# PC as HU, actively....



## thekl0wn

Quite simply, I'd like to know what features would be required of a PC to run a system actively. Any thoughts?


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## scott_fx

eq, x-over and time alignment.


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## DonutHands

is there anything that would facilitate that?


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## npdang

If you do a search in the general forum I believe there were a few good threads which discussed software options.


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## scott_fx

There is a woman over at mp3car.com that has a very cool setup that you may find some inspiration from:
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=92334


I believe the key is finding a card that can handle asio and vst plugins. There is also a thread over at mp3car that is trying to develop a usb dac with 7-8 chans of output that can be controlled via a software x-over



you can also do it with some older sb pci cards *with* the kx-project drivers


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## thekl0wn

I'll more than likely be writing my own drivers, or working with the SDK's from Creative. I'm wanting to do my X-overs through software. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I should be able to run a 3-way setup with one of the newer cards that's 7.1? (3 stereo outs + sub channel [not to mention a center channel] )


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## scott_fx

i think you should be able too. you may want to look into the emu line of creative cards. much better opamps and dacs


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## thekl0wn

scott_fx said:


> i think you should be able too. you may want to look into the emu line of creative cards. much better opamps and dacs


Thanks! Creative seems to be one of the better companies out there that will work with programmers on setting stuff like this up. I've spent a bit of time recently reading up on MSDN on how Windows actually sees the devices, and basically how to code your own driver..... Pretty interesting chit. Does this make me a nerd?


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## scott_fx

yes





:lol:


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## DonutHands

why would you want to use a PC to do this rather than somthing like a RF 360.2?


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## thekl0wn

internecine said:


> why would you want to use a PC to do this rather than somthing like a RF 360.2?


Everything would be integrated into one controlled source, and operated from a touchscreen.


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## scott_fx

internecine said:


> why would you want to use a PC to do this rather than somthing like a RF 360.2?


less components, easy adjustablility, endless adaptibility/upgradability, and less components in the signal path.


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## 8675309

scott_fx said:


> eq, x-over and time alignment.


x2


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## DonutHands

well, seems like a big pain in the ass until there is some sort of card and software that will output at least 7 channels (3way + sub). but good luck on all the coding and modding you need to do.


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## MarkZ

SQKev was working on something along those lines. I got the impression that it wasn't a trivial task. I would think that the sound card would need the necessary HARDWARE capabilities to handle the processing and that you'd have to create an interface to it. Relying on the PC to do it in real time for 7 channels?


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## 8675309

http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/computer-audio/

Check this site. Some of the cards and software may get pricey but it could also give you some ideas.


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## sqkev

I'm STILL in the process of my install. But let me give you a run down of how it works.

Requirements:
-a decent/fast computer with power supplies made for 12v enviroment
-screen (you need to see what you're adjusting)
-keyboard or touchscreen (for control)
-a 7.1 soundcard with asio/wdm

Softwares:
-Thuneau Frequency Allocator (2in 8outputs processing software with active crossover/eq/timealignment/DRC

OR
-Console + various vst plugins for all your processing needs

OR
free Foobar player + free plugins that will do the same thing as 2 mentioned above


Right now my setup is:
3.2gig p4 computer
7.1 audiotrak soundcard
Console as vst host + voxengo curveEQ + linearphaseeq 2 (act as xover with almost 100dB slope)

I'm still having a hard time trying to get full 8 independent outputs with my soundcard, I got 6 channels to work so far. Console + vst plugins runs in the background and winamp/WMP work just fine as multimedia player.
Great thing about going with the Console+vst plugins is the huge amount of processing vst plugins has to offer. If you want 100db/oct slopes, you've got it. If you want to add tube warmth within the digital realm, you've got it. If you want linear phase filters, you've got it. You can even import impulse responses of each driver and apply filters to them anyway you want. It all comes down to how much processing your CPU can handle.

Consider your budget if you want to go this route.
my 3.2gig computer - $350
power supply for the computer - $200
7" touchscreen - $200
soundcard - cheapest is the Maya 7.1 at $30 (you can go for the 7.1LT version which cost about $100)
Computer case - $60
Console - $60
or 
Frequency Allocator - $150

Lots of things in the carpc adds up too, but you can live without them.


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## MarkZ

Does it work for USB sound cards too? Or does it have to be PCI?


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## sqkev

MarkZ said:


> Does it work for USB sound cards too? Or does it have to be PCI?


I have no idea, I'm assuming it should, as long as the USB have 7.1output and asio/wdm drivers.

Here's a screenshot of my test rig of console
2 input -> left and right voxengo curveEQ (act as DRC) -> 3 lpgeq2 (act as xover/eq) -> voxengo audio delay (time alignment, I need 6 in the car, but for simplicity sakes, I'm using 3 right now) -> 6 channel outputs of the soundcard 










BTW, with the way I set it up now, you can run a 4 way active setup (a bit cheesy though)
The channel 1-2 output (it is fullrange as of right now) can be used as sub outputs, just lowpass at the amp and use the voxengo curve EQ to correct the subs' response. You also do not need delay on these 2 channels since they are subs.


