# Adding Low End to OEM Bose Stereo? (Diagram Included)



## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

I've spent a good bit of time thinking about how exactly I wanted to implement my sub amp into my Nissan Altima OEM Bose stereo. After reading and reading, it looks like the Audio Control LC6i has just the functionality that I’m looking for, without having to pay for features I would not need (at least just yet). I have aspirations of eventually going with an aftermarket head unit, but that is no where in the foreseeable future, so for now, adding some low end to the stock stereo will have to do. Without further adieu, the first pass diagram of my future system is below. 



I just had a few remaining questions:
1. Is there anything I am missing here? 
2. Is there any issue in tapping the signal BEFORE the OEM amp (I am pretty certain that that the low level outputs of the OEM head unit passes a full range signal to the OEM amp)?
3. Are there any issues in tapping into the 1/0 gauge wire before it goes into the distribution block, as long as I put an inline fuse to the LC6i?
4. Is it OK to tap into the stock remote line to turn the LC6i on... or do I even have to (does it sense signal and turn on automatically anyway)?


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

You are missing the fact that the Bose system sucks hind tit, and a Bose system with a sub added sounds like a Bose system with a sub added - i.e., crapola with more bass. 

But other than that, the output to the Bose amp is flat and full-range, but you may have engine noise afterwards. You will probably introduce a ground loop into the system and have engine noise on the Bose speaks on the Bose amp. 

There is NO reason to use an Audio Control LOC on the balanced preamp out - it's designed for higher-voltage preamp inputs. 

Don't take this the wrong way - I was giving you a hard time at the beginning of the post, but you really aren't worried about fidelity if you aren't jettisoning the Bose system - so honest to God, your best bet is to use the woofer outputs of the Bose amp - the speaker level signals - with their EQ and all - because it will still sound better than the rest of your system. 

Crap, I just looked at your system diagram. There is no right way to do a wrong thing. Those poor IDs must have been evil in a previous life. 

Don't use the LC6i, it is the wrong device - just use a cheap PAC SNI-45. I've tested it and it's flat as a pancake, and I've never seen any other passive LOC come close to that on the bench.


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

VP Electricity said:


> You are missing the fact that the Bose system sucks hind tit, and a Bose system with a sub added sounds like a Bose system with a sub added - i.e., crapola with more bass.


OK, no need to flame. In order to get the car that I wanted, I HAD to get the Bose stereo. Yes, I know it sucks, but my options were to get a ****ty car or get a ****ty overpriced stereo, I opted for the latter because I will eventually replace it anyway. For now though, no need to flame because I am upgrading on a long-term schedule to high end equipment. 

Don't let my 'newer' account fool you, I've been into car audio for 10+ years. I've been moving towards SQ, as opposed to SPL over the last 5 years. This will be the first time I've added a stereo to an OEM deck, so I want to know what to watch out for. Thanks for the opinion, though I've already heard it, and know it well. :thumbsup:



VP Electricity said:


> Don't use the LC6i, it is the wrong device - just use a cheap PAC SNI-45. I've tested it and it's flat as a pancake, and I've never seen any other passive LOC come close to that on the bench.


The PAC SNI-45 is another piece I've had in my final list, but didn't want to limit my ability to expand down the line (New Front Stage & Rear Fill Amp & Speakers... with an eventual move to an aftermarket deck) and I was worried that the Stock equalization after the Bose Amp would be an issue (or can it be hooked to the line-level outputs of the head unit). I thought about going with a Bit One, but feel that amount of money is better put towards an aftermarket deck. I'll take another look at the PAC unit, it might very well fit the bill. Any other units that might be as handy?

Edit: Just want to make sure that we are talking apples-to-apples (and for those searching in the future). Is this the exact unit you are referring to?
http://www.pac-audio.com/productDetails.aspx?ProductId=175&CategoryID=28


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

blindbug said:


> OK, no need to flame.


But I didn't make any comments about YOU. I commented on the Bose stereo system. And my feelings about the proposed system, true. But I did not say anything bad about you - hence, flame free.



blindbug said:


> In order to get the car that I wanted, I HAD to get the Bose stereo.


That's actually a great option to take so that you can get a Nissan Infiniti OE HU with a flat, full-range balanced preamp output. Also true for Mazdas, Audis, etc. 



blindbug said:


> For now though, no need to flame because I am upgrading on a long-term schedule to high end equipment.


