# I have to ask.. What's up with all the Mosconi Amps for sale in classifieds?



## Denaliz (Dec 2, 2014)

Hey guys, 

I swear over the last 90 days, I've seen more Mosconi Amps being listed and then sold again like it's going out of style. This usually says something between the lines- so I thought I'd ask for some honest feedback.

I came close to pulling the trigger on a couple but am pretty happy with my current setup. I did have the chance to flip out my arc XDI for an Audison voce 5.1k and after a demo, decided I couldn't tell much difference.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Nothing wrong with them. Some of the best out there. I'd be running them myself but I found 2000 watts of focal power at dealer cost and couldn't pass it up. Most of us don't sit on gear forever and mosconi got really popular these last couple years and now it's time to upgrade or just make changes. Makes sense to see an increase of used amps on the market.


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## bonesmcgraw (Jan 7, 2013)

I just sold one and am still trying to sell one.

I'm selling mine because I had 2 different routes I was trying to decide on for my subs. I was going to need 2 amps for one way (3 -si bmiv's) and only 1 amp for the other (2 - C12xl's). I got a new car and decided to go with the 2 Illusion Audio c12xl's so I only need the 1 amp. I'm also not going to be doing a center channel so I don't need the amp for that anymore.

So i'm only selling mine because system design has changed and they aren't needed anymore. I'm sure that's why most are being sold now.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Tempting isn't it? If I didn't need something a bit more efficient I'd have already jumped on one of these AS 100.4s


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## Denaliz (Dec 2, 2014)

Yeah- I'm not dogging them just seems to be the most sold and listed brand of amp. Hell I know about chasing the dragon- I had my system installed and 2 weeks later had bought hertz MLK components, voce 5.1k amp and was ready to drop more coin and I caught myself and thankfully unloaded all of it. Haa if it wasn't for the real estate involved I'd like to run the 200.4 and 300.2 and call it a day.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Denaliz said:


> Yeah- I'm not dogging them just seems to be the most sold and listed brand of amp. Hell I know about chasing the dragon- I had my system installed and 2 weeks later had bought hertz MLK components, voce 5.1k amp and was ready to drop more coin and I caught myself and thankfully unloaded all of it. Haa if it wasn't for the real estate involved I'd like to run the 200.4 and 300.2 and call it a day.


I wanted to run 200.4's badly but they are HUGE.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Drop11 said:


> I wanted to run 200.4's badly but they are HUGE.


If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that's the biggest factor. A basic 4 channel amp that eats up almost 4 square feet of real estate is fine if you only need one amplifier. But if you need 6-8 channels for large active systems, then the amount of space that you have to dedicate to just amplification gets to be almost ridiculous. The build quality of the Mosconi amps is beyond question, as is the sound quality and features. I think a lot of people buy these amps without a realistic appreciation for how absolutely huge they are. 

It could always have something to do with the perceived "prestige" or status that comes with owning one of the premiere sq amplifiers on the market. Pick up a few used for a good deal, run them for a few months, then when the novelty wears off you flip them for a minimal loss. And then when you talk about your new amps, you get to say how favorably they compare to your Mosconi amplifiers that you used to run.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> ... And then when you talk about your new amps, you get to say how favorably they compare to your Mosconi amplifiers that you used to run.


Yep, there's a new boner every 2-3 years and there's one born every minute, it's a match made in heaven.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Truthfully, people are most likely realizing the amps really aren't that great. I bought a pair last year and they didn't even make it to my car after comparing them to my reference amps. I resold them. They have good clarity and not much else. They sound soft and lack dynamics. I'm referring to the AS series. The Zeros are a little better, but still not great. 

People here in the states have to realize that these amps sell for about HALF of US retail price in Europe. These amps aren't expensive by any means, and use very mediocre parts internally. It's mainly marketing with these amps and the fact that they look good. That allowed the distributor (middle man) to import them here and double their retail cost. 

If you really want some, locate any Italian dealer and you can have them shipped to the states for about half of US retail....and that's with shipping included!


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

You say they lack dynamics? I haven't heard that one before. What would you consider an amp with good dynamics?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

SoundAudio said:


> Truthfully, people are most likely realizing the amps really aren't that great. I bought a pair last year and they didn't even make it to my car after comparing them to my reference amps. I resold them. They have good clarity and not much else. They sound soft and lack dynamics. I'm referring to the AS series. The Zeros are a little better, but still not great.
> 
> People here in the states have to realize that these amps sell for about HALF of US retail price in Europe. These amps aren't expensive by any means, and use very mediocre parts internally. It's mainly marketing with these amps and the fact that they look good. That allowed the distributor (middle man) to import them here and double their retail cost.
> 
> If you really want some, locate any Italian dealer and you can have them shipped to the states for about half of US retail....and that's with shipping included!


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Darkrider (May 11, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> Truthfully, people are most likely realizing the amps really aren't that great. I bought a pair last year and they didn't even make it to my car after comparing them to my reference amps. I resold them. They have good clarity and not much else. They sound soft and lack dynamics. I'm referring to the AS series. The Zeros are a little better, but still not great.
> 
> People here in the states have to realize that these amps sell for about HALF of US retail price in Europe. These amps aren't expensive by any means, and use very mediocre parts internally. It's mainly marketing with these amps and the fact that they look good. That allowed the distributor (middle man) to import them here and double their retail cost.
> 
> If you really want some, locate any Italian dealer and you can have them shipped to the states for about half of US retail....and that's with shipping included!


I'll just respectfully disagree.

I, too, have compared my Mosconi's to several amps and they have always come out on top. More clean power than I'll ever need. I believe the biggest reason people end up selling them is space or electrical. Being Class A/B, they are thirsty. They aren't overly large considering the amount of power they are capable of, but they are much larger than Class D amps. The Mosconi's are more flexible (in terms of load) than most Class D's, but how often is that an issue? I'd say it really boils down to what is needed to meet one's goals for their system. In my daily, I wanted a buttload of Class A/B power, but didn't want to spend the money for BRAX, and didn't have the room for Phoenix Gold Elites (talk about HUGE). The Mosconi's fit the bill (and I love them in my Camaro). Also, a lot of members here end up changing amps/etc just because we want to try something new. The Focal's I have in my daily KIA are great, and have been great for a long time, but I'm about to remove them. Why? Did I "realize they aren't that great"? No, they are great, but I just want to try something different. Same thing happened with the Hertz Mille set I had in there before the Focals. The Hertz were awesome, but I wanted to try the Focals.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Downside: Their big.

Upside: Everything else lol.

