# .flac Audio Capable Head Units ?



## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

Are there any .flac capable head units on the market yet ? Hoping for a SINGLE DIN solution.

*<EDIT> ......*

Flac capable, via USB....say, feed it with a 32GB or 64GB Thumbdrive ?

*<EDIT again>......*

Not to be picky, BUT, I only run premium (high V+, low noise) head units (Premier, Excelon etc) and REFUSE to run a FUGLY Alpine.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

why would you need one that is .flac capable?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

To play flacs, duh. 

There are CarPCs... just sayin.


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

URAL CDD. 
I have a few- if you need one, lemme know.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> To play flacs, duh.
> 
> There are CarPCs... just sayin.


LOL but then why dont you burn/convert them and just put them on a regular CD? There are also iPod capable HUs


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

If you're going to go with something the size of a .flac file you may as well just dump it back into .wav or convert to cd. At something like 2:1 compression ratio there's not much of a benefit to keeping it in .flac format.


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

jbowers said:


> At something like 2:1 compression ratio there's not much of a benefit to keeping it in .flac format.


There sure is, if you are lazy, currently serve up over a terrabyte of .flac on your home network and would like to take some with you 32GB or 64GB at a time on a USB thumbdrive.

What I SHOULD have asked for was a *FLAC capable Head Unit via USB *


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Guy said:


> URAL CDD.
> I have a few- if you need one, lemme know.


I really did not need to know that..... 


Thinks....."They are gone Chad, there are no more, forget about them"


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

jbowers said:


> If you're going to go with something the size of a .flac file you may as well just dump it back into .wav or convert to cd. At something like 2:1 compression ratio there's not much of a benefit to keeping it in .flac format.


CDs? They still make those things?


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

chad said:


> I really did not need to know that.....
> 
> 
> Thinks....."They are gone Chad, there are no more, forget about them"


Well, at least now you know where they all went.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> CDs? They still make those things?


LOL, this was my thought exactly. And concernign CD's, life if boring as hell with 12 songs on a disk. And seeing as I have a Tb of really high quality format music, it sucks for me to have to covert them to V0 and putting them on a disk. Though, for all practical purposes, sounds fine enough. But it would be really awesome for .flac support. I am very interested in this thread and its results. My HU supports many format, but not flac. I guess at the time I got it, it was not popular.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Yep, with hard drives getting bigger, flac has really caught on. Which is cool, because if you told me 10 years ago that we'd be storing our entire 1000 cd music collections in lossless format, I'd have had to change my underwear.

I remember back before mp3 came out, and I had a couple of my most played CDs on the computer in wav format (probably on a 500MB disk), and I think maybe aiff...

*edit: optical is dead   * (well, we're getting there...)


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> CDs? They still make those things?


Those are the things you buy in the store, listen to in real time once.. and sit on a shelf


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

So I'm not the only one who thinks being able to copy 64GB of flac tunes onto a USB thumbdrive to take on the road, rather than taking 100 CDs is a decent idea ?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

chad said:


> Those are the things you buy in the store, listen to in real time once.. and sit on a shelf


Haha I don't even go that far anymore. Now I buy the vinyl and download the digital. Bought one a few months ago that was the CD & vinyl together... I don't even know where the hell the CD is now. Attic I think. Sitting between size 8 ice skates from when I was 10 years old and clothes that will only fit me again if I catch some sort of disease.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

.flac came to me with Linux. FWIW you can Rockbox an eye-pod (hotlink avoidance) to run .flac. 5.5G and under.. They are cheap used and IMHO loads better than the new ones. I feel the 5G and 5.5G ipods are still the rulers. Sizable drives, awesome wheel (I hate the new "classic wheel" and they had the good **** inside in terms of DA/etc.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

Allan74 said:


> So I'm not the only one who thinks being able to copy 64GB of flac tunes onto a USB thumbdrive to take on the road, rather than taking 100 CDs is a decent idea ?


LMAO! No, your not (be it a HDD, iPOSpod, flash drive, etc. . ). 

In fact, if you are not doing this, then you are likely VERY behind in times. I mean, sure, you can always convert all your flacs to wav or what not, but way too many cds, etc. .. . life is just so much easy with so many more options, making it tons more efficient if you can just go the other route. And to be fair about it, 97% of people CAN NOT (in blind sound testing) even identify the difference between a high bitrate V0 and flac anyways. So, though it would be nice, it's not exactly necessary as much as it is just a desire.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Nicks84 said:


> And to be fair about it, 97% of people CAN NOT (in blind sound testing) even identify the difference between a high bitrate V0 and flac anyways.


This is why I keep everything in V0. Tends to be something like a 4:1 compression ratio between it and flac. If I lost everything though, and had to put it all together again, I'd probably do flac.


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

Now I'm really puzzled......



> Phat noise will support flac file and the *Ken x890 *does too.


Head Unit USB to USB HD

I currently own this deck, but have never came across FLAC confirmation before, as I have tried the USB on occasion, but found it to be slow, so I stuck to CDs.....granted, I have owned this deck for over a few years, but only have about a week or so use on it thanks to a car accident.....then it sat in a box for al this time.

Looks like I have some testing to do.


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## pat_smith1969 (Feb 17, 2010)

I recently went through this same thought process. I like Lossless flac format. Long ago I converted my hundreds of CDs to flac. Then found that I couldn't play them on my ipod, and therefore I was unable to play them in my car (where I listen to MOST of my music).

I have TWO solutions for you...

1. Media Monkey
Media Monkey will manage all your flac files as well as ANY other file formats you want (music of course). It is GREAT to manage your tags. 

The BEST feature about it however is, you can tell it that whenever you sync a device (ipod in my case but it will also do other devices) it will, on the fly, convert your flacs to whatever MP3 format you want. So you can have flac at home and mp3 on the road without keeping two repositories.

2. Convert all your songs to m4a which is apple's lossless format. it is still lossless but now you can use itunes to sync it to your i-device. 

Other than a carPC these are your two best options.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

pat_smith1969 said:


> I recently went through this same thought process. I like Lossless flac format. Long ago I converted my hundreds of CDs to flac. Then found that I couldn't play them on my ipod, and therefore I was unable to play them in my car (where I listen to MOST of my music).
> 
> Other than a carPC these are your two best options.


Ya, lol, that sucks. I am thinking that carputer is likely the best answer for now. And as much as I hate to admit, it will be some time before the industry catches up with this and decent HU are released.  Because although you can currently find decks that support this, makes you wonder if they are any good. I'm sure it will be a while before a high quality multiple formate HU is released


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

Well, although not ideal, I do still have a set of analog RCA inputs on my Kenwood and can simply feed it using a FLAC capable portable/handheld in some situations.
FLAC - links

Again, not ideal, but it's something.


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

Problem solved.....

CAR Mp5, MP3 PLAYER WITH AM/FM RADIO - eBay (item 260619031326 end time Jul-05-10 16:21:56 PDT)

I will just run the outputs from this unit into the AUX inputs of my Excelon head unit and call it a day.

I have wasted far more money on far less, so I figured I might as well give this one a try.


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

Here is the manufacturer from the look of it.....