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## DonutHands

so get a pc in your car with the touch screen and all that. then add the rf 360 and control it though the pc software on the fancy touch screen. done!

heh


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## MarkZ

Seems like a nice compact method. But what are the hardware requirements? A DCX2496 is going to be cheaper than a 3.2GHz machine!


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## sqkev

sqkev said:


> I have no idea, I'm assuming it should, as long as the USB have 7.1output and asio/wdm drivers.
> 
> Here's a screenshot of my test rig of console
> 2 input -> left and right voxengo curveEQ (act as DRC) -> 3 lpgeq2 (act as xover/eq) -> voxengo audio delay (time alignment, I need 6 in the car, but for simplicity sakes, I'm using 3 right now) -> 6 channel outputs of the soundcard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, with the way I set it up now, you can run a 4 way active setup (a bit cheesy though)
> The channel 1-2 output (it is fullrange as of right now) can be used as sub outputs, just lowpass at the amp and use the voxengo curve EQ to correct the subs' response. You also do not need delay on these 2 channels since they are subs.





internecine said:


> so get a pc in your car with the touch screen and all that. then add the rf 360 and control it though the pc software on the fancy touch screen. done!
> 
> heh


seriously, why bother buying the RF piece if you have all the powerful softwares to do the processing?


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## sqkev

MarkZ said:


> Seems like a nice compact method. But what are the hardware requirements? A DCX2496 is going to be cheaper than a 3.2GHz machine!


Well Mark, that's why I mentioned that you have to consider your budget if you're going with this carpc route.
I try to justify my budget on it for a few reasons.
1. gps (I use iGuidance 3 and it's one of the best gps softwares out there)
2. storage capability (my computer has a 160gig HD built in, I just bought a 250gig external drive for movies)
3. extreme powerful processing power through various vst plugins 
4. video capability in the car

The hardware requirement is in my post in the 1st page.


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## MarkZ

Well, I use my computer too and interface it with the DCX's. I like your idea because it cuts out the middle man, but I'm concerned about meeting the hardware requirements. I imagine multitasking suffers too. I like to have my GPS and music open at the same time. Is that doable with this system?


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## sqkev

Mark,
Here's a screenshot of the CPU usage meter in the console program. 
The computer is running 3 instances of firefox, 1 WMP with visualization (almost fullscreen in the background), console and all plugins playing, + bunch of other softwares running in the background (I'll delete unneccessary programs once I'm ready for the final install)










the computer is 3.2gig Celeron D (my bad on the first post, I thought it was P4) and 512mb of ram

BTW, I think my card can only run in 48khz sample rate mode, if yours can run multimodes (like 44khz in most mp3s) the cpu usage will be even lower (just dont try to run any high sample rates)


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## scott_fx

MarkZ said:


> Well, I use my computer too and interface it with the DCX's. I like your idea because it cuts out the middle man, but I'm concerned about meeting the hardware requirements. I imagine multitasking suffers too. I like to have my GPS and music open at the same time. Is that doable with this system?


another option (less complex...but can have drawbacks) for you is to get an alpine pxa-h701. you don't have a middle man because you're going out from the mobo to the pxa totally digitally, then you can use the h701 from there for all of the tuning.


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## sqkev

scott_fx said:


> another option (less complex...but can have drawbacks) for you is to get an alpine pxa-h701. you don't have a middle man because you're going out from the mobo to the pxa totally digitally, then you can use the h701 from there for all of the tuning.


Scott,
I believe Mark had been running deq/dcx for awhile now. (correct me if I'm wrong Mark) 

The route I'm going seems complex at first, but it really is NOT. All you need to do is figure out how to use the vst plugins and how to use Console. It's THAT simple.


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## MarkZ

sqkev said:


> Scott,
> I believe Mark had been running deq/dcx for awhile now. (correct me if I'm wrong Mark)


Yes, but I removed the DEQ recently. But yeah, the Behringer way is pretty much the same as the H701 way, only a little more feature-rich, more user-friendly (for car PCs), and cheaper.  The downside is that it's big.


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## scott_fx

sqkev said:


> Scott,
> I believe Mark had been running deq/dcx for awhile now. (correct me if I'm wrong Mark)
> 
> The route I'm going seems complex at first, but it really is NOT. All you need to do is figure out how to use the vst plugins and how to use Console. It's THAT simple.


oh, i meant less complex then writing your own drivers.

another benefit of going that route is if you dont have a fast computer.

I agree with you, your setup isn't that complex. It's basically a more advanced form of the kxproject drivers and the learning curve on that was really steep.


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## thekl0wn

I'll definately check out the apps you've posted above. I'm still going to tear into some code to see what all is involved, because from what I've read, the actual coding isn't going to be terrible... I _have_ to be missing something!


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## solacedagony

thekl0wn said:


> I'll definately check out the apps you've posted above. I'm still going to tear into some code to see what all is involved, because from what I've read, the actual coding isn't going to be terrible... I _have_ to be missing something!


I'd be interested in seeing it if you don't mind sharing! It's been awhile since I coded, but maybe I can help a little as well.


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## thekl0wn

solacedagony said:


> I'd be interested in seeing it if you don't mind sharing! It's been awhile since I coded, but maybe I can help a little as well.


