# Testing Pure-I20 - Bit 1.5 - Ipod/Pad/Phone Digital output



## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Hey all,

I've been trying to build the best system I could afford that didn't rely on CD or DVD's for years now, with some success. I've also used Ipod classics for the past 4+ years for audio books, video, etc. and I love it's interface, its feel and its overall quality. Finally there is an affordable alternative to the $2000 Wadia that allows you to extract the pure digital stream from an ipod while bypassing its inferior internals - and I had to give it a try! Member T3SN4F2 has been really helpful - providing info about his experience with one in the home, testing results and in many other ways - and I'd be remiss not to point out that he is simply a stud! Anyhow, I tried it out and here's some info for those who're also interested in this type of thing. 

PURE I-20 (about 5" wide and 3.5 deep)









*What is a Pure I-20? *
PURE I20) PRODUCT PAGE
The Pure I-20 is a very simply dock-like device which is designed for home use, but which is easily modified for in car use. You simply mount your ipod/pad/phone in place and it then provides: an analog audio ouput pair (left and right), optical and coax digital outputs and video outputs (component, composite and s-video). It then extracts whatever media you select (either using the ipods controls or its included remote) into either a pure digital signal exported through coax or it uses its internal DAC to supply analog outputs (left and right) that you can connect to your auxilliary in. The internal DAC is said to be pretty decent - processing files up to 24-bit 192 KHz, but I'll not use this option enough to comment. Here is a link to some interesting info: Pure i-20 Digital iPod Dock Analog Output RMAA Measurements ​
*Car installation*

While some might be able to find a good place to mount the dock in their vehicle (its not bad looking really), I decided I'd rather have mine out of site. I bought a video capable dock extender for $10 from ebay (like this) and then mounted mine under my console, running the cable discreetly. 

For powering the unit, I used this (also T3SN4F2's finand it works fine. Make sure you get the polarity on the adapter pin correct - test with your VOM but I think its positive center-ground outside):
 Adapter link.

Since I wanted a very clean look, I decided to go with the cleanest mounting device I could find and am still deciding between mount and holders from: Proclip - CUDA and ProFit. I can say that my old ProFit mount still works great and they were even nice enough to send me a replacement permanent mounting kit and base for free - great customer service!​
*Cost*

Pure I20 - $99 plus a small shipping fee
Dock Cable - $10 plus shipping
Mount & Holder - varies up to $100ish for the best​
*Initial Results*

I don't even have the unit completely installed yet, but wanted to get discussion going and share my early thoughts. Others are probably interested but don't want to be the first. Please keep this in mind when making any purchase decisions! 

So far, I've converted all my music to apple lossless and am about 1/3 of the way through with playlists and such, but I'm pretty pleased with the initial listening tests. I've briefly compared it head to head against my Sarotech media player and against the Pioneer DVDs ipod interface. Its far better than the Pioneer and very similar to the Sarotech... perhaps with a bit better headroom and dynamics. There shouldn't be a lot of difference between the digital outputs of two similar audio devices, and this seems true here too. 

The main advantages center around it allowing all of the great I-device's features and benefits to be used while maintaining high sound quality: 
- Sound Check (wonderful - since I have all kinds of recordings from audience concert recordings to high end audiophile stuff), 
-remembering where I left off with my audiobook - video - song
- The very simply to use ipod GUI - - Volume control, pause, rewind and all the other standard ipod controls and features work like normal 
- The ipod features (although the touch, ipad and Iphones have even more!) - you know them
- Ease of removal

The only disadvantages are that ipods video are fussy about the formats they play. requiring a lot of conversion (once). I have'nt figured out how to set my ipod to display its menu on screen when not playing video (haven't looked yet in truth), but this link seems to show some cool ipod covers (think they have similar ones for ipads too) that allow you to create a custom background that would make a nice wallpaper on your main display. Lastly, if you have to mount the Pure out of the way - the remote may not work unless you figure an alternative. I'm pretty sure though that there is very little need for the remote, as long as you can mount your ipod somewhere handy. Also, you could always run some wires from the board to a remote mounted sensor if you needed to - as long as you're handy with the soldering iron.​
Ok, well that is a start. I'll try to add more as I get more time to finalize the installation and listen more. I'm obvously sold on the ipod and its become much more useful now that I can finally extract truly high quality sound from it! If anyone else is using one of these... now's the time to chime in and let us know you're likes and dislikes.

Hope this helps someone....

Jim - aka Less


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

This seems like a whole lot of work for your iPod. Have you considers the pioneer p99 which takes a pure digital signal from the iPod via USB?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks chief. Happy to see you got it up and running without any major headaches.

So your ipod still has volume control when docked? That's strange, my iphone drops the volume slider and goes into LOD mode. I'd contact Pure and ask them what's going on behind the scene with that. Hopefully its not something awful like the device not being compatible for digital extraction and it going the analog out into the i-20 way. 











