# High dollar RCAs fact or fiction



## oldschoolbeats

Over the years ive seen quite a few of these "high dollar" rcas, probably 15 years ago i remember rockford had gamma symmetrys that were in the neighborhood of $250 for a 20 foot 2 channel.... theres a ton of other brands etc that are expensive as well. 

Over the years ive used cheap or somewhat cheap rca's and have never had problems with noise etc, but then again im not that guy that wire ties my rcas too my power wires...... Now that im building a somewhat ok sound quality system(always had systems that were specifically for SPL) and need roughly 13-2 channel rca cables, i do not see myself spending $75 a piece on these.... back in the day the local stereo shop had a rockford van using 45 of those previously mentioned gamma symmetry cables.... probably $10k worth?

Now for the fact or fiction, does it make that big of a difference in using a $15 rca wire compared to a $100 rca wire? Is it mostly urban legend? Thoughts? And no my SQ system will never be hooked up to any type of monitor or in any type of competition.


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## rc10mike

I heard that gold-plated saw dust gel makes RCA cables sound amazing.


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## mires

Don't bother with expensive cables. Go with what you can afford. I have used and can recommend Knukonceptz


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## Sine Swept

I have used raw cable and soldered tips with great results!


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## quality_sound

There is nothing wrong with zip tying RCA's to power wires. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## ebrit003

oldschoolbeats said:


> Over the years ive seen quite a few of these "high dollar" rcas, probably 15 years ago i remember rockford had gamma symmetrys that were in the neighborhood of $250 for a 20 foot 2 channel.... theres a ton of other brands etc that are expensive as well.
> 
> Over the years ive used cheap or somewhat cheap rca's and have never had problems with noise etc, but then again im not that guy that wire ties my rcas too my power wires...... Now that im building a somewhat ok sound quality system(always had systems that were specifically for SPL) and need roughly 13-2 channel rca cables, i do not see myself spending $75 a piece on these.... back in the day the local stereo shop had a rockford van using 45 of those previously mentioned gamma symmetry cables.... probably $10k worth?
> 
> Now for the fact or fiction, does it make that big of a difference in using a $15 rca wire compared to a $100 rca wire? Is it mostly urban legend? Thoughts? And no my SQ system will never be hooked up to any type of monitor or in any type of competition.


There is a difference between the world's cheapest RCA, and a more quality pair of RCAs...I have heard the difference with my own two ears. Hooked up a set of the freebie/cheapies, and then immediately swapped to Musica 200s (was a while ago-lol). The difference was HUGE! With that being said, Musica 200s were Streetwires cheapest series back-in-the-day, so do you need to spend a million dollars on RCAs, NO. Should you use the set that came free with your DVR, NO. 




quality_sound said:


> There is nothing wrong with zip tying RCA's to power wires.
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


Is this for real? B/C I have always heard the contrary. Just curious if you are being sarcastic. I guess I could sit down with a physics book and think it through.




mires said:


> Don't bother with expensive cables. Go with what you can afford. I have used and can recommend Knukonceptz


KNU Konceptz is one of the best things that happened to this industry ever (in terms of interconnect)! I love all of their products. On my last order I screwed it all up, emailed, added/subtracted products... cost came out to about the same, but not exact, they just shipped it anyway with no request for the few extra dollars. High quality stuff! I use it in my home theater, and now in my truck...well eventually, right now it just sits in a box until I get the chance to do some work. LOL

Also keep an eye on Amazon. I have bought 3 Monster 600/500 series RCA cables for less than $10 shipped over the last few years.

Finally, Orange County Speaker Repair has some decent RCA packages - 6 sets for $30... Check out their pro series. I haven't had a chance to use these yet myself, but plan on picking up a couple of the RCA to XLRs soon.


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## Ultimateherts

Ultimateherts said:


> Here's a link to MIT thesis paper I spoke about earlier:
> 
> 
> http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/46225/41567257.pdf



A good read


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## ebrit003

Good read.

I am going to disagree w/ the part of the conclusion that says use the cables that come with the audio gear. I swapped cables (3ft cable) from one that came with the equipment to a slightly upgraded cable w/in seconds in my real-life-experiment, and there was a huge difference with the slightly upgraded cable. The most noticeable difference being an increase in volume. 

However, I do agree that the crazy expensive cables, are a bunch of hype. 

Interesting to think that different cables might work better with different components...


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## The Performer

There are always better than and worse than products available. 

If you are questioning whether 500$ is just a hype for overpriced rcas then you don't need them apparently. For those who do understand why they need them they will buy them. 

When it comes down to it yes there is a difference in the quality. It's the exact same principle as a class d amp versus an a. 

Research, buy what you want. Take advice from the people who install them. Consider what the best installers are using in their own builds. If you settle for cheap you will always question your judgment. 

I've used almost all of them out there and at the end of the day it goes beyond which ones have the best ratings. I'm analytical to every aspect of the cable. I ask myself are the ends cheap and are they going to break as soon as I remove them a few times? 

If you are using **** equipment then don't expect to go anywhere better with other quality parts. 

As far as a suggestion, I'm a big fan of the stinger 8000 series. I wanna say they are right under the 100$ a pair price and they are well made and do great signal delivery. I've used the top shelf audison cables as well and they were great as well. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## WestCo

ebrit003 said:


> Good read.
> 
> I am going to disagree w/ the part of the conclusion that says use the cables that come with the audio gear. I swapped cables (3ft cable) from one that came with the equipment to a slightly upgraded cable w/in seconds in my real-life-experiment, and there was a huge difference with the slightly upgraded cable. The most noticeable difference being an increase in volume.
> 
> However, I do agree that the crazy expensive cables, are a bunch of hype.
> 
> Interesting to think that different cables might work better with different components...


It's an audio system. Individual components can be compared, but in the end it's how everything works together. 

I have heard some competitors say that they have been able to tune their systems (to an extent) using different brand RCA's.

I would also like to highlight that high cost did not always equal high performance. Research the cables you get before you buy. There are some REALLy crappy cables out there selling for 70$ a set.

For me:
Do interconnects matter?
Yes; from personal experience and viewing his results.
In certain situations the extra money is well spent. 
In 97% of the systems being installed in a car buying some vampire wires with nice shielding or some other quality mid grade set will be absolutely fine. Spending over 30$ a set probably isn't worth it.

Most people switch RCA's only if there is a problem with their current set, noise for example. A car is a terrible environment for audio to start with, so shielding/grounding does matter moreso than in a home. 

Bottom line is the source, drivers, and yes amplifiers play a larger role in net system performance than RCA's do. 

If your system starts to cost 2,000-3,000 dollars, then you may want to consider dropping some money on some straightwire encore ii's or the m1000 monster cables (personally I would go with the straightwires). 

I have not had issues with having rca's close to a + power wire; however rapping them around ground wires has caused noise issues for me. I wouldn't wrap them around either of them.


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## WestCo

mires said:


> Don't bother with expensive cables. Go with what you can afford. I have used and can recommend Knukonceptz


The older knu's were solid.
Last two sets I bought had some noise issues for me. 

But my situation is different than everyone else's.


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## WestCo

The Performer said:


> There are always better than and worse than products available.
> 
> If you are questioning whether 500$ is just a hype for overpriced rcas then you don't need them apparently. For those who do understand why they need them they will buy them.
> 
> When it comes down to it yes there is a difference in the quality. It's the exact same principle as a class d amp versus an a.
> 
> Research, buy what you want. Take advice from the people who install them. Consider what the best installers are using in their own builds. If you settle for cheap you will always question your judgment.
> 
> I've used almost all of them out there and at the end of the day it goes beyond which ones have the best ratings. I'm analytical to every aspect of the cable. I ask myself are the ends cheap and are they going to break as soon as I remove them a few times?
> 
> If you are using **** equipment then don't expect to go anywhere better with other quality parts.
> 
> As far as a suggestion, I'm a big fan of the stinger 8000 series. I wanna say they are right under the 100$ a pair price and they are well made and do great signal delivery. I've used the top shelf audison cables as well and they were great as well.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Some class D's have really surprised me on how well they can do.
Some class A/B have really disappointed me.
I have yet to use a true class A amplifier; the arc 4200se (with mods) sitting in my closet is supposed to be an A. So that will be very interesting for me to hear.

It leads me to the question are all class A's superior to class D's or A/B's? 
I would have doubts without doing more research.
The amplifier class strictly encompasses how the transistors in the amp manage output, there are soo many other factors (including the quality of the transistors themselves, general layout of the board, engineering/build quality, etc.) to pass judgement based strictly off of amplifier class probably isn't advisable.

Other than that, I completely agree with you, friend request incoming.

"If you are using **** equipment then don't expect to go anywhere better with other quality parts." - This; 1000 times this. The realization of this is one of the most important steps on taking your system to the next level, provided the installation is optimized.


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## JVD240

My only reason for decent RCA's is noise rejection.

As far as different metals having different sonic characteristics, etc... 

99% of people wouldn't hear those differences sitting in a quiet room with a set of reference headphones, let alone a car going 70mph down the freeway.


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## oldschoolbeats

The Performer said:


> There are always better than and worse than products available.
> 
> If you are questioning whether 500$ is just a hype for overpriced rcas then you don't need them apparently. For those who do understand why they need them they will buy them.
> 
> When it comes down to it yes there is a difference in the quality. It's the exact same principle as a class d amp versus an a.
> 
> Research, buy what you want. Take advice from the people who install them. Consider what the best installers are using in their own builds. If you settle for cheap you will always question your judgment.
> 
> I've used almost all of them out there and at the end of the day it goes beyond which ones have the best ratings. I'm analytical to every aspect of the cable. I ask myself are the ends cheap and are they going to break as soon as I remove them a few times?
> 
> If you are using **** equipment then don't expect to go anywhere better with other quality parts.
> 
> As far as a suggestion, I'm a big fan of the stinger 8000 series. I wanna say they are right under the 100$ a pair price and they are well made and do great signal delivery. I've used the top shelf audison cables as well and they were great as well.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


some people understand why they need $500 rca wires?? I wonder if i can get them to understand why they need $500 per roll toilet paper....and buy it from me


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## Ultimateherts

oldschoolbeats said:


> some people understand why they need $500 rca wires?? I wonder if i can get them to understand why they need $500 per roll toilet paper....and buy it from me


You obviously did not read the paper in the link I sent!!!

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## JVD240

Ultimateherts said:


> You obviously did not read the paper in the link I sent!!!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


Lol. What?

I think he was in agreement with that paper.

Saying that $500 interconnects are silly.


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## namesmeanlittle

ok i have heard free beee's mid grade high grade and 2700 dollar cryo treated ones
i recommend esoteric there is a 20ft pair that where designed for head rest tv connections i use to wrap around my room for my computer 
very good practically dead signal for the distance i get mine at wholesale for 20$ there probably more for you but there built right
just use decent shielded rca's for this and keep good grounds and connections i use steet wire for my trucks amp connections they carry noise so keep them short but there build is ok

most people get mixed up in this end of things these little things matter for what you are doing but high dollar rca's are usually just a name
its also how you run things a lot of how you run things and how much damping your amp has

my zapco z100c2 has a lot of noise because its highly SINSITIVE its sql based extremely detailed and clear (and i don't have the signal boost and noise reduction module with it)
my crown 810 is a commercial amp and you can use thee worst pair of rca's in the world and its quite because its built to be driven with 8 to 10 volts (and is not about the pin being dropped in the background)

also if the gain is fully open then you will hear more of the noise 
but using amp gains can risk weird distortion and frequency distribution of the signal (IF you are splitting one signal over multiple amps) because amps don't have the same pots and dampening
if you used a distribution block (where you have your amps) for your rca's instead of a multiple channel head unit for your full range amps you can leave the amp gains full open have extremely short rca's to the distribution block and set your gains professionally 
you can drive your signal harder and cut some out to minimize distortion and that frequency stuff
(its like the noise is a whisper and if your signal is a normal convo you can hear the whisper if your signal is yelling the whisper is hard to hear)

a better way yet is to make your OWN dampening box 
using caps and coils in front of your amps to remove noise 
dampening also limits surge like when you plug an rca in with signal to it and it about blows something up (or does) it helps limit that
this is also a lot more work

AND ABOUT THE 500$ RCA
some people need them for there equipment if they are running the best sql system there is and have the money to spend
there is nothing wrong with spending money for quality
there is if it is some name and not higher quality equipment


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## yogegoy

I use Mogami bulk cable which I bought from Guitar Center and solder them with this 
It cost $95 for 20 pcs and they are lockable, twisting the barrel sleeve tightens the grip on the RCA female socket. That way I can have the custom length I need for my RCA's.


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## The Performer

JVD240 said:


> Lol. What?
> 
> I think he was in agreement with that paper.
> 
> Saying that $500 interconnects are silly.


500$ rcas aren't silly, some people 
just don't understand it. 

Why do people buy Ferrari's when a camry gets you to the same place? 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## REGULARCAB

The Performer said:


> 500$ rcas aren't silly, some people
> just don't understand it.
> 
> Why do people buy Ferrari's when a camry gets you to the same place?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I'd totally buy the Camry, if it steered the same, sounded the same and went just as fast as the Ferrari then why pay extra for the looks?


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## The Performer

Here's a good analogy for you knuckleheads. 

The little lady bought a sig p238 over a ruger lcp. For those of you who know handguns this is a no brainer... Anyway, at the store I asked her why she wanted the sig over the ruger and pleaded with her that the ruger did all the same things and was the same caliber as the sig but was 300$ less money. 

She picked the sig because it handled and felt so much more comfortable to her than the ruger and double the money was worth having a gun that she was more comfortable with. She said that she was going to be the one carrying it with her on a daily basis and that's all that mattered. 

Now just compare this to your rca argument. Once you get it you won't argue about how there isn't any difference. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## The Performer

REGULARCAB said:


> I'd totally buy the Camry, if it steered the same, sounded the same and went just as fast as the Ferrari then why pay extra for the looks?


So what you are saying is you're a person that doesn't care about the premium aspects of the car ride? That it doesn't matter as long as it gets the job done? 