I think just like any other forum and any other industry, people love buying/changing things just for the sake of change.


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## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes they are big but so are a lot of other amps. I just did this install in a Dodge Ram. 3 AS 100.4 and a Zero 1 and 2 6to8 processors and they all fit. Can't beat the sound quality of them and they are a dependable amp much more than the Zapco Z series I had in my truck.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Hammer1 said:


> Yes they are big but so are a lot of other amps. I just did this install in a Dodge Ram. 3 AS 100.4 and a Zero 1 and 2 6to8 processors and they all fit. Can't beat the sound quality of them and they are a dependable amp much more than the Zapco Z series I had in my truck.


Powrful!
A pair of 6 to 8's? I'm curious........


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Hammer1 said:


> Yes they are big but so are a lot of other amps. I just did this install in a Dodge Ram. 3 AS 100.4 and a Zero 1 and 2 6to8 processors and they all fit. Can't beat the sound quality of them and they are a dependable amp much more than the Zapco Z series I had in my truck.


Wow! Awesome picture! Thanks for sharing.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SoundAudio said:


> Truthfully, people are most likely realizing the amps really aren't that great. I bought a pair last year and they didn't even make it to my car after comparing them to my reference amps. I resold them. They have good clarity and not much else. They sound soft and lack dynamics. I'm referring to the AS series. The Zeros are a little better, but still not great.
> 
> People here in the states have to realize that these amps sell for about HALF of US retail price in Europe. These amps aren't expensive by any means, and use very mediocre parts internally. It's mainly marketing with these amps and the fact that they look good. That allowed the distributor (middle man) to import them here and double their retail cost.
> 
> If you really want some, locate any Italian dealer and you can have them shipped to the states for about half of US retail....and that's with shipping included!


what are your reference amps?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

No longer a forum boner, nothing else wrong with them.


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## Darkrider (May 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> what are your reference amps?


I was gonna ask the same thing.


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## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

danno14 said:


> Powrful!
> A pair of 6 to 8's? I'm curious........


He is running 2 6.5 a 4 and tweet in each door so He needed 12 channels plus sub. He is also running 4 illusion c10xl


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Hammer1 said:


> Yes they are big but so are a lot of other amps. I just did this install in a Dodge Ram. 3 AS 100.4 and a Zero 1 and 2 6to8 processors and they all fit.


Wow....NICE install...

I need to ask what year Ram and model...

ie is that the quad cab bench seat or 60/40 seat and will the rear seat still fit back there??? LOL


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Thread is too funny! I'm about to list a pair my Zero 3's FS, but only because I don't need so many


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

danno14 said:


> Thread is too funny! I'm about to list a pair my Zero 3's FS, but only because I don't need so many


Pm me a price.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Angrywhopper said:


> Downside: Their big.
> 
> Upside: Everything else lol.
> 
> I think just like any other forum and any other industry, people love buying/changing things just for the sake of change.





Victor_inox said:


> No longer a forum boner, nothing else wrong with them.


Yep.
They're moving on to the next forum boner.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Darth SQ said:


> Angrywhopper said:
> 
> 
> > Downside: Their big.
> ...


Haven't noticed any new bones amps? What am I missing?


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## Denaliz (Dec 2, 2014)

just going thru classifieds there are many deals to be had on HAT and Mosconi. I took advantage of some killer pricing on L6V2's and L1pro2 tweets. Having patience and funds to spend always serves me well. Cheaper than the Hertz mlk's I bought and flipped a few months ago.


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

We get a lot of trade in trade up through our program, rep samples, team use and dealer demo gear. No sense in letting them sit on a shelf and not be used. I sell them on this forum.
A good fiend has a Mosconi Class A amp on his tweeters, and there is absolutely nothing bad about this amp. Plenty of power and very clean.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

SoundAudio said:


> use very mediocre parts internally.


Mediocre parts? :icon_bs:I guess you've never looked inside a Zero. They have very nice parts! 

Typical internet wisdom.:toilet:


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

You right they use parts as good as another medium priced amps.Not as good as Brax but about helix level. IMHO of course.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

CrossFired said:


> Mediocre parts? :icon_bs:I guess you've never looked inside a Zero. They have very nice parts!
> 
> Typical internet wisdom.:toilet:


I've actually examined them throughly, and my claims can be validated by a simple google images search, and a little knowledge of quality parts.

The Zero's use the same quality level of parts as the AS series.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Victor_inox said:


> You right they use parts as good as another medium priced amps.Not as good as Brax but about helix level. IMHO of course.


Not as good as any other amp on the market in their price range. Zapco LE/LX, Phoenix Gold Elite, Brax, Linear Power, Tru Tech Billet, Sinfoni. 

Not to mention, I've had 2 different AS200.4's and the newer revision actually decreased the amount of storage capacitance as well. They keep padding their bottom line by giving you less than the little you got to begin with.

Do the math. For example; the AS200.2 sells for about $530 USD in Italy. Mosconi probably sells that amp to the dealer for $300. How much do you think it costs them to make that amp that sells for $1,000 here in the states? The retail price here has altered one's perception on their actual quality.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Linear power? really? I`m out of here.....


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Victor_inox said:


> Linear power? really? I`m out of here.....


I guess I'm confused. You stated Mosconi uses the same level parts as other's in their price range. I named numerous that use MUCH higher quality parts, you pick out one brand, and make this comment. 

I don't get it.

All the internal pics I've seen of their amps show a bunch of Wima bypass caps, audio grade electrolytics, large T03P output devices, low ESR caps in the power supply, copper buss bars, Burr Brown Op-amps, etc.


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## Denaliz (Dec 2, 2014)

Greg-you are a good friend to this site. The demo product you sell are great deals for anyone wanting to try out HAT.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> I guess I'm confused. You stated Mosconi uses the same level parts as other's in their price range. I named numerous that use MUCH higher quality parts, you pick out one brand, and make this comment.
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> All the internal pics I've seen of their amps show a bunch of Wima bypass caps, audio grade electrolytics, large T03P output devices, low ESR caps in the power supply, copper buss bars, Burr Brown Op-amps, etc.


Pictures, of course. 
THere is no such thing as audio grade electrolytics, Only in sales brochures. 
I really don`t want to review the rest of your statement, so I`m out of this thread.


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## mclaren1885 (Feb 15, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> You right they use parts as good as another medium priced amps.Not as good as Brax but about helix level. IMHO of course.


Are the AS/Zero series amps priced similarly to the Brax in USA? 

