# What low wattage sub for a boat (sealed)?



## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

Hey guys, 
I'm switching up the sound in my boat to ease up on the battery draw. I currently run a JL 13w7 on the JL 1000/ in the engine compartment and it sounds awesome, but just uses too much power. I want to change to two 10s or 12s under the dash and use as little power as possible while maintaining some good spl. I have space enough to use about one cube on each enclosure. Around $200 for both would be a good budget for the subs only, new or used, I don't care about brand. Any thoughts on sub options?

Thanks!
Doug


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

JBL GTO maybe. The previous version were great subs, I'm sure these are as well.

JBL GTO1214D (GTO-1214D) 12" Dual 4 ohm Grand Touring Subwoofer


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

That one looks pretty good - thanks

Any of these?

Massive audio 
Massive Audio V 12 (V12) 12" Dual 4 ohm V Car Subwoofer
or
Massive Audio PYRO 12 (P12) 12" Dual 4 ohm PYRO Subwoofer

T3 Audio (parts-express buyout)
T3 Audio T400-12S4 12" 400 Watt Subwoofer 4 Ohm 269-088


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Can't speak for those, sorry.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Get some pro audio sub with high efficiency... if you can find one with a poly cone, anyway... or else at least make sure it's coated paper.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Ported or IB is the only way to go in a boat, don't sell yourself short.... 10's seem to blend in the best


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

That is a tough one. In general what makes subs be more efficient are the following:
Larger cone
vented enclosure
multiple subs (adding cone area)
lower power drivers, but also may need larger boxes for same tune
some also run IB subs in boats, you put in more and/or larger subs for more output but you have no box or box weight

You fit what you can, but try to consider the above and see if any of it could work for you.

Some on here also said the RF Prime subs were good for lower power subs, but I've not used them. With a good brand like RF/JBL/similar you likely can't go wrong anyway they are very competitive. A lower power sub should work better on lower power, long as the box is tuned for it. The expensive high power tiny box subs are very inefficient and take a lot more power to run per dB, they will go louder but at considerably more input power. So for better efficiency running lower power subs can get you good output on a lot less wattage...in vented or IB. Figure more subs IB to equal vented usually. If you go IB make sure the sub is going to sound good that way, for example most marine subs are tuned for IB most car subs are more for a box....not that they can't work and if you have EQ its not as big a deal.

One other thing is if you can use some 6x9/7x10/8x12s in your boat, they will bump up the midbass compared to 6.5/etc. Bigger the better, they get louder too more cone area helps that as well as getting lower. Four 7x10 can sound like a bar system and go pretty loud, its not bad for party music even with no subs at all.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

dragonrage said:


> Get some pro audio sub with high efficiency... if you can find one with a poly cone, anyway... or else at least make sure it's coated paper.


Why pro audio? Do they do better with no cabin gain? Could you elaborate? I have made some of the Bill Fitzmaurice horn designs, but they are HUGE.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

Unfortunately I don't have room for a vented enclosure tuned properly, unless there is a sub that works well in less than 1.5 cubes, ideally 1 cube. I am trying to use the larger cone area, lower power, higher efficiency, as you recommended above. I haven't considered the infinite baffle due to the space behind where the subs will be are under the bow seats which will be stuffed full of life jackets, towels, etc., BUT I am curious, because IB subs will save me more space under the dash. It is my understanding that I would need 4x the driver area for IB to work well for reference sound. That said, it's a noisy boat, so I just need loud with low consumption, small space - so I could make a high tune in a smaller than suggested vented with the right sub.

Thanks again for the suggestions


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

efficiency, efficiency, efficiency

In drivers, enclosure, and amplifier power. Forget about everything below 40 cycles and go for kill.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

dayton HO series use small ported boxes. .6 cu ft 10" around 1 cu ft for 12"


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

dougc said:


> Why pro audio? Do they do better with no cabin gain? Could you elaborate? I have made some of the Bill Fitzmaurice horn designs, but they are HUGE.


