# Mattyjman's Audio Quest



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Where to start.... ? I've been through a lot of cars, and a lot of varying systems. I'd like to think that there is a pinnacle that can be achieved in car stereo, within a certain means and margin, and this is what I'm striving to achieve. Obviously, this also includes a certain amount of compromises, both to aesthetics, locations, and sound quality results. 

While I know this build won't be perfect (i have no illusions about that), I also know I can get it pretty darn good by following some simple rules:

Understand install limitations
Get the best gear for a car installs (expensive doesn't always equal best)
Take time in installation procedures
RTA locations to understand best options for superior results
Create a high quality product - take pride in your work

This is how I plan to finish out this hobby, at least for this vehicle. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to get the exterior looking how I want, the engine running how hard I want, and now it's time to get the stereo right. 

The limitation: It's a convertible, It's a small car. 


To kick this off, I'll show you where I'm coming from, and where I plan to go. After a few pictures you should be caught up to modern day (I started this about a month ago)

The car:









Old System (Installed by Jon Kowanets - HandCrafted Car Audio)



























































Pretty nice, right? 

Well, here were my thoughts:
The HAT drivers are nice, don't get me wrong. But they sounded cold and sterile. They did everything right, technically, but overall they were boring. I found myself turning the stereo down more often than not, only for fun songs that i wanted to jam out to I would turn it up, and then right back down again. They were fatiguing. 

As far as the stage was concerned, the dash humps i think caused some smearing of the stage with the tweeters firing more off axis. The L4SE's were good, but didn't blend well with the midbass (L6SE's). They required a 500hz highpass in order to sound right, but then the midbasses caused some rainbowing of the stage since they were playing so high. Having multiple drivers in the doors didn't help either. 

Midbass was actually pretty weak. Months later I installed a pair of ID X65's, which was better, but then the doors were buzzing pretty bad, despite the deadening that had been done to them. 

The subs blended well, but i believe due to the way they were firing through the skipass, there was some sort of cancellation or bandpassing/loading effect that was created. In order to get "regular" subbass, some massive eqing in the 40 and 50hz range was needed, which was odd. Massive eqing isn't good anywhere, so that needed to change. 

Then the trunk... I wanted it this way, but after not having one, i really like having a trunk. At the very least I needed to change the way the amps were configured, so I could actually have some space. The amps are great, and I'd still be using them, if I didn't have an opportunity to make a great deal on some other big guns 

I'll admit it... I was a "place it and pray" kind of guy. I think had I put a bit more thought into layout I could have saved myself a bit of time. Notwithstanding, here we are... Starting over. 

I couldn't be happier, I love this stuff, but for the sake of my wife, my next audio journey must be my last one. She hates having the car apart. The smell of resin. The sawdust. Just the sheer mention of car audio makes her shudder. I respect her enough to move on if it means that much to her.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

One of the reasons I am starting this log now, is many people have been asking me, after seeing my "for sale" threads, what I could possibly be moving towards. 

So before I do tell, I would like to first thank those that have answered my endless questions and configurations possibilities. You know who you are, and I think if you read the first post, I think you'll understand why I've been a little anal about what I'm putting and where. 

Next, I wanted to share some posts that seemed to resonate with me... and oddly enough, this whole section comes from Lycan's "Kickpanel Pro and Cons" thread:



> Originally Posted by demon2091tb
> Is synching up pairs of drivers with TA ok to get a uniform PLD between all drivers on a singular plane perpindicular to the dash, basically alighning the whole soundstage to the depth of the mid under the dash.....Does this make sense and actually hold water to being a good starting point to realistic depth??
> 
> 
> ...





> It's generally been my experience that kicks offer better tonal qualities than do dash mounted drivers. The fr deviations due to diffraction and obstruction can usually be overcome quite effectively with an eq, whereas it's much more difficult to correct tonal imbalances due to heavy reflections off the glass and dash.





> see that ... it was my (self-assumed) responsibility to present the pros & cons without expressing my personal preference
> 
> But here it is. First, the qualification that i have NOT heard the best kickpanel incarnations out there. But I have heard many, and my simple conclusion is this : mid-bass drivers in doors, mids in kicks and tweets up high represent the best compromise for mypersonal taste Tweets down low cause a low stage in my experience, that the best tuning i've heard can't completely eliminate. My attention is simply drawn downward by low-mounted tweeters.
> 
> ...





> Here's how I look at it Mark ...
> 
> Let's first assume that we agree with the premise that we care about both front seat passengers at the same time (that's far from universal, i might add, but it is important to some).
> 
> ...





> I believe that longer pathlengths in a car may create a situation where the intensity of direct sound vs. reflected sound is less severe. That tends to give the impression of more space.
> 
> I don't think pathlength differences are all that important, especially with time alignment so readily available. However, having equal pathlengths does help mitigate alot of problems besides time arrival, such as intensity, and ratio of direct to reflected sound at the listening position provided the drivers are aimed similarly toward one position. Which is one of the reasons why I don't like kickpanel installs where the drivers are aimed in a crossfiring manner in an attempt to create a stage for both passengers... in many cases you will have the passenger side speaker aimed nearly at the driver, but the driver side speaker about 45 degrees off-axis from the driver which I don't think creates an optimal listening environment for the driver.





> admittedly, i've confused a couple points ...
> 
> As we've explored, one of the downsides of mounting drivers "up high" is that, in a car, "up high" means a more reflective local environment ... more glass up high, no way around it. Whereas kickpanel mounting allows for the possibility of some (perhaps limited, given midrange wavelengths, but not altogether uneffective) treatments of local reflecting surfaces ... under dash, floor, kicks, etc.
> 
> ...





> "_Originally Posted by azngotskills
> Thanks for all the information guys and I have learned quite alot...BTW i think i saw pics of tweet and mid install by werewolf so i think i know where he stands I have a few questions:
> 
> 1) Does a tweeter have certain characteristics/specs that are indicative of better performance in kicks vs a-pillar or is it mostly vehicle specific?
> ...



This is most certainly not "my" bible, but it has given me i think a solid "jumping" off platform to work with. Speaker testing and aiming, enclosure options... those are all things that still need to take place to ensure the best possible locations given my restraints.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm going out for a walk with my wife, so I'll leave with this, and then some photo's tonight:

Head Unit - Factory (Running a MOST optical signal, no reason to change it)

Adapter - MoBridge DA1000 - converts the MOST signal into a toslink optical signal

DSP - Modded BitOne.1 by Matt R. (details on this later)

Amps:
TRU Line8IS - fully modded
TRU 4100S Stage 4 Mods
TRU 2200S Stage 4 Mods
TRU 2200S Stage 4 Mods

Speakers:
Scan R3004
Scan 12MU
Scan 18WU

Sub: Dynaudio Esotar 1200

Deadening:
Sound Deadener Showdown MLV, CCF, CLD 

This should turn out nice


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Can't wait to see this .


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Holy damn what an equipment list.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You rocking 19s on the car?


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## Audio-Concepts (Mar 29, 2011)

Definately tuned for this! Tru and sexy Bimmer, good stuff right there!


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm loving the equipment list  looking forward to the install!!!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> You rocking 19s on the car?


yes sir


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> You rocking 19s on the car?


yes sir 

Okay, so first up -- BitOne Details

A special thanks to Matt Roberts for hooking up this processor for me. 

The Bit One got the following upgrades:

New opamps (Linear Technologies LT1215)
New coupling caps (polypropolyne on midrange ch, Elna silmic2 on all other channels)
New Master clock (Fox ultra low jitter osscilator)
New dedicated shunt power supply for osscilator (Dale 1%resistors, tl431 shunt regulator, Elna, Panasonic and Wima caps)
New power supply input filter caps (Panasonic FM and Poly)
New +- analog audio power supply filter caps (Panasonic FM, Poly and Elna Silmic2)
New DAC power supply filter caps (Panasonic FM, Poly and Silmic2)
New dsp power supply filter caps (Panasonic FM, poly and silmic2)


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I've been working on all aspects of the build, to maximize my time in the build. As such, I have made good progress on most, but nothing is close to complete. In order to catch up, I'll provide pics based on what I was working on, but moving forward, it'll look like a mishmash of projects. 

Sub:
In wanting to preserve as much trunk space as possible, I opted put a sub IN the skipass, and use the existing framework for an enclosure. I could use the sub in IB configuration, but I don't like the idea of all the moving parts in the trunk coloring the sound. So, my goal turned to building a AP enclosure. The benefit here is that you can tune the box and the woofer response with simply changing the amount of venting material used. 

I started with two pieces that make up the ski pass. Instead of rebuilding an entire enclosure, I thought it would be nice to utilize the existing plastic, reinforce with fiberglass, and that should save me a bit of time. 




















--the nice thing, is that the sub doesn't protrude out of the skipass at all... which means no box taking up room!

First order of business, as the two pieces would "slide" together, was to get all the mounting tabs and misc gunk out of the way. This way I could build some mounting flanges that will allow me to bolt up the two pieces of the box.





































once that was completed, I needed to create a flat surface for the molding of the flanges... (looking back now, i could have done this with wood, probably would have saved me some time)

i used cardboard and wax paper... gave me a nice flat surface


















i used some heavy material to make sure the molds didn't warp or make weird shapes while curing










then after ...


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

in for this build. i am excited for you matt! wat are you doing to the hump???


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i reinforced the edges with kyntex/weave combo










after curing, i trimed the inside so i could get a good flange to bolt the two sides together...




























problem...









the bottom of the magnet just barely hits the edge of the flange... that needed to get trimmed










and then a test fit










then to check clearance of the surround and magnet










after moving the ring back a few times, i feel confident in getting a good positioning for the ring, so i can now reinforce the sides, and do the top part of the enclosure

last bit of progress on the sub was to check fitment of the two pieces of the enclosure:



















everything lines up as it should, however the reinforced layers of kyntex warped the flanges a bit, just the wrong way. so there is a small gap around where the two flanges meet. I'll use some butyl rope to create a good seal, and then an assortment of bolts and nuts to clear the gap... should work just fine. 

now i need to make the back portion for the ap vent, attach, reinforce the sides, and we should be wrapping that up to look nice and stock looking


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

req said:


> in for this build. i am excited for you matt! wat are you doing to the hump???


what hump?


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

SUB-scribed!


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

danno14 said:


> SUB-scribed!


^x2


Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> Speakers:
> Scan R3004
> Scan 12MU
> Scan 18WU





Sub'd. 


Hope my words of wisdom will help you out in this build. Maybe you can learn from the stupid stuff I've done. This definitely looks like it's going to be a great technically inclined thread. Me like!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Subscribed. This is going to be sick!!!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Kickpanels...

This is where I have been spending most of my time. As this is a small car, and I don't want to use the doors anymore, i needed to find a way to mount the 12mu and the 18wu in the kick panels. There really wasn't any other option. The 12mu's are deep, and with the shallow dash and pillars, there really isn't a way to do the tweeters and the mids in the dash... under the kicks they go.

I'll spare you guys the photos of me playing around with possible locations and just jump right into it...

this is the goal... something like this, of course i still need to play around with aiming and exact locations, but based on previous results and compromises i need to make, it's probably going to end up something like this.










unless i want no leg space in the footwells, i need to find a way to build an enclosure that minimizes the depth that they protrude out... not to mention the 18wu's need AN enclosure of some sort. Looks like I'll need to be working out an AP enclosure on these as well. 



















using a scope to check out the inside



















and lastly, yes... I'm cutting the kick panel out 




























there was some internal bracing and stuff that we didn't foresee, so the cutout wasn't nearly as big as it needed to be. i'll have to work around that...


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i taped up the edges with some double sided tape to keep things from getting scratched, etc... when it comes in contact




























time to make the molds... 

masked up and glassed:













































pulled the molds out


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

prepped for more reinforcements



















trimming molds



















the issue with the molds is they didn't provide me with as much depth and width to make things perfect. i made some spacers out of 3/4" birch ply, sized things up in the pod, and glued the rings where needed. there is enough depth to cut off the back of the mold and create the ap vent


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

same thing on the other side:


















problem with both sides are the wire bundles... they are a little thick and protrude a bit to much, so i have a solution for that:










unwrap the bundle so it'll lay flat










and then wrapped in ccf to protect the wire. after checking to make sure everything fits, i wrapped the ccf with tape to make sure the wires stay put












unwrap the bundles, so they lay flat! fits nice and snug now...

on the driver side, i'm guessing this is how the mids will end up... either that or pushed against the firewall, and i'm guessing that will end up with lots of nasty reflections, poor response, etc... but i won't know for sure until i test them


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> As far as the stage was concerned, the dash humps i think caused some smearing of the stage with the tweeters firing more off axis. The L4SE's were good, but didn't blend well with the midbass (L6SE's). They required a 500hz highpass in order to sound right, but then the midbasses caused some rainbowing of the stage since they were playing so high. Having multiple drivers in the doors didn't help either.


did you try the tweeters in the oem location?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

A-pillars:

first, salvaged the a pillars from the previous install... then cut out to increase the width of the tweeter mounting options



















i layed down the dash mat (didn't have one before, got one now  ) and then masked off the surrounding areas




























then glassed










after a few layers of chop










after more layers:










all trimmed up


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i over built the mold to give me variety of mounting options... i was also going to sink the tweeter in and use a mixture of open cell foam and ccf to minimize reflections



















after wrapping it up (just a test wrap)




























after getting a long hard look at this, and how it was forming, i have scrapped the concept... compromises, right?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

time to start over 

masked up



















prepped










glassed 



















i pulled these molds today, and they are ready to be trimmed and reinforced.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

that brings us up to full speed... those who are joining for the long haul, this will probably be a long build... between 60 hours a week for work, and my wife, i don't have much time to speed on through this. despite that, it seems as though we are making some pretty good progress. 

i'm excited to get things wired up so i can start testing locations and see what i have to play with... 

so i need to get working on the amp rack... should be fun, I have a few things up my sleeve that should look great. we'll see how that plays out


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## 1edgekilla (Feb 17, 2011)

first reaction.. I'm like a little kid on Christmas reading through this. Looks awesome and can't wait to see more!

Good luck Matt!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

First reaction.....holy crap, is that your wife helping you??? I mean, she has gloves on and is actually helping!!


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> First reaction.....holy crap, is that your wife helping you??? I mean, she has gloves on and is actually helping!!


^^^^^^ This....and subscribed.


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

Very impressive! Quick question: do you believe you will run into any issues with your midbasses breathing with all of those spacers?


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

Happy to finally see this up! Can't wait to see progress!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> First reaction.....holy crap, is that your wife helping you??? I mean, she has gloves on and is actually helping!!





Notloudenuf said:


> ^^^^^^ This....and subscribed.


Not everything is as it seems... she wanted to paint the cabinets in our guest bathroom, so she's working on that.... the most she does to help with the car is getting me a tool when I need it, holding something for a second, approval for items in the "looks" department, and riding to home depot with me... I would love it if she was, but she's not really hands on with the audio


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

The A Train said:


> Very impressive! Quick question: do you believe you will run into any issues with your midbasses breathing with all of those spacers?


I wasn't... should I be?... the ap vent will be behind the drivers I thought that should provide the needed airflow. From what I understand the ap enclosure should be as small as possible so the vent can have the most influence on the driver parameters ... I could be mistaken though


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Subscribed...

I like your choice of equipment.

I thought the same thing A Train mentioned about your deep baffles, but I'm not sure if this applies with AP enclosures.

I also respect all the time you're putting in... takes patience to start all over again (tweeter pods).


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> I wasn't... should I be?... the ap vent will be behind the drivers I thought that should provide the needed airflow. From what I understand the ap enclosure should be as small as possible so the vent can have the most influence on the driver parameters ... I could be mistaken though


I dont have experience with AP enclosures but i know that all of the diy home audio guys chamfer the back of the baffle to let the drivers 'breathe.' this seems like the exact opposite, close to a sealed back mid.


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

did you try the tweeters in the oem location? it seems like your doing alot of work to get the exact same imaging youd get there, and with less reflections to boot


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## Thrill_House (Nov 20, 2008)

perfecxionx said:


> did you try the tweeters in the oem location? it seems like your doing alot of work to get the exact same imaging youd get there, and with less reflections to boot


I second this.


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Subscribed


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Okay, here's something that I failed to mention earlier, that may shed a bit of light on why i was choosing different tweeter locations than the factory sail panels. 

This is my opinion, and it's based off of the cars that I have heard... Many cars that I have heard that rely heavily on T/A (due to poor locations) seem to have that "sweet spot" effect. You move your head slightly, and bam, things are out of phase, imaging is off, etc. Some cars are worse at this than others, but one thing that I "think" solves this problem is how close you get to minimizing (and maximizing) PLD's for the speakers in the car. theoretically, the closer you get to having a two seat car, the less you have to rely on t/a to give you a sweet spot, thus my decisions to move the tweeters to the dash. 

Does this make any sense, or am i completely off base here?

That, and these are ring radiators... the response plots indicate on axis will be best. testing is yet to be done, but i'd be surprised if they would sound good in the sails "off" axis


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Put them in some smallish waveguides.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And I know a guy who is getting one to pop a few out in fiberglass for his own car.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Put them in some smallish waveguides.


i don't follow...


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

look good matt, i would use Cloth rather than chopstrand mat though, but thats just my preference, mat gets all over the place and is icky and i like the way cloth lays


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^oddly enough, i prefer the way that chop wets out... i find that if my brush catches the weave just the wrong way, it'll lift up the whole layer, and i'll have to roll out all the bubbles again. perhaps my cloth isn't heavy enough or something, not sure. 

i did place an order last week with us composites for some heavier cloth and chop mat, resin, and glass bubbles, so we shall see if that was the problem


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

im with you matty. 

i hate when a whole strand pulls the weave mesh out if you catch it wrong.

chop mat when ripped apart sets into corners very well and even.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i know what you mean hehe, i guess i have just gotten used to working with Cloth over the years, especially on delicate stuff like this, i know i can ensure a completely even initial mold  but i know plenty of people like mat hehe i just dont like it getting everywhere during the tearing process 

i use pretty light cloth, it hink 7.6oz? or 5.8 i have to double check. but i dont really use brushing motion so there wont be the issue of catching a weave.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> i know what you mean hehe, i guess i have just gotten used to working with Cloth over the years, especially on delicate stuff like this, i know i can ensure a completely even initial mold  but i know plenty of people like mat hehe i just dont like it getting everywhere during the tearing process
> 
> i use pretty light cloth, it hink 7.6oz? or 5.8 i have to double check. but i dont really use brushing motion so there wont be the issue of catching a weave.


i hear you about the mess after tearing the chop...

i've always wondered this, and it appears in your log as if you are THAT good with working with coth, but do you use pieces, or find a way to overlay the initial first layer with just one big piece of cloth? as in my a-pillars... could you have done that with one piece? 

just curious...


