# Front stage coaxials = SQ taboo?



## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

What do you think? Is there some specific reason *not* to use co-axial component speakers for a front stage? Can coax even really produce SQ on par with components?

I have been into autosound for a long time now, and I cannot say definitively that the sound of coax speakers is inherently inferior to separates. As a matter of fact, it has always seemed to me that if nothing else, coax at least offer equal path lengths, which is one of the primary hurdles to developing a decent soundstage. 

Of course, satellites are more versatile, and properly aiming tweeters in particular can have a significant impact on imaging, so there is that to consider. 

I have used separates for years now, but I think it is as much about force of habit as anything. I'm just wondering if anybody here has ever attempted to develop a decent front stage using coax speakers, and what kind of results did it yeild? 
Obviously, I'm not talking about competition level quality here, but I do wonder if there are any other reasons in particular why we don't see more people using coax in the mobile realm for a moderately powered (100x2 watt front stage) daily driver.

Hypothetically, if one were to spend say, $300 on a front stage - would you say it be wiser to spend $150 on dampening & $150 on a nice pair of coax, or would it be better to buy a $300 component set and just let psycho-acoustics or some such nonsense convince you that it sounds "better" because you are using more expensive speakers?

Opinions?


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## vageta (Oct 11, 2006)

There is no inherent reason a coax can't sound great, problem is when most people think of coax's they think of the cheap sony 3 or 4 ways you see in walmart. If you get one of the "convertibles" that are really a separate mid and tweeter that have special hardware to mount them coaxially then you're fine. They can still be ran actively or at least they have a good passive and the only real difference is how they're mounted, which in this case is a good thing due to the point source. The best coax's I've heard are the older KEF UNIQ's that actually had the tweeter completely embedded in the center of the cone where the dustcap is.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

^^^ +100... 

A proper coax is also called a "point source" driver and is really the ideal way... the further the tweeter gets from the mid, the more funny phase shift things happen... lol...


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

^ Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking.

I've never heard the KEF, but that design is certainly interesting.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Those Kef's were really great! I know morel makes some "point source" coaxials that are also great...My problem is aside from the component sets you can mount as coaxials (somewhat limited in choices, although there are some very good ones) is that in "most" or "a lot" of circumstances you are probably not going to get the best quality drivers used to make that coaxial. I assume its because of demand and $ vs what will work best. I just dont see people spending $600 on top quality coaxials even though installation would be a million times easier (still needs to be proper I know) and in a good amount of circumstances subtract a lot of tuning issues people have with components the minute they install them. In the end that $600 (I know thats kinda steep, but for the sake of argument lets just use it) might be a good deal because maybe they can drop there $$$ processors (assuming there head unit has some play just in case) and save on $$$ and time consuming mods. I definately think there are plenty of positives to this and think it would be quite easy to build a very very high quality sounding vehicle with this method. On another note.....the old JBL GTI (I think they were GTI back then) coaxials especially the 6x9s were probably the best I have heard. But again this is all my humble opinion/experience! great thread topic by the way!!


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

It's more of a point source but the Audiophile 3" driver is the best sounding midrange I've ever used. It will play from around 300hz up to 20khz. It's the only speaker I've ever had to turn down 20khz on my eq. That speaker is amazing.


I also have some old school MB Quart coaxials that sound amazing. They are from the mid 90's. they are great. You have to tune the tweeter some, but past that--they are the great.

Memphis---then called Fultron--made a line called Aria's back in the 90's and it was a point source driver. It also sounded flat out amazing. I wish Memphis would bring it back just as it was. No changes at all to it. 

In theory a coaxial--and more so a point source---would be the best choice. It lowers the number of sources of information to one point---which would mean less time delay to achieve that result--which generally means a more natural system. The problem is not a lot of companies (right now only Peter at the audiophile) will spend the money to build a coaxial that is of high quality.


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

I could never get proper midbass response from coaxles.

I always thought it was because of the "tweeter pole"(?) going through the middle of the woofer cone. 

Anyways, that's why I gave up on em. 

They might be good in a front stage with a dedicated midbass though.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

So if a decent quality "point source" coax was available, would anybody here give it a try?

I'm going to do some browsing and see what I can find that looks promising. For some reason this is becoming a pet project of mine - partially because I just want to try something different, and partially because I want to test the KISS principle out of curiosity to hear what it sounds like.

It's been so long since I had coax speakers anywhere, that I can't even recall how it sounds, or if the overall effect is noticeably different from components at all.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

IMHO, midbass is the most difficult range to realize regardless of the method. It's just like anything else I suppose - all in the tuning.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

If Peter at the audiophile came out with a 6 1/2" version of his 3" (and it was as good as the 3"), it would be in my car in a heartbeat as my entire front stage.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

What I would be really interested in try would be a GREAT 4" coax with a really kick a$$ tweeter and smooth mid. I can put that in my dash (stock location, dodge ram) and put a pair of great 6.5 or 8" midbass. I actually might try out the jbl p462 (doubt its great but I can get it dirt cheap) with a set of 8s in my doors. I could run a decent 3 way setup with minimal processing and use a good 4 channel amp. But for me a great 4" coaxial would be an instant purchase.


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## 6262ms3 (Feb 27, 2008)

The other reason co-ax's get a bad rep is that they usually get mounted in the factory locations. In most cars this is in the bottom front of the door firing sideways, which is so far off axis (esp. on driver's side) for tweeters that the treble gets murdered and the stage height is around your knees. Put a passenger in the car and the top end disappears entirely. With some properly aimed kicks or dash pods I think a quality co-ax would sound great. Tannoy has been using point-source drivers in their studio monitors for a long time, and they sound fantastic.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

my only complaint about coax. is that the midbass kind of works as an "active" horn messing with the tweeter response.

This is the Seas Dual Concentric used in a friend's car


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Just to add.....If I could build (custom work from a company) my own set of 4" coaxials it would be something along the lines of........boston acoustics z4 (spz60's) Morel elate 4" coaxials (really like the 23 tweet) image dynamics new component line in a 4" coax, polk sr, stuff like that would be awesome! But that is just my taste and what I think would work really really well in my truck.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^the one I'v mentioned above from the autophile is a 3" but it is the exact same size as the Scan 4". Welcome to The Autophile! you can see it.

It works awesome in a dash.


I realize this is just an RTA graph and doesn't mean a whole lot, but it is kind of cool. This was in a small enclosure on axis in the middle of my garage (big garage--door open). Mic was 3 feet from speaker. Clarion DRX9255 HU, Memphis Crossover, Rockford Punch 60 amplifier. Crossover's mid would only go down to 400hz--that is why it rolls off there. 12db/slope on the crossover.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Hmmmm very interesting.........and very impressive. Will definately do some reasearch and maybe some sampling. Thanks!