Adding two IDMAX subs to a Bose stereo system is a poor assignment of resources and indicates a desire for an amount of bass that is just silly. 



blindbug said:


> Don't let my 'newer' account fool you, I've been into car audio for 10+ years. I've been moving towards SQ, as opposed to SPL over the last 5 years. This will be the first time I've added a stereo to an OEM deck, so I want to know what to watch out for. Thanks for the opinion, though I've already heard it, and know it well. :thumbsup:


Apparently I did not communicate effectively.

Free help looks the way it looks. Doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, adding that kind of bass to Bose OE speakers indicates that you will probably not like my advice anyway. I have yet to hear of anyone doing that kind of install to listen to anything I would think of as musical.



blindbug said:


> The PAC SNI-45 is another piece I've had in my final list, but didn't want to limit my ability to expand down the line (New Front Stage & Rear Fill Amp & Speakers... with an eventual move to an aftermarket deck) and I was worried that the Stock equalization after the Bose Amp would be an issue. I thought about going with a Bit One, but feel that amount of money is better put towards an aftermarket deck. I'll take another look at the PAC unit, it might very well fit the bill. Any other units that might be as handy?


Honestly the Bose equalization will affect the signal to the subs, but it's not one of those that has a rising subsonic filter. It has an inoffensive peak that - in all seriousness - someone doing this kind of install will probably like. It's not like you are aiming for a perfect .707 QTS or anything.

The SNI-45 is cheap. I consider all passive LOCs to be crap, but the test curve on this really surprised me. 

If you later go to a real hi-fi setup, you can still use the Bose HU (it's NOT really a Bose HU, it's a Clarion HU with a balanced preamp out and a Bose silkscreen on the front) with something with balanced inputs. But you shouldn't use the LC6 on those outputs because it's made for higher voltage signals and it will screw your noise floor.


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## ZOMGVTEK (Sep 29, 2008)

Its not possible to make BOSE equipment sound good. You might want to consider replacing the amp and speakers as well.


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

VP Electricity said:


> Adding two IDMAX subs to a Bose stereo system is a poor assignment of resources and indicates a desire for an amount of bass that is just silly.


I can agree with that. The IDMAX is a sub I've had before, and after running the JLW6V2, I wanted again. I decided to go 10" this time, so when I can upgrade the rest of the vehicle it will be a little more balanced. I was actually looking for IDQ 10's at the time, but came across these at a hard-to-pass-up price, so I bit. 

The amp & wiring came out of my old car, so it was a minimal investment to add bass. The _majority_ of my current budget went into 116 square feet of Second Skin Damplifier Pro, Heat Wave and Overkill. 




VP Electricity said:


> Honestly the Bose equalization will affect the signal to the subs, but it's not one of those that has a rising subsonic filter. It has an inoffensive peak that - in all seriousness - someone doing this kind of install will probably like. It's not like you are aiming for a perfect .707 QTS or anything.
> 
> The SNI-45 is cheap. I consider all passive LOCs to be crap, but the test curve on this really surprised me.
> 
> If you later go to a real hi-fi setup, you can still use the Bose HU (it's NOT really a Bose HU, it's a Clarion HU with a balanced preamp out and a Bose silkscreen on the front) with something with balanced inputs. But you shouldn't use the LC6 on those outputs because it's made for higher voltage signals and it will screw your noise floor.


The kind of install I am doing currently, and the kind of install I have my eye on are two different things. What component would you suggest that would allow me to keep the stock HU, while I get the side funds to replace the rest of the system?



ZOMGVTEK said:


> Its not possible to make BOSE equipment sound good. You might want to consider replacing the amp and speakers as well.


Yes, I WILL BE REPLACING THE BOSE SPEAKERS. However, I will not be able to replace them until I can hook up an aftermarket amplifier to the OEM Head Unit. I understand your need to tell me how bad Bose is. Trust me, I KNOW, I listen to them every day. But until I can get a defined plan together, I will never be able to replace them.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

blindbug said:


> What component would you suggest that would allow me to keep the stock HU, while I get the side funds to replace the rest of the system?


The output from your OE HU is the same as the output from this guy's OE HU:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/63944-please-help-noob.html

So I would cite that thread and the articles he mentions...


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanks, that has exactly what I am looking for. I really wanted to go to Zapco DC Amps, so the Balanced Differential Input would work for me. I can negate the cost of an LOC... possibly sell my Cadence (Oh how I will miss it though) and those two cost savings will come out around the cost of an amp replacement. Down the line, I can add a second amp and replace the frontstage with items of quality. Let me know if any of this sounds 'off the mark'.

For future searchers. This is the specific post that put it all in perspective:
VP Electricity's Post


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

lol at the blows haterz.

