# Honda Ridgeline Build *lots of pics*



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

This site is evil, after lurking here for awhile, I got the fabrication bug again, so I'm going to upgrade the system! It will take awhile, but should be interesting..

The original install was done on the 2007 Ridgeline. Fortunately, I can leverage off of the initial install.

Switching from a 2-way + sub to a true 3-way + sub made a HUGE difference.  Now, its about tuning and positioning the speakers..

Major projects will be to build a sealed box in the door panels for the mid bass and possibly redo the kick panels for better imaging..

Here's the upgrade in a nut shell

OEM deck --> Alpine IDA-X305s
no processor --> PXA-H100 ( temporary?)
CDT silk tweeters --> CDT aluminum tweeters
CDT HD-3 (3" front fill) --> Hertz HL70 3" mid-range
CDT ES-6 (Midrange) --> CDT QES 670 (6.5" mid-bass)
Image dynamics 10" -- CDT QES-1020 (10" sub)
JL 500/5 amp --> ZED Audio Leviathan II 6 channel

I now have a true 3-way + sub. What a difference it makes for imaging...

Read on.. Here's some pics of the original install

Link to the fabrication of the kicks is here:

http://www.fiberglassforums.com/audio-panels/5145-kick-panels-honda-ridgeline.html


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's the RAAMAT that was installed several years ago.. I am seriously considering installing some Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) to kill some noise. Any suggestions on the best bang for the buck??


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I made these kicks several years ago.. Right after I bought the vehicle, that same year I tore into it and made these.. Turned out very nice and suited my purposes until now. Back then the 3" speaker was used as "front" fill, now its being used a true 3 way system. Much better.. Number one rule, don't install mid ranges in the doors!

My first priority is to make sealed boxes in the doors and I may come back to the kicks..


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## lashlee (Aug 16, 2007)

Great looking kicks. I've got my midbasses in the kicks with the tweeter and mid range on the dash. That might be easier than trying to seal off the door, but I have seen it done with great success. The mids on the dash also got rid of the rainbow effect that I had from the mids and tweeters in the kicks.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Where are all the pics


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

lashlee said:


> Great looking kicks. I've got my midbasses in the kicks with the tweeter and mid range on the dash. That might be easier than trying to seal off the door, but I have seen it done with great success. The mids on the dash also got rid of the rainbow effect that I had from the mids and tweeters in the kicks.


Yes, I know what you mean about the rainbow effect.. I was playing the 7 drum tracks tonight and picked up some rainbow effect. Not happy w/ how the drivers are positioned. They are set for both driver and passenger. I wish I focused on driver only..

How did you angle your mids?

I have found a way to create a .25 cubic sealed box without cutting any sheet metal or modifying the plastic door panel. And it will be vibration isolated! 

Stay tuned.. I'll show some pics soon..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

trojan fan said:


> Where are all the pics


FYI, this build is not done.. Actually its just getting started for the upgrade, I'll be taking a lot of pics along the way.

Yeah, the amp and deck are in the truck , but not fully installed yet.. 

Didn't mean to use a marketing strategy to pull you in :surprised:


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

I've GOT to get on this "kick panel" bandwagon. Those have got to be
easily within the top 8, best looking kicks I've ever seen! It has made 
up my mind to ditch my current set and start over!. The ole "tear drop" 
style I've made looks great but just doesn't flow half as good as yours.. 
They say copying is the ultimate form of flattery. Well, That is surely 
the case here. The fitment, finish, and most of all the flow matches 
your truck DEAD NUTS perfect 

Also, I've never looked at, it really does look like a NICE PIT 
OF KIT. Best part is it looks very user friendly....

Best of luck,
SCOTT...

ps. 
My way of bumping a thread without saying, SUBSCRIBED


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Your kicks look very factory like....nice job


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## Mr. Randy (Apr 21, 2006)

I agree those are some very nice kicks...I prefer the factory look.


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## DJTrevLuv (Apr 15, 2008)

bginvestor said:


> Here's the RAAMAT that was installed several years ago.. I am seriously considering installing some Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) to kill some noise. Any suggestions on the best bang for the buck??


I would highly recomend Sound Deadener Showdown (Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information)

I installed MLV, Cld Tiles and CCF in my Ridgeline, made a big difference.

Trev


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

i installed MLV/CCF, after reinstalling all panels and carpeting
i ran into 2 fitment issue, but it was easily alleviated...

the plastic trim that covers the rear seat holder would not snap back in place
-- lift the carpet up, place the plastic trim back on the floor were it should go
trace around it by about 1/2" - 1" extra, then cut that section out of the MLV. (FIXED)

dashboard center lower cover would not even line up 
--the issue with this lies in the fact that MLV lifts the A/C duct work (for the rear) up to high.
Cut the MLV back from dashboard center lower cover cage to about 6” past the first 
bend of the duct work were it first leaves the dash, I ended placing a 12” x 12” square
of Ensolite in place of the MLV that I cut out. (FIXED)

hope this helps


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## jaikai (Aug 8, 2011)

Those kicks are just too good. Wow.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I've GOT to get on this "kick panel" bandwagon. Those have got to be
> easily within the top 8, best looking kicks I've ever seen! It has made
> up my mind to ditch my current set and start over!. The ole "tear drop"
> style I've made looks great but just doesn't flow half as good as yours..
> ...


Thanks man..

Here's the official fabrication link if your interested...

http://www.fiberglassforums.com/audio-panels/5145-kick-panels-honda-ridgeline.html


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Those kickpanels look like the aftermarket ones I seen. You made these? Very nice job!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> Thanks man..
> 
> Here's the official fabrication link if your interested...
> 
> Kick panels for Honda Ridgeline.. - Fiberglass Forums


Great link, you should edit your orig to include it.

Your process and attention are great. I'll no doubt be 
using some of them myself......


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Those kick panels are pretty awesome... great work.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

DJTrevLuv said:


> I would highly recomend Sound Deadener Showdown (Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information)
> 
> I installed MLV, Cld Tiles and CCF in my Ridgeline, made a big difference.
> 
> Trev


Thanks for all the kind words guys. 

Excellent .. .. this is a great website.. I decided I will order some MLV and include it in this install. I will order soon. It seems these prices are very competitive to the other manufacturers. I like the idea of separating the vinyl and foam.. 

I will have to check out second skin also since they do business in my home town. thx.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

abusiveDAD said:


> i installed MLV/CCF, after reinstalling all panels and carpeting
> i ran into 2 fitment issue, but it was easily alleviated...
> 
> the plastic trim that covers the rear seat holder would not snap back in place
> ...


Got it ! This will definitely help. This is a one day job, right?


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Great link, you should edit your orig to include it.
> 
> Your process and attention are great. I'll no doubt be
> using some of them myself......


Thanks.. Kicks are great.. I decided to jump into kicks after some listening tests and to take advantage of Path Length Differences (PLD).

My kicks have many advantages, but the weaknesses are that I don't have line of sight to my ears for the "left" channel. The steering wheel and legs effect imaging for the RIDGELINE. Since this is a truck, the dash is high and the seats are relatively far forward which doesn't help. 

I am getting serious about tuning, so one my goals to get imaging spot on. I can tell you that I don't have problems w/ a very low image. 

take care..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Those kickpanels look like the aftermarket ones I seen. You made these? Very nice job!


Yup, I made them.. all you need is patience.. sand, sand, sand some more, and more and more.. lol


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's my sub.. a CDT-1020.. I am extremely impressed w/ this sub. I really like the bass sound..

I just threw into the vehicle, I will go back and re-do the installation.

I plan to dampen the inside w/ Cascade products, use Acousta-Stuf Polyfill, and better fasten the sub into the MDF.

The box is an aftermarket sub-thump box custom for the Ridgeline.

http://www.subthump.com/

If you like CDT products, I highly recommend looking at the b-stock. I bought this sub at half price and it is a great value. Check the link. It was brand new..

Shop CDT Audio - QES-1020


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> Got it ! This will definitely help. This is a one day job, right?


1 day job easily,,, 4-6 hrs with trouble shooting.
you'll be okay. biggest issue/ time consumption is is seats in and by yourself 
WITHOUT scratching anything. 

No adhesive needed unless you are doing vertical planes,,, (ie fire wall)

FYI when i laid mine it was left to right (passenger to driver) not 
front to back.


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

i also used B-QUIET for deadening,
easy/clean/affordable

+ great people to deal with


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

I was primised lots of pictures..i see like 6? and no progress pictures O_O kick panels look nice though, did you build them?


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

eviling said:


> I was primised lots of pictures..i see like 6? and no progress pictures O_O kick panels look nice though, did you build them?


go to ROC FORUM,,,

plus i love the way the door grills came out


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

eviling said:


> I was primised lots of pictures..i see like 6? and no progress pictures O_O kick panels look nice though, did you build them?


Pics o plenty is coming.. I started the thread to document the updates to the install..

I have big plans for the door panels that I'm currently working on.. it will be vibration isolated in a sealed enclosure without any modifications to the door panels OR door.. I'll post pics in the next coming week.

However, for those interested in the original install , here's the links.. As you can see, I'm come a long ways in equipment.

Day #1
Bginvestor's Audio Install Day #1 - Honda Ridgeline Owners Club Forums

Day#2
Bginvestor's Audio Install Day #2 - Honda Ridgeline Owners Club Forums

Day#3
Bginvestor's Audio Install Day #3 - Honda Ridgeline Owners Club Forums

Day#4
Bginvestor's Install Day#4 - Honda Ridgeline Owners Club Forums

Day#5
Bginvestor's Install Day #5 (final) - Honda Ridgeline Owners Club Forums

Updated install:
Bginvestor's updated install - Honda Ridgeline Owners Club Forums


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok.. so, here's the main reason why I started this build thread..

I'm currently working on modifying the doors to provide better mid-bass response..

Currently using the QES-670's from CDT audio. I believe these are excellent speakers and they sound great currently installed in the doors.

