# Aversion to "SPL" branded subwoofers



## POLKAT (Jan 10, 2007)

There generally seems to be a dismissive attitude towards subwoofers that come from manufacturers that are popular with the SPL crowd, such as Sundown Audio, Digital Designs, Fi, SSA, ect. for SQ purposes. Is this warranted?

I absolutely understand there are subwoofers that are made specifically for one note "burping" with mega x-max ratings. Even so, I feel there are many drivers from these companies that are well engineered, have low distortion, and are able to play quite accurately when given the chance (and proper enclosure). What does everyone else think?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Sure I agree but it would be to their advantage if they marketed, supported and targeted the SQ crowd. Simple as if they want to be known as a player get it in the peoples hands here or in the lanes. If not, then they are SPL brand


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

I'll be running a pair of custom built DD Audio 15s in my SQ build. Will also be running their amps and power supply.










These are 3015s with dry carbon cones which are stiffer and lighter than their standard cone. They're also supercharged (Neo slug on the pole piece) for increased motor force. These can be built with three different suspension options. I chose the standard suspension for these. 

Their Porsche was at KFest a couple of years ago with a 21" sub built for SQ.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Whats the sensitivity on that?


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

dcfis said:


> Whats the sensitivity on that?


She's not overly sensitive - unlike most girls.

As for the sub...no idea. DD doesn't list sensitivity specs and I don't have DATS to measure them.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Would it move if she stood on it?


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## bassfreak (Apr 11, 2007)

JI808 said:


> I'll be running a pair of custom built DD Audio 15s in my SQ build. Will also be running their amps and power supply.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dry carbon isn't stiffer


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

bassfreak said:


> dry carbon isn't stiffer


DD told me the dry carbon was stiffer/lighter than their paper cones and the gloss carbon was even lighter than the dry stuff.


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## sdm111 (Mar 25, 2012)

dcfis said:


> Sure I agree but it would be to their advantage if they marketed, supported and targeted the SQ crowd. Simple as if they want to be known as a player get it in the peoples hands here or in the lanes. If not, then they are SPL brand


SPL branded companies whatever the product (sub, amps etc) doesn't get a second look from me so I wouldn't know if they tried to make something nice


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

This is a great thread; I hope some feathers are rustled.

As mentioned, I think there's a lot of overlap. About the only thing that could benefit the SQ crowd that might be a disadvantage for the SPL crowd is any inductance-lowering shorting paths. For straight one-note SPL ideally you wouldn't use a "real" sub anyway. Something with a higher fs/smaller vas would be prefered - but I assume we're only talking about subs meant to play music.

As always, the enclosure/install is going to make or break a sub.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

It's only dismissive if you take people's word as the gospel instead of doing your own research & experimentation. I'm probably near the forefront with some of the drivers I've used and keeping the HO 10" in a small sealed enclosure as it was originally intended. :laugh: But who gives a damn??? I mean really... Once you realize that many regurgitate without actual experience, you're over it really quick. Plus, it's your setup, your money, & mostly... your discretion. How much matters beyond that? I could care less if what I use isn't being endorsed by others.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I've heard subs from spl companies sound great plenty of times. I've run them a few times in my install as well. Like it or not the big money is in spl. That doesn't mean that there aren't those subs in the lineup that happen to sound really good whether it be by design or by accident. I've said it many times on here and at SQ gatherings that if I competed it would be in spl but for daily my heart is still with sq.


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## POLKAT (Jan 10, 2007)

JI808 said:


> She's not overly sensitive - unlike most girls.
> 
> As for the sub...no idea. DD doesn't list sensitivity specs and I don't have DATS to measure them.


That is one thing I do find annoying with many SPL companies - they don't bother to list most T/S parameters. Are they hiding something or just assume their primary demographic doesn't care? Regardless, you should measure your own with a DATS even if they are published, but I like to at least be able to plug them into Win ISD and play around before I buy. 



SPLEclipse said:


> This is a great thread; I hope some feathers are rustled.
> 
> As mentioned, I think there's a lot of overlap. About the only thing that could benefit the SQ crowd that might be a disadvantage for the SPL crowd is any inductance-lowering shorting paths. For straight one-note SPL ideally you wouldn't use a "real" sub anyway. Something with a higher fs/smaller vas would be prefered - but I assume we're only talking about subs meant to play music.
> 
> As always, the enclosure/install is going to make or break a sub.


I've also noticed that SPL subwoofers generally have a higher FS than I would like to use, but it's not always the case. To the point of inductance and shorting rings, I know that Sundown and SSA use aluminum shorting rings, off the top of my head. 

