# Thinking about taking the IB plunge. All IB users please chime in



## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

So I have been contemplating doing an IB install for a couple months now. Car is a 2008 Impala and the baffle would be located behind the rear seat back and bolted to the car wherever I can find a solid mounting point. The seats do not fold down in this car though. Is that a definite no no as far as IB is concerned? 

If the fixed seat will work with the setup the plan is to run a pair of 15's. I currently have a pair of Phoenix Gold Ti2 15's that I could use but I am also open to other suggestions for drivers as when I ran one of these 15's sealed I was not overly impressed with the sound quality. 

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on IB installs. I am real curious to know what to expect output wise. By that I mean will a traditional enclosure be ultimately louder no matter what? Also curious to know what kinds of music people are listening to with their IB install . Any tips and tricks would be welcome as well. 

If there is anyone in the Lansing,MI area with a decent IB setup I would love to hear it. I am really interested in the idea just a little scared to make permanent mods to my car and be disappointed with the results


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## J.novak (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm in the process of finishing up my baffles for my single idmax 15 ib setup. So I can't give a first hand account as to the output, but from my reasearch, it should be at least equal to what a sealed enclosure would yield.


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## butterMilk (Jan 27, 2014)

Im not sure about the seat not folding down thing, mine do and the arm rest folds down. I cut out the sheet metal behind the arm rest to let the air through. But I love the way my sub sounds IB. Still hits hard, sounds better and theres not a big sub box taking my whole trunk. Id say output is still quite good. If you do it just make sure the wall is really strong. I made the mistake of buying cheep HD brackets, and not making the wall strong enough. I then had to make a few of my own brackets out of 1/8 stainless, and ended up bolting 1x1x1/8 stainless angle to the wall to re enforce it. The wall was 1.5 inches thick and still that wasn't really thick enough in my opinion. I used some self taping screws on the brackets and bolts where ever I could. Self tappers are still holding strong 6 months later, though they did need a re tighten within the first week. I probably was just afraid to over tighten when installing ( better to go easy on them at first instead of over tightening and striping it out) 

Heres mine, I know I know its messy, it'll get cleaned up one day!!


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## 2010hummerguy (Oct 7, 2009)

I had IB in my home theater, freaking loved it!


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

Search build logs, lots of IB installs. JBL GTO subs are great IB, IDQ are good, and the incriminator audio flatlyne is amazing.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

For what it's worth, if it was my car, I would build a manifold. A box the width and height of the trunk, about six inches deep, sealed to the bottom of the rear deck with a big "port" through it. Reason being some seats stop more sound than others. Your car being one that does block quite a bit. You may be satisfied with the output with just a traditional baffle behind the seat. That's just how I would do it.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

moparman1 said:


> For what it's worth, if it was my car, I would build a manifold. A box the width and height of the trunk, about six inches deep, sealed to the bottom of the rear deck with a big "port" through it. Reason being some seats stop more sound than others. Your car being one that does block quite a bit. You may be satisfied with the output with just a traditional baffle behind the seat. That's just how I would do it.


I appreciate the input but wouldn't that essentially be a small ported enclosure vented through the rear deck? Maybe I am not understanding what you are describing. Pics of a similar setup?


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks to everybody for their input so far. I appreciate the help and suggestions.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

I think running the IDMax IB is a little bit of a waste of its capabilities. And you might find with cabin gain the sub bass can tend to get overemphasized.

When I switched the factory sub in my Cadillac CTS coupe to a JL 10w1v3, which has similar parameters to the IDMax, the sub bass became so overboosted I had to buy a bass processor just to cut the subbass response to get it back to flat.

That said I think you might be better served with a subwoofer like the Ultimax 15. These will do very well IB and cost less to boot.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

I think the ultimax would exaggerate the low end way more than an idmax


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

butterMilk said:


> Im not sure about the seat not folding down thing, mine do and the arm rest folds down. I cut out the sheet metal behind the arm rest to let the air through. But I love the way my sub sounds IB. Still hits hard, sounds better and theres not a big sub box taking my whole trunk. Id say output is still quite good. If you do it just make sure the wall is really strong. I made the mistake of buying cheep HD brackets, and not making the wall strong enough. I then had to make a few of my own brackets out of 1/8 stainless, and ended up bolting 1x1x1/8 stainless angle to the wall to re enforce it. The wall was 1.5 inches thick and still that wasn't really thick enough in my opinion. I used some self taping screws on the brackets and bolts where ever I could. Self tappers are still holding strong 6 months later, though they did need a re tighten within the first week. I probably was just afraid to over tighten when installing ( better to go easy on them at first instead of over tightening and striping it out)
> 
> Heres mine, I know I know its messy, it'll get cleaned up one day!!


What kind of car is this install in?


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

That is true, that the Ultimax will have more sub bass response. It is the one pitfall to IB, even though you get more sub-bass efficiency you can't use enclosures to tune the response to your cars cabin gain. To get flat response will require EQ'ing to match your particular cabin gain vs changing port tuning or box volume with traditional enclosures.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

Sorry, a little threadjack...

I currently have the sub mounted against the back seat via a small baffle board that is screwed against the back seat. It is "firing" through the ski-pass. The car is a BMW e90 and the back seat, which does not fold down, is fairly rigid and it makes for a pretty good IB baffle.

I am currently running a single SBP-15 off of 500W but am planning on upgrading to a single IDMax 15.

I can mount the Max the same way I have the SBP-15 mounted now, or the alternative would be to construct a thick MDF or plywood baffle behind the back seat, which would then be mounted to the car's frame instead. 

My questions are as follows:

1. Will the new baffle make an appreciable difference and if yes, why?

2. Is it better to have a gap between the new baffle and the back seat, or mount it tight against the back seat (while still mounting it to the frame as well)?


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## david in germany (Oct 7, 2009)

I ran a 93 Celica IB with 2 12" Fi x series. The seat did not fold and was solid foam. I actually had more output with the seat in place than without. I really miss the sound of that sub stage! Give it a try, each car is different. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Mike Bober (Apr 11, 2013)

Im about to go IB for the first time myself with two Acoustic Elegance 12's in my Camaro. Cant wait to try it out.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

david in germany said:


> I ran a 93 Celica IB with 2 12" Fi x series. The seat did not fold and was solid foam. I actually had more output with the seat in place than without. I really miss the sound of that sub stage! Give it a try, each car is different.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Makes sense as that car is a hatchback.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

I had a pair of 12's firing through backseat of my old 325. They were in a sealed box that was snug tight against the backseat frame (with screws) and gaskets around the woofers and backseat frame so that no air could get back into the trunk. I also pulled out the fairly stout foam of the backseat but only 12" circles where the woofers were so air could get into the cabin. The seats were leather and you could not tell I pulled out any foam.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

gregerst22 said:


> First of all keep in mind that the IDMax15 weighs about 50lbs, it's probably about 3x as much as your current sub, and a lot of that weight is 10 inches out at the magents on the end so there will be a lot of down force pressure working against the baffle / mounting points. The IDMax is capable of 44mm of peak excursion so when start playing some heavy bass that sub will want to rip itself loose if not mounted properly. Having said that you could still mount it the same way you have now as long as it's very strong. But a baffle using 2 sheets of mdf or ply walling off the trunk from the cabin might give you better sound deading from the back wave leaking into the cabin. But I'm not familar with how you car is setup. You don't need a gap between the seats and sub, the more bass you can fire directly into the cabin the better. But you'll need enough clearance for the IDmax to move give yourself at least an inch from the the top of the surround, which itself protudes about 1/2" from the mounting ring to the vehicle.