However, after doing some listening tests, I believe that my midbasses are the weak link in the system right now. I'm getting some vibration in the doors at certain frequencies.. and although the bass sound is good, I want to improve it by making the bass sound "tighter". I want to feel the bass better from the 80 to 400 Hz better.

My ridgeline doors have an inner pocket that could provide me opportunities in building an enclosure.

Below is some pics of the old install. I have used RAAMAT products to dampen the doors and reduce rattles using insolite. In the other shot, you can see the inner pocket that provides the opportunity to do stuff .


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's the thought process..

Goal #1 - Reduce vibration
Goal #2 - Better bass response, "tighter bass" from 80 to 400 Hz.

After doing some research, I decided to move forward and design a mechanical vibration isolation system for an enclosure. My back ground is in mechanical engineeering, so this will not be challenging. Its a cool idea to mechanically filter out vibrations created by the speakers. And no, this is not a new idea. That "magic bus" guy got it right.. 

The vibration is coming from the 80Hz to 400 Hz range, so to vibration isolate at these frequencies, I need a system with a fundamental mode less than 80 hz. i.e., the isolators need to have a fundamental mode below this value. I prefer it to be least two octaves away from 80hz. If the fundamental mode comes out anywhere from 10 to 25 Hz, that will be fine. 

The worst loads on the enclosure will be from hitting a pot-hole (shock load), so I don't want the isolation system to be too soft or else the box will displace too much causing potential interference issues.

Here's the point of no return.. Pics w/ the inner pocket removed. Drilling out the plastic bonds was extremely easy. Notice the amount of volume I have w/ the existing door panels.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Taking the effort to design a vibration system leads into the type of enclosure. After talking to the vendor and studying the specs, building a "sealed" enclosure should provide a good solution. In a perfect world, I would have a .5 ft^3 volume for opitmal results in a sealed enclosure. This is not doable without cutting up the steel door panels. However, taking the minimal volume of .25 ft^3, I am hoping for good results..

Currently reading through the loadspeaker cookbook to get some sanity checks on this project.. I'll write about some observations later..


So, I'm going all out..

- rubber vibration isolators
- sealed enclosure
- polyfill (dampen)
- rubber coating to damp out vibrations

Stay tuned.. Oh yeah, this is a hobby, for those of you that think this is too much work.


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Good luck with the in-door enclosures. Love those kick panels! Wish I had the time, skill, and patience to make some that looked factory like that.


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Cool, I love door enclosure builds! Do work son!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Old Skewl said:


> Good luck with the in-door enclosures. Love those kick panels! Wish I had the time, skill, and patience to make some that looked factory like that.


Yeah, its been fun so far.. I bought a house this year and I have a separate workshop from the three car garage. I have plenty of room which makes it more enjoyable!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok, so here's one of my design ideas..

I didn't want the speaker to hide in the door panel, so it needs to be outside. 

There's not really very many options in positioning this driver. To keep it aesthetically pleasing I wanted to follow the lines of the door panel lines. The enclosure would be perpendicular to the base board, so the bottom edge would be sticking out more than the top edge due to the curvature of the door panel.

Some thought was given to angling the driver...

Overall, I scrapped this idea, mainly because because I didn't like the shape of the enclosure. There's a plastic piece to the right which would force the enclosure to have a "necked" down area. 

In terms of speaker performance, I was not sure if this would negatively effect the sound.. Thinking of it as a "pneumatic circuit" as described in the loud speaker cookbook. 

On to the next idea..


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## 2167 (Dec 5, 2007)

pics of the back of the door card?


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> Ok, so here's one of my design ideas..
> 
> I didn't want the speaker to hide in the door panel, so it needs to be outside.
> 
> ...



Looks like it could be promising

]
Wanna get rid of your door grills???


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

abusiveDAD said:


> Looks like it could be promising
> 
> ]
> Wanna get rid of your door grills???


I won't be needing them anymore!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

This is crazy.. I decide to buy some MLV product from Second Skin only because they do business in my home town. The guys say, "sure, come over and pick some product up."

Turns out they are literally 3 MINUTES away from where I work. I had a great conversation w/ Ken. Also, I picked up a couple of speaker pads for standing waves..


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bginvestor said:


> This is crazy.. I decide to buy some MLV product from Second Skin only because they do business in my home town. The guys say, "sure, come over and pick some product up."
> 
> Turns out they are literally 3 MINUTES away from where I work. I had a great conversation w/ Ken. Also, I picked up a couple of speaker pads for standing waves..


I'm nearby too... but more like 2 hours and 3 minutes away


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Those are some of the best looking kicks I have ever seen.

Very interested to see how the door panels turn out.


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> This is crazy.. I decide to buy some MLV product from Second Skin only because they do business in my home town. The guys say, "sure, come over and pick some product up."
> 
> Turns out they are literally 3 MINUTES away from where I work. I had a great conversation w/ Ken. Also, I picked up a couple of speaker pads for standing waves..


youre lucky
shipping is outrageous


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> I'm nearby too... but more like 2 hours and 3 minutes away


Ah yes..the big city..

Is there audio events happening up there in the next 6 months?


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

2167 said:


> pics of the back of the door card?


?? What did you want to check out?




Chaos said:


> Those are some of the best looking kicks I have ever seen.
> 
> Very interested to see how the door panels turn out.


Thanks! These pair have worked out nicely for me.. I'll be keeping them for awhile unless I can figure out a way to improve my sound stage.



abusiveDAD said:


> youre lucky
> shipping is outrageous


Definitely, however, I think I bought too much product!


Stay tuned, I'll be posting pics of the vibration isolators real soon..


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bginvestor said:


> Ah yes..the big city..
> 
> Is there audio events happening up there in the next 6 months?


There weren't any "audio events" happening here even in car stereo's heyday in the mid-late 90s. :worried:


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Bummer.. I would be interested in competing at some point... Not interested in the SPL stuff..

Tucson did have a small SPL competition earlier this year, but I missed it..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

OMG  I think I bought too much luxury liner (MLV). Its 90 sqft and weighs over 100 hundred lbs!


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

bginvestor said:


> OMG  I think I bought too much luxury liner (MLV). Its 90 sqft and weighs over 100 hundred lbs!


That's a ton of lux liner...usually I use about 25-30 sq ft...couldve got lux line pro


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

south east customz said:


> That's a ton of lux liner...usually I use about 25-30 sq ft...couldve got lux line pro


I have RAAMAT insolite throughout, so I just needed MLV. I will either sell the extra, or use it for the next project car (the wife's). 

She has a Honda Accord and man is that thing loud on the road!


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

i used 3 strips on the floor 
havent done that back wall yet,
you'll have plenty left


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

bginvestor said:


> I have RAAMAT insolite throughout, so I just needed MLV. I will either sell the extra, or use it for the next project car (the wife's).
> 
> She has a Honda Accord and man is that thing loud on the road!


I would seriously see if ken
Would let u swap for 45sq ft of pro. It makes a huge difference


I agree the accord (and any new Honda) are LOUD
Also, it's not an easy fit on MLV in the accord, you basically have to use it in place of the factory jute. U can just lay it over the entire surface. There would be major fitment issues when u put the carpet,console, seats in.
Last time I did one i used a 1/8 ccf then used the MLv in place of jute
Material and every other place I could fit an only used 18sq ft


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's a pic of the vibration isolation system. Using a two piece Neoprene material. #6309K31	(McMaster) Versa-Mount Two-Piece Vibration Damping Mount.

This is working extremely well. going from left to right, 

-washer used to provide rigidity to .25-20 rivet nut 
-two piece w/ a steel sleeve to match the .25-20 fastener (2" length)
-washer to compress rubber 

These are already mounted into the door. I've shown an example of the rivet nut +washer on the back side of sheet metal. Worked great.











Here's a pic of the installed Rivet nut. 











Since I don't need rivet nuts very often, I bought the rivet gun from Freight harbor..

45 Piece Threaded Insert Riveter Kit


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok, here's the point of no return.. I trimmed some plastic. With some imagination, you can easily see what my enclosure will look like... the MDF board that you see will be vibration isolation. The enclosure will grow outward. By the doing this, the enclosure becomes extremely easy to build and can make my .25 ft^3 goal.

I like this design, the plastic door panel will look like it was designed to WRAP around the enclosure..

The midbass is temporarily installed. Apparently, I can't live without music for one day. :laugh:

BEFORE:










AFTER:


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Hey guys..

So, here's some pics of the vibration isolation system.. So far , everything is dropping into place w/ no issues. Putting a lot of thought into the design before cutting mdf helps.

Below is an example of the isolator mounted to the door panel..



















Below is how I cut out the mdf to accept the isolators. The thickness is .25" which sandwiches the two piece isolators..

A piece of .25" fiberglass board would have also worked well. Mdf stiffness is a lot less stiff (elastic modulus) than fiberglass which is still a little concerning to me. The base board will want to "flex" locally next to the mounted isolators. However, the Neoprene material will still be softer..










Here's a pic of the base.. All four isolators are installed.. This boards need only slight modifications before the enclosure is fabbed..


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

So I'm trying to understand. You're building this as an enclosure for your mid bass? I like the adventure of this design. I just am trying to get it. I'll watch for more. Maybe you're gonna help me with mine! I have an idea, but that's about it for now. More important steps before i get to that point! Keep up the great creative work!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

scooter99 said:


> So I'm trying to understand. You're building this as an enclosure for your mid bass? I like the adventure of this design. I just am trying to get it. I'll watch for more. Maybe you're gonna help me with mine! I have an idea, but that's about it for now. More important steps before i get to that point! Keep up the great creative work!


Hey man..

So, what I'm trying to do is kill two birds w/ one stone. Or w/ four isolators! 

Midbass frequencies can create some nasty vibrations. A lot of you folks know what I mean! So, to combat that I wanted to create a vibration platform that will significantly attenuate vibration.

A vibration isolation system like this can attenuate acceleration by 20 to 30 db. The double integral of acceleration is displacement, this will drastically help. Not sure what the relationship of acoustic attenuation is, but I bet its proportional. It also allows the opportunity to use damping materials focusing on the source of vibration.

