# Why don't you compete?



## Lake Country Customs Mike (Dec 30, 2007)

*If the mods could sticky this for 60 days or so I would appreciate it.* 

Some others and myself are trying to figure out some new classes for the beginner/ average consumer to help bring car audio competition back to it's former glory. We are trying to figure out why people aren't competing like they used to and why we aren't getting a bigger number of new competitors. I know many still do compete so this isn't directed at those that do, but the less experienced guys. Feel free to post comments aside from voting. Let us know what would get you into competing or what is keeping you from competing. 

Thanks in advance for your replies and comments. Hopefully we can work something out to make competing accessable to everyone who is interested.


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## UCF52 (Nov 20, 2007)

I voted "I'm just not interested in it, I have a stereo for myself and daily driving"

I guess I'm just not confident enough in my tuning skills and sheer knowledge of mobile audio to go to a competition. Maybe that's the best way to learn I suppose. I would like to get a meet going somewhere here in Florida - I think being around others (vastly more intelligent) and listening to properly staged stereos and having others critique my own would certainly be an eyeopening experience.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I know some fear the egos they may encounter...

I compete but only to meet folks with the same interest. If we could just have monthly GTG's I'd be more up for that... competing isn't cheap.


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## UCF52 (Nov 20, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I know some fear the egos they may encounter...
> 
> I compete but only to meet folks with the same interest. If we could just have monthly GTG's I'd be more up for that... competing isn't cheap.


x2 on all points.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

I don't think we have much for SQ comps around here, or I would try to hit a few, even just to listen at first. I used to do some SPL comps, but I never liked the idea of burping my ****.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

I don't compete because... 

I build my systems for myself based on my likes and dislikes... not a rulebooks definition of how it should be.


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## dirthog (Jun 21, 2007)

I voted no shows in my area. Or it's that I don't actively look for competitions and that's probably due to me feeling like my system isn't up to it yet.

It's been over two years since I put my first two pair of 6500's in my car. Since then I’ve joined the other website and then I was pointed in the direction of DIY, never looked back. I wanted sq in the beginning but had no idea what it really took.

I have my system tuned pretty well now and plan on making changes to my doors. After that and retuning, now with more experience and confidence, I feel I'll have a bug to compete.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I said other, here's why, and I'll go thru the questions.

There is NOTHING within 100 miles of me SQ competition wise, startup price is no biggie, it's done for my taste, but the price for entry, hotel room, gas, etc adds up to do nothing but stand around with my car in the sun. Which does pay the ultimate price of at least 1 night and one full day away from my family on a beautiful summer weekend.

I don't worry about volume, I know it's not loud but I know it will do what I want it to for the most part, I have no interest with SPL.

My original vote would be, no interest. It's tough for me to wrap my head around complete strangers going over my car, then letting a few more complete strangers sit in it with the motor running that have no formal education in music and telling me what they THINK it sounds like. The best advice I have gotten thus far was from conductors and performers, listening to a performance of theirs while seated in the drivers seat, especially conductors since th mics were directly over their head. I trust their judgment more, sorry. I let very few people even ride with me let alone just have it for a while.

I actually DO own a Honda hatchback so no comment  

And now for the other. Attitude, possibly, I can be quite frank myself but some take the thing WAY too far for a hobby, I don't like that, especially for such a small hobby.

I feel install points should stop wiring-wise where you have reached the level of OEM integration. No extra points for sticky tabs every 5 inches, tex flex ********, etc. Red for positive, even a red marking, blue for remote, standard labels OR colors. The wiring stuff has gone WAY overboard and I feel no extra points should be awarded for that. Is there a category for utility and invisibility? Too many cars are simply un-useable. Some of us are average Mikes and Stans (Palin ruined "average Joe") and USE our vehicles.

So that pretty much sums it up. I DID compete when I was rather young, like teens. All DIY still back in the late 80's. It was fun, I met people and got some nice bragging rights in my one-horse town, but that's not my bag now. I just did local stuff and did rather well considering I did not know my penis from a broom. But the kid who's mommy and daddy spent the most money at the store always won, followed by the individual that spent the most. These events turned quickly to "bass wars" and I visited one or two.

I enjoy the hobby, playing in the garage on shopnight (woot TOMORROW!), teaching my kid the ropes with the tools, getting satisfying results and enjoying life. I WILL make the Illinois MEET. And who knows, there may be one in Bloomington IL soon, you may see me and the boy there  But for now, I'm happy with what I have, no need to flaunt it, no need to be nervous. Unless I can bring my lawn-chair, Jim Beam, Wading pool, and a designated driver. 

Chad


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Easy, Canadian customs won't let me bring VBA across the border. If I had VBA installed, I'd win like all the money, trophies, and steal all the chicks and stuff. It would hardly be fair. You're welcome.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I dont compete in SQ because I dont know how to tune for somebody else's taste


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

imjustjason said:


> I don't compete because...
> 
> I build my systems for myself based on my likes and dislikes... not a rulebooks definition of how it should be.


We wouldn't have met if I didn't compete. Think, you woulda missed out on my wonderful personality had you not stopped by that comp last month.  



chad said:


> Unless I can bring my lawn-chair, Jim Beam, Wading pool, and a designated driver.
> 
> Chad


the invitation is still there.


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## tomtomjr (Apr 24, 2008)

I don't compete because 99% of my equipment is 15-25 years old. Doubt many of the people who compete would even know what my stuff is. The only thing I have even kind of newer are the big subs and a few amps. Other than that, all very old. Maybe if there was a "old-school" or "vintage" class. I would be all over it. So, car shows for me till they bring cassette tapes and vinyl back.


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## drtool (Nov 26, 2007)

Just to busy.If I compete in anything my ocd kicks in and it aint purddy.I do really like the g 2 g. I have met some really kool people because of this forum, and a # of more I would like to meet someday.
Wayne


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think some of you guys are too worried about cosmetics. That is a minor point, and not a point if you do MECA or IASCA sound only.

And as far as tuning for some else's tastes...I tune how I like it, and it just happens to do well in competition. These days the competition is a side event to get to the Top 30 rounds where judges use their own disks and have different judging criteria. You would be surprised at cars that tuned for one disk and fell flat on their face with the judge's own music. A good overall tune will let you do really well in both events.

And old school is COOL! Bring it to a show.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

I did .....SPL......the mic does the judging....not really into making someone else happy beside my self....maybe I am AudioSelfish.


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## JZL (Dec 4, 2008)

Just like audio for myself as well.Voted not interested.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> We wouldn't have met if I didn't compete. Think, you woulda missed out on my wonderful personality had you not stopped by that comp last month.


True, true. But I wasn't competing... you were I will attend as many shows as I can get to. But, I have always done my stuff for me, not what a judge would want. Who knows I may have the same taste as one judge and the complete opposite of another. 

I competed one time in 1987 at a NACA event... I don't remember it very well other than how serious everyone else was. I did notice that nearly every competitor knew each other... so the making friends thing was working 20 years ago.


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## sammy (Apr 14, 2008)

I've heard so many great systems that I'm better off enjoyong what I've got than coming 100th every time
Sammy


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

all I heard was 'blah, blah, ... you're a fine looking young man, Erin'


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> all I heard was 'blah, blah, ... you're a fine looking young man, Erin'


You can't be talking about me... I'm OLD.

I used one of your posts in the favorite DIYMA posts of all time thread.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I think some of you guys are too worried about cosmetics. That is a minor point, and not a point if you do MECA or IASCA sound only.
> 
> And as far as tuning for some else's tastes...I tune how I like it, and it just happens to do well in competition. These days the competition is a side event to get to the Top 30 rounds where judges use their own disks and have different judging criteria. You would be surprised at cars that tuned for one disk and fell flat on their face with the judge's own music. A good overall tune will let you do really well in both events.
> 
> And old school is COOL! Bring it to a show.


I tune to where pretty much everything that goes in the player sounds good. Surprizingly leveling everything out by ear with frequency centered pinknoise turns several tuning sessions into one 5 min session and another a couple days later to make sure my ears were sane the first round. Don't know if this is an acceptable method but it works for me.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm a bit stumped, many of your options are geared towards SPL only. For example: not being loud enough and not driving an S-10 or a CRX.

These have absolutely nothing to do with SQ.

So I'm wondering, are you more concerned with SPL or SQ with this poll?

To respond to those individuals who think they don't have the knowledge or the system to be competition worthy, I'd just like to say something.

They have different classes for a reason. Not everyone in competition competes at the expert level. Experts didn't start at expert, they most likely started in intermediate themselves....or even basic.

Just as in school, you cannot expect to further your education unless you push yourself.

We compete mostly because we love being around that group of friends. We also compete because we've realized that if we hadn't of started competing, we never would have learned as much as we have.

I love fabrication. I love building things. I love building the car. Competing gives us the chance to play and to hone our fabrication skills.

The rules in SQ are designed around proper installation techniques. There's really nothing there outside of the norm.

The sound judging critera isn't just some critera designed by a single person, they are generally the standard things that most any experienced audiophile will review a system on.

Yes, SQ is a very subjective sport. That's why I'm a firm believer that isn't not a single win that makes a statement....because if you had put another judge in the lanes, the results might have been different.

To me, it's multiple wins, consistently, that is important. 

There's also the fact that many people out there just simply are not competitive in nature.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

tomtomjr said:


> I don't compete because 99% of my equipment is 15-25 years old. Doubt many of the people who compete would even know what my stuff is. The only thing I have even kind of newer are the big subs and a few amps. Other than that, all very old. Maybe if there was a "old-school" or "vintage" class. I would be all over it. So, car shows for me till they bring cassette tapes and vinyl back.


Why does it matter how old your stuff is?

If you compete in sound only, the judges never have to see your equipment.

Even if you're doing install judging too, many of the judges LOVE seeing older gear. You would be surprised how many people are running older gear.



thehatedguy said:


> I think some of you guys are too worried about cosmetics. That is a minor point, and not a point if you do MECA or IASCA sound only.


USACi has the Q classes too. ALL orgs. do.



> And as far as tuning for some else's tastes...I tune how I like it, and it just happens to do well in competition. These days the competition is a side event to get to the Top 30 rounds where judges use their own disks and have different judging criteria. You would be surprised at cars that tuned for one disk and fell flat on their face with the judge's own music. A good overall tune will let you do really well in both events.


To take this point further, you're not really tuning for someone else's taste. In order to advance your knowledge and your abilities, you should be able to tune for multiple different set's of ears.

However, yet again, there are people who are happy with the status quo. They don't want to take it to that next level and they don't like competition. In that case, nothing will change their mind, perhaps other than just getting involved in a single show. Who knows, it just might bite them.

And old school is COOL! Bring it to a show.[/quote]


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## UCF52 (Nov 20, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I tune to where pretty much everything that goes in the player sounds good. Surprizingly leveling everything out by ear with frequency centered pinknoise turns several tuning sessions into one 5 min session and another a couple days later to make sure my ears were sane the first round. Don't know if this is an acceptable method but it works for me.


I also use pink noise to level match - have had great results so far.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm not competitive... I guess I would like to be, but, I just don't feel the need to pick every single part of the install and take it to the most finite degree.. 

I've nothing near me for comps either.. closest would be Tronto Ont.. or about 5-6hrs away..


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

My radio is solely for my ears. I have enjoyed the get togethers. If people have enjoyed listening to my car that's great but a competition is of no interest to me.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FWIW, I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about competitions in a general sense. Sure, it’s a competition… but it’s only like that if you treat it that way. 

In my area a competition is a GTG, pretty much. I’ve only entered two comps, but speaking from that small experience, MECA pretty much operates in this area and has quite a few events during the comp season. Therefore, the GTGs are essentially the comps, or vice versa. I know I’ve made a few posts about trying to get folks to attend these comps if nothing more than just to hang out and listen to other rides. 

In a nutshell, the GTGs you all have is a competition without the trophies. At least, that’s the equivalent here.



As for others telling you what you hear, or whatever… I understand where you’re coming from. But, you don’t _have_ to take their advice.


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## larryboy2911 (Jun 27, 2008)

chad said:


> I said other, here's why, and I'll go thru the questions.
> 
> There is NOTHING within 100 miles of me SQ competition wise, startup price is no biggie, it's done for my taste, but the price for entry, hotel room, gas, etc adds up to do nothing but stand around with my car in the sun. Which does pay the ultimate price of at least 1 night and one full day away from my family on a beautiful summer weekend.
> 
> ...


That pretty much sums up my sentiments to the T. It used to be something that allowed us to show off creativity and skill, but now it seems the entry price in that regard is high. Those who want a daily driver that sounds great, looks clean and can still carry groceries seem left in the dust with dedicated (read un-driven) show cars that will never recoup the investment.

I wouldn't mind going and seeing some of the shows now a days, but I'm not traveling to the east or west coast for a car show. What happened to the midwest?!

As a side note, I can't say how geeked I am about finding this forum full of people that appreciate the quality of audio, installation/fabrication, and creative expression in a similar way that I do. I'm a little dissapointed that it hasn't caught on to the "industry".


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## filtor1 (Apr 24, 2008)

I have gone to local shows with friends. They had thier systems stolen. This is the only thing keeping me from comps. If it was an isolated incident, I would not care, but it happens a lot here. I do go to competitions, but I never bring my car for fear of losing all my hard work to someone looking for something for free.

The bigger shows in the state I haven't missed in years. Mainly SBN. That show is great. I have met the competitors and many of them are stand up ppl. So I would mind entering in some of the larger shows that aren't local. Not that the chance for theft in Daytona isn't there, I have seen otherwise, but they won't know where I live unless I tell them. 

On a side note. I love the Bass Race concept. This is what I would compete in if I were to enter. I like the idea of a run what you brung concept. The predicatability of the upper classes are to be expected. The level of investment involved sets them apart. I like the demo aspect of the higher classes too. It keeps me motivated.

There are issues with all competition. The very nature of it is, well, competitive and people like winning. So the ego's are to be expected. It actually makes things more fun to watch from a spectators point of view. I am sure it drives the other competitors to push themselves as well.

If car audio doesn't die off completely by the time I graduate, I will participate.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

I picked that "there aren't any comps near me." That and I know that my system isn't up to competition levels. I would go to comps if I had them near me and listen/learn. Then after a while I'm sure I'd hop in. But I'm not going to drive 5-6 hours AT LEAST just to go to a comp. 1-3 hours one way is about my max for a day trip.


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## Lake Country Customs Mike (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes this was geared more towards spl than sq. I was surprised at how many sq guys answered though. Unfortunately at least in Usaci, sq is set up with a intro class that allows people to get there feet wet, but the spl side doesn't. I personally do both and enjoy going to shows. Myself and other competitor reps from Usaci are trying to find out what we can do to get more inexperienced guys into spl and possibly create a class similar to the intro sq classes so they actually stand a chance at shows and maybe get bit by the competition bug from there. Thanks for all the responses though.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> They don't want to take it to that next level and they don't like competition


I don't really see competition as the next level, I see it more as a move backwards. I could go on and on about why I think competition is flawed but I don't really see much of a point. It's fine if you compete and enjoy it but don't try to convince the rest of us that competition is the pinnacle of mobile sound quality.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

mschwitz said:


> Yes this was geared more towards spl than sq. I was surprised at how many sq guys answered though. Unfortunately at least in Usaci, sq is set up with a intro class that allows people to get there feet wet, but the spl side doesn't. I personally do both and enjoy going to shows. Myself and other competitor reps from Usaci are trying to find out what we can do to get more inexperienced guys into spl and possibly create a class similar to the intro sq classes so they actually stand a chance at shows and maybe get bit by the competition bug from there. Thanks for all the responses though.


I mean no disrespect here, but you do know that this is an SQ geared forum right? That's why you are getting SQ responses. There's a very low percentage of SPL people on this board.

Zach


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## jdc753 (Nov 14, 2007)

I don't know of any comps in my area yet but I am hoping to start competing or at least start attending some shows come spring time. My truck will never be a "show vehicle" or built for any other purpose than my enjoyment and functionality (so no blow thru taking up space in my 8' bed.) Also I am the FARTHEST thing from a competitive person and honestly find much of the concept silly, HOWEVER I do like the idea of meeting others, and hearing feedback (judging) on my truck whether it be looks or audible impressions both good and bad. I love building and crafting things probably even more than I do like listening to a nice stereo. So if I can get into competitions and learn things I can improve upon and hear what others think of my creation I would be happy, plus its gotta be cheaper than getting into competitive drag racing, road racing, or rock crawling lol


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

I want to compete in SQ but I really am having a hard time finding the time (with 3 little kids) to install my system let alone compete. I would like to compete in an entry SQ level in USACi but I don't want a tie break to come down to SPL to win. The points should be broken down so ties become a rarity. 
Cost is another factor.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> I don't really see competition as the next level, I see it more as a move backwards. I could go on and on about why I think competition is flawed but I don't really see much of a point. It's fine if you compete and enjoy it but don't try to convince the rest of us that competition is the pinnacle of mobile sound quality.



Jan said nothing about competing being the pinnacle of anything... how can having a set of standards & evaluating & re-evaluating those standards NOT take your install to the next level? If you tune, tweak, work, revamp.. grade & judge your work. In order to improve you must go to the "next level"... 

If an athlete is running a marathon... doesn't his/her time = a judgment of performance & therefore in order to improve, the next level is a faster time....

I will give you that the subjective portion of Sound Quality judging leaves ALOT to be improved upon... but what we currently have is the level we are working with. its not like SPL... its a number... concrete... like the runner's final time... but that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

We all compete to find the weak point & strive to be better/faster/stronger/louder/ or more musical as it were.

I love how some people will post in one thread about measurements, documentation, proof, etc & then belittle the exact same concept in another thread... gotta love consistency....

Rob


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

TXwrxWagon said:


> how can having a set of standards & evaluating & re-evaluating those standards NOT take your install to the next level? If you tune, tweak, work, revamp.. grade & judge your work. In order to improve you must go to the "next level"...


Why do you need competition for this to happen? Are you saying people are incapable of making improvements without someone else there to judge them? Is there a level that cannot be reached without being a competitor?



> If an athlete is running a marathon... doesn't his/her time = a judgment of performance & therefore in order to improve, the next level is a faster time....


Time is easy to quantify, sound quality is not. If you ask 10 people what sound quality means to them you'll get 10 different answers.





> I love how some people will post in one thread about measurements, documentation, proof, etc & then belittle the exact same concept in another thread... gotta love consistency....