Kinwei Technologies(Shenzhen)Co.,Ltd.

I will keep my fingers crossed and let everyone know how well my $100 investment works out once it arrives.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Time to throw a wrench at the monkey. 

Has anyone ever checked to see if the USB to headunit conversion stays in the digital domain all the way to the DSP? Might they be taking the analog output from the USB transiever chip's built in DAC thus treating the USB digital input as an additional analog source? Instead of taking the digital i2s from it and sending it to the DSP directly.


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## Allan74 (Jun 17, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Time to throw a wrench at the monkey.
> 
> Has anyone ever checked to see if the USB to headunit conversion stays in the digital domain all the way to the DSP? Might they be taking the analog output from the USB transiever chip's built in DAC thus treating the USB digital input as an additional analog source? Instead of taking the digital i2s from it and sending it to the DSP directly.


I don't know, but I am sure it may depend on the HU.


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

Guy said:


> URAL CDD.
> I have a few- if you need one, lemme know.


Would you happen to have (and sell) a spare fascia? Just the plastics, not the screen itself.


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

n_olympios said:


> Would you happen to have (and sell) a spare fascia? Just the plastics, not the screen itself.


All my units are complete.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

i ve been looking for one as well.

it seems that the problem is.
the car audio companies are beeing big p***ies and dont want to invest money in r&d to add flac support.

pioneers excuse was that flac requires more processing power etc.
and i suspect i apple got them by the balls with a contract not to support flac while they make ipod capable units.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

it makes no sense why companies would choose WAV over such widely supported codec as flac.

wav doesnt have a capability to store ID tag how is that good for backing up a whole collection of cds without the ability to store all the information about songs.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

fuzzysig said:


> it makes no sense why companies would choose WAV over such widely supported codec as flac.
> 
> wav doesnt have a capability to store ID tag how is that good for backing up a whole collection of cds without the ability to store all the information about songs.


I think its an issue of being cheap, and the fact that the companies making radios are just simply NOT intune with what is going on today. Remember, it was just a short time ago when mp3's were magic. How long after the introduction of that were they actually in car radios ? Way too long.

And Flac IMHO is just now getting popular because of increased bandwidth of cable providers and super cheap HDD space. Otherwise, flac would not be near as popular. Infact, its not even exactly popular (only amongst the music elites). But it will catch on as people come closer intune with todays requirements. And the first few decent cd players that come out and support flac, will make a killing !


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

If you don't mind converting to apple lossless then you can do this with Sony head units. Current Sony head units transfer audio digitally from ipod to the head unit. That is why you can use any ipod usb wire on a Sony deck and other brands require proprietary cables.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

i dont know why people keep suggesting ALAC and ipod.

this is about flac support not converting to other formats.

many people already aware of lossless ipod option.

this is the alternative would be to people that dont want to use ipod. because it would be much easier.

drag and drop from windows... is there easier than that?

every other field already up to date, home, portable, PC. pretty much everyone except car audio already supprts flac.

car audio is always like a fat kid dragging behind everyobe sweating.

look how long it took to get MP3 ipod and USB capability into car audio.

they always complain that theres no market for the supported features. well **** if you wait long enough then flac will be outdated just like MP3 and of course there wont be any market for it.


MP3 capability came out to home and portable
by the time car audio woke up and started producing MP3 units people already moved on to ipods.
by the time car audio woke up and introduced ipod hookup alot of people were already looking forward to USB option.
3-4 years later they are finally catching up to therest. maybe.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

^ + 1


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

nubz69 said:


> If you don't mind converting to apple lossless then you can do this with Sony head units. Current Sony head units transfer audio digitally from ipod to the head unit. That is why you can use any ipod usb wire on a Sony deck and other brands require proprietary cables.


I personally MIND it.. for one it seems wasteful to buy an ipod to be used effectively as a storage device for music for a head unit or HI-FI system. That's what it is. Many HI Fi systems can even bypass iPod's DAC. A USB stick can be a storage device for 1/10th of the cost. Next, I can't stand Apple "control freak" attitude towards its closed formats, app stores, operating systems, and phones. I'd rather not send them my dollars as long as they continue current practices. I don't understand how other electronics manufacturers have allowed Apple to effectively get a monopoly on mp3 player interface with other devices. Be it a home HIFI system or a car, the best you can expect is iPod/iPhone compatibility. WHY??? Couldn't companies like Sony and Alpine get together and develop a common interface for ALL media players, like 10 years ago? I was pondering this question exactly 10 years ago. But today, nothing has changed! Ughh! Perpahs that's the reason that only people old enough to have used Walkmans still know what "Walkman" means today. Sony allowed itself to be left in dust by Apple without putting up a fight. It's kind of sad to see Sony's devices to have compatibility with iPod features but not with Walkmans.


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## kennyg (Jun 23, 2007)

I'd be ecstatic if there was something that read .flac's. I had to convert most of my .flac's (I still kept them in another folder for safe-keeping) to .wav's to play on my Pioneer via a 250gig hdd.


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## FSUnoles (Apr 29, 2007)

i usually convert all my flacs to .wav and send them to my ipod?

should i do that or should i be going apples lossless? any quality difference


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

here's the problem. Unless you want to run an external DAC, if you run lossless, whether it be Microsofts, apples, or any others, you are going to use the DACs onboard the IPOD/MP3 player. 

If you have a nice deck like a CD7200/p99/p800/p880/9887/etc. you can often bypass the DACs on the IPOD/MP3 using the USB port and a converter cable. The problem is if you go USB none of the decks, including the p99, will support anything over 320. 

So you have really two choices, run an MP3 player/IPOD on a lossless format, let the IPOD convert it to analog on it's crappy DACs and run it into the back of your deck via accessory input with RCA or......

Convert everything you have to either aac, wav or mp3 and limit it to 320 and run it through the USB port with appropriate cable.

The third way, which would be more expensive, but may be the cleanest solution is to run the IPOD/MP3/hard drive/flash drive lossless into an external DAC and then into the acc input of the deck. That way you get lossless (though not FLAC cuz none of the head units recognize it, you are stuck with WAV, AAC or MP3) AND really good DAC's.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I have been trying to buy a head unit that will utilize an external digital source (IPOD, Cowon, Flash drive, Droid X, Iphone, hard drive, etc) AND use the high end DACs built into the deck that I buy AND maybe still be able to use the source to control the music and I am having NO luck at all.


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

Edit:

Just found out the CD7200 AND the 9887 don't have DAC bypass, what a dissapointment. To make matters worse, if you go USB you will limited to 320 bits. So, no FLAC, no lossless, nothing more than 320 bits through USB and if you go AUX input or USB you will be using the IPOD/MP3 DAC. Man, does this suck, you wouldn't think it would be this tough.

Maybe I should look at the cowon, I have heard they are good units, maybe their DACs are decent......