By the way, your power supply link isn't working.

http://powerstream.com/dc6.htm


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Yep - working like a top. I"ve still not really gone through thorough SQ testing, but based on how good it sounded this morning on the way to work, I'm pretty sure its functioning as advertised. I read a number of very positive reviews on home audio sites and remember reading that the volume control was active as well as many other features that you wouldn't automatically assume would still work. T, do you have a friend with a Classic you could try? (BTW - I don't have it connected via the analog outs - so its getting a digi signal from somewhere)

Erin, I love you man, but you are a hoot. (Yeah - I know - "Pot meet Kettle", "Kettle... Pot"). The first thing I thought when I saw your "a lot of work" comment is your 100 page build thread and all the products you've tried! I had this set to test in 15 minutes (aside from a faulty cable issue) and with another hour or so, I'll have it all buttoned up looking good. I rarely use other sources, so once I turn the B1 on with the DRC, the ipod itself can control everything I do except swap eq sets. It's just very easy stuff. I think my long posts just wear you out!!! =) 

The Pioneer doesn't do video, its a single din, its very expensive and it seems like about half the people who rushed out to buy it didn't end up sticking with it. I suspect many thought the auto-tune would be better than it is, and I know its a fine unit overall, but it isn't for me... at least in my current car. What's to fault with a $100 option that allows anyone with an aux in to use it and anyone with a digi in to turn their ipod or Ipad into a digital source that would be very expensive to beat? 

It's still all about options I guess and while this isn't for everyone, it seems nearly perfect for me. The only thing annoys me is the need to use Ipod video files...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

less said:


> Yep - working like a top. I"ve still not really gone through thorough SQ testing, but based on how good it sounded this morning on the way to work, I'm pretty sure its functioning as advertised. I read a number of very positive reviews on home audio sites and remember reading that the volume control was active as well as many other features that you wouldn't automatically assume would still work. * T, do you have a friend with a Classic you could try?* (BTW - I don't have it connected via the analog outs - so its getting a digi signal from somewhere)


-Hmm, not a Classic, but I think I can get a hold of a 3rd gen nano (ie mini classic? lol). I'll run it through some measurements if it ends up working like yours and see if I can figure out how they are doing things.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Found this by the way. I haven't researched it much but it is supposed to be a better option than soundcheck.

mani.de ? iVolume ? listen to music hands-free


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Found this by the way. I haven't researched it much but it is supposed to be a better option than soundcheck.
> 
> mani.de ? iVolume ? listen to music hands-free


Not to get side tracked but this is exactly what I have been looking for to "normalize" my apple lossless files, but $30 is steep for this kind of program. I hate soundcheck and mp3 Gain doesn't work on apple lossless so I may have to bite the bullet. Thanks for finding this. 

Chuck


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

myhikingboots said:


> Not to get side tracked but this is exactly what I have been looking for to "normalize" my apple lossless files, but $30 is steep for this kind of program. I hate soundcheck and mp3 Gain doesn't work on apple lossless so I may have to bite the bullet. Thanks for finding this.
> 
> Chuck


Depending on how patient you are, it's free with the periodic delayed "buy me" reminder 

Edit: "Though iVolume is capable of being configured to operate without oversight, unlicensed iVolume will periodically cease processing and display a dialog box soliciting a registration in return for uninterrupted operation. This can have an adverse effect on processing large libraries of music as the dialog box may not be dismissed until a set time has elapsed, *the length of which increases by several seconds each time the dialog box is displayed*."

ooouu never mind, no one's that patient......

Back on T


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

So with the i20, if you shut off your car with the iPod plugged in and then start back up later, does the song pick up where it left off?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Neil_J said:


> So with the i20, if you shut off your car with the iPod plugged in and then start back up later, does the song pick up where it left off?


Yes, it goes from the regular ipod screen to the screen I posted above. same as if you pulled it out of the dock while playing. IIRC it will pause the track in those instances as well. 

side note: try the leechtunes apps, it has gesturing and even snaps to the currently playing song when you go into queue mode. also disables auto lock while the app is in the foreground.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yes, it goes from the regular ipod screen to the screen I posted above. same as if you pulled it out of the dock while playing. IIRC it will pause the track in those instances as well.


Awesome. Second question: If you turn your car off, and you have the i20 power wired to the +12v remote turnon lead, does the iPod/iPhone/iPad go into sleep mode? My old pioneer deck with ipod support did this, and it was nice. I basically want to leave the iPad in the car, but right now with the headphone/aux output, it just keeps playing unless I slide to unlock, put in my passcode, and hit "stop" on the ipod app. total PITA.



t3sn4f2 said:


> side note: try the leechtunes apps, it has gesturing and even snaps to the currently playing song when you go into queue mode. also disables auto lock while the app is in the foreground.


