# Elemental Designs



## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

Does anyone have any experience with Elemental Designs? I have read and heard some good things about there amps. If you have seen any reviews on there amps I would like to find them. Any help would be appreciated.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

I sure as **** won't be buying a single product from them ever again.

I did however use one of their amps for a while. It was pretty good - looked good, made over rated power, had decent quality terminals, lasted for over a year (til I sold it... to an eD employee no less!) etc. Crossovers were pretty cheap though, poorly designed, and I was worried about turning them on 

And it only did that because it was a product of Tsunami/Avionixx.

They don't, however, design their own products, their marketing is ridiculous, their forum is the equivalent to a Nazi prison camp, and the basis by which they've built and kept their customers looks and sounds good at the onset but in reality is a complete farce.

Which is why, after accumulating 2000+ posts at ICIX trying to beat some sense into people, getting banned and making a comeback - I'm finally gone, and only visit that place once in a while to check out the FS threads.

Rudeboy _nailed it_ in this post -> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=296061&postcount=54


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

DonovanM said:


> I sure as **** won't be buying a single product from them ever again.
> 
> I did however use one of their amps for a while. It was pretty good - looked good, made over rated power, had decent quality terminals, lasted for over a year (til I sold it... to an eD employee no less!) etc. Crossovers were pretty cheap though, poorly designed, and I was worried about turning them on
> 
> ...


I kinda got that feeling too, when posting on there forum. The dont tolerate any criticism of ed.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

I purchased a sub from them a while back. The experience was alright. The sub I received however was not to spec. There was excess glue on the surround, the cone was off centered which caused it to rub on the surround and make an audible buzzing sound at moderate volumes. I ended up returning this requesting a full refund and I shipped it back in the packaging. Weeks went by with no word from eD. When i finally did get a hold of someone they told me that this had been damaged in shipping and that I would need to file a claim with UPS. I filed my claim, and promptly was paid by UPS. I got an email from eD about a month later saying that I needed to claim my sub or it would be thrown away. They were SUPPOSED to give this "damaged" sub back to UPS for claim purposes. Clearly that never happened. Be it their fault or UPS I didn't really care at that point, as I already had my IDQ10v3 replacement that I was MUCH happier with.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

sonic purity said:


> I kinda got that feeling too, when posting on there forum. The dont tolerate any criticism of ed.


You've got to ask yourself if you really want to buy something from a company like that. I don't. I'd much rather buy stuff from Rick of RAAMaudio for instance, who will do everything short of fly out to where you live to install his product himself for you


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## BLD 25 (Apr 13, 2007)

I have owned a few of their products, and i have been pretty happy with them for the price i paid. I think their stuff is pretty good, but again some of the practices are pretty shady. While i personally haven't had any bad problems with their customer service, they are definitely not as good as most others out there, like Mike at soundsplinter, etc.


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

I own the ED Nine.5 amp. I bought it several months ago and I got it and one of the channels was putting out extremely loud distorted noise. I'm suprised it didn't ruin my speakers. With the CD player on 0 it did not make a difference in output levels. 

I sent it back to them and they kept telling me they'd email me that night after they looked at it. Then like two weeks later after I called them like 3 times, they finally tell me that they found my amp and was going to look at it for the first time. They took several more days to do this and finally called me and told me they sent a new one to me because they couldn't figure out what was wrong with the first one.

That whole thing took a month to get my amp back. Unacceptable in my opinion. But what also pissed me off was I had to pay like $30 to ship that monster back to them and they would not reimburse me even though it was a manufacturers defect!

So that's the last thing I'll be buying from them.

The new amp they sent me functions just fine though. No complaints on the amp itself. I like the look of it and it puts out decent power.


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## dbTroy (Nov 30, 2007)

I bought two 13kv2's and a Nine.1 amp from them about 2 years ago. It was a nightmare from day one. They shipped my subs on one day and it was like a week later before they shipped my amp. But I had called ahead of time and everything was "in stock" when I placed my order. Once my subs arrived one of the terminals was completely missing! And when I called to let them know they wanted me to ship it back and to pay for shipping. I was like you are F'Ning crazy it isn't my fault your quality control is atrocious! They finally gave me a prepaid return label. Plus the build quality on both subs was very average at best.

I finally got a new sub that worked and built a sealed box to their exact specs for the two subs. Well after countless hours of tuning they still sounded thick, muddy, and I was highly unimpressed to say the least! I ended up selling everything and getting most of my money back. To this day I will never ever ever give those bastards another penny!


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

I've run a bunch of their stuff, Component set, subs, amps, deadener never had any problems and all performed well.


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## J0ne (Aug 7, 2007)

I posted negatively (on ECA) about an 160v.2 that had blown apart.... Ben sent me a brand new woofer for free.

There products are pretty good. prices are pretty good.

if you invested tons of $$ in a company you wouldn't want\couldn't afford to have people bashing you on your discussion boards.... do what you gotta do.


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## atsaubrey (Jan 10, 2007)

I have only bought deadener from them, two times no less. I will say it "works". After using Second Skin now, I will never ever go back to the eD stuff. Never had a problem ordering it from eD so I guess I cant complain.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

I have some Edead in the floor of my jeep, no real issues. That said, I used damplifier in my doors and rear hatch, and a some on the roof of my black jeep(in Texas) behind some rear speaker areas(had some mid-bass for a couple weeks) and no issues from the SS products

I am also running a single 9kv sub, ported. I really like the sub, and am seriously considering them for my next car...

all that, and I have not bought anything from eD, only from individuals.


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## KnightWhoSaysNI (Jul 23, 2007)

Let me just say this is _*still*_ unresolved. 

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=44987

Please see the date of my first posting. I dont have any woofers in my possession and I dont have any money back in my account. Not slaming just presenting _*facts*_. That's all I was doing in my post on icix and in this post as well. I was absolutely positive with them and have been a patient customer but I think you can see the result of my actions which if you can see the difference in dates between this post and the icix one you can see where it's gotten me.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

They're a ****ing joke on that site. They're like a weird cult, anyone says anything other than high praise for ED and they get gang attacked. I was banned from their too, because I mentioned that edead v1^2 was peeling.

That eshit v1^2 was the one and only purchase I'll ever make from them.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

I love how threads like yours get locked Knight.
IMO, if I'm running a business and own a forum such as ICIX, I would rather have the customer vent online a little bit, and get his frustration out BEFORE calling and dumping a pile of crap on my customer service people.

But then again, if I ran a business, I can confidently say I wouldn't run it the way eD is run.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

I will say that I have owned/oen serveral of their products over the last 6-7 years beginning with my prized e12o's. I have used them on and off for the last 7 or so years and they are GREAT!!! I used in the past a nine.1 and a nine.2. I would never buy one of their amps again, got very hot to the point that they burned the carpet on my amprack and that was with gains on the low end of the setting and pushing the nine.1 at 2ohms. I sent them back and they took over a month to get me out replacements after waiting 4 months for them to be shipped out the first time. I was banned from the forums for reporting this problem and I will never go back over there again. Anyone who can't handle the constructive critisizm or anyones opinion that doesn't match up with theirs isn't worth my time or energy. Just my .02


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

89grand said:


> They're a ****ing joke on that site. They're like a weird cult, anyone says anything other than high praise for ED and they get gang attacked. I was banned from their too, because I mentioned that edead v1^2 was peeling.
> 
> That eshit v1^2 was the one and only purchase I'll ever make from them.


On the other side of the coin, heaven forbid anyone asks a technical question about how to best utilize a piece of ED equipment in some of the other car audio web sites (not this one, it seems pretty civil here), the thread will literally turn into a flame fest and you'll never get your question answered. Bottom line is the people who don't like ED REALLY don't like them and will go out of their way to let others know that. I have one of their subs, but I don't plan to buy anything else from them.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

89grand said:


> They're a ****ing joke on that site. They're like a weird cult, anyone says anything other than high praise for ED and they get gang attacked. I was banned from their too, because I mentioned that edead v1^2 was peeling.
> 
> That eshit v1^2 was the one and only purchase I'll ever make from them.


We should start a site for ppl that have been banned from ICIX!! It would be HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

something inside me wants to join isux just to recomend products that AREN'T eDuh. "don't run that kv2, got you a dayton ho". that would be bannage material right there


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

KnightWhoSaysNI said:


> Let me just say this is _*still*_ unresolved.
> 
> http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=44987
> 
> Please see the date of my first posting. I dont have any woofers in my possession and I dont have any money back in my account. Not slaming just presenting _*facts*_. That's all I was doing in my post on icix and in this post as well. I was absolutely positive with them and have been a patient customer but I think you can see the result of my actions which if you can see the difference in dates between this post and the icix one you can see where it's gotten me.


There do seem to be more hard to resolve issues with ED than we see with other companies. Nobody should have to go public to have their problems addressed.

I think I would encourage anybody in the OP's position to start here and make it a point to watch as many of the "Our Audio Life" videos as they can find. One that I found shocking and that applies to KnightWhoSaysNI's issue featured Chris (mandos on the forums) talking to a customer on the the phone, explaining that he couldn't help him with his warranty issue because they were only dealt with via e-mail. If that's the policy, fine, but it seems very strange to me not to at least get the process started for somebody who has called in.

Also apropos is the video wherein the kid who has been using his little squeeze bottle to glue the dust caps on, reveals that he has been alternating procedures because he wasn't sure which one was correct. Then there is the classic episode where Mr. Milne goes psycho on the installer who has fallen behind on a project car while the rest of the "team" sits on a sofa watching TV.

These videos are fascinating. Some people think they present the company in a positive light. I find them bewildering. They do exist - to me the fact that they have been made public just as bewildering as the content, but they do represent a valuable resource for people wanting some insight.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> One that I found shocking and that applies to KnightWhoSaysNI's issue featured Chris (mandos on the forums) talking to a customer on the the phone, explaining that he couldn't help him with his warranty issue because they were only dealt with via e-mail. If that's the policy, fine, but it seems very strange to me not to at least get the process started for somebody who has called in.


I find this funny because if anything comes up, the first thing they will scream at you is "call us" then lock your thread.

I called, got told I would have to pay shipping both ways to and from Canada for a warrantee replacement on my sub.
Uh, sure, $80 worth of shipping on a $76 sub. I'll get right on that... get right on throwing it in the trash.

Then they took away free shipping on ALL Canadian orders and started pushing people to their Canadian distributor, who jacks the price on everything by 50%.
Woot, way to support your international customers, foisting them off on someone who has no problem overcharging his countrymen.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

sonic purity said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Elemental Designs? I have read and heard some good things about there amps. If you have seen any reviews on there amps I would like to find them. Any help would be appreciated.


All of those responses should hopefully help your decision making process.  

Keep in mind that is just the very tip of the iceberg.


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## WrenchGuy (Jun 10, 2007)

Dont drink the ED Kool-Aid....lol


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

IPBanned from Icix for saying what I thought about the 700s. 700s are no longer sold and revamped as just a sub. Go figure. (at least that is my best guess for why I was banned Never told) Won't buy from them again


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

i dont see why everyone gets their panties in a bunch over what they do on a forum.

ive bought several things from them, all were shipped very fast, quality was great, customer service was top notch, hell i got a call from them on 2 of my orders asking if everything had arrived ok.

thats above and beyond in my book.

i dont know anything about their forum, but hell, if its their forum, who gives a ****? if you ran a forum, and someone came bashing the hell out of you, spreading rumors and possibly hurting your reputation, wouldnt you want to stop it?

i wanna see proof that they steal designs from other companies. i hear that a lot, but never seen any proof other than, here look at this sub, it looks like this sub. that means nothing.


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

It be nice to hear some reasoning behind what they do. We don't like their forum cause they just haphazardly ban people like freaks and never tell you why.


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

It's not what a company does when things go smoothly that defines it. What happens when things go wrong does.


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

haibane said:


> It be nice to hear some reasoning behind what they do. We don't like their forum cause they just haphazardly ban people like freaks and never tell you why.



then dont go there?

how does their forum policies effect their product?


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## KnightWhoSaysNI (Jul 23, 2007)

monkeyboy said:


> It's not what a company does when things go smoothly that defines it. What happens when things go wrong does.


I agree!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Tommy said:


> i wanna see proof that they steal designs from other companies. i hear that a lot, but never seen any proof other than, here look at this sub, it looks like this sub. that means nothing.


With friends like these ... Nobody else mentioned that.  It's not a good sign when your supporters bring up all of the accusations.


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## Dr.Telepathy SQ (Nov 17, 2007)

As an old shop owner from the day, I can say that it's not the smooth sales that happen that keep you in biz. It's how you handle the issues that come up and take care of those who keep you in biz.

That said, it's many car audio companies, small and large, that handle issues very well. 

Let the product and service speak for itself and you wouldn't have to worry about what the people are saying in public or on forums.


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## reker13 (Oct 26, 2007)

I've purchased 3 subs from ED. No problems so I guess I'm lucky. I think the subs have a pretty good price/performance ratio IMO. The KV line works well in lower power applications and are better than many of the big brand name subs from personal experiences. The ED sub line certainly fills a particular need by a segment of DIY'ers.

That said, I'll probably go with different gear in my next install. Its not that I'm not pleased its just that I'm not loyal to ED in anyway and like to mix it up.  I don't drink anyone's Kool Aid....well except me Mom.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Tommy said:


> then dont go there?
> 
> how does their forum policies effect their product?


It doesn't. What they do there is their business, but the net effect is confusing and some would say deceptive. 

The problem could be avoided if it were made perfectly clear to users that the forum was tightly regulated and that criticism, negative impressions and service questions would be deleted. I really don't think most people understand that and instead assume they are glimpsing into a world where everybody is satisfied and the advice they are given is free and unbiased.

It is really more of a place where users can enter there own testimonials. As has been noted several times in this thread, how a company handles problems is significant. Very few customers expect perfection so real time examples of positive CS resolutions would actually work to ED's benefit.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

i've never had a single problem with anything elemental designs. 


i've ordered over 30 things at various times from them. 


the subs are nice ... not the best at taking abuse , but the o series is a very nice SQ driver.


the amps make power and then some. 

the deadening worked for me in the florida heat.


yeah i have never had a problem ... neither did the people i sold the product to when i was managing a shop in florida. 

i have a feeling that the problems we always seem to hear about are always the same people complaining over and over again. 

call it marketing if you wish but elemental designs has outlasted every single fly by night interweb audio company. that says something!!!!


i tend to believe that eD has 99 happy customers for every 1 unhappy customer. you can't please everyone all the time. 

if the product fits your application. use it! for the price to buy authorized with a warranty... the products are very nice and competetively priced!

flame all you want.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

pete36 said:


> i've never had a single problem with anything elemental designs.
> 
> 
> i've ordered over 30 things at various times from them.
> ...


I didnt realize that the amps where avionixx amps. I looked em up and there the same exact amp.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

sonic purity said:


> I didnt realize that the amps where avionixx amps. I looked em up and there the same exact amp.


that avionixx series of amps was never released to the public. value electronics has nothing to do with the eD amps at this time i think the gentlemen at avionixx did design the nine.x series of amps , but avionixx does not make the eD amps anymore.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

pete36 said:


> that avionixx series of amps was never released to the public. value electronics has nothing to do with the eD amps at this time i think the gentlemen at avionixx did design the nine.x series of amps , but avionixx does not make the eD amps anymore.


http://www.avionixx.com/products/nxd_2400m.html

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm...ay&page_id=14&mfg_account_ID=16&category_id=3


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

sonic purity said:


> http://www.avionixx.com/products/nxd_2400m.html
> 
> http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm...ay&page_id=14&mfg_account_ID=16&category_id=3




order it. see what happens


and LOL if you are talking about the heatsink , its been well documented that eD uses the same proven heatsink design. (nothing wrong with that) ... the nx2400 has never been for sale anywhere.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Somebody somewhere did a good lineage of the ED amps - some matched up to the avionixx some matched these. Wish I could find the links.

Aside from all of the personal drama, I really think that stuff like this is what drives people crazy about ED. Amps at this price point have a place in the market. If they were presented as decent products with a good warranty, nobody would care. It's the seeming compulsion they have to exaggerate their expertise and the role they play in bringing these things to market that drives people nuts. These are not high end amplifiers that only wouldn't be chosen by people who are too stupid to know better. They weren't engineered by Ben Milne on the back of a napkin while drinking cognac with Robert Zeff and Steve Mantz. I've said it many times before in this exact context - there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a merchant.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

I have had one eD sub, and it was alright... it was my first internet brand and I thought it was well priced until I began to educate myself... again the sub wasn't bad, but there are a ton of good subs out there for similar money, especially since they raised their prices. My Zuki subs own the 11ov.2 I had for similar money. 

I was going to go with other eD stuff but after seeing some practices and the videos I decided not to. not hate, just a personal choice.... 

I wish them luck and hope they do well and as the company matures their business model does also.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

I've only purchased a couple of things from them, and had a very positive experience. My subs arrived in about 2 days, and the cheapo subs and 8"ers in about 4-5 days. 

I read a ton of threads about them copying designs and not doing things themselves. I see no difference between them copying a JL sub and calling it theirs vs. any of the companies that currently use other companies driver basics (Scan, Vifa, etc.) and call it theirs.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

What's the big deal, they are rebadged avionixx... No real surprise.

They work fine, except the nine.1 fans develop noise fairly often, then the fans burn out.

eD runs their forum tightly, and it bites them in the ass, because when people get burnt, they have no recourse.
If you ***** on their forum, you get banned.

So now you are pissed cause your equipment doesn't work AND because you just got banned for whining a little.
So what you gonna do... you gonna go complain elsewhere.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Well that's nice, we have some plants here from ED. Atleast you are allowed to speak your mind here. I got banned from there for saying I had peeling issues with eshit v1^2 and I never went on any attack, I just mentioned it. I've been gang attacked prior to that numerous times for disagreeing with Ben and others in the cult over technical issues.

