# JBL MS-8 Impressions



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I didn't have a chance to play with this for more than two afternoons, but I did manage to come up with some quick impressions of the device. Unfortunately I didn't have rear speakers so I wasn't able to test Logic 7. My experience with BMW logic 7 is that it sounds terrible, but I'm sure that's more to do with overall system setup and equipment than logic 7 itself.

1. Like many others here I'm sure, I don't mount the display unit as I prefer to keep a stock interior and I wouldn't be looking at it anyway unless I was tuning. That being said I would have preferred to have an integrated display/controller device that can tuck away, rather than a separate remote control and display. I'd find myself sitting there holding the display in one hand and pushing buttons on the remote with the other, which feels a bit odd.

2. The size of the unit is problematic for me and I'm sure for others as well. I could not find anywhere discreet to mount it, and ultimately no matter how much I might have liked it I couldn't keep it because of this fact.

3. No independent channel/driver level output controls. I found that I still needed this to achieve the level of tuning I prefer.

4. Auto-tuning appears to be very gain sensitive in my experience. If you're running your sub or mid gains a bit higher like most of us tend to do, I believe it messes up the auto tuning big time. I'd get a really off centered stage with almost no ambiance to the left. Also, if your gains are set too low (say to avoid hiss), you might lose a lot of output after auto-tuning is done. There might be other situations as well where the ms-8 for whatever reason doesn't like where your amp gains are set, and you will tend to lose significant system output. 

If the auto-tune doesn't sound right to you, chances are playing with the gains will fix the problem. Just make sure that after auto-tuning is done, the gains are set back to the same relative position for each channel otherwise it will obviously screw up the level balancing for each channel. Easiest way to work with the gains is to find what works before auto-tuning, and leave it there.

5. Tonally, I believe I can still do substantially better than the ms-8's auto tune over time. Can you? I don't know. To me, it sounded like a good stock system tonally but with better drivers and more power. Which is high praise indeed don't get me wrong, but for me I had that tiny hope that it could surpass what I was capable of (I know unrealistic).

6. Staging and imaging is stable and locked in. I think this is the best part of the auto-tuning. You're pretty much still limited by driver location and vehicle acoustics, but the ms-8 will pretty much do in 1 minute what I can do in a day or a week and I'm sure better than what most people could achieve on their own. I didn't try testing for more than one seat though. Also, some people like myself prefer to have the image centered in front of the driver. It would be nice to have that option. Playing with the l/r fader controls can move the stage, but it seems to mess up the auto-tuning a little bit and you lose output.

7. Bass is upfront and well blended without missing holes or peaks in the response. I didn't find it to be too anemic, although I'm sure 99.9% of the people out there will. This is really where your bass should be if you're a purist. Completely invisible and no sense of resonant bloom, overly strong undertones or exaggerated midbass kick/punch. Just seamless, close to perfect bass. No adjustments needed here. 

8. Treble is generally unoffensive although I found it to be a bit forward in the upper treble region. Working with the EQ took quite a bit of time, but eventually I could get it ~90-95% where I wanted. See #3 above as well.

9. Midrange is where I was disappointed. The ms-8 removes significant lower end midrange resonance which is good (because most people suck at doing this right), but tonally to me it sounded "hollow" and kind of clock radio-ish. You can play with the 31 band EQ to tweak to taste, but after a few hours I still couldn't get it close to where I wanted. Maybe after a few months I could have gotten it exactly where I have it with my PPI DCX730, but again the PPI setup also took several months of tuning to achieve. The PPI obviously has quite a bit more tuning control, but whether the ms-8 could eventually achieve the same result I don't know. I'd like to think it could, but obviously there are some response shapes that you simply can't draw with a 31 band EQ that you can with an independent 7 band PEQ. What I really liked about the ms-8's EQ however, was that you could change the system tonally without messing up the staging/imaging like you would with traditional EQ.

For most people though, I'm willing to bet that the auto-tune is a significant step up in tonality. 

10. Bluetooth functionality. Appears to work fine for me. But I recall seeing that it doesn't work for some people. Just thought I would mention it.

Conclusion: Big thumbs up to JBL. For most people, after learning some of the quirks of the device (gains, tuning limitations) I think would be very happy with it. So far it is the best auto-tuning processor I've heard and is relatively straightforward and easy to use. If you're a picky/expert tuner, and you already have a setup that has been tweaked to perfection there is really no reason to buy the ms-8 unless you want to try logic-7.

**P.S. Bikinipunk you will probably recognize the ms-8's auto-tuning stimulus signal to sound very similar to Praxis's "chirp." Very fast and robust, and beats listening to a long ass MLS sequence or worse a swept sine.


