# Is This Amp a Good Deal For Me?



## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

I'm kind of new to car audio... so I don't know much about specs. I've set up amps / subs in my last 3 cars but it was always the same system.

Is this a good deal?

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-GM-D8601-Class-Amplifier-Remote/dp/B00CFX58YI










I want to run it two 12's in a prefab ported box... Most likely I'll put two 300 or 400 RMS subs in because they suit my price range. Realistically I'll use the two descent 12's I have now until I can afford the other ones.

This amp will only be used for bass, and connecting the two subs I mentioned above.

I'm open to other suggestions and would consider a $200-250 price range for an amp if there's anything better for my needs.

*NOTE* Obviously I want as much bass as I can get for the price... but I'm not looking for a train horn that will scare everyone around me and kill babies. I'm not a super-enthusiast, so suggesting a $1500 amp won't help.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

It's maybe a good deal if that's what you need, but it's hard to tell from _the two descent 12's I have now_ or _two 12's in a prefab ported box_. Most would choose their drivers and implementation first then consider what's needed from an amp.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Sorry. Forgot I was on a forum there for a minute.

Roll on with the "Drop patch converter ohm data default retainer plug bleep bloop bleep blop"


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

That amp would probably be fine. I know a lot of people have had great success with them, while others have had noise issues. There are several amps within your budget that will easily meet your needs. 

However, as rob feature mentioned, my larger concern would be your subwoofer and enclosure selections. Prefab ported box is an instant "red flag" for me. Prefab can be fine for sealed, as long as the volume is correct. It is rare that you find a prefab ported enclosure that is both built well and has a decent tuning frequency. Most are tuned high to maximize output at the cost of musicality.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> Sorry. Forgot I was on a forum there for a minute.
> 
> Roll on with the "Drop patch converter ohm data default retainer plug bleep bloop bleep blop"


Sorta lost me on that one. 

Yes, the amp is a good deal for you. Buy it long time.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

This is my box... I already own it:










https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IFEFRMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Like I said, ideally I'd put 300 or 400 RMS Subs in it.

Maybe two Kicker 40CWD122 or Kicker CompVR 43CVR122










*40CWD122:* Kicker 40CWD122 CompD Series 12" subwoofer with dual 2-ohm voice coils at Crutchfield.com

*CompVR 43CVR122:* Kicker 40CWD122 CompD Series 12" subwoofer with dual 2-ohm voice coils at Crutchfield.com

My current subs are old and dusty. One is a VR3 that came with a car I bought, and the other is a Pioneer (not sure about the model) that I bought from a scary man in a parking lot for $20.

*Another vital question* I forgot to ask is, when using the amp only for bass, is it a better value for price to get a mono amp?

Future proofing isn't really a concern because as far as I'm concerned I'm at the top of my game and don't really think ever want more than that.

Thanks for the response.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

No good information available for the enclosure regarding the tuning. My guess, that enclosure and those subs will be very peaky around 45-50 Hz, with virtually no output below there. 

For subwoofers, yes, mono amps are typically the better choice.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rton20s said:


> My guess, that enclosure and those subs will be very peaky around 45-50 Hz, with virtually no output below there.


Sorry... again... new at this.

Out of curiosity I played this audio sweep in my car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqfPx8peqNI

I could hear it all from 25... but noticed that the bass got a little wavy between 35 and 40 Hz, and smoothed out past that... For reference, the stereo system in my room picks it up about 40.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Yeah, that enclosure is on the small side for those Kickers you mention and likely most any other 12. Something that works well in that smaller airspace might be more ideal - I dunno what that would be though. Looks like the vendor included port area in the 1.6 cube (each) figure for that enclosure and that's generous considering the ports and any divider. You'd have to subtract vent volume to be sure. That'd leave you maybe 1.2 ish? Maybe?


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Based on the photo, the port doesn't have a bend in it and so it can't be more than 13.75" long, but could be as short as 12". I say this as I suspect the port width is 1.5" to 2" and the clearance between the back wall and the port walls will not be less than the width of the port, so likely 13.75" long at it's longest, but could easily be less. 

Still, with the dimensions of the enclosure and the range of what I'd suspect the port to be, I get a tuning of 31-37Hz. I strongly suspect it to be closer to 37hz than to 31Hz. 

Now, that amp lacks a proper subsonic/infrasonic filter, so if it is in fact tuned at 37Hz or close to it, you run a high risk of driver failure due to over excursion below the port tuning.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Strange. If vendors paid close attention to what people wanted, why wouldn't they just give exactly that and cut out the labor of a DIY box? I understand in the rest of the business world that manufacturers cheapen materials to make more money... but this is wood were talking about right? Wood.

Or is it only good if sweat stains, memories, and orphan tears are plastered in?

Not defending my junky $60 box, but there have to be some good ones out there somewhere... I'd never buy a prefab smartphone.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

There are some really good enclosures out there, but most aren't cheap, not by a long shot. 

Sadly, many manufacturers are listening, but only to what they want to hear. There are more people out there that value their cargo space and don't want a huge enclosure in their trunk. So, I figure they see people want a smaller enclosure, which means less materials and that equates to less cost for them. However, many want their sub(s) loud and with a smaller enclosure, a higher tuning tends to be a must, but that also allows for more output for "bass heads"

Now, if you want a nice enclosure custom built to the specs of your sub or to your specifications, that's going to cost you, more often than not. 

Now you spoke of manufacturers cutting costs where they can to make more off the product, but then go on to say this is merely wood. Well, NDF still costs a good bit, though many opt to go cheaper with particle board and then instead of 3/4", they go 5/8". This may only save them a few bucks, but when they are building 1000's of these enclosures, that "few bucks" really begins to add up. 