Thank god someone found a workaround for that, the autolock is damn annoying in a car (but very necessary otherwise). And hey they have an iPad version for $1.99... I will be trying this out!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

less said:


> Yep - working like a top. I"ve still not really gone through thorough SQ testing, but based on how good it sounded this morning on the way to work, I'm pretty sure its functioning as advertised. I read a number of very positive reviews on home audio sites and remember reading that the volume control was active as well as many other features that you wouldn't automatically assume would still work. T, do you have a friend with a Classic you could try? (BTW - I don't have it connected via the analog outs - so its getting a digi signal from somewhere)
> 
> Erin, I love you man, but you are a hoot. (Yeah - I know - "Pot meet Kettle", "Kettle... Pot"). The first thing I thought when I saw your "a lot of work" comment is your 100 page build thread and all the products you've tried! I had this set to test in 15 minutes (aside from a faulty cable issue) and with another hour or so, I'll have it all buttoned up looking good. I rarely use other sources, so once I turn the B1 on with the DRC, the ipod itself can control everything I do except swap eq sets. It's just very easy stuff. I think my long posts just wear you out!!! =)
> 
> ...


Jim, comparing my installs of various gear in the car vs. your going through a lot of product that is in the electrical signal alone isn't quite the same. 
My 'a lot of work' comment was in regards to the multiple pieces of gear you're running to achieve X goal. 

Regardless, my point was that you seem to be hunting the perfect ipod integration. If you weren't looking for video support, the p99 wins hands down. There's just no way around it. I'm not a spokesman; just another dude sharing his opinion. If someone reading this thread is looking for the best ipod integration without having to buy various pieces and hoping the digital out is all it's chalked up to be (before, yet, still going through some other piece of hardware's DAC). 


As for the p99 comment... meh... I don't see many pop up for sale much and I've seen a lot of threads lately with people wanting to buy them. The good thing is you wouldn't lose much if you sold it. This route, however, would be a different story. Not picking... just saying.
Not sure what the comment about auto-tune was... does this piece auto-tune? 

You seemed to have taken my post to heart. It wasn't a shot at you. Simply an observation. I've been down a similar road numerous times, using multiple pieces to do one job. At the end of the day, KISS is a viable solution, which is why I mentioned the p99. But, again, if you're doing video then there's absolutely no use in considering that. You are right there.


This thread is cool. Good stuff in it. I'm not knocking it. Just saying that others should be aware of the alternative for pure digital ipod transport. 

- Erin


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Most of you already know that the P99 isn't the be all and end all. Although its a wonderful unit for those it fits: its expensive, its single din, it doesn't do video, it requires using pioneer's gui and i don't think it works with ipads for starters. 

The Pure isn't something for everyone and I hope that's been perfectly clear in my post, but it does seem to do what I'm looking for. I suspect there are others who'd benefit from it and you have little to lose in trying it.

It's a very well received product with many reviews discussint the quality of its digital outputs and its analog outputs. As for resale value, you could buy a Pure I20 for the amount you lost on reselling the P99 after a few months - since its only $100 but its also a hot product in the home market and has a high resale value. 

As for the KISS principle, that's your choice, but its apparent to any audiophile that those with the ultimate systems seldom embrace the whole concept that the best product is the one that does it all... you'll find 15-20 components all doing seperate chores in those systems - so its obviously at LEAST as valid of a way of building a system as the KISS principle which counts on one manufacturer to get every element just as you'd like it.

In life, those who talk about new things or things that are out of the ordinary, have to overcome the negativity of the masses who're entrenched in what they're already comfortable with. My quest has long been to build a system that could easily access my large collection of high quality audio and video files and reproduce the sound at the highest level of quality. This product isn't fully evaluated, but seems to be a move in the right direction. Do with that - what you will.

Erin - my only question to you is - how can you say the P99 has the best integration without testing all the options? It may be the best all in one unit, but that might not suit everyone. The Pure is elegantly simple to use, but I'd never pretend to know that it was the hand's down best anything. Also, just to be clear, you don't have any evidence that the Pure's digital signal is somehow inferior to the P99 do you? That's just you're way of implying that its inferior without having to bother actually demonstrating it, right? Just another opinion right? I mean, even though you think this thread is cool and all.... lol, pretty see-through isn't it? 


Jim aka Less


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You put entirely too much thought into my reply. Half of what you said above is unnecessary. Again, I like this alternative. The kicker is the iPod digital interface which the p99 handles well. I presented another option. I don't get why you're such in arms about it. 

The comment about a lot of work is in referenced moreso to the bitone and source switching with your various sources. I've done it before and found it cumbersome. I meant nothing more than this. 

God forbid someone suggest a mainstream alternative.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

less said:


> Would you mind please giving some evidence that the Ipod > P99 combination is superior to the Ipod > Pure (digital out - not analog out) > Bit One? *It's stated as a undisputable fact, but no rationale or evidence is presented. * I'm open to revamping my system if its indeed inferior.



(bolded) 
I have NO IDEA how you got this out of my reply above. Again, I said that the ipod source on the p99 is digital. It's just that simple. Irrelevant of price, the p99 + iPod performs very well. I didn't say it would outperform your option ANYWHERE in this thread. Integration is specifically what I was talking about. Not sonics. Please, don't put words in my mouth, Jim.

But, since you did bring it up, I have done some testing on both the p99 and bitone and found the p99 to measure better than anything I've tested thus far.
Until I had done this testing I had no intentions whatsoever of owning the p99. When I did the testing, I purchased a p99. I was extremely happy to se the ipod results matching the cd results (both of which were extremely great). 

