# Larger Subwoofers = Flabby Bass



## pikers

Always heard this; never believed it. The premise implies that the motor structure is built incorrectly simply because the woofer is larger. Clearly, the same motor is not used on an 8" woofer as a 15" subwoofer. If it were, then we might have an issue from the underpinnings not being suitable for the job. Otherwise, it's a story told to sell two 10s as opposed to one 15". 

I have worked for dealers in years' past who would tell this exact story to impressionable young kids, although they never heard it from me.

Thoughts welcome of course.


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## Blip13

i totally agree, although a 15 produces more and usually lower bass i would never use it in a sq setup, it doesn't have the tonality or the tight punch you get from a 10", i use to love 12" subs but since the 10's are getting a lot better in the power and spl range i have changed the way i look at it, i have the previous 10" cervin vega v-max and its a pounder relative to size and price, its not the best out there but for a bass heavy music lover it covers what i need and also it fits a lot easier in cars than a 15", to me the flabbiness of a 15" is due to the weight and size of the cone, it makes it slow whereas a 10" is usually lighter and the response is noticeable faster to me, but thats just my thoughts on it.


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## bradsk88

I've heard horror stories of companies using the exact same motor for their 10, 12 and 15" versions of their subs. Although I've never run into it myself.


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## emilimo701

Blip13 said:


> i totally agree, although a 15 produces more and usually lower bass i would never use it in a sq setup, it doesn't have the tonality or the tight punch you get from a 10", i use to love 12" subs but since the 10's are getting a lot better in the power and spl range i have changed the way i look at it, i have the previous 10" cervin vega v-max and its a pounder relative to size and price, its not the best out there but for a bass heavy music lover it covers what i need and also it fits a lot easier in cars than a 15", *to me the flabbiness of a 15" is due to the weight and size of the cone, it makes it slow whereas a 10" is usually lighter and the response is noticeable faster to me*, but thats just my thoughts on it.


NO! no no no no no. That is EXACTLY the type of myth that this forum was intended to disabuse others from. See the thread that I just started 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...myth-more-cone-area-=-deeper-slower-bass.html


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## redwave designs

I never bothered running 15"s or 18"s for that matter. I would guess however that if the speaker / cabinet were built properly and the right amplifier were used, a larger diameter sub should sound great....right?


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## emilimo701

bradsk88 said:


> I've heard horror stories of companies using the exact same motor for their 10, 12 and 15" versions of their subs. Although I've never run into it myself.


This is true for many well-respected lines of subwoofers. Why is this horrific? Some examples:

Fi
RE Audio
Digital Designs
DC Audio
Incriminator Audio
TC Sounds


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## mikey7182

Blip13 said:


> i totally agree, although a 15 produces more and usually lower bass i would never use it in a sq setup, it doesn't have the tonality or the tight punch you get from a 10", i use to love 12" subs but since the 10's are getting a lot better in the power and spl range i have changed the way i look at it, i have the previous 10" cervin vega v-max and its a pounder relative to size and price, its not the best out there but for a bass heavy music lover it covers what i need and also it fits a lot easier in cars than a 15", to me the flabbiness of a 15" is due to the weight and size of the cone, it makes it slow whereas a 10" is usually lighter and the response is noticeable faster to me, but thats just my thoughts on it.


Did you only read the title of the thread and then post? This thread makes my head hurt. In fact, this entire section makes my head hurt. These threads seem to bring more ignorance out of the woodwork than dispel the rumors at which they are aimed.

Can anyone post a rational reason as to why they think a larger woofer would sound more sloppy/boomy/flabby than a smaller woofer? A reason besides "that's what I've always heard" or "that's what the guys at Best Buy told me" would be greatly appreciated.


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## ANT

I think the title itself was an example of a myth..
Not an example of a dispelled myth..

EDIT - NM....


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## Blip13

i gave my honest opinion, no need to abuse me for that


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## FLYONWALL9

emilimo701 said:


> This is true for many well-respected lines of subwoofers. Why is this horrific? Some examples:
> 
> Fi
> RE Audio
> Digital Designs
> DC Audio
> Incriminator Audio
> TC Sounds


Another example
Phoenix Gold XMAX 8,10,12's

I still have a pair of the 8's. 

I'm ALMOST positive the early Polk DB's did this also. I think if you
really looked around you will find it very common to use the same
mag's throughout a line of drivers.


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## Blip13

@redwave, yes, you are right, any sub of decent make in the correct enclosure coupled to the correct amplifier and setup right for the car and personal taste of music and volume would sound great, but it also depends on source and other attributes of the install.


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## Sully

the myth that larger woofers=flabby bass is probably because large woofers require tons of box and vent surface to work & sound correct, cars are notoriously short on the space needed for this. That doesn't stop anyone from building inadequate boxes for 18's because that's what they wanted to use. 2 10's in the right size box will most definitely sound better then any 15 or 18 in a box that is way to small for it.

I do concert sound for a living, and 18's have been the standard for Subs for a long time, Never have i heard the word flabby used to describe the sound of them Some vendors are now using triple 21's which i've mixed on and they hit harder then anything i have ever heard.


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## Blip13

you a soundengineer sully?


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## Sully

Blip13 said:


> you a soundengineer sully?


Yes, FOH!


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## Blip13

Haha, im also one, just on a much smaller scale, bars, small festivals etc


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## BoonDoggie

@ Blip13: I'll apologize if you felt picked at for you response, but as emilimo701 noted, your response is exactly why this thread (and others) exists. I think, personally that you confuse the term for deep bass (20 - 50hz IMO) for punchy bass (90hz - up). Deep bass has never sounded punchy due to the nature of the bass. example: a kick drum is about as punchy as the term gets, yet most of the punch is in the 90 hz up area. Now in a few of my systems that have had larger woofers, I've usually crossed them over below 80 hz, and have the lower midrange spit out by decent sized midwoofers or even decent midranges. A few 6" in a small cabin with enough power has plenty of punch above 90 hz, I would not need a sub for that. Hell, in my project studio, a 13x11 room, I have a pair of powered monitors with 60 watts to each 5 1/4 woofer, and that room frankly is too punchy. Not much below 50hz, but awesome above that.
I think this is where the concept of flabby became relevant in audio, as a deep bass can hardly be defined as punchy. I would think of the frequencies that larger subs commit to as present and forceful. My .02.

EDIT: just read where you guys were noting each other as sound engineers, awesome, I'm kinda one on a low level or so. I remember what I was always told about subwoofers that always seems to get lost in the mix: A subwoofer does one thing and that play lower frequencies. Not louder, but lower. 90% of music comes from frequencies above 80-90 hz. If you lowpass crossover music steeply 24db or so, the resultant sound is a simple thudding sound, with little to no character. Thats what subwoofers do. The really aren't drivers with sound definition because most sound in that range hardly has definition, which tends to express the woofer as flabby.


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## jhmeg2

my $0.02, I do think that an 8" or 10" sub in a sealed box will have quicker response than an 18" in a sealed box. There is less mass to move... this goes along with the theory that round speakers sound better than oblong speakers, due to the sides moving quicer than the ends and thus the cone being out of shap. I would not say flabby, but not as tight and punchy yes. people that listen to metal generaly have 10"s or 12"s, not 15"s and 18". people who listen to a lot of bassy music, may use 15''s and 18"s because of the lower freqs the cone does not need to move as fast. like I said just my $0.02....


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## Miniboom

jhmeg2 said:


> my $0.02, I do think that an 8" or 10" sub in a sealed box will have quicker response than an 18" in a sealed box. There is less mass to move... this goes along with the theory that round speakers sound better than oblong speakers, due to the sides moving quicer than the ends and thus the cone being out of shap. I would not say flabby, but not as tight and punchy yes. people that listen to metal generaly have 10"s or 12"s, not 15"s and 18". people who listen to a lot of bassy music, may use 15''s and 18"s because of the lower freqs the cone does not need to move as fast. like I said just my $0.02....


Sorry, but I don't think your 2 cents are pretty worthless. 

An 18" woofer will, among other things, demand a stiffer and therefore heavier cone to sound as clean "SQ-wise" with little distortion like a smaller subwoofer. But, this is normally accounted for in big subs from _good_ manufacturers, because they understand that a bad subwoofer is a bad subwoofer no matter the size of it.

Also, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the enclosure is important, and some manufacturers tend to LIE when they recommend enclosures.

Also, people who "hate" big subwoofers because thery're "slow" and not "punchy" og "tight" enough sounding, need to understand that "tight and punchy" has little or nothing to do with sub-bass. The "tight and punchy" sound isn't found below 50-60hz. At 80hz were getting closer... So a big subwoofer in a good ported enclosure, crossed over and tuned low, will produce a lot of deep bass, not midbass. If the midbass speakers are bad, bad installed or even absent, the lacking/bad midbass is wrongly blamed on the subwoofer.

Now, if the ones complaining about slow 18"s got a listen to a _well built 18" in a well built enclosure, and decent midbass drivers covering the midbass area_, the myth should be less prone to live on.

But off course it's much easier to whine and ignore one's poor box building skills and wrong sound preferences, and then blame everyting on the big, bad subwoofer. 

PS: What rock/metal-people (I'm one of them) have in their cars is one thing, but does heavy rock/metal concerts have piles of 10" subwoofers? I've surely seen 18" woofers on those stages...


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## EGSMachine

bradsk88 said:


> I've heard horror stories of companies using the exact same motor for their 10, 12 and 15" versions of their subs. Although I've never run into it myself.


when i started messing with car audio in the early 90's, i would get old speakers from friends/aquaintances. it was very common to find a similarly sized motor on a 15 as a 10 or 8 even across seemingly dissimilar brands. a couple i hashed together had the same size VCs. i came to the conclusion that they were just rebranded, or that there are only so many differnt ways to do the same thing.


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## Blip13

@Miniboom, just for interest sake.

