# What's the "best" way to do a 2 way front stage for SQ?



## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

If a typical 6.5 and tweeter is the "worst" way, then what's the "best" way? Midrange and tweeter? Midbass and midrange with no tweeter? Midbass and coaxial midrange? Midbass and wideband?

I'm asking both in general, and specific to the Ford Ranger I'm about to have. I want a KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) loud SQ system with some SPL level bass that murders the lows. I know that last part will be tough in a regular cab that I don't want to do a blow through or sacrifice the passenger seat on, but still.

Anyway, the answer to this question will determine how I proceed with planning. Given the size of the truck and subwoofer limitations, I'm thinking I'll end up more along the lines of a 6.5 in the door instead of the 8 (and really, 10) that I originally wanted. The question is, what do I put in the pillar/upper position?

I've read some good things about the Tang Band W4-1757SB 4 inch midrange not needing a tweeter. But also that the audiofrog GB25 also fulfilled the tweeter role. I've read a bunch about Peerless SLS series 6.5, 8, and 10, too...

_sigh _IDK, I have a lot of information that I've soaked up like a sponge, but almost no experience. And really no way to sort the information. At the end of the day, I want my system to play things accurately, clearly, without fatigue due to screaming or distortion or nails-on-a-chalkboard highs or honky mids, and with zero missing frequencies or information.

And I want it to be simple in layout and not too expensive, either. Finally, I want it to get loud enough to keep up with heavy bass, and low as hell since I'm primarily a bass-head, but do throw on some classic rock or indie stuff about 30%-40% of the time.

Sorry for bombarding with a wall of text. I do that a lot. Friggen ADHD and computer/information addiction does that to me...


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I greatly prefer a mid-bass & wideband, if doing 2-way.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I think you meant the GS25 not GB25, as a wideband. I’ve gotten ok results using just widebands and a passenger footwell sealed subwoofer with the very low distortion rss265ho, low distortion being crucial there. I would say GS25s, I run them now and they are fine without tweeters, and stout midbass drivers that can hold a candle to a bandpass blowthrough install. If you’re ok cutting the truck I would heavily consider infinite baffle for SQ but a hole to port bandpass would be a good bit smaller.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Hybrid Audio use to make a great wideband. 
I haven't used them since 2015. But I have seen some of the newer and they look pretty good. 
But an 8 inch midbass with a 2 or 2.5 inch wideband is the way to go 2 way.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Put a 6.5 and a tweet in the kick panel.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> If a typical 6.5 and tweeter is the "worst" way, then what's the "best" way? Midrange and tweeter? Midbass and midrange with no tweeter? Midbass and coaxial midrange? Midbass and wideband?
> 
> I'm asking both in general, and specific to the Ford Ranger I'm about to have. I want a KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) loud SQ system with some SPL level bass that murders the lows. I know that last part will be tough in a regular cab that I don't want to do a blow through or sacrifice the passenger seat on, but still.
> 
> ...


Will you be using signal processing of some sort? A widebander and midbass is a well rounded setup, but only if they can have some control over frequency and amplitude at minimum. I don’t remember how a component set in the kicks doesn’t drag the stage down but you might not even care. Maybe Mini will explain in a few words.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Hybrid Audio use to make a great wideband.
> I haven't used them since 2015. But I have seen some of the newer and they look pretty good.
> But an 8 inch midbass with a 2 or 2.5 inch wideband is the way to go 2 way.





420tabbycat said:


> I think you meant the GS25 not GB25, as a wideband. I’ve gotten ok results using just widebands and a passenger footwell sealed subwoofer with the very low distortion rss265ho, low distortion being crucial there. I would say GS25s, I run them now and they are fine without tweeters, and stout midbass drivers that can hold a candle to a bandpass blowthrough install. If you’re ok cutting the truck I would heavily consider infinite baffle for SQ but a hole to port bandpass would be a good bit smaller.





metanium said:


> I greatly prefer a mid-bass & wideband, if doing 2-way.


I won't be cutting the truck. At least not until after it's paid for. As for the wideband, what all counts as a wideband? Does that Tang Band 4 inch mid count as a wideband since it's said that you can run it without a tweeter and it still plays good up and around 10khz? If not, what's the largest size a speaker could be considered a "wideband" and should I focus on a certain construction such as an aluminum cone like the Tang Band 4" has?

To Thomas: I was considering a 6.5" midbass (The peerless SLS to be specific) because of my "no cutting" rule. And also due to airspace and potential mounting depth limitations of the door. The Ford Ranger is a truly small truck. In any case, I wouldn't be making the door into an enclosure, so whatever I put in there would be run "IB" with plenty of deadening and even a cross or wedge-shaped baffle behind the speaker to help disperse the back wave and prevent it from interfering with the cone.

But it looks like a 5x7 or 6x8 or whatever is the stock speaker for that location so I MAY be able to shoehorn an 8" using an adapter. My only issue after that, then, is the cone area on the "wideband". Will a 2.5" or whatever actually get loud enough on the limited wattages that I've seen them advertised as (usually 50 and under) to match an 8" midbass? And furthermore, will the sub-stage (whatever's best in a 1.5 cube gross internal, 2.25 max if I'm lucky) be able to keep up with both of those in the way that I want it to satisfy my basshead desires?

I've currently only listened to under-seat sealed enclosures with two 12's and under 1000W RMS power in crew-cab trucks. I like how they do on the 35-40+ hz, but they don't get low hard enough, especially while driving. They do alright stationary, though, but still not ideal in the sub 35hz range. This leads me to another question.

We don't do ported in SQ due to group delay and lack of definition of the bass notes, right? So, would at least one of those (the group delay) no longer matter in such a small space as a single cab mini-truck? Because I can deal with the ported sound if it gets my lows louder as long as there's no weird delay issues that time alignment can't handle.

Otherwise I'm stuck with either sealed, or a weird combination of a center console and behind the seat box that can possibly be turned into a 4th order if I use the center console section as the sealed portion and have an up-firing port or two. I'm just worried about the bandwidth of a 4th order bass reflex enclosure being too narrow, which is arguably worse for my desires and SQ in general than group delay, I would thing....

IDK... My mind is too scrambled. Thanks for your input so far though, guys.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> Will you be using signal processing of some sort? A widebander and midbass is a well rounded setup, but only if they can have some control over frequency and amplitude at minimum. I don’t remember how a component set in the kicks doesn’t drag the stage down but you might not even care. Maybe Mini will explain in a few words.


I definitely don't want the stage low or behind me. I can deal with armpit level or so and directly to the sides of me. But given how I'll be deleting the rear speakers, I'm not very worried about having the stage behind me.

Yes, I will be using some kind of processing. I was actually considering Kicker's Key series amps a while ago. 4x50 RMS and auto DSP capability with it's own tuning mic. Even comes with a 1x500 (@ 1ohm) subwoofer amp counterpart that I believe can be daisy-chained to it so they can tune together.

But if that's sub-par, I'm totally okay with going to a DSP and separate amp or amps. Just keep in mind I DO have space constraints with it being a regular cab mini-truck, no cutting, AND it's a stick shift manual transmission, so...


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

3 way would be your best bet if you want "loud and clear" sort of system. The couple of systems I've heard with a MB and wideband did sound good, but I felt like they were missing some of the ambience that a tweeter could provide. Beyond that, if you got out of the sweet spot by a couple inches, you lost a good bit of the high end information. So it had the head in a vise sort of feel.
If you do want a KISS system and don't mind some of those issues, than a 2 way with a wideband can work well. But keep in mind that a 3in wideband will be WAY into beaming at +10k, so aiming them is going to be crucial if you want to use them from 300-20k.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Midbass and wideband if I had to do a two way everytime


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I can say that I am very happy with the output of the gs25s, but I don’t like it blaring loud either. The smaller the wideband driver the less “beaming” (you will need to search this and wrap your head around it), this will also answer most questions you have about how big a fullrange can be. 
How old are you? Or more importantly your ears, while the widebanders will lack the most sparkling shimmer, you might not even notice it in all truth. The downside is they will need to be painstakingly aimed in the cabin, because of beaming.
Someone hopefully will talk about how low a tweeter/wideband has to play to keep the stage up. I think it’s around 800hz but may be quite off. I see dumdum is here so hopefully he’ll speak about frequency and stage height.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> I can say that I am very happy with the output of the gs25s, but I don’t like it blaring loud either. The smaller the wideband driver the less “beaming” (you will need to search this and wrap your head around it), this will also answer most questions you have about how big a fullrange can be.
> How old are you? Or more importantly your ears, while the widebanders will lack the most sparkling shimmer, you might not even notice it in all truth. The downside is they will need to be painstakingly aimed in the cabin, because of beaming.
> Someone hopefully will talk about how low a tweeter/wideband has to play to keep the stage up. I think it’s around 800hz but may be quite off. I see dumdum is here so hopefully he’ll speak about frequency and stage height.


I understand beaming and even have a graph of beaming frequencies based on cone-diameter. If I had my way, and the time, money, and patience to do it I'd set up a 4-way front stage with an upper and lower mid.

To answer your question I'm 23. I get a little ringing in my ears every now and then. My brother's sound system kinda hurts my ears on a few frequencies but has gotten better (and now started to grate again) after I bought him new speakers. He's been doing audio longer than I've been alive, but he's been on the SPL side, so all they care about are vocals, highs, bass, and **** being clear and loud AF, so...

Best way to describe his system is to literally do so. He has hertz K165 basics in the front doors with drop in "baffles" and passive tweeters mounted low on the door where the woofer is and they're aimed upward. The rear doors are some 6.5" closed back loudspeakers with the same tweeters (all four from his old set) but due to the door panel that's all mounted a little higher. System is controlled via the double din head unit. No TA, crossovers at 100hz front, 160hz rear, and 80hz sub, all 24db slopes (that I talked barely him into). Amp is a Hifonix Zeus 5 channel. 4x50 and 750x1. IDK his subs but they're shallow mount 12's in a prefab under-seat box, down-firing, and each one is rated at 400W RMS. They're wired down to 1ohm to get the full 750 between them.

It's a very average system given all the "systems" I've heard. Stage is low and kinda to the rear. It misses frequencies where a bass guitar would be. Upper mid male vocals kinda honk and grate, some of the highs hurt. And now that he has those "baffles" in, it hits midbass a little better (the punch on drums) but it kinda sounds like the speakers are in a bucket. Which I suppose makes sense because they literally are in a little rubber bucket.

EDIT: He also has "loudness" set to the lowest setting and a +2 to his source level (Bluetooth) even though I told him _that_ kind of processing not only sounds bad, but all that boosting can probably damage the speakers. Christ, you should've seen how he had it boosted n stuff before. And don't even get me started on his method for EQ compared to what is typically done in SQ.


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

Although I like wideband I agree with Picassotheimpaler that some ambiance that a tweeter provides is missing when running just wideband. Suggestion, Instead of the Gb25 take a look at the Audible Physics RAM 3C or the Illusion audio C3CX if your pockets can swing it. My choice would be the RAM 3C because it gets no simpler and it's priced next to the Gb25.








RAM 3C Miniature Coaxial Loudspeaker Pair


The RAM 3 C by Audible Physics is a new coaxial style driver to can ease the efforts for installation while maintaining a high level of sound quality. Sold in pairs. Passive Crossovers included. Specifications: Overall Diameter: 91.5 mm / 3.60” Cutout diameter: 73mm / 2.875” Mounting Depth...



www.slaacoustics.com


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Dwarteacher said:


> Although I like wideband I agree with Picassotheimpaler that some ambiance that a tweeter provides is missing when running just wideband. Suggestion, Instead of the Gb25 take a look at the Audible Physics RAM 3C or the Illusion audio C3CX if your pockets can swing it. My choice would be the RAM 3C because it gets no simpler and it's priced next to the Gb25.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They definitely can't swing $900. And the RAM 3C seems... Well. Weak. Is there something like either of those that can handle more power for closer to the price of the RAM? And is maybe a bit bigger like 3.5"? Or is 3" midrange all you need to match a 6.5 midbass and 2-ish cubes of sub-stage done right?


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## zak (Oct 2, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> Put a 6.5 and a tweet in the kick panel.


Ditto. I have a midbass in the door, mid in the A pillar, and tweet in the sail panel. Sounds good, but I do miss having it all in the kick panel.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

miniSQ said:


> Put a 6.5 and a tweet in the kick panel.


Small kicks+stick shift means that's probably a no go. IDK.


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

Drunken Hamster said:


> They definitely can't swing $900. And the RAM 3C seems... Well. Weak. Is there something like either of those that can handle more power for closer to the price of the RAM? And is maybe a bit bigger like 3.5"? Or is 3" midrange all you need to match a 6.5 midbass and 2-ish cubes of sub-stage done right?


The overall diameter of the RAM 3C is 3.5". It doesn't take much power to reproduce the frequencies this driver will be task with doing.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Dwarteacher said:


> The overall diameter of the RAM 3C is 3.5". It doesn't take much power to reproduce the frequencies this driver will be task with doing.


I can't tell based on the pictures, but is it a coax with separated hookups like the C3CX, or is it a normal coax? Would it be acceptable to run this with a passive crossover (so, active 2 way with the DSP, and the crossover handles the tweeter)? Would both the midrange and tweeter play tweeter frequencies, or does the crossover bandpass the midrange?


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## zak (Oct 2, 2007)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Small kicks+stick shift means that's probably a no go. IDK.


I've only ever had a stick shift. If you have passengers a lot of the time, that's more of a worry.


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## 50TYSON (Mar 7, 2011)

I like my GS690 + GS25 combo! But there's nothing like a good 3-way!


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## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

I'll second the GS690 + GS25. Although I lost quite a bit of volume (about 6DB) going with the 2-way vs if I added tweeters, as well as having some weird dip at 10K, the system sounds very good and I do not miss the tweeters in terms of "sparkle." Mind you, I tune to Whitledge or Half Whitledge so...
I also have a set of CDT Unity 8.0 that I plan to try out for comparison in place of the GS25s when I have some time to take my dash apart again. The CDTs are also widebands and people running them speak highly of them.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Drunken Hamster said:


> I won't be cutting the truck. At least not until after it's paid for. As for the wideband, what all counts as a wideband? Does that Tang Band 4 inch mid count as a wideband since it's said that you can run it without a tweeter and it still plays good up and around 10khz? If not, what's the largest size a speaker could be considered a "wideband" and should I focus on a certain construction such as an aluminum cone like the Tang Band 4" has?
> 
> To Thomas: I was considering a 6.5" midbass (The peerless SLS to be specific) because of my "no cutting" rule. And also due to airspace and potential mounting depth limitations of the door. The Ford Ranger is a truly small truck. In any case, I wouldn't be making the door into an enclosure, so whatever I put in there would be run "IB" with plenty of deadening and even a cross or wedge-shaped baffle behind the speaker to help disperse the back wave and prevent it from interfering with the cone.
> 
> ...


