# 24 Bit DAC choices



## Umaronly (Jun 27, 2008)

Hi everyone

I have been looking to replace my alpine HU (9887) since it has conked out on me. There are a number of options available in the market providing 24 Bit DACs, so am a little confused. What is the difference between a generic 24 bit DAC, a Wolfsen 24 Bit one and a Burr Brown segment-type one? Is there a difference in SQ between all these?

To put it more specific, am looking to get either the p80rs from pioneer or the x993 from kenwood. Both have 24 Bit DACs. Which one should I get?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Umaronly said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I have been looking to replace my alpine HU (9887) since it has conked out on me. There are a number of options available in the market providing 24 Bit DACs, so am a little confused. What is the difference between a generic 24 bit DAC, a Wolfsen 24 Bit one and a Burr Brown segment-type one? Is there a difference in SQ between all these?


no.

the days of worrying about differences in audio ADC's and DAC's are gone.

plenty of other stuff to worry about in car audio ... stuff that actually matters.


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## Umaronly (Jun 27, 2008)

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. What else is there for me to worry about when chosing between these 2? I have demoed the kenwood, and for some reason it is not sounding as clear and smooth as the alpine (maybe because of the Audessey EQ)? Any ideas?


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

I currently have a Alpine 9887, but I have also demo'ed the Pioneer and the Kenwood. They all sound great. You can't go wrong with either one, unless you are would later want to go active. Then, I would recommend the Pioneer or get another Alpine.


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## Umaronly (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, thats what I thought, but listening to the kenwood even my wife has noticed that the sound is different. I used Auto EQ and TA from Audessey for the Alpine, maybe that is the main difference. If I stick to the kenwood I am not sure how I can get the sound closer to the Alpine's that I used, or in other words, to sound as natural as possible. Apparently there is no auto TA/EQ in Kenwood.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Umaronly said:


> To put it more specific, am looking to get either the p80rs from pioneer or the x993 from kenwood. Both have 24 Bit DACs. Which one should I get?


Get the p-80rs, because it has much better tuning functions than the Kenwood. You don't want to 'auto' tune anything .


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

Yeah that's true. Maybe you should take the Kenwood off the list. You might want to stick with the Alpine or Pioneer, since you have first hand experience with Kenwood. Getting another 9887 would probably be the easiest thing to do. Just a thought.


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## Umaronly (Jun 27, 2008)

Thanks for the help guys, going for the pioneer. However, am curious if anyone here has been able to compare the p80rs with the p99rs, or used both..? I might have a good deal on the p99rs but dont wanna go for it unless it is absolutely that much better than the p80rs.


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

Since you are already using the Alpine 9887, the other choices as mentioned are the P80RS and the kenwood. Both are excellent. Kenwood is better where mids and low frequency is concerned. P80RS again an excellent choice but find it little attenuated towards the high frequency.

The other headunit that I would suggest if you could source one, its the Pioneer DEH-P940. It's a Japanese model and could have an edge over the others mentioned here.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

invinsible said:


> Kenwood is better where mids and low frequency is concerned. P80RS again an excellent choice but find it little attenuated towards the high frequency.


Speakers can be brighter, stronger in mid bass, weaker in mid range etc. but HU's????

If you're running an external amplifier with the p-80, you would switch off the internal MOFSET amp in the hu (the only thing that could _maybe_ cause colouration) Now the HU is just a source with dsp features.

This myth of the p-80 being bright is a myth from the 'BHP' forum. Probably from some 'guru' who doesn't know how to use the dsp on the deck. 

The P-80 is better than anything Kenwood ever put out and also better than the p-940. Facts are facts the rest is just forum myth....


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Speakers can be brighter, stronger in mid bass, weaker in mid range etc. but HU's????
> 
> 
> The P-80 is better than anything Kenwood ever put out and also better than the p-940. Facts are facts the rest is just forum myth....


And what about listening experience.. am not even considering or going by the said myth off the bhp forum.
I reserve my point of view on it. I have played around extensively in last 16years of my listening car audio with both Pioneer and Alpine and can tell you that every HU has its own sound characteristics. If they all sounded the same then one wouldn't be having this discussion and would be rather be discussing external amps and speakers. Pioneer, Alpine, Clarion, Kenwood all differ a bit in SQ in low, mid and high freq region. Listen to them without adding any EQ, on the same driver and of the same amp and you'l know what I am talking about. 
Example, few years back I was on the look out to choose between Alpine 9887, Clarion DXZ785, Piooner P800. After listening to all 3 off the same drivers and amp chose the Clarion. Am not saying either of them are not up to the mark but I just gave my opinion as to what I felt would be a better choice. 
Anyways each one of us here will have a different way to look at it and have their own choice / preferences. 



