# Any reason why Hybrid Audio not as popular as it used to be ?



## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I was finally able to get back into car audio in 2010 and HAT was the hot brand. Scott kind of came from the ranks of DIY and had started the company and it almost seemed to be one of the most common brands chosen by those in the know. While a bit spendy, I went with them because HAT was so steadily represented in winning car audio competitions. I knew that didn't mean they had to be the best speakers EVAH, but I liked that it demonstrated an established level of quality and they sound great to me. I also liked that they were designed specifically for car audio unlike picking drivers out of a catalog. 

I notice now in 2018 they are still winning a lot of competitions and I do still see them on high end builds (for example the L8's in the PSSOUND E63 Mercedes) but their doesn't seem to be as much love for them here on the forum. It seems like AudioFrog is now the speaker choice du jour. From what I can tell AF is a little bit cheaper but not overwhelmingly so.

I'm just curious if this is the trends of fashion or is there some reason people have not been using them as much ? I suspect maybe they are just a little to expensive compared to catalog drivers and other options ?


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## mrichard89 (Sep 29, 2016)

Hybrid is still very popular making top-notch product. I think that Audiofrog has done a great job catering to the main-stream consumer and their installation hardware makes installation much easier. Hybrid is still the way to go if you're willing to do the custom work though.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

To be blunt.. Its not nearly as good as what people made it out to be and what the price implies. Sorry Hybrid fans.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I do believe that it has a little to do with what happens to be popular at a particular time (I.e. Forum boner). I’ve had several Hybrid Audio speakers over the past 12 years or so and they’ve never failed to deliver. In the past 6 months, I’ve begun to acquire and use some Audiofrog’s. The Frogs have performed beyond my expectations. Both brands produce excellent performance and both are on the more expensive end of the spectrum.

I too believe the value-added with Audiofrog installation accessories sets them apart from everyone else.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> To be blunt.. Its not nearly as good as what people made it out to be and what the price implies. Sorry Hybrid fans.


agreed, i have heard 3 or 4 cars using them and they where OK but nothing special considering other offerings for the same or a little more money


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> To be blunt.. Its not nearly as good as what people made it out to be and what the price implies. Sorry Hybrid fans.


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> To be blunt.. Its not nearly as good as what people made it out to be and what the price implies. Sorry Hybrid fans.


I’m running Audiofrog 6x9s for midbass duty and they do a good job. I heard a truck with some Hybrid 6x9s and was pretty blown away by them. What those were doing in his truck would’ve rattled my doors apart. My doors are pretty deadened but he must have a ****load in his doors. 

For my situation running mine off a Helix P6 it’s tempting to try out the Hybrid 2 Ohm version so see if extra power would help. I think the truck had 4 channels bridged off a Zapco AP 6.150.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

truckguy said:


> I’m running Audiofrog 6x9s for midbass duty and they do a good job. I heard a truck with some Hybrid 6x9s and was pretty blown away by them. What those were doing in his truck would’ve rattled my doors apart. My doors are pretty deadened but he must have a ****load in his doors.
> 
> For my situation running mine off a Helix P6 it’s tempting to try out the Hybrid 2 Ohm version so see if extra power would help. I think the truck had 4 channels bridged off a Zapco AP 6.150.


Toms truck. Yeah, ive heard it as well. It also has about 20 pounds of clay and multiple layers of deadener and foam in each door. a lot of midbass drivers are more capable than most think, just gotta put in the time and effort to do a solid install. It also comes down to driver design. They designed those to have a long XMECH so it doesnt bottom out, regardless of its actual linear xmax. couple that with most people dont perceive distortion very well at lower frequencies, you get toms truck. Idk, ive tuned probably 5 cars with hybrid now, and have even installed a few of their drivers. Every time i was left with one question.. "really?"


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

It was probably a mixed bag of things, but I'd say it used to be the forum boner. Now it's Audiofrog and I believe they're doing a better job at marketing/selling etc. They're even on Crutchfield. Hybrid always seemed to have that "underground" stigma to it. You couldn't find it at any big box stores. It wasn't sold by any major chain of retailers. They literally have like zero marketing.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. Got to admit I'm surprised at Skizer slagging on Hybrid. I expected someone to say they are over rated but not to that degree. (I found some other threads where he reinforces that opinion)

I just finished a new install 3 way active using a Legatia L4 as mid range. My reference system is my other car also an active 3 way using an L4. Both sound really good to me with the new install being more exciting as I'm using the L4's in pods vs kicks which makes them seem more dynamic and clear to me.