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

subd

and +1 on working as hard as you can to minimise PLD's.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

little teaser / amp porn... sign of things to come tomorrow hopefully


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

Did you powdercoat them?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Huh? the amps? No way... I love the aluminum look on the amps


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> Huh? the amps? No way... I love the aluminum look on the amps


Yeah, 2 of them look like it.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

funny you should mention that... did you ever notice that the 2200's are a shade brighter than the 4100? the chassis of the 4100 is a smidgeon smaller too, which i thought kind of odd.


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> funny you should mention that... did you ever notice that the 2200's are a shade brighter than the 4100? the chassis of the 4100 is a smidgeon smaller too, which i thought kind of odd.


Yes I did. The 4100 was produced before the 2200s. I was told that it was a change of cnc supplier.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i hear you about the mess after tearing the chop...
> 
> i've always wondered this, and it appears in your log as if you are THAT good with working with coth, but do you use pieces, or find a way to overlay the initial first layer with just one big piece of cloth? as in my a-pillars... could you have done that with one piece?
> 
> just curious...


if i can get away with one piece, i would do one piece, but very few times i can do that so i do use individual small pieces.

i just like the fact it goes on so smooth and even, and yo dopnt have the issue of strands clinging to brushes after a while. i have really never had a situation where i felt chopstrand was easier to do personally. I just did a set of really really tight and tough dash pods, and i can shoot you some pics of that with cloth.

b


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ please do... i'd like to see it


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

It never ceases to amaze me how little i can actually get done on a saturday. As I mentioned earlier, today's project was to get all the electronics in and wired up so i can have a system base to start testing the results of my intended speaker locations. 

So today's objective consisted of starting the false floor for the amps, finding a spot for the Line8is, and running new wiring to the speakers up front. 

Here is what my trunk looks like (the cutout was from the previous install) 









and the tub below houses the electronics for the convertible top. with that in the way, and about a 1.5" depth, there isn't much that this can be used for. 










This was the concept I was toying with. Only problem was that the amps were about 1/2" too big for all three to fit evenly. This means cutting a bit of the trunkside plastic, and some creative work. 










I started by using a 3/4" mdf board to give me the flat surface i would have with the false floor










and using a straight edge, i marked out where i would need to cut the plastic. 










and all marked... this picture is funny looking










with that out of the way, they do fit, but its still really tight. 










time to make a template for the floor. i used the factory trunk liner as a guide, and traced onto cardboard. 










after trimming, it looks like i still have a bit to do still










all flush


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

now with all three amps










I decided i didn't like the tight fit, and cosmetically I think i came up with something that is a bit better










took the template out and cut my base ... i'm using 1/2" baltic birch. there will be sufficient mounting points from the base of the car to the base of the false floor










at this point i got really moving, and forgot to take pictures. in the interim, i had test fitted the bottom of the rack, and it looked good. i layed out the amps where intended and started to draw out dimensions for a beauty panel. This panel will be covered in 3M Dinoc and should keep the aggressive theme throughout the car.

here you can see the beginnings of the beauty panel










and a rough cut... i don't know how you people do this with a jigsaw and get straight cuts?? 










after some sanding i got it looking decent enough to be covered tonight

i sprayed the rack where any light could get through










and mounted the amps










and all wired up ( I need to get some speaker terminals)


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

trimmed the smiley face 









and finally with the rack in the car doing a test fit... i overlayed the beauty panel to give you an idea of what that will look like










other objective was the Line8is...

i needed to get power, ground, and remote to it, and find placement that will give my access to the gain pots when i am level setting the amps. 

the previous set up utilized the factory metal bracket as a support for the MoBridge DA1000 and the Bitone. I pulled it out, and added a layer of ccf and mlv... more so for vibrations than anything else. 










I secured the line8is to the existing rack, and spent some time managing the cables










back in the car










with the factory plastic in place you won't know it's there



















that's it for now.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

just wrapped the piece... it's obviously not finished, but when the amps are going to be displayed, you'll see this border around the amps...


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Looking good man!


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Nice... real nice. 

Still looking forward to the kickpanel dilemna.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

fish said:


> Nice... real nice.
> 
> Still looking forward to the kickpanel dilemna.


and you shall have your answer  

Today i wanted to get the amps wired up, so i could start playing with locations and RTA, get some figures. 

so i pulled out the old wiring, and reran 14ga wiring throughout. 

a note when doing stereos... don't skimp on stuff that is a pain in the ass to pull out and redo... 

bundles ready to run...









the old stuff i pulled out 









and a comparo shot









I got the amps wired up, the rack in, power and ground run, and the cat5 cables temporarily in to start listening. 

I purchased the 1/24db octave TRUERTA app, and I was assuming an instant download link or something, but I still haven't been sent anything. 

So, no RTA at this point, but I was able to try 6 different locations/tweaks for the mids...

First was my intended spot... in the kicks, forward of the midbass locations










Listening for a bit, I liked this initially. It was pretty good, and a fair result overall. Staging was decent, center ccould be accurately achieved, althought a bit low... about where the nav screen is... 









The second I tried was same spot, but off axis. this greatly enhanced the presence of the stage, but the staging was a bit more difuse. The stage was lower than when the speakers were on axis. Overall it sounded like this location would require much more eq. 










third location was pushed up under the dash and pointed towards the opposite listener. this had a better depth and staged better than the other 2, but the height was even lower. oddly enough, this had an extreme right bias which was weird. everything evened up when i put my left foot near where the dead pedal used to be.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

4th location was one that i was a bit timid about, but was willing to try. bikinpunk and bing both recommended i would probably have better success with the mids on the dash. this was with both speakers perpendicular with the dash. This means that the passenger side is 30 degrees off axis or so, but the driver side was on axis. 

so, the results are in... HOLY ****. Almost night and day vs the other three in all regards. It sounded like I would need less eqing, some simple t/a brought in the center stage like i have never heard it before. I literally thought i had a speaker in the center and two on each of my mirrors. The sound was incredibly spacious, depth was great, and width was stellar. I had so much fun with it that i started playing other songs... for quite some time. 









After that, I tried the passenger side speaker on axis with me, which was odd. It had less defined staging, and I lost some width? I thought the opposite would be true,and that I would have found an increase in those values. 









Last position was with the driver side off axis 30 degrees, and passenger on axis with the driver. thinking about it after the fact, this is basically a repeat of position 4, just with angles differently on each side. 

as such, this sounded the same almost. i couldn't really distinguish a difference between either, so i think it will come down to cosmetics. 

now, i have to figure out how to get two more blobs on the dash looking nice.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Bro, first of all great work, and second of all, your progress is AMAZING! Dang you work fast!


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> so, the results are in... HOLY ****. Almost night and day vs the other three in all regards. It sounded like I would need less eqing, some simple t/a brought in the center stage like i have never heard it before. I literally thought i had a speaker in the center and two on each of my mirrors. The sound was incredibly spacious, depth was great, and width was stellar. I had so much fun with it that i started playing other songs... for quite some time.


I continue to be impressed by your build(s)  

I don't have the equipment list that you have, but I am extremely appreciative of your experiments and write ups regarding speaker placement. You have saved me a lot of time and trial and error regarding my proposed install changes.

Thanks again.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

looks great! 

save some room for a time delay in case you get some pop. almost every tru billet system with a line8 has it, sometimes, randomly because it takes longer for the line8 to power up. your tweets won't like it, if you have it.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Notloudenuf said:


> I continue to be impressed by your build(s)
> 
> I don't have the equipment list that you have, but I am extremely appreciative of your experiments and write ups regarding speaker placement. You have saved me a lot of time and trial and error regarding my proposed install changes.
> 
> Thanks again.


i appreciate the compliment... i'm sure it goes without saying, but you'll still want to perform your own experiments as every car and speakers will interact differently.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

SouthSyde said:


> Bro, first of all great work, and second of all, your progress is AMAZING! Dang you work fast!


not so fast... trust me. my progress is now up to date, but i started about a month ago..


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Cool stuff. Glad you had the results you were hoping for. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

I find it very interesting that you preferred the mids up on the dash. I like you had read that thread where the idea was the mid-range down in the kick and tweets up high would produce the best trade-offs. This is not what you found I take it?

When you were experimenting with placement were you running tweets too?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

What was wrong with the last build


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> I find it very interesting that you preferred the mids up on the dash. I like you had read that thread where the idea was the mid-range down in the kick and tweets up high would produce the best trade-offs. This is not what you found I take it?
> 
> When you were experimenting with placement were you running tweets too?


i was not, and that could certainly have some influence. the way i see it though, is that if i get good placement with one set of speakers, then i'll get an even better response when i add in the tweets. 

i was playing the mids in their intended passsband, 200 - 3250, so the sound itself was a little "meh" without a top end to it, but it was pretty clear to see which location was best.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Cool stuff. Glad you had the results you were hoping for.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


well, i am clear on where the mids need to go, but not to happy about having to find a way to mount them up there in a way that looks cohesive with the rest of the dash.

it's all tradeoffs, right? and in the end, if i really didn't want to do it, i could get similar results with the mids in the kicks, but with a bit more involved tuning. 

i'll get some rta measurements and post them up ... i hope that you can help us decipher exactly what we are seeing when i do


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> What was wrong with the last build


i was wondering if/when you were going to pop up on here... always had an opinion on things. read my first couple of posts, i think it was pretty clear a change was needed...

besides, i enjoy the building process as much as the listening, so it's a good release for me to come home and work on something I enjoy after a long 11 hour day.


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

I have always preferred mids up high and in front of the listener. Now you have your work cut out for you to make them integrate well with the car.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

AudioBob said:


> Now you have your work cut out for you to make them integrate well with the car.


Well I'm certainly up for suggestions


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i was wondering if/when you were going to pop up on here... always had an opinion on things. read my first couple of posts, i think it was pretty clear a change was needed...
> 
> besides, i enjoy the building process as much as the listening, so it's a good release for me to come home and work on something I enjoy after a long 11 hour day.


Sounds good :beerchug:...hope you can get to that place you are still trying to find

.....:snacks:!!!!!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i think the trade off, as bad as it may be to your overall plan, MAY rest in a smaller mid uptop...

i think it can be done for sure with those scan up there...but its gonna be hard to make it look very good....mainly becuase how high your shroud comes up...but it certainly can be done 

a 3" type of driver i think will be much easier to fab up there.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks for your openness in the first couple posts with your impressions of the first set up you had. Many would think it crazy to change with the equipment list and pro install that you had, but in the end, it is totally up to you - have to be satisfied (or at least happy with it).

I'll echo what was said earlier - I read some of the other threads, and I'm surprised that your location testing told you the mids on the dash was the answer - great stuff. I guess this is a good plug for doing the install yourself if you have the skills.......if you would have dropped it off with a preconceived notion that mid range in the kicks was what you wanted, but there were no experimentation, you may never have been satisfied. Now....getting them installed and looking good. I'll be very interested to see what you decide.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bertholomey said:


> I'll echo what was said earlier - I read some of the other threads, and I'm surprised that your location testing told you the mids on the dash was the answer - great stuff.


Note that I did not have the mids firing full off axis like so many other installs do. I didn't even try that. I think one area that the mids positioned towards the listener minimized was the amount of reflections off of the windshield. I **** you not, the center stage so soo real to me that it was uncanny. I haven't heard as many competition systems as other people, but i think i didn't even know what a good center sounded like until now. 

I suspect that if i did fire the mids completely towards each other i would lose a lot of the advantage of firing the mids directly at the listener. 

again, i hope to get some measurements to see exactly what is happening in the "data" field.


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## jcollin76 (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm interested to see how the data correlates to what your hearing. I'd also like to echo the compliments on you documenting position changes, and your thoughts on them.
You read about it repeatedly, and see the end results, but not So much on the process. Thanks!

A smaller mid would be easier to integrate, but that depends on how solid you are with using what you have... Maybe not getting the same results if you went smaller... Tough call.
Next time I make a run at my pillars, I'll be trying a 2-3" mid in hopes of getting it behind the pillar for better aesthetics. But I have deep pillars, giving me room to play with aiming behind it. 

Your doing beautiful work to this point as well!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

jcollin76 said:


> I'm interested to see how the data correlates to what your hearing. I'd also like to echo the compliments on you documenting position changes, and your thoughts on them.
> You read about it repeatedly, and see the end results, but not So much on the process. Thanks!
> 
> A smaller mid would be easier to integrate, but that depends on how solid you are with using what you have... Maybe not getting the same results if you went smaller... Tough call.
> ...


I know its just an excuse, but the thing that stopped me from really testing before was that i didnt have the equipment set up to do it correctly. Im sure many people fall into that boat as well... many builds you see the amp rack completed near the end. Unless there is some temp test equipment used, then most people dont install in the right order. 

Like i said, its a dumb excuse, but this time around i resolved to get the amps done first before settling on locations. I feel much more confident now about my finished product simply because i know im taking the time to do things rightorder the first time. I think some of us fall into the position i was in and because of it, they'll never know what the results could havs been. I knoww why erin and other forum vets get pissed off answering all thise locations questions... there is too many variances in car and speakers to determi e ideal placement. Until people ask the question with real data, no one will ever know whats the "best" in that particular situation.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Ready for some RTA plots?  All of this was done with a behringer 8000 mic, mic mate, TrueRTA, and mono pink noise. Bandpassed filter at 200 - 3250 at 24db/oct 


First shot, is of the mic in the car, nothing running and a dead quiet garage. The mic is uncalibrated (I thought I could do this myself) and this is a good baseline to gauge the accuracy of the reports. I didn’t do spatial averaging, but I did manage to the the mic right about where my head would be in a normal listening position. 










These are the first 4 shots of the speakers in my “originally” intended locations, in the kickpanels, near the floor

*(** NOTE, each group of pictures are Left only, then Right only, then overlayed (in TrueRTA), then with both channels playing combined***


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Next up was the same general location, but in off axis format

Left only, then Right only, then overlayed (in TrueRTA), then with both channels playing combined


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

In the kicks, pushed up deep in the footwells

Left only, then Right only, then overlayed (in TrueRTA), then with both channels playing combined


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Located on the dash, facing each listener on axis (my best in subjective testing)

Left only, then Right only, then overlayed (in TrueRTA), then with both channels playing combined


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Located on the dash, passenger side facing the driver on axis

Left only, then Right only, then overlayed (in TrueRTA), then with both channels playing combined


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Located on the dash, driver side now facing off axis of the driver, passenger side on axis with driver

Left only, then Right only, then overlayed (in TrueRTA), then with both channels playing combined





































Very interesting, and it’s good to put data to the results. I’m going to digest this info for a bit before I make any conclusions. I must say, this was a fun experiment. Very easy, took a bit of time, but well worth it I think .


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

im wondering if the difference u heard were actually due to reflections caused by the mids not being fully enclosed.
I know a few people who have done Mids up near the dash and thought they heard a huge improvement in width, but once the mids were enclosed, they realized that part of it was cancellation bc of front wave meeting rear as well as reflections creating a false sense of width and ambiance.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ i did use towels to cover up the entire back of the motor structure and basket... assuming that was done well enough ( you can tell in the pics) would that really be an issue?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> ^ i did use towels to cover up the entire back of the motor structure and basket... assuming that was done well enough ( you can tell in the pics) would that really be an issue?


yes..no..maybe..could be....I dunno for sure...i was just throwin it out there, something that popped in my head reading what you heard as differences etc....
towels could be absorbing too around the front...
see what happens if u use a tupperwear bowl, butter tub or something similar for an actual pseudo enclosure. use some fill or something inside to absorb some, so it doesnt sound so hollow or "tubby"..lol


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^i'll have to check that out... thanks for the tip. i hope it doesn't change anything... i really liked how it sounded, and it looked like the rta backed up. (unless i'm interpreting that wrong)


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I just know, in all the years Ive been doing this, that things change once they actually get enclosed.

also, can you change it to 1/3octave...1/24 is hella confusing to me...lol


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> also, can you change it to 1/3octave...1/24 is hella confusing to me...lol


only because you asked nicely .. i thought you never got confused :laugh:

here is the on axis location, with 1/3 octave results as requested

first, left and right separate:









then playing together:


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> only because you asked nicely .. i thought you never got confused :laugh:
> 
> here is the on axis location, with 1/3 octave results as requested
> 
> ...


Thanks....and I get confused all the time dude..u really have no idea...im to the point now I regularly walk into rooms and have no idea why I am there

so what did u post? is that the dash? can u do the rest in 1/3octave too?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> Thanks....and I get confused all the time dude..u really have no idea...im to the point now I regularly walk into rooms and have no idea why I am there
> 
> so what did u post? is that the dash? can u do the rest in 1/3octave too?


this is the dash, each speaker on axis with the facing listener...

i may post the other ones up later, but it took me a bit of time just to screen cap each plot, save to paint, upload to photob, then post. if you know of a quicker way???


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

i dunno...wrong person to ask here. You could just email me the Kick panel ones. those are the ones I am most curious about


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ok, here you go...

kickpanel left and right 









combined









would you mind sharing exactly what you are looking for or finding? i like the colors lol, they are pretty.  but seriously, what the heck are we seeing here?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Playing Together
responses arent THAT different IMO
Kick panel is flatter througout the range.
small peaks at 400,500 and 630 but then goes relatively flat to 3.2

dash, small peak at 320, dip at 1khz and 1.2, then a gradual roll off after that


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ i'm not so sure that the rta is telling the whole story though... if the two locations were near identical, wouldn't i have had near subjective results? on the dash the speakers seemed to disappear, having a strong center image and wide dispersion... was this due to the backwaves as you suggest. in the mids in the kicks were good, but not close in comparison after the dash test. center was there but not as defined, and my attention could easily be brought down to the speakers on the floor. 

of course the rta won't tell us everything, but how come it doesn't bring more clarity to the subjective issues?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

make sure the mic is fully calibrated, when i just got hte 8000s in, i did some measurements, now that i got a set of fully calibrated ones, it makea a pretty big difference when tuning. 

unless you have the right gear, i am unsure if you can really truly calibrate it on your own.

b


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey Bing,

What RTA software are you using? I thought it was truRTA but I don't remember it having inputs for two mics.