If you know what you want, as far as internal volume and tuning, then you can search for such. However, it may not end up with dimensions that suit your needs well at all.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

FlossBandit said:


> Strange. If vendors paid close attention to what people wanted, why wouldn't they just give exactly that and cut out the labor of a DIY box? I understand in the rest of the business world that manufacturers cheapen materials to make more money... but this is wood were talking about right? Wood.
> 
> Or is it only good if sweat stains, memories, and orphan tears are plastered in?
> 
> Not defending my junky $60 box, but there have to be some good ones out there somewhere... I'd never buy a prefab smartphone.


It's not that this is a bad enclosure, it's that ported enclosures are not universal. A ported enclosure should be built for the specific subs being used, and the tuning frequency that is desired. 

Sealed boxes are very forgiving. Small changes to the enclosure volume don't make huge differences, so universal sealed boxes are very common, and pretty reasonable. With a pre-fab ported enclosure you could get lucky, or you could have terrible response, with a nasty peak. 

So, there really are great pre-fabs out there, especially sealed. But a pre-fab ported box is a gamble.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Weigel21 said:


> There are more people out there that value their cargo space and don't want a huge enclosure in their trunk.


Okay. Now it's starting to come together. That makes a lot more sense. Mainstream customers want more trunk space, but it gives them less performance. This leaves a small niche market for people who want max performance and don't mind sacrificing the space.



rton20s said:


> ...those subs will be very peaky around 45-50 Hz, with virtually no output below there.


You guys are pointing out things I'm starting to notice. On the way to get food last night I realized I could barely hear the lowest note in the intro of 'Gonorrhea' by Lil Wayne. I don't really listen to rap all that much but the note stood out. It's about 10 seconds in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cl7Q14VV44


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Thanks for the help so far guys. I've been trying to study up but I have 1 final question.

If I were to wire two Kicker 43CVR124's (4 ohm, 400 RMS) like in the image below at 1 ohm using the Pioneer stated above (800 watts RMS x 1 at 1 ohm) would I be okay?

Link to Amp Specs:

Pioneer GM-D8601 Mono subwoofer amplifier — 800 watts RMS at 1 ohm at Crutchfield.com

Link to Sub Specs:

Kicker CompVR 43CVR124 12" subwoofer with dual 4-ohm voice coils at Crutchfield.com










I'd be using the ported box from above at least for now... because there's not much I can do about it at this point.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Yes, wiring the subs as the image shows would be perfectly fine, as far as power to the subs and load to the amp goes. 

However, I feel obligated to say once again that running a ported enclosure tuned as high as I suspect that enclosure to be while using an amplifier without a proper Subsonic/Infrasonic filter will run a noticably higher risk of driver failure due to over excursion below the port tuning. 

Then with that enclosure being a bit smaller than the lowest manufacturer listed allowance will likely result in a noticeably peaky response one won't like. 

May want to get an external SSF, such as the 37Hz SSF FMOD cable by Harison Labs.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Weigel21 said:


> ....higher risk of driver failure...


That's a little bit scary. I went to the manufacturer's site to ask about the tuning but their Contact Us page is broken when you submit a form. Maybe I'll call tomorrow when they're open.

You were right. The port doesn't have a bend. These are the dimensions I took with a tape measure. I'd enter them into a calculator but can't seem to find the right one.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Wow, worse than I thought. 

I figure it to be 2.75cuft (1.375cuft per sub) and tuned to 42Hz. 

I really didn't think the port was that wide. 

Yeah, going without a proper SSF and playing anything with some deep bass, chances are fairly good your subs will be short lived. 

I'd strongly recommend picking up that 37Hz 18dB SSF FMOD cable by Harison Labs. That or avoid music with deep bass and/or set the gain to dramatically limit output sent to the subs so they don't exceed their Xmax below the port tuning. 

Obviously, the latter two options are ones few would be willing to take. 

Best of luck.


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

Couldn't he just block the port with some wood and male it a sealed box? It would be safer. Like the other guys said ported boxes are not one size fits all


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Weigel21 said:


> I'd strongly recommend picking up that 37Hz 18dB SSF FMOD cable by Harison Labs.


Okay... but as a mainstream consumer I'm a little leery of buying products from a Geocities-esk website that has the words "God's judgement" and "God haters" with a picture of a dog in costume.

Reference:

Harrison Labs Crossovers - FMODS, PFMODS, FMOD CABLES, BASS BLOCKERS


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Sealing off the port is, as another member mentioned, an option too. 

As for the whole "God" thing and a dog in costume, I'd never seen that before, but I don't visit Harison labs' website often. I know Parts Express carries their products though. 

Still, if your ultimate plan is to go with a ported enclosure properly sized and tuned lower, then that FMOD cable would be a one time use product and not really worth it in the long run. So yeah, if the OP can seal off the port good and tight, that's probably the "better" option. Might not look pretty, but as long as the subs survive to see their next enclosure, what was done will have done it's job.


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

I guess I didn't see another person saying to close off the port. But, anyways OP I would build a plug the size of the port, and then other one an inch bigger. Sandwich the tworld together and seal it up. Especially if you are planning on getting a different box later. The sealed box will save your subs from the low frequencys and heck you might even like it sealed.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Guys I'm not completely opposed to sealing it up or eventually replacing the box if there's a real threat to the subs. I get that an improper amount of air pressure can push back and cause it to split through the sub.

The only thing is... this is a low/mid-range setup at best. It's going to cost me around $290 for the amp and both subs.

Is it possible that in planes we're talking about fighter jets and flying Cessnas?
...that in cars were talking Lambos and driving Grand Ams?
...that in CPUs we're talking Xeons and using Pentiums?
...that in guitars we're talking Custom Les Pauls and playing Squiers?

Note I really don't know what I'm talking about... just skeptical.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

@ vwguy383, the "other member" was meant as you. 