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## brocken (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm struggling with how to play my music on my HU too.
I currently have a first gen ipod touch that I've had for years. Never really worried about the internal DAC's as most stereos I've used have bypassed it... however, the Kenwood I have now doesn't...
I do like how nice the controller interface is with album art and all of that. But debating if I should get a USB flash drive for all my media and figure a way to organize it right

I would think you'd notice more of a difference skipping the iPod's DAC than going from a high bit rate MP3/wav to lossless flac. That's just my uneducated guess though.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

can someone confirm that new sony headunits in fact use MP3 player's DAC and receive the uncompressed PCM wav file?
i ve seen it somewhere but cant remember.



one way to do it is to get a deck with toslink input.
and a PS3 or any other media player that supports flac and has a toslink output.
only problem is you need to control it separately.

this is really stupid.
it seems like its done on purpose for one reason or another.
i suspect that apple had something to do with it in order to control the market.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Lance_S said:


> The third way, which would be more expensive, but may be the cleanest solution is to run the IPOD/MP3/hard drive/flash drive lossless into an external DAC and *then into the acc input of the deck.* That way you get lossless (though not FLAC cuz none of the head units recognize it, you are stuck with WAV, AAC or MP3) AND really good DAC's.


You still have the other half of the same problem. The headunit's AUX input still uses an Analog to Digital Conveter (ADC) to convert the incoming analog signal to digital so it can be processed in the head unit's Digital Signal Processor. It's the same process as the iPod DAC only in reverse. 




Lance_S said:


> Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I have been trying to buy a head unit that will utilize an external digital source (IPOD, Cowon, Flash drive, Droid X, Iphone, hard drive, etc) AND use the high end DACs built into the deck that I buy AND maybe still be able to use the source to control the music and I am having NO luck at all.


Doesn't the new Pioneer P99 have iPod USB input that can navigate the pod and play Apple lossless?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

FSUnoles said:


> i usually convert all my flacs to .wav and send them to my ipod?
> 
> should i do that or should i be going apples lossless? any quality difference


Only differance is that your files will be smaller and you will have a file tagging system that is more compatible then what you can do with WAV. Not such a bad trade off huh.


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

t3sn4f2 said:


> You still have the other half of the same problem. The headunit's AUX input still uses an Analog to Digital Conveter (ADC) to convert the incoming analog signal to digital so it can be processed in the head unit's Digital Signal Processor. It's the same process as the iPod DAC only in reverse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, believe it or not. I pulled the manual and it clearly states, no apple lossless support. You would think for $1200.00 it would do your laundry. Lossless should be a no brainer.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Lance_S said:


> No, believe it or not. I pulled the manual and it clearly states, no apple lossless support. You would think for $1200.00 it would do your laundry. Lossless should be a no brainer.


Does it do any uncompressed format, at least? If it does WAV, can it tag the way that iTunes is able to tag WAV (assuming there is an iDevice connected).


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## ndgranberry (Mar 9, 2011)

like your system


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## ndgranberry (Mar 9, 2011)

MP3 always is a downgrade from AAC seems to me.


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## thgem72 (Sep 29, 2010)

From my read of the p99 manual the only lossless input is WAV (16 bit 48 Khz). So (if correct) this is lossless, however it is restricted to WAV (but is better that 320). Also, from what I've read, you can't control direct from the iPod but you can (control the iPod) from the HU. Anyone more knowledgeable please weigh in.


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

WAV is lossless, but is also the same format you find in a normal audio cd, hence the same size. Flac on the other hand, contains the same amount of audio info (aka lossless) but with smaller file sizes, meaning you can get more songs in a medium of certain capacity, be it an external HDD or USB flash disk or portable player. Also, WAV doesn't contain TAG info. 

Indeed, when the iPod is connected to the (any) HU, you can only control it through the HU, the screen and buttons on the iPod "freeze".


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## Resonant (Mar 20, 2011)

I have also been looking for HU that support flac, its kind of a pain burning all this stuff to cds


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Anyone get any further with this?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

jbowers said:


> If you're going to go with something the size of a .flac file you may as well just dump it back into .wav or convert to cd. At something like 2:1 compression ratio there's not much of a benefit to keeping it in .flac format.



You can significantly reduce the size of a FLAC album if it's compressed to Level 8.....and it's a good deal smaller than a full album....about 1/3 the size.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

fuzzysig said:


> it makes no sense why companies would choose WAV over such widely supported codec as flac.
> 
> wav doesnt have a capability to store ID tag how is that good for backing up a whole collection of cds without the ability to store all the information about songs.


It's not a matter of them choosing WAV.....Cd's have used WAV for 25 years now.

It's a matter of not adopting FLAC because it isn't as widely used as Mp3 or ACC.

As screwed up as it sounds if the audio companies believe that a format doesn't have enough mass appeal they won't incorporate it into their products unless alot of people demand it.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

Yeah, you have great points GlasSman. But I can't stress enough that the lack of demand is simply people that are likely behind on the times. Flac, popular or not, is smaller than .wave with the same quality. What's not to like? And with HDD space as cheap as it is (or was a short time ago), peoples HDD are loaded with everything other than .wav. I have hundres of Gb of .flac files, and not the same equivalent in CDs. And forgive me if my math is wrong, but is 2:1 not translate into more music on the same amount of space? 

In my generation, though .mp3 is super common, most music enthusiast use flac (for many reasons) vs the former.  And yes, one could argue all effin day whethere there is an audible difference or not. Abx it yourself. I can tell a difference with great accuracy.

In anycase, it should be more in demand, IMHO. Flac is much more acessible than your standard .wav files. You can DL flac all day long for free just about anywhere. Good luck finding a site that has tons of .wave files. And anyone buying cd's these days. . .. well, that'sjust funny to me, but anyways. Sadly, I agree very much with you that it's more about mass apeal. Out with the old and in with the new. 

Unfortunately, by the time demand gets high enough for flac to be common like mp3, the more advanced group of society will have all ready moved on to the next best thing, consequently falling into the same trap. Hell, mp3 players in cars just became standard not too too long ago. (and in some cases are still not)


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Nicks84 said:


> In my generation, though .mp3 is super common, most music enthusiast use flac (for many reasons) vs the former. And yes, one could argue all effin day whethere there is an audible difference or not. Abx it yourself. I can tell a difference with great accuracy.


I'm interested in this issue. If I PM you my email address, could you send me a copy of an mp3 and flac that you can tell the difference between? I haven't been able to yet. I'd like to figure out what features of the music make it easier to tell file formats apart.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'm interested in this issue. If I PM you my email address, could you send me a copy of an mp3 and flac that you can tell the difference between? I haven't been able to yet. I'd like to figure out what features of the music make it easier to tell file formats apart.


I've not AB'd them, but can spot the difference between MP3s and CDs-most of the give aways are in the bass and trebble. Bass you lose harmonics and trebble becomes more artificial sounding-at least that is what I have noticed.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Some JVC units support flac

JVC KW-NT700 Navigation receiver at Crutchfield.com

This one does


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

oh snaps. im trolling the JVC page for signs of flac support.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Compatible Media Files: The head unit supports audio and video playback from USB mass storage class devices and SD/SDHC memory cards formatted in FAT 12/16/32. The KW-NT700 can recognize a total of 9,999 folders with a maximum of 999 files per folder (per USB device or SD card).

