# Incriminator Audio Flatlyne sub



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Flatlyne sub ?


http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1584255/page/1/gonew/1

Incriminator Audio: No Chrome, No Carbon Fiber, No BS! Period


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Something about Incriminator prevents me from taking them serious.


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## yermolovd (Oct 10, 2005)

"The BL curve of the Flatlyne is so close to being perfect, you would think you were looking at a person dying."

So where is it?


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

yermolovd said:


> "The BL curve of the Flatlyne is so close to being perfect, you would think you were looking at a person dying."
> 
> So where is it?


They've refused to post Thiele/Small parameters on most of their products for months; I don't think they're going to provide any information for this driver either.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I've seen the BL curve and other measurements of the speaker. So they do exist. I'll link Nick to this thread for his response.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

I hear it's a pretty good sub!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> Something about Incriminator prevents me from taking them serious.


I am with you on that one. The fact that they are the "boner" product on this other car audio forum reassures why I don't take them seriously.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I am with you on that one. The fact that they are the "boner" product on this other car audio forum reassures why I don't take them seriously.


Believe what you will.....I've made it's my life mission to make believers one at a time. I think I made 300 or 400 more after this weekend at SBN. I even had 10-15 vistors from a few others companies you guys speak so highly of, one even has the same name as me! 

Thanks,
Nick Wright
Incriminator Audio


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You're from Bama, eh? I know Andy and Robert talk about your stuff a good bit lately. Where exactly in 'bama are you?

I'm in Decatur (near Huntsville).


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

incriminator said:


> Believe what you will.....I've made it's my life mission to make believers one at a time. I think I made 300 or 400 more after this weekend at SBN. I even had 10-15 vistors from a few others companies you guys speak so highly of, one even has the same name as me!
> 
> Thanks,
> Nick Wright
> Incriminator Audio


So does that mean you're continuing to prevaricate?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I'll take a stab at it from the first link up above...



Incriminator Audio
3769 Co. Rd. 51
Rogersville, AL 35652
Phone: (256) 417-6658 (Digital)
Hours: Monday to Friday: 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Central Time Zone (GMT -6)

:blush:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Neil said:


> So does that mean you're continuing to prevaricate?



He was made aware of the thread ... he came he went and we got NOTHING


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

He's not too far from you Bikin.

Shocker that people have already written this sub off just b/c it's been mentioned on SoundDomain. 

You know, morel has been talked about over there too. So has Dyn, Genesis, Hybrid, Tru, Audison, Zapco, Second Skin, RaamMat, Scan, Alpine, Denon, etc etc etc. Do we no longer care about those either?

Fvcking get off your ass and go listen to the damn thing before making assumptions. Oh that's right, all you need is a response graph and some T/S parameters to tell whether it'll work or not. 

Nick, sorry for dumping on your thread.

Get off your ass


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Only one person cited their popularity elsewhere as a reason; that hardly constitutes as "people". Some of us have legitimate questions.


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## James Bang (Jul 25, 2007)

people are too damn broke nowadays to go out and try products w/o knowing specs. T/S parameters would be nice.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

This sub was sold for Infinite Baffle usage if it helps 

In the thread up top they mentioned it was used IB, comes in dual 4 or 2 ohms.

I'm guessing the specs on the Flatlyne are pretty impressive, they mentioned some serious lows on it .




Parameters on the XJ-12 with VCs in parallel (dual 8s).

Re: 3.95
fs: 31Hz
Qms: 4.35
Qes: .67
Qts: .58
mms: 114g
cms: .233 mm/N
Vas: 83L
BL: 11.4
Eff: 87.7db/1W/1M
xmax: 26-27mm one way
Pmax: Lets say 600W which is conservative. If you thermally fry the thing your doing something very stupid.


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## James Bang (Jul 25, 2007)

I'd like to see more reviews on these. Those reviews on that link just reeks of marketing, *IMO*. I'd love to hear/read some real consumer reviews on these.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> This sub was sold for Infinite Baffle usage if it helps
> 
> In the thread up top they mentioned it was used IB, comes in dual 4 or 2 ohms.
> 
> ...



The lows seem to be pretty common on an underhung sub


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Rogersville, AL 35652


PWNT!



Thumper26 said:


> He's not too far from you Bikin.


Yea, man. Google says 45 minutes. 
I think I"ve been to Rogersville. IIRC, it's a small town with a square that people continuously cruise. I saw a concert there many, many years ago and remember standing out front watching folks go up and down one street in front of the building the show was in. It was nuts.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

This is from IA site [reviews], it's for a Death Penalty sub DVC 2 Ohm...

Build quality! Man, where do I start. This sub is TOUGH! The Death Penalty series driver’s are assembeled on site at Incriminator Audio, by the staff at hand. I can honestly tell that this is a very very well built sub, that has been well thought out by Nick himself. The choices in parts that are used are excellent and end up as great combonation for a good sub that you can litterally beat the hell out of, regularly and it not fail. For overall build quality, and cleanliness I give it a 10 out of 10. Great job guys! Just a lil FYI. At dBDrag world finals it took about 5 mins to CUT one of these things apart…normally takes me no longer then 30 seconds…the spiders are very very tough, and secured to the basket extremely well!


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## Scott P (Sep 9, 2007)

I switched to the Flatlyne based solely on what I heard in Steve Cook's truck last year at MECA Finals, and he wasn't even using the flatlyne. Between that and the reviews I've heard from Andy and Robert and others, the first time I will hear a Flatlyne will be when i am done wiring mine up. Hopefully that should be soon assuming I can ever get to the point of installing speakers . . .


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

Yeah I heard those subs and was sold, esp when I had just finished listening to some ID's in an IB setup too.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Neil said:


> Only one person cited their popularity elsewhere as a reason; that hardly constitutes as "people". Some of us have legitimate questions.


That would be me..... but.... since they were touted as Infinite Baffle, I may have to let go of my stereotypes:blush:


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

It isn't designed specifically for IB; they will work in that alignment, though.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

they work VERY well in that alignment.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't care if God himself rocks Incriminator subs in his golden chariot. I still don't take them seriously.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Hmm, claims of a flat BL and no proof seems like a great place I'd like to spend 429 bucks.

I'm sure they're good drivers, but if a company is going to make claims like that with out a hint of proof to back it up, I'm gonna be a bit skeptical about the product. That doesn't go just for them, but anyone out there.

Hopefully some one will be willing to send one to MVM when he gets the Klippel up and running


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

**** its like a zuki amp but its a sub


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> **** its like a zuki amp but its a sub


So you are saying it has been laced with magical, mythical, SQ dust?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Masons make the Flatlyne's. That gives them mystical BL properties.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

I've already posted the T/S of the stock version before on SSA.

I have no idea why Neil acts like he has no idea what's going on, he PM'd me on SSA about it and I pointed him the info at hand.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

Check it...

FL 12 - Finally Audiophile from IA - SSA Forums:


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

How about some independent measurements?


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

npdang said:


> How about some independent measurements?


