# Horns for this car?



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

I'm considering a horn install in an Acura RL ('08). The system I have planned includes:

20-100hz: AE ib15's

100-320hz: JBL 2006h's (rear-mounted on the rear deck, wide as can be,
with a L-R signal mixed in to enhance apparent width).

320-1200hz: Audax PR170MO (or PHL 1120's), kickpanel location.

1200hz up: ?

Amps: JL HD's

Processing: Arc PS8, and a minidsp for ambient rear-fill.


My question is whether horns are likely to do well in this car with the center console as large as it is. I'm sure minibodies are out, as hard as they crossfire... what do you guys think?

My alternative to horns blush would be to cross the mids higher and mate them with Aurum Cantus AST2650's down in the kicks. 2-seater.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

https://www.google.com/search?q=2008+acura+rl+interior&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=poBoUfeEFJH2igKK6IC4Cw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1097&bih=529#imgrc=TJn-L6WIEbwHgM%3A%3B2xHFefPbw54vLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimage.motortrend.com%252Ff%252Fphoto_gallery%252F10355158%252F112_0808_11z%25252B2008_acura_RL%25252Binterior_view.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.motortrend.com%252Fphoto_gallery%252F112_0808_2009_acura_rl_comparison_gallery%252Fphoto_11.html%3B750%3B469


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would do some of Eric Steven's Ultra minihorns.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I would do some of Eric Steven's Ultra minihorns.


You don't think that they cross too hard with that ginormous console I've got? I'd love to use em.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

They work great in BMW 3 series...and they have a big console. Had them playing for a couple hours in my IS300 and they did great there too...large center console there too.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> They work great in BMW 3 series...and they have a big console. Had them playing for a couple hours in my IS300 and they did great there too...large center console there too.


i'll second this - in a bmw and a ford f150 (huge center console) ... sounded great.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

That's really good to know. Don't know why I had such a block on that issue then? Man that frees things up a bit, cause full bodies would've been TIGHT!


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Not saying the AMT tweeters are bad...Cause I like them a lot too.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Niiiice...keep me spinnin my wheels some more. 

Talk to me please...what do you like about them in a car? I'm so tempted to give them a go. Are we just talking about upper-end air that the hlcd's just won't give?

Which AMT's have you heard or which ones would you consider? those ast2560's look SO good.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

The horns will work and I think either will fit easily enough.

The trick is getting the horn far left and right all the way until you are stopped by metal. This will require thinking through the mid install in the kicks. 

I personally would rather have a 6.5" done right up front than an 8" behind me. 

Eric


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input, Eric!

Question..how much is to be gained by pushing the horn driver beyond the metal? There will be some cutting to do anyway for the mid.

Also, I would intent to marry the horn to the underside of the dash so that there's a flush extention of the horn mouth, but how much is to be gained by flushing up the side of the horn throat with the side panels? Worth the effort?

Last thing Eric, where do you stand on treating the throat of the horn with foam, sanding the horn, mass loading it, etc.? Would love to hear your take on best practices.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

ariko81 said:


> Thanks for the input, Eric!
> 
> Question..how much is to be gained by pushing the horn driver beyond the metal? There will be some cutting to do anyway for the mid.
> 
> ...


You want them wide, there can be a point of too wide but that would usually only happen in a wide vehicle such as a full size pick up. The gains of cutting into the metal are small but if you are trying to do your best the details all add up and become more noticeable.

if you push the horns far left and right you will be flushing up the far sides of the horn mouth. It certainly wont hurt. Radius additions to the edge of the mouth to reduce edge diffraction are good as long as they don't impede or go into the flare of the horn.

Reticulated foam in the two axis flare section is beneficial and recommended. Mass loading and damping materials cant hurt and are recommended for the full size, the MH is pretty dead as shipped.

Eric


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

What Eric said.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Question: I'm having some trouble sourcing the PHL 1120's, but can get the 1660's. Am I better off with the 1660 anyways, or should I keep digging for the 1120's?

From what I gather, the 1660 is stronger in the lower midrange, and the 1120 is stronger and more open in the upper. But, since I'll be crossing at around 1k-1.5k to horns, it seems like the 1660, which also has a bit more efficiency, would be the logical choice. Yes?


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Can't just have the 2206's and horns beating me up without a midrange that can throw down too!


----------



## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

I'd go with the 1660's

How many hd amps are you going with?


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Nice! you're one of the members I hoped would chime in. Fan of serious dynamics unless I have you confused for another.

I'm going to give the 1660's a shot.

As for amps, I was thinking of going one of several directions: 

Option 1: All JL HD's (750/1 on subs, 600/4 bridged to midbass, and another
600/4 to mids and horns) 3 amps total. Certainly adequate!

Option 2: All JL HD's (1200/1 to subs, 900/5 bridged to mids with sub channel to midbass, 900/5 to horns and rears with sub channel to midbass). 3 amps total. More power all around!

Option 3: Mix, with JL HD's on subs and midbass, and some old school Soundstream Reference "Class A's" on mids and highs. Maybe a nicer sound with such high efficiency mids/horns? I dunno.. What do you think?