Music Files: The KW-NT700 supports AAC (bitrate: 32-320 kbps), MP3 (bitrate: 32-320 kbps), WMA (bitrate: 32-320 kbps), WAV (bitrate: 16 bit),* FLAC (bitrate: 16 bit) audio files stored on a USB msc device or SD/SDHC memory card. *The KW-NT700 can also display ID3 Tags (ver. 1.0/1.1/2.2/2.3/2.4) for MP3 files, as well as WAV/WMA Tag information and iTunes m4a metadata.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

The Baron Groog said:


> I've not AB'd them, but can spot the difference between MP3s and CDs-most of the give aways are in the bass and trebble. Bass you lose harmonics and trebble becomes more artificial sounding-at least that is what I have noticed.







Try it out, come back and tell us about it, and we'll go from there.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Try it out, come back and tell us about it, and we'll go from there.


Will be tricky atm-my home PC seems to have died overnight-powers up but doesn't trigger the monitor to turn on-has flashed up errors with the graphics card for last few months so I guess it's had it


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

tyroneshoes said:


> Compatible Media Files: The head unit supports audio and video playback from USB mass storage class devices and SD/SDHC memory cards formatted in FAT 12/16/32. The KW-NT700 can recognize a total of 9,999 folders with a maximum of 999 files per folder (per USB device or SD card).
> 
> Music Files: The KW-NT700 supports AAC (bitrate: 32-320 kbps), MP3 (bitrate: 32-320 kbps), WMA (bitrate: 32-320 kbps), WAV (bitrate: 16 bit),* FLAC (bitrate: 16 bit) audio files stored on a USB msc device or SD/SDHC memory card. *The KW-NT700 can also display ID3 Tags (ver. 1.0/1.1/2.2/2.3/2.4) for MP3 files, as well as WAV/WMA Tag information and iTunes m4a metadata.


Nice find-shame they don't do this or an equivalent model in the UK


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

I have been using an Audison BitPlayHD media center with a 2TB drive in my car lately and it has been a great upgrade over CDs. It will hit the market soon and will solve a lot of problems for people searching for the best in SQ. 24bit/96k from the drive to the amps.

Soon there will be several head units capable of playing flac files, but why not actually be able to enjoy them in the car like you do at home? A flac file converted by a cheap head unit is simply a convenience, those files should be an experience.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Great product idea there-any idea what the RRP will be?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

dobslob said:


> I have been using an Audison BitPlayHD media center with a 2TB drive in my car lately and it has been a great upgrade over CDs. It will hit the market soon and will solve a lot of problems for people searching for the best in SQ. 24bit/96k from the drive to the amps.
> 
> Soon there will be several head units capable of playing flac files, but why not actually be able to enjoy them in the car like you do at home? A flac file converted by a cheap head unit is simply a convenience, those files should be an experience.


How can a high resolution capable player make it possible for a processor not to down-sample and thus remove all the claimed advantages of that high resolution file. I mean they all runs at 48kHz. The file would end up at the processor's DSP input looking hardly no different (ie 4kHz greater sampling precision) than it does from the studio CD version where it is down-sampled for the final release to CD.

I see the bitplayhd as an excellent car audio media player, with great integration and navigation features. As well as being very OEM friendly. But as for SQ alone, there are plenty of other much more affordable options out there is you are willing to live without the above perks.


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## Joe_Fonebone (May 29, 2012)

dobslob said:


> I have been using an Audison BitPlayHD media center with a 2TB drive in my car lately and it has been a great upgrade over CDs. It will hit the market soon and will solve a lot of problems for people searching for the best in SQ. 24bit/96k from the drive to the amps.
> 
> Soon there will be several head units capable of playing flac files, but why not actually be able to enjoy them in the car like you do at home? A flac file converted by a cheap head unit is simply a convenience, those files should be an experience.


Thanks for the great info. The only head units that I know of that can play FLAC are the KW-NT800HDT (and family). I was thinking of getting one, solely because of the FLAC capability, and connecting it to an Alpine PXA-H800. Any thoughts?

As for the BitPlayHD media center, which sounds like a better solution, I'm assuming that a separate PC wont be needed and that will run some kind of server software and connect via USB to a hard drive. Is that correct? How do you control it (select music, etc.)? Where can I see info? Thanks again.


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## Nicks84 (Jun 30, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'm interested in this issue. If I PM you my email address, could you send me a copy of an mp3 and flac that you can tell the difference between? I haven't been able to yet. I'd like to figure out what features of the music make it easier to tell file formats apart.


Yes, MarkZ, I can and will totally do that. And to make the most difficult fool proof test for anyspoofs out there, the song will be ripped using EAX, and the mp3 will be made from the .flac (made fromt the cd), and not to random files of the song in differing formats.

Though I just did a fresh install and have little to no programs on my pc atm, but when I do, I'll bump or pm you.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Nicks84 said:


> Yes, MarkZ, I can and will totally do that. And to make the most difficult fool proof test for anyspoofs out there, the song will be ripped using EAX, and the mp3 will be made from the .flac (made fromt the cd), and not to random files of the song in differing formats.
> 
> Though I just did a fresh install and have little to no programs on my pc atm, but when I do, I'll bump or pm you.


Now don't go transcoding to 64k and back to 320k now.....shame shame


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Nicks84 said:


> Yes, MarkZ, I can and will totally do that. And to make the most difficult fool proof test for anyspoofs out there, the song will be ripped using EAX, and the mp3 will be made from the .flac (made fromt the cd), and not to random files of the song in differing formats.
> 
> Though I just did a fresh install and have little to no programs on my pc atm, but when I do, I'll bump or pm you.


Cool, I'll be looking forward to it.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

all you MP3 defenders.. i dont know how you missed it but its not only about quality of flac. its the fact that i have ALL 100s of my cds backed up in flac and tonns more music that is encded in flac.

if i convert it to MP3 i loose the cd quality. if i convert it to WAV i loose the idtag data and all the extra info about the abums...


its not only about quality so stop bringing up same stupid argument about "hearing the difference" if you cant hear the difference then you are lucky because you should care less if its a 96bit encoded mp3 or 320 bit...
i personally can hear the difference, but know few people that cant (or dont care) for the difference between a 5 dollar tape player and SACD they just care that it makes sounds..


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

For those of you who can hear the difference, I invite you to send me two files (or pieces of files) that you can hear the difference between. My goal is to try to understand what properties of the music or the encode give rise to this difference, and I will perform various analyses on them to try to uncover what these properties are.

Obviously, you guys have to realize that it's useless to say "I can hear a difference" or "I can't hear a difference" without providing some sort of description about where the differences lie. Which makes these sorts of debates completely worthless. Just by saying you can or can't hear a difference provides literally zero information to the community.

If you're interested in contributing, shoot me a PM and I'll give you my email address.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I heard Pirate Audioworks is coming out with a FLAC head unit. :wacko:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

fuzzysig said:


> all you MP3 defenders.. i dont know how you missed it but its not only about quality of flac. its the fact that i have ALL 100s of my cds backed up in flac and tonns more music that is encded in flac.
> 
> if i convert it to MP3 i loose the cd quality. if i convert it to WAV i loose the idtag data and all the extra info about the abums...


Before you went on the quality soapbox your argument above made PERFECT sense....