The problem is that it's not even a forum, even though most think it is. It's a marketing campaign. It reminds of an infomercial where everybody just happens to love the product. I'm sure there a number of people that have been happy with their products and service, but something tells me it's way less than 99 out of a hundred. If complaints were so rare, they wouldn't feel a need to delete or lock threads on a daily basis, because there would be so few to lock.

As far as their products, they don't really have anything special. You can match or surpass any sub they sell for equal or less money, same with their amps and component speakers. 

Their low line deadener is an absolute joke.

No one here is getting any panties in a bunch. The op asked about ED and are getting opinions about them. If the ED plants can't handle the criticism 
some of us have, I suggest saying at ICIX were none is allowed. It's weird anyway, the only people in love with ED are all on ICIX, they don't seem to have a strong presence anywhere else.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Foglght said:


> I see no difference between them copying a JL sub and calling it theirs vs. any of the companies that currently use other companies driver basics (Scan, Vifa, etc.) and call it theirs.


There's a HUGE difference. If I make speakers and you want to buy them from me and put your name on it, then I become an OEM supplier as well.

If you steal my design, that's an totally different story all together and will lead to lawsuites against you and many other people thinking you're ********.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

dogstar said:


> What's the big deal, they are rebadged avionixx... No real surprise.
> 
> They work fine, except the nine.1 fans develop noise fairly often, then the fans burn out.
> 
> ...




well they are not rebadged avionixx ... lol i've owned both. the nx2400 never came to market anyhow ... and how many dozens and dozens of amps have the SAME BOARD and claimed to have designed them in some form of marketing?! 90% at least. especially now that we are in the days of overseas production. the eD nine.x series amps is what it is ... a budget minded amplifier that makes rated power and has the best warranty in the market in its price class.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Does that "best warranty" include the customer with a defective product having to pay shipping back to and from ed?


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

^thats pretty standard actually. I deal with warranty returns every week on all sorts of computer equipment, the only company that doesnt charge return shipping is Dell.

I dont know about big companies like JL, but i cant imagine them fronting the bill for shipping to/from. MAYBE return to you, but never to them. 

And hell, if you're in the US, they pay for the shipping to get it to you, so why complain?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Tommy said:


> ^thats pretty standard actually. I deal with warranty returns every week on all sorts of computer equipment, the only company that doesnt charge return shipping is Dell.
> 
> I dont know about big companies like JL, but i cant imagine them fronting the bill for shipping to/from. MAYBE return to you, but never to them.
> 
> And hell, if you're in the US, they pay for the shipping to get it to you, so why complain?


If I buy a product, I'll pay shipping. If the product fails under warranty, I will not and should not.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

89grand said:


> If I buy a product, I'll pay shipping. If the product fails under warranty, I will not and should not.


x2.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

pete36 said:


> well they are not rebadged avionixx


Avionixx NXD 2400M










ED NINe.1










That sure as **** looks like the exact same board to me. And with virtually the same heatsink and connectors, what else is left?


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

tough **** in the real world. Ive never been offered free shipping to, AND free shipping if it breaks under warranty.

you want it fixed, you gotta pay for the shipping. If you dont like it, find someone who offers it to you, and good luck.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

i would assume that you are talking about me? eD plant? lmao where are you from? CAF? i've been on this site since it opened , just never posted until the other day so i had to sign up. 

i dont use a single eD product. i have in the past. i have experience with everything from brax to boss 


everyone in car audio has brand loyalty. it does get a little heavy on icix , where for every single application someone suggests eD or DLS and not much else. 

i just know how it is. people who are happy with customer service or a product or support with a product are so much less likely to speak up about the experience then someone who had a not so good experience. the people who have had a bad experience with eD have a hatred and hold a grudge like no group of people i have ever seen. 

i used to compete spl and have destroyed lots of things in this game. when i froze 8 12" orion xtr's i didn't call orion and tell them to lick my nuts cause the speakers froze and i was at fault (this was before forums .. 96ish.) and i also didn't call mmats when a voicecoil came shooting out of a sub. **** breaks people. GET OVER IT! 








89grand said:


> Well that's nice, we have some plants here from ED. Atleast you are allowed to speak your mind here. I got banned from there for saying I had peeling issues with eshit v1^2 and I never went on any attack, I just mentioned it. I've been gang attacked prior to that numerous times for disagreeing with Ben and others in the cult over technical issues.
> 
> The problem is that it's not even a forum, even though most think it is. It's a marketing campaign. It reminds of an infomercial where everybody just happens to love the product. I'm sure there a number of people that have been happy with their products and service, but something tells me it's way less than 99 out of a hundred. If complaints were so rare, they wouldn't feel a need to delete or lock threads on a daily basis, because there would be so few to lock.
> 
> ...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Tommy said:


> tough **** in the real world. Ive never been offered free shipping to, AND free shipping if it breaks under warranty.
> 
> you want it fixed, you gotta pay for the shipping. If you dont like it, find someone who offers it to you, and good luck.



I don't need to worry about it, because I won't by **** from ed.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

From a business point of view though, would you guys do any different? They seem to be pretty good at what they're doing... that is making money when all these other small companies have fallen by the wayside.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

DonovanM said:


> x2.


For discount products like ED I think that's a bit unreasonable expectation.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

npdang said:


> From a business point of view though, would you guys do any different? They seem to be pretty good at what they're doing... that is making money when all these other small companies have fallen by the wayside.



Yeah, I'd call it the 89grand forum to support 89grand amps and speakers. I wouldn't give it a name that appears not to be connected to 89grand so that people that don't know any better never get unbiased opinions.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

where did you not understand that the avionixx never came out? i've seen the pics. i know its the SAME. but that is the ONLY one of its kind. 

how many amps at the price point do NOT share boards ... very few. 

i've never heard ben milne claim to have designed the amps in any way. 


as far as shipping... uh you always have to pay. ONE exception is when buying from an authorized dealer and they have the item in stock and do a swap out and then the dealer pays shipping... shipping is not FREE! 





DonovanM said:


> Avionixx NXD 2400M
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

89grand said:


> I don't need to worry about it, because I won't by **** from ed.


and thats your choice.

this forum talks a lot of crap about eD and ive really never understood why. you get a couple people who have bad experiences, and a whole forum turns against them.

Bigger companies have the same problems, but eD is unique because they're all online, word of mouth stuff. people talk more **** on the internet than they do praise, so it skews the perspective.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

DonovanM said:


> Avionixx NXD 2400M
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to learn how to count. The first one has a 7 blade fan, the second 9 blades. How can you even think they are the same thing?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

npdang said:


> For discount products like ED I think that's a bit unreasonable expectation.


I've owned a lot of audio equipment and have never had to send a single one back to the manufacturer, so if someone is making a decent product, returns should be very rare. Like I said, I'll pay shipping to buy it, but shouldn't have to pay to return an amp that fails under warranty, and pay again to get it back. That's ludicrous to me.


Paying shipping back to and from the manufacturer is fine as long as it's being sent back for repair work out of warranty, or if the failure is determined to be user error, otherwise, no.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Tommy said:


> and thats your choice.
> 
> this forum talks a lot of crap about eD and ive really never understood why. you get a couple people who have bad experiences, and a whole forum turns against them.
> 
> Bigger companies have the same problems, but eD is unique because they're all online, word of mouth stuff. people talk more **** on the internet than they do praise, so it skews the perspective.


People talk **** about stuff they don't like. If there was nothing to hate about ED, no one would hate them, or at least only very few would.

It's like Bose, the people that like them think it's some weird conspiracy against the greatest speaker maker of all time when in reality, people talk **** about Bose, because Bose is horrible.

When enough people talk **** about something, there's usually a good reason for it.


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

it sucks, but thats the way it is. i know of very few companies in any industry that will pay for shipping on warranty returns. its just the way it is.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Tommy said:


> and thats your choice.
> 
> this forum talks a lot of crap about eD and ive really never understood why. you get a couple people who have bad experiences, and a whole forum turns against them.
> 
> Bigger companies have the same problems, but eD is unique because they're all online, word of mouth stuff. people talk more **** on the internet than they do praise, so it skews the perspective.


I think ED has done alot of their own work in getting the reputation they have.


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

89grand said:


> People talk **** about stuff they don't like. If there was nothing to hate about ED, no one would hate them, or at least only very few would.
> 
> It's like Bose, the people that like them think it's some weird conspiracy against the greatest speaker maker of all time when in reality, people talk **** about Bose, because Bose is horrible.
> 
> When enough people talk **** about something, there's usually a good reason for it.


Bose isnt ****, some of the best sounding stock stereos are Bose. People in car audio hate bose cause it doesnt sound as good as aftermarket and its a pain to remove it. People hate bose, cause its fun to hate bose. people hate eD because its fun to hate eD. 

of course the other reason to hate bose is that its expensive as hell, and not worth the money, but the market it has, its top of. Simple, clean sounding stereos for the masses.

sheeple...


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

a phenomenal failure rate is 3% 

most companys are WAY higher then that. 


worked in and managed a shop for 10 years. you see so much fun stuff! 


someone pays for shipping. whether you think its right or not is not important. 

items that are determined to fall under the warranty usually get shipped back to you for free. but NEVER do they pay your shipping. not in the mobile electronics world they dont. 






89grand said:


> I've owned a lot of audio equipment and have never had to send a single one back to the manufacturer, so if someone is making a decent product, returns should be very rare. Like I said, I'll pay shipping to buy it, but shouldn't have to pay to return an amp that fails under warranty, and pay again to get it back. That's ludicrous to me.
> 
> 
> Paying shipping back to and from the manufacturer is fine as long as it's being sent back for repair work out of warranty, or if the failure is determined to be user error, otherwise, no.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

89grand said:


> I've owned a lot of audio equipment and have never had to send a single one back to the manufacturer, so if someone is making a decent product, returns should be very rare. Like I said, I'll pay shipping to buy it, but shouldn't have to pay to return an amp that fails under warranty, and pay again to get it back. That's ludicrous to me.
> 
> 
> Paying shipping back to and from the manufacturer is fine as long as it's being sent back for repair work out of warranty, or if the failure is determined to be user error, otherwise, no.


I think it has been pretty clearly demonstrated that QC is less of a priority at ED than most places. A certain percentage of electronic devices are going to blow the very first time they see power after they leave the factory in Asia. It really doesn't seem right to require the customer to pay for shipping because no burn in was done on the product.

On the other hand, DIY car audio ir rough for returns. Abuse is very common. A policy that offers a refund on shipping if the problem is a manufacturing defect would be reasonable. Unfortunately, you need to be fully trusted for that to work.

Back to the videos, there is one in which Milne discovers that one of his people has rejected 1/2 of a run of subs during QC. He looks at them and determines that all but one are suitable for sale and raises hell with the guy who rejected the rest. That's always bothered me - it wasn't like the guy was doing eeny, meeny, miny mo on these things, he had reasons for each one.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

as the only internet company to survived ... id say they do have a better rep then you think  


ben has made so many mistakes that its not even funny. he cant live things down that happend in 2003... that said. eD is making boatloads of money. while adire goes under and a few other fly by night companys follow or never get off the ground.

im 28 and i've made many mistakes in business and in my life. everyone does. ben is 25? and not perfect. but making way more money then me and has more business then he EVER has 






bassfromspace said:


> I think ED has done alot of their own work in getting the reputation they have.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

pete36 said:


> as the only internet company to survived ... id say they do have a better rep then you think
> 
> 
> ben has made so many mistakes that its not even funny. he cant live things down that happend in 2003... that said. eD is making boatloads of money. while adire goes under and a few other fly by night companys follow or never get off the ground.
> ...


All internet companies were able to say this at one time. I remember Mover making similar comments.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

pete36 said:


> as the only internet company to survived ... id say they do have a better rep then you think
> 
> 
> ben has made so many mistakes that its not even funny. he cant live things down that happend in 2003... that said. eD is making boatloads of money. while adire goes under and a few other fly by night companys follow or never get off the ground.


There are no other internet companies any more? I missed that press release.



pete36 said:


> im 28 and i've made many mistakes in business and in my life. everyone does. ben is 25? and not perfect. but making way more money then me and has more business then he EVER has


As PT Barnum once said....there's a sucker born every minute.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

pete36 said:


> ben has made so many mistakes that its not even funny. he cant live things down that happend in 2003...


I think people are more concerned about problems from 2007 than 2003. It's not the odd problem from the past, it's the pattern that has been consistent through out. Even more than that, I think it the blaming of everybody else. Build houses, customers and people who dare to point out problems are lumped into a vast conspiracy to hurt little ED. Saying we ****ed up, sorry, but we made it right goes a long way toward solving PR problems like ED has. Blaming the "irrational hate parade" doesn't. very few people care enough to hold grudges for no reason. Create enemies and threads like this attract them.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

CMR22 said:


> There are no other internet companies any more? I missed that press release.
> 
> 
> 
> As PT Barnum once said....there's a sucker born every minute.





glad you think so. lol i guess i am a sucker. 

what do you know that i dont sir?


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> All internet companies were able to say this at one time. I remember Mover making similar comments.


Mover?
MOVER?!?!

Thank God for him!
Taught me exactly how not to market an amazing product on the forums..

ANT
www.secondskinaudio.com


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I think people are more concerned about problems from 2007 than 2003. It's not the odd problem from the past, it's the pattern that has been consistent through out. Even more than that, I think it the blaming of everybody else. Build houses, customers and people who dare to point out problems are lumped into a vast conspiracy to hurt little ED. Saying we ****ed up, sorry, but we made it right goes a long way toward solving PR problems like ED has. Blaming the "irrational hate parade" doesn't. very few people care enough to hold grudges for no reason. Create enemies and threads like this attract them.





i must admit. i did miss most of 2007. i did have bigger things on the table then car audio lol . what happend in 07? got any links?

im certainly curious. i certainly have seen the wrongs in the past. 

i've just never had a personal bad experience with eD. products are what they are ... imo good for the money when buying authorized ... you can get much better at a similar cost on the gray market.


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## GenPac (Oct 29, 2007)

Tommy said:


> _this forum talks a lot of crap about eD _and ive really never understood why. you get a couple people who have bad experiences, and _a whole forum turns against them_.


There are a few DIYMA members that dislike eD for stated reasons. There are a few DIYMA members that take it upon themselves to defend eD.

How can you say _'this forum talks alot of crap about eD'_ and _'a whole forum turns against them'_ if it's always only a select few that have greivances with them? Aren't you yourself a member of DIYMA forums? How can your statements be even remotely accurate?


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

how can you take things so literally?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

As a final note to the OP: I can't think of any other company that would elicit this sort of response. Obviously plenty of people have good experiences with ED. My only direct experience with them has been as a reviewer of sound deadening materials and that has been a very interesting experience indeed. I learned very quickly that it is a very complicated situation. I believe I was the first to call the ED supporters a "cult" 

I've noticed that the defenders have lost some of their enthusiasm. I've also noticed that there are many more people who select ED products for their first project than there are people who have stuck with them over the years. I suspect that car audio has become something like scorched earth for them - check out their site and it looks like they are moving away form car audio and in to HT.

In my case there is a personal component. Ben Milne decided to turn my insistence that they be honest about their sound deadeners in to a dishonest attack against me in this thread. Paranoid, childish and, as I said, not true. That makes it fun for me to enter threads like this and do things like post links to posts in which he has obviously lied. Just sort of for fun. I actually have a folder of bookmarks to Web pages titled "ED Lies" - quite a few entries by now. I've notice a similarity between ED and the Peel & Seal they used to sell as eDead. Plenty of people swear by both. After some time, things go bad and they are just as enthusiastically con as they once were pro.

On the other hand, check out the member user name simplicityinsound. He is an ED dealer and strongly endorses them as a source of cheap equipment. He uses them in some of the very nice installs he does for a living, so there are two sides to everything. OTOH, he brokered the deal that made ED the online retailer for DLS, despite a lot of controversy on this and other boards. As far as I know, he hasn't commented on the reasons that deal collapsed, so he may have changed his position on ED - maybe the Peel & Seal melted, so to speak.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

I would like to know when Pete started doing Mr. Milne's taxes and was thus qualified to gloat about his income.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

8 pages and not one post from Chadillac? 

I bought a pair of those $5 8" sub things and they arrived promptly. Also owned a flat cone sub long ago and it was a great sub.

Banned multiple times from the ISUX for various reasons. Most notably, I asked why eDead was about as good at "deadening" as duck taping some dog **** to your door.  And I'm still pealing the stinky **** off to this day. Lesson learned.


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## Tommy (Oct 21, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> On the other hand, check out the member user name simplicityinsound. He is an ED dealer and strongly endorses them as a source of cheap equipment. He uses them in some of the very nice installs he does for a living, so there are two sides to everything. OTOH, he brokered the deal that made ED the online retailer for DLS, despite a lot of controversy on this and other boards. As far as I know, he hasn't commented on the reasons that deal collapsed, so he may have changed his position on ED - maybe the Peel & Seal melted, so to speak.


Word. they dont make the best products, they dont make the worst products. What they make is reasonably priced stuff thats better than the masses you find at best buy. 

All BS customer service/forum bashing/product questionablity aside, they make a good product for someone starting out in the world car audio using non-mainstream equipment.

I dont have any favorite companies, and only a couple i refuse to use, but the only reason i refuse them is they dont make products that appeal to me. Im fine with childish bs, at least its childish bs coming from the people who work for/own the company. I cant think of many companies where i know the name of the owner, and could easily reach him if i wanted to.


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> 8 pages and not one post from Chadillac?
> 
> I bought a pair of those $5 8" sub things and they arrived promptly. Also owned a flat cone sub long ago and it was a great sub.
> 
> Banned multiple times from the ISUX for various reasons. Most notably, I asked why eDead was about as good at "deadening" as duck taping some dog **** to your door.  And I'm still pealing the stinky **** off to this day. Lesson learned.