Products - CDR 210 F - HK Audio Concert Sound


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## Blip13

@jhmeg2, would you say the Boston acoustic spg555 is a bad subwoofer due to its shape?


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## 22689

mikey7182 said:


> Did you only read the title of the thread and then post? This thread makes my head hurt. In fact, this entire section makes my head hurt. These threads seem to bring more ignorance out of the woodwork than dispel the rumors at which they are aimed.
> 
> Can anyone post a rational reason as to why they think a larger woofer would sound more sloppy/boomy/flabby than a smaller woofer? A reason besides "that's what I've always heard" or "that's what the guys at Best Buy told me" would be greatly appreciated.



I don't want to write a big Ole Article here - Mostly because of the head ache factor you mentioned above. LOL 

So Let's just shorten the entire thing down to this VERY important thing that is Totally over looked by beginners all the time.

BASIC PHYSICS


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## tornaido_3927

Miniboom said:


> Now, if the ones complaining about slow 18"s got a listen to a _well built 18" in a well built enclosure, and decent midbass drivers covering the midbass area_, the myth should be less prone to live on.


I wish there were some way to actually get people to understand how important this ^^^ is via the interwebz!


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## 22689

That's no joke sir. 

The best sub in the world will sound like CRAPOLA in the wrong box. 

And that is part of the reason competition is so much fun!


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## McDizzle

My God people, how many times must we go through this? lol

Bigger subs _tend_ to go lower. Lower notes are perceived as boomier and sloppy, especially without adequate midbass up front. The "fastness" you are looking for should mostly be coming from your massive midbass drivers being loud enough to keep up with a massive 18 incher's output. No, not because they are smaller, but because that is the range they were designed to play.

All subs are "fast" enough to keep up with the music, you just perceive it as sloppy because you spent $2000 on 4 18" subs that play .004% of the frequency range very loud and then have one pair of 6.5 inchers up front drowning in bass. If your bass is sloppy:

Turn your f%$cking sub down or get 6 dedicated midbass drivers and throw them up front. Or just learn ho to tune better, get some time alignment and blend your drivers better. I have the rainbow vanadium kick series and 1 12" Dayton DVC sub. The kicks have the most amazing midbass output I have ever heard, but I still have to turn my sub down a lot. My sub control goes from -15 to +15 and it's probably at 0 right now. Any higher starts sounding a bit "muddy" and "flappy". I used to like loud bass, then what I realized later was I really liked loud midbass.


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## tornaido_3927

Even if I turn my subs up they dont sound muddy or flappy, because they're in the right enclosure.


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## Scott Buwalda

Judging a subwoofer's "speed" in isolation to itself doesn't render much discussion, as long as the impulse is contained to about 25 ms or less at 20 Hz. But judging a subwoofer's "speed" with respect to its ability to "blend" in a multi-way system with different-sized drivers covering different musical spectrums, which all of us have, is quite different. In this case, there are three important considerations: transient response, group delay, and impulse response. 

A tweeter has a mass of less than a gram, while a large subwoofer might have a mass of 50 grams or more. Looking at it strictly from a Mms standpoint, which is going to "react" first with an impulse, the tweeter or the subwoofer? This is simple physics and is not a myth. Then add delay encountered by physical location the car - a tweeter might be 75 cm from your ears, and the subwoofer, in the trunk, is 300 cm. Then add an appreciable amount of group delay courtesy of your subwoofer enclosure of choice (all enclosures introduce some level of group delay); a 4th order vented arrangement or 5th order passively radiated arrangement might net a group delay of 30 ms or more at 20 Hz.

Now add all three, since they are cumulative effects.

Time distortion is a fact, not a myth.


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## Z80_Man

Maybe most people play those huge subwoofers at too high frequencies. They were initially intended to reproduce infra-bass, so speed shouldn't be a real concern.

Of course, a 8" subwoofer can be used to produce excellent kickbass, but now we're somewhat going out of the infra-bass range.

Anyway, it's mostly about the subwoofer qualities (membrane rigidity and electrical characteristics) and the way it's mounted in its enclosure.

Closed enclosures also barely produce flabby bass... Though badly tuned ones may lead to unwanted resonances and shake the membrane at some frequencies.

At the opposite, bass-reflex enclosures are more prone to produce flabby bass - once again, an appropriate port tuning should solve the problem, and in all cases, a subsonic filter will help, too.


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## chad

Many pro audio subs in the 18" range will drive nails with nice midbass. Many pro audio midranges are 12" drivers, they are not slow, or flabby. In fact I don't have to time allign my 18" drivers any different than my 12" drivers using SMAART other than the distance from VC center relative to a path-length..


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## Sully

chad said:


> Many pro audio subs in the 18" range will drive nails with nice midbass. Many pro audio midranges are 12" drivers, they are not slow, or flabby. In fact I don't have to time allign my 18" drivers any different than my 12" drivers using SMAART other than the distance from VC center relative to a path-length..


Exactly, 18's work in pro audio because there is no compromise in the enclosure design & size, most Double 18 pro sub boxes are the size of a refrigerator and are crossed over at 80 to 90hz some even higher. Build the right size box and and never complain about your subs again.


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## chad

Therefore we can deduce that driver surface area has little to do with the "sound" of the subwoofer enclosure but motor properties and enclosure design does.


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## Oliver

Which subs with which tweeters ?

1/2 " tweeter
3/4 " tweeter
1 " tweeter
1 1/2 " tweeter
mini-horns
full size horns
ribbon tweeter
planar tweeter
super tweeter


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## 316lvm

I think maybe the problem is people not explaining it properly to those that believe this myth. It comes down to a concept that can be overly simplified for the sake of explainging this. I think that the "response/tightness" that people generally are speaking about is strictly cone speed. They think that for some reason cone speed is all relative to size/mass and has nothing to do with the actually power, to a degree yes a larger mass takes more power/energy to move, however that's like saying a saturn rocket couldn't possibly go faster than a corvette, but I've never seen a corvette do 6,000 miles per hour. So why would someone believe that a cone from a 10" sub would move so much faster than a cone from a 15"-18" sub? Yes there is more resistance due to moving a larger amount of air and also to the larger mass of the moving parts, but all of that can be overcome with more power to make it move as quickly as a smaller sub. Therefore it's strictly in the persons head that there is any difference. This is also the reason subs from the same line are generally require more power the larger they are, they are compensating for the larger mass to ensure that the energy is there to overcome the additional mass. Hope that helped put this one to rest...


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## chad

strap said corvette to the Saturn rocket 

But yeah, good point


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## Miniboom

Blip13 said:


> @Miniboom, just for interest sake.
> 
> Products - CDR 210 F - HK Audio Concert Sound


Nice find! Allow me to quote from the product specification in the link you posted:

"Frequenzgang +/-3 dB: 47 Hz – fx"

So basically that's a subwoofer that stops being a subwoofer 3hz below where I (and in my opinion people in general) LPF my trunk-mounted subwoofers... 50hz. 

Now, I'm not saying that sucks ass, because >50hz is usable in a PA-situation!

I'm just saying if you like a lot of output below 50hz, you've got to increase the displacement by cone area or excursion. And it's the frequencies played that determines if the bass is "flabby" or not, not the larger cone area. You can't make a single 35hz punch sound "tight". It's in the upper bass/midbass the "tight" sound lies.

At high SPL or a very dynamic recording, a good large woofer in the right box will outperform an equally good, but smaller woofer in the right box - *in the sub-bass frequencies*.

Actually, I don't quite get this discussion. Saying large subwoofers are "bad sounding" is like saying "large tweeters = muddy highs", and explaining it by saying how a 1" speaker gives better highs than a 4" speaker.

It's not a fair comparison, as a speaker's physics determine which frequency range it's usable in.

You don't put an 18" woofer in 1cu.ft and expect it to sound good, and you don't put a 10" woofer in 4cu.ft and expect it to do hair tricks @ 25hz.


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## chad

Miniboom said:


> Nice find! Allow me to quote from the product specification in the link you posted:
> 
> "Frequenzgang +/-3 dB: 47 Hz – fx"
> 
> So basically that's a subwoofer that stops being a subwoofer 3hz below where I (and in my opinion people in general) LPF my trunk-mounted subwoofers... 50hz.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that sucks ass, because >50hz is usable in a PA-situation!
> 
> I'm just saying if you like a lot of output below 50hz, you've got to increase the displacement by cone area or excursion.


Negative, you can also increase the mouth dimension. Easily done with the HK as it looks like a sub module for a smaller format Line array, just line a few more up. Even then, 50 cycles flown is not too shabby uncoupled. The floor mounted subs will cover the rest.




chad said:


> Therefore we can deduce that *driver* surface area has little to do with the "sound" of the subwoofer enclosure but motor properties and enclosure design does.



EAW: KF940


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## chad

Instants! Collection -> tada



Miniboom said:


> And it's the frequencies played that determines if the bass is "flabby" or not, not the larger cone area. You can't make a single 35hz punch sound "tight". It's in the upper bass/midbass the "tight" sound lies.


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## 316lvm

It's exactly like a few others have been saying 30Hz=30Hz the size doesn't matter, if it's powered adequately in the proper enclosure it will move at 30Hz when it's being fed the signal to do so, the same as a 10" or even a 1" tweet. The only thing that would change that is not having enough energy to counteract the momentum of the moving mass (which is why a bad enclosure makes a difference because it may have to overcome more momentum than intended because it loses the proper amount resistance provided by the air in the enclosure). If it sounds like crap it's because it's being fed crap (wrong freq's under/overpowered) or it's in a crap enclosure, all other things considered equal the only thing that should change is output based on cone area.


