# 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal



## Niebur3

As many of you know, back in March 2010 I spearheaded the 4" Midrange Shootout, a blind subjective listening test, featuring 16 drivers and a 23 page final written assessment. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ge-comparison-shootout-dyn-scan-hat-more.html

I have been asked on several occasions for a similar test regarding 6-7" drivers and after recent Klippel testing by Erin (bikinpunk), and subsequent discussion about how the data equates to what we hear, I am going to be conducting a new subjective listening test.

For this shootout, I will be looking to test the following drivers:

Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H (Automotive Version)








Dynaudio Esotar2 650








Focal Utopia 6 W2 Be








Hybrid Audio Technologies Legatia L6SE








ScanSpeak Illuminator 7" Paper Cone Woofer 18WU/4741T-00









That's it. 5 of the top drivers in performance/price in a blind subjective listening test. 

How will these be tested? My plan is two separate tests with different passbands. As we all know, the 6-7" size is primarily used in a 2-way configuration as a Midbass/Midrange AND as the Midbass in a 3-way setup. Therefore, we will test it both ways. 

***Disclaimer! The 4" midrange test lead me into a career of car audio and after that test, I became a dealer. I am a current dealer for Dynaudio and Hybrid Audio Technologies.***

Now, with that said, this test is being conducted due to my love of car audio. There will be several people involved in listening to the drivers in a single blind fashion.

I will select people for the listening test (if anyone outside the Omaha area wants to take part, let me know) and conducting the test in very similar fashion as the last one. Music will be discussed beforehand and a disc will be compiled with all the test songs. 

In order to complete this test, I will have to ask again for help from the DIYMA community with sourcing drivers, testing equipment and listening/testing time. As I am a dealer for Dyn and HAT, I would like to source all the drivers for this test independently. They will all be broken in properly before testing. Please let me know which drivers/equipment you would be willing to donate to the test (all items will be returned after the test in the condition in which received). I imagine you would need to allow us to have possession of the drivers/equipment for at most 60 days (could be much less) to set everything up and conduct the test. A Dayton WT3 (woofer tester 3) would be a great asset to this test as well. 

**Donations for shipping expenses for the drivers/equipment would be greatly appreciated**


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## Sound Suggestions

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed!


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## bassfromspace

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Brotacular!

I would like to see you add a highend prodriver to the mix. They tend to have high performance/dollar ratios and I suspect may present some issues for the other drivers.

Thanks!


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## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If you do a pro driver...it will be limited on the bass, but IMO you would be hard to beat the BMS 6S117. They are about $120 retail. The BMS should have a midrange distortion profile that is lower than any of the drivers listed.

Or could roll with a B&C since PE has them and you can return them later...lol.

Then you add one more twist...put the BG Neo 10s in the mix for George.

But be ready for a whole nother can o worms when you are done.

The thing I would really suggest would be to do the test blindfolded...have the speakers behind a curtain so only the control person knows what is playing.

That would make it really fun when it comes time for the results.


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## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Actually the 18Sound 6 might would be better since Zaph tested it and has been really well received from reviews.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

As of now, I plan on just the drivers listed unless someone really twists my arm or I can't source one and need to replace it. 

It will be just like the midrange test, we had grill cloth draped over the drivers so only the person changing drivers in and out knows what is playing. We even made all the testers leave the area so no peaking and will do the same !


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## sjr033

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed


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## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This is exactly what I've been waiting for! 

While I would prefer to have my 650 back fairly soon, if there's no other source for one, I guess Erin could ship mine to you when all testing is done. Looking forward to this.

An AE TD6H-8 would be a neat one as well.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> This is exactly what I've been waiting for!
> 
> While I would prefer to have my 650 back fairly soon, if there's no other source for one, I guess Erin could ship mine to you when all testing is done. Looking forward to this.
> 
> An AE TD6H-8 would be a neat one as well.


The 650's would be awesome. Yes, I have them in my doors, but I am in no shape (and won't be for a while) to get them out!


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## EmptyKim

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed


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## jcollin76

Nice!


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## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> The 650's would be awesome. Yes, I have them in my doors, but I am in no shape (and won't be for a while) to get them out!


I'll send mine. Its going to become the diyma wh**e lol. I'll pm you and Erin, maybe I can get it back for the upcoming socal meet and send it back to you.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That would work great Matt. 

Any others willing to lend drivers for testing?!?
Still needing:

Focal Be
Audio Technology
Hat SE
Scan Illums


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## Se7en

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed...

Since some of the drivers featured here are rather full figured, I'd like to twist your arm into considering the Exodus Anarchy.


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## ErinH

BuickGN said:


> This is exactly what I've been waiting for!
> 
> While I would prefer to have my 650 back fairly soon, if there's no other source for one, I guess Erin could ship mine to you when all testing is done. Looking forward to this.
> 
> An AE TD6H-8 would be a neat one as well.


I'm done. 

LMK. 



Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^ Cough, cough.....still needing some Scans....anyone know anyone that REALLY likes scans and has connections !


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Se7en said:


> Subscribed...
> 
> Since some of the drivers featured here are rather full figured, I'd like to twist your arm into considering the Exodus Anarchy.


Full Figured is part of the point .

But, there has been lots of interest in a not so Full Figured driver to be a part of this test. I will say this, this is NOT turing into a 16-20 driver test again. No way in hell. However, if the forum can come to an agreement for a single driver they would like to see represented and can furnish said driver (pair), then we can talk. 

Keep in mind, with doing basically 2 separate tests (due to the 2 different passbands) and testing the high quality of speakers, we are already talking basically 10 drivers (5 x 2 tests) and will need to listen longer due to the expected more subtle differences.


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## ErinH

My vote is for the vifa ne180w. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## asota

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

My vote would be to see German Meastro M series added they are a bit cheaper but are basically the same design that have won almost as many world titles as the others combined.


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## schmiddr2

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I like the list of drivers so far, but how about an RS180, something most people have either heard (for reference) or is more budget ($100 mids). And what about the Usher 894x?

I don't have either of these so I won't complain if they don't get included.


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## adriancp

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed! This is gonna be very cool.


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## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Niebur3,

Darn, the install in my commuter car has already started and the shop will probably need my AT 18H's by March 22nd or so to meet their timeline. Erin currently has them and is using them as makeshift door stops.

Depending on how things go (time-wise), I might be able to send one to you or take one out of the car after the install and tuning has been completed for testing purposes.

George


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^That would be great! Keep in touch with me.


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## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> ^^^That would be great! Keep in touch with me.


Will do...


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## bassfromspace

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

What's the purpose of this test if you plan to only test the aforementioned drivers? Seems like a bragging rights shootout.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Well, it's the same reasoning Motor Trend Pits the Corvette/Viper/Ferrari/Porsche/etc. against each other. To test the best the market has to offer. 

In the midrange we tested 16 pairs of drivers in only 1 passband and it was daunting to say the least. This will be a double test of 2 passbands, so the number of drivers needs to stay very limited. Testing an Esotar2 vs a Massive wouldn't really appeal to many. These are expensive, but all popular brands and many have done very well when Klippel tested.

Anyway, that is the plan and as I learned the first time, it will not please everyone.


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## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bassfromspace said:


> What's the purpose of this test if you plan to only test the aforementioned drivers? Seems like a bragging rights shootout.


If this is a "bragging rights shootout", how does adding cheaper drivers change that?

I think it's very useful to get an unbiased review of each driver. There aren't a whole lot of reviews on the high end stuff and there surely are no back to back blind listening tests. I think this is greatly needed. I want to know how my Dyns compare to the other stuff, good or bad so I can make an educated decision if I ever do another build. If the much cheaper Scan blows it away on the Klippel and in a blind listening test, guess what I'm buying next... Plus, this information will be nice to compare with the Klippel information and hopefully help to show what parameters to put the most weight on.


Hey Jerry, any chance of adding a Dyn 162 into the mix?


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^Well said.

As far as the 162, I'll have to wait and see how many of the dream list I am able to source or how much time will be available for the test. But I guarantee, we will not get to 16 drivers like the last test (and I still got asked why I didn't include more).


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## bassfromspace

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> If this is a "bragging rights shootout", how does adding cheaper drivers change that?
> 
> I think it's very useful to get an unbiased review of each driver. There aren't a whole lot of reviews on the high end stuff and there surely are no back to back blind listening tests. I think this is greatly needed. I want to know how my Dyns compare to the other stuff, good or bad so I can make an educated decision if I ever do another build. If the much cheaper Scan blows it away on the Klippel and in a blind listening test, guess what I'm buying next... Plus, this information will be nice to compare with the Klippel information and hopefully help to show what parameters to put the most weight on.
> 
> 
> Hey Jerry, any chance of adding a Dyn 162 into the mix?


If it is a "bragging rights shootout" then you are correct that a cheaper driver is unlikely to change things. However, I understood the initial debate in the AT Klippel thread to be about advanced motor design and how the ScanSpeak were able to measure better than more expensive drivers and that's what I thought this test was designed to understand.

The Vifa NE180 and BMS and B&C offerings would definitely have a place in such testing, but I can understand the need for limits so thay Niebur can maintain his sanity.


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## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Oh, subscribed for sure. PM for you too Niebur


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Update.....

BuickGN - will send the Dynaudio Esotar2 650's
snaimpally - will send the Focal Utopia Be's
d5sc - will send the Audio Technology

Still looking for the HAT L6se's & Scan Illuminators


After careful consideration, this particular test will be high end drivers only. I really want this test to be the Ferrari vs Porsche vs Lamborghini of car audio drivers and in order to do the 2 different passbands, I really need to keep the count very low.

Thanks for everyone that is helping to support this test.


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## ErinH

I've got some ideas in how to implement this. When you're ready for discussion, LMK ...


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## snaimpally

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Update.....
> 
> BuickGN - will send the Dynaudio Esotar2 650's
> snaimpally - will send the Focal Utopia Be's
> d5sc - will send the Audio Technology
> 
> Still looking for the HAT L6se's & Scan Illuminators
> 
> 
> After careful consideration, this particular test will be high end drivers only. I really want this test to be the Ferrari vs Porsche vs Lamborghini of car audio drivers and in order to do the 2 different passbands, I really need to keep the count very low.
> 
> Thanks for everyone that is helping to support this test.


If the Scan Illums are included, you really should also test the Seas W18NX (or the Lotus mids) as they are the best that Seas has to offer and are comparable to the Scan Illums. I don't mind donating mine but if I send those and the Focals, I'll have no mids in my car. Perhaps you have some mids lying around that I could borrow?


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## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This is going to be fun!


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Okay guys......HUGE NEWS (big enough to capitalize )

When you prepare to do a test like this, things that always come up is how the room is going to effect the test or the source or amplifier......well how about this:

Doug at Focus Mastering in Omaha here as agreed to let us use his sound room and equipment for this test. All we have to do is bring the speakers and decided upon enclosure/baffle. 

Here is a pic of the room (treated for a flat response)

























Here is the equipment list in the room (and what we will be using):
Workstation

Sonic Solutions™ USP Digital Audio Workstation w/Full No Noise™ Software
Sony CDW-900e CD Recorders (3) – Exabyte Eliant 8mm tape drives
ProTools LE v7.3 w/002 Rack for playback & Waves Restoration Software Bundle

Mastering Console:
Crookwood custom designed mastering console. Fully integrated analog and digital routing with monitoring section.

Outboard Equipment:
Requisite Audio L2M mkII Mastering Limiter
Manley "Massive Passive" Tube Equalizer
Manley "Variable-Mu" Tube Compressor with M/S and HPF options
Crane Song Ibis Class A Discrete Mastering Equalizer
Crane Song STC-8M Class A Discrete Mastering Compressor
Prism Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor
Pendulum Audio PL-2 Analog Peak Limiter
Weiss EQ1-Linear Phase/Dynamic Double Sampling Digital Equalizer
Weiss DS1-mk3 Double Sampling Digital Compressor/Limiter
Crane Song HEDD 192 Digital Tube & Tape Simulator w/24-bit A/D and D/A Converters
Waves L2 Ultramaximizer Digital Peak Limiter
dbx Quantum Digital Mastering Processor
Weiss SFC2 dual Synchronous Sampling Rate Converter
Quantec Yardstick Reverb Processor

Tape Machines:
Ampex ATR-102 Analog 1/2" 2-Track & 1/4" 2-Track & Quarter-Track (ATR Service)
(Dolby SR or A available [361 units])
Tascam DV-RA1000 High Resolution recorder
Tascam DA-45HR 24-bit DAT Machine
Alesis ML-9600 Masterlink Hard Disk/CD recorder
Sony PCM-1610/1630 with BVU-800 3/4" video deck
Sony PCM-3402 2-Track Digital DASH Machine
Aiwa PCM-F1 2-Track Digital F1 Format Processor

Digital Converters:
Pacific Microsonics Model One HDCD Processor w/24-bit 88.2kHz A/D & D/A Converters
Weiss DAC1-mk2 192kHz/24-bit Digital-to-Analog Converter
Lavry 4496 M.AD824 Analog-to-Digital & (2) M.DA824 Digital-to-Analog Converters
Mytek 8x96 8 channel 24-bit Digital-to-Analog Converters
Parasound DAC-2000 20-bit Digital-to-Analog Converter w/HDCD (Ultra Analog™ components)

Metering:
Mytek DDD-603 Digital Meter
Dorrough 40-A2 Analog Meters
Simpson 4" Analog VU Meters
Metric Halo Labs Spectra Foo √4 Metering Software
HP X-Y Oscillographic Lissajous Display

Monitoring System:
Duntech PCL-2001 Sovereigns powered by: *Krell KSA-250 Class A amplifier*
Dynaudio Acoustics BM5 nearfield monitors powered by: Hafler Pro 230 amplifier
Beyer Dynamic DT 250 headphones powered by: Grace Design m901

See the amp??? Also, the CD will be running through a $7,000 D/A Converter.

*Not only is he kind enough to let us use his room and all the equipment, but he is going to be one of the testers as well.* 

Here is a link to his site:
Focus Mastering

Cool, huh! 

*Now, Still looking for the HAT L6se and the Scan Illuminators!!!*


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## t3sn4f2

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Speaker City sells speakers, drivers, audiophile loud: Utopia Cone 17cm w/butyl Surround/Shielded


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I have a commitment on the Focal Be's, Dyn 650's, AT's....but no one is stepping up yet with the HAT's or Scans.....come on people.....I promise I won't blow them up or steal them....I have references...lol!


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## slowsedan01

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Maybe since this is the Ferrari and Porsche test there should be a BMW, Merceds, and Lexus test afterwards?  I Would love to see some of the budget DIY drivers shoot it out (Peerless, Dayton, Silver Flute, etc...).


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## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Too bad the old model Herz ML 1600 are not included . 
But why not Phass? I see them mentioned in your sig...


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## req

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

In for the testing :-D


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## Huckleberry Sound

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed


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## highly

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Erin has one of my Vifa NE180w's... the one used for the klippel tests. If you are interested he can send you that one and I will send you the other. Just LMK if you are interested in adding them and I'll make it happen.

-Todd


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## jebcamaro

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

How come the Exodus Anarchy is not in this list. Its a fully capable driver. I can loan mine out for the test


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## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Hmm seems like lots of fun......


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## denetnz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Some of these drivers will play lower than others (eg scan). Will the chosen pass bands allow them to demonstrate this? What will the pass bands be?


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## Pad

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Very nice idea!

I wish I could send my Scan's 18S Revelators, but the shipping (from Brazil) makes it economically unviable.

Good luck!


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## Timelessr1

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

subscribed.....


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



req said:


> In for the testing :-D


In as in you are coming to Omaha??? 

Guys, I would love to include all the drivers like the midrange test, but we just can't. 

I had been working on this from the beginning but it was not certain I could source it, but the 6th driver will be a PHASS driver donated by Don Gibson. We will have the driver model for you guys shortly. This is it, just 6 drivers, which means 24 listening sessions (6 X 2 passbands and we always run through the drivers 2 times for accuracy). 

Again, anyone wanting to come to Omaha and be a part is welcome. I will provide pizza during the test, the rest would be up to you.

Lastly, the passbands have not been fully determined yet, but I can tell you it will extend down for any of the drivers to flex their muscle (if they have any). I will post the 2 different passbands when they have been decided.

Now, where are my Illuminator guys and Hybrid se guys???

*Oh, and where are the comments about the testing environment....I know some of you had to change your short after seeing it and reading the equipment list!!!*


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## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Don't remember, in the 4" shootout, you guyz only tested one (1) driver and not a pair (2)? 
Coz I see some posts about people willing to send 1 driver only. Just sounds strange...

Good to see the Focal Be in the test. Can't wait to see how it turns out... 

Amazing place and equipment  Wish I was living in the US to be part of the shootout. 

Kelvin


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



subwoofery said:


> Don't remember, in the 4" shootout, you guyz only tested one (1) driver and not a pair (2)?
> Coz I see some posts about people willing to send 1 driver only. Just sounds strange...
> 
> Kelvin


Nope, we tested a pair. Only 1 would be impossible to determine many aspects of how it sounds.


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## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That's what I tought  

Kelvin


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## Jaloosk

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed


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## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It'd be intresting to see a JL ZR in the mix...


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## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



adrenalinejunkie said:


> It'd be intresting to see a JL ZR in the mix...


And I would love to see an Arc Audio Black 6, Hertz Ml165, older Hertz Ml1600, Micro Precision Z-studio 6 inch midbass (this one I could actually see getting real consideration actually), Morel Supremo 6, etc... I can totally understand where Niebur3 is coming from here. It could get real tedious real quick if he starting adding every driver asked to be included here. 

I do agree that this could very well be cream de la cream of midbasses here with the possible exclusion of the above z-studio and possibly Morel Supremo (especially if the new model could be had...). I propose we all wait and see what this testing/listening session brings and maybe do another and another with other (lower level?) drivers at a later date if the first is a successful venture (which I believe it will be).

I wish I could get down there but sadly it is just too far for me. All of the good car audio areas are just too far it appears.


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## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

From what I've read, the Acoustic Elegance TDH6 might very well be in the same league as others chosen in the test. 
If one of the Illum or L6SE doesn't make it, please consider the TDH6  ...although I'd like to see the Illum AND the L6SE make it 

Kelvin


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## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I think jerry may actually be shooting for something a bit different than what you guys are thinking. It seems to me that Jerry is purposely picking some of the more 'high end' drivers that test well but similar in their own rights and doing his subjective evaluations to see if:
a) there is audibility between driver characteristics
b) (part of a) to see just how the measurements may shed some light on what you hear


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## Guido_b

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed... This is why I love this forum. I wish I could offer up some drivers but I don't have any of the ones selected.


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## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, I can help you with scan pricing but that's the best I can really offer.


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## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> In as in you are coming to Omaha???
> 
> Guys, I would love to include all the drivers like the midrange test, but we just can't.
> 
> I had been working on this from the beginning but it was not certain I could source it, but the 6th driver will be a PHASS driver donated by Don Gibson. We will have the driver model for you guys shortly. This is it, just 6 drivers, which means 24 listening sessions (6 X 2 passbands and we always run through the drivers 2 times for accuracy).
> 
> Again, anyone wanting to come to Omaha and be a part is welcome. I will provide pizza during the test, the rest would be up to you.
> 
> Lastly, the passbands have not been fully determined yet, but I can tell you it will extend down for any of the drivers to flex their muscle (if they have any). I will post the 2 different passbands when they have been decided.
> 
> Now, where are my Illuminator guys and Hybrid se guys???
> 
> *Oh, and where are the comments about the testing environment....I know some of you had to change your short after seeing it and reading the equipment list!!!*



I'd personally really like to be able to test these so you have data to go with the subjective tests. I've tested the l6se. not in the same format as with the others (iow, not with the klippel) but I do have sound easy data on it in regards to HD and FR. Nothing on the Phass. I need to stop testing but if we could get something quick, I could get it done and back out to you.


----------



## claytonzmvox

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

acompanhando!!!!!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> I think jerry may actually be shooting for something a bit different than what you guys are thinking. It seems to me that Jerry is purposely picking some of the more 'high end' drivers that test well but similar in their own rights and doing his subjective evaluations to see if:
> a) there is audibility between driver characteristics
> b) (part of a) to see just how the measurements may shed some light on what you hear


For the most part.....BINGO!!!!

We wanted to match up the best of the best but also the ones Erin just tested to see what Erin said....how the measurements correspond to what you hear. 

I have HAT SE's promised, but money is needed to get them here.....donations for this test can be made to [email protected] via PayPal. Anything would help the member that are sending their drivers. 

Also, I did see some nice suggestions above, so maybe a 2nd test would be possible down the road.


----------



## rain27

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Se7en said:


> Subscribed...
> 
> Since some of the drivers featured here are rather full figured, I'd like to twist your arm into considering the Exodus Anarchy.


Full figured, as in pricey?

If so, I would agree. I've owned a few of the speakers being tested and they all perform well, as you would expect.

But a cheap alternative known for solid performance would have been interesting, especially if it earned some respect in the process. Not that they need validation, but it would have been fun nevertheless.

Nothing against the test (well, maybe a little ), but leaving it only to high priced speakers leaves out a pretty big crowd around here either unwilling or unable to buy them.

But it's all in good fun, so it will be cool to see the results.

I know you're a Dynaudio guy, Jerry, so it'll be interesting if you choose something that surprises you.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm really looking forward to the blind subjective test vs Klippel. Even though it might mean my Dyn 650s aren't the best it would be nice if some of the numbers could be linked to SQ. 

I'm also glad two passbands are used. It should be neat to see how the Scans do against all others since they have 2-4x the throw. There's no doubt they will get louder down low but I wonder if that means much at an SPL all drivers are capable of.


----------



## rain27

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



t3sn4f2 said:


> Speaker City sells speakers, drivers, audiophile loud: Utopia Cone 17cm w/butyl Surround/Shielded


Good choice. Are they identical to the car audio Utopia Be 6w2 driver? If so, why are they so much cheaper?


----------



## JimAckley

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

How would you feel about a set of Polk SR 6.5" or JBL C608gti 6.5" added to the mix? When are you planning on doing the shootout?

If these aren't "high end" enough, just say so, my feelings won't be hurt, haha. I just figured I'd throw out the offer.


----------



## Awdtalon92

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That room is AMAZING.


----------



## GRIFTER9931

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This looks like it will be interesting


----------



## ESW

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed!!!


----------



## t3sn4f2

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



rain27 said:


> Good choice. Are they identical to the car audio Utopia Be 6w2 driver? If so, why are they so much cheaper?


They're different. These are the ones npdang used to rave about back then. They are 10 ohms though. I think there is a full klippel report on them somewhere in here, or at least part of one in his for sale thread on them and his MS-8.


----------



## TheHulk9er

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I just bought a set of the old Hertz ML1600's that I would love to see tested but I'm not sure I want to part with them.  Given the responses it looks like you all have decided to keep it closed to the drivers you already have coming.  Or I could send my new ML1600 after I replace them with the Old ML1600? (that last sentence is really confusing).


----------



## WLDock

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Here is a pic of the room (treated for a flat response)


Wow, I would almost be willing to make the 13 hour drive each way to be a part of this. These type of opps just don't come up everyday....


----------



## its_bacon12

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Can that equipment be wheeled out? It seems like it would have some ugly interference with the speakers when sitting on that couch listening.


----------



## TheHulk9er

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



its_bacon12 said:


> Can that equipment be wheeled out? It seems like it would have some ugly interference with the speakers when sitting on that couch listening.


Tell them they can wheel it out of there and store it at my house as long as they want!


----------



## WLDock

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



its_bacon12 said:


> Can that equipment be wheeled out? It seems like it would have some ugly interference with the speakers when sitting on that couch listening.


These guys do this for a living.... just look at their projects: Wes Lachot Design || Recording Studio Design and Acoustic Consulting They designed the studio! 

Wes Lachot Design || Recording Studio Design and Acoustic Consulting
Focus Mastering


> *FOCUS MASTERING* - Omaha, Nebraska
> [This facility, owned by nationally known mastering engineer Doug Van Sloun, features a custom Crookwood console and Duntech PCL-1100 Princess loudspeakers. *The mastering room comprises over 6300 cubic feet, and utilizes velocity-type bass trapping as well as the new RPG pressure zone bass trapping for smooth, extended low frequency response. The reflection free zone extends all the way to the client couch and provides a wide, accurate, and enveloping sound field.* It's the only one of it's kind in Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, North Dakota, and South Dakota
> 
> The RPG Diffractal diffusors have been carefully balanced with absorptive and reflective surfaces in order to keep the room sounding lively yet controlled. Floors, trim, and diffusors are done in red oak. Acoustic treatments were installed by Matt Call of Auralex Acoustics and Tony Brett of Wes Lachot Design.
> 
> The Duntechs are powered by a Krell KSA-250 class A amplifier.


I would love to be there for this..even if I had to sit in the far corner of the room! What a very cool opportunity.


Recording studio design is waaays out of my league....that's all I'm sayin'!


----------



## robert_wrath

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This is gonna be a Sick Shootout!


----------



## Se7en

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I actually meant full figured in that they're mostly large format, some of them with magnets and basket structures that make them prohibitively large for door installs. The Anarchy with it's 3.7" mounting depth, but excellent sound, came to mind.



rain27 said:


> Full figured, as in pricey?
> 
> If so, I would agree. I've owned a few of the speakers being tested and they all perform well, as you would expect.
> 
> But a cheap alternative known for solid performance would have been interesting, especially if it earned some respect in the process. Not that they need validation, but it would have been fun nevertheless.
> 
> Nothing against the test (well, maybe a little ), but leaving it only to high priced speakers leaves out a pretty big crowd around here either unwilling or unable to buy them.
> 
> But it's all in good fun, so it will be cool to see the results.
> 
> I know you're a Dynaudio guy, Jerry, so it'll be interesting if you choose something that surprises you.


----------



## fahrfrompuken

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Looking forward to the results of this test.


----------



## Beato

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Okay guys......HUGE NEWS (big enough to capitalize )
> 
> When you prepare to do a test like this, things that always come up is how the room is going to effect the test or the source or amplifier......well how about this:
> 
> Doug at Focus Mastering in Omaha here as agreed to let us use his sound room and equipment for this test. All we have to do is bring the speakers and decided upon enclosure/baffle.
> 
> Here is a pic of the room (treated for a flat response)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/niebur3[/QUOTE]
> 
> [B]W O W...Geeeeezuuuzzz[/B]
> How cool is that to be able to use a room like this. Awesome. The company that helped design this room also help with Manifold Studios?
> 
> It would take about one week full time going through the build log of Manifold! Utterly insane project in every way.
> 
> Multi million dollar studio.:cool:
> [url=http://blog.miraverse.com/2008/01/]2008 January « Manifold Recording / The Miraverse[/url]


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, you really went all-out on this one! That studio is awesome!

