# 13w7 vs 2 12w6v3



## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Currently running the 12w6v3 in JL's HO box in a Tahoe. I'm wanting more bass to match my frontstage. Specifically I want that punch you in the chest bass. Nice and tight and accurate bass. Mostly listen to rap, some rock. The sub(s) needs to play low. The single 12 really seems to struggle with the lows, I'm guessing this is due to the enclosure. I've come across several posts stating that the HO boxes are tuned quite high. Since I already have the 1 12w6 I could add another for a final impedance load of 1 ohm. Either the 2 12w6 or 1 13w7 would be placed in a ported box to JL's specs. For the time being will run the same amp (RF Punch 1000 - birthsheet 1484W [email protected] 1 ohm). The W7 would have to be run at 0.75 ohms. Beyond the official specs on the amp but I've read that the RF amps do okay, and understand the risk. The other sub I'm considering is the RF T2 13" but I can't seem to find any significant real world reviews. I'd appreciate any input and other suggestions.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

The 13W7 will have a bit more displacement, but it would be cheaper to get another 12W6 since you already have one. Can't say what the HO boxes are tuned at, but I'm sure that's why you're not getting the low end response you're looking for. 

If I had the space I'd put an 18" sub back there.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

the 2 12s ported should get very close to the 13 w7 if not louder, and sound better doing it. will end up being about the same box size lol. jl undersizes there boxes because smaller sells more subs, so build to win isd specs or upsize jl's box about 15 percent


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

My only concern is will this be "enough." I am finally to the point I'm satisfied with my front stage, but I do not want to have to do the sub again after this. I still keep thinking about that rockford sub although it needs a box about twice the size of the w7


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

I modeled out a box for a w7 at one point and the one I got was about double the size that JL recommends. The thing about these subs is they can go REALLY deep in a big box WITH a flat response but that is probably even deeper than you are thinking when you say deep. I'd make one that goes down to about 30hz or maybe slightly higher than that. It will be alot bigger than a JL box. But it will sound better and go deeper. As far as punch you in the chest bass you should be pretty close to that line with either of the setups you are proposing. Hopefully you are over it.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

GMCtrk said:


> My only concern is will this be "enough." I am finally to the point I'm satisfied with my front stage, but I do not want to have to do the sub again after this. I still keep thinking about that rockford sub although it needs a box about twice the size of the w7



What's your front stage consist of, & what's the maximum enclosure volume you're willing to go with?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

2 12s over a 17 year old 13.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

fish said:


> What's your front stage consist of, & what's the maximum enclosure volume you're willing to go with?


Focal 165KRX2, mids in doors, tweets in A pillars run passive off RF p500x2 (339x2)

Box volume I have no problem going 4-5 cubes. The transverse width of the rear is 44-48" I believe so I'd have no problem using all that. I really want the sub pointing up and port back since I still use the rear for loading groceries and whatnot.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Technically you want the woofers and port on the same plane


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

How 'bout a pair of 13W3v3-4's vented? Per JL: 2.25cf net per sub with a tuning frequency of 27hz, which is on the lower side in a vehicle.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

fish said:


> How 'bout a pair of 13W3v3-4's vented? Per JL: 2.25cf net per sub with a tuning frequency of 27hz, which is on the lower side in a vehicle.


Would that not be a "downgrade" from the W6?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

They will give you more output for the given space you have over the pair of 12's, & should dig deeper.


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## riceandpho (Dec 30, 2009)

go with 2 12w6v3 in ported enclosure.

i have them in avpriority sub box, good build, sounds really good.
i came from a 2 15s rockford fosgate punch 3 in a ported box. the jl do sound better, louder too.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

riceandpho said:


> go with 2 12w6v3 in ported enclosure.
> 
> i have them in avpriority sub box, good build, sounds really good.
> i came from a 2 15s rockford fosgate punch 3 in a ported box. the jl do sound better, louder too.