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Andy how much is that 3"?


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

HOLYCRAP!!!!!!!!! there not exactly giving that set away huh!!! Not sure I am willing to change my whole system around for that. I am sure its awesome but I have already made all the $$$ mods for a traditional 3way. On another hand I have spent alot more on much less I am sure!


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

I have a set of old school 5.25" MB Quart coaxes in my other car...and they sound great. Might use this in a 3way since the midbass is lacking...but midrange is very nice, the highs are abit hot but tuneable. I've also used some Morel Integra 6's before...very coherent sounding set...but also lacking in midbass. I have yet to hear a coax set that can produce midbass as good as component sets.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Not so much, not as much as you think.




Vigarisa said:


> my only complaint about coax. is that the midbass kind of works as an "active" horn messing with the tweeter response.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

They are expensive...but they are really worth it. Really worth it.



rexroadj said:


> HOLYCRAP!!!!!!!!! there not exactly giving that set away huh!!! Not sure I am willing to change my whole system around for that. I am sure its awesome but I have already made all the $$$ mods for a traditional 3way. On another hand I have spent alot more on much less I am sure!


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

you're right. Not at all coax. I haven't tried them all too...

I should say my complaint on some coax. drivers. 

The morel one is ok, but I don't like the tweeter response that much.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

6262ms3 said:


> The other reason co-ax's get a bad rep is that they usually get mounted in the factory locations. In most cars this is in the bottom front of the door firing sideways, which is so far off axis (esp. on driver's side) for tweeters that the treble gets murdered and the stage height is around your knees. Put a passenger in the car and the top end disappears entirely. With some properly aimed kicks or dash pods I think a quality co-ax would sound great. Tannoy has been using point-source drivers in their studio monitors for a long time, and they sound fantastic.


But what if you could lowpass the coaxial low in the doors to something like 8khz and have a pair of tweets in the dash picking up from there? Reason I say this is to cut down on reflections up top while still allowing the "image tweets" to help pull the stage up. Right now I'm trying to think of some 6.5" coaxials that have a nice laid back sound to them. Also would like a pair that have a real lowpass on the mids vs letting them roll off and beam.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Despite the overall tone of this forum I am a very firm believer you need to spend money to get top quality (total package: customer service, durability, as well as build, etc..) I will definately contemplate the idea. I think I would be more interested in just the mid/tweeter and do my own midbass rather then the set.


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> But what if you could lowpass the coaxial low in the doors to something like 8khz and have a pair of tweets in the dash picking up from there? Reason I say this is to cut down on reflections up top while still allowing the "image tweets" to help pull the stage up. Right now I'm trying to think of some 6.5" coaxials that have a nice laid back sound to them. Also would like a pair that have a real lowpass on the mids vs letting them roll off and beam.


You can just clip some wires and bi-amp them.

That's what I did when I was experimenting with coaxals.

Still doesn't solve the midbass issue though.


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## ClassicCoupe (Aug 7, 2008)

rexroadj said:


> What I would be really interested in try would be a GREAT 4" coax with a really kick a$$ tweeter and smooth mid. I can put that in my dash (stock location, dodge ram) and put a pair of great 6.5 or 8" midbass. I actually might try out the jbl p462 (doubt its great but I can get it dirt cheap) with a set of 8s in my doors. I could run a decent 3 way setup with minimal processing and use a good 4 channel amp. But for me a great 4" coaxial would be an instant purchase.


Not sure how you define GREAT, but I have two sets of "convertible" coaxs from MB Quart and the PCE-210 would fit your bill as it is a 4" woofer with a 1" titanium dome tweeter.

The speaker is no longer available from the "new" MB Quart, but you should be able to find a set on eBay or similar sites.

I use my set for the front stage, but with the woofer and tweeter mounted separately. They require quite a bit of mounting space in the coax configuration.

I like how they sound, but I'm a noob so your mileage may vary. :blush:


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Megalo said:


> You can just clip some wires and bi-amp them.
> 
> That's what I did when I was experimenting with coaxals.
> 
> Still doesn't solve the midbass issue though.


No problems getting midbass for me. Good solid door install pwns allNow about biamping, I still want to use my tweeters in the dash locations to bring the stage up...or at least try to so there MUST be a functional passive in the coaxial. I'm drawing a blank on coaxials that sound laid back. The only ones I can think of that I truly liked were the Diamond d6 series and they have that funky grill the tweeter sits on.


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> No problems getting midbass for me. Good solid door install pwns allNow about biamping, I still want to use my tweeters in the dash locations to bring the stage up...or at least try to so there MUST be a functional passive in the coaxial. I'm drawing a blank on coaxials that sound laid back. The only ones I can think of that I truly liked were the Diamond d6 series and they have that funky grill the tweeter sits on.


Good solid doors are a must for great midbass, but your weak link will be the coaxal woofer itself. 

There is literally a hole in the middle of the woofer cone.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

I think the PCE were a great set. Do you think the q series tweets would work in place of the P. I had both and definately prefer the q. I have an extra set of Qs hanging around.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Just remembered liking these in a couple different installs. They sound like ass on a board but even out nicely off axis.
T162C - Rockford Fosgate 6.5" 2 Way Power Speaker


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

at the risk of sounding like an idiot......how does a whole for a tweeter post differ from a mid with a pole piece or a dust cap? Isnt there a hole there regardless?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Megalo said:


> Good solid doors are a must for great midbass, but your weak link will be the coaxal woofer itself.
> 
> There is literally a hole in the middle of the woofer cone.


No hole here.
D661i - Diamond Audio 6.5" Integrated Components Speakers


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

rexroadj said:


> at the risk of sounding like an idiot......how does a whole for a tweeter post differ from a mid with a pole piece or a dust cap? Isnt there a hole there regardless?


That's what I was thinking. The tweeter post going inside the coil is no different from having a phaseplug there...or is it?


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

Good points. 

I don't know.


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

I ran MBQ 4" coaxials back about 10 years ago and I wish would have neversold them. They were great when paired up to the MBQ 6.5" Midbass and Musicomp 3 way passives.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Nothing wrong with using a good coaxial up front... in many cases, I prefer it.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Whoa what about these?
http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/Hertz_HiEnergy_HCX690.pdf

Sorry bout the threadjack. I'll be picking some brains here in a couple weeks about this.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Those diamonds look pretty nice. I llike the design


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Hertz..........Now were talking! I am definately not going to put in coaxials in my doors so the 6"+ are out for me but those seem like a nice option. Do you guys think coaxials in the doors and dash is a bad idea? It just seems like it would cause more problems then good. unless they were all active in which case the concept wouldnt be any better then a traditional 3way setup. At least thats what makes sense to me? I think??
Damn you Chaos......Damn you!!!!!