See what?  I haven't begun any coding. If you want to see the references I've been looking at, they're all on MSDN. I think I started by reading up on MCI's and ActiveX.


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## solacedagony

thekl0wn said:


> See what?  I haven't begun any coding. If you want to see the references I've been looking at, they're all on MSDN. I think I started by reading up on MCI's and ActiveX.


I was meaning when you DID get started


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## thekl0wn

solacedagony said:


> I was meaning when you DID get started


Please don't hold your breath. Who knows when DID will happen!  I'm just tryin' to gather as much info as possible for now.


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## sqkev

thekl0wn said:


> I'll definately check out the apps you've posted above. I'm still going to tear into some code to see what all is involved, because from what I've read, the actual coding isn't going to be terrible... I _have_ to be missing something!


will you be running any frontends?

Today I'm experiencing some troubles with my test gig.  
With console running with about 12 vst plugins at once + RoadRunner, the computer lagged big time. It was still running, but the CPU was steadily running full speed. I gotta find out how to lower the CPU usage. Maybe a different card with different sampling rates. (btw, IIRC, all audigy cards can only run in 48khz mode)


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## thekl0wn

sqkev said:


> will you be running any frontends?


Mine. I'm working on my own front-end as of the moment. I don't need/want all the fancy GPS & navigation that RR, Frodo, CF, etc seem to be really pushing. For now, I just want music... MP3 & WMA namely. I'm still in the process of figuring out how to assign a channel to a channel. (a digital, programatic channel to the actual physical stereo output) I've been looking through some info on a nice little library called BASS from Un4seen, but I think that the channel assignments are going to have to be done basically in a driver for the hardware.



sqkev said:


> all audigy cards can only run in 48khz mode)


Thanks! Another tid-bit I didn't know!


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## sqkev

thekl0wn said:


> Mine. I'm working on my own front-end as of the moment. I don't need/want all the fancy GPS & navigation that RR, Frodo, CF, etc seem to be really pushing. For now, I just want music... MP3 & WMA namely. I'm still in the process of figuring out how to assign a channel to a channel. (a digital, programatic channel to the actual physical stereo output) I've been looking through some info on a nice little library called BASS from Un4seen, but I think that the channel assignments are going to have to be done basically in a driver for the hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Another tid-bit I didn't know!


thekl0wn, what soundcard are you using? or planning to use?
with almost any cards with asio,wdm drivers, you can assign/route the outputs. You do not need to write any custom drivers.


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## thekl0wn

sqkev said:


> thekl0wn, what soundcard are you using? or planning to use?
> with almost any cards with asio,wdm drivers, you can assign/route the outputs. You do not need to write any custom drivers.


My dev box at home might have on-board sound, my test box has an old-skool Audigy, and the server has an el-cheapo which seems to be the best out of what I currently have. I'm guessin' you're going to tell me that if I'm going to develop my own chit, I'll need to have the hardware on my dev box to correctly utilize it.... correct???

My brain's so strung out from reading different tech docs, I'm not sure where I read what anymore.


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## MarkZ

SQkev, why do you run it in 48kHz? Is it because of the plugins? On many of the cards I've tested, performance is as good at 44.1kHz as it is 48kHz (playback). Sometimes the only performance increase you see is actually dropping from 32 bit playback to 24 bit, and that the sampling frequency ends up being inconsequential.

As for frontends, I hate them all.  I've tried several, and while some are "pretty", the ease of use tends to leave a lot to be desired. I know some, like RR, are fully customizable, but it also tends to have a slight delay on my machine and I occasionally got errors even on a fresh format install. 

I just run Winamp in full screen mode and set up the quick launch bar with oversized icons to run the other programs I use.


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## thekl0wn

Found a project on SourceForge.net...

http://xover.sourceforge.net/
https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=514601

I'd like to check it out sometime.


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## jmelan

sqkev, theklown, any update on your ideas here?

have you looked at the auzentech xmeridian soundcard

its PCI, but has 8 analog outputs, all at 5V, with user replaceable opamps that you can get outstanding quality from according to some people on avsforum

i was looking at some options other than external processors and your idea seems interesting and fun.

also, sqkev, i saw in a previous thread you were looking into DRC, have you checked that out any more? it seems similar to the path alpine is taking with their IMPRINT system

convolver.sourceforge.net - program does DRC plus multichannel crossover with time alignment options (VST version available also)

i was interested in finding out more about possible options before i buy anything else


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## thekl0wn

No updates on my end of things, but with the revolution taking place over at mp3car.com, they've setup a neat section based on this... Here's the link: http://www.mp3car.com/wiki/index.php/Audio_Tuning_via_Software#Terms_you_need_to_know


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## thekl0wn

I am going to be looking into one of the listed soundcards in my above post, sometime this weekend. Once I have the soundcard, along with the drivers listed on the WiKi board above, I will probably try to get a front-end of my own to work with it. (that is, once I learn how to use it)

I'll keep progress posted, but don't hold your breath, because it will come along painfully slow!