You don't have to put them in a horn cabinet.

Pro audio 12" woofers tend to be around 95dB 1W/1m instead of 85-90dB 1W/1m that home audio drivers are. They do that by concentrating on, say, 50Hz-up instead of the really low stuff. But that's good enough.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

Gotcha, that's what I'm looking for. 20hz bass sucks the power. The JBL GTO at $90 shipped is the top of the list so far at 93db/1w/m 350 RMS.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

IB - In a car I figure double the subs (4 instead of 2) and end up with more output than a box, but that is a low tuned box with similar FR. A ported box tuned at 50Hz spl style will go louder...louder the higher you tune, but I can't stand to listen to them. I port my boxes around 30 depending on sub size and fs. Some subs will play more spl IB, the Infinity 1262w I had were strong about 40 and up IB. Even more so in a 1.25cf, but IB I could LP them and they played 30Hz no problem...in the box they would not. They were loud in a spl way if I raise the LP.

Kind of hard to use pro audio for subs because they don't play low. SPL is often figured at much higher frequency. They obviously work great in buildings, just make sure they can make the FR you want before you order them. Most of the time you need about twice the diameter driver as an automotive speaker for a similar FR, or something like that.

They also use tubes for boats, sonotube enclosures. They are light you just paint the tubes with resin to waterproof, maybe a layer of glass or use waterproof carpet over it. Back when I was doing boat installs weight was a big issue since it slows you down.

I'd love to try some of those lanzar 8x12s, if they were any good they would rock a boat and cover part of the sub range too making it easier on them.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Keep in mind bassheads.....

Boat = not **** for transfer function.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

Yes it takes some work to get good bass in there with no cabin gain, weird nulls in the boat but subs under the dash have somewhat of a corner loading effect.

This is where they would go (awesome coaxials and sweet rope light removed on purchase). Before I used some ID8 d2v3 on each side that I was not at all impressed with, but sound great now in my truck. Old photo here, but the old .5ft^3 enclosures went up from where the coax pictured is. I can use this space all the way to the floor and sides for a triangular shaped, 7" deep enclosure. Maybe enough space for vented?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

chad said:


> Keep in mind bassheads.....
> 
> Boat = not **** for transfer function.


You got that right, most of the ones I did were offshore style deep vees with big block I/Os with thruhulls. I think the extra midbass from larger woofers really helped because of this. 6x9 or larger sounded way better than 6.5 if you had subs or not. I never did one with too much midbass. If you put them by the floor in the backseat, the bright 7x10 4 way worked great as that ate all the highs down there. You had to be serious if you wanted to hear it at 70-80mph lol. On top of that most of them didn't want subs due to the weight, as they all raced people all the time. So we put quad 6x9/7x/etc in there and it worked in a boat much unlike a car lol. Between the water, beer, and other party things nobody wanted to get too complex either. The speakers had to be durable and easily replaceable lol. To start with I usually went with 7x10 and 6.5 or quad 6x9 parallel on a [email protected] amp. Today I would get a 100+rms x4 class D, and I found some 8x12s I'd have to try those. I'd run IB subs or build some light sonotubes, but with gas like this I've gotten into more land based toys.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

The enclosure in there now with the 13w7 is easily over 100#, so we will be getting lighter for sure by half. There is no room for anything under the rear seat except for amps and too short for any speakers. I will be swapping out my JL XR650 comps for some 6x9 Morels that I found when they were still $26/pair on Amazon. Hope to get some extra mid bass there and they are also more efficient than the XRs.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

Any other ideas for two sealed or vented 10 or 12" subs? Efficient, around $100, works in under 1.75ft^3 - SPL is the priority

JBL GTO1214D is my top pick so far


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

What is behind those coax down there?

I see where you are at not much room, I didn't see the photos till now. I don't have time to model some subs for it, but lot of people here happy with JBL subs.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

sqshoestring said:


> What is behind those coax down there?


A light....