So where are these measurements and proof etc. in the competition world? All I see is subjective opinions, seems to me like the complete opposite concept.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> But, you don’t _have_ to take their advice.


Nor would you have to take it personally.


In general, some people do well with competition, and others don't. It's not directly related to how someone performs under stress. What sucks is when competition feeds bloated egos and leads to secrecy which retards progress rather than shared knowledge and advancement.


I don't feel the need to compete and I'll always use my car as a car first. My appreciation of car audio is a byproduct of my LOVE for music. But I think I may start looking into shows just to hear the objective definition of SQ, possibly get some advice, and to familiarize myself with products that I've never heard.


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## SublimeZ (Jan 28, 2008)

Other: (SQ response)
My install isn't cosmetically up to competition. Will also have a pretty good drive to make shows.
That being said, I do have plans to revamp with competition in mind. Went to usaci finals, and it looked like fun. so hopefully, I'll have matching amps, tabs, techflex and some custom work done by summer...
Also, to address another point, my car may look like a "show car" but it's my dd. Not gonna compromise the functionality, for show. Luckily, I believe that both are possible.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

what does matching amps have to do with competition? Not sure I follow there.

Tabs?

Custom work?

None of these things are necessary to be competitive. Techflex (actually it should be referred to as "loom" as "TechFlex" is the name of a company), isn't necessary either. You just need to protect wire. Split loom will work too. ESPECIALLY in the intermediate classes. 

To touch on the point made above about going the extra mile on an install....in competition, you must have a way to separate people. If you don't put something in the rules that touches on going above and beyond being worth extra points, how else are you going to be able to award points in order to separate cars? In competition, no matter what it is, you have to have a scoring system that separates people from one another. Just take a look at the scores in the beginner classes. At any show, the beginner classes inevitably have ties in scoring. You have to introduce more ways to earn points in order to prevent that from happening and to seperate those who just want to do the minimum to get by and those who are willing to go above and beyond in order to push the envelope.

Again, if pushing the envelope isn't your thing, then competing isn't really your thing either.


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## SublimeZ (Jan 28, 2008)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> what does matching amps have to do with competition? Not sure I follow there.
> 
> Tabs?
> 
> ...


Just not gonna do half-ass. If I'm gonna compete, have to at least be in the ballpark. My current system is lacking in a couple of areas.(not enough sub power, mainly) This will precipitate an amp change, and they might as well match. Also means I need bigger power wire, so I'll step up to the pretty stuff while I'm at it. Another coming change is to a Dayton 15 HO. It won't fit where my current sub resides,(without making trunk dysfunctional) therefor custom work. 
redoing everything, so it will be geared toward comps. Doesn't mean everyone has to, just that I do. :blush:


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I have no interest in SPL Competitions in my opinion it has nothing to do with music, it’s just a bunch of noise and let’s see who has a bigger schmuck.

I do have an interest in improving my SQ and if competing will give me some insight as to how I can improve my setup I'm all for it.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

michaelsil1 said:


> I have no interest in SPL Competitions in my opinion it has nothing to do with music, it’s just a bunch of noise and let’s see who has a bigger schmuck.
> 
> I do have an interest in improving my SQ and if competing will give me some insight as to how I can improve my setup I'm all for it.


Jut as much work goes into SPL as does SQ, just different animals, try squeezing 2 more db out of your sub stage with the same power


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Jut as much work goes into SPL as does SQ, just different animals, try squeezing 2 more db out of your sub stage with the same power


I'm sure it takes a lot of work for SPL! 

I'm old and I’m looking for something very different.


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

I voted none near me. 
Actually there isn't anymore. I used to compete in the day, a long time ago, as a pro in 251-500W class. I stopped when it stopped being fun. Actually, I learned alot from competing and I am very glad for it. Never the less, it stopped being fun. Now a days, I simply use what I learned from then and apply it to now. The only thing I miss from competing is the people I met; I do miss a lot of them.


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

I don't wanna go to a competition and hear some guy's 10k system with four F1 processors and 2345 hours of fab work put into it because all that will do is make me hate my own install. 

You can't envy what you don't know.


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## crosspug (Jul 14, 2008)

I know this is more a US based thing, but thought I'd throw my 2c in anyway.

Comps down here (aust) are much smaller where I live even though its the largest city!

Anyways, I'm an average or below competitor but enjoy the GTG and laughs that happen as well as the actually sound of other cars. At our recent "big" event for the year the car that won went against all that seems norm for a "winner" in this kind of thing..... 

It has.....2way passive fronts, 125w to each side, 1 IDMAX12, 1000w (from memory) to the sub, stock locations (doors and dash), limited processing from an older 5XXX eclipse headunit...... Against other MUCH more intensive/expensive 3way/4way installs it still came out on top.... Why? its genuinely sounds good. Good install.

Certainly made me want to compete MORE as I know that I can do better even without having to upgrade to the biggest and bestest.....

Anyway return to normal programming....

Jono


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## RYNOMOTO (Oct 3, 2008)

not only is there a lack of competitions around here, mine is not loud enough to really do much....


I think that TomTomJr brought up something interesting.....

what about some vintage or "old school classes" 

1. Old school Tube class for tube amps in SPL classes with appropriately classed wattage and speaker count max

2. Old school tube class for tube amps in SQ classes with appropriately classed wattage and speaker count max


3. Old school digital spl

4. Old school digital SQ




I would love to see some of these systems out there for fun in competitions....

I know that I would start attending more shows as a competitor or at least as a spectator if there was more variety than just burp n bumps


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

There is more variety than just burps n bumps. There's more to competition than just SPL....

And why have a vintage class when you can run and be just as strong with old school amps (especially tube amps).

I can understand the vintage motorcycle and automobile racing as there's a huge difference between those cars/motorcycles and modern cars/motorcycles....but vintage audio equipment? I'm just not so sure I agree....not to mention, power classes aren't even a factor any more in SQ as there aren't any power classes.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Doing a few local shows in one thing.....not even an issue for me.

If you want to gather enough points to follow the season to the end and travel to the farthest reaches of the US....thats when things get expensive and require the dedication I'm not capable of.

You have to have a fairly uneventful life to dedicate yourself to an entire season to Auto Sound competition.....or a _*very deep*_ bank account.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

wow - so those of us that do this on a regular basis have an uneventful life?

hrmm.....strange.....*we* have an uneventful life?

o....k....


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but can one of the competitors explain to me why the "competition" component is useful? Is it for motivation? Just fun? I'm afraid I don't really get it. Car audio meets can be a great way to get ideas and have discussions with people who know their stuff -- and it beats a forum because you also have the opportunity to LISTEN to the final product of these ideas.

But you can have these things without making it a "competition". In fact, it seems to be a distraction from what could otherwise be a more open and fruitful experience. I also think it gives car audio enthusiasts a bad name.

And no, I'm not anti-competition. It just seems to me that a lot of the justifications for the competition circuit tend to focus on the non-competitive portion of things.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

It pushes the envelope.

I would venture to bet that if you asked any one of the greats in Car Audio if they would have gone as far as they did to have a great sounding car if they didn't compete the answer would be no.

The worlds greatest sounding cars come from competition. They come from people wanting to better their systems and be better than those they compete against.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> The worlds greatest sounding cars come from competition.


I'm still having a hard time believing there is a level of performance that can only be reached through competition.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> It pushes the envelope.
> 
> I would venture to bet that if you asked any one of the greats in Car Audio if they would have gone as far as they did to have a great sounding car if they didn't compete the answer would be no.
> 
> The worlds greatest sounding cars come from competition. They come from people wanting to better their systems and be better than those they compete against.


But is winning the competition the answer? I'd also bet that the greats in car audio were also motivated by being considered a great in car audio -- something that doesn't necessarily need a win-loss record to achieve. Lots of people earn this reputation regardless of the size of their trophies.

Consider the "real world", where people are motivated to do things without having to have an actual competition. The closest analogy I can think of is in the scientific and technological communities, where ideas are shared and presented at conferences without the need for trophies. I think the flow of information becomes muddled when the focus becomes (at least partially) based on scoring and the adherence to a predefined one-size-fits-all test.


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## supercoupe (Nov 25, 2008)

i dont compete just because i havent really been into mobile audio for that long and i dont know about the bias people...everyone around here is "boston" this and boston that nothin else is worth a dime to them and i dont want my setup to be shot down cause it aint boston


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## aztec1 (Jun 13, 2008)

I voted "other". There are events here sometimes, I try to go to them to listen to systems and see builds, and maybe even meet some cool people.

Nothing is wrong with trying to meet standards or even surpass them...but I sure ain't gonna try out for the Olympics just because I can run fast. The only thing that would do is allow me to say, "Hey, I'm faster than that guy." Doesn't float my boat really. Another reason is music is a personal experience for me whether I'm at a concert, home, or driving. Somebody picking my **** apart might offend me :blush:


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> I'm still having a hard time believing there is a level of performance that can only be reached through competition.


very rarely do you find great basketball players outside of the pros, same with many other sports.

Why should this be any different? Competition pushes people to do more.



MarkZ said:


> But is winning the competition the answer?


No, it's not the answer. It's the means to an end.



> I'd also bet that the greats in car audio were also motivated by being considered a great in car audio -- something that doesn't necessarily need a win-loss record to achieve. Lots of people earn this reputation regardless of the size of their trophies.


Chances are, they got there by striving to be better than the year before.

In competition, you have a unique chance to listen to many great cars and to get some great feedback on a regular basis. Unlike going to a local meet a few times a year.



> Consider the "real world", where people are motivated to do things without having to have an actual competition. The closest analogy I can think of is in the scientific and technological communities, where ideas are shared and presented at conferences without the need for trophies. I think the flow of information becomes muddled when the focus becomes (at least partially) based on scoring and the adherence to a predefined one-size-fits-all test.


Scientists focus their efforts to reach an end goal...discovery.

If we had never been involved in competition, we would have thought our car was fine a few years ago...we were happy with it.

Now, knowing what we're capable of, we're striving to attain more with the car. And no, I'm not talking about trophies.

I think you would probably be surprised to learn that for most of us, the trophies really aren't important. I've been to a number of shows where I've left the trophies. I've thrown away more trophies than I currently have in the house. If it were all about trophies, I don't think you would find that individuals would donate their trophies to the scouts or not even take them home.

Those in the lower classes are always striving to achieve the win in the higher classes eventually.

Like I said, not everyone has the competitive gene. If you don't have it, chances are you will never understand it.

I played team sports for years up till college. I was _very_ serious about competing and about winning. not because I wanted to be able to say I won, but because I spent all that time trying to make myself better and trying to improve my game.

Same with those scientists that you mentioned. They strive for more because of something inside them. Something inside them says they can do better. They surround themselves with others who feel the same.

Car audio competition is no different really.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Like I said, not everyone has the competitive gene. If you don't have it, chances are you will never understand it.


BOOM you just nailed it. I could care less about competing but do value feedback from those who do. Nick fixed a HUGE phasing trainwreck and everything else was polished with eq by Mark. Wish you could have heard the "after".

What sports did you play Jan? You look to have a lot of Italian in you and Italians seem to be more competitive than others.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

Everything....lol

Softball for 14 years...including all star ball.

Basketball, soccer, track, tennis, swim team, roller hockey, inline racing, etc.

Most of them when I was younger, as once I got into high school, I focused on basketball and softball.

Actually not sure what I have in my family, as my family is pretty much non-existent...lol


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Everything....lol
> 
> Softball for 14 years...including all star ball.
> 
> ...


I'm not athletic at all. Don't even like watching sports. Fishing however is a staple in my life

I'm half german, quarter french, quarter english. That's why I'm such an ugly sumbitch


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

I can't stand to sit and watch most sports. I have to be involved, otherwise, it just seems like you're watching a bunch of people, wishing that you could do what they do or getting so involved in their lives that it's scary stalking.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Competitive fishing is the hardest sport in the world. Don't believe me? Just ask the ones that do it. Knowing an flw pro and being best friends with his nephew is making me want to takes someones money too. Tournaments take all the fun out of it for me but winning money makes it all worth it in the end. Oh well


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> very rarely do you find great basketball players outside of the pros, same with many other sports.
> 
> Why should this be any different? Competition pushes people to do more.
> 
> ...


I don't mean the actual _trophies_. I was using it as shorthand for the competition process itself. And like I said, I have absolutely nothing against competition in general. I just think, in this so-called "sport", it's a little lame. And then when people are called out on it, they revert to justifications that don't actually require the competition portion of it -- like the ability to go out and listen to other people's audio systems, etc.

Is the field so devoid of intellectual curiosity that they need to drum up interest by creating competitions? It sort of reminds me of fantasy football in a way. Some people can't just enjoy the game of football -- they need a personal stake in it.

Personally, I think that most of the people who strive for great things in car audio would continue to do so if car audio competitions didn't exist. You basically said so yourself when you acknowledged that car audio is like scientific endeavors -- something that doesn't need contests for the advancement of ideas. Why should car audio be much different?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Scientists focus their efforts to reach an end goal...discovery.





MarkZ said:


> The closest analogy I can think of is in the scientific and technological communities, where ideas are shared and presented at conferences without the need for trophies.


FWIW, the reason we went to the moon was based on competition...

JFK & the Space Race
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historica...Speeches/JFK/Urgent+National+Needs+Page+4.htm


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> FWIW, the reason we went to the moon was based on competition...
> 
> JFK & the Space Race
> http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historica...Speeches/JFK/Urgent+National+Needs+Page+4.htm


That's not science. That's government battling over funds to allocate.

Besides, that's not a competition in the same sense as what we're talking about here. Sure, in many branches of science, some groups "compete" with other groups to be the first to discover certain things. That form of competition would obviously still be present in the absence of trophies.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> I don't mean the actual _trophies_. I was using it as shorthand for the competition process itself. And like I said, I have absolutely nothing against competition in general. I just think, in this so-called "sport", it's a little lame. And then when people are called out on it, they revert to justifications that don't actually require the competition portion of it -- like the ability to go out and listen to other people's audio systems, etc.


Well, where else can you go to hear great cars all in one place in a matter of a day? It's sure not local meets.



> Is the field so devoid of intellectual curiosity that they need to drum up interest by creating competitions? It sort of reminds me of fantasy football in a way. Some people can't just enjoy the game of football -- they need a personal stake in it.


Have you noticed that ever since SQ comps faded in popularity, so too have high quality head units, high quality tuning equipment, etc? SQ comps faded in popularity and so too did high quality sound in a car. Now that it's coming back into popularity, people are headed back into SQ comp. The average level of the cars you see at competitions compared to the average level of cars at local meets is a pretty big difference. This is not to say that local meets don't have good cars, but it is to say that you find higher quality cars at competitions.

I can't get into fantasy football either. I can't really enjoy football in general....or many other professional sports for that matter. To me, it's more about living vicariously through someone else than by trying to live a life that's interesting and exciting.



> Personally, I think that most of the people who strive for great things in car audio would continue to do so if car audio competitions didn't exist. You basically said so yourself when you acknowledged that car audio is like scientific endeavors -- something that doesn't need contests for the advancement of ideas. Why should car audio be much different?


I don't agree. Competitions provide a place for people to go to be around other people who are willing to go to great lengths to get great sound. If competitions didn't exist, and we only had to rely on local meet and greets, we wouldn't have the opportunity to see and hear great cars.

Would you drive across the country just to go to a local meet and greet? Competitions bring people from all over the country together to compare their vehicles and try and improve what they have.

This happens at local meets too, but not to the level that even comes close to competition levels.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I understand, but you guys did call out Science and Technology. Couldn't think of a finer subject of the two.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Jan I see where you're coming from on high quality cars but most of those have so much work in them it's unreal. What about those of us who prefer to KISS for the most part? I'm sure I'll never have more than a 3-way head in the dash, amps, speakers, and linedriver if needed. Solid install with proven tactics and call it a day. Your car is awesome and your work shows but most aren't willing or have the time to go as far as you did. I'm still going to make my doors more solid and possible deaden my b-pillars to stop some buzzing there but that's it. What I like about local meets is it gets people together that take a minimalist approach mainly. Most are happy with getting most of the way to perfection.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Well, where else can you go to hear great cars all in one place in a matter of a day? It's sure not local meets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems you've missed my point in all three of your responses. I think you've assumed that I meant that cars were unnecessary in car audio meets, which is ridiculous.

The question I've asked is why the *competition* component of the car audio get-together (whatever you want to call it) is necessary, or even advantageous. You can "see and hear great cars" without having to form an elaborate judging and scoring system that, unfortunately, many people are designing their cars around. To me it would be more useful to "see and hear great cars" that offered a variety of different approaches (point system be damned), instead of trying to shoehorn them into a one-size-fits-all competition.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> It seems you've missed my point in all three of your responses. I think you've assumed that I meant that cars were unnecessary in car audio meets, which is ridiculous.
> 
> The question I've asked is why the *competition* component of the car audio get-together (whatever you want to call it) is necessary, or even advantageous. You can "see and hear great cars" without having to form an elaborate judging and scoring system that, unfortunately, many people are designing their cars around. To me it would be more useful to "see and hear great cars" that offered a variety of different approaches (point system be damned), instead of trying to shoehorn them into a one-size-fits-all competition.


That's pretty much my view. And at competitions I've noticed the competitors have their "game face" on. I avoid comps now because of that.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> wow - so those of us that do this on a regular basis have an uneventful life?
> 
> hrmm.....strange.....*we* have an uneventful life?
> 
> o....k....


You took that the wrong way.

It's not an insult...but similar to getting a Musical act recognition by touring the country playing gigs....competing requires a comparable dedication...maybe not to fullest extent...but you dedicate your Fridays/Saturdays/Sundays to competition....and driving.

It's possible to go strategic shows...rack up a bunch of points....and get your invite to Finals....but is that realistic?

For some of us in the North East we have to drive long distances to get to the shows. I could do a few shows....but after that I'd be driving excesively.

And above all else.....like I said...it's *DAMN* expensive.

Personally I'm *not willing* to allocate the funds necessary to compete.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> That's pretty much my view. And at competitions I've noticed the competitors have their "game face" on. I avoid comps now because of that.


Another disturbing point that I didn't touch upon. 

It takes away alot of the fun and meaningful interaction of these events.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

The poll was hard to answer because I wanted to click all of them, except for the CRX/S-10 one...I don't get that one.