You're more than welcome to get one and send it off. I have provided my spec's for it. And as always its never good enough or right, next thing you know I'll have it Klippel'd and I probably just knew the guy and paid him off.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

incriminator said:


> You're more than welcome to get one and send it off. I have provided my spec's for it. And as always its never good enough or right, next thing you know I'll have it Klippel'd and I probably just knew the guy and paid him off.


If I read your post on the other forum correctly, you said (QFT): "Bring on the haters!"

Be careful of what you wish for because you just might get it


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> If I read your post on the other forum correctly, you said (QFT): "Bring on the haters!"
> 
> Be careful of what you wish for because you just might get it


Yep, I said that a year ago, before anyone had heard the driver.

I'd say over 20 people got a listen at SBN and they all left amazed and shocked. I will see if I can get a list from Robert of all these people. I know several judges heard the car along with alot of industry folks.

I refuse to be just one man talking and being called a liar, we will get a list and you can ask around for yourself.....Simple as that.....Then if you guys start calling IASCA Judges, Nick Wingate, and a few more people liars. I will just surrender.


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## Scott P (Sep 9, 2007)

^I'll co-sign that, I've already heard from a few well respected manufacturers that heard the flatlyne in daytona, that there own product couldn't compete with the flatlyne.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

incriminator said:


> I've already posted the T/S of the stock version before on SSA.
> 
> I have no idea why Neil acts like he has no idea what's going on, he PM'd me on SSA about it and I pointed him the info at hand.


What info at hand is that? I challenged you on posting your Thiele/Small parameters in February of 2008; seemed like that was the third time we'd been through that already at that point. You sent me a pm saying that you felt what I had posted was an attack and that you had responded accordingly. You never pm'd me anything about anything other than more excuses why you don't provide that information. 

Since then, the only correspondence I received from you was a question about how I knew about the XBL^2 tweeters ADI was developing. I've noticed I'm not the only one asking about where Thiele/Small parameters are for most of your drivers, and surely even you can recognize how comical it is to claim ruler flat BL and not provide any data that agrees with such a statement.

If a manufacturer does not post such information, I believe one of three things:

1) The product lacks a competitive advantage that WILL be evident in the data,
2) The company is not confident in its abilities to compete against other products,
3) The company is not confident in its abilities to convey a competitive advantage it may hold, in spite of Thiele/Small parameters, to their potential clients.

Almost the entire industry, top to bottom, utilizes Thiele/Small parameters and conveys this information to their customers in literature. The fact that you guys have refused to do so for so long is what makes people like me huge skeptics, but it does remind me of the very reasons why this forum became popular.


edit: Looking at your website, 4 of 16 products have T/S parameters, and 3 of those are in your lowest line. Why for the lower line and nothing else?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

There must be a back story behind the bickering that I'm not aware of, but it doesn't seem very constructive. I'll admit that the product naming isn't for me and "Flatlyne". in particular seems a little odd for a sub that obviously isn't shallow - although I understand where it comes from.

Manufacturers making claims without substantiation is nothing new. The problem I'm seeing here is that specific, measurement related claims are being made without backing those claims with much if anything. Without knowing more about it, I'm inclined to believe this is attributable to IA introducing an SQ product when their experience and reputation is based on SPL. 

This is easy enough to resolve - send one to MiniVanMan for review. If IA is confident in their product, they should do it themselves. Otherwise, the skeptics should find a way to do it. When an ED sub was the center of controversy here, several of us chipped in to ship a member's sub across the country to npdang and back. His results were mostly positive and that was that.

Hard numbers are the only thing that is going to resolve this. Without them, this is all just pointless chatter.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Rudeboy said:


> There must be a back story behind the bickering that I'm not aware of, but it doesn't seem very constructive. I'll admit that the product naming isn't for me and "Flatlyne". in particular seems a little odd for a sub that obviously isn't shallow - although I understand where it comes from.
> 
> Manufacturers making claims without substantiation is nothing new. The problem I'm seeing here is that specific, measurement related claims are being made without backing those claims with much if anything. Without knowing more about it, I'm inclined to believe this is attributable to IA introducing an SQ product when their experience and reputation is based on SPL.
> 
> ...


No!

Several industry vets heard the sub and said it was amazing.

We'll send MVM those comments and see if he can't Klippel them.

That should suffice.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> I still don't take them seriously.


Nor can I.


...And I'm a huge GANKSTER RAP fan.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

Neil said:


> What info at hand is that? I challenged you on posting your Thiele/Small parameters in February of 2008; seemed like that was the third time we'd been through that already at that point. You sent me a pm saying that you felt what I had posted was an attack and that you had responded accordingly. You never pm'd me anything about anything other than more excuses why you don't provide that information.
> 
> 
> If a manufacturer does not post such information, I believe one of three things:
> ...


You challenged me to post them and I did and look where that got us, nowhere. 

You're right our smaller drivers have T/S parameters, because those are no big deal and people don't tend to look to hard at $129 MSRP drivers.

I don't understand how 1, 2 or 3 can be true - when I've posted what you all asked for and then it isn't good enough. You asked me for it and I showed you, what else is there? 

Imagine your me - you have an audio company and you produce all these drivers and then you get reviews and then post specs for them and no one believes you, there comes a point to where I don't even want to post T/S's because the end result is, nothing. So far you've seen T/S's and charts TWICE and you still don't believe me. What do you want me to do? I've been around since 2002, I'm not going to jump through more hoops to prove myself. At what point is enough, enough. The fact that I'm even here and I'm willing to argue with you in my mind is enough of a point. I've been building subwoofers and OEM products since I was 17 years old. Respect me or don't, I could care less, but my company is a child I've raised for the last 6 or 7 years of my life now - how do you think I'm going to react? I'm telling you the Flatlyne is an awesome driver and everyone else is saying it too.

Then we get into just send one to such and such and let him test it, why do that? We've already have specs and reviews. It's almost like if your ears love it and the T/S's are slightly off it can't be a good unit.

Sure we're an SPL company - its no secret. We've been famous off of that...don't you think if we can make cones that 350 pound men can stand on and subwoofers that Scottie Johnson can hit with 30,000 watts and live to tell about it. That I can't make a underhung driver that can handle 300 or 400 watts rms. Just because its SQ doesn't mean its can't be done. Give me a few more shows and we'll revisit this topic.

Love me, hate me.....but I'm bringing my guys to the lanes and we're going to kick ass or even your ass!


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## markland556 (Dec 2, 2008)

Seems like a very odd name they have going there... I would like to see a review on them, something just seems a bit off about those...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

incriminator said:


> It's almost like if your ears love it and the T/S's are slightly off it can't be a good unit.


How are T/S parameters going to be slightly off? Maybe distortion plots can leave room for debate over subjective/objective results, but T/S parameters?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

incriminator said:


> Love me, hate me.....but I'm bringing my guys to the lanes and we're going to kick ass or even your ass!


I always find it funny how "competition" always gets mentioned in these threads about products. 

Why do I find it funny? Because I have *NO* desire to compete in audio competitions. SPL bores me and SQ is subjective to the listener so all these references to what is used by competitors just leaves me with this "blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yawn, very boring" feeling inside. Maybe it is a genetic defect but I like to pride myself in *NOT* following the masses like a flock of sheep.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

incriminator said:


> You challenged me to post them and I did and look where that got us, nowhere.