I'm going to stay pretty quiet on this topic. Definitely don't look for me to defend eD anymore, but I'm not going to say they screw people either.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

The last time I looked at their eNetic 1/0 power wire, it was good stuff at a good price. I'll give them that.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Sex Cells said:


> I would like to know when Pete started doing Mr. Milne's taxes and was thus qualified to gloat about his income.


Maybe he saw some papers on the nightstand by the bed? 

Sorry just couldn't help myself - there's nothing wrong with it if that's what happened. 

I'll stop now.


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

Sex Cells said:


> I would like to know when Pete started doing Mr. Milne's taxes and was thus qualified to gloat about his income.


And I'd like to know if he shipped that amp yet...


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

haibane said:


> And I'd like to know if he shipped that amp yet...


[email protected] michael got his tracking number lol ... as for taxes... obviously not, but growing like they have in 6 years can't happen without a very solid cash flow


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## kwhitelaw (Sep 4, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> On the other hand, check out the member user name simplicityinsound. He is an ED dealer and strongly endorses them as a source of cheap equipment. He uses them in some of the very nice installs he does for a living, so there are two sides to everything. OTOH, he brokered the deal that made ED the online retailer for DLS, despite a lot of controversy on this and other boards. As far as I know, he hasn't commented on the reasons that deal collapsed, so he may have changed his position on ED - maybe the Peel & Seal melted, so to speak.



no discount to bing, but i imagine its safe to say that he gets treated a tiny bit better than everyone else. 

on the flipside, ask CCSS about eD..


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

You guys crack me up, the only other thing on this board that gets people so worked up is zuki not rating amps to everyones satisfaction.


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

pete36 said:


> [email protected] michael got his tracking number lol ... as for taxes... obviously not, but growing like they have in 6 years can't happen without a very solid cash flow


You know how long I heard about that??


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

JayBee said:


> You guys crack me up, the only other thing on this board that gets people so worked up is zuki not rating amps to everyones satisfaction.


So, you just HAD to bring that up, didn't you?


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

89grand said:


> There's a HUGE difference. If I make speakers and you want to buy them from me and put your name on it, then I become an OEM supplier as well.
> 
> If you steal my design, that's an totally different story all together and will lead to lawsuites against you and many other people thinking you're ********.


Haven't we (not you and I) talked about the very small differences between many of the drivers that are out there, including Alpine, Morel, Scan, Dyn, and a few others. The cone designs look identical, and so are some of the other parts. Did they all call up the correct companies and buy the design? I really don't know. Maybe they did. 

I won't bash ED, but I really don't want to support them other than their customer service, which was great for me. Every company has their issues. I love Diamond products, but would NEVER buy another one because of their terrible customer service. I waited so long to get a replacement amplifier, they had enough time to come out with a NEW MODEL!  

I just haven't heard or seen enough 10" subs that are made for a .5ft^3 box sealed with the kind of output that I get.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

89grand said:


> I've owned a lot of audio equipment and have never had to send a single one back to the manufacturer, so if someone is making a decent product, returns should be very rare. Like I said, I'll pay shipping to buy it, but shouldn't have to pay to return an amp that fails under warranty, and pay again to get it back. That's ludicrous to me.
> 
> 
> Paying shipping back to and from the manufacturer is fine as long as it's being sent back for repair work out of warranty, or if the failure is determined to be user error, otherwise, no.


If your radio stops working in your stock car (I know thats a stretch), you still have to actually drive it to the dealer and pay for gas to get there. The dealer might fix it for free, but they aren't going to re-imburse you for the miles you drove, or the gas you guzzled with that hemi to get there. Was I being redundant?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Foglght said:


> If your radio stops working in your stock car (I know thats a stretch), you still have to actually drive it to the dealer and pay for gas to get there. The dealer might fix it for free, but they aren't going to re-imburse you for the miles you drove, or the gas you guzzled with that hemi to get there. Was I being redundant?


If it cost me $30 to get there, then I had to wait weeks or months for my car, then pay $30 to get back home again I'd certainly *****.


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## Thewavecaraudio (Oct 20, 2007)

I have a blown 9.1, and I lived in Canada, i'll vote after I test the service..


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Thewavecaraudio said:


> I have a blown 9.1, and I lived in Canada, i'll vote after I test the service..


Good luck!


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## CGG318 (Apr 9, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> The last time I looked at their eNetic 1/0 power wire, it was good stuff at a good price. I'll give them that.


v4 is nice.


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## nadaclue (Nov 8, 2006)

Thewavecaraudio said:


> I have a blown 9.1, and I lived in Canada, i'll vote after I test the service..


I have a blown 9.1 as well. Used lightly at 1 ohm on a fi q 12" for ~8 months, started heart beating one day while driving to work and blows fuses on powerup now. I bought it second hand (unused) but don't have the original receipt so no warranty for me. Still trying to decide what to do with it.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

sonic purity said:


> Does anyone have any experience with Elemental Designs? I have read and heard some good things about there amps. If you have seen any reviews on there amps I would like to find them. Any help would be appreciated.


Well, I think you guys have pretty much answered my question.


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## King Nothing (Oct 10, 2005)

For what its worth, I bought a B-stock 16ov.2 off of ebay. the auction was mislabeld as a dual 2 ohm and the sub I got was a dual 4 ohm. I called them and they sent a call tag for the wrong sub I got and sent me out a dual 2 ohm sub no questions asked. After the great service I got it really surprises me to see all the bad things said. I really wanted to do a 9.5 too.....


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## Pseudonym (Apr 17, 2006)

back before there was DIYMA and eca was king, there was a little company called eD that sold the A series and O series subs and they were the boner of the month cuz of their rock bottom prices and awesome performance from small enclosures and low power. ever since those subs went away, pretty much ever since they abandoned their flat cones, their reputation has hit the ****ter.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Tommy said:


> tough **** in the real world. Ive never been offered free shipping to, AND free shipping if it breaks under warranty.
> 
> you want it fixed, you gotta pay for the shipping. If you dont like it, find someone who offers it to you, and good luck.


av123, Aperion Audio.... to name a new. and their products are MUCH MUCH larger and heavier than eDs. There are plenty of companies that support this policy. Just because you work for a company who doesn't fully back their products performance, doesn't mean there aren't companies that do.

Hell, they cover the shipping even if you don't LIKE the product. That is what you call confidence in their quality. eD on the other hand, made me pay to ship a sub back to them that had the entire cone glued on off centered. Clearly not a fluke incident since Knight had the SAME issue with his. Mine was so badly off centered that it was rubbing against the surround, and had a gap on the other side causing an audible buzz. There was also leftover glue on dried on the surround instead of being wiped off. How does that demonstrate good quality control?


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

89grand said:


> If it cost me $30 to get there, then I had to wait weeks or months for my car, then pay $30 to get back home again I'd certainly *****.


Of course you would, but Dodge still isn't going to pay you back.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

For non-DOA warranty work, paying to ship the item to the company is reasonable, if those terms are spelled out from the beginning. Since warranty work is, by definition, a manufacturing defect, putting all of the weight on the customer seems unreasonable.

In any case, requiring the customer to pay shipping both ways discourages reasonable quality control. It's cheaper for the seller to ship the product untested and only deal with those few that come back at the customer's expense. You'll also get something similar to the unredeemed gift card situation where a percentage of customers, or those for whom the cost of 2 way shipping exceeds the product's value, won't even bother. 

Especially for products that are so expensive to ship, better QC procedures would go a long way toward reducing the sorts of complaints being described.


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## immacomputer (Nov 4, 2007)

I bought two of the eD $5 8s and the packaging arrived in flawless condition yet one sub had significant damage to the frame which caused a little damage to the surround. There were flakes of paint missing on it from the damage yet no flakes of paint in the plastic covering. They let a damaged product ship... that's excellent quality control.


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

This topic


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

Pseudonym said:


> back before there was DIYMA and eca was king, there was a little company called eD that sold the A series and O series subs and they were the boner of the month cuz of their rock bottom prices and awesome performance from small enclosures and low power. ever since those subs went away, pretty much ever since they abandoned their flat cones, their reputation has hit the ****ter.


Yup


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

More former customers of ED on here than I would have thought. I guess they are doing decently well. 

 I voted for disgusting... they offer a decent product for a good price with decent customer service, but their quality control is nonexistant and their general attitude lacks any integrity and is completely dishonest. 

IMHO.

I recommended ED home theater stuff to a buddy a while back... had to withdraw my recommendation. I won't recommend a company that might ship him an already damaged product and make him go through all that trouble.


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## KAPendley (Nov 19, 2007)

I promised awhile back I would keep to myself, Im going to hold up to that promise. Everyone, for the most part, knows how I feel about eD, and thats eNuff for me. HAHA. 

Hey Ben, how ya been?.................Hope the etruth about eD comes out eSoon. HAHAHAHA


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

As of right now.... we have 14 above average ratings versus 15 below average ratings. A near 1 to 1 ratio from sucky to good, hmmmm.... that must mean something.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

Tommy said:


> it sucks, but thats the way it is. i know of very few companies in any industry that will pay for shipping on warranty returns. its just the way it is.


It is NOT "just the way it is".

If a product fails and is RMAed, any respectable company pays for the shipping to return it to their repair depot/warehouse/garbage can.

Been there, done that many times in various jobs at various industries...
Sent a 19 ton laser back to JAPAN because we were sent the wrong unit. Not even the wrong model, the wrong serial numbered unit.

Worked fine, we were perfectly satisfied, but the company said that was not how they wanted to do business and preferred to send the machine out to match the documents we had.

Cost them damn near $55,000 to right thier mistake, but they did.
When parts failed under warrantee on that machine, they were sent out shipping paid, and the technician's visit was paid for, even though each visit ran into the thousands of dollars.

That's an extreme example, and kinda an apples/oranges comparison, but that is how warrantee work SHOULD be handled.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

Thewavecaraudio said:


> I have a blown 9.1, and I lived in Canada, i'll vote after I test the service..


You poor poor man...

When I thought mine had a problem, I was given a shipping estimate (send and return shipping) that made it cheaper to buy another used nine.1.

Ended up taking it to a local shop and had it repaired for $22.

Ask ED if you can find a local shop that can inspect the amp and tell them what the problem is, so they can tell you whether or not they will repair under warrantee... also get a quote from the shop, may just be cheaper to fix it locally.


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## immacomputer (Nov 4, 2007)

I agree with dogstar. 

When I bought my av12 from Acoustic Elegance, about one quarter of the surround was unglued. John had me a shipping slip within 3 days and I received a new av12 within a week from getting the old one. He then applogized for it taking too long! I was happy with only the week wait and not having to pay shipping.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Perfect example of a good business model undermined by horrible execution.


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## speakerboy (Oct 2, 2007)

Pseudonym said:


> back before there was DIYMA and eca was king, there was a little company called eD that sold the A series and O series subs and they were the boner of the month cuz of their rock bottom prices and awesome performance from small enclosures and low power. ever since those subs went away, pretty much ever since they abandoned their flat cones, their reputation has hit the ****ter.


Been there and still have a "prototype 10A"  After a little discussion with a senior executive at TC Sounds, turns out I have a TC sub, that Ben was looking at licensing (_cough_ copying _cough_). Not a bad sub, and I still plan on using it. It puts out, and does not have a name anywhere on it. Plus, it has a really neat carbon fiber dustcap. I got it while I was a member at soundillusions.net, where I think Ben kind of got his start pitching subs, and selling them out of his parents garage.

It's not the fact that they have some QC issues, because I personally have not had experience with that. It's the fact that the product is misrepresented as developed in house, when it has obviously been purchased from another buildhouse. To me that seriously questions the integrity of the company. 

When I build a kit, I don't say I designed it, I say that I built it. Two different things.


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

I've bought quite a few subs off these guys...

the Closeout deals are where its @


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

i preordered a pair of kv.2's forever ago, almost 4 years ago, and they gave everyone that preordered a 20% off discount for the next time we ordered something.

nowhere in the e-mail did it say it had any kind of expiration date and so i go to use it over the summer and they told me it expired a year after they gave it out..

im like wtf? then put an expiration date in the ****in e-mail. never doing business with them again


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## BLD 25 (Apr 13, 2007)

its_bacon12 said:


> i preordered a pair of kv.2's forever ago, almost 4 years ago, and they gave everyone that preordered a 20% off discount for the next time we ordered something.
> 
> nowhere in the e-mail did it say it had any kind of expiration date and so i go to use it over the summer and they told me it expired a year after they gave it out..
> 
> im like wtf? then put an expiration date in the ****in e-mail. never doing business with them again


yeah, i was upset about that. I had a discount from a kv.2, and the edead v.3, and then it disappeared.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> These videos are fascinating. Some people think they present the company in a positive light. I find them bewildering. They do exist - to me the fact that they have been made public just as bewildering as the content, but they do represent a valuable resource for people wanting some insight.


I keep a fairly close eye on the car audio industry as a whole and found these videos to be quite telling. Their factory is merely a receiving dock, some tables and a few desks. Their warranty work (from what I can tell) consists of an individual gluing soft parts together and running a tone generator through them. How do they know that they're meeting spec after a repair? They don't. I never saw any electronic repair area - no test equipment other than a DMM.
While I never planned on being a customer of theirs - I will never recommend them, either. Especially after watching those videos.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> You need to learn how to count. The first one has a 7 blade fan, the second 9 blades. How can you even think they are the same thing?


And the speaker relay is a different brand.  

You crack me up.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

envisionelec said:


> You crack me up.


I'm a card


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## CHH777 (Apr 20, 2006)

Damn, this is one active 2-day old thread!

I've bought eD stuff and it's been okay. I like the eDead EU & TekLite I got from them. Raamat was my 1st choice because everything I've read, but TekLite is self-adhesive and I'm too fawking lazy to mask/spray glue in my doors. It went in easily and works quite well. Can't comment on the thinner eDead or liquids. I did buy a second-hand NINe.2X and it had that customary little sample of the old asphalt based eDead stuck inside the box. What a damn mess that **** becomes!

I also bought a used pair of the discontinued 12k.44 flat cones and I just love ‘em. Solidly built little subs and they sound very good. They don’t take a ****-ton of power to get them moving but they also handle stupid power. And I’ve got (3) SQ10s and a set of 6500s still sitting in the boxes so we’ll see.

ICIX is a mixed bag IMO. They have some very knowledgeable, logical thinking, mature members who go out of their way to help out anyone. And then there’s the eD congregation who go on and on about how they have the best sounding system in the county and it’s all because they only have eD equipment. ********. But then again they have many members that are too young to have ever heard the good 'ole **** or even newer high-end equip. It’s actually humorous at times. And don’t EVEN think about making a negative comment there. I’ve seen multiple 20+ page threads slamming some poor sap that had a simple question about eD product usage that was deemed as “worded negatively”. Result=Banned, and I find that quite distasteful.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

One of the reasons I posted this, is because I couldnt get any real opinion on ICIX. I asked how the SQ of the NINe series stacked up to companies like Zapco and JL Audio. Just to get a feel for the equipment. I got the run around about how no one can hear the difference between any modern amplifier and SQ is all the same because an amp doesnt change the sound but just amplifiys it. Now any of you who have used Zapco amps can attest to the fact that there is a difference in SQ in amps. I change my equipment regularly in my cars. Everytime I put a Zapco amp on my mids and highs they come alive. Not saying that the other amps I have used dont sound good. But there is just a depth and clarity to the Zapcos that I dont seem to get out of most other amps. Anyway, I think this thread has answered my question about the NINe amps.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

I'll tell you the same thing i told you over there, I don't think i would swap some zapco for the 9.x amps. eD amps are pretty solid, but they aren't Zapcos.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

JayBee said:


> I'll tell you the same thing i told you over there, I don't think i would swap some zapco for the 9.x amps. eD amps are pretty solid, but they aren't Zapcos.


I know, but I like to change my stuff up alot. Its a sickness I have.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

In all fairness, It would probably be best for someone to invite Ben or another representative of ED to join this discussion.

They may be able to shed some light on a few of the concerns of our members.

Or at a minimum a few ICIX members should be invited so we can get a well rounded unbiased set of new opinions.

ANT
www.secondskinaudio.com


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm pretty sure we already have some ICIX members here...**** I'm a member over there...with an alias of course.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

sonic purity said:


> I know, but I like to change my stuff up alot. Its a sickness I have.


So change it up for something good 


Inviting Ben here would result in each of the naysayers being added to his list of those who have personally wronged him and "caused problems for eD"

"Yes, the 13A is delayed again, because dogstar posted something mean and caused one of our suppliers to not send us the parts."

For what it's worth, I am currently an ICIX member, and I see a few other names I recognize...


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

dogstar said:


> So change it up for something good
> 
> 
> Inviting Ben here would result in each of the naysayers being added to his list of those who have personally wronged him and "caused problems for eD"
> ...



hmmm...


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

OK OK OK... I'll tell the supplier to send the parts


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm an ICIX member, have been since the begining. I understand that some people have had problems with eD, i knew that when i started researching a driver purchase several years ago. I picked some flat cone 10O's anyway and really loved them. I've had their asphalt based deadener in my car for a 2 years in the Texas heat and it hasn't peeled. I've bought alot of their products and have yet to have any of it fail, and i can be pretty rough on equipment at times. It isn't the end all be of car audio, but i feel i definielt got my monies worth out of it all. I've dealt with their CS on a mis-shipped(i on't think that is an actual word) item and i was taken care of quickly and at no charge to myself. I realize that others have had different experiences than me, and it doesn't bother me that people who have had bad experiences share them. I've never felt like i had to defend eD, mainly because it isn't my company. If i went out of my way to only do business with companies that have never done anything to tarnish their reputations i wouldn't be able buy gas, shoes, clothes...

If you have had dealings with the company then you are going to have an opinion one way or the other, it's going to be biased. My dealings have all been good. 

Alot of people told me not to buy a Ford, but my Mustang has been super reliable.

[edit] ha ha, my spelling tonight is balls. 