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## subwoofery

Oliver said:


> Which subs with which tweeters ?
> 
> 1/2 " tweeter - 6" sub
> 3/4 " tweeter - 8" sub
> 1 " tweeter - 10" sub
> 1 1/2 " tweeter - 11" sub
> mini-horns - 12" sub
> full size horns - 13" sub
> ribbon tweeter - 15" sub
> planar tweeter - 18" sub
> super tweeter - 21" sub


Gosh!!! You're so lame, even I know this  

Kelvin


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## McDizzle

tornaido_3927 said:


> Even if I turn my subs up they dont sound muddy or flappy, because they're in the right enclosure.


Maybe we aren't speaking the same language. I call it "boomy", but really it depends on what you are listening to. If you time align (phase is very important in the lower frequencies), have the right box, and want that perfect punch/boom combination then odds are, your sub is turned way down to blend better with your little 6.5 inchers. Of course if all you listen to is rap none of this probably matters as much.


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## WLDock

So.....what size sub in your dream system would you guys choose to pull off a realistic rendition of Toccata & Fugue in D minor by J.S. BACH, recorded on an instrument like this:










There are good subs and there are bad subs. There are well tuned subs and bad tuned subs. A good well tuned 15" will perform just as good as a good well tuned 10".

Talk is cheap...if you don't believe...buy a quality 15" and the same 10" and try them out for yourself in the same install but individually tuned and come back with your thoughts.

Some of the nicest bass I has heard in a car came from a set of 15" infinite baffle mounted subs as well as a couple of 10" subs in a sealed enclosure....Go figure?


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## mikey7182

It's okay... we'll let some of these guys keep feeding gigawatts to their high roll surround 10" woofers in their sealed enclosures, and I'll keep feeding 400w to my vented W15GTi.


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## coyote-1

All other things (motor) being equal, two 10s don't move as much air as one 15. So even with the same motor, the 15 will provide more *oomph*.

But a 15 in a car? :lol: Two 10s (or a 10 and a passive radiator 10) is waaaay more practical. And the smaller cones are less prone to distortion.


pikers said:


> Always heard this; never believed it. The premise implies that the motor structure is built incorrectly simply because the woofer is larger. Clearly, the same motor is not used on an 8" woofer as a 15" subwoofer. If it were, then we might have an issue from the underpinnings not being suitable for the job. Otherwise, it's a story told to sell two 10s as opposed to one 15".
> 
> I have worked for dealers in years' past who would tell this exact story to impressionable young kids, although they never heard it from me.
> 
> Thoughts welcome of course.


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## FLYONWALL9

coyote-1 said:


> All other things (motor) being equal, two 10s don't move as much air as one 15. So even with the same motor, the 15 will provide more *oomph*.
> 
> But a 15 in a car? :lol: Two 10s (or a 10 and a passive radiator 10) is waaaay more practical. And the smaller cones are less prone to distortion.


HELP me out there then....

if two 10 equil 20 cone inches and a 15(duh) is 15 cone
inches... How can a 15 move more air?


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## el_chupo_

FLYONWALL9 said:


> HELP me out there then....
> 
> if two 10 equil 20 cone inches and a 15(duh) is 15 cone
> inches... How can a 15 move more air?


2 10" subs do not equal "20 cone inches". Look at the SD of the driver, or use some basic algebra (the algebraic study of geometric shapes, for the individual below) to find out the area of a circle for the driver...


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## Sarthos

Larger subs may indeed sound a little sloppy, if you're good enough to pick up that little bit of noise. That's why mids are smaller than subs. But basically, larger diameter cone = more ability for the cone to flex. That flexing can result in some distortion. It's very dependent on the material though. Flimsy material + large diameter cone flexing and giving off secondary vibrations. This is just some basic deform mechanics here.

And that's not basic algebra, just basic geometry.


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## mikey7182

FLYONWALL9 said:


> HELP me out there then....
> 
> if two 10 equil 20 cone inches and a 15(duh) is 15 cone
> inches... How can a 15 move more air?


Ugh.

You're looking for the surface area of a cone. It's not as simple as adding 2+2.

Surface area= radius^2 * pi (roughly 3.14159).

So for a 10" woofer, the radius is 5". 5^2=25*3.14159=78.53975 square inches of surface area.

15" woofer= 7.5^2=56.25*3.14159=176.71444 square inches. Two 10s would be about 156 square inches. As was stated, the motor needs to be taken into consideration, because if the 10" woofer has more excursion than the 15, that increases its ability to displace air, which is what gives you output.

Coyote, perhaps you could share some insight as to how you arrived at your "one size fits all" rule of practicality as it relates to in-car subwoofers? We don't all drive Mini Coopers, and while some might enjoy taxing the **** out of their electrical system or spending money on costly upgrades, I will sacrifice marginally more cargo space in exchange for efficiency.


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## el_chupo_

Sarthos said:


> And that's not basic algebra, just basic geometry.


got that covered for you too. geometric equations are part of algebra... specifically the definition of area of a circle.


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## Sarthos

I was just referencing the fact that geometry is more basic than algebra (for most applications). Some people are more willing to work with geometry cause they find algebra to be a scary foreign concept. But I don't think this forum is where we find them.


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## Blip13

couldnt find what i was looking for but this is a start for speaker cone surface:

10" speaker vs 12" speaker, both rated 100db, which is louder? [Archive] - The Gear Page


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## BoonDoggie

Sarthos said:


> Larger subs may indeed sound a little sloppy, if you're good enough to pick up that little bit of noise. That's why mids are smaller than subs. But basically, larger diameter cone = more ability for the cone to flex. That flexing can result in some distortion. It's very dependent on the material though. Flimsy material + large diameter cone flexing and giving off secondary vibrations. This is just some basic deform mechanics here.


As you note, if a sub is good enough to pick up that little bit of noise. Which might have been an effective argument in 1980, but these days it really isnt difficult to model a woofer cone and note areas of flex. Many decent brand name subs in the biz above the $100 mark do just fine without significant flex. So unless your sub was about $35 online, chances are you got a decent one. However it is worth noting that you wont see too many cheapos in circles that we that have jobs run in, besides your idiot nephew and his baddasss VW with 4 15's.


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## jhmeg2

Blip13 said:


> @jhmeg2, would you say the Boston acoustic spg555 is a bad subwoofer due to its shape?


I wouldnt say its a bad subwoofer, I have never heard one, but just based on the shap... I would never buy one. I guess its all personal prefernce.


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## jhmeg2

WLDock said:


> So....._*what size sub in your dream system would you guys choose to pull off a realistic rendition of Toccata & Fugue in D minor *_by J.S. BACH, recorded on an instrument like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12" Mojo in t-line


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## 94VG30DE

All of this has been discussed enough to make me cringe. Notice that most of the 'smaller is tighter, bigger is sloppier' claims are based on anecdotal evidence, while the arguments for larger drivers are based on math and physics? Read the stuff lycan posted on Le and 'woofer speed' a while back, everything here is covered there, in enough depth to make your head hurt for positive reasons. If I wasn't on my cell I'd link it 
Also, saying something illogical and following by saying 'that's just my opinion' is not the point of this forum subgroup. It's a copout. The point is facts and data.


----------



## Sarthos

> As you note, if a sub is good enough to pick up that little bit of noise. Which might have been an effective argument in 1980, but these days it really isnt difficult to model a woofer cone and note areas of flex. Many decent brand name subs in the biz above the $100 mark do just fine without significant flex. So unless your sub was about $35 online, chances are you got a decent one. However it is worth noting that you wont see too many cheapos in circles that we that have jobs run in, besides your idiot nephew and his baddasss VW with 4 15's.


Pretty much. We need to get rid of those idiots, my...cousin's son...not sure what you call that. Anyway, he claimed he could blow my system away and he registered like 150 dB in a competition on his wal-mart system. and stock electrical but with a CAP. That's the kind of setup that ruins big subs for everyone else


----------



## chad

jhmeg2 said:


> I wouldnt say its a bad subwoofer, I have never heard one, but just based on the shap... I would never buy one. I guess its all personal prefernce.


You stated that the "sides" move quicker than the "ends" which is not true. looking straight on, if the cone is rigid, every part of the speaker moves at the same speed as the voice coil. It's not a rotational force thing, it's a piston. The doors of the general lee were not moving towards the ground faster than the bumpers, let's just say that.

One advantage to the design is that you can maximize cone surface area by placing them VERY close together.

KEF used ovals, worked for them.

I refuse to discredit a speaker due to shape upon sight.


----------



## KnightWhoSaysNI

emilimo701 said:


> This is true for many well-respected lines of subwoofers. Why is this horrific? Some examples:
> 
> Fi
> RE Audio
> Digital Designs
> DC Audio
> Incriminator Audio
> TC Sounds



Drool.....

TC Sounds Pro 5100 18" Neo Subwoofer Driver | Parts-Express.com


----------



## chad

That's the aura 1808 design, been around since the 80's


----------



## sqshoestring

My trunk is nearly empty with two 15s. Another thing to remember is the larger sub will not have to move the cone as far to make the same SPL. This is why some very large subs/woofers have this tiny surround and low xmax, yet can still get it on fairly well. This is the idea behind my pair of pyle 15s experiment, at nominal SQ listening volumes they hardly move. Low excursion = low distortion as well, in general.

So to be technical the 10 is going to move a longer stroke to keep up with a 15, it will move faster to get there, but make the same sound. The cost to do that, the chances of making distortion or cone noises/etc, and power required, are all higher.

When most people say punch/slow/fast/tight...they are referring to the response not the 'sound of the sub'. Just like others said, punch is above 80Hz mostly. Sure a 10 or smaller is going to like to play above 80Hz better than a 15, in general some drivers do not follow those rules. I bought Fs 20 qts .7 15s specifically because they like to play at 30Hz.


----------



## McDizzle

For the people who can't calculate surface area (face palm) here is a quick and easy guide to use, granted you remember how greater than and less than are represented:

2x15" > 1x18" > 2x12" > 1x15" > 2x10" > 1x12" > 1x10"

And if you want to do the math:

Pi * radius squared will give an idea for rough comparison, of course cones have a slight depth so actual will vary. Or to be more accurate just look at the damn SD T/S parameter


----------



## St. Dark

I confess I used to think that myth, a long time ago. Made sense from the standpoint of inertia and larger drivers having more mass. :blush: Then I heard some really good sounding larger drivers.