Yeah I thought about the weight as well and I think I will go ahead with a "real" IB baffle. Thanks.


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## david in germany (Oct 7, 2009)

moparman1 said:


> Makes sense as that car is a hatchback.


No, I had a coupe. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## butterMilk (Jan 27, 2014)

spooney said:


> What kind of car is this install in?


09 lancer


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Output potential is about the same as sealed but with far less power required on the low end. 

I've tried quite a few subs IB now and while I've had a high inductance monster like the Tempest X that was just sub bass, IB has by far come the closest to a flat response with no EQ. That includes 12W6s, 13W6s,'13W7s, AE IB15s, and now my mind went blank but there were a few more 12s and 15s. 

The IDMax15 does not have an issue with too much sub bass. Reviews have been excellent with some saying it does not dig as deep as the IB15 without EQ. I have to boost my IB15s a little at 20hz but they're flat up to 80hz where I have to cut a little. Overall very little EQ and I have to cut on the opposite end that people usually expect to have to cut an IB setup. 

About the seats, mine do not fold down and the foam is thick. I have a skip was that stays down except for when I have passengers which is rare. I lose a little output but it's mostly above 50hz. Very little loss in the subbass region. 

I would go for it. If you're happy with most sealed setups, chances are you will be more happy with an IB setup. If those 15s that didn't sound good sealed, sounded boomy and slow, IB is the cure for that. If we're stereotyping, my friend commented that my 15s sound like a pair of high end 10s due to the stereotypical tight quick bass people think 10s are better at which isn't true but you get he point. What I have now and what I had with the other subs except for the tempest was a setup that plays rap as well as rock as well as it does country. IMO the IB setup *generally* results in a more versatile system. 

Displacemt becomes more important IB not because you NEED more but because efficiency down low is increased so much that you WANT more since you're able to exploit the 20-30hz range like never before and with little power. 

Running more displacement also means you can run them lower and louder instead if having to limit the low end to get the desired output. I've been running my 15s full tilt with no subsonic for years. I have to admit I recently started running a 20hz/6db filter because I found lots of cone movement on some songs that was inaudible but it could be "sensed". It needlessly used up excursion. There are a coue classical compositions where I can tell a slight loss in the harmonics but overall running a shallow 20hz filter doesn't hurt too much. I also have the option of running a 30hz filter a little steeper and turning up the power all the while retaining a flatter, lower response than most sealed setups with great efficiency (for a sealed setup) while sounding stunning. 

I wish I had time to check my spelling but I'm on my phone and out of time so don't kill me over the spelling and autocorrect lol.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

Some IB installs I've seen get around the thick sound absorbing nature of seats by tiling the baffle backward so the baffle is behind the rear speaker shelf.

Then simply remove the rear speakers. This lets through all the bass and the midbass also won't get muffled. Also it lets you reverse the speakers so you don't have the motors just sticking their butts out in the trunk. Makes for a very clean install.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

qwertydude said:


> Some IB installs I've seen get around the thick sound absorbing nature of seats by tiling the baffle backward so the baffle is behind the rear speaker shelf.
> 
> Then simply remove the rear speakers. This lets through all the bass and the midbass also won't get muffled. Also it lets you reverse the speakers so you don't have the motors just sticking their butts out in the trunk. Makes for a very clean install.


Interesting. Hadn't thought about it like that. I really like that idea and it solves some other issues I would have had with a behind the seat baffle. I tore out my amp rack and battery box today. I think I am going to make a temporary IB setup with a behind the seat baffle just to get an idea of the sound and what to expect. I think even with a temp setup I can get a good enough seal and strong enough baffle to get a good idea of the sound without making any permanent mods


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## butterMilk (Jan 27, 2014)

spooney said:


> Interesting. Hadn't thought about it like that. I really like that idea and it solves some other issues I would have had with a behind the seat baffle. I tore out my amp rack and battery box today. I think I am going to make a temporary IB setup with a behind the seat baffle just to get an idea of the sound and what to expect. I think even with a temp setup I can get a good enough seal and strong enough baffle to get a good idea of the sound without making any permanent mods


For my seal I used a permanently flexible caulking type of stuff. But you can still get an awesome seal with some good duck tape. Thats how I sealed mine until it got glued shut, duck tape front and back.

Don't be stingy on the strength of the baffle tho, needs to be strong and well mounted!


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## david in germany (Oct 7, 2009)

Double baffle, bolted and sealed with sound deadener.








Gave me enough room to suspend my amp in front of the motors and keep most of my trunk space. I ran the amp at 4ohm mono (rated around 300w rms)


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

spooney said:


> Interesting. Hadn't thought about it like that. I really like that idea and it solves some other issues I would have had with a behind the seat baffle. I tore out my amp rack and battery box today. I think I am going to make a temporary IB setup with a behind the seat baffle just to get an idea of the sound and what to expect. I think even with a temp setup I can get a good enough seal and strong enough baffle to get a good idea of the sound without making any permanent mods


That's what I did at first. I did a single 12 and didn't seal anything very well, just threw it in there with a loose fitting baffle. I was amazed. The difference between the temporary setup and when I sealed it up nice was the sub bass response. I gained output in the lower region after sealing it but overall it gave me a good taste of what I was in for. 

About the direction you face the subs, for me it was a no brainer. I wanted the cone protected so anyone could toss crap in the trunk without worry of damaging the cones. I can pack luggage up against the magnets and drive normally where with the cone facing backwards you would have to keep objects away. You're using about the same amount of trunk space either way but the magnets facing the trunk should get you slightly more trunk space in most installs. 

Then there's motor noise with the motor facing the cabin. You would have to make sure your subs have a quiet motor/suspension.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Here's my first IB setup which is in my current car.





































The baffle is built from 1" baltic birch. Started off with a wood frame and then bolts the baffle board to the frame. This way the baffle was removable just in case I ever needed the folding seat pass-thru for long cargo items.



















I have not listened to a lot of IB setups for comparison, but this is definitely the most detailed subwoofer stage I've ever had. It is not the hardest hitting bass, but the ability to hit the super-low notes is striking. I'm hearing things in my music that previously were not audible, likely due to the high-pass filter effects of sealed boxes. I always did JL Audio W6 series woofers in sealed enclosures before this. Now I'm running two Dynaudio Esotar 1200s.


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## david in germany (Oct 7, 2009)

That is a really nice looking install!


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks again to everybody for their input and pictures. This is sounding and looking more and more like what I want to do. Lots of great knowledge here on this forum. I may have to change my homepage.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

i have used (but not in this order) these subwoofers; aurasound NS15 x2, image dynamics IDQ15v2 x2, image dynamics IDMax v3 x2, incriminator audio flatlyne 18 x2

i have listened to quite a few IB installs over the years - and i can say they often have the most smooth and versatile bass out of any conventional enclosure with the least work. the stiffer the baffle, the better you will be. in my expierence, car seat foam can be a help, and it can be a hinderance. in the honda civic and saturn sl2, there was almost zero difference with the seats up or down. it may be different based on the platform and the install.

also, you do not need to seal the baffle to the car permanently or make anything permanent! use nuts+bolts and gaskets. if you want to use something like silicone, lay down some type of aluminum foil tape where it will adhere to make it easily removeable later. just seal everything up as best you can between the front and the back - if its not 100% - it wont make a huge deal.

i say go for it. post pictures of your trunk without the seats and the carpet in there and we can give you some ideas.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)




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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

req said:


>


Those are all great looking setups man . Which did you like the best?