One problem in the Detroit/Metro area: No stores that even care about this. I actually heard about a sound competition in Taylor, but to be honest, nobody wants to go to Taylor, plus it was set up as a SPL competition. The last thing I want to do is go to a SPL/car hopping event in Taylor. Any of you that live in Michigan know exactly what I'm talking about.

To build a winning system, money is key. I still think the classes should be based not on how much wattage you are running, but how much you spent, as to the original MSRP of your gear, or maybe a combination of both. Some kind of weighting perhaps? I probably won't be able to compete with guys that can afford who Hybrid/Morel/Macintosh/etc etc stuff. We are talking thousands of dollars just in equipment. 

I left SCCA racing for that very reason. The guys with money win, damn near 99% of the time. I lurked at a couple of competitions, and that was exactly what I saw. Fabrication was intense, expensive, and extremely time consuming. 


I do really like the local meets here. Just about 10-15 of us get together a few times a year to check everything out and eat some food and listen to each others' systems. I don't think anyone really cares about the competition portion of it, though there has been some expressed interest in it. I think there are a lot of reasons that people like getting together for these meets. Such as:

1. Getting recognized for a job well done. You sure as hell don't want to do all that work and have it never get noticed. 
2. Fellow hobbyists can actually be hobby nerds without social repercussions. 
3. New ideas for the next project
4. Learning time and time with equipment you may have never seen before.


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## redcalimp5 (Sep 10, 2007)

imjustjason said:


> I don't compete because...
> 
> I build my systems for myself based on my likes and dislikes... not a rulebooks definition of how it should be.


X2 Very well put, man.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Jan I see where you're coming from on high quality cars but most of those have so much work in them it's unreal.


That's all in the eye of the beholder. We have over 600 hours of labor involved in our car. That's real and it's real feasible and 'real' worth it for the end result we've achieved...in our eyes.



> What about those of us who prefer to KISS for the most part? I'm sure I'll never have more than a 3-way head in the dash, amps, speakers, and linedriver if needed. Solid install with proven tactics and call it a day.


That's what we've done in our car. The only difference is, we took the time to dress up a solid install.



> Your car is awesome and your work shows but most aren't willing or have the time to go as far as you did. I'm still going to make my doors more solid and possible deaden my b-pillars to stop some buzzing there but that's it. What I like about local meets is it gets people together that take a minimalist approach mainly. Most are happy with getting most of the way to perfection.


EXACTLY! That's the point that I'm making! Glad someone realized it.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> It seems you've missed my point in all three of your responses. I think you've assumed that I meant that cars were unnecessary in car audio meets, which is ridiculous.


No, that's not what I assumed, sorry if it came across that way.



> The question I've asked is why the *competition* component of the car audio get-together (whatever you want to call it) is necessary, or even advantageous. You can "see and hear great cars" without having to form an elaborate judging and scoring system that, unfortunately, many people are designing their cars around. To me it would be more useful to "see and hear great cars" that offered a variety of different approaches (point system be damned), instead of trying to shoehorn them into a one-size-fits-all competition.


Not every car that competes sounds the same. I promise.

For those who have listened to our car & marks car, there's a very big difference. Our car and Chris Pate's car, etc.

There are some major differences there. Differences I don't really need to go into on this forum.

Not all cars in competition sound the same, not by a long shot. Some people strive for a recording studio sound (Pate), some strive for a live sound (us), some strive for score sheet perfection at shows, some strive for imaging over tonality, some strive for tonality over imaging, etc.

There's more than one way to skin a cat in competition. Take our car for example....it's completely outside of the box for the normal competition world. Computer as the only source unit, fabrication work consisting of mostly steel and welding, nothing's hidden from view, everything is there for everyone to see....short of the computer behind a panel.

Other cars out there, that's not so.

Competing isn't fitting inside of a box. It's not fitting into a standard.

Those who do so, typically don't do so hot in competition.

Those who think outside of the box, and who build a car, which by all accounts _excite_ people about audio, specifically car audio, are those who typically win. A car can image with pinpoint precision, but a lot of judges aren't awed by that. If the car doesn't make them want to tap their feet and sing along, it's not going to score well. There's a ton of ways to judge by the score sheet. That's precisely why learning the different judges and their listening style is so critical to doing well in competition.

If you can tune a car and make the majority of judges like it, then you've proven your competence. If you can only tune a car to what you think sounds good, you're only going part of the way there.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> Personally I'm *not willing* to allocate the funds necessary to compete.


That's great! I'm sure you have other hobbies that take up your time and your $$ as well. Most everyone does. Those of us who compete, choose for this to be a major hobby for us.


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> That's pretty much my view. And at competitions I've noticed the competitors have their "game face" on. I avoid comps now because of that.


really, how is this any different than those who play sports competitively? You're working you way towards the end goal of finals, and hopefully winning. In sports, it's towards the championship. These guys take it very seriously.

Even if it's not for the $$...take the Olympics for instance. How many Olympic athletes retire off of their winnings and sponsorships after winning a gold...not many at all.

Like I said, some people don't have that gene. People being serious about being all that they can be tend to run off those who aren't in it to be all that they can be. That's the difference between amateurs and professionals.

That's why you have people who understand competing and people who don't. And there's nothing wrong with that at all...as long as people understand that.

Really, this is all just going around and around and around in a big circle, beating the same dead horse, over and over.

Some people see the value and the benefit to competing. Some don't. Does that mean that one is right and the other is wrong? _No_! It's all about you and your wishes and desires.

I will say this though, competition has gotten me into my past 2 jobs (possibly even this next job that I'm waiting to hear back from). It's taken me places I never would have gone otherwise. It's improved my speaking abilities and has helped me to remain involved. It's kept be busy. I don't spend nights at the bar, blowing money on drinks, I spend nights in the garage, working on an end goal instead. It's shown my employers that I'm dedicated and professional and that I see a project through to the end. That I'm willing to go that extra mile to make a difference and to be the best that I can be. Some people have something else that gives them the same benefits, something other than car audio competitions. The thing is, most everyone has something. While others may not understand that something, that doesn't mean that you get the same end result out of NOT doing it.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Not every car that competes sounds the same. I promise.
> 
> For those who have listened to our car & marks car, there's a very big difference. Our car and Chris Pate's car, etc.
> 
> ...


They may not sound the same, but they all have the same goal. I think it's naive to believe that there isn't a set of tradeoffs involved in car audio, and to think that you can achieve everything all at once -- not only as far as sonics go, but also in terms of retaining the usability of the car, its aesthetics, and resaleability. To think otherwise is really an oversimplification of the challenges we face. I'm not suggesting that you're saying this, by the way, because I'm sure you acknowledge that there are indeed tradeoffs in every build...


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> They may not sound the same, but they all have the same goal.


Doesn't everyone in this field? The end goal being a car that makes you happy when you listen to it.



> I think it's naive to believe that there isn't a set of tradeoffs involved in car audio, and to think that you can achieve everything all at once -- not only as far as sonics go, but also in terms of retaining the usability of the car, its aesthetics, and resaleability.


I'm not sure where this came from, but I certainly believe that there's trade-offs. Believe me, I of all people understand this. We've been told that to compete at our level, we would have to rebuild our dash. We've been told that we would have to build pillars that are .3 cu. ft. in volume, etc. We have had to trade off on imaging, in order to retain the usability of the vehicle. Though we don't have a trunk any more, we still are able to put the dog and bags in the back seat and travel to see family 5 hours away. We're still able to throw a cooler, tent, and bags of clothes as well as everything else we need to compete in the car and drive the 16 hours to Daytona Beach, 12 hours to Atlanta, 12 hours to South Padre Island, 12 hours to Biloxi, 8 hours to Omaha, 12 hours to Kentucky, 22 hour to Baltimore.

If we didn't have to keep the car drivable. btw - the very car we compet in IS a daily driver, it IS a grocery getter, it IS the bad weather car, and it IS used for commuting when weather prevents us from riding the bikes. It wouldn't have 115,000 miles on it otherwise. And yes, it's original paint.

It's all about how serious you're willing to get. I've taken pride in my car since the day I've owned it. Yes, it's all original paint, except for bumpers. Yes, that's the true odo reading of ~115,000 miles. Yes, it IS a completely useable car. And yes, we have won 3 titles in the Adv. Pro class with the exact same configuration. It's 100% entirely feasable to have a completely useable car and still compete at a high level AND be successful at it. 

So what if we loose next year and it can be directly attributed to the fact that we weren't willing to pull our dash and rebuild it. So what if we loose to someone that had 4 times the budget as us. It just pushes us to do even better with what we're willing to do. Many, MANY people said that winning in the Adv. pro class with a stock dash (and a computer) was impossible. Many people claim the same in the expert class. Our goal, eventually, is to prove them wrong...in a creative fashion. 

Why? Because we want to prove to the rest of the world out there that you DON'T have to go to the extremes that some of these guys have gone to have a great sounding car.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> EXACTLY! That's the point that I'm making! Glad someone realized it.


But that's the thing, sure most people won't go to these great lengths but that doesn't mean there aren't other highly motivated people out there that will go to these lengths for their own personal enjoyment and that their car can't sound just as good or better than a competition car. Some people need competition to motivate them to push the limits and some people don't. There's no magic in competition and winning a competition doesn't mean you're the best it just means you were the best out of the handful of cars that was there that day according to whatever specific criteria you were being judged on.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> really, how is this any different than those who play sports competitively? You're working you way towards the end goal of finals, and hopefully winning. In sports, it's towards the championship. These guys take it very seriously.
> 
> Even if it's not for the $$...take the Olympics for instance. How many Olympic athletes retire off of their winnings and sponsorships after winning a gold...not many at all.
> 
> Like I said, some people don't have that gene. People being serious about being all that they can be tend to run off those who aren't in it to be all that they can be. That's the difference between amateurs and professionals.


Sorry, but that's a line of ********. A "professional" scientist, for example, will go to a meeting with other scientists and present their work and share ideas without the need for a scorecard. A guy who makes widgets will go to widget conventions and do the same. What you're talking about ISN'T about the spread of new ideas, presenting innovative work, or being at the forefront of the field, even though that's almost always the excuses competitors come up with to defend car audio competitions! 

It's not a matter of having competitive "genes". Some of us are very competitive, and so we may play sports or some other thing. But we don't pretend that our sports are for the benefit of improvement of ideas. We acknowledge that it's for sport! Car audio competitors refuse to do that.

You're right that it's all about people's wishes and desires. It's not that we non-competitors don't understand. It's that some of us treat car audio as a means to achieve an end, rather than a sport. This gets back to my very first question in this thread, where I asked "is it just for fun?" That seems to be the case. I'd be surprised if most of the people doing a lot of the really innovative things in car audio needed competitions to keep them motivated. But that may be the case, and frankly if it is, that's a pretty sad state of affairs for the field.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Doesn't everyone in this field? The end goal being a car that makes you happy when you listen to it.


That's too vague to be of any use. When I said "same goals", I was referring specifically to the goal of trying to please a set of people who have, more or less, a pretty standard set of listening preferences. And before you say it, yes I know there's individual variation among judges, but it's really not all that substantial.



> I'm not sure where this came from, but I certainly believe that there's trade-offs. Believe me, I of all people understand this. We've been told that to compete at our level, we would have to rebuild our dash. We've been told that we would have to build pillars that are .3 cu. ft. in volume, etc. We have had to trade off on imaging, in order to retain the usability of the vehicle. Though we don't have a trunk any more, we still are able to put the dog and bags in the back seat and travel to see family 5 hours away. We're still able to throw a cooler, tent, and bags of clothes as well as everything else we need to compete in the car and drive the 16 hours to Daytona Beach, 12 hours to Atlanta, 12 hours to South Padre Island, 12 hours to Biloxi, 8 hours to Omaha, 12 hours to Kentucky, 22 hour to Baltimore.
> 
> If we didn't have to keep the car drivable. btw - the very car we compet in IS a daily driver, it IS a grocery getter, it IS the bad weather car, and it IS used for commuting when weather prevents us from riding the bikes. It wouldn't have 115,000 miles on it otherwise. And yes, it's original paint.
> 
> ...


That's an admirable goal. Keep up the good work. BTW, I'm not condemning what you do or what you have for hobbies. I'm trying to explain why some folks don't compete, and why I believe that the competition circuit can be a distraction from true progress.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> That's great! I'm sure you have other hobbies that take up your time and your $$ as well. Most everyone does. Those of us who compete, choose for this to be a major hobby for us.


I've chosen Car Audio as my hobby and there's a learning curve involved, which can be costly.

I just went to my first SQ competition and kept an open mind; I participated in order to support the event and to learn. I like hanging with my fellow enthusiasts and if I score well all the better.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

As someone that has competed on and off (background for these comments) I'd like to chime in...

I don't have a single doubt that car audio comps have spurred the increase in sound quality in cars. The after market car audio indusrty WAS (past tense) largely driven by the car audio competition scene. You used to see ads all of the time with "world champion XXXX recommends" or tons of trophies sitting in front of a product. When the big three saw the amounts of time and money put into after market car audio their products increased in quality. 

Also, until you sit down in a quality SQ car you are not aware of what can be done. For years I thought I had a great sounding vehicle (everyone said so, it must be true  ). When you sit down in a very good vehicle you get to see what is possible and now you have a goal (don't start talking about comparing to home audio systems either - apples to oranges comparisons).

Now does this mean that I think that car audio comps are great, NOPE. My biggest gripe is they take too damn long. I don't have an entire day to dedicate to car audio very often. Most of those days end up being used for install and tuning. 

By God if I'm stuck there all day, there should be something to do other than just look at other cars (many times you see the same vehicle over and over). On a related subject - MECA Boom and Zoom is GREAT! SPL comp followed by a trip down the drag strip (fun stuff - even in my Saturn).

I know why judging takes so long but there should be a better way...

Maybe make more of the clinics. I know that in the beginning I would have been glad to pay (entry fees) for someone to listen to my vehicle and help me tune. You could man the clinic with contestants (from a different class) to keep from loading the judges down with additional tasks.

Finally, competitions have a defined set of scoring criteria (I'm primarily discussing SQ). This criteria forces you to examine the car against a fixed set of criteria. Many will complain about this but it is the best way to add at least some objectivity to the activity. Is it completely objective... hell no! However, it is a step in the right direction.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Jan for what it's worth I was told I could do VERY well in intermediate with what I have right now as it sits. Was also told to bypass beginner because of the insane spl requirement to take out the ******* that's still a basshead.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I’m not a proponent of competitions, nor do I think going to them makes you a (insert negative word(s) here). 


Let’s try this… everyone likes GTG’s, right? Well, in some situations comps are more prevalent (read my other post… comps are more common than GTGs because they’re so often in this area). So, the competitions have become a ritualistic ‘get together’, but more frequently.

You go to get togethers to get ideas, feedbacks, learn, and chat. Comps are the same way… you just get a trophy, too (if you’re deemed worthy). That’s really about all it comes down to. All the other ‘stuff’ that goes into comps…. Well, you’d probably find at a GTG; pick a subject/item, I’m sure it’d apply. 

Maybe I can be seen as viewing this too simple-mindedly (I made up a word… awesome!), but I really think this is getting blown way out of proportion. You either attend and compete, or you don’t. There’s no evil to it. Competition is intended to bring out the best of you and cause you to strive for more. Okay, you don’t agree with the feedback you’re getting from judges, thus you don’t make changes to appease a judge, thus you don’t win world finals…. Who really cares? If all you’re interested in is a trophy anyway, then you’ve got bigger fish to fry (see: irony; not doing what is needed to win… but I thought you didn’t really care about winning?).


All this talk of system components, or wire management is purely a wash. Unless you compete in ‘install’, then no one cares. I’m proof of that. 

My $.02.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> That's great! I'm sure you have other hobbies that take up your time and your $$ as well. Most everyone does. Those of us who compete, choose for this to be a major hobby for us.


Absolutely.


While car audio is a major part of my life I'd have to forgo other hobbies monetarily if I dedicated my Summers to competing...not to mention I don't even think I could afford to pursue it 100%.

So really it *IS* more of a money thing for me.

When you have more money....you can *spend the money* instead of the time.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> I’m not a proponent of competitions, nor do I think going to them makes you a (insert negative word(s) here).
> 
> 
> Let’s try this… everyone likes GTG’s, right? Well, in some situations comps are more prevalent (read my other post… comps are more common than GTGs because they’re so often in this area). So, the competitions have become a ritualistic ‘get together’, but more frequently.
> ...


I don't think anyone's trying to label it as evil. I just think the usefulness gets watered down in the distraction. I also think it's a turn-off for many folks, and it's not as open as it otherwise could be.



SSSnake said:


> Finally, competitions have a defined set of scoring criteria (I'm primarily discussing SQ). This criteria forces you to examine the car against a fixed set of criteria. Many will complain about this but it is the best way to add at least some objectivity to the activity. Is it completely objective... hell no! However, it is a step in the right direction.


And that's my major point of contention. I think that's a step in the wrong direction. That's precisely what I mean when I say things like "one-size-fits-all". You CAN'T take something as complex and subjective as personal enjoyment, preference, and individual goals and make it objective. You just can't. It's impossible. So when you create a situation where everybody is trying to achieve this objective standard, one of two things must happen: 1) some people have to redefine their goals to adhere to the goals of the competition; or 2) people with different goals will be excluded from the process. And that's the tragedy when meets take the form of competitions rather than an open exchange of ideas.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> I don't think anyone's trying to label it as evil. I just think the usefulness gets watered down in the distraction. I also think it's a turn-off for many folks, and it's not as open as it otherwise could be.


IME, the only real turnoff is the price. Like I said, there’s a lot of parallels with comps & GTGs; advice, critiquing, listening, etc, etc, etc. _These_ are the reasons why I chose to compete a couple times this past year. It was a bit intimidating, as I was competing in Modified Extreme Plus (HEAVY hitters in this category), but I wasn’t fooling myself into thinking I could win this competition, nor did I really care about winning. My goal is to try to improve. I get feedback and use it or don’t. Pretty much as simple as that. I can say for a fact that if I hadn’t gone to some of these I’d still be dealing with a lot of issues in my car. Issues that are simple to fix, but hard to figure out just how to fix them. 

Those who take it further… that’s their choice. But IMO, it’s not like competition is as bad as some are making it out to be.


To me, GTG + entry fee + trophy (possibly) = Competition


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

If I put my car in a competition and I didn't get some really good feedback from someone other than myself (judge, other competitors) who knows what to listen for, I don't think I'd ever go back. I think that is an invaluable part of the learning process. The score sheet would be worthless to me. 