Here in India, Brax amps sells for twice to thrice the price of the Mosconi Zero amps. When you are paying 1/3rd the price, are we really expecting Mosconi amps to be the same level as the Brax?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

People here do.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

mclaren1885 said:


> Are the AS/Zero series amps priced similarly to the Brax in USA?
> 
> Here in India, Brax amps sells for twice to thrice the price of the Mosconi Zero amps. When you are paying 1/3rd the price, are we really expecting Mosconi amps to be the same level as the Brax?


The Mosconi Class A, Zero 4, and Zero 1 are all $3,000 retail here in the USA. So, yes, they are in the same price range as Brax. 

All the other amps named cost less and use better parts. 

Nonetheless, as stated previously, you can buy Mosconi for half US retail cost by ordering direct from an Italian dealer. There is a reason they are cheap over there. They're built cheap.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SoundAudio said:


> The Mosconi Class A, Zero 4, and Zero 1 are all $3,000 retail here in the USA. So, yes, they are in the same price range as Brax.
> 
> All the other amps named cost less and use better parts.
> 
> Nonetheless, as stated previously, you can buy Mosconi for half US retail cost by ordering direct from an Italian dealer. There is a reason they are cheap over there. They're built cheap.


If you're really saying Mosconi amps are built cheap then you've lost any chance of credibility on this forum.
Might as well go pedal your bs somewhere else.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Darth SQ said:


> If you're really saying Mosconi amps are built cheap then you've lost any chance of credibility on this forum.
> Might as well go pedal your bs somewhere else.


I guess your first mistake is thinking I care what Mosconi homers think of me on this forum. Open one up and use your eyes. Everything I've stated can be substantiated with a simple screwdriver and a camera.

I haven't even mentioned that they over rate them as well. Every one I've power tested has came in lower than rated. Every AS amp I've tested should be rated 25-50 watts less per channel. Give them a 50hz tone and they really **** their pants.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> I guess your first mistake is thinking I care what Mosconi homers think of me on this forum. Open one up and use your eyes. Everything I've stated can be substantiated with a simple screwdriver and a camera.
> 
> I haven't even mentioned that they over rate them as well. Every one I've power tested has came in lower than rated. Every AS amp I've tested should be rated 25-50 watts less per channel. Give them a 50hz tone and they really **** their pants.


 You obviously using google pictures as your main source of information.
care to post a prove of your underated statement for all to see?


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Victor_inox said:


> You obviously using google pictures as your main source of information.


Listen guy. You keep coming in this thread and trying to stir **** up while offering no factual information. Are you trying to state the internals of the amp on google images are any different than the images I've taken myself in my own home? They're not. The amps use cheap parts. Prove that fact wrong. Every other supposed SQ amp in their price range, here in the US, uses much higher quality parts. It's a fact.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I don`t know about you but I listen to music not to 50Hz sine wave, but that`s just me..... 
BTW mosconi clearly stated in the manual that testing on resistive load not recommended.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> Listen guy. You keep coming in this thread and trying to stir **** up while offering no factual information. Are you trying to state the internals of the amp on google images are any different than the images I've taken myself in my own home? They're not. The amps use cheap parts. Prove that fact wrong. Every other supposed SQ amp in their price range, here in the US, uses much higher quality parts. It's a fact.


Stop posting ******** I`ll stop coming back.

No, you listen, guy....
I ****ing love people who learn how to use google claiming to be experts. 
How many amplifiers you designed? or assist to design? 
claiming that one parts better than another without referencing circuit it was used in is retarded.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Victor_inox said:


> You obviously using google pictures as your main source of information.
> care to post a prove of your underated statement for all to see?



You obviously use google translate to communicate on this forum.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> You obviously use google translate to communicate on this forum.


That`s ok, keep trolling:laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> That`s ok, keep trolling:laugh:


but the attempted insult at you was his proof!


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> but the attempted insult at you was his proof!


I see...   

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Smh. Simple post, always turns into bashing one another. Ridiculous. Back to the main question....

I personally think some people 

1) don't want to do the necessary upgrades to run amps that require so much of their electrical system (high output alternator, etc)

2) realize that THEY can't tell a major audible difference between the expensive Mosconi, and their other amp that was $500 less 

3) need more space 

4) decide they need the money back and know they can sell the Mosconi for a profit

Just my thoughts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Idk what the issue is. They all sound like amplifiers to me. Neither Brax or Mosconi use magic sound quality dust. All amplifiers have ridicules markups. 
People need to stop crying when somebody else has a different opinion. 
Vic will ***** and complain about everything.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Idk what the issue is. They all sound like amplifiers to me. Neither Brax or Mosconi use magic sound quality dust. All amplifiers have ridicules markups.
> People need to stop crying when somebody else has a different opinion.
> Vic will ***** and complain about everything.


actually to be honest, when i had all the amps hooked up at my place, the brax was the only one with a reasonable difference. and the mosconi actually had something interesting about it. when we o-scoped it, we found that at 0.96 volts of output, it started "kinking" the wave form slightly right in the middle. guess thats where they get their warm italian sound from.. i gotta see if i can dig up the video from that


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I can send some Stegs next time...might have extra Classe A and MSK3000.

You can adjust how long the Class A stays in A before it switches ...and no neg feedback.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> I can send some Stegs next time...might have extra Classe A and MSK3000.
> 
> You can adjust how long the Class A stays in A before it switches ...and no neg feedback.


Never again lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Point out the cheap components in this video:

https://www.facebook.com/GladenAudio/videos/450306218346032/


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SoundAudio said:


> Listen guy. You keep coming in this thread and trying to stir **** up while offering no factual information. Are you trying to state the internals of the amp on google images are any different than the images I've taken myself in my own home? They're not. The amps use cheap parts. Prove that fact wrong. Every other supposed SQ amp in their price range, here in the US, uses much higher quality parts. It's a fact.


Dude you're just the latest troll to surface on DIYMA.
You'll leave soon enough once you realize no one will take you seriously.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Idk what the issue is. They all sound like amplifiers to me. Neither Brax or Mosconi use magic sound quality dust. All amplifiers have ridicules markups.
> People need to stop crying when somebody else has a different opinion.
> Vic will ***** and complain about everything.


Maybe so DD but Vic is dead on correct in his postings.


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Darth SQ said:


> Dude you're just the latest troll to surface on DIYMA.
> You'll leave soon enough once you realize no one will take you seriously.


You may come here for internet peer approval, but I don't. 

If someone can't speak from experience without being **** on by the resident **** talkers, then so be it. 

