# Arc Audio = Cerwin Vega again?



## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Why does Arc continue to share amp lines with Cerwin Vega? (XXD/SX)

You would think that they would at least try to make them look different.


----------



## n2bmrs97 (Jul 21, 2010)

I was wondering the same thing


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Arc's not "sharing" anything. They're just both rebadging and marketing amps from the same OEM. Though I think the CV ones have a more useful bass boost, and the Arcs have a cleaner-looking heatsink. There's another amp I've seen recently that looks just like these two with the board inverted, but I don't remember what it was right now. Maybe a Power Acoustic?

Arc doesn't actually "make" anything.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> Arc's not "sharing" anything. They're just both rebadging and marketing amps from the same OEM. Though I think the CV ones have a more useful bass boost, and the Arcs have a cleaner-looking heatsink. There's another amp I've seen recently that looks just like these two with the board inverted, but I don't remember what it was right now. Maybe a Power Acoustic?
> 
> Arc doesn't actually "make" anything.




Liar, it says Arc, and Fred says....


----------



## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

PS...don't look at Clarion, either


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

BigAl205 said:


> PS...don't look at Clarion, either


Or ID, or UBuy or Elf Audio, or Wetsounds or...well they get the picture.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

owning Arc gear, i can tell you that even if they share the same design the quality of the Arc KS over the Clarion is better. Enough to justify the price difference alone not sure, but one thing Arc have is support. They know the product they are selling(not just features but the inside too) and can help me if i have a problem or would like some extra features.

Yes there's too many ARC is the best in the world, but on the other hand they deserve some credit for some solid products and excellent support.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

basshead said:


> owning Arc gear, i can tell you that even if they share the same design the quality of the Arc KS over the Clarion is better. Enough to justify the price difference alone not sure, but one thing Arc have is support. They know the product they are selling(not just features but the inside too) and can help me if i have a problem or would like some extra features.
> 
> Yes there's too many ARC is the best in the world, but on the other hand they deserve some credit for some solid products and excellent support.


Did you read the thread or are you blindly posting? The amps ARE the same.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

^^^Unfortunately for Arc owners, that is not true. Same exact product, and for someone like me that have never used "support" in over 20 years, I won't pay a premium for it.

If Arc is better quality wise, please explain in great detail how so.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

89grand said:


> ^^^Unfortunately for Arc owners, that is not true. Same exact product, and for someone like me that have never used "support" in over 20 years, I won't pay a premium for it.
> 
> If Arc is better quality wise, please explain in great detail how so.


I don't think I've ever called any companies tech support. Google and the forums provide plenty of knowledge.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> I don't think I've ever called any companies tech support. Google and the forums provide plenty of knowledge.


Same here. I know how to use whatever I buy, but in the rare instance I didn't, I'd ask here, or search the internet.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

basshead said:


> Enough to justify the price difference alone not sure, but one thing Arc have is support.


That may be true, and valuable to some people. However, what "support" would be needed for an amplifier is quite honestly beyond me. Assuming that it's working in the first place. Perhaps I do expect too much of people, though.

I will agree that all of the amps Arc buys and resells at higher markups than other resellers ask for the same products (at least the ones I've seen) are solid. Their subs are second-rate, but come from a second-rate supplier so no shock there.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> That may be true, and valuable to some people. However, what "support" would be needed for an amplifier is quite honestly beyond me. Assuming that it's working in the first place. Perhaps I do expect too much of people, though.


Ill admit that for most it shouldn't be a factor. For me it was removing the bass generator module from a KS1000.1BX, they quickly point to what was needed and it did work. They could also provide me with parts, i wanted a new cover for my amps and they had it. Call CV,Clarion,etc... I'm pretty sure no one would have bother to answer me.


----------



## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh SNAP! DS-21 posted TWICE in an amplifier thread without using the word "commodity"!


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Nobody was retarded enough to claim that amps sound different from one another on this thread yet. Hopefully, nobody will ever show that kind of mental deficiency (and moral and intellectual bankruptcy) on this thread. Dealing with the functionally deaf is really, really annoying.

But it's implicitly obvious that Ubuy amps are literally commodities available to any firm that can pony up whatever their minimum order is. Be it Arc (who likes to claim that theres are better, which we all know is BS), Cerwin Vega, Clarion, Eton, elfAudio, Wet Sounds, and so on and so forth. Which is, of course, fine. They seem to be solidly-made products, and when purchased from the right venders they seem to be good values, too. No need to reinvent the wheel when it's just a commodity part.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

well well been looking on the interweb to prove my point about the KS over the Clarion and to find out that they are the same based on a picture of the clarion guts (only a small difference on the input side)... Was it the mini VS elf then? what about the famous SE?


