# Opinions on peerless pro driver as a sub



## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

Hey guys,

I'm posting this here since I'm going to be building my system with a pro-audio mid, mid-bass and sub. Unfortunately, I _really _don't have room for HLCDs in my car. I was out there with a tape measure today, and the kicks are almost non-existant, my knees are too close to the dash to use an under-dash mount, and I don't want to cut up my dash or put something ugly on top. 
I'm quite upset about that. Anyway.

What do you all think of this thing as a sub? I will be using an IB setup. 
To my knowledge, I'm looking for low Fs, high-ish Qts, decent xmax, and not tons of money. (I'm doing a 3 way front stage and trying to keep each driver under $60 except for the sub.)
This thing seems to tick all the boxes. The only real con I can see is that it's a few dB less efficient than a lot of other pro-audio stuff. The Sd is huge, the xmax is decent, the Fs is quite low and the price is unbeatable. Does anyone here have some personal experience with this driver, or know someone? Any thoughts on the specs?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i definitely wouldnt recommend it. dont look at pro drivers for this


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

Just because they don't dig as deep as a standard sub? We do have cabin gain in a car. It looks really flat to 30hz and cabin gain should really be kicking in below that, no? 

Here is a complete FR graph from the manufacturer. For some reason PE has only a partial one.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I think itll run out of xmax way to quickly. 9mm is kinda pathetic for a sub, especially one for IB use. I realize thats kinda normal for a pro audio sub though, which is partially why i dont recommend them. All other specs kinda line up though. Unusual for a pro audio sub.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

They will perform relatively well but I would suggest using 2, I prefer a lower Q for motor control but its not to high. 

I wouldnt hesitate to recomend it for use in IB.


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P1FiZ1DW73d-wjD1u6ZBEc7p2MlNpAhSal8nDQRsOmM/edit?usp=sharing

(So you can see the amount of time I have put into this question) 

I am going to go through pro 12" drivers and then pro 10"s next. 
You can see how well the Peerless driver I linked is doing against its peers. There are drivers with more Xmax and with more Sd, but for the price, not much can touch it. 

What concerns me is the relatively low sensitivity and the fact that Peerless isn't super-well-known for their pro drivers.
I guess I should also be worried about the xmax. In the past, I had this guy. (1)
Plugging in the Xmax and Sd gives me 440cm^3 of displacement, which is lower than every other pro driver I have looked at.
The way I'm looking at it, yes, Xmax matters a lot for a sub, but so does Sd. So the best thing to do is to calculate the volume displaced at Xmax. Then you can directly compare drivers of different sizes, multiples, etc. 

However, what I don't know how to do is calculate SPL at Xmax or wattage needed to reach Xmax. 
I also don't know if my theory here is logical.
I also don't know how the subwoofer enclosure type effects excursion. I'm sure a large aperiodic (my trunk, realistically) would have a much different effect than a .75ft^3 box.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

jesh4622 said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P1FiZ1DW73d-wjD1u6ZBEc7p2MlNpAhSal8nDQRsOmM/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> (So you can see the amount of time I have put into this question) <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> ...


Um how can you have a pro audio sub list and not have a dozen JBLs on it? Boggles the mind.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> I think itll run out of xmax way to quickly. 9mm is kinda pathetic for a sub, especially one for IB use. I realize thats kinda normal for a pro audio sub though, which is partially why i dont recommend them. All other specs kinda line up though. Unusual for a pro audio sub.


They are rated low x Max because that is where the absolute cutting edge of low distortion and no power compression is demanded by pro users. The most common pro studio and live sounds sub the JBL 2226 is rated at 7mm xmax and 25+mm x mech. The live sound guys will tell you they don't start sounding like jbls till they are jumping and are dead nails tough and reliable. I think more ib users should look to pro subs personally.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dcfis said:


> They are rated low x Max because that is where the absolute cutting edge of low distortion and no power compression is demanded by pro users.


thats not why theyre rated like that. there are standards for xmax ratings. theyre not just made up.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> dcfis said:
> 
> 
> > They are rated low x Max because that is where the absolute cutting edge of low distortion and no power compression is demanded by pro users.
> ...