It's not my $3,000 paying for Samyoung, Samwha, and Daewoo caps, or even 30 year old 5532 op-amps, so I really could care less who wants to live in the fog.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Point out the cheap components in this video:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/GladenAudio/videos/450306218346032/


And isn't this video of the One line anyway? Which is considerably less expensive?


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## SoundAudio (Jul 5, 2016)

Darth SQ said:


> Maybe so DD but Vic is dead on correct in his postings.


Yep. He's correct. You can't see the names of the cheap components laid out on the PCB by doing a simple google search. He's a smart guy.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Idk what the issue is. They all sound like amplifiers to me. Neither Brax or Mosconi use magic sound quality dust. All amplifiers have ridicules markups.
> People need to stop crying when somebody else has a different opinion.
> Vic will ***** and complain about everything.


i don`t see me complaining but see you crying a LOT!:laugh:
"look every ****ing amp sounds the same...."
****ing manufacturers charge way too much for their amplifiers..."


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SoundAudio said:


> You may come here for internet peer approval, but I don't.
> 
> If someone can't speak from experience without being **** on by the resident **** talkers, then so be it.
> 
> It's not my $3,000 paying for Samyoung, Samwha, and Daewoo caps, or even 30 year old 5532 op-amps, so I really could care less who wants to live in the fog.


roflmao....he thinks I'm looking for peer approval.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> You may come here for internet peer approval, but I don't.
> 
> If someone can't speak from experience without being **** on by the resident **** talkers, then so be it.
> 
> It's not my $3,000 paying for Samyoung, Samwha, and Daewoo caps, or even 30 year old 5532 op-amps, so I really could care less who wants to live in the fog.


Industry need people like you upgrading perfectly fine caps to branded "better" versions of the same caps, or true and proven 5532 to $2 more expensive BB or exotic **** like discrete opamps or in blind believe that every modification is better than factory. 
I`ve seen my share of ****ed up electronics by modifiers. Few of them has my number on speed dial.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Industry need people like you upgrading perfectly fine caps to branded "better" versions of the same caps, or true and proven 5532 to $2 more expensive BB or exotic **** like discrete opamps or in blind believe that every modification is better than factory.
> I`ve seen my share of ****ed up electronics by modifiers. Few of them has my number on speed dial.


There we go! SoundAudio, we can use a customer like you for once.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

I guess Brax makes AC/DC sound like Lil Wayne


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> There we go! SoundAudio, we can use a customer like you for once.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


 Nick, he is not a customer he knows everything himself he has Google at his disposal.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Wait.. why do I have a feeling that SoundAudio is Dynamic_SQ?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> I guess Brax makes AC/DC sound like Lil Wayne


 It does? I`m looking for one that would do the opposite. What amp would you recommend? I know that DD subs make everything sounds like anything you want. But what about amps?


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## geshat00 (Jun 1, 2016)

DDFusionV2 said:


> I guess Brax makes AC/DC sound like Lil Wayne


Autotuned to death!!!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Darth SQ said:


> Dude you're just the latest troll to surface on DIYMA.
> You'll leave soon enough once you realize no one will take you seriously.


post #4 i was like, wtf, post #5 was when i realized that. everything else is just gravy.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Jt make me some pods pretty please!


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## Darkrider (May 11, 2012)

SoundAudio said:


> Yep. He's correct. You can't see the names of the cheap components laid out on the PCB by doing a simple google search. He's a smart guy.


The burden of proof usually falls on the persecution, right? Just sayin.....

Grab some pics, use some slick paint/photoshop skills, label the inferior parts, and explain to those of us "in the dark" why they are inferior. If you make the claims, you must be knowledgeable enough to do that. It wouldn't take very long, and you would be providing valuable education which goes a long way towards helping the DIY community.

Thanks.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> actually to be honest, when i had all the amps hooked up at my place, the brax was the only one with a reasonable difference..


How would you describe these differences?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SkizeR said:


> Wait.. why do I have a feeling that SoundAudio is Dynamic_SQ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I believe it's just time for a lot of people to try something else. That said, I've been happy with my lower priced Mosconi amps. I paid about what I think a middle of the road 100-150x4 amp should cost. Didn't pay retail and one of them was bought brand new. Other used. I've heard tons of great sounding systems with the AS and Zero amps, and of course the lower priced One series. Looking at pics from the last College Station meet I was having a hard time finding a pic that DIDN'T have Mosconi amps in the install. So they're expensive here in the states. Well so is everything else in the Orca group. If someone's willing to pay the price that's their business. I won't think any less of them. I have come across one or two people who act like their **** don't stink because they run certain high priced gear, but they're few and far between. To me the quality of an amp has a lot to do on how well it does rated power without falling on its face. My "cheaper" One series amps are impressive for their size, but I know of a lot of other amps in the $400-$600 range that does the same power that are impressive too. As long as people are happy with what they're running that's all that matters. For what it's worth, I might be jumping all the a/b train but that's just because I've heard way too many great sounding systems with fullrange d over the past 5 years. I remember when even class d on a subwoofer was considered "dirty" power:laugh:


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

I think this amp is overpriced and has mediocre quality parts in it as well.










And if I remember right the "Reference Amp" has not been announced yet.

Actually I think that is the most beautiful amp ever produced, no matter what's in it or otherwise. It's just like owning your dream car from the 80's, it might disappoint you now, but you'd still be as giddy as a child with a popsicle!!


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## johnbooth3 (Feb 26, 2008)

Hillbilly SQ, great perspective. 

People tend to over react when they feel no one listens to their opinion or agrees with it. Sometimes, I just have to tell them we can agree to disagree and move on. 

Is any amp an amp? The short answer is *YES*. The object of an amplifier is to take a low level signal and amplify that signal up. So taking a .707 volt signal and outputting it at 50 volts to drive a device (Typically a speaker) to produce the signal in a way someone can hear it. Does every amplifier take that exact same signal and amplify it the exact same way? IE, the circuit design is the same, the chips used are the same, the caps are the same, etc. That answer is no. Anytime you manipulate/adjust the signal, you add something to it, even if the design of the circuit is not to, it does. No one amplifier is built the same as another. Even within manufactures, the amplifier series' are different. So a Mosconi One amplifier is not built the same way as an AS amplifier. 

The object of any circuit/design is to adjust the signal as needed without adding any additional artifacts/information. An ideal circuit would do just that. However, there is no such thing. Can we design/build something that gets close? Maybe. That is the challenge for the designer/engineer. The real question is it worth the extra time/cost to do so. It depends. Is it worth it to you. If you feel the Jenson 4 channel amp sounds just fine to you, then buy it. _(Keep reliability out of this conversation)_. If you feel the Mosconi, Arc, Zapco, etc amps provide better sound and its worth the delta in price, then buy it. (Make sure your budget allows it, only buy what you can afford, don't go into debt to satisfy your urge. Another topic for another thread.)