I was considering trying to score some used L4SE just to finish it off with "the best" but I'm curious to try something different. I realize this is a dumb subjective question but do you really think I would hear a notiecable improvement swapping in a set of GB40's ? I'm curious to try a different driver but kind of an expensive lark if they really aren't that much different.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

What's the old saying? "If your forum boner lasts for more than four hours, call your tuner."


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## robtr8 (Dec 6, 2011)

I had L3SE’s and L6SE Carbon’s in a previous install. They sounded great with music made with real musical instruments. Anything electronic just sounded meh. The GB40’s in the e92 are just amazing.

I had L1V2’s in the moose. Never really sounded special. The GB10’s are really nice.


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## moodue (Nov 25, 2018)

To throw in the perspective of HAT's lower end customers. I was convinced to get hybrid audio by the enormous, veiny forum boner that was here among other message boards... 8 years ago. 

I fell in love with the sound coming out of the Imagine series components. With little knowledge about audio, but a keen ability to Google things, I felt proud owning my "underground", nobody-has-heard-of-these-outside-of-every-forum-member speakers.

I've only heard a handful of systems, but for the money those blew the others out of the water. I wouldn't mind giving other boner... I mean, options a try though.


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## BrianP (Nov 21, 2016)

There is now the Legata X series mids which from the hype are another step up again.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

For me the thing that’s sets drivers from a company like Audiofrog apart (aside from anecdotal evidence from experienced peeps in SQ) is the amount of objective data that is available that provides ample evidence that they will deliver. I use this kind of data as a baseline for whether I will use a speaker. Anecdotal evidence is pretty unreliable when there are so many things influencing the sound. Tuning, install, power, psychoacoustics With a good test you are able to set aside those variables & focus on the speaker. 

Andy’s knowledge and willingness to help has also been huge.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> To be blunt.. Its not nearly as good as what people made it out to be and what the price implies. Sorry Hybrid fans.


What's good then? Not being a smart-ass. Just seeing that you probably have a lot more listening time with a lot more brands than I do.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

tonynca said:


> What's good then? Not being a smart-ass. Just seeing that you probably have a lot more listening time with a lot more brands than I do.


Dynaudio ESOTEC is very good, the ESOTAR is the very best IMO


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## unix_usr (Dec 4, 2013)

My top two picks personally are the Dynaudio esotar followed by the AudioFrog GB line - bang-for-buck though, the AF isn’t in the stratosphere price-wise. My $0.02 ... installability and support trump, nothing else I have heard in this price range of same quality. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

Arete said:


> For me the thing that’s sets drivers from a company like Audiofrog apart (aside from anecdotal evidence from experienced peeps in SQ) is the amount of objective data that is available that provides ample evidence that they will deliver. I use this kind of data as a baseline for whether I will use a speaker. Anecdotal evidence is pretty unreliable when there are so many things influencing the sound. Tuning, install, power, psychoacoustics With a good test you are able to set aside those variables & focus on the speaker.
> 
> Andy’s knowledge and willingness to help has also been huge.


I would have to comb the DIYMA archives via google, but I recall that Scott had specifically requested that the Hybrid drivers *not* be Klippel tested by the site. Contrast this with various manufacturers that chose to provide samples for testing or who released their own internal testing data in an effort to highlight the objective performance of their products.

Additionally, Scott's decision to participate in the forum only when selling dealer sample/B-stock product versus other notable industry people who chose to participate in general discussions spoke volumes to me as a member here.

In the end, we are usually splitting hairs with well designed products that sit in the same price bracket. Subjective impressions aside, I'm must more willing to vote with my dollars for a company/person who has demonstrated a willingness to provide high quality support or are active within the ever shrinking community.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Are you High? Your recollection is awfully flawed.