The usefulness of low inductance for subwoofers is at least debatable...

the importance of low inductance in sub drivers - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum


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## Jeffdachefz (Sep 14, 2016)

Just avoid the ones with 36 fs and up, make sure they employ shorting rings in the design while being overall balanced with the TS specs and you should be golden. However most of them do need a lot more power to get loud compared to some of the more efficient SQ drivers, but with power, they do get louder. Most of these drivers are engineered to be suited for ported enclosures as well with EBP numbers well over 65 so they actually sound better in a ported than sealed. Tested quite a few and some actually sound like absolute [email protected] in sealed but sound very musical in a well tuned ported. The issue with most ported setups with spl brands is, they design the box for more efficiency and peak around tuning rather than tuning for flatter response and bandwidth giving up output so its the owner's own personal preference that is at fault, not the sub and system. Problem i see with most setups is they tune way too low, box way too big with a lot of port area causing it to become a fart machine from 25 to 40hz and none of the subs can roll off smoothly up to 100hz, things literally die out at 50-60hz

These SPL brands actually can get quite amazing bandwidth and transient response with minimal group delay in a properly done T-line. Solves the issue of the subs not playing loud enough past 60hz to blend well with the midbass. Buddy of mines specializes in T lines and every one of them wins out sealed boxes by far, some subs are inherently not T line friendly though.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Great thread. Putting things in a proper perspective the audio companies would go broke aiming at the sq crowd. At any competition how man competitors are actually entering? It’s a tiny number compared to the overall consumers out there. The people on the competition circuit know what’s out there and what needs to be done. Most people just want something that goes bump in the night. 
But to the op question there are a lot of subs out there even subs labeled spl that can accurately produce the sub stage as well as any other sub. As stated it’s about the box and install to a large degree. Sure some of the one note wonders are out there but most people know which one those are. 
But advertisers know the flash is what attracts customers and advertising big number spl subs is what attracts young buyers because that’s what we all wanted when we started. Now I love a balanced system but my first system was nothing but a ground pounder and all my friends did the same. Lets face it, this is the only place sq folks are going to get the real deal on audio.


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## Jeffdachefz (Sep 14, 2016)

Pretty detailed review of a so called spl sub.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...t-comparisons/61735-sundown-sa-12-review.html

There was a guy that competed in Meca SQ and made it to Finals with a pair of sundown zv4 15s in a ported box and did really well, competed in both SQ and SPL and took home trophies in both arenas. Literally you can do anything you want with SPL subs as long as you know what the hell you are doing enclosure wise.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Great thread.

Haven't caught up yet, but already learning a lot.

Thanks, everyone!


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

POLKAT said:


> I've also noticed that SPL subwoofers generally have a higher FS than I would like to use, but it's not always the case. To the point of inductance and shorting rings, I know that Sundown and SSA use aluminum shorting rings, off the top of my head.
> 
> The usefulness of low inductance for subwoofers is at least debatable...
> 
> the importance of low inductance in sub drivers - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum


Not sure how many people are aware, but you can contact DD Audio and have subs custom built for your application. Even their Neo-motored Z series can be built with ultra light cones and softer suspension. 

Most of the DD subs sold at the shop I was at in the past were custom built units. People liked the idea of getting a sub built that has a look they like and performs like they'd expect.


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## He's deaf (Nov 28, 2017)

POLKAT said:


> There generally seems to be a dismissive attitude towards subwoofers that come from manufacturers that are popular with the SPL crowd, such as Sundown Audio, Digital Designs, Fi, SSA, ect. for SQ purposes. Is this warranted?
> 
> I absolutely understand there are subwoofers that are made specifically for one note "burping" with mega x-max ratings. Even so, I feel there are many drivers from these companies that are well engineered, have low distortion, and are able to play quite accurately when given the chance (and proper enclosure). What does everyone else think?


Many times it's stuff that I wouldn't even bother to consider- 15" drivers? 1200W rated subs, huge x deep baskets (total PITA to install in factory locations), lights, bling.

I prefer the Audiophile look and marketing, conservative and stealth. SPL is vulgar, expensive, marketed to to "Bros" with flat-brimmed hats, and who knows if it actually sounds nice? It's always put into SPL builds- which I'm not into. Not my scene.


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

He's deaf said:


> Many times it's stuff that I wouldn't even bother to consider- 15" drivers? 1200W rated subs, huge x deep baskets (total PITA to install in factory locations), lights, bling.
> 
> I prefer the Audiophile look and marketing, conservative and stealth. SPL is vulgar, expensive, marketed to to "Bros" with flat-brimmed hats, and who knows if it actually sounds nice? It's always put into SPL builds- which I'm not into. Not my scene.


Much of what you've said here has very little to do with the equipment and is just a general dislike of the SPL crowd.

But then there's your sig...


> Life was much easier when only SPL mattered.