@FlossBandit, it doesn't matter if they are $20 subs and a $50 amp, I'm just letting you know that running the setup as it'll be setup, with the ported enclosure that's tuned fairly high and amp capable of rated power to the subs, yet lacking a SSF, there is more than a moderate risk of damage to the subs, unless further actions are taken. 

If you have no problem playing the setup as so until you get different and seeing how far your luck goes, that's perfectly fine. 

I drive a 99' Cavalier RS I bought for $100, but I still perform routine maintenance to ensure the car will continue to operate. Cost of the equipment doesn't matter. You either take measures to ensure it'll last or you push your luck. The choice is yours.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Maybe just do what you have in mind & stuff that thing with 1.5 lb/sq foot of polyfil and call it a day. If you're unhappy with it then, come back and talk some more. If it meets your expectations, then hoorah! I will say that I'm skeptical about that amp providing 800W & staying happy at one ohm with a >100 dB S/N ratio, but would also be pleasantly surprised to hear I am wrong. FWIW - in my basshead days, which were way before subsonic filters on amps, I never killed a sub despite trying very hard. Amps - that's a different story.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The more you post, the more I am convinced you just posted looking affirmation of your choices. However, you have found yourself at a site where the general consensus of the vast majority of members runs counter to your plans. "Budget," in your or any other case is never an excuse. People on this site have built some very nice, even outstanding systems on a very tight budget. Haphazardly choosing equipment based on availability, price and name recognition is a risky approach to audio. 

You've been provided some good advice in your thread and you continue to "kick against the pricks." Take the advice, or don't. That is up to you. But, there are better approaches to achieving your goals. In my mind, the combination of equipment you have chosen isn't a recipe for either great sounding or loud bass. Yes, even on a budget.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> Maybe just do what you have in mind & stuff that thing with 1.5 lb/sq foot of polyfil and call it a day...


Thanks man. I've had to Google a few things that you say but for the most part it's been pretty down to earth. That's an art form. Some enthusiasts (not specifically in car audio) get so swept away in some 'Stephen Hawking language' that they can't relate it to the common man.

I contacted the retailer who sold me the box on Amazon and they told me that it was tuned to 34 Hz. I've tried to contact the manufacturer but they never pick up the phone and their Contact Us page is broken. Who knows if 34 is really true. Also the MDF is 3/4" everywhere but the face.










It kind of makes sense though. If most people want a box that is tuned in the low to mid 30's it seems like that's what they'd provide. Surely a manufacturer would be competent enough to cut the right measurement.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rton20s said:


> The more you post, the more I am convinced you just posted looking affirmation of your choices


Yeah dude, affirmation's a big part of it. 3 days ago I thought a box was just a box, a box with a hole in it was better, and subwoofers go boom... That was it.

You guys have taught me a lot already.


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## crispin (May 23, 2011)

for less than $10 more this would be a better amp.

This amp does rated power and has a sub sonic filter.

I have been running one for 4 years with no problems.

Audiopipe APMI1300 Mono 1 Channel 1000W Mini Design Class D MOSFET Amplifier | eBay


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

crispin said:


> for less than $10 more...| eBay[/url]


That's not a bad deal. I found it on Amazon for $113.90. If the RMS specs at the bottom are right it's got to be a 2k max amp.

I've looked for hours at this point and most of the mono amps have higher wattages (3k+) but only have 2 connection points, and only go down to 2 ohms... so my only choice would be to run them (2 12" dual 4 ohm 400 RMS) at 4 ohms... and if I understand correctly I'd get less power on those amps than running them on the Pioneer at 1 ohm.

Yours is definitely a contender. I'll keep it in mind. Your amp fits everything I need. Honestly, the only real reason why I haven't dove on it yet is because I've never heard of Audiopipe and noticed that they didn't even bother to catalog it or it's specs on the website... But then again I know very little about car audio so could be missing something. I'm just afraid it's a Rogue or Behringer in guitar speak.
*
But does anybody else have any other suggestions out there?*


Must be under $150 (my budget fluctuated a little)
Must be stable at 1 ohm
Must be 800w RMS or greater
Must have a bass knob
_Would prefer_ a subsonic filter
_Would prefer_ 4 connection points (it feels weird to say 2 channels when talking about a mono amp.)

All of this should have been in the first line of the damn thread but I really didn't know any better.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> That's not a bad deal. I found it on Amazon for $113.90. If the RMS specs at the bottom are right it's got to be a 2k max amp.
> 
> I've looked for hours at this point and most of the mono amps have higher wattages (3k+) but only have 2 connection points, and only go down to 2 ohms... so my only choice would be to run them (2 12" dual 4 ohm 400 RMS) at 4 ohms... and if I understand correctly I'd get less power on those amps than running them on the Pioneer at 1 ohm.
> 
> ...


I'll just say you're asking an awful lot there for the coin. That said, yeah, I have a suggestion. Scrap the 1 ohm requirement (again, I'll be surprised if that Pioneer lasts very long at 1 ohm). Scrap the 800W RMS requirement. Forget about max power. Now you have way more options . 

FWIW, my old Civic was good for 136 dB at 50 Hz on 200W/sub - 2 old school CV 12s in an appropriate vented enclosure. Just choose a more efficient driver and use less power.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Looking at amplifiers at $150 or less, there's NO amplifier on the market that will actually produce 3k RMS within that budget. All of these 3K amplifiers you are seeing over rate their gear and love to boast PEAK power output specs like they mean something. 

Most 1 ohm stable amplifiers are going to be capable of more power than you need and will cost you a good deal more than your current budget. 

I completely agree, ditch the idea of running at 1 ohm. And with the subs you are talking about, the Kickers, they look to be rated at 300RMS, so really, all you need is an amplifier capable of 600RMS. Now [email protected] ohm capable amplifiers are abundant and many good ones are within your budget, meeting all your other requirements. 