QUOTE=alachua;5632879]I would have to comb the DIYMA archives via google, but I recall that Scott had specifically requested that the Hybrid drivers *not* be Klippel tested by the site. Contrast this with various manufacturers that chose to provide samples for testing or who released their own internal testing data in an effort to highlight the objective performance of their products.

Additionally, Scott's decision to participate in the forum only when selling dealer sample/B-stock product versus other notable industry people who chose to participate in general discussions spoke volumes to me as a member here.

In the end, we are usually splitting hairs with well designed products that sit in the same price bracket. Subjective impressions aside, I'm must more willing to vote with my dollars for a company/person who has demonstrated a willingness to provide high quality support or are active within the ever shrinking community.[/QUOTE]


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

tonynca said:


> What's good then? Not being a smart-ass. Just seeing that you probably have a lot more listening time with a lot more brands than I do.


Theres a ton of great sounding drivers out there. What works best though is application dependent though.

I'll give a little bit of a backstory so its not taken wrong..

Ive heard many cars with hybrid speakers that sound good. BUT.. i have also owned/used various models from, and have installed/tuned various models myself in many different cars. _Every_ car that i have tuned that has hybrid speakers never came out sounding acceptable to me. I have never in my life felt like a car that i tuned sounded poor _except_ for the four or five cars that i have installed and/or tuned that had hybrid speakers. I tune the local hybrid reps car. I have on a few occasions with different iterations, but all using the 3 way Legatia SE set. Never was pleased with that car. Everything is all fine and dandy with the response and phase, but something about it just sounds fake, and its not subtle either. The next one was a car with a very solid install using the 3 way unity set with the 6x9's. Same thing, but even worse. Im also not tuning cars for free mind you. This car was the only time ive ever told someone "no charge". Not because i was being nice, but because i honestly felt like it sounded horrible. again, frequency response and phase/timing was all good and was tuned the same way i tune every car.. Just sounded bad. Idk, maybe they dont like the way i tune lol.

I also was doing a tune for someone today who started talking about Hybrid speakers.. to put it lightly, he agreed. Someone else who was there whos also used hybrid was also at the shop today. He overheard the conversation and piped in that he also agreed. 

I dont think theyre as bad as im making them out to be, but it ****ing stings when you pay about $2000 for a 3 way setup that sounds worse than the ones ive put together for less than $500.

And for those that are either fans of hybrid or are other industry employees who are about to message me saying it looks bad for me to be saying this publicly.. **** that. I'm done playing that "keep it PC" game.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

alachua said:


> I would have to comb the DIYMA archives via google, but I recall that Scott had specifically requested that the Hybrid drivers *not* be Klippel tested by the site.


well.. they were klippeled anyway. Theyre published 9mm xmax on the l6se turned out to be something like 3mm linear


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

mmiller said:


> Are you High? Your recollection is awfully flawed.


https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1245921-post60.html

Shall I expect an apology?


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## moodue (Nov 25, 2018)

Isn't that post more in reference to a subjective analysis by Erin (who doesn't seem to personally prefer HAT), rather than an objective one?

Edit: I could be wrong. He may have been implying that Erin was not able to complete an impartial analysis with their prejudice against HAT. 

What reason would any manufacturer have for not wanting objective testing done against their products? (if that even was the case here)


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

> What reason would any manufacturer have for not wanting objective testing done against their products? (if that even was the case here)


Because it dispels the magic audiophile fairy dust that expensive speakers supposedly have. Especially if it doesn't measure well against cheap catalog drivers.

Not sure I want to spring for expensive AudioFrogs, but I'm intrigued enough to go look at some catalog drivers and give them a try (any suggestions for a 4"+ midrange ?)