One reason I think this myth persists is, especially back in the day, you had companies building their larger drivers to sound good for the boom crowd. And a lot of shops were aiming their displays at the boom crowd. So you hear 12"s and larger, over and over, sounding boomy....and you hear smaller drivers in "SQ" applications, you might start to think that's indicative of how the different sizes work. Unless you dig into it, or find someone willing to educate, it's unfortunately not hard for newcomers to mistakenly come to that conclusion.


----------



## coyote-1

I never arrived at, nor did I state, any such "one size fits all" conclusion/rule. 


mikey7182 said:


> Coyote, perhaps you could share some insight as to how you arrived at your "one size fits all" rule of practicality as it relates to in-car subwoofers? We don't all drive Mini Coopers, and while some might enjoy taxing the **** out of their electrical system or spending money on costly upgrades, I will sacrifice marginally more cargo space in exchange for efficiency.


----------



## el_chupo_

mikey7182 said:


> We don't all drive Mini Coopers, and while some might enjoy taxing the **** out of their electrical system or spending money on costly upgrades, I will sacrifice marginally more cargo space in exchange for efficiency.


Its funny cause I am driving the wifes Mini Cooper today. very fun car, very bad factory stereo.


----------



## mikey7182

coyote-1 said:


> I never arrived at, nor did I state, any such "one size fits all" conclusion/rule.


I guess I misread this then:



coyote-1 said:


> But a 15 in a car? :lol: Two 10s (or a 10 and a passive radiator 10) is waaaay more practical.


So two 10s are NOT more practical than a single 15? Sometimes it's okay to use a single 15? Maybe you're confused by my description of "one size fits all." Reading comprehension (might be) > me, but I missed the part where you list scenarios where two 10s AREN'T "waaaay (sic) more practical" than a 15 in a car. You may not have implicitly stated it, but it was at the very least implied. You're really splitting hairs...


----------



## Cancerkazoo

I've had enclosures on both extremes, A box with 16 8" subs (8 ISO pairs of RF audiophiles) on 2 Soundstream Reference 500s circa 1995-6. (still have the box) and also I have 2 18s ( ED 19ov4s) on a Memphis Audio 1100 watt class D amp....

...
and the 18s are just as tight as the 8s


----------



## Cancerkazoo

....


----------



## mattyjman

you know, from my experience, I tested a 8" sub and a 15" sub a/b style. and the sound of the 15 was WAAY slower than the 8... it was almost as if the 15 was moving half speed. it was getting a signal that says play at 80hz, but instead it was playing 40hz because it was so slow.... geez. you guys need to get out more. do an a/b and see what all the buzz is about. math smath.


----------



## chad

ROFL


----------



## el_chupo_

Was it because you didnt give teh 15 time to catch up to speed? Its like a car, they need more time to reach 80. I bet at 30hz there would not have been as much difference. The 15 has a bigger magnet, which exerts more force on the voice coil, kind of like Torque in a diesel engine.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

mattyjman said:


> geez. you guys need to get out more. do an a/b and see what all the buzz is about. math smath.



LONG Sunday 2wheel rides serve more than one purpose. I knew
I liked you for some reason. In a total non ghay kinda way


----------



## el_chupo_

FLYONWALL9 said:


> LONG Sunday 2wheel rides serve more than one purpose. I knew
> I liked you for some reason. In a total non ghay kinda way



What kind of 2 wheel ride?


----------



## mattyjman

razor scooter


----------



## FLYONWALL9

el_chupo_ said:


> What kind of 2 wheel ride?



See avatar... Its an NC30, BUT I am VERY lucky to have a great
friend who owns an RC30, 45, new VFR1200, new Wing, a a few
others at my disposal. Along with some track bikes I've built and
put together for him.

On topic KINDA he isn't audio savvy in anyway shape or form. I've tried 
to talk him into letting me take some of his many funds to play with 
some home audio. He is rather stuck on Bose box sets but loves to 
come listen to my stuff when possible.


----------



## tornaido_3927

mattyjman said:


> you know, from my experience, I tested a 8" sub and a 15" sub a/b style. and the sound of the 15 was WAAY slower than the 8... it was almost as if the 15 was moving half speed. it was getting a signal that says play at 80hz, but instead it was playing 40hz because it was so slow.... geez. you guys need to get out more. do an a/b and see what all the buzz is about. math smath.


Awww man you got it! And that's why all the bigger subs can always play lower than smaller ones!! :laugh:


----------



## coyote-1

Holy crap. You've got to be kidding. yeah, your reading comprehension is seriously lacking.... all I did ws compare two 10s to a 15, and state that IMO two 10s are more practical. Nowhere did I say you should forego a 15, or a 12, or a quartet of 8s, or whatever makes you happy.

But I will remember, for future conversational reference, that you like to put words in other people's mouths. 


mikey7182 said:


> I guess I misread this then:
> 
> So two 10s are NOT more practical than a single 15? Sometimes it's okay to use a single 15? Maybe you're confused by my description of "one size fits all." Reading comprehension (might be) > me, but I missed the part where you list scenarios where two 10s AREN'T "waaaay (sic) more practical" than a 15 in a car. You may not have implicitly stated it, but it was at the very least implied. You're really splitting hairs...


----------



## mikey7182

coyote-1 said:


> Holy crap. You've got to be kidding. yeah, your reading comprehension is seriously lacking.... all I did ws compare two 10s to a 15, and state that IMO two 10s are more practical. Nowhere did I say you should forego a 15, or a 12, or a quartet of 8s, or whatever makes you happy.
> 
> But I will remember, for future conversational reference, that you like to put words in other people's mouths.


Yep, I was kidding the whole time! That's me, Mr. Kidding.  I know you compared two 10s to a 15, and I took a shot in the dark and guessed it was YOUR OPINION based on the fact that you typed it, unless someone stole your login information and posted their opinions fraudulently under your username!  The point of this thread is to dispel rumors; not perpetuate new ones. You stated two 10s are more practical than a single 15; all I wanted to know was why you feel that way. I'm not putting words into anyones' mouth- just trying to figure out why exactly two smaller woofers are more practical (in YOUR opinion) than a single larger woofer, which you have still failed to address after two more posts. But if you want to come in and just drop off your ******** opinions without any data to back them up, so be it. I wouldn't worry about anyone forgoing their own recommendations in favor of yours, so no need to lose any sleep over that.

Let's use the JBL GTi woofers as an example: a single W10GTi requires 1.75ft^3 vented, so two of them would require 3.5ft^3 vented. Conversely, a single W15GTi requires 4.0ft^3 vented and has more output than the two 10s. The two 10s will also require more amplification to achieve similar output, and the enclosure discrepancies are negligible. The baffle for the pair of 10s will also have to be larger to accommodate a pair of woofers plus baskets compared to a single 15" driver. So the single 15 requires less power, is louder, and has essentially the same sized enclosure as the pair of 10s. What about the pair of 10s is more practical? You laugh and mock that a 15" woofer in a vehicle is over the top or impractical, I questioned you on it, and you've yet to respond with an intelligent retort. I'm not trying to bust your balls, but some new guy (besides yourself) is going to come along and read your post and think "hey, I'm gonna go with a pair of 10s, because they're more practical than a single 15" woofer," when in reality he'd be doing himself a disservice more than likely. I am not saying there is NEVER an instance where multiple smaller drivers is better than one large one, but based on your post (and no argument from you to the contrary), multiple smaller woofers is always the way to go. So, if you have something besides "well that's what I've always done" as a response, please let us know.


----------



## el_chupo_

FLYONWALL9 said:


> See avatar... Its an NC30, BUT I am VERY lucky to have a great
> friend who owns an RC30, 45, new VFR1200, new Wing, a a few
> others at my disposal. Along with some track bikes I've built and
> put together for him.
> 
> On topic KINDA he isn't audio savvy in anyway shape or form. I've tried
> to talk him into letting me take some of his many funds to play with
> some home audio. He is rather stuck on Bose box sets but loves to
> come listen to my stuff when possible.


I have avatars turned off because some people have mostly nekkid or objectionable pictures, and I look at work...

That is a great looking bike! The Honda V4s are great engines, its a shame Americans want bigger better bikes. Not enough bikes under 600cc that produce the amazing results that 400 did.

I, like many, moved up to a litre class bike, a Triumph Sprint ST 1050. And you are correct, a good ride does a lot for the mind!


----------



## coyote-1

mikey7182 said:


> blahblahyadayada. You stated two 10s are more practical than a single 15; all I wanted to know was why you feel that way.blahblahblah But if you want to come in and just drop off your ******** opinions without any data to back them up, so be it.
> 
> more useless verbiage. So, if you have something besides "well that's what I've always done" as a response, please let us know.


I've never done either of 'em in a car. My reference point is in musical instruments, where I've built speaker cabinets on many occasions. A 15" speaker has an odd tendency to take up the same size bass cabinet as a quartet of 10s. To properly support a 15" inside a car you need to sacrifice a significant amount of either passenger space or storage space, an inconvenience to which a pair of 10s simply does not subject you.

Note I'm not saying truck, or van, or SUV. I'm saying CAR. Most cars on the road today are not 1977 Cadillac DeVilles, so space is usually at something of a premium. 

That's what I mean by practical. Got it yet? Somehow I doubt it.... Sorry the concept of practicality apparently eludes you, else this explanation would not have been required.


----------



## chad

cars and bass cabs are different things.