Matt,

I love your build threads (and especially the BMW) and I hope you find what you're looking for with this one. Car looks great and equipment is amazing. Wish I had your budget. LOL

Jay


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

TrueRTA does have two inputs. Left and right. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Thanks, Erin. I may have been confused because I was looping the other channel for reference when I was doing freq response measurements.
But I think that may have been with Fuzzmeasure on my Mac partition.
It's been a while.


Jay


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i thought my plots would have generated more conversation than this... 

forum vets, what do you see?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

It's a lot of plots. Give us some time. 

Bing is dead on, though. 
Hard to trust the data if you don't trust the hardware. Check the Dayton emm-6 mic. 

Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

I use true RTA as well. I followed Erin's Advice and contacted Herb from Cross Spectrum labs, since i had dual mics, i asked him to find two mics that had relatively equal responses so i can use a single calibration file. and he did just that, sending me two 8000s that are well within 1 db above 50hz. i returned my original mics to partsexpress and have been using these. 

i think those plots are a bit too much info hehe. can i ask you to do these for me? it would help me a lil more:


1. instead of bar graphs do the line plot in bold

2. make your averages 30 or 60

3. 1/3 octave

then do comparisons plots for:

A. mids on dash, on axis relatively to listener
1. everything in phase
2. one woofer out of phase, everything else in phase
3. one mid out of phase, everything else in phase
4. one tweeter out of phase, everything else in phase


then do the same for the kick panel location mid, just do it for the one that you felt sounded better.


so basically we just get two plots, each with four plot lines.



lines to me are easier to read when you are comparing. forget about left and right seprate for now. i wanna see what dips in your response is cancellation, what is just the natural response of the system.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

simplicityinsound said:


> i think those plots are a bit too much info hehe. can i ask you to do these for me? it would help me a lil more:
> 
> 
> lines to me are easier to read when you are comparing. forget about left and right seprate for now. i wanna see what dips in your response is cancellation, what is just the natural response of the system.


Yes! That's exactly what I was about to say. Line plots are much easier for comparison. You can save the results in the memory. Up to 20. Just write them down as you go because the note section sucks. 




Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm no vet, but in addition to what Mic10is noted, 

1) the intensity difference between L & R is pronounced in the dash charts, yet looks fairly balanced in the kicks. This would make me think dash placement would lead to a 1 seat car.

2) likely due to the intensity difference, the roll off on both ends of the dash charts is more pronounced than the kicks. 

3) The dip on dash mounts @ ~1.5k is only on the right and does not show up in the kicks

Just looking at the charts, I would have guessed the kicks preferable, in particular for the vocals.

2cents~


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

well color me noob....

i thought 1/24 plots were the best, show the most detail etc. i figured out how to do the line graphs, so i'll do that from now on. 

here is what i thought i was looking for:

similar responses when looking at left and right... the more similar they are the better time you'll have matching up tonality, frequency response, staging, etc... 

flat response - with regards to the mic being uncalibrated, this is tough. i had already bought the mic a long while ago, and was told that it would still be useful in comparing differences. 

large peaks or dips... we don't want those. the less you have the better. 

so in these regards, it seemed to my "noob"ish thought process that the dash locations on axis would be best. 

but it sounds like what you are saying, is that not only do i have too much info, it's not the right type? 

instead of comparing left and right, i should be looking at the combined response and how phase correlates to suckouts and anomalies? what specifically should i be looking for in those plots? how do you determine what is the natural response vs. the environment? 

based on those findings, than i can tweak the location, aiming of the speakers, and see how things measure out then? 

i have to admit, i'm a bit lost in this process, but i want to make sure i'm doing it right


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

A worthless interjection, but it occurred to me earlier, and I'll go ahead and type it here....:blush:

it will be interesting to see what you do......if the measurements tell you that the kicks are better.....but your ears told you the dash was better.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ honestly, after Mic said i might be hearing reflections and that's why i thought the dash location was really spacious, i've been wanting to retest that and make sure i wasn't hearing anything i wasn't supposed to. i sure hope that's not the case.

it was the first time when speakers actually disappeared... 

i'll get the tweets up and running at the same time, and we'll see how that impacts the subjective listening tests for both locations.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

Here's a noob question...

What's wrong with reflections if it sounds better?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ he was suggesting reflections from the backwave, which won't happen when they are in enclosures


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

I was thinking the same thing. You are going to get a multitude of reflections in a car. It is only a problem if they cause major issues with achieving a desirable stage and frequency response.


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## jcollin76 (Oct 26, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> ^ he was suggesting reflections from the backwave, which won't happen when they are in enclosures


Is there any way to create a better "towel enclosure"? Maybe with more weight to it.. more/thicker towels. Maybe tape edges to prevent any leaks? Just so you can eliminate as many backwave issues as possible. Give you some more peace of mind when testing the locations.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

If anything, the towels choked the driver. I wouldn't at all be concerned with issues from backwaves with your mock up testing. I think it served its purpose just fine and is not worth troubleshooting. 

The goal for the rta should be pretty simple: see what install causes the most issues via comb filtering. You have DSP to level match. Unless your goal is 2 seat, none of that matters at all and you're chasing your tail, IMHO. 

In the car, the best you can hope for is some sort of linear response. Whether it be rising or falling. So, what you really should look for is the install method that causes less issues out of the gate. I chose pillars because of this. If you check my build thread you'll see I measures the drivers installed in the pillars but outside of the car. That way I ruled out issues caused by the pillars themselves and could delineate between that and issues caused by the rest of the car (ie: the dash). 
I know I mentioned this in one of your previous treads, Matt. The next step would be to measure the driver on a baffle itself. Then you know what the driver does, the pillar does and what the rest of the car does to FR. Makes it easier on you in the long run and you know what is the root cause for certain issues. 

My $.02. 




Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

If it were me, I would want to look at the response finer than a 10db swing on the rta


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

Erin, I like your approach. Too many times the speakers are blamed when it is really how or where they are installed. I wish that many years ago when I took this hobby up I had some of the test equipment that is out there now readily available as I spent a lot of time building and installing stuff that didn't work out as envisioned.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

FWIW, I quickly rolled through your photos *without knowing what was what*, looking for general differences between the data and the linearity of the data of each set you provided. Turns out....
the dash location measures better.

Both sides are pretty well in line with each other. Overall, the lines are much smoother than in the kickpanel results.
You have SERIOUS issues in the 400hz in one of the kick panel plots and the majority of the FR in the kickpanel plots is not near as linear as are the dash.

Which, goes toward something I mentioned back in another thread; the notion that kicks are somehow impervious to comb filtering issues while the dash is not is asinine. In fact, in some installs, the kick creates a null lower in response than the dash install because of the floor bounce (reflection off the floor of the car), which is simply a relationship of the driver distance to a reflecting surface vs. the straight shot of the driver to your ear.
Here's a more detailed link:
SBIR & Floor Bounce calculator




Back to what I mentioned earlier about measuring the driver outside of the car, I know you haven't yet built your pillars but it's still something I recommend doing once you do. It at least saves you headaches from chasing your tail on something that is caused by the car vs. the pillar or vice versa. If you measure the pillar itself first, you might find some things you can do to help smooth the response (flush mount a driver, smooth a transition from pod to pillar, tame a resonance due to the structure of the pillar, etc, etc).


Here's my silliness:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1486639-post1377.html




bikinpunk said:


> I've sold off the HAT L4se's. I got sick of them. 'Nuff said.
> 
> On to something else. Back to scan. I ordered up the illuminator 12mu and the discovery 10f to test. The Illuminator is a BEAST in all regards. For a 4" midrange it's hugemongous. Large underhung motor. Large surround. The sucker has 5.1mm linear xmax. No other 4" midrange I've seen can do this. The problem is simply size.
> The 10f has 2.2mm xmax (I haven't posted data yet). It's a good deal smaller than the 12mu and can fit in the pillars with much less effort.
> ...





bikinpunk said:


> out of curiosity I did some testing using a small square of 3/8" Roxul on the pillars about 1" forward of the tweeter, with *only the tweeter playing*. My goal was to see what kind of tamed response I might get using this absorptive material to help minimize some reflections. The results were opposite of what I expected, though, they do make sense.
> 
> You'll see below that the response without roxul (in black) has a bump around 4.2khz and then starts rolling downward.
> The response with roxul minmizes this bump but lowering the overall response below 6.6khz.
> ...





Hope this helps, Matt.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ totally. you basically confirmed what I was assuming looking at the data.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

i wish i had that kind of cash to spend on hardware erin lol. awesome helping the diy scene sir. mad props.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thanks, Andy but I think I killed the thread. Lol. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

You thread killer! (I thought I was the only one that happens to....)


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Blue tape must be the new ducttape there Erin lol


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You have no idea. I use it to fill in gaps on my test baffle. Got the idea from Vance Dickason. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Thanks, Andy but I think I killed the thread. Lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


not killed it, but after you contributed, i don't have much else to say about the location. 

my next goal is to get a rough mock up of the mids, enclosed, and then add the tweeters in the mix to see subjectively (listening) and objectively (data) things work out from there. 

it kinda sucks though, in trying to be original -- in looking at options for mounting the tweeter, and in trying to keep it in the vertical domain, it's going to look almost like your pillars  (much nicer of course,  ) but there isn't much room for any other placement. 

one thing we pm'd about, and will be interesting to see, is what the response looks like with the tweeters in the sail panels, horizontal to the mids. as per you and mic, this is less than ideal placement of the tweeter, so i plan to see why via rta


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> it kinda sucks though, in trying to be original -- in looking at options for mounting the tweeter, and in trying to keep it in the vertical domain, it's going to look almost like your pillars ....


Hence why pillars end up looking like they do. Best of the "compromises" without loosing the dash to an elaborate grill cloth covered scaffolding system.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

so, i got a bit of prep work for tomorrow done... here's a sign of things to come 

pillars, take three 

i was having problems with tape sticking to the dash... last time i used plastic bags, and after a few layers of resin and chop, the plastic bag started to stretch and deform, leaving me with a garbage mold. this, and the need for a bigger mold since the mids are going on the dash...

i set off to find tape that would stick... found some stucco tape that worked really well. it has a smooth surface, so mold release shouldn't be a problem either...




























i think this is that part of fiberglassing that's the most pain for me... it takes so long to ensure an even coverage around all the bumps and dips... probably an hour to do both sides

i'm continuing on the sub enclosure tomorrow as well, so got the front mold stretched with grill cloth. tomorrow, i'll throw down a layer on the cloth, and then reinforce from the inside



















stay tuned for more fun tomorrow


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

id still use some mold release wax or vaseline as a release agent on the tap or use some foil tape or aluminum foil. also donot mix Hot batches of resin. too hot with melt the adhesive on the tape and make a huge ass mess on your nice dash

so mix it barely able to kick so it cures nice and slow, also reduces possibility of warping

and plastic off EVERYTHing else, or youll find resin in places you never imagined or intended...done that many times....

so now I can be building Kicks and I'll tape off the backseat and roof just bc somehow resin ends up there....lol


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Still planning on all those things... when i said mold release shouldnt be a problem, i was suggesting that the mold coming off should be relatively easy... blue tape always sticks to some extent, it looks like it should be a lot easier to get the molds off without much effort with this tape. 

Good suggestion on the batch temp though... ill mix it a bit cooler to avoid the melting tape.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I quit using duct tape bc it always left residue. worked great bc resin doesnt stick to it well.
Now I primarily use blue tape or foil. and use mequires mold release wax.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

complete and utter failure... the resin and mat didn't stick to the tape.. the tape started to lift off, and it's completely scrapped

i'm not sure how to make a mold out of this stupid dash, but it's really starting to piss me off

i bought a bunch of different tape last night, and this stucco tape, outside of duct tape, was the only thing that would stick to the dash. 

i need some tips here guys... i used dawn, simple green, rubbing alcohol and nothing is sticking...

has anyone ever used expanding foam to make a negative mold before? i'm thinking, throw a drop cloth in there, spray away and let the "expanding" part of the foam fill in the shape, pull it out and then glass over it, then i have a "negative" mold. does this sound dumb?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

A lot of folks use floral foam and carve it to shape and make the mold off that. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ i have thought about that, but it sounds like a ton of work in order to fill the shape of the pillar and dash...

to get a general exterior mold, that's fine, but i'm still trying to get the base completed first.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I've tried expanding foam once but it was a nightmare. it fell on top of itself. If I had more patience and allowed it to set in intervals, it might have worked a bit better. but the plastic wouldn't stay in place and the foam just drooped all over the place. 

my fab skills suck.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

aluminum duct seal tape


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you were going to use expanding foam, this is what I would do:

Tape the whole area good.

Get some trunk liner and spray glue.

Glue the carpet to the areas where you are going to glass. This will give you the same shape minus an 1/8" or so.

More spray glue and aluminum foil on top of the carpet.

Wax the foil.

Make a barrier about where the front baffle would sit.

Spray glue, aluminum foil, and wax.

Tape that in place.

Let loose on the foam.

The barrier/baffle will keep if from falling over.

When it cures, pull it out.

Glass the back side with 2-3 layers of glass- you accounted for this in the thickness of the carpet you glued in place.

Shape the foam how you want it.

Aluminum foil/wax on top of the foam. Glass that. Pull that off, get rid of the foam. Now you have an enclosure. Glass it from the inside.

Should have minimal amount of filler to use. And it should fit very precisely.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Could also put the rings/speaker baffle in and foam around it. Then trim all of that down very fast with some 36 grit.

I built a top of a dash like that in my old Accord in about 2 hours. Took longest for the foam to cure out than shaping and glassing.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i htink in the end, you gotta figure out why your tape wont stick. i have never encountered a situation where i couldnt get the tape to stick...

expanding foam is doable but its kinda risky, you mess up there, and you are looking at some pretty expensive repairs.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

I hope that tape is nothing like duct tape. That will end up leaving a gooey mess if it gets too hot. Your dash will never recover from that.

Also, not sure if you are glassing to the glass also, but make sure you have a lot of some kind of release on there if you do, and do not pry on the window at all. it will/can break very easily from the inside. plus, i'd leave a little room anyway, you don't want it touching the glass at all. at least, imo, it ends up looking like crap from the outside if it touches in just a couple spots. suede is more forgiving if you use it, but paint and vinyl won't be. think boobs on a glass shower. lol.

good luck!!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

AS far as clean up, getting fiberglass on the windshield isn't a concern...it will come off with a stainless steel razor blade. Fiberglass will generally pop off of glass. I used to lay carbon fiber up on a glass panel when I wanted to make carbon fiber trim pieces...it always popped off without a problem.

Don't worry about the heat on the glass either. I have tinted enough windows and put way more heat on the glass than what fiberglass curing will put on it.

And a mist of armour all over all of the plastic is another layer of insurance. Let the resin dry, and it will pop off of the plastic. The glue mess will clean up off of the plastic too.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I used non hardening clay. Lots of it. I put it where I was going to glass and used the thickness of the clay as my barrier buffer between the final enclosure and the windshield. The enclosure pulled from the clay okay and then I finished the layers outside the car.

Here is a good example. I stole the idea (and pic) from John Whiteledge


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ so you just glassed right on top of the clay? can you get this stuff at local fabric and craft stores like joann's? that looks like a good solution...

the expanding foam thing isn't going to work for me... i just tried a bit earlier this afternoon, before all the replies mind you, and i don't think it's going to do for me what i need it do.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> I've tried expanding foam once but it was a nightmare. it fell on top of itself. If I had more patience and allowed it to set in intervals, it might have worked a bit better. but the plastic wouldn't stay in place and the foam just drooped all over the place.
> 
> my fab skills suck.


complete nightmare, i agree 100%.. check out my results ... 



simplicityinsound said:


> i htink in the end, you gotta figure out why your tape wont stick. i have never encountered a situation where i couldnt get the tape to stick...
> 
> expanding foam is doable but its kinda risky, you mess up there, and you are looking at some pretty expensive repairs.


well, i guess you've never encountered my dash  trust me, i've tried pretty much every trick in the book to get something to stick. 



jtaudioacc said:


> I hope that tape is nothing like duct tape. That will end up leaving a gooey mess if it gets too hot. Your dash will never recover from that.
> 
> good luck!!


nothing like duct tape.. it did leave a bit of residue on the windshield, but nothing that goo gone couldn't fix... nothing on the dash though... i suppose that's saying a lot about how slick my dash is 



Niebur3 said:


> I used non hardening clay. Lots of it. I put it where I was going to glass and used the thickness of the clay as my barrier buffer between the final enclosure and the windshield. The enclosure pulled from the clay okay and then I finished the layers outside the car.
> 
> Here is a good example. I stole the idea (and pic) from John Whiteledge


i'll be attempting this tomorrow. i think this should be a workable solution for me, thanks for the tip.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

today was a complete nightmare guys... when i say nightmare, i mean NOTHING went right. 

let me explain...