Here is a question that challenges why I gravitated to HAT in the first place - I realize that competitions have a lot of factors going on, from who gets product to who the judges know etc. But if HAT drivers are nothing special, then why have they racked up such an impressive list of competition victories ? Again I realize that maybe winning is based on many factors including politics, but it still seems like you couldn't pull off that much success with sub par drivers, nor would competitors continue to compete with those products. But I've never even been to a comp or know anything about how they work.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

preston said:


> Here is a question that challenges why I gravitated to HAT in the first place - I realize that competitions have a lot of factors going on, from who gets product to who the judges know etc. But if HAT drivers are nothing special, then why have they racked up such an impressive list of competition victories ? Again I realize that maybe winning is based on many factors including politics, but it still seems like you couldn't pull off that much success with sub par drivers, nor would competitors continue to compete with those products. But I've never even been to a comp or know anything about how they work.


tbh, competition results arent a great way of judging the performance of a cars system, let alone the drivers used in it. I chalk it up to them having such a massive team. Kinda hard to not rack up trophies when you have like a third of the competitors (well, at one point it seemed like. Not anymore) running hybrid.


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

preston said:


> Because it dispels the magic audiophile fairy dust that expensive speakers supposedly have. Especially if it doesn't measure well against cheap catalog drivers.


This exactly. See: measured linear xmax versus claimed



> Not sure I want to spring for expensive AudioFrogs, but I'm intrigued enough to go look at some catalog drivers and give them a try (any suggestions for a 4"+ midrange ?)


https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...anspeak-discovery-10f/4424g-4-midrange-4-ohm/

test: https://web.archive.org/web/2018012...0f4424g00-discovery-4-midrange-4-ohm-version/


https://www.parts-express.com/faita...rofessional-full-range-woofer-4-ohm--294-1120

test (predecessor): https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-
driver-specs/121054-faital-4fe30.html

https://www.parts-express.com/peerl...-3-1-2-full-range-paper-cone-woofer--264-1062

test: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...-midrange-widebander-review-measurements.html



> Here is a question that challenges why I gravitated to HAT in the first place - I realize that competitions have a lot of factors going on, from who gets product to who the judges know etc. But if HAT drivers are nothing special, then why have they racked up such an impressive list of competition victories ? Again I realize that maybe winning is based on many factors including politics, but it still seems like you couldn't pull off that much success with sub par drivers, nor would competitors continue to compete with those products. But I've never even been to a comp or know anything about how they work.


As SkiezeR said, it is a mix of having lots of people competing with the drivers, the relative high quality of the installs/tunes of the cars that are competing, and HAT drivers being good quality drivers (though not necessarily the best value for money)


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Not a ****ing chance. 

Scott’s giving his time and Drivers to be sent off to be tested independently, I could spend two hours combing through through threads but have this thing called a life. Maybe you should get one instead on spending it on the forums.



alachua said:


> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1245921-post60.html
> 
> Shall I expect an apology?


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

mmiller said:


> Not a ****ing chance.
> 
> Scott’s giving his time and Drivers to be sent off to be tested independently, I could spend two hours combing through through threads but have this thing called a life. Maybe you should get one instead on spending it on the forums.


 You can tell a lot about the character of a person with how they behave when they are wrong.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mmiller said:


> Not a ****ing chance.
> 
> Scott’s giving his time and Drivers to be sent off to be tested independently, I could spend two hours combing through through threads but have this thing called a life. Maybe you should get one instead on spending it on the forums.


dude, he literally just proved you wrong :laugh:


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Lmao, wtf has this thread become.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm going to try to head off the pissing match by slightly changing the subject.

For the record, while I definitely appreciate Skizer's opinion and he certainly has a ton more experience with different systems than I do, I don't currently feel like I am disappointed with the HAT stuff (the opposite actually). I was just curious why the forum boner had gone limp. But as you can see it has inspired me to do some experimenting since that's what this hobby is all about.

So slightly off topic -

Thanks for the driver suggestions Alachua. Do you think those are all suitable for IB mounting ? I see most of these types of drivers are usually recommended for small (vented) enclosures but I'm sure that has a lot to do with people trying to use them as a full range bookshelf speaker ie trying to get down to 90Hz. But I do notice some of them have ~.3 Qts which seems like it might be low for IB mounting (for example the L4 is 0.56). I plan to cross them around 200 Hz. 

I've also been intrigued by Erin H. experiments with co-axials. I was thinking about giving one of these a try (any thoughts ?)

Seas 4" coaxial
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/H1602_L12RE_XFC_Datasheet.pdf

Morel 4" coaxial
https://www.parts-express.com/pedoc...-integra-424-hybrid-series-specifications.pdf

My maximum outer diameter is 125mm, and 118 is preferable.