I just noticed you are in a ranger. That is a very small cabin so getting the drivers as wide and as far away from you as you can. Being as how you do not want to cut anything the easiest or best way to do a 2 way set up is kinda a nil point here then. 
What you're really looking for is how to do it best in your ranger. 
That's a bit easier. 
The door speakers are 5x7/6x8. Just to get a set of beefier 6.5s in you would need to make the cut out round or build off the door about an inch. Then the window track is right there so depth is an issue too as well as the space you have between the inner door and door card grill is really thin too. 
I suggest a very simple set up for you man. 
If you try and do round drivers....you may be limited to 5.25 inch. 
In this situation a set components...usually I suggest th3 jl audio 6x8 c5 components. They sound great. Drop right in like they were made for it. And the xovers have 4 levels of tweeter att. And 3 midrange options. 
That a modest 4 or 5 channel amp and a sealed 12 will sound great in that little cabin. 
Anything other than that and I have to cut stuff. Even with 6x8s dropping right in....I still cut the plastic on the back of the doorcard to have flat surface to meet with foam to seal the driver to the door card. Otherwise the plastic hits the surround.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I just noticed you are in a ranger. That is a very small cabin so getting the drivers as wide and as far away from you as you can. Being as how you do not want to cut anything the easiest or best way to do a 2 way set up is kinda a nil point here then.
> What you're really looking for is how to do it best in your ranger.
> That's a bit easier.
> The door speakers are 5x7/6x8. Just to get a set of beefier 6.5s in you would need to make the cut out round or build off the door about an inch. Then the window track is right there so depth is an issue too as well as the space you have between the inner door and door card grill is really thin too.
> ...


I'm not really a soundstage wh*re. As long as left and right are to the left and right of me, I more care about the stage not being too low or behind me. Deleting the rear speakers will take care of the behind me part, but having the midrange come out from higher up will raise it, hence wanting widebands or midranges in my 2-way.

Also, to refine my "no cutting" rule, I more meant "no cutting big obvious holes in the sheet metal to the outside or otherwise compromising structural stability". I can always go get a set of door panels from a junkyard if a screw them up. But I can't weld a patch onto the back wall if I do a blow-through, nor can I replace the inner door skin if I'm trying to remove it to build a midbass enclosure.

As far as other efforts, I _really _don't want to glass or mold anything, but I'll do it for ONE set of speakers/holes/pods, and that would be in the pillars for either widebands or midrange coaxials. And, of course I'll buy or make drop in spacers/adapters for the doors and even cut a hole in the door panel to allow the speaker to poke through if I mush. At least for now. If I wind up comfortable with all of that, then maybe I'll go hog wild on my next build with a 4-way front stage and an IB sub-stage.

Alternatively to all of this, I could just get 6x9 3-way "coaxials" and bridge the front and rear channels on the amp and squeeze two 12's into that 2-ish cubes of space I should have behind the seats for POWWAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!


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## arsuoni (Mar 18, 2021)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Even comes with a 1x500 (@ 1ohm) subwoofer amp counterpart that I believe can be daisy-chained to it so they can tune together.


The Key 500.1 unfortunately can’t be daisy-chained to the 200.4, it has no knowledge of the 200.4 or it’s EQ and TA. To correct bass roll off the 500.1 does an electrical correction of the incoming signal, there is no acoustic EQ on the output.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

arsuoni said:


> The Key 500.1 unfortunately can’t be daisy-chained to the 200.4, it has no knowledge of the 200.4 or it’s EQ and TA. To correct bass roll off the 500.1 does an electrical correction of the incoming signal, there is no acoustic EQ on the output.


So is there any point in getting the 500.1 besides having matching amps if I'm running an aftermarket headunit?


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm... A dummy. I totally disregarded the rear window. I can get a bed cap and remove the rear window and do a blow through that way. Not cutting of the back wall. Heck, I could get a sliding rear window and do it that way, too, but that would admittedly be a little more work than simple removal. I wouldn't have to worry about breaking the old glass if I ever wanted to put it back in, though. Just remove the coupler between the cap and cab, take off the cap, and slide the rear window closed.


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## arsuoni (Mar 18, 2021)

Drunken Hamster said:


> So is there any point in getting the 500.1 besides having matching amps if I'm running an aftermarket headunit?


No probably not if you don’t need/want the signal correction and are using preouts with the HU crossover. The Key’s pair well by matching matching crossover slopes at 24dB though. You could get a similar Toro MR2 or MR3 for less, but they have a 12 dB crossover slope. Others seem to like them though.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Why has no one mentioned silverflute 6.5" for the doors? I just put a set in my gto and I was blown away at the difference between them and a set of fosgate separates. They sound better without a tweeter than the fosgates with a tweeter. Only 30 something bucks each.....you cant beat that. You could get away with a set of silver flutes and some dayton air motion tweets...just make sure you run the tweets off radio power and crossed over high enough. I blew the first set running on a fosgate 4x100 and crossed over too low....they are very fragile.....but sound fantastic.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Drunken Hamster said:


> I'm not really a soundstage wh*re. As long as left and right are to the left and right of me, I more care about the stage not being too low or behind me. Deleting the rear speakers will take care of the behind me part, but having the midrange come out from higher up will raise it, hence wanting widebands or midranges in my 2-way.
> 
> Also, to refine my "no cutting" rule, I more meant "no cutting big obvious holes in the sheet metal to the outside or otherwise compromising structural stability". I can always go get a set of door panels from a junkyard if a screw them up. But I can't weld a patch onto the back wall if I do a blow-through, nor can I replace the inner door skin if I'm trying to remove it to build a midbass enclosure.
> 
> ...


Ok ok ok .....now we are talking. I know you mentioned the not cutting the door metal. 
But...that oval hole socks to try and work around. The magnet to whatever midbass you want is most likely going to be almost the same size. 
Some will not even fit without cutting. 
So if you could cut juuuuust a little metal. 
That would open some doors up as far as what midbass would fit. 
So new plan. 
The depth is horrible cause of the window track. 
So once you have inlarged that oval hole into a round one. You will notice that since it was a 6x8 if you start at the end of each side of the oval and just make it round. So you make the slimmest part of the oval as wide as the widest. 
Which just so happens to be....about 8 inches man. 
So a pair of 8s in the doors and a wideband. 
The right 8s and you may not even need a sub. 
Cutting the metal is not a biggie here either man. 
A simple abs adapter and some pawn shop coax will fit right back in and the metal you remove is not structural in anyway. 
Then you just need some widebands and a little eq. 
But without making the oval hole a circle its gonna be tough. 
I could not fit a set 6.5 inch Id ctx midbass. They are bulky but once I cut the metal it was a breeze. 
The magnet would not even fit through the whole. It just ball did right in the center but then it was almost sealed. 
The metal cuts with tin snips. I cleaned it up with a file. Took like 30 mins. By hand.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Ok ok ok .....now we are talking. I know you mentioned the not cutting the door metal.
> But...that oval hole socks to try and work around. The magnet to whatever midbass you want is most likely going to be almost the same size.
> Some will not even fit without cutting.
> So if you could cut juuuuust a little metal.
> ...


Nice. Would you recommend a larger wideband like a 2.75 or 3 as opposed to a 2-2.5, or are the differences really minimal? I'm used to the volumes of headunit power and also have a pair of 4" (with tweeters) bookshelf speakers that are supposedly 15W RMS and sound good in my house.

I believe I had some OLD 3" full range a long time ago and those, to my memory, with a 4" sub under my feet also got decently loud enough. I'm just wondering if those levels will be enough in the environment of a car going down the road to keep up with an epic 12" or two 10" or something in 2 cubes of volume.

EDIT: The exact models of my current and old speakers are; Current: Edifier 1700BT Old: Altec Lansing ACS340 Just in case you've heard those in person and can give me a comparison to what a widebander and mid bass would sound like in a car.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Nice. Would you recommend a larger wideband like a 2.75 or 3 as opposed to a 2-2.5, or are the differences really minimal? I'm used to the volumes of headunit power and also have a pair of 4" (with tweeters) bookshelf speakers that are supposedly 15W RMS and sound good in my house.
> 
> I believe I had some OLD 3" full range a long time ago and those, to my memory, with a 4" sub under my feet also got decently loud enough. I'm just wondering if those levels will be enough in the environment of a car going down the road to keep up with an epic 12" or two 10" or something in 2 cubes of volume.


Well, yes and no. The lower octaves tend to get overlapped with the tire and wind noise. So you have to overcome that. 
If I was you I would be doing and audiofrog or morel 2.5 and if It seemed a little dull or if I wanted a little more sparkle I would a small .75 inch tweeter at that point. The morel 8 inch midbass and the morel 2.5 inch seem to be winners here.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Well, yes and no. The lower octaves tend to get overlapped with the tire and wind noise. So you have to overcome that.
> If I was you I would be doing an audiofrog or morel 2.5 and if It seemed a little dull or if I wanted a little more sparkle I would a small .75 inch tweeter at that point. The morel 8-inch midbass and the morel 2.5 inch seem to be winners here.


Those are personally a little pricy for me. I'm very much a budget-minded and bang for buck kinda guy. What about these? Dayton Audio CX120-8 or something similar? These basically look like C3CX for dirt cheap.

As far as the midbass, I've heard great things about the Peerless SLS and was, as such, considering those. Assuming I do a good deadening job and can make the doors as close to an anechoic chamber as possible, how would you convince me to move from a ~$100 woofer to a $450 woofer?

Edit: Also, I edited my last post.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Silver Flute W17RC38-04 ohm 6-1/2" Wool Cone


Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" Woofer Wool Cone - 4 ohms Features include rubber surround and robust cast metal frame




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

KFXGUY said:


> Silver Flute W17RC38-04 ohm 6-1/2" Wool Cone
> 
> 
> Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" Woofer Wool Cone - 4 ohms Features include rubber surround and robust cast metal frame
> ...


I like the sensitivity and power handling on that. As well as the frequency response. Looks like it's flat out to 500hz, which is kinda perfect from what I understand. The 2" port that's 6" long is tempting, NGL. I bet the door would constitute 0.4 cubic feet, at least. (But then again I don't really want to worry about a "subsonic filter" on my midbass woofers.)

It's even dirt cheap. I just wish it were an 8"

Edit: They also have an 8.


----------



## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

KFXGUY said:


> Silver Flute W17RC38-04 ohm 6-1/2" Wool Cone
> 
> 
> Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" Woofer Wool Cone - 4 ohms Features include rubber surround and robust cast metal frame
> ...


People seem to like the flutes, but the specs are misleading, at least to me. Real low qts but the advertised plot shows it digging quite deep and falling off steeply around ~50hz??


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)




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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> People seem to like the flutes, but the specs are misleading, at least to me. Real low qts but the advertised plot shows it digging quite deep and falling off steeply around ~50hz??


Yeah, I assume that's with the 6" x 2" port they want in 0.4 cubes. I _really_ dig how the peerless SLS 8 is showing an F3 of 47hz with 1-1.5 cubes sealed. That's EPIC for a midbass, IMO. But, then again, wouldn't the upper freqs suffer? The ones I need it to handle for a widebander to keep up? 

Another thing I'm worried about with the widebander is something I read a while ago about them. They need to be crossed higher than the typical midrange, more at 400-600hz and up than the typical 200-300 for like a 3.5" to 4" midrange, but apparently that screws with female vocals, and I... Kinda don't want that. IDK. What do you think?


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Those are personally a little pricy for me. I'm very much a budget-minded and bang for buck kinda guy. What about these? Dayton Audio CX120-8 or something similar? These basically look like C3CX for dirt cheap.
> 
> As far as the midbass, I've heard great things about the Peerless SLS and was, as such, considering those. Assuming I do a good deadening job and can make the doors as close to an anechoic chamber as possible, how would you convince me to move from a ~$100 woofer to a $450 woofer?
> 
> Edit: Also, I edited my last post.


The sls is great choice for midbass. I cant convince you. I was going to reference it it too. But I didn't know your budget. The sls will be good up to about 400 hertz. With a sealed and treated door they will bang. 
As far as the widebander goes though I have not used either of those. Or heard them unfortunately. 
I also have not have good luck with cheap wideband drivers either. 
With the volume required for playful listening at highway speed and I have lost them all. 
I put a set of sls 8s and hybrid Audio 2.5s in my father in laws work van. Even off axis in the dash they still have a usable roll off on the top end.
I think payed 300 hundred here in Atlanta. A few years ago though so idk about post pandemic pricing and all. 
I think there might be a thing with the spiders "hardening over time" whatever that means. I've never encountered soft parts on a speaker that stiffen up over time. 
Unless it was foam. .
You can most likely find some used drivers in the classified section that would work pretty nice.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Yeah, I assume that's with the 6" x 2" port they want in 0.4 cubes. I _really_ dig how the peerless SLS 8 is showing an F3 of 47hz with 1-1.5 cubes sealed. That's EPIC for a midbass, IMO. But, then again, wouldn't the upper freqs suffer? The ones I need it to handle for a widebander to keep up?
> 
> Another thing I'm worried about with the widebander is something I read a while ago about them. They need to be crossed higher than the typical midrange, more at 400-600hz and up than the typical 200-300 for like a 3.5" to 4" midrange, but apparently that screws with female vocals, and I... Kinda don't want that. IDK. What do you think?


I cross my gs25s at 200, when I ran them without the tweeters they were still quite good. I’m going say screwing with the human voice freq depends on how smooth the phase is at the x-over point.
I’ve always wondered how these would do IB in doors 








Home


Dayton Audio DCS165-4 6-1/2" Classic Subwoofer 4 OhmDayton Audio's rugged DCS165-4 6-1/2" subwoofer has all of the performance-enhancing attributes you would expect from a larger high-output subwoofer. With a vented pole piece and 4 ohm, 4-layer voice coil, this driver can handle up 100 watt...




www.parts-express.com


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Should be able to run up to 500hz


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

420tabbycat said:


> View attachment 305106


The cones are made of untreated wool and while they are cheap and do work for a little more coin you can find a much better driver for a car door.
The basket on them seems to be kinda brittle too. I've cracked 2 of them. Drilling slowly. The stock screw holes are super tiny. It's hard to find rivnuts that small. 
And drywall or self tapper most definitely will not fit. 
But they are pretty ok.