----------



## mikey7182

coyote-1 said:


> I've never done either of 'em in a car. My reference point is in musical instruments, where I've built speaker cabinets on many occasions. A 15" speaker has an odd tendency to take up the same size bass cabinet as a quartet of 10s. To properly support a 15" inside a car you need to sacrifice a significant amount of either passenger space or storage space, an inconvenience to which a pair of 10s simply does not subject you.
> 
> Note I'm not saying truck, or van, or SUV. I'm saying CAR. Most cars on the road today are not 1977 Cadillac DeVilles, so space is usually at something of a premium.
> 
> That's what I mean by practical. Got it yet? Somehow I doubt it.... Sorry the concept of practicality apparently eludes you, else this explanation would not have been required.


The only verbiage you found to be useless was the verbiage that directly contradicts your reply. Coincidence, or convenience?? We'll never know... 
I supplied you with an example of a pair of 10s occupying the same space as a single 15. Your idea of a response is to replace said example with "blahblahblah" then shove your thumb up your ass and state "uhhhhhh, nuh uh... FOUR 10s can fit where a single 15 should!" Your argument is about as strong as FDR's legs.

Next you're prattling on about building musical instruments... what does that have to do with car audio? If you're talking about building cabs, you're most likely dealing with pro audio gear, where 6-10 cubes is needed for a single 15. So if what you meant in your original post was that "in a car environment, multiple smaller PRO AUDIO drivers are more practical than a single larger one," you may have been on to something (ignoring of course that most 10" PA drivers are midranges). You clearly didn't mean this though, as you mentioned "car," a word you are quick to split hairs with in great detail. For future conversational reference, I'll rememember not to refer to all denim as "Levi's" when speaking with you, as "car" (especially in the context of this forum) CLEARLY shouldn't be mistaken for a generic term, but rather, an acutely specific reference to a vehicle with 4 doors, no hatch, no bed, no rear gate, and a trunk.


----------



## coyote-1

:yawn:

I just looked at the first page of the thread, and see that you display the same annoying attitude toward others. You're so busy fixating on my _practicality_ comment that you completely missed where, in that same post, I acknowledged that a 15" can be perfectly valid from a sonic standpoint ("more oomph").

I hope this forum has an 'ignore' function. You're my first entry.


mikey7182 said:


> The only verbiage you found to be useless was the verbiage that directly contradicts your reply. Coincidence, or convenience?? We'll never know...
> I supplied you with an example of a pair of 10s occupying the same space as a single 15. Your idea of a response is to replace said example with "blahblahblah" then shove your thumb up your ass and state "uhhhhhh, nuh uh... FOUR 10s can fit where a single 15 should!" Your argument is about as strong as FDR's legs.
> 
> Next you're prattling on about building musical instruments... what does that have to do with car audio? If you're talking about building cabs, you're most likely dealing with pro audio gear, where 6-10 cubes is needed for a single 15. So if what you meant in your original post was that "in a car environment, multiple smaller PRO AUDIO drivers are more practical than a single larger one," you may have been on to something (ignoring of course that most 10" PA drivers are midranges). You clearly didn't mean this though, as you mentioned "car," a word you are quick to split hairs with in great detail. For future conversational reference, I'll rememember not to refer to all denim as "Levi's" when speaking with you, as "car" (especially in the context of this forum) CLEARLY shouldn't be mistaken for a generic term, but rather, an acutely specific reference to a vehicle with 4 doors, no hatch, no bed, no rear gate, and a trunk.


----------



## chad

I'm about to PRACTICALLY screw Mikey's 1500GTi recone kit into my civic in place of my 10" driver, I expect it to be "Tighter" 

Should be a breath of fresh air since the driver has been hanging on a wall since 1999 or earlier.


----------



## mikey7182

coyote-1 said:


> :yawn:
> 
> I just looked at the first page of the thread, and see that you display the same annoying attitude toward others. You're so busy fixating on my _practicality_ comment that you completely missed where, in that same post, I acknowledged that a 15" can be perfectly valid from a sonic standpoint ("more oomph").
> 
> I hope this forum has an 'ignore' function. You're my first entry.


It's hard to read your "oomph" comment as anything closely resembling flattery when it's immediately followed by mockery. You don't seem like much of an oomph guy anyway; more like the "sub that just seamlessly disappears into the music" kind of guy. If you'll pull your fixated gaze off the underside of your large intestine long enough to take notice, the only other person to whom I displayed my "annoying attitude" was another NEWB with almost no posts who jumped right in the thread and started talking about how much he, too, "agreed" with the OP that larger woofers play much more sloppy and flabby, completely derailing the thread from the get-go. You must not have read the article today where LeBron James compares himself to Favre... if attacking my attitude was your goal, pointing out that literally the only other person I've been "short" with was the next biggest idiot in this thread doesn't lend you much credibility. If you're self-admittedly in the company of other morons, and thereby attracting my "annoying" attitude, I suppose you are beyond help. I did start off asking you to clarify what you meant, which you have still failed to do, except for some obscure link between the cabs you build and passenger space in a CAR- a CAR GOD DAMNIT! Not a HATCH/SUV?TRUCK/[email protected]*@*@*@*@@!!)!!)!(!!!!!!! 

This forum does indeed have an "ignore" feature, but seeing as how you have made precisely zero valid points and refuted none of mine, you may be better off swallowing a bit of pride and learning a few things rather than running and hiding from everyone who rubs you the wrong way.


----------



## mikey7182

chad said:


> I'm about to PRACTICALLY screw Mikey's 1500GTi recone kit into my civic in place of my 10" driver, I expect it to be "Tighter"
> 
> Should be a breath of fresh air since the driver has been hanging on a wall since 1999 or earlier.


You STILL haven't done that?? Were you waiting for your garage to get snowed in first?


----------



## chad

mikey7182 said:


> Were you waiting for your garage to get snowed in first?


YES


----------



## SecondSkinzz

A sub is only as good as what you feed it. Same as the amp. Check things like slew rate and damping factor. A poorly controlled cone will not sound good.


----------



## mikey7182

SecondSkinzz said:


> A sub is only as good as what you feed it. Same as the amp. Check things like slew rate and damping factor. A poorly controlled cone will not sound good.


Hey, I think we met your first day on the job.  Did you guys get the warehouse and inventory moved down to Tucson finally? Or are you not the one who bought SS?


----------



## SecondSkinzz

mikey7182 said:


> Hey, I think we met your first day on the job.  Did you guys get the warehouse and inventory moved down to Tucson finally? Or are you not the one who bought SS?


Actually, Ken Kanefield bought SS. Im helping him out since a few weeks ago. as for the warehouse and inventory it has all been moved here to Tucson, on the far east side of town. I'll be here to answer any questions or get info needed.


----------



## mikey7182

SecondSkinzz said:


> Actually, Ken Kanefield bought SS. Im helping him out since a few weeks ago. as for the warehouse and inventory it has all been moved here to Tucson, on the far east side of town. I'll be here to answer any questions or get info needed.


I knew it was Ken, I just wasn't sure if you were him.  Cool you're helping him out, and glad to hear he got everything moved down finally.


----------



## coyote-1

There are some 10" subs that, with a little effort, I could shoehorn into the driver's footwell of a small car. Wouldn't be optimal, but it could be done.

Can you shoehorn a 15 into the driver's footwell of a small car? ANY 15?


mikey7182 said:


> more useless verbiage


THAT is what I mean by *practical*. Why that concept completely eludes you is beyond my understanding, as it's not that difficult for anyone with an IQ above 60 to comprehend. 

My first post ("waaaay more practical") didn't start out as mockery, just a valid opinion. But I see your emotions are completely caught up in 15" subwoofers, you are a fervent believer in them. To the point that you can't begin to see where size might be an issue for many car owners.

:lol:


----------



## chad

SecondSkinzz said:


> A sub is only as good as what you feed it. Same as the amp. Check things like slew rate and damping factor. A poorly controlled cone will not sound good.


lemme guess, you work in marketing?


----------



## el_chupo_




----------



## sqshoestring

Lol, I used to run a pyramid on my subs...but it was an 80s pyramid. It sounded great until it clipped. I don't get these people with SQ on subs, you can't hardly hear massive distortion anyway, and you can buy oodles of power for cheap so why would you have a clipping issue if you didn't want one? Yeah some amps are a little different, but if you want SQ the sub section should be the very last thing you perfect in your system. A lot of people have only a sub section and wonder why it does not sound right, though I'll assume most of those people are not here looking for good SQ.

And shoehorn subs in a footwell? That is something for show cars to do and they have done it. I have a pair of 15s in my car and my trunk is largely empty, it works fantastic, better tuned than the quad 12s I had in there. The install was not that hard, and I never have to worry about foot room because they are in the trunk where they belong. I would do anything rather than have any driver in the footwell impeding my use of the car, but thats just me and its a daily driver. It is my opinion if you use them as subwoofers under 80Hz at most you will not have a location issue with them, instead of using them for woofers because you don't have any midbass.

You will have to look for an amp with crappy enough slew and dampening for a human to hear the difference. In other countries high school kids build car amps for school projects they are so simple. So maybe the cheapest brands could have issues, but I highly doubt any others do. Amps are like toasters, even the $7 ones make alright toast....but they might not last you for long.


----------



## Blip13

It takes a bigger IDIOT to see another idiot........


----------



## el_chupo_

Blip13 said:


> It takes a bigger IDIOT to see another idiot........


Welcome to the forum. Kind of a completely useless post you made here, as it appears to have no correlation or part of the thread being discussed. I am sure it does, but one cannot garner that based on the post. Are you calling SQ, chad, myself, or someone else an idiot? It is often better to address the person by quoting them, so that the 3 or 4 people commenting in between the discussion you are trying to have know what you are talking about.


----------



## Blip13

If you have read the post from the start then you would know at whom it is pointed, he or she knows exactly who it is, i am being as cryptic as he/she is but its not you.

Name calling is a 2 way street as is most in life, if you don't have the discipline or personalty to rectify someones opinion you believe is not the truth by stating why you differ from that persons opinion in a subtle or respectable way then your'e not solving the problem, then you are part of it.