Second Skin Rep said:


> In all fairness, It would probably be best for someone to invite Ben or another representative of ED to join this discussion.
> 
> They may be able to shed some light on a few of the concerns of our members.
> 
> ...


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

dogstar said:


> OK OK OK... I'll tell the supplier to send the parts


I wish you would, i got in on the first pre-order.


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

i am a member at icix. have been since day one. i have met ben , chris and alex in person. i am bias on a personal level simply because these guys are good people. they do love music and car audio as a passion. you spend a few days with people and you just cant fake that. very passionate to say the least... on to the business side...

i have sure seen the examples of people being upset and they as the consumer have every right to be upset and not support the product or the people. i can see that... they have made mistakes. everyone has seen them because they are made pretty damn public on the internet... a business that has grown from garage to a small tiny store front and from there to a pretty huge warehouse and cnc tooling in 6 years is doing something right! i can assure you that its not by them screwing people over or making people upset on purpose! its just simply impossible to keep every single customer happy and not have product failure or problems in qc occasionally... and that word occasionally becomes the big word here. a very small percentage of eD's customers are on the forums ... this i know so when a problem occurs with forum members who purchased the product and happend to get defective product or a bad apple , it becomes a huge issue. especially when it happend to what , maybe 50 people? ... on to the product.

its good ... for what it is!!!! a TINY portion of 12v consumers reside on the forums. most people just want to upgrade bass and speakers and not spend a **** ton of money!!!! not everyone is looking for pure muical bliss when adding music to a car... guys!!! EVERYONE on this forum has the addiction! WE want the BEST and most are looking for the best bang for thier buc... yes us guys and maybe 1 gal? lol are lucky to be able to get great deals on high end gear or buy stuff used for pennies on the dollar but your average joe blow doesn't have that luxury. joe blow just wants music... in business joe blow is the client i want. and thats who eD is perfect for! most of us know that there is BETTER stuff out there for sure and we are lucky to not have to pay retail or even close to it most of the time!!! 


you can get a real 1400 watt stereo with wire , sound deadening , components , amps and subs from eD for 1,000$ ... go to any store and try and get a real 1400 watt system for anywhere close to that in just equipment!!! if you can... ITS GARBAGE! eD fills a rather large niche if you ask me  its certainly not for everyone , but the people it is ... really enjoy it! 

they can run their forum however they wish ... i could care less. if you have a problem ... CALL THEM .. thats what they ask from everyone ! if they dont want warranty questions asked on the forum ... so be it... they own it  

i think i was unbias.


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

pete36 said:


> i am a member at icix. have been since day one. i have met ben , chris and alex in person. i am bias on a personal level simply because these guys are good people. they do love music and car audio as a passion. you spend a few days with people and you just cant fake that. very passionate to say the least... on to the business side...
> 
> i have sure seen the examples of people being upset and they as the consumer have every right to be upset and not support the product or the people. i can see that... they have made mistakes. everyone has seen them because they are made pretty damn public on the internet... a business that has grown from garage to a small tiny store front and from there to a pretty huge warehouse and cnc tooling in 6 years is doing something right! i can assure you that its not by them screwing people over or making people upset on purpose! its just simply impossible to keep every single customer happy and not have product failure or problems in qc occasionally... and that word occasionally becomes the big word here. a very small percentage of eD's customers are on the forums ... this i know so when a problem occurs with forum members who purchased the product and happend to get defective product or a bad apple , it becomes a huge issue. especially when it happend to what , maybe 50 people? ... on to the product.
> 
> ...


psh you're always bias. While they can run their forum how they wish I don't understand them ignoring any emails asking why the hell someone's banned. takes 2 seconds. Sure they are nice guys. Chris rocks. Talked to him a lot on both phone and im and I have never talked to the others. However, I don't like the lack of respect to respond to a simple email.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

pete36 said:


> i think i was unbias.


And I think I'm the next Pope.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

dawgdan said:


> And I think I'm the next Pope.


what? i thought that they didn't vote on that until the current pope died!? 
oh, wait, that was sarcasm....


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## pete36 (Jan 5, 2008)

dawgdan said:


> And I think I'm the next Pope.




sweet


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

pete36 said:


> sweet


Do I get to be the next pete3636?


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

Second Skin Rep said:


> In all fairness, It would probably be best for someone to invite Ben


I'd be afraid that he would IP ban us from this forum also.


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## haibane (Sep 29, 2005)

CMR22 said:


> I'd be afraid that he would IP ban us from this forum also.


agreed he would find some way


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

he's probably at home right now trying to figure out how to ban you from the whole intarwebz...or he doesn't care. One of the two


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

JayBee said:


> he's probably at home right now trying to figure out how to ban you from the whole intarwebz...or he doesn't care. One of the two


It would be ubercool if he could ban people the same way Darth Vader could choke people out when he was not even near them.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

CMR22 said:


> I'd be afraid that he would IP ban us from this forum also.


Pure gold.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

JayBee said:


> ... I've had their asphalt based deadener in my car for a 2 years in the Texas heat and it hasn't peeled...


That's actually a great example. All it proves it that either

It hasn't failed yet and the *third* summer seems to be the most common time for failure.
You are truly lucky and all of the VOCs have left the product leaving it even less effective than when new, but inert crud that won't damage your car.

As you may or may not recall, you had to discover that you were buying asphalt on your own - the Web site both overstated the mass/area by 25% and was meticulous in not mentioning the word asphalt, using "rubberized adhesive" while touting the product's ability to handle "high temperature" applications - a deceptive combination that hints at butyl.

If you, like many others, had a problem with the asphalt eDead we can be quite sure that the failure would have been blamed on user error. Since all of this can be countered - and has been by ED loyalists, it comes to this post on ECA in which Mr. Milne as kaosmoon explains to all of us idiots that the asphalt eDead was, in fact, butyl. This lie is particularly amusing (or galling depending on your perspective) when combined with this post on ICIX, at about the same time, wherein he explains that it isn't possible to get butyl mat for less than $5/ft² so all of the other businesses selling butyl (apparently including ED based on the ECA post) ARE LIARS!

Add up all of these items related to a single product and tell me what you get.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

Or...I'm just the luckiest person alive. I'll let you know after next summer. Everyone be sure to tune in next September for my "Is the edead dead?" thread. 



Rudeboy said:


> That's actually a great example. All it proves it that either
> 
> It hasn't failed yet and the *third* summer seems to be the most common time for failure.
> You are truly lucky and all of the VOCs have left the product leaving it even less effective than when new, but inert crud that won't damage your car.


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

The original eDead was pure ****. Lasted about 2 weeks in my car in TX before falling off. Replaced it with Dynamat Xtreme which never had a problem.


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## subbox77 (Jan 6, 2008)

I was originally drawn to ED when they had their old Flat cone subs and have one of the nine.2 amps that came with cdt hd62 clones for speakers amp works fine and the speakers are fine but I am not buying any more junk from them. Ben copycats everything they sell from others which is fine but don't say oh we retooled it to ours specs for our custumers BS. their site makes it look like they do all the design work in house ha what ever.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

You can take Ben and his facial hair out of the trailer, but you can't take the trailer...


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> That's actually a great example. All it proves it that either
> 
> It hasn't failed yet and the *third* summer seems to be the most common time for failure.
> You are truly lucky and all of the VOCs have left the product leaving it even less effective than when new, but inert crud that won't damage your car.
> ...


He's great at doing that. Test any of his drivers, and he will always find some excuse to sweep any unfavorable results under the rug.


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

No probs here with ED's sound deadening and 11Kv2's.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Just a small datum. 

Last summer I discovered eD's bespoke enclosure service. I decided to try it for the Ava18 I had just purchased. It was a pretty flexible design process. I specified dimensions (obviously), wall thickness (1" MDF all around, double baffle), shape (rectangular solid with rounded corners), bracing (a hoop brace and an orthogonal U-shaped brace), recesses (flush driver), terminal type (4-pole Speakon), and finish (I went with their truckbed liner, Odye or whatever), and so on.

What was delivered was exactly what I asked for. I think it came on time, though all I remember is that it arrived before the reconed Ava18 did. It was also constructed very tightly and looked clean inside and out. The cost including shipping was also considerably less than I would've been able to get similar quality for locally. I'd use their bespoke enclosure services again.

The only negative is that they didn't flush-mount the Speakon terminal on the back, as requested. The would-be negative had I specified it was that they also glued the Speakon terminal to the box, which made attaching the speaker leads very much not fun. But I didn't think to tell them otherwise, and it makes some sense to seal things up, so that's probably more my oversight than their bad.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

JayBee said:


> Or...I'm just the luckiest person alive. I'll let you know after next summer. Everyone be sure to tune in next September for my "Is the edead dead?" thread.


I had the same experience with Peel & Seal... lasted over 3 years for me. I sold the car to my cousin... now a couple more years later it is falling off as well as melting and oozing out to pool up in corners and stain carpet, etc.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

sundownz said:


> I had the same experience with Peel & Seal... lasted over 3 years for me. I sold the car to my cousin... now a couple more years later it is falling off as well as melting and oozing out to pool up in corners and stain carpet, etc.


Yep, I did under the reardech on my ladies car..
Open the trunk one day & its all just hanging down...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> Yep, I did under the reardech on my ladies car..
> Open the trunk one day & its all just hanging down...


That's actually a pretty good outcome - could have been much worse.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I'm not going to pick sides. I haven't bought anything from ED, so I can't comment on what the product is like, tech support, customer service, warranty returns, etc. But I also think that people online who bash the guy without any first hand experience shouldn't be surprised at some sort of reaction. A few things I'd point out:

1. For the most part, shipping back to the seller is paid by the person who buys the item unless it is DOA. That's pretty standard for products with the types of margin car audio stuff has and how much it weighs. Sure, Zappos can overnight you a pair of 2 pound shoes, but they have a different cost and margin model that can support that. With that said, someone who sends me something DOA and doesn't pay to have it shipped back will have a charge back on their hands. 

2. Who determines who "designed" something? If I order a pizza with Pepperoni, Pineapple and Onions and market it as a 4th of July pizza, is it my design? Aren't speakers pretty much the same thing? You take a spec to a build house and order it the way you want? 

3. Amplifiers seem to be the same thing. Lots of amps can be built with similar designs, variations, etc.

4. From my understanding of talking to A LOT of manufacturers, defective rates are pretty low (under 3%) for products they have manufacturered. Granted, they are dealing with some BIG build houses if they aren't doing the work themselves. Guess what ****s up that number? The DIY guy and the inexperience guy sending back product no problem found (I like to call those, RTFM (read the F-n manual)). From my experience working at an online retailer, you would be surprised how many people SWEAR they installed it right, only to have someone with a pretty nasty bench (o-scope, Audio Precision, signal generators, etc.) who does it for a living say that there isn't a problem. For the most part, the DIY crowd isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer (not the DIYMA group, just DIY in general). So of course, who gets blamed for bad product?

So while it seems like everyone KNOWS what is going on at ED, how many people have first hand experience in this thread? Without knowing how many customers he does have, how do you determine what is an unusual percentage of pissed off customers?

Juan


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> ... Guess what ****s up that number? The DIY guy and the inexperience guy sending back product no problem found (I like to call those, RTFM (read the F-n manual)). From my experience working at an online retailer, you would be surprised how many people SWEAR they installed it right, only to have someone with a pretty nasty bench (o-scope, Audio Precision, signal generators, etc.) who does it for a living say that there isn't a problem. For the most part, the DIY crowd isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer (not the DIYMA group, just DIY in general). So of course, who gets blamed for bad product?
> 
> So while it seems like everyone KNOWS what is going on at ED, how many people have first hand experience in this thread? Without knowing how many customers he does have, how do you determine what is an unusual percentage of pissed off customers?
> 
> Juan



haha you've got a point there.

I usualy always was good at "figuring things out" ...which half the time results in breaking something  ...

but with car audio I didn't want to be that guy. So I took the MECP 12v installers class...passed with a 96%...and have never looked back. it feels good to know what your doing most of the time now


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

Yeah Juan,
I know most of the customers are in High school
I have see some unGodly installs with some gear by a "DIYer"
that knew what he was doing..
I know you have aswell..
I had to checkout the eD gear just for the price..
Do you get what you pay for?
Some times..
I had a eD15k v1
It was a nice sub the 1st one was busted when i unpacked it..
the new one lasted 2years
I traded it for a 12k that I installed in my dads truck
it did ok for 1.5 or so..

I messed with the EU-700 for a bit the I just blew it up
eD.. its ok if you get a good one..

I also hear you on the "You Sold Me a Busted (Insert Product)"
That drives me crazy, what car you say but I told you we install
Sorry but you dont know WTF your doing..


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I'll take two large a side of hotwings and an antipasto salad/w banana peppers on the side.

What do i owe you for this chinese treat  
2. Who determines who "designed" something? If I order a pizza with Pepperoni, Pineapple and Onions and market it as a 4th of July pizza, is it my design? Aren't speakers pretty much the same thing? You take a spec to a build house and order it the way you want?


----------



## thrty8street (Jan 24, 2008)

what do you all think about their standard 5 year warranty? Doesnt that alone show that they stand behind their products?


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Warranty doesn't matter if people don't honor it. Chrysler has a lifetime warranty on the drive train.... not sure i would drive one though...

Juan


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## thrty8street (Jan 24, 2008)

OldOneEye said:


> Warranty doesn't matter if people don't honor it. Chrysler has a lifetime warranty on the drive train.... not sure i would drive one though...
> 
> Juan


Why wouldnt they honor it? Couldnt you take legal action if they didnt?


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I don't mean "they" as in ED, but in general. Woofers get abused, and some companies are OK with that, and others see abuse as not covered under warranty. So one companies abused is another companies under warranty.

Juan


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

thrty8street said:


> Why wouldnt they honor it? Couldnt you take legal action if they didnt?


Sure you could take legal action. The warranty fine print basically puts the ball in their court making legal action a long and arduous task.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> Sure you could take legal action. The warranty fine print basically puts the ball in their court making legal action a long and arduous task.


X2 
It just wouldnt be worth the time and effort over a $200 piece of equipment.


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## rockondon (Jan 18, 2008)

Scarry !!!! Acording to polls it looks like 1/3 bad reports. Mabey someone need to tell ED about this thread. So he can hopefully change his ways.
Muhaaa haa ha. NOT


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

I might just do that


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

They don't care. They'll just claim we're haters on this board.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

If we were really haters we would not even allow a thread that had their company name to be posted in this forum.
The fact that some people here gave ed a good rating shows how diverse we really are.

ANT


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

DIYMA said:


> If we were really haters we would not even allow a thread that had their company name to be posted in this forum.
> The fact that some people here gave ed a good rating shows how diverse we really are.
> 
> ANT


Yeah, I meant that is always their excuse. If someone has something negative to say, the cult calls them haters. Apparently, they don't believe anyone has a legitimate gripe.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

I understand.
I have had my run-ins with the cult. I think I am an honorary member of the blatent hate parade.

I have also had some dealings with Ben myself.
He called me once, pretending to be someone else..
When I called him on it, I told him that he should have introduced himself properly.
His reply? Thats not how I do things.. Thats not my style?

LOL.
Funny stuff...


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

DIYMA said:


> I understand.
> I have had my run-ins with the cult. I think I am an honorary member of the blatent hate parade.
> 
> I have also had some dealings with Ben myself.
> ...


And that sums up eD right there folks.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

DIYMA said:


> I understand.
> I have had my run-ins with the cult. I think I am an honorary member of the blatent hate parade.
> 
> I have also had some dealings with Ben myself.
> ...


That's hilarious! 

I got banned from ICIX because I had issues with their deadener, the mylar backing was peeling from the butyl. I said it in a mature manor, I didn't just say their stuff sucked ass, which it does.

Of course I got gang banged by the cult telling me that it wasn't the heat because it sticks just fine in Iowa, Minnesota and a few other places...like it's even remotely as hot there as it is in Phoenix.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

I had not voted before but I will add my name to the people who have had a poor experience with eD. First it was the eDead peeling and now the eNetic wire fiasco.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

89grand said:


> That's hilarious!
> 
> I got banned from ICIX because I had issues with their deadener, the mylar backing was peeling from the butyl. I said it in a mature manor, I didn't just say their stuff sucked ass, which it does.
> 
> Of course I got gang banged by the cult telling me that it wasn't the heat because it sticks just fine in Iowa, Minnesota and a few other places...like it's even remotely as hot there as it is in Phoenix.


Yup..
I think we have it the worst.
I always think it is funny when I hear people brag that their "insert brand vibration mat" wont ever fall of becuase it can deal with the heat of, Iowa, Arkansas, or Ohio...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

DIYMA said:


> Yup..
> I think we have it the worst.
> I always think it is funny when I hear people brag that their "insert brand vibration mat" wont ever fall of becuase it can deal with the heat of, Iowa, Arkansas, or Ohio...



Yeah, there's only a few places that are comparable to a Phoenix summer. Palm Springs and Las Vegas come to mind, but Iowa, Ohio, Minnesota, Arkansas, etc don't even come close.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

CMR22 said:


> I had not voted before but I will add my name to the people who have had a poor experience with eD. First it was the eDead peeling and now the eNetic wire fiasco.


Were you the guy that had some older eNetic to compare the clearance stuff with?


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

The thing about the voting is this: with quick math, there are 39 votes that are not customers.

I bought a 19ov2, it came with a shifted coil. The I got on the phone, talked to Ben. UPS was at my door the next morning to pick it up, and I had a new one 3 days later. That to me was great service. No money out of my pocket.

I am not a huge supporter of eD at all. I am a member over on ICIX. But all of the purchases I have made, most before I knew anything about the company, have been pleasant ones.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Arc said:


> The thing about the voting is this: with quick math, there are 39 votes that are not customers.
> 
> I bought a 19ov2, it came with a shifted coil. The I got on the phone, talked to Ben. UPS was at my door the next morning to pick it up, and I had a new one 3 days later. That to me was great service. No money out of my pocket.
> 
> I am not a huge supporter of eD at all. I am a member over on ICIX. But all of the purchases I have made, most before I knew anything about the company, have been pleasant ones.