Sealed vs. IB: I am choosing sealed since I have resources that say that a sealed enclosure generally has better transient response and better bass definition. If your looking for "tighter" bass, this can be a great option.

Its interesting that a lot of speakers are better suited for IB. After studying the thiele parameters. 


The only issues that I am seeing w/ sealed is it significantly increases the Fc value AND it may make it difficult to reach my db levels at certain frequencies. I will be tuning to a B weigh curve. 

I may do a short write-up of my observations..


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Well it all is spanish to me, but I'll watch and learn! Thanks!


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> I may do a short write-up of my observations..


I'd definatley be keen to read this.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Yup.. I'll try and discuss some of the research I've done..

I will be measuring the frequency response of the speakers and will be comparing w/ predictions..

Anyway, on to the pictures.

Here's a mock-up of what the enclosure will probably look like.. This would produce a volume right at .25 ft^3. 



















The enclosure is mocked up to be a constant depth of ~3.25 inches. .This makes for a simple enclosure. Hopefully, the curvature of the box will assist with internal reflections.

The curvature of the door panel makes the front part of the box protrude more than the back end. One benefit is the path length is a better match to the 3" speaker in the kicks.










There's no clearance issue w/ this design! There's still a couple of inches away from the passenger seat. Stay tuned..


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Oh yeah! Tuned in for sure!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok, since I'm going through the effort of building these enclosures, I wanted to double check these QES-670's. I just bought them and they are good sounding speakers. No issues. The mid-bass was there in the IB configuration, just looking for optimal performance.

I went to this site to calculate some quick numbers on the performance to a sealed enclosure.

Speaker Box Calculations

Below is a copy of the numbers. I am focusing on the Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP) numbers.. EBP is equal to the resonant frequency divided by the driver electrical Q. According to the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, a value around 50 or less is better suited for a sealed enclosure.. A value at around 100 is better for ported or Infinite baffle (IB).

As you can see below, the QES-670 is rated for IB at a value of 105. It is recommended for ported only. Actually, CDT has stated this speaker is optimal in a ported enclosure.

In comparison, the well known Dynaudio MW162, comes in at ~96. Not an extreme difference, but this site recommends that this speaker can work for either ported or sealed.

My guess is that the criteria is right at 100 for ported only.

So, the MW162's are better for sealed, than the QES-670's.

I ran many different speaker manufacturers for 6.5" and I'm finding out that most speakers are now designed for IB. I guess marketing has figured out that most folks just want to throw speakers into doors and forget about it.

See the site for basic speaker parameter definitions.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Oh man, I just bought a new set of DynAudio Esotec MW162's! Bought them new BNIB, very excited.. These are top notch speakers.. epper:


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bginvestor said:


> Oh man, I just bought a new set of DynAudio Esotec MW162's! Bought them new BNIB, very excited.. These are top notch speakers.. epper:


Hope you didn't buy those from eBay... 

Kelvin


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Kelvin,

Bought from a member on this forum. There's no way these are fake..



subwoofery said:


> Hope you didn't buy those from eBay...
> 
> Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bginvestor said:


> Bought from a member on this forum. There's no way these are fake..


Sweet then :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


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## Troy9 (Nov 22, 2009)

those are some nice looking speakers there bud! lol...


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Troy9 said:


> those are some nice looking speakers there bud! lol...


:thumbsup: Come back in a few weeks.. I plan to have impulse response comparisons of these speakers in a sealed enclosure..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

south east customz said:


> I would seriously see if ken
> Would let u swap for 45sq ft of pro. It makes a huge difference
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for suggestion, after doing some more research, decided to switch out luxury liner to luxury pro..

Bought about ~150 dollars worth, 4 sheets, 36 sqft. This was perfect for this project!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I had the Friday off, so I decided to complete a side project and get the luxury line pro installed.. Enjoy the pics..

*One layer is installed..*

*
This project was easy, trimming was a snap..*



















*The liner cuts very easy using heavy duty scissors..*



















*I've recently installed the Zed Leviathan II. This is an awesome amp, plenty of power, low noise floor.. In my configuration, the AMP is pushing 1200 RMS watts. 

Note: The wires are NOT fully installed. *


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's some snap shots of the carpet re-install and carpet cleaned!


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bginvestor said:


> Thanks for suggestion, after doing some more research, decided to switch out luxury liner to luxury pro..
> 
> Bought about ~150 dollars worth, 4 sheets, 36 sqft. This was perfect for this project!


Whoa, neat. That looks a lot like anti-fatigue floormats

...that I'm discussing in some other thread...


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## dieselgino69 (Oct 4, 2010)

Nice Build so far.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Making good progress on the enclosures.. The enclosure shape is based on the door panel cut-out. I build out to make my volume goals.










*Used Gorilla glue on this project. Very nice product. Drys clear.*










*The enclosure can be easily positioned..*



















*I will glue the sections to the back board. The top cover will be the last piece installed.*


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

GREAT WORK! 
I made a set of 8" mdf tubes for some Phoenix Gold XMAX 8's way back. So, I know how much work it is to do what it is you've done. Good stuff!!!!!!


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Wouldn't normally follow builds on these type of vehicles, but you have me hooked with the door builds. I'm in the process of trying to work out if i should go sealed or vented for my 2nd go at kick builds.

Gav


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

GavGT said:


> Wouldn't normally follow builds on these type of vehicles, but you have me hooked with the door builds. I'm in the process of trying to work out if i should go sealed or vented for my 2nd go at kick builds.
> 
> Gav





FLYONWALL9 said:


> GREAT WORK!
> I made a set of 8" mdf tubes for some Phoenix Gold XMAX 8's way back. So, I know how much work it is to do what it is you've done. Good stuff!!!!!!


Thanks for the kind words guys.. Its been interesting so far. Things are coming together nicely.. Stay tuned..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

For extra credit, I put some luxury pro behind the seats...


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I ran into a great box program called "ported" v1.8.

website: The Subwoofer DIY Page

Great excel program, the program provides optimal enclosure size for the Thiele parameters and assumptions. With enough input parameters, you can predict output db. 

In the comparison section, you can plot different curves based on different parameters. You can turn off /on different variables like cabin gain, LP & HP filters.

If you have a measurement system, you can measure the transfer function of your vehicle and input it into the spreadsheet. This allows you to multiply the transfer function with different types of speakers/enclosures.

I don't know how far I'll go w/ this program since I already have picked my speakers. :shrug:

Below is an example:

This is a comparison between the QES-670 specification from the manual (Top Plot). The second plot (Bottom Plot) is the prediction from the excel program. After matching up parameters as closely as possible and including the same cabin gain, I get a relatively close comparison. The two curves are for .25 and .5 cubic feet sealed enclosures.










Observations:

1) Why does CDT have a predicted curve versus a measurement as a spec? This is weird for me. I would like to see real data, not theoretical.

2) However, this does allow a better comparison since you know the cabin gain assumptions.

3) Working w/ programs like these are great, since you can play with the variables and see which ones are first order effects in db vs. frequency. For example, I noticed that cabin gain assumptions have a lot of sensitivity. I now see why folks go through the trouble of measuring cabin gain in their specific vehicles.

Talk to you later..


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

I love what you are doing with the doors! After checking out the Magic Bus a year or so ago, I had thought about doing exactly what you are doing, but simple didn't want to pay the price of investing that much time. Looks great so far. Well planned and well executed!

BTW, I have the same issues with resonance in the doors, even after extensive treatment with high end dampening products. I've just settled with it the way that it is. Good luck with the rest of your install!


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Keep it up man! Love the progress. Wish I was making as much progress as you are.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

rockinridgeline said:


> I love what you are doing with the doors! After checking out the Magic Bus a year or so ago, I had thought about doing exactly what you are doing, but simple didn't want to pay the price of investing that much time. Looks great so far. Well planned and well executed!
> 
> BTW, I have the same issues with resonance in the doors, even after extensive treatment with high end dampening products. I've just settled with it the way that it is. Good luck with the rest of your install!


In the Ridgeline, I've noticed a couple of areas that tend to rattle even after using vibration foam in between the plastic door panel and steel door..

First is the handle area, inside the door panel, there's an internal mechanism that touches the outside panel from the inside. I've considered laying a thin foam layer in this area..

Another is the sail panel area. There's components in this area that can rattle..

Overall, its not bad compared to other vehicles that I've dealt with..

I am not expecting rattling issues after the enclosure install!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Decided to install a deflex pad from Cascade.

Used a 3M product instead of Rage.. Worked well, sands almost as good..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's some finishing touches on the enclosure.. I added wood rods to stiffen the panel areas. This will significantly increase the stiffness of the structure. Its a great trade-off of reducing a little volume for stiffness..

Note, I also recessed the back panel a little to allow the deflex pad to be more flush w/ the backside of the enclosure.. I did this to minimize the reduction of box volume..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I wanted the speaker to be well coupled w/ the enclosure, so I used 8-32 stainless screws. I used brass wood inserts as well. From testing, I found that I needed to be careful with these or else the tabs would snap off. Make sure the through holes are not too tight!

Originally, I didn't like the idea of just dropping the dyns onto 1/2" mdf. The enclosure is actually less stiff than the previous install. Not good. However, these Dyns are much thicker than the CDT speakers, so I was comfortable screwing them down into this enclosure without additional baffling. The additional preload from using the 8-32 screws will also help in reducing vibration at lower frequencies.

Tip: Make sure to match drill fasteners or it will also be impossible to install all six screws! :book:

Wasn't my intent, but the pic below appears to have a little artist touch.. derickveliz eat your hear out. 

Getting closer..