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## sqkev

jmelan said:


> sqkev, theklown, any update on your ideas here?
> 
> have you looked at the auzentech xmeridian soundcard
> 
> its PCI, but has 8 analog outputs, all at 5V, with user replaceable opamps that you can get outstanding quality from according to some people on avsforum
> 
> i was looking at some options other than external processors and your idea seems interesting and fun.
> 
> also, sqkev, i saw in a previous thread you were looking into DRC, have you checked that out any more? it seems similar to the path alpine is taking with their IMPRINT system
> 
> convolver.sourceforge.net - program does DRC plus multichannel crossover with time alignment options (VST version available also)
> 
> i was interested in finding out more about possible options before i buy anything else


sorry I missed this post.

I got a copy of voxengocurveeq but never really got to test it out in the car since I had the project on hold. I might actually go ahead with the install some time this summer though.
I'll take a thorough look at that website. 

thekn0wn,
which soundcard are you thinking of?


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## durwood

I've actually helped put alot of that info together over there. I definitely recommend reading through that wiki and maybe the super long thread that goes with it.

One of the big hurdles for the soundcard is routing. If the card can't route the WDM stream to ASIO then you have to go with a program called VAC or virtual audio cable. Or you can use spdif out and loop it back into the Spdif In.

I picked up a pretty cool card, but the support and availibilty of the card are in the crapper. (Audiotrak Prodigy Hifi 7.1)

It's rumored that Auzentech might try to revamp their drivers to amybe include routing. I'm not promising anything though, I have only heard.


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## sqkev

durwood,
does the audiotrak hifi have full 8 channel outputs? 

one of the audiotrak cards that I tested have 6 full outputs (total control and work with vst plugins), while the other 2 channels outputs are fullrange.


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## thekl0wn

I'm not sure exactly what card I'll be looking into. With a thousand other projects going on now, money's kinda tight. Price will have an effect on this, but I don't want something that's not going to work whatsoever (or be very hard to work with).

Durwood, your work over there has been impressive. I've benefited greatly from the read! I'm gung-ho about getting into the nuts-and-bolts of this.


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## Whiterabbit

whats the revolution on MP3car? Last I checked it was still a forum filled with softwareheads trying to figure out better and better ways of getting internet in their car while driving. Anything changed?


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## thekl0wn

Seems that with the commercializing of StreetDeck, and the integration of MP3car.com with it, that there's been a bit of boost in the level of maturity over there. I never posted at all over there for the simple fact that they were all a bunch of noobie-hunters. It seems to be a bit more of a learning atmosphere now. All of the WiKi boards I've looked through seem to have some decent info in them. I still don't do much on the forums, but I'm going to be interested to see how some of the topics progress on the Wiki end.


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## Whiterabbit

what is street deck?


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## thekl0wn

I think it's StreetDeck... the front end that some of the people over there developed for commercial resale.


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## durwood

thekl0wn said:


> I'm not sure exactly what card I'll be looking into. With a thousand other projects going on now, money's kinda tight. Price will have an effect on this, but I don't want something that's not going to work whatsoever (or be very hard to work with).
> 
> Durwood, your work over there has been impressive. I've benefited greatly from the read! I'm gung-ho about getting into the nuts-and-bolts of this.


Thanks, I spent many hours trying to figure the stuff out and I'm not greedy so I passed along what I learned. 



sqkev said:


> durwood,
> does the audiotrak hifi have full 8 channel outputs?
> 
> one of the audiotrak cards that I tested have 6 full outputs (total control and work with vst plugins), while the other 2 channels outputs are fullrange.


Yes I can control all 8 outputs in console, but the crappy dongle cable that came with the card has one of my channels grounded out. I made a new cable but haven't installed it yet since i am still running digital out to my h701 at the moment. I'm still working out volume control and I want to make sure the software runs pretty solid before making a full switch over.

Some of the easier cards to work with would be the M-audio specifically the firewire 410 or the PCI 1010LT. I believe they have the routing of WDM/direct sound signals to ASIO built in.

How do you have directwire setup? Did you mute the WDM stream after connecting the "WDM out" to the "ASIO IN"?


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## sqkev

durwood said:


> Thanks, I spent many hours trying to figure the stuff out and I'm not greedy so I passed along what I learned.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can control all 8 outputs in console, but the crappy dongle cable that came with the card has one of my channels grounded out. I made a new cable but haven't installed it yet since i am still running digital out to my h701 at the moment. I'm still working out volume control and I want to make sure the software runs pretty solid before making a full switch over.
> 
> Some of the easier cards to work with would be the M-audio specifically the firewire 410 or the PCI 1010LT. I believe they have the routing of WDM/direct sound signals to ASIO built in.
> 
> How do you have directwire setup? Did you mute the WDM stream after connecting the "WDM out" to the "ASIO IN"?


I had the wiring screencapture somewhere but I lost it. Let me hook up that carpc computer later and I'll take another screenshot how it's currently wired.

BTW, are you planning for a full touchscreen setup?
I use volume control by simply using winamp.


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## durwood

I've got touchscreen but its a stretch to reach. Instead I hacked into my stock volume knob (rotary encoder) and wired it up to a mouse wheel and used autohotkey to map the up/down motion to change the volume in roadrunner. I have to fine tune the levels, but it works pretty good-just a slight delay. Not completely ideal since it loses bit depth as you lower the volume.


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## sqkev

The slight delay is fine for me, finding some space for a volume controller, OTOH, would be difficult. 

have you figured out the softwares/vst plugins to run yet??