This is why. No matter what you do, in order to keep a lossless archive, which you have now, you lose space. So you convert everything to a high quality MP3 format, which is not SMALL by any means when you are talking about a ****load of music. Now you are managing a FLAC database AND a MP3 database. Not fun, takes up space.

It only makes sense to stay with the format that you are using currently and is working well for you.

So in reality you have to tell everyone this. "I use FLAC, it works well for me, my whole collection is FLAC.... Piss off"


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Try it out, come back and tell us about it, and we'll go from there.


Tried it out, hooked up some uber cheap pc speakers to my work desk top.

I can't spot any difference between those tracks-though wouldn't imagine I would with such a simple piece of music. Also I doubt these pony speakers would reveal much, other than their cheapness! 

The biggest differences I have noted have been on far more complex tracks, a simple guitar piece with nothing else going on isn't going to reveal any differences between formats.

Have a look at the bit rates of the Focal Demo Disc tracks, I don't have itunes to hand atm, but you should notice that the more complex tracks have a much higher bit rate than the more simple ones.

Try doing the same with a piece with more going on, The Prodigy's Fat of the Land album would be a good one to try, loads of bass and trebble, lots of layers and depth to the music.

IDK much about youtube's quality, but was playing some 20Hz test tones off it running in a Dyn sub I picked up the other day and noticed this comment:

"No offense but youtube videos are encoded in 128 kbps mp3 to conserve space which limits the lowest frequency to 20 hertz. So the frequencies in this videos from 2-19 are actually rounded to 20 hertz.﻿"*

So would have to say that evaluating the difference bwteen two music formats on something that will top out at 128kbps would be a waste of time anyway.

*the poster's reply to the comment was this:
"No they are not.﻿ I just used triangular waves on accident instead of sine waves. 2-19 hz are still 2-19 hz, but they are just triangular waves."


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

The Baron Groog said:


> Tried it out, hooked up some uber cheap pc speakers to my work desk top.
> 
> I can't spot any difference between those tracks-though wouldn't imagine I would with such a simple piece of music. Also I doubt these pony speakers would reveal much, other than their cheapness!
> 
> ...


Sorry maybe I wasn't clear. The purpose of the video was for you to install the software and conduct the blind testing yourself with your music. The video is an instruction manual of sorts for the Foobar2000 ABX plugin. You can download it from their site and copy the .dll file to the "component" directory of the Foobar root dir. Then just follow the video to familarize yourself with it.

But at the end of the day, like you mention, your speaker and system has to be of high enough quality that does not vial any potential differences.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Ah, cool.


I'll post results if I get time to try it-just picked up some Grado SR80i so can bin off the PC speakers and try on some decent cans


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

update.
got my hands on the JVC indash. finally able to unload the albums in wav that took up almost 15 gigs of my 32gb thumbdrive and load about 10 times more music on it in flac format..

dont expect much from the internal amp its actually pretty pathetic. clips at about half volume.
and i havent hooked up my amps yet so cant comment on quality
pros:
very quick especially compared to pioneer avic x910 
startup time is less than 10 seconds usually(avic startup time is around 5 minutes fn POS)

UI is pretty sharp and also quick going from menu to menu
good quality screen
lots of sound settings 
lots of supported formats
and some other stuff


and theres no need to beat the dead horse.
alot of articles already explain what MP3 compression takes out.

honestly if people didnt hear the difference between lossless and 320 format then all records would be in 320 mp3 format.

just like the minimum refresh rate of 60 hz and the 27frames per minute movies.

why would we pack 100 FPS when we wont even nottice the difference


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## bllantto (Jan 14, 2013)

Kenwood announced the first flac digital media player at CES 2013 this year. It is KMM-100u. The manual is available to download on kenwood's site; looks promising minus the fact it only has one set of preouts so an eq or crossover will be required. 24 bit dac and 105db signal to noise and iphone / Pandora capable. No extra navigation or other expesive add ons. Should be fairly cheap when released. I will have one ordered the same hour it is released.



http://www.kenwoodusa.com/UserFiles/File/UnitedStates/Consumer/Catalogs/Kenwood_2013.pdf

http://www.kenwoodusa.com/UserFiles/File/UnitedStates/Consumer/Manuals/kmm100U.pdf


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## Nichodemus (Jan 27, 2011)

I am pretty sure all of the 2013 kenwood Excelon units will be using a renesas usb chipset that supports flac this year.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Nichodemus said:


> I am pretty sure all of the 2013 kenwood Excelon units will be using a renesas usb chipset that supports flac this year.


Would be great if that was true but as per their catalog, for 2013, only 1 HU will be able to play .flac files: the KMM-100U 

Kelvin


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## Nichodemus (Jan 27, 2011)

edit- Just rechecked my sources and yep , you are right. The only one that officially supports it is the kmm-100u, which would suck considering it only has one 2.5v pre-out. I will try out some .flac files once I get the excelon lines in my hands in March.


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

OK, this thread is pretty old and we all know things happen rather quickly in the world of mobile audio so... 

Are there any other head units available now that support FLAC? I will obviously be searching on my own but came across this thread in a search here so I thought I should bring it back to life. 

I am currently converting my approximately 150 CD collection to FLAC and I am hoping to store it on a USB thumb drive to play in my car. IF I can get an aftermarket deck that supports FLAC that is. 

So, anyone know of any that have come out in the last few months?


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## Jaloosk (Jan 13, 2010)

I'd be interested in one too...


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## dareo (Dec 17, 2010)

I only know of the KMM-100U so far. I put one in my truck just for FLAC. Its a cheap deck for sure but actually works pretty good and sounds clean. Its annoying that it has no rear usb, no SD card slot behind face plate, just that one front USB.

I'd love to get something high end with all the goodies someday. One that will straight up dock an SSD behind the face would be great.


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## Jaloosk (Jan 13, 2010)

dareo said:


> *One that will straight up dock an SSD behind the face would be great.*


Now _THAT_ would be straight-up awesomesauce. One can only dream...


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

mires said:


> I am currently converting my approximately 150 CD collection to FLAC and I am hoping to store it on a USB thumb drive to play in my car. IF I can get an aftermarket deck that supports FLAC that is.


Just a pointer for you and potentially others too. If you are planning on ripping your cd collection and have no intention of using those rips elsewhere other than in the car, then it might be a wiser choice (for now) to use ALAC, Apple's equivalent to flac. Due to iPod compatibility, most all HU's can play ALAC and since it too is lossless, there is no obvious difference in quality (obviously). Also, it is similar in size. 

You can do the ripping/coding/playback in software other than iTunes, so you don't need that awful piece of code making your pc struggle. 

Let it be noted that I hate ALAC, but considering the options out there (or lack of) regarding flac, this might be a more sensible route. Again, let me say, for now.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

I just installed the AMAS board into my Mosconi 6to8 Processor. It allows bluetooth streaming of high res (flac, etc) files directly into the processor. I am using goldenear on my iphone and streaming the files. So far it seems to work really well..... (just putting that out there as another option to play flac files). 

Something that let me plug in a 1TB external drive and quickly access the files would be AWESOME, though!