I can also understand you wanting to keep the driver selection small, after remembering what kind of hell you said you went through on the last test. 

I'll send you some funds to help out, but it won't be much.

I will add, out of the other drivers that have been mentioned to add to the test I'd vote for the 18 Sound 6ND430.


----------



## ErinH

A Hybrid L6SE is on its way to me to test and I'll be sending to Jerry after. 




Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## Lunchbox12

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That studio looks sick. I'm subscribing.


----------



## south east customz

Jerry If you want to add a set of sex black 6's, I can send them to you.
Just let me know!


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, I've been holding on to some ideas/thoughts/whatever for a little bit now but wanted to go ahead and do a brain dump while it's fresh. we can revisit later. you're going to get inundated with input so I might as well start, lol.

These are very brief snippets of my thoughts. I don't want to drive you nuts with all the details until you're ready to discuss. I do, however, want to get you and a few others thinking about just what you're trying to do and what might be the best way to do it.

*Install:*
Your biggest issue is deciding how you want to test these, just like with the midrange shootout. I think this test, however, is a bit different. For a 6-7" driver, we expect some amount of midbass. And most car audio guys are using these drivers in their doors. So, no real enclosure to speak of. I'd suggest testing the drivers free air to give a more realistic representation of how they will perform. You can, of course, build a test enclosure for each but I think that grossly overstates how the majority of users on this site will be using them.

My final suggestion would be to use a large baffle that includes ALL the drivers and a switching box to switch between drivers. That way all are mounted on the same baffle (which, absolutely, affects the frequency response) and, more importantly, can quickly and easily be switched between. My issue is more with the ability to quickly swap drivers between testing. At least on an A/B front. A large baffle (size will be at least 3x3 ft) will allow you to mount all the drivers on the same baffle and then switch the speaker by a speaker box switch. You'd have to account for relative sensitivity, but that's actually another topic in and of itself (I think level matching can sometimes invalidate a particular benefit of a driver). 
The shape and size of the baffle will mean that you'd have a different baffle step for each driver, but if you are serious about doing this then I'd suggest adding a BSC circuit to each speaker and you're set. It's simply a compensation circuit for the baffle itself and will do nothing to change the speaker response. In fact, doing this will, IMO, leave ZERO room for error and no one will be able to pick apart your method. 
So, to wrap up how I'd go about the physical mounting:

A large "infinite" baffle of at least 3x3', with actual size to be determined after some simulation with EDGE software.
All drivers on this same baffle.
All drivers for left and right set up on a speaker selector so that you can very quickly switch drivers in mid-test negating the hearing memory issue between tests due to speaker setup(s).
A baffle step compensation circuit to account for the baffle step/edge diffraction so you then have a fair apples to apples comparison of every driver.
Level matching potentially being built in to the circuit itself. Again, this leaves no room for error. All speakers have the same SPL level. But, again, I think this also invalidates a driver which has higher sensitivity and is often seen as a great characteristic.

Each set of drivers would be easily swapped, each would be level matched, each would have a correction circuit to account for the baffle itself. What you would be left with then is the driver's frequency response and distortion parameters. 

Look here for information on baffle step simulation. You can quickly and easily see where and how you can account for this and get a much more apples to apples comparison:
Home of the Edge
I'm happy to help you resolve this. Just choose a baffle, determine where you will be sitting relative to the baffle, draw out where you want to mount each driver on the baffles, sim it, and get EDGE to tell you the BSC circuit to correct for it. It will require a bit of soldering and parts acquiring but I'm sure someone here wouldn't mind building the circuits for you if we just give them the specifics. 

*Crossover*
We always see people asking how low a driver can be crossed. 
I'm of the opinion that, if nothing else, there should be no HPF involved. This may not be terribly realistic of how everyone will install their drivers but many here want to cross as low as possible. It's a trickier area to me than free air vs enclosure. You might even want to start a very generic poll asking only what frequency people use to cross their midbass on the low end and then supplement that question with "why". I think the bearing of this test will be dependent upon the "why", rather than the "what".

On the high end I'd recommend a nominal crossover of 3-4khz. You're looking at this from a midwoofer perspective. Not a wideband perspective. Some home audio folks might argue this is too high, and I'd personally agree. IMO, you really shouldn't cross higher than 3khz for a 6/7" driver but most here do and that should be taken in to account and try to get a little bit more. Though, some don't cross higher than midbass range (under 500hz). It's something worth further discussion but I suggest just keeping it all in perspective: we all want a driver that has great low end extension with the ability to mate with a tweeter; and again, this isn't a wideband, one driver solution test.

Maybe you might be willing to do the testing with varying crossover points. Such as a test with no high pass, and a test with the HPF at 80hz. Mix and match as you see fit. I'm just trying to consider how much it's going to be a job for you to do this in a way that makes sense and is relatable to us all.

So, to summarize my thoughts on this:

No HPF. This also goes hand in hand with using no box. You won't have to worry about anything in the mechanical region other than the drivers' capabilities on the low end and that's _exactly_ what everyone will expect to have discussion on anyway. Using a box makes it much less applicable to us as hardly anyone uses one and every box would have to be different and tailored. For a midrange, that's okay because people are willing to do it. Not so much for a woofer.
LPF between 3khz to 4khz with 24dB slope. This keeps the driver within a good polar response (for the most part) and will help you really determine the worth of a driver in a midwoofer bandpass. Some drivers might be engineered to have surround resonance outside this passband and kudos to them if so. Some might have it smack in this passband and that's their design issue. 

No test should be tailored around any driver at all. I can pick apart things I've said here that some drivers might not do well with or might not have the chance to show off their benefits, but so be it. It's a midrange/bass test. Not a subwoofer or wideband midrange test.
I'm not at all implying you would do this, but keep it in mind when people start throwing out suggestions. Just as I have. 



Again, this is sort of off the top of the dome and would require further discussion to nail anything down. But, I think it's a good path forward.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

of course, there's always the option of using a single driver per baffle and just dealing with the downside of having that period of no music when switching out drivers on the baffle. you lose the ability to quickly a/b but you gain the ability of being able to say that all had the exact same mounting method therefore baffle step is the same. 

you could go the route I did with the test baffle where you have one large baffle and a cutout square that allows you to simply swap drivers in and out of place via a square. makes life super easy. masking tape could fill in gaps between the square swappable blanks and the large baffle. 

above, I was suggesting just putting them all on the same baffle, in a cluster. 

make sense?


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> So, to summarize my thoughts on this:
> 
> No HPF. This also goes hand in hand with using no box. You won't have to worry about anything in the mechanical region other than the drivers' capabilities on the low end and that's _exactly_ what everyone will expect to have discussion on anyway. Using a box makes it much less applicable to us as hardly anyone uses one and every box would have to be different and tailored. For a midrange, that's okay because people are willing to do it. Not so much for a woofer.
> LPF between 3khz to 4khz with 24dB slope. This keeps the driver within a good polar response (for the most part) and will help you really determine the worth of a driver in a midwoofer bandpass. Some drivers might be engineered to have surround resonance outside this passband and kudos to them if so. Some might have it smack in this passband and that's their design issue.
> 
> No test should be tailored around any driver at all. I can pick apart things I've said here that some drivers might not do well with or might not have the chance to show off their benefits, but so be it. It's a midrange/bass test. Not a subwoofer or wideband midrange test.
> I'm not at all implying you would do this, but keep it in mind when people start throwing out suggestions. Just as I have.


Agreed on all 3 points  

Wonder why this hasn't got more discussion... Bump 

Kelvin


----------



## GLN305

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Just an idea, but why not make an enclosure that's around 4 cubic feet and test the drivers in that . That will come close to simulating a car door and not require considering rear waves.


----------



## KP

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

For two way, they gotta play to 4K.

For midbass, 45.

45-4K is my vote. 45 is on the low side, 4K is on the high side.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



AcuraTLSQ said:


> For two way, they gotta play to 4K.
> 
> For midbass, 45.
> 
> 45-4K is my vote. 45 is on the low side, 4K is on the high side.


Please add more info... 
Why 4kHz on the high side? 
Why 45Hz on the low side? 

Kelvin


----------



## SSSnake

3 or 4 kHz is not that large a difference. Either would work for me. 4khz would provide a little more insight into cone breakup audibility. The bigger issue IMO is the high pass. I can see no high pass causing audible issues that would likely not be there in most applications. There aren't too many of us that run wo subs. IMO 45hz is a pretty stressing low pass but does give a driver a chance to show off the low end grunt. My recommendation is 45hz with 24db per octave L-R Xover and 4khz again with 24db per octave L-R Xover.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



GLN305 said:


> Just an idea, but why not make an enclosure that's around 4 cubic feet and test the drivers in that . That will come close to simulating a car door and not require considering rear waves.





SSSnake said:


> 3 or 4 kHz is not that large a difference. Either would work for me. 4khz would provide a little more insight into cone breakup audibility. The bigger issue IMO is the high pass. I can see no high pass causing audible issues that would likely not be there in most applications. There aren't too many of us that run wo subs. IMO 45hz is a pretty stressing low pass but does give a driver a chance to show off the low end grunt. My recommendation is 45hz with 24db per octave L-R Xover and 4khz again with 24db per octave L-R Xover.



Agreed. Good points.

If you go with a very large enclosure, it needs to be proven that the impedance is not affected. That's pretty simple to do, though. Attach the driver to a baffle and sweep it. Then attach that baffle piece with the driver to the enclosure and sweep it. If it changed, it's different. If it didn't, it's enough to still consider free-air. 

There's the 'issue' of having backwaves coming in toward the driver but it still provides a more real world situation.


----------



## SSSnake

Again IMO open baffle would be the better approach as doors are at best very leaky enclosures and vary in volume quite a bit (think 4 door compact vs large 2 door coupe). If you want to try and address reflections/ back waves through the cone you could mount a panel behind the drivers to provide a reflective surface. Probably in the neighborhood of 4 inches from the baffle where the speakers are mounted.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

*Still looking for the ScanSpeak Illuminators.....anyone???*

Oh, and thanks to all who have donated funds so far for the shipping of the speakers. Anyone else wanting to donate, please send the donation to [email protected].

Thanks


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry,

Although they are not the Illuminator or standard ScanSpeak home audio version(s), I do have a pair of the Genesis variants of the ScanSpeak Revelator 18Ws that can be used for the listening tests. They are BNIB and have not been powered up.

Please let me know if you would think these would be suitable candidates for the listening tests *if* the Illuminator series are not available. If so, then I will ship the Genesis 18Ws along with the Audio Technology 18Hs.

Hope this helps a little...

Thanks,

George


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^Cool. Still hoping for the Illums, but if not, we may go ahead and use these!

Thanks


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

From Peter Lufrano, regarding the differences between the Genesis and home audio versions of the 18Ws:

"Hi George,

The Absolute 18w is based on the Scanspeak Revelator woofer, not the Newer Illuminator series.

The main differences between the Absolute version and the Scanspeak Revelator is the Absolute design has a higher Fs (resonant frequency) and a different suspension design which have been optimized for free air applications.

The newer Illuminator drivers are considerably different designs which are not obviously related to the Revelator drivers, although there are in fact a great many less obvious similarities.

Best Regards,

Peter Lufrano"


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> ^^^Cool. Still hoping for the Illums, but if not, we may go ahead and use these!
> 
> Thanks


Cool, just let me know and I will send them over if needed...

Thanks,

George


----------



## s4turn

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

would be nice to add a 7" rev or the above driver and see how they stack up against the other high end ones?  

Sub'ed


----------



## denetnz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I agree with most of the suggestions around test bands 45-4k and I am pleased to see support for letting them play low (since we all love that in a midbass).

If I could just play the devil's advocate here for a minute, I think one of the biggest challenges to all subjective speaker comparisons is that 95% of us are likely to be applying significant EQ processing to try to account for non linearities of any chosen driver in our car environment. 

It is very easy to hear one speaker and say 'I can hear this extra detail' and another and say 'I can hear that extra detail', but how much of this is simply due to non linearities that 95% of us are going to EQ away into insignificance? To a large degree, one could just as easily show 'this extra detail' or 'that extra detail' by changing EQ settings. Where FR is not linear, one sound can simply mask another sound.

We are going to be level matching the drivers (which is of great importance - tests have shown that even the slightest difference (0.2db) will sway the outcome one way or another), but will we be matching A, B, C, D or Z weighted levels? Should we be EQ matching also? 

I think it would be really interesting to do such a test with each driver eq'd flat as best as possible - perhaps just with a 31 band graphic (the resolution that most of us have available), such that each driver was level matched for each third octave band. A tough ask I know - but that studio does look pretty flash!


----------



## subiemax

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subed


----------



## mark620

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Look like this will be great...subscribed


----------



## Pimpnyou204

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Thats a damn nice room!

I agree on on the LP of 45 mainly bcuz of the fact that its only fair to let the bigger drivers get an edge in something and while your testing go up to about 60 and do a quick test of how it is for the average person in a 2/3way xet up


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I believe there's an old thread/poll with hundreds of responses of regarding everyone's midbass highpass. It might not be a bad idea to use the most popular ones since we're doing two pass bands anyway. Maybe one 50hz and one 80hz or whatever is most common. 

I might be wrong but it seems like most of the people that like to run the midbass down to 50hz also lowpass pretty low as well and the people that use a higher highpass use a higher lowpass. Obviously not always true but that's the pattern I think I see. I fit the description, I like to run my midbasses from 90hz to anywhere between 600 and 1,600hz in my 3 way setup.


----------



## xxx_busa

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Which PHASS DRIVER ? the MW 6512AL-N / Mid bass or the FD 0790,
both fine drivers.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Still looking for the Scan Illums???? Anyone???


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Shoot me a PM...
I just picked up a set of 18WU Illuminators that I'll lend for this.
Also have a set of 18W Revelators if you want to add them in the test.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

PM sent....awesome!!!


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Does that mean the rev will be included? I hope so!


----------



## WLDock

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Aw Snap! Looks like we have some Illums and Revs...its on!


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Sorry to hijack for a bit...
I just picked up the Illuminators today and pulled out the Rev's to compare them side by side. Illums are pretty damn huge.


















More pics here: Scan Illum & Revelator


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^I still want to know how the hell Erin fit those in the kicks of a civic...lol


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Is it safe to assume that those are not fitting in any automotive door without serious modification?


----------



## KP

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Something to keep in mind for sure. Everything has a trade off.


----------



## ErinH

BuickGN said:


> Is it safe to assume that those are not fitting in any automotive door without serious modification?


George has them in his s2000 doors and Charles has them in the kick area of his caddy. No idea how much modification was needed in either application but im sure there was at least some. Charles already cut metal for his AE's. Those suckers are ridiculously deep but the magnet diameter is small so they actually fit in some places other driers not as deep may not. 




Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## southpawskater

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed!!!!!!!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Getting a WT3 in here soon thanks to: danno14


----------



## ErinH

if you're interested I'd be willing to loan you my omnimic setup if I haven't found you one by then.
Keep it in mind. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## imminentdomain

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed! :wideeyed:


----------



## nigeDLS

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Would ya hurry up and do the test already, i'm itching to buy some new midbassses!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Lol...patience, grasshopper!


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Lol...patience, grasshopper!


Fo' Sho' !!!

Definitely don't want to rip up the rice paper while trying to pass the test:

"When you can walk the rice paper without tearing it, then your steps will not be heard." -Master Kan;


----------



## avanti1960

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This is an incredible test and I'm thankful to everyone supporting and conducting it. 
I'm just a little concerned that some of these drivers are too large to fit in many car doors. I will be nice to see the comparisons, especially the link between test data and subjective preferences, but not being able to realistically install them will be a bummer. 
Also, since there are a limited number of drivers, it might be easy and interesting to rate them at multiple LPF and HPF settings, e.g. rate each at HPFs comparable to most flexible HUs- 31hz, 50hz, 80hz. 
Since lots of installs use 2-way setups (mine included, I am maxxed out running all 8 channels including rear fill and cannot run 3-way up front) it would also be nice to see their capabilities at multiple LPF points- e.g. 3K, 4K and 5K. Many drivers of this size peak and break at around 3.1K or so yet (for some reason) offer passive crossovers that cross well above this. It would be nice to rate their extended mid-range capabilities as part of the comparison. 

I also agree with the open baffle, A-B switchable setup. Aural memory is very short lived. 
Ideally you would want a setup of multiple leaky car doors as enclosures but that is probably not going to happen! 

Good luck and thanks again!


----------



## Z-Roc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed!!!!!!!


----------



## ariko81

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscrizzle. Illuminators are gonna put a hole in the side of my car. Same hole's in my wallet. Like em.


----------



## BMWTUBED

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Man, I've got frequent flyer miles just burning a hole in my pocket! Would love to participate in this... has a date been set?


----------



## oilman

Subscribed


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BMWTUBED said:


> Man, I've got frequent flyer miles just burning a hole in my pocket! Would love to participate in this... has a date been set?


Getting closer on the date. I will probably be putting the call out for the drivers in the next 1-2 weeks.


----------



## Z-Roc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

can't wait to see the results


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Getting closer on the date. I will probably be putting the call out for the drivers in the next 1-2 weeks.


Jerry,

As of now, the installation of the AT 18Hs in my new commuter car has been pushed out another two to three weeks or perhaps a little longer due to plan updates/changes and scheduling time with Peter Lufrano to tune the system. The tuning time/dates will also affect the installation completion date as some of the speaker locations are still in flux and will only be finalized only during/after the tuning.

Based on this, it looks I will not be able to send the speakers within proposed time frame listed above. However, I would like to send them out as soon as the installation and tuning is completed. The speakers will have been fully broken-in with the Klippel testing completed by Erin and the tuning session(s).

So, how long do you estimate it will take to prep the drivers (burn-in) and get the testing gear ready, and, afterwards, how far out do you anticipate the actual listening session will be (scheduled)? You had mentioned sixty days as the approximate time that you will need to have the drivers.

My apologies in advance as the shop and I were expecting the installation to have been completed sooner than this. Hopefully, everything will be completed in time so the drivers can used for the listening session.

Thank you,

George


----------



## Brasil

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Don't think I can wait that long to replace my blown mid-woof--but I'm still fascinated by the testing. 

The only one that fits in my door anyway is the 650 and maybe the Focal.


----------



## jimbno1

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I know you are leaving out some drivers since you can't test everything. But I would like to know how the JBL 660GTi would stack up, and the 18 sound too. 

When you do this how do you score it? Does everyone just give fill out a score card and comments without talking amongst yourselves and then you compile them? 

Thanks for doing this again.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I just put the call out for all the speakers. We are tentatively setting the first weekend in June for the test (2nd & 3rd). If that doesn't work, it will hopefully be 2 weeks after that.

Oh, and I have another announcement. This was the plan from day 1, I just didn't know the model number and availability, but the PHASS MD0790 is confirmed to be in the test!


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> I just put the call out for all the speakers. We are tentatively setting the first weekend in June for the test (2nd & 3rd). If that doesn't work, it will hopefully be 2 weeks after that.
> 
> Oh, and I have another announcement. This was the plan from day 1, I just didn't know the model number and availability, but the PHASS MD0790 is confirmed to be in the test!


Sweet! I'm running the MD0790's right now, so looking forward to see how they're received in this test.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Really looking forward to this test as I think I am in the market for a new set of midbass. Leaning towards Dyn or the new Morel line but what models? I need to figure out what will fit and if it is worth the trouble. A 6-7 inch would drop in easy so really looking forward to this test. Decisions, decisions and no money blah! I guess this is what credit cards are for


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> I just put the call out for all the speakers. We are tentatively setting the first weekend in June for the test (2nd & 3rd). If that doesn't work, it will hopefully be 2 weeks after that.
> 
> Oh, and I have another announcement. This was the plan from day 1, I just didn't know the model number and availability, but the PHASS MD0790 is confirmed to be in the test!


Looking forward to it, thanks in advance, Jerry. As you know I'm in a holding pattern with finances due to money being stolen from me but I can probably donate a few bucks if needed.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'll be happy to provide assistance in any way I can. Just lmk.


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry,

A small donation and pre-payment for the return shipping fee(s) for the AT drivers have been sent to your [email protected] PayPal account.

Thank you very much for coordinating and conducting the listening test/shootout. It is very much appreciated!

Thank you,

George

P.S.

I will be sending you a return mailing address for the AT drivers in a little while.


----------



## claytonzmvox

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Use the peerless sls 830946. I love them. I wonder if the 830946 enter this list of good midbasses?


----------



## ousooner2

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, you know you want to add the cxs62's from ID in there hahah. 




....I don't want to spend more money as a result of tests coming back. "In dead last....".


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



d5sc said:


> Jerry,
> 
> A small donation and pre-payment for the return shipping fee(s) for the AT drivers have been sent to your [email protected] PayPal account.
> 
> Thank you very much for coordinating and conducting the listening test/shootout. It is very much appreciated!
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> George
> 
> P.S.
> 
> I will be sending you a return mailing address for the AT drivers in a little while.


A small donation? It looked VERY generous to me. Thanks a lot, all the donations I have received thus far should ensure the return of all drivers. Thanks to all who have donated.


----------



## damonryoung

Sub'd


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> A small donation? It looked VERY generous to me. Thanks a lot, all the donations I have received thus far should ensure the return of all drivers. Thanks to all who have donated.


You're welcome and it's good to hear that the shipping expenses have been covered.

Thanks,

George


----------



## Sound Suggestions

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Hopefully this test is still in the making! I was the first to subscribe and I must of unsubscribe by accident. Had the Hybrid L6se's installed in my 2011 Ford F150 and used as I dedicated midbass drivers. Now I'm looking to install these in my new to me BMW 323i ( e90 ) under the seat...wondering a: will they fit there and b: how will they perform again as midbass duty...the mids and highs are being handled by the L3se, sounded pretty good in the old Ford....looking forward to this test and I would like to extend my gratitude to all that have unselfishly donated their beloved gear for this test to go on!


----------



## Miller319

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribed!


----------



## DonH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

subscribed for this


----------



## m0sdef

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That is a sick sound room! Can't wait to see the results of the Shootout.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If this test is still happening, I have an extra pair of new Seas W18NX laying around that I can send in if snaimpally isn't sending his. I will pay for shipping both ways and I'll even pay for all of the pizza if these are included in the test. ;-)

If they were still readily available, I would really like to see the Mids from the Pioneer/Premier TS-C720PRS set included in this test just for S&G's to see how they'd hold-up. I have a pair of these I could send as well. ;-) But I'd rather see one or two of the currently available ProSound drivers that were previously mentioned included in the test first.

...Understood that we gotta keep it limited to the best of the best, though, and the current lineup is excellent. But I really do feel that the W18NX should be included here.

LMK

email is best: bbfoto AT hotmail DOT com

Billy B.


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I suppose I should subscribe to this .....


Did my recent contribution arrive in good condition?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Yes it did. I am still waiting on one of the pairs. They should arrive next week and then we can get this test going....lol!


----------



## GlasSman

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> If this test is still happening, I have an extra pair of new Seas W18NX laying around that I can send in if snaimpally isn't sending his. I will pay for shipping both ways and I'll even pay for all of the pizza if these are included in the test. ;-)
> 
> If they were still readily available, I would really like to see the Mids from the Pioneer/Premier TS-C720PRS set included in this test just for S&G's to see how they'd hold-up. I have a pair of these I could send as well. ;-) But I'd rather see one or two of the currently available ProSound drivers that were previously mentioned included in the test first.
> 
> ...Understood that we gotta keep it limited to the best of the best, though, and the current lineup is excellent. But I really do feel that the W18NX should be included here.
> 
> 
> Billy B.


Maybe once the tests are completed there could be a second shootout of the more popular drivers or anything people want to donate.

If theres a wide variety of drivers price wise they can either be tested as groups to be fair and also as a free for all since expensive doesn't always mean superior.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



GlasSman said:


> Maybe once the tests are completed there could be a second shootout of the more popular drivers or anything people want to donate.
> 
> If theres a wide variety of drivers price wise they can either be tested as groups to be fair and also as a free for all since expensive doesn't always mean superior.


I will consider it. Again, these speakers weren't chosen just for their price, but because of how well they did on the Klippel (AT, Scan, & Dyn) and I don't think the klippel has an entry for price.


----------



## Lance_S

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

mmmm, what about the Massive Audio RK6's. Would you be interested in testing them? Depending on how long you might need them, I could box them up and ship them out.

Lance


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

No thanks. Again this test will be limited to 6 drivers, all very high-end offerings that all seemed to klippel very well.


----------



## snaimpally

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> No thanks. Again this test will be limited to 6 drivers, all very high-end offerings that all seemed to klippel very well.


Note: I offered Jerry the Rainbow Platinum mids (that I had bought from him and that he had competed with) and he turned me down - LOL! Something about keeping the number of drivers manageable. 

Any updates? This weekend? Next weekend?


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> No thanks. Again this test will be limited to 6 drivers, all very high-end offerings that all seemed to klippel very well.


Even though I would love to see a ton of drivers tested, I think this is a very good idea. All high end, all known to sound great and most importantly, all Klippeled well. Will we find a definite link between good Klippel results and good sound?

Do you have a guess as to which month this might go down?


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> No thanks. Again this test will be limited to 6 drivers, all very high-end offerings that all seemed to klippel very well.





Niebur3 said:


> Oh, and I have another announcement. This was the plan from day 1, I just didn't know the model number and availability, but the PHASS MD0790 is confirmed to be in the test!


Did I miss the Klippel post about the PHASS MD0790?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Sorry, that driver was too late to the party to get tested but has rendered much attention with its Alnico magnet system. The decision to include them was made a couple days after this thread started. 

This should take place the weekend of the 23rd or 30th.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Wesayso said:


> Did I miss the Klippel post about the PHASS MD0790?