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## durwood

sqkev said:


> The slight delay is fine for me, finding some space for a volume controller, OTOH, would be difficult.
> 
> have you figured out the softwares/vst plugins to run yet??


Yep. Lucky or unlucky for me, my factory radio is built into the dash and cannot be removed (or removed easily since the HVAC controls are tied to it).

Here's my setup:

VST Shell: Console
Crossovers: Frequency Allocator
EQ (one per side): ElectriQ
Time Delay: Voxengo Delay

Optional:
Phase Shifting: Voxengo Phase Delay

Also, ElectriQ can be used a crossover plugin since it has built in setting for crossovers, but it seems kind of hard to use vs Allocator. (But they have a free version)

Example of my setup - I get about 50% CPU useage on a socket 478 P4M 1.8Ghz


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## sqkev

durwood,
your setup is almost the same as mine. 

except that I use linearphasegraphicEQ for crossover duties (it does up to 96db/oct), and voxengocurveEQ on each output to do DRC (i haven't actually do the impulse responses and import to the program yet, so not sure of its performance for now, but heard it's really good)

if you want to test it out, let me know  

Kev


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## durwood

Oooh, 96db, now that's a freaking brickwall. How easy is it to setup/use? Does it eat up CPU usage pretty bad?

I love this console/vst plugin method. It's so easy to change out a piece of processing without uninstalling any caraudio gear.


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## MarkZ

I wish you guys would shut up. You're both making me jealous.

In my next car, I'd like to consolidate a 5u rack worth of equipment into a double din box. Feasible? 

So would you say ~1.8GHz is the minimum to run this setup? And if so, do they have them on boards (nanoITX?) that would fit on the base of a double din enclosure? Could I fit a hard drive (2.5") and an 8 channel audio board in there too?  And then rip off the face and replace it with a touchscreen? Because that would kick serious amounts of ass.

Thing is, I hate all the dashboards that people are using. I just use straight winamp double-sized.


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## durwood

I just realized linearphasegraphic EQ is one of the plugins I downloaded some time ago, but never tired. It uses FIR filtering which uses lots of CPU and you can run into problems in the lowend I think. Found this in the readme.



> *On the big scale(-96dB to +12dB range), the gain to frequency charastertic won't be certain at low frequencies, about 20 to 700Hz, by this filter's characteristic


The full version of Frequency Allocator gives you up to 42db/octave slopes, and does phase correction after the fact to make it linear again. The Lite version does not have the phase correction (Arbitrator) built in.


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## durwood

MarkZ said:


> I wish you guys would shut up. You're both making me jealous.
> 
> In my next car, I'd like to consolidate a 5u rack worth of equipment into a double din box. Feasible?


Yes  It's called a computer 



> So would you say ~1.8GHz is the minimum to run this setup? And if so, do they have them on boards (nanoITX?) that would fit on the base of a double din enclosure? Could I fit a hard drive (2.5") and an 8 channel audio board in there too?  And then rip off the face and replace it with a touchscreen? Because that would kick serious amounts of ass.
> 
> Thing is, I hate all the dashboards that people are using. I just use straight winamp double-sized.


Ya I wouldn't go too much lower than that. The newer core solo and duo processors would work very well though. 

Look for an SBC (Single Board Computers). They can get very small. For soundcard, there are many PRO audio cards that would work-they are external (firewire interface). There are some PCI card options too.


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## thekl0wn

Man-o-man, am I ever glad I revived this thread! I've learned more in the past few days, than I would've in a month scouring the internet on my own!


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## durwood

hehehe.  I spent months researching all this stuff back and forth between many forums. Initially I wanted to do this over 3 years ago but had to settle for the BS stuff supplied with an Audigy 2ZS soundcard and some car audio gear, which was replaced by my H701, and now....


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## sqkev

durwood,
the only downfall to lpeq is its non configurable crossover points, but the assigned ones are good enough for our use, esp with the 96db/oct slopes. I'd like to try the FA too, but the full version is like $150, something I can't spend to just test out while there are free vsts out there.

MarkZ, 
I don't think the mini itx boards have enough performance for our use, since these programs require heavy use of processing. The mp3car guys can run the smaller boards since they don't need the cpu power, we do  .
The microatx cases aren't too bad if you think about it, they're smaller than a 1cube subwoofer box. It works out great for me since I have no subwoofer box in the trunk. (I run IB) You can get the athlon x2 setups for really cheap nowadays, performance is decent for our use.


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## durwood

I hoped on the FA deal before Xmas. It was $100 for both the full and lite version.

I myself run a microatx. The board was $20, the laptop processor I got off ebay $25. There are the other essential parts, but this was really budget based.

There are ITX boards that support the Intel Core solo and duo processors but be prepared to shellout >$300 just for the board.


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## sqkev

i got the 4400+ and board for $100 about 2 months ago, you could get them for even cheaper now. Cases anywhere from $50-100. Not bad considering the performance they put out. 

Back to our regular programming now, 
anyone wanna try out the voxengocurve eq and let us know how it works out?
http://www.voxengo.com/product/curveeq/


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## MarkZ

How big are the microATX's? Is it fan-cooled?