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

Once flac head units become common, we will start running into a different kind of problem: the storage. How much does it take to store a typical CD in flac format? 200-300 megabytes? The problem with this is that a lot of head units supposed only FAT32 file system which supports only up to 32GB of space. There are tools to create larger FAT32 partitions, but in my experience some head units get fooled with media partitioned this way.


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## womble (Oct 26, 2012)

dareo said:


> I only know of the KMM-100U so far. I put one in my truck just for FLAC. Its a cheap deck for sure but actually works pretty good and sounds clean. Its annoying that it has no rear usb, no SD card slot behind face plate, *just that one front USB*.


I was just looking at the Kenwood (the UK/Euro version - KMM-257) - for front USB, I think one of these really tiny USB keys might do the trick nicely?

Kingston 64GB Micro USB 2.0 DataTraveler DTMCK/64GB

I figure its not quite flush, but its unobtrusive enough that I can live with it.

I'm not doing much with the stereo in this car, just making it work well enough (26 year old front speakers had no foam lol), so the single set of RCA pre-outs on the kenwood isn't a problem, and its nice and cheap!


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

I have decided on the JVC KW-NT800HDT. It has everything I could ask for in a deck. 

Double Din
DVD
Nav
Hands-Free

And most importantly 

FLAC capable via USB 
24 bit D/A converter
Front/rear/sub preamp outputs
Front/rear/sub crossovers - slope up to 24 db
13 band EQ
Time Alignment

Here is a fairly in depth video of it if anyone is interested. The UI looks excellent and seems to be very fast too. The video sealed the deal for me. Now I have to get to selling stuff and finish ripping all my cd's to FLAC 

Detailed JVC 7" DVD GPS Reciever KW-NT800HDT Review - Also Cover KW-NT500HDT - YouTube


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

I have a 64gb thumb drive with jvc indash loaded with flac.

ALAC is supported by apple but NOT by usb interface

storage space hasn't been a problem in last 5 or so years.

the compatibility of the formats and plugs has been a real issue lately because every mazdafoking company tried to introduce their own format and now we have 10-20 different memory card formats when in reality we only need one or two at the most same with usb cables for cell phones.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

check this out.. im getting one for my daily beater lol its well within a beater budget



Kenwood KMM-100U

THIS ONE PLAYS FLAC ALSO


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Don't know if it has been mantioned yet but as far as USB flash drives go, most head units like them in FAT32 format, that limits you to 32GB.

I was also looking for a head unit that would play FLAC and the hassle was not worth it for me so I settled on WAV.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

Allan74 said:


> So I'm not the only one who thinks being able to copy 64GB of flac tunes onto a USB thumbdrive to take on the road, rather than taking 100 CDs is a decent idea ?


It's a good idea, but I put 400+ CD's(WAV.)on a 250gb hard drive, and velcro'ed it to the back of my glovebox, and thats a better idea!


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

damn lol the point of flac is to keep the track data in it like mp3

WAV does not have track data capability (id tag)
and it takes double the space.

having a hard drive puts a lot more load on your USB interface because they use more power when most of the usb ports are limited to 1a or .5a
unless you buy the SSD which are as expensive as thumbdrives and have their own limitations.

hard drive is NOT a better idea .

CROSSFIRED you live in SF where temps barely drop below zero.

when I had an HD in my car in seattle I would drive to work and park my car before the HD unfreezes. same thing at night.

im using a 64gb flash drive with the jvc unit no problem...

and theres already 4-5 units to pick from with flac capability.
I tried wav for few months and its more of a hassle than flac


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

Space is cheap, if your HU has the power, it ok to use it, as saving power on your HU's usb is is just silly talk. Tagging? I dont know. Theres data in Wav. files, that gives album and track names, that's all I need.

I'd rather use AIFF files, but there are few to none HU's that read them from a USB source.

My place in Carson city gets real cold, but I never had the hard drive freeze. Most HD have a rated working temp range of -30 to 150*f, if thats not enough? an SSD would take care of that.


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## 1998993C2S (Feb 2, 2011)

Nope, your not alone in wanting to use FLAC as a HiFi performance storage strategy.
I've recently installed the Pioneer DEX-P99RS (1 DIN) head unit in my MY98 911 (993) coupe. Couldn't be happier, its a true HiFi hi-performance car unit. It has several clean 24/96 DAC's and I believe its supports FLAC, WAV among others. Additionally the P99RS is "one of one" automotive head units that uses its internal DAC and not the iPhone's simplistic on-board DAC when coupled. However be that as it may, my focus is now on suitable FLAC storage devices. Lemme get the manual...

Which USB thumbdrive can you recommend?

Cheers, Mike



Allan74 said:


> So I'm not the only one who thinks being able to copy 64GB of flac tunes onto a USB thumbdrive to take on the road, rather than taking 100 CDs is a decent idea ?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

1998993C2S said:


> Nope, your not alone in wanting to use FLAC as a HiFi performance storage strategy.
> I've recently installed the Pioneer DEX-P99RS (1 DIN) head unit in my MY98 911 (993) coupe. Couldn't be happier, its a true HiFi hi-performance car unit. It has several clean 24/96 DAC's and I believe its supports FLAC, WAV among others. Additionally the P99RS is "one of one" automotive head units that uses its internal DAC and not the iPhone's simplistic on-board DAC when coupled. However be that as it may, my focus is now on suitable FLAC storage devices. Lemme get the manual...
> 
> Which USB thumbdrive can you recommend?
> ...


Nope, doesn't support FLAC nor high resolution media. And is one of _many_ that interfaces via digital usb with iDevices and USB sources. When you _only_ have 4 hardwire pins that connect the portable device to the head unit, it can mean only that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB











And.....

The P99RS versus the measly iPhone5's headphone output. (p99 results courtesy of Bikinpunk, http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1636518-post11.html)



bikinpunk said:


>







t3sn4f2 said:


> Here's my iPhone5 headphone output result for reference. THD tone is at -1dB this time and so your looking at ~1 volt RMS output and full volume setting on the iPhone. You can see it's not that hard these days to get excellent CD format performance.
> 
> Ignore the -3dB on the graph header, that is a standard title when export the test results to HTML which I screen pasted and got the pic from. You can see in the graph that the tone level is near the top of the range, higher than Erin's. Showing I tested THD at -1dB instead of the standard -3dB.


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## 1998993C2S (Feb 2, 2011)

Wow.... I'm speechless. "Well,, raise my rent"
The P99RS hasn't exactly aged very well,, that and the reasonably priced Pioneer 80PRS head unit performs admirably; under $300.00. Yeah, I read the manual just after posting, dam no FLAC codec.
I've had the P99RS in a box since a few Christmas's ago so its long in the tooth. I've only recently installed the unit.

Tell me the EQ section of the 80PRS is on par with the P99RS...
Any idea of Pioneer's product development? Possibly a P99RS II..?


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

ZAKOH said:


> Once flac head units become common, we will start running into a different kind of problem: the storage. How much does it take to store a typical CD in flac format? 200-300 megabytes? The problem with this is that a lot of head units supposed only FAT32 file system which supports only up to 32GB of space. There are tools to create larger FAT32 partitions, but in my experience some head units get fooled with media partitioned this way.