While I don't believe that Pioneer will have any issues running at 1 ohm, it's really not a great match for the setup you plan to run. 

And to be quite honest, I've not been a big fan of most kicker setups I've heard. If loud is all you want, sure, they can be alright, but there's better for similar cost. 

Jumping back to amplifiers though, you talked about having not heard of Audiopipe. They've been around for years (since 2005), and while a lower cost budget brand, all the amp dyno tests I've seen done on their amplifiers have shown them to be good performers as far as output. 

Still, if some changes were made to your requirements and you were willing to go another route with the sub(s)/enclosure, I feel you could fair much better.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Weigel21 said:


> ...there's NO amplifier on the market that will actually produce 3k RMS within that budget...


It was peak power... I should have specified.



Weigel21 said:


> ...And with the subs you are talking about, the Kickers, they look to be rated at 300RMS...


The plan changed a bit. It's confusing but I found some reasonable dual 12" 4 ohm 400 RMS Kickers



rob feature said:


> ...Scrap the 1 ohm requirement...





Weigel21 said:


> ...I completely agree, ditch the idea of running at 1 ohm...


Yeah, as it goes on I kind of agree. I'd be running at it's lowest ohm rating and highest RMS (800 @ 1 ohm) Seems kind of like playing Fallout on a Best Buy laptop... taking it to the max.

I found some other Kickers that are 2 ohm with the exact same specs (400 RMS, dual 12") for around the same price. That opens up a whole new window for amps rated at 2 ohms... and allows for an amp with a lot more headroom as far as RMS goes. Maybe I'll rethink the driver on that one too though. I would rather go for something smooth, deep and rich than heavy, loud and buzzy. 2 ohm subs are still probably a good thing to be searching for. At least I got something from it.

Thanks again guys for all your help.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Spend a few bucks more and get the GM-D9601 or Polk PA D1000.1 and run it at 2 ohms.

I would also probably be looking at different subwoofers. JBL and Infinity usually offer very nice low cost options.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rton20s said:


> Spend a few bucks more and get the GM-D9601 or Polk PA D1000.1 and run it at 2 ohms.


Dang. That Polk PA D1000.1 really is exactly what I'm searching for. Maybe if I can stretch the budget a little bit it'll happen. This thread has kind of steered me away from the GM-D9601 and GM-8601 because of my box's potential need of a subsonic filter.

Another surprising contender is the AudioPipe APCL15001D running at about $150. Specs below. I wanted to make sure to brand wasn't bo-bo... but it really looks like it's a lower/mid-range brand targeted towards enthusiasts on a budget.

...From what I see Pioneer on the other hand seems to be an excellent brand for head units but more of an "I want it go boom" Walmart brand at least on the lower end when it comes to amp.












rton20s said:


> I would also probably be looking at different subwoofers. JBL and Infinity usually offer very nice low cost options.


Unfortunately with the budget nothing I can find in those brands suits my needs. I see an Infinity REF1200S 12" SVC @ 250 RMS with switchable 2/4 ohms at about $100 a piece... but they're only 250 RMS... and a KAPPA 120.9W (I won't even go over specs on this one because it doesn't even come close to what I can spend)

JL Audio is the same way. The only way I could come close to the price is by choosing a 200 RMS sub.

I know that most of these products are only $30-70 more a piece, but I could easily stretch my budget from ($370 with Polk amp and 2 Kicker 2 ohm 400 RMS) or ($329 with Audiopipe amp and 2 Kicker 2 ohm 400 RMS) to well over $600 if I choose them.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

You're too worried about power handing numbers if you want my 2 cents. Are you willing to use just one sub and change your enclosure? Do you have to have 2? Because that opens even more doors for you. 

You could use a single Sundown SA 12 D4, that Polk above at 2 ohms, and a proper vented enclosure to give you something you'll probably like much more than 2 of them kicker things. Or maybe a pair of E12s if you just have to have 2? You could use those in the enclosure you have, but it will be peaky.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> ...You could use a single Sundown SA 12 D4...


*DISCLAIMER:* Sorry if I go full retard on this one.

I bought the box not too long before I started the thread. While they advertise returns, I'm sure it'd cost as much as the box to get it shipped back and they probably wouldn't appreciate the screw holes from the sub. So yeah... I need to limit my entire setup because of the cheap wooden blocks I chose to buy:worried:

Those 12's look pretty good for the price but I'm not really sure where the brand stacks up. And I'm not all up on brands because of the 'cool' factor... What I really want to know is if their products last and what their willing to do when they fail from normal use. It's hard to gauge because I'm still a noob.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> *DISCLAIMER:* Sorry if I go full retard on this one.
> 
> I bought the box not too long before I started the thread. While they advertise returns, I'm sure it'd cost as much as the box to get it shipped back and they probably wouldn't appreciate the screw holes from the sub. So yeah... I need to limit my entire setup because of the cheap wooden blocks I chose to buy:worried:
> 
> Those 12's look pretty good for the price but I'm not really sure where the brand stacks up. And I'm not all up on brands because of the 'cool' factor... What I really want to know is if their products last and what their willing to do when they fail from normal use. It's hard to gauge because I'm still a noob.


As far as Sundown goes, they have a great track record and have been around for a good while. They're a small American company based in North Carolina and are well-known and respected around here and in the car audio scene in general. They're especially well-known to the basshead crowd and as it looks like that's what you're seeking, there's that. As far as how they stack up to Kicker, it's not really fair to compare the 2. They offer a 2 year warranty on manufacturer's defects, so no worries there. I use one of their 10 inch SD3s and can say with certainty that it's easily the best sub I've ever owned. You can't go wrong with Sundown. It's good stuff.