----------



## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

agreed love the review. but staging in front of the driver???? heard one of these my self and if I cant play with the fine tuning and no digital input its not for me. I have personally heard one of these and they do an excellent job but there are some taste that take a personal touch and not a generic touch. other wise a great unit.

I still prefer my bitone.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My initial thoughts are a bit different regarding the tonality of the autotune.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I should qualify that statement. Without the center it was ok, but pretty different with the center.


----------



## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

I just got my MS-8 yesterday and hooked it to the fronts then. Today I went active with the l/r drivers 2 way, and added the center as well as the rears. BIG difference. Huge difference really. After hearing so much about the autotune I thought that was going to be the best part about it, but I really think the Logic 7 is the cherry on top. The autotune is ok for me, I'm still going to do some tuning on top of it but as Dang said it does get you a lot closer there than most would and cuts a lot of time


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

npdang said:


> 3. No independent channel/driver level output controls.




Seriously?



> If the auto-tune doesn't sound right to you, chances are playing with the gains will fix the problem. Just make sure that after auto-tuning is done, the gains are set back to the same relative position for each channel otherwise it will obviously screw up the level balancing for each channel. Easiest way to work with the gains is to find what works before auto-tuning, and leave it there.


I'm always wary of auto-tune functionality ever since I played with it in the Behringer DEQ, and the atrocity it produced.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

copy/pasting myself from elsewhere



bikinpunk said:


> the ms8 does the output level for you. Most of the people complaining about it all have the same issue: staging. And this is always (in every case someone's discussed it publicly or privately) tied to how their gains are set up before auto cal. It's quite simple to set it up properly for prime auto calibration.
> after you go through the crossover setup you get to the 'output diagnostic' screen. use this to level match your gains by ear. then run the auto cal. you're done.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

matdotcom2000 said:


> agreed love the review. but staging in front of the driver????


kind of unrelated, but the funny thing is that some prefer the center to be in front of them. I'm not one of them, though. 


Back OT, as Nyugen has noted, a lot of the staging aspects really will be affected by your gains. Many people have had issues with staging and it always comes down to how they have their output setup via gains before factoring in the ms-8. Once that is taken care of, the problems are gone. 
See: maxorz, joedirte, chadillac, etc.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

npdang said:


> If you're a picky/expert tuner, and you already have a setup that has been tweaked to perfection there is really no reason to buy the ms-8 unless you want to try logic-7.


I guess I come from a different school of thought on this subject. I'd say this:
If you already have a setup that has been tweaked to perfection and _you are more than happy with it_, then there's no need to buy the ms-8. 

Meaning that I don't believe the ms-8 holds you back from tweaking and experimenting. Though you no longer have the ability to touch gain & t/a, you still do have an overall graphic.
The plus side to the ms8, IMO (and I have said this many times), is that it really does open the door for people to quickly and effectively try different install methods and drivers if for nothing else than to get a general idea of how X install effects Y, etc, etc. It's really, really hard to do this effectively with a manual tune because you have to spend a good bit of time setting levels and time alignment every time you put a new set of drivers in. 
I absolutely dreaded testing new drivers because of this aspect, but I did it anyway. What used to take at least 2 hours, I can do in about 15 minutes. IMO, that's a real solid benefit of the ms-8. But, then again, if you don't care about that then maybe you should stick to the bitone/701/etc options. If you like what you have, keep it. 

And, as I've stated, if anyone plans on passing through my area anytime, shoot me a PM and we can arrange to demo mine in your car so you can find out if you like it or not. I have a lot of praise for this, but I realize it's not for everyone for many reasons.


Edit: Nyugen, please don't take my replies as being contrary. Just expressing my thoughts on some things you spoke about. 
I appreciate your review. I agreed with a few points, for sure.

- Erin


----------



## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> The plus side to the ms8, IMO (and I have said this many times), is that it really does open the door for people to quickly and effectively try different install methods and drivers if for nothing else than to get a general idea of how X install effects Y, etc, etc. It's really, really hard to do this effectively with a manual tune because you have to spend a good bit of time setting levels and time alignment every time you put a new set of drivers in.
> I absolutely dreaded testing new drivers because of this aspect, but I did it anyway. What used to take at least 2 hours, I can do in about 15 minutes. IMO, that's a real solid benefit of the ms-8. But, then again, if you don't care about that then maybe you should stick to the bitone/701/etc options. If you like what you have, keep it.


just a healthy opinion but if I do remember correctly you cant save the settings on the MS8 I maybe wrong but I did not see that option when I got a chance to sit with one. And if I cant save my settings and I wanna swap out could the next time I autotune be different from the first time I autotune??? I am referring to when I would reinstall the original drivers I had in before the swap?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

you eq/tone controls settings never change. And, you have 5 settings you can save.
you can save your settings but it's only for one tune. it's actually quite simple, however, to get the original settings back since all you have to remember is crossover points.


the autotune is very consistent. I've not had it give me different results unless I changed something (head angle, or amp gain). I've tested this function quite a bit.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> you eq/tone controls settings never change. And, you have 5 settings you can save.
> you can save your settings but it's only for one tune. it's actually quite simple, however, to get the original settings back since all you have to remember is crossover points.
> 
> 
> the autotune is very consistent. I've not had it give me different results unless I changed something (*head angle*, or amp gain). I've tested this function quite a bit.


