# Mass loaded vinyl



## syncal1 (Aug 11, 2009)

This may be way out there but could abs substitue as mlv? Could anyone with experince with mlv describe the findings? What other products were used in conjunction to mlv? Did you get it from a local source? Does it go along way or do you need a [email protected]#t load? How was the install? Any tips for a first timer. Such as size, overlap, seams, adhesive etc... 
Anthony


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

No, light weight plastic is not a substitute for MASS loaded vinyl. Also, it is not flexible and wont work well for most car surface treatment.

It does not stretch - you need the amount you need to cover your intended area.

Seam overlap is not much, just enough to seal it together. 1/4 - 1/2 inch is fine

Go read up on sounddeadenershowdown.com for some info. A seach here on Mass loaded vinyl will also give you about 4 pages of results to read over.


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## syncal1 (Aug 11, 2009)

El_chupo_ Thanks for your reply. I have read thier site. I was looking for an unbias opinion of some sort. Along with something to watch out for that may arise during installs. Also what is a rule of thumb size considering your carpet, door pannels and head linner will need to be reinstalled. I also was told because of shipping costs I should look for a local source by sounddeadnershowdown.com themselvs. So I'm hurry up and waiting for someone in So Cal to chime in and throw down a review of x and y shop and price. Considering not all adhesive is created equal a review there would be helpful as well. Thanks again
Anthony


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## drtool (Nov 26, 2007)

I butt my seams, damp or other cdl to seal the seams. vb3 for trany humps and wheel wells. You have to test fit, sometimes I use clay to see how much space I have to work with.


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## twosevennine (Jun 30, 2009)

It heavy and bulky. Nothing hardly sticks to it, and its not fun to work with. If you do not care about adding weight to your ride its good stuff to block noise if you cover the entire surface. Find a local sources im sure theres plenty up there in Bakes area Super Soundproofing has good prices and i think they had a warehouse up there. Make sure you use MLV contact cement...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

for commercial noise abatement needs, we will sometimes look to Acoustiblok as it has a better octave band transmission loss than standard MLV. SoundSense has their NoiseOut2 product that we are currently reviewing as an "equal". 

Soundproofing * Materials & Acoustic Panels


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Definitely take a look at Super Sound Proofing. It's a slightly lower grade MLV, but that shouldn't make any difference once it is installed in your car. 1 lb/ft² of limp mass is 1 lb/ft². If you can pick it up, you'll save yourself $50-$100. One warning. They will try to convince you to buy 1 lb/ft² MLV as a composite with CCF or OCF. This may or may not be what you want. They sell plain MLV and that's what I'd want.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

Like they mentioned, it sucks to work with, especially vertical; I cant imagine the roof. I dont think I would even try it on my roof. Most of your road noise is exactly that - so stick with floors, doors, firewalls, wheel wells, etc. 
For the roof I would probably do some CLD and maybe a layer of foam around anything that is added on to the headliner to prevent any rattles of things, such as grab handles, overhead lights against the roof, etc.

A local spot is best, and even better if you can split it with another person.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

el_chupo_ said:


> Like they mentioned, it sucks to work with, especially vertical; I cant imagine the roof. I dont think I would even try it on my roof. Most of your road noise is exactly that - so stick with floors, doors, firewalls, wheel wells, etc.
> For the roof I would probably do some CLD and maybe a layer of foam to prevent any rattles of things like grab handles, overhead lights against the roof, etc.
> 
> A local spot is best, and even better if you can split it with another person.


You want a barrier between your ears and noise that's coming at you in a straight line. Aside from being right next to a semi or an occasional low flying plane, there just aren't many sources of airborne noise coming at you from above. Add the difficulty of installation and the negative consequences of adding weight that far above the vehicle's center of gravity and you'd really need a good reason to do it.

Some vehicles desperately need vibration damper on the roof, others are quite good stock. As you say, a layer of CCF will help with rattles and a little bit with the high frequencies prevalent in air turbulence noise. I generally consider a layer of CCF in the roof to be the lowest value treatment that is worth considering.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Some vehicles desperately need vibration damper on the roof, others are quite good stock. As you say, a layer of CCF will help with rattles and a little bit with the high frequencies prevalent in air turbulence noise. I generally consider a layer of CCF in the roof to be the lowest value treatment that is worth considering.