Then why the hell are you a member of a car stereo forum that strives in improving from the basic sound system that comes factory in the car?

Why don't you just leave the standard 6 1/2 paper cone drivers with the wizzer cones in your doors,and go brag to the world how proud you are of your below mediocre **** you endulge with and how retarded everyone is for improving their quality of listening? 

Makes sense doesn't it. 

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## REGULARCAB

Thats cool, you like the "feel" of your $500 rca's. I personally don't grope my RCA's very often so I would know 

On a serious note i do understand what your saying. But maybe I still dont "get it" because the worth just isnt there for a piece of wire that is laying in my car. If it sounds the same ill go with the cheapest i can get away with.


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## REGULARCAB

The Performer said:


> So what you are saying is you're a person that doesn't care about the premium aspects of the car ride? That it doesn't matter as long as it gets the job done?
> 
> Then why the hell are you a member of a car stereo forum that strives in improving from the basic sound system that comes factory in the car?
> 
> Why don't you just leave the standard 6 1/2 paper cone drivers with the wizzer cones in your doors,and go brag to the world how proud you are of your below mediocre **** you endulge with and how retarded everyone is for improving their quality of listening?
> 
> Makes sense doesn't it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


:inout:


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## WestCo

The Performer said:


> So what you are saying is you're a person that doesn't care about the premium aspects of the car ride? That it doesn't matter as long as it gets the job done?
> 
> Then why the hell are you a member of a car stereo forum that strives in improving from the basic sound system that comes factory in the car?
> 
> Why don't you just leave the standard 6 1/2 paper cone drivers with the wizzer cones in your doors,and go brag to the world how proud you are of your below mediocre **** you endulge with and how retarded everyone is for improving their quality of listening?
> 
> Makes sense doesn't it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I think he meant that if the two cars were identical in performance (but not in looks); he would go with the Camry. I can understand that.

In this hypothetical scenario:
If the cars were on a different track, they would perform differently.

Just as if someone were running focal utopia b's they would want better RCA's because the drivers allow the listener to pick up noise you didn't know existed... they are amazing...


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## Ultimateherts

The Performer said:


> Here's a good analogy for you knuckleheads.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


What a way to start a comment! It's basically saying I know your stupid, but here is why you are!!!

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## The Performer

Ultimateherts said:


> What a way to start a comment! It's basically saying I know your stupid, but here is why you are!!!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


That's actually exactly what i was saying. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## The Performer

REGULARCAB said:


> Thats cool, you like the "feel" of your $500 rca's. I personally don't grope my RCA's very often so I would know
> 
> On a serious note i do understand what your saying. But maybe I still dont "get it" because the worth just isnt there for a piece of wire that is laying in my car. If it sounds the same ill go with the cheapest i can get away with.


And this is exactly the mentality that will always keep your vehicle from sounding as good as others. If you're OK with that then by all means that is perfectly respectable. Just don't go into a scenario where you expect to try and explain to someone that they are wrong for spending more money on their equipment, because odds are they are going to outscore you everytime. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## mires

The Performer said:


> And this is exactly the mentality that will always keep your vehicle from sounding as good as others.


He said IF the cable sounds the same. And the cheapest he CAN GET AWAY WITH. Never did he say that he uses the cheapest piece of crap cables he can find or that there is absolutely no difference between cables. If you think that a set of RCA cables is going to keep his truck from sounding as good as others, you need to get your head checked.


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## REGULARCAB

The Performer said:


> And this is exactly the mentality that will always keep your vehicle from sounding as good as others. If you're OK with that then by all means that is perfectly respectable. Just don't go into a scenario where you expect to try and explain to someone that they are wrong for spending more money on their equipment, because odds are they are going to outscore you everytime.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


So first i will say i never tried to "explain to someone that they are wrong" i merely gave my opinion on the matter. Second, what a dumb thing to argue about. I have found this forum has a ton of people who will gladly debate something in a kind intelligent manner. Thats what i like to see and i have no need to argue.


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## The Performer

mires said:


> He said IF the cable sounds the same. And the cheapest he CAN GET AWAY WITH. Never did he say that he uses the cheapest piece of crap cables he can find or that there is absolutely no difference between cables. If you think that a set of RCA cables is going to keep his truck from sounding as good as others, you need to get your head checked.


Ok I'll give you that I might have misunderstood that a little but regardless I don't have to explain my point very much. I've simply offered my thought on the topic and kept everything honest. 

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## mires

The Performer said:


> Ok I'll give you that I might have misunderstood that a little but regardless I don't have to explain my point very much. I've simply offered my thought on the topic and kept everything honest.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


And I actually do appreciate your input on the subject. I apologize for wording that in kind of a dick way.


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## Hillbilly SQ

I tend to go for my best value on the day of purchase. Nothing wrong with buying a less expensive cable if said cable is built solid. How much or little someone spends on wire shouldn't concern the next person in the least bit. If spending $500 on an rca cable makes your system sound better TO YOU then by all means go for it. It's your money. If you think the fancy cables will give you a higher score on install and sound then by all means spend the money. But when someone makes a decision to buy a well built cable with a price tag that's less than you think they should spend don't even think about putting them down for it. That just makes you look like an elitist jackwagon. And for the record, if someone were to offer me an exotic supercar or a nice sedan like a Camry I would take the supercar and sell it to buy a nice suv and a nice bass boat like an Allison or Gambler. Guess an exotic car has a good use afterallShort fat guys like their comfort


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## mitsukid

I'm wondering if anyone has heard of Stealth Audio Cables.

Here's a link: STEALTH audio cables

Check out the price list. Their highest end RCA analog interconnects are $12,000 for 1 meter, and their highest end speaker cable is $22,000 for 1.5 meters.


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## oldschoolbeats

That's absolutely retarded...


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## WestCo

^^^ yup... lmao


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## Ultimateherts

mitsukid said:


> I'm wondering if anyone has heard of Stealth Audio Cables.
> 
> Here's a link: STEALTH audio cables
> 
> Check out the price list. Their highest end RCA analog interconnects are $12,000 for 1 meter, and their highest end speaker cable is $22,000 for 1.5 meters.


As quoted from their website:

"Moneyback Guarantee
We advice our dealers and distributors to offer money back guarantee for our cables, but we cannot control their sales policies."


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## oldschoolbeats

How could a dealer or distributor afford to stock a shelf full of $22,000 cables.... you could fit a million dollars worth in a shoe box...


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## oldschoolbeats

The Performer said:


> And this is exactly the mentality that will always keep your vehicle from sounding as good as others. If you're OK with that then by all means that is perfectly respectable. Just don't go into a scenario where you expect to try and explain to someone that they are wrong for spending more money on their equipment, because odds are they are going to outscore you everytime.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


You must own some retarded expensive cables don't you.....


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## captainobvious

I think paying a _little_ extra for cables isn't a big deal provided they have the following qualities:
-aesthetics you're looking for
-durable, high quality barrels with quality construction
-strain relief
-properly shielded cable with a durable jacket


Can all of those things be had for cheap prices? For sure, with the aesthetics being the most difficult. However, there always seems to be a stigma that a cheaper cable is an inferior performer. Personally, I feel that once you can check those things off the list, you're not gaining a performance edge. You may gain more piece of mind, or prefer the weight, feel or look of the cables more but you're not making gains in performance once you deliver the signal as produced from the source. Shield out noise, keep voltage drop as low as possible and provide a durable solid connection...that's what you need.


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## oldschoolbeats

I agree, one thing I have noticed is that RCA's of today are nothing like the RCA's of 15 years ago. I just received 17 sets of stinger 4000 series RCA's ranging from 1.5' 2 channel to 12' 6 channel, I only paid about $180 for all of them, if I walked into a stereo shop 15 years ago and bought that many mid grade RCA's it would have cost me probably $800-$1000. I'm happy with them and I'm sure they will sound fine for my ears. If I were competing I may get RCA's with heavier jackets or make my own, for my old school setup with 16 different components it will work just fine


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## Victor_inox

No rca will look better then thisWBT Nextgen RCA Connector Platinum Plated Red | 093-612
No 99.9% of people will ever distinguish that from this


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## peenemunde

I posted almost this exact thread about 3 weeks ago and found the same information. People will swear by this and that, but what it boils down to in the end is getting a cable that offers everything you want for a price you want to pay. I just ordered some DIYMA RCA's for 80% off with their year end coupon code and I'm sure they will deliever every bit of quality that I am wanting from them. Don't buy the cheapest crap out their for fear of it being faulty or breaking after a short amount of time. But will a $500 pair of RCA's be worth it musically over a pair of $35 cables? Probably not

I've been told the Stinger 4000 series is a good quality cable that offers longevity and durability for a great price


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## namesmeanlittle

just wandering........ why don't you get one set of good ones from the signal to a driver that can push a correct 6 to 8 volts and set amp gains lower to compensate?
or 2 why not just get the right 3 way cables (or advanced ones) ? i use zapco and there cables are usually better than any rca because they have a shielded chassis ground... ya know from one amp case with a ground in the other shell to another plus each channel is further separately grounded.
Cuz pro audio stuff usually ends up using there own signal ground... i have a 810 crown and each signal input has + - and ground to minimize signal interference, amps run compliantly separate except for the power supply its a decent sq commercial amp extremely low distortion.
just wandering...


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## oldschoolbeats

namesmeanlittle said:


> just wandering........ why don't you get one set of good ones from the signal to a driver that can push a correct 6 to 8 volts and set amp gains lower to compensate?
> or 2 why not just get the right 3 way cables (or advanced ones) ? i use zapco and there cables are usually better than any rca because they have a shielded chassis ground... ya know from one amp case with a ground in the other shell to another plus each channel is further separately grounded.
> Cuz pro audio stuff usually ends up using there own signal ground... i have a 810 crown and each signal input has + - and ground to minimize signal interference, amps run compliantly separate except for the power supply its a decent sq commercial amp extremely low distortion.
> just wandering...


You wander a lot..


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## namesmeanlittle

oldschoolbeats said:


> You wander a lot..


yes i do a whole lot... and i was thinking... if this is in a car right? why does an rca matter so much? the car will be 70 to 80 db's on a good day with the engine running plus exterior noise. so if you have a 55 to 60 db hiss you can't hear it anyway? you spending any money over 20$ on an rca (unless its running next to the power wire) doesn't make a lick of since at all. In a house it makes a lot if since but in a car the rca's are the least of your worries unless it is going to be a show car.
And my cousin got a pair of 2200$ (extra shielded creo treated half inch think 24k gold plated wire) or crazy priced rca's in his house... he can't tell the difference on a MUSICAL CONCEPT 220 hafler with altec 803 or 805 horns and the 15 driver... to the rca's in the home audio section at magnum distribution (good place to shop wholesale for dealers tell Carl i sent him your bossiness) the esoteric rca's the higher grade ones probably don't fetch over 100 to 120$ retail. So am.... ya.... can you piss your money on me, SHOWER ME IN YOUR MONEY i won't be as wasteful.


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## luisc202

I use middle line ones as some are outrageous these days. I have used high end RCA's and could not hear any difference.


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## BassnTruck

mitsukid said:


> I'm wondering if anyone has heard of Stealth Audio Cables.
> 
> Here's a link: STEALTH audio cables
> 
> Check out the price list. Their highest end RCA analog interconnects are $12,000 for 1 meter, and their highest end speaker cable is $22,000 for 1.5 meters.


LOL There is a reason they are high as a kite.



stealthaudiocables said:


> STEALTH para-vacuum tube is a hermetically sealed flexible tube filled with Helium.


----------



## 1fishman

15-20 years ago In home audio, I tried many RCAs. I told a shop owner that i really never heard much difference between all those RCA's. He let me use his personal StraightWire Maestro RCA's. 
The difference was night and day. Depth, space, and details were very different on my Tube amp & martin logan Sequel speakers . I could not go back to my old RCA's. I spent some big bucks for those RCAs'. I'm kind of cheap when it comes to home audio and never bought much new equipment, but those brand new high dollar RCA's were the easiest big purchase i ever made for audio gear. 

I wonder how they would compare to other RCAs' nowadays.


----------



## Victor_inox

It`s OK to believe if you want to believe. 
I tried many different brands/ technologies, newer seeing any measurable difference.
Pure silver wires, cryogenic treatment, even gold wires, most exotic being filled with liquid nitrogen (that one was tested in the lab. 
Never heard any difference betweet $50 and $5000 cable. maybe if I jump to 12000 cable... but I HONESTLY DON`T THINK SO.


----------



## JVD240

1fishman said:


> 15-20 years ago In home audio, I tried many RCAs. I told a shop owner that i really never heard much difference between all those RCA's. He let me use his personal StraightWire Maestro RCA's.
> The difference was night and day. Depth, space, and details were very different on my Tube amp & martin logan Sequel speakers . I could not go back to my old RCA's. I spent some big bucks for those RCAs'. I'm kind of cheap when it comes to home audio and never bought much new equipment, but those brand new high dollar RCA's were the easiest big purchase i ever made for audio gear.
> 
> I wonder how they would compare to other RCAs' nowadays.


They(you) were also the shop owner's easiest sale. Hahah.


----------



## Victor_inox

I can only imagine how awesome any amp will sound if every thin copper trace on the board were made of that magic crap
Helium filled tube seriously?!


----------



## 1fishman

JVD240 said:


> They(you) were also the shop owner's easiest sale. Hahah.


Yep, with no regrets

I tried to see if i could find those same RCAs used on Ebay, just to see if they would make any difference on my van. Or more like if i could hear any difference with ears being 50 plus years old. Out of production for 10 years and they are still sell more than i want to spend for an experiment. maybe one day if come across a good deal... Right now my $8 Ixos 600's are prefect for my budget, and my ears.


----------



## helpmeplease

Car audio really is ridiculous....jesus


----------



## BassnTruck

helpmeplease said:


> Car audio really is ridiculous....jesus


This dude must sell high dollar magic RCAs.


----------



## WestCo

mires said:


> Don't bother with expensive cables. Go with what you can afford. I have used and can recommend Knukonceptz


I make my own cables. I sell a few on the side. 5x better than KNU for noise rejection.

