# Can I Use Any Sub As A Free-Air?



## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

as long as it fits??


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

what sub


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

not really. while you can put any sub in a free air configuration wether or not it sounds good is another story


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

the previous owner had 2 cut outs in the rear deck, and had 2 sets of power chords to the trunk for the amp, although he only left 1 for me lol, so im guessing he had a pretty good system. 

i was wondering if i fill up one of those spots with like an 8" or 10" cause i only want some background bass, not too much, cause my dynaudio 6.5"s in the door just dont cut it.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

If you have Dynaudio in the doors, don't ya think it would be worthy to find at least one decent IB driver for the car? 

npDang, the originator of this site said that you CAN use any driver you wish as long as you have a subsonic to control over excursion and EQ to fix what's wrong in the non-IB design.. 

While it's more ideal to have something designed for it, if you have the processing, you can do what you wish..

Also IB is NOT "free air" 

Free air was a lamens term placed on IB woofers so the mullets boys in Monties could understand what they were getting.. most of them where placed in an unsealed trunk and sounded like a monkey beating on a cardboard box with a banana.. 

IB requires you to separate front wave of the driver from rear... overall sealing isn't of the hugest concern out away from the driver, but preventing local cancellation of all frequencies IS..


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

mrzapco said:


> as long as it fits??


Not really. 

A lot of woofers will destroy themselves if you beat on them. Ideally, you'd want something with a very good/stiff suspension as an enclosure acts as sorts of a spring to control speaker movement. Since there isn't an enclosure, per se, it's all up to the suspension of the woofer.

I'm not sure what T/S parameters will tell you if a driver is capable of an IB setup. 

On power handling; typically you can divide that in 1/2. You'll reach the mechanical limit of a woofer quicker than you will the thermal limit. So you have to cut down on the power a bit. This isn't a hard rule, it's best to call the vendor and ask a tech so you don't have to be swapping out equipment often. 

I've run a few IB setups in the past; total system power never exceeded 400w though (one was a 100w system). I've also seen/heard/installed a setup with a pair of 12's with 1Kw flogging the woofers...damn near hit the brown note.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Bluliner said:


> Not really.
> 
> A lot of woofers will destroy themselves if you beat on them. Ideally, you'd want something with a very good/stiff suspension as an enclosure acts as sorts of a spring to control speaker movement. Since there isn't an enclosure, per se, it's all up to the suspension of the woofer.
> 
> ...


I thought that about the suspension a while ago bit it doesn't seem to be that way. While my 12w6 sounded great ib with a stiff suspension, the tempest x with it's slightly softer suspension was too bottom heavy without much top end or detail and my Acoustic Elegance IB15s have a very soft suspension and are the single best subwoofer I've heard on every type of music. Suspension compliance as determined by pushing on the cone, nothing scientific about it. I think in this case the motor provides most of the cone control. The ae subs were so soft I thought something was wrong with them. What parameter shows suspension compliance?


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> I thought that about the suspension a while ago bit it doesn't seem to be that way. While my 12w6 sounded great ib with a stiff suspension, the tempest x with it's slightly softer suspension was too bottom heavy without much top end or detail and my Acoustic Elegance IB15s have a very soft suspension and are the single best subwoofer I've heard on every type of music. Suspension compliance as determined by pushing on the cone, nothing scientific about it. I think in this case the motor provides most of the cone control. The ae subs were so soft I thought something was wrong with them. What parameter shows suspension compliance?


That's interesting about the AE sub you have. I've never heard of that vendor before; do they do home audio? 

A lot of car woofers made for small boxes & higher power handling have firm suspensions b/c people tend to abuse them for hours on end. Home audio, not so much. 

Curious, how much power were you sending that big 15"? Do you still have that JL lying around?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

I came sooooo close to pulling the trigger on a pair of IB15's when they where easy to get... I wish I had... 