You are right very specific as laid out here. I was wondering about x mech it's 40mm


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

dcfis said:


> Um how can you have a pro audio sub list and not have a dozen JBLs on it? Boggles the mind.


I have no issues with JBL! Link me a vendor that has T/S parameters on it for a bunch of their subs and I'll definitely look into them. Right now, I am just going through Parts Express and I'll also go through madisound and US Speaker.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

jesh4622 said:


> dcfis said:
> 
> 
> > Um how can you have a pro audio sub list and not have a dozen JBLs on it? Boggles the mind.
> ...


All jbl pro speakers have extensive ts and other measurements. PE does have the specs and measurements under the picture of the speaker you can download


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dcfis said:


> You are right very specific as laid out here. I was wondering about x mech it's 40mm


xmech just means thats when the speaker _physically_ cannot travel any further. either the coil hits the back plate or the suspension is fully extended. usually the former


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

jesh4622 said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P1FiZ1DW73d-wjD1u6ZBEc7p2MlNpAhSal8nDQRsOmM/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> (So you can see the amount of time I have put into this question)
> 
> ...


WinISD - Linearteam

Red Spade Audio: WinISD - entering new driver data

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ssion/348545-how-modeling-drivers-winisd.html


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

The Old 10" driver you had would have no where near the displacement of the 18" as its Xmax is 12.5 one way with an Sd of 352cm^2 vs 1225cm^2 with an xmax of 9.4

For IB I prefer low Qms 

In my Sable for example I had 2ea 15" with 1 way linear of 7.5mm that were 98dB w/m and it would do 136 dB using L'Daddy track on original IASCA CD and same on later with bass music. It had 500 watts on each with the modded Zapco Z600 amps.



jesh4622 said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P1FiZ1DW73d-wjD1u6ZBEc7p2MlNpAhSal8nDQRsOmM/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> (So you can see the amount of time I have put into this question)
> 
> ...


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> The Old 10" driver you had would have no where near the displacement of the 18" as its Xmax is 12.5 one way with an Sd of 352cm^2 vs 1225cm^2 with an xmax of 9.4
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eric, which drivers would you use today for IB?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

nyquistrate said:


> Eric, which drivers would you use today for IB?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


If I am going to recomend for someone I will first want to ask questions to know what type of listener begore making any recomendation.

Personally.....If I am doing IB in a car I am going to use at least 2 15" drivers, larger even better if the space is available. Wont need crazy xmax because I have a very large Sd but I would shoot for 10mm + of voice coil overhang one-way (not 70% or 80% Bl) with a lowish Fs preferably under 30hz with a low Qts. An alternate method would be to use larger quantity of smaller drivers.


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

Hello Eric,

I have been mulling over your latest response. Is the lower Qts you aim for because you find a "real" IB in a car to be an impossibility, and are instead using the trunk as a large sealed enclosure to drive up Qtc? 
I have been looking up Vas on some of the drivers I added to my spreadsheet, and it seems the vast majority require too much room to hit the accepted cutoff of 4x Vas.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

jesh4622 said:


> Hello Eric,
> 
> I have been mulling over your latest response. Is the lower Qts you aim for because you find a "real" IB in a car to be an impossibility, and are instead using the trunk as a large sealed enclosure to drive up Qtc?
> I have been looking up Vas on some of the drivers I added to my spreadsheet, and it seems the vast majority require too much room to hit the accepted cutoff of 4x Vas.


No I am after motor dominated response and control. Low Qts comes from lots of motor force and a low Qe. The low Qms damps the system. I want a Low Qtc. 

I wouldnt worry about the VAS and trying to achieve a true infinite baffle as it cannot happen anyways as you are going to be sitting inside the enclosure, the cars interior. All trunks are vented aas well to add to the above thought.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> xmech just means thats when the speaker _physically_ cannot travel any further. either the coil hits the back plate or the suspension is fully extended. usually the former


Yeah we all know nick. Does it address a higher X MECH means more output? Yes or No


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dcfis said:


> Yeah we all know nick. Does it address a higher X MECH means more output? Yes or No


Depends. Are you ok with a possible highly distorted output? 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

Eric: Your criteria are pretty standard for any subwoofer, are they not? 
It sounds like all you care for is Sd over Xmax for IB? 