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> That's what I was thinking. The tweeter post going inside the coil is no different from having a phaseplug there...or is it?


Seems like we usually examine SPL based on cone area and excursion. With a hole in the center, that is not a _moving_ part of the cone area, which means I wouldn't think it could be factored into the above SPL equation. That means that especially at the lower midbass frequencies where you need all the cone area/excursion synergy you can get, the coax driver with a tweeter post mounted through the cone would have less cone area than the same woofer with a dust cap and no "tweeter tower". 

Not really much hard science to my explanation though, so I could be wrong. It has happened before


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for forcing me to think outside the box Chaos. Those Hertz x9's look tasty and have a sweet pair of tweets in the dash already that are GRRREEAT up top.

And where you been mang?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

94VG30DE said:


> Seems like we usually examine SPL based on cone area and excursion. With a hole in the center, that is not a _moving_ part of the cone area, which means I wouldn't think it could be factored into the above SPL equation. That means that especially at the lower midbass frequencies where you need all the cone area/excursion synergy you can get, the coax driver with a tweeter post mounted through the cone would have less cone area than the same woofer with a dust cap and no "tweeter tower".
> 
> Not really much hard science to my explanation though, so I could be wrong. It has happened before


There isn't much cone area taken up by that post though. Nice explination though. Definately holds water.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

what about midbass drivers that quite a few people agree to have some guts to them.... examples....... pioneer prs, jbl gti, image dynamics, etc......The all have a pole piece? Isnt that the exact same thing as a tweeter mount (in theory?) in some of those cases they are usable as coax. Also the kicker qs components are very nice overall components that I used as components and really enjoyed but they can be used as coaxials as well. could be a nice option


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Hillbilly-I like the Energy Coaxs better. Just IMO you can hear them on the first and decide.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

rexroadj said:


> Hertz..........Now were talking! I am definately not going to put in coaxials in my doors so the 6"+ are out for me but those seem like a nice option. Do you guys think coaxials in the doors and dash is a bad idea? It just seems like it would cause more problems then good. unless they were all active in which case the concept wouldnt be any better then a traditional 3way setup. At least thats what makes sense to me? I think??
> Damn you Chaos......Damn you!!!!!




I think that using coax in more than one location would only tend to muddy the soundstage, and depending on the freq range, it could make imaging a nightmare.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

thats what I figured. My only thought would be maybe setting the output of the dash really really low so it was kinda like stage enhancement. But probably not at all worth the experiment.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

And that's why I hate coming here! Too many good ideas. 8's in my doors and 5.25/6.5" in the kickpanels would be sweet. Welp, back to the drawing board.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

never ends does it.......it truly is a sickness.......Dammit....I hate when my wife is right


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Thanks for forcing me to think outside the box Chaos. Those Hertz x9's look tasty and have a sweet pair of tweets in the dash already that are GRRREEAT up top.
> 
> And where you been mang?


Out of the box...out of my mind...I've been accused of both - frequently, and for the same reason - I have too much time on my hands sometimes, and I work in R&D 

I haven't been around because I liquidated my gear a while back when I thought I was going to trade in my truck (but didn't) and now I'm feeling the itch to start building another system.

This time, I'm thinkin' that I want to modify the OEM door pods to aim a pair of coax better in order to hear what kind of front stage I can make out of it.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

rexroadj said:


> never ends does it.......it truly is a sickness.......Dammit....I hate when my wife is right


truf.

Autosound is like crack to me, that's all there is too it :worried:


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

I have been thinking fo coaxs to lately.
Especially since it makes them easyer to mount. Just found out the new PPI bonner can be mounted coaxially. 

Someone mentioned energy has a coax, but they component set can also be moutned as a coax. I think that is a great option.

HEre is the one I would like to replace my 8inch SLS's with.

Focal 210 CA1 (210ca1) Other sizes Car Speakers Car Audio Car Audio, Video, & GPS Navigation - Sonic Electronix


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> It's more of a point source but the Audiophile 3" driver is the best sounding midrange I've ever used. It will play from around 300hz up to 20khz. It's the only speaker I've ever had to turn down 20khz on my eq. That speaker is amazing.
> 
> The problem is not a lot of companies (right now only Peter at the audiophile) will spend the money to build a coaxial that is of high quality.


I heard Peter's speakers in his BMW - they did sound amazing!


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## mda185 (Dec 14, 2006)

I am kind of surprised no one has mentioned the Fountek FR88EX 3" full range driver. I know the subject line is coaxials but if you can get 200 to 20K Hz from one driver, why bother with a tweeter? Just cross it over to a good midbass and avoid all the issues that go with crossing over to a tweeter. There is some very encouraging test data on this 3" full range over on Zaph|Audio. Power handling is good if crossed over 24dB/octave at 200 Hz. Frequency response is also very good. He notes some ripples in freq response in the upper octaves but I doubt that will be audible to most folks in a car environment. This driver will fit in many dashboard locations and probably outperform most 4" coaxial solutions. The only drawback I can see is that if you are after maximum SPL, this driver isn't going to survive long. At any reasonable listening level, they will be fine if crossed over correctly. I bought a pair and am fabricating some small enclusures now.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

a fullrange is a lot different than a coaxials.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Polk Audio MM6501 6-3/4" Component Systems Car Speakers Car Audio Car Audio, Video, & GPS Navigation - Sonic Electronix
The new Polk gear that has came out looks really solid and their components allow for coaxial alignments.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Hmmm, very interesting topic. 

So you guys are saying a 5 1/4" - 7"driver or maybe a 4" with a similar design to that of the KEF UniQ, with the tweeter basically mount flush with the cone/where the dust cap would be, that is of high-end design, but at great price point would be the rav?

If this is the case let me see what I can work on for you guys.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Doesn't Kef have a patent on the "Uni-Q" design, though?


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## autofile (Oct 25, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> If Peter at the audiophile came out with a 6 1/2" version of his 3" (and it was as good as the 3"), it would be in my car in a heartbeat as my entire front stage.


Well, now that you mention it............


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Ok I am about to get serious about attempting this. I am debating the morel ovation XO 4" Does anyone have any experience with them?


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Here-I-Come said:


> Hmmm, very interesting topic.
> 
> So you guys are saying a 5 1/4" - 7"driver or maybe a 4" with a similar design to that of the KEF UniQ, with the tweeter basically mount flush with the cone/where the dust cap would be, that is of high-end design, but at great price point would be the rav?
> 
> If this is the case let me see what I can work on for you guys.


