# RCA cables sonic signature



## Henrique Duarte (Jun 25, 2020)

I am looking for RCA cables to use with my tweeters, mid-range and mid-bass, in an active system.

After reading about different cables, I saw many comments stating that one model widened the sound stage, other boosted bass notes, and another highlighted the top end frequencies. In similar way, some cables are regarded as neutral, others as warm or analytical.

Do cable specifications, or technical data such as electrical parameters indicate it's sonic signature?

Is it possible to predict the impact a cable will have on my system before testing?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

RCA cables DO NOT do the following:

widen the sound stage
boost bass notes
highlight the top end frequencies
have a sonic signature
add warmth
add cold
add neutrality
This is all marketing BS designed for suckers.

With that said; there is difference between a half-decent set of RCA's, and a dirt-cheap set...
But that difference is mainly in their ability to reject electromagnetic RF external noise.

There are a lot of good quality RCA cables out there: Stinger and Knuconcepts make pretty good RCA's.
Don't get caught-up in the marketing jargon... it's just copper wire.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

jimmydee said:


> RCA cables DO NOT do the following:
> 
> widen the sound stage
> boost bass notes
> ...


says you


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## Henrique Duarte (Jun 25, 2020)

Do silver plated RCAs really make a difference on top end frequencies?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Henrique Duarte said:


> Do silver plated RCAs really make a difference on top end frequencies?


No... this is more marketing garbage.
It has no ability to distinguish between high notes or low notes. It only carrys an electrical current.

Silver is a superior electrical conductor... but adding silver to the tips of an RCA adds zero benefit. You would need pure silver from one end of the system (complete internals of the head unit) straight through to the internals of the DSP and amp, as well as have pure silver wire inside the RCAs and speaker wire, in order to benefit from this. Putting silver on the tips of the RCA's is like putting a chrome air filter on you car, and expecting it to perform better.

Heck, I use Stinger 8000 RCA cables, and they have silver plated tips! But they don't makes my highs sound higher, or tighten my bass response, or do any of the garbage that is on their marketing brochure. I bought the Stinger 8000's for the following reasons (in this order):

They look cool.
They are decent quality (with our without the silver tips).
They look cool.
I've got a box full of old RCAs... many different brands: Knuconcepts, Stinger, Monoprice, Amazon brand, Monster, JL Audio. None of them changed, improved, or detracted from the sound of my system.

Just get a decent set, that fits within your budget.


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## Chris12 (Sep 20, 2018)

I spent a ton of time thinking about what RCA’s to get also.

In the end I went with Stinger 6000’s which are middle of the road. I’m sure I still spent too much, but I have confidence in their performance.



Amazon.com


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

jimmydee said:


> No... this is more marketing garbage.
> It has no ability to distinguish between high notes or low notes. It only carrys an electrical current.
> 
> Silver is a superior electrical conductor... but adding silver to the tips of an RCA adds zero benefit. You would need pure silver from one end of the system (complete internals of the head unit) straight through to the internals of the DSP and amp, as well as have pure silver wire inside the RCAs and speaker wire, in order to benefit from this. Putting silver on the tips of the RCA's is like putting a chrome air filter on you car, and expecting it to perform better.
> ...


Right. Even if the entire wire was made from silver, all that would do is lower resistance so that either a smaller wire could be used, or there would be less voltage drop. Since the voltage drop across an RCA is so tiny anyway, there wouldn't be a benefit from having less resistance. Regardless, there wouldn't be a sonic improvement even if an oversized wire of pure silver was used. 

Good RCAs will reject noise, have a robust insulation, and good ends that are snug enough to stay connected, and not so snug that they rip the amp apart when you disconnect them. Any other claims of sonic improvements is nonsense.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Im going to do some testing on my own accord just because ive heard some very conflicting things. To me it makes sense that cables wouldnt change anything as long as they are competently made in the first place, but i am also curious.
So i dont know when, but I am going to make a few sets of oversized, teflon, air gapped, solid silver, 28g, with high silver solder, twisted pair, differential RCAs to use between my helix and amps just to see if i can notice anything first hand. Basically using every single buzz word that should work together and making my own version of the 500 dollar RCA's that you buy from audiophile websites without the added $460 for marketing hahah. I dont know exactly when im going to get around to it, but I plan to report back. If anyone wants me to make them some while I am at it, I have no problem doing so.


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Porsche said:


> says you


And what says you?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bnae38 said:


> And what says you?


It costs more, so it has to be better, right?!?


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Other than solid construction for noise rejection and limited capacitance (which could affect high frequency response depending on outZ of source), there isn't much to say..

Even material construction and thickness of conductor to limit voltage drops are NON issues. Input impedances are in the thousands to 10-thousands of k-ohms. There is no voltage drop!


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

bnae38 said:


> Other than solid construction for noise rejection and limited capacitance (which could affect high frequency response depending on outZ of source), there isn't much to say..
> 
> Even material construction and thickness of conductor to limit voltage drops are NON issues. Input impedances are in the thousands to 10-thousands of k-ohms. There is no voltage drop!


The voltage drop is already so low that switching to silver would be a complete waste, but that's one argument that the audiofools will use.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

where did you guys get your physics and engineering degrees from?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Porsche said:


> where did you guys get your physics and engineering degrees from?


I got mine from the University of British Columbia...






Masters of Applied Science | Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering


The Master of Applied Science (M.A.Sc.) program is intended for students who are interested in pursuing advanced studies and research at the postgraduate level. The M.A.Sc. degree requires the completion of a thesis and course work. The expected M.A.Sc. timeframe is roughly 24 months. M.A.Sc...




www.ece.ubc.ca


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> It costs more, so it has to be better, right?!?











Power CablesCables







www.thecableco.com




If it isn't surrounded by crystals to harness the power of the quantum realm you're missing out


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Henrique Duarte said:


> I am looking for RCA cables to use with my tweeters, mid-range and mid-bass, in an active system.
> 
> After reading about different cables, I saw many comments stating that one model widened the sound stage, other boosted bass notes, and another highlighted the top end frequencies. In similar way, some cables are regarded as neutral, others as warm or analytical.
> 
> ...


They all sound like copper wire.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Im going to do some testing on my own accord just because ive heard some very conflicting things. To me it makes sense that cables wouldnt change anything as long as they are competently made in the first place, but i am also curious.
> So i dont know when, but I am going to make a few sets of oversized, teflon, air gapped, solid silver, 28g, with high silver solder, twisted pair, differential RCAs to use between my helix and amps just to see if i can notice anything first hand. Basically using every single buzz word that should work together and making my own version of the 500 dollar RCA's that you buy from audiophile websites without the added $460 for marketing hahah. I dont know exactly when im going to get around to it, but I plan to report back. If anyone wants me to make them some while I am at it, I have no problem doing so.


Don't forget to put them on little stands to keep the sound from getting dirty on the floor.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Power CablesCables
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOLY CRAP! Those must be really good. Or their customers are really stupid. I'm going to the bank right now to mortgage my house, I must have some of those!


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> Don't forget to put them on little stands to keep the sound from getting dirty on the floor.


I think I may line the bottom with superconductors and the floor of my car with magnets to make sure they are off the floor with 0 friction for the sound. I may have to dip them in LN2 for every song. But im sure that the better sound will outweigh that problem.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Speaking of that, taking this to the extreme, if someone DID produce a TRUE superconducting wire to use in RCA, and speaker cables. Do you think that would have any appreciable difference even?


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Speaking of that, taking this to the extreme, if someone DID produce a TRUE superconducting wire to use in RCA, and speaker cables. Do you think that would have any appreciable difference even?


Not that humans could hear.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Porsche said:


> where did you guys get your physics and engineering degrees from?


Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering here from the University of Michigan. I've spent 20 years since then studying audio science. I was a member of the Audio Engineering Society for 18 years until my local chapter disbanded.

A cable is a cable. Sprinkling marketing jargon and pixie dust does not make one sound better or different. Buy a decent build quality with decent shielding and be done with it...

However, if someone wants to spend a considerable amount of money on such things then so be it. That's their prerogative...

Ge0


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

everyone has there opinion, sorta like.......


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I was always cable sceptic and none made any difference... except for the van damme silver series lo cap 55, it’s very low resistance and capacitance and is the only cable Ive picked up any discernible difference with, if it’s in my head I’ll take it as it sounds better to me, if it sounds the same to any other people like judges it’s a bonus... as it was I needed new rcas and including plugs it came to <£60 which was awesome value I thought for 4 rca pairs


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Speaking of that, taking this to the extreme, if someone DID produce a TRUE superconducting wire to use in RCA, and speaker cables. Do you think that would have any appreciable difference even?


No!
... but it would be good for a VC in a high amperage sub.
But the suspension wouldn't see any benefit.


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

Jimmydee and Ge0 are definitely more qualified here then me (I’m an ME) but I’m also in the same camp of just buy a decent quality cable and stop there.

Full disclaimer I did take one of my electrical fundamentals courses at a community college 🤪

Physics is physics though


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Porsche said:


> everyone has there opinion, sorta like.......


Show us the way professor! What makes a cable special?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Porsche said:


> everyone has there opinion, sorta like.......


And that is exactly it. One opinion vs. another. We'll stick to our guns on both fronts. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree .

Ge0


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Ge0 said:


> And that is exactly it. One opinion vs. another. We'll stick to our guns on both fronts. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree .
> 
> Ge0



Yeah.. at least in this thread .


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

DiamondFanatic said:


> Jimmydee and Ge0 are definitely more qualified here then me (I’m an ME) but I’m also in the same camp of just buy a decent quality cable and stop there.
> 
> Full disclaimer I did take one of my electrical fundamentals courses at a community college 🤪
> 
> Physics is physics though


Don't forget bnae38


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

rob feature said:


> Show us the way professor! What makes a cable special?



i don't have to prove sh1t to you or anyone else. i have my opinion and you can have yours. for everyone that says they make NO difference i can assure you there is another that says they do


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Porsche said:


> i don't have to prove sh1t to you or anyone else. i have my opinion and you can have yours. for everyone that says they make NO difference i can assure you there is another that says they do


Science has spoken.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

rob feature said:


> Science has spoken.


no it hasn't. thats absurd.


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Ge0 said:


> Don't forget bnae38



No fancy degree here lol. I have an associate's in electronics.


I would argue good ol fashioned experience has more to do with ones abilities.. .


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

More relevant then an ME degree for sure! And agreed on experience 


bnae38 said:


> No fancy degree here lol. I have an associate's in electronics.
> 
> 
> I would argue good ol fashioned experience has more to do with ones abilities.. .


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

rob feature said:


> Science has spoken.


Science also said that there was nothing smaller than an atom and we had no idea about what dark matter was 100 years ago either.
I also doubt they make a difference, but thats the thing about science, knowledge is always evolving. So you never know!