Well, when I voted in the poll, I didn't realize at first there were two questions, so I only voted on my experience, I didn't vote on whether I was a customer or not.

I'm not used to seeing polls with more than 1 question. 

So, you view getting a defective sub, even though it was taken care of, pleasant?


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

89grand said:


> Yeah, there's only a few places that are comparable to a Phoenix summer. Palm Springs and Las Vegas come to mind, but Iowa, Ohio, Minnesota, Arkansas, etc don't even come close.


In Arkansas the Humidity is a ***** and stays around the 100% mark almost daily....not saying that Phoenix is not hot,but to think that Arkansas is a walk in the park July/August is just a little on the wrong side.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

unpredictableacts said:


> In Arkansas the Humidity is a ***** and stays around the 100% mark almost daily....not saying that Phoenix is not hot,but to think that Arkansas is a walk in the park July/August is just a little on the wrong side.


No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the sheer temperatures that deadener sees here in Phoenix (120 degrees at times, with the cars sheet metal reaching God knows what) far exceeds most places.

We're talking temperatures here, not humidity or how bad it feels outside.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

89grand said:


> No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the sheer temperatures that deadener sees here in Phoenix (120 degrees at times, with the cars sheet metal reaching God knows what) far exceeds most places.
> 
> We're talking temperatures here, not humidity or how bad it feels outside.


How are the electronics kept cool in that kind of heat ?

Do you have 12v fans to circulate air ?

What "special" extra stuff do you do for your particular heat problems ?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> How are the electronics kept cool in that kind of heat ?
> 
> Do you have 12v fans to circulate air ?
> 
> What "special" extra stuff do you do for your particular heat problems ?


I've never done anything any different. The only amp I've ever had that cycled on and off a few times thermally in the summer was on old Hifonics Pluto I ran many many years ago (I still have that amp today, but I don't use it).

My PPI Art series amps never shut off nor did my JBL's. Most audio equipment seems to be able to take the heat. Now ed's sound deadener on the other hand...


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

CMR22 said:


> I had not voted before but I will add my name to the people who have had a poor experience with eD. First it was the eDead peeling and now the eNetic wire fiasco.


I missed the wiring fiasco, what happened ?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

sundownz said:


> I missed the wiring fiasco, what happened ?


I wasn't involved, but they are selling power wire that is clearly undersized.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31168


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

89grand said:


> I wasn't involved, but they are selling power wire that is clearly undersized.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31168


After previously selling a decent product using exactly the same name. Documented here.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> After previously selling a decent product using exactly the same name. Documented here.


Ouch... thats pretty shady and/or careless.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

sundownz said:


> Ouch... thats pretty shady and/or careless.


Funny how often problems with them leave you wondering if they are dishonest or incompetent. My favorite was a blow up about eDead on CAF a few years ago where both ED reps and their supporters were arguing that it was incompetence. Priceless


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

89grand said:


> So, you view getting a defective sub, even though it was taken care of, pleasant?


In my situation it was. They didn't ruin it, or said it was a shipping issue not theirs. And I had a new one in 4 days. I was upset at first but with the reaction of eD they handled it well and made it better.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Arc said:


> In my situation it was. They didn't ruin it, or said it was a shipping issue not theirs. And I had a new one in 4 days. I was upset at first but with the reaction of eD they handled it well and made it better.


Of course it was a dead turtle painted to look like a sub...


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

I wonder how they stay in business.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

grampi said:


> I wonder how they stay in business.


More of their transactions are successful than not and there is a steady stream of new 16 year olds looking for entry level equipment. The cult isn't great at retention but it has a very strong recruiting system. I don't marvel so much at them staying in business, more at the huge pile of money they have left on the table because of all of the nonsense.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Ben can light his cuban cigars with hundred dollar bills


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## LauZaIM (Feb 20, 2008)

I think new people in the car audio scene should take threads like these with a grain of salt. The internet is known for the ******** it creates, one website should not influence your decision. Figure out what works best for your pricerange and get it. I'm somewhat new to car audio, it has become a recent obsession of mine. I used to be into custom pc's and modding them. In my opinion from the experience I've had from both types of DIY/Modding worlds, car audio has a LOT, and I mean a LOT, of complete and utter ******** flying around, just to get some money. This is mostly due to people getting sponsors and what not and saying their product is the best just to get stuff for free or discounted. The stupidity of some of the people on the car audio scene is just hilarious in my opinion.

I have done business with elemental designs. I got a 11kv.2 and I love it. Theres nothing wrong with it at all and the packaging was nice. I have noticed that a lot of people that are against certain products in the car audio world have actually never even used the product they are bashing. They just base their opinions on one person that has a really loud mouth and likes to exaggerate things for attention and thinks they must know everything. Or they base their opinions on what some sponsored forum member said.

Listen, posting a poll for a particular car audio brand is not going to give you an accurate result. Period. Because anybody can vote that they bought the product and vote it sucks, when in reality they are just bullshitting. Also, anybody can vote that they thought the product was awesome only because they got the product for free or have relations. 

In other words, this thread is worthless in the grand scheme of things, because nobody should trust someone to give an unbiased review on something like speakers.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

LauZaIM, Welcome to DIYMA  !

All good points to remember !


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

LauZaIM said:


> .... car audio has a LOT, and I mean a LOT, of complete and utter ******** flying around.....


very true.

kind of like home chicken's tempertantrum video being mad cause JL said they would take legal action if the guy sold copy cats of their W7.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

LauZaIM said:


> I think new people in the car audio scene should take threads like these with a grain of salt. The internet is known for the ******** it creates, one website should not influence your decision. Figure out what works best for your pricerange and get it. I'm somewhat new to car audio, it has become a recent obsession of mine. I used to be into custom pc's and modding them. In my opinion from the experience I've had from both types of DIY/Modding worlds, car audio has a LOT, and I mean a LOT, of complete and utter ******** flying around, just to get some money. This is mostly due to people getting sponsors and what not and saying their product is the best just to get stuff for free or discounted. The stupidity of some of the people on the car audio scene is just hilarious in my opinion.
> 
> I have done business with elemental designs. I got a 11kv.2 and I love it. Theres nothing wrong with it at all and the packaging was nice. I have noticed that a lot of people that are against certain products in the car audio world have actually never even used the product they are bashing. They just base their opinions on one person that has a really loud mouth and likes to exaggerate things for attention and thinks they must know everything. Or they base their opinions on what some sponsored forum member said.
> 
> ...


Awesome first post and the overuse of the word "********". One of the problems with your theory however is that the people who voted have their names included in the poll. Since you are new here, feel free to search the names and you can find the problems they had with eD products.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Uhhhh....there's enough documented proof as to ed's problems that this thread alone is not what drives people away from them. Pictures of undersized wire being passed off as being larger, sound deadener that's total **** etc. And yes, I used their deadener, that's how I know it sucks.

That's also part of the beauty of the internet, everybody doesn't have to get burned in order to find out if some company or thing has problems. Sure, I wouldn't take one persons word, but ed is mentioned a lot, for good reason.

Notice how you don't see polls like this about JL Audio, Alpine, JBL, Pioneer, RE Audio, Boston, TC Sounds, Rockford, etc!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

LauZaIM said:


> In other words, this thread is worthless in the grand scheme of things, because nobody should trust someone to give an unbiased review on something like speakers.


So you are new to this market and have chosen for your first post a pronouncement on how things fit into the grand scheme of things? I'm a presumptuous prick, but I doubt even I would go that far. Nobody has suggested that this thread/poll is scientific in any way, so thank you for pointing out the obvious. What you will notice after some time on forums like this is that threads about problems with ED are frequent, constant and surprising specific. Dismissing them as ******** is a mistake. Using PC forums as your reference for objectivity may be contributing to your confusion.

ED obviously has more successful transactions than not - otherwise they wouldn't still be around. For a a small company, they have an interestingly large number of dissatisfied customers. For example, a problem with their eNetic power cable has appeared on this board after this thread was started. It's not a great idea to conclude that large numbers of people are full of **** because they had a good experience. Don't put too much stock in the irrational hatred explanation being pushed from the hive.


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## CHH777 (Apr 20, 2006)

LauZaIM said:


> ...I have noticed that a lot of people that are against certain products in the car audio world have actually never even used the product they are bashing....


Sad but true. Additionally, I have had numerous people give rave reviews for a product only to admint later they never actually heard it themselves.

Welcome, BTW.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

Wow.
Talk about being split right down the middle!
As I write the reply, the poll show


awesome 16
good 25
decent 33
poor 25 
disgusting 16

I dont thing there could be a more average rating out there.

ANT


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> So you are new to this market and have chosen for your first post a pronouncement on how things fit into the grand scheme of things? I'm a presumptuous prick, but I doubt even I would go that far. Nobody has suggested that this thread/poll is scientific in any way, so thank you for pointing out the obvious. What you will notice after some time on forums like this is that threads about problems with ED are frequent, constant and surprising specific. Dismissing them as ******** is a mistake. Using PC forums as your reference for objectivity may be contributing to your confusion.
> 
> ED obviously has more successful transactions than not - otherwise they wouldn't still be around. For a a small company, they have an interestingly large number of dissatisfied customers. For example, a problem with their eNetic power cable has appeared on this board after this thread was started. It's not a great idea to conclude that large numbers of people are full of **** because they had a good experience. Don't put too much stock in the irrational hatred explanation being pushed from the hive.


How did it test out ?


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

DIYMA said:


> Wow.
> Talk about being split right down the middle!
> As I write the reply, the poll show
> 
> ...


Honestly, i think that even a company that is just 'average' or just does 'alright' should at least have 80% of their customers saying things went flawlessly or at least well.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Let's see how well they are doing now - only a few more needed to chip in for shipping to get a 13 AV.2 to npang for testing!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

what will the testing cover ?


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## audiorailroad (Mar 6, 2007)

all i can say is my decesion to buy 2 9kv's is they are 20 miles from my front door. my choice was narrowed down to ED and image dynamics for 8"s. if i had a problem they were rite down the road and i could look them in the eye. i did have a problem with overexcursion and smashed the bottom of the spider against the top plate which resulted in a shorted voicecoil but that was replaced with a new sub. they claim 300 watts power handling but i ran out of excursion with 2 9's powered by a soundstream ref 500 runnin 4 ohm mono. so i guess my problem was my fault. but all i would buy from them is subs. i'm not impressed with any of their mids or tweets and their amps un my mind are only ok. and i htink 89grand whines way too much. he also had problems with the diyma subs that i think were self induced.


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## dftnz7 (Mar 2, 2008)

I think the whole thing with ED has been so blown out of proportion it is ridiculous. It has gotten to the point where ED hating is so cool that I actually believe people make up horror stories just to be part of the "wronged group". A lot of people also have no experience with the company and still hate them without just cause.

I have never bought anything from them, so I can't comment from firsthand experience. I have, however, been very interested in several of their products, and they have always responded either via email or answered the phone and answered me very promptly, courteously, and professionally. 

In my experience, if you have been wronged, let your wallet do the talking and don't buy from them any more. If you haven't been wronged, keep your mouth shut because you have no business giving a true commentary on the subject. Those who are considering their product, just use your best judgment.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

dftnz7 said:


> I think the whole thing with ED has been so blown out of proportion it is ridiculous. It has gotten to the point where ED hating is so cool that I actually believe people make up horror stories just to be part of the "wronged group". A lot of people also have no experience with the company and still hate them without just cause.
> 
> I have never bought anything from them, so I can't comment from firsthand experience. I have, however, been very interested in several of their products, and they have always responded either via email or answered the phone and answered me very promptly, courteously, and professionally.
> 
> In my experience, if you have been wronged, let your wallet do the talking and don't buy from them any more. If you haven't been wronged, keep your mouth shut because you have no business giving a true commentary on the subject. Those who are considering their product, just use your best judgment.


Examples, please.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Examples, please.


companies go out of business if you don't buy their product.... ed is expanding... so how are they a horrible company? they obviously make a product that is good more than it is bad, or it wouldn't expand.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

spl152db said:


> companies go out of business if you don't buy their product.... ed is expanding... so how are they a horrible company? they obviously make a product that is good more than it is bad, or it wouldn't expand.


I meant examples of people who were fabricating negative stories to get in on the "cool ED hating". How do you know that a privately held company is expanding? Milne says he is letting people go. Doesn't prove or disprove any of the problems people are reporting and I if you look back through the posts I have made on this subject, I explicitly say that they obviously have have more successful transactions than not.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I meant examples of people who were fabricating negative stories to get in on the "cool ED hating". How do you know that a privately held company is expanding? Milne says he is letting people go. Doesn't prove or disprove any of the problems people are reporting and I if you look back through the posts I have made on this subject, I explicitly say that they obviously have have more successful transactions than not.


oh, well i didn't feel like reading 17 pages. and the blog says they are looking for a new warehouse building or something. thats expanding i think. i dunno, they're moving towards home theater more than car audio, they'll still carry subs, cause they produce them for home and car, BUT i don't see them doing much with car audio anymore.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

spl152db said:


> oh, well i didn't feel like reading 17 pages. and the blog says they are looking for a new warehouse building or something. thats expanding i think. i dunno, they're moving towards home theater more than car audio, they'll still carry subs, cause they produce them for home and car, BUT i don't see them doing much with car audio anymore.


Maybe next time you will read the threads you want to in. If you read leaving the market that you have a name in a success, then good for you. ICIX is the place to post ED praise without substantiation and with no risk of being called on it.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Maybe next time you will read the threads you want to in. If you read leaving the market that you have a name in a success, then good for you. ICIX is the place to post ED praise without substantiation and with no risk of being called on it.


who said i was singing praise? who said i was bashing? and really how are you to moderate what im saying? its like you can't say good things about a company here... unless they charge $50 per watt or $1000 per sub....

that and my comments had to do with the last few posts, not the whole thread.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

spl152db said:


> who said i was singing praise? who said i was bashing? and really how are you to moderate what im saying? its like you can't say good things about a company here... unless they charge $50 per watt or $1000 per sub....


You were criticizing your take on a thread you hadn't read and somehow felt compelled to insert some love for ED. Want a cookie? As to your last statement, it seems pretty clear you have no idea where you are. If you had bothered to read the thread before posting, you would have noticed that not a single person was complaining about ED not charging enough, or even that their products weren't "high-end" enough. Not what it's about at all. You're the one who quoted me, don't act all hurt when it elicits a response.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> You were criticizing your take on a thread you hadn't read and somehow felt compelled to insert some love for ED. Want a cookie? As to your last statement, it seems pretty clear you have no idea where you are. If you had bothered to read the thread before posting, you would have noticed that not a single person was complaining about ED not charging enough, or even that their products weren't "high-end" enough. Not what it's about at all. You're the one who quoted me, don't act all hurt when it elicits a response.


quote. where was the love for ed that i inserted? show it to me. and really my posts were on topic and then you derailed it with your stupid comment about how i need to go over to icix to sing praise about eD.


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## dftnz7 (Mar 2, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Examples, please.



Specifically speaking, on another board, in a thread about different subs in which someone brought up ED, a poster repeatedly bashed ED and when prompted for his reason for hating them so much, gave an example something along the lines of this: 

"I bought an E12A right when they first came out and sent my money to ED. I never got confirmation and I called and they said it would ship soon. Well a couple weeks went by and it never came so I called again and they said they were out of the subs for a few weeks and said to sit tight. Finally I got the sub and it worked okay but I cracked the cone, and they wouldn't warranty it so that's why I hate ED...BEN MILNES A DOUCHE..."

Literally a few hours later when I was browsing through one of those threads about "Name all the car audio stuff you have ever had" or something like that and the same poster listed all the stuff he had since he *started in car audio when he got his driver's license in 2005.* Oddly, the E12A was not listed in his audio stuff, and, if I remember correctly, it came out in 2003, 2 full years before he even had a car to put it in. I don't have a link for this nor do I care to find it to futilely lay your ED induced anger to rest.

Like I said, I am neutral on this topic. I am not going to jump on anyone's hate bandwagon if they have done me no wrong. ED has done me no wrong, so I am not going to bash them. But all the bad press certainly has weighed on my mind when thinking of purchasing anything from them. 

It is almost like these responses about why people hate ED so much are cut and pasted from thread to thread and board to board....It just seems to me personally that a lot of people are just parroting actual users of ED products that did have some problems in the early days. Maybe they aren't, in which case the problems over at ED are even worse than anyone realizes, but I find that hard to believe when you also see a lot of positive responses (which are promptly pooh poohed and trashed by the ED haters) that deal with the same type of customer service issues. Seems strange that they would blatantly lie and cheat one guy then treat the next guy great. There are always 2 sides to every story.


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## dvflyer (May 11, 2007)

I know a few people who use their products and are very happy with them. I do not like the way they run their forum, but it is their forum so I can either hang there or not.


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## chozar (Feb 14, 2008)

FWIW, I just ordered and received the NINe.5 after the blowout sale.

Despite the rush of sales, it arrived very quickly, in great condition.
I had a question, emailed them, and it was answered right away.

Rest of the install has to commence before the amp goes in, and I can hear it, but so far they have serviced me well.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

dftnz7 said:


> Specifically speaking, on another board, in a thread about different subs in which someone brought up ED, a poster repeatedly bashed ED and when prompted for his reason for hating them so much, gave an example something along the lines of this:
> 
> "I bought an E12A right when they first came out and sent my money to ED. I never got confirmation and I called and they said it would ship soon. Well a couple weeks went by and it never came so I called again and they said they were out of the subs for a few weeks and said to sit tight. Finally I got the sub and it worked okay but I cracked the cone, and they wouldn't warranty it so that's why I hate ED...BEN MILNES A DOUCHE..."
> 
> ...