I'll try anything once. If the price is right, maybe even twice 

I wonder how cost effective it would be to develop a product such as that? Is that maybe why we don't see such a thing as "high end" coax speakers?

Maybe DIY coax is worth a shot --- i.e. use typical individual drivers, but simply create a mounting bracket for a small format tweeter that bridges the woofer cone, not unlike that Diamond Audio set linked on the first page...

...of course...that would sort of defeating the purpose of using a self-contained unit that doesn't require custom fabrication to install & still sound good. Doh!


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## autofile (Oct 25, 2005)

Here-I-Come said:


> Hmmm, very interesting topic.
> 
> So you guys are saying a 5 1/4" - 7"driver or maybe a 4" with a similar design to that of the KEF UniQ, with the tweeter basically mount flush with the cone/where the dust cap would be, that is of high-end design, but at great price point would be the rav?
> 
> If this is the case let me see what I can work on for you guys.


Something like this perhaps?


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## splicer (Oct 4, 2008)

mda185 said:


> I am kind of surprised no one has mentioned the Fountek FR88EX 3" full range driver. I know the subject line is coaxials but if you can get 200 to 20K Hz from one driver, why bother with a tweeter?


Because a 3" driver is going to start beaming around 6KHz, so you need to have it on-axis.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

autofile said:


> Something like this perhaps?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

autofile said:


> Something like this perhaps?


Yup, I think that is what those of us looking are looking for. That thing is gorgeous


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

autofile said:


> Something like this perhaps?



In my best Popeye the Sailor man's voice: " Well blow me down"


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

autofile said:


> Something like this perhaps?



I just ruined a perfectly good pair of pants


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I touched myself some too.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Morel Integra Ovation XO 6 - Mobile Audio - Car Audio & Electronics Magazine
For anyone looking into the idea here is a good review showing that good results can be expected at least. Looking for the 4s right now

Autofile: AWESOME!!!


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

The only reason most coaxes get a bad rap is because they are usually lower models. Try listening to the Boston SPZ60 in coax configuration and I am sure you will be impressed. I am running them in doors now and may move them as a coax to the kicks.

Also, MB Quart used to make a tweeter bridge for one of their higher lines.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Anyone tried the Seas coaxial yet? 

SEAS Prestige T18REX/XFC (H1353) 7" Coaxial, clear Cone from Madisound


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

There are advantages and disadvantages to every type of coaxial (post-mounted tweeter, bridge-mounted tweeter, Pole-mounted tweeter)... Proof is in the pudding... listen to them.

A premium coaxial can sound every bit as good as a premium component system. I use the JL Audio C5 coaxials a lot as main speakers.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

The Autophile 3" is perfect for my system I'm designing. Just not sure I want to swing that sort of cash. I've also considered the Morel 4" point source as well.

Unfortunately I'm a big fan of cheap drivers that sound good so I may buy the Tang Band 3" point source just to see how they are. At less than $50 for the pair, they may just surprise me anyway.


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## d5sc (Aug 14, 2007)

autofile said:


> Something like this perhaps?


Peter, 

Ohhhh, so that's what you were talking about at Marv's BBQ! Very nice !


George


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## jpswanberg (Jan 14, 2009)

I've used 3 coaxes (and am presently using them): Kef uni-Q160, ID 64 and my Dynaudio 240Gt's in a quasi-coax mode (the tweeter mounted in the middle of the speaker grill. In terms of sq, the quality of the drivers and the install contributed the most (as in all installs ). Theoretically, you do want all the sound coming from the same place (as opposed to the tweeters being 3 feet away from mids. Not saying you can't get good sound that way (and I have used i successfully myself (xr650's run actively off a 300/4, Mr. Smith ). Autofile, poly cone and 1" silk tweeter? I would love an updated Q160.

John


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## tdiantonio (May 8, 2007)

I in am getting ready to try something like this in a family member's car (1994 Honda Civic). I will be using an older a/d/s 246ix 6.5 convertable set in a coax type mounting. Not sure if I am going to mount it in the kick panels or the doors. I will let you know how it goes.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

You can improve the sound of some of the cheaper coaxes by swapping the built-in x-over (which is usually just a amall cheap electrolytic cap that introduces a 6dB/oct filter in line with the tweeter that's way too high in frequency) for a more capable x-over.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

invecs said:


> Anyone tried the Seas coaxial yet?
> 
> SEAS Prestige T18REX/XFC (H1353) 7" Coaxial, clear Cone from Madisound


Yes, I've listened to it in car and home. 

That car below had it in ported 11 L. Good tonal balance, good highs, midbass going to 40Hz. Midrange/tweeter transition was its major problem. 

The good thing about it is you can DIY a crossover to make the transition a little smoother.


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## dsg74 (Jan 7, 2008)

Anybody have experience with Clarion's Platinum or Ultra Components Series? They look like they could fit the bill. Here's a pic of the 4 inch Platinums.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

^ I don't see any pics


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## dsg74 (Jan 7, 2008)

AAAAAAA said:


> ^ I don't see any pics


Tried a different link so pic should work now. If not, here's a link to them on Crutchfield


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

dsg74 said:


> Anybody have experience with Clarion's Platinum or Ultra Components Series? They look like they could fit the bill. Here's a pic of the 4 inch Platinums.


I saw those a while back and considered them myself. I never did buy them though.


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

I hate this site. Frig putting ideas in my head. Spend more $.


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## trebor (Jun 30, 2008)

dsg74 said:


> Anybody have experience with Clarion's Platinum or Ultra Components Series? They look like they could fit the bill. Here's a pic of the 4 inch Platinums.


I wish they had those when I did my last system, just what I was looking for back then.


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## Black616 (Apr 25, 2008)

03blueSI said:


> The only reason most coaxes get a bad rap is because they are usually lower models. Try listening to the Boston SPZ60 in coax configuration and I am sure you will be impressed. I am running them in doors now and may move them as a coax to the kicks.
> 
> Also, MB Quart used to make a tweeter bridge for one of their higher lines.


I second the Boston's. I used the older Z6's in the coaxial configuration and they were awesome. I wish I still had them


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

Ran the Memphis Sync 8's in my car for about 18mos. Sound pretty good. Could sound better if they were ran active.....but never got around to it.

Tried the KISS thing for a while....single 4-channel amp running the Sync's passive and the rears bridged to a sub.


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## mcsoul (Jul 23, 2008)

Aurasound had some good braxial's.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

dsg74 said:


> Anybody have experience with Clarion's Platinum or Ultra Components Series? They look like they could fit the bill. Here's a pic of the 4 inch Platinums.