I always try to weigh the difference between what I perceive to hear and what the cost impact would be. For example, I bought a Denon AVR-4000 surround sound receiver with Energy speakers. I bought the speakers on sale from Best Buys Magnolia department a few years back. I bought the Denon through work at a very good discount. Do they sound good? Yes! Could my home theater experience be better? Most certainly, but for what I paid, which is about half of what it should have cost me, I am very happy. My family and friends love it. I enjoy it and typically try to use it more than my wife and kids would like. They think i like to listen to it loud.  

There are so many factors that could cause an amp to sound crappy to one and OK to another. It could be the music you listen to, it could be the volume at which you listen to that music at. Today it even depends on the quality of the compression you are using at the source or the source itself. IE MP3, FLAC, AAC, WAV, etc. Unless we all can sit in a perfect room and listen to the exact same tracks at the exact same volume with perfect speakers (perfectly linear) and a perfect source with the perfectly recorded tracks, with the recording engineer describing what the recording should sound like, then and only then could we put this to rest. 

Please try to keep all these in perspective when you try to bash on someone or someone's opinion. It doesn't accomplish anything. Also, if you get a comment back about your opinion, try to take a moment and make sure you see all sides. The fun of this hobby and many others is the thrill to try something different. If I could afford it, I would try other brands. This will be my first time using Illusion Audio speakers and Zapco amps. This is probably the first time I have had the money to do so. My last build, I kept in that car for 8 years and it used some old school MTX amps, but I added a Zapco DSP6 and Zapco Black speakers. I still used my old JL 10w1 (The first versions) and loved the sound quality. Could I have had better audio, maybe, but for what I paid for on that build, I couldn't be happier. The question I always ask myself is it worth double the price for XX in gain. Sometimes that is only 5% or less.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I've had bad recordings become listenable with an amp swap (not saying which amps but they're long gone), and 320k mp3's go from acceptable to unacceptable with a processor change. Had to re-rip everything into lossless. Now, if I had the choice to pay hundreds for an amp that made the power I needed without falling on its face or an amp that costs thousands and had some difference in the sound for the better but not much, I'd choose the one that cost hundreds. I'd even do it if I had the money for the more expensive amp. Why? I was raised to shop around and get the best bang for my buck without having to settle. That's also why I chose a Tracker aluminum bass boat with a 75hp motor for just shy of $20k over a fiberglass Phoenix bass boat with a 150hp on it for $34k. I could have afforded to pay nearly twice as much but for my needs the more expensive (and nicer and faster and better riding) boat would have been a waste and less enjoyable because of more upkeep required and a much higher payment. Bang for the buck is also why I refuse to buy a fully loaded truck. And having leather in Arkansas ain't smart when you're a sweaty fat boy. I sweat in my leather recliner if the temp in the house isn't bordering cold, but my uncle gave it to me for free.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

I think people look at the power rating and say well amp A does 4x100 amp B does the same but amp A has a different philosophy in board layout and components while amp B is a off the shelf design with a different name to exact same others... 

I believe in amp design and components even if others moot it.. I tested a Zapco Z150.6 which got super reviews and it sounded crap! I tried another amp I never even heard of and cost a lot less and it creamed the higher priced Zapco.. Why? Looking at the board layout differences it was clear why - the non Zapco amp had Elna SIMIC audio caps and mundorf caps used LT OPAMPS - whilst the Zapco you had to google the Korean caps to know what they were.. Also 1c audio caps explain a lot 

Sorry but components in amp building make a sonic difference...

Yeah I'll get the psychoacoustic mumbo jumbo - and yeah I cool with that... Won't stop me buying a high end product..

Any rate buy what you can afford and just enjoy it.. I would love Focal Ultimas with Audiowave amps and ODR source units but my bank manager says otherwise so I'll be satisfied with what I have or what I can organize through various deals..


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Elektra said:


> I think people look at the power rating and say well amp A does 4x100 amp B does the same but amp A has a different philosophy in board layout and components while amp B is a off the shelf design with a different name to exact same others...
> 
> I believe in amp design and components even if others moot it.. I tested a Zapco Z150.6 which got super reviews and it sounded crap! I tried another amp I never even heard of and cost a lot less and it creamed the higher priced Zapco.. Why? Looking at the board layout differences it was clear why - the non Zapco amp had Elna SIMIC audio caps and mundorf caps used LT OPAMPS - whilst the Zapco you had to google the Korean caps to know what they were.. Also 1c audio caps explain a lot
> 
> ...


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Lol... 


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I believe quality components make a difference but the difference between cheap and expensive models of parts like capacitors or op amps is only a few dollars so the markup becomes ridiculous at the high end of the market.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

A decent amp in a great install and proper tune will always beat the best and most expensive amps in a bad install and/or tune.

A great amp in a great install with great tuning will always beat a decent amp in a decent install and decent tuning.

Even though you have the best equipment you can buy, that alone does not make your system great. 

I've been in car audio since 1989 and competed for about 12 years. I can't count how many times I have listened to systems with the best equipment and they sounded like crap. Then I listen to another system with the same equipment and it sounded awesome. Install and tuning is probably 85-90% of the whole package. Even in my own systems I have put new equipment in and thought it was crap. But with some tuning, the crap sounding equipment wound up sounding pretty good.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Looking at the specs of that Zapco amp, I can't see it sounding like crap. That had to be a big disappointment! Dang


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

MrGreen83 said:


> Looking at the specs of that Zapco amp, I can't see it sounding like crap. That had to be a big disappointment! Dang
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I gave it back the next day...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

out of the many amps i have A/B'd.. none of them have sounded like crap. not even the cheap bottom of the barrel ones. yeah theres a very slight difference, but thats it. plus, that difference was hardly enough to say one was worse than the other. just different. the only one that stood out as even the slightest bit superior was the brax. and that was hardly a noticeable better difference


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> out of the many amps i have A/B'd.. none of them have sounded like crap. not even the cheap bottom of the barrel ones. yeah theres a very slight difference, but thats it. plus, that difference was hardly enough to say one was worse than the other. just different. the only one that stood out as even the slightest bit superior was the brax. and that was hardly a noticeable better difference


Yup.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> out of the many amps i have A/B'd.. none of them have sounded like crap. not even the cheap bottom of the barrel ones. yeah theres a very slight difference, but thats it. plus, that difference was hardly enough to say one was worse than the other. just different. the only one that stood out as even the slightest bit superior was the brax. and that was hardly a noticeable better difference


the only thing missing from those is their balls. :laugh::laugh:


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> I think people look at the power rating and say well amp A does 4x100 amp B does the same but amp A has a different philosophy in board layout and components while amp B is a off the shelf design with a different name to exact same others...
> 
> I believe in amp design and components even if others moot it.. I tested a Zapco Z150.6 which got super reviews and it sounded crap! I tried another amp I never even heard of and cost a lot less and it creamed the higher priced Zapco.. Why? Looking at the board layout differences it was clear why - the non Zapco amp had Elna SIMIC audio caps and mundorf caps used LT OPAMPS - whilst the Zapco you had to google the Korean caps to know what they were.. Also 1c audio caps explain a lot
> 
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> the only thing missing from those is their balls. :laugh::laugh:


balls on the price tag? or..?


