# Can A 2" Fullrange Replace A Tweeter?



## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

I've been giving a lot of thought lately to changing up something to see if I can get a better sound. My setup has been MIA (repairs, etc) for about a month now, but I'm getting the itch to try a bunch of stuff when I get it all back up and running in a week or so. My question is simple....can a 2" fullrange replace a tweeter in a 2-way and keep that top end 12-13kHz+?? I figure a 3" would likely struggle quite a bit up top and need a tweeter to complete the top end. 

My midbass speakers are low and up front in my doors, that are well deadened and sealed. I've been reading that frequencies below 200-300hz are phase dependent and above that are amplitude dependent. ALSO, I figure that if I can get around 400-500hz up to 20kHz from a 2" fullrange that will be on-axis it will sound much better than what I run right now. My cx62's run from 75-2.5kHz/24db, with the drivers side being about 60deg. off-axis and the passenger about 25-30deg off-axis. Is my thinking correct here? By doing this, wouldn't it bring the stage and vocals up even more?

If I'm missing some then fill me in, but here's what seems to be the most common and talked about 2"er's:

- Peerless 830983 
- Tang Band W2-835SL
- CDT ES-02 

Thanks!


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

It would depend on the speaker of course, but my HAT 3's and 4's can be run without a tweeter depending on how off axis you get. I believe APs 3's are very similar. Bing did an install last year I thing with those AP 3's


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

I have heard many systems with wideband drivers instead of tweeters. These systems were using the FR88, Tang Band bamboo, and Audible Physics drivers. In the majority of these systems the drivers were on-axis (or damn near) and i did not notice any missing sparkle compared to other 2way systems involving a tweeter. 
My own experiments (in my car with the Aura NS3) have shown that on axis keeps all of the highs but off axis the highs roll off pretty quickly. However the point of sound origin was deeeeeep on the hood when off axis.
Yes, a 2" can replace a tweeter and even some 3" drivers can as well.
I would add the Aura Whispers and this Vifa driver I have been contemplating Vifa NE65W, 2" Fullrange Driver, 4 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

That's why I wanted to stick with a 2" so I could build a pod or put them in the a-pillars and have them on-axis or very close to on-axis. I think a 3" might be too big up there for the my dash. 

I just feel like it can't be good to have vocals, etc coming from 60deg. off-axis near my ankles. I've got my TA set pretty well and it sounds like everything is coming from about 3-4" up the windshield, but I do have a slight rainbow effect. I'm sure I'll figure that out when I get going again.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I ran Dayton RS75-4 in pods on the dash for quite some time. No tweets and steeply crossed over from 300-600hz (I would vary at times for tuning). I can say they were quite pleasing and handled more than what you think they will. Still there is always a difference in the way a tweeter disperses that a small cone will not. Will you miss it? Not a whole lot. At times you couldn't tell a tweet was omitted, but if you want that last bit of sparkle I would still add in a small tweet.


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

I like these

Aurasound NSW2-326-8AT 2" Full Range: Madisound Speaker Store


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

You are prob gonna have to cross over higher then what you want to with a 2" mid. The FS is pretty high, so its not gonna get very loud or handle any amount of power. Look at the Wavecor 2.75", its FS is half of the 2" Vifa and is still small, so fitting in a pod wont be a problem. The highs on it are excellent, best I have heard from any fullranger, I have about 5 different ones I have been testing.


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks everyone



BeatsDownLow said:


> You are prob gonna have to cross over higher then what you want to with a 2" mid. The FS is pretty high, so its not gonna get very loud or handle any amount of power. Look at the Wavecor 2.75", its FS is half of the 2" Vifa and is still small, so fitting in a pod wont be a problem. The highs on it are excellent, best I have heard from any fullranger, I have about 5 different ones I have been testing.


I wasn't really set on that x-over, just using it as an example as it seems like most 3" and some 2" are crossed there. The vocal range starts around 200hz if I remember correctly so I figured getting 1 set of speakers to handle the vocals would be smoother and less likely to cause issues than having it cut down the middle. 

Not sure why I didn't think about this until now haha...but my Logitech z-2300 in front of me uses 2.5" full rangers from like 250hz +. Granted they're vented, but still. I don't feel like the top end is missing or anything and I'm sure the quality of these isn't near some of these 2" or 3" mids listed. I've looked into the F88x a few times, but I just think it might be too big to mount up there. I was going to do the PVC pipe thing and try them on axis first.


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

Beats...that drivers does have a crazy low FS. On the SPL/Freq. plot it looks like they top end goes up quite a bit, even 15deg off axis so I'm sure they sound just like a tweeter. I'm kinda new to really taking in and knowing what the graphs show (what's good, what's bad, etc), so is it bad that the speaker shows a peak at 90db @ 4khz and by 6kHz it's down 5db's?? Some of the other speakers have a much flatter response, but I'm not sure if it's "that" big of a deal.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

I am going through the same thing, 2" (specifically the Whisper) or a 3" . I just sat my 3" Tang Band driver on my dash to get an idea of sound and size, on-axis in my Accord. Here's a pic for reference:


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## ousooner2 (Jan 6, 2011)

Looks like you have quite a bit of room for that 3". The dash on the TL has a contour and makes it harder to fit something larger up there unless you cut into the a-pillar...and I've never worked with fiberglass. That CDT ES-02 seems like a nice speaker, but if the Peerless (or whichever one it was) is the exact same thing, then I might just try it for how cheap it is. 