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

basshead said:


> well well been looking on the interweb to prove my point about the KS over the Clarion and to find out that they are the same based on a picture of the clarion guts (only a small difference on the input side)... Was it the mini VS elf then? what about the famous SE?


The Arc Mini and the Elf are nearly identical too, except probably some cosmetic crap.


----------



## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

basshead said:


> well well been looking on the interweb to prove my point about the KS over the Clarion and to find out that they are the same based on a picture of the clarion guts (only a small difference on the input side)... Was it the mini VS elf then? *what about the famous SE?*


Here's the 4000SE, from UBUY Taiwan's manufacturing site:










http://www.ubuy.com.tw/


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

And here's a Clarion from Ubuys site.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

89grand said:


> The Arc Mini and the Elf are nearly identical too, except probably some cosmetic crap.


The 2125X's board even says "KS125.2" on it!


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

TREETOP said:


> Here's the 4000SE, from UBUY Taiwan's manufacturing site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOLY CAP BATMAN!

I'm actually trying to decide between the Clarion dpx11510 somethin or other sub amp and the Arc KS1000.1 myself. Both do about the same at 4 ohms (load it will be seeing). The Arc will fit nicely where I want to put it while the Clarion would stick out into the rear floor like the big custom Zuki I'm running under the drivers seat. Catch is whatever I get CAN'T have fans since they'll be installed really close and fans are annoying in the winter (noisy on start).


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Where do you get ID? Their amps are not made by Ubuy.



89grand said:


> Or ID, or UBuy or Elf Audio, or Wetsounds or...well they get the picture.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Where do you get ID? Their amps are not made by Ubuy.


I didn't say that. We were talking about Arc not making their own stuff, and I mentioned ID because they make some, or all of Arcs subs.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Catch is whatever I get CAN'T have fans since they'll be installed really close and fans are annoying in the winter (noisy on start).


well i have 2 300.4 install under the passenger seat and one 1000.1 between the 2 front seats. The only time i can hear the fan is when i lower the volume after listening at high level, it will last 5 sec and then it stop.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Right on. The way it was (to me) in context was ID had UBuy build their amps, which they do not. I'm not sure what subs ID is building for Arc these days.



89grand said:


> I didn't say that. We were talking about Arc not making their own stuff, and I mentioned ID because they make some, or all of Arcs subs.


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ff-nikola-engineering-amps-4.html#post1090346

according to this UBUY engineer, there are some similarities between arc,clarion and c-vega amps, but each of these oem have their own particular flavor of amplifier , built on a shared platform.


----------



## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

But, at the end of the day......................... It is a Zeff design amp! 







.


----------



## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

evo9 said:


> But, at the end of the day......................... It is a Zeff design amp!


AND.........

I'm more concerned that how it's made and what's inside that just the design.

Gotta luv ARC's 100%+ mark up


----------



## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

are the A/B Signature amps from ubuy as well????


----------



## n2bmrs97 (Jul 21, 2010)

I talked to arc's rep a while back and he said image does not make any of there subs......some of them sure look similar though, just my 2 cents


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

n2bmrs97 said:


> I talked to arc's rep a while back and he said image does not make any of there subs......some of them sure look similar though, just my 2 cents


The ID8 and the Acr8 not only look identical, as far as the cone and frame, they have the EXACT same specs.


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

n2bmrs97 said:


> I talked to arc's rep a while back and he said image does not make any of there subs......some of them sure look similar though, just my 2 cents


some company reps know what they are talking about, most just repeat what they read on brochures and mix in horse manure, ******** and ol' wives tales simply to try to show that they know more about stuff than the consumer does.
i once had a machinery rep, tell me that the company he represented, even manufactured the nuts, bolts and ball bearings that were used on the inside of the machine.:laugh:


----------



## n2bmrs97 (Jul 21, 2010)

amitaF said:


> some company reps know what they are talking about, most just repeat what they read on brochures and mix in horse manure, ******** and ol' wives tales simply to try to show that they know more about stuff than the consumer does.
> i once had a machinery rep, tell me that the company he represented, even manufactured the nuts, bolts and ball bearings that were used on the inside of the machine.:laugh:



agreed


----------



## n2bmrs97 (Jul 21, 2010)

89grand said:


> The ID8 and the Acr8 not only look identical, as far as the cone and frame, they have the EXACT same specs.


yup, but arc will not admit to it, the rep gave me a very loooong story, its all good though


----------



## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

89grand said:


> The ID8 and the Acr8 not only look identical, as far as the cone and frame, they have the EXACT same specs.