PASMAG reviewd them, didn't seem all that impressed, I suppose that might have something to do with their MSRP but since they can be had for around 100 these are probably a worthy consideration.










Full review here:Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Clarion MultiFit Speaker Set

Nice find.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I read that review a while back and it did seem like they didn't like them very much, but as usual wouldn't come right out and say it.

I was a little leery of Clarion speakers anyway, and that test sort of confirmed my suspicion of them.

I'd rather try the Tang Bands for a lot less money. PE only lists their 3" point source, but TB's website shows a 4" also.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

I read a personal review of those (clarion) somewhere (might even be on here?) and they said they liked the low end and were overall decent for ****bay prices but seamed poorly constructed or something to that effect.....But we all no how some of those reviews go!!!!!


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## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

FYI there is a KEF Q130 on ebay right now. 

KEF KAR Q130S Coaxial 5.25" 2 ways Uni-Q - eBay (item 150359108275 end time Jul-21-09 19:02:56 PDT)

Also has the Q160s

http://cgi.ebay.com/KEF-KAR-Q160S-C...rkparms=65:12|66:3|39:1|72:1205|293:1|294:100


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

89grand said:


> I read that review a while back and it did seem like they didn't like them very much, but as usual wouldn't come right out and say it.
> 
> I was a little leery of Clarion speakers anyway, and that test sort of confirmed my suspicion of them.
> 
> I'd rather try the Tang Bands for a lot less money. PE only lists their 3" point source, but TB's website shows a 4" also.


What TB speaker is that?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

AAAAAAA said:


> What TB speaker is that?


This one.

Parts-Express.com:Tang Band W3-1723SA 3" Coaxial Midrange | Tang Band W3-1723SA Coaxial Midrange Tang Band TB Speakers compact speaker driver

Tang Bands website shows a 4" version as well, but PE doesn't have it listed for whatever reason.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

rexroadj said:


> Ok I am about to get serious about attempting this. I am debating the morel ovation XO 4" Does anyone have any experience with them?


I have some experience with them. I thought they sounded effin' awesome in the dash of a Eurovan off an audison 4.5.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I had quite a few good daily drivers way back with coax. The issue was trying a bunch of them until you hit on the right ones...or that is what I did. The infinity worked well back then for a nice price, some clarion were good for a really low price, even sansui and of course many alpines. But they make a new model so often I'd have to try them all again in a couple years. Some of the good ones were with 6x9 in front doors, that solves the issue of lacking midbass and I wonder if that is the idea with the coax 8s in Euro cars now. I had a truck with 3.5 coax in the dash and 6.5 MB in doors that worked nice, I forget the brand. We even made our own at times, swapped the tweeters we wanted into a good mid and changed the xovers. I've used more comps since because I could mount/aim the tweeters better in most installs, or it was easier to swap them to something else. Swapping tweeters I did a lot, often ran no EQ back then because most were so noisy.

For whatever reason usually lower power coax had better sound and more bass/midbass. A less bright sounding one in a board was often better in a car. Also got into boats later and used a lot of coax there but the use is a little different, they need to be beer-proof as well.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Thanks VP. It really seams like a great setup for my truck. I can put some of the 9" elate mids in the doors and the ovations in the dash. I really like having my mids and tweets on my dash/pillars vs kicks for me. Plus I have a lot of clumsy and just ignorant people that pounced on them before. I have had great results with them up high. If I can get a good price for my oz 3ways then I will definately put some $ into it.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

autofile said:


> Something like this perhaps?


OMG - I would luv to hear that!


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Now that I think about it, I seem to recall hearing some of those Boston models on a board at a Cartunes nearby, and the sounded very nice about 30 deg. off-axis IIRC. At the time though, I dismissed them because they were quite pricey.

As for the hear and now, I'm thinking that it may be worth it to try some 6.5" in modified OEM spot coax w/ passive x-over. If that doesn't sound good, then it's time to go active with custom kick panels.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

You know what? The more I look into it, the more I think that anything that involves a tweeter mounted low in the doors or kicks would wreak havoc on the soundstage. It might make imaging a little easier when you can manipulate the pathlengths physically like that, but if the stage is too low, what good is it? 

This thread is especially interesting.


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## Kramer (Mar 7, 2008)

I've been looking into running Coax's up front for a temporary solution until I have the funds for a fully active setup. 
For coaxs though, it's tough trying to find quality pieces.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

I should mention that the 4" integras I liked in the Eurovan were dash mounted...

Yes, most coaxes are not quality. The Morel Integras are the best I've heard and they are hardly a path to saving money. After that it's tough.


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## Kramer (Mar 7, 2008)

I've been surfing around, but can't find anything inside a reasonable price range (100-200, any suggestions for a coax that can handle 70-100 rms, with a decent woofer?
I was looking at these:
(I had to cut out part of the hyperlink, due to me having less than 5 posts)
woofersetc.com/p2716/D661i--Diamond-Audio-65"-Integrated-Components-Speakers.htm

and they do look like they might do the trick, but I'm not sure how good the woofer is. I'm not too picky about tweeters, but my musical tastes tend to demand a lot from the woofer (lots of mid-high volume distortion).

Any suggestions?

Thanks!


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

That DA set was actually linked earlier in the thread. They look promising, that's for sure.

The primary problem being illustrated here is that there just aren't many quality coax available that handle a lot of power.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Chaos said:


> What do you think? Is there some specific reason *not* to use co-axial component speakers for a front stage? Can coax even really produce SQ on par with components?
> 
> I have been into autosound for a long time now, and I cannot say definitively that the sound of coax speakers is inherently inferior to separates. As a matter of fact, it has always seemed to me that if nothing else, coax at least offer equal path lengths, which is one of the primary hurdles to developing a decent soundstage.
> 
> ...


If anyone has some time to kill, download a copy of the polar response simulator from FRD consortium. After you spend 30 minutes playing with it, you'll see why it's so difficult to create a soundstage in the car.

Basically the frequency response of your 2-way changes dramatically when your tweeter is more than 2-3" away from your woofer. (Obviously our left and right speakers must have identical response, otherwise we don't have a soundstage.)

Unfortunately coaxials aren't the ultimate solution, because the response of your system degrades VERY badly when they're not equidistant. So putting the tweeter in FRONT of the woofer isn't the best solution.

Putting the tweeter in the neck of the voice coil works nicely.

Also, if anyone's been following my Unity horn threads, it takes the coaxial concept to it's ultimate level:

Twelve Inch Woofers In My Dash - CARSOUND.COM Forum

diyAudio Forums - Another Unity Horn - Page 1
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/60146-creating-perfect-soundstage.html


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## dirthog (Jun 21, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> No problems getting midbass for me. Good solid door install pwns allNow about biamping, I still want to use my tweeters in the dash locations to bring the stage up...or at least try to so there MUST be a functional passive in the coaxial. I'm drawing a blank on coaxials that sound laid back. The only ones I can think of that I truly liked were the Diamond d6 series and they have that funky grill the tweeter sits on.