I also think that certain people are jealous of those that can take their cars to the next level and therefore are always going to have an anti-competition stink pervading them. Aside from the occasional inflated ego, I think competitors are a great resource for a n00b like myself.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

OH SNAP just added up how much in fishing gear is in the boat with me on our "wildcard" trips or during tournamentsKinda depressing actually:blush:Guess we found my money pit eh?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> IME, the only real turnoff is the price. Like I said, there’s a lot of parallels with comps & GTGs; advice, critiquing, listening, etc, etc, etc. _These_ are the reasons why I chose to compete a couple times this past year. It was a bit intimidating, as I was competing in Modified Extreme Plus (HEAVY hitters in this category), but I wasn’t fooling myself into thinking I could win this competition, nor did I really care about winning. My goal is to try to improve. I get feedback and use it or don’t. Pretty much as simple as that. I can say for a fact that if I hadn’t gone to some of these I’d still be dealing with a lot of issues in my car. Issues that are simple to fix, but hard to figure out just how to fix them.
> 
> Those who take it further… that’s their choice. But IMO, it’s not like competition is as bad as some are making it out to be.
> 
> ...


I don't think the equation is nearly as simple as that because, as I've pointed out, the competition nature of the whole thing transforms the goals of the GTG. When you create a set of goals that aren't necessarily consistent with another set of goals, then the people with that other set of goals are essentially excluded from the process.

Of course, I don't literally mean that they're excluded. They can still come. And many of us still observe, despite having goals that may differ from some of the others. There ARE lots of valuable things to experience. But you change the focus when you introduce a competition component based on "objective" criteria, as SSSnake brought up.

Let me ask you guys one more question... How come innovation in home audio still thrives despite there not being a similar competition circuit?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> I don't think the equation is nearly as simple as that because, as I've pointed out, the competition nature of the whole thing transforms the goals of the GTG. When you create a set of goals that aren't necessarily consistent with another set of goals, then the people with that other set of goals are essentially excluded from the process.
> 
> Of course, I don't literally mean that they're excluded. They can still come. And many of us still observe, despite having goals that may differ from some of the others. There ARE lots of valuable things to experience. But you change the focus when you introduce a competition component based on "objective" criteria, as SSSnake brought up.


Here’s my main point: whoever you get advice from, whether it be a ‘pro’, a judge, a regular ol’ dude, a speaker maker… whoever, their tastes are most likely not your tastes. So, we get the same thing in both meet & greets, or a competition. I’m pretty sure you’d agree with me here. 

IOW, the goals you speak of are always different from person to person. So, when XX gets out of my car and says “tweets are too loud”, that doesn’t mean YY will say the same. So, who’s opinion do I listen to? … Well, you don’t have to make a change based on either of their opinions. But, you can absorb the feedback and look into why you don’t have a problem with things. Then, as you listen to other cars you may want to note how the tweeters sound and then after a while maybe (maybe) you realize that ‘hey, my tweeters _are_ too loud.’ Or, maybe you don’t.

Point is, you’ll always get opinions, whether or not they are consistent, and you don’t have to implement a single suggestion. This then gets back into my “irony” comment above. You’re either there to win trophies at the sacrifice of your own standards (assuming you don’t agree with a single suggestion given to you), or you can not make those changes and continue on about your way. Maybe compete later, maybe not. It’s your choice. But, the keyword here is _choice_. 




MarkZ said:


> Let me ask you guys one more question... How come innovation in home audio still thrives despite there not being a similar competition circuit?


That’s a bit rhetorical, no? You’re saying car audio doesn’t thrive? Are we limiting this band to SQ only? Are we talking about innovations for all kinds of home audio (some people don’t care about SQ, just as in car audio)? There’s a lot of variables to your question and I wouldn’t even know where to start with my opinions on this. Quite literally, when I read that question my mind went into a frenzy… ADD at it’s finest. 



***keep in mind I’m not arguing with you… we’re just talking ***


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

Funny how JAn is having to defend the SQ competion world......kinda like if someone came one here saying SQ was over rated and a waste of time and money. One thing that drew me from SPL to SQ was the lack of attention to detial in the SPL lanes......most seemed to raw/ragid MDF and my box was one of the prettiest there....and it only had carpet on it. I guess it really depends on where your heart is and competitive mind is.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Here’s my main point: whoever you get advice from, whether it be a ‘pro’, a judge, a regular ol’ dude, a speaker maker… whoever, their tastes are most likely not your tastes. So, we get the same thing in both meet & greets, or a competition. I’m pretty sure you’d agree with me here.
> 
> IOW, the goals you speak of are always different from person to person. So, when XX gets out of my car and says “tweets are too loud”, that doesn’t mean YY will say the same. So, who’s opinion do I listen to? … Well, you don’t have to make a change based on either of their opinions. But, you can absorb the feedback and look into why you don’t have a problem with things. Then, as you listen to other cars you may want to note how the tweeters sound and then after a while maybe (maybe) you realize that ‘hey, my tweeters _are_ too loud.’ Or, maybe you don’t.
> 
> Point is, you’ll always get opinions, whether or not they are consistent, and you don’t have to implement a single suggestion. This then gets back into my “irony” comment above. You’re either there to win trophies at the sacrifice of your own standards (assuming you don’t agree with a single suggestion given to you), or you can not make those changes and continue on about your way. Maybe compete later, maybe not. It’s your choice. But, the keyword here is _choice_.


I understand. But, as you framed it above, then what's the point of competitions? If you acknowledge that musical tastes, system goals, and listening preferences all differ (sometimes substantially), why invest the effort in focusing on the competition when it's really the interactions that are the valuable part? Adding the competition component is almost like a sideshow.




> That’s a bit rhetorical, no? You’re saying car audio doesn’t thrive? Are we limiting this band to SQ only? Are we talking about innovations for all kinds of home audio (some people don’t care about SQ, just as in car audio)? There’s a lot of variables to your question and I wouldn’t even know where to start with my opinions on this. Quite literally, when I read that question my mind went into a frenzy… ADD at it’s finest.


No, I'm not saying car audio doesn't thrive. I'm saying that home audio innovation thrives, even though there isn't a huge competition circuit established. The point is that the car audio competition is an unnecessary component. Or, as I said in a previous post, just for fun. I don't want to ruin anyone's good time. I'm just saying let's call a spade a spade here.



> ***keep in mind I’m not arguing with you… we’re just talking ***


Yeah, I know. And we're both willing to discuss the issue, even though there's no trophy being handed out at the end.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

MarkZ,

You don't have to have the same goals and objectives for the criteria to be applied. Are the criteria geared more toward certain aspects of SQ than others... YES. Would I recommend modifying them... YES. But none of this means you are pushed towards a one size fits all solution.

Anybody that has been to competitions will tell you many of the cars that scored very closely (overall), sound very different and likely are very different implementations. 

There is only one real trend that I see and think is disturbing... low volume systems. Most are evaluated at levels that would not be realistic for driving down your average road. But even having said that, there are quite a few systems that will really crank and sound good doing it.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

SSSnake said:


> MarkZ,
> 
> You don't have to have the same goals and objectives for the criteria to be applied. Are the criteria geared more toward certain aspects of SQ than others... YES. Would I recommend modifying them... YES. But none of this means you are pushed towards a one size fits all solution.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, I know there are wonderful systems there. Again, I'm not knocking the experience of going to these things and listening to what people have come up with. What I'm criticizing is the notion that you can "compete", and that the competition leads to anything useful. Not the get together -- the competition.

Just to reiterate, it's insane to think that we can come up with a simple parameter space to encapsulate what there is about car audio, about musical tastes, and about personal preferences! And having such a parameter space, even if not an explicit one, is an ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENT for any kind of competition.

Can we come up with a parameter space to determine who the best rock band is?

Edit: PS - I think the trend you've observed is very troublesome for what a significant portion of car audio enthusiasts are looking for. Good sound but at low volumes is a pretty huge caveat.


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## kota_sounds (Apr 21, 2008)

i build a system for my pleasure not for someone else to say this does or does'nt sound good...just not my style


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> There is only one real trend that I see and think is disturbing... low volume systems. Most are evaluated at levels that would not be realistic for driving down your average road. But even having said that, there are quite a few systems that will really crank and sound good doing it.


I learned the hard way that paying attention to the volume knob is a MUST. Still I don't understand why some people tune their systems to be "just right" at max volume while sitting still. At meets I tell people not to be shy about cranking it up in mine since I do it all the time and made sure it was safe to do so when tuning. What's the point of even having a system in the first place if you have to turn the volume down for fear of blowing something up?If that's the case common sense tells me to either get stouter drivers, cross higher, or if clipping is an issue MOAR POWER.


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## foosman (Oct 14, 2007)

One word. Linearity. It is one of the most difficult aspects of tuning. Most systems (mine included) have a sweet spot where everything works well together but you turn the volume down and you begin losing some of the information. Thats why I have a competition setting for reasonable listening volumes that the judges seem to favor, and then another setting for blowing down the road with the windows open and the Shelby exhaust singing along.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

foosman said:


> One word. Linearity. It is one of the most difficult aspects of tuning. Most systems (mine included) have a sweet spot where everything works well together but you turn the volume down and you begin losing some of the information. Thats why I have a competition setting for reasonable listening volumes that the judges seem to favor, and then another setting for blowing down the road with the windows open and the Shelby exhaust singing along.


Oh ok. I feel ya on the linearity issue. That's one reason I keep my sub a little hot at times since I don't like to listen very loud (or not listen at all) while driving around town or basically high traffic in general. Gotta hear what's around me on the outside and keep my mind focused on the road. Now if I'm practically the only one out there like when going to heber or some dudes house to eat his wifes browniesearly in the morn or late at night I air that sucker out


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Sorry, but that's a line of ********. A "professional" scientist, for example, will go to a meeting with other scientists and present their work and share ideas without the need for a scorecard. A guy who makes widgets will go to widget conventions and do the same. What you're talking about ISN'T about the spread of new ideas, presenting innovative work, or being at the forefront of the field, even though that's almost always the excuses competitors come up with to defend car audio competitions!
> 
> It's not a matter of having competitive "genes". Some of us are very competitive, and so we may play sports or some other thing. But we don't pretend that our sports are for the benefit of improvement of ideas. We acknowledge that it's for sport! Car audio competitors refuse to do that.
> 
> You're right that it's all about people's wishes and desires. It's not that we non-competitors don't understand. It's that some of us treat car audio as a means to achieve an end, rather than a sport. This gets back to my very first question in this thread, where I asked "is it just for fun?" That seems to be the case. I'd be surprised if most of the people doing a lot of the really innovative things in car audio needed competitions to keep them motivated. But that may be the case, and frankly if it is, that's a pretty sad state of affairs for the field.



Sorry, but this post crossed the line. We're no longer discussing, now you're just flat out insulting.

I'm done...and really have been done for some time now...as this topic has just been going around and around, discussing the exact same things just with different words.

Face it, you don't get it, many people don't get it, other people do.

Suffice it to say that it's not your boat, but for others it is.

Bashing it is like bashing someone's religion...it's what they choose to believe for their own reasons. Bashing it and insulting them doesn't result in anything of value.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Sorry, but this post crossed the line. We're no longer discussing, now you're just flat out insulting.
> 
> I'm done...and really have been done for some time now...as this topic has just been going around and around, discussing the exact same things just with different words.


I just reread my post and don't see anything in it that could be considered an insult...



> Face it, you don't get it, many people don't get it, other people do.


...On the other hand, your continual insistence that we non-competitors "don't get it" is the height of arrogance.



> Bashing it is like bashing someone's religion...it's what they choose to believe for their own reasons. Bashing it and insulting them doesn't result in anything of value.


Whatever. How many times did I have to say I wasn't bashing what you like to do for fun? I was explaining to you why many of us see no value in it. It's for basically the same reason why you see no value in watching sports. But did I say you were "bashing" football?


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## RedGTiVR6 (Jun 26, 2007)

for the record, I constantly insisted that some people just don't get it *and that's fine.*

*THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!*

Please do not twist my words to fit your pleasures.

Calling my statement '********' is insulting. There are more appropriate ways to say that you don't agree. Using the word '********' implies angst and ire.

To me, competition _does_ facilitate the spread of new ideas and concepts. I've seen it, I've experienced it, I've lived it, I've been a part of it.

The point I'm making is that we both have different opinions and we should leave it at that. The point you're making is that since I'm not willing to believe your opinion, then I'm arrogant...I'm not ok with that and in fact it's insulting, as I posted previously.

Stating that those of us who compete (myself included) are '_*pretending*_' that it's for the benefit of ideas...is insulting, whether you see that or not. Your words are very strong. We're not pretending anything. We've been there and experienced it. It's not make believe, or pretend. To suggest it is, is flat out insulting.

The fact that I'm constantly having to explain it, using the same terms, the same words, etc. IS evidence that you don't get it. Just as the fact that you're arguing the same points is evidence that I don't get your point of view. Don't sugar coat it to make it something it's not.

We don't understand each others points of views. Why is that so hard to understand and accept?

So yes, you did insult me and a number of other people who compete in car audio, as well as those who have dedicated themselves to this sport for years (decades even).


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> for the record, I constantly insisted that some people just don't get it *and that's fine.*
> 
> *THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!*


That would be like saying "You don't know how to read -- and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that!"

Or "Your sister's a whore. And that's fine! I like whores!"

It's condescension, no matter how hard you try to console someone after the fact.



> Please do not twist my words to fit your pleasures.
> 
> Calling my statement '********' is insulting. There are more appropriate ways to say that you don't agree. Using the word '********' implies angst and ire.


Ok, I take back the word ********. Of course, it might be worth your while to go back and look at what I was responding to. Specifically, your insistence that non-competitors have a fear of competition in general (or whatever it was that prompted the "competitive gene" nonsense). Or your statement that competition defines the line between professional and amateur, despite all the evidence I provided in other fields that demonstrate that's complete bul...nonsense.

If anyone "doesn't get it", it's you. I keep having to type the same things over and over again to you, but you still reply with strawmen. And I know it's not a communication issue, because the others in this thread understand exactly what I'm saying, whether they agree with it or not. So either you're intentionally distorting what I say and addressing that distortion, or you just "don't get it."

So, please, don't take the holier than thou approach. I'm not saying you're arrogant because you don't agree with me; lots of people in this thread don't. I've said you're arrogant when you call people who disagree with your stance "amateurs" and that they "don't get it". You don't see what's insulting about that, but the word "********" is like an arrow in your heart. 

When you stop being condescending, we can discuss these issues in a civil manner like the rest of the people in this thread.



> Stating that those of us who compete (myself included) are '_*pretending*_' that it's for the benefit of ideas...is insulting, whether you see that or not. Your words are very strong. We're not pretending anything. We've been there and experienced it. It's not make believe, or pretend. To suggest it is, is flat out insulting.


Before you criticize, learn to read what's written. And yes, that's probably an insult. Almost as insulting as warping what I wrote so that you could type that paragraph.


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

I'd like to compete, but my stereo is not up to snuff... I'm slowly but surely getting there.

I think the thing that compels me to compete is the fact that I can see what others think about my setup and have it ranked against others'. Most of the people I know listen to my stereo and just say "wow" - they have no reference, and no idea of the goal that I'm striving towards. They just don't understand. So competing will give me an idea of how well I've done. The only opinion I have now (that I can trust) is my own.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> Sorry, but this post crossed the line. We're no longer discussing, now you're just flat out insulting.


I reread Mark's post, and even drawing all possible inferences in favor of seeing it as being insulting, there's no there there. I can't find anything remotely bordering on insulting.



RedGTiVR6 said:


> Face it, you don't get it, many people don't get it, other people do.


What's to get, really? I wasn't going to say anything in this thread, but the fact of the matter is that the most important point has yet to be discussed.

Why don't I compete? I don't compete because, yes, I have other priorities that either demand my time or better comport with my preferences. 

However, there's another reason I would not compete even if that were not the case. I do not particularly care to be an unpaid adjunct to the marketing arm of the aftermarket car audio industry. In fact, I would be quite happy if 95% of that industry just vanished off the face of the earth. Yes, there are a few exceptions of car-fi companies that have taken interesting or novel technologies from other, more progressive, sectors within audio, such as JBL, with the GTi series evolved from pro audio, and hopefully soon the MS8 evolved from Harman's OEM car audio work; or Alpine, which is still the only company to market Audyssey MultEQ XT for the car, though pervertedly their processors that cost as much as some Audyssey-equipped home AVR's do not have the full suite of Audyssey technologies such as Dynamic Volume and DynamicEQ, which would be if anything more useful in the car environment. The fact of the matter is that car-fi is second only to Palinite Republicans or boutique "High End" home audio in its persistent fealty to retrograde reaction over progress. And car audio competitions are, fundamentally, a means of marketing the crap they push to the unsuspecting. The real improvements in car-fi today are coming from the OEM sector, but instead of doing what they should be doing (taking the technologies used there, but using parts - especially on the speaker side of the things - that may be better but do not meet OEM's budget targets) aftermarket car-fi venders keep selling the same pointlessly large class-AB amps with either no modern features or crippling of what should be standard features on the theory that "high-end" car-fi customers are pathetic blithering idiots (see, e.g. Zapco DC amps), Faraday ring-less drive units, ugly head units, etc. There's no wonder that they're going down the tubes!

I have no objection to competition for others. Installers who work in car-fi probably get sick of the daily grind, and I can't fault them for using competition as a means to express their creativity as well as create useful marketing tools to advertise their own capabilities. And some people just like working on cars and aren't that bothered by the fact that the companies that serve their itch do so in a manner that's utterly behind the times and therefore less useful, less accurate, and more expensive than it should be. That's cool. But for someone like me, whose primary interest is _music_ and in the end views gear and setup simply as a means to eke more of the recording into space, car audio competitions are never going to be either useful or particularly interesting.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

First of all, there's nothing in at least a 300-400 mile radius typically. Come on Chad, 100 miles got you shook? 

The NY/NJ/CT tri-state area has everything you could want except car audio competitions, lol.

I'd definitely would like to compete and see what's out there and see how these cars are assessed.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

I don't compete because they don't give away free stuff anymore.....what happen to the good old days


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

fredridge said:


> I don't compete because they don't give away free stuff anymore.....what happen to the good old days


They give Free Food!


