# 2000 VW GTi build log



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Well, it's time to go ahead and post an official build log, so here goes!

Car:
Black 2000 VW Golf GTi 1.8t

Speakers:
Hybrid Audio L6 and L3
Tang Band 1" Ceramic dome tweeter
Dayton 12" HO subwoofer

Amplification:
Genesis Profile 4
Genesis Profile 4 Ultra

Source:
Alpine IVA-W205
I-pod interface cable
Alpine TUA-T550 HD Radio interface
Alpine P-1 Navigation
Alpine PXA-H701 Processor
Alpine RUX-C701 Controller (only for tuning)

Wiring:
KnuKoncepts speaker wire
KnuKoncepts power wire
KnuKoncepts distribution and fuse blocks
Mogami DIY interconnects

Deadening:
3 rolls RAAMmat BXT
1/2" and 1/4" closed cell foam in doors, cavities, and roof
Quiet Batt in cavities

System Diagram:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

First up was the install of the headunit. VW's double din opening is, of course, not double din sized. A considerable amount of work was required to get the W205 in and properly mounted. It was important to me that the face be flush mounted as closely as possible. I dislike the bulky trim rings that come with these darned things. There is less than 1/2" depth behind the majority of the headunit. Thankfully there is JUST enough space for the wiring and optical cable. 

Work then began on the backfill and smoothing of the overly large opening. Once it was all filled in and smoothed out, it was painted with a soft touch pain to match the factory rubberized texture. The factory cupholder pops out of the panel just above the head unit, and it remains functional for now. I plan to replace it with a SLOT LOAD iPod dock that I have been working on. Imagine a slot load CD player but with an iPod Classic in place of the CD and you've got the idea. Implementation on that will have to wait. 

Sorry for the overly dark picture.

Result:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Next up was beginning to sound deaden the car. RAAMat BXT and closed cell foam will handle the first phases of that task:

Area behind the front doors. You'll see these again later in the install as the final location for the system processor and HD Radio Rx.

Raw from the factory:









RAAMmat-ed:









and here's the foam I went with:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Front doors got the same treatment.

RAMMat-ed:









Foamed:









Then the inner door skin, both sides (where I could avoid the window mechanism):


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Result!

video:


This process continued until both doors, both rear panels, both rear quarter panels, and the spare tire/trunk area/hatch were done. So far the carpet hasn't come up so the floorboards are untouched.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Next up on the list was the kickpanels. A complete build thread is here but here is the finished pair all covered and ready for their new homes:









And a mockup of the grille:









Waiting on an order from Mcmaster-carr to finish the final grille. It should look much less hokey


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## Toys7505 (Jul 1, 2008)

Looks good so far... I didn't realize the P1 nav works with the W205?!?! In order to hear the nav voice, you will need the KCE-900E interface.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I thought the whole point of a 205 was that you could add a P1...(well, maybe not the *whole* point)...of course the P1 has been recalled a couple times and overall is a piece of crap, but hey.

Jay


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## spag_bace (Aug 24, 2006)

do you feel the foams in the door helped out a lot with vibrations?


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## Toys7505 (Jul 1, 2008)

JayinMI said:


> I thought the whole point of a 205 was that you could add a P1...(well, maybe not the *whole* point)...of course the P1 has been recalled a couple times and overall is a piece of crap, but hey.
> 
> Jay


Only the W203 & W505 will accept the P1 into it's docking slot in the HU. To make the P1 work w/ your W205, you will need Alpine's PMD-DOK2 (external docking station). Pulled the info. right from Alpine's website.......


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Alpine lies, is misinformed, or has simply failed to realize the compatibility of their own products. I've been running the P1 V2.0 in the w205 for a couple of months. It may be that earlier versions of the P1 had issues with the w205, but not the V2.0 unit. 

When the input is selected as Blackbird, the navigation voice operates normally. I have noticed, however, that when the selected input is HD Radio, the P1 will attenuate the music properly but no voice is heard. I have not looked into that problem yet, but suspect it is a Navi-Mix setting that I have overlooked. I also have not verified that other inputs (iPod, CD, DVD, Aux) suffer from the voice problem. Either way, I tend not to use that function of the P1 and instead just use the visual indicators while driving. I find the vocals... leave something to be desired as a matter of personal preference.

When the system is back online I may look into it more thoroughly, but as it stands I am pleased with the resultant functionality for the <$200 I paid for the P1. It locates the address easily, reroutes quickly when I choose to follow a different path, and provides the requested information without annoying me. It also bluetooth syncs with my cell phone without issue (Motorola ROKR U9). 

It wasn't until after I had been using the P1 for some time that I saw Alpine's note of caution when using the P1 with the w205, and I do not know the reason for it. AFAICT it works very well as a combination.

I hope that clears up any confusion when using the P1 with the 205. I'd be happy to check on any specific question anyone might have with the combination!

-Todd

Now, on with the build updates!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

spag_bace said:


> do you feel the foams in the door helped out a lot with vibrations?


To provide some perspective to my longwinded answers to simple questions, I am a technical instructor with the FAA. As a result, I tend to attempt to answer questions as clearly as I can. Given what I do, the difference between clarity and ambiguity is important. The simple answer is "yes", but that doesn't tell you how or why. I'll do my best to instead provide you as much of how and why as possible, as I think that does more to help you make an educated choice of your own. 

SO: Does it help with vibrations? I feel that the foam as I have used it does provide a marked improvement in the way the doors react to the midbass, and I would definitely add the foam were I to have to do this again. I think the sound of the rap test video above illustrates the point well.
For this explanation I am going to use the terms attack to mean the initial sound (the striker hitting the bell body, for instance) and decay (the sound the bell makes after the strike has completed). The untreated panel has a metallic tin-can sound like a metal garbage can. Rapping on the untreated sheetmetal causes a sharp attack with a relatively long resonant decay. You can almost hear the sound 'bouncing around' inside the enclosure. Adding the mass loading, in this case a couple of layers of RAAMmat, helped to soften the attack and somewhat reduce the length of the decay. The initial sound was muted with less of a high frequency component, and seemed to bounce around less. Additionally adding the foam did not significantly impact the attack sound, but definitely reduced the length of the decay even further. The inital rap of the door produces the same initial sound, but bounces around much less. Think of the difference between an empty room with hardwood floors (almost harsh sounding when you speak, with lots of reflection) and the same room with carpet and big fluffy furniture. The panel, once put into resonant motion, comes to a stop more quickly with fewer echoes reflected around.
When playing music, this results in tighter, more detailed notes from the midbass. I also feel that reducing the coverage of hard, sharp surfaces inside the "cabinet" has helped reduce reflections behind the cone to some degree, but I have not measured it so the effect may simply be wishful thinking. Based on the above carpeted-room analogy, though, it would be easy to understand WHY that would be. I feel that adding a final layer of LESS DENSE foam would further improve the enclosure, but do not know if it would further improve the resultant midbass output significantly. That and my doors are "wet" (designed to allow water to flow through them), and that adds problems with open-cell (less dense) foams. I'll let you know when I learn more!

-Todd

Long-winded, but I hope that answers your question sufficiently. More on the midbass in a moment!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

For me, building a car is an iterative process. I've known people who decide where things are going before the build even starts. I try a LOT of things before settling on a final setup. I like to hear the difference and know that I am choosing the best spot based on my design constraints. This means that I need the system online and functional for testing, and that process usually lasts a WHILE. To facilitate that in my daily driver, I built a temporary amp/electronics rack for all the gear so that I could drive with it when needed and so that I didn't have to set up and tear down the entire system anytime I wanted to test it. 
Here's what I came up with:










A simple, safe setup that pressure-fits into the spare tire well. It's all covered up so I don't have to worry about everyone seeing the gear when I park somewhere, and it's electrically safe. The power and ground wires were already run when I got the car, so I am using them as-is for now. There is a lot of extra wire so that I can pull the module out and set it on a bench next to the car, and I will trim everything to length when things make it to their final locations. 

At this point it was time to start testing speaker locations. This was done before the kickpanels were made, of course, as I tried every possible location for the midrange and midbass. The midbases have been mounted now 4 different times; once in the kick panel area, in the well in the rear passenger compartments, and twice in the doors. Midranges have been in the door, in the kick, in the sail panel, and in the A-pillar. 









I settled with the midrange in the kick and the midbass in the door, but I did so knowing what each of the other locations brought to the table for imaging, staging, locatability, and tonality. 

Once I decided on the final location of each driver, I got to work on the kickpanels as they were the most involved enclosure. By now you've seen the result of that adventure.

The midbass was originally mounted directly to the inner door skin in place of the factory speaker. This was facilitated by using riv-nuts in place of the rivets that held the factory speaker in. I love rivnuts. 










In this location they sounded "big" and boomy, and it didn't take long to realize the problem. The midbass was exciting the inner door panel sitting in front of it. Not just the grille, but the entire panel, became the speaker. To combat this problem I would need to tie the inner door panel to the inner door skin, and mount the midbass on the outside of the door. Or I would need to build a complete lower door enclosure. In the interim, I decided on the former. Unfortunately in their wisdom, VW decided to fire the door speaker slightly forward and up. That means the speaker mounting surface on the door skin is not parallel to the inner door panel! The two openings are also not on the same center! Grr. That means I would need to build a tube that was squashed ~15 degrees and and offcenter ~1/2" that also tapered from a 5+" hole to a 6+" hole. Never easy.
The result:









I thought I took a picture of the adapter, but I guess I didn't. It's basically 3 heavily mangled, glued, fiberglassed, and bolted MDF rings. Now that I have working measurements it will be reproduced from a hunk of aluminum. "Now" being a relative term meaning "in the eventual future...", lol.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow, what a difference. 
It was clear that the midbass was turning the inner door panel into a passive radiator in spite of the fact that it was covered in a few layers of RAAMat, but until I changed things I had no idea how much. Initial impressions were that all the bass was gone from the front stage. It would turn out to be more accurate to say that all the boom was gone. The drivers were now playing the note instead of the DOOR PANEL re-playing the note. After a little listening and some gain adjustments, it was clear that there was a MASSIVE improvement in accuracy. Very tight. 
Turning up the volume, however, reveals that there is a ton of cone motion..approaching the limits of the suspension... well before we reach maximum power. I'm only driving 125 watts into these guys, and I know they are designed to happily take that and more, but the driver is acting like the enclosure is too big. I am thinking the next step will be to go aperiodic in this configuration. The membrane will supply some resistance and should help turn the air behind the driver into a spring that helps dampen the relatively soft suspension of the L6. I feel confident that this will reduce cone movement and regain some control of the suspension at high volume levels. I have a WT-3, so tuning should be relatively straightforward. Fitting a rear cap to the adapter chamber will be interesting, though, and that will need to be put off for a little while. Grilles for the L6's are on hold waiting for that order from Master-Carr anyway, so on with the show.

Next up is popping a mold of the spare tire well, and for that the electronics have to come out. Instead of taping things up as is the norm, I prefer to lay in some Visqueen (thick plastic tarp material). It releases from the fiberglass much better and doesn't leave the sticky residue of tape. On the other hand, care must be taken to dart the plastic so if forms tightly to the tire well. A little 3M 77 spray adhesive helps to keep it in place. 



















I'll give that a few days in place before I pop it out and continue the build-up.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

While that is working itself out, it is time to begin looking into installing the amps and other electronics in their permanent locations. The PLAN, from before I even owned the car, was to put the amps in a coffin in the hatch roof area. I've designed and built a motorized amp rack for this purpose based on a pair of ACME threaded leadscrews and a hidden mechanism that rotates the amps out of the coffin and displays them to the open hatch area, but it is not quite done yet and has some engineering work left to be done. It's at proof-of-concept stage, but I know its rough dimensions. Now I have to build a rigid framing system to mount it securely to the roof, underneath the headliner. I want to be able to hang my 175 lbs off of it without fear. Using 1 1/2" steel angle iron, steel rivnuts, and a lot of patience, I laid out dead-center on the roof and went to work. 
From the factory:









Since I am not installing the automation system at this phase of the build, all I need to do is get the amps in place and give the mounting system enough room so as to accept the automation unit later. The amps were tied together and mounted to a 1/2" piece of MDF with T-nuts. 1" aluminum angle iron was placed and drilled, and the holes tapped in the steel angle iron. Up it went!

Front to back:









Back to front:









The angle iron is attached directly to the roll cage of the car, and it is very rigid. The 1/2" MDF that the amps are on now will be replaced with a hunk of 1/2" aluminum (on the way) to aid in cooling and rigidity, and ducting will be installed to direct the output of 4 120mm fans (to be installed in the C-pillars) through the amps. The fans will be thermostatically controlled with one of these, mounted in the driver's side rear quarter panel or in the sub box in the floor. Not certain yet.