Laid back Coaxials = Polk SR's 

Polk Audio - SR Series - Mobile Speakers

I switched to coaxial a few months ago and I'm sticking with it. I couldn't get it to sound right with the tweeter in a number of different locations and mids in the doors.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Vigarisa said:


> Yes, I've listened to it in car and home.
> 
> That car below had it in ported 11 L. Good tonal balance, good highs, midbass going to 40Hz. Midrange/tweeter transition was its major problem.
> 
> The good thing about it is you can DIY a crossover to make the transition a little smoother.


Do you see where the woofer extends out from the door? That will create a dip and a peak in the frequency response at 482hz, 964hz, and 1928hz.

The "midrange/tweeter transition" problem you are hearing is likely due to that.

If anyone on the forum is interested in reading more about this, google "baffle step" or "baffle step compensation."

Here's my favorite reference on the subject: www.quarter-wave.com/General/BSC_Sizing.pdf 

"Over the past few years, I have become very aware of the baffle step response phenomenon associated with drivers mounted in rectangular shaped baffles. My first quarter wavelength designs suffered from a relatively depressed bass response and a dominating midrange and high end response..."


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> If anyone has some time to kill, download a copy of the polar response simulator from FRD consortium. After you spend 30 minutes playing with it, you'll see why it's so difficult to create a soundstage in the car.
> 
> Basically the frequency response of your 2-way changes dramatically when your tweeter is more than 2-3" away from your woofer. (Obviously our left and right speakers must have identical response, otherwise we don't have a soundstage.)
> 
> ...


Good stuff. 

Right about now, I'm primarily wondering if it would be at all possible to mount the tweeter closer to the woofer in the door, and still maintain some semblance of a decent soundstage. Having the tweeter mounted directly in front of the woofer, especially low on the door doesn't make as much sense as I initially thought it would when I started this thread. then again, with enough tuning, maybe it can be done.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> If anyone has some time to kill, download a copy of the polar response simulator from FRD consortium. After you spend 30 minutes playing with it, you'll see why it's so difficult to create a soundstage in the car.
> 
> Basically the frequency response of your 2-way changes dramatically when your tweeter is more than 2-3" away from your woofer. (Obviously our left and right speakers must have identical response, otherwise we don't have a soundstage.)Unfortunately coaxials aren't the ultimate solution, because the response of your system degrades VERY badly when they're not equidistant. So putting the tweeter in FRONT of the woofer isn't the best solution.
> 
> ...


Agreed! 

I always scratch my head when I see how many people on this forum are putting their tweeters on the A pillar, and leaving the woofer in the door. Supposedly this is in the name of "stage height", but I think it causes far more problems than it solves.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Maybe why many years back my no-brainer setup was always a dome tweet right next to the mid. Get good off axis with the dome mounted flat on baffle, pretty much a typical bookshelf speaker setup.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Chaos said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> Right about now, I'm primarily wondering if it would be at all possible to mount the tweeter closer to the woofer in the door, and still maintain some semblance of a decent soundstage. Having the tweeter mounted directly in front of the woofer, especially low on the door doesn't make as much sense as I initially thought it would when I started this thread. then again, with enough tuning, maybe it can be done.


The thing which has helped me create a good soundstage, and good tonality, is to think in terms of wavelengths.

For example, 2khz is seven inches long, so ANY mistake you make around there is basically going to ruin your whole setup. If you can't get 2khz right, there aren't any band aids to fix it.

But the lower you go, the wavelengths get big in a hurry, and now you have some room for error.

250hz is FIFTY FOUR inches long. So you have a big fat margin of error when it comes to that octave. An inch or two won't make much difference.

If you've seen my systems, you'll notice that's a common theme, I'm always designing the entire system around two octaves. If you can get 500hz to 2khz correct, everything else is easy.

Unfortunately it's never that easy 

A 3" will cover the whole range, but has no dynamics.
A two way has dynamic power, but the seperation distance and the crossover introduce a ton of problems.

And so the struggle continues...


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

How about a pair of speakers Like This for the highs and Something like this  for the midbass, foregoing a dedicated tweeter entirely.

I would put the woofer low in the door, and the extended range driver right above it, strategically aimed through trial & error.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

another blast from the past, kinda...... could be nice as well!
EXACT6.2 - Soundstream 6.5" 2 Way Coaxial Speaker System


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

rexroadj said:


> another blast from the past, kinda...... could be nice as well!
> EXACT6.2 - Soundstream 6.5" 2 Way Coaxial Speaker System


If those are still the original design, they are a nice set 


For the time being, I have abandoned the coax idea in favor of components. Not that I don't intend to try it at some point, but I just haven't found anything to try that appeals to me yet.

Eventually, if I can find a nice set of high-quality coax or 'point source' full range speakers, that could very well be the next step - both for the sake of simplicity & the pursuit of SQ. Whether or not those two things are mutually exclusive remains to be seen.

Recently, I have been experimenting with a small-format tweeter placement on various points on the door, closer to the midwoofer, which is mounted in the typical off-axis-low-forward position. As I suspected, the stage was immediately "lower" compared to the sail panel location, but the overall freq. response and the general SQ of the front stage seemed to be dramatically improved by the new arrangement. 

Subjectively, and perhaps surprisingly, I find that this produces a more enjoyable listening experience. Based on what I'm hearing right now, I would have to say that I don't care nearly as much as I thought I did about where the music "seems" to be coming from, so long as it sounds good to me. That is to say, now it just sounds more "musical" and less distorted than when the tweeters were mounted higher.

Next, I plan to manipulate the level and phase characteristics of the front stage drivers in order to evaluate what effect that might have, and basically disregard the whole stage height issue for now.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Do you see where the woofer extends out from the door? That will create a dip and a peak in the frequency response at 482hz, 964hz, and 1928hz.
> 
> The "midrange/tweeter transition" problem you are hearing is likely due to that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. Although the speaker is not in a rectangular shaped baffle, and inside the box it is filled in a way that avoids frequencies cancellations. It's a whole other shape inside, that my lack of English knowledge won't help to describe. We did the crossover and tweaks inside the car, and got a tonal balance and transition as we wanted.

Actually the hard part was positioning of speakers, coming from our knees. It had created a "strange" soundstage. But that car was made 6 years ago, we have improved in some theories since.