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

LOL- Ok I'm in




michaelsil1 said:


> They give Free Food!


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## -Rob- (Nov 24, 2008)

I voted that I am just not interested, its for daily driving.
However, I was into SPL when I was younger and after a few years, it was more about not spending a lot of money, downsizing, saving trunk space, and having a nice clean setup rather than trying to "compete" with anyone.
For SQ, I would need a whole new setup with kicks, a processing unit, and probably better speakers. So you could also classify SQ as being too expensive for me as well. I'm cheap!


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## loudstreetrides (Nov 10, 2008)

I compete for the fun and experience, you can't win or have a good time at home..I go to shows


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

mschwitz said:


> Some others and myself are trying to figure out some new classes for the beginner/ average consumer to help bring car audio competition back to it's former glory. We are trying to figure out why people aren't competing like they used to and why we aren't getting a bigger number of new competitors. I know many still do compete so this isn't directed at those that do, but the less experienced guys. Feel free to post comments aside from voting. Let us know what would get you into competing or what is keeping you from competing.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your replies and comments. Hopefully we can work something out to make competing accessable to everyone who is interested.


1 2 3 & 4.

It is all about my happiness... not impressing anyone else.

I have a great time at home, i have a wife *wink*. I also have kids, videogames, bikes, a car to work on, a house and a yard to work on, all things that bring the same satisfaction in a job well done and done right as any competition.

and oh yeah, I live 4 hours drive from any decent sized town (tuscon, ALBQ) and 8 hours from a bustling metropolis (phoenix/DFW) in any direction. no way would I ever run my car for 8-16 hours just to compete.


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## Syracuse Customs (Oct 6, 2007)

Voted Other because:

No comps in my area like 300-400 miles to far away
No Time to go to a comp
No Time to Finish my Install
No Time to RTA my car for a couple days
No Time to Learn how to use my O-Scope
Making Time.........


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

i would like to keep my **** for more then a year


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

LOL- You don't have to compete to have that problem:blush:



Diru said:


> i would like to keep my **** for more then a year


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

fredridge said:


> LOL- You don't have to compete to have that problem:blush:



then you seen my theft rant from a little over a year ago

that didnt have anything to do with competing


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

ahh, I did see that, but wasn't connecting the 2......yeah, people are horrible..... i am surprised we don't see more problems from that because of the forums


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

Diru said:


> i would like to keep my **** for more then a year


thanks... I shot soda out my nose on this one!.. NO ****!... 4.5 hour drive to compete on a Sunday. Win... bring home a regional title!.. on top of the world... Drive 4.5 hours home... get up for work... haven't had time to remove sponsor decals... BANG.. middle of the freaking day, in a strip mall (thanks mall mangement for requiring us to park behind the ****ing red line in BFE) I go out at lunch to get something... 2/3 of the system is gone, the dash is destroyed.

Or even worse... take your car to the DEALERSHIP (aka *STEALER_SHIP*) & have them replace your engine under warranty (not to mention it takes 98 DAYS to get the job done (yes Virgina that is 3+ MONTHS!!!!) & have your car broken into AT YOUR HOME & all they take is your HU & a power programer? $80 in cash, a check book, all kinds of other stuff... 

The theft thing used to be a MAJOR issue, back in the day. Just like "spotters" @ the High schools. 

Still think ALL competition org's should REQUIRE a security system demo.... just like in the old days.... <see my next post>

Rob


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

Per mr. Chad's request from another thread "old vs. New"

Funny... Genxx & I were having this conversation on the phone just last night...

My prediction is that "old school" is going to make a MAJOR come back & sweep through the judging lanes... :edited info:

I still say IASCA & USACi & MECA need to bring back the Golf-club test... back in the day... if you couldn't fit a set of clubs in the car, you got docked points for install... vehicle was no longer usable as a vehicle.. I need to scan those old NACA/CAN judging sheets... the youngsters would DIE if they saw what a REAL judging sheet looked like!..

Rob


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## AceX (Dec 15, 2008)

Personally I just enjoy showing. I find that competition can turn ugly or suck the fun out of it. For some people its all about winning.

Don't get me wrong, I know some guys who compete and they're really awesome to sit down and have a beer with, but when it comes to their cars, they're all business.

I like my system. It has decent SQ and is still loud enough to beat out the scrapers at the stop light.


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## chijioke penny (Mar 22, 2007)

fredridge said:


> LOL- You don't have to compete to have that problem:blush:


x2 that will happen whether you compete or not!!!!!!!! But, this past year, I competed in some local show's. I really enjoyed the experience and will continue to compete (I plan on joining usaci and maybe another )!!!! I've learned a lot (still learning:blush: ) and meet a lot of great people who enjoy a lot of the same things I do "MUSIC"!!! Competing is fun for me and would encourage anyone else to try it first then make a decision on whether it's for u or not!!!!

just my .02 cent


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## Fish Chris (Dec 14, 2008)

*Okay......*

I bet you haven't heard this response;

It's because I am absolutely, positively, the LEAST COMPETITIVE guy you will ever likely meet ! 
Just to give you an idea, I DESPISE all ball sports. 
Sure, I love UFC, but I don't even dream of doing that myself. I just like to watch other guys beat each other up  LOL
I'm a hard-core fisherman, who might have caught more bass over 10 lbs, than anybody in Nor Cal.... certainly in the top 5.... Yet I absolutely HATE the idea of bass tournaments (for myself that is.... they are fine for some of my buddies)

I'm "not" going to sit here and tell you, "I don't know why I'm not competitive"... or, "that's just the way I am".....
That would be a complete lie. I totally know why I'm not competitive, but that in itself, is a very long story.

Suffice it to say, if I had a really nice stereo, which was worthy of competition, and you asked me to enter it, "Just the thought of that, would give me a very negative, sick feeling in my stomach".

Now. I'm not sure how this response is going to help you with getting more people to enter competitions. But you asked.....

Anyway, if their were any competitions in my area, on a Mon - Weds {my days off}..... Sat and Sun are lame days with too many idiots running around in my way, and better for work days anyway) I'd love to go check some out. Talking with a bunch of guys who are heavily into high end systems, and getting some great demos, sounds like a lot of fun, and a really good way to get new ideas for my own system. Just don't ever ask me to enter the competition myself 

Peace,
Fish


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## Calum (Aug 13, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> I don't compete because...
> 
> I build my systems for myself based on my likes and dislikes... not a rulebooks definition of how it should be.


wow, I couldn't have put it better myself.


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## Rob32 (Dec 23, 2008)

I am new to the idea of competing, but it seems to me as if there are not too many shows in my area. I was looking on the IASCA website, and the first show that is not 6+ hours away is in May. Maybe there are other shows that I, in my noobishness, don't know about, but the idea of driving 6 hours to lose to people doing this for years doesn't appeal to me too much.


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Good question - and in reality, there may come a day when I will compete. If I do, I think I will try and approach it as a "what can I learn about my system and set up that will make it better for my own listening experience?" sort of thing. I'm also already obsessive enough! If I got input on things to change, I'd probably go even more nuts changing things, and I really don't want to turn my fun into work.

Another BIG point is that I am sort of proud to have done 100% of my installation on my own. Being that I have done almost everything here as a first timer with access to only fairly shady equipment for the building aspects, I doubt that the things I've made would compare favorably to some of the folks who take their car to acknowledged and season vetrans to build each aspect of the car based on their experience and using their high end tooling to yiled near perfect results. I don't think I've done badly by anyones standards for a first timer, but I can't afford the time or money to learn each aspect of my installation like some folks who do it for a living do. Its an unfair expectation to set on myself.

The thing that sucks the most is that I am fairly alone up here in Central Michigan and I missed the one get together that took place in Detroit recently due to a schedule error. There is just soooooo much to learn in this field that no matter how much reading you do, it simply can't substitute for experience gained from attending events, gathering friends who have years of experience and actual hands on time with top quality gear... hell, I've not even heard a lot of the top gear yet in person... although I'm dedicated to changing that. Sadly, around here, the best shops only stock and sell the midrange equipment - while in Arlington where I spent the last 2 years, I was able to audition at least SOME of the higher end gear - Morel Supremo, Audison, Zapco and Arc... a few other decent brands in actual installations.

Those retailers dedicated to making money spend little time with the higher end folks... since the real money is in selling installations and packages to the thousands of people just wanting a step up from factory and not really caring about true sound quality enough to lay down the bucks... so unless you are in a high income area with a lot of arts and such, you can't expect to learn much from that route either. 

Also, its hard to think of my daily driver as a show car... its just too real - complete with dog fur to show it! I wanted to rebuild my late father Cadillac Deville - immaculate 2004 version with the lowest end electronics available - making it easiest to bypass all the tied in features. The car would have been SOOOO cool to build - but alas, I just don't have the time or the cash to do it while also making my own daily ride into its best.

I really hope to get to some competitions and gatherings so that I can honestly hear what AWARD WINNING sounds like... while I think my system is going to reach very near top of the line soon, its hard to know for sure without hearing others as a reference point. The cars I've heard so far all seemed to lack a littlesomething, and mine seems to have some advantage over most in one area or another... but its putting the whole package together that is tough. I doubt I'll ever get crazy enough with cutting my car up to truly accomplish the bass up front effect either... don't see it happening!

Lol - well that was a good excercise. I think I wrote this more for myself than for anyone else - so SORRY for rambling on and on. As often as I have considered competing, I never really thought about the reasons I never did it in a comprehensive way.

Less


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Why CRX and S10? They have the best cabin gain for all out SPL or what? I think burping is childish anyway. The more you focus on one frequency the less you focus on others. 

I wouldn't compete unless:

*It is cheap - $10 or less
*Judges are blindfolded
*There is no score card for wire polishing
*There is more focus on tonality and realistic output levels in a moving car, judge needs to be able to drive stick shift :laugh:
*No impractical mods allowed: center seating, extend seat rails, cutting firewalls or structural metal.

But then again the So.Cal. meets rock so I get my fill already.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

I competed for years ...quit ~10 years ago. It was more about motorized panels, chrome plated amp racks and neon lights than it was about SQ. It was also a 'car show' ...someone could have the best system possible ...and if it were in a rusted out 74 Pinto ...they would not have a chance. Also ...seemed that the winners were the guys with equipment from the sponsors. IASCA was a JOKE ....and I lost interest.

>^..^<


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## The Real Old Guy (Jan 4, 2009)

Hi All,

I have lurked around this forum off and on for a couple of years.

This question about competing is silly. If you want to subject yourself to an organizations rules to compete, that's what has to be. The organizations for the most part are for profit companies, so they do things in such ways to make money.

For those saying they have a car that isn't a "show car" or have a vehicle that sounds great but the install isn't up to "show quality" the organizations have listened and have sq only formats.

One thing that has been lost along the way is the competitor that is content to compete on the local level. The past 10 years or so it seemed everybody was shooting for a national trophy. Nobody was content with local shows. 

Local shows are where you learn how to compete, all the little things the "big guns" already take for granted. 

When I do a competition I show up already knowing what to expect and how to prepare for it. I have everything I would need in the trailer so if something happens there is no panic. Yes I said trailer. I learned to have the better experence at a show was to have the car trailered. That way it's already clean for the most part and all that needs to be done is clean the windows and dust the interior some. I can be ready for the lanes in as little as 15 minutes for the most part. 

Jan takes pride in having a national class daily driver, more power to her. I did the daily driver thing too, but I like the idea of just showing up with a show ready car, not aving to find a car wash or worry at night where I'm parking the car. At DSN I showed m car and demo'ed it on Sunday. I couldn't have judged and had the car on display if I had driven it. 

Catman said he quit because of the show aspect. Well how do you expect an organization to make money only having "regular" cars at an indoor show? Who would be willing to pay to see cars just like theirs? So at that time the organizations leaned the install rules for the show aspect. 

I also understand the money aspect. Yes it takes a certain amount to win, but it can be done without selling your first born. Note once again that not everybody can compete on a national level their first year.....I didn't.

comments?


Markey Dietrich

World Champion semi-retired


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

The Real Old Guy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have lurked around this forum off and on for a couple of years.
> 
> ...


You skipped by blindfold idea, everybody does. If these folks trust themselves to know good sound then why not? You wouldn't have to dust for points either.

Towing a car to the competition looses a lot of brownie points for forum members I imagine. I personally don't care about "showmanship" points and trophies. We're here to improve a daily driver. It's a different competition you speak of that doesn't appeal to most of us. That is why I give next to no credit to a lot of champ cars, you take them away from their medium and put them on a road and all magic is gone. If I wanted a stationary setup I'd shoot for floorstanders, a comfy couch and attic IB.

Of course we kinda skipped the ideal we're talking about here, which is a universal best sound. I can't say I agree with one tunning job working for everybody which makes everything very loosely held to begin with. 

I'd compete for fun and that's why it would have to be cheap. I can get better entertainment/$ doing other things.


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## Grim0013 (Nov 4, 2008)

I just did a search on the IASCA site for events in my area. (MAryland, DC, Virginia) There were zero results for 2009....OK, let's search for all years (1999-2008), to see what there has been... One show. That is all there is in their archives for my area. One show. I would love to check out shows, but there simply aren't any here. Weak.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^ Welcome to MECA! Check there for shows. 

IASCA only has like 2 real shows a year in the country (SBN and Elite). There are a few more in Florida--small local shows---but that is pretty much all that organization is doing these days. I have heard there may be shows in California this year, but not sure when those are (haven't looked at the calendar in a while)

MECA has a huge number of shows in the Virginia area. (and in the Eastern/central portion of the country). Overall MECA has a huge group of shows though. You can find some on just about any weekend if you live in that area. 

USACi is mostly a Mississippi to Colorado kind of organization. Also a large number of shows. 



MECA is a SQ only league. No install at all. USACi has the intermediate class which is mostly a yes or no scoresheet. It isn't hard to maximize that scoresheet. No creativity, nothing fancy at all. 

Blindfolding doesn't work because you have to be able to write numbers on a scoresheet. You can't have two people in there because having the second person in the car effects the sound of the car. If you do two seat judging, that is fine, but then both judges would have to be blindfolded and then again you have no one to write numbers down. 

99% of the judges I have anyway get into the car, grab the remote and close their eyes. They only open them to write down scores. I've never had a judge ask me what was in the car before he/she judged it and you can't see any speakers in my car. All they can see is the HU. Everything else is completely hidden. Doesn't hurt me.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^Also, I have nothing motorized. There is zero fiberglass used in my car. My amps are chrome--I'll spot you that--but they come that way from the factory, I didn't have them chromed. I do have some neon under my amps--never been on, never even mentioned it to the judge. It is white neon and unless you are in a field in the middle of the country with no lights anywhere around---you can't see it anyway. So it isn't even part of my install book and no judge has ever seen it. So it doesn't exist. 

My entire trunk is covered in trunk liner. the amp rack does have some black laminate under the amps but that stuff is cheap. Midranges are in the stock dash locations. Tweets in apillars. Radio in factory location. Subs in rear deck. The only thing "custom" about my car would be the kickpanels that hold the midbass drivers. Other than that, my car is the definition of a street vehicle. 

Install really isn't that big of a deal. You win/lose on SQ. I've never done anything to my car for looks. If it doesn't improve the SQ I don't waste money on it. I compete because I love music. 

With that philosphy I have won a world championship in all 3 organizatins (IASCA, MECA and USACi) so it can be done.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^Also, I have nothing motorized. There is zero fiberglass used in my car. My amps are chrome--I'll spot you that--but they come that way from the factory, I didn't have them chromed. I do have some neon under my amps--never been on, never even mentioned it to the judge. It is white neon and unless you are in a field in the middle of the country with no lights anywhere around---you can't see it anyway. So it isn't even part of my install book and no judge has ever seen it. So it doesn't exist.
> 
> My entire trunk is covered in trunk liner. the amp rack does have some black laminate under the amps but that stuff is cheap. Midranges are in the stock dash locations. Tweets in apillars. Radio in factory location. Subs in rear deck. The only thing "custom" about my car would be the kickpanels that hold the midbass drivers. Other than that, my car is the definition of a street vehicle.
> 
> Install really isn't that big of a deal. You win/lose on SQ. I've never done anything to my car for looks. If it doesn't improve the SQ I don't waste money on it. I compete because I love music.


And apparently the same kind of music that judges use to demo your system. 

How does it sound when you play some Polvo through it? [For that matter, how does _any_ system sound playing Polvo? ]

I'll tell you this much. I tune a "rock" system far differently than one that's reproducing unamplified music. And by "rock", I mean real rock music. Not that stuff that tries to get dynamics by asking the drummer to hit the cymbals harder.

I know that we don't like to admit this, but the musical content will (at least to a certain extent) dictate your design strategy.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> I know that we don't like to admit this, but the musical content will (at least to a certain extent) dictate your design strategy.


It has to.

I say this to the guys and they look at me like I'm nuts; oh wait I am nuts.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> I know that we don't like to admit this, but the musical content will (at least to a certain extent) dictate your design strategy.


I don't think it's the music as much as how one listens to the music. I've seen PLENTY of rigs that will play the finest nuances of acoustic/classical but will just still SHRED out the metal. 

I shoot for the maximum listening level that will make me happy 90-95% of the time knowing I can't afford the last 5-10%. And go from there.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

chad said:


> I don't think it's the music as much as how one listens to the music. I've seen PLENTY of rigs that will play the finest nuances of acoustic/classical but will just still SHRED out the metal.
> 
> I shoot for the maximum listening level that will make me happy 90-95% of the time knowing I can't afford the last 5-10%. And go from there.


I don't know. In a car you're always making decisions about the number of drivers per channel, the speaker configurations, types of speakers, filter settings, and so forth. A high output hip-hop system will often look different from a high output "noise-rock" system, which will often look different from a system primarily playing John Mayer and Jack Johnson. That's not to say you can't create a system that will make all three sound good...but to get it to the next level, you typically have to make compromises somewhere.

Otherwise, we'd all be doing the same thing.


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## Grim0013 (Nov 4, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> ^ Welcome to MECA! Check there for shows.
> 
> MECA has a huge number of shows in the Virginia area. (and in the Eastern/central portion of the country). Overall MECA has a huge group of shows though. You can find some on just about any weekend if you live in that area.


You sure about that? Looking at MECA's events schedule, they have no shows in VA or MD at all. One in PA and a handful in NC. I am hoping I am either missing something, or they just haven't finished the 2009 schedule, as I really would like to start attending events for both competition and socializing with other people into this hobby.