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Like JimmyDee I have always been a sucker for cool looking interconnects. The brand SkiZer used in his GT3 build was fuuking phenomenal.

I've been using this brand to make my own cables for years: 



https://www.vampirewire.com/



Now I use fiber optics instead. Which fiber optic cable sounds the best?

Ge0


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Ge0 said:


> Like JimmyDee I have always been a sucker for cool looking interconnects. The brand SkiZer used in his GT3 build was fuuking phenomenal.
> 
> I've been using this brand to make my own cables for years:
> 
> ...











New Hollow-core Optical Fiber Is Clearer Than Glass


An optical fiber with a hollow core could transmit higher power than standard solid-core fibers.




spectrum.ieee.org




Probably this one lol
Once again, probably a completely inaudible difference.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

bnae38 said:


> No fancy degree here lol. I have an associate's in electronics.
> 
> 
> I would argue good ol fashioned experience has more to do with ones abilities.. .


Nahhh. Screw you then. You're not worthy 😀 😉 .

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> New Hollow-core Optical Fiber Is Clearer Than Glass
> 
> 
> An optical fiber with a hollow core could transmit higher power than standard solid-core fibers.
> ...


I'm not sending signal Kilometers. I'm sending signal 1 meter...

Ge0


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Ge0 said:


> Nahhh. Screw you then. You're not worthy 😀 😉 .
> 
> Ge0


Man I can't even tell where you're from.. sometimes it says germany, sometimes the US...


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

To quote myself about some wires I braided similar to a couple audio-fool, I mean phile companies.



Theslaking said:


> No I don't think some magic fairy came down and sprinkled acoustical dust on the wires that created a forcefield that protects the signal from noise and only lets quality audio signals pass because the wires are arranged in a criss cross pattern. I just think it looks cool and unique to car installs


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

We did do a little study 20 years ago. Copper, silver, and aluminium all sent the same exact signal down a wire at low power. I honestly can't remember what it was. Something like 1000w. We also measured signals on a RCA. There was a difference when we intentionally tried to introduce noise. Other than that there was no difference between .5v and 10v signals via the same adjustable eq.

So what discovered is in a noisy situation there is a difference in signal at the other end even if it's not audible. And obviously if it is.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Ge0 said:


> I'm not sending signal Kilometers. I'm sending signal 1 meter...
> 
> Ge0


Hey, you asked hahah


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

bnae38 said:


> Man I can't even tell where you're from.. sometimes it says germany, sometimes the US...


The VPN on my work computer is screwy. If I use Firefox browser it says I am in Germany. If I use Microsoft Edge it says I am from the USA. I expect this has to do with the proxy my IT department has hardwired into each browser. I assure you, either way I am usually in Metro Detroit.

This gets troublesome when some web sites kick me off because I am from the wrong country.

Ge0


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

This reminds me of that other controversial thread “High end amps a Myth”....

Amp is an amp... therefore cable is a cable?

Personally I have heard differences in cables whilst doing a side by side test outside a car...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I’ve heard differences in high quality rca interconnects compared to cheap $50 below ones. I disagree with the engineers


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> I’ve heard differences in high quality rca interconnects compared to cheap $50 below ones. I disagree with the engineers


It's a mind fuuk. You were expecting to hear a difference so you did. The psych in psycho-acoustics.

I will bet $100 you could not tell the difference between cables via a true ABX blind test. You chose your favorite most expensive cables. I'll select products from Radio Shack, Target, and Wallmart.

Ge0


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I’ll bet you $500 I can. I went from stinger 4000 to 9000 and I heard a difference from the day I switched. There is a difference in how blue Jean cables LC1 sound from the 9000s as well. I’m running LC1 to my subs and 9000s mid bass mids and highs.

same could be said for you who don’t want to believe it. You don’t hear a difference bc you want to believe it’s snake oil. Btw cables have to be broken in too


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> I’ll bet you $500 I can. I went from stinger 4000 to 9000 and I heard a difference from the day I switched. There is a difference in how blue Jean cables LC1 sound from the 9000s as well. I’m running LC1 to my subs and 9000s mid bass mids and highs


Game on cup cake. And I say that light hearted vs. disrespect. If you want to fork out $500 for my $100 that's a no brainer. Where are you located? My local audio society has run this experiment over 30 times with like minded individuals. ABX has a perfect record of dis-bunking myths. The only caveat is that the blind comparison equipment is in South East Michigan.

Ge0


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

$500 to $500 northwest Tennessee


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I’m telling you what I hear not what some test says. It’s not really that important for me to drive to meeeeeechigan I have heard it with my own ears that 9000s will produce more clarity in an install of a car underneath floor mats running along power and grounds


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

bnae38 said:


> Man I can't even tell where you're from.. sometimes it says germany, sometimes the US...


See what I mean? Spooky man. Spooky.

In all seriousness I respect your input as an audio electronics specialist regardless of your degree. The most brilliant Electrical Engineer I have ever known had a high school education. Its all about what you learn and what you chose to do with it. That's why I mentioned you specifically. I respect you.

Besides, I moved to a management position a few years ago. I am loosing my edge.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> I’m telling you what I hear not what some test says. It’s not really that important for me to drive to meeeeeechigan I have heard it with my own ears that 9000s will produce more clarity in an install of a car underneath floor mats running along power and grounds


Excuses . Just kidding. No, not really 😀


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Disagreeing with electrical engineers, some with their masters is rather amusing. I’m slowly working towards my electrical engineering associate and can’t wait to be working on a robot at Bosh and have the janitor disagree with my troubleshooting methodology 🙄


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Before anyone gets butt hurt, I realize that a janitor very well might know more than me one day, and I’m not suggesting that an engineer is the god of electricity. However, when comparing an electrical engineers knowledge of signal transfer, one who is balls deep in the car audio hobby, to, a, say car salesmen deep in the hobby, let’s be realistic about who likely has the skillset to properly digest the information.
When I first started being active on here I was all loosing sleep and waking up in cold sweats over phase at crossover. Somewhere I read some audiophiles talking about how detrimental crossovers were no matter how smooth the response was. I came in here with two guns blazing about big widebanders above dash and sh;t. After some people shedding some light on the subject for me I was able to see beyond the magical audiophile ears thing. I’m absolutely sure I can find a $2,000 water bowl for my cat. Maybe even something that creates positive ions to bring penny kittys chi closer to god🤷🏼‍♂️


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Ge0 said:


> Game on cup cake. And I say that light hearted vs. disrespect. If you want to fork out $500 for my $100 that's a no brainer. Where are you located? My local audio society has run this experiment over 30 times with like minded individuals. ABX has a perfect record of dis-bunking myths. The only caveat is that the blind comparison equipment is in South East Michigan.
> 
> Ge0


Please keep us all updated on this if and when it comes to fruition. I have $100 against the fancy cables members. Sh;t, I’ll throw another $100 that says a if geo has an all metal lawnmower, the handle bars are just as good as broken in audiophile cables. 🍻
I did just notice an interesting caveat. Fancy wires running along a cars floorboard adjacent to power wire. So are the signal wires being tested on a bench to test “the sound”, or are we running them through a beehive around a pool filter and up a tree?


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

420tabbycat said:


> Disagreeing with electrical engineers, some with their masters is rather amusing. I’m slowly working towards my electrical engineering associate and can’t wait to be working on a robot at Bosh and have the janitor disagree with my troubleshooting methodology 🙄


what's amusing? who the hell do you think designs and builds cables, physicist and engineers. with your train of thought than you and others are amusing as well disagreeing that cables do not make all the difference if used in the right system.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I’m kinda a carl sagen fan and he used to say “extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence“

“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.“


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I've seen science that shows different electrical signals are transmitted from our ears to our brains from human to human hearing the exact same sounds. I've read a lot on psychoaoustics. I've never seen any science that shows a low level electrical signal changes over short distances depending on known quality conductors. 

The funny part is once you read your first explanation of psycho acoustics your perception of sound is forever changed.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Porsche said:


> ... who the hell do you think designs and builds cables, physicist and engineers....?


While it is probably be true that electrical engineers spec ("design" might be too strong of a word for wire) some audio cables, you forgot to include the flimflam marketers that actually "design" others.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Clvol1255 said:


> Btw cables have to be broken in too


How exactly do you _'break-in'_ an RCA cable?

We're talking about an RCA cable, that is running (on average) a couple volts through it, and milliamps of current.
It is a static piece of copper, thats only function is to transfer electrons from one location to another.

Yes; the electrons move through the copper wire... in a similar way that water passes through a pipe.
But that's like saying; your water pipes perform better, after you've had a few showers.

Things with mechanical movement; like speakers, need to be broken-in... wire does not.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

jimmydee said:


> How exactly do you _'break-in'_ an RCA cable?
> 
> We're talking about an RCA cable, that is running (on average) a couple volts through it, and milliamps of current.
> It is a static piece of copper, thats only function is to transfer electrons from one location to another.
> ...


I don’t know, I use only a special production run of incandescent light bulbs made by GE between March 15 1976 and February 9 1980. I pay $100 Per pack of four and need a run in of about 50 hours to really get the spectrum only lumenaphiles like myself can appreciate. No spectrograph has ever picked up the subtitles in laboratory testing but I can definitely notice the difference.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

You are assuming that it's the engineers making the claims. It's probably not - it's more likely the sales team. 

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I’m flushing out the old electrons from my interconnects, I’ll report back when my cables are free from these troublesome nuisances.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Ok **** it who cares buy whichever rca that you want or can afford. Always has to be some internet guru trying to make somebody feel like they asked a dumb question on here


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Would you explain dielectric polarization in audio interconnects? Or post some literature on the subject. When I googled audiophile cables I got tired of scrolling through the titles including snake oil and similar headings.


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

I don’t think it’s bad to buy what you want with any of the audio stuff don’t get me wrong. I have had the old “gamma geometry” cables from IXOS and also some of the fabric sleeved ones from the big brands. There are definite differences in feel, aesthetic, how securely cables will fit connectors etc and flexibility. I think the point is once you get to a certain level diminishing returns is huge on wire and cable. $20-30 MSRP RCAs are too cheap for me mostly due to durability concerns. Especially for DIY a big factory in feeling like you’ve done a great install can come down to the install parts.

For me if it is flexible, silver tinned OFC and the jacketing materials and connectors are good quality I’m good with it. For my next purchase it will likely be the 8000 series. It sounds like there are potentially some tangible differences with 9000 (twice as many strands etc) but not worth it to me for the price difference. I have run a lot of the Kicker RCAs and they’re of good quality too imo.

There’s a lot of incentive to get you to buy higher end cables... in most shops wire is the best margin at around 80 points.