I'll jump to your projects now, they seem very interesting


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## AWilliams (Mar 28, 2007)

I had used an older set of Morel Intergras in my Excursion for a few years until recently one started buzzing. They sounded really, really good. Got them for dirt cheap too. Was gonna replace them with newer models only to discover they run about $450-550. I ended up getting a new set of HAT Clarus 5.1 for $325 so I couldn't complain. Love them still for their simplicity of install.


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

I have been thinking about using 4" Morel Integra Ovation XO from front midrange and highs. These can be played down to 100hz and can be used in active. For the midbass plan to add Peerless SLS6 or CSS SDX7 or Dynaudio MW162GT for running them from 50hz to 200hz. 
These are for Jetta as coax will be in doors, and Midbass at the lower part of the doors. What I would like to know how will the response be from this type of setup? From My understanding Morel I.ovation should work well as it would act as single point source for all the vocals and highs. Running them active would mean each mid and tweeter will handle about 75+75rms respectively. Also adding a TA on these could make a good difference.

Is this worth trying?


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

I definitely think it sounds like a great situation for that setup and well worth the shot!. That is almost exactly the setup I was debating. My 4" coax would be on my dash and eights in the doors. I am going a different route only because some other great stuff pretty much fell on my lap! I think that setup could yield some fantastic results pending install and what ever you choose to use for the rest of the system. I am sure a lot of people dissagree but I feel like one component is only as good as the one before or after it. (kinda like a ferrari with $30 tires!) Please let us know if you do it and how it works out!


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

The Idea is to run the 4" Coax in active but by spliting the channel of "Highs" using Y cable thereby powering the 4 channel amp where the front 2 channel of the amp will power the "Left Mid and tweeter of Coax" and the other 2 channel will power the Right Mid and tweeter of Coax". 

Than Power the midbass with atleast 150RMS each. Am not sure which Midbass will do a good job. Trying to figure out between Elate SW6, DynAudio MW162Gt, CSS SDX7 (as it's the XBL^2) or the Peerless SLS6. 

Though have read SLS6 does a great job but not sure if it stands in front of Morel and Dyn in terms Quality of bass produced. looking for something that would kick hard. 

Also, I feel having the mids and tweeter in doors will benefit more as against having them in A piller as I feel the reflection by mounting on A piller will be more than that of having in doors. Also, here the coax acts as a single reference point, more like fullrange speaker for the vocals and highs where it can take care of frequency from as low as 125 or 160hz to all the way up, anything lower than that Midbass can take care. Morel IO XO coax has a different design as compared to the conventional coax available. I suppose dispersion of highs in this case should be better. Coax could be just as good as the comps but I have noticed the coax are not rated higher as comps do and I suppose that could be one of the drawbacks. 
I guess nothing can be said about how it would sound until I try it.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

^I think it sounds like a good idea, I say give it a try.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I used my JBL 504 Gti for years. It is a coax with the tweet mounted on a bridge above the mid. I am thinking of going back to them but going active. They sounded as good as almost every componet I listened to.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

the jbl coax's are very good sounding imo.


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## jedc (May 4, 2009)

I listened to a set of the JBL power series 6-1/2 coax the other day at the local stereo shop. They sounded really good for coaxials and they were only running off headunit power.


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## dsg74 (Jan 7, 2008)

I just kept coming back to this thread and I decided I might as well go for it. So today I pulled the trigger on some PG RSd4s. I read enough good reviews of the components and coaxials that I figured for $40 bucks I couldn't go wrong. If they sound decent, they solve a few problems for me. They cost next to nothing and should be a little easier to install in my a pillars. Now if I can figure out if the SLS6.5s will fit in the factory locations with out modifying the Explorers door panels, I'll be all set.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have a set of KEF 5.25s for $150 shipped BNIB, and people say they can't find a nice coax for a good price?


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Here
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ep-point-source-component-set.html#post799195


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

If they sound good, then that would be a great deal.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My KEFs are only a little bit more money.


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## MarkB (Jun 11, 2007)

Anyone tried the Seas Excel C16 Coax?

Seas recommend a XO design but the resultant FR looks less than ideal.

Some in car measurements and an active XO / equalisation might give good results.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

^I haven't seen that one. Link?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I think Focal's 165KRC's sound fantastic. 

Nice smooth sounding kevlar tweeter and high efficiency.

http://www.focal-america.com/extras/specs/k2power/165krc.pdf

Oh yeah, and you could go active with them...


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Well, I went ahead and ordered a set of those PPI 356CS components from the hot deals thread. Ever since I started this topic, I've been looking for a set of decent coax or point-source speakers to experiment with, and since the PPI set is convertible, can be bi-amped and is supposedly of relatively good quality, I figured it was worth the modest expense.

If nothing else, I'm going to try them with the mid in the door & the tweeter installed in three basic locations: coax, sail panel and just above the mid on the door. Once I hear how it sounds with these different configurations, I'll have something more to say on this subject.


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## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

I wonder how something like these (BEYMA 8BX or BEYMA 8XC20) would work? Appears they would need to vent out of the car. I wonder how close the hfd's vc plane is to the woofers'.


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## ChopShop1 (Mar 11, 2009)

I will probably get stoned for saying this(doesn't seem that too many people on here put any value in the new rockford stuff) but I just purchased two pairs of the new Fosgate Power series "coax" they actually have the seperate tweeter mounted to the edge of the drivr mounts. I auditioned these things for like two hours because I had a preconceived notion that they would be crap. I say all this because I was like most people, thinking that you had to buy components to get true good quality sound and the local shop owner spent about two hours showing me why you didn't. They handled great power, sounded very clean, and played a broad range of frequencies. I was very, very surprised. The local shop sold me them for $150 a pair too, which is much less than the $1000 Dynaudio stuff I was looking at. Now I am sure you could make a better set sound amazing, but for the price difference, I think these will be just fine.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

ChopShop1 said:


> Now I am sure you could make a better set sound amazing, but for the price difference, I think these will be just fine.


That is exactly the point of this thread. Yes, this pastime (and even more to the point, this particular forum) is all about how it sounds, regardless of expense, but at what point does the law of diminishing returns apply? 

If you are happy with a set of relatively "modest" coaxials, or whatever you want to call them, then I see no reason not to run them.