I did not mean a full layer, thanks for pointing that out. I meant a layer underneath things like the grab handles or overhead lights. That is all I use it for anymore, stopping individual rattles.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

more importantly, the only way a limp mass barrier is going to provide any real benefit is if it's decoupled from rigid surfaces. if you glue it down to the floor you won't see much benefit since it is rigidly coupled. instead, if you put a layer of foam between the barrier and the surface, now it can absorb a lot more sound energy by "moving". this is why you see products like Luxury Liner use foam AND a mass loaded barrier. 

Additionally, not all MLV are created equal. "viscoelastic" is the word to look for.

also, a continuous, solid layer is key to blocking unwanted road noise. just like the crack underneath a door, if there is a gap, sound will come right on through and the effective transmission loss is greatly reduced. 

i wouldn't use a MLV to stop rattles, use a thin layer of foam for that. foam is lighter and easier to use/adhere.


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## syncal1 (Aug 11, 2009)

WOW this is the type of feed back I was looking for. Good [email protected]#T everyone. Thanks alot! If you were to form a layer system would you use vibration control 1st. 2nd add a layer of ccf. Final layer of mlv? Would mlv be the final layer? Also considering overall thickness is a concern here in reguards that stock equipment has to reinstalled what how thick is thick enough?
Thanks again everyone
Anthony


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

That's the correct sequence although I treat doors a little differently. My preference is to use 1/4" CCF underfoot and other places where you need the thickness to control rattles. 1/8" CCF where space is tight.


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## syncal1 (Aug 11, 2009)

Rad, thanks Rudeboy. Thanks for your time.
Anthony


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

while closed cell foam offers better moisture resistance and is firmer, open cell foam absorbs sound much, much better. 

given the choice between the two - i'll choose open cell foam every time (if moisture isn't a factor). and i'll choose fiberglass over foam whenever i can.

overall thickness doesn't have to be that much. deadener and the MLV aren't that thick. the main thickness adder is the foam. you can't have too much IMO. 1/2" - 1" would be sufficient.


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## 62Lincoln (Aug 27, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> That's the correct sequence although I treat doors a little differently. My preference is to use 1/4" CCF underfoot and other places where you need the thickness to control rattles. 1/8" CCF where space is tight.


How do you manage the transition from the floor to a vertical wall? I'm thinking of the area in my vehicle where the passenger and driver floors transition to the wheel well area on the sides. I really want to get as much barrier there as possible, but some of the angles don't lend themselves to overlapping the MLV. Thoughts?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

you'll just need to get down there and experiment. you can't plan everything out when working with this stuff. test, test, test.

the manufacturer of the MLV you purchase should offer a product to address non-overlapping seams.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

62Lincoln said:


> How do you manage the transition from the floor to a vertical wall? I'm thinking of the area in my vehicle where the passenger and driver floors transition to the wheel well area on the sides. I really want to get as much barrier there as possible, but some of the angles don't lend themselves to overlapping the MLV. Thoughts?


You can almost always cut pleats into the MLV and get it to follow even very complex curves. It doesn't have to be pretty, but you can make it pretty if you want to. Here's what one of my customers did for the quarter panels in an older Porsche. He's got a layer of CCF and Velcro patches behind the MLV.


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## Chrisjbell (Oct 19, 2009)

I saw a couple of references to this in posts, but having just bought a roll of MLV I am still feeling the pain of shipping costs. The stuff is _heavy_ and has to be truck shipped. Quite pricey, and you also need to keep in mind that these guys aren't set up for residential delivery and often won't come to a house at all. I had to meet my driver for delivery - and he was a nice guy to do it. 

I did look locally, couldn't find it. I'm sure it's available in my area - just didn't locate it.


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## syncal1 (Aug 11, 2009)

What your pointing out seems to the problem. I have found a place that sells it and allows for pick up, How ever is only 4 1/2 hours away from my house. I dont feel good about spending 9 hours in my truck for it. I think more vibration and ccf here I come hahaha


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

It really depends on the size of the roll. 270 lb rolls do have to go freight, but UPS's maximum is 150 lbs and I ship rolls that weight 70, 95 and 145 lbs via UPS to residences all the time. The drivers usually aren't thrilled with the heavier rolls, but they deliver them. Freight to a residence can definitely get "interesting".