I guess I'll add that it seems silly to make all your decisions based on that enclosure, but again you can plop a couple whatevers in there and if it doesn't meet your expectations then you can fix that down the road. It's just going to be difficult to find any 12 to perform to its potential in that space.

Edit, I don't know why I didn't mention this before, but have a look in the Classifieds here - great way to pick up some good gear at nice prices.  Maybe post a wanted ad. The last time I posted one for an amp, I got quite a few offers pretty quickly.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Yeah, that enclosure is going to be your systems Achilles' heel. It's just not going to allow most subs to perform well. 

There is the option of plugging the port good and tight to create a 3cuft sealed enclosure. Shouldn't be an issue finding 12's that will perform well in 1.5cuft sealed air space. 

I'll second that Sundown is a well regarded brand. While better known among the bass heads, as they make some nice subs that can take a hell of a beating, they do have some more SQ oriented drivers too.

The recommendation of buying used and/or placing a WTB add is not a bad idea, if you're willing to go such a route.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

A lot has changed in the past day. I sold my old phone and am I step closer to actually buying, which should be later this week.

rob feature: After a while you got my mouth watering with those 500 RMS 2 ohm Sundown's... but the budget's tight and there's absolutely no way I could afford them.

I found some 500 RMS DVC 2 ohm Kicker's that fit my budget (Under $100 each) but unfortunately I have no friggin clue how to wire them @ 2 ohms and there aren't many resources out there for stuff like this. *They only have 2 terminals and a 4 ohm to 1 ohm switch.*

Anybody have any idea out there as to how they'd be wired @ 2 ohms on a mono amp? Maybe I'm overthinking this... maybe I could wire each individually with the 1 ohm switch in place and connect to all 4 terminals. Would that equal 2 ohms? Both of those mono amps I have listed have 4 terminals.

*NOTE:* I've spent about 2 hours looking at wiring diagrams, but this frys my brain. Hopefully it's as simple as this:


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> A lot has changed in the past day. I sold my old phone and am I step closer to actually buying, which should be later this week.
> 
> rob feature: After a while you got my mouth watering with those 500 RMS 2 ohm Sundown's... but the budget's tight and there's absolutely no way I could afford them.
> 
> ...


No, that's parallel and will give you a .5 ohm load. Don't do that. Either leave them at 1 ohm and wire them in series or 4 ohm and wire them in parallel. Either way will give you 2 ohms at the amp.

Edit, err, just flip the switches to 4 ohm on the subs. I'm not used to just being able to flip a switch for that :deal2:


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Weigel21 said:


> Yeah, that enclosure is going to be your systems Achilles' heel. It's just not going to allow most subs to perform well.
> 
> There is the option of plugging the port good and tight to create a 3cuft sealed enclosure. Shouldn't be an issue finding 12's that will perform well in 1.5cuft sealed air space.
> 
> ...


Too late, but that would work out very nicely - a couple of EV12s sealed up in that thing could be something to write home about. I heard a couple sealed SA15s today and dayum! Just dayum!


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> Edit, err, just flip the switches to 4 ohm on the subs. I'm not used to just being able to flip a switch for that :deal2:


Dude I think you're right. Thanks so much for the help. I've spent hours looking at wiring diagrams but none of that helped. This diagram (specifically the image to the far left) reinforces everything you just said. Thanks again.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

*Purchased* the subs (Kicker 40CWR122 DVC 2-ohm 500 RMS) at $95.99 each at Best Buy with about $12-13 tax... And the amp (Audiopipe APCL15001D Mono Class D 950W @ 2 Ohm, 1500W @ 1 Ohm) on Amazon for $148.98. Also got a little 14 gauge AWG speaker wire. I would have gone for the Polk Audio amp but it didn't make enough sense for 500 RMS subs... but the Audiopipe amp doesn't quite have enough power to run them all the way up (which could be a good thing for turning dials with a noob like me)

Special shout out to *Weigel21* for keeping me focused on a subsonic filter in case there are issues with my box, *crispin* for getting me interested in Audiopipe, and *rob feature* for hanging through, giving guidance, and helping when I hit a brick wall or two.

It's worth noting that I probably would have gone for the Sundowns too... but I'd already gone over my original budget by $50-100 and they pushed it to the next limit. They did look beefy though.

Also Kicker told me it was fine to wire the subs *either way below* on that particular amp. So far I'm happy. I estimate that both the subs I have in there now are between 75 and 150 RMS... Just for LOL's amp = Lanzar Vibe 411 600 max watt 4 channel, With SVC (unknown ohms/RMS) Pioneer 12" and VR3 12" DVC (unknown ohms/RMS) wired in parallel on a different channel... But hey, I spent $70 on all of it.

Fist pound bros. Fist pound. Hopefully if I ever feel feel like I'm smart enough to contribute to the rest of this forum one day I will.


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## crispin (May 23, 2011)

Glad you picked up that AP amp, you will be happy with it.

I looked in the trunk of my wife's car the other day and the amp she has is actually the one you bought, it is the 1,500 watt unit.

I bought it used 4 years ago for $100 shipped. She has been playing it for 4 years on a pair of JL Audio 10w3's.

It will be plenty of power for you. You are still too focused on RMS ratings.

Also you better have a decent 4 gauge wire kit for the amp as it is power hungry.

Good luck and have fun!


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> *Purchased* the subs (Kicker 40CWR122 DVC 2-ohm 500 RMS) at $95.99 each at Best Buy with about $12-13 tax... And the amp (Audiopipe APCL15001D Mono Class D 950W @ 2 Ohm, 1500W @ 1 Ohm) on Amazon for $148.98. Also got a little 14 gauge AWG speaker wire. I would have gone for the Polk Audio amp but it didn't make enough sense for 500 RMS subs... but the Audiopipe amp doesn't quite have enough power to run them all the way up (which could be a good thing for turning dials with a noob like me)
> 
> Special shout out to *Weigel21* for keeping me focused on a subsonic filter in case there are issues with my box, *crispin* for getting me interested in Audiopipe, and *rob feature* for hanging through, giving guidance, and helping when I hit a brick wall or two.
> 
> ...