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> Wasn't my intent, but the pic below appears to have a little artist touch.. derickveliz eat your hear out.
> 
> *Love it!*
> 
> D.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Nice work. I noticed the mat beind the driver here. In your opinion do you think it may help my install in a sealed enclosure as well? I'll be using 8's. Porsche targa build thread. I've been looking at those just wasn't sure if it would help that much?

thanks have a great weekend,
scott


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Nice work. I noticed the mat beind the driver here. In your opinion do you think it may help my install in a sealed enclosure as well? I'll be using 8's. Porsche targa build thread. I've been looking at those just wasn't sure if it would help that much?
> 
> thanks have a great weekend,
> scott


Hey Scott,

Good question. There are physics behind the design.

See Cascade's ad.










Its more than a damper.. It produces better sound by reducing breakup..

See this definition of break up here: Speaker Terms

*Description of breakup : "Below a certain frequency, say 900hz, the cone vibrates as one piece, much in the same way a piston goes up and down in an engine. Above that 'piston band limit' frequency, the cone vibrates in sections. By the time a wave travels from the apex at the voice coil all the way out to the edge of the cone, a new wave has started at the voice coil. Think of a series of ocean waves. One comes in and crashes against a sea wall, the sea wall generates a new wave that starts back out into the ocean where it meets a wave coming in, they crash together, and for a moment it looks like a stationary wave going up and down, but not travelling. The same thing happens on the surface of the cone. The result is comb filtering and other anomalies that create the texture of the overall sound. Interestingly enough, this all takes place between around 1 and 4Khz, where our hearing is most sensitive. If you look at a speaker plot, you'll notice the response of the speaker is fairly smooth until it gets in this region."*

I haven't found any data of any subjective tests w/ and w/o this product, but I believe its been around for years and years..

Investing in damping and overall better sound quality is a good thing..

Hope this helps..


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

It does help, thanks!

I would really like to know what you think of them once you hear it.

You've heard your speaker choice before, I gather? Though I guess
not in your Honda, so sonics may be different than what you've exp
b4. All the same, any personal exp when you hear them would be
great. Not that its that big of an expense to me. I'm just trying to
allot the space for them.

Cheers,
Scott


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Now things are getting exciting..

Below is a pic of the top cover installed.. The edges got a generous radius..










I really like the Dayton binding posts that I bought from parts-express. I wish I could have a free shopping spree at that store. I could seriously use almost everything they got! :laugh:










Next up is the acousta-stuf that is packed 50% fill. Will be experimenting depending on the results from the measurements.










Next step .. I used Cascade VBX damping product. This is the most expensive paint that I have ever used. It does do a great job of damping based on the applied "thickness". overall, I really like it. Drys very stiff.

It passes the knock-knock test..










Stay tuned for more..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*HOLMimpulse*

I've been REAL happy using the PXA-H100 mic and the HOLMimpulse program for acoustic measurements. There's already a thread that shows the PXA-H100 mic is of high quality compared to much more expensive mics. 

And its cheap! The mic is only $30 dollars and the software is free!

HOLMimpulse website is here: HOLM Acoustics

The HOLMimpulse program is a stripped down version of another software program that supports DSP functions.

The most interesting features that I use are the following:

1) Generates sine sweeps, chirps, and MLS functions through a computers sound car and into the Car's HU. The mic measures the speaker's response.
2) Measure impulse response plots (db vs. frequency) which also provides distortion / phase plots. No limitations on fidelity of plots.
3) Allows time synchronization between different measurements (time alignment of different speakers). Allows the sound card to be calibrated.

This has been invaluable for me. I have used it to identify cabin gain deflections, relative measurements between various drivers, cross over verification /settings, and overall acoustical performance

This is one of the best ways to do measurements on the cheap!

Below is a screen shot of the software. I'll be using this to assess my sealed enclosures. Stay tuned.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Finally... Its installed and looking good so far..

Weight is right at 11 lbs, in-line w/ my estimates. The base board is fully coated w/ Cascade VBX. The plastic interior panel fits perfect. 

There's still several things to do, but allows me to start testing out the drivers. epper:

I think I'm going to pull this off. After rounding the edges w/ filler (driver grill) ,wrapping w/ carbon fiber vinyl, some plastic sanding and polishing, this is going to look great.










I am particularly proud of how I stiffened the door panel. See below, I used an aluminum angle just above the isolated back board. This stiffened up the area by at least a factor of ten! It provides stiffness in several directions which this panel needs.

Tip: Do not hang 11 lbs off unless you have a stiff door panel. It will flex and make shutting your door a bad experience. Right now, I am satisfied w/ this design.










Here's how the driver is positioned inside. No longer is it sitting back in the plastic door panel, and I would expect improved performance from less deflections.











*On to the fun stuff . Taking measurements.. Look for a review on the MW162 in the sealed enclosure.*


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## Troy9 (Nov 22, 2009)

the enclosure looks very promising..great job!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

I gotta ? for ya. In an enclosure like this do you think any benifet can be had by adding sound deadening tiles to the inside? Also, because of the tightish and tight corners what type of material would/could you pour in it to figure out your airspace if you didn't already know? I would think those peanut foam pieces wouldn't conform to the inside vs a smaller type of some sort. Like those air beads type?

I'm doing a sealed door pod also in my build and I'm kinda hung up on both what size I need for my speaker and what material to use to measure.... I really need someone to look at the T/S and tell me what I need...

Thanks in advance,
Scott


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Troy9 said:


> the enclosure looks very promising..great job!


thx.. Stay tuned for my audition..




FLYONWALL9 said:


> I gotta ? for ya. In an enclosure like this do you think any benifet can be had by adding sound deadening tiles to the inside?


Yup absolutely. Anything that can be done to reduce the amount of ringing is a good thing..



FLYONWALL9 said:


> Also, because of the tightish and tight corners what type of material would/could you pour in it to figure out your airspace if you didn't already know? I would think those peanut foam pieces wouldn't conform to the inside vs a smaller type of some sort. Like those air beads type?
> 
> I'm doing a sealed door pod also in my build and I'm kinda hung up on both what size I need for my speaker and what material to use to measure.... I really need someone to look at the T/S and tell me what I need...



I used simple geometry to give me an estimate. Sealed enclosures are more compliant to specific volume requirements. Unlike other enclosures like vented systems, these need very specific volume values to meet resonant requirements.

How can you confirm volume? Well, it won't be too big, use a bag of rice or beans :bulb2: ? Stay away from liquids..

PM'd you to assist w/ your T/S values.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Just in case you guys don't know what a Honda Ridgeline looks like. My desert truck .


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> Just in case you guys don't know what a Honda Ridgeline looks like. My desert truck .


I really like Ridgeliners! they look pretty cool in New England too!


.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Differences in MX levels in Alpine..*

For those of you that have wondered how MX levels from Alpine decks effect sound, your going to love this post. I have one and wanted to investigate the meaning of these levels.

So, I checked them out in the frequency domain using HOLMimpulse. These plots are generated using a sine sweep. Sine sweep generated on the laptop, into the HU unit, the mic measures the speaker output and a frequency response plot is generated (db vs Hz).

Assumptions:

One speaker only: MW162
Everything defeated (no Xovers)
Sweep starting at 20 hz
Mic position is located at center console

I plotted MX levels at no level, level 2, and level 3 on the IDA-x305s

Note: My mic is NOT calibrated, which means care is necessary in interpreting results especially in the low frequencies. Also, there is no SPL calibration, meaning that the plots should be studied on a relative basis.










No level - green curve
Level 2 - red curve
Level 3 - purple

Observations:

1) I can only plot three curves, so I left out level 1. Level 2 increases only at 200 hz and below. Its interesting, that 200 hz and above is the same dB as the "no level" setting. 
2) Level 3 is completing different, it has an even higher gain across all frequencies. Level 3 is approximately 6dB higher than "no level". No wonder why I like level 3.

You guys can ignore my ugly cabin gains. :uhoh2:

Stay tuned for my impressions on the MW162 in a finished sealed enclosure.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Enclosure results!*

Finally, my summary on the enclosure project! It been a couple of weeks since the passenger side enclosure has been completed. Its been awesome listening to the Dynaudio MW162 drivers. And, yesterday, I just finished the "driver" side enclosure. What a difference two MW162's make!

Here's a recap of why I chose a 3-way +sub for my system. It comes down to point sourcing. If I could come up w/ a way to point source a 2way system to provide a good sound stage, I would be inclined to do this (mid range speakers in the doors are awful). However, I didn't see a solution in the Ridgeline. I could not get 5.5 or 6.5" in the kicks or A-pillars. Hence, if I'm using 3 to 4" speakers, we will need a 6.5" or larger to get the midbass range. So, midbasses in the doors are the compromise. The only reason why I didn't go for a larger mid-bass in the doors is limitations on enclosure volumes. In addition, since I always wanted to try out the DynAudio's, this sealed the deal (no pun intended) . These speakers do real well in low sealed volumes.


As you recall, my goals were the following:

1) Put in a vibration system to take out the nasty vibrations that mid bass drives can generate
2) Put midbasses in a sealed enclosure to produce great SQ quality sound that sealed enclosures are known for











Overall, sealed enclosure came in at 11 lbs including everything (speakers, isolators, mdf, connectors). This is within my goals.

The bottom line, I am very happy w/ the overall performance! I can easily hear and feel less vibration on the passenger side w/ the vibration system. 

First, let's cover the isolators. When the first enclosure was completed, I could compare one MW162 in sealed (passenger) versus the QES-670 installed in the door via baffles (drivers). I played mid-bass driven tracks and switched from left to right to compare how the energy is being transmitted into the vehicle. These rubber isolators really paid off, it made a substantial difference. The unsealed driver's side door was producing vibrations that were be transmitted into the B-pillars as well as a few places in the dash the the passenger side was not producing. I could actually feel much less vibration in the passenger. If I had a data acquisition equipment, I would definitely quantify this. I would be very interested in determining the fundamental structural modes. I won't fully know if my vibration problems go away until the plastic door panels are fully installed, but the internal mechanical parts in the doors are ok.

The downside to the enclosures is the weight that the door panels need to support. Substantial rigidity is required.