I had a 250GB 2.5" hard drive from an old MacBook lying around at work. Someone had marked it as bad. I slaved onto another machine, ran a disk repair and formatted it in FAT32. I loaded it up with music and plugged into my 80PRS. I was surprised how responsive it is when searching and browsing. I can see the entire contents of it. It does take it about 10-15 seconds to read the drive when I turn it on, but for the convenience, it is worth it. Definitely worth it. Now I just need to come up with a way to mount to minimize vibrations.


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## 1998993C2S (Feb 2, 2011)

I'll use a SSD (solid state drive) and the WAV codec for storage.

Well,, we'll hear how it goes. . . Man, when asking Santa for the P99RS a couple of years ago, I thought it was ALL that. Now that I've only recently installed the HU... its a bummer to understand there's NO FLAC codec. Don't get me wrong the EQ is comprehensive and its a great sounding/operational HU. Plus the aesthetic (elegantly simple) fits the old sckool interior of the 911 coupe just fine. Is there possibly a P99RS *series II* in the pipeline? Anyone, Buelher?

Cheer's, Mike , 







CrossFired said:


> Space is cheap, if your HU has the power, it ok to use it, as saving power on your HU's usb is is just silly talk. Tagging? I dont know. Theres data in Wav. files, that gives album and track names, that's all I need.
> 
> I'd rather use AIFF files, but there are few to none HU's that read them from a USB source.
> 
> My place in Carson city gets real cold, but I never had the hard drive freeze. Most HD have a rated working temp range of -30 to 150*f, if thats not enough? an SSD would take care of that.


Pictures 2 each:
1998 Porsche 911 Carrera S (993) coupe -.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

1998993C2S said:


> I'll use a SSD (solid state drive) and the WAV codec for storage.
> 
> We'll hear how it goes. . . Man, when asking Santa for the P99RS a couple of years ago, I thought it was ALL that. Now that I've only recently installed the HU... its a bummer to understand there's NO FLAC codec.
> 
> Cheer's, Mike


Dunno if this will work but how bout an iDevice hooked up via USB running the Flac player app.


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## erlebo (Jan 10, 2012)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Dunno if this will work but how bout an iDevice hooked up via USB running the Flac player app.


I used the FLAC Player app with a P99 for a while, a few versions ago. It had bugs. I gave up and converted to ALAC. That works well. Newer versions of FLAC Player might be fine and other apps have come out since.


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## 1998993C2S (Feb 2, 2011)

I've downloaded this HD media app at JRiver. JRiver Media Center software
We'll see (hear) how it goes as their download trial period is 30 days.


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## evilspoons (Jul 5, 2012)

1998993C2S said:


> I'll use a SSD (solid state drive) and the WAV codec for storage.


Technical nitpick: WAV isn't a CODEC, WAV is a container. A WAV file can contain different CODECs like PCM audio (which is what's on a CD: 44 KHz 16-bit stereo PCM), MP3, AAC, whatever (yes, you read correctly, you can have an MP3-encoded WAV file.)

If you're using a car PC, there is ZERO reason not to use a lossless CODEC like FLAC or ALAC. Literally the same bit-for-bit audio output, but 10 to 50% smaller file size. WAV files also have extremely poor metadata support, unlike ALAC/FLAC/a million other formats.

A really good audio player is MusicBee, although I'm not sure how well it performs in a car PC application. I have a large library of FLAC files ripped from my CD collection and I use MusicBee to convert them to high quality M4A when I want to listen to them on an SD card on my Pioneer X930BT.


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## 1998993C2S (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks evilspoons - The devil is in the details. I'm new to the P99RS Pioneer head unit installed the 911 although Santa (my daughters) bought me the head unit a few Christmas's ago. 

I'll give MusicBee a look see. Thanks!


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## womble (Oct 26, 2012)

Well I bought myself one of the Kenwood KMM decks to have a play with. I got the KMM-257 as it was cheap and has everything the KMM-357 does except display colors and the SD card slot.

I was actually very pleasantly surprised - for the money, they're good value and sound really good.

*Good points:*

FLAC support !!!
Powers a 320gig 2.5" external drive via USB, chock-full of flacs
Starts playing flacs off the hard drive in less than 10s from starting the car 
Sensible tactile buttons to push for next/last track etc. - no stupid jog wheel or touchscreen taking my eyes off the road.
Fast indexing of a new usb drive - takes only 10 or so seconds until playback can start
Good range of audio settings
Changeable display colors (on the KMM-357SD)
Cheap!

Sadly, it'll be coming out again soon, due to a couple of fatal flaws, which I knew about before purchase..

*Bad points:*

Only 1 set of RCA's on the back (doh! what were they thinking!)
No bluetooth support
No rear USB to run the hard drive
No time alignment

If you can live with the bad points above, I can recommend the KMM units.

Sadly, for me its a near miss from Kenwood - hopefully they'll do something similar with more serious audio output options, and its reminded me how irritating it is to have to plug in my android phone and run a flac player off touchscreen compared to it just working.

One set of RCA's.. why??


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## womble (Oct 26, 2012)

Oh, forgot to mention, there's a new model series, only in Germany so far..

The KMM-361SD (and KMM-261 etc.)

Doesn't indicate, but it appears very similar spec-wise to the KMM-357SD, but with a different button layout. I'm wondering if its the rumoured upgrade to a 24bit/96khz capable DAC?

And even more hopefully, another model with FLAC and bluetooth support, the KMM-BT34 (which again stupidly has 1 pair of pre-outs).

You can find specs for them all (in german) on Kenwoods german site:

Kenwood Electronics Deutschland | Car Entertainment > Autoradio > Autoradios

Question is, will they bring out a higher KMM-BT model with 3 lots of pre-outs and one rear usb port (as well as the front one)??

If they do, I'm buying!

edit: here's the kmm-361sd specs in english.. http://www.kenwood.eu/products/car/receivers/all/KMM-361SD/details/ - no mention of 16 vs 24-bit DAC


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## NetTechie (Feb 26, 2014)

Thought it might be worth adding that the new JVC media receivers support .flac files, models KD-X310BT (2 pair of preamp outputs), KD-X210 (1 pair preamp outputs), and KD-X31MBS. 

Also, there are two new models from Kenwood that play .flac files. The KMM-BT308U (1 pair preamp outputs), and KMM-108U (also 1 pair preamp outputs). 

I like that the KD-X310BT has 2 pairs of preamp outputs, so you can then use it with an external amp for the speakers (would need an external fader though), and a sub at the same time, as it isn't a switched output. This allows head unit control of the sub level. Not sure what the hertz low pass filter settings are on the JVC units, as I couldn't find an online manual to verify it has choices. EDIT: choices for this model are 55Hz, 85Hz, or 120Hz. All the kenwood units have choices on the hertz for low pass filter. 

As yet no units seem to have preouts for front, rear, and sub. In time I guess. Pioneer and Alpine do not support .flac yet, but their new units do support .wav PCM, so I guess that's an improvement over just mp3/wma. 

And of course, the first single din unit that had .flac is the Kenwood KMM-100U. So total of six units as far as I can find that are single din (not nav units) that support the flac file format.