Right, so one possible example of your claim. Phrases like "hate bandwagon" are far from neutral. It's amazing that you would just happen to use the phrase that Mr. Milne uses to dismiss all criticism. Do what you like. All I've done is document some facts. All you've done is talk - a contribution with exactly the same value as what you alleged but couldn't document - references to other threads on other forums not withstanding.


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## wanarace (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, here are my two cents as NOOB.

I am running a 13Kv.2 being pushed by a NINe.2. All of this was bought as B-stock so I had had nothing to lose for the price I got it for. I have been very satisfied with the performance of this setup. After a year and a half I have never had a hiccup, the system is still going strong. I have no problem with using ED again in the future. 

I have had some bad luck with equipment in the past. Blew up a 12" Kicker CompVR that was being pushed by half of it's rated RMS. An old entry level RF sub suffered the same fate. I had to have a JBL P80.4 fixed numerous times because different components kept failing, it's a paperweight now. 

So do I hate Kicker, RF or JBL? No. I understand that sometimes you get a lemon. It sucks, but it happens. How a company deals with it's lemons shows a lot about the company. Unfortunately it seems some people have had bad experiences with ED lemons, while others have had no problems. I will continue to use ED until they give me a reason not too. 

The bad part with forums is nobody ever gets the whole story. You only get one side, no matter how hard you may try to provide an ambiguous view, it's still your view. It's like the guy who bitches and moans that his new 70K Escalade rides like crap and the transmission won't shift right. He goes back to the dealership and they tell him there is nothing they can do. He's pissed, gets on the web and tells the whole world how Jim Smith Cadillac is the worst dealership ever, and Cadillac sucks, and GM won't help. He swears he will never buy another GM product again. Some people will be sympathetic to his situation and agree that GM is in the wrong and give there own horror story. And at the end of the day the guy evens feels a little better knowing he is not the only one. The thing is, through out this whole ordeal nobody ever asked or was it mentioned, that the guy bought the truck 26's and 30 series tires. A little detail he may have left out, but he goes from martyr to moron. 

Just seems like the angry people are always the loudest, and it's tough make a decision based on their experience, because you never have the entire story.

I am one of the happy people saying that ED provided me a good product for a price i wanted to pay, and I will use them again. 

Steve


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Because one person jumped on the eD hate _bandwagon_ with a sketchy story, the rest have no merit. Sounds like the same logic you seem to be arguing against.


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

I have a feeling the Elemental Designs drama will continue for as long as the company is around. 


Some of the people who were wronged years ago have vowed never to rest until the company is out of business. Since some of these people are active posters on big forums, they get "groupies" that will spread the word without firsthand experience. If anyone has ever stopped by their shop, or gone out for one of the annual ICIX meets, they will know that all the guys there are very nice, and really fun to hang out with. This has built them an extremely loyal fan base. Combine that with a large group of people who like getting decent equipment at a very good price that will be vocal in defense of the company, and you have an argument that will last forever.


Personally, I have had very good luck with all my gear from them, including the old asphalt based edead v1se, EU700's, nine.1, nine.2, nine.2x, nine.4, nine.5, 13kv.2's, 13ov.2's, 13av.2, and 19ov.2s...not to mention the HT stuff). No company is perfect, I had minor issues with some of it (like a 19ov.2 damaged in shipping and some issues with my install that they did) and they were all quickly resolved and professionally.


When you are a web based business you will end up with a higher percentage of customers who are active on internet forums. This does not mean they have any more complaints per customer than a company like Rockford Fosgate or Memphis or Treo, it just means you will see more of them on internet forums.


I think the first post in this thread is funny. It was clearly trying to start this exact discussion. If you want to see what people think about Elemental Designs search any car audio forum, even ICIX (yes, believe it or not, there are posts there that are not all sunshine and rainbows regarding eD) and you will find dozens of posts that all go exactly like this one. Some people vehemently despise the company, others follow it blindly, others still form an opinion based on personal experiences, some positive, some negative. The people who hate the company blindly will discount anything positive about the company anyone has to say. The people who follow eD blindly discount anything negative about the company anyone has to say. The people who form their opinion rationally get lost in the middle of the argument and end up trying to talk sense into the others. It is an excercise in futility. 


If you have never dealt with them and their products fit your needs, give it a shot. You might find, like I did, that they are a bunch of good guys, with above average gear at great prices with a great warranty.


<edit>
Also the poll results can be a bit misleading. Out of the 19 votes for "Disgusting" only 8 of those marked that they were previous eD customers. The other 11 did not mark one way or the other if they were or were not. Anothe 2-3 of those who voted "Disgusting" also voted "Poor", which also skews the curve to the negative. I did not have time to check to see about those who voted "Awesome" and what customer status they chose. If I get some more time later I will do that.
</edit>


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

notacop said:


> I have a feeling the Elemental Designs drama will continue for as long as the company is around.


That's the: "All of the problems were in the past" argument, usually paired with the "It's only the irrational Internet hate parade" canard. In reality, something comes along every few months. Most recently it was the eNetic wire sale bait and switch, followed by the inevitable disappointment. That one was particularly galling since I went out of my way to demonstrate the quality of the eNetic I had experience with. Before that it was the eDead v1² fiasco. It's certainly not just some anomalous past behavior that people are making careers out of keeping alive.

I completely agree that Chris seems like a very nice guy. Some of the others may be as well, but they work for a company that is headed up by a person who, for whatever reason, when given the choice between saying nothing and being deceptive, chooses the the latter way too often. I'm not going to bother linking to all of the dishonest posts Mr. Milne has made, but when a person repeatedly demonstrates a willingness to put lies down in writing, they're not somebody who I will "give a shot". Beyond the frequent, obvious lies, his apparent compulsion to exaggerate his and ED's capabilities as designers, manufacturers, etc., put many people off. If they simply said they imported decent products, sold them at reasonable prices and backed them with a good warranty, they wouldn't seem as ridiculous as they often do.

I wish only the best for everybody who deals with ED. I don't know of anybody who has tried harder to give them the benefit of the doubt than I have - not blind love, but I didn't let my belief that their deadening products consistently suck lead me to believe that everything they sold was junk. Being open minded earned me personal attacks and more dishonesty. 

If people feel that ED products fit their needs, great, but let's not leave anybody with the misapprehension that they are more than merchants with a long history of problems. I think the drama is the only thing that keeps them in business. I'm really sick of this topic, but whenever somebody feels the need to dismiss the negative perceptions as irrational, I feel motivated to set the record straight. People may be interested in comparing the positive reactions which tend to follow the "great guys, had good luck with them" theme to many of the negatives that document actual malfeasance. This isn't to say that some of the hatred isn't over the top and that some of the love isn't equally irrational. Just as many people are almost certainly pleased with their purchases, many others are reasonably disgusted with their experiences. Writing off either is unfair. As to groupies, I've seen much more evidence supporting that sort of adoration aimed at the "friends at ED" than at anonymous people on the Web.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*In the end, this topic will always be here because both sides are growing, the 'I've been screwed or wronged / my good friend was' and the 'My eD stuff has not broken yet so I am going to not believe the problems other people are having, or don't really care'. My most recent thing that is questionable is the "new" HAXO drivers that are almost exact copies of Crystal Comp's and CompX2's, but that is totally avoided in the info released about them. Oh well, I hope I did not just extend this topic farther.*


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

denim said:


> *In the end, this topic will always be here because both sides are growing, the 'I've been screwed or wronged / my good friend was' and the 'My eD stuff has not broken yet so I am going to not believe the problems other people are having, or don't really care'. My most recent thing that is questionable is the "new" HAXO drivers that are almost exact copies of Crystal Comp's and CompX2's, but that is totally avoided in the info released about them. Oh well, I hope I did not just extend this topic farther.*


Are all those parts off the shelf? Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying they look alike or you have seen all the specs and they are alike?

Juan


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*I believe devildriver searched and found the T/S parameters match up.....*


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> If people feel that ED products fit their needs, great, but let's not leave anybody with the misapprehension that they are more than merchants with a long history of problems. I think the drama is the only thing that keeps them in business. I'm really sick of this topic, but whenever somebody feels the need to dismiss the negative perceptions as irrational, I feel motivated to set the record straight. People may be interested in comparing the positive reactions which tend to follow the "great guys, had good luck with them" theme to many of the negatives that document actual malfeasance. This isn't to say that some of the hatred isn't over the top and that some of the love isn't equally irrational. Just as many people are almost certainly pleased with their purchases, many others are reasonably disgusted with their experiences. Writing off either is unfair. As to groupies, I've seen much more evidence supporting that sort of adoration aimed at the "friends at ED" than at anonymous people on the Web.




I don't mean to imply that all problems were in the past, or that there are no new problems at all.


I have seen all the posts you would link to. I agree some are deceptive. 


There are 2 sides to every story. You are one who can see both sides, and you have experienced firsthand enough to convince you not to do business with them. I can respect that. You formed your opinion rationally. I think some of the backlash you got was that the original tests came across as having a built in bias against eD, whether it was only percieved or if it was actual. This caused it to be dismissed as the so called "hate parade". 


You are not one that I would consider as one who blindly hates the company. Just as I don't consider myself as one who blindly follows. However there are plenty of people who fall into both categories.

You have as many rational reasons to be against the company as I have to be for the company.


It is because there is such a balance of pro and con, both rational and blind that this debate (or argument at times) will continue until either the company goes under, gets bought out or the internet goes away.


As it sits right now, none of those seem very likely.


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## SQCherokee (Mar 5, 2008)

seems to be an interesting mix of issues. 

most seem to stem from quality issues that are hard to resolve.

Could it be like with any company that there may be just one guy on the assembly line who isn't doing quality work? Yet no ones noticed it yet?

I used to work in manufacturing making hydraulic pumps...and one guy was halfassing alot of his work...and it wasn't untill they computerized the inventory that they were able to trace the problem parts back to his poor work.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

notacop said:


> stuff


hey! sorry to get off-topic, but just noticed you're from springfield. i'm your neighbor to the north in bloomington. i was under the misguided impression that quality car audio was all but extinct in central illinois.

cheers!
- ben


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

notacop said:


> I think some of the backlash you got was that the original tests came across as having a built in bias against eD, whether it was only percieved or if it was actual. This caused it to be dismissed as the so called "hate parade".


Not to be argumentative, but I'd love to see a single piece of evidence to support that. I treated the asphalt eDead exactly the same way I treated the other Peel & Seal type products. At the time I created SDS, I had absolutely no feelings one way or the other toward ED, except that I was considering them for amps.

The only way I singled them out was for claiming 25% more mass/ft² than was true. Despite 3 attempts on my part to notify ED of the "errors" via e-mail, and their assurance each time that it would be corrected, the Web site was never updated, until a year passed and they changed to the new stuff, at which time they dropped that spec alltogther - the single most important metric for comparing value. 

Finally in a blow up on CAF, initiated by my complaining asbout them perverting the SDS heat tests to imply superior heat tolerance results, Mandos insisted the errors in weight were the result of him weighing the stuff in the box, on the core on a broken bathroom scale. Somehow this resulted in even numbers for both grades that equaled the specs for butyl based competitors. ED's reaction and the vehement reactions of their fans were the first evidence I had that there was anything unusual going on there. ED has made it a habit to claim bias whenever they are presented with documented, hard numbers that they don't like. If calling attention to fraud is bias, then I am guilty.


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> Not to be argumentative, but I'd love to see a single piece of evidence to support that. I treated the asphalt eDead exactly the same way I treated the other Peel & Seal type products. At the time I created SDS, I had absolutely no feelings one way or the other toward ED, except that I was considering them for amps.
> 
> The only way I singled them out was for claiming 25% more mass/ft² than was true. Despite 3 attempts on my part to notify ED of the "errors" via e-mail, and their assurance each time that it would be corrected, the Web site was never updated, until a year passed and they changed to the new stuff, at which time they dropped that spec alltogther - the single most important metric for comparing value.
> 
> Finally in a blow up on CAF, initiated by my complaining asbout them perverting the SDS heat tests to imply superior heat tolerance results, Mandos insisted the errors in weight were the result of him weighing the stuff in the box, on the core on a broken bathroom scale. Somehow this resulted in even numbers for both grades that equaled the specs for butyl based competitors. ED's reaction and the vehement reactions of their fans were the first evidence I had that there was anything unusual going on there. ED has made it a habit to claim bias whenever they are presented with documented, hard numbers that they don't like. If calling attention to fraud is bias, then I am guilty.


I agree completely that the testing itself was not biased. 

I don't remember the exact wording, and I am not sure if it was the original SDS or if it was a later test of their newer stuff, but I recall wording on the site that seemed to act as if failure was par for the course with eDead, why expect anything else. This made it seem (at least to me) that those tests were not impartial and that you went in with a pre-conceived notion of what would happen. 


I am not trying to attack you or your methodology. I read your original SDS before I bought deadener about 3 years ago. 


Please don't think that just because I am an eD supporter and that I am active on ICIX that I have anything against you. The fact that your negativity against the company includes facts and references puts you heads and shoulders above most of the other vocal detractors.


<edit>
Ok, I made a mistake. I was confusing you and your original SDS with a review of edead UE posted on another forum:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=208026
So it was not a bias by you that I was thinking of. I apologize for the mistake. I also think that when Ben got upset about testing methodologies in this post, he was directing most of that to the post on talkaudio, not towards you and the original SDS. Of course I could be completely wrong. It does happen from time to time 
</edit>


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

notacop said:


> I agree completely that the testing itself was not biased.
> 
> I don't remember the exact wording, and I am not sure if it was the original SDS or if it was a later test of their newer stuff, but I recall wording on the site that seemed to act as if failure was par for the course with eDead, why expect anything else. This made it seem (at least to me) that those tests were not impartial and that you went in with a pre-conceived notion of what would happen.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about it - the copy hasn't changed so maybe somebody who has read it more recently than I will know what you are referring to. The only thing I can think of is the bit were I say something like:

eDead is butyl
No it's not, please stop saying that.

and that what was a direct response to Ben Milne explicityly states on ECA that the old eDead was butyl when he had to know he was flat out lying. I defy anyone to substantiate ANY of the claims he makes in this childish harangue in which he makes several outrageous claims that are completely false. I absolutely believe that Ben Milne has completely fabricated the idea of ED bias on my part and continues to do so because it is easier than developing a decent product. He's moved from ineffective and unreliable to ineffective and dangerous and unreliable when it comes to v1². Oh well.


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

I found my error and edited my post (even linked the same ICIX post you did) 


Sorry for the confusion.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

notacop said:


> I found my error and edited my post (even linked the same ICIX post you did)
> 
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.


I agree that the thread you linked to, while not done by Second Skin, was almost exactly like what ED did with their video impersonating my test. I've never claimed any great reliability in what I did, but I do claim to have done everything I could to treat every product the same way - if I was off by 5 degrees either way, each product was exposed to same inaccuracy. I complained about frootloops review too - if you set out to prove a point, you shouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

I'm pretty sure that the ICIX thread we have both linked to was about me since it was started by regal1975 after he and I got into it here. I posted a response on CAF and Mandos and I corresponded while that thread dragged itself out. I'm pretty sure he would have just told me that it wasn't about me if that had been the case.

It's not a big deal and I HAVE been very critical of UE and the other eDeads. I'm more than willing to change my position if anybody can show me where I'm wrong, but nobody has suggested anything but that foil is critical to CLVED performance. You've been an extremely reasonable debating partner


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> You've been an extremely reasonable debating partner




Thank you 


I definitely can see why you are critical of the eDead products, and I can't offer anything to counteract your testing, other than to say that the V1SE and V3 I used in my Scion all worked as it was supposed to, except for a couple pieces way up inside the door panels where I could not apply proper pressure and could not ensure I got out all bubbles. Also all the UE and V4 in my Honda has all held up fine for the 10 months or so I have had it. 

Far from scientific evidence on my part, so I do not expect it to sway your conclusions at all.



Glad you could remain reasonable in the debate as well. Nothing is as frustrating of being blamed for blind devotion when you try to remain open-minded. I am sure you can relate


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

If the owner of a business lies to me, he never gets my business. Period.

I don't care how great any customers' experiences have been--they are supporting a dishonest business, and they deserve to be ridiculed for it.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

notacop said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> I definitely can see why you are critical of the eDead products, and I can't offer anything to counteract your testing, other than to say that the V1SE and V3 I used in my Scion all worked as it was supposed to, except for a couple pieces way up inside the door panels where I could not apply proper pressure and could not ensure I got out all bubbles. Also all the UE and V4 in my Honda has all held up fine for the 10 months or so I have had it.
> ...


My criticism of the new eDeads doesn't relate to durability, except for the v1² which has easily reproducible problems. It really has to do with the decision to use Mylar instead of aluminum foil. An important component of vibration damping occurs a the interface between the adhesive and the constraining layer. Mylar is much to flexible to provide any constraint at all. To the extent that these products perform as barriers, that function is also severely compromised by the choice to save a penny or two per ft². To some extent, applying liquid on top mitigates that deficiency, but water based liquids like v3 do not adhere well to plastic. That is why ED suggests applying their liquid first and then mat on top of it - an arrangement that only compensates for product design deficiencies but otherwise is the opposite of what makes any sense. My final concern about the mats is that butyl is inflammable - pretty dramitaclly so. A foil facing is very effective at snuffing out a fire. Mylar really isn't.

The v3 liquids aren't terrible - they are a dated formula, but not terrible. The problem I see is a very high water content. This makes it feasible to sell them for a lower price per gallon, but actually makes them a relatively poor value per volume and mass of cured material - all you really care about. My only complaint about the v4 is that I don't trust a PSA to work as well as a contact adhesive and I don't understand the stated refusal to say what the material is or to provide complete specs. Seems silly. What's the secret?