In the test, I could hear the driver side QES-670 distort before the MW162. I'm pretty sure the sealed enclosure helped the MW162. Below, is a snap shot of the FRF response to the MW162 w/ distortion (lower curve is distortion). The mic is positioned about 1" from the cone to try and eliminate cabin deflections. In this curve, I had the HP and LP cross-overs turned OFF. Nothing mind blowing here, but I am getting the band pass that I am looking for. Distortion looks good. Overall, very happy so far. 










For sound quality, I am equally impressed. I made subjective comparisons, using the Focal test CD tracks. After playing several of drum tracks, it was obvious that the MW162 passenger side was kicking ass in sound quality. This is due to the combination enclosure and driver quality. In fairness, I did not compare both speakers in the same enclosure. No time and no interest. However, the QES-670 is a great speaker.

Yesterday, I installed the second enclosure and man , what a difference two MW162's. Very nice.

I played different tracks and noticed details I don't remember hearing. From Michael JAckson well produced tracks, to Nine Inch nails, I was hearing good sharp detail. 

I hope after more tuning, I get enough mid-bass to "feel" it better in the chest. I may not since the xover cut-offs may not be able to go lower than 80 Hz. Still experimenting, but the cabin gain in the Ridgeline should start higher than 60 Hz due to the smaller cabin volume. I will probably characterize a transfer function of my vehicle after I get the Dayton mic dialed in.


This process is not complete, since I need to tune/blend the subwoofer into the system. This will be the second step to see if this was truly worth it. 

The sealed enclosure increases the Fs value which may limit HP xover cut-offs. i.e., below 80 hz. I am getting more serious w/ tuning, so I am switching out my uncalibrated mic for a Dayton calibrated mic (calibrated by an Acoustics firm). I plan to post as I go along. I'm seriously considering tuning to a specific loudness curve, if so, I'm considering building a vented box to provide higher gain in the lower frequecnies that a sealed enclosure cannot do becuase I don't have enough power. This is challenging due to the limited box shapes and size for my vehicle. Actually, I've never built a vented box in the last twenty years. Its always been sealed. I'm chopping at the bit to make a vented box to test it out. 

I have one designed. Stay tuned for more.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Oh man, the wifey says that I will have piddy 2 as a stocking stuffer this year! epper: 

How can I not integrate this into the Ridgeline? This will push this build log into 2012..


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

whoa, i can't wait to see how you intergrate that intot he panels! that's some tricky work.


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

OH BABY!! Maybe we'll be doing those at the same time! I'm gonna start mine next weekend (Nov 5th). But I'm doing the Galaxy. Good luck man, can't wait to see it. You making your own pans or you getting them from Soundman?


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

scooter99 said:


> OH BABY!! Maybe we'll be doing those at the same time! I'm gonna start mine next weekend (Nov 5th). But I'm doing the Galaxy. Good luck man, can't wait to see it. You making your own pans or you getting them from Soundman?


I wouldn't normally take on a project like this, but sound man has laid everything out.. should be real straight forward. Yes, I would probably get these parts.

I'll get the ipad in December.. so this will allow me to finish the door enclosures, as well as build a subwoofer box. I want to build a vented box to put under the back seat. Have one designed at 30 hz.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Check this picture out.. How can I not put a piddy in the Ridgeline. What do you think?

The piddy has plenty of room to slide in and out on the right side. The only buttons to relocate would be the "hazard" button. No problem.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

"Piddy"? Is that what Sean "Puffy" "Puff Daddy" "P-Diddy" "Diddy" Combs is calling himself these days? The guy needs to pick a nickname and stick with it... maybe something that isn't ridiculous...?


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

bginvestor said:


> Check this picture out.. How can I not put a piddy in the Ridgeline. What do you think?
> 
> The piddy has plenty of room to slide in and out on the right side. The only buttons to relocate would be the "hazard" button. No problem.


Man it was like that area was made for a Piddy Pad DEUCE! The hazard button looks like it would go perfectly right there next to the, what is that a dome light button? Say's door in the middle, on and off top and bottom? To the left of that would be ideal! Provided there's room behind it. 

As far as the pad goes, you could do a fold out application on it, so the whole piece folds forward, you slide it in from the top, then close the piece back on the dash and it looks like there is no slot for it. Maybe an actuator in there to auto open and close it. That's what I'm doing in mine anyway. Just a thought! 

That spot is perfect though! 

DAMN IT! I love my civic but you're making me want a Ridgline now! They're growing on me for sure! 



HondAudio said:


> "Piddy"? Is that what Sean "Puffy" "Puff Daddy" "P-Diddy" "Diddy" Combs is calling himself these days? The guy needs to pick a nickname and stick with it... maybe something that isn't ridiculous...?


Whoops forgot about this one edit: You're not serious are you? Don't wanna mess up a good joke, so HAHAHAHAHAH! :laugh: 

But, in case you didn't really know what we're talking about, Piddy = IPad, Deuce = 2, so it's iPad2. 

Doug over at soundmancaraudio.com started putting these in and, being the clowns that they are, decided to nick name them "Piddy Pads"! So, if you weren't before, now you're caught up!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

scooter99 said:


> Man it was like that area was made for a Piddy Pad DEUCE! The hazard button looks like it would go perfectly right there next to the, what is that a dome light button? Say's door in the middle, on and off top and bottom? To the left of that would be ideal! Provided there's room behind it.
> 
> As far as the pad goes, you could do a fold out application on it, so the whole piece folds forward, you slide it in from the top, then close the piece back on the dash and it looks like there is no slot for it. Maybe an actuator in there to auto open and close it. That's what I'm doing in mine anyway. Just a thought!
> 
> ...


Yeah, I believe a Ipad 2 will be installed in the very near future!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I got my new audio measurement system up and running.. 

I bought a Dayton mic calibrated by an acoustics firm. The sound card is a USB (mobilepre USB) which is working well. The calibration looks good for this sound card. 

Now, its time to take some measurements!

Oh yeah, I have a SPL meter which I will be calibrating as well (not pictured) ...


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## 88_50 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow...nice


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## bigdexxx (Oct 27, 2011)

bginvestor: I have one quick question for you, now that you've used Rammat & Ensolite and now using the Second Skin MLV would you have done it any other way?


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

bigdexxx said:


> bginvestor: I have one quick question for you, now that you've used Rammat & Ensolite and now using the Second Skin MLV would you have done it any other way?


Hey man,

To answer your question, I think "Rammat / Ensolite" and "MLV" are products used in two different applications.

The Rammat is good w/ killing vibration in vibrating panels. The Ensolite is a good product for eliminating rattles between structures. i.e., plastic door panel to steel door. So, I prefer Rammat / Ensolite on the door panels.

The MLV is designed to reduce acoustics (sound levels). This product is best suited for laying down on the floors. Also in locations that have "large" areas.

Some people try to inter-change, but I find using these products in the above applications works best for me.

Hope that helps.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

As I've mentioned, I have a vented box designed for my 10" sub woofer.. I'm pretty excited to build this one and compare w/ the sealed enclosure. This box will help in the tuning process by providing higher db gain the lower frequency range.

Below shows a quick pic of the box profile. This one will sit directly under the seat, so I need angled walls. The side walls are at a 8 degree slant which makes this a pain to build. It was necessary to squeeze out the volume required.

You can see the 4" OD tube that will be used for the port. The design tunes for a 28 Hz system.. Come back, more pics to come!


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

OH YA!!!! WOOHOO!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Your build quality and how fast your work is is GREAT..... love this build!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's a little sneak peak of the enclosure project!

Black carbon fiber vinyl , double stitched w/ silver :thumbsup:


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## Yepvegas (Sep 23, 2009)

Your build is an tempting me to do something like what you have done I just do not know if I have the nerve to cut my door panel in half!!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Yepvegas said:


> Your build is an tempting me to do something like what you have done I just do not know if I have the nerve to cut my door panel in half!!


Yup, I know what you mean, but its just $$:laugh:


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Here's the completion of my vented bass box. Worked out very well.. This was really fun to build.

I decided to stay close to the manufacturer's specifications. A 4" ID , tuned at 30 hz was recommended for this speaker. I decided to go 28.5 hz to stay away from a response peak in my cabin.

I used bass box pro to determine the dimensions based on my constraints. And I had a lot of them! I needed to put this under my back seat, so not much room. 

How does it sound? I like it. I was hooked after hearing the "Tron" song from Daft Punk. The rumbling is deep and powerful. Its not all perfect though, its vented so it has all the characteristics of a vented box, so bass beats in 50 to 80 Hz are not as defined. So, for some songs, I may prefer the sealed box.

The trick will be if I can get the 6.5" mid-basses to blend well w/ this woofer.

Here's the manufacture's specs..










Build pics..





































Part of fun is to verify if the box resonances match to my specifications. This is the next step..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I'm typing this message on a new iPad 2. These are amazing!

I'll be posting soon..


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Yaaaa buddy! Can't wait! Mines at a standstill for while. I'm living through you now my man!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

scooter99 said:


> Yaaaa buddy! Can't wait! Mines at a standstill for while. I'm living through you now my man!


:thumbsup:


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

I am considering using a minidsp 2X8 for my Audio project, but I wanted to test the equipment first, so I bought a 2X4 to create a PC speaker setup.










I have a USB digital signal coming from PC to ministreamer. The PC automatically recognizes this as a sound card. From the ministreamer, goes into the three card stack-up . Minidigi, minidsp, and miniamp.

The miniamp is pushing 2 X 20 watts to satellite speakers. I have analog going into a plate amp for the subwoofer.

I have the 2.1 advanced plug. The software is very cool.

So, far , it works great. If sound is excellent and I can figure out some minor issues using them in a auto application, I will be seriously considering for my Ipad installation!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Finally!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

bginvestor said:


> Finally!


Fantastic! I bet they sound great in their own sealed enclosures!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Fantastic! I bet they sound great in their own sealed enclosures!


plus theirs like no resonance in that box the way he built it, absolutely genius right their.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bginvestor said:


> Finally!


Niiiiice... 