The 5th fan is reserved for the 701...


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Ah, yes. The 701. I've got some goodies up my sleeve there, but that will have to wait for later. For now I need to find it and the T550HD a home. I want to be certain to keep all low level signals as far as possible from power and speaker-level stuff as I can, and I do not want to take up interior space where it isn't necessary. I'd also prefer to keep it away from the sub for noise and vibration concerns. Just so happens that the GTi has those cavernous spaces behind the armrests for the rear passengers. 
Perfect!









The power wire you see there will be run on the other side of the car soon. 

Here you see the factory rear speaker panel has been removed, covered with RAAMat on both sides, and sealed with foil tape. A piece of 1/2" MDF was cut and mounted to the panel with T-nuts. The 701 gets the inside space, and the T550HD the outside space, all mounted with T-nuts countersunk in the MDF. Plenty of space for wire management and there is access to the area without removing any screws and only one body panel. 5 minutes in and out. Limited instant access could be designed into the armrest if desired so judges can put a finger on it if necessary. It gets the 5th fan of the above controller.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Just checked and it looks like the McMaster-Carr order is scheduled to arrive on Friday. Perfect timing, as I will need some contents of that order to put the Mogami RCA's together this weekend! Speaking of wiring, it's time to get that front stage wired up. First of all, I wanted to harness and connectorize the entire system. Each driver needs to be soldered into the harness, but each driver should also be removable without soldering. I found some great gold bullet connectors that are easy to deal with, are polarized, gendered, and handle 80A each. Orders of magnitude more than they will be tasked with in their intended use. The door subharness will be responsible for the midbass and tweeter, so I got it together:









The door harness will be removable as a unit, and both drivers attached to the harness will be removable via the connectors.

The tweeter and it's subharness:









And the Midrange:









Waiting on the clear shrinkwrap to label them, but every connector will be labeled.

Techflex: All speaker level cabling will be done in black with the white tracers. Power in red, and line level in blue. Misc. wiring (AI-Net, etc.) will be done in black.









Lookin' good!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Random teaser post.









The kicks will be color matched, of course, and the grilles are yet to be completed, but I think things are coming along brilliantly so far! 

That's where things stand today. The plan tonight is to mount power distribution blocks next to the amps, and to get the speaker wires sorted and in place temporarily. I'll need to decide on a wire routing scheme for the amplifier area, but the plan is to run the speaker wires up the A-pillars and through the roof channels. Power will come up the passenger side sill area, AI-net and optical will route along the Driver's side sill area to the 701, and line level signals from the 701 will route up the Driver's C-pillar. That will prevent power, speaker, and low level signals from running parallel and in proximity with each other anywhere in the vehicle. I will make every attempt for these wires to cross at 90 degrees near the amp. We'll see how that works out!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

And, of course, critical comments are very much appreciated. If you see something going seriously wrong, or know from experience that the judges go nuts over X or frown upon Y, PLEASE let me know. I'd rather correct serious mistakes early in the process if I can help it! 
Thanks!!!
-Todd


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

LOVE THE KICKS!!!! How much weight did you add to the hatch by putting the rack on it?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

amps in the roof put you in extreme class. Welcome


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> amps in the roof put you in extreme class. Welcome



Say WHAT?!!

oh *CRAP!*

<grabs rulebook and frantically flips through...>


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Yeah, I don't get it. 

Why on EARTH would mounting the amps in the headliner of the non-seated area of the passenger compartment put me in the Extreme class? No metal was cut and the area would be returned back to stock with the replacement of only the headliner. Four holes were drilled, nutserts installed, and that is it. 

I consider being placed in the Extreme class to be a serious detriment given that the front stage did not alter any of the vehicle. The front midbasses in the doors were even done so that the original grille could be replaced and no holes would show (to return it to stock). All to keep me in the Modified class....and out of even ModEx.

If this is verifiably the case I will definitely need to rethink the placement of the amps. I don't think I would stand a snowball's chance in that class.
Is there someone in MECA that I could call to verify this before I continue?
<panic ensues>

Along those lines, if I modify the internals of an H701 or the Genesis amps, does this constitute a change in class? Replacing capacitors and OpAmps?

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

OK, so far everyone seems to be leaning in the direction that this does not constitute a reason for a class change, and things SHOULD be good to go for the Modified class, as intended. Here's an updated image of the mounting rails that hold the amps in place. This picture is taken from the front of the car looking to the rear on the passenger side of the mount. 









As you can see, the frame rail (above which is the roof skin) is modified only by drilling 4 holes in it so the bots may attach. Nothing penetrates the roof, and there are no holes cut in the car besides drilling the four small holes in the frame rail. AFAICT, that is perfectly acceptable.

Here's a wider angle image of the driver side for reference.









OK, on with the show!


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## cannan (Jan 19, 2010)

Really nice build. I love the kick pods.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

as I emailed you earlier. I am basing my comments on the fact that there was a guy basically forced into Extreme Class bc he had amps mounted in the ceiling. Granted, he had an extended cab truck and amps were directly above him.
Maybe since the amps are not in the main passenger area, that will change things.
Good Luck reaching anyone to clarify rules this weekend--its spring break Nationals, so everyone is in daytona preparing.
If you keep the current install, just be prepared to explain things again and again if there is a ruling that allows you to stay in modified. So probably documentation and pictures will be needed at every show you attend.

on a side note--you do great work, I definitely donot think youd get anything haded to you in extreme class. With some good tweaking and tuning, based on what I have seen with your install- i think youd be very competitive.

mod'ing internals does not change classes in MECA that I am aware of.


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## glidn (Apr 21, 2007)

I like the whole install bar the tweeter pods and the amps mounted to the roof.

Everything else I really like.

I have done my fair share of mk4 golf installs. But The choice of front stage and installation is 99% of what I wanted to do. 
I would have recommended installing the 6" mid behind the grill with similar system to the factory where is basically horn loads and force music into the cabin, Which would have worked about 98% as well as your current install.

I do take my hat off to you. Even thou I dont like parts of the install. Does not mean I'm one bit unimpressed. I know it's hard work making so many things fit in a 3dr Golf.

I did go out pretty much as crazy as you for the SD in the front doors, But did 2 layers of SD in the doors, and single layer on either side of the door panel insert for the window regulators.

I would however have expected the A pillars used, even thou I know many a competition where the MK4 won by re-angling the factory tweeter location.

Keep up the good work.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

glidn said:


> I like the whole install bar the tweeter pods


Well, as of yet there ARE no tweeter pods. Those white things in the sail area are a mockup of one possible location that I tried for the L3. I went with the kick instead. 

The tweeter drivers are only roughly "in location" in the sail panels so far. I have tried them in the pillars, but found that moving them back out to the sail panels widened the stage immensely due, I assume, to reduced reflections off the dash. These drivers are extremely flat off axis and extend happily out into 30K. That wide, flat pattern makes them a little difficult to control in a car. I actually find that with the driver half-hidden in the top of the door card the way they are now, they become much more directional and controllable. I am very much considering covering the lower half of the driver in acoustical foam in the final install for this reason. It seems to reduce reflection off of everything below that point on the driver. This very well may not be the case with other drivers, but for this one it seems to be. I know it's bad mojo to talk about partially covering a driver like that, however I am basing these observations not on aesthetics but on what I hear. We'll see what the future brings!

I'll post pics of the finished tweeter location when I get there.



glidn said:


> I would have recommended installing the 6" mid behind the grill with similar system to the factory where is basically horn loads and force music into the cabin, Which would have worked about 98% as well as your current install.


I really tried to keep the driver behind the grille, but it just wasn't going to happen. The L6 is actually a 7" frame driver, and with the offsets that they used between the grille opening and the mid-door it makes things more difficult than they should be. I wasn't thrilled with the idea of horn loading the midbass either, and the added benefit of tying the door panel into the door frame in a rigid fashion made such a HUGE difference that I wouldn't change it. If anything I would pull the driver back juuust enough to put the frame behind the doorskin, but I would still make an outer grill in place of the factory cheese-plastic part. I think you will like the look once it's done with the grille in place, and I sure like the sound!

Thanks, by the way, for the kudos on the build. I am really trying hard to do the car and the equipment justice!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> as I emailed you earlier. I am basing my comments on the fact that there was a guy basically forced into Extreme Class bc he had amps mounted in the ceiling. Granted, he had an extended cab truck and amps were directly above him.
> Maybe since the amps are not in the main passenger area, that will change things.
> Good Luck reaching anyone to clarify rules this weekend--its spring break Nationals, so everyone is in daytona preparing.
> If you keep the current install, just be prepared to explain things again and again if there is a ruling that allows you to stay in modified. So probably documentation and pictures will be needed at every show you attend.
> ...


Thanks so much for your comments and help on all of that. As I mentioned in my email, everyone I *have* managed to contact has indicated that there should be no major issue with having them up there. 

As far as having the amps in the roof is concerned... a LARGE part of my design intent is based on the creative use of dead space. I'm not a big fan of systems that overtake the vehicle, especially in my daily driver. Witness the extremely low profile of the kick panels whose outer dimensions are within an inch of the factory part yet still provide the airspace needed for the L3 and the aiming necessary to get an image locked in. I see that space back there as useless space, and that makes it very appealing to me from a design perspective. From a security standpoint, unless you are shown where they live, you'd never know. All plusses to me, though I understand how it is a departure from the norm to some. Norm and I never really got along anyway 

I plan a very thorough install book to clearly indicate every aspect of the build, and the headliner's intended design will allow me to show off the mounting system to a judge if required and provide access to the fuses and gains. I am reasonably confident that it will be ok, and if I get pushed into ModEx I wouldn't complain too loudly. It's Extreme that had me worried!

Well, two weeks left to the first show, and a loooot to be done. I see some long nights in my near future! The plan is to aim for SQ-only and hold install judging off for the following show. We'll see how close to done it gets.

Thanks again to everyone on their positive comments on the install. This is my fifth or sixth install ever, and it's been a personal challenge to exceed my own expectations and push my comfort zone. There are many firsts for me with this car, and I really appreciate the support!


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## glidn (Apr 21, 2007)

fair enough about the pods, sorry looked to small to be the L3's.
but what you can try is put some acoustic foam on the bottom panels of the dash, that will help alot. Otherwise go for a suede like dash wrap is about the only other Idea I can come with right now.


Yeah I know what you mean by the L6 having a 7" basket. You o know they mk4/beetle have a off the shelf factory 8" upgrade? so I do know they will fit with out any drama's.
But I do understand where you are coming from in relation to mounting the mids. But again Keep up the install man, It's creative and most of it looks awesome. So you should be proud.


Yeah If you search for on the forum, for some of my build logs you will see I posted up a n R32 build log that I did for a friend. But his requirements where completely different to your end goal.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Saturday: Wiring!

Mogami 4-channel snakes:








































Power are red and black, blue is low level RCA and speakers are black with white tracers. Took a lunch break and thought I'd update. Far from done, but I like the way it is turning out so far. Oh, and every end of nearly every wire is labeled with pertinent information and clear heat-shrinked. I swear I have like 5 lbs of just heatshrink in this!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow, it's been a busy week. I managed to get the tweeter pods fleshed out and the tweeters mounted, and then spent 4 days busting my butt on the sub enclosure. NOTHING in this car is square or straight, and the spare tire well is set offcenter. I ended up chalklining the centerline of the car (which is not the "middle" of the trunk, either...) and laying everything out from there. I used the full tub which is ~2.3 cubic feet and I will tune the port by enclosure volume using the WT3. 
Here's the box out of the car. The port is 28.23" x7" x1.25" folded into the rear of the enclosure and box size will be reduced to 1.5 cubic feet, tuned to 28 Hz. The port folded into a 7"x7.5"x11" box that sits just to the rear of the sub. I guesstimate the current volume minus port and basket to be about 1.84 cubic feet putting the vent tuning at ~25 Hz.



















The boxtop to false floor is 3 layers of 3/4" MDF. In order to transfer the layout and location of features up through the design I ended up dowel-pinning the layers so alignment on reassembly is assured. When taken apart it will line up the same way EVERY time. 

Initial listening impressions are very good. Very smooth and it blends very well with the midbass cut off around 63Hz at 18db/octave. I'll measure to decide the final crossover frequency.

I need to get carpet and other supplies, but at least I know I will have the car together enough to get judged for SQ come this weekend. It's far from done, but at least it will give me an idea of where it stands sound-wise. I was worried that I wasn't going to make it...!

