be interested in trying out the new ppi double din depending on the release dates, nav, and a few other things....
> 
> Kelvin; I have that HRU. and I would put it head to head against any amp on the market, good call! It replaced all mcintosh and I would take it over the mcintosh all day long! Also would take the ss ref amps over the mcintosh as well! I LOVE THOSE AMPS, and because of them I am willing and interested to try anything of that level from epsilon (just using mcintosh as a high level comparison)


Oops, I was not down with you yet...

Navigation - Hell no buddy. We use only Navteq maps. You gotta audition the difference. The new INGENIX radios sport 12million POI, and the fastest processing that I know of, but do not quote me on that. I have never testing anything as fast. It will tell be to make a u-turn before I finish even blowing past my turnspot. There are now sub screens that change as you get closer to the next command. Ignore me and go find something with Navteq and you'll dig it! I have mine on at all times. The speedometer is dead on accurate and I need that since I run tires 10" bigger than stock. Several different accent for the English language. The Urban lady rules and is by favorite! Everybody loves her. Multi language and upgradable. Geez, I just realized that I probably sound really excited about a video product. I am still an audio guy, but I do love the navigation. I have tried to screw it up and still cannot do it. Great for boats and off road as well...

HRU - you liked them better than you MacIntosh? I never got to hear Mac in an elite install, but that is great to hear. You like the Refs too? But they are not even an SQ amp! Sorry, but I think that is funny as hell! SO what you're saying is that even though all of our amps are the same and not for SQ that they are pretty decent, huh? Wow, then the MacIntosh must have sucked! Oh man, I am just killing myself over here laughing my ass off while everybody thinks I am going nuts in my office.


----------



## LinearPower

jimmy2345 said:


> Why don't you tell the whole story flip flopper??
> 
> No digital processing.
> 
> He has a 4 band preamp with all settings set flat.



WE use NO digital processing in ANY of the vehicles, matter of fact the two out of the 5 that won trophies(8 awards total) and that took World Championship Titles did NOT have anything but a radio, no EQ or external electronic crossover. The other 3 used the Linear Power PA-2 and XO-3, but still no DTA or any additional processing, and the EQ section of the PA-2 was left flat on all 3 systems. All processing capabilities if included in the radio was left OFF, and we proudly demostrate that publicly to any person that sits in any of our vehicles. If someone would like to spend the time to investigate mine or any of the vehicles I am more than happy to tell them to go at it.

Anyone that knows me, KNOWS I never have hid anything in any of my vehicles PERIOD! (over 25 years of building demo and contest vehicles) I don't cheat nor would I help or support anyone in our group that does cheat. I had a manufacturer that I did work for tell me that if I needed to use another speaker product to make their product sound better I could use it, and they were manufacturing speakers. I would not do it, if I build a vehicle to demostrate a product line, IT will be a demo of THAT product.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, you're wasting your time on that guy. He is just regurgitating a bunch of crap that he has heard over the years. He has his LP/Blues blinders on and won't hear of anything different or new being comparable or heaven forbid...better. I would be surprised if he has ever tried any of your products and I would be even more astonished if he takes you up on your challenge.
> Grizz, I know you won't let one idiot taint your whole view of the people who frequent this board. 99% are very open-minded about new products and want to learn. Obviously, the pefect amp, sub, component, etc hasn't been built yet because so many engineers still have jobs!


I know buddy, I know. Thanx. But hey, I still want forums to be fun. you know me, I do not attack anybody or any brand. Most of us are all friends, But hey, he put the gun to his own head. I love to hear people's opinions. But this guy is so far out there that I couldn't resist. Now that you mention it though, I do feel kind of like I beat up a handicap person. I'm sorry...

NOT! lol


----------



## Mike Flanagan

I dont see anything wrong with being biased. If no one was biased, we wouldnt be having this stimulating conversation!

As for as SQ goes most know what side I fall on. No need to push that issue. I dont want to have a pissing contest over my accomplishments either. Anyone can go look that up. I have been in this industry a LONG time and love car audio. I do have some formal education on the subject but it really doesnt make me better than anyone else(10 dollars in the paper that my diplomas are on will get me a Big Mac Combo at Mcdonalds). I feel i learned the most at the School of Hard Knox anyway.

All that to say this, Grizz Ive sold, installed and competed with Precision Power products every since they used to make the Hoopers Amps for a local chain in Mississippi. Love the stuff. we actually were having a conversation about what amp we would have if Linear wasnt around and PPI came up quite a bit. But most of us who have Linear Power are very "biased" toward our amps, just as I would expect you to be of PPI. So in pointing your finger at jimmy you yourself are guilty of the same thing hes doing. So to tell him to get off this forum you would have to excuse yourself from this forum. 

Now as for your challenge to jimmy, does that go for anyone? Although I think that it would be difficult to get an "unbiased" third party, and I dont believe in throwing away good money on a bet(mainly cause I dont have any to spare) it would be fun to put up the final revision of the LP2250 Linear Power Amp (oh yea forgot to tell you, Linear is back in business along with Blues) against your Reference series amps. The only thing is I dont think youd like the rules. Current draw vs. wattage output comparison, Bandwidth, Channel Separation, Dampening, Footprint, noisefloor, Heat Radiation, and all at 4ohms. All things that can be measured. 

Sorry now Im getting into the pissing match! But one more thing, Car Audio Magazine used a Linear Power 1501 as their reference amp when doing tests on All the amps they tested(This includes PPI)! So I guess that makes them biased too!


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> By the way, I did notice that LP and Blues aren't mentioned as leaders in SQ. Why is that?


By who? Grizz? Neither are Hertz, HAT, Genesis, etc. This guy is lost in the wind and floating further away.


----------



## trojan fan

rexroadj said:


> Jimmy.....go put on your helmet and loose your password and login info to this forum!!! You have said some of the absolute dumbest things I have ever read (unfortunately for the forum, its not limited to this thread). I know everyone else wants to say it but have not so I will. GFY!!!!!)





Jimmy, it seems to me that OP are in agreement. Try practicing what you preach. "more reading and less posting"... have a good day


----------



## Grizz Archer

LinearPower said:


> WE use NO digital processing in ANY of the vehicles, matter of fact the two out of the 5 that won trophies(8 awards) and that took World Championship Titles did NOT have anything but a radio, no EQ or external electronic crossover. The other 3 used the Linear Power PA-2 and XO-3, but still no DTA or any additional processing, and the EQ section of the PA-2 was left flat on all 3 systems. All processing capabilities if included in the radio was left OFF, and we proudly demostrate that publicly to any person that sits in any of our vehicles. If someone would like to spend the time to investigate mine or any of the vehicles I am more than happy to tell them to go at it.
> 
> Anyone that knows me, KNOWS I never have hid anything in any of my vehicles PERIOD! (over 25 years of building demo and contest vehicles) I don't cheat nor would I help or support anyone in our group that does cheat. I had a manufacturer that I did work for tell me that if I needed to use another speaker product to make their product sound better I could use it, and they were manufacturing speakers. I would not do it, if I build a vehicle to demostrate a product line, IT will be a demo of THAT product.


No that is cool! I totally respect that. I actually built a demo vehicle for LP 21 years ago when I worked for Sounds By Dave in Chico. The car was displayed at Autorama in Sacramento.

But I have to ask. What is the problem with using an EQ? An EQ will shape the sound but it surely doe not make an amplifier sound better, remove any coloration or reduce distortion. You guy should build a badass ride that is allowed to use equalization. Hell, every theater, cinema, stadium, hall or any building where music is played requires equalization to repair the imperfect acoustic node and antinodes int he vehicle. It would not say anything bad about LP as LP left it's mark. And EQs are NOT cheating. You cannot EQ a piece of crap speaker and amplifier and make it sound good. It will only change the amplitude of certain frequencies so that you a modified tonal balance of crap. lol Go for it man!

LP - good to hear from you!


----------



## fatman406

Aruguing with this jimmy guy is like arguing with a bose fan


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, I know you won't let one idiot taint your whole view of the people who frequent this board. 99% are very open-minded about new products and want to learn.


Of course...that's because 90% of the people on this forum are never happy with their current equipment. They jump on the bandwagon of the current forum boners and then sell when the boner goes limp three months later. Maybe if you people would BUY QUALITY SQ product first, and what actually sounds good to your ears, then maybe you would see my point of view. 

I have used close to it all. I know what makes me smile through research and testing.....I could care less what you think. For gods sake, actions speak louder than words and when you all swap equipment every three months it shows how much you really liked that equipment you were pushing on others a few months ago. I would bet my house no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, is going to be talking about running any EPSILON product because of it's outstanding SQ when these new products are released. It's the same old chinese junk.


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> Who said anything about advanced engineering? Not me. I do not have a degree. So defensive...
> 
> First of all, I do not HYPE my products. I just found out about this thread and got a private email asking me to divulge some answers. Anybody who has met me or conversed with me knows that I am truly non-biased, event though i work for a manufacturer. I know you do not know what non-biasy is, but it is a good thing. I frequently compliment other brands. And this might blow your mind - I have friends at many manufacturers. So, if you think I came on here to brag, do what you have already been asked to do - LEAVE! You see bud, I am not like a lot of silent manufacturers. They are probably smarted for keeping their mouths shut, but I shoot from the hip. I simply do not care if you like out products and hope that you will never own any. This thread was about new PPI amp series. Not some cynical punk insulting products that are not even in existence yet and bragging about old product that are also not longer in existence.
> 
> Ok, now you are really on crack. You seem to extrapolate a bunch of information that was never said. Starting to see a trend here.. LOL Well, arguing with you about SQ, or anything for that matter is now becoming very boring because I can see that you are not teachable by any means over your own experimenting. That's fine. Let's have some more fun. I want you to take my money! Yup, all you have to do is put up your amp, any one you want, against my piece of **** Reference amp in a 3rd party test. And here is the best part... You can pick the testing parameters and name the rules. Fair enough hot shot? We will both send money to the tester that we agree upon. You will send them $250 and just for fun, I will send them $500. Now, don't be a ***** and flake out. You can double your money for sure since you already know that we do not make any SQ products. Surely you cannot argue with yourself on this.
> 
> Bring it on Jimmy!!!




What ever happened to your claim that new technology just sounds better?? Hilarious. If that were the case, how do you have so many lines? Shouldn't they all sound the same with new technology? Hilarious. What a joke. Now you have nothing to say huh.


----------



## LinearPower

Grizz Archer said:


> No that is cool! I totally respect that. I actually built a demo vehicle for LP 21 years ago when I worked for Sounds By Dave in Chico. The car was displayed at Autorama in Sacramento.
> 
> But I have to ask. What is the problem with using an EQ? An EQ will shape the sound but it surely doe not make an amplifier sound better, remove any coloration or reduce distortion. You guy should build a badass ride that is allowed to use equalization. Hell, every theater, cinema, stadium, hall or any building where music is played requires equalization to repair the imperfect acoustic node and antinodes int he vehicle. It would not say anything bad about LP as LP left it's mark. And EQs are NOT cheating. You cannot EQ a piece of crap speaker and amplifier and make it sound good. It will only change the amplitude of certain frequencies so that you a modified tonal balance of crap. lol Go for it man!
> 
> LP - good to hear from you!


We actually don't need it, we included the EQ in several of the vehicles and we still leave them flat even when going thru the contests, not to say there would not be a system that might benefit from the EQ sometimes, but out of these 5 vehicles as well as my own, we really don't need the EQ part. The EQ on the radio on mine and the two World Championship vehicles were and are set flat also.

I just didn't like the remark made by another post that we had something hidden in the dash to process the sound whether it be DTA or EQ or what. Anyone that knows me, or my work over the years knows hidding and cheating is NOT part of my work.

Glad to know you know Jerry Hubbard, he was a wonderful guy to work with. I have many good memories of our times at Richmond Hill Corp.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Mike Flanagan said:


> I dont see anything wrong with being biased. If no one was biased, we wouldnt be having this stimulating conversation!
> 
> As for as SQ goes most know what side I fall on. No need to push that issue. I dont want to have a pissing contest over my accomplishments either. Anyone can go look that up. I have been in this industry a LONG time and love car audio. I do have some formal education on the subject but it really doesnt make me better than anyone else(10 dollars in the paper that my diplomas are on will get me a Big Mac Combo at McCdonalds). I feel i learned the most at the School of Hard Knox anyway.
> 
> All that to say this, Grizz Ive sold, installed and competed with Precision Power products every since they used to make the Hoopers Amps for a local chain in Mississippi. Love the stuff. we actually were having a conversation about what amp we would have if Linear wasnt around and PPI came up quite a bit. But most of us who have Linear Power are very "biased" toward our amps, just as I would expect you to be of PPI. So in pointing your finger at jimmy you yourself are guilty of the same thing hes doing. So to tell him to get off this forum you would have to excuse yourself from this forum.
> 
> Now as for your challenge to jimmy, does that go for anyone? Although I think that it would be difficult to get an "unbiased" third party, and I dont believe in throwing away good money on a bet(mainly cause I dont have any to spare) it would be fun to put up the final revision of the LP2250 Linear Power Amp (oh yea forgot to tell you, Linear is back in business along with Blues) against your Reference series amps. The only thing is I dont think youd like the rules. Current draw vs. wattage output comparison, Bandwidth, Channel Separation, Dampening, Footprint, noisefloor, Heat Radiation, and all at 4ohms. All things that can be measured. Just to warn you though, I kinda have an upper hand in this though because we repair your amps quite often at TIPS.
> 
> Sorry now Im getting into the pissing match! But one more thing, Car Audio Magazine used a Linear Power 5002 for many years as their reference amp when doing tests on All the amps they tested(This includes PPI)! So I guess that makes them biased too!


You are right man. But ya know what, I like being non biased. It keeps me teachable. I have my own opinions on what I think we make better than other brands, and vice versa. But I keep those thoughts to myself. As a general rule. I like to be open minded. Biasy is fine, but being so close minded only ruins the chance of ever learning again...

As for Jimmy, there are plenty of people with attitudes that do not belong. I booted two people of my team for having attitudes. I am NOT like Jimmy. I am NOT biased, never have been... I like alot of stuff on the market. The fact is that there are alot of good products out there. I like to think that we are one of the companies that makes some of these products, but there are several other great companies too. LP is certainly one of them. 

If you would like to find somebody that we can agree on, of course I will be interested. The rules are more than fine with me. But unlike you, I do not expect to win. Nor do I expect to lose. I donot expect anything. The "bet" for Jimmy was to kind of be a dickhead and a bit aggressive. I am allowed as a member just like anybody else, right? lol Anyway, I want to know where we compare. I do not need to know what an enthusiast says, because at that point, nothing is factual. You may pick out 20 brands and we may come in last. Maybe not. Again, this is a humble quest for knowledge on my part. 

You do not need to try to impress with me LP being the reference amp. I knew this and was impressed. Understand this, I will never be biased to LP or towards any of my brands. I just am not a biased person. It really screws things up. For example What is your favorite food? What is your favorite brad of car? Ok,no go buy that "Nissan" and eat "Mexican" food everyday for the rest of your life... How much would that suck? I want me Jeep and my Mazda. I love BBQing, but Sushi rocks and Mexican is a long time favorite. But Italian is always cools and I have a disgusting perversion for chillidogs. I am not biased against anything. Clear?

Now, if you want to do a comparison between some amps, get ahold of Zapco and JBL. I'm in. They do not have anything to prove, so they will surely be in, I would think. Line it all up and then a person from each company can be invited to a conference call to make all the agreements. As I said, I agree to the rules above, and only have one addendum. No cars! The test obviously requires listening to the products on non-EQed studio monitors...

This will be a cool comparison and educational for those to want to learn = ME!!!

You can reach me at [email protected] anytime.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Mike Flanagan said:


> I dont see anything wrong with being biased. If no one was biased, we wouldnt be having this stimulating conversation!
> 
> As for as SQ goes most know what side I fall on. No need to push that issue. I dont want to have a pissing contest over my accomplishments either. Anyone can go look that up. I have been in this industry a LONG time and love car audio. I do have some formal education on the subject but it really doesnt make me better than anyone else(10 dollars in the paper that my diplomas are on will get me a Big Mac Combo at Mcdonalds). I feel i learned the most at the School of Hard Knox anyway.
> 
> All that to say this, Grizz Ive sold, installed and competed with Precision Power products every since they used to make the Hoopers Amps for a local chain in Mississippi. Love the stuff. we actually were having a conversation about what amp we would have if Linear wasnt around and PPI came up quite a bit. But most of us who have Linear Power are very "biased" toward our amps, just as I would expect you to be of PPI. So in pointing your finger at jimmy you yourself are guilty of the same thing hes doing. So to tell him to get off this forum you would have to excuse yourself from this forum.
> 
> Now as for your challenge to jimmy, does that go for anyone? Although I think that it would be difficult to get an "unbiased" third party, and I dont believe in throwing away good money on a bet(mainly cause I dont have any to spare) it would be fun to put up the final revision of the LP2250 Linear Power Amp (oh yea forgot to tell you, Linear is back in business along with Blues) against your Reference series amps. The only thing is I dont think youd like the rules. Current draw vs. wattage output comparison, Bandwidth, Channel Separation, Dampening, Footprint, noisefloor, Heat Radiation, and all at 4ohms. All things that can be measured.
> 
> Sorry now Im getting into the pissing match! But one more thing, Car Audio Magazine used a Linear Power 1501 as their reference amp when doing tests on All the amps they tested(This includes PPI)! So I guess that makes them biased too!


BTW man, it is not a pissing match except for Jimmy. We were all just talking about new series of products. I do not think you are here to talk **** and start pissing on everybody, so don't. I'm not either. Just having fun man...


----------



## trojan fan

jimmy2345 said:


> Of course...that's because 90% of the people on this forum are never happy with their current equipment. They jump on the bandwagon of the current forum boners and then sell when the boner goes limp three months later. Maybe if you people would BUY QUALITY SQ product first, and what actually sounds good to your ears, then maybe you would see my point of view.
> 
> I have used close to it all. I know what makes me smile through research and testing.....I could care less what you think. For gods sake, actions speak louder than words and when you all swap equipment every three months it shows how much you really liked that equipment you were pushing on others a few months ago. I would bet my house no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, is going to be talking about running any EPSILON product because of it's outstanding SQ when these new products are released. It's the same old chinese junk.





Jimmy , when I read this post. it sounded like your blood pressure was boiling. Not everyone on this site is a car audio guru, like yourself, or reviewed, and owned as much equipment. Please go easy on them... try to have a good day


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> I just am not a biased person. It really screws things up. For example What is your favorite food? What is your favorite brad of car? Ok,no go buy that "Nissan" and eat "Mexican" food everyday for the rest of your life... How much would that suck? I want me Jeep and my Mazda. I love BBQing, but Sushi rocks and Mexican is a long time favorite. But Italian is always cools and I have a disgusting perversion for chillidogs. I am not biased against anything. Clear?
> ...
> 
> 
> You can reach me at [email protected] anytime.


Your analogy doesn't make sense in this case and shows how lost you are. Are you trying to tell me your ears have a different "taste" in sound everyday just as your tongue does? No way buddy. Not to mention, no one here is biased. I have owned and listened to just about every product to hit the market in the past 15+ years and have compared one against the other. Changing my reference amps many times, and none have compared to Linear Power. That is not being biased. This is a case of why in the hell would I want to run amp A when I know amp B blows it away in so many SQ aspects. 

FYI - I am not done. I still buy amps to this day to compare them against my reference amps. I do the same in my home. It will never end. When I find a manufacturer that beats out LP then you will no. Judging from the market selection today, it won't happen any time soon and EPSILON isn't going to be the one to do it.


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Of course...that's because 90% of the people on this forum are never happy with their current equipment. They jump on the bandwagon of the current forum boners and then sell when the boner goes limp three months later. Maybe if you people would BUY QUALITY SQ product first, and what actually sounds good to your ears, then maybe you would see my point of view.
> 
> I have used close to it all. I know what makes me smile through research and testing.....I could care less what you think. For gods sake, actions speak louder than words and when you all swap equipment every three months it shows how much you really liked that equipment you were pushing on others a few months ago. I would bet my house no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, is going to be talking about running any EPSILON product because of it's outstanding SQ when these new products are released. It's the same old chinese junk.


Well Jimmy, you do brighten my day. An enthusiast like to play around with different products and techniques, hence the term enthusiast. If there were only one good brand, the rest of us would all be out of business. So all of your world titles means something but the ones using Epsilon don't? Why is that? And please do not even make me go over Chinese amps again. Are you even aware that Korea makes some very fine amps? Or you just automatically think that people hand inserting boards here is way more accurate than an insertion machine? Do yourself a favor and do not answer that. 

Being proud of what you have is cool, being insulting to everything else is, well, it's just you dude.


----------



## LinearPower

jimmy2345 said:


> What ever happened to your claim that new technology just sounds better?? Hilarious. If that were the case, how do you have so many lines? Shouldn't they all sound the same with new technology? Hilarious. What a joke. Now you have nothing to say huh.


Not all technology new or old is the best, or the worst. At the same time building something cheaper is not technology it's usually all about cutting corners. 

Our new products are using new and old technologies, and very sound (no punn intended) design principles which never grow old with time. We are using techniques that most would not consider using, due to the idea of keeping it as cheap as possible, which limit them from making a superior sound quality device, not to say they do not acheive some level of SQ, but to get to the highest levels of SQ it takes higher end parts and much more careful design that all cost more money. A TIP35C/TIP36C is much more economical than a MJL21193/MJL21194, but a 21193/21194 are capable of a much higher level of SQ if used correctly, as well as, the power dissapation is much higher than a TIP device.

Examples of our SQ techniques, we share nothing between the two channels of our new amp, not even ground, it is all single point source grounded to the power supply with each channel and speaker sourcing the single point independantly, this keeps crosstalk low and channel separation high. It also keeps high current demands off the pre-amp ground plane and keeps the ground reference for pre-amp voltage stable.

We use separate op amps to process each channel, basically wasting one half of the device. Everything is equal path lengths and totally mirror images of each other. We use very expensive 3 OZ copper boards even on our small amps to reduce board losses, most manufacturers are using only 2 OZ copper on their big amps. 

There is a long list of things we are doing different to improve sound, performance, and decrease board losses and increase efficiency.


----------



## trojan fan

jimmy2345 said:


> Your analogy doesn't make sense in this case and shows how lost you are. Are you trying to tell me your ears have a different "taste" in sound everyday just as your tongue does? No way buddy. Not to mention, no one here is biased. I have owned and listened to just about every product to hit the market in the past 15+ years and have compared one against the other. Changing my reference amps many times, and none have compared to Linear Power. That is not being biased. This is a case of why in the hell would I want to run amp A when I know amp B blows it away in so many SQ aspects.
> 
> FYI - I am not done. I still buy amps to this day to compare them against my reference amps. I do the same in my home. It will never end. When I find a manufacturer that beats out LP then you will no. Judging from the market selection today, it won't happen any time soon and EPSILON isn't going to be the one to do it.





Jimmy, damm it!!!,I'am confussed, why would you buy new amps, when according to you, everything out there is "chinese junk"


----------



## Mike Flanagan

Got ya Grizz! Check your email.


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> What ever happened to your claim that new technology just sounds better?? Hilarious. If that were the case, how do you have so many lines? Shouldn't they all sound the same with new technology? Hilarious. What a joke. Now you have nothing to say huh.


Hmmm, I don't remember saying that new technology sounds better than old technology. Can you please show me where I said that? If I did day that, this is incorrect. But more than likely it is just a Jimmyism of not understanding, changing words around, etc... What I will say on that topic is that new technology CAN sound just as good as old technology and CAN even sound better. I am not saying that it always does, but it is possible otherwise there would be no new technology for the last 20+ years. The original of everything would be the last is technology did not grow and improve. How can you possibly not grasp this?

A 4 year old can look at all of out amps and see instantly that they are different. Huge amps, tiny amps, AB amp, D amps, Fullrange D amps, etc. So how in the hell do you think that they are all the same and they should all sound the same. They are all different with different technologies that are appropriate for that series of amps. LP makes different series of amps. You know why?! Cause they are smart and use different technologies. Ya know, kind of like the rest of the world. Hey got a question for you... If you got divorced 8 times, would it still all be the women's fault?


----------



## LinearPower

This thread seems to be about PPI's amps, why has the discussion gone so far away from that to begin with. I came here, because I was told I needed to to answer to or defend what or how we do things in our vehicles and what we may possibly be hiding. I have done that now, and I think everyone should be professional and let the thread revert back to the original intention of discussing the PPI amps. Pissing matches are so immature.

If more needs to be discussed on the Linear Power products or Blues speakers maybe a new thread or existing thread should be used made for them.


----------



## Grizz Archer

LinearPower said:


> We actually don't need it, we included the EQ in several of the vehicles and we still leave them flat even when going thru the contests, not to say there would not be a system that might benefit from the EQ sometimes, but out of these 5 vehicles as well as my own, we really don't need the EQ part. The EQ on the radio on mine and the two World Championship vehicles were and are set flat also.
> 
> I just didn't like the remark made by another post that we had something hidden in the dash to process the sound whether it be DTA or EQ or what. Anyone that knows me, or my work over the years knows hidding and cheating is NOT part of my work.
> 
> Glad to know you know Jerry Hubbard, he was a wonderful guy to work with. I have many good memories of our times at Richmond Hill Corp.


Regarding the cars - Very cool! I would have loved to hear them, but cause I hate an over-processed system. Will any be at SBN? Would I be allowed to hear them? You can handcuff me I Jimmy if Jimmy is there. Lol I would love to hear an elite vehicle with no processing. That's awesome!

Ahhh yes, Jerry Hubbard. He was my mentor for a few years. Lat I heard he was over at Fender. I studeid all of his white papers regarding Trisobarik loading (freaking mindblowing) and some of his best work at Altec Lansing. He taught me that no matter how much i sponge up, I will always know nothing... Great man!

In all honesty I did not know that Blues was even back. I saw some LP guys at the Tulsa finals which was cool. I have not seen a single SQ car for you guys, but I would love to. So tell me this, HONESTLY... If LP like most of us manufacturers that is friendly with everybody else and just wants to grow the industry back to a healthy state again? Or is it full of attitudes? You seem like decent guy. Jimmy is allowed his opinion, but what about the company is general? Friendly to the other manufacturers? Will you be at SBN? I'll buy ya a beer if you make it...


----------



## PPI_GUY

jimmy2345 said:


> Of course...that's because 90% of the people on this forum are never happy with their current equipment. They jump on the bandwagon of the current forum boners and then sell when the boner goes limp three months later. Maybe if you people would BUY QUALITY SQ product first, and what actually sounds good to your ears, then maybe you would see my point of view.
> 
> I have used close to it all. I know what makes me smile through research and testing.....I could care less what you think. For gods sake, actions speak louder than words and when you all swap equipment every three months it shows how much you really liked that equipment you were pushing on others a few months ago. I would bet my house no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, is going to be talking about running any EPSILON product because of it's outstanding SQ when these new products are released. It's the same old chinese junk.


Well, Jimmy I use PPi Pro Mos amps in my daily driver along with A/D/S components, a Sony XEC-700 crossover and a Rockford Fosgate PA-1. So, what SHOULD I be using in your opinion? 

By the way, my question to you still stands. What Epsilon products have you used/auditioned that allow you to make your claims of poor sound quality?


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Your analogy doesn't make sense in this case and shows how lost you are. Are you trying to tell me your ears have a different "taste" in sound everyday just as your tongue does? No way buddy. Not to mention, no one here is biased. I have owned and listened to just about every product to hit the market in the past 15+ years and have compared one against the other. Changing my reference amps many times, and none have compared to Linear Power. That is not being biased. This is a case of why in the hell would I want to run amp A when I know amp B blows it away in so many SQ aspects.
> 
> FYI - I am not done. I still buy amps to this day to compare them against my reference amps. I do the same in my home. It will never end. When I find a manufacturer that beats out LP then you will no. Judging from the market selection today, it won't happen any time soon and EPSILON isn't going to be the one to do it.


Do my ears have a different taste in sound everyday just as my tongue does. Why yes Jimmy, they do. Some days I prefer the warmer sound of some smooth jazz while other days I prefer the crisp sound of some reggae. So yes, absofreakinglutely! No one type of product, from anybody, is perfect for all applications. Guess, I am still really lost...

Glad you test other products. Good for you man. But even more glad that you can always seem to throw in that last insult about Epsilon. You;re a character. You do know that I am not the owner or amp engineer, right? No offense taken, really. But feel free to keep trying. if you are all butt hurt because everybody is on you right now, then just chill and contribute rather than come into a thread about new PPI amp series and just start throwing down insults. I've wasted a lot of time on you, but at the same time, I enjoy your thinking. It is getting old though since you seem to be a exit only guy with no entry..


----------



## PPI_GUY

All too happy to get back on topic.
Grizz, what are the primary differences between the Black Ice and PC series amps?


----------



## Grizz Archer

LinearPower said:


> Not all technology new or old is the best, or the worst. At the same time building something cheaper is not technology it's usually all about cutting corners.
> 
> Our new products are using new and old technologies, and very sound (no punn intended) design principles which never grow old with time. We are using techniques that most would not consider using, due to the idea of keeping it as cheap as possible, which limit them from making a superior sound quality device, not to say they do not acheive some level of SQ, but to get to the highest levels of SQ it takes higher end parts and much more careful design that all cost more money. A TIP35C/TIP36C is much more economical than a MJL21193/MJL21194, but a 21193/21194 are capable of a much higher level of SQ if used correctly, as well as, the power dissapation is much higher than a TIP device.
> 
> Examples of our SQ techniques, we share nothing between the two channels of our new amp, not even ground, it is all single point source grounded to the power supply with each channel and speaker sourcing the single point independantly, this keeps crosstalk low and channel separation high. It also keeps high current demands off the pre-amp ground plane and keeps the ground reference for pre-amp voltage stable.
> 
> We use separate op amps to process each channel, basically wasting one half of the device. Everything is equal path lengths and totally mirror images of each other. We use very expensive 3 OZ copper boards even on our small amps to reduce board losses, most manufacturers are using only 2 OZ copper on their big amps.
> 
> There is a long list of things we are doing different to improve sound, performance, and decrease board losses and increase efficiency.



Ok, take all this as just friendly conversation... China is not about cutting corners. For instance, if I have a board stuffed by a local worker, it may cost me 2 hours minimum for skilled labor at $20 an hours for a mid grade technician. But if I have a board stuffed by an insertion machine it may cost $3. Plus all of my parts are tested to specified tolerances of say 1%. Frequently parts are rejected before they ever get installed. Now, if we used the exact same parts, The quality would either be the same, but my insertion machine board would naturally be in better tolerance with no possibility for faulty parts during the insertion process. My labor board is a minimum of $40, probably considerably more. My insertion board is $3. That $37 grows exponentially at the dealer and retail level. But we already established that human hands are not as accurate as a computer. Don't get me wrong, if we could afford to build products in the states, I would jump all over it!

Do not say you use new technologies! Jimmy will get mad and start insulting you too! OF COURSE YOU USE NEW AND OLD TECHNOLOGIES!!! You have to, as do we, and everybody else. But that is unacceptable to some people, even though they do not know why.

The fact is that nobody is always right or wrong. Everybody comes out with a product that they either feels is the best or that fits a niche. Either way, every business in the world that survives is because they have something that is desirable to others. I respect LP and have nothing bad to say about the company or the products.

Make it a great day man...


----------



## Grizz Archer

LinearPower said:


> This thread seems to be about PPI's amps, why has the discussion gone so far away from that to begin with. I came here, because I was told I needed to to answer to or defend what or how we do things in our vehicles and what we may possibly be hiding. I have done that now, and I think everyone should be professional and let the thread revert back to the original intention of discussing the PPI amps. Pissing matches are so immature.
> 
> If more needs to be discussed on the Linear Power products or Blues speakers maybe a new thread or existing thread should be used made for them.


Exactly! I got asked to come here just like you. "We were all just chilling and talking abut new stuff. And then BAM! Jimmy happened!" Not sure if he works for you or not. One hell of an LP advocate, though pretty brash...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> All too happy to get back on topic.
> Grizz, what are the primary differences between the Black Ice and PC series amps?


The Black Ice is a mid sized and mid priced series that includes balanced inputs and and bridges the gap between Sedona and Power Class. 

The Phantom is fullrange Class D. So many of you guys wanted, let me rephrase, DEMANDED these. Tiny amps are growing in popularity now that they can actually sound really good. A lot of us have kids, sales stuff, or any kind of junk in the back. We need our space. We are a little late in the game getting to these but our first shipment will fly out the door. I happen to love the mini amps. I have never built an SQ comp car with them so I have nothing to brag about, but I think they will be a hit and MAKE MONEY...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Oops, I was not down with you yet...
> 
> Navigation - Hell no buddy. We use only Navteq maps. You gotta audition the difference. The new INGENIX radios sport 12million POI, and the fastest processing that I know of, but do not quote me on that. I have never testing anything as fast. It will tell be to make a u-turn before I finish even blowing past my turnspot. There are now sub screens that change as you get closer to the next command. Ignore me and go find something with Navteq and you'll dig it! I have mine on at all times. The speedometer is dead on accurate and I need that since I run tires 10" bigger than stock. Several different accent for the English language. The Urban lady rules and is by favorite! Everybody loves her. Multi language and upgradable. Geez, I just realized that I probably sound really excited about a video product. I am still an audio guy, but I do love the navigation. I have tried to screw it up and still cannot do it. Great for boats and off road as well...
> 
> Hmmm, Sounds good? I did a little research and could not find anything regarding ingenex? What exactly is it and what does it mean to us as consumers? Have you had a chance to tinker with the BT at all? It always seems like every company goes through some sort of echo or worse issues? It really seems pretty damn good unit and I will be very interested in getting my hands on one, I especially love the menu layout/options. I just bought a 250g portable hard drive and its as slow as can be on my kenwood unit. I assume it has more to do with the fact that the deck is a few years old now (8120) and the idea of using said storage devices were not as reasonable as they are now.
> 
> HRU - you liked them better than you MacIntosh? I never got to hear Mac in an elite install, but that is great to hear. You like the Refs too? But they are not even an SQ amp! Sorry, but I think that is funny as hell! SO what you're saying is that even though all of our amps are the same and not for SQ that they are pretty decent, huh? Wow, then the MacIntosh must have sucked! Oh man, I am just killing myself over here laughing my ass off while everybody thinks I am going nuts in my office.


Overall I would say I like the HRU over any of my previous Mcintosh units (I was a Mcintosh guy since the mid/late 90s) and had my amps well over 10yrs with out any issues (2 mc431's 1 mc404, and a bunch of smaller ones) I like the power Mcintosh just could not hold a flame to the HRU in that arena, add in the balanced lines, and the very useful xover features (although the mc404 had some great xover capability as well) and it its a no brainer for me. To be honest, if I were to do it over again I would take the Ref 4.920 over the HRU and several others. You put the 4.920, an older (any model) soundstream amp, or a Mcintosh and about a thousand other amps.... on a table and tell me I can have one amp, I am most likely taking the ref 4.920. The amount of clean and robust power that you get out of that amp is just amazing. It had unlimimited xover options (more so then the hru) and again you can use a BLT, and it just wouldnt strain. My only complaint (and one of only two reasons why I am not buying two more of them) is the length. I can fit two of them in my truck and run a whole system (and then some) but I am trying to lower my overall audio budget in my truck. I am intrigued by the Phantom 600.2  I can fit several of those! Any idea for price points and release dates? What you guys did with SS refs has made me a firm believer in what you guys can do and are trying to do. I want to give some of the new stuff a try


----------



## Mike Flanagan

Sorry guys. Didnt mean to sound like a azz! And Grizz Ill take you up on that beer(or margarita) in Daytona! Would also love to let you listen to our vehicles!


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> Do not say you use new technologies! Jimmy will get mad and start insulting you too! OF COURSE YOU USE NEW AND OLD TECHNOLOGIES!!!


Far from the case. So full of ASSumptions Mr. Director of Epsilon Marketing. I wonder what your intentions are no matter how ****ty the product.

The technology talk came from your numerous comments that insinuated new technology is just better....simple as that. Technology doesn't make up for poor amp design and inferior parts. If you don't understand that then you may want to stay at that MARKETING desk of yours.

Let's see how many of your chinese machine made amps are still in use 5-10 years from now. It's not only the process the chinese use for assembly, it's the design, and parts choice. Your products aren't meant to last long. Hence the reason for a new amp line every year. You can't just make something that is outstanding and then sell that for years? 

Consumers aren't very smart and companys such as yours take advantage of that. How can there be a new and better than ever amp and speaker every year? You mean that last years amp is now no good? How can an amp from 15 years ago still sound better....dramatically better? It's because you guys cut so many corners it's ridiculous and it's all MARKETING. 

As I said before, you have a market niche; to sell as much as possible no matter the quality of sound. Don't compare yourself to people who actually care about sound. This isn't about amps / speakers...it's about the music.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> The Black Ice is a mid sized and mid priced series that includes balanced inputs and and bridges the gap between Sedona and Power Class.
> 
> The Phantom is fullrange Class D. So many of you guys wanted, let me rephrase, DEMANDED these. Tiny amps are growing in popularity now that they can actually sound really good. A lot of us have kids, sales stuff, or any kind of junk in the back. We need our space. We are a little late in the game getting to these but our first shipment will fly out the door. I happen to love the mini amps. I have never built an SQ comp car with them so I have nothing to brag about, but I think they will be a hit and MAKE MONEY...


Well, I think the JayEl XD series has really found a following with more...shall we say...'mature' car audio enthusiasts for the very reasons you mention; space savings, kids, etc. The Phantoms seem to offer similiar power levels as the XD's and hopefully will have a lower price point. 

I was also wondering what added features/advantages a consumer might see by moving up from the Black Ice to the PC line? Honestly, I think the B/I amps blow the PC series away in appearance. I could easily see the PC being completely replaced by them in the not so distant future.


----------



## trojan fan

We get it jimmy, your point is well hammered in..... hey, I think your wife is calling you. bye, bye jimmy... have a nice day


----------



## rexroadj

Also Grizz, and LP.........
I had started a thread a while back seeing if anyone thought it would be a good idea to have a section on the forum where company reps could just post a hello, maybe job title, experience, etc... nothing really more is needed. I was thinking it would be nice for people here to know what companys are represented so there can be contacts to answer questions about future as well as current and older products..... its amazing who is on here but there is no where to look and see all that is represented.... (alpine, jl, JBL, SS/PPI, LP, HAT, Haudio, etc..........) Would this be something you guys would be interested in or would it open the flood gates to much for you guys??? 
Sorry to thread jack, but since a few companys are represented right here I thought I would ask. I think it would be nice to have a place to go to for REAL answers on things.
Here is the link to it.....http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...tes/96143-how-about-section-company-reps.html
Again sorry to de-rail the thread!


----------



## LinearPower

Grizz Archer said:


> Regarding the cars - Very cool! I would have loved to hear them, but cause I hate an over-processed system. Will any be at SBN? Would I be allowed to hear them? You can handcuff me I Jimmy if Jimmy is there. Lol I would love to hear an elite vehicle with no processing. That's awesome!
> 
> Ahhh yes, Jerry Hubbard. He was my mentor for a few years. Lat I heard he was over at Fender. I studeid all of his white papers regarding Trisobarik loading (freaking mindblowing) and some of his best work at Altec Lansing. He taught me that no matter how much i sponge up, I will always know nothing... Great man!
> 
> In all honesty I did not know that Blues was even back. I saw some LP guys at the Tulsa finals which was cool. I have not seen a single SQ car for you guys, but I would love to. So tell me this, HONESTLY... If LP like most of us manufacturers that is friendly with everybody else and just wants to grow the industry back to a healthy state again? Or is it full of attitudes? You seem like decent guy. Jimmy is allowed his opinion, but what about the company is general? Friendly to the other manufacturers? Will you be at SBN? I'll buy ya a beer if you make it...



Yeah, the triso-bariks, so many want to talk crap about them, but they were some kick butt boxes, Jerry and I worked on those together, I designed the truck trisobarik box, as well as, the hatch back box. No one believed we could put it in a truck box behind the seat. I have one sitting here, now. Yes, Jerry is at Fender in Phoenix, I talk to him every few months.

We are trying to make the Triso's again, but I am not finished with testing yet. The parameters on the new speakers are different from the old and that is critical. THe whole design principle is that the (2) 8 inch 4 ohm drivers in series have to closely mimic the parameters of the single 10 inch 8 ohm to combine and work. Don't know how many people tried to build that enclosure with other drivers and have it fail.

As far as, being nice, and friendly, I am the way I have always been, upfront, honest and friendly, and expect all of my people to be that way. I do not like anyone representing our products to have a bad attitude, even if provoked. That has never been the way of Linear Power or Blues, and I have been associated with both companies for a very long time (Linear Power 29 + years now and I was with Blues from the original start in 1989). I actually do not know the identity of Jimmy2345, someone on another thread asked if it was Jimmy Walker, which is part of our group, and it is not. So I can't speak for Jimmy2345's opinions or actions, I see he likes the products and supposrts them which is great, but I don't approve of anyone inside or outside of our group causing bad karama, because so many others try to do the same to us. 

Anyone is welcome to listen to any of our vehicles, we have nothing to hide and want to show and let people listen to the vehicles. We have been shipping the speakers since early last summer

As far as the industry, we are designing and building all of our product in America (except the tweeter which is re-engineered to our specs in Germany, not an off the shelf tweeter, different ferro-fluid, and mass) We are marketing to the high end retailers and the sound quality minded older market, not the mass market, but we will not ignore anyone interested in the products.

We are making plans for the season and considering being at SBN but do not know if we will be there are not. CES was expensive and we are recovering from that. 

P.S. I don't drink horse piss, but a mixed drink is good, a sugar free soft drink is fine too!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Overall I would say I like the HRU over any of my previous Mcintosh units (I was a Mcintosh guy since the mid/late 90s) and had my amps well over 10yrs with out any issues (2 mc431's 1 mc404, and a bunch of smaller ones) I like the power Mcintosh just could not hold a flame to the HRU in that arena, add in the balanced lines, and the very useful xover features (although the mc404 had some great xover capability as well) and it its a no brainer for me. To be honest, if I were to do it over again I would take the Ref 4.920 over the HRU and several others. You put the 4.920, an older (any model) soundstream amp, or a Mcintosh and about a thousand other amps.... on a table and tell me I can have one amp, I am most likely taking the ref 4.920. The amount of clean and robust power that you get out of that amp is just amazing. It had unlimimited xover options (more so then the hru) and again you can use a BLT, and it just wouldnt strain. My only complaint (and one of only two reasons why I am not buying two more of them) is the length. I can fit two of them in my truck and run a whole system (and then some) but I am trying to lower my overall audio budget in my truck. I am intrigued by the Phantom 600.2  I can fit several of those! Any idea for price points and release dates? What you guys did with SS refs has made me a firm believer in what you guys can do and are trying to do. I want to give some of the new stuff a try


Ok, somebody pleas teach this dumbass howe to multi-quote of whatever it's called! 

INGENIX is the name of the new operating system that is in our new radios. They cost about twice as much but they are worth it. Power Acoustik and Farenheit use 7800mHz processors while SS and PPI use 800mHz. I will save my fingers if you download the new catalog from the site. But the features are badass. From the 8-way adjustable source level adjustment to the Apple Mac Style drag-n-drop icons to set up your desktop, to the sick built in Navteq navigation, to the artless, stealthy faceplates. A huge leap for us. 

If we ever made a TV commercial, you're my actor! Yeah the 4920 is a beast. It is for the guy where nothing matters except performance. It possibly could have been a bit shorter, but we needed that must real estate for the preamp section... I'm glad you can appreciate it! I have the first test reports for all 4 models so they should be going to production very soon if they are not already...


----------



## rexroadj

Ok, Grizz.....
I just downloaded the 2011 catalog... I now understand the whole ingenix thing! So the units have a COPPER CHASSIS  and detachable face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am really starting to like this! I love the Kenwood units and am a little hessitant to try something completely new but so far you have some features that I have been really waiting for. Alpine also has a unit coming out that seems pretty nice too (and I have hated all things alpine for the last several years!). If there is any chance at getting some first hand photo's of the dd units and the amps? 
Also I re-read your response about the 3way set from ss.....I agree about the mounting/custom fab! I had already set up my apillars to take a certain tweeter and the ppi's were a hair to small for it. Some extra "stuff" would have been handy so I didnt have to dive any deeper into the setup. Sounds like the ss would fit great! The ppi tweets were nice and not at all bright to me. I had them pretty off axis and they had excellent response. I like your description of the ss tweets and set overall. I cant say enough great things about that little midrange. If you guys sold them individually you all could probably retire  That was a serious homerun! I would buy a few sets of them if I could! My only real complaint with the set is that it was just not loud enough for my tastes (midbass only) but the sq was no joke. Very detailed set! In a quiet vehicle, and off modest power its golden! I drive a big ass truck with large tires and its loud!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Mike Flanagan said:


> Sorry guys. Didnt mean to sound like a azz! And Grizz Ill take you up on that beer(or margarita) in Daytona! Would also love to let you listen to our vehicles!


Yeah man, its on. It would be my pleasure... See ya there!


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Far from the case. So full of ASSumptions Mr. Director of Epsilon Marketing. I wonder what your intentions are no matter how ****ty the product.
> 
> The technology talk came from your numerous comments that insinuated new technology is just better....simple as that. Technology doesn't make up for poor amp design and inferior parts. If you don't understand that then you may want to stay at that MARKETING desk of yours.
> 
> Let's see how many of your chinese machine made amps are still in use 5-10 years from now. It's not only the process the chinese use for assembly, it's the design, and parts choice. Your products aren't meant to last long. Hence the reason for a new amp line every year. You can't just make something that is outstanding and then sell that for years?
> 
> Consumers aren't very smart and companys such as yours take advantage of that. How can there be a new and better than ever amp and speaker every year? You mean that last years amp is now no good? How can an amp from 15 years ago still sound better....dramatically better? It's because you guys cut so many corners it's ridiculous and it's all MARKETING.
> 
> As I said before, you have a market niche; to sell as much as possible no matter the quality of sound. Don't compare yourself to people who actually care about sound. This isn't about amps / speakers...it's about the music.


Hey buddy, great to hear from you so soon. "ASSumptions" Wow! Clever and smarter than a 5th grader! Intentions? You wonder about them? Do you ever make sense? It's simple actually. I want to work for a strong manufacturer of car audio products. That's it. Pretty simple. Ya know, I;ll bet alot of people in the industry have the same intentions. Especially since I don't see what other intentions would have anything to do 12V. 

Oh I see, so now what you never heard is being passed off as an insinuation? Seriously, you gotta do better than that. And why are to not yelling at LP for using new technology. WAIT! Let me guess! Their new technology is cooler than ours because our is not for SQ and is just ****ty in general?! Is that right? You're a piece of work! I have now talked to the president and another LP/Blues guy. Both cool guys what in the hell happened to you? I will hopefully meet them at SBN. But I feel sorry for them for having you as one of their advocates. I would much rather learn from them, since nothing you said has ever made sense. You talk about products that do not exist. You know zero about our current products. Again and again and again, your opinion can be respected and you are entitled to it, but your relentless spewage of spineless nonsense and immature attitude degraded your opinion to nothing. Nobody cares what you think. Not because you may be right or wrong, but because you just love to hear yourself talk crap about things you know nothing about. Argh! Why am I wasting more time on you?


----------



## pionkej

jimmy2345 said:


> Far from the case. So full of ASSumptions Mr. Director of Epsilon Marketing. I wonder what your intentions are no matter how ****ty the product.
> 
> The technology talk came from your numerous comments that insinuated new technology is just better....simple as that. Technology doesn't make up for poor amp design and inferior parts. If you don't understand that then you may want to stay at that MARKETING desk of yours.
> 
> Let's see how many of your chinese machine made amps are still in use 5-10 years from now. It's not only the process the chinese use for assembly, it's the design, and parts choice. Your products aren't meant to last long. Hence the reason for a new amp line every year. You can't just make something that is outstanding and then sell that for years?
> 
> Consumers aren't very smart and companys such as yours take advantage of that. How can there be a new and better than ever amp and speaker every year? You mean that last years amp is now no good? How can an amp from 15 years ago still sound better....dramatically better? It's because you guys cut so many corners it's ridiculous and it's all MARKETING.
> 
> As I said before, you have a market niche; to sell as much as possible no matter the quality of sound. Don't compare yourself to people who actually care about sound. This isn't about amps / speakers...it's about the music.


I don't have a dog in this fight, but since you are slinging mud like there is no tomorrow...do you mind telling me what *specs* make the brands you like better products?

I know that specs aren't everything and in the end, your ears are more important. But so far, you have no facts, just opinions. No comparative data, just loudmouthing. And if you think saying things like "I've tried products you only dream of" or "I have more experience in my toe than you do in your body" holds any weight here...you must be out of your mind. So as the old saying goes, "either put up, or GTFO of this thread".

BTW, Grizz, I don't have a preference for your products either way, but thanks for taking the time to come on this board and talk to the members. It is always appreciated when people who have a hand in the development of products come here and interact at a one-on-one level.


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## trojan fan

Jimmy must be on a kool aide break


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> Far from the case. So full of ASSumptions Mr. Director of Epsilon Marketing. I wonder what your intentions are no matter how ****ty the product.
> 
> The technology talk came from your numerous comments that insinuated new technology is just better....simple as that. Technology doesn't make up for poor amp design and inferior parts. If you don't understand that then you may want to stay at that MARKETING desk of yours.
> 
> Let's see how many of your chinese machine made amps are still in use 5-10 years from now. It's not only the process the chinese use for assembly, it's the design, and parts choice. Your products aren't meant to last long. Hence the reason for a new amp line every year. You can't just make something that is outstanding and then sell that for years?
> 
> Consumers aren't very smart and companys such as yours take advantage of that. How can there be a new and better than ever amp and speaker every year? You mean that last years amp is now no good? How can an amp from 15 years ago still sound better....dramatically better? It's because you guys cut so many corners it's ridiculous and it's all MARKETING.
> 
> As I said before, you have a market niche; to sell as much as possible no matter the quality of sound. Don't compare yourself to people who actually care about sound. This isn't about amps / speakers...it's about the music.


Ooops, not done with you yet. BTW I am not in marketing anymore. I have to much to do with speaker engineering as we jump into home audio and DJ/Pro. 

OK, first of all, our amplifier Engineer is American but originally European. He is not Chinese. Nice try slick. Our spec'ed parts are all high quality parts and are test for tolerance as they are inserted. Got a problem with that slick? There are a bunch of guys still running OS Soundstream and PPI products. Really, that is all you got? You need so substance badly. We add or delete new products as the market demands. I suppose that is bad too. How many companies do you know that only make old school products and nothing new. Oh ****! LP has a new revision of an amplifier. I'm sure it is killer, but are you going to insult them because they did something new, or maybe because they are doing something that US and every other company in the world does - improve? 

Consumers aren't smart?! Ya know, you a real *******! This forum is made up of consumers and enthusiast which are also consumers. I am a consumer as well. So who in the hell are you to insult this entire forum and put yourself on a pedestal? You're a tool man! 

Oh, your next one is great! "How can there be a new and better than ever amp and speaker every year? You mean that last years amp is now no good?"

Well Mr. Tool, let me tell you. Brace yourself. It is called TECHNOLOGY! it has never stopped moving since is started. Every company has a quest to move forward, get smarter and use the newest technologies. The fact that you cannot grasp this is f'ing mind blowing! Do you have Model A that you drive or are horses still perfect? Geez! What a Gumby! And I mean that with love, really...

I do not even know where to go with your last bit of words, Did you have a point or just wanted to say words with some sort of monumental closing statement? "it's about the music". Was that supposed to be profound?

The fact is that you do not know what all of this is about, I am not sure you even know what our topic is. But hey, as long as you enjoy coming in here and trying to ruin our PPI thread, I am glad you are having such a great time belittling yourself. Did you get the message from the president of LP? You know, the one about the pissing match and being immature. he has got to be laughing now because he got involved and did not even realize that it was a PPI thread. Cool guy, but he decided to leave and cordially asked people to start a new thread about LP if they desired. Classy move on his part. I would have done the same, but ummm, this is kind of where I belong since I work here? Do you grasp that concept? Do you know what a concept is? I know you cannot take a hint or a slap of reality so just exactly does somebody get through to you?

***Insert senseless comment here_______________________________


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Also Grizz, and LP.........
> I had started a thread a while back seeing if anyone thought it would be a good idea to have a section on the forum where company reps could just post a hello, maybe job title, experience, etc... nothing really more is needed. I was thinking it would be nice for people here to know what companys are represented so there can be contacts to answer questions about future as well as current and older products..... its amazing who is on here but there is no where to look and see all that is represented.... (alpine, jl, JBL, SS/PPI, LP, HAT, Haudio, etc..........) Would this be something you guys would be interested in or would it open the flood gates to much for you guys???
> Sorry to thread jack, but since a few companys are represented right here I thought I would ask. I think it would be nice to have a place to go to for REAL answers on things.
> Here is the link to it.....http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...tes/96143-how-about-section-company-reps.html
> Again sorry to de-rail the thread!


I am willing. I have many friends in the industry at different manufacturers. Always cool to meet more people. But I know that some of the manufacturer guys like to stay quiet and just read... I am always up for anything, unless it is a manufacturers basking party, but nobody does that anymore. The bashing is all done by the enthusiasts that know everything. For the most part, all the manufacturers get along. I et along with everybody. Hell I go to the MTX and Kicker parties. I get invited all the time. We're all buddies, as it should be...


----------



## Grizz Archer

LinearPower said:


> Yeah, the triso-bariks, so many want to talk crap about them, but they were some kick butt boxes, Jerry and I worked on those together, I designed the truck trisobarik box, as well as, the hatch back box. No one believed we could put it in a truck box behind the seat. I have one sitting here, now. Yes, Jerry is at Fender in Phoenix, I talk to him every few months.
> 
> We are trying to make the Triso's again, but I am not finished with testing yet. The parameters on the new speakers are different from the old and that is critical. THe whole design principle is that the (2) 8 inch 4 ohm drivers in series have to closely mimic the parameters of the single 10 inch 8 ohm to combine and work. Don't know how many people tried to build that enclosure with other drivers and have it fail.
> 
> As far as, being nice, and friendly, I am the way I have always been, upfront, honest and friendly, and expect all of my people to be that way. I do not like anyone representing our products to have a bad attitude, even if provoked. That has never been the way of Linear Power or Blues, and I have been associated with both companies for a very long time (Linear Power 29 + years now and I was with Blues from the original start in 1989). I actually do not know the identity of Jimmy2345, someone on another thread asked if it was Jimmy Walker, which is part of our group, and it is not. So I can't speak for Jimmy2345's opinions or actions, I see he likes the products and supposrts them which is great, but I don't approve of anyone inside or outside of our group causing bad karama, because so many others try to do the same to us.
> 
> Anyone is welcome to listen to any of our vehicles, we have nothing to hide and want to show and let people listen to the vehicles. We have been shipping the speakers since early last summer
> 
> As far as the industry, we are designing and building all of our product in America (except the tweeter which is re-engineered to our specs in Germany, not an off the shelf tweeter, different ferro-fluid, and mass) We are marketing to the high end retailers and the sound quality minded older market, not the mass market, but we will not ignore anyone interested in the products.
> 
> We are making plans for the season and considering being at SBN but do not know if we will be there are not. CES was expensive and we are recovering from that.
> 
> P.S. I don't drink horse piss, but a mixed drink is good, a sugar free soft drink is fine too!


My compliments on your work with the Trisobariks. Uncommonly cool! I fully get the concept and understand exactly how it works. But I also know how hard it is to reach the design goals in matching the 10 to the pair of 8s. 

Well, personally, I hope you do come to SBN. It will be a pleasure to meet you if I have not already in years past (would not surprised). Horse Piss? Me neither! No fizzy yellow wussy stuff. I like a hearty brew. May even bring some of my coffee milk stout homebrew. Anyway, I don't care what you drink, it would be nice to chat regardless...


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> Hey buddy, great to hear from you so soon. "ASSumptions" Wow! Clever and smarter than a 5th grader! Intentions? You wonder about them? Do you ever make sense? It's simple actually. I want to work for a strong manufacturer of car audio products. That's it. Pretty simple. Ya know, I;ll bet alot of people in the industry have the same intentions. Especially since I don't see what other intentions would have anything to do 12V.
> 
> Oh I see, so now what you never heard is being passed off as an insinuation? Seriously, you gotta do better than that. And why are to not yelling at LP for using new technology. WAIT! Let me guess! Their new technology is cooler than ours because our is not for SQ and is just ****ty in general?! Is that right? You're a piece of work! I have now talked to the president and another LP/Blues guy. Both cool guys what in the hell happened to you? I will hopefully meet them at SBN. But I feel sorry for them for having you as one of their advocates. I would much rather learn from them, since nothing you said has ever made sense. You talk about products that do not exist. You know zero about our current products. Again and again and again, your opinion can be respected and you are entitled to it, but your relentless spewage of spineless nonsense and immature attitude degraded your opinion to nothing. Nobody cares what you think. Not because you may be right or wrong, but because you just love to hear yourself talk crap about things you know nothing about. Argh! Why am I wasting more time on you?


You simply ignored everything I stated and spewed off a bunch of personal attacks. Now who is the immature one? Real professional. You know it's all true. Alot of us see right through your marketing tactics....simply by listening to the product your company releases.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Ok, Grizz.....
> I just downloaded the 2011 catalog... I now understand the whole ingenix thing! So the units have a COPPER CHASSIS  and detachable face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am really starting to like this! I love the Kenwood units and am a little hessitant to try something completely new but so far you have some features that I have been really waiting for. Alpine also has a unit coming out that seems pretty nice too (and I have hated all things alpine for the last several years!). If there is any chance at getting some first hand photo's of the dd units and the amps?
> Also I re-read your response about the 3way set from ss.....I agree about the mounting/custom fab! I had already set up my apillars to take a certain tweeter and the ppi's were a hair to small for it. Some extra "stuff" would have been handy so I didnt have to dive any deeper into the setup. Sounds like the ss would fit great! The ppi tweets were nice and not at all bright to me. I had them pretty off axis and they had excellent response. I like your description of the ss tweets and set overall. I cant say enough great things about that little midrange. If you guys sold them individually you all could probably retire  That was a serious homerun! I would buy a few sets of them if I could! My only real complaint with the set is that it was just not loud enough for my tastes (midbass only) but the sq was no joke. Very detailed set! In a quiet vehicle, and off modest power its golden! I drive a big ass truck with large tires and its loud!



Glad you are getting it. I cannot possibly tell it all on here. Plus then I would like an ass and I can do that efficiently already. LOL

We are making a couple of last minute software revisions, then I should get samples...

I have my PPI set mid and tweeter on the a-pilar which is damn near on the glass of my Jeep. I think Jeeps second big purpose was to make the worst sounding vehicles possible! My drivers simple mount in a whole. I was going to go back and make an enclosure for them somehow, but there is no point. I have one of the only killer sounding Jeeps in the world. I dig it! But it still would not be my choice for an SQ comp vehicle build. Can't wait to hear it with my MS-8!!!


----------



## pionkej

jimmy2345 said:


> You simply ignored everything I stated and spewed off a bunch of personal attacks. Now who is the immature one? Real professional. You know it's all true. Alot of us see right through your marketing tactics....simply by listening to the product your company releases.


Did you bother reading my request for qualifying (really qualifying) all the remarks you're making in the first place?


----------



## Grizz Archer

pionkej said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but since you are slinging mud like there is no tomorrow...do you mind telling me what *specs* make the brands you like better products?
> 
> I know that specs aren't everything and in the end, your ears are more important. But so far, you have no facts, just opinions. No comparative data, just loudmouthing. And if you think saying things like "I've tried products you only dream of" or "I have more experience in my toe than you do in your body" holds any weight here...you must be out of your mind. So as the old saying goes, "either put up, or GTFO of this thread".
> 
> BTW, Grizz, I don't have a preference for your products either way, but thanks for taking the time to come on this board and talk to the members. It is always appreciated when people who have a hand in the development of products come here and interact at a one-on-one level.


I came on her by request and I feel bad. I wanted to answer everybody's questions and hope I did not miss any. But I just could not resist answering Jimmy. And I think I did well with not calling him any name other than Slick. Had I not been an manufacturer member, I would have unleashed wildly!

Have a good one man!


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> You simply ignored everything I stated and spewed off a bunch of personal attacks. Now who is the immature one? Real professional. You know it's all true. Alot of us see right through your marketing tactics....simply by listening to the product your company releases.


I love it! So, by "us", you mean you because unless I only get every other post, your are an army of 1.

But hey, you managed to get you last sentence in again about our products. Good for you for being so consistent, event though that it the only thing you are consistent about...


----------



## jimmy2345

Grizz Archer said:


> Ooops, not done with you yet. BTW I am not in marketing anymore. I have to much to do with speaker engineering as we jump into home audio and DJ/Pro.
> 
> OK, first of all, our amplifier Engineer is American but originally European. He is not Chinese. Nice try slick. Our spec'ed parts are all high quality parts and are test for tolerance as they are inserted. Got a problem with that slick? There are a bunch of guys still running OS Soundstream and PPI products. Really, that is all you got? You need so substance badly. We add or delete new products as the market demands. I suppose that is bad too. How many companies do you know that only make old school products and nothing new. Oh ****! LP has a new revision of an amplifier. I'm sure it is killer, but are you going to insult them because they did something new, or maybe because they are doing something that US and every other company in the world does - improve?
> 
> Consumers aren't smart?! Ya know, you a real *******! This forum is made up of consumers and enthusiast which are also consumers. I am a consumer as well. So who in the hell are you to insult this entire forum and put yourself on a pedestal? You're a tool man!
> 
> Oh, your next one is great! "How can there be a new and better than ever amp and speaker every year? You mean that last years amp is now no good?"
> 
> Well Mr. Tool, let me tell you. Brace yourself. It is called TECHNOLOGY! it has never stopped moving since is started. Every company has a quest to move forward, get smarter and use the newest technologies. The fact that you cannot grasp this is f'ing mind blowing! Do you have Model A that you drive or are horses still perfect? Geez! What a Gumby! And I mean that with love, really...
> 
> I do not even know where to go with your last bit of words, Did you have a point or just wanted to say words with some sort of monumental closing statement? "it's about the music". Was that supposed to be profound?
> 
> The fact is that you do not know what all of this is about, I am not sure you even know what our topic is. But hey, as long as you enjoy coming in here and trying to ruin our PPI thread, I am glad you are having such a great time belittling yourself. Did you get the message from the president of LP? You know, the one about the pissing match and being immature. he has got to be laughing now because he got involved and did not even realize that it was a PPI thread. Cool guy, but he decided to leave and cordially asked people to start a new thread about LP if they desired. Classy move on his part. I would have done the same, but ummm, this is kind of where I belong since I work here? Do you grasp that concept? Do you know what a concept is? I know you cannot take a hint or a slap of reality so just exactly does somebody get through to you?
> 
> ***Insert senseless comment here_______________________________


You are so lost....do you want me to say it again? Show me where I stated technology is not good? I stated technology alone doesn't make an amp sound better as you claim. Go back and read because you clearly like to hear yourself speak and aren't reading the replys. It takes more than that. We have already went through this. You are going back and forth with yourself and round and round in circles. 

Any rational person can clearly see that you are a simpleton. You try to play the part of someone with knowledge, but don't quite get there.

Time lost, and lesson learned. One thing that did come out of all this though; others can see the type of people Epsilon hires and has working for them.


----------



## Grizz Archer

pionkej said:


> Did you bother reading my request for qualifying (really qualifying) all the remarks you're making in the first place?


I don't think he can read, only write. No wait! Dude we're gonna be rich! You and I are... wait for it... INVISIBLE! Hell yeah, this is going to be great! I'm going to the Sorority house first! Where are you going first? lol


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> You are so lost....do you want me to say it again? Show me where I stated technology is not good? I stated technology alone doesn't make an amp sound better as you claim. Go back and read because you clearly like to hear yourself speak and aren't reading the replys. It takes more than that. We have already went through this. You are going back and forth with yourself and round and round in circles.
> 
> Any rational person can clearly see that you are a simpleton. You try to play the part of someone with knowledge, but don't quite get there.
> 
> Time lost, and lesson learned. One thing that did come out of all this though; others can see the type of people Epsilon hires and has working for them.


Thanx Jimmy! I have no idea what you were saying, as usual, but I'm glad you think that others can tell what kind of person I am for Epsilon! I knew you could give a compliment to me. Really, thanx. But I do have to correct something. You said "lesson learned." Not true...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz, I get the feeling that this guy is here to do nothing but try and tweak you. He hasn't offered any evidence for his claims, won't reply to the numerous requests for which Epsilon products he has used and won't supply us with any of his car audio history other than a vague reference to "15+ years" of "trying just about everything available". 
He sounds like a wannabe and a self-proclaimed genius. He has already been disavowed by the very company he claims to hold in such high regard. He is a troll and a joke.
He has publicly trashed another manufacturer in a public thread which, and I may be wrong, could be (or should be ) grounds for being banned. 
****Mods, alittle help with this Jimmy2345 loser?*


----------



## starboy869

*a pair of hens eating biscuits and drinking tea. * 

Linear Power has been the fourm boner for that year or so. There's so many newer amps that ARE better than them. I have a friend who thinks my TRU c7.2T is **** cause he's got the LP boner. I know another person who hates my Alpine SPX pro cause they aren't seas. Heck I even said I swaped (I didn't) out my SPx for a set seas and he said he loved them... wtf a retard. 

Sorry... I could care less about LP. It's not the product, but the followers that made me over look them and this thread jimmy and LP themselves makes me over look them MORE.

how about jimmy you run what you run and shut your yap about these LP products. NO one in a PPI thread cares how you feel that your LP are gold.



ever notice that LP and jimmy jump in all neg. on a PPI thread? come on really... children


----------



## jimmy2345

PPI_GUY said:


> He hasn't offered any evidence for his claims, won't reply to the numerous requests for which Epsilon products he has used and won't supply us with any of his car audio history other than a vague reference to "15+ years" of "trying just about everything available".
> He sounds like a wannabe and a self-proclaimed genius.


We all know that's a dead end street. I start naming off every piece of equipment I have ever owned, my experience, my whole life story, and then all Grizz's boy toys start saying I live in a basement with my mom and don't even own a car.

Come on. You can do better than that.

How about we chalk it up to this. LP has never sold out and doesn't have a reputation for producing products inferior to what they made in the past. For some reason Orion, SS, PPI and just about every other company from the car audio hay days do. Hmmm....I wonder why. Probably because it's a fact.


----------



## rexroadj

Jimmy.....Do the WORLD a favor, stick your head in a bucket full of water and hold your breath for a VERY long time..... Now it will get a little difficult but dont give up, just keep holding that breath! There should be a light..... GO TO IT AS FAST AS YOU CAN! 
YOU ****ING REJECT! GET LOST, no one likes you, no one cares what you have to say, you dont say anything to begin with? Just go **** yourself and get it overwith. Your nothing but a useless plague. You dont know anything, you dont understand anything, and you will never be anything. Long walk-Short pier!!!!!!!!!! 
****ing tool!

Sorry, I dont hold things in as well as everyone else. It needed to be said!


----------



## jimmy2345

rexroadj said:


> Jimmy.....Do the WORLD a favor, stick your head in a bucket full of water and hold your breath for a VERY long time..... Now it will get a little difficult but dont give up, just keep holding that breath! There should be a light..... GO TO IT AS FAST AS YOU CAN!
> YOU ****ING REJECT! GET LOST, no one likes you, no one cares what you have to say, you dont say anything to begin with? Just go **** yourself and get it overwith. Your nothing but a useless plague. You dont know anything, you dont understand anything, and you will never be anything. Long walk-Short pier!!!!!!!!!!
> ****ing tool!
> 
> Sorry, I dont hold things in as well as everyone else. It needed to be said!


Ahhh... someones panties are in a bunch. I am sure your boyfriend can help you straighten them out. How many forum rules did you just break? We will let the mods decide that one.

Just because deep down you know what I say is true, and you can't fight my last comment with words because we all know the comment was true, you resort to personal attacks. Real intelligent.

This company fell off with the others and we all know it.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

Jimmy has been removed for some quality vacation time with himself.


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## bkjay

6spdcoupe said:


> Jimmy has been removed for some quality vacation time with himself.


Classic!:laugh:


----------



## PPI_GUY

6spdcoupe said:


> Jimmy has been removed for some quality vacation time with himself.


Thank you very much.
Hopefully it's a permanent ban?


----------



## 6spdcoupe

PPI_GUY said:


> Thank you very much.
> Hopefully it's a permanent ban?


Not as of yet, but I have a Really good feeling he will bring that on himself. It was for one month, although if the general consensus thinks perma ban is more favorable ..


----------



## thehatedguy

+1 for permaban


----------



## FAUEE

thehatedguy said:


> +1 for permaban


Wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if that's what happened...


----------



## trojan fan

thehatedguy said:


> +1 for permaban



X2 ..In total agreement with lifetime ban


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## subwoofery

+2 for Permaban 

Every one is entitled to their opinion, being biased? Ok I am too  but he doesn't listen, doesn't care for anything and doesn't want to learn. 
Whenever I can, I try to help people and learn from them. I haven't seen him say something like "nice install" or "that's a nice amplifier at a nice price"... All I've seen him doing is trolling. 
Tried to get some infos about what he's using in his car but he never answers and just dodges questions. 

A troll = permaban IMHO 

Kelvin


----------



## slowsedan01

+3 Permaban. Maybe he can go start his own haterade/LP fanboy forum.


----------



## LinearPower

slowsedan01 said:


> +3 Permaban. Maybe he can go start his own haterade/LP fanboy forum.


Now, don't go blame Linear Power for one person's attitude, I have no control over him as I have no idea who he is! I request that all of my guys that talk on here, that I know, to keep it civil, and never to slam dunk or speak badly of other companies, personnel, or their products. I know Jimmy2345 has been causing issues but the words said back have been pretty bad, and crude. The language needs to be cleaned up, disgust with someones actions can be handled more professionally, IMHO. Vulgar and profane langauge is not an adult way to handle anything.


----------



## subwoofery

LinearPower said:


> Now, don't go blame Linear Power for one person's attitude, I have no control over him as I have no idea who he is! I request that all of my guys that talk on here, that I know, to keep it civil, and never to slam dunk or speak badly of other companies, personnel, or their products. I know Jimmy2345 has been causing issues but the words said back have been pretty bad, and crude. The language needs to be cleaned up, disgust with someones actions can be handled more professionally, IMHO. Vulgar and profane langauge is not an adult way to handle anything.


Don't worry, I'm still planning to try your products one day  - especially the amps. 

Kelvin


----------



## newtitan

so approximately when are the source decks, primarily the 
*P-771NX*


going to be released?

also what about the reference 3ways? (the blue ones that look are similiar to the ppi 3way set released last year?


----------



## subwoofery

newtitan said:


> so approximately when are the source decks, primarily the
> *P-771NX*
> 
> 
> going to be released?
> 
> *also what about the reference 3ways? (the blue ones that look are similiar to the ppi 3way set released last year?*


^ has been explained in this thread already 

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

LinearPower said:


> Now, don't go blame Linear Power for one person's attitude, I have no control over him as I have no idea who he is! I request that all of my guys that talk on here, that I know, to keep it civil, and never to slam dunk or speak badly of other companies, personnel, or their products. I know Jimmy2345 has been causing issues but the words said back have been pretty bad, and crude. The language needs to be cleaned up, disgust with someones actions can be handled more professionally, IMHO. Vulgar and profane langauge is not an adult way to handle anything.


No worries buddy. I hold nothing against anybody. Attitudes are on a personal basis. I'm sure there is a Soundstream jerk out there too. Hopefully members to not it reflect on you, I and other manufacturers...


----------



## Grizz Archer

starboy869 said:


> *a pair of hens eating biscuits and drinking tea. *
> 
> Linear Power has been the fourm boner for that year or so. There's so many newer amps that ARE better than them. I have a friend who thinks my TRU c7.2T is **** cause he's got the LP boner. I know another person who hates my Alpine SPX pro cause they aren't seas. Heck I even said I swaped (I didn't) out my SPx for a set seas and he said he loved them... wtf a retard.
> 
> Sorry... I could care less about LP. It's not the product, but the followers that made me over look them and this thread jimmy and LP themselves makes me over look them MORE.
> 
> how about jimmy you run what you run and shut your yap about these LP products. NO one in a PPI thread cares how you feel that your LP are gold.
> 
> 
> 
> ever notice that LP and jimmy jump in all neg. on a PPI thread? come on really... children



The LP boner! That is freaking hillarious! Damn, I wonder if anybody has a Tarantula boner. Not so sure why I think that is so funny, but it is. If i was an LP guy, I would be proud of that term!


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> ... and then all Grizz's boy toys start saying I live in a basement with my mom and don't even own a car.


WTF? Am I Madonna or something? lol Funny how most of you probably do not use my products and do not even know me. By "Boy Toy", I think he meant "Random Enthusiast With Common Sense That hates Haters"...


----------



## rommelrommel

Grizz Archer said:


> The LP boner! That is freaking hillarious! Damn, I wonder if anybody has a Tarantula boner. Not so sure why I think that is so funny, but it is. If i was an LP guy, I would be proud of that term!


I think people had a pretty hard boner for the original Tarantula and DaVinci... these days people only seem to get boners over SPL.


----------



## subwoofery

I did get a boner for the Human Reign when I first saw one. lol

Kelvin


----------



## rommelrommel

Original Human Reign? Because that would be creepy. New Human Reign is understandable.


----------



## FAUEE

rommelrommel said:


> Original Human Reign? Because that would be creepy. New Human Reign is understandable.


The ones with the face on it scare me.


----------



## ChrisB

FAUEE said:


> The ones with the face on it scare me.


Yet it gives Kelvin a boner!


----------



## subwoofery

The original of course. Though, it can be scary when you open the trunk at night... 

Kelvin


----------



## starboy869

alright 

So when are these black ice ones coming to Market?


----------



## Grizz Archer

starboy869 said:


> alright
> 
> So when are these black ice ones coming to Market?


Junetember!

Not 100% sure. I am not the guy who tracks all of this, but let me dig in and see if there is an ETZ for Black Ice and Phantom...


----------



## AccordUno

Grizz, not going to start a debate but some of the Pro Audio speakers look really similar to Beyma's tweeters. 

Other than that, Hope PPI does bounce back, sure not the same company as past, but at least you are trying you damnest to get it there..


----------



## FAUEE

subwoofery said:


> The original of course. Though, it can be scary when you open the trunk at night...
> 
> Kelvin


Especially if you rig up a loudspeaker to make a screaming noise when you open the trunk.


----------



## Peter584

Is there anywhere to buy this stuff online?


----------



## rexroadj

Peter584 said:


> Is there anywhere to buy this stuff online?


Its not out yet


----------



## Grizz Archer

starboy869 said:


> alright
> 
> So when are these black ice ones coming to Market?


Well I wasn't too far off, unfortunately... The boards for the Black Ice are taking longer than expected. Would've been sooner if we did not add in the balanced lines. Plus getting the entire top to come out perfect is pretty tough since it is Lexan and no just an aluminum extrusion. The answer I got for Black Ice is Oktoberfest, but we are trying for mid Summer. The Phantom amps will finish production in about 2-3 weeks and will be here early to mid April. I suppose that is better than Junetember...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Peter584 said:


> Is there anywhere to buy this stuff online?


There is only one place that is authorized that can sell with full warranty. Online Car Stereo. There was a second place, but after 2 warnings to keep prices at map, we cut them off. However, something special is brewing that just might allow DIYMA members to purchase at amazing prices and still have full warranty! It would be for members only. ANT and I are working out the details now and it looks promising...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AccordUno said:


> Grizz, not going to start a debate but some of the Pro Audio speakers look really similar to Beyma's tweeters.
> 
> Other than that, Hope PPI does bounce back, sure not the same company as past, but at least you are trying you damnest to get it there..


If you go way back, you will see that we started Pro Audio in Power Acoustik awhile ago. And while I screamed like a little girl to not put it in Soundstream, I was soooo wrong. We sell insane amount of it. Several companies have the same bullet tweeters. In fact, without mentioning any names, we do some OEM work for other companies. Beyma is not one of them, but there are a few. I just leave it at that... We have the bullets in black for PA, silver for SS and black/copper for PPI. I have a sick black/copper Pro Audio 6.5" midbass with neo motor and even matching xovers for a PPI Pro Audio component set. But my idea was shot down. Enough people asked why we do not make a components set, or anybody for that matter, so I will get my way sometime this year... Pro Audio is HUGE so we have grown our offerings to be the biggest in the industry. Not of interest to the SQ guys, but the SPL guys and open show guys eat it up.


----------



## pat_smith1969

heh I had a boner for the longest time for those HUGE chrome tarantula's. Never could figure out how to get enough juice to them without adding/upgrading my alt so I never got them.

I am actually salivating over the SS refs, with a side glance at the new PPI Power Class amps.


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> There is only one place that is authorized that can sell with full warranty. Online Car Stereo. There was a second place, but after 2 warnings to keep prices at map, we cut them off. However, something special is brewing that just might allow DIYMA members to purchase at amazing prices and still have full warranty! It would be for members only. ANT and I are working out the details now and it looks promising...


GIGGITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## damage

Why Class A/B and D instead of Class H?


----------



## FAUEE

Grizz Archer said:


> There is only one place that is authorized that can sell with full warranty. Online Car Stereo. There was a second place, but after 2 warnings to keep prices at map, we cut them off. However, something special is brewing that just might allow DIYMA members to purchase at amazing prices and still have full warranty! It would be for members only. ANT and I are working out the details now and it looks promising...


I was wondering what was with Soundstream being listed but not having any items on where I think you're talking about, lol.


----------



## PPI_GUY

It really is kinda exciting to see some new life breathed into one of the 'legacy brands' like PPi again. After what DEI did to the name, I had all but lost hope. I've got a huge batch of the old school PPi stuff horded back and I use some of it in my daily driver. But, if Grizz and ANT get their pricing worked out, I might just have to try out that Black Ice line.


----------



## rommelrommel

Hey Grizz, what about an affordable (ie: sub $200) 6x9 midbass suitable for either midbass in the door, or a rear deck free air sub alternative? 

I know a lot of people on here have asked for that, all there is out there is the ID X69 @ $300+ and some iffy CDT and Cadence drivers.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rommelrommel said:


> Hey Grizz, what about an affordable (ie: sub $200) 6x9 midbass suitable for either midbass in the door, or a rear deck free air sub alternative?
> 
> I know a lot of people on here have asked for that, all there is out there is the ID X69 @ $300+ and some iffy CDT and Cadence drivers.


Not a market for it worth developing. A sub is a sub and not a midbass. Many , many years ago, I would put 8" subs in my doors for midbass. What a moron I was! Sure, they played low enough, but they simply sis not have the transient response of a light coned, higher Fs midbass. Anyway, the only 6.9 separate midbass I have is in the Pro Audio series. Crazy loud and snappy as hell, but it does not drop as low a regular car audio midbass...

Sorry man!


----------



## KingRat13

PPI_GUY said:


> It really is kinda exciting to see some new life breathed into one of the 'legacy brands' like PPi again. After what DEI did to the name, I had all but lost hope. I've got a huge batch of the old school PPi stuff horded back and I use some of it in my daily driver. But, if Grizz and ANT get their pricing deal worked out, I might just have to try out that Black Ice line.


I'm still running the PPI system Jeff Symonds (Rolling Thunder, San Rafael) installed in my '91 4-Runner 15 years ago. A404 & A600, FRX-322 & PAR-225...still sounds great although I might change out the Sony CDX900 head unit some day.

Any of you know Jeff? Looks like he expanded into the HT market.


----------



## tnbubba

I think Jimmy needs to get drunk or laid.. probably both!


----------



## DAT

Grizz, great deal on the discount !
.. but is there anyway to prevent big name POWER SELLERS on Feebay from selling PPI, SS, and PA for right at or below dealer cost? They tell me no way you would be able to stop them, in fact one said it helped move freight for you guys.

IMHO if you eliminated the guys selling the stuff so cheap on ebay and had a no INTERNET SALES, the Soundstream and PPI name would be worth more.... i mean getting sold for pennies above dealer cost, people would rather take a chance and buy it and if it breaks throw it away and buy another.


not trying to start anything.. just curious..


----------



## Grizz Archer

DAT said:


> Grizz, great deal on the discount!
> .. but is there anyway to prevent big name POWER SELLERS on Feebay from selling PPI, SS, and PA for right at or below dealer cost? They tell me no way you would be able to stop them, in fact one said it helped move freight for you guys.
> 
> IMHO if you eliminated the guys selling the stuff so cheap on ebay and had a no INTERNET SALES, the Soundstream and PPI name would be worth more.... i mean getting sold for pennies above dealer cost, people would rather take a chance and buy it and if it breaks throw it away and buy another.
> 
> 
> not trying to start anything.. just curious..


 
Aaaargh! The never ending battle. We were approached by a company at CES about this. We signed up. We are taking measures now to drop these people. We can buy a unit from them, track it to the original distributor and drop them. It will not happen overnight, but it will happen. We will never be able to control what a consumer sells it for, but they do not really hurt us. We have a new tracking and searching company that finds and identifies all of this for us. What I do not understand is why a company would sell a $500 amp just to make $10. They do not sell that many of them, so???

Anyway, we are working on it. It is kind of sad when a kid buys from one of these whore companies, doesn't know what he is doing and blows something up. He call us and gets the big, Sorry, no warranty. Then the whore company will not take it back, and if they did, it certainly will not go back to the original distributor because they know it will never be allowed back here. Oh well, we all take our chances with online whores, myself included, but if I am buying something that could potentially fail, I learned my lesson and will pay a bit more for a legit sale and warranty. But then again, I am 42 and have probably been burned a few more times than the negligent kid...


----------



## bbd71

Hi Grizz, i have sent you a PM re Phantom Amps


----------



## wdemetrius1

DAT said:


> Grizz, great deal on the discount !
> .. but is there anyway to prevent big name POWER SELLERS on Feebay from selling PPI, SS, and PA for right at or below dealer cost? They tell me no way you would be able to stop them, in fact one said it helped move freight for you guys.
> 
> IMHO if you eliminated the guys selling the stuff so cheap on ebay and had a no INTERNET SALES, the Soundstream and PPI name would be worth more.... i mean getting sold for pennies above dealer cost, people would rather take a chance and buy it and if it breaks throw it away and buy another.
> 
> 
> not trying to start anything.. just curious..




Grizz,

What is the discount?


----------



## Black Widow Accord

HI GRIZZ!!!!!  BTW Sounds Like Jimmy Needs a Littlee schooling! tell Me when and where!


----------



## pat_smith1969

DAT I disagree with your second statement.

Companies these days are committing suicide if they have a No Internet Sales policy. That way of thinking is out of date.

Yes the local shops must be protected to a point. No argument there, but to remove all your products from the internet will make you obsolete. Look at Phoenix Gold. they are trying to make a come back but are not available on the internet and thus, no one has heard any of the new PG amps. They could be great amps but since no one can obtain them, there is no buzz about them.

I like what SS and PPI have done (an MANY other manufacturers). Select one or two internet dealers that are quality, set your limits on what they can sell them for. This way the Brick stores can sell them for 25% or so more than online but people who either are cheap or just don't have a store available to them. 

Personally I will pay 25% more for a product to support my local guys, but these days the difference is closer to 100%, and I am NOT paying $500 for an amp I can get online for $250. And NO the answer is NOT to get rid of the online dealers.


----------



## DAT

pat_smith1969 said:


> DAT I disagree with your second statement.
> 
> Companies these days are committing suicide if they have a No Internet Sales policy. That way of thinking is out of date.
> 
> Yes the local shops must be protected to a point. No argument there, but to remove all your products from the internet will make you obsolete. Look at Phoenix Gold. they are trying to make a come back but are not available on the internet and thus, no one has heard any of the new PG amps. They could be great amps but since no one can obtain them, there is no buzz about them.
> 
> I like what SS and PPI have done (an MANY other manufacturers). Select one or two internet dealers that are quality, set your limits on what they can sell them for. This way the Brick stores can sell them for 25% or so more than online but people who either are cheap or just don't have a store available to them.
> 
> Personally I will pay 25% more for a product to support my local guys, but these days the difference is closer to 100%, and I am NOT paying $500 for an amp I can get online for $250. And NO the answer is NOT to get rid of the online dealers.



I'm not saying not to have internet dealers ( authorized ones ) just most of the POWER SELLERS are actual distributors that are not supposed to be selling the stock on EBAY. like the ones that sell Hifonics 12" subs BNIB for $17 each plus shipping.. when MAP is like $89 each. Or selling PPI and Soundstream for $15 more than cost.


I support Grizz 100%

In fact I'm PM'ing him now.


----------



## pat_smith1969

ahhh ok, then I agree with you 100%

The path that DLS and PG have taken is a sore point with me. I want/have to get my stuff online and those two companies (great companies both of them) are unavailable to me.

and I support Grizz too, great guy from what I have read from him.

Some day I will have money to give him and he will give me audio goodness.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DAT said:


> I'm not saying not to have internet dealers ( authorized ones ) just most of the POWER SELLERS are actual distributors that are not supposed to be selling the stock on EBAY. like the ones that sell Hifonics 12" subs BNIB for $17 each plus shipping.. when MAP is like $89 each. Or selling PPI and Soundstream for $15 more than cost.
> 
> 
> I support Grizz 100%
> 
> In fact I'm PM'ing him now.


Thanx man. Hopefully guy like you support all manufacturers in trying to rid the whores. Check this out. The new company that is working with us in the effort found something really odd. Freaking Sears got ahold of many of our skus and sell them on the website. We just found out, and fired the distributor! Odd that a monster company like Sears would not have a buyer work with us for a deeper discount and go to their local distributor. Just goes to show that even the monster companies can be stupid. Hope it was worth it to the distributor that now lost all of our lines that they sold. 

Sadly, the other guy is right. Online sales are a must. But we limit each brand to only one authorized company that must sell at MAP. 3 major companies had been dropped since CES already due to breaking this one rule.


----------



## pat_smith1969

As a side note to this Grizz...

Since I learned that that one online dealer is authorized (not sure if I am supposed to say the name). I have stopped contemplating the other online dealer who is NOT authorized and have been browsing the authorized one even though they are a bit more expensive. I am willing to pay more for authorized.

Having said all that with the group buy going on I will go through that to buy anything at this time. But I just thought I would let you know that even cheap consumers like myself will take note of who is authorized and not even online.


----------



## Grizz Archer

pat_smith1969 said:


> As a side note to this Grizz...
> 
> Since I learned that that one online dealer is authorized (not sure if I am supposed to say the name). I have stopped contemplating the other online dealer who is NOT authorized and have been browsing the authorized one even though they are a bit more expensive. I am willing to pay more for authorized.
> 
> Having said all that with the group buy going on I will go through that to buy anything at this time. But I just thought I would let you know that even cheap consumers like myself will take note of who is authorized and not even online.


I'm not so sure buddy. I think you are smarter than most. Seems that warranties do not matter to so many people, and unfortunately, they are the people that need the warranties the most. I am willing to pay a little extra as well...


----------



## Kickinitoldfool

New to the forum but really glad to see product line reps are at large and here to help with questions on products.

Way to go Grizz and LP


----------



## Darth SQ

6spdcoupe said:


> Jimmy has been removed for some quality vacation time with himself.


subscribed.

Edit-I am absolutely loving the source units.
Definitely making me reconsider buying the new Sony double din model (BT70 I think).
I have a question though.
When will we see a true indash double din unit that plays blu-ray?
I can't understand why I can buy a SONY home blu-ray player dirt cheap now but nothing for our vehicles.
Maybe I'm missing something but dvd is going the way of VHS.
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Lanson

Subbed as well. I was thinking Stealths but The more I ponder it, the more the PPI Phantoms sound like what I really want. It seems the size of the two is really close.

Grizz keep doing what yo do, man. The "haters" are loud but they are also a minority.

They are also using their very own rope to hang themselves.


----------



## Grizz Archer

fourthmeal said:


> Subbed as well. I was thinking Stealths but The more I ponder it, the more the PPI Phantoms sound like what I really want. It seems the size of the two is really close.
> 
> Grizz keep doing what yo do, man. The "haters" are loud but they are also a minority.
> 
> They are also using their very own rope to hang themselves.