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## LimpCroissaint (May 18, 2021)

Here's another option for you since you're looking for a 2 way with a wider band driver:
MX-282 (mx-designs.com)


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

When I was on a wideband bender a member said these were great 









Home


Tectonic TEBM35C10-4 BMR 2" Full-Range Speaker 4 OhmBy combining the benefits of bending-wave technology and pistonic modes of operation, Tectonic's TEBM35C10-4 BMR 2" full-range delivers extended frequency response and extremely wide directivity. The small form-factor is ideally suited for...




www.parts-express.com


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> I cross my gs25s at 200, when I ran them without the tweeters they were still quite good. I’m going say screwing with the human voice freq depends on how smooth the phase is at the x-over point.
> I’ve always wondered how these would do IB in doors
> 
> 
> ...











I'd assume somewhere around here? Maybe closer to 60, IDK. Like I literally have no idea.

Also, in your second post, is that the SLS or the Silver Flute?

And, hmm. No luck on low 100's of $ widebanders? Just mid and up? Well piss... I guess if I AM doing a proper deadening build it would be worth it to spend upwards of 300 or so on a pair of speakers... IDK.

**** both the GS25 AND the GB25 seem to handle upwards of 50W... Maybe them paired with the kicker key amp I was thinking of IS the solution.....


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

GB25 isn’t good as a fullrange from what I remember.

I didn’t mention the sls8, I posted the Dayton 6.5” subwoofer that I have always wondered how it would do in a door crossed around 70-90hz. If you’re talking about my statement about low qts it was about the flute. The sls8 is well regarded around here. 

Look on madisound and parts express, widebandchoices for all budgets. The flat 2” is really interesting. Look at peerless fullrangers, some people really like those.

I got confused on the rest of your reply


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> GB25 isn’t good as a fullrange from what I remember.
> 
> I didn’t mention the sls8, I posted the Dayton 6.5” subwoofer that I have always wondered how it would do in a door crossed around 70-90hz. If you’re talking about my statement about low qts it was about the flute. The sls8 is well regarded around here.
> 
> ...


Oh, okay so this:


> And, hmm. No luck on low 100's of $ widebanders? Just mid $100's and up? Well piss... I guess if I AM doing a proper deadening build it would be worth it to spend upwards of 300 or so on a pair of speakers... IDK.


 Was about either you or someone else mentioning that every "cheap" wideband they tried sucked. I was thinking of the price of the GB25 audio frogs that are $450 a pair, and I assumed that's what everyone meant when they said GS25.

It was only after I googled both models that I realized the both existed and were different. The second half of that statement was me realizing that perhaps a $300+ pair of speakers WOULD be worth it since I'm (unlike most normies) doing a full deadening build.

And this:


> both the GS25 AND the GB25 seem to handle upwards of 50W... Maybe them paired with the kicker key amp I was thinking of IS the solution.....


 Was after I realized that both sets of Audiofrog 2.5" wideband could handle the 50 watts that the kicker Key amp I was considering puts out. The reason I was considering that amp, in particular, is because it has DSP functionality including an auto-tuning feature and a microphone that it comes with.

To be more specific, I was going to get a head unit that could time align, and I would handle everything except time alignment with the auto-tune of the Kicker Key, and then time-align on my head-unit so that the subwoofers (which wouldn't be on the kicker key amp) would also be time-aligned with the front stage.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Love this term


Drunken Hamster said:


> (unlike most normies


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Have you determined your max mounting depth for the doors? Seems odd to have specific driver recommendations without knowing if they will fit or not.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

LimpCroissaint said:


> Here's another option for you since you're looking for a 2 way with a wider band driver:
> MX-282 (mx-designs.com)





420tabbycat said:


> When I was on a wideband bender a member said these were great
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to be that guy to both of you, but despite my nativity, I still think that both of these would be going the wrong way in terms of size of the widebander.

To LimpCroissaint: I also think your idea is the wrong path because it won't tell me the specs on the midbass, and I fear it may be worse than the Peerless SLS, especially given the little thing here about "power handling... HPF 100hz"


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Oh, okay so this: Was about either you or someone else mentioning that every "cheap" wideband they tried sucked. I was thinking of the price of the GB25 audio frogs that are $450 a pair, and I assumed that's what everyone meant when they said GS25.
> 
> It was only after I googled both models that I realized the both existed and were different. The second half of that statement was me realizing that perhaps a $300+ pair of speakers WOULD be worth it since I'm (unlike most normies) doing a full deadening build.
> 
> ...


You might find my deadening job non-normie 









Interesting results after full fiberglass baffle over...


I built a ~.25cf enclosure to test possible mounting positions for my midbass. Most of the locations I tried had much better phase behavior then the door install, even when I positioned it about where the door midbass is. This is completely surprising especially when the enclosure is right where...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

maybebigfootisblurr said:


> Have you determined your max mounting depth for the doors? Seems odd to have specific driver recommendations without knowing if they will fit or not.


No idea. But I'm prepared to have the midbass poke through the door panel for the whole shebang to work.

Given a couple of things I've read today about dash-mounted widebands pointed at the windshield, I might consider just drilling the dash and slapping them in-ish. But I've also prepared mentally to have to make pillar pods, so I'm not worried nor will I be disappointed if the dash isn't a good idea.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Post a picture of the sail area


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Drunken Hamster said:


> No idea. But I'm prepared to have the midbass poke through the door panel for the whole shebang to work.
> 
> Given a couple of things I've read today about dash-mounted widebands pointed at the windshield, I might consider just drilling the dash and slapping them in-ish. But I've also prepared mentally to have to make pillar pods, so I'm not worried nor will I be disappointed if the dash isn't a good idea.


Everything I've read on wide bands in the dash seemed to be a little more involved. 
Also, I'm certain Tabby has actual experience with at least a couple of wide bands...


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> You might find my deadening job non-normie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the kinda stuff that I was thinking of. CLD, CCF, MLF, and fiberglass wrapped in ultra-thin plastic and stuff like I saw on another build.

However, my initial response was:

_First page: _Man, if I'm gonna do all of that, I might as well just cut the door panel and make boxes and do my original full batsh*t 4-way front stage idea. But then I'd also be spending hella more $ on a 10ch DSP and more amps and stuff. I'd also then have to buy a mic for tuning and so on and so forth. Not really worth it for a Ford Ranger I'm making payments on, IDK...

_Second page: _Holy CRAP, just glassing the hole made you not need a box!? Cool, now we're back in the game with the KISS build. No more boxes, cutting metal out, crazy glassing, aperiodic vents, 10ch DSP or NOTHIN. :3


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

maybebigfootisblurr said:


> Everything I've read on wide bands in the dash seemed to be a little more involved.
> Also, I'm certain Tabby has actual experience with at least a couple of wide bands...


I’ve run and critically listened to, (at least to my abilitys) the GS25, CDT ES-02, Founteks FR88EX and the Dayton RS100P which isn’t a fullrange but has a very wide useable response. Almost a year ago I was all up diymobiles ars asking millions of questions about fullrange drivers. Work swallowed my ability to concentrate on anything else but I’m finding time during summer to get involved again, I am a tad rusty however.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

maybebigfootisblurr said:


> Everything I've read on wide bands in the dash seemed to be a little more involved.
> Also, I'm certain Tabby has actual experience with at least a couple of wide bands...


Involved how? Install, tuning, or both?


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Yeah, that's the kinda stuff that I was thinking of. CLD, CCF, MLF, and fiberglass wrapped in ultra-thin plasted and stuff like I saw on another build.
> 
> However my initial response was:
> 
> ...


It really surprised me when fully cured and measured with a rta.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Yeah, that's the kinda stuff that I was thinking of. CLD, CCF, MLF, and fiberglass wrapped in ultra-thin plasted and stuff like I saw on another build.
> 
> However my initial response was:
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that I used noico 80mil (dynamat) as a first layer on the door then masking taped everything before 3-4 glass layers. Some dsp work and it was pretty flat response.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> Post a picture of the sail area


Not my truck, but same model, so.





















Also, of all the widebands/fullranges you say you've tried only the Audiofrog will handle the power I'll be sending to it. That Fountek seemed really cool since it was 3" and a metal cone.

I know metal cones are stiff and supposed to be bright, so I get the impression that it would handle highs really well and have CRISP mids. It just can't handle 50W according to specs, and apparently it's discontinued?

Plus there's still the you or whoever that claimed they had bad experiences with any cheap wideband, so IDK.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Not my truck, but same model, so.
> 
> View attachment 305122
> View attachment 305123
> ...


Founteks had some distortion somewhere that I wasn’t down with, I don’t remember where exactly. I do remember clearly the cone breakup that is characteristic of cheap metal cones. Crisp and bright can sometimes be the breakup and harmonic distortion. The paper cone CDT ES-02 was a nice sounding speaker with the warmth from 2nd or 3rd harmonics that’s expected of paper cones. The RS100P was a nice driver but big for my taste on the sails.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Not my truck, but same model, so.
> 
> View attachment 305122
> View attachment 305123
> ...


There’s some caveats with power, I believe many fullrange drivers are rated at a full bandwidth. So with a noise signal through a 100w amp channel at 20hz is considerably less by 200 hertz Audiofrog has an article about this. “Pink noise and why your tweeter never sees 100 watts” or something.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> Founteks had some distortion somewhere that I wasn’t down with, I don’t remember where exactly. I do remember clearly the cone breakup that is characteristic of cheap metal cones. Crisp and bright can sometimes be the breakup and harmonic distortion. The paper cone CDT ES-02 was a nice sounding speaker with the warmth from 2nd or 3rd harmonics that’s expected of paper cones. The RS100P was a nice driver but big for my taste on the sails.


Yeah, a 3.5 or 4 is big for sails or A's for my opinion, too. 3 max, otherwise it's going in the dash or door.

Looking on Crutchfield (not the most variety, there) there are other 2.75's and 3" speakers. Like Kicker, Memphis, Morel, Infinity, Alpine, Hertz, JBL, Kenwood... Screw it, here's the link. Size: Other Anything besides the frogs that you think might be promising for the price, or should I look to other vendors that actually list a wider range of available products?

EDIT for your recent reply. So you're saying they should all be fine? I really wouldn't want to run into any warranty issues and a manufacturer trying to gyp me for whatever reason...


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Basically don’t be scared of a 20w rms 2” fullrange driver.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Yeah, a 3.5 or 4 is big for sails or A's for my opinion, too. 3 max, otherwise it's going in the dash or door.
> 
> Looking on Crutchfield (not the most variety, there) there are other 2.75's and 3" speakers. Like Kicker, Memphis, Morel, Infinity, Alpine, Hertz, JBL, Kenwood... Screw it, here's the link. Size: Other Anything besides the frogs that you think might be promising for the price, or should I look to other vendors that actually list a wider range of available products?
> 
> EDIT for your recent reply. So you're saying they should all be fine? I really wouldn't want to run into any warranty issues and a manufacturer trying to gyp me for whatever reason...


Search the morel 2.5” wideband on here, might be right in your comfort zone price wise and size wise. I don’t remember if they’re expensive though but I think around $200 or less. I’ll point out again that I haven’t looked into widebanders in 7-8 months and my memory is fuzzy on a few things car audio wise.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

The only thing that I've read you are thinking about that is kinda.....
The Kicker is only 50x4. 
The sls will do the best with about 100. Also to my knowledge they are independent of each other. It would be great to bridge one to midnass and the other to the widebands and a small tweeter somewhere. 
But they can't do that. I don't think. 

These Morel CCWR254 Wide Range Series 2-1/2" midrange speakers at Crutchfield
I have heard and sound pretty good. Detailed. But laid back. Some eq can sharpen the sound up pretty easily though. 
And these Audiofrog GS25 GS Series 2-1/2" midrange car speakers at Crutchfield

Both are very cost effective and sound really nice.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

If you’re looking at the $100 point there is a member who loves the cdt unity fullrangers. He fires them off the windshield and said he prefers them to some high end stuff, illusion audio c3, gs25 and probably some others. He seemed like he was able to sample nice speakers without too much worry about cost, I would think he would be all over this post but maybe he’s not very active currently.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I can’t be held accountable for suggesting the unity’s, cdt is an odd company, but the customer service was good in my experience. Like I said I had the es02 pods but I couldn’t live with the pods on my dashboard but something like that might actually work good for you as you don’t have removable sail panels like I had to work with.









Trip through memory lane finding this lol. The left is my current sails and you can see the cdt 2” pods.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Figure I’ll show what I built on my sails


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> Figure I’ll show what I built on my sails
> View attachment 305130


Huh. Nice. What are the holes for?


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Huh. Nice. What are the holes for?


The grills


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

They’re about as stealth as sail monitors can be. Flat black with dull black grill cloth. Ol tabby is a grower not a shower.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Just a lot of time and patience, my second sail job ever.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Yeah, I just might run those 2's in a dash pod like that for simplicity. Plus they'll handle 100W apparently, which will allow me to upgrade the power all round incl to the peerless 8's. The problem then arises that I'd have to buy a dedicated DSP, or a 5 channel amp with 4x100 and 1xwhatever with DSP built-in. And I still don't know what to do for the sub-stage at all.

I'll have, at best, around 2 cubes net internal or so to work with. I definitely can't fathom I'll have more than 2.5, and in that case, the box WILL be touching the seatbacks. And there's only space enough between the seats for an 8" driver to not impact the seats with its surround. Though I have seen one center console box where a dude had a 10" firing into his side, so...


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> _img cut
> img cut_
> Just a lot of time and patience, my second sail job ever.


What is that stuff? Doesn't look like FG...