I was worried the basket would hit the floor of my install... so I went another route... still wish I had gotten a pair (when they where like 130$ea or something crazy)


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Bluliner said:


> That's interesting about the AE sub you have. I've never heard of that vendor before; do they do home audio?
> 
> A lot of car woofers made for small boxes & higher power handling have firm suspensions b/c people tend to abuse them for hours on end. Home audio, not so much.
> 
> Curious, how much power were you sending that big 15"? Do you still have that JL lying around?


The AE IB15 is one of the best if not THE best IB subwoofer out there. If I had to guess, I have maybe 100 watts to each one for normal loud listening. I have to measure one of these days but when I switched to these subs I turned the gain on the amp down to maybe 1/8th of the way where it was 3/4 of the way up with my Tempest 15" sub and my two 12W6s in a box. Amp is rated for 1,000 watts at 2 ohms and I'm only using a fraction of that for very loud listening. Very, very little power is required to get loud. I believe it takes around 250 watts to hit xmax at the lowest frequencies and they can handle 500 thermally at higher frequencies.

They do make home subs. The IB15 is the home version, the IB15a is the automotive version tailored for a car's trunk since it's not a true infinite baffle environment. This is the best sounding car sub setup I've ever heard in every category bar none. 

I still have the 12W6, it's been for sale now for a couple weeks.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I came sooooo close to pulling the trigger on a pair of IB15's when they where easy to get... I wish I had...
> 
> I was worried the basket would hit the floor of my install... so I went another route... still wish I had gotten a pair (when they where like 130$ea or something crazy)


Those IDQ 15s sound really good too. I heard them in Neel's car. In fact that's the day I made the decision to go IB with some large subs. Before that, I was one of those that though big subs were muddy and boomy and IB was sloppy. After hearing the IDQs it changed everything I thought about big subs and IB.


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## Inferno333 (Mar 29, 2006)

AE has more IB15 drivers ready to be built.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> Those IDQ 15s sound really good too. I heard them in Neel's car. In fact that's the day I made the decision to go IB with some large subs. Before that, I was one of those that though big subs were muddy and boomy and IB was sloppy. After hearing the IDQs it changed everything I thought about big subs and IB.


Yeah, I expect to be perfectly happy.. lol.. thank you for the confirmation though.. If I could get past my mechanical problems, I might finish this pig up... 

Cheers..!!


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Yeah, I expect to be perfectly happy.. lol.. thank you for the confirmation though.. If I could get past my mechanical problems, I might finish this pig up...
> 
> Cheers..!!


Oh, I thought you had them up and running already.... Neel's setup sounded great and I spent 1.5 hours listening to his setup. We played just about every type of music and they did it all well. Went very low and very musical. I thought my setup sounded good up until that point. His setup is what made me decide to change everything about mine. I just about impulse bought those subs but didn't have the money at the time.

This is the one in question:

Acura TL Sub Install - Install Logs - Car Audio and Electronics


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

the install is close, cars been plagued with mechanical problems... I just got 50mi on my supposedly freshly rebuilt transmission and it seems the input shaft seal is leaking..


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> the install is close, cars been plagued with mechanical problems... I just got 50mi on my supposedly freshly rebuilt transmission and it seems the input shaft seal is leaking..


Lol. Trust me, I know what that's like. My GN just about put me in the crazy house a few times when I was younger. As soon as you fix one thing, another pops up and another and another..... Hopefully the oil doesn't get to your clutch.

Looking forward to your review on another set of IDQ15s, they're going to sound great.


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

lol i dont know what is going on, not too much of an audio guy


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

mrzapco said:


> lol i dont know what is going on, not too much of an audio guy


You can use any sub IB. It may or may not sound good. Some are made specifically for IB use. Some are not but still sound really good. Some will sound like crap. There are certain parameters that will help guide you to which ones have a chance of sounding good but as I recently found out, they can look good on paper and still not sound that good IB. 