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

SoundAudio said:


> I guess I'm confused. You stated Mosconi uses the same level parts as other's in their price range. I named numerous that use MUCH higher quality parts, you pick out one brand, and make this comment.
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> All the internal pics I've seen of their amps show a bunch of Wima bypass caps, audio grade electrolytics, large T03P output devices, low ESR caps in the power supply, copper buss bars, Burr Brown Op-amps, etc.


Given I've repaired a number of LP amps, I can tell you the 80's ones used T03. Into the 90's they had a bunch of amps using 218 outputs. I don't recall any T03Plastics, but maybe the much later models. 

My after school job was an installer at a Linear Power dealer(80's). I had LP's in my cars for 20+ years. The Mosconi Zero 4 sounds better than any LP I ever used. But I always found Lp's to have a very forward unforgiving sound signature. In a world of Glass and metal, I find I like the sound sig of Mosconi amps. They have a bit more relaxed/warmer sound. Plus you can count the number of amps on one hand that make appropriate power distribution, like 100watts for tweets, and 200 for mids.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> out of the many amps i have A/B'd.. none of them have sounded like crap. not even the cheap bottom of the barrel ones. yeah theres a very slight difference, but thats it. plus, that difference was hardly enough to say one was worse than the other. just different. the only one that stood out as even the slightest bit superior was the brax. and that was hardly a noticeable better difference


Ok...suspense is killing me, WHICH Brax were you listening to ??


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

knever3 said:


> I think this amp is overpriced and has mediocre quality parts in it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look at those tiny transistors! Total Junk!


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

So does a warmer amp make a natural tonal instrument sound warm?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

CrossFired said:


> Look at those tiny transistors! Total Junk!


or power supply tiny caps. Complete Junk!


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> So does a warmer amp make a natural tonal instrument sound warm?


What is natural tonal instrument?


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

A not warm tonal instrument. Sp neutral


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> A not warm tonal instrument. Sp neutral


You know how it`s gonna end, might drop it now.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

It's foolish.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

If the Mosconi is coloring than it is indeed a POS. A distorted POS.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> If the Mosconi is coloring than it is indeed a POS. A distorted POS.


 Absolutely is for people listening to sine waves instead of music.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> It's foolish.


Just realised that?:laugh:


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Music is a combination of a **** ton of sine waves


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Music is a combination of a **** ton of sine waves


No it`s not.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Give me a distorted pos DHT SET amp on some horn loaded speakers any day of the week then. Pure bliss to these ears.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Give me a distorted pos DHT SET amp on some horn loaded speakers any day of the week then. Pure bliss to these ears.


bbbbb-but it` s not true to the source!


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Victor_inox said:


> No it`s not.


Music is a mixture of frequencies. Frequancy is a sine wave.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Music is a mixture of frequencies. Frequency is a sine wave.


No it`s not. Music is an art form based on harmonics, take tone generators try making it sound musical.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Isn't that EDM and electronica?


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Put a song playing through the O scope. You will see sine waves


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Put a song playing through the O scope. You will see sine waves


Highly distorted, modulated wave that doesn`t look nothing like sine wave. 
In other words it is not.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

You win. Complete waste of time with you as always


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> out of the many amps i have A/B'd.. none of them have sounded like crap. not even the cheap bottom of the barrel ones. yeah theres a very slight difference, but thats it. plus, that difference was hardly enough to say one was worse than the other. just different. the only one that stood out as even the slightest bit superior was the brax. and that was hardly a noticeable better difference


I've been pretty impressed with recent amps but 15 years ago amps were very different from each other. I remember trying to cheap out and buy a Kenwood amp and it sounded hollow and had the least amount of dynamic range I've ever experienced. I had been using PPI amps and the Kenwood was absolute garbage in comparison.
I think a lot of us old school guys still carry some justified caution from the past. 
Noise, dynamic range, power and distortions have made leaps and bounds from when I first got into this hobby. 
I remember several amps that by today's standards would not even be listenable.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

I think you need to take the knowledge and ability you have to today and apply it to what you had then. Things would have been different. Amps where not rated the same then. Take that into consideration. I also come from the 90s but luckely I was taught by somebody good.
I don't carry anything


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

seafish said:


> Ok...suspense is killing me, WHICH Brax were you listening to ??


x2000

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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> You win. Complete waste of time with you as always


As always,told ya.

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> As always,told ya.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


don't worry, there will be more

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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

I will die, you will die, all will die, the day will come. 
So do equipment, no matter how good an equipment is, it will still fails when the time comes.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

kyheng said:


> I will die, you will die, all will die, the day will come.
> So do equipment, no matter how good an equipment is, it will still fails when the time comes.


Correct but unlike you me everybody equipment can be restored indefinitely.

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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> x2000
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Thanks for that.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> out of the many amps i have A/B'd.. none of them have sounded like crap. not even the cheap bottom of the barrel ones. yeah theres a very slight difference, but thats it. plus, that difference was hardly enough to say one was worse than the other. just different. the only one that stood out as even the slightest bit superior was the brax. and that was hardly a noticeable better difference




How many of your listening sessions were done in a controlled room and how many were done in a car?

I'll bet 99% of all blind listening tests were not done in a car - due to obvious reasons - nobody wants there setup messed with and the logistical nightmare of amp swapping - easier to do it in a large room...

Listening to a amp sitting on a comfy sofa directly in the middle of 2 speakers sitting 6m away - is very different to sitting in the drivers seat of a car 20" away from the nearest speaker.... 

At 6m away you can't hear background noise at 20" away you can hear everything...