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

Really take a look at the Morel 2.5 speakers. For a reasonable $175ish they have great reviews and I had them for a hot minute before I went with a larger 4.5” Scanspeak midrange on the dash. The Morels are a nice littler speaker, play them down to 400htz easily, and they are small enough that if you don’t put them on the dash, a pod isn’t much trouble. You gotta remember your midrange and especially a wide band is covering the vast majority of the frequency range, they are a very important speaker. Don’t worry about the power ratings as much, they aren’t seeing that much power to get to your normal DB levels. I have my mids and teeets on a 150.4 amp, doesn’t mean my tweeter is getting 150 watts…


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

chrisp2493 said:


> Really take a look at the Morel 2.5 speakers. For a reasonable $175ish they have great reviews and I had them for a hot minute before I went with a larger 4.5” Scanspeak midrange on the dash. The Morels are a nice little speaker, play them down to 400htz easily, and they are small enough that if you don’t put them on the dash, a pod isn’t much trouble. You gotta remember your midrange and especially a wideband is covering the vast majority of the frequency range, they are a very important speaker. Don’t worry about the power ratings as much, they aren’t seeing that much power to get to your normal DB levels. I have my mids and tweets on a 150.4 amp, That doesn’t mean my tweeter is getting 150 watts…


Wouldn't a 150.4 be like 38W a channel?

By the way, by "on the dash" do you mean flat _in _the dash, or in their own surface-mount pods like the ES02's?

And don't worry, I'm not going to cheap out on them. I WILL hunt for a bargain, though. Wherever I find one. Personally, I feel really safe with the Audiofrog GS25. Plays to 200/250 according to several here, and is rated at 70W. Similar story with the ES02's except 100W and about half the price.

The only thing I worry about those is cone area for volume and the mids keeping up with the midbass and substage. I'm a size wh*re I guess. "cone area is king" as they say for bass. And this line of thinking makes me want to lean more towards the 3" side of things than the 2" side for a widebander.

I WILL absolutely glass pods to keep a 3" widebander on axis if it'll give me significant volume for the midrange over a 2" or 2.5". Or if someone can absolutely say and/or prove that a 2.5" or 2" will keep up with the peerless SLS 8" and 130-145DB substage.

I could be more specific, but then we get into specific response curves and how human hearing works, and let me just say that I do want a _rising_ sub stage towards about 30hz with an f3 after the peak incl cabin gain to be 25hz-ish, ideally. Though that all can move about 5hz-ish as long as 27 or 28 or so is the f6 or whatever.

Nothing I really listen to goes below the upper-mid 20's and most of it is low 30's and up. I also don't think I'll ever get into ultra decaf so the mid to lower 20's don't matter that much to me. And I only even mention 25 because I personally want to rebass a song and the root low note would be a rolling 26hz. I've literally listened to sine waves to decide.

Anyway, sorry for that wall of text. My mind is a huge throbbing clusterfuck and I know it's really unapproachable sometimes, but please. Don't be intimidated. _I'm_ the one that has a lot to sort through, you just make use of the relevant parts of this gibberish for your reply.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

The cdt is pretty good. Not the morel and all but th3 cdt in the pod will get just low enough to mate with the sls.
But if building sails is an option then the morel with small tweeter in sails like what is pictured below is pretty good.

Also....I like how we have went from the easiest 2way.
To a sail panel build with 8s in the doors.
Edit to say... volume will not be an issue as long as you keep the xover appropriate. The morel crossed at 350 or 400 will get as loud as you want. So would any of the widebands really. A 1inch tweeter with .5 mil xman can get to 1500 if you choose one with a deep chamber. So the mids should have no problem. 
Also...the 140db sub stage is new. Th3 last sub I saw you mention was something about a 4 inch? Lol. This place sucks you in man.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> The cdt is pretty good. Not the morel and all but th3 cdt in the pod will get just low enough to mate with the sls.
> But if building sails is an option then the morel with small tweeter in sails like what is pictured below is pretty good.
> 
> Also....I like how we have went from the easiest 2way.
> ...


Oh that 4" thing was something I used on my computer. 140db-ish of sub-stage was always my goal. Or rather "significantly louder and deeper than two 12's sealed in an under-seat 2 cubic foot box out of a crew cab truck"

I'd be building A pillers, not sails, though. And I really want to do without a 5th and 6th channel. I hear so much good about running speakers active, I wouldn't want to f*ck that up by adding a passive tweeter.

IDK. Just feel like if I were going to go through the trouble I might as well go active 3-way. And if I did that and had to make door enclosures, I might as well go active 4-way, and my $3000 or so system all in just doubled in price and tripled in complexity. Or worse.

All to go in a rinky-dink mini truck instead of something deserving of that dedication like any of my dream cars.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Oh that 4" thing was something I used on my computer. 140db-ish of sub-stage was always my goal. Or rather "significantly louder and deeper than two 12's sealed in an under-seat 2 cubic foot box out of a crew cab truck"
> 
> I'd be building A pillers, not sails, though. And I really want to do without a 5th and 6th channel. I hear so much good about running speakers active, I wouldn't want to f*ck that up by adding a passive tweeter.
> 
> ...


Ah...now I get it. I think a simple two way with 6.5 and tweeter is the way you should go. 
Or passive 3way. 
Mids and tweets close together in a pod ran on two channels. 
The midbass on 2 channels and then the subwoofers. 
You could make a passive 3 way sound good with just the dsp built into most decks these days. 
The mid and tweets ran off the front channels. 
The midbass on the rears. Sub you know. 
Then you still have time alignment for all the channels.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Ah...now I get it. I think a simple two way with 6.5 and tweeter is the way you should go.
> Or passive 3way.
> Mids and tweets close together in a pod ran on two channels.
> The midbass on 2 channels and then the subwoofers.
> ...


If I'm doing that, then I'll get something like a concentric coaxial mid like the C3CX. But, well, quite frankly a WAAYYY cheaper equivalent from another manufacturer. Like $300 to $450 absolute max for a pair. And I also do really want the 8" midbass just to be different. And for some crazy punch.

IDK, now I'm sleep-deprived and not thinking clearly. I'll see you guys tomorrow. Thanks for the help so far!


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

If younwant to go with bigger midbass - 8" or 10", I would pair it with a high quality widebander.... you will have less issues to pair those two than big midbass with classical tweeter. A step further would be 3-way front, but on higher expense - additional two amped channels and a pair of mids.


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Wouldn't a 150.4 be like 38W a channel?


No I mean as in 150 watts per channel for a zapco SQ amp. Also you’re thinking size is king, but that’s only for bass, it goes the opposite way for highs, especially when you aren’t running a tweeter. So a larger 3”+ driver is just going to start beaming and would be better off in a 3 way with some tuning. If you even think about using a larger mid range, they probably better be on axis or you’re just killing yourself.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> What is that stuff? Doesn't look like FG...


Here’s a few more steps in the process. 

1.The initial spandex stretch

2.They have been glassed and body fillered

3.This is the part after the picture when all the gunk is slathered on them in the sail, it’s more body filler, I did this so all the gaps would be like a mold for a stock looking fit.

4.When the body filler was cured I sanded all the excess while continuously checking fit on door. You can see the frame of the grills here as well.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Grill frame and grill cloth and frame mounts from parts express.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

420tabbycat said:


> People seem to like the flutes, but the specs are misleading, at least to me. Real low qts but the advertised plot shows it digging quite deep and falling off steeply around ~50hz??


thats correct, I have mine crossed over at 63hz because below that they get muddy....but they are in the doors with no enclosure. I have a set of tang bang 6.5" in the rear deck to cover the lower end and to supplement the mid bass. But the silverflutes sound phenomenal AND heads and shoulders above anything ive ever owned. They are VERY loud and clear. for $32 each, amazing.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> The cones are made of untreated wool and while they are cheap and do work for a little more coin you can find a much better driver for a car door.
> The basket on them seems to be kinda brittle too. I've cracked 2 of them. Drilling slowly. The stock screw holes are super tiny. It's hard to find rivnuts that small.
> And drywall or self tapper most definitely will not fit.
> But they are pretty ok.


What have you experienced that sounds better? For not much more coin should I say? I ask because maybe that would be a good option for the OP and myself, I need some rear quarter speakers and i can more the silver flutes to the rear and the better ones in the doors.
btw, I machined aluminum adapter rings for mine and used either 8-32 or 6-32 (cant remember) screws threaded into the aluminum.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

So what if I went the opposite direction, guys? How _high_ should a substage be allowed to play, at maximum? 80hz? 100hz? 120hz? And, if doing that, would it be more prudent to, say, use a 5" or 6" mid and a tweeter, or a 6.5" mid_bass _and a smaller, say 2" wideband instead of the typical 2.5"?

Just curious. Well, I'm also worried about my sub-stage goals, but, eh. I'll cross that road once I figure out _exactly_ how much box I can squeeze in the cab under different configurations and what I'm willing to sacrifice.

Also, I saw a vid on youtube where this guy had 2 Rockford p1 15's sealed in a single cab ranger. BEHIND THE SEATS. 2 rockford 15's in a reg cab ford ranger 

Really crappy video quality, but what do you guys think of this, or hell, even using ONE of these with a port as opposed to two 10's with more power and excursion or one 12 or blah blah, whatever. Also what do you guys think in general of MBEnclosures? Dude seems really knowledgable and experienced, but definitely seems a little unorthodox with his large port area and large enclosures usually all tuned to the same 33hz-35hz for rap with some multi-genre ability retained.

I really want that "all-genre" ability in terms of transients and response and low distortion/breakup, but I also want my sub-stage to dig low and loud/rising for the 1/2 to 2/3 of my listening that will be basically anything on "bass nation" and "trap nation" on youtube.


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

well buddy , i see a lot of great info + ideas for you that the others passed along - to keep it simple - easy, would work on any setup - using the deck or amp's - that will sound amazing - on the cheapest way you can go (within reason) can always upgrade until your satisfied - .. I would keep it stupid simple,,, iv had a few F-rangers, it has a 5x7/6x8 stock (the same size - same mount- 2 names 5x7 or 6x8) .. you said you're going with a 6.5 - so an adaptor is highly suggested - and a speaker ring (go to home depo and get window gasket tape 1inch to DIY a speaker ring 3$ or less) ..

2. the cross-over, go active - on the deck or a system cross-over (don't get some bs crossover like 2/3 way - your upgrade path will be limited) ( i suggest XV-6-V15 6 Way Active Crossover ) dsp is 300+$ not cheep
3. speakers - now people will disagree but for that truck - you are going to want a co-axal speaker /with an angled "aim-able" tweeter on it ( infinity kappa or reference - select to fit RMS wats of the amp - use references if the system is 75wat rms or lower or kappa 100wat+)comes to mine for SQ on a dime, that you can also find 6x8 <sounds better> version cheaper than the 6.5inch - (supplies and demand- 6.5s are always in demand)
B) get a ball tweeter - (I'm guessing your not going to cut one in - if you are - a super tweeter is best) a cheep tweeter I love (it vary close sounding to a Rockford P-tweeter) and it's cheap as dirt - voyz tw4500 ( Amazon.com: High Performance Piezo Tweeters for Car Audio 1.5" 400 Watts 4 ohm Super High Frequency (1 Pair): Electronics )

4. subwoofer - lol this is the big one for you - (bass head) , if you got the Xcab ranger - right now the infinity kappa 12s are 100$ (normally a 250+$ subwoofer) that will impress most people.... if your going slim tuck-box - (Rockford p3 slims) lol sub 100$ you can get the Crockford R2 in the factory box <i would suggest this for rock-lovers where subs are not the most important Amazon.com: Rockford Fosgate R2 Ultra Shallow 10-Inch 4 Ohm DVC Subwoofer: Car Electronics) you can get a 10ich infinity reference 10ich slim sub 100$ as well (.5 qsf box for sealed) .. this is up to you and your budget..

setup - use the crossover to your liking (cross over the coaxial speaker with a band-pass 5k-90hz) (5khz-30khz tweeter) but im sure you will probably run the co-axial on high pass, tweeter at 4khz+ (the cross-over I suggested has dedicated lines for everything - even when you upgrade to a mid-bass or to a mid-range) (i never seen a point to get a component set if an active crossover is used - like you pay more for less - )


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

^^^👍 
I was considering mentioning the Dayton HF series because he wants the bass to dig low but @Tdog87 has given the most simple and effective advice anyone could ever ask for. Bravo 👏🏼👏🏼


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Tdog87 said:


> _snip_


Could I use the kappas in the doors with the ES02 pods on the dash for a midrange boost/separation for clarity and to raise the stage? Or are the Kappas clean enough to not need that?

Also, I feel like I'll want more bass than that. And yes, I have a regular cab ranger, but I'm used to hearing 2x12" sealed under the rear seat on 500-1000W in full-size trucks. I need at least that much bass, with better low-end extension.

Also, in general, when going with your route are you still under the assumption/would you still encourage doing a full sound deadening treatment to the vehicle, or are you thinking a more "normie" setup with just "dynamat" like most people do, in order to keep with the KISS principle and provide an "upgrade path" as you say?


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Could I use the kappas in the doors with the ES02 pods on the dash for a midrange boost/separation for clarity and to raise the stage? Or are the Kappas clean enough to not need that?
> 
> Also, I feel like I'll want more bass than that. And yes, I have a regular cab ranger, but I'm used to hearing 2x12" sealed under the rear seat on 500-1000W in full-size trucks. I need at least that much bass, with better low-end extension.
> 
> Also, in general, when going with your route are you still under the assumption/would you still encourage doing a full sound deadening treatment to the vehicle, or are you thinking a more "normie" setup with just "dynamat" like most people do, in order to keep with the KISS principle and provide an "upgrade path" as you say?


im overthinking it - the tweeters should be placed at dash-board lev -- to make the sound stage go up or down its as simple as tweaking the cross-over (to move up lower the low-pass on the woofer <door speaker> to go up change the tweeter cross-over <change from 3khz to 5khz > - its impossible for anyone to tell you what to do - unless we had the identical system in the same truck ... but it hella sounds like your going too far into this - start off slowly - upgrade as you see fit - ,, if you just try to BAM monster system in 1 shot- it won't be easy, and you won't learn how all the tunning works... yes sound deading works, but its $$ . i don't use any - some DIY speaker rings .. i put some flex tape over any factory holes to stop the back wave ... the cross-over (the one i suggested is analog with nobs - it will blow your mine how sound can be changed by tunning a simple nob - far more powerful than a built-in cross-over on an amp ... and 80hz is not the best place to cross over - i think ... and the fun of making a system is to re-do it next weekend with new parts - if you dont want to tinker with it - take it to the shop ...