I can tell you that a 10" Image Dynamics IDQ will sound good, Image Dynamics IDMax will sound good and a 10W6 will sound very good in that configuration. There are probably cheaper options that will also sound very good but those I know from personal experience to sound good. The W6 will sound amazing. You won't have a ton of output but if you're looking for something that sounds excellent to fill in a little of the low end, it will do it perfectly.


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

> You can use any sub IB. It may or may not sound good. Some are made specifically for IB use. Some are not but still sound really good. Some will sound like crap. There are certain parameters that will help guide you to which ones have a chance of sounding good but as I recently found out, they can look good on paper and still not sound that good IB.
> 
> I can tell you that a 10" Image Dynamics IDQ will sound good, Image Dynamics IDMax will sound good and a 10W6 will sound very good in that configuration. There are probably cheaper options that will also sound very good but those I know from personal experience to sound good. The W6 will sound amazing. You won't have a ton of output but if you're looking for something that sounds excellent to fill in a little of the low end, it will do it perfectly.


thanks for clearin it up Buick


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> The AE IB15 is one of the best if not THE best IB subwoofer out there. If I had to guess, I have maybe 100 watts to each one for normal loud listening. I have to measure one of these days but when I switched to these subs I turned the gain on the amp down to maybe 1/8th of the way where it was 3/4 of the way up with my Tempest 15" sub and my two 12W6s in a box. Amp is rated for 1,000 watts at 2 ohms and I'm only using a fraction of that for very loud listening. Very, very little power is required to get loud. I believe it takes around 250 watts to hit xmax at the lowest frequencies and they can handle 500 thermally at higher frequencies.
> 
> They do make home subs. The IB15 is the home version, the IB15a is the automotive version tailored for a car's trunk since it's not a true infinite baffle environment. This is the best sounding car sub setup I've ever heard in every category bar none.
> 
> I still have the 12W6, it's been for sale now for a couple weeks.


IB15 is a great driver, no ****... 
But it's real asset was its price. If the IB15 was something like $600, I'm sure DIYMA boner would have been another sub. 

Now that the IB15 went down only to bring a new more expensive sub, I'm sure one could now find a better deal. 

Kelvin


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

> IB15


which one is the IB15?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Acoustic Elegance 

Kelvin


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> IB15 is a great driver, no ****...
> But it's real asset was its price. If the IB15 was something like $600, I'm sure DIYMA boner would have been another sub.
> 
> Now that the IB15 went down only to bring a new more expensive sub, I'm sure one could now find a better deal.
> ...



That was a big selling point no doubt but which IB sub would you consider better with price not being a factor? I know there are some that displace more air but for SQ and working so well in a car environment, I can't think of any. Low power requirements and the ability to play high were high on my list of good things. Of course, the disclaimer is that I've only personally used 3 IB setups, the W6, Tempest, and IB15s.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Heard 2 new Dynaudio 12" and it's one freaking low distorsion IB sub... 
Aurasound 18" is another one - never got to hear it though but reading on the motor, and few reviews of it IB, it is one serious contender for best IB sub. 

Kelvin


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Heard 2 new Dynaudio 12" and it's one freaking low distorsion IB sub...
> Aurasound 18" is another one - never got to hear it though but reading on the motor, and few reviews of it IB, it is one serious contender for best IB sub.
> 
> Kelvin


How are the new ones different from the old? 

I used to have a pair of the old ones for a short while...I thought they were gutless. Didn't have the output I was needing for the car I had at that time. Additional sound deadening would have been pointless.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Heard 2 new Dynaudio 12" and it's one freaking low distorsion IB sub...
> Aurasound 18" is another one - never got to hear it though but reading on the motor, and few reviews of it IB, it is one serious contender for best IB sub.
> 
> Kelvin


The Dynaudio is one I've wanted to hear for a long time. Nierbur3 has one IB and it sounds like he likes it but I haven't heard a detailed review. I've read about the guy (I'm sure he's on here) with a G35 that loves the Dyn IB. Always open to new ideas, no brand loyalty here. 