(i'm down to the last mix of resin in the can, which i think helped lead me to all these troubles for some reason)

i started the day prepped and ready for some good fiberglassin' fun!










i mixed up my first batch, and stated laying down a chop/weave combo on the pillars. nearing completion of about three layers, the top and some of the glass had some bubbles, and in attempt to smooth them out, i did something to pull the entire thing down. once it started coming, there wasn't any saving it. 

i pulled out all the soaked materials, and what you see here is my result of a few hours of prep, and glass. 










i will say this, i'm not foreign to working with fiberglass, and consider myself pretty darned decent in making what i want from a fabrication stand point. getting to the point where i simply couldn't find any tape to stick to the dash, and finally finding something that would work, and then this..... bummer... I was downright upset from the get-go. 

i took what was left of the resin batch, and started applying to the front of the sub enclosure. after completing that, i set it out in the sun to set. 

as i mentioned earlier, I decided to run to HD to get some expanding foam to see if that would work. After appropriately redressing the dash and windshield with a drop cloth, carefully taping up the areas that i was wanting the expanding foam to form, i sprayed away. 

no mess... great! hours later, i got to pull out the foam, after letting it set for the necessary time, and blam, this is what i got from both sides... a hardened exterior... but the interior of the mold was completely liquid. 










i actually got pretty lucky tonight, as i was pulling out this gunk. within seconds of moving the plastic and unsolidified foam, it started leaking... within just a foot of the car 










talk about lucky.... i would have been so upset if it got in the interior... 




as if all of this wasn't bad enough... 

this is how the sub enclosure ended up tonight..










you don't see any fiber-glassed material, do you? 

when it was curing, the cloth started lifting from the ring, causing an unshapely form, one that i couldn't work with. to compound that issue, the cloth cured but wasn't strong at all. in fact, when i was ripping it out, i could bend it and flex it without it cracking at all. 

(probably a bad batch of resin or something... never happened like this before for me)


talk about a frustrating day... arrghh


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

but i did manage to get something to go right... 

i started the work on the back of the sub box, where the ap vent was going to be...

first, i created a piece of wood shaped to fit the interior of the plastic panels... i used 3/4" birch ply










because the lip was less than 3/4", i needed to rabbit the edge of the panel to get it to sit flush with the plastic lip










now you can see it fits as it's supposed to










i then proceeded to make a cutout for the ap vent










i rabbited the inside edge of this as well










next up, i needed to make the grill that will hold the AP vent material. 

i ordered some mesh a few weeks back from McMaster Carr... here is a bit cut to form the spot










i used the cut piece to hammer in the mesh, and get it to form properly.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

what happens if u just do one layer
Get one layer only layed down and wetted out.
Give it alot of time to curely cure, shrink if its going to etc..then do layers on top of that

based on what just happened, the problems seems to be the weight of multiple materials.

so even tho its a much slower process, you may need to do 1 layer. dry
1more layer or maybe get lucky and add 2
let dry

then should be strong enough to pull from car and then build up outside the car


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

after bending everything into shape:










i then cut a second piece to serve as the sandwich layer:










after inserting a few bolts, i'll be using wingnuts to help the process of switching out the thickness of fiberglass until i get the tuning right










testing how well things will get sandwiched:










and this will be the back side:














i'll be flushing in the bolts, applying rage to the whole surface to give me a nice even, flat surface. This will then be covered by carpet, and you'd never know, looking in the trunk, that there is a sub in there venting into the trunk. i think it's going to be pretty sweet!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> what happens if u just do one layer
> Get one layer only layed down and wetted out.
> Give it alot of time to curely cure, shrink if its going to etc..then do layers on top of that
> 
> ...


never had a problem with two or three layers before... i think there was something weird with this last batch... that and the tape. the resin never did really stick to it... it had bubbling problems the whole time, not just at the end... 

the only thing i did differently, was tried using weave instead of chop, as Bing thought it was easier. After attempting his process, I wholeheartedly disagree. (has nothing to do with layers not sticking)


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

made better progress today... 

thanks jerry for the tip on modeling clay...

i went down to joann's yesterday, picked up some clay and floral foam to help with the pillar build. 

so, with a staunch resolve for this to be the last time to prep for the pillars, i set out to do it one last time  

i first laid down tape on the pillar and windshield, and taped up some plastic for the bottom dash. 










i then proceeded to lay down a 1/8" or so layer of clay. I applied this to the dash and windshield surfaces, but opted not to for the pillar. I want the pillar portion to be a snug fit as it is necessary to complete what i envision for these speakers. 










after fully dressing the area, a layer of mold release, and I went to town. i used a combination of chop and cloth, and all told probably managed to get 3 layers down, 4 in some spots. 

i didn't have any issues like yesterday, and i'm using a new can of resin, so that could have been the issue previously, or it may have been the tape. Either way, i don't care, because after an hour or so, everything seems to be curing as necessary. I actually looks like i won't have to go through this whole process again 










I repeated on the other side:



















last objective for the day was to secure the back panel of the sub box, and then reinforce from the inside. 

all surfaces have recieved a double layer of kyntex, finishing off with a cloth overlay to join everything and soak up extra resin. This should finish off to be a really strong box... no flex allowed here


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## hatemi (Dec 23, 2011)

Very impressive work so far. 

I have one tip for anyone trying to use expanding foam. Spray some water in it between layers. It needs moisture to properly cure and when doing thick molds like your pilars, it will never ever cure if its not watered. Especially when doing the mold inside an airtight bag.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

and.......




















we have pods, ladies and gentlemen    










(i'm using some extra sticks of clay to keep the mold in form while it continues to fully cure. while it's hard to the touch, in my experience, the mold gets much stronger after a 24 hour sit.)

here are two different placement options i have for the mid... whichever i can do less obtrusive, that's what i'll do. i have some floral foam, so getting that shaped is what's next on the list for the pillars 























not a bad weekend considering yesterday was almost a complete waste


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

if you can get it in front of the cluster cover that might help you a bit to avoid some issues off that piece. That might be an interesting test... since you like the RTA and all.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Its lile you read my mind


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> if you can get it in front of the cluster cover that might help you a bit to avoid some issues off that piece. That might be an interesting test... since you like the RTA and all.


you got me thinking a bit... you take a look at polar response, and always at some point, the speaker should radiate a 360 degree response, correct? 

so when people add in speaker grills, like the ones you see Bing do with low temp plastic, and a ring, these normally have a lip, like 1" or so... does that somehow direct some directivity of the driver (good or bad). if so, it would be in the best interest to test with those results as well...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Sighs...I hate not being able to see the pictures while at work.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

It certainly has an effect on higher frequency response. It's measurable to some degree depending on how bad the diffraction is. However, some degree of diffraction is not perceivable so I'd recommend measuring and then listening for those occurrences if the measurements show it. I know it may lead you to confirmation bias but it's going to be hard to hear unless you know exactly what and where to listen for. You could make the argument that listening for it means you wouldn't hear it otherwise... But since you're least splitting hairs...


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> It certainly has an effect on higher frequency response. It's measurable to some degree depending on how bad the diffraction is. However, some degree of diffraction is not perceivable so I'd recommend measuring and then listening for those occurrences if the measurements show it. I know it may lead you to confirmation bias but it's going to be hard to hear unless you know exactly what and where to listen for. You could make the argument that listening for it means you wouldn't hear it otherwise... But since you're least splitting hairs...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


i was thinking that employing something like this, with some sound deadening around the rim (roxul, ccf, whatever, could go a long way in further eliminating harmful reflections...

case in point, if i found that an install of the mid would be better pushed back on the dash, then the speaker is going to butt right up against the windshield... this could cause some uglies, but employing a ring with some material could (theoretically) help, right? 

I'm not sure if this is something that would work in practice, but in my mind, it seems to make sense


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Then again, the windshield and dash could help you versus a nearly free standing pod...

But I have to wait another 5+ hours until I get home so I can see the pictures.


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## metalball (Sep 8, 2010)

Wow... talk about a lot of trial and error. Kudos on keeping with it and really curious to see what's next!


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

metalball said:


> Wow... talk about a lot of trial and error. Kudos on keeping with it and really curious to see what's next!


I am definitely interested to see what this turns out like as I am planning something very similar as well in the very near future (possibly this coming weekend even). :snacks:

I don't have the slick dash like you do but I am still very nervous about it becoming damaged. One question for you tho, I think you have a dash mat you are implementing if I recall. You took it out to do the moulds or you are leaving it in? This is something I have been contemplating myself. The dash mat will help to protect the dash from damage but could have serious issues getting anything to protect the dash mat although the tape should stick no prob. I think. Hmm...


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

james2266 said:


> I am definitely interested to see what this turns out like as I am planning something very similar as well in the very near future (possibly this coming weekend even). :snacks:
> 
> I don't have the slick dash like you do but I am still very nervous about it becoming damaged. One question for you tho, I think you have a dash mat you are implementing if I recall. You took it out to do the moulds or you are leaving it in? This is something I have been contemplating myself. The dash mat will help to protect the dash from damage but could have serious issues getting anything to protect the dash mat although the tape should stick no prob. I think. Hmm...


that's a great question... if you noticed, i didn't complain about the dash until the 3rd try for the pillars. that's because on the first one, i did use the dashmat for the base, and it worked great. i really didn't have an issue with that. 

the second one i tried using a plastic bag, and i thought i taped it really well, nice and tight. once my brush got a little tacky, it started pulling and tugging on the bag. i knew i wouldn't use that method again. 

so, third time, why didn't i just use the dashmat again? i wanted to maximize as much space as possible for the mid to mount. it's a really tight fit already. throw down a 1/4" or 3/8" cushion, and then a few layers of glass, and you are already off the dash about 1".... i need that much space. 

so in short, if you aren't doing anything super crazy like sticking a 4.5" mid with a 3.5" mounting depth, i wouldn't worry about it. cover that dashmat up, resin on down, and then build away. it'll provide a nice mounting solution for you as well... already damped, and vibration resistant... no squeaks from vinyl on dash type of application...

for me, i think i'm either going to get a custom dashmat or build my own. i simply don't like the one i have. plus i may be able to make it a bit thicker and heavier, with a different material that may help reduce reflections a bit more.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

some progress is better than no progress, right? 

i actually was able to get off early, (less than an 11 hour day  ) so i went to work on the pods for the midbass drivers. 

if you remember last, i was playing with positioning and mounted the rings... when i was doing so, i was trying to take into account the mounting of the midrange drivers down there as well.... well, since that isn't happening any more, i have a bit more flexibility in the mounting of the drivers down there. either way, i needed to get the pods out to create the AP vent...

i scored the exterior of the molds about 3/4" from where they originally met the metal of the kick panel... 

i then cut both of these bottom pieces out



















after ensuring i got a relatively flat surface, i traced out the interior line on some 1/2" birch










and cut them out with a router -- no, not with a jig, freehand. no one is going to see these, so it doesn't have to be precise










set in and tacked together with some hot melt...



















and then layed down 2 layers of 2 oz chop, and then a layer of 7oz cloth






















once this cures, i'll be able to move forward with the grill, and finishing both enclosures


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> that's a great question... if you noticed, i didn't complain about the dash until the 3rd try for the pillars. that's because on the first one, i did use the dashmat for the base, and it worked great. i really didn't have an issue with that.
> 
> the second one i tried using a plastic bag, and i thought i taped it really well, nice and tight. once my brush got a little tacky, it started pulling and tugging on the bag. i knew i wouldn't use that method again.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying that Matt. No, I am not attempting anything near that large (and hopefully I will be happy in the end so I don't have to do it again). I feel really good about going about this the way I was thinking now. Thanks for that. Now I just need it to stay warm long enough to have the time to do this, likely this weekend.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Matt

your fab skills have really improved a lot....nice job so far


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> Matt
> 
> your fab skills have really improved a lot....nice job so far


thanks... looking back at my G35, I really didn't know what I was doing. 

I guess pouring over all the build logs here have been really helpful. Experience is the best teacher though, and I continue to learn every day. 

I think, with respect to this build, I have invested so much, that I know I'm okay taking my time and finishing out all technical aspects of the install so I can have a finished product worth listening to. 

it's easy to rush through the install to get to the end result... however, if you do so, your end result typically suffers. It's kind of a catch 22 i guess.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> it's easy to rush through the install to get to the end result... however, if you do so, your end result typically suffers. It's kind of a catch 22 i guess.



x2 exactly.....I know where you are coming from....Hands-on experience is golden when it comes to DIY work....:thumbsup:


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

anyone think picking up a set of esotar2 430 mids would be a dumb move? Soundjunkie has a set for sale -- are there any advantages over the scan drivers

i've looked at the klippel data, and i gotta be honest, i don't really get all of it


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> anyone think picking up a set of esotar2 430 mids would be a dumb move? Soundjunkie has a set for sale -- are there any advantages over the scan drivers
> 
> i've looked at the klippel data, and i gotta be honest, i don't really get all of it


Depth and flat freq response for your A-pillars  Might help in integrating a bit better without looking like a tumor  
Less depth also equals to : easier to aim... 

Kelvin


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

but i like tumors


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

but seriously, when comparing the two, would a change like that be worth spending extra coin ... i've already sprung for the illuminators, for a little bit more i could get these... but what would that equate to in MY system, locations and constraints...


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

At your level of "All in", I'd grab them and sell the pair you don't use imp:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> anyone think picking up a set of esotar2 430 mids would be a dumb move? Soundjunkie has a set for sale -- are there any advantages over the scan drivers
> 
> i've looked at the klippel data, and i gotta be honest, i don't really get all of it


Man, I swear I thought I actually posted that in reply to Bing suggesting a set of 3" mids. I looked back through and... I don't see that I did. lol.


I'll be honest.. I think they're expensive as hell. But, they exhibit a very nice f requency response and, relatively speaking, they're small as hell. The more I demo these ridiculously low distortion drivers I have in front of me, the more I continue to put stock in to a very linear frequency response. The distortion level of some of these drivers are already low and as long as you're not crossing in to a region where distortion is very prominent (ie: thd above 3% at a high output), then it's all sort of a wash, IMHO. The data does a great job of showing you where this nominal bandpass is and where it gets ugly.
I have actually spoken with Jerry a couple times about getting a set of the Dyns for my car and I've still got it in the back of my head. The one thing I love about the 12mu's over the Dyn is simply the robust low end potential. That doesn't mean I'm wanting to run midbass frequencies on the dash. But, the cone area and the ability to dig deep lends itself to excellent dynamic capability. IMHO, in order to attain dynamics, you need cone space and/or serious linear throw. 

I'll suggest you look at the Scan 10f as well. It's a very small 4" driver; much closer to the dyn in size. For the price of the 10f, you might even consider buying them just to try out and dumping them if they don't cut the bill compared to the 430's (or you decide to keep the 12mu).


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

okay, took the day off today... got a lot done, but not too much to show for it... that's typically how it goes when you have a ton of fiberglass work... 

after trimming out the glass from the midbass pod molds:










i started with the supports to help with the mounting of the ring...



















after which, i stretched out a layer of grill cloth on each 










and then took to the back side to get the grills for the ap vents










i then turned my attention to the sub box... and layed down grill cloth over the top again










then turning my attention to the dash pods, i didn't have the strength that i wanted initially, and since i already removed all the mold portions of the build, i took some dowels and placed them strategically (while on the dash) in areas that would give me a uniform fit and finish despite being out of the dash when i glass for reinforcements...










i also countersunk the bolt holes in the rear of the sub box, and prepped that for a layer of cloth as well...

i'm not ready for a full day of glassing ! 

here are my proportioned layers of chop, cloth, and kyntex...










and all the pieces i need to glass


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

and after the sub box dried, i threw in the esotar sub for a test fit... i was a bit concerned about the magnet touching the inner grill that would be holding in the ap material, but it doesn't seem like it'll be an issue...








































the midbass pods received a double layer of kyntex on the inside, and will shortly be recieving some mortar as well...

the dash pods recieved two more layers of 2 oz chop... 




once things started curing, i took to the pillars, and trimmed the factory plastic a bit....










and once i did a baseline trim, i was able to throw in the rings and get to aiming them... 

this is what i've come up with so far...


























i'm still a little unsure of how things will flow, but i'll be breaking out the floral foam and do some shaping to get an idea of how things will look, and how much more i need to trim.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I could post up pictures, but what's the point....

today, i wanted to find some way to get the dash pods to look something other than pure and unadulterated ****. at the end of the day, this simply wasn't possible. 

i grabbed the floral foam, sanded away, cut some of the glass, sanded some more, and then started over again. 

i'm sorry to admit, but I think Bing was right, and that I need to check out some smaller midranges. 

Do you guys have any suggestions that would fit within my intended install? I'm open, and price range would probably end with some used Dyn E430's... (someone else got to them before me  )


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Scanspeak 10f has always got my vote. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Scanspeak 10f has always got my vote.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Reading on it, it really is one hell of a driver for the price. 
Flat freq in the midrange too 

Kelvin


----------



## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

As a fellow BMW driver, I'm happy to hear you've come to this place, as I was thinking it but didn't want to say *it*. :uhoh:

Possible issue/challenge is that you may now want to start all the way over...meaning, can you find a driver that can be integrated in the a-pillar without looking like a goiter , but sounds better than a bigger driver in the kicks. :juggle:

It's like you need to being comparing 3" wide banders against 6s or 8s that can play up to 4k or higher


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ well, I've made enough progress on the midbass to be changing that out... 

i need to find something that will fit in the dash... i think the "compromise" side of me is coming out, and i find myself saying "if it doesn't look good, i don't care how good it sounds"... so with that being said, i may be willing to do a driver off axis, or semi axis, at mitigated loss of sound staging... by that i mean, i still want it to sound damn good, but would be willing to lose a small margin of fidelity to help improve in the "looks" department...


any suggestions for a driver that would work well in an environment like this are welcome...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Reading on it, it really is one hell of a driver for the price.
> Flat freq in the midrange too
> 
> Kelvin


decent off axis response as well... would be well suited for that type of install...

erin, how come you aren't using these anymore... what did they not provide you that you needed?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> erin, how come you aren't using these anymore... what did they not provide you that you needed?


I mentioned it in one of my posts above regarding the Dyn. 



bikinpunk said:


> Man, I swear I thought I actually posted that in reply to Bing suggesting a set of 3" mids. I looked back through and... I don't see that I did. lol.
> 
> 
> I'll be honest.. I think they're expensive as hell. But, they exhibit a very nice f requency response and, relatively speaking, they're small as hell. The more I demo these ridiculously low distortion drivers I have in front of me, the more I continue to put stock in to a very linear frequency response. The distortion level of some of these drivers are already low and as long as you're not crossing in to a region where distortion is very prominent (ie: thd above 3% at a high output), then it's all sort of a wash, IMHO. The data does a great job of showing you where this nominal bandpass is and where it gets ugly.
> ...



Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Just guessing, but it looks like on-axis is a part of bikinpunk's approach...and the the 10f's top end looks to be quite HOT in that application.

Fountek FR88 looks like a strong candidate. Small, wide band, low distortion, and good 30deg polar response.

I don't see these tang bands being able to play as low, but they look to have similar positive qualities.