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

So I yanked the seat out and some of the carpet and got a real good idea of how to start this off (did not get any pics though, very limited work time) . At this point I don't think I will even try a temp setup. I am just gonna go for it !!! Got a measurement I believe is going to work well for the main baffle and once that is completed I will have to work on trimming out the sides and making it look respectable although the front will not ever be visible. Probably will be a real slow going build as every night the seats will need to be back in so I can load up the two car seats for the kids. Pretty excited to try this out though.


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## butterMilk (Jan 27, 2014)

spooney said:


> So I yanked the seat out and some of the carpet and got a real good idea of how to start this off (did not get any pics though, very limited work time) . At this point I don't think I will even try a temp setup. I am just gonna go for it !!! Got a measurement I believe is going to work well for the main baffle and once that is completed I will have to work on trimming out the sides and making it look respectable although the front will not ever be visible. Probably will be a real slow going build as every night the seats will need to be back in so I can load up the two car seats for the kids. Pretty excited to try this out though.


You're going to love it man!

Just a heads up, something I would have probably done differently. I think I would have used rivet nuts instead of self tapping screws. Or I guess if the self tappers ever fail I could drill out the hole to the appropriate size and use the rivet nut. Ahhh I'm just thinking out loud, I don't even know how you plan on securing it


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

Rivet nuts - I totally agree.

Or t-nuts in the wood and bolts.

Use a bit of loctite on the threads.

I think the auradound ns15 prolly sounded the best, but it wasn't my car so I can't say for sure.

Just take your time make sure its as sturdy as you can possibly make it. I would recommend using thick higher grade plywood with as many layers (ply) as you can find. Its lighter weight and usually stronger that MDF. You can also laminate two pieces together with wood glue and it will bond really well.

Good luck. Take lots of pictures!


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Hmm not familiar with rivet nuts but I imagine they are exactly what they sound like. I have 3 solid areas where I think I can through bolt the baffle to parts of the car. I was thinking last night and I need to mock up the baffle before I get cutting. With a little extra work there I can minimize the work needed to trim out the sides.


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## Thrill_House (Nov 20, 2008)

Im just curious, have any of you guys running IB ever metered your cars? Im curious to see what type of spl numbers they can yield.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

i put up mid 145 on the term lab with a pair of IDQ15's in my GTi on a memphis big belle at 2 ohms (800w?)

they can make noise. usually they are (in my expierence) a tad quieter than a sealed box.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Depends on the frequency but IB has the same output for a given displacement. Sealed can sound louder with it's missing low end and really putting the power to it in the 40-50hz range.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Well I went and bought some nice plywood and a few other supplies yesterday. Hoping I can mock up the baffle out of cardboard and have the actual baffle cut this weekend . Try to get some pics as it's happens .


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Thrill_House said:


> Im just curious, have any of you guys running IB ever metered your cars? Im curious to see what type of spl numbers they can yield.


145 @ 22hz

2 JBL GTO 15's & a JL 600/4


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

I know it doesn't look like much but this little piece of cardboard helped me out a bunch. I now have the basic size I need for my baffle and have a good idea of how I can trim it out to seal things up nicely. While in the car today I rerouted some wiring that would have been in the way of the baffle and also threw in a little temp setup that I can easily move when needed to get work done . I am getting pretty good at yanking out both car seats and removing the back seats and reinstalling everything in a timely fashion.


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## DBlevel (Oct 6, 2006)

I don't think I would do anything different as long as I can run an IB setup in a vehicle. 

I have been very impressed with the IB setup so far!


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Another quick question for you IB users....... How much power are you running in your setups? I am hoping the efficiency is going to be good enough with the new setup that I can ditch my dual batteries or at least one of them because I won't need 2000 watts of amplifier to get the subs moving.


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## kaigoss69 (Apr 2, 2008)

gregerst22 said:


> But with a single Max15 it eats up 1200w and seems like it could take more. it's a beast.


Whaaaat? 

Are you sure you're giving it the full 1200W?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

spooney said:


> Another quick question for you IB users....... How much power are you running in your setups? I am hoping the efficiency is going to be good enough with the new setup that I can ditch my dual batteries or at least one of them because I won't need 2000 watts of amplifier to get the subs moving.


With every IB setup I've run, 500w was always plenty to get them moving well. Even some that a lot of people say aren't efficient like the 13W7 looked like it was near its 32mm one way xmax with 500w on it and that's a lot of output. Imagine 1,000w pushing a pair of 13W7s to or slightly past xmax. 

On only 250w my 12W6 was way past xmax and making me nervous with the amount of excursion. I remember feeding them 600w each and getting less excursion and less output in the sealed box. 

If you're coming from sealed, excursion determines output so if they can hit the same excursion with half the power, they will have the same output at half the power. 

At some point, usually starting around 50hz the efficiency between sealed and IB is pretty close and output per watt will be about the same. The sealed box causes a loss in damping, less cone control and with the resulting overshoot of the cone you can end up with more output from a sealed box in the upper bass range. I personally don't want to get my output from cone overshoot and since 50-60hz being played by a large sub requires little power anyway. It's the really low sub bass that requires a lot of power and that's where IB shines.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

gregerst22 said:


> You can certainly get by with less power in IB. With my IB15's I could easily run them both off 700w. But with a single Max15 it eats up 1200w and seems like it could take more. it's a beast.


Wow, my IB15s have a ton of excursion with a single 750/1 on both. I would be afraid of using the 1200/1 on them. Are you running a subsonic? On the low material, in the 30hz and slightly below I have to be getting close to their xmech. Now with a subsonic around 30hz I could run more power to them but they're only rated at 500w thermally. 

Did you mean 700w for both, 350w each? I just woke up so I'm a little slow right now. After reading it again it looks like this is what you meant. So the Max will take 1200w IB? Is there a ton of excursion?


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm running 1000W to two Dynaudio Esotar 1200s and can barely see them move.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

I officially started the build today! Got the main baffle completed and snapped a few pics along the way


Here is my temp amp install until I can get the baffle in



Other Randomness

Baffles cut down to size:



First baffle cut: 



And the second cut with glue on it ready for lamination:



Two become one:



Test fitting the sub:



The real test fit. It actually fits in the car!!! :


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

gregerst22 said:


> Looks like pretty good progress so far! trunk and baffle looks relatively straight forward. that can make things easier.


Thanks man. In the end their will be a trim panel which trims out the the rear part of the baffle a little better. The tricky part is going to be the doing the panels on the side on the front part of the baffle that will seal the baffle to the sheet metal behind the seat back. Originally I was going to make the front of the baffle look pretty too but nobody is ever going to see that so I am going for functionality over beauty there now. Amp setup is going to be a mess until I get this finished and sounding how I want.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Anyone ever tried an old Mk1 Brahma in IB? 4 arm basket style.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subterFUSE said:


> I'm running 1000W to two Dynaudio Esotar 1200s and can barely see them move.


That doesn't sound right. Are you running a subsonic?
Are you sure they're getting 1,000w. Output cant be good if you can barely see them move unless you're talking >50hz. Every sub I've ever run IB has had a lot of excursion with just 500w, 250w to each. 1,000w even in a small sealed box would get them moving pretty good so it makes no sense why there would so little excursion IB. Something is wrong.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

BuickGN said:


> That doesn't sound right. Are you running a subsonic?
> Are you sure they're getting 1,000w. Output cant be good if you can barely see them move unless you're talking >50hz. Every sub I've ever run IB has had a lot of excursion with just 500w, 250w to each. 1,000w even in a small sealed box would get them moving pretty good so it makes no sense why there would so little excursion IB. Something is wrong.