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> My criticism of the new eDeads doesn't relate to durability, except for the v1² which has easily reproducible problems. It really has to do with the decision to use Mylar instead of aluminum foil. An important component of vibration damping occurs a the interface between the adhesive and the constraining layer. Mylar is much to flexible to provide any constraint at all. To the extent that these products perform as barriers, that function is also severely compromised by the choice to save a penny or two per ft². To some extent, applying liquid on top mitigates that deficiency, but water based liquids like v3 do not adhere well to plastic. That is why ED suggests applying their liquid first and then mat on top of it - an arrangement that only compensates for product design deficiencies but otherwise is the opposite of what makes any sense. My final concern about the mats is that butyl is inflammable - pretty dramitaclly so. A foil facing is very effective at snuffing out a fire. Mylar really isn't.
> 
> The v3 liquids aren't terrible - they are a dated formula, but not terrible. The problem I see is a very high water content. This makes it feasible to sell them for a lower price per gallon, but actually makes them a relatively poor value per volume and mass of cured material - all you really care about. My only complaint about the v4 is that I don't trust a PSA to work as well as a contact adhesive and I don't understand the stated refusal to say what the material is or to provide complete specs. Seems silly. What's the secret?



All valid points for sure.

I guess with the UE the question is which is more effective, a much thicker butyl layer with a less effective "facing layer" or a standard butyl layer with a properly matched aluminum layer? Either way, the UE is more than effective for my needs in my application, so it was well suited for my purposes. 

Fire retardation in door panels is pretty low on my priorities. There is next to nothing in those doors that can or will start a fire, the trunk is a little different, but still of minor concern. Most cars go up so fast when they catch fire than in the 2-5 minutes it takes for firefighters to respond the car is totalled anywya. If if my car catches on fire, let it burn to the ground, that way I get a new one courtesy of my insurance. If I get a small smouldering fire, my car will smell like smoke for the rest of its life, even after the trunk trim or door panels are replaced. 


As long as it does not explode and take me with it, I am cool with it


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

ED used to be awesome back when they where bargain priced...

now that they have become "popular" they are no longer an option I really keep open.


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## bigjae1976 (Jun 21, 2007)

I'm not an eD fan. From what I saw, their stuff wasn't original or ground breaking. But they do have good prices compared to their competitors.

Seems like you have to love or hate eD.

From looking at their amp guts though, I can think of quite a few companies with much better stuff.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

illnastyimpreza said:


> ED used to be awesome back when they where bargain priced...
> 
> now that they have become "popular" they are no longer an option I really keep open.


When they were bargain priced is when the first huge batch of problems started surfacing...don't know if I'd call that awesome.


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## 98 SNAKE EATER (Mar 19, 2008)

I think they make good products _for the money_  

My first eD sub was an old K series 10 that I bought based on looks alone :blush: 

I wanted an OEM appearance and was actually surprised at how well it sounded  




























More recently, I picked up a 9Kv.2 (8") for the daily beater and had them build a custom enclosure....

Made the order for the enclosure back in January and they warned me that it might take 2-3 weeks to build due to back-ups in the woodshop...

I went ahead with it and it took longer than we anticipated cause it didn't show up until last week  



































To top things off, they made a mistake with the build by adding a wiring block to the top of it, even though I made it clear that I didn't want one because it was meant to be a downfire  

Called them up and they built me another box on the spot (now in the mail) and told me to keep the first one  

Not bad for customer service  





*98 Aztek T/A WS7*
*70 Ram Air IV T/A*
*97 FZJ80 Locked*
*00 Lifted G16E*
*GhettoChopper*


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Milne talks about leaving ED. Seems strange since I understood him to be the owner of the company. Pretty funny if they need to disassociate him from the company for PR reasons.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Sounds like he's going to start a Select Products of sorts...just what we need out of Milne


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## BrokenBC (Aug 12, 2007)

He's been talking about being around less for quite a while now... I keep waiting for it to happen.

I don't get it though... based on blogs and his personality on ICIX... he doesn't seem to be rich. I'd guess that eD sells over a million a year though. They must have low profit margins.


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

Even if their margins are good, he is reinvesting all the income back into the company. He lives pretty modestly from what I have seen (stayed at his place a couple times). 

He is not bailing on the company, just taking a step back from the day to day operations. Focusing his efforts on Executive level stuff. Happens to any company as you go from 1 employee to 10+. Eventually the owner gets out of the day to day operations and just focuses on running the business.


It helps that he has a good strong base of employees that he can trust to run things well without a lot of guidance.


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## dftnz7 (Mar 2, 2008)

I did order some Edead and 6x9 adapter baffles from them. I did it in two different orders about a week apart, both of them I ordered in the evening online, and had them 36 hours later in my house. Not too shabby for poor service. Asked them a few things too and they were very helpful. Those bastards.


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## BrokenBC (Aug 12, 2007)

Don't take my previous post as negative. I love eD. I've not dealt with ben directly so I cannot comment on him but from my experiences with chris and alex they are standup guys. They have been a little slow on RMA stuff but they always had my back. I will blame that on what it seems to me of having too much work for too few employees. but yeah, everything seems to be shipped out quickly and the only product I've had an issue with was a pair of 6000's and what do you expect from a pair of $80 speakers?

products I've used...
eNetic = flexible and is not undersized
eDead V1 = I've had no issues here in oregon for over a year
eDead V1SE = again 1 year with no issues
Nine.1 = no problems, scoped a sine wave at 1350W before clipping with a running car
Nine.2 = no problems, have not scoped it but seems pretty robust
Nine.2x = not mine but one that I installed ended up with some issues since the bass boost was half way on and it went funky... no problems once that was switched off.
6000's = they sound like $100 speakers... the mid is great but the tweeter is harsh, also the coax mount thing has pretty crappy construction. I always recommend people save a few more dollars and buy something nice.

on another note... If I were to buy and DLS stuff, I'd buy it from them just because they are authorized and I trust them to handle things if there was a warranty issue.

Summary of my opinion on eD... great guys, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

BrokenBC said:


> Summary of my opinion on eD... great guys, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them.


i still have my EU700, total of six working just fine[a couple installed in vehicles and 4 in an enclosure at my friend,Petes {he is building me an incredible enclosure for two 10" IDMAX  }].

I ordered a 13AV.2 after seeing what NPDang tested this beast out at!!


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## Kast (Mar 4, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> i still have my EU700, total of six working just fine[a couple installed in vehicles and 4 in an enclosure at my friend,Petes {he is building me an incredible enclosure for two 10" IDMAX  }].
> 
> I ordered a 13AV.2 after seeing what NPDang tested this beast out at!!


I love my 13av.2. I havent heard any other sub like it to date in the below 40hz range. It just plays lower and with more authority then you would imagine for its size(even though its 60lbs!). 

As for ED ive owned several of their products(12v and HT) going back to '06 and never had a problem. Alex and Chris are great guys and ive spoken with them several times and are always available a phone call away. Ive only spoken to Ben once or twice when he hopped on the phone and thanked me for my business. Ive heard stories about their earlier years and problems with RMAs here and there but ive never personally encountered anything similar.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

notacop said:


> Fire retardation in door panels is pretty low on my priorities. There is next to nothing in those doors that can or will start a fire, the trunk is a little different, but still of minor concern. Most cars go up so fast when they catch fire than in the 2-5 minutes it takes for firefighters to respond the car is totalled anywya. If if my car catches on fire, let it burn to the ground, that way I get a new one courtesy of my insurance. If I get a small smouldering fire, my car will smell like smoke for the rest of its life, even after the trunk trim or door panels are replaced.
> 
> 
> As long as it does not explode and take me with it, I am cool with it


Car parked in garage attached to house. Smoldering fire started by electrical problem. Mylar, adhesive ignites. Aluminum, fire snuffed out. You're asleep upstairs. Still don't think it matters?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Car parked in garage attached to house. Smoldering fire started by electrical problem. Mylar, adhesive ignites. Aluminum, fire snuffed out. You're asleep upstairs. Still don't think it matters?


I'd love to see the pics !

Did you have insurance ?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> I'd love to see the pics !
> 
> Did you have insurance ?


Hypothetical situation although a house around the corner burned exactly that way. Nasty looking. Since I have no idea if they had added any aftermarket stuff to the car, I'm willing to admit that the chances are probably no more than 50/50 that ED was to blame


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Hypothetical situation although a house around the corner burned exactly that way. Nasty looking. Since I have no idea if they had added any aftermarket stuff to the car, I'm willing to admit that the chances are probably no more than 50/50 that ED was to blame


What else have you bought from them?
Wire?
Sound products?

any luck at all, or just bad juju?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

a$$hole said:


> What else have you bought from them?
> Wire?
> Sound products?
> 
> any luck at all, or just bad juju?


I bought wire, recommended it to others until they did a bait and switch and started shipping eBay thin conductor/thick jacket stuff instead. I've bought sound deadener and found it extremely lacking - the asphalt stuff because they overstated critical specs by 25% and eventual flat out lied about its composition and the new stuff because the only switched to butyl because they were dragged kicking and screaming to it and then compromised the product by cheaping out on the facing. The fact that the v1² peels itself off is another strike against them. The fact that at least one ED employee immediately started posting that the new stuff was better than Dynamat Xtreme was very annoying. One shouldn't have to constantly ride herd on a company's clams. 

I used to just be a critic of the sound deadener and remained neutral on the company - check my history. I actually went out of my way to recommend the eNetic until they burned a bunch of customers. All of that changed for me when Ben Milne saw fit to attack me on ICIX in a completely dishonest way. That made it personal. Now, since I have everything documented, there is no point in not calling him a liar. As such, I have no interest in doing business with him or his company. Beyond that, my only interest is in preventing people from being misled into thinking ED's sound deadening products are good values. The rest is just for fun.

As a last thought on this topic, I used to consider the personal animosity toward Mr. Milne and his company to be completely over the top. Some of it was clearly burnt bridges with friends, but the rest made no sense to me at all. Having now seen first hand how his petty little mind functions, I understand very well. It seems clear to me that it is only because of some of his employees fighting against his psychological demons that the company has done as well as it has. It seems entirely possible that if he were to actually sever all ties to ED, that they could turn it into something respectable.


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> Car parked in garage attached to house. Smoldering fire started by electrical problem. Mylar, adhesive ignites. Aluminum, fire snuffed out. You're asleep upstairs. Still don't think it matters?




My wife and my mother in law get the garage. I park all the way down the drive way, so there is enough space for either car to back out of the garage without me blocking them. 




Unless the fire is coming from a wire run between the sheet metal and the deadening, the deadening is not going to contain the fire.


Most vehicle fires come from the engine compartment, no amount of deadening is going to save that one. Interior fires may be caused by wiring, but in most cases they spread by carpet or upholstry going up in flames.


Aluminum faced deadening might keep the paint from blistering off the sheet metal if you are lucky, but it is not going to be extinguishing any fires.


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## Demonbane23 (Aug 22, 2005)

I have owned the following products..

Edead v1se and V3

Nine.1
Nine.2
Nine.4
Ed 6500's - came with CDT crossover and Tweeter -- it was a while back
Kv.2
Ov.2

Overall I have had no bad experiences with the products themselves. All the amps ran like champs and had little to no distortion or problems when set properly. The nine.1 was putting out around 1525 rms with ease. The ov.2 had a real nice sound to it and I have used the 6500's on and off in between other speaker sets.

The 6500's actually have a very nice sound for the money. Any way I have had a few problems on icix and was given many warnings and pms to not ask certain questions. I was also a victim of the Ov.2 preorder which lasted like 6 months past the original date but I expected it I guess.

Overall I would buy from them again but I think I have moved on to a different level of what I expect and want out of car audio. Ever since switching to my sealed Idmax I really see no reason to go elsewhere at the moment...


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

My latest elemental designs product experience.

I spent about 2 hours peeling all of the eDeadv3 off of my inner door skins that did not stick very well. "Sticks to anything!!!!!! for a few minutes anyway....

I installed Damplifier Pro and haven't looked back. Night and day difference.


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## Kast (Mar 4, 2008)

BlackSapphire said:


> My latest elemental designs product experience.
> 
> I spent about 2 hours peeling all of the eDeadv3 off of my inner door skins that did not stick very well. "Sticks to anything!!!!!! for a few minutes anyway....
> 
> I installed Damplifier Pro and haven't looked back. Night and day difference.


Edead v3 is the liquid deadener. I would rather use mat over liquid any day...the liquid is really only for hard to reach areas that mat wont cover. I havent had any problems with mat edead in 2 different vehicles.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

how do you peel off the liquid deadener from eD? I have a ton i need to scrape off


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## Kast (Mar 4, 2008)

Im not sure, ive never used their liquid deadener. I dont think it would be too difficult but might wanna ask the folks at ED what the best way would be.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Kast said:


> Im not sure, ive never used their liquid deadener. I dont think it would be too difficult but might wanna ask the folks at ED what the best way would be.


I did. they said its highly water based and it should scrape right off with your finger nail....


Havent really got around to trying it.


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> I did. they said its highly water based and it should scrape right off with your finger nail....
> 
> 
> Havent really got around to trying it.



It flakes off pretty easily. A little heat helps too. I was lucky - the surface I applied it to was flexible (but eDead is not). So, when I flexed the surface, the eDead would just release from the material and I could get it off in fairly big chunks. If you have it applied to metal, you'll probably have to go to town with a plastic putty knife and hope for the best.


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## notacop (Jan 27, 2006)

BlackSapphire said:


> My latest elemental designs product experience.
> 
> I spent about 2 hours peeling all of the eDeadv3 off of my inner door skins that did not stick very well. "Sticks to anything!!!!!! for a few minutes anyway....
> 
> I installed Damplifier Pro and haven't looked back. Night and day difference.




If it didn't stick very well how did it take 2 hours to remove?


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## garvinzoom (Mar 23, 2008)

notacop said:


> If it didn't stick very well how did it take 2 hours to remove?


Hard to reach, multiple doors.....I would guess those are some good reasons.


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

garvinzoom said:


> Hard to reach, multiple doors.....I would guess those are some good reasons.


Yup..... large areas flaked off easily. However, I picked out every last bit from all of the irregular areas - that's what took the time.

I used it because I had it. I figured I could always mat over it (that was the plan anyway). I still like it for coating the inside of sub boxes and such though.


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## 5.7TBI (May 10, 2008)

I bought two 13OV.2's when they were on sale for $70 a piece (I think they still are), and a nine.5 for $350 because it is being discontinued. They shipped it all extremely fast and the 13OV.2's sound great off the sub channel of the nine.5. Different people have had dramatically different experiences with them. I have received nothing but helpful responses on ICIX so for me they have been great. You cannot argue with two quality 12" subs and a beefy 5-channel for less than $500.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I run a NINe.5 as well. I like it a lot and will go active with it once I get my new car and start to build a system again. That sub channel is the pretty strong for a 5 channel...and 1 ohm stable too


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## JKrepps (Feb 27, 2008)

Am mostly just a voyeur on these forums, and not a lot more active anywhere else (including ICIX). With that said, I have placed a few car audio orders with eD, and to date have had no problems. At the moment I am running a nine.5 and 2x 13Kv2, with a.. few.. more toys sitting in boxes waiting on the coming build or resale. Again, to date, I have had no issues with their items.

It does seem that the majority of the major issues with them come from a while ago (not all, of course, I know a few people here have some ongoing/current issues with them). I have visited their shop once (saved me shipping on a few goodies, since I was in the area anyway), and really have no complaints. Everyone I have dealt with to date has been helpful, answered questions as readily as possible (and gotten back to me quickly for any info they did not know). I have never spoken to Ben Milne. 

Hope this helps,


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

5.7TBI said:


> I bought two 13OV.2's when they were on sale for $70 a piece (I think they still are), and a nine.5 for $350 because it is being discontinued. They shipped it all extremely fast and the 13OV.2's sound great off the sub channel of the nine.5. Different people have had dramatically different experiences with them. I have received nothing but helpful responses on ICIX so for me they have been great. You cannot argue with two quality 12" subs and a beefy 5-channel for less than $500.


i just picked up a 13Ov2 as well, and it also arrived very quickly. I like it so far, though it's not as pretty as my old 10O flatcone was. I wish I still had that thing.


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> I run a NINe.5 as well. I like it a lot and will go active with it once I get my new car and start to build a system again. That sub channel is the pretty strong for a 5 channel...and 1 ohm stable too


you're getting rid of the IS?


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## 1970Cutlass (Feb 21, 2008)

They are ok, I have dealt with a few times. I have bought from people before and they are decent. Subs arent bad, amps are a step above hifonics. There is always worse


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

drocpsu said:


> you're getting rid of the IS?


Yeah, I'm going to get a Subaru Legacy GT. The IS has about 80k on it and no warranty. Stuff could get expensive in the future. Plus, I want AWD and a turbo motor that has potential.


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> Yeah, I'm going to get a Subaru Legacy GT. The IS has about 80k on it and no warranty. Stuff could get expensive in the future. Plus, I want AWD and a turbo motor that has potential.


you should get a legacy gt spec.b.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

drocpsu said:


> you should find a way to make enough money so you can get a legacy gt spec.b.


Slightly more accurate 


I want the spec b bad. I like it a lot and it comes with the 6speed from the STI. That transmission is solid as a rock and I really need something like that. I've been kicking myself in the face since I bought the IS300 because the 5speed is a weak tranny. I don't want to get caught in the same position again.


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

ED used to be much better when they had good prices... now I shop partsexpress


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## Tempe (Jun 3, 2005)

No I have never personally used this company's products. I used to back this company around 5-6 years ago. Then this whole fiasco happened around 2004:

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61209&highlight=elemental

After all this crap with people getting screwed over how could anyone again support such a company? Maybe if this guy did a public apology and make right where he went wrong with his customers (I've never heard that he did), I would change my mind. There are just too many other companies out there selling good product at a great price to recommend eD to _anyone_.