I tried to get some Phass drivers to klippel a while back. Spoke with Buzzman about it, but it never grew legs. And, unfortunately, there won't really be anything to correlate back to in regards to Jerry's testing of the driver. Given what I've seen of drivers, there's really not much I trust in regards to spec'd xmax anymore. Otherwise, FR is usually pretty honest from most mfg's so we might be able to hang our hat on that. No IMD/HD testing that I know of, though. So, FR is pretty much all you have, assuming the mfg provides this somewhere; I've not looked.


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm not opposed to sending my MD0790's to Red Rock Acoustics for klippel testing, if there's some mystique/interest about them after this comparo is complete.


----------



## Lunchbox12

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



ISTundra said:


> I'm not opposed to sending my MD0790's to Red Rock Acoustics for klippel testing, if there's some mystique/interest about them after this comparo is complete.


Great suggestion!


----------



## lizardking

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Subscribe....when is this thing set to begin?


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



lizardking said:


> Subscribe....when is this thing set to begin?


Answer to your question is on this page. 

Kelvin


----------



## lizardking

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Just seen that, thanks, didn't want to go through the entire thread.


----------



## snaimpally

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

So, is it happening this weekend ... or next weekend? Anxious to get my woofers back. I think they must be paying rent to Jerry by now.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I need to make sure everyone who donated speakers for this test is okay with the new time table. I actually stopped at the recording studio yesterday after sending a couple email and hearing nothing back. He is absolutely swamped and the 1st weekend he has available is July 21st, which I has him ink. So, it is absolutely going to happen then, I just hope everyone will be okay with that time frame.

Also, looking for a Focal Crossblock for the test as well. Anyone have one of those lying around?!?

BTW, if the timing doesn't work, PM me and I'll get the speakers sent back. I apologize for all the delays. It is a little harder to coordinate when you are at the mercy of another.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I suppose this is a good time to mention...
I'm getting a Klippel of my own soon.

I'm baaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaack (with the Klippel)

So, regarding the testing of the Phass driver, it looks like that should be doable and maybe before this test starts off.

If anything changes and certain drivers aren't able to be tested (ie: the owner wants them back and a suitable replacement), and you decide to test a different driver we may be able to test it on my Klippel before you do your testing. 

Or, I'm still willing to ship you my Omnimic so you can take a seated measurement (which I would honestly prefer you to do, at the least).


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> I suppose this is a good time to mention...
> I'm getting a Klippel of my own soon.
> 
> I'm baaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaack (with the Klippel)
> 
> So, regarding the testing of the Phass driver, it looks like that should be doable and maybe before this test starts off.
> 
> If anything changes and certain drivers aren't able to be tested (ie: the owner wants them back and a suitable replacement), and you decide to test a different driver we may be able to test it on my Klippel before you do your testing.
> 
> Or, I'm still willing to ship you my Omnimic so you can take a seated measurement (which I would honestly prefer you to do, at the least).


I'd like to see the Focal being tested too if at all possible  

Kelvin


----------



## mark620

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Any seas drivers in the mix?


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Hey Erin,

Just sent a donation to your Paypal account for the Klippel machine purchase. 

Thanks again for all that you have contributed to this site and hobby! I and others appreciate it...

George




bikinpunk said:


> I suppose this is a good time to mention...
> I'm getting a Klippel of my own soon.
> 
> I'm baaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaack (with the Klippel)
> 
> So, regarding the testing of the Phass driver, it looks like that should be doable and maybe before this test starts off.
> 
> If anything changes and certain drivers aren't able to be tested (ie: the owner wants them back and a suitable replacement), and you decide to test a different driver we may be able to test it on my Klippel before you do your testing.
> 
> Or, I'm still willing to ship you my Omnimic so you can take a seated measurement (which I would honestly prefer you to do, at the least).


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Hey Jerry,

Thanks for the update. You can keep the AT drivers as long you want for the testing.

George





Niebur3 said:


> I need to make sure everyone who donated speakers for this test is okay with the new time table. I actually stopped at the recording studio yesterday after sending a couple email and hearing nothing back. He is absolutely swamped and the 1st weekend he has available is July 21st, which I has him ink. So, it is absolutely going to happen then, I just hope everyone will be okay with that time frame.
> 
> Also, looking for a Focal Crossblock for the test as well. Anyone have one of those lying around?!?
> 
> BTW, if the timing doesn't work, PM me and I'll get the speakers sent back. I apologize for all the delays. It is a little harder to coordinate when you are at the mercy of another.


----------



## necrophidious

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Looking forward to the results...


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry-
Appreciate keeping us all in the loop. I'm fine with the time frame. Thanks for doing this!
Rgds,
D




Niebur3 said:


> I need to make sure everyone who donated speakers for this test is okay with the new time table. I actually stopped at the recording studio yesterday after sending a couple email and hearing nothing back. He is absolutely swamped and the 1st weekend he has available is July 21st, which I has him ink. So, it is absolutely going to happen then, I just hope everyone will be okay with that time frame.
> 
> Also, looking for a Focal Crossblock for the test as well. Anyone have one of those lying around?!?
> 
> BTW, if the timing doesn't work, PM me and I'll get the speakers sent back. I apologize for all the delays. It is a little harder to coordinate when you are at the mercy of another.


----------



## ErinH

Jerry, LMK if someone needs speakers back that Madisound sells. I may be able to help you out there. 

Also, try to keep me in mind if you need any test equipment so I have enough time to ship it out to you. I've got the Dayton DATS and Omnimic if you need 'em.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Erin, 

You can go ahead and ship out the omnimic if you want. I already have a DATS donated and in my possession. 

Thanks


----------



## Loudtaco

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

hmmmm. the 21st 
Omaha isn't that far of a drive.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Anyone who wants to be a part of the testing, let me know. I will let you know when and where and you can be the judge!


----------



## GS3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

any possibility to include this in the test. this looks like a high-end driver also.

Morel SCM 634 Supreme 6" Midrange

Morel SCM 634 Supreme 6" Midrange 287-036


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Nope!


----------



## GS3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Nope!


any experience or thoughts on that driver?

thanks


----------



## snaimpally

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> I need to make sure everyone who donated speakers for this test is okay with the new time table. I actually stopped at the recording studio yesterday after sending a couple email and hearing nothing back. He is absolutely swamped and the 1st weekend he has available is July 21st, which I has him ink. So, it is absolutely going to happen then, I just hope everyone will be okay with that time frame.
> 
> Also, looking for a Focal Crossblock for the test as well. Anyone have one of those lying around?!?
> 
> BTW, if the timing doesn't work, PM me and I'll get the speakers sent back. I apologize for all the delays. It is a little harder to coordinate when you are at the mercy of another.


Jerry, sorry but I cannot wait another 2 weeks - I'd like my drivers back this week please. Let me talk to Nick (mitsugr1n), national trainer for Focal, and see if he can get you a pair of Focal Be woofers, officially on loan from Focal. I'm sure he can arrange for a crossblock as well.


----------



## ErinH

^ what mids did you donate? 

Jerry, why the need for a cross block?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I wanted a crossblock for when we pair the woofer with a tweeter for the 2-way application. We are planning on listening to the woofer only as a dedicated midbass (should be fun ). The crossblock would give us a way to dial in the crossover point while still using the class A 2-channel amp Focus Mastering has.


----------



## Seattle Esotar

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I've been following this thread and patiently awaiting this driver comparison. Loved the last one you did. These types of comparisons are invaluable to we enthusiasts/industry professionals. Especially since the demise of competitions/IASCA etc. There is just not as much opportunity to hear and compare these high end drivers for most of us except for CES maybe. We display some of these drivers in our soundroom so it makes it that much more interesting to me. Wish I could be there. Thanks for your contribution!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I have some good news and some bad news for everyone. 

Bad News First: 
The test will not be happening this weekend. Due to the scheduling conflicts with the recording studio I want to use, things have been pushed back several times and we lost the ability to test the Focal Speakers. Currently I have in my possession Audio Technology, Hybrid, Scan, Dynaudio, and PHASS. 

I apologize to all that have donated that I am holding hostage their babies with nothing to show for it yet. SEPTEMBER 8TH is the next opportunity to test these drivers, so if anyone needs their drivers back before the 8th of September, contact me ASAP so I can arrange for a replacement set.

Now for the good news:
I have done a lot of thinking and have decided to increase the test to 10 drivers. I currently have 5 (and would love to still find the Focal BE Woofer 6W2 woofer again) and as I will have the final say, I want you guys to discuss the remaining 4-5 drivers to be tested. Again, it will be a midbass test (as used in a 3-way front stage) AND a midwoofer test (as used in a 2-way front stage). Let me know which ones you want to see the most and find who is going to donate them. I will pick the final ones and would need them to be sent ASAP so I can prep the test.

Thanks


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

How about the Pioneer Stage 4 midbass? I can loan those for testing.


----------



## d5sc

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the update. You can keep the AT drivers till September for the test as they are my backup drivers.

George


----------



## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

maybe some Rainbow, and MP


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I like the Stage 4 ideas Tundra. Please Send those.

I want to make sure the drivers we test are ones that are currently for sale. So, keep that in mind.


----------



## WLDock

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Myself, I would hope to see the *Exodus Anarchy* drivers in the test...especially given the DIY nature of this forum and the cost to performance of this driver.


----------



## papasin

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Seas Lotus Reference RW-165?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



WLDock said:


> Myself, I would hope to see the *Exodus Anarchy* drivers in the test...especially given the DIY nature of this forum and the cost to performance of this driver.


^^^This driver has been asked by many in this thread to be included...Who can send me a pair of Exodus Anarchy? I think these need to be in the test. 

Also, the vifa ne180w has been mentioned many times. Anyone have a set of these they can send?

So, we have......

Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H (Automotive Version) - have
Dynaudio Esotar2 e650 - have
Hybrid L6SE - have
ScanSpeak Illuminator 7" Paper Cone Woofer 18WU/4741T-00 - have
PHASS MD0790 - have
Pioneer Stage4 - need (*ISTundra* sending)
Exodus Anarchy - need (*nar93da* sending)
Vifa ne180W - need (*highly* hopefully sending)

All other are being considered....keep options coming (only 2 spots left)!


----------



## nar93da

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I got you covered for the Anarchy's. PM me your address to send them to and e-mail to send you a few bucks for return shipping.

Nick


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Would it be possible to ask Orca to donate a pair of Be 6w2 and/or a pair of Illusion C6 

Kelvin


----------



## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



subwoofery said:


> Would it be possible to ask Orca to donate a pair of Be 6w2 and/or a pair of Illusion C6
> 
> Kelvin


Nick Wingate is on the Forums,... ask him or I can text him and see what he says.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



DAT said:


> Nick Wingate is on the Forums,... ask him or I can text him and see what he says.


I know he's on the forum but I don't know him enough to ask such a thing :blush: 
Really want to see the Be 6w2 driver in the test though

Kelvin


----------



## SouthSyde

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



subwoofery said:


> I know he's on the forum but I don't know him enough to ask such a thing :blush:
> Really want to see the Be 6w2 driver in the test though
> 
> Kelvin


You and your tests.. ALways wanna see it alllll!! Who does such things..  Ludicrous I say!


----------



## 2wheelie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I would love to see how a pro audio driver stacks up against these. Maybe the 6nd430 and the 6ndl44?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



subwoofery said:


> Would it be possible to ask Orca to donate a pair of Be 6w2 and/or a pair of Illusion C6
> 
> Kelvin





subwoofery said:


> I know he's on the forum but I don't know him enough to ask such a thing :blush:
> Really want to see the Be 6w2 driver in the test though
> 
> Kelvin


I talked to Nick and he does not want to participate in this test. He said that the Focal's were made to be listened to off-axis and since we are doing mainly on-axis, they would not perform as well in out test as they could in a vehicle.


----------



## audioanarchist

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I agree that a Pro audio driver should be in the mix.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

2 spots left and lots of options still out there!!!

What say you?


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm glad to see that this is still going to happen and even happier that you are considering adding more drivers to this test. The only thing I have laying around here would be an old (but barely used) Hertz HSK165 set (this is old version - probably 3-4 years old or so). If you want them for testing I can ship them out. 

What I would really like to see (other than most of the drivers you are already doing reviews on) are some of the other Scan speak drivers. I wouldn't mind seeing a Revalator 6 in there or one I have been seriously considering because of price factor - the Discovery 6 (18W-4434g I think it is). The Anarchy I am very interested in seeing how it does against these other much more expensive offerings - same goes for the Scan Discovery. Sorry I can't help provide drivers for these.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Oh, also how about some of the new Morel lineup from this year (if they are available yet that is)? For that matter, how about the Elate or Supremo 6 from last year? I did try out an Elate 6 in my truck but wasn't overly impressed compared to my Hertz ML165. Then again, I just swapped out speakers and had everything set exactly the same which I am possitive was not a good indicator of those driver's performance.


----------



## quality_sound

What about some QWD-160s?


----------



## benny

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Aura NS6? :blush:


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



quality_sound said:


> What about some QWD-160s?


I want to keep all the drivers as current production models. I am assuming these are the really nice ones that MB Quart used to produce?


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I can send you some 4 ohm 18Sound 6s.


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Whew! For a second I thought I might have to buy Anarchy's to send in..... glad I dodged that bullet 

Had hoped the test would be iminent, but I won't ***** or whine (much) about the delay; I'm ok to wait.




Would love to see the 18 sounds or B&C added to the mix.....


----------



## Genxx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Hertz Mille and the Scan Discovery get my vote. Next would be the Morel Virtus I have been hearing great things about them. A test would confirm or deny the rumors on the Virtus.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

My Vote is still for the:

SEAS Excel W18NX-001 (E0042) Nextel Cone 7" Woofer

They are currently in production and available at Madisound and others.

They are DIY!!!

Just take a look at the specs guys. xmax, Le, blah, blah, blah...we need to include these in this test!


Madisound Speaker Store


I have them and will ship them out and pay for return shipping as well!

EMAIL bbfoto AT hotmail DOT coms


----------



## quality_sound

Niebur3 said:


> I want to keep all the drivers as current production models. I am assuming these are the really nice ones that MB Quart used to produce?


Those are the ones. From the QSD-216 set to the QSD-164 midbass add-on set. Bummer, they'd have mopped the floor with a lot of the newer drivers. It's still surprises me how good they are sometimes.


----------



## asota

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



quality_sound said:


> Those are the ones. From the QSD-216 set to the QSD-164 midbass add-on set. Bummer, they'd have mopped the floor with a lot of the newer drivers. It's still surprises me how good they are sometimes.


The German Maestro M series are a direct replacement for the old Q series The tweeter has been upgraded but mid, mid-bass driver remains almost unchanged. Another driver I would like to see tested is the Blues 6.5''. On paper this driver has great power handling, is very efficant, has a very smooth FR curve, and is Made in USA. I have heard them also and they rock.


----------



## Genxx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^Blues 6.5 will have to second that one. I would think maybe blues would send them to you if you asked.IMO


----------



## req

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

im very glad to see the exodus in there. they should fit in very well in this catagory.

maybe another DIY type driver like a XLS? lots of people have been using these due to their price\performance.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'd never heard of Blues drivers before. A quick look at their website and I must say I am now a little intrigued by these too.


----------



## quality_sound

asota said:


> The German Maestro M series are a direct replacement for the old Q series The tweeter has been upgraded but mid, mid-bass driver remains almost unchanged. Another driver I would like to see tested is the Blues 6.5''. On paper this driver has great power handling, is very efficant, has a very smooth FR curve, and is Made in USA. I have heard them also and they rock.


The cone and suspension are completely different. That's a pretty drastic change. Having said that, if I ever kill my Quarts I'm going with the GMs.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Paul, you like them that much? Says a lot coming from the other speakers you have owned.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> I can send you some 4 ohm 18Sound 6s.


Be interesting to see those ^ ... 

... and the Blues, in order to see what the hype is all about. 

Kelvin


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I volunteer my MW182 9" midbasses. Come on, you know you want to see how a larger midbass compares in a blind listening test against 7" midbasses.


----------



## nigeDLS

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'd be interested to see how the Morels stack up, maybe the Elate Limited Editions?


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



nigeDLS said:


> I'd be interested to see how the Morels stack up, maybe the Elate Limited Editions?



ooohh, purdy...


----------



## quality_sound

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> Paul, you like them that much? Says a lot coming from the other speakers you have owned.


I got better midbass out of these 6" midbasses than I EVER did out of the RS225s or ZR800s. They were so good that I wasn't in ANY rush to put a sub in either. And I was feeding them a bridged HD600/4 with the gains up WAY too high. Friggin awesome. I can't wait to get them in my Tundra. Honestly, I think a lot of it is that they're from an era when efficiency was valued more. If I had more space iId probably be running C12d's instead of the S12d's, or even some XPLs. I would sell a kidney for some mint Alpine ZR 12s. Maybe some OG 12W6s too.


----------



## Rupinder

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

i would second seas reference rw165 midbass


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Rupinder said:


> i would second seas reference rw165 midbass


yes, that is another speaker I have been told about by a number of guys that have listened to alot that I can't. I know Bing is sure high on them

It will be interesting to see what the final 10 speakers chosen will be here. Even more interesting will be to see which drivers perform better in which situations or if there is very little difference in each driver. After all, all of these drivers are highly talked about in our circles.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Ohh yeah, would love to see the 660Gti mid too - if someone could send it in  
Andy raves about that one as being one of the best low distortion driver tested by JBL... 

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I just got the Exodus Anarchy woofers today!

The Vifa woofers are being shipped soon....what others are you guys wanting.....you need to decide.


----------



## nar93da

Good to see they got there alright.

Maybe someone could source the mids from the ridiculous priced RF T3 or T5 components!

Sent from my DROID3


----------



## bmiller1

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

IMHO, I feel like a Morel needs to be in there. Though I sadly have none to offer.


----------



## fish

I still think the 18 Sound 6ND430 needs to be thrown into the mix to extend the field into the pro audio realm. 

I like the mention of the Hertz Mille, Seas Nextel, & Blues too.


----------



## ariko81

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^This. Yes.


----------



## req

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

18 sound ^_^

oem\diy\pro audio = perfect for the test


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I uninstalled the Pio stage 4 midbass and can ship this week if you still want these in the shootout


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^ Yes Sir, I do!


Does someone have a pair of the 18 Sound 6ND430 or Seas to send?


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> ^^ Yes Sir, I do!
> 
> 
> Does someone have a pair of the 18 Sound 6ND430 or Seas to send?


I think Jason (thehatedguy) offered up his 6ND430's last page or so.


----------



## robert_wrath

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Was there any testing completed among the drivers sent in for this showdown?


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

[email protected], I could have sent the Seas W18NX-001 Nextels if they were requested when I offered them up previously, but now I'm out of town on a photo shoot for another week at least. What date is set for the test/comparison now???

Maybe I can get my better half to pack them up and ship them out! LMK


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> [email protected], I could have sent the Seas W18NX-001 Nextels if they were requested when I offered them up previously, but now I'm out of town on a photo shoot for another week at least. What date is set for the test/comparison now???
> 
> Maybe I can get my better half to pack them up and ship them out! LMK


Jerry has moved the date up to September 8th.


----------



## subiemax

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



robert_wrath said:


> Was there any testing completed among the drivers sent in for this showdown?


No, this is all just an elaborate ploy for Neibur3 to test every high end mid to see which he likes best in his car


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^ Damn, you caught me!

So, it sounds as if the Seas and 18 sounds are available (or will be in time) before I fill the last 2 spots with those, any others you guys would like to see?


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



fish said:


> Jerry has moved the date up to September 8th.


Thanks fish! Jerry, I'll get the Seas W18NX-001's to you when I get back into town so you have them for the 8th.


----------



## putergod

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I think blues should be in the mix... to see if they are really worth the money...


----------



## req

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

somone has to have the blues in order to have them tested. i dont think there are many people who have them, if any really.


----------



## highly

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If there is REAL interest - I mean serious interest - in the Blues I have a few friends I can talk to and _maybe_ get a set in. Recommendations on which driver you would like to see (or hear...)?

No promises...

-T


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

We only have room for 2 more.

U guys debate between the Seas, 18 Sound, and Blues or any other you want to see. I will make the final decision based on the ones I see mentioned the most.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

18 Sound 6ND430 and Focal 6w2 for me  - come on guyz, some has to have a pair of 6w2 

Kelvin


----------



## 2wheelie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

18 sounds


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



robert_wrath said:


> Was there any testing completed among the drivers sent in for this showdown?


I can vouch, the capability does exist


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm gonna throw my definite vote out there for the 18 Sound 6ND430. Out of the others mentioned it'd be a toss-up between the Hertz Mille & the SEAS Nextel.


----------



## Genxx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

*18Sound* and the *Blues* get my vote only having room for two. Wish you had room for more.

Seas nextel have been reviewed mutliple times just not in a shoot out, same with Hertz Mille.

If you could add three more my 3rd vote would be the Morel Virtus.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Genxx said:


> *18Sound* and the *Blues* get my vote only having room for two. Wish you had room for more.
> 
> Seas nextel have been reviewed mutliple times just not in a shoot out, same with Hertz Mille.
> 
> If you could add three more my 3rd vote would be the Morel Virtus.


Curious why the Virtus instead of the Supremo? 

Kelvin


----------



## Genxx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It is the new kid on the block, price point is more affordable to most and I keep seeing people say good things, except most of those people seem tied to Morel in some way. So if Morel has actually created something special that is more affordable to most of us that would be great.

IMO the Supremo is to expensive for 98% of the people I know or people on the forum. It seems once you breach about $750 you are out of the range most can afford, the next dollar amount seems to be $1000. After that only a few truly have the funds to spend on anything outside those ranges, unless they plan to start charging it on their credit cards.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Genxx said:


> It is the new kid on the block, price point is more affordable to most and I keep seeing people say good things, except most of those people seem tied to Morel in some way. So if Morel has actually created something special that is more affordable to most of us that would be great.
> 
> IMO the Supremo is to expensive for 98% of the people I know or people on the forum. It seems once you breach about $750 you are out of the range most can afford, the next dollar amount seems to be $1000. After that only a few truly have the funds to spend on anything outside those ranges, unless they plan to start charging it on their credit cards.


Thought I'd ask coz it's mostly high-end drivers that are being tested here - other than those DIY drivers

Kelvin


----------



## Genxx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I agree^^So if there is something in the market that can do 99% of what the expensive drivers that only a select few can afford without going into debt then why do we keep testing drivers that no one can afford. 

I know it is cool to see the best drivers ect. and a lot of people get excited over them.

Why not do a driver comparison of stuff that people can afford. Maybe something off the list below. Most of these are in the $400-$1000 range and most would consider $1000 expensive. I think you could have some big surprises and still the big names.

JL ZR or C5
HAT Clarus
Morel Virtus
Diamond HEX
Hertz High-Energy
Rockford Fosgate T3652s
ScanSpeak Signature car audio kit and Discovery Car system
Alpine SPX17 Pro
CDT ES
Dynaudio Esotec
Rainbow Vanadium
Helix C62c
Pioneer Stage 4
Focal K2Power
Polk Audio MM6501

I like seeing those high-end drivers and they are amazing to look at. I like seeing the high-end shoot outs but after it is over only about 2% of people can actually afford them. So why not give the other 98% a shoot out they can afford.

OK, this has gotten way off topic so this is my last post unless it is pertaining to this thread comparison.

Sorry to take it off topic. 

Niebur3- I do appreciate all the hard work you put into these so please no one or you take anything I have said out of context or as any kind of complaint. I like seeing these high-end shoot out as much as the next guy was only answering the question asked.


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I see the Hertz Mille are getting some votes so I'll vote for the ML 1600. I'd prefer the old style Mille though, seem more fitting between the others beeing tested.


----------



## putergod

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



req said:


> somone has to have the blues in order to have them tested. i dont think there are many people who have them, if any really.


Ray "_might_" be willing to send in a set... if he truly believes in the product.
Could be worth a shot.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Genxx, 

I understand your points and that is why I opened up the test for more drivers that were lower price points. 

This test was started for a couple of purposes:
1) See which of the high end drivers were the best (i.e. ferrari vs porsche vs lamborghini)
2) See how a subjective test compared with the klippel results from Erin (Bikinpunk)

I decided to open it up because we lost a driver and because (IMO) unless you compare a corvette or camaro to a ferrari, how do you know the ferrari is actually best?

The midrange test in some cases followed, more expensive was better, but not completely as there were some very affordable drivers that did very well.

I will follow the masses on the speakers for the final 2 spots, but I am somewhat concerned with the rarity of the drivers being mentioned. Are you guy sure you want these and not more mainstream speakers that more people have or would purchase?


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Genxx,
> 
> I understand your points and that is why I opened up the test for more drivers that were lower price points.
> 
> This test was started for a couple of purposes:
> 1) See which of the high end drivers were the best (i.e. ferrari vs porsche vs lamborghini)
> 2) See how a subjective test compared with the klippel results from Erin (Bikinpunk)
> 
> I decided to open it up because we lost a driver and because (IMO) unless you compare a corvette or camaro to a ferrari, how do you know the ferrari is actually best?
> 
> The midrange test in some cases followed, more expensive was better, but not completely as there were some very affordable drivers that did very well.
> 
> I will follow the masses on the speakers for the final 2 spots, but I am somewhat concerned with the rarity of the drivers being mentioned. Are you guy sure you want these and not more mainstream speakers that more people have or would purchase?


I think it comes down to the myth that something you can't hear is better. I have definitely fallen into that category. My personal vote would be the Hertz ML1600 as I have the ML165 of previous. As the major majority of these drivers are not available for me to ever hear, I would like a reference point. I do not have a pair to send unfortunately tho.


----------



## ErinH

Now that I've got a klippel I'll be happy to test the new drivers Jerry has added either before or after he completes his subjective review. All I ask is someone ship me a driver or drivers and I'll test them as quickly as I can and post the data on my site at medleysmusings.com. 

I've tested a few of these drivers already but it would be great to have data to correlate with he subjective analysis. 


Also, Jerry, as you discovered the last time you took on this task with midrange drivers, understanding the testing methodology is absolutely critical in reading the test results. Have you considered how you're going to conduct your tests?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> Also, Jerry, as you discovered the last time you took on this task with midrange drivers, understanding the testing methodology is absolutely critical in reading the test results. Have you considered how you're going to conduct your tests?


Of course I have silly. I don't have everything finalized yet, but a good idea in mind of how it is all going down.


----------



## captainobvious

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Ive seen the Seas WX Nextel cone drivers listed several times. PLEASE include this one in the testing. It would be a crime to not have the top of the line Seas driver in there with the others. I would MUCH rather see that in there than the blue speaker. The pro audio driver sounded like a great recommendation too.