Maybe I'll wait for the technology to be there so that I can fit it all in the dash. Seems as if the nano-ITX with laptop hard drive would fit inside a hollowed-out double DIN.


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## thekl0wn

sqkev said:


> anyone wanna try out the voxengocurve eq and let us know how it works out?
> http://www.voxengo.com/product/curveeq/


Sure, I'm made of money! [/joke]


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## sqkev

if you absolutely have no space for about 1cube (a bit less), then microatx is out of the question. 

One thing I found out for sure what my cpu needs was actually buying the gears, installed what I wanted and ran it to check for stability. Again, what durwood and I are running require a good bit of cpu power. When you factor gps or video into the system, there's no way a slow cpu can keep up.


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## MarkZ

I've got a fan-less miniITX now, but it only goes about 700MHz or thereabouts. It's in a 1u rackmount case with tons of room to spare.

Keep in mind also that I'd prefer (if the software supports it) to use Win98, which should shave off memory requirements considerably and possibly free up a little CPU usage. Also, I've found that the front ends that you guys are using tend to use a bit of CPU space too -- something I won't need since I only use Winamp, which is low overhead.

So if I were to only use Winamp + the signal processing tools that you guys use, would I still need 1.8GHz? Or is there something a little smaller and less hot that could potentially fit into a hollowed-out double din case? The mp3car store says their motherboards are 17cm x 17cm. That's less than the 7" double din standard. But these look like they max out at around 1.5GHz (fanless). Would that be sufficient for an audio-only application? I don't need video, and I could live without GPS.


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## sqkev

MarkZ,
I ran the console, with all the vst plugins running, along with winamp on a testbench 2.4gig p4/512ram (windows xp) setup and it was running a bit sluggish. A 1.8gig would probably be doable, but I don't think the DRC plugin would be too happy with that. You might need to find various vsts with low cpu consumption and test them out yourself. 

Also note that the newer soundcards with asio,e-wdm and directwire probably won't work with the win98. I think you're very limited to XP for now.


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## thekl0wn

Also, Microsoft is pulling the plug (actually they did about a year ago) on all 98 support... I know, I know, MS-Support is a joke, but applications, drivers, etc, etc, you're going to run into issues there as well as with the processing bit. Plus, IMO, XP is more stable.


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## Whiterabbit

MarkZ said:


> Would that be sufficient for an audio-only application? I don't need video, and I could live without GPS.


isnt a computer excessive for an audio only application? arent there products out there like a music keg or hard drive based cd changer kind of device that will give you access to gigabytes worth of stolen music?


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## sqkev

Whiterabbit said:


> isnt a computer excessive for an audio only application? arent there products out there like a music keg or hard drive based cd changer kind of device that will give you access to gigabytes worth of stolen music?


I can't speak for others, but for me, the pc's primary function is to serve as a good processor.


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## thekl0wn

Whiterabbit said:


> isnt a computer excessive for an audio only application? arent there products out there like a music keg or hard drive based cd changer kind of device that will give you access to gigabytes worth of stolen music?


Yes, but what we're talking about in this thread is not just music playback, we are talking about processing multiple music streams multiple times, on-the-fly! We're not talking about just having thousands of songs on our hard drive, and then playing them back using the default drivers that came with our soundcards. To process a decent bitrate audio stream takes a decent amount of processing power, and when you start dividing that stream, and then processing each stream actively through the CPU, and then getting playback, you're talking about needing some fairly serious power!


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## MarkZ

thekl0wn said:


> Also, Microsoft is pulling the plug (actually they did about a year ago) on all 98 support... I know, I know, MS-Support is a joke, but applications, drivers, etc, etc, you're going to run into issues there as well as with the processing bit. Plus, IMO, XP is more stable.


Well I use Win98 now in my car pc (as well as on some of my other computers -- including the one I'm typing from now). I prefer it in a lot of applications, especially memory-intensive apps or computers that need quick startup/shutdown times. Lack of support is no big deal. You can usually find all the drivers you need on manufacturer sites. And in the car, antivirus and spyware isn't an issue. In fact, by default I don't have it connected to the internet (faster startup), and when I do it's only allowed to connect to my main server at home, so it doesn't need antivirus.


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## MarkZ

Whiterabbit said:


> isnt a computer excessive for an audio only application? arent there products out there like a music keg or hard drive based cd changer kind of device that will give you access to gigabytes worth of stolen music?


There are only a few hard drive based units out there, and none of them provide the signal processing capabilities that we're talking about in this thread. I'm kinda cheating in my current setup because I talk to my DCX2496 through the computer, but it still gives me in-dash control (well, with one of the units at least).


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## durwood

Well I don't know if I would use it only for music, but for having all my cds, GPS, DVD when I need it, wireless internet for quick info, and sound processing that rivals the Alpine F1 status for <$1000, what would you do?

Mark-

Is this small enough?


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## MarkZ

durwood said:


> Mark-
> 
> Is this small enough?


Cool. Now I need a power supply -- the M1-ATX seems small enough. A laptop hard drive would probably work ok.

But the big question: 8-ch audio card?