Check these two analysis:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs-pioneer-deh-p9-pioneer-800prs-testing.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...vs-audison-bitone-1-technical-comparison.html


And, for the last time, I presented something I found a more viable option. I'm glad you found an alternative. I had futzed with some back when I was trying to make the mcintosh mx4000 work out for me and finally just gave up. The source switching on the deck/wadia and the bitone's drc were just unnerving to me. BUT, I'm not you and I'm not everyone else here. Still, presenting an alternative and discussing the topic shouldn't be disallowed just because...


fwiw, here's another option I had considered at one point:
The amazing iD100 iPad, iPhone, iPod touch digital dock

^see, I'm trying to help. 



Edit:
I won't keep going back and forth on this. I think my intention here was misunderstood and it's partly my fault for not making it more clear up front. I just don't appreciate my words being twisted in to something that was never said, much less never implied. That said, I think I've now well voiced my rationale for bringing up the p99. Let's try to move forward.


Edit 2:
FWIW, I'm actually considering selling my p99 to go with a more powerful dsp. The problem I'm having is finding a deck that has good ipod control and bypasses the DAC. So, I actually came back to this thread to do some looking at your alternative. At the end of the day, though, it's just not for me because I'm trying to keep from having different source units. But, I am saying that I certainly found this thread useful. 



- Erin


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

"hoping the digital out is all it's chalked up to be"... 
and that's not an implication there's reason for concern?

Erin, the fact that i generally value your input should be flattering. I'm honestly just disappointed that you chose to even bother to chime in with your first post at all. It was simply stated something so obvious that I wondered why you'd waste the time... Hardly anything either thought provoking, worthy of research, or encouraging of any action whatsoever. I'd have expected something a little more considered from someone with as many (well earned) thanks, thoughtful posts and the status of a moderator and reviewer. 

Apparently there is a measurable difference between the B1 and the P99. That is interesting, but doesn't really address the product I was reviewing. I'm still not sold that measurements always reflect how a unit sounds in truth - but they are certainly a starting point for valid comparison and the only other objective measure is true blind testing. I remember when everyone wanted the amps with .002% harmonic distortion or less and how much of an emphasis the audio world put on that... then I listed to the Autosound 2000 tracks with distortion up to 3%... I laughed out loud at how silly we'd been and how we'd allowed ourselves to be mislead about what was important. 

It's also worthy to point out that the Pure isn't made for in-car use. I've mounted a home version in my car and don't know how it'll handle humidity or temperature. It's an expirement - that's it and it didnt cost much to try. Buy and try at your own risk... Still, it sounds good, didn't take long to install and is very easy to control. Plus - its $100.

I'm sorry the product doesn't meet your needs - but I suspect some others might find it appealing... and they're who I wrote this for.

Jim aka Less


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

less said:


> "hoping the digital out is all it's chalked up to be"...
> and that's not an implication there's reason for concern?


Meaning that some units out there aren't all they're said to be. Digi should be digi, but I've seen some crazy stuff before and at the $100 price point, it could seem "too good to be true". 3rd party data is nice to have. Frank may have some on this. I'm not sure. 
That's exactly what was meant by my statement.




less said:


> "
> 
> Erin, the fact that i generally value your input should be flattering. I'm honestly just disappointed that you chose to even bother to chime in with your first post at all. It was simply stated something so obvious that I wondered why you'd waste the time... Hardly anything either thought provoking, worthy of research, or encouraging of any action whatsoever. I'd have expected something a little more considered from someone with as many (well earned) thanks, thoughtful posts and the status of a moderator and reviewer.


To be honest, I think my initial reply was pretty much right to the point. You've got 2 different sources, and you have to switch not only between those sources but also between the volume control on the DRC (analog and digital require different source selections on the bit1 as we both know). The p99, which btw was only a suggestion, doesn't require that and yanks the digital right off the ipod. So, my post was more of a "have you considered x". I'm sorry it didn't meet your expectations but not typing up long winded posts which can be summed up in a few sentences saves us both time. Well, I thought it would... until it turned in to this mess.

I conceded that for video there's no way the p99 is an option (unless you start adding a bunch of stuff on, which gets me back to the cumbersome issue).




less said:


> Apparently there is a measurable difference between the B1 and the P99. That is interesting, but doesn't really address the product I was reviewing. I'm still not sold that measurements always reflect how a unit sounds in truth - but they are certainly a starting point for valid comparison and the only other objective measure is true blind testing. I remember when everyone wanted the amps with .002% harmonic distortion or less and how much of an emphasis the audio world put on that... then I listed to the Autosound 2000 tracks with distortion up to 3%... I laughed out loud at how silly we'd been and how we'd allowed ourselves to be mislead about what was important.


I was actually trying to help _you_. You didn't say, but I know you use the bitone (unless you've recently changed) and if you do then you're still limited by the bitone. 
Granted, not everyone uses the bitone, but again, I was posting that info for you to see the differences. 