You keep saying this so it made me really curious. Now as I recall, when you first released the FL, you did post a simulated BL plot, so I suppose I can let that go (although it should be measured BL and should be posted on your site right after you talk about how ruler flat it is). So I was more critical than was necessary about the BL plot.

But Nick, where are these posts with information about any of your other products? Even within the Flatlyne series, only the 12" has any information up on it. If you have more, point it out and the problem is solved; case dropped. I will repeat: you did not pm me any information about your drivers, and I can post the messages here if needed. If it's in a post but you haven't updated your website or the SSA shop, then I hope you'll update those soon.



incriminator said:


> You're right our smaller drivers have T/S parameters, because those are no big deal and people don't tend to look to hard at $129 MSRP drivers.


You have T/S's for 4 of your 16 drivers. How is it appropriate to have more information shared for the less expensive drivers, while your more expensive drivers (which require a greater commitment from your customer ) have LESS information shared?



incriminator said:


> I'm telling you the Flatlyne is an awesome driver and everyone else is saying it too.


Your subjective opinions (and theirs) are 100% completely irrelevant. I will never buy a product just because someone tells me they liked it.



incriminator said:


> It's almost like if your ears love it and the T/S's are slightly off it can't be a good unit.


It is nothing like that. A better way to explain it would be that you think your customer is too dumb to be allowed to see something exceedinly simple like Thiele/Small parameters. Besides, some of us know that a speaker is not an instrument, so we don't judge a speaker by whether our ears "love it" or not.

I would have bought the DP 15 and Flatlyne 15 6 months ago if you had shared the bare minimum information with us. Why you feel that your company is so exceptionally trustable above all others that you don't need to share these things is beyond me. Even DD provides more information than your company does.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I always find it funny how "competition" always gets mentioned in these threads about products.
> 
> Why do I find it funny? Because I have *NO* desire to compete in audio competitions. SPL bores me and SQ is subjective to the listener so all these references to what is used by competitors just leaves me with this "blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yawn, very boring" feeling inside. Maybe it is a genetic defect but I like to pride myself in *NOT* following the masses like a flock of sheep.


You're damn right competition is always brought up because that's the only thing I can use to prove a point. I can tell you all day about how good it sounds and show you pictures and charts and yet it still isn't good enough. But if you respect someone or know someone that has a really good car and my guys win, then on some level you have to at least admit we did bring the REAL goods and not just a chart and pony show.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

Neil said:


> You keep saying this so it made me really curious. Now as I recall, when you first released the FL, you did post a simulated BL plot, so I suppose I can let that go (although it should be measured BL and should be posted on your site right after you talk about how ruler flat it is). So I was more critical than was necessary about the BL plot.
> 
> But Nick, where are these posts with information about any of your other products? Even within the Flatlyne series, only the 12" has any information up on it. If you have more, point it out and the problem is solved; case dropped. I will repeat: you did not pm me any information about your drivers, and I can post the messages here if needed. If it's in a post but you haven't updated your website or the SSA shop, then I hope you'll update those soon.
> 
> ...


I never said my customers was too dumb to be allowed T/S's - but the end results is they never proves anything. You're right SQ is subjective and that's why I hate it - in SPL the meter will always call your bluff. 

What I am saying Neil, is if 100 people say the driver sounds good or bad no matter what it is and you have a horrible or great plot and specs is that one chart going to make you go against those 100 people? At what point does common sense come into play?

All BS aside - Do I always delivery or not? At the end of the day looking at my track record that's all you need to know.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Nick, we are building playback systems here. Not instruments.

The fact that you think Thiele/Small parameters mean nothing tells me all I need to know. There are real reasons why I have been asking for these things, and you are STILL refusing to post them. That you continue to avoid doing so is the reason why I don't trust you and haven't bought your products; what don't you get about that?

Now I have made my point, again, and the ball is in your court as it has been from the beginning. Either resolve the criticism or live with it.

I still don't understand why you're defending not providing information that every other manufacturer provides. Do you know something that they don't?


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

Neil said:


> Nick, we are building playback systems here. Not instruments.
> 
> The fact that you think Thiele/Small parameters mean nothing tells me all I need to know. There are real reasons why I have been asking for these things, and you are STILL refusing to post them. That you continue to avoid doing so is the reason why I don't trust you and haven't bought your products; what don't you get about that?
> 
> ...



Once again T/S's prove nothing - you've already seen them and yet you still ask for them. 

This in the convo me and you are having:

Neil - What is your name?
Nick - My name is Nick.
Neil - What is your name?
Nick - My name is Nick.
Neil - What is your name?
Nick - My name is Nick.
Neil - What is your name?
Nick - My name is Nick.
Neil - What is your name?
Nick - My name is Nick.

Repeat.


Don't you know my name by now?

Do I need to post another link to SSA for T/S's?


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Yes, Nick, I must be incapable of reading. Please link me to where you have Thiele/Small parameters for your 15" IA DP.


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

No, Neil lets not change the subject we will get to the other lines soon. Lets stay the course on the Flatlyne that's the topic at hand.

Do you or do you not see the T/S's for the Flatlyne 12?


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Of course I do. I acknowledged several posts ago that you have T/S up for 4 of your 16 products. If you want to pretend that this was ONLY about the Flatlyne series, then where are the Thiele/Small parameters for the 15" and 10" Flatlynes?


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

Neil said:


> Of course I do. I acknowledged several posts ago that you have T/S up for 4 of your 16 products. If you want to pretend that this was ONLY about the Flatlyne series, then where are the Thiele/Small parameters for the 15" and 10" Flatlynes?


Good, we are on topic now! Yay!

The 10 isn't out yet as we have nothing in a cast basket yet. Tooling parts.

For the 15, I just haven't had time to update the site, along with alot of other stuff.

Fs: 25.9 Hz 
Re: 3 Ohms series
Qms: 4.38
Qes: .60
Qts: .53
Mms: 269g
Cms: 0.14mm/N
Sd: 810cm^2 
Vas: 104.9
Spl: 86.7dB 1W/1m 
Bl: 14.6 N/A
Xmax: 18mm


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

**Note-I am not speaking poorly of the product**

So let me get this straight, you justify not posting 12/16 subwoofer T/S parameters because they don't tell you anything?

You expect a customer to design the enclosure, with no direction whatsoever, and account for: 


Permitted enclosure size
Available Power
Vehicle transfer function
Power compression

Etc Etc...

:laugh:

What a poor buisiness practice. You obviously have the capability to measure drivers, how long does it seriously take to measure and update specifications? What are you trying to hide? Poor design? Driver inconsistencies ? I only underline the latter because I have seen it done countless times...


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## incriminator (Mar 19, 2009)

Fast1one said:


> **Note-I am not speaking poorly of the product**
> 
> So let me get this straight, you justify not posting 12/16 subwoofer T/S parameters because they don't tell you anything?
> 
> ...