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Tdog87 said:


> im overthinking it - the tweeters should be placed at dash-board lev -- to make the sound stage go up or down its as simple as tweaking the cross-over (to move up lower the low-pass on the woofer <door speaker> to go up change the tweeter cross-over <change from 3khz to 5khz > - its impossible for anyone to tell you what to do - unless we had the identical system in the same truck ... but it hella sounds like your going too far into this - start off slowly - upgrade as you see fit - ,, if you just try to BAM monster system in 1 shot- it won't be easy, and you won't learn how all the tunning works... yes sound deading works, but its $$ . i don't use any - some DIY speaker rings .. i put some flex tape over any factory holes to stop the back wave ... the cross-over (the one i suggested is analog with nobs - it will blow your mine how sound can be changed by tunning a simple nob - far more powerful than a built-in cross-over on an amp ... and 80hz is not the best place to cross over - i think ... and the fun of making a system is to re-do it next weekend with new parts - if you dont want to tinker with it - take it to the shop ...


YOU'RE overthinking it? Well if that's the case then I must be beating it to death!

Anyway... Yeah, I get what you're saying. Start closer to what I'm comfortable with (just doors and a head unit), do a couple of new things (dynamat, amps, subs, crossover), and then escalate gradually in the future (full deadening, DSP, etc) all so I don't get ahead of myself and give up.

And I fully get that. Because I _do_ tend to get ahead of myself and at least temporarily give up. Going from doors and head-units to full deadening, glassed pillar pods, DSPs, modded doors and custom sub enclosures is a big jump when I've never even run an amp kit before.

I... I just wanted to do something big so I could impress my brother. He won't hear a damn thing I have to say about car audio because he's been "doing it" for 30 years while I've only done research and have "book smarts" about it. Even though he doesn't do anything close to an SQ build, doesn't like how time alignment sounds, and doesn't believe in DSPs. It's like talking to a neanderthal, but I figured if I could take _all_ of my knowledge and apply it _and succeed_ I could make him eat his words and take me seriously.

Then again, that's really arrogant and prideful sounding, so IDK. Not to mention how everybody in the end is going to do what they do, especially if they're set in their ways. And the older one gets, the more set they become. For reference, my brother is 47 and I'm 23, so... IDK.

I think I'm gonna make a new topic to discuss my sub-stage. ALL of these Dayton subs really intrigue me. It seems like Dayton is on point almost no matter what you do. And the ultimax 8's, 10's, and reference HF 10 all look good for my application barring a blow-through of some sort. Either those or some other subs that are comparable to them. I kinda wonder how an Ultimax would do with the aluminum cone from the reference HF series. Big excursion plus stiff and hard cone = best of both worlds?


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> YOU'RE overthinking it? Well if that's the case then I must be beating it to death!
> 
> Anyway... Yeah, I get what you're saying. Start closer to what I'm comfortable with (just doors and a head unit), do a couple of new things (dynamat, amps, subs, crossover), and then escalate gradually in the future (full deadening, DSP, etc) all so I don't get ahead of myself and give up.
> 
> ...


The only problem people have with the Dayton reference series is they sound less loud than most other normie subs. This is because of the very low distortion, and while distortion always sounds like a bad word the general population likes some harmonic distortion because it either sounds warm or adds to the perceived loudness. Keep this in mind as you sound like you want as much bass as can be crammed into the allotted space. Definitely use a lot of dynamat type stuff, because I glassed over my inner doors I had 3 layers over the holes.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Oh and you choose crossover points based on the nulls of the measured response. Even just a iPhone app will point out the major nulls. You cross where it’s relatively smooth response. 👍


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> _snip_
> ...Keep this in mind as you sound like you want as much bass as can be crammed into the allotted space. Definitely use a lot of dynamat type stuff, because I glassed over my inner doors I had 3 layers over the holes.


3 Layers of CLD before the fiberglass or 3 layers of coverings incl the fiberglass (so double thickness CLD)?

Also, yes, I definitely want to cram bass into that reg cab ranger without doing a blow-through or reducing legroom. I know I can get 1.5 net with a port, which would allow TWO dayton ultimax 8's, which will F3 at 30hz with the recommended port. In fact, the reference 10 with the recommended port will F3 around 27hz in about the same size box. 

However, an ultimax 10 will F3 at 22hz in a slightly bigger box with the recommended port. If, and I mean a HUGE IF I can SOMEHOW get 3 net WITH a port big enough for two of these, And find a spot on the box where they'll actually mount I will definitely go with that. Otherwise, it's better SQ with the single reference 10 ported, much louder with the 2 Ultimax 8's ported, or deeper than either with a single Ultimax 10 ported.



420tabbycat said:


> Oh and you choose crossover points based on the nulls of the measured response. Even just a iPhone app will point out the major nulls. You cross where it’s a relatively smooth response. 👍


I know. I just wanted to know what's the highest you can cross subs before you get into some whack stuff like male vocals in the subs or being able to "locate" them as opposed to them being "ambient".

Also, I have an android, but I assume there's a similar app for that. Quick Q, would an XLR microphone setup on a computer make a good RTA thingy for tuning? Because my $5 mic is about dead and I've been considering an upgrade lately, anyway.


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

I know you like research, binge watch this channel
For awhile. It’s gonna answer a lot of questions and show you some stuff 



https://youtube.com/channel/UCKJUj746WOIUNjv5imYs6yA


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

3 layers of the dynamat, fiberglass on top if you’re going for the gold. 200hz is where you can localize the subwoofer. In practice the xover needs to be more like 150hz maximum and that’s with a very low distortion subwoofer and a steep slope. 120hz is probably the safe bet with any normal subwoofer.


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## scooterfrog (Aug 28, 2019)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> 3 way would be your best bet if you want "loud and clear" sort of system. The couple of systems I've heard with a MB and wideband did sound good, but I felt like they were missing some of the ambience that a tweeter could provide. Beyond that, if you got out of the sweet spot by a couple inches, you lost a good bit of the high end information. So it had the head in a vise sort of feel.
> If you do want a KISS system and don't mind some of those issues, than a 2 way with a wideband can work well. But keep in mind that a 3in wideband will be WAY into beaming at +10k, so aiming them is going to be crucial if you want to use them from 300-20k.


this. i think a wide band needs to be up in the pillars or top of the dash because of beaming / lack of dispersion at the top. if you are not cutting that might be hard. a tweent in the pillar is easy


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

scooterfrog said:


> this. i think a wide band needs to be up in the pillars or top of the dash because of beaming / lack of dispersion at the top. if you are not cutting that might be hard. a tweent in the pillar is easy


Thread's pretty big at this point, so I understand, but I did say towards the beginning that I'm willing to try making pillar enclosures for the wideband. Otherwise, the ES02's seem pretty good as a "plug and play" option.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> 3 layers of the dynamat, fiberglass on top if you’re going for the gold. 200hz is where you can localize the subwoofer. In practice the xover needs to be more like 150hz maximum and that’s with a very low distortion subwoofer and a steep slope. 120hz is probably the safe bet with any normal subwoofer.


So then 80 is definitely no problem, and that's about as far as any given midbass or midrange _needs_ to play. Then again, everything's a give and take, so a sub playing up that high might not handle 30 as well.

And yes, to whoever suggested it. I've binged PSSound before. Saw his IB vids, and then his whole SQ series. It gave me a migraine and pushed me towards the "simple" side of things, as opposed to the 3-way front stage and 2-way substage that I've seen in some of his builds and 4-6 way front stage and 2-way sub-stage I've seen in one build.

Not to mention center channel and differential rear fill... I've tallied it up, if someone were to go as all out as possible, they'd need like 21 channels total overall for a complete active system. To break it down, that's a 5-way front stage, 3-way center channel, 3-way rear stage for differential rear fill, and a 2-way sub-stage. Imagine building, wiring, powering, mounting, and tuning all of THAT crap. HELL TO THE NO for me. Talk about diminishing returns, eh?


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

J


Drunken Hamster said:


> So then 80 is definitely no problem, and that's about as far as any given midbass or midrange _needs_ to play. Then again, everything's a give and take, so a sub playing up that high might not handle 30 as well.
> 
> And yes, to whoever suggested it. I've binged PSSound before. Saw his IB vids, and then his whole SQ series. It gave me a migraine and pushed me towards the "simple" side of things, as opposed to the 3-way front stage and 2-way substage that I've seen in some of his builds and 4-6 way front stage and 2-way sub-stage I've seen in one build.
> 
> Not to mention center channel and differential rear fill... I've tallied it up, if someone were to go as all out as possible, they'd need like 21 channels total overall for a complete active system. To break it down, that's a 5-way front stage, 3-way center channel, 3-way rear stage for differential rear fill, and a 2-way sub-stage. Imagine building, wiring, powering, mounting, and tuning all of THAT crap. HELL TO THE NO for me. Talk about diminishing returns, eh?


u remember the crossover points are based on phase behavior as well. You may have a midbass null somewhere around 80hz and a120hz lowpass on the subwoofer would be appropriate, it’s good to have drivers that can reach a little further than you might think you need. Glad you’re getting the information you need 👍


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

There’s no way you need 21 channels for a proper system. I’m running an active 3 way, front sub, rear sub and differential rear fill off a 10 channel DSP. That will cover literally everything before you get into crazy territory that’s not reasonable. For a small truck cab, the rear fill isn’t even that important. And a center channel is just extra stuff that’s not really needed and I don’t think I’ve seen PSSOUND recommend running them or tuning them either. 

Simple, run a wide band and a midbass. Run whatever sub you want for whatever bass level you need. If you want to make an actual large improvement over that, get a basic DSP. The next step would be a basic digital source into the DSP. You want to go even more, add a tweeter later when you have the money for a full 3 way. A basic 8 channel DSP will give you way more bang for your buck then any other speaker combo


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> J
> 
> u remember the crossover points are based on phase behavior as well. You may have a midbass null somewhere around 80hz and a120hz lowpass on the subwoofer would be appropriate, it’s good to have drivers that can reach a little further than you might think you need. Glad you’re getting the information you need 👍


I'll be honest, I'm not 100 on how phase behavior works. I'm sure it'll likely be system-specific. And I know going ported on the sub will likely affect it and might have issues with something called group delay, but IDRC. An 8" SLS plays down to 50, so if I have to just turn off the sub for true SQ bass and music, then I will, and I'll only use the sub when it's vibe time, lol.

Oh, wait, wouldn't time alignment work to correct or nullify phase issues? Like, I know you have to check phase initially, but I'm not understanding how it would change in relation to the midbass as frequency changes. I mean, a hz are hz, right? As long as the speakers are time-aligned and in the correct phase to begin with, they should be in phase the whole way, right?


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

He’s talking about nulls in the vehicle and phase cancellations. Like near side mid bass nulls between 80-120htz, car dependent off course


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

chrisp2493 said:


> There’s no way you need 21 channels for a proper system.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Snip
> ...


I know, 21 channels was just a theoretical max that I thought of being as crazy as I am.

Yep, WB and MB are the plan. Though I was already planning a DSP, too. Just, like, a 5 channel one or something. And I already was thinking of a head unit that did digital optical out to go to said DSP.

Honestly, why don't they make head units that can do per channel parametric EQ and per-channel full range custom crossovers? Just have the friggen DSPs built into the head units, dang... I mean, my brother's $200 double din does time alignment and has HPF for the mains and LPF for the sub. Can't be much harder to add a little more functionality...


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I’ll mention one more thing, the first widebanders I used were the cdt es02 pods and that was one of the big eureka moments. It was the first time I ever experienced a soundstage in the dash. They had to be filtered to play above 7-800 hz but that was all it took for the band to be in front of my face, seriously made me begin to pursue the SQ hobby. With a normal tweeter and the midbass beaming above whatever a 6.5 beams at my whole life I never even knew about a soundstage.

The second biggest event in my SQ journey was deadening my doors. It’s way more than the bass, the whole midrange gets muffled and colored with out a good deadening job. I know you wil be crossing the midbass low but I wanted to point out the importance of acoustic treatment. 

I’m in the mindset that the midbass is less important because of our difficulties hearing distortion so if you go with a fullrange please spend the money there. The midrange is easily the most important band to get perfect.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Perfect 2-way system - CDT CL-69SubCF (6x9 midbass) and CDT Unity 8.0 (2" wideband). I run this set in my 2018 Challenger and love it. Everyone I know that has tried these speakers love them.

Right now you can get the 6x9's for $109/pair and the "refurbished" Unity 8.0 (really brand new - maybe with a scratch on the magnet or bezel - which doesn't matter if going under a factory grille anyway) - for $129/pair. The last few people I know that purchased these said that there was not a single scratch or blemish on them).


So for ~$250 you have all of the speakers that you need (assuming your vehicle has 6x9's currently - I didn't read the whole thread). The 6x9's will play down to 40hz if you want - and the 2" wideband has a spec of up to 33khz! You'll never miss the tweeter. 

Just another option.


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

Hmm maybe I’ll grab a set of those CDT wide bands for my rear fill. Seems like a good price


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Troski was the member I mentioned who loved some CDT.
@jtrosky didn't you put in a stealth box last year or was that someone else?


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

jtrosky said:


> Perfect 2-way system - CDT CL-69SubCF (6x9 midbass) and CDT Unity 8.0 (2" wideband). I run this set in my 2018 Challenger and love it. Everyone I know that has tried these speakers love them.
> 
> Right now you can get the 6x9's for $109/pair and the "refurbished" Unity 8.0 (really brand new - maybe with a scratch on the magnet or bezel - which doesn't matter if going under a factory grille anyway) - for $129/pair. The last few people I know that purchased these said that there was not a single scratch or blemish on them).
> 
> ...


The only thing I don't like about _any _of the CDT's is their relatively low sensitivity. And the truck fits a 5x7/6x8 stock. Pretty sure I'd have to mod for a 6x9, and at that point I'll want to put an 8" round in there.

Also, I can't find response graphs for really anything of the list of stuff I'm considering. Nr1 is the CDT ES02 in their little pre-made pods, from listening position. Ideally with some Peerless SLS 6.5 or 8 in doors from listening position. I'm... Just too skeptical about what kinds of volume a 2" speaker can produce in the mid-range, as opposed to a 3" speaker in the upper range, especially since many are saying I can upgrade with a real tweeter in the future.