Thanx man. The Phantoms are a bit smaller but have alot more power since they are Class D and not AB like the Stealths...


----------



## Lanson

Grizz Archer said:


> Thanx man. The Phantoms are a bit smaller but have alot more power since they are Class D and not AB like the Stealths...



Sound quality comparable though? 

Shoot, I really liked the DTR's (and obviously was head-over-heels in love with the HRU), and is the frequency response plot pretty flat? I know some previous full-range class D's I've owned did well in many areas but had some "brittle-ness" and a bit of grainy top end.


----------



## envisionelec

jimmy2345 said:


> Not one product that will ever come out of Epsilon will ever compare to a Linear Power or Blues product. You are on one level....and they are far above that. There is something called sound quality.....I am sure thats a new phrase to Epsilon. Might want to grab a dictionary.
> 
> Its not even worth discussing with you....your market is not the same.


I know you're taking a mini vacation now, but I have to say this one thing about your LP fetish: I recently measured a 100% functioning Linear Power "IQ" series for crosstalk. 26dB. Yeah, that's quality. 

Next, it had a 10dB channel imbalance at the lower 25% of the gain adjustment. It got to about 1dB at best. Still not awesome but semi-acceptable.

Sooo...no.


----------



## rc10mike

Some of the amps look nice, but most of their new speakers and subs remind me of flashy audiobahn flea market crap.

(Yes, this is based on looks)


----------



## Grizz Archer

tvrift said:


> Some of the amps look nice, but most of their new speakers and subs remind me of flashy audiobahn flea market crap.
> 
> (Yes, this is based on looks)


Thank you! The only subs that I controlled the cosmetics on was the boring OS looking Art SQ series with virtually no custom tooled parts... I did the PC subs as well, but not the Candy red. It is a beautiful color, but I am getting my way and they will be more subdued with the black/copper that has been received so well. As for the regular Art subs, they perform very well, but I keep waiting for some sort of alien to crawl out of it. Looks like some weird sort of space ship... NOT MY IDEA!!!


----------



## Jsracing

I'm a big fan of the mini amps. A decade ago,i had huge Xtants, SSs, and PPIs in my trunk but now I ned all the space for diaper bags, red wagons, and the like. I like the simple look of the Phantom amps though would've preferred no giant round logo. The black ice look really nice but I can't fit those any longer.

Grizz - what is the switching frequency of the phantom amps?

Thanks.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> I'm a big fan of the mini amps. A decade ago,i had huge Xtants, SSs, and PPIs in my trunk but now I ned all the space for diaper bags, red wagons, and the like. I like the simple look of the Phantom amps though would've preferred no giant round logo. The black ice look really nice but I can't fit those any longer.
> 
> Grizz - what is the switching frequency of the phantom amps?
> 
> Thanks.


Ummmm... Fast? lol I don't know, but I'll ask the amp engineer for ya...


----------



## ChrisB

Wow, a P900.4 and P1000.1 would fit in the same space occupied by ONE of my Class AB subwoofer amplifiers.


----------



## Lanson

I'm excited for these amps, I'm eager to see the production pics. The Litebox4 is the closest I can think of regarding power for the size, other than the usual suspects (Alpine PDX, Pioneer PRS, you know the drill)


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> Ummmm... Fast?


Hahahaha. Love that answer.


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> Hahahaha. Love that answer.


You know me man. If I don't know something, I'll tell ya straight up! Just not my bag, but I am trying to get an answer...


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> You know me man. If I don't know something, I'll tell ya straight up! Just not my bag, but I am trying to get an answer...


I actually thought it was funny. It's rather strange that someone wants to know the switching frequency while it is extremely unlikely this person has any reason to need this info when there are so many other important points about the design.
I would have responded similarly - even if I did know.


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> I actually thought it was funny. It's rather strange that someone wants to know the switching frequency while it is extremely unlikely this person has any reason to need this info when there are so many other important points about the design.
> I would have responded similarly - even if I did know.


School me so I understand... What would the difference between higher and slower switching speeds? Might be nice to know since I have never heard this before...


----------



## Jsracing

I'm an EE and am interested to know. Aside from that, a faster switching speed means harmonics and intermods are also further up in frequency making for filtering easier (so lower noise floor), along with other benefits like smaller caps needed.
I appreciate Grizz looking that up for me, even if my intelligence level may not be high enough to comprehend it.


----------



## Lanson

I just want to know if they sound good.


----------



## DS-21

Those Phantoms look nice, Grizz! 

Narrow form factor to differentiate from the Jello/Alpine/Kenwood squares, most flexible processing section of the bunch by far from what I can see, and solid power. Don't know about price, but I hope they're cheaper than the Jello HD's.

I hope they do really well for you, because they look like a very solid addition to the market. 

I'm perfectly happy with my current amp situation, but two of those P900.4's, or a P900.4 for the midbasses and a P900.5 to drive the widebanders (bridged) and the sub might just be in my future...


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> School me so I understand... What would the difference between higher and slower switching speeds? Might be nice to know since I have never heard this before...


I'll cover this topic as briefly as I can (and I'm never brief). You can Google much of this and correct me appropriately as I am going from memory.  If you don't know the terms, there are nearly infinite resources online... 

I'll bold the words that you might want to research.

*FET*s are only _so fast_. The larger the FET - in terms of Drain-to-Source voltage, current rating or actual die size, the higher the gate capacitance. Large package devices also have inherently high lead inductance that causes problems with *overshoot*, *ringing* and* EMI* control.

This, there is a definite trade-off that every designer must make WRT package size (and dissipation) vs. switching speed vs. current handling. 

*cracks knuckles*

Think of a FET's gate as a capacitor (it pretty much is) that allows current to flow through the device. You can charge and discharge a capacitor by applying a voltage and letting it discharge through a resistor. Now do this quickly - like a couple hundred times per second. The capacitor resists discharging fully because of a property called *dielectric absorption*. A temporary fix is to decrease the resistor's value, but eventually you will have such a low resistance that you won't be discharging the cap so much as shorting out your voltage source. So what do you do? You have to actively discharge the capacitor by alternately switching the capacitor to GND. Or, you can apply a negative bias voltage when you want to discharge even more quickly; Essentially "sucking" the electrons out of the capacitor. But we're getting ahead of ourselves...

So, FET gate drive circuits have to be able to inject/discharge this capacitive charge very quickly to ensure that the device turns on and off cleanly and with as little overshoot as possible. Overshoot can actually be described as an effect of *cross-conduction* or *shoot-through* and is a condition in which a particular pair of FETs across the power rails (high side+low side) are ON simultaneously. This is bad because it draws a ton of current and heats up the FETs while not actually doing any work. Cross-conduction can be caused by a number of things: 

1. Insufficient gate drive causing the FET to operate in its linear region.
2. Poor PCB layout.
3. Little or no *dead time* (deliberate condition where neither FET is commanded to turn on).
4. Uncontrolled* dv/dt* components (instantaneous rate of voltage change over time).

All of these can be attributed to the nasty *parasitics* that literally leech efficiency and decrease reliability. PCB layout is often a key player in how badly these parasitics affect the end results. Other things you'll see are ferrite beads on the FET's leads in attempts to reduce overshoot by introducing a damped inductive component (filter) that rejects ambient noise.

Okay, so where does this put the issue of switching frequency? There are three main points to consider:

1. Intended bandwidth of the amplifier audio signal
2. Accepted distortion levels.
3. Power efficiency

The rule of thumb is to set the switching frequency 10x the highest audio frequency you intend to amplify. (details are not discussed here). 

Higher switching rates do mean smaller filter components, but they also present a larger risk of producing radiated energy from the speaker wires. Some designs are so bad that they radiate from every cable and hole in the chassis.

Distortion mechanisms include: output filter inductor saturation, poor power supply filtering, unsymmetrical triangle generator waveforms and a host of other nonlinearities.

So the breakdown:

Low switching frequencies 50-150kHz are reserved for low bandwidth or very high power amplifiers. Remember, large FETs and large banks of FETs are hard to switch quickly - and forcing them produces cross-conduction and lower efficiency. 

Medium switching frequencies 200-650kHz are the most popular for mainstream high fidelity. 

High frequencies 750kHz and up are mostly specialized or miniaturized amplifiers such as those in MP3 players and Cell Phones where the highest power is under 1W.

Hopefully this will give you a little insight into the reasons certain switching frequencies are chosen. And it might also make you think twice about how difficult it is to design a really good Class-D amplifier...


----------



## envisionelec

No love for the mega post?

Questions? I didn't mean to be over the top...


----------



## Jsracing

I liked the mega post, but I'm waiting for the switching frequency info.


----------



## Darth SQ

Jsracing said:


> I liked the mega post, but I'm waiting for the switching frequency info.


Dittos on the mgpost.

I'm just waiting for the amps, but mostly the source units to finally hit market.

OOOOOOOOOOH COPPERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
(Best Homer Simpson impression)

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Lanson

I think I'd be happy to give them an honest shot. I'm going to need 4 amps (3 4ch, 1 mono) or 3 amps (two 5ch, 1 ch) to get what I need, so the smaller the better so long as they perform.


----------



## emoon3

Also interested in the group buy. Read the thread but didn't see any info. Has this happened already?


----------



## rexroadj

already ended because no one actually put $ down! It was pages of "talk"


----------



## tnbubba

nobody has $ to put down! its the economy stoopid..LOL

wish I had $ I need a sub amp!


----------



## xBlitzkriegx

i didnt have enough posts at the time and i didnt wanna spam the place just to get to it. not worried. the time will come at some point to buy amps.


----------



## DAT

I have tons of the Phantom amps coming next week. Will post prices soon.


----------



## rexroadj

???????????????????????????? Cant wait to see the $$ for them!


----------



## Grizz Archer

DAT said:


> I have tons of the Phantom amps coming next week. Will post prices soon.


Hate to burst the bubble but we do not even have them yet. Soon, but not quite...


----------



## sqshoestring

I liked the mega post. In the end how it works is whats really important. I always wondered if amp designers consider how amps clip, or rather how bad they sound when it happens. (given it is outside of ratings)

Wow that Phantom is small.


----------



## brocken

Grizz Archer said:


> Hate to burst the bubble but we do not even have them yet. Soon, but not quite...


Bummer, I was going to try one.


----------



## Jsracing

Grizz -
Any update on the switching frequency?

Thanks.


----------



## DAT

Grizz Archer said:


> Hate to burst the bubble but we do not even have them yet. Soon, but not quite...


Well just what my local dealer told me, oh well as soon as they arrive I will try them out and let you guys know if they are good or just don't cut it.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Wow! This thread is still alive? 
Actually, I am glad Grizz is still participating with info and opinion. 
These new Phantoms have my attention as well. I don't need to know 'how' they work as much as I need to know that they work well and are reliable. Good to hear they are finally on their way to market. Although doing a quick search yielded several "retailers" who have already posted prices.

My main focal point of interest remains on the Black Ice series though. Very interested to see production pics and testing down on those! I love the simple, understated look and they seem to hold great promise with flexibility and very strong power output. 
I know I will never see an updated, modern version of my Pro Mos amps (Grizz, I know you would like that too!) but, those B/I amps may be a strong contender as a replacement.


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Hate to burst the bubble but we do not even have them yet. Soon, but not quite...


Grizz,
I would, and I also imagine many more of us would really appreciate it if you could post some "sitting on the desk" pics of the source units when you get the final versions literally in your hands. 
I love the double din unit but the simulated pic on the PPI website doesn't cut it.
When you have the time of course. 
Thanks in advance!
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

Here's the deal with Phantom... Wasn't too happy with the way the gel logo came out so we are changing it to a 1-piece design with new material. We had samples at the Germany Tuning World show I just returned from, but they were not perfect either. Performance-wise, they are complete, but we had to make 1 last tool, so as usual for a new project, they will be right on time in Junetember. lol I know I will regret saying this, but I am guesstimating late June... BTW, which one of you mentioned something about the Phantom line being expanded to more than double the models and made into a Soundstream series since all of the Soundstream guys are whining that they did not get any? Nobody? Maybe it was just in my head... Snicker, snicker!

As for the INGENIX radios, we are taking extra precaution. Last year we had a major problem with the 7" flip-outs. Radios this badass must not have any problems. We just finished our 5th pre-production run and testing is in progress. Once they are confident, I will finally get my sample. If anybody can find a problem, I can. We need these to hit the world by storm with a very minimal failure rate. The wait is killing me, but I fully respect the reason for it and know it will be worth it...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> The wait is killing me, but I fully respect the reason for it and know it will be worth it...


Ditto!!!!!!!!! By the way if there are problems, I can help find them too 

Its still at the top of my list of headunits to replace my current one. The wait is killing me but I totally agree and respect the reason for the wait!


----------



## Jsracing

I would suggest a smaller, more subtle logo for the phantom amps. Something like the Soundstream reference amps...make the heatsink a traditional fin design with a small PPI logo somewhere.

Also still really interested to know the switching frequency because it does impact noise floor, filtering, and other performance aspects.


----------



## Lanson

Yep, waiting for Ingenix as well. The MS8 will play with the stock HU until then I suppose.


----------



## Darth SQ

fourthmeal said:


> Yep, waiting for Ingenix as well. The MS8 will play with the stock HU until then I suppose.


Fourthmeal,
Is the Ingenix HU going to be part of your Ford Flex build?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Lanson

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Fourthmeal,
> Is the Ingenix HU going to be part of your Ford Flex build?
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I am hoping so.

I think it would be a great swap from the stock SYNC setup.


----------



## Lanson

Its the beginning of Junetember. Any cool pics of the Phantoms now that a few changes were made?


----------



## Grizz Archer

fourthmeal said:


> Its the beginning of Junetember. Any cool pics of the Phantoms now that a few changes were made?


I just saw the new badges yesterday. WAY better. Finals samples being sent to me now. Performance is already approved and they will go to production soon. Actually, the boards are already done, now they just need final assembly...


----------



## 81maliblue

Whats the msrp on the amplifiers? I would really love to give these new guys a try


----------



## Lanson

Love to see them if/when its possible. Thanks for the updates!


----------



## Grizz Archer

81maliblue said:


> Whats the msrp on the amplifiers? I would really love to give these new guys a try


P1000.1 $329.95
P600.2 $249.95
P900.4 $349.95
P900.5 $419.95


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> P1000.1 $329.95
> P600.2 $249.95
> P900.4 $349.95
> P900.5 $419.95


HOLY CRAP Thats some seriously affordable power!!!!!


----------



## DAT

Nice Prices I can't wait for them to hit the streets... Another low priced quality amp for me to stock.


----------



## Jsracing

I'm really interested to try these (really looking forward to DAT's prices), especially if the power figures are accurate (they're rated MUCH higher than other full range Class D's of similar size, so I'm a bit skeptical on the power figures). Even if the power figures are a bit lower, still plenty of juice and power for what you're paying.

BUT!, I would REALLY like to know the *switching frequency* (this seems to be elusive).


----------



## xBlitzkriegx

Grizz, I would like to see a price list on those if possible. Thank you. I am interested in the 800.4 specifically.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> HOLY CRAP Thats some seriously affordable power!!!!!


Personally, I think they should raise the price. Just like I think the Reference should have been priced 30-40% higher. PERCEIVED VALUE. When something seems too got to be true, it isn't always false. I paid $7+ per watt for quality when I was a kid, but this is what the owners chose. So the masses will buy them but the skeptics will be afraid... The new Phantom review for PAS Mag is done and will come out at the same time as he review as the Stealth STL6.620...


----------



## Grizz Archer

xBlitzkriegx said:


> Grizz, I would like to see a price list on those if possible. Thank you. I am interested in the 800.4 specifically.


I still do not have pricing on Black Ice yet. We have to make a new tool for more chassis mass so pricing is still not here yet... Sorry man!


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Personally, I think they should raise the price. Just like I think the Reference should have been priced 30-40% higher. PERCEIVED VALUE. When something seems too got to be true, it isn't always false. I paid $7+ per watt for quality when I was a kid, but this is what the owners chose. So the masses will buy them but the skeptics will be afraid... The new Phantom review for PAS Mag is done and will come out at the same time as he review as the Stealth STL6.620...


Your right! I think the Ref's could have easily been 30-40% higher and still be VERY worth it....but then again, we all know that I absolutely LOVE those amps! I dont think that would change the skeptics mind though...Ignorance is pretty tough to beat? I think they Phantoms will do well on here being that its a real bargain hunter type of sight. If it does rated power without any hiccups then I see these being a real forum boner! It will just take a few people to actually get there hands on them and solitify the product. Its funny with the reviews too...... When a super high end product tests well its the greatest thing ever made. When something new or from a different background tests well, suddenly the tests mean nothing? Same as the pricing I suppose? I personally look forward to the review. The other thing that is funny is that if it tests average to the general market it will be a fail despite it likely being a better bargain then others in the same "testing" range?
I wish you guys luck with it either way. I know I have been extremely pleased with the products you guys have been throwing out the last couple years! Keep it up!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> I'm really interested to try these (really looking forward to DAT's prices), especially if the power figures are accurate (they're rated MUCH higher than other full range Class D's of similar size, so I'm a bit skeptical on the power figures). Even if the power figures are a bit lower, still plenty of juice and power for what you're paying.
> 
> BUT!, I would REALLY like to know the *switching frequency* (this seems to be elusive).


OK, all he just told me was that is is in the 50kHz - 7kHz range. I personally have no freaking clue if this is good, awesome, average or pathetic. Your thoughts?


----------



## Lanson

I can't hear that high so I imagine its just fine. I'm fairly certain you meant 50k to 70k


----------



## AAAAAAA

Grizz Archer said:


> Personally, I think they should raise the price. Just like I think the Reference should have been priced 30-40% higher. PERCEIVED VALUE. When something seems too got to be true, it isn't always false. I paid $7+ per watt for quality when I was a kid, but this is what the owners chose. So the masses will buy them but the skeptics will be afraid... The new Phantom review for PAS Mag is done and will come out at the same time as he review as the Stealth STL6.620...


I think having the price at a realistic mark is much better then having an overinflated one. I mean anyone will see MSRP X and then see web price Y. Regardless of who is looking, the Y price is what we all look at and thus get a feeling of it’s true value. Y won’t change if you do X+30%, but I will tell you, who ever ends up paying X will surely regret it once he sees Y, and he will. 

A good product is a good product and some products are really cheep to make regardless of quality, such as amplifiers. When products are so alike (like amplifiers) then pricing becomes one of, if not the main way to market “value” or “quality”. And this is for every company really I don't mean this in a negative way towards epsilon.

I do get it in a way though, if the best amplifier (assuming this existed) only cost 10$ to make, what audiophile would “believe” in it’s SQ anyway if he could buy it at only 100$. I get it, audiophiles seem like they WANT to be taken advantaged of. –please oh please take all of my money because psychoacoustic, the feeling that this should sound better, is what I really crave and make myself believe. Hehehe. If everyone can't own it and it's more exclusive.... then it's better.

/rant


----------



## Grizz Archer

fourthmeal said:


> I can't hear that high so I imagine its just fine. I'm fairly certain you meant 50k to 70k


Ummm, I suppose that is just what he typed. Like I said, I have no idea how this impacts quality. But since you know, is this good?


----------



## Jsracing

Grizz Archer said:


> OK, all he just told me was that is is in the 50kHz - 7kHz range. I personally have no freaking clue if this is good, awesome, average or pathetic. Your thoughts?


TBH, that's a bit low, but how much it impacts performance depends highly on your filtering also. If it still sounds good in the end, then the end combination of design trade-offs worked well enough for the target application and users.
We may not be able to hear this high, but switching causes many harmonic frequencies which all interact with one another (and the switching fundamental) to create intermods (IMs). The higher the switching frequency, the further away from your passband those IMs are and thus can't be heard and won't be amplified. Also, IMs create more IMs. This is why the noise floor gets raised if the switching frequency is closer to the passband. Filtering needs to take into account these closer IMs as well as how quickly the level drops between peaks (easier to deal with on faster switching since the peaks are closer together).
I'm one of the few that likes what's good, regardless of who makes it. For PPI and SS, I think pricing them more realistically to what the market is willing to pay will work to their benefit as it will allow a larget market to afford and consider them. If it's a good product, it will sell and eventually break through whatever incorrect perceptions are there. There will always be naysayers, but a good product will sell and Epsilon will build a reputation for themselves in the higher end market. If it's good, I'll buy it and try it...regardless of who makes it.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> TBH, that's a bit low, but how much it impacts performance depends highly on your filtering also. If it still sounds good in the end, then the end combination of design trade-offs worked well enough for the target application and users.
> We may not be able to hear this high, but switching causes many harmonic frequencies which all interact with one another (and the switching fundamental) to create intermods (IMs). The higher the switching frequency, the further away from your passband those IMs are and thus can't be heard and won't be amplified. Also, IMs create more IMs. This is why the noise floor gets raised if the switching frequency is closer to the passband. Filtering needs to take into account these closer IMs as well as how quickly the level drops between peaks (easier to deal with on faster switching since the peaks are closer together).
> I'm one of the few that likes what's good, regardless of who makes it. For PPI and SS, I think pricing them more realistically to what the market is willing to pay will work to their benefit as it will allow a larget market to afford and consider them. If it's a good product, it will sell and eventually break through whatever incorrect perceptions are there. There will always be naysayers, but a good product will sell and Epsilon will build a reputation for themselves in the higher end market. If it's good, I'll buy it and try it...regardless of who makes it.


Thanx for the insight bro. We are getting ready to build a SQ comp vehicle with them to see what we can do with fullrange D Phantoms. Ought to be interesting...


----------



## Jsracing

Grizz Archer said:


> Thanx for the insight bro. We are getting ready to build a SQ comp vehicle with them to see what we can do with fullrange D Phantoms. Ought to be interesting...


Ooh, this is very interesting. I'm a HUGE fan of the full range class Ds if implemented correctly. The first Alpine PDXs had noise issues, but latter introductions from other companies have performed flawlessly.
Just as an FYI, but 2 other mfrs use switching frequencies of 400kHz+ to give you an idea of the range used. These 2 mfrs are the highest I know of. All other ones fall around the sub-100kHz range.
Looking forward to a P900.4 or P900.5. Hope the power figures are real as those are some insane figures!


----------



## Lanson

Grizz Archer said:


> Thanx for the insight bro. We are getting ready to build a SQ comp vehicle with them to see what we can do with fullrange D Phantoms. Ought to be interesting...



its more than I knew as well, very educational!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> TBH, that's a bit low, but how much it impacts performance depends highly on your filtering also. If it still sounds good in the end, then the end combination of design trade-offs worked well enough for the target application and users.
> We may not be able to hear this high, but switching causes many harmonic frequencies which all interact with one another (and the switching fundamental) to create intermods (IMs). The higher the switching frequency, the further away from your passband those IMs are and thus can't be heard and won't be amplified. Also, IMs create more IMs. This is why the noise floor gets raised if the switching frequency is closer to the passband. Filtering needs to take into account these closer IMs as well as how quickly the level drops between peaks (easier to deal with on faster switching since the peaks are closer together).
> I'm one of the few that likes what's good, regardless of who makes it. For PPI and SS, I think pricing them more realistically to what the market is willing to pay will work to their benefit as it will allow a larget market to afford and consider them. If it's a good product, it will sell and eventually break through whatever incorrect perceptions are there. There will always be naysayers, but a good product will sell and Epsilon will build a reputation for themselves in the higher end market. If it's good, I'll buy it and try it...regardless of who makes it.


CORRECTION! I forwarded your email to the amp engineer. he replied with this...

"Oh wait - are the Phantom amps the full range Class D's? I gave you the PSU switching frequency.

The Class D switching frequency would be in the 250 KHz to 350 KHz range."

Apparently I was not clear in my request. I am guessing this is better...

Sorry about the confusion bro...


----------



## Lanson

Impressive! 

Now I really want to try these bad boys out.


----------



## Grizz Archer

I just got word from a 3rd party engineer. He said the amp did slightly more than rated and the power density was awesome. He added that he really liked the amplifier. He did tell me that he though the input sensitivity is off a bit and needs to be adjusted for low signal radios. But anybody buying one of these will probably have a real radio. May not make the change on the first shipment because they are already built and waiting to ship...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> I just got word from a 3rd party engineer. He said the amp did slightly more than rated and the power density was awesome. He added that he really liked the amplifier. He did tell me that he though the input sensitivity is off a bit and needs to be adjusted for low signal radios. But anybody buying one of these will probably have a real radio. May not make the change on the first shipment because they are already built and waiting to ship...


Grizz,
Have you done anything new to the Rubicon?
Meaning, recent updates to the car audio, suspension, etc... since the last time you posted about it?
Are you planning to use any of the new PPI equipment?
Maybe the Ingenix SU?
Actually, if you would post what you're running for equipment now, that would be great.
Last I heared you installed an MS8?
Thx,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Have you done anything new to the Rubicon?
> Meaning, recent updates to the car audio, suspension, etc... since the last time you posted about it?
> Are you planning to use any of the new PPI equipment?
> Maybe the Ingenix SU?
> Actually, if you would post what you're running for equipment now, that would be great.
> Last I heared you installed an MS8?
> Thx,
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


You mean the Rubicon amps? No changes Subs? Discontinued
Use PPI for what? Sorry, I do not understand the question?

Oh you mean about my vehicle? lol Constantly changing. Currently running the RF3.6C components up front, 6.5" neo pro audio in the rear, four RF-8W subs, one STL1.600 sub amp, two STL-4320 fullrange amps, the JBL MS-8 and a VIR-7355NRBT source unit.

But it will be redone one more time for SEMA!!!


----------



## Lanson

MS8 has been a very worthwhile addition for me as well. I followed that advice and saved my pennies and snagged one, next step will probably be these amps.

SEMA eh? AKA in my back yard. Hmmm...


----------



## Grizz Archer

fourthmeal said:


> MS8 has been a very worthwhile addition for me as well. I followed that advice and saved my pennies and snagged one, next step will probably be these amps.
> 
> SEMA eh? AKA in my back yard. Hmmm...


Get a ticket for SEMA and I'll buy ya a brew. My Jeep will be featured in the BDS Suspension booth. $35k value for the Jeep, but currently at $41.510 in sponsored products NOT including labor. I am a poor bastard and build custom ride on the blessings of sponsors. Sometimes it pays to be a show off...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> You mean the Rubicon amps? No changes Subs? Discontinued
> Use PPI for what? Sorry, I do not understand the question?
> 
> Oh you mean about my vehicle? lol Constantly changing. Currently running the RF3.6C components up front, 6.5" neo pro audio in the rear, four RF-8W subs, one STL1.600 sub amp, two STL-4320 fullrange amps, the JBL MS-8 and a VIR-7355NRBT source unit.
> 
> But it will be redone one more time for SEMA!!!


Can you say what you have planned for SEMA?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Can you say what you have planned for SEMA?
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Nothing special...
Unobtanium 5-way components
liquid nitrogen cooled Class XXX amplifiers
Motorless hyperactive fane low frequency transducers

LOL Actually it truly will not be anything crazy, but here is what I am thinking...

If I do Soundstream:

RF3.6C Components
Probably the Stealth Amps again since 2012 models will not be here by then... Or maybe the D-Tower again
RF-8W for Subs - maybe less in a more ergonomical enclosure
MS-8
INGENIX Source Unit
SM.654P Rear Fill

If I do PPI:

PC3.65C Components
Phantom Amps for sure
A.8SQ for Subs - maybe less in a more ergonomical enclosure
MS-8
INGENIX Source Unit
PM.654 Rear Fill

No matter what, I will be running compact amps, 3-way components and 8" subs. There is nothing that cam make me go any other way... Just too bad the micro products will not be out yet...


----------



## Darth SQ

fourthmeal said:


> MS8 has been a very worthwhile addition for me as well. I followed that advice and saved my pennies and snagged one, next step will probably be these amps.
> 
> SEMA eh? AKA in my back yard. Hmmm...


Grizz,
Sometimes mooching is the only way to get things done.
I remember allowing Ratical Tops in Tempe, AZ. prototype a complete replacement fiberglass top on my 88 S-10, Hot Tops in Tempe prototype some ground effects, and another company in Phoenix, prototype a full sliding rag top on my 85 Toyota PU Snug Top shell.
If you can do without your vehicle for a few months at a time, it's a great alternative to paying for it and you get to be the 1st one with the new stuff.
Also, other companies jump in once the word gets out and offer their equipment because they know your going to be in magazine articles and advertisements.
Which brings me to my next project.
If I drop off my Suburban with you for say, the next four months........

Fourth,
Anything new with the Flex?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Nothing special...
> Unobtanium 5-way components
> liquid nitrogen cooled Class XXX amplifiers
> Motorless hyperactive fane low frequency transducers
> 
> LOL Actually it truly will not be anything crazy, but here is what I am thinking...
> 
> If I do Soundstream:
> 
> RF3.6C Components
> Probably the Stealth Amps again since 2012 models will not be here by then... Or maybe the D-Tower again
> RF-8W for Subs - maybe less in a more ergonomical enclosure
> MS-8
> INGENIX Source Unit
> SM.654P Rear Fill
> 
> If I do PPI:
> 
> PC3.65C Components
> Phantom Amps for sure
> A.8SQ for Subs - maybe less in a more ergonomical enclosure
> MS-8
> INGENIX Source Unit
> PM.654 Rear Fill
> 
> No matter what, I will be running compact amps, 3-way components and 8" subs. There is nothing that cam make me go any other way... Just too bad the micro products will not be out yet...


Which Ingenix?
Any real life pics yet?
Thx,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Sometimes mooching is the only way to get things done.
> I remember allowing Ratical Tops in Tempe, AZ. prototype a complete replacement fiberglass top on my 88 S-10, Hot Tops in Tempe prototype some ground effects, and another company in Phoenix, prototype a full sliding rag top on my 85 Toyota PU Snug Top shell.
> If you can do without your vehicle for a few months at a time, it's a great alternative to paying for it and you get to be the 1st one with the new stuff.
> Also, other companies jump in once the word gets out and offer their equipment because they know your going to be in magazine articles and advertisements.
> Which brings me to my next project.
> If I drop off my Suburban with you for say, the next four months........
> 
> Fourth,
> Anything new with the Flex?
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR




Mooching?! You're killing me dude. I am a marketing mufu man! I yield tons of exposure via websites, shows, magazines, audio events, SEMA, TV, other manufacturer's websites, etc... 

I am all about side jobs now. I'll be honest - I can sell stuff cheap, but I never discount my labor. But with no overhead, I should still be able to beat any high end shop price... I have been wanting a new side job as long as it is not full blown psycho that takes a year...

PM me about the Flex...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Which Ingenix?
> Any real life pics yet?
> Thx,
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


The dbl din SNX-771 for SS or the P-771NX for PPI the Honda Accord units are already done. They are being ultra critical on quality for these. They are about done doing final testing on the Epsilon run. Whoa, I did not realize that Epsilon is the "E" and 5th letter in the Greek alphabet. Anyway, we are finally ready to hit production. As they are being made, new pics will be taken and spread like wildfire... I still have not even received my sample damnit! Don't they realize that I'm nobody and should have one first?!?! lol


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Mooching?! You're killing me dude. I am a marketing mufu man! I yield tons of exposure via websites, shows, magazines, audio events, SEMA, TV, other manufacturer's websites, etc...
> 
> I am all about side jobs now. I'll be honest - I can sell stuff cheap, but I never discount my labor. But with no overhead, I should still be able to beat any high end shop price... I have been wanting a new side job as long as it is not full blown psycho that takes a year...
> 
> PM me about the Flex...


Grizz,
Sorry for the confusion, but the Flex question is for Fourthmeal (Fourth).

Also, I think you misunderstood me.....I'm a full blown mooch, meaning I leave it with you for months on end and get back the latest and greatest in components, design, and install talent with the promise having the vehicle wherever you want anytime, anywhere!
If you twist my arm, I'll at least buy the beer and dinner at Northwoods.

BTW, the 771 is the exact SU I am going to go with if it's out in time.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Sorry for the confusion, but the Flex question is for Fourthmeal (Fourth).
> 
> Also, I think you misunderstood me.....I'm a full blown mooch, meaning I leave it with you for months on end and get back the latest and greatest in components, design, and install talent with the promise having the vehicle wherever you want anytime, anywhere!
> If you twist my arm, I'll at least buy the beer and dinner at Northwoods.
> 
> BTW, the 771 is the exact SU I am going to go with if it's out in time.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


My bad for not understanding. Dude, you are a cool guys and I enjoy talking to you, but HELL NO! lol I don't have time to work on my own ride. The only way I would break from it is to make some side money. If you cannot pay my labor, you certainly cannot afford my beer!  Especially since they are almost synonymous with each other... But hey, 40 years from now, when I retire, if I am still alive, I will gladly hook up your current model spaceship with some cool samples or something. Now you have been warned - start saving for my beer on your next check...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> My bad for not understanding. Dude, you are a cool guys and I enjoy talking to you, but HELL NO! lol I don't have time to work on my own ride. The only way I would break from it is to make some side money. If you cannot pay my labor, you certainly cannot afford my beer!  Especially since they are almost synonymous with each other... But hey, 40 years from now, when I retire, if I am still alive, I will gladly hook up your current model spaceship with some cool samples or something. Now you have been warned - start saving for my beer on your next check...


Love it!:laugh:

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Lanson

Yeah Grizz he's talking about my car, the Ford Flex... a total PITA to work on but so far its going well. 

And it WILL be competing, so hopefully that pans out.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Whats up with the micro amps?


----------



## A Audio Stench

Coming...


----------



## Jsracing

Grizz Archer said:


> CORRECTION! I forwarded your email to the amp engineer. he replied with this...
> 
> "Oh wait - are the Phantom amps the full range Class D's? I gave you the PSU switching frequency.
> 
> The Class D switching frequency would be in the 250 KHz to 350 KHz range."
> 
> Apparently I was not clear in my request. I am guessing this is better...
> 
> Sorry about the confusion bro...


No prob. Yes, that's MUCH better for switching frequency. Given the output and theoretical low noise floor due to the high switching rate, the Phantom amps are THE bargain for Class D amps. I see a P900.4 or P900.5 in my future, though I would like the low sensitivity input resolved as I might use this with a stock HU.

For the SEMA vehicle, I vote for the PPI configuration. Not only because I'd like to see the reaction tp the Phantom amps, A8 sub, and comps, but also because SS is a but more known and respected now with the Reference amps getting great reviews while many remain sceptical on the PPI branded products and it would be good exposure for PPI.

I really like the new Reference and Rubicon amps, but wish they were smaller as I don't have room anymore for 2ft long amps, but damn they're pretty.
How about a special edition Phantom that looks like a mini Rub or Ref???

Oh and VERY VERY VERY interested to know more about the micro amps. Are these for car or motorbike use? AB or D? Approximate power levels?

Btw, I'm local in socal and quite close to Epsilon, so if you want a side job Grizz, let me know.


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> My bad for not understanding. Dude, you are a cool guys and I enjoy talking to you, but HELL NO! lol I don't have time to work on my own ride. The only way I would break from it is to make some side money. If you cannot pay my labor, you certainly cannot afford my beer!  Especially since they are almost synonymous with each other... But hey, 40 years from now, when I retire, if I am still alive, I will gladly hook up your current model spaceship with some cool samples or something. Now you have been warned - start saving for my beer on your next check...


Grizz,
Here's a question for your PPI engineers about the Power Class PC3.65C component speakers which I am looking real hard at after you recommended them.
If my amp puts out a true 100 watts per channel, how many watts are used or lost by the crossover that comes with it?
Or put another way, how many watts actually get to the speakers after going through the crossover?
Also, why is there no 3way option in the Art series line of components speakers?
It would seem a no brainer for sound quality.
Especially since members on this forum rave about PPI's midrange in the Power Class 3way set (PC3.65C), it just seems there should be one in the Art set.
Thanks in advance,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Here's a question for your PPI engineers about the Power Class PC3.65C component speakers which I am looking real hard at after you recommended them.
> If my amp puts out a true 100 watts per channel, how many watts are used or lost by the crossover that comes with it?
> Or put another way, how many watts actually get to the speakers after going through the crossover?
> Also, why is there no 3way option in the Art series line of components speakers?
> It would seem a no brainer for sound quality.
> Especially since members on this forum rave about PPI's midrange in the Power Class 3way set (PC3.65C), it just seems there should be one in the Art set.
> Thanks in advance,
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I engineer all the speakers. But I am way too stupid to engineer an amplifier. lol

The xovers are fairly traditional with standard losses. You measure the actual power at each speaker with a DVM.

My company was not sure about the 3-way components idea. They said the 2-ways will always outsell the 3-ways by 95 to 5 out of a hundred. Seems reasonable to me. But we sold out of the 3-ways first and had to make a rush order of the 2.5". Nobody ever listens to the fat, bald guy!  Never even considered an Art 3-way set. Hmmm....


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> I engineer all the speakers. But I am way too stupid to engineer an amplifier. lol
> 
> The xovers are fairly traditional with standard losses. You measure the actual power at each speaker with a DVM.
> 
> My company was not sure about the 3-way components idea. They said the 2-ways will always outsell the 3-ways by 95 to 5 out of a hundred. Seems reasonable to me. But we sold out of the 3-ways first and had to make a rush order of the 2.5". Nobody ever listens to the fat, bald guy!  Never even considered an Art 3-way set. Hmmm....


Grizz,
Can you elaborate on what you mean be standard losses using my 100watt input as a baseline?
Thx,
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Can you elaborate on what you mean be standard losses using my 100watt input as a baseline?
> Thx,
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Gonna PM ya...


----------



## envisionelec

Jsracing said:


> TBH, that's a bit low.


You're being kind. 

But thankfully it's not 50-70kHz. Interestingly though, why is it 250-350kHz and not locked in? That's a self-oscillating design...so my interest in now piqued. S.O. Class D is great for sound quality, but extremely difficult to implement in a single chassis stereo or multi channel configuration because of the strong possibility of heterodyning. Ideally, the output switching should be synchronized (as a multiple of) with the power supply to prevent such an effect. Audible or not, the noise injection can certainly degrades the performance of the preamp.
While both 50/250 and 70/350kHz are possible, it's surprising to me that there is a broad range, because it makes carrier filtering that much more difficult. The filter will be more effective at one frequency than another.


----------



## Jsracing

Regardless of switching frequencies for the power supply and output sections, you'll get mixed frequencies (heterodynes, intermods, whatever term is preferred), but the further away these frequencies are from te pass band, the less it will affect it, get amplified, or impact the noise floor and easier to filter. I don't know their oscillator design, whether it's mixed and multiplied, how many times, how much jitter, etc. I figure that's too much detail. I was curious also asto why the switching rate isn't locked, but knowing it's in the 300khz range is good enough to make it better than most of the class Ds available, and just below 2 mfrs in speed.
Hopefully Grizz can pull more details out of his amp engineer for us. I'd like to know more as well.
Amps aren't bad, but speaker design befuddles me.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I'm gonna go ahead throw another vote out there for PPI at SEMA. Of course the main reason is that I am a biased SOB and well...look at my username. 

With these new D class Phantom's soon to hit the market and at very affordable price points, I can see the end of A/B coming soon. Probabaly not in the 'entry-level' amps offered by manufacturers but, in the better, high-end stuff. I mean if you can buy a small footprint amp with the same power output of an amp 2 or even 3 times its size, while being less taxing on your electrical system AND sounding just as good, which are you gonna buy?
Of course all of this is dependant on the amp being reliable, having an excellent crossover section, etc. I have faith in Grizz on the x-over thing.
I would like to see soft and hard clip indicators on a future version of the Phantom and/or the Black Ice amps. Very helpful for beginners and the lazy (me) on initial hookup. 
Looks like good stuff is happening with the P-P-I brand name once again!


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> I'm gonna go ahead throw another vote out there for PPI at SEMA. Of course the main reason is that I am a biased SOB and well...look at my username.
> 
> With these new D class Phantom's soon to hit the market and at very affordable price points, I can see the end of A/B coming soon. Probabaly not in the 'entry-level' amps offered by manufacturers but, in the better, high-end stuff. I mean if you can buy a small footprint amp with the same power output of an amp 2 or even 3 times its size, while being less taxing on your electrical system AND sounding just as good, which are you gonna buy?
> Of course all of this is dependant on the amp being reliable, having an excellent crossover section, etc. I have faith in Grizz on the x-over thing.
> I would like to see soft and hard clip indicators on a future version of the Phantom and/or the Black Ice amps. Very helpful for beginners and the lazy (me) on initial hookup.
> Looks like good stuff is happening with the P-P-I brand name once again!


We will have semi-twin Jeeps at SEMA in two separate booths. One can be SS and one can be PPI. Not sure yet. I am bringing back D-Tower and love those amps...


----------



## Jsracing

PPI_GUY said:


> With these new D class Phantom's soon to hit the market and at very affordable price points, I can see the end of A/B coming soon. Probabaly not in the 'entry-level' amps offered by manufacturers but, in the better, high-end stuff. I mean if you can buy a small footprint amp with the same power output of an amp 2 or even 3 times its size, while being less taxing on your electrical system AND sounding just as good, which are


Sadly there will always be the naysayers, just as there were, and still are to a much lesser degree, about ABs when they were getting popular. I'm sure I can get a test setup that will find performance differences between a god AB and good D, but I think D technology is god enough now that you can't hear the differences. There will be those who don't care whether the differences can be heard and just wants what's best regardless though.

I'm going to repeat my request that a future Phantom offering be made to look similar to the SS Reference amps, but in black or silver or gray.


----------



## Lanson

Grizz Archer said:


> We will have semi-twin Jeeps at SEMA in two separate booths. One can be SS and one can be PPI. Not sure yet. I am bringing back D-Tower and love those amps...



+1 on the D-Towers, I really like the ones I've used.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> Sadly there will always be the naysayers, just as there were, and still are to a much lesser degree, about ABs when they were getting popular. I'm sure I can get a test setup that will find performance differences between a god AB and good D, but I think D technology is god enough now that you can't hear the differences. There will be those who don't care whether the differences can be heard and just wants what's best regardless though.
> 
> I'm going to repeat my request that a future Phantom offering be made to look similar to the SS Reference amps, but in black or silver or gray.


For the PPI line or SS? We just might be in the works on another mini series and a micro series, but then again, we might not...


----------



## Jsracing

I don't care which line the SS Ref/Rub looking class D amps fall into...I will be interested. Ditto for the micro amps. Really looking forward to finding out more info on those. So far, I've only found the RF micro amp, but it's lacking in preamp and load capabilities.


----------



## Jsracing

Any update on the Phantom amps? The site still doesn't have updated pics of the actual amps (all models use the same pic).
Also, I want to confirm the actual output power with all channels driven on the P900.4 and P900.5. 145W/ch is a LOT for the size of the P900.4, even for a Class D amp. That's double any of the competitors and the size is about the same as the JL XD and Arc XXD/XDi which are the smallest Class Ds.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> Any update on the Phantom amps? The site still doesn't have updated pics of the actual amps (all models use the same pic).
> Also, I want to confirm the actual output power with all channels driven on the P900.4 and P900.5. 145W/ch is a LOT for the size of the P900.4, even for a Class D amp. That's double any of the competitors and the size is about the same as the JL XD and Arc XXD/XDi which are the smallest Class Ds.


They are identical with exception that the logo badge got better. I will get pictures when I get back from my seminar in Brazil. If I am not mistaken at least 3 models just shipped and should be here in 3-4 weeks! And the last test report I saw from a 3rd party was still accurate...


----------



## ChrisB

PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Test Report: Precision Power P900.4 Amplifier


----------



## DS-21

^^^ Looks really good, with marginally more power on the bench than the Kenwood XR-4S (at least into 14.4V; don't know if the XR-4S is regulated or not) but a more flexible crossover setup and narrower form factor. 

BUT - did they grow an extra quarter-inch of width? That would, alas, take it out of the running for me.

Also, one oddity in the review: 280mV input for full power with gains maxed sounds low to me, not high. That is to say, it seems like it could reach full power driven off the headphone output of an iPod.


----------



## ZAKOH

1. What are the dimensions of the 4-channel Phantom?

2. Would the 4-channel amp need special cooling if driven hard? I have 110watt 4-ohm components up front and a 4-ohm 350watt subwoofer. I have had Class A/B amps shut down on me on a couple of hot Texas days when trying to blast some Linkin Park CDs at high volume. I don't know whether it's the case with all Class A/B amps when pushed to this extent, or just me using cheap amplifier brands like Jensen or Hifonics. (Mind you, they have huge heatsinks but this summer temperature has been stupid hot on many days..)

3. I keep hearing that class A/B amplifiers have higher SQ than class D. How would the SQ of Phantom amplifiers compare to similarly priced MB Quart, Infinity, or Boston Acoustics class A/B amplifiers?


----------



## Grizz Archer

ZAKOH said:


> 1. What are the dimensions of the 4-channel Phantom?
> 
> 2. Would the 4-channel amp need special cooling if driven hard? I have 110watt 4-ohm components up front and a 4-ohm 350watt subwoofer. I have had Class A/B amps shut down on me on a couple of hot Texas days when trying to blast some Linkin Park CDs at high volume. I don't know whether it's the case with all Class A/B amps when pushed to this extent, or just me using cheap amplifier brands like Jensen or Hifonics. (Mind you, they have huge heatsinks but this summer temperature has been stupid hot on many days..)
> 
> 3. I keep hearing that class A/B amplifiers have higher SQ than class D. How would the SQ of Phantom amplifiers compare to similarly priced MB Quart, Infinity, or Boston Acoustics amplifiers?


Just thought I would offer up the 3rd party testing of the Phantom P900.4 for you when you get ready to compare...

At 14.4V and 1%THD:
4x145 at 4ohms - 49 amps of current
4x219 at 2ohms - 84 amps of current

Ground Isolation - >1 MOhm
75 Degrees Celsius at Audio Outputs
Average Rail Voltage - 42V
Time to Thermal Shutdown with Constant Minimum Load - 26 minutes
Damping Factor at 100Hz - 114
S/N Ratio at mid input level setting in dB, A-weighted - 102dB
Separation @ 1kHz - 32dB


----------



## ZAKOH

Grizz Archer said:


> Just thought I would offer up the 3rd party testing of the Phantom P900.4 for you when you get ready to compare...
> 
> At 14.4V and 1%THD:
> 4x145 at 4ohms - 49 amps of current
> 4x219 at 2ohms - 84 amps of current
> 
> Ground Isolation - >1 MOhm
> 75 Degrees Celsius at Audio Outputs
> Average Rail Voltage - 42V
> *Time to Thermal Shutdown with Constant Minimum Load - 26 minutes*
> Damping Factor at 100Hz - 114
> S/N Ratio at mid input level setting in dB, A-weighted - 102dB
> *Separation @ 1kHz - 32dB*


Can someone explain what the parts in bold mean? Thanks.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Woofers Etc now have the Phantom series in stock.

Amplifiers


----------



## wdemetrius1

I posted this question in another thread and I'll post it here too:

Grizz, do you have any updates on the Black Ice line?


----------



## joselmartinez

I've been following the BLAC ICE seires since february, but no luck whe to buy, now a few days ago I found this Precision Power BK800.4 Black Ice 130 RMS x 4 @ 4 Ohms 4-channel Class A/B Amplifier, my question, this is the only online site that offers this amps or there are any other where I can purchase?,

thanks.


----------



## bfrance

Grizz Archer said:


> Just thought I would offer up the 3rd party testing of the Phantom P900.4 for you when you get ready to compare...
> 
> At 14.4V and 1%THD:
> 4x145 at 4ohms - 49 amps of current
> 4x219 at 2ohms - 84 amps of current
> 
> Ground Isolation - >1 MOhm
> 75 Degrees Celsius at Audio Outputs
> Average Rail Voltage - 42V
> Time to Thermal Shutdown with Constant Minimum Load - 26 minutes
> Damping Factor at 100Hz - 114
> S/N Ratio at mid input level setting in dB, A-weighted - 102dB
> Separation @ 1kHz - 32dB



Grizz,

Any timeline on when the 5 channel is going to hit the market? 

Also, do you have a list of authorized online dealers? No local shops in my area carry PPI and longer and I'm really interested in this series of amp! 

Thanks,

-Ben France


----------



## Grizz Archer

bfrance said:


> Grizz,
> 
> Any timeline on when the 5 channel is going to hit the market?
> 
> Also, do you have a list of authorized online dealers? No local shops in my area carry PPI and longer and I'm really interested in this series of amp!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ben France


I just asked for you and was told possibly in October. But with "car audio time" accounted for, I am guessing November or December... I'll have to look and see who is authorized online. We typically only have one for SS and one for PPI...


----------



## Jsracing

ZAKOH said:


> Can someone explain what the parts in bold mean? Thanks.


The thermal shutdown sounds like if the amp is driving max power into 2ohm load, it would thermally shut down in 26 minutes.

For the separation, thats channel separation...or crosstalk...or how much of the other channels signal gets injected into the one youre listening to. While 32dBc is quite a bit lower than other amps, you won't be able to hear the injected signal at 32dB down.

Looks like these are rated right at their performance levels. Damn good power. Hoping to try out the 4- or 5-channel soon. I'm thinking to replace my zapco comp amp with one to get more power, more channels, and less heat. But I do love the zapco.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Jsracing said:


> The thermal shutdown sounds like if the amp is driving max power into 2ohm load, it would thermally shut down in 26 minutes.
> 
> For the separation, thats channel separation...or crosstalk...or how much of the other channels signal gets injected into the one youre listening to. While 32dBc is quite a bit lower than other amps, you won't be able to hear the injected signal at 32dB down.
> 
> Looks like these are rated right at their performance levels. Damn good power. Hoping to try out the 4- or 5-channel soon. I'm thinking to replace my zapco comp amp with one to get more power, more channels, and less heat. But I do love the zapco.


Correct. Note that the thermal testing is done with a purely resistive and NON-REACTIVE load of dummy resistors, not speakers which is very tough on an amplifier. Alot of amplifiers from various manufacturers may thermal at 8-10 minutes, but this is fine with reactive speakers in a typical scenario where music is being played in a vehicle... 

As for the separation, by comparison the PPI Phantom P900.4 is rated at 4x145 as is the Soundstream REF4.920. But the SS amp separation is over double the PPI, due to being a high end class a/b amp, but at the cost that is also double...


----------



## bfrance

Grizz Archer said:


> I just asked for you and was told possibly in October. But with "car audio time" accounted for, I am guessing November or December... I'll have to look and see who is authorized online. We typically only have one for SS and one for PPI...


Grizz,

Thanks for looking into the timeline. Looks like maybe I'll pick up a 900.4 to get me up and running and hold off until the 5 channel hits the market for the rest then.

Any word on an authorized online seller for these?

-Ben


----------



## subwoofery

dakine said:


> I thought they went out of business?


Never went out of business... Just made crappy products for a while  
Epsilon now owns it 

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

bfrance said:


> Grizz,
> 
> Thanks for looking into the timeline. Looks like maybe I'll pick up a 900.4 to get me up and running and hold off until the 5 channel hits the market for the rest then.
> 
> Any word on an authorized online seller for these?
> 
> -Ben


Shoot me an email...


----------



## bfrance

Grizz Archer said:


> Shoot me an email...


e-mail sent. 

-Ben


----------



## ZAKOH

Jsracing said:


> For the separation, thats channel separation...or crosstalk...or how much of the other channels signal gets injected into the one youre listening to. While 32dBc is quite a bit lower than other amps, you won't be able to hear the injected signal at 32dB down.
> 
> Looks like these are rated right at their performance levels. Damn good power. Hoping to try out the 4- or 5-channel soon. I'm thinking to replace my zapco comp amp with one to get more power, more channels, and less heat. But I do love the zapco.


I am still a little confused about this concept. Does this mean that at 32dB volume level, there is 100% channel separation, but at higher volume, there will be some crosstalk? I wonder how this affects SQ. A lot of of A/B class amps, even not particularly expensive ones, claim >80dB stereo separation.


----------



## Jsracing

It can be difficult to grasp decibels. To put it more simply by use of numbers, if channel A were producing 100W of power (that's painfully loud at certain frequencies btw), only 63mW (0.063W) of that signal from channel A is getting injected into channel B, which itself is producing 100W of power. So while its not as good as most other amps, you still won't hear it. Better specs and performance is always good, but when out comes down to where your money goes, spend it on parameters that you will hear. Many forget about the real world meaning of these specs when shopping and comparing.


----------



## ZAKOH

Jsracing said:


> It can be difficult to grasp decibels. To put it more simply by use of numbers, if channel A were producing 100W of power (that's painfully loud at certain frequencies btw), only 63mW (0.063W) of that signal from channel A is getting injected into channel B, which itself is producing 100W of power. So while its not as good as most other amps, you still won't hear it. Better specs and performance is always good, but when out comes down to where your money goes, spend it on parameters that you will hear. Many forget about the real world meaning of these specs when shopping and comparing.


Well, then I'll assume that SQ is decent then. My only remaining source of concern is the heat issues. I would like to bridge rear channels to drive a subwoofer. I don't run SPL/low sensitivity subs, but it would be nice to know that when I play a bass heavy track, esp on a hot day, that this amplifier will not go into thermal shutdown after 10-15 minutes. The small size of the amp heat sink kind of worries me right now..


----------



## Jsracing

This is NOT an A/B amp. A class D by design is much more efficient. My JL 5 channel bridged on the front and driving a2 ohm sub for a total of 700W max on a hot day running for 2hrs straight gets just warm. Heat should not be a problem even at low impedance loads.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Just noticed that the phantom series seems very similar in size and looks to the Polk Audio PA D4000.4 

PPI 6.5"w x 2"h 9.25" 
145 x 4









POLK 6-3/4"w x 1-13/16"H x 10-13/16"
125 x 4









size output xovers are all very very close.
They also have the same 2 channel, mono and 5 channel amps. Seems safe to say that these are pretty much clones of one an other. Sonic has some of these in stock.


----------



## envisionelec

AAAAAAA said:


> Just noticed that the phantom series seems very similar in size and looks to the Polk Audio PA D4000.4
> 
> PPI 6.5"w x 2"h 9.25"
> 145 x 4
> 
> 
> POLK 6-3/4"w x 1-13/16"H x 10-13/16"
> 125 x 4
> 
> 
> size output xovers are all very very close.
> They also have the same 2 channel, mono and 5 channel amps. Seems safe to say that these are pretty much clones of one an other. Sonic has some of these in stock.


Good eye, but in all fairness; a similar input board does not a similar amp make. 

But it probably points to the same contract OEM.


----------



## AAAAAAA

How different could they be for the end user?


----------



## envisionelec

Jsracing said:


> It can be difficult to grasp decibels. To put it more simply by use of numbers, if channel A were producing 100W of power (that's painfully loud at certain frequencies btw), only 63mW (0.063W) of that signal from channel A is getting injected into channel B, which itself is producing 100W of power. So while its not as good as most other amps, you still won't hear it. Better specs and performance is always good, but when out comes down to where your money goes, spend it on parameters that you will hear. Many forget about the real world meaning of these specs when shopping and comparing.


There are some serious issues with a -32dB crosstalk noise spec at 1kHz. You can be assured that noise rises at a rate of about 6dB per octave, which puts that spec at just -8dBv at 16kHz. The spec is level _independent_ because of the geometry of the parasitic capacitive components of the layout (traces, noisy components), so the level isn't affected by signal strength.

Don't try to justify their actions; It's reprehensible to try to and pass this off as a high quality component.


----------



## envisionelec

AAAAAAA said:


> How different could they be for the end user?


There isn't an answer to this question that would give any further information.


----------



## AAAAAAA

envisionelec said:


> There isn't an answer to this question that would give any further information.


Yeah it's a can of worms... pointless of me to ask really.

We can either leave the benefit of the doubt or we can go by all past instences and say they should be pretty near identical.

We can tell that one of them is mounted upside down.

To me these seem like great amps and would beleive the PA is most likely slightly underated VS the PPI that is right on the money. even if there were a 20 or so watt disparity this is inaudible.


----------



## bfrance

Grizz,

Quick question on the 900.4. Will 2 channels of it bridged run efficiently as a sub amp? I notice that the built-in crossover on the amp is either bypass, high pass, or bandpass, but no low-pass option. I've got an active HU, so I have low-pass options that way, but I wasn't sure if there was anything in the design of the amp that made it not a good idea.

Thanks,

-Ben


----------



## ZAKOH

I am thinking of bi-amping a set of HAT Imagine i6-2 speakers. I also need a subwoofer channel.

Would the P5.900 5-channel Phantom be able to power the Imagines woofers sufficiently well without briding?

Another possibility is to buy a P4.900, with two channels powering the imagines woofers, and the rear channels bridged for the sub. In this case, however, the tweeters will have to run on head unit power, and I am not quite sure if that's enough..


----------



## subwoofery

ZAKOH said:


> I am thinking of bi-amping a set of HAT Imagine i6-2 speakers. I also need a subwoofer channel.
> 
> Would the P5.900 5-channel Phantom be able to power the Imagines woofers sufficiently well without briding?
> 
> Another possibility is to buy a P4.900, with two channels powering the imagines woofers, and the rear channels bridged for the sub. In this case, however, the tweeters will have to run on head unit power, and I am not quite sure if that's enough..


The Imagine line can be powered off the HU so yes... It will be enough. 
Now I don't know how loud you like to turn your system up... More power for less clipping 

Kelvin


----------



## JAX

anyone actually using one yet?


----------



## bfrance

JAX said:


> anyone actually using one yet?


My question too.

-Ben


----------



## Grizz Archer

bfrance said:


> Grizz,
> 
> Quick question on the 900.4. Will 2 channels of it bridged run efficiently as a sub amp? I notice that the built-in crossover on the amp is either bypass, high pass, or bandpass, but no low-pass option. I've got an active HU, so I have low-pass options that way, but I wasn't sure if there was anything in the design of the amp that made it not a good idea.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ben


Got a friend running a 900.4 to the 3-way components and a pair of 8" and it works great...


----------



## Wy2quiet

I received mine (900.4) last night via WoofersEtc (I am in Canada). It replaced a good quality A/B amp (Concept hp135.2). 

There is definetely a difference. I didn't believe amps sounded different, but this sounds warmer, much less harsh, and when loud has a great ability to still discern the instruments instead of compressing them together. I don't know if it is the 10w greater output over the other amp - I don't even care if it is in my head - it sounds great to me.

Its also half the size of my 2 channel which put out the same, and this is a 4 channel - extremely impressed.


----------



## JAX

Wy2quiet said:


> I received mine (900.4) last night via WoofersEtc (I am in Canada). It replaced a good quality A/B amp (Concept hp135.2).
> 
> There is definetely a difference. I didn't believe amps sounded different, but this sounds warmer, much less harsh, and when loud has a great ability to still discern the instruments instead of compressing them together. I don't know if it is the 10w greater output over the other amp - I don't even care if it is in my head - it sounds great to me.
> 
> Its also half the size of my 2 channel which put out the same, and this is a 4 channel - extremely impressed.


cool. anyone else? 

if I get rid of all my old school soundstream Reference amps then this is the top of the list as replacement..couple of these would do nicely.


----------



## bfrance

Grizz Archer said:


> Got a friend running a 900.4 to the 3-way components and a pair of 8" and it works great...



Thanks for the input! Did you ever receive my e-mail on authorized online retailers for PPI? If not, could you pm them to me? Trying to find an authorized source for these if possible, but there are no dealers in my area.

Thanks again,

-BenFrance


----------



## bfrance

Grizz, or anyone else who might know:

Is the 900.5 released yet? I've seen it listed at a couple of online retailers, but the pics they show are of the 900.4.

Thanks,

-Ben


----------



## PPI_GUY

Ben, I don't think it's out yet but, it should be very close to shipping. Grizz can answer this more accurately. I'm waiting on them as well!


----------



## RMAT

Is this legit?

P900.5 900w 5-Channel Phantom Class D Series Amplifier - PrecisionPowerOnlineStore.com 814-201-2456


----------



## hiphen

Put a 900.4 in the wifes car. So far I am quite impressed Ill post more when I get a chance to really listen to it. Only complaint is the access to screw down the wires is a little small.


----------



## wdemetrius1

^^

Looking forward to your review.


----------



## onuxis

Looking for the best deal on 

2ea Phantom P900.4's
1ea Phantom P1000.1


millionbuy.com have the .4's for $230 and the .1's for $210 free shipping no tax.

Are those the best prices so far?

FREE SHIPPING $229.95 PRECISION POWER P900.4 4-Channel 900W Phantom Class D Amplifier

FREE SHIPPING $209.95 PRECISION POWER P1000.1 1-Channel 1000W Phantom Mono Class D Amplifier


----------



## subwoofery

onuxis said:


> Looking for the best deal on
> 
> 2ea Phantom P900.4's
> 1ea Phantom P1000.1
> 
> 
> millionbuy.com have the .4's for $230 and the .1's for $210 free shipping no tax.
> 
> Are those the best prices so far?
> 
> FREE SHIPPING $229.95 PRECISION POWER P900.4 4-Channel 900W Phantom Class D Amplifier
> 
> FREE SHIPPING $209.95 PRECISION POWER P1000.1 1-Channel 1000W Phantom Mono Class D Amplifier


Not authorized? Yes! 

Kelvin


----------



## onuxis

subwoofery said:


> Not authorized? Yes!
> 
> Kelvin


Is PPI one of those companies that only warranty their products if bought through an authorized dealer? I'm looking for warranty info on the site just not having any luck.

This day in age I'm looking for the best deal. Might sound harsh but I'm not interested in paying a markup just because.


----------



## subwoofery

onuxis said:


> *Is PPI one of those companies that only warranty their products if bought through an authorized dealer?* I'm looking for warranty info on the site just not having any luck.
> 
> This day in age I'm looking for the best deal. Might sound harsh but I'm not interested in paying a markup just because.


If I had to guess... Yes, I believe so. 

Kelvin


----------



## JAX

onuxis said:


> Is PPI one of those companies that only warranty their products if bought through an authorized dealer? I'm looking for warranty info on the site just not having any luck.
> 
> This day in age I'm looking for the best deal. Might sound harsh but I'm not interested in paying a markup just because.


Get it where you want and get a square trade warranty for it. 

I don't know if your going to get a newly released product any cheaper than what you found. 

I am shocked how cheap some of these products retail compared to the past. 

When I hear someone say you get what you pay for I don't agree but I do wonder.


----------



## Darth SQ

I know what you mean.
Some of these amps are going for only double of some of my repair bills for my Arts.

Question is, will they sound as sweet? 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## donnyblaze1

Anybody get one of the 5-channels yet? I'm really curious to hear a report!


----------



## onuxis

Found Millionbuy.com on ebay 99.3% with almost 79k feedbacks and they are stating they are a authorized precision power dealer. 

I've sent an email to PPI inquiring about the company, but haven’t heard anything yet.

I did the make an offer, lets see if I can pickup two P900.4's for 200ea.

PRECISION POWER P900.4 PPI 4-Channel Amp 900W Phantom Class D Amplifier | eBay


----------



## onebluec5

onuxis said:


> Found Millionbuy.com on ebay 99.3% with almost 79k feedbacks and they are stating they are a authorized precision power dealer.
> 
> I've sent an email to PPI inquiring about the company, but haven’t heard anything yet.
> 
> I did the make an offer, lets see if I can pickup two P900.4's for 200ea.
> 
> PRECISION POWER P900.4 PPI 4-Channel Amp 900W Phantom Class D Amplifier | eBay



That's a lot of amp for the money! Let me know how it goes.


----------



## onuxis

Alrighty,

Had to walk the price up on the "Make an Offer" till they accepted.

Purchased 
2ea. PPI Phantom 900.4's for $210 each
1ea. PPI Phantom 1000.1 for $190

Free ground shipping and no tax.


----------



## alabama_lowlife

Whoa! Well, that pretty much does it, I guess I'm gonna have to get one.


----------



## gokiburi

onuxis said:


> Alrighty,
> 
> Had to walk the price up on the "Make an Offer" till they accepted.


Thanks for the tip. Pulled the trigger on this deal as well.


----------



## JAX

So has anyone installed one ?


----------



## ZAKOH

There is someone on a different thread who has already installed one.

I personally, can't make up my mind between the 5-channel PPI Phantom vs 4-channel PPI with a small tweeter amp. 5-channel is most convenient to install, but I am not sure yet if 70watt RMS is enough to drive my mids.


----------



## fire_mike

I just ordered the 900.4, and I'm pretty excited about it. I'll chime in here once I get it installed.


----------



## Grizz Archer

hiphen said:


> Put a 900.4 in the wifes car. So far I am quite impressed Ill post more when I get a chance to really listen to it. Only complaint is the access to screw down the wires is a little small.


FYI, The opening is plenty for a screwdriver, but the tooling was a bit off. The second shipment moves the terminals out 3mm further. We needed them badly for sales demand so we let them go so we would not have to wait 2 more months. It was worth it, but I just wanted to let everybody know the deal...

Thanx for your business!


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> FYI, The opening is plenty for a screwdriver, but the tooling was a bit off. The second shipment moves the terminals out 3mm further. We needed them badly for sales demand so we let them go so we would not have to wait 2 more months. It was worth it, but I just wanted to let everybody know the deal...
> 
> Thanx for your business!


Grizz,
Aren't you supposed to be at SEMA?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## hiphen

Grizz Archer said:


> FYI, The opening is plenty for a screwdriver, but the tooling was a bit off. The second shipment moves the terminals out 3mm further. We needed them badly for sales demand so we let them go so we would not have to wait 2 more months. It was worth it, but I just wanted to let everybody know the deal...
> 
> Thanx for your business!


Yea I guess I worded that wrong. The screwdriver was at to much of an angle to get a really good grip. A tad smaller screwdriver would have helped me as well. That 3mm will fix the problem!!


----------



## durwood

Grizz Archer said:


> FYI, The opening is plenty for a screwdriver, but the tooling was a bit off. The second shipment moves the terminals out 3mm further. We needed them badly for sales demand so we let them go so we would not have to wait 2 more months. It was worth it, but I just wanted to let everybody know the deal...
> 
> Thanx for your business!



What I found even more annoying was the mounting holes. A normal sized screw won't fit, and the screws supplied have a small head which could strip and they only protrude showing 2-3 threads which is not enough to really keep it in place. I had to use longer normal sized screws and live with the mounting marks it creates in the holes.

I also would have like a bit more sensitivity in the low scale on the gain as mentioned in the pasmag review. 

Other then those basic oversights, seems to work fine.


----------



## hiphen

durwood said:


> What I found even more annoying was the mounting holes. A normal sized screw won't fit, and the screws supplied have a small head which could strip and they only protrude showing 2-3 threads which is not enough to really keep it in place. I had to use longer normal sized screws and live with the mounting marks it creates in the holes.
> 
> I also would have like a bit more sensitivity in the low scale on the gain as mentioned in the pasmag review.
> 
> Other then those basic oversights, seems to work fine.


I noticed that as well. Seems like the hole tapered down from the top. I used the screw provided and the amp is still in place after a few weeks but it has me worried.


----------



## PPI_GUY

RMAT said:


> Is this legit?
> 
> P900.5 900w 5-Channel Phantom Class D Series Amplifier - PrecisionPowerOnlineStore.com 814-201-2456


I would be very wary of that website. A few weeks ago it had a different name and I am 99% certain they aren't affiliated with Precision Power. I did a 'reverse lookup' on that number and it comes back as belonging to a Chris Harkless in Altoona, Pa. 
Under another name, his site has been claiming to have P900.5 for more than a month but, seeing as how it is unavailable anywhere else (yet), I doubt they actually have it. 
Just seems rather shady to me.


----------



## DAT

PPI_GUY said:


> I would be very wary of that website. A few weeks ago it had a different name and I am 99% certain they aren't affiliated with Precision Power. I did a 'reverse lookup' on that number and it comes back as belonging to a Chris Harkless in Altoona, Pa.
> Under another name, his site has been claiming to have P900.5 for more than a month but, seeing as how it is unavailable anywhere else (yet), I doubt they actually have it.
> Just seems rather shady to me.



Yeah, I would be safe and order from a local or authorized online dealer. They are not out, or that is what i was told this morning talking to my Rep.


----------



## PPI_GUY

DAT said:


> Yeah, I would be safe and order from a local or authorized online dealer. They are not out, or that is what i was told this morning talking to my Rep.


Just did alittle more research and that website was called SST Kustomz only a few weeks ago. He also has a "SoundStream online store" and the phone # is the same. Looks REALLY suspicious at best.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz,
> Aren't you supposed to be at SEMA?
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I was!


----------



## Grizz Archer

durwood said:


> What I found even more annoying was the mounting holes. A normal sized screw won't fit, and the screws supplied have a small head which could strip and they only protrude showing 2-3 threads which is not enough to really keep it in place. I had to use longer normal sized screws and live with the mounting marks it creates in the holes.
> 
> I also would have like a bit more sensitivity in the low scale on the gain as mentioned in the pasmag review.
> 
> Other then those basic oversights, seems to work fine.


I hear ya on the screws. The supplied ones work without problems, but I ground down the flange on some stainless steel screws for my install...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> I would be very wary of that website. A few weeks ago it had a different name and I am 99% certain they aren't affiliated with Precision Power. I did a 'reverse lookup' on that number and it comes back as belonging to a Chris Harkless in Altoona, Pa.
> Under another name, his site has been claiming to have P900.5 for more than a month but, seeing as how it is unavailable anywhere else (yet), I doubt they actually have it.
> Just seems rather shady to me.


Confirmed - if I do not have one, NOBODY does... Thanx for the tip bro!


----------



## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> On the flagship lines, that may be true. On the similarly priced budget lines per brand, I wouldn't be shocked if they were relatively the same with a different look to them.


Open them up and look at them... Just because a few amps all have torroids, transistors and capacitors, that does not mean they are the same...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> I would be very wary of that website. A few weeks ago it had a different name and I am 99% certain they aren't affiliated with Precision Power. I did a 'reverse lookup' on that number and it comes back as belonging to a Chris Harkless in Altoona, Pa.
> Under another name, his site has been claiming to have P900.5 for more than a month but, seeing as how it is unavailable anywhere else (yet), I doubt they actually have it.
> Just seems rather shady to me.


Did some research. Apparently he is an authorized dealer and more importantly, he has been reported to keep MAP pricing or even a bit higher. We looked at a few skus and found this to be true. So if he keeps this up then I have his back. If he drops below MAP, then I get the boogie man...


----------



## rockytophigh

That Jeep is simply sick!


----------



## Grizz Archer

jimmy2345 said:


> PPI isnt what it was back in the day. In my opinion, they arent any better today than any of the other junk brands.


I would expect a comment like that from you. Please tell us what experience you have with the new products and what facts you have based you opinions on. Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Grizz Archer said:


> I would expect a comment like that from you. Please tell us what experience you have with the new products and what facts you have based you opinions on. Inquiring minds want to know...


Accidentally popped into the wrong part of the thread. My bad...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rockytophigh said:


> That Jeep is simply sick!


Thanx man! I threw together a quicky system with PPI Pro Audio stage and fill, Phantom amps (3), and Art SQ 8" subs (7) along with a new source unit and my MS-8. But it is not tuned yet. Nothing to brag about until I know what it can do, and even then, I am not a bragger...


----------



## Babs

Grizz Archer said:


> Thanx man! I threw together a quicky system with PPI Pro Audio stage and fill, Phantom amps (3), and Art SQ 8" subs (7) along with a new source unit and my MS-8. But it is not tuned yet. Nothing to brag about until I know what it can do, and even then, I am not a bragger...


Pic's (of the quicky system) or it didn't happen. 
And +1 that is a bad jeep!

Also... Nice flat top on these Phantom amps, for flushed false floor possibilities.. Should I not end up going JL XD or HD. Clean is in, as well as small.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> Pic's (of the quicky system) or it didn't happen.
> And +1 that is a bad jeep!
> 
> Also... Nice flat top on these Phantom amps, for flushed false floor possibilities.. Should I not end up going JL XD or HD. Clean is in, as well as small.


My goals is to take all 91 pics of every single mod/product on the jeep this weekend and put it on our website under the team section (due to popular demand).

So, do you love Oktoberfest with the perfect German breasts and the perfect German beer, or is the beer not important? lol


----------



## Babs

The beer is totally inconsequential, but when such perfection is found together, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Only thing I'd add to make that one better would be the perfect beer-boiled then grilled brat', add sauerkraut+mustard. Is there really anything further you'd need in life?

So I gotta read I guess (just found out about these amps a couple days ago) how they compare to JL XD's. Their price-point brings quite the delimna.. If they bring it in terms of SQ, noise-level, power, etc., I'm in a quandry now. Granted the rest of the system is pretty budget (vifa tweets, TB mids, 'oooold but nice Kicker Comp sub.. truly budget gear), with MS-8 brain.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> The beer is totally inconsequential, but when such perfection is found together, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Only thing I'd add to make that one better would be the perfect beer-boiled then grilled brat', add sauerkraut+mustard. Is there really anything further you'd need in life?
> 
> So I gotta read I guess (just found out about these amps a couple days ago) how they compare to JL XD's. Their price-point brings quite the delimna.. If they bring it in terms of SQ, noise-level, power, etc., I'm in a quandry now. Granted the rest of the system is pretty budget (vifa tweets, TB mids, 'oooold but nice Kicker Comp sub.. truly budget gear), with MS-8 brain.


LOL You're funny but brilliant. Hence why I married a full-blooded German and I go there every year for family and the aforementioned attributes!

I have not tuned my system with the pro audio speakers, but surely your home drivers could sound even better. I love them so far, but again, I need to do more tuning with my MS-8...


----------



## Babs

Thanks. I try.  I should edit with a caveat that I have been called absolutely ignorant by unnamed (which is why I try to stay out of the political threads).

I married an Italian from Miami... LOL!! Someday she'll take her German/Swedish/Scottish mutt to Roma hopefully. But equally as cool as german chicks I think but feisty (understatement for the day).

Tuning and MS-8 in the same sentence? hehehe  Ok, I guess it could happen, there is the 1/3 octave eq. LOL! I imagine soon there will be some reviews from "ears" that have actually heard the phantoms.. I may get brave, at least with the 1000.1 since I do have a nostalgic nice old Eclipse 3640 that wants to be used. 5-channel died so I'm in the hunt a bit but was originally considering stepping up.. XD or HD.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> Thanks. I try.
> 
> I married an Italian from Miami... LOL!! Someday she'll take her German/Swedish/Scottish mutt to Roma hopefully. But equally as cool as german chicks I think but feisty (understatement for the day).
> 
> Tuning and MS-8 in the same sentence? hehehe  Ok, I guess it could happen, there is the 1/3 octave eq. LOL! I imagine soon there will be some reviews from "ears" that have actually heard the phantoms.. I may get brave, at least with the 1000.1 since I do have a nostalgic nice old Eclipse 3640 that wants to be used. 5-channel died so I'm in the hunt a bit but was originally considering stepping up.. XD or HD.


Right on! Feisty for sure. Germans tend to be conservative for the most part...

I have all my gains 100% off with a fully active system, so I still need to balance gains and work a little more with placement...


----------



## Babs

Grizz Archer said:


> Right on! Feisty for sure. Germans tend to be conservative for the most part...
> 
> I have all my gains 100% off with a fully active system, so I still need to balance gains and work a little more with placement...


Speaking of.. That's about the only single criticism that I've read so far.. the gains. I'll be interested how Phantom gains play with the MS-8. Coinky-dink that you're running one. I imagine it's a non-issue but eh, anything interesting. 

Trick with my system is running active with varying impedence drivers (6ohm D26NC05tweets, 8ohm tang band W6-789E relatively high-efficiency 90+db mids). Makes gains settings then auto-calibration interesting.. Though the results have been pretty good with the old ZX700.5 to be replaced, though maybe a bit enemic with a little hiss and grain.

But enough power, with the phantoms, in case I get crazy and put in those RK6 components on the shelf and get all SPLish. LOL  Nice to have headroom.. joking.. I'm trying to go for SQ but with good dynamics.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> Speaking of.. That's about the only single criticism that I've read so far.. the gains. I'll be interested how Phantom gains play with the MS-8. Coinky-dink that you're running one. I imagine it's a non-issue but eh, anything interesting.
> 
> Trick with my system is running active with varying impedence drivers (6ohm D26NC05tweets, 8ohm tang band W6-789E relatively high-efficiency 90+db mids). Makes gains settings then auto-calibration interesting.. Though the results have been pretty good with the old ZX700.5 to be replaced, though maybe a bit enemic with a little hiss and grain.
> 
> But enough power, with the phantoms, in case I get crazy and put in those RK6 components on the shelf and get all SPLish. LOL  Nice to have headroom.. joking.. I'm trying to go for SQ but with good dynamics.


What a novel idea - an SQ system that dubs as an SPL system! lol Yeah, we all want that. Your varying impedances will not matter. You obviously must have level matched everything to some point. I start with getting xovers right and then level latch actively on the amps, through the MS-8. Then readjust xovers, then more adjusting until I get it right. Once I get it as flat as possible with proper xover point, then I proceed to tuning which is fairly easy with the MS-8 if you are not competing. Only the fine tuning is a bit of a bear and takes some real time...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> I was!


WOW!

I am really, REALLY likin' the look of the Rubicon!

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> WOW!
> 
> I am really, REALLY likin' the look of the Rubicon!
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Thanx man. I have a bazillion PMS requesting photos, but as I said, the install was a quicky and nothing impressive. Plus, this is a jeep, not an IQC/SQC vehicle. Don't want people to think I do not give a crap, ya know? I am working on new adjustable tweeter mounts and want to relocate my amplifiers to my secondary interior roll cage... That would be badass and worth showing...


----------



## Babs

In case it hasn't yet been linked or seen here.. Found this, by Gary who also did the PAS write-up. Was hoping he'd speak more about how she sounds but ok.. Some nice shots of the product though. In the PAS review article he mentioned more thoughts on performance later in "his blog", but I've found no such "blog".


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> In case it hasn't yet been linked or seen here.. Found this, by Gary who also did the PAS write-up. Was hoping he'd speak more about how she sounds but ok.. Some nice shots of the product though. In the PAS review article he mentioned more thoughts on performance later in "his blog", but I've found no such "blog".


Anybody that knows Gary, knows that while he is a very cool cat, he is not easy to please. I was a bit worried about what he would honestly think about fullrange Class D amplifiers, but he dug it...


----------



## trumpet

Babs said:


> In the PAS review article he mentioned more thoughts on performance later in "his blog", but I've found no such "blog".


A couple of days ago I spent about 60 seconds trying to find his blog. I tried checking the PAS staff listing and he's not in there. Dunno if this was a teaser for a "coming soon" blog or what.


----------



## gokiburi

Hey, Grizz, your "outreach" effort on this forum is the main reason I bought the P900.4. I have been a little leery of the old name-new owner outfits, but your obvious commitment to the enthusiasts is apparent. I am looking forward to installing my new Phantom amp this weekend. Thanks for taking the time to give us your news and views.


----------



## Babs

Yeah I made the mistake of trying to find whatever ellusive blog he was referring to as well. I'll never get those minutes back. :/

Indeed.. Let's read more of what Gary had to say about the P900.4 if he did a more in depth listen. The article teases the reader in thinking he was going to ellaborate more. Inquirin' minds wanna know.  Granted what he "did" say was pretty nice though brief. You got that check off to him didn't ya Grizz? LOL!


----------



## Grizz Archer

gokiburi said:


> Hey, Grizz, your "outreach" effort on this forum is the main reason I bought the P900.4. I have been a little leery of the old name-new owner outfits, but your obvious commitment to the enthusiasts is apparent. I am looking forward to installing my new Phantom amp this weekend. Thanks for taking the time to give us your news and views.


No man, thank you. I appreciate everybody's reviews and ideas. As I have said before, I want to build for you guys. It does not matter what I want or the company wants. It matter what YOU GUYS want. This is the only forum I go on because I get the opportunity to learn what you guys like. Obviously I cannot make bazillion dollar perfect products that everybody will want to buy at whore prices, but I try to accommodate whenever possible. I totally understand what you mean by the new owner thing. Look at what Coleman did to Soundstream. He literally destroyed it. We looked at that as an opportunity to buy a great, nostalgic name and rebuild it to what it was but with a modern flare which includes entry level products. Just trying to do the same thing now with PPI. Only problem is that we bought it during a recession, but it is growing well. And I still have some more trick up y sleeve... 

I appreciate your input man...


----------



## Babs

Grizz Archer said:


> ...Only problem is that we bought it during a recession


Indian Motorcycles ran into that little issue as well.. Except they're selling premium-grade $34k+ versions of factory cruisers. Definitely a risk hoping for brand recognition with two hits 1) luxury item and 2) teensy tiny market even when everyone was on the harley bandwagon. Hopefully Polaris' muscle can help them ride the storm. Hate to see 'em fail again. Such beautiful bikes.

In 'luxury' consumer products, better-than-the-other-guy value in the right price-point, plus presence among your customers and potentials are two great tools in any industry. Good luck.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> Yeah I made the mistake of trying to find whatever ellusive blog he was referring to as well. I'll never get those minutes back. :/
> 
> Indeed.. Let's read more of what Gary had to say about the P900.4 if he did a more in depth listen. The article teases the reader in thinking he was going to ellaborate more. Inquirin' minds wanna know.  Granted what he "did" say was pretty nice though brief. You got that check off to him didn't ya Grizz? LOL!


Even if I was not as honest as the day is long, Gary would never take a check from anybody. Regardless of what brand and the test results, they are legit. I will always have Gary's back regardless of how surprising the results may be. Any surprise is solely based on either past experience or reputation, but Gary's results are always genuine, whether good or bad...


----------



## cvjoint

The Polks don't test as well. Looks like if it is the same board the components are better on the PPI:
PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Test Report: Polk Audio PA D4000.4 Amplifier

Here is the PPI, so you don't have to search back:

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/test-reports/1805-test-report-precision-power-p9004-amplifier-?q=ppi+p900.4

ppi looks cheaper to buy too.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Well the PPI is slightly and what would appear to be inaudibly better. But I wouldn't be ready to say it measures better then the ALL the polks, I would think that the differences are just normal differences between amplifiers of the samel "model". IE 2 identical PPI's won't measure exactly the same.

We have seen it with amps that come with birth sheets, one pdx5 will have 90 watts, the next will have 110.


----------



## DAT

Ever thing MONEY TALKS? Hmm What if you were friends with the reviewer? You can only trust a review as much as you want.

I have seen reviews on many car audio items from CSR, CS,CA&E, AS&P, sure they are great to read but and it shows some specs and testing, but you can not trust it 100%


I've tested the PPI's, never the POLK's , but i would like too! 

.


----------



## cvjoint

AAAAAAA said:


> Well the PPI is slightly and what would appear to be inaudibly better. But I wouldn't be ready to say it measures better then the ALL the polks, I would think that the differences are just normal differences between amplifiers of the samel "model". IE 2 identical PPI's won't measure exactly the same.
> 
> We have seen it with amps that come with birth sheets, one pdx5 will have 90 watts, the next will have 110.


Ok, say we wanted to rate amplifiers at .05% THD+n at 4 ohms instead of 1%. The PPI does 130w, while the Polk does 50w. That 's a huge difference. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the THD+N distribution looks very different in one amplifier versus the other. If they were truly the same I would expect the distribution to be the same at least. 

I agree that the comparison only stands between the 4 channel models.


----------



## cvjoint

DAT said:


> Ever thing MONEY TALKS? Hmm What if you were friends with the reviewer? You can only trust a review as much as you want.
> 
> I have seen reviews on many car audio items from CSR, CS,CA&E, AS&P, sure they are great to read but and it shows some specs and testing, but you can not trust it 100%
> 
> 
> I've tested the PPI's, never the POLK's , but i would like too!
> 
> .


All data can be fudged. Unless you do everything yourself and you are unbiased nothing is 100% bias free with certainty. 

From what I can tell I've seen data that looks really bad, like the Utopia BE line Klippel where the reviewers subjectively gave it a better score than they should have. The data itself looked pretty bad and CA mag still posted it. I keep that in mind and skip all the subjective ********. Generally I think if the tester is smart enough to get results he's not gonna fudge it. Science is often hand in hand with honesty, and I believe it's one of it's major tenets. The editor might come in and say drop this test, and speak nicely about it but the data that does make it is honest imo. Of course I can't guarantee it but that's my gut feeling. If you can't read raw data and read the story instead you are trully missing out on a lot of these tests, and the subjective and objective sometimes disagree.


----------



## hottcakes

well its officially fall and there are six weeks left. where are the source units with INGENIX?


----------



## alabama_lowlife

The thing I've been wondering is whether or not there would be any debate about them if the price was considerably higher? When I was a teenager in the mid 90's PPI was expensive. People are so used to getting what they pay for, particularly with electronics. When I see a great price on something I can't help but be sceptical.

But don't raise the price, there needs to be something out there that is actually worth more than you have to pay for it lol


----------



## AAAAAAA

cvjoint said:


> Ok, say we wanted to rate amplifiers at .05% THD+n at 4 ohms instead of 1%. The PPI does 130w, while the Polk does 50w...


And that's where people would start talking about "REAL" watts and how the polk amp is using 50 real watts and are way better then some other compagnies regular "watts".

It really doesn't matter at what level distortion -under hearing threshold- it makes it's power at.

Point remains though is that measure another polk and it might measure just like the PPI, and the next PPI might measure like the polk does. Production variations.


----------



## cvjoint

AAAAAAA said:


> And that's where people would start talking about "REAL" watts and how the polk amp is using 50 real watts and are way better then some other compagnies regular "watts".
> 
> It really doesn't matter at what level distortion -under hearing threshold- it makes it's power at.
> 
> Point remains though is that measure another polk and it might measure just like the PPI, and the next PPI might measure like the polk does. Production variations.


Except here I am rating them by the same measuring stick so to say. You can call that both in Polk watts or both in PPI watts. The key is that measuring both by the same criteria results look very different at .05 THD. The difference in distortion "pattern" is very large from what I can tell between the two. If these were production variations of the same board would you notice such different results? I'm not an amp buff, maybe you would. 

I can make a poor analogy, but maybe it will highlight my point. Car engines dyno differently as well. One Corvette engine could do 505hp as rated, while another Corvette can be at 520hp. However, and this is my point, the torque curve will look largely the same, just shifted a bit. I know I'm looking at the same engine's dyno by the way the torque curve looks, a near perfect shift. If I were to look at a small Honda motor with a turbocharger making 510hp I would know that dyno is of a different engine because the distribution is that different. 

When I look at these amplifier tests the distortion patters look very different. I understand 10w difference at 1%THD can be a production variation but the way that THD slopes by output is vastly different. The PPI is much more desirable. In fact I'd take the PPI if it made the same power but had that nicer distortion pattern. It's noticeably cleaner from 35w all the way to 150w.

Sadly I've never seen THD vs Watts for the same amplifier in a repeated sampling context. We could get an idea of whether distributions can be different for the same design.


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> Well the PPI is slightly and what would appear to be inaudibly better. But I wouldn't be ready to say it measures better then the ALL the polks, I would think that the differences are just normal differences between amplifiers of the samel "model". IE 2 identical PPI's won't measure exactly the same.
> 
> We have seen it with amps that come with birth sheets, one pdx5 will have 90 watts, the next will have 110.


True, but that is a huge swing. A few watts is one thing, but a big swing means low tolerance parts...


----------



## Grizz Archer

DAT said:


> Ever thing MONEY TALKS? Hmm What if you were friends with the reviewer? You can only trust a review as much as you want.
> 
> I have seen reviews on many car audio items from CSR, CS,CA&E, AS&P, sure they are great to read but and it shows some specs and testing, but you can not trust it 100%
> 
> 
> I've tested the PPI's, never the POLK's , but i would like too!
> 
> .


Hence my last statement. Back in the day when we actually had several American magazines, I would not doubt if reviews could have been detoured by monetary incentive. As for Gary? NOT A FREAKING CHANCE! Good or bad, he is a straight shooter. he has said a couple things that were not favorable to me in reviews, but they were legit. Nothing major, but true...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cvjoint said:


> Ok, say we wanted to rate amplifiers at .05% THD+n at 4 ohms instead of 1%. The PPI does 130w, while the Polk does 50w. That 's a huge difference. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the THD+N distribution looks very different in one amplifier versus the other. If they were truly the same I would expect the distribution to be the same at least.
> 
> I agree that the comparison only stands between the 4 channel models.