Others that come to mind are HAT L3SE, Audible Physics AR3K.

Did you sell your L4SEs? Did you ever test those up high? Would be interesting to hear a comparison of your prior kick use to the a-pillar placement your planning on now~


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

most 3" should be okay, like the focal utopia 3 or the dls scandanavia 3...going below that, something like the morel CDM88 would be even smaller.

i saw this going in ehe, i kept on thinking to myself wat i would do if someone gave me that mid and your car, i think there is really almost no way for me to make it look integrated...maybe cutting the dash and remolding it? but as an attached on pod, its just too big.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i could be wrong here since i havent picked up a 430 in a while, but isnt that driver one of the bigger midranges in that class? and with its outboard mounting hole tabs, to make it a flush mount will it be any smaller than what you have now? i mean like realistically making a difference smaller?

i could be wrong though but just dont remembering the dyn as what i would call a really small mid...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> most 3" should be okay, like the focal utopia 3 or the dls scandanavia 3...going below that, something like the morel CDM88 would be even smaller.
> 
> i saw this going in ehe, i kept on thinking to myself wat i would do if someone gave me that mid and your car, i think there is really almost no way for me to make it look integrated...maybe cutting the dash and remolding it? but as an attached on pod, its just too big.


I hate to say it but i dont have a problem admitting it... you were right. Of course my original plan ewas to use the scan mid in the footwells which didnt necessitate gaving a smaller driver. I think overall ill be happier getting something on the dash...



simplicityinsound said:


> i could be wrong here since i havent picked up a 430 in a while, but isnt that driver one of the bigger midranges in that class? and with its outboard mounting hole tabs, to make it a flush mount will it be any smaller than what you have now? i mean like realistically making a difference smaller?
> 
> i could be wrong though but just dont remembering the dyn as what i would call a really small mid...


The diameter is smaller by an inch i think, and the depth is much shallower, which should aide in a possible off axis install. I think ill make some rings up girst before i commit to anything... 

So, in looking at different drivers, i think i would like to do a comparo and keep whichever works best... 

Focal 3w (if i can find one)
Dyn 430
Scan 10f
Fountex 88?

But who knows... 

Maybe i can just do a 2 way with the 18wu and some tweets and be happy...

But lets not loose sight of the goal of this build... to make it as good as possible so i wont want to change it again. I dont want to wonder what could have been...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ultimatemj said:


> Just guessing, but it looks like on-axis is a part of bikinpunk's approach...and the the 10f's top end looks to be quite HOT in that application.
> 
> Fountek FR88 looks like a strong candidate. Small, wide band, low distortion, and good 30deg polar response.
> 
> ...



I would choose the 10f over all these options. I've had and tested each of them. for this application, the 10f is the better choice. The FR is one of the flattest I've seen. Used as a midrange from about 350-5khz, it's nearly unbeatable.

And, I HIGHLY recommend staying on axis. Once you go off axis, you're going to get comb filtering like a mother and all that work to find the best position/aiming will immediately go out the window. I don't need data to show me that... I've got enough experience with it myself. That's why my last 3 installs have been on-axis installs. Can't beat directivity, IMO. Regardless of how flat the bandpass is, firing drivers across a dash is an acoustical NIGHTMARE.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> Maybe i can just do a 2 way with the 18wu and some tweets and be happy...


truthfully, I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised with this option as well. I prefer a dedicated midrange but the 18wu is a great driver in a 2-way application as well.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I would choose the 10f over all these options. I've had and tested each of them. for this application, the 10f is the better choice. The FR is one of the flattest I've seen. Used as a midrange from about 350-5khz, it's nearly unbeatable.
> 
> And, I HIGHLY recommend staying on axis. Once you go off axis, you're going to get comb filtering like a mother and all that work to find the best position/aiming will immediately go out the window. I don't need data to show me that... I've got enough experience with it myself. That's why my last 3 installs have been on-axis installs. Can't beat directivity, IMO. Regardless of how flat the bandpass is, firing drivers across a dash is an acoustical NIGHTMARE.


It's also a little more efficient due to the 33% greater surface area isn't it?


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> i could be wrong here since i havent picked up a 430 in a while, but isnt that driver one of the bigger midranges in that class? and with its outboard mounting hole tabs, to make it a flush mount will it be any smaller than what you have now? i mean like realistically making a difference smaller?
> 
> i could be wrong though but just dont remembering the dyn as what i would call a really small mid...


yeah, i think it's kinda huge...maybe not to some other 4", but on the dash, only in certain cars. i really don't think any 4" will fit and look even half way decent on that dash. but, maybe i'm too picky about cosmetics.

I think I'm about to destroy my dash and loose the passenger airbag to mount a 4" in my dash. LOL


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know....the 430 is only 1/2" bigger overall from the 10f and requires 1/2 the enclosure size with a lot lower fs.


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> I would choose the 10f over all these options. I've had and tested each of them. for this application, the 10f is the better choice. The FR is one of the flattest I've seen. Used as a midrange from about 350-5khz, it's nearly unbeatable.
> 
> And, I HIGHLY recommend staying on axis. Once you go off axis, you're going to get comb filtering like a mother and all that work to find the best position/aiming will immediately go out the window. I don't need data to show me that... I've got enough experience with it myself. That's why my last 3 installs have been on-axis installs. Can't beat directivity, IMO. Regardless of how flat the bandpass is, firing drivers across a dash is an acoustical NIGHTMARE.



Looking at the specs for the 10f (I hope I had the right driver specs), it's max long term power is ONLY 30 watts? Is this true? I would think that would be a large limitation. I do agree it has a super nice frequency response especially 30 degrees off axis (out to almost 10 kHz). I do not like how bright it appears to be on axis above about 4-5 kHz from its on axis response plot however. Please, let me know if I have the wrong specs or driver here. I was going by:
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/10f-4424g00.pdf


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

james2266 said:


> Looking at the specs for the 10f (I hope I had the right driver specs), it's max long term power is ONLY 30 watts? Is this true? I would think that would be a large limitation. I do agree it has a super nice frequency response especially 30 degrees off axis (out to almost 10 kHz). I do not like how bright it appears to be on axis above about 4-5 kHz from its on axis response plot however. Please, let me know if I have the wrong specs or driver here. I was going by:
> http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/10f-4424g00.pdf


I would imagine that number is with no crossover. With a proper crossover, letting it play in a passband that is within the drivers capabilities, that power number would go way up. Probably in the 100-150watt range.


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> I would imagine that number is with no crossover. With a proper crossover, letting it play in a passband that is within the drivers capabilities, that power number would go way up. Probably in the 100-150watt range.


After I posted that I relooked and I think you are right. On the illuminators series they list off a crossover but not so on the other lines. Strange...

Not to derail this or jump on some else's thread, can someone PM me and let me know what comb filtering sounds like to the ear when it comes to tweeters and also woofers? I know that it affects frequency response but wonder what it does for the sound itself screechy?, uneven, localizeable, etc? Please PM that tho. Thanks. 

Back to this awesome build. I am curious what you end up using for midrange or if you end up going back to 2 way.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

james2266 said:


> After I posted that I relooked and I think you are right. On the illuminators series they list off a crossover but not so on the other lines. Strange...
> 
> Not to derail this or jump on some else's thread, can someone PM me and let me know what comb filtering sounds like to the ear when it comes to tweeters and also woofers? I know that it affects frequency response but wonder what it does for the sound itself screechy?, uneven, localizeable, etc? Please PM that tho. Thanks.
> 
> Back to this awesome build. I am curious what you end up using for midrange or if you end up going back to 2 way.


or you could just answer in this thread too


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Matt,

When's the last time you had a 2-way setup?


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> or you could just answer in this thread too


Thanks, Matty didn't want to side track this excellent thread with this even if I think this answer is very relevant for alot of people here. Hopefully, someone gives us their wisdom now


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

fish said:


> Matt,
> 
> When's the last time you had a 2-way setup?


back when i worked in a car stereo shop... i've always preferred a 3 way set up since, so it's been a while...


----------



## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Have you seen this thread?
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1579824-post142.html








If you can win the Emma competition with it it should work right? The mids aimed to the windshield and tweeters on axis...
His dash isn't stock by any means but not many have that size mids anyway. Not to mention the 10" in the kicks...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

james2266 said:


> After I posted that I relooked and I think you are right. On the illuminators series they list off a crossover but not so on the other lines. Strange...
> 
> Not to derail this or jump on some else's thread, can someone PM me and let me know what comb filtering sounds like to the ear when it comes to tweeters and also woofers? I know that it affects frequency response but wonder what it does for the sound itself screechy?, uneven, localizeable, etc? Please PM that tho. Thanks.
> 
> Back to this awesome build. I am curious what you end up using for midrange or if you end up going back to 2 way.


what I'm referring to is constructive and destructive interference. it's what creates a saw tooth looking frequency response and while some is perfectly acceptable, the majority is not. Imagine going to a speaker system that sounds great. Good response out the box; flat FR in a wide room. No coloration of sound.
Then start using your EQ and hammering that FR until it looks like a bunch of triangles butted up against each other. This is reflective of comb filtering (though, without the added power it consumes to create a boost electrically).

What it sounds like is a bad speaker and a lot of miscues in the soundstage. You might be able to get the FR to something respectable again but when the environment and install is what is at the root of the issue, you can't really do much. You can't fix a phase issue that's based on install relative to listener location. You can knock down the peaks so it blends better but it will NEVER sound as good as an install that's less prone to these kind of issues. (note: yes, to you who have mids/tweeters across your dash, sure it may sound great, but you're missing the point... it can sound better). People use dash mats but they don't really solve the problem. They may help against a wandering stage to some degree but I wouldn't put stock in one to save my soundstage.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> back when i worked in a car stereo shop... i've always preferred a 3 way set up since, so it's been a while...


I didn't think I had seen any of your build logs pertaining to one. 

Another thought... have you considered dual 2" mids (Aura Whispers)? They're so small it would give you many more mounting/aiming options. There is the threat of comb filtering though.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

erin,
thanks for your tips on comb filtering... it finally makes sense to me 

the shape of my dash is limiting my options, and the rake of my windshield... if i want to go on axis still, i'll need to get smaller midranges... if i want something bigger, i'll have to go off axis and deal with comb filtering...

here are the speakers that I'm considering for various reasons... please let me know if you think there is anything else that should be on this list... 

based on the results, i think the dyn is out... what i'm going to do is build some rings and play with some positioning with the tweeter rings... i should be able to have a good idea of what's going to work from a size perspective

................................................................................


Scan 12mu
- 120 mm od – 4.7”
- 70 depth – 2.75” 
--	too deep to fire off axis
--	to large to push back into dash before hitting windshield

Focal 3w2
-	88mm od – 3.46”	
-	36 depth – 1.4”
	flat on and off axis response through 4-5k, usable response down to 300hz

Scan 10f
-	97.5 od – 3.83”
-	40 depth – 1.57”
	flatish off axis response through 10k, usable response down to 250-300hz
	rising on axis response at 2k 

Dyn 430
-	110 od – 4.33”
-	42 depth – 1.65”
	dipping off axis response at 3k, flat on axis, usable down to 200hz
	only .5” depth difference from 12mu, won’t give me much difference from scan

L3SE
-	93 od – 3.66”
-	44 depth – 1.73”
	bumpy ride along the spectrum, usable response down to 200hz
	

L4SE
-	118 od – 4.65”
-	56 depth – 2.2”
	same outer diameter of scan 12mu, enough said
	
Audison TH 3.0
-	84 od – 3.3”
-	45 depth – 1.77”
	flattish off axis response, dip at 2k, usable down to 300,200hz
	rising on axis response at 2k

Fountek FR 88ex
-	88.5 od – 3.48”
-	38 depth – 1.5”
	plots don’t show off and on axis response, probably xmax limited around 250hz
	small diameter looks good, not a lot of info


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Wesayso said:


> Have you seen this thread?
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1579824-post142.html
> 
> 
> ...


my wife wouldn't think twice before serving me with papers if i did that...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

fish said:


> I didn't think I had seen any of your build logs pertaining to one.
> 
> Another thought... have you considered dual 2" mids (Aura Whispers)? They're so small it would give you many more mounting/aiming options. There is the threat of comb filtering though.


yeah, that's a no go for me


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> erin,
> thanks for your tips on comb filtering... it finally makes sense to me
> 
> the shape of my dash is limiting my options, and the rake of my windshield... if i want to go on axis still, i'll need to get smaller midranges... if i want something bigger, i'll have to go off axis and deal with comb filtering...
> ...


Matty, If you are considering the Audison TH3.0, you might want to also look at the Hertz ML700 3 inch driver that I have and will eventually go 3 way with. I've only had maybe a few mins of play time with them so far but I have heard them in a demo vehicle well setup and the image was perfect and high straight across the dash. It was impressive enough for me to purchase them anyways. I am not to your level of equipment however.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

james2266 said:


> Matty, If you are considering the Audison TH3.0, you might want to also look at the Hertz ML700 3 inch driver that I have and will eventually go 3 way with. I've only had maybe a few mins of play time with them so far but I have heard them in a demo vehicle well setup and the image was perfect and high straight across the dash. It was impressive enough for me to purchase them anyways. I am not to your level of equipment however.


Thanks for the suggestion... 

Added to the list:

88 mm OD - 3.5"
38 mm depth - 1.5"
--rising frequency response from 250 to about 3K where things get a bit bumpy... sharp off axis drop off at 2.5k


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Look at the scan 12m rev. That would be in my top four...
Scan 12m, 12mu, 10f, Dyn 430. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

The Thesis 3.0 is discontinued, but not saying you might be able to find a pair still. Just FYI.

Maybe, if possible, find Casey from Morel in AZ and have a listen to his new Virtus 3way setup with one of their new dome mids.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Look at the scan 12m rev. That would be in my top four...
> Scan 12m, 12mu, 10f, Dyn 430.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


12m diameter is just about the same as the 12mu, so i don't think that's going to work... 

the 10f is still a stretch, but the other 3 on the list are probably going to get nixed just because they are too big... i'd like to find a way to get something this big to fit right, but as we've discussed, it's probably not going to work.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

My bad. Thought it was a tad smaller. The depth isn't as much but that may not help anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

consider what passband you'd like to use. look at where the distortion for each driver increased. zaph measured the 10f and 12mu and 12m. i've measured the dyn 430 and fountek fr88. personally, I'm not at all impressed by the fountek. it wouldn't even _be_ on my list. there's a shelving filter built in to it somehow that boosts the output above 1khz. I don't like this.

these are exports of my klippel testing at 1/2m, adjusted for approximate 2.83v/1m response. I may be off by about a half dB or so but that's about it. this gives you a pretty good idea of the near side response in your car.
dyn in green
fr88 in blue


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

I know giving you another option won't help you but might be an alternative to your problem: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1569693-post23.html 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

From another thread: 









ZR Speaker Lab - ZR Planar Overview <-- could be what you've been waiting for 

Kelvin


----------



## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Whoa! Those ZRs are sweet looking! 

Say mattyjman....I was rereading your OP and was curious about one of your comments about your old install. Can you elaborate on "The L4SE's were good, but didn't blend well with the midbass (L6SE's). They required a 500hz highpass in order to sound right"?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

yea, zr makes some killer looking stuff. I'm curious how it actually compares to other products out there. I sent an email to them a while back about getting some to test but never heard back. such is life.


Matt, updates?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have another option...horns...

I got my first listen to my micro-umity today. Made a post about it on PB's forum.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ultimatemj said:


> Whoa! Those ZRs are sweet looking!
> 
> Say mattyjman....I was rereading your OP and was curious about one of your comments about your old install. Can you elaborate on "The L4SE's were good, but didn't blend well with the midbass (L6SE's). They required a 500hz highpass in order to sound right"?


this was probably install limited... the best crossover for the l4se's was at 500 hz, but the tradeoff was a rainbowing of the stage. As the l6se's sttarted to come in, they were doing so at a high enough frequency that it would draw the stage towards me and down... 

it was less of a problem when i added the x65's though... not sure why.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> yea, zr makes some killer looking stuff. I'm curious how it actually compares to other products out there. I sent an email to them a while back about getting some to test but never heard back. such is life.
> 
> 
> Matt, updates?


not quite yet...


----------



## knysten (Nov 4, 2009)

I have an E91 335myself and will install Brax Matrix 3.1 mids together with NOX20 tweeters. I currently have ss d602010 tweeters together with the m12's. Tw installed in the sails and mids at factory door placement. Problem seems to be that I'm unable to aim the mids closer to on-axis. The illuminator tweets work great. Anyway: I know Brax from my previous install and it's a great brand. The Matrix 1.1 and 2.1 combo was awesome.Contacted Germany and decided I will have the Matrix 3.1 in the sail panel in a 4-5dl enclosure (recommended by the technical director himself, filled with lambs wool) and combine them with the tiny nox20 tweeters. Apparently these tweeters will sound at least as good as the 1.1 if they are crossed at 5k or higher which should mean very good.
Not installed yet so can't tell you if it works but that enclosure should be possible to do so that it looks good. Just a thought.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> yea, zr makes some killer looking stuff. I'm curious how it actually compares to other products out there. I sent an email to them a while back about getting some to test but never heard back. such is life.
> 
> 
> Matt, updates?


Not quite sure I'm reading it right but it seems like the mounting depth is 1.16"  That's freakin' shallow!!!!! 

Kelvin


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Awesome build! 

Subscribed 

.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Jason - Can you provide the link to the Unity Horn thread, I couldn't find it.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Just found it:
Audio Psychosis • View topic - Micro-Unity powered up for first time


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> Jason - Can you provide the link to the Unity Horn thread, I couldn't find it.



This one?

Audio Psychosis • View topic - Micro-Unity powered up for first time


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

times are a changing....


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

you can't do that, man!

lol.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i'll post up some thoughts in a bit... i'm in class right now

but yes, i can do that. and i think there is a good reason too


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i'll post up some thoughts in a bit... i'm in class right now
> 
> but yes, i can do that. and i think there is a good reason too


i just meant you can't drop something like that without an explanation and then leave. 




Class? That's late!


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Class? That's late!



Is Phoenix in the Mountain or Pacific time zone? Either way, still pretty late for class.