That's funny...I didn't realize, but they are identical in every way. I'm just surprised a little more effort isn't put into making identical amps/subs appear unique to the brand.


----------



## n2bmrs97 (Jul 21, 2010)

rain27 said:


> That's funny...I didn't realize, but they are identical in every way. I'm just surprised a little more effort isn't put into making identical amps/subs appear unique to the brand.


probably to save on cost = bigger profit in the end, thats how the cookie crumbles


----------



## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

n2bmrs97 said:


> probably to save on cost = bigger profit in the end, thats how the cookie crumbles


I can understand that aspect, but when a car audio company attempts to distinguish itself from the crowd as a premium brand, the last thing I would think they would do is use the same exact products as other companies.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

rain27 said:


> I can understand that aspect, but when a car audio company attempts to distinguish itself from the crowd as a premium brand, *the last thing I would think they would do is use the same exact products as other companies.*


They don't have any choice. Arc is just a marketer/distributor basically(and they are by far the only one). They don't make anything so it's pretty hard for them not to. They do use unique looking heat sinks for their amps.


----------



## blaze452 (Jun 27, 2010)

Arc the ARC SE's comparable to anything? (4200SE and 2300SE) or are they their own unique design???


----------



## Ovalevader (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't get how 4-5 manufactures using the same build house to make all their amps make them exactly the same. Anyone who has seen a Powerbass amp in person could tell you its made in the same build house as the DD A series amps, as well as Audioque, RD, American Bass, and I'm sure many others no one knows about. Does that make them the same amp? Not even. 

I installed a powerbass amp with the same board as my DD C4a, and while reading the manual I noticed it was IDENTICAL to the DD manual. So I cracked both amps open to invesigate, and sure enough, same board. Now, it was obvious from looking at the amp guts that the board was where the similarities stopped. You could tell that powerbass told the build house "make us an amp as cheaply as possibly using this board", and DD said "make us a quality amp using this board". And yes, they are two completely different sounding amps.

And the above post makes a good point. I'm sure the ARC se amps share some components with said clarion amps, so naturally that makes them exactly the same and everyone should just get the clarion.

BTW, I'm sure any one of us with a fat enough wallet could have the ARC/Clarion/cerwin vega build house build an amp using the KS board, with the crappiest components known to man for 8 dollars, and sell it to diyma members saying its the same as the KS amps. I'm sure that would put the rumors to rest.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Ovalevader said:


> I don't get how 4-5 manufactures using the same build house to make all their amps make them exactly the same. Anyone who has seen a Powerbass amp in person could tell you its made in the same build house as the DD A series amps, as well as Audioque, RD, American Bass, and I'm sure many others no one knows about. Does that make them the same amp? Not even.
> 
> I installed a powerbass amp with the same board as my DD C4a, and while reading the manual I noticed it was IDENTICAL to the DD manual. So I cracked both amps open to invesigate, and sure enough, same board. Now, it was obvious from looking at the amp guts that the board was where the similarities stopped. You could tell that powerbass told the build house "make us an amp as cheaply as possibly using this board", and DD said "make us a quality amp using this board". *And yes, they are two completely different sounding amps.*
> 
> ...


I hate to be the dissenter here, but do you have measurements, other than your ears, to prove that both amplifiers measure differently and subsequently sound differently?

For example, did you install the DD amplifier, level match it, tune the system, then RTA the vehicle it was installed in? Afterwards, did you install the Powerbass (Edit: in the same vehicle changing nothing but the amplifiers), level match it, leave all tuning options the same, then repeat with a subsequent RTA measurement?


----------



## SomeGuy748 (Feb 24, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> Nobody was retarded enough to claim that amps sound different from one another on this thread yet. Hopefully, nobody will ever show that kind of mental deficiency (and moral and intellectual bankruptcy) on this thread. Dealing with the functionally deaf is really, really annoying.


Are you suggesting that all amps sound the same or just the amps in this thread that happen to come from the same build house?


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

SomeGuy748 said:


> Are you suggesting that all amps sound the same or just the amps in this thread that happen to come from the same build house?


Do you have evidence to the contrary to support the assertion that they do not?

Here is a fine example of a test performed a long time ago: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1090544-post175.html 

The individuals in the study had 388 correct identifications out of 772 trials. That is not statistically significant enough to prove that the golden ear crew can hear difference between amplifiers playing. I am sure if they did an a/b/c X test, those numbers would drop drastically because it would eliminate the possibility of a 50/50 guess.