Anxiously awaiting the tests, thanks !!


----------



## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

While I think this is going to be fun to the test the speakers, I would think someone like Bikinpunk or another person that is not a dealer for some of the brands would be a good choice to do the Test. 

Not trying to knock ya Jerry, but the midrange testing was a mess.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



DAT said:


> While I think this is going to be fun to the test the speakers, I would think someone like Bikinpunk or another person that is not a dealer for some of the brands would be a good choice to do the Test.
> 
> Not trying to knock ya Jerry, but the midrange testing was a mess.


Are you kidding me? What exactly are you trying to say because it sounds an awful lot like you're accusing someone of fixing results. Suppose Jerry is the most biased dealer out there. How will this affect a blind listening test with many others involved in the judging, not knowing which brand is which?


----------



## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> Are you kidding me? What exactly are you trying to say because it sounds an awful lot like you're accusing someone of fixing results. Suppose Jerry is the most biased dealer out there. How will this affect a blind listening test with many others involved in the judging, not knowing which brand is which?


It is what it is. Not saying Jerry is biased at all. Take it, twist it all you want.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



DAT said:


> It is what it is. Not saying Jerry is biased at all. Take it, twist it all you want.


I'm not twisting anything. I don't know any other way you can mean what you said. If you are not saying the results might be fixed because Jerry is a dealer, say so. Are you saying others might think so?


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I spoke with Jerry recently about testing methods and other ideas. Speaking for him, one thing that needs to be kept in mind when moving forward with the test is the goal. The goal of Jerry's test is to achieve something that the average user can get useful information from. Not target a specific set of hi-fi automotive nuts. The key here is to be _logical_ about the end goal which is to create a standard test for each driver in a nominal listening case. Not create multiple strings of tests to appeal to every single drivers' shortcomings or breakthroughs. 


I'm honestly not sure many people see things in gray as much as I do, so of course I could argue any of my points below... but then you get in to the test being long and drawn out and rather too specific in some cases. The community would be better served by a test that would more easily apply to the average user who wants to get information on drivers used in a 2-way system for their car stereo. 


*Use in a 2-way System:*
I think it would be both easier and logical to test the midwoofers as part of a 2-way system. This gives a chance for each driver to show what it can do in this application. Those that excel in output will regardless do the same as a dedicated midbass. I don't see the need to test as both part of a 2-way _and_ 3-way configuration. Not only is it a bit more honed in on an active user set (how many here start with or are currently using a 3-way system? Not a lot), but it flat out just makes it easier to achieve this overall goal of subjective evaluation. I can make a case for listening as a midbass only but at the end of the day it's really, IMHO, non-sensical to do so given the target audience. I think Jerry would be better served - and the site as well - if this test were kept to a 2-way system.

Bandpass would likely be 80-2500hz. Why? It's a good, round, realistic range. Most mids don't need to crossed higher than 2500hz. It's not something that everyone will use but it's a good general number. If Jerry were to start adding multiple bandpasses to appease every driver's shining areas (ie: cross lower to show off the extended low end response or cross higher to show an extended upper end response) then he just creates a real mess of things and will turn what should be a straightforward, useful test for the community in to something contrived and likely ironically constrained. 

He plans to mate the drivers with a tweeter and I understand why. Really, listening to just a midrange by itself is unrealistic. There will probably be some grievance over his tweeter choice and some will say he has to build a specific crossover for each setup but this gets back to being realistic. Cross where you normally would. I believe it's 2500hz, 24dB/octave slopes on the mid. Use the same or a bit higher crossover for the tweeter's HPF and roll on. Spending additional time to set up new crossovers introduces not only an issue with aural memory (as if it's not already bad enough) but more potential for error and more so creates additional differences within the test itself. I think it's a waste of time to sweat this kind of detail. And for me to say that is a lot. I'm really big on this being a very generic use test and doing so keeps it simple and straightforward. I'm not sure if you guys understand what Jerry is about to take on but the less he changes between driver tests, the better off we are and the more apples-to-apples it is.​

*On and Off-Axis Evaluations*
One thing Jerry mentioned was that not everyone will be sitting on axis in this evaluation. Truth be told, I think this may work out for the best. I suggested Jerry have two sets of data: 

One for On-Axis Evaluation
One for Off-Axis Evaluation

That way everyone gets to listen to the driver in both cases and can write his/her opinions of the sound quality from both perspectives. This helps namely because most people in car audio use door mounted mids and are very much off-axis and still helps the user who may want to tweak the firing angle to perform a bit better. This gives us more evaluations to base what we might be better suited to use. This somewhat flies in the face of a one-size-fits-all testing method, BUT I think it goes a long way to combat the issue that hardly anyone is directly on axis with a 6-7" mid in the car. Truth be told, I could almost make the case that this entire test should be done off-axis...

Jerry and I discussed breaking his final report up in to two sections for the groups who were on and off-axis. The reader can then see how the opinions varied in both listening positions. I think it's a pretty cool idea, personally. Of course, I'm biased since it's mine. ​





*Objective Tests*
Before/After this test is complete, I hope to have all the drivers tested. The very ones Jerry has gotten. Since I now own my own Klippel and post data on my own site, I told Jerry I'd like the opportunity to test everything under the new 'standard' conditions. One prime example is the distortion testing I do, which is now in the nearfield. I do not intend to say that my previous data cannot stand on it's own but if I am going to test these drivers they ALL need to be tested under the exact same conditions and using the same methods. I do not want a driver I tested under one set of methods to be compared to a driver tested under another set. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel good about the comparisons being made.

So, the plan is for me to objectively test every driver Jerry tests. The exact same ones. This data will be published to my site:
Medley's Musings | Audio Component Data, Analysis, and Experiences

I have asked Jerry if he would like to write the review up for my site. I'm not sure what his plans are yet but it would likely make it a bit easier for the public to view his results and I can then provide all the data with it. 


To those of you sending in drivers to Jerry and haven't yet shipped them, if you don't mind shipping it/them to me first and I'll test it and ship it on to Jerry. 

The drivers Jerry already has will be sent to me after his evaluations are complete and I'll test them, then send them back to the owners. 
This will be covered on my dime and with contributions made to my site via the "contribute" button. 

Of course, this is only possible if the owners of the driver(s) allows me to do so. And I really hope you are willing to because not only would Jerry's subjective test have data directly correlating to it but we as a community could also gain a better understanding of why certain drivers were preferred and others weren't. If you are OK with this, let either Jerry or I know and we'll figure out what we need to do. 

And, along those lines, to those attending Jerry's function, I personally would appreciate it if you could write down all your thoughts and if you choose to use terms such as "cold" or "warm", please do your best to describe exactly what you mean by that. I do not intend to sound like I am telling you what to do. I just really think the community could gain a WHOLE lot from that kind of specific information.​





I'm willing and ready to be as involved with this as I can be because I really think Jerry has something great going here and we can really, really extrapolate his previous midrange testing in to something that bears even more fruit.

I appreciate all of you who have contributed drivers to his cause and, again, if you are willing to let me test the driver before or after his test is complete please PM me so we can get the ball rolling. The sooner I can get the drivers, the sooner I can get the data. The plan is to publish all the results together with Jerry's review so the sooner, the better for both of us. 


Thanks to you folks for making this possible. I'm really excited about this and looking forward to it. 

- Erin


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This might be one of the most interesting test for me - especially having the data to correlate (or not) to what the testers might hear... 

Keep up the good work. 

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



DAT said:


> While I think this is going to be fun to the test the speakers, I would think someone like Bikinpunk or another person that is not a dealer for some of the brands would be a good choice to do the Test.
> 
> Not trying to knock ya Jerry, but the midrange testing was a mess.


Please elaborate on what you are trying to say, considering I was not a dealer in anyway, shape, or form while I performed the midrange test? A mess in what way? Some people didn't like the results (not every driver can be the best and some got upset). Please tell me how my methodology for that test caused the results to be "fixed" or in any way altered? How would I have benefited, since again, I wasn't a dealer? 

I take great offense to these comments Dave. Maybe you should re-read the midrange test again or come out directly and ask what you want to ask OR say what you want to say. 

FWIW, it will be in the write up that fact that I am a dealer AND that I will personally be handling all the speakers in the test (don't trust anyone else with these drivers since my pocketbook is on the line if one gets damaged). Other than that, the test will be blind with a random order gone through two times to ensure the results. There will be testers from the forum and other sources that can verify the validity of the test itself, it needed. 

I thought I have proven over the years to be an ethical person, especially on this forum. Yes, I like Dynaudio....but Erin is a fan of ScanSpeak....how is he less biased? How would skewing the results benefit me personally when I have a set territory I can sell to? Everyone has their personal favorites and bias could be called into question. It is about trusting the tester and the methodology used that is the important thing. Out of the brands being tested, I sell PHASS, Dynaudio and Hybrid Audio.

So, please Dave, tell me how I am unfit to do this test? 

Also, to be a little bit of a dick, because I am pissed at this post, I am doing the test regardless of what anyone thinks. I have that right and no one can take that away. Now, if you want to question my results.....then question away, but prepared to bring a little more to the table then "but he is a dealer"!


----------



## lucas569

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

in for results


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



> I have that right and no one can take that away


Not only that, you have my drivers AND my vote of confidence too! Keep my contributions as needed to render clean results. It's your choice to do this, and a choice I support.

I am grateful to both you and Erin for doing what you are for the (hopefully) improvement of the knowledge base we all have to work from. Thankful enough that I have and will continue to "put my money where my mouth is", while not really saying much else. Be well and thanks again. D


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Erin, I'll PM you when I get back into town and when I can ship the Seas W18NX-001's to you to Klippel test before they go to Jerry.

I don't know how much interest there would be, but I also have a pair of the Alpine SPX-17PRO 6.5" mids and/or Pioneer TSC-720PRS 6.5" mids that I could send, although the Pioneers' are no longer available for purchase AFAIK, so the Stage 4 drivers make more sense.

Personally, I'd like to see more DIY-type drivers in the test, but it's always interesting to have comparisons against one or two of the higher-end car audio-branded mids, especially the Klippel data and how that relates to the subjective listening impressions.

TIA guys! Looking forward to the results.

P.S. Would love to have a video camera setup on a tripod in the back of the room to document an overview of the subjective testing, which can then be posted on YouTube.  The actual names of each of the drivers that corresponds to set "A", "B", "C", etceteras could be revealed in the Credits at the end of the video. Might seem like a long, boring video, but..."Photos or it didn't happen" LOL!


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> Erin, I'll PM you when I get back into town and when I can ship the Seas W18NX-001's to you to Klippel test before they go to Jerry.
> 
> I don't know how much interest there would be, but I also have a pair of the Alpine SPX-17PRO 6.5" mids and/or Pioneer TSC-720PRS 6.5" mids that I could send, although the Pioneers' are no longer available for purchase AFAIK, so the Stage 4 drivers make more sense.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to see more DIY-type drivers in the test, but it's always interesting to have comparisons against one or two of the higher-end car audio-branded mids, especially the Klippel data and how that relates to the subjective listening impressions.
> 
> TIA guys! Looking forward to the results.
> 
> P.S. Would love to have a video camera setup on a tripod in the back of the room to document an overview of the subjective testing, which can then be posted on YouTube.  The actual names of each of the drivers that corresponds to set "A", "B", "C", etceteras could be revealed in the Credits at the end of the video. Might seem like a long, boring video, but..."Photos or it didn't happen" LOL!


I think this is a great idea too if it is not too much of a hassle. I am most definitely in your support for this testing. I am really hooping that this testing helps narrow down what I buy for a midbass. Right now, I am looking at pretty much all of these drivers and am so confused and frustrated because I can't hear even one of these drivers for myself really. Well, ok, I guess I have a place to hear the Utopia's on a board but that's about it here.


----------



## Buzzman

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

After reading the previous posts, considering the proposed testing methodology, and giving this some thought, I have come to the conclusion that the merits of the proposed test will be seriously undermined unless Jerry tests 2-way speaker systems of the same brand, in addition to pairing individual midbass drivers with a universal tweeter. I assume the tweeter Jerry plans to use will be a constant in all listening tests. However, due to variances in such areas as speaker efficiency and tonal characteristics, I believe that subjective observations about any of the proposed midbasses will be skewed by how the entire "system" sounds, especially in the critical midrange frequencies. It will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "EQ" out those variances. Listeners will not be able to isolate or block out that frequency range, and the proposed crossover point in a 2-way set-up is smack dab in the middle of this critical area. Moreover, how do you assure the reader that choosing a particular midbass driver based on the subjective comments of the listeners will yield similar results with their tweeter, which is likely different than the one to be used for the test? I think it will be much more useful and informative, for example, to test 2-way sets using the factory passives, and then test using an electronic crossover and documenting any differences. Forum members are always inquiring about the benefits of electronic crossovers vs. passive crossovers, and this test might offer some useful insights, particularly since there is intended to be both on and off-axis listening. It would be quite interesting, for example, to see how altering slopes and frequency crossover points with the electronic crossover affects off-axis performance as compared to the passive crossover. All of the proposed midbass drivers have a factory tweeter that is complementary, so acquiring a tweeter shouldn't be too difficult. Acquiring tweeters AND passives might be problematical with regard to the DIY brands, however. Therefore, perhaps the most viable and useful option might be to use an electronic crossover to try multiple crossover frequencies and slopes to assess the "flexibility" of a particular set of drivers and issue grades based on subjective listening. Then, perhaps the midbass driver from the systems that score highest (top 5 perhaps) could be paired with the tweeter Jerry intends to use so that observations could be made about that combination relative to the factory pairing. Now, you would have something that people could really benefit from. My 2 cents.


----------



## SouthSyde

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Please elaborate on what you are trying to say, considering I was not a dealer in anyway, shape, or form while I performed the midrange test? A mess in what way? Some people didn't like the results (not every driver can be the best and some got upset). Please tell me how my methodology for that test caused the results to be "fixed" or in any way altered? How would I have benefited, since again, I wasn't a dealer?
> 
> I take great offense to these comments Dave. Maybe you should re-read the midrange test again or come out directly and ask what you want to ask OR say what you want to say.
> 
> FWIW, it will be in the write up that fact that I am a dealer AND that I will personally be handling all the speakers in the test (don't trust anyone else with these drivers since my pocketbook is on the line if one gets damaged). Other than that, the test will be blind with a random order gone through two times to ensure the results. There will be testers from the forum and other sources that can verify the validity of the test itself, it needed.
> 
> I thought I have proven over the years to be an ethical person, especially on this forum. Yes, I like Dynaudio....but Erin is a fan of ScanSpeak....how is he less biased? How would skewing the results benefit me personally when I have a set territory I can sell to? Everyone has their personal favorites and bias could be called into question. It is about trusting the tester and the methodology used that is the important thing. Out of the brands being tested, I sell PHASS, Dynaudio and Hybrid Audio.
> 
> So, please Dave, tell me how I am unfit to do this test?
> 
> Also, to be a little bit of a dick, because I am pissed at this post, I am doing the test regardless of what anyone thinks. I have that right and no one can take that away. Now, if you want to question my results.....then question away, but prepared to bring a little more to the table then "but he is a dealer"!


I for one is fine with you doing the test Jerry, thanks for taking time out to do it!


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

not all of the drivers tested have factory passives. The scans won't. Not sure if the Hybrid SE's will. The AT's certainly won't. The Seas won't. Pretty much any 'raw' driver does not. The only ones that do would be Focal, Phass and Dyn (maybe Blues if they are included). Out of 8-10 drivers, the only ones that come with factory passives as an option are about 3 to 4.
So, you'd essentially have to pick a tweeter to build a passive network with >50% _at best_. Beyond being extremely time consuming, how do you determine the best match if there is no passive network from the mfg? Do all the mfg's of single driver (non-compenent set) solutions get to have a say in the selection and design of the network? 

Let's assume this all is possible, though...



> Moreover, how do you assure the reader that choosing a particular midbass driver based on the subjective comments of the *listeners will yield similar results with their tweeter,* *which is likely different than the one to be used for the test*?


You want a different tweeter so each mid is more matched. Your reason makes sense and I'm on board in some regards. You say this is supposed to help the end user; the person reading the results because they probably won't be using the same tweeter Jerry chooses if he sticks with a single tweeter solution. 

However, the flip side is that then you're testing a _certain_ tweeter to a _certain_ mid. Consider what I've bolded in your quote. You're certainly right that not everyone will use the same standard tweeter Jerry uses. But, really, what are the odds they will use it if Jerry chooses a different tweeter for every mid? Slim. The only likely case would be for component sets. And Jerry isn't tieing himself to that criterion. I think he's just picking some more well regarded drivers for this test and also a few lesser known but highly discussed ones to round it out.

Not everyone here will run a passive setup and - as mentioned already - some raw drivers have no option for a component setup. You open the door to variance in testing and on top of that, you're stepping very far outside of the original intent of helping the viewer because now you're basically telling the user that in order to get the same experience Jerry's audience did, he'll have to use the same tweeter he did. This is indeed a pitfall if using the same tweeter for all mids, but it's compounded IMHO if you start using a separate tweeter for every mid. So, now you're tying each listening test to one tweeter each rather than the same tweeter for every mid. 

I do think there is merit in level matching the tweeter to the nominal response of each mid. That might be fair and be a good compromise. Plus, it's indicative of a real world situation where level matching is typically one of the first things a user does.

What you're asking to do is reasonable but it's an entirely different animal. not only are you creating more work on Jerry to accurately "match" a different tweeter to each mid but you're also creating more work and more testing variance. If Jerry chooses a single tweeter as a baseline and all subsequent testing is done using that same tweeter and exact same crossover points, all of his evaluations will be rooted to the exact same situation. In some regards a certain driver may not have a chance to shine (ie: a wideband may not get a chance to show it's stuff) but that's really just kind of the nature of this test itself; it's called Midrange/Midbass. 

If the crossover point is an issue, then let's discuss possibilities. Would 3.15khz be better? We can arbitrarily pick numbers; it may seem I'm doing so. In fact, I'm picking crossover points based on standard dsp configuration. The new boys on the block allow for manually inserted values for crossover frequencies but the majority of users will pick something they're familiar with or go with the standard 1/3 octave options on their DSP.
I'm not at all trying to bias the test one way or the other. I'm just trying to keep it close to real world situations.



Like I said in my previous post, I can argue with myself on my points. I do it daily. I have to do this because it's part of how I have to analyze my data at work. 
In fact, the goal Jerry had in mind when he first started was to test drivers I had data on and try to correlate it all. That's why I'm trying to get everyone to contribute their drivers. Nothing like this has really been done and I think we can all learn a lot from it if the listener evaluations are detailed enough. We can then *hopefully* say "oh, well, enough people felt the same way about this driver and it does do X better/worse than the others, so that very may well be what the data is telling us about other drivers". Jerry testing with a tweeter may actually detriment that correlation but that's just the hand that I'm being dealt and I understand why Jerry doesn't want to listen to a midrange by itself, though, I kind of wish he could conduct the test in both ways (with and without tweeter) to help the correlation. I know that would put a lot more stress on him, though, so I'm not going to fuss about it... other than via text death threats. lol. 

But, I'm also really considering how Jerry's last test went and how the aftermath occurred with numerous people dogging the methodology. I'm not telling Jerry what to do. I'm just voicing my insight based on what I've seen in his previous test, my own objective testing and mixing it all with some standard-use knowledge. I personally would hate to see Jerry spend all the time he has trying to please everyone and change test methods up for every driver just to hit it's high points. One goal of this test really should negate unnecessary efforts and if the goal is made clear and the methods are logical (not perfect, but logical) then I think that's really the best Jerry can do without making this test outside the scope of original intent _and_ making it a HUGE PITA on his part.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Don and Erin, there are some good points made by both of you. This is no simple task.

FWIW, here are my thoughts. 

#1. This is a DIY site and at least half of the drivers being tested are DIY and do not have supplier-made passive crossovers as mentioned.

#2. The Tweeter. There needs to be some type of constant in this test in order to properly evaluate the Midbass/Midrange driver, and to discern it's strengths or weaknesses. Therefore I vote to use a single tweeter for all tests, preferably a well-regarded one that can extend cleanly down to 2kHz @ 24db/octave. And yes, ideally the tweeters need to be level-matched to each set of mids. I'm torn between wanting the crossover to be set at either ~2kHz or ~3kHz @24dB/Octave. I'm leaning towards 3kHz, as nearly any tweeter one ultimately decides to run in their actual install will be able play without strain at moderately high levels. ~2kHz is pushing it for a lot of tweeters.

Don, I think it's best to save the different tweeters for a tweeter-specific test. One reason is that there are just to many variables when it comes to tweeter implementation, e.g. there are so many placement options as opposed to 6-7" mids (pillars/kickpanels/dash/sail panels/door, etc.), on or off axis, using the windshield, etc. Even if you did use a "matched" tweeter with every mid in the test, you can basically throw all of those results out the window once they are mounted in a car. 

For example, I once had an excellent setup (to my ears at least) in a 2001 MB S430 and I wanted to duplicate that awesome setup in my Mini Cooper S, using the same mids and tweeters, placement, angles, etc. Well, you can probably guess that this setup absolutely did NOT work in the Mini. The mids actually worked out great, but I had to go with a completely different tweeter and different placement/angles, etc.

9 times out of 10, these 6-7" mids are going to be mounted in the doors, or possibly the kickpanels, so there are a lot less variables. Jerry has a full plate as it is without adding multiple tweeters, passive crossovers, and "matching" everything, etc. It would realistically take a week to do all of that properly. Ultimately , I think that just listening to the mids at up to ~3kHz is really going to give us a pretty clear idea of their performance. Let's KISS, .

Thanks for listening.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Ok, I've been reading all the comments and have decided to put in my 2c. I vote for using 1 tweeter for all the midrange/basses BUT I would like to see a dedicated midrange too. I know there are alot of people interested in a strict midbass evaluation on these drivers besides me around here. My suggestion would be active crossover set at the usual crosses as suggested above. I would say do essentially 2 tests - one for midrange/midbass and one for a 3 way strict midbass setup. I would suggest the 3.125 kHz for the 2 way setup is a great idea. Most tweeters have no problem with this frequency cross especially if we go with LR 24 slopes as suggested. I would cross the mid at 80 Hz for this too. For the 3 way test (if its gonna happen) my suggestion would be for 60 Hz low, 400 Hz midrange and 4 kHz hi and have everything at 24 db slopes. I would say alot of people start off with something very similar and alot of us end up with something very similar in the end too. For the record I think I am at 63 Hz-300Hz-4.5 kHz for my main crosses. I do mix up the slopes and crossover formats (Bessel-Butterworth). The luxury of the Mosconi 6to8. I just love this thing and have only barely tapped its potential. My new toy should be good for a couple years:laugh:


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Ok, now I'm confused... is this a 2-way test only, or a 2-way/3-way test?

I do agree with using a consistent tweeter & mid. Maybe the Scan D3004/602000?

Madisound Speaker Store


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



fish said:


> Ok, now I'm confused... is this a 2-way test only, or a 2-way/3-way test?
> 
> I do agree with using a consistent tweeter & mid. Maybe the Scan D3004/602000?
> 
> Madisound Speaker Store


It orignally was supposed to be both I thought but the talk lately has seemingly been purely 2 way. I am just curious of this myself too - hence my post. I personally am more interested in the pure midbass end but that is just due to my situation. I understand that 2 way testing will benefit more people however. It would just be nice if we could get both but I understand if it is too great of an undertaking. I will take whatever I can get and I definitely appreciate all of the work and effort being put in by everyone (especially Jerry and Erin). As for the Scanspeak suggestion, I agree heavily with the choice but that could give an edge to the Scan 18WU over the others possibly? Gonna be tough finding a quality tweeter however without it being associated with any of the drivers in this test.


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



james2266 said:


> As for the Scanspeak suggestion, I agree heavily with the choice but that could give an edge to the Scan 18WU over the others possibly? Gonna be tough finding a quality tweeter however without it being associated with any of the drivers in this test.



Damn... that's a really good point. 

And yes, I'm very appreciative of Jerry taking the time to get this all in the works regardless of whatever testing method he decides upon, Erin's Klippel tests, & other members' participation (Paypal & listening).


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

IMHO, as long as the tweeter isn't garbage, it'll suffice for the function of the testing. The scan d3004 is certainly a great option but it's not one Jerry plans to use. I'll let him discuss it. 

As for the 3way aspect, not only is it more effort but I don't really think there's much benefit other than lowering the bandpass to see what the driver can do. If anything, playing it as part of a 2-way system will expose it's issues with inductance and higher frequency distortion issues than it would if it were bandpassed.

I know you guys are talking of having 2 different sets of tests... but I just think it's a lot to take on and isn't as necessary as you may otherwise think. This coming from a guy who first suggested doing both sets of tests.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> As for the 3way aspect, not only is it more effort but I don't really think there's much benefit other than lowering the bandpass to see what the driver can do. If anything, playing it as part of a 2-way system will expose it's issues with inductance and higher frequency distortion issues than it would if it were bandpassed.
> .


^ Agreed. AFAIK, nearly all of the drivers that have been chosen to be tested so far are intended to be used up into the midrange frequencies in a 2-way system, or at least none of them are true dedicated midbass only drivers (like the JL ZR-800CW that we know starts to get iffy when used beyond 200-250Hz or so).

RE: Tweeters, I would prefer that the tweeters that are used in the test be the SS d3004 or something very similar that are "widely known to have overall very good, smooth, solid, proven performance". I don't think it's a very good idea to introduce a new or uncommon tweeter for this test. Save it for a separate tweeter evaluation. 

IMHO, this will quickly become a clusterfrack if Jerry tries to test for "all possible implementations" of each driver. Unfortunately, we have to keep it simple or the results will become really confusing (way too many variables), and it will just never get done.

Let's just get it done! 

Over-and-Out.


- Billy B. in La-La land.


----------



## Buzzman

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> not all of the drivers tested have factory passives. . . .