I think it would be cool to see if someone can actually tell the difference, mostly because this topic will always come up! For the blind test if you are willing to make the trip to beautiful SE MI to see Ge0 I’m willing to pick up a standard award ticket on Delta to make it happen... haven’t been able to use miles w/COVID 😀


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

And I apologize for my making light of the subject, just seems to have been beaten to death.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

jtrosky said:


> You are assuming that it's the engineers making the claims. It's probably not - it's more likely the sales team.
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk


thats your assumption and opinion, means nothing and total hypothetical


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

No engineers will knock something if it’s going to improve the bottom line and has no negatives... just in case that isn’t obvious. If you can sell a good quality product for 4X-10x as much due to marketing and it helps the annual bonus who is going to say no to that? It’s genius 😀


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Where is the science, geo is ready to put his whole academic career on the line here😉


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Clvol1255 said:


> Exactly the engineers of diyma are so much more qualified than the engineers of the successful engineers of stinger electronics. Yeah the only atmosphere I’m talking about using them in is a car. Not only do we now have internet tough guys we also have these internet geniuses of science and physics. I don’t give a ef what “master degree” you have. The lead engineers at amp global are more qualified.


OK


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Porsche said:


> thats your assumption and opinion, means nothing and total hypothetical


As it is to assume that the engineers are making the claims. 

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

420tabbycat said:


> Disagreeing with electrical engineers, some with their masters is rather amusing. I’m slowly working towards my electrical engineering associate and can’t wait to be working on a robot at Bosh and have the janitor disagree with my troubleshooting methodology 🙄


Watch it. That's a cocky attitude. That janitor may have years of experience troubleshooting robots. Maybe he's working the job to keep himself around the tech while he is putting himself through school. I've seen it...

Ge0


----------



## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Crosstalk is much higher in good quality cables as well and none of you have mentioned it


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

jtrosky said:


> As it is to assume that the engineers are making the claims.
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk


exactly, i do not need you or anyone else trying to explain anything to me. i know what i hear and observe in my home system when i have changed my cables etc. you can believe whatever you want but stop trying to push your thoughts on others because NONE of you have proven anything. these topics are like discussing politics


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Ge0 said:


> Watch it. That's a cocky attitude. That janitor may have years of experience troubleshooting robots. Maybe he's working the job to keep himself around the tech while he is putting himself through school. I've seen it...
> 
> Ge0


Shortly after posting that I realized how cliche it is to pick out the janitor. Overall though it seems that a general laborer and a technician is a decent comparison to a general audio enthusiast and a audio enthusiast with an electrical engineering degree. 
why are the only people getting angry are the ones who spent big bucks on cables 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

Soon this will be another full blown politics thread. 🍿


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

What about geos crew of audio nerds, that should be a solid checkmark in the snake oil column. I don’t take geo as a bs er 

_ if PT Barnum were come back to earth it would likely be as an audio cable salesman._


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

FWIW in my experience engineers who don’t show up cocky end up being much more successful... it’s great to be confident but important to remember that it takes everyone to make the team that’s going to deliver something amazing.

Our site wouldn’t be open right now if it wasn’t for the janitorial crew going above and beyond in cleaning the facility to keep it safe to run just as an example 😀




420tabbycat said:


> Shortly after posting that I realized how cliche it is to pick out the janitor. Overall though it seems that a general laborer and a technician is a decent comparison to a general audio enthusiast and a audio enthusiast with an electrical engineering degree.
> why are the only people getting angry are the ones who spent big bucks on cables 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Porsche said:


> exactly, i do not need you or anyone else trying to explain anything to me. i know what i hear and observe in my home system when i have changed my cables etc. you can believe whatever you want but stop trying to push your thoughts on others because NONE of you have proven anything. these topics are like discussing politics


Ah - I didn't realize that only you are allowed to give you opinions! First of all, I never even replied to you - I was replying to the guy that has since removed all text from his posts.... I can give my opinions (aka "push my thoughts") on things just like you can, my friend. Let's face it, you haven't proven anything either. 

You are in the camp that "if it costs more, it's almost always better" (you have said as much in another thread about speakers). I am not. You are free to express your opinions just as I am free to do the same.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I removed mine bc I don’t feel like arguing over the Internet forums especially with this crew who ban ppl for stating their opinions in politics that differ from their own. I have sold a couple items on here and I need to be able to communicate with the buyers about tracking info and such so it’s not worth chancing it


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

jtrosky said:


> Ah - I didn't realize that only you are allowed to give you opinions! First of all, I never even replied to you - I was replying to the guy that has since removed all text from his posts.... I can give my opinions (aka "push my thoughts") on things just like you can, my friend. Let's face it, you haven't proven anything either.
> 
> You are in the camp that "if it costs more, it's almost always better" (you have said as much in another thread about speakers). I am not. You are free to express your opinions just as I am free to do the same.


i never said anything about cost and cables. i also didn't say everything that cost more is always better. what i said is comparing i think i said $500 or 700 dollar speaker will almost always outperform a $100 driver if installed equally.

like i said, you can believe anything u want but when you start making fun of folks and trying to talk scientific fact well, that is total BS, i see ole neibur is in your camp, bravo to having a new fan


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

This is an open forum, and we are free to voice our opinions... but they are only that; our opinions.
I like a good debate every once in a while. But there comes a point where you need to concede that nobody will win. 
This is one of those occasions...

It's like me trying to argue with my wife over why a Porsche 911 Turbo S is a superior vehicle to her Audi A4. I can talk for hours about: 641 horsepower, rear wheel steering, 0-60 in 2.7 seconds, and carbon ceramic brakes... but in the end, she would ask; _"how many of our teenage kids fit in the back seat?"_

In my mind; the Porsche is the ultimate vehicle. Superior to almost everything. But in her mind; the 4-door sedan is the winner. No logic or argument would convince either of us that the other person's opinion is more correct than our own.


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

It’s a shame, I personally love to be corrected and learn something I considered funny is actually serious. It’s nourishment for the soul. 
I’m obviously guilty, so, saving the light spirit towards such a serious matter, what are we supposed to hear from an audiophile cable?I’m starting to have a healthy amount of quality equipment. I sure wouldn’t want all that money and effort wasted on regular old monoprice shielded cables.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Porsche said:


> i never said anything about cost and cables. i also didn't say everything that cost more is always better. what i said is comparing i think i said $500 or 700 dollar speaker will almost always outperform a $100 driver if installed equally.
> 
> like i said, you can believe anything u want but when you start making fun of folks and trying to talk scientific fact well, that is total BS, i see ole neibur is in your camp, bravo to having a new fan


First, I never "made fun" of anyone. I also never tried to "talk scientific fact". I don't know where you are getting this stuff from! 

Aren't you doing the exact same thing that I did when you "assume" that a $100 speaker can't outperform a $500 speaker? That is an assumption and a hypothetical - exactly what you accused me of! You are assuming something based strictly on the items cost.


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## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

I haven’t seen anyone get banned in one of the politics threads for expressing their opinion.


Clvol1255 said:


> I removed mine bc I don’t feel like arguing over the Internet forums especially with this crew who ban ppl for stating their opinions in politics that differ from their own. I have sold a couple items on here and I need to be able to communicate with the buyers about tracking info and such so it’s not worth chancing it


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

jtrosky said:


> First, I never "made fun" of anyone. I also never tried to "talk scientific fact". I don't know where you are getting this stuff from!
> 
> Aren't you doing the exact same thing that I did when you "assume" that a $100 speaker can't outperform a $500 speaker? That is an assumption and a hypothetical - exactly what you accused me of! You are assuming something based strictly on the items cost.


i stand behind my comment about the speakers, if installed properly and equally the $700 tweeter/mid will outperform the $100 equivalent 99% of the time. i never said that about cables but i do believe if you have a high resolution and detailed system than cables do make a difference, in my experience anyways.

as far as your 1st sentence i wasn't aiming that directly at you but at this topic in general


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I have searched this subject on here. I didn't find anyone posting scientific evidence of one cable being better. Just opinions. I would like to see evidence. I believe what I experience but I am always open to a different view. 

If someone on the other side has some evidence or verifiable facts please share them. Even if it's through pm. This stuff really interest me because our brains are amazing and crazy at the same time. 

My experience with engineers is that they worked harder in school than someone else so they believe they are smarter. They usually are not in my field. I have have to work with engineers and architect's all the time. They never have a subconscious reference for the real world or practical application and it permanently holds them back from gaining the common sense necessary to be truly intelligent.


----------



## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

Awesome stereotype there but I’m sure you already know that’s just what it was...



Theslaking said:


> I have searched this subject on here. I didn't find anyone posting scientific evidence of one cable being better. Just opinions. I would like to see evidence. I believe what I experience but I am always open to a different view.
> 
> If someone on the other side has some evidence or verifiable facts please share them. Even if it's through pm. This stuff really interest me because our brains are amazing and crazy at the same time.
> 
> My experience with engineers is that they worked harder in school than someone else so they believe they are smarter. They usually are not in my field. I have have to work with engineers and architect's all the time. They never have a subconscious reference for the real world or practical application and it permanently holds them back from gaining the common sense necessary to be truly intelligent.


----------



## DiamondFanatic (Dec 26, 2007)

I agree with it for speakers as well (that more expensive speakers can perform significantly better). 

At the end of the day this is a luxury good type hobby. There is a lot that goes into value for the consumer


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Facts, scholarly articles, anyone, anything? Or do we just have to take slouches like erinh as gospel...


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

420tabbycat said:


> Facts, scholarly articles, anyone, anything? Or do we just have to take slouches like erinh as gospel...


why do you have to have someones approval of a product to try it for yourself and see if it works for you


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Porsche said:


> why do you have to have someones approval of a product to try it for yourself and see if it works for you


I like to base my purchases and equipment on science, I’m not rich.


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

More so, the scientific process isn’t someone.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

First, why does it matter what each person thinks about a cables sonic signature? It only matters what you think. If someone wants to buy very expensive cables or multiple 50K monoblock amps for their home system why would anyone care? With that said, I was always curious if expensive cables make a difference. I watched a video recently of a very well known audio reviewer talking to a very successful audio shop owner in NYC that has sold high end audio equipment for decades. He basically said he can't in good conscience sell very high priced cables to anyone that doesn't have an extreme high end system. He said even though he makes WAY more profit on high end cables than anything else, he just can't do it. This very well known reviewer seemed to agree with him. Here's a good video from a engineer talking about his thoughts on cables. He's talking about speaker cables but I believe his opinions on all cables is similar.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

It doesn’t matter what anyone does. The conversation is about the science. I don’t think anyone is trying to change anyone else’s mind who doesn’t want it changed. Someone who is interested and confused about this might form an opinion based in sound reasoning.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Porsche said:


> .............i see ole neibur is in your camp, bravo to having a new fan


I wasn't the only one to "like" his post. I do that from time to time with posts I agree with. Many of us do actually. Nice of you to notice. 