Btw...how are those Audax pr170mo's working out for you?


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

And before I get to pulling the trigger on some PHL's, are there any other mids out there I should be considering, given where I'm going with this system?


----------



## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

i'd stick to the hd's

The beauty about them is they're small and pack a punch when bridged

I had 3 under the seats in my 02 acura TL

One bridged to midbass
One bridged to midrange
& the other bridged to horns 

1800 watts on tap and the amps were completely hidden. 

I ended up swapping one out for a zed dreadnought to power the midbass. Went from 300 x 2 bridged to 800 x 2 bridged. 

How does a mix of 1 and 2 sound?

1 1200/1 for the subs and 2 600/4's for the front stage?

The audax are holding up very well..butter smooth midrange that'll get as loud as i could ever want 'em to.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

edzyy said:


> i'd stick to the hd's
> 
> The beauty about them is they're small and pack a punch when bridged
> 
> ...


Hmmm... just wondering, especially given your switch to the dreadnought for your midbasses, and that your audax's will get as loud as you could ever want with the power you're giving them, if the 900/5's don't make more sense than the 600/4's? - with that arrangement I'd have 500 watts on each midbass instead of 300, 200 watts per mid rather than 300, and 100 per horn has GOT to be "too" much to begin with.

In short, and maybe you've already weighed in here basically, but isn't the tradeoff worth it to take some power from the mids/highs and giving it to the midbasses?


----------



## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

actually, you're right. 

I didn't look at it that way & totally missed the part about you having rears. 

With the sub channel to midbass, won't you lose out on l & r separation?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't know where to source the 1120s from stateside...e-speakers had then a few months back, but I don't see them there any longer.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know where to source the 1120s from stateside...e-speakers had then a few months back, but I don't see them there any longer.


Yeah I'm kinda bummed about it, cause they REALLY don't come up for sale all that often.

Wouldn't think the 1660 is giving up that much in sq. I guess we'll see.


I'd go with the Audax's, but the low x-max of .5mm will really limit my crossover point flexibility down low, whereas the 1660's have 2mm to play with. I'm thinking with a rear-mounted midbass, the ability to change a preset and bring more lower range upfront will probably be handy.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Here's the official plan. Thoughts?:

Car : 2008 Acura RL (Silver/Blk)

Source : DRZ-9255

Processor : PS8

20-80hz : AE IB15's 91db 1w/m
80-320hz : JBL 2206h's  ... rear deck!  95db 1w/m
320-1280hz : PHL 1120's... kicks...so deep...so wide 96db 1w/m (found em!)
1280andUp : Eric Steven's Minibody horns with ULTRA's...ditto...ditto 111db 1w/m

Rears!  : BG NEO10's !! wtf :laugh: 89db 1w/m

HD900/5 for hi/md/sub/rear LEFT (50w, 200w, 500w,100w)
HD900/5 for hi/md/sub/rear RIGHT (50w, 200w, 500w,100w)
HD600/4 for midbass (300x2)


I'm using the PS8's variable input mixer to widen the midbass' apparent location. Mixing an attenuated -L into Right, and an attenuated -R into Left does this beautifully. This will align the 2206's with the mids in the kicks, width-wise.

The rears will be ambient only. L-R, bandwith limited (300-4000hz), delayed beyond Haas (27ms or so), attenuated like 9-12db. Widening and deepening the whole damn stage! Controllable from the DRZ.

Resonances, rattles, and tactile cues WILL be controlled. Therefore, given that the AE IB's and the 2206's have SUCH low distortion, and that the hand off to the front is around 320hz, the presentation will be all upfront (just don't turn your head much )

PHL 1120's are legendary. Period.
ES minibody ULTRA's. With the PS8's processing, it's a thing of beauty.

The purpose of this system is to reproduce the original source's tone and image with extreme faithfulness, given the environment's parameters, but mostly to be an incredibly dynamic and fun system! We're talking concert status. 12th row center status  

Much metal will be cut...fuse boxes will be moved...the car will be a tomb...I expect there will be blood.


one more thing...












install done by Bing and Joey Knapp at Simplicity in Sound!!!...starting in a few weeks! Been cracking piggybanks for this. Will be epic.

I intent to help hold down the horn fort from my end.

-Ryan


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Hahaa.. I was reading that list of equipment and was thinking, "other than the radio, that is the same sort of install Ryan is planning!". And then I got to the end and it was you! We have the welding table ready to go just waiting on your car!!! (well, I have been building things on it, just warming it up for your pieces! Lol..)
I'm looking forward to your build, counting the days... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Err.. Ok, now there are horns too!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Hahaa.. I was reading that list of equipment and was thinking, "other than the radio, that is the same sort of install Ryan is planning!". And then I got to the end and it was you! We have the welding table ready to go just waiting on your car!!! (well, I have been building things on it, just warming it up for your pieces! Lol..)
> I'm looking forward to your build, counting the days...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yeah. You're definitely not the only one looking forward to this. 