> However, am curious if anyone here has been able to compare the p80rs with the p99rs, or used both..?


It's a night and day difference. Can tell you as having a P01.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Umaronly said:


> Thanks for the help guys, going for the pioneer. However, am curious if anyone here has been able to compare the p80rs with the p99rs, or used both..? I might have a good deal on the p99rs but dont wanna go for it unless it is absolutely that much better than the p80rs.


I got to play with the p-99 last Sunday. I run what is essentially a the p-80rs.

The p-80 is a generation older than the p-99. But they are both special, because they offer virtually processor like dsp in a 1-din unit. DSP is digital signal processing. This is the ability to adjust how you hear the sound from each driver and the ability to correct a lot of imperfections of the environment, i.e. your car. Even with dsp you're not going to be able to correct 100% of the imperfections. But you will have amazing sound.

The p-99 does everything that the p-80 does except it does it in smaller steps. Hence greater possible accuracy. Time alignment is in 0.3" as opposed to the 0.5" on the p-80. Both have L/R independent eq, but the p-99 has a 31 band vs the 16 band on the p-80. But the best part is that the p-99 allows you to set the eq for either side in increments of 0.5db. Yes you can hear a difference of 0.5db. This vs increments of 2db on the p-80.

One big thing to remember, both hu's are essentially designed for those who like to tune. If you go this route you will have to learn tuning. I can tell you from personal experience that this takes at least a couple of years. Do you want to invest that time? All I can tell you is that the results are humbling. 

So if you want to go down this route...........the p-99 is way better than the p-80, but if you're just starting out, get the p-80 first. You'll have lesser variables to confuse you. 

If you're from the auto tune crowd, get the p-99. The auto tune function on p-80 sucks. But it would be a waste to auto tune the p-99 when your ears can do a much better job.

Oh and neither unit really likes USB / I-pod / Bluetooth.....et al. The p-80 sucks at these interfaces, the p-99 is a little better.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

invinsible said:


> And what about listening experience.. am not even considering or going by the said myth off the bhp forum.
> I reserve my point of view on it. I have played around extensively in last 16years of my listening car audio with both Pioneer and Alpine and can tell you that every HU has its own sound characteristics. If they all sounded the same then one wouldn't be having this discussion and would be rather be discussing external amps and speakers. Pioneer, Alpine, Clarion, Kenwood all differ a bit in SQ in low, mid and high freq region. Listen to them without adding any EQ, on the same driver and of the same amp and you'l know what I am talking about.
> Example, few years back I was on the look out to choose between Alpine 9887, Clarion DXZ785, Piooner P800. After listening to all 3 off the same drivers and amp chose the Clarion. Am not saying either of them are not up to the mark but I just gave my opinion as to what I felt would be a better choice.
> Anyways each one of us here will have a different way to look at it and have their own choice / preferences.
> ...


Look, there's a very simple way of sorting this out. You listen to my car and i'll listen to yours. Then we will let our ears decide. People can lie, ears don't. 

One of us will wind up learning something. I'm _always_ open to learning. Thats one way to keep moving ahead.


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

sqnut said:


> I got to play with the p-99 last Sunday. I run what is essentially a the p-80rs.
> 
> The p-80 is a generation older than the p-99. But they are both special, because they offer virtually processor like dsp in a 1-din unit. DSP is digital signal processing. This is the ability to adjust how you hear the sound from each driver and the ability to correct a lot of imperfections of the environment, i.e. your car. Even with dsp you're not going to be able to correct 100% of the imperfections. But you will have amazing sound.
> 
> ...




^^ Well said.


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Look, there's a very simple way of sorting this out. You listen to my car and i'll listen to yours. Then we will let our ears decide. People can lie, ears don't.
> 
> One of us will wind up learning something. I'm _always_ open to learning. Thats one way to keep moving ahead.


Sure, ears don't lie. I'm sure learning process could be both ways. 
I look forward listening to it sometime in future. 
Shoot me a PM if ever you are in this side of city.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Don't sleep on the Alpine CDA 117. I have been using that head unit for 9 months and it has worked well for me.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

Dac bit resolution is about how data is processed. 1 o 24 bit chunks. No big deal here.

The real deal is about oversampling and dithering. The difference between 44.1/16 signal and 96/24 or higher is there. 
A good DAC capable of 24bits processing before going analog sound sweet.
(yes, even if the original signal is just 16 bits).


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