The bottom line is that one is hard pressed to tell the difference between amplifiers that measure withing 1 dB of each other over 20 Hz to 20 kHz PROVIDED those amplifiers are reproducing a signal way below clipping. 

Going further, we are talking about CAR AUDIO here where the vehicle is subject to many extraneous noise variables beyond the driver's control. In fact, the worse thing about achieving great sound in a car is the car itself.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Ovalevader said:


> I don't get how 4-5 manufactures using the same build house to make all their amps make them exactly the same. Anyone who has seen a Powerbass amp in person could tell you its made in the same build house as the DD A series amps, as well as Audioque, RD, American Bass, and I'm sure many others no one knows about. Does that make them the same amp? Not even.
> 
> I installed a powerbass amp with the same board as my DD C4a, and while reading the manual I noticed it was IDENTICAL to the DD manual. So I cracked both amps open to invesigate, and sure enough, same board. Now, it was obvious from looking at the amp guts that the board was where the similarities stopped. You could tell that powerbass told the build house "make us an amp as cheaply as possibly using this board", and DD said "make us a quality amp using this board". And yes, they are two completely different sounding amps.
> 
> ...


I get it now, I see you have Arc amps.:laugh:


----------



## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

BigAl205 said:


> PS...don't look at Clarion, either


I was referred to this thread from another site, But I'm here to defend Clarion.

Their older stuff was top notch (I had an APA4160 that I'd put against a lot of amps today) and they suffered a bit from '99-06, but they're are back to being a great amp. They sound very clean and perform above what they're rated for. Clarions new HX line is destined to make a come back for the company. 

To many people put to much emphasis on how an amp looks today and think that it performs based on that. I know there are some that don't think that and that's what a lot of companies need right now. If you're getting mad at what I said, it might be because you're one of them that judges a book by its cover and don't want to admit it. 

Bigal205, this is no way an attack at you, please don't read it like that.


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*I would prefer CV or maybe the Clarion variant, but that is mostly due to being nostalgic about some of my first car audio equipment being Cerwin Vega.*


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

smgreen20 said:


> I was referred to this thread from another site, But I'm here to defend Clarion.
> 
> Their older stuff was top notch (I had an APA4160 that I'd put against a lot of amps today) and they suffered a bit from '99-06, but they're are back to being a great amp. They sound very clean and perform above what they're rated for. Clarions new HX line is destined to make a come back for the company.
> 
> ...


*I am interested in their GH class amps, would be interesting to test out based on what I have read about that topology.*


----------



## D1g1tal V3n0m (Dec 24, 2008)

I came from a KS 300.4 and PDX 1000.1 to a Arc 900.6 and I can say I've been very happy with my Arc products based on their size, design and efficiency. I however payed nowhere near retail as I bought off the classifieds here.

With that said would I pay full retail price? No but that goes for anything. I picked up the 900.6 for 300$ which to me is a steal given it is one of the only amps aside from the JL 900/5 with the power and size requirements I wanted. I would love to have a JL HD 900/5 but I am not going to pay anywhere near their asking price. 450$ yes but not 800-900$. In the end it comes down to what you're willing to pay and settle for.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

I ran the Clarion DPX-11551 mono for a while in my car and it's a SOLID amp. It was also a killer deal when Crutchfield was clearing them out. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the newer Class G/H Clarion amps to anyone. Low noise floor, clean power, and low price. That's a good combo IMHO.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I soaked my wires in the sweat of Norwegian virgin women therefore my system sounds good. Got the measurements to prove it too!



It looks kinda like this___________^________V----------____________


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

geez, if i can put my hands on a apx4361 ill put it against my 300.4...

Output on scope, parts quality, etc... I'm ok with the fact that they could be the exact same, just want some real answer.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

smgreen20 said:


> I was referred to this thread from another site, But I'm here to defend Clarion.
> 
> Their older stuff was top notch (I had an APA4160 that I'd put against a lot of amps today) and they suffered a bit from '99-06, but they're are back to being a great amp. They sound very clean and perform above what they're rated for. Clarions new HX line is destined to make a come back for the company.
> 
> ...



BigAl was not talking bad about the Clarions, just so you know.

He was simply stating they have many models that are also just like the Arcs.

With that said, I've never suggested Arc was bad, just way over priced with some unjustified perception of higher quality than many other brands when in reality, they aren't, unless people think CV and Clarion are also equally "high end".