I've definitely been eyeing that box on ebay. Looks very high quality.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

A 13W7 is a hell of a sub. A friend of mine had 2 13W7s in a Tahoe on a 1000/1 per sub. They hit so hard you couldn't sit in the car. Absolutely WAY too much sub for me...which is ironic since I have a 10W7 in my vette. Remember, you should always over build it and turn it down to your liking, versus under building and turning it up past is design parameters.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> A 13W7 is a hell of a sub. A friend of mine had 2 13W7s in a Tahoe on a 1000/1 per sub. They hit so hard you could sit in the car. Absolutely WAY too much sub for me...which is ironic since I have a 10W7 in my vette. Remember, you should always over build it and turn it down to your liking, versus under building and turning it up past is design parameters.


thank you for this post! Yes, this is what I want to do, overbuild it then turn it down to the level I want (with the capability to go up if needed). Now, were those 13w7s sealed or ported?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

GMCtrk said:


> thank you for this post! Yes, this is what I want to do, overbuild it then turn it down to the level I want (with the capability to go up if needed). Now, were those 13w7s sealed or ported?


Ported box. Definitely an SPL build. He did something like 155 db or some crazy sh*t like that. They hit so hard it took the wind right out of your lungs.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

GMCtrk said:


> Specifically I want that punch you in the chest bass. Nice and tight and accurate bass.


A lot of that 'hit you in the chest' feeling is about dynamics and midbass. 

In a car you get a big notch in the midbass due to the geometry of the vehicle, and it makes it challenging to create that feeling that you describe.

Guitar strings start at 82hz and the harmonics go all the way up into the midrange. A lot of that 'impact' your after is going to be around 150hz.

https://www.seventhstring.com/resources/notefrequencies.html


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

GMCtrk said:


> Currently running the 12w6v3 in JL's HO box in a Tahoe. I'm wanting more bass to match my frontstage. Specifically I want that punch you in the chest bass. Nice and tight and accurate bass. Mostly listen to rap, some rock. The sub(s) needs to play low. The single 12 really seems to struggle with the lows, I'm guessing this is due to the enclosure. I've come across several posts stating that the HO boxes are tuned quite high. Since I already have the 1 12w6 I could add another for a final impedance load of 1 ohm. Either the 2 12w6 or 1 13w7 would be placed in a ported box to JL's specs. For the time being will run the same amp (RF Punch 1000 - birthsheet 1484W [email protected] 1 ohm). The W7 would have to be run at 0.75 ohms. Beyond the official specs on the amp but I've read that the RF amps do okay, and understand the risk. The other sub I'm considering is the RF T2 13" but I can't seem to find any significant real world reviews. I'd appreciate any input and other suggestions.


I have a few questions.
What size power cable do you have?
Where is your low pass crossover set?
Do you have any flex going on in the vehicle (roof, side panels, rear)?

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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

I have 4 gauge from battery to distro block. Have 1/0 on hand to upgrade when necessary.

Low pass is 90 Hz. 

No obvious flex that I'm aware of although I haven't checked.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Too small power cable kills impact.
Below 70 ish hertz low pass kills impact.
Flex kills impact.

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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Go ahead and upgrade that cable.
Maybe experiment with placement if you can.

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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

I wouldn't expect too much on the low end with a single 12 in a Tahoe, but you should have boom and impact in spades.

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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Going from side firing to rear firing gave a substantial boost in bass.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Just an update, I ordered 2 RF T2 13s and T2500 amp. It's going in an 8 cube ported box tuned to 38 Hz per RF spec (tentatively). I need to call RF and see if that tuning frequency is optimal, seems a bit high to me.


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## Redback (Sep 6, 2017)

GMCtrk said:


> Just an update, I ordered 2 RF T2 13s and T2500 amp. It's going in an 8 cube ported box tuned to 38 Hz per RF spec (tentatively). I need to call RF and see if that tuning frequency is optimal, seems a bit high to me.