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

What kind of car are you working on? What are you hoping to accomplish? There have been many good tips given already but it might help to know what you're actually up against.

- D


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

RUDEBOY,

Do you have any other pics of that Porsche? How well did
the stuff work that the owner used in his? These cars have
ZERO effort spent on making the car quiet. Were you able
to take a ride in the above pictured car, and your impressions?

Thanks


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> RUDEBOY,
> 
> Do you have any other pics of that Porsche? How well did
> the stuff work that the owner used in his? These cars have
> ...


Don't have any other pics and the owner is a long way away. He's taking his time with the project. If you are asking more generally if I have experience with the impact a barrier makes on cars with severe noise problems, the answer is yes. I've had several customers with Corvettes, including a few Z06's. Many other cars that are built solely with performance in mind, including an '09 Nissa GT-R where the only concession to noise control was a Styrofoam block under each seat. I've had a lot of experience with highly modified GM Kappa platform cars (Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky) from working with a local owner's club. Mustangs, Camaros, a variety of noisy trucks, you can pretty much name it. The difference between installing vibration damper and a barrier and just installing vibration damper is astonishing.

I'll be working with the owner on a lifted, turbo diesel H1 Hummer between Christmas and New Years which is the noisiest, most unpleasant vehicle I've ever been in. It'll be very interesting to hear how that turns out. I'm always a little skeptical when it comes to really problematic vehicles, but so far that skepticism has been unfounded. There are obvious limits - knobby tires are the most difficult to deal with, but I tried to talk the first Solstice owner I worked with out of the project. This thing had a turbo, no cat, a very aggressive exhaust sound and I don't even remember what else. It's a convertible to boot. He insisted. He had been modding and modding, making the thing noisier and noisier until his wife would get in the car anymore. After 2 days the difference was amazing. At one point we were blasting up the highway at some stupid speed, having a conversation at normal speaking volume - with the top down. His wife called me a few days later to tell me how pleased she was with the change. I believe that men can convince themselves that the project they just sweated over for days was worth the effort - no matter how it really turned out. Wives aren't inclined to play that way


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Rudeboy,

In an earlier post you said some vehicles desperately need their roofs deadened. What vehicles came to mind? 

To help narrow down the list, I have a 7th generation(03) Civic . Does my car fall into this category?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

fish said:


> Rudeboy,
> 
> In an earlier post you said some vehicles desperately need their roofs deadened. What vehicles came to mind?
> 
> To help narrow down the list, I have a 7th generation(03) Civic . Does my car fall into this category?


Your car almost defines the category  The first time I was driving a 7th gen Civic and it started to rain I thought I was under attack. It was actually a 7th gen that got me interested in sound deadening in the first place. If you tap on the outside of a car's roof and it makes anything but a dull thud, it is a good candidate. The roof is a very large panel, very close to your head. If it's resonant it's going to be a problem.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> Your car almost defines the category  The first time I was driving a 7th gen Civic and it started to rain I thought I was under attack. It was actually a 7th gen that got me interested in sound deadening in the first place. If you tap on the outside of a car's roof and it makes anything but a dull thud, it is a good candidate. The roof is a very large panel, very close to your head. If it's resonant it's going to be a problem.


LOL... thanks, that experience ^seems like a good enough reason to try your products.

One more question, I had an audio shop finish up the Raamat/Ensolite application that I started (cold weather) on the floorboard. From your experiences, do you think I will have enough room to still add a layer of MLV?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

fish said:


> LOL... thanks, that experience ^seems like a good enough reason to try your products.
> 
> One more question, I had an audio shop finish up the Raamat/Ensolite application that I started (cold weather) on the floorboard. From your experiences, do you think I will have enough room to still add a layer of MLV?


There will be room. I'd also try add at least an additional 1/8" layer of CCF in the foot wells to decouple your feet from the floor. You don't want the foam to flatten out under the weight.


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## The J (Oct 27, 2009)

Out of curiosity, how much of an advantage is there to using 1/4" CCF vs. 1/8" CCF in a given area? Also, if putting MLV above the headliner is not recommended, what would be a good way to reduce noise from wind turbulence over the roof?