Even if someone els doesn't view your'e opinions or facts or whatever as their own, you don't have the right to name calling just because you feel like it or think you are in some way superior to someone els.


----------



## BoonDoggie

Mikey, Coyote.. please.. let it go. You're both dicks, happy?  Bring the thread back to civility!


----------



## coyote-1

BoonDoggie said:


> Mikey, Coyote.. please.. let it go. You're both dicks, happy?  Bring the thread back to civility!


's OK, he's actually convinced me... I'm gonna find a way to cram a 15" into the driver's side footwell of my Impreza, even if I have to shove my foot through the speaker cone to operate the clutch


----------



## subwoofery

coyote-1 said:


> There are some 10" subs that, with a little effort, I could shoehorn into the driver's footwell of a small car. Wouldn't be optimal, but it could be done.
> 
> Can you shoehorn a 15 into the driver's footwell of a small car? ANY 15?
> 
> THAT is what I mean by *practical*. Why that concept completely eludes you is beyond my understanding, as it's not that difficult for anyone with an IQ above 60 to comprehend.
> 
> My first post ("waaaay more practical") didn't start out as mockery, just a valid opinion. But I see your emotions are completely caught up in 15" subwoofers, you are a fervent believer in them. To the point that you can't begin to see where size might be an issue for many car owners.
> 
> :lol:


You were comparing 2x10" vs 1x15"... Why are you talking about a 10" vs a 15"? Try to shoehorn 2x10" into the passenger footwell and we can discuss the matter. 
And if you go into the trouble of building a front substage in the passenger footwell with 2x10" then I'm sure you'll be able to fit a 15". 

Kelvin


----------



## coyote-1

Sheesh. Does everyone on this forum miss the point on such a regular basis?


subwoofery said:


> You were comparing 2x10" vs 1x15"... Why are you talking about a 10" vs a 15"? Try to shoehorn 2x10" into the passenger footwell and we can discuss the matter.
> And if you go into the trouble of building a front substage in the passenger footwell with 2x10" then I'm sure you'll be able to fit a 15".
> 
> Kelvin


My INITIAL post only stated that a single 15" moves more air than two 10s.

Some poster decided, for reasons that I cannot fathom, to make an issue of that. So I replied that two 10s would be "waaay more practical" IMO for a car. Another forumite took issue with THAT, accusing me of a "one size fits all blahblahblah". Now I state, in reference to the practicality issue, that I can shoehorn a 10 into a place that I can't fit a 15.... and you take issue with it?

I feel like I'm in a hall of funhouse mirrors here. 

Doesn't it occur to you that if I can comfortably shoehorn a 10" into the driver's footwell, I could do likewise in the passenger footwell - and thereby get the two 10s, one in each footwell?? Why would you put the two 10s in the passenger footwell?? You REALLY want to put a 15" there, and deprive any passenger over 4 feet tall comfortable legroom?

This is ridiculous.


----------



## mikey7182

coyote-1 said:


> 's OK, he's actually convinced me... I'm gonna find a way to cram a 15" into the driver's side footwell of my Impreza, even if I have to shove my foot through the speaker cone to operate the clutch





coyote-1 said:


> There are some 10" subs that, with a little effort, I could shoehorn into the driver's footwell of a small car. Wouldn't be optimal, but it could be done.
> 
> Can you shoehorn a 15 into the driver's footwell of a small car? ANY 15? THAT is what I mean by practical. Why that concept completely eludes you is beyond my understanding, as it's not that difficult for anyone with an IQ above 60 to comprehend.
> 
> My first post ("waaaay more practical") didn't start out as mockery, just a valid opinion. But I see your emotions are completely caught up in 15" subwoofers, you are a fervent believer in them. To the point that you can't begin to see where size might be an issue for many car owners.


It is not even worth arguing with you anymore. You start off with a blanket statement that "two 10s are waaay more practical than a single 15" and subsequently have whittled that statement down to the most specific of applications, that I don't even think you know what the **** point you're trying to argue anymore. 

So if I understand you correctly, to summarize your argument:

"Two 10s are waaay more practical than a single 15 because I build cabs that can fit 4 PA 10s in the same space as a single PA 15; I mean, they're more practical in really really really small cars (not SUVs, trucks, vans, or hatches), AAAAAND, I can shoehorn a single 10 down into my passenger footwell!!!" 

So two 10s are more practical than a single larger sub because you can shoehorn a SINGLE 10 into a footwell and leave the second 10 in your garage? You're a ****ing ******* of such epic proportions. If you don't see my point by now, you never will. You get an "F" for the debate. 

I have said several times that there are obviously instances where a pair of smaller woofers is more practical- naturally if you're going to put subs in your kicks or hide them under your dash, 15s are most likely not going to be an option (unless you're that Neil Zauser guy with the 540 and the B&W gear or whatever the **** his name was). But that's not what you said coyoteugly; you didn't leave room for any exceptions- you just said two 10s are more practical than a single 15. I asked you to qualify your blanket statement, and I can't imagine a way in which you could have done your argument more of a disservice with your tangential drivel. My entire goal was to avoid leading new guys astray with ridiculous blanket statements that you could NEVER back up in a million years. Not everyone drives a Mini Cooper (I remember reading that somewhere...). Not everyone plans on installing subs in their kicks (in fact, very few do). Define "practical" anyway. What's practical to you may not be practical to me or anybody else, which was my ENTIRE ****ing point about a "one size fits all" solution in the first place. Everyone's needs are different, so to come in and say "x is better than y" without ANY qualifiers or reasoning behind your argument adds nothing to the conversation. Thanks, you non-contributing dolt.

To the guy from South Africa, you come in here with your 7 posts into the section to dispel rumors and you can barely contain your excitement to completely derail the purpose of the thread right off the bat! You're an idiot. Don't tell me what my rights are; if you maintain the right to make retarded assertions with no data to back them up, I maintain the right to point it out. If I have violated some forum rule by calling you names, I suppose the ban hammer will find me soon enough. 

BoonDoggie- I am being a dick. A huge one. Intentionally. But being a dick doesn't make me wrong.  I did have an emergency appendectomy a few days ago (not that it's absolutely relevant) and am in quite a bit of pain, so my tolerance for douchebaggery may be a bit reduced. 

In conclusion, this forum is here to help people learn. This subforum specifically is here to dispel rumors that have long been sold to us and/or perpetuated by those who lack a technical understanding of what's actually happening. Wileycoyote made an unqualified blanket statement, and I asked him to either defend it or qualify it. I suppose in his own special way, he has done just that. I'm ready to move on. I don't think there's really much else left to say.


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## KnightWhoSaysNI

chad said:


> That's the aura 1808 design, been around since the 80's


Hey if it ain't broke dont fix it 

Ive always loved the look of those motor designs! Ive never knowingly heard one but my inner nerd drools...


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## Blip13

HAHAHA, all i see is blah blah blah, at least i'm not a dick and even with my now 8 posts i'm sure your'e still a dick with your'e 2818 posts,but that doesn't make you special, it just means you like to talk BS, your'e mama didn't beat you enough as a kid cause you have NO respect for other people, its all about you, you like being the center of attention and yes i'm going to give you **** since you started it with your'e unwanted idiotic remarks, don't think your'e a day older than 12 because you don't have any PR skills, MAW JY IS N REGTE DOOS, HAHAHAHAHA, grow up and get a life, if you don't like what other people say go tell someone that gives a flying F because i don't, forums is there to give your'e opinion, not give someone **** because they have experienced something different from your'e findings or law or decisions, to me 15', 18' and 22' subs is kak, i don't like their sound and i will never ever buy them, to me its a waste of space and i stand by what i said,TO ME A 15" AND LARGER SOUNDS SLOWER THAN A 10", even if i cant see it, the systems i have installed i can hear it and at the end of the day what a person hear is what matters, if you love a 15" go buy one and if you really want to marry it because i don't care, and yes maybe a 15" goes all the way down to 35Hz but if you know instruments(musical) then you would also know that very very little of them goes that low if any ever does, so i don't need 35Hz in my car because i don't listen to electronic music, careful you don't smother on your'e own ego, who died and made you GOD anyway?

(o) <-IGNORE BUTTON.......CLICK......YOU ARE IGNORED.


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## mSaLL150

Blip13 said:


> HAHAHA, all i see is blah blah blah, at least i'm not a dick and even with my now 8 posts i'm sure your'e still a dick with your'e 2818 posts,but that doesn't make you special, it just means you like to talk BS, your'e mama didn't beat you enough as a kid cause you have NO respect for other people, its all about you, you like being the center of attention and yes i'm going to give you **** since you started it with your'e unwanted idiotic remarks, don't think your'e a day older than 12 because you don't have any PR skills, MAW JY IS N REGTE DOOS, HAHAHAHAHA, grow up and get a life, if you don't like what other people say go tell someone that gives a flying F because i don't, forums is there to give your'e opinion, not give someone **** because they have experienced something different from your'e findings or law or decisions, to me 15', 18' and 22' subs is kak, i don't like their sound and i will never ever buy them, to me its a waste of space and i stand by what i said,TO ME A 15" AND LARGER SOUNDS SLOWER THAN A 10", even if i cant see it, the systems i have installed i can hear it and at the end of the day what a person hear is what matters, if you love a 15" go buy one and if you really want to marry it because i don't care, and yes maybe a 15" goes all the way down to 35Hz but if you know instruments(musical) then you would also know that very very little of them goes that low if any ever does, so i don't need 35Hz in my car because i don't listen to electronic music, careful you don't smother on your'e own ego, who died and made you GOD anyway?
> 
> (o) <-IGNORE BUTTON.......CLICK......YOU ARE IGNORED.


LOL post of the ****ing decade right here.


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## Luke352

I's got stoopeder reading this thread!!!


I read threads like this and realise just how far down the ****ter DIYMA has gone in regards to technical discussion and the intelligence of many of the people posting here.