Have you done some measurements [without a subwoofer] to see how low the door enclosures can extend? I'd be thrilled if I could get solid response down to 50 Hz from door-mounted midbasses


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Fantastic! I bet they sound great in their own sealed enclosures!


They sound great! Dynaudio are great speakers..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> Niiiiice...
> 
> Have you done some measurements [without a subwoofer] to see how low the door enclosures can extend? I'd be thrilled if I could get solid response down to 50 Hz from door-mounted midbasses


This speaker / box combination will definitely not go down to 50 hz..

However, I bet you can find a speaker to fit the criteria.. An 8" speaker would be a lot easier for a sealed enclosure!

Take care


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## Stoph (Jan 14, 2009)

Nice way to fill that empty pocket in our trucks  I like it!


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

Stoph said:


> Nice way to fill that empty pocket in our trucks  I like it!


Thanks! It worked out well.. I've been testing these boxes out for over a week and I have no rattling issues! epper:


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Taking measurements / REW..*

I love this new measurement program called REW! I am using it to take frequency response measurements. And its free.

So, here's how my ported box performed. I designed this to have a ~28 hz FS. The ported box would give me high db output at low frequencies.. and boy does it ever! I was amazed the amount of rumbling going on w/ low freq tunes.. check it out..



















Based on my measurement, the actual FS value is about ~23 hz, compared to ~28 hz. The signal above is taken doing a sine sweep w/ only the sub woofer. Measurement taken at listening position.

Not bad considering I didn't verify the actual Thiele parameters of these speakers. The design is a success! I believe I will be keeping this box, I like the way it sounds and I believe I will be able to blend these w/ the mid basses.

Talking about the mid basses, here's the frequency response of the Dynaudio speakers in my vibration isolated box. This is about what I was expecting... the combination of sealed / speakers pushes up the FS value..










Take care.


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

That's great! I don't understand any of it, but it's great none the less! You're very inspiring. I wanna learn frequency so bad!


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

scooter99 said:


> That's great! I don't understand any of it, but it's great none the less! You're very inspiring. I wanna learn frequency so bad!


Maybe you should learn how to finish an install first

Just a thought.....I still got my eye on you:laugh:


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Great build log! Do you have any plots of the impulse measurements you used to setup time alignment/phase between your speakers? I want to try and do that too, but I need to figure out how to get the signal from my computer into my head unit. I think it has some RCA inputs on the back, so I need an XLR to RCA cable I believe. 

For your audio processor from the iPad, you probably want to utilize a digital signal don't you? I recall people using the Bit 1 with them somewhere on this site. You couldn't get that digital in with the miniDSP.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

scooter99 said:


> That's great! I don't understand any of it, but it's great none the less! You're very inspiring. I wanna learn frequency so bad!


Hey man, here's a definition.. Hope this helps..


Frequency response - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

ecbmxer said:


> Great build log! Do you have any plots of the impulse measurements you used to setup time alignment/phase between your speakers? I want to try and do that too, but I need to figure out how to get the signal from my computer into my head unit. I think it has some RCA inputs on the back, so I need an XLR to RCA cable I believe.
> 
> For your audio processor from the iPad, you probably want to utilize a digital signal don't you? I recall people using the Bit 1 with them somewhere on this site. You couldn't get that digital in with the miniDSP.


Yes, I did some preliminary stuff ,but I am waiting until I get the IPad installed.. 

To use REW on the alpine, I needed to get a 3.5 mm male plug, using the Bluetooth connector. I set the deck to Aux. The male plug connects to my mobile pre USB sound card. That's how I send a signal through the system.

For the IPad install, I would probably send the signal through the DSP.

Yeah the popular way to install IPad w great sound is to use a HRT streamer between iPad and DSP.. The HRT is effectively a DACS w analogs out to the DSP..

On my home project w minidsp, I think I can use an iPad camera connection kit plus ministreamer plus mini digi to get digital to the minidsp.. So iPad digital to minidsp.. Will be testing soon..


----------



## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bginvestor said:


> Yes, I did some preliminary stuff ,but I am waiting until I get the IPad installed..
> 
> To use REW on the alpine, I needed to get a 3.5 mm male plug, using the Bluetooth connector. I set the deck to Aux. The male plug connects to my mobile pre USB sound card. That's how I send a signal through the system.
> 
> ...


Doesn't anybody just... listen to CDs anymore?


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> Doesn't anybody just... listen to CDs anymore?


CDs are so 90's .. lol


----------



## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm gonna download REW. I've heard about it for years but never tried it.


----------



## greywarden (Jan 6, 2011)

Awesome job on the enclosures! At what frequency were those Holm measurements gated? I didn't see the marker in your screenshots. Any reason why you're measuring from the console? Shouldn't you measure from the Driver's headrest? Just curious. Frequency response looks pretty darn good.


----------



## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

What is REW, for us lay people?


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

scooter99 said:


> What is REW, for us lay people?


Hey man,

Here's a description from their site. Very cool since its free and its very powerful.

The program allows you to export measurements into other DSPs like minidsp.

REW is a Java application for measuring room acoustics and analysing room and loudspeaker responses. It includes tools for generating test signals; measuring SPL and impedance; measuring frequency and impulse responses; generating phase, group delay and spectral decay plots, waterfalls, spectrograms and energy-time curves; generating real time analyser (RTA) plots; calculating reverberation times; calculating Thiele-Small parameters; determining the frequencies and decay times of modal resonances; displaying equaliser responses and automatically adjusting the settings of parametric equalisers to counter the effects of room modes and adjust responses to match a target curve. 

REW - Room EQ Wizard Home Page


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

greywarden said:


> Awesome job on the enclosures! At what frequency were those Holm measurements gated? I didn't see the marker in your screenshots. Any reason why you're measuring from the console? Shouldn't you measure from the Driver's headrest? Just curious. Frequency response looks pretty darn good.


Hey man,

This was a preliminary measurement. I believe I took this measurement at the console because I wanted to compare the CDT driver in the door vs. Dynaudio driver in the passenge door. The location was equal distant.

Your correct, in tuning, I would take an "average" measurement at the listening position.

There was no gating used for this measurement. I got in the habit of not using gating. My ears will hear the full signal..

Gating makes sense to understand the performance of a driver w/ removing some of the influences of the room/cabin. This is useful for a speaker designer. 

If you know benefits of using gating for tuning purposes, please elborate!


----------



## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

bginvestor said:


> This speaker / box combination will definitely not go down to 50 hz..
> 
> However, I bet you can find a speaker to fit the criteria.. An 8" speaker would be a lot easier for a sealed enclosure!
> 
> Take care


63 Hz, then, maybe? I have some test tones in my iTunes list, and when that frequency starts playing on my 6.5" computer subwoofer, the response is pretty decent. I'm sure your enclosures are capable of doing that a bit more authority, especially with the cabin gain of your truck vs. my bedroom


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*IPAD + minidsp = AWESOME!*

This is very cool!

I have successfully hooked up the Ipad 2 (5.0 OS) to the minidsp. Check it out!

This is all digital into the DSP

Equipment includes:
Ipad --> Camera Connection Kit --> USB Hub --> Ministreamer --> miniDIGI --> mini DSP --> miniAMP

The setup pictured below is a 2.1 setup using the 2.1 advanced module from minidsp. The miniAMP powers the satellite speakers, analog runs out to a plate amp for the subwoofer. 

*Why use the camera connection kit?* This unit allows 16 bit digital out of the ipad although there's some folks on the internet that say they can pull 24 bit w/ the latest ipads.

*Why use the USB hub?* later versions of ipad changed power requirements for USB connections. Apparently the amp requirements went down from 100ma to 20 ma (not confirmed). Anyway for some USB compatible devices such as camera's, storage, or DACS, a powered USB hub is required. Without it, the ipad will bring up a power error message.

*Why use a ministreamer?* The ministreamer allows a digital signal via USB. The output is a spdif RCA that plugs into the mini DIGI.

*Why use the miniDIGI? * The miniDIGI allows a digital signal to pass through the miniDSP board. 

The miniAMP is a class D amp that powers satellite speakers.

Conclusion: This is awesome. Signal quality is excellent. This is the setup for my man cave.. if I don't want to use the Ipad 2 , I take the USB cord and plug into a PC via the ministreamer.

This could easily be put in the car, but this setup doesn't have 2.1 charging for the Ipad. For a cleaner install, I believe maybe a HRT istreamer may be better (power charges), however, if someone is on a tight budget, this is an option. 

Cheers..


----------



## greywarden (Jan 6, 2011)

bginvestor said:


> Hey man,
> 
> This was a preliminary measurement. I believe I took this measurement at the console because I wanted to compare the CDT driver in the door vs. Dynaudio driver in the passenge door. The location was equal distant.
> 
> ...


Well, yes, gating is really more appropriately used in speaker building, that's my main knowledge base. During In-room speaker measurements, you'll gate the measurement to exclude the room reflections. On the impulse response, at the bottom you'll see the first spike, which is the speaker, and the following spikes, which are the room reflections. So in order to "remove the room" from the frequency response you gate it. 

The only issue with gating in a vehicle, would be that the largest internal "length" you can measure (in a car or truck, especially) is, much smaller than a room - usually - in which case, you'd have to gate the response waaaay up. That will show you a more realistic version of what you're hearing from the gated frequency up. 

In most rooms that frequency is 200Hz-500Hz, in fact, alot of designers will exclude the frequency response up to 200Hz and merely splice the amplitude of the box design to that point.


----------



## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Cool stuff! You could use the ministreamer to connect an iPod directly to one of the many processors that offer a digital in too! (as long as you could find the appropriate digital connector)


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

+1 what Greywarden said above. Note that the measurements taken in the truck are not showing the FS of the sub in the enclosure. The measurement is showing the performance of the enclosure PLUS the transfer function of the truck. There is no way to look at that in cabin response and glean the true resonant frequency of the enclosure.

You could use something like a Dayton WT3 woofer tester to accurately test the FS of the enclosure and speaker system.