Like, if the 2" can't keep up with the 8" SLS, I'll have to get the 6.5, then I'll have to run the sub higher because the 6.5" SLS doesn't run as low as the 8. But, I'm really about tired of thinking. If the CDT ES02 in it's surface mount pod keeps up with a peerless SLS 8 on a graph I'm just gonna go with that. And likely the kicker key amp for tuning, though I'll research it's software more first before setting that in stone.

Pretty sure you guys have told me like 12 times now that a 2" wideband will keep up with an 8" or 6x9 midbass at the correct crossover range (200-400hz) on the same power, while simultaneously playing better (especially off-axis) in the tweeter range than larger 2.5" wideband and 3" full-range (incl metal cone ones), right?


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> The only thing I don't like about _any _of the CDT's is their relatively low sensitivity. And the truck fits a 5x7/6x8 stock. Pretty sure I'd have to mod for a 6x9, and at that point I'll want to put an 8" round in there.
> 
> Also, I can't find response graphs for really anything of the list of stuff I'm considering. Nr1 is the CDT ES02 in their little pre-made pods, from listening position. Ideally with some Peerless SLS 6.5 or 8 in doors from listening position. I'm... Just too skeptical about what kinds of volume a 2" speaker can produce in the mid-range, as opposed to a 3" speaker in the upper range, especially since many are saying I can upgrade with a real tweeter in the future.
> 
> ...


2” might need to be crossed more like 5-600hz depending on the specs, the frogs somehow can play 200hz as a 2.5”. It depends man, how loud you think you need to go? Let’s be realistic. Just because the 8” can play at “10” and the wideband at “8”, “8” will be plenty loud. Get a good clean 50-100 watts per channel and it will be loud enough to damage your hearing by the time your my age lol.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> 2” might need to be crossed more like 5-600hz depending on the specs, the frogs somehow can play 200hz as a 2.5”. It depends man, how loud you think you need to go? Let’s be realistic. Just because the 8” can play at “10” and the wideband at “8”, “8” will be plenty loud. Get a good clean 50-100 watts per channel and it will be loud enough to damage your hearing by the time your my age lol.


Yeah, if that's the relative perceived loudness, it should be fine. It's if the wideband could only pull a 6 or less (or even a 7 if I wanna be really picky) compared to the SLS 8's "10" rating that I'd consider it inadequate.

And yeah, 50W RMS, at least with 93.5db sensitivity in my brother's truck is "turn it down" loud at about half the volume his head unit will do after just a couple songs.

So if that's what I'm working with, then it almost seems painfully clear that I should do the SLS 8 or a 6x9 midbass, ES02 wideband prefab pod surface mounted, and at least _start_ with the Kicker Key amp set. If that doesn't pan out, upgrade starting with the amp and DSP.

EDIT: What you said about 500-600hz is why I want to see a response graph of them. Because AFAIR, the SLS 8's start to fall at 400 or something like that.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

With the CDT Unity 8's, I prefer to cross them at 500hz acoustically. I just don't feel that a 2" (or even 3") speaker can handle below 500hz as well as a bigger speaker can. I've worked with some others that use a 400hz acoustic xover with the Unity as well (i have a phase-induced dip at 400hz, so I prefer not to cross there). The Unity 8's easily keep up with the rest of my system. In fact, I have to turn them down. My midbass is actually the limiter (since I only have 100W RMS for the midbass).

And yes - I did install a JL Stealthbox somewhat recently. I also still use my 8" underseat amplified sub. I let the Stealtbox handle up to 55hz, the underseat sub handle 55hz-80hz and let my 6x9's take over from there (up to 500hz) - widebands handle 500hz+.

The underseat sub helps keep the bass "up front" sounding - and also take a load off of the 6x9 door speakers (even though they can go much lower than 80hz). However, to get a good solid 80hz acoustic xvover with the amount of midbass that I like, I think the electrical xover of the 6x9's is in the 50hz's....

I do have CDT-published on- and off-axis frequency response diagrams for the Unity 8's if interested...

Here you go. Here is a Unity 8 spec sheet:

Unity8.0 driver tech specs 2020.pdf

here are the response graphs:


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Yeah, if that's the relative perceived loudness, it should be fine. It's if the wideband could only pull a 6 or less (or even a 7 if I wanna be really picky) compared to the SLS 8's "10" rating that I'd consider it inadequate.
> 
> And yeah, 50W RMS, at least with 93.5db sensitivity in my brother's truck is "turn it down" loud at about half the volume his head unit will do after just a couple songs.
> 
> ...


The sls 8 is only necessary if you need it to play really low. The truth of the matter is a 6.5 or 6x8 is all you would ever need with subwoofers. The other thing is that you will have major door rattling playing so low with high power, outside of excessive deadening work that isn’t necessary, if you use good sense and try to understand the psychoacoustics at play. The reason I glassed my inner doors was to smooth out some nulls in the response, I have no desire to get any real bass from the doors. Putting the sls8 idea on the shelf allows you to choose a door speaker that can play higher cleaner with more sensitivity. I use the Dayton rs180-4 and sometimes it’s a little weak but I’m still working on the nulls in the car. Don’t let the novelty of a low playing midbass driver cloud your vision of a sq build.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

^^Agreed. While I could play my 6x9 door speakers lower, there really is no need to subject the doors to all of those vibrations - especially since I have two separate subs that are designed for that purpose.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I hope someone will attest to what I’m saying about needlessly fighting to cram a 8” in your doors. Here’s a thread I started when I was still thinking like you 👍

*








Humor me, Dayton HF 8” Free air in my front doors.


Most of the forum regulars are probably aware of my big “fiberglass baffle on my front door” boner currently. I’m generally under the impression that the midbass drivers don’t really need to go below ~80hz. Recently a member wrote about his midbasses playing really low ported and achieving a...




www.diymobileaudio.com




*


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm just now realizing that the Unity 8.0 is NOT the ES02... Despite both being 2" widebands... Uhh, the U8's don't seem to come in their own little pods, though, like the ES02's do. At least not on CDT's website.

Also, Tabby... Wasn't it you who said I _should_ cut my inner skins a bit to fit the magnets of and therefore bigger speakers in general, otherwise I'd be really limited on speaker choice?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

You can order the Unity 8's with or without pods. I ordered mine brand new with pods (before they offered the "refurbished" versions). If you contact CDT support, they will sell you a set of pods as well. 

I actually ended up installing mine in my dash _with_ the pods attached - so they are behind the factory grilles and invisible, but completely "sealed" in the pods. They reflect off of the windshield and sound like they are on-axis. Works out wonderfully.

You will not find a better wideband at twice the price!


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Drunken Hamster said:


> I'm just now realizing that the Unity 8.0 is NOT the ES02... Despite both being 2" widebands... Uhh, the U8's don't seem to come in their own little pods, though, like the ES02's do. At least not on CDT's website.
> 
> Also, Tabby... Wasn't it you who said I _should_ cut my inner skins a bit to fit the magnets of and therefore bigger speakers in general, otherwise I'd be really limited on speaker choice?


Doubt I said that


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

420tabbycat said:


> Doubt I said that


You're right, it was @thomasluke789


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Tdog87 said:


> well buddy , i see a lot of great info + ideas for you that the others passed along - to keep it simple - easy, would work on any setup - using the deck or amp's - that will sound amazing - on the cheapest way you can go (within reason) can always upgrade until your satisfied - .. I would keep it stupid simple,,, iv had a few F-rangers, it has a 5x7/6x8 stock (the same size - same mount- 2 names 5x7 or 6x8) .. you said you're going with a 6.5 - so an adaptor is highly suggested - and a speaker ring (go to home depo and get window gasket tape 1inch to DIY a speaker ring 3$ or less) ..
> 
> 2. the cross-over, go active - on the deck or a system cross-over (don't get some bs crossover like 2/3 way - your upgrade path will be limited) ( i suggest XV-6-V15 6 Way Active Crossover ) dsp is 300+$ not cheep
> 3. speakers - now people will disagree but for that truck - you are going to want a co-axal speaker /with an angled "aim-able" tweeter on it ( infinity kappa or reference - select to fit RMS wats of the amp - use references if the system is 75wat rms or lower or kappa 100wat+)comes to mine for SQ on a dime, that you can also find 6x8 <sounds better> version cheaper than the 6.5inch - (supplies and demand- 6.5s are always in demand)
> ...


I agree with a lot of this ^^
But where we are going to differ is how important a DSP is. An active crossover is better than passive for sure, but if you want a great system with less expensive drivers then a DSP will make it from an okay system to a great system.
Individual EQ per driver is one of the biggest things that is going to make a difference by going with a dsp. Global EQ just isn't enough to get a great sounding, simple, system. If you spend hours aiming and cut to place drivers in optimal positioning, you can get just as good of a system, but it's just a lot more work and still not the same.
Plus you really need individual driver TA which you aren't going to have on a HU alone, unless you go with a very expensive one. So you may as well just get a dsp with more eq bands per driver and individual TA if you are going to have to spend the money either way. And you will have the choice of a bunch of different crossover types as well as a bunch of slopes as well.
Needless to say, I would say a DSP is one of the most important parts in a modern system that I wouldn't ever go without if I wanted an outstanding system. Expecially with widebands, as they typically need quite a bit of eq to be linear (a rising curve on the high end and getting rid of the L/R peaks and valleys that will pull the stage all over the place if they are not the same on both sides)


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## Tdog87 (Apr 3, 2021)

well i have some input - , a cross-over is more than (were the speaker distorts) you can use it to change the sound stage - and - if your system was large like mine - use it to change the whole system around (some times i change my front speakers to cross-over around 250hz then use my rear speakers - as the mid-bass - making my system a 4way setup - i can do this because i run co-axles - not componets - just saying) (i have a 14 speaker system in a dodge Dakota slt (1994) 4 coaxial 2 midranges 6 tweeters +2 subs (10ich and 12ich -that sit in the middle of back seat /floor - leaving my truck 2 seats in the back (i have 5 open seats ) i run a Microsoft surface pro (tesla styal dash-board) as my head-unit /dsp (a computer is a dsp) on a 7.1 usb-sound blaster )(thire is no car-deck or dsp that can rival or compair to that setup - and its cheeper than the dsp alone.. but takes a computer savy person to program & use ) i dont trun on my center speaker offten so i did not include it on my list (its a JBL) ) 
i run 4 amps to power every channel .. its probably one of the most bad-ass 1st gen Dakotas ever (it is new to me - I got it 6mo ago and it has under 100k miles (1994 Dakota slt 5.2L 4x4 5speed - 8ft bed ) 
its a sleeper - you would never know it can blow your eardrums out by looking at it- ... the cross-over I have sat behind the shifter/transaxle shifter - so i can tune my cross-overs at will - while driving (its great - to have that freedom - <when i used my DSP - it was a phone app > ) in the deck's location it has a 1/2 DIMM equalizer that does front/rear/sub (for 2ch operations if i don't want to pull it up on screen lol = it has Dolby atmos ) this system is more than sufficient for me - .,....... lol but ... but - I just got a new amp today (6ch 4000w ) so it will sound different - another project ...  ..

(my head-unit < microsoft surface pro 2 > many reasons to use an ms surface pro-2,
1. it's 12v (most computers are 20v) and it can charge/wire directly to your car/truck no inverter bs. <14v safe>
2. it can dual boot in (windows, Linux, android, hack-in-taush) 
3. it hase an HQ sound-card bult in for 2ch output (sounds better than any deck's rca out). I used the "pro 2" because the "pro3" was too big and I like the 6x9 aspect to fit the dash and <on E-bay 100$> -
4. magnet mount /Bluetooth for kids to use in their laps to watch movies / do homework).
5 it is 100x more powerful than the top-of-the-line DSP (500+ band EQ or like time alinement x14 <or the number of out-puts on your USB sound card(s)... the plugins are endless options Windows10 use (apo equalizer) Equalizer APO <Linux i use ( pluseEffects ) on android - well android sucks - has no DSP software - and no drivers for sound-cards)
6. it has all the supper functions of modern computers for auto eq / autotune / auto time-alignment (good mic built right-into it,) connect it to your phone<use it as a phone - or " wifi calling "also >

You're young, but i bet you know your way around a computer better than i do


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Drunken Hamster said:


> I like the sensitivity and power handling on that. As well as the frequency response. Looks like it's flat out to 500hz, which is kinda perfect from what I understand. The 2" port that's 6" long is tempting, NGL. I bet the door would constitute 0.4 cubic feet, at least. (But then again I don't really want to worry about a "subsonic filter" on my midbass woofers.)
> 
> It's even dirt cheap. I just wish it were an 8"
> 
> Edit: They also have an 8.


Man I like mine so much, I ordered another set. They sound unbelievable and blow my punch (not the cheap ones either) separates out the water. NO comparison. When they break in...omg do they sound good. They are very loud and clear and have really really good mid bass. I never had a decent front sound stage till now. The other set is going in the rear 1/4 panels. My car has (6) 6.5 from the factory.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> The cones are made of untreated wool and while they are cheap and do work for a little more coin you can find a much better driver for a car door.
> The basket on them seems to be kinda brittle too. I've cracked 2 of them. Drilling slowly. The stock screw holes are super tiny. It's hard to find rivnuts that small.
> And drywall or self tapper most definitely will not fit.
> But they are pretty ok.


I thought the basket felt pretty beefy. You can alway drill holes a little bigger. I plan on it with my next set and I’m going to counter sink the holes.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

Tdog87 said:


> well i have some input - , a cross-over is more than (were the speaker distorts) you can use it to change the sound stage - and - if your system was large like mine - use it to change the whole system around (some times i change my front speakers to cross-over around 250hz then use my rear speakers - as the mid-bass - making my system a 4way setup - i can do this because i run co-axles - not componets - just saying) (i have a 14 speaker system in a dodge Dakota slt (1994) 4 coaxial 2 midranges 6 tweeters +2 subs (10ich and 12ich -that sit in the middle of back seat /floor - leaving my truck 2 seats in the back (i have 5 open seats ) i run a Microsoft surface pro (tesla styal dash-board) as my head-unit /dsp (a computer is a dsp) on a 7.1 usb-sound blaster )(thire is no car-deck or dsp that can rival or compair to that setup - and its cheeper than the dsp alone.. but takes a computer savy person to program & use ) i dont trun on my center speaker offten so i did not include it on my list (its a JBL) )
> i run 4 amps to power every channel .. its probably one of the most bad-ass 1st gen Dakotas ever (it is new to me - I got it 6mo ago and it has under 100k miles (1994 Dakota slt 5.2L 4x4 5speed - 8ft bed )
> its a sleeper - you would never know it can blow your eardrums out by looking at it- ... the cross-over I have sat behind the shifter/transaxle shifter - so i can tune my cross-overs at will - while driving (its great - to have that freedom - <when i used my DSP - it was a phone app > ) in the deck's location it has a 1/2 DIMM equalizer that does front/rear/sub (for 2ch operations if i don't want to pull it up on screen lol = it has Dolby atmos ) this system is more than sufficient for me - .,....... lol but ... but - I just got a new amp today (6ch 4000w ) so it will sound different - another project ...  ..
> 
> ...