Erin, I agree, and I acknowledged such in my post. I said “[a]cquiring tweeters AND passives might be problematical with regard to the DIY brands, however. Therefore, perhaps the most viable and useful option might be to use an electronic crossover to try multiple crossover frequencies and slopes to assess the "flexibility" of a particular set of drivers and issue grades based on subjective listening.” And, I certainly would not advocate that Jerry undertake to have passives made for each 2-way set that doesn’t have one already. 



bikinpunk said:


> You want a different tweeter so each mid is more matched. Your reason makes sense and I'm on board in some regards. You say this is supposed to help the end user; the person reading the results because they probably won't be using the same tweeter Jerry chooses if he sticks with a single tweeter solution. However, the flip side is that then you're testing a _certain_ tweeter to a _certain_ mid. Consider what I've bolded in your quote. You're certainly right that not everyone will use the same standard tweeter Jerry uses. But, really, what are the odds they will use it if Jerry chooses a different tweeter for every mid? Slim. The only likely case would be for component sets.


Didn’t I suggest component sets? I specifically suggested using complementary tweeters from the midbass manufacturer so that the variables I identified (efficiency and tonal differences [and don’t forget about impedance differences] could be minimized. My point is simple: a 2-way set comprised of matching/complementary midbasses and tweeters will provide the necessary reference against which a pairing of one brand midbass with another brand tweeter can be properly judged or compared. 


bikinpunk said:


> Not everyone here will run a passive setup and - as mentioned already - some raw drivers have no option for a component setup.


True, not everyone will run a passive set-up. But, likewise, not everyone will run an active set-up. I explained what benefits, in my opinion, will accrue from comparing the differences between an active and a passive set-up. That said, I also pointed out, as stated above, that acquiring passives to use with matching tweeters and midranges for the DIY brands is going to be difficult, so “perhaps the most viable and useful option might be to use an electronic crossover to try multiple crossover frequencies and slopes to assess the "flexibility" of a particular set of drivers and issue grades based on subjective listening.” Unless I am missing something, each of the proposed midbass brands already makes a tweeter or tweeters that can easily be paired with the midbasses. Thus, finding a complementary match for the midbass is not a difficult task to accomplish. In this context a passive crossover is not necessary to create a “component set.” Clearly, my post has been misread by many here. 



bikinpunk said:


> You open the door to variance in testing and on top of that, you're stepping very far outside of the original intent of helping the viewer because now you're basically telling the user that in order to get the same experience Jerry's audience did, he'll have to use the same tweeter he did. This is indeed a pitfall if using the same tweeter for all mids, but it's compounded IMHO if you start using a separate tweeter for every mid. So, now you're tying each listening test to one tweeter each rather than the same tweeter for every mid.
> 
> I do think there is merit in level matching the tweeter to the nominal response of each mid. That might be fair and be a good compromise. Plus, it's indicative of a real world situation where level matching is typically one of the first things a user does.
> 
> What you're asking to do is reasonable but it's an entirely different animal. not only are you creating more work on Jerry to accurately "match" a different tweeter to each mid but you're also creating more work and more testing variance. If Jerry chooses a single tweeter as a baseline and all subsequent testing is done using that same tweeter and exact same crossover points, all of his evaluations will be rooted to the exact same situation. In some regards a certain driver may not have a chance to shine (ie: a wideband may not get a chance to show it's stuff) but that's really just kind of the nature of this test itself; it's called Midrange/Midbass.”
> If the crossover point is an issue, then let's discuss possibilities. Would 3.15khz be better? We can arbitrarily pick numbers; it may seem I'm doing so. In fact, I'm picking crossover points based on standard dsp configuration. The new boys on the block allow for manually inserted values for crossover frequencies but the majority of users will pick something they're familiar with or go with the standard 1/3 octave options on their DSP.
> I'm not at all trying to bias the test one way or the other. I'm just trying to keep it close to real world situations.. . .


The crossover point is not the issue. Whether it’s 2.5kHz or 3.15 kHz, in my view it is still the case that the subjective opinions will be based on the sound of the “system.” Level matching will be necessary in every case, but that alone will not resolve the issues I have identified. Thus, and I hope this is clear to all, I see real benefit in using matching tweeters and midbasses from the same manufacturer to create a reference or baseline, *then *using a “universal” tweeter (one not used previously) paired with each midbass (or just those from the sets that score among the highest to reduce the amount of work for Jery) and comparing the results. It will be quite helpful to learn whether this “universal” tweeter changes listener’s impressions of a particular midbass (which I suspect it will), and thus provide better validation for the test. Thus, I don’t see why this step is objectionable. 

Regarding bbfoto’s comment above about varying placement of tweeters in cars and varying results, while that is true, please note that Jerry will be listening to the speakers in a listening room. Thus, these issues will be irrelevant for the test’s purposes.

The only way I see being able to keep this test simple, while fairly assessing these speakers' virtues as midbasses is to not introduce the influences of a tweeter, and simply highpass them at an appropriate frequency (e.g., 80 Hz) and use music that has little to no treble or upper midrange content. There is such music available.


----------



## hatemi

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Why not use a quality wideband driver as a tweeter/midrange? It would make it possible to test the woofers with 250hz and 3khz crossovers without the need for third speaker in the mix. That is if you decide to go to the route of testing with multiple setups in mind.


----------



## n_olympios

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I know I'm late in this party, but I just saw the thread. I'd like to see the Brax Matrix 7" driver in there but I understand it's too little too late. 

Jerry, Erin and all contributors, thank you for this, the audio community should be appreciative and grateful that you take the time and effort. Having taken part in similar group tests in the past I can tell you it's not easy.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

The way I see it is that if the upper end if the same in all the tests, then the only varying difference would be the midrange/midbass driver, and thus allow us to pick differences easier. 

The thought of not using a tweeter still exists, but the problem with not using a tweeter is that even with a fairly low crossover point (2.5k - 3.15k), some of the drivers may extend much better past this point as the slope rolls off and it will make it very hard for the testers to listen only the portion they are supposed to be listening to and not gravitate toward the higher extending driver. Now, we will state how a particular driver has the ability to extend much higher, being a huge benefit for some installs, but that is not the focus of the test.

Right now, the plan is to use a Dynaudio Esotar 330d as the tweeter! It would be hard to argue against this particular tweeter being one of the best ever produced and it should blend very well with any of the test drivers.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Don, I'm sorry for misconstruing your posts. I re-read it, though, and still came to the same conclusion.

I think it simply makes less sense to add even more variables. Truth be told, I'm not sure I really buy in to one tweeter better working with another mid, regardless if it's from the same mfg. If that were the case, everyone would run the exact same brand. I run the same because of the quality of engineering... but there are other tweeters out there that would probably fit the bill for me and not made by the same OEM of the midbass/midrange I use. You could even argue by using a brand matching scheme that one brand's tweeter may perform poorly compared to another and that would taint the subjective evaluation of the mid. So, either way you go, there could be concerns raised for either scenario.

Your point about evaluation the system is true. It is a system evaluation. I think it would be easier on Jerry altogether to remove a tweeter from the equation entirely but I understand his issue with doing so. But no matter what tweeter you use, it's still a system evaluation. If you're going to go this route, I think it's better to have as little variance from test to test as you can so keeping the same tweeter for all testing is logical.
Not every tweeter has the same performance. That's just one additional variable tossed in to the evaluation. So, while it would be a system evaluation with one tweeter, it's that way with a separate tweeter each test and each tweeter performs differently so the results are even more cause for concern when not keeping a constant in the evaluation by using the same tweeter.

Jerry has chosen a driver he feels has a very good frequency response and if this is indeed the case, then it should perform its task just fine.

And the crossover actually does play a role here. A driver's breakup will be more or less audible based on this. Some of the ones I've tested have more severe breakup than the others outside of its pistonic range. The crossover points I suggested really have nothing to do with mitigating that at all, though. They were simply based on common use practices. If Jerry wants to make the passband as high as 4khz, that's his prerogative. On the flip side, some drivers may not get a chance to show their low end authority (the scan flat out dominates all of the drivers I've tested thus far by as much as 2x the linear excursion in some cases). So, there are compromises made for the sake of Jerry's sanity. 

All along I've said that the only thing he really needs to do is:
A) Pick a test method that is applicable to most of the audience he plans to target 
and
B) Stick to it and not modify it mid-stream or try to tackle additional test methods after the fact

I think if he does that he'll have a leg to stand on.


----------



## Shadowmarx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



james2266 said:


> I think it comes down to the myth that something you can't hear is better. I have definitely fallen into that category. My personal vote would be the Hertz ML1600 as I have the ML165 of previous. As the major majority of these drivers are not available for me to ever hear, I would like a reference point. I do not have a pair to send unfortunately tho.


^ has my vote......


----------



## Buzzman

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> The way I see it is that if the upper end if the same in all the tests, then the only varying difference would be the midrange/midbass driver, and thus allow us to pick differences easier.


I still maintain that some combinations will have better synergy with the "universal" tweeter you intend to use, and that will skew the listener's impressions. Which is why I suggest that if you do intend to use a tweeter, having a baseline/reference using a tweeter produced to mate with the midbasses being tested will be essential to understanding what influences, if any, the "universal" tweeter you propose to use might have on the subjective assessments made by the listeners. 



Niebur3 said:


> The thought of not using a tweeter still exists, but the problem with not using a tweeter is that even with a fairly low crossover point (2.5k - 3.15k), some of the drivers may extend much better past this point as the slope rolls off and it will make it very hard for the testers to listen only the portion they are supposed to be listening to and not gravitate toward the higher extending driver. Now, we will state how a particular driver has the ability to extend much higher, being a huge benefit for some installs, but that is not the focus of the test.


Query: Shouldn't the test inform the reader about the overall capabilities of the drivers being tested so the reader can determine for himself which is best suited for his intended application? By utilizing a bandpass set-up, you necessarily make assumptions about where most people wish to crossover between their midbass and tweeter, and as shown by many comments in this thread there is no unanimity on this. So, why not eliminate eliminate as many variables as possible, and thus minimize attacks on the results you get by simply highpassing the midbasses so that they roll off naturally, and use recordings that have no treble or little upper midrange content. I can recommend a number of high quality recordings specifically for this purpose. You and the other listeners will be able to comment on what each respective speaker does with the music to which you are listening and the reader can then determine whether a particular speaker is best suited for their intended application based on those comments. 



Niebur3 said:


> Right now, the plan is to use a Dynaudio Esotar 330d as the tweeter! It would be hard to argue against this particular tweeter being one of the best ever produced and it should blend very well with any of the test drivers.


Without doubt that is an outstanding tweeter. But, you buttress my points. Note that you state it "should blend very well with any of the test drivers." My advice to you is to do everything possible to eliminate "should" from the equation, just so you can maintain you sanity and not have to fend off the kind of attacks that followed the midrange test. Also, there will be many people who do not like that Dynaudio tweeter, whether because they don't like the sound or they just have an aversion to the brand (and we have seen those comments on this forum). And, including a component that has to "blend"' with the item being tested affirms that its sonic signature will be imparted on the overall sound, which will lead to fallout. I guarantee it.


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



hatemi said:


> Why not use a quality wideband driver as a tweeter/midrange? It would make it possible to test the woofers with 250hz and 3khz crossovers without the need for third speaker in the mix. That is if you decide to go to the route of testing with multiple setups in mind.


I like this idea too. 

Or, if it's a 2-way only, play midrange only, then incorporate the constant tweeter on the 2nd test.


----------



## Buzzman

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> Don, I'm sorry for misconstruing your posts. I re-read it, though, and still came to the same conclusion.
> 
> I think it simply makes less sense to add even more variables. Truth be told, I'm not sure I really buy in to one tweeter better working with another mid, regardless if it's from the same mfg. If that were the case, everyone would run the exact same brand. I run the same because of the quality of engineering... but there are other tweeters out there that would probably fit the bill for me and not made by the same OEM of the midbass/midrange I use. You could even argue by using a brand matching scheme that one brand's tweeter may perform poorly compared to another and that would taint the subjective evaluation of the mid. So, either way you go, there could be concerns raised for either scenario.
> 
> Your point about evaluation the system is true. It is a system evaluation. I think it would be easier on Jerry altogether to remove a tweeter from the equation entirely but I understand his issue with doing so. But no matter what tweeter you use, it's still a system evaluation. If you're going to go this route, I think it's better to have as little variance from test to test as you can so keeping the same tweeter for all testing is logical.
> Not every tweeter has the same performance. That's just one additional variable tossed in to the evaluation. So, while it would be a system evaluation with one tweeter, it's that way with a separate tweeter each test and each tweeter performs differently so the results are even more cause for concern when not keeping a constant in the evaluation by using the same tweeter.
> 
> Jerry has chosen a driver he feels has a very good frequency response and if this is indeed the case, then it should perform its task just fine.
> 
> And the crossover actually does play a role here. A driver's breakup will be more or less audible based on this. Some of the ones I've tested have more severe breakup than the others outside of its pistonic range. The crossover points I suggested really have nothing to do with mitigating that at all, though. They were simply based on common use practices. If Jerry wants to make the passband as high as 4khz, that's his prerogative. On the flip side, some drivers may not get a chance to show their low end authority (the scan flat out dominates all of the drivers I've tested thus far by as much as 2x the linear excursion in some cases). So, there are compromises made for the sake of Jerry's sanity.
> 
> All along I've said that the only thing he really needs to do is:
> A) Pick a test method that is applicable to most of the audience he plans to target
> and
> B) Stick to it and not modify it mid-stream or try to tackle additional test methods after the fact
> 
> I think if he does that he'll have a leg to stand on.


Erin, no worries at all about misconstruing my post. To be clear, I don’t think utilizing a 2-way system is a good idea for this test for the reasons I have given. I sense you are ambivalent about a 2-way set-up for the test as well, but you are just not as firm in your belief as I am in mine. I think the alternative approach I have offered makes the most sense since the objective is to evaluate these drivers’ performance given their stated purpose and for applications typically used by this forum’s members. Picking up on your comments about the Scan’s excursion capabilities, if the testers wanted to assess this performance area they can simply lower the highpass frequency. In the end, he should end up with an assessment of these drivers over their entire useable frequency range. I think my suggested method is the simplest and will expose Jerry and the test to fewer objections, criticisms, etc. 

If Jerry ultimately decides he wants to utilize a 2-way test, perhaps it’s not clear that I am suggesting that there be two rounds of tests conducted: 
1. An initial round of tests in which each midbass is paired with a matching tweeter, and 
2. A subsequent round in which the midbass is then paired with a “universal tweeter.”
Where you and I differ is that I don’t think conducting the first round “adds more variables.” Rather, in my opinion it provides a reference with which no one can reasonably argue as the variable of combining another manufacturer’s product with the midbass is neutralized. How one brand’s tweeter might perform relative to another brand’s tweeter would be rendered irrelevant by the second round of testing. The “universal” tweeter becomes the control component and both sets of results can be compared. If the pairing with the universal tweeter results in more or less favorable assessments, then that will be known, and there won’t be any speculation as to “what if.” So, yes, it might well be the case that the combination of the universal tweeter and a particular midbass gets more positive comments than the combination of the same brand tweeter and midbass, but that’s something worth knowing based on empirical evidence. 

And, one more thing, if Jerry decides to go the 2-way route I would suggest that he not use the Dynaudio tweeter because there will no doubt be opinions that the Dynaudio midbass had an advantage with this pairing. He will need to use a tweeter that has no design DNA with any of the tested midbasses. But, again, I don’t think this is the method he should use. I have said all I think I can say about this, so it's up to Jerry to decide how he wants to proceed.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> #2. The Tweeter. There needs to be some type of constant in this test in order to properly evaluate the Midbass/Midrange driver, and to discern it's strengths or weaknesses. Therefore I vote to use a single tweeter for all tests, preferably a well-regarded one that can extend cleanly down to 2kHz @ 24db/octave. And yes, ideally the tweeters need to be level-matched to each set of mids. I'm torn between wanting the crossover to be set at either ~2kHz or ~3kHz @24dB/Octave. I'm leaning towards 3kHz, as nearly any tweeter one ultimately decides to run in their actual install will be able play without strain at moderately high levels. ~2kHz is pushing it for a lot of tweeters.
> ^ agreed except that it is better to leave the tweeter at a specific SPL and match the midrange to it (not the other way around) - the test should be performed @ the same SPL level or the loudest mid might (and should) actually bring out more details
> 
> Don, I think it's best to save the different tweeters for a tweeter-specific test. One reason is that there are just to many variables when it comes to tweeter implementation, e.g. there are so many placement options as opposed to 6-7" mids (pillars/kickpanels/dash/sail panels/door, etc.), on or off axis, using the windshield, etc. Even if you did use a "matched" tweeter with every mid in the test, you can basically throw all of those results out the window once they are mounted in a car.
> I understand Don's point of view - synergy is what I call it.
> Problem with adding different tweeters to have a baseline of the mid's capability is that some manufacturers might have much better passives than others, or much better tweeters than others...
> I also think that keeping 1 tweeter for the whole test seems logical
> 
> Let's KISS, .


For the test, I suggest to use a tweeter. Maybe a tweeter from a brand not in the test in order to minimize attacks on the results... 
Listenning with a tweeter is much more pleasing to the ear and the testers will thank you 

Kelvin 

PS: for the tweeter comment, Don beat me to it


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Maybe a Morel Supremo Piccolo would be a fitting tweeter? There is no Morel woofer involved in the test right?

I've read so many good things about that tweeter so I believe it is one of the top dogs. Never heard one sadly enough.

Hiquphon OW1, OW2 or OW4 come to mind...

And for the test I would suggest running the midbass with the (universal) tweeter and play the same track with the woofer by itself, same bandpass following the 2-way to show what it brings to the table (bandpassed as in the 2 way).


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

B&G Neo3PDR would be my vote for a tweeter to use.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Wesayso said:


> And for the test I would suggest running the midbass with the (universal) tweeter and play the same track with the woofer by itself, same bandpass following the 2-way to show what it brings to the table (bandpassed as in the 2 way).


^Agreed.

Jerry, I also have a spare new set of both the B&G Neo3 PDR's and the Hiquphon OW1's if you'd like to use them. LMK.


----------



## Lance_S

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I wish the audible physics xr6.5 was still available. I would love to see how that driver would stack up in this test. Thanks for all who participate, this is a great addition to the community.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> ^Agreed.
> 
> Jerry, I also have a spare new set of both the B&G Neo3 PDR's and the Hiquphon OW1's if you'd like to use them. LMK.


Both these seem like reasonable options (I am I strongly considering have you send 1 or both of them) but I do have a question for anyone to answer. If the Dynaudio 330D (one of the best tweeters ever made) could bias the test because it could mate better sonically with the Mid-woofer driver, then how do we know that none of the tweeters suggested above won't mate better sonically with 1 driver over another? How does changing brand names fix this issue (if it is even a real issue)? Isn't a speaker supposed to play neutral (flat frequency curve) so that I could choose any tweeter made and mate it with any Mid-woofer and have it sound good?

For years Dynaudio, Morel and Scan, along with many others have been paired together in creating great sounding towers (Dunleavy, Duntech, etc). I have even heard personally, Dynaudio Woofers with Focal Tweeters with great results. Is it really a sonic thing or is it making sure the proper levels are set between the 2 drivers?


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> If the Dynaudio 330D (one of the best tweeters ever made) could bias the test because it could mate better sonically with the Mid-woofer driver, then how do we know that none of the tweeters suggested above won't mate better sonically with 1 driver over another? How does changing brand names fix this issue (if it is even a real issue)? Isn't a speaker supposed to play neutral (flat frequency curve) so that I could choose any tweeter made and mate it with any Mid-woofer and have it sound good?


Exactly my point.


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I think the only purpose of using a non Dynaudio tweeter is to remove the suspicion of the advantage for the Dynaudio woofer. With the Dynaudio mid as a winner in the previous listening test it would be a good thing to remove that doubt. (you'd never hear the end of it )
The tweeters mentioned above should be good enough to take on that part. And yes, it could mate better with one of the woofers in the test set, but the beauty is nobody would know up front which one that would be.


----------



## Shadowmarx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I have a B/N set of Vifa xt25sc I'll send ya u can use them....


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I mentioned the Neo 3 because Zaph has tested it so you know how it performs in regardsd to measured data. They are fairly cheap, easy to purchase, and can play very very low if needed to.


----------



## captainobvious

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> I mentioned the Neo 3 because Zaph has tested it so you know how it performs in regardsd to measured data. They are fairly cheap, easy to purchase, and can play very very low if needed to.


In addtion, being a completely different _type_ of driver, they should have a unique sound that likely wouldn't benefit or detract significantly between the used mid drivers. Good choice.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Just remembered that the Neo3's that I have are the Non-PDR version without the rear cup. They are from npdang's clearance sale way back when, lol.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/2456-bg-neo3-planar-tweeters-clearance.html

Don't know if that changes anything?

They're still yours for the test if you want them, Jerry.


----------



## Shadowmarx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Right, I'm just try'n to help out... I could ship them and pay for the return...
Just try'n to give back to the forum...
For all the help and info I have got'n since I've been here.



bbfoto said:


> Just remembered that the Neo3's that I have are the Non-PDR version without the rear cup. They are from npdang's clearance sale way back when, lol.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/2456-bg-neo3-planar-tweeters-clearance.html
> 
> Don't know if that changes anything?
> 
> They're still yours for the test if you want them, Jerry.


----------



## matdotcom2000

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I have a set of jbl 660 gti midbasses I would be willing to send in if you guys want!!! PM me and let me know.. I had no idea this was going on other wise I would have suggested earlier


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I for one would love to see those JBL 660GTI's mids in this test. I've never seen any good independent objective test data or really thorough subjective info on them either.

[email protected], you don't realize just how many high-end drivers are available until a test like this comes up, LOL. I realize you have to cut it off somewhere though, Jerry.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If Jerry isn't interested in using these in his test, I'd still like to test them myself if you're interested in that.


----------



## pionkej

bikinpunk said:


> If Jerry isn't interested in using these in his test, I'd still like to test them myself if you're interested in that.


Yo dawg, I can hand deliver you a set of 660's to test on Sunday if you'd like.


----------



## matdotcom2000

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

660s are some bad motha shut your mouth speakers just to warn you...


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



pionkej said:


> Yo dawg, I can hand deliver you a set of 660's to test on Sunday if you'd like.


Awesome!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Are the 660's still in production? I want to limit the test to only speakers sill available.


----------



## ErinH

I figured they were. 

John, that sounds great. See you then.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It doesn't look like they are in production according to their website. I think I will end up passing, although it is very hard to pass on testing these.


----------



## ErinH

I agree. If they're not in production I wouldn't really worry about it.


----------



## pionkej

Niebur3 said:


> It doesn't look like they are in production according to their website. I think I will end up passing, although it is very hard to pass on testing these.


Jerry,

I can't find them on the website either, but you can still purchase them from Harmon via direct link (below), Sonicelectonix, onlinecarstereo, and eBay. AND you can buy the woofers from Harmon Parts (I know since I did it about a month ago to make a matched pair for the 3rd one I pulled from my Murano when I went away from the MS8). 

http://www.jbl.com/EN-US/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?PID=660GTI

I'll still give it to Erin to test (I think we're both curious about their performance because of some pretty bold statements Andy W. has made about them). If you want them, I have one that is "broken in" and one that is BNIB...you could test either one you wanted. No sweat if you'd like to pass either.


----------



## ErinH

I agree. If they're not in production I wouldn't really worry about it.

But it looks like they may be.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Well, we still need a final offering.....do we want to go with the JBL over the Blue or 18 Sound or Morel?


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

So the list is what now? 
Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H (Automotive Version) - have
Dynaudio Esotar2 e650 - have
Hybrid L6SE - have
ScanSpeak Illuminator 7" Paper Cone Woofer 18WU/4741T-00 - have
PHASS MD0790 - have
Pioneer Stage4 - need (*ISTundra* sending)
Exodus Anarchy - have (*nar93da* sending)
Vifa ne180W - need (*highly* hopefully sending) 
Seas Excel 

You have 2 spots left? I'd like to see the 18Sound 6ND430 in the test if I had to choose 

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



subwoofery said:


> So the list is what now?
> Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H (Automotive Version) - have
> Dynaudio Esotar2 e650 - have
> Hybrid L6SE - have (not in pic but will be back in time for the test)
> ScanSpeak Illuminator 7" Paper Cone Woofer 18WU/4741T-00 - have
> PHASS MD0790 - have
> Pioneer Stage4 - need (*ISTundra* sending)
> Exodus Anarchy - have
> Vifa ne180W - have
> Seas Excel - Not sure who is sending, would have to look at the thread again, but do not have yet
> 
> You have 2 spots left? I'd like to see the 18Sound 6ND430 in the test if I had to choose
> 
> 
> Kelvin


Teaser:


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Pio stage 4 midbass are heading to Bikin for testing first


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Gotcha. Sounds Good!


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

He he... Sweeeet  

Kelvin


----------



## Rupinder

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

thank you for showing us the goodies.look at the badass illuminator midbass i guess it must have the most cone area of all these midbasses


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

FWIW, the lightest of the midbass are the Vifa and the heaviest is the Exodus, closely followed by the Scan/AT.


----------



## hatemi

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Those Scans make me consider of selling my L8V2 and getting them...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Just wish they made a 22w illuminator.


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Just wish they made a 22w illuminator.


good grief... how deep would THAT be?!


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



danno14 said:


> good grief... how deep would THAT be?!


Exactly my thoughts. I am swinging back and forth as to whether to upgrade my 6 inch midbass (one of these likely) or going with an 8 or larger midbass and praying it fits in behind the door card without hacking it up. I would love to try the Scan Rev 8s but they are what 100 mm depth If I go 8 likely the Dyn MW182 or Morel elate 9 (new one). Really want to see what this test reveals. It will be a fun read nonetheless and I thank all involved for making it happen. 

Am I the only one that liked the suggestion of putting in a set of mw182 into this test to see what the advantage/disadvantage of the larger driver would be? I guess that would be a totally different type of test tho


----------



## matdotcom2000

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

So I guess no 660 gti then


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^We should PM Andy Wehmeyer to see if the 660GTI's are still in production. Would really like to see these in the test.

Wouldn't mind having a pair of Mark Brooks/Audible Physics new 6.5" Arian mids in this test as well. Initial impressions by Jason (bertholomey) look very promising.

*SEAS W18NX-001 NEXTEL* - I'm back in town from business, so I'll be able to ship these to Erin this Tuesday (Aug. 14th) to get them on the Klippel, and he'll forward them to Jerry on my dime. Might send some other drivers to Erin as well if he wants them to test.