Regarding measurements... meh... I don't even feel up to that task. 



less said:


> I'm sorry the product doesn't meet your needs - but I suspect some others might find it appealing... and they're who I wrote this for.


Did you check out the link to the Cambridge piece I provided? It's about 3x the cost of the i20 you're discussing here but I wonder if it's something you or others might find useful.

- Erin


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Meaning that some units out there aren't all they're said to be. Digi should be digi, but I've seen some crazy stuff before and at the $100 price point, it could seem "too good to be true". 3rd party data is nice to have. Frank may have some on this. I'm not sure.
> That's exactly what was meant by my statement.
> 
> - Erin


Yup, no funny business going on with this device.



t3sn4f2 said:


> Below are 4 RMAA test results of 4 different digital sources all feeding the same DAC and ADC (ie the output and input of my soundcard connected together to form a loopback chain; EMU-0404PCI.
> 
> The addition of the DAC out to ADC in interface is needed for two reasons. One, it brings the digital sources timing characteristics to light, IOW if we just measured the digital signal without it being converted to analog, it would simply check that the data was arriving but it would not account for any timing issues (ie jitter). And two the ADC step is needed to digitize the analog output so that the RMAA software can analyze the result, same way we digital the mic input when measure a car for the RTA software.
> 
> ...


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> "too good to be true"
> - Erin


In some ways... I agree


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## gsdye (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for link to this dock. I too wasted too many waking hours looking for a digital out dock (not wasia)for my iPhone and integrating into my car. 

I don't want to give up on my deck. And like controlling the DAC used. 

I have a musical fidelity V-DAC that would be awesome upgrade to my iPhone's DAC and better than using CD and the deck's dac. 

I know this way is more work than using a new deck with USB input but I would have a similar DAC to home.


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## gsdye (Nov 30, 2011)

a little more reading

Pure i-20
Mains power supply: 100-240V, 50/60Hz 7.5V DC 1.2A external power adapter.

Musical Fidelity V-DAC
details at their site:
Musical Fidelity V-DAC Digital-Analog Converter

their power supply is 12V 500mA

both the power requirements are easily done in a car environment. But the Pure i20 DAC sounds pretty good on paper also. Has to be better than the built in one on the iPhone/iPod

------

only issue I can see for both products is the car environment

the operating range for the MF v-DAC: 5-45C and 10-90% humidity, non condensing

the Pure dock doesn't note any operating range


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

One other little irritant - is the fact that the default video output is the s-video/component out, and most car video units still use the standard composite (i.e., yellow rca jack). With the dock mounted remotely, the remote might not reach the receiver although I've found a work around in my case. Still, I have a lot of other video options that work fine: usb direct, memory stick, DVD, and the Sarotech media player.

Since it doesn't have a screen or anything other than standard electronic parts, I don't suspect the Pure will give me any troubles as long as it's kept where no condensation will form, and no slush/rain/snow will contact it. I guess that's why I was willing to risk the $100 - but its not a sure thing and worthy of note. I'll know for better in a few months since Michigan winters can get pretty rough. 

Thanks for the whole "sound check" discussion! I've used my ipod for audio books, pod casts and other non-musical purposes almost exclusively till now, so I didn't realize that sound check was so poor. Constantly jerking with the volume is annoying, so I'm going to dump the $30 too - its a bit more than I'd like to spend though. 

For those interested, in addition to the Cambridge product Erin mentioned, Onkyo also has a similar device called the NS-1 or something. For some reason, they don't sell it in the US but I've seen several on eBay for around $150. It looks bigger, but it also had good reviews. I'm pretty sure there are other devices as well but I can't remember any right now. If anyone else actually tries these products (I know others who've used them but haven't posted... makes me wonder...), I sure hope you'll share so we can compare and learn.

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays too you all.

Jim


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## darinof (Feb 6, 2009)

Less. Thank you for all this info. I'll buy the PURE I-20 to give it a try on my current installation and will be able to compare it with my truck (pioneer p99, zapco amps and HAT speakers). It will be pure I-20 optical to PXA-H900 to some arc amplifiers and morel speakers. I really hope it sounds better than the p99 but I doubt it.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

darinof said:


> Less. Thank you for all this info. I'll buy the PURE I-20 to give it a try on my current installation and will be able to compare it with my truck (pioneer p99, zapco amps and HAT speakers). It will be pure I-20 optical to PXA-H900 to some arc amplifiers and morel speakers. I really hope it sounds better than the p99 but I doubt it.


I'd be interested in your thoughts between the two. Just remember that the main contributing factor to SQ when comparing sources is level matching. So try to use some type of measuring instrument to get things to a level playing field.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

gonna be incredibly hard to separate the psychoacoustic effect, too...

do it double blind.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Hey Jim, any comments or latest developments on the i-20 setup?


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Honestly, I've gotten wrapped up in a number of other life issues for the last little while, so I haven't taken the time to do much in the line of comparisons or that sort of thing. 