Merry Christmas to you Porsche.


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Somewhere far far away in a distant galaxy this thread began, with someone asking a question. That poster is the most important part of the conversation as they are possibly going to spend too much money on marketing malarkey. In the absence of any proof that dropping big coin on cables they might hopefully save the money.


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Henrique Duarte said:


> I am looking for RCA cables to use with my tweeters, mid-range and mid-bass, in an active system.
> 
> After reading about different cables, I saw many comments stating that one model widened the sound stage, other boosted bass notes, and another highlighted the top end frequencies. In similar way, some cables are regarded as neutral, others as warm or analytical.
> 
> ...


After all the noise, and if you’re even following this mess, what are your thoughts? We’ve all forgotten the originator had a question.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

420tabbycat said:


> Facts, scholarly articles, anyone, anything? Or do we just have to take slouches like erinh as gospel...


I may be more of a slouch that Erin.
All the cables basically transmit the signal the same, so it is other things, like noise, which differentiates the cables.

There is a fellow that runs two different cabls into a differential amplifier and has shown that when the signals are added 180 degrees out of phase they sum to zero. And he has tested lots of interconnects.

It is also a fact that differential cable is more immune to interference than single ended RCAs... and the CMRR is the term they use.

It is also a fact that the shield being foil, or braided sleeve, are designedly for different frequency speactra, or types of noise... and some cables have both a braided sleeve and a foil wrap.

And it is also fact that how, and where, the shield is tied to ground can have measurable difference.

And also factual that the magnetic interference is difficult to shield against.
And also a fact that the cables can have differing capacitance.

People who are serious about running in high noise environments use differential cables, which does not include myself. And they can, and do, run cables hundreds of meters.




Patriot83 said:


> First, why does it matter what each person thinks about a cables sonic signature? It only matters what you think. If someone wants to buy very expensive cables or multiple 50K monoblock amps for their home system why would anyone care? ...
> ...


Because poeple like to tell others what to do?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> Crosstalk is much higher in good quality cables as well and none of you have mentioned it


What? Do you have any idea what crosstalk actually is?

Crosstalk is when one wire carrying signal injects its signal into another wire through magnetic coupling. This appears as noise to the wire being injected as the crosstalk was not part of the original signal. If anything you want LOWER crosstalk in a good quality cable.

Ge0


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Holmz said:


> I may be more of a slouch that Erin.
> All the cables basically transmit the signal the same, so it is other things, like noise, which differentiates the cables.
> 
> There is a fellow that runs two different cabls into a differential amplifier and has shown that when the signals are added 180 degrees out of phase they sum to zero. And he has tested lots of interconnects.
> ...


Thanks ol chap, I didn’t catch anything about sound signature/warmth, dielectric polarization or exotic metals. Assuming we buy decently shielded moderately priced cables run away from obvious sources of interference, seems like the op, and the rest of us forced to spend big only where needed can invest in other more important items. 🍻


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> What? Do you have any idea what crosstalk actually is?
> 
> Crosstalk is when one wire carrying signal injects its signal into another wire through magnetic coupling. This appears as noise to the wire being injected as the crosstalk was not part of the original signal. If anything you want LOWER crosstalk in a good quality cable.
> 
> Ge0


I should’ve said crosstalk rejection but I assumed you’d know what was meant and yes I know exactly what crosstalk is. The more times they’re twisted and more layers or shielding the better the crosstalk REJECTION. Anyway you’ve got your stance and I’ve got mine. They’re opinions. Do you want to sell your utopia WM 3.5s?


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I may be more of a slouch that Erin.
> All the cables basically transmit the signal the same, so it is other things, like noise, which differentiates the cables.
> 
> There is a fellow that runs two different cabls into a differential amplifier and has shown that when the signals are added 180 degrees out of phase they sum to zero. And he has tested lots of interconnects.
> ...


Hit the nail on the head... facts


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

I was interested in what may make the Stinger 9000 cable sound different. Sol I went to their website and read this puke:

Car Audio’s Ultimate Interconnect

Featuring B.O.D.A technology: *B*alanced *O*ptimized *D*ual *A*lloy connection *<--- I admit this is a catchy acronym*
pure silver conductors for full midrange and high frequencies, *<-- so high frequencies go down the silver wire? Smart. How does this work?*
ultra-long grain pure OFC copper for bass frequencies, *<-- long grain copper? Whatever it is it appears the bass frequencies go down it. Long grain for long wavelengths? Smart. How does this work?*
Separate oversized OFC and Silver conductors provide unmatched sound quality *<-- it goes without saying. Wait, aren't they all tied together at the RCA jack's tip?*
rhodium plated RCA ends for conductivity. *<-- wait, rhodium is an inferior conductor to silver and copper. Why plate your RCA tips in it? Wouldn't this negate the affect of using silver and copper? Why not use gold?*
Rhodium Plated Split-tip machined metal connector allows better signal transfer *<-- I'm skeptical about this*
Double Twisted pair winding patterns improve clarity and broaden dynamic range *<-- isn't twisted pair used in a signal / return configuration to minimize noise broadcast / induction? A twisted pair of like signals does nothing. And they have 3 pairs of signal / signal twisted pairs per RCA tip. Hmmm...*
Black mesh protective jacket looks great and minimizes friction for easy install *<-- It does look cool.*
Precision Machined “Locking” Metal Ends for the ultimate signal transfer that won’t vibrate off *<-- I like this.*
Triple shielding construction for increased noise rejection (dual mylar + braided shield) *<-- I like this.*
Directional double twisted-pair construction provides protection against induced interference *<-- normally it would. But not how its being used in this cable. And what makes it directional, the arrows on the cable?*
Molded strain reliefs for extra durability *<-- Got to appreciate this.*
Mono cable design with undersized stopper for ease of installation *<-- my brain hurts after reading this*
Pure Silver, the best metal conductor known to man, run in dual tightly twisted leads and paired with a separate drain lead for unmatched transmission of mid to high frequencies. * <-- why do the silver wires have their own drain lead? Oh, high frequencies get their own ground return. That's smart. Wait, isn't this drain lead tied to the other drain lead at the RCA terminating sleeve?*
Oversized Ultra OFC Long Grain Copper conductors, run separately, in dual tightly twisted leads and also paired with a separate drain lead for deep bass reproduction. *<-- Here we go with the long grain copper again. Bass frequencies get their own ground return too. Smart. You wouldn't want the two to mix. But wait, aren't they tied together at the RCA sleeves anyway?*
2 layers of EMI noise rejecting shielding combined with a full metal braided shield to create an impermeable noise rejecting outer jacket. *<-- Yep, that's the plan. Braided metal shielding is good.*
Continuous connection construction (C3 Tech) provides unmatched signal transfer with no solder joints for true channel separation and connection reliability *<-- Uhhh. OK, if you say so...*
Then only the best silver solder joins each of the individual 12 conductors to the RCA end resulting in crystal clear signal transmission with no coloration, uncompromised tonal accuracy, and authoritative low frequency impact. *<-- wait, didn't they just say no solder joints?*

While there are some good merits about this cable construction the underlying tech (multiple twisted pairs) is unnecessary and not properly applied. The [email protected] spewed out about silver and copper wire being better for different frequencies is laughable. The shielding is welcome although I doubt two mylar layers beyond the braided layer add anything. That and dedicated drain wires, really?

Long grain copper shows up in no scientific or metallurgical article I could find. Although, their was an article reviewing AudioQuest interconnects in The Absolute Sound. My good ole buddy Bob Harley at it again.

Just my ramblings,

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> I should’ve said crosstalk rejection but I assumed you’d know what was meant and yes I know exactly what crosstalk is. The more times they’re twisted and more layers or shielding the better the crosstalk REJECTION. Anyway you’ve got your stance and I’ve got mine. They’re opinions. Do you want to sell your utopia WM 3.5s?


Sorry man. I didn't make that assumption / connection. 

Like I said earlier, it's OK to agree to disagree

Nope, not ready to sell the 3.5WM's 

Ge0


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

The directional aspect has to do with tying the shielding in only at the input side of the cable.

I actually did this on the rcas I made years ago fwiw, it didn't seem to do much. I still use them though . The noise problems I had were from my 3sixty.3 fwiw... 

Edit: In this example, the rca is between the dsp and amp.. 

At the time, it made some sense to me to try this. In theory it would shunt any noise pickup on the braided shield to the dsp rca output ground. If the dsp had a single ended (hard grounded shield) then it made some sense, I guess.. Theory is to keep that noise away from the rca output ground (amp input) side.

There is a separate return as well in the cables connected from the same rca cable input shell to rca output shell.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

bnae38 said:


> The directional aspect has to do with tying the shielding in only at the input side of the cable.
> 
> I actually did this on the rcas I made years ago fwiw, it didn't seem to do much. I still use them though . The noise problems I had were from my 3sixty.3 fwiw...
> 
> ...


I found this photo of the 9000 cable on Stingers website:









Here is the cheaper 8000 series:









Typically drains are non-insulated wire which touch the braid / shield thus making electrical contact. Stinger is using drains as ground returns. You can see in the photo the drains are non-insulated and wrapped with the twisted pair bundles. I would assume all three drains touch the braid or mylar layers. So...

But, it is plausible they leave the shield open at the receiving end and only tie the shield drain to the RCA ring at the sending end. That is if there is an isolating layer between shields and signal drains. But then can you call them drains or just ground wires?

Also, I wonder if the high frequency drain wire is silver and if the low frequency drain wire is long grain oxygen free copper 

Ge0


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Similar bs, similar efficaciousness, ~$20 ? 🤔


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

420tabbycat said:


> I’m flushing out the old electrons from my interconnects, I’ll report back when my cables are free from these troublesome nuisances.


ROTFLMAO !!!!

PLEASE post a pic of just exactly HOW you are doing the electron flushing.

And even though I am 58yo.... I HOPE it includes a toilet !!! LOL


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

And SORRY if my last post took this thread back to the gutter from the much higher levels it is TRYING to achieve. Its just 420's post had me spitting coffee and I felt it needed a thank you and a thoughtful reply!!


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

seafish said:


> And SORRY if my last post took this thread back to the gutter from the much higher levels it is TRYING to achieve. Its just 420's post had me spitting coffee and I felt it needed a thank you and a thoughtful reply!!


🐈


----------



## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> I found this photo of the 9000 cable on Stingers website:
> View attachment 287056
> 
> 
> ...