I ask because I have an 02 Ford Escape (noisy!) that I went through with eDead v3 and foam this past summer and I'm not very satisfied with the work-to-results ratio. I didn't know any better then, so I'm trying to do proper research now so that I can do better this upcoming spring.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

The J said:


> Out of curiosity, how much of an advantage is there to using 1/4" CCF vs. 1/8" CCF in a given area? Also, if putting MLV above the headliner is not recommended, what would be a good way to reduce noise from wind turbulence over the roof?
> 
> I ask because I have an 02 Ford Escape (noisy!) that I went through with eDead v3 and foam this past summer and I'm not very satisfied with the work-to-results ratio. I didn't know any better then, so I'm trying to do proper research now so that I can do better this upcoming spring.


You don't want to think of CCF as a noise absorber or blocker. It is an isolator. Putting it between hard objects will stop rattles. Putting it between the substrate and a barrier layer will improve the performance of the barrier layer. Choosing a thickness depends on the space available and what you are trying to do. When decoupling a barrier when the layers are going to be subject to compression, like in the foot wells, I try to use 1/4" CCF. I usually apply MLV and CCF between the inner door skin and the trim panel, with the CCF facing the trim panel. I try to use 1/4" there too, since the effectiveness of the application requires that the trim panel compresses the CCF to minimize rattles and buzzes in the trim panel and between the trim panel and the inner skin.

In my experience, just applying vibration damper will make an audible difference but it won't be satisfactory for noise reduction. Adding a layer of CCF may make some difference in the highest frequencies, but that's not where most of the noise is.

Vibration damper on the roof should significantly reduce air turbulence noise. Since this noise has more high frequency components than other vehicle noise, a layer of some sort of foam may help. If you've done both already and still aren't satisfied, you may need a barrier. I'd do some analysis of where the noise is coming from first. There is a good chance that you will not be able to get rid of it completely. Some vehicle design characteristics can't be overcome, but the more you reduce the impact of other noise sources, the better chance you have of identifying the ones that remain.


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## The J (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks for the info! The door holes in the Escape are large enough that I'm pretty sure I could get CCF and MLV on the outermost door skin (the metal closest to the outside of the car) with not too much trouble. If I can do that, would that work well? If possible, what I'd like to do is put the CCF and MLV on the outer skin and then put CCF on the inside of the plastic door panel to stop rattles. Putting the CCF on the door panel rather than the metal skin would allow me easier access to all the screws and such in the door for easier maintenance (I made fiberglass panels to seal the door holes, so covering them in CCF would make it harder to remove those panels when needed).

I do need to figure out exactly where air turbulence noise is coming from. Using the eDead stuff did actually help quite a bit--especially in the rain--so I'm not really too worried about the roof.

Thanks again for the info.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

The J said:


> Thanks for the info! The door holes in the Escape are large enough that I'm pretty sure I could get CCF and MLV on the outermost door skin (the metal closest to the outside of the car) with not too much trouble. If I can do that, would that work well? If possible, what I'd like to do is put the CCF and MLV on the outer skin and then put CCF on the inside of the plastic door panel to stop rattles. Putting the CCF on the door panel rather than the metal skin would allow me easier access to all the screws and such in the door for easier maintenance (I made fiberglass panels to seal the door holes, so covering them in CCF would make it harder to remove those panels when needed).
> 
> I do need to figure out exactly where air turbulence noise is coming from. Using the eDead stuff did actually help quite a bit--especially in the rain--so I'm not really too worried about the roof.
> 
> Thanks again for the info.


If you can get to the outer skin, it's a very good choice. Arguments can be made for both the outer and inner skin, but if you add a layer of CCF between the inner skin and the trim panel you'll pretty much have the best of both options. The fiberglass access hole covers will help a lot too.


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## JSmithJ (May 2, 2011)

Even though this thread is over 2 years old, there's some great info in it--thanks all.


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## hybridspl (May 9, 2008)

JSmithJ said:


> Even though this thread is over 2 years old, there's some great info in it--thanks all.


X2. I just read the whole thread and there is definitely some helpful tips!


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