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## suby666 (Jan 14, 2009)

too much $$


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^season has not even started yet. Give it some time. Look at last year's events. Look how many were in the virginia area. Those will be back. 


As to demoing my car. I don't know who Polvo is, but here is megalomaniac demoing my car with Metallica:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events/50192-usaci-finals-photos-2.html


I'll be the first to admit I don't demo with rap music. The crossover points on the midbass are to low to do what rap music fans want out of a system. I also don't listen to rap that often---so regardless of competition it wouldn't play that music well. 

I don't make a single change to my system between competitions and daily listening. Not a single change.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I missed the "and apparently the same kind of music the judges use to demo your system".

I can tell you I never grab a judging CD on a normal day to day basis to just listen to it. I hate the MECA cd with a passion. The IASCA CD is worse. The USACI Focal disk is very good though. The other USACi disk I hate also. 

I listen to music ranging from the Allman Brothers, to Metallica, to country music, etc. I listen to music. I don't listen to very heavy metal music. I rarely listen to rap (and if I do it is old school stuff like public enemy). 

Competition has broaden my musical taste though. I have seveal CDs that people would consider "test" music or "judging" music that I would have never bought prior to competing that I actually enjoy listening to now. Jennifer Warnes comes to mind immediately. Never heard of her before I started competing, and now I own several of her CDs. There is music on the Tulsa disk that was amazing that I would have never heard of it were not for competing. Chris Owens gave me a CD he got from Nick Wingate at USACi finals--it has some incredible music on it---wouldn't have known about them if it wasn't for competing.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I went back and looked at MECA shows in virginia for last year:

680 3/9/2008 MDA Crank It Up Competition Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
655 3/22/2008 Spring Showdown Car Show & Sound-off Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
650 4/12/2008 Crutchfield's Spring Bass Off I Harrisonburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
646 4/13/2008 Crutchfield's Spring Bass Off II Charlottsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
703 4/19/2008 Tidewaters Audio Excess Virginia Beach VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
705 5/3/2008 Sounds Unlimited Extreme Sound Fest Martinsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
715 5/24/2008 The Pound School for Higher SPL Pound VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
721 6/22/2008 Wholesale Summer Sound-off Fredericksburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
737 6/27/2008 Crank It & Glow It  Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
647 7/12/2008 Crutchfield's Summer Showdown I Harrisonburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
648 7/13/2008 Crutchfield's Summer Showdown II Charlottsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
723 7/26/2008 VA Sound Challenge - Saturday Thunder Collinsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
740 9/1/2008 End of Summer Super Bash Chesapeake VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
754 9/6/2008 Audiotronics/Empire Fall Sound-off Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
755 9/7/2008 Express Outlet Fall Sound-off Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
649 10/4/2008 Crutchfield's Fall Bass Blast I Harrisonburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
651 10/5/2008 Crutchfield's Fall Bass Blast II Charlottsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results 
764 10/19/2008 Virginia Soundfest - State Finals Fredericksburg VA 3 Event Details Event Results 



So give it some time. Those will be back. John Vroom is the coordinator for that area. He puts on a helluva good show and is a great judge.


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

Greetings!!!

As one of IASCA's training judges of the past, let me address the concern about " the music we use to judge with". Music is music!!! We all love music and what it can do for us. Each of us has a certain amount of passion for what ever genre we like. Whether its Metallica, Beethoven, or Shania Twain we all have something in common: its the music!!!!!!

When we judge a vehicle, each judge is listening to the same cues you are listening to when you are listening to your vehicle when you are commuting each and every day. Timbre, ambience, depth of stage, dynamics, etc... We are all after the same thing. When we look at the score sheet and start to actually apply a score, it is based on those criteria. Each of the judges that are in this are there because they LOVE THE MUSIC!!! We are all that way and most of us are professionals in the industry in some way.

Our judging staff in Tulsa that Andy has talked about was comprised of many different professionals in the audio industry. Our head judge, Mr. James Feltenberger is a professional trumpet player and conductor and has a Masters in Music. Dr. Douglas Winker has a Phd. from the University of Texas in Audio Physics and amongst his duties at his work is designing Anheohic Chambers! Chris and Melissa Owens are the owners and designers of Clarity Cable. Clarity is recognized as one of the premiere interconnect and speaker manufactures in the world! I can go on, but suffice it say, we take this job very seriously and it is our job to help each and everyone of you to better your system. Going to a show like this is to have a good time, meet your fellow audiophiles who enjoy this hobby and to make new friends. 

As to why you don't see many tracks on a judging disc that would have Rap or Hip Hop or Metal is that those genre's of music require amplification of some kind. That means that we, as judges, would be subjected to what the audio engineer designed. Now, most of the commercially available music today is engineered to be played on an Ipod-type device or on the radio of a car. So, that means certain frequencies are either enhanced or reduced so the crappy earbuds or crappy OEM speakers can sound ok. Is that really going to reveal how a properly designed audio system should perform? I don't think so! What we are looking for is a properly balanced system that will reproduce every type of music with extreme detail and dynamics!!! And if you have balanced the system properly, it will play ANY TYPE of music at any level extremely well!!!

Most of the music we use is non-amplified music. Why? Because a trumpet is a trumpet is a trumpet. Whether its Harry James or Harry Broussard, it is still a trumpet. It may sound like crap when Mr. Broussard plays it, but it still has all of the proper characteristics of a trumpet. Piano, Stand-up bass, Drum kits, Acoustic Guitar, Female Vocals, Male Vocals, Choirs, Pipe Organs, etc... These instruments and many more, are extremely difficult to reproduce with tactile feel and definition and DYNAMICS!!!! A pipe organ is the single most difficult instrument for any system to reproduce, and will tax any system to its limits. The amount of power necessary to reproduce 16hz while maintaining control over the sub/bass/midrange/tweeters is extraordinary!!! Using recordings that are in the genre, as well as other acoustic only recordings, allow us to evaluate how well the systems can perform. Most audiophile lables, ( MFSL, Reference Recordings, JVC's XRCD, FIM etc...), use minimalist approaches when they are recording music. One or two mikes, one digital or analog tape machine and minimalist approaches to engineering in which the music is recorded in one day, LIVE!!! This recording vs. a 64 track tape machine or use of a hard drive to store each individual instrument or voice and then mix them together over a period of days or weeks, and is then subjected to what an engineer thinks it should sound like, is why we use the audiophile lables CD's when we are judging. We as judges push the systems to the extreme so that we may determine an overall winner. That is our job as a judge. We are there so that you may have the opportunity to learn from us and call upon our experience in reproducing music better so that you may enjoy your system more!!!! That is what we as judges are all about. If we were to judge using compressed, over-engineered commercial crap, we couldn't do our jobs!!! 

That is why I urge those of you who enjoy your systems to come out to a show and have some fun! Its really what the show is all about. You may disagree with the judges, and thats fine. I am willing to bet that you will learn something from that judge that they heard that you have never considered when you were evaluating your system. I did when I was competing and I am still learning more today. A very wise man told me that " Wisdom comes from the council of many!!". If you take this advice and apply it to our systems, we just might learn more and make a lot of new friends. Isn't that what music is all about???


My two cents!

Nick Wingate Jr.
National Sales Training Co-ordinator
National Product Training Co-ordinator
Focal/Steg America


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Our judging staff in Tulsa that Andy has talked about was comprised of many different professionals in the audio industry. Our head judge, Mr. James Feltenberger is a professional trumpet player and conductor and has a Masters in Music.


now THAT is a judge I would like to see in the ranks!



Mitsu1grn said:


> Dr. Douglas Winker has a Phd. from the University of Texas in Audio Physics and amongst his duties at his work is designing Anheohic Chambers!


Very cool, still like the first one better.



Mitsu1grn said:


> Chris and Melissa Owens are the owners and designers of Clarity Cable. Clarity is recognized as one of the premiere interconnect and speaker manufactures in the world!


I have assembled miles upon miles of cable that carry audio signals both in analog format and digital format including copper and fiber, those credentials do not make me eligible because I could be stone deaf and still make damn fine cables


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

I liked the number of exclamation points used.

reminds me of a 5 year old on mountain dew.


Competition don't exist here anymore, the ones I went to i didn't enjoy, and I'm a little old to rip my DD car apart to take pictures or modify something I'm happy with to satisfy some judge or arbitrary rulebook. 
Like techflexing a 3' power wire that is riding in a factory rubber coated channel or drilling a bunch of rust holes into a solid bodied car to put screwdown clamps.

The DIYMA G2Gs sound like something that is more my speed and interest. A lot like Friday nights used to be back in the early 90s.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Attack eagle said:


> A lot like Friday nights used to be back in the early 90s.


Ahh the memories


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

This is the exact opposite of the question of this thread, but I think it applies


The reason I do compete is the music. That and the people. That's really the only reasons to do this. 

After I work on a system for weeks/months/years I have to much pride and personal investment in it to sometimes truly hear it. I can't tell you the number of times I've tuned my vehicles, went to a show thinking my vehicle was ON only to have it pointed out that I had some serious issues. 

The better judges will sit with you in your car after judging and tell you what they heard. You can sit there with them and listen to what they are talking about. Sometimes I disagree. Other times (and this is the majority of the time) I hear what they are talking about. I fix that and then move on to other issues. 

An impartial set of ears that doesn't have a thing invested in my car helps me make my car better for me (my daily drive). That is what makes competition so great.

Winning is fun. Losing sucks. Getting in a vehicle that has improved throughout the day and driving home---that is the best thing in car audio. Hanging out with people who are as crazy as you are about music and their cars---that is very close second to the music. 

If I didn't love music so much, I'd be drag racing.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Attack eagle said:


> The DIYMA G2Gs sound like something that is more my speed and interest. A lot like Friday nights used to be back in the early 90s.


Yeah, and you probably will get some input instead of an attitude of what I'm doing is a secret.


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

I will debate the assumption that creating speaker cable or interconnect professionally for a living does not qualify you to judge. Those two have over 45 years in the audio industry and have some of the most critical ears around. Voicing cable isn't easy, especially when its a new design. Chris and Melissa have judged USACi finals and IASCA finals numerous times and are very well respected in the industry. It would do anyone a world of good to have either of them evaluate your system and ask for their help.

Nick Wingate


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Voicing cable isn't easy,
> Nick Wingate


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

I agree, voicing cable must be damn near impossible.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I missed the "and apparently the same kind of music the judges use to demo your system".
> 
> I can tell you I never grab a judging CD on a normal day to day basis to just listen to it. I hate the MECA cd with a passion. The IASCA CD is worse. The USACI Focal disk is very good though. The other USACi disk I hate also.
> 
> ...


That's cool. But just because a song isn't on a test disc doesn't mean it's not similarly recorded and in a similar genre.

Audio sucks because a lot of us are trying to do different things to facilitate goals that are inconsistent with one another. Or maybe that's why audio is good.

My point was that there are lots of different genres of music, and even within each genre very different problems that need to be addressed when designing a system to play everything you like. If we were to examine the musical tastes of the people around here you would see that it varies considerably. You seemed to acknowledge that when talking about rap. So we're probably in agreement.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> When we judge a vehicle, each judge is listening to the same cues you are listening to when you are listening to your vehicle when you are commuting each and every day. Timbre, ambience, depth of stage, dynamics, etc... We are all after the same thing.


Um...no, we're REALLY not. And therein lies the problem with the competition crowd.


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

We really aren't listening for the same thing? Would you care to elaborate on that? As someone who listens to a wide range of different types of music, I tend to think we are all listening for the same types of cues. 

What would be an example of what you are listening for that I wouldn't be?


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

For those of you who think that interconnect and speaker cable do not matter or cannot be voiced, I will defer any further comments and refer you to Andy. Andy was at USACi finals in Dallas and was invited to the owner of MAXXHORNS loudspeaker company. There, a demonstration was made on just how cable effects overall presentation and timbre of any system. 

Andy, would you care to elaborate for our friends?


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

86mr2 said:


> I agree, voicing cable must be damn near impossible.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


And on the 8th day, God said "let there be cable" and there was cable. And God looked over the cable, and saw that it was good.

Then the devil took the cable, stamped Monster on it and sold it for 12x what it was worth.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> For those of you who think that interconnect and speaker cable do not matter or cannot be voiced, I will defer any further comments and refer you to Andy. Andy was at USACi finals in Dallas and was invited to the owner of MAXXHORNS loudspeaker company. There, a demonstration was made on just how cable effects overall presentation and timbre of any system.
> 
> Andy, would you care to elaborate for our friends?


I voice speaker cable every day...........















By placing a passive network in line with it 

All of us were born... but many of us weren't born yesterday.


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

We ain't talking about Monster Cable......that is not the High End.


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

Suffice to say, most of you have not had the opportunity to hear what cable, that is matched to the system can do. Granted, I have had the opportunity to hear quarter million dollar rigs that is extremely revealing. With that level of resolution available, it is easy to hear. I encourage those of you who have the time to seek our a high end home audio store that does two channel stereo, ( preferably with tube gear), and ask for a demonstration. Ask about the different levels of cable they have and ask what they are using and why. You will probably get a demo of what cable can do to a system.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Suffice to say, most of you have not had the opportunity to hear what cable, that is matched to the system can do. Granted, I have had the opportunity to hear quarter million dollar rigs that is extremely revealing. With that level of resolution available, it is easy to hear. I encourage those of you who have the time to seek our a high end home audio store that does two channel stereo, ( preferably with tube gear), and ask for a demonstration. Ask about the different levels of cable they have and ask what they are using and why. You will probably get a demo of what cable can do to a system.


Well, yes, monetarily I DO indeed sit behind some expensive audio gear, in fact a quarter mil is a drop in the bucket for some of the consoles I work on/with.

But the fact remains that IF a cable alters a signal in ANY-WAY from point A to point B then it's level of *defectiveness* can be measured in it's level of altercation. And I can assure you that we go thru stringent processes in the recording environment to assure the most inert electrical characteristics for interconnection throughout a facility. I can also assure you that 99% of recording facilities have their gear wired with cable that the "nose high" audiophiles will determine as inferior based on price alone as they completely disregard electrical specifications.

This conversation has enlightened me on another reason why I don't compete.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Suffice to say, most of you have not had the opportunity to hear what cable, that is matched to the system can do. Granted, I have had the opportunity to hear quarter million dollar rigs that is extremely revealing. With that level of resolution available, it is easy to hear. I encourage those of you who have the time to seek our a high end home audio store that does two channel stereo, ( preferably with tube gear), and ask for a demonstration. Ask about the different levels of cable they have and ask what they are using and why. You will probably get a demo of what cable can do to a system.



wELL u kno down hear in tennussee we ain't got much money so we use bubby's 6x9's in his camaro as a refrance, kawz he won the best o show at the tractor pull show in shine last yeer so we konwz it soundz good. He uses kraco oxigen free cables dems gotta be good.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

chad said:


> This conversation has enlightened me on another reason why I don't compete.


Boy you got that right!!!


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

ditto... green mitsu. get a clue.

the level of resolution is in your HEAD... planted firmly between your ears.
or perhaps on your case, firmly between your salesperson's ears.

I'm with chad...


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## Grim0013 (Nov 4, 2008)

Is this fairly representative, geographically? I was hoping for more shows in the DC area, honestly. I can't say that driving 200+ miles one-way is very appealing. Still, better than what I had been previously expecting. Why is it that there never seem to be shows near major cities? Southern VA seems to have tons of shows, but come up to DC and there ain't ****. Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, but whatever. I'll take what I can get, I guess.

Thanks again for the info, Andy.




Andy Jones said:


> 680 3/9/2008 MDA Crank It Up Competition Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results


250 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 655 3/22/2008 Spring Showdown Car Show & Sound-off Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results


250 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 650 4/12/2008 Crutchfield's Spring Bass Off I Harrisonburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results


135 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 646 4/13/2008 Crutchfield's Spring Bass Off II Charlottsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results


120 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 703 4/19/2008 Tidewaters Audio Excess Virginia Beach VA 2 Event Details Event Results


200 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 705 5/3/2008 Sounds Unlimited Extreme Sound Fest Martinsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results


300 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 715 5/24/2008 The Pound School for Higher SPL Pound VA 2 Event Details Event Results


425 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 721 6/22/2008 Wholesale Summer Sound-off Fredericksburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results


50 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 737 6/27/2008 Crank It & Glow It Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results


250 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 647 7/12/2008 Crutchfield's Summer Showdown I Harrisonburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results


135 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 648 7/13/2008 Crutchfield's Summer Showdown II Charlottsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results


120 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 723 7/26/2008 VA Sound Challenge - Saturday Thunder Collinsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results


300 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 740 9/1/2008 End of Summer Super Bash Chesapeake VA 2 Event Details Event Results


200 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 754 9/6/2008 Audiotronics/Empire Fall Sound-off Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results


250 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 755 9/7/2008 Express Outlet Fall Sound-off Roanoke VA 2 Event Details Event Results


250 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 649 10/4/2008 Crutchfield's Fall Bass Blast I Harrisonburg VA 2 Event Details Event Results


135 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 651 10/5/2008 Crutchfield's Fall Bass Blast II Charlottsville VA 2 Event Details Event Results


120 miles



Andy Jones said:


> 764 10/19/2008 Virginia Soundfest - State Finals Fredericksburg VA 3 Event Details Event Results


50 miles


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## Mitsu1grn (Sep 22, 2008)

All i can say it this. For those of you who doubt, I understand. It is completely subjective and only if you have the opportunity to hear a test will you be enlightened. If it was all smoke and mirrors, there wouldn't be a 'cable industry' in the high-end world. Those people spend tremendous amounts of money on their systems and they are very finicky about what will work and what will not. Ray Kimber of Kimber Kable was the first to actually convince me there is a difference. Ray's designs are based on science, not magic. Stephen Hill of Straight Wire did as well. When any of you have the opportunity to audition cable made by either of these fine gentleman, please do so in your own systems. I feel you will be quite surprised. Until then, we will all simply agree to disagree.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> Blindfolding doesn't work because you have to be able to write numbers on a scoresheet. You can't have two people in there because having the second person in the car effects the sound of the car. If you do two seat judging, that is fine, but then both judges would have to be blindfolded and then again you have no one to write numbers down.
> 
> 99% of the judges I have anyway get into the car, grab the remote and close their eyes. They only open them to write down scores. I've never had a judge ask me what was in the car before he/she judged it and you can't see any speakers in my car. All they can see is the HU. Everything else is completely hidden. Doesn't hurt me.