Absolutely love the door enclosures. I would be tempted to do the same, but I traded in my Ridgeline two weeks ago for an E63 AMG


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

rockinridgeline said:


> +1 what Greywarden said above. Note that the measurements taken in the truck are not showing the FS of the sub in the enclosure. The measurement is showing the performance of the enclosure PLUS the transfer function of the truck. There is no way to look at that in cabin response and glean the true resonant frequency of the enclosure.
> 
> You could use something like a Dayton WT3 woofer tester to accurately test the FS of the enclosure and speaker system.
> 
> Absolutely love the door enclosures. I would be tempted to do the same, but I traded in my Ridgeline two weeks ago for an *E63 AMG*


Me LOVE  

Kelvin


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

rockinridgeline said:


> +1 what Greywarden said above. Note that the measurements taken in the truck are not showing the FS of the sub in the enclosure. The measurement is showing the performance of the enclosure PLUS the transfer function of the truck. There is no way to look at that in cabin response and glean the true resonant frequency of the enclosure.
> 
> You could use something like a Dayton WT3 woofer tester to accurately test the FS of the enclosure and speaker system.
> 
> Absolutely love the door enclosures. I would be tempted to do the same, but I traded in my Ridgeline two weeks ago for an E63 AMG


Very nice!

Very true that the measurement is enclosure + cabin, but I disagree w/ you that there is no way to verify the FS on this enclosure w/ the data that I have presented..

Below is the predicted response of the vented enclosure using the QES 1020 sub woofer. The upper curve is an assumed cabin gain of 12 db/oct rise at 80 hz. The lower yellow curve is no cabin gain. Note, the slope at zero (the peak) is the FS. Very easy to identify. In this box design, the db rolls off quickly below the FS. In this example, its 28 Hz. 

In my measurement, I didn't want to push the sub woofer below 20 hz since I don't have a HP filter. ( should use one for this box design).

Now, you could say, that I didn't present enough data to show the the slope below the FS and so maybe the FS is below 20 Hz. I highly doubt it. I started w/ a vendor specification using the same port diameter, but tweaked it to go from 32 Hz to 28 Hz.

Anyway, I'll bet you lunch that the zero slope in my data is the FS.  Take care.


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

greywarden said:


> Well, yes, gating is really more appropriately used in speaker building, that's my main knowledge base. During In-room speaker measurements, you'll gate the measurement to exclude the room reflections. On the impulse response, at the bottom you'll see the first spike, which is the speaker, and the following spikes, which are the room reflections. So in order to "remove the room" from the frequency response you gate it.
> 
> The only issue with gating in a vehicle, would be that the largest internal "length" you can measure (in a car or truck, especially) is, much smaller than a room - usually - in which case, you'd have to gate the response waaaay up. That will show you a more realistic version of what you're hearing from the gated frequency up.
> 
> In most rooms that frequency is 200Hz-500Hz, in fact, alot of designers will exclude the frequency response up to 200Hz and merely splice the amplitude of the box design to that point.


Thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Hey do you have any plots of your impulse measurements showing the arrival time differences? Just curious.


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

bginvestor said:


> Very nice!
> 
> Very true that the measurement is enclosure + cabin, but I disagree w/ you that there is no way to verify the FS on this enclosure w/ the data that I have presented..
> 
> ...


After seeing your response, I think you are probably on the right track, although the assumption for transfer function is exactly that. I've seen quite a few graphs of different vehicles and they vary significantly. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think that the first graph that you posted was accurately representing the speaker+enclosure response. It is clear that you don't believe that.

An easy way to prove your theory is to take a measurement outdoors in a quiet open area with the mic nearfield and see what you get. 

Hope you don't feel like I am trying to make you seem wrong. You probably know more than I do. Truth is that I admire your work, most of all your "do whatever it takes" approach to getting good sound out of your Ridgeline. Couple that with your dedication to using knowledge and the right tools and I think your work is certainly worthy of attention. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother posting. Keep it up!


----------



## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

Great thread about cabin gain here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/38784-given-cabin-gain-reality-do-we-need-low-fs.html


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

ecbmxer said:


> Hey do you have any plots of your impulse measurements showing the arrival time differences? Just curious.


I plan to post up some plots when I get serious w tuning. Trying to hold out for the iPad install.

I used impulse several months ago to do some prelimary stuff. Played w matching peaks between the right and left mid ranges. 

I got stuck w matching sub woofer to mid basses and midranges. There's issues using sine sweeps. Still need to investigate.

No, I don't have any plots.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

rockinridgeline said:


> After seeing your response, I think you are probably on the right track, although the assumption for transfer function is exactly that. I've seen quite a few graphs of different vehicles and they vary significantly. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think that the first graph that you posted was accurately representing the speaker+enclosure response. It is clear that you don't believe that.
> 
> An easy way to prove your theory is to take a measurement outdoors in a quiet open area with the mic nearfield and see what you get.
> 
> Hope you don't feel like I am trying to make you seem wrong. You probably know more than I do. Truth is that I admire your work, most of all your "do whatever it takes" approach to getting good sound out of your Ridgeline. Couple that with your dedication to using knowledge and the right tools and I think your work is certainly worthy of attention. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother posting. Keep it up!


Thanks for the kind words!


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

rockinridgeline said:


> Great thread about cabin gain here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/38784-given-cabin-gain-reality-do-we-need-low-fs.html


Thanks for the link..

Here's the main reason why I chose a vented box..

Measurements This is data from John Whitledge w his magic bus.

I plan to tune to a B weighted curve. For those that haven't heard of this, you can wiki it. I don't have enough power to generate the db's using a sealed subwoofer system.

Take care and stay tuned!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

the only way to know what the driver/enclosure itself is doing is to take a ground plane measurement (or put the driver off the ground many feet) and take a measurement. Nearfield would be best, though, for this type of driver. 

Note that if you move the driver around in the cabin you'll achieve different results. Further proof of the car's influence. You might be able to get a feel for what the speaker itself is doing by moving it around but it's not worthwhile and doesn't really help. 
In many cases our car is much like a linkwitz transform thanks to cabin gain.


OP, why B-weighting? What level?


I also agree that gating is nebulous in the car. There's no way to properly gate the response and it really doesn't tell you anything other than what the speaker itself is doing. That does bring up a good point, though. Gating a response to determine problem areas of the install itself is a good idea. I actually tested my pillar build outside of the car to see what would happen in different scenarios:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1486639-post1377.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1487038-post1390.html


Good work. I appreciate you actually applying some science and feedback to the community on your build. 

- Erin


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*right Side sealed enclosure..*

Here's a few pics of the sealed enclosures on the driver's side..

So far, so good. Zero vibration issues and the doors close nice and solid w/ no issues of the heavy boxes vibrating the metal door!










One advantage of using kicks is that they are close to the mid basses in the doors which I believe is a very important..


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> OP, why B-weighting? What level?
> 
> Good work. I appreciate you actually applying some science and feedback to the community on your build.
> 
> - Erin


Thanks for the great feedback..

The acoustics field fascinates me, I just wish there was more time in the day to play w/ car audio.. I have two young ones, so its always tough to find time.. If I remember right, you have a young one as well, so maybe you know what I mean. 

Flat response across all frequencies is not for me (personal experience), so I went searching.. 

I have lot of respect for John Whitledge's work and his process makes sense to me. He used the B-weigh curve on the magic bus and it got great reviews by his peers.

I will use this as a baseline. After, I will determine if adjustments need to be made by ear. Also, I am going for a 90 phon curve. 

I like your review on the minidsp's, I am seriously thinking of using them for this project. One benefit is that REW can export data to mindsp 2X4 Or 2X8. 

Take care.


----------



## greywarden (Jan 6, 2011)

If you used the manufacturer's spec's - unfortunately - you're tuning is probably way off. Their published specs are usually rather "optimistic" and companies like TB are the worst, if you've ever looks at their spec sheets and seen the ruler-flat response of every single one of their drivers, haha. 

OTOH, here's a thread on TT that you might find interesting. Charlie Laub is putting together an excel sheet that the user can design crossovers with, then output the parameters of said crossover, to the MiniDSP Bi-quad programming language, along with other devices that use similar programming.

Also, calculating cabin gains relies on so many rediculous calculations, it's easier - and more precise - to define them as copletely random, haha. Were I you, I'd invest in some measurement equipment before moving on to developing crossover points with the MiniDSP. I myself will probably be getting a calibrated Dayon Mic, Blue Icicle, a mic cable, and a mic stand for christmas (for myself, lol -single), so that I can get a little more serious and squeeze the maximum potential from my future builds.

Oh yeah and those door enclosures look insane. I might try something like that on my the Bronco I just bought.

Need Testers/Developers for open-source Excel based Crossover Design Tools - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

bginvestor said:


> I plan to post up some plots when I get serious w tuning. Trying to hold out for the iPad install.
> 
> I used impulse several months ago to do some prelimary stuff. Played w matching peaks between the right and left mid ranges.
> 
> ...


No prob! I'm planning on doing my own measurements soon anyway. I'll be sure to post up some results.


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

greywarden said:


> If you used the manufacturer's spec's - unfortunately - you're tuning is probably way off. Their published specs are usually rather "optimistic" and companies like TB are the worst, if you've ever looks at their spec sheets and seen the ruler-flat response of every single one of their drivers, haha.
> 
> OTOH, here's a thread on TT that you might find interesting. Charlie Laub is putting together an excel sheet that the user can design crossovers with, then output the parameters of said crossover, to the MiniDSP Bi-quad programming language, along with other devices that use similar programming.
> 
> ...


Excellent!

I have a calibrated Dayton mic (not vendor cal, but acoustics firm cal) and it works great. I use it w/ a mobilePre plus laptop using REW. Great little setup.

Thanks for the comments on the enclosures.. It was a great little project.. The design had a lot of little benenfits that added up to making it definitely worth while. I really hated how the speakers set back into the plastic door panel. This defintely caused more deflection issues.