While your point is definitely in my favor, this is one of the reasons why some of this stuff gets way out of hand. You guys know me and I have no reservations in complimenting another company's product. Somehow I still remain unbiased after 28 years. Anyway, my point is that with .05% or using CEA standards is just a point to reference. The whole Richard Clark challenge about hearing the difference between a cheap amplifier and high end amp being impossible - nobody ever succeeded in this challenge. I could argue with myself from both sides all day long. I learned along time ago that nothing matters except what an individual hears. Ever sit in a car and use your hands to cup your ears to make them seem bigger? You can hear all kinds of **** you never heard otherwise. People with big ears are blessed! I have heard some of the best cars in the world and thought it was nice but not phenomenal. Likewise, I have heard mediocre product in a vehicle without equalization that sounded awesome. We are all different and will never be in agreement that one certain product is better than another. Testing is what a freaking computer hears, NOT US...


----------



## Grizz Archer

hottcakes said:


> well its officially fall and there are six weeks left. where are the source units with INGENIX?


Sorry we're late (Blame it on Apple!!!), but 12,000 unit are on the water now. The first shipment is Farenheit and Power Acoustik. The PPI and SS are different and are coming soon, but since they are not the same processing, they are not in this first shipment. I have a couple of the samples that I have been playing with a bit. Pretty sick! The screen is honestly the best I have ever seen, but I do not use video so it will be alot more valuable to others than myself...


----------



## Grizz Archer

alabama_lowlife said:


> The thing I've been wondering is whether or not there would be any debate about them if the price was considerably higher? When I was a teenager in the mid 90's PPI was expensive. People are so used to getting what they pay for, particularly with electronics. When I see a great price on something I can't help but be sceptical.
> 
> But don't raise the price, there needs to be something out there that is actually worth more than you have to pay for it lol


DUDE!!! I feel ya! I believe 100% that if the SS Ref amps and the PPI PC amps were 50% more, they would actually sell better. The owners wanted people to buy these amps, not just be like Human Reign that nobody could afford. But in my personal opinion, the perceived value just is not there. You and I are on the same wavelength with this. If the high end amps were 50% more or even double, they would still be worth it by old school standards. Consumers would perceive them as being much better to justify the price. Do you agree? And yet still, with the extremely affordable pricing for these amps, they do not fly out the door. Is it because they are still too expensive for the cheap asses that demand nirvana for nothing? Or is it truly because they are too inexpensive? Probably 1/2 and 1/2...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> And that's where people would start talking about "REAL" watts and how the polk amp is using 50 real watts and are way better then some other compagnies regular "watts".
> 
> It really doesn't matter at what level distortion -under hearing threshold- it makes it's power at.
> 
> Point remains though is that measure another polk and it might measure just like the PPI, and the next PPI might measure like the polk does. Production variations.


Good point. An Audio Precision testing apparatus does now know what true wattage versus "mini Asian wattage" is. So what is the solution? Nobody would trust a human even if they were totally unbiased, and they shouldn't, because he/she will hear differently than the rest of us. if we do not trust the Audio Precision, then what is left? To go actually audition the product for ourselves? What a novel idea...


----------



## trojan fan

Grizz Archer said:


> While your point is definitely in my favor, this is one of the reasons why some of this stuff gets way out of hand. You guys know me and I have no reservations in complimenting another company's product. Somehow I still remain unbiased after 28 years. Anyway, my point is that with .05% or using CEA standards is just a point to reference. The whole Richard Clark challenge about hearing the difference between a cheap amplifier and high end amp being impossible - nobody ever succeeded in this challenge. I could argue with myself from both sides all day long. I learned along time ago that nothing matters except what an individual hears. Ever sit in a car and use your hands to cup your ears to make them seem bigger? You can hear all kinds of **** you never heard otherwise. People with big ears are blessed! I have heard some of the best cars in the world and thought it was nice but not phenomenal. Likewise, I have heard mediocre product in a vehicle without equalization that sounded awesome. We are all different and will never be in agreement that one certain product is better than another. Testing is what a freaking computer hears, NOT US...


x2 exactly... You make some very good points


----------



## Grizz Archer

cvjoint said:


> Except here I am rating them by the same measuring stick so to say. You can call that both in Polk watts or both in PPI watts. The key is that measuring both by the same criteria results look very different at .05 THD. The difference in distortion "pattern" is very large from what I can tell between the two. If these were production variations of the same board would you notice such different results? I'm not an amp buff, maybe you would.
> 
> I can make a poor analogy, but maybe it will highlight my point. Car engines dyno differently as well. One Corvette engine could do 505hp as rated, while another Corvette can be at 520hp. However, and this is my point, the torque curve will look largely the same, just shifted a bit. I know I'm looking at the same engine's dyno by the way the torque curve looks, a near perfect shift. If I were to look at a small Honda motor with a turbocharger making 510hp I would know that dyno is of a different engine because the distribution is that different.
> 
> When I look at these amplifier tests the distortion patters look very different. I understand 10w difference at 1%THD can be a production variation but the way that THD slopes by output is vastly different. The PPI is much more desirable. In fact I'd take the PPI if it made the same power but had that nicer distortion pattern. It's noticeably cleaner from 35w all the way to 150w.
> 
> Sadly I've never seen THD vs Watts for the same amplifier in a repeated sampling context. We could get an idea of whether distributions can be different for the same design.


While I agree with you on varying results using the exact same testing protocol, this is one of those arguments that will never end. Polk guys will argue, PPI guys may agree, and other can go either way based off of what knowledge they have acquired. You proved to yourself what you feel and they are entitled to their own opinion. Gary tests everything the same, whether we like the results or not...


----------



## Babs

On the subject of any new PPI, SS or other head units coming or here:

Not to stray so much from topic, but here's my chance for feedback.. I highly suggest disclosing if possible SQ info such as dac's etc or why a head unit would be expected to sound good. 

If going head to head with the big boys in the head unit biz, state what it's got in terms of just pure audio sound quality and capability. Granted no one should be expecting Denon/Mac/Nakamichi/Clarion DRZ/P99 level SQ or copper chassis, dual-differential burr-browns, etc, but it's be nice to know that it should have features (internal amp shutoff or high-quality 24bit processing or iPod dac-bypass, or preamp components) etc that can show the head unit should at least sound as clean and solid as big head unit brand offerings in the same price-point (alpine, pioneer, clarion, etc). (In short... Overcome the perception of a cheap outsourced copy with bottom rung components.. Build brand acceptance by disclosure, like the new amps which I'm seriously digging).

I think there's a lot of folks that would think first thing.. Ok would this $399 or $799 PPI "SOUND" as good as this $399 Alpine or Pioneer double-din? I venture to say 98% of the aftermarket head-unit shoppers are after "better" SQ as a top #1 or top-3 benefit.

Just my humble feedback. Un-hijacking now.


----------



## trojan fan

When will the P900.5 be available?


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> On the subject of any new PPI, SS or other head units coming or here:
> 
> Not to stray so much from topic, but here's my chance for feedback.. I highly suggest disclosing if possible SQ info such as dac's etc or why a head unit would be expected to sound good.
> 
> If going head to head with the big boys in the head unit biz, state what it's got in terms of just pure audio sound quality and capability. Granted no one should be expecting Denon/Mac/Nakamichi/Clarion DRZ/P99 level SQ or copper chassis, dual-differential burr-browns, etc, but it's be nice to know that it should have features (internal amp shutoff or high-quality 24bit processing or iPod dac-bypass, or preamp components) etc that can show the head unit should at least sound as clean and solid as big head unit brand offerings in the same price-point (alpine, pioneer, clarion, etc). (In short... Overcome the perception of a cheap outsourced copy with bottom rung components.. Build brand acceptance by disclosure, like the new amps which I'm seriously digging).
> 
> I think there's a lot of folks that would think first thing.. Ok would this $399 or $799 PPI "SOUND" as good as this $399 Alpine or Pioneer double-din? I venture to say 98% of the aftermarket head-unit shoppers are after "better" SQ as a top #1 or top-3 benefit.
> 
> Just my humble feedback. Un-hijacking now.


Like amplifiers, video is not my forte. Do I dare even say that I do not give a crap about video? lol I just want something strong and sellable. The INGENIX headunits come in two levels with the higher being for PPI and SS only. They hit a pricepoint void that is going to be huge for us. Packed with features, these units will rival Japanese brands at a few, to several hundreds of dollars less. They have the highest quality screens available, built in nav, bluetooth, A2DP streaming and will MSRP at $1200. I know this is not the info you are looking for, but I will talk to the video guy and get some dirt for you guys. BTW, the SS and PPI do have copper chassis now that you mention it...


----------



## Grizz Archer

trojan fan said:


> When will the P900.5 be available?


Hell, I don't know!  If I had a dollar....

Let me go ask and see if I can get an eta. If I do not reply by Monday, please remind me...


----------



## Babs

Grizz Archer said:


> Like amplifiers, video is not my forte. Do I dare even say that I do not give a crap about video? lol I just want something strong and sellable. The INGENIX headunits come in two levels with the higher being for PPI and SS only. They hit a pricepoint void that is going to be huge for us. Packed with features, these units will rival Japanese brands at a few, to several hundreds of dollars less. They have the highest quality screens available, built in nav, bluetooth, A2DP streaming and will MSRP at $1200. I know this is not the info you are looking for, but I will talk to the video guy and get some dirt for you guys. BTW, the SS and PPI do have copper chassis now that you mention it...


Thanks.. Sounds cool and hope they sell like hotcakes. Video ain't my thang either. My concern is what it sends the amps. SQ. 

Granted I'm a weirdo.. The imagined head unit that would make me consider tearing into the dash after doling out the cash would be 2-din disc-less (no moving parts), USB/iPod only, pulling digitally - bypassing iPod's so-so internal D/A, preamp-only or can shut down internal power amp section, superb internal D/A, great preamp section, simple unmolested signal-path. No frills, no baloney just great output... Even if it had zero audio processing.. Even no EQ or crossovers. no junky car-audioey face, just clean interface ..I'm truly a weirdo, like I said.


----------



## AAAAAAA

cvjoint said:


> Except here I am rating them by the same measuring stick so to say.



But really you aren't. Speaking of analogies....

It's like if a girl is trying to find the biggest dick to fck and starts measuring them while flacid. Flacid doesn't tell much about how the real deal will be. Girls want it hard and that's where it counts. Same with amplifiers, we don't care about THD really as long as it is undetectable by the ear.



> Sadly I've never seen THD vs Watts for the same amplifier in a repeated sampling context. We could get an idea of whether distributions can be different for the same design.


I haven't either and I suppose this is where our debate shall end.


----------



## ZAKOH

Speaking of PC amps, a Russian magazine avtozvuk did a comparison of a bunch of 5 and 6-channel amps. They measured power, THD, SNR, and may other things.

Ground Zero GZTA5120X
Audison SR5
SoundStream STL6
Audio System X-ion
Alpine MRX-V60
Precision Power PC740.5

Precision power got most points, with Audison, Alpine, and SoundStream being close second. There were considerable differences in features though. SR5 and PPI can be used for 2.1 active system, and SoundStream can run 3-way active, with Alpine being more conventional but measuring well in a very compact package. The HTML article is not up yet.


----------



## trojan fan

AAAAAAA said:


> But really you aren't. Speaking of analogies....
> 
> It's like if a girl is trying to find the biggest dick to fck and starts measuring them while flacid. Flacid doesn't tell much about how the real deal will be. Girls want it hard and that's where it counts. Same with amplifiers, we don't care about THD really as long as it is undetectable by the ear.


WOW!....That's a very interesting way to look at it:beerchug:


----------



## cvjoint

AAAAAAA said:


> But really you aren't. Speaking of analogies....
> 
> It's like if a girl is trying to find the biggest dick to fck and starts measuring them while flacid. Flacid doesn't tell much about how the real deal will be. Girls want it hard and that's where it counts. Same with amplifiers, we don't care about THD really as long as it is undetectable by the ear.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't either and I suppose this is where our debate shall end.



Great analogy, because it shows you didn't catch my drift. Fcucking makes our exercise a conditional statement just how ability to hear makes a conditional statement for our choice of testing. Conditional on just being able to hear THD, whether that be .05 or 1% that should be where amplifiers are tested. That is your statement. Mine was of a different flavor. I made no claim as whether .05 or 1% is the proper threshold. My basic claim, which is why I turned into an analogy and later into a distribution talk was to highlight one simple point, THD vs. W looks very different to my eyes. It is as simple as these boards have the same buttons and knobs, and that was a great one.

Here, I'll make one in favor of these amplifiers being the same, in fact supporting your claim: 
Can you tell which one of these is the PPI remote?



















The first is the PPI. You mean you couldn't tell?  I'm with you more than you think. I was just trying to kick start some differences and similarities talks so that we can find the truth, are these the same amps with different heatsinks?



Grizz Archer said:


> While I agree with you on varying results using the exact same testing protocol, this is one of those arguments that will never end. Polk guys will argue, PPI guys may agree, and other can go either way based off of what knowledge they have acquired. You proved to yourself what you feel and they are entitled to their own opinion. Gary tests everything the same, whether we like the results or not...


I'm not a PPI guy and I'm not a Polk guy. I'm also not in the least bit interested in contemporary's DIYMA struggle with religion versus science. If you want to use your ears for everything that's fine by me, it's not my internal struggle. That brings me to my actual point. 

I don't feel these amplifiers are the same or different. That's what I'm here to find out. And you Grizz, you can put an end to this. Me and AAAAAA we don't have to go over testing repeatability to find out. You can simply ask your engineer if the OEM board had any sort of PPI requirements. I know some of you guys that represent the face of companies get uncomfortable with direct questions, which is why I tease but don't make it painfully obvious to all board readers. Now we're past that, we're down to direct questions.

Is the PPI board identical to the Polk?


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Like amplifiers, video is not my forte. Do I dare even say that I do not give a crap about video? lol I just want something strong and sellable. The INGENIX headunits come in two levels with the higher being for PPI and SS only. They hit a pricepoint void that is going to be huge for us. Packed with features, these units will rival Japanese brands at a few, to several hundreds of dollars less. They have the highest quality screens available, built in nav, bluetooth, A2DP streaming and will MSRP at $1200. I know this is not the info you are looking for, but I will talk to the video guy and get some dirt for you guys. BTW, the SS and PPI do have copper chassis now that you mention it...


FWIW, 
I do like video and plan on using it extensively with my build so I am very glad to hear that the 771s have top end video and hopefully a top end audio signal as well.

My problem is that I wanted one 8 months ago and now need one going on 2 months now.

Here's hoping for it to come out in time to be considered a Christmas gift to myself...and hoping against hope that it's not a no show in the year 2011.

What say you Mr. G?

Are you going to be Santa Grizz, or Grinch Archer??? 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## metanium

Grizz Archer said:


> Hell, I don't know!  If I had a dollar....
> 
> Let me go ask and see if I can get an eta. If I do not reply by Monday, please remind me...


900/5 ETA Reminder...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cvjoint said:


> Great analogy, because it shows you didn't catch my drift. Fcucking makes our exercise a conditional statement just how ability to hear makes a conditional statement for our choice of testing. Conditional on just being able to hear THD, whether that be .05 or 1% that should be where amplifiers are tested. That is your statement. Mine was of a different flavor. I made no claim as whether .05 or 1% is the proper threshold. My basic claim, which is why I turned into an analogy and later into a distribution talk was to highlight one simple point, THD vs. W looks very different to my eyes. It is as simple as these boards have the same buttons and knobs, and that was a great one.
> 
> Here, I'll make one in favor of these amplifiers being the same, in fact supporting your claim:
> Can you tell which one of these is the PPI remote?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first is the PPI. You mean you couldn't tell?  I'm with you more than you think. I was just trying to kick start some differences and similarities talks so that we can find the truth, are these the same amps with different heatsinks?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a PPI guy and I'm not a Polk guy. I'm also not in the least bit interested in contemporary's DIYMA struggle with religion versus science. If you want to use your ears for everything that's fine by me, it's not my internal struggle. That brings me to my actual point.
> 
> I don't feel these amplifiers are the same or different. That's what I'm here to find out. And you Grizz, you can put an end to this. Me and AAAAAA we don't have to go over testing repeatability to find out. You can simply ask your engineer if the OEM board had any sort of PPI requirements. I know some of you guys that represent the face of companies get uncomfortable with direct questions, which is why I tease but don't make it painfully obvious to all board readers. Now we're past that, we're down to direct questions.
> 
> Is the PPI board identical to the Polk?


Me uncomfortable? Hell no! I say what I think, totally unbiased, as I have for decades. If people do not like it because I am supposed to be some biased self-righteous suit dude, then piss on them. There is alot of good stuff from many companies and even more crap from other companies. 

Here is what I know... The board itself, while many people think it may have been exclusive to Polk, is not. The board, as I understand was originally developed for Nakamichi. I "heard" that Polk stepped it down and made it their own, but that is only heresy and I doubt a company like Polk would do that. We took the board because the size and potential made sense to us. Some people use higher tolerance parts than others. The fact is that they are similar, but I am not familiar with theirs. In fact, I am embarrassed that they are similar and if I have my way, that would have changed. If one of the amps outperforms the other, then that is kind of to be expected in in my opinion. You can always find one of the Nakamichi ones and add that to the comparison to make things even more confusing. And, I fully admit that due to the success of these amplifiers already, we are using that exact same board in a new Soundstream series for next year. There was really nothing to change so they will be identical series, but one for each brand since big power in small chassis is in, apparently. The only difference is that the Soundstream will have the sub amp rated appropriately at 1200 watts. We underrated the PPI amp by accident and had already named it and started marketing it so it was too late to raise the rating... 

In summation, back to your question... Are hey identical. I cannot confirm that as I have never looked at the Polk. But my guess is that the PPI, Polk and Nakamichi will all vary, with somethings similar due to the board and something things different due to quality and tolerance of parts...


----------



## AAAAAAA

It seems other brands are using it to, hertz being one of them. The board gets around.


----------



## JAX

nakamichi has an amp?


----------



## JAX

AAAAAAA said:


> It seems other brands are using it to, hertz being one of them. The board gets around.



got a list of them anyone?

there seem to be tons of small dirt cheap amps all over the place.


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> It seems other brands are using it to, hertz being one of them. The board gets around.


What other brands? The Hertz is is entirely different...


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> nakamichi has an amp?


Not in the USA as far as I know, but yes...


----------



## Grizz Archer

metanium said:


> 900/5 ETA Reminder...


Still have not hit production. Was working on more efficient cooling...


----------



## Babs

I don't know that those other companies are in here taking the hard questions.. I know the little black beauties I'll be going with.

And yeah +1.. Nakamichi has an amp?? LOL! 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## JAX

I know this entire thread was about the phantom and all but did anyone on DIYMA try out the Power Class amps? 

I was just curious.


----------



## cvjoint

Grizz Archer said:


> Me uncomfortable? Hell no! I say what I think, totally unbiased, as I have for decades. If people do not like it because I am supposed to be some biased self-righteous suit dude, then piss on them. There is alot of good stuff from many companies and even more crap from other companies.
> 
> Here is what I know... The board itself, while many people think it may have been exclusive to Polk, is not. The board, as I understand was originally developed for Nakamichi. I "heard" that Polk stepped it down and made it their own, but that is only heresy and I doubt a company like Polk would do that. We took the board because the size and potential made sense to us. Some people use higher tolerance parts than others. The fact is that they are similar, but I am not familiar with theirs. In fact, I am embarrassed that they are similar and if I have my way, that would have changed. If one of the amps outperforms the other, then that is kind of to be expected in in my opinion. You can always find one of the Nakamichi ones and add that to the comparison to make things even more confusing. And, I fully admit that due to the success of these amplifiers already, we are using that exact same board in a new Soundstream series for next year. There was really nothing to change so they will be identical series, but one for each brand since big power in small chassis is in, apparently. The only difference is that the Soundstream will have the sub amp rated appropriately at 1200 watts. We underrated the PPI amp by accident and had already named it and started marketing it so it was too late to raise the rating...
> 
> In summation, back to your question... Are hey identical. I cannot confirm that as I have never looked at the Polk. But my guess is that the PPI, Polk and Nakamichi will all vary, with somethings similar due to the board and something things different due to quality and tolerance of parts...


So you all get at the same board but change caps and such. Feels like a waste if the OEM board is already good. Maybe it comes with a choice list and you all bubble in the bits on the board haha. 

Anywho, your series seems really solid. I was going to get the JL XD but these are cheaper and bench test a lot more power. I'm also glad you didn't add a backlit, rotary style logo like Hertz. It just makes things gaudy and heavy, might even take away from the heat-sinking ability.


----------



## Babs

Good sourcing for proven designs is why such new technology can be competitive with the companies that do it all in house. I'm all for not reinventing the wheel.

Though it'd be nice to find a solid amp engineered and built in the U.S., and I did a little search and came up empty, it'd cost twice as much if it were.. Just a harsh reality.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> I don't know that those other companies are in here taking the hard questions.. I know the little black beauties I'll be going with.
> 
> And yeah +1.. Nakamichi has an amp?? LOL!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


From what I have heard, other manufacturers are on here but rarely get involved. I am a pretty sociable guy. Combine that with my apparent never ending obsession for audio and I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut. There are time when I really want to say something, but know that if I do, it will be to aggressive. It is at that point that Rexroad always seems to blurt out some radical stuff that makes me feel better. But normally, I do not give a crap what people think of my, my level or lack of knowledge, or anything like that. Hey, I like to learn too and there are several badass electronics guys on here. I am still more of an acoustics dude...


----------



## Babs

I'll have to search.. Sparks my curiosity to the recent "resurgence" of the two brands, PPI and SS. If there's a thread in here on that topic (I'm betting at least 10). I assume they're under the same umbrella.. Any others? Just curious.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> I'll have to search.. Sparks my curiosity to the recent "resurgence" of the two brands, PPI and SS. If there's a thread in here on that topic (I'm betting at least 10). I assume they're under the same umbrella.. Any others? Just curious.


Well, PPI is only a couple of years old for us with our new products coming out in 2010, but we bought SS in 2001, so not so recent...


----------



## durwood

Grizz Archer said:


> What other brands? The Hertz is is entirely different...


If by entirely different you mean preamp/crossover section and fusing moved to the side I would say yes. The rest looks like nearly identical. I think think the PPI/Polk versions have a better picked out crossover range. See for yourself.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1401955-post77.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1406129-post85.html

Ampire also has the same model style/config, although they used different types of parts and some things are shuffled around, not quite as clean looking inside IMO.

For when you put this board into a SS, are you going to use the stock board or redesign with connections on one side? Just curious as it would be a way to not just rebrand it, but actually fill a different side of the market that likes connections on one side.


----------



## Grizz Archer

durwood said:


> If by entirely different you mean preamp/crossover section and fusing moved to the side I would say yes. The rest looks like nearly identical. I think think the PPI/Polk versions have a better picked out crossover range. See for yourself.
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1406129-post85.html
> 
> Ampire also has the same model style/config, although they used different types of parts and some things are shuffled around, not quite as clean looking inside IMO.
> 
> For when you put this board into a SS, are you going to use the stock board or redesign with connections on one side? Just curious as it would be a way to not just rebrand it, but actually fill a different side of the market that likes connections on one side.


What makes the Hertz identical. Just the size? To have all of the controls on top constitutes a huge difference. Think about this... I would always get asked, "what is better, the reference or power class amps, and aren't they the same anyway?" These guys are on crack! How could two amps possible be the same if one has a traditional layout while the other has everything on one side? Does this not scream "Hello! I am a totally different board?!"  The fact is that the entire board must be different and things that many people do not think about, like board layout, radically changes performance. If it didn't, and everything was the same just because it looked similar or have similar dimensions, then there is no need for any more than one brand. Layout, parts tolerance and many other things come into play for amp design. Not picking on you buddy, just trying to make a point that sometimes some of these guys make themselves look so foolish when they think products are the same just because of size. Unless that person is an engineer and can dissect the board and tell all of the differences, all they do is spread rumors as they self-righteously prove have how little they know as they try to look knowledgeable...


----------



## durwood

Link fixed. Connection inputs are a minor tweak unless the whole board is re-arranged. Filtering options, sure it makes that "different" in terms of how you can manipulate.

I am speaking in terms of the classD design itself. As you can see from the corrected link, I can easily point to a similar (however not exact) board layout. This is bad for Hertz, not bad for PPI. Some people might have a hard time paying extra for that Hertz. If they measure close enough, then they are indeed similar designs electrically such as with the Polk version.

So were you going to use the off-the-shelf board for the SS or have the layout changed? Just curious.


----------



## Grizz Archer

durwood said:


> Link fixed. Connection inputs are a minor tweak unless the whole board is re-arranged. Filtering options, sure it makes that "different" in terms of how you can manipulate.
> 
> I am speaking in terms of the classD design itself. As you can see from the corrected link, I can easily point to a similar (however not exact) board layout. This is bad for Hertz, not bad for PPI. Some people might have a hard time paying extra for that Hertz. If they measure close enough, then they are indeed similar designs electrically such as with the Polk version.
> 
> So were you going to use the off-the-shelf board for the SS or have the layout changed? Just curious.


After we tweaked the board to our liking for PPI, I got it the way I want it, without getting insane and making it unsellable. Frankly, there is not reason to change this, so yes, the board will be identical to PPI for the new Soundstream Tarantula Nano series. However, if they do as well as we think they will, I think we will expand the Nanos to 2 monoblocks, to multi channel, etc... We'll see. I would have liked to have a Mini Reference style chassis with all side connections and controls, but it is not worth the cost and if they were alot more expensive than PPI, why would one buy them?


----------



## cvjoint

Babs said:


> *Good sourcing for proven designs is why such new technology can be competitive with the companies that do it all in house.* I'm all for not reinventing the wheel.
> 
> Though it'd be nice to find a solid amp engineered and built in the U.S., and I did a little search and came up empty, it'd cost twice as much if it were.. Just a harsh reality.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Yep, in-house designs should give the end user something beyond the proven design that circulates heavily. As far as I can tell there is little of that but "promises" that it would sound better, and many of us are past that. I do like some of the flexibility tweaks. For example, JL XD amps can assign remote control to one or more channels. That's hella useful, you can have independent knobs for subs and midbases up front regardless of the power arrangements. 



Grizz Archer said:


> What makes the Hertz identical. Just the size? To have all of the controls on top constitutes a huge difference. Think about this... I would always get asked, "what is better, the reference or power class amps, and aren't they the same anyway?" These guys are on crack! How could two amps possible be the same if one has a traditional layout while the other has everything on one side? Does this not scream "Hello! I am a totally different board?!"  The fact is that the entire board must be different and things that many people do not think about, like board layout, radically changes performance. If it didn't, and everything was the same just because it looked similar or have similar dimensions, then there is no need for any more than one brand. Layout, parts tolerance and many other things come into play for amp design. Not picking on you buddy, just trying to make a point that sometimes some of these guys make themselves look so foolish when they think products are the same just because of size. Unless that person is an engineer and can dissect the board and tell all of the differences, all they do is spread rumors as they self-righteously prove have how little they know as they try to look knowledgeable...


Well, if the pre-amp section is the only thing that moves from one endcap to the top you could theoretically have the same exact amplifier with a new heatsink. All you need is a raiser. 

It's not unusual to want a brand differentiated from the rest. After all, brand worth is differentiation, economics 101. The unusual part is that this Phantom line of amps is competing in an unorthodox fashion. If the business plan is to sell the same popular board with no frills cheaper than the rest, I'm liking it. A knowledgeable DIYMA member can save a buck and get the same performance. I think it's clever. Someone like Hertz that may sell the same design at the highest price tag might have a lot more to think about. 

I'm personally thankful to all DIYMA members that have good enough photographic memory to pick these things up. It saves me a buck or two and that is a very tangible benefit. We never really had hard evidence that common use boards ever get components on the board that make a tangible difference. Nobody came out and said, yes we changed x, y and z and here is where you will see the impact of our brand changes. Nobody said yes, we use exactly the same board either but that makes business sense. If the brand profits lie in product differentiation why kill off that channel? Imo PPI can benefit greatly as long as they remain the lowest markup source for this board. The website is void of almost all needed information but that is to be expected from the low cost leader, just like how I wouldn't use Arco toilets when I fill up. I would go to a Chevron if I wanted to buy food or take care of number 2s.


----------



## Babs

:jester: They might spring for the extra cost only if they have a huge chrome spider on the top. :rockon:


:rimshot: ba da ba!!


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz, the Phantom P1000.1 is under-rated by 20%??? Wow! Even more bang for the buck! Of course the PPI Art fans will be quick to note the missed opportunity for a "new" Art 1200 amp. Sorry guys, had to mention it.

Also, what is the plan for the Black Ice series? They seem to have been forgotten about in all of the excitement with the Phantoms. Have they been pushed to the back burner for now? With the PC line taking top billing, the Phantoms taking care of the small class D market and the Sedonas handling entry-level customers, it's hard to see a niche for the Black Ice lineup. 
I'm going to be honest Grizz. I would really like to have seen the Black Ice gloss acrylic chassis with gold accents for the Phantom series. 

On a begrudging note. I hate to say anything good about DEI after what they did to PPI but, I held one of their new XTR series amps in my hands a few days ago. They look really good. Just retro enough to recall the old SX and XTR series. Heavy as crap and from Gary's review at PAS Mag, they really produce. 
It seems the retro look is "in" in a big way. Grizz, you might want to take that into account with any new PPI amp design you guys work up!


----------



## Grizz Archer

cvjoint said:


> Yep, in-house designs should give the end user something beyond the proven design that circulates heavily. As far as I can tell there is little of that but "promises" that it would sound better, and many of us are past that. I do like some of the flexibility tweaks. For example, JL XD amps can assign remote control to one or more channels. That's hella useful, you can have independent knobs for subs and midbases up front regardless of the power arrangements.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if the pre-amp section is the only thing that moves from one endcap to the top you could theoretically have the same exact amplifier with a new heatsink. All you need is a raiser.
> 
> It's not unusual to want a brand differentiated from the rest. After all, brand worth is differentiation, economics 101. The unusual part is that this Phantom line of amps is competing in an unorthodox fashion. If the business plan is to sell the same popular board with no frills cheaper than the rest, I'm liking it. A knowledgeable DIYMA member can save a buck and get the same performance. I think it's clever. Someone like Hertz that may sell the same design at the highest price tag might have a lot more to think about.
> 
> I'm personally thankful to all DIYMA members that have good enough photographic memory to pick these things up. It saves me a buck or two and that is a very tangible benefit. We never really had hard evidence that common use boards ever get components on the board that make a tangible difference. Nobody came out and said, yes we changed x, y and z and here is where you will see the impact of our brand changes. Nobody said yes, we use exactly the same board either but that makes business sense. If the brand profits lie in product differentiation why kill off that channel? Imo PPI can benefit greatly as long as they remain the lowest markup source for this board. The website is void of almost all needed information but that is to be expected from the low cost leader, just like how I wouldn't use Arco toilets when I fill up. I would go to a Chevron if I wanted to buy food or take care of number 2s.


If the pre amps section is not the same as another design, then the board layout must be different, I would think, but I am not an EE. The difference in board layout can radically change the performance, even with the same exact parts. The Ref amps are a prime example of proper layout can accomplish. Sure we could have just taken the easy route, but it took YEARS to get it right and get the legit specs that we got now. By simply making it a traditional amp with end terminals and control, all of that would change... Our goal was not to make them cheaper, but rather to make them better. One guy said that the PPI outperforms the Polk I personally cannot confirm this, but it proves the point that simple changes can sometimes make moderate to large differences...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Babs said:


> :jester: They might spring for the extra cost only if they have a huge chrome spider on the top. :rockon:
> 
> 
> :rimshot: ba da ba!!


Damn right! The products that we changed logos on failed instantly. Spiders sell for us, on everything. Weird but that is the way it is...


----------



## Babs

I can see that.. Unique brand-recognition and demographic. As much as I love the bikes but hate the logo, the Harley Bar and Shield is iconic and staying for sure. Can't argue with sales fig's. Rock on.


----------



## cvjoint

Grizz Archer said:


> If the pre amps section is not the same as another design, then the board layout must be different, I would think, but I am not an EE. The difference in board layout can radically change the performance, even with the same exact parts. The Ref amps are a prime example of proper layout can accomplish. Sure we could have just taken the easy route, but it took YEARS to get it right and get the legit specs that we got now. By simply making it a traditional amp with end terminals and control, all of that would change... Our goal was not to make them cheaper, but rather to make them better. One guy said that the PPI outperforms the Polk I personally cannot confirm this, but it proves the point that simple changes can sometimes make moderate to large differences...


I was the guy. The bench test does show the PPI is better, at least in the tests it ran through. There was no stereo separation or damping factor test and that makes me a little uneasy. The other problem with the test is the one AAAAA pointed out, what if we're just seeing production or test inherent variance? If you tested two different PPIs and one tested like the Polk, what then? Wouldn't that say they are indeed the same amp but either the tester or the production has large variation? For all I know the tester may have had a 13.8V battery for the Polk and a 14.4V battery for the PPI. Since he can't publish Voltage variations and look legit to customers he may have hid that in the +- disclosed range.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, the Phantom P1000.1 is under-rated by 20%??? Wow! Even more bang for the buck! Of course the PPI Art fans will be quick to note the missed opportunity for a "new" Art 1200 amp. Sorry guys, had to mention it.
> 
> Also, what is the plan for the Black Ice series? They seem to have been forgotten about in all of the excitement with the Phantoms. Have they been pushed to the back burner for now? With the PC line taking top billing, the Phantoms taking care of the small class D market and the Sedonas handling entry-level customers, it's hard to see a niche for the Black Ice lineup.
> I'm going to be honest Grizz. I would really like to have seen the Black Ice gloss acrylic chassis with gold accents for the Phantom series.
> 
> On a begrudging note. I hate to say anything good about DEI after what they did to PPI but, I held one of their new XTR series amps in my hands a few days ago. They look really good. Just retro enough to recall the old SX and XTR series. Heavy as crap and from Gary's review at PAS Mag, they really produce.
> It seems the retro look is "in" in a big way. Grizz, you might want to take that into account with any new PPI amp design you guys work up!


Yup it does 1200. Better to screw up that way then the other way... Black Ice has been delayed due to cooling. The original top was Lexan, like Stealth, but it dod not cool nearly as well. Now it looks the same but is aluminum. From what I have heard, it is cooling much better and it should not be much longer before we go to production... As for retro, I am still dying to make my new ART DESIGN!!! Freaking killing me. Yet, at the same time, I was a huge Pro Mos fan and have an idea for it, but it would never sell so it is just another pipe dream...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cvjoint said:


> I was the guy. The bench test does show the PPI is better, at least in the tests it ran through. There was no stereo separation or damping factor test and that makes me a little uneasy. The other problem with the test is the one AAAAA pointed out, what if we're just seeing production or test inherent variance? If you tested two different PPIs and one tested like the Polk, what then? Wouldn't that say they are indeed the same amp but either the tester or the production has large variation? For all I know the tester may have had a 13.8V battery for the Polk and a 14.4V battery for the PPI. Since he can't publish Voltage variations and look legit to customers he may have hid that in the +- disclosed range.


But you need to remember that our engineer tweaked it with different value parts and such, The original sample we received needs some work, as if they just did not care about performance. I am not saying one is better than the other. My point is that they were not finalized by the same engineers with same specs. As for variance, yes this happens. Ours will probably vary within 5 watts due our tight tolerance requirements. Tolerances of 10 or more watts, to me, shows that lower quality and higher tolerance parts were used...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Yup it does 1200. Better to screw up that way then the other way... Black Ice has been delayed due to cooling. The original top was Lexan, like Stealth, but it dod not cool nearly as well. Now it looks the same but is aluminum. From what I have heard, it is cooling much better and it should not be much longer before we go to production... As for retro, I am still dying to make my new ART DESIGN!!! Freaking killing me. Yet, at the same time, I was a huge Pro Mos fan and have an idea for it, but it would never sell so it is just another pipe dream...


You guys have really nailed it with the Phantoms. Power, size, class D performance and price point. Everything is dead-on what the market is looking for right now. My understanding is that the multi-channel Black Ice amps are class a/b in design. So, what segment of the market are they intended to serve and who are the manufacturers they will compete with?

You and I are just about the last guys on the planet with a soft spot for the old Pro Mos amps. LOL! 
Those new aluminum Black Ice heatsinks w/copper accents would have been special if they had said *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet Amplifier across the top!


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> You guys have really nailed it with the Phantoms. Power, size, class D performance and price point. Everything is dead-on what the market is looking for right now. My understanding is that the multi-channel Black Ice amps are class a/b in design. So, what segment of the market are they intended to serve and who are the manufacturers they will compete with?
> 
> You and I are just about the last guys on the planet with a soft spot for the old Pro Mos amps. LOL!
> Those new aluminum Black Ice heatsinks w/copper accents would have been special if they had said *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet Amplifier across the top!


The Black Ice are a narrower amp than the wide based PC and Sedonna. They are intended to be a step under PC, but still have BLT inputs...


----------



## JAX

Anyone use the power class ? Anyone ?


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> all they do is spread rumors as they self-righteously prove have how little they know as they try to look knowledgeable...


LOL!!!!!!!!!! hence the tendancy for my radical statements 
I hate dumb rumors or BS info for the sake of biased, NON educated slander just for ****s and giggles.....Yes, I do get a little carried away with it here and there.....but its just so damn frequent 

I have drank from the new epsilon coolaid and I am a believer.... But you cant know or believe till you actually try it!!!


Ps....I am all for the ref designed mini's!!!!! I think they would do REALLY REALLY well! Nothing else on the market that looks that way? I would also be into a Pro Mos design too! I loved the arts, but I felt they were probably the ugliest thing you could/can put in your vehicle (awesome....but U G L Y!!!) of course no disrespect to those that love the looks or more importantly to the designer Just not my cup of tea! 
By the way.....am I going to get a commision check for all the ss refs I "sell" people on J/K.... Those were a grand slam in my book!!!


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> As for retro, I am still dying to make my new ART DESIGN!!! Freaking killing me. Yet, at the same time, I was a huge Pro Mos fan and have an idea for it, but it would never sell so it is just another pipe dream...


Here we go again. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## JoeHemi57

Looking forward to the SS line comparable to the Phantoms, keep the styling clean and i'll be buying i don't can't do the copper.


----------



## Jsracing

I'm still hoping for the class D SS amps to look like Reference amps. I'd even take it looking like Rubicons. I'm not a fan of spider amps and the like, even decades ago as a teen.

I was in the market for a new class D amp recently and was almost dead set on a Phantom. Even though I can get JLs for a great price, every XD amp except the XD700/5 lacks the preamp flexibility of the Phantom and all fall well short on power compared to the Phantoms. BUT, in my search, I couldn't find a close by dealer, and my local shop offered me Kenwood Excelon class Ds at Phantom prices, so I picked up those instead.

It'd be nice of the dealer network were larger. I called one dealer that was nearby that PPIs website said was a newly added dealer in 2011 and they said they don't carry PPI. I was close to owning another PPI after so many years, but the dealer availability combined with the Kenwoods dual PS and equal power and preamp flexibility won out.

Grizz or anyone that knows, does the P900.5 have an equally flexible preamp as that P900.4? I read somewhere it was more limited.


----------



## subwoofery

PPI_GUY said:


> You guys have really nailed it with the Phantoms. Power, size, class D performance and price point. Everything is dead-on what the market is looking for right now. My understanding is that the multi-channel Black Ice amps are class a/b in design. So, what segment of the market are they intended to serve and who are the manufacturers they will compete with?
> 
> You and I are just about the last guys on the planet with a soft spot for the old Pro Mos amps. LOL!
> Those new aluminum Black Ice heatsinks w/copper accents would have been special if they had said *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet Amplifier across the top!


I'm sure it has been discussed already but what about having PPI releasing some "Limited Edition" collector items like Phoenix Gold used to do in the past? 
New version of a ProMos with a new heatsink, serial and all. 
New version of the Art series, still with a new heatsink. 
A "Frank Art'n Stein" amp would sell well too 

Kelvin


----------



## fire_mike

Jsracing said:


> I'm still hoping for the class D SS amps to look like Reference amps. I'd even take it looking like Rubicons. I'm not a fan of spider amps and the like, even decades ago as a teen.
> 
> I was in the market for a new class D amp recently and was almost dead set on a Phantom. Even though I can get JLs for a great price, every XD amp except the XD700/5 lacks the preamp flexibility of the Phantom and all fall well short on power compared to the Phantoms. BUT, in my search, I couldn't find a close by dealer, and my local shop offered me Kenwood Excelon class Ds at Phantom prices, so I picked up those instead.
> 
> It'd be nice of the dealer network were larger. I called one dealer that was nearby that PPIs website said was a newly added dealer in 2011 and they said they don't carry PPI. I was close to owning another PPI after so many years, but the dealer availability combined with the Kenwoods dual PS and equal power and preamp flexibility won out.
> 
> Grizz or anyone that knows, does the P900.5 have an equally flexible preamp as that P900.4? I read somewhere it was more limited.


You could have ordered the PPI online (like from Sonic) - that would have solved your dealer location problem.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> LOL!!!!!!!!!! hence the tendancy for my radical statements
> I hate dumb rumors or BS info for the sake of biased, NON educated slander just for ****s and giggles.....Yes, I do get a little carried away with it here and there.....but its just so damn frequent
> 
> I have drank from the new epsilon coolaid and I am a believer.... But you cant know or believe till you actually try it!!!
> 
> 
> Ps....I am all for the ref designed mini's!!!!! I think they would do REALLY REALLY well! Nothing else on the market that looks that way? I would also be into a Pro Mos design too! I loved the arts, but I felt they were probably the ugliest thing you could/can put in your vehicle (awesome....but U G L Y!!!) of course no disrespect to those that love the looks or more importantly to the designer Just not my cup of tea!
> By the way.....am I going to get a commision check for all the ss refs I "sell" people on J/K.... Those were a grand slam in my book!!!


LOL there will be no Ref minis. But you see my point... I would rather have some talk **** about my cool aid after trying it then some primadonna bragging about it when he has never tried it. If wish there was a DIYMA rule that stated, "OPINIONS ARE BASED ON EXPERIENCE - IF YOU DO NOT HAVE REAL EXPERIENCE, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE A REAL OPINION". Actually, I wish Earth has this policy...  I say "I don't know" all the time. Why is that so hard for some people?


----------



## PPI_GUY

Found this pic of the Phantom P1000.1 guts.


----------



## JAX

buddy got his 900.4 today. 

very small but very solid and heavy feel to it. I liked it. 

if I could sell my Mmats pro sq4160 without getting rapped I would get one of these .


----------



## DAT

JAX said:


> buddy got his 900.4 today.
> 
> very small but very solid and heavy feel to it. I liked it.
> 
> if I could sell my Mmats pro sq4160 without getting rapped I would get one of these .


Mike,

Man your going backwards, PPI amps are nice but the MMats amp is killer...

- Toshiba audio-grade outputs
- High current connectors
- Independent gain controls
- 24db variable crossover


high quality parts and such..


----------



## fire_mike

I just got my 900.4 installed last night. So far I like it a lot. I'm going to work with the gains tonight and over the next few days to get it sounding perfect.


----------



## Darth SQ

fire_mike said:


> I just got my 900.4 installed last night. So far I like it a lot. I'm going to work with the gains tonight and over the next few days to get it sounding perfect.


How about a few pics of your install with new said amp? 

BTW, where in Northern AZ?

Flagstaff?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## JAX

DAT said:


> Mike,
> 
> Man your going backwards, PPI amps are nice but the MMats amp is killer...
> 
> - Toshiba audio-grade outputs
> - High current connectors
> - Independent gain controls
> - 24db variable crossover
> 
> 
> high quality parts and such..


yes , I know. but it is rather large. my only complaint.

if i have it next week it goes in the car. then done.


----------



## fire_mike

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> How about a few pics of your install with new said amp?
> 
> BTW, where in Northern AZ?
> 
> Flagstaff?
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I post some pics when I get the install cleaned up a bit. It was getting dark fast on me yeasterday, so I just got it in there and working. I'm going to try to clean it up Friday and Sunday. 

I'm in Cottonwood - about an hour south of Flagstaff (and 20 min south of Sedona).


----------



## Darth SQ

fire_mike said:


> I post some pics when I get the install cleaned up a bit. It was getting dark fast on me yeasterday, so I just got it in there and working. I'm going to try to clean it up Friday and Sunday.
> 
> I'm in Cottonwood - about an hour south of Flagstaff (and 20 min south of Sedona).


Yep Cottonwood.
Did a lot of claims there when I lived in AZ.
Loved going to Jerome up on Mingus Mountain just up the hill from you. 
I actually looked at buying a home in the Mingus subdivision on the Prescott Valley side of Mingus Mountain; just short of the fairgrounds.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## JAX

how much does the 1000.1 put out at 2ohms 12 volts or so?


----------



## Angrywhopper

Just finished reading the entire thread, post by post. 

1. I hope the PPI headunits are VERY different than those by Power Acoustik and Farenheit. Those units are complete junk and I would rather have a hole in my dash than one of those units.

2. At Kelvin, I'm not sure how well "limited edition" amps would sell. JL Audio released its "limited edition JL W7" this year, and sales havn't been all that great. Outside of the forum, the average car audio consumer won't shell out the extra cash just because its limited.

3. I'm glad Grizz is on the site answering everyone's questions. I also wish you guys would come out with new ART amps.


----------



## subwoofery

Angrywhopper said:


> Just finished reading the entire thread, post by post.
> 
> 1. I hope the PPI headunits are VERY different than those by Power Acoustik and Farenheit. Those units are complete junk and I would rather have a hole in my dash than one of those units.
> 
> 2. At Kelvin, I'm not sure how well "limited edition" amps would sell. JL Audio released its "limited edition JL W7" this year, and sales havn't been all that great. Outside of the forum, the average car audio consumer won't shell out the extra cash just because its limited.
> 
> 3. I'm glad Grizz is on the site answering everyone's questions. I also wish you guys would come out with new ART amps.


2. Understood. However I do understand people not wanting to pay more money just for cosmetic - W7AE is all cosmetic compared to last year's model... 
What I suggested was to create a completely new product that could be sold as a limited edition only thing. 
Some people still buy Brax 6 channels, some still buy Genesis 6 channels and P15. 
- Who knows, maybe a couple of Phantom that could include a P600.2 and a P900.5 in a single chassis... 
- Reverse engineer the old PPI ProMos, use new components and sell it in limited edition for the people that couldn't afford one when it was first released... 
- An Hybrid amp: 4 channels from Black Ice and 3 channels from Phantom (last channel a bit stronger than the P900.5) 
- LE Staggered amp (like PG Bandit and Outlaw)

Shouldn't cost an arm and leg to produce in order to still be "sellable"... 
Just sayin'  

Kelvin


----------



## Angrywhopper

subwoofery said:


> 2. Understood. However I do understand people not wanting to pay more money just for cosmetic - W7AE is all cosmetic compared to last year's model...
> What I suggested was to create a completely new product that could be sold as a limited edition only thing.
> Some people still buy Brax 6 channels, some still buy Genesis 6 channels and P15.
> - Who knows, maybe a couple of Phantom that could include a P600.2 and a P900.5 in a single chassis...
> - Reverse engineer the old PPI ProMos, use new components and sell it in limited edition for the people that couldn't afford one when it was first released...
> - An Hybrid amp: 4 channels from Black Ice and 3 channels from Phantom (last channel a bit stronger than the P900.5)
> - LE Staggered amp (like PG Bandit and Outlaw)
> 
> Shouldn't cost an arm and leg to produce in order to still be "sellable"...
> Just sayin'
> 
> Kelvin


Good points. A limited edition amp that Is truly limited and Different From the rest would be awesome.


----------



## rexroadj

subwoofery said:


> .
> - Who knows, maybe a couple of Phantom that could include a P600.2 and a P900.5 in a single chassis... OH HELL YES!!!!!!!! That would be AWESOME!!!!! Or better yet....a p1000.1, p600.2, and p900.4 in one slightly smaller chassis!!!! One amp....one large well powered system with active capability and shared rca inputs?
> 
> 
> - Reverse engineer the old PPI ProMos, use new components and sell it in limited edition for the people that couldn't afford one when it was first released...
> Kelvin


Also love this idea as well...... that could be really cool...maybe affordable, and certainly apply to the "nostalgia" and probably haul in some new customers...As discussed.... some of us agree that if the Ref...and PC lines were more $ they may be more "respected" and maybe shopped more? This may be a good chance to try that... do a really limited run (maybe less then 500?), make sure you guys get "paid" for it! and give something really "collectable" out there! I think this could be a fun little project if you could sell it to the big wigs Of course you would have to offer us pre release purchase's first Maybe not a special price....BUT first dibs! Obviously they still need to adhere to a realistic price range so they dont become dust collectors...Maybe Ref quality/power but old school pro mos looks and "special" heatsink????
Sorry....I must have been dreaming while typing....I'm awake now.........


----------



## JAX

Don't see that happening. I am sure they are still feeling the sting from the HRU amps that didn't sell. 

Although I don't know why. I should have one of them but I don't. Would still like one. 

Now the idea of making a special all in one mini monster is a fantastic idea. 

My buddy ordered a 1000.1 to go with his 900.4 last night. 

I myself would love to have the same set. They are small but very nicely done. If the two were combined they would still be reasonable in size but with plenty of power. 

Problem with 5or6 channel amps is they lack in the sub area or too big.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Angrywhopper said:


> Just finished reading the entire thread, post by post.
> 
> 1. I hope the PPI headunits are VERY different than those by Power Acoustik and Farenheit. Those units are complete junk and I would rather have a hole in my dash than one of those units.
> 
> 2. At Kelvin, I'm not sure how well "limited edition" amps would sell. JL Audio released its "limited edition JL W7" this year, and sales havn't been all that great. Outside of the forum, the average car audio consumer won't shell out the extra cash just because its limited.
> 
> 3. I'm glad Grizz is on the site answering everyone's questions. I also wish you guys would come out with new ART amps.


The INGENIX radio are leaps and bound better than anything we have ever had. Even the PA and FAR versions are badass, but the PPI and SS will have a faster processor and double the ram. ART? We already have the design done, boards designed, etc, but it is a complicated situation that we do not need to get into again. Maybe someday they'll become a reality...


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> how much does the 1000.1 put out at 2ohms 12 volts or so?


Sample did 711 at 2 ohms, 12.0V... Need more samples though to be accurate...


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> Don't see that happening. I am sure they are still feeling the sting from the HRU amps that didn't sell.
> 
> Although I don't know why. I should have one of them but I don't. Would still like one.
> 
> Now the idea of making a special all in one mini monster is a fantastic idea.
> 
> My buddy ordered a 1000.1 to go with his 900.4 last night.
> 
> I myself would love to have the same set. They are small but very nicely done. If the two were combined they would still be reasonable in size but with plenty of power.
> 
> Problem with 5or6 channel amps is they lack in the sub area or too big.


Yeah, and as soon as they were gone, everybody wanted them again. This never changes. All of last ones went to Russia where they generally only like high end SQ. And the rest went to South America for the monster Pro Audio vehicles...


----------



## rockytophigh

I got one....I got one! lol. Jax you really should buy mine :0)


----------



## PPI_GUY

Hard to justify a special or limited edition _anything_. Look at the 25 to Life RF's. They used a retro heatsink with supposedly higher power output. But, people stayed away in droves until they got blown out at really cheap prices. Someone already mentioned the J-L A/E stuff. I can't believe the Human Reign wouldn't still be in production if were seeing high demand. 
Having said all of that...I would buy a new version of the Pro Mos in a heartbeat. That is, as long as it was a SQ beast. Maybe with BTL, hard and soft clip indicators, excellent crossover section, current sensing turn-on, possibly even alternate inputs (optical?) and a cool retro finned design available in black or Art-type white.
Of course myself and a handful of others would make for a limited market. LOL!


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Hard to justify a special or limited edition _anything_. Look at the 25 to Life RF's. They used a retro heatsink with supposedly higher power output. But, people stayed away in droves until they got blown out at really cheap prices. Someone already mentioned the J-L A/E stuff. I can't believe the Human Reign wouldn't still be in production if were seeing high demand.
> Having said all of that...I would buy a new version of the Pro Mos in a heartbeat. That is, as long as it was a SQ beast. Maybe with BTL, hard and soft clip indicators, excellent crossover section, current sensing turn-on, possibly even alternate inputs (optical?) and a cool retro finned design available in black or Art-type white.
> Of course myself and a handful of others would make for a limited market. LOL!


We would never be able to sell low rated power amps that are high current. But I would kill to have an insane system with a pair of 25 watt amps!


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> ART? We already have the design done, boards designed, etc, but it is a complicated situation that we do not need to get into again. Maybe someday they'll become a reality...


So - sell the assets. I'll be first in line.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> We would never be able to sell low rated power amps that are high current. But I would kill to have an insane system with a pair of 25 watt amps!


Who says they would have to be high current amps or even low power? Unlike the old Orion HCCA amps, the PPI's never hinted that they were high current. Even the Pro Art amps, while being low impedence stable, were better known as high SQ amplifiers. 
I could see a Pro Mos series that included a four channel a/b amp with all the features I mentioned earlier, maybe a couple 2 channel a/b amps and then 2-3 monoblock 1 ohm stable, high efficency amps. 
Your SS Rubicon amps are already very close to what I am thinking of in the power breakdown by model. That big 2500.1 would look awesome in black (kinda like the Lil Wonder series) with the Pro Mos retro type fins. Just add the features I mentioned earlier with the emphasis on high SQ.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Who says they would have to be high current amps or even low power? Unlike the old Orion HCCA amps, the PPI's never hinted that they were high current. Even the Pro Art amps, while being low impedence stable, were better known as high SQ amplifiers.
> I could see a Pro Mos series that included a four channel a/b amp with all the features I mentioned earlier, maybe a couple 2 channel a/b amps and then 2-3 monoblock 1 ohm stable, high efficency amps.
> Your SS Rubicon amps are already very close to what I am thinking of in the power breakdown by model. That big 2500.1 would look awesome in black (kinda like the Lil Wonder series) with the Pro Mos retro type fins. Just add the features I mentioned earlier with the emphasis on high SQ.


You know I'll jump on it if they give me the chance, but for sales, it would better to do Art first...


----------



## cvjoint

Grizz Archer said:


> We would never be able to sell low rated power amps that are high current. But I would kill to have an insane system with a pair of 25 watt amps!


What's the benefit of high current? Hardly anybody talks about this in car audio.


----------



## Grizz Archer

cvjoint said:


> What's the benefit of high current? Hardly anybody talks about this in car audio.


That's my point, the masses would not want it...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> it would better to do Art first...




*YES!!!!*

When?

Bret
PPI-ART-COLLECTOR


----------



## DiMora

I know the art series were good amps, but I hated the art-paint. It is uncool now in a Zubaz / Vanilla Ice kind of way...with a hint of Milli-Vanilli.


----------



## JAX

DiMora said:


> I know the art series were good amps, but I hated the art-paint. It is uncool now in a Zubaz / Vanilla Ice kind of way...with a hint of Milli-Vanilli.


blasphemer..lol

now the damn plug connectors ..I hate..thats why I never use them ..I hate them plugs..holes too small.


----------



## DiMora

JAX said:


> blasphemer..lol
> 
> now the damn plug connectors ..I hate..thats why I never use them ..I hate them plugs..holes too small.


Oh yes...I forgot about those white molex plugs.


----------



## Darth SQ

DiMora said:


> Oh yes...I forgot about those white molex plugs.


Maybe if you would properly tin your leads before trying to insert them into the plugs...
Didn't ITT and Devry teach you guys anything?

Just sayin.

EDIT: As far as the artwork goes, it's always subjective.
As for me, I absolutely love it and can't wait to pop the barn doors open in my Suburban and show them off.

You have to admit, there's nothing like them visually and few that can match their sq abilites.

Damn Grizz, build the tribute amps.
I'll be 1st in line. epper:

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## PPI_GUY

No offense to CHY or anyone who liked the white Art designs or even the look of the older white Pro/M/AM series amps but, I always thought the black versions looked so much cooler. Sinister even. Bwahahaha!


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> No offense to CHY or anyone who liked the white Art designs or even the look of the older white Pro/M/AM series amps but, I always thought the black versions looked so much cooler. Sinister even. Bwahahaha!


For the record, even CHY said she loved the look of the black arts with the board schematics silkscreen.

They're so cool whether they're wearing a white or black hat. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## jpswanberg

Agreed on the black. Even if you had the Phantom internals (no mods) and an "Art inspired" top. Add my name to those who don't want to see molex/din inputs too . Not that we can't use them, just that regular connections are sooo much easier for us lazy people. JPS


----------



## AAAAAAA

cvjoint said:


> What's the benefit of high current? Hardly anybody talks about this in car audio.


No point now.
Back then the point was cheating.


----------



## cvjoint

AAAAAAA said:


> No point now.
> Back then the point was cheating.


Yeah, it seems you would actually lose efficiency if you get the same power at a lower load.


----------



## JAX

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Maybe if you would properly tin your leads before trying to insert them into the plugs...
> Didn't ITT and Devry teach you guys anything?
> 
> Just sayin.
> 
> EDIT: As far as the artwork goes, it's always subjective.
> As for me, I absolutely love it and can't wait to pop the barn doors open in my Suburban and show them off.
> 
> You have to admit, there's nothing like them visually and few that can match their sq abilites.
> 
> Damn Grizz, build the tribute amps.
> I'll be 1st in line. epper:
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


well yes but if I were to be running say oh a SS reference amp I wouldnt have to do that. the wires tuck nice and neat into the holes .

the holes just needed to be bigger. Actually I hate the entire design of them plugs. I always felt I was going to pull something loose trying to remove one from the amp.


----------



## BlackFx4InTn

Oh man, by the looks of it, PPI is on it's way back! I'm going to get that Phantom P900.4 as soon as I get my BNIB NX4 sold!


----------



## DiMora

JAX said:


> well yes but if I were to be running say oh a SS reference amp I wouldnt have to do that. the wires tuck nice and neat into the holes .
> 
> the holes just needed to be bigger. Actually I hate the entire design of them plugs. I always felt I was going to pull something loose trying to remove one from the amp.


Exactly.

I was a Soundstream guy myself, and thus my preference.

I did like the black-N-red PPI's...


----------



## JAX

I broke down and ordered one of these 900.4 . I have a stealth install in mind and this will go exactly where I need it. I am going to get one of the 1000.1 too


----------



## slvrdrgn123

I'm interested in one of these too. Will they be able to run HAT Imagines active with the built in cross overs? Thanks.


----------



## rockytophigh

JAX said:


> I broke down and ordered one of these 900.4 . I have a stealth install in mind and this will go exactly where I need it. I am going to get one of the 1000.1 too


You're my hero. 

(ahem, when does the 5 channel come out??)


----------



## ZAKOH

slvrdrgn123 said:


> I'm interested in one of these too. Will they be able to run HAT Imagines active with the built in cross overs? Thanks.


Most likely not with built in crossovers. This is because most people who have tried these active, liked using tweeter crossover frequency in 5-6KHz range, with a sharp slope. The PPI Amp high pass crossover goes up to something like 4.5KHz according to the label.

However, you don't need to have a full crossover to go active with HAT speakers. The HAT woofers are designed to play up to 5KHz and higher and will roll off naturally without a crossover. For the tweeter you can insert a capacitor with an appropriate value for a 1st order high pass filter. I working on this setup right now. The HAT Imagines come with a 2.2uF capacitor on the woofer (used by the tweeter), so you can just buy one of these from parts express.


----------



## slvrdrgn123

ZAKOH said:


> Most likely not with built in crossovers. This is because most people who have tried these active, liked using tweeter crossover frequency in 5-6KHz range, with a sharp slope. The PPI Amp high pass crossover goes up to something like 4.5KHz according to the label.
> 
> However, you don't need to have a full crossover to go active with HAT speakers. The HAT woofers are designed to play up to 5KHz and higher and will roll off naturally without a crossover. For the tweeter you can insert a capacitor with an appropriate value for a 1st order high pass filter. I working on this setup right now. The HAT Imagines come with a 2.2uF capacitor on the woofer (used by the tweeter), so you can just buy one of these from parts express.


I understand that first part about it not being high enough, but the capacitor part went over my head. I found the part on parts express, but how would I go about inserting it into the setup? Thanks.


----------



## cvjoint

Dood, use the built in crossover. It's hella nice you have that built in. Even if a 6" midrange rolls off naturally (not sure what this means) it still doesn't have the dispersion characteristics similar to your tweeter past 2khz or so. Then even if the break up is not severe it still usually rings and has high distortion up top.


----------



## ZAKOH

slvrdrgn123 said:


> I understand that first part about it not being high enough, but the capacitor part went over my head. I found the part on parts express, but how would I go about inserting it into the setup? Thanks.


You cut tweeter's positive wire and solder a capacitor inline. I did this yesterday using this part. This creates a high pass crossover with -6dB slope starting at around 18KHz according to crossover calculator. This frequency sounds like a strange spec, but remember that with a shallow slope it means that the tweeter will be only 12dB down at 4500Hz and 18dB down at 2250Hz. The later could be accomplished with a high pass crossover at 4.5KHz with a 18dB slope. I just finished such quasi active setup and since I don't have a capability to change my tweeter crossover slope to try out whether something like 6000Hz high pass with 18dB slope would sound a lot better than the stock setup, but I does seem to sound nice to my untrained ear as of right now. Having this capacitor would probably help to protect your tweeter from nasty clicks and pops sent my lower quality amplifier on turn on and off.

PS: If you don't want to bother with the capacitor, you can try to use the amplifier's crossover at the max value to see how it goes. Having an amplifier crossover could help you a little even if you use a capacitor in line (e.g. apply amplifier crossover at 4KHz or so, making sure the tweeter is dead silent at lower frequencies).


----------



## ZAKOH

cvjoint said:


> Dood, use the built in crossover. It's hella nice you have that built in. Even if a 6" midrange rolls off naturally (not sure what this means) it still doesn't have the dispersion characteristics similar to your tweeter past 2khz or so. Then even if the break up is not severe it still usually rings and has high distortion up top.


I see what you're saying, but wouldn't break up be an issue with woofer being off-axis in the usual location in many cars? In any case, with so many users of Imagines so far no one has complained of the woofer having sloppy dispersion.. I tried to run the woofers with tweeters turned off, and while this will sound off as expected with not treble and low sound stage, its surprising to m ear how much information is coming from the woofers.


----------



## cvjoint

ZAKOH said:


> I see what you're saying, but wouldn't break up be an issue with woofer being off-axis in the usual location in many cars? In any case, with so many users of Imagines so far no one has complained of the woofer having sloppy dispersion.. I tried to run the woofers with tweeters turned off, and while this will sound off as expected with not treble and low sound stage, its surprising to m ear how much information is coming from the woofers.


They probably start beaming where 6.5" usually beam. Woofer rolloff is anything but regular, it doesn't mimic a crossover. 

The crossovers in these amps are very capable. Crossovers do more good then they do harm. No reason not to use them, especially since they give you flexibility. The only time you should bypass them in the amp is if you have others built into your digital source, prior to converting your digital signal to analog. That applies to people that have 4way or 3way headunits or optically linked processors.


----------



## JAX

back to topic...


how do these do under high volume for long period of time?

I am trying to convince my neighbor to install these in the bottom center console of his silverado so I dont have to pull his seat out of the back every time he wants to adjust it like his current amps are.

I dont like to put them under seat cause if you spill something then it usually ends up right there under seat..

just want to know how hot these will get. he will be pushing them


----------



## Jsracing

Thats the advantage of class D amps, they dont really heat up. Even in summer heat of high 90s to over 100F, my JL gets just warm while I blast it for 2hrs straight. My friends Eclipse class D, the most efficient ones I know of always feels cool, and we both run ours bridged so we're not at max efficiency.
You should have no problems with heat.

Regarding the Imagine discussion, you can design a driver that had little break up on the high end and off axis often helps reduce the ability to notice the break up. Also beaming is dependent on physical dimensions only, so it will beam at the same frequency of an identical size driver. if the driver operates cleanly over it's full band, theres no reason out wouldn't sound as good or better crossing lower unless the tweeter has poor response that low, which could likely be due to high Fs our high distortion at lower frequencies. As for how well things sound, the car environment hides alot, and contributes alot of distortion and irregularities.


----------



## JAX

I have had many class d. This ppi is the smallest I have had so I wondered how it does. Some due better than others. 

Anyone know the efficiency rating? I need to read the review again.


----------



## WLDock

CEA-2006A rated 4 ohm Power (minimum power per channel developed over the entire intended audio bandwidth) - *131 Watts* 
Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch. - *83.0%* 
Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch. - *75.8%* 
Efficiency at 10 watts per channel, 4 ohms - *60.4%*


----------



## Grizz Archer

ZAKOH said:


> You cut tweeter's positive wire and solder a capacitor inline. I did this yesterday using this part. This creates a high pass crossover with -6dB slope starting at around 18KHz according to crossover calculator. This frequency sounds like a strange spec, but remember that with a shallow slope it means that the tweeter will be only 12dB down at 4500Hz and 18dB down at 2250Hz. The later could be accomplished with a high pass crossover at 4.5KHz with a 18dB slope. I just finished such quasi active setup and since I don't have a capability to change my tweeter crossover slope to try out whether something like 6000Hz high pass with 18dB slope would sound a lot better than the stock setup, but I does seem to sound nice to my untrained ear as of right now. Having this capacitor would probably help to protect your tweeter from nasty clicks and pops sent my lower quality amplifier on turn on and off.
> 
> PS: If you don't want to bother with the capacitor, you can try to use the amplifier's crossover at the max value to see how it goes. Having an amplifier crossover could help you a little even if you use a capacitor in line (e.g. apply amplifier crossover at 4KHz or so, making sure the tweeter is dead silent at lower frequencies).


Just my $.02. 6 and 18dB slopes are undesirable since they create a phase shift that cannot be corrected. I vowed many years ago to stick with 12dB, 24dB or full active xovers...


----------



## JAX

nobody using these yet besides my neighbor?


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> nobody using these yet besides my neighbor?


Several guys using the Phantoms and and a few just got some but probably aren't installed yet. No Black Ice yet, just Phantom...


----------



## JAX

I have a 900.4 too but it's still in the box and dang if it's not suddenly cold


----------



## JAX

"Moving the amp to the Cogent test bench verified my impressions from my listening session, the amp makes gobs of power, and does it with relative ease. Efficiency was excellent, especially at fractional power levels where the majority of us listen, and the P900.4 managed to exceed all its published specs. Frequency response measured ruler flat in the audio band, and extended to over 30kHz. Signal to noise proved to be equally as impressive, scoring -82dBA @ 2V. About the only minor gripe I had was the amp didn’t have quite as much gain as I might have liked, requiring about 280mV of input to drive it to clipping with the gains maxed. This is no problem if you have a high volt output radio, but if your head unit’s preamp output voltage is on the anemic side, high quality recordings with wide dynamic range and lots of crest factor may not be able to get the amp to full power. But any good 4 volt or higher sources will be perfect."


From the PASMAG review. does this mean the gain has to be higher clockwise than normal? I thought that is what someone said.

does anyone know what the voltage output of these 900.4 amps are? I would like to get an idea of wether or not we are close or not on the gains in my buddies truck.


we were also thinking of bridging the amp and turning the gains all the way down to get more use of the entire amp.

when he got it he was going to use all 4 channels but since he installed it we have just run 1-2 . 

it seems a waste to use just half an amp.


----------



## WLDock

JAX said:


> From the PASMAG review. does this mean the gain has to be higher clockwise than normal? I thought that is what someone said.
> does anyone know what the voltage output of these 900.4 amps are? I would like to get an idea of wether or not we are close or not on the gains in my buddies truck.
> we were also thinking of bridging the amp and turning the gains all the way down to get more use of the entire amp.
> when he got it he was going to use all 4 channels but since he installed it we have just run 1-2 .
> it seems a waste to use just half an amp.


On average many amps have an input sensitivity of 200mV(Gains MAX) to 8V(Gains MIN). All he is saying is that this amps input sensitivity requires a minimum of 280mV so the gain structure is a little different than what he is used to. I think setting gains with a DMM or O-Scope is good in terms of getting you in the ball park. However, music is dynamic...the final setting should ALWAY be with your ears...A gain setting CD, track, etc is the way to go...IMO.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...orial-gain-setting-amplifier-power-usage.html


----------



## JAX

ok. I think we are fine. no need to throw out tutorials anymore. I have set amps many times.

I was just making sure this wasnt like a Phoenix Gold Zero Point amp which required a line driver to really pump out the power OR gains maxed


----------



## WLDock

JAX said:


> ok. I think we are fine. no need to throw out tutorials anymore. I have set amps many times.


 Mike, in the test report I think you might have missed:



Written by Garry Springgay from PASMAG said:


> "This is no problem if you have a high volt output radio...any good 4 volt or higher sources will be perfect....the amp makes gobs of power, and does it with relative ease"


But, my point and the point of NPDANG's posts was that "ears" are how we get around the limitations of setting gains with just a voltage setting....I know you know this already...but maybe some that read this don't know?


----------



## JAX

its all good. I am just covering all my bases.

what you guys must understand is the friend we installed this in is the most anal i have ever met. 

he makes me ask questions I usually just dont cause I have installed so many amps I just do it the way I always do. 

I am being overly critical.

thanks for all the input


----------



## ZAKOH

By the way, where is the PDF manual for PPI Phantom amplifiers?

I have one question (it's probably not in the manual). Would P900.4 run stable if the rear channels were bridged to run a subwoofer that's wired for 3ohm impedance? I know that a mono block sub would work better for this duty, but I was thinking of using the other two channels for rear fill speakers. I guess, the 5-channel could also work for this duty too.


----------



## Darth SQ

ZAKOH said:


> By the way, where is the PDF manual for PPI Phantom amplifiers?
> 
> I have one question (it's probably not in the manual). Would P900.4 run stable if the rear channels were bridged to run a subwoofer that's wired for 3ohm impedance? I know that a mono block sub would work better for this duty, but I was thinking of using the other two channels for rear fill speakers. I guess, the 5-channel could also work for this duty too.


I just looked for a pdf for them and they're not posted yet.

http://www.precisionpower.com/html-version/manuals.html

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## WLDock

ZAKOH said:


> Would P900.4 run stable if the rear channels were bridged to run a subwoofer that's wired for 3ohm impedance?


Well, the amp is not rated for that load bridged. Just look at the measured output from the PASMAG review:

*Actual Measured Power:*

@ 1.0% THD+N @ 12.6V Battery
*363 x 2 @ 4 Ohms*

@ 1.0% THD+N @ 14.4V Battery
*477 x 2 @ 4 Ohms*

Maximum Current @ full power, lowest rated impedance - *86.1 AMPS*


IMO, I think you would make the amp work harder than it needs to which will be asking for trouble when the music starts to jam. 

K.I.S.S., No Worries and no stress....

Why not let you fingers do the clicking and head over to http://www.millionbuy.com/list_prod...o_last_AmpPPI_Precision-Power-Amplifiers.html and just get the:

P600.2 (190W x 2) - $159.99
P1000.1 (580 Watts x [email protected] 4 Ohms/725 Watts x [email protected] 2 Ohms) - $209.95

The mono would do about 660 watts @ 3 Ohms. So thats 1040 watts for $369.94. SMALL, POWERFUL, EFFICIENT, and AFFORDABLE! Why even think about putting all that stress on a single 4 channel when amps like these are available today? Grab as many as you need to get-r-done the right way! :thumbsup:


----------



## ZAKOH

Another question.. just how bad would it be if I mounted a P900.4 on a side wall of a subwoofer box in my daily driver? I have heard that mounting amplifiers on subwoofer boxes is bad, but then home come home threater subs come with amplifiers mounted on the box? I don't need this amplifier to work for 10 years. If it could last for 3-4 years, that would be great.


----------



## Darth SQ

Wet 1 said:


> I'd be shocked if it didn't last 3-4 years mounted on a sub box! Hell I'm seriously considering throwing one in the cabin of a high performance offshore boat. I was thinking I might be able to get a few seasons out of one in that environment and I promise one afternoon on the ocean in that thing is far, far more punishing than being bolted to a sub box! I think you'll be fine mounting it on the sub box...


Oooh!
Pics of the boat pleaze! 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## JAX

many amp repair techs will highly disagree with the both of you. but if you want to do it then do it.


If I were to do it then I would have some type of damping in between the bottom of amp and the box. if i were.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Mounting an amp on a box is not the best place, but people have been doing it for decades. The idea is that the parts can come loose. The stress on an amp in a car with bad shocks, or in a boat on choppy water, would be much worse then stress from being mounted to a box. It is not like a sub is going to to put 30+ pounds of force on the amplifier. Hell, may last system had 3 amps mounted to back of my box in my jeep. I took it offloading with my shocks set to level 8 (vey stiff). Never had a problem, although I think some of my parts games loose. LOL If you mount to the box, use rubber washers between the feet and the box to help damp a bit... This has been a topic for 3 decades and I have yet to experience, see, or even hear about a single amp that fell apart do to being mounted on a box. Just more **** to discuss and argue about...


----------



## Darth SQ

Wet 1 said:


> Sorry, this is all I have on hand, all the others are on FB and after a minute of trying to figure out how to export them here I remembered why I hate FB, haha!


OMG!!!!
That has to be the most fun ever on water!!
Twin blown big block Chevrolets!!!!
I wish I had that for a weekend in the San Francisco Bay or Lake Havasu in AZ.

Best chick magnet ever! :bowdown:

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Wet 1 said:


> I'm not going to lie Brett, it is a lot of fun and the chicks do seem to enjoy it, haha!


I'm still drooling.
Really.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## n_olympios

You mean you're able to hear the stereo over those big block monsters?


----------



## ZAKOH

I have a question about bridging the P900.4 for subwoofer duty. Do the inputs require a mono signal on both RCA plugs in bridged mode, or is it fine to run cables with normal stereo signal? In other words, does this amplifier sum the input signal when bridged?


----------



## Grizz Archer

ZAKOH said:


> I have a question about bridging the P900.4 for subwoofer duty. Do the inputs require a mono signal on both RCA plugs in bridged mode, or is it fine to run cables with normal stereo signal? In other words, does this amplifier sum the input signal when bridged?


Like most amps, it will take a stereo signal, or you could use a split mono signal. Your choice...


----------



## ousooner2

Quick question.....does the PPI p900.4 accept a balanced input??

I'm thinking about downgrading my setup as I need to put a ring on my girls finger


----------



## ZAKOH

How are the channels bridged on the 4-channel amplifier? I didn't see this part in the Owner's Guide.


----------



## ZAKOH

Ok, never mind..

I looked up the manual of Polk D4000.4 which is supposed to be similar to PPI P900.4. It says connect Right+ and Left- (either both front or both rear). This is also consistent with the labels on PPI P600.2. For some reason these were absent from the 4-channel model.


----------



## Gary S

Are any of the Black Ice series amps available for purchase yet? They match my car. Somebody please PM me when they are.


----------



## trumpet

Gary S said:


> Are any of the Black Ice series amps available for purchase yet? They match my car. Somebody please PM me when they are.


Talk to Grizz Archer.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Believe it or not, they are finally in production. The original top was acrylic, but to avoid making them bigger, we changed it to aluminum to have more efficient cooling. We are accepting orders now!


----------



## ZAKOH

These look like nice amplifiers. I like the relatively compact form factor (for a Class A/B).


----------



## alachua

Any ETA on the 900.5 and is Sonicelectronix an authorized internet dealer as they advertise? Unfortunately the nearest B&M is about a hundred and fifty miles away.


----------



## Grizz Archer

alachua said:


> Any ETA on the 900.5 and is Sonicelectronix an authorized internet dealer as they advertise? Unfortunately the nearest B&M is about a hundred and fifty miles away.


Yes, Sonic is authorized for PPI only. The 900.5 is expected in port February 28th. Give another week for customs...


----------



## Gary S

Grizz Archer said:


> Believe it or not, they are finally in production. The original top was acrylic, but to avoid making them bigger, we changed it to aluminum to have more efficient cooling. We are accepting orders now!


 - Yes, aluminum is a better material than plastic fantastic for cooking appliances and amplifiers, LOL! Thank you for the quick reply.


----------



## alachua

Any chance channel 5 of the 900.5 is full range? I'm debating getting rid of my stack of JL Slash amps and going all phantom. Running the midbass of a 3 way off that channel would be pretty ideal if possible. 

Also, what is the highest high pass that can run between ch 1/2 and 3/4. I'm thinking about adding a 3" mid and would be beyond what the MS8 could handle while maintaining rear fill/center.


----------



## ZAKOH

alachua said:


> Any chance channel 5 of the 900.5 is full range? I'm debating getting rid of my stack of JL Slash amps and going all phantom. Running the midbass of a 3 way off that channel would be pretty ideal if possible.
> 
> Also, what is the highest high pass that can run between ch 1/2 and 3/4. I'm thinking about adding a 3" mid and would be beyond what the MS8 could handle while maintaining rear fill/center.


The 4-channel Phantom allows high pass frequency of at most 4KHz on at least one of its channel pairs. I assume the 5-channel version will have the same functionality. Unfortunately, there is no away to tell right now if you can turn off the low pass function on the 5-channel amplifier. I could look this up in my manual when I get home.


----------



## mikelycka

When i looked at these lines im very let down. i used to sell the art series and pc series. they were great. i used the dcx but huge for what they did.
it looks like most brands are going small size big power but being top/surface mount board imo is not good if the amp ever fails it most likey toast. i know everyone soundstream,orion, ppi and pg are all playing the game with retro items but i wish someone would make a good products that would last with out going to the elite amp companys


----------



## alachua

mikelycka said:


> When i looked at these lines im very let down. i used to sell the art series and pc series. they were great. i used the dcx but huge for what they did.
> it looks like most brands are going small size big power but being top/surface mount board imo is not good if the amp ever fails it most likey toast. i know everyone soundstream,orion, ppi and pg are all playing the game with retro items but i wish someone would make a good products that would last with out going to the elite amp companys


I'm going to guess that you may not be involved on the business side anymore, since your profile doesn't state that you are. However, if you are, what are your customers asking you for?

If not, I think we need to be 100% honest with ourselves here: most people don't want to spend big bucks on large class A/B amps. Those that do are well catered to with the products in the market. Hell, Epsilon has the Soundstream Reference line for those customers not to mention the PPI Power Class. Most people, myself included as well as many of the people in this thread, want well designed, efficient amps that delivery their rated power in the smallest size possible. Space to mount amps has gotten smaller and many of the fanatics of the 80s and 90s can't give up their entire trunk to their install. There is nothing wrong with changing with the times, failing to do so is what has committed many of the 'great' brands to the history books.

If you want proof, go back and look at the previous threads Grizz created. Many users, myself included, voiced our opinions that we wanted to see a high value class d or class g/h amp in his product line. At first, he held out that it wasn't possible from a volume perspective, but eventually they got made. Now, they are selling out on their authorized vendor's site.

The other thing we need to consider, and I have posted this before, is that consumers as a group are GREAT at telling manufactures what they want. The problem exists when those manufacturers take the chance and build it: more oft than not they end up with a warehouse of product they can't move at a price that doesn't lose them money. Ask Grizz about the Human Reins amps for an example of this. That is this very reason I am seriously considering buying these amps. I and other forum members asked, they listened and delivered. Additionally, Grizz provides a superb level of service and communication here on a voluntary basis. It is that dedication and service that should be rewarded with my dollars, even though I wasn't particularly looking to upgrade.

On the matter of being difficult to repair, that is a bit of backhanded criticism. If it is designed well and operated within its limits, that should never be a concern. The manufacturer provides a warranty of a specific period of time to cover if it does fail early on, otherwise the reality is that quality labor for repair will never be cheap and the cost to replace will almost always offer a better value than the cost to repair.


----------



## SynRG

Well stated, alachua.

I think the market is being driven in large part, especially in these times economically, at every price point, by search for high-value products.

At the prices at which the Phantoms are being sold, amps are rapidly approaching being a commodity item. The ability to work on the units is becoming less of an issue because it will quickly cost more to work on the unit than to replace it, once the original warranty has expired. 

Another interesting phenomenon that can be observed is that the cost per watt continues to drop, to some degree a function of the surface mount technology. What this means to the buyer is that HEADROOM is more and more affordable, which will often gain the listener far more practical value in every day applications than some of the more esoteric features of high end gear.


----------



## Grizz Archer

alachua said:


> Any chance channel 5 of the 900.5 is full range? I'm debating getting rid of my stack of JL Slash amps and going all phantom. Running the midbass of a 3 way off that channel would be pretty ideal if possible.
> 
> Also, what is the highest high pass that can run between ch 1/2 and 3/4. I'm thinking about adding a 3" mid and would be beyond what the MS8 could handle while maintaining rear fill/center.


Sorry for the late reply buddy...

1/2 HPF 50-4K
3/4 HPF 50-4K, LPF 250-4K
5 HPF 10-50, LPF 45-450


----------



## MDubYa

Hey Griz, maybe I missed this but do you have any word on the new INGENIX head units for SS and PPI??? Got a new car now I need a new DD head unit...would love to use one of them for it!


----------



## alachua

Grizz Archer said:


> Sorry for the late reply buddy...
> 
> 1/2 HPF 50-4K
> 3/4 HPF 50-4K, LPF 250-4K
> 5 HPF 10-50, LPF 45-450


No sweat on the time to reply. Of those five filters, which are defeatable? I'm guessing the ch 1/2 HPF and ch 3/4 HPF/LPF can be set to 'off' or 'full', while the ch 5 HPF/LPF are fixed on, is this correct?


----------



## arcadeguest

Post some pics of the black ice amp. PPPLLLEEEAAASSSEEE I have been waiting way to long for these sons of guns to be released. I have saved about 3500 for this build.


----------



## duro78

looks like it finally dropped. Would love to try it but it will probably take a few months for the price to drop so the 4ch is probably a better buy. The pic in the ad is from the 4ch though

Precision Power P900.5 Phantom 70 x 4 + 270 x 1 @ 4 Ohms Compact 5-Channel Class D Amplifier 6.5x11.5x2


----------



## trumpet

duro78 said:


> looks like it finally dropped. Would love to try it but it will probably take a few months for the price to drop so the 4ch is probably a better buy. The pic in the ad is from the 4ch though
> 
> Precision Power P900.5 Phantom 70 x 4 + 270 x 1 @ 4 Ohms Compact 5-Channel Class D Amplifier 6.5x11.5x2


Try to order one and the outcome might be less than satisfactory. If it's not on a major site it's not out yet.


----------



## duro78

trumpet said:


> Try to order one and the outcome might be less than satisfactory. If it's not on a major site it's not out yet.


That's what I was thinging especially since their the only ones advertiaing it. I wouldn't pay that much for it anyway since the price will drop dramatically after a few months

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected]

They had the 4-ch on their site months before they were off the boat


----------



## alachua

duro78 said:


> looks like it finally dropped. Would love to try it but it will probably take a few months for the price to drop so the 4ch is probably a better buy. The pic in the ad is from the 4ch though
> 
> Precision Power P900.5 Phantom 70 x 4 + 270 x 1 @ 4 Ohms Compact 5-Channel Class D Amplifier 6.5x11.5x2


They've had that up for a few months now. I'm trusting that Grizz knows pretty damn well where the amps really are. Besides, with Sonic being authorized and having killer prices on the rest of the line, why not wait until they have it.


----------



## Darth SQ

alachua said:


> They've had that up for a few months now. I'm trusting that Grizz knows pretty damn well where the amps really are. Besides, with Sonic being authorized and having killer prices on the rest of the line, why not wait until they have it.


Sonic's advertising on ebay the remote for the nonexisting PPI source units.
Says eight available.
Lot's of good that remote's going to do. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR

Precision Power REM-5 Wireless Accessory Remote Control | eBay


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Sonic's advertising on ebay the remote for the nonexisting PPI source units.
> Says eight available.
> Lot's of good that remote's going to do.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR
> 
> Precision Power REM-5 Wireless Accessory Remote Control | eBay


Its thoughtful marketing really? You can practice with it so you know the controls without looking so when you get the deck in, its like you've had it for years! Plus its cool to bring to party's and show all your friends...... "look at this kicks ass remote!! Just imagine how cool the deck will be some day?"
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh:
C'mon Grizz...... NO copper on the remote????? FAIL 
Seriously.....where the heck is the deck


----------



## GioSS

Wow, took me a week to read this whole thread. I am looking to swap out my PC2600 for a PC1000.1, but like the poor other chap who couldnt get an answer about the PC class I will look for a different thread.

Grizz, good to see you active on this forum, I enjoyed the reading.


----------



## duro78

Finally ordered P900.4 and it came today. Although I read the dimensions and all the comments of about its size I still can't get over how small this thing is. Its literally the size of a paperback book. Can't Waite to get her installed. Might order another one so I can run my whole system.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## trumpet

My scan of the Phantom User's Manual


----------



## MDubYa

"We want the deck! We want the deck!" kidding. But seriously we want the deck...pleeaaaassssseeee!


----------



## Darth SQ

MDubYa said:


> "We want the deck! We want the deck!" kidding. But seriously we want the deck...pleeaaaassssseeee!


DITTO!!!!!

If it doesn't come out soon, I'm going to have to go to plan B and look at Sony and Alpine just as soon as that tax check arrives.

I need a 771 like yesterday.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## MDubYa

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> DITTO!!!!!
> 
> If it doesn't come out soon, I'm going to have to go to plan B and look at Sony and Alpine just as soon as that tax check arrives.
> 
> I need a 771 like yesterday.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I feel ya, just got a new car and that 771 would fit just right! Actually I need one more 4 channel human reign unleashed as well and then I'm set! I CAN'T WAIT!! Haha Otherwise I'm look at kenwoods 9980HD, but let's be honest I want an Ingenix!


----------



## RMAT

Just got my 900.4 today


----------



## wdemetrius1

^^

I would like to get a listen when listen when everything is done.


----------



## omega48er

hi guys, im in the market (again) for a new set up. currently im running 2 jl audio xd amps the 600.1 and 600/6. the power is not bad but i want more. i really want the HD line by jl but thats wayyyyy too much money$800 for the hd200.1 and anoth 4-5 for thr hd600.

does PPI meet their rated power? 
amps im looking at P900.4 (bridged for front) with maybe Precision Power P1000.1 (still lost on which sub amp i want ) i will continue to use the 600/1 for tweeter and rears. i need to go back to being loud. lol if my car cant go fast it will be loud!


----------



## omega48er

oh also, which is better the phantom or the black ice line? 
im a big fan of jl audio but again its way to expensive 800 bucks for a 1200w amp (even though its sexxy as hell).
im thinking i will give PP a try (if someone can please confirm that they make rated rms)


----------



## passtim

omega48er said:


> oh also, which is better the phantom or the black ice line?
> im a big fan of jl audio but again its way to expensive 800 bucks for a 1200w amp (even though its sexxy as hell).
> im thinking i will give PP a try (if someone can please confirm that they make rated rms)


Google for the pasmag review, yes its makes more than rated power at 14v, i currently run 2 of the 900.4 and am blown away how clean they are.


----------



## Darth SQ

Anyone know where this SU came from?
It's not even in listed on the PPI website.

PVI-789NRT PRECISION POWER 7" TV TOUCH SCREEN CD DVD MP3 SD USB AUX IPOD PPI | eBay

Great price for the 7" screen and dvd.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## omega48er

passtim said:


> Google for the pasmag review, yes its makes more than rated power at 14v, i currently run 2 of the 900.4 and am blown away how clean they are.


Thanks, I will check that out in the morning . Also what was your set up where you used 2 900.4 ??


----------



## MDubYa

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Anyone know where this SU came from?
> It's not even in listed on the PPI website.
> 
> PVI-789NRT PRECISION POWER 7" TV TOUCH SCREEN CD DVD MP3 SD USB AUX IPOD PPI | eBay
> 
> Great price for the 7" screen and dvd.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


When I looked this up I got a lot of info in spanish and a lot of retailers in Mexico and California...might be a head unit built for the spanish community


----------



## passtim

omega48er said:


> Thanks, I will check that out in the morning . Also what was your set up where you used 2 900.4 ??


1st amp channels 1-2 for focal 6k2p uv for front door channels 3-4 bridged to a diamond audio m512 12 in sub. 2nd amp. Channels 1-2 to Memphis mclass 6.75 rear door channels 3-4 bridge to an old old set of Rockford fosgate 3.5 wired in series band passed from 400-5000 for center channels. I want to use them a little bit more before writing A review but I've used amp 1 for 2 weeks and amp 2 for 1 week and. Ow that things are getting closer to dialed in I can say they really remind me of some of my old school amps. They provide the clariy of my old Phoenix gold m100 with the power of my hifonics Olympus and the warmth of my sound stream a class, so yes I am quite happy so far.