Nice try, but no. Blind folks can do a heck of a lot more than keep score. Don't tell me that just because you have a blindfold on you are useless to the world. I can think of a million ways to make the score sheet work.

Compare that to the need for unbiased testing: judge cannot see logos/brand affiliation, your age, type of car, whether tweeters are mounted on the dash to "lift the stage" , install picks to make sure you are using 3 inch thick billet to mount 3/4 tweeter.



Mitsu1grn said:


> Greetings!!!
> 
> As one of IASCA's training judges of the past, let me address the concern about " the music we use to judge with". Music is music!!! We all love music and what it can do for us. Each of us has a certain amount of passion for what ever genre we like. Whether its Metallica, Beethoven, or Shania Twain we all have something in common: its the music!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I can easily scrap half of my drivers, namely midbass and subs and still be able to reproduce your music cds in a stationary car, with a flat eq tune. In fact I can do it better by using a simple 6.5 coax placed on the dash. While that might win a medal it would be terrifying for my daily driver tunes. Why?

Because I play that devil music called electronica. It's all synthesized, hadly has any vocals and requires loads and loads of midbass. It is why musical selection is so important. Heck some DJ.s spin only on vinyl, now that's an abomination by any competition music standard from your view, yet it is single most important build constraint for my car. 



Mitsu1grn said:


> Those two have over 45 years in the audio industry and have some of the most critical ears around. Voicing cable isn't easy, especially when its a new design.


And to think 45 years in the industry... 

...and that is why I want you blindfolded.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Mitsu1grn said:


> If it was all smoke and mirrors, there wouldn't be a 'cable industry' in the high-end world.




This is a very naive statement.
Do you realize just how much money is made off marketing? Infomercials, commercials, billboards, ads in magazines, etc, etc… all of this is marketing. 


I'm not even talking about cables. I don't really care about sound of them. That statement alone just doesn't make sense. You could say the same for anything and that's what I think is wrong with it.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Mitsu1grn said:


> If it was all smoke and mirrors, there wouldn't be....


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## Grim0013 (Nov 4, 2008)

Attack eagle said:


> ditto... green mitsu. get a clue.
> 
> the level of resolution is in your HEAD... planted firmly between your ears.
> or perhaps on your case, firmly between your salesperson's ears.
> ...


Does this really need to be argued again?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> Chris and Melissa Owens are the owners and designers of Clarity Cable.


Wire "designers!" Dude, are you high? You sound like it. 



Mitsu1grn said:


> For those of you who think that interconnect and speaker cable do not matter or cannot be voiced, I will defer any further comments and refer you to Andy. Andy was at USACi finals in Dallas and was invited to the owner of MAXXHORNS loudspeaker company. There, a demonstration was made on just how cable effects overall presentation and timbre of any system.


Aww, aren't you _cute_ when you're high!



Mitsu1grn said:


> Suffice to say, most of you have not had the opportunity to hear what cable, that is matched to the system can do.


Spurious appeal to audiophool snobbery #1. 

So what are you on, anyway? Must be some good herb!



Mitsu1grn said:


> Granted, I have had the opportunity to hear quarter million dollar rigs that is extremely revealing.


Presumably, someone with actual such experience would also have the education to know that the plural form of the verb "to be" is "are."

Unless s/he was high, of course. Then I suppose such things may not be as evident.



Mitsu1grn said:


> Ask about the different levels of cable they have and ask what they are using and why. You will probably get a demo of what cable can do to a system.


And while you're at it, why don't you ask that nice man Mr. Madoff for investment advice? After all, if he were running a Ponzi scheme how could he possibly have gotten so many very smart people to invest with him?

Unless they were all high, too, perhaps.



Mitsu1grn said:


> All i can say it this. For those of you who doubt, I understand. It is completely subjective and only if you have the opportunity to hear a test will you be enlightened.


Appeal to audiophool snobbery #2.

What, pray tell, makes you think that many (perhaps even most) of us haven't heard systems basically as revealing as music reproduction chains get, but don't do so many drugs that our brains are too addled to recognize when somebody's trying to con us? 



Mitsu1grn said:


> If it was all smoke and mirrors, there wouldn't be a 'cable industry' in the high-end world. Those people spend tremendous amounts of money on their systems and they are very finicky about what will work and what will not. Ray Kimber of Kimber Kable was the first to actually convince me there is a difference. Ray's designs are based on science, not magic. Stephen Hill of Straight Wire did as well.


You need a better dealer. I hear George Cardas sells the best herb. Though some prefer Bruce Brisson's.

I understand that one of those gentlemen sells a special variety that's pissed on by Jonathan Scull before packaging. That, obviously, commands a handsome premium over the regular stuff. I think that's Cardas, because Brisson's top stuff is fed to a deaf retard who wears actual golden ears while he's eating it (Harry Pearson is who the rumor mill thinks it is, but MIT keeps the identity of the retard a closely-guarded secret, kind of like the Coke formula) and then painstakingly collected by hand from his droppings.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Mitsu1grn said:


> We really aren't listening for the same thing? Would you care to elaborate on that? As someone who listens to a wide range of different types of music, I tend to think we are all listening for the same types of cues.
> 
> What would be an example of what you are listening for that I wouldn't be?


Well, I've already spent almost the entire thread talking about that, so let me try taking a different approach...

If I were to ask you to rank the following in order of importance, would you be able to?

* Imaging
* Depth
* Various tonal concerns (eg. warmth, detail, etc)
* Phase coherence
* Volume (as in spatial volume, not amplitude)
* Output capabilities
* Punchy-ness
* Low end extension

Do you think everyone else would share the same ranking?

Maybe you might reply: "But we should strive to achieve ALL of those things!" But that's an unrealistic goal for two reasons. First, not everyone shares the same pursuit of the QUALITY of those attributes. For example, maybe I prefer more low end output to emulate, for example, a live amplified performance, whereas you might strive for a flatter transfer function? Or maybe I prefer warmth whereas you prefer more detail?

Secondly, in the car audio environment in particular, we often make design decisions based on the intended goals -- specifically, based on our rankings above. For example, I may be striving for a high output system with a particular emphasis on 80-250Hz. To achieve that goal, it might require dedicated midbass drivers that don't fare so well in the upper midrange, in which case I may decide that a three-way front stage is the best approach. However, choosing this option could potentially lead to more issues having to do with phase coherence and FR irregularities around the crossover points.

Another example might be if you're looking for a lot of high end sparkle whereas someone else isn't. You might choose to incorporate a tweeter in your setup, whereas someone else might find the benefits of a widebander extending flat to only about 15kHz worth it.

We don't all have the same goals. If we did, we'd all have the same systems.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Could not find a single white paper written by the folks at Kimber on their website.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> I'm sorry but I can easily scrap half of my drivers, namely midbass and subs and still be able to reproduce your music cds in a stationary car, with a flat eq tune. In fact I can do it better by using a simple 6.5 coax placed on the dash. While that might win a medal it would be terrifying for my daily driver tunes. Why?
> 
> Because I play that devil music called electronica.


Hahaha...Can I put this in my sig?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Mitsu1grn said:


> *If it was all smoke and mirrors, there wouldn't be a 'cable industry' in the high-end world*. Those people spend tremendous amounts of money on their systems and they are very finicky about what will work and what will not.


Look within your own writing and you'll see why there is a cable industry in the high end world.

I spent 6 months building speakers for a company that sells thier budget line home towers for $15,000; *budget line*. I have a set. I spent $800 getting the Audax drivers to make them myself. *Smoke & Mirrors! *

*As long as there is a fool willing to spend their money there will be a little bit smarter fool willing to take it.*

:icon_bs:


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

On the cables. I have never believed in a difference in cables. Absolutely did not believe. I've seen cables change the signal and they generally had in line "boxes" that I attributed to the change. MIT cables come to mind. Whether or not that is a good thing is up the listener and buyer. But I could point to what was causing the change.

In Dallas at USACI finals, I heard Chris and Melissa Owens cables. I did not expect to hear a change. Honestly I didn't care either way. They are home audio cables, I'm a car audio person---didn't effect my life one way or the other. I went to be entertained expecting a snake oil demonstration.

We listened to some home towers. Had one 5 1/4" speaker in a tower about 6 feet tall.The speaker played from 20hz to 20khz. It was a bit light below about 40hz, but it did play it. Impressed the crap out of me. We spent a good hour just listening to the towers. I honestly thought they had forgotten about the cable swap test.

They took one cable off, passed it around, and put another cable on. Played the system again---it was like a viel was taken off the speakers. The difference was dramatic. The swapped the cables back and passed the new cable around. Again a difference was painfully obvious. The new cable looked just like the old cable. Physically there really wasn't a difference that I noticed (there may been something, but it wasn't much). There were no boxes in line. It was just a cable. About 4ga in size, but just a cable. 

Do I know what was going on inside that cable? Nope. Did I whip out a TEF analyzer and measure the cables--nope. Do I fully understand cable design--nope. Did I hear a difference--yep. Have I bought a single cable (or any product) from the Owens--nope (I don't do home audio). Have they tried to sell me anything--nope. Did they ever ask me to buy anything that night--nope. Do I know a single person into home audio that would be a customer of theirs? Nope. Basically I'm pretty damn useless to that company, but I heard a difference--and it was dramatic. 

Does it make me want to test cables myself? Absolutely. Will I be doing that in the future? As soon as I can figure out how to do it without spending 100 million dollars on products that I won't be using if I can't hear a difference--absolutely. 


If you would have asked me before I went to that house if there was a difference in wires (outside cables that obviously have the black boxes on them)--I would have said no. I won't ever say that again unless I have personally tested and measured them. Until I do it for myself, I'm not going to discount those people who have tested cables. Seems pretty ignorant of me to do so now.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

To those of you bashing Nick (Mitsu1grn), it really isn't necessary. You can disagree with him--that is fine. We all have our opinions. But calling him stupid, asking him if he is "high", etc. is really uncalled for. He is more passionate about music and helping people than just about anyone else I have met in the industry. he not only helps his own team at shows, he helps everyone (people who compete against his team). 

Instead of attacking him and being rude, why not soak up some of his experience. He's been doing this for at least a little while. You don't have to agree with what he is saying. But listen to it, think about it, test it out, and then respond. Don't just jump down his throat. If you think he is coming at this from a different angle than you---that's fine. You don't have to personally attack someone because they don't think the same way you do.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Do I know what was going on inside that cable? Nope. Did I whip out a TEF analyzer and measure the cables--nope. Do I fully understand cable design--nope. Did I hear a difference--yep. Have I bought a single cable (or any product) from the Owens--nope (I don't do home audio). Have they tried to sell me anything--nope. Did they ever ask me to buy anything that night--nope. Do I know a single person into home audio that would be a customer of theirs? Nope. Basically I'm pretty damn useless to that company, but I heard a difference--and it was dramatic.


Fair enough, absolutely fair enough. 












I can certainly MAKE 2 cables sound different, especially with the shell real-estate that would be needed for that diameter cable.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Hahaha...Can I put this in my sig?


lol sure. QFT FTW!


Andy Jones said:


> Does it make me want to test cables myself? Absolutely. Will I be doing that in the future? As soon as I can figure out how to do it without spending 100 million dollars on products that I won't be using if I can't hear a difference--absolutely.


Again, so easy. I tested 5ft of 16ga Monster XLN cable on my PA floorstanders vs. the 25ft of 22ga cable that came with a $100 Sony surround sound speaker set. 

Total dollars required: $10 on monster cable 
Time: 15 minutes of listening and 1 minute to swap cables
Blindfold: $0
Conclusion: Priceless! I save lots of $ on cables every install!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> On the cables. I have never believed in a difference in cables. Absolutely did not believe. I've seen cables change the signal and they generally had in line "boxes" that I attributed to the change. MIT cables come to mind. Whether or not that is a good thing is up the listener and buyer. But I could point to what was causing the change.
> 
> In Dallas at USACI finals, I heard Chris and Melissa Owens cables. I did not expect to hear a change. Honestly I didn't care either way. They are home audio cables, I'm a car audio person---didn't effect my life one way or the other. I went to be entertained expecting a snake oil demonstration.
> 
> ...


One of the cables they were using was probably defective. You can't improve on perfection.

Of course, I guess you could beat their high end cables if you just soldered the terminals of the two pieces of equipment together.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> lol sure. QFT FTW!


Bah! The damned signature rules wouldn't let me...


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I don't consider monster cable high end---on anything. Never been a fan of the construciton of their equipment. 

Guys, I don't think you get it. When I say I didn't believe in cables--I really didn't believe in cables. Until somewhat recently, the RCA cables in my car were primary wire twisted with a drill and soldered to some RCA barrels. that was it. 

I am in the process of replacing those for various reasons and am now looking at higher end cables because of what I heard. Will I get the opportunity to test stuff in the cost point of the Owens stuff--nope. I absolutely can't afford it. I am looking at getting some higher end stuff to test. I still have my primary wire cables. I will use what I hear a difference in. I'll sell the high end stuff if I don't hear a difference. I won't lose money on it--forums around this big internet allow that to happen. 

I don't put stuff in my car that doesn't make it sound better. It isn't worth screwing up what I have if it doesn't improve anything. 

Look beyond car audio stuff---meaning forget about monster cable, phoenix gold, knukonceptz, etc. Buy a few cables and just listen. Put them on ebay when you are done. Will you hear a difference? hell I don't know. Hopefully I will soon. But as of today, I don't have a clue whether you will or not. It is worth my time, money and effort to find out though.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> We listened to some home towers. Had one 5 1/4" speaker in a tower about 6 feet tall.


You really think that you could hear any seriously subtle audible differences through ****ty speakers? Try something with actual cone area next time. Then you'll hear something besides dynamic compression.




Andy Jones said:


> To those of you bashing Nick (Mitsu1grn), it really isn't necessary. You can disagree with him--that is fine. We all have our opinions. But calling him stupid, asking him if he is "high", etc. is really uncalled for.


Sorry, but anyone who "believes" that wires make an audible difference is either a con man himself (trying to peddle the ****) or simply stupid beyond words.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^yea you don't know what speaker I'm referring to. this isn't a dayton 5 1/4. it had a motor the size of a coffee can. It had plenty of volume in a home audio set up. It was fine.


I really don't get why you have to attack people. Can you not get your point across without doing that?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I don't consider monster cable high end---on anything. Never been a fan of the construciton of their equipment.
> 
> Guys, I don't think you get it. When I say I didn't believe in cables--I really didn't believe in cables. Until somewhat recently, the RCA cables in my car were primary wire twisted with a drill and soldered to some RCA barrels. that was it.
> 
> ...


What lengths would you need for your testing? I always have some "scrap" leftover from installs and would be willing to contribute to the cause, you supply your own ends.

I have a college that's doing the same and he's got some of my 61801... but its orange, and frankly I don't care for the sound of orange cables... I kid, I kid  I'll post up his results, he's having a helluva time trying to find a capacitance meter that's accurate that low though


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

imjustjason and DS-21, you guys made my day!


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

what brands do you have?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> what brands do you have?


Normally use Gepco 61801 and the belden equiv. I may also be able to scrounge up some canare and mogami, the canare is quad, don't care for adding the capacitance of that though for single channel runs unbalanced. The mogami is Shielded twisted pair.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I don't consider monster cable high end---on anything. Never been a fan of the construciton of their equipment.
> 
> Guys, I don't think you get it. When I say I didn't believe in cables--I really didn't believe in cables. Until somewhat recently, the RCA cables in my car were primary wire twisted with a drill and soldered to some RCA barrels. that was it.
> 
> ...


My point was that anecdotal evidence doesn't make for a convincing demonstration. In order for your results to have any weight with others, some sort of mechanistic explanation should be offered. It's a shame that you weren't able to measure what was causing the difference you heard, since you were in a great situation to try to discover what was going on.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^yea you don't know what speaker I'm referring to.


And I don't give a damn. One doesn't ask a pea-shooter to do an ICBM's work.

All you're doing with the last sentence is causing people to question your hearing acuity. Unless you were listening to them in the extreme nearfield, a 5.25" woofer just isn't going to cut it in the lower mids.



Andy Jones said:


> I really don't get why you have to attack people. Can you not get your point across without doing that?


My point is simply that people who continue to believe the earth is flat after someone's sailed all the way around it are idiots. 

If that's attacking people, fine. I can live with that.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> what brands do you have?


Of what, wire?

Well, my home system has all kinds of stuff connecting the boxes, ranging from the molded plastic stuff that came with my Velodyne SMS-1 to Monoprice and Dayton stuff, to Esoteric Audio Artus interconnects that were $600/m new and have beautiful locking RCA ends that look like they were machined in the Patek Philippe [edit] works. 

Strung between the binding posts is pretty much all Esoteric Audio Isopath, 14AWG solid core. Kind of annoying stuff, really. Stranded is much easier to work with. Was probably horrendously expensive new, but I bought it because someone was selling it on eBay for a whole lot less than the Carol in-wall stuff at Parts Express.

You know what? It all sounds the same. You'll hear more of a difference by moving one of my mains 5mm in any direction.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ he was talking to chad, I believe.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> And I don't give a damn. One doesn't ask a pea-shooter to do an ICBM's work.
> 
> All you're doing with the last sentence is causing people to question your hearing acuity. Unless you were listening to them in the extreme nearfield, a 5.25" woofer just isn't going to cut it in the lower mids.
> 
> ...


enjoy your life.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> My point was that anecdotal evidence doesn't make for a convincing demonstration. In order for your results to have any weight with others, some sort of mechanistic explanation should be offered. It's a shame that you weren't able to measure what was causing the difference you heard, since you were in a great situation to try to discover what was going on.



Not going to disagree with that. All I have is what i heard. I heard enough to know that things can be different and it is worth testing. It is also worth not dismissing someone's opinions without actually testing yourself though. That is what I learned that night. Things are possible, and worthy of the time to test.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Well, I've already spent almost the entire thread talking about that, so let me try taking a different approach...
> 
> If I were to ask you to rank the following in order of importance, would you be able to?
> 
> ...


Bill Burton and myself once had a similar discussion to the above on what we look for when judging a car stereo... and our rankings were similar, but not identical. 

we also do not all share the same ears... not by a long shot.

how many people here can still hear 20k or higher? 19k or better? 18k?