Your skills will be put to the test...but we all know what you guys are capable of. Should be amazing.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would really think about different rears.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Err.. Ok, now there are horns too!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes sir. You had that feeling when we met that the car was begging for horns. You were right!

p.s. suppose we never talked about the plan for the ambient rears. pretty straightforward for that. you'll just need to cut the car in half at the D pillar! :laugh: no, it'll be a snap. we'll talk about it.

This car is totally a tip of the hat to some of the legends of old...the Grand National and Harry Kimura's Acura esp. But, this build's got modern processing and Simplicity in Sound going for it! It's getting serious.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I would really think about different rears.


Me too... but it's a function of the planers shape making a clean install in the D pillars possible. The rear deck is already taken. Big time.

But since you mentioned it, why do you feel that way? Efficiency mismatch (they'd need to be down 9db anway) or just that planers are tricky business?


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

ariko81 said:


> Me too... but it's a function of the planers shape making a clean install in the D pillars possible. The rear deck is already taken. Big time.
> 
> But since you mentioned it, why do you feel that way? Efficiency mismatch (they'd need to be down 9db anway) or just that planers are tricky business?


what I know of planars is that they are for midrange and highs. this is kinda the opposite band you would want in the rear. midbass and low midrange.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

minbari said:


> what I know of planars is that they are for midrange and highs. this is kinda the opposite band you would want in the rear. midbass and low midrange.


Seems to me that the BGneo10's should have no problem with that range. ps 4000hz is the max at the top... it'd probably end up around 2.5k, maybe even less.

Maybe I'm missing something. more than possible. but for what they'd be asked to do (300hz- let's call it 2.5k), shouldn't they be a-ok? It's not like the have to match output with the fronts or even be a tonal match to play ambient info.

Help me out if I'm horribly misled though.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I was thinking more of a 100hz-400hz band for rear fill, unless you have a dsp that does 5.1,7.1,thx, etc.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

With true ambient rears btw... this IS the frequency range you want in the rears.

They're just delayed so much that they're decorrelated from the L,R signal. Thus, they don't pull the stage back whatsoever...they push it forward and add width!! It creates an authentic sense of spaciousness. I'm sure you knew all that though. This is for anyone stuck thinking that "Rear Fill" sucks. Which it definitely can if done wrong. 

Oh no..not another rear fill thread. :laugh:


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

minbari said:


> I was thinking more of a 100hz-400hz band for rear fill, unless you have a dsp that does 5.1,7.1,thx, etc.


As long as the signal is decorrelated through adequate delay, you can go much much higher, and don't need to go so low at all with this kind of rear. If you can, that's awesome. But it's not necessary.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Not enough output potential. 

And you really want some space behind those things (IMO) so the back wave isn't reflecting back through the diaphram. In my experience, the more space you have behind those planars, the better they sound.

But I don't think you would need them. The midbasses back there will give you a lot of ambience.


----------



## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Real curious as to how the L-R mixed signal Midbass sounds in real life. Hope you post a review of your system once it's dialed in.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Not enough output potential.
> I was concerned about that...which is why the plan is dual BGneo10's per side (hence the *100w*/rear channel power from the 900/5 at *4ohms* for the pair, whereas the horns will see 50 at 8ohms). My D-pillars are HUGE.
> 
> And you really want some space behind those things (IMO) so the back wave isn't reflecting back through the diaphram. In my experience, the more space you have behind those planars, the better they sound.
> ...


"Need," no. The midbasses will provide some ambience, but again, this decorrelated signal is a different animal, a different ambience, from that which the rear midbasses would provide. Plus I'm very into tweaking (read='exanding') the perceived sense of space beyond the boudaries of the vehicles interior.


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

rawdawg said:


> Real curious as to how the L-R mixed signal Midbass sounds in real life. Hope you post a review of your system once it's dialed in.


I suspect it's very easy to have too much effect in the mix, creating a hole in the image at those frequencies, but that's a limit that should be easy to identify. Also, I think that its success will vary from recording to recording. When it works, I'll bet it's magic. When it doesn't, it'll need to be easily defeated--which it will.

I'll definitely post a thorough review of the system though.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Wait a second.. Who is gonna be bleeding!!!??? 8-0

I sat in Harry's Car I believe it was at the maybe 95ish IASCA finals, not sure that was a while ago. I heard "All I want to do is have some fun" by C Crow. I still remember how it sounded. Seems like a few cars down was Manvilles Toyota with the 300 tweeters.. Lol.

If you get a definitive equipment plan decided, and if you are near the shop sometime before your appointment, stop by. With an install like yours, I like to have some time to think about how things will be constructed. So, if you get it all figured out and can stop by before the actual appointment date, that would be great.

Oh, and don't forget our open house! It is sometime in May.. (yeah, pretty sad I don't know the day..) I know it is soon though! Haha.. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ariko81 (Dec 15, 2008)

Oh for sure. I'll definitely be stopping by to go over things. Looks like I'll be missing your event, unfortunately. I'll be going out of town for that week. I'll be gone from 5/4-5/11.

I'll stop by when I get back, which should be just a few days before you guys take my car, according to Bing's last email.


----------