I forget if you went over this already but does the position of the mic have to be EXACTLY the same as the time before to maintain consistency, on the X and Y not just the angle? IOW will any little change in the body and thus head when getting in and out of the car mess with the consistent results? Or would you have to reeeeeally change your position (ie seat back angle or front to back position) in order for the Cal to give different results?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

it's sensitive, but not to the single digits degree, if that's what you're asking.

I notice the biggest difference when I turn my head further than the mirror location by about 20+ degrees. I'm not certain my head has been in the _exact_ same spot everytime I've re-cal'd to see if the results are the same; I'm sure it varies by a small bit.

Now, if you're talking about another person getting in and cal'ing, then yes, there's a change. Especially if that person is of a different physical size. But, for my own testing, anytime I've tried to repeat the results it's been the same to me.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Thanks for the insight Nyugen. I knew you were getting one of these and was very curious to see what you thought of it.

*Looks like I'm not the only one who prefers an image that is centered in relation to himself. People have said I'm crazy for liking it but it seems natural to me. I don't go home and sit on the left side of my couch when I do dedicated listening.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ it's about equal stage width, to me.

flat out no way to get equal width from left/right and a center image in front you in the car when you're physically sitting left or right of center unless you do an asymmetric install. the nearest side will always be the weakest link. so, if you center is in front of you, in most cases you can bet that you're either going to have unequal width or you're going to have a squished (narrow) sound stage. I've never heard a car that had a center image in front while still retaining a wide stage. it's just a trade off.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> ^ it's about equal stage width, to me.
> 
> flat out no way to get equal width from left/right and a center image in front you in the car when you're physically sitting left or right of center unless you do an asymmetric install. the nearest side will always be the weakest link. so, if you center is in front of you, in most cases you can bet that you're either going to have unequal width or you're going to have a squished (narrow) sound stage. I've never heard a car that had a center image in front while still retaining a wide stage. *it's just a trade off.*


Precisely. You can't have it all. I'll admit to that. :blush:


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Steve Head's Civic did it...and did it very well.


----------



## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Steve Head's Civic did it...and did it very well.


agreed...


----------



## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

cool review Nguyen....where I thinkthe MS-8 shines and is the icing on the cake is really the Logic 7 steering. adding a center and rears takes the experience to a whole different level in a good way. 

I purchased the MS-8 from day one with the idea that I would be utilizing Logic 7 with a center and rears. After getting everything in, it would be real hard for me to go back to 2 channel now.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

BigRed said:


> cool review Nguyen....where I thinkthe MS-8 shines and is the icing on the cake is really the Logic 7 steering. adding a center and rears takes the experience to a whole different level in a good way.
> 
> I purchased the MS-8 from day one with the idea that I would be utilizing Logic 7 with a center and rears. After getting everything in, it would be real hard for me to go back to 2 channel now.


Nice to see you picked up a pair of W15GTi finally.  I'm using one in my new build as well... 

I am picking up an MS-8 shortly but am doing a horn install. I'm curious if I'd see as much benefit from a center channel and rears as the guys running conventional 2/3 way setups. Guess there's only one way to find out.


----------



## phantomplanet (Jul 7, 2010)

I think the MS8 deserves all the hype its gotten. I'm in love with its ability to tune the response of my car's audio. It's a noticeable difference and the price is justified by the sound it produces.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Agreed also, Head's Civic did it great. 

I got my first listen to the MS-8 last night, even with the internal amp running the speakers it sound pretty darn good. It is great what it dose so fast and sounds as nice as it does doing it. But I still feel a experienced tuner, can do as good and better, but man the thing cuts that time down to a blink of an eye. 

Tonally it was very nice even with the internal chip amps, but the thing to is the selling point for me is the easy to get a great and stable sound stage from one seat in a Stereo set-up and from what i here adding the center channel and it is as good from both seats.

Still wouldn't trade my BitOne.1MRM for it, now a MS-8MRM might make me think about it .


----------



## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

I feel the very same thing as npdang...
Anyway, the best car audio product in the last N years.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bump


----------