----------



## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Yeah, I'm actually considering the Clarions, myself. I was just pointing it out...


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

basshead said:


> geez, if i can put my hands on a apx4361 ill put it against my 300.4...
> 
> Output on scope, parts quality, etc... I'm ok with the fact that they could be the exact same, just want some real answer.


I'm not directly comparing the Arc/Clarion/CV thing. I was just stating my experience with the big Clarion monoblock. I am an Arc Audio supporter as Fred is a friend of mine. So I stay out of the comparison discussion.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> I'm not directly comparing the Arc/Clarion/CV thing. I was just stating my experience with the big Clarion monoblock. I am an Arc Audio supported as Fred is a friend of mine. So I stay out of the comparison discussion.


hehe sorry my reaction wasn't after your post, just want to know if there's a difference in the build quality and the output of the amps. I know that the Arc have Arc branded caps, but are they just re-branded and they use the same one in the CV or Clarion. Like their subs, yes the arc8 is a direct match to the id8 but the arc10-15 are unique and sound pretty good IMO.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Well, we know Arc does not make capacitors, so they are just recovered caps of an unknown brand.


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

89grand said:


> Well, we know Arc does not make capacitors, so they are just recovered caps of an unknown brand.


lol i know that... just want to see if they have the same spec...


----------



## Ovalevader (Jun 21, 2010)

89grand said:


> I get it now, I see you have Arc amps.:laugh:


Indeed I do. And like others have said, no, I would not pay retail for them. They can be had from less than honest dealers for close to the clarion pricing. I'd like to see a side to side comparison as well, and wouldn't mind at all to see the clarions do just as well.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Ovalevader said:


> Indeed I do. And like others have said, no, I would not pay retail for them. They can be had from less than honest dealers for close to the clarion pricing. I'd like to see a side to side comparison as well, and wouldn't mind at all to see the clarions do just as well.


Well, ok. All indications are that they are exactly the same. It seemed as though earlier you were suggesting the Arcs were better with no data to prove that. Over the years here, there has been a lot more data to suggest they are the same which is the reason I made that comment.

Anyway, they are just amps, in the rare event Arc actually used a few better resistors or caps here and there, it wouldn't make a sonic difference more than likely, anyway. The Arcs, Clarions, Cerwin Vegas, Elf Audio, Wet Sounds etc, all seem to be pretty decent designed amps. I'd pick the cheapest, simply because I don't like spending more money for a badge, but that's just me. Many people don't know that Arc just sells common designed amps.


----------



## Ovalevader (Jun 21, 2010)

89grand said:


> Well, ok. All indications are that they are exactly the same. It seemed as though earlier you were suggesting the Arcs were better with no data to prove that. Over the years here, there has been a lot more data to suggest they are the same which is the reason I made that comment.
> 
> Anyway, they are just amps, in the rare event Arc actually used a few better resistors or caps here and there, it wouldn't make a sonic difference more than likely, anyway. The Arcs, Clarions, Cerwin Vegas, Elf Audio, Wet Sounds etc, all seem to be pretty decent designed amps. I'd pick the cheapest, simply because I don't like spending more money for a badge, but that's just me. Many people don't know that Arc just sells common designed amps.


I still stand by my statement saying that I don't think they aren't exactly the same, but like you said, I have no data (or measurements  ) to back that up. But my post wasn't neccesarily directed at the ks vs. clarion debate, just at the common build house debacle in general.

I got my KS amps because I wanted solid reliable power, Arc is about 50 miles from my house, and they have some awesome customer support. I have already walked in with an amp that didn't go into protect when a sub blew, and they replaced it on the spot, lets see clarion do that... btw for what I paid over the clarion amps for my KS amps, I'd definately consider the customer support and not stupid looking casing a great deal.


----------



## RG_Nik (Jul 24, 2010)

Well, as long as you all keep grabbing images off of UBUY's website, and I keep reading the website access logs, I'll keep chiming in from time to time.


The images on UBUYs website are representative examples of amplifiers in that class and power range that have been designed and sold in the past. The are there as a spring board for future designs. UBUY does very little ODM work (Original Design Manufacturing) Where UBUY owns the entire design, and tries to sell that off to as many people as possible. Slapping your brand on it. You have to check NAS, Actiway, and several other ODM rebranders. That being said, there are some designs that UBUY does that with. But for the most part those are all considered entry level products. 