----------



## SQLish

Hello,

Name's Mike, long time lurker first time poster. I'm much more SPL oriented than most of the members here, but unlike most SPL people I try to get my loud to sound as good as possible. I currently run Crescendo Pa mids and tweeters in my front stage. 1000c4 on the mids and a ppi a200 per tweet. I have a clarion mcd360 and an audio control eql, dual 13 band eq. I know the majority of you guys over here would think it sounds terrible, but I got it all eq'd out enough to sound good considering what it is. 

Anywho, I put an order in last night for a phantom 600.2. I'm goin to run that on the mids and have a nice little old meets new ppi going on there. When I add in my other mids I'll get another 600.2 if I'm happy with this one and a 900.4 for the tweets. Yeah yeah I know 2.1kw is crazy just on mids and highs, but that's what I'm in to. 

It took me forever to get through this whole thread but I want to thank Grizz for all the good info he puts out there. With the exception of that Jimmy dude you guys on diyma are much more civilized than other forums and hopefully you got room for a not so sq guy like myself!

I'll try to get some pics when it gets here and I'll definitely let everyone know what I think about it.

Have a good day!


----------



## rc10mike

SQLish said:


> Hello,
> 
> Name's Mike, long time lurker first time poster. I'm much more SPL oriented than most of the members here, but unlike most SPL people I try to get my loud to sound as good as possible. I currently run Crescendo Pa mids and tweeters in my front stage. 1000c4 on the mids and a ppi a200 per tweet. I have a clarion mcd360 and an audio control eql, dual 13 band eq. I know the majority of you guys over here would think it sounds terrible, but I got it all eq'd out enough to sound good considering what it is.
> 
> Anywho, I put an order in last night for a phantom 600.2. I'm goin to run that on the mids and have a nice little old meets new ppi going on there. When I add in my other mids I'll get another 600.2 if I'm happy with this one and a 900.4 for the tweets. Yeah yeah I know 2.1kw is crazy just on mids and highs, but that's what I'm in to.
> 
> It took me forever to get through this whole thread but I want to thank Grizz for all the good info he puts out there. With the exception of that Jimmy dude you guys on diyma are much more civilized than other forums and hopefully you got room for a not so sq guy like myself!
> 
> I'll try to get some pics when it gets here and I'll definitely let everyone know what I think about it.
> 
> Have a good day!


Its great that you're into running that much power to your front stage, but in reality, you're wasting your money. A simple 100x2 amp is more than overkill for any tweet.


----------



## SQLish

rc10mike said:


> Its great that you're into running that much power to your front stage, but in reality, you're wasting your money. A simple 100x2 amp is more than overkill for any tweet.


Its 4 super tweets which are 125w each so 500 would work, but I prefer to have a lot of headroom. And matching amps.


----------



## trumpet

SQLish said:


> Its 4 super tweets which are 125w each so 500 would work, but I prefer to have a lot of headroom. And matching amps.


 Headroom on tweeters.


----------



## envisionelec

trumpet said:


> Headroom on tweeters.


Absolutely. A test done by a colleague of mine showed that a tweeter amplifier can clip 125W peaks during normal to moderately loud listening on very dynamic material.

So...nothing wrong with 125W per tweeter...and it might not be enough for some systems. 

(scroll down to *The Peak Power Demands of Well-recorded Music)*
CordellAudio.com - Home Entertainment Show 2007


----------



## trumpet

Ok, thanks for that.

I skipped down to part of the document that discussed crest factor in music. I assumed it was absurd to think that tweeters could handle, let alone need, 100+ watts. Sometimes I need to stop and think before I hit the post button.


----------



## cvjoint

envisionelec said:


> Absolutely. A test done by a colleague of mine showed that a tweeter amplifier can clip 125W peaks during normal to moderately loud listening on very dynamic material.
> 
> So...nothing wrong with 125W per tweeter...and it might not be enough for some systems.
> 
> (scroll down to *The Peak Power Demands of Well-recorded Music)*
> CordellAudio.com - Home Entertainment Show 2007


Yeah but I don't run class D watts, I run 45, home grown, class AB watts. Now what?


----------



## SQLish

Yeah I'm on the opposite site of the spectrum, but I will be doing a strictly sq build in my other vehicle. I have some Ascendant carbon mids and ill be running a sealed avalanche for the substage. Haven't quite decided on the tweets yet but I have have some tangbands and some cdts laying around. Will likely go active, I really wanna get an alpine 9835 I miss those things. 

This install wil be kind of an audition for the phantoms. I may use those or I may use some of the 7 art series I have laying around.

Also on the overkill for power thing, the 600.2 wouldn't be enough since they are 8ohm tweeters. If they made a 600 watt 4 ch I'd get that, but the 900.4 is really the only option. IMO you can never have too much headroom and I'd rather have more power on hand than not enough.


----------



## omega48er

so whats the deal with PPI source units?? whats the pros of them. i was looking into a JVC nt50.


----------



## ChrisB

rc10mike said:


> Its great that you're into running that much power to your front stage, but in reality, you're wasting your money. A simple 100x2 amp is more than overkill for any tweet.





trumpet said:


> Headroom on tweeters.


That is why I have reservations about purchasing another 5 channel amplifier. For some weird reason in my mind, I didn't have issues using a 5 channel amplifier when I had a 4" full-range driver as my mid/tweet and a 6.5" woofer for my midbass driver. 

Fast forward to now, I have reservations about running the same amount of power to both a Genesis 1" tweeter and 6.5" midbass driver. It just seems like a waste of power to split the four channels with the same rated RMS output to the tweeter and midbass driver because tweeters just don't need that much power.


----------



## MDubYa

omega48er said:


> so whats the deal with PPI source units?? whats the pros of them. i was looking into a JVC nt50.


Well, If you are talking about the INGENIX units we are still waiting...not sure what's going on with them but honestly would love to put one in and give it a try...hopefully Grizz will get on soon and give us some updates on those and SS nano amps...I want one!


----------



## alachua

Would the 900.4 handle a 2ohm bridged load? It doesn't matter if it puts out any more power, as long as it doesn't overheat/go into protection/let out the magic smoke and put a curse on my family. I am considering a system using a trio of the 900.4, but am left trying to optimize power to my subs, a pair of 4ohm IB15s. Truthfully, they would probably be fine running at 145/ch, but I'm a fan of having as much headroom as possible.

Thanks


----------



## passtim

The manual that came with mine says their not stable @ 2ohms bridged and unfortunately haven't tried them that way.


----------



## omega48er

MDubYa said:


> Well, If you are talking about the INGENIX units we are still waiting...not sure what's going on with them but honestly would love to put one in and give it a try...hopefully Grizz will get on soon and give us some updates on those and SS nano amps...I want one!


Hay thanks. I might be getting a new car sooner then I thought so I'm holding off on buying any new equipment .


----------



## trumpet

The first of the Farenheit Ingenix head units have arrived to my supplier. The F-761NX was offered but they had only 4 units, so they might all be sold by now. I wasn't planning to order but I think they have other Ingenix models in stock if anyone wants me to check.

I also saw the Black Ice amps listed. Good stuff.


----------



## 07azhhr

alachua said:


> Would the 900.4 handle a 2ohm bridged load? It doesn't matter if it puts out any more power, as long as it doesn't overheat/go into protection/let out the magic smoke and put a curse on my family. I am considering a system using a trio of the 900.4, but am left trying to optimize power to my subs, a pair of 4ohm IB15s. Truthfully, they would probably be fine running at 145/ch, but I'm a fan of having as much headroom as possible.
> 
> Thanks


Can you just run one 900.4 for the 2 subs? Each one getting 450 @4ohms? Just my opionion from owning one of these amp they are not INTENDED for sub use. They are truthfully geared towards ACTIVE front stage more so then anything else. 

Even the 600.2 does not seem to be intended for sub use. 

The 1000.1 would give 750w @ 2ohms and is INTENDED for sub use. 

You could also swap one 900.4 out for the 900.5. The dedicated sub channel of this amp puts out 440w @ 2ohms.


----------



## duro78

07azhhr said:


> Can you just run one 900.4 for the 2 subs? Each one getting 450 @4ohms? Just my opionion from owning one of these amp they are not INTENDED for sub use. They are truthfully geared towards ACTIVE front stage more so then anything else.
> 
> Even the 600.2 does not seem to be intended for sub use.
> 
> The 1000.1 would give 750w @ 2ohms and is INTENDED for sub use.
> 
> You could also swap one 900.4 out for the 900.5. The dedicated sub channel of this amp puts out 440w @ 2ohms.


Both the 2 and 4ch do very well on subs. The crossover operates within the range of sub duty. There's no reason not to run subs

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## 07azhhr

duro78 said:


> Both the 2 and 4ch do very well on subs. The crossover operates within the range of sub duty. There's no reason not to run subs
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


 I did not say you can't run them for subs. Yes they have enough power. Yes the crossovercan be made to work for sub duty but if PPI intended the 600.2 and 900.4 for sub duty then they would have included specific Low Pass option for the crossover as well as included a bass boost like they do for both the 900.5 and 1000.1. Again all I said was INTENDED not that they do not work. I was also pointing out to the person I was replying to that the other two amps might be better wattage wise as well as having things specific to sub duty.


----------



## rton20s

ChrisB said:


> That is why I have reservations about purchasing another 5 channel amplifier…
> It just seems like a waste of power to split the four channels with the same rated RMS output to the tweeter and midbass driver because tweeters just don't need that much power.


I hear what you are saying. Though, I am purchasing a 6 channel amp with even power distribution among the first 4 channels. What I would really like to see is a true “all in one” solution for people wanting to go active. Something that could work as a standalone for 2 way active + sub or as a 3 way active amp requiring a separate dedicated subwoofer amp. 

Ideal Specs:
60W x 2 + 120W x 2 + 240W x 2 @ 4 Ohm, CEA 2006 Compliant
Make last two channels bridgeable, even if it is only at 4 Ohm. 

And either provide excellent crossovers to cross the tweeter from moderate to way high and allow band pass on the mid range and mid/sub bass, or don’t include a crossover at all. 

I know for the general consumer this probably isn’t ideal amp. But for me (and I am sure many others on this site), it would be perfect. Grizz... any chance of ever building something like this?


----------



## MDubYa

trumpet said:


> The first of the Farenheit Ingenix head units have arrived to my supplier. The F-761NX was offered but they had only 4 units, so they might all be sold by now. I wasn't planning to order but I think they have other Ingenix models in stock if anyone wants me to check.
> 
> I also saw the Black Ice amps listed. Good stuff.


If you have the ability to check into the PPI/SS ingenix head units and report back that would be amazing!!

Oh if you know anything about the SS nano amps please could you let us know??!

THANKS!


----------



## trumpet

MDubYa said:


> If you have the ability to check into the PPI/SS ingenix head units and report back that would be amazing!!
> 
> Oh if you know anything about the SS nano amps please could you let us know??!
> 
> THANKS!


Soundstream isn't available to me but if I remember I'll ask about the PPI head units.


----------



## cvjoint

rton20s said:


> I hear what you are saying. Though, I am purchasing a 6 channel amp with even power distribution among the first 4 channels. What I would really like to see is a true “all in one” solution for people wanting to go active. Something that could work as a standalone for 2 way active + sub or as a 3 way active amp requiring a separate dedicated subwoofer amp.
> 
> Ideal Specs:
> 60W x 2 + 120W x 2 + 240W x 2 @ 4 Ohm, CEA 2006 Compliant
> Make last two channels bridgeable, even if it is only at 4 Ohm.
> 
> And either provide excellent crossovers to cross the tweeter from moderate to way high and allow band pass on the mid range and mid/sub bass, or don’t include a crossover at all.
> 
> I know for the general consumer this probably isn’t ideal amp. But for me (and I am sure many others on this site), it would be perfect. Grizz... any chance of ever building something like this?


60w or 70w per channel is pretty weak sauce for any of my uses. I plan to get two 5 channels and bridge to get decent power. It would be one 5 channel per side of the car to get perfect L/R separation:

230w/tweeter (4 ohm-89db sensitivity)
140w/mid (8 ohm-92db sensitivity)
230w/midbass using the 5th sub channel (4ohm-89db sensitivity)

This will hit 110db full range with a flat curve. I would just love to have more power for each channel. 
The JL HD for example would do:
500w
300w
500w 
With the same setup. 

I guess what I would like is a combo of the balsy 4channel and the small monoblock. This option would also be easier to manufacture, just solder to boards together. 

What you are asking requires a fresh board design. No way in hell PPI would do it if even these boards are not built from scratch. You know what I'm saying?


----------



## ZAKOH

07azhhr said:


> I did not say you can't run them for subs. Yes they have enough power. Yes the crossovercan be made to work for sub duty but if PPI intended the 600.2 and 900.4 for sub duty then they would have included specific Low Pass option for the crossover as well as included a bass boost like they do for both the 900.5 and 1000.1. Again all I said was INTENDED not that they do not work. I was also pointing out to the person I was replying to that the other two amps might be better wattage wise as well as having things specific to sub duty.


I run my subwoofer using P900.4 with no specific issues. One thing I like about this amp is that you can actually turn OFF all processing and send a full range signal to the sub. I use a sealed box subwoofer, and I set my low pass filter for it on my stereo. This is supposed to be better because the digital low pass filter is not supposed to introduce any phase shift. Since this is a sealed box sub, it does not need a high pass filter.

However, should you need to use a high pass or low pass filter or both for your subwoofer using this amplifier, you can. Without the multiplier, the HPF frequency range is 20-400Hz and the LPF range is 50-400Hz. This should be enough for most setups. The only minor problem is the 12dB slope. Some people would have preferred using a sharper slope. If this amplifier is used to set the filters between the mids, and subwoofer, flipping the subwoofer phase might be necessary.

As for the traditional bass boost, the one that adds boost at 45Hz, I'd say it's a useless feature. If you play some test tones, at least in a sedan, you would probably hear that the boost at this frequency is superfluous. I would appreciate the parametric bass boost/EQ like its implemented at PPI Power amps, but I won't miss the traditional one. Having a mono block amplifier for subwoofer duty is probably better for the sub(s), but with this amplifier you also get two extra channels, that you could use for other purposes..

Two push _two_ subwoofers, I might have preferred a mono block amplifier, something with 1000watt rating at 2ohms, but this one should work fine, if necessary.


----------



## MDubYa

trumpet said:


> Soundstream isn't available to me but if I remember I'll ask about the PPI head units.


Thanks trumpet


----------



## rton20s

cvjoint said:


> 60w or 70w per channel is pretty weak sauce for any of my uses. I plan to get two 5 channels and bridge to get decent power. It would be one 5 channel per side of the car to get perfect L/R separation:
> 
> 230w/tweeter (4 ohm-89db sensitivity)
> 140w/mid (8 ohm-92db sensitivity)
> 230w/midbass using the 5th sub channel (4ohm-89db sensitivity)
> 
> This will hit 110db full range with a flat curve. I would just love to have more power for each channel.
> The JL HD for example would do:
> 500w
> 300w
> 500w
> With the same setup.
> 
> I guess what I would like is a combo of the balsy 4channel and the small monoblock. This option would also be easier to manufacture, just solder to boards together.
> 
> What you are asking requires a fresh board design. No way in hell PPI would do it if even these boards are not built from scratch. You know what I'm saying?


I knew going into my post that what I was asking for was a bit unusual. Then again, I don't think calling your build "normal" would be appropriate either. (I did see your car on Saturday, after all. Just never had a chance to listen.  ) 

230w on a tweeter just seems crazy high to me, but I can definitely understand wanting more than 60-70w on a mid or mid-bass. And yes, I understand what I am asking for would be a lot more than just slapping two boards together in a big heat sink. Just thought I would state what I would be looking for in an "ideal amp" for my current build, including a possible progression to 3 way active.


----------



## Darth SQ

trumpet said:


> The first of the Farenheit Ingenix head units have arrived to my supplier. The F-761NX was offered but they had only 4 units, so they might all be sold by now. I wasn't planning to order but I think they have other Ingenix models in stock if anyone wants me to check.
> 
> I also saw the Black Ice amps listed. Good stuff.


THIS ONE!!!!
PPI P-771NX
Is it available?
What's the price for it?
Thx,

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## duro78

rton20s said:


> I knew going into my post that what I was asking for was a bit unusual. Then again, I don't think calling your build "normal" would be appropriate either. (I did see your car on Saturday, after all. Just never had a chance to listen.  )
> 
> 230w on a tweeter just seems crazy high to me, but I can definitely understand wanting more than 60-70w on a mid or mid-bass. And yes, I understand what I am asking for would be a lot more than just slapping two boards together in a big heat sink. Just thought I would state what I would be looking for in an "ideal amp" for my current build, including a possible progression to 3 way active.


That's what always kept me away from 6ch amps, size also. The low output to size ratio. If Ppi could make a 6ch with the same concept as the phantom I'd be all over it and be the size of an average 4ch(slighlt bigger than p900.4). IMO that's a market that hasn't been touched yet but should happen soon hopefully. Agreed 230w on a tweet I couldn't imagine sitting in the car.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## trumpet

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> THIS ONE!!!!
> PPI P-771NX
> Is it available?


Bret,

Grizz Archer would be a better person to ask this question, but I can't yet order any PPI head units. The closest sibling out now is the Farenheit F-761NX. I've heard one retailer is pre-selling them at 899.


----------



## Darth SQ

trumpet said:


> Bret,
> 
> Grizz Archer would be a better person to ask this question, but I can't yet order any PPI head units. The closest sibling out now is the Farenheit F-761NX. I've heard one retailer is pre-selling them at 899.


I agree about contacting Grizz but thought maybe you had some new info.
Thanks anyway. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## coffee_junkee

What's so great about the Ingenix unit? I just read the specs, seems a bit thin on sound adjustment features for $899?

Am I missing something hidden between the specs? Perhaps a widget that adds 4 way crossover, T/A, and 31 bands of L/R Eq? If so, sign me up for two!


----------



## 07azhhr

ZAKOH said:


> I run my subwoofer using P900.4 with no specific issues. One thing I like about this amp is that you can actually turn OFF all processing and send a full range signal to the sub. I use a sealed box subwoofer, and I set my low pass filter for it on my stereo. This is supposed to be better because the digital low pass filter is not supposed to introduce any phase shift. Since this is a sealed box sub, it does not need a high pass filter.
> 
> However, should you need to use a high pass or low pass filter or both for your subwoofer using this amplifier, you can. Without the multiplier, the HPF frequency range is 20-400Hz and the LPF range is 50-400Hz. This should be enough for most setups. The only minor problem is the 12dB slope. Some people would have preferred using a sharper slope. If this amplifier is used to set the filters between the mids, and subwoofer, flipping the subwoofer phase might be necessary.
> 
> As for the traditional bass boost, the one that adds boost at 45Hz, I'd say it's a useless feature. If you play some test tones, at least in a sedan, you would probably hear that the boost at this frequency is superfluous. I would appreciate the parametric bass boost/EQ like its implemented at PPI Power amps, but I won't miss the traditional one. Having a mono block amplifier for subwoofer duty is probably better for the sub(s), but with this amplifier you also get two extra channels, that you could use for other purposes..
> 
> Two push _two_ subwoofers, I might have preferred a mono block amplifier, something with 1000watt rating at 2ohms, but this one should work fine, if necessary.


Again I said INTENDED you guys know what that means right? Think about it how many high pass filters do you know that go to 20hz? How many people run bandpass mids down to 20hz. The HPF was made to go so low because it has to to allow the use of a sub. This again is one more thing that confirms that this amp was not INTENDED for sub duty. Sub use was given as a pausible if you really want to. The power is certainly there for subs but there are two other amps in this line that have specific sub features. Bass boost is one, dedicated x-over, and sub remote are some others. FWIW most all amps that have x-overs can run in full range so I am not sure how that makes this amp any better then others in that reguard. 

Again my origional post was in response to Alachua and in that context I was mearly pointing out that the two sub dedicated amps in this line might suit his/her needs better.


----------



## alachua

07azhhr said:


> Can you just run one 900.4 for the 2 subs? Each one getting 450 @4ohms? Just my opionion from owning one of these amp they are not INTENDED for sub use. They are truthfully geared towards ACTIVE front stage more so then anything else.
> 
> Even the 600.2 does not seem to be intended for sub use.
> 
> The 1000.1 would give 750w @ 2ohms and is INTENDED for sub use.
> 
> You could also swap one 900.4 out for the 900.5. The dedicated sub channel of this amp puts out 440w @ 2ohms.


I will most likely end up with a pair of 900.4 and a 900.5, I was hoping to keep them all homogeneous, but I suppose I can compromise. 

The plan right now is to use them in a BMW 335, 900.4 #1 driving the left and right doors, 900.4 #2 driving the under seat woofers and the center with an unused channel and 900.5 driving the sides, rears and a pair of IB15 subs. 

Of course, first I need to find the car. The one I planed on buying showed an accident in its carfax, so I'm back to searching for another car. I guess this is all well, since the 900.5 isn't out for another three weeks or so.


----------



## cvjoint

rton20s said:


> I knew going into my post that what I was asking for was a bit unusual. Then again, I don't think calling your build "normal" would be appropriate either. (I did see your car on Saturday, after all. Just never had a chance to listen.  )
> 
> 230w on a tweeter just seems crazy high to me, but I can definitely understand wanting more than 60-70w on a mid or mid-bass. And yes, I understand what I am asking for would be a lot more than just slapping two boards together in a big heat sink. Just thought I would state what I would be looking for in an "ideal amp" for my current build, including a possible progression to 3 way active.


Hmm, ok I don't want the argument to hinge on my gear.

Let's take the average 1" tweeter. It will probably have a true sensitivity of 88db or so. With a 60 watt amp we hit those figures with 1% distortion at 14.4V if the ratings are true. I've never had a car that does 14.4, mostly 14.1V or so, that's a 5 watt hit. We would also not want to be at 1% distortion on the amp, because once we add the tweeter distortion at high output it's on the high side. So let's back up another 5 watts or so. 

50w on a 88db tweeter would get you 105db or so. Take away 1db from power compression. Take another 1db away for the motor strength of the tweeter dropping with output, it doesn't increase linearly unless you have a well designed underhung, xbl etc motor. So we have 103db. Crapply mastered music, which is most music engineered today has a crest factor of 6db or so. In order to not clip the signal you'd have to be playing at 97db. 

So on average you probably get 97db which imo is unsatisfactory. Sure some guys have horns, then to power them a 60w amp might do. But a lot of guys have 8 ohm speakers so they feed them even less power. In some cars there may be some absorption or cancellations so you have to boost to get a proper target curve. Every 3db of boost requires a doubling of power. What if you want to listen to something well recorded, 12db crest factor like Pink Floyd? What about listening in the parking lot at meets, 12V=less power. Etc etc.

My guess is that we clip the signal a lot of the time on tweeters. Dome tweeters are also fairly inefficient given the small surface area. These high power class D amps are a blessing imo.


----------



## cvjoint

This is my go to reference for power:
General Audio FAQ
Short story: With the very best amplifiers IEC power should be matched. Adequate is usually 2x IEC, and safe is 4xIEC to handle the 6db crest factor the IEC imposes on speakers. So in my case, the IEC power ratings are:

Tweeters: 120w
Mids:100w
Midbass: 150w

At 230w, 140w, and 230w I can't even double IEC power with a PPI 5 channel per side. Too much power would be over 4xIEC because by definition the speaker couldn't handle it anyway. That means over 480w, 400w, and 600w. It's tough to have too much power ehh?


----------



## jpsandberg

07azhhr said:


> Again I said INTENDED you guys know what that means right? Think about it how many high pass filters do you know that go to 20hz? How many people run bandpass mids down to 20hz. The HPF was made to go so low because it has to to allow the use of a sub. This again is one more thing that confirms that this amp was not INTENDED for sub duty. Sub use was given as a pausible if you really want to. The power is certainly there for subs but there are two other amps in this line that have specific sub features. Bass boost is one, dedicated x-over, and sub remote are some others. FWIW most all amps that have x-overs can run in full range so I am not sure how that makes this amp any better then others in that reguard.
> 
> Again my origional post was in response to Alachua and in that context I was mearly pointing out that the two sub dedicated amps in this line might suit his/her needs better.


Actually, I don't understand what you mean by what they are 'intended' for?? Amplifiers are amplifiers, the 'intent' is to amplify a signal - that's it! in 99% of cases, it doesn't matter whether it's a low signal or a high signal it's amplifying. 
Or are you saying the internals are different on the ones you feel are 'not intended' for sub duty? Or they are less efficient with subs? Is the p900.4 a different design internally than the p1000.1 (besides being 4 ch vs 1 ch). Aren't they both intended to amplify a signal the same, regardless the frequency or the speaker they are connected to?

Also, I don't understand your logic on how the crossover's functions proves an intent of an amp? IMO, the crossover just gives more options for use, not less by not being intended for subs - in the end the internals are the same with or without the crossover. This logic makes no sense to me
What about amps without on-board crossovers? What are they intended for? full range only? 

Sure, I can see an argument that some amps are more 'intended' for sub duty, as in the case of monoblocks/single channel amps (like the P1000.1). But to say unless it is a single channel amp, it's not intended for subs doesn't make one bit of sense. If that's true, then why the ability to bridge the dang thing to 450 watts if not for sub use?? (p900.4 in this case)


----------



## rton20s

cvjoint said:


> This is my go to reference for power:
> General Audio FAQ
> Short story: With the very best amplifiers IEC power should be matched. Adequate is usually 2x IEC, and safe is 4xIEC to handle the 6db crest factor the IEC imposes on speakers. So in my case, the IEC power ratings are:
> 
> Tweeters: 120w
> Mids:100w
> Midbass: 150w
> 
> At 230w, 140w, and 230w I can't even double IEC power with a PPI 5 channel per side. Too much power would be over 4xIEC because by definition the speaker couldn't handle it anyway. That means over 480w, 400w, and 600w. It's tough to have too much power ehh?


Thanks a lot for the link! I am definitely not here to argue the point. I am a relative “newb” when it comes to this type of thing, and I am here to learn. That is something I am definitely doing in this case. 

The JBL reference to IEC is the first time I have even seen this in car audio. Though, it appears that the JBL page wasn’t really intended for car audio purposes. I am sure it still applies. Just doing some quick research it appears that an IEC rating (which I don’t know that I have seen specifically on any car audio equipment) likely refers back to a 1972 standard that falls somewhere in between an RMS rating and peak power. A rating that gets closer to simulating live music, but still doesn’t quite replicate it. 

So in dealing with car audio where you would typically only see RMS and peak power ratings on amplifiers, how would you address the issue? For instance I have a set of Imagines rated at 100w Continuous Power Handling (transient music input) / 230w Peak Power Handling (transient music input). I am guessing this would be similar to IEC? It is also rated at 35w Pnom Rated Power input (nominal thermal power handling?) / 70w Pmax Rated Power Input (maximum thermal power handling?). There is no separate listing for the tweeter. Ideally, which of those numbers do I look at in those power ratings and how does it translate to selecting the correct RMS rating on an amplifier? 

It appears that in your example you are equating your speakers’ IEC rated power handling to the RMS power supplied by the PPI P900.5. If the amps were rated in the same way, wouldn’t the IEC rating be somewhere between RMS and peak? Actually providing you a bit more headroom? 

I’ll be honest, as it has always been explained to me, you are pretty safe if you attempt to match a speakers RMS power rating (if available) to the RMS power rating on the amp. Providing more or less power than rated (within reason) could be done safely, so long as you tuned the system to prevent the amp from clipping. I understand the desire to provide amplification with plenty of headroom to prevent distortion though. 

My amp and speaker selection for now are set. But we are always looking at what we want to do in the next iteration aren’t we? The knowledge I am seeking here could/should help me then, and possibly others right now.


----------



## cvjoint

Power standards in speakers are a tricky thing. Some old standards actually continue under many specifications. I'm pretty sure there is a 2003 version of the IEC that says the same thing. Some manuf. claim IEC yet modify the band by using an HP filter and so on. Some manuf. don't have any standards. It's a guessing game for the most part, especially with car audio drivers. To make this a worthy exercise hopefully you have IEC or AES ratings. 

The amplifier CEA ratings are for the full bandwidth but without crest factor so it's a more lenient test on the amplifiers than the IEC or AES on the speakers I would think. Additionally I doubt continuous amp ratings are for 2 or 100 hours like the speaker ones are. A lot of them overheat pronto at the rating. If you just match these numbers I think the amp would be overrated most of the time. I doubt most of them could handle transients at 4x power. CEA has a burst test for this but I don't see it done often.

Look at the similar polks:
http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/pa/specs.php#fourc

Doesn't seem like they can even double their continuous ratings during peaks for every model. Aka, I think to be safe one should have at least 2x IEC ratings available. That is also what the JBL link proposes for the most part.


----------



## ZAKOH

07azhhr said:


> Again I said INTENDED you guys know what that means right? Think about it how many high pass filters do you know that go to 20hz? How many people run bandpass mids down to 20hz. The HPF was made to go so low because it has to to allow the use of a sub. This again is one more thing that confirms that this amp was not INTENDED for sub duty.


You seem to contradict yourself. First you say the HPF was made to go so low to allow the use of a sub, then you claim that this confirms that this amp was not intended for sub duty. I beg to differ. The crossovers can be used to bandpass a sub and most mids (with the multiplier switch). This one will work perfectly for any sub that needs 300-400watts to run well.


----------



## duro78

ZAKOH said:


> You seem to contradict yourself. First you say the HPF was made to go so low to allow the use of a sub, then you claim that this confirms that this amp was not intended for sub duty. I beg to differ. The crossovers can be used to bandpass a sub and most mids (with the multiplier switch). This one will work perfectly for any sub that needs 300-400watts to run well.


Sorry this was meant for 07azhhr


The filters offer a range that are suitable to run drivers within those parameters. There is no "INTENDED" or preferred driver to use. Front or rear channels can be low passed for sub duty, the sub can be BP for that matter. 
Just because an amp doesnt have bass boost doesnt mean its not intended for subs. Its kind of like saying class a/b amps arent intended for subs and class d should only used on subs. No where in the manual does it state what frequencies the amp was intended for. No argument just think a few were having an issue with the wording 



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

cvjoint said:


> Aka, I think to be safe one should have at least 2x IEC ratings available. That is also what the JBL link proposes for the most part.


So if I understand what you are saying, and I look back at my own example of the HAT Imagines, the closest thing I can interpret to IEC rating is the 100w Continuous Power Handling (transient music input). (This if for the mid and tweeter together with nothing specific for each driver.) By that token, I should be looking to power these things at +/-200w RMS per driver? Maybe provide a "little" leniency on the tweeter and drop that number a bit? 

To keep it relevant to the thread topic, I would ideally be running two (2) P600.2 amps to power a set of Imagine I61-2s. One per side? This would provide approximately 2x "IEC" power. Or for some real headroom, I would be looking at two (2) P900.4 amps bridged. Again, one per side for approximately 4x "IEC" power that you mentioned previously.


----------



## 07azhhr

ZAKOH said:


> You seem to contradict yourself. First you say the HPF was made to go so low to allow the use of a sub, then you claim that this confirms that this amp was not intended for sub duty. I beg to differ. The crossovers can be used to bandpass a sub and most mids (with the multiplier switch). This one will work perfectly for any sub that needs 300-400watts to run well.


It is not a contradiction. I am saying that the engineers had hi/mid in mind when choosing the x-over frequencies and the selection choices via the switch. With only 3 positions but 4 options they had to choose to leave one out. In this case they left out the LP in favor of BP or FR (HP I do not think would be an option to leave out). In order to give this amp the abiolity to run a sub since it has enough power and they know that end users will try it anyways, the chose to lower the HP's lowest setting so it would not cancel out the LP setting. Does that make it a bit more cleara as to what I ment by that? 

This is the last time I will say this guys I never have said you cannot use it for subs and you guys have taken this out of the context of my origional post anyways.



duro78 said:


> Sorry this was meant for 07azhhr
> 
> 
> The filters offer a range that are suitable to run drivers within those parameters. There is no "INTENDED" or preferred driver to use. Front or rear channels can be low passed for sub duty, the sub can be BP for that matter.
> Just because an amp doesnt have bass boost doesnt mean its not intended for subs. Its kind of like saying class a/b amps arent intended for subs and class d should only used on subs. No where in the manual does it state what frequencies the amp was intended for. No argument just think a few were having an issue with the wording
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## duro78

07azhhr said:


> It is not a contradiction. I am saying that the engineers had hi/mid in mind when choosing the x-over frequencies and the selection choices via the switch. With only 3 positions but 4 options they had to choose to leave one out. In this case they left out the LP in favor of BP or FR (HP I do not think would be an option to leave out). In order to give this amp the abiolity to run a sub since it has enough power and they know that end users will try it anyways, the chose to lower the HP's lowest setting so it would not cancel out the LP setting. Does that make it a bit more cleara as to what I ment by that?
> 
> This is the last time I will say this guys I never have said you cannot use it for subs and you guys have taken this out of the context of my origional post anyways.


No issues, I know what your saying

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## cvjoint

rton20s said:


> So if I understand what you are saying, and I look back at my own example of the HAT Imagines, the closest thing I can interpret to IEC rating is the 100w Continuous Power Handling (transient music input). (This if for the mid and tweeter together with nothing specific for each driver.) By that token, I should be looking to power these things at +/-200w RMS per driver? Maybe provide a "little" leniency on the tweeter and drop that number a bit?
> 
> To keep it relevant to the thread topic, I would ideally be running two (2) P600.2 amps to power a set of Imagine I61-2s. One per side? This would provide approximately 2x "IEC" power. Or for some real headroom, I would be looking at two (2) P900.4 amps bridged. Again, one per side for approximately 4x "IEC" power that you mentioned previously.


That's probably right on. I'm debating between two 900.5 or three 900.4. Is the increase in weight and system complexity worth it for the headroom? Tough question. 

With the tweeters it depends where you cross. If it's a supertweeter deal crossed 4khz or higher than it probably needs less headroom as there isn't a lot of program material up there. Most tweeters get crossed around 2.5khz, there I think they are equally important to the mids for overall output. Just turn everything off and play only the tweeters 2.5khz up, you'll see what I mean. It's constant output.

One interesting area is headroom by impedance load. Think about the 5th channel on the PPI. If it's 1 ohm stable yet it's connected to a midbass at 4 ohms it probably has loads of headroom. More so than say bridging two of the channels for the same continuous output. Both options are 230w continuous more than enough but the sub channel might satisfy the headroom constraint more easily.


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## ZAKOH

07azhhr said:


> It is not a contradiction. I am saying that the engineers had hi/mid in mind when choosing the x-over frequencies and the selection choices via the switch. With only 3 positions but 4 options they had to choose to leave one out. In this case they left out the LP in favor of BP or FR (HP I do not think would be an option to leave out). In order to give this amp the abiolity to run a sub since it has enough power and they know that end users will try it anyways, the chose to lower the HP's lowest setting so it would not cancel out the LP setting. Does that make it a bit more cleara as to what I ment by that?


I see what you're saying now. There is no pure LP setting indeed. That's not a huge deal, having high pass at 20Hz, even when you don't need, it will not have a big impact on SQ. However, people with subwoofers with fs in the tens may need to look elsewhere if they want to experience subsonic bass. On the other hand, there is a full range option which is a great tradeoff. Just low pass the sub at the stereo or processor. I have seen some 5-channel amplifiers with the designated sub channel having an undefeatable BP option. (That is, sub HP and LP is _always_ on).


----------



## 07azhhr

duro78 said:


> No issues, I know what your saying
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk






ZAKOH said:


> I see what you're saying now. There is no pure LP setting indeed. That's not a huge deal, having high pass at 20Hz, even when you don't need, it will not have a big impact on SQ. However, people with subwoofers with fs in the tens may need to look elsewhere if they want to experience subsonic bass. On the other hand, there is a full range option which is a great tradeoff. Just low pass the sub at the stereo or processor. I have seen some 5-channel amplifiers with the designated sub channel having an undefeatable BP option. (That is, sub HP and LP is _always_ on).




FR works only if you have a processor or a aftermarket HU. I have neither myself at this time. Although upgrading my HU is my next task but for those that will not have this FR will not work. The [email protected] hz will work in place of a subsonic filter so it makes it doable but for my last system I would not have been wanting to limit myself to 20hz as I was running a 15" sub, not that there is much music that goes down that low but I like to have the option in cases like that . I do have DJ Magic Mike and Techmaster PEB and Bass Mechanics on hand so I could supply those lows if I really wanted too lol. My current sub is in a large sealed box so that it can play as low as it can but it is only an 8 so 20hz is fine. I am going ported next week and I will probably move that up a tad closer to 30hz. When I replace the 8 with a Morel Ultimo SC 10 I will be switching the sub duty over to the mono version so I will have all the functions that I like for my subs.


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## MDubYa

Class D Amplifiers - Digital Switching Car Amps at OnlineCarStereo.com - Brand | Soundstream

They say they have the nano's and picasso's

Anyone know anything about this?


----------



## 07azhhr

The Picasso's, I have read, are different but the Tarantula Nano's are the same inside more then likely to the Phantoms. Maybe the Pic's and the Black Ice's are similar but I have not looked into either of those. They have the same parent company but they could have opted for different spec'd internals, but from the pricing I saw last night the parts should be spec'd the same. I do see that the SS 4.900D is rated at 150w insted of 145w but that could be just to make them look different. The 2ohm rating was still 225w and 450 bridged @ 4ohms. In the pics I could see of the x-over areas, they had they same options. Only ways to truely know however, are to either open them up and compare or get Grizz to comment on it. 

I like the looks of the SS's better and I might trade out for them. The back lit top panel won't be a problem for my install and will actually help to make them visible when looking thru the viewing opening.

Edit : Looks like the 5 ch has different specs then the PPI. This could mean they are using different spec'd components or it could mean nothing at all. Either way these are decent little amps.


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## its_bacon12

Those are Tiny!!!! 9" x 4.75" for the 650w Mono


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## 07azhhr

Just looked at those Picasso's and I am pretty sure they are not the same as the Black Ice amps and certainly not as the Phantoms. The Phantoms and the Tarantula Nano's are using the same chip family and board family. These chips and boards are also being used in Polk PAD amps and Hertz HDP amps. 

Back to those Picasso's...hmmm even smaller. They are similar sized to the Rockford Boosted Rail amps and would fit in my storage bins without cutting or building my own setup in their place like I have to for the Phantoms. AND it will cost almost the same to buy both the 4.520 and the 1.650 vs the 5ch or 1ch Phantom or Tarantula hmmmmmmm.


----------



## cvjoint

So what's the deal with the sub channel on the Phantom 900.5? 

The Hertz version of the board does a whole lot on this channel. If you all can get it to bench [email protected] at least I'll be plenty happy.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> So what's the deal with the sub channel on the Phantom 900.5?
> 
> The Hertz version of the board does a whole lot on this channel. If you all can get it to bench [email protected] at least I'll be plenty happy.


Hertz specs different and probably better internal components. They might have opted for a slightly larger sub stage like polk did as well. I do not think the 900.5 is being sold quite yet so a bench test might not have happened yet. I have read that the 900.4 will bench it's rated 4 ohm power so I hope that the sub channel of the 900.5 will do the same.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> Hertz specs different and probably better internal components. They might have opted for a slightly larger sub stage like polk did as well. I do not think the 900.5 is being sold quite yet so a bench test might not have happened yet. I have read that the 900.4 will bench it's rated 4 ohm power so I hope that the sub channel of the 900.5 will do the same.


Yeah, they probably did spend extra. The Polk however is rated at 200w @4ohm so it will probably bench less than the Phantom again. 

So the Hertz is probably the balsiest small format 5 channel. With the right impedance it squeezes more power than the JL HD even. I'm psyched for the P900.5 to come out.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Anyone have any 'real world' pics of the Black Ice amps? The PPI website still has the CAD based renderings. Would love to see some actual photos of these babies. 
And when will we be able to actually purchase the Phantom p900.5 from authorized retailers???
Grizz?


----------



## DAT

PPI_GUY said:


> Anyone have any 'real world' pics of the Black Ice amps? The PPI website still has the CAD based renderings. Would love to see some actual photos of these babies.
> And when will we be able to actually purchase the Phantom p900.5 from authorized retailers???
> Grizz?


If I get some more in next week, I'll take some good pics, I sold all of the ones i had. Them seem pretty good for the money but I've heard other shops are saying they are not getting good reviews, neither black ice or phantom.

I don't know so don't pm/email me just what i have been told by several different guys.


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## RMAT

I've only had my 900.4 phantom for about a week now, but I love it so far. Bought a 1000.1 today.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> Yeah, they probably did spend extra. The Polk however is rated at 200w @4ohm so it will probably bench less than the Phantom again.
> 
> So the Hertz is probably the balsiest small format 5 channel. With the right impedance it squeezes more power than the JL HD even. I'm psyched for the P900.5 to come out.


Polk opted for 1ohm stability and that is probably why the 4ohm rating is only 200 and the 2ohm is only 400 compared to the Phantoms 230/440 4ohm/2ohm. The Polk is rated @ 500w @ 1ohm. 

For the price Audison/Hertz is charging on their version I hope they tune your whole system and email Hertz when they need servicing lol. No but seriously for almost $400 more for only 100 ([email protected] 4ohm) or so more watts?????? Considering that this is not an amp line that they themselves put much any R&D time into (board and chip are from another manu) and may not even assemble themselves....I wonder how much more quality internals you are getting with the Hertz? I hope it is enough to justify the almost $300 extra left over after accounting for the $1 per watt extra lol. Having the controls on top is certainly a plus but I notice that the Hertz line does not have bandpass nor does it have bass boost or a remote sub level unless I missed those. They are 12db and 24db sloped but looking at Hertz website just now shos just hi and low pass filters. So they give less options but supposed better quality and slightly more sub wattage while the other 4 ch are rated the same as Phantom at 4ohm but 15w less at 2ohm and all this for almost $400 more hmmmm. I am not knocking the Hertz in anyway but I guess I need some serious proof that the Hertz version is justifiably more expensive.


Edit : The info I had found up to the time of writing the above I did not see any indication of certain features on the Hertz. Reading the manual from their website I do see that the front ch have band pass and I also see mention of "remote sub volumn" and what looks like it mean 50hz up to 6db. The x-over slopes they show look very useful and do help me to recognize more of a justification in it's cost. I still feel that there might be a lot of cost just for the name "Hertz". I guess I would have to try one to see for myself but I am too cheap for that lol.


----------



## trumpet

07azhhr said:


> I am not knocking the Hertz in anyway but I guess I need some serious proof that the Hertz version is justifiably more expensive.


There are plenty of people who will pay for the brand name, or shop owners who won't/don't carry Precision Power but do carry Hertz and Audison. This makes me think of one shop owner in particular on another site who's totally drank the koolaid, and he pushes Audison LRx or Hertz HDP amps for everyone.


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## Grizz Archer

OK, not do not all contact me at once! The Black Ice amps just arrives and will start filling orders tomorrow. If you have any questions, please download the 2012 PPI catalog from the website... About freaking time they arrived!!!


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## alachua

Grizz Archer said:


> OK, not do not all contact me at once! The Black Ice amps just arrives and will start filling orders tomorrow. If you have any questions, please download the 2012 PPI catalog from the website... About freaking time they arrived!!!


Were the 900.5s in that same order?


----------



## krisfnbz

Quick question. I am thinking about picking up the 900.4, for a set of comps, and bridge the remaining 2 channels for sub duties. I have never dealt with BP crossovers before, always HP and LP. If I want to cross my sub say at 80hz, how do I do it?

Also what are the multipliers? I have never used those as well.


----------



## alachua

krisfnbz said:


> Quick question. I am thinking about picking up the 900.4, for a set of comps, and bridge the remaining 2 channels for sub duties. I have never dealt with BP crossovers before, always HP and LP. If I want to cross my sub say at 80hz, how do I do it?
> 
> Also what are the multipliers? I have never used those as well.


You would do it the same way you always have, using a low pass crossover on the sub channel and a high pass crossover on the other channels. 

The band pass crossover allows you to use both a high pass and a lowpass filter on the same speaker, thus creating a 'pass band' between those two settings. This would be useful if, for instance, you wanted to use the 900.4 to power your tweeters on channels 1-2 and your mids on channels 3-4 while running your sub off another amp. This also demonstrates where the x10 buttons come in, since you would want the crossover between your tweeters and your mids higher than the knob goes up to, which is 400hz, you would engage the x10 button to allow your crossover to operate up to 4000hz.


----------



## krisfnbz

alachua said:


> You would do it the same way you always have, using a low pass crossover on the sub channel and a high pass crossover on the other channels.
> 
> The band pass crossover allows you to use both a high pass and a lowpass filter on the same speaker, thus creating a 'pass band' between those two settings. This would be useful if, for instance, you wanted to use the 900.4 to power your tweeters on channels 1-2 and your mids on channels 3-4 while running your sub off another amp. This also demonstrates where the x10 buttons come in, since you would want the crossover between your tweeters and your mids higher than the knob goes up to, which is 400hz, you would engage the x10 button to allow your crossover to operate up to 4000hz.


Immediately once I asked the question about the multiplier thing I figured it out, pretty dumb question to ask.. :/

So I would have the switch on the channels amplifying the sub set to BP, and set the LP and HP the same?


----------



## ZAKOH

krisfnbz said:


> Quick question. I am thinking about picking up the 900.4, for a set of comps, and bridge the remaining 2 channels for sub duties. I have never dealt with BP crossovers before, always HP and LP. If I want to cross my sub say at 80hz, how do I do it?
> 
> Also what are the multipliers? I have never used those as well.



Set the the low pass filter at approximately 80Hz, and the high pass filter at the lowest possible setting, which is 20Hz. 

If you have a crossover on your stereo or DSP, you can also turn off all filters on the P900.4 since it has a full range option.


----------



## krisfnbz

ZAKOH said:


> Set the the low pass filter at approximately 80Hz, and the high pass filter at the lowest possible setting, which is 20Hz.
> 
> If you have a crossover on your stereo or DSP, you can also turn off all filters on the P900.4 since it has a full range option.


Ah, I see now. I don't know why I didn't even understand that until now. Thanks.


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> OK, not do not all contact me at once! The Black Ice amps just arrives and will start filling orders tomorrow. If you have any questions, please download the 2012 PPI catalog from the website... About freaking time they arrived!!!


I'm wondering if I should make a new thread about the Ingenix Nav HUs... 
If I read right, they are using Windows CE 6.0 

Will the Ingenix HU be able to read .flac files from USB or something? That would be great  

Kelvin


----------



## Darth SQ

subwoofery said:


> I'm wondering if I should make a new thread about the Ingenix Nav HUs...
> If I read right, they are using Windows CE 6.0
> 
> Will the Ingenix HU be able to read .flac files from USB or something? That would be great
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin,
Good idea. :idea2:

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## subwoofery

Here's what I've read on the catalog: 


> Playback MP3, WAV, *FLAC*, & AC3 audio files, or MP4, WMV, DivX, & XviD video files from up to a 16GB SDHC card or USB 2.0 mass storage device. Artwork transfers from enabled device, if available. INGENIX units will read files from a USB powered portable hard drive, up to 250GB capacity.


100% sure, right? 

Kelvin


----------



## MDubYa

subwoofery said:


> I'm wondering if I should make a new thread about the Ingenix Nav HUs...
> If I read right, they are using Windows CE 6.0
> 
> Will the Ingenix HU be able to read .flac files from USB or something? That would be great
> 
> Kelvin


Make the thread!


----------



## Grizz Archer

alachua said:


> Were the 900.5s in that same order?


Nope, unfortunately not. Different factory...


----------



## Grizz Archer

krisfnbz said:


> Quick question. I am thinking about picking up the 900.4, for a set of comps, and bridge the remaining 2 channels for sub duties. I have never dealt with BP crossovers before, always HP and LP. If I want to cross my sub say at 80hz, how do I do it?
> 
> Also what are the multipliers? I have never used those as well.


When using a sub, set the LP at whatever frequency you desire. Set the Hp at 15Hz, which is basically even below subsonic range. If you want more subsonic protection, then raise the Hp to 25Hz or wherever you deem necessary. A x10 multiplier means that if the range printed on an end panel says 20Hz-400Hz, then if you push the multiplier to x10, the range now becomes 200Hz-4kHz. Looks a lot more difficult than it really is.


----------



## ousooner2

Are the Black Ice amps nicer or what over the Phantom series? About to pick up the p900.4 today, but those Black Ice amps looks real slick! I had an old a600.2 (the white one's) & it sounded beautiful! I just hope this newer PPI will be the same or close. Seems to have great reviews


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> I'm wondering if I should make a new thread about the Ingenix Nav HUs...
> If I read right, they are using Windows CE 6.0
> 
> Will the Ingenix HU be able to read .flac files from USB or something? That would be great
> 
> Kelvin


Not only the INGENIX but also the new INTEQ units which are selling and out of stock on some models already. Both read FLAC files from USB or SD cards up to 32g or much higher on a USB powered external drive. But having a little issue getting them to read a 250g USB drive, not that I really care about having that much music on tap anyway... I am currently using the 9.3" INTEQ unit with about 15 different folders of music by genre, and plenty of music with some FLAC files and MP4s... The SS and PPI units are 800mHz while FAR and PA are 700mHz. And if I am not mistaken, the FAR and PA use CE5.0 and PPI and SS 6.0, but I would have to verify with somebody more knowledgeable about video. The nice things about the INGENIX that I really like is the ability to edit all of your folders right fro the screen - very cool. And I like the post-it pad thing for my spontaneous thought that I need to jot down before I forget.


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> Here's what I've read on the catalog:
> 
> 
> 100% sure, right?
> 
> Kelvin


Right!


----------



## adamtwo4

ousooner2 said:


> Are the Black Ice amps nicer or what over the Phantom series? About to pick up the p900.4 today, but those Black Ice amps looks real slick! I had an old a600.2 (the white one's) & it sounded beautiful! I just hope this newer PPI will be the same or close. Seems to have great reviews


Well, the Black Ice (other than the class d Sub amps) are class A/B rather than class D like the Phantoms.


----------



## MDubYa

Grizz Archer said:


> Not only the INGENIX but also the new INTEQ units which are selling and out of stock on some models already. Both read FLAC files from USB or SD cards up to 32g or much higher on a USB powered external drive. But having a little issue getting them to read a 250g USB drive, not that I really care about having that much music on tap anyway... I am currently using the 9.3" INTEQ unit with about 15 different folders of music by genre, and plenty of music with some FLAC files and MP4s... The SS and PPI units are 800mHz while FAR and PA are 700mHz. And if I am not mistaken, the FAR and PA use CE5.0 and PPI and SS 6.0, but I would have to verify with somebody more knowledgeable about video. The nice things about the INGENIX that I really like is the ability to edit all of your folders right fro the screen - very cool. And I like the post-it pad thing for my spontaneous thought that I need to jot down before I forget.


When will the INGENIX be available?


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> Not only the INGENIX but also the new INTEQ units which are selling and out of stock on some models already. Both read FLAC files from USB or SD cards up to 32g or much higher on a USB powered external drive. But having a little issue getting them to read a 250g USB drive, not that I really care about having that much music on tap anyway... I am currently using the 9.3" INTEQ unit with about 15 different folders of music by genre, and plenty of music with some FLAC files and MP4s... The SS and PPI units are 800mHz while FAR and PA are 700mHz. And if I am not mistaken, the FAR and PA use CE5.0 and PPI and SS 6.0, but I would have to verify with somebody more knowledgeable about video. The nice things about the INGENIX that I really like is the ability to edit all of your folders right fro the screen - very cool. And I like the post-it pad thing for my spontaneous thought that I need to jot down before I forget.


Okay... I was looking for a double-din but I think I found it  

Second the post above mine, when will the Ingenix be available? Looking to purchase around mid-April...

Thanks, 
Kelvin


----------



## trumpet

I just got off the phone with my Farenheit/PPI supplier. Here's the lowdown from a retailer:
1. PPI head units are not available yet (old news, but thought I'd share anyway)
2. Black Ice amps are likely going to be available to order next week. These are meant to be a step above Phantom, although personally I think there are too many models to choose from.
3. As for Ingenix head units, the only one I can order is the Farenheit 761-NX. Word is this is one badass head unit for the money. I don't plan to stock this so take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## W8 a minute

I'm on the fence about ordering these. That much power, that small of a foot print, at this price point, sounds too good to be true. But I'll see how the reviews keep coming before I make my decision. 

Oh, and they might be some of the ugliest amps I've ever seen. That black and gold scheme looks "swap meet." You should have stuck with the original red and white lettering on the original PPIs. Luckily they're small enough to hide.


----------



## 07azhhr

W8 a minute said:


> I'm on the fence about ordering these. That much power, that small of a foot print, at this price point, sounds too good to be true. But I'll see how the reviews keep coming before I make my decision.
> 
> Oh, and they might be some of the ugliest amps I've ever seen. That black and gold scheme looks "swap meet." You should have stuck with the original red and white lettering on the original PPIs. Luckily they're small enough to hide.


 
Ya I like the look of the new SS Tarantulas Nano versions myself and will more then likely swap out my 900.4 PPI for a SS 4.900 when I add the mono amp to my system. But so far the amp seems to be a decent little amp. I do feel that it needs a hi-ish voltage signal to make its rated power though. I am running mine off of my stock HU feed thru a simple Scoche line out converter and I just do not have any gain at all to work with. I have seen others state this same thing and I have the same Scoche in my other car feeding an old mid 90's SS ref405 and that amp CAN make its power with the gain less then half way up. That amp was made for lower voltage input so I think that is a good verification of the NEED for hi-ish input signal strength.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> Ya I like the look of the new SS Tarantulas Nano versions myself and will more then likely swap out my 900.4 PPI for a SS 4.900 when I add the mono amp to my system. But so far the amp seems to be a decent little amp. I do feel that it needs a hi-ish voltage signal to make its rated power though. I am running mine off of my stock HU feed thru a simple Scoche line out converter and I just do not have any gain at all to work with. I have seen others state this same thing and I have the same Scoche in my other car feeding an old mid 90's SS ref405 and that amp CAN make its power with the gain less then half way up. That amp was made for lower voltage input so I think that is a good verification of the NEED for hi-ish input signal strength.


I wonder if this is done on purpose for this board design. It prevents users from clipping and overdriving the amp. Secondly, it may reduce bk noise for cleaner specs.


----------



## JAX

How much are these head units going to cost? when they finally go for sale


----------



## SQLish

I got my p600.2 in a few days ago. This thing is nothing short of amazing. It's so much smaller then what it looks in the picture. It is dead silent. The depth is also much better then the previous two amps that were ran (kicker kx800.2 and crescendo 1000c4). It definitely does rated. I just can't believe this class d amp is killing some abs in the sq department. I also have some old art series and the phantoms are definitely on par with them. This was my first try with epsilon ppi products. My buddy heard mine and bought a p900.4 and p600.2 and he is running both now. He had an old school Sony (before they sucked) and a crescendo 1000c4 also on his front and the p900.4 again kills both of them in depth and clarity. It almost adds a previously unheard deminsion to the sound. So nothing it good experiences here.


----------



## PPI_GUY

SQLish said:


> I got my p600.2 in a few days ago. This thing is nothing short of amazing.  It's so much smaller then what it looks in the picture. It is dead silent. The depth is also much better then the previous two amps that were ran (kicker kx800.2 and crescendo 1000c4). It definitely does rated. I just can't believe this class d amp is killing some abs in the sq department. I also have some old art series and the phantoms are definitely on par with them. This was my first try with epsilon ppi products. My buddy heard mine and bought a p900.4 and p600.2 and he is running both now. He had an old school Sony (before they sucked) and a crescendo 1000c4 also on his front and the p900.4 again kills both of them in depth and clarity. It almost adds a previously unheard deminsion to the sound. So nothing it good experiences here.


I have to agree with this sentiment on a general basis. I replaced my PPI 2150am with a JL XD600/1 in my daily driver (test-bed vehicle) and was astounded by the difference in impact and headroom. All while being easier on my electrical. I sold the JL hoping the new PPI 900.5 would be available to replace both old school amps. Unfortunately I'm still waiting on the 900.5! So, I threw the old reliable 2150am back in. 
The bottomline is I am an old school PPI fan thru and thru but, these new compact class D amps (both PPI and JL XD) are real game changers. We no longer need to allocate huge amounts of space for the amps...many will fit under a seat easily. Plus, the electrical requirements are considerably less than for similar a/b powered amps. All of this without sacrificing sound quality.
Having said all of that, I do think the look of the Phantom amps could have been better thought out. They do look alittle "cheap" for lack of a better word. However, I will go as far as to say the Phantoms should have been badged as the new Art series. Before you pile on for that comment, think about about everything they offer. Outstanding SQ, higher efficency than a/b, excellent power levels, compact design and electrical friendly at an amazing price point. They truly push the envelope as the new platform standard for most aftermarket car audio amplifiers.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> I have to agree with this sentiment on a general basis. I replaced my PPI 2150am with a JL XD600/1 in my daily driver (test-bed vehicle) and was astounded by the difference in impact and headroom. All while being easier on my electrical. I sold the JL hoping the new PPI 900.5 would be available to replace both old school amps. Unfortunately I'm still waiting on the 900.5! So, I threw the old reliable 2150am back in.
> The bottomline is I am an old school PPI fan thru and thru but, these new compact class D amps (both PPI and JL XD) are real game changers. We no longer need to allocate huge amounts of space for the amps...many will fit under a seat easily. Plus, the electrical requirements are considerably less than for similar a/b powered amps. All of this without sacrificing sound quality.
> Having said all of that, I do think the look of the Phantom amps could have been better thought out. They do look alittle "cheap" for lack of a better word. However, I will go as far as to say the Phantoms should have been badged as the new Art series. Before you pile on for that comment, think about about everything they offer. Outstanding SQ, higher efficency than a/b, excellent power levels, compact design and electrical friendly at an amazing price point. They truly push the envelope as the new platform standard for most aftermarket car audio amplifiers.



Extremely well said! Especially the last portion


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> However, I will go as far as to say the Phantoms should have been badged as the new Art series. Before you pile on for that comment, think about about everything they offer. Outstanding SQ, higher efficency than a/b, excellent power levels, compact design and electrical friendly at an amazing price point. They truly push the envelope as the new platform standard for most aftermarket car audio amplifiers.


BLASPHEMY!
However, I'm going to let you off easy on that daring comment and just explain my point of view instead of ripping you up like cordwood. 
The Phantoms should have been the new Sedona line deleting the current Sedona offering altogether.
Or to take it one step further, and reintroduce the Special Edition line., but definitely not the Art line.
The Arts were never the entry level price point amp.
Not when they went for $1399 msrp for the Ax606.2 and A1200.2 in 1996.
The Arts were PPI's flagship offerring for the consumer and always should be.

Someday, Epsilon will reacquire the rights to produce the Arts and by the looks of things coming out of that company recently, I am sure they will be monumental!

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> BLASPHEMY!
> However, I'm going to let you off easy on that daring comment and just explain my point of view instead of ripping you up like cordwood.
> The Phantoms should have been the new Sedona line deleting the current Sedona offering altogether.
> Or to take it one step further, and reintroduce the Special Edition line., but definitely not the Art line.
> The Arts were never the entry level price point amp.
> Not when they went for $1399 msrp for the Ax606.2 and A1200.2 in 1996.
> The Arts were PPI's flagship offerring for the consumer and always should be.
> 
> Someday, Epsilon will reacquire the rights to produce the Arts and by the looks of things coming out of that company recently, I am sure they will be monumental!
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR




So what your saying is they should quadruple the price of the phantoms

Just kidding Bret! 
I know any "art" slander will get one banned


----------



## Darth SQ

Somewhere I have a pic of the original Epsilon PPI Art amp before they pulled the production plug.
I'll see if I can find it.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Somewhere I have a pic of the original Epsilon PPI Art amp before they pulled the production plug.
> I'll see if I can find it.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


We all know its on the ceiling above your bed.....no need to pretend otherwise:laugh:


----------



## Darth SQ

rexroadj said:


> We all know its on the ceiling above your bed.....no need to pretend otherwise:laugh:


It's centered in an altar with candles and incense.
Still looking.
It could have been a release from WIKI leaks but I'm not sure. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rexroadj

LOL!


----------



## PPI_GUY

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> BLASPHEMY!
> However, I'm going to let you off easy on that daring comment and just explain my point of view instead of ripping you up like cordwood.
> The Phantoms should have been the new Sedona line deleting the current Sedona offering altogether.
> Or to take it one step further, and reintroduce the Special Edition line., but definitely not the Art line.
> The Arts were never the entry level price point amp.
> Not when they went for $1399 msrp for the Ax606.2 and A1200.2 in 1996.
> The Arts were PPI's flagship offerring for the consumer and always should be.
> 
> Someday, Epsilon will reacquire the rights to produce the Arts and by the looks of things coming out of that company recently, I am sure they will be monumental!
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


A good argument but very outdated in this day and age. I say that because only the boutique-type amps are commanding prices anywhere near the original msrp's of the Art series. But, that is indicative of the industry as a whole. Remember the "race to zero"? 
Think of it like this; how much cheaper could the original Art series be produced for nowadays? Better yet, just look at the price points of the Phantoms and compare the bang for your buck. What do the original Art's offer that the Phantoms don't? The onboard x-overs are better, efficency is up, size is greatly reduced and class D is much easier on elctrical. The only area I can see an obvious win for the Art is in cosmetics and even that is subjective. But, I could be overlooking something very obvious. 
Don't want to start a shyt-storm of debate on this and I wasn't demeaning the original Arts. Actually I was complmenting them. It would take alot of amp to carry the torch of SQ that the Art, Pro Mos and AM series have established. My personal opinion is that the Phantoms fill the void nicely.


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> A good argument but very outdated in this day and age. I say that because only the boutique-type amps are commanding prices anywhere near the original msrp's of the Art series. But, that is indicative of the industry as a whole. Remember the "race to zero"?
> Think of it like this; how much cheaper could the original Art series be produced for nowadays? Better yet, just look at the price points of the Phantoms and compare the bang for your buck. What do the original Art's offer that the Phantoms don't? The onboard x-overs are better, efficency is up, size is greatly reduced and class D is much easier on elctrical. The only area I can see an obvious win for the Art is in cosmetics and even that is subjective. But, I could be overlooking something very obvious.
> Don't want to start a shyt-storm of debate on this and I wasn't demeaning the original Arts. Actually I was complmenting them. It would take alot of amp to carry the torch of SQ that the Art, Pro Mos and AM series have established. My personal opinion is that the Phantoms fill the void nicely.


Ok, agreed on no **** storm.
Besides, you and I are on the same team.

A couple of clarifications:

1-My referencing of the msrp of the Arts was to point out nothing more than they weren't PPI's entry level amps like the Phantoms of today are.

2-Difference between the old Arts and today's Phantoms is the technology of 16 years of innovation, price point, but also asthetics (by far).
The only time I've seen a good pic of a Phantom is right out of the box.
The finish clearly shows every single fingerprint and the heatsink is nothing to write home about.
However, it's best attribute is that the performance is amazing considering it's price point.
Epsilon will sell alot of these, make some good coin, and re-establish PPI in the Car Audio industry.

With that being said, would you agree placing the Phantom in the PPI class hiarchy more in line with the old Sedona or Special Edition amps as opposed to the Art amps?
That's really the point I was trying to make.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## VietPho

Hmm. What is the preorder price for the Phantom	P900.4?


----------



## trumpet

VietPho said:


> Hmm. What is the preorder price for the Phantom	P900.4?


The only Phantom amp not yet released is the P900.5. Did you mean that one?


----------



## PPI_GUY

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Ok, agreed on no **** storm.
> Besides, you and I are on the same team.
> 
> A couple of clarifications:
> 
> 1-My referencing of the msrp of the Arts was to point out nothing more than they weren't PPI's entry level amps like the Phantoms of today are.
> 
> 2-Difference between the old Arts and today's Phantoms is the technology of 16 years of innovation, price point, but also asthetics (by far).
> The only time I've seen a good pic of a Phantom is right out of the box.
> The finish clearly shows every single fingerprint and the heatsink is nothing to write home about.
> However, it's best attribute is that the performance is amazing considering it's price point.
> Epsilon will sell alot of these, make some good coin, and re-establish PPI in the Car Audio industry.
> 
> With that being said, would you agree placing the Phantom in the PPI class hiarchy more in line with the old Sedona or Special Edition amps as opposed to the Art amps?
> That's really the point I was trying to make.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Actually PPI is still selling a "Sedona" series and I think even Grizz would tell you it is targeted at the consumer looking for an entry-level product. 
For some unknown reason, the new brass at PPI decided to make the PC series top of the ladder. That wouldn't have changed even had a new Art series gotten the go ahead. Why that was done is a mystery, atleast on the technical level. I would assume components are better in the PC line but, that isn't certain. It could be a marketing thing only.
Technology and more importantly, production techniques have progressed so much since the last Art was produced there is no way we can ever hope to do a apples to apples comparison. 
The future of car audio isn't going to be found in class a/b. People just don't want the hassle of the bigger footprint and greater drain on electrical. Then, you throw the amazing price points of the Phantoms into the mix and you really have a winner. 
I still think the Phantoms could have been a worthy successor to the Art series. Personally, I would have preferred a more retro look with soft/hard clip indicators and maybe current sensing activation. But, those are really bells and whistles and wouldn't add much to the enjoyment of the music.
I certainly wouldn't consider them "entry level" in any way. It's obvious they were intended to compete with JL's XD and to a lesser extent, the HD series. Again, other than cosmetics they really seem to do a fantastic job for a much more aggressive price.


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## PPI_GUY

All this discussion of the Phantoms and their popularity begs the question of what consumer segment the Black Ice amps are mean't to service? From looking at the website the lineup seems to be a mix of class a/b and D. Is this to compete with RF or some other manufacturer? 
I would still enjoy getting a sneak peak at a real world pic of the Black Ice design.


----------



## ZAKOH

Sonicelectronix is preparing product description web site for Black Ice. For example see here:

Precision Power BK800.4 (bk8004) 4 Channel Amplifier | Four Channel Amp

The specs seem nice. Unfortunately, I am not interested in 17 inch long amplifier..


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## duro78

ZAKOH said:


> Sonicelectronix is preparing product description web site for Black Ice. For example see here:
> 
> Precision Power BK800.4 (bk8004) 4 Channel Amplifier | Four Channel Amp
> 
> The specs seem nice. Unfortunately, I am not interested in 17 inch long amplifier..


I wish the phantoms had the black ice casing. It would have everything small size, price, performance and be pleasing to the eye. I wouldn't change out amps for a longtime. I love the look of the ice series but the size puts it in the same category as the other amps in its price range. Doesn't stand out like the phantom. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## JAX

whats the hold up with the 900.5 ? I want to see how it performs.


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## Bayboy

^^^^^^! Any idea on actual cost & crossover functions?


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## alachua

Bayboy said:


> ^^^^^^! Any idea on actual cost & crossover functions?


Grizz detailed the crossover for us a few pages back, plus the manual was posted on the next page. Cost wise, no idea really. My wildass brand guessometer says expect sonic to have it for about 239-259, but I don't think it's been calibrated recently.


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## W8 a minute

Well I just ordered a 900.4 and a 1000.1 for my Jeep. The output vs size vs price was too great to let pass. Unfortunately I won't be doing any SQ listening with them in Jeep Wrangler but I will be able to judge output.


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## PPI_GUY

The Black Ice amps are now showing up on Fleabay thru Sonic-Electronix. Very tempted to pull the trigger on a certain model!


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## AAAAAAA

PPI_GUY said:


> The Black Ice amps are now showing up on Fleabay thru Sonic-Electronix. Very tempted to pull the trigger on a certain model!


The only question is ... -WHY?-

Why would anyone still want a big old outdated over priced amp?

The phantoms are better in every way including price.

I don't get it hehe.


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## PPI_GUY

AAAAAAA said:


> The only question is ... -WHY?-
> 
> Why would anyone still want a big old outdated over priced amp?
> 
> The phantoms are better in every way including price.
> 
> I don't get it hehe.


Because a certain Black Ice class D mono amp is mis-priced on Fleabay. It's a really good deal.
The size issue is why I haven't pulled the trigger.


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## duro78

Anyone know if each channel on the 4ch has a phase switch? 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## W8 a minute

AAAAAAA said:


> The only question is ... -WHY?-
> 
> Why would anyone still want a big old outdated over priced amp?
> 
> The phantoms are better in every way including price.
> 
> I don't get it hehe.


The same reason some people swear by tube amps. The same reason people swear by vinyl LP's. The same reason your grandpa doesn't like smart phones. Stubborn, bullheaded, afraid of change. I admit I have some hangups but we shall see. I'm very happy with my JL XD700/5 except for the price. Maybe the the PPI 5 channel will give it some competition?


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## duro78

AAAAAAA said:


> The only question is ... -WHY?-
> 
> Why would anyone still want a big old outdated over priced amp?
> 
> The phantoms are better in every way including price.
> 
> I don't get it hehe.


Your kind of right but it does have features others in its price range don't. I see what your saying though they just don't have the same selling points as the phantoms. Not sure they needed the black ice line but I guess they still have to cater to the a/b crowd. Phantom in the black ice casing would of made them damn near perfect in my book as long as they don't have the staggered speaker terminals.

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## W8 a minute

I'm waiting for a company to combine something like the 900.5 in the same chassis as a DQX or MS8. One piece, one install, one solution. Although I would want more power. say 100x4 and 600x1.


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## rton20s

W8 a minute said:


> I'm waiting for a company to combine something like the 900.5 in the same chassis as a DQX or MS8. One piece, one install, one solution. Although I would want more power. say 100x4 and 600x1.


I just don’t see that happening. That is a lot of equipment and money to be out if something fails. I’m all for integrated solutions, I just don’t see that as being a good option. I’d much rather see someone create a modular system of amplifiers and processors. Something that stacks or links end to end in a small package. (Think Massive Audio Nano stacking/linking.) 

Say take the Phantoms with a redesigned heat sink that is modular and make a processor that uses the same form factor. Stack processor right on top of your amp, or link it end to end with a connector piece with the same profile as the heat sinks. I would even be ok with a line of amps that required an external processor and would forgo the on-board crossover completely! 

I would love to see Pioneer take a run at this with their PRS line. They already have one amp that would be the start of a system like this (PRS-D800). If they were to build an external processor with the capabilities of the DEX-P99RS, but offer it at a competitive price, they would have a significant market for the entire “system.” Shoot, they could do two levels of processor (DEH-80PRS / DEX-P99RS) at two price points and cover pretty much anyone’s needs. Alpine (Imprint H_00) and Audison (bit._) seem to think there is plenty of market for two tiers of processor, but I don’t really see too many people looking toward a modular system of amps and processors. Much less amps with no built-in crossover.


----------



## ZAKOH

My heart already almost broke when I read how the subwoofer channel on someone's JL Audio HD900/5 amplifier stopped working. Just imagine what if you start having similar issues on your MS-8-with-big-amplifier device.

I actually wish JBL did the opposite, make a cheaper MS-8 replacement without the built-in chip amp.


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## PPI_GUY

ZAKOH said:


> I actually wish JBL did the opposite, make a cheaper MS-8 replacement without the built-in chip amp.


^^^THIS X 1000!


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## KJ 3G TL

Anyone know if the specs listed on this site should be accurate for the P900.5?

PrecisionPower - Products - Amplifiers - Phantom - P900.5

My biggest question is: is the sub channel actually stable at 1 ohm, and what is the power output at 1 ohm?


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## rton20s

What you are reading about 1 Ohm stability is part of the general Phantom series description. I believe only the monoblock amp is 1 Ohm stable. The amp specifics for the 900.5 list the sub channel at 2 Ohm stable @ 440 watts. 

Hopefully if someone has better information (Grizz?), they'll chime in.


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## KJ 3G TL

Damn, I was hoping that it was referring to the mono channel of the 900.5, but I had a feeling that was wishful thinking. 

Next question would be then what power can I get to front passive components and a sub in back at 4 ohms? I'm most concerned about getting more power to the sub, the fronts would probably be fine with the 70 watts each. I figure this might be a dumb question, but I'm still somewhat new to this so I want to be sure before I make any decisions.

For a 4 ohm sub, I might be better off with the 900.4, just bridging the rears and sending the rest of the power to fronts.


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## rton20s

If you are running just a pair of passive components up front and a single 4 Ohm SVC sub, this is what you’ll be able to get according to PPI.

P900.5: 115x2 + 270x1 @ 4 Ohm / 14.4v
P900.4: 145x2 + 450x1 @ 4 Ohm / 14.4v

If it were me, I would just go with the P900.4. More power, less money and it is available now.


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## passtim

Right now i'm running 2 900-4s, but for just a set of comps and a 4ohm sub 1 is perfect, i use 1 for my front Focal K2ps and the rear channels bridged to an older Diamond audio M5124 and its purfect for my needs. The other one is overkill for my rear-fill and center channel.


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## KJ 3G TL

Good to hear that you like yours passtim. No issues with noise, nice clean power up to published specs? 

And to Rton, I'm debating two set-ups right now. One would be with a DVC 4 ohm sub running at 2 ohms, and a DVC 2 ohm sub, running at either 1 or 4 ohms. If I went with the DVC 2, I would be able to grab the P900.4 and have plenty of power for everything.


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## passtim

Lots of clean power, just wish my HU had a little more voltage. For everyday listening, its just fine, but on those days you want to go deaf, i don't think their reaching their full potential. I feel you need at least 3-4volts to get ya there and my HU is like 1.8v or less.


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## KJ 3G TL

Well that bodes well for me actually then. I have the stock headunit in my 2007 Acura TL, but I will be using an ARC Audio SRI which has 8 volt outputs. Assuming everything else is fine, I think the amp will work out nicely for me and put out all the power I need. 

Thanks for the input.


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## cvjoint

The trouble with 2V heads is that they don't even output 2V as stated.


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## passtim

They do ILS lol:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## KJ 3G TL

Looks like I'll have to stick with my JL 10W6v2 and the P900.5 would be the perfect amp to power it. DO WANT NOW! Haha, very impatient for this since its such a good match for what I need.


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## CTGT2005

Is the 5 Channel Phantom amp out yet? Called Sonic this afternoon and they didnt seem to know anything about it.


----------



## KJ 3G TL

I suppose that answers the question of why they haven't returned my email question about it. I emailed Sonic's support last week and haven't heard back from them. Then again, maybe the people who work there know nothing about when things are coming.


----------



## CTGT2005

Hurry up boat from China...I need an amp!


----------



## KJ 3G TL

Seriously....is there any expectation that this will happen soon? like, next couple weeks soon?


----------



## sbelew

Just curious, on the 900.4, if you wanted to bridge the rears for a sub, or pair of subs, is it a big deal to not have a subsonic filter adjustment?


----------



## trumpet

sbelew said:


> Just curious, on the 900.4, if you wanted to bridge the rears for a sub, or pair of subs, is it a big deal to not have a subsonic filter adjustment?


It only matters if you'll be using a ported enclosure. You want the subsonic filter to filter bass notes that are below the port tuning frequency, which is when stuff gets out of control.


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## rton20s

Unless you need a subsonic lower than 20 Hz, the P900.4 has you covered. The HPF essentially becomes your subsonic. It has been mentioned previously in this thread.


----------



## antikryst

does anyone know if the 5 channel can do a full active setup just with the amp crossover settings?

high pass tweets, bandpass mids, then lowpass sub.


----------



## 07azhhr

antikryst said:


> does anyone know if the 5 channel can do a full active setup just with the amp crossover settings?
> 
> high pass tweets, bandpass mids, then lowpass sub.


The 900.5 has the same HP/FP/BP options for the front and rear channels just like the 600.2 and 900.4. Atleast that is what the manual shows.


----------



## KJ 3G TL

For what it's worth, here is Sonic's answer to me about the P900.5:

At this time i do not show that we have the unit your looking for in
stock. If it is a new 2012 unit we should be listing it shortly as we
are still uploading a lot of new product for 2012 so most likely we will
post it at a later date.

So who knows.


----------



## DAT

Wow , I'll check but my rep told me he has them I stock for shipment


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## KJ 3G TL

Interesting. I just looked at Sonic's site too. Looks like the P900.4 jumped up in price to $230 and went out of stock as well. Wonder what they will price the 5 channel at.

Oh well. I just picked up a used JL XD500/3, which will suit my needs for now at least. Should this come out at a good price, maybe I'll sell the JL and pick one up.


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## ZAKOH

Those of you who are too impatient to wait for a P900.5 may want to look at Boston Acoustics GTA-1105. Some online vendors offer them for as little as $210 shipped! Smoking deal right there IMHO. It has roughly same wattage as P900.5. However, it does not have active crossovers and it is pretty large.


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## KJ 3G TL

Yea, that looks like a solid amp. For me at least though, the biggest appeal of this is the size. Gotta love an amp that fits under the seat.


----------



## W8 a minute

I just received my amps tonight. They're very small considering their rated output. I am a little disappointed in the fit and finish. There are paint runs on the end caps and some small scratches on the heat sink. Quite frankly I don't understand the end caps at all. The end caps interfere with tightening the screws and don't add anything to the amps aesthetics. I got a 900.4 and a 1000.1. I'll have to take some pics next to a PC4100 and a PC1400. The difference in size is phenomenal.


----------



## duro78

W8 a minute said:


> I just received my amps tonight. They're very small considering their rated output. I am a little disappointed in the fit and finish. There are paint runs on the end caps and some small scratches on the heat sink. Quite frankly I don't understand the end caps at all. The end caps interfere with tightening the screws and don't add anything to the amps aesthetics. I got a 900.4 and a 1000.1. I'll have to take some pics next to a PC4100 and a PC1400. The difference in size is phenomenal.


The paint on those bars will be chipped after your first install. If you noticed the pos and neg aren't next to each other either. One upper one lower so your neg wire has to be slightly longer. I actually wired it up wrong I never saw it done that way, a bit of a pita really. I wouldn't of minded paying a little more for a better finish and layout. The performance and size make up for it though

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## 07azhhr

duro78 said:


> The paint on those bars will be chipped after your first install.


 
Not true if you use the right tool . I use a long thin flat blade screw driver that fits the x-hairs perfectly and is thin enough to not hit the rails at all. It is one of the two flats in this pic.


----------



## duro78

07azhhr said:


> Not true if you use the right tool . I use a long thin flat blade screw driver that fits the x-hairs perfectly and is thin enough to not hit the rails at all. It is one of the two flats in this pic.


Just saying the average person has limited tools and would be using a standard screwdriver . I have something similar that works but can't find it half the time but that's separate issue lol

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Offroader5

I also picked up a 1000.1 Phantom. I wondered why the slot windows that I am assuming are only there for access to the connections, still get in the way when using a standard #2 phillips screwdriver. I was able to step down to a #1 that has the thinner shank and had no problem tightening at that point and shouldn't cause a problem with paint removal.


----------



## PPI_GUY

There are some 'real world' pics associated with the Black Ice amps now being offered by Sonic-Electronix and others on Fleabay. They look really nice. But, compared to the Phantoms, they are considerably bigger. Still wondering what segment the B/I amps are targeting?
Would loved to have seen the Black Ice chassis used for the Phantoms (on a smaller scale of course).

New Precision Power BK800.4 800W 4-Channel Class A/B Black Ice Series Amplifier (709483038929) | eBay


----------



## Darth SQ

Wow not bad; not bad at all.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## cvjoint

The heatsink is so simple it could probably be custom painted really easy. At the end it is still much cheaper than other offerings.


----------



## Interitus

Anybody with a p1000.1 running a 1 ohm load?

Curious as to what kind of heat it puts out.

On a tight budget and the 1000.1 would be good if it can stay cool enough to battle through 100 degree summers and no AC while running at 1 ohm.


----------



## sigis

Wow it took awhile to read all 29 pages.

Will the PPI900.4 work fine with my kenwood 995? It says pre amp volts is 4.


----------



## subwoofery

sigis said:


> Wow it took awhile to read all 29 pages.
> 
> Will the PPI900.4 work fine with my kenwood 995? It says pre amp volts is 4.


Yes 

Kelvin


----------



## W8 a minute

Are the end caps made out of a conductive material? I cant tell if they're aluminum or plastic.


----------



## cvjoint

W8 a minute said:


> Are the end caps made out of a conductive material? I cant tell if they're aluminum or plastic.


I'm interested too. If it's plastic they are coming off 100%, if it's aluminum it will come off, with maybe 99% probability.  Basically if it's not overheating without it's coming off.


----------



## Bayboy

Most of the headunits we use are of no problem in output voltage to modern amps. It's been already proven that heading units don't put out the rca voltage like most think.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk


----------



## Darth SQ

W8 a minute said:


> Are the end caps made out of a conductive material? I cant tell if they're aluminum or plastic.


The PPI website states they're some sort of plastic.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Offroader5

How would you mount them if you removed the end caps? Double side tape? Velcro?


----------



## cvjoint

PPI Phantom Class D P900.4 4-Channel 145 x 4 | Easy Way Electronics, Inc.
Minute 1:30 there is shot of the 900.4 innards. Maybe someone can tell if they are different than the Polk. The layout is identical. 

The guys says the endcaps are powdercoated. Can you powdercoat plastic? I thought it melts. 

Are the endcaps needed for mounting? That would be a silly design.

More 900.4 internals, hope it's not a repost:










And the Polk:










Credit: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?128983-When-the-hell-will-D4000.4-hit-the-market/page3


----------



## sigis

Any user reviews for the ppi900.4, P1000.1 and the BK1800.1D?


----------



## 07azhhr

Yes CV the endcaps are part of the mounting design. BUT you can easily remove then and add your own mounting brackets. In the top pic on the upper left corner you there is a bit of blue plastic wrap that is just above the screw holding that side of the mounting bracket. If you remove both screws per bracket you would just need to make/buy a 2 hole flat bracket and screw it in place at each corner.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> Yes CV the endcaps are part of the mounting design. BUT you can easily remove then and add your own mounting brackets. In the top pic on the upper left corner you there is a bit of blue plastic wrap that is just above the screw holding that side of the mounting bracket. If you remove both screws per bracket you would just need to make/buy a 2 hole flat bracket and screw it in place at each corner.


Gotcha. I may just mount it straight to my amp rack. Or, maybe it's useful if you want to stack them. I've had issues with screws conducting the ground from one amp to another and then touching the chassis. With plastic mounting posts this might be useful to isolate the grounds.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I think it's pretty common knowledge that the Phantoms and Polks share the same boards. 
I followed the link in the comparison pic above to the Polk board and they don't seem to have many good things to say about the Polk versions of these amps. 
My 900.4 order got cancelled for some reason so, I'll probably wait and let a few others give feedback before deciding whether to reorder or not.


----------



## VietPho

Any ideas why the box says:
145W x 4 @ 4 OHM
and than it says
225 X 4 @ 4 OHM

Which is it??


----------



## cvjoint

I only browse for a few things in internet reviews of users: does it shut down easily, is there a lot of background noise, etc. Don't trust that it sounds good or bad. The placebo effect runs strong with amplifiers. With that said, I would get that p900.5 if it ever hits the shelves. 

Seems to me like PPI cuts a lot of corners to put these out cheap, the specs are all over the place and the site is a semi-ghost. You can justify some of the price difference to a Polk for a better managed product line.


----------



## ZAKOH

cvjoint said:


> I only browse for a few things in internet reviews of users: does it shut down easily


I have it screwed to the back of my subwoofer box, vertically (angled actually). The amplifier is facing the rear of my rear seat, sometimes with relatively little air circulation around it when my trunk is full, but it hasn't shutdown yet. Granted, I only use two channels right now, for a subwoofer, and it hasn't seen yet some of texas's hottest days. I have an MB Quart Class A/B amplifier installed in a similar position, which did shut down when cargo blocked all air circulation in the trunk, while PPI kept working.


----------



## ZAKOH

PPI_GUY said:


> I think it's pretty common knowledge that the Phantoms and Polks share the same boards.
> I followed the link in the comparison pic above to the Polk board and they don't seem to have many good things to say about the Polk versions of these amps.
> My 900.4 order got cancelled for some reason so, I'll probably wait and let a few others give feedback before deciding whether to reorder or not.


Both of these amplifiers had been reviewed by pasmag. Both were tested to perform like the specifications say. I don't know what else is there to review about them. I have a 900.4 for my subwoofer and rear fill. No turn on pops. Runs cool, I am happy. I personally like the look of this amplifier, but I kind of don't care how it looks in my install because it's attached to the back of my subwoofer box. The only thing that raises my eyebrow is the channel separation spec is kind of low, but hey.. you can't have it all, small size, great all around specs, and low price. I would consider something else for running active front stage, specially tweeters. It's a waste to use 140watt channel for tweeter anyways. The Polk implementation seems like a nice amplifier, but it is significantly more expensive. The P900.4 is so "hot" because you can order it for around $230, sometimes as low as $180 on a sale. For >$350, which seems like Polk's usual price, there are many other players (Kenwood XR-4S, Alpine PDX, etc).


----------



## ZAKOH

VietPho said:


> 225 X 4 @ 4 OHM


That's a typo. 225watt rating is for 2ohms.


----------



## PPI_GUY

ZAKOH said:


> Both of these amplifiers had been reviewed by pasmag. Both were tested to perform like the specifications say. I don't know what else is there to review about them. I have a 900.4 for my subwoofer and rear fill. No turn on pops. Runs cool, I am happy. I personally like the look of this amplifier, but I kind of don't care how it looks in my install because it's attached to the back of my subwoofer box. The only thing that raises my eyebrow is the channel separation spec is kind of low, but hey.. you can't have it all, small size, great all around specs, and low price. I would consider something else for running active front stage, specially tweeters. It's a waste to use 140watt channel for tweeter anyways. The Polk implementation seems like a nice amplifier, but it is significantly more expensive. The P900.4 is so "hot" because you can order it for around $230, sometimes as low as $180 on a sale. For >$350, which seems like Polk's usual price, there are many other players (Kenwood XR-4S, Alpine PDX, etc).


Yeah, I know about the PASmag review. Actually, I think I was the one who posted the link to it one of these threads. Anyway, what I should have said is I'll wait for a few more reviews from actual users like yourself. That PASmag review was incomplete as best I remember due to time constraints. I want to know what these amps sound like running components. Especially after reading the reviews of some of the users on the Polk board. Mainly because the two series are *exactly* the same board stuffed into different chassis.
I thought I had a P900.4 ordered at $182.00 but, the order got cancelled. If they turn out to be everything we _hope_ they are, I'll catch 'em on sale again and pick one up in the future.


----------



## trumpet

I'm not a Regular Joe but I did post a brief review on the site in my signature. For what it's worth I do think the P900.4 sounds fantastic. I'm not using the built-in crossovers.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Wondering if the new Hertz HDP Series is using the same board as PPI and Polk? PASmag just tested the HDP5 and the actual measured output is very close to the rated output of both the Polk and PPI. 

PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Hertz HDP5 Amplifier

Hertz website amplifier catalog-
hertzcaraudio.co.in


----------



## rton20s

Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but I read somewhere that the Hertz HDP were in fact the same board. However, it is supposed to use some nicer components. Not to mention the different configuration on he controls.


----------



## RMAT

I have had my 900.4 for ~1month now and recently added a 1000.1. I couldn't be happier with them. I don't know if it's the amps or the hertz 163's or the combo but I haven't heard a system with the "Balls" that my current system has. I have just two channels running the 163's in passive . So they are only getting ~145 what's per side and it's more than enough power. My installers were able to hide the amps and after pounding on them for hours I haven't seen the least amount of trouble with them and they are very efficient. No dimmage and I'm using stock electrical with no upgrades (big 3). So far I couldn't ask for more. I will soon be going active using the 900.4 600.2 and 1000.1.


----------



## ZAKOH

rton20s said:


> Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but I read somewhere that the Hertz HDP were in fact the same board. However, it is supposed to use some nicer components. Not to mention the different configuration on he controls.


One interesting thing about HDP amplifiers, is that HDP4 is a lot more powerful than P900.4, specially when channels are bridged. Its output was measured 4x196watts at 4ohms, 4x329watts at 2ohms. Its one of the few 4-channel amplifiers with >600watts output when bridged. The 5-channel version does not seem to be 'underrated' as much as HDP4.


----------



## adamtwo4

Just got my new amps and I have a question for those who have installed them....the description says 8 gauge power, but I tried and can just squeeze 4 gauge in. Going to order my power distribution block equipment so...what have people who have installed been using for their power/ground connections, 4 or 8 gauge?