I use Canare Star Quad wire (each channel has its own cable) and reasonably priced plugs that hold up well. The design rejects noise and this can be measured with an oscope.

Pm me if anyone is having noise problems, I can hook you up. 

Here are some simple tests you can do to gauge the quality of RCA cables:

1) The simplest and most basic is a resistance test. IMHO if you have any set of cables measuring over 0.4ohms resistance the conductor used in the cables is really bad. There is no reason cables costing over 40$ should register above 0.2-0.3 ohms for a 20 foot run.

Here are a few pics of the cables I make:
Resistance:
Baseline: 0.1ohm (blank measurement)



Measured Resistance: (0.1 ohm - baseline subtracted) - 17 foot run of cable


2) Noise test

The simplest noise test you can do at home uses an extension cord and any AC current appliance to draw a significant current through the AC wire. AC current alternates around 60 hz. At high enough levels this can also be AUDIABLE through a HT system when the preamps is set to a high volume.



A simple test is to take the cable and warp it many times around the extension cord. With the cable connected to any source and amp increase the system volume (with no music playing). Listen to the noise level of the system.

Now turn on the appliance connected to the extension cord ON and if you hear any difference in the noise your cables are not well shielded.

If you want to go more indepth you can use an oscope like a mini DSO. Disconnect the speakers and connect the mini dso to the Amp's output and monitor the noise levels with the appliance off and with it on. The noise should register at or around 60 hz.

Here is a comparision:
1st some 70$ RCA's. They are ascetically pleasing but do little to reject EMI.


Canare wire I use. Note we are using the same scale for BOTH images


Simple easy things you guys can do to gauge the quality of your RCA's.


----------



## WestCo

JVD240 said:


> They(you) were also the shop owner's easiest sale. Hahah.


Straight wires are very good cables. Their encore II cables are probably the best value for serious setups.

There is a difference in the sound stage with cables. You need a good system to hear it. But it does change things.


----------



## rton20s

WestCo, you have any photos of a completed set of your RCAs with the ends attached?


----------



## WestCo

rton20s said:


> WestCo, you have any photos of a completed set of your RCAs with the ends attached?










I can also do 90 degree ends if space behind the HU is a problem.


----------



## WestCo

They are very flexible and I guarantee all cables for 5 years.
Unless the wire is physically cut, I'll repair them free of charge.


----------



## Nismo

WestCo, any experience using the Canare vs. Belden 8412? I have a bag full of ends, and I'm thinking about making my own, since I need some Y cables as well. I just don't want to burn money if its not beneficial.

Eric


----------



## WestCo

I don't want to thread jack either. Really wanted to show people that there are simple ways to test for noise and gauge the quality of their RCA's.

Different cables DO have different sonic properties. The cables I posted have a very nice top end, mids and mid bass is forward sounding. I like them ^.^

The extent you can hear a difference 100% depends on the quality of components you are running. Source, speakers, amps, and RCA's. Also you're ears. 

Like anything there is a level of diminishing returns. No point in buying high dollar RCA's on a 50$ deck and $100 amp, no real befit there. 

The cables above I can make/sell for 42.50$ shipped (2 channel 17 foot and cost decreases for smaller lengths). Where ever you stand on the "can make an audible difference" debate, they do reject noise well.


----------



## WestCo

Nismo said:


> WestCo, any experience using the Canare vs. Belden 8412? I have a bag full of ends, and I'm thinking about making my own, since I need some Y cables as well. I just don't want to burn money if its not beneficial.
> 
> Eric


I haven't had any experience with the Belden cables. I did look at the specs and they look pretty good.

The shielding coverage is good 85% but the cables are pretty wide 0.25 inches.

And the resistance is 0.035 ohms/meter. Pretty par for the course, I think that if for one conductor (that wire has two).

I like Star Quad wires, they seem to do better at rejecting EMI and give a more neutral transfer. 

I would look at these or Canare's offerings. 
Mogami Wire & Cable Corp. Mogami W2534 Neglex Quad Microphone Cable Bulk Audio Cable at Markertek.com

Specifically look for EMI and RI rejection. I think you could do better for RCA's than 2.5$/foot than the Beldens. If you do go with the Beldens I would use both conducting leads per RCA channel. Honest opinion.

You could always sell me the RCA ends and I can put em to good use if you decide not to diy it


----------



## thehatedguy

i like mogami


----------



## Nismo

*SORRY FOR THREAD JACKING...BUT IT IS RELATED!*



WestCo said:


> I haven't had any experience with the Belden cables. I did look at the specs and they look pretty good.
> 
> The shielding coverage is good 85% but the cables are pretty wide 0.25 inches.
> 
> And the resistance is 0.035 ohms/meter. Pretty par for the course, I think that if for one conductor (that wire has two).
> 
> I like Star Quad wires, they seem to do better at rejecting EMI and give a more neutral transfer.
> 
> I would look at these or Canare's offerings.
> Mogami Wire & Cable Corp. Mogami W2534 Neglex Quad Microphone Cable Bulk Audio Cable at Markertek.com
> 
> Specifically look for EMI and RI rejection. I think you could do better for RCA's than 2.5$/foot than the Beldens. If you do go with the Beldens I would use both conducting leads per RCA channel. Honest opinion.
> 
> You could always sell me the RCA ends and I can put em to good use if you decide not to diy it


Which Canare are you using? I've looked at the Belden 8412 for years, but am dismayed at it's cost climbing like crazy. It was recommended to me a long time ago, and was tested using an O-scope, while being run through a subwoofer coil (to introduce EMI) vs. twisted pair.

My issues with the 8412 are as you mentioned: cost and size. I'm not sure what the point of the quad is (I'd love to know more) and how they're wired. I'd like to keep the wire size small, and the shielding high. I found this: L-2T2S

Eric


----------



## WestCo

Nismo said:


> *SORRY FOR THREAD JACKING...BUT IT IS RELATED!*
> 
> 
> 
> Which Canare are you using? I've looked at the Belden 8412 for years, but am dismayed at it's cost climbing like crazy. It was recommended to me a long time ago, and was tested using an O-scope, while being run through a subwoofer coil (to introduce EMI) vs. twisted pair.
> 
> My issues with the 8412 are as you mentioned: cost and size. I'm not sure what the point of the quad is (I'd love to know more) and how they're wired. I'd like to keep the wire size small, and the shielding high. I found this: L-2T2S
> 
> Eric


Canare Corporation Of America Canare L-4E6S Star-Quad Microphone Cable Bulk Audio Cable at Markertek.com

That is the wire I use. Very good wire especially for the cost per foot, resistance, flexibility, EMI/RF rejection, and ease of use. To get the most out of it you use all 4 center conductors for the signal lead of the RCA. For balanced applications you can use 2 white for + and 2 blue for -. 

I use one wire for each channel, gives a good transfer and less chance for crosstalk.

Quad star was initially designed for use in balanced applications. BUT it can be used for unbalanced applications and also works well.

Why it is effective?
The general principal in balanced lines is that each of the conductors is exposed to an equivalent amount of electro-magnetic and radio interference. If one wire was exposed to more EMI than another, that would appear as noise in a balanced line. If the positive and negative leads are segmented into two or more separate lines, there is less of a possibility of that happening.

In unbalanced applications there is only one signal lead and a ground/shield. Most of the EMI rejection is accomplished by the copper shield, so high coverage is desired. 

Star-quad gives the cable maker some options.
1) You can use all 4 center conductors to act as signal carries. This is what Straight wire does with their encore ii interconnects. 

2) In especially bad noise environments you can connect two of the inner conductors to a ground (usually on the source side of the wire ONLY to prevent ground loops) this offers some additional EMI resistance. I would only use this configuration if I absolutely had to as you get a better transfer using all 4 in the signal lead. And the shielding on the wire is 95% + coverage... we subjected the wire to very harsh conditions and there was very little noise (nothing was audible at max volume).

You get a more neutral signal transfer with star-quad because the signal is split into 4 wires as opposed to one larger bundle. Each of the wires has its own jacket, and doing so gives you more insulation for each conductor and equal exposure to any present EM field. Any inductance generated by the small amount of current which pass through the wire is split (relatively equally) 4 ways instead of one way (if one central conductor was used). 

Theoretically there can be voltage through a circuit without their being a voltage, RCA cables work under this principal. However in electronics every time there is a voltage there will be some (minor) inductance caused by small amounts of current flowing through a wire. Example a voltmeter draws a current, that is how it measures voltage.


----------



## The Dude

Great post, thanks for sharing this. 




WestCo said:


> I make my own cables. I sell a few on the side. 5x better than KNU for noise rejection.
> 
> I use Canare Star Quad wire (each channel has its own cable) and reasonably priced plugs that hold up well. The design rejects noise and this can be measured with an oscope.
> 
> Pm me if anyone is having noise problems, I can hook you up.
> 
> Here are some simple tests you can do to gauge the quality of RCA cables:
> Simple easy things you guys can do to gauge the quality of your RCA's.


----------



## WestCo

The Dude said:


> Great post, thanks for sharing this.


No problem. This was the general methodology we used when determining which cables would do a good job at noise reduction. 

Also when DIYing your own cables low inductance is more important than low capacitance.


----------



## basher8621

Did you test the Encore you got from me?


----------



## WestCo

basher8621 said:


> Did you test the Encore you got from me?


They are already installed in on of my vehicles. 
Wonderful cables


----------



## basher8621

Glad you like them. I went with rhapsody to replace them.


----------



## WestCo

basher8621 said:


> Glad you like them. I went with rhapsody to replace them.


Nice!
You like the rhapsody's better?


----------



## basher8621

Havent hooked them up yet.


----------



## namesmeanlittle

Victor_inox said:


> I can only imagine how awesome any amp will sound if every thin copper trace on the board were made of that magic crap
> Helium filled tube seriously?!


WAIT... helium filled tube?!!?.... so you paid for a tube because it had a new car smell that will wear out?

ya know you need the 22000 cables too and lead shielding on the whole car body... some tubes ran of a ac generator 2 isolation transformers, cover the car in more tin ground the body 247 never bother with home audio why spend 22000 in something with a decent listening environment


----------



## vivmike

oldschoolbeats said:


> You wander a lot..


This made me burst. Lol.


----------



## buffalobill989

what about the 90 deg connectors? I see some on ebay from china that are under 2 bucks then you look and some companies want $10 for 2. I tend to run the middle of the pack rca's. I use the stinger 6000 series and have been completely satisified


----------



## WestCo

I think a big thing that people forget is that sound as an electrical wave or through air has to pass through a medium.

That medium will invariably alter the wave... 
To the extent that matters is based on your system. 

500$ Walmart system. Get whatever RCA's you can find for cheap

1,500$ system and up, it would be advisable to get something quality or you will start having loss and loosing some detail.

This whole debate exists because people can't hear a big difference on an "average" receiver and drivers. The difference is there and maybe subtle, but at a certain level even 3-5% improvements are worth it. I have probably posted this before... o well here it is again lmao.

Back to building cables...


----------



## namesmeanlittle

WestCo said:


> I think a big thing that people forget is that sound as an electrical wave or through air has to pass through a medium.
> 
> That medium will invariably alter the wave...
> To the extent that matters is based on your system.
> 
> 500$ Walmart system. Get whatever RCA's you can find for cheap
> 
> 1,500$ system and up, it would be advisable to get something quality or you will start having loss and loosing some detail.
> 
> This whole debate exists because people can't hear a big difference on an "average" receiver and drivers. The difference is there and maybe subtle, but at a certain level even 3-5% improvements are worth it. I have probably posted this before... o well here it is again lmao.
> 
> Back to building cables...


i like how you put it. so Krell 5000$ rca's Audioson elites 500$ PHD 50$ mtx 5$ rockford re audio and kicker , just don't hook up.


----------



## The Performer

You don't put 200$ tires on a Ferrari... 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## vivmike

Just buy WestCo's cables.


----------



## WestCo

The Performer said:


> You don't put 200$ tires on a Ferrari...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


AMEN

Roughly 1/11 to 1/8 the total cost of the system should be spent on interconnects. There is no perfect ratio. And some high dollar gear isn't that stellar either. And some cheaper amps turn out to be pleasant surprises. Cough cough old school lanzar opt's.

Doing research and asking people you KNOW are knowledgeable is always the way to go. 

Even with interconnects high dollar does not always equal high quality.


----------



## WestCo

vivmike said:


> Just buy WestCo's cables.


Thank you sir!


----------



## The Performer

WestCo said:


> AMEN
> 
> Roughly 1/11 to 1/8 the total cost of the system should be spent on interconnects. There is no perfect ratio. And some high dollar gear isn't that stellar either. And some cheaper amps turn out to be pleasant surprises. Cough cough old school lanzar opt's.
> 
> Doing research and asking people you KNOW are knowledgeable is always the way to go.
> 
> Even with interconnects high dollar does not always equal high quality.


If your 1/11 ratio is true then my wife's car will require over 500$ in signal cables...  

Granted were talking the big "if" all equipment was paid retail. Haha. 

In all seriousness, it's already decided that the car is getting 5 pairs of stinger 8000 series once the rest of the amps come along. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Can you guys here your wife nag when she's on the other side of the house and your in the garage with the compressor going? Because that's the type of argument your making for expensive cables. The environment, tuning, and speakers will ALWAYS be a FAR larger weak spot than your cables. In fact add the source and amplifier to that list as well. And that's true no matter the cost of your equipment, provided your wire is adequately shielded and your not running hundreds to thousands of feet of it.

Tell me this, what's the harmonic distortion percentage a "bad" cable adds to the system? How about the frequency response deviations? This stuff can be measured. Your ears are not a good enough determination for this kind of thing.


----------



## JVD240

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Can you guys here your wife nag when she's on the other side of the house and your in the garage with the compressor going? Because that's the type of argument your making for expensive cables. The environment, tuning, and speakers will ALWAYS be a FAR larger weak spot than your cables. In fact add the source and amplifier to that list as well. And that's true no matter the cost of your equipment, provided your wire is adequately shielded and your not running hundreds to thousands of feet of it.
> 
> Tell me this, what's the harmonic distortion percentage a "bad" cable adds to the system? How about the frequency response deviations? This stuff can be measured. Your ears are not a good enough determination for this kind of thing.