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

I did some tearing $hit apart to see exactly how much space I could make. I removed the wall that the coax is on and found that I can build 5 inches into the compartment under the bow seats without encroaching into that space and will intrude only 6" into the kick area. I made a model out of foam core to fit that space so I can maximize the area. It is a strange shaped enclosure, but I can build so it will be fun. It will be just a few points over the JBL recommended size of 1.75ft^3, which after motor and port space, should be right on. I think I have nailed it with this idea covering all of my needs without losing storage space or foot room.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

chad said:


> A light....


and dustbunnies, spiders, and dried beer


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

dougc said:


> and dustbunnies, spiders, and dried beer


Here it would be some dried catfish bait, a beercan, and a roach.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

I think I will pull the trigger on some of the JBL JTO 12s today since I can't find any feedback or certified ratings on the Massive Audio Rebel 12, which claims a sensitivity of 95db/1w. The JBLs seem like the safest way to go.


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## The Wet 1 (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm assuming given your location that you're not concerned about saltwater, but aren't you still a little concerned about corrosion?

On a related note, does anyone have any thoughts on installing a sub in the cabin of a boat (leaving the door open) rather than in the open cockpit? Would there be a 'cabin gain' or would too much be lost due to some of the sound/wavelengths not making it out of the cabin? I ask this as it would be nice if I could 1) move the weight forward and 2) protect the subs from the elements by mounting the sub(s) forward in the cabin.


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## The Wet 1 (Dec 4, 2011)

sqshoestring said:


> You got that right, most of the ones I did were offshore style deep vees with big block I/Os with thruhulls. I think the extra midbass from larger woofers really helped because of this. 6x9 or larger sounded way better than 6.5 if you had subs or not. I never did one with too much midbass. If you put them by the floor in the backseat, the bright 7x10 4 way worked great as that ate all the highs down there. You had to be serious if you wanted to hear it at 70-80mph lol. On top of that most of them didn't want subs due to the weight, as they all raced people all the time. So we put quad 6x9/7x/etc in there and it worked in a boat much unlike a car lol. Between the water, beer, and other party things nobody wanted to get too complex either. The speakers had to be durable and easily replaceable lol. To start with I usually went with 7x10 and 6.5 or quad 6x9 parallel on a [email protected] amp. Today I would get a 100+rms x4 class D, and I found some 8x12s I'd have to try those. I'd run IB subs or build some light sonotubes, but with gas like this I've gotten into more land based toys.


I too have one of these boats and weight is a concern for me as well. As I mentioned above, any thoughts about mounting the sub(s) in the cabin? If this wont work, I don't have room in the cockpit for a tube, but I could run one or more IB under the rear seats. 

I am planning on mounting 4 speakers in the cockpit as well. I was planning on using these RF 8" marine speakers as they seemed to have received great reviews. Any better recommendations (they will be used in a saltwater environment)? I almost wonder if I could get away w/o a sub running these, or possibly just run 6 of them...

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated since I don't really know what to expect in such an 'open' environment.


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## The Wet 1 (Dec 4, 2011)

SUBscribing.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

The weight isn't that big of a deal unless you are running a bunch of really heavy subs and you are racing your boat. We are talking very little extra weight in a 4200 pound boat considering most of the time it gets lighter as the day goes on (beer). Trim tabs help your cause too if you are running an offshore. The 13w7 with the enclosure I currently have in my boat is at least 100 pounds, and it's not enough to make my boat even start to lean to one side. 6 adults and 3 or 4 kids that are usually on the lake with us cause the weight issue. I have actually decided to leave the JL sub in and run all the subs on a relay on a switch from the amp: 1) low power 12" pair, 2) 13", 3) both. I have never heard better bass in anyone's boat with that sub, but the power consumption is just over the top when the engine is not running. So I will use it only when the engine is running so that it drowns out the exhaust as was originally planned.