I also have the B&G Neo3 (non-PDR) tweeters and Hiquphon OW1 tweeters that were discussed to be used as the main tweeters for this test. Could also send the Alpine SPX-17PRO mids and Pioneer TSC-720PRS mids to Erin to Klippel. I'll send whatever he wants to test.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^ send me a PM with the other drivers you're considering.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> ^ send me a PM with the other drivers you're considering.


Will do.

FYI, I PM'd and emailed Andy Wehmeyer regarding the JBL 660GTI production/availability, so I will post here if I hear back from him.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I think we are going to include the JBL since so many are calling for it, but let me know what Andy says.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



james2266 said:


> Exactly my thoughts. I am swinging back and forth as to whether to upgrade my 6 inch midbass (one of these likely) or going with an 8 or larger midbass and praying it fits in behind the door card without hacking it up. I would love to try the Scan Rev 8s but they are what 100 mm depth If I go 8 likely the Dyn MW182 or Morel elate 9 (new one). Really want to see what this test reveals. It will be a fun read nonetheless and I thank all involved for making it happen.
> 
> Am I the only one that liked the suggestion of putting in a set of mw182 into this test to see what the advantage/disadvantage of the larger driver would be? I guess that would be a totally different type of test tho


111mm deep actually. I'm looking at using two of these per side in the kicks of a stick shift car.

A 22w illuminator would most likely be between 117mm-133mm deep judging from the smaller sizes. 117mm if it matches the depth-diameter ratio of the 18w.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> I think we are going to include the JBL since so many are calling for it, but let me know what Andy says.


Awesome! I'll keep you posted, Jerry.

Thanks.

Billy B.


----------



## Shadowmarx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'd still like to see the MLK1600 tested....


----------



## fish

Niebur3 said:


> I think we are going to include the JBL since so many are calling for it, but let me know what Andy says.


Does this mean the 18 Sound 6ND430 is out?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

No, we can still do the 18 Sound. Who is going to send me a pair?


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> No, we can still do the 18 Sound. Who is going to send me a pair?


Jason (thehatedguy) mentioned earlier in this thread he would... unless they're already in his kicks.


----------



## ErinH

Winslow always offers stuff up and never sends it to me. Slacker.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I never heard back from anyone. They are in the kicks...literally. But not connected to anything or powered up...not even screwed down/in yet. One looks like it had an accident with a spray foam can (it did) in the back, but nothing that would effect how it sounds or looks from the front side.

I just thought no one wanted to test them since I never heard back. I would have to find some boxes to ship them in since I threw away the ones they came in after holding on to them in case someone wanted me to send them out for testing.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

And if looking at tweeters, the idea of a wideband as a tweeter...I dunno about. I would want a tweeter that is at least as sensitive as the mids being testing so you wouldn't have to pad the mid down to the wideband's level. Just to preserve as much dynamics from the mid as you can get since we are talking about midrange testing.

If the 18Sound went, you have a 92 dB sensitive mid there, pairing it to an 80 something dB sensitive wideband would be a serious handicap in terms of dynamics and output IMO.

The Neo 3 is good because it has decent sensitivity, has independent 3rd party data to verify it's performance, not too expensive- if anyone wants to purchase them, I know a guy who can get wholesale pricing at PE on them (wow, have gone way up in price since I last looked...thanks to neo costs), in production, no afflilation to anyone testing (I know how some guys will cry bias even though we are looking at mids here), and they were a forum boner 10 years back.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, do you want me to send you the B&G Neo3 (non-PDR) and/or Hiquphon OW1 tweeters for the test?

If so, I will send them along with the SEAS W18NX-001 mids. Let me know ASAP and I'll get all of these out to Erin and he can forward them all to you when he's done Klippel-testing the Seas.

Thanks,

Billy B.


----------



## ErinH

Got the JBL set today to test. May wind up testing all of it rather than just the mid only.


----------



## matdotcom2000

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

you will love the set with dispite the cheesy case


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



matdotcom2000 said:


> you will love the set with dispite the cheesy case


I thought the case was quite nice looking from the pictures; professional. Just like alot of other top brands do with their top offerings. Great protection for shipping. I am curious how these will stack up against the rest just like alot of others apparently.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I am about 95% certain the GTis borrow a lot from the Synthesis home speakers and/or the studio monitors. They should be technically very good.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> Got the JBL set today to test. May wind up testing all of it rather than just the mid only.


Sounds good to me! Would be nice to see how the tweeters perform as well.  BTW, I just sent you a PM.

*IMPORTANT:

Okay Jerry et all, to reiterate, here are the drivers I have available and am willing to send in for Erin's Klippel testing and the Midbass/Midrange Shootout:

1. Seas W18NX-001 pair
2. B&G Neo3 (non-PDR) tweeter pair
3. Hiquphon OW1 tweeter pair
4. Pioneer Premier TS-C720PRS 6.75" mid pair
5. Alpine SPX-17PRO 6.75" mid pair*

*PLEASE LET ME KNOW ASAP what you want me to send so I can get these off to Erin tomorrow or Tuesday! I will be leaving town for another 3-week photo shoot so this is my ONLY CHANCE to ship these out!*


I will pay for all shipping to/from Erin & Jerry and back to me for this test.

I also have the following driver pairs available if Erin is interested in Klippel testing any of them, even if they don't apply to this 6.5"-7" test:

Pioneer Premier TS-C520PRS 5.25" mids









Alpine SPX-13PRO 5.25" mids & Tweeters (Vifa xt25 derivative tweeters)









All of these drivers are new...mostly backups for various installs I've had over the years, so they have NOT had any break-in.

Again, PLEASE let me know ASAP what you definitely want me to send for the test as I will ONLY HAVE ONE CHANCE to get these Shipped!

Thanks everyone!

Billy Bodwell
Los Angeles area


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

YO, Jerry and Erin! PLEASE respond to my latest PM's ASAP! Oh...and when you do, Please include your PHONE # for Shipping purposes! Got to get the SEAS W18NX-001's out to you tomorrow (TUESDAY) or it will NOT happen.

Are these going directly to Jerry, or to Erin first???...

I don't have either of your Shipping Addresses or PayPal addys!

Thanks Amigos!


----------



## ErinH

Replied. 

Bout to send another with my digits, yo!


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> Replied.
> 
> Bout to send another with my digits, yo!


Got it, Yo! And I received Jerry's PM as well. Thanks guys...appreciate the quick response.  The Seas W18NX-001 pair will be off to Erin today. Please handle with care and let me know when you receive them.


----------



## Rupinder

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

that alpine spx pro looks a lot like the sliced paper cone of the scan revelators


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Erin,

The Seas W18NX001 mids have been shipped to you today (August 14th) via USPS Priority Mail.

You should receive them this Thursday. Please let me know when you receive them.

This set is new and has not seen power so it will be your duty to "break them in"! 

Thanks.

Billy B.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Rupinder said:


> that alpine spx pro looks a lot like the sliced paper cone of the scan revelators


IMO this was intentional by Alpine marketing so that they resembled their #F1 Status components which are modified Scan-Speak Revelator drivers with the slit paper cones.

The ridges in SPX mids are only pressed-in or molded into the cone, not actually cut/then glued, but they say this achieves a similar result and makes the cone more rigid in the process.

IMO&E, the SPX mids are EXCELLENT MIDRANGE drivers (both the 5.25" & 6.75") but they fall quite a bit short in the midBASS department. Combine them with a top-notch 8"-9" dedicated midbass and I think most people would be very impressed. They always seem to create very good imaging, staging, and depth right out of the box without much work at all.

Anyway, let's get back on topic, sorry...


----------



## lucas569

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> Got the JBL set today to test. May wind up testing all of it rather than just the mid only.


God ive always wanted to try this set. ive read nothing but great reviews on these


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



lucas569 said:


> God ive always wanted to try this set. ive read nothing but great reviews on these


ummm...

I have to admit, when I saw Andy talking a good game on these, I kind of thought that may just be some marketing hype. Nothing against the guy, but I'm just being honest.

After the testing I've just completed I must say that I'm pretty dang impressed. As far as linear throw goes, these rival the Exodus Anarchy as one of the most linear drivers I've yet to measure. 


Displacement Limits thresholds can be changed in Processing property page
X Bl @ Bl min=82%	7.4	mm	Displacement limit due to force factor variation
X C @ C min=75%	8.9	mm	Displacement limit due to compliance variation
X L @ Z max=10 %	>10.3	mm	Displacement limit due to inductance variation
X d @ d2=10%	18.7	mm	Displacement limit due to IM distortion (Doppler)

Limited by Bl at 7.4mm. The Exodus,too, was limited by Bl at 7.7mm. Pretty marginal differences.


----------



## lucas569

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> ummm...
> 
> I have to admit, when I saw Andy talking a good game on these, I kind of thought that may just be some marketing hype. Nothing against the guy, but I'm just being honest.
> 
> After the testing I've just completed I must say that I'm pretty dang impressed. As far as linear throw goes, these rival the Exodus Anarchy as one of the most linear drivers I've yet to measure.



rub it in! i had a chance to buy a set once and i didnt cause ive never heard them!  Ive been let down by word of mouth before so like to demo before i purchase.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

the JBL testing is done. I just wrote up my review/results on my site but haven't hit the "publish" button just yet.

Trying to decide if I want to wait to release the results after Jerry completes his test so we can post all of his test results and all of mine together or just buck the system and start leaking my results as I go.

Go ahead... influence my decision. 



On another note, guys, I really would appreciate some feedback from those of you who have or are submitting drivers to test. I've gotten one down. I've got the Seas coming to me tomorrow (after I pick them up from USPS; wasn't here to sign for them) and will have it tested probably next Monday night barring anything unforeseen. That will only be two, however, out of 10. 

I know I've tested some of them before, but I really need a chance to test them again. I've got new tools at my disposal and really need a way to compare them all on the same level playing field. It takes a lot of time for me to do it so I'm not asking just to have something to do. Trust me, I've got enough on my plate as it is. This just is something that needs to be done.

Jerry have you heard back from anyone regarding this?

LMK folks. I appreciate it!


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Erin,

Great to see your results on the the JBL GTI 660's.  I'll look forward to your full test results/review whenever you decide to post it on your site. 

I greatly appreciate your time and energy spent on testing/future tests of all these drivers. I know you learn a lot in the process for your own interests, but we all know "time is money" and you are spending/will spend A LOT of time doing these tests. I'll try to throw some extra dinero your way whenever I can, and hope others will do the same, even if it's just the equivalent of a 6-pack of good beer! 

Maybe I'm just having a brain fart because I'm exhausted, but what exactly did you want feedback on or suggestions for???

P.S. Sorry you have to pickup the Seas' at the Post Office...I didn't want my babies just left on your doorstep unattended. 


Okay, Flame suit on...

Regarding the listening test, I'm sure that Jerry has a good system in place, especially after having conducted the first test.  I'll throw my thoughts out there for better or worse:

No alcoholic beverages or mind-altering drugs to be consumed during testing! Party after the test is complete! 

Conduct testing very similar to a SQ Competition (minus the installation scoring obviously, but Double-Blind, of course). Use specific test tracks in the same order for all of the drivers being tested (burn a CD with the tracks from the IASCA/MECA/Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disk,Sheffield Labs, Musical Artist, etc.).

Test Track Suggestions: Chesky Maracas/Shaker Center Image Track, IASCA 1998 Man's Voice L/LC/C/RC/R Track, IASCA 7-Snare Drum Hits L-to-R Image Placement Track, Chesky Voice and Drum Placement/Depth Tracks, Jim Keltner/Ron Tutt Drum Tracks (Sheffield Labs), Various Music Tracks. (I'm sure I'm forgetting some good ones).

Create and Print a "Score Sheet" listing the categories to be tested, that correspond to the order the test tracks will be played, with a field for ratings from 1-10 only, and then space for a short note. Such as:

CATEGORIES TO TEST (Rating from 1-10, with Quick Notes for each):

Image Height: 1-10, Quick Note (Chest Level, Eye Level, Other)

Image Width: 1-10, Quick Note (at speakers, beyond speakers, narrower than speakers)

Image Depth: 1-10, Quick Note (at speaker plane, forward of speaker plane, behind speaker plane)

Center Image Size: 1-10, Quick Note (Pinpoint, Realistically Sized, Large/Vague)

Center Image Stability: 1-10, Quick Note (Solid Placement, Drifts L/R xx Inches, etc.)

Image Placement/Sound Stage: 1-10, Quick Note (...)

Separation of Instruments/Vocals: 1-10, Quick Note (Distinct Separation, Good/Average Separation, Very Little to No Separation)

Midrange Clarity/Detail: 1-10, Quick Note (Extreme Detail, Good Detail, Lacking Detail, Shrill/Harsh, Dull/Mellow, Bloom, etc.)

Midbass Clarity/Detail: 1-10, Quick Note (Extreme Detail, Good Detail, Lacking Detail, Snappy, Muddy/Thick, etc.)

Midrange Extension/Upper Range: 1-10, Quick Note 

Midbass Extension/Lower Range: 1-10, Quick Note

Midrange Output Capabilty: 1-10, Quick Note 

Midbass Output Capabilty: 1-10, Quick Note 

Transient Response/Attack/Decay: 1-10, Quick Note 

Realism (Do instruments and vocals sound natural, lifelike/real?): 1-10, Quick Note (Vocals sent chills down my spine, Saxophones are too Raspy, etc.)

Overall Impression: 1-10, Notes (Favorite, Really Like, Okay, Not for me, Best for ___________ implementation)




Disclaimer: I've posted this while under the influence of my favorite beer. 

Buuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrpppp!

THAT IS ALL/


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

JBL 660gti results are up:
JBL 660GTi Midwoofer Testing | Medley's Musings


----------



## highly

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Exceptional! Thanks Erin!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> the JBL testing is done. I just wrote up my review/results on my site but haven't hit the "publish" button just yet.
> 
> Trying to decide if I want to wait to release the results after Jerry completes his test so we can post all of his test results and all of mine together or just buck the system and start leaking my results as I go.
> 
> Go ahead... influence my decision.
> 
> 
> 
> On another note, guys, I really would appreciate some feedback from those of you who have or are submitting drivers to test. I've gotten one down. I've got the Seas coming to me tomorrow (after I pick them up from USPS; wasn't here to sign for them) and will have it tested probably next Monday night barring anything unforeseen. That will only be two, however, out of 10.
> 
> I know I've tested some of them before, but I really need a chance to test them again. I've got new tools at my disposal and really need a way to compare them all on the same level playing field. It takes a lot of time for me to do it so I'm not asking just to have something to do. Trust me, I've got enough on my plate as it is. This just is something that needs to be done.
> 
> Jerry have you heard back from anyone regarding this?
> 
> LMK folks. I appreciate it!


Erin, I have not heard anything about any more drivers. Do you have the Stage4 yet? I will put out a final call and then I guess it is what it is!

Last call! Current list is:

Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H (Automotive Version) - have
Dynaudio Esotar2 e650 - have
Hybrid L6SE - have (will have in time for the test)
ScanSpeak Illuminator 7" Paper Cone Woofer 18WU/4741T-00 - have
PHASS MD0790 - have
Pioneer Stage4 - need (*ISTundra* sending - Erin may have or may be in route)
Exodus Anarchy - have
Vifa ne180W - have
Seas Excel - Erin Has

That is all I know about that is definite!

Any other, PM me or post here and I'll either authorize or decline the driver for the test. Do not just send them in as we need to keep the number under control.

Thanks Everyone!


----------



## lucas569

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> JBL 660gti results are up:
> JBL 660GTi Midwoofer Testing | Medley's Musings


I hate you! That driver is impressive! I loved my scans in my previous car but have been on the fence w them in my subi due to depth. Now i may look into hunting some jbl's down! 

Im in awe on the numbers, Just floored.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That's what you get when you have HI's budget and drawing from the Synthesis designs.


----------



## ErinH

bbfoto said:


> Maybe I'm just having a brain fart because I'm exhausted, but what exactly did you want feedback on or suggestions for???


I just mean feedback I regards to "yea, have Jerry send my drivers to you after he tests them" or "I'll send mine to you and you can send em to Jerry". 

I haven't heard from most folks sending the drivers in for Jerry's test so I'm just trying to make sure everyone is cool with me testing them after Jerry and/or can send me theirs and I'll pass em to Jerry.


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Guys- i know the 650's have been tested before, so I will leave it to your discretion whether to rerun them or not. Just let me know if I should throw $$ in for freight. Thanks again for your efforts!



(doh! Sometimes I'm dumb)


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

the Seas w18 testing for xmax is now complete. I spent the entire day yesterday playing it at varying levels of power with tones and pink noise to ensure it is broken in. a few quick impedance sweeps along the way and it's was ready to test. here's a video of the final round of testing. I pushed this driver about as far as I could. It was pretty quiet (the rattling you *may* be able to hear in the video is from the tools in the toolchest) mechanically, though there was some noise emitting from the driver that shouldn't be an issue in standard listening conditions. 

the measured linear xmax is surprisingly low at only 3.0mm, limited by suspension. But, it turns out it pretty much matches Nyugen's test from 2005, showing a linear xmax of about 2.5mm which can be found here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/1025-seas-w18nx-excel.html
If you take 75% of the Cms value of ~1.0, you get 0.75. Draw the line in the y-scale to 0.75, then find where that lines up on the x-axis and you get about 2.5mm or so (eyeballing it). So, his results match mine. He was able to drive the woofer to a larger degree, thus getting a larger mechanical xmax 


In my test, Bl was not able to resolve because the offset in suspension. IOW, this is the furthest I can physically push a driver, even with the protection parameters set to the absolute minimum it can go for suspension. Had it not been for the offset in suspension, Bl likely would have resolved and given you a better feel for maximum excursion but it doesn't really matter because what we care about is _linear _throw in an apples to apples comparison of klippel tests. this isn't the first time I've been unable to reach full resolution of a driver so it's not unusual. It is what it is.

I'll finish testing on Monday night and post all the results up sometime after that on my site. But, for now here are a video and picture summary of the LSI testing.


----------



## bassfromspace

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> the Seas w18 testing for xmax is now complete. I spent the entire day yesterday playing it at varying levels of power with tones and pink noise to ensure it is broken in. a few quick impedance sweeps along the way and it's was ready to test. here's a video of the final round of testing. I pushed this driver about as far as I could. It was pretty quiet (the rattling you *may* be able to hear in the video is from the tools in the toolchest) mechanically, though there was some noise emitting from the driver that shouldn't be an issue in standard listening conditions.
> 
> the measured linear xmax is surprisingly low at only 3.0mm, limited by suspension. But, it turns out it pretty much matches Nyugen's test from 2005, showing a linear xmax of about 2.5mm which can be found here:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/1025-seas-w18nx-excel.html
> If you take 75% of the Cms value of ~1.0, you get 0.75. Draw the line in the y-scale to 0.75, then find where that lines up on the x-axis and you get about 2.5mm or so (eyeballing it). So, his results match mine. He was able to drive the woofer to a larger degree, thus getting a larger mechanical xmax
> 
> 
> In my test, Bl was not able to resolve because the offset in suspension. IOW, this is the furthest I can physically push a driver, even with the protection parameters set to the absolute minimum it can go for suspension. Had it not been for the offset in suspension, Bl likely would have resolved and given you a better feel for maximum excursion but it doesn't really matter because what we care about is _linear _throw in an apples to apples comparison of klippel tests. this isn't the first time I've been unable to reach full resolution of a driver so it's not unusual. It is what it is.
> 
> I'll finish testing on Monday night and post all the results up sometime after that on my site. But, for now here are a video and picture summary of the LSI testing.


Good stuff!


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Cool. Glad you got them okay and thanks for testing them and for the video as well.  Good to see that Nyugen's tests match up closely with yours so far.

Oh, almost forgot...Erin, there'll be a PayPal coming your way to ship them off to Jerry!


----------



## Wy2quiet

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Curious...at high listening levels down to say 100hz, isn't 2.5mm one way a fairly low number? Could we say at that crossover it's power handling would be fairly low? (Seas) 50w?


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

seas w18nx is done testing and boxed back up.

Jerry, are you testing drivers as a pair or mono? need to know if I have to send both the JBL's to you or not.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

SEAS data is up:
Seas W18NX-001 | Medley's Musings

discuss here:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/134980-seas-w18nx-001-a.html


----------



## nar93da

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm perfectly fine with the Anarchy's going back to you Erin after Jerry's done with them. I have nothing planned with them anytime soon. Keep them as long as you need.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> seas w18nx is done testing and boxed back up.
> 
> Jerry, are you testing drivers as a pair or mono? need to know if I have to send both the JBL's to you or not.


Send me the pair....we listen in Stereo !


----------



## BrianAbington

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, I sent you an email regarding the pm you sent me. I'd love to join the listening test. I have a pair of 8" woofers I'd be willing to bring. They came out of a pair of JBL HLS 810 book shelf speakers and in my opinion are really good mid bass speakers. (and yes they are still available from JBL)


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BrianAbington said:


> Jerry, I sent you an email regarding the pm you sent me. I'd love to join the listening test. I have a pair of 8" woofers I'd be willing to bring. They came out of a pair of JBL HLS 810 book shelf speakers and in my opinion are really good mid bass speakers. (and yes they are still available from JBL)


Great!!! Sorry, can't bring the 8" woofers. This is limited to certain drivers that are 6-7" only. I'll show you them when we meet up.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Okay, after doing over some details about this test, I would like to know if anyone is willing to lend me a Zapco DC series amplifier (any size is fine) with an RCA adapter. This amp will be used to run the tweeters and will allow me the opportunity to pre-measure the gain difference between the tweeter and all the mid-woofers since I can control the gain via a laptop instead of turning a random dial. Oh, and I also need the software. 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ErinH

What's producing the signal? If you have am external DSP you can go that route. 

I'd help with that if I could but I don't have any zapco gear. Have you considered asking the folks at zapco if they'd be willing to loan you an open box or the like for this test? Never hurts to ask.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I don't have a relationship with any of them. Do you know who I should contact? 

FWIW, The studio I am testing can split the signal and then crossover the mid-woofer, but they have no way to crossover the tweeter. Just a full range signal out. An external DSP would also work. So I guess a DSP6, Bitone.1, etc. I just thought it may be easier to get a loner amp from someone !


----------



## Genxx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I have a few DC350.2 laying around the house. Would one of those work. I am in Saudi Arabia but the wife could ship it to you. I will have to see if I have any RCA output adapters for it, the wife will know where to look.LOL


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

UPDATE....Currently breaking in the "new" speakers of the group. I can already tell, this test is going to be VERY tough!

Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H (Automotive Version) - have
Dynaudio Esotar2 e650 - have
Hybrid L6SE - have
ScanSpeak Illuminator 7" Paper Cone Woofer 18WU/4741T-00 - have
PHASS MD0790 - have
Pioneer Stage4 - Erin Has
Exodus Anarchy - have
Vifa ne180W - have
Seas Excel - Erin Has
JBL 660GTi - Erin Has


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Is that Exodus Anarchy 4 OHM?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



adrenalinejunkie said:


> Is that Exodus Anarchy 4 OHM?


I believe so, I haven't used the DATS on them yet to get the t/s parameters.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I may be wrong, but for some reason I thought the Anarchy is an 8 ohm only driver. I think he was considering building 4 ohms but there wasn't enough interest.


----------



## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

What's the shallowest mounting depth of the group?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I dont have them all in my hands yet, so I couldn't tell ya.

Thanks for the correction on the impedance of the Exodus Erin.


----------



## Hanatsu

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Don't think there's a 4ohm version of the Anarchys, only 8ohm available in Europe at least.

Here's data taken from DATS on mine:










VAS is a little bit off. Should be a little bit lower and Mmd should be slightly higher... tricky to measure VAS correctly.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Got confused for a bit I was confusing it to the 8" 4 OHM version that was being talked about a while back. This should be intresting. How you going to manage power on drivers with different impedances?


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

18Sound will be the shallowest...around 2.75" deep.

Jerry send me your address so I can send them out.


----------



## ariko81

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

GREAT list of drivers!  can't wait for this.


----------



## ~Spyne~

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Agreed! That's a killer list and there's some there where I'm very interested to see/read results.


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> 18Sound will be the shallowest...around 2.75" deep.
> 
> Jerry send me your address so I can send them out.



Jerry, I know you said 10 drivers, but please make an exception for the 18 Sound.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



fish said:


> Jerry, I know you said 10 drivers, but please make an exception for the 18 Sound.


Second that... I so wanted the Focal driver to be tested but no luck. Please accept the 18Sound  

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I already sent my address where it can be mailed to.....but no more...lol!

18Sound is in the test (you all love me!!!)


----------



## jpswanberg

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Yes we do


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Is the Test still set up for September 8th?

Trying to plan ahead for my new install depending on what the outcome is, LOL! 

Thanks x3 for including the 18Sound driver.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Yep, September 8th is a go!


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Just a small correction, I believe the Dyn Esotar 650 is around 2.6" deep so it might be the shallowest of the group. Looking very forward to this, Jerry. Immediately following the 6.5" shootout should be a 8-9" shootout.


----------



## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> Immediately following the 6.5" shootout should be a 8-9" shootout.


Second that!!


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> Just a small correction, I believe the Dyn Esotar 650 is around 2.6" deep so it might be the shallowest of the group. Looking very forward to this, Jerry. Immediately following the 6.5" shootout should be a 8-9" shootout.


Totally 3rd that one! As a suggestion for this one (if it happens), also have maybe the winner of this shootout as a comparison to the 8-9inchers. That would be of utmost help to alot of the guys like me. I can't be alone in wondering what exactly the benefits would truly be from attempting to shoehorn a larger midbass into my doors or just going the easy way with a 6-7 inch.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

You guys are killing me..lol!


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> You guys are killing me..lol!


I'll give you a hand then. How about HAT L8v2, Scan Discovery 8, Morel Elate 9, Dynaudio MW182, Dynaudio mw172 (why not both), Seas Lotus Ref 8. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. That's my help:laugh: I know... let's get this one done before we start planning the next one


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Just FYI, the 18Sound is 2.5" deep when mounted from the front...just edging out the Dyn.


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



james2266 said:


> I'll give you a hand then. How about HAT L8v2, Scan Discovery 8, Morel Elate 9, Dynaudio MW182, Dynaudio mw172 (why not both), Seas Lotus Ref 8. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. That's my help:laugh: I know... let's get this one done before we start planning the next one


Hmmm
Sounds like I may be shipping again.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

just buy a large enough woofer that fits and provides the output needed and call it a day. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over a driver relegated to only 50-250hz. That's where t/s parameters come in to play (xmax, Q's, Fs, etc). Figure out the size enclsoure you need (or if it doesn't need one, then figure this out, too) and roll with it. 