Well said.

If the difference is nearly immeasurable your ears are definitely not going to hear it.

There's been many articles on this.

WestCo can say all he'd like about what he hears. Post some measurements to back up such statements.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Those who are fans of the idea that cables make a difference will always place the burden on those who disagree and make it a subjective variable. Then, no evidence is ever required! "I can hear the difference, why can't you?"


----------



## BigRed

There is no audible difference in cables. there is plenty of scientific tests and a/b blind tests to support it on the internet from reputable people. The whole measurable difference is like saying a speaker with -80 hd is better than a speaker with -77hd. Both cannot be heard


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nismo

JVD240 said:


> Well said.
> 
> If the difference is nearly immeasurable your ears are definitely not going to hear it.
> 
> There's been many articles on this.
> 
> WestCo can say all he'd like about what he hears. Post some measurements to back up such statements.


Personally, I'm wanting good cables, but I don't need Kimber or other magically delicious stuff. I plan to use a good mic cable, and my own Streetwires ends that I bought years ago in bulk.

I'd rather spend less money on cables, but I'm not going to buy WalMart ones either. My problem has been finding quality cable at a reasonable price.

Eric


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

BigRed said:


> There is no audible difference in cables. there is plenty of scientific tests and a/b blind tests to support it on the internet from reputable people. The whole measurable difference is like saying a speaker with -80 hd is better than a speaker with -77hd. Both cannot be heard
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely agreed, which is why I asked. If there is such a difference, then it would absolutely be obvious in measurements.


----------



## JVD240

Nismo said:


> Personally, I'm wanting good cables, but I don't need Kimber or other magically delicious stuff. I plan to use a good mic cable, and my own Streetwires ends that I bought years ago in bulk.
> 
> I'd rather spend less money on cables, but I'm not going to buy WalMart ones either. My problem has been finding quality cable at a reasonable price.
> 
> Eric


I'm the same way. I know electrically there is not much difference so I chose cable based on installation requirements... and often for esthetic reasons.

Mostly just use a good quality 22-2 shielded microphone cable these days. If I need to run large bundles of wire I'll use something tiny like Belden 9451.


----------



## WestCo

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Absolutely agreed, which is why I asked. If there is such a difference, then it would absolutely be obvious in measurements.


Completely system and listener based.

With some of the amps, speakers, and source units currently being produced it will be difficult to distinguish between cables. There are practical limits to everything.

Cables can affect staging (that has been my findings), and noise levels especially in a car audio environment. You need pretty sensitive equipment to hear the difference, that is part of it.

Even if you are in the "they all sound the same crowd" you can subject cables to harsh EM environments and hear noise. At a bare minimum that is an audible effect. 

I will agree that a decent "budget" pair of cables is going to be good enough for most people, but it never hurts to spend a little more to get interconnects that won't give you noise. Less noise = more detail in the sound, provided the amplifier and speakers have the sensitivity to reproduce the detail. 

I don't see how anyone could argue against that when you can generate noise with an extension cord, see it with an o-scope, and hear it though an amplified sound system. Do the test, it takes 10 minutes, switch cables the noise level will change; that is the simplest proof of principal.

Also take 5 strands of copper, insulate it, add RCA connectors, and listen.

Then take 50 strands of copper, insulate it, add RCA connectors, and listen on a good system. 

It takes time and a little effort. But if we love audio, we take that time, and do those tests. Car audio is not 100% install. There is both gear selection and matching/tuning that plays a huge roll in the end sound. Understanding that allows people to take the next steps and put together systems that are breathtaking. 

When people start thinking "it all sounds the same" and adamantly stick to that belief then they really are shooting themselves in the foot.


----------



## WestCo

Realistically in order of importance

1) the source unit and drivers
2) the dsp and amps
3) the RCAs
4) speaker wire

3 and 4 aren't going to be noticed much if 1 and 2 are weak. It's that simple of an equation, at least for me. Speaker wire make a very small difference but if it makes even a mild improvement and you are competing, you do anything to get the edge on your competition. 

Like RCA's there is no point whatsoever in upgrading you speaker cable to silver or silver litz if 1-3 are only of average performance.


----------



## JVD240

Again. You keep talking about listening tests. Do some measurements.

Your ears are not better than the devices designed to measure these parameters.


----------



## WestCo

JVD240 said:


> Again. You keep talking about listening tests. Do some measurements.
> 
> Your ears are not better than the devices designed to measure these parameters.


Test Results: HiFi RCA Noise Rejection

Done.


----------



## cmusic

I believe that a cable should transmit the audio signal from one component to the other without any changes. If the audio signal is changed by the cable, then it is a bad cable no matter its price. Many audiophiles that use expensive cables are actually using inferior made cables that have high value combinations of the RLC trio. These cables are essentially un-adjustable tone controls (bass/treble) in the systems, since many audiophiles refuse to use tone controls or an equalizer in their systems.


----------



## [email protected]

Rejecting noise and making the stage wider or have more depth are two totally different things. What does a "good" cable add to the signal if there is no noise to enter it in the first place?


----------



## JVD240

WestCo said:


> Test Results: HiFi RCA Noise Rejection
> 
> Done.


Seems legit...

EDIT: Thank you, Scott! Haha. I really didn't want to have to quote a bunch of his previous posts.


----------



## WestCo

[email protected] said:


> Rejecting noise and making the stage wider or have more depth are two totally different things. What does a "good" cable add to the signal if there is no noise to enter it in the first place?


There is no addition of anything.

There is only a change from the source.

Here is my explanation. Sound, wither it is an electrical wave or an audible wave, must pass through a medium. 

Look at air for an audible (mechanical) wave. As the sound leaves the speaker it is changed by the medium in which is passes through. Move away from the speaker the magnitude of the wave decreases because it passes through more air.

Now look at sound as a mechanical wave and cover your ears. Even more destructive interference as it now has to pass by your hands.

The same is true if an electrical signal passes through a cable. I don't care what conductor you use, the waveform is going to change. 

Principals
1) In theory you can have a voltage without a current. However in practice that is not the case in an audio system. If that was the case there would be no Pioneer decks with pico fuse issues when RCA's are "hot swapped".

2) Where there is a current there is also an electric field. The field can subject the sound-wave to interference.

3) A good cable will prevent excessive EM effects on the source signal. 
http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf
- I will admit that some of that is out of left field, but there is a good majority of the text that is useful. Especially with regards to skin effects. 

4) The signal conductor(s) their construction, configuration, and the metal used in the cable itself can all effect the wave.
Google Litz wire, which by design does not alter an EM wave as it passes through the cable. Expensive, but worth it for some people.

What happens when the signal passes through the cable is some frequencies experience more interference than others. (There is no enhancement.) That is how staging can change. 

Again it's all a question of the listener's hearing and the other system components. GZ is rumored to have some pretty nice gear. Assemble the best system you can and send me your address. I can give loan you some "demo" cables to check out and you can see exactly what I mean. Heck I will even cover the return shipping.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Again, I'm not talking about noise. Show me that the cable changes the waveform enough to hear it. Show me in terms of distortion or frequency response change. If it doesn't alter those things significantly, and its insulated enough from noise not to lower the noise floor, then there is absolutely nothing to be gained. Period. 

There's no way the source is first. Maybe the source material, but the head unit isn't anywhere close to being the weak point that the environment and speakers are, period. In fact, if the environment and speakers were as good as the source unit and amps and cable, there would be no need for dsp.


----------



## WestCo

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Again, I'm not talking about noise. Show me that the cable changes the waveform enough to hear it. Show me in terms of distortion or frequency response change. If it doesn't alter those things significantly, and its insulated enough from noise not to lower the noise floor, then there is absolutely nothing to be gained. Period.
> 
> There's no way the source is first. Maybe the source material, but the head unit isn't anywhere close to being the weak point that the environment and speakers are, period. In fact, if the environment and speakers were as good as the source unit and amps and cable, there would be no need for dsp.


Look, I have gone out of my way to offer assistance and enlightenment on the issues.

If you want a bad cable I can make you one and you can listen to it. 
And make you a decent one and you can hear the difference.
Yes with the exact same shielding.
Just send me your address and I can get them out on Monday.

Buy a boss deck from amazon (cheapest you can find) a/b it to whatever source you have in your car. Even Pioneer will be significantly better.

The source unit can have just as much variation as a set of speakers. It is where the signal starts... And I have run some BAD sources in my car and some GREAT ones. lol

I am not trying to be difficult, only saying what I have learned over time and through significant expense. If cables make no difference to you, I am 100% ok on that. But to say there is absolutely no audible difference in interconnects is inaccurate. That is my entire point. 

RCA's are #3 in system importance not #1. Move the drivers to #1 and the source to #2 etc, or mix and match the first ones however you want. That does not change the discussion significantly. 

Your DSP also can significantly alter the sound as it takes the waveform and converts it to ones and zeros, does digital manipulations, and then does another conversion back to analog. There is going to be loss/change there no matter how well you do it.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

WestCo said:


> Look, I have gone out of my way to offer assistance and enlightenment on the issues.
> 
> I'm not trying to discount that at all, its just proven science says otherwise.
> 
> If you want a bad cable I can make you one and you can listen to it.
> And make you a decent one and you can hear the difference.
> Yes with the exact same shielding.
> Just send me your address and I can get them out on Monday.
> 
> I have radio shack cables, monster cables, home made cables using shielded microphone cable, scosche cable, and aside from noise issues with the radio shack ones, they all sound the same. That goes whether using them on my dad's BOSE 301's, my home made towers, or my Hybrid Audio L6SE/L1 Pro R2 combo in the house. I'll get out my scope as soon as I can and measure them.
> 
> Buy a boss deck from amazon (cheapest you can find) a/b it to whatever source you have in your car. Even Pioneer will be significantly better.
> 
> And the frequency response and or distortion will be measurably different.
> 
> The source unit can have just as much variation as a set of speakers. It is where the signal starts... And I have run some BAD sources in my car and some GREAT ones. lol
> 
> I have NEVER seen a source unit have as much frequency response or distortion variations as even the best of the best speakers.
> 
> I am not trying to be difficult, only saying what I have learned over time and through significant expense. If cables make no difference to you, I am 100% ok on that. But to say there is absolutely no audible difference in interconnects is inaccurate. That is my entire point.
> 
> But, if there is an audible difference, it can be proven with objective measurements, and I'm not talking about noise. I'm simply going off my experience and my dads (30 years as an electrical engineer designing power supplies for all kinds of things, some of which protect this country and go into space).
> 
> RCA's are #3 in system importance not #1. Move the drivers to #1 and the source to #2 etc, or mix and match the first ones however you want. That does not change the discussion significantly.
> 
> Your still missing the environment itself. That will change frequency response, and all forms of distortion that you hear more than anything else. #2 is the speakers. They have more frequency response and distortion variation than any of the other electronic pieces. Then you can say amps and sources, since they're distortion and frequency response is ALWAYS better than the previous two items, unless they are damaged.
> 
> Your DSP also can significantly alter the sound as it takes the waveform and converts it to ones and zeros, does digital manipulations, and then does another conversion back to analog. There is going to be loss/change there no matter how well you do it.
> 
> Absolutely, but the digital to analog conversion has be blind tested, and in good testing, people just can't tell when it is or isn't being done.


I'll measure my cables when I get the chance. Like I said, no one I know has ever heard a difference, and my ears are still very good, benefits of wearing ear plugs at work every day.


----------



## WestCo

Cool man, I'll be able to demonstrate the difference to you.

What's your setup like?


----------



## JVD240

Demonstrate the difference by posting data?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I'm not trying to be rude but your argument isn't linear. Better cable adds depth, stage, and tonality vs bad/cheap interconnects. You back this up with a picture of an oscilloscope showing interference from a magnetic field.

I've read an awful lot on this topic and it's nothing new around here. There's been lots of technical papers and even stories of people who wired up systems with lamp cords find(found) in a trash and people still couldn't tell a difference in blind a/b.

Other than your unproven thought, it's not much of an argument. We all try to maintain good prices to reduce noise that can be picked up but that doesn't include special wires.

I do agree that I prefer week(well) constructed rca's, but not because it adds fidelity or anything else.


Edit: I hate auto correct


----------



## REGULARCAB

:snacks: this got good again


----------



## WestCo

JVD240 said:


> Demonstrate the difference by posting data?


Ok I will attempt to measure the differences. But I have about orders to complete first >.<


----------



## boricua69

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Absolutely agreed, which is why I asked. If there is such a difference, then it would absolutely be obvious in measurements.


Measure zapco reference amps with normal rca then used symbylink and let me know! What about amps with differencial balance rca input!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Doesn't really matter if the signal coming in isn't balanced. Besides, were not talking about noise, were talking about sonic differences from the cables changing the signal.


----------



## BigRed

Put the pipe down 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## el_bob-o

Is that the magic smoke I am always hearing so much about?