Looking forward to the next change up.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

fish said:


> Is Phoenix in the Mountain or Pacific time zone? Either way, still pretty late for class.
> 
> Looking forward to the next change up.


pacific right now... night class and University of Phoenix


----------



## Hdale85 (Jan 21, 2012)

Isn't all of AZ in MST? It was when I was there....lol


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

we are aligned mountain time half the year, and pacific time half the year... we don't do daylight savings time


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Part of Ohio does the same, IIRC

Matt, what's your major? Grad or undergrad?


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## Hdale85 (Jan 21, 2012)

Yeah, MST never changes, but I see what you mean now.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Part of Ohio does the same, IIRC
> 
> Matt, what's your major? Grad or undergrad?
> 
> ...


Finally finishing my undergrad in business... 

i can't really say i'm proud to be attending UofP, but my wife works there and i get a good tuition discount, so it would be kind of dumb to not take advantage of it. 

i know it's a bit off topic, but i think a large portion of the higher education segment has lost value in the workplace. the way i see it, the degree offers a foot in the door with employers, the rest is what you bring to the table in the form of experience and expertise... most of which you can't learn in school. 

fortunately, in my case, i'm already well underway in practicing in my "business" field, and so the degree will just round out my resume... there isn't any other value to me other than that. 

just my two cents on that. (i know you didn't ask, but i feel compelled to share my opinion on today's educational opportunities)


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> i just meant you can't drop something like that without an explanation and then leave.


Ok, here goes... 

I had an epiphany the other day, and with that I didn't decide to go in a completely different direction, but think i found a more reasonable methodology to getting my audio nirvana. 

so, in my first post, I mentioned a few things about what I hoped to gain this time around:



> I'd like to think that there is a pinnacle that can be achieved in car stereo, within a certain means and margin, and this is what I'm striving to achieve. Obviously, this also includes a certain amount of compromises, both to aesthetics, locations, and sound quality results.
> 
> While I know this build won't be perfect (i have no illusions about that), I also know I can get it pretty darn good by following some simple rules:
> 
> ...


Here is a couple of observations I can comment on with my newfound thought process (these are simply my opinions - it may not be gospel to others)

"Pinnacle Can Be Achieved" - sure, but at what cost? both time and money...

"Compromises, both to aesthetics, locations, and sound quality results" - I think this has ended up being more of a balancing act than I thought...

"Understand Install Limitations" - quite a bit when it comes to what you are really willing to compromise on ...

"Get the best gear for install" - what shape does this take place, and where is the point of diminishing returns...




First, I don't plan to ever compete. I just don't think I have that in me. It's cool, sure, to be able to have bragging rights about how well your system reproduces a soundstage, but I don't think I'm willing to put in the energy and effort to get to that "level". 

Second, most of these "competition" sound systems sound best when the car ISN'T running. What good does that do me? I'm not the type of person to go out and eat dinner in my car, in the garage, listening to my stereo. Now that's a bit of exageration, but the point is, if I'm never going to be listening to my system in a stationary environment, and there is always going to be road noise, there there is a whole another level of equipment that isn't worth purchasing to me, but might be to the competitor. In my case, the point of diminishing returns happens much faster that someone who may be a competitor. 

The amount of time that people take tweaking, measuring, reinstalling, etc... that just isn't for me. I think some amount of measuring is certainly helpful, but I'm not about to go buy 4 RTA mics, 3 different pieces of software, and a averaging device just so i can tune my car. I don't think i'm at that point where I would be able to tell a great system from an astonishing system. Others probably have a tuned ear well enough to do so, I hope to God I never get there -- I think it would drive me insane knowing there is more to get. 

The compromises that must be made along the way is far to excessive as well. You buy very expensive drivers,and unless you are willing to put locations up against the aesthetics, then you might as well have a cheaper driver that would perform just as good in a subpar location. Because here is the truth of the matter... I don't want any piece of my car looking like it doesn't belong there. Some of this factors in my lack of artistic/creative ability, the other just natural limitations. 

For example, my interest in picking up the Scan 12MU was because of the ability to have a dynamic listening experience. However, in my trying to figure out what would look better and still sound decent, I found myself compromising on my sound quality goals to get something in that would be aesthetically appealing. 

Bottom line for me was this -- I'm not going to spend the massive amount of time to get every ounce of performance out of the equipment I've purchased. -- Compromises to locations have me looking at lower performing drivers, which will ultimately mean a less than desired outcome. -- As long as I can have a decent soundstage and achieve a fun and dynamic experience, while driving, I think I'll be happier with the outcome than with a system that sounds great in a sound off competition. 

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense, but it's simply weighing the costs/benefits of each of my choices when it comes to the stereo. 

So, my goals haven't really changed. I think my method of achieving those goals is radically different, but probably more in line with the experience that I want to have. 




I'm going to be selling the TRU gear I have... I think it was a useless expense, and my Mosconi amps haven't been selling for what I wanted, so it looks like I have an easy solution. 

I'm ditching conventional drivers and returning to the darkside... Horns.  

This will give me decent staging, great dynamics and tonality, and something to keep up with me when I drop the convertible top. 

Since I'm going with horns, I've had to rethink my driver setup, and have two different solutions I'm going to attempt.. a 10" and an 8" mid/midbass driver. These will go in the kicks, venting to the outside utilizing the cuts I've already made. 

Subs... I don't think the E1200 is going to cut it with horns, so I'll be attempting to shoehorn 4 8" subs in a ported enclosure, still utilizing the skipass as a way to seal off the trunk. 

So, that's what's going on now. Like I said, it's just my opinion, but I think it makes sense.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Welcome back to the dark side then  

One thing that might be worth trying is a shallow upfront subwoofer in the passenger's kicks... My next project when I'm on vacation

Kelvin


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Welcome back to the dark side then
> 
> One thing that might be worth trying is a shallow upfront subwoofer in the passenger's kicks... My next project when I'm on vacation
> 
> Kelvin


after I have the 10's in the kicks, there really won't be room for anything else unless I want to sacrafice foot space... 

it's something that i've thought about however.


----------



## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Matt, I totally understand where you're coming from. Having just attended SBN for the first time in 13 years and listening to several of the top competition systems I've come to the realization how far one has to go to achieve that "level" in the car environment due to the inherent obstacles. I also realized how far from these systems my car is currently. That's not to say my car with the right tuning couldn't compete in the lower classes it's that there isn't a chance in hell it could compete in the top classes with the guys that cut holes in and rebuild their dashes and such.

I think the new goal you have set for yourself is certainly achievable. I just hope you're not like me. Do yourself a favor and don't listen to really good competition cars because once you hear what's possible you'll never be happy until you get there yourself .


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Horns...they are good.


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Back to horns! 

I'm confused though... did you say an 8" AND a 10" driver in the kicks, or one or the other?


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

fish said:


> Back to horns!
> 
> I'm confused though... did you say an 8" AND a 10" driver in the kicks, or one or the other?


i have two different drivers I'm going to try out


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i have two different drivers I'm going to try out


Oh, ok. That makes sense.

Are you revealing what they are yet?


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

fish said:


> Oh, ok. That makes sense.
> 
> Are you revealing what they are yet?


one set i'm not going to comment on until i hear them.. they come recommended from Mic10is so I thought i'd pick up some... those are the 8's. 

The 10's are Faital Pros... here's a link if you are interested...

Faital Pro 10FH500 10" Speakers - Faital Pro 10FH500 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and subwoofer 10" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 10FH500 1,200 watt 10" efficiency of 96dB SPL woofer for all high power bass application

I still have the Ciare midsbass drivers as well, but I was messing around with them, and there was a bit of a flutter coming from them in free air. I'm not sure what that was, but my guess is that will color some of the midrange... I'll try them out and see anyway... so i guess i really have three mid's to try...

http://usspeaker.com/ciare ndc8-3-1.htm

the horns are minis and will be paired with the B&C DE500's... 

power break down will be fun...

the Mosconi AS 200.4 amps (I have 2) will output 200 watts at 4 ohms... will do 600 watts bridged at 4 ohms, and will do 950 in a bridged 2 ohm load. 

So horns will be on 100 watts or so...
Mids on 600 watts
4 8" subs on 950 ported. 

- it should be a pretty fun set up. especially in my tiny car....


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> one set i'm not going to comment on until i hear them.. they come recommended from Mic10is so I thought i'd pick up some... those are the 8's.
> 
> The 10's are Faital Pros... here's a link if you are interested...
> 
> ...


This all in a tiny Beemer? Holy! I guess those Mosconi's are now back in service. Sniff. Still don't know which way I want to ultimately go. This should be very loud with a ton of midbass. My kind of ride 

I thought I had a growing stockpile of no longer in use stuff and then I see your stockpile. Wish I had that kind of a budget to purchase like this. I hope it all works out for ya man. I wish I was close enough to check out your ride and stockpile


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

as far as pics, this is all i have so far...

i had an old type e 10" sub laying around, so before I jumped the gun, i played around with position and found that while there was no way of these not taking up some space, i can get them to where they will be unobtrusive and hidden away...

here are some placement pics to give you an idea of what's taking place here:




























i needed to trim a bit more carpet than i had initially. no big deal, as these enclosures and surrounding areas will be covered in similar looking carpet... should be a seemless kick install... and no one that wouldn't know about it, won't know about it, until the slam kills them in the chest 

after some masking:



















and then after a few layers of 2oz mat...



















and the pods as they are now...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I also took the opportunity to make some rings for the ib enclosures...

i used low temp plastic to form the lip, and also made some modular rings to allow my 8" and 10" drivers to fit the same ring diameter.


----------



## Mopar244DIY (Dec 1, 2009)

I look for this threads updates everyday. Love it.


----------



## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> as far as pics, this is all i have so far...
> 
> i had an old type e 10" sub laying around, so before I jumped the gun, i played around with position and found that while there was no way of these not taking up some space, i can get them to where they will be unobtrusive and hidden away...
> 
> ...


Awesome! Mmmm I love the smell of resin in the morning .


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> Awesome! Mmmm I love the smell of rein in the morning .


mmm, not me. these molds were in the car curing for almost two days....

i keep having weird experiences with my glassing, it's odd...

i wrote a question that i don't think anyone has answered yet:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-trade/126646-quick-question-about-resin.html

i suspect leaving the resin to oxygenate does some weird things in the mix. 

in my case, i thought i was using more than enough mekp as the batch would start to gel within 10 minutes or so... i've always had more layup time available before things start to catalyze ....

however, i would keep going back in to check the mold, and it was still wet. they had been in there for almost 1 1/2 days and i had to pull them out semi cured due to my need to drive the car...

after setting in the sun for a day they are fully set... hows that for a weird experience?


----------



## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> mmm, not me. these molds were in the car curing for almost two days....


I guess it's an acquired love .



mattyjman said:


> i keep having weird experiences with my glassing, it's odd...
> 
> i wrote a question that i don't think anyone has answered yet:
> 
> ...


What king of resin are you using? Some resins can vary from batch to batch. I stray away from "boatyard" resin (even though you may get lucky with a particular batch) and always spend a little more for a higher quality resin. It's certainly not necessary but I like consistency and knowing what to expect.


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm digging this reinvigorating route you've taken Matt. Hell yeah!  I hope the 10's work out.


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## nepl29 (Mar 25, 2007)

Mirage_Man said:


> Matt, I totally understand where you're coming from. Having just attended SBN for the first time in 13 years and listening to several of the top competition systems I've come to the realization how far one has to go to achieve that "level" in the car environment due to the inherent obstacles. I also realized how far from these systems my car is currently. That's not to say my car with the right tuning couldn't compete in the lower classes it's that there isn't a chance in hell it could compete in the top classes with the guys that cut holes in and rebuild their dashes and such.
> 
> I think the new goal you have set for yourself is certainly achievable. I just hope you're not like me. Do yourself a favor and don't listen to really good competition cars because once you hear what's possible you'll never be happy until you get there yourself .



I dont think you have to cut your dash to compete at the highest level. I heard at least 12 cars in SBN and most of them did not have cut dashes. Did you get a chance to demo Steve vehicles? Specially the Aspen with 3 speakers 1 amp set up? Big Meat dash wasnt cut and it wont its class. Focal had a 328i that had an install with stock locations that sounded awesome and a mazda with ms-8 that wasn't bad at all.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> I guess it's an acquired love .
> 
> 
> 
> What king of resin are you using? Some resins can vary from batch to batch. I stray away from "boatyard" resin (even though you may get lucky with a particular batch) and always spend a little more for a higher quality resin. It's certainly not necessary but I like consistency and knowing what to expect.


it's us composites... never had any problems before ....


----------



## Complacent_One (Jul 2, 2009)

I picked up a 5 gallon container last year, and when I went to take the cap off the bladder, the bladder tore at the neck. So to attempt to keep the air out, I used some duct tape like a flap. Well the batches for the first month or so were great. After that, the subsequent batches got more and more inconsistent. I think part of it was the exposure to oxygen and the other issue was my garage was 95 degrees plus for like 6 months. Pretty sure that if I mixed the container prior to pouring it would have made some difference, but kind of tough without a good seal on top.


----------



## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

nepl29 said:


> I dont think you have to cut your dash to compete at the highest level. I heard at least 12 cars in SBN and most of them did not have cut dashes. Did you get a chance to demo Steve vehicles? Specially the Aspen with 3 speakers 1 amp set up? Big Meat dash wasnt cut and it wont its class. Focal had a 328i that had an install with stock locations that sounded awesome and a mazda with ms-8 that wasn't bad at all.


Yes, I did listen to both of Steve's rides. They were_ the best _I was able to listen to at the show. I just assumed since Big Meat's dash had what appeared to be custom made grill cover along the front of the dash that there was some custom work done to the dash.

If I'm able to achieve that level of realism without hacking up my dash I'll be ecstatic!


----------



## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> it's us composites... never had any problems before ....


Ah, yeah me neither. Good stuff.

Don't know then.  Did you try contacting them to ask?


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> Ah, yeah me neither. Good stuff.
> 
> Don't know then.  Did you try contacting them to ask?


no... it's probably from it being oxygenated... it was the end of the can anyway...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

so, finally got the faitals, so i can continue the build up of the kicks... i was waiting to see how far i could push the rings back...

today i can't do anything because it's too late, but i have my weekend cut out for me now 

here are a few shots for ****s and giggles :


















the grills fit perfectly:


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

One step forward two steps back....and the beat goes on and on...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> One step forward two steps back....and the beat goes on and on...


from uniformity to nonconformity? or you know something I don't?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's fun to play around with new speakers and things...but once you've heard and felt what big mids and midbasses can do...it's really hard to be really happy with anything else.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

short break while the molds are curing...

this morning i started at the molds... after a brief trimming to get them in the car, i was able to mark where i wanted things cut



















and then positioning the speakers with the rings... this proved to be a bit more difficult than i had anticipated, as the speakers don't leave much room for the horn bodies. also i wanted everything symetrical, and because of the way that the passenger kick is padded, i had to recess the speaker in a bit. 



















and with the mold cloth pulled and the first layer of resin...


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I always mount the horn 1st before I ever mount the Mids


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i've mounted the same horns in here previously... i know exactly where they are going, so i wasn't too worried about that. 

if i didn't know exactly how they were going to go in, then that school of thought is always the best... 

let me see if i can rustle up a pic

edit: here they are:


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Id move the horn wider...thats just me tho


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

this time around they'll be going as wide as i can, but there isn't much more room to give... the de500 magnet in those pictures is pretty close to hitting the side wall...


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> this time around they'll be going as wide as i can, but there isn't much more room to give... the de500 magnet in those pictures is pretty close to hitting the side wall...


Cut a hole
most of us Old skool horn users, cut holes to sink the compression driver in so the horn is as wide as possible.
Then we either make a glass bowl type structure or simply use something like an XTC baffle to seal the hole and allow the compression driver something to sit in thats weather proof.

in my BMW edge of the mouth is 1/4" from the inner fender/Kick panel.
Compression driver sits inside the fender.

Check the horn pics, winslow aka hatedguy may have pics of what he did in his accord.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I figured you would mention that... 

i've cut about as much as i'm going to cut in this car... i've seen some pictures of what you are talking about in the horn install thread


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You mean when I cut the wheel well and stuck the motors partially outside the car? There are a few pictures of that in the HLCD section.



Mic10is said:


> Cut a hole
> most of us Old skool horn users, cut holes to sink the compression driver in so the horn is as wide as possible.
> Then we either make a glass bowl type structure or simply use something like an XTC baffle to seal the hole and allow the compression driver something to sit in thats weather proof.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> *I figured you would mention that... *
> 
> i've cut about as much as i'm going to cut in this car... i've seen some pictures of what you are talking about in the horn install thread




...well obviously it isnt enough cutting if compression drivers are still inside the cabin

on driver side looks like a wire harness needs moved, I cant tell for sure what all is there but it looks like it can be moved and at least get the horn as wide as physically possible.
Passenger side looks much easier


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

this is the part of the build process that appears slow and arduous... and you have nothing to show for it. 

at the current time i'm reinforcing my kicks... i trimmed them up, slapped in the Faital 10's and looked into the horn placement... here are a few pics for your enjoyment...



















view from the drivers seat: (horn is not visible)










and you get closer and see the horn mock up










it's pretty tight in there... but i made a small goof... i took into account the mouth of the horns, and the needed height... however, on the right side, i didn't cut the back of the mold enough to allow room for the magnet on the compression driver. 

it fits, as you can see, but i had to wedge it in there, and that's unacceptable. 

I ended up pulling the kick, trimming part of it away, and re-molded the top of the enclosure with a few layers of chop mat... 

now the horn can slide in without a problem. 










once this cures i'll be mixing up some mortar and slapping that on the inside of the entire kick area to deaden/strengthen the mold. these are going to be firing IB, but I just don't want to take the chance of having any sort of enclosure resonance.


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Those mids are pretty flush in the kicks - for some 10's.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ they are a super tight fit... almost too tight,, i can barely get the right mid in


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

What happens if the horns don't cut it for you?....Then what


----------



## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

10"s in kicks?! youguys are crazy! wish i had the skills and bawlz to do that to my car...

CC

sub'ed!