Once again - we are off in left field. We give our customers direction in terms of enclosure information, power handling, wiring, etc. I don't know who is screwing you guys over on product, but it isn't me, so why do we always assume I'm hiding something or I can't properly engineer a driver. 

The 187 drivers are a stock driver, so sure here at T/S's for those anything else we offer custom changes too. Different coils, suspension, etc. So why list what 95% of my customer won't have. My job is customer service - email me or call me tell me your application and we will make it work.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Here is the problem we know you love her and your description paints this image...










You say she has beautiful hair and what a face you love her eyes, etc..,,

Then we meet her...


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

incriminator said:


> Once again - we are off in left field. We give our customers direction in terms of enclosure information, power handling, wiring, etc. I don't know who is screwing you guys over on product, but it isn't me, so why do we always assume I'm hiding something or I can't properly engineer a driver.
> 
> The 187 drivers are a stock driver, so sure here at T/S's for those anything else we offer custom changes too. Different coils, suspension, etc. So why list what 95% of my customer won't have. My job is customer service - email me or call me tell me your application and we will make it work.


Fair enough, but why not provide "stock" T/S parameters? That is, the drivers in stock form with no modifications. Or are all of the drivers custom ordered?


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

i can see both sides of this argument. Nick's point is why post parameters when his customers don't even look at them.

Your point is, post them unless you have something to hide.

I'm telling you, the subs are incredible in IB. Model up the T/S if you're curious (although personally I've never had BassBoxPro graph an IB setup accurately)


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

damn double post.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

There's really nothing wrong with what they are choosing to do - it just won't win them any customers here. Different approaches work for different audiences and DIYMA is pretty obviously not IA's intended audience. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.


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## 5.7TBI (May 10, 2008)

Why so much hate in here? I just want to hear the driver...


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

i'm pretty sure nick doesn't have anything against posting T/S, but I think it just hasn't been as much of a necessity until now. I'll stop speaking for him, but that's what I gleaned from his posts.


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## douggiestyle (Apr 29, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I always find it funny how "competition" always gets mentioned in these threads about products.
> 
> Why do I find it funny? Because I have *NO* desire to compete in audio competitions. SPL bores me and SQ is subjective to the listener so all these references to what is used by competitors just leaves me with this "blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yawn, very boring" feeling inside. Maybe it is a genetic defect but I like to pride myself in *NOT* following the masses like a flock of sheep.


In all fairness I think HAT thrived off of their success in competitions and it is at least a validating factor is choosing equipment. But, so are T/S specs, so... round and round we go. 

But look at all the attention/free hype it's getting. Like someone else said, Zuki amps comes to mind.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

incriminator said:


> You're damn right competition is always brought up because that's the only thing I can use to prove a point. I can tell you all day about how good it sounds and show you pictures and charts and yet it still isn't good enough. But if you respect someone or know someone that has a really good car and my guys win, then on some level you have to at least admit we did bring the REAL goods and not just a chart and pony show.


well it isnt about the smallest spectrum of the freq range that make a difference


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## Bilbo99 (Jan 9, 2009)

I got two questions.

1) It seems to me that most, if not all major sub manufacturers provide T/S numbers at the drop of the hat on all their subs. They are not shy about it. Why are you? I must say, although I just dropped into this conversation, you would never see Manville Smith or Ben Milne or any of the other bigshots who talk to the forums, talk the way you do. Your tone is alarming.

2) While I care less about the Incriminator Audio name, I am bothered by the use of the name Flatlyne. Gee, why is it spelled that way. Why not Flatline? Oh, because Arc Audio already has a fantastic SQL sub called the Flatline? To me, thats poor business practice and 

The Arc Audio, correctly spelled, Flatline:

Arc Audio


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Here are the results from a year ago for the 13AV2

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/32810-ed-12av2.html

Neils thoughts>

I guess my interpretation of the Klippel data is a bit different.

Yes, this is an underhung driver...the top plate is a sure giveaway. However, I don't think the BL plot is as linear as several other underhung drivers I've seen measured. That type of BL linearity is easily realized in many overhung drivers. Now, that wouldn't be such a big deal, but the inductance is higher than I had anticipated and very non-linear. This is manageable with the right low-pass filter, but still...not quite what I hoped. A bigger problem: coil offset is 5-6mm in the coil out direction; that isn't horrible, but it isn't particularly good either, especially when that's ~20% of Xmag.

Suspension linearity is impressive and very well done on their part. It might be better if there was less compliance (more stiffness) at the outer edges of the stroke, but this driver doesn't really have the motor to use it anyways.

I agree that it comes reasonably close to spec in all respects and is, indeed, a subwoofer designed for low frequency output.

In terms of sheer linearity, it does not approach the W7. But it is still a pretty decent subwoofer and even better if the coil offset was smaller (which could be a problem with this one particular driver, or a consistency problem across all of their drivers). 

NPDangs thoughts>

An interesting driver. First thing that struck me was the unusually large top plate. Looks like an underhung motor or some variation of one. A nice touch was the gap venting holes. A feature I haven't seen since the days of Lambda Acoustics. Also notice the spacer ring is huge. One thing I didn't like about the spider were the rolls are very tall, and sit somewhat close together. Moving the cone up and down you can see the rolls crumple and pop as you reach higher excursions. Given the resin treatment of the cloth, it might cause excessive wear over time. The surround is quite large, and combined with the huge spider give this driver a tremendous amount of mechanical throw, although you will see the surround crumple the further you move inward. Inductance is quite high for a short coil design, but probably a compromise with powerhandling. I like the cone, very stiff and durable although Imho unattractive. During test, the driver was reasonably quiet, better than say an Idmax v2, but not dead silent like a w7. Not that you would hear it in a box, but it's a sign of good mechanical clearances and design. The frame is quite sturdy, and the motor is beautifully finished and impeccably glued together. On to the test results.

This driver is clearly motor limited, which is a good thing for durability but perhaps a small compromise in terms of distortion performance. Fairly good BL curve, but nothing you wouldn't see in a decent overhung design. Small forward offset, I'd put xmax at about 25mm rearward and close to 29mm forward. As you can see, the suspension isn't even close to being stressed and has plenty more room to go. Le curve shows the use of Faraday rings in the motor. A nice touch, and markedly better performance than your typical curve. The motor also does quite well thermally. Hardly warm to the touch, and no signs of any problems. I also ran a quick distortion sweep to get a feel for problem areas. This driver seems to be remarkably clean in the lowest octaves, but distortion rises noticeably above 50 to 80hz. Notice the dropping response at 40-50hz as you move up in frequency. T/S parameters are spot on. Kudos to ED.

My quick impression, this is a low frequency monster capable of enormous output and good performance down low. It also looks designed to take abuse. However, given the distortion plot, low efficiency, and high inductance, this is a driver that you probably want to keep crossed over fairly low with lots of power on tap.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> Here are the results from a year ago for the 13AV2
> ...