BigRed said:


> Put the pipe down
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BigRed

el_bob-o said:


> Is that the magic smoke I am always hearing so much about?


yes, a lot of people out here on it


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

BigRed said:


> Put the pipe down
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol awesome


----------



## WestCo

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll measure my cables when I get the chance. Like I said, no one I know has ever heard a difference, and my ears are still very good, benefits of wearing ear plugs at work every day.
> 
> Look, I have gone out of my way to offer assistance and enlightenment on the issues.
> 
> I'm not trying to discount that at all, its just proven science says otherwise.
> 
> 
> What science are you referring to?
> 
> If you are referring to the one paper by R. A. Cooper, one gets the impression that cables do not matter. In fact he says in the manuscript that speakers play a larger role than interconnects, he does not say that interconnects don't matter. He is correct, RCA's and speaker wire do not play as large a role as other speaker components.
> 
> You will find that for MOST audio systems he is probably right, this is not true for all systems.
> 
> He is mostly basing these claims off of THD values and noise. THD is only somewhat important. Realistically most humans cannot distinguish between 1% and 0.1% THD; to give you any indication of how meanless THD really is.
> 
> Low THD is not equivalent to high fidelity. There is an excellent paper on the topic that I will try to find.
> 
> 
> If you want a bad cable I can make you one and you can listen to it.
> And make you a decent one and you can hear the difference.
> Yes with the exact same shielding.
> Just send me your address and I can get them out on Monday.
> 
> I have radio shack cables, monster cables, home made cables using shielded microphone cable, scosche cable, and aside from noise issues with the radio shack ones, they all sound the same. That goes whether using them on my dad's BOSE 301's, my home made towers, or my Hybrid Audio L6SE/L1 Pro R2 combo in the house. I'll get out my scope as soon as I can and measure them.
> 
> I ran Scott's L1 pro (not the ring radiator); for the L1 pro it's performance does not match its price. I don't mean to insult your gear, but that is my honest impression (I am also braced for any bashing of me to follow, sorry I didn't like them)
> 
> The L6SE, L6, L8 are wonderful drivers and he has done a good job with them.
> 
> To the extent I can tell you basically tested the same cable, copper construction with one 26-28 gauge conductor, that is why the majority of people say there isn't a big difference.
> 
> I say there isn't a big difference in the cables you tested. If it had been some straight wire encore II interconnects vs radio shack wires; then it may have been a different story.
> 
> As for the cables, I have never ran any of those. I of course have used the standard cables you get free with a cd player (I am guessing they are on par with Radio Shacks offerings.)
> 
> Which microphone cable did you use?
> 
> I don't see any offerings there that would stick out. They probably all use very similar construction and are all copper. You have to understand that cable/interconnect sales are driven my marketing, 95% of the cables out there are more or less the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Buy a boss deck from amazon (cheapest you can find) a/b it to whatever source you have in your car. Even Pioneer will be significantly better.
> 
> And the frequency response and or distortion will be measurably different.
> 
> In short yes, the boss will sound like ass.
> 
> 
> The source unit can have just as much variation as a set of speakers. It is where the signal starts... And I have run some BAD sources in my car and some GREAT ones. lol
> 
> I have NEVER seen a source unit have as much frequency response or distortion variations as even the best of the best speakers.
> 
> If you test a 1khz test tone then you will see a 1khz test tone, that is not a complete picture, nor does pink noise give you a complete picture of system performance or tonality.
> 
> I am not trying to be difficult, only saying what I have learned over time and through significant expense. If cables make no difference to you, I am 100% ok on that. But to say there is absolutely no audible difference in interconnects is inaccurate. That is my entire point.
> 
> But, if there is an audible difference, it can be proven with objective measurements, and I'm not talking about noise. I'm simply going off my experience and my dads (30 years as an electrical engineer designing power supplies for all kinds of things, some of which protect this country and go into space).
> 
> Your father is a great man and from what you write is an accomplished engineer.
> 
> Here is one problem and again I am not trying to be rude. Have either of you ever used a class A or class A biased amp and compared cables? (Not a/b class A). The audio market is a vast field of mediocrity, you need some good gear to really hear an appreciable difference between most interconnects. I would wager the weak link in most of the systems you have probably used are the source, the amps, and the drivers. This is the case is most home and car systems.
> 
> I would pose the same question to you. What hard data do you have to convince me they are all the same? lol
> 
> 
> RCA's are #3 in system importance not #1. Move the drivers to #1 and the source to #2 etc, or mix and match the first ones however you want. That does not change the discussion significantly.
> 
> Your still missing the environment itself. That will change frequency response, and all forms of distortion that you hear more than anything else. #2 is the speakers. They have more frequency response and distortion variation than any of the other electronic pieces. Then you can say amps and sources, since they're distortion and frequency response is ALWAYS better than the previous two items, unless they are damaged.
> 
> Again THD doesn't mean much <0.1% no chance your ears will hear it. Ok you like frequence response, consider this you measure a 4khz test tone and you see 4khs. Great. Now play a 4khz tone and a 4005 hz tone together can they be distinguished? That depends on the amplifier and sources resolution; which is seldom if ever discussed. Consider actual music and the frequency response arrangement completely breaks down with multiple overlapping tones. There is more to the equation then the metrics which are commonly used which is also why the specifications customers are given are more or less b.s.
> 
> Your DSP also can significantly alter the sound as it takes the waveform and converts it to ones and zeros, does digital manipulations, and then does another conversion back to analog. There is going to be loss/change there no matter how well you do it.
> 
> Absolutely, but the digital to analog conversion has be blind tested, and in good testing, people just can't tell when it is or isn't being done.
> 
> Take this as you will. Arc did a blind test of op amps in their ps8 processor: forums.arcaudio.com/Arc_Forums/showthread.php?636-PS8-OP-Amp-Blind-Challange-Results
> People heard differences between one component of a processor.
> 
> It would be very hard for me to accept that a group of people did not hear a difference between the MS8, H800, ps8, minidsp, etc. on some scanspeak illuminator drivers, class A amplification, and a dac/preamp like the DAC magic (not the best DAC out there but a good bang for your buck at $400.)
> 
> Which is a big part of the problem, audio in general is not standardized. By this I mean there is no absolute reference standard for everyone to do blind tests on. Everyone's ears are also different... There are so many variables in one system to another and with the majority of the equipment being mediocre; "blind testing" is going to be a crap shoot, because most systems out there aren't what they should be to begin with.


Those are my 100% honest impressions. No I am not trying to hate on HAT, but I brought it up because I was disappointed with that particular company.

I am also not trying to hate on a/b amps either. Some are better than others, the truly outstanding a/b amps (in car audio) are few and far between. The best amps and source units I have owned have been modified, because I am sorry to say most companies don't offer the best products they can; which is a darn shame.


----------



## The Performer

WestCo said:


> Those are my 100% honest impressions. No I am not trying to hate on HAT, but I brought it up because I was disappointed with that particular company.
> 
> I am also not trying to hate on a/b amps either. Some are better than others, the truly outstanding a/b amps (in car audio) are few and far between. The best amps and source units I have owned have been modified, because I am sorry to say most companies don't offer the best products they can; which is a darn shame.


Why would companies use high end components when they build products? It's apparent that everyone thinks they are smarter than the technicians and that no one can hear the difference. Just look at this thread... 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Because better components are more reliable. And there are suckers everywhere. 

Any difference you can hear, you can measure. So like I said, prove there's a difference with reliable measurement equipment. Your ears are not reliable.


----------



## WestCo

The Performer said:


> Why would companies use high end components when they build products? It's apparent that everyone thinks they are smarter than the technicians and that no one can hear the difference. Just look at this thread...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I can see that mentality, but I disagree with it.


----------



## WestCo

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Because better components are more reliable. And there are suckers everywhere.
> 
> Any difference you can hear, you can measure. So like I said, prove there's a difference with reliable measurement equipment. Your ears are not reliable.


Well if I had an extra grand or two I could probably get the equipment necessary.

In the meantime I trust my ears and the ears of my product testers. 

As I said I am going to make you a epic set of cables and ones that aren't as good. You can draw your own conclusion with your current gear.


----------



## 1fishman

I picked up some used Straight Wire Crescendo on ebay. It will be interesting to hear if these impress me as much as the Maestro did back in the day. 

Wish i still had my Tube system to test it with.


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## basher8621

Crescendo isn't cheap!!!


----------



## cajunner

do you know what snake oil smells like? tastes like? 


snake.


snake snake snake, snaking you, snaking you long time.. mmm.. love the snake, the snake is long, seven miles.

the west, is the best. 


baby.


----------



## seafish

WestCo said:


> As I said I am going to make you a epic set of cables and ones that aren't as good. You can draw your own conclusion with your current gear.


WestCo, hat is a MORE then fair offer and shows the commitment you have to your product. I am definitely looking forward to hearing back TWOSTUBBORN2FAIL's opinion on the difference in "sound quality" between the two sets...I think given his own recent comitmment to testing of products, he will be a fair judge.

That being said, if you wanted to, (or more accurately have the time to...lol) you could make the same offer to diyma member capatianobvious ..he might well be interested and able to do a blind comparison of the cables in front of his larger DIYMA listening audience taht are doing and BLIND a/b amp test here --

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-blind-tests-amplifiers-time-hear-myself.html

...now THAT would also be VERY interesting!!!
I'd even pitch in towards the cost of the cables.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

cajunner said:


> do you know what snake oil smells like? tastes like?
> 
> 
> snake.
> 
> 
> snake snake snake, snaking you, snaking you long time.. mmm.. love the snake, the snake is long, seven miles.
> 
> the west, is the best.
> 
> 
> baby.



*like*


----------



## I800C0LLECT

seafish said:


> WestCo, [t]hat is a MORE then fair offer and shows the commitment you have to your product. I am definitely looking forward to hearing back TWOSTUBBORN2FAIL's opinion on the difference in "sound quality" between the two sets...*I think given his own recent comitmment to testing of products, he will be a fair judge.*
> 
> That being said, if you wanted to, (or more accurately have the time to...lol) you could make the same offer to diyma member capatianobvious ..he might well be interested and able to do a blind comparison of the cables in front of his larger DIYMA listening audience taht are doing and BLIND a/b amp test here --
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-blind-tests-amplifiers-time-hear-myself.html
> 
> ...now THAT would also be VERY interesting!!!
> I'd even pitch in towards the cost of the cables.


What happens when he still disagrees? What direction will the debate lean? Is he "objective" if he agrees with you? What is he labeled if he disagrees with West?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I'll admit... I'm a little disappointed that these ideas are creeping into the forum. It seems like this is cyclical and it'll take an individual such as lycan or Andy step in and set everybody straight.

I'm wondering where the data is found to support their opinion? There's always been data to support the potential issue with noise entering a cable...but never any data to support that a properly constructed cable is any better/worse than another properly constructed cable.

hrmm. I'd like to strike "properly constructed" from the above as it may insinuate the use of unicorn tears or directional copper strands.


----------



## WestCo

I800C0LLECT said:


> What happens when he still disagrees? What direction will the debate lean? Is he "objective" if he agrees with you? What is he labeled if he disagrees with West?


I will strive to get captain a set for his A/B demo.

I am struggling to fill all the orders I currently have.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

WestCo said:


> I will strive to get captain a set for his A/B demo.
> 
> I am struggling to fill all the orders I currently have.



That's not what I'm worried about. The debate could easily turn into an issue of leverage since this will be construed as you "trying" to throw the under privileged a bone...of which if he does not accept your opinion he's immediately discredited.

This is win win for you.

There's nothing ever ever ever ever published that shows a cable making good contact between point A&B is any better/worse than another cable making good contact between point A&B.

Now we digress into a war of opinion. I'll take my seat now. I don't mind being labeled other than the 1%


----------



## cajunner

if an interconnect manufacturer doesn't want their product to completely tank their profit margins from returns, they will construct that cable with a bare minimum of material quality so that they can get paid and people continue to buy their products.

I don't care if that company IS based in China and they have marginal quality, even the most inexpensive cables that usually come with components, are good enough for most people.

now, I'm not saying that you can take the thinnest little cord that came with your 60 dollar tape deck from 1981, and compare it to something designed for the car audio environment and you're not going to be able to tell there's a difference in noise rejection, depending on shielding and construction details, but...

it's like the amplifier debates, in a way.

if the cables are meant for sale, they have to meet minimum standards or else they'll cost the company selling them, money.

same thing with these cheap, BOSS or Legacy or Power Acoustik amps, they have to meet a certain standard before they begin to become a liability.

so, anyone suggesting that there's a difference to be heard between amps, or interconnects, well no ****...


but is it really going to be the extra point or two in competition, based solely on some company's marketing spiel, or based on some techno-babble about windings and litz au jus, teflon and silver and whatnot?

maybe the exclusion process, or process of elimination, with it's lowest common denominator is more of a state of mind, and not necessarily the weakest link in the chain analogy's promised rewards.

if I had to run the low-rents for interconnects based on my ability to pay, I'd do it and not look back but like taking generic drugs, there's always that little nagging sentiment that it's not good enough. That's pride, &$%#ing with you, man... you fight through that ****, 


...


----------



## WestCo

I800C0LLECT said:


> That's not what I'm worried about. The debate could easily turn into an issue of leverage since this will be construed as you "trying" to throw the under privileged a bone...of which if he does not accept your opinion he's immediately discredited.
> 
> This is win win for you.
> 
> There's nothing ever ever ever ever published that shows a cable making good contact between point A&B is any better/worse than another cable making good contact between point A&B.
> 
> Now we digress into a war of opinion. I'll take my seat now. I don't mind being labeled other than the 1%


Anyone willing to take the "Pepsi Challenge" can get a loaner set of RCA's to try.

Anyone with the know-how or experience to actually test cables with instrumentation and provide everyone hard data (about sonic characteristics or noise) is also more than welcome to get a loaner set of cables to poke around with for a month. Even if the results mean's the difference is minor or to most users; or even negligible. Enlightening the community is important to me and learning more about "What Matters vs what doesn't" is helpful to me.

I have tried to demonstrate the noise levels of my cables under some very harsh conditions. At a bare minimum everyone should be able to agree that different shielding on wires will change the noise through the line.

I don't know what more people could asking of me. I really don't... currently I don't have the capitol to do such testing. If someone comes forward with such instrumentation, they can have some RCA's to compare.

Best I can do... lol


----------



## Nismo

Can anyone tell me here if they have conducted blind A/B tests with a 65+ dB noise floor? I drive a LOT, and that is the only time I listen to my car stereo. If there is a difference that can be measured of more than 2 dB ABOVE the average noise floor of a car driving down the highway (hence my 65 dB number), then I'll be the first in line to buy unicorn tears by the gallon.

This isn't to down play the quality of WestCo's cables, as they appear to b well made cables and are right up my alley for build and general noise rejection.

In case anyone cares, it's been 10 years since I heard a class A system, but I still remember what it had in it, and how it made me feel. I don't recall the guy's last name, but his name is Chris, and he was doing MECA SQ finals in 2003 in Louisville, KY. He had: Pioneer ODR deck and amps. I think 15x4 and 50x1 or some such thing. ID piezo horns with the matching ID mids, and an IDW15 in IB mount.