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## durwood

I'd have to look around for other 3.5" biscuit boards. Try to find one with firewire and the pro firewire external soundcard becomes your processor. M-audio, Motu, Echo 3G layla, are a few that come to mind.


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## newtitan

speaking of auzentech cards ( I have one they are AWESOME)


check out this rather detailed carpc


http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/worklogs/92334-new-carpc-one-tuning.html


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## sqkev

newtitan said:


> speaking of auzentech cards ( I have one they are AWESOME)
> 
> 
> check out this rather detailed carpc
> 
> 
> http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/worklogs/92334-new-carpc-one-tuning.html



I like that setup, very attentive to details, but lack of info on the processing/software front, maybe he/she's trying to keep that in private?

I, for one, can't hear the differences in op-amp.


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## sqkev

MarkZ said:


> Cool. Now I need a power supply -- the M1-ATX seems small enough. A laptop hard drive would probably work ok.
> 
> But the big question: 8-ch audio card?


MarkZ,
try the auzentech cards, I've read numerous rave reviews from hardforums and the other soundcard audio forums. The Audiotrak cards are decent too. I'm testing out the lower end of the Audiotrak now and its drivers are stable with certain motherboards. The asio,e-wdm, directwire work perfectly in Console. 

BTW, are all carpc guys running 4 way active?


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## Abmolech

Nope,
VBAP for me, 18 crossovers....


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## durwood

Ambolech is crazy. 

4 way here.

I was going to say another card to look at and then found out Auzentech will be distributing them now too.

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/s-inferno.php

The X-meridian has user swappable opamps and it has 5V low impedance outputs.

Other cards I looked at besides the x-meridian and Sondigo inferno:

M-audio 1010
M-audio Firewire 410
Motu Ultralite
esi-pro esp1010
RME 9632

Oh, found a new one if you need up to 12 channels
Echo Fire12


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## sqkev

durwood said:


> Ambolech is crazy.
> 
> 4 way here.
> 
> I was going to say another card to look at and then found out Auzentech will be distributing them now too.
> 
> http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/s-inferno.php
> 
> The X-meridian has user swappable opamps and it has 5V low impedance outputs.
> 
> Other cards I looked at besides the x-meridian and Sondigo inferno:
> 
> M-audio 1010
> M-audio Firewire 410
> Motu Ultralite
> esi-pro esp1010
> RME 9632
> 
> Oh, found a new one if you need up to 12 channels
> Echo Fire12


I think the important thing to note is: has any of those cards been tested of the directwire or internal routing feature, which is an absolute need, for us?

I know of a few cards mentioned in the original diyaudio.com thread that did NOT work.


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## durwood

Well I know the m-audio cards have the routing feature and the firewire410 was definitely reported to work, the 1010 is the pci version so I figure it must work too.

The author/creator of Freq Allocator uses the RME card. The esi-pro card has directwire. the motu and echo are the only too I don't know for sure.


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## MarkZ

Thanks everyone for the suggestions about cards. I'll need 8 channels for a 3-way + center + sub.

I'm still trying to get familiar with this software. I'm wondering if there are any plugins that would do something akin to pro logic for my center?


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## sqkev

From the very beginning when shinobiwan started the PCXO thread on diyaudio, a few attempted with certain Maudio cards but failed. The thread is rather long, that's why I didn't link to it here. 
I think it'll be nice if we can actually list the specific ones that already been tested to work with Console or FA, that'll be nice for others when they do their search.


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## sqkev

MarkZ said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions about cards. I'll need 8 channels for a 3-way + center + sub.
> 
> I'm still trying to get familiar with this software. I'm wondering if there are any plugins that would do something akin to pro logic for my center?



That's an excellent concern/question,
do you need it to be a true center channel? or a pseudo summed center channel?

You might get away with summing 2 fullrange channels when you're doing the internal routing to the channel center and limit its bandwidth to act like a center channel.
There might be a vst or vst host out there that might be able to do 5.1, but I don't know it.

here's a quick search link from google for free vst plugins
http://www.audiomastermind.com/browse-free_vst_plugins-5886988-1.html


BTW, I added some tube vst, it's definitely fun to try. Who needs hybrid tube amps anymore?


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## thekl0wn

sqkev said:


> From the very beginning when shinobiwan started the PCXO thread on diyaudio, a few attempted with certain Maudio cards but failed. The thread is rather long, that's why I didn't link to it here.
> I think it'll be nice if we can actually list the specific ones that already been tested to work with Console or FA, that'll be nice for others when they do their search.


 I agree wholeheartedly!


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## durwood

sqkev said:


> From the very beginning when shinobiwan started the PCXO thread on diyaudio, a few attempted with certain Maudio cards but failed. The thread is rather long, that's why I didn't link to it here.
> I think it'll be nice if we can actually list the specific ones that already been tested to work with Console or FA, that'll be nice for others when they do their search.


I started to read throught that thread...it was freaking long. I even posted in it a few times but I wasn't geeting the answers I was looking for and there was confusion for a while when I said I wanted to use it in the car. Big mistake.

IF you go to Frequencies allocator site and rad through their forums, a few people listed cards that worked. There was supposed to be a supported cards list but it still hasn't surfaced, although there were plenty of work around ideas.