----------



## Darth SQ

ZAKOH said:


> That's a typo. 225watt rating is for 2ohms.


Someone needs to proof read the physical materials and the website.
Lots of typos and mixed up links on everything.

You would think that would be the easy part. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Offroader5

I was able to fit 4 gauge into the amp without the use of the adapter they provide...so I figured since it fit, might as well use it.



adamtwo4 said:


> Just got my new amps and I have a question for those who have installed them....the description says 8 gauge power, but I tried and can just squeeze 4 gauge in. Going to order my power distribution block equipment so...what have people who have installed been using for their power/ground connections, 4 or 8 gauge?


----------



## sigis

Let me know what you think of them. My 900.4 is being delivered tomorrow. Thinking of getting the P1000.1 or the BK 1300 or 1800 for subs. Still haven't decided on that though.


----------



## cvjoint

ZAKOH said:


> One interesting thing about HDP amplifiers, is that HDP4 is a lot more powerful than P900.4, specially when channels are bridged. Its output was measured 4x196watts at 4ohms, 4x329watts at 2ohms. Its one of the few 4-channel amplifiers with >600watts output when bridged. The 5-channel version does not seem to be 'underrated' as much as HDP4.


Do you have a link for this test?


----------



## W8 a minute

cvjoint said:


> Do you have a link for this test?


The link is underlined in his post that you quoted. Click on it


----------



## cvjoint

W8 a minute said:


> The link is underlined in his post that you quoted. Click on it


LOL glad it's safe. I put my cursor over it before and it looked risky.


----------



## ousooner2

I've only been listening to the P900.4 for a few days now. It's driving the Image Dynamics cx62 mids and xs28 tweeters. Previously I had the Sundown 100.4 on them. 

So far this amp is very quiet, no turn on/off pop, pretty decent separation and definitely has power. I feel like this is just as clean and powerful as the Sundown I had. I can't really say TOO much as I just installed everything and only been listening for 2 days now. I would say without a doubt to go for this amp. Great buy


----------



## CrimsonCountry

Good to hear. I've been watching these amps for a while. I love their small size and they seem to do rated from what little reviews i've read. My Massive CK6V just arrived yesterday so time to amp them. I'm pretty sure i'm going with one of the phantom amps. 

My only holdup is which one(600.2, 900.4, or 900.5) and do I need/want to go active...maybe some of you experienced guys could chime in. Also, I may be adding a sub later so the 4 ch or 5 ch may be more beneficial down the road. I want to make sure the CK6V are getting enough power.



ousooner2 said:


> ...pretty decent separation and definitely has power...


Can you expand on this comment? I'm still new to all this but wouldn't the channel seperation need to be well defined in order to justify going active with this amp? I tend to overanalyze things so disregard if i'm reading too much into it:laugh:


----------



## CrimsonCountry

ousooner2 said:


> I've only been listening to the P900.4 for a few days now. It's driving the Image Dynamics cx62 mids and xs28 tweeters. Previously I had the Sundown 100.4 on them.
> 
> So far this amp is very quiet, no turn on/off pop, pretty decent separation and definitely has power. I feel like this is just as clean and powerful as the Sundown I had. I can't really say TOO much as I just installed everything and only been listening for 2 days now. I would say without a doubt to go for this amp. Great buy


Good to hear. I've been watching these amps for a while. I'm finally about to pull the trigger on an amp now that my Massive CK6V came in yesterday.
Given their low price and ability to do rated (from what little reviews i've read), they seem to be a no-brainer at this price level. Heck, probably even a few levels up. 

Now, my holdup: Get 600.2 for $159 and run massives passive OR 900.4 for $199 and go for active with ability to bridge rear for possible sub (currently "sub-less"). I know the older CK6 Stg IIIs tweeter needed more taming but still not sure the -3db passive setting will be enough control the new ones. Hmmm...decisions decisions.


----------



## JAX

Has anyone bought a black ice amp?

Where does blAck ice fall in the pack of ppi/ sound stream lineup ?

It was power class / phantom / Sedona . What is it now ? What does black ice replace? 

I may have read this in this humongous thread but wasn't looking for that at the time .


Contemplating getting rid of the helix and running these. I had a 900.4 but never installed. 

My neighbors 900.4/1000.1 combo is still going fine after few months now


----------



## PPI_GUY

JAX said:


> Has anyone bought a black ice amp?
> 
> Where does blAck ice fall in the pack of ppi/ sound stream lineup ?
> 
> It was power class / phantom / Sedona . What is it now ? What does black ice replace?
> 
> I may have read this in this humongous thread but wasn't looking for that at the time .
> 
> 
> Contemplating getting rid of the helix and running these. I had a 900.4 but never installed.
> 
> My neighbors 900.4/1000.1 combo is still going fine after few months now


I don't know if the Black Ice amps actually _replace_ anything. PPI is still making and selling the Power Class and Sedona as well. I know the PC is still the top dog and the Sedona is the entry level. The Black Ice amps 'might' be the next step up the ladder due to the BLT add-on? I do know they aren't compact like the Phantoms but, offer a couple of class D subwoofer amps.


----------



## ZAKOH

My understanding is that Power Class is the high end product, Sedona is budget product, Black Ice sits in between. Phantom is for mini amplifier needs.


----------



## SQfreak

VietPho said:


> Any ideas why the box says:
> 145W x 4 @ 4 OHM
> and than it says
> 225 X 4 @ 4 OHM
> 
> Which is it??




Maybe this will help:

RMS Power Rating (14.4V):

4 ohms: 145 watts x 4 chan.
2 ohms: 225 watts x 4 chan.
Bridged, 4 ohms: 450 watts x 2 chan.

RMS Power Rating (12V):

4 ohms: 100 watts x 4 chan.
2 ohms: 150 watts x 4 chan.
Bridged, 4 ohms: 300 watts x 2 chan.


----------



## JAX

ok, well I wish I could find the one person on the planet running the Power Class amps.

I have asked over and over, have not found one person who uses them.

they are big but the specs looked great. I would have maybe tried one if a)were not so expensive and more importantly b) I could find some people that actually use them

this is why I wondered where the ICE was in the spectrum and I thought maybe it was going bye bye. guess not.


----------



## 07azhhr

adamtwo4 said:


> Just got my new amps and I have a question for those who have installed them....the description says 8 gauge power, but I tried and can just squeeze 4 gauge in. Going to order my power distribution block equipment so...what have people who have installed been using for their power/ground connections, 4 or 8 gauge?


 
I have 4 gauge on mine. I think they are 8 gauge speaker direct connect and 4 gauge pwr/grnd direct connect with the adapter to run 1/0. I think the inclusion of power in the 8 gauge statement on the box was a misprint like the 225w @ 4ohms. I think they saved money by not employing a proof reader. . Polk seams to have the same problem.


----------



## cvjoint

I need the 5 channel now.


----------



## rc10mike

Am I the only one that used to like PPI, but doesnt seem the least bit impressed with their latest offerings?

Seems like this "new PPI" stuff might be the new forum boner....?


----------



## cvjoint

rc10mike said:


> Am I the only one that used to like PPI, but doesnt seem the least bit impressed with their latest offerings?
> 
> Seems like this "new PPI" stuff might be the new forum boner....?


It's just good bang for the buck. Make them all cost the same and I'd get the JL HD. Although that Kenwood is supposed to have better burst performance.


----------



## JAX

cvjoint said:


> Although that Kenwood is supposed to have better burst performance.



more info on that. which kenwood?


----------



## cvjoint

JAX said:


> more info on that. which kenwood?


Excelon XR5. It claims to have enough juice for 1,200w bursts. I think JL and Alpine units as well as these PPIs don't really have any headroom left after they make their rated continuous power. Maybe most of the advancements in the last few years have been made by converting headroom to continuous power. That's fine by me but it's unrealistic to say today's 150w x 4 PPI amp is twice as powerful as say the Polk Momos of yesterday rated 75w x4. Those puppies had 975w of headroom, so unless you requested more than 75w continous it handled the peaks just as well. 

To bad manuf. don't use the CEA burst methods more often. I think most headroom is squeezed out in these modern design, so there isn't much more to be gained for the big numbers to be taped on the boxes.


----------



## RMAT

rc10mike said:


> Am I the only one that used to like PPI, but doesnt seem the least bit impressed with their latest offerings?
> 
> Seems like this "new PPI" stuff might be the new forum boner....?


It's funny to hear when people call stuff forum boner's. I guess if you talk about something on a forum about something you've tried and like it's a forum boner. Most people who call it a boner haven't tried them or even tried to go listen to them.

If they were horrible I'm sure you would hear way more noise about them. 

Anyone near Alpharetta, GA that wants to "hear" mine you're welcome to. 

The funny thing about mine is that you would never know they were there due to them being small enough to fit just about anywhere, they put out tons of power efficiently, don't thermal due to heat, and fit my applications perfectly. 

Wait, the more I talk about....yup...got a chubby. Guess I see your point.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I thought "burst mode" was really just klipping heh... klipping isn't so bad anyways in moderation.


----------



## ousooner2

People with this amp..does yours get pretty hot?? 

I'm wondering if I need to send mine back as there's a small hump on top that I just realized. Also, one of the set screws has already stripped in the hole. Not a huge deal unless if it's the actual set screw & not the hole that's somehow stripped.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> Excelon XR5. It claims to have enough juice for 1,200w bursts. I think JL and Alpine units as well as these PPIs don't really have any headroom left after they make their rated continuous power. Maybe most of the advancements in the last few years have been made by converting headroom to continuous power. That's fine by me but it's unrealistic to say today's 150w x 4 PPI amp is twice as powerful as say the Polk Momos of yesterday rated 75w x4. Those puppies had 975w of headroom, so unless you requested more than 75w continous it handled the peaks just as well.
> 
> To bad manuf. don't use the CEA burst methods more often. I think most headroom is squeezed out in these modern design, so there isn't much more to be gained for the big numbers to be taped on the boxes.


This is kinda how I feel with the JL's and Alpines putting out max rms at all ohm loads. Makes me wonder what they are giving up to do this. 

BUT I have to add that I am 38 and was really into car audio in the 80's and early 90's when an amps were more then likely to double wattage as you halved the ohms. 

These Phantoms, like the others using the same chips/boards, get pretty close to doubling their power. 

I like my Phantom but I know it is not the only amp out there that I would like. I also know it is not the best amp inthe world but it is a nicely priced amp for the size and power. Now my old school SS Ref405, that makes me .


----------



## trumpet

ousooner2 said:


> People with this amp..does yours get pretty hot??


I don't even think about my P900.4 so I definitely don't check if it runs hot. It probably shouldn't be hot to the touch though.


----------



## ousooner2

trumpet said:


> I don't even think about my P900.4 so I definitely don't check if it runs hot. It probably shouldn't be hot to the touch though.


Will you check for me the next time you go somewhere? Mine was pretty damn hot to the touch from running it for about 10 minutes and not all that hard. Starting to wonder if this little bump in the middle of it isn't supposed to be there. 

I swear...nothing can go my way. I buy an Audison amp and it's in protect mode. My luck blows sometimes :mean:


----------



## 07azhhr

ousooner2 said:


> People with this amp..does yours get pretty hot??
> 
> I'm wondering if I need to send mine back as there's a small hump on top that I just realized. Also, one of the set screws has already stripped in the hole. Not a huge deal unless if it's the actual set screw & not the hole that's somehow stripped.


 
I run my 900.4 at 4ohms on ch's 1-2 and 2 ohms on the rear with the rear gain at max due to my anemic input voltage. My amp never gets hot and I like to listen to music loud. It never even seems to get warmer then it is when it is off. But again I have such a low input voltage that I do not think I am getting full wattage out of it.


----------



## ousooner2

07azhhr said:


> I run my 900.4 at 4ohms on ch's 1-2 and 2 ohms on the rear with the rear gain at max due to my anemic input voltage. My amp never gets hot and I like to listen to music loud. It never even seems to get warmer then it is when it is off. But again I have such a low input voltage that I do not think I am getting full wattage out of it.


I'm also running 2 channels at 4 ohms and 2 channels at 2 ohms. 2 are at about 1/4 gain (maybe not even) and the other just under 1/2. Mine can get very hot to the touch. I should be seeing around 5v inputs with the 3sixty.2 also...but who knows if I'm really getting that.


----------



## 07azhhr

You should certainly be getting more voltage than I am. I am running my factory deck to a simple Schoche 4 way line out converter. It does not step up the voltage at all. But with my amp not even getting warm I wonder why your's would get hot to the touch in a mere 10 minutes???. 

Can you have it warranteed?


----------



## ousooner2

07azhhr said:


> You should certainly be getting more voltage than I am. I am running my factory deck to a simple Schoche 4 way line out converter. It does not step up the voltage at all. But with my amp not even getting warm I wonder why your's would get hot to the touch in a mere 10 minutes???.
> 
> Can you have it warranteed?


Yeah I just purchased it through Sonic not too long ago. Worries me that they're out of the amp though..


----------



## W8 a minute

cvjoint said:


> that Kenwood is supposed to have better burst performance.


So does an arc welder but I wouldn't want to listen to it.

People put too much stock in power ratings. Put two identical amps for sale in the classifieds and if one has a birth certificate with 20 more watts everyone will buy the one with the higher wattage first. God knows they can't possibly hear that 20 watts but somehow think they have a "better" amplifier. 

FWIW a lot of those Kicker amps with the extremely high birth sheets were the first ones to go up in smoke compared to identical amps with lower birth sheets. So if your 700 watt amp has a 1000 watt birth sheet you're probably holding s ticking time bomb because something is out of tolerance and should be addressed.


----------



## cvjoint

W8 a minute said:


> So does an arc welder but I wouldn't want to listen to it.
> 
> People put too much stock in power ratings. Put two identical amps for sale in the classifieds and if one has a birth certificate with 20 more watts everyone will buy the one with the higher wattage first. God knows they can't possibly hear that 20 watts but somehow think they have a "better" amplifier.
> 
> FWIW a lot of those Kicker amps with the extremely high birth sheets were the first ones to go up in smoke compared to identical amps with lower birth sheets. So if your 700 watt amp has a 1000 watt birth sheet you're probably holding s ticking time bomb because something is out of tolerance and should be addressed.


This has nothing to do with burst tests. I don't ever remember seeing burst tests on birth sheets. 

There are two illogical statements too. All else equal the amp that makes 20w more is a better amp. It's a dominant strategy to pick it and doing otherwise is irrational. Two, if you think more powerful amplifiers are out of tolerance, the opposite of what is actually true, than your dominant strategy is to pick an amplifier with 0 watts + epsilon.


----------



## W8 a minute

cvjoint said:


> This has nothing to do with burst tests. I don't ever remember seeing burst tests on birth sheets.
> 
> There are two illogical statements too. All else equal the amp that makes 20w more is a better amp. It's a dominant strategy to pick it and doing otherwise is irrational. Two, if you think more powerful amplifiers are out of tolerance, the opposite of what is actually true, than your dominant strategy is to pick an amplifier with 0 watts + epsilon.


I won't get into and argument about tolerance and how it is given as a +/- specification or how max burst power output has nothing to do with sound quality. I'll just nod my head and agree so we can move on.


----------



## subwoofery

cvjoint said:


> This has nothing to do with burst tests. I don't ever remember seeing burst tests on birth sheets.
> 
> There are two illogical statements too. All else equal the amp that makes 20w more is a better amp. It's a dominant strategy to pick it and doing otherwise is irrational. Two, if you think more powerful amplifiers are out of tolerance, the opposite of what is actually true, than your dominant strategy is to pick an amplifier with 0 watts + epsilon.


My Milbert is closer to 0 watts than most other amps... Does that make me illogical?  

Kelvin


----------



## cvjoint

subwoofery said:


> My Milbert is closer to 0 watts than most other amps... Does that make me illogical?
> 
> Kelvin


Depends, was it a gift? Because, I'll accept it as one.


----------



## subwoofery

cvjoint said:


> Depends, was it a gift? Because, I'll accept it as one.


Almost... Paid a 1/4 of the price for a NIB one  

Kelvin


----------



## duro78

cvjoint said:


> It's just good bang for the buck. Make them all cost the same and I'd get the JL HD. Although that Kenwood is supposed to have better burst performance.


Agreed, imo the performance increase over the 900.4 doesn't warrant the price tag of the hd not even close. i honestly think if the 900.4 board was put in the hd case most loyal hd fans probably wouldn't even notice a difference.


----------



## cvjoint

duro78 said:


> Agreed, imo the performance increase over the 900.4 doesn't warrant the price tag of the hd not even close. i honestly think if the 900.4 board was put in the hd case most loyal hd fans probably wouldn't even notice a difference.


That's probably true, or the other way around with the HD board in the PPI. 

I'm buying the 1000.1 and 900.4 tomorrow to try them out. I may do a level matched blindfold test to compare them against my Clarions. The winner stays in the car.


----------



## cvjoint

The price dropped $10 on the 900.4 and apparently all you cheap people bought them all.  I went to the headquarters to pick one up and the floor was clean. 

On the other hand I toured Epsilon and that place is massive. More electronics than I've ever seen.


----------



## duro78

cvjoint said:


> The price dropped $10 on the 900.4 and apparently all you cheap people bought them all.  I went to the headquarters to pick one up and the floor was clean.
> 
> On the other hand I toured Epsilon and that place is massive. More electronics than I've ever seen.


Trumpet has them for $199 check him out I just ordered one. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## trumpet

duro78 said:


> Trumpet has them for $199 check him out I just ordered one.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


It looks like I need to update my site. I ordered all the P900.4s I could get from my source and if PPI is out of them too we could all be in for a long wait.

edit: P900.4 is officially on backorder.


----------



## JAX

Still some on efay.


----------



## ousooner2

Anyone have trouble with the set screws in the PPI?? One of mine just won't tighten anymore. I'm having some serious issues with my amps lately!! Hopefully it's just a stripped set screws b/c I don't know how to secure speaker wire in there without a set screw

With this and the small bulge in mine I'd just send it back to Sonic, but if they're on backorder...i'll wait


----------



## 07azhhr

ousooner2 said:


> Anyone have trouble with the set screws in the PPI?? One of mine just won't tighten anymore. I'm having some serious issues with my amps lately!! Hopefully it's just a stripped set screws b/c I don't know how to secure speaker wire in there without a set screw
> 
> With this and the small bulge in mine I'd just send it back to Sonic, but if they're on backorder...i'll wait


 
I have unscrewed/rescrewed my rear channels atleast 10 times in that past 2 weeks and I am not having any issue with my set screws. My local Lowes has a very nice selection of set screws and HD might as well. Try your local hardwear places if you want to get a new one. But with your overheating issue I would send it back in.


----------



## passtim

ousooner2 said:


> Anyone have trouble with the set screws in the PPI?? One of mine just won't tighten anymore. I'm having some serious issues with my amps lately!! Hopefully it's just a stripped set screws b/c I don't know how to secure speaker wire in there without a set screw
> 
> With this and the small bulge in mine I'd just send it back to Sonic, but if they're on backorder...i'll wait


It might be they prefer burnt orange to red but who knows. Lol. No, I've had mine for 2 months and driven them pretty hard and they've never gotten more than Luke warm, but I have an easy 4 ohm load on the 2. I agree the screws are a pos. I thought about replacing them with torx head screws but right now every thing hold solid and I'm finally through tweaking.


----------



## JAX

spent some more time in neighbors truck over weekend. he pounded me out of the truck and neither of his were warm either. 

if anyone has one getting hot it must be defective.


----------



## ousooner2

07azhhr said:


> I have unscrewed/rescrewed my rear channels atleast 10 times in that past 2 weeks and I am not having any issue with my set screws. My local Lowes has a very nice selection of set screws and HD might as well. Try your local hardwear places if you want to get a new one. But with your overheating issue I would send it back in.


I figured out it's not the set screw. It's the terminal that is completely stripped 



passtim said:


> It might be they prefer burnt orange to red but who knows. Lol. No, I've had mine for 2 months and driven them pretty hard and they've never gotten more than Luke warm, but I have an easy 4 ohm load on the 2. I agree the screws are a pos. I thought about replacing them with torx head screws but right now every thing hold solid and I'm finally through tweaking.


Haha...hey hey now!




JAX said:


> spent some more time in neighbors truck over weekend. he pounded me out of the truck and neither of his were warm either.
> 
> if anyone has one getting hot it must be defective.


Yeah I'm with ya. No reason these should be that hot. Especially when my gains are not only at 1/2 with a 2ohm load and maybe 1/4 with a 4ohm load. I got an RMA from SonicElectronix. The guy was super nice and made it simple and easy to return it and have them do a return label for free. 

*
...he said they just got P900.4's in and should be going up VERY soon.* be ready to click "Add To Cart" lol


----------



## sigis

How clear is it when you've been using it?


----------



## cvjoint

I'm looking at the 1000.1 and I'm not quite sure why some guys don't like this design. It looks like a chocolate bar, it's freaking adorable.


----------



## JAX

cvjoint said:


> I'm looking at the 1000.1 and I'm not quite sure why some guys don't like this design. It looks like a chocolate bar, it's freaking adorable.


its adorable but it pounds the mess out of my buddies 2 polk MM 10's


----------



## ousooner2

Yeah I should have just purchased a 1000.1 with my 900.4 and called it a day. Solid little amps for the price..no doubt about that


----------



## DAT

cvjoint said:


> I'm looking at the 1000.1 and I'm not quite sure why some guys don't like this design. It looks like a chocolate bar, it's freaking adorable.


Figures you like this.


----------



## cvjoint

DAT said:


> Figures you like this.


Lol, why do you say that?


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> The price dropped $10 on the 900.4 and apparently all you cheap people bought them all.  I went to the headquarters to pick one up and the floor was clean.
> 
> On the other hand I toured Epsilon and that place is massive. More electronics than I've ever seen.


 
I noticed on a link to another forum that you stated you rather get the HDP's??? What changed? 

I am only asking because I would like to know what makes them 2-2.5 X the price of these PPI's and the soon to be released (hopefully) Tarantula Nano's. I know my opinion but I would like to hear yours and others.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> I noticed on a link to another forum that you stated you rather get the HDP's??? What changed?
> 
> I am only asking because I would like to know what makes them 2-2.5 X the price of these PPI's and the soon to be released (hopefully) Tarantula Nano's. I know my opinion but I would like to hear yours and others.


You mean this:
"Thanks but I think I'll go for the Hertz, the logo is backlit and I can rotate it."

That was a hella sarcastic answer. :laugh:


----------



## W8 a minute

I'm still trying to figure out if the endcaps are conductive. Will a screwdriver between the power terminal and the endcap creat a short? Honestly I haven't done anything than pull them out of the box and look at them but I figured someone else who already installed them would have the answer.


----------



## [email protected]

Put some electrical tape around the screwdriver, I do that with whatever amp I am installing, just to minimize the chances of nicking it.

I have not held one yet, so I do not know what material the ends are made from. But I will be ordering up a 1000.1 shortly.


----------



## passtim

W8 a minute said:


> I'm still trying to figure out if the endcaps are conductive. Will a screwdriver between the power terminal and the endcap creat a short? Honestly I haven't done anything than pull them out of the box and look at them but I figured someone else who already installed them would have the answer.


As far as i know, no, but i always trip my breaker before touching them, and use a small flat tip, works for me.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> You mean this:
> "Thanks but I think I'll go for the Hertz, the logo is backlit and I can rotate it."
> 
> That was a hella sarcastic answer. :laugh:


 
Awwww I see. That went right over my head .


----------



## 07azhhr

Has anyone seen the Arc Audio xdi amp line yet? Arc Audio states right in each amps description that they use Philips chips. The sizes are similar @ 6.5"w x 2"h x X"L for similar channel/power models. The wattages are different to some degree and they have a few extra and a missing amp in the line up. RCA's and x-over sections look different. I am wondering if Arc designed their own boards for the use of the same chips??? 

I would think that all these early arrivals were made with as little of each companies own parts and R&D just to be able to get out to market faster. I would hope that they are already working on engineering their own amps centered around these chips. Perhaps Arc has already done this without the need to be the first ones to market. Or pehaps not. 

XDi Amplifiers


----------



## [email protected]

07azhhr said:


> Has anyone seen the Arc Audio xdi amp line yet? Arc Audio states right in each amps description that they use Philips chips. The sizes are similar @ 6.5"w x 2"h x X"L for similar channel/power models. The wattages are different to some degree and they have a few extra and a missing amp in the line up. RCA's and x-over sections look different. I am wondering if Arc designed their own boards for the use of the same chips???
> 
> I would think that all these early arrivals were made with as little of each companies own parts and R&D just to be able to get out to market faster. I would hope that they are already working on engineering their own amps centered around these chips. Perhaps Arc has already done this without the need to be the first ones to market. Or pehaps not.
> 
> XDi Amplifiers


Arc has not designed any of their boards, prob ever. They are all prob Zeff designs still.


----------



## 07azhhr

BeatsDownLow said:


> Arc has not designed any of their boards, prob ever. They are all prob Zeff designs still.


So you are suggesting that either Zeff designed new boards based on the Philips chips or that Arc too, is using the same boards as the Phantoms, Polks, Hertz and SS's?


----------



## PPI_GUY

JBL has jumped into the miin-amplifier war with a new GTO-EZ series. They are on the Harman site but, not the regular JBL car audio site. Sonic has them right now. Looks like they have a 5 channel that mixes a/b and class D topology. Pretty smart really. Don't like the x-over controls on the front/top of the amp though.

jbl gto ez | Sonic Electronix Search


----------



## JAX

W8 a minute said:


> I'm still trying to figure out if the endcaps are conductive. Will a screwdriver between the power terminal and the endcap creat a short? Honestly I haven't done anything than pull them out of the box and look at them but I figured someone else who already installed them would have the answer.



yeah. I never mess with any of the connections with power on. not worth the risk. to easy to screw up something.

I am hesitant to mess with the speaker wires when amp is on . I only do that when I forget which wire is for what. 

other than that, I never have power on when moving it or anything.


----------



## subwoofery

PPI_GUY said:


> JBL has jumped into the miin-amplifier war with a new GTO-EZ series. They are on the Harman site but, not the regular JBL car audio site. Sonic has them right now. Looks like they have a 5 channel that mixes a/b and class D topology. Pretty smart really. Don't like the x-over controls on the front/top of the amp though.
> 
> jbl gto ez | Sonic Electronix Search


Really good find there :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


----------



## cvjoint

Ok, I am looking at the endcaps and I can't tell lol

The material seems different than the heatsink, the color has different porous feel. The previous owner did chip the paint of trying to put in power cables and it seems like the endcaps wore out and it is metal looking. 

So I'm confused. Tell me what to do with a voltmeter to check out the conductive properties.


----------



## cvjoint

If anybody is selling these phantoms in 4 or 5 ch trim pm me now


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> JBL has jumped into the miin-amplifier war with a new GTO-EZ series. They are on the Harman site but, not the regular JBL car audio site. Sonic has them right now. Looks like they have a 5 channel that mixes a/b and class D topology. Pretty smart really. Don't like the x-over controls on the front/top of the amp though.
> 
> jbl gto ez | Sonic Electronix Search


I saw those too. I like the clipping indicator lights. But being class AB and D I would say that they are not using the same chip family.


----------



## Offroader5

You're looking for the continuity symbol. Looks like this:










Once on that setting, touching the leads together should show on the read out...or in the case with a meter like the one in the pic, have an audible tone when the leads are touched.



cvjoint said:


> So I'm confused. Tell me what to do with a voltmeter to check out the conductive properties.


----------



## W8 a minute

Offroader5 said:


> You're looking for the continuity symbol. Looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once on that setting, touching the leads together should show on the read out...or in the case with a meter like the one in the pic, have an audible tone when the leads are touched.


*facepalm* Duh. Why did I think of that. LOL


----------



## cvjoint

Offroader5 said:


> You're looking for the continuity symbol. Looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once on that setting, touching the leads together should show on the read out...or in the case with a meter like the one in the pic, have an audible tone when the leads are touched.


Thanks a bunch! That made things really easy. My voltmeter has an audible tone as well. 

Test: leads against one another produce the tone.

Endcap test: I placed one lead in the screw hole and the second in the other screw hole of the same endcap. I got the tone, aka there is conductivity. Then I thought, it must be the extension of the heatsink. I tried straight onto the endcap. No tone...however, I tried to place the leads in the spots where the paint was worn off by the previous user. Low and behold, there is the tone again. 

Conclusion, it is conductive. It is not plastic. It's also potentially dangerous imo. 

Imagine the screwdriver touching the endcap through the worn off paint (which will wear out since it's in the way of the screw ) touching the screw which secures the + cable. I place the leads on the endcap were the paint was off and one random screw on the board and I get a different reading on the voltmeter. It seems to me like you could easily run juice where it's not supposed to go.


----------



## Offroader5

Going to depend on how you mount your amp. If you bolt it down onto sheetmetal or to metal brackets that in turn mount to the body/frame of the vehicle, it could short...but if you typically mount your amps down to a wood baffle of some sort, you wont need to worry. Unless of course there is continuity between the ground connection at the amp and the amps chassis/endcaps.


----------



## W8 a minute

cvjoint said:


> Conclusion, it is conductive. It is not plastic. It's also potentially dangerous imo.


That's a poor design. You could easily cause a short because there is no way to avoid that end cap while tightening some of the screws on the terminals.

IMHO they need to correct that immediately. There is just no need for those end caps.


----------



## cvjoint

Surely most installs will make use of MDF for an amp rack. The trouble is that a lot of the times the screws go through the MDF and may touch something else. But maybe that's just me. :blush:

I'm going to use these guys without the endcaps for sure. I don't feel comfortable knowing I'm basically going to brush the amp with the power cable.


----------



## cvjoint

Offroader5 said:


> Going to depend on how you mount your amp. If you bolt it down onto sheetmetal or to metal brackets that in turn mount to the body/frame of the vehicle, it could short...but if you typically mount your amps down to a wood baffle of some sort, you wont need to worry. *Unless of course there is continuity between the ground connection at the amp and the amps chassis/endcaps.*


I did try this by connecting the negative lead to some screw on the back of the amp. I didn't get anything to show that there is a connection.


----------



## 07azhhr

W8 a minute said:


> That's a poor design. You could easily cause a short because there is no way to avoid that end cap while tightening some of the screws on the terminals.
> 
> IMHO they need to correct that immediately. There is just no need for those end caps.


IMHO ONE should ALWAYS disconnect the power to the amp prior to TOUCHING the power wire screw. If you leave the power flowing to the amp and you try to mess with the screw for the power cable then you are playing Russian roulet with your amp. Be smarter then the amp and you have nothing to worry about lol.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> Surely most installs will make use of MDF for an amp rack. The trouble is that a lot of the times the screws go through the MDF and may touch something else. But maybe that's just me. :blush:
> 
> I'm going to use these guys without the endcaps for sure. I don't feel comfortable knowing I'm basically going to brush the amp with the power cable.


 
The end caps are held in place by only two screws each in the bottom of the amp. You can easily remove them and add your own straight brackets off of the existing mounting points. You would only need maybe 1.5" or so 2 hole brackets.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> The end caps are held in place by only two screws each in the bottom of the amp. You can easily remove them and add your own straight brackets off of the existing mounting points. You would only need maybe 1.5" or so 2 hole brackets.


That's what I'm planning to do, except I would make them out of plastic or something non conductive. I've had issues before with screws, the feet of the amp, and chassis. 

I have quick disconnects so it's easy to take power out but at the same time amps store a bit of energy too. I've made some massive sparks before using whatever they had stored in their caps. I suppose one should try to start them using no power cables and hopefully that will deplete them completely but that's not as easy as it sounds.


----------



## 07azhhr

Use the correct length screws and you will no longer have issues. If you are mounting to a 1/2" board then use 1/2" or 5/8" screws depending on the amps mounting hole thickness. Don't use a 1 1/2" screw to mount to a 1/2" board with only a 1/4" amp mount thickness.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> Use the correct length screws and you will no longer have issues. If you are mounting to a 1/2" board then use 1/2" or 5/8" screws depending on the amps mounting hole thickness. Don't use a 1 1/2" screw to mount to a 1/2" board with only a 1/4" amp mount thickness.


I'm trying to save weight and use the 1/4" MDF. An amp rack doesn't need rigidity, it just needs to hold things in place. On the other hand any screw is going to have a tough time holding the amp on with only 1/4" if it can't even pierce it.


----------



## 07azhhr

Just one more example of NEED TO USE THE CORRECT PARTS. Like you said 1/4" does not offer enough material to get bite with the threads. Use thicker material or use thread inserts and machine bolts/screws if you want to use the 1/4". IMHO the 1/4" is great for trimming and making cover pieces but not for the mounting itself. Not because of rigidity but for being able to screw into it and keep it there.

Oh and the weight of 1/4" vs 1/2" may be twice as much but when the 1/4" piece only weighs 1 lbs or so then the 1/2" only wieghs 2 lbs?!?!? You won't be saving enough to make a difference. It takes a weight reduction of 100#'s to shave 1/10th of a second of the 1/4 mile. I guess it can add up after a while but really do you think you would be saving even 25 lbs? A 3/4" sheet of MDF doesn't even feel like it weighs 25 lbs and my 1/4" sheet feels like 5 lbs max. These are 48 x 96 inch sheets mind you but I will admit that I have never weighed them.


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> Just one more example of NEED TO USE THE CORRECT PARTS. Like you said 1/4" does not offer enough material to get bite with the threads. Use thicker material or use thread inserts and machine bolts/screws if you want to use the 1/4". IMHO the 1/4" is great for trimming and making cover pieces but not for the mounting itself. Not because of rigidity but for being able to screw into it and keep it there.
> 
> Oh and the weight of 1/4" vs 1/2" may be twice as much but when the 1/4" piece only weighs 1 lbs or so then the 1/2" only wieghs 2 lbs?!?!? You won't be saving enough to make a difference. It takes a weight reduction of 100#'s to shave 1/10th of a second of the 1/4 mile. I guess it can add up after a while but really do you think you would be saving even 25 lbs? A 3/4" sheet of MDF doesn't even feel like it weighs 25 lbs and my 1/4" sheet feels like 5 lbs max. These are 48 x 96 inch sheets mind you but I will admit that I have never weighed them.


When I see thick wood in a car it makes me cringe. I would make everything out of composites if I had the $. MDF in the mobile environment isn't ideal, and definitely not 3/4" at a time. Aside from weight, which does add up, there are also tolerance issues. My soft top won't fold properly if I use another 1/2" of MDF. The sub magnet will get dangerously close to the amp as well. Everything I make is down to 1/4" at the very least. With MDF a lot of space is lost simply due to the straight profiles that usually come out. 


Anywho, I've been trying to take the endcaps off. I'm beat. I took the screws out and pulled and pushed and manhandled in a lot of ways. Those bastards are still on. What's the trick?


----------



## W8 a minute

07azhhr said:


> IMHO ONE should ALWAYS disconnect the power to the amp prior to TOUCHING the power wire screw. If you leave the power flowing to the amp and you try to mess with the screw for the power cable then you are playing Russian roulet with your amp. Be smarter then the amp and you have nothing to worry about lol.[/SIZE]


Agreed. But you know not everyone is going to heed this if they happen to notice the connections became loose some time down the road.

And they are still in the way of anything you want to do with the terminals at any time. They are really quite ridiculous.


----------



## W8 a minute

07azhhr said:


> It takes a weight reduction of 100#'s to shave 1/10th of a second of the 1/4 mile. I guess it can add up after a while but really do you think you would be saving even 25 lbs? A 3/4" sheet of MDF doesn't even feel like it weighs 25 lbs and my 1/4" sheet feels like 5 lbs max. These are 48 x 96 inch sheets mind you but I will admit that I have never weighed them.


Plywood Types



> The primary drawback to this product is weight. A 3/4" x 4' x 8' sheet can weigh as much as 70 to 90 pounds per sheet. The density of the core is expressed as the weight of a one cubic foot (1'x1'x1') block of the material. Therefore, an MDF sheet using a 48# (pound) core, will weigh 96 pounds. (48"x96"x3/4"= 2 cubic feet)


----------



## ousooner2

Do we have any shots of the board, etc with this amp yet?? I'm sending mine back to Sonic and they're sending me another...so I can play with this one, open it up, etc lol.

I kinda wanted to open it up anyways to see why I had that bulge in mine.


----------



## [email protected]

ousooner2 said:


> Do we have any shots of the board, etc with this amp yet?? I'm sending mine back to Sonic and they're sending me another...so I can play with this one, open it up, etc lol.
> 
> I kinda wanted to open it up anyways to see why I had that bulge in mine.


There are pics floating around of the guts. I know a seller on Ebay has the gut pics of all 3 of the Phantom amps, each one in its respective auction.


----------



## W8 a minute

ousooner2 said:


> I kinda wanted to open it up anyways to see why I had that bulge in mine.


Why do you think they call it a forum boner?


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> When I see thick wood in a car it makes me cringe. I would make everything out of composites if I had the $. MDF in the mobile environment isn't ideal, and definitely not 3/4" at a time. Aside from weight, which does add up, there are also tolerance issues. My soft top won't fold properly if I use another 1/2" of MDF. The sub magnet will get dangerously close to the amp as well. Everything I make is down to 1/4" at the very least. With MDF a lot of space is lost simply due to the straight profiles that usually come out.
> 
> 
> Anywho, I've been trying to take the endcaps off. I'm beat. I took the screws out and pulled and pushed and manhandled in a lot of ways. Those bastards are still on. What's the trick?


I understand about space restrictions. But I am only suggesting mounting the amps to thicker material not the entire setup. You are complaining of going thru the wood and worried about touching metal. Use thicker material where you mount the amps to only. I have a 1/2" board under my 900.4 that is 8x16 and I can assure you that it is not adding enough weight to slow me down. For trimming it off I use 1/4" for the same reasons as you. I just can't grasp why you think that you would be using enough 1/2 material to be a weight issue. 

To get the bite and keep the screws from going thru the board you could add 1/4" strips under the screw areas only to give you 1/2" for the screws but saving the weight across the rest of the board. If an exra 1/4" is going to prevent you from mounting your sub then you might have to rethink (think more outside the box) the design or you might have to use the insert method I mentioned earlier.

That sucks about the endcaps. They looked like those two screws would be it. I wounder if there are more screws inside the amp. Perhaps to the top of the heatsink inside the amp. 




W8 a minute said:


> Agreed. But you know not everyone is going to heed this if they happen to notice the connections became loose some time down the road.
> 
> And they are still in the way of anything you want to do with the terminals at any time. They are really quite ridiculous.


I use the second driver from the bottom in the pic below and have ZERO issues with the screws. I can access all of them without touching the endcaps. I get plenty of torque too. I have never ever had power screws loosen on me on any amp. I guess it could happen but that would suggest that the installer did not tighten it enough in the first place. But I will say that I fully agree that the amp would be better without them. 


07azhhr said:


>





W8 a minute said:


> The primary drawback to this product is weight. A 3/4" x 4' x 8' sheet can weigh as much as 70 to 90 pounds per sheet. The density of the core is expressed as the weight of a one cubic foot (1'x1'x1') block of the material. Therefore, an MDF sheet using a 48# (pound) core, will weigh 96 pounds. (48"x96"x3/4"= 2 cubic feet)


Like I said I have never weighed them. I can definitely believe that I underestimated the weight.


----------



## mynym

Anyone measured the 1000.1 at 1ohm? 12v and 14v?

Thanks


----------



## snaimpally

mynym said:


> Anyone measured the 1000.1 at 1ohm? 12v and 14v?
> 
> Thanks


The 900.4 has been tested and does rated power so I would expect the 1000.1 to be comparable.

PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power P900.4 Amplifier


----------



## snaimpally

07azhhr said:


> So you are suggesting that either Zeff designed new boards based on the Philips chips or that Arc too, is using the same boards as the Phantoms, Polks, Hertz and SS's?


Zeff's designs are used by Clarion, Arc Audio, Vibe, etc. You can look at the specs and see which Arc amp has a corresponding Clarion amp:
http://www.arcaudio.com/product-pages/amplifiers/xdi-series/xdi804.asp
http://www.clarion.com/us/en/produc...rs/XC6410/us-en-product-sc_1259567312032.html

The class D amps from PPI etc seem to be coming from a different build house than the Arc/Clarion amps. If you look at the specs of, for example, the PPI 900.4 and similar amps from Hertz, Polk, etc., you will find the specs are very similar. Not a coincidence. I've seen amp gut pics of the Hertz vs the PPI 900.4 and they are using the same board. Components may vary somewhat based on who is placing the order. It is like going into a fast food place - some people order with mayo, mustard, and pickle, and some without. Look at the pasmag tests of the PPI and the Polk and you can see that they tested virtually the same. *All this means is that the PPI amps are a heck of bargain.*

PPI 900.4 - 14.4V - 4 ohms: 145 watts x 4 chan. Size: 10-15/16"L x 6-3/4"W x 2"H
Hertz HPD 4 - 14.4V - 4 ohms: 150 watts x 4 chan Size: 11.18 x 6.73 x 1.8"
Polk PA D4000.4 -14.4V - 4 ohms: 150 watts x 4 chan Size:10 15/16" W x 6 3/4" D x 1 13/16" H


----------



## ZAKOH

snaimpally said:


> The 900.4 has been tested and does rated power so I would expect the 1000.1 to be comparable.
> 
> PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power P900.4 Amplifier


It would be nice to see a test, since 1000watts RMS at 1ohm seems kind of low for an amplifier with 600watt RMS rating at 4ohms.


----------



## cvjoint

The 1000.1 supposedly tests at over 1200w @1ohm. I'd like to see the tests myself but I believe it. That's why the new Soundstream nanos are rated at 1200w with the same exact board.

Has anybody gotten these endcaps off yet?


----------



## PPI_GUY

ZAKOH said:


> It would be nice to see a test, since 1000watts RMS at 1ohm seems kind of low for an amplifier with 600watt RMS rating at 4ohms.


According to Grizz Archer, the P1000.1 actually does alittle over 1200 watts at 1 ohm. He mentioned it somewhere in this thread I do believe.
That would seem to make it an even better bang for your buck.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Anyone running two of the Phantoms having any audible noise problems from your components? A few people have mentioned that running two separate class D amps in the same system will sometimes result in some noise from one of the amps, usually only audible thru components/mids/highs.


----------



## ZAKOH

PPI_GUY said:


> According to Grizz Archer, the P1000.1 actually does alittle over 1200 watts at 1 ohm. He mentioned it somewhere in this thread I do believe.
> That would seem to make it an even better bang for your buck.



I see. To tell the truth I for one don't care about wiring subs for 1ohm... Given the power spec of P1000.1, I wouldn't mind running a 4ohm sub for SQ application.

By the way, I just looked at the list of mono block PPI amplifiers available from sonicelectronix. It's an interesting line-up. There are some really cheap ones and others that can provide power of up to 2000watts. However, I still think that P1000.1 is probably the best, simply for its size.. Only 13.x inches long. The other PPI subwoofer amps with comparable power are over 16 inches. Too bad I am too lazy to have a dedicated subwoofer amplifier.. The P900.4 already powers my subwoofer well enough. Bass is tight and effortless.


----------



## 07azhhr

snaimpally said:


> Zeff's designs are used by Clarion, Arc Audio, Vibe, etc. You can look at the specs and see which Arc amp has a corresponding Clarion amp:
> Arc Audio XDI 80.4
> Clarion U.S.A. | XC6410
> 
> The class D amps from PPI etc seem to be coming from a different build house than the Arc/Clarion amps. If you look at the specs of, for example, the PPI 900.4 and similar amps from Hertz, Polk, etc., you will find the specs are very similar. Not a coincidence. I've seen amp gut pics of the Hertz vs the PPI 900.4 and they are using the same board. Components may vary somewhat based on who is placing the order. It is like going into a fast food place - some people order with mayo, mustard, and pickle, and some without. Look at the pasmag tests of the PPI and the Polk and you can see that they tested virtually the same. *All this means is that the PPI amps are a heck of bargain.*
> 
> PPI 900.4 - 14.4V - 4 ohms: 145 watts x 4 chan. Size: 10-15/16"L x 6-3/4"W x 2"H
> Hertz HPD 4 - 14.4V - 4 ohms: 150 watts x 4 chan Size: 11.18 x 6.73 x 1.8"
> Polk PA D4000.4 -14.4V - 4 ohms: 150 watts x 4 chan Size:10 15/16" W x 6 3/4" D x 1 13/16" H


If you read back thru the posts you will see that I mentioned all that before but with something I think you may not be aware of. Yes the boards for the PPI's and Polk's and Hertz are known to be the same. This is because the boards were built to use the Philips chipset. These chips are the HEART of these amps and the boards are designed around them. Arc Audio clearly states that these new XDI amps are using these PHILIPS class D chips. What I am wondering is if Arc designers designed a new board to use with these chips and in such were able to get different specs and channel configurations. The chips are the same ones but from looking at the numbers I would think that they designed new boards or Philips added more chips to the family line-up and the others have not started to use these new chips. Their sizes are also similar as the others for a given channel config and or wattages. 

For example the XDI 805 is:
4 Channels @ 4 Ohms- 80 Watts, 4 Channels @ 2 ohms 120 Watts, 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms (Sub)120 Watts, 1 Channel @ 2 Ohms (Sub)400 Watts

Dimensions11.25"(L) x 6.5"(W) x 2.25"(H)

Those numbers are almost spot on with the others. 

Now the 804 is less wattage then the 900.4 and it's equivs but it's size is almost 2" shorter so who knows there. 

But then the XDI 1000.1 has numbers that pretty much match the PPI 1000.1 in size and wattage. 
XDI : 
1 Channels @ 4 Ohms-400 Watts, 1 Channel @ 2 ohms 700 Watts, 1 Channel @ 1 Ohms 1150 Watts

Dimensions11.25"(L) x 6.5"(W) x 2.25"(H)

vs PPI 1000.1 :

Channels1 ch. Class D RMS Power 4Ω 580 RMS, Power 2Ω 725 RMS, Power 4Ω Bridged-RMS Power 1Ω 1,000 Dimensions (6.5"w x 2"h)11.5"


With these numbers do you see why I think these are the same design of amps??? I know the chips are the same for sure since Arc states the use of these Philips chips.


----------



## JAX

PPI_GUY said:


> Anyone running two of the Phantoms having any audible noise problems from your components? A few people have mentioned that running two separate class D amps in the same system will sometimes result in some noise from one of the amps, usually only audible thru components/mids/highs.


buddy runs a 900.4 and 1000.1 . no noise issues


----------



## ousooner2

Ugh...Sonic still hasn't shipped out my exchange p900.4! I was told Monday or Tuesday, but obviously not. Maybe I'll call them today and see if I can't get expedited shipping lol


*Random Question: *Is there a way to test what output voltage you're getting from a processor (RF 3sixty.2)?? It says it gives 5v output, but my gains need to be raised more than what 5v would be on the p900.4 (and my other amp for that matter).


----------



## beerdrnkr

I've decided to go with these amps for my next build but does anyone know what the xover is like for the sub channel on the 5ch amp? I was hoping I'd be able to run it tri-mode for the front two mids and center channel. Also, what's the difference between the black ice and phantom amps (which are better)? 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


----------



## mynym

Does anyone know the actual length of the P1000.1?

SonicElectronix and other sites are reporting 12-15/16" while the Precision Power Website is reporting 11.5"

I'm in a situation where it's extremely tight to mount these and every 1/8 of an inch counts (Thats what she said..)

Also are the end caps removable?

Thanks again guys


----------



## trumpet

mynym said:


> Does anyone know the actual length of the P1000.1?
> 
> SonicElectronix and other sites are reporting 12-15/16" while the Precision Power Website is reporting 11.5"


A quick measurement got me 13". Sorry I can't verify it to the nearest 1/16" inch. 



> Also are the end caps removable?


The end caps might come off, but based on the photos I took it looks like they're molded together with the knob panels. This was a customer's amp so I don't have the opportunity to poke around with it.


----------



## mynym

trumpet said:


> A quick measurement got me 13". Sorry I can't verify it to the nearest 1/16" inch.
> 
> 
> 
> The end caps might come off, but based on the photos I took it looks like they're molded together with the knob panels. This was a customer's amp so I don't have the opportunity to poke around with it.


Huge thank you. Really appreciate it 

I've been leaning towards the P1000.1 because of the great reviews. My alternative is a Massive Audio N3 / American Bass 2500 (Sound Magnus Design) which is actually a bit smaller (10 5/16")

Both can be had for around the same price.

Has anyone had experience with the Phantom 1000.1 and the Massive Audio N3/American Bass 2500/Sound Magnus design amp to contrast them ?

Thanks


----------



## trumpet

I use the Massive Audio N2, and I've been running it for over a year. The N3 and the P1000.1 are both solid choices. If it's down to saving space I would choose the N3. I would give the nod to the Nano Block amps for a slightly nicer, refined build quality(strictly speaking of aesthetics, not of the internals).


----------



## mynym

trumpet said:


> I use the Massive Audio N2, and I've been running it for over a year. The N3 and the P1000.1 are both solid choices. If it's down to saving space I would choose the N3. I would give the nod to the Nano Block amps for a slightly nicer, refined build quality(strictly speaking of aesthetics, not of the internals).



Perfect  How's the SQ?


----------



## beerdrnkr

beerdrnkr said:


> I've decided to go with these amps for my next build but does anyone know what the xover is like for the sub channel on the 5ch amp? I was hoping I'd be able to run it tri-mode for the front two mids and center channel. Also, what's the difference between the black ice and phantom amps (which are better)?
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


? Anyone ?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


----------



## ousooner2

Aren't the Massive amps extremely overrated though?


----------



## trumpet

mynym said:


> Perfect  How's the SQ?


I loved my NX2 for SQ but I replaced it with a P900.4 to run active. The SQ comparison on sub amps I personally believe is a useless discussion. Their can be far more distortion playing from a subwoofer monoblock amp than our ears can hear, as compared to the same amount of distortion on a full range amplifier.

As to the Nano Block amps being overrated, I think the fact that American Bass saw fit to get their own branded version made of the monoblcoks should be testiment to the quality. I've seen the Russian test on the NX4 and it clearly looked to be making far less than rated power.


----------



## ousooner2

Trumpet..do you guys have any P900.4's or any ETA on them?? Sonic can't seem to tell me when they're getting theirs in and I'm going nuts only have 3 of the channels in my car lol. Sounds funky


----------



## trumpet

ousooner2 said:


> Trumpet..do you guys have any P900.4's or any ETA on them?? Sonic can't seem to tell me when they're getting theirs in and I'm going nuts only have 3 of the channels in my car lol. Sounds funky


I can't order any and at this point I'm waiting and hoping my distributor will call soon and say they have them back in stock. They have no idea when to expect more p900.4s in stock.


----------



## Offroader5

I can confirm that the 1000.1 is exactly 12 15/16" long.


----------



## ousooner2

trumpet said:


> I can't order any and at this point I'm waiting and hoping my distributor will call soon and say they have them back in stock. They have no idea when to expect more p900.4s in stock.



Yeah I'm starting to get annoyed and just go with a different amp. I love the power and size, but if they wont have any for another month or something then it's pointless. Sonic called me back today telling me that "I" have to pay the return shipping for my defective P900.4. Stripped terminal (not the actual screw) and it's got a hump in the middle of the amp. Manufacturer defect, someone already returned it, etc..I dunno, but it's kinda b.s. they're making me pay for it. Especially since I've ordered countless things from them within the past year or so. 

Maybe I'll start looking at new amps in the $200ish range from SonicElec. Any idea's or should I wait it out??


----------



## cvjoint

trumpet said:


> A quick measurement got me 13". Sorry I can't verify it to the nearest 1/16" inch.
> 
> 
> 
> *The end caps might come off, but based on the photos I took it looks like they're molded together with the knob panels. *This was a customer's amp so I don't have the opportunity to poke around with it.


Nice to hear something on that. I took the rear lid off to get at 'em and no bueno. Those bastards really feel welded. I wonder, are they even endcaps, aren't they just part of the heatsink then?

The heatsink is brushed and the endcaps are smooth, I think that's why people thought they were plastic.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> Nice to hear something on that. I took the rear lid off to get at 'em and no bueno. Those bastards really feel welded. I wonder, are they even endcaps, aren't they just part of the heatsink then?
> 
> The heatsink is brushed and the endcaps are smooth, I think that's why people thought they were plastic.


When you took out the bottom screws and tried to pull it off did the endcap move at all? If the bottom of the endcap did not even move a little bit then you could be correct. But that would make me wonder why did they waste the 4 screws and the extra material? If my amp was not in service I would take it apart and figure this out. 

Did you try pulling the board out so you could see the underside of the heatsink?


----------



## Sonus

Any one know of the PPI Phantom and SS Tarantula Nano will accept a differential input signal from my BMW HiFi HU?


----------



## cvjoint

07azhhr said:


> When you took out the bottom screws and tried to pull it off did the endcap move at all? If the bottom of the endcap did not even move a little bit then you could be correct. But that would make me wonder why did they waste the 4 screws and the extra material? If my amp was not in service I would take it apart and figure this out.
> 
> Did you try pulling the board out so you could see the underside of the heatsink?


I did not pull the board out. In the past the white contact grease was not one of my favorite jobs and it seems like there is some present to transfer heat. If that's what it takes to get them off I'm not doing it.


----------



## mynym

Offroader5 said:


> I can confirm that the 1000.1 is exactly 12 15/16" long.


Thanks 



Sonus said:


> Any one know of the PPI Phantom and SS Tarantula Nano will accept a differential input signal from my BMW HiFi HU?


Talk to Technic. He has a harness for both the logic7 and hifi.


----------



## W8 a minute

ZAKOH said:


> It would be nice to see a test, since 1000watts RMS at 1ohm seems kind of low for an amplifier with 600watt RMS rating at 4ohms.


Considering it's size and price point I'll be happy if it does 800 watts. Anything more is a bonus.


----------



## Sonus

mynym said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Talk to Technic. He has a harness for both the logic7 and hifi.


I've already got Technic's harness, but since that has a differential balanced out on the RCAs I need to know whether the Phantom or Tarantula Nanos ground the negative signal in a differential signal or use it.


----------



## trumpet

Sonus said:


> I've already got Technic's harness, but since that has a differential balanced out on the RCAs I need to know whether the Phantom or Tarantula Nanos ground the negative signal in a differential signal or use it.


The Phantom amps don't have a balanced input, so unless I'm missing something, it's not going to make use of the negative signal.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Are the Polk PA D series amps using the same boards as the Phantoms as well? The chassis looks very similiar although about 1" longer. More expensive but, gotta say, they look alittle nicer.

Picture 2 of 9 for Polk Audio PA D1000.1 (PAD1000.1)


----------



## trumpet

A guts shot would reveal much more, but that does look a whole lot like a P1000.1 on the ends. I noticed the speaker terminal block is crooked.


----------



## MDubYa

Here I go again...(on my own. Going down the only road I've ever known)Sorry back to my original thought
Anything on the INGENIX head units????


----------



## Sonus

trumpet said:


> The Phantom amps don't have a balanced input, so unless I'm missing something, it's not going to make use of the negative signal.


Differential balanced can be sent via RCA as long as the amp accepts it (like JL Audio). No need for XLR or mini-DINs.

I sent an e-mail to PPI but haven't had a replay yet.


----------



## ousooner2

PPI doesn't accept balanced


----------



## ZAKOH

PPI_GUY said:


> Are the Polk PA D series amps using the same boards as the Phantoms as well? The chassis looks very similiar although about 1" longer. More expensive but, gotta say, they look alittle nicer.
> 
> Picture 2 of 9 for Polk Audio PA D1000.1 (PAD1000.1)


I think it's been pretty much established that the new Polk Class D amplifiers share design with the PPI Phantom. The components used on the boards are still different, which could lead to minor differences in performance.


----------



## Sonus

ousooner2 said:


> PPI doesn't accept balanced


Thanks

I guess non of its brothers or sisters like HDP, PA etc would accept it either :worried:


----------



## ousooner2

Not sure about those. When I looked for balanced (b/c the Acura TL uses it also) it was looking like JL HD & XD, older Soundstreams, Audison, Tru Billet, Old school Orion, Zapco Ref and DC. The PPI Power Class accepts balanced, but not the Phantom from what I've heard and seen.


----------



## mynym

I know Technic's "Custom HiFi" harness uses a LOC which outputs non-balanced which can be used with any current amp.


----------



## PPI_GUY

ZAKOH said:


> I think it's been pretty much established that the new Polk Class D amplifiers share design with the PPI Phantom. The components used on the boards are still different, which could lead to minor differences in performance.


Thanks. I must have missed that somewhere along the line.


----------



## OGJordan

ousooner2 said:


> PPI doesn't accept balanced



The Black Ice series does.


----------



## SQfreak

Sonus said:


> Thanks
> 
> I guess non of its brothers or sisters like HDP, PA etc would accept it either :worried:


Are you wondering for tapping the output leads from the iDrive to the trunk amp? 

RMAT just tapped the the outs from his Infiniti HU (not sure but I think they are Differential as well) to his Phantom amps and they worked like a charm.


----------



## zql8tr

ZAKOH said:


> My understanding is that Power Class is the high end product, Sedona is budget product, Black Ice sits in between. Phantom is for mini amplifier needs.


Exactly. Our Black Ice line would be one step below Power Class. The Phantoms have done well for us and have had great reviews so far. 

We are out of stock on the 4 channels with unfortunately no time frame from the factory as to when we will get them back in stock... Sorry guys. When I know more, I'll post it!


----------



## starboy869

That's it. I'm getting a 900.4 and p1000.


----------



## ousooner2

OGJordan said:


> The Black Ice series does.


Right. Sorry...Phantom DOES NOT. Black Ice DOES



zql8tr said:


> Exactly. Our Black Ice line would be one step below Power Class. The Phantoms have done well for us and have had great reviews so far.
> 
> We are out of stock on the 4 channels with unfortunately no time frame from the factory as to when we will get them back in stock... Sorry guys. When I know more, I'll post it!


Argh...really? That's not good news. I'm sitting here with my p900.4 and only 3 channels are useable. If it's going to be that long, I'll just have to go with something else. 

Do you guys think the Black Ice would still be a good fit?? The power isn't really that much lower. I loved that about the p900.4, but my gains weren't even past half and my drivers are pretty efficient. Maybe I'll just do the 820.4


----------



## subwoofery

zql8tr said:


> Exactly. Our Black Ice line would be one step below Power Class. The Phantoms have done well for us and have had great reviews so far.
> 
> We are out of stock on the 4 channels with unfortunately no time frame from the factory as to when we will get them back in stock... Sorry guys. When I know more, I'll post it!


Good to see another Tech Support on the forum  

Interesting that you went a produce the Black Ice line to be just below the Power Class. Looks like those could have been the new "Art". 

Kelvin


----------



## alachua

subwoofery said:


> Good to see another Tech Support on the forum
> 
> Interesting that you went a produce the Black Ice line to be just below the Power Class. Looks like those could have been the new "Art".
> 
> Kelvin


If I recall correctly, they were originally intended to be the new 'Art' line, before the whole saga unfolded and it was determined that they did not hold the IP/licenses to use the 'Art' name/design. That then lead to the 'design the new PPI heatsink' thread, which then lead to this thread.


----------



## subwoofery

Yep... Remembered that. Just wanted to know what the Tech had to say about my "Art" comment  

Kelvin


----------



## Darth SQ

Did somebody say there's a new Art?

kidding....JUST KIDDING!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## thomasluke

PPI_GUY said:


> Are the Polk PA D series amps using the same boards as the Phantoms as well? The chassis looks very similiar although about 1" longer. More expensive but, gotta say, they look alittle nicer.
> 
> Picture 2 of 9 for Polk Audio PA D1000.1 (PAD1000.1)


Yes, theres a gut shot on the polk boards i saw a about a week ago. I had some store credit that i got from a returned ms-8 and the phantoms were not in stock so i got the polk.
In person it really looks nice let me see if i can find the thread.


----------



## thomasluke

When the hell will D4000.4 hit the market?? - Page 3 

scroll down a bit and you'll find it. These are of the 4 channel but if there exactly the same i could'nt see the mono's being any different.


----------



## cvjoint

I got shots of the P1000.1 on my old phone I can post up. If any of the tech savy guys want to read part no.s and stuff I can do lots of close up pics too. Let me know.


----------



## zql8tr

alachua said:


> If I recall correctly, they were originally intended to be the new 'Art' line, before the whole saga unfolded and it was determined that they did not hold the IP/licenses to use the 'Art' name/design. That then lead to the 'design the new PPI heatsink' thread, which then lead to this thread.


Again, yep!


----------



## PPI_GUY

thomasluke said:


> When the hell will D4000.4 hit the market?? - Page 3
> 
> scroll down a bit and you'll find it. These are of the 4 channel but if there exactly the same i could'nt see the mono's being any different.


Yeah, I've seen that gutshot before. Was wondering if the Polk 1000.1 and the Phantom 1000.1 were identical as well? 
There's some negative reviews on that Polk board about these amps. Could have been some QC issues with early runs or something though. 
The buildhouse making these boards is doing alright, huh?


----------



## ZAKOH

PPI_GUY said:


> Yeah, I've seen that gutshot before. Was wondering if the Polk 1000.1 and the Phantom 1000.1 were identical as well?
> There's some negative reviews on that Polk board about these amps. Could have been some QC issues with early runs or something though.
> The buildhouse making these boards is doing alright, huh?



I think the entire line is shared design. Interestingly, the Polk 1000.1 is rated for a bit higher RMS wattage.


----------



## ousooner2

alachua said:


> If I recall correctly, they were originally intended to be the new 'Art' line, before the whole saga unfolded and it was determined that they did not hold the IP/licenses to use the 'Art' name/design. That then lead to the 'design the new PPI heatsink' thread, which then lead to this thread.





zql8tr said:


> Again, yep!


So the Black Ice line is technically of nicer quality and a line or 2 above the Phantom's? I'm just wondering why they're cheaper online. I see that the BI 4-channels like the 800.4 only accept 8awg though, which sucks b/c I don't want to rewire lol. Lazy 

Kinda upset now at SonicElectronix. They told me they'd be in last Monday or Tuesday and so I placed an order with them. So I've got a defective amp that I paid for PLUS another amp paid for that I don't even have. Wow...just realized the 800.4 is pretty long. Hmm...decisions decisions...


----------



## trumpet

ousooner2 said:


> So the Black Ice line is technically of nicer quality and a line or 2 above the Phantom's? I'm just wondering why they're cheaper online.


I had this discussion with my PPI distributor recently. She said Black Ice is below Phantom, and the reason is the prices are lower and the Black Ice series is listed before Phantom in the product guide book. I'd feel better hearing this from PPI but it does make some sense. Sorta.


----------



## rexroadj

I think people are reading into the "better" via lineup to much! 
The phantoms are the only mini and class D line so they stand ALONE! 
All the rest are based on A/B class amps..... and the classes make sense in that regard (IMO). 
I'm sure the Tech. Rep. from PPI/SS can elaborate but I'm pretty sure he already said this! 
What happened to deciding what fits the needs based on all specs/options and picking what fits regardless of class? Sometimes your taking steps sideways in these lines, not up or down


----------



## ousooner2

I just want to take a damn step! lol. I've purchased 2 amps and can't use either one technically! Combine that with a blown IDmax and an Audison SR1dk that's in protect....I'm about to just call it quits again lol. SUCH bad luck. 

I didn't mean to start a "what's better" type of thing. Just wondering where these lines stand. Debating on getting my money back for both amps and going with something else. Kicking myself for selling my Sundown 100.4 AND my Kenwood XR-4s. 

...you live and learn I guess


----------



## PPI_GUY

rexroadj said:


> I think people are reading into the "better" via lineup to much!
> The phantoms are the only mini and class D line so they stand ALONE!
> All the rest are based on A/B class amps..... and the classes make sense in that regard (IMO).
> I'm sure the Tech. Rep. from PPI/SS can elaborate but I'm pretty sure he already said this!
> What happened to deciding what fits the needs based on all specs/options and picking what fits regardless of class? Sometimes your taking steps sideways in these lines, not up or down


I pretty much agree with this line of thinking. Compact class D is in a whole 'nother catagory than class a/b stuff these days. Hard to compare it to the Power Class for example. 
What I don't understand is who are the Black Ice amps marketed for? They seem to overlap the Sedona and Power Class in many instances. 
Maybe it was simply a case of Epsilon having already ordered the boards for the "new ART series" and had to use them for something after the whole design liscense thing happened?


----------



## PPI_GUY

Another curious thing is that back when I started this thread...in January of 2011, the Phantom 5 channel had just been announced as part of the Phantom series lineup on the PPI website. Now, nearly 14 months later the 5 channel has yet to hit the market. While Polk's 5 channel, probably using the same board, is readily available.
What the heck???


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> I pretty much agree with this line of thinking. Compact class D is in a whole 'nother catagory than class a/b stuff these days. Hard to compare it to the Power Class for example.
> What I don't understand is who are the Black Ice amps marketed for? They seem to overlap the Sedona and Power Class in many instances.
> Maybe it was simply a case of Epsilon having already ordered the boards for the "new ART series" and had to use them for something after the whole design liscense thing happened?


I think it better bridges the gap between sedona and PC. With the black ice you can get more power, you can add the BLT I believe there are more xover features? (dont quote me, didnt look first), much better looking then the sedona "showy".........Those are just a few things off the top of my head. The PC are just awesome! 

I think its nice to have a few options even cosmetically.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> Another curious thing is that back when I started this thread...in January of 2011, the Phantom 5 channel had just been announced as part of the Phantom series lineup on the PPI website. Now, nearly 14 months later the 5 channel has yet to hit the market. While Polk's 5 channel, probably using the same board, is readily available.
> What the heck???


Lets not forget the frigging head units


----------



## MDubYa

rexroadj said:


> Lets not forget the frigging head units


X10000 I've been asking for a while and still nothing. Even if someone said "it's not even close to being out," at least we would know.


----------



## another-user

i finally got my 900.4 hooked up this evening. it sounds just as good, if not better, than my old xtant a4004. so, im happy. now i just need to break in this new sub so i can really turn it up.


----------



## another-user

is anyone else getting a turn on/off pop with this amp?


----------



## zql8tr

rexroadj said:


> I think people are reading into the "better" via lineup to much!
> The phantoms are the only mini and class D line so they stand ALONE!
> All the rest are based on A/B class amps..... and the classes make sense in that regard (IMO).
> I'm sure the Tech. Rep. from PPI/SS can elaborate but I'm pretty sure he already said this!
> What happened to deciding what fits the needs based on all specs/options and picking what fits regardless of class? Sometimes your taking steps sideways in these lines, not up or down


I agree. Most people read too much into "classifications". Our Phantom line is full range class D. All other series are class A/B. You can classify it anyway you would like, but just as Rex stated above, they are separate.


----------



## zql8tr

PPI_GUY said:


> Another curious thing is that back when I started this thread...in January of 2011, the Phantom 5 channel had just been announced as part of the Phantom series lineup on the PPI website. Now, nearly 14 months later the 5 channel has yet to hit the market. While Polk's 5 channel, probably using the same board, is readily available.
> What the heck???


We are putting our own spin on the amp and the factory has not quite got it right. We should have it ready here in a couple months or so...


----------



## zql8tr

rexroadj said:


> Lets not forget the frigging head units


Which model? The Inteq series are here and shipping.


----------



## trumpet

another-user said:


> is anyone else getting a turn on/off pop with this amp?


Which amp are you asking about, specifically?


----------



## another-user

trumpet said:


> Which amp are you asking about, specifically?


the 900.4. im running it in 3 channel (2 6x9s and a bridged sub) and im getting a slight popping on all 3 speakers.


----------



## MDubYa

zql8tr said:


> Which model? The Inteq series are here and shipping.


INGENIX units...Griz was talking them up like crazy and the web site said fall of 2011...needless to say we don't have them.


----------



## rexroadj

zql8tr said:


> Which model? The Inteq series are here and shipping.


And the Inteq's look awesome! I am holding out for the "other one" 
What were they called again????? Sasquatch? chupicabra? something like that I think.........

Just kidding........ Seriously.....Where the hell are they!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## trumpet

another-user said:


> the 900.4. im running it in 3 channel (2 6x9s and a bridged sub) and im getting a slight popping on all 3 speakers.


I have installed only 1 900.4, my own, and it's dead silent while turning on and shutting off.

Does anyone know if the Phantom amps have a built-in turn-on delay?


----------



## 07azhhr

trumpet said:


> I have installed only 1 900.4, my own, and it's dead silent while turning on and shutting off.
> 
> Does anyone know if the Phantom amps have a built-in turn-on delay?


Yes there is a delay. When I still had my rears in use (off of the factory amp) the rears would come on first. Then the fronts and subs would come on shortly after.





another-user said:


> the 900.4. im running it in 3 channel (2 6x9s and a bridged sub) and im getting a slight popping on all 3 speakers.


I too have zero noise issues with my 900.4. Check all your connections.


----------



## another-user

ive got some crappy wiring here, as im just breaking in a new system in my basement right now. ill worry about it once its in my car with quality wiring.


----------



## cvjoint

Looks like I'll be installing a P1000.1 and a P600.2, since I can't get my hands on the 4 and 5 channel versions. 

The endcaps are going to have to stay on, since we can't figure out how to get rid of them.


----------



## 07azhhr

cvjoint said:


> The endcaps are going to have to stay on, since we can't figure out how to get rid of them.


I still think there must be more screws on the top section. But you would have to remove the board. It could be part of the heat sink like you mentioned before but I would then wonder why the need for the bottom screws? That is why I still think there must be more screws.


----------



## bumpsquad

zql8tr said:


> Again, yep!


It seems the deal to take on Precision Power was private. Is there public record of this transaction? I would like to understand why you would buy a brand but not the IP for the signature line? In these types of deals it is usually all of the company, including all IP. 

If I can have this, perhaps I can review it and lend some more info for the group interested? 

If not, I will try to communicate with their counsel and see if I can understand that better.


----------



## PPI_GUY

bumpsquad said:


> It seems the deal to take on Precision Power was private. Is there public record of this transaction? I would like to understand why you would buy a brand but not the IP for the signature line? In these types of deals it is usually all of the company, including all IP.
> 
> If I can have this, perhaps I can review it and lend some more info for the group interested?
> 
> If not, I will try to communicate with their counsel and see if I can understand that better.


If the intellectual property never belonged to PPI then, it wasn't theirs to sell. PPI probably paid CHY for her design work and allowed her to keep the artwork as her own. I doubt they (PPI) ever thought about having to revisit this issue some 15-20 years later.
I seriously doubt Epsilon will alow you to see the "fine print" re: the purchase of PPI from DEI.


----------



## [email protected]

cvjoint said:


> Looks like I'll be installing a P1000.1 and a P600.2, since I can't get my hands on the 4 and 5 channel versions.
> 
> The endcaps are going to have to stay on, since we can't figure out how to get rid of them.


The 4-ch's are still on Ebay. Are you just not wanting to order from Ebay?


----------



## Darth SQ

bumpsquad said:


> It seems the deal to take on Precision Power was private. Is there public record of this transaction? I would like to understand why you would buy a brand but not the IP for the signature line? In these types of deals it is usually all of the company, including all IP.
> 
> If I can have this, perhaps I can review it and lend some more info for the group interested?
> 
> If not, I will try to communicate with their counsel and see if I can understand that better.


Carolyn Hall Young owned and still owns the rights to all the artwork to this day.
That's why you see her name or initials on every Art amp.
That's also likely why PPI in 97 went to the "muffler" amp heatsink because she designed the unique Art heatsink too.

BTW, has anyone seen that commercial where the lady is driving her daughter's boyfriends fast and furious Honda Del Sol(?) with the bangin' system in the back to the grocery store?
The amp's an Xtant and you can thank CHY for that industrial look design as well.

Lastly, there's a lot of old wounds still around from a few years back when a former DIYMA douchebag (he who must not be named) tried to claim said IP as his own starting a huge mess that required the shutdown of an entire production line in China and some serious damage control and righting of a great wrong on the part of a few on here.

All you have to do is search ppi art, Carolyn Hall Young, or CHY, and you will find literally days worth of reading that answer your concerns.


So, I ask you kindly not to contact Epsilon and not to stir it all up again.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## MoJoWales

> So, I ask you kindly not to contact Epsilon and not to stir it all up again.


Well said. 

Does anyone have information on the new INGENIX source units? 

MOJoWales


----------



## rexroadj

MoJoWales said:


> Well said.
> 
> Does anyone have information on the new INGENIX source units?
> 
> MOJoWales


I have all the info you need on them! 

They look frigging awesome! But are not available yet and no one is giving a solid eta!


----------



## Darth SQ

rexroadj said:


> I have all the info you need on them!
> 
> They look frigging awesome! But are not available yet and no one is giving a solid eta!


What do you mean by all the info?
More than what's posted on the precision power website?

If so, please post it all before I f'n k*#l you. 

The 771 just might be the hardest piece of my car audio puzzle to come by which is rediculous because everything else that I needed and have found hasn't been made for 16 years.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## zql8tr

The last I heard, the Ingenix models are coming soon. I can find out a better date, but not until Monday, sorry guys... The Farenheit Ingenix double DIN piece is here and shipping, for those who cannot wait for the SS or PPI branded ones.


----------



## bumpsquad

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Carolyn Hall Young owned and still owns the rights to all the artwork to this day.
> That's why you see her name or initials on every Art amp.
> That's also likely why PPI in 97 went to the "muffler" amp heatsink because she designed the unique Art heatsink too.
> 
> BTW, has anyone seen that commercial where the lady is driving her daughter's boyfriends fast and furious Honda Del Sol(?) with the bangin' system in the back to the grocery store?
> The amp's an Xtant and you can thank CHY for that industrial look design as well.
> 
> Lastly, there's a lot of old wounds still around from a few years back when a former DIYMA douchebag (he who must not be named) tried to claim said IP as his own starting a huge mess that required the shutdown of an entire production line in China and some serious damage control and righting of a great wrong on the part of a few on here.
> 
> All you have to do is search ppi art, Carolyn Hall Young, or CHY, and you will find literally days worth of reading that answer your concerns.
> 
> 
> So, I ask you kindly not to contact Epsilon and not to stir it all up again.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Very interesting indeed. Law can be a messy field.

Thanks.


----------



## Darth SQ

zql8tr said:


> The last I heard, the Ingenix models are coming soon. I can find out a better date, but not until Monday, sorry guys... The Farenheit Ingenix double DIN piece is here and shipping, for those who cannot wait for the SS or PPI branded ones.


Grizz had always said the PPI Ingenix SU's would be the last to become available stating the Soundstreams would be released first.

Looks like not much longer if the Faranheits are now out. 

Finally........


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> What do you mean by all the info?
> More than what's posted on the precision power website?
> 
> If so, please post it all before I f'n k*#l you.
> 
> The 771 just might be the hardest piece of my car audio puzzle to come by which is rediculous because everything else that I needed and have found hasn't been made for 16 years.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I think you were missing my sarcasm  All the info is that they seem awesome (and they do) and they are mythical at this point!!! LOL!!! Thats pretty much all anyone needs to know 


I really hope they are on the way soon! Maybe they want to send me one to test with the new prototype 15" that Alpine is sending me to review


----------



## cvjoint

I spent the day installing the 1000.1 and 600.2 today. They are supposed to replace two Clarion amplifers. 

The midbass amp, 600.2 was tested first. It ran ok for 10 second than a loud nasty blast hit my right speaker. I hear one of these before, when there is a short. Music went out. Turned the volume down, meanwhile it started popping insanely loud over and over again. Scared the **** out of me. Didn't know how to turn it off. The P99 takes a few seconds to power off while I was sweating. 

Took the speaker wires out and turned all the amps on. The PPI showed power, but no protect mode. I took the wires out and tested the midbass leads on my trusty Clarion. Safe to say my midbasses survived. 

As for the PPI amps. They are coming out.


----------



## rc10mike

So much for new school PPI...

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


----------



## mynym

cvjoint said:


> I spent the day installing the 1000.1 and 600.2 today. They are supposed to replace two Clarion amplifers.
> 
> The midbass amp, 600.2 was tested first. It ran ok for 10 second than a loud nasty blast hit my right speaker. I hear one of these before, when there is a short. Music went out. Turned the volume down, meanwhile it started popping insanely loud over and over again. Scared the **** out of me. Didn't know how to turn it off. The P99 takes a few seconds to power off while I was sweating.
> 
> Took the speaker wires out and turned all the amps on. The PPI showed power, but no protect mode. I took the wires out and tested the midbass leads on my trusty Clarion. Safe to say my midbasses survived.
> 
> As for the PPI amps. They are coming out.


Bad luck/bad amp.


----------



## cvjoint

mynym said:


> Bad luck/bad amp.


Probably. I don't have the guts to try a replacement though. That popping at super loud levels scared the crap out of me. If it was on the planars or domes it would have shred them apart I would think. Luckily no speaker was hurt. 

I don't want to rant on about to much. I just figured I would tell the community how it went, good or bad. The expectations were pretty high.


----------



## PPI_GUY

cvjoint, real world experiences are exactly what we need. No glossing over the ugly when it comes calling. Still too early to pronounce the Phantom line as a failure though. Lots of people running them without any problems. But...bad reports are showing up nonetheless.


----------



## ousooner2

Yeah my p900.4 worked great. Just the bad/completely stripped speaker terminal is the only bad thing. I'd give it another try. I know how you feel though. My MB Quart Q4.150 popped my tweeters randomly one day.


----------



## JAX

PPI_GUY said:


> cvjoint, real world experiences are exactly what we need. No glossing over the ugly when it comes calling. Still too early to pronounce the Phantom line as a failure though. Lots of people running them without any problems. But...bad reports are showing up nonetheless.



wonder how this will effect resale value if people change them out? 

some are having issues others not, the ones I have installed are still going strong..just not in my car.


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## duro78

Every amp has incidents of failure. No matter how high or low end it might be. I really wouldn't discredit the phantom based on a few incidents.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## beerdrnkr

Well now I'm really second guessing getting these amps.


----------



## [email protected]

beerdrnkr said:


> Well now I'm really second guessing getting these amps.


Me too, I am not gonna say the PPI is a bad design, I am worried about quality control with the problems that have popped up.


----------



## duro78

Why are you guys worried about a couple bad experiences? Every major manufacturer has a few isolated incidents. It comes with the territory of doing mass numbers of units. There's no such thing as a perfect manufactured/produced product. EVERY so called good amp on the market has incidents where customers had bad experiences.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## ousooner2

^This. People are MUCH more inclined to share a bad experience than a good one. The P900.4 has great power, small, doesn't look terrible, incredible price, ability to run active, etc. It's a no brainer for budget minded people. 

Hell...my Audison is in protect right now! I think we can all agree that Audison > PPI. Just goes to show that it can happen with any manuf. I definitely wouldn't steer clear of the Phantom line just b/c a few bad amps.


----------



## DAT

BeatsDownLow said:


> Me too, I am not gonna say the PPI is a bad design, I am worried about quality control with the problems that have popped up.


I agree, you get what you pay for and I have had several returns... sucks Arse !



duro78 said:


> Why are you guys worried about a couple bad experiences? Every major manufacturer has a few isolated incidents. It comes with the territory of doing mass numbers of units. There's no such thing as a perfect manufactured/produced product. EVERY so called good amp on the market has incidents where customers had bad experiences.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



True, but when 8 out of 20+ PP Phantom and Black Ice are having issues. You gotta say WTH.


AT the moment I'm not stocking anymore and thinking about only ordering if the customer requests one. Too many other amps on the market that never get a return @ same price point...


----------



## duro78

8 out of 20 lol. We all obviously don't know the stats but for every bad phantom I've seen a lot more top brand amps crap out. I completely understand your basing your decision on your in store experience but Ppi has sold a lot of units with a minimal number of reported issues. Now I could be completely talking out my ass because I can only base it on what I read on the forums. Agreed the phantom and black ice models are still farely new so we don't exactly know how they're gonna hold up overtime. Imo its not really fare to down an amp because of a few isolated incidents especially considering all electronic devices share their fare number of failures. Its just part of the business. As a matter of fact I wouldn't even single out electronics. Anything that's done in high numbers will suffer from quality related issues here and there. I guess the trick in manufacturing history minimize that number as much as possible within the parameters of keeping diyma cost effective. Sorry for the rant I just love the phantom series its been awhile since I had an amp that took the market by storm the way this one did.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## DAT

duro78 said:


> 8 out of 20 lol. We all obviously don't know the stats but for every bad phantom I've seen a lot more top brand amps crap out. I completely understand your basing your decision on your in store experience but Ppi has sold a lot of units with a minimal number of reported issues. Now I could be completely talking out my ass because I can only base it on what I read on the forums. Agreed the phantom and black ice models are still farely new so we don't exactly know how they're gonna hold up overtime. Imo its not really fare to down an amp because of a few isolated incidents especially considering all electronic devices share their fare number of failures. Its just part of the business. As a matter of fact I wouldn't even single out electronics. Anything that's done in high numbers will suffer from quality related issues here and there. I guess the trick in manufacturing history minimize that number as much as possible within the parameters of keeping diyma cost effective. Sorry for the rant I just love the phantom series its been awhile since I had an amp that took the market by storm the way this one did.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Yeah not saying I don't like them, but looks bad when you carry an amp brand that fails... 

I was hoping they would never have issues.


----------



## ousooner2

You've sold 20 and had 8 of them come back to you or PPI?


----------



## duro78

DAT said:


> Yeah not saying I don't like them, but looks bad when you carry an amp brand that fails...
> 
> I was hoping they would never have issues.


I completely understand where your coming from. I really hope they hold up because IMO they're the best amp for the money out there.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## DAT

ousooner2 said:


> You've sold 20 and had 8 of them come back to you or PPI?


I meant to say I've sold more than 20 of each but had a combination of 8 of them come back..

most have a loud noise on a channel. a couple had what i was told when returned a cold solder. 

i don't know i just returned them after tested, did not open them up.


Funny Soundstream is same company but yet to have a return.


----------



## ousooner2

At a 20% return rate *AT MOST* (for your batch of amps), that's still not too good. Didn't know these were having issues like this. I HATE waiting on the p900.4 to come back in stock and honestly it seems like no one has any idea when it will be. 

What amps would you recommend that you say are a better value at this price point or close to it?


----------



## ChrisB

DAT said:


> I meant to say I've sold more than 20 of each but had a combination of 8 of them come back..
> 
> most have a loud noise on a channel. a couple had what i was told when returned a cold solder.
> 
> i don't know i just returned them after tested, did not open them up.


I heard the same thing about the DEI/Polk Audio amplifiers that share the same design as the PPI amplifiers. An installer who works at a semi-local (to me) dealer advised me not to invest in the Polk Audio variants because they had lots of returns and problems with them. While a bummer, it is not shocking news that the PPI variants are experiencing the same issues.

Hopefully they get the kinks worked out in later revisions. Until then, I'm sticking with the JL Audio HD line if I go full-range class d again.


----------



## ousooner2

ChrisB said:


> I heard the same thing about the DEI/Polk Audio amplifiers that share the same design as the PPI amplifiers. An installer who works at a semi-local (to me) dealer advised me not to invest in the Polk Audio variants because they had lots of returns and problems with them. While a bummer, it is not shocking news that the PPI variants are experiencing the same issues.
> 
> Hopefully they get the kinks worked out in later revisions. Until then, I'm sticking with the JL Audio HD line if I go full-range class d again.


Wow.....this makes it that much worse. Didn't think about looking into the Polk variant of the amp. I wonder how the Hertz is holding up. If those are holding up, then maybe whatever part is different is the reason. This makes my decision to change amps a little easier I guess.


----------



## [email protected]

Anybody having problems with the PPI mono?


----------



## PPI_GUY

Don't know if he would reveal the numbers but, Grizz Archer would know what the 'fail rate' is on the Phantoms. 
I picked up another JL XD600/1 (used) the other day. Comparable power to the PPI P1000.1 at 2 ohm. Can't say enough about these little amps. Tiny footprint, very efficent, probably not bullitt-proof but, never had a problem with them. 
Hopefully PPI can get the bugs worked out soon.


----------



## durwood

The first ppi900.4 I bought had a rattle in it. Popped it open to check it out before I even applied power and realized something was trapped between the heatsink and circuit board. I had to loosen the board up and shake it until it fell out. What came out was a black circular piece of metal about the size of a hole punch (thought I saved it somewhere but can't find it now). If I had to guess, it was something that was punched out of the end cap for one of the controls. Since it powered up ok, I wrote it off and chalked it up to boy was I lucky. Thinking about it now, in the manufacturing process there could have been a stamping station nearby assembly and it got in there by mistake. Total hypothetical guess. No idea if this was also a possible cause to the other issues people might have had.

Having said all that, I bought another one from a different distributor and have installed 2 of these 900.4's in my car and both working perfectly. I think people have the right to be skeptical, however it doesn't sound like a catastrophe yet. Just maybe a disgruntled dealer or two and a couple other isolated other incidences. I too would hold out for a real failure rate, but most MFG's don't announce that stuff.


----------



## ZAKOH

ousooner2 said:


> At a 20% return rate *AT MOST* (for your batch of amps), that's still not too good. Didn't know these were having issues like this. I HATE waiting on the p900.4 to come back in stock and honestly it seems like no one has any idea when it will be.
> 
> What amps would you recommend that you say are a better value at this price point or close to it?


Polk D4000.4 and Kenwood XR-4S have pretty good reviews.


----------



## Niaouli

ousooner2 said:


> At a 20% return rate *AT MOST* (for your batch of amps), that's still not too good. Didn't know these were having issues like this. I HATE waiting on the p900.4 to come back in stock and honestly it seems like no one has any idea when it will be.
> 
> What amps would you recommend that you say are a better value at this price point or close to it?


I would like to know too if there's another bargain over that amp (now using a Genesis Compact Four but too big)!!!!


----------



## ZAKOH

In my car, the P900.4 was screwed onto subwoofer box for the last 4 months, which I abuse on regular basis. If it works this way for 2 years without breaking, I'd say it was a good amplifier (I prefer replacing the sub amplifier than finding a new mounting location, as long as the amps don't break frequently...)


----------



## ousooner2

Soooo pissed I sold my XR-4s. Should have kept it. Not sure what I was thinking. Right now its between getting another p900.4, trying to find a XR-4s, or Arc KS300.4 if I want to spend a little more


----------



## duro78

Kenwood would definitely be my next choice. Still wanna try the xr4s

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I have all the info you need on them!
> 
> They look frigging awesome! But are not available yet and no one is giving a solid eta!


The fact is this guys... We have identified a slight noise problem that needs to be rectified. Working with the MIPS chip is not easy. The minute I find out a concrete ETA, I will let you know. However, a bit of advice. Wait until I have tested one myself and confirm that it is fine. I have had a fees samples and none of them worked properly as they were earlier models and still in the prototyping stage. I have a screwed up talent for finding a weakness in a source unit. I swear they hate me! lol


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> The fact is this guys... We have identified a slight noise problem that needs to be rectified. Working with the MIPS chip is not easy. The minute I find out a concrete ETA, I will let you know. However, a bit of advice. Wait until I have tested one myself and confirm that it is fine. I have had a fees samples and none of them worked properly as they were earlier models and still in the prototyping stage. I have a screwed up talent for finding a weakness in a source unit. I swear they hate me! lol


Fair enough! I was just breaking balls


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Don't know if he would reveal the numbers but, Grizz Archer would know what the 'fail rate' is on the Phantoms.
> I picked up another JL XD600/1 (used) the other day. Comparable power to the PPI P1000.1 at 2 ohm. Can't say enough about these little amps. Tiny footprint, very efficent, probably not bullitt-proof but, never had a problem with them.
> Hopefully PPI can get the bugs worked out soon.


C'mon man, you know I tell it like it is, whether you like it or not! lol So i just got back for a quick visit to get some answers for you. We have sold about 350 each of both the mono block and the 4 channel. We have sold about 200 or so of the 2 channel. We have received exactly 3 of the mono blocks, and 3 of the 4 channels, and none of the 2 channels. I do not know what the problems were or if any were "no problem found" which is all too common. I should not sound shocked, but when amps that small have a legit failure rate of less than 1%, I'm stoked!

Which brings up a question from me. I was invited to come back into this thread from a friend on the forum. (Sorry I have been absent. I do not get my notices anymore on my phone or email, so I thought nothing was going on that needed my attention.) Anyway, I heard that people were having some issues that I might be able to help with. To be honest, when the rate of anything electronic is less than 5% failure rate, I am really not concerned about a problem with the amps themselves. I was expecting there to be a lot of people complaining about them, but we have only received those 6 amps in total since their release. 