$20 sais in a blind a/b test peeps wouldnt be able to identify bose over kenwood or clarion etc.

after years of being around car audio forums i believe good processing can fix anything.

get your subs in and enjoy your bump.

smart move buying the car you want then fixing the stereo,

what kind of fool would buy the system they wanted standing on bricks?


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanks 60ndown, I knew I would have trouble getting answers because all the focus would go to the Bose end of the system... Which I am trying to replace through the questions I'm asking. It's a nice surprise that the OEM deck has balanced outputs (unless I am reading it wrong). I have no issues splicing/soldering into the head unit, in fact it wasn't a month ago that I took the whole unit apart to try to add RCA's directly to the motherboard. If I can do the same, but add symbalink then I can go directly to the zapco amps. 

I've been debating going withe only (1) of the IDMAX subs and in looking at the Zapco Refernce 500.1 it might be a great option, withthe ability to pair in a 200.4 or somehing in the future.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

I ran an IDMAX 10 in a corner-loaded sealed fiberglass enclosure off a DC500 and was disappointed...that sub needed an 1100, I fear. Like to be wrong on this, but don't think I am...


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

Good to know... Bumps the asking price up considerably and will have to look at a false floor because of space concerns. The other amps I've been eyeing are the JL Audio Slash & HD series as well as the Alpine PDX series... both of which accept balanced inputs. It might be a little more in my budget and space to go with a JL 1000.1 and a 300.4 for fronts when I get to that point.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

That experience with an IDMAX had an impact on how I see those woofers...they require a significant resource commitment in a sealed application. I'm sure that affected my initial reaction...can't imagine using two off a stock alternator...


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

since you plan on upgrading may i suggest the AC DQL8 instead of the lci6


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Horsemanwill said:


> since you plan on upgrading may i suggest the AC DQL8 instead of the lci6


May I recommend NOT getting a DQL-8, but getting a DQXS, since a DQL-8 is exactly what I've been urging you not to do. (it is essentially a LC8 feeding a DQXS in one module). The DQXS has balanced inputs. 

I'm not recommending it over anything else, but you want the balanced in, not the high voltage speaker in.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I'd put in a crossover like the 4xs or some thing with differential inputs and plenty of output gain instead of a LOC. Then, you can high-pass the Bose system ad low pass your sub. EQ will be applied to the Bose stuff for high frequencies, but the low pass won't include any EQ and there won't be a bunch of overlap to muddy up the bass. Addidionally, relieving the Bose speakers and amp from having to make a bunch of bass will increase their output capability. Even better than that would be to put in something that would allow you to do the above AND re-EQ the system.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

vp, if you wanted to use the dql8, i imagine you would have to splice into RCA's right? how is that done?...ground and positive to each channel?


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

if you did get an LC6i as in your drawing, you dont need a remote wire. it auto detects on the speaker inputs.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> vp, if you wanted to use the dql8, i imagine you would have to splice into RCA's right? how is that done?...ground and positive to each channel?


Remember that a balanced signal has positive, negative, and ground. 

If you test the RCA shields of the L and R RCA connectors on a device, and you get continuity, the device is common-grounded. Balanced inputs don't ground the outer shield and they are not commoned. 

The way I would do it if you are planning to upgrade the hu in future is to buy a pair of 1-male-to-2-female RCA "Y" adapters, twisted pair, with plastic ends rather than metal. 

Circumcise the male ends off the "Y" adapters. Toss them. Now you have 4 female RCA connectors with pigtails. Strip them back as you would a regular wire and test for + (connected to pin) and - (connected to outer ring) with a multimeter. 

At the back of the hu, cut the balanced wires 6" from the connector. Connect the pigtails to the radio-side wires 6" long. Observe proper polarity!

Now run regular M-to-M RCA from the back of the hu to the amp or processor. When you upgrade your hu, the rca is there and ready.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

placenta said:


> if you did get an LC6i as in your drawing, you dont need a remote wire. it auto detects on the speaker inputs.


Technically correct, but whenever you have an RTO present, use it. Eliminates the delay. AC would agree with this, I suspect.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'd put in a crossover like the 4xs or some thing with differential inputs and plenty of output gain instead of a LOC. Then, you can high-pass the Bose system ad low pass your sub. EQ will be applied to the Bose stuff for high frequencies, but the low pass won't include any EQ and there won't be a bunch of overlap to muddy up the bass. Addidionally, relieving the Bose speakers and amp from having to make a bunch of bass will increase their output capability. Even better than that would be to put in something that would allow you to do the above AND re-EQ the system.


All correct on paper... But in practice, two big objections. 

1) I have yet to see anyone try anything like this and avoid painful noise troubleshooting. 

2) Avoiding the noise question, you still have a lot of work for a terribly small return.