One heads up.. I posted the weight of these enclosures in one of my previous posts. I believe it was somewhere between 10 to 12 lbs. This is quite a bit of weight to add in a door panel. Although I don't believe this is an issue for a truck door panel, the enclosure must be securely mounted to the panel. I used a series of Aluminum angle brackets , very light , and very stiff in bending and torsion. This was critical for making this work. I like a nice sounding door when it closes, and right now, the doors close nice and solid without any residue vibrations.


----------



## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

greywarden said:


> If you used the manufacturer's spec's - unfortunately - you're tuning is probably way off. Their published specs are usually rather "optimistic" and companies like TB are the worst, if you've ever looks at their spec sheets and seen the ruler-flat response of every single one of their drivers, haha.
> 
> OTOH, here's a thread on TT that you might find interesting. Charlie Laub is putting together an excel sheet that the user can design crossovers with, then output the parameters of said crossover, to the MiniDSP Bi-quad programming language, along with other devices that use similar programming.
> 
> ...


Hey greywarden,

If you have any good papers on modern tuning techniques in car audio or home theater, can you PM me or post up a link? thx

Topics like blending 3/4 way speakers using techniques such as group delay or others, level matching, time/ phase matching, design cross over points using measurements (for active setups), and tuning phase issues w/ cross over points. Overall, tuning using measurement systems. 

I swear someone could make some $$ writing a book on this topic, there's not a book that I have found that focuses on this topic in car audio. thx.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

bginvestor said:


> The acoustics field fascinates me, I just wish there was more time in the day to play w/ car audio.. I have two young ones, so its always tough to find time.. If I remember right, you have a young one as well, so maybe you know what I mean.


I'm right there with you. That's why I enjoy doing the driver testing and why I have too much measurement gear sitting around.  

I do my testing after the little one goes to sleep. About the only time I get to.



bginvestor said:


> Flat response across all frequencies is not for me (personal experience), so I went searching..
> 
> I have lot of respect for John Whitledge's work and his process makes sense to me. He used the B-weigh curve on the magic bus and it got great reviews by his peers.
> 
> ...


That's what I was wondering... why 90phon. Is this what Jon specifies? It's a good value to use. You'll have to know that your mic is SPL calibrated; something that most mics are not (including the ones from Herb @ Cross Spectrum). Doing this yourself isn't too hard, but requires a bit of math. 

I would also recommend playing with the loudness feature a bit on your headunit. If your setup has this ability then (again, paired with an SPL calibrated mic) my suggestion is to mimic the loudness curve. Which, is actually what the B-weighted curve follows to some degree. I have a copy of the loudness curve saved at 85dB if you're interested in it. You can use that to load in your software as a target curve. It's in 1/3 increments so the resolution isn't great, but I didn't have the time to do anything higher.


----------



## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

What do you use as your reference to calibrate the SPL level Erin?


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

ecbmxer said:


> What do you use as your reference to calibrate the SPL level Erin?


Here's a quote from REW software that may help.

Calibrating the SPL reading gives REW an absolute SPL reference by entering a reading from your SPL meter while a speaker or subwoofer calibration signal is playing. Alternatively an SPL calibrator may be used.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> I'm right there with you. That's why I enjoy doing the driver testing and why I have too much measurement gear sitting around.
> 
> I do my testing after the little one goes to sleep. About the only time I get to.
> 
> ...


10-4 :thumbsup:


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ecbmxer said:


> What do you use as your reference to calibrate the SPL level Erin?


I actually bought the dayton omnimic setup for this reason. it comes calibrated for fr and spl. I can export the cal file for the mic in frd format and use it with other programs should I desire. The only thing the OM doesn't do is give impulse times; it automatically gates the measurements because it doesn't use a loopback system to measure itself against. The impulse, then, is the 0 point for the measurement. That's the beauty of the system; it's made to be simple so you actually lose this one ability.
You can trick it by using a reference driver at a known distance and sweeping both drivers, but that's kind of fumbled. I actually just use aRTA for this. It seems crazy to have two systems, I know, but OM just makes things so damn easy to do, I live with this one downfall. 

There's a method that SoundEasy suggests using to calibrate for spl and it seems like it was to use the T/S measured sensitivity at 2.83v, then measure at 1m/2.83v and use the difference to add/subtract to your mic's cal file. The problem is trust the T/S given value.


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## greywarden (Jan 6, 2011)

bginvestor said:


> Hey greywarden,
> 
> If you have any good papers on modern tuning techniques in car audio or home theater, can you PM me or post up a link? thx
> 
> ...


I've never worked with an active setup, I plan on it one day, only reason why I won't be getting the OmniMic, because programs like Ultimate Equalizer isn't compatible with it and that's what I wanted to use. If you check out Music and Design's (JohnK's) website, you can see the possibilities of UE, response from 20Hz to 20kHz +/- 0.5dB and ruler-flat phase response throughout as well. Even the CSDs look like a solid block!

Charlie has done quite a bit of active research, He even presented an active setup at the Burning Amp Festival this year, Charlie's Audio Home Page you can shoot him an email, he's a good guy.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

bikinpunk said:


> I actually bought the dayton omnimic setup for this reason. it comes calibrated for fr and spl. I can export the cal file for the mic in frd format and use it with other programs should I desire. The only thing the OM doesn't do is give impulse times; it automatically gates the measurements because it doesn't use a loopback system to measure itself against. The impulse, then, is the 0 point for the measurement. That's the beauty of the system; it's made to be simple so you actually lose this one ability.
> You can trick it by using a reference driver at a known distance and sweeping both drivers, but that's kind of fumbled. I actually just use aRTA for this. It seems crazy to have two systems, I know, but OM just makes things so damn easy to do, I live with this one downfall.
> 
> There's a method that SoundEasy suggests using to calibrate for spl and it seems like it was to use the T/S measured sensitivity at 2.83v, then measure at 1m/2.83v and use the difference to add/subtract to your mic's cal file. The problem is trust the T/S given value.


Right. You would need somebody to actually measure your speaker to give you the accurate T/S specs. 

When I bought this behringer mic and Tascam preamp from the guy on PE techtalk board, he was really helpful and actually took a measurement of a random speaker he had with a more accurate, calibrated mic and shipped the speaker on a wood baffle to me along with his measured results. I actually forgot about it until I read your post. It's sitting down in my garage. I need to scan the sheet in and import the data to Excel. Then I should be able to measure the same speaker with my mic and determine a calibration from that. Only thing is I don't recall how large of a frequency range it covered. It was a little 2" speaker I believe.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Update on side project..*

Hey guys,

So I wanted to post up a status of my side project for the man cave. I have a few audiophile friends that are REALLY into home theater. They highly recommended buying this DIY kit from gr-research for a small room. Its a mini monitor setup that I will use in the man cave. I plan to blend these speakers to a subwoofer using a plate amp. 

Here's a pic of the kit. I cut all the mdf last week and its ready to be built. This kit has everything down to the last screw! You build your own cross-over.

For $239, its a good deal. website is here: A/V-1 The owner has designed the "speakers" and "cross over network". This is an excellent choice for folks that don't want to spend the time to design a cross-over to match a set of speakers/enclosure/room conditions. His speakers are built to his own specifications. The mid range is apparently a derivative of the Peerless design. He even matches tweeters in this price point. 

We'll see how good they sound!










Below is a short description from their website.

The A/V-1 is a mini-monitor that is the result of continuous on going development. The latest version of this speaker, using the M-130 woofer and new GR-T3 tweeter, reaches a new level of performance. 

The performance of earlier versions can be and has been compared to some of the best mini monitors available, and the latest revisions make it an even greater stand out. Yet, its low price makes it affordable for even modest budgeted systems.

This speaker is ideal for small to mid-sized rooms in a high-end, two channel applications. It's also well suited for the high-end, home theater application used as left and right mains, left and right rears, and as a center channel.

Its -3db down point of 55Hz makes it easy to blend with a sub and the use of a sub-woofer to extend the bottom end response in a system using A/V-1's is recommended.


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*iPad + Alpine x305s*

Man I love my IPad.. I Skype, make music, email, Watch movies,and my kids love playing the games..

It's actually going to be hard to keep the iPad in the truck for any period of time.

I decided to plug the IPad into the x305s HU and I was surprised that it worked quite well!

It sync w the iPad w no issues and I was able play Pandora easily. Full functions off the HU which is a plus..

I can switch over and play music directly from the the IPad which means I can play some of my 24 bit music since I have an App that converts. 

Apparently the x305s uses the BurrBrown chip w the IPad signal. The sound gain was good and sound quality using Pandora was surprising.

This is making me double think if I should even install The IPad in the dash!? 

The major downside is using the limited tuning capabilities of the PXE-H100. However, the limitation is raising and lowering many peaks in the frequency domain.

I think I will start tuning using my existing system and see how much I like it. In 2012, I won't have as much time to spend since I have several real estate projects to work.

Stay tuned for the tuning process.

On to the pics..


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## bginvestor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: Update on side project..*



bginvestor said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I wanted to post up a status of my side project for the man cave. I have a few audiophile friends that are REALLY into home theater. They highly recommended buying this DIY kit from gr-research for a small room. Its a mini monitor setup that I will use in the man cave. I plan to blend these speakers to a subwoofer using a plate amp.
> 
> ...



In case you guys were wondering how this side project came out, check out finished product! I like them.. I used carbon fiber vinyl to wrap the sides... front and back was textured and painted flat black. 

The cross-overs were a pain to build since I didn't have the proper equipment.

These are going to work just fine.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Bump!


.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Wow, those look really nice. I really look forward to your listening impressions,
what are you using as a reference speakers?


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## 2019_RAM (Jul 10, 2020)

Total shot in the dark here - but any chance you have the kick panel build pictures still? Unfortunately it looks like the fiberglass forum is shutdown. Very impressive!!




bginvestor said:


> This site is evil, after lurking here for awhile, I got the fabrication bug again, so I'm going to upgrade the system! It will take awhile, but should be interesting..
> 
> The original install was done on the 2007 Ridgeline. Fortunately, I can leverage off of the initial install.
> 
> ...


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