I think this might have something to do with impedance. When I had my type Rs IB, I had the same issue. And they were running off a brx2000. If you look at impedance plots, some subs will peak as high as 30 or even 40 ohms. If you think of how much power your amp puts out at 4 ohms compared to at 1 ohm, your "1000watts" probably just turned into 100. I don't know. Just a theory.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

>


just to be clear, you are going to be sealing the trunk on the left\right of the baffle and the rear deck, right?

i have 900w on tap for each of my 18's, but i highly doubt they see that when the gain is at minimum and they are set WAY down in the DSP haha. most of the time i cant tell if they are moving, but i sure can hear them. i love it.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

req said:


> just to be clear, you are going to be sealing the trunk on the left\right of the baffle and the rear deck, right?
> 
> i have 900w on tap for each of my 18's, but i highly doubt they see that when the gain is at minimum and they are set WAY down in the DSP haha. most of the time i cant tell if they are moving, but i sure can hear them. i love it.


Oh yeah it will be sealed off for sure. I will take pics once I really get going . There will be some panels in front of the baffle on either side that will extend to the sheet metal near the seat back. Also need to seal off a whole bunch of little holes here and there with deadener and or deadened sheet metal.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> That doesn't sound right. Are you running a subsonic?
> Are you sure they're getting 1,000w. Output cant be good if you can barely see them move unless you're talking >50hz. Every sub I've ever run IB has had a lot of excursion with just 500w, 250w to each. 1,000w even in a small sealed box would get them moving pretty good so it makes no sense why there would so little excursion IB. Something is wrong.


I have the crossover set band pass from 20Hz to 70Hz at 24 slope.
Gains set with oscilloscope and -10dB overlap test signal @ 40Hz.
There is plenty of bass, but it's not the heavy hitting kind. It's just a really deep and smooth kind of bass. But the cones don't really look like they are moving that much. Then again I am used to having JL Audio subs that have a lot of excursion, so maybe these Dynaudios just don't have as much excursion?


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## vulgamore89 (Oct 27, 2013)

Anybody ever tried a single idq12v3 IB?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subterFUSE said:


> I have the crossover set band pass from 20Hz to 70Hz at 24 slope.
> Gains set with oscilloscope and -10dB overlap test signal @ 40Hz.
> There is plenty of bass, but it's not the heavy hitting kind. It's just a really deep and smooth kind of bass. But the cones don't really look like they are moving that much. Then again I am used to having JL Audio subs that have a lot of excursion, so maybe these Dynaudios just don't have as much excursion?


Your output is solely determined by excursion and cone area. Only excursion, power doesn't matter, only excursion. Those Dyns have more mechanical excursion than say, a 12W6. Efficiency is just as good or better. At 1,000w you should be pushing them near their 29mm one way limit. Either they're not getting full power or there's a filter somewhere cutting the low end. Maybe the amp or the processor?

Something tells me you're going to be pleasantly surprised by the subs once you get to the bottom of it. The 1200 subs I've heard even in a sealed box hit hard and dug deep when needed. They should be even better IB.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Got a little more work done today:

Here is a shot of the area on the side that needs to be sealed up in front of the baffle:



This shot is just showing how tight the baffle fits against the rear deck :



Mocking up the sides:



Sides cut out and attached prior to sanding :



Had to sand this little notch into the bottom of the baffle to fit over a funky little ridge in the floor :



Sanded up a bit and ready for a test fit : 



Fits in there about like I expected . Maybe a little better :


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Open to suggestions here on how to attach the sides and seal them to the sheet metal.





I have a couple ideas. First idea is to bolt a few layers of wood to the back side of the sheet metal and then bolt the sides into that using t-nuts. I think this will add a lot more strength than my next idea. 

Next idea is to bolt deadened sheet metal to the front side of the existing sheet metal and then tie the side panels into this sheet metal some how. Probably bolted with some angle iron.

Any ideas on this please chime in. 


Seats back in. Done for the next couple of days:


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Those of you running IB, do you have or how do you stop the 'angry gorilla in the trunk' symptom?

Josh


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

the trunk rattles much less with IB than with a sealed or ported box in my expierence.

as far as your sides spooney, it is coming along nice.










i would get some scrap wood, or maybe 2x4's and glue\screw them togehter, then attach them on the outboard side of your triange pieces. then you can affix the baffle to these using whatever hardware you want. you dont have to bother with sheet metal unless its easier or more convienent for you. you can just seal with deadener+1\4" boards then cover with carpet.

either way, i think you are going to be one happy camper.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

req said:


> the trunk rattles much less with IB than with a sealed or ported box in my expierence.
> 
> as far as your sides spooney, it is coming along nice.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input man. I was planning to beef up those side pieces (the "triangles") a bit. I have access to free aluminum and plenty of ways to cut it at work but I think the thickness of the wood is going to help strengthen it more. I also plan on adding some sort of brace to the middle of the baffle between the drivers. One more good day or two of woodworking/strengthening the baffle and I think I will be ready to seal it up and get playing! I am hoping to assemble it in a way where I can just un bolt a few things and pull the baffle out if I wanna change drivers.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

moparman1 said:


> I think this might have something to do with impedance. When I had my type Rs IB, I had the same issue. And they were running off a brx2000. If you look at impedance plots, some subs will peak as high as 30 or even 40 ohms. If you think of how much power your amp puts out at 4 ohms compared to at 1 ohm, your "1000watts" probably just turned into 100. I don't know. Just a theory.


I am running the whole system with an Audison Voce AV5.1k which is a 5 channel amp.

The sub channel is rated:
600w @ 4 ohms or 1000w @ 2 ohms

dyn subs are 4 ohm SVC. wired parallel I should be getting a 2 ohm load.

It is a class D sub channel. I am wondering if you are correct about the amp not really delivering the 1000w, or maybe the impedance curve is affecting it? The Dynaudio manual shows an impedance compensation circuit for the sub, but I did not bother with it. The plot they show has the compensation only affecting the impedance way above my crossover point of 70 Hz.

I should be able to check impedance with a multimeter, correct?
Can I check the impedance of the subs in parallel by just hooking up the multimeter to the speaker wires after I unhook them from the amp?


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> Your output is solely determined by excursion and cone area. Only excursion, power doesn't matter, only excursion. Those Dyns have more mechanical excursion than say, a 12W6. Efficiency is just as good or better. At 1,000w you should be pushing them near their 29mm one way limit. Either they're not getting full power or there's a filter somewhere cutting the low end. Maybe the amp or the processor?
> 
> Something tells me you're going to be pleasantly surprised by the subs once you get to the bottom of it. The 1200 subs I've heard even in a sealed box hit hard and dug deep when needed. They should be even better IB.


No filters. BitOne crossover set from 20Hz to 70Hz @24 dB slope Linkwitz.
Connected to Voce amp with AV bit In digital connection. That means the amps internal crossovers are bypassed. Everything gets controlled on the BitOne.
I have not applied any EQ to the subs yet.

I will look further into this tomorrow. Thanks for the info, I do appreciate it and really enjoy learning more about audio at every opportunity.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Extent of my work for today. Just snagged some hardware for bolting in the baffle and other things to the car.


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## mikechec9 (Dec 1, 2006)

My question has to do with control.