All of your practice over the years has really paid off! Excellent summary - very well done. Thanks.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Bilbo99 said:


> I got two questions.
> 
> 1) It seems to me that most, if not all major sub manufacturers provide T/S numbers at the drop of the hat on all their subs. They are not shy about it. Why are you? I must say, although I just dropped into this conversation, you would never see Manville Smith or Ben Milne or any of the other bigshots who talk to the forums, talk the way you do. Your tone is alarming.


Manville Smith wouldn't, but Ben Milne probably would - if he could pull it off and get away with it  Based on the naming convention, I think it is safe to assume the tone is deliberate and either authentic or carefully crafted. This is a good marketing strategy. "Because I tell you so" is actually a good approach to a pretty big slice of the sub buying market. What we are seeing in this thread is the result of Nick wandering into a "bad" neighborhood where the residents are hostile. npdang would have received a similar response if he showed up at an SPL forum with a DIYMA Reference under his arm.



Bilbo99 said:


> 2) While I care less about the Incriminator Audio name, I am bothered by the use of the name Flatlyne. Gee, why is it spelled that way. Why not Flatline? Oh, because Arc Audio already has a fantastic SQL sub called the Flatline? To me, thats poor business practice and
> 
> The Arc Audio, correctly spelled, Flatline:
> 
> Arc Audio


Yeah, this bugs the hell out of me too. Looks like a case of falling in love with the idea but failing in the execution when competitive factors were considered - just too hard to resist the flat line as proof of death thing. Better to have gone with "flatlined", flatliner" or some other concept entirely.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

BeatsDownLow said:


> well it isnt about the smallest spectrum of the freq range that make a difference


Thats misrepresenting, as a subwoofer generally covers an equal or greater number of octaves then nearly any other driver in most systems.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

my sub plays two octaves at the most, 10-20, 20-40, provided there's actually information that low that's being reproduced.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Luke352 said:


> Thats misrepresenting, as a subwoofer generally covers an equal or greater number of octaves then nearly any other driver in most systems.



I guess if you're saying that a sub playing from 1-64hz would cover 6 octaves then yes. Let's be realistic here, we can't hear below 20hz so why even bother counting below that when it's just wasted energy? Playing from 20-80hz is two octaves, which is a MUCH more realistic bandwidth for a subwoofer. The sub might cover as many octaves as a tweeter playing from 5khz on up (both would cover two) but I'm brave enough to say that there is much more information in those two octaves for the tweeter than there is for a sub.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> All of your practice over the years has really paid off! Excellent summary - very well done. Thanks.


Thank You !


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Not trying to defend anyone but some products just need to be listened and reviewed... 
Zuki Audio does not have much infos on their web site however they are getting more and more popular on this forum. 

I understand that Nick's tone is a bit "dry" but I think that I would do the same thing as him if someone was to say bad thing about my company (he mentioned earlier that IA was like his own child he raised for the past 7 years). 
It is also true that it might ruin his potential sales here. 

Having no specs (even though I like numbers) won't scare me away from buying a product. 

To Nick: 
This forum is called DIYmobileaudio, people here ABSOLUTELY NEED numbers lol. 

All the best for your company, 
I think that I'll be waiting for the 15" Flatlyne v.2 for my next project (IB for car or home audio). 

Take care, 
Kelvin


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Actually , NP told the truth about his sub and they still sell 

Basically he designed a jet engine connected it to a butterfly's wing for a membrane.

It sounds incredible, but if you try to use it like a basshead it crumples

Send this guy one Nick for testing with a Klippel
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=181


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

let's see.... why did I stop coming here?


oh yeah. 

Just put some more spiders on it, Nick!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Thoraudio said:


> let's see.... why did I stop coming here?
> 
> 
> oh yeah.
> ...


ROFLMAO 

I think there are 3 spiders on the 13AV2  {low end monster}


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

What is the big deal about getting it tested on the Klippel? We can't hear these distortions the machine can measure. Plus the KDA is only one tool to use to test drivers, and may not be the best thing to use on a high excursion speaker anyways.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

It would verify the claims of Nick [ that it is one of the best subwoofers as far as a Klippel can show ].

Being that it is over $400.00 , the guys want to ascertain that vette means corvette and not chevette


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

thehatedguy said:


> What is the big deal about getting it tested on the Klippel? We can't hear these distortions the machine can measure. Plus the KDA is only one tool to use to test drivers, and may not be the best thing to use on a high excursion speaker anyways.


The big deal about the Klippel is that he claimed the sub had flat bl. You can't pop off and then decide to tuck your tail when called on it.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Luke352 said:


> Thats misrepresenting, as a subwoofer generally covers an equal or greater number of octaves then nearly any other driver in most systems.


How so? Typically... 20-40, 40-80 ... 2 octaves? Especially 2 octaves in one of the least sensitive and informative areas of our hearing.

In any case I agree with Nick. There's really no substitute for personal experience... and by that I mean owning the driver and having time to play with it for yourself... not necessarily listening to it in someone else's car.

By the same token, I think the fact that any piece of equipment "wins competitions" means absolutely nothing. There are so many other SUBSTANTIAL factors that goes into winning... not the least of which is who you're competing against, the personal tastes/biases of the judge, the skill of the person "tuning" the gear, the overall system synergy, the car it's used in, the amount of fabrication, etc. 

On the other hand... it's been well established that certain measurements/specs/objective criteria provide a very strong causal relationship with what you hear. In the absence of personal experience, IMHO the more data you can get on any piece of equipment means the better informed you can be when making a purchasing decision.

The problem isn't with the data being useless per se, it's with ignorant people who DON'T KNOW how to make use of that data OR with unreliable manufacturer data.

T/S parameters are all well and good, but people need to understand that these are SMALL SIGNAL parameters, and limited generally to a rough approximation of low end box sensitivity. It does NOT give you a comprehensive picture.

How about some more useful specs... a farfield frequency response plot, distortion vs. freq. vs. spl plot, a high amplitude multi-tone noise test, large signal thermal, bl, cms, le testing?

My feeling is you won't see these kinds of tests simply because most manufacturer's either don't design/build their own drivers and thus don't have any strong background in or concern with driver testing/analysis, or they are simply more interested in selling on more subjective factors and hype.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

incriminator said:


> You're damn right competition is always brought up because that's the only thing I can use to prove a point.


Except that it doesn't work to prove the point you're trying to prove. Most "competitors" are deaf. And for the most part they've only heard "car audio" gear, which except for very few exceptions (e.g. JBL WGTi) is pretty much just garbage.

To be frank, anyone who thinks that people will buy expensive products based on hype and snake-oil 'auditions' is simply looking for idiots to fleece.



Thumper26 said:


> i can see both sides of this argument. Nick's point is why post parameters when his customers don't even look at them.


What you're saying is that the "other side" is to basically say that he's doing adequate business to ignorants and idiots that it would be a bad business decision for him to put up actual data that will make people who know something pay attention. Which is itself a concession that the products don't merit the hype.


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## Scott P (Sep 9, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Except that it doesn't work to prove the point you're trying to prove. Most "competitors" are deaf. And for the most part they've only heard "car audio" gear, which except for very few exceptions (e.g. JBL WGTi) is pretty much just garbage.