Overall, it sounds very good and I'm not concerned with it being the centerpiece to my system. It also functions fine in reasonably serious cold and humidity, and that it also works fine using a dock extension cable. It just quietly does what you want of it. I'm now using one dedicated audio ipod connected through the Pure using my new KUDA base and Dice portable dock, and my other ipod will travel with me and dock as needed to my Pioneer DVD for video, audiobooks, etc. as well as my most often listened to music. 

I've been a daily ipod user for about 4 years now - although mostly for books, so its very natural for me to control and navigate. Having the option to get high quality output from it certainly seems like a great alternative to carting around boxes of CDs or sorting through the very inane GUIs of most other systems to access files. I went from all WAV files to apple lossless and dropped about 50% of my storage space needs too.

As for video, well I still prefer the Sarotech for video since it handles many file types and handles hd output. Still, the video option isn't a bad one and it might rock for people with kids and back seat monitors, etc.

When the weather warms up, i get new tweeters installed and I feel the urge, I'll try for some a/b subjective comparisons if anyone cares, but I'd say it does what its says it will do - and that it will probably perform rather well in most in car environments. (I'm in MI but the car's garage kept except during the work day - in Alaska or ND, conditions could be harsh enough to cause troubles in mid-winter and my experiences couldn't adequately indicate that)

Happy to answer any specific questions, if I can.


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## Konnan101 (Sep 12, 2006)

This is pretty interesting to me. I have read just about everything you have posted less on the Sarotech device. I have a DRZ9255 that I do not want to replace, I love it, but I have been trying to ditch the cd's, and go all digital. The harddrive/media player option sounded appealing, but I don't really want to include a monitor in my car. Also controlling that system sounded more complicated than the iPod. This however, sounds like it might work for me. I understand I will still have to trick the drz into thinking it is playing a cd changer, but aside from that does this i-20 seem like the best option for integrating an iPod into a DRZ9255. Are you pleased so far, with SQ and its ability to maintain the iPods ease of control?


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## H2Ocaver (Dec 26, 2011)

yep, hope about some more feedback on the i-20-Do you still like it? Any problems?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Some details on the i-20 digital signal path. For the jitter weary.


""""---RESPONSE FROM PURE HELP CENTRE---
The i20 SPDIF signal is output from our DSP directly and then buffered with the clock as an edge reference through a differential high-speed logic gate and so is re-clocked / re-synchronised with the correct master timing clock to minimise jitter.

We have native 11.2896MHz and 12.288MHz oscillators to allow matching of SPDIF clocking to the reported audio data rate from iPod USB stream, so we correctly clock our DSP with a divisible clock reference oscillator and this same (One for 44.1 KHz data and one for 48 KHz data) oscillator is used for the re-clocking circuitry.

As I understand the iPod(s) can play 24bit audio files but with a maximum sample rate of 48 KHz hence the 24bit D/A, however we include a high quality 24bit D/A because its performance using 16bits of audio data (most source files) is very good and after a selection process this particular D/A converter minimises some other design challenges for us to achieve our target audio performance within tight cost constraints. 

With this D/A, we easily achieve >103dB SNR and >103dB XTALK with good THD+N performance using 16bit 44.1 KHz source material.

The purpose of the onboard D/A was to offer a significant improvement over the native analogue capabilities of the iPod and also to allow the i20 to stand fair comparison with other premium brand analogue docking products.""""

Pure i-20 iPod/iPhone Dock as a DAC


As a side note........

I just learned today that with special apps like flac player, you can load high resolution files (24bit/96kHz) onto say an iphone and play them threw the apps own media player. This of course will be down-sampled to 48kHz when using the analog out of the device, but I'm going to try and run some test and see if the pure dock will output 24bit/96kHz out its coax and or toslink connectors.

Judging from the link above, it does.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I did some research on this recently and found that the iphone/ipad/itouch will only do 16bit/48khz max digital out.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BigRed said:


> I did some research on this recently and found that the iphone/ipad/itouch will only do 16bit/48khz max digital out.



By this do you mean specifically the i-20 or in general for idevices?

Because according to the Flac player website, you can pull higher than that using the apple camera kit with an ipad. They don't confirm it themselves really, just advertise it and refer to a headfi thread on it (that I have not read).

FLAC Player - The Hammock District

"24-bit, 96kHz playback on iPad with USB DAC and Camera Connection Kit (see website)"

FLAC Player FAQs - The Hammock District

"Q: What about USB Audio Devices (via iPad Camera Connection Kit)?

FLAC Player does work with USB Audio devices on the iPad. This provides the best output quality available, and some users have confirmed true 96kHz, 24-bit playback on iPad using USB Audio devices under iOS 4.3. See further discussion in this thread at head-fi.org."


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

hhhmmm, 10 dollas for the player app needed to test the i-20's high resolution potential.........gonna have to think that one over a bit?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

everywhere i looked including 3rd party testers came to that conclusion. The thing that had me really wanting to figure it out is Mosconi was pitching a wifi device that would take an iphone or ipad audio signal and stream it to 24/196 thru this device.  the msrp was $1000. 