To this day, that's my standard for great sound. I just don't see a difference being audible between megabuck-unicorn-tears cables, and a reasonably priced, shielded mic cable.

Eric


----------



## WestCo

Nismo said:


> Can anyone tell me here if they have conducted blind A/B tests with a 65+ dB noise floor? I drive a LOT, and that is the only time I listen to my car stereo. If there is a difference that can be measured of more than 2 dB ABOVE the average noise floor of a car driving down the highway (hence my 65 dB number), then I'll be the first in line to buy unicorn tears by the gallon.
> 
> This isn't to down play the quality of WestCo's cables, as they appear to b well made cables and are right up my alley for build and general noise rejection.
> 
> In case anyone cares, it's been 10 years since I heard a class A system, but I still remember what it had in it, and how it made me feel. I don't recall the guy's last name, but his name is Chris, and he was doing MECA SQ finals in 2003 in Louisville, KY. He had: Pioneer ODR deck and amps. I think 15x4 and 50x1 or some such thing. ID piezo horns with the matching ID mids, and an IDW15 in IB mount.
> 
> To this day, that's my standard for great sound. I just don't see a difference being audible between megabuck-unicorn-tears cables, and a reasonably priced, shielded mic cable.
> 
> Eric


Did you catch what cables he was using?


----------



## cajunner

well, I've said enough but I'll say this too:

cookie cutter RCA's are not "destroyed" by any cables, regardless of price, construction details, etc.

unless they are obviously defective in their parts, audible thresholds will be maintained to the point that someone will not be able to consistently identify the cable using blind A/B testing to the extent that a clear margin is maintained, when 3 or more cables are in the test.

It's possible to find two disparate cables so unlike in their CSR, (haha, figure out that acronym) that their CMMR or GSR or whatever, means an audible distinction with one cable coming out with a lean character and another perhaps sharper, who really can tell about these things...



anyways, this debate is moot.


you want good cables, contact a good cable man.

WestCo appears to be a good cable man, so there is your sign?


----------



## Nismo

WestCo said:


> Did you catch what cables he was using?


I hear coat hangers are popular! 

On a serious note, I'm doing good to remember his first name, and that it was a 2000ish red Monte Carlo. I can't even tell you for sure about whether he had 2 amps with passive crossovers or 3 amps with active crossovers. I will say the install was gorgeous, with the amps under plex, but I don't recall any more than that.

Eric


----------



## WestCo

cajunner said:


> well, I've said enough but I'll say this too:
> 
> 
> you want good cables, contact a good cable man.
> 
> WestCo appears to be a good cable man, so there is your sign?


Thank you sir!

All the best


----------



## I800C0LLECT

WestCo said:


> Anyone willing to take the "Pepsi Challenge" can get a loaner set of RCA's to try.
> 
> Anyone with the know-how or experience to actually test cables with instrumentation and provide everyone hard data (about sonic characteristics or noise) is also more than welcome to get a loaner set of cables to poke around with for a month. Even if the results mean's the difference is minor or to most users; or even negligible. Enlightening the community is important to me and learning more about "What Matters vs what doesn't" is helpful to me.
> 
> *I have tried to demonstrate the noise levels of my cables under some very harsh conditions.* At a bare minimum everyone should be able to agree that different shielding on wires will change the noise through the line.
> 
> I don't know what more people could asking of me. I really don't... currently I don't have the capitol to do such testing. If someone comes forward with such instrumentation, they can have some RCA's to compare.
> 
> Best I can do... lol


I'm not arguing noise levels. I'm not arguing that you sell a bad product.

I'm also not arguing that anything off the shelf will do.

I'm debating the spill over that ALWAYS takes place..."this cable widened my stage!!...so focused!!...my bass is tighter!!...faster too vs. the old rca!!!"



The thought that there's such a difference in cables that it adds fidelity in any way shouldn't exist. The thought that a proper cable vs. another proper cable can actually take away from the sound...AND perceivable...it doesn't happen.


*
EDIT: I forgot to mention...that thing about adding signature to the sound?...I've already seen MANY comments about your cables making an audible difference. Really? (sigh). Data? Can you prove to me with an RTA or something else that I'll have to change the EQ in my system because my RCA's use a thicker gauge now?*

Why hasn't anybody EVER been able to tell the difference in a blind A/B? Merit or not I thought the following link was kinda funny...your thoughts on this West?...

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Just to show how far this cable thing can go...here's a guy giving a review for power cords for his home theatre...

here's some quotes on how he rated...

It's Done! Power Cord Shoot-Out-- 22 Power Cords Reviewed!



> Flexibility: 5
> Build quality: 8
> Tonality: 8
> Soundstaging/imaging: 7
> PRAT/dynamics/speed: 7
> Resolution/detail/transparency: 7
> Value: 7
> Overall Performance: 7 (up to 8.5 on the right component)



oh dear.




> Very hard to describe its sound, as t*his is a very neutral cord tonally.* For many people, this cord will do what they think a cord should do—don’t add any fancy commentary or special effects, just enhance the performance of my component, thank you very much. If you already like the tonality of your source/amp, but want the other benefits of a power cord, this is an excellent choice. *There is a *slight* brittle-ness to the treble, a bit of thin-ness up top and a tiny amount of fogging in the highs*, but this is an *incredibly* minor nit-pick. Outside of that, I can detect no particular colorations, and am at a bit of a loss to further describe its “sound”. It will simply make your component sound more like itself, and improve on what it already does well.



West's RCA's look nice but I hope it doesn't attract individuals that would write a review from the above link...


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Here's another blind test with Wine...I believe it's the same issue with cables...

...it's called Perception Bias.

Why We Can't Tell Good Wine From Bad


----------



## rton20s

I'm local to Toostubborn2fail. I can make myself available for a blind A/B once he gets the Westco cable. Hoptologist is also fairly close and we might be able to get him in on it as well.


----------



## BigRed

Make sure the a/b is within 2 seconds or less between cables


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jim, I would have my dad help build something that could switch instantaneously without signal interruption. Westco, pm me when you get a chance.


----------



## Hanatsu

Jeez... all these amps, cables, source unit "sonic signature" talk is making me dizzy.

Haven't read through the whole thread but speakers will always be the weakest point in any system, they are high distortion devices unlike the other components of your system. Wanna change how your system sounds? Get new speakers and/or a DSP.

My opinion is that most subjective analyzes are obsolete if you can measure, unfortunately there's still debates whether measurements can completely and accurately describe the full set of parameters that affect the audible performance. With speakers it's fairly easy to measure the performance, it's also fairly easy to measure low-signal devices like headunits and signal processors. With amps it's harder, they are high output devices that will be used with a significant load. To test how an amp performs at maximum output with reactive loads is less than easy for an audio hobbyist. So what about cables? What's the deal with them... HM.

An interconnect cable is used to transfer signals. What we refer to as a signal cable is used to transfer signals in the 10Hz-22kHz range. The signal is a fairly low voltage in the 50mV-8000mV range and a very low current barely worth mentioning. We are using the cable in a moderately harsh environment so some form of shielding is necessary unless you running a balanced setup, where twisted pair is what you want. The main source for noise come from overlayed AC ripple in the electrical system of your car, crap that shouldn't be there in the first place. Ok, this is easy to test if you use an o-scope - just measure the p-p voltage and compare the readings between cables. Nothing to argue about there.

So now to the "is there an audible difference between my cables" question. Despite some of the audiophile crap claims, there are not really much to these signal cables. We have R-L-C (resistance - inductance - capacitance) and noise reduction to worry about. The frequency range these signal cables are used for and the short lengths of cable required in a car makes it fairly easy to transfer a signal without introducing distortion of any concern. The need for litz cable is born from the BS that the so called "skin-effect" matters for audio frequencies, which is not the case. The distance of the wires to eachother, the insulation, thickness of the wire and length will cause the R-L-C ratio to change. The general consensus is that a low capacitance, low resistance signal cable is desired, cable manufacturers commonly spec the capacitance and resistance/length. A good cable should be in the range of 50-120pF/m (~3ft). Most competently built cable will be perfectly able to transfer the audio frequency range with precision enough so it'll be hard to even measure differences with a scope or FFT analyzer. I said "most" because some audiophile grade cables actually make cables to distort the sound on purpose by making the cable into a filter (the cable is a kind of filter (bandpass) but the cutoff frequencies lies normally outside the audible range). Audiophile cables often play with the inductance to bring the cutoff into the highest octave of the audible range.

Summary, just get a cable that's adequately shielded if you use it in an unbalanced system. The terminals are pretty important too, bad contact there or bad solder points in the plug might cause audible degradation. Gold plated terminals are pretty common since gold isn't easily oxidized and provide a protective surface. 

Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth

Google Translate

http://www.apiguide.net/04actu/04musik/AES-cableInteractions.pdf

Matrix-Hifi: Red Zone --> The "truth" about different speakers cables



> As a consequence of our article, a French Hi-Fi speaker company has send us a 30 page technical summary of the tests made on a laboratory with all the cables available in the market (tests that we had already done by our own), where it is proven that there is no type of cable that can modify the amplifier or speaker’s characteristics. In this report we emphasize that even if very long connections are made (20-30 meters) with very thin wires, the maximum (signal) you can obtain is only a tiny decrease of the acoustic power, that can be easily compensated by moving 1 mm the volume control of the source.


ABX Double Blind Tests: Interconnects and Wires

Sound System Interconnection

And perhaps this should be mentioned too, I find it having more relevance than my long rant above;

NwAvGuy: What We Hear


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Hanatsu said:


> Jeez... all these amps, cables, source unit "sonic signature" talk is making me dizzy.
> 
> Haven't read through the whole thread but speakers will always be the weakest point in any system, they are high distortion devices unlike the other components of your system. Wanna change how your system sounds? Get new speakers and/or a DSP.
> 
> My opinion is that most subjective analyzes are obsolete if you can measure, unfortunately there's still debates whether measurements can completely and accurately describe the full set of parameters that affect the audible performance. With speakers it's fairly easy to measure the performance, it's also fairly easy to measure low-signal devices like headunits and signal processors. With amps it's harder, they are high output devices that will be used with a significant load. To test how an amp performs at maximum output with reactive loads is less than easy for an audio hobbyist. So what about cables? What's the deal with them... HM.
> 
> An interconnect cable is used to transfer signals. What we refer to as a signal cable is used to transfer signals in the 10Hz-22kHz range. The signal is a fairly low voltage in the 50mV-8000mV range and a very low current barely worth mentioning. We are using the cable in a moderately harsh environment so some form of shielding is necessary unless you running a balanced setup, where twisted pair is what you want. The main source for noise come from overlayed AC ripple in the electrical system of your car, crap that shouldn't be there in the first place. Ok, this is easy to test if you use an o-scope - just measure the p-p voltage and compare the readings between cables. Nothing to argue about there.
> 
> So now to the "is there an audible difference between my cables" question. Despite some of the audiophile crap claims, there are not really much to these signal cables. We have R-L-C (resistance - inductance - capacitance) and noise reduction to worry about. The frequency range these signal cables are used for and the short lengths of cable required in a car makes it fairly easy to transfer a signal without introducing distortion of any concern. The need for litz cable is born from the BS that the so called "skin-effect" matters for audio frequencies, which is not the case. The distance of the wires to eachother, the insulation, thickness of the wire and length will cause the R-L-C ratio to change. The general consensus is that a low capacitance, low resistance signal cable is desired, cable manufacturers commonly spec the capacitance and resistance/length. A good cable should be in the range of 50-120pF/m (~3ft). Most competently built cable will be perfectly able to transfer the audio frequency range with precision enough so it'll be hard to even measure differences with a scope or FFT analyzer. I said "most" because some audiophile grade cables actually make cables to distort the sound on purpose by making the cable into a filter (the cable is a kind of filter (bandpass) but the cutoff frequencies lies normally outside the audible range). Audiophile cables often play with the inductance to bring the cutoff into the highest octave of the audible range.
> 
> Summary, just get a cable that's adequately shielded if you use it in an unbalanced system. The terminals are pretty important too, bad contact there or bad solder points in the plug might cause audible degradation. Gold plated terminals are pretty common since gold isn't easily oxidized and provide a protective surface.
> 
> Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth
> 
> Google Translate
> 
> http://www.apiguide.net/04actu/04musik/AES-cableInteractions.pdf
> 
> Matrix-Hifi: Red Zone --> The "truth" about different speakers cables
> 
> 
> troof.
> ABX Double Blind Tests: Interconnects and Wires
> 
> Sound System Interconnection
> 
> And perhaps this should be mentioned too, I find it having more relevance than my long rant above;
> 
> NwAvGuy: What We Hear



troof.

Thanks for adding to the conversation :2thumbsup:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For the record, I agree. Which is why if we do a comparison, I will build a box to switch signals instantaneously, and have people listen without telling them that ill be switching cables. I will then after that test, ask if they noticed anything during listening, and explain what was going on. After that, ill give them the opportunity to listen again, this time being fully aware, and see what their thoughts are. It will all be filmed, so everyone will know there is no funny stuff going on.

Like I said, I have nothing against westco, and honestly wouldn't hesitate to check out his cables for purchase, provided his cables can do something my custom ones cant (more compact, look nicer, etc), but I don't believe for a second there is a sonic difference in cables outside of what can be measured. There's just no science or scientifically performed listening tests that have proven that they do.


----------



## Hanatsu

I just used diffrrent outputs on my P99rs with the crossovers in bypass to different rca input on my home ( CLASS A ;D ) amplifier. I had friend connect the cables to different inputs at random. Then I simply switched inputs with the remote and that way I blind tested without fancy equipment 

I didn't hear any differences btw. 5m cables (15ft). Tested Audison ST, Audioquest green...? - van den Hul..? vs my DYI cable.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## cajunner

after a long "learning" session about cables, because I was interested in extending my router/adapter options, I found out that audio signals are sufficiently slow that most any interconnect will suffice.

with the two-way radio of wifi, the 2.4 gigahertz, is catching the border on weirdness, you start getting into leakage, and terminal parts being "precision" enough to carry the signal to and from antennas.

then you go 5.8 gigahertz, things get more hairy, and pretty soon you're into laboratory grade cabling and near custom termination parts.

drop it down all the way to Citizen's Band, or CB radio frequencies and things come back a bit, but you still need better than a plain F-connector, there's a limit to what quality of cable will do for your standing wave ratios....


but audio? Not that hard.