Yes to the very last part. I truly believe the stinger 9000s are legit. I’ve been running them on 8 channels for about 3 months now. I just measured my headunit at the rcas going into the new helix I just installed(Kenwood excelon) cranked all the way to 40/40 and the o scope read a clean signal right at 4.92V. I did this to set the gain on helix. Nothing on topic just thought I’d share Kenwood a really are clean maxed out. 1khz was used at zero overlap

I’ve ran the 4000 and 8000 stingers and beside the cool look I could tell zero difference in them. 8000s have the exact internals as the 4000s besides the black sleeving over the wiring. I’ve literally cut a set of 8000s and inspected them after I broke one unattaching it. 4000 is every bit as good as 8000. If you don’t want to go to 9000 just buy 4000 and put tech flex over it or better yet wrap it in Tessa tape then tech flex it and you’ll have a better cable than 8000


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

The video below should help bring this thread back onto the "science" track with the cable "null tester" that Ethan Winer built--


While I have posted it before, it is worth rewatching all of it even though it is 30 minutes--








and here is a link to a discussion about his test video on audiosciencereview.com









Ethan Winer Builds a Wire Null Tester


Ethan has built a null tester for testing audio interconnects to reveal differences between them. He has a new video on it which is kind of long on intro but then gets to the meat of the argument toward the last third:




www.audiosciencereview.com


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Power CablesCables
> 
> 
> 
> ...


comedy GOLD!


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I’ll explain it if you promise not to mock me. First cryogenic freezing weakens the bonding of the stale electrons with the metal from the supernova that formed them eons ago, that’s why such extremely cold temperatures are necessary. Then you run a moderate signal produced by soviet tube amps, the gentle distortion gives a slight “scrub” on the atoms. After that just finish off with Foreigners “Don’t Stop Believing” to flush any remaining quantum irregularities 👍


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Porsche said:


> exactly, i do not need you or anyone else trying to explain anything to me. i know what i hear and observe in my home system when i have changed my cables etc. you can believe whatever you want but stop trying to push your thoughts on others because NONE of you have proven anything. these topics are like discussing politics


*NONE of you have proven anything. these topics are like discussing politics*

Well actually no. there are many published studies on speaker cables, interconnects, special power cords and all sorts of other audiophile black magic. 

Scientifically conducted ABX blind studies. Real data and real evidence demonstrate that cables make no difference. 

That's nothing like politics.


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

jimmydee said:


> This is an open forum, and we are free to voice our opinions... but they are only that; our opinions.
> I like a good debate every once in a while. But there comes a point where you need to concede that nobody will win.
> This is one of those occasions...
> 
> ...





jimmydee said:


> .. but in the end, she would ask; _"how many of our teenage kids fit in the back seat?"_


More comedy GOLD


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I tried to bring it back to the original poster but I think he found a different forum with grown ups.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> Yes to the very last part. I truly believe the stinger 9000s are legit. I’ve been running them on 8 channels for about 3 months now. I just measured my headunit at the rcas going into the new helix I just installed(Kenwood excelon) cranked all the way to 40/40 and the o scope read a clean signal right at 4.92V. I did this to set the gain on helix. Nothing on topic just thought I’d share Kenwood a really are clean maxed out. 1khz was used at zero overlap
> 
> I’ve ran the 4000 and 8000 stingers and beside the cool look I could tell zero difference in them. 8000s have the exact internals as the 4000s besides the black sleeving over the wiring. I’ve literally cut a set of 8000s and inspected them after I broke one unattaching it. 4000 is every bit as good as 8000. If you don’t want to go to 9000 just buy 4000 and put tech flex over it or better yet wrap it in Tessa tape then tech flex it and you’ll have a better cable than 8000


It's interesting you say this. The 8000 series has a proper shield. Thee 4000 series has no shield, it's just a twisted pair.

The main difference between 8000 series and 9000 series is the 8000 series uses silver plated copper wire vs. the 9000 using separate pure silver and long grain copper wire. Oh, and the 9000 series has 2x the amount of signal conductors.

For bnae38, The Stinger 4000 series wires have no shielding but are still DIRECTIONAL twisted pair .

Ge0


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Exact same besides the marlr shield and drain. I’ll post pictures of them I have them all in front of me. I’m not cutting open the 9000s but they’ve got 3 times the twisted pair as the 8000 and 3-4 times the shielding


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Theslaking said:


> I have searched this subject on here. I didn't find anyone posting scientific evidence of one cable being better. Just opinions. I would like to see evidence. I believe what I experience but I am always open to a different view.
> 
> If someone on the other side has some evidence or verifiable facts please share them. Even if it's through pm. This stuff really interest me because our brains are amazing and crazy at the same time.
> 
> My experience with engineers is that they worked harder in school than someone else so they believe they are smarter. They usually are not in my field. I have have to work with engineers and architect's all the time. They never have a subconscious reference for the real world or practical application and it permanently holds them back from gaining the common sense necessary to be truly intelligent.


Here is some science:








MEASUREMENTS: Speaker Cables / Wires (Canare, Kimber, and the "Frankenstein" Zip Cord)


A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.




archimago.blogspot.com





Frankenstien cable vs top end. The frankenstein cable is hilarious you have to have a look at the link. But there are also many published studies that support the conclusion here. Properly constructed cables all sound the same whether they are $10 or $10,000.

There was a guy involved in Macintosh I think, he did some ABX blind testing using hi end speaker cables and wire coat hangers made into speaker cables. No difference.

It's all psycho acoustics and confirmation bias.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

seafish said:


> ROTFLMAO !!!!
> 
> PLEASE post a pic of just exactly HOW you are doing the electron flushing.
> 
> And even though I am 58yo.... I HOPE it includes a toilet !!! LOL


Bum and toilet jokes NEVER go out of fashion no matter how old you are


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

420tabbycat said:


> I’ll explain it if you promise not to mock me. First cryogenic freezing weakens the bonding of the stale electrons with the metal from the supernova that formed them eons ago, that’s why such extremely cold temperatures are necessary. Then you run a moderate signal produced by soviet tube amps, the gentle distortion gives a slight “scrub” on the atoms. After that just finish off with Foreigners “Don’t Stop Believing” to flush any remaining quantum irregularities 👍


You're not doing it properly tabby. If you want to frighten the electrons away as well as the quantum irregularities you have to play Nickelback


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> Exact same besides the marlr shield and drain. I’ll post pictures of them I have them all in front of me. I’m not cutting open the 9000s but they’ve got 3 times the twisted pair as the 8000 and 3-4 times the shielding


Oh cripe. Don't cut up a $200 cable!

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

I still want to know how Stinger engineers get the high frequencies to go through silver conductors and low frequencies to go through the long grain oxygen free copper wires. Brilliance? Or, bullsh!t?

Ge0


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Ge0 said:


> ultra-long grain pure OFC copper for bass frequencies, *<-- long grain copper? Whatever it is it appears the bass frequencies go down it. Long grain for long wavelengths? Smart. How does this work?*


This is talking about the boundaries between the crystals that form when a metal is cooled. Just like anything else the slower something is cooled, the larger the crystals that form. The IDEA is that there is a difference in conductivity between the solid copper within the crystal grains and where the current has to flow to the next grain. Thats why you will see some super expensive cables use mono-crystaline copper as well.
Wether that has any merit or not, I dont know. But here is some reference material for what im talking about.


https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsaelm.0c00311


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Ge0 said:


> I still want to know how Stinger engineers get the high frequencies to go through silver conductors and low frequencies to go through the long grain oxygen free copper wires. Brilliance? Or, bullsh!t?
> 
> Ge0


*STINGER ELECTRONICS*
We design and engineer technology that makes your drive more fun. Built for audiophiles by audiophiles our products span infotainment and radio upgrades, audio upgrades and all the installation accessories to make those enhancements easy.

Stinger has everything a true audiophile, and passionate accessorizer needs to upgrade a vehicle's sound or infotainment system, or upfit your boat, SxS, or car with the latest accessories. Stinger sets the bar for badass sound performance and is the go-to brand for car audio enthusiasts, competitors, and car tuners across the glo

Above is Stingers stated design philosophy taken directly from their website.

As you can see, it uses the words "fun" and "easy" and "built by audiophiles" while NOT necessarily mentioning electrical engineers. IMO, the closest this statement gets to engineering and build is "badass sound performance".

While I do realize that Stinger builds some decent, and a few maybe even excellent products for the money, as you can see from their own words, their design philosophy embodies marketing MORE then electrical engineering.

Or maybe they hire electrical engineers to do the marketing while they utilize marketers to do the engineering. IDK!!! JK/LOL!!


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> This is talking about the boundaries between the crystals that form when a metal is cooled. Just like anything else the slower something is cooled, the larger the crystals that form. The IDEA is that there is a difference in conductivity between the solid copper within the crystal grains and where the current has to flow to the next grain. Thats why you will see some super expensive cables use mono-crystaline copper as well.
> Wether that has any merit or not, I dont know. But here is some reference material for what im talking about.
> 
> 
> https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsaelm.0c00311


Did anyone actually read the attached article? It reveals a variance in resistivity of copper by a factor of 0.02 micro ohm per cm over typical grain variances in producing copper wire. That is a potential 6 micro ohm variance from best of best to worst of worst in a typical 6ft cable. Mind you, resistance is a constant that does not change over the frequency range of signal being sent through it. Thus this study has no baring on anything audio unless you want to use confusion as a marketing ploy.

Ge0


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Occ “OHNO continuous cast copper is the purest form of copper and oyaide makes an excellent cable.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I started following this guy back several months ago when I was researching this very topic for months and months before finally saying screw it a cable can’t just be a cable and have since found out for myself that although it minute differences there are differences in my opinion and nobody is going to tell me differently and change my mind. I’ve done tons of research and I know what the science says but I also know what my ears hear


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> Did anyone actually read the attached article? It reveals a variance in resistivity of copper by a factor of 0.02 micro ohm per cm over typical grain variances in producing copper wire. That is a potential 6 micro ohm variance from best of best to worst of worst in a typical 6ft cable. Mind you, resistance is a constant that does not change over the frequency range of signal being sent through it. Thus this study has no baring on anything audio unless you want to use confusion as a marketing ploy.
> 
> Ge0


Once you get to a certain level of sound from components in your system every little difference matters


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> Once you get to a certain level of sound from components in your system every little difference matters


6 micro ohm x 300 micro amp = 1.8 nano volt difference in a 8Vpp audio signal. Maybe you can hear this. I sure as h3ll can't. The noise floor in even the best systems would drown this out.