I'm definitely going to experiment with some of these drivers (both the coaxials and the pure midranges) in place of the L4's and report back. I am using L4's in both of my vehicles in an active 3 way so a good chance to compare. L8's in the heavily treated doors of both vehicles, one running L1 tweets off axis in the pillars and one running some old component Polk tweeters I had laying around off axis in the pillar. I don't hear anything above 8k anyway and in fact was planning on setting up my latest system without them (another reason to choose the L4) but I did find it sounded much better using tweeters after all. One vehicle has the L4' in the kicks off axis, the other one has them in pods on the dash about 20 degrees off axis so again a good chance to compare.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> dude, he literally just proved you wrong :laugh:


No, There was a blindfold test he sent them out for, and something else... Jerry Neiber spearheaded that, and there was something else... but anyways, I’m not a advocate for any care Audio company, so it doesn’t much matter to me anyways.

Comp cars are tuned to win points on a score sheet... and realistic many of them don’t sound that great but will still place well, and cars that sound awsome don’t even make in the top 5.. .but I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

To be objective, he specifically said he didn’t want them tested by Erin. Erin at the time had a Klippel. Yet he was willing to allow subjective testing.

I interpret that as him not wanting his drivers objectively/scientifically measured, but instead was okay with them being subjectively reviewed. The suspicious part of me says that suggests that they might not live up to the promised objective specs (linear excursion) specifically.

Do you interpret that differently?


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

I’m was talking about several other tests on other occasions, And didn’t Erin have the test results on his website?? I know the L1R2’s were tested by him, and posted by him on his website. That website has been shut down.





GreatLaBroski said:


> To be objective, he specifically said he didn’t want them tested by Erin. Erin at the time had a Klippel. Yet he was willing to allow subjective testing.
> 
> I interpret that as him not wanting his drivers objectively/scientifically measured, but instead was okay with them being subjectively reviewed. The suspicious part of me says that suggests that they might not live up to the promised objective specs (linear excursion) specifically.
> 
> Do you interpret that differently?


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

There was a 20 page **** show about testing a bunch of drivers, and that’s not what he said, I guess our interpretation of the English language is different. If loan out drivers and someone says they’re ****ing garbage before he actually tests them, he asked if they were going to tested if not don’t do it and send them back. Reading two sentences out of a 40 page thread isn’t giving you the whole ball of wax. I knew there was some reason why he got pissed off, now I’m reminded why.



GreatLaBroski said:


> To be objective, he specifically said he didn’t want them tested by Erin. Erin at the time had a Klippel. Yet he was willing to allow subjective testing.
> 
> I interpret that as him not wanting his drivers objectively/scientifically measured, but instead was okay with them being subjectively reviewed. The suspicious part of me says that suggests that they might not live up to the promised objective specs (linear excursion) specifically.
> 
> Do you interpret that differently?


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

who builds the HAT drivers?


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

mmiller said:


> I’m was talking about several other tests on other occasions, And didn’t Erin have the test results on his website?? I know the L1R2’s were tested by him, and posted by him on his website. That website has been shut down.


It's right here:https://web.archive.org/web/20171228231742/http://medleysmusings.com/hatl1pror2/

It's a tweeter however, not a mid or woofer. So no klippel involved.



mmiller said:


> There was a 20 page **** show about testing a bunch of drivers, and that’s not what he said, I guess our interpretation of the English language is different. If loan out drivers and someone says they’re ****ing garbage before he actually tests them, he asked if they were going to tested if not don’t do it and send them back. Reading two sentences out of a 40 page thread isn’t giving you the whole ball of wax. I knew there was some reason why he got pissed off, now I’m reminded why.


I've never seen Erin prejudge a driver ever. Even via PM he's hesitant to provide anything but objective data. It's like pulling teeth to get a subjective statement from him. I have a hard time believing that he'd trash a driver before testing it.

Edit: And to finish my thought, if it wasn't Erin trashing them, then why prevent him from testing them?