A Jensen amp playing in a large room compared to a Brax amp may be a small difference at 6m away - but at 20" away I am sure it's a different ball game..

Food for thought...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Elektra said:


> How many of your listening sessions were done in a controlled room and how many were done in a car?
> 
> I'll bet 99% of all blind listening tests were not done in a car - due to obvious reasons - nobody wants there setup messed with and the logistical nightmare of amp swapping - easier to do it in a large room...
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure this was done in a controlled environment. This test was months in the making and every variable was taken into careful consideration. At least I think this amp test took place eventually. Skizr might be young but he's a sharp kid from what I can tell. There was another amp test that took place done by another member in a controlled environment. The listeners had no idea which amp was playing at the time. I found it comical that highly regarded a/b amps were being described as "cold class d sounding" while a new class d amp on the market from a legendary amp designer from yesteryear was either the best sounding or close to it. 

I used to be in the camp where you had to be careful with amp selection. Now I know that as long as an amp is of a known good design it will do just fine. Any differences can be shaped to desired response with eq. If an amp does have a certain tonal signature it was either designed that way or it's just flat out a bad design. I'll take an amp that's true to the signal any day of the week and twice on Sundays in the car audio world. There are times where a tube amp is a more desirable option but those are specialized occasions dictated by the user. I'd love to have a good revealing set of home speakers driven by a big tube amp but I'm not made of money. One day maybe...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> How many of your listening sessions were done in a controlled room and how many were done in a car?
> 
> I'll bet 99% of all blind listening tests were not done in a car - due to obvious reasons - nobody wants there setup messed with and the logistical nightmare of amp swapping - easier to do it in a large room...
> 
> ...


i guess my basement with two different sets of speakers to try it on, with an instant switching source while sitting about 6 feet away is a worse environment than a car.. only reason nothing came out of it was because i was never able to organize enough people to come on a date. just me and a local friend one day, and another local friend another day. but it seems like your assuming amps will sound different when placed in a car vs a home? wrong. an amp isnt smart enough to know where its installed. it takes signal in, and puts out an amplified signal out that is oh so slightly (and i mean very slightly) colored the same way irregardless of where it is.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

There is no argument different amps use different parts. Some have more longevity due to better parts. Some deal with heat better than others. That's a given. 
Headroom and dynamics is in the tune. Some will do better than others in that area. Again, that's in the tune and knowing your equipment.


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

I tend to think if an amp is properly engineered with proper circuit layout and sink design or fan cooling the parts should last until the caps are faulty or the heat sink paste gets dried out and looses its heat transfer properties. That is if it's properly installed with the required voltage and current capacity at it's disposal. I don't think just because inexpensive or "cheap" parts are used doesn't mean they will fail. IMHO


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> i guess my basement with two different sets of speakers to try it on, with an instant switching source while sitting about 6 feet away is a worse environment than a car.. only reason nothing came out of it was because i was never able to organize enough people to come on a date. just me and a local friend one day, and another local friend another day. but it seems like your assuming amps will sound different when placed in a car vs a home? wrong. an amp isnt smart enough to know where its installed. it takes signal in, and puts out an amplified signal out that is oh so slightly (and i mean very slightly) colored the same way irregardless of where it is.




Yeah but honestly even at 12ft away from a speaker you would struggle to hear background hiss etc but at 2ft away these things start to play a part in the annoyance factor - things like SNR THD become more of a factor as you are near field listening as apposed to far field listening - also in a big open room 100rms seems very loud but in a car not that much - your typically listening to music louder in a car than at home...

Build quality of a amp starts to be more relevant than in a home.. That's why I also thought a good car amp outperforms a good home amp.. 

Just my thoughts here..


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

I'm pretty sure it's been proven that the speaker plays more of a roll in distortion than the low THD of the amplifier.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Of all equipment, speakers by far have the most impact on sonic character.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

DDFusionV2 said:


> If the Mosconi is coloring than it is indeed a POS. A distorted POS.


I guess my home tube gear is real ****! lots of distortion.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Imo yes. In yours, I guess not


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Imo yes. In yours, I guess not


Maybe you should stop listening to bass tones by itself and throw in some music for a change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PCkvCPvDXk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

CrossFired said:


> I guess my home tube gear is real ****! lots of distortion.


Don`t pay attention to him, no one takes him seriously around here anyway.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

I know.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If your speakers are low sensitivity, then amps are amps.

Crossover to the world of high efficiency where you can have plenty of volume from 2 wpc...things in amps and the whole signal chain start to really matter


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> If your speakers are low sensitivity, then amps are amps.
> 
> Crossover to the world of high efficiency where you can have plenty of volume from 2 wpc...things in amps and the whole signal chain start to really matter


Some years back I listened to my friends system.A 10 wpc tube amp with pair Klipschorn speakers, and it was Loud as hell.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

CrossFired said:


> Some year back I listened to my friends system.A 10 wpc tube amp with pair Klipschorn speakers, and it was Loud as hell.


60 years ago typical power at movie theater was 5 watt. Klipschorn sensitivity
105dB at 2.83v/meter. at 10 watt that would be about 120DB give or take..
About $10000 for a pair. 
in today world it`s cheaper to have low sensitivity speakers and 300W amplifier.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Pardon my ignorance, but if we can get away with just a few watts and sensitive drivers, why doesn't the car audio industry embrace that philosophy? Seems like it's more appropriate in mobile applications yet only home audio enthusiasts seem to go there for the most part.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Bandwidth is limited with higher sensitivity. It's always a trade off.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

rob feature said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but if we can get away with just a few watts and sensitive drivers, why doesn't the car audio industry embrace that philosophy? Seems like it's more appropriate in mobile applications yet only home audio enthusiasts seem to go there for the most part.


Drivers too big for a car. Look how hard is to fit horns in car. Unless interior designed with horns build In.

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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

rob feature said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but if we can get away with just a few watts and sensitive drivers, why doesn't the car audio industry embrace that philosophy? Seems like it's more appropriate in mobile applications yet only home audio enthusiasts seem to go there for the most part.


Oh we embrace it.


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

I am quite sure no one will actually read this..as with the links on the futility of upgrading to DSD , etc..as lemmings or the herd once in stampede mode can only be made to change direction ...never to stray from the herd bit change 'with' the herd.

The Sound of Audio Amplifiers: Can you hear a difference between Amps? | Audioholics

Also since we do have facebook..befriend Asawendo and Gordon Taylor amongst others. Scott Buwalda in my personal experience is extremely generous with his time and is one of the most gracious dominant winners I have ever had the immeasurable please to talk to many times. In short ..all amps are not the same, guerilla marketing tactics aside by manufacturers ..and their dealers and etc ad nauseum does not make an amp better or imo desired.

