# Just got car out of car stero shop...not even in Stereo....



## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SO, I have an Acura TSX. I wanted to keep the head unit, so I could keep steering wheel controls, Bluetooth, etc...

So the shop said to install a CleanSweep, etc, and it would be ok. 

So I bought some Jl-Audio Components for the front, some for the rear speakers, a Kenwood Xr900-5 5 channel amp, and the cleansweep. Took it in, and they installed it....

Sounded horrible....But figure I could get home and dial it in. 

Well, on the way home, noticed noise coming out of the speakers. When the stereo wasn't on or off....Then noticed, it wasn't in stereo, everything was mono. (Tested using a song where I know the guitar pans to one side)...

SO, started doing some research, and on the TSX forums, they say to create a harness off the head unit that converts into RCA's. Not to use Clean Sweep's etc....

I have no clue where to go with this, but it sounds horrible. Obviously going back to get them to fix it not being in stereo...Guy was kinda a prick. Always bringing up whenever I say anything "I've been doing this for 40 years as a living"....Tomorrow I am going to be tempted to say, "Yea, and you sure as hell made my stereo sound real dam good"...

So frustrated, and as I read more and more, just seems like a can of worms. I just want it to be slightly louder than it was, and sound a little bit louder and fuller. Not going for overkill.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I see you're from Asheville- What shop did you go to ?


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Acuras are difficult. Have him call another shop, say out of state so there's no competition, to learn how to do this type of installation properly.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

Ya, 40 years of unhappy customers.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

captainobvious said:


> I see you're from Asheville- What shop did you go to ?


Garner Stereo. Not happy at all obviously. When I originally went in and spec'd out a system, he quoted me like 1680 bucks. But that did not include the 2nd part of the cleansweep. So, I went online and bought everything myself, and of course, he says, well you have to have the 2nd part of the cleansweep to make it sound good. Oh, great, thanks guy, you didn't quote that in the original quote. 

So I just have the summing part of the cleansweep, which, doesn't really need to be used since there is a full range signal going to the rear doors?? I am learning, lol....

Plus learning the cleansweep isn't really what I would want. I would prefer something with some EQ controls, and some control. So I am scouring over forums to figure out what I need. 

But yea, not being in stereo makes it sound horrible...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

shops dont like when you go to them to see what they would recommend, then buy it online to have them install. thats kinda like a big "eF you"


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> shops dont like when you go to them to see what they would recommend, then buy it online to have them install. thats kinda like a big "eF you"


So true, and they will often not do the install. Why install products they can't warranty? Some shops will do the install but at an inflated rate because they didn't make money in the sale. This is a battle consumers and retailers will continue to have as long as a consumer feels like they are saving money in the end. What many people fail to realize is that when presented with an online price, a lot of retailers will come close to that price just to make the sale. At the end of the month, every dollar in profit helps them stay open.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> So true, and they will often not do the install. Why install products they can't warranty? Some shops will do the install but at an inflated rate because they didn't make money in the sale. This is a battle consumers and retailers will continue to have as long as a consumer feels like they are saving money in the end. What many people fail to realize is that when presented with an online price, a lot of retailers will come close to that price just to make the sale. At the end of the month, every dollar in profit helps them stay open.


and i was going light when i said that to lol. i cant explain how pissed my boss got when people tried doing that to him. as a matter of fact he told them just to leave. in the end, it is pretty wrong on the "customers" part because theyre wasting the shops time. i cant even explain how pissed i get when people text me off craigslist just to pretend to want what i have but really theyre just looking for an opinion or something like that. drives me absolutely insane


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> and i was going light when i said that to lol. i cant explain how pissed my boss got when people tried doing that to him. as a matter of fact he told them just to leave. in the end, it is pretty wrong on the "customers" part because theyre wasting the shops time. i cant even explain how pissed i get when people text me off craigslist just to pretend to want what i have but really theyre just looking for an opinion or something like that. drives me absolutely insane


Well, I called them, and if they didn't want to do the install fine. I work in sales, real estate, and wasting time is part of sales. I talk to people all day long, and it never turns into anything. But my goal in sales is to help people, which I believe will eventually turn into sales at some point. But if I view someone as wasting time, and I am not really trying to help someone, then well, its pretty greedy. 

I paid $350 for just install, and $150 in parts.....Sorry if an extra $400 in markup on equipment profit in addition to the $350 for install and prob $100 in markup in the parts isn't enough.....That is $850 profit and I am sure they are paying the guy that installed by system $20 bucks an hour...

It sounds like crap, and is wired in mono.....so, not to start a flaming war, but seems everyone is siding with the shop because I bought the amps, etc online. Its a new age. They could have said no, we will not install it. Fine, I can find someone else. His recommendations were crap and stock anyways. He didn't ask me what I wanted.....If he asked a few questions