The first thing that most bring to mention is that IB requires less power to attain a given output at low frequency. And that, in fact, too much power will cause a driver to basically unload due to over excursion (no box suspension to maintain compliance). Scott B. has had numerous IB installs (well, at least two) where he responsibly uses considerably higher than rms power in order to control the behavior of the subs. This _seems_ to suggest that transient response becomes an issue with IB configurations. The one IB install that I did hear personally (2 Dyn 192’s) played effortlessly low and musical even at low volume. But they did not sound particularly tight or incredibly controlled. 

Conversely I have a sealed 10w7 on 1k that plays low and authoritative, but not as humbly as the IB I heard. So, in anyone else’s experience is this where additional power might come into play? Does it help to provide a tighter more controlled IB response?


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## david in germany (Oct 7, 2009)

spooney said:


> Extent of my work for today. Just snagged some hardware for bolting in the baffle and other things to the car.


You are off to a great start! By the way, that A.D.S. looks nice! I had PQ20 in one of my installs, such a nice clean amp.:rockon:


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

IB gives more cone control than sealed so if control were not an issue sealed it won't be IB. I do believe in running considerably more than the rms rating though, for dynamics, not for control.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

david in germany said:


> You are off to a great start! By the way, that A.D.S. looks nice! I had PQ20 in one of my installs, such a nice clean amp.:rockon:


Thanks man! That's a PQ 10 sitting there. Nice little amp. Will probably run it bridged on my front stage. Even running only two channels it did fairly well. Real nice sound to it.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

At some point I am going to have to make an actual build log thread. Getting way more pics than I had anticipated. Here is what I worked on today ............


In these two pics I am marking the sheet metal in the car to get a rough idea of where I want these boards that are mating up with the sides of the baffle to lay:





After marking out the sheet metal I get a rough idea of how big those boards need to be so I got to cutting. The pieces fit but not exactly how I want :



The top most hole in this next pic is at a different angle than the rest of the sheet metal and the bottom is hitting my side pieces and causing them to not lay flat:



To get past those indentations in the sheet metal I had to remove some material from my side panels. A 1.25" spade bit made quick work of this . I slotted the holes a bit to give myself some room for adjustment:



Fitting much better now :



Both sides tacked on :



Shot of the 2x4 bracing/support that will attach to the side panels and stiffen up the sides of the baffle as well:



This was going to be my center brace for the baffle but it needs some work: 



If I stay with the 2x4 brace it will be made a bit taller and notched out at the bottom over that funny ridge in the trunk floor. With the brace done like that I can tie it into the rear deck and add some brackets on the floor at the base of it. I am also throwing around the idea of doing a steel brace. Just need to find the right material. Notice at the top of the side baffle board there is an "open " spot. This will be taken care of. Just need to add a block of wood at either side on the top there. Those little blocks will make the entire baffle very tight to the sheet metal back there and should make for a nice seal once everything is all together. 

Keep in mind this stuff is all a dry fit. Nothing has been bolted into place yet and I need to get my hands on some deadener so I can start sealing everything up. I am hoping to have this playing this weekend but I am not sure if I will get that much working time on it.


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## moparman1 (Jan 16, 2014)

Looks great so far. Good job.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

moparman1 said:


> Looks great so far. Good job.


Thanks mopar! I appreciate it.


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## mikechec9 (Dec 1, 2006)

Looks like you're in the home stretch. Should be a fortuitous weekend. Look forward to hearing you're opinion on the outcome.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Got a few pics for you guys when I get home. Got some important stuff done yesterday but doesnt look like much in terms of pics. Actually have some stuff bolted to the car now. Missed or lost a few pics somewhere along the way.


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## Mike Bober (Apr 11, 2013)

i will be trying to stuff two 15" Alpine Type R's in a new Camaro this week if i can squeeze them into an IB setup...They are a bit larger than i thought so i will have to see what i can do...hahaha


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Finally got a little more time to work on it plus here is a few pics from the other day:

Holes drilled in the rear deck for bolting the baffle in :



Holes drilled through the baffle for bolting onto the car:



Test fitting to make sure the holes all line up and also the side pieces have been bolted to the car in this pic:



Better shot of the side pieces bolted to the car. Used some butyl tape between the wood and sheet metal to stop any potential rattles: 



Was a few more pics from that day that got lost. That same day I glued and screwed my side pieces together before they were bolted into the car.

And here are pics of yesterdays work........

Baffle out of the car and a nice glue bead laid down for the center brace:



Center brace now glued and screwed to the baffle:



Glue laid down for carpeting the only part of the baffle that will be visible:



Glue on the carpet as well for a good bond:



Carpet on the baffle :



Getting ready to do the cutouts:



Finished carpet job:



Test fitted once again now that the carpet and bracing is installed:



That was it for yesterday. Picking away at it two hours at a time here and there . Sometimes maybe only an hour of work. Next chance I get to work on it though the baffle will finally be bolted into the car!! . Then just some sealing from there so I can get it playing.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

hell yeah man! 

that looks awesome!


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

req said:


> hell yeah man!
> 
> that looks awesome!


Thanks sir. I appreciate it! It will be playing this upcoming week even if its not totally sealed yet.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Finally have it in and playing!!! Not totally sealed up yet but so far I like it. Here are some pics of the last bit of progress I made ...............

Weather stripping added where the baffle will mate up with the car :



Baffle back in and bolts in place. This was a REAL tight fit with the carpeted baffle and trunk carpet back in place. Literally had to climb into the trunk and kick it into place:



Photo showing a couple of the bolts tightened and their hiding spots out of the way:



Sides of the baffle screwed into my 2x4 side panels with some heavy duty wood screws:



Weather stripping added around one of the holes where the seat locks into place. I can't totally seal this up but I had to do the best I could:



One sub mounted ! :



Both subs mounted and center brace secured to floor. Used steel brackets adhered to the sheet metal with some heavy duty industrial epoxy. These brackets will not move unless I want them too. I would have bolted to the floor here but the gas tank is directly underneath:



View from the back. Please excuse the wiring mess. I had like 2 minutes to get this wired up after getting all the equipment in and the car put back together:



So thats where it sits as of now. I like it already. I still don't care for the sound of these subs but they sound worlds better in this alignment than they did sealed. The subs will be swapped out as soon as I can afford it but they still sound good for now. I have a little sealing left to do and then possibly make a trim panel for the rear and then the next project will be an amp rack tucked into the sidewall of the trunk


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

gregerst22 said:


> Nice! How does it sound?


So far so good. Even though I am far from sealed up it plays most music well and I am getting some nice output from only 500 watts on the pair of subs. I will say that I don't like these particular drivers.......they seem to hit their limits quicker than they should and don't sound very graceful once you get there or even approach it. They have done this no matter which way I ran them (sealed,ported,IB) . As soon as I can afford to do so these drivers will be replaced. They sound better than they ever have though in this install so I know it has potential. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the setup sounds about the same regardless of seat position which was a big concern at first. So glad I did it though.