The be quite honest that is the most ignorant statement I have heard in quite some time. It only points out your limited knowledge of SQ competitions and, to a much greater extent, about mobile audio. A few examples since I get the feeling you will need them. The vast majority of competitors can jump in your car and with out knowing any system or install parameters, quickly tell you where your drivers are located, if they are phased correctly, which frequencies are hot, which are muddy, in some cases which brand drivers you are using, and where there are weaknesses in your install. And theis is all before you say one word about what gear you actually use. Furthermore I would venture to say that most home gear is garbage as it pertains to the usage that a car audio enthusiast would seek to use it for. I could rattle off 100 different car audio specific products that are far superior in a mobile enviroment than an equivilant home audio product. Also as far as the JBL WGTI, if that is your reference sub, well then you've told me all I need to know about your scope of knowledge. . . 



DS-21 said:


> To be frank, anyone who thinks that people will buy expensive products based on hype and snake-oil 'auditions' is simply looking for idiots to fleece.


And yet what does this site here do? it clamors over a products (the hype) and then sends it to be "reviewed" (the snake oil auditions) in an attempt to validate one's own purchase and lead others to follow suit. To think any differently is blatantly lying to yourself.





DS-21 said:


> What you're saying is that the "other side" is to basically say that he's doing adequate business to ignorants and idiots that it would be a bad business decision for him to put up actual data that will make people who know something pay attention. Which is itself a concession that the products don't merit the hype.


Again, here is a blatantly insipid remark. Do you have any idea how few people actually understand what a flat BL curve represents, or how significant the Qts is in deciding enclosure type, or even for that matter what an Ohm load is? So Nick might be doing business to "ignorants and idiots" but remember they out number the informed by what 1000 to 1, 10000 to 1. Keep some perspective and realize that a business is such a thing that they are generally aimed to make profits, not keep you and the others in this thread happy at their own expense. Don't be mistaken and think any company out there truly cares what you, I, and any one person on here thinks of there product. 

Personally this thread is the very reason why I and so many competitors don't care for DIYMA. There are just too many people with just enough education to be dangerous spouting off claims and slander about companies, while rarely if ever having any actual merit.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

The spirit of this site is obviously dead if I have to defend asking for Thiele/Small parameters.



incriminator said:


> so why do we always assume I'm hiding something


You're hiding something right now. That's the problem.



npdang said:


> The problem isn't with the data being useless per se, it's with ignorant people who DON'T KNOW how to make use of that data OR with unreliable manufacturer data.
> 
> T/S parameters are all well and good, but people need to understand that these are SMALL SIGNAL parameters, and limited generally to a rough approximation of low end box sensitivity. It does NOT give you a comprehensive picture.


Some people _do_ understand that these are small signal parameters. Once again, the only argument you guys are forming is that the customer is too stupid to be allowed to see Thiele/Small parameters. In some cases, you're right, but when someone asks for them, what business in this industry does not provide it?



Scott P said:


> Also as far as the JBL WGTI, if that is your reference sub, well then you've told me all I need to know about your scope of knowledge. . .


Except the WGTi is one of the best car audio specific subwoofers you can buy.





Scott P said:


> And yet what does this site here do? it clamors over a products (the hype) and then sends it to be "reviewed" (the snake oil auditions) in an attempt to validate one's own purchase and lead others to follow suit. To think any differently is blatantly lying to yourself.


There's quite a difference between qualitative data and quantitative data. Do you not understand the limits of the human ear to discern the things that are being claimed as audible?






Scott P said:


> Keep some perspective and realize that a business is such a thing that they are generally aimed to make profits, not keep you and the others in this thread happy at their own expense. Don't be mistaken and think any company out there truly cares what you, I, and any one person on here thinks of there product.


They care about customers, do they not? They've lost at least one, and if you read on their forum, I am not the only one who has asked for T/S parameters or said "I'll wait until you put them up before I buy."




Scott P said:


> Personally this thread is the very reason why I and so many competitors don't care for DIYMA. There are just too many people with just enough education to be dangerous spouting off claims and slander about companies, while rarely if ever having any actual merit.


Seriously, Scott, what are you talking about? Surely you are not talking about a person asking for Thiele/Small parameters.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Scott P said:


> Personally this thread is the very reason why I and so many competitors don't care for DIYMA. There are just too many people with just enough education to be dangerous spouting off claims and slander about companies, while rarely if ever having any actual merit.


This is exactly what the priesthood always says when the masses decide to figure things out on their own. Nobody is slandering anybody in this thread, unless you consider asking for information slander - which the holders of "sacred" knowledge usually do. 

It takes all kinds, but don't expect much consternation inspired by your disapproval. I'm sure most DIYMA members wouldn't find competition focused forums all that interesting either. I know I haven't. It's a different world and there's plenty of room for everybody, somewhere.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

@Neil, I'm not arguing that consumers are too stupid to appreciate t/s parameters and thus are not entitled to them. I'm merely saying that for those who take the position that "specs" (as they like to refer to them) are useless, those people typically are unaware that the term "specs" encompasses far more usefull information that t/s parameters.

Personally, I find it interesting that so many "competitors" find a need to come here to disparage the community. It most likely is due to the fact that many of our senior members tend to put more credit in a well reasoned and argued post than in "reputation" or trophies. Similarly, you'll find companies that respect that fact are often well received here, while those that don't aren't. 

And as ScottP so eloquently put for us "And yet what does this site here do? it clamors over a products (the hype) and then sends it to be "reviewed" (the snake oil auditions) in an attempt to validate one's own purchase and lead others to follow suit. To think any differently is blatantly lying to yourself." ...... I would submit that this is exactly what companies are trying to do by supporting competition. Rather than having to "prove" to a consumer the quality and value in their equipment's performance, they would rather rely on "snake oil auditions" in order to promote their product.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm sure most DIYMA members wouldn't find competition focused forums all that interesting either. I know I haven't. It's a different world and there's plenty of room for everybody, somewhere.


I am one of those whose blood boils every time someone says something like "Well (INSERT NAME HERE) used this amp/sub/component/wire/battery/etc. to win at IASCA, MECA, or whatever!" I may have unfairly taken it out on IA in this thread and I want to apologize for that!

I just wanted to point out the fact that not everyone will run out and purchase a product just because a sponsored (or non-sponsored) competitor uses it to win a competition! That may work with those in the 16 to 25 age group, but it doesn't hold much weight with me. I tend to do what I want with regards to my daily and weekend vehicles. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't. 

Also, I am not down on competitors either because I was friends with Craig Romero back in the days when he was competing in IASCA!

ETA: One of the main reasons I am so down on what someone uses to win competitions is because I had a few Memphis Car Audio products in 2007. The younger guys where I worked were always jizzing themselves over the fact that I ran Memphis because they heard so many great things about them in competitions. I, on the other hand, had so many problems with my Memphis amps getting repaired under warranty that I swore I would never run that garbage again!