I'm aware of the trunk's venting, which is why I referred to it as a large aperiodic enclosure before. (which of course would be impossible to model as the size and properties of the vents are unknown)

Everything I have read seems to point to wanting a higher Qts since a large enclosure (trunk) will not provide much damping. Getting it Qts closer to .707 means Qtc will be closer to .707. I know some people prefer Qtc values a little lower, but that's personal preference, and some people may refer to that sound as "bass thin". Higher Qts values ensure adequate response in the upper bass region. So I'm a little at a loss, right now.

I will probably set up the sub as a true infinite baffle at some point, possible even right away. I just bought an angle grinder, so it's game on.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

jesh4622 said:


> Eric: Your criteria are pretty standard for any subwoofer, are they not?
> It sounds like all you care for is Sd over Xmax for IB?
> 
> I'm aware of the trunk's venting, which is why I referred to it as a large aperiodic enclosure before. (which of course would be impossible to model as the size and properties of the vents are unknown)
> ...


No it is a system and my thinking is done in terms of the system. 

Output and resulting frequency response are both directly tied to the displacement of the system. There are two ways to define displacement, static displacement or Sd of all subwoofers, and volume of displacement or Sd of all subwoofers multiplied by linear excursion. The ratio of static displacement to cubic volume / area of the listening environment will have a determining factor on the transfer function of the system, the larger the Sd is relative to volume of the listening environment the more boost we get from the transfer function. This is a non-linear effect with more boost happening at lower frequencies. So one of the reasons for the large amount of cone area is get the overall response shape I am after. You wont be able to model this unless you are using LEAP or something like Ansys or Comsol. 

Given the choice between a large volume of displacement from large cone area versus long excursion I will always choose "large cone area". the result will be a very large reduction in distortion.

Similar to compliance the Q of system is a little counter intuitive. Your thinking and thoughts on system Q and damping is reversed. The lower the Q of the system the higher the damping effect --OR-- Lowering Q of the system increases the damping of the system. So a higher Q system will have potential for increased ringing and less control. A smaller enclosure volume provides a restorative force on the moving assembly and is modeled as an inductor or spring in an acoustic system. 

The simple low frequency response of system such we are discussing is mostly dominated by the cone area displacement and volumes of the listening environment and has less to do with the typical response that is characterized by T/S parameters.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Depends. Are you ok with a possible highly distorted output?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Which goes back exactly to my original point when you wanted to to correct me on what JBL (and the VAST MAJORITY of Pro Companies) does in terms xmax- xmech ratings. Not to be confused with how Car audio has huge xmax (I doubt totally they measure at 10% distortion and no power compression) and very close to that x mech. 

Like I originally stated Pro Audio usage demands specific info- the Xmax is below 10% distortion and minimal power compression. Anywhere from that distortion goes up to xmech. Please dont act like we are in a studio mastering room claiming 10,20,30% sub distortion is a factor in car audio. If claim it does then the ONLY subs worth having are indeed PRO AUDIO!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dcfis said:


> Which goes back exactly to my original point when you wanted to to correct me on what JBL (and the VAST MAJORITY of Pro Companies) does in terms xmax- xmech ratings. Not to be confused with how Car audio has huge xmax (I doubt totally they measure at 10% distortion and no power compression) and very close to that x mech.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I originally stated Pro Audio usage demands specific info- the Xmax is below 10% distortion and minimal power compression. Anywhere from that distortion goes up to xmech. Please dont act like we are in a studio mastering room claiming 10,20,30% sub distortion is a factor in car audio. If claim it does then the ONLY subs worth having are indeed PRO AUDIO!