The problem with drivers playing below the transition phase is almost exclusively relegated to enclosure and environment (modes/placement) rather than issues with the driver itself. If you don't put it in a box it shouldn't be in or push it to near death, then you likely can't have anything to blame on the driver itself; rather it's implementation and the user's choice in drivers. 
And, yes, "this 10 sounded so much better than the other 10 I used" can probably be traced back to how it was used and what it was put in.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> just buy a large enough woofer that fits and provides the output needed and call it a day. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over a driver relegated to only 50-250hz.  That's where t/s parameters come in to play (xmax, Q's, Fs, etc). Figure out the size enclsoure you need (or if it doesn't need one, then figure this out, too) and roll with it.
> 
> The problem with drivers playing below the transition phase is almost exclusively relegated to enclosure and environment (modes/placement) rather than issues with the driver itself. If you don't put it in a box it shouldn't be in or push it to near death, then you likely can't have anything to blame on the driver itself; rather it's implementation and the user's choice in drivers.
> And, yes, "this 10 sounded so much better than the other 10 I used" can probably be traced back to how it was used and what it was put in.


Thanks for chiming in Erin. The bit I have outlined in red is where I am having issues. There seems to be so much contradicting info in the net about the various ts parameters and how they apply to the driver's use; especially when it comes to if it is good for ib or not. Taking it a step further, not all doors are the same size by any means. I just found an equation for calculating box size via fs and vas too which was very enlightening if it was true. I was always under the impression that vas was close to what you needed for box size. Did I read it right that a driver with a low fs and a really high vas is a great driver for low end production (possibly midbass)? If true, it sure makes me like Scan midbass drivers alot more than before (and I already liked the idea). 

You also mentioned, 'Just buy a large enough driver that fits and provdides the output needed'. This is my whole reasoning behind wanting the winner from this shootout to be included in an 8+ inch midbass comparo (if there will be one) as I am sure I am not the only one that is curious just how much output you get from a larger driver over the more standard 6-7 inch drivers. Can a 6-7 inch driver with a ton of xmax and a super low fs have as much or more output than an 8 inch or larger driver? If this can never happen then should everyone just do whatever they can to get the absolute largest driver they can for midbass into their cars and call it a day?


----------



## ErinH

How do you calculate volume?

Think about thy answer vs your question about Xmax of a smaller driver vs a larger driver with less.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



james2266 said:


> Thanks for chiming in Erin. The bit I have outlined in red is where I am having issues. There seems to be so much contradicting info in the net about the various ts parameters and how they apply to the driver's use; especially when it comes to if it is good for ib or not. Taking it a step further, not all doors are the same size by any means. I just found an equation for calculating box size via fs and vas too which was very enlightening if it was true. I was always under the impression that vas was close to what you needed for box size. Did I read it right that a driver with a low fs and a really high vas is a great driver for low end production (possibly midbass)? If true, it sure makes me like Scan midbass drivers alot more than before (and I already liked the idea).
> 
> You also mentioned, 'Just buy a large enough driver that fits and provdides the output needed'. This is my whole reasoning behind wanting the winner from this shootout to be included in an 8+ inch midbass comparo (if there will be one) as I am sure I am not the only one that is curious just how much output you get from a larger driver over the more standard 6-7 inch drivers. Can a 6-7 inch driver with a ton of xmax and a super low fs have as much or more output than an 8 inch or larger driver? If this can never happen then should everyone just do whatever they can to get the absolute largest driver they can for midbass into their cars and call it a day?


You also have to think that at a certain point, output is moot. I mean, a larger midbass can get lower without having issues, but remember the driver overall still has to blend well with the midrange/tweeter. 

A test of the best 8+ inch midbass would be hard, because it depends on how you look at it. If you test output as a whole, I can be pretty certain the larger driver will win. If you test for how low it can play, I bet the larger driver will win. If you test how they sound when blended with the midrange/tweet....that would be a VERY challenging test to perform. Now you have to integrate 2 speakers, level match, decide which passband is fair, and.....ugh, I have a headache now...lol!


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> How do you calculate volume?
> 
> Think about thy answer vs your question about Xmax of a smaller driver vs a larger driver with less.


the formula I grabbed off the net last night (if I remember correctly) is:

x = (qtc/qts)^2 - 1
vb (optimum enclosure size) = vas / x

What I was also reading is that a perfect qtc of .7 isn't always the answer when you take cabin gain into effect which really changes the idea that a high qts is needed for ib too. I don't know if I am explaining what I read correctly as this was last night and I can't find the site I was reading today (of course). 

Anyways, maybe we should move this to a separate thread or maybe continue this in PM so not to through off the thread meaning here.

Oh, Danno you have a PM too.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I was mostly joking about doing the 8-9" test right after the current one. As much as I would like that, I don't want to kill Jerry. One test every couple years is nice. FWIW my 9s are playing 70-750hz at the moment. I believe they are easier to blend with the subs and I've noticed no downsides at all over the 6.5" they replaced. Excursion is significantly reduced and theres a more dynamic, live, more realistic sound now.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

18Sound in the mail. You can send them to Erin if he wants to test them, and have Erin send them back to me.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> 18Sound in the mail. You can send them to Erin if he wants to test them, and have Erin send them back to me.


Paypal addy  I'm so happy you sent them for the test 
I'll send you a few bucks for shipping cost. 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It's my first and last name @yahoo.com if you want to.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

They should have gotten there today or yesterday.


----------



## claytonzmvox

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

wanted to know about the speaker scanpseak 15WU/8741T00 am intending to form a set with all 3-way speakers illuminator. I could go for more information? what problem the speaker is 8 ohms? that would only apply more force? the remainder will be 4 ohms!!


need information, please guys!!


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, those speakers have zero play time on them. I don't know how or if they will change after being broken in. They'll want about .25-.5 cube ported to 60-65 ish for best low end from what I remember...couldn't remember if you were building enclosures for all of them or not. Sealed would be about the same size.


----------



## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I can't wait to see what all these Drivers can do!

I know the GTi's, and AT will very impressive as well as a few others.


----------



## claytonzmvox

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



DAT said:


> I can't wait to see what all these Drivers can do!
> 
> I know the GTi's, and AT will very impressive as well as a few others.



what do you think of scanspeak I quoted above?


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Really looking forward to this thing even though I no longer own any of the speakers being tested. I'll still probably do the 650 for a center one day.

In response to a couple of the earlier posts, my 182s are playing 70-750hz now. I'm shocked at how much I like them playing that range. I honestly thought they would only shine playing low, like 50hz but even at a 70hz highpass there's a difference. At that frequency, the 6.5" had what looked like 1" of excursion at full tilt while the 9" has maybe half of that, probably less than half the excursion.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> Jerry, those speakers have zero play time on them. I don't know how or if they will change after being broken in. They'll want about .25-.5 cube ported to 60-65 ish for best low end from what I remember...couldn't remember if you were building enclosures for all of them or not. Sealed would be about the same size.


I did get the 18 sound in. I haven't done anything with them yet, as I have been coordinating everything else. I plan on pulling them out and throwing the DATS on them later this week in preparation. 

Currently only missing the Pioneer Stage 4, which Erin has.


----------



## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Are there 2 speakers out of the set that you are particularly excited to compare to each other?


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

This isn't the thread for that question. I would advise you to start a new thread in regards to what you are asking.



claytonzmvox said:


> wanted to know about the speaker scanpseak 15WU/8741T00 am intending to form a set with all 3-way speakers illuminator. I could go for more information? what problem the speaker is 8 ohms? that would only apply more force? the remainder will be 4 ohms!!
> 
> 
> need information, please guys!!


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Woot woot we're in Sep.


----------



## dozy_production

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Do you guys need some usher 8945a's?


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



dozy_production said:


> Do you guys need some usher 8945a's?


Too late  

Kelvin


----------



## dozy_production

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

C'mon!


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^LOL.

I can sympathize with you as there are probably about 5 or 6 more drivers that I would "like" to see in this test, but I am absolutely thrilled at the list as it stands, and that there are actually 10 drivers already included! 

Any more than this is just too much to deal with at one time. I believe that sacrifices/shortcuts would be made just to accommodate additional drivers, and the results would not be as complete or would be diluted. Just my .02


----------



## dozy_production

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Fair enough. Testing my drivers could take as long as possible though because I don't think I have the funds to complete the project for right now anyways. Just being pesky.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^^sorry, no more drivers allowed.

Thanks anyway.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I thought I'd share some of the setup work that goes into a test like this. I know some of you know the amount of work, but I don't think everyone knows.

Yesterday I had to cut 22 trim rings for the 11 speakers. Not only did this consume a lot of 3/4" mdf, but also a lot of time. 










I also spent a couple hours at the studio we are using to figure out all the technical aspects of routing and crossing over the signal, figuring out what will and won't work.

I then spent a couple more hours finalizing the testers score sheets and trying to select music that I thought would work well for the test (each tester gets to pick a couple tracks they know really well). 

Today, I will be drilling all the rings to fit the speakers and mounting holes for the rings to the board. I will pick up the driverack and calculate level differences between the midwoofers and the tweeter so the day of the test, it is all pre-calculated.

I have a ton more stuff to do before Saturday.

BTW, thanks to all that have donated and anyone that want to donate for all the unseen expenses, my personal paypal is [email protected]


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

JBL and Seas are in hand! Only waiting on the Pioneer Stage4.


----------



## ~Spyne~

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Sooo keen for this test and the 'results'.

One question, and sorry if it has been mentioned, but what model 18sound driver is being used?


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

My 4 ohm 6ND430s...same model but different impedance as the ones Zaph has tested.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> JBL and Seas are in hand! Only waiting on the Pioneer Stage4.


you should have them tomorrow.

I didn't have time to test them until Monday and I knew that would be pushing it so I went ahead and sent them your way. Sucks, but such is life.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Looking forward to this. 

Jerry, I still need to send you a PayPal for return shipping of the Seas W18NX. Would you mind including the MDF trim rings you made for them? I'll add a few extra $!  Will send the PayPal soon.

Thanks for putting together this test!


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> Looking forward to this.
> 
> Jerry, I still need to send you a PayPal for return shipping of the Seas W18NX. Would you mind including the MDF trim rings you made for them? I'll add a few extra $!  Will send the PayPal soon.
> 
> Thanks for putting together this test!


Sure, no problem! Thanks!


ANYONE ELSE WANT TO PURCHASE THE TRIM RINGS FROM THE TEST?


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, would you send the 18Sound to Erin for KDA testing after you guys are finished with them?


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> Looking forward to this.
> 
> Jerry, I still need to send you a PayPal for return shipping of the Seas W18NX. *Would you mind including the MDF trim rings you made for them?* I'll add a few extra $!  Will send the PayPal soon.
> 
> Thanks for putting together this test!





Niebur3 said:


> Sure, no problem! Thanks!
> 
> ANYONE ELSE WANT TO PURCHASE THE TRIM RINGS FROM THE TEST?


 
PayPal Sent! Please ship with Insurance and Signature Confirmation! Thanks!


----------



## odj23

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I am about halfway through this youtube video and had to post it here, as it is very relevant.






One thing that they bring up at ~28mins is the need to have volume very close between various speakers when doing blind testing, as even slight increases in volume can give the impression of increases in clarity.

Anywho, I'm back to lurking, and very much looking forward to the results. Much respect to the whole crew involved!


----------



## odj23

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Damn embed didn't work. Here's the link:


----------



## denetnz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



odj23 said:


> even slight increases in volume can give the impression of increases in clarity.


This is *very* true - as little as 0.2 decibels difference will cause people to favour the louder option. I have personally witnessed this myself, whist running a blind amplifier test (McIntosh MC440 vs Alpine PDX-F6)


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> Jerry, would you send the 18Sound to Erin for KDA testing after you guys are finished with them?


Yep, will do. Was there an expanding foam explosion at your place? lol 



bbfoto said:


> PayPal Sent! Please ship with Insurance and Signature Confirmation! Thanks!


Will do, thanks!



odj23 said:


> I am about halfway through this youtube video and had to post it here, as it is very relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that they bring up at ~28mins is the need to have volume very close between various speakers when doing blind testing, as even slight increases in volume can give the impression of increases in clarity.
> 
> Anywho, I'm back to lurking, and very much looking forward to the results. Much respect to the whole crew involved!





denetnz said:


> This is *very* true - as little as 0.2 decibels difference will cause people to favour the louder option. I have personally witnessed this myself, whist running a blind amplifier test (McIntosh MC440 vs Alpine PDX-F6)


We are fully expecting to level match as close as humanly possible. Much easier to do with an amp vs speakers though. BTW, I would love to see anyone hear a .1dB or even a .2dB difference consistently (I could probably take that up to 1dB). Thanks for the post!


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Alright so I know this is super short notice...

I just realized that I have an old free flight award on Southwest that expires on Saturday 9/8. If anyone is able to travel on last minute notice and wants to fly to Omaha to participate in the shootout (either as a listener or to help setup/organize/etc -Jerry's preference), I will donate this ticket to the cause.

Stipulations... 
Free ticket only. Jerry has offerred to pick someone up at the airport, but he's put out enough of his own time & expense to set this up, so you're on your own for any other expenses (food, hotel, ground transportation, etc). 

The ticket expires on Saturday. If you want to fly back home on Sunday -that's on your dime. If you want to travel with a companion, you pay, I only have 1 ticket.

That's about it. If anyone is interested, pm me here or email me at [email protected]. Check your flight options to Omaha (OMA) and indicate your preferences. Hope we get someone from this forum who can participate!


----------



## SSSnake

Niebur3 said:


> Yep, will do. Was there an expanding foam explosion at your place? lol
> 
> 
> 
> Will do, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are fully expecting to level match as close as humanly possible. Much easier to do with an amp vs speakers though. BTW, I would love to see anyone hear a .1dB or even a .2dB difference consistently (I could probably take that up to 1dB). Thanks for the post!


That's really the point. While listeners will swear it is at the same volume level they hear some type of difference that gets attributed better quality. But as you have said you will be doing level matching as close as humanly possible ( presumably using measurement gear - SPL meter or RTA or the like) so this issue should be moot.


----------



## ErinH

ISTundra said:


> Alright so I know this is super short notice...
> 
> I just realized that I have an old free flight award on Southwest that expires on Saturday 9/8. If anyone is able to travel on last minute notice and wants to fly to Omaha to participate in the shootout (either as a listener or to help setup/organize/etc -Jerry's preference), I will donate this ticket to the cause.
> 
> Stipulations...
> Free ticket only. Jerry has offerred to pick someone up at the airport, but he's put out enough of his own time & expense to set this up, so you're on your own for any other expenses (food, hotel, ground transportation, etc).
> 
> The ticket expires on Saturday. If you want to fly back home on Sunday -that's on your dime. If you want to travel with a companion, you pay, I only have 1 ticket.
> 
> That's about it. If anyone is interested, pm me here or email me at [email protected]. Check your flight options to Omaha (OMA) and indicate your preferences. Hope we get someone from this forum who can participate!


Is this round trip for one day, then? Wasn't sure. You said return on Sunday would be our dime but wasn't sure if that meant Saturday return trip would work.


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

The ticket expires on Saturday, so if you can get a return flight out that day then you can use the full free RT award. If someone wanted to stay overnight and return on Sunday then they would need to spring for a one-way return ticket.


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Yeah had some foam leak on the back of one of them...but I was honest about it a few pages back. There is no foam on the cone, surround, or spider...so I wasn't worried about how it would sound.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> Yeah had some foam leak on the back of one of them...but I was honest about it a few pages back. There is no foam on the cone, surround, or spider...so I wasn't worried about how it would sound.


Yeah, I almost posted yesterday saying they wouldn't get tested. There is a tiny bit on the underneath side of the cone and spider and when using the DATS, I couldn't get them close for some reason (thought the foam was causing the issue). I tried it again (several hours later) and all of a sudden, they tested pretty darn close in parameters to each other. I think the program or my computer was wonky the first time.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



ISTundra said:


> Alright so I know this is super short notice...
> 
> I just realized that I have an old free flight award on Southwest that expires on Saturday 9/8. If anyone is able to travel on last minute notice and wants to fly to Omaha to participate in the shootout (either as a listener or to help setup/organize/etc -Jerry's preference), I will donate this ticket to the cause.
> 
> Stipulations...
> Free ticket only. Jerry has offerred to pick someone up at the airport, but he's put out enough of his own time & expense to set this up, so you're on your own for any other expenses (food, hotel, ground transportation, etc).
> 
> The ticket expires on Saturday. If you want to fly back home on Sunday -that's on your dime. If you want to travel with a companion, you pay, I only have 1 ticket.
> 
> That's about it. If anyone is interested, pm me here or email me at [email protected]. Check your flight options to Omaha (OMA) and indicate your preferences. Hope we get someone from this forum who can participate!


That is very generous of you. If anyone wants to take him up on the quick trip, let me know so I can pick you up.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If I weren't afraid of flying I would take him up on this in a heartbeat.... that, and the fact that I have to work this weekend That's a very generous offer.


----------



## subwoofery

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



SSSnake said:


> That's really the point. While listeners will swear it is at the same volume level they hear some type of difference that gets attributed better quality. But as you have said you will be doing level matching as close as humanly possible ( presumably using measurement gear - SPL meter or RTA or the like) so this issue should be moot.


Just wondering how you would level match the mid in that case? 
Some drivers are probably close to flat while others might have a few dips or peaks here and there - so what would be your set level? 

I assume the test is conducted with no EQ @ all - maybe I'm wrong 

Kelvin


----------



## Scott Buwalda

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Suggest setting to 90 dB reference level using full bandwidth pink noise and precise SPL meter.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Should be happening right now or soon. I can't wait to see what each person has to say and which driver comes out on top. And I am probably going with an 8 inch driver:laugh:


----------



## cvjoint

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Are the test subjects going to review the same speaker multiple times? 

The reason why I ask is that a measure of variance can be derived which would lend credibility to the final list. Point estimates (here: #1 speaker, #2 speaker and so on) are generally of use in research only if standard errors (or a measure of the tester's accuracy) is provided with it. Microphones are calibrated to a reference, or at least repeatability can be ensured through testing. Here the tool is the ear, but it has a variance nonetheless. 

Multiple listener-speaker observations would then allow testing of hearing ability, increase sample size, provide a measure of variance, and with some more advanced statistics variance measures can be adjusted for clustering (where variance is adjusted to make up for the fact that several speaker scores came from the same person, and variance is adjusted *up* to make up for it).


----------



## Stage7

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Sure, no problem! Thanks!
> 
> 
> ANYONE ELSE WANT TO PURCHASE THE TRIM RINGS FROM THE TEST?


I'll take the trim ring for the JBL 660gti. I'll pm you to get Paypal info.

I'm looking forward to the results.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



james2266 said:


> Should be happening right now or soon. I can't wait to see what each person has to say and which driver comes out on top. *And I am probably going with an 8 inch driver*:laugh:


You won't regret it.:laugh: I went from a very high end 6.5" to a slightly lower end 9" and haven't regretted it for a second.

I can't wait to see the results. I'm naturally going for the Dyn 650 since that's the best 6.5" I've ever owned. Unfortunately I'm sure it will take days if not weeks to publish the data. I'll just keep this screen up on it's own window and refresh every 5 minutes for the next few days.


----------



## DAT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> You won't regret it.:laugh: I went from a very high end 6.5" to a slightly lower end 9" and haven't regretted it for a second.
> 
> I can't wait to see the results. I'm naturally going for the Dyn 650 since that's the best 6.5" I've ever owned. Unfortunately I'm sure it will take days if not weeks to publish the data. I'll just keep this screen up on it's own window and refresh every 5 minutes for the next few days.


I'm sure... 

I'm betting the AT and JBL GTi kick ass....


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm betting Dyn and the Scans will be towards the top.


----------



## Stage7

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BuickGN said:


> I'm betting Dyn and the Scans will be towards the top.


My bet is on the 660gti and Esotar 650.

I have them both, so I'm a bit biased.


----------



## BrianAbington

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'll wait for Jerry to post the results before I post my thoughts on the listening test. 

I had suggested we listen at 135db  but we didn't want to be sleepy by the end of the first round so I think we went with 90 or so. 


Some really good ones and some major turds too.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BrianAbington said:


> I'll wait for Jerry to post the results before I post my thoughts on the listening test.
> 
> I had suggested we listen at 135db  but we didn't want to be sleepy by the end of the first round so I think we went with 90 or so.
> 
> 
> Some really good ones and some major turds too.



Wow, I'm really surprised by the last part that I highlighted in red. With these drivers I would of thought there would be no turds. I guess that is the benefit of having a test such as this from time to time. I take it the listening test is now finished. I really look forward to the thoughts posted even if we don't get a defined winner announced yet.


----------



## robert_wrath

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Anyone wanna play a small PayPal Pool on the Top 3 drivers tested?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



robert_wrath said:


> Anyone wanna play a small PayPal Pool on the Top 3 drivers tested?


Can I play?


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BrianAbington said:


> I'll wait for Jerry to post the results before I post my thoughts on the listening test.


Appreciate that. It may take a little while to get the write up done.


----------



## oilman

I'm in, lay it out.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



robert_wrath said:


> Anyone wanna play a small PayPal Pool on the Top 3 drivers tested?


Ive got $5 that the Esotar is in the top 3.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Appreciate that. It may take a little while to get the write up done.


I anxiously await this but I do appreciate all of the hard work and the time involved in doing such a test and writeup. Thanks to everyone, especially Jerry, for getting this all setup.


----------



## oilman

I've got $20 on the AT's in the top three


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



cvjoint said:


> Are the test subjects going to review the same speaker multiple times?
> 
> The reason why I ask is that a measure of variance can be derived which would lend credibility to the final list. Point estimates (here: #1 speaker, #2 speaker and so on) are generally of use in research only if standard errors (or a measure of the tester's accuracy) is provided with it. Microphones are calibrated to a reference, or at least repeatability can be ensured through testing. Here the tool is the ear, but it has a variance nonetheless.
> 
> Multiple listener-speaker observations would then allow testing of hearing ability, increase sample size, provide a measure of variance, and with some more advanced statistics variance measures can be adjusted for clustering (where variance is adjusted to make up for the fact that several speaker scores came from the same person, and variance is adjusted *up* to make up for it).


We had every plans to run them through multiple times. However, listening fatigue set in after the 5th hour and it didn't happen. We did throw a control in (same driver 2 times) and it scored identically points wise both times, and there were a few hours in between.


----------



## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> We had every plans to run them through multiple times. However, listening fatigue set in after the 5th hour and it didn't happen. We did throw a control in (same driver 2 times) and it scored identically points wise both times, and there were a few hours in between.


Great idea. It's very hard to repeat tests mutiple times unless you have several days. You've added very strong credibility to your test, and the Judge's ears.


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Any pictures made during the test? That studio is awesome...


----------



## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If Zaph is correct, the 18Sound should be near the top.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Wesayso said:


> Any pictures made during the test? That studio is awesome...


Yep, we took some pics of the setup in the studio before we started. And yes, it is awesome!


----------



## cvjoint

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



thehatedguy said:


> If Zaph is correct, the 18Sound should be near the top.


I don't think so. This closely resembles an out of the box test, the drivers are not on an equal footing linear distortion wise. Pro-audio drivers have a backwards tilt on the bottom end out of the box, especially compared to the Nextel, NE, and Illuminator. People like bass so my guess is low FS, low QTS drivers will dominate in the challenge. That is of course, unless that backwards tilt somehow comes off as extra detail on the top for some listeners. I find that less likely. 

Looking forward to the results, seems like people put lots of effort into this. :rockon:


----------



## claytonzmvox

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm watching the news here in Brazil, congratulations to all involved in the test!!


----------



## InjunV18

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Looking forward to the results... chipping in a little for the effort and time put into this. Thanks to all the members that donated their drivers. It's a great community... the only problem is you all make me spend more money most of the time

Thanks Jerry, Erin and all involved.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Erin - Which drivers did you want me to send you for klippel testing afterward? I know the 18 sound are supposed to be sent your way (and maybe others if I look through posts/pm's). 

Everyone who sent in drivers - who wants me to send your drivers to Erin first for Klippel testing before having them returned to you? Obviously the Seas and JBL were just done. Anyone else????!?????


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I give the blessing for mine and I believe he wants them. Unless of course they tested at the bottom of the heap, in which case the trash can is probably a better place for them


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Erin - Which drivers did you want me to send you for klippel testing afterward? I know the 18 sound are supposed to be sent your way (and maybe others if I look through posts/pm's).
> 
> Everyone who sent in drivers - who wants me to send your drivers to Erin first for Klippel testing before having them returned to you? Obviously the Seas and JBL were just done. Anyone else????!?????


Send my drivers back to me please. I sent the Stage 4's to Erin for testing before the shootout and I know he's tested the Illum's before. Shoot me a pm when they're ready to and I'll forward my address and some shipping $$$.


----------



## ErinH

^ yea. I wasnt able to get to them in time and had to send them on to Jerry. 

Testing stuff isn't as time permissive as I wish it were. On top of all that, my PC died via a lightning storm and it'll be sometime before I'm able to get up and running again. I just hope the HDD made it.


----------



## highly

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Vifa NE's come back to me. They've been tested, posted, discussed and recommended  

Honestly should have had each person to touch them sign the cones. Since I've owned them they've spent more time away in the hands of others than at home with me! Those hussies...


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> ^ yea. I wasnt able to get to them in time and had to send them on to Jerry.
> 
> Testing stuff isn't as time permissive as I wish it were. On top of all that, my PC died via a lightning storm and it'll be sometime before I'm able to get up and running again. I just hope the HDD made it.


Oh, thought you tested them. You want them back?


----------



## nar93da

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I think the Anarchy's have been tested already so I'll take them back I suppose. Unless Erin says otherwise? 

Jerry, I'll get you some money here shortly for return shipping.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^^^Thanks! Appreciate it!


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm willing to test whatever you guys want to send my way but please understand that right now I have no means of testing and I probably won't be testing anything until mid-October... at the earliest. We've (my family and my job) have a lot going on the next month and a half and I don't want to tie myself down to a deadline because I know you guys would be waiting on me. 