I don't know if the new Kenwoods do 32bit .flac or not, guess someone will have to buy one and test it. The JVC units don't state the bit support either.

Edit: I noticed the JVC units mention they support a 4 port hub, so you can connect up to 4 storage devices to it through a hub and choose between them as a source.


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## womble (Oct 26, 2012)

NetTechie said:


> Thought it might be worth adding that the new JVC media receivers support .flac files, models KD-X310BT (2 pair of preamp outputs), KD-X210 (1 pair preamp outputs), and KD-X31MBS.


Nice spot! - presumably because JVC and Kenwood are the same company these days (the buttons/layout of the KD-X310BT look very similar to the KMM-BT308U)?

Looks like the european (Australian-compatible radio) version will be the KD-X310BTE.



NetTechie said:


> Also, there are two new models from Kenwood that play .flac files. The KMM-BT308U (1 pair preamp outputs), and KMM-108U (also 1 pair preamp outputs).


It looks like these are the USA versions of the KMM-BT34 and KMM-361SD.



NetTechie said:


> Edit: I noticed the JVC units mention they support a 4 port hub, so you can connect up to 4 storage devices to it through a hub and choose between them as a source.


Interesting - thats actually pretty cool, especially with the iPod application control, as you could run both an iPod and a HDD via USB at the same time. Now they just need to move the USB port to the rear


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## NetTechie (Feb 26, 2014)

Just to clarify, Crutchfield is much less detailed as to what you can do with the KD-X210 and usb hubs, for the KD-X310BT it says:



> The Drive Change feature allows you to connect a memory card reader or USB hub to the JVC's USB input and select music from up to five memory cards or USB flash drives.


But for KD-X210 it doesn't specifically say it will support a hub. I submitted a question to crutchfield in this regard, I'll update when I hear back.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

The 2014 eXcelon double-dins all support flac now: DNN* / DNX* / DDX*


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## NetTechie (Feb 26, 2014)

Hey, annoyed as I am that they only have flac capable head units with usb on the front of the unit, I did find a nice little cable on ebay, a 90 degree adapter that then can be plugged into your device so you don't have the cable sticking so far out of the deck. Can only be ordered as a set of 2 from china on ebay. One goes angle up, one goes angle down (left/right).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380586928363?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Edit: Looks like there is one from amazon that sticks out further, but doesn't take a month to come from china. Looking at the picture it seems to be tipped the correct direction (to the right I think it is).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AQNX2/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

Amazon.com: ADATA DashDrive Durable 16GB USB Water Resistant, Black (AUD310-16G-RBK): Electronics

Much, much better solution than that bulky cable.


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## NetTechie (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm looking at using a hard drive with the unit, which requires a USB cable running out the front. 250gb thumb drives are still big as yet, though they are available.


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## CMoranRVA (May 4, 2014)

The Clarion NX404 supports FLAC.

I just installed it, but am probably going to return it.

Spec-wise, it's very impressive:

2 USB inputs
3 sets it RCA's
HDMI
Very clean and user friendly nav
Front facing SD card slot and aux input
Mirrorlink
Under $500


However, the ipod interface is horrible. Very slow, and tends to freeze up very regularly.

I'm thinking about going for the 8000NEX.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

new pioneers have all the outputs you need and play flac

example

Pioneer AVIC-5000NEX Navigation receiver at Crutchfield.com


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

I thought so too at first. front usb lame..
until I went to frys to pick up a thumb drive

they got retarded small since last time I bought one
you can barely tell its there


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## auteur (Jun 23, 2014)

hello!

first post here!

i would like to buy a car audio system and need some help.
my music source will be 3.
1) my iphone with spotify premium account, 
2) a very old ipod classic 120gb, 
3) i have also a portable 2TB WD mypassport ultra hard disk (full of FLAC files) that powers on with the usb3 cable (no need for power cable)

I dont mind if the head unit doesn't have a radio receiver or a cd player.

I was thinking about Pioneer DEH-X9600.. but probably doesn't support flac playback. 

is there any other units that have good sound quality like the DEH 9600 (at the price range of 200e/$)?

those that support flac files do they also support portable 2tb hard drives or they only play those files from usb sticks and SD cards?

is there any solution/connection kit that i can connect my iphone with my portable hard drive and play those flac files with the app FLAC player?

thanks


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

*Re: .flack Audio Capable Head Units ?*



auteur said:


> hello!
> 
> first post here!
> 
> ...


I could be wrong but I don't think any head unit is USB 3 compatible yet. It least not without an adapter to power it and give you a usb 2 parallel connection.


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## auteur (Jun 23, 2014)

*Re: .flack Audio Capable Head Units ?*



t3sn4f2 said:


> I could be wrong but I don't think any head unit is USB 3 compatible yet. It least not without an adapter to power it and give you a usb 2 parallel connection.


usb3 is downward compatible with usb2 and have the same connection at the cable end that connects with the head unit, my only concern is if the head unit has enough power through usb connection to power up bigger drives like the 2tb
wd mypassport ultra..

has anyone use a usb3 hard disk successfully?
or a usb2 drive with high capacity (1TB or 2TB)?


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## womble (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: .flack Audio Capable Head Units ?*



auteur said:


> has anyone use a usb3 hard disk successfully?
> or a usb2 drive with high capacity (1TB or 2TB)?


I've been using a 320G Western Digital 2.5" sata drive with the Kenwood KMM-257, in a regular USB2 enclosure. 

My drive is a WD3200BEVT if you want to look up the initial and seek current draw to see what it pulls compared to your drives. I've had the drive for about 5 years, so larger newer drives may actually pull less current than it.

I'm about to start looking for a replacement head unit - largely because I want one with Bluetooth, and at least four pre-outs (for front/rear or maybe front/sub depending on how I wire the car's speakers).


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## womble (Oct 26, 2012)

erlebo said:


> I used the FLAC Player app with a P99 for a while, a few versions ago. It had bugs. I gave up and converted to ALAC. That works well. Newer versions of FLAC Player might be fine and other apps have come out since.


After researching head units again last night, I've decided to give ALAC a try - I just bought a used 5.5gen iPod on ebay (they apparently have the best onboard DAC of any iPod to date), ordered a ZIF to mSata adapter, and will give it a test with a spare 60gig msata SSD I have here.

If it works successfully and sounds ok with the iPod's internal DAC, I'll order a 500gig SSD to fit in the iPod, and it can live in the glovebox with my whole collection on it.


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## rmcintir (Aug 9, 2014)

I added a USB to the back of my KD-X310BT by using a cheap USB-A extension, cutting off the female end and soldering to the main board as shown in the picture. The USB wiring color coding is standard. It works quite well. Front one works too but I haven't tried at the same time as the back one connected, may draw too much power. I use a 128GB USB stick and have lots of FLAC music.

Don't let the lack of a rear USB deter you from this player, just add your own. At ~$75.00 who cares about the voided warranty, also I could unsolder and no one could tell anyway...


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## ANDRESVELASCO (Dec 7, 2015)

I have opened a New thread with a list of HU's that can play FLAC and apt-x BT too... 

Here the link:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...263761-head-units-apt-x-flac-player-list.html


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