The Sound of Audio Amplifiers: Can you hear a difference between Amps? | Audioholics


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Bandwidth is limited with higher sensitivity. It's always a trade off.


Interesting. Never heard this one before.



Victor_inox said:


> Drivers too big for a car. Look how hard is to fit horns in car. Unless interior designed with horns build In.


I can wrap my head around that one. 



oabeieo said:


> Oh we embrace it.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Look at pro audio woofers and midrange. High output but limited bandwidth. Normally sacrifice low end


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)




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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## sensarmy (May 25, 2014)




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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Now I need to wonder why amplifiers years ago like Proton and NAD to name a few with only 25/ch sounded better and louder than quality name brands amps with 4 times the rated power, or kept a more listenable output with certain music with low transient passages like classical music. Maybe they were a bit underrated when measured, but not higher than a single digit %, looking at reviews and testing under the same standards by a third party and unbias individual or entity.


My Yamaha 100Wx5 home T receiver, did not even sound close to an HK 45Wx5, same room, same everything just an amplifier change, it it had nothing to do with lower impedance and higher current either because the speakers were 8 ohms. The Sound had more energy more impact, there was no comparison.

Maybe in a car as already mentioned, in a small area and short distance it may be harder to notice those differences, and while driving, forget about it.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

rob feature said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but if we can get away with just a few watts and sensitive drivers, why doesn't the car audio industry embrace that philosophy? Seems like it's more appropriate in mobile applications yet only home audio enthusiasts seem to go there for the most part.




Focal is definitely on it. Doesn't take much AT ALL to power their drivers. I'm talking 50-80 watts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

They are rated different. Like in the 90s everything was underrated to get them into lower classes. They still cost the same.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

I still have a couple Of those NAD integrated amps. I think they called it a power envelope, I just call it a unregulated power supply. Either way they had 1.5~3db of head room, making them sound like higher power amps.





Alrojoca said:


> Now I need to wonder why amplifiers years ago like Proton and NAD to name a few with only 25/ch sounded better and louder than quality name brands amps with 4 times the rated power, or kept a more listenable output with certain music with low transient passages like classical music. Maybe they were a bit underrated when measured, but not higher than a single digit %, looking at reviews and testing under the same standards by a third party and unbias individual or entity.
> 
> 
> My Yamaha 100Wx5 home T receiver, did not even sound close to an HK 45Wx5, same room, same everything just an amplifier change, it it had nothing to do with lower impedance and higher current either because the speakers were 8 ohms. The Sound had more energy more impact, there was no comparison.
> ...


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

CrossFired said:


> I still have a couple Of those NAD integrated amps. I think they called it a power envelope, I just call it a unregulated power supply. Either way they had 1.5~3db of head room, making them sound like higher power amps.



Yes, that dynamic rage spec output was used back then, many others did not list it for convenient reasons.

Lately I have not seen any list it, maybe new standards or who knows, digital music and DA converters may have something to do with that, or only Long PLay record playback benefited from a high dynamic range spec.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Alrojoca said:


> Now I need to wonder why amplifiers years ago like Proton and NAD to name a few with only 25/ch sounded better and louder than quality name brands amps with 4 times the rated power, or kept a more listenable output with certain music with low transient passages like classical music. Maybe they were a bit underrated when measured, but not higher than a single digit %, looking at reviews and testing under the same standards by a third party and unbias individual or entity.
> 
> 
> My Yamaha 100Wx5 home T receiver, did not even sound close to an HK 45Wx5, same room, same everything just an amplifier change, it it had nothing to do with lower impedance and higher current either because the speakers were 8 ohms. The Sound had more energy more impact, there was no comparison.
> ...


idk about you, but i consider a doubling of power a pretty significant difference..


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> idk about you, but i consider a doubling of power a pretty significant difference..


We need to take or use what's available, some amps these days have the regulated power at diferent loads, that may or may not have an edge over some others doubling the power at lower impedance. Class A,AB, D 

I remember some of the old Rockford Fosgates, 25Wx2 in 85-87 sounding better and getting more acceptance over alphasonik in the same or lower price range rated at 45Wx2 or a Concord rated at 55Wx2 based on reviews from magazines I used to read, there were many other more good and expensive brands, that were just above my price range, that I'm sure we're much better.

You were not even in diapers back then, then I was not around for another 15 plus years, but many companies entered the market with fake power ratings from what I heard, CEA setting new standards and regulations in 05-06. 

I still have a couple of those amps, and who know based of today's way to rate power at barely or over 1% THD, some of those old ones having 0.5 % or way less in THD may be way under rated.

But like I said I'm more of a " I'll take what's available today" type and I'll take and use as much power as I can afford and offer to the drivers, I did notice the significant difference between 100W/ ch versus 220W + to each midbass, and that is the reason I added and extra amp having to go through a lot of wiring upgrades just to have that extra power.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Oh and what's with the "you need an MS8 if you want to listen to Metal"  did I miss something, reading some threads?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Alrojoca said:


> Oh and what's with the "you need an MS8 if you want to listen to Metal"  did I miss something, reading some threads?


That was me messing with the kid. I guess he can't tune to play metal good.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Alrojoca said:


> I remember some of the old Rockford Fosgates, 25Wx2 in 85-87 sounding better and getting more acceptance over alphasonik in the same or lower price range rated at 45Wx2 or a Concord rated at 55Wx2 based on reviews from magazines I used to read, there were many other more good and expensive brands, that were just above my price range, that I'm sure we're much better.


Alphasonik was out junk line where i worked at the time. I remember they had a t-shirt with "Just Try To Blow Us Up!" on the back. the huge joke was, all we had to do was wire them up. the failure rate was so high on them back when they started.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Alrojoca said:


> Oh and what's with the "you need an MS8 if you want to listen to Metal"  did I miss something, reading some threads?


Yeah. hilarity ensued, as usual

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Mmm

From what I remember in the mid to late 80's alphasonik
Was ok, amps made here if I can remember correctly, it was not until early 90's they started making them in china, either the company was sold and everything changed to junk.

Even PG went through a similar thing some shop owner told me about 8 years ago.

They sold it and the old ownership bought back not sure when, maybe over 10 years ago and the quality went back to very good or better than it used to be.

Alphasonik never returned to be what it was. If it was junk maybe it got even worse in the 90's

I may be wrong I wish I could back it up, oh well

And thanks for ms8 history I was curious about it too bad I missed the laugh


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