Better pictures to come as soon as I get more time!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

The build looks awesome!!! Did you decide to keep the amps mounted to the roof?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Yup, they are staying. Hole's already been sliced out of the headliner, so I'm committed at this point!

Much more's been done, but no photo proof at the moment. Soon, though! It's together enough at this point that I was able to show it off to some work friends. Hotel California caused more than one person to jump when sounds came from impossible places. There's a track on chesky #3 where they walk around the mic while pounding a tom. I didn't know you could get a phantom REAR channel from a stereo pair, and it astounded everyone that heard it. You can close your eyes and track that tom all the way around you. 

I'd talk more about it, but I just don't know what to say other than it's WAY outside of what I thought I could do. I'll need more tutored ears than mine to believe it's as good as it sounds to ME, and it isn't even 'tuned' yet.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Well, it's been a while since I updated the build log because I have been working my A3 off. Things have been just nuts lately. I am working nights (from 330PM to midnight), getting to bed around 1, sleeping till 6, working from 630 to 2 on the car, getting cleaned up and heading to work. Here's where we are now:
Much work on the amp rack:









And its trim cover:









Once that was in place, off to the headliner!
Cut a really big hole in a very expensive part, then rough it in!










Glass that S4 in!









Smooth it out and backfill any unhappy curves with foam, glass that in, smooth it out some more, continue. No body filler here.

Then a layer of 1/8" closed cell foam goes in and gets feathered out.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

From there the whole thing gets a layer of 1/8" closed cell foam. The real fun starts here!


















Test fit the trim ring on the trimmed headliner:









Now the real fun. Ultrasuede. Doesn't stretch. Doesn't shrink. Weighs a ton.
Clear out a BIG work area, grab the spray gun, and get it all good and tacky with rubber cement.









the last picture was taken at 7AM. Here's where I got to by 2 PM.









More to come!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

It turned out really good, but those rear Oh S4! handle pockets kicked my A3. There was NO way to get them done without wrinkling. I should have just cut the fabric and seamed it back up; I ended up doing that at the very front of the headliner and it turned out GREAT. No matter, I have some PLANS that will take care of the wrinkled area and really spice it up. More on that later 
All in all, for my first headliner rebuild and second ever recover, it's pretty darned good. Most important, it is flawless where it counts!


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Still, mad props! Can't wait to see the rest.


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

I gotta give it to you man you do AWESOME work, Super clean and I LOVE the fact that you try and make use out of otherwise dead space as opposed to filling up crucial area of the car


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Thank you SO much. I intended this build to be a challenge, but the level of difficulty I've taken on is way, WAY more than I thought I was biting off. Nevertheless, I do my best work under pressure, and this is head and shoulders better than anything I've done previously. One of the themes of this build for me was the use of dead space, and it has proven to be quite the challenge. So far so good, and MUCH more to come. It's just starting to get good


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## vrdublu (Apr 13, 2009)

Great job so far, I wait impatiently to see what's next. My plans were originally big as well, not as big as yours but big enough, instead I hurried and regret now is setting in. No matter, summer is almost here and you have inspired me, thx for that and GL with the rest of the build.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for the compliments! At this point I need all the help I can get keeping the momentum up. I was planning to hit a show tomorrow morning, but I've had to call it off. I get out of work at midnight, don't get to sleep until 1:30 or so in the morning, and the show is 4.5 hours away and signup is at 9am. You can see there is a bit of a sleep deficit in that math...

As a teaser on the build, I'll be starting on the carbon fiber work with a gorgeous 2K twill weave blue/black cloth hopefully next week. THAT should be fun!

Soon!
-Todd


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Nice and methodical install. Several years ago in a MaxPower mag I saw a MkII with roof mounted amps... and now another golf. Cool!


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## honza440 (Aug 22, 2009)

situation of amps is little bit unusual - I like it, good job!


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## ALL4SPL (Sep 30, 2009)

Another GTI install, wtb more of these posted!


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## MaXaZoR (Apr 1, 2007)

Where did you get the speaker harnesses at?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Sorry for the delayed reply; for whatever reason I didn't get an email when you posted. 
To answer your question, everything is made. The harnesses are speaker wire, connectors, techflex, and a ton of heat shrink. Everything is handmade just like the RCA cables at the top of this page!

Hope that helps, but if you still have questions just let me know and I'll do my best!

-T


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## helosquid (Jan 7, 2008)

Updated pics? I would love to see how this thing turned out!


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## adrianp89 (Oct 14, 2007)

Where did you get the speaker connectors?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Sorry that I haven't managed to get any new pics posted in awhile. I've been waiting on parts in the hope of only doing things once, but that hasn't happened. When I purchased the car the sunroof wasn't quite doing its thing and I managed to get it 90% sorted out, but there are a couple of small plastic parts that didn't survive. I located a replacement sunroof assembly, but am still waiting for it to get pulled and shipped. I held off installing the headliner and trim for awhile in the hopes that it would get here, but had to resign myself to pulling it all again at a later date once the sunroof arrives.

Once the headliner was up it was clear that the compression that I had planned for created too much pressure on the amp cover and its mounting system for comfort. I ended up pulling the amp rack back out and replacing the MDF that goes around the amp (in the above pics) with something a little stronger; a welded 1x1" steel frame with RivNut inserts now does the job of mounting the amp cover/trim assembly. It's overkill, but it was the easiest way to solve the problem with materials on hand. Once that was all sorted out I installed the headliner, pillar parts, and bolted the trim parts in place. It looks great and is very smooth and stealth. I still need to decide on the finish for the plexiglass as I wanted to smoke it out a bit so you can juuust see the amps behind the cover. I'll try to have pictures up soon.

I have a show this weekend, then plan to start in on the carbon fiber work on the doors and trim. All four armrests are coming out of the door assemblies and being redone in a twill weave blue and black carbon fiber/epoxy layup. That will take some time but I think it will be worth it and it will help add interest to the black on black on black interior. I'll also be making carbon pockets for the handles in the headliner and finishing the handles and sunvisors in the suede with baseball stitching (like a steering wheel would be done). Time-consuming detail work to be certain.

The connectors are XT60 bullet connectors. You should be able to find them on fleabay for about 12 bucks for ten pairs shipped from China. If you decide to go that route, solder them with care and make certain that you have a male and female plugged in to each other as you solder. The increased metal area helps dissipate the heat from soldering and prevents you from melting the contact out of the plastic housing as easily. If you are slow in the process you WILL ruin connectors, so use just enough heat to get the job done ,pre-tin everything, and use a good flux. Good luck and take your time. The connectors are inexpensive, so order more than you need to allow yourself room for error.

-T


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## mitchjr (Mar 8, 2010)

Subscribe


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I've only got a little time to post, so I hope the pictures tell most of the story!

First, the new welded amp rack:




























And the trim plate:
The final part will be smoked like what you see here. I wasn't content with the look of the film I used and will be redoing it, so the film came off. Here's a preview, however:










And the Genesis oval for the trim plate:









It's a distressed metallic gunmetal with 5,000 layers of clear. OK, maybe not 5,000 layers but a lot of clear. 

And finally, a pic of it all in!










Still a ton of little things to do, but it is definitely coming along.
OK, gotta run. Show this evening and it's 4 hours away, so I've gotta get ready to get driving. Wish me luck!

-Todd


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Good luck Todd!!! Let us know how you do.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

best of luck at the show, and great work!!!!!!!!! looks shmik!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I think imma gonna go with "It was a good show..."










First place Modified SQ
First place SQ Install
SQ Best of Show
PHAT install
Most Improved

SQ score was a 73.5 
Word is that the judge (I think his name is Jeremy. I suck at names. I will ask Tony Goza, event sponsor, what the judge's name is again so I can get it right.) is one tough scorer. His feedback has dramatically improved the car and as a result I am learning to listen more critically. I am very pleased with the presentation and staging, but feel I need to work on midbass punch and impact next. The stage pulls a little left with low vocal ranges or the low notes on the flute and I think that will require acoustical treatment to remedy. I consistently score 3-3.5 of 5 in linearity, and I don't know what to do about that. In placement scores I am 2.5 & 3 of 3, and the judge mentioned specifically that he has never given a 3 on left and right of center placement until now. I am very proud of the staging in the car, and am pleased that he liked it as much as I do!

Oh, and most importantly, I had a great time showing the car, meeting everyone at the show, and learning more about this hobby! 

Yeah, it was a good show.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Way to go!!


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## mobeious (Jan 26, 2007)

awsome keep up the good work


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## bigguy (Apr 13, 2010)

THis looks great man. congrats on the show


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Wow! Good job.

Jay


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

congrats and yes judges feedback is good, but even better when the judge is honest and constructive. sometimes we need that 3rd party reality check.


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## glidn (Apr 21, 2007)

Congrats, You hard work paid off well. Keep it up.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Since it's getting to be about time to pull the door panels to redo the armrest inserts in carbon, I decided to test out the new cloth and resin as I had never used them before. Wanted to see what adhesion of the crystal clear resin was like, and see how it takes to sanding and buffing. Some resins don't sand well without a wax additive in the topcoat so I made up a small test part. Also wanted to see how vibrant of the blue fibers were going to be once wet out. Here's a pic of the test part in the sunlight:










I'm digging the royal blue in there. I wasn't sure I was going to like it based on the color of the dry fabric, but this is just about perfect.
It's just a corner scrap whose fibers were pulled a bit so the weave is not as tight as it should be, but I wasn't going to cut into the roll to get a clean sample for a test layup. This stuff is not cheap.
Resin is polyester as it's so easy to work with and the cf is only cosmetic. If it were a structural part or I was planning on infusion bagging it I'd have used epoxy, but the poly stands up better to sunlight in cosmetic parts. I think this is going to work out just fine.

-Todd


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## Afronaut (Apr 27, 2010)

Congrats on ur wins and the cloth looks good


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## trevordj (Feb 22, 2009)

highly said:


> Since it's getting to be about time to pull the door panels to redo the armrest inserts in carbon, I decided to test out the new cloth and resin as I had never used them before. Wanted to see what adhesion of the crystal clear resin was like, and see how it takes to sanding and buffing. Some resins don't sand well without a wax additive in the topcoat so I made up a small test part. Also wanted to see how vibrant of the blue fibers were going to be once wet out. Here's a pic of the test part in the sunlight:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have REALLY enjoyed watching the progress of your build. Which brand of resin are you using? I am using US Composites surf board resin for my recently started overlay. I have found it to be very sandable and generally easy to work with. I can't wait to see the progress!


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

highly said:


> Front doors got the same treatment.
> 
> RAMMat-ed:


I'm so jealous that you VW owners can just unscrew the entire inner door skin for just this purpose.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

It's nice that it comes off, I agree, but actually removing it is a half-day adventure! Not only that but the window track mechanism is basically a part of the inner door panel, so you have to tape the glass up and disconnect it from the panel, and once it's out you can't really deaden the inside part of the panel for fear of gumming up the mechanism. Tell ya who really has it good... the Saturn owners. The *outside* door skin comes off! 

The grass IS always greener....
-Todd


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## John Reid (Jun 6, 2008)

MKV also allows for the outer door skin to come off... 

Build's looking good, man. Nice to see progress beyond the pods you posted at HAT.

I'm going to take a week off next month to actually get some work done on my '09 Jetta Sportwagen. Time to cram 2 15's into the rear cargo side walls.

VW's are a PITA to take apart, though, that's for sure.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the Kudos! Greatly appreciated as it can be tough keeping momentum on a build this big.

I actually popped on the HAT forum this morning with the intent of posting a build log there, but the forum restricts image size and does not reduce the images to fit like the board here does. That would mean having to let Photobucket resize all of my images or upload small versions just for the HAT forum, and that isn't gonna happen. Too bad, so sad. Posted a URL there for interested parties.

I thought the MK5 had the skin-off doors but wasn't certain. That has got to be the way to go to get it all properly dead. At least I'm not cutting my hands to shreds trying to stick them in holes in the door!

2x15 in the sidewalls? ...wow. Looking at a pic from the VW site it looks imminently possible but not a lot of fun. Looks like VW left you with some nice lines in those panels, though. I will definitely be following THAT build!

-Todd


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## John Reid (Jun 6, 2008)

One on each side, mind you... I'm not THAT nuts. They will fit, though, and be flush to the original trunk panel lines. IDQ 15v1s, so around 1.35 cu ft. for each fiberglass box, more if I can make it. Gotta keep the car fully functional, like yours. /end thread hijack.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Here's a link on the how-to for outer door skin removal:

Mk V Outer Door skin removal

The server appears to be down right now, tho.