If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know. And if nobody sees a need for me to jump into a thread for any reason whatsoever, please be my "notice" and email me a link, until Ant and I get my notices resolved.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Fair enough! I was just breaking balls


That just made me think about what Betty White said. If you had not heard, she said she did not understand why guys say "grow a pair". They are so sensitive, and what guys should say is - grow a vagina - they are way tougher than a pair and those things can take a beating!

Betty White rules!!!


----------



## Big T

I just got my truck playing last month after a rebuild to use 2 4ch Phantom amps. I had 4 of the old 1999 power class Limited Edition White amps and was very nervous about the D-class amps but they have proven themselves. Those 2 little amps are doing everything the 12 channels I had before was. I have been very impressed with the new PPI...


----------



## pjf1fan

I'm looking at getting a P900.4 and P1000.1 but the online vendor of my choice has the 4-channel on back order. Other than the Reference series Soundstream amps, which SS would be a comparable alternative to these price, power and sound quality wise? Thanks.


----------



## rton20s

Check out the Tarantula Nano amps. They're the same amps in a different chassis from what I understand. Better looking in my opinion, too. Save for that godawful spider they refuse to let go of. 

Tarantula Nano


----------



## Bayboy

I've been checking out their whole line up. Seems quite a few amps are very similar. Was really interested in the 5 channels, but I can't tell any difference other than casing. Anyone have a clue?


----------



## rton20s

If anyone can answer that question it would be Grizz Archer. My guess, and this is completely out of left field, is that the amps are identical in terms of the board and the components used. Financially, it just makes more sense for Epsilon. 

I was really hoping to find a true “sleeper” from them in a similar unit from Power Acoustik. However, it appears that the only compact class D amps that PA has right now are the Razors. These appear to be clones of the less desirable Picasso Nanos. 

I know Grizz commented last year about how they view their different brands, but it would be interesting to hear what they have to say regarding the future of Soundstream vs Precision Power. Do they see one being an ultimately higher end brand than the other? Do they see diverging focus between the two brands (SPL vs SQ)? Will they ever get rid of that horrible spider logo?


----------



## Bayboy

The Soundstream & PPI 5 channels were exactly the ones I compared. You must have compared a few too? LOL Even the new Black Ice 5 channel seems to be the same. If that's the case then it would come down to which casing one desired over the others. Perhaps Grizz can shed more light....

Sent from my SCH-I500


----------



## Bkp02

I have found out the PPI is out of the Phantom 900.4 and they are waiting on the factory to resupply....however Polk audio, Hertz, crunch, soundstream all use the same d class amp board. PPI's specs were the best followed by Polk but the polk amp is 100 more then PPI's for less power output. I too am waiting for Phantom 900's to be back in stock. *sigh*


----------



## Bayboy

Crunch?! Didn't even know they had a class D full range amp. Then again, who really pays attention to Crunch.

Sent from my SCH-I500


----------



## 07azhhr

Bayboy said:


> Crunch?! Didn't even know they had a class D full range amp. Then again, who really pays attention to Crunch.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I500


 
I do not think that they do. I can only find info on mono block class D's and they are certainly not using this same chipset and board combos. The one with specs like the PPI1000.1 is 15 3/4" x 9 3/4" x 2".


----------



## PPI_GUY

Crunch is a Maxxsonics owned company I believe? Don't think they offer a full range class D either. Atleast nothing that I've heard of.


----------



## Niaouli

rton20s said:


> Check out the Tarantula Nano amps. They're the same amps in a different chassis from what I understand. Better looking in my opinion, too. Save for that godawful spider they refuse to let go of.
> 
> Tarantula Nano


Yep I was looking at them too!!! Very small and plenty power but as no one bought them can't really know about SQ...


----------



## [email protected]

Niaouli said:


> Yep I was looking at them too!!! Very small and plenty power but as no one bought them can't really know about SQ...


I dont think they are for sale yet. Its the same as the PPI boards anyways, so they will sound the same


----------



## rton20s

Bayboy said:


> The Soundstream & PPI 5 channels were exactly the ones I compared. You must have compared a few too? LOL Even the new Black Ice 5 channel seems to be the same. If that's the case then it would come down to which casing one desired over the others. Perhaps Grizz can shed more light....
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I500


I believe Grizz has stated that the Precision Power Black Ice amps have new boards, but are based on the Soundstream Rubicons. I would guess then that those could be cross compared in terms of quality. 

It would be interesting to see if Grizz or maybe zql8tr could comment on how the lines rank/compare across brands. Power Class vs Reference, Black Ice vs Rubicon, Sedona vs Tarantula/Picasso, PDX vs XXX, Phantom vs Tarantula Nano, etc.


----------



## Niaouli

BeatsDownLow said:


> I dont think they are for sale yet. Its the same as the PPI boards anyways, so they will sound the same


So it should be nice!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JAX

Grizz Archer said:


> C'mon man, you know I tell it like it is, whether you like it or not! lol So i just got back for a quick visit to get some answers for you. We have sold about 350 each of both the mono block and the 4 channel. We have sold about 200 or so of the 2 channel. We have received exactly 3 of the mono blocks, and 3 of the 4 channels, and none of the 2 channels. I do not know what the problems were or if any were "no problem found" which is all too common. I should not sound shocked, but when amps that small have a legit failure rate of less than 1%, I'm stoked!
> 
> Which brings up a question from me. I was invited to come back into this thread from a friend on the forum. (Sorry I have been absent. I do not get my notices anymore on my phone or email, so I thought nothing was going on that needed my attention.) Anyway, I heard that people were having some issues that I might be able to help with. To be honest, when the rate of anything electronic is less than 5% failure rate, I am really not concerned about a problem with the amps themselves. I was expecting there to be a lot of people complaining about them, but we have only received those 6 amps in total since their release.
> 
> If there is anything else I can help with, please let me know. And if nobody sees a need for me to jump into a thread for any reason whatsoever, please be my "notice" and email me a link, until Ant and I get my notices resolved.


will the SS version have this issue resolved?

when are the coming out?

just asking


----------



## JAX

my neighbor just told me the other day he was taking all his stuff out and selling it.

so I might have a 900.4 and 1000.1 for sale..might...unless he was bs'ing me.

no issues with either of them


----------



## trumpet

JAX said:


> will the SS version have this issue resolved?


I think the more important thing to note from Grizz' message was the failure rate is so low there's really nothing that needs to be resolved.


----------



## SQfreak

Just got my 600.2 last night and holy crap this thing is tiny! I was shocked really. I mean holding it and looking at the specs makes you think "Yeeaaaahh right!" but we shall see how it goes.


----------



## JAX

trumpet said:


> I think the more important thing to note from Grizz' message was the failure rate is so low there's really nothing that needs to be resolved.


Might be low according to his numbers but according to DATs returns it was higher for him. 

I am not trying to diss them. I had one. I installed 2 in my friends. 

But since grizz said there might be a problem then you can't blame anyOne for wanting to get that resolved first. 

I happen to be a fan of the ppi/ SS gear.


----------



## [email protected]

JAX said:


> Might be low according to his numbers but according to DATs returns it was higher for him.
> 
> I am not trying to diss them. I had one. I installed 2 in my friends.
> 
> But since grizz said there might be a problem then you can't blame anyOne for wanting to get that resolved first.
> 
> I happen to be a fan of the ppi/ SS gear.


I am pretty sure the problem he was referring to in that post was the headunits.


----------



## Big T

pjf1fan said:


> I'm looking at getting a P900.4 and P1000.1 but the online vendor of my choice has the 4-channel on back order. Other than the Reference series Soundstream amps, which SS would be a comparable alternative to these price, power and sound quality wise? Thanks.



You was a Soundstream TN4.900D and TN1.1200D. these are the Nano line and I am 90%sure they are the same boards as the Phantom amps. I have an email into Grizz to verify....I places 3rd in Amature SQ t SBN 2 weeks ago with my 2 P900.4s. I really cant beleave these things...


----------



## 07azhhr

JAX said:


> Might be low according to his numbers but according to DATs returns it was higher for him.
> 
> I am not trying to diss them. I had one. I installed 2 in my friends.
> 
> But since grizz said there might be a problem then you can't blame anyOne for wanting to get that resolved first.
> 
> I happen to be a fan of the ppi/ SS gear.


If you look at what Dat wrote, he stated first that it was 8 out of 20+. Then he goes on to mention that it is 8 out of 20+ of each line i.e. 20+ of Phantoms AND 20+ of Black Ices and that the 8 failures was a mix of these TWO lines of amps. That to me tells me almost nothing since how do we know how many were Phantoms and how many were BI's. Keep in mind that the BI's are NOT using the same board/chips as the Phantoms as they are actually A/B class amps other then the three mono amps. Ratio wise that is not good in any case but how do we know which of these two lines is the bigger offender or perhaps the MAIN offender. 



BeatsDownLow said:


> I am pretty sure the problem he was referring to in that post was the headunits.


 
Grizz stated that the Hu's were not out yet because they are still working out the bugs so I do not think he or Dat was refering to the HU's.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Grizz Archer said:


> The fact is this guys... We have identified a slight noise problem that needs to be rectified. Working with the MIPS chip is not easy. The minute I find out a concrete ETA, I will let you know. However, a bit of advice. Wait until I have tested one myself and confirm that it is fine. I have had a fees samples and none of them worked properly as they were earlier models and still in the prototyping stage. I have a screwed up talent for finding a weakness in a source unit. I swear they hate me! lol


I have been getting questions. The thread got off topic. The noise was in regard to the first Ingenix head units, not any of the amps...


----------



## JAX

Sorry grizz. My fault. Reading to fast. 

So when is eta for new SS amps ?


----------



## metanium

BNIB 900.4 in classifieds here on DIYMA:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/127490-fs-bnib-ppi-phantom-900-4-a.html


----------



## Niaouli

What do you think guys of the MTX td75.4 of Rockford Fosgate R400-4D? 
The're are cheap and may be good as the P900.4? Anyone heard or tried them? 
Need a small amp (max lenght 30 cm x 20 cm wide x 5 cm height) and few power (minimum 4 x 50 rms) to power front a/d/s 345is and 2 x (6 x 9) rear woofer/subwoofers. 
Buget around 200 $ w/o shipping (living far away...)


----------



## rton20s

I’m personally not a big fan of the current RF stuff, but I also haven’t given it a very close look. Same holds true for MTX, though if I’m not mistaken the guts of that amp are very similar (if not the same) as the Massive Audio NX4. I’m pretty sure the crossovers are different though. 

There are two “big draws” for the P900.4. First is power. Rated at 145w RMS x 4 @ 4 Ohms at this price point is practically unheard of, especially in this size package. Second is the flexible crossovers. The x10 switch allows you to Hi-Pass from 20 Hz – 4 Khz and Low-pass from 50 Hz – 5 Khz. A nice touch if you plan to go active and don’t have another capable crossover. 

Given your size and output requirements, with no mention of crossover, I might recommend taking a look elsewhere. Especially considering the availability of the P900.4 currently. The Pioneer GM-D9500F might fit the bill for you. 22.5 cm x 20 cm x 5.7 cm, 75w RMS x 4 @ 4 Ohms, but a pretty typical 40 Hz – 500 Hz Hi/Low-pass crossover. And it should be pretty easy to find it well under $200.


----------



## Niaouli

I'm not in a hurry so I think that the best option for me is to get these when they will be back in stock.

Thanks rton20s


----------



## JetStar88

What's the story on Balanced Differential Inputs for the Black Ice series? 

PPI's website says that a BLT (can't find much info on it) is necessary. 

Pics and info on Sonic Electronix site says that they feature Balanced Signal Input, but there's no BLT connection. I'm specifically looking at the BK580.5 and BK340.4.

I'd prefer to avoid an additional component. JL's Slash amps and Kicker's ZX amps seem to have this ability. But I really like PPI's price points and specs.


----------



## Gary S

JetStar88 said:


> What's the story on Balanced Differential Inputs for the Black Ice series?
> 
> PPI's website says that a BLT (can't find much info on it) is necessary.
> 
> Pics and info on Sonic Electronix site says that they feature Balanced Signal Input, but there's no BLT connection. I'm specifically looking at the BK580.5 and BK340.4.
> 
> I'd prefer to avoid an additional component. JL's Slash amps and Kicker's ZX amps seem to have this ability. But I really like PPI's price points and specs.


 - I just looked at the BK340.4. pics on Sonic and I see dual BLT inputs. You may have to use/buy the PPI or Soundstream BLT unit to use those inputs.


----------



## rexroadj

Gary S said:


> - I just looked at the BK340.4. pics on Sonic and I see dual BLT inputs. You may have to use/buy the PPI or Soundstream BLT unit to use those inputs.


That is correct! The new or old blt's are needed for this feature! Just like Zapco uses the symbolink.


----------



## trumpet

...so you need 2 BLTs for a 4 channel amp? I looked into getting one of these for a customer but if I need to order 2 of them that changes things.


----------



## ousooner2

Might as well just add a processor in the mix. Not sure how much the BLT for this is though..


----------



## trumpet

ousooner2 said:


> Might as well just add a processor in the mix. Not sure how much the BLT for this is though..


$60-70


----------



## rexroadj

trumpet said:


> ...so you need 2 BLTs for a 4 channel amp? I looked into getting one of these for a customer but if I need to order 2 of them that changes things.


If your using 4 channels as front/rears......or I believe you can copy the input? I forget to be honest  I think I used two channels of a blt to my ref's and ran the amp active to mids/tweets from the xovers on the amp...... Maybe that was when I ran it bridged? I really dont remember....WOW this is just sad  I am so old........


----------



## W8 a minute

Is that Phantom 5 channel out yet?


----------



## ousooner2

Just called Sonic to ask if they received their shipment of P900.4's as I was told they'd get more in today. The guy said that the person told me wrong and it's MAY 18th, not April. :blush: Bummer. 

This was a good budget amp and seemed to sound very nice for the price.


----------



## rexroadj

I have a p600.2 that will be in my hands Friday  Can't wait!!!! Going to power a set of SPR-50 (alpine type R 5.25" coaxials).....Not my ideal choice, but for my jeep they will be perfect! 190w a side should help with road noise with the top/doors off


----------



## omega48er

^ sweet bro keep me posted. 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## captainobvious

Sorry, just catching up on missed action in the forums. I enjoyed this part:



jimmy2345 said:


> Of course...that's because 90% of the people on this forum are never happy with their current equipment. They jump on the bandwagon of the current forum boners and then sell when the boner goes limp three months later. Maybe if you people would BUY QUALITY SQ product first, and what actually sounds good to your ears, then maybe you would see my point of view.


Followed by this...



Jimmy2345 said:


> I have used close to it all.


Pot, meet kettle...


----------



## PPI_GUY

captainobvious said:


> Sorry, just catching up on missed action in the forums. I enjoyed this part:
> 
> 
> 
> Followed by this...
> 
> 
> 
> Pot, meet kettle...


Yeah, that guy was a douche and a half.


----------



## rexroadj

Ok, hooked up my 600.2...... HOLY SMALL!!!! I absolutely cant get over the size! These can be mounted in most glove boxes if you wanted! Seriously anywhere! This opens up a whole new world for install! To think that its almost 200w a side is crazy!

I HATE the mounting feet....WTF? Terrible for my use thats for sure... Mounting on a basic board? No worries! 
Everything else about it seems really solid and shows no sign of its low price! Tons of power, it was 80deg today and I ran it hard for a couple hours (granted no top or doors and its under my seat) but it was luke warm at best. I will put up a pic of it later....At this point I'm sold on them! Two thumbs up Epsilon!!! Wish these were around when I had my truck! I could have run a thousand of them  Also I will add that I only have a 40amp alt at this point and even at full tilt my lights didnt dim and my needle didnt budge......Thats pretty amazing. My kicker ix amp made it go crazy!


----------



## ousooner2

Welp...the PPI was nice and got the job done, but I just went with the Image Dynamics Q450.4 

I still think this is one of the best budget amps out there. It was pretty darn clean power and does PLENTY of it.


----------



## rexroadj

Here's a pic of the 600.2......TINY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its a WONDERFUL thing


----------



## captainobvious

rexroadj said:


> Ok, hooked up my 600.2...... HOLY SMALL!!!! I absolutely cant get over the size! These can be mounted in most glove boxes if you wanted! Seriously anywhere! This opens up a whole new world for install! To think that its almost 200w a side is crazy!
> 
> I HATE the mounting feet....WTF? Terrible for my use thats for sure... Mounting on a basic board? No worries!
> Everything else about it seems really solid and shows no sign of its low price! Tons of power, it was 80deg today and I ran it hard for a couple hours (granted no top or doors and its under my seat) but it was luke warm at best. I will put up a pic of it later....At this point I'm sold on them! Two thumbs up Epsilon!!! Wish these were around when I had my truck! I could have run a thousand of them  Also I will add that I only have a 40amp alt at this point and even at full tilt my lights didnt dim and my needle didnt budge......Thats pretty amazing. My kicker ix amp made it go crazy!


Thanks for the update Rex. Can you comment on what you thought of the performance of this amp? How clean? Low noise floor? I'd like to do a semi-budget install and these would be a great fit for me as long as they supply clean amplification. 

Thanks!


----------



## rexroadj

ZERO noise floor! VERY clean in my evaluation considering the install? I did listen to it for a long time at high volumes in my garage. With the power, price, and features I wouldnt look for another amp for any situation personally! I'm pretty sold on mini class D from PPI at this point? (was not a fan of the kenwood, and original pdx....) Aside from the mounting feet I have ZERO complaints... Dials are easy to use, hook up with small screwdrivers was no prob, and I like how they include the adapter for larger gauge wire....I was fine running straight 8g from my block in this situation (could fit 4 in it easy though).


----------



## captainobvious

rexroadj said:


> ZERO noise floor! VERY clean in my evaluation considering the install? I did listen to it for a long time at high volumes in my garage. With the power, price, and features I wouldnt look for another amp for any situation personally! I'm pretty sold on mini class D from PPI at this point? (was not a fan of the kenwood, and original pdx....) Aside from the mounting feet I have ZERO complaints... Dials are easy to use, hook up with small screwdrivers was no prob, and I like how they include the adapter for larger gauge wire....I was fine running straight 8g from my block in this situation (could fit 4 in it easy though).



Glad to hear it 
With their size, I could hide one of these under a seat, or behind paneling in the hatch. One more question: Are the crossover dials notched so you can easily set them the same, or are they infinitely adjustable? Again, thanks for the quick response!


----------



## rexroadj

captainobvious said:


> Glad to hear it
> With their size, I could hide one of these under a seat, or behind paneling in the hatch. One more question: Are the crossover dials notched so you can easily set them the same, or are they infinitely adjustable? Again, thanks for the quick response!


Hmmmm......I didnt pay to much attention....I think they were notched a little....So you could get them pretty close? I will see if I can stuff my head under my seat later for a better look


----------



## trumpet

The Phantom crossover knobs are infinitely adjustable.


----------



## rexroadj

trumpet said:


> The Phantom crossover knobs are infinitely adjustable.


Thats not what he was asking I dont think? He was seeing if there were marks along the dial so that both sides can be evenly or better yet.....accurately matched


----------



## ousooner2

If I remember correctly, there wasn't any sort of notch while you're turning the dials. No tick marks either. Just have to do the math for yourself lol


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks guys, that's what I was looking for.


----------



## rexroadj

I took a picture but its not worth posting..... It is not marked well for setting.....Although you do have to start figuring price/what you get....Its still WAY in our favor  One thing you can do is since the dial is a phillips head style circle you can mark one of the edges and keep track of it that way? May not be perfect but it should help some....(does this make any sense at all???????)


----------



## captainobvious

rexroadj said:


> I took a picture but its not worth posting..... It is not marked well for setting.....Although you do have to start figuring price/what you get....Its still WAY in our favor  One thing you can do is since the dial is a phillips head style circle you can mark one of the edges and keep track of it that way? May not be perfect but it should help some....(does this make any sense at all???????)


Oh, for sure. I think I'd have to go active crossovers anyway as I'd never get them the same. 
I'm between the PPI amps and the JL xd600/6. A little less power with the JL, but 6 channels and more flexibility. Plus the jl's are on sale right now for about $350 which is pretty nice.


----------



## PPI_GUY

captainobvious said:


> Oh, for sure. I think I'd have to go active crossovers anyway as I'd never get them the same.
> I'm between the PPI amps and the JL xd600/6. A little less power with the JL, but 6 channels and more flexibility. Plus the jl's are on sale right now for about $350 which is pretty nice.


Where are the JL XD600/6's available at $350? That's a really good price!


----------



## captainobvious

PPI_GUY said:


> Where are the JL XD600/6's available at $350? That's a really good price!


Onlinecarstereo has them right now for $359

6 Channel System Amplifiers - Multi-Channel - Full Car System Amps at OnlineCarStereo.com - Brand | JL Audio

I ended up grabbing one from another seller for $300. Fits my needs and now I wont have to buy 2 amps......yet....


----------



## JAX

captainobvious said:


> Onlinecarstereo has them right now for $359
> 
> 6 Channel System Amplifiers - Multi-Channel - Full Car System Amps at OnlineCarStereo.com - Brand | JL Audio
> 
> I ended up grabbing one from another seller for $300. Fits my needs and now I wont have to buy 2 amps......yet....


Did you get it off eBay? Saw some for $300 used. 6 of them


----------



## 2wheelie

Al & Ed's is matching the $359 deal btw.


----------



## 07azhhr

For those that want to remove the end caps on the Phantoms there ARE 2 more screws that attach to the underside of the heatsink. Here is a pic. It is some what blurry so I circled the screws.


----------



## captainobvious

JAX said:


> Did you get it off eBay? Saw some for $300 used. 6 of them


Yup, eBay. Judgin by the tracking info, it should be at my house already


----------



## W8 a minute

PPI_GUY said:


> Where are the JL XD600/6's available at $350? That's a really good price!


I know this is OT but someone might like this. Looks like a good deal to me.

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices


----------



## rexroadj

W8 a minute said:


> I know this is OT but someone might like this. Looks like a good deal to me.
> 
> eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices


x2! Looks like a large amount of power in a tiny foot print!


----------



## JAX

I posted a link for clean xd600/6 in eBay deals section. 


That pdx does have the power though. Even though I didn't care for version 1 of the pdx.


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> I posted a link for clean xd600/6 in eBay deals section.
> 
> 
> That pdx does have the power though. Even though I didn't care for version 1 of the pdx.


I also was not a fan of the first pdx......These are on a whole new level IMO. Awesome amps! I would put them on par with the HD's from JL....


----------



## JAX

Really? I guess I need to take a look. 

Who builds the HD for jl ? Who builds the alpine? 

I am sure if I asked my tech he would say the alpine is Chinese junk. Don't know what he would say about the hd.


----------



## snaimpally

JetStar88 said:


> What's the story on Balanced Differential Inputs for the Black Ice series?
> 
> PPI's website says that a BLT (can't find much info on it) is necessary.
> 
> Pics and info on Sonic Electronix site says that they feature Balanced Signal Input, but there's no BLT connection. I'm specifically looking at the BK580.5 and BK340.4.
> 
> I'd prefer to avoid an additional component. JL's Slash amps and Kicker's ZX amps seem to have this ability. But I really like PPI's price points and specs.


Some of the Mosconi amps, like the AS200.2 and AS400.4 probably use the same boards or build house as the PPI amps. Mosconi mentions BLT for bridging and the specs are _very _similar to the PPI 900.4

Mosconi - AS100.4


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> Really? I guess I need to take a look.
> 
> Who builds the HD for jl ? Who builds the alpine?
> 
> I am sure if I asked my tech he would say the alpine is Chinese junk. Don't know what he would say about the hd.


Personally could care less! One of the biggest wastes of thought IMO! First of all.....as far as build quality the proof is already in the pudding! I know they have taken away any noise/"processed sound" issues. All thats left is small, powerful, and clean  Thats good enough for me! I could care less where its made. Its irrelevant! I wish it said USA on it, aside from that it makes ZERO difference! Anyone who thinks it does is a fool and has no understanding of the process! 


Sorry for the rant....I just cant believe that people still dont get this yet? Its ignorance at its fullest!


----------



## [email protected]

rexroadj said:


> Personally could care less! One of the biggest wastes of thought IMO! First of all.....as far as build quality the proof is already in the pudding! I know they have taken away any noise/"processed sound" issues. All thats left is small, powerful, and clean  Thats good enough for me! I could care less where its made. Its irrelevant! I wish it said USA on it, aside from that it makes ZERO difference! Anyone who thinks it does is a fool and has no understanding of the process!
> 
> 
> Sorry for the rant....I just cant believe that people still dont get this yet? Its ignorance at its fullest!


Ha, I had a long response typed up for his post, basically stating the same thing, but alittle more blunt. I decided to not post it, lol.


----------



## W8 a minute

rexroadj said:


> x2! Looks like a large amount of power in a tiny foot print!


Exactly. While it wouldn't be as much power it would save a lot of space compared to my PPI 900.4 and 1000.1. Having a single power connection and a single amp would be ideal in my Wrangler. I'm still debating on selling the PPI's but I'd be disappointed if I didn't at least listen to them once.


----------



## 07azhhr

snaimpally said:


> Some of the Mosconi amps, like the AS200.2 and AS400.4 probably use the same boards or build house as the PPI amps. Mosconi mentions BLT for bridging and the specs are _very _similar to the PPI 900.4
> 
> Mosconi - AS100.4


 
Perhaps the build house but I can not find any PPI amp that would be similar to any Mosconi that would suggest the use of the same boards. Also the AS amps are class A/B so they can not be the same as the 900.4. They do look like very very nice amps though. The power for size is also nice for class A/B amps.


----------



## rexroadj

W8 a minute said:


> Exactly. While it wouldn't be as much power it would save a lot of space compared to my PPI 900.4 and 1000.1. Having a single power connection and a single amp would be ideal in my Wrangler. I'm still debating on selling the PPI's but I'd be disappointed if I didn't at least listen to them once.


If you sell them please let me know!


----------



## pjf1fan

W8 a minute said:


> I know this is OT but someone might like this. Looks like a good deal to me.
> 
> eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices


My buddy took that listing to a local car audio store. The owner matched it, sales tax included. That's one he'll of a deal with local warranty and supporting the little shop. I'm sure he made a bit on it, knowing very well that good word of mouth will more than make up for the price cut.

We will hook up the pdx-v9 tomorrow replacing an MTX TD75.4 and TD500.1d. I'll be sure to post my experience with the Alpine pdx-v9, just reminder over the weekend.


----------



## omega48er

Man Justin u stay on top of your stuff. Btw how do I know if a Alpine pdx is v1 or v2. I searched but couldn't find Jack. I know the JL slash say v2. I was looking into a Alpine pdx m12 hopefully this summer I can have new equipment 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rexroadj

omega48er said:


> Man Justin u stay on top of your stuff. Btw how do I know if a Alpine pdx is v1 or v2. I searched but couldn't find Jack. I know the JL slash say v2. I was looking into a Alpine pdx m12 hopefully this summer I can have new equipment
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


Like an audio whore........you can say I get around  its a sad/sick disease!

The newer PDX's look different then the older ones....Off the top of my head I cant think of what the differences are but if your looking online just open up Alpines site and look at them while you look around! Also the names are different I believe?


----------



## JAX

rexroadj said:


> Personally could care less! One of the biggest wastes of thought IMO! First of all.....as far as build quality the proof is already in the pudding! I know they have taken away any noise/"processed sound" issues. All thats left is small, powerful, and clean  Thats good enough for me! I could care less where its made. Its irrelevant! I wish it said USA on it, aside from that it makes ZERO difference! Anyone who thinks it does is a fool and has no understanding of the process!
> 
> 
> Sorry for the rant....I just cant believe that people still dont get this yet? Its ignorance at its fullest!



I didnt quite explain.

He is does work for Alpine and Pioneer. He is involved in it. He is not just some repair guy. 

When I said "cheap chinese junk" thats in reference to something he said to me nearly every time we talked on the phone. 

you must realize that he has amps in his car that are in the thousands so compared to most of the stuff we run , his amps are unreal.

so if he tells me something is junk I dont take it just cause he said it I also know that he knows the internals of the stuff and how it is made and designed. he has worked directly with the manufacturers .

its not one of those cases where a old school person just hates new school out of nostalgia or something.


----------



## JAX

rexroadj said:


> Personally could care less! One of the biggest wastes of thought IMO! First of all.....as far as build quality the proof is already in the pudding! I know they have taken away any noise/"processed sound" issues. All thats left is small, powerful, and clean  Thats good enough for me! I could care less where its made. Its irrelevant! I wish it said USA on it, aside from that it makes ZERO difference! Anyone who thinks it does is a fool and has no understanding of the process!
> 
> 
> Sorry for the rant....I just cant believe that people still dont get this yet? Its ignorance at its fullest!



In other words, cause I missed this the first time.

He doesnt say it cause its not made in the USA. that has nothing to do with it. His own amps are not made in USA. that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I know I read somewhere that Korea was the better place to have amps made as far as regulations and QC. 

China might be getting better but in the past it was not the most favored place.

anyhow. its not about wether its made in the USA or not. He likes Zuki amps. Of course they are not made in USA either. HE knows how they are built and he is very familiar with them so he is not just liking them based on where they are made.


----------



## omega48er

Man I can't blame you. I'm still stuck on what car to get lol. I keep changing my mind.. but its funny I'm picking a car based on what audio gear I can fit in it. I was looking at the ppi amps. The review they got was amazing but the box looks cheap as Fukk. Guess I should apply for their marketing team 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> In other words, cause I missed this the first time.
> 
> He doesnt say it cause its not made in the USA. that has nothing to do with it. His own amps are not made in USA. that has absolutely nothing to do with it.
> 
> I know I read somewhere that Korea was the better place to have amps made as far as regulations and QC.
> 
> China might be getting better but in the past it was not the most favored place.
> 
> anyhow. its not about wether its made in the USA or not. He likes Zuki amps. Of course they are not made in USA either. HE knows how they are built and he is very familiar with them so he is not just liking them based on where they are made.





No I knew what you meant Mike! I was just trying to stop the usual BS that others tend to chime in with before it started! I know your repair guy too (he is the BEST!) and listened to the same stuff from him. I have had those very same amps before and can agree that there is a value for the high ticket amps. They are made to last forever and no stone is left unturned in its design and build.....no question! Its no different then buying a Lamborghini. Yeah its amazing in all aspects....in most cases its the best of the best.....BUT your not going to live in the projects with it (high end amp with garbage everything else). We are already the one percent of the audio industry......those amps go to the one percent of that one percent and like you said...they are built everywhere! 

People always get the China/Korea thing all kindsa screwed up! Here is how bad theorys have been made with china vs. anyone else. The build houses are as restricted as the company that uses them chooses! If they are poorly built its because the company in question that chose the build house didnt restrict anything within the house. Korea has stronger guidlines in there houses so even if the manufacturer doesnt "care" the house still does things a little better. (this gets more into labor sanctions more then anything else) 
The bottom line is that you can build the same exact amp the exact same way (if you choose) in any place! 

Bottom line is that build location means nothing! Its about whether or not the company cares to have it done a certain way. Parts can be imported/exported anywhere...... I personally dont think there is as much to that as people like to imagine anyway..... 
The other thing people hate to realize (again......not you!) is that different companys make certain lines for a market! Everyone thinks these Phantoms should be BRAX with a tiny package, and walmart $ tag! They are a sick value for the money. Are the best designed, best built with every possible feature under the sun? NO of course not! There also not $$$$$$$ Can you find a better bargain right now then the phantom? I cant! As it is I cant see paying for an HD vs the phantoms (no disrespect to the HDs, they are awesome.....but power to power/features/price?????)


Anyway, thats all I was saying


----------



## PPI_GUY

Wondering if some of the excitement is waning on the Phantoms? With all the availability issues and 5 channel delayed for what seems like forever, could be potential buyers are starting to look elsewhere. Maybe some retailers can tell us what they are hearing?


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> Wondering if some of the excitement is waning on the Phantoms? With all the availability issues and 5 channel delayed for what seems like forever, could be potential buyers are starting to look elsewhere. Maybe some retailers can tell us what they are hearing?


I would think this may be the case. Goes for the WHOLE SS version line up as well. 

Makes me actually be willing to pay the extra money for the Nachamichi, Arc Audio and Hertz versions.


----------



## pjf1fan

PPI_GUY said:


> Wondering if some of the excitement is waning on the Phantoms? With all the availability issues and 5 channel delayed for what seems like forever, could be potential buyers are starting to look elsewhere. Maybe some retailers can tell us what they are hearing?


I know my buddy missed out on the Phantom 900.4 and 600.2 because of availability issues. He was hoping for the 5-channel as well but settled on an Alpine PDX-V9.


----------



## alachua

My enthusiasm has certainly dropped. Also, Grizz not being around as much is a bit of a bummer, part of the 'value' to me was the high level of support the line had from him on the forum. It's all moot for me though, until I buy a new car to put the amps in, by then they may be back in stock or a new forum boner may have tented.


----------



## VietPho

After months of having my PPI P900.4 sitting in my office collecting dust, I've finally installed it a few days ago. I'm using it to power my Hybrid Audio Unity (front doors) and DLS MS6A (rears).

Pics:










Pics of my rear speakers. I haven't screwed down the speakers yet or even deadening anything lol.



















It sounds good so far on trance music, but I still have to do more testing with rap music.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> Wondering if some of the excitement is waning on the Phantoms? With all the availability issues and 5 channel delayed for what seems like forever, could be potential buyers are starting to look elsewhere. Maybe some retailers can tell us what they are hearing?


Not for me! Granted, I wish they had more in stock at this point because I am finally ready for them (typical) but I am very happy for there success! I have the P600.2 (couldnt be happier with it!) and my P1000.1 should be here Monday! My JBL C508GTI MKII will be here any minute so I will be anxious to see how they fair with the P600.2. I doubt it will be enough based on my running 500w to the 6" version for years! I would have bought the P900.4 had it been available to be certain of power. I am left with a situation now though.....
If the P600.2 is not enough, I can either sell it and get a 900.4 or if I have room, which I am certain I do not, get a second P600.2 and either go active or run one per side  I can see why people are losing hope/interest on the 5 channel. Its been a LONG time! I personally dont care because they are rarely enough power for anything I am doing? 
I feel the same way you guys do about the 5 channel towards the new head units! I was holding out hope for the fold out version to put in the jeep but I am not going to be able to wait forever. I want it done to enjoy, not anticipate. 
Bottom line is that you simply cant find a better deal on a new item then these for power, size, and features. They own it! They just need to catch up now


----------



## TrickyRicky

VietPho said:


> After months of having my PPI P900.4 sitting in my office collecting dust, I've finally installed it a few days ago. I'm using it to power my Hybrid Audio Unity (front doors) and DLS MS6A (rears).
> 
> Pics:
> It sounds good so far on trance music, but I still have to do more testing with rap music.


You got very nice car audio equipment but WHY put those nice comps in the rear??? Why not just add those to your front stage? Just my 2cents.


PS: Without baffles on those rear comps, they will suffer from the pressure the subs put out. Have you checked to see (with your fader all the way to the front) how much those rear comps move when you have no signal on them and have the subwoofers on. Just a thought.


----------



## rexroadj

TrickyRicky said:


> You got very nice car audio equipment but WHY put those nice comps in the rear??? Why not just add those to your front stage? Just my 2cents.
> 
> 
> PS: Without baffles on those rear comps, they will suffer from the pressure the subs put out. Have you checked to see (with your fader all the way to the front) how much those rear comps move when you have no signal on them and have the subwoofers on. Just a thought.


X2! Good food for thought!


----------



## [email protected]

Wont matter unless he puts his seats back in  Seats out and subs firing forward is not gonna move them enough to have any negative effects.


----------



## rexroadj

? I missed the seats being out? Excellent point!


----------



## Stoph

in the picture above there is no rear seat at all.


----------



## rexroadj

I just assumed that was during the build......not permanent? Thought it was just folded down?

The last picture looks like the seat is in? 

If its out? No problem! If its in? Problem! Its that simple


----------



## KillerBox

I just bought a PPI P1000.1 today on sale at Sonic Electronix. 

After thinking about it for a couple of hours, I was going to pull the trigger on a PPI P900.4 too. Sonic is sold out of the P900.4.

So does anyone know of place with P900.4 in stock for a cheap price?


----------



## envisionelec

rexroadj said:


> No I knew what you meant Mike! I was just trying to stop the usual BS that others tend to chime in with before it started! I know your repair guy too (he is the BEST!)
> 
> People always get the China/Korea thing all kindsa screwed up! Here is how bad theorys have been made with china vs. anyone else. The build houses are as restricted as the company that uses them chooses! If they are poorly built its because the company in question that chose the build house didnt restrict anything within the house. Korea has stronger guidlines in there houses so even if the manufacturer doesnt "care" the house still does things a little better. (this gets more into labor sanctions more then anything else)
> The bottom line is that you can build the same exact amp the exact same way (if you choose) in any place!
> 
> Bottom line is that build location means nothing! Its about whether or not the company cares to have it done a certain way. Parts can be imported/exported anywhere...... I personally dont think there is as much to that as people like to imagine anyway.....
> 
> Anyway, thats all I was saying



You speak as though you don't have experience with this.

Most companies don't track their supply chain well enough or don't have quality engineers looking out for them. Often the "build house" specs the BOM purchase. Do the parts meet specification? Maybe. Are substitutions made? Yes, they are. Sometimes the subs make no difference, but others can kill reliability. This happens in all industries - but absolutely more often in consumer electronics. I have firsthand experience with it in both the $5 and the $5000 assembly. The house decides to save 35 cents per assembly and ends up destroying the reputation of the customer. China seems to be the infamous leader in this practice because they believe they are doing the right thing. They behave like little children by thinking they're helping when they're just making a mess/breaking stuff...and then throw up their hands when you demand accountability.

If this were not true, the concern for Chinese manufacturing would wane over time as they produced better quality. But they have only improved their ability to deceive.


----------



## rexroadj

envisionelec said:


> You speak as though you don't have experience with this.
> 
> Most companies don't track their supply chain well enough or don't have quality engineers looking out for them. Often the "build house" specs the BOM purchase. Do the parts meet specification? Maybe. Are substitutions made? Yes, they are. Sometimes the subs make no difference, but others can kill reliability. This happens in all industries - but absolutely more often in consumer electronics. I have firsthand experience with it in both the $5 and the $5000 assembly. The house decides to save 35 cents per assembly and ends up destroying the reputation of the customer. China seems to be the infamous leader in this practice because they believe they are doing the right thing. They behave like little children by thinking they're helping when they're just making a mess/breaking stuff...and then throw up their hands when you demand accountability.
> 
> If this were not true, the concern for Chinese manufacturing would wane over time as they produced better quality. But they have only improved their ability to deceive.


LOL! Ok?

Yup, I have no clue what I am talking about here. Your right




Yes, thats sarcasm!
Actually I do have some experience with this! In fact it was with one of the larger company's on this planet and at one point got into some serious trouble because of there lack of overseeing the process! It was a very tough lesson learned that cost them a great deal and also cost them a **** TON in customer relations when the news was leaked out. It was more out of ignorance then anything, and it was a lesson learned and they moved on and now have strict guidelines for the shops they have do the work and check up on it all the time. Its not hard? It may add a little cost, but to say it cant be done because of region and that they are only good at deception is just about the dumbest thing I have heard. It makes you sound or prove that you have zero experience in the matter.......Since your clearly out for your usual pissing contest!


----------



## trumpet

KillerBox said:


> I just bought a PPI P1000.1 today on sale at Sonic Electronix.
> 
> After thinking about it for a couple of hours, I was going to pull the trigger on a PPI P900.4 too. Sonic is sold out of the P900.4.
> 
> So does anyone know of place with P900.4 in stock for a cheap price?


These are on national backorder. Maybe you might find one on eBay that's actually in stock, but make sure it's a legit source like Sonic Electronix.


----------



## 07azhhr

envisionelec 
rexroadj

Perhaps you two would be better having your own thread on that matter insted of in this PPI thread.


----------



## rexroadj

07azhhr said:


> envisionelec
> rexroadj
> 
> Perhaps you two would be better having your own thread on that matter insted of in this PPI thread.


I agree! But.....there was no need for the random and false alegation from Envisonelec......
My points on the topic originally to Jax had to do with the amps and the stigma that goes with "China vs. others" seeing as how the amps are made in China.

I have no interest in dragging this out either, especially here. I did however feel it necessar that I explained that I do in fact have some experience in this dept. and that there was a reason why I said what I did. The End.

FYI got my P1000.1 running my JBL P1022 in a ported enclosure running at 1ohm and its incredible! GREAT combo! I have a puny alt. and I am running the P1000.1 and P600.2 with great results and zero visible strain on my electrical system (Still going to upgrading the alt). This is amazing considering I ran 1 Kicker IX1000 and my elec. system couldnt support it at all! The P600.2 is running the new JBL C508GTI extremely well too! I think I will wait and get a P900.4 on them bridged when available though....... 
Love me some power 
You just cant get a better bang for your buck on the market right now! Wish they were available when I had my truck. I would/could run a dozen of these little things!!!!!


----------



## omega48er

^ eh i dont mind. this thread is long as it is. a few extra pages wont hurt. lol. 
^btw i think im finally set on a car . a 09 bmw 535xi. man a system is going to cost an arm and a leg!!!!! im debating between using the BK1800.1/RF T1500-1bdcp/ or the HD1200
everything is making me lean more towards the hd1200. but the price on the BK is crazy. ugh!!!!!!!!! i should buy both and then sell which ever i dont like.. but i need a car first. and trying to get my hands on 2 G5 subs. justin ill pm you if i end up getting the car. =]


----------



## KillerBox

I just received my P1000.1 today. The quality looks pretty good. I don't really like the phillips head screw for the adjustments though.

Now if I can find a P900.4 for sale soon, so I can install both of them at the same time!


----------



## TrickyRicky

KillerBox said:


> I just received my P1000.1 today. The quality looks pretty good. I don't really like the phillips head screw for the adjustments though.
> 
> Now if I can find a P900.4 for sale soon, so I can install both of them at the same time!


Post some gut pics.

Or are they available some where - too lazy too look, lol.


----------



## 07azhhr

TrickyRicky said:


> Post some gut pics.
> 
> Or are they available some where - too lazy too look, lol.


Are you wanting to see the guts of the 1000.1 specifically or just these amps? I have a gut shot of my 900.4 if you want to see it.


----------



## 07azhhr

Well here they are either way.


----------



## TrickyRicky

07azhhr said:


> Well here they are either way.


Sweet. Thanks.


----------



## Darth SQ

07azhhr said:


> envisionelec
> rexroadj
> 
> Perhaps you two would be better having your own thread on that matter insted of in this PPI thread.


Sorry, a little lateto the party. 

Wouldn't do any good.
This stupid argument has been going on for years on DIYMA in numerous threads.
Just ask Rexroadj.
That's why he bit back so hard because it's getting old.
They used to say the same things about Japan in the 70's and South Korea in the 80's.
China is just today's ***** and in the next five years, it will be Vietnam.


Somehow it always seems to find it's way into the discussion.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## TrickyRicky

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Sorry, a little lateto the party.
> 
> Wouldn't do any good.
> This stupid argument has been going on for years on DIYMA in numerous threads.
> Just ask Rexroadj.
> That's why he bit back so hard because it's getting old.
> They used to say the same things about Japan in the 70's and South Korea in the 80's.
> China is just today's ***** and in the next five years, it will be Vietnam.
> 
> 
> Somehow it always seems to find it's way into the discussion.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I personally wouldn't mind having Japan as our ***** again, lol. They always seem to make GREAT products. Heck just check at their motorcycles and compare them to Chinese made crap.


----------



## Malazan

I just got my P1000.1 going. It's running my IDQ 12 at 2 ohms


----------



## omega48er

Update. So.looks like I'm getting a clk 350. The guy with the BMW backed out. 
Kind of happy because sooooo much easier doing a system in the w209. 
I'm really hesitant in buying equipment. 
I have 2 amps that I pulled out of.my civic Nd I think the quality is amazing . Is the xd series a xd600/1 and 600/6 the quality is amazing .I'm planning on doing a bigger build in the Benz. Like a double woofer in the Doors tweeters a set in the back and a subwoofer. I'm trying to.get real loud while.maintain quality. Idk if I should Use ppi amps or the hd Amps. I will save a ton of money and do my build quicker. I hate having to pick equipment. I cam get a my ppi amps for.the price of.one hd1200 lol. Can any one stack a hd600 against a p900.4??? If someone has used both please let me.know.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## jamiebosco

Any news when these will be available again?

Sonic emailed me a few weeks back saying they're expecting stock on 18/05/12,I've been checking daily and their still marked as Out Of Stock on the website.
Are these available anywhere at the moment?

Jamie


----------



## jamiebosco

Has anyone tried these?

NVX Audio JAD800.4 Full Range Class D 4-Channel Car Amplifier

Look almost the same as the PPI's


----------



## rton20s

I can't confirm, but I'd say it is a pretty good possibility that the NVX is another one of the clones of the PPI/Soundstream/Polk/Hertz amps. Without seeing a guts shot, there is no way to know how the quality of internal components compare. One nice feature of the NVX is that while there are three fuses instead of two, they are all the same 25a fuse. 

Plus, they're in stock!


----------



## captainobvious

omega48er said:


> Update. So.looks like I'm getting a clk 350. The guy with the BMW backed out.
> Kind of happy because sooooo much easier doing a system in the w209.
> I'm really hesitant in buying equipment.
> I have 2 amps that I pulled out of.my civic Nd I think the quality is amazing . Is the xd series a xd600/1 and 600/6 the quality is amazing .I'm planning on doing a bigger build in the Benz. Like a double woofer in the Doors tweeters a set in the back and a subwoofer. I'm trying to.get real loud while.maintain quality. Idk if I should Use ppi amps or the hd Amps. I will save a ton of money and do my build quicker. I hate having to pick equipment. I cam get a my ppi amps for.the price of.one hd1200 lol. Can any one stack a hd600 against a p900.4??? If someone has used both please let me.know.
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


Do you really need the extra power? If not, I'd stick with the XD's (I also have a 600/6 and a 600/1 on the way) as they are quality amps and they have a smaller footprint.


----------



## Bkp02

Wanted Phantoms but could not wait anymore and went with ZED and Polk's but I think I 'll be ok ...


----------



## 07azhhr

jamiebosco said:


> Has anyone tried these?
> 
> NVX Audio JAD800.4 Full Range Class D 4-Channel Car Amplifier
> 
> Look almost the same as the PPI's


Dimensions and wattage and x-over panel and such all make this look to be another version. The body looks like the Hertz and Nakamichi versions minus the top mounted x-over on the Hertz. 

Trying to remember all of the amps that are using these same chips and board combos. 

Polk
PPI
Soundstream (are they being sold yet?)
Hertz
Nakamichi
NVX

Arc Audio - 3 or so that match up to the rest in size and such and probably use the same chip/board combo as the rest of the manu's but they have some others that are very differant wattages and lengths but they specify the use of these same chips.


I think I have read of another one that was before all of the others but I do not remember the companies name. 

I wonder how many more we will continue to see pop up. But I also wonder if because of there being sooooooo many companies using these chip/board combos if this is why we are seeing the shortages.


----------



## rton20s

I've not seen the Nakamichis. Do you have a link? 

Also, I don't believe any of the Arc products are related to this board/design. If I recall correctly, all of their stuff is Zeff/Nikola/U-Buy based.


----------



## 07azhhr

rton20s said:


> I've not seen the Nakamichis. Do you have a link?
> 
> Also, I don't believe any of the Arc products are related to this board/design. If I recall correctly, all of their stuff is Zeff/Nikola/U-Buy based.


The Arc XDi amps are their newest line. They boast about using the Philips full range class D chips in their product description.



> Phillips Technology chip based Class D technology
> 
> Chip based full range design produces minimal heat allowing for installations in low circulation environments


They have 2 that seem to be near enough to the dimensions and wattages that they are most likely using the same boards While they have several others with different wattages and lengths. The chips Arc is using are the same ones and possibly more from the same chipset family from Philips. I think that Arc has had some new boards designed (by whomever) to run these chips and get these alternate wattage/length amps.

This is obviously all speculation but based on the known info I feel pretty confident that seeing the boards of these two below would be just a confirmation of my speculation.

Arc XDi 805 :



> *Specs:*
> 
> 4 Channels @ 4 Ohms-80 Watts
> 4 Channels @ 2 ohms120 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms (Sub)120 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 2 Ohms (Sub)400 Watts
> 
> 
> 
> Dimensions : 11.25 x 6.5 x 2.25


vs PPI Phantom 900.5 :



> *Specs:*
> 
> 4 Channels @ 4 Ohms-70 Watts
> 4 Channels @ 2 ohms115 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 4 Ohms (Sub)230 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 2 Ohms (Sub)440 Watts
> 
> 
> 
> Dimensions : 11.5 x 6.5 x 2


The 6.5" - 6.75" dimension seems to be a constant for all of the amps using these boards and the Arcs hold to this for this line. 

Arc XDi 1000.1 : 



> 1 Channels @ 4 Ohms-400 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 2 ohms700 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 1 Ohms1150 Watts
> 
> 
> 
> DImensions : 11.25 x 6.5 x 2.25


vs PPI 1000.1



> 1 Channels @ 4 Ohms-580 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 2 ohms725 Watts
> 1 Channel @ 1 Ohms1000 Watts
> 
> 
> 
> DImensions : 11.5 x 6.5 x 2


Arc Audio XDI 1000.1

Here is the Nakamichi's. I can only find them for sale on ebay from a Hong Kong seller.










Nakamichi Car Amplifier PA-D1000B 1 Chanel Class-D Power Mono 1Ch Amp New | eBay


----------



## ousooner2

That NVX is damn near IDENTICAL to the Polk d4000.4


----------



## 07azhhr

Another member on here has had the opertunity to see a PPI 1000.1 and and Arc XDi 1000.1 side by side and he states that the boards are different. So it looks like my guess was wrong and we can scratch them off the list. 

This is actually good, IMHO, since it means that these Philips chips are making their way in to multiple board designs so WE get more options.


----------



## its_bacon12

omega48er said:


> Can any one stack a hd600 against a p900.4??? If someone has used both please let me.know.


I haven't had both but I'd imagine that performance is probably very near identical.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I picked up a couple of now discontinued MB Quart Reference Series amps the other day. Got a 4.80 and an 800.1. The four channel is class a/b and the mono amp is class d. Both are new and I only have a couple hundred in them. These are pretty small amps too. Footprint is close to that of the PPI Phantoms. They sound excellent and don't seem to be overly power hungry. Actually better looking than the PPI's in my opinion.
I may end up with the Phantoms when the availability issues get sorted out but, these little Quarts are doing good work at the moment.


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> I may end up with the Phantoms when the availability issues get sorted out but, these little Quarts are doing good work at the moment.


Maybe we should get a bunch of us together and just have these made with the looks we all want lol :











Not sure how much they are but I do see that the minimum order is 300 units so we will need a lot of us.

Car amplifier products, buy Car amplifier products from alibaba.com


----------



## pjf1fan

PPI_GUY said:


> I picked up a couple of now discontinued MB Quart Reference Series amps the other day. Got a 4.80 and an 800.1....


Where were you able to find them for so cheap?


----------



## PPI_GUY

pjf1fan said:


> Where were you able to find them for so cheap?


Got the 4.80 as a unused display from a private seller and the 800.1 from seller/retailer Buy12Volt on Ebay for $125 shipped.
The 800.1 was available on VMInnovations at one time for $106.00 with free shipping including the "facebook" discount code. But, I waited too long to get one and now they are oos. 
As they are now discontinued, might be hard to find them new.


----------



## daveds50

sorry everyone for replying to old posts... but i was mentioned. 



rexroadj said:


> I know your repair guy too (he is the BEST!)


 thanks ! i try hard. 



rexroadj said:


> Bottom line is that build location means nothing!


 truth. however, while the country does not matter, the build house itself does. some have shady practices, and extremely bad quality control. and i am not talking about just China either... they exist everywhere. but China does seem to be the biggest offender. 



envisionelec said:


> Most companies don't track their supply chain well enough or don't have quality engineers looking out for them. Often the "build house" specs the BOM purchase. Do the parts meet specification? Maybe. Are substitutions made? Yes, they are. Sometimes the subs make no difference, but others can kill reliability. This happens in all industries - but absolutely more often in consumer electronics. I have firsthand experience with it in both the $5 and the $5000 assembly. The house decides to save 35 cents per assembly and ends up destroying the reputation of the customer. China seems to be the infamous leader in this practice because they believe they are doing the right thing. They behave like little children by thinking they're helping when they're just making a mess/breaking stuff...and then throw up their hands when you demand accountability.
> 
> If this were not true, the concern for Chinese manufacturing would wane over time as they produced better quality. But they have only improved their ability to deceive.


 again, major truth. 

i am currently dealing with a major problem with Chinese capacitors. not big ones in this particular case, but small electrolytic ones in a critical circuit. without knowing exactly what they paid for the caps in mass quantities, i guesstimate that they saved 20 cents per unit opposed to using quality caps. 

but the short term failure rate is through the roof... long term would likely be 100% failure rate within 2 years. 

not to worry guys, this is not a car audio product i am talking about... but it could easily be. 

that said, in a way i am glad for lousy leaky China capacitors... i have recently bought seven big LED TV's known to die quick for $230 total. the only thing wrong, is the caps die quick. it cost me $18 in high grade caps to fix them all, and now we have nice TV's in all the rooms for next to nothing that will last for a really long time. :thumbsup:

by the way, my post has nothing to do with PPI or the thread. back to your regular scheduled programming.


----------



## rexroadj

daveds50 said:


> truth. however, while the country does not matter, the build house itself does. some have shady practices, and extremely bad quality control. and i am not talking about just China either... they exist everywhere. but China does seem to be the biggest offender.


Electronics, Clothing, etc...... They do as much or as little as YOU (not YOU personally of course  allow! and your right.....same goes for any region....even here

I think the people that seem to go crazy about the badge on the product need to absorb this the most! The sooner people realize that trash can be and is made everywhere and quality can be made anywhere the sooner they can have more pleasure with whats available today on the market! Is everything going to be Brax? Of course not! but not everyone is going to pay $,$$$.$$ either. Does a $300.00 powerful amp = garbage because its made in china? Not in my book of experience  (still prefer the Brax though


Glad to see you on board! Thanks for taking good care of me in the past! Sick deal on the TV's too!!! Must be nice to be able to do things like that....I suppose we all have our niche's? Either way.....Kick ass for you!!!


----------



## JAX

daveds50 said:


> sorry everyone for replying to old posts... but i was mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> thanks ! i try hard.


Hey Its Dave! 

He does excellent work btw!


----------



## Darth SQ

Oh crap.
PPI has pulled all the info from their website for the long awaited Ingenix source units and there's zero mention of them anywhere else.

I wonder what that means..........
PrecisionPower - Source Units

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

Vaporware?


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Oh crap.
> PPI has pulled all the info from their website for the long awaited Ingenix source units and there's zero mention of them anywhere else.
> 
> I wonder what that means..........
> PrecisionPower - Source Units
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GRIZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ???????????????????????????????? 
We need some answers here!!!!!


----------



## omega48er

Oh no, Justin has been waiting for ever !!!!!!! Every time I talk headunit with him he brings that up !!

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## W8 a minute

How come every one of these amps has those stupid end caps on them? WTF?


----------



## bendow

Can anyone tell me if these SSL amps are the same? SOUND STORM | everything else is just noise

And has anyone got a chance to audition the NVX amps?


----------



## rton20s

Can't say for sure on the SSL, but it certainly doesn't appear to be the same amp at all. 

As far as the NVX amps go, there have been a couple posts on DIYMA regarding these amps. Seems like a bit of a mixed bag, so far.


----------



## [email protected]

bendow said:


> Can anyone tell me if these SSL amps are the same? SOUND STORM | everything else is just noise
> 
> And has anyone got a chance to audition the NVX amps?


I am gonna say no, those are not the same. The terminals are not on the right side. The dimensions are different.


----------



## zql8tr

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Oh crap.
> PPI has pulled all the info from their website for the long awaited Ingenix source units and there's zero mention of them anywhere else.
> 
> I wonder what that means..........
> PrecisionPower - Source Units
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


We have had a few issues with software that we are addressing before the final release. We pulled them from the website because we unfortunately do not have a time frame as to when it will be resolved.


----------



## Darth SQ

zql8tr said:


> We have had a few issues with software that we are addressing before the final release. We pulled them from the website because we unfortunately do not have a time frame as to when it will be resolved.


Sorry to here that gaming software is still giving you fits.
Good thing I'm an ass dragin' tired ol' dog and not ready for one yet. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

BeatsDownLow said:


> I am gonna say no, those are not the same. The terminals are not on the right side. The dimensions are different.


You're damn right they are not the same! Soundstorm? Really? Maybe somebody from Epsilon can tell you the differences...


----------



## Grizz Archer

W8 a minute said:


> How come every one of these amps has those stupid end caps on them? WTF?


Duuuuuude! I know, right? I tried to tell them but they would not listen to me. Nice amps, but I would never use ends caps. It'll be interesting to see what future offerings look like...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> GRIZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ????????????????????????????????
> We need some answers here!!!!!


I may be preparing for a seminar tour through Russia and India for Epsilon as an independent contractor, but I think it would out of place for me to answer questions regarding the company as it is not longer my place to do so. You can try Ryan or Scott... But hey, you got my number.


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> Hey Its Dave!
> 
> He does excellent work btw!


Unrelated - QUEENSRYCHE RULES!!!


----------



## Grizz Archer

07azhhr said:


> The Arc XDi amps are their newest line. They boast about using the Philips full range class D chips in their product description.
> 
> 
> 
> They have 2 that seem to be near enough to the dimensions and wattages that they are most likely using the same boards While they have several others with different wattages and lengths. The chips Arc is using are the same ones and possibly more from the same chipset family from Philips. I think that Arc has had some new boards designed (by whomever) to run these chips and get these alternate wattage/length amps.
> 
> This is obviously all speculation but based on the known info I feel pretty confident that seeing the boards of these two below would be just a confirmation of my speculation.
> 
> Arc XDi 805 :
> 
> 
> 
> vs PPI Phantom 900.5 :
> 
> 
> 
> The 6.5" - 6.75" dimension seems to be a constant for all of the amps using these boards and the Arcs hold to this for this line.
> 
> Arc XDi 1000.1 :
> 
> 
> 
> vs PPI 1000.1
> 
> 
> 
> Arc Audio XDI 1000.1
> 
> Here is the Nakamichi's. I can only find them for sale on ebay from a Hong Kong seller.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nakamichi Car Amplifier PA-D1000B 1 Chanel Class-D Power Mono 1Ch Amp New | eBay


I think I freely mentioned this before... Nakamichi had these boards first, but they were unavailable in the USA. Then PPI got them. And Polk. And Hertz, but Hertz used a daughter board to top mount the controls - very cool. I love top mounted controls - always more convenient unless stacking amps which is not common...


----------



## rton20s

Just want to thanks for coming in here and continuing to comment (and maybe provide a bit more insight into these amps and Epsilon), Grizz.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rton20s said:


> Just want to thanks for coming in here and continuing to comment (and maybe provide a bit more insight into these amps and Epsilon), Grizz.


Your always welcome. I do not want to step on any toes, but when things are not getting answered, anybody is welcome to pm me and I will always divulge my unbiased opinion. I know that many manufacturers do not see the value of spending time on the forums, but I have sine RAC started. (Maybe that is the difference between a true life-long enthusiast and somebody with "just a job" in the industry. I don't know what I want to know, but everybody has something to learn and something to teach...) Although I will admit that DIYMA is the only one I spend time on. I NEVER waste time on the other forums for obvious reasons...


----------



## JAX

Grizz Archer said:


> Unrelated - QUEENSRYCHE RULES!!!



lol, you mean USED TO. They fired Tate in June as they were tired of his lame cd's.


Good to see you in here btw


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> lol, you mean USED TO. They fired Tate in June as they were tired of his lame cd's.
> 
> 
> Good to see you in here btw


They were weird after the second album, and just got weirder. To mellow and drifting from their roots... Tate has an awesome voice though...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> They were weird after the second album, and just got weirder. To mellow and drifting from their roots... Tate has an awesome voice though...


Queensryche 

All the awesome and ownership worthy:

1-S/T
2-Rage for Order
3-The Warning
4-Operation Mindcrime
5-Operation Livecrime
6-Empire

Contributing band in a movie soundtrack:

7-Adventrure's of Ford Fairlane
8-Point Break

Everything after that was absolute ****.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Queensryche
> 
> All the awesome and ownership worthy:
> 
> 1-S/T
> 2-Rage for Order
> 3-The Warning
> 4-Operation Mindcrime
> 5-Operation Livecrime
> 6-Empire
> 
> Contributing band in a movie soundtrack:
> 
> 7-Adventrure's of Ford Fairlane
> 8-Point Break
> 
> Everything after that was absolute ****.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


The beginning of their changing was okay but Final Frontier and Q2K were pretty gross, with only a couple good songs...


----------



## Wy2quiet

My p900.4 lasted 6 months and half of the 4 channels are dead fwiw. Not surprised they aren't being made anymore.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Wy2quiet said:


> My p900.4 lasted 6 months and half of the 4 channels are dead fwiw. Not surprised they aren't being made anymore.


Maybe somebody from Epsilon will reply to this, but I can tell you that they are going to be bade again, but there is a parts shortage. BTW, I'm pretty sure they have the lowest failure rate of all he Epsilon amps. Call them and tell them what happened. If I was still working there, I would be very curious as to what could have gone wrong. I have used them, sold them for SPL applications, and one of the SQ team members is doing very well with them...


----------



## mrcllusb

I'm just trying to wait patiently for the 900.4's them to be released again in the market so that i can grab one up brand new.


----------



## JAX

Grizz Archer said:


> They were weird after the second album, and just got weirder. To mellow and drifting from their roots... Tate has an awesome voice though...



If you actually listen to the Mindcrime albumn its pretty cool. all the songs are related and all tell a story. I am actually sorry I never saw them live when they were touring for that albumn. 

but yea, I think everyone who like them thinks the same thing ..after Empire they were stinking up the place with the lameness . I like like 2 songs from them after that until I finally quit giving them time of day. 

Tate was an amazing singer back in 1986 but I think he has lost it.


Did anyone buy any of his wine he made? I forget what it was called but my buddy told me he had his own wine. I couldnt find it local.


------------------------------------\\

For a price I'd do about anything
Except pull the trigger
For that I'd need a pretty good cause
Then I heard of Dr. X
The man with the cure
Just watch the television
Yeah, you'll see there's something going on

Got no love for politicians
Or that crazy scene in D.C.
It's just a power mad town
But the time is ripe for changes
There's a growing feeling
That taking a chance on a new kind of vision is due

I used to trust the media
To tell me the truth, tell us the truth
But now I've seen the payoffs
Everywhere I look
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
[There's a] Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

I'm tired of all this ********
They keep selling me on T.V.
About the communist plan
And all the shady preachers
Begging for my cash
Swiss bank accounts while giving their
Secretaries the slam

They're all in Penthouse now
Or Playboy magazine, million dollar stories to tell
I guess Warhol wasn't wrong
Fame fifteen minutes long
Everyone's using everybody, making the sale

I used to think
That only America's way, way was right
But now the holy dollar rules everybody's lives
Gotta make a million doesn't matter who dies

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
[There's a] Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through

I used to trust the media
To tell me the truth, tell us the truth
But now I've seen the payoffs
Everywhere I look
Who do you trust when everyone's a crook?

Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Revolution calling you
[There's a] Revolution calling
Revolution calling
Gotta make a change
Gotta push, gotta push it on through


----------



## Mindcrime

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Queensryche
> 
> All the awesome and ownership worthy:
> 
> 1-S/T
> 2-Rage for Order
> 3-The Warning
> 4-Operation Mindcrime
> 5-Operation Livecrime
> 6-Empire
> 
> Contributing band in a movie soundtrack:
> 
> 7-Adventrure's of Ford Fairlane
> 8-Point Break
> 
> Everything after that was absolute ****.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Don't forget Promised Land, you may not have liked it in your 20's.... But I promise you will like it now.


----------



## zql8tr

I can *CONFIRM *that the Phantom and Tarantula Nano amps are on the water!!! They should be shipping the first week of September. The 5 channels for both _finally _passed inspection and should be arriving before the end of the year... I know it's a bit late, but at least we will have them.


----------



## 07azhhr

zql8tr said:


> I can *CONFIRM *that the Phantom and Tarantula Nano amps are on the water!!! They should be shipping the first week of September. The 5 channels for both _finally _passed inspection and should be arriving before the end of the year... I know it's a bit late, but at least we will have them.




Now to decide on sticking with the Phantoms or switching to theTN's. I like the look of the TN's personally. Performance wise my 900.4 has been great so I do not expect any different with the TN's.


----------



## rton20s

I think the TNs have a nicer look and shape overall, except for that horrible glowing spider logo. I know image isn't everything, but if Soundstream is still trying to re-invent themselves as a credible brand, dumping the spider stuff is the first thing you ought to do.


----------



## 07azhhr

I have to agree fully. Besides these new TN's, I will not run any SS products with the spider logo.


----------



## rton20s

I know Grizz has talked about this in the past (I'm aware he is no longer with Epsilon, but he was when he made the statement). I know it may sound "racist," but I believe his justification was something along the lines of, "The Mexicans just eat it up!" 

Maybe they have done the marketing research? I don't know. I would tend to think that any car audio equipment with street prices like the spider labeled products are going to sell well. I actually think they would have a broader market with clean, simple designs with solid internals to back it up. That is what would capture a buyer like me. The TNs are 90% there, except for that stupid logo. I'd actually pay the difference for the NVS or Polk version of the amp to get a cleaner design (not a huge fan of the PPI version either). The only other current SS product line I would consider owning is the Reference amps.


----------



## JAX

So what is different about the Tn nano vs the phantom ? 

Has there been any improvements / changes in original phantoms or new SS versions ? 

I know it's been a while during release times.


----------



## rton20s

I'd be interested as well. 

I have a feeling though that the Phantoms and Tarantula Nanos are probably identical except for the heat sinks.


----------



## zql8tr

They are identical internal boards. Just different heat-sinks.


----------



## JAX

zql8tr said:


> They are identical internal boards. Just different heat-sinks.


so no difference in them at all? just cosmetic? ok then. are they same price too?


----------



## subwoofery

JAX said:


> so no difference in them at all? just cosmetic? ok then. are they same price too?


x2 - Is the heatsink more cooling efficient then? I know they are class D but some class D amp do run hot... 

Kelvin


----------



## zql8tr

I cannot provide pricing, sorry. You will need to contact your local dealer for that. But, they should be about the same.


----------



## rton20s

Unless something has changed, both Soundstream and Precision Power have a single authorized online reseller each. Online Car Stereo for Soundstream and Sonic Electronix for Precision Power. 

Below is their current pricing for comparison:

Mono:
SS/PPI: $240
Soundstream TN1.1200D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
Precision Power P1000.1 (p10001) Monoblock Phantom Car Amplifier

2 Channel:
SS: $180
Soundstream TN2.600D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
PPI: $160
Precision Power P600.2 (p6002) 2-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier

4 Channel:
SS: $250
Soundstream TN4.900D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
PPI: $230
Precision Power P900.4 (p9004) 4-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier

5 Channel:
SS: $300
Soundstream TN5-950D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
PPI: N/A

Of course, all of this means nothing if the dealer doesn't have it in stock. And of course B&M store prices will vary.


----------



## 07azhhr

subwoofery said:


> x2 - Is the heatsink more cooling efficient then? I know they are class D but some class D amp do run hot...
> 
> Kelvin


It looks just like a squared off version and in white or silver, hard to tell in the various pics on the net. My 900.4 has been run for more then 3 hours straight at almost full tilt without heat issues. I should mention that it was over 110 on that day. Basically what I am trying to say is that my PPI doesnt get hot to the touch at all and I would not expect a TN to be any different in my setup.


----------



## 07azhhr

This may sound funny but I actually wish they made a 2 or 4 channel with 60-80 watts per channel. The 5 channel's sub channel is just a tad weaker then I would like to have but the lower other channels make an active system a bit easier. 

Right now it is looking like a TN 4.900 to run my tweets off the front channels and my midranges off the rear channels. Lucky for me they both have ratings of 120-125 watts. Then the 2.600 to my midbasses and either another 2.600 or a 1.1200 for my sub.


----------



## jpsandberg

07azhhr said:


> Right now it is looking like a TN 4.900 to run my tweets off the front channels and my midranges off the rear channels. Lucky for me they both have ratings of 120-125 watts. Then the 2.600 to my midbasses and either another 2.600 or a 1.1200 for my sub.


Why not get 2 of the 5 channels? Bridge the 4x channels off the first amp to your mids for 230x2 , use 2 channels of the second for tweets at 80x2 and then you have 2 spare channels for rear fill or something when needed. 
Then use each sub channel to drive 2 subs at 430X2 at 2 ohm. Or, if using just one sub and dual voice coil, you could run each sub channel to each coil for 430 per coil - would work great on a dual 2 ohm sub (or use a dual 4ohm single sub at 270x2 if 430watts is too much power at 2 ohm)


----------



## niceguy

I don't like the lighted logo either but specs are decent....It may be a small thing but I wish some of these online retailers would provide chassis dimensions along with the other specs...


----------



## Thumper26

I always go to the manufacturer site and download the manuals for specs like that. I wish everyone's was laid out like jl's site. Theirs is so easy to find all of that info.


----------



## 07azhhr

jpsandberg said:


> Why not get 2 of the 5 channels? Bridge the 4x channels off the first amp to your mids for 230x2 , use 2 channels of the second for tweets at 80x2 and then you have 2 spare channels for rear fill or something when needed.
> Then use each sub channel to drive 2 subs at 430X2 at 2 ohm. Or, if using just one sub and dual voice coil, you could run each sub channel to each coil for 430 per coil - would work great on a dual 2 ohm sub (or use a dual 4ohm single sub at 270x2 if 430watts is too much power at 2 ohm)


Unfortunately I will not be running 2 subs or a dvc sub so that option does not work for me. I could compromise and run my tweets and midranges on one set of amp channels but that will mean having to run passives between them and also an L-pad to level match them. The x-over part is the sucky part in this setup since I would have to probably pick a setpoint and live with it or keep buying new one to test out. Or the other compromise would be to run only 430watts to the sub. This setup could be the 5.900 and the 2.600 with the 2.600 running the midbasses and the 5 channel running the rest. One thing is for certain....the 2.600 comes in to play in each scenario so perhaps I will start with that one and use it and my 900.4 Phantom while I decide on the others. I just really want atleast rms on every speaker and a little extra won't hurt. 
Oh yeah there will not be rearfill.



niceguy said:


> I don't like the lighted logo either but specs are decent....It may be a small thing but I wish some of these online retailers would provide chassis dimensions along with the other specs...


Sonic provides the specs for the Phantoms and the SS's are the same size roughly. I do remember seeing sizes for the TN's somewhere before. Perhaps on SS's website.


----------



## mr.gone

Prices for SS are all now lower than quoted below. Current prices: Mono--$199. 2-channel--$149. 4-channel--$199. 5-channel --$249.

In other words, no need to wait for the PPIs to be in stock if you're cool with the big spider on top.

[/I]


rton20s said:


> Unless something has changed, both Soundstream and Precision Power have a single authorized online reseller each. Online Car Stereo for Soundstream and Sonic Electronix for Precision Power.
> 
> Below is their current pricing for comparison:
> 
> Mono:
> SS/PPI: $240
> Soundstream TN1.1200D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
> Precision Power P1000.1 (p10001) Monoblock Phantom Car Amplifier
> 
> 2 Channel:
> SS: $180
> Soundstream TN2.600D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
> PPI: $160
> Precision Power P600.2 (p6002) 2-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier
> 
> 4 Channel:
> SS: $250
> Soundstream TN4.900D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
> PPI: $230
> Precision Power P900.4 (p9004) 4-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier
> 
> 5 Channel:
> SS: $300
> Soundstream TN5-950D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com
> PPI: N/A
> 
> Of course, all of this means nothing if the dealer doesn't have it in stock. And of course B&M store prices will vary.


----------



## SaturnSL1

The Power Class is super sexy.


----------



## VietPho

Just an update on my PPI P900.4

I bought it during that sale around March for $170.00
A couple of weeks ago I think one of the speakers wire shorted out and then I heard a loud pop noise (like the ones I hear when I blow a transistor in my electronics classes). The amp went into protect mode with just the power and ground wires hooked up to it. The fuses on the amp didn't even blow. Aren't the fuses there to go out if something shorts? The amp was pretty nice in my opinion and never got hot on me...

But anyway, I'm sad that the amp died and sent it back to SonicElectronix for an RMA store credit refund that I will be getting in a couple of days (I'm pretty impressed with its great customer service and a bit surprise how lenient they are). 

Well, now I'm having to go back to my eD NiNe.2 amp to power my HA Unity's in the front doors but I don't have anything to power the rear DLS MS6A's. Should I get a different Power Precision amp and just pay the difference? What do you guys recommend?


----------



## The Reverend

mr.gone said:


> Prices for SS are all now lower than quoted below. Current prices: Mono--$199. 2-channel--$149. 4-channel--$199. 5-channel --$249.
> 
> In other words, no need to wait for the PPIs to be in stock if you're cool with the big spider on top.
> 
> [/I]


Damn, I think I'm going to pick up the SS 4 channel and 2 channel and see if I can figure out a way to do away with the spider...


----------



## niceguy

VietPho said:


> Just an update on my PPI P900.4
> 
> I bought it during that sale around March for $170.00
> A couple of weeks ago I think one of the speakers wire shorted out and then I heard a loud pop noise (like the ones I hear when I blow a transistor in my electronics classes). The amp went into protect mode with just the power and ground wires hooked up to it. The fuses on the amp didn't even blow. Aren't the fuses there to go out if something shorts? The amp was pretty nice in my opinion and never got hot on me...
> 
> But anyway, I'm sad that the amp died and sent it back to SonicElectronix for an RMA store credit refund that I will be getting in a couple of days (I'm pretty impressed with its great customer service and a bit surprise how lenient they are).
> 
> Well, now I'm having to go back to my eD NiNe.2 amp to power my HA Unity's in the front doors but I don't have anything to power the rear DLS MS6A's. Should I get a different Power Precision amp and just pay the difference? What do you guys recommend?


Same thing happened to one of my US Acoustics 2100 amps...i was messing with speaker phasing and it never worked again...


----------



## Wy2quiet

niceguy said:


> Same thing happened to one of my US Acoustics 2100 amps...i was messing with speaker phasing and it never worked again...


It may not be your fault.

I had the same pop happen on my PPI 900.4. It turns out the noise I heard moving around inside the case was some extra solder than came loose from the board and shorted something of importance to the chassis, thus blowing one of my 4 channels.


----------



## The Reverend

Wy2quiet said:


> It may not be your fault.
> 
> I had the same pop happen on my PPI 900.4. It turns out the noise I heard moving around inside the case was some extra solder than came loose from the board and shorted something of importance to the chassis, thus blowing one of my 4 channels.


I'd wager it got too hot and some of the solder started to drip. 

I just bought the Soundstage 900x4 and the 600x2 for my Peerless SLS8 and Aurasound Whisper 2" and plan to install within the next couple of months.

First order of business will be to open the amp up, disable the LEDs lighting up the spider and figure out how to get some paint on it. I'll look and see if there are any components that appear to need additional heat-sinking while the hood is off


----------



## Wy2quiet

The Reverend said:


> I'd wager it got too hot and some of the solder started to drip.
> 
> I just bought the Soundstage 900x4 and the 600x2 for my Peerless SLS8 and Aurasound Whisper 2" and plan to install within the next couple of months.
> 
> First order of business will be to open the amp up, disable the LEDs lighting up the spider and figure out how to get some paint on it. I'll look and see if there are any components that appear to need additional heat-sinking while the hood is off


From day one I heard something moving around inside of it, like a small pebble or something. I wasn't going to open it up to check.


----------



## 07azhhr

Wy2quiet said:


> From day one I heard something moving around inside of it, like a small pebble or something. I wasn't going to open it up to check.


 
You should have opened it up. There is no seal that voids the warranty if broken. Heck I pulled mine completely apart and even took off the end caps.


----------



## niceguy

Soooo....anyone ordered the SpideyAmp yet?? That logo is bogus but OCS has the 900.5 (80x4/270x1 @4ohms) for $239 which seems like a great deal.

I like the looks of the ole Alpine MRV 5ch which is even cheaper and the Arc 805 but the SS has decent xovers which is always handy if you swap to a girlie HU (jk)

EDIT: I like the Picasso nano better aesthetically but no 5ch it seems like the TN series? To cover that logo up, you could always get a small piece of gloss black vinyl and cover the plastic with the option to remove later. Or just mask off the amp and paint the logo piece w/gloss black. I hope that chassis is silver and not white!!

The latest stories of the Alpine V9 turn on pops and price the Kenwood have me looking toward the MRV, SS and Arc. The Polk PAD is a nice option too but a little too long to easily fit with the wiring under my front seat...

Jeremy


----------



## mr.gone

Girlie HU is right. Like that new one from JVC that lets you switch faceplate colors to match your mood -- pink, lavender, yellow, peach ... Has a big Facebook button so you can tell your friends which Dave Matthews song you're listening to at the moment.


----------



## niceguy

Actually I just realized that this was the PPI thread but I haven't seen any more info on the SS TNs....unfortunately, this will probably be the one I get if they're actually available...

Mr.Gone...do/did you have a Maxima at one point?? That name seems really familiar...


----------



## mr.gone

No, no Maxima here (although I really liked the early ones -- they would have been a nice car to own.) Did have a Z at one point.

Mr. Gone is just a reference to a track and album by Weather Report, one of my favorite groups. Saw them a couple of times. Sounded like a better handle than "Teen Town" or "I Sing the Body Electric."


----------



## Ø.P. - Soundrides DK

07azhhr said:


> Dimensions and wattage and x-over panel and such all make this look to be another version. The body looks like the Hertz and Nakamichi versions minus the top mounted x-over on the Hertz.
> 
> Trying to remember all of the amps that are using these same chips and board combos.
> 
> Polk
> PPI
> Soundstream (are they being sold yet?)
> Hertz
> Nakamichi
> NVX
> 
> Arc Audio - 3 or so that match up to the rest in size and such and probably use the same chip/board combo as the rest of the manu's but they have some others that are very differant wattages and lengths but they specify the use of these same chips.
> 
> 
> I think I have read of another one that was before all of the others but I do not remember the companies name.
> 
> I wonder how many more we will continue to see pop up. But I also wonder if because of there being sooooooo many companies using these chip/board combos if this is why we are seeing the shortages.


Seems like we can add yet another brand to the list:
Krüger & Matz


----------



## 07azhhr

Ø.P. - Soundrides DK said:


> Seems like we can add yet another brand to the list:
> Krüger & Matz


Yes we can. The heatsink alone suggests it but the board pics confirm it. 

I wish I could edit out the Arc ones since it has been proven to not use the same board.


Anyways here is a board pic of the 4ch K&M and my 900.4 board pic for comparison.


----------



## 07azhhr

mr.gone said:


> Girlie HU is right. Like that new one from JVC that lets you switch faceplate colors to match your mood -- pink, lavender, yellow, peach ... .


Uh oh - I guess I will stay away from the Pioneer DEH 80prs then since it too can change the colors.


----------



## Coppershot

Folks the PPI 900.5 phantom is now out on onlinecarstereo for $229.
This thread was started on 01-26-2011 and the 5 channel is finally on sale. So they took approximately 22 months to drop this amp. 

I am no longer interested in buying this amp due to the ridiculous long wait. 2013 is right around the corner and new gear is going to be coming out soon from other manufacturers.


----------



## DAT

Coppershot said:


> Folks the PPI 900.5 phantom is now out on onlinecarstereo for $229.
> This thread was started on 01-26-2011 and the 5 channel is finally on sale. So they took approximately 22 months to drop this amp.
> 
> I am no longer interested in buying this amp due to the ridiculous long wait. 2013 is right around the corner and new gear is going to be coming out soon from other manufacturers.



 , yeah we understand

whats new for 2013?


----------



## W8 a minute

Coppershot said:


> Folks the PPI 900.5 phantom is now out on onlinecarstereo for $229.
> This thread was started on 01-26-2011 and the 5 channel is finally on sale. So they took approximately 22 months to drop this amp.
> 
> I am no longer interested in buying this amp due to the ridiculous long wait. 2013 is right around the corner and new gear is going to be coming out soon from other manufacturers.


Is this some sort of passive-aggressive temper tantrum? The only thing new in 2013 will be other version of this same amp sold by different companies. Enjoy it while you can still get it for $229.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Wow. 22 months since I started this thread and the P900.5 is finally here.
Lets review what has happened over that time period. The P900.5 was announced and they were supposedly "on the boat". But, delivery was cancelled due to a heatsink issue discovered in the QC process. The Phantom series becomes the forum "boner" and for good reason. Alot in a small, affordable package. Sales apparently go thru the roof as PPI can't keep the mono and 4 channel versions stocked. Identical boards start showing up in various other brand's products (see list above). One of the main guys (Grizz Archer) responsible for getting this series to market is let go by Epsilon. And finally the P900.5 arrives on the scene. 
Talk about drama and intrigue!


----------



## niceguy

The Reverend said:


> I'd wager it got too hot and some of the solder started to drip.
> 
> I just bought the Soundstage 900x4 and the 600x2 for my Peerless SLS8 and Aurasound Whisper 2" and plan to install within the next couple of months.
> 
> First order of business will be to open the amp up, disable the LEDs lighting up the spider and figure out how to get some paint on it. I'll look and see if there are any components that appear to need additional heat-sinking while the hood is off


I was thinking some opaque vinyl to slap on...that way if you ever sell it, no permanent alterations (cosmetically)...for the price, I don't think it can be beat but can't bring myself to get it yet lol


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> Wow. 22 months since I started this thread and the P900.5 is finally here.
> Lets review what has happened over that time period. The P900.5 was announced and they were supposedly "on the boat". But, delivery was cancelled due to a heatsink issue discovered in the QC process. The Phantom series becomes the forum "boner" and for good reason. Alot in a small, affordable package. Sales apparently go thru the roof as PPI can't keep the mono and 4 channel versions stocked. Identical boards start showing up in various other brand's products (see list above). One of the main guys (Grizz Archer) responsible for getting this series to market is let go by Epsilon. And finally the P900.5 arrives on the scene.
> Talk about drama and intrigue!


Actually I think you are a bit off on the who used the board first. Nakamichi was the first to use the board as stated by Grizz earlier in the thread. And I saw the Polks around the exact same time the PPI's popped up. Hertz was right there too.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Possibly another company using the same boards? The nomenclature is alittle different on the multi-channel amps. You have to look at the specs to see true power output. 

CERWIN-VEGA UNLEASHES NEW MODEL STEALTH AMPLIFIERS | 12 Volt News

Cerwin-Vega STEALTH1200.1 (STEALTH1200.1) Monoblock STEALTH Car Amp

Cerwin-Vega STEALTH800.5 (STEALTH800.5) 5-Channel STEALTH Car Amp


----------



## trumpet

PPI_GUY said:


> Possibly another company using the same boards? The nomenclature is alittle different on the multi-channel amps. You have to look at the specs to see true power output.


Nah, Cerwin Vega is a sister company to Diamond Audio. They have plenty of smart people to design their own boards, plus those amps look nothing like the Phantom amps on the connections.


----------



## rexroadj

I would be willing to bet they are a little different as well....... (not because of cosmetics)
I do love the robust rca terminals.....WHY O' WHY do more companies not use them???? How much can they possibly cost? Is it not worth it? (sorry, pet peeve).

My other complaint would have to be the A-typical wimpy sub channel.......If they could get up to/a little over the 500w range I would be in heaven with 5 channel amps....especially with my up coming build. I dont need a ton of sub power but come on!!! 

Not sure why I went on a rant.....please excuse. I do like the looks of those CV's though! Thanks for posting it!


----------



## duro78

Agreed, that's why I've never had much use for 5ch amps. Less than stellar sub ch and usually a huge footprint 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## PPI_GUY

rexroadj said:


> I would be willing to bet they are a little different as well....... (not because of cosmetics)
> I do love the robust rca terminals.....WHY O' WHY do more companies not use them???? How much can they possibly cost? Is it not worth it? (sorry, pet peeve).
> 
> My other complaint would have to be the A-typical wimpy sub channel.......If they could get up to/a little over the 500w range I would be in heaven with 5 channel amps....especially with my up coming build. I dont need a ton of sub power but come on!!!
> 
> Not sure why I went on a rant.....please excuse. I do like the looks of those CV's though! Thanks for posting it!


Agree completely on the RCA terminals. Even new Orion HCCA (!) and XTR amps use them. Would seem to be a low cost add-on that would communicate a more "quality" product to the consumer. And if a cheap-azz company like DEI (and whoever owns Orion now) is willing to include them on their products, why not everyone else?
I just took a glance at the power ratings on the C-V amps and thought they looked familiar. No way to know for certain without having a peek inside. 
Carry on.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> Agree completely on the RCA terminals. Even new Orion HCCA (!) and XTR amps use them. Would seem to be a low cost add-on that would communicate a more "quality" product to the consumer. And if a cheap-azz company like DEI (and whoever owns Orion now) is willing to include them on their products, why not everyone else?
> I just took a glance at the power ratings on the C-V amps and thought they looked familiar. No way to know for certain without having a peek inside.
> Carry on.


true....a peek inside would help! And We ALL know how the manufacturing process works so the odds of things/parts being shared are always more likely then not! 

FWIW.......New Orion HCCA amps are absolutely phenomenal!!!!!! DEI got rid of a lot of companies (ppi etc) to focus solely on one good product. New orion amps are actually great! The XTR's are some of the best built/bang buck amps out there! Find someone that has used them and tell me the feedback you hear. 
The HCCA's are priced right, its just a hard bill to swallow for most due to the dragging through the mud Orion as a name has endured (most of it with reason). DEI did right by the new lineups...... If they werent so huge I would absolutely run them. I just physically cant make them work. Find me another 2 channel (similar price) that puts out as much clean and effortless power as the new HCCA's?
I know that few have seen, touched, heard the new ones.....its too bad. They really are nice (feel like steel bricks too!)

Sorry, just putting it out there since it was mentioned 

Pisses me off about the rca terminals with the PPI PC vs SS Ref amps too? Same level of quality (for the most part) and one has them and the other does not? I realize its probably because of cosmetics based on earlier models (make them look alike) but still.........Function over fashion in my book? 

I guess one good thing has come of all this....even if they are all the same amp (which they are not) we have a **** ton of choices offering similar specs, and prices but at least offer different cosmetics? Unless your just hell bent on the name on the shell?  WE gots us some good choices now folks 


Hmmm maybe I should look into the XTRs for my own setup? may fit the bill pretty darn good.....plus if its good for the goose??? (eat my own words)


----------



## TrickyRicky

The RCA's that are panel mount with the hex nut are a but more expensive. Think about it this way, 6 RCAs that are used by many would ruin about 4 bucks to use, if you go with hex nut panel mounts it would cost around 12 bucks if not more for the same purpose.


----------



## JAX

rexroadj said:


> true....a peek inside would help! And We ALL know how the manufacturing process works so the odds of things/parts being shared are always more likely then not!
> 
> FWIW.......New Orion HCCA amps are absolutely phenomenal!!!!!! DEI got rid of a lot of companies (ppi etc) to focus solely on one good product. New orion amps are actually great! The XTR's are some of the best built/bang buck amps out there! Find someone that has used them and tell me the feedback you hear.
> The HCCA's are priced right, its just a hard bill to swallow for most due to the dragging through the mud Orion as a name has endured (most of it with reason). DEI did right by the new lineups...... If they werent so huge I would absolutely run them. I just physically cant make them work. Find me another 2 channel (similar price) that puts out as much clean and effortless power as the new HCCA's?
> I know that few have seen, touched, heard the new ones.....its too bad. They really are nice (feel like steel bricks too!)
> 
> Sorry, just putting it out there since it was mentioned
> 
> Pisses me off about the rca terminals with the PPI PC vs SS Ref amps too? Same level of quality (for the most part) and one has them and the other does not? I realize its probably because of cosmetics based on earlier models (make them look alike) but still.........Function over fashion in my book?
> 
> I guess one good thing has come of all this....even if they are all the same amp (which they are not) we have a **** ton of choices offering similar specs, and prices but at least offer different cosmetics? Unless your just hell bent on the name on the shell?  WE gots us some good choices now folks
> 
> 
> Hmmm maybe I should look into the XTRs for my own setup? may fit the bill pretty darn good.....plus if its good for the goose??? (eat my own words)



I talked with someone on here I think who had a XTR cause I was about to try one. Until he told me his burnt up in no time. decided not to risk it.