Also, while high-passing the Bose system will decrease speaker-generated distortion, will high-passing it limit amp-originated distortions? You should know more about IC-based OE amps than I...


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## mda185 (Dec 14, 2006)

I have to caveat this by saying I agree with VP's assessment of Bose systems. It does not pay to throw too much money at improving a system that was never designed with SQ as a high priority.

However, I have successfully installed an old PPI signal processor in between an aftermarket head unit the the factory Bose amps as a temporary measure while I finish the design and installation of the rest of the system. When I am done, nothing will remain of the OEM stereo. I am using a PPI PAR-225 preamp and I have absolutely no noise problems interfacing this with the Bose amps. I am not using the Bose head unit so I can't say with 100% confidence that this can be done with no noise problems but my 50% solution is working well. 

A low cost way to experiment with Andy's suggestion would be to try using an Audio Control EQX with crossover and 13 band EQ built in. It has differential inputs and outputs and internal switches that let you try different signal grounding schemes. I have purchased these used for $100 in the past. Not sure what they go for now. This may be good enough to hold you over until you can finish upgrading the whole system. If you lived closer to me, I would offer to test one of my units in your Altima to see if it will work.


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

VP, thanks very much for your help! Based on the system schematics, there is a pair of positive and negative wires for each channel (front left channel has a + and - signal... Same for FR, RL and RR signals.

So, to get a balanced signal do I need to connect the jacke of the RCA pigtails to the ground wire of the HU? OR, do I just need the positive/negative hooked to the +/- of the pigtails, leaving the jacket out of the equation?

Just as an update, I'm swaying between buying a Jl Audio 1000/1 or a Zapco 1100.1 for the sub(s). I am also thinking about using only one sub and selling the other to finance buying a Zapco. Down the line I would like to go with Dyn or Morel hooked to an amp of the same line as my sub. Even further down the line, I want to replace the head unit and add a line processor or EQ into the mix.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Jeebus and Lucifer.

the guy gets the whole Bose thing. And really for a factory set up, are they really so bad? They may miss a bit up top and some down low but really? I have heard quite a few "SQ" set ups now with high end product and heard a lot of crap. 

It wasn't an Altima but a Suburban that I added a sub to the stock Bose system for my wife. Only thing I ran into, and I had been warned was the eqing that is built in. The louder the stereo was turned up the lower the bass frequencies were reproduced and the muddier it got. When the Delco head 's CD player died, I added a Pioneer Premier head tied to some Pac converter for onstar support. It helped immensely.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Cub, you need to click on VP's links


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Oh I have read a lot of his posts. He has a lot of valuable info to give out. I have a lot of respect for him. 

My initial post was frustration at the multitude of Bose? Bose? Bose? Aaaagggghhh! We all get it. if people would read the entire initial post of the OP. He gets it. As well as so many on here that ask for advice. They will post their equipment and some piece or pieces will infuriate the masses because it is not a "preferred" brand. Or the upgrade is not in the "preferred order And often times the OP will even say that they will eventually swap this "swill" brand out as budgets allow or they (god forbid) want a little bass overkill first. Then I as a reader, have to wade through a multitude of posts, some with a bit of info but most others with insults. It is just silly. Better uses of time and more constructive things could be said. I guess a lot of the brand specific snide remarks get tiresome.

What if the Bose system was good enough for the person and they want just a little more bass presence? or just louder while also being clean and without audible distortion? They ask for direction or advice on a specific item and get bombarded by those that think their brand choices are bad. 

Wooo... rant over sorry


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

jl 1000/1 require a REALLY STRONG ELECTRICAL SYSTEM or it shuts off.

id go with another amp, the jl is wayyyy power hungry.



blindbug said:


> VP, thanks very much for your help! Based on the system schematics, there is a pair of positive and negative wires for each channel (front left channel has a + and - signal... Same for FR, RL and RR signals.
> 
> So, to get a balanced signal do I need to connect the jacke of the RCA pigtails to the ground wire of the HU? OR, do I just need the positive/negative hooked to the +/- of the pigtails, leaving the jacket out of the equation?
> 
> Just as an update, I'm swaying between buying a Jl Audio 1000/1 or a Zapco 1100.1 for the sub(s). I am also thinking about using only one sub and selling the other to finance buying a Zapco. Down the line I would like to go with Dyn or Morel hooked to an amp of the same line as my sub. Even further down the line, I want to replace the head unit and add a line processor or EQ into the mix.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Dude, I wouldn't call two IDMAX "a little more bass presence".