My doors are kind like that too...outers don't come off, but if you remove the window, you can remove that whole metal panel that the window motor and stuff attach to.

Jay


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

JayinMI said:


> Here's a link on the how-to for outer door skin removal:
> 
> Mk V Outer Door skin removal
> 
> ...


I have that pic at home if anyone needs it. 

Also, that "inner panel" is the window regulator. all you have to do is loosen the two 10mm bolts, roll the window down until there's just a little bit still showing then you can remove the window from the door. That way you don't have to tape anything up and worry about it falling down and shattering. 

You can easily deaden both sides of the regulator and as long as you leave the wire ropes and their pulleys alone you'll be fine. 

i thinki still have pics of my MkV door all apart and deadened and maybe even my B5.5 Passat which comes apart exactly like the MkIV door.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Yeah...
Thanks for that info and all, but this build is about a MKIV and the doors are very much done at this point. We were only mentioning the ease of entry compared to conventional doors. Not real certain how we got from there to how to get a MKV door apart, but if we could get back to the topic it wouldn't suck.
Just trying to steer us back on track, not trying to instigate.
-Todd


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I was just highlighting the differences between the two, mentioning a safer way to deal with the glass, and telling you that you CAN deaden the regulator.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> I was just highlighting the differences between the two, mentioning a safer way to deal with the glass, and telling you that you CAN deaden the regulator.


Thanks. My comment wasn't directed at you, or anyone in specific, just trying to steer us back on course. I hadn't previously tried to remove the glass for fear of it shattering on me, but I may consider that on future door-diving adventures.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Back to the craziness.

Last night I began the process of skinning the armrests, removed from the door, in the blue and black carbon fiber. It was a disaster. 

The previous owner loved ArmorAll like no other fluid on the planet. For those VW owners, you know that nearly every surface has a soft touch coating to it. It doesn't naturally shine. Well, if you saturate that with enough ArmorAll, it eventually turns to a sticky goo. There are very few ways to remove it without injuring the plastic underneath. Worse still, if you saturate the armrest foam with ArmorAll, it too becomes a godawful mess, but all you can note from the outside is that the fabric has gotten a bit poochy. Not unusual for VW door panels that have seen use. 

Well, when you disassemble it all and cut the armrest out of the door you quickly realize that this is not going to be a simple job. Nothing shy of 15 minute paint remover gel will take this stuff off, and the underlying form is pressed paper! Gah! It took DAYS to clean them up to the point that they would accept fiberglass. Eventually I had them clean and laid out two layers of lightweight s-glass to add a little backbone to them. Smoothed them out and blackened them in preparation for the CF work. 

The Cf cloth is heavy weight stuff. It would absolutely not conform to the tight radius curves that form a flange around the part. I pushed it well into gel before I decided this was absolutely not going to work and aborted, pulling the CF off before it was a total disaster. OK, so the part is saved, but I have a bit of a problem on my hands. 

I needed a way to wet it out and then apply even pressure to the entire thing. Of course the logical answer is to vacuum bag them. I'm aware of the technical aspects of bagging, but I've never actually DONE it. Secondly, this is a relatively flexible part, and a vacuum is going to warp the crap out of it. So not only did I need to vacuum bag the parts but I had to find a simple but effective means of support.

I decided the simplest course of action was to use sand. Under a vacuum sand compresses and becomes rock hard. So I began work on an airtight sandbox. Here's the result:










I didn't have proper vacuum bagging materials, though, so I had to come up with alternatives on the spot for each of the required layers in the process. To cover the sand and keep it off the part I used some Visqueen I had lying around. Then put in a piece of a Hefty garbage bag, then the part, then another layer of Hefty bag for peel ply, then some landscaping fabric for resin absorption and vacuum transmission, then put the entire thing inside a Hefty bag. Hmm. Will this work? Only one way to see! DRY RUN!










Holy crap. It looks like it just might work! Well, next step is to try a part with some scrap and see what happens. I didn't want to put the real part in there to test with, so.... Hey, there's an old water bottle! Wrapped that bad boy up in some wet-out scrap carbon, rolled it up, stuck it in the bag, and snapped this photo:










That's where things are as I type this. Should be just about done, so Imma go see what's up. Wish me luck!

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I went outside in giddy anticipation. What would await me as I opened the bag? Would I find a perfectly formed part? Would it be a disaster and a massive waste of time? Would it be some failure in between? How many licks DOES it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?!! 

I cut open the bag...










When this went in, I literally just slapped some resin on the CF as it sat on a piece of garbage bag. I then wrapped the bag around the bottle and stuck it in there. No planning, worst case scenario test.

And it worked.










The area that I was the most interested in was the bottom of the bottle. I needed the vacuum to suck the cloth down into the undercuts in the bottle for me to think it will work on the real part. I'd say it did a fine job...

I didn't do anything to fold the carbon into the bottom. I literally just slapped it on the bottle. 









On the half of the bottle that was facing up, it did a great job pulling the fabric in and laying it down. On the real part all it will need to do is suck in around one ledge, so it should have no problem at all.

I love it when the longshot actually works!

Now to replace the bag and do the real thing!
-Todd


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Nice work on the CF. Can't wait to se the finished product.

Oh, the only reason I posted the link to the Mk V door skin removal, was because people were talking about it and I thought yours *was* a Mk V. 
My bad.

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks. I was REALLY concerned that I wasn't going to have a solution for recovering these armrests; I've tried doing them in fabric and you have got to have some SERIOUS stretch to get anything to suck in the 4" depth and then compress without wrinkling on the way out. You also need some super adhesive to hold it all in. Clearly I was in a corner on this with the bagging being the only way I could see to get out of it. I'm just glad that it looks like it is going to work. 

No problem on the door thing. Like I said, I was just trying to get us back on topic. Not an issue.

Anyway, looking forward to bagging the first part tonight. It was getting late last night (what with my 430 wakeup....) so I just prepped everything for the pull. This afternoon when I get home I'll wet it out, pull a vacuum, and hope for the best!

-Todd


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## rhystard (Apr 15, 2010)

wow. loving this build. subscribed.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

cool work on the bagging solution... you remind me of many of my fellow enginners/fm's that think outside the square about things like this. keep it up!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> cool work on the bagging solution... you remind me of many of my fellow enginners/fm's that think outside the square about things like this. keep it up!


Well, since I never went to school for engineering I was never taught where the box (square) is supposed to be. Sometimes that's a good thing and I pull off the improbable. Other times I fail miserably as a result. 

This is not one of those miserable failures, thankfully!

The top part in the below pic is one stage ahead of the bottom one; it has had one sanding and a hot coat. It needs a finish sanding and polish once it's set. The bottom one has it's first hot coat and will get sanded level, one more hot coat, a finish sand, and then to the buffer. 










These are gonna look pretty darned good.









Tonight/tomorrow I will pull the front door panels and get started on them. I sincerely hope I have enough carbon left after the two screw-ups. It's gonna be close!


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

from what we can see their looking sweet!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

So many things I'd like to try...unfortunately, I have the income of a car stereo installer 

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Made it over the hump, but I am seriously running out of time. Here's what happened since the last post:

First, I pulled the front doors apart, pulled the armrests out of their hiding places, and got to work. This is the nasty gooey mess that I mentioned previously. It took hours to clean all of this mess off the two front armrests.










to get them looking like this:









so that I can saturate the paper with a coat of thinned resin, then fiberglass them, then carbon fiber skins.









Followed by hotcoat, sand, hotcoat, sand, hotcoat, sand... until they are looking reasonably smooth and I run out of weekend.









Then it's time for a couple of coats of laquer. I am hoping to have time to let these dry up and hand polish them, but I don't know that I am going to make it. It's Wednesday night and they are wet with laquer. Thursday they will have to be rubbed out and glued in, and then the glue's going to be 24 hours to dry. That leaves me putting the door cards and midbasses in place Friday after work and then packing the car up for Saturday's show. It's 4.5 hours away, and signup is at 9AM. You do the math. I was hoping to have some tuning time in there, but it looks like that's out the window. 

Here's the back panels ready to go:









and some eyecandy drying:









-Todd


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

That looks, really, _really_ good Todd.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

hope you make it...


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

natural lighting in the shop:








With the flash:









I'm going with "Nailed it!".

Back to work. Have to finish the passenger door!
-Todd


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## bigguy (Apr 13, 2010)

WOW thats awsome.


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## glidn (Apr 21, 2007)

that looks stunning,

I might need to get more info on your DIY process, Might have to do the same with different colouring in the girlfriends GTI.

If you had a RHD (right hand drive) golf. I might just have asked you to make them for me.


But very nice work keep it up.

How you going to inprove on the sound now?
Whats next?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

you do good work dude. Hopefully you can make it to some of the bigger MECA shows like Elite Summer Nationals.

a bit of advice. If the goal is to compete at finals, just use all the other shows to get ready for finals. Especially if you are primarily just doing SQ< dont sweat and stress over install stuff. while its always nice to have the install look "finished" realistically it wont make that big of a difference. Take your time and just be ready for Finals or a major show.
This will save you time and a ton of stress in the long run.

You do great work, so dont feel the need to rush and possibly compromise your work and fit and finish just to be ready for a local show
(yes I consider 4.5hrs a local show)


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

glidn said:


> that looks stunning,
> 
> I might need to get more info on your DIY process, Might have to do the same with different colouring in the girlfriends GTI.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliments!
This was a LOT of work, and as with pretty much everything in this car so far it involved things I didn't think about beforehand. A lot of on-the-spot engineering. The plastic parts in that panel above were made to work with a flexible armrest, and they are gapped for a fabric/foam cover. You have to take those things into account through the entire process or you could end up making a pretty part that won't fit anything. That would be BAD, lol.

To re-mount the armrests I ended up using 1.5x.5x.25 ABS tabs, drilled a hole and countersunk, put a pan-head .75" bolt through, and hot glued to the door panel around the armrest hole. Placed 8 of those per panel, then drilled the flange on the armrests to match and bolted them on. This only worked because my hot glue gun lost its mind and started heating the glue to 5billion degrees. On a test tab my hand brushed the glue more than 30 seconds after I applied it. I have a 3rd degree blister from it. The glue is so hot when it leaves the gun that it is literally boiling and steaming in an 80 degree workspace. This heat is just enough to slightly melt the surface of the ABS and the thermoplastic door panel and bond them. Regular hot glue comes off with a quick pull, but I was unable to pull a test tab off with pliers. Epoxy doesn't stick to the thermoplastic. Not for long, anyway. 

The now rigid armrests, additional mass, and more secure mounting made an audible improvement to the midbass sound. Much tighter and more controlled and with a little more of the punch they lacked. I also took some time to clay up the kick panels and change the acoustical treatment in the enclosure and that made a significant enough difference that I will need to take a couple hours today and re-tune because my image moved! The point, of course, is that even though many of the improvements you see appear to be cosmetic in nature, I'm doing them first to improve the sound and second to make them look good. 

The next big thing: Speaker grilles! I got gigged for not having grilles last install judging, so they move up the priority list. As mentioned in another thread, you have to acquire 40 points *in any format you wish to compete* at finals. That means 40 install points if you want to compete install there, and for me that means taking 1st in install at every show within an 8 hour drive from now till finals. 

No pressure.

-Todd


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## vwtoby (Oct 28, 2005)

sorry if its already been posted, but what kind of treatment did you do for the mid in the door? is it firing into a sealed chamber? or just using the door as a baffle?

awesome work, loving the Mk4 content


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

The midbass in the door is mounted on a set of rings that make up for the 15 degree angle of the middle door baffle and seals the midbass to the inner door. The airspace between the inner door panel and the middle door panel (that the regulator mounts on) is filled with foam and RaamMat. This way the door panel doesn't act like a speaker like the factory setup does. The inner door is heavily treated as indicated on page 1 or 2 of this build log. The L6 is currently running 40 to 220Hz and is clean to (guessing) about 110dB. For my driving down the road tune it runs 72 to 220 and the sub moves up to 80Hz to overcome road noise, etc. Works great, very tight and clean.

-Todd


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## vwtoby (Oct 28, 2005)

ahh, that sounds like an awesome setup....thanks for the response...going the same route in my mkIII jetta


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## Ianaconi (Nov 11, 2006)

Any chance of some build photos?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

...build photos? Of the mdf door rings? No, I don't have detailed photos of them, but there is much more than you can clearly indicate in pictures to the problem on the MK4. The real issue is making the adapter flush to the door panel as they do not have the same base angle; the middle panel and inner door panel are not square to each other. They also do not share the same CENTER. The only way I found to do it was to measure, measure, measure. Then when you think you've got it, measure it again. Sorry I can't be of more help there. I DO plan on redoing the mounting rings in the future, though, and I will post some info on what I do when that happens.