I would love to know the facts and I applaud Jim for going this direction. I am currently going Ipad2 to a driverack thru a HRT Dac. I'm also adding a DRZ so I can still compete with a cd


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

iPad Streams High-Resolution Audio to DAC1 | Benchmark Interaction

And throw in a CEntrance USB DAC with its car audio friendly super high quality regulated isolated power supply and you'll have the best fixed level analog out source unit you can find. For those that don't have digital inputs in the next device of course. Even has selectable isolated high quality spdif and analog inputs.

http://centrance.com/products/dacmini/i/dacmini_case_study.pdf

http://www.stereophile.com/content/centrance-dacmini-cx-da-converter-measurements


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I was ready to pull the trigger on one of these... till I found out that it does not work on the classic ipods.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

nevermind


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> nevermind


Oh come on man.... I hate it when people do that


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> Oh come on man.... I hate it when people do that


Naw I just misinterpreted "classic iPod" (ie you 5th gen) which like you said is not supported, for "iPod Classic" which is.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

good find nonetheless t3  thanks


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Naw I just misinterpreted "classic iPod" (ie you 5th gen) which like you said is not supported, for "iPod Classic" which is.


well..I have a classic, 6th gen. I gave it to the wife and she's used it like once. I'll re-investigate. I was under the impression that if it had a wheel it was no-go. AND IF it worked with the USB/photo adaptor, that would be even better, but I think that's pushing it.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> well..I have a classic, 6th gen. I gave it to the wife and she's used it like once. I'll re-investigate. I was under the impression that if it had a wheel it was no-go. AND IF it worked with the USB/photo adaptor, that would be even better, but I think that's pushing it.


this is where i went to look it up

iPod/iPhone/iPad Compatibility


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BigRed said:


> good find nonetheless t3  thanks


anytime

if you're interested in the camera ipad setup, this diy dac will be coming out in a few months

NwAvGuy: Objective Desktop Amp (ODA) & DAC

it will have a >18 bit ENOB (ie >111db of true dynamic range) and will be verified with extensive measurements showing its potential. no take my word for it or ear evaluations here. it will also use basic usb drivers for likely ipad compatibility through the cam dongle and will be bus powered. so all you'll need is a decent PS for the ipad side. oh and its only ~$130IIRC


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

less said:


> Most of you already know that the P99 isn't the be all and end all. Although its a wonderful unit for those it fits: its expensive, its single din, it doesn't do video, it requires using pioneer's gui and i don't think it works with ipads for starters.


It is expensive, yes.

But you can actually use the iPod's interface to control everything. You can switch between the Pioneer's interface and the iPod's anytime you wish.

This means you can also watch videos through your iPod.

And I thought the P99 was compatible with the iPad? Can someone confirm this?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

rain27 said:


> It is expensive, yes.
> 
> But you can actually use the iPod's interface to control everything. You can switch between the Pioneer's interface and the iPod's anytime you wish.
> 
> ...


it is


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## Sptsmed (Jan 20, 2010)

I am glad that I stumbled onto this thread as I have been piddling with these thoughts over the past month or so myself. I recently upgraded my BMW 750IL and they are beasts to work with stereo wise if you are trying to maintain OEM appearance yet have aftermarket sound.

I installed KEF KAR speakers 160Q's in the front doors, 130Q's in the rear doors, mounted a Oz Audio IB firing through the ski pass, installed two Zuki Eleets four channel amps in the trunk, Helix Pdsp in the boot and added a dice mediabridge so that I could maintain the factory nav. Well, still have not gotten the dice to work properly and just know that I am not going to get half of the benefit of the speakers, amps and processor I added using the factory radio module and dice anyway.

So, over the past few weeks I have been trying to McGuyver something that would allow aftermarket sound, Ipod compatability and keep the factory NAV and bluetooth features. 

Well, my original plans called for hacking out the cassette drive behind the widescreen MID in my dash and replacing it with a DVD/CD combo half din unit which would give me video and CD source fed through the radio module via the four wires from the old cassette deck. I pulled my MID and I am pretty sure that with some good dremel work and a bit of luck that I can fit a single din headunit behind the motorized screen. I picked up a Denon DCT 100 recently and am going to mount it there, send both RCAs and tosslink to the trunk, but plan on connecting the Tosslink to the Helix. I can then run a volume pot up and mount it in my ashtray where the cig lighter currently sits allowing me to control volume via the helix and not have to worry about the rotary knob on the Denon every time I want to change volume. I have a DEH P01 that is planned to go into my 3 series vert, and thought about trying it behind the MID, but I would then have two motorized functions and feared damage if the MID display tried to close while the faceplate was open on the Pioneer.

Then the Ipod comes into play, I have looked at the Ibasso DX100, which looks amazing, but at 830.00 is just not something I consider doable. Next was the CLAS unit, which is surely portable and looks very nice but is approaching 600.00. The pure sounds like a great solution price wise and lets me keep the numerous Ipod and Iphones that I have currently.

I am ordering a lumadock for the ashtray and getting it with USB pass through and if I have read up enough on the pure, I should be able to hide it in my glove box and connect it with the lumadock and still get the digital extraction. I have not figured out or seen the ability to power via DC, but it might be above and I just missed it.