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Btw, here's the testing threads:

Harmonic Distortion and Freq Response:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...review-forum/106303-hybrid-audio-l4-l4se.html

Klippel:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ver-specs/106732-klippel-hybrid-audio-l4.html

Looks okay to me and on par with other mids in its class.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

What are you trying to get out of this?? I never said Erin had anything to do with the ****storm, but he clearly made a comment and Scott, responded. Did you interpret that differently as well???? JFC.

QUOTE=GreatLaBroski;5633319]It's right here:https://web.archive.org/web/20171228231742/http://medleysmusings.com/hatl1pror2/

It's a tweeter however, not a mid or woofer. So no klippel involved.



I've never seen Erin prejudge a driver ever. Even via PM he's hesitant to provide anything but objective data. It's like pulling teeth to get a subjective statement from him. I have a hard time believing that he'd trash a driver before testing it.

Edit: And to finish my thought, if it wasn't Erin trashing them, then why prevent him from testing them? [/QUOTE]


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

I think you’re a lot more invested in this than I am. I’m just sifting through the available information and more or less commenting on it as I find it. That includes taking yours and other people’s comments at face value.

It might be confusing if you think I’ve taken a “side” and that I’m against “your side”. I’m not on any particular side of any argument. 

I figure that others will eventually read this and I don’t appreciate revisionist history. So I’m openly commenting on what I find. Withholding info only obfuscates truth, which is what I’m after.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

GreatLaBroski said:


> Withholding info only obfuscates truth, which is what I’m after.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Check into the Scan 10f.....


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Andy has always been very active in the DIY community. If I'm not mistaken, his MS-8 thread has the most activity of any thread on the 'technical and advanced' forum. 

So when he formed his own company, it's no surprise that it was a hit, he's always been a huge contributor to the community.

Another thing that I appreciate about the AF gear is that it's legitimately top-notch gear. For instance, I like the SB Acoustics 2.5" driver a lot, and Audio Frog sells a comparable driver. (The GB25 iirc.) Though the AF driver is MUCH more expensive, it is also better. In particular, the use of a cast frame is something I wish SB Acoustics would do. (Their driver uses a plastic frame, and I've cracked two of them now.)


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Jamo FTW!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

preston said:


> I was considering trying to score some used L4SE just to finish it off with "the best" but I'm curious to try something different. I realize this is a dumb subjective question but *do you really think I would hear a notiecable improvement swapping in a set of GB40's* ? I'm curious to try a different driver but kind of an expensive lark if they really aren't that much different.



Yes, absolutely. Speakers make a very noticeable difference in sound when swapped out. They are about the highest distortion component in the system and have the most variance in response. Especially when you swap one for one in the same enclosure. whether that difference is better or worse to your ears is the question.







preston said:


> Here is a question that challenges why I gravitated to HAT in the first place - I realize that competitions have a lot of factors going on, from who gets product to who the judges know etc. But if HAT drivers are nothing special, then why have they racked up such an impressive list of competition victories ? Again I realize that maybe winning is based on many factors including politics, but it still seems like you couldn't pull off that much success with sub par drivers, nor would competitors continue to compete with those products. But I've never even been to a comp or know anything about how they work.



Tom, Klifton, Welch... these guys all do a great job with system building and tuning. That makes a massive difference in the end result- regardless of the speakers used. There's a lot of experience there.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Look, in the end the tonal characteristics of the drivers are a subjective preference. Some people like paper cones and the softer distortion profile, some like stiffer cones or metal cones. Some like larger drivers, some prefer smaller (dispersion characteristics vs cone area and lower distortion). Some want high efficiency....or ib designed vs sealed...
It all comes down to the specific vehicle, the application and the way the system is executed.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I've got no dog in this fight, but since the L6SE was brought up, it is probably appropriate to share the objective Klippel testing. 

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/126847-hybrid-audio-l6se-klippel-testing.html


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

I knew they were tested. 

I don’t have a dog in the fight either I was simply stating fact... and I was right. If people don’t like Hybrid Audio because You don’t like they sound, the price, or whatever your agenda is fine... But to make up ****, or take one sentence out of a whole thread, saying Scott refused to allow anyone to test his speakers, when he sent them out to be tested is ridiculous. If someone makes up some ******** story and it’s not factual I’m going to say something, I don’t care what brand it is.