Good to hear you're getting things figured out & my posts were of some assistance. 

Yeah, you could wire those either way. One way you'll get a 2 ohm load. One way you'll get an 8 ohm load. 

Now take those Kickers back to the store & order the EV12s


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

I disagree, it'd be a 2 ohm load either way, the subs aren't wired in series in either photo from what I can see. 

Now, one difference however, is that one way will allow you to use less speaker wire, but will require larger gauge wire to support the lower load and higher power. 

and like I said before, Audiopipe's amplifiers that were tested did quite well on the amp dyno. Every one of them produced noticeably higher than rated power on the dynamic mode, which simulates music. 

While I've seen many get away without a proper SSF, I've seen pretty much an equal amount end up with blown subs. Now it "may" be that there were other factors, as "I" don't know how everything was setup and tuned, but one thing they had in common were they ran prefab ported enclosures and played a lot of Rap/Hip Hop with their systems bumping hard. 

While it may not be dire, why take the risk, many amps have SSF's these days without having to spend more.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Weigel21 said:


> I disagree, it'd be a 2 ohm load either way, the subs aren't wired in series in either photo from what I can see.


Totally. Good catch.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

crispin said:


> Glad you picked up that AP amp, you will be happy with it.


Yeah man, thanks again. I thought I might end up upgrading so I ran 4 gauge wire when I installed my aftermarket head unit about 2 weeks ago. I haven't had time to second guess my decision but I got this kit.

EDIT: I probably should have gone with OFC instead of CCA. My life is ruin :thumbsdown:



Weigel21 said:


> ...one way will allow you to use less speaker wire....


Most likely I'll wire them like the 1st pic where they're connected separately... just because in the box there is probably only 2-3 inches behind the vent and it seems like they could maybe flap around in there if I wire them together. I don't know though.



rob feature said:


> Now take those Kickers back to the store & order the EV12s


Lol. Over-budget. Look at it this way though: If I hadn't posted this thread most likely I would have gotten an 800 RMS amp and two 4-ohm 300 RMS DVC subs and wired them separately in parallel.


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

Most of the time when an amp is a mono block and has 4 speaker conections it doesn't matter how you hook them up. Because they are connected inside the amp. The 2 + and the 2- are the same. But check the manual to make sure.


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## Fizzy_Brown (Sep 20, 2016)

Same here, checking the manual will help you answer all your questions and to be very sure about it.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

vwguy383 said:


> ...check the manual to make sure.





Fizzy_Brown said:


> Same here, checking the manual will help you answer all your questions and to be very sure about it.


I checked the sub's manual online before ever posting anything about it, and verified that the amp only has one channel in it's manual. Unfortunately, there was nothing about wiring more than one sub on Kicker's part. Maybe the physical manual will be different but I have my doubts.

As far as I'm concerned the case is closed on that part though. Both Kicker and the guys on here have verified that it should work @ 2 ohms. I'll make sure to go back and check everything with an Ohmmeter out of *severe paranoia* but I'm sure it'll be fine.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> Lol. Over-budget. Look at it this way though: If I hadn't posted this thread most likely I would have gotten an 800 RMS amp and two 4-ohm 300 RMS DVC subs and wired them separately in parallel.


Not by much! If you paid $96 for each Kicker, then another $13 in tax, that's $109 each. They E12s can be had for $120, ship for free and no tax. That's a $22 difference all told. Just sayin


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> I'll make sure to go back and check everything with an Ohmmeter out of *severe paranoia* but I'm sure it'll be fine.


Not paranoid at all. That's wise. Just keep in mind that these ratings are nominal ratings and what you see with the meter may be a little off (1.8, 2.3, etc).


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> Not by much! If you paid $96 for each Kicker, then another $13 in tax, that's $109 each. They E12s can be had for $120, ship for free and no tax. That's a $22 difference all told. Just sayin


The difference would be roughly $35... Money's tight and other things just keep popping up on my plate. My car has other issues. An engine light is on and inspection is due this month. Maybe it would have been smarter to save up and wait another month but I've lived enough life to know some other strange/unexpected bill will pop up by then... and would probably even cut into what I already have saved.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

FML. The subs came in today. Shipping was lightning fast... almost as if they launched them here in a fcuking potato gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it look like somebody tried to drill the screws without a sleeve and slipped off in the 1st pic? The screw holes in general look a little worn too.

They were supposed to be new. This is Best Buy we're talking about.










*EDIT:* Took them to my local Best Buy and they told me they only had one in stock... and that it didn't look like there were any more available anywhere. I told them that I'd just replace the worst one and be on my way. The guy who went to get the sub accidentally came back with a 43CWR122 (the newer model) but once that was done they asked if I'd just take pair of those instead at no additional cost. Both Crutchfield and Best Buy have them listed at $149.99 ($108 difference without tax... POW! right in the kisser) each so it all worked out. I've checked them and they're obviously brand new... and noticed that they came with stickers, a manual and screw covers, where the first ones didn't. The new ones have 4 terminals so I really don't have to fret about wiring anymore. I'm happy now.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Told you not to buy the Kickers. :laugh:


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## mirkinator (Feb 22, 2016)

Great opportunity to fix a mistake and go with the Sundown's. Even if it means waiting a little bit.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Definitely have been mounted, removed and returned. Seems the previous buyer knew not how to properly install them, but was wise enough to return them. Now you can skip on the install/remove part and jump straight to the return. look at this as a favor for letting you avoid going through the trouble of installing them only to dislike them, then having to either suffer through using them until you could afford better or removing them immediately and going on the hunt once again. 