Ge0


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Again I know what the science says. I researched this topic for a loooong time before buying the very best I allowed my budget to be and I found it to have a positive effect on my system. So yeah I then spent almost $1000 on stinger 9000 rcas, Morrow audio rcas and blue Jean cable LC1s for the vehicles and audio quest and oyaide rcas for the home and did some capacitance tests of my own. Hell I even bought a fancy little o scope and a ****ty little handheld o scope to do it with that I’m not extremely good at using but I understand enough... hey maybe I’m just a dumb ass?! I’m happy with my purchases though


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Clvol1255 said:


> I started following this guy back several months ago when I was researching this very topic for months and months before finally saying screw it a cable can’t just be a cable and have since found out for myself that although it minute differences there are differences in my opinion and nobody is going to tell me differently and change my mind. I’ve done tons of research and I know what the science says but I also know what my ears hear



Jeez...I just watched the whole thing ... saw and heard alot of opinion and juju, but just where is the "science" in that video ??

Perhaps you can watch the video on the cable "null tester" that I posted above ??


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

seafish said:


> Jeez...I just watched the whole thing ... saw and heard alot of opinion and juju, but just where is the "science" in that video ??
> 
> Perhaps you can watch the video on the cable "null tester" that I posted above ??


It’s all the same as tuning a car. Testers and microphones get you in the vicinity but the human ear actually listening gets you the rest of the way. I know what the “science” says. I’ve watched a bunch of those videos showing scientific reasons that cables should not matter. I will watch it but I’ve seen it I’m sure.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Ge0 said:


> Did anyone actually read the attached article? It reveals a variance in resistivity of copper by a factor of 0.02 micro ohm per cm over typical grain variances in producing copper wire. That is a potential 6 micro ohm variance from best of best to worst of worst in a typical 6ft cable. Mind you, resistance is a constant that does not change over the frequency range of signal being sent through it. Thus this study has no baring on anything audio unless you want to use confusion as a marketing ploy.
> 
> Ge0


This wasn't pulled from any sort of audio company website or anything, so no bearing directly to the audio world. You just stated you didn't know what "long grain copper" referred to, so thought I would give you some context as to what is being argued.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> This wasn't pulled from any sort of audio company website or anything, so no bearing directly to the audio world. You just stated you didn't know what "long grain copper" referred to, so thought I would give you some context as to what is being argued.


I understand what is being argued. I just fail to see how this relates to audio cable performance. I see no relevance that makes common sense.

Ge0.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

seafish said:


> The video below should help bring this thread back onto the "science" track with the cable "null tester" that Ethan Winer built--
> 
> 
> While I have posted it before, it is worth rewatching all of it even though it is 30 minutes--
> ...


Interesting watch. Crazy old guy like me with a passion for dis-bunking myths, 

Ge0


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

420tabbycat said:


> ... Assuming we buy decently shielded moderately priced cables run away from obvious sources of interference, ...


^Bingo^
What are those obvious sources of Interference? And what is the nature of the interference?




420tabbycat said:


> I’ll explain it if you promise not to mock me. First cryogenic freezing weakens the bonding of the stale electrons with the metal from the supernova that formed them eons ago, ...


Probably from a neutron star merger. At least the gold is from those.


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## Machine7 (Nov 17, 2010)

I never thought cables would make a difference, but here is my experience with them on a home hifi turntable/tube amp setup: 

Needing some cables I purchased Monoprice ones. Compared to the cheapo freebie ones floating around the house for years there was no difference. I was disappointed but ok I guessed all that talk about cables must be nonsense after all. I mean they sure looked nicer/more substantial. Anyways they didn’t break the bank and at least looked cool. 

One day I picked up a used piece of equipment and the guy threw in a set of cables and said take em, they’re good cables. I wondered if he meant build wise or sonics and I scoffed at the idea of the latter and went on my way. After all I didn’t have much regard for his opinion as he was so proud of some Elac bookshelves he just got and I thought sounded boomy and artificial. I knew the hype on em at the time and figured he was easily duped or more gently, lacked sonic discernment. 

Lo and behold one day over a year later I picked up more Monoprice cables so everything matched visually and immediately noticed a degradation of sonics. I figured I’d messed up something else or even got bad cables. I tried everything then eyeballed the non matching cable I had earlier removed sitting on my couch “what if??”. Sure enough once connected the openness of the system was back. I still thought I had a defective Monoprice cable and went back to some old generics and they too sounded closed in comparison to the ones that the “easily duped” seller had thrown in. 

I was pissed. Monoprice is cheap but did I waste money and time being a doubter? I had to find out. 

Research lead me to Blue Jeans basic cables as something special on a budget. 

I bought 1 pair and heard a difference: spaciousness of sound stage, separation of instrumentation, etc - it was like a veil was lifted. 

I have gone back and forth and even had it done blind. I can hear a significant difference. 

I had some old JL Audio twisted pair interconnects and have tried them in comparison. Zero comparison. The whole sound stage collapses immediately. 

Now here’s where it gets wacky. I picked up some brand new Knuconceptz right angle (90*) adapters. I tried them on my living room hifi (now all Blue Jeans) and the spacious sound changed to something more focused. Not collapsed, just focused. 
My gf who is not an audiophile can hear it in a blind AB test too. She actually prefers the more focused sound. I prefer the nuanced more open one for most recordings. The difference is change from large, lifelike and lively almost like electrostatic speakers to more condensed/taut sound and stage. 

The difference is so distinct that I have a hard time believing others can’t hear it as well on their systems. I am lead to think then that those that cannot either are biased against it or don’t have the ear for it or already have nice cables. 

I’m in NY if anyone wants to AB it with me either to test me or to settle it for themselves. 

As for engineering being unable to explain things... no one wants to be duped. I get it. But I can also say that there are many things that reductionistic science struggled with for years that quantum mechanics can only now begin to explain. Most of it defies more rigid concepts of what is possible and traditional science. 

If hard science is necessary for something to exist, then our minds will always be hampered by the existing technology available to measure or discern what some already experience. 

The example often given is the “6 minute mile”. For years it seemed an unbreakable goal for anyone to run a mile in under 6 minutes. Physiologists wrote extensively about why this was so and how utterly impossible a task it might be. Then one day someone broke 6 minutes. It seemed a fluke or some superhuman phenomena. As word spread and it became accepted suddenly many people were doing it. 

Here’s another interesting concept: airline sickness. Years ago it was commonplace for people to get seriously ill on aircraft and paper vomit bags were a common enough part of flight. What changed that makes them almost unnecessary is NOT that aircraft no longer experience turbulence, shutters, loud noises, etc, but rather that peoples concept of what flying is/means and how integrated it has become into a new societal norm. 

In both examples there existed a large group of people arguing against those outcomes and could surely find all kinds of science to back it up. At the end of the day I know what I hear in a blind AB comparison. I’ll let y’all catch up.. or not. Whatever makes you comfortable or satisfies your ears is no business of mine. Just don’t try to tell me I’m not hearing it based on a lack of scientific proof that I am or because questionable marketing sometimes exists. That’s just foolish.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Clvol1255 said:


> I started following this guy back several months ago when I was researching this very topic for months and months before finally saying screw it a cable can’t just be a cable and have since found out for myself that although it minute differences there are differences in my opinion and nobody is going to tell me differently and change my mind. I’ve done tons of research and I know what the science says but I also know what my ears hear


have you done blind testing? better still double blind ABX? That's the benchmark that rules out placebo effect and confirmation bias. If you can pick a difference then, well it's real and significant. Then it's just a question of if the differences you get are value for money, compared to say, a more professional sound deadening job, or better electronics or speakers. .


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Holmz said:


> ^Bingo^
> What are those obvious sources of Interference? And what is the nature of the interference?
> 
> 
> ...


Cosmic rays 🤷🏼‍♂️Or running 10’ rca next to 10’ power and ground wire, magnetic fields, either or, neither nor.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

420tabbycat said:


> Cosmic rays 🤷🏼‍♂️Or running 10’ rca next to 10’ power and ground wire, magnetic fields, either or, neither nor.


It was actually a serious question and pretty much 1/2 of the drama with car audio.
With ground loops and gainsturxture being the other half


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Holmz said:


> It was actually a serious question and pretty much 1/2 of the drama with car audio.
> With ground loops and gainsturxture being the other half


I think it’s magnetism that introduces sound through wires, like when running signal cables adjacent to higher power wire.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

I stumbled across this video and thought it was a pretty cool demonstration of what twisted pair wiring can do.

Twisted vs. Untwisted Wires - YouTube 

Ge0


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't want to insult the people who believe in high end cables, I simply want to point out that "I swapped cables, and heard a difference" is a completely bogus argument. Some people are probably tired of me talking about echoic memory, but it's super relevant in this hobby. We simply do not have the ability to remember tiny details in sound for more than a couple of seconds. The simple act of swapping cables takes more time than our echoic memory can be trusted. Without a proper double blind test, where the signal switches between cables instantly, any claims that a cable changed the sound is 100% unreliable. 

We are ALL susceptible to bias, and I'd like to remind people that hi-fi audio has always had a reputation for selling snake oil. Be suspicious of claims made by marketing teams, and try to come to terms with your own perceptual limitations.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

gijoe said:


> I don't want to insult the people who believe in high end cables, I simply want to point out that "I swapped cables, and heard a difference" is a completely bogus argument. Some people are probably tired of me talking about echoic memory, but it's super relevant in this hobby. We simply do not have the ability to remember tiny details in sound for more than a couple of seconds. The simple act of swapping cables takes more time than our echoic memory can be trusted. Without a proper double blind test, where the signal switches between cables instantly, any claims that a cable changed the sound is 100% unreliable.
> 
> We are ALL susceptible to bias, and I'd like to remind people that hi-fi audio has always had a reputation for selling snake oil. Be suspicious of claims made by marketing teams, and try to come to terms with your own perceptual limitations.


Ggijoe that is a super polite, calm, rational, intelligent and concise comment. And it's correct. It's not insulting and it should bring this thread to a close


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> I’ll bet you $500 I can. I went from stinger 4000 to 9000 and I heard a difference from the day I switched. There is a difference in how blue Jean cables LC1 sound from the 9000s as well. I’m running LC1 to my subs and 9000s mid bass mids and highs.
> 
> same could be said for you who don’t want to believe it. You don’t hear a difference bc you want to believe it’s snake oil. Btw cables have to be broken in too


You know some motor oils can give your engine as much as 20 extra horsepower when you switch, thing is, when you just do an oil change back to the same brand that you just drained out, you get that extra horsepower.
What I'm saying is, your Stinger 4000's had probably deteriorated in some way, so the new cables sounded better because of a better connection.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Sam Spade said:


> Ggijoe that is a super polite, calm, rational, intelligent and concise comment. And it's correct. It's not insulting and it should bring this thread to a close


🤷🏼‍♂️


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> Crosstalk is much higher in good quality cables as well and none of you have mentioned it


Crosstalk is bad.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

420tabbycat said:


> Shortly after posting that I realized how cliche it is to pick out the janitor. Overall though it seems that a general laborer and a technician is a decent comparison to a general audio enthusiast and a audio enthusiast with an electrical engineering degree.
> why are the only people getting angry are the ones who spent big bucks on cables


Because they got duped, and they THOUGHT they were smart.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

ckirocz28 said:


> Because they got duped, and they THOUGHT they were smart.