So in the end I would have the Denon headunit to allow for CD use and radio, if I ever use it, an Ipod classic mounted in the lumadock attached to the pure via USB pass through cable and then fed into the Denon for mass storage ability.

I am keeping the radio module and NAV and just connecting it to the center front speaker so I maintain OB2 functionality, NAV and bluetooth all separate from the stereo build. Pain in the ass and complicated, but lets me have SQ sound as well as OEM look and function.

I would love to hear more on the Pure unit esp how you are connecting it to a 12 volt power source.


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## loopfreak (Aug 21, 2012)

Hi all, my first post here 

Nice build, and have a few info to add regarding volume when going digital trough the pure dock.

Ability to change volume on I pod classic and 3gs is the same as changing volume on the dock since they are synced. Any volume change will result in altered S/N ratio (and bit stream). In order to have full potential of the optical out "users" should double check their volume slider on "I something" devices when/after making a connection with the dock. 

I don't have this set up in my car but it's planned in the near future 


-loopfreak


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## jim1274 (Sep 28, 2012)

Is anyone loading DTS files on an ios device and feeding the i20 digital out to a DSP that decodes DTS? Since DTS files have a wav extension, the ipod or whatever would pass them correctly in digital format to something like an H800 and work, correct?


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Sptsmed said:


> I would love to hear more on the Pure unit esp how you are connecting it to a 12 volt power source.


I bought the power supply/converter the t3sn4f2 mentions in another thread somewhere dealing with the Pure. It works flawlessly - noiseless and easily stashed with nice and reasonably long extenstions. 

Hope that helps... I"m sure everyones looking for ways to integrate tablets these days but I"ve actually sputtered out of this for the last few months... everything sounds great and no compelling need to tinker anymore :laugh:

THAT is a change!
--
Jim


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## todd131 (Feb 25, 2012)

I think this is a solution for me thank you for posting. I think I like the Cambridge audio piece bikinipunk posted because it seems more durable. How is the i20 holding up in the automobile environment in the winter? Im sure pretty well. 

Anyways, I was wondering if I can send the digital signal from this unit directly to a bitone? Can I simply use the iPod extender cable and change songs with my iPod and still have volume control with my head unit?


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## Horuspeed (Dec 2, 2010)

Hello guys,

I recently purchase the pure i20 dock and the dc converter from powerstream.
Unfortunately both of them are really bulky and difficult to integrate for me (beginner). I would like to know if you got some photos of your current installation? I want to put them under the passenger seat of my golf VI. I could cut my floor mat to run the optical cable but I read they are delicate to work with. Do you have a proper brand or advice about the proper toughness of the cable? (Shielded, pvc braided and such). 

Thx for the help.


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## FSOL1 (Jan 13, 2013)

Hi all.
I have a question too. I bought Pure i-20 and Alpine PXA-H800. Now think нow to connect the power to i-20. Heard that possible to connect directly to a power line without any converters, say to the 12V cigarette lighter (dont know how on eng be that hole. Some people have do this and says-all normal. What do you think about such a connection?
And how to activate optical input on the processor? Dont want to buy and use RUX,just automatically adjust the sound with audissey (at least at the beginning). Can i activate Pure-Alpine optical connection with Mini-PC?
Thank you.


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

FSOL1 said:


> Hi all.
> I have a question too. I bought Pure i-20 and Alpine PXA-H800. Now think нow to connect the power to i-20. Heard that possible to connect directly to a power line without any converters, say to the 12V cigarette lighter (dont know how on eng be that hole. Some people have do this and says-all normal. What do you think about such a connection?
> And how to activate optical input on the processor? Dont want to buy and use RUX,just automatically adjust the sound with audissey (at least at the beginning). Can i activate Pure-Alpine optical connection with Mini-PC?
> Thank you.


Amazon.com: SMAKN Dc/dc Converter 12v Step Down to 7.5V/3A Power Supply Module: Electronics

This is all thats needed for the step down from 12v to 7.5.


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## Yawar538 (Aug 28, 2013)

Any more work outs with the i20 pure?
Planning to get one for my SoundMonitor CDA500x to play iPod/iPhone.

Any more reviews?


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

Starts on page 6 of the thread and goes a long way.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ery/137058-2009-smart-fortwo-reinstall-6.html


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## yogegoy (Feb 11, 2011)

Horuspeed said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> I recently purchase the pure i20 dock and the dc converter from powerstream.
> Unfortunately both of them are really bulky and difficult to integrate for me (beginner). I would like to know if you got some photos of your current installation? I want to put them under the passenger seat of my golf VI. I could cut my floor mat to run the optical cable but I read they are delicate to work with. Do you have a proper brand or advice about the proper toughness of the cable? (Shielded, pvc braided and such).
> ...


I had the same problem as to where to place my i20 without cutting or mangling the base unit until I found an extension cable for the dock which looks like this 








and found one cheaper in ebay.
Now I can place my iphone 3ft away from the dock without cutting the dock apart. Cost for cable is $5 shipped, now just to figure where it's going to be permanently hidden in my VW GTi.


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