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## dragnix (Aug 1, 2006)

req said:


>


I don't mean to threadjack but do you know approx the dimension of the baffle here? I ask because I have an 02 civic and I know this build was on the same car (this one may be a sedan though)

Great stuff though Spooney, hope mine can look as good once done lol


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

I changed my mind about the sound of these subs this afternoon. I swapped in an MTX Thunder 2300X for the Kicker Impulse 1252xi I had in there and WOW what a difference. They sound so much better now. Perhaps I was over driving that kicker amp or the difference in power worked some kind of magic(the MTX is about twice the power of the Kicker) but man the MTX amp makes this setup sound worlds better and much louder. I pretty much have the sound I have been looking for for quite some time and I am not even all the way sealed up yet and have no big bulky enclosure stealing my trunk space. I only see it getting better. I will probably still swap subs because I am that guy that likes to change stuff constantly but these drivers sound pretty nice right now!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

dragnix said:


> I don't mean to threadjack but do you know approx the dimension of the baffle here? I ask because I have an 02 civic and I know this build was on the same car (this one may be a sedan though)
> 
> Great stuff though Spooney, hope mine can look as good once done lol


unfortunately no. that car is in new orleans now, and got in a car accident recently. all the equipment is being removed. i am not sure what he is doing with the baffle. if you want it - there is a slight possibility i can contact him and see if he would be willing to sell\ship it to you?



spooneydude said:


> So far so good. Even though I am far from sealed up it plays most music well and I am getting some nice output from only 500 watts on the pair of subs. I will say that I don't like these particular drivers.......they seem to hit their limits quicker than they should and don't sound very graceful once you get there or even approach it. They have done this no matter which way I ran them (sealed,ported,IB) . As soon as I can afford to do so these drivers will be replaced. They sound better than they ever have though in this install so I know it has potential. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the setup sounds about the same regardless of seat position which was a big concern at first. So glad I did it though.


right on spooney! glad you can join the cult of the infinetly baffeled!!! it does sound like you were over-driving the amp into clipping and thats why it was sounding like poopy. now that you have a bit of headroom it looks like you are good to go!

glad we could help!


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

JoshHefnerX said:


> Anyone ever tried an old Mk1 Brahma in IB? 4 arm basket style.


I _just_ got my Mk1 12" back from PSI, and after telling him I wanted an OEM recone, I mentioned doing IB...he stopped in his tracks, and suggested a stiffer spider.

I haven't put power on it yet, but I wish I had a woofer tester to put on it and see how it ends up, once I've broken it in.

Eric


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Nismo said:


> I _just_ got my Mk1 12" back from PSI, and after telling him I wanted an OEM recone, I mentioned doing IB...he stopped in his tracks, and suggested a stiffer spider.
> 
> I haven't put power on it yet, but I wish I had a woofer tester to put on it and see how it ends up, once I've broken it in.
> 
> Eric


That sucks, I wonder how it's going to effect efficiency. I can't see a need for a stiffer spider as long as the owner knows to be careful with excursion. The IB15s are so loose I thought they forgot the spider lol.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't know, and that's why I would love to break it in a bit, and test it. I didn't think it needed it per the Adire documentation, but Dave @ PSI is like a brother (and former teammate) to a close friend of mine. Both suggested it highly, knowing what I wanted to do.

Eric


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## dragnix (Aug 1, 2006)

req said:


> unfortunately no. that car is in new orleans now, and got in a car accident recently. all the equipment is being removed. i am not sure what he is doing with the baffle. if you want it - there is a slight possibility i can contact him and see if he would be willing to sell\ship it to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that would be more trouble for him and myself, but thank you though. I'll just wing it and hopefully it comes out as good as Spooney's

One question though, in the sedan, did you mount the baffle to the frame of the car using the sheet metal that separates the trunk and the cabin?


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

So I knew that I had some holes lurking underneath the rear deck carpeting and trim so I tore everything apart this weekend and found some gaping holes!!!!



There was a hole this size on either side towards the front of the rear deck and in the back two even larger holes. Didn't get any pics of how I sealed them up but it was all deadener and man did it make a difference. Bass is a lot tighter and has more punch/kick than it did previously. I am really liking this IB thing


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

I know this thread is old but hey its still a work in progress so here we go. So I am that guy that needs to change stuff up even when I am happy . The phoenix golds were starting to sound better to me but I just had to see what else was out there. Thanks to the suggestions of the great guys on this forum and my small budget at the time I purchased a pair of Pyle blue wave 15's. Not as loud as the PG's but when used within their limits these Pyle's actually sound really good. Nice and smooth . Really like the sound of these subs. Nice and tight when they need to be and nice and smooth on the lows. 





As you can see these were running off of my temp amp setup. I was really in the hunt for a 5 channel of some sort and I got an amazing deal on this amp here :



Snagged myself a Hifonics zxi60.4+1K . Not the greatest of the 5 channels but for what I paid I have not one complaint. I had to replace the rca inputs on it and a switch as well as fab up some mounting feet but for 50 bucks shipped I couldn't really go wrong . Amp install is still far from complete but this is the amp I plan on being in the install when its all said and done.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

So I had the Pyles in for a few weeks and still really like the sound but I also had this Dayton Titanic MKIII laying around so on a whim I got down and threw this one in by itself. 





I just fabbed up a little board to cover the other hole to give this one a shot. It sounds ok but the upper bass isn't as strong as with the Pyles however the lows are about equal. I will probably re install the Pyles next chance I get unless I find another pair of subs for a good price


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## crosspug (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm loving the swapping and changing in this. Someone after my own heart.

Congrats on all the successful work!


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## Silver-n-black (Nov 2, 2012)

Some great information. Im trying to figure out which IB setup i'm going to run. Keep on changing sub and let us know how they sound.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Try the boston g2 next

Or the JBL GTO


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

I have IB and thinking of going sealed or ported dual 12" illusions..............


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

^^. Thank God


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^. Lol.


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## Silver-n-black (Nov 2, 2012)

Feedback on how the jlw7 does on IB?


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## J.novak (Jan 18, 2014)

Silver-n-black said:


> Feedback on how the jlw7 does on IB?



Talk to BuickGN. He's very fond of both the W6 and W7 in ib.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Yep. They sound very nice.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> Yep. They sound very nice.


How much power would you recommend for 2 x 13W7 in a trunk baffle, with a trunk volume of 14.1 cuft?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I haven't done anything with mine for a long time. I've had the IDMax 15s looking at me for almost a month now. I finally got to work on them today and as soon as the baffle glue is dry, one of them is going in the car. The other I still have to send back for repair. At least they're fixing it for free including shipping and even replacing the dustcap that I dimpled like a dumbass. Part of me wants to say screw it and try to fix it now so I can have the pair going tonight. 

I can't get that sound out of my head, I think I'm going to like them better than the IB15s even if they're not as accurate but time will tell. I'm definitely glad I have 9" midbasses with these. It's definitely a different experience for sure. I don't know how two subs can sound so different yet both sound good. 

Displacement is damn near double the IB15s so unless I decide to upgrade my electrical and run over 2,000w I don't think I'll bother with a subsonic. I will miss freaking people out with the IB15s playing 4khz though. I don't know what inductance is on the Max 15 but I don't think it's too horrible since it does play 1khz easily on tones. Definitely not in the same league as the IB15 though. 

Didn't someone hit 145db on 750w total with these? With the displacement I might cut down to a single to save weight and space.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subterFUSE said:


> How much power would you recommend for 2 x 13W7 in a trunk baffle, with a trunk volume of 14.1 cuft?


In my trunk I ran a single most of the time and at 500w it was probably close to it's 32mm xmax. So I would say 1,000w total would get stupid loud and use most of their linear displacement without leaving too much on the table. 

One thing, the 13W7 has over 50mm one way excursion before mechanical damage so you could more than likely put their full thermal rating to them as long as they don't dip below 20hz. You're absolutely not going to hurt them with any reasonable power. 

They get plenty loud off if 250w each but I wouldn't run under 500w each because they sound better the more power you give them and you're not leaving a lot of output on the table.