Thems fighting words


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Niebur3 said:


> I wasn't the only one to "like" his post. I do that from time to time with posts I agree with. Many of us do actually. Nice of you to notice.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you Porsche.


Don't you have some $30000 cables you can sell him?


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Ge0 said:


> I was interested in what may make the Stinger 9000 cable sound different. Sol I went to their website and read this puke:
> 
> Car Audio’s Ultimate Interconnect
> 
> ...


*I wonder how RG6Q coaxial cable would compare to this in a blind test, it is QUAD shielded.*


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> You know some motor oils can give your engine as much as 20 extra horsepower when you switch, thing is, when you just do an oil change back to the same brand that you just drained out, you get that extra horsepower.
> What I'm saying is, your Stinger 4000's had probably deteriorated in some way, so the new cables sounded better because of a better connection.



Oh wow I haven’t found any that’ll make it go faster.... what type of oil should I buy??? I’ll buy me some motor oil to shave some time off my laps! Thanks man I appreciate the knowledge


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> Crosstalk is bad.


Crosstalk rejection is not bad


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

> I still want to know how Stinger engineers get the high frequencies to go through silver conductors and low frequencies to go through the long grain oxygen free copper wires. Brilliance? Or, bullsh!t?


It’s like the old joke about 3 guys discussing the greatest invention of the 20th century.

The first says "the telephone" it has made communication easier and made business possible across the globe.

The seconds says "the truck" it allows us to move goods to market over long distances and it means we can get products transported in bulk.

The third guy says "the Thermos". It keeps cold things cold and hot things hot.

So, ask the other two. We all know how a Thermos works. What's so great about that?

"Well, how does it know!?"


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> Crosstalk rejection is not bad


Crosstalk is bad.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> Oh wow I haven’t found any that’ll make it go faster.... what type of oil should I buy??? I’ll buy me some motor oil to shave some time off my laps! Thanks man I appreciate the knowledge
> View attachment 287129
> View attachment 287130
> View attachment 287131


I think putting that motor IN the car will make it go faster, also put oil in it before you run it or it won't go at all.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

All cars have these motors in them. It’s a spare. You’d **** your pants in the passenger seat


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

@Ge0 fast forward to 37 minute mark and he explains pretty much what makes the 9000s


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> All cars have these motors in them. It’s a spare. You’d **** your pants in the passenger seat


Nah, come take a ride with me. I drive at speeds that require more than an 1/8 mile circle track.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> Nah, come take a ride with me. I drive at speeds that require more than an 1/8 mile circle track.


Oh yeah? Cool! What kind of oil do you use to get that extra HP?


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

> @Ge0 fast forward to 39 minute mark


“Do you ever let your wife drive”

words said in a video posted on the internet in the year of our lord 2020.

I’m sure what they said at the 39 minute mark was totally credible, though.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

SQ_Bronco said:


> “Do you ever let your wife drive”
> 
> words said in a video posted on the internet in the year of our lord 2020.


My wife has been in heaven since 2016... cervical cancer


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ckirocz28 said:


> *I wonder how RG6Q coaxial cable would compare to this in a blind test, it is QUAD shielded.*


A CAT-6 eithernet cable could be worth a test.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ckirocz28 said:


> *I wonder how RG6Q coaxial cable would compare to this in a blind test, it is QUAD shielded.*


Actually high grade coaxial cable is supposed to make a great inner connect. Both golden ears and scientists agree.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> My wife has been in heaven since 2016... cervical cancer


Sorry to hear that.

Ge0


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> Oh yeah? Cool! What kind of oil do you use to get that extra HP?


The good kind, it costs $10000 a quart.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Holmz said:


> A CAT-6 eithernet cable could be worth a test.


I think somebody already tested that.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

> I think somebody already tested that.


Iirc Iasca specifically recommended against this in like 1997. I think it was even in the rule book, next to the paragraph about the idiot who fiberglassed in his rca cables instead of zip-tying them every 6 inches (which is also stupid, but was required, at least at the time).


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Iirc Iasca specifically recommended against this in like 1997. I think it was even in the rule book, next to the paragraph about the idiot who fiberglassed in his rca cables instead of zip-tying them every 6 inches (which is also stupid, but was required, at least at the time).


Why? Fiberglassing your rca's in place? Rules that they must be zip tied? WTF?


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> The good kind, it costs $10000 a quart.


Out of my league


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

ckirocz28 said:


> Nah, come take a ride with me. I drive at speeds that require more than an 1/8 mile circle track.


If youve never gotten in a late model or sprint car and get the chance, I would. They scare the **** out of me more than most +1000hp drag cars lol.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

You know these arguments for and against where exactly the same for the amp thread last year... just saying

Personally you do get an improvement in different cables - but like amps a lot of cables are over inflated and give the rest a bad name...

Like amp A that costs $1000 and amp B that costs $300 both share the identical board layout from an off the shelf China company just one is dressed up and looks fancy and has a recognizable name - let’s use GZ here...

It’s GZ therefore it’s good and the $1000 is justified? Right? But there is another company that sells the exact same thing at $300 but it’s unknown therefore it’s crap... right?

So you do a AB between the 2 and realize they sound the same and therefore amps don’t make a difference? Sound familiar?

So you get monster cable that costs $50 a meter which is actually the same as some fong Kong company that sells the same cable at $5 per meter - so you ABX both cables and the conclusion is $5 cable is the same as $50? 

You see that has happened a lot across all industries... 

If you want an honest opinion you need to visit companies that don’t rebrand there gear.. something like AQ , Kimber etc...

I bought some speaker cable from EOS that is BI wire but it’s the same thickness as a 4gauge Audison sonus power cable - when you strip it it has braided sleeving around it and has 4 14awg conductors inside each conductor had foil under the pvc sleeving and the strands are different thicknesses and a mixture between solid thicker strands to thinner strands - the thicker strands has insulation around it as well.. it’s a proper looking cable with a 9n copper purity (highest you get) cost me $7 per meter - unfortunately it was too thick and stiff to use effectively...

If I was going to redo my cabling I would try to get more...

Vs AQ FLX it makes AQ look very entry level at a similar price....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> If youve never gotten in a late model or sprint car and get the chance, I would. They scare the **** out of me more than most +1000hp drag cars lol.


I've been around them a lot and have ridden in one, they top out too quick, but they do have impressive acceleration.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> I've been around them a lot and have ridden in one, they top out too quick, but they do have impressive acceleration.


Top out depends all on gearing. My brother has won at Volusia speed weeks last two years and was clocked at an avg speed of 92 and Calvert city Kentucky at 116mph avg. that’s in an outlaw modified which is more throttle control and driving. Late models are 15-20+ mph faster and sprint cars even faster than that. They do 140 on some tracks and 90 in turns and I promise you sliding on dirt that fast feels a lot more intense then asphalt. You literally turn by the throttle


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## Henrique Duarte (Jun 25, 2020)

Up


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## Eddyirie (Feb 7, 2020)

Henrique Duarte said:


> I am looking for RCA cables to use with my tweeters, mid-range and mid-bass, in an active system.
> 
> After reading about different cables, I saw many comments stating that one model widened the sound stage, other boosted bass notes, and another highlighted the top end frequencies. In similar way, some cables are regarded as neutral, others as warm or analytical.
> 
> ...


Aloha. I had some cheap stinger 20 foot cables for my 70s wagon they did the job, but when I got a $60 pair of sundown 20’cables it made quite a difference. Super well insulated and maybe because of the long fetch is why the thicker cables made a difference. I am very satisfied with the sundown cables. I got them on Amazon with free shipping.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Clvol1255 said:


> View attachment 287389
> 
> Top out depends all on gearing. My brother has won at Volusia speed weeks last two years and was clocked at an avg speed of 92 and Calvert city Kentucky at 116mph avg. that’s in an outlaw modified which is more throttle control and driving. Late models are 15-20+ mph faster and sprint cars even faster than that. They do 140 on some tracks and 90 in turns and I promise you sliding on dirt that fast feels a lot more intense then asphalt. You literally turn by the throttle


I'm not really a fan of drifting, on dirt or asphalt. Yeah, I know it's not drifting, but it is.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Get outa here with that snake oil!


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## Henrique Duarte (Jun 25, 2020)

Up


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> I'm not really a fan of drifting, on dirt or asphalt. Yeah, I know it's not drifting, but it is.


Nah it’s called digging!


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> View attachment 288908
> 
> Nah it’s called digging!
> View attachment 288910


I sense a little bit of body panel flex as you nail that corner


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Clvol1255 said:


> View attachment 288908
> 
> Nah it’s called digging!
> View attachment 288910


Spin em up! I can smell the race gas from here!

Now that think about it, dirt track and drag cars are most likely what got me interested in the tactile feeling of sound as a kid. Led me to a set of bazookas in my first car back in '08, which quickly lead me here trying to figure out how to install them, and eventually into this bonfire of money that we all stand in hahah


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> I sense a little bit of body panel flex as you nail that corner


set em up on lap 69 to bring it home lapped car in the middle about costed me


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)




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## Nineteen69Mach1 (May 30, 2017)

This is a pretty interesting thread to read. A lot of science and opinions. Pretty cool I think.

I bought Stinger 9000s yesterday soley on the way they looked. They just so happen to match the build the best. Now as far as them sounding better than 4000s or $10 RadioShack....


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## Gill (Sep 26, 2007)

Nineteen69Mach1 said:


> This is a pretty interesting thread to read. A lot of science and opinions. Pretty cool I think.
> 
> I bought Stinger 9000s yesterday soley on the way they looked. They just so happen to match the build the best. Now as far as them sounding better than 4000s or $10 RadioShack....


Do share your views, Did it work wonders?;-)


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## Nineteen69Mach1 (May 30, 2017)

Gill said:


> Do share your views, Did it work wonders?;-)


Will find out soon. I'll definitely share my experience with them. I'm going from the Sky High Premium RCAs


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Well I’ve gone from stinger 9000 to oyaide d plus neo class A and class S and I will not go back. Oyaide is as smooth and natural sounding I’ve heard. I’m testing out a few others too that are POCC copper so I’ll have some info to share soon for those who may be interested. I’ve also tried some custom made from a guy off Facebook called RSD Cables and he makes high quality cables too at a very fair price. I have been using his 3XT and ultra cables. Like both a lot


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

Ge0 said:


> Like JimmyDee I have always been a sucker for cool looking interconnects. The brand SkiZer used in his GT3 build was fuuking phenomenal.
> 
> I've been using this brand to make my own cables for years:
> 
> ...