Most of UBUYs work is OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturing). Where a customer will come to them, asking for specific features for a product. Or a product similar to one that was designed previously. They may then get a discount on engineering fees if they agree to let that same product be sold with cosmetic changes, or changes to the front end, or power. Or more often, an agreement for marketed application, or region. Watching these forums it is pretty clear that most that comment are in the United States. As UBUY does sell worldwide, and there are a lot of other great amplifiers out there. And a lot of great ones that aren't manufactured by UBUY or designed by us, (Nikola). 


And if you are interested in having an amplifier or other piece designed or manufactured for you. Give UBUY a shout. But do shop around as well.
(Edit) That does defeat the purpose of DIY Sorry about that.  

RG_Nik


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

RG_Nik said:


> Well, as long as you all keep grabbing images off of UBUY's website, and I keep reading the website access logs, I'll keep chiming in from time to time.
> 
> 
> The images on UBUYs website are representative examples of amplifiers in that class and power range that have been designed and sold in the past. The are there as a spring board for future designs. UBUY does very little ODM work (Original Design Manufacturing) Where UBUY owns the entire design, and tries to sell that off to as many people as possible. Slapping your brand on it. You have to check NAS, Actiway, and several other ODM rebranders. That being said, there are some designs that UBUY does that with. But for the most part those are all considered entry level products.
> ...


What be really nice is if you shed some light on the fact that many Arc amps appear identical to other amps sold by other companies, such as those mentioned, because many Arc owners refuse to believe that Arc amps are not designed by Arc or unique, but you probably can't do that.


----------



## RG_Nik (Jul 24, 2010)

89grand said:


> What be really nice is if you shed some light on the fact that many Arc amps appear identical to other amps sold by other companies, such as those mentioned, because many Arc owners refuse to believe that Arc amps are not designed by Arc or unique, but you probably can't do that.


True, I can't. All I can really say, is that Arc pushes hard for new designs. And is the most interested in pushing the envelope for something new. Where others may be more interested in stability, and others just plain cost. In general, if you see two that look identical, it's probably Arc's first, and they probably have the most intimate knowledge of what is inside when you need help for it. As well, they probably paid the most for engineering, and need to make that back. Arc and Clarion will probably never be the same. They both have very different desires for the front ends and features.

RG_Nik


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

RG_Nik said:


> True, I can't. All I can really say, is that Arc pushes hard for new designs. And is the most interested in pushing the envelope for something new. Where others may be more interested in stability, and others just plain cost. In general, if you see two that look identical, it's probably Arc's first, and they probably have the most intimate knowledge of what is inside when you need help for it. As well, they probably paid the most for engineering, and need to make that back. Arc and Clarion will probably never be the same. They both have very different desires for the front ends and features.
> 
> RG_Nik


So they basically order out of a catalog?


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

That's not what he said. He said Arc tells Nikola what they want, Nikola designs it, and UBUY builds it.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

quality_sound said:


> That's not what he said. He said Arc tells Nikola what they want, Nikola designs it, and UBUY builds it.


I see a bunch of "probably"'s. He didn't say much of anything.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

About product knowledge and if they will ever be the same or not. He wasn't talking about the design and build process. He seemed pretty firm about that from his posts so far.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

quality_sound said:


> About product knowledge and if they will ever be the same or not. He wasn't talking about the design and build process. He seemed pretty firm about that from his posts so far.


Still doesn't make sense to me.

Couple of things:

1. If ARC is paying for all of the upfront development work (R&D, Engineering, etc) how are they recouping costs, plus turning a profit when they're not a huge seller of product?

2. Why would ARC allow their "proprietary" products to be used by other companies for profit?


----------



## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Maybe because Nikola (the design team) is contracted by Ubuy, not by ARC directly?

Design Engineering UBUY Industrial Inc


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

TREETOP said:


> Maybe because Nikola (the design team) is contracted by Ubuy, not by ARC directly?
> 
> Design Engineering UBUY Industrial Inc


Which means it's possible that designs can be shared across brand, right?


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Let's just be glad we're past "Arc designs and builds their own stuff including the capacitors, and everything that appears to be the same is a complete illegal and poor performing knockoff, including like products from corporations 10 times the size of Arc".:laugh:


----------



## freemind (Sep 11, 2008)

In defense of ARC, word has it that they use one special resistor on the board which makes the amp much, much more expensive...............................


----------



## RG_Nik (Jul 24, 2010)

bassfromspace said:


> Which means it's possible that designs can be shared across brand, right?