What do these woofers and amp cost on that side of the lake?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Redback said:


> What do these woofers and amp cost on that side of the lake?


Probably going to hear him too from that side of the lake.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Retail on everything was $4200. I got a pretty good discount. 

Called RF today. Box specs on their website is some generic box. Optimal box for each 13 is 4.5 cu ft tuned to 34Hz. Subs up, port back.

Are there any good free box designers? Approximate dimensions I came up with are 48 wide x 20 high x 22 deep. That's 10.2 cu ft but I'm not sure about the port and all that. Subs will take up 0.5 cu ft total.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Used RE box designer. Anyone see any problem with this box? 

Should the port be moved to the center?


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

https://speakerboxlite.com/subwoofers/rockford-fosgate-t2s2-13

Theres a good website for some basic frequency response graphs and such. You can also download winisd for free and type in your driver specs.

As for the box I would just make sure that the port has a little room to breathe against the back of the car. Too close and you may get excessive rattles and sound quality issues that may prevent you from enjoying your subs.

As for port tuning it looks like you will get a peak right around the tuning frequency you chose. In that case my preference would be to tune 30hz if you can. Some people say that tuning higher is ok and that cabin gain will make up for it. Of course it depends on the music you listen to and the car you put them in. But the reason I reccomend 30hz is because if you listen to music that goes down that low its pretty disappointing to have your high bass hit alot harder than your low bass. And also its pretty safe because your hearing response will be curving off at that point and generally its uncommon to overdo it when you are talking about going that low. Also the subs start getting crazy excursion below port tuning. Those subs can probably handle it down to 20hz just fine but its always nice to have some protection in the form of lower port tuning and as well this will give you more extension before you hit high distortion on the low end.

For me the low end is a sound quality element for sure. But it does depend on the music you like. If you get a spectrum analyzer on your computer you can see what frequencies your songs use. I have even had good success using one on my android phone. Its good enough to identify sub frequency peaks down to 30hz surprisingly using my note 8s mic. But of course this is measuring from my cars system which goes down to about 24hz gracefully.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Bringing this back up. Im currently running 2 13w7 sealed. Would you rather have 3 13w7 sealed or 2 13w7 ported on the same power? 1100 watts x 3 sealed or 1650 watts x 2 ported? I love the punch from the subs sealed. Very pleased with the sq. Want more chest thumping hard hitting bass. Im very apprehensive to go ported after bad experience with RF t2 subs ported that sounded awful.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I do wonder why the rf didn't work out? I heard the 16 and it was clean and loud! could it be you didn't have enough power? any theories?

would definitely go ported off more power, just come alive when you do that. sealed the woofers work harder and I've always said the w7 has a mechanical sound when pushed that you can hear


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

I don't have any mechanical sound from them sealed but i haven't pushed them to the limit yet. The RF subs sounded terrible compared to the w6v3 and w7. They pounded down low but they were slow and terribly boomy. All RF tech could mention is that they were spl subs. I bought them thinking they were sql subs like the w7 but even beefier. Should have gone w7 like i wanted from the start.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

GMCtrk said:


> Retail on everything was $4200. I got a pretty good discount.
> 
> Called RF today. Box specs on their website is some generic box. Optimal box for each 13 is 4.5 cu ft tuned to 34Hz. Subs up, port back.
> 
> Are there any good free box designers? Approximate dimensions I came up with are 48 wide x 20 high x 22 deep. That's 10.2 cu ft but I'm not sure about the port and all that. Subs will take up 0.5 cu ft total.


I didn't realize the "Speaker Box Lite" app had a website, here it is.
https://speakerboxlite.com/subwoofer-box-calculator


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

GMCtrk said:


> Bringing this back up. Im currently running 2 13w7 sealed. Would you rather have 3 13w7 sealed or 2 13w7 ported on the same power? 1100 watts x 3 sealed or 1650 watts x 2 ported? I love the punch from the subs sealed. Very pleased with the sq. Want more chest thumping hard hitting bass. Im very apprehensive to go ported after bad experience with RF t2 subs ported that sounded awful.