I know you're not looking to spend any more, but given how focused you are on power handling, those Sundown's "should" be a much better setup. Never really heard a whole lot about the E series. 

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> The difference would be roughly $35... Money's tight and other things just keep popping up on my plate. My car has other issues. An engine light is on and inspection is due this month. Maybe it would have been smarter to save up and wait another month but I've lived enough life to know some other strange/unexpected bill will pop up by then... and would probably even cut into what I already have saved.


Aha - thought you meant $13 tax each. That does seem a bit steep. Still - $35 is beans considering this will be something you plan to enjoy for years to come. Agreed with an above post - perfect time to return them. But you seem content with what you have, so my nudging is done. Enjoy yer new sounds and do stick around. This place is chock full of good reading.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> FML. The subs came in today. Shipping was lightning fast... almost as if they launched them here in a fcuking potato gun.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it look like somebody tried to drill the screws without a sleeve and slipped off in the 1st pic? The screw holes in general look a little worn too.
> 
> They were supposed to be new. This is Best Buy we're talking about.


WFT I scored a 12W3V3 off Craigslist for almost free in better condition than that :laugh:


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I know your focus isn't SQ, but this is a KILLER deal. I wouldn't doubt that they would get louder than the Kickers as well. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hot-deals/300754-nvx-xqw12-subwoofers.html#post4132898

I would also consider something like the Alpine SWS-12 or even the other awesome deal Sonic has on a pair of 8 Ohm Image Dynamics CTX 12s @ $90 for the pair!


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## mirkinator (Feb 22, 2016)

rton20s said:


> I know your focus isn't SQ, but this is a KILLER deal. I wouldn't doubt that they would get louder than the Kickers as well.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hot-deals/300754-nvx-xqw12-subwoofers.html#post4132898
> 
> I would also consider something like the Alpine SWS-12 or even the other awesome deal Sonic has on a pair of 8 Ohm Image Dynamics CTX 12s @ $90 for the pair!




I just seen your other thread and was going to mention it here. 

How would you compare these NVXs to the Sundowns?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mirkinator said:


> I just seen your other thread and was going to mention it here.
> 
> How would you compare these NVXs to the Sundowns?


I've not heard either, so it wouldn't be fair to compare. And there isn't much data on the 2016 NVX model. By reputation and pricing, I would personally go for the NVX over the Sundowns.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rton20s said:


> I know your focus isn't SQ, but this is a KILLER deal. I wouldn't doubt that they would get louder than the Kickers as well.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hot-deals/300754-nvx-xqw12-subwoofers.html#post4132898
> 
> I would also consider something like the Alpine SWS-12 or even the other awesome deal Sonic has on a pair of 8 Ohm Image Dynamics CTX 12s @ $90 for the pair!


I probably would have considered those NVX's hard had you listed them a day or two earlier. As for Alpine, I cant really trust the competence of a company that's never seen the SD card logo before.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> As for Alpine, I cant really trust the competence of a company that's never seen the SD card logo before.
> 
> [/IMG]


The horror! 

Seriously - Alpine makes some nice gear. I've heard mixed reviews about those S-type subs, but the Rs are pretty sweet. Good amps too. Good head units. Great track record. Great (IME) domestic service.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

FlossBandit said:


> I probably would have considered those NVX's hard had you listed them a day or two earlier. As for Alpine, I cant really trust the competence of a company that's never seen the SD card logo before.


Seriously?









Yet you're all about the Kickers, despite what everyone else here with more experience has told you.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

Ya gotta hand it to Kicker's marketing team though :deal2:


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> Ya gotta hand it to Kicker's marketing team though :deal2:


Yeah, I have been kinda sucking on Kicker's teet. What's funny about all this is about 2 days before the thread I'd never heard of Kicker. I hadn't really ever paid attention to what was in people's trunks. The thing that really got me with them was the fact that they responded to my questions crazy fast.

It reminded me of a computer company I'd dealt with called EVGA. One time I broke a fan in one of my graphics cards with an air compressor (user error) and they replaced both cards for free (even the one that wasn't broken)... and sent the replacements before I ever shipped the broken ones.

Companies that bend over and break their backs to make a happy customer are always what I'm looking for no matter what product they sell.

Audiopipe... on the other hand... Lol... We'll see where that goes. They've sent me nothing but broken English after about 2 days of waiting and it always seems like there's a communication issue.


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## crispin (May 23, 2011)

FlossBandit said:


> Audiopipe... on the other hand... Lol... We'll see where that goes. They've sent me nothing but broken English after about 2 days of waiting and it always seems like there's a communication issue.


What are you trying to talk to Audiopipe about? 

Their products are retardedly simple.

What question do you have?

Audiopipe USA is based out of Miami and they speak Spanish mostly.

Do you understand value? 

Some companies focus on value so they have to cut out marketing and customer service. I am fine with those companies.

Some companies charge too much for inferior products so they have plenty left over for marketing and customer service ie. Kicker


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

crispin said:


> What are you trying to talk to Audiopipe about?
> 
> Their products are retardedly simple.
> 
> What question do you have?


I was trying to understand how/if ohms were affected by connecting speakers to different terminals on a mono amp. I wanted to know if I could wire two DVC 2-ohm subs in series, connect them on separate terminals, and still get 2 ohms final impedance... because the original Kicker's I'd purchased had that confusing switch. They sent a standard 2 ohm series-parallel wiring diagram with the speakers connected together, which showed they didn't get what I was talking about.

*NOTE:* Wiring is done at this point. Because Best Buy replaced the original speakers I was able to use a basic wiring diagram. I played it safe and went series-parallel @ 2 ohms.