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## mikey7182

Blip13 said:


> your'e mama didn't beat you enough as a kid cause you have NO respect for other people, its all about you,


So there is a direct correlation between maternal child abuse and growing up to respect others? Sounds about as logical as your conclusion regarding subwoofers.



> *don't think your'e a day older than 12* because you don't have any PR skills,


...followed up immediately by:



> if you love a 15" go buy one and if you really want to marry it because i don't care


Suggesting I'm childish followed up with the equivalent of "neener neener lick my weener" is an interesting tactic.



> and yes maybe a 15" goes all the way down to 35Hz but if you know instruments(musical) then you would also know that very very little of them goes that low if any ever does, so i don't need 35Hz in my car because i don't listen to electronic music,


What in the **** are you talking about? "Lower frequency response" is at the absolute bottom of the list of reasons why I use a larger subwoofer. You can get sub-30hz out of an 8" woofer in a proper enclosure, which I would assume you've never constructed.



> careful you don't smother on your'e own ego, who died and made you GOD anyway?


LOL! God isn't real.

Look, your dad should have decided to stay late and jerk off in the diamond mines rather than raping your mom behind that liquor store... maybe then you would have had a better chance at a decent education so I didn't have to bumblefuck my way through your piss poor grammar, irrational thoughts, and incomplete sentences.


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## Blip13

All i can see is someone quoting me but he wrote in Underwater Japanese, think somethings wrong with your'e keyboard.................


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## Z80_Man

LOL the topic is turning into kindergarten fight... 



Blip13 said:


> to me 15', 18' and 22' subs is kak, i don't like their sound and i will never ever buy them, to me its a waste of space


Well, sure, those kinds of subwoofers were originally designed for concert enclosures, but you know, as some people like to show off in their car (even some really ridiculous tiny cars, where audio hardware occupies all the room and there's barely enough space left for the driver ), then makers wouldn't miss an occasion to make money on them, would they ? 

BTW, there are plenty of room in some vans or big cars, and if people like their subs big and like to compete about who will make the more pressure, let them live... 

Though actually most cars boots will actually add a bandpass effect to any subwoofer enclosure, especially ported ones, so 8" to 12" subs will produce enough infra-bass when it's about just normal listening.



Blip13 said:


> and i stand by what i said,TO ME A 15" AND LARGER SOUNDS SLOWER THAN A 10"


Well, there's actually one obvious thing : large subs were designed for that purpose.

Now, about if they achieve doing this or not is not only a matter of diameter, but concerns the whole subwoofer design.

BTW, wasn't the topic about those large subs producing flabby bass ?

I thought the topic about low bass was another one...


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## chad

mSaLL150 said:


> LOL post of the ****ing decade right here.


No ****, I think he may have even gotten a little drool on his shoes.


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## Miniboom

Blip13 said:


> HAHAHA, all i see is blah blah blah, at least i'm not a dick and even with my now 8 posts i'm sure your'e still a dick with your'e 2818 posts,but that doesn't make you special, it just means you like to talk BS, your'e mama didn't beat you enough as a kid cause you have NO respect for other people, its all about you, you like being the center of attention and yes i'm going to give you **** since you started it with your'e unwanted idiotic remarks, don't think your'e a day older than 12 because you don't have any PR skills, MAW JY IS N REGTE DOOS, HAHAHAHAHA, grow up and get a life, if you don't like what other people say go tell someone that gives a flying F because i don't, forums is there to give your'e opinion, not give someone **** because they have experienced something different from your'e findings or law or decisions, to me 15', 18' and 22' subs is kak, i don't like their sound and i will never ever buy them, to me its a waste of space and i stand by what i said,TO ME A 15" AND LARGER SOUNDS SLOWER THAN A 10", even if i cant see it, the systems i have installed i can hear it and at the end of the day what a person hear is what matters, if you love a 15" go buy one and if you really want to marry it because i don't care, and yes maybe a 15" goes all the way down to 35Hz but if you know instruments(musical) then you would also know that very very little of them goes that low if any ever does, so i don't need 35Hz in my car because i don't listen to electronic music, careful you don't smother on your'e own ego, who died and made you GOD anyway?
> 
> (o) <-IGNORE BUTTON.......CLICK......YOU ARE IGNORED.


Damn you, I can't select a single sentence from your post to use in my sig for ranting your ass. No, wait - "your'e" ass? :laugh: Seriously, you're so bad fingered, I don't know if it's sad or funny! 

Anyway. Above, somebody noted this forum going down the ****ter. I started reading here because the Norwegian car audio forums (actually, it was just one) are basically dead.

It may be the winter time, but I must say I feel pretty alone playing around with car audio where I live. Visiting, reading and contributing to forums like this is a must for qualified input and great tips & tricks!

People like you KILL these forums! Can you please make constructive inputs to the discussion, or shut the hell up?


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## sqshoestring

How do you know what is under 35Hz if your system will not play it....

I hear that crap all the time on here, if you don't have subs that go low then just keep quiet about how much or how little music is down there. You don't know what music someone listens to either.


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## mikey7182

Blip13 said:


> If all you can see is someone quoting you, I wouldn't want you to miss out on this: *Look, your dad should have decided to stay late and jerk off in the diamond mines rather than raping your mom behind that liquor store... maybe then you would have had a better chance at a decent education so I didn't have to bumblefuck my way through your piss poor grammar, irrational thoughts, and incomplete sentences.* All i can see is someone quoting me but he wrote in Underwater Japanese, think somethings wrong with your'e keyboard.................


Here.


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## Blip13

@Mikey, if you gave me constructive criticism i would not have minded but getting up in a newbies face from another continent for no reason wasn't the way to go, i am a open minded person and if you were just a bit more polite it would have been a different situation. And then out of the blue you come and call me a idiot again after i left you alone, whats that about? Don't you like South Africans? Have we or i done something to you?

@Miniboom, people like me don't kill forums, but we are prone to kick up dust when someone attacks us due to our own vision, likes, dislikes and experience in this industry, south africa is a lot different to you guys, you buy a quality sub with the change in your'e pocket, if we wanna quality sub we pay more than the average monthly income of a person, i don't like fighting but understand me as well, you guys wont like it either if you go on another continents forum in regards to your'e passion and someone starts dissing you with destructive criticism even if you just speak your'e opinion and they don't share your'e believes, sorry to say but the only person who is killing this thread is mikey, he was bloody rude towards me and i won't stay quiet about it, nor would you have if you were in my position.

Behavior like that could put a bad taste in a real rookies mouth, i'm only a rookie on the forum, have been in the car audio industry a while. But someone that is brand new to it could just feel, hey, if this is how people from this industry behaves towards me then i don't want any part of it, witch at the end of the day stops him from buying that woofer that others would like to show off with.

I have my own perspective about things, you don't have to agree with me on anything i say, but it doesn't cost a penny to be civilized.


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## mikey7182

Blip13 said:


> @Mikey, if you gave me constructive criticism i would not have minded but getting up in a newbies face from another continent for no reason wasn't the way to go, i am a open minded person and if you were just a bit more polite it would have been a different situation. And then out of the blue you come and call me a idiot again after i left you alone, whats that about? Don't you like South Africans? Have we or i done something to you?
> 
> @Miniboom, people like me don't kill forums, but we are prone to kick up dust when someone attacks us due to our own vision, likes, dislikes and experience in this industry, south africa is a lot different to you guys, you buy a quality sub with the change in your'e pocket, if we wanna quality sub we pay more than the average monthly income of a person, i don't like fighting but understand me as well, you guys wont like it either if you go on another continents forum in regards to your'e passion and someone starts dissing you with destructive criticism even if you just speak your'e opinion and they don't share your'e believes, sorry to say but the only person who is killing this thread is mikey, he was bloody rude towards me and i won't stay quiet about it, nor would you have if you were in my position.
> 
> Behavior like that could put a bad taste in a real rookies mouth, i'm only a rookie on the forum, have been in the car audio industry a while. But someone that is brand new to it could just feel, hey, if this is how people from this industry behaves towards me then i don't want any part of it, witch at the end of the day stops him from buying that woofer that others would like to show off with.
> 
> I have my own perspective about things, you don't have to agree with me on anything i say, but it doesn't cost a penny to be civilized.


Jesus Christ! Who the **** typed that for you? Are you digitally bipolar or something? There's no way that the person who wrote this also wrote your last response. No ****ing way.


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## mattyjman




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## ANT

Later blip.. Enjoy your time off

ANT


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## emilimo701

Blip13 said:


> i stand by what i said,TO ME A 15" AND LARGER SOUNDS SLOWER THAN A 10", even if i cant see it, the systems i have installed i can hear it and at the end of the day what a person hear is what matters


This makes sense, and is a perfectly fine statement. It would be pointless for anybody to try to argue against that.

However, this thread isn't about you. It isn't about your subjective opinion. This thread is in a forum called CAR AUDIO TRUTHS & MYTHS. If you want to share what kind of equalization transfer function you prefer, find the appropriate thread.

Using words taken from other contexts (for example, the word "tight" is usually used in context of physical objects that are either bound together or have elastic properties) to express a *subjective perception* of qualitative stimuli is okay from an artistic or philosophical standpoint.

But whoever created this thread created it for a purpose; to disabuse people of their misconceptions when it comes to the physical, electrical, and mathematical elements of audio design and engineering.