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## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Image Dynamics XS stuff on this thread. They can be mounted coaxially as well.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Agreed! I will add this from my experience, although not directly related....I added in the 650imprint from alpine (I am not an alpine fan in anyway shape or form). My system is in shambles right now, all I have in there is a set of quart qtd25s and idq 8s, not a good setup kinda missing a midrange driver! I added this imprint to it, followed the directions to a T and the results were astonishing especially when you consider the drivers being used together. Now the reason I am wasting space on this thread regarding this is because with the technology (processors) we have available to us now we can easily get away with "lack luster?" or "inferior" components and end up with sensational results. Now I am not a fan of processors overall aside from xovers to run active. I love a mcintosh 406 or drz-9255 straight to an amp and a set of 3 ways well setup and active either off amps xovers or some other active setup. I think most processors are used as bandaids to hide, either there "crap" or they just cant put anything in good locations. Which is fine. I guess what I am saying is you can get great results out of quality coaxials as they are but with the addition of something like the imprint you can really make things shine! I know people love to just tinker with stuff and think they can re-invent the wheel and thats cool because that is one way to help progress but that processor is really spot on for a mic'd tuning system if done right. I know I just spent time poo pooing processors, on a thread that has no relevence and just said how great this thing is....I need the nav, BT, dvd, etc..... so I really cant use the drz or mac so I use the "bandaid" and I like it, but would prefer the latter. If they ever make a double din comparable to the two decks I mentioned I would be on it like white on rice! Anyway the moral of the story is if you want to save some money and get good coax's vs really expensive two ways/three ways you can really get the most out of them with the use of this imprint 650. Sorry I ranted about nothing that pertained to this


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## SQAddict (Jul 21, 2009)

I must agree with the previous poster regarding ID's XS line. 

To be honest, Im personally a components guy largely because Ive already spent a rediculous amount of time working on mounting locations and design, etc. But a friend of mine has a system built around ID drivers and it sounds phenomenal. To add insult to injury, he finished his install (himself, from start to finish) in 2 days and it "sounds" almost as good as mine! I was really surprised to see that he ran XS 6x9's in his doors with a second pair (XS 28's, I believe) in the A pillars. Rear stage is an ID component set only because he wanted to keep factory locations. Helix amps, Alpine 505 + H701 rounds out the system. 

Anyway, all this to say that coax's are nothing to scoff at these days - added simplicity does not necessarily mean inferior sound.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

You know, I was very much on the fence about the ID comps. I've had good results with their gear more than once, and I have no doubt that they would be above average at the very least.

Thing is, I'm a sucker for trying new products from brands that I haven' t used before, hence the PPI set. If I don't like them though, I'll be going back to mix & match DIY drivers.


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## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

I have the ID X57 and tweeters. I am in the process of moving the mid locations from the doors to the kicks and was going to use them with my horns, or even try the X57 and tweet mounted coax, or try a B&C 8..... Anyway I temporarily put the mid in the doors, replacing my Dyn 6.5's and they sound better than the Dyn's, especially in the mid range. Haven't tried them in coax mode yet.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

so i'm not the only one thinking about this. personally i have been looking for simpler and simpler solutions. i had these (eclipse sp6910) in my car as part of a temporary setup and they sounded pretty good:










been thinking i might do coax or axial mounted components soon. i think i big issue with moost coax is the crossover which makes the axial comps the more appealing choice to me.


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## jfrosty42 (Jul 4, 2009)

Not exactly cheap, but has anyone heard these?

http://www.focal-fr.com/catalogue-docs/EN/15/files/1408.pdf


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## SQAddict (Jul 21, 2009)

I havent heard any of the Focal coaxials, but I really enjoy their components. Added to that, the Polyglass appears to be the most bang for your buck, with cost increasing exponentially as you step up to the kevlar and Be/Utopia lines. I would be very interested to know how these stack up to the ID's (which run upwards of $600 msrp).


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## NoRegrets (Aug 15, 2009)

ChopShop1 said:


> I will probably get stoned for saying this(doesn't seem that too many people on here put any value in the new rockford stuff) but I just purchased two pairs of the new Fosgate Power series "coax" they actually have the seperate tweeter mounted to the edge of the drivr mounts. I auditioned these things for like two hours because I had a preconceived notion that they would be crap. I say all this because I was like most people, thinking that you had to buy components to get true good quality sound and the local shop owner spent about two hours showing me why you didn't. They handled great power, sounded very clean, and played a broad range of frequencies. I was very, very surprised. The local shop sold me them for $150 a pair too, which is much less than the $1000 Dynaudio stuff I was looking at. Now I am sure you could make a better set sound amazing, but for the price difference, I think these will be just fine.



Would these Fosgate Power series coax speakers sound good off of just the head units 22 rms mosfet watts, or do they require huge power to get them to sing?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

With a piece of backstrap material you can make any component set a co-axial.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

NoRegrets said:


> Would these Fosgate Power series coax speakers sound good off of just the head units 22 rms mosfet watts, or do they require huge power to get them to sing?


I've heard them sound "good enough" off just headunit power. They'd sound better with some good clean power though.


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## vageta (Oct 11, 2006)

> With a piece of backstrap material you can make any component set a co-axial.


This would be true if your tweeter was small enough in comparison to the driver. If you're using a 3-4" mid and have a 1.5" tweeter I'd think it would block too much of the sound. You'd have to use some sort of 0.5" micro tweeter with a flange. Now on a 6.5" I'd say it probably wouldn't be an issue. I'd love to find a way to run my Fountek FR88-ex's in a coaxial setup but they're so small and I have them crossed so high (10k) that it seems anything but the smallest tweeter would be an issue. I'm using the Tang Band ceramics and they have a 1.5" flange so even if I trimmed it down to an inch I think it'd still block far too much.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

while im thinking of it.. one of my fav coax i ever tried was the Eclipse point source. it buries the tweet deep in the cone for no tweeter protrusion.

Eclipse SP6510 6-1/2" Speakers Car Speakers Car Audio Car Audio, Video, & GPS Navigation - Sonic Electronix

but i dont think its neccessarily a "better than average" speaker..


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## MHF (Jan 30, 2009)

i ran KEF KAR 6.5" uniq's with external passives for a year on brax x2000. stage height was ok even. Sounded quite nice, midrange was good but not great. 

I heard the renaissance r5's recently and totally blew me away.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I installed a set of Hertz High Energy coaxials an hour ago, replacing my Focal Access coax. Pics and review in my build thread.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

came back to this thread before i decided to make a buy. grabbed these hi-vi coaxials from madisound:










searched for some reviews but it looks like nobody has used em. i've been wondering about this line since i was looking for some 6.5" coaxials a while back and these 4" just happen to bolt in.

we'll see what happens, just playing around right now really. k.i.s.s. style.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> came back to this thread before i decided to make a buy. grabbed these hi-vi coaxials from madisound:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interested in a review of those HiVi coax's. I almost pulled the trigger on a set myself.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i'll be doing a build thread and will be giving my opinions. however, i have discovered i am not the "golden ear" type and the install will be very basic so it may not be of much help.


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