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

OK, so yesterday's show!
Had a GREAT time. It was the first real daytime show (the others were "locals night" shows) and it was fun getting to show everything off. Also had the opportunity to meet Mark Eldridge and listen to his car. First of all, I have to give respect to the man. Clearly he loves the sport and is a real professional. I was aware of his car, but NOT aware that he built it. Himself. THAT is a very well thought out, detailed, and executed build. Amazing workmanship. Nearly impossible to compete with him when it comes to best of show, or best SQ, etc.

Oddly, I found that I both liked and disliked his car. The presentation is just surreal, and just getting into the car it has an almost anechotic silence to it. Once you orient yourself to that, he turns the audio system on and the first thing I noticed was the soundstage bloom in front of me. What was disconcerting was that there was no tactile feedback AT ALL. The sound emanated from space in front of you, but there was no sense of vibration or impact whatsoever. It was almost like very large planar speakers like the Magnepans in that you had sound without movement. Very odd, and extremely convincing. He did have a little problem that it took a bit of time to sort out as he had his subs gained down -8dB from a previous listening session and hadn't realized that they weren't where they should be until we were listening (after judging...). I look forward to hearing the car again at the next big show.

One thing I wasn't very fond of was the extreme high frequency content. Certainly, it was very detailed, but also very much in-your-face. I couldn't listen to a system like that for long without serious fatigue. I also had a very difficult time locating things on stage. Not to say that the staging wasn't excellent, but the lack of environmental reflection increased the reflections you heard in the recording to the point that I had difficulty defining the boundaries of the elements in space in front of me. The same tracks in my car have very clearly defined boundaries and the energy at each instrument's location is much more clearly focused. This may be a lack of my system's ability to resolve the fine details of the recording as a result of reflections in the car, and I am not saying that my car stages better, just that there was a distinct difference. My car feels like being in an intimate little venue with the artist on the stage just in front of you. His car presents more like a stadium. Very different.

Anyhow, I did great at the show! Took 1st in Modified SQL and 1st in Modified Install, PHAT car and Most Improved. Also took $250 for second overall SQ (behind Mark, of course). My Sq score this show jumped to 83! A ten-point LEAP since the last show. The judge was extremely impressed with the car and it really showed. Can't wait till next time!

-Todd


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

totally tits, man. :thumbsup:


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

congrats and well done! your work continues to pay off. What did you learn from Mr Eldriges car?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I think the high freq. content is the biggest difference between a god car and a great car. Real music is very bright. Systems that tone the top end down don't sound real.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Well, yes and no. In a big rock concert setting with walls of amps and prosound equipment I agree that there is a painful amount of very high frequency information. In an all-acoustic setting there is considerably less. A human being speaking only has so much air in their voice. I have been to a LOT of concerts from Metallica to Skinny Puppy to classical, and I've never left a classical concert with blood freely flowing from my ears. In those amplified settings that DO make me done-deaf from 3K up _I_ consider the sound system to have been poorly set-up. High frequencies are one of those areas to me that you can definitely have too much of. I find, however, that this is one of those areas where there is considerable disagreement and I understand that not everyone has the same tastes. My tastes tend to run towards a less-is-more approach as I find that I am very sensitive to HF content and have a fairly low pain threshold there. I just don't feel that at normal listening levels you should have fatigue from the highs after a couple of minutes. 
Just my opinion, and it may not be what the judges want to hear, but if I can't listen to it all day I probably won't be happy with it for long.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> What did you learn from Mr Eldriges car?


I've been pondering this question since you posted it and it's actually a pretty tough question to answer. Part of the reason for that is the vast difference in presentation between our cars. He has a concert car. My car in comparison is a smoky little jazz/blues club. It's close and intimate and personal where his is big and expansive and almost a little cold so it's a bit of an apples and oranges thing there. Please understand that I am NOT saying his car doesn't sound good, it is just very clinical and precise in a way that I am unaccustomed to. 

One thing that strikes me and that I would like to work on in my car was the distinct decoupling of the listener. The lack of physical cues from the drivers made for a much cleaner listening experience, and that is due to the extreme enclosure systems that he's used in the car. It was very much like listening to a home system that way and really made the speakers disappear leaving only a soundstage. I also feel that I can do some work on the high frequency range to try to improve the air and ambiance and continue to work on the bottom two octaves to try to get the little bit of boom out that's left. Finally, I need to do some more work reducing the reflections in the car especially near the tweets. Having them stuck out from the sail panels helps a lot as it keeps them as far from the glass as I can get them without sticking them in the kicks.

Mark has one heck of a good car and there are many things I have taken away from the experience, but my car will never present things the way his car does and for my listening preferences I am OK with that. 

-Todd


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> Well, yes and no. In a big rock concert setting with walls of amps and prosound equipment I agree that there is a painful amount of very high frequency information. In an all-acoustic setting there is considerably less. A human being speaking only has so much air in their voice. I have been to a LOT of concerts from Metallica to Skinny Puppy to classical, and I've never left a classical concert with blood freely flowing from my ears. In those amplified settings that DO make me done-deaf from 3K up _I_ consider the sound system to have been poorly set-up. High frequencies are one of those areas to me that you can definitely have too much of. I find, however, that this is one of those areas where there is considerable disagreement and I understand that not everyone has the same tastes. My tastes tend to run towards a less-is-more approach as I find that I am very sensitive to HF content and have a fairly low pain threshold there. I just don't feel that at normal listening levels you should have fatigue from the highs after a couple of minutes.
> Just my opinion, and it may not be what the judges want to hear, but if I can't listen to it all day I probably won't be happy with it for long.



No, I meant REAL live acoustic music. Hit up a live jazz club or a local orchestra and you'll see what I mean. Real music is much more visceral than most "high end" car systems are and definitely brighter. 

I totally agree about the concert sound but I'm not talking about those in this case.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> No, I meant REAL live acoustic music. Hit up a live jazz club or a local orchestra and you'll see what I mean. Real music is much more visceral than most "high end" car systems are and definitely brighter.
> 
> I totally agree about the concert sound but I'm not talking about those in this case.


That's what I meant; real life live music. At what I consider to be judging levels (loud spoken word levels for most of the Chesky disk, for instance. I dunno from 'dee bees'.) which most live music is NOT performed at, I expect occasional discomfort from the instruments that create it (sax squeal, pounding the crap out of a cymbal, etc.) . Unless the 'music' is a squealing 3 year old girl, the human voice shouldn't be piercing *most* of the time, and S'es shouldn't cause _pain_. They just don't in real life in my experience. Listening to Norah Jones play in a small setting (Hard Rock Cafe Orlando, seating front and just left of center) was at no point a painful experience even though it was louder than I'd play her in the car. I dunno, for me personally there's just a point where there's too much and I stop enjoying the music.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Ahhhh, yeah if it's piercing then there's some problems. If his was doing that then it needs work in that area IMO.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I felt that it was. As I listened to his system I found that I had difficulty locating on the stage because what appears as "space" between the instruments in my car has actual ambient sound being reproduced in his. I guess this is as a result of the lack of reflection from his front stage and from the vast amounts of HF data causing me to be distracted from the distinctness of each object in the soundfield. It is this effect that causes me to use the term 'clinical' in describing the stage. 
I find it very difficult to describe the nuances of what I hear; I don't seem to have the vocabulary to support my perceptions except through visual analogy. I associate the overly 'bright' sound to the visual effect of walking outside from a darkened room. The sunlight is the same as it always is, but it literally washes out your vision and causes the muscles in your eye to strain to cope in the same way an overly bright sound makes your inner ear recoil. When the sound gets to the point that my ear begins to recoil, my brain loses its ability to perceive nuance. I found that to be the case here. I like just enough light to clearly see the detail, but not enough that it washes out the finer points.
Does that make sense?
-Todd


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Nice job on the install so far, I would think a grill over your door speakers would be better.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

DAT said:


> ...I would think a grill over your door speakers would be better.


Grilles are next up on the ToDo list! I just got notification that my dash pad has been made and shipped as well so I can't wait to get that on and see (hear) what kind of difference that makes.

I am also considering a relocation of the processor and redesign of the false floor area for install points. I lose points for serviceability of the processor with it located in the rear passenger armrest panel area because I have to remove the panel for access (< 5 minutes to have it off and back on). I was thinking of placing it in a shadow box between the sub and the back seats in the false floor (behind a cover like the sub grille). I've also considered reducing the size of the cutout for the sub and putting mirrored plex under covers to the left and right of it (with covers). With the covers off you would see the reflection of the amps mounted above it.

Thoughts?

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Hopefully you can make it to some of the bigger MECA shows like Elite Summer Nationals.


Just had a look and ESN is on the same weekend (August 7th 2010) as a more local Autofest 2x points show, and during the first week in five years that I'll get to see my son Alex (12 yrs old) who will be flying in from his home in England. Maybe another show? Lol. I was seriously considering it till I saw the overlap on my Google Calendar... 

Sorry.
-Todd


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Todd, who made your dash pad? I have been looking for one and nobody makes one for my car with the options that it came with. 
And bring your son with you, ROADTRIP!!! Think about the bonding experience


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

chefhow said:


> Todd, who made your dash pad? I have been looking for one and nobody makes one for my car with the options that it came with.
> And bring your son with you, ROADTRIP!!! Think about the bonding experience


Be careful on Dash pads sometimes they made a huge difference other times they kill you front stage.

Ask Doitor he has tried 3 different models , I have only tried 2...


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

DAT said:


> Be careful on Dash pads sometimes they made a huge difference other times they kill you front stage.
> 
> Ask Doitor he has tried 3 different models , I have only tried 2...


I have a few reflections I am trying to get rid of and thought about using one.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Todd, who made your dash pad? I have been looking for one and nobody makes one for my car with the options that it came with.
> And bring your son with you, ROADTRIP!!! Think about the bonding experience


The dash pad is a "custom molded carpet dash pad" by Coverking through CarCoverPlanet.com. I have no idea what it will look like or how it will fit, but I will report back when it arrives.

Alex is already in for more of a roadtrip than he's ever imagined possible. He'll be flying into Orlando (alone!) and spending a week driving out to OK with my parents from their place in Sebastian, FL; heading through Cherokee, NC, doing some gem mining in the NC/TN area, etc. England is only a couple hours' drive in any direction to another COUNTRY so he will already be rather unprepared for the boredom of roadtripping and he'll just be arriving here in OK that weekend. I'm sure we'll have a blast though!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

highly said:


> The dash pad is a "custom molded carpet dash pad" by Coverking through CarCoverPlanet.com. I have no idea what it will look like or how it will fit, but I will report back when it arrives.
> 
> Alex is already in for more of a roadtrip than he's ever imagined possible. He'll be flying into Orlando (alone!) and spending a week driving out to OK with my parents from their place in Sebastian, FL; heading through Cherokee, NC, doing some gem mining in the NC/TN area, etc. England is only a couple hours' drive in any direction to another COUNTRY so he will already be rather unprepared for the boredom of roadtripping and he'll just be arriving here in OK that weekend. I'm sure we'll have a blast though!


Thanks for the info, I am looking forward to how it comes out and how it looks, and have fun with your son, we can catch you at Finals....


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

highly said:


> The dash pad is a "custom molded carpet dash pad" by Coverking through CarCoverPlanet.com. I have no idea what it will look like or how it will fit, but I will report back when it arrives.
> 
> Alex is already in for more of a roadtrip than he's ever imagined possible. He'll be flying into Orlando (alone!) and spending a week driving out to OK with my parents from their place in Sebastian, FL; heading through Cherokee, NC, doing some gem mining in the NC/TN area, etc. England is only a couple hours' drive in any direction to another COUNTRY so he will already be rather unprepared for the boredom of roadtripping and he'll just be arriving here in OK that weekend. I'm sure we'll have a blast though!


Wow, I can't imagine having to roadtrip with my grandparents for that long...hope he makes it 

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Thanks for the info, I am looking forward to how it comes out and how it looks....


Well, the dashpad came in!

Overall I think that I am happy with it. The pad seems to be well made of a poly carpet with cutouts for the vents and a nice overlayed binding. The "molding" is actually pretty accurate and follows the dash well. The Drivers' side is a perfect fit, but it seems like the pad was a little off in the molding process and skews a little on the Passengers' side. Molding appears to have been done by heatsetting the pad, and it has a reasonably crisp line that follows the crease in the top of the dash well.