I'm sure I could figure it out.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Those are personally a little pricy for me. I'm very much a budget-minded and bang for buck kinda guy. What about these? Dayton Audio CX120-8 or something similar? These basically look like C3CX for dirt cheap.
> 
> As far as the midbass, I've heard great things about the Peerless SLS and was, as such, considering those. Assuming I do a good deadening job and can make the doors as close to an anechoic chamber as possible, how would you convince me to move from a ~$100 woofer to a $450 woofer?
> 
> Edit: Also, I edited my last post.


Not a suggestion, just something for you to look at and see if it could work for you.





Anarchy 7 inch woofer by Denovo Audio


7 inch Anarchy woofer, Anarchy, Denovo Audio, small subwoofer, 12.5mm X-max, powerful woofer




www.diysoundgroup.com


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> Not a suggestion, just something for you to look at and see if it could work for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmmmmmmmmm...


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Drunken Hamster said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmm...


You really should read these reviews......



https://www.amazon.com/Silver-Flute-W17RC38-04-Wool-Woofer/product-reviews/B00U9TWWJY


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> You really should read these reviews......
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Silver-Flute-W17RC38-04-Wool-Woofer/product-reviews/B00U9TWWJY


Keep in mind that most of those reviews are from people coming from pro audio drivers or busted factory speakers. 
One guy mentioned a set re audio. Those haven't been made in like 13 years. 
So if you take that into consideration you could say that any woofer given the circumstances that the people are coming from would most likely get the same reviews. 
I've used the silver flutes and they are pretty good for the price.
But the cone is made of an untreated wood blend as well. Water will really soak in to it you know. 
The anarchy woofers are in another league.


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

Anarchy’s are good but they are really deep. I think you’ve mentioned before you don’t have much room


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Keep in mind that most of those reviews are from people coming from pro audio drivers or busted factory speakers.
> One guy mentioned a set re audio. Those haven't been made in like 13 years.
> So if you take that into consideration you could say that any woofer given the circumstances that the people are coming from would most likely get the same reviews.
> I've used the silver flutes and they are pretty good for the price.
> ...


I understand, but really for the money....or even close....what else is there? I’ve tried numerous door speakers and one set I had wasn’t exactly budget....none of them came close to the clarity, bass and sheer volume with lack of distortion that the silverflutes have. Not even close. I’m not pro audiophile, but I do know my way around audio. I used to install professionally for a few shops around town. I had several certifications and I’ve installed many many systems and while yes that was years ago....nothing I’ve heard are as impressive as these things. Sure, there might be better out there....but at what cost? Is the little bit of difference worth the cost? I’d be interested in what else out there could beat these....play 50hz to 6000hz with clarity, slam hard enough where they sound good enough with the subs turned off and even sound good with the rears cut off. Are these the best speakers ever? No. For the money...probably. $65 a pair is a deal for these. And they sound like they cost much more than that. But like I said...I’d be interested in trying other things.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

chrisp2493 said:


> Anarchy’s are good but they are really deep. I think you’ve mentioned before you don’t have much room


Dang those are deep.
Here’s a silverflute.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

And a tang band w6










Tang band vs silverflute


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

chrisp2493 said:


> Anarchy’s are good but they are really deep. I think you’ve mentioned before you don’t have much room


Hey could you measure the overall diameter and the depth? I was thinking about using those in my rear deck.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I understand, but really for the money....or even close....what else is there? I’ve tried numerous door speakers and one set I had wasn’t exactly budget....none of them came close to the clarity, bass and sheer volume with lack of distortion that the silverflutes have. Not even close. I’m not pro audiophile, but I do know my way around audio. I used to install professionally for a few shops around town. I had several certifications and I’ve installed many many systems and while yes that was years ago....nothing I’ve heard are as impressive as these things. Sure, there might be better out there....but at what cost? Is the little bit of difference worth the cost? I’d be interested in what else out there could beat these....play 50hz to 6000hz with clarity, slam hard enough where they sound good enough with the subs turned off and even sound good with the rears cut off. Are these the best speakers ever? No. For the money...probably. $65 a pair is a deal for these. And they sound like they cost much more than that. But like I said...I’d be interested in trying other things.


Cool cool....they are great drivers. I'm running them in my work truck right now.
They will do everything. But nothing is really like damn good you know?
If you were too grab a Dayton rs-180p you would have a driver better suited to the door and it also plays the midrange a little better. It's just better overall for like 10 bucks more a piece or so. But the silver flutes are very nice.


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## KFXGUY (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> Cool cool....they are great drivers. I'm running them in my work truck right now.
> They will do everything. But nothing is really like damn good you know?
> If you were too grab a Dayton rs-180p you would have a driver better suited to the door and it also plays the midrange a little better. It's just better overall for like 10 bucks more a piece or so. But the silver flutes are very nice.


I’m gonna check those out. Won’t hurt for me to try em.


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

My 87 GN, ID HLCDs and Focal Neo 6.5's in the doors. 😁


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

KFXGUY said:


> I’m gonna check those out. Won’t hurt for me to try em.


They are the paper cone version of the rs drivers that used to be thrown around on here back in the day. 
The aluminum cone version have horrible break up around 2 or 2.5k I think. So you will not be able to run those like the flutes at all.


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## Drunken Hamster (Mar 8, 2018)

GlockandRoll said:


> My 87 GN, ID HLCDs and Focal Neo 6.5's in the doors. 😁
> View attachment 305913
> View attachment 305911
> View attachment 305912
> ...


What's in those funky horn enclosures?


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

metanium said:


> I greatly prefer a mid-bass & wideband, if doing 2-way.


Any wideband you suggest?


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

dcfis said:


> Any wideband you suggest?


this is what im going with this time. im using the Audiofrog GS25 in mine


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

on topic. You can fit a 6.5 in the oem door location without issue. I've done it. I had created enough room just with the adapter I made to go from oval to round. I ran an Audison comp set active in my ranger, tweeter was surface mounted on the dash at the a-pillar/windshield junction. The nice thing about the ranger is the door speaker is really high up in the door. Your biggest problem is going to be the sub stage, depending on how tall you are.


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

street.terror said:


> this is what im going with this time. im using the Audiofrog GS25 in mine


I could have survived without a tweeter running my GS25s but I got a sparkly tweeter for the shimmer. The audible physics ram2 and epique 7” would be my go to for a banging 2 way after reading up on them. I’m still really tempted to try the ram2s just because they seem awesome.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

420tabbycat said:


> I could have survived without a tweeter running my GS25s but I got a sparkly tweeter for the shimmer. The audible physics ram2 and epique 7” would be my go to for a banging 2 way after reading up on them. I’m still really tempted to try the ram2s just because they seem awesome.


Price was a factor for me. I'm fortunate in that my ears dislike sparkle up high. That combined the fact i just listen to poorly record punk rock all the time means i wont miss that very top end ha


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

Budget sq 2 way would probably be a peerless or fatal 2-3” wideband and Dayton rs180 or SB midbass


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

street.terror said:


> That combined the fact i just listen to poorly record punk rock all the time means i wont miss that very top end


I could easily get by with a much more modest setup for everyday listening. It’s the stereo illusion that intrigues me and seems to call for more precise drivers and install.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Drunken Hamster said:


> What's in those funky horn enclosures?


That would be his Image Dynamics horns.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

dcfis said:


> Any wideband you suggest?


Mercury Maerstro line 2,5" works really good, great top end


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

i'm looking at going with...

Morel Virtus 6.5" + MT120 tweeter

or

Dayton RS180P-4 + Tectonic TEBM46C20N-4B

or

Dayton RS180P-4 + RS75-4

...one of those pairs mounted in my lower door to maintain balance between the left and right.

I too don't want to spend the $$$ for a true 3-way, but also want to try to eliminate or at least minimize dispersion holes in the FR between the 6.5" lower door driver and whatever I use for the actual mid-high range.

HU: Kenwood DMX906S
DSP = Helix Mini
Amp = Kenwood X801-5
Sub: Sundown SD-4 12"

I'm also over 40 and my 15Khz and up FR hearing is nearly nil at this point =\


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## 420tabbycat (Dec 23, 2013)

I have no experience with these tweeters but they seem to be highly regarded amongst the members, they seem like they can be highpassed low enough to keep the stage high. I’m humbly suggesting them onto spark further discussion.









Home


Dayton Audio RST28F-4 1-1/8" Reference Series Fabric Dome Tweeter 4 OhmThe Dayton Audio RST28F-4 silk dome Reference Series tweeter offers exceptional efficiency from 1,400 Hz to 20,000 Hz with an extremely natural and dynamic sound. This unique 1-1/8" silk dome and a state-of-the-art Ferrofluid...




www.parts-express.com













Home


Dayton Audio RST28A-4 1-1/8" Reference Series Aluminum Dome Tweeter 4 OhmThe Dayton Audio RST28A-4 aluminum dome Reference Series tweeter offers exceptional efficiency from 1,500 Hz to 20,000 Hz with smooth and well controlled frequency response. This tweeter's unique black anodized 1-1/8"...




www.parts-express.com













SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4 Neo Magnet, Ring Dome Tweeter


SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 Ring Dome Tweeter with Neodymium Magnet Spec sheet: SB29RDNC-C000-4 PDF This tweeter features a proprietary fabric ring dome with a large roll surround. Stabilizing the center of the dome greatly reduces distortion and brings the acoustic center of the tweeter back...




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





Are you going to run midbass and tweeters/widebanders in the lower doors?

I have to admit I’d love to hear more opinions on the tectronic bmr…


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## mrexcitement (Jan 23, 2019)

I can vouch for the SB29RDCN-C000-4 tweets and SB17MFC35-4 mid woofers , fantastic sounding drivers , can go very loud but remain very clean also fatigue free and reasonably cheap.
Awesome bang for buck.


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

@mrexcitement - what was your install with those drivers?


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## mrexcitement (Jan 23, 2019)

2 Way active crossed at 2khz 24db LR driven by alpine PDX-F6 150wrms x 4 , and TWK-88 DSP.

Replaced the stock 6" drivers in the doors ( added double thick birch ply spacer I made ) and mounted the tweets in the sail panels.

Very impressive system , my mate when I first gave him a demo asked whether I had fitted the sub (which I hadn't yet) , very clean sounding drivers that go loud , I had Polk MM6501 drivers before and in comparison the Polks are harsh and just sound very average.


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

@mrexcitement - thank you. what vehicle did you install these in? Did you have a bandpass on the SB mids?


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## bobgodd (May 11, 2021)

steelwindmachine said:


> @mrexcitement - thank you. what vehicle did you install these in? Did you have a bandpass on the SB mids?


I'll chime in; I'm not very exciting, but I'll be mrmildyamusingatbest. I ran this SB Acoustics SB17MFC35-4, and SB29RDNC-C000-4 combo and honestly it's as good as everyone says it is. The tweeters are the real star here, as they can play low enough to avoid beaming issues of the midbass, and still cover all the high frequencies, while never sounding harsh or strained. The midbass drivers are really nice as well. I played around with a few tunes and I could get them to sound really good up to 4k. Both are reasonably affordable from madisound. I won't say it's the "best way", but it is a good way. 

Mine were installed in stock locations of a 2004 Mercedes E class: bottom of the front doors, and tweeter in the sail panel.


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

@bobgodd - thanks for that endorsement of the SBA drivers. Any chance you know what your approx door volume is?


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## bobgodd (May 11, 2021)

steelwindmachine said:


> @bobgodd - thanks for that endorsement of the SBA drivers. Any chance you know what your approx door volume is?


Not a clue. I can tell you that they're pretty deep though, I could fit bigger drivers if needed. I've since moved on to 3-way just to see what all the fuss is about, but decided to keep the SB17MFC35-4 as they fit perfectly and sound great.


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## mrexcitement (Jan 23, 2019)

In the US it's called the Elantra touring , yes the SB17MFC35-4 are currently crossed at 80hz to 2khz LR 24db but before I fitted my subwoofers (a year later) I had them running down to 30hz 24db LR and was feeding them the full 150wrms and they were bloody impressive , very clean tight bass with some punch and I never bottomed them out.

EDIT: mrexcitement is a old nickname from when I used to go riding dirt bikes with my mates in the bush , loved being sideways , my bike was rarely going in a straight line and also I was always on a 2 stroke , most of my mates were on 4 strokes so I ended up with mrexcitement , not so exciting now as I'm 53 but the name has stuck and it's easy to remember.


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## Shadow_419 (Aug 1, 2018)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> They are the paper cone version of the rs drivers that used to be thrown around on here back in the day.
> The aluminum cone version have horrible break up around 2 or 2.5k I think. So you will not be able to run those like the flutes at all.


The breakup doesn't happen until past 4k but it definitely starts beaming around 2k. Have mine crossed at 2k and no issues besides the actual limitations of the driver (xmax/power handling)


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Steg44 said:


> but... widebands tend to be a little fragile and cant handle high spl for long listening sessions. they sound great firing up at the windshield though


Not in my experience they don’t, I’ve tuned several cars with hybrid audio U2, U3, L2se as widebands and I havent found them fragile at all


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Steg44 said:


> i heard them in an sq comp car. he turned all the speakers off except the Hybrids in the dash... cranked it and you could hear distortion. this was hybrid's top guy Davey Hay. hes the one that talked me out of going with widebands soley because im more of a SQL kind of listener. before he busted my bubble, i swore i heard a sparkly tweeter in the mix. nope, just a legadia 8 and 3" wideband


You can distort any driver, that’s down to tuning, saying widebands are all bad because of one car 🙈 widebands can get plenty loud enough for daily listening, my mate uses four widebands from 500 up in his spl car

But if your an sql guy I can see why you wouldn’t want them, multiple drivers is the way forwards for you 👍🏼


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Steg44 said:


> where did i say they sound bad? their just not optimal for loud listening sessions. i think id rather take the advice from Hybrid Audio's number 1 guy than heresay.