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

trojan fan said:


> What happens if the horns don't cut it for you?....Then what


He'll probably just sell the car and get a Toyota FJ or something. LOL

Jay


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> What happens if the horns don't cut it for you?....Then what





JayinMI said:


> He'll probably just sell the car and get a Toyota FJ or something. LOL
> 
> Jay


Very Funny guys... :laugh::laugh: This isn't my first go around with horns... I'm pretty darn sure you won't see me switching out that part of the install. 

I have been thinking about a new car though....


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> Very Funny guys... :laugh::laugh: This isn't my first go around with horns... I'm pretty darn sure you won't see me switching out that part of the install.
> 
> I have been thinking about a new car though....






trojan fan said:


> One step forward two steps back....and the beat goes on and on...


Exactly....:laugh:

maybe home audio is your true calling

J/K with you Matt


----------



## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I gotta give you props on your patience with your multiple attempts on the fiberglassing.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

"I gotta give you props on your patience with your multiple attempts on the fiberglassing."






i gotta admit, that's probably one of the few things that i actually like to do. i know i'm not freaking awesome at it or anything, but i find the whole process really invigorating. it's a tedious process, but fun at the same time. 

you'll laugh, but when i finished the right kick, with the cutout for the horn driver, and it cured.... I took it into my wife and said "look at how cool this is"... 










what's cool about it? nothing... maybe except for the fact that it was so easy and almost appears like it was meant to be there... but really, who think my wife or anyone else really gives a ****? 

but i really do like the process... in small spades. when the project takes forever, then i start to loose my patience. 

but thanks


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

okay, so my next challenge...

subs.


here is a picture of my top in progress.... 










because of this, you can imagine that your typical "slap a sub in the trunk" method just won't work. any type of energy that is transfered into the trunk area is going to drive me nuts with rattles. 

so, all "bass" must go through here:










and stay in the cabin...

therein lies my dilema....

i have 4 type r 8"s that i want to run ported... but i don't want to take up the whole trunk to do it. 

if you notice in the first pic, there is this little "shelf" that has to lay down in order for the top to work... 

if you were to mock up the "inside" shape of my limits, this is what it would look like with the ski pass included... (the box doesn't need to extend out so deep... in fact i don't want it to, but it's just for illustrative purposes)










my question is, how do i get all 4 subs firing through the ski pass AND a port?

can't be a slot port obviously, as there is a sloping back on the box. 

i'm not expecting anyone to do my work for me, but simply looking for suggestions. plus i'm brainstorming while writing this anyway...


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

IMO, if you want to get all of the bass into the car in those cars, you need to really be thinking about a 4th order bandpass.

You can use a port to get it into the car or you can use a passive radiator over a port for the bandpass.


----------



## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> you'll laugh, but when i finished the right kick, with the cutout for the horn driver, and it cured.... I took it into my wife and said "look at how cool this is"...


I gave up showing my wife anything because I just get the old,"that's nice dear" kind of response. :laugh:


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> IMO, if you want to get all of the bass into the car in those cars, you need to really be thinking about a 4th order bandpass.
> 
> You can use a port to get it into the car or you can use a passive radiator over a port for the bandpass.


i thought about that... but the box size would be astronomical... i'm trying to keep the whole thing at or just about 2 cubes if i could...


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> okay, so my next challenge...
> 
> subs.
> 
> ...


Just wondering what kind of processing you're planning to use? I'm asking coz I might be able to design something simple that doesn't take a lot of space but you need a parametric EQ for that - and lots of power... 

Here's a design for 2 x Epics (still not built but will soon)... 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1183365-post32.html

Kelvin


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ok, this site is really starting to upset me with all the weird formatting....


kelvin, i am using the bitone... the subs will be running off of one channel...

i'd like to find a way to get the type r's to fit, as i just picked them up. all 4 of them. i need something that will keep up with the front stage when i really want to jam...


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

anyone else have any ideas on how to shoehorn 4 subs in there?

Jason, if i did want to attempt a bandpass design, what would you have in mind given my space constraints?


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> anyone else have any ideas on how to shoehorn 4 subs in there?
> 
> Jason, if i did want to attempt a bandpass design, what would you have in mind given my space constraints?


Maybe a design similar to what Scott Buwalda has in his G35... 
SWR8 on their side firing @ each other... That should make it slim enough not to lose too much trunk. 

Kelvin


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

^that maybe


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Don't have a clue if this would work with your space constraints, but I thought it was nifty. 

http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1573597


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah you could manifold load them..,but would have to be careful not to create an unintentional bad bandpass.

But the key is to force all of the output into the cabin area.


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## Driven Audio Tony (Feb 14, 2011)

I know you want to use 4, but I think doing a 4th order bandpass that fits in the airspace you have and use the right # of subs will be your best bet. Better less woofers in the right airspace than too many in to little


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Another option, if the top seals enough to separate the 2 sides, simplify and go with a single IB 15 (or 18)!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ the top DOESN'T really seal... you can see that in the picture... talk about rattles galore if I was to go with that option


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm not familiar with the mechanism on your car...many verts have "latches" that clamp it tight!

GL


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

bertholomey said:


> Don't have a clue if this would work with your space constraints, but I thought it was nifty.
> 
> Alfa romeo ib project - DIYMA Car Audio Forum


Thats a custom made Coustic Basspump. That should work


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

That Coustic Basspump is a cool way to use more surface area and excursion, but wouldn't it have the same "challenge" to overcome as a single IB woofer?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Which is manifold loading.



chefhow said:


> Thats a custom made Coustic Basspump. That should work


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I've never seen a Coustic Bandpass before - pretty cool. How do they work exactly?

Where's Bateman when you need 'em? Maybe he's got some ideas.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Manifold loading is very popular in the HT scene with IB subwoofers...usually through the roof or floor of a house. Lot of information out there on it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Linear Power had a manifold system back in the day too. It was cool because it used servo feedback to the amp to help correct the signal.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The manifold system will be technically be a bandpass. You can model the effects in something like winISD. Rough estimate the rear chamber as the remainig trunk volume, the front chamber would be the area in front of the speakers- the manifold volume. The port for the enclosure would be the area and depth of the opening where the manifold exits into the car. The port will have no real depth, like 3/4 of an inch but will have a ton of area. Usually this works out to having little or no bandpass effect on the speakers...or if it does, it is well outside of the crossover point.


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Sorry to ask again, but wouldn't its back wave require the same separation/sealing as any other IB approach? :shrug:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeap


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Hatedguy- would you weigh in on the angled baffle/plate between/loading of the drivers? Thx


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Got a pic?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Guys, I think I made a goof... 

I need someone to help me out for a sec...

i plotted the Faital woofer I'm planning on using in winisd, and the response has a drop off starting around 200hz... 

these are going to be ib... can someone look at the specs and let me know if things should do alright, or if i need to rethink my midbass/midrange driver?

Faital Pro 10FH500 10" Speakers - Faital Pro 10FH500 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and subwoofer 10" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 10FH500 1,200 watt 10" efficiency of 96dB SPL woofer for all high power bass application


----------



## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Got a pic?



Sorry- ref the alfa link earlier in the thread. A'la coustic pass pump


----------



## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Not sure if this post is about your specific R-type driver, but it appears an Alpine PM (jim walter) is active here 



> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1591521-post691.htm"]Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers
> Quick calculation on the phone says 24x12x13. Make the port ~12-15 sq inches.
> 
> The target would be 1.2-1.4 cubes gross and tune it to 33-35 ish.


PM him, his activity shows 23min ago!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> Guys, I think I made a goof...
> 
> I need someone to help me out for a sec...
> 
> ...


The frequency response on and off axis is right at the bottom of that link, Matt.  It doesn't get jagged or roll off til 2khz+. What are you using to model it?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

You should have plenty of output in that region of the frequency spectrum. Especially in the kicks.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

sounds like a stupid concern, but i expected the roll off to be quite a bit shallower than it is ... i'll still try it out and see, but i understand now looking into this a bit more, that a higher qts is better for IB... this is definitely on the low end of that.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

okay, made some great progress today... 

i missed some pics inbetween doing things the last couple of days...

i left off last with the kicks, just starting to be reinforced... 

since then, i layed down a few more layers, and then milkshaked. after the milkshake cured, i layed down a pretty thick layer or mortar (cement mix) to add mass to the molds and to add strength. this made them pretty darn solid 

today, i got started again on the molds, finishing them off with one more layer of milkshake. the mortar was cracking, since it was so thick, so the purpose of this was to seal the mortar in, and provide a nice surface for some deadening material to attach to it ...

here they are, sitting in the sun curing...











at the same time, i prepped the trim ring for wood inserts. the inserts i chose were larger than normal, and i was a bit concerned about the wood splitting since the holes are close to the edge...

i ran some resin over the trim ring, and in the pre-drilled holes to provide some added strength










and then added inserts into each side










then each enclosure received a layer of cld tiles from Don at Sounddeadenershowdown.com




















once all that cured, i was ready to wrap the kicks, so i broke out my container of Dap Landou Top and this is what i saw : 









completely solid. 

turned my attention to a can of 3M 77 and started spraying away

here is the first kick covered and then test fitting in the designated area


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

the other side carpeted with the driver test fitting... this side was a complete pain in the ass to get the driver in... the recessed lip caused me all sorts of grief throughout the last week










once the kicks were all upholstered I turned my attention to the horns... i only have one shot, but the underdash panels have a bunch of vent holes for the heater (which i don't use since AZ is so warm), so i closed those up, to provide as good of a transition as possible for the horns










before chucking the kicks in, i turned my attention to the insides of the kick areas that we cut a while ago... they needed some attention from some cld tiles, so there:










once that was completed, i layed down various strips of don's butyl rope, as a way to secure the enclosure, but to decouple it from the floor as well... here is the start of that process on the right side:










next was to position the enclosure and press against the butyl rope. after it was secured, i turned my attention to sealing the transition from the pod to the kick area, and did so with more cld tiles...










after i got all that done, which was incredibly time consuming, it was time to mount the horns and insert the drivers...



















when you look at it from a regular angle, all you see is the kicks 



















overall, i'm pretty impressed how this all came together. the kicks are no more obtrusive than many that i see built on this forum, despite the fact that these house 10" drivers that are 5" deep. 

i was able to get the horns as far back as they could go - on the drivers side, there is about 1/4" from the horn and the brake bracket. 

i also got them as far left and right as i could... i'm not going to get all concerned about 1 more inch to move left and right, and the amount of work involved to get that .. i'm not sure it's worth it. 

either way, once the grills go on for the kicks, this should look like a pretty factory solution ... ideally, no one will know unless they know what to look for. or until i start some music


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Wow Matt, that came out looking great! 

Did you get a chance to fire it up yet?


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ the goal is to get that result on Sunday...

tomorrow i'm headed over to Mikey's to build a box and amp rack... if everything goes well, i should be bumping to work on Monday!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Looking great!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Looking great!


Agreed  

Kelvin


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm assuming you got a bandpass design?


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> I'm assuming you got a bandpass design?


We're going to start off with three of them vented while PWK takes his sweet ass time on a BP design, so Matt can have some tunes.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> We're going to start off with three of them vented while PWK takes his sweet ass time on a BP design, so Matt can have some tunes.


^^^ That's funny.


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Dude! You have 10's in your kicks! Holy crap! LOL

Nice job. They actually don't look too obtrusive at all. The carpet looks much better at a distance. Almost dead on.

Good choice having Mikey build your box...since it's like a blowthrough (kinda) hehehe

Out of curiosity, about how much was the PWK design? I've been entertaining the thought of having him design a box for our showroom at work (and then maybe for my car) and didn't want to bother him if it was way out of my price range. 

Thanks.

Jay


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

Looking good and love the stealthiness. This thing should get up and boogie ! Can't wait to hear your assessment of the sound.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

loosk great bro! interested in seeing what your thoughts are on the horns


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

Man, I really don't want to cut up my car... but I NEED this in my life! haha

You did a fantastic job Matt.

btw - what compression drivers are you using?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

JayinMI said:


> Dude! You have 10's in your kicks! Holy crap! LOL
> 
> Nice job. They actually don't look too obtrusive at all. The carpet looks much better at a distance. Almost dead on.
> 
> ...


Hope he doesn't mind me jumping in here, but I believe the price is the same for everyone. $50 for the design. If you want rush service it is 7.50 extra. If you want the predicted freq response it is 7.50 extra. I've heard of a "white" status that some shops use which is like $80 extra and that basically means it goes to the top of the list. Don't quote me on that price though.

Wen you fill out the form it takes a day or two for him to respond, where he basically says whether or not what you are looking for can be done. If you agree he sends apaypal invoice and then you wait. It took about two weeks to get mine, but it depends n how many he has in his queue.

The plans come in png format. I think I got about 6 views or so plus the graph. 

Oh the freq response graph is based on your vehicle or room (he does home stuff too).


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

Fat kicks, well done! . I hope people realise how many hours are in those kicks. The pics make it look fast and easy.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

you kicks actually look much less obtrusive than many people's using far smaller drivers. Kudos to you. I hope to hear it sometime


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Looks great man!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> you kicks actually look much less obtrusive than many people's using far smaller drivers. Kudos to you. I hope to hear it sometime


Agreed. They look so compared to mine as much as it pains me to admit, lol. 

Great work, Matt. Looks awesome. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You just need to go a head and do the Scan 10s in your kicks  They are pretty ridiculous. 




bikinpunk said:


> Agreed. They look so compared to mine as much as it pains me to admit, lol.
> 
> Great work, Matt. Looks awesome.
> 
> ...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I could hardly fit the 8's in there and had to take em back out. Now way te 10's will work there. I wish, though. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Hope he doesn't mind me jumping in here, but I believe the price is the same for everyone. $50 for the design. If you want rush service it is 7.50 extra. If you want the predicted freq response it is 7.50 extra. I've heard of a "white" status that some shops use which is like $80 extra and that basically means it goes to the top of the list. Don't quote me on that price though.
> 
> Wen you fill out the form it takes a day or two for him to respond, where he basically says whether or not what you are looking for can be done. If you agree he sends apaypal invoice and then you wait. It took about two weeks to get mine, but it depends n how many he has in his queue.
> 
> ...


Cool. That sounds perfectly reasonable. I just didn't want to bug a guy who might be really busy just for a price.

Jay


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks for all the compliments guys... I really worked hard at this install to get the front stage to come together they way it is... i'm really pleased with how it looks, and so is my wife  -- always a plus when she hates the hobby. 


so, today i hit a major milestone. 

i'm scrapping the entire project and moving in a different direction. this will now be my 4th change in this car to date. Get ready for some new stuff....   















































j/k. read on. I got tunes now


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ok, all joking aside -- yes, i seem to be a little fickle on my decisions, and sometimes waffly on what I am looking for. However, I'm really happy that I stuck with the horn build, and given some more time and tuning, this should turn out to be a really nice system.

a big thank you to Mike for helping me with the box design and the first bit of initial tuning ! :thumbsup:

so yesterday, we put together a box design that would give us 3 of the 4 8's i have in a ported enclosure, tuned to about 35 hz. 

mixed with a little demoing of mikes truck, the oncoming heat, and food, we didn't get much farther than cutting all the pieces needed for the box. 

once i got home i decided to chug away and get the box built. ... i was a little hasty. 

a big thanks to my wife for the help as well... 

here is the box coming together 










copious amounts of glue was used... here is the port extending to and up the back wall of the box... about 17" long












i said a little hasty, yes? well, if you noticed in the pics above, the baffle was being recessed inside the box. this means that should have routered the holes for the subs prior to nailing it into place. jig saw wouldn't fit, router wouldn't work, and my dremel "router" bit was complete garbage. 

the next pic I'm not particularly proud, but thankfully my wife helped me think through this dilemma with what was a seemingly awful idea : "just drill a thousand holes around the ring and then hit it with a hammer" ...

while i didn't follow the idea 100%, you can see that we made some decent progress with this asinine method. ugly as butt, but it worked 










i completed this process with all three rings and the port, and then used my reciprocating saw to smooth things out a bit, and then sanded a bit to satisfy my mild ocd...










painted and out in the sun










with the three 8's mounted finally - wired at a 2.6 ohm load


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i built an amprack to attach to the back of the box, leaving enough room for ventilation










and two pics of the amps installed, and with the concertible top tray put down.. it's a tight fit



















and the subs firing through the skipass area


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i obviously have a bit of finish work to complete, but now that i got the sub box and amp rack figured out, i got an opportunity to plug it in , fire it up, and jam out  

I sat and played with the stereo tuning for a few hours, and then headed down to Mikes for his touch on the system. 

i hate giving initial thoughts, as it takes time for the initial sheer enjoyment of having something installed and finished to subside, and to really start listening critically. 

i can say that these 8's absolutely pound and get down like it's a much bigger sub. definitely an improvement over the Morel's I had. 

The 10's are going to take some work ... there are some points of resonance (interference with the cabin I think) right around where you would want to midbass to hit. Mike did a good job or toning that down, but it still needs a bit of work. Notwithstanding, the 10's sound great, and everything is up front. There is simply no replacement for displacement. The more I tune, and the speakers break in a bit, I think this will really impress me for sure. 

then the horns... not much to say about them, other than the fact that I love them. I liked them before when I had the fj, and it's nice to get back to them. 

stage depth is unreal... there is clear separation of left, right, and center, and stage width is pretty fantastic... just a bit past the pillars on either side. stage height is about halfway between the dash and the roof. 

looking at the compromises i was willing to make on an ugly dashpod to fit 4.5" midranges, and now the final result of the front stage, I think that would have been a huge mistake. upfront everything is hidden, and it sounds badass! 

I'll keep adding to this thread, as I said there is a bit of finish work to do... I need to fab up new door pockets to replace where the pods were that Jon built, and I'll build a trim piece for the trunk to tie everything together. 

i think one of the things that I am most pleased about, is now I have the ability to try virtually any mid/midbass driver I want to as long as its smaller than 10" and 5" in depth... without having to fab up anything additional. Sheer curiousity is going to get the best of me, much like it does for everyone else, but now my wife can't complain that the car is in pieces... all i have to do is switch out a baffle ring  

that's it for now... happy to answer any questions if you have any.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> a big thanks to my wife for the help as well...
> 
> here is the box coming together



That is not the Box I would be workin on if that was my wife....Kudos to you on many levels my friend.