I admit that I didn't read all 50 pages of this thread because with all the replies coming from highly educated individuals, I am nowhere near qualified to even to post my own $0.02.. as there is no way I would spend hundreds of dollars on RCA cables even if it had a third input labeled "penis". Lol. But using fiber optic cable is as RCA is new to me. I've never even heard of that being used until reading your post. When [email protected] came to install Uverse, which has fiber run directly in to modem to achieve the 1Gpbs, hey threw about 20ft of it in my garbage can and I went back and picked it out. I don't know why I did at the time because I had no use for it. But now I'm going to look into this.. so thanks for the info!


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Fiber optical is used in digital applications usually


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

Clvol1255 said:


> Fiber optical is used in digital applications usually


Yea.. well there went that idea for me! Lol. However, I have always wondered why optical cables have never been used instead of RCA cables.. could maybe one of you experts please enlighten me as to why this is?

EDIT - I am talking about from head unit to amp.


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

Clvol1255 said:


> Fiber optical is used in digital applications usually


I realize that.. but why do you connect optical from your TV to your receiver which in essence is the amplifier when dealing with standard home audio, and not in the car?

FYI - I certainly am not trying to challenge your reply.. I am still just curious as to why it's not used in car audio?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> Like JimmyDee I have always been a sucker for cool looking interconnects. The brand SkiZer used in his GT3 build was fuuking phenomenal.
> 
> I've been using this brand to make my own cables for years:
> 
> ...


Did "Vampire Wire" go out of business already? The web site linked to above no longer exists....


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I’m not a wiz on the subject. I’m just a hobbyist who enjoys trying out new cables and I’m still searching for the perfect one to suit my preferences. Most guys are a lot more technically correct in this thread than I am tbh. I’m not even saying that you can’t use the fiber optical cables for your application in all honesty. Just saying that they’re mostly used for carrying digital signal. I only post what I hear from my listening tests of running the different cables for a few weeks straight and then I give some a longer use if I like them enough


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> Did "Vampire Wire" go out of business already? The web site linked to above no longer exists....


I clicked it too and got the same message as you it seems. Covid shutdown really messed a lot of small businesses up


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

Clvol1255 said:


> I’m not a wiz on the subject. I’m just a hobbyist who enjoys trying out new cables and I’m still searching for the perfect one to suit my preferences. Most guys are a lot more technically correct in this thread than I am tbh. I’m not even saying that you can’t use the fiber optical cables for your application in all honesty. Just saying that they’re mostly used for carrying digital signal



I understand that they are solely used for digital signal.. but I've just always wondered what makes the old school analog RCA cables superior to digital when going from head unit to amp.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

You would need another set of wires for gain control, and you would add two conversions from electrical signal to optical, and vice versa. Might make sense if it was built into the amp and if you could miduksteca gain signal over the same wires, but it’s really a lot of hassle for no real benefit as long as you’re not trying to protect your system from an EMP pulse.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

BJG said:


> I understand that they are solely used for digital signal.. but I've just always wondered what makes the old school analog RCA cables superior to digital when going from head unit to amp.


I think that digital cables are technically "superior" - it's just that old standards die hard.  Manufacturers just seem reluctant to switch to digital for car audio. I know that digital can have what they call "jitter" but I've never personally noticed it myself. It's also probably cheaper to stick with analog. I like digital simple because you don't have to worry about "noise" issues related to log analog cable runs. Plus, you can run a very slim cable instead of usually-bulky RCA cables. 

However, the TOSlink connector kind of sucks - it's not nearly as "sturdy" as RCA cables. They tend to fall out easier.


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> You would need another set of wires for gain control, and you would add two conversions from electrical signal to optical, and vice versa. Might make sense if it was built into the amp and if you could miduksteca gain signal over the same wires, but it’s really a lot of hassle for no real benefit as long as you’re not trying to protect your system from an EMP pulse.



That makes sense.. Thank you!


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Clvol1255 said:


> Fiber optical is used in digital applications usually


And those fancy light decorations / paintings you find at the flea market


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

SQ_Bronco said:


> You would need another set of wires for gain control, and you would add two conversions from electrical signal to optical, and vice versa. Might make sense if it was built into the amp and if you could miduksteca gain signal over the same wires, but it’s really a lot of hassle for no real benefit as long as you’re not trying to protect your system from an EMP pulse.


The cheap TOSLINK standard used on home theater equipment for 25 years is line level audio only. Newer standards like AES or MOST can embed all kinds of extra data into the optical data stream like volume, secondary audio channels (like chimes or phone calls), and control functions (balance, fade, mode select).

The problem being the chipset required to do this is somewhat expensive. Typical manufactures wnt to maximize profit and don't want to spend that extra cash.

Ge0


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> The cheap TOSLINK standard used on home theater equipment for 25 years is line level audio only. Newer standards like AES or MOST can embed all kinds of extra data into the optical data stream like volume, secondary audio channels (like chimes or phone calls), and control functions (balance, fade, mode select).
> 
> The problem being the chipset required to do this is somewhat expensive. Typical manufactures wnt to maximize profit and don't want to spend that extra cash.
> 
> Ge0


Where do the wm3.5 rank? Are they still on top? Yes or no lol


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Alright after about a week and a half of listening to my Oyaide Neo D+ class S I am challenging any one of you who say that cables cannot make an audible difference in sound quality. These RCAs are the 1 meter version from them. They are the best smoothest most neutral sounding interconnects I’ve ever heard. They’re just cleaner and more refined sounding for lack of better words than anything else I’ve used. The bass notes just seem to be quicker and more impactful than the stinger 9000 cables I’ve been using or the “3XT” RSD cables I’ve been using. Why? I have no idea. I’m sure scientifically this isn’t possible in some opinions or eyes. I promise you though these cables are difference makers audibly.. they’re not even that subtle compared to the stinger 9000 RCAs which is very surprising to me. I could hear the smoothness on top end and quicker more crisp impact on the lower end from the time I switched them. Oyaide class s are ugly cables unless you like purple which I don’t. The 9000s look way better IMO but if you’re looking for sound quality it’s not even a contest between the two. Also if you don’t want to spend the money on the class S the class A (orange-still ugly)are half the price of the stinger 9000s and they even beat them out to my ear for sound quality and it’s not even close. Both cables from Oyaide are superior sounding. That said in a car environment that you need to run underneath carpet or near power ground sources I don’t believe they’d hold up as well as the stinger 9000. I could only really recommend these if your dsp is within 7ft of your amps since they only come in 1m or 2m pairs. These are my opinions and what I hear.. I have no technical details or reasons why that I hear what I hear..

Next on my list to try out are an American made interconnect from Ramm Audio “elite 7” and I have to warn you the connectors on them are a very tight fit on my Mosconi Pro amp. They do however fit fine on the Tiffany style connectors of my JL HD 600/4 that are running the mid bass and sub channels. On the Mosconi they are barely able to go on and I’m honestly not 100% confident that they are making contact as well as needed so that may cancel these high end high quality feeling cables before I get a good listen of them. If they don’t work out bc of fitmwnt issues I will move on to a Canadian made interconnect from 1877phono Zafvino-Arcadia MK2 then an Italian brand called Ricable-primus & dandelus
Retail prices of these cables bc I know this will be considered highly.
Stinger 9000-$159.99 plus tax
RSD cables 3XT-$105 shipped
RSD cables Ultra-$155 shipped
Oyaide Class A(orange)-$70 plus tax
Oyaide Class S(purple)-$180 shipped
Zavfino Arcadia MK2-$150 plus tax
Ramm Audio Elite 7-$129.99 plus tax
Ricable Primus -$134 plus tax


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

Alright I’ve got some new thoughts on a few of these cables and the short is that absolutely 100% the (pure ohno crystal cables) POCC copper/silver cables sound very much more clear and crisp on all frequencies. I do not care what tests or science tests say. I can hear it with my ears. In a good way. Id recommend these cables to anybody searching for that little extra bit of signal. I am willing to go as far as saying that if your ears are decent and not going bad that anybody will hear these differences very clearly and without even straining or focusing on it. It’s just there. All 3 of these following cables made a noticeable difference and after switching each around on highs and mids mid bass and subs channels here is how I’ve decided I like best but they all sound better than the stinger 9000 RCAs I just pulled. I didn’t want to get rid of any of these cables so I bought some gold plated audio quest right angle pieces for the Zavfino & ramm audio rcas bc they’re too big to fit my amp alone. The biggest difference in these cables compared to others I’ve used is instant impact and wider sound stage perception and noticeable background upper end instruments that aren’t even noticeable or at least not as clearly noticeable with others. Again I don’t know what the lab tests would show but I have to believe that a stronger signal is allowed to pass through in order to get these type of audible results. 
Zavfino Arcadia mk2-tweeters via right angles
Ramm audio elite 7-mid range via right angles
Oyaide Neo class S mid bass
Oyaide Neo class A Sub


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)




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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

How long of a break in period do these cables require? Were your listening sessions short and quick or did you evaluate each set for a few days?


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I’ve listened to the Oyaide cables for over a month now and they’re becoming more and more open, especially the class A. I’ve listened to the ramm audio cables for about a month on and off bc of fitmwnt issues with my Mosconi Pro amps with the connectors being too fat. I bought right angle attachments and that problem is now gone. The ramm audio cables sound phenomenal hence the reason I found a way to keep running them. The Zavfino cables sounded perfect to me from the start as they do a break in of them before they sale them. A high voltage ultra sonic thermal break in that they call ultra sonic 7 with Some sort of deep Cryo treatment at -196 degrees Celsius. I challenge you to try any of these cables and if you don’t hear a difference I’ll buy them from you so you’re out not a single penny. I can’t say that I prefer any over the other necessarily sound wise but the Oyaides are my least favorite cosmetically. If I had to choose any of the 3 over the other it’d be tough but I think now I’m loving the Zavfino cables most and why I put them on the tweeters


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

I’ve listened to the Oyaide and ramm for weeks. Only had the Zavfino for about a week but to be honest they seem perfect already to me


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

That said though every one of them sound near perfect compared to the 9000s I had in or anything else I’ve used. They definitely work as filters rather than antennas. All 3 are very good quality. Ramm audio are hardest to find


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## couchflambeau (Apr 18, 2006)

Is there a Poe's Law corollary to Car Audio forums? Of not I would like to formally lay claim to the postulate.


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## Clvol1255 (Aug 6, 2020)

50/50 pure snake oil bc of test measurements which most don’t even listen vs those who know what the measurements and science say but they listen with own ears and the difference is obvious in some cases it requires listening very critically to hear. This case it jumps right out and slaps you upside the dome and says listen you stubborn mfer -I’m different

whatever claim you have feel free to spew it


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