And, yeah... the value thing was a good reason why I went with them... That, and this guy's reaction (Link: 15001D Dyno Test YouTube @ 7:08) is great when testing dynamic power @ 1 ohm. Everything else seemed to work as advertised.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Well, you say wiring is done, so I probably don't need to day anything, though I will. Yes, two DVC subs each wired in series for a 4 ohms load connected to that amplifier with it's terminals wired in parallel would drop the seen load to 2 ohms final. 

So now you have some different Kicker subs with a more traditional terminal connection for each voice coil? You double checked the wiring to be 100% sure it;s 2 ohms final correct? I ask as Kicker tended to have it's connectors kinda weird in which there were (4) single terminals speaked equally around the sub, so some people had issues figuring out which + and - terminals where for what voice coil. Two had a white dote, two didn't for identification purposes. 

With the amplifier you have and the subs you chose, you are wiring for 2 ohm final, so it doesn't so much matter what the amplifier can do at 1 ohm. At two ohms, the amplifier was capable of exceeding rated power in dynamic mode (simulating music), Certified and Uncertified it did decent, though not quite rated power, but who goes around playing test tones all the time.


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

Weigel21 said:


> You double checked the wiring to be 100% sure it;s 2 ohms final correct?...(con't)...With the amplifier you have and the subs you chose, you are wiring for 2 ohm final, so it doesn't so much matter what the amplifier can do at 1 ohm.


Yep. They're tested and resting at 1.9 ohms. I did notice when shopping around that some had terminals in a square pattern, but mine are spaced on either side on the sub. (Link to the replacement subs Best Buy gave me)

And yeah, simulation probably isn't everything. These subs are rated at 500 RMS each and the amp is supposed to be rated at 950 RMS @ 2 ohms so that leaves me a little room (as a total noob) to to play with the gain. His video reflected that the numbers were relatively close @ 2 ohms and that's all I really had to go off of when making the decision.

From video:
certified run: 891 @ 2 ohms
uncertified run: 948 @ 2 ohms
dynamic run: 1085 @ 2 ohms

The amp should be in today. It was supposed to come yesterday but Amazon Prime failed me hard.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> (Link to the replacement subs Best Buy gave me)


..._The Spiralead tinsel emits powerful sound, while ribbed Santoprene surround produces deep, clear, chest-thumping bass notes..._


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## crispin (May 23, 2011)

rob feature said:


> ..._The Spiralead tinsel emits powerful sound, while ribbed Santoprene surround produces deep, clear, chest-thumping bass notes..._




OMG - what a joke


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

rob feature said:


> ..._The Spiralead tinsel emits powerful sound, while ribbed Santoprene surround produces deep, clear, chest-thumping bass notes..._


The specs are probably better on Crutchfield's site. I wouldn't trust Best Buy's J. Peterman catalog write-up. (Link to 43CWR122 replacement subs on Crutchfield's site)


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

I got the amp and my first experience with it wasn't great... but I'm pretty sure the battery just isn't fully charged.

*Special Circumstances:* Since I started this thread, the serpentine belt in my car broke and it isn't running right now. I've still gone down and played with the radio regularly and left the key on by accident, killing the battery. I've fully charged the battery since, but haven't driven it.

After I hooked up the amp, I left all of the knobs turned all the way down except for the gain (it was about 1/4 up). I planned to tweak them once I could confirm it was playing.

I played (Link: Big Boi - You Ain't No DJ ft. Yelawolf YouTube) and it made it through 95% of the song before the bass started cutting out. By the second song only about 40% of the bass notes were coming through (1 second on, 1 second off) and I was watching the Power and Protect lights toggle on and off as bass came in/went out.

About 2 minutes after that I noticed that some of the dash instrument panel lights in my car were coming on when the bass hit including the brake lights and others. After that the stereo's power started to loop on and off.

It's gotta be the battery in my head. I won't really know until the car runs. My brother's coming over to help with the belt later tonight and probably most of tomorrow.

Here's how it's hooked up. Looks like a pretty standard job. And If you're wondering what's going on with the RCA's... they had an in-line turn on remote wire built into them.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

FlossBandit said:


> The specs are probably better on Crutchfield's site. I wouldn't trust Best Buy's J. Peterman catalog write-up. (Link to 43CWR122 replacement subs on Crutchfield's site)


Those areren't specs. That's word salad. 

Yes, Crutchfield does church it up a bit. They even throw in stuff like _ported box volume: 1.75 - 2.25 cu. ft._


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Dude. Quit trying to play with your stereo in a car that doesn't even run. Hooked up to a charger or not, you're just going to kill your battery and starve your amp for power. 

Get the serpentine belt fixed. If you can't afford to replace a serpentine belt there is absolutely no reason you should be spending money on stereo equipment to fill up your trunk.


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## crispin (May 23, 2011)

So you were running the low pass on 40 hz on a car that was off with no voltmeter on an unknown charged battery?

Yea sounds like the amp is the problem, you should return it asap (along with the rest of your equipment)

You are something


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## FlossBandit (Sep 14, 2016)

crispin said:


> So you were running the low pass on 40 hz on a car that was off with no voltmeter on an unknown charged battery?
> 
> Yea sounds like the amp is the problem, you should return it asap (along with the rest of your equipment)
> 
> You are something


Yep. Still learning how it works after <2 minutes of use. I know it just cuts off higher frequencies but never got around to turning the dial.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

FlossBandit said:


> Yep. Still learning how it works after <2 minutes of use. I know it just cuts off higher frequencies but never got around to turning the dial.
> 
> And don't worry. Somebody in another forum already told me to microwave the amp. Fingers crossed! Haven't had time to hook it up since it's been microwaved. Is there supposed to be black stuff here?


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Nope Nope Nope...not gonna put up with that.


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