This is my 1" xs28 tweeter


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

ousooner2 said:


> That CDT ES-02 seems like a nice speaker, but if the Peerless (or whichever one it was) is the exact same thing, then I might just try it for how cheap it is.


I know the skeptics on this site probably will doubt the validity of this statement, but I was told by Ken at CDT Audio that they spent over 3 years perfecting the ES-02. I have no proof but this isn't the only driver they've claimed to spend that much time developing.


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

Not to stomp on ur post OP. Yet Trumpet I was wonder'n if you have any pic's of your rebuild? I know that u are use'n these drivers (ES-02) . And would love to see and know how it's work'n for you.
Thx.




trumpet said:


> I know the skeptics on this site probably will doubt the validity of this statement, but I was told by Ken at CDT Audio that they spent over 3 years perfecting the ES-02. I have no proof but this isn't the only driver they've claimed to spend that much time developing.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

trumpet said:


> I know the skeptics on this site probably will doubt the validity of this statement, but I was told by Ken at CDT Audio that they spent over 3 years perfecting the ES-02. I have no proof but this isn't the only driver they've claimed to spend that much time developing.


There's at least a couple of Tang Band drivers with similar specs that's quite cheaper (for a pair) than the ES-02. Regardless of CDT's research, there's plenty on the diy market that falls within that category.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I switched from tweeters to FR-88EX's (200-250 Hz-Up) on the dash about 4 months ago. Running these with 7" door-mounted midbass (Seas CA18RNX), I instantly enjoyed what moving essentially all of the vocals above the dash did to my front stage. I did, however, lose a bit of the upper tweeter range (+12kHz).

At the time I made the switch, I had no EQ to help compensate for this loss of upper range. I have since added a Bit Ten D. At this point I don't see wanting to run tweeters again.

The FR-88EX's are actually way off-axis and firing directly upward at my windshield. With T/A and EQ now in place, it actually sounds great.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I use Audible Physics 3's in my pillars and get high marks for high frequencies in competition. You can definitely get away with no tweeter.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

I just noticed this Peerless/Vifa 2" driver, Vifa TC6FD00-04 2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer 4 Ohm 264-1126

*Specifications:* *Power handling: 15 watts RMS/30 watts max *VCdia: 3/4" *Le: 0.02 mH *Impedance: 4 ohms *Re: 3.5 ohms *Frequency response: 150-20,000 Hz *Fs: 175 Hz *SPL: 84.4 dB 2.83V/1m *Vas: 0.008 cu. ft. *Qms: 4.1 *Qes: 1.29 *Qts: 0.98 *Xmax: 1 mm *Dimensions: Outside diameter: 2.17" (2.56" diagonally ear-to-ear), Cutout diameter: 2.0", Depth: 1.33".


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

Shadowmarx said:


> Not to stomp on ur post OP. Yet Trumpet I was wonder'n if you have any pic's of your rebuild? I know that u are use'n these drivers (ES-02) . And would love to see and know how it's work'n for you.
> Thx.


Nah, I still have to put the dash back together. The car is driveable. I'll have it wrapped up in a few days. It's working out great. It makes me wish I'd had more faith in the idea of a tweeterless front stage earlier.


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

You have fun get'n out of those pods???
I like the sound out of the CDT wide range. Thx for take'n the time to speak with me about'em!!!
Keep me posted on ur install...



trumpet said:


> Nah, I still have to put the dash back together. The car is driveable. I'll have it wrapped up in a few days. It's working out great. It makes me wish I'd had more faith in the idea of a tweeterless front stage earlier.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

I have the pods like you can see in the AF-256/20 Accent Fill system on cdtstore.com. The pods were joined with a wedge shaped piece to form the Center Stage module. It will make more sense when I'm ready to take video and photos.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

ousooner2 said:


> Beats...that drivers does have a crazy low FS. On the SPL/Freq. plot it looks like they top end goes up quite a bit, even 15deg off axis so I'm sure they sound just like a tweeter. I'm kinda new to really taking in and knowing what the graphs show (what's good, what's bad, etc), so is it bad that the speaker shows a peak at 90db @ 4khz and by 6kHz it's down 5db's?? Some of the other speakers have a much flatter response, but I'm not sure if it's "that" big of a deal.


 I generally only used the graphs, when I was looking at fullrangers, so that I could compare the top end somewhat. What we are gonna achieve in the car wont be ruler flat anyways. As they are tested usually just like our klippel testing, open baffle with nothing to reflect off of. 

The midrange is beautiful on that wavecor, and the top end is the closest I have heard to a tweeter. + or - 3db from a reference zero will not be noticeable. Depending on the listener, maybe even more. I am gonna test mine out in small enclosures I am gonna make this weekend, hopefully atleast. I want to see how small I can go to help control excursion, but not mess up the band I will be running them in, which will be 250hz on up. Mine will be fired up off my dash at the windshield.


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

This > FR090WA01_02 Does look real nice....


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The Aurasound Whispers are quite nice drivers...really nice IMO. The only upgrade would be a Jordan JX6.


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## duane007 (Jun 10, 2009)

I purchased a pair of the TB 3" bamboo drivers and just last week finally got around to playing with them.

I built little boxes that I could place around the car. 
My initial plan was to try to incorporate them into the a-pillars, however, I could not get them to image right. Sure the sound stage was up, just like I was going for, but it was either left or right.

For ****s and giggles I dropped them down by the kick panels, pointed up and at an angle. The image was centered, and as high as when they were on the dash.

I've decided on custom kicks based on this experiment...


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