The pad itself is 1/4 to 3/8 thick measured by eye and is therefore not bulky and looks quite nice up there even though it is made of carpet. I considered the velour pad, but decided against it as my sole reason for the pad is acoustical. I felt the carpet's absorption and more diffractive surface texture would trump the velour for that purpose. I can't comment on if that is indeed the case.

It took a little while to come to terms with the change in the stage as a result of the pad. You've all seen how my tweeters mount; in the sail panels facing the listener in the listening position. This minimized forward reflections (over firing across the windshield) and provided the best apparent stage in my installation. Tweeters cross over at ~4KHz at 24dB. Listening impressions indicate that the stage is both more coherent and more robust. Objects used to image with pinpoint accuracy, and that hasn't changed specifically, but where the object previously was a 2 dimensional cutout with very sharp edges before there now are 3 dimensional objects whose edges have shadow added to them. At first this appeared to make the stage more diffuse, but in reality seems to have added depth to each object such that you can hear more ambiance between objects on the stage. 

Along with the imaging changes, the stage size has changed somewhat. The stage appears slightly narrower overall, and it seems to have raised 4-6" mirror to mirror. I attribute the narrowing of the stage to fewer reflections creating a false sense of ambiance. Stage depth has increased a good foot due to the more 3-d nature of each object in space. Coupling between the tweeter and midrange seems cleaner and smoother with less of a feeling of separation between the drivers. This seems to have increased the audibility of reflections at the midrange, however, and every now and then you localize the midrange. 

Localization of the tweeter due to early reflections has all but ceased, and the drivers location is almost completely transparent now with no tendency of vocal sibilance to jump from the center image to the window next to the tweeter. A 1" collar of carpet cut to a halfmoon and placed to the outside (window side) of the tweeters takes that illusion one more step closer to perfection. I'll be incorporating that into the tweeter grille assembly as it gets finalized.

Overall I am very pleased with the purchase, though it will clearly take some time to accept the new stage. The changes are not radically different like changing a driver would be, but they are definitely much more audible than the underdash treatments for the midrange. There is no question that the stage is now more accurate and that the difference is clearly audible. A 10/10 purchase and worth the money if you are competing.

Pictures as soon as I have the chance to take them!
-Todd


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> I felt that it was. As I listened to his system I found that I had difficulty locating on the stage because what appears as "space" between the instruments in my car has actual ambient sound being reproduced in his. I guess this is as a result of the lack of reflection from his front stage and from the vast amounts of HF data causing me to be distracted from the distinctness of each object in the soundfield. It is this effect that causes me to use the term 'clinical' in describing the stage.
> I find it very difficult to describe the nuances of what I hear; I don't seem to have the vocabulary to support my perceptions except through visual analogy. I associate the overly 'bright' sound to the visual effect of walking outside from a darkened room. The sunlight is the same as it always is, but it literally washes out your vision and causes the muscles in your eye to strain to cope in the same way an overly bright sound makes your inner ear recoil. When the sound gets to the point that my ear begins to recoil, my brain loses its ability to perceive nuance. I found that to be the case here. I like just enough light to clearly see the detail, but not enough that it washes out the finer points.
> Does that make sense?
> -Todd



It does make sense. If it's too much it's too much.

To play devil's advocate, I wonder if maybe that recording was supposed to be a bit diffuse with extra ambiance. Not knowing the material I can't say, just throwing it out there.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> It does make sense. If it's too much it's too much.
> 
> To play devil's advocate, I wonder if maybe that recording was supposed to be a bit diffuse with extra ambiance. Not knowing the material I can't say, just throwing it out there.


Well, the listening session began with material I wasn't familiar with, so I began feeling the same thing. I did get him to put in the Mapleshade disc, though, and I'm reasonably familiar with that selection. Track 2, Alberta, clearly had much more depth to the track than I was used to in my car. The vocals, which set pretty far back in the stage, normally sound a bit like a "floating head in space" in my car. In his they were much more grounded and occupied more width of the stage. It is that added width that left me with the feeling that, comparatively, the stage is more diffuse. I felt similarly about track 10, where the guitar is clearly to the left of the singer and separated by a clear sense of black "space". As stated, however, I think that is because there are fewer reflections in the car's environment mucking things up and allowing the space in the recording to be more clearly reproduced. I feel confident that if the highs (or volume) were turned down just a bit I would be able to more clearly locate vocal center and clearly see the object on the stage. I was just overwhelmed by the HF content and the brightness made localization a little difficult. I couldn't hear through it due to the bright presentation.

Oddly enough, the implementation of the dash pad in my car brings more of that out on the same recordings. I can hear now that the 2-d clarity surrounded by blackness I previously heard in my car is being replaced by more depth to each instrument filling in the space between objects. Visually, the entire scene is becoming better lit. My initial impression in my own car was that I had lost focus, when in fact I had gained depth that softened the edges of each object on the stage. An odd an unexpected twist. The reduced overall HF content in my car makes that a much more bearable, and therefore listenable, change though (to me, of course).

I'm finding it interesting how my technical listening skills are increasing and adapting to changes that I make in the car. I am beginning to be able to resolve much finer changes than I could perceive in the past, and I am becoming aware of (comparatively) very minute details. Clearly (to me), my ear/brain is becoming more aware and capable of listening much more critically. Not having a 'reference' system that compares either tonally or image-wise to the GTi makes it very difficult for me to know what any given recording is supposed to sound like, though. That is definitely one of the things I find most daunting about the tuning experience. What is the goal, and how do I know when I have reached it and not created an unrealistic listening experience, however pleasurable?

Finally, Mark did clearly indicate that his system, like mine at the time, was running a less than optimal tuning. We both had 'technical difficulties' with our equipment that day, and we've both resolved to bring things up to speed for our next show. Seems a common thread was our processors' failure to save and recall our tunings accurately; his due to a recent firmware upgrade and mine from the fact that Alpine 701s sometimes fail to do what they say they did (store a preset successfully). I'm looking forward to hearing his car again with a tuning he's more comfortable with. Add to that my newb-ness at critical listening, and my amateur 'review' of his car leaves more than ample room for perceptual error. There are a ton of judges with decades of experience that see his car as the epitome of the sport, and this is all new to me! 

Sorry for the novel, but it sometimes takes a lot of words to be clear.
-Todd


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## Afronaut (Apr 27, 2010)

Subscribed...


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## knifey (Nov 22, 2008)

Me too, great progress so far


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

It's time for some advice from you guys: Grille cloth or bare?

I spent some time this afternoon and started on my speaker grilles. Tweeters are the smallest, so I started there first. Decided for now to just go with some pressed grilles, so...

Cut a hole in some scrap 3/4" MDF to start the die for the press. Rounded off the edges of the cutout to make a curved-top grille. Got it all set and ready to go by the HF 20ton press.









And started the process:


















As it stretched I pulled it out with a pair of pliers to minimize the kinks.


















And cut it out with tin snips:









Continued the process to make the other one:









Made the mounting ring on the lathe out of some 1/4" ABS. The backside is undercut to just fit around the rim of the speaker. The front side has a groove cut in it to accept the grille, then was rounded over by hand in the lathe. Grille pops into the slot, and Bingo! We have a grille! The grille is held in place by magnets on the mounting screws.










So there it is bare and unpainted. Does it look better like that or like this?








Grille cloth just hot-glued on to see how it looks. 

And the flipside:










I'm not loving the look overall, but it is a start until I decide what I really want to do there.

So...cloth or no cloth? Either way I'll powdercoat it (the grille metal) black before covering. I considered carbon on the ring and black powdercoated mesh, but that is just inviting unnecessary asspain.

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

More, because ten's the limit!


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## Afronaut (Apr 27, 2010)

I like the grill with the cloth covering.


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## trevordj (Feb 22, 2009)

I am kinda diggin it bare. I think after you powder coat it will look awesome.


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## jaydub (Feb 22, 2010)

I definitely like the bare look.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Bare.

And this turned out great. It might just be enough for me to buy a HF press.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

More pics...
I know, it's feast or famine in my buld log. Nothing for a week, then BAM!

Both fabricated!









The one background left has powder applied. The one front right has been sandblasted and is ready for powder









Powder flying!








Kinda hard to hold an air hose, press a foot pedal, pull the powder trigger, AND snap a pic all at the same time... but I did it. Yay me!

Now to bake the powder in. For those that don't know, powder coat is a very finely ground plastic. It is applied electrostatically so it will literally change direction in the air and head for the part so it can stick to it!. Since it's a dry powder, touching it once applied wipes it right off and leaves nothing on the part. You have to bake it on so it stays put. The heat melts the granulated plastic causing it to melt in place, leaving the part literally wrapped in plastic. It's very durable stuff and very easy to work with as it will never run like paint. Perfect for this job as it applies evenly around the mesh!

Here it is in the next phase:









That's where it sits as I type this. A few more minutes and it will come out, cool to room temp, and be ready for whatever you want to throw at it. No drying time! Yay!

Completed pics soon.

-Todd


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## knifey (Nov 22, 2008)

Those look great! I think bare is going to be the sweetest IMO


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Finished. 
Told ya it didn't take long!

Wide view:









Closeup. Finished in Mirror Gloss Black. Perfect finish. I love powder.









Tomorrow afternoon: the midbass grilles!

(Still taking opinions on grille cloth. If no cloth, I'll finish the ABS ring in black Soft Touch paint like the rest of the interior.)


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Oh and since you tend to be a curious lot, before someone asks...
The grille mesh is McMaster-Carr Line number 92725T22, Hexagon-hole Perforated Sheet, .030 thick, 22 gauge steel, 1/4" Diameter, 79% Open Area, 36x40". Cost is $36.54. Shipping is another 12 bucks. Worth it.

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

knifey said:


> Those look great! I think bare is going to be the sweetest IMO


I think I agree. Covered they look like really big microphones even though the dome is less than 3/4" tall. Bare they have more of a 'thunderdome cagefight' feel. Like the grille is the only thing between you and certain DEATH! Muah ha ha ha! :mean:


Ok, maybe not. But they do seem more 'industrial'. :laugh:
-T


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## knifey (Nov 22, 2008)

^^^^^^ROFLMFAO^^^^^^


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## trevordj (Feb 22, 2009)

highly said:


> Oh and since you tend to be a curious lot, before someone asks...
> The grille mesh is McMaster-Carr Line number 92725T22, Hexagon-hole Perforated Sheet, .030 thick, 22 gauge steel, 1/4" Diameter, 79% Open Area, 36x40". Cost is $36.54. Shipping is another 12 bucks. Worth it.
> 
> -Todd


I have a big sheet of that stuff sitting in my garage that I have used a couple times. I was kinda surprised how flimsy it was but always thought it would stiffen up with shaping. Did you find this to be the case?


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

trevordj said:


> I have a big sheet of that stuff sitting in my garage that I have used a couple times. I was kinda surprised how flimsy it was but always thought it would stiffen up with shaping. Did you find this to be the case?


It did quite a lot for the small tweeter size. I'd feel safe putting a 25lb weight on it without it crushing. We'll see how it looks when I have the midbass done.
-Todd


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## JP Fabrication (Feb 20, 2008)

Very well done.
I vote bare. I'll take your black ones for my '04 R32


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

cool work on the powder coat! Keep the custom grill them consistant for the midbass.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> cool work on the powder coat! Keep the custom grill them consistant for the midbass.


I'm on it! Glad you like the powder. It's the way to go for stuff like this!










Talk about fun machining with a router. The lip that fits over the top of the midbass is .17" wide. Exactly. All the way around. The ring is amde of two layers bonded together; Acrylic and ABS. Used ABS glue (wather thin) for the bond and worked out great. Got one cut, the other in the morning. Then I'll press the grilles and figure how I am going to jig these things up on the lathe to make the grooves. You can't see it well in the pic, but the ring has a nice taper to the center so that it sits flush with the face of the driver on the inside, and sits flush to the DOOR on the outside. In place, it looks like the grille is part of the driver itself!










Gonna TRY to keep the grille mesh as low profile as possible. I'm aiming for 1/8" high at the ring tapering to 3/8" high or so in the center. Hopefully pics up tomorrow night!

-Todd


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## Afronaut (Apr 27, 2010)

I have to admit the grills look great bare and powdercoated...great work.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Afronaut said:


> I have to admit the grills look great bare and powdercoated...great work.


I was just noticing yesterday that they now bear a striking resemblance to the Hertz tweeters:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

WOW.
Now THAT was a show!