It has happened, and will happen again. But it's not that common. You may see it, because you are looking at a few small examples of UBUY amplifiers, but we at Nikola have designed up to 20 amplifiers in one year. And that's usually not the entry lines which are designed in Taiwan. Not so much the past couple years with the economy, (GO OUT AND BUY AMPS!). It generally is a case of agreements for regions or application. The Class D amplifiers are considered entry level at this point. And are being designed to ship as many as possible. Classic ODM sale, with very little room for customization. 

It's pretty difficult to stay in business only selling SE level amplifiers, (small market) So Arc needs an entry line that will get people buying their brand. And hopefully upgrade to the better Mini's, KAR or SE lines. And everyone else that sells a range of products from entry level to high end all are in the same boat. 

They all have special features that are then added to the mid and high end lines that distinguish them from the crowd of entry level amplifiers. If all you buy or look at is entry level. Really all you have to choose from is customer service. And I'm not in a position where I could say anything about any of UBUY's customers service departments. 

RG_Nik


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

RG_Nik said:


> It has happened, and will happen again. But it's not that common. You may see it, because you are looking at a few small examples of UBUY amplifiers, but we at Nikola have designed up to 20 amplifiers in one year. And that's usually not the entry lines which are designed in Taiwan. Not so much the past couple years with the economy, (GO OUT AND BUY AMPS!). It generally is a case of agreements for regions or application. The Class D amplifiers are considered entry level at this point. And are being designed to ship as many as possible. Classic ODM sale, with very little room for customization.
> 
> It's pretty difficult to stay in business only selling SE level amplifiers, (small market) So Arc needs an entry line that will get people buying their brand. And hopefully upgrade to the better Mini's, KAR or SE lines. And everyone else that sells a range of products from entry level to high end all are in the same boat.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I've drug this out long enough.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

RG_Nik said:


> And if you are interested in having an amplifier or other piece designed or manufactured for you. Give UBUY a shout. But do shop around as well. (Edit) That does defeat the purpose of DIY Sorry about that.
> 
> RG_Nik


Serious question: what's your minimum order size for an amp made from cobbled together boards from your existing amps? 



RG_Nik said:


> True, I can't. All I can really say, is that Arc pushes hard for new designs. And is the most interested in pushing the envelope for something new.


You're making a false distinction here, though. It seems, from ownership records and such, that Arc is just the direct sales line in the US for Ubuy. So to speak of them as separate entities may be technically correct, but functionally not as much so. 



RG_Nik said:


> In general, if you see two that look identical, it's probably Arc's first, and they probably have the most intimate knowledge of what is inside when you need help for it.


One must presume, of course, that you're designing amps for which people won't *need* help. They'll work out of the box, and keep working until either the caps dry out in 20+ years, or until somebody does something stupid in the course of installing or uninstalling. If that is not in fact the case, one shouldn't buy Nikola Engineering designed amps. One should in fact run far far away from them.



RG_Nik said:


> The Class D amplifiers are considered entry level at this point. And are being designed to ship as many as possible. Classic ODM sale, with very little room for customization.


What does the class of amp have to do with anything? By "customization" I assume you mean front end processing and so on. 

Another serious question: if you guys design 20+ amps a year, how come the only compact ones that have come out of all that work seem to be the Class G/H mini design used as the elfAudio 2125X, various Eton and Wet Sounds amps, and as the "Mini" amps for another generic reseller whose name I cannot recall at this moment? Given that cars around the world are both smaller and expected to do more than cars in the US, one would reasonably expect much more interest in compact amplifier designs.


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

freemind said:


> In defense of ARC, word has it that they use one special resistor on the board which makes the amp much, much more expensive...............................


*If you had said capacitor instead......*


----------



## Ovalevader (Jun 21, 2010)

89grand said:


> Let's just be glad we're past "Arc designs and builds their own stuff including the capacitors, and everything that appears to be the same is a complete illegal and poor performing knockoff, including like products from corporations 10 times the size of Arc".:laugh:


Not saying they are as big as clarion, but arc is a decent sized company, they sell quite a bit of the mini amps for motorcycle use, they pretty much have that market locked down.


----------



## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

Ovalevader said:


> Not saying they are as big as clarion, but arc is a decent sized company, they sell quite a bit of the mini amps for motorcycle use, they pretty much have that market locked down.




According to who?

There are a dozen other cheaper amps with the same or better performance that are commonly used for that purpose.


----------



## Ovalevader (Jun 21, 2010)

rommelrommel said:


> According to who?
> 
> There are a dozen other cheaper amps with the same or better performance that are commonly used for that purpose.


In my area atleast (which is close to the arc facility) it is very rare to see anything but an arc mini going into a motorcycle.