But if you would like me to admit that I impose my prejudices onto my communication, een as I do my best to answer the question, I will absolutely cop to doing so. I am didactic in my lecturing but I include the requested info as much as I can. I consider my opinions the toll to cross the Styx...


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

What??? LOL..I know kids who WOULD say that the 2 woofs are a slight bass presence. Again if it seemed geared towards you (my rant) sorry. I read a lot of these posts and invariably it becomes a scene of insults. bores me to ranting!



EDIT: The kids/bass comment was to be taken as kidding!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Dude, cub.. srsly man... his link to the OEM integration stuffs man......... It's neet ****.

The link can help the OP.. I'm not trying to stir some ****.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I see the OP's point. My objective when I had my 2007 Accord was to have some low end to complement the factory system while I decided what I wanted. I started out by having a Memphis PR10 and a PR2.75 added in the trunk, and it provided me a decent bottom end to complement the factory 160 watt "premium" sound system. Sadly, a drunk driver totaled my vehicle before I was able to finish piecing my system together for the V6 6MT Sedan.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

chad said:


> Dude, cub.. srsly man... his link to the OEM integration stuffs man......... It's neet ****.


I KNOW!! i was on the forum looking at his 2009 Cadillac Escalade w/Bose and Nav thread. Wish I had this resource when I did the wifes Suburban. Wife is now looking at a Venza with the DVD and nav. I am going to search now.


Again nothing against him. Cat has knowledge and is in the biz. Will be looking him up if she decides on the Venza


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

@70 mph, in a typical vehicle (not dead quiet luxury) id say 2 12" subs is MINIMUM requirement for good sub bass.mids and highs cut thru road noise easily, and theyre closer to us, but getting strong sub bass up front @ 70 mph requires lots of power and displacement.

parked a single 10 will do.

imo/e.


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## blindbug (Jun 14, 2007)

Guys, guys, guys.... we're getting a little off topic (again :laugh: ).



60ndown said:


> jl 1000/1 require a REALLY STRONG ELECTRICAL SYSTEM or it shuts off.
> 
> id go with another amp, the jl is wayyyy power hungry.


I would figure the JL 1000/1 to be less power hungry than the Zapco 1100.1, if for nothing less than the fact that it is class D. Am I wrong in that assumption? I also see a Zapco 1100M up for grabs out in the classifieds which peaked my interest as well. 

Given my situation, I will likely build a new single-chamber box and run with just (1) sub for now. I typically keep my levels pretty low, and listen to a wide range of music: Bluegrass, Country, Hip-Hop, Rap, Indie, Rock... I'll keep my second around for now and if I don't like the sound of (1) sub, I can always go back and add in the second.



blindbug said:


> VP, thanks very much for your help! Based on the system schematics, there is a pair of positive and negative wires for each channel (front left channel has a + and - signal... Same for FR, RL and RR signals.
> 
> So, to get a balanced signal do I need to connect the jacke of the RCA pigtails to the ground wire of the HU? OR, do I just need the positive/negative hooked to the +/- of the pigtails, leaving the jacket out of the equation?


I understand now that the Balanced Inputs should require a Positive, Negative AND Ground to be properly balanced. I am definitely OK with soldering/splicing RCA/Symbalink Pigtails into the Head Unit, I just need to know if the Ground wire/jacket needs to be wired to the common ground on the head unit for proper balance. I believe the answer is yes, but I want to be sure.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

blindbug said:


> I would figure the JL 1000/1 to be less power hungry than the Zapco 1100.1, if for nothing less than the fact that it is class D. Am I wrong in that assumption?


If the JL Audio 1000/1 is like its little brother, you are likely to be seeing efficiency in the 50% range, which is TERRIBLE for a Class D amplifier. Then again, I am basing my comments on **THIS** review as I have yet to see a JL Audio amplifier on a clamp!

Assuming that article is correct, the RIPS technology in the JL Audio amplifier would appear to drop its efficiency into class AB territory.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> All correct on paper... But in practice, two big objections.
> 
> 1) I have yet to see anyone try anything like this and avoid painful noise troubleshooting.
> 
> ...


The differential inputs of the AC stuff will help to combat the potential noise--in fact, I've never in my 25 years of trying to make stuff work with OE systems, had serious problems with Bose, provided there are no single-ended products in the chain. Eliminating the bass from the signal to the bose amps will reduce distortion since the amplifiers will no longer have to reproduce the current-sucking low frequencies. I have a car-full of IC chip amps (24 of them, to be precise) that drive all the speakers except for the subs. The car doesn't do 150dB, but distortion isn't a problem at normal (and slightly higher than normal) listening levels. 

The EQX suggested by another poster is the right direction to go with this.


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