----------



## JAX

Has anyone looked at a Power Acoustic version of the PPI Phantom? 

I had heard they were the same but the PA is much cheaper. I looked on ebay and you can pick up a PA quite a bit cheaper...

I am not going to say where but they know more than me so..I dont know.

it would be interesting to find out. I was looking at a 1000 watt class D PA amp to compare to the PPI 1200.1


----------



## trumpet

JAX said:


> Has anyone looked at a Power Acoustic version of the PPI Phantom?


Power Acoustik is under the umbrella of Epsilon Group, so it would have been in the thread title if it was the same lineage as the Phantom/Nano amps.


----------



## JAX

trumpet said:


> Power Acoustik is under the umbrella of Epsilon Group, so it would have been in the thread title if it was the same lineage as the Phantom/Nano amps.


I was just going off what someone who is in the business told me.


----------



## JAX

trumpet said:


> Power Acoustik is under the umbrella of Epsilon Group, so it would have been in the thread title if it was the same lineage as the Phantom/Nano amps.



none of the other amps in this thread were in the title of the thread either. not sure what you remark even meant.


----------



## trumpet

JAX said:


> none of the other amps in this thread were in the title of the thread either. not sure what you remark even meant.


My bad, I thought this thread was started by Grizz Archer when he was employed by PPI. That's why I assumed the thread would have initially included Power Acoustik amps.


----------



## rexroadj

JAX said:


> I talked with someone on here I think who had a XTR cause I was about to try one. Until he told me his burnt up in no time. decided not to risk it.


Find me a line where you cant hear about that? Between the amount of production (in the case of these....SO MANY produced because they are popular), grey market goods (you have no clue what your buying in most cases), and sheer potential for user error.........It can and does happen to any company. Its simple law of averages.....I'm not arguing in favor of the amps....just that it can and does happen to every line at some point for all the above reasons. I have not heard a single complaint about them though (that being the first) from people that I actually believe used them (some of the "reviews" out there....we both know they never touched the items and most of it is just slander......we see it here all the time!)


----------



## 07azhhr

JAX said:


> Has anyone looked at a Power Acoustic version of the PPI Phantom?
> 
> I had heard they were the same but the PA is much cheaper. I looked on ebay and you can pick up a PA quite a bit cheaper...
> 
> I am not going to say where but they know more than me so..I dont know.
> 
> it would be interesting to find out. I was looking at a 1000 watt class D PA amp to compare to the PPI 1200.1


 
Are you refering to this one? Power Acoustik GT1 1000D 1000W Monoblock Class D Gothic Power Car Amplifier Amp | eBay

If so I do not think that that one is using the same board as the Phantoms and Tarantula Nano's. I am not sure I even see any amps in their line up that even cme close to looking like they could be the same. If that is not the one you were refering to can you post a link?


----------



## duro78

07azhhr said:


> Are you refering to this one? Power Acoustik GT1 1000D 1000W Monoblock Class D Gothic Power Car Amplifier Amp | eBay
> 
> If so I do not think that that one is using the same board as the Phantoms and Tarantula Nano's. I am not sure I even see any amps in their line up that even cme close to looking like they could be the same. If that is not the one you were refering to can you post a link?


It would be nice if they did. Like you mentioned they really don't resemble one another plus at that price I really wouldn't expect too much.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## PPI_GUY

Just to clarify an important point, Orion is now owned by MD Audio Engineering. They are a Venezuelian company and also own Lanzar Pro & Vibe as well as Pyramid America. That doesn't sound so good to me. 
The buyout happened earlier this year and was mention on this site...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ngineerin-g-inc-acquires-orion-car-audio.html

and on the "CE Outlook" page...

MD Audio Engineering | ceoutlook.com

The MD Audio Corporate website is here:

MD Audio

p.s. I did a trademark search and found the name JESUS SANCHELIMA, ESQ mentioed in several records associated with Orion. His name was also mentioned in numerous other trademark filings for everything from gym equipment to caviar. Sounds like the brandname "Orion" may be in trouble.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> Just to clarify an important point, Orion is now owned by MD Audio Engineering. They are a Venezuelian company and also own Lanzar Pro & Vibe as well as Pyramid America. That doesn't sound so good to me.
> The buyout happened earlier this year and was mention on this site...
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ngineerin-g-inc-acquires-orion-car-audio.html
> 
> and on the "CE Outlook" page...
> 
> MD Audio Engineering | ceoutlook.com
> 
> The MD Audio Corporate website is here:
> 
> MD Audio


Doesnt bother me.....
So DEI may have invested more then they could/should or god knows what to produce a quality line and for whatever reason did or had to sell........Now, do you think MD bought it to make it worse? NO, of course not. Does it hit a market that they are not currently involved in based on the sister companies? YES. Assuming they have the budget how is this a bad thing? Why do people always assume people purchase a company to make them worse? How does that make any business sense at all? Is Orion's name "that good" as it is right now? No, so there goes that theory....... 

Not ranting at you...... I just see how this always goes, because few have an understanding/grasp on business.......its like when you toss a company name that people love or hate to a deal.....daily business practices suddenly cease to exist? Drives me ****ing crazy! How long did it go on with Epsilon and PPI/SS????? (has it completely ended?) Did they make the names better then they have been in the last 10+ yrs or not? Originals are not a valid discussion due to the obvious....... But they turned those names around given the economy and audio climate we are in today as a bulk (we here are less the 10% of the market).

Just saying....... Its bad train of thought to go by a corporate name to judge something......To say that they dont have the funds or ability to put out a quality piece is just not realistic.......Example being Epsilon.....didnt there pedigree look the exact same as MD prior to buying SS/PPI? Companies like MD and Epsilon have made tons of $ because of those "low quality" companies because thats the market.......Who do you think sells more and because of it has built some of the larger budgets? Think about it. If they choose to invest in something that could be of a little more quality then what they currently offer.........THey certainly can! 

Consider it devil's advocate........


----------



## PPI_GUY

I just suspect that the name Orion was grabbed up by a company hoping to further capitalize on the legacy built by other people. I mean this MD Audio already owns Lanzar and that banner has almost become a joke. 
Could they have big plans of returning Orion to a well respected position in the industry? Of course they could. But, the trend in car audio is and has been for quite sometime; cheaper, cheaper, cheaper...or as someone else on this board put it, the "race to zero".
I do know a local stereo shop recently dropped Orion after selling the brand for more than 15 years. The owner told me they couldn't get warranty work done and no return phone calls. Maybe that has been cleared up after the transition in ownership? 
It's really hard to be hopeful when we've seen this sort of thing happen over and over.


----------



## PPI_GUY

OK, back on topic. 
I visited the Power Acoustik website and found that they are in fact offering a line of class D compact amps called the Razor Series. They do look familiar...

Power Acoustik RZ1-2300D (rz12300d) Monoblock RAZOR Class D Car Amp

Power Acoustik RZ4-2000D (rz42000d) Monoblock RAZOR Class D Car Amp

...but, the fusing is low compared to the PPI Phantoms and the PA models seem to offer only "stripped down" features (crossover, etc). But, that's to be expected I suppose.
Thoughts? Opinions?


----------



## rton20s

If I'm not mistaken those Power Acoustik Razor amps are the same as the Soundstream Picasso Nanos. Not on the same level as the Phantoms and Tarantula Nanos. Just another cheap class D. I doubt you'll see a "sleeper" coming out of PA that is on be same level of the nicer Epsilon full range class Ds at a better price point.


----------



## JAX

I dont know the exact model or if its 100% true, I just know its possible and yes it may be made with lesser quality that the others then again it might be all marketing.

I dont work on them or know what makes a great amp vs a regular joe amp. 

I do know sometimes its a percieved value that may or may not be there. 

if someone bought one then we would know. 


The razor was the only one I saw that was similar in shape.


----------



## 07azhhr

The Phanotms and all it's siblings are roughly 6.75"-7" in width. The Razor is only 4.5" in width. It could not fit the Phantoms board inside it. Since companies are more then likely not going to make a chassis that is several inches larger then needed to fit the board, I do not think the larger ones are using the Phanotm board either. Then there is the AB versions of all the other models too.


----------



## atbear

As far as the Polk vs. the PPI vs. the SS...


Polk D5000.5: 4x70W @ 4ohms, 4x100W @ 2ohms

PPI P900.5: 4x70W @ 4ohms, 4x115W @ 2ohms 

SS TN5-950D: 4x85W @ 4ohms, 4x130W @ 2ohms


Do we think that these power rating are accurate, or is it more manufacturers' marketing / rating differently, but really they are producing around the same power?


----------



## PPI_GUY

I would say the Soundstream ratings are probably pretty close to actual. Every test I have seen done on the Phantoms shows above rated output.


----------



## Grizz Archer

atbear said:


> As far as the Polk vs. the PPI vs. the SS...
> 
> 
> Polk D5000.5: 4x70W @ 4ohms, 4x100W @ 2ohms
> 
> PPI P900.5: 4x70W @ 4ohms, 4x115W @ 2ohms
> 
> SS TN5-950D: 4x85W @ 4ohms, 4x130W @ 2ohms
> 
> 
> Do we think that these power rating are accurate, or is it more manufacturers' marketing / rating differently, but really they are producing around the same power?


Guys, guys, guys.... I covered tall of that a long time ago. It was no secret. The is the order that that board came into the marketplace...

Nakamichi
Precision Power/Polk (about same time, if I remember correctly)
Soundstream
And then Hertz (Well for the most part, but they did what I wanted to do - move the preamp control to the top with a daughter board. I love that!) 
And I think there is at least one more brand, but probably two, but I do not want to speak without knowing factually.

It is not different than the original XXX-6500 boards that were about 5-6 other brands as well...


----------



## atbear

Grizz, we appreciate the info. I was just asking specifically about the power ratings and if the rated power by the manufacturers was accurate, or if really all three made about the same power since they used a similar/same board... For example, does the SS really make 30W more than the Polk at 2ohms, or is it just that the Polk may be a bit underrated, while the SS is accurate, etc.


----------



## Grizz Archer

atbear said:


> Grizz, we appreciate the info. I was just asking specifically about the power ratings and if the rated power by the manufacturers was accurate, or if really all three made about the same power since they used a similar/same board... For example, does the SS really make 30W more than the Polk at 2ohms, or is it just that the Polk may be a bit underrated, while the SS is accurate, etc.


The fact is this... They are are are equal or very close. In many cases, the rating and model numbers are confirmed before the boards are ever finalized. The you have the ratings done at 4ohms, 14.4 volts, 1% THD CEA style. Others at 5% (whether they admit it or not), some in between, etc. But you may also get a company to buy the boards and advise the factory that they want 10% tolerance parts rather than 5% to make it less expensive. Man, there is so much crap to consider, it'll make you sick and confused. But in essence, they are all the same...


----------



## atbear

Thanks. Not sure if you want to do this, but if you had to rank the three I mentioned by build and output 1, 2, 3, how would you do it? Taking into account differing part tolerances, etc...


----------



## Grizz Archer

atbear said:


> Thanks. Not sure if you want to do this, but if you had to rank the three I mentioned by build and output 1, 2, 3, how would you do it? Taking into account differing part tolerances, etc...


I doubt you would see a difference in any of those three. Possibly some differences int he Herz amps, but cannot confirm...


----------



## 07azhhr

With the Polk going down to 1 ohm on the sub output and also going up to 500 iirc at that 1 phm load, I would think that Polk gave up some of the power supply from the full ranges to give it to the sub channel. It may be done differently then the power supply but they look to have changed some things up a tad. Though what Grizz mentioned about the THD rating may be all it actually is. 

As for others using this board I think it has been confirmed that the NVX are the same via gut pics. I think I made a post with my 900.4 gut pic along with someone elses gut pic of the NVX.


----------



## ZAKOH

atbear said:


> As far as the Polk vs. the PPI vs. the SS...
> 
> 
> Polk D5000.5: 4x70W @ 4ohms, 4x100W @ 2ohms
> 
> PPI P900.5: 4x70W @ 4ohms, 4x115W @ 2ohms
> 
> SS TN5-950D: 4x85W @ 4ohms, 4x130W @ 2ohms
> 
> 
> Do we think that these power rating are accurate, or is it more manufacturers' marketing / rating differently, but really they are producing around the same power?



They probably produce about the same power, specially since it was mentioned that PPI and SSI are the same amp inside. Polk may be using the same design, but different components. Anyways, according to THIS test it was determined that PPI D5000 full range channels produce 85,6/150watts at 4/2ohm with 14.4V. Good channel separation on full range channels. The subwoofer channel test was done with 12.5V in the tradition of this magazine, and it was 195/315watts of power at 4/2ohm. I assume with 14.4 battery, this would have been a quarter higher.

SNR on full range channels was only 77,5dBs (at full power), which seems kind of low, but still acceptable specially in budget gear. For comparison, they got over 100dB on Alpine MRX-V60 (right now sold for $200 on sonicelectronix, quite a deal IMO).


----------



## 07azhhr

ZAKOH said:


> They probably produce about the same power, specially since it was mentioned that PPI and SSI are the same amp inside. Polk may be using the same design, but different components. Anyways, according to THIS test it was determined that PPI D5000 full range channels produce 85,6/150watts at 4/2ohm with 14.4V. Good channel separation on full range channels. The subwoofer channel test was done with 12.5V in the tradition of this magazine, and it was 195/315watts of power at 4/2ohm. I assume with 14.4 battery, this would have been a quarter higher.
> 
> SNR on full range channels was only 77,5dBs (at full power), which seems kind of low, but still acceptable specially in budget gear. For comparison, they got over 100dB on Alpine MRX-V60 (right now sold for $200 on sonicelectronix, quite a deal IMO).


 
Just to clarify this you are refering to the POLK PA D5000.5 and not the PPI 900.5, correct?

I wonder whay they did not test it at 1 ohm?


----------



## ZAKOH

07azhhr said:


> Just to clarify this you are refering to the POLK PA D5000.5 and not the PPI 900.5, correct?
> 
> I wonder whay they did not test it at 1 ohm?


They test sub channels only at 2 and 4ohm, with 12.5voltage. That's the way they do it strangely. Considering the these amplifiers lived up to manufacturer's specs at 2 and 4ohms, I don't see why this polk amp will not deliver the rated power at 1ohm. Personally though, I wouldn't run the sub channel at 1ohm just to squeeze out extra 100-150watts of power, unless I already had a 2ohm DVC subwoofer.


----------



## JAX

07azhhr said:


> The Phanotms and all it's siblings are roughly 6.75"-7" in width. The Razor is only 4.5" in width. It could not fit the Phantoms board inside it. Since companies are more then likely not going to make a chassis that is several inches larger then needed to fit the board, I do not think the larger ones are using the Phanotm board either. Then there is the AB versions of all the other models too.



I was told by someone who knows because he had a PPI Phantom and a Power Acoustic amp in hand at same time. he looked at both boards and they were identical.

"the same board and the same internal parts" as he told me. and he knows exactly what he is looking at garanteed.

this was a 4 channel PowerAcoustic. exact model I dont know.

I may buy one sooner or later and take pics.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Heck, lets just ask Grizz!
Mr. Archer do the PA Razor's and the Phantoms share the same board or some variation thereof?


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> Heck, lets just ask Grizz!
> Mr. Archer do the PA Razor's and the Phantoms share the same board or some variation thereof?


 
Yes he would be one to ask but with the Razor's 4.5" width it can not physically fit the Phantom board in it.


Jax- I looked at PA's website and only see the Razor's as 100% class D amps. The rest of the lines seem to have a combo of a/b and d choices. This to me suggests that there are no matches but I am very curious which model your friend was refering too. 

There are more and more new sister amps popping up all the time. Then there are also the other board designs that only share this Philips class D full range chipset that are popping up too. Like the Arc XDI series for example. 

These Philips chips have opened up a big market for tiny amps. Yet for somereason I have now found myself going back to big class a/b amps lol. But only because of features. I do like my little 900.4 though and if I hadn't changed direction I would have switched over to the TN's for their looks.


----------



## JAX

07azhhr said:


> Yes he would be one to ask but with the Razor's 4.5" width it can not physically fit the Phantom board in it.
> 
> 
> Jax- I looked at PA's website and only see the Razor's as 100% class D amps. The rest of the lines seem to have a combo of a/b and d choices. This to me suggests that there are no matches but I am very curious which model your friend was refering too.
> 
> There are more and more new sister amps popping up all the time. Then there are also the other board designs that only share this Philips class D full range chipset that are popping up too. Like the Arc XDI series for example.
> 
> These Philips chips have opened up a big market for tiny amps. Yet for somereason I have now found myself going back to big class a/b amps lol. But only because of features. I do like my little 900.4 though and if I hadn't changed direction I would have switched over to the TN's for their looks.



I am not saying it was the "razor" ...so unless your trying to call someone a liar then forget that I said it was a razor...

the guy knows what he was looking at...he repairs them and is a engineer.

buy one and find out...beleive what you want. I tend to take the word of my tech


----------



## 07azhhr

JAX said:


> I am not saying it was the "razor" ...so unless your trying to call someone a liar then forget that I said it was a razor...
> 
> the guy knows what he was looking at...he repairs them and is a engineer.
> 
> buy one and find out...beleive what you want. I tend to take the word of my tech


Dude take a chill pill. I called no one a liar. 

I said I did not see any that SUGGEST to me that they would be the same BUT would like to know which model your friend was looking at so I could look it up. 

And for the Razor did you not see that i quoted PPI Guy on that part. When I mentioned the Razor when talking specifically to you I was just stating that they are the only class D only line I can see. It was just a reference.

Chill!


----------



## 07azhhr

Actually if you scroll up you will see that Grizz listed the amp companies that he knows are using this board less then 24 hours ago. This does not include Power Acoustic. But perhaps Epsilon decide to give Power Acoustic these boards since Grizz was stupidly laid off. I would still think Grizz would have connections to know the answer.



Grizz Archer said:


> Guys, guys, guys.... I covered tall of that a long time ago. It was no secret. The is the order that that board came into the marketplace...
> 
> Nakamichi
> Precision Power/Polk (about same time, if I remember correctly)
> Soundstream
> And then Hertz (Well for the most part, but they did what I wanted to do - move the preamp control to the top with a daughter board. I love that!)
> And I think there is at least one more brand, but probably two, but I do not want to speak without knowing factually.
> 
> It is not different than the original XXX-6500 boards that were about 5-6 other brands as well...


----------



## PPI_GUY

07azhhr said:


> Dude take a chill pill. I called no one a liar.
> 
> I said I did not see any that SUGGEST to me that they would be the same BUT would like to know which model your friend was looking at so I could look it up.
> 
> And for the Razor did you not see that i quoted PPI Guy on that part. When I mentioned the Razor when talking specifically to you I was just stating that they are the only class D only line I can see. It was just a reference.
> 
> Chill!


That's why I mentioned the Razor series. It doesn't appear that Power Acoustik offers any full-range class D amps beyone the Razors. Nobody is calling anyone a liar. We are simply seeking information.
I honestly don't know what the answer is here. That's why I suggested we ask Grizz Archer to enlighten us. He was deeply involved in bringing the boards with Phillips chipsets to PPI and SS.


----------



## rton20s

I'll put money on NO WAY. And as I think I've already mentioned in this thread, I would be SHOCKED if the PA Razors and SS Picaso Nanos aren't using the same boards. The Phantom/Tarantula, etc. are a whole different level of amp, and already relatively inexpensive.


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> That's why I mentioned the Razor series. It doesn't appear that Power Acoustik offers any full-range class D amps beyone the Razors. Nobody is calling anyone a liar. We are simply seeking information.
> I honestly don't know what the answer is here. That's why I suggested we ask Grizz Archer to enlighten us. He was deeply involved in bringing the boards with Phillips chipsets to PPI and SS.


 I am guessing by his statement 16 or so hours ago addressing the board liniage that he either is not aware of any PA's or there are not any PA's using this board. 



rton20s said:


> I'll put money on NO WAY. And as I think I've already mentioned in this thread, I would be SHOCKED if the PA Razors and SS Picaso Nanos aren't using the same boards. The Phantom/Tarantula, etc. are a whole different level of amp, and already relatively inexpensive.


This is what I am thinking too. Of coarse without and proof though it is just guessing based on the info that is avail.


----------



## Grizz Archer

07azhhr said:


> Yes he would be one to ask but with the Razor's 4.5" width it can not physically fit the Phantom board in it.
> 
> 
> Jax- I looked at PA's website and only see the Razor's as 100% class D amps. The rest of the lines seem to have a combo of a/b and d choices. This to me suggests that there are no matches but I am very curious which model your friend was refering too.
> 
> There are more and more new sister amps popping up all the time. Then there are also the other board designs that only share this Philips class D full range chipset that are popping up too. Like the Arc XDI series for example.
> 
> These Philips chips have opened up a big market for tiny amps. Yet for somereason I have now found myself going back to big class a/b amps lol. But only because of features. I do like my little 900.4 though and if I hadn't changed direction I would have switched over to the TN's for their looks.


Exactly! The Razors are like the Nano Minis. Radically different amplifier.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Out of curiosity, is there any representation from Epsilon on here anymore? Hopefully there is for everybody. I do not go onto any of "their" threads anymore because it is not my place to respond on their behalf. But if they cannot and will not be part of this community, then I will be happy to help. I do not want you guys left hanging...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Out of curiosity, is there any representation from Epsilon on here anymore? Hopefully there is for everybody. I do not go onto any of "their" threads anymore because it is not my place to respond on their behalf. But if they cannot and will not be part of this community, then I will be happy to help. I do not want you guys left hanging...


Thanks for the Razor/Nano information.
I think someone from Epsilon posted here for a short while but, haven't seen anything from him lately. However, I don't open every PPI/SS thread I see.
Honestly, since they showed you the door, I've been alittle reluctant to heavily invest in their products.
Full disclosure; i did purchase a set of the A2.65C components at a very good price.


----------



## Grizz Archer

So are you taking over technical support and representation? ;^)


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> So are you taking over technical support and representation? ;^)


LOL! My knowledge of the new stuff might fill a thimble. :laugh:


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> Thanks for the Razor/Nano information.
> I think someone from Epsilon posted here for a short while but, haven't seen anything from him lately. However, I don't open every PPI/SS thread I see.
> Honestly, since they showed you the door, I've been alittle reluctant to heavily invest in their products.
> Full disclosure; i did purchase a set of the A2.65C components at a very good price.


X2!!


----------



## Grizz Archer

I have a hilarious comment to make to both PPI GUY and REXROADJ, in favor of you both, but I will bite, my tongue and keep my mouth shut which is not easy when the door to bitter sarcasm opened and rolled out the red carpet for me...

But I have a feeling REXROADJ will open his big mouth and say exactly what I really would enjoy saying. It is like we share a brain. Scary, but true... lol


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> X2!!


PPI GUY and REXROADJ... Guys, you both know I love you both. Both way cool cats. Just because I am gone, that does not mean that I did not put my heart and soul into that company, and I believe in all the products that "have my name on them". I would not want you to lose your desire for a brand on the basis of what happened with me and Epsilon. Just trying to take the high road here, even though I do not need to anymore. I am honored by any bitterness that you may have, but it is not necessary, really. Man, you have no idea how hard it is to write this and not go off! lol

Anyway, before I divulge too much, that is all I am saying for now...

Oh wait, one more thing... GO TEAM JBL GERMANY!!!


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> Full disclosure; i did purchase a set of the A2.65C components at a very good price.


Great set.
Team PPI did very well using them.

http://www.precisionpower.com/html-version/team.html

Grizz has a great competition story from this season regarding them.
Maybe he'll post it here. 



I still have to find one more set of the A3.65Cs. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR[/QUOTE]


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Great set.
> Team PPI did very well using them.
> 
> PrecisionPower - Team
> 
> Grizz has a great competition story from this season regarding them.
> Maybe he'll post it here.
> 
> 
> 
> I still have to find one more set of the A3.65Cs.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


[/QUOTE]

From that link, Ed and Surina Rice (married) are the only active SQ competitors, and I love them dearly. Chad's Solstice was in an accident and his new car is coming along nicely.

Which story are you referring to? Do you mean the A2.65C or PC3.65C. Kind of blended them together, unless their engineer has new products I do not know about. Ouch, that was uncalled for. Satisfying, but sorry... NOT! lol


----------



## Darth SQ

The one where someone won bigtime competing with a set of 3.65Cs even though they were out of phase or a tweeter was not hooked up. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> The one where someone won bigtime competing with a set of 3.65Cs even though they were out of phase or a tweeter was not hooked up.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Keeping it anonymous... A premium competitor built a vehicle. Actually he had a several-time world champion build his vehicle. Time ran short. He had about 20 minutes to tune after coming off the trailer at SBN, before they judged it. He took 3 trophies if I remember correctly, no less. Turns out, after he took it apart after the show, one of the 2.5" mids was not even hooked up! But wait, it gets better... The 8" sealed subs behind the seats, and the 6.5" midbass in the doors were backwards on the processor, So the subs behind the seat were playing midbass and the midbass int he doors were trying to be subs! I never get tired of telling that story because nobody believes this is possible. If nothing else, this is a true testament to the JBL MS-8.

I KNEW it did not sound right, but I trust this guys ears alot more than mine. My freaking Jeep sounded WAY BETTER! But he did well with it, all tings considered. Oh, and I forgot to mention, IT WAS A 2-SEATER CONVERTIBLE!!! I was sold and got one within two months and will never build another vehicle of my own without one... In fact, my experience since then is what made me scoop up a full ride from JBL for my BMW build...


----------



## 9050lx

Anybody know if Woofers etc is authorized dealer for PPI?They are selling the 900.4 for 249.00.site states all their products a warranteed for 7 months.


----------



## Grizz Archer

9050lx said:


> Anybody know if Woofers etc is authorized dealer for PPI?They are selling the 900.4 for 249.00.site states all their products a warranteed for 7 months.


Believe it or not they are authorized. Everybody hates that fact that he is an industry destroying whore, but the owner is a friend of the owner... Used to make me sick and pissed off, but now all I can do is laugh...


----------



## 9050lx

Is the SS TN4.900D the exact same amp?I may substitute for the SS but the PPI looks much nicer I think.


----------



## 07azhhr

Grizz Archer said:


> Anyway, before I divulge too much, that is all I am saying for now...
> 
> Oh wait, one more thing... GO TEAM JBL GERMANY!!!


Is someone about to be working for Harman?




9050lx said:


> Is the SS TN4.900D the exact same amp?I may substitute for the SS but the PPI looks much nicer I think.


They are the same according to both Grizz and the new rep that was here for a minute.

For me I have the PPI but think the SS looks better and was going to swap to the SS's to finish off my system. I may have my 900.4 up for sale soon. With either one you pick they will serve you well. They are very solid TINY amps. The smallest of my new amps (50x2 @ 4ohms) is more then 1.5" bigger for every dimension.


----------



## 07azhhr

9050lx said:


> Is the SS TN4.900D the exact same amp?I may substitute for the SS but the PPI looks much nicer I think.


There is also the NVX amps that share the board but probably use different options on the parts list. Sonic looks to be having a good sale on the 5 channel at $199.

NVX JAD900.5 800W RMS Full Range Class D 5-Channel Car Amplifier


----------



## eviling

Grizz Archer said:


> Believe it or not they are authorized. Everybody hates that fact that he is an industry destroying whore, but the owner is a friend of the owner... Used to make me sick and pissed off, but now all I can do is laugh...


what is he doing that is destroying the industry? by supplying goods to customers ?


----------



## rexroadj

eviling said:


> what is he doing that is destroying the industry? by supplying goods to customers ?


Its all about Whoring.....its what lowers "cost" which in turn lowers quality to meet demand of said cost....its a nasty circle....Its what everyone complains about but refuses to acknowledge/understand. You cannot have Kia prices on a Bently and expect a Bently as we know it. Its what the market has become. Its a creation of ignorance. The sooner people shed the ignorance of the concept the sooner they will appreciate the products for what they are instead what used to be or should be. 

Its a matter of understanding business as a complete circle (understanding further down the road instead of an inch in front of ones face without seeing what the consequences could be)


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> I have a hilarious comment to make to both PPI GUY and REXROADJ, in favor of you both, but I will bite, my tongue and keep my mouth shut which is not easy when the door to bitter sarcasm opened and rolled out the red carpet for me...
> 
> But I have a feeling REXROADJ will open his big mouth and say exactly what I really would enjoy saying. It is like we share a brain. Scary, but true... lol


HEY! I resent that.......Oh no? wait? I represent that 
I've been trying to be better.....

Its not so much about giving up on the product because you are gone.....I agree that they are stamped "Grizz" and thats awesome....pride should be had with those lines...YOU (and at the time Epsilon) did a great a great service to the SS and PPI names...... What I meant by it was more in regards to, its a big market and if I am comparing say 3-4 products that may be relatively similar......when it comes to pro's and con's those two lines are going to get a con for loyalty.....Obviously I dont know anything that happend (details) nor is it any of my business.....Maybe you said F' Off to everyone? Who knows? Its just a matter of loyalty to someone that has always gone above and beyond with honesty and information to me personally. I have loyalty to that.......Thats all! 
Congrats on JBL! EXCELLENT choice!!! (wish they stepped up the amp line a bit, but....everyone on here knows me as a JBL nut hugger?)
I have a Harmon Comp. package with my affiliation with my music publishing company....its not as good as it used to be but I plan on taking advantage of a few of those pieces when I get my ass working on my build (Mmmmm 660gti's

Really happy for your new "life" over there Grizz! (your wife must be happy back "home"?)


----------



## rugdnit

rexroadj said:


> Its all about Whoring.....its what lowers "cost" which in turn lowers quality to meet demand of said cost....its a nasty circle....Its what everyone complains about but refuses to acknowledge/understand. You cannot have Kia prices on a Bently and expect a Bently as we know it. Its what the market has become. Its a creation of ignorance. The sooner people shed the ignorance of the concept the sooner they will appreciate the products for what they are instead what used to be or should be.
> 
> Its a matter of understanding business as a complete circle *(understanding further down the road instead of an inch in front of ones face without seeing what the consequences could be*)


THIS. On so many levels.


----------



## eviling

rexroadj said:


> Its all about Whoring.....its what lowers "cost" which in turn lowers quality to meet demand of said cost....its a nasty circle....Its what everyone complains about but refuses to acknowledge/understand. You cannot have Kia prices on a Bently and expect a Bently as we know it. Its what the market has become. Its a creation of ignorance. The sooner people shed the ignorance of the concept the sooner they will appreciate the products for what they are instead what used to be or should be.
> 
> Its a matter of understanding business as a complete circle (understanding further down the road instead of an inch in front of ones face without seeing what the consequences could be)


I can understand that but a business model built on fast supply lower quality model for our.numbers will always pull for a larger supply encouraging a company to use assembly lines and assembly lines reduce quality in their very nature for stream lining. One can not be mad at a single outlet who's been successful just because the market doesn't trend the way you wish. That's just blind hate. 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Grizz Archer

9050lx said:


> Is the SS TN4.900D the exact same amp?I may substitute for the SS but the PPI looks much nicer I think.


The SS and PPI boards are identical...


----------



## Grizz Archer

07azhhr said:


> Is someone about to be working for Harman?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are the same according to both Grizz and the new rep that was here for a minute.
> 
> For me I have the PPI but think the SS looks better and was going to swap to the SS's to finish off my system. I may have my 900.4 up for sale soon. With either one you pick they will serve you well. They are very solid TINY amps. The smallest of my new amps (50x2 @ 4ohms) is more then 1.5" bigger for every dimension.


Nope, not working for Harman. I would love to, but nope.


----------



## Grizz Archer

eviling said:


> what is he doing that is destroying the industry? by supplying goods to customers ?


It is not just him, it is all the online sellers that are int he race to zero profit. But we do NOT need to go there for the billionth time...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> HEY! I resent that.......Oh no? wait? I represent that
> I've been trying to be better.....
> 
> Its not so much about giving up on the product because you are gone.....I agree that they are stamped "Grizz" and thats awesome....pride should be had with those lines...YOU (and at the time Epsilon) did a great a great service to the SS and PPI names...... What I meant by it was more in regards to, its a big market and if I am comparing say 3-4 products that may be relatively similar......when it comes to pro's and con's those two lines are going to get a con for loyalty.....Obviously I dont know anything that happend (details) nor is it any of my business.....Maybe you said F' Off to everyone? Who knows? Its just a matter of loyalty to someone that has always gone above and beyond with honesty and information to me personally. I have loyalty to that.......Thats all!
> Congrats on JBL! EXCELLENT choice!!! (wish they stepped up the amp line a bit, but....everyone on here knows me as a JBL nut hugger?)
> I have a Harmon Comp. package with my affiliation with my music publishing company....its not as good as it used to be but I plan on taking advantage of a few of those pieces when I get my ass working on my build (Mmmmm 660gti's
> 
> Really happy for your new "life" over there Grizz! (your wife must be happy back "home"?)


10-4 bro. Yeah digging it over here, but the banking procedures here suck ass! Nothing works except for cash. But yeah, Wife is beyond happy to truly be home...


----------



## Grizz Archer

eviling said:


> I can understand that but a business model built on fast supply lower quality model for our.numbers will always pull for a larger supply encouraging a company to use assembly lines and assembly lines reduce quality in their very nature for stream lining. One can not be mad at a single outlet who's been successful just because the market doesn't trend the way you wish. That's just blind hate.
> 
> Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2


Please tell me why you think assembly lines reduce quality. They way I see it, when you have a multi-million dollar machine that tests every single parts to a specified tolerance before insertion, how that possibly reduce quality as compared to hand made buy humans that do not test every parts and leave alot more room for error. The percentage of amps that come off the line that are defective are almost nil, but when the "hand made" amps ruled the industry, there were higher defective rates and larger swings in specifications, as to be expected...


----------



## eviling

Grizz Archer said:


> Please tell me why you think assembly lines reduce quality. They way I see it, when you have a multi-million dollar machine that tests every single parts to a specified tolerance before insertion, how that possibly reduce quality as compared to hand made buy humans that do not test every parts and leave alot more room for error. The percentage of amps that come off the line that are defective are almost nil, but when the "hand made" amps ruled the industry, there were higher defective rates and larger swings in specifications, as to be expected...


they don't require it and genraly dont start with it but as lines develope and how companys do R&D these days and how products are implimented and with patent costs and everything, its already taxing on tons of tags that these companys are trying to recoop. they do so by using less superior parts to save on bottom lines, simpler features to minamize returns and complications and the tech support over head, repairs, millions of angry customers, on top of thee tags, certafied dealers need to add even more costs to be certafied with all these companys, lost overhead for holding gear they know wont sell but have to hold because of obligations, where they'll end up loosing out and headging prices through out for even more beef. this is just how i see it. everybodys intitled to their opinion. i am my self starting to see the evils of these companys like newegg , its the wallmart feasco on a whole new level. but even with out these evils we now have ebay and even as far to cut out all the middle men and just have a hosting site and meet each other over email and cell phones. thee are changing times.

i see hybrid as a good example as a company ive been looking at for years and been following, and even talking to scott. i mean he even told me one time he had protypes for the simplest things like grills cost him 13k$ to create. imagine a drive. granted he keeps up with this by limiting retailers, and sales are very controled compared to other audio distributions. i think it is a good exapmle of how a company can be done and still mentain high quality. much like others like masconi. so i dont believe these companys are destroyng these companys i see them evolving. hybrid would of never sucueeded with the world of mouth method used 10 years ago, not at least still be in the same place it is and how it is now. could of been better mcold of been werse, who knows but the point is their re still quality products out their...pioneer still makes stage 4 stuff, the DEX p99 the speakers. they still make entry level 80$ full speaker setups and 500$ pairs of mid ranges. i don't really see the destruction described. i just see a changing econemy, not in an unhealthy way but in a forced way.


----------



## 9050lx

With woofers etc if the device is nonfunctional will they exchange the amp?If I buy the TN4.900D instead of the ppi will they honor the warranty the same?What If bought from the ebay company site?


----------



## eviling

9050lx said:


> With woofers etc if the device is nonfunctional will they exchange the amp?If I buy the TN4.900D instead of the ppi will they honor the warranty the same?What If bought from the ebay company site?


they put terms on these corapsponding sites and this can all be looked up on the sites sonicelectronix.com ebay site is pretty much the same as their store, when i pay with my paypal account that has the email my sonic account is on, they linked my orders.


----------



## Grizz Archer

eviling said:


> they don't require it and genraly dont start with it but as lines develope and how companys do R&D these days and how products are implimented and with patent costs and everything, its already taxing on tons of tags that these companys are trying to recoop. they do so by using less superior parts to save on bottom lines, simpler features to minamize returns and complications and the tech support over head, repairs, millions of angry customers, on top of thee tags, certafied dealers need to add even more costs to be certafied with all these companys, lost overhead for holding gear they know wont sell but have to hold because of obligations, where they'll end up loosing out and headging prices through out for even more beef. this is just how i see it. everybodys intitled to their opinion. i am my self starting to see the evils of these companys like newegg , its the wallmart feasco on a whole new level. but even with out these evils we now have ebay and even as far to cut out all the middle men and just have a hosting site and meet each other over email and cell phones. thee are changing times.
> 
> i see hybrid as a good example as a company ive been looking at for years and been following, and even talking to scott. i mean he even told me one time he had protypes for the simplest things like grills cost him 13k$ to create. imagine a drive. granted he keeps up with this by limiting retailers, and sales are very controled compared to other audio distributions. i think it is a good exapmle of how a company can be done and still mentain high quality. much like others like masconi. so i dont believe these companys are destroyng these companys i see them evolving. hybrid would of never sucueeded with the world of mouth method used 10 years ago, not at least still be in the same place it is and how it is now. could of been better mcold of been werse, who knows but the point is their re still quality products out their...pioneer still makes stage 4 stuff, the DEX p99 the speakers. they still make entry level 80$ full speaker setups and 500$ pairs of mid ranges. i don't really see the destruction described. i just see a changing econemy, not in an unhealthy way but in a forced way.


Thanx for your explanation. I agree with you. And Buwalda is right. The tooling costs are astronomical. Hence another reason why companies are starting to use more open tools. If somebody can make the same woofer as a JL driver with tons of tooling, but for alot less money, people will buy it. On the other hand, other people love all of the custom tooling and patented stuff. My point was fairly simple... A product has an MSRP of $500. Shops will sell it for $425 - $450 ish. But then an online guy will sell it for $400. Then another guy sells it for $385. Now shops start to lose money so they start selling online as well for $360. And hence the race to zero profit is already in full effect. Do not get me wrong, I am a guy who buys alot of things online. I am all about the best price as well. But as the prices drop for us, the profit drops as well, so people do not want to sell it because they make so little money. So they demand a more profitable line. This is where some some companies change tolerances and quality to meet the needs of the market. But then us guys who demand quality will not buy them anymore. Now we are back to full circle. I am an ebay fanatic, but this is where it all started. No fault of their own. The market created the problems. But in a way this allows some companies to conform, while other can rise above.


----------



## PPI_GUY

If I am a brick & mortar store owner, I absolutely hate the online stores. Especially if I sign on as an authorized dealer and my rep tells me "oh yeah! you've got the territory and we've got your back!". Then, the very next week I see an online store not only saying they are authorized but, because of quantity they are undercutting my prices and not having to charge sales tax, etc. etc. What's the point of me being an authorized dealer? 
I know companies have to sell product but, it's nearly impossible for them to take care of "mom & pop" stores while telling the big boys they can't sell the stuff at a lower price point than the little guys do. We all know that isn't how it works.
This is just another branch of the "race to zero" tree that is killing car audio.


----------



## atbear

07azhhr said:


> There is also the NVX amps that share the board but probably use different options on the parts list. Sonic looks to be having a good sale on the 5 channel at $199.
> 
> NVX JAD900.5 800W RMS Full Range Class D 5-Channel Car Amplifier


Wow, great deal. Thanks for posting.

Grizz, et. al., I'm sure this has been answered already, so I'm sorry to ask again, but any idea one whether this amp exactly the same as the PPI/SS, more like the Polk D5000.5, or its own take on the same board design? Thanks!


----------



## rexroadj

If you are not involved into business (on any real level) or been to a manufacturer over seas that is being hired to produce something for you.....its likely a waste of time attempting to get into any of this (no offense Ray...your just way off in your thinking here).

It shows over and over and over.....hence the same mute ****ing discussion on every dumb ****ing thread on here! Things are the way they are in almost all industries from auto, audio, clothing, sporting goods, etc.....because of self righteous, cheap, ignorant consumers that think every aspect of life/world is a ****ing Burger King drive through! Life doesnt work that way! IT JUST AINT YOUR WAY RIGHT AWAY.......certainly not at cheap MOFO prices! You want USA hand made (less consistent products) PAY THE ****ING PRICE, SIT DOWN, AND SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE! Knowing for a fact that will never happen......Lets still sit back and still shut the **** up about all this (Sorry mods........tension breaker....had to be done


----------



## Grizz Archer

atbear said:


> Wow, great deal. Thanks for posting.
> 
> Grizz, et. al., I'm sure this has been answered already, so I'm sorry to ask again, but any idea one whether this amp exactly the same as the PPI/SS, more like the Polk D5000.5, or its own take on the same board design? Thanks!


Actually, not sure. To be totally honest I have never heard of NVX. I keep tabs on just about everybody, American or not, but I know nothing about them... Sorry.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> If you are not involved into business (on any real level) or been to a manufacturer over seas that is being hired to produce something for you.....its likely a waste of time attempting to get into any of this (no offense Ray...your just way off in your thinking here).
> 
> It shows over and over and over.....hence the same mute ****ing discussion on every dumb ****ing thread on here! Things are the way they are in almost all industries from auto, audio, clothing, sporting goods, etc.....because of self righteous, cheap, ignorant consumers that think every aspect of life/world is a ****ing Burger King drive through! Life doesnt work that way! IT JUST AINT YOUR WAY RIGHT AWAY.......certainly not at cheap MOFO prices! You want USA hand made (less consistent products) PAY THE ****ING PRICE, SIT DOWN, AND SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE! Knowing for a fact that will never happen......Lets still sit back and still shut the **** up about all this (Sorry mods........tension breaker....had to be done


Yup! And while I can say whatever I want now, this whole topic got old 4 years ago. I got tired of copy/pasting the facts every year...


----------



## PPI_GUY

OK, lets change this discussion up alittle!
Grizz, you were/are privy to alot of inside info and discussions. So, what's next? 
I mean, what is coming on the horizon in car audio? Surely there are some pretty cool technologies and equipment in the pipeline that you've heard about? If you can't mention manufacturers that's cool just a few hints of things to look for will suffice!


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> OK, lets change this discussion up alittle!
> Grizz, you were/are privy to alot of inside info and discussions. So, what's next?
> I mean, what is coming on the horizon in car audio? Surely there are some pretty cool technologies and equipment in the pipeline that you've heard about? If you can't mention manufacturers that's cool just a few hints of things to look for will suffice!


Man, I hate to let you down, but nothing revolutionary is coming that I have heard about. But I can tell what is really becoming more and more obvious. You get what you pay for! Ancient saying, I know. But the high end still carries a high end price, period. There are not killer deals on it. And if the deal is great, then the quality os probably less than great. But beware... While we rarely get more than what we pay for, it see alot of examples where we do not get our money's worth. Big names can reel in higher prices that they deserve.

You are going to crap when you find out exactly what I will be competing with in my car. I still can't believe it, but a friend has me totally convinced and has the proof to back his persuasion. 

If I think of anything, or come across anything truly new, I'll be sure to post...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Man, I hate to let you down, but nothing revolutionary is coming that I have heard about. But I can tell what is really becoming more and more obvious. You get what you pay for! Ancient saying, I know. But the high end still carries a high end price, period. There are not killer deals on it. And if the deal is great, then the quality os probably less than great. But beware... While we rarely get more than what we pay for, it see alot of examples where we do not get our money's worth. Big names can reel in higher prices that they deserve.
> 
> You are going to crap when you find out exactly what I will be competing with in my car. I still can't believe it, but a friend has me totally convinced and has the proof to back his persuasion.
> 
> If I think of anything, or come across anything truly new, I'll be sure to post...


Well, that sucks. I thought surely there was some new wonder amp or super-sub coming that would revolutionize car audio! :laugh:
I fully believe what you say about getting what you pay for. Too many examples of that around.

You have piqued my interest with those hints about your new competition setup. You gotta give us a few more details! Is it a brand/model that people overlook or trash because it isn't commonly thought of as "quality" equipment? Or are you talking about some boutique-type equipment that isn't availble to us mere mortals???


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Well, that sucks. I thought surely there was some new wonder amp or super-sub coming that would revolutionize car audio! :laugh:
> I fully believe what you say about getting what you pay for. Too many examples of that around.
> 
> You have piqued my interest with those hints about your new competition setup. You gotta give us a few more details! Is it a brand/model that people overlook or trash because it isn't commonly thought of as "quality" equipment? Or are you talking about some boutique-type equipment that isn't availble to us mere mortals???


LOL! Nothing revolutionary on the way that I know of...

As for the BMW... It will be a Team JBL Germany vehicle. I will obviously run the MS-8. For amps, I will be running 3 MS-A1004 amps for mids and highs, and 2 MS-A5001 amps for subs. I will use a pair of JBL MS-10SD4 subs. But I cannot tell you what speakers I am running. You;d have to fly over here and get me drunk. The flight would be the least of your worries! lol I'll divulge after it's first competition more than likely... Now I need a wiring sponsorship!


----------



## subwoofery

PPI_GUY said:


> Well, that sucks. I thought surely there was some new wonder amp or super-sub coming that would revolutionize car audio! :laugh:
> I fully believe what you say about getting what you pay for. Too many examples of that around.
> 
> You have piqued my interest with those hints about your new competition setup. You gotta give us a few more details! Is it a brand/model that people overlook or trash because it isn't commonly thought of as "quality" equipment? Or are you talking about some boutique-type equipment that isn't availble to us mere mortals???


I too am interested in your new build. And to reply to your question, Grizz is gonna use a full-on JBL system :thumbsup:

Kelvin


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> I too am interested in your new build. And to reply to your question, Grizz is gonna use a full-on JBL system :thumbsup:
> 
> Kelvin


More or less, in a way, positively, but not quite, slightly different but yet common, high end but maybe not... lol But my JBL friend and I think we have a winning combination. Actually it has already won, but not yet, but has the credential already proven, only not in this car... Not just off-the-shelf speakers, yet not at all custom. All commercially available, in a way...

Confused? Good... lol 

If the car wins, there will be a reason why it will shock some people. There will be some people that think I am insane of stupid, but what's new. There is knowledge far superior to mine that has me convinced to do what I'm doing...


----------



## trumpet

Grizz Archer said:


> If the car wins, there will be a reason why it will shock some people. There will be some people that think I am insane of stupid, but what's new. There is knowledge far superior to mine that has me convinced to do what I'm doing...


Awww hell, here comes the all-tweeter line array front stage.


----------



## Grizz Archer

trumpet said:


> Awww hell, here comes the all-tweeter line array front stage.


Yes, but Isobaric-loaded planers tweeters in a mixed phase array! lol Naw, nothing like that...


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> *Well, that sucks. I thought surely there was some new wonder amp or super-sub coming that would revolutionize car audio! :laugh:*
> I fully believe what you say about getting what you pay for. Too many examples of that around.
> 
> You have piqued my interest with those hints about your new competition setup. You gotta give us a few more details! Is it a brand/model that people overlook or trash because it isn't commonly thought of as "quality" equipment? Or are you talking about some boutique-type equipment that isn't availble to us mere mortals???


I'd just be happy if Epsilon would just finally release the PPI source units for sale.
It's become ridiculous.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Yes, but Isobaric-loaded planers tweeters in a mixed phase array! lol Naw, nothing like that...


OS Kraco and Sparkomatic 6x9's!

I knew you were f'n nuts!!!! 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

I'm wondering if he might be pulling drivers from one of the Harman Home or Pro Audio brands.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I'd just be happy if Epsilon would just finally release the PPI source units for sale.
> It's become ridiculous.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Two years late is bad? They were advertising Reference amps 5 or 6 years before they finally came out. In fact, ones that were rejected were painted grey and sold to Germany because they would not wait anymore. lol


----------



## rexroadj

Are we looking at another "stock" BMW speaker stage, ms8, and subs with MO' power? 
Hmm.....Yup, I'm intrigued! Love me some JBL. MS comp line is just silly good at its price point!


----------



## Mike 01Hawk

Got this sexy beast yesterday. Replaced an old former "boner" favorite, the DSC4125, as I want to have a amp under the seat. Gonna go for a total stealth install. 

Well I, like others, couldn't get over those end caps. Well, thanks to 07azhhr in post 1008: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1615210-post1008.html he gave me the courage to break out the screwdriver on a brand new $200 amp 

20 min later, I now have one sexy beast  Also now that the brackets aren't there lifting the floor of the amp off the ground, I can just hot glue some Velcro to the case for a cheap, light, and effective mount straight to the carpet. It's how I had my old DSC4125 mounted and that sucker weighed over 11lbs and it didn't go anywhere.

For you weight freaks. The end caps and 8 screws holding them weighed in at a total of 6oz. So it brought the original 5lb 11oz P900.4 down to 5lb 5oz. 

Anyhoo, on to the pics.

For reference (yeah, in case you forgot)


















Notice the gap for ventilation 









Better angle on dat gap



























And for giggles, comparison to the DSC4125  Pre end-cap neutering.


----------



## duro78

Looks a lot better without the rails. Thanks I must of missed that little mod. It definitely makes the amp look better

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rugdnit

I was leaning to the soundstreams until I saw that you can take the rails off. Very Niiice!


----------



## 07azhhr

duro78 said:


> Looks a lot better without the rails. Thanks I must of missed that little mod. It definitely makes the amp look better
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Ya my post showing that was probably atleast 15 pages ago lol.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Just curious if the original intent of the rails lifting the amp above it's mounting surface might have been to aid in cooling? That's alot of power from a small amp. Seems like there would need to be some heat dissipation via air ciculationg around, over and under the amp. Then again, it might no be a problem at all.


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> *Just curious if the original intent of the rails lifting the amp above it's mounting surface might have been to aid in cooling? That's alot of power from a small amp. Seems like there would need to be some heat dissipation via air ciculationg around, over and under the amp.* Then again, it might no be a problem at all.


Agreed.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Mike 01Hawk

The lift of the rails is at most 2mm. Not much to aid in cooling IMO. With the carpet, there's still some space.


----------



## SaturnSL1

Mike 01Hawk said:


> Got this sexy beast yesterday. Replaced an old former "boner" favorite, the DSC4125, as I want to have a amp under the seat. Gonna go for a total stealth install.


That is one purrdy amplifier, I have a feeling these are going to be valuable in the future


----------



## PPI_GUY

gregerst22 said:


> So I'm in the market for a couple of amps a 2ch and a mono. I want class-d for the small size and low heat. I been looking at everything from Alpine to Sundown and was reading up on the Polk amps when I came across this thread. The Phantom's look to be very similar to Polk but are priced much better however the one issue I have is with the gains. Apparently in the reviews I read the gains were set very low which made the amps less suitable for HU's that have low output. I know for a fact that my HU puts out a very low signal, Acura, and was wondering if this was still an issue with these amp. Forgive me if this was discussed already but I just don't have time to read all 50 pages of this thread. lol


The Phantoms are OK with any head unit having 4 volts and above, I think. If that still isn't enough and you still want to go with PPI amps, you might want to look into picking up a quality line driver. Here are a couple of nice ones...

Rockford Fosgate RF-BLD 2-Channel Balanced Line Driver

AudioControl Overdrive 24 dB Gain Line Driver (Salmon Grey)


----------



## Mike 01Hawk

The manual does say and yes, 1 set can output all channels


----------



## SaturnSL1

I'd take the PPI over the JL any day just for the name. Precision Power makes me think of the good old days, JL makes me think of dollar signs.


----------



## Mike 01Hawk

I couldn't care less about a name brand. I don't have the time to keep up with how many times the company has been sold, bought out, changed hands, gone to cheaper material, how are the current owners, where's it being built (like that REALLY matters), blah blah blah.

My purchase logic:

First: Do the specs meet my needs
Second: If it passes #1, what's it cost compared to similarly spec'd models, cheaper the better cause I'm a cheap ass.
Third: If it passes #2, how's THIS particular piece of equipment's QC / Rep?
Fourth: If it passes #1-3.... *SOLD!!!*


----------



## SaturnSL1

gregerst22 said:


> How is their quality these days? I've been out of the car audio scene for awhile but when I had a PPI amp back in the late 90's it was always shutting off because it was overheating I could have easily fried an egg on it I wasn't even pushing it hard and it had plenty of ventilation. Granted that was a long time ago but it has left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm a bit skittish about PPI amps. I'm looking for a little reassurance before I pull the trigger on any more PPI gear.
> I'm pretty sure I don't have to worry about these Phantom amps overheating but I don't want them breaking down on me either.


The one you had must have been faulty or you where doing something very wrong. Very very wrong.


----------



## JAX

The PPI will meet most peoples needs or the other variations of it. It is not a PPI design , it is a mass produced amp with slight changes per brand name. 

If you compare old to new then you will have to know what your looking at in order to know if new is junk compared to old. 

The new sound stream refs are pretty good but still not sane as old. But owned by same company. 

For $200 for new compact amp what are you expecting?

What is more Important is application and sound. 

I installed some PPI phantom. Was fine with it. I thought the JL XD sounded better though. 

But my focal sounds better than both and it is a\b .


For most the new PPI is fine


----------



## ZAKOH

gregerst22 said:


> On a scale of 1 - 10 10 being the best how would you guys rate this and the other Phantom class D amps overall compared to the competition?
> For the price I wouldn't expect the 900.4 to be as good as the JL Audio XD400/4 but is the JL twice as good? It cost twice as much.


IMHO, in their normal "under $250" price range, the PPI Phantom series, as well as their cousins from Soundstream and Polk, along with Alpine's MRX/MRP product lines, are the best value among compact Class D amplifiers, as well as possibly among all types of amplifiers in this price range.


----------



## JAX

let us know what you think after you get acustom to listening to them.


----------



## setty7

Hi guys new to the forum. My brother just purchased a sundown sa-12-d2. He is thinking about purchasing the ppi p1000.1


Is this a good amp for this sub? Or should he go with cadence, nakamichi or soundstream?


----------



## ZAKOH

setty7 said:


> Hi guys new to the forum. My brother just purchased a sundown sa-12-d2. He is thinking about purchasing the ppi p1000.1
> 
> 
> Is this a good amp for this sub? Or should he go with cadence, nakamichi or soundstream?


It does more than its rated power (the true RMS watt is supposed to be close to 600/1000/1200) and uses current efficiently. It's up to you to decide if this is the right amplifier for subwoofer.


----------



## Mike 01Hawk

Finally got my sub installed, bumped it 30+ min on my commute this morning. Got out, put my hand on the amp it wasn't really even warm. 

Cargo "blocks" from the wife's VW  Held like a champ, bish didn't go anywhere.

And some scrap wire I used so I could just throw it in there. I've got some nice 12awg waiting the final placement of both sub (in a custom fiberglass wheel well box under the carpet) and amp (under passenger seat). 

Woot!!!









*Amp: *PPI P900.4
*Sub: *Alpine SWR-12D2
*Box:* Goldwood TR12F Goldwood TR12F 12" Single Truck Box Speaker Cabinet 260-638 I needed a filler item for some other PE stuff I was ordering, lol


----------



## ZAKOH

Grizz Archer said:


> Just thought I would offer up the 3rd party testing of the Phantom P900.4 for you when you get ready to compare...
> 
> At 14.4V and 1%THD:
> 4x145 at 4ohms - 49 amps of current
> 4x219 at 2ohms - 84 amps of current



Here is one odd thing about this amplifier. 84 amps of current are necessary to power 2ohm load, but internal fuses are only 75 amps?


----------



## Grizz Archer

ZAKOH said:


> Here is one odd thing about this amplifier. 84 amps of current are necessary to power 2ohm load, but internal fuses are only 75 amps?


I would like to explain this, but since I do not work there anymore, I think tech support needs to answer this for you. Good Luck!


----------



## thomasluke

Grizz Archer said:


> I would like to explain this, but since I do not work there anymore, I think tech support needs to answer this for you. Good Luck!


None needed really...:laugh:


----------



## pjf1fan

Grizz Archer said:


> I would like to explain this, but since I do not work there anymore, I think tech support needs to answer this for you. Good Luck!


Grizz, you could explain it to us in general car audio terms not related to the specific brand in question. I just received my P900.4 but it's not installed. I'd like to know more about it before I go ahead with the extensive work involved in getting it in my 2006 Jetta.


----------



## Grizz Archer

pjf1fan said:


> Grizz, you could explain it to us in general car audio terms not related to the specific brand in question. I just received my P900.4 but it's not installed. I'd like to know more about it before I go ahead with the extensive work involved in getting it in my 2006 Jetta.


You sound worried. Do not be. It is not a big deal. I just wanted to hear the techsupport answer before he had to outsource the question. I really do not want to do anymore tech support for them. I already do a toe of system design, preamp advice, enclosure design and other things that they cannot do. It is not my place to take over their thread. Surely, they must be on here alot and answer everybody's questions.


----------



## rton20s

Grizz, not to hijack this thread but, [email protected] has been around a little bit to talk about the new DEQ.8 and Synthesis processors and the 2013 lineups. He stated that they dumped all if the old subwoofers that were not Grizz designed and introduced some new models that weren't your design. Also talked a little about the iON amps. Haven't seen anyone from Epsillon active in this thread since you left.


----------



## hawkfan

Soooo, is the P900.5 officially available yet? I see it for sale on one site, but I know that can be misleading.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rton20s said:


> Grizz, not to hijack this thread but, [email protected] has been around a little bit to talk about the new DEQ.8 and Synthesis processors and the 2013 lineups. He stated that they dumped all if the old subwoofers that were not Grizz designed and introduced some new models that weren't your design. Also talked a little about the iON amps. Haven't seen anyone from Epsillon active in this thread since you left.


Glad somebody is there top give some information. He is correct, it appears that most of my designs are still active. NONE of the new designs were even "concepted" when I left at the end of June. I am not there, but I think it is safe to assume that Ryan and Brandon handle all of the product development. I am not sure who is doing the engineering, but I assume it is all done elsewhere. They do have a test room that we built the first month I was there. While I liked to get second opinions, I never did my personal testing with anybody else. I wanted to be alone and use my protocol that I learned from a truly brilliant engineer from original Altec Lansing. I would NEVER teach anybody my protocol, so it would be interesting to know how testing is done with no protocol and no experience in this realm of the industry.

Well, glad somebody is in other threads at least. Thanx for the feedback bro...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz has made it clear to look for PPI/SS answers from someone else so let's honor his request.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Grizz has made it clear to look for PPI/SS answers from someone else so let's honor his request.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Thanx man. I swear, I am not trying to be a dickhead! lol But it is not my business to answer anything on Epsilon's behalf. Plus, everything that is new and happened after I was gone, I don't know about anyway. Sure, I was curious and look ed at all of their catalogs, but that was about it... If I owned a company, I would not want an ex-employee running my threads ans giving out any advice whatsoever.


----------



## Grizz Archer

gregerst22 said:


> If you do get an answer form PPI I would love to see it posted here.


There are a couple of great engineers on here that explain this. But seriously, it is not a big deal. Quickly - think about this guys. If you have a fuse and you feed it with 1 more amp, will it blow? What about 5 amps? 7.85764 amps? lol Well, what is a slow-blow fuse? What is the fuse voltage rating? And most importantly, how often can you draw more current at full throttle? Music is transient so you will almost never pull anywhere near the fuse rating anyway. Hopefully that will eliminate any concerns.


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz.........Did you get my Pms from a little while ago?


----------



## rton20s

Grizz Archer said:


> Thanx man. I swear, I am not trying to be a dickhead! lol But it is not my business to answer anything on Epsilon's behalf. Plus, everything that is new and happened after I was gone, I don't know about anyway. Sure, I was curious and look ed at all of their catalogs, but that was about it... If I owned a company, I would not want an ex-employee running my threads ans giving out any advice whatsoever.


I think everyone understands and appreciates the contributions you made to this community while with Epsilon and continue to make now that you have moved on. We should all understand that it is no longer your place to speak for the company, and even if you did so favorably someone could misconstrue it and think poorly of you. I say keep doing your thing, and hopefully Epsilon will have someone else, perhaps Ryan, to maintain a strong presence in the community.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Grizz.........Did you get my Pms from a little while ago?


Was without internet while I was in the alps for 4 days. But will get to them tomorrow morning, I promise! Sorry I'm late man...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rton20s said:


> I think everyone understands and appreciates the contributions you made to this community while with Epsilon and continue to make now that you have moved on. We should all understand that it is no longer your place to speak for the company, and even if you did so favorably someone could misconstrue it and think poorly of you. I say keep doing your thing, and hopefully Epsilon will have someone else, perhaps Ryan, to maintain a strong presence in the community.


Thanx for the kind words. IMHO, they need to try to find a person that has alot of experience and has been around awhile, The problem is that that are not many guy like that left. The few guys that I respect most are already in a company. Or they are get out of the industry. Anybody can have a presence, know what I mean. But you really need to know your **** when being active on here. There are some smart people on here. And you need to be able to be honest and say "I don't know". I do not too many guys in this industry that are willing to do this. Hell, I had to ask for help on amplifier questions alot, Some of the tweaks asked questions I just did not know the answer to. But it was cool because I got to learn more... A company should really have an electronics specialist and acoustic specialist, imho.


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Was without internet while I was in the alps for 4 days. But will get to them tomorrow morning, I promise! Sorry I'm late man...


No apology necessary man! Alps huh? That must have been amazing! 
Theres an additional potential player involved too! I know you know him, I will get in touch about that after I hear back about the other thing first! Its kinda funny how **** happens! 

Thanks again!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> No apology necessary man! Alps huh? That must have been amazing!
> Theres an additional potential player involved too! I know you know him, I will get in touch about that after I hear back about the other thing first! Its kinda funny how **** happens!
> 
> Thanks again!


10-4, we'll chat tomorrow. Yeah the alps were way cool. Getting ready to upload pics to FB in a few minutes...


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> 10-4, we'll chat tomorrow. Yeah the alps were way cool. Getting ready to upload pics to FB in a few minutes...


Which is better, the Alps or the Sierras?
Since you've seen both, you'd be da man to ask. 

A little trivia, I found out that a few areas not more than an 1.5-2.0 hours from me get as much as 400" of snow per year and that we still have some glaciers.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Which is better, the Alps or the Sierras?
> Since you've seen both, you'd be da man to ask.
> 
> A little trivia, I found out that a few areas not more than an 1.5-2.0 hours from me get as much as 400" of snow per year and that we still have some glaciers.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Love the Sierras. But c'mon man, we are talking about the alps. From Germany on the north shore of the Bodensee, I can the alps in both Switzerland and Austria for as far as the eye can see. I will dis the Sierras, but these are freaking magnificent in a way that cannot be described in words... I Love Tahoe!


----------



## n_olympios

The Alps are magnificent and a joy to drive through. I've done it twice (Italy through to Austria) and it was a great experience. I wish I can do it again some day (ideally combined with an EMMA euro-final  ).


----------



## Grizz Archer

n_olympios said:


> The Alps are magnificent and a joy to drive through. I've done it twice (Italy through to Austria) and it was a great experience. I wish I can do it again some day (ideally combined with an EMMA euro-final  ).


I'll be in Salzburg in March for the event. If you will be there, shoot me a message and we'll get together for a beer, or two, or ten!


----------



## n_olympios

Ab imo pectore, I wish I could. Alas, I won't be able to this time, but I'll take you up on that offer in the future. 

Unless I find someone to gift me the ticket and hotel expenses.


----------



## Lyferxb9s

Has anyone put them amps through the ringer yet? Anyone run the mono's at .5ohm daily?


----------



## Grizz Archer

n_olympios said:


> Ab imo pectore, I wish I could. Alas, I won't be able to this time, but I'll take you up on that offer in the future.
> 
> Unless I find someone to gift me the ticket and hotel expenses.


Maybe I need to come up there again, see you and my buddy Yiannis, and stay at the Olympian across from Acropolis!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Lyferxb9s said:


> Has anyone put them amps through the ringer yet? Anyone run the mono's at .5ohm daily?


Why would somebody deliberately do something stupid like that? If a 1/2ohm amp is needed. Expecting a 1/ohm amp to work daily at 1/2 the rated impedance is just plain moronic. I would much rather have an amo that runs cool and does what it is supposed to. Not an amp that I am using incorrectly, with no more damping left, obviously going to run hot, and sound like ass. I would ask "Who in the hell does stupid **** like that and WHY?" But you just might find out with more replies... lol


----------



## ZAKOH

Grizz Archer said:


> Why would somebody deliberately do something stupid like that? If a 1/2ohm amp is needed. Expecting a 1/ohm amp to work daily at 1/2 the rated impedance is just plain moronic. I would much rather have an amo that runs cool and does what it is supposed to. Not an amp that I am using incorrectly, with no more damping left, obviously going to run hot, and sound like ass. I would ask "Who in the hell does stupid **** like that and WHY?" But you just might find out with more replies... lol



A more interesting question to me is.. can a robust 4-channel amplifier be bridged safely for a 2ohm subwoofer? I am thinking of this mostly as a convenience feature, rather than a way to extract more SPL (e.g. a lot of people have run into a situation at some point where they have a 4ohm DVC subwoofer and a 4 channel amp..). I suspect the P900.4 could take it, seein how nice and cool it runs when bridged for a 4ohm subwoofer.


----------



## Grizz Archer

ZAKOH said:


> A more interesting question to me is.. can a robust 4-channel amplifier be bridged safely for a 2ohm subwoofer? I am thinking of this mostly as a convenience feature, rather than a way to extract more SPL (e.g. a lot of people have run into a situation at some point where they have a 4ohm DVC subwoofer and a 4 channel amp..). I suspect the P900.4 could take it, seein how nice and cool it runs when bridged for a 4ohm subwoofer.


Possibly, but I cannot comment on that. But with all of the free education out there, and this forum to make inquires, why would somebody make a foolish purchase. Every impedance varions imaginable is available. People should just buy the right stuff in the first place...


----------



## n_olympios

Grizz Archer said:


> Maybe I need to come up there again, see you and my buddy Yiannis, and stay at the Olympian across from Acropolis!


Any time Grizz! But make sure you have time for me to show you around the good stuff.


----------



## Grizz Archer

n_olympios said:


> Any time Grizz! But make sure you have time for me to show you around the good stuff.


Would love that! Quick funny story, I got kicked out of titty bar for NOT touching the girls. They said ai was disrespectful because I did not like the women! WTF?! In the states, they have several 300 pound meathead bouncer to break your arms if you even try. True story from 1996. lol


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Would love that! Quick funny story, I got kicked out of titty bar for NOT touching the girls. They said ai was disrespectful because I did not like the women! WTF?! In the states, they have several 300 pound meathead bouncer to break your arms if you even try. True story from 1996. lol


I've been kicked out (repeatedly) for just the opposite.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Looking at the "new" PPI offerings in the 2013 catalog on their website, it looks like they've kept all of the products Grizz helped bring to market and simply rebadged some SS stuff with PPI logos. I will say that according to the PPI rep, the Phantom 13 subwoofer has some upgraded features over its SS cousin. 
How about an expansion of the Phantom amplifier line? A 3 channel and a smaller output monoblock...say, 600-750 watts?
How about a revamp of their dash mount pre-amp and crossover? They are currently still using the same designs from the DEI days!
And now it looks like the Art SQ series subs are down to only a 8"???

PrecisionPower 2011 Catalog

^^^it says "2011" but, is actually the 2013 catalog.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> I've been kicked out (repeatedly) for just the opposite.


Imagine that...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Looking at the "new" PPI offerings in the 2013 catalog on their website, it looks like they've kept all of the products Grizz helped bring to market and simply rebadged some SS stuff with PPI logos. I will say that according to the PPI rep, the Phantom 13 subwoofer has some upgraded features over its SS cousin.
> How about an expansion of the Phantom amplifier line? A 3 channel and a smaller output monoblock...say, 600-750 watts?
> How about a revamp of their dash mount pre-amp and crossover? They are currently still using the same designs from the DEI days!
> And now it looks like the Art SQ series subs are down to only a 8"???
> 
> PrecisionPower 2011 Catalog
> 
> ^^^it says "2011" but, is actually the 2013 catalog.


I actually wrote a comment and decided to change to this...

No comment


----------



## rton20s

Grizz Archer said:


> I actually wrote a comment and decided to change to this...
> 
> No comment


Dangit! We wanna know!


----------



## hawkfan

PPI_GUY said:


> Looking at the "new" PPI offerings in the 2013 catalog on their website, it looks like they've kept all of the products Grizz helped bring to market and simply rebadged some SS stuff with PPI logos. I will say that according to the PPI rep, the Phantom 13 subwoofer has some upgraded features over its SS cousin.
> *How about an expansion of the Phantom amplifier line? A 3 channel and a smaller output monoblock...say, 600-750 watts?*How about a revamp of their dash mount pre-amp and crossover? They are currently still using the same designs from the DEI days!
> And now it looks like the Art SQ series subs are down to only a 8"???
> 
> PrecisionPower 2011 Catalog
> 
> ^^^it says "2011" but, is actually the 2013 catalog.


I'd settle for a p900.5. It's popping up 'for sale' on the net, and yet it's 'available for pre-order only' on PPI's site. It's truly living up to it's name, Phantom.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rton20s said:


> Dangit! We wanna know!


I do not know for sure, I can only speculate. For the Phantom-13, it seems that the cone was changed to paper. Same basket, same 5" coil... So I do not know what the rep says is so upgraded. But if they left the rest of my driver parts the same, ought to sound good if the paper cone does not flex since it is flat...


----------



## rton20s

This was the comment on the Phantom 13 vs the Stealth 13 in the other thread. Were you involved in the Stealth 13 design Grizz? 



[email protected] said:


> The Phantom 13 shares the same frame and Vc as the Stealth 13 but that's where it stops. The Phantom 13 has a PP coated paper cone, and a foam surround for better sound quality.
> 
> As far as subs they all share the same motor structure but they have different cone material and surrounds, so they perform drastically different.
> 
> The R3 subs are a whole new animal just like the Phantom woofers. We gave you T7 & PC performance without the cast basket and huge price, but better sound and output.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rton20s said:


> This was the comment on the Phantom 13 vs the Stealth 13 in the other thread. Were you involved in the Stealth 13 design Grizz?


The Stealth-13 design was mine and I chose each part for a reason. But no comments other than that...


----------



## rton20s

Grizz Archer said:


> The Stealth-13 design was mine and I chose each part for a reason. But no comments other than that...


No additional comment needed. 

Out of curiosity, because I hadn't really looked at the Stealth before, how do you feel it stacks up to the much more expensive TW5 from JL? I understand they are completely different price points, etc., but they do seem to be competing for the same space (both literally and figuratively).


----------



## Grizz Archer

rton20s said:


> No additional comment needed.
> 
> Out of curiosity, because I hadn't really looked at the Stealth before, how do you feel it stacks up to the much more expensive TW5 from JL? I understand they are completely different price points, etc., but they do seem to be competing for the same space (both literally and figuratively).


Radically different . The JL sub is awesome. I think mine was awesome too. Mine is shallower, so theirs is not the shallowest sub, mine is. The Stealth-13 works in the same size box as a 8" making it way different than JL. Here was my thinking... If the space is so limited that you cannot fit a full size 8" sub, then where in the hell is the customer going to fit amplifiers? I wanted a big cone that needed to be strong since it is flat and flat piston generally suck, which is why nobody makes them anymore. I wanted it to work in a tiny box, and I mean tiny. I took the box that it ships in, fiberglassed in 1/4" masonite, and then played it. The box was about .4ft^3 gross volume. Not freaking bad at all. Not a ton of bass below 30Hz, but not bad. I sacrificed efficiency to get the sound and enclosure size I wanted. I figured that efficiency does not matter to a guy who could not fit a woofer over 2" deep. He would just be stoked to have a stout woofer that played really low, like a big woofer in a big box. Not one person complained about the efficiency. The way I would sell it is - it is 1/3 the cost of the JL and only needs 1/3 the power. But if you have alot of power, alot of space, alot of money, and are only limited to depth, then the JL subs is badass too. The two are just totally different...


----------



## Lyferxb9s

Grizz Archer said:


> Why would somebody deliberately do something stupid like that? If a 1/2ohm amp is needed. Expecting a 1/ohm amp to work daily at 1/2 the rated impedance is just plain moronic. I would much rather have an amo that runs cool and does what it is supposed to. Not an amp that I am using incorrectly, with no more damping left, obviously going to run hot, and sound like ass. I would ask "Who in the hell does stupid **** like that and WHY?" But you just might find out with more replies... lol


It's this weird thing called Impedance rise.


----------



## rexroadj

Lyferxb9s said:


> It's this weird thing called Impedance rise.


Slick.....do your self a favor and more importantly all of us......and let it go! 
This will just end up being another equivalent of someone showing up to a gun fight with a q-tip!


----------



## Lyferxb9s

How about instead of that someone Educate me on why accounting for impedance rise isn't worth doing. I joined this forum to learn, I ask questions for a reason. Not to stir up **** but because I don't know everything there Slick.


----------



## rexroadj

Lyferxb9s said:


> How about instead of that someone Educate me on why accounting for impedance rise isn't worth doing. I joined this forum to learn, I ask questions for a reason. Not to stir up **** but because I don't know everything there Slick.


Then ask a question!
Lets not try and pretend that it wasnt a smartass statement!


----------



## Lyferxb9s

Lyferxb9s said:


> How about instead of that someone *Educate me on why accounting for impedance rise isn't worth doing.* I joined this forum to learn, I ask questions for a reason. Not to stir up **** but because I don't know everything there Slick.


 This may not have been in question form but it's there nonetheless.


----------



## rexroadj

Lyferxb9s said:


> This may not have been in question form but it's there nonetheless.


Your STATEMENT previously is what prompted the following, of which you replied with the above. You get what you ask for here. At least be man enough to admit your initial intentions! Its ok to change your mind later and decide you really wish to be a contributing member, contributing doesnt have to equal "educating" either....asking honest questions in an honest manor is every bit the contribution as the one taking there time to educate!

So lets try this again......If you REALLY want an answer to something.... then ask the question you want an answer to! Fair enough?


----------



## Lyferxb9s

Why is accounting for impedance rise not worth doing?


----------



## duro78

A lot of top competitors run theyre amps lower than the recommended ohm load. Doesnt affect performance whatsoever. Granted its mainly done for burps but a lot of ppl do it for daily also. As long as they have the electrical to back it up and the amp is capable of doing it why not. Ive never personally done it but read about it all the time but of course its a lot more popular on the spl side.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rexroadj

Lyferxb9s said:


> Why is accounting for impedance rise not worth doing?


Good question! Thank you for asking it! Seeing as how we have a speaker engineer/designer on board, hopefully he can chime in with the specifics 

Thank you for your service as well!


----------



## Lyferxb9s

Yes, I read and see a lot of people doing it that is why I asked about it. I've done it several times in the past but Since grizz went off on a Tangent about dampening and stuff I thought maybe there was more to the story.


----------



## rexroadj

Lyferxb9s said:


> Yes, I read and see a lot of people doing it that is why I asked about it. I've done it several times in the past but Since grizz went off on a Tangent about dampening and stuff I thought maybe there was more to the story.


I personally have never heard any thing legitimately about it? But I'm all ears. If I'm reading the question in the terms you mean then I think I understand why its irrelevant (not meant as it sounds in regards to your question!).


----------



## rugdnit

Lyferxb9s said:


> Has anyone put them amps through the ringer yet? Anyone run the mono's at .5ohm daily?


Personally I think this is a great idea. I honestly don't know why Grizz has a stick up his ass about it. Go for it. Make sure to report your findings back to us as well.


----------



## pjf1fan

Grizz Archer said:


> Would love that! Quick funny story, I got kicked out of titty bar for NOT touching the girls. They said ai was disrespectful because I did not like the women! WTF?! In the states, they have several 300 pound meathead bouncer to break your arms if you even try. True story from 1996. lol


True freedom is wonderful


----------



## Grizz Archer

Lyferxb9s said:


> It's this weird thing called Impedance rise.


You are kidding, right? How do you know about impedance rise if you do not understand the very basic of Audio 101? Do you think that manufacturers do not know that there are people who do not know how to use audio equipment and will abuse everything? Of course they all know, but there has to be an assumption that people will use their head and do what is right. If an amp was stable at 1/2 ohm safely, the company would rate it as such. If you want to go against the manufacturer's suggestions, it is because you do not know the consequences. But to most people, reliability, safe operating temperature, and sound quality are pretty important. Many woofers come in two different impedance variations, otherwise, their are a gazillion other woofers. So the obvious thing to do is buy the right freaking woofer(s), or buy the right freaking amp. Not a tough concept...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Lyferxb9s said:


> How about instead of that someone Educate me on why accounting for impedance rise isn't worth doing. I joined this forum to learn, I ask questions for a reason. Not to stir up **** but because I don't know everything there Slick.


Asking a question is a humble act. Maybe it was just your tone. Man, I have been in the industry for 29 years and doen alot of cool ****. But I am not afraid to humbly come on here and ask for guidance or answers. I can engineer woofers, but not amplifiers, so I use the forum for help. Sarcastic remarks like yours are fine, but not as a question, imho... Humility is always respected...


----------



## Grizz Archer

duro78 said:


> A lot of top competitors run theyre amps lower than the recommended ohm load. Doesnt affect performance whatsoever. Granted its mainly done for burps but a lot of ppl do it for daily also. As long as they have the electrical to back it up and the amp is capable of doing it why not. Ive never personally done it but read about it all the time but of course its a lot more popular on the spl side.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


I am going to respectfully disagree with you. Of course it affects performance. Everything that changes affects performance. Just because the amp doe snot blow up, that does not mean performance is not affected. Surely, the amp will try to put out more power. And if we are talking about a test tone burp, the good guys know exactly what their impedance rise is. While nobody recommends this, people do it all the time, myself included. But that is always done on big SPL amplifiers, never everyday moderate amplifiers. Never a good idea.

As to your "why not", my answer is because it is not good for the amplifier. Would I do it if I knew the amplifier would blow up? Sure, as long as I had a back up and it made a worthy difference in my score. But I would never advise somebody to do it. I have not had to buy audio products for 17 years (Thank God! But I may have to buy something soon, and it is killing me!). But for for most people that buy their products, they should be advised against loading down the amplifier. The way I see it, either they know how to do it and when it is "okay", or they should not be doing it. You have to be a serious, knowledgeable competitor to benefit from this. Hell, I normally use home audio drivers in my vehicles and wire my amps to 8 ohms. Why? Because many home audio drivers are superior to car audio, in some cases less expensive, my amps run nice and cool, I have a low noise floor, higher damping, etc... 

I have a great idea, we need to make car audio products like Garanimals!! ROTFLMFAO!!! If you are not laughing, you are either a young punk or simply unaware of Garanimals. Here is the Wikipedia description:

_Garanimals is the name of a line of children's clothing separates, started in 1972 by Garan Incorporated. Each item of clothing features a hang-tag depicting one of several anthropomorphic animal characters, also called Garanimals. The philosophy behind Garanimals is that by making it easy for children to choose coordinated outfits by themselves (by choosing pieces with matching hang-tags), children gain self-confidence._

Oh man, I am laughing so hard right now. So what do you guys think about this idea - stop rating thing by impedance and stability, and make 4 ohm a Giraffe, 2 ohm a Hippopotamus, 1 ohm a Platypus, 1/2 ohm a Dodo Bird, etc?! If you buy a Hippo amp, you can only use a Hippo sub or two Platypus subs! Oh ****, I think I am going to pee myself! Anybody have any idea what I am talking about here?! LOL If not, who cares, that was some funny **** right there...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rugdnit said:


> Personally I think this is a great idea. I honestly don't know why Grizz has a stick up his ass about it. Go for it. Make sure to report your findings back to us as well.


Cute - tell the guy to do it and blow up his amp. Great advice man. Why don't you do it if you think it is a great idea. The idea is to help people here, not het them to do your dirty research. Be cool to the people that ask questions, not a dick and give them bad advice...


----------



## Lyferxb9s

Tons of amps are not rated at .5 or even .13 and run fine. Typical rise is 2-4X's so even at .13 I'll be playing, usually at 1/4ohm or above. Starting at .5, rising to 2ohm VS starting at 1ohm and rising to 4+ is the issue.


----------



## Darth SQ

Lyferxb9s said:


> Tons of amps are not rated at .5 or even .13 and run fine. Typical rise is 2-4X's so even at .13 I'll be playing, usually at 1/4ohm or above. Starting at .5, rising to 2ohm VS starting at 1ohm and rising to 4+ is the issue.


Buddy, it's clear you are in the wrong forum.
You need to go to CACO where SPL is king.
SQ guys just don't do what you're asking about.


Oh, and Rex is right to mention a big thanks for your service to this country.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> I am going to respectfully disagree with you. Of course it affects performance. Everything that changes affects performance. Just because the amp doe snot blow up, that does not mean performance is not affected. Surely, the amp will try to put out more power. And if we are talking about a test tone burp, the good guys know exactly what their impedance rise is. While nobody recommends this, people do it all the time, myself included. But that is always done on big SPL amplifiers, never everyday moderate amplifiers. Never a good idea.
> 
> As to your "why not", my answer is because it is not good for the amplifier. Would I do it if I knew the amplifier would blow up? Sure, as long as I had a back up and it made a worthy difference in my score. But I would never advise somebody to do it. I have not had to buy audio products for 17 years (Thank God! But I may have to buy something soon, and it is killing me!). But for for most people that buy their products, they should be advised against loading down the amplifier. The way I see it, either they know how to do it and when it is "okay", or they should not be doing it. You have to be a serious, knowledgeable competitor to benefit from this. Hell, I normally use home audio drivers in my vehicles and wire my amps to 8 ohms. Why? Because many home audio drivers are superior to car audio, in some cases less expensive, my amps run nice and cool, I have a low noise floor, higher damping, etc...
> 
> *I have a great idea, we need to make car audio products like Garanimals!! ROTFLMFAO!!! If you are not laughing, you are either a young punk or simply unaware of Garanimals. Here is the Wikipedia description:
> 
> Garanimals is the name of a line of children's clothing separates, started in 1972 by Garan Incorporated. Each item of clothing features a hang-tag depicting one of several anthropomorphic animal characters, also called Garanimals. The philosophy behind Garanimals is that by making it easy for children to choose coordinated outfits by themselves (by choosing pieces with matching hang-tags), children gain self-confidence.
> 
> Oh man, I am laughing so hard right now. So what do you guys think about this idea - stop rating thing by impedance and stability, and make 4 ohm a Giraffe, 2 ohm a Hippopotamus, 1 ohm a Platypus, 1/2 ohm a Dodo Bird, etc?! If you buy a Hippo amp, you can only use a Hippo sub or two Platypus subs! Oh ****, I think I am going to pee myself! Anybody have any idea what I am talking about here?! LOL If not, who cares, that was some funny **** right there..*.



It's now my new sig. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## 07azhhr

I am 39 and never heard of those things but thanks for the history lesson Grizz :laugh:.

I ran a RF power series amp at the next halved ohm load then it was rated for. I had fans blowing across it and thought it would be fine since I had added the extra cooling. Nope, it took a dump on me after a couple months. RF did repair it for me for free but I made sure not to wire it that way once I got it back. For me it was a lesson learned.


----------



## Bayboy

I just don't get it....  If someone needs to pull the extra juice why not just get a more powerful amp? Is this something new? Perhaps that's why I still have dinosaur amps.... they never blow.


----------



## rexroadj

07azhhr said:


> I am 39 and never heard of those things but thanks for the history lesson Grizz :laugh:.
> 
> I ran a RF power series amp at the next halved ohm load then it was rated for. I had fans blowing across it and thought it would be fine since I had added the extra cooling. Nope, it took a dump on me after a couple months. RF did repair it for me for free but I made sure not to wire it that way once I got it back. For me it was a lesson learned.


Excellent story...and very related!

There was a time when a lot of amps could do just that..... Now its not only not needed, but its not practical for the market. That was a time when it was all about cone area How many subs can you run, thats going to drop your ohm load a TON. Now its how big is the throw of a woofer, how much wattage can I give it, and not destroy my mini honda electrical system! Thats the market! 
You want a 1/2ohm stable amp go look for some of the cool old school amps or ones specifically designed for that application. Why on earth would someone spend there money to do something that the manufacturer is telling you not to do with that specific item? Where is there any logic in that. Do I beat the piss out of some of the things I review? YES, but that doesnt mean going beyond what they tell me its capable of or meant for. Thats just dumb! 

If someone wants to ask a specific question regarding technical reasons why something does or does not work under specific conditions...thats great! But I dont think that is what was asked here, at all! 

This isnt rocket science! Its common sense ya'll!


----------



## rexroadj

Bayboy said:


> I just don't get it....  If someone needs to pull the extra juice why not just get a more powerful amp? Is this something new? Perhaps that's why I still have dinosaur amps.... they never blow.


Its the opposite! ITS OLD!!!! Orion HCCA, Rockford waffle maker old! Cool and fun, but not really relative to now. Educate on what your needs are and purchase accordingly....the end!


----------



## Bayboy

rexroadj said:


> Its the opposite! ITS OLD!!!! Orion HCCA, Rockford waffle maker old! Cool and fun, but not really relative to now. Educate on what your needs are and purchase accordingly....the end!


Oh lawd... not that crazy mess from eons ago. I remember the Orion cheater amp days.... load them down for extra grilling heat. Didn't think anyone would do that in a daily driver though. I digress.... never was into that.


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> It's now my new sig. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Hilarious!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Does anybody make "High Current" OS style amps anymore that are rated for 1ohm stereo or whatever? That is the alternative to Garanimals. But then we have the problem we did 15 years ago - they buy one of these amps and then run it a 4 ohm stereo on components and winder why they do not get any power. 

Garanimals - the key to less failures! Just sayin'...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Orrrrrr, since alot of us are older, maybe use stripper names like Coco, Candy, etc instead of animal names. lol


----------



## Bayboy

Grizz Archer said:


> Does anybody make "High Current" OS style amps anymore that are rated for 1ohm stereo or whatever? That is the alternative to Garanimals. But then we have the problem we did 15 years ago - they buy one of these amps and then run it a 4 ohm stereo on components and winder why they do not get any power.
> 
> Garanimals - the key to less failures! Just sayin'...


I'm sure there has to be some amps out there that are made for that but I don't think the youngsters would enjoy not pushing gear beyond it's rated capabilities. I'm more fascinated with raw drivers which happen to be 4 ohms & up. Have been that way for years, but what do I know...


----------



## rexroadj

Rockford power series, boston acoustics gt, are just two that I have used recently that come to mind.....1ohm stereo......no, I didnt use them that way but I did run them 2ohm mono with great results. Wouldnt exactly consider it "old school" style though. They do what they say they will.....there not rated 25x4 etc... Not current hogs and while they may get a little roasty, your not going to substitute them for grills like the older stuff. All they are is very versatile imo!


----------



## subwoofery

1 sub, 1 amp
You need more power... 
... then buy another sub that let's you use the lowest "recommended" load 
You need even more power? 
... then buy another amp and power the second sub with it 
You need again more power? 
... Sell both amps and buy a bigger one 
It never ends but you need more power? 
... buy another amp, use a HO alternator and buy a few batteries then buy more amps and batteries 

How difficult is it to understand? Power is cheap nowadays
If you care about longevity, don't use an amp below what it's recommended for 

Kelvin


----------



## rexroadj

^ Thanks Mom!^

but that does pretty much cover it huh?