So basically 500w each all the way up to close to their thermal rating. 

Any boominess they may have had sealed will be gone. They will have a very quick, snappy response and dig deep with ease. One of the all time best sounding subs I've heard. 

I'm probably out of line saying this so take it with a grain of salt but so far I've preferred subs with a wide flat BL curve and a great suspension. Could be coincidence. There's something I can't put my finger on but these types of subs make me feel the music more, emotionally. My IB15s sounded great and they were so accurate and just technically perfect yet I prefer the "inferior" or less accurate sound of the Max15 so far. The W7 is very good with this, a great balance between warmth and accuracy. It was very hard for me to not go with another pair of W7s but I made myself try something new. 

Sorry I've rambled on, I probably should have stopped at how much power to feed them lol.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

gregerst22 said:


> I've tried the GTO15. I may have had a bad sub but I thought it was horrible.


Bad sub

Had to be lol


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

xxx_busa said:


> I have IB and thinking of going sealed or ported dual 12" illusions..............


Wow.....thinking of downgrading some...huh?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Wow.....thinking of downgrading some...huh?



Considering it's the worst sub I've ever tuned on and especially IB, anything would be an upgrade from the dyn subs

Mark has good ears and can buy anything he wants. Guess what? He wants the illusions. Lmao!!

I see you're still butthurt that orca wouldn't let u be a dealer Jerry?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I can understand not everyone loving the same thing but hating the 1200s? That seems a little extreme considering everyone seems to love them. I have never owned one but I've heard them and was very impressed. 

The TL has never been as easy for me to get the subs to sound just right. My GN seemed to sound great no matter what I put in it. The TL has always required work for me. Did you tune the car before the Dyns? I remember Mark saying he really liked them. That's a far cry from the worst sub ever.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> In my trunk I ran a single most of the time and at 500w it was probably close to it's 32mm xmax. So I would say 1,000w total would get stupid loud and use most of their linear displacement without leaving too much on the table.
> 
> One thing, the 13W7 has over 50mm one way excursion before mechanical damage so you could more than likely put their full thermal rating to them as long as they don't dip below 20hz. You're absolutely not going to hurt them with any reasonable power.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure I will trade up my Dyns or not, but just tossing around some ideas. I really like the sound of my Dyns. They are very accurate and definitely hit deep notes that I've not experienced before in any of my previous systems. (Always used JL W6 series subs in previous 3 cars)
But I'm not getting the same visceral effect that my previous systems with JL subs delivered.

Put simply, the Dyns sound great but don't hit very hard.
Since I listen primarily to house music, I find myself wanting more punch to my bass. Don't get me wrong, I want accuracy first.... but I want a little bit more impact to the bass than I'm getting now.

Maybe a different amplifier on the Dyns would make a difference?

Like I have said, I'm running an Audison AV5.1k currently. While it is rated at 1000W @ 2ohms for the sub channel, I don't think I'm driving the Dyns anywhere close to Xmax. They honestly look like they are barely moving when I look at them playing. Maybe my eyes are failing, though... LOL. I should make a video perhaps.

Granted, I am still learning how to tune everything. I've checked the impedance on the subs and they are wired correctly, registering 2 ohms on the multimeter. Gains were set with AutoSound 2000 CD & oscilloscope, using -5dB overlap for the horns and midbass and -10dB overlap for the subs. I'm getting more proficient with REW. I do find myself dialing back the subwoofer level in the BitOne control panel. The volume is there, just not the punch. Is that a displacement issue?


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Their super low distortion design is probably the issue. I loved the dyn's i got to audition, but they do sound a bit sterile. I feel the same about the w6v2. 

You made need a driver with a bit more "spunk" 

Something like the JBL MKII or the w7

If you want to keep the dyn's, maybe some sort of vented alignment would help?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

This is exactly why I got rid of the IB15s and went with the Max15s. The others did everything so well. So accurate yet there was something missing. Maybe it's distortion lol. 

I would at least try a different amp before going with the W7s. 1000w should have both of those Dyns at or past xmax. I also agree that a ported box might be better if you don't mind giving up some trunk space but something isn't right if they're barely moving with that kind of power.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

BigRed said:


> Considering it's the worst sub I've ever tuned on and especially IB, anything would be an upgrade from the dyn subs
> 
> Mark has good ears and can buy anything he wants. Guess what? He wants the illusions. Lmao!!
> 
> I see you're still butthurt that orca wouldn't let u be a dealer Jerry?


Haven't given a second thought about ORCA, Jim. I asked twice and was told I'd be contacted and never was, no big deal.

I just notice that you seem to jump to the latest and greatest and tout that it is the greatest. It's hard for me to believe someone who is always changing brands and that brand is now "the best". Did they patent some new technology that I am not aware of?

Maybe if Mark is willing to do Illusions in sealed enclosures, maybe he should try the Dyns in sealed enclosures. The work well in IB, but would sound very different sealed. Maybe that is the sound he is looking for. Or maybe he just wants to try something new and different.




subterFUSE said:


> I'm not sure I will trade up my Dyns or not, but just tossing around some ideas. I really like the sound of my Dyns. They are very accurate and definitely hit deep notes that I've not experienced before in any of my previous systems. (Always used JL W6 series subs in previous 3 cars)
> But I'm not getting the same visceral effect that my previous systems with JL subs delivered.
> 
> Put simply, the Dyns sound great but don't hit very hard.
> Since I listen primarily to house music, I find myself wanting more punch to my bass. Don't get me wrong, I want accuracy first.... but I want a little bit more impact to the bass than I'm getting now.






edzyy said:


> Their super low distortion design is probably the issue. I loved the dyn's i got to audition, but they do sound a bit sterile. I feel the same about the w6v2.



The Dyns are an extremely accurate sub. The play exactly what the signal tells them to. The over accentuated "pop" that most people like is not typically in the recording (if you don't believe me, go listen to that same CD on a high-end home system). That "pop" is very fun (and partially a product of the enclosure/distortion) and although I personally really like it when I'm in the car, I can't fault the Dyns for not having an artificial "pop" in IB, especially with how low the distortion is. 

For the record, I'm not saying the Illusions are bad subs or anything like that, but I will refute all day long what Jim insinuates or plain out says about the Dyns. I personally owned/heard many of the top SQ subs and the Dyn is by far the best, IMHO!

By the way, after just installing my 1200 IB in the rear deck in my TSX vs my TL, I can already hear a significant difference in sound. So, each car/install can make any driver sound different.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I have the room for 2 x 13w7 in my existing baffle. Would just have to cut larger holes.

The more important consideration is the impedance of the w7. Dual 1.5 ohm voice coils. My current amp is only rated down to 2 ohms stable. If I understand correctly, I could run a pair of 13w7 at 6 ohms or at 1.5 ohms. 6 ohms probably won't get enough power from my amp. It's rated 600W @ 4 ohms. And I don't think it can go down to 1.5 ohms. So I probably need a different amp if I went with those subs.

How would you suggest wiring a pair of 13w7 in IB?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

gregerst22 said:


> Listening to any amount of distortion is usually very fatiguing for me. It drives me crazy. More distortion the less tolerable it is. On my recent 6 hour road trip I had no issue listening to the Max15 the entire time. It sounds great. If it's distortion it's the best I've ever heard.
> 
> If the Dyn 1200's are sterile sounding like the IB15's. He probably needs more cone area a bigger amp isn't going to give it the impact that's missing.