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

npdang said:


> @Neil, I'm not arguing that consumers are too stupid to appreciate t/s parameters and thus are not entitled to them. *I'm merely saying that for those who take the position that "specs" (as they like to refer to them) are useless, those people typically are unaware that the term "specs" encompasses far more usefull information that t/s parameters.
> *
> Personally, I find it interesting that so many "competitors" find a need to come here to disparage the community. It most likely is due to the fact that many of our senior members tend to put more credit in a well reasoned and argued post than in "reputation" or trophies. Similarly, you'll find companies that respect that fact are often well received here, while those that don't aren't.
> 
> And as ScottP so eloquently put for us "And yet what does this site here do? it clamors over a products (the hype) and then sends it to be "reviewed" (the snake oil auditions) in an attempt to validate one's own purchase and lead others to follow suit. To think any differently is blatantly lying to yourself." ...... I would submit that this is exactly what companies are trying to do by supporting competition. Rather than having to "prove" to a consumer the quality and value in their equipment's performance, they would rather rely on "snake oil auditions" in order to promote their product.


Agree on all parts. Sorry, I must have misinterpreted your point the first time.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Np aced it 

Nick won't be selling many subs here 

But at least he has all the money brought in by the zillions of competitors :laugh: , who want to win !!

Get a Flatlyne before you roll down the lanes unless second place is good enough.

Don't forget all the companies that he hasn't named who said .... Dam , I wish we could've built one like that in our 30 years we've been trying :laugh:


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Scott P said:


> The be quite honest that is the most ignorant statement I have heard in quite some time. It only points out your limited knowledge of SQ competitions and, to a much greater extent, about mobile audio.


I'll stipulate that I don't go to "SQ competitions," because I don't find them valuable or interesting. So you can fairly argue that I have "limited knowledge" of them. But based on your response, I think it's clear to all reading who has a broader and deeper understanding of "mobile audio" and more to the point, music reproduction generally.



Scott P said:


> A few examples since I get the feeling you will need them. The vast majority of competitors can jump in your car and with out knowing any system or install parameters, quickly tell you where your drivers are located,


Anyone with ears or eyes can do that. 



Scott P said:


> if they are phased correctly,


That you can oversimplify an issue as complex as phase to "correct" or "incorrect" says quite enough.



Scott P said:


> Furthermore I would venture to say that most home gear is garbage as it pertains to the usage that a car audio enthusiast would seek to use it for. I could rattle off 100 different car audio specific products that are far superior in a mobile enviroment than an equivilant home audio product.


You may venture to say so, but that only shows a lack of imagination and/or competence on your part. "Car" and "home" (and for that matter "studio" or "pro") are all just meaningless marketing labels, without any real relevance to the parts marketed under them.



Scott P said:


> Also as far as the JBL WGTI, if that is your reference sub, well then you've told me all I need to know about your scope of knowledge. . .


You need to learn to read more carefully. What I wrote was that the JBL WGTI was one of the few competently designed products marketed as "car audio," not that it was "my reference sub." In fact, I don't use one in my main home audio system (just the secondary, nearfield system) and certainly don't use one in my little car.

However, assuming you could read well enough to respond to my post appropriately and I had written what you erroneously thought I wrote, your point would not have been entirely unfair. After all, published measurements here show that it does not have exceptional BL linearity over its stroke. However, I am unable to distinguish the W15GTi from an extraordinarily well designed underhung woofer (Aura NS12-794-4A) and a woofer with a trick motor designed to improve BL linearity (Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X) when overall levels do not exceed the limits of the Aura (the smallest piston in the group). However, I _can_ reliably tell a difference between any of those three woofers and the other well-designed woofers with solid measurements I have tried, the Peerless XLS12 and TC Sounds TC2+ 15" sold by Oaudio.

However, by your metric I would think the WGTi is an excellent woofer. I assume cars using them have won a lot of competitions. Now, that doesn't say anything (pro or con) about the woofer to a reasonable person. It just says that JBL Car Audio made doing well in competitions a marketing priority. 



Scott P said:


> And yet what does this site here do? it clamors over a products (the hype) and then sends it to be "reviewed" (the snake oil auditions) in an attempt to validate one's own purchase and lead others to follow suit. To think any differently is blatantly lying to yourself.


That you lack the intellectual acuity to comprehend the difference between _quantitative data gathering_ of the sort expected around here, and a "review" by someone who may well be deaf is sad, but not surprising in the least.



Scott P said:


> Again, here is a blatantly insipid remark. Do you have any idea how few people actually understand what a flat BL curve represents, or how significant the Qts is in deciding enclosure type, or even for that matter what an Ohm load is?


Undoubtedly, you are right. However, people who do understand these things and are interested enough about them to converse about them over the internet tend to concentrate here. Or at least did, at one point... 



Scott P said:


> So Nick might be doing business to "ignorants and idiots" but remember they out number the informed by what 1000 to 1, 10000 to 1. Keep some perspective and realize that a business is such a thing that they are generally aimed to make profits, not keep you and the others in this thread happy at their own expense.


The crux of our difference here is that you find marketeering allegedly high-end, hi-fidelity products to the lowest common denominator is perfectly acceptable, whereas I find it utterly pathetic and indicative of a lack of knowledge on the part of the marketer.



Scott P said:


> Personally this thread is the very reason why I and so many competitors don't care for DIYMA..


And this thread also illustrates why so many DIYMA'ers disdain "car-fi competition." And also why we (or at least I) likewise disdain the unpaid (or poorly-paid) adjuncts of the car-fi industry marketing apparatus (hard to call it a "machine" when by all accounts the industry is contracting at eye-popping rates, and was even before the economic meltdown) who call themselves "competitors."



a$$hole said:


> But at least he has all the money brought in by the zillions of competitors :laugh: , who want to win !!


"Zillions?" Given the state of car audio today do you really think there are more than perhaps a couple hundred unpaid (or poorly paid) adjuncts of car-fi company marketing floating around?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I just don't understand the fuss about distortion measurements on a speaker (any speaker) that reproduces 2 octaves of information in a region where there is little naturally occurring fundamentals, and thus our ears and brains can not perceive any such abnormalities. And given how little excursion is being used at normal listening levels, extreme linearity wouldn't necessarily be the first thing I would put on my list of things that I care about for a subwoofer.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I just don't understand the fuss about distortion measurements on a speaker (any speaker) that reproduces 2 octaves of information in a region where there is little naturally occurring fundamentals, and thus our ears and brains can not perceive any such abnormalities. And given how little excursion is being used at normal listening levels, extreme linearity wouldn't necessarily be the first thing I would put on my list of things that I care about for a subwoofer.


A valid question 

Nick why did you say this > The BL curve of the Flatlyne is so close to being perfect, you would think you were looking at a person dying.

especially considering your intended buyers 



thehatedguy said:


> I just don't understand the fuss about distortion measurements on a speaker (any speaker) that reproduces 2 octaves of information
> 
> I would think that this or many others would suffice ... Your Price: $125.79
> 
> ...