As you can see, it went well.
Best of Show
Modified SQ first place (77)
Modified Install First Place (80)
RTA Freq Out Second Place (28)
Amateur Street 1 First Place (128dB)

and

SQ Phat Awards:
Install Best of Show
SQ Best of Show
PHAT Install 1st Place

SPL PHAT awards:
SPL PHAT Install
PHAT 12
PHAT Car

Had a great time, but it was hot as Hades and it's only going hotter. Glad to have had my wife with me for a show, but sorry to have had to put her through the heat. MUST watercool those amps NOW. I've had no shutdown problems, but on long drives in the afternoon with the windows down (and the stereo turned WAY up) I'll kick the internal fans on (sub amp only). It's WATER TIME! I'm betting that if I didn't have the Ez-Up I'd have shutdown for sure.

Very pleased to meet a new friend, Scott Mccann and friends out of Virginia. His white truck is going to be really, really nice when it's done. He's running HAT front stage and it was nice to hear the Hybrid tweeter finally. He's running a pillar/dash setup that really works with that expansive windshield. Deep and sharply defined stage. Very nice to hear something that was clearly designed to perform! Sadly, none of the OKC/DFW locals made it but I's sure we'll get it together.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

But, but, but...where are the mid grille pics? 

Nice job...Looks like things are going very well.
Congrats.

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Not quite done. Had some car troubles that needed to get sorted out and took top priority. Car was overboosting and is not chipped. Stock is 8.x PSi, and it was spiking to 16 and holding 12. Fixed the problem by putting a bleed valve around the computer controlled wastegate solenoid set at ~8 PSi. No more spike or overboost, and the car drove great. 

The grilles themselves look great, but are uninspiring in the install. They fit the requirement, but I don't like them. I've mentally redesigned and will be remounting the midbass in behind the doorskin. I'll have a thin trim ring over the doorskin opening to trim the cut edge and make it look good with the grille off. The grill will be shallow and covered, and extend to the front edge of the door. When the door is closed it will tie the midbass and midrange grilles together to look like one piece.

With the miniDSP plugin taking shape, I will be adding l-r rear fill. My L3's will come out of the kicks and head to the C-pillars. The L3s will be replaced with L4s in the kicks, probably firing at each other and not aimed at the listeners. This will hopefully help with some minor comb filtering that causes the stage to pull right slightly on track5 of the MECA disk. We'll just have to see how that plays out as time goes on!

In the meantime I should be finishing up the current midbass grilles shortly.

-Todd

Hopefully then I'll be able to start on the Secret Weapon Project. Details on that will have to wait awhile, but if THAT works out it will change the game


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Judging by how well your car has been doing, I'd probably leave the L3's in the kicks and add a set in the c pillars...

If you go with the 4's then you'll have to rebuild the kicks again, right?

Thanks for the pics.

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> Judging by how well your car has been doing, I'd probably leave the L3's in the kicks and add a set in the c pillars...
> 
> If you go with the 4's then you'll have to rebuild the kicks again, right?
> 
> ...


Well, I have a set of L4s here staring me in the face. It's not that the L3's aren't good in the kicks, it's that the L4's are better. The L4s do 150Hz the way the L3s do 315. With a range like that, it's hard to NOT use the L4s if you have them in hand. The L4 wasn't even in production when I purchased my 631 set (preorder!) and I intended the L3 to live in my pillars. Didn't go that route, so the L4 has a very very strong draw.

Yes and no on the rebuild. I'd probably pull another set from the molds and then cut out the center section, remolding it for the L4. Minor (weekend) adjustment to an existing part that I can reproduce at will (thanks to the molds).

-Todd


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I can see that.

Jay


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## glidn (Apr 21, 2007)

Very nice, congrats.

As for the boost spiking I would say the n75 valve has failed.
Common on the 1.8t motors.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

You'd think that, but a new N75 valve of the same revision did nothing for the problem. Neither did swapping out the ECU. Pressurized intake test was good. Vac line check of the N249 circuit was good. No codes in VCDS. Actual boost exceeds requested in the logs. MyFastgti and VWVortex were no help. I was stumped and finally resorted to the bypass. 

I'm VERY open to suggestions!
-Todd


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

Congrats! All the hard work you have put in to this install is paying off like it should. 

Btw, I actually like the way the mid grills came out


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

highly said:


> Not quite done. Had some car troubles that needed to get sorted out and took top priority. Car was overboosting and is not chipped. Stock is 8.x PSi, and it was spiking to 16 and holding 12. Fixed the problem by putting a bleed valve around the computer controlled wastegate solenoid set at ~8 PSi. No more spike or overboost, and the car drove great.


Have you pulled the codes yet? Overboost is usually a bad N75 or a vacuum hose. It's an easy fix.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

so... that was a slightly sucessfull outing!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> so... that was a slightly sucessfull outing!


Indeed it was 
I decided to give SPL a go this time around, and it paid off. I'd never done SPL before, but I was rather curious what the Dayton would do in the car. It buries by Radio Shack SPL meter, so I expected 127+. Not bad for a 95+ degree day with a single Dayton HO 12" on less than 300 watts from the bridged Profile Ultra4, and certainly much louder than I would ever turn it up to. 

It was a 2x event and Mark Eldridge WASN'T there, so I actually had a shot at more than just my class! Lol. He'll always take SQ Install, Best of Show, etc. so it makes it kinda tough. I'm gunning for the top, though, so maybe one day I'll take him! (chuckles). Yeah, right.



nirschl said:


> Btw, I actually like the way the mid grills came out


I agree; they turned out pretty decent, but they are not what I had in my head as optimal. I wanted to lower the profile on them considerably, but just can't. I even tried a square-bent corner flat grille on them and they didn't quite do it for me. These will do until I get things rearranged a little, but they have that "aftermarket speakers reside here" grille look. Not what I am ultimately after in a stealthy OE-style install.

The MDF ring that is just behind the door panel will get routed out to accept the midbass putting it flush behind the panel. The mounting bolts will go through the outer grille trim ring, the door panel, the driver, and into the t-nuts installed in the MDF ring. That will allow the grille to sit much more flush with the door and when the door is closed the mirdange and midbass grilles should pull together to look like one sweeping grille. We'll have to wait to see how that pulls together. Just because it works in my head doesn't mean it is achievable, unfortunately.

-Todd


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

good to see you have a little competition fever, its healthy. Those few who talk it down are usually just hating because the can...! keep it up now!


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Another weekend, another show!
I think I need a bigger mantlepiece...










2X Choctaw Autofest series show. 

SQ:
Second Place Overall SQ ($250) behind Mark Eldridge
Modified SQ First Place
Modified Install First Place
RTA Freq Out First Place
SQ PHAT Install 1st Place
Most Improved

SPL
SPL AS1 First Place
PHAT 12
SPL PHAT Install






The icing on the cake was that I BEAT MARK ELDRIDGE in RTA with a *38*!

YEAH BABY!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Out of curiosity, if you go with bare grills for the midbass and tweets, are you going to redo the grills in the kicks to match?

I rather like the midbass grills, but the are a little taller than I'd like for my own install, but they turned out really good. Great idea!

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm not uber-thrilled with the midbass OR the tweeter grilles, but they are mostly just for points. Went from a 74 to an 80 install score for those and a couple of other little things. To me they are WAY to tall off the panels, and the tweeter looks like a big microphone ball. Not what I am after, but it's what I have.

My plan: L6 goes behind the door panel with a bezel. Bezel holds low profile covered grille that doesn't look like a wart on the door. Grille blends to the curve at the front of the door to make it look less like a saucer sitting on the door panel.

L3 goes into C-pillar for rear fill

L4 replaces L3 in the kicks firing at each other to reduce comb filtering and increase bandwidth and,hopefully, stage width. Kick made from modified molded L3 kick. Gets mostly carpeted with a carpeted grille and vinyl where it meets the door/sill. The vinyl shrinks in the heat and has been pulling pretty badly with the ca-razy curves. Looks fine until you inspect them close up.

Tweeters may be getting an overhaul based on the results of some experiments I have been doing. Think about what B&O and Aston Martin have in common


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

WOAH! nice outing. Your getting good at this.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

sydmonster said:


> WOAH! nice outing. Your getting good at this.


 Thanks! I'm making every effort to improve!

I've come up with a very interesting setup for the tweeters that finally corrects the localization issues I was having with the side glass. I was having an issue with side glass reflections being delayed by just enough that some center image sounds were being pulled out to the tweeter due to the delayed reflection. I tried all sorts of things to reduce the reflection. Some helped a little, but the effect was still there and tended to narrow the stage and reduced ambiance quite a lot. I decided to focus on removing the audible presence of the tweeter itself and provide ONLY reflected high frequency information to the listener with NO direct hf. This increased the separation between the L and R tweeters dramatically and now there is only one apparent source of HF data; the glass. The stage is now always as wide as the middle of the side view mirrors and has gotten much deeper. Cymbals on the left and right are now much more distinct, and there are no holes in the stage. Height has improved to the point that on STYX Paradise Theater, track 6, Lonely People, the rain at the intro comes from a good foot ABOVE the car. The thunderclap appears to be 2 feet to the right of the front wheel! Most importantly there is no tendency to localize on the actual tweeter as it is not 'visible' to the ear. A center imaged voice has _no_ sibilant jump to the physical locations of the drivers. It's like having tweeters in the kicks with a wider, taller, and deeper stage. Definitely an improvement!

I'll be doing a patent search on the shapes that I used for the reflector as it differs from the Sausalito Audio Acoustic Lens. The ALT is meant to direct sound forward of the tweeter and control its dispersion into open space. This is designed specifically for use in a reflected setup. The 180 degree beam is narrowed to 90 degrees, and sound is absorbed to the rear of the device, not steered. Waterfall plots off the glass are nearly identical to an open-air plot on a 4' baffle, and I am fairly certain that I can correct the anomalies that remain. Hopefully I'll be able to file it soon and then will show it off 

Really, really cool. Looks pretty silly, but that's what grille cloth is for!

-Todd


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

highly said:


> Tweeters may be getting an overhaul based on the results of some experiments I have been doing. Think about what B&O and Aston Martin have in common


You'll be selling them for a jaw-dropping price?


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Woah! ill looking out for that.

and +1 on controling reflections.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

n_olympios said:


> You'll be selling them for a jaw-dropping price?


<snerk>
Yeah, they are both very expensive, exotic brands. 
I actually meant the Sausalito Audio Acoustic Lens, but I suppose you've figured THAT out by now. I'm just really excited about the results so far. There aren't that many applications for it but if you have room for tweets in the sail panels it makes a HUGE difference. It's like having the tweets firing up the windshield at the rearview mirror, but with muuuuch greater channel separation. I tried a bunch of things from the 'one tweeter' thread and found them to all be tradeoffs. So far I haven't found the tradeoff from this approach, and win-win is hard to come by these days.

By the way, no I'm not looking to sell it for an exorbitant price. I don't think there's even that big a market for it. I DO want to patent it though.... never know when that could come in handy and there's nothing like telling the judge that you are the designer of the patent-pending wave steering mechanism in your install!

Points is points, after all.


-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

highly said:


> The icing on the cake was that I BEAT MARK ELDRIDGE in RTA with a *38*!
> 
> YEAH BABY!


Oops. Looks like that was a 34, not a 38. 30 Hz was +6dB.
Sorry for the misinformation; I did not have the RTA printout and got the number wrong 
Result was the same, though!
-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Update:
Had some time on the weekend and again last night. Finished up the L4 install with new kick panels. Though not as technically interesting, I am happier with the outcome. Drivers fire at each other and are placed a little deeper and higher in the kick area. In order to better blend with the interior, the door sill molding shape was continued up the side of the new kick panel, and the front half of the panel was carpeted. In-car these blend in so well that you simply won't notice them with the grilles on (they will either be carpeted or covered with grille cloth. 










The increased authority of the L4 in the lower midrange is really apparent on the saxophone track (Track 19?) on the Chesky disk. The bark of the sax is much better, and the woody reed sound is much crisper. Imaging is more stable into the lower midrange on Track 5, another one I had problems with on the L3. Tuning center-bias on 1/3 octave sine tracks requires MUCH less EQ work with no significant comb filtering through the entire range of the L4 (currently 180Hz to 4KHz). The L4 sounds great crossed higher, but the tweeters get strained sounding if I move the xover point too much higher and tonality suffers.

Pics!



















I have had no luck finding vinyl the same color as the dark charcoal plastic used in the GTi, so I will be covering the door sill in the vinyl I can find. Seems the only way to get the panels to look right!










This shot shows how narrow the old kick was. The new one looks much more at home in the car.

The midbass was moved behind the door panel and the mounting adapter was hogged out as far as I could possibly go. While the panel was off I took care of the last of the resonant items and the difference is readily apparent with only one door done. Midbass authority is greatly improved, and the panel is clearly contributing to the sound less than the driver side. A beauty ring is being made to finish off the face of the driver and to hold the extremely low profile new grille system. I think I am going to like this setup MUCH better than the previous work.