----------



## RG_Nik (Jul 24, 2010)

DS-21 said:


> Serious question: what's your minimum order size for an amp made from cobbled together boards from your existing amps?


That's much more a question for UBUY then for us. We just design. I have seen it as low as 200pcs, but the number is a variable on all the costs involved, and trust in the customer. It's really nothing I can give a real answer for.




DS-21 said:


> You're making a false distinction here, though. It seems, from ownership records and such, that Arc is just the direct sales line in the US for Ubuy. So to speak of them as separate entities may be technically correct, but functionally not as much so.



For us they operate as fully independent units. And really aren't treated any differently then any other UBUY Customer. About the only special service they get, is their design group is on the same time zone as us, and phone during business hours.




DS-21 said:


> One must presume, of course, that you're designing amps for which people won't *need* help. They'll work out of the box, and keep working until either the caps dry out in 20+ years, or until somebody does something stupid in the course of installing or uninstalling. If that is not in fact the case, one shouldn't buy Nikola Engineering designed amps. One should in fact run far far away from them.



That is always the goal. If we weren't designing reliable products, we wouldn't be designing for very long. But as a lot of our products are higher end, and a good portion of the people buying them are the sort that want to get into the guts and change things, then you want to be able to get a hold of someone that might give you hints on accomplishing the install you want. The difference between a model like the Arc SE line, where the manual has directions for taking the cover off, and how to paint the logo vs. an amplifier that as a warranty void sticker across a joint.




DS-21 said:


> What does the class of amp have to do with anything? By "customization" I assume you mean front end processing and so on.



If you are wanting an entry level amplifier, you aren't going to want to pay for a lot of engineering, that will take the price well out of the entry level market. So there is less financial ability to customize, and they all start to look very much the same. If you wanted an amp like the SE line, you pay a lot more, but you get exactly the features and cosmetics you want. 



DS-21 said:


> Another serious question: if you guys design 20+ amps a year, how come the only compact ones that have come out of all that work seem to be the Class G/H mini design used as the elfAudio 2125X, various Eton and Wet Sounds amps, and as the "Mini" amps for another generic reseller whose name I cannot recall at this moment? Given that cars around the world are both smaller and expected to do more than cars in the US, one would reasonably expect much more interest in compact amplifier designs.


Well, that would be nice, but it's mostly a matter of time. We don't really have a lot to spare on new springboard platforms for smaller designs. We are working on several designs right now, in Class D and GH, and with and without DSP front ends. But as long as companies keep paying for large amps, it's the companies that pay first that get what they want first. And though, many of our annual designs are just design refreshes, for us, they have to be treated as all new designs. An amplifier is really just a good study in power management and efficiency. And every layout change, cosmetic change, or power change, will effect how well the amplifier manages heat and stability. Add the ISO documentation requirements for production, testing documents and qualification documentation, it just takes time.


----------



## sweatervest (May 14, 2020)

basshead said:


> Ill admit that for most it shouldn't be a factor. For me it was removing the bass generator module from a KS1000.1BX, they quickly point to what was needed and it did work. They could also provide me with parts, i wanted a new cover for my amps and they had it. Call CV,Clarion,etc... I'm pretty sure no one would have bother to answer me.


hey Man, I was hoping you coiuld help me. I also have a arc audio KS 1000.1bx that i would love to remove the bass generator from. can you help me with instruction on how to remove it and still have full use of the amplifier?


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

sweatervest said:


> hey Man, I was hoping you coiuld help me. I also have a arc audio KS 1000.1bx that i would love to remove the bass generator from. can you help me with instruction on how to remove it and still have full use of the amplifier?


Unplug the Bass Generator board then find the missing resistor at R185 and install a 2000 ohm resistor in its place. This will completely bypass the Bass Generator.
The resistor is 1/8 watt surface mount in a 0805 package and ideally in a 1% tolerance. I think you can find those at mouser or digikey. HTH


----------



## sweatervest (May 14, 2020)

basshead said:


> Unplug the Bass Generator board then find the missing resistor at R185 and install a 2000 ohm resistor in its place. This will completely bypass the Bass Generator.
> The resistor is 1/8 watt surface mount in a 0805 package and ideally in a 1% tolerance. I think you can find those at mouser or digikey. HTH


thanks alot man. I just finished with the amp about ten minutes ago. the closest surface resistor i found was 2.1Kohm. I removed the bx board and installed that resistor in the r185 spot and BOOM!! Thank you for your help as arc audio was none.


----------