T


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## yeldak99 (Mar 5, 2008)

I've used ED twice recently. I bought some pre-made rings for my fronts (2 sets). They only shipped 1 set, called and they overnighted another set. I also just ordered my girlfriend one of their Scion tC custom enclosures, it came to me missing the speaker terminal, I called them, emailed a picture of the hole where it should have been and they overnighted me the terminals. I also recieved a phone call apologizing because they had screwed up 2 of my orders. So they are pretty good in my book. They made mistakes yes, but they took the proper steps to right them.


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## dftnz7 (Mar 2, 2008)

I have now bought speaker rings, some Edead, some wire, and most recently, one of the 13Ov2 D4 subs that were on sale for $70, which I installed in my beater S10 I am using as a runaround truck now. I must say that every time I have ordered, it has been in the morning, and I have had the items the very next day. Granted I am only one state over from them, but it is still 300 miles or so, and to order at 10 am one day and have it the very next day is getting it out the door in a hurry. And I have been pleased with the products so far. 

I have also called in a couple times with some questions, and Alex always answers the phone, and has been courteous and helpful...It seems to me that at least they have worked out their problems and have things running pretty smooth now. Hell if I didn't know so much of the ED hate story, and wasn't aware of any of it, I would say this is about the best service I have ever had from a car audio company. I keep waiting to get screwed or hung out to dry but then I end up being shocked at how _well_ everything went.

Yes, Ben made some mistakes, most of which many will never forgive because he has too much arrogance/pride to admit it or apologize...that's his own problem and he made the bed he sleeps in now. But like I said, I have made some recent purchases and been very impressed, especially for the kind of rap they get on the boards...


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

Tempe said:


> http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61209&highlight=elemental


Good Lord, that's a long read. Totally enlightening though. Thank for posting it.


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## VietPho (May 27, 2008)

I've bought my stuff from eD twice. The first time was early 2007 [old system in my sig] and the second time was about a month ago [new system in my sig]. 

There product is pretty good. 

I just wished I lived closer to Elemental Designs so that my shipping cost wouldn't be so high.

I think it cost me about $28 to ship one of my amps to them for a checkup one time. Everyday, I pray that my subs don't go wrong so that I don't ever need to ship it to them. It costs about $40 to ship a single sub to them.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

BlackSapphire said:


> Good Lord, that's a long read. Totally enlightening though. Thank for posting it.


4 years old too.....


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

spl152db said:


> 4 years old too.....


I know....

On another note...I heard that Audi made hopelessly unreliable cars during the mid 90's; that means all the new cars they currently make will be unreliable too right?


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> I know....
> 
> On another note...I heard that Audi made hopelessly unreliable cars during the mid 90's; that means all the new cars they currently make will be unreliable too right?


its hard to shake a stigma like that..... takes years...... not saying their qc has gotten better as i've still seen surrounds that aren't glued down....


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

spl152db said:


> its hard to shake a stigma like that..... takes years...... not saying their qc has gotten better as i've still seen surrounds that aren't glued down....


... and the eDead v1² that peeled itself off and the eNetic bait and switch and now I'm waiting for samples of v1SE² that apparently has no adhesive bond strength at all. If you want to outlive a bad name, you have to stop doing bad stuff.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> ... and the eDead v1² that peeled itself off and the eNetic bait and switch and now I'm waiting for samples of v1SE² that apparently has no adhesive bond strength at all. If you want to outlive a bad name, you have to stop doing bad stuff.


seems its really only the deadener _these _days that they are doing bad right? 

I mean amps are zenon designed, subs are ID designed...seems like the only they made is the deadener and its poo


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Megalomaniac said:


> seems its really only the deadener _these _days that they are doing bad right?
> 
> I mean amps are zenon designed, subs are ID designed...seems like the only they made is the deadener and its poo


I really don't know. bryanwescoe brought his 12av2 to my house so we could crate it up and ship it to npdang for testing. It looked solid to me and tested well. Then again, seems to me that a guy called Megalomaniac had a nine.5 arrive with a dead channel 

My only point is that if you aren't doing QC on the simplest products and then refuse to make good when they fail; when you substitute inferior power wire for premium for whatever reason, you can't claim that all of your problems are in the past.

Can't comment on the zenon and ID connections.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Then again, seems to me that a guy called Megalomaniac had a nine.5 arrive with a dead channel


That's just plain not true...

Mir's NINe.5 never had a dead channel. The only "problem" that he had was he didn't know that the remote bass knob only worked when you use the LP on the amp so he thought it was broken. Nothing was wrong with his amp. Mir clamped his and said he got above the rated power too. I don't remember the exact figure though.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> That's just plain not true...


I understand that and thought it was implied by the giant grin emoticon. User kimokalihi had the amp with the defect. I though I was being funny by suggesting TO Mir while QUOTING Mir that he had the problem.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I understand that and thought it was implied by the giant grin emoticon. User kimokalihi had the amp with the defect. I though I was being funny by suggesting TO Mir while QUOTING Mir that he had the problem.


lol, I thought the grin was just taking a stab at Mir


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> lol, I thought the grin was just taking a stab at Mir


Don't see the resemblance


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I really don't know. bryanwescoe brought his 12av2 to my house so we could crate it up and ship it to npdang for testing. It looked solid to me and tested well. Then again, seems to me that a guy called Megalomaniac had a nine.5 arrive with a dead channel
> *
> My only point is that if you aren't doing QC on the simplest products and then refuse to make good when they fail; when you substitute inferior power wire for premium for whatever reason, you can't claim that all of your problems are in the past.*
> 
> Can't comment on the zenon and ID connections.


I can understand that fully, its like they rely on people's ignorance. tbh i only bought the nine5 cause it was such a dam good price. any regrets? none as of now. maybe if and when it fails and i dont get the coverage i need i might gripe. However I have used the eDead stuffs, man its horrible, i used it on my computer and some on my trunk lid, this was 2 years ago though. the trunk lid failed and fell off also left a residue of asphalt, italyn knows, it got on his hands  and on my computer i noticed the deadener turned into hard as a rock, i dont know if its supose to do that ,but my damplifer never changed characteristics.


i really want to know is who OEMs their HT stuff, it use to be CDT on their comps...



Rudeboy said:


> I understand that and thought it was implied by the giant grin emoticon. User kimokalihi had the amp with the defect. I though I was being funny by suggesting TO Mir while QUOTING Mir that he had the problem.





Rudeboy said:


> Don't see the resemblance


LAWL


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> ... and the eDead v1² that peeled itself off and the eNetic bait and switch and now I'm waiting for samples of v1SE² that apparently has no adhesive bond strength at all. If you want to outlive a bad name, you have to stop doing bad stuff.


I just got the samples of the new v1SE². Two guys on ROE were complaining about failures and one just sent me a big stack of it since he said ED would not refund his money "because he wasn't a professional installer".

I've done the first round of adhesion tests and the results are terrible. This stuff has an adhesive bond that's even weaker than the v1² I tested a year ago. Failures of v1² have been discussed here before. When I tested the v1SE² last year, the adhesive bond was almost 7 times stronger. You can actually take 2 pieces of this stuff, press them together - adhesive to adhesive and then peel them apart.

Within an hour of receiving the samples, I had determined that the adhesive was butyl and run this first round of adhesion tests. What does it say for ED that they shipped this stuff? This isn't a case of a single bad roll, since between the two guys on ROE, 3 rolls were involved.


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## dftnz7 (Mar 2, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I just got the samples of the new v1SE². Two guys on ROE were complaining about failures and one just sent me a big stack of it since he said ED would not refund his money "because he wasn't a professional installer".
> 
> I've done the first round of adhesion tests and the results are terrible. This stuff has an adhesive bond that's even weaker than the v1² I tested a year ago. Failures of v1² have been discussed here before. When I tested the v1SE² last year, the adhesive bond was almost 7 times stronger. You can actually take 2 pieces of this stuff, press them together - adhesive to adhesive and then peel them apart.
> 
> Within an hour of receiving the samples, I had determined that the adhesive was butyl and run this first round of adhesion tests. What does it say for ED that they shipped this stuff? This isn't a case of a single bad roll, since between the two guys on ROE, 3 rolls were involved.



Boy that's strange...the V1se2 stuff I deadened my doors with 2 months ago is stuck so hard I had to heat it and use a putty knife to get it to peal up when I had to change some stuff around in my doors last week. And I did it originally when it was cold outside, albeit the heat was on about 60 degrees in my garage when I did it. But didn't use a heat gun at all when I applied it. Also, all the little piece stuck to my dusty concrete garage floor have required some serious scraping to get up. I was very pleased with the adhesion of the material I received...

There is also no way I could press two pieces together, adhesive to adhesive, and then pull them apart. I had a piece fold over on itself when I was applying it to my S10 a couple week ago and there was no way to get it back apart. None. And did I ever try since I had shaped it perfectly and didn't want to scrap it. And this isn't stuff I all got in one batch, I have ordered three separate orders of Edead and every one has been the same--really sticky. 

I am not an ED fanboi, in fact, I am very wary of them, but they have yet to let me down on my recent purchases...even their dreaded sound deadening has proved to be respectable.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

i had an issue like this with fatmat. I stored it in a humid storage room next to the garage. Well after a while the release paper started peeling off. I touched the mat and it was definately not sticky anymore. Waterbased adhesives ftl. But all the v1se2 i've bougth has been fine, though not stored in the same room.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

dftnz7 said:


> Boy that's strange...the V1se2 stuff I deadened my doors with 2 months ago is stuck so hard I had to heat it and use a putty knife to get it to peal up when I had to change some stuff around in my doors last week. And I did it originally when it was cold outside, albeit the heat was on about 60 degrees in my garage when I did it. But didn't use a heat gun at all when I applied it. Also, all the little piece stuck to my dusty concrete garage floor have required some serious scraping to get up. I was very pleased with the adhesion of the material I received...


The adhesive bond strength on the stuff I tested a year ago was the same. This is definitely not the same adhesive and appears to be the same as the adhesive on the v1² I tested before - definitely not acceptable. I only have the word of the guy who sent me the product that ED refused to make good, so I can't say any more on that. People need to be aware that this isn't the same v1SE² they were selling a while ago, just as the eNetic 1/0 shipped during the sale was significantly inferior to what they had been selling in the months before.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

spl152db said:


> i had an issue like this with fatmat. I stored it in a humid storage room next to the garage. Well after a while the release paper started peeling off. I touched the mat and it was definately not sticky anymore. Waterbased adhesives ftl. But all the v1se2 i've bougth has been fine, though not stored in the same room.


FatMat is entirely different, being asphalt. It actually doesn't use any sort of water based adhesive despite erroneously claiming to have a 1 mil PSA - no such thing. The humidity may have damaged the paper backing, but heat is more likely to be the cause of decreased stickiness - VOCs gassing off.

Butyl shouldn't be damaged by age and eDead has a plastic release layer that should not be influenced by humidity. The samples I received were pristine and looked exactly like what I bought a year ago. I expected the same test results and was quite surprised by what happened. The adhesive felt sticky to the touch.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> FatMat is entirely different, being asphalt. It actually doesn't use any sort of water based adhesive despite erroneously claiming to have a 1 mil PSA - no such thing. The humidity may have damaged the paper backing, but heat is more likely to be the cause of decreased stickiness - VOCs gassing off.
> 
> Butyl shouldn't be damaged by age and eDead has a plastic release layer that should not be influenced by humidity. The samples I received were pristine and looked exactly like what I bought a year ago. I expected the same test results and was quite surprised by what happened. The adhesive felt sticky to the touch.


i have a few rolls i bought about 3 months ago, i could send you some of the edead i have for testing. some from each roll... i think the issue here is non standardized manufacturing. bad qc where its being manufactured. and i think its funny that you have a to be a "professional installer" the punk 16 year old blasting the ghetto system next to you could be working at best buy and be a "professional installer" sad.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

spl152db said:


> i have a few rolls i bought about 3 months ago, i could send you some of the edead i have for testing. some from each roll... i think the issue here is non standardized manufacturing. bad qc where its being manufactured. and i think its funny that you have a to be a "professional installer" the punk 16 year old blasting the ghetto system next to you could be working at best buy and be a "professional installer" sad.


Be glad to do it. PM sent.


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## annoyingrob (Aug 24, 2007)

I bought a nine.1 used off some guy on ebay. It didn't work. I sent it to ed to see what they could do, they told me they would rebuild it for half retail price, which I was happy with. Worked fine ever since.

I later bought a nine.4 for my active fronts, and haven't had an issue with it.

I wouldn't call their customer service "amazing" but it was decent.


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

eh ive had a nine.2 to their 6500s comps and a nine1 on a 13av2, also had 3 11ov2s. the 11ov2s kept making a weird noise, im not sure what it was but i know a while back a guy told me he had issues with the glue from the surround not holding up and causing leakage, they banned the guy that afternoon. the nine.2 went into protect mode and wouldnt come out, so i sent it back under warranty and had it fixed then sold it, figured id give another a try, it has thus done the same thing so i sold the nine.1, 13av2 and plan to go a different route. funny they just delete and/or lock any threads when people have technical issues or questions, which i find ironic if ur going to have an elemental designs section, why not let people ask questions, if u have time to ***** about them making the post, then u have time to answer their questions and thus further help other members of the forum in the future.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

I ordered one of the 13Kv.2-D4's that were on sale. I found the eD staff nothing less than helpful/

I measured the 13Kv.2-D4's T/S parameters with the Parts Express WT3 (a new toy I purchased quite recently) - they were VERY different to the published specs - you can read more about this on the ICIX forum in this thread: http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=55982&page=3&pp=10

I chose not to pursue the matter any further, but FWIW, the room the driver is measured in does NOT appreciably affect the T/S parameters (unless the driver is of course mounted up against a wall or in a corner, or somewhere else where the cone is "loaded" by a nearby surface).

The 13Kv.2-D4 sounds fine in the ~1 cu.ft. stuffed sealed box that I'm currently using it in.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Brian Steele said:


> I ordered one of the 13Kv.2-D4's that were on sale. I found the eD staff nothing less than helpful/
> 
> I measured the 13Kv.2-D4's T/S parameters with the Parts Express WT3 (a new toy I purchased quite recently) - they were VERY different to the published specs - you can read more about this on the ICIX forum in this thread: http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=55982&page=3&pp=10
> 
> ...


Holy crap, that ICIX thread is worth reading. Somebody needs to come up with a word to describe Milne's writing. "Scary" is the best I can do at the moment


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

matt62485 said:


> eh ive had a nine.2 to their 6500s comps and a nine1 on a 13av2, also had 3 11ov2s. the 11ov2s kept making a weird noise, im not sure what it was but i know a while back a guy told me he had issues with the glue from the surround not holding up and causing leakage, they banned the guy that afternoon. the nine.2 went into protect mode and wouldnt come out, so i sent it back under warranty and had it fixed then sold it, figured id give another a try, it has thus done the same thing so i sold the nine.1, 13av2 and plan to go a different route. funny they just delete and/or lock any threads when people have technical issues or questions, which i find ironic if ur going to have an elemental designs section, why not let people ask questions, if u have time to ***** about them making the post, then u have time to answer their questions and thus further help other members of the forum in the future.


lol, i am the one that told you about the bad surrounds and yes they did ban the screen name i was using, they have banned me several times for saying ED gear isnt the best out there, IP changer ftw, is till do frequent that forum to look at installs and such


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Holy crap, that ICIX thread is worth reading. Somebody needs to come up with a word to describe Milne's writing. "Scary" is the best I can do at the moment


FWIW, I've been using the WT3 to measure the T/S parameters and impedance response of some other drivers I have lying around the place, with some interesting results.

e.g.

1. Next to the Adire Audio Shiva, the next driver that closely met its published specs was... a Pyramid W61 6.5" midbass driver, which was located at the bottom of the Pyramid line when I purchased it many, many years ago. 

2. A cheap coaxial driver that Pioneer claims has response down to 30 Hz checked in with an Fs of 117 Hz and a Qts of 1.3. 30 Hz? Hmm... probably not... 

3. The eD 13Kv.2-D4 and ~1 cu.ft. sealed and stuffed box combo yields a Qb of 1.03 and an Fb of just below 50 Hz. The Qb is a bit high, but I'm filtering it @ 63 Hz, so the end result seems to be a pretty good match for my vehicle.


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## aboof (Jul 6, 2008)

I bought an e12k (old blue e model) from them in 2003 or so, and had a fine experience. They shipped it damn fast, and their forum (it wasn't on ICIX yet, I don't think) was useful for the million newb install questions I had. The sub was okay - I didn't love it, didn't hate it. I didn't have much to compare it to, as I'd only ever had an Infinity Basslink before, but I wasn't blown away in the way that others on various forums seemed to be. Probably a lot had to do with a ****ty install, but it really only felt like a marginal improvement over the Basslink.

I think it's important to realize that their forum is very useful for people who own their products or are considering owning them to be able to exchange install ideas and other information. It should be obvious that a company-run forum will be mostly useless for objective reviews of that company's products. It'd be pretty surprising if they didn't censor criticism of the company and its products, actually.

The RMA issue I can see both ways - I was hugely impressed with Canon, for example, when they had a recall on a lens of theirs I own, and they emailed me a shipping label. I sent them back the wrong lens by accident, and they shipped me back my lens for free, and gave me another shipping label - also for free. They ate 4 shipping costs, and 2 of them were only necessary because I was a bonehead. However, eD sells very heavy stuff that is very easily damaged by people like me who don't know what they're doing, so it's somewhat understandable that they're more conservative, but I agree they should eat the costs on blatant manufacturers' errors.

I'm kind of torn right now because I didn't love my e12k but I can't know that it wasn't because of a ****ty install, and I'm currently trying to find a solution for my RSX that gets me back all or most of my hatch space. I'm tempted to get their custom stealthbox for 2 SQ10s that fits my car's spare tire well, because they're the only ones making such a thing for my car and I don't have the means to make one myself for another brand of sub. All the negativity on here has me ambivalent about going with their box and their SQ10s, though.


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