What seems to happen is that people come to conclusions that are misguided or partially (if not completely) false. Even engineers and very intelligent people can get blinded by the heuristics and simplifications. The main thing to always, always, ALWAYS remember if you want to be a free-thinking, open-minded human is this:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Back to the point of this thread. This thread should point out facts, communicate truths, and dispel myths. This thread should not be adulterated by arbitrary theories and subjective perceptions. Blanket statements like "18's are inherently sloppy and rarely ever sound good" are not only largely false, but also defeat the purpose of this thread. This forum should be a place where new people to the hobby can come and not be confused. For example, people confuse transient response with tone or frequency response. As related as they may be, this should be a place where experienced professionals can describe to people the difference between things like "transient response" and "total system Q". *Even though you may not explicitly say something like "smaller subs always sound more articulate", it can be easy for one to infer this, because you are making a blanket statement in the middle of a conversation about transient response (or Q, or tuning, or whatever). So now in the middle of what was supposed to be a technical conversation, you have come and laid an evil egg in the minds of those still ingenuous to the topic.*

Sure, many large diameter woofers may sound what _could be_ described as "slow" or "flabby" or "flaccid" or whatever qualitative descriptors you and others may use. And many will completely agree with you! But do _all_ large subwoofers share these qualities? No. When they do actually sound like that, is it _because_ they are larger? NO! CORRELATION DOES NOT = CAUSATION. If you want to contribute something to the conversation, you should state FACTS and back them up with quantitative data. Tell us why, not what.

Ugh I could keep going, but I think i've been redundant enough and have made my point.


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## emilimo701

Blip13 said:


> i don't like fighting but understand me as well, you guys wont like it either if you go on another continents forum in regards to your'e passion and someone starts dissing you with destructive criticism even if you just speak your'e opinion and they don't share your'e believes


Sorry man but this thread isn't about your beliefs and opinions.


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## audiogodz1

It wasn't until Eclipse Aluminum was introduced in the late 90's that the industry was really turning around with large driver magnets. Up till then even the gods of the industry such as M&M, HiFonics, Lanzar, and others didn't use magnets over 80 oz for even their 18" models. Rare exception were the RF Power Punch.

Things are certainly different as we stand here today, but you can't erase all of history just because the last ten years have been productively moving forward. There are many companies today still producing 1999 speaker technology and only a handful of zealots producing these specialty subs. Therefore we may have the ability to produce a situation where "not always true" is the case, but majority still wins.


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## sqshoestring

Pyle used some huge magnets in the 80s, the 10" didn't have much clearance to the hole you cut for it. They were single stack but very wide. I was using pyramid W10s around '90 with a 70oz magnet they were $15 each through a place I worked at; cost+10%. They make the same thing today the WX but looks like they discontinued the paper cone I used because the poly version had noise (only when IB)...but they have changed the cones and surround materials a few times over the years so I have no idea how they work now. I bought a set of the blue paper ones a while back they are sitting here, for fun. Not many people today run a 2x75 on subs though, lol, though they were old school amps.

The small box huge magnet inefficient sub is a niche market, only car audio uses them...well some HT subs do as well but I doubt anyone else wants to spare that kind of power. Just the same it is difficult and expensive to make a big xmax sub like that and how many will you sell? Today the mass market is under incredible price pressure, I think that keeps the huge xmax subs to a limited market unless someone figures out how to do it cheaper. Certainly they knew little about how to make a large xmax sub in the late 80s, you went larger instead.

Could be part of this myth comes from what they did back then, they used heavy paper cones that could take a beating and tuned lower. No those subs did not like to play higher frequency like a woofer lol. I recall putting in new RF 15s back then and the RF rep was telling me how strong the cone was. Eventually I lifted my feet off the floor with my two hands on the cone, now that was impressive none the less.

On the other hand pro speakers were optimized long ago and can be bought pretty cheap. I don't propose to know that much about them and the differences between cheaper and more expensive ones, but they are very effective at what they do. Of course material changes might be the leading source of innovation for non-huge xmax drivers, and material innovation is one of the most difficult for any industry. It is still hard to beat cheap old paper in many cases.


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## audiogodz1

sqshoestring said:


> Pyle used some huge magnets in the 80s, the 10" didn't have much clearance to the hole you cut for it. They were single stack but very wide.


Hence the problem, they had about 3/4 inch of total travel if they were lucky. You could get the wattage to them, but they'd just bottom out. So I should clarify, bumped backplates and triple stacks only became popular towards the end of the 90's. Pioneer was the first to bump the backplate sorta mid 90's.


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## Brian Steele

McDizzle said:


> Pi * radius squared will give an idea for rough comparison, of course cones have a slight depth so actual will vary.


Cone depth or cross-sectional profile makes no difference to the Sd calculation.


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## sqshoestring

audiogodz1 said:


> Hence the problem, they had about 3/4 inch of total travel if they were lucky. You could get the wattage to them, but they'd just bottom out. So I should clarify, bumped backplates and triple stacks only became popular towards the end of the 90's. Pioneer was the first to bump the backplate sorta mid 90's.


I don't think they had huge travel, but they didn't bottom easily. We mostly ran them IB and used ~300rms old school amps like coustic amp300, LP 2002/3002, punch 150, etc. The place I worked at only had sold like two LP5002 at the time the 5002 was brand new, even SS D60/100/200 they had not sold for long. So that would be 2x75rms, but on a 12v rated amp. That was before 1990. The pyles and RF subs were our top units, we sold pile of those honeycomb kenwoods 8s but they didn't work like 10s of course. Sold stillwater boxes too.


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## DJSPANKY

Look, your dad should have decided to stay late and jerk off in the diamond mines rather than raping your mom behind that liquor store... maybe then you would have had a better chance at a decent education so I didn't have to bumblefuck my way through your piss poor grammar, irrational thoughts, and incomplete sentences.[/QUOTE]


Dude- way over the line- regardless of the conversation or difference of opinions.


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## DJSPANKY

DJSPANKY said:


> Look, your dad should have decided to stay late and jerk off in the diamond mines rather than raping your mom behind that liquor store... maybe then you would have had a better chance at a decent education so I didn't have to bumblefuck my way through your piss poor grammar, irrational thoughts, and incomplete sentences.



Dude- way over the line- regardless of the conversation or difference of opinions.[/QUOTE]


Sorry everyone- I came late to the post. I don't mean to digress this thread back to where it was. It seems to have made a good comeback. I suppose next time I'll read all the way to the end before commenting on something in the middle.:blush:


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## Oh.humes

OK, he's actually convinced me... I'm gonna find a way to cram a 15" into the driver's side footwell of my Impreza.


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## therapture

McDizzle said:


> My God people, how many times must we go through this? lol
> 
> Bigger subs _tend_ to go lower. Lower notes are perceived as boomier and sloppy, especially without adequate midbass up front. The "fastness" you are looking for should mostly be coming from your massive midbass drivers being loud enough to keep up with a massive 18 incher's output. No, not because they are smaller, but because that is the range they were designed to play.
> 
> All subs are "fast" enough to keep up with the music, you just perceive it as sloppy because you spent $2000 on 4 18" subs that play .004% of the frequency range very loud and then have one pair of 6.5 inchers up front drowning in bass. If your bass is sloppy:
> 
> Turn your f%$cking sub down or get 6 dedicated midbass drivers and throw them up front. Or just learn ho to tune better, get some time alignment and blend your drivers better. I have the rainbow vanadium kick series and 1 12" Dayton DVC sub. The kicks have the most amazing midbass output I have ever heard, but I still have to turn my sub down a lot. My sub control goes from -15 to +15 and it's probably at 0 right now. *Any higher starts sounding a bit "muddy" and "flappy". I used to like loud bass, then what I realized later was I really liked loud midbass*.


*gets shovel out and digs up another old thread*

THIS. I was always trying to change the sub, the box, the amp...when I finally researched SQ...and got some real 6.5" drivers in the doors, deadened and sealed the doors and learned about phase/polarity tuning....WHOA. It was another entire universe that opened up! Snap and Impact come from the midbass area...

I have a single 12" now, and it is rarely pushed hard at high volume, and my system has gobs of impact, snap, and "tightness".

All I needed the entire time was real midbass from the front.


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## Hanatsu

I'd say that snap and impact comes a lot from the midrange. Turn the midrange driver off and listen to sub/midbass only and you won't hear any "fast" and "snappy" notes 

Incorrect/irregular FR often leads to these issues.

But yeah, the midbass driver needs to be dimensioned together with the sub for them to blend well. Some of it can be compensated with a higher highpass on the mids but too high and the sub will sooner or later give you localization cues from behind.


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## 22689

this is entertaining. I love it when people see the LIGHT. :O)


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## SilkySlim

I understand and agree with you on the mid snap and impact. Really good dynamic midrange and midbass really help with the harmonics of bass lines. That is one of the things that make large driver full range pro drivers with very tight suspensions so intriguing plenty of cone area to reproduce high volume dynamic sound mostly phase coherent. I think that many problems are caused by room/car modes, reflections, cancellations, and blending/phase issues between crossovers, many drivers, and driver locations. Now that being said. I also have found many variances between the performance differences between many subs even across the same line in very close to the same locations in cars, very close total q enclosure designs, recommended enclosure designs etc. 

There are so many factors involved in speaker design. (I do not claim to be an expert just a padiwan learner) I have noticed in higher end reference level home speakers and having many discussions with designers. Some of the most amazing speakers and the drivers are designed for a purpose of what they want to achieve then they fine tune the enclosures to match the final production drivers. The 8's have a different motor structure than the 10's and different than the 12's. It makes sense that the motor design is one of the most


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## JimL

mikey7182 said:


> Did you only read the title of the thread and then post? This thread makes my head hurt. In fact, this entire section makes my head hurt. These threads seem to bring more ignorance out of the woodwork than dispel the rumors at which they are aimed.
> 
> Can anyone post a rational reason as to why they think a larger woofer would sound more sloppy/boomy/flabby than a smaller woofer? A reason besides "that's what I've always heard" or "that's what the guys at Best Buy told me" would be greatly appreciated.


I use a ported 18" and love it. Boominess can often be attributed to crossover design and improper use of bass boost or gain? I use a (4 octave) -24db slope from active DSP and happy with it. I always thought more distortion was added when woofers were excursing. A larger woofer needs less excursion to move a larger amount of air perhap lessening the THD


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