----------



## CK1991

I have RGB cables (terminated in RCAs on each end) ran in my car. As my friend (who is way more obsessive about SQ than I am) said....if they can handle 60+mhz, they'll handle car audio just fine.


----------



## 1fishman

basher8621 said:


> Crescendo isn't cheap!!!


That's so true, I guess this 8 meter pair would have cost over $6000 new. Waaay more than i would ever spend at my income level.
Because they were so long folks didn't bid much and i got them for less than ten cents on the dollar.

I figure i can make three 1 meter pair to sell back on Ebay, and have two 8' pair to play with in my van. The shorter lengths seem to sell good, so with any luck I might not be out too much. I hope!


----------



## cajunner

1fishman said:


> That's so true, I guess this 8 meter pair would have cost over $6000 new. Waaay more than i would ever spend at my income level.
> Because they were so long folks didn't bid much and i got them for less than ten cents on the dollar.
> 
> I figure i can make three 1 meter pair to sell back on Ebay, and have two 8' pair to play with in my van. The shorter lengths seem to sell good, so with any luck I might not be out too much. I hope!


I'd like to see $6K cables.

not in any sense of being able to drool over them or whatever, but because if I stumble on some at a yard sale or thrifty, I'd know what they look like.


----------



## 1fishman

cajunner said:


> I'd like to see $6K cables.
> 
> not in any sense of being able to drool over them or whatever, but because if I stumble on some at a yard sale or thrifty, I'd know what they look like.


Yeah i no what you mean. I'm all about flipping something to make a buck if you can. 

I found them cheaper on amazon, $700 for 1 meter oppose to $900 so maybe not quit $6k. Amazon.com : Straightwire Crescendo II 1.0 Meter Audio Cable Pair : Rca Audio Cables : Electronics


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## spyders03

Why is everyone coming down on WestCo? His cables are not expensive by any means. I understand the whole argument that cables make a negligible difference, but he is not charging $200/ft for them, not even $5/ft. They look like decently made cables, but his prices are not outrageous in any sense of the word.


----------



## JVD240

spyders03 said:


> Why is everyone coming down on WestCo? His cables are not expensive by any means. I understand the whole argument that cables make a negligible difference, but he is not charging $200/ft for them, not even $5/ft. They look like decently made cables, but his prices are not outrageous in any sense of the word.


I don't think anyone was coming down on WestCo's cables at all. I disagree with some of his opinions but his cables are pretty much exactly what I make for my own systems. High quality cable that's easy to work with terminated with decent connectors. Can't go wrong!

The idea that people can hear the difference between different cables is what came into question initially.


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## spyders03

That makes sense. Having been in process of making our own cables for our home audio company, a cable should do nothing more than reproduce signal coming in and it should be the same on the outgoing end. The main problem with cables is the noise floor, and the ability to reject noise when in a harsh environment. If it can do that, it is a decent cable.


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## cajunner

well, it could be CONSTRUED that I was coming down on WestCo, but really it's just the internets.

people have a tendency to read into stuff, or just type, type... type.


the only sticking point I find with WestCo is that he basically says, "my cables destroy cookie-cutter RCA's" and well, that's not really factual.

in a one-on-one, cookie cutter RCA's may be able to wrestle those big 4 conductor Canare's down to the mat, and twist around them like cobra spaghetti.


cobra spaghetti: new sexy?

nah..


it's just the internets.


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## Hanatsu

cajunner said:


> ...he basically says, "my cables destroy cookie-cutter RCA's"


Actually had to look that sentence up. Never heard that expression before...

"Cookie-cutter" - sounds funny... lol.


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## WestCo

cajunner said:


> well, it could be CONSTRUED that I was coming down on WestCo, but really it's just the internets.
> 
> people have a tendency to read into stuff, or just type, type... type.
> 
> 
> the only sticking point I find with WestCo is that he basically says, "my cables destroy cookie-cutter RCA's" and well, that's not really factual.
> 
> in a one-on-one, cookie cutter RCA's may be able to wrestle those big 4 conductor Canare's down to the mat, and twist around them like cobra spaghetti.
> 
> 
> cobra spaghetti: new sexy?
> 
> nah..
> 
> 
> it's just the internets.


Go and test any RCA's you can buy for under 70$ and compare them to mine.

Find me one's that measure lower resistance and have equal or better noise rejection properties and I will buy you a beer.

I stand by that statement about the RCA's you get from China, because I have dissected them, they are laughably bad overall. 

Put them head to head and it will be the Bronco's vs the Seahawks; so I believe my statement is accurate. No complaints so far either.


----------



## BigRed

My $2.49 cent RCAs will perform as well as any out there there is no audible difference I know that will not change anybody's mind that is a believer in high dollar cables. . No disrespect westco. Your cables look well built and beefy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WestCo

To each their own.


----------



## Ultimateherts

WestCo said:


> Go and test any RCA's you can buy for under 70$ and compare them to mine.
> 
> Find me one's that measure lower resistance and have equal or better noise rejection properties and I will buy you a beer.
> 
> I stand by that statement about the RCA's you get from China, because I have dissected them, they are laughably bad overall.
> 
> Put them head to head and it will be the Bronco's vs the Seahawks; so I believe my statement is accurate. No complaints so far either.


As coming from someone who just started making his own RCA's I can tell you that while to most it seems like a waste, the satisfaction I got from making my own was well worth the investment.The build quality of the higher end cable companies it just beautiful. It's the same argument people make about why we do the installs ourselves. To the average person having a shop do the install is more than worth to them. You also have to realize we are not the average audio people. Even if it's .0000000001 that is gained from making RCA's ourselves most would agree it is worth it because most of us are that anal!!!


----------



## cajunner

shipping on that beer is prohibitive, I'll just let you take the W. You know, like Peyton did for the 'hawks, it's obvious he's all about letting first time SB wins happen for franchises.

He's a giver, that Manning boy.



anyways, I'd say that you've got a great product, some nice build pics, and customer service is spot on.

if I thought it was important to upgrade RCA's I definitely would keep the WestCo product in the running.

Heck, you've got upgrade service, right? What you think about this:

Say I have some shorty jacks, and the Rean don't fit my application. I send you the shorty jacks and you make up cables to specified length, using my ends, and send the Rean jacks unsoldered, along.

same price as before, except say... a 2 dollar surcharge for prepping the shorty ends?

that would be cool, I bet some people want the good shielding but need clearance too...


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## spyders03

$70 for what length?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## WestCo

spyders03 said:


> $70 for what length?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


When my cables go "on sale" online from 3rd party vendors.

The 17' cables will be sold from 62$-75$ depending on the vendor and how they do shipping. 

So ya increase the comparison budget to 75$

I know the stinger 8000's (MSRP) are in that price range but they can be found for around 40$ new. There is a case where I would say get some 3$ wonders and save the money; 3$ cables vs stinger isn't going to be a huge difference. Maybe the shielding on the stingers are slightly above average. But they have a 26-27 gauge conductor so you are basically paying for the pretty packaging there.


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## WestCo

Custom lengths and other customizations like Techflex can go through me.


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## cajunner

WestCo said:


> When my cables go "on sale" online from 3rd party vendors.
> 
> The 17' cables will be sold from 62$-75$ depending on the vendor and how they do shipping.
> 
> So ya increase the comparison budget to 75$
> 
> I know the stinger 8000's (MSRP) are in that price range but they can be found for around 40$ new. There is a case where I would say get some 3$ wonders and save the money; 3$ cables vs stinger isn't going to be a huge difference. Maybe the shielding on the stingers are slightly above average. But they have a 26-27 gauge conductor so you are basically paying for the pretty packaging there.


I have some old Stinger "Queen" sets, from back in the day.

they were purple, but they're so old they turned brown, haha...

still good, too.


well, except that they put the little white ring, and red ring, on opposite ends of the same cable cord.

how's that for quality control, lol..


----------



## WestCo

cajunner said:


> I have some old Stinger "Queen" sets, from back in the day.
> 
> they were purple, but they're so old they turned brown, haha...
> 
> still good, too.
> 
> 
> well, except that they put the little white ring, and red ring, on opposite ends of the same cable cord.
> 
> how's that for quality control, lol..


Those might be very nice. No clue on the older stingers. The 8000's are a 100% rip off for what you get.


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## Hanatsu

Hm I actually got curious to investigate the noise reduction in a few interconnect cables I got in the garage. I have a few Audison BT/ST some Audioquest cable, a Nordost a van den hul, a few belden cables, a sommercable, a rg75, some stinger, dls and some random crap. I can measure them with a scope and see how they perform... later this week, that is.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## WestCo

Hanatsu said:


> Hm I actually got curious to investigate the noise reduction in a few interconnect cables I got in the garage. I have a few Audison BT/ST some Audioquest cable, a Nordost a van den hul, a few belden cables, a sommercable, a rg75, some stinger, dls and some random crap. I can measure them with a scope and see how they perform... later this week, that is.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


O-scope, extension core, an amplifier, and something that draws a ton of current. That's all you need to do basic noise tests on cables.

Wrap the RCA around the extension cord, plug one end of the RCA into a source unit and the amplifier, turn it on (no music playing). Then power up the current drawing device (power tool, space heater, etc.); and connect the oscope to the speaker outputs on the amp (with the gains at 3/4) You'll see noise around 60hz. Warp all the RCA's the same way and you'll see different noise levels.


----------



## seafish

Hanatsu said:


> Hm I actually got curious to investigate the noise reduction in a few interconnect cables I got in the garage. I have a few Audison BT/ST some Audioquest cable, a Nordost a van den hul, a few belden cables, a sommercable, a rg75, some stinger, dls and some random crap. I can measure them with a scope and see how they perform... later this week, that is.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


This thread just keeps getting BETTER!!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

WestCo said:


> O-scope, extension core, and something that draws a ton of current. That's all you need to do basic noise tests on cables.
> 
> Wrap the RCA around the extension cord, plug one end of the RCA into a source unit, turn it on (no music playing). Then power up the current drawing device (power tool, space heater, etc.). You'll see noise around 60hz. Warp all the RCA's the same way and you'll see different noise levels.


Coiling the power cable should create a stronger magnetic field too.

Honestly, I'm thinking about buying your cables if I decide I need them just to support a diy'er. I'm not down on your product at all. I think everybody in this site is proud to have a member like you west. I'm just anal about odd ball things like everybody here. I'll be sure to point others your way too.

Just don't start bragging about cords adding Esq or selling power conditioners


----------



## WestCo

I800C0LLECT said:


> Coiling the power cable should create a stronger magnetic field too.
> 
> Honestly, I'm thinking about buying your cables if I decide I need them just to support a diy'er. I'm not down on your product at all. I think everybody in this site is proud to have a member like you west. I'm just anal about odd ball things like everybody here. I'll be sure to point others your way too.


Thank you sir!
Very kind of you to say. 

I hadn't considered coiling the cable  And being meticulous and methodical is not a crime.

Also I forgot to mention to hook the RCA cable into an amplifier and use the oscope on the speaker outputs. Gets you a much stronger signal.

You can even connect the amp to speakers and hear the buzzing from the interference, especially if the RCA's are sub par.


----------



## Alrojoca

I have been a fan of Canare cables, speaker, microphone, guitar, those cables are used in studios and concerts and should work well at home and in a car. You do not see Radio Shack cables used in concerts or studio recordings.


So, they had the Stinger HPm1,2 and 3. Now they have the 4000, 6000 and 8000.

This means the HPM3 is the same as the 8000 just an older version?

What about making cables out of CAT5-6? I heard that worked well too on some thread here somewhere


----------



## WestCo

Alrojoca said:


> I have been a fan of Canare cables, speaker, microphone, guitar, those cables are used in studios and concerts and should work well at home and in a car. You do not see Radio Shack cables used in concerts or studio recordings.
> 
> 
> So, they had the Stinger HPm1,2 and 3. Now they have the 4000, 6000 and 8000.
> 
> This means the HPM3 is the same as the 8000 just an older version?
> 
> What about making cables out of CAT5-6? I heard that worked well too on some thread here somewhere


Insufficient shielding for car applications.
If you encased the cat 5 wire in braided copper and attached that to a ground it might be ok.


----------



## Alrojoca

how does streetwires gets away with just 2 single tinny conductors twisted pair, and no shields. You can see the clear tube they are housed in. No shield and they work even the $80.00 just by having fancy connectors appear to be the same thing just charging for the material and connector style.


----------



## WestCo

Alrojoca said:


> how does streetwires gets away with just 2 single tinny conductors twisted pair, and no shields. You can see the clear tube they are housed in. No shield and they work even the $80.00 just by having fancy connectors appear to be the same thing just charging for the material and connector style.


Those are for differential balanced systems. They will work on any amp, but will be more susceptible to noise. I am sure they use good building materials, but they aren't designed for most amps. The same with these:

SMD RCA-DI (Twisted Pair)


----------



## jtaudioacc

Alrojoca said:


> What about making cables out of CAT5-6? I heard that worked well too on some thread here somewhere


i've done a crap load of cat 5 cables used for the arc audio se amps on their input. never an ounce of noise with those amps. really inexpensive.


----------



## WestCo

jtaudioacc said:


> i've done a crap load of cat 5 cables used for the arc audio se amps on their input. never an ounce of noise with those amps. really inexpensive.


I have some of those cables, not sure if you made them. Going RCA to ballanced input. Shorter runs are ok, not sure if I would run them across the entire vehicle. I have tested them at home and they work well.

Worth a shot though if it's noise free.