If I had the room, I would put 6 IB sbs under the rear seat. Several friends have that setup and it does sound great, but loads of power consumtion again. Consider this and running a switched relay that you can use only 1 or 2 of them when you are tied up in the cove to save battery life. 2 vented enclosures would also work in that area well also, but I haven't seen any done. Some HLCD would be the ticket for the back and/or cockpit for LOUD. Seems like most DIYers use normal car audio speakers everywhere else since we switch things around before any corrosion can happen. Cheaper and better selection too.

What boat do you have, The Wet 1?


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## The Wet 1 (Dec 4, 2011)

Doug, I have an Outerlimits. Only a hundred pounds doesn't seem like much (and it wont make mine move either), but every hundred pounds makes a difference when it comes to speed and even fuel consumption. I guess when you're taking about a 120+mph boat that gets about .7 mpg you would think what difference does it make, but it costs a lot more to add power than it does to remove weight... so at the end of the day I'd rather try to keep the weight adding to a minimum.

I'm tempted to just run the 4 8" RF's in the cockpit for starters and see how much more bass is needed before adding a sub. With a sub the system will no doubt sound better, but the extra amp and weight will drain the batteries a lot faster and slow the boat a little bit.

Regarding a non-marine speakers that's something you can get away with in freshwater, but one splash of saltwater will be obvious within a couple of weeks. It's corrosive stuff.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Sorry I got busy. Sub should work in the cabin, but I would try it just find a sub/box to borrow and toss it in there in various placements. I did one the guy took the porta dumper out in the center and put a sub in there it seemed to work. But most of those boats didn't have much for a cuddy door either lol, we rebuilt a lot of them that broke. We ran Lake Michigan it can get pretty rough. Fresh water we rarely had a problem with corrosion we used all auto equipment except some speakers were marine, occasionally a HU was marine most we used a door on.

Usually IB is pretty efficient but you need a lot of cone area, quads are ideal six would be better unless you had 15s/etc. We seemed to put a lot of 10s in because they fit more places. Class D amp it should not take that much, then again all that beer can make it sound quieter lol.

Weight is the enemy! Unless you don't race and just family use you would not care. We lost mph with one more person in the boat, it took a lot of wrenching to get a mph. We built big block after big block looking for power, we could have one out on a stand in 20 min. One Saturday we had a 454 out of the boat twice changing parts on it and ran it after both times. We finally got a 454 to run with a 525 blower Merc after all that, today they make a lot more power. The heads kind of sucked back then you had to find the right guy to do them.

I think the 8s would work well as 6x9 right? They are ideal in a boat (larger coax, but they didn't have 8s back then), work way better IMO. That is all we put in after a couple boats we learned. The 7x10 were better yet and we ran most of our boats without subs, had those 7x10 under the back seat and 6.5 by the dash in a 24' challenger. It sounded pretty good comparable to a decent bar system. The larger coax also go louder. Other boats we ran quad 6x9 with similar results some we put 3 pair. It works in an open boat, sounds really whack in the car world lol.

IB does not gain that much weight you take that slug of ply out, or most boats were ply inside there (that you need to waterproof). IB subs tend to not have 20lb motors on them so they don't weigh that much. It might not be a bass machine like a car but for party music it can get it on, use the big coax to make it loud and the subs do what they can do.

See you can use a more efficient sub for IB, you have to put a limit on power but it can work well. You will get more out of a HD sub in ported, but it will be a power hog and heavy box. I guess you pick depending on your situation. The tubes are awesome light if you can fit them, guys with outboards strap them up under the bow in 100mph boats they work great.


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## adamtwo4 (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm actually running 2 of the cheap Kicker Comp's in the cabin of my boat on the wall in front of the V berth in IB config. With only 350-400 or so watts, (gain is turned down a lot), it can hit really hard if I turn the sub channel up.


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## dougc (Oct 24, 2009)

I have a few layers of glass to finish and then carpet for the enclosures, but I think they should be under 30 pounds each including drivers. I'll throw them on a scale before I get them installed


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Cool let us know how it works out. Boats always seem to be difficult.


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