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> That is not the Box I would be workin on if that was my wife....Kudos to you on many levels my friend.


:laugh:


----------



## MTopper (Nov 4, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> That is not the Box I would be workin on if that was my wife....Kudos to you on many levels my friend.


winning


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

thumbsup on a hottie wife!

System is ok too I guess compared to that.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I love my IS300...but it's like that V-8 commercial...you know, you could have had a V-8. I looked at BMWs for a long long time and everytime I get over not getting one, I see something dumb like this install.

I could have had a V-8....


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Wow, today, Jim Walter (Alpine engineer) said "For the guys looking for that last bit of performance .. ask me, I'll design you a box. Jim "

Just sayin'


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> thumbsup on a hottie wife!
> 
> System is ok too I guess compared to that.


I'll give a double thumbs up because she is also holding a power tool in the pic!!!


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> I'll give a double thumbs up because she is also holding a power tool in the pic!!!


well, it's better than just laying it on the floor...


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Re: "Better than laying it on the floor."


Power tool -- Yes.

Hottie Wife -- No.


LOL

Jay


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ok, ok ... enough of the wife jokes  she might read this some day


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> ok, ok ... enough of the wife jokes  she might read this some day


Ok fair enough, no more jokes, but can you at least add some more pics.










of your wife, not the car


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

minor change and 1 addition....

any guesses?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Pick me pick me!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I see what you did there


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

> Pick me pick me!


^ you can't, you already know ... now that wouldn't be a GUESS would it?


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

I spy two changes?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I see the foam in the horn & that's not a 10" Faital midbass.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Did you use a drill bit to "cut" the holes in those baffles too?  :laugh:


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

Looks like a beyma driver.


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## Z-Roc (Mar 22, 2012)

wow!! what kind amps are those?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

2wheelie said:


> Looks like a beyma driver.


looks like a discontinued Thiel 8


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> looks like a discontinued Thiel 8


ding ding ding.... i'll post up some listening impressions later today, but i can say that these have a much nice midrange than the faitals...

the other addition is meticulated foam in the horn. once again, more to come later today, but i noticed an increase in stage depth, height, and separation... as well as an increase in tonality and decrease in horn honk. overall, pretty impressed that such a simple mod made such a significant difference in those areas.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> ding ding ding.... i'll post up some listening impressions later today, but i can say that these have a much nice midrange than the faitals...
> 
> the other addition is meticulated foam in the horn. once again, more to come later today, but i noticed an increase in stage depth, height, and separation... as well as an increase in tonality and decrease in horn honk. overall, pretty impressed that such a simple mod made such a significant difference in those areas.


reticulating, not meticulating


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> reticulating, not meticulating


It was meticulously inserted, does that count?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> Did you use a drill bit to "cut" the holes in those baffles too?  :laugh:


Watch it Mikey... ive seen your router 

These were actually perfect circles... i did slice my thumb on the router bit though


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

.Matt!!!....you had your panties all twisted over a BP design, then you go with 3 ported...Is there still another new enclosure down the road....


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i still have my panties twisted... thanks though.


----------



## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i still have my panties twisted... thanks though.


That sounds very unsettling!!!!...:shocked:

:snacks:


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ it's not so bad once you get used to it...

every day more and more rattles are appearing, which is why i wanted to stay away from the ported box... i'm still contemplating on a pwk box.


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

mattyjman said:


> minor change and 1 addition....
> 
> any guesses?


okay, so Mic10is was right... in fact he recommended these to me. They are Thiel 8" woofers for home audio use... (i've attached the spec sheet)

As I may have mentioned earlier, i have a few mids here that i was wanting to try... 

After tuning the Faital Pro 10's for the last few days, I found some weird nuances in my car... specifically the frequencies at 125 - 200 have a tremendous peak.. significant eq was needed to bring this down, and it was still there when i threw in the thiels, so i know it's a car issue, not a speaker issue. 

this has caused a bit of pain in trying to get a good "midbass" kick type response... i got things set up pretty good however, and the 10's sounded really good in the midbass range. the kick is what you would imagine it to be... pretty impactful, up front, and real. however, the rest of the speaker had a bit to be desired... the midrange ability was meh... just not silky smooth. 

i popped in the thiels, and while they have decent midbass response, they certainly lacked the kick i had with the pro mids. however, where they really shined was the midrange area... the mids sounded really good and it was exactly what i was looking for. the midbass response is good, but it simply can't handle the high output capability i need. 

this is especially true with the top down. coming from work, i put the top down and started to jam out. realizing quickly, these mids just simply can't hack it. they could i suppose, if i upped the crossover point, but i don't want to do that. 

so that's it... i'm stuck. if i could mend the two speakers together i would be in heaven. 

i have the Ciare 8's that I'll be able to test out as well, but i doubt they'll have much more impact than the 8's. volume should be just fine, as they'll handle the power, but i want something to slap me across the face. we'll see...


now, the meticulating foam (did you catch that Mic?  ) ... I simply didn't think this was going to make as big of a difference as it did. I lost some output, about 3 db I would say. However, with the amp i have and the little power they need, i was simply able to up the output on my bitone to compensate. 

what did the foam do for me ? right away I was able to notice a cleaner stage, with a more defined image than before. this also reduced a bit of the harshness that you could get from the horn at loud volume levels listening to distortion guitar... some people say "honk". this reduced that a significant level. the depth of stage increased as well. overall, throwing these into the mouth of the horn made all the difference in my listening experience. everything was very smooth and refined. 

that's about it for now... now i gotta find some good 10" mid/midbass speaker to give me the blend i'm looking for. hmmmm....?? anyone out there have any suggestions for this?


----------



## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

The eminence 10's look pretty nice. Maybe give one of them a try.

Where do you find that foam?


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

solution to your problem


Keep the top up

duh!!!


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

um, yeah... why didn't i think of that... 

but seriously... any 10" recommendations from anyone?


----------



## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

2wheelie said:


> The eminence 10's look pretty nice. Maybe give one of them a try.
> 
> Where do you find that foam?


jason has referenced the delta lite II ... looks interesting, so i may try that out? 

the foam... i don't recall... i bought it about 2years ago...


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

The Thiel sounds good (as per your post) but is way too inefficient for your project... @ 86dB 1w/1m 
Looking at the FS, I could tell it was not efficient enough compared to other PA 8" woofers... 

Regarding your 10" search, I do like my 18Sound 6" midrange more than the ID X65 it replaces. Why not try something from 18Sound?  
Else, you could try to look at Acoustic Elegance since they have all those goodies in the motor and low inductance to top it off... Believe I've read a few times that inductance distortion really is nasty for high-fidelity reproduction. 
Not sure about the depth though, I think they are closer to 6". Might try to contact John to make sure or ask if he could custom you one pair  

Kelvin


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Hey there, been watching your thread from across the pond here, very inspiring work indeed!

I've recently used fibreglass in my own install for the first time in my E34 build. A tip someone gave me when resin isn't going off very well, is to use a heat gun very quickly to raise the temp and get the catalyst really working. Obviously its a mthod to use with care, and could depend on the climate there (i have no idea how hot/humid things get). Just a thought. Keep up the good work!

Gav


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

The Audax 6.5" mid gets high praise, but I don't know if the 10" follows suit.

Audax PR240M0 Professional 10" Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store

Only 4mm of Xmax, but where are you high-passing these at? It also has a large 11" flange.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm high passing at 80hz... would like to be able to do 70 so i have some flexibility...


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

mattyjman said:


> minor change and 1 addition....
> 
> any guesses?


Impressive. These make my kicks look like wailing infants. 

I would concur with the Acoustic Elegance suggestion, esp if they are IB. John really knows how to make a good clean driver with one hell of a motor. But they also have a really low qts...

Just saying, a custom made AE 10" would be, well, bad ass.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

millerlyte said:


> Impressive. These make my kicks look like wailing infants.


_That_ is sig quote worthy right there...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

BMS doesn't make 10s


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

reticulating foam can be bought at most pond and pet stores that sell fish tank supplies.
Its use alot for Pond filters and the like.


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> reticulating foam can be bought at post pond and pet stores that sell fish tank supplies.
> Its use alot for Pond filters and the like.


Awesome, thanks!


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

If you ever come across an older focal or 10K driver, it has black damping paint on the front and yellow kevlar on the back of the driver. its a 10 inch, If the price isn't to bad, defiantly worth the try. I used them in a pair of Open Baffles with the focal TC120TX for Home use, One of the better sounding setup's I've had, The realism and dynamics where frightening.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

xxx_busa said:


> If you ever come across an older focal or 10K driver, it has black damping paint on the front and yellow kevlar on the back of the driver. its a 10 inch, If the price isn't to bad, defiantly worth the try. I used them in a pair of Open Baffles with the focal TC120TX for Home use, One of the better sounding setup's I've had, The realism and dynamics where frightening.


model number?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> The Thiel sounds good (as per your post) but is way too inefficient for your project... @ 86dB 1w/1m
> Looking at the FS, I could tell it was not efficient enough compared to other PA 8" woofers...
> 
> Regarding your 10" search, I do like my 18Sound 6" midrange more than the ID X65 it replaces. Why not try something from 18Sound?
> ...



this is an interesting thought... do you know what the cost is for something like that...


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> The Thiel sounds good (as per your post) but is way too inefficient for your project... @ 86dB 1w/1m
> Looking at the FS, I could tell it was not efficient enough compared to other PA 8" woofers...
> 
> Regarding your 10" search, I do like my 18Sound 6" midrange more than the ID X65 it replaces. Why not try something from 18Sound?
> ...


He'll have a new car and be on the 10th install by the time John finishes them! :laugh:


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> BMS doesn't make 10s


I know... I was looking at their website in order to suggest for one but... 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> this is an interesting thought... do you know what the cost is for something like that...


Nope... Sorry 
You'll have to contact John for that. 

As _2wheelie_ stated, might take a while too to get your custom AE (6 months at least...) 

Kelvin


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Found them 10K617 focal




mattyjman said:


> model number?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

the more i'm thinking about this, the more i'm coming with the understanding that if i want a good midrange, i'll have to consider the size... more 8's are probably going to sound better in the midrange than 10's ... 

looking at the beyma 8g40 .. how well do you think something like this will play down to 80hz...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

JBL 2123h


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

The TD10 is a tad deeper than you want... 
Acoustic Elegance • View topic - Dual TD12S for center speaker 
Acoustic Elegance • View topic - ** Official TD Woofer Group Buy Information ** 
Acoustic Elegance • View topic - ** Official TD Woofer Group Buy Information ** 

Might be a stupid suggestion but if John could shave off 1 magnet slug (which would decrease motor force) - you would have the depth you need. 
Playing with WinISD, decreasing motor force only lowers the Re (ohm) which is good for car audio for more power available from your amp and increase the USPL specs (don't know what that is though...) 

Kelvin


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> JBL 2123h


That was gonna be my recommendation, if you can find them.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

E110s can be reconed to 2123s...but JBL recone kits are HIGH.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> JBL 2123h


2.5mm xmax... wouldn't that a be a little small?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

How high up do you need the midbass drivers to play?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Why not just find some 2118's?


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

trojan fan said:


> How high up do you need the midbass drivers to play?


i would like them to be able to play cleanly from 80 to 1200 hz... 1500 would be a bonus...


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

BigRed said:


> Why not just find some 2118's?


what he said


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

Eminence legend bp102-4 decent efficiency,ok Xmas,fairly shallow,85.00 each ,power handling is a ill low,but if your not using high power it will be ok,oh and they are 4ohm?92db,6.2mm,looks like they will play low enough.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

well, today has been a success  i think... still have to wait for the initial "enjoyment" factor to subside... 

but... 









Ciare NDC8-3 - Ciare NDC8-3 is a 600 watt 8 inch lightweight neodymium speaker for all bass and mid-bass speaker systems- Ciare Speakers - Ciare NDC8-3 8 inch lighweight neodymium speaker for bass guitar, PA speaker systems, etc. Ciare NDC8-3 8 inch 

lower midbass response is on par with the faitals... and it seems like the midrange response is very close in quality with the Thiels... i'm actually quite impressed. 

now how could a 8" have as much impact as a 10"... ? i think a bit higher qts on the ciare helped with minimizing a steep rolloff with the faitals .2 qts... higher xmax as well. 

as it sits right now, i'm really quite happy with the sound... i've spent some more time with t/a... and i think i've done it right this time. i zeroed out all previous t/a, and started with the left side, and delayed the mids until the stage was brought up... repeated on the right side... this brought the stage up pretty decently. 

then i dropped the crossover on the horns down to 800hz, and leveled left and right. same thing with the mids, brought the crossover up to 4000khz or so, and leveled left and right. 

after this was completed... holy cow. i honestly haven't ever heard a horn car stage this well... and doing the t/a has somehow really widened the stage up...  so far, the best iteration on install in this car...


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

in case anyone was wondering...

1250hz and up, 24db/oct - horns
70hz - 1200hz 24db/oct - mids
70 down to 25hz 24db/oct - subs


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

I am glad you finally are getting it to where you are happy with it. You really have put quite an effort into this project. I would imagine that you are going to get quite a lot of volume out of that set up, which is a good think in a convertible. I bet you wish that you had tried this early on??? I admire your persistance.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

AudioBob said:


> I am glad you finally are getting it to where you are happy with it. You really have put quite an effort into this project. I would imagine that you are going to get quite a lot of volume out of that set up, which is a good think in a convertible. I bet you wish that you had tried this early on??? I admire your persistance.


it get's hella loud... having the top down requires me to have a different tune... the challenge is doing that without pissing off the neighbors 

as far as trying this earlier... in my FJ, I had a stellar horn setup. I should have simply remembered what that was like, and it would have saved me a ton of time ..


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

Glad to hear ,your getting it straightened out,nice drivers!Figure out the subs yet?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Thumbs up!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Glad you didn't sell those Ciares?

I was so tempted to buy them.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Glad you didn't sell those Ciares?
> 
> I was so tempted to buy them.


very.... that would have been a huge mistake. i'm actually surprised that they have turned out to do so well in a midrange/midbass set up


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

small update: 

still loving the ciare's    ... they are balls out, just absolutely slamming. i'm loving it still, and that's a milestone for me. 

that is all.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

I guess the next logical move has to be this then...  

Kelvin


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> I guess the next logical move has to be this then...
> 
> Kelvin


you, my friend, are a bad influence


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Do me a favor first if you feel up for an experiment...try them 8s bandpassed.

But you will probably give up some bottom end.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Do me a favor first if you feel up for an experiment...try them 8s bandpassed.
> 
> But you will probably give up some bottom end.


which 8's? the type r's? 

i refuse to mod the kicks if that's what you had in mind... you know these drivers are like 5" deep, right?

not to mention that they are not just midbass... how does a bandpassed midrange sound?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> you, my friend, are a bad influence


I know  but if you're happy with the 8" ; just imagine the grin on your face when the 10" slams your face  

Kelvin


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> which 8's? the type r's?
> 
> i refuse to mod the kicks if that's what you had in mind... you know these drivers are like 5" deep, right?
> 
> not to mention that they are not just midbass... how does a bandpassed midrange sound?


I think he's talking about the Alpine's


You need to try out the 10's that woofery left the link for


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No, I was talking about the Ciares.

Unity horns have bandpassed midranges...they are pretty badassed.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> No, I was talking about the Ciares.
> 
> Unity horns have bandpassed midranges...they are pretty badassed.


i wouldn't know where the first place to get started would be... and i guarantee i do not have the space for it...


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

honestly, if there is anything i would need to change, it would be the subs... i need more. the problem is there simply isn't any room. i think i may be contacting pwk soon to do a box... unless anyone else has a better suggestion.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You wouldn't change anything...think of it as a grill of sorts. That is if I can get good results.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I can get 110 dB in the midrange, but it's down to 96 at 100 hertz...and that's with a 1" thick front.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> I can get 110 dB in the midrange, but it's down to 96 at 100 hertz...and that's with a 1" thick front.


ok, now you have my interest peaked.... 

however, i'd lose what i love most about those ciares... the midbass slam. 

pm me some details and we can figure out what this looks like.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

I think i found out something odd... and it's probably why i have a massive peak at 160-200 hz... 

the frame that i thought i was venting into with the kicks... well, it appears to vent to the very same frame that the factory midbass used. In the 3 series bmw's the midbass are underseat, but they vent them through the frame rails... apparently right where i made the cuts. 

so, it appears that i have made a really crafty passive radiator system... with a massive port between the two. 

so, my options are to take out the underseat speakers and seal that channel, making this a big box, or build new kicks (or modify the existing ones) and build a vented alignment. 

i looked into the 10" replacements for the Ciare mids I have, which would be the ndk10-3 .. however AL at US Speaker said it would be a few months before they got any in. After modeling the 8" in winisd, it looks like I can pick up a pretty impressive bottom end with a vented alignment, tuned to 60 hz or so in a .5 cub box. this should require a 3" port at 5" or so... not too bad. and if these are impressive as they are ib, they should absolutely slam in a vented alignment. 

theoretically I should be able to solve the massive peak as well. 

so, here are a few questions... 

--if you review the pictures of the kick cuts... the inside of the kick area would be tough to seal off with anything other than copius amounts of dynamat. considering that there are only a few holes, would this be sufficient in creating a ported box. would i lose anything by proceeding like this? 

-- if i do have to rebuild kicks, is it worth discussing a bandpass alignment like Jason was suggesting. Can I get bandwidth from 60 to 1250 with something like this? 

any thoughts, I'm open to suggestions.


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

Old school installers would " fine tune" their ported boxes with a tone generator and an Rta ,you could do something along those line,you would want to use a decent size port that you could interchange the length on,change the lengths until you found something that worked.i used to use perfect box by Rockford,that usually got me in the ballpark.good luck.i too am looking at doing tens for midbass,but not that high dollar stuff, been looking at the eminence bp legend pro 4ohm,92db,6.2mm Xmax and they work in sealed


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## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

subscribed


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## CLK63DK (Nov 20, 2010)

3 weeks silence?! 

Did you run out of inspiration or ideas?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i am sure Matt is just too busy enjoying his car


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

simplicityinsound said:


> i am sure Matt is just too busy enjoying his car



Are you talking about the new one he just bought?....LOL....J/K...


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