Well I take distortion at high levels as sounding bad. It’s likely the application he had them in was too low a crossover for the drivers to take, as I say that’s down to the tune, cross them 100hz higher and it’s very likely they’d have sounded clean and clear 👍🏼

Cross a 3” mid at 250hz and it’s fine for sq. but cross it at 400-500 and you’ll get a lot more level from it


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

I run L4SE and I havent had any issues with distortion and I listen at pretty high levels. I run them from 315 to 5k with 24dB/Oct slopes off of BRAX amp.

somehow I cant understand, why people force too low pass filter on small mids/fullranges.... competing in SQ with 85-90dB listening level is quite different as running them so low for everyday louder listening... I wouldnt go any lower than 314/400Hz with 3" drivers...probably more like 400Hz


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## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

I imagine the reason a lot of us try to run small mids at 250Hz HP is to overcome the typical issues with door mounted midbass which tend to have response issues between 315 and 420Hz. To get a linear response with those crossed at 400 or 500Hz you have to dump a bunch of eq boost into MB at that frequency range and the typical advice is to minimize or even avoid boost...


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Steg44 said:


> where did i say they sound bad? their just not optimal for loud listening sessions. i think id rather take the advice from Hybrid Audio's number 1 guy than heresay.


Well...since you got it all figured out .....


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

you still have option to get your midbass to perform in range from 250-400.
Solve the issue, not use the patch where it is not needed.


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## Nocturnal Thunder (Nov 24, 2020)

LBaudio said:


> I run L4SE and I havent had any issues with distortion and I listen at pretty high levels. I run them from 315 to 5k with 24dB/Oct slopes off of BRAX amp.
> 
> somehow I cant understand, why people force too low pass filter on small mids/fullranges.... competing in SQ with 85-90dB listening level is quite different as running them so low for everyday louder listening... I wouldnt go any lower than 314/400Hz with 3" drivers...probably more like 400Hz


I love Hybrid Audio Technologies L4SE!!! I still have those speakers because I didn't want to sell those little guys...I got attached to them. I'm not using them anymore since I'm running an SPL 2 way system with the DD Audio VO-W8b (soon to be replaced by my Beyma 8MC500NDs) and my DD Audio VO-B4 supertweeters.

I have to admit, I was really really impressed with the L4SE in that they sounded great and that I didn't blow them up, although they were not crossed over low. They were supporting the upper midrange frequency...I think from 4,000Hz to 7,000Hz if I remember correctly.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

How can you tell anything about a driver when you didn't even use it for 1 octave?


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## Nocturnal Thunder (Nov 24, 2020)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> How can you tell anything about a driver when you didn't even use it for 1 octave?


Originally it started out like that but then later on we let it open up to a way wider frequency range and that is when I found out what the little speaker could do.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Originally it started out like that but then later on we let it open up to a way wider frequency range and that is when I found out what the little speaker could do.


 Oh OK that makes sense.


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## MrHarris (Feb 3, 2011)

What you guys think of these three widebanders?











SB Acoustics SB10PGC21-4 3" Full Range


SB Acoustics SB10PGC21-4 3" Full Range




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com














Aurasound NS3-193-8A1 3" Black Cone wide range


The Original Aurasound 3" Extended Range8 ohm with Black Cone This is perhaps the best 3" wide range speaker in the world. This small speaker can go lower, and sound better doing it, than any other 3" we know of. Patented NRT magnet system. Features: Frequency 80 to 15kHz Aluminum dome...




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com














SB Acoustics SB65WBAC25-4 2.5" full range


SB Acoustics 2.5" full range speaker with 64mm square polymer chassis, aluminum cone with resonance-reducing indentations and low damping surround.




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com






Only the Aurasound and the 2.5” Sb acoustics are neodymium magnet powered. Also the 2.5” sb acoustics is over double the price of the 3” sb acoustics.

Are any of these three a good choice?


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

@MrHarris - at those prices, it might be sensible to buy and try. If there isn't already so sort of reviews or following from others who have sucessfully used them as widebands in a car, then you're going to have to make the call as opposed to going with tried and true, popular widebands like the CDT Unity series, Hybrid Audio Legacia L2SE, AudioFrog GS25 and the like.

I'm in the same boat and am probably going to pull the trigger on the CDT or Hybrid Audio units and try them in my car. If they don't work out then they can be sold off to try something else.


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## MrHarris (Feb 3, 2011)

steelwindmachine said:


> @MrHarris - at those prices, it might be sensible to buy and try. If there isn't already so sort of reviews or following from others who have sucessfully used them as widebands in a car, then you're going to have to make the call as opposed to going with tried and true, popular widebands like the CDT Unity series, Hybrid Audio Legacia L2SE, AudioFrog GS25 and the like.
> 
> I'm in the same boat and am probably going to pull the trigger on the CDT or Hybrid Audio units and try them in my car. If they don't work out then they can be sold off to try something else.


Did you ever try anything? Any results to report? 

I got the Scanspeak 5F. The output seems a little low when used with a kicker key 200.4 amp in bi-amp configuration (320hz HP on dash widebander/640hz LP on door woofer both 24db/oct).

Kind of sucks because out of the ones I previously listed, the scanspeaks were the most expensive, so feels kind of bad to try out the options that are 1/2 to 1/3 the price lol. I am wondering if a 0.5-1.0” cone size increase by going with the sb acoustics 2.5” or aurasound ns3 3” would be able to fill in the slight “hole/null” I seem to be having with the 2inch Scanspeak 5F’s (as they are crossed at 320hz 24db/oct). The aurasound ns3 seems most promising and is the cheapest in price. But it seems to start dropping output at around 80hz versus the scans and SBa which seem to drop off around 150hz.

If anyone has any useful input it would be greatly appreciated. Or if anyone has experience with these Aurasound NS3’s as dash speakers in a mobile environment. My vehicle is a Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk (newer kind, not the one from 1999). Is it correct to assume the Scanspeak 5F’s 2inch paper cone is just not sufficient enough in size/capability to be used in a 2-way in an SUV?


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

@MrHarris

I procured a pair of Unity 8 drivers, but haven't installed anything yet.

why aren't your door woofer's crossed at 320Hz?


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## MrHarris (Feb 3, 2011)

steelwindmachine said:


> @MrHarris
> 
> I procured a pair of Unity 8 drivers, but haven't installed anything yet.
> 
> why aren't your door woofer's crossed at 320Hz?



because when using a locker key 200.4 amplifier which has the auto time alignment and all that, if bi-amp mode is selected which I have selected, then it automatically determines if you have a tweeter or a widebander in the dash location and adjusts automatically to the following one of two crossover settings:

tweeter found: 3200hz hp on tweeter, 3200hz lp on woofer - 24db/Oct for both

widebander found: 320hz hp on widebander, 640hz lp on woofer — 24db/Oct for both


the tweeter/woofer combo with the crossover settings kicker auto applies resulted in somewhat separated sound due to the distances between the drivers and the tweeters were always slightly too powerful. Now with the widebander, it’s slightly not powerful enough with a seeming hole of a sound as if the widebander is unable to produce enough SPL where it’s crossed. Not sure if it’s the widebander or what. Or if I should just ditch the kicker and pay for a Helix DSP.3 and a separate 4 or 6 channel amplifier.


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

Frankly, that amp is too limited for proper use with a wide-band. A DSP is almost a must with any wide-band setup since the mainstay of them really need some tweaking to have them sound decent in a car.

So, if it were me I'd opt for either a DSP (Helix, Zapco, Mosconi or JL) with built-in amp or as you suggested, a Helix DSP.3 with out-board amps or what I am doing by using a MiniDSP 8X12DL with outboard amp. Since i'm not wanting to spend gobs of time tuning, I'm going to capitalize on the Dirac Live feature of this DSP to cut my tuning time down to a few hours by following the DIYMA created user guide from this thread.

This will give you more exacting and complete control of your sound along with future flexibility should you wish to change drivers or depending on DSP channel output capacity, go to a 3-way + sub setup down the road if so desired.


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## MrHarris (Feb 3, 2011)

steelwindmachine said:


> Frankly, that amp is too limited for proper use with a wide-band. A DSP is almost a must with any wide-band setup since the mainstay of them really need some tweaking to have them sound decent in a car.
> 
> So, if it were me I'd opt for either a DSP (Helix, Zapco, Mosconi or JL) with built-in amp or as you suggested, a Helix DSP.3 with out-board amps or what I am doing by using a MiniDSP 8X12DL with outboard amp. Since i'm not wanting to spend gobs of time tuning, I'm going to capitalize on the Dirac Live feature of this DSP to cut my tuning time down to a few hours by following the DIYMA created user guide from this thread.
> 
> This will give you more exacting and complete control of your sound along with future flexibility should you wish to change drivers or depending on DSP channel output capacity, go to a 3-way + sub setup down the road if so desired.



Dirac live have any auto tuning feature like audyssey is for home theater/audio?


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## dookie (Oct 26, 2021)

Dirac is generally regarded as the best autotune system currently. They have 2 and multi channel solutions, with single or multi-sub processing.

My theater is old enough to use Audyssey, which is OK. My car uses Helix (new, 5.0 w/autotune) which I'm very new to, but initial impressions are very good. My desk/studio is a 2.1 Dirac-tuned nearfield setup and it is _magical_.

FWIW.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

MrHarris said:


> Or if anyone has experience with these Aurasound NS3’s as dash speakers in a mobile environment. My vehicle is a Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk (newer kind, not the one from 1999). Is it correct to assume the Scanspeak 5F’s 2inch paper cone is just not sufficient enough in size/capability to be used in a 2-way in an SUV?


I feel like the Aurasound NS3 isn't going to provide enough sizzle for a car environment. Most reviews on this site of the driver are negative, and many of those are with using a tweeter to compensate. Perhaps the setup I ran in my 2013 Mazda CX9 might intrigue you. For 6 years I ran a trio of Fostex FF85wk full range 3" speakers in the factory dash (facing up) locations. When you look up the driver it may not make much sense. They are 8 ohms so they won't get a ton of power from your amp. They have a paper cone that audiophiles seem to think only cheap OEM speakers are made of. They have a foam gasket that most assuredly should deteriorate. However, they have exceptional highs due to the metal dust cap. When I sold the car in 2019 I pulled the speakers out they were still in great condition. The surrounds didn't crumble, the paper didn't get wet or wrinkle. But how did they sound? With only power from the built-in amp on the JBL MS-8 (18 watts at 4 ohms, so maybe 9 watts at 8 ohms) and a crossover point somewhere between 120Hz and 240Hz they paired quite nicely with a set of 8" HiVi midbasses in the doors. I wasn't a big fan of the center speaker and how it narrowed the sound stage so I eventually just reconfigured the MS-8 to run stereo. I don't know if it would win over many audiophiles but when you are restricting yourself to factory locations it was good enough for me to set it and forget it. I commuted 2 hours round trip 3 days a week with that setup and never felt like I needed to change things up. I took a chance and figured the MS-8's auto tuning would fill in any weaknesses and I was right. I wish I could tell you the exact crossover point I went with but I messed with it quite a bit and don't remember where I landed. It was pretty obvious when they were being over driven, but that could have also in part been the low power I had available.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

chuyler1 said:


> I feel like the Aurasound NS3 isn't going to provide enough sizzle for a car environment. Most reviews on this site of the driver are negative, and many of those are with using a tweeter to compensate. Perhaps the setup I ran in my 2013 Mazda CX9 might intrigue you. For 6 years I ran a trio of Fostex FF85wk full range 3" speakers in the factory dash (facing up) locations. When you look up the driver it may not make much sense. They are 8 ohms so they won't get a ton of power from your amp. They have a paper cone that audiophiles seem to think only cheap OEM speakers are made of. They have a foam gasket that most assuredly should deteriorate. However, they have exceptional highs due to the metal dust cap. When I sold the car in 2019 I pulled the speakers out they were still in great condition. The surrounds didn't crumble, the paper didn't get wet or wrinkle. But how did they sound? With only power from the built-in amp on the JBL MS-8 (18 watts at 4 ohms, so maybe 9 watts at 8 ohms) and a crossover point somewhere between 120Hz and 240Hz they paired quite nicely with a set of 8" HiVi midbasses in the doors. I wasn't a big fan of the center speaker and how it narrowed the sound stage so I eventually just reconfigured the MS-8 to run stereo. I don't know if it would win over many audiophiles but when you are restricting yourself to factory locations it was good enough for me to set it and forget it. I commuted 2 hours round trip 3 days a week with that setup and never felt like I needed to change things up. I took a chance and figured the MS-8's auto tuning would fill in any weaknesses and I was right. I wish I could tell you the exact crossover point I went with but I messed with it quite a bit and don't remember where I landed. It was pretty obvious when they were being over driven, but that could have also in part been the low power I had available.


Loving the old fashioned DiyMA setup that was what this site was originally founded upon. 

Reminded me of a Volvo we setup for a client with all 8 ohm drivers that were leftover from his collection. Car had nearly 500K miles on it when we started but was dead silent inside. Some Vifa drivers, a/d/s/ amps and a Clarion HU with homemade all pass filters to delay the rears which were the original paper cone Dyns IIRC. The sub bass fell off a cliff somewhere and you couldn't get more than about 90dB but it was clinically accurate and you could listen to it for hours with no fatigue. Far as I know he's still listening to Debussy on it and racking up another 500K miles. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

daloudin said:


> Loving the old fashioned DiyMA setup that was what this site was originally founded upon.


Yuup, I’ve been in and out of here for quite a while, my join date says 2006 and the “about” section says they launched in 2005. 

Funny thing I learned recently related to that setup. Right around the same time I first installed those Fostex speakers, the folks over at Alpine were developing a system for the 2015 JK Wrangler. They decided to ditch traditional tweeters and opted for 3” drivers with metal dust caps. Given the wrangler can be exposed to some harsh conditions they didn’t go with a paper cone, but it appears that the driver that’s in my wife’s wrangler was very similar to what I had already installed in my car. I guess there’s a reason I never bothered upgrading it for her. Probably helps that they also included a quad voice coil sub driven by 4 separate 45w channels of a 12 channel amp.


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