The Dyns I've heard weren't sterile sounding and had quite a punch. I suggest trying a different amp because they're barely moving with 1,000w to them. Something is wrong.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subterFUSE said:


> I have the room for 2 x 13w7 in my existing baffle. Would just have to cut larger holes.
> 
> The more important consideration is the impedance of the w7. Dual 1.5 ohm voice coils. My current amp is only rated down to 2 ohms stable. If I understand correctly, I could run a pair of 13w7 at 6 ohms or at 1.5 ohms. 6 ohms probably won't get enough power from my amp. It's rated 600W @ 4 ohms. And I don't think it can go down to 1.5 ohms. So I probably need a different amp if I went with those subs.
> 
> How would you suggest wiring a pair of 13w7 in IB?


I think it comes down to what you can and can't use. You're almost forced to run 6 ohm. If the amp is stable to 2ohms I doubt it would hurt anything to run it at 1.5, at least to test it out. Do you usually run it maxed out for hours or do you crank a song or two and back down to normal levels?

I'm really worried about putting the W7s in there because if you can't push the Esotars you won't be able to push the W7s either. While I love the W7, especially IB you'll be giving up a little accuracy for a little more "fun". I wish I had a better way of describing it. They have a pleasant warm sound to them. They also have the potential to get nearly twice as loud with nearly double the cone area and 2-3x the linear excursion. 

The Dyns dig low with no problem and if yours are not, especially IB I think there's a problem elsewhere. Is there a temporary amp you can hook up to the Dyns, even if it's less power than what you have now just to test? If you just want to try something new, that's fine but I think the Dyns have a lot more potential and I think the problem is going to carry over to the W7s. 

Either way I'm looking forward to a review of the 13W7s if you go with them. I absolutely loved mine.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

The reason I think something is going on with the amp or electronics is the subs barely move at 1,000w. Instead of seeing them barely moving, he should be going oh sh!t they're going to kill themselves. It can't be a displacement problem when they're barely moving and not being pushed anywhere near their displacement limits. I had a single 12W6 IB that hit extremely hard. That hit that most people talk about doesn't require a lot of displacement as a 20-30hz note would. It's up in the 40-60hz area which is why my single 12" did ok. Don't get me wrong, it had a fair bit of excursion on those hits but it was only displacement limited on the low notes. 

If the Dyns had 2" of excursion and he had the same complaint I would be all for going with the W7s.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Going to attempt to put the subs in the car. I'm working with one broken finger now, I suspect I may have more with the weight of these things. It's been nice for the past month with no subs in the car, it's a noticeable improvement in handling and even stopping and the feels so much more tossable. It's going to suck putting 100+lbs in there plus the back seats and bracing that has been sitting in the garage for the past month. I'm extremely picky about my handling balance at the limit so I'm probably going to get another set of springs made, turn up the dampers slightly, and get an alignment. 100lbs sitting at back level, great. Hopefully it's worth it in the end. 

I've gotten used to the output from the midbasses crossed a little lower than normal and it's actually adequate now. 

One thing I'm building is a couple steel strips across the front of the subs bolting into the existing bracing in case of an accident. There's no chance the wood will contain them, I wouldn't rely on the seat past 15-20mph, and I don't feel like getting decapitated by a 50lb sub. The braces are heavy but even if they only give me peace of mind it's worth it. Even worse would be if one of them hurt my fiancée.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> The reason I think something is going on with the amp or electronics is the subs barely move at 1,000w. Instead of seeing them barely moving, he should be going oh sh!t they're going to kill themselves. It can't be a displacement problem when they're barely moving and not being pushed anywhere near their displacement limits. I had a single 12W6 IB that hit extremely hard. That hit that most people talk about doesn't require a lot of displacement as a 20-30hz note would. It's up in the 40-60hz area which is why my single 12" did ok. Don't get me wrong, it had a fair bit of excursion on those hits but it was only displacement limited on the low notes.
> 
> If the Dyns had 2" of excursion and he had the same complaint I would be all for going with the W7s.


My last car had a single 12W6 in a sealed enclosure. I ran the same amplifier to it, with 1000W. Now THAT sub had some excursion. I had to be careful with it because it could move so far that it would pop the grill cover off if I pushed it hard. That single 12 had slightly more impactful bass than my pair of Dyns currently.


Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I am going to keep playing with my tune for a while, and then try testing out another amplifier maybe in the next few weeks.

I'm a little hesitant about changing amplifiers because I feel like my Audison is a really good match for my horns and midbass. That amp puts out 2 x 75W @ 4 ohms into Class A, and 2 x 140W @ 4 ohms into Class AB. So my horns are 8 ohms and they end up getting about 35 W which is about perfect. My midbass are 4 ohms so they get 140W.

I was thinking about going with Mosconi if I do make a change. The AS 200.4 could be run with 2 channels bridged into 950W for my subs, and the other 2 channels run the midbass. Then I would need something to run the horns. Maybe an A-Class or AS100.2? Those are more powerful than my Audison, however. Might be too much power for my horns?

Might be opening a can of worms...
I really liked the idea of having a single amplifier to run my whole system. Nice and simple.

There are a couple of competition events coming up soon that I want to attend, just to meet and hear some other people and their cars. Will be good to compare my subs to others. Maybe they are just fine and I need to get accustomed to the way they sound?


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

How much cone area can you fit on a baffle? 

Can you get 2 15's in there? Or an 18? Or better yet, 2 18's? 

If so, I'd take a hard look at the Incriminator Flatlyne 

Flatlyne Series Subwoofer

Btw, regarding amp change. 

IMO, the best 4 channel for pro stuff is the JL HD 600/4 since it'll give you 300 x 2 bridged @ 8 ohms in a tiny tiny package.


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

Silver-n-black said:


> Some great information. Im trying to figure out which IB setup i'm going to run. Keep on changing sub and let us know how they sound.


I just purchased a pair of the Dayton Audio IB series 15's I will let everyone know what I think once I get them installed


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## spooney (Nov 5, 2010)

edzyy said:


> Try the boston g2 next
> 
> Or the JBL GTO


Those were actually the two subs I had it narrowed down to until I got the chance to see a Dayton Audio IB15 in person today and snag it for a discount at the Parts Express Midwest Audio Fest today. Feels like a well built driver. If the Dayton's don't do it for me one of the two you mentioned will be the next pair I buy.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

edzyy said:


> How much cone area can you fit on a baffle?
> 
> Can you get 2 15's in there? Or an 18? Or better yet, 2 18's?
> 
> ...


I came so close to getting one of the Flatlynes back before my IB15s. I even tried to cancel my order once it hit 4 months so could get a pair of those. I wanted them so had back then I think I'm going to have to give them a try one day. Just got the pain in the ass baffle in for the Max15s so I won't be putting myself through that again for hopefully a couple years.


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

edzyy said:


> How much cone area can you fit on a baffle?
> 
> Can you get 2 15's in there? Or an 18? Or better yet, 2 18's?
> 
> ...



The way my baffle is currently constructed, the largest sub I could fit is a 13W7. This would be a fairly simple install because I just need to unbolt the baffle board from the frame and cut larger holes where my Dyns are. The board could then bolt back into place.

If I wanted to fit a pair of 15" subs, I would have to rebuild the entire baffle frame. See pic below:











I guess if I went with a pair of 13W7 subs, I would be stuck with having to use a JL HD1200/1 amplifier for them because of the wacky impedance. Can the HD amps be mounted upside down without overheating?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

The good thing is the 13W7 has more displacement than a lot of 15s. They should be more than good enough.


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