Unfortunately now that the door is all but perfect and all buttoned up, none of the electrics work. I'll have to go BACK in to figure out what I've effed up.

Next up: I've been working on a promising new SPL Extreme Low Frequency Driver system (ELF?) codenamed 'el Coqui' (after the tiny but surprisingly loud frog common to Puerto Rico). 








I checked with Steve who forwarded the specifics on to the R&E board for review. Unfortunately the 'driver' would force me to compete in Radical-X1 or 2. I'm going to continue to build the small engineering prototype because I HAVE to hear this thing, but the classification probably nixes my plans for a larger version for competition codename 'Bullfrog'. You guessed it; bigger and louder version of it's little brother.

We'll see how things go, though. If I can get el Coqui into the 130-140s then maybe the big brother will get built after all!

Finally, design work continues on the high frequency lens. Things are getting very close to dead-on and I've done some preliminary work towards filing for a patent. I hope to run it in competition at the next event in Durant to see what judge acceptance of the new sound is like. Decision to continue down that path would follow the scoresheet.

That's all for now!
-Todd


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## knifey (Nov 22, 2008)

Long time..........

No update.........

?????????????

<<<BUMMMMP>>>


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Very true. I need to get some pics up of some of the changes. If I manage to get the time today then I will, but tomorrow is Off to the Vinny! Lot of work to do before then as I'll be running the MS-8 for the show and I haven't even turned it ON yet...


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

how low do you think those tang band ceramics could be comfortably crossed? I'm thinking about using them in a 2 way with 6.5 peerless hds nomex.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

They sound best crossed around 2.4 to 2.8k in my system, but they don't roll off till around 1K. I end up running them around 3.8k in the 3-way setup. With moderate power 1.4 with a sharp crossover should be doable assuming you aren't beating the crap out of them. I really like the sound and for the low price they are very much worth trying them out if you can fit the large flange in your install. If you'd like I can try them out lower and see what they do. What crossover point are you aiming for?

-Todd


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

HU is a cd7000, so i believe the options i had were 2500 or 3150. Not sure how well the hds will do over 3000 though, so its hard to say without being able to experiment. Amp is an x200.4 so i have plenty of power, and i was planning on putting them in the sail panels, likely off axis though.

btw thanks for the quick response


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

No problem!
Sounds like 2500 would hit the nail on the head then. Off axis I wouldn't want to go lower.

-Todd


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I just read through this build (supposed to be working, but couldn't peel my eyes away ). Very impressive in many ways! Thanks for sharing some of the 'why's' - very helpful. I really look forward to seeing pictures of these tweeter 'thingies'


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

The tweeter thingies... they are kind of difficult to explain, but basically imagine a hollow cone shape with a 1" base. 
To play with the idea, a good cone shape to start with would look like a spinner from a model airplane:








Cut a slice off of the side so that it looks sort of like a teepee. The hole should extend from the base all the way to the point in an upside-down "V". Put an inverted parabolic reflector (like the bottom side of a spoon) on top like a hat (belly down, diameter/perimeter level with the base of the cone). Smooth the junctions between the reflector and the cone. Sound does ugly things on sharp edges. Place the base of the cone over the diaphragm of a tweeter. In reality the reflector that covers around the back side of the cone does very little and could be eliminated. The part that is over the top of the hole in the cone plus 15-20 degrees on each side seems the most important.

The width of the opening correlates to the frequency of the highpass point. Lower the highpass, the wider the cut will need to be or it will sound "hollow" and "muffled". The height of the cone appears to relate to the horizontal dispersion of the sound. The taller the cone, the wider the dispersion pattern seems to be. In this case the height of the pattern on the glass. The parabolic reflector on the top helps with directionality controlling the depth front-to-rear on the glass. 

If you imagine the sound leaving this device was spray paint and the device was the nozzle on the can, you want a Krylon fan pattern more than a Rustoleum round pattern, so a 1" inner diameter X 1.25" tall cone and a 1/2" deep by 2" diameter reflector are a good place to start. And a decent reflector could be cut from the bottom of a soda can. Don't include the rim; you want a smooth transition to the edge.

This all assumes the tweeter is on-axis with the listener. The opening of the cone faces the glass. You'd be looking at the top of the reflector when mounted and it would completely obscure line of sight of the tweeter diaphragm.

It all worked pretty well. None of the listeners seemed to feel they were listening to a tweeter off-axis. It was noted that the tweeters lacked air, but that was equally the case before the reflector was added.

In all I'm pleased with the result, but have moved on. I have to say the departure taught me a LOT about how sound moves and reflects off of surfaces and will have an effect on future decisions of driver placement and positioning.


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Photos?

I've been playing with similar too..


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

I had the honor of judging this car for installation over the summer. I also got to listen to it before the front stage was changed. This by far is a true DIY work of art. You have done a lot of research and testing to make your vehicle something special. I wish everyone had the passion you put into your car.


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## mrstangerbanger (Jul 12, 2010)

Great build 

How do you like mounting the mids in the kicks ?

In my 95 mustang i was thinking of mounting my Focal Be 3 in the kicks and keeping my mid bass in the door.


i


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> The tweeter thingies... they are kind of difficult to explain, but basically imagine a hollow cone shape with a 1" base.
> To play with the idea, a good cone shape to start with would look like a spinner from a model airplane:
> 
> 
> ...


OK, you got my attention... Sub's 

Kelvin


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

IamMurph said:


> I had the honor of judging this car for installation over the summer. I also got to listen to it before the front stage was changed. This by far is a true DIY work of art. You have done a lot of research and testing to make your vehicle something special. I wish everyone had the passion you put into your car.


Thank you SO much! That really means a lot to me. I spent a ton of time working on the car this season and at one time or another changed everything about the car but the sub and the amps. I really learned a LOT from all of the competitors' and judges feedback, and it will definitely influence next years' build. I'm very happy you enjoyed the car this season and I know what's coming to the car will completely blow away what I have done to this point!

See you next season!
-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> OK, you got my attention... Sub's
> 
> Kelvin


I have been reticent in posting where I went towards the end of the season, but since I'm not heading to Finals (sniffle) I'll make an effort to post where my tweeters ended up and what the results were. I've been amazed at the number of people (competitors and judges) who knew my car from this thread. That worked both for and against me in the lanes as it was clear that my thorough documentation of the build led to expectations about how the car would sound. I definitely found that there was a distinct correlation between the level of detail that I went to in the build log and peoples perception of the car. Psycho-acoustics? Maybe, but the more people KNEW, the more their expectations changed. I found that the feedback I got was easy to correlate to a person's knowledge of my car. The less they knew and the more they listened, the more useful the feedback! Now that the season is behind me, it's time to bare all!

By the way, I really hate that this is the case, but I think it's human nature. As a result, next years build will be documented, but no to this degree. Some things will be held back until after Finals, not because I don't want to share or because I want to hide what I am doing, but because giving away too much information colors peoples' perception on what they think they hear. It really is better for them not to know until AFTER they listen. The result is always more heavily based on their listening and less on their eyes and past experience.

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

mrstangerbanger said:


> Great build
> 
> How do you like mounting the mids in the kicks ?
> 
> ...


Mids in the kicks. Wow, where to start?!

Damn the compromise. The L4 mid has LOTS of detail to it. I love the detail, but most of it lives on axis (obviously). Bringing the mid on axis from the kick means angling the driver up to the listener and in towards the cabin. This produces all kinds of wacky reflections that harm the image. Point them at the center of the vehicle and the wave interaction is reduced as well as the reflections off the glass. Center image focus becomes extremely well defined. Tonality suffers due to the axial difference of left versus right. The driver now sees the center console as a reflective/reverberant surface and harmonic nodes develop based on this distance. Add to that the waveguide effect of the underdash area and it quickly becomes difficult to choose your evils. 

This particular vehicle has airspace in a secondary chamber behind the kicks. This chamber vents into the rails. It is connected to the kickpanel airspace by a 1.5" diameter hole. Untreated, that airspace becomes a resonant chamber. Enlarging the hole changes the resonant frequency, but it still acts as a tuned chamber behind the mid. I had to completely backfill and seal that chamber off from the mid before I could clear up a SIGNIFICANT problem in the midrange. At the resonant frequency the driver would react to the change in airspace compliance and excursion would easily TRIPLE. :| Yeah, that's a problem. Consider your ENTIRE enclosure when creating a place for a driver in the kick!

Overall the result of the mid in the kick is pleasing. I wasn't willing to lose my A-pillar to a bulky mid up there, and I also wasn't willing to cut the dash and suffer a class change mid-season, so the kick was the obvious choice. Listening to the car, midrange detail is very nice, but microdetail suffers from the azimuth angle. Staging is very good and image focus is commendable. Female vocalists are solidly placed just below the rearview mirror, and male vocalists drop but stay above the dash surface. Overall I am very pleased with the result, but it is clearly a one-seat setup.

If I had the kicks to do yet again, I'd first mount the midbass in the floor. Yup. Doors are a pain in the ass and make horrible enclosures. You can't ever truly shut them up, so the best you can hope for is encasing the sound so it doesn't make it to the cabin. The crappy baffle created by the inner door panel will reduce your dynamics and create huge localization cues. Aiming the midbasses at each other creates all sorts of irreparable phasing and nodal problems and once that's set all you can do is try to patch them acoustically. Putting the midbasses in the floor increases the midbass detail and can do incredible things for tonality AND image. Wish I had come to that conclusion sooner.

-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Something to consider. From Wiki, but overall accurate information. Consider the statement about acceleration and gforces of a driver, Then consider the baffle you are mounting the driver to. Is it up to the task?



> Speaker cones or loudspeaker cones can be manufactured from various materials depending on driver implementation ( i.e. box design), desired frequency response for each driver, and cost.
> 
> Although the speaker cone is technically the cone shaped part, a cone is many times also referred to as the cone/surround assembly to include the outer suspension called the surround.
> 
> ...


-Todd


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I was thinking about your results in the 'scores for 2011' thread, and I wanted to look at your most recent updates to your build log, and found this one......not extremely recent  Anything changed since these last pages? Just curious......


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> The tweeter thingies... they are kind of difficult to explain, but basically imagine a hollow cone shape with a 1" base.
> To play with the idea, a good cone shape to start with would look like a spinner from a model airplane:
> 
> 
> ...


Would really like to see a pic of your project coz my english is not that good and I have a really hard time drawing it in my head :blush: 

Thanks, 
Kelvin


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

You realize this is from 2010 and I have moved on to a fully infinite baffle dash build, right? These things are all long gone...

Sorry!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

highly said:


> You realize this is from 2010 and I have moved on to a fully infinite baffle dash build, right? These things are all long gone...
> 
> Sorry!


Yeah I know... It's just that I was looking for new ideas for my tweets - then I remember your thread. 

Congrats BTW Sweeeet seeing a true DIYer doing well @ comps. WTG!!!!! 

Kelvin


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

so where are the pics of the IB dash build? 

Jay


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> so where are the pics of the IB dash build?
> 
> Jay


Now that Finals is over and scores are posted, I'll be creating a new build log for the car that had the second highest score at the event  I am still in shock that I won and am in a new state of shock seeing as how I outscored every car there except for Mark Eldridge. I never expected I would EVER build a car that could rival the likes of the Masters. It might take me a couple of days to come to grips with that, but I promise... a build log is coming!

-Todd


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

highly said:


> Now that Finals is over and scores are posted, I'll be creating a new build log for the car that had the second highest score at the event  I am still in shock that I won and am in a new state of shock seeing as how I outscored every car there except for Mark Eldridge. I never expected I would EVER build a car that could rival the likes of the Masters. It might take me a couple of days to come to grips with that, but I promise... a build log is coming!
> 
> -Todd


can't wait for that. I just checked this log out, nice work todd. I just got my self some L3's like we talked about for awhile, just to try em out, i got ahold of em cheapo, i ahve some L4SE's sititng in the backed ranks waiting for the project to start, as well as some L1R2's that are on their way to scott to be checked out. but the L3's are surprising drivers, the uhm..what would you call it, the band? idk the "band" is so extremley wide that it increased my stage width a good 5 inches, which seemed impressive to me for just a driver switch, i mean it also parcial to the fault that i crossed my tweeters over lower, in the 3850 range since i dont trust the very top end of these guys, and my SB neo's image so nice and play so low so effortlessly. sorry i got into a little rant their. can't wait to see your build log though todd! i'm sure it inspires


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

CONGRATS! and looking forward to that build thread


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