A ported box for the 2 you have would probably be cheaper than another 13w7, but I love the sealed box sound. However, a low tuned ported box is hard to beat, output-wise. By low tuned I mean down in the 20's. Lower tuning will stay closer to that clean sealed box sound while increasing output. You could expect an 8-10 db boost at tuning frequency.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

I have a feeling that the 2 ported would be louder than 3 sealed but I'm very weary of the sq ported. I don't want that lazy boomy sound. I like nice punchy bass.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

5.3 cubic feet total sealed for 3 13w7's, 866 watts max power per sub - red. 10.4 cubic feet total ported for 2 13w7's, tuned to 21.1 hz, 1650 watts max power per sub - green. First is without cabin gain starting at 80 hz, second is with cabin gain.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

GMCtrk said:


> I have a feeling that the 2 ported would be louder than 3 sealed but I'm very weary of the sq ported. I don't want that lazy boomy sound. I like nice punchy bass.


I have an RE Audio HC-15 circa 2003-ish in a 4 cubic foot ported box with 3 ports, 2 can be closed. 3 ports open tunes to 46 hz, 2 ports tunes to 36 hz, 1 port tunes to 26 hz. 3 ports sounds like total crap, but hits over 150 spl. 2 ports is boomy, slow, sloppy and hits 150.1 spl. 1 port sounds almost like a sealed box, nice and clean, hits about 149 spl. So don't be afraid of ported, just tune low.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

15 inches by 5.75 inches by 42.4 inches long for the port on that 10.4 cube ported box. That is a huge box.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I agree on ported, most are done for spl but a ported for sql is my favorite of all set ups


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

2.11 cubes for the port, so 12 cubes total.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

12.5 cubes.


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

The rf t2 has a much higher fs than the 13w7. This could be why they didnt sound right. Typically you want lower fs and lower tuning for sq.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Man, the W7s sound good. Was listening to Thriller at enthusiastic levels and the W7s just hit every note well. Tight, responsive, punchy. I can't imagine they'd sound as good ported but like anything in car audio you don't know until you try.


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## riceandpho (Dec 30, 2009)

build a ported box for the 2 w7 you have, just dont drop the money for another one yet, pretty sure you got money unlike myself:worried:

rf subs are do sound boomy, but if you want loud, they do get loud.

all this upgrading got me thinking if i should sell the 2 12w6v3 in ported box and go to the 2 10w7 in ported box.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

riceandpho said:


> build a ported box for the 2 w7 you have, just dont drop the money for another one yet, pretty sure you got money unlike myself:worried:
> 
> rf subs are do sound boomy, but if you want loud, they do get loud.
> 
> all this upgrading got me thinking if i should sell the 2 12w6v3 in ported box and go to the 2 10w7 in ported box.


You’ve got two JL 12w6v2 ported and it’s not enough? How can that be? I’ve got one SA-12 ported and it’s way too much for me. It easily overpowers my front stage and my front stage is so loud it makes me deaf. 

I don’t get it! :inquisitive::wacky::toilet:


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

V8toilet said:


> You’ve got two JL 12w6v2 ported and it’s not enough? How can that be? I’ve got one SA-12 ported and it’s way too much for me. It easily overpowers my front stage and my front stage is so loud it makes me deaf.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t get it! :inquisitive::wacky::toilet:




I'm 110% with you guy told me he has 2 13" on "3000 watts" and it wasn't enough. I don't understand how unless someone is going for just volume with no quality involved 


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

Well if you want that deep tissue massage relaxation instantly instead of after a few minutes as well as hitting the lows hard then 3000 watts would let you do that with a decent sized box


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

openglcg said:


> Well if you want that deep tissue massage relaxation instantly instead of after a few minutes as well as hitting the lows hard then 3000 watts would let you do that with a decent sized box


Exactly. Some of us just can't get rid of the bass, but that doesn't mean it sounds bad. Clean bass doesn't overpower everything, it just provides a nice massage.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Well I've been running the 2 13w7 prowedges for a while now. Looking for more. I am completely satisfied with the sq of the w7s. 80s to rap to edm it all sounds good. But i want more output. I was thinking of adding another w7 for 3 total but i saw JL raised prices. They want 1400 for a 13w7. They're out of their minds. 2 ported should get lower than 3 sealed. Just need someone to build me a box in DFW.