Another "weird" thing I've noticed with the AEs is the sound does not change when the volume is cranked. That's the best way I know to describe it. I did not notice this before with the other subs but with these I now realize that the SQ would change with more power on the old subs.


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

dynaudio, or that acoustic elegance? don't know much about them.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Bluliner said:


> How are the new ones different from the old?
> 
> I used to have a pair of the old ones for a short while...I thought they were gutless. Didn't have the output I was needing for the car I had at that time. Additional sound deadening would have been pointless.


Old one - MW190 12": 















http://www.dynaudio.com/images/auto/mobile/pdf-mobile/DYN_MW190.pdf

New one - Esotar2 1200 12": 






















http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/pdf/Esotar2_1200.pdf

Kelvin


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

those look nice, what would those run for as of price?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mrzapco said:


> those look nice, what would those run for as of price?


Old: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/89332-1-pair-dynaudio-mw190s.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/62251-dynaudio-mw-190-12-woofers-bnib.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/61905-dynaudio-new-thread-new-prices-below-cost.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/51610-fs-alpine-pdx2-150s-dynaudio-mw190s.html 

New: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ynaudio-esotec-esotar-gear-motus-lab-agw.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/43008-dynaudio-esotar-2-complete-line.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/105124-dynaudio-esotar2-650-110-1200-set.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/98474-fs-used-dynaudio-esotar2-1200-sub.html 

Hope you have deep pockets... 

Kelvin


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Old:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/89332-1-pair-dynaudio-mw190s.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/62251-dynaudio-mw-190-12-woofers-bnib.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/61905-dynaudio-new-thread-new-prices-below-cost.html
> ...


I came sooo close to getting the esotar sub once I decided to go IB before I found the IB15s.

We're having a national Acura meet in Kansas (round about) where Niebur3 lives. I want to compare the IB15s to his Esotars so bad. Not because I think the IB15s are better, just to know first hand the differences. Replacing the factory radio that just went out would have paid for my gas one way. Unfortunately I'll proabably never know the differences, can't afford the trip and I probably wouldn't have a GF anymore once I got back.

Have you heard this particular sub first hand? Just looking for more reviews. I have one more car to do and might go with the Dyn.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> I came sooo close to getting the esotar sub once I decided to go IB before I found the IB15s.
> 
> We're having a national Acura meet in Kansas (round about) where Niebur3 lives. I want to compare the IB15s to his Esotars so bad. Not because I think the IB15s are better, just to know first hand the differences. Replacing the factory radio that just went out would have paid for my gas one way. Unfortunately I'll proabably never know the differences, can't afford the trip and I probably wouldn't have a GF anymore once I got back.
> 
> Have you heard this particular sub first hand? Just looking for more reviews. I have one more car to do and might go with the Dyn.


Yup, heard 2 of them in a G37 @ Beach Autosound in OC California - both were powered by a Tru SH-1 if I remember correctly. 

Effortless sound that never gives out their location... Simply astounding 

Kelvin


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Yup, heard 2 of them in a G37 @ Beach Autosound in OC California - both were powered by a Tru SH-1 if I remember correctly.
> 
> Effortless sound that never gives out their location... Simply astounding
> 
> Kelvin


Any chance of ever hearing this car for myself..... Does it take it to comps/shows much? 

This is a decision I won't have to make for another 6 months but it would still be nice to hear. Plus, it's natural to want to see where your stuff stands against the best.

That has to be the same guy that I remember giving a very useful, detailed review.... how many G sedans can there be with these subs...


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

It's Tom's car (the owner of Beach Autosound). If you're down in Socal, then just ask him if you can take a listen to it. 

He has a full F#1, Dynaudio Esotar, Tru Cooper system  - Mids and Tweets on-axis...

Kelvin


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## mrzapco (May 27, 2011)

wow, the only way i would be albe to afford that is if i can sell my Sq parts on the forum.


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