----------



## jtaudioacc

WestCo said:


> I have some of those cables, not sure if you made them. Going RCA to ballanced input. Shorter runs are ok, not sure if I would run them across the entire vehicle. I have tested them at home and they work well.
> 
> Worth a shot though if it's noise free.


long runs in multiple vehicles, custom made. not one issue. like my friend who's head of engineering at clear channel says, the music doesn't know how expensive the wire it's going thru. lol


----------



## spyders03

I have always said that copper doesn't know who's name is stamped on the outside of the cable. However, with that said, there is definitely something to be said about a nice set of cables. Just like an amplifier, a cables job is to produce signal from side A to side B, with no more or less information that was originally present. With that said, any half way decent home audio receiver does a decent job of amplification, doesn't mean I would put it on a car. A $5 set of RCAs might work fine for some people, but that doesn't mean they are going to hold up well in a vehicle environment or reject noise if they are routed near a distribution block or another high power source. 

A cable (or amplifier) should not introduce any information to a signal, but it should also not convey any less information. As cable can not give you anything that was not there to begin with, bit it can help lower your noise floor, which might bring out small details that were originally there, but hidden. There's lots of things that a nice set of cables can help with, but they can't do anything more than transmit the original signal, and hopefully they don't hide or lose any of that information in the process by introducing noise or anything else.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## Hanatsu

WestCo said:


> O-scope, extension core, an amplifier, and something that draws a ton of current. That's all you need to do basic noise tests on cables.
> 
> Wrap the RCA around the extension cord, plug one end of the RCA into a source unit and the amplifier, turn it on (no music playing). Then power up the current drawing device (power tool, space heater, etc.); and connect the oscope to the speaker outputs on the amp (with the gains at 3/4) You'll see noise around 60hz. Warp all the RCA's the same way and you'll see different noise levels.


We got 50Hz net frequency here 

But yeah, I'll try something like that. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## 1996blackmax

I recently bought some new old stock Esoteric Audio A5 RCA's. I spent $10 & $12 for them. Pretty happy with them, especially for the price.


----------



## WestCo

seafish said:


> WestCo, hat is a MORE then fair offer and shows the commitment you have to your product. I am definitely looking forward to hearing back TWOSTUBBORN2FAIL's opinion on the difference in "sound quality" between the two sets...I think given his own recent comitmment to testing of products, he will be a fair judge.
> 
> That being said, if you wanted to, (or more accurately have the time to...lol) you could make the same offer to diyma member capatianobvious ..he might well be interested and able to do a blind comparison of the cables in front of his larger DIYMA listening audience taht are doing and BLIND a/b amp test here --
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-blind-tests-amplifiers-time-hear-myself.html
> 
> ...now THAT would also be VERY interesting!!!
> I'd even pitch in towards the cost of the cables.


I sent him some cables to A/B vs a stinger 8000 of the same length. Not sure if I posted that here or not.


----------



## g7kobayashi

These are the best RCA cables I've owned so far.
Audiotechnica 50th Anniversary model, AT-RX50A.
I compared them with the LUXMAN JPX-10000
and they're far beyond the LUXMAN in every section.
Even better than the Taralabs RSC VECTOR-1!


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## I800C0LLECT

What makes them better g7?


----------



## g7kobayashi

I800C0LLECT said:


> What makes them better g7?


You can see their constructions from the picture.
I believe it's most because of the material and shielding.
They even use independent cable for signal positive and negative.
And you know the Japs always keep the best in their country.
Besides, how many audio companies are 50 years old or more?

Check the actual picture. They're HUGE!


----------



## cleansoundz

WestCo said:


> It's an audio system. Individual components can be compared, but in the end it's how everything works together.
> 
> I have heard some competitors say that they have been able to tune their systems (to an extent) using different brand RCA's.
> 
> I would also like to highlight that high cost did not always equal high performance. Research the cables you get before you buy. There are some REALLy crappy cables out there selling for 70$ a set.
> 
> For me:
> Do interconnects matter?
> Yes; from personal experience and viewing his results.
> In certain situations the extra money is well spent.
> In 97% of the systems being installed in a car buying some vampire wires with nice shielding or some other quality mid grade set will be absolutely fine. Spending over 30$ a set probably isn't worth it.
> 
> Most people switch RCA's only if there is a problem with their current set, noise for example. A car is a terrible environment for audio to start with, so shielding/grounding does matter moreso than in a home.
> 
> Bottom line is the source, drivers, and yes amplifiers play a larger role in net system performance than RCA's do.
> 
> If your system starts to cost 2,000-3,000 dollars, then you may want to consider dropping some money on some straightwire encore ii's or the m1000 monster cables (personally I would go with the straightwires).
> 
> I have not had issues with having rca's close to a + power wire; however rapping them around ground wires has caused noise issues for me. I wouldn't wrap them around either of them.


I agree with this statement.


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## sensarmy

cleansoundz said:


> I agree with this statement.


x2


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## anson cao

I changed my speaker cable from kimble 8TC to nirvana SX, wow it's day and night different


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## captainobvious

anson cao said:


> I changed my speaker cable from kimble 8TC to nirvana SX, wow it's day and night different


Faulty cable/connection? Different gauge wire (impedance)? Different routing? Those are things that would cause it to be different. Other than that...


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## Victor_inox

captainobvious said:


> Faulty cable/connection? Different gauge wire (impedance)? Different routing? Those are things that would cause it to be different. Other than that...


People just need to believe in something they just been cheated into.


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## pablo94sc

I honestly believe a good set of interconnects can improve the overall quality of the sound reproduced, but quality doesn't have to mean expensive. My home interconnects are CAT-5E twisted pair soldered (silver solder) to cheap RCA ends from Radio Shack. No difference in sound quality from the $$$ Kimber Kables they were based on. 

They look kinda like this - Kimber Kable - PBJ


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## Mitsu1grn

All I'm going to say is " Clarity Cable". Go do research on the company.


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## porscheman

because they are expensive?


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## Hillbilly SQ

I'll run high dollar cables if they're given to me. Have a high dollar Stinger Expert 4ch rca going from behind the dash in my truck to under the drivers seat that isn't even hooked to anything that I got for less than $20 shipped to my door off egay. I left it installed just in case I decide to switch back to an aftermarket unit and my dsp's are already installed where the cable comes out under the drivers seat. I'm using a two of the supplied mini dsp cables that seem to be decent and a rat shack cable. No induced noise and nothing hinting that they're degrading the sound. Using my stock headunit as the source I see no reason to run high dollar cables when the signal is coming out of cheap 18g speakerwire between the headunit and doors, then between the doors and Navone LOC.


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## Hillbilly SQ

Something I will comment on about interconnects making a difference is I used to run a 6ch linedriver and when I pulled it out I used some cheap ratshack couplers to connect the short rca's where the linedriver was between the amps and headunit. I used the linedriver to better drive the inputs of the infamous PG Xenon amps I was running at the time but more for channel attenuation with the Alpine 9833. When I decided to put a continuous run of cable in there WITHOUT couplers the Stinger Expert series 4ch was too good of a deal to pass up. I had to completely redo my time alignment with the new cable and no idea why. Maybe the couplers were causing a phase shift? For whatever reason my system sounded better after getting things lined back out.


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## CK1991

I have a couple high end monster cables (one is really nice hdmi cable). I have not heard a difference between them and cheaper cables.


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## pablo94sc

Mitsu1grn said:


> All I'm going to say is " Clarity Cable". Go do research on the company.


All I had to read was nano-coating and see there site was hosted by Yahoo and I closed the page. :laugh:


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## basher8621

So the web host tells you it is a bad cable or a bad company?


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## Airforceyooper

Check out the stinger 9000 series cables. Hella nice.


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## CK1991

basher8621 said:


> So the web host tells you it is a bad cable or a bad company?


I'm sure the "nanocoatimg" had something to do with it too.


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## basher8621

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with it?


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## mercury02

Well this is always the great question. Before I was spend the money on RCAs but that all changed in 2004 I was selling Hugfen cable my dealer in FL bought a bunch of 99 cent 16foot cables. Spring break was coming up in FL his rca (expensive ones never showed up)
he is competing IASCA PRO so the 99cent cables go in and we were talking before show started he was not happy because his rca never showed up but he wound up winning the show and was not even close he won by land slide. 
2nd time top installer out of Russia had Mini in DLS booth was set up too look like submarine. Dimitri did a 6 month study on RCAs from cheapest to top of line he wound up IASCA champ Europe & Emma champ on $6 RCAs made in Russia.
it all comes down to soldering of wire and he did say the jacket sleeve also made difference and blue was best color for stopping interference between cables.
so if you know soldering is good and cable feels half way good you should be able get away cheap.


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## pablo94sc

basher8621 said:


> So the web host tells you it is a bad cable or a bad company?


If you are selling a $1400 cable, you can easily afford to spend a bit of money to have your site hosted elsewhere. Yahoo hosting should be a HUGE red flag that the company is ripping you off. Same with buzz words, links to random blogger reviews, etc. Basically, I could have a buddy make a webpage that looks like that and get 3-4 glowing blogger reviews for around $300 ($50 a pop for reviews, $100 for the webpage). Doesn't mean my product is worth anything - just means I'll get a bunch of suckers to spend $1400 on a pair of interconnects that cost me maybe $10 to make.


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## Victor_inox

"blue was best color for stopping interference between cables."

I always thought black is better for that. :laugh:


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## Alrojoca

Gray sneak look like cable with blue connectors also reject noise better

These are directional grounded RCA'a cheap and good cables with blue aluminum connectors 



http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...inger-shi2320-hpm-3-20-ft-2chrca-icables.html


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## Lanson

pablo94sc said:


> If you are selling a $1400 cable, you can easily afford to spend a bit of money to have your site hosted elsewhere. Yahoo hosting should be a HUGE red flag that the company is ripping you off. Same with buzz words, links to random blogger reviews, etc. Basically, I could have a buddy make a webpage that looks like that and get 3-4 glowing blogger reviews for around $300 ($50 a pop for reviews, $100 for the webpage). Doesn't mean my product is worth anything - just means I'll get a bunch of suckers to spend $1400 on a pair of interconnects that cost me maybe $10 to make.


Sounds like you figured out Critical Mass's marketing logic, LOL.


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## n2audio

I remember reading a thread a few years back from a guy putting on/participating in an audio conference -- I forget the specifics.

He set up a double blind listening demo with identical (high quality) components besides signal cable.
For one of the setups the signal was transferred using a coat hanger.
The other was some voodoo techo-special ~$1000 cable.
He let the attendees listen as they pleased and offer short reviews.

The reviews showed no clear tendencies for one system sounding better or worse than the other. There were approximately as many glowing reviews on the coat hanger signal cable as there was the techo-special.

If a high dollar cable makes you FEEL better that is wonderful, but ALL it does is make you FEEL better.


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## Lanson

n2audio said:


> I remember reading a thread a few years back from a guy putting on/participating in an audio conference -- I forget the specifics.
> 
> He set up a double blind listening demo with identical (high quality) components besides signal cable.
> For one of the setups the signal was transferred using a coat hanger.
> The other was some voodoo techo-special ~$1000 cable.
> He let the attendees listen as they pleased and offer short reviews.
> 
> The reviews showed no clear tendencies for one system sounding better or worse than the other. There were approximately as many glowing reviews on the coat hanger signal cable as there was the techo-special.
> 
> If a high dollar cable makes you FEEL better that is wonderful, but ALL it does is make you FEEL better.



Here ya go

Do Coat Hangers Sound As Good Monster Cables?


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## Hillbilly SQ

In my opinion when purchasing cables only a few things should matter.

Noise rejection, durability over time (will the cable outlast the vehicle), and quality of ends used (snug fit is a must). You can get this with a cable that retails for less than $20. I'll run a high dollar cable if it's practically given to me, but have no problem running a really cheap cable as long as it gets the job done. I used to throw away cables that come with audio gear but not anymore. They're great to have around even if it's just for a spare. They're also great at keeping me from spending money when I don't have to.


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## Hanatsu

I never uploaded the pics but I did a noise rejection test. Two different cables laying around the power cable of a class D amp IIRC. The less noisy cable was one I made myself from some $1/ft microphone cable, the other one was an Audison BT or ST cable... not much noise but still ^


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## AtlasMick

Does anyone on the forum make some decent custom length RCA with good shielding?


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## fcarpio

Long time ago I used to work at a high end audio store in Florida called "Sound Advice". There we conducted an RCA blind test on a Krell system (CD player, preamp and amp) attached to a set of B&W 801's. We tested 5 cables, expensive RCAs, Expensive XLRs, mid range RCAs, cheaper RCAs and ultra cheap RCA's. We were only able to tell the difference between the ultra cheap RCAs and the rest. The ultra cheap RCAs lost the sparkle, all others sounded very good with NO audible difference.

I don't remember what the ultra cheap cables were, but they did look somewhat nice and were thicker than the rest of the cables except the very expensive stuff.

We did similar tests with speaker wire and most of us ended up running our high end systems at home with solid core (coated) copper wire from Home Depot. 

So yeah, when I shop for cables I mostly look for durability and something that has a nice grip so they stay put.


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## upgrayedd

I think for a lot of us in car audio, the durability of the plugs is a big factor. When you switch equipment out often, you dont need a crappy plug wearing out. In my experience you can also go too far in the other way. Some of the ones that lock on like Chinese finger cuffs have damaged the plugs on equipment before when removing.


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## lostthumb

AtlasMick said:


> Does anyone on the forum make some decent custom length RCA with good shielding?


Look up WestCo. He makes them and sells them here.


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## lostthumb

These are nice too if 5 meters is enough.

Esoteric Audio USA A7 5M RCA Audio Cable 24K Gold Plated Contacts 16 4ft 5M | eBay


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## 14642

Fiction.


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## WestCo

AtlasMick said:


> Does anyone on the forum make some decent custom length RCA with good shielding?


At your service!

Let me know how I can help. 

(regular RCA, y-cables, 3.5mm cables, etc.)

If you get noise it won't be through my cables.


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## WestCo

lostthumb said:


> Look up WestCo. He makes them and sells them here.


Thank you for the referral!


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## abilliott

tag for later, i'll need a good set of RCA's


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