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## sqkev

Durwood, I watched that thread grew from the first day it started. All I had in mind was: how would I apply this to the car. It was the sole reason that pushed me to do carpc. Obviously, certain opinions are just opinions, take it with a grain of salt.

I'll check out FA forum.

Don't we have a member here who's into convolution? maybe he can help with DRC and how to use it.


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## durwood

there were a few people who used it. Npdang has a thread in the tutorials that they posted about it. I discarded that method, it wasn't really something I was interested in. I prefered the ASIO vst plugin method instead, it seemed like a better route since there are so many plugins out there.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=146765#post146765

Digitalcorrect and jmelan


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## MarkZ

sqkev said:


> That's an excellent concern/question,
> do you need it to be a true center channel? or a pseudo summed center channel?
> 
> You might get away with summing 2 fullrange channels when you're doing the internal routing to the channel center and limit its bandwidth to act like a center channel.
> There might be a vst or vst host out there that might be able to do 5.1, but I don't know it.
> 
> here's a quick search link from google for free vst plugins
> http://www.audiomastermind.com/browse-free_vst_plugins-5886988-1.html
> 
> 
> BTW, I added some tube vst, it's definitely fun to try. Who needs hybrid tube amps anymore?


I'm currently running an L+R center, and I like it. But you know what happens when werewolf puts ideas in your head...


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## sqkev

a new (still in beta phase) dsp DRC software that's perfect for our use
it's still free for now, jump on it to test while you can

www.juicehifi.com



> System Requirements
> 
> 
> 
> A computer with Windows XP or Windows Vista with .NET executable installed. Sound card, microphone and microphone preamp for measurement purposes is also required.
> 
> Recommended program for real time convolution:
> 
> The open source program Convolver made by John Pavel. Audiolense automatically generates configuration files that interface with Convolver. Convolver comes in three packages:
> 
> o Convolver that can be inserted as a plugin in for instance Windows Mediaplayer
> 
> o Convolverwrapper that can be inserted as a plugin in some of the other software players
> 
> o ConvolverVST that can be inserted as a VST plugin in Console or another VST host.
> 
> Any real time convolution program that can handle wav files with 32 bit floating point words can be used.
> 
> Recommended Microphone and Microphone Amp:
> 
> o Any decent quality microphone and microphone amp may be used as long as they fit into the sound card.
> 
> o The MP - 1r measurement kit from IBF Akustik is a cost effective solution that provides good measurement results
> 
> o MP - 1r comes with a calibration file that may be directly loaded into the Audiolense .
> 
> Recommended Sound Card / DAC:
> 
> o Professional sound cards or DACs from companies like Lynx or RME are recommended for best performance.
> 
> o Typical consumer sound cards will also work well.
> 
> o High end USB or firewire DACs with good jitter rejection
> 
> o Other combinations of high quality digital output and DACs
> 
> o Audiolense works well with embedded sound cards in some of the typical media center computers.
> 
> For fully active systems we highly recommend a professional sound card and an internal channel routing that ensures that all sounds are played through the filters.


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## sqkev

guys, I just tested out the juicehifi software, it almost drove my laptop to a complete halt when it was doing the filtering.

my testbed this time is in my bedroom, the temporary insignia fullrangers + el84 tube amp. After the filtering was applied (the output was drawn/configure by user), the system sounded a bit more thin and a tad more relaxed. I'm not sure if there's any large improvement over the whole system, but I can definitely tell that the bass got thinner and sounds more realistic at low volume (as if the el84 makes any bass at all). The voices seem to be more coherent as well.

I found that the left channel output was missing the top end, and the right slightly measured better. I need a better soundcard for this laptop to fully evaluate this software. But, from what I've seen so far, it does work and real easy to use. I think it's a keeper for me. I'll install the software in my carpc tomorrow and will register for full version.

BTW, Mark, the damn thing requires .net to run, the convolver also requires win 2000, or xp. Seems like you'll be missing out on this if you're still intending to run 98.


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## RedGTiVR6

sqkev said:


> (btw, IIRC, all audigy cards can only run in 48khz mode)


Not entirely true. The Audigy 2 ZS can run in bit perfect mode. Now I'm not sure about the others though... 

yes - I know this is an old post...


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## RedGTiVR6

sqkev said:


> I like that setup, very attentive to details, but lack of info on the processing/software front, maybe he/she's trying to keep that in private?
> 
> I, for one, can't hear the differences in op-amp.


Nope - because i hadn't gotten to that point yet...


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## RedGTiVR6

thekl0wn said:


> No updates on my end of things, but with the revolution taking place over at mp3car.com, they've setup a neat section based on this... Here's the link: http://www.mp3car.com/wiki/index.php/Audio_Tuning_via_Software#Terms_you_need_to_know


 
_*I'd like to encourage ANYONE on this forum with any info to add to that wiki or to the thread to PLEASE do so.*_

I've gotten back on the kick to ramp up the informational side of the forums with the new advanced FAQ system.

I will be putting the wiki article in the advanced FAQ here soon. (find it here: http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/advfaq.php?do=view&advfaqid=24)

Unfortuantely, I have not had a chance to actually get to the tuning on my CarPC but I do plan on setting up my test rig again and trying it all in house sometime in the near future.


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