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

My advice would be to go for something like JLs recommended box or go with something much bigger and tuned much lower. JLs box has a steep falloff right at 40hz where your cabin gain is going to be ramping up. Essentially this uses the cabin gain to extend into the mid 30s. But it wont have much output below that. If you design a box tuned slightly lower than JLs recommended it will stack with your cabin gain peak and sound boomy. If you tune way lower than that like 29hz or below then you will avoid having a huge peak near 40hz and you will get low frequency extension.

So those are the basic options. You could have more output that sounds roughly like you have it now. Or you could have a little more low extension and a little more high frequency output as well but sound boomy. Or you can tune really low and have more low frequency extension.

I've heard that you can tune in the middle and get more general output and extension at once and then use a dsp to take away the boomyness but haven't tried it so idk.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Ideally I would want it to sound just as it does now with more output. I was thinking 5 cu ft. Net tuned to 32Hz


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

That actually looks decent. It might sound a little more peaky around 40hz than it does now but it shouldn't be crazy. And you will get a close enough match to what you have now while gaining a good amount of output. Only drawback is that you might not get the low end output around 30hz that you may want. Or at least compared to 40hz 30hz will be weaker. But if you tuned really low then you would not have the output up high. I think you have the right idea and if you want to fine tune it you can get a dsp.

30hz and up should actually have more output than you have now you just might want to shape the response a bit.


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

What kind of car do you have your SA 12 in? I had 2 in the trunk of my Lexus es 350 and it was beyond disappointing. I would much prefer a couple W6 or W7 but maybe the SA's sound better in a SUV? I just started a new thread on this same thing. Should I buy a car or SUV? I just want a pure bliss bass response!


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## LexusLover (Oct 14, 2017)

So are you saying that you are not going to get as good of a bass/ mid bass response in a car as you would in a SUV? I've been searching for an answer to this question. I'm in the market for a new ride and want to get either a car or SUV depending entirely on which is going to give me the best bass response period. Any input?


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## openglcg (Jun 23, 2018)

Thats a bit of a minefield there as each car can have its own gain signature and issues with space and rattling. If you want to go big go with the suv. You have space both for boxes and for breathing room for the subs and ports. But yeah idk. I drive a hatchback and the difference between the 2009 I used to have and the 2015 of the same exact model is pretty big. I think it's due to the angle of the back window changing.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

This thread has echoed my mindset...people look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them a sealed 10W7 is too much sub for me and I want to drop to two shallow tens in a smaller box. 

Subs are like tools...there is always a "correct one" (or many, lol) for the job at hand. Just make sure you know what job you're trying to get done.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

Got the ported box in. Turned out around JL spec. 4.8 cubes net tuned to 32Hz. Need to sound deaden my roof badly. Ive yet to play these full tilt as I don't want to risk damaging the subs until i get my smd output meter wired up. Amp gain set with a -10 dB test tone with dd-1.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Those subs are really hard to burn up unless you're putting out 4000wrms 


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

tonynca said:


> Those subs are really hard to burn up unless you're putting out 4000wrms
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The w6 and w7 both can get rowdy without taking damage.

That being said op mentioned he wanted chest thumping bass. 
That's higher in frequncy than those subs play.

Chest thump comes from the mids and sub combined.
My subs are a set up for sq but combined with my mids give a firm kick in the chest. 
Lower frequcies just shake ****.


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