That said, if you're OK with that, then bring it on!


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm rollin' without midbass in one of my cars at the moment so I'll take mine back now and can send back them out down the road when you're in test mode again.


----------



## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That sounds great, man. I appreciate the offer.

I wanted to test as many as I could but the stars just aren't lining up right now. Things got busy way fast here.


----------



## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Can these threads be stickied at the top of the page?


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



BlackCSVT said:


> Can these threads be stickied at the top of the page?


Optionally, you can click on "My Threads" when you are logged in and it will show all of the threads you are active in, or use the "Thread Tools" link to "Subscribe" to any thread you want, whether you have posted in it or not.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

All Speakers/Equipment are on the way to their respective owners! Thanks again for the use and hope all arrive safe and sound! (only took me about 6 hours to pack and ship everything...lol)


----------



## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> Optionally, you can click on "My Threads" when you are logged in and it will show all of the threads you are active in, or use the "Thread Tools" link to "Subscribe" to any thread you want, whether you have posted in it or not.


This wasn't for me, as I already have this thread subscribed. I was thinking more about the people trying to search for this information in the future.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

If they want good sound, they'll run into it eventually.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Update.....I've sent 5 days typing the report, pretty much finished and then Word hung up and a glitch caused all of the writing in certain text boxes to disappear. You can still see the text when you look to open recent documents, but not when the document actually opens. I was on with tech support at Microsoft for almost 3 hours, hoping they could somehow access one of the million saves I did, but they can't. I now get to start over from scratch.


----------



## jpswanberg

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

That really sucks. I appreciate all of your hard work with testing all the speakers. While we are all waiting anxiously for your listening notes, we all understand how fickle computers are. JPS


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I going to go throw up and then slit my wrists....taking the results to the grave.


----------



## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



jpswanberg said:


> That really sucks. I appreciate all of your hard work with testing all the speakers. While we are all waiting anxiously for your listening notes, we all understand how fickle computers are. JPS



Um, yeah, what he said. Seriously tho, that really blows and I hope you can find a way to not have to start over from scratch at least.

If you could give us all some kind of hint as to who did well that would probably appease the masses a little too. I am very interested in your opinion of which of these drivers would be best in a strict midbass application myself. Seems I am going to have to do something sooner than I anticipated here as it looks like my driver's side has some serious issues. I was doing some tuning and could absolutely not get them to center up at all. I tested with TruRTA today and found that the driver's midbass is 5 db lower output than the passenger now. Somedays, I really hate car audio as a hobby. I was so ticked I didn't look any further. When I get time, I will check the connections at the speakers. Hopefully that is all it is.


----------



## Bluenote

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

LOL hella funny!!! MS Word has an app called GraveWare...you can do updates on files from the NetherWorld.


----------



## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

totally sucks balls...but don't slit your wrists, who am I going to beat in fantasy football?


----------



## fish

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

****ing computers!!! 

Sorry to hear this Jerry. Everything you're doing is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

What sucks the worst, is when Word shows a preview of the document, all the writing is there.....but when I open it, it is blank! It is f*king taunting me!


----------



## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

there HAS to be a way to get at it. there has to be a computer genius in omaha somewhere that can help.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Gotta' love Microsoft. Maybe you can try calling Microsoft again and hope to get a different tech. (I'm sure you will techs are everywhere.) Some techs know more then others so maybe it's worth to do another attempt, you don't have an easy task.


----------



## SkizeR

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> What sucks the worst, is when Word shows a preview of the document, all the writing is there.....but when I open it, it is blank! It is f*king taunting me!


take a close up, high-res photo... scan.. paste? would that work or is the image to small


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, can't you just do a screen capture or "print screen"? You'll still have to re-type it but at least you won't have to rewrite it! If you've got a scanner with OCR (almost all of them come with it, or you can download it from the Mfg's web site) you can print out your screen captures and then scan them with OCR on and save to MS Word format. Also, in MS Word, did you try the different viewing modes, such as "Outline, Web View, Page Layout," etc?

Also try to re-save (and rename) your existing file in the "plain text" (.txt) or "rich-text" (.rtf) file format (.rtf), then close Word and try to open the "plain text" or "rich text" file with Word or just the "Note Pad" program that's in the "start" menu, inside the "Accessories" folder (assuming you are running Windows). You will lose all of your MS Word "formatting", but all of the actual text should be there. You could also try emailing the file to someone else to see if they can open/view it on a different computer.

If you have an Android camera phone, check out the ScanThing OCR and Mobile OCR apps. There's got to be a similar app for iPhones/iOS as well.

Thanks too for getting my Seas shipped out. My FedEx driver called me today when he tried to deliver them, but I'm out of town until Friday. But he said he would bring them back out to me Friday.


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Thanks for the help guys. I could only see page one and using double magnifying glasses, I was able to at least get that info back. I am now back to where I was Monday at about 5pm, so hopefully just a few more days.

FWIW, I was on the phone with Microsoft for over 2 hours Monday and at the Apple Store yesterday for over an hour. The fact that there is a thumbnail that shows text makes everyone think it may be recoverable, but it just wasn't. Tried everything, even calling 3 different places that specialize in data recovery (one quoted me $550). 

Thanks for being patient. This is going to be the best one yet and my goal is to blow everyones socks off.


----------



## ISTundra

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

got my drivers back yesterday, thx


----------



## pionkej

Sorry about the setback Jerry. I'm glad you were able to recover at least some of it. 

Got my package yesterday too! Actually was here Saturday but nobody was home to sign for it. Going back in the car today for MECA TN Finals on Sunday!


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Mine have Arrived. Funny, never seen 'em till now!


----------



## req

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I feel for you man, there were many of times when I was doing 3d mapping or whatnot programs would crash all the time, but the thing that caused the crash would get saved into the file and it would be useless  I feel your pain dude. I I look forward to your report!


----------



## aj1735

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I can't wait to read the results.


----------



## ariko81

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

No doubt going to be interesting to see what came of the test. Can't wait


----------



## SkizeR

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

when will the report be finished?!?


----------



## Hanatsu

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It'll most likely be worth the wait, pretty unique test


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Still working on it. Hoping to have it finished by the end of this week.


----------



## olu78

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

To all involved, I truly appreciate the service you are providing. It is definitely easy to understate the level of cost, effort and time sacrificed, on behalf of the community. With that said, I must admit how this circumstance reminds me of the recent London Olympic coverage. However, I can't Google the latest results and updates, as we aren't constrained by time delays, only the lack of time. Until the wait is over, we wait........


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



olu78 said:


> To all involved, I truly appreciate the service you are providing. It is definitely easy to understate the level of cost, effort and time sacrificed, on behalf of the community. With that said, I must admit how this circumstance reminds me of the recent London Olympic coverage. However, I can't Google the latest results and updates, as we aren't constrained by time delays, only the lack of time. Until the wait is over, we wait........


On this note, it will be 2 more weeks....lol j/k....or am I???


----------



## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It's not very nice to tease Jerry


----------



## claytonzmvox

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I bet all my chips in .....is allowed opine?


----------



## tnbubba

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

eh??


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Jerry, just want to let you know that I finally received my Seas drivers back safely (I've been out of town on business so the FedEx driver held them for me until I got back). 

They look fine, but who swiped all of the little plastic "golf Tee" frame risers that keep the rubber surrounds from getting flattened when they rest flat against the OEM boxes during storage or shipment?  Not a big deal as they seem fine, but I would have liked them shipped back the way I sent them to Erin.  And thanks again for the MDF speaker rings...nice job!

Looking forward to your massive report to see just how low my babies ranked, LOL!


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

DOH! Double post from my not so smart "smartphone".


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Are we still making paypal bets? Might as well pass the time doing something fun.


----------



## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> Jerry, just want to let you know that I finally received my Seas drivers back safely (I've been out of town on business so the FedEx driver held them for me until I got back).
> 
> They look fine, but who swiped all of the little plastic "golf Tee" frame risers that keep the rubber surrounds from getting flattened when they rest flat against the OEM boxes during storage or shipment?  Not a big deal as they seem fine, but I would have liked them shipped back the way I sent them.  And thanks again for the MDF speaker rings...nice job!
> 
> Looking forward to your massive report to see just how low my babies ranked, LOL!


Im sure he can send you $5 for your plastic golf tee's. 

Im in for a paypal bet, what's the anny?


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



kizz said:


> Im sure he can send you $5 for your plastic golf tee's.


LOL, it's not about $5 plastic golf tees, it's about protecting a roughly $500 investment I have in these drivers, including the 3-way shipping cost invested to provide these drivers for the test for everyone's benefit (yes, including my own selfish benefit). I didn't want to come off as a whiney beyotch (I am), but I'm sure that you and anyone else here would not want to risk any damage to your own set of drivers, no matter what amount of investment you may have in them.

Again, the drivers seem fine and were otherwise well-packed, so no harm done, but SEAS does include those little plastic riser plugs with all of their OE driver packaging for a reason. 

I realize that they are just tiny pieces of plastic, are easy to lose track of, and seem insignificant. But I'm sure Jerry, Erin, or anyone might have similar feelings if I sent back their BNIB pair of Phass or Illuminator mids that were loaned to me for testing, and I didn't include the OEM protective packaging. I realize that there were many involved and they could have been easily misplaced anywhere along the way. Jus' sayin'. 

Sorry I'm making such a big deal about it.  I imagine that it's not easy keeping track of 22 drivers! I really do appreciate everyone's hard work involved in putting this together, and thanks heaps to everyone else who provided drivers for this shootout!

/whiney beyotch rant


----------



## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Well knowing Jerry I'm sure he took every precaution to make sure your drivers were packaged safe and sound. He understands the investment part I can guarantee that. And thank you for sending your drivers to be tested. We all appreciate it and look forward to how they did in the test.


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I highly doubt they were lost by Jerry..... I totally understand your point.


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^Thanks guys.

And, Jerry, I LOVE U, MAN! Don't take it personally, I'm just an anal m-f'er and very upfront/frank/"to the point" about everything...it's the Australian in me, LOL. It's entirely possible that you never even received these little bits as the Seas drivers were shipped to you directly from Erin I think.

I'd join the fun with the betting, but it's a complete crap shoot, LOL! I guess that's the fun of it though, eh?!


----------



## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Im putting $300 on lightning audio. Those were tested right?


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^Where do I sign up?!


----------



## danno14

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



kizz said:


> Im putting $300 on lightning audio. Those were tested right?


I'll take that bet


----------



## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bbfoto said:


> Jerry, just want to let you know that I finally received my Seas drivers back safely (I've been out of town on business so the FedEx driver held them for me until I got back).
> 
> They look fine, but who swiped all of the little plastic "golf Tee" frame risers that keep the rubber surrounds from getting flattened when they rest flat against the OEM boxes during storage or shipment?  Not a big deal as they seem fine, but I would have liked them shipped back the way I sent them to Erin.  And thanks again for the MDF speaker rings...nice job!
> 
> Looking forward to your massive report to see just how low my babies ranked, LOL!


I honestly don't remember seeing those little white gold tees. I know the Vifa drivers I had had some and I didn't have any left over. I am glad they made it back okay and tried to make sure all packaging was sound for all the drivers.....even repackaging some of them. No worries here....sorry they got lost though!



BuickGN said:


> Are we still making paypal bets? Might as well pass the time doing something fun.


I still want to know if I can get in on the bets?


----------



## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> I honestly don't remember seeing those little white gold tees. I know the Vifa drivers I had had some and I didn't have any left over. I am glad they made it back okay and tried to make sure all packaging was sound for all the drivers.....even repackaging some of them. No worries here....sorry they got lost though!
> 
> 
> 
> I still want to know if I can get in on the bets?


Lol! If the 650 doesn't make the top 3 you lose. If it does make the top 3, I win. I'm betting a brand new pair of Esotar 110s.:laugh:


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## kizz

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

NO Jerry.....no


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## Rupinder

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

jerry man the end of the week is upon us .can we have the results now.

p.s i was never so anxious to see my results as i am for these


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## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

These results are worth waiting for.


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## ErinH

BuickGN said:


> I highly doubt they were lost by Jerry..... I totally understand your point.



Yea. And I just throw drivers in a box when I ship them.... 

FWIW, only one of his Seas drivers were removed from the box when i got them. The other never saw the light of day when it was at my house. 

**** happens. But I can say unequivocally that it didn't happen while in my possession. Not unless the owner received one with tees and the other without. 



I keep a stash of these things (you can buy them from madisound) for those that don't send them to me like this. I won't ship a drier without them unless the OEM packaging doesn't call for it (ie: scan illuminator) or I can fid a grille (jbl's had them) or I make rings for them. I've had issues with surrounds being damaged otherwise and learned my lesson a while ago when I first started klippel testing.

I wasn't going to reply because I didn't think it was a big deal but my reputation is something I hold in high regard and I don't really care for the implication that I'm the culprit here. If it were my fault I would have admitted it but I know for a fact that if they showed up with the tees, they left my house with them as well. And the fact that I didn't even open the box for the other one speaks to that. 

Now, it's my turn to chill out over some $5 tees.


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## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



bikinpunk said:


> Yea. And I just throw drivers in a box when I ship them....
> 
> FWIW, only one of his Seas drivers were removed from the box when i got them. The other never saw the light of day when it was at my house.
> 
> **** happens. But I can say unequivocally that it didn't happen while in my possession. Not unless the owner received one with tees and the other without.
> 
> 
> 
> I keep a stash of these things (you can buy them from madisound) for those that don't send them to me like this. I won't ship a drier without them unless the OEM packaging doesn't call for it (ie: scan illuminator) or I can fid a grille (jbl's had them) or I make rings for them. I've had issues with surrounds being damaged otherwise and learned my lesson a while ago when I first started klippel testing.
> 
> I wasn't going to reply because I didn't think it was a big deal but my reputation is something I hold in high regard and I don't really care for the implication that I'm the culprit here. If it were my fault I would have admitted it but I know for a fact that if they showed up with the tees, they left my house with them as well. And the fact that I didn't even open the box for the other one speaks to that.
> 
> Now, it's my turn to chill out over some $5 tees.


I was speaking on my experiences. Jerry has always over-packaged everything I've received from him and I've dealt with him quite a bit. I'm sure I'm not going to get anywhere arguing with two moderators in one week so let's leave it at that.


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## ErinH

What's there to argue? Jerry packs well. I shipped the drivers with tees. 

Nevermind me being a moderator. I'm a guy who appreciates not having his rep called in to question. I'd rather someone ask than make such an assumption. I'm sure you'd feel the same. I came in to this thread and saw the implication from not just you but others as well and it caught me by surprise. I just didn't appreciate it. I'm not sure who would.

I'll leave it at that. Next time someone wants to imply something at least consider the person you're talking against and give them a chance to speak on it rather than blindly blame them. It's only a few standoffs, sure. But I still don't appreciate it.


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## Shadowmarx

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Delete Subscription...


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## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I'm trying to take the high road here. You do the community a huge service but you have to remember what I'm talking about. It's applicable here.


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## ErinH

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Shadowmarx said:


> Delete Subscription...


Agreed and understood.


Back OT.

I'm looking forward to the results, Jerry. I'll keep texting you daily for inside information that I can sell on ebay. 
Side note: If you need any help or want to host it on my site, let me know and I'll try to work that out. Would be nice to do that and have data from the driver's linked all in one place. 


Winslow, I got your drivers from Jerry but have yet to even unbox them. My test PC is in the hands of a friend/forum member getting repaired from a power surge and he's working to extract all the previous data I had saved on it. I'll likely not get to testing your 18sounds until the end of this month at the earliest, as stated previously. If this is an issue, let me know. I know you just had a baby so I doubt you're in a hurry to get back in to car audio right now.


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## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

It's cool...if something changes and I need them back, I will let you know. My daughter does keep asking why she can't listen to her CDs when she rides in the car, but is bound to help me "mend" the radio.

Gotta get a processor first before any listening is going on.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Update....I'm really trying here to get this done. It is soooooo close. Both myself and my wife have been sick with a nasty flu like virus. My wife for the past 2 weeks and myself the past week.....fever and all. My daughter started getting it, but I think it passed over my son. Doctors can only do so much with a virus, went there on Friday and did get some stuff to help, but it will just have to take its course. My voice was completely gone today. 

So, please bear with me. I think when you see it you will understand the time it took. I am really hoping that by Monday or Tuesday (maybe earlier) it will be done. Again, sorry for the delay, but my wife is a teacher and kids are in school....**** comes home.


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## james2266

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> Update....I'm really trying here to get this done. It is soooooo close. Both myself and my wife have been sick with a nasty flu like virus. My wife for the past 2 weeks and myself the past week.....fever and all. My daughter started getting it, but I think it passed over my son. Doctors can only do so much with a virus, went there on Friday and did get some stuff to help, but it will just have to take its course. My voice was completely gone today.
> 
> So, please bear with me. I think when you see it you will understand the time it took. I am really hoping that by Monday or Tuesday (maybe earlier) it will be done. Again, sorry for the delay, but my wife is a teacher and kids are in school....**** comes home.


Man, sorry to hear that. I sure hope you and your family get better soon. Your health should be your focus here not this. As much as I want to see the results, don't make yourself worse to get it done faster. We can wait even if some of us don't seem like we can


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## ariko81

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

^Don't listen to this. We NEED the results. Health clearly takes a backseat here. 

Just kidding, of course. Get some rest, man. We appreciate the efforts you're making. Go easy...it's done when it's done.


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## SkizeR

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

can.. not.. waiiitttttttttttt :shout: ahhhhh


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## StylinLP38

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Yes, this review will be critical to my choice for a new system in my new 2013 Subaru Forester. Shouldn't these speakers come with recommended amps too?


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## postman18ny

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

First ill start by saying thanks for all that you have done for this forum and the reports you have given us in the past. I just want to remind you that a lot of us are anxiously waiting for this report to be posted and its past the deadline you gave us.


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## highly

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



postman18ny said:


> First ill start by saying thanks for all that you have done for this forum and the reports you have given us in the past. I just want to remind you that a lot of us are anxiously waiting for this report to be posted and its past the deadline you gave us.


Maybe he'll offer a refund?
Seriously, we aren't 'there yet'. When we're there, he'll let us know. Relax.


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## BuickGN

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



postman18ny said:


> First ill start by saying thanks for all that you have done for this forum and the reports you have given us in the past. I just want to remind you that a lot of us are anxiously waiting for this report to be posted and its past the deadline you gave us.


Wow.


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## thehatedguy

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Chill out. Man and his family have been sick. Just be happy it got done and they are being being shared with everyone.

I know you are excited and anxious, but they will be posted. I am curious too since a pair of my personal speakers were in the fight.


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## leogun

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Wowww take it easy dude


----------



## audioanarchist

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



postman18ny said:


> I just want to remind you that a lot of us are anxiously waiting for this report to be posted and its past the deadline you gave us.


lol, :laugh:


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## adrenalinejunkie

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Working under pressure blows, give 'em a break.


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## alligatorman

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

*turning up the pressure*

Hope you and your family feel better soon...although I'm glad I didn't read all 23 pages to find out it hasn't been done yet lol...


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## leogun

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

i demand a hefty compensation !!!
due to inability to work properly
i've been checking this threads hundreds of times in the last two days
It's all jerry's faults, because he can not fulfill the dateline as promised :laugh:


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## clix`g35

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

I have been watching this since the thread started, and I have a set of JBL 660GTI's and cant wait to see how they stack up to the scans, dyns and Audio techs.

I know that several others here are waiting on this to see how the klippel measurements we have all spent hours looking at and trying to understand stack up against this review. 

None of the people who are usually involved in all the speaker discussions are complaining about how long the review has taken, even though they are anticipating this harder then anyone.

I know there are a few complainers who will base their near future purchase on this review and you want to buy already. Head over to the klippel section and read about the drivers over there until this is released. That should keep you all entertained and from complaining. 

Let the man and his family rest off the flu, car audio will still be here when he gets better and stop leaving ungrateful messages suggesting they are failing to meet deadlines or keep the audience entertained.


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Thanks for being patient everyone. I didn't plan on getting sick and it pushes everything in life back, especially something like this. I am STILL trying to recover (this thing is not going down without a fight), but still working at least 1-2 hours a day on this write-up. Believe me, I want this finished more than anyone on here....lol!


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## jpswanberg

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Many thanks Jerry. Get well first. While we are all waiting patiently (or impatiently as the case may be), you and your families health comes first. John


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## BlackCSVT

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

No to be greedy, but could you include a quick blurb about how all these high end drivers compare to the "everyday" ones you've heard/used so we have a reference to the lower end range??


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## oemplusmore

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Stop rushing him...he volunteered his own time and money to do this comparison. The wait will be woth it. If you can't wait or are oppsed to spending your own money for fear of trial and error as most of us do in this hobby, tough [email protected] 
Thanks Jerry, for being such a committed car audio enthusiast. The midrange test was awesome, can't wait to see how you did this one.


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## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Could this be the day... :surprised:

Can hardly wait... you sure know how to build up the suspense... even if it is without trying .


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## Niebur3

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

RESULTS ARE UP!!!!!

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-listening-test-**results-**.html#post1731357


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## SkizeR

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



Niebur3 said:


> RESULTS ARE UP!!!!!
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-listening-test-**results-**.html#post1731357


PRAISE THE LORDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!


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## oilman

Oops


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## oilman

Lol, I was texting that to southsyde. Lol didn't mean to post it. My text screen and reply screen look the same. Lol


----------



## Wesayso

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*



oilman said:


> Lol, I was texting that to southsyde. Lol didn't mean to post it. My text screen and reply screen look the same. Lol


We got it though .


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## oilman

I know, I know, I'm a dumbass. I needed a good laugh. Of course he's reply was how did the dyns do?


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## lizardking

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

So the Dyn's win the midrange and now the woofer test. I love my Dyns!!!


----------



## SkizeR

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

Cant wait to run my scan speak/anarchy 3 way set up


----------



## bbfoto

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

(Duplicate post at the new "Results" thread.)

Jerry,

I hope that you and your family are feeling better. And I want to congratulate you for producing an excellent...no, OUTSTANDING write up.  It is very well-written and organized, and both the subjective impressions and the data were presented in a very clear, easy-to-read, informative format...love the inclusion of the bar graphs! I know that you needed to keep the subjective impressions short and sweet, but I wish that there would have been a bit more descriptive analysis for some of the drivers (gotta complain about something!). 

I apologize to everyone here if in fact the Seas drivers were defective in any way. I had a suspicion that something might have been "off" after seeing Erin's Klippel results. I would have expected slightly better results after knowing how Zaph rated them and many others' impressions. Regardless, I doubt it would have changed the results more than a single tier in their performance rating, and I am very appreciative for having them included in the test for comparison. You have to have something bad to compare the good to. 

I would be happy to "like" your Facebook page, however I am not a member and do not plan on signing up due to their privacy and content/copyright policies (I am a professional photographer). So consider one more "like" even if it's off the record. 

I may be missing it because I am not a Facebook member and not able to sign into the site, but my only major dissapointment in the article is that nowhere did I see a reference or even mention of the DIYMA community forums and/or that this test was for the most part organized, and contributed to, by its members. In addition, nowhere did I see a link or reference to Erin's site, contributions, and/or his work regarding the Klippel tests and results.

Otherwise I am extremely pleased by the quality and caliber of the actual testing and your write-up.  THANK YOU to all who contributed their drivers, time, and money to make this test a reality! 

Well done!



P.S. Anyone wanna buy a pair of Awesome _looking_ Seas W18NX?!


----------



## ariko81

*re: 6-7" Midrange/Midbass Subjective Listening Shootout - Dyn/HAT/Scan/AT/Focal*

GREAT write-up. Thanks for the time it took to do this, Jerry. Really well done!  

p.s. feel better!


----------



## diggidyd

I'm kinda surprised more people haven't replied since you posted results. Awesome job. You are a true "truth-seeker" when it comes to audio. If only companies themselves were so transparent.


----------



## Golden Ear

Lots of replies on the thread with the results


----------



## Golotripa

So, Hertz MLK2TW not worthy of the list? 

I was deciding between this and Esotar


----------



## rxonmymind

Excellent review Jerry. Thank you. Amazed at the level of participation of the diy community. Good stuff.


----------



## sirbOOm

So what's weird is that my experience with the Pioneer Stage 4 driver has been notably different that this review. 



> Pioneer TS-C172PRS
> Pioneer has long history of leadership in producing reference level mobile audio products. These mid-woofers are part of Pioneer’s newest Stage 4
> reference level component set, which consists of mid-woofers, tweeters, and crossovers. Pioneer also offers a full electronic compliment (source unit
> and amplifier) as part of Stage 4. We are also very curious about their amplifiers [hmmm … future test? hint, hint].
> The Pioneer TS-C172PRS mid-woofers sounded really nice overall with a pleasant balance throughout all frequencies. The lower bass capability
> was, like the Hybrids, lacking in the lower registers. The drivers did not have much low-frequency extension, and did get a little muddy down low,
> causing separation to suffer. The Pioneer’s midrange frequencies were also good, having wonderful detail in the upper frequencies. The Pioneer’s had
> threw a precise and reasonably large sound stage, with very good width, height, and width. These mid-woofers also scored well in the category of
> tonality. All testers were generally positive toward the Pioneer’s performance but they did fall short in bottom end resolution - clearly earning them a Tier
> 2 slot. Overall, another good sounding mid-woofer that just didn’t seem to extend very low and did not possess capabilities characteristic of the Tier 1
> drivers.


Perhaps it is because I have not had the chance to compare to the other drivers, but I find that my Stage 4 mids don't seem suited for 2-way application, are quite capable in the lower notes, have a very soft midbass "slap" where as other midbasses I've been exposed to (Morel Elate, Audison Voce, CDT M6) seemed "faster". Tonality, if I am even one to judge it respectfully, is good, though, but I'd say these are WARM, WARM, WARM along with the rest of the Stage 4 speakers (awful close to not in a good way).

I am going to rebuild my baffles which are now stacked circles so it's a but of a tube right now that the speaker is sitting in but they sound very similar in my shops demo vehicle in which they have been put in kick panels venting to the outside. That car has one an award or two so maybe I'm looking for the wrong things... haha.

And if ever another review is done, I think I could throw in an Audison Voce mid for the comparison - so long as I'm not using it by then. And I can include an ID 6x9 midbass if you want to throw a wrench.


----------



## Miguel mac

Any people can send to me pdf? [email protected]


----------