----------



## tnbubba

DESIRE!!!!rotflmao


----------



## rugdnit

rexroadj said:


> Rockford power series, boston acoustics gt, are just two that I have used recently that come to mind.....1ohm stereo......no, I didnt use them that way but I did run them 2ohm mono with great results. Wouldnt exactly consider it "old school" style though. They do what they say they will.....there not rated 25x4 etc... Not current hogs and while they may get a little roasty, your not going to substitute them for grills like the older stuff. All they are is very versatile imo!


That is why I loaded up my closet full of those GT's. I have no intention of running them at 2 ohm mono. Nice to know you have the flexibility, but prefer the SQ and less stress.


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> 1 sub, 1 amp
> You need more power...
> ... then buy another sub that let's you use the lowest "recommended" load
> You need even more power?
> ... then buy another amp and power the second sub with it
> You need again more power?
> ... Sell both amps and buy a bigger one
> It never ends but you need more power?
> ... buy another amp, use a HO alternator and buy a few batteries then buy more amps and batteries
> 
> How difficult is it to understand? Power is cheap nowadays
> If you care about longevity, don't use an amp below what it's recommended for
> 
> Kelvin


Funny, I remember the old days when we would put 12-24+ subs (literally) on one small amp, just to show how powerful it was. Never had an impedance problem, ever. Maybe we need to make every member re-register, but only after they complete a verbal interview so there is no opportunity to cheat. And if they do not know much but are cool, humble cats that just want to learn, fine. That is what we are hear for anyway - to learn and help...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Now appearing in the Champagne Lounge....Brandi!!!
She goes dddooooowwwnnnnn......to 1 ohm!


----------



## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> Now appearing in the Champagne Lounge....Brandi!!!
> She goes dddooooowwwnnnnn......to 1 ohm!



LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PERFECT!

Also like those old school amps...... Still feel guilty about spending that much cash!


----------



## Darth SQ

rexroadj said:


> Excellent story...and very related!
> 
> There was a time when a lot of amps could do just that..... Now its not only not needed, but its not practical for the market. That was a time when it was all about cone area How many subs can you run, thats going to drop your ohm load a TON. Now its how big is the throw of a woofer, how much wattage can I give it, and not destroy my mini honda electrical system! Thats the market!
> You want a 1/2ohm stable amp go look for some of the cool old school amps or ones specifically designed for that application. Why on earth would someone spend there money to do something that the manufacturer is telling you not to do with that specific item? Where is there any logic in that. Do I beat the piss out of some of the things I review? YES, but that doesnt mean going beyond what they tell me its capable of or meant for. Thats just dumb!
> 
> If someone wants to ask a specific question regarding technical reasons why something does or does not work under specific conditions...thats great! But I dont think that is what was asked here, at all!
> 
> This isnt rocket science! Its common sense ya'll!


Those amps were from a different time and came about when car audio competition rules created their existence.
For example, you could compete in the 0-50 watt class with one Orion 2x25 (50watts total) and get the equivilant of 400+ watts by running it at 1 ohm or less. 
That's where the term "cheater amps" originated from.
Three years ago when I jumped back into this hobby, I was relieved that all that wattage class b.s. was over with.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> Orrrrrr, since alot of us are older, maybe use stripper names like Coco, Candy, etc instead of animal names. lol


Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus, etc......

Yes I watch way too much South Park.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## The Reverend

My Soundstream TN600.2 gets HOT (i'd guess 130F, almost too hot to touch) without any load attached. I just installed it behind my pass seat last week. Powers up, no thermal protection, ground is good, the TN900.4 below it is just fine, cool and collected. I haven't tested either with speakers yet. 

Any ideas?


----------



## BKJT05

didnt read any of this thread, but i just ordered a PPI amp for my budget system to go along with the PPI components i also ordered, along with the PPI sub. haha. i wanted to go with ID stuff, but im at the age where my 2 year old is more important, yet couldnt go to walmart and buy real budget stuff

i will be back to post reviews in a week or so


----------



## Koalas

I just received my 900.4 today!

After removing it and getting past that "new electronic scent" (im not sure why I love that, but I digress), I noticed that the rear RCA inputs are crooked. They sit at an angle, towards the edge of the amp. It makes connecting the RCA's a little difficult, and I'm not sure it's a good thing at all.

Anyone else have this issue?


----------



## vh5150

Was looking at the PPI Phantom p900.5. Anyone have an opinion on the PPI vs the Fosgate Punch P1000X5D as far as SQ, build quality, flexibility, etc.? Thanks for any info.


----------



## KillerBox

vh5150 said:


> Was looking at the PPI Phantom p900.5. Anyone have an opinion on the PPI vs the Fosgate Punch P1000X5D as far as SQ, build quality, flexibility, etc.? Thanks for any info.


I installed a PPI P900.4 & P1000.1 in my sons truck about a year ago. They are tough little amps. Never get hot, plenty of power, very flexible and small.

That being said, I couldn't find a P900.5 for my father install in his 1956 Chevy. So I found a Punch P1000x5D on sale for $250.00 and I bought it. I haven't installed it yet but, from the outside the amp seems to be better designed.

It is minor things but, I didn't like how PPI designed the terminals on the Phantoms. You can't get a screwdriver straight into them. And the screws seem cheaper so they are easy to strip trying to tighten them. All that being said, I would buy another Phantom though.


----------



## JAX

I think the 5 channel Rockford cost more (not that it makes a real difference) but I saw the rf 5 channel for less than $300 on sale . If I were buying one or the other I would seriously consider the rf. 


I installed a ppi 900.4 & 1000.1. In buddies truck. Was fine most of the time. Certain music was harsh. But I think it was the music and the tweets.


----------



## trumpet

KillerBox said:


> That being said, I couldn't find a P900.5 for my father install in his 1956 Chevy.


You didn't find one because they're not available yet. I'm waiting one week at a time hoping they will show up so I can place my order.


----------



## RoyalBlue08

ive had the PPI black ice bk800.4 for almost a year now and I absolutely love it. very good sound clarity and never EVER ran hot.


----------



## Bayboy

RoyalBlue08 said:


> ive had the PPI black ice bk800.4 for almost a year now and I absolutely love it. very good sound clarity and never EVER ran hot.


How is it configured?


----------



## RoyalBlue08

Bayboy said:


> How is it configured?


I have my hybrid imagines on it. midwoofer on bandpass and tweets on high pass around 3khz crossed the mids im tweaking always on the frequency. around 130 watts for the mids. but I just bought a crescendo concerto c1100.4 amp that I plan on switching up soon so I might either sell my PPI amp or keep it idk I really like it a lot. or trade it for a 2 channel amp


----------



## krisfnbz

gregerst22 said:


> I bought the P900.4 and P1000.1 amps a month or two back and somebody asked be to post my experience with them. Since they were installed we've had some pretty frigid below zero temps up here in MN and they've performed like champs. I also run them at least an hour or more a day during my commute to and from work. So far I have had no problems or complaints. The amps feel heavy, well built and solid. They seem to push rated power without any noise or pop that I can detect.
> 
> If I wanted to nit-pick there are a few areas that could use improvement.
> 1- If you are using a HU with low preamp voltage you may need to have the gain turned up more than you like.
> 2- The pots for crossover, gains don't have any markings between low/high which makes adjustments more difficult then it needs to be.
> 3- The bass boost knob is very plasticky and feels cheap. Here's a tip for PPI. Just because it's a knob don't skimp on the quality, make the part of your product that the consumer may touch and use everyday feel very solid and well built and it will go a long way toward improving the perception of your products and your brand image.
> 4- The 900.4 doesn't have any markings to indicate which terminals to use for bridging and the manuals for both amps are pretty sparse and a bit lacking. Compare to Polks manuals which are basically the same amps. Much, much better and professional. The downloadable manual from PPI looks like they were scanned hastily on a cheap photocopier and saved as a PDF. That's pretty bad IMO. Again it's brand perception and image. Btw I actually needed to email support to find out exactly which terminals I should use to bridge the 900.4 with, but on the upside they got back to me with an answer within a day.
> 5- A personal preference, but the gold/black color scheme looks cheap and fugly imo.
> 
> But like I said I'm pretty happy with the performance of the amps especially considering the low street price. The first 3 quibbles are non-issues when using a DSP. The last doesn't really bother me either bc I have the amps hidden.


Which terminals to bridge the amp? I thought usually its the outside ones?


----------



## rexroadj

krisfnbz said:


> Which terminals to bridge the amp? I thought usually its the outside ones?


Some amps are different....sometimes its the inside two....sometimes its staggered....I've seen them all? Most common is the outside ones I would say


----------



## PPI_GUY

I keep hearing that the Phantoms sound just fine but, the control integration and cosmetics leave alot to be desired. The proliferation of the boards used (also by Polk, NVX, Nak and others) leads me to believe they are fairly easy to construct and probably pretty affordable from the manufacturing side. That doesn't mean they are "cheap junk" but, I always notice little things like some posters have mentioned. RCA integrity (tiffany's are much better), control knob feel and easy of use. These issues seem to pop up regularly with the Phantoms.


----------



## 07azhhr

PPI_GUY said:


> The proliferation of the boards used (also by Polk, NVX, Nak and others) leads me to believe they are fairly easy to construct and probably pretty affordable from the manufacturing side.


Each board seems to have several design options giving each company the option of making theirs kinda sorta unique to them if they want. The markings or lack there of for the PPI x-over points seems to be a cost saving option. But a silly one IMHO since they have the bandpass feature to allow for active use. They really should add those and also make sure that the pots are correct for the suggested x-over points if they are infact off like some have reported.


----------



## ZAKOH

07azhhr said:


> Each board seems to have several design options giving each company the option of making theirs kinda sorta unique to them if they want. The markings or lack there of for the PPI x-over points seems to be a cost saving option.


Those are not marked on the more expensive PPI PC amplifiers either. I wouldn't rely on the markings anyways. One could find the crossover dial position quite precisely with a test tone and DMM. The wattage output at the desired frequency should be half of the baseline. For the 4ohm speaker, this means approximately 70% AC voltage drop on the speaker wire? use the formula V = sqrt(W*R)


When it comes to crossovers, I have only one general complaint, and it applies to almost all. Why can't we have have a subwoofer amplifier that allows me to turn off ALL crossovers. Point. Most head units have a passable low pass crossover selection. I'd rather set subwoofer LP on the head unit than deal with the lousy amplifier crossovers. I swear, every time I heard alternator noise, it's after adding an amplifier that can't turn off its damn crossover functions. In fact, PPI and Soundstream are pretty big offenders here because you can't turn off the crossovers on their high end amplifiers, not even on full range channels.


----------



## ZAKOH

RoyalBlue08 said:


> I have my hybrid imagines on it. midwoofer on bandpass and tweets on high pass around 3khz crossed the mids im tweaking always on the frequency. around 130 watts for the mids. but I just bought a crescendo concerto c1100.4 amp that I plan on switching up soon so I might either sell my PPI amp or keep it idk I really like it a lot. or trade it for a 2 channel amp



3khz may be too low for Image tweeters. I would expect some harshness in the upper mid-range. With this amplifier, I would set the HP at the maximum possible setting, which is 4KHz? They seem to sound fine with 6.3KHz HP in my car using head unit's crossover.


----------



## ZAKOH

PPI_GUY said:


> I keep hearing that the Phantoms sound just fine but, the control integration and cosmetics leave alot to be desired. The proliferation of the boards used (also by Polk, NVX, Nak and others) leads me to believe they are fairly easy to construct and probably pretty affordable from the manufacturing side. That doesn't mean they are "cheap junk" but, I always notice little things like some posters have mentioned.



I think low prices simply indicate technological progress. We have massive improvements in TV and LCD technology compared to 10 years ago, computer processor power and efficiency doubling every few years, car engines getting more efficient year by year, etc, yet we still can't have a nice clean 4x100watt amplifier for a reasonable price? Why can't we have the same in audio electronics? We can have a $300 cell phone that's more powerful than a laptop from 10 years ago, yet we can't have a reasonably priced DSP for a car? It seems car audio industry is moving much slower.

As for aesthetics, this is almost silly. Unless it's a show vehicle, just install the amp, and forget it. I can't even see my PPI amp the way its installed. Not that I mind its enclosure color.


----------



## 07azhhr

ZAKOH said:


> As for aesthetics, this is almost silly. Unless it's a show vehicle, just install the amp, and forget it. I can't even see my PPI amp the way its installed. Not that I mind its enclosure color.


 
So because I don't show my car I shouldn't care how things look? :laugh: I guess I am wasting time and money when I wash it right? Too funny.


----------



## JAX

well I dont know about you guys as I dont use the xover on the amps most of the time but the dials on the phantom are crammed in there and pretty much not useful to set the xovers . other amps may be better in that regard. the screws are pretty soft i thought. 

like it was said, how much would a set of tiffany jacks add? not that much and would make it much sturdier. for the money they are still pretty good. I just know for a little more or less on sale there are other options with better controls.


----------



## rexroadj

Hysterical! What more do you people want for the money? Some of you guys just make me sick!

It has an xover......a good one...is it detailed in the markers? NO, are most? NO, could you even fit something that even makes sense in most cases? NO. But there are ways to use it accurately...... so F'ing do it!

Would tiffany style jacks be nice.....dear god yes! if the amps went up another $15 people would blow a ****ing gasket though......listen/read most of this ****! You have to be kidding me? Look at the damn price....then HONESTLY ***** about the power/features. Jesus! what do companies have to do????? Zapco amps at pyramid prices........ AINT HAPPENING! Pick your poison and shop accordingly. 


Sorry, what a waste of like 35 pages with this vomit!


----------



## trojan fan

Who pissed in your cheerios?.....LOL!


----------



## 07azhhr

rexroadj said:


> Hysterical! What more do you people want for the money? Some of you guys just make me sick!
> 
> It has an xover......a good one...is it detailed in the markers? NO, are most? NO, could you even fit something that even makes sense in most cases? NO. But there are ways to use it accurately...... so F'ing do it!
> 
> Would tiffany style jacks be nice.....dear god yes! if the amps went up another $15 people would blow a ****ing gasket though......listen/read most of this ****! You have to be kidding me? Look at the damn price....then HONESTLY ***** about the power/features. Jesus! what do companies have to do????? Zapco amps at pyramid prices........ AINT HAPPENING! Pick your poison and shop accordingly.
> 
> 
> Sorry, what a waste of like 35 pages with this vomit!


A waste of 35 pages . I don't see how a couple comments about the xover translates to 35 pages worth of vomit . Can you remind me on how many of these 35 pages we will find you posting? Heck you have 4 or more on this page alone :laugh:.


EDIT:Ok 4 or more on the last page lol.


----------



## RoyalBlue08

ZAKOH said:


> I think low prices simply indicate technological progress. We have massive improvements in TV and LCD technology compared to 10 years ago, computer processor power and efficiency doubling every few years, car engines getting more efficient year by year, etc, yet we still can't have a nice clean 4x100watt amplifier for a reasonable price? Why can't we have the same in audio electronics? We can have a $300 cell phone that's more powerful than a laptop from 10 years ago, yet we can't have a reasonably priced DSP for a car? It seems car audio industry is moving much slower.
> 
> As for aesthetics, this is almost silly. Unless it's a show vehicle, just install the amp, and forget it. I can't even see my PPI amp the way its installed. Not that I mind its enclosure color.


so when I cross them at 4 I can barely hear the tweeters, would I just turn the gain up higher?


----------



## PPI_GUY

gregerst22 said:


> My take on the Phantoms is we got the cake, and it tastes good, but there's no icing. lol Like I mentioned earlier I think they're great amps for the money and ideal if your're using a DSP where all you need from them is cheap, clean, effecient class d power.


I can see most of those points. They seem to be 'almost there' but, not quite, if that makes any sense. 
I'd love to see a side by side comparison between the Phantoms and the JL XD line. I've used the XD400/4 and 600/1 and loved them. But, have only the reviews of the Phantoms here and elsewhere online to form some sort of opinion with.
Nobody is really making exactly what I want in a small footprint.I'd like a/b power for the comps and class D for the sub section. JBL makes a version in their EZ series that is close...

JBL GTO-5EZ 5-channel car amplifier — 50 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 500 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield.com


----------



## Bayboy

The JBL is quite alluring despite the lack of extra crossover features. Paired up with the 504EZ or 804EZ would make a nice setup for 4-way with enough power configurations to please most drivers. Downfalls are limited xovers again though.


----------



## rugdnit

PPI_GUY said:


> I can see most of those points. They seem to be 'almost there' but, not quite, if that makes any sense.
> I'd love to see a side by side comparison between the Phantoms and the JL XD line. I've used the XD400/4 and 600/1 and loved them. But, have only the reviews of the Phantoms here and elsewhere online to form some sort of opinion with.
> Nobody is really making exactly what I want in a small footprint.I'd like a/b power for the comps and class D for the sub section. JBL makes a version in their EZ series that is close...
> 
> JBL GTO-5EZ 5-channel car amplifier — 50 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 500 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield.com


I really like the layout of that amp. Not exactly the power configurations, but the layout is sweet.


----------



## rton20s

It doesn't have a Class A/B front stage, but the new Phoenix Gold TI21600.5 does have a nice combination of power and footprint. Unfortunately it is so new, I don't think they have released pricing information. Much less had any reviews done. 

TI21600.5 - 1600 Watt 5 Channel Amplifier - Phoenix Gold


----------



## Bayboy

I've seen that advertised a while back. Figured it would be available by now.  But it does have a good & strong power ratio.


----------



## ZAKOH

PPI_GUY said:


> Nobody is really making exactly what I want in a small footprint.I'd like a/b power for the comps and class D for the sub section. JBL makes a version in their EZ series that is close...


I have taken this route, but I don't think I'll do it again unless the amplifier has an internal fan. I use MB Quart REF4.80 for active fronts. You can still find these sold online. It's very small and I saw one test showing very clean power generation with very low distortion and actual output being at 4x110watt RMS at 4ohm. I have it installed sideways on a board with good airflow around it. The front speakers sound great, but it runs _very_ hot during the summer with 100F temps outside even though all channels are running with 4ohm drivers: two are tweeters and other two are highly efficient woofers (Hybrid Audio Imagine). If I have some cargo in trunk that blocks the air flow, it can shut down pretty easily from heat.

I have rearranged things a bit in the trunk for now, but if it starts overheating this summer, I am replacing it with a different compact 4-channel. I haven't decided which one. I am probably not getting a A/B amp again. I am looking at Kenwood X450, Alpine MRX-F65, MRP-F300, and PPI P900.4. From what I hear, Alpine MRX amps are exceptionally good for the money. Very good power, with low noise and distortion.


----------



## rton20s

Zakoh, you might already be aware, but MB Quart is also releasing a new line of full range class D amps called Reference Mykro. 

MB QUART MYKRO AMPLIFIERS ARE HUGE! | 12 Volt News


----------



## ZAKOH

rton20s said:


> Zamia, you might already be aware, but MB Quart is also releasing a new line of full range class D amps called Reference Mykro.
> 
> MB QUART MYKRO AMPLIFIERS ARE HUGE! | 12 Volt News



I was kind of expecting that MB Quart will come up with a new product. Sonicelectronix.com says that almost every full range MB Quart amplifier has been discontinued (REF4.80, ONX4.125, Q4.80, Q4.150, etc all were decent Class A/B amps for their price). Clearly, we will see more Class D gear in future.


----------



## ZAKOH

The PDF issue of Russian Avtozvuk.com tested a bunch of mono amplifiers, including PPI Black Ice BK1800.1d. They test the power output of the mono amplifiers using a 12.5V battery at 1%THD. They got: 475watts at 4ohm. 765watts at 2ohm. The watt output with 14.4V battery is probably 25-30% more. The factory rating is 700/1100/1800.

Looking at these figures, this is not a lot better (at 4ohm and 2ohm) than the PPI P1000.1, if it's underrated as Grizz claimed.


----------



## alachua

Anyone have any word on the availability of the PPI/Soundstream 5 channel phantom/nano amps? I'd really like to get a pair (possibly trio) of these, but can't pull the trigger until I know I can get the multichannel.


----------



## zql8tr

The TN5.950D's are in stock.


----------



## alachua

zql8tr said:


> The TN5.950D's are in stock.


Thats great to hear. Who is the authorized internet retailer for SoundStream?


----------



## zql8tr

Onlinecarstereo.com is the only authorized retailer.


----------



## alachua

FYI, got the notification from Sonic that the PPI 900.5 is in stock as of today:

Precision Power PPI P900.5 (p9005) 5-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier


----------



## captainobvious

alachua said:


> FYI, got the notification from Sonic that the PPI 900.5 is in stock as of today:
> 
> Precision Power PPI P900.5 (p9005) 5-Channel Phantom Car Amplifier


 
Well that figures...one week after I picked up a 5 channel for an install.


----------



## alachua

captainobvious said:


> Well that figures...one week after I picked up a 5 channel for an install.


If it's any consolation, I got the email one week after my car got hit 450 miles from home.

Also, it appears DIYMA did some stupid editing on my link:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_38339_Precision-Power-PPI-P900.5.html


----------



## thewatusi

Does anyone know if these amps will accept a 4awg power wire? The manual states to use 8awg but it's a pretty crappy manual so I figured I'd ask.


----------



## trumpet

thewatusi said:


> Does anyone know if these amps will accept a 4awg power wire? The manual states to use 8awg but it's a pretty crappy manual so I figured I'd ask.


They will all take 4 ga power and ground wire.


----------



## thewatusi

Thanks!

Going to order a 900.5 and give it a go. $229 shipped from onlinecarstereo


----------



## SkipNJ

Just received my P900.5 in the mail, obviously the best thing to do first was to take it apart.


































I apologize if the picture quality isn't great these are cell phone pics.

I'm hoping it will do what I need it to. The stock system gets just loud enough, but not very clean or balanced sounding. I need this setup to play cleanly with a little more headroom at that same volume and I will be happy.


----------



## helmetface00

SkipNJ said:


> Just received my P900.5 in the mail, obviously the best thing to do first was to take it apart.
> 
> I apologize if the picture quality isn't great these are cell phone pics.
> 
> I'm hoping it will do what I need it to. The stock system gets just loud enough, but not very clean or balanced sounding. I need this setup to play cleanly with a little more headroom at that same volume and I will be happy.


Any thoughts as to why it doesn't sound too "clean" ?

Just a tuning matter at this point?


----------



## captainobvious

What is your flow from signal all the way to speakers? Are you using a stock cd player?


----------



## SkipNJ

helmetface00 said:


> Any thoughts as to why it doesn't sound too "clean" ?
> 
> Just a tuning matter at this point?


I dont have anything installed yet. I'm assuming the stock system doesn't sound clean because the cheap woofer in the door and the tweeter in the sail panel have no crossovers other than a resister on the tweeter, there's no deadening, and theyre powered with 17 watts from the stock HU. I will begin installing everything hopefully this weekend or next. Wiring first, then deadening, then HU, amp and speakers, then enclosure and sub.


----------



## edzyy

phantoms are by far my fav bang for buck amps on the market right now

Hopefully PPI continues to make them

Car audio companies usually have a habit of discontinuing "hot" items


----------



## rton20s

I wouldn't worry too much about it. If PPI stops, Soundstream might still have it. If they both stop, there is always NVX. And if those go away, you still have Polk... and Hertz... and Nakamichi... and whoever else decides they want to use that build house's design. (Tinly, I think.)


----------



## thewatusi

My 900.5 finally got here and I need some help bridging it. Unfortunately the manual is worthless and ppi did not respond to my email.

I saw a few posts ago someone mentioned the proper speaker connections, but how do I hook up the rca cables? (just into channel 1/2 or split them). How to set the selector switch?

Thanks


----------



## thewatusi

thewatusi said:


> My 900.5 finally got here and I need some help bridging it. Unfortunately the manual is worthless and ppi did not respond to my email.
> 
> I saw a few posts ago someone mentioned the proper speaker connections, but how do I hook up the rca cables? (just into channel 1/2 or split them). How to set the selector switch?
> 
> Thanks



Bueller? Bueller?


----------



## Pulse_GTO

What a read. Lots of good information here. Now if Only I could find some SS Reference or PPI PC in stock somehwere. LOL.


----------



## Big T

Pulse_GTO said:


> What a read. Lots of good information here. Now if Only I could find some SS Reference or PPI PC in stock somehwere. LOL.



Both were discontuined I believe. The Phantom is the top of line PPI now


----------



## 07azhhr

Big T said:


> Both were discontuined I believe. The Phantom is the top of line PPI now


 
What is it that makes you believe that the Phantoms are now the top of the line?


----------



## Big T

They discontinued the Power Class making Phntom their top of line...


----------



## Big T

Sorry Phantom


----------



## JAX

Big T said:


> They discontinued the Power Class making Phntom their top of line...


Wow...

Oh well I guess it's not a surprise. 

The specs on the power class were awesome. I never tried them and I couldn't find anyone on earth who did either but if they discontinued them then someone will be clearing some out sooner or later. 


Not particularly a fan of the phantom but sub amp makes good power..well.. Pushed a pair of tens to their max


----------



## Big T

I think the power class didn't sell well. They were great amps but I think the problem was cosmetics but that could have easily been fixed.









The Phantom is a great amp as well. My wife has Power Class in her car. I have phantoms in my truck. We both compeat SQ and sound is close


----------



## Pulse_GTO

I had a pair of PC amps on order with OCS, but called up and cancelled as the lady at customer service told me they where on back order. I ordered a AS REF5.1000 that should suit my needs. 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## JAX

Big T said:


> I think the power class didn't sell well. They were great amps but I think the problem was cosmetics but that could have easily been fixed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Phantom is a great amp as well. My wife has Power Class in her car. I have phantoms in my truck. We both compeat SQ and sound is close



so those are the new Power class? painted red.....now I want to see what they are going for these days...

the specs were some of the highest out there


----------



## 07azhhr

Big T said:


> They discontinued the Power Class making Phntom their top of line...


 Again though, why do you think that discontinuing the PC amps makes the Phantom the top of the line? Are there any statements from PPI that confirm this or is this just your opinion?


----------



## rton20s

07azhhr said:


> Again though, why do you think that discontinuing the PC amps makes the Phantom the top of the line? Are there any statements from PPI that confirm this or is this just your opinion?


These were the comments from [email protected] from the thread about the discontinuation of the Soundstream Reference amps. 



[email protected] said:


> Sorry guys we did discontinue the Reference line. We are working on something to replace it for 2015. As of right now the Tarantula Nano is and Rubicon will be our better SQ Amps. In fact the Tarantula Nano and a little brand that starts with a H and ends with an ertz, share the exact same pcb and components. So if your looking for a good quality amp and don't want to spend a fortune they are your best bet. It pained me to get rid of them but we had to. They just don't sell anymore.





[email protected] said:


> PPI Phantom and Soundstream TN amps are the same thing just different heat sinks. Guys one of our competitors is using Phantom amps and he wins everything he enters. So trust me they work and sound amazing.
> 
> Also yes it is true Powerclass is gone as well. It will be back....in 2015


----------



## bose301s

Were the Power Class and Reference basically the same amps just in different form factors? All of the other amps for PPI and SS seem to be the same, just different casing so I assumed these were the same as well.


----------



## rton20s

bose301s said:


> Were the Power Class and Reference basically the same amps just in different form factors? All of the other amps for PPI and SS seem to be the same, just different casing so I assumed these were the same as well.


I don't believe so. I think each was unique. However, I would not be surprised if the 2015 offerings from PPI and Soundstream end up sharing everything but the heatsink.


----------



## Big T

07azhhr said:


> Again though, why do you think that discontinuing the PC amps makes the Phantom the top of the line? Are there any statements from PPI that confirm this or is this just your opinion?



The lineage was
PowerClass
Phantom
Black ice
Sedona

The dropped power class leaves phantom top of the line.
Dropped Sedona and redesigned black ice to take its place
Made the Ion to be mid line
And I'm not sure if the atom will be between the ion and Black ice. Or under the black ice

Now the linage is

Phantom
Ion
Black Ice


----------



## W8 a minute

07azhhr said:


> Again though, why do you think that discontinuing the PC amps makes the Phantom the top of the line? Are there any statements from PPI that confirm this or is this just your opinion?


Pretty much a fact. Simple process of elimination.


----------



## Darth SQ

Big T said:


> The lineage was
> PowerClass
> Phantom
> Black ice
> Sedona
> 
> The dropped power class leaves phantom top of the line.
> Dropped Sedona and redesigned black ice to take its place
> Made the Ion to be mid line
> And I'm not sure if the atom will be between the ion and Black ice. Or under the black ice
> 
> Now the linage is
> 
> Phantom
> Ion
> Black Ice





W8 a minute said:


> Pretty much a fact. Simple process of elimination.


Is that how PPI has them?
The Black Ice was suppose to be the new Art line before all hell broke loose on DIYMA regarding the rights to the Artwork so that fell through and PPI did a quick fix and renamed them the Black Ice line.
I would have assumed that the Arts would have taken they're rightful spot of 2nd place under the PC amps.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Big T

I think the Last year Black Ice was the best looking amp they have made in years. The ones I have worked with are awsome. Plus they are AB. I have never got to a-b test them but everything I have been told by them is the Phantom it the top till they come out with a new power class.


----------



## Gary S

Lol, the Phantom are not top of the line... the Powerclass is being replaced... it's just like cars... the 2014 models are replaced with new 2015 models... chillax!


----------



## rton20s

Gary S said:


> Lol, the Phantom are not top of the line... the Powerclass is being replaced... it's just like cars... the 2014 models are replaced with new 2015 models... chillax!


Except, for right now. Finding the Power Class and Reference lines in 2014 is becoming more difficult. 

There were 2013 PPI Power Class and Soundstream Reference amps. They are not being offered for 2014 making the PPI Phantom and Soundstream Tarantula Nanos the "top of the line" offerings by default. 

Ryan has stated they are working on replacements for Power Class and Reference for 2015. If these make it to market (under whatever moniker), then the assumption is that these will become the new top tier offerings from the Epsilon brands.


----------



## vulgamore89

I really like my power class amps. PC400.4 and 1000.1. I actually really like the look of them as well. Are they big....yes but AB as well. Except the big 1000.1. Great crossovers also. And pretty sure they're underrated quite a bit. I'm hoping when the time comes to go 3 way I can find a 2 channel for midbass but now that they're discontinued its gonna be hard. Unless when they come back in 2015 they look relatively the same....but i doubt it


----------



## rton20s

What the heck... 

The new PC?


----------



## Big T

rton20s said:


> What the heck...
> 
> 
> 
> The new PC?



Where did that come from ?


----------



## Big T

Gary S said:


> Lol, the Phantom are not top of the line... the Powerclass is being replaced... it's just like cars... the 2014 models are replaced with new 2015 models... chillax!



Yes. For 2014 they are..


----------



## Bayboy

rton20s said:


> What the heck...
> 
> The new PC?




Clarion hybrid??


----------



## rton20s

Big T said:


> Where did that come from ?


The same place as this... 











Bayboy said:


> Clarion hybrid??


Zeff/Nikola design. Ubuy. 

Just running with what I started in the Reference discontinued thread.


----------



## 4thseason

I'm with bayboy sure looks like this


----------



## JAX

bose301s said:


> Were the Power Class and Reference basically the same amps just in different form factors? All of the other amps for PPI and SS seem to be the same, just different casing so I assumed these were the same as well.



they were never the same in the past and the specs were always different. I doubt they were the same at all. 

they were just big and not as appealing as the refs.


----------



## JAX

rton20s said:


> The same place as this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zeff/Nikola design. Ubuy.
> 
> Just running with what I started in the Reference discontinued thread.



wow..one of the best things about the ref amps were the wire terminals being recessed into the fram so that each was seperated and made for clean install and not a bunch of metal showing....I hate these amps now with the old spade connections crammed together.


why cant they just make a class D or GH amp with their old wire connection design?...

thats the same reason I havnt bought one of those little pioneer PRS amps to try out


----------



## Bayboy

I agree that it should be more diversity among manufacturers, but for some reason they opt to offering end caps of sorts. Guess it all depends on how you plan to install them. Seems more fitting to flush amp racks I suppose.


----------



## Bayboy

4thseason said:


> I'm with bayboy sure looks like this


It is... he's just fooling with photoshop. Looks good though.


----------



## Big T

Yea. Ryan said they didn't do that......I like the looks and the 6ch


----------



## Bayboy

I like the 6 channel as well, but not it's price at a whopping $400 considering it's preamp limitations. Not to mention no mono block offerings to match it's aesthetics.


----------



## trumpet

> Not to mention no mono block offerings to match it's aesthetics.


Just not offered in the US. There is a mono model for Canada.


----------



## Gary S

bose301s said:


> Were the Power Class and Reference basically the same amps just in different form factors? All of the other amps for PPI and SS seem to be the same, just different casing so I assumed these were the same as well.


 - They had the same close tolerances on the parts they used/same general quality, so yes, they are directly comparable. 

In short, although I like the layout of the reference amps, with all terminals and controls on one side... since the Power class amps seemed to go for lower street prices, I would opt for power Class amps since they are a better bang for the buck.


----------



## GTOhaas07

Can we expect anymore PPI Phantoms or Soundstream Tarantula Nanos to come back in stock anytime soon? They seem to be sold out everywhere.


----------



## trumpet

GTOhaas07 said:


> Can we expect anymore PPI Phantoms or Soundstream Tarantula Nanos to come back in stock anytime soon? They seem to be sold out everywhere.


According to my source, yes, the Phantoms will be back in stock soon.


----------



## Big T

According to Ryan The got the Phantoms in last Tuesday and should start shipping Monday.


----------



## zql8tr

They are both in stock per the respective websites.


----------



## Rybaudio

I'm looking for a Phantom P900.5, but can't seem to find one. Anyone know if that specific amp will be available soon?

Also, is this same board available in a different case under a different name?


----------



## rton20s

The information you're asking for is all over this forum including the last few pages of this thread. 

Sonic says they'll have the Soundstream version ready to ship next week. 
Soundstream TN5.950D Tarantula NANO 950W 5-Channel Amplifier


----------



## Rybaudio

Thanks for the link. I gathered that the Phantom amps in general will be coming around soon, but was unable to find any information specifically about the 900.5. On ebay and in online stores the other phantom amps look like they are available, but the 5 channel is a different story. Searching for 900.5 or P900.5 yielded no recent results that would indicate that specific amp will or will not be available soon.

So my question is does anyone know if that exact amp will be available? If I prefer the aesthetics of the phantom of the soundstream version, am I wasting my time waiting for the Phantom?


----------



## Rybaudio

I've seen reports of people who claim to have one so that seems right.


----------



## Big T

They are in stock again


----------



## Rybaudio

Not on sonicelectronics or the PPI website. Am I looking in the wrong spot?


----------



## rton20s

I think when he says "in stock" he is referring to Epsilon's stateside warehouse. I haven't seen any vendors showing they have received stock from this latest shipment.


----------



## Big T

Oops. Spoke to soon. 900.5 isn't. Sorry


----------



## bkjay

woofersetc. shows them in stock.

WoofersEtc.com - P900.5 - Precision Power 5-Channel Class D Phantom Series Amplifier


----------



## Gnfanatic

You guys with the phantom series amps (p900.4 and p1000.1) how are they holding up?? I was thinking about purchasing them but dont know the quality and sq.

thanks!


----------



## Big T

I have then and only had a issue with the one I put on my 4 wheeler ( it got wet. Who would have thought that lol) 

I compete SQ in IASCA and USACi


----------



## 1fishman

Gnfanatic said:


> You guys with the phantom series amps (p900.4 and p1000.1) how are they holding up?? I was thinking about purchasing them but don't know the quality and sq.
> 
> thanks!


I have 3 in a van for 2 years with no issues. I was told that JL and Alpine sound more dynamic... I swapped out the 900.4 with a HD5/900 and i can't truly say there was much difference. Maybe in a fair side by side test i would be able to tell. But in my case, with my equipment, there was not any stand out difference to note, they both sound very good.


----------



## Bayboy

Ready to put something in my sedan and just missed out on a 5 channel, but after slight deliberation I believe the P900.5 is the better deal. When in the heck is Sonic going to get this thing back in stock????


----------



## soundquality4me

So with the new black ice line-up that just came out 2 weeks ago..

Has anyone had the chance to get one in and test for any results/comparisons??


----------



## Big T

OK Guys. 
As a lot of you know I was at the Unified Car Audio world Finals last weekend in Nashville. Was a great weekend. I got 
2nd place in USACi AMA 1sq+
I set the USACi Ama 1SQ+ Legal SPL World Record

1 place in IASCA PRoAm IQC (install)
Tied for first in RTA/SPL 
And won Triple Crown which is the top award. Sound, install, RtA, and SPL combined.

My wife got 1st in IASCA AMA Install

Any one who doesn't think PPI is on their game is crazy.


----------



## bkjay

Nice! Good job man.


----------



## Lycancatt

all the talk in this thread is about the class d phantom series, how bout some chatter concerning the black ice amps? they are really low budget amps and may be very bad..but they are class ab and a friend is looking into them for his saab build. not small, no..but seem desent on specs.


----------



## lizardking

Are you saying it can be done without the use of exotic amps and speakers? LOL.....imagine that.


----------



## Lycancatt

weird isn't it! currently sourcing parts for a simple build using powerbass amps and raw Dayton and eminence drivers..early 2015 could be interesting.


----------



## Orion525iT

gregerst22 said:


> Is it okay to ask exactly what you we're you running?


I am curious about this too, as I will be looking for some amp soon. I was thinking two Alpine PDX-V9s. Yep, I need that many channels.


----------



## Big T

Clarion DRX 9255 head
PPI DEQ 8
2 P900.4s
P.65c3 front stage
A2.65c rear fill
2 A.8SQ subs
1 PDX10k SPL amp
4 P.12 subs (SPL)


----------



## 1fishman

Big T said:


> Clarion DRX 9255 head
> PPI DEQ 8
> 2 P900.4s
> P.65c3 front stage
> A2.65c rear fill
> 2 A.8SQ subs
> 1 PDX10k SPL amp
> 4 P.12 subs (SPL)


Congrats on your great finish-es.

How are you using your A.8SQ's? power, crossovers, box type?


----------



## Big T

.75cf sealed 145watts each (rear ch of a p 900.4) 
Xover @60 with the DEQ-8


----------



## Big T

Anyone interested in a P900.4. I need to get rid of my spare


----------



## jpf150

^How much?


----------



## Big T

jpf150 said:


> ^How much?



Sent message


----------



## Broshi

Big T said:


> Sent message


If you still have this, please PM me. I'm looking at buying a few if anyone has one that doesn't want it.


----------



## Iamsmuts

I swapped out a JL JX360/2 for the PPI 900.4 today so I can run active. I haven't gone all the way yet. My front stage is run passive on a Pioneer PRS-D800 right now. It will be given tweeter duty. (I'm going to use the PPI for mids and attenuated, band passed rear fill.)

Installing the PPI was infuriating. The mounting holes obscure most of the screws. You are forced to use their narrow, weak screws. But that's nothing. I read about how difficult it is to attach wires with a normal screw driver, but I had no idea.

The power inputs would barely take my 4 gauge wire. It took about 20 minutes to get them in. I lost a lot of strands. The screws are nearly impossible to get back in tight. The speaker connectors are nuts. The positive is way out in front of the negative. You should probably cut the wires different lengths.

The knobs aren't as bad as a I thought. I'll put some nail polish on them to note the indicator. They were all lined up right.

The power output from left to right is different. I'm not sure what the source of this is. I had to adjust the right to -1 on the head unit to get the voltage from the PPI equal. Happily the Pioneer amp has left and right gains. 

My head unit is a Pioneer DEH-80PRS. I had to turn the volume to 52/62 to get the PPI to full power with the gains all the way up using test tones. I configured my other amps at 47/62 and none of them are close to full gain.

In contrast to the JL JX (a budget amp), the build quality and user friendliness of the PPI is awful. The JL is solid. The connectors are easy to use and tighten easily. The PPI is idiotic in contrast. Embarassing. . . . The plastic covers on the Pioneer are the only problem.

I'm going active tomorrow, but I don't trust this amp. I suspect that it will die and I'll be looking for an Arc next week.


----------



## Big T

I haven't had any problems with any we installed.


----------



## Babs

I'm using the NVX variants and agree certain aspects of the build quality could be better but have been impressed by their sound for the money. Having said that, I'll be interested in something built better going forward. JL HD maybe. Among the mainstream US brands, that line appears the top of the food chain. Not inexpensive but certainly seriously good. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## locotony

I installed my 900.4 and 1000.1 last week, granted they have sat for nearly a year but had none of the iamsmuts had, screws were a little tough to get at for the negative wires but otherwise the 900.4 is powering my illusion c6's beautifully.


----------



## Iamsmuts

locotony said:


> I installed my 900.4 and 1000.1 last week, granted they have sat for nearly a year but had none of the iamsmuts had, screws were a little tough to get at for the negative wires but otherwise the 900.4 is powering my illusion c6's beautifully.



I still really hate the connectors and the mounting holes, but the amp seems solid. I've been running it for a week now. I think it would be impossible to get the crossover points anywhere close to precise, but they aren't bad for band passing rear fill adjusted by ear. My front mids are run without using the crossover. 

I have lots of clean power and no noticeable noise. No complaints so far. Seems like a bargain for the $160 or so I ordered it at. 

I'll post back if I have any problems. For now, I'm happy. I'll be unhappy soon when I remount the amps. But I think I'll try to get a smaller screw driver. Maybe that will help some.


----------



## Bayboy

Iamsmuts said:


> I still really hate the connectors and the mounting holes, but the amp seems solid. I've been running it for a week now. I think it would be impossible to get the crossover points anywhere close to precise, but they aren't bad for band passing rear fill adjusted by ear. My front mids are run without using the crossover.
> 
> I have lots of clean power and no noticeable noise. No complaints so far. Seems like a bargain for the $160 or so I ordered it at.
> 
> I'll post back if I have any problems. For now, I'm happy. I'll be unhappy soon when I remount the amps. But I think I'll try to get a smaller screw driver. Maybe that will help some.


Good way to defeat the unknown xover point issue is use an RTA. That way you can see what the acoustic response will be in the listening environment instead of some arbitrary number. Same goes for a digital filter even though most do it the lazy way (including me).


----------



## 1styearsi

Big T said:


> OK Guys.
> As a lot of you know I was at the Unified Car Audio world Finals last weekend in Nashville. Was a great weekend. I got
> 2nd place in USACi AMA 1sq+
> I set the USACi Ama 1SQ+ Legal SPL World Record
> 
> 1 place in IASCA PRoAm IQC (install)
> Tied for first in RTA/SPL
> And won Triple Crown which is the top award. Sound, install, RtA, and SPL combined.
> 
> My wife got 1st in IASCA AMA Install
> 
> Any one who doesn't think PPI is on their game is crazy.


i won a trophy at a show but i was the only entry in the class,:laugh:


----------



## Big T

1styearsi said:


> i won a trophy at a show but i was the only entry in the class,:laugh:



A win is a win.


----------



## 1Sik1500

Just ordered a 900.4 to go with my PPi 3-Ways. Glad to see these amps are still popular. Anything upcoming for PPI Big T? New exciting products?


----------



## Big T

Not sure. They are working on some stuff I think. But they are keeping is quite


----------



## Iamsmuts

One of the listed features for the PPI 900.4 is an "On/Off circuit delay". 

Is this why the amp takes 2-3 seconds longer than my others to power on? If so, how is this a feature?

When I turn my head unit on, the protect light on the PPI comes on for about 2.5 seconds. Then the blue light comes on. My other amps take about 1.5 seconds to start playing. I guess this is normal. But it's a little irritating.


----------



## subwoofery

Iamsmuts said:


> One of the listed features for the PPI 900.4 is an "On/Off circuit delay".
> 
> Is this why the amp takes 2-3 seconds longer than my others to power on? If so, how is this a feature?
> 
> When I turn my head unit on, the protect light on the PPI comes on for about 2.5 seconds. Then the blue light comes on. My other amps take about 1.5 seconds to start playing. I guess this is normal. But it's a little irritating.


Guess my 5-7 seconds Milbert is not for you  

Kelvin


----------



## ben54b

I think the turn on delay is actually a good thing. Sounds a bit weird when I get mids and tweets but no mid bass. Two seconds later on it comes with no pops.


----------



## Iamsmuts

ben54b said:


> I think the turn on delay is actually a good thing. Sounds a bit weird when I get mids and tweets but no mid bass. Two seconds later on it comes with no pops.


I can see that the no pops is a plus. The protect light worried me a bit today. I hand't noticed it before. . . .


----------



## ben54b

Can't say I've noticed the protect light. I haven't looked for it either I must say.


----------



## Big T

Yes. The delay is to let the rest of the system come on first so they do not cause noise when turning on. If all of your amps are the same they should come on pretty close to the same time..


----------



## omega48er

Could someone tell me how to bridge my ppi p900.5? Thanks.


----------



## Big T

R+. L-


----------



## omega48er

Big T said:


> R+. L-


Hay Big T thanks,

here is what i see. 



















I Am trying to bridge the 4 channels to give power to my front pc 65c3

Thanks again.


----------



## gstokes

fatman406 said:


> *ahem* back to the subjuect...... I wouldnt mind running one of those black ice amplifiers in my car, IMO there dead sexy:biggrinflip:


x 2..


----------



## DDfusion

Does it say power acoustic on the board? 

I can't understand how the online audio community is still supporting PPI.


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> Does it say power acoustic on the board?
> 
> I can't understand how the online audio community is still supporting PPI.


Because they are making passable products that are no different than the majority of the industry. With their Phantom/Tarantula Nano lines they are offering a product very similar offereings from NVX, Hertz, Nakamichi and Polk at a lower price point. 

Is it the PPI of the 90s? Absolutely not. Do they have some decent product worth considering for people working to a budget? Absolutely.


----------



## DDfusion

rton20s said:


> Because they are making passable products that are no different than the majority of the industry. With their Phantom/Tarantula Nano lines they are offering a product very similar offereings from NVX, Hertz, Nakamichi and Polk at a lower price point.
> 
> Is it the PPI of the 90s? Absolutely not. Do they have some decent product worth considering for people working to a budget? Absolutely.


The new BA line is at the same price and real power as its PA brother. Is that a passible amp also? 

No it's not for this community because it's overrated power acoustic. They are the exact same thing and it's fine since it says SS or PPI. 
I refuse to support these brands and I think we all should refuse to. The race to zero is killing this hobby.


----------



## 1Sik1500

Love my PPI 900.4 No issues at all.


----------



## Big T

R+. L-


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> The new BA line is at the same price and real power as its PA brother. Is that a passible amp also?
> 
> No it's not for this community because it's overrated power acoustic. They are the exact same thing and it's fine since it says SS or PPI.
> I refuse to support these brands and I think we all should refuse to. The race to zero is killing this hobby.


If you think you are the lone voice in the wilderness, you are sadly mistaken. There have been plenty of people, myself included, who have been critical of the approach that Epsilon has taken with their Precision Power and Soundstream brands. Especially since the departure of Grizz Archer. 

However, as an outsider looking in, Epsilon appears to be doing what they feel is best for their market and for their profitability. The focus on Epsilon's part does not appear to be in establishing a flagship brand or even in making a top tier product. I think they took _their_ shot at it with products like the Soundstream Reference amps. It didn't work out so well for them. 

Epsilon knows who and what puts money in their pockets and that is where they are going to focus their efforts. Your calls to boycott will fall on deaf ears and Epsilon will continue to do what they are doing. People, like those here on DIYMA, will continue to watch their brands (as they watch all brands) to look for products worth consideration. Just like they did with the PPi Phantoms.


----------



## Big T

DDfusion said:


> The new BA line is at the same price and real power as its PA brother. Is that a passible amp also?
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not for this community because it's overrated power acoustic. They are the exact same thing and it's fine since it says SS or PPI.
> 
> I refuse to support these brands and I think we all should refuse to. The race to zero is killing this hobby.



Actually the PPI and PA are not the same amps. The PPI amps a very good amps. 
They treat their customers greAt and the products are solid. Fits in here perfectly..


----------



## DDfusion

Big T said:


> Actually the PPI and PA are not the same amps. The PPI amps a very good amps.
> They treat their customers greAt and the products are solid. Fits in here perfectly..


Look again


----------



## DDfusion

rton20s said:


> If you think you are the lone voice in the wilderness, you are sadly mistaken. There have been plenty of people, myself included, who have been critical of the approach that Epsilon has taken with their Precision Power and Soundstream brands. Especially since the departure of Grizz Archer.
> 
> However, as an outsider looking in, Epsilon appears to be doing what they feel is best for their market and for their profitability. The focus on Epsilon's part does not appear to be in establishing a flagship brand or even in making a top tier product. I think they took _their_ shot at it with products like the Soundstream Reference amps. It didn't work out so well for them.
> 
> Epsilon knows who and what puts money in their pockets and that is where they are going to focus their efforts. Your calls to boycott will fall on deaf ears and Epsilon will continue to do what they are doing. People, like those here on DIYMA, will continue to watch their brands (as they watch all brands) to look for products worth consideration. Just like they did with the PPi Phantoms.


BOSS is still the highest net profit name. 

We should be educating away from shady brands not promoting them.


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> BOSS is still the highest net profit name.
> 
> We should be educating away from shady brands not promoting them.


I've yet to see anyone "promoting" Boss on this site. And you don't see anyone promoting everything from Epsilon either. When a company makes a product that members of this community deem worth consideration it generates discussion. That isn't the same thing as promoting it. And if Boss was to release an amp line tomorrow that was as solid as the amps being discussed within this thread, you can bet that there would be lots of discussion about it here on DIYMA.

Epsilon, like them or not, have come up with some products that this community has determined worthy of consideration. To the point that the PPI Phantom line has found enough favor to be worthy of "forum boner" status. The fact that this thread is still going over 4 years later is evidence enough that Epsilon got something right with the Phantoms. Are they the end all, be all? No. Are they on the same level as an Art amp from the 90s? No. Do they offer a lot of power in a small footprint at a great value? Yes.


----------



## gstokes

Big T said:


> Yes. The delay is to let the rest of the system come on first so they do not cause noise when turning on. If all of your amps are the same they should come on pretty close to the same time..


Bingo, delay allows the head unit to finish booting before the amp turns on so you don't get that annoying and possibly harmful THUMP or POP..
My cheap ass MB Quart amp has a 2.5 sec turn on delay but it's getting replaced with 3 new PPI Black Ice Amps, BA1000.4 for the tweets/mids, BA800.2 for the woofers and a BA2600.1D for the Subs, $303 for 7 channels ain't nothing to sneeze at..


----------



## 1fishman

DDfusion said:


> BOSS is still the highest net profit name.
> 
> We should be educating away from shady brands not promoting them.


Please educate us. Why should we get rid of our phantom amps? They win SQ contests, they last, they do rated power. What is it im missing?


----------



## DDfusion

1fishman said:


> Please educate us. Why should we get rid of our phantom amps? They win SQ contests, they last, they do rated power. What is it im missing?


Its as simple as giving money to crooks.

Just my 2 cents. Look at the new stuff, that tells the story


----------



## TheAlchemist9

DDfusion said:


> Its as simple as giving money to crooks.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. Look at the new stuff, that tells the story


They run a legal business that sells products at a price point lower than I value the utility of the products. So I buy them. Simple economics...


----------



## Big T

DDfusion said:


> Look again



Look again at what. I deal with them all the time. I am on their team and won IASCA triple crown at finals with the phantoms last year


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> Its as simple as giving money to crooks.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. Look at the new stuff, that tells the story


----------



## DDfusion

Go on Sonic and look for the 2 $150 5 channels. They will be right beside each other. 

I wonder if BOSS bought out ARC and started making grossly overrated products you would still buy them. 


But they have one amp that's decent. I mean passes power but feels very cheap.


----------



## Big T

Ok. What's you point. They arnt the same. The PPI has RCAs on the amp and the PA has pigtails that plug in..


----------



## locotony

I think DDFusion is one of those guys that needs a class AB surfboard amp and running at a temperature approximately 2 degrees cooler than the Sun to be happy.

Are the phantom's the end all be all, no not even close, but they are better than most others at their price point, yes. Can They win critical listening contests, Yes, Big T has proven that as have others. and most importantly the amps fit my amp needs for something that would fit under my seats, Would I rather have some Arc's or Mosconi's, sure, you want to loan me the money needed to buy them? probably not, so I'll stick with the 350 bucks I have in amps and be happy with them. No they are not as Clean as My old A/D/S stuff, or even my early/mid 90's SS Refs and Fosgate x2 stuff but they also don't need all the caps replaced from being 25-30 years old.


----------



## edzyy

I like the Phantoms and will continue to use em


----------



## DDfusion

locotony said:


> I think DDFusion is one of those guys that needs a class AB surfboard amp and running at a temperature approximately 2 degrees cooler than the Sun to be happy.
> 
> Are the phantom's the end all be all, no not even close, but they are better than most others at their price point, yes. Can They win critical listening contests, Yes, Big T has proven that as have others. and most importantly the amps fit my amp needs for something that would fit under my seats, Would I rather have some Arc's or Mosconi's, sure, you want to loan me the money needed to buy them? probably not, so I'll stick with the 350 bucks I have in amps and be happy with them. No they are not as Clean as My old A/D/S stuff, or even my early/mid 90's SS Refs and Fosgate x2 stuff but they also don't need all the caps replaced from being 25-30 years old.


Those giant amps set the standard.. I do wish I could still use them but I'm space limited so I do not. Every day I look for a new A/B to replace my very strong D full range. They are just to big for the room I have to give up.


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> Those giant amps set the standard.. I do wish I could still use them but I'm space limited so I do not. Every day I look for a new A/B to replace my very strong D full range. They are just to big for the room I have to give up.


So, it isn't a class AB vs Class D thing for you. It is becoming pretty apparent that you have an axe to grind with PPI. Is it just because they aren't the PPI you (and so many of us) loved from two decades ago? Or is it something more? 

Since this thread has been primarily about the Phantoms (and secondarily about the Black Ice), what about their Chinese made amps makes them any worse than Chinese made amps from any other brand? 

If these are not ok, and the people behind the company selling them are crooks...




















are these any better?


























And if so, why? 

Where do you draw your arbitrary line? 

When does a Class D amp, or any amp, become worth considering? 

Is it simply the name badge? 

Is it where the amp is designed? 

Is it where the amp is built?

I'm just trying to understand what it is that Epsilon does so wrong as to be labeled as "crooks" that 100 other brands aren't also doing.


----------



## DDfusion

So looking at the new BA amps for example. 
Rated WAY higher than they can do JUST LIKE their Power Acoustik brothers. 

That's my beef. 
Power Acoustik is known junk, what makes the same amp with a PPI or SS badge any different? 

Not a fan of Polk or NVX but the Hertz amp is clearly different.

You do know people try to copy good stuff. 
Look at the DD 9500. Is every clone the same?


----------



## TheAlchemist9

DDfusion said:


> Not a fan of Polk or NVX but the Hertz amp is clearly different.



Yeah, it says "Hertz" on it...


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> So looking at the new BA amps for example.
> Rated WAY higher than they can do JUST LIKE their Power Acoustik brothers.
> 
> That's my beef.
> Power Acoustik is known junk, what makes the same amp with a PPI or SS badge any different?
> 
> Not a fan of Polk or NVX but the Hertz amp is clearly different.
> 
> You do know people try to copy good stuff.
> Look at the DD 9500. Is every clone the same?


So, you have amp guts pictures to prove that the PA and PPI amps are the same? (Obvioulsy, they share boards on several of their amp brands across multiple lines. No one denies that.) And do you have proof that they aren't making rated power? 

How did you come to the conclusion that the "Hertz amp is clearly different?" I mean, other than the top mount controls, of course.

I don't follow Digital Designs too closely. Why would I look at the 9500? Who is DD attempting to clone?


----------



## DDfusion

This is pointless. I thought I was talking to people that know car audio.

I was wrong


----------



## rton20s

I guess so.

If you really want to be upset with Epsilon, at least choose a legitimate reason. Here, I'll help...

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/CivPen/Documents/20140725_epsilon.pdf


----------



## DDfusion

Next forum boner is Power Acoustik.. I'll start a tend


----------



## omega48er

I am not one with much knowledge about the inner workings about these amplifiers or "forum boners" I have had my fare share of amplifiers and i am very happy with my P900.5 at the moment. I just wish they would come out with a 6 channel amp. 

Yes, the build quality is not as nice as my XD amps or my HD amps but these amps are not falling apart and the sub channel hits hard as my xd600/1

the largest amp i have owned is the Boston GT2300 and that thing was huge! Loved it but took up so much room, i was running 2 of these and well, it was just too big. 

the phantom is half the price of my xd amps and it gets the job done with no issues (ATM) and not to mention these amps are under rated.

Most importantly this amp fits under the 3rd row seat of my jeep commander. 

I love car audio... but cant stand running those huge amps any more. 

Again, I do not have much knowledge about the internals. I did a lot of research and PASMAG gave them a good review.


----------



## Big T

Actually the Phantoms come off the same assembly line as the Hertz class D amps. 
You can look at the pics of the outside of the BA and PA 5ch and tell they are diffrent. 
Clearly you thought you were talking to people who didn't know car audio if you thought we were going to buy into your nonsense and lies.


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> Next forum boner is Power Acoustik.. I'll start a tend


----------



## DDfusion

Big T said:


> Actually the Phantoms come off the same assembly line as the Hertz class D amps.
> You can look at the pics of the outside of the BA and PA 5ch and tell they are diffrent.
> Clearly you thought you were talking to people who didn't know car audio if you thought we were going to buy into your nonsense and lies.


Clearly you all think a amp rated at 3500 that can't even do 2000 clean with a 7000 watt label is a good thing for a brand to do.


----------



## rton20s

DDfusion said:


> Clearly you all think a amp rated at 3500 that can't even do 2000 clean with a 7000 watt label is a good thing for a brand to do.


Clearly you think that people on DIYMA actually care about "3500W" amps marketed to the SPL crowd. 

I'll go ahead and bite though... Naming conventions aside, do you have proof that the BA7000.1D can't do rated power?


----------



## Big T

And the BA is the entry level line


----------



## DDfusion

rton20s said:


> Clearly you think that people on DIYMA actually care about "3500W" amps marketed to the SPL crowd.
> 
> I'll go ahead and bite though... Naming conventions aside, do you have proof that the BA7000.1D can't do rated power?


2100 at .5ohm clipped. But since it's entry level it's ok to be rated at 3500 and stamped 7000


----------



## DDfusion

Clamps


----------



## Big T

Actually. Yes. Out of an entry level amp I do not expect as much otherwise why make the better lines. 
But again you said it was the same as a PA which it is not.

Was it tested in a controlled lab or a car?
If in a car did the power source maintain proper voltage?

Are we sure the amp clipped and not the Headunit or something up stream?

I am not saying this is the greatest amp in the world. But to say that it is the same as the PA amp when the connections on the end are not even close to the same or scream boycott PPI cause your amp didn't put out rated power in a car is nonsense. They make very good products.

That's like buying a Nissan Versa and complaining it doesn't preform like a GTR


----------



## DDfusion

If you say so. 

That's about the same performance you get out of the PA BAMF5500 or whatever the flee market name is. 

Face it, just like maxxsonics killed everything they now own PPI is dead. 
They made one cheap amp line that at least made rated power to hook the name suckers. Just like Maxxsonics did.


----------



## Big T

PPI makes one
Of the best component speaker set available. PPI is far from dead.


----------



## BlueGhost

I don't understand the argument, this is like refusing to buy a Mustang because Ford also made the Festiva.

Edit: Guess I should have read the last page, Big T made the same point.


----------



## rton20s

I'm still waiting for proof that the PPI and Power Acoustik amps are the same. Also waiting for proof of claims of being underrated. A screen grab and random pic are not proof. BigT pretty well covered it. Until then...


----------



## TheAlchemist9

I have seen multiple people claim those BA amps are overrated by quite a bit when I was researching mono amps. I think they only accept 8 gauge power and ground wires, which is pretty concerning. It would seem dangerous for them to actually do rated power through an 8awg cable...

I ended up choosing the Soundstream T1.6000DL, which seems better in every way than the PPI BA and actually accepts 0 gauge power and ground wires. I assume it's also overrated by a bit since Epsilon likes to rate their amps at 14.4v instead of 14v. It's also quite a bit more power than I need, so I should be okay.


----------



## rton20s

EcoHawk said:


> I have seen multiple people claim those BA amps are overrated by quite a bit when I was researching mono amps. I think they only accept 8 gauge power and ground wires, which is pretty concerning. It would seem dangerous for them to actually do rated power through an 8awg cable...
> 
> I ended up choosing the Soundstream T1.6000DL, which seems better in every way than the PPI BA and actually accepts 0 gauge power and ground wires. I assume it's also overrated by a bit since Epsilon likes to rate their amps at 14.4v instead of 14v. It's also quite a bit more power than I need, so I should be okay.


----------



## JAX

rton20s said:


> I'm still waiting for proof that the PPI and Power Acoustik amps are the same. Also waiting for proof of claims of being underrated. A screen grab and random pic are not proof. BigT pretty well covered it. Until then...


Well you know Who told me them ppi amps were also made as pa amps and that was David. He wouldn't have said it Just to say it. He just couldn't recall which series it was


----------



## TheAlchemist9

rton20s said:


>



Not sure what you're getting at here. Because one amp is overrated, they're all junk?


----------



## rton20s

JAX said:


> Well you know Who told me them ppi amps were also made as pa amps and that was David. He wouldn't have said it Just to say it. He just couldn't recall which series it was


I believe I know which David you are referring to. And are you talking about the second gen Black Ice amps specifically, or just Epsilon brands sharing boards in general? 



EcoHawk said:


> Not sure what you're getting at here. Because one amp is overrated, they're all junk?





EcoHawk said:


> I have seen multiple people *claim* those BA amps are overrated by quite a bit when I was researching mono amps. I *think* they only accept 8 gauge power and ground wires, which is pretty concerning. It would *seem* dangerous for them to actually do rated power through an 8awg cable...
> 
> I ended up choosing the Soundstream T1.6000DL, which *seems* better in every way than the PPI BA and actually accepts 0 gauge power and ground wires. I assume it's also overrated by a bit since Epsilon likes to rate their amps at 14.4v instead of 14v. It's also quite a bit more power than I need, so I should be okay.


There has been *a lot* of speculation and incorrect information about the new Black Ice amps (especially on SPL forums) but not much of anything in the way of facts. 

What is somewhat frustrating is that Ryan could come in here and straighten pretty much all of this out with one post. He's probably too busy shipping amps off to Iran though.


----------



## Big T

Ryan is leaving on vacation today and has been busting but trying to get ahead so he can be for the next 2 weeks.
I don't know of a David there, but as I understand it only PPI and SS share..


----------



## rton20s

Big T said:


> Ryan is leaving on vacation today and has been busting but trying to get ahead so he can be for the next 2 weeks.
> I don't know of a David there, but as I understand it only PPI and SS share..


No vacations!

We already know better than Epsilon not using the same boards for PA. 

Hasn't Ryan confrimed that PA Razor, PPI Ion and Soundstream Tarantula Nano all share the same board? The same boards used by Dual and Axxera? And the PA Crypt sure looks a lot like the Soundstream Stealth? Dual and Axxera appear to be using those boards as well.


----------



## Darth SQ

Well that was a waste of three pages and the time taken to read them.
Take it from someone that runs true old school PPI and new school Soundstream; you truly don't know what you're trolling about.
I honestly lol'd when I read the calling of a PPI boycott from someone that has only been on this forum for less than 90 days.
Now if you want to stir the pot, go over to CACO where you'll find plenty like minded prognosticators just waiting to ***** about something. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## rton20s

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Now if you want to stir the pot, go over to CACO where you'll find plenty like minded prognosticators just waiting to ***** about something.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


A quick google search gives a pretty simple indication of where most of the "information" about the second gen Black Ice amps comes from.


----------



## Big T

I get my information from a much more reliable source than google.


----------



## DDfusion

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Well that was a waste of three pages and the time taken to read them.
> Take it from someone that runs true old school PPI and new school Soundstream; you truly don't know what you're trolling about.
> I honestly lol'd when I read the calling of a PPI boycott from someone that has only been on this forum for less than 90 days.
> Now if you want to stir the pot, go over to CACO where you'll find plenty like minded prognosticators just waiting to ***** about something.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


The amount of days I've been signed up to this forum matters?


----------



## Lou Frasier2

DDfusion said:


> If you say so.
> 
> That's about the same performance you get out of the PA BAMF5500 or whatever the flee market name is.
> 
> Face it, just like maxxsonics killed everything they now own PPI is dead.
> They made one cheap amp line that at least made rated power to hook the name suckers. Just like Maxxsonics did.


are you here just to stir the pot?i for one cant afford an amp that costs more than 300 to power my speakers and im sure there are a few here that are in the same situation so what exactly is your point for bringing your argument here?


----------



## DDfusion

Lou Frasier2 said:


> are you here just to stir the pot?i for one cant afford an amp that costs more than 300 to power my speakers and im sure there are a few here that are in the same situation so what exactly is your point for bringing your argument here?


Doesn't every body have that one thing that erks them? 

Mine is great companies getting bought by trash and killing them. 


There are good amps(4 channel) under $300


----------



## Darth SQ

DDfusion said:


> The amount of days I've been signed up to this forum matters?





DDfusion said:


> Doesn't every body have that one thing that erks them?
> 
> Mine is great companies getting bought by trash and killing them.
> 
> 
> There are good amps(4 channel) under $300


1-The short time you've been here added to the doubling down of trashing contemporary PPI doesn't help your credibility at all.

2-PPI has been owned by a number of parent companies over the years.
DEI might be the closest to your definition of a trash company but Epsilon (current parent company) is not one of them.
You may not like the products being produced by Epsilon for today's car audio marketplace but that's your problem because the track record for cost, reliability, and quality is excellent and as some have already said, they are winning against components three times the cost. 
This is not even debatable.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## ben54b

DDfusion said:


> Doesn't every body have that one thing that erks them?
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is great companies getting bought by trash and killing them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are good amps(4 channel) under $300



The issue is that a lot of the amps under $300 new are pretty much the same amp. To me this isn't an issue coz until I get baller status I'm happy to run these kind of amps. 

As for brands getting trashed I see it as kind of like supporting your favourite sports team. In reality all sports teams do the same thing, you just happen to like one more than the others. If the coach changes there will be a change in direction but so be it life must go on. 

I have a 900.4 and its a good solid amp. Would I change it for old school ppi. If I had the space probably. Did I buy it because it was a brand I listed after in my youth. You betcha. Would I buy it again. Probably not as I could get better amps second hand for the same money, but I didn't realise that at the time.


----------



## DDfusion

I'm not so much talking about that one amp they made that seems to work, have seen the label falling off of them a lot. I'm talking about what they have right now. 

If you can't see what's happening you are not looking. This isn't a first and it's obvious. 

Wait till MD has their way with Orion.


----------



## Lou Frasier2

DDfusion said:


> Doesn't every body have that one thing that erks them?
> 
> Mine is great companies getting bought by trash and killing them.
> 
> 
> There are good amps(4 channel) under $300


i have those things that irk me but i seldom say anything about it in someone elses post,


----------



## DDfusion

It's a forum post about that subject.... A public forum full of every ones opinion. Well here's me, like it or not. 


Just saying


----------



## Darth SQ

ben54b said:


> The issue is that a lot of the amps under $300 new are pretty much the same amp. To me this isn't an issue coz until I get baller status I'm happy to run these kind of amps.
> 
> As for brands getting trashed I see it as kind of like supporting your favourite sports team. In reality all sports teams do the same thing, you just happen to like one more than the others. If the coach changes there will be a change in direction but so be it life must go on.
> 
> *I have a 900.4 and its a good solid amp. Would I change it for old school ppi. If I had the space probably. Did I buy it because it was a brand I listed after in my youth. You betcha. Would I buy it again. Probably not as I could get better amps second hand for the same money, but I didn't realise that at the time*.



^^^Above in bold^^^
Let me say this about the old PPI amps.
I love them, own many, and run them like they should be.
BUT THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY HUGE AND INEFFICIENT consuming vast amounts of space and power.
And if you knew what I spent to obtain visually like new specimens, recondition their internals, and provide ample current to motivate them, you'd understand why I went with the new Soundstreams this time around.
A class D 90% power efficiency all in a small footprint at an amazing price just cannot be passed on. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## 1fishman

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ^^^Above in bold^^^
> Let me say this about the old PPI amps.
> I love them, own many, and run them like they should be.
> BUT THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY HUGE AND INEFFICIENT consuming vast amounts of space and power.
> And if you knew what I spent to obtain visually like new specimens, recondition their internals, and provide ample current to motivate them, you'd understand why I went with the new Soundstreams this time around.
> A *class D 90% power efficiency *all in a small footprint at an amazing price just cannot be passed on.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Which of there amps are 90% efficient?


----------



## Darth SQ

1fishman said:


> Which of there amps are 90% efficient?


Class D.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## DDfusion

Where are you getting 90% from lol. 

CEA-2006A rated 4 ohm Power (minimum power per channel developed over the entire intended audio bandwidth)
131 Watts
Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch.
83.0%
Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch.
75.8%


Keep in mind that's is the best case senerio.


----------



## Big T

DDfusion said:


> Doesn't every body have that one thing that erks them?
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is great companies getting bought by trash and killing them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are good amps(4 channel) under $300



And the PPi lines are some of them.

Also you said you are stating your opinions but said the PA and PPI were the same is a yes or no , Fact or fiction statement. That isn't an opinion. If you said I don't like the way it sounds, or its ugly, that's an opinion.















Above are the pics of the end plates and connections of the BA 5ch you said was the same as the PA















And these are the PA. Not even close


----------



## PPI_GUY

I don't know about the 2nd generation of Black Ice amps but, the originals were supposedly based on the same internals found in the Soundstream Rubicon amps. Those were fairly successful and well received.

I'd really prefer to not have to buy anything made in China but, finding a quality amp at a reasonable price that is made in the USA is no longer an option. Luckily I have several old school PPI amps to fall back on. But, eventually I'll probably give in and purchase some modern, class D amps made by JL Audio. Why? Because the efficiency far surpasses the old a/b designs from the late 80's and early 90's.


----------



## Darth SQ

1fishman said:


> Which of there amps are 90% efficient?





DDfusion said:


> Where are you getting 90% from lol.
> 
> CEA-2006A rated 4 ohm Power (minimum power per channel developed over the entire intended audio bandwidth)
> 131 Watts
> Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch.
> 83.0%
> Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch.
> 75.8%
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that's is the best case scenerio.



A fair question.....

My bad.
I just got off the phone with the design engineer of the Phantoms and he confirmed low to mid 80s. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## PPI_GUY

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> A fair question.....
> 
> My bad.
> I just got off the phone with the design engineer of the Phantoms and he confirmed low to mid 80s.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Brett, 
The next time you talk to him, tell him to redesign the cosmetics of those Phantom amps. I understand they have to build them in China and they do perform really well but, do they have to be so ugly???


----------



## Darth SQ

PPI_GUY said:


> Brett,
> The next time you talk to him, tell him to redesign the cosmetics of those Phantom amps. I understand they have to build them in China and they do perform really well but, do they have to be so ugly???


LOL!
Yeah the heatsink appearance sure doesn't help it does it.
Well the Phantom amp line has had a long run based on Epsilon history so I would assume it's due for a makeover. 
Ryan at Epsilon probably could update us on that when he comes back to this thread.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## w0ngdc5

So what's the verdict on these amps? I read about 20 pages and some people love them and some people hate them. I was looking at purchasing the black ice model ba1600.4. Does it do anything close to rated power?


----------



## jpsandberg

Except for the weird heatsink design on the phantoms, I'm not sure I saw where really anyone hated them.


----------



## w0ngdc5

jpsandberg said:


> Except for the weird heatsink design on the phantoms, I'm not sure I saw where really anyone hated them.


I read a lot of people saying ppi is junk, China made stuff, and the quality is not as good since they were bought out. Then again it sounds like they're from people who don't like the brand image and haven't actually tried the product. I'm pretty much set on getting the ba1600.4.


----------



## PPI_GUY

w0ngdc5 said:


> So what's the verdict on these amps? I read about 20 pages and some people love them and some people hate them. I was looking at purchasing the black ice model ba1600.4. Does it do anything close to rated power?


I don't know if any amp series will ever benefit from a blanket "verdict". 
Some bad units will always get thru and those unfortunate enough to install one of those will definitely be in the "they're junk" crowd. But, a far larger number will be just fine and provide good quality sound for a far longer period. Ultimately, it will come down to your needs and expectations. No one makes a magical amp that will blow you away with loads of power, lofty dynamic headroom and ultimate clarity. If someone did make that amp....all other manufacturers could just close up shop.

Personally, I like amps without a lot of onboard processing. But, that's only my preference. I also prefer class D for sub use (because of efficiency) and a/b amps for everything else. That isn't set in stone and shouldn't be. 
More and more I am looking at amplification as simply a solid basis for sending signal to drivers. Not expecting the amp to make the difference but, rather provide the solid foundation that will enable my speakers to really show their stuff and sing.

Looking at just the first person experiences with the Phantom series on this messageboard, I'd say they work really well. Are they 100% perfect for everyone? Of course not. But, you'll have to drop a good bit more coin to take the next step beyond what these amps offer at their current price point.


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## orakulo

I completely lost after reading so many opinions. 

I am thinking to get a BA2200.5 to run a 3 way component + a Fosgate P3 D2-10.

What do you guys think?

My other options are a JBL GTO-5EZ 5 and a MB Quart OA1100.5

I really need some advice here.

thanks


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## Big T

The PPI is a great choice


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## gstokes

orakulo said:


> I completely lost after reading so many opinions.
> 
> I am thinking to get a BA2200.5 to run a 3 way component + a Fosgate P3 D2-10.
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> My other options are a JBL GTO-5EZ 5 and a MB Quart OA1100.5
> 
> I really need some advice here.
> 
> thanks


The MB Quart is a great beginner amp, i ran it for a year with ZERO issues, no hum no buzz no pop no thump no nothing, just music..
It even has bandpass filter making the switch to full active real easy..

The problem with a 5-channel amp is they lack power on the sub channel, the PPI puts out 560 Wrms @ 2~ but if you run 2 subwoofers that might not be enough..

A 4-channel to run the 2-way front stage and Mono Block for the Sub/s allows you to more closely match the power requirements of your components..

Eventually i will add a 135 Wrms x 2-channel amp and a pair of 6.5's and have 3-way front stage plus subwoofer, that's my final destination and one of the biggest reasons i chose PPI Black Ice, because they make 3 matching amplifiers that meet my design criteria and make the power that ALL my speakers desire..
80 x 4, Tweeters/mids
900 x 1, split between 2 subwoofers
and eventually..
135 x 2, woofers


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## Phil Indeblanc

I have the JBL GTO 3 channel, and even under a closed floor without a fan a 6 hour road trip with no breathing punishment, it was running non stop. I think the adjust knobs on it suck as they are loose, but thats not much an issue for me. Its a 2xAB and 1 xD for sub, and it pushes pretty well. I hardly use the 2 ch though, its for rears.


If you don't like the look of the PPI, I would strip the paint and go raw alum on it and clear gloss it. with some custom vinyl stickers.


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## gstokes

PPI_GUY said:


> I don't know about the 2nd generation of Black Ice amps but, the originals were supposedly based on the same internals found in the Soundstream Rubicon amps. Those were fairly successful and well received.


I ordered two of the 2nd Gen BA Series Black Ice amps and will pop the hood and get plenty of amp guts pictures, I have to be at the Seattle veterans hospital next Monday and won't be back until the following Monday so i may not have pics until next week but i have been reading reviews on amazon for some of the 2nd Gen Black Ice mono amps and they are all 5 star reviews with nothing but good things to say so am excited to be one of the first to review the multi-channel BA1000.4 and mono block BA26000.1D

The 1st Gen Black Ice use the BK designation and the 2nd Gen Black Ice use the BA designation..

The 2nd Gen BA Series amplifiers are built by two different manufacturers so some of them have a dull or matte finish and some have a shiny or gloss finish but internally they are identical..


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## juiceweazel

w0ngdc5 said:


> So what's the verdict on these amps? I read about 20 pages and some people love them and some people hate them. I was looking at purchasing the black ice model ba1600.4. Does it do anything close to rated power?


I've been running the PPI 900.5 phantom & love it. I'm running it active on my front set at 4 ohms & 2 ohms on a single 10. I haven't had 1 issue. The amp sounds clean and gets plenty loud. I'm still amazed how cool the amp runs. I'm sure many people will agree with me that it's hands down one of the best bang for your buck single amp solutions you can buy.


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## Babs

Shameless plug.. Similar 4-channel amp for sale based on the same board. The NVX version I think is done very well. Case is nice and resilient. Resistant to scratches etc. Cool matte finish. Very well-built little 4 channel that belts it out. Served me very very well.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/211145-fs-nvx-jad800-4-a.html


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## gstokes

juiceweazel said:


> I've been running the PPI 900.5 phantom & love it. I'm running it active on my front set at 4 ohms & 2 ohms on a single 10. I haven't had 1 issue. The amp sounds clean and gets plenty loud. I'm still amazed how cool the amp runs. I'm sure many people will agree with me that it's hands down one of the best bang for your buck single amp solutions you can buy.


+ 1, PPI gets my vote..


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## another-user

anyone seen one of these phantoms randomly go into protect mode? i have a 900.4, probably less than 100hrs on it. as soon as it starts it goes into protection (like it should) but it never goes from protection to ON. ive unhooked all the speaker wiring, and no change. im going to be more than a little pissed if i turns out an essentially brand new unit is dead already. 

this thing was working just fine the last time i had the car out.


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## craiggus365

I had mine do that after ~ 10 months. I removed all speaker wires and replaced them and it never did it again. I attributed it to a sliver of copper shorting a terminal, but I never actually saw the offending piece.
This was months ago and it never did it again :freak:


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## another-user

craiggus365 said:


> I had mine do that after ~ 10 months. I removed all speaker wires and replaced them and it never did it again. I attributed it to a sliver of copper shorting a terminal, but I never actually saw the offending piece.
> This was months ago and it never did it again :freak:


thats kinda what i was leaning towards. ive got a 900.2 wiried up next to it, ill just swap some wiring around for bench testing and see where im at.


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## Big T

If there is an issue Ryan will take care of you.


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## gstokes

So far so good with my Black Ice, loud and proud..
The amp guts are really boring and there's absolutely nothing to see there except for a dual-sided PCB with SMT..
It doesn't even look like a traditional amplifier except for the power transistors but it lays down the power, especially at 2 ohm!!


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## another-user

another-user said:


> anyone seen one of these phantoms randomly go into protect mode? i have a 900.4, probably less than 100hrs on it. as soon as it starts it goes into protection (like it should) but it never goes from protection to ON. ive unhooked all the speaker wiring, and no change. im going to be more than a little pissed if i turns out an essentially brand new unit is dead already.
> 
> this thing was working just fine the last time i had the car out.


got it working again this afternoon. thankfully it was a simple fix... the nut managed to back off the battery ground, and one of the cables fell off.


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## 1Sik1500

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2px2gBXAP8

Amp Dyno Done by Sonic. On the P1000.1


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## PPI_GUY

1Sik1500 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2px2gBXAP8
> 
> Amp Dyno Done by Sonic. On the P1000.1


That's pretty amazing. All of the tests were done at or under 14.0 volts too. That voltage is closer to what you'll actually see in your vehicle with the engine on and some accessories running. For approx. $325 you can get 2500+ watts (P900.4 & p1000.1) of efficient class D power in a small but, slightly unattractive footprint. 
Best bang for the buck out there?


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## alexRGR

What is the best version/clone of the PPI 900.4?

I have a TN4.900 and I also have a Hertz HDP4 and while they are listed in some places as being the same or similar amps they sound quite different. The HDP4 is MUCH louder, and a bit brighter. The TN4 is not as loud but has much warmer richer sound. I prefer the sound of the TN4 but am curious of all the clones which is the best made one? 

I'd love to find one that is as loud as the HDP4 but as warm as the TN4.

Is the PPI version the best one? I also saw Phoenix Gold has an 800.4 similar in size, not sure if they are still pumping out quality amps.


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## 1996blackmax

I had a TN1.1200D & a TN4.900D. I used them for about 10 months without any issues. Great bang for the buck as stated.


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## 1fishman

alexRGR said:


> What is the best version/clone of the PPI 900.4?
> 
> I have a TN4.900 and I also have a Hertz HDP4 and while they are listed in some places as being the same or similar amps they sound quite different. The HDP4 is MUCH louder, and a bit brighter. The TN4 is not as loud but has much warmer richer sound. I prefer the sound of the TN4 but am curious of all the clones which is the best made one?
> 
> I'd love to find one that is as loud as the HDP4 but as warm as the TN4.
> 
> Is the PPI version the best one? I also saw Phoenix Gold has an 800.4 similar in size, not sure if they are still pumping out quality amps.


Funny you say that, I had similar thoughts between the NVX and the PPI. (same board) 
I didn't spend enough time comparing them to truly confirm that with my own DIY blind test. To me it didn't seem to be anything a EQ couldn't correct. 

At some point I hope to spend the time to do some critical listening with some amps. I will say if you want to warm up your amp consider a tube preamp, then you have even more sound options with the many different tubes available.


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## alexRGR

1fishman said:


> Funny you say that, I had similar thoughts between the NVX and the PPI. (same board)
> I didn't spend enough time comparing them to truly confirm that with my own DIY blind test. To me it didn't seem to be anything a EQ couldn't correct.
> 
> .


What did you think of each? 

I find the Hertz HDP4 amp to be a completely different amp. The moment I plug it and I can set each of the gains on both with a DD-1 and it sounds like a different amp with much more volume behind it. Yes, I agree EQ get's me close.....but curious on comments regarding the other similar board amps.


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## omega48er

I wish someone else would make a compact 6ch amp similar to the xd600/6


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## rton20s

omega48er said:


> I wish someone else would make a compact 6ch amp similar to the xd600/6


If only other companies were willing to offer such an amp. 

Clarion U.S.A. | XC6610

XDi 1200.6Â*| Arc Audio

FPD 900.6 | Focal America


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## omega48er

rton20s said:


> If only other companies were willing to offer such an amp.
> 
> Clarion U.S.A. | XC6610
> 
> XDi 1200.6Â*| Arc Audio
> 
> FPD 900.6 | Focal America


MY BAD! I should have clarified. I wish PPI would put out a 6CH amp at a competitive price point. I use to own the 600/6 untill i sold it, should have kept it, but im not trying to spend that kind of money again.

I have the PPI 900.5 and love it. I would like a 6ch Phantom amp =]


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## alexRGR

Anyone heard both the PPI 900.4 and Zapco ST 204D? 

I've had a PPI and have the smaller Zapco version, the 104.....really like the sound of the Zapco. Curious if the output of the 204 as spec'd at 180wx4 rivals the output of the PPI 900.4 or similar clones.


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## coomaster1

This has been a great thread so far.There is a lot of talk about the PPI 900.4 amplifier, But none about the PPI phantom 600.2. Is it exactly the same sounding amplifier as the ppi 900.4,except it is 2 channel.You would think with 190 rms watts at 4 ohm. It would even be more dynamic and better sounding than the ppi 900.4 at 145rms watts. Also I have heard a few people say the ppi 900.4 has equal sound quality compared to the JL audio 600/4 , and after comparing the two they could hear no difference in sound quality., but the build quality may be better on the JL audio 600/4. Anybody have some detailed information on this.


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## cadeet

Gents,
Thinking about grabbing a PPI P900.5.
I have a friend who is offering to sell me a Pioneer GM-D9605 for a little less than the PPI.
Do you guys think the Pioneer holds up to the PPI? Specs are pretty tit for tat.


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## firebirdude

PPI should, in no way, be reference to the PPI of the old. Completely different company in every way. The name was sold off. 

Art Collector will probably ban me for this..... but I'd run the Pioneer. I've got a little experience with that line of Pioneer amps and they are little workhorses. Even though Pioneer is certainly mid-range big box stuff, that amp puts in work. I'd rather take that versus a brand I know has been liquidated and is now just about quantities and benjamins.

Low ball your friend and get a deal. lol Knock off $30 for a 12-pack of beer.


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## Darth SQ

firebirdude said:


> PPI should, in no way, be reference to the PPI of the old. Completely different company in every way. The name was sold off.
> 
> Art Collector will probably ban me for this..... but I'd run the Pioneer. I've got a little experience with that line of Pioneer amps and they are little workhorses. Even though Pioneer is certainly mid-range big box stuff, that amp puts in work. I'd rather take that versus a brand I know has been liquidated and is now just about quantities and benjamins.
> 
> Low ball your friend and get a deal. lol Knock off $30 for a 12-pack of beer.


LOL! No soup for you!


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## cadeet

That's the plan! As long as I could get some feedback about that Pioneer. Like you said, it's a mainstream product, but there is very little to be found on it.


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## rton20s

I've heard good and bad about both the current gen Pioneer GM-Ds as well as the PPI Phantoms. When the GM-Ds work, people seem to rave about them. When they don't, and there are noise issues, people can't get rid of them fast enough.


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## charles.beener

Is a subsonic filter important (ported box)? If so, then I would definitely go PPI. 

The Pioneers are good amps. Some have had noise/popping issues. 

I went with the NVX and the Soundstream PN5.640D for my work trucks. Excellent, the both of them.


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## cadeet

charles.beener said:


> Is a subsonic filter important (ported box)? If so, then I would definitely go PPI.
> 
> The Pioneers are good amps. Some have had noise/popping issues.
> 
> I went with the NVX and the Soundstream PN5.640D for my work trucks. Excellent, the both of them.


Great point! I'll be using a miniDSP C-DSP 6x8, so I'll be able to set filters/x-overs.


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## ParDeus

Just to update this!

DO NOT BUY THE Soundstream TN4.900D!!! It's not the same board anymore, even though their website says it is! Slimy SOB's!!!

Epsilon, you'll never get another $1 off me! (considering that's like 2 years of salary for me)

I've got timestamps on the photos if there's any questions, including a screenshot of their website.


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## rton20s

Whoa. That is pretty crazy. I wonder when the change took place, and if it was only on the SS side, or with the PPI as well. Curious to know what kind of performance and longevity differences might exist between them as well. 

Given the similarities of the input side, I wonder if the last run of TN4.900Ds actually contain the guts of the newer TN4.1200D. Someone needs to buy one and crack it open. 

*NEW*









*ORIGINAL*









*TN4.1200D*










*NEW*









*ORIGINAL*


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## JAX

so what is the new rip off actually a version of what? that sucks cause I was going to use them if I ever used another amp...thank goodness I mess with home audio now.


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## juiceweazel

Wonder if they changed the PPI 900.4 & we are just seeing the first run of the new designs?


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## rton20s

juiceweazel said:


> Wonder if they changed the PPI 900.4 & we are just seeing the first run of the new designs?


Nope. PPI Phantom amps have been discontinued entirely. The Tarantula Nanos have undergone a redesign, and the "clone" line has been discontinued, just like the Phantoms. This only speaks to the US market. Soundstream has been known to do some funny things in other markets.


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## juiceweazel

That's sad. I have the PPI 900.5 & it is a solid performer. One of the best single amp on a budget amps around.


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## PPI_GUY

Yup, we've been discussing the demise of the Phantom and redesign of the SS TN series in a few threads here and on social media. 
It's a terrible decision IMO. The older "clone" amps were a proven design. Epsilon should have just updated the cosmetics, fixed the mounting screw access issue on the Phantoms and carried on. 
I'm sure it's a money-saving revamp...otherwise, why do it? 
Now I just wish Epsilon would sell PPI to someone who would do the brand justice instead of trashing it (again).


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## JAX

PPI_GUY said:


> Yup, we've been discussing the demise of the Phantom and redesign of the SS TN series in a few threads here and on social media.
> It's a terrible decision IMO. The older "clone" amps were a proven design. Epsilon should have just updated the cosmetics, fixed the mounting screw access issue on the Phantoms and carried on.
> I'm sure it's a money-saving revamp...otherwise, why do it?
> Now I just wish Epsilon would sell PPI to someone who would do the brand justice instead of trashing it (again).



well they had a pretty good run with the Phantom didnt they? lol....its been a while for me if you hadnt guessed. about 4yrs. 

the thing I hated about it then was they had Soundstream and PPI all at same time. too much going on. too much crap


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## juiceweazel

PPI_GUY said:


> Now I just wish Epsilon would sell PPI to someone who would do the brand justice instead of trashing it (again).


Why bother. If you're going to go that far just come out with a new line & name that doesn't have the tarnished reputation with it.


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