Pro audio or not, most companies use the following formula. Xmax = (Voice Coil Length - Height of the Magnetic Gap) / 2. Not many companies, again, pro audio or not, have access to a klippel to find out distortion based xmax. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> If I am going to recomend for someone I will first want to ask questions to know what type of listener begore making any recomendation.
> 
> Personally.....If I am doing IB in a car I am going to use at least 2 15" drivers, larger even better if the space is available. Wont need crazy xmax because I have a very large Sd but I would shoot for 10mm + of voice coil overhang one-way (not 70% or 80% Bl) with a lowish Fs preferably under 30hz with a low Qts. An alternate method would be to use larger quantity of smaller drivers.


Thanks. Two 15's is exactly what I'm looking at for my available space. I started a new thread to not junk up OP's.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5681275-post1.html


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

It probably won't help but I tried a pair of these FSL guys recently, when I saw the price and the high Qts I couldn’t pass.
It was in a complete different setup at home, OB system, well more no baffle at all in fact. I did try just as sub for 1 or 2 octaves, and also as full bass up to around 300Hz.
Response was there, enough for my needs in a small room in term of quantity.
But they just never sounded good enough, too much distortion and clearly not on par with the other drivers.
Sure playing OB pushed them harder than with a box but still I expected more from such a big SD.
For comparison the 4x12" I have right now are much cleaner.


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

Thank you so much! What drivers are you using for bass now? 

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

jesh4622 said:


> Thank you so much! What drivers are you using for bass now?
> 
> Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk


At home? I pushed to later the search for stronger sub, for now I’m happy with 2xSB34NRX75-16 per side for 20-500Hz (but they are specific OB drivers).


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

https://ficaraudio.com/product/ib3-series-ib318-v2/

))) They come in 12-15-18s. 

Not insanely expensive and specifically IB oriented.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Not insanely expensive and specifically IB oriented.


Thanks for the recommendation! I knew about their IB driver, but I never bothered to look up the price. Not bad at all! I can see why this driver has a lot of fans. 

I have decided to cut open my spare tire well like some other members on here, and jump straight to a "real" IB setup. Therefore, I really don't care about Vas anymore! 
I went through USspeaker and looked for 18 and 21 inch drivers with an Fs of 30hz or less, a Qts of .35 or higher, and OK xmax. My spare tire has a 26 inch diameter, so I can fit some beefy drivers in there. I have updated my spreadsheet with the new info. 
I also added the Fi IB driver for comparison. I am pretty sure I want to stick with a pro driver, but goddam that displacement is ridiculous!
I noticed that the JBL drivers are all high in the 30s for Fs, so none of them made the cut. 
The standout (besides the obvious Fi) is the Peavey Low Rider. I've seen it mentioned a few times on the forums, but no real reviews of it. Anyone have some thoughts?
I am not super budget-limited, so I would be OK with getting that 21" RCF even if it's $730. I'll just save up for longer. :blush:


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Bro. I have sent these things wayyyyy over their rms rating and had maybe a 10hz hpf on. They never hit xmax. They never bottomed out. Fi is your best bet. 

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

I'm not doubting they're badass. I would just like to give all pro drivers a chance. I'm still considering a Fi IB, for sure. I'll just have to think on it.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

You are focused too much on the bottom end and not accounting for cabin gain. All my cuts are in the 20-35 range.

IMO


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## jesh4622 (Aug 31, 2016)

dcfis said:


> You are focused too much on the bottom end and not accounting for cabin gain. All my cuts are in the 20-35 range.
> 
> IMO


You mean too focused on low Fs?
Maybe. 

I just found a B&C driver that fits my criteria - the B&C 21sw115-8.
A few minutes later, I realized that there is both a 4 and an 8 ohm version. I had seen the 4 ohm version before, since it's on Parts Express, and ruled it out without thinking too much since the Fs is 33hz. 

I compared the FR graphs for both and they're essentially identical. 
I'm not sure what I'm missing here. I would have thought 3hz down this low would make more of a difference. 

At any rate, this makes it the top candidate for me, since I'd prefer a 21" and the price is uhhh not terrifying I guess. I won't call it a budget item. :laugh:
But it's also top in Vd - an amazing 2.352L.


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