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## AndyInOC (Jul 22, 2008)

I am not taking one side or another, but i wish i had saved my emails that i sent to Zuki regarding their 10" subs and the absolute nonsensical answers i recieved back. Zero T/S parameters, power capability etc. Lets start a thread for that one too shall we?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I mean if someone makes a claim like that, then there needs to be some proof of it. But I just don't get distortion testing in subwoofers. I know Dr. Geddes has expressed some thoughts about KDA testing and it's merits.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

AndyInOC said:


> I am not taking one side or another, but i wish i had saved my emails that i sent to Zuki regarding their 10" subs and the absolute nonsensical answers i recieved back. Zero T/S parameters, power capability etc. Lets start a thread for that one too shall we?


There have been at least a half dozen threads doing exactly that.


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## AndyInOC (Jul 22, 2008)

well if every member here will contribute say 50 cents im sure we could raise enough to but a Flatlyne and then send it to MiniVanMan for testing and we can put an end to this discussion


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

AndyInOC said:


> I am not taking one side or another, but i wish i had saved my emails that i sent to Zuki regarding their 10" subs and the absolute nonsensical answers i recieved back. Zero T/S parameters, power capability etc. Lets start a thread for that one too shall we?


Zuki doesn't make his own stuff, just like the 13AV2 is made in the Phillipines $350.00 was the cost for those

Easy way to remember the spelling is i before e except after C


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## AndyInOC (Jul 22, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> Easy way to remember the spelling is i before e except after C


Whoops! quite right my fingers got ahead of my brain on the spelling!! damn rum!!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Klippel LSI doesn't measure distortion. You can purchase an add-on module that does, but it isn't the most cost effective means of doing it when it costs more than 2-3x what Praxis does, or 10x more than what most other programs charge. It does however measure some pretty useful things such as Xmax, Xmech, Xsus, and thermal performance... etc. Things I would like to know before purchasing a driver.

Now with regards to distortion measurements... if distortion measurements are meaningless in subwoofers however, then why pay all the $$ that some companies are asking? Let's not forget some pretty ridiculous price/performance being asked from some companies for their subs. The most standout in my mind being Phase Linear and Focal although I'm sure there are many more.

Is there some magic, unquantifiable characteristic attached to these drivers?


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## Ttowncls (Apr 14, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Most "competitors" are deaf. And for the most part they've only heard "car audio" gear, which except for very few exceptions (e.g. JBL WGTi) is pretty much just garbage.


That's about the most assinine statement I've ever seen. I've already had this "little box" conversation once, but here goes again. To generalize a group of people based on second hand knowledge shows a severe lack of intelligence. I never thought this forum was filled with ignorant half wits, so what's going on here? I compete. I also have first hand experience in live performances. I listen to live un-amplified music at least three times per month. I'm not deaf by any stretch of the imagination. I don't listen to "car audio" gear. I listen to music. If the JBL WGTi is your reference standard for car audio, I would love to hear how that came to be. There are better drivers out there. The Flatlyne being one of them. 


It was also said that wasting energy on frequencies below 20hz made no sense. Once again, someone has never experienced music in it's pristine condition at a live un-amplified performance. A true musical performance includes things you don't hear, but feel instead. That is the reason I went on a search for a sub that could reproduce every frequency in a live performance, not just the ones that fall into a range somebody said was acceptable. 



DS-21 said:


> What you're saying is that the "other side" is to basically say that he's doing adequate business to ignorants and idiots that it would be a bad business decision for him to put up actual data that will make people who know something pay attention. Which is itself a concession that the products don't merit the hype.


So calling me ignorant and an idiot somehow makes you smarter???? I didn't buy anything Nick built on hype. Far too many people here are quick to insult and join in the gang style bashing with no justification whatsoever. These little boxes on the internet are such a small part of communication, you don't have a clue who the person is behind the post. I'll bet the majority of bashers here totally missed where Nick said he custom builds drivers to meet your requirements. He posted stock specs on everything he is building right now. I don't blame him for not sending a driver to some random person on the internet. I would request a full resume with references from well established names in the business of testing drivers. 


What bothers me most is how quick some people here are to make negative comments about something they know nothing of. You need to talk to people in person and get to know who they are before you start making judgements. What good will come of unjustified negative comments? If I had insulted Nick and his company before ever getting to know him, I wouldn't expect any help or information from him at all. Some people here are missing great opportunities by creating enemies of people for no reason. If Nick doesn't have the driver you want in stock form, he can build it within reason. Am I the only one who understands how BIG that is? 

If this forum is truly formed around greater knowledge and intelligence, let's see some of that spill over into the realm of communication, and social skills. We won't all agree on everything all the time, but some of you are missing that we have a common interest. Music is always intended to bring people together, not create war. Think about that.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Ttowncls said:


> It was also said that wasting energy on frequencies below 20hz made no sense. Once again, someone has never experienced music in it's pristine condition at a live un-amplified performance. A true musical performance includes things you don't hear, but feel instead. That is the reason I went on a search for a sub that could reproduce every frequency in a live performance, not just the ones that fall into a range somebody said was acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


unfortunately, though i agree with you  {see orange highlighting }

Trial by fire seems to be the course taken in some cases [ Zuki can explain this to you as he was subjected to just such a thing ! ].

His amps were tested by Zed Audio and Dr Fosgate they passed with flying colors [ which still says nothing about the personal anguish he has experienced for wanting people to experience excellent music ].

and of course the naysayers were never satisfied { unfortunately  }


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I didn't say that it was wasting your time for stuff below 20 hertz, but rather that there are few natural instruments that have fundamentals below 40 hertz.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Ttowncls said:


> That's about the most assinine statement I've ever seen. I've already had this "little box" conversation once, but here goes again. To generalize a group of people based on second hand knowledge shows a severe lack of intelligence. I never thought this forum was filled with ignorant half wits, so what's going on here? I compete. I also have first hand experience in live performances. I listen to live un-amplified music at least three times per month. I'm not deaf by any stretch of the imagination. I don't listen to "car audio" gear. I listen to music. If the JBL WGTi is your reference standard for car audio, I would love to hear how that came to be. There are better drivers out there. The Flatlyne being one of them.
> 
> 
> It was also said that wasting energy on frequencies below 20hz made no sense. Once again, someone has never experienced music in it's pristine condition at a live un-amplified performance. A true musical performance includes things you don't hear, but feel instead. That is the reason I went on a search for a sub that could reproduce every frequency in a live performance, not just the ones that fall into a range somebody said was acceptable.
> ...


You really had to work hard to take general statements and interpret them as personal attacks. To the extent that there are "sides" to this, the aggression and hostility seems to be flowing in one direction - and I don't think we'd agree on which direction that is.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> unfortunately, though i agree with you  {see orange highlighting }
> 
> Trial by fire seems to be the course taken in some cases [ Zuki can explain this to you as he was subjected to just such a thing ! ].
> 
> ...


The testing showed that there were perfectly rational reasons why people were happy with their Zuki amps and none of those reasons had anything to do with the mumbo jumbo that was presented by Zuki. He apparently also believes that green magic marker on CDs is an important contributor to experiencing excellent music - should that be taken on faith in the absence of any supporting evidence as well? The naysayers were left unsatisfied because a lot of time was wasted on mysticism, pledges of secrecy and artificially lowered expectations when a straightforward presentation would have made things very easy to understand. I agree that the cases are analogous.


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