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## He's deaf (Nov 28, 2017)

JI808 said:


> Much of what you've said here has very little to do with the equipment and is just a general dislike of the SPL crowd.
> 
> But then there's your sig...


So? I don't have the time or luxury to spend all day around this stuff, and there's plenty to choose from that isn't as "bling". Playing with car stereo isn't something I get to do all day, every day anymore. I do not get exposure to the latest and greatest. I only stick to what I know works. 

For my needs and tastes I see no benefit to buying 2000WRMS amps and subs with exaggerateds magnet and suspensions. Saying those traits and features have merit and are critical to SQ is facetious at best.

Oh and ya, the crowd. Yup. Got me there.


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## JI808 (Nov 20, 2013)

He's deaf said:


> So? I don't have the time or luxury to spend all day around this stuff, and there's plenty to choose from that isn't as "bling". Playing with car stereo isn't something I get to do all day, every day anymore. I do not get exposure to the latest and greatest. I only stick to what I know works.
> 
> *For my needs and tastes I see no benefit to buying 2000WRMS amps and subs with exaggerateds magnet and suspensions.* Saying those traits and features have merit and are critical to SQ is facetious at best.
> 
> Oh and ya, the crowd. Yup. Got me there.


NOW you're on topic. The SQ and SPL crowds are quite different, but that's not what he's asking about.


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## He's deaf (Nov 28, 2017)

Actually, if you see my original post about the gear being *exaggerated and oversized* you'll see I already addressed that. 

Anyhow, that IS the biggest objection to putting it on a buy list, impractical, oversized and frankly, gaudy.

If you feel otherwise, great. Have at it.


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## Jeffdachefz (Sep 14, 2016)

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. If he doesnt like having overkill subs thats his thing. I dig it. Hell even with my four 18s on 30,000 watts I actually have my sub level all the way down to -24 db and some bass EQ bands down as well when i drive daily in the streets. I only turn it up at competitions for demos. All that bass really does detract away from SQ and kills details however you can have SQ out of your bass if you know how to blend it with your mids. Just because you have all that bass doesn't mean you have to use all of it all the times. 

I enjoy having the best of both worlds, I have one tuning one to hair trick and demo for people and the tuning for great soundstage, detail and clarity. Surprisingly my group delay is pretty amazing and due to it being a 6th order B pillar wall, my bass is right there in front with no localization whatsoever. Thats more on the install then the type of subs tho.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Jeffdachefz said:


> Everyone's entitled to their opinion. If he doesnt like having overkill subs thats his thing. I dig it. Hell even with my four 18s on 30,000 watts I actually have my sub level all the way down to -24 db and some bass EQ bands down as well when i drive daily in the streets. I only turn it up at competitions for demos. All that bass really does detract away from SQ and kills details however you can have SQ out of your bass if you know how to blend it with your mids. Just because you have all that bass doesn't mean you have to use all of it all the times.
> 
> I enjoy having the best of both worlds, I have one tuning one to hair trick and demo for people and the tuning for great soundstage, detail and clarity. Surprisingly my group delay is pretty amazing and due to it being a 6th order B pillar wall, my bass is right there in front with no localization whatsoever. Thats more on the install then the type of subs tho.


Pics?


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Would like to see pictures of your 4 (18”) subs if you are willing to share .


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Jeffdachefz said:


> four 18s on 30,000 watts


In a car? How do you see over the alternators?


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## Jeffdachefz (Sep 14, 2016)

Coppertone said:


> Would like to see pictures of your 4 (18”) subs if you are willing to share .





DavidRam said:


> Pics?


got a snapchat build log of the 6th order wall. Rear chamber tuned to 26hz, front chamber 50hz, plays down to 24hz strong and rolls off afterwards, plays up to 65hz strong and rolls off afterwards but i have my low pass at 63hz since my midbass easily plays down that low with a lot of authority. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBCwd8HOoAw&t=119s

Some windshield jelly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjfkdWthH84

uhm oops, too much sauce, at the first db drag event doing demos. Literally finished the build the night before the show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIusspypb6c

Told myself i need to get it painted but mandatory overtime at work sucks and its the holiday season as well.










20 cubic feet net rear chamber 178.5 sq inches of port area, 40 cubic feet front chamber with 1092 sq inches of port area.










pics of the 92lb sub, mounting them was a PITA by myself, good thing I lift lmao.
Here are the TS specs as well
Ascendant Audio Team 18 AA Team Series 18" 4000W Subwoofer - SSA STORE



















amps. Brazilian full bridged technology. Small footprint, high power, high efficiency and stays super cold with 4 push pull fans built in. No noise, love em.


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## Jeffdachefz (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> In a car? How do you see over the alternators?


There is no seeing while driving with this setup. You use echolocation


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks again for sharing the photos and the information, nice to see outside the box builds.


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