Thanks for posting the test results. 

QUOTE=rton20s;5633553]I've got no dog in this fight, but since the L6SE was brought up, it is probably appropriate to share the objective Klippel testing. 

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/126847-hybrid-audio-l6se-klippel-testing.html[/QUOTE]


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

preston said:


> I'm going to try to head off the pissing match by slightly changing the subject.
> 
> For the record, while I definitely appreciate Skizer's opinion and he certainly has a ton more experience with different systems than I do, I don't currently feel like I am disappointed with the HAT stuff (the opposite actually). I was just curious why the forum boner had gone limp. But as you can see it has inspired me to do some experimenting since that's what this hobby is all about.
> 
> ...


I have not heard all of the drivers I linked, and I personally haven't installed any, so I wouldn't be the right person to talk about how they may work IB. I was strongly considering the Peerless driver for an all budget system in my Miata, but a set of GB25s came up at a price I couldn't resist.

I'll be blunt though, I doubt any of them would be an upgrade from your L4s, except perhaps the Scan driver. The others represent some nice entry points to using raw drivers, but I wouldn't call them world beaters. If you are looking to really step up, then I think you would have a hard time getting any sane person to argue against the ScanSpeak Revelators:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/scanspeak-revelator-12m/4631g-4.5-midrange/ 

Test results: Scanspeak 12mu/4731t00 Klippel Results - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

Some pairs have recently come up in the classifieds for varying levels of discount, so you may even be able to save a few bucks.

I don't personally have any experience with the point source drivers you've linked.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

alachua said:


> I think you would have a hard time getting any sane person to argue against the ScanSpeak Revelators:
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/scanspeak-revelator-12m/4631g-4.5-midrange/
> 
> ...


Preston actually did just buy my 12m's. And they're damn good drivers. I don't think he'll be disappointed.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

mmiller said:


> I knew they were tested.
> 
> I don’t have a dog in the fight either I was simply stating fact... and I was right. If people don’t like Hybrid Audio because You don’t like they sound, the price, or whatever your agenda is fine... But to make up ****, or take one sentence out of a whole thread, saying Scott refused to allow anyone to test his speakers, when he sent them out to be tested is ridiculous. If someone makes up some ******** story and it’s not factual I’m going to say something, I don’t care what brand it is.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]




I think the difference here was that in one scenario, they were sent out to be "demo'd", subjectively. Like you can do at any dealer. 
The other was an entirely different animal- objective, klippel performance data on the drivers.



So I'm not sure why you are so bothered, but the statement he made was clearly not BS.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

alachua said:


> If you are looking to really step up, then I think you would have a hard time getting any sane person to argue against the ScanSpeak Revelators:
> 
> https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/scanspeak-revelator-12m/4631g-4.5-midrange/
> 
> Test results: Scanspeak 12mu/4731t00 Klippel Results - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum



FYI- The "Test results" link is actually for the 12mu which is the Illuminator driver, not the Revelator. Both are excellent though.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You know, when my name comes up in a topic like this I don't know why people don't just message me and ask me directly instead of trying to prove each other wrong. 

So, anyway...

The only drivers I recall Scott ever sent me to test publicly were the Ring Radiator tweeters which I tested and posted results for on MedleysMusings (RIP). The others I tested - L4SE, L4, L3SE, L6, L6SE - were all provided to me by members of the community. 

Yeeeeeaaaaars back when Nyugen (aka: NPDANG) owned the site and was doing testing there was a big fallout between Scott and Nyugen when data of the original L3 was released and that thread was subsequently deleted or heavily modified by Ant (after he bought it from Nyugen) at Scott's request. IIRC, Scott's argument was the test method/setup was questionable (the merits of which, I could _somewhat _agree with) but that's old hat anyway (pun totally intended).

So, there you go.


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## m1xmstr (Dec 11, 2018)

SkizeR said:


> To be blunt.. Its not nearly as good as what people made it out to be and what the price implies. Sorry Hybrid fans.


Are you referring to Clarus sub-woofers?

I think the price is a little too steep personally...


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

> but that's old hat anyway (pun totally intended).


LOL


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