How many people here have ears that are completely symmetrical and completely symmetrically placed on the sides of their head? (Mine are absolutely not)

How many people have a completely flat hearing response after years of working on cars, with power tools, in offices, or just life in general?

How many 'experienced' judges do you think have some hearing loss above 16k and so penalize cars that are not tuned to be over bright to those with less hearing loss? 
Especially the experienced ones who remember what the track is supposed to sound like to them... I've heard several cars that sounded worse but scored better with 'experienced' judges because of this. the changing of cd tracks every year or two helped (helps?) with this.



But the honest truth is that even if you say 'cello' you and I both may have very different ideas of what a cello is supposed to sound like. 

We need to get the exact cello, listen to it live, record it right then, on that stage, in that environment, with omnidirectional mics in stereo, burn it to cd with no production, and put it in each car and THEN we can decide whose is more accurate.

Perhaps yours sounds like a Strad, impressive! But what if it wasn't a Strad playing... a lot of that resonance and deep bottom end would be WRONG.

If it were and mine lacked that, then yours would be correct.

If you made every cello sound like a Strad it would be very wrong... but much more satisfying musically and sound a lot 'better'.  IF you reproduced it accurately... well it might not be as 'better' or 'impressive'. The only way cables can change the sound is by altering the analog signal... ain't gonna happen on the post amp side. very unlikely to happen on the front end either. Unless you had a modded set of cables (the old pre-snaked blind test).

I don;t believe a blind a/b tests unless two different people supplied the parts being tested, and a third person changed the cables physically, no source switching or button pushing.

But that is jsut me being a realist and cynic. Everyone who builds something is out to sell it, everyone who sells it is out to deceive you (or else they will go right out of business).


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I don't compete because neither of my cars or truck is finished yet. Maybe sometime this year.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> My point is simply that people who continue to believe the earth is flat after someone's sailed all the way around it are idiots.


DS do you mind if I use that for my sig? I never had one and I feel that is very worthy?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Not going to disagree with that. All I have is what i heard. I heard enough to know that things can be different and it is worth testing. It is also worth not dismissing someone's opinions without actually testing yourself though. That is what I learned that night. Things are possible, and worthy of the time to test.


True dat.


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

imjustjason said:


> DS do you mind if I use that for my sig? I never had one and I feel that is very worthy?


Yep, very sig-worthy.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> enjoy your life.


Oh, believe me, I do!



imjustjason said:


> DS do you mind if I use that for my sig? I never had one and I feel that is very worthy?


With my full blessing.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> With my full blessing.


Excellent!! Thanks.


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## SQ4ME2 (Jul 22, 2007)

i stopped competing when i met my wife and when I.A.S.C.A. became so full of crap with slap. no longer about sound but now about who can make themselves believe a production car can be a race car. oh by the way i did win 3 1st place trophies in the professional class sq 301 to 600 watt class and southern cali points champion in 2000


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## bigjae1976 (Jun 21, 2007)

I really don't compete but I have entered some SQ comps under USACI. Its fun but I don't take it seriously. 

Its just a pain since all of the shows are so far away. I'd rather spend my time on the track than doing sound comps anyway.


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## underPSI (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I would be afraid of others knowing exactly what I have in my truck and recognizing it later wanting to steal it all.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

underPSI said:


> Personally I would be afraid of others knowing exactly what I have in my truck and recognizing it later wanting to steal it all.


Them necrophiliacs ain't right I say.


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## Natural (Feb 5, 2009)

After 20 years, I've never had a system that I would consider actually done with no more improvements necessary to compete against others.


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## underPSI (Dec 2, 2008)

> Them necrophiliacs ain't right I say.


uhhhh, what?


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## djknowledge (Feb 12, 2009)

i dont because i dont have a garage and dont want my gear to get stolen.


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## Ryan from Ohio (Nov 4, 2006)

Im not an SPL guy. Im not the most fond of SPL installs either as most look horrible/cobbled together things. I do think the sheer loudness is impressive though.

Im more SQL for myself.

I dotn need a "judge" to criticize what I feel is just right for myself. Pick apart this or that, or to lower my score because I didnt use "security screws".

My system is by me for me. Like it or not, I dont care.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

this thread makes me want to compete


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Mitsu1grn said:


> For those of you who think that interconnect and speaker cable do not matter or cannot be voiced, I will defer any further comments and refer you to Andy. Andy was at USACi finals in Dallas and was invited to the owner of MAXXHORNS loudspeaker company. There, a demonstration was made on just how cable effects overall presentation and timbre of any system.
> 
> Andy, would you care to elaborate for our friends?


It'll really be a mind screw when you hear/see how well I seem to be doing in the judging lanes with my 12gauge lamp chord running into my "snicker" Passive crossover which outputs to my Install grade monster cable. No seriously though thats my rig. Although my lamp cable may be the reason for my slight drop in the midbass region...or it could be that they are 6.5's and don't exactly exhude 40hz without some EQ help..none the less..It's all the more reason for me to compete...to beat people with active systems and tons of money...with my passive system, some sweat...and some good ol boys who have some good ears to help me listen and tune.


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## strayed (Dec 5, 2008)

no money


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## Apex Rex (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't know of any competition's near my area. I would be interested in competing if I knew of where to start?


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## audiophile (Feb 17, 2009)

Wanted to but because I was working for an electronics retailer I had would have to compete in the pro class. I just didn't have the money to compete with that class. 
Now that Circuit is closed I can be in the am class and maybe start competing.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Don't know of any around me. I'd like to go to a few to check everything out and then decide if I wanted to compete or not.


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## tmieczkowski (Jan 5, 2009)

for you guys that are diehards and have never been to a show, let me tell you, the big ones are AWESOME!
i am in the middle of my e46 coupe build. when its done i will post pix. i figure maybe a few meca shows during the build fo rsome feedback and then off to the races
christ, ive been gone so long i dont even remember the sound q classes and categories.
just build it how you want and then see where you fit.
pro, unlimited power here
i cant wait to compete again!


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## tmieczkowski (Jan 5, 2009)

for you guys that are diehards and have never been to a show, let me tell you, the big ones are AWESOME!
i am in the middle of my e46 coupe build. when its done i will post pix. i figure maybe a few meca shows during the build for some feedback and then off to the races.
christ, ive been gone so long i dont even remember the sound q classes and categories.
just build it how you want and then see where you fit.
pro, unlimited power here
i cant wait to compete again!


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## icehole5664 (Mar 19, 2009)

What?


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

icehole5664 said:


> What?


Who's this icehole?


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## icehole5664 (Mar 19, 2009)

You don't know? Why I am icehole the elder sent down from the Loknar temple high in the hills of SkeetSkeet next to the Hematuria lake to rid the world of unwanted 3skin. For more please purchase my complete story, now available on audio book for the deaf. 

Actually just needed to post a message since i am new. Thanks for caring.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

icehole5664 said:


> SkeetSkeet


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## maloy (Nov 30, 2008)

just too far from me....


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## jingle-jangle (Dec 27, 2008)

i dont compete because i dont like to lose


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## Fussion289 (Apr 3, 2009)

Personally I don't compete for a number of reasons. Firstly money, secondly my system is def not loud enough. thirdly i'm more conserend with quality


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## cool mr grinch (Mar 30, 2009)

i dont know of any competitions in my area.


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## kajun kreations (Apr 9, 2009)

Well I have never competed, but I have built some cars that have, and still have my car which is hasnt been touched in 3.5 years, but when it is finished I will compete.


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## eRush (Apr 2, 2009)

benny said:


> I don't think we have much for SQ comps around here, or I would try to hit a few, even just to listen at first. I used to do some SPL comps, but I never liked the idea of burping my ****.


He said burp and ****..
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## eRush (Apr 2, 2009)

RedGTiVR6 said:


> I'm a bit stumped, many of your options are geared towards SPL only. For example: not being loud enough and not driving an S-10 or a CRX.
> 
> These have absolutely nothing to do with SQ.
> 
> ...





RedGTiVR6 said:


> Why does it matter how old your stuff is?
> 
> If you compete in sound only, the judges never have to see your equipment.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

VERY WELL SAID!!!


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## eRush (Apr 2, 2009)

ca90ss said:


> Why do you need competition for this to happen? Are you saying people are incapable of making improvements without someone else there to judge them? Is there a level that cannot be reached without being a competitor?


I think you missed his original point.





ca90ss said:


> Time is easy to quantify, sound quality is not. If you ask 10 people what sound quality means to them you'll get 10 different answers.


In car audio competitions, judges are trained and certified according to the standard. The standard to to reproduce the recorded music to as closely replicate the live performance as possible.

His we are all human there are going to be some differences. Car audio competition is very much like a dog show. In some shows you have a 100 beautiful examples of what the standard is to them. At the dog show you have a judge you is certified for that breed. This judge happens to hold the idea that structure is more important that movement. They would grade dog with a slightly better structure and a slightly poorer movement higher than a dog with the poorer structure and a better gait.

The same thing happens in car audio. One judges like imaging better that spectral balance. This judge in turn would score according to his interruption of the standard and his/her likes and dislikes. In my few years of competition I have never seen where a judge judged by his/her own standard. Because of their bias they will lean a certain way when is comes to one of the criteria's. 

Remember, its according to a standard, an ideal. Its an ideal that is impossible to achieve, yet we try! 





ca90ss said:


> So where are these measurements and proof etc. in the competition world? All I see is subjective opinions, seems to me like the complete opposite concept.


If you know a judge like a something different than you taste, change it to more closely reflect what the judges is looking for. Then when the show is over change it back to your setting.

Then when you get beat by someone else at the show, dont get upset and drive out half cocked. Go over and ask to listen to there system. Asked them what the judge liked and didnt like. You will see what you have to do at that point to have you system sound better.

Thats the whole point of shows, to improve.


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## eRush (Apr 2, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> But is winning the competition the answer? I'd also bet that the greats in car audio were also motivated by being considered a great in car audio -- something that doesn't necessarily need a win-loss record to achieve. Lots of people earn this reputation regardless of the size of their trophies.


How could the greats become great without all the wins. Do you think without competition that we would even know who Mark Eldridge, Gary Biggs, or Alma Gates were???



MarkZ said:


> Consider the "real world", where people are motivated to do things without having to have an actual competition.


Lets consider the real world. If you were able to get away with only doing 80% of your work while the guy in the cube was doing even less would you attempt to be better???




MarkZ said:


> The closest analogy I can think of is in the scientific and technological communities, where ideas are shared and presented at conferences without the need for trophies.


No trophies, then what are awards like the Pulitzer Prize???




MarkZ said:


> I think the flow of information becomes muddled when the focus becomes (at least partially) based on scoring and the adherence to a predefined one-size-fits-all test.


Again the scoring is based on a standard that isnt changing, it's uniform.


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## eRush (Apr 2, 2009)

michaelsil1 said:


> I have no interest in SPL Competitions in my opinion it has nothing to do with music, it’s just a bunch of noise and let’s see who has a bigger schmuck.
> 
> I do have an interest in improving my SQ and if competing will give me some insight as to how I can improve my setup I'm all for it.


There are SQ competitions however, there just isnt as many as SPL competitions.

You can learn a ton by attending one and not competiting, and then even more once you attend one. If you enter a SQ comp your outlook would change toward music.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Well haven't compete yet, because at the level I want to compete at, funds or time has always came into play and I was never truly happy with the products I had choosing. The products part is now taken care of, I'm truly happy with the products I have on hand and I just started my build. I'm hoping to have it ready of Elite in August.

Finally started the build, thats more then I can say in the last 5 years of wanting to compete.

And for those of you who compete, hope to see you in the lanes soon.


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## dummptyhummpty (Feb 4, 2006)

I don't complete because as a college student, time and funds are limited. I also feel that because my car is my daily driver, I don't want to go cutting things up to fit speakers in non OEM locations. I just figured that if I did try to compete, I wouldn't have a chance. I could be wrong though.


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## keabrown79 (Apr 11, 2009)

def to expensive to get started on my end


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

I have judged way back in the day, and had some competing customers, and been on a competitor's "team".

- I tune and install for the sonic aspects which I value the most. I will sacrifice linearity and response for imaging and staging, and I will sacrifice sub-bass output for front stage. To overcome those tradeoffs require a level of spending time and money which I don't want to spend. It's hard enough to get my system installed, these days.

- I design for stealth and OEM integration, and someone willing to do more mods to the car than I am will ALWAYS be able to beat me. I've cut lots of metal out in the past, but I'm not doing so any longer. 

- I have been in this industry for over 2 decades. In that time, I've met a lot of nice guys, and a couple of nice ladies, and a lot of people who have a defense mechanism called "*******". 

Look at it this way. Most car audio folks are self-taught. Self-taught individuals often place a significant portion of their self-esteem on their being self-taught. If those folks are wrong about the topic they are self-taught about, they often feel threatened - their identity itself can seem to be at risk. 

I would love to spend time in GTGs, listening to other people's systems and showing off mine and getting feedback. But really, when it comes right down to it, if I like how it sounds, and after you tell me about the deficiency you perceive, I still don't find my system lacking, I could really give a rat's, you know?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

VP Electricity said:


> - I design for stealth and OEM integration, and someone willing to do more mods to the car than I am will ALWAYS be able to beat me. I've cut lots of metal out in the past, but I'm not doing so any longer.


thank you


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## rexxxlo (Apr 14, 2009)

cuz im a judge and i feel its a conflict of intrest 

sorry i didnt fit in your poll


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## cd300 (Mar 25, 2009)

I spend way too much time reading every single reply,etc on this website to have enough time to compete....


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## BsMobileAudio (Apr 23, 2009)

Don't have the money!!!


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## benahn (Apr 24, 2009)

i am planing on entering a comp soon sponsered by a local audio shop. my first one ever i am guessing that i will be in some class like unlimited. 93 ford econoline van 4 amps 6 10inch subs 2 12inch subs. 220 amp alt one battery, because i have so much space to work with i have put in some unusual mid bass,mid horns,horn tweets, most of the install is good looking not many wires expossed crossovers are hidden. all boxes are flat black with homade grill work. it is nothing great but i am having fun building and learning. i also dont know a lot about what i am doing.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm a bit late to the party but still want to add in my 2 cents' worth.

I started competing in USACi SQ very recently, and have noticed:
- about 95% of competitors do SPL, 5% do SQ. Why? I guess loud bass just draws more of a crowd. SPL is objective and simple, just pull up, put the mic in place and turn up volume.
- some shops enter their "SQ" car...in the same class I compete. I think this is an unfair advantage as they have access to more resources/equipment than a DIY who just does this on the side with spare change.
- the judges I have had evaluate my install and sound have been thorough and consistent and I look forward to their suggestions. This is one of the main reasons I enter in the competitions (aside from seeing what other people have done with their rides).
- location of comps in my area is not much of a problem. This year I should be able to get to about 5 shows within a 2 hour radius.


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## DGR6 (Apr 28, 2009)

I listen for my own enjoyment. I've never viewed it as a competitive activity.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

1)Every competition I see in this area revolves around SPL... 
2)Time
3)I'm not going to bring my install aesthetics up to that standard (trunk mounted equip)
4)My tuning skills = Sh$t
5)I don't need another addiction
6)I'd have to spend more $$ on things that are not going to enhance the SQ
But mostly TIME...


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## NoTraction (Aug 10, 2008)

I spend too much time at the track goiing fast


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## jrfonte (Apr 7, 2009)

because i have no idea how that judging and classes and stuff works and it cost money to go to different areas to do it. i have no idea what kind of class my car would be in but i would try to put it in if one came to my area if it didnt cost to much.


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## H3adBussa78 (May 7, 2009)

I'm just not that interested in competing. I just like to listen to my music in my own little enclosure. I try not to bother others with it but well, it's just too loud for that.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> this thread makes me want to compete


do it


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## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

Why are S10's included in a poll answer? Are they loud like the CRX's? Sorry, but I've been out of competition for a long time and I haven't heard that reference... THX


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## JLawsonz (Jun 4, 2009)

Too expensive and not based on reality in the amateur classes any more. I used to compete when amateur classes were really for amateurs, but then they turned into classes out of work installers or people sliding by the technical definition of amateurs, I got out and stopped buying new equipment. I re-use and rebuild my old stuff that has been good quality and not abused. I've been using and reusing the same subs and amps for 10+ years now. Boston PRO, Fosgate and JL.

When competitions took place at local stereo shops, they were more about selling instead of the competition. Manufacturers used to sponsor these shindigs with BBQ's and was the foundation of getting good advice and plans for my next purchase, even if it wasn't happening right away.

The cost decent equipment and electrical system upgrades, not to mention the suspension upgrades is a pain to pay off in this economy if it's placed on a credit card. Better options for financing would help. 

Just my opinion.


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## Mahna Mahna (Mar 2, 2008)

eRush said:


> If you know a judge like a something different than you taste, change it to more closely reflect what the judges is looking for. Then when the show is over change it back to your setting.


:thumbsup: That's what I used to do when I competed back in the mid 90's. 

I even had two kick panel setups. I LOVED my Macrom front end.....but.....the judges prefered MB Quart....Sooooo, I had a set of kick panels made (with Quart) just for the show. After ths show I switched back to the Macrom for the drive home 

After competing in SQ for two years, the judges told me my setup was getting old and I needed to change/freshen up the install.


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## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't think there are any competitions around here anymore. Back in the heyday (early to mid 90's) we had 4 car audio shops in the area and each one had an IASCA event. The store I worked at usually had about 90-100 vehicles in the events (this is in a town of 27,000). Granted half of those competing were not local, but that is still pretty good. We used to get some nice cars come through too. 2 hours away in Pittsburgh was the "Superbowl of Sound" which was cool. We judged the cars inside the stadium. It was one of the first events where the cars stayed stationary while the judging teams moved from car to car. I got sick of spending every weekend driving anywhere from 2 hours to 9 hours to go judge an event, and if I had time and someone to clean my car up, maybe run it through too or spend half the night tweeking a car for someone. At some events you could look out in the parking lot at night and all you could see were red LED's moving up and down. I honestly didn't have the energy after being in the sun all day to run my car through, and piss people off when I won, and was also a judge, so I didn't bother competing too much. However, I did get to meet a lot of knowledgeable people, make some good friends, and got to see and hear some of the really legendary cars of the time that were off limits if you were not judging them (install). As for the caliber of judges, we had pretty much the same team of guys for several years, and worked very hard to be fair and score on a true average so that people didn't have to worry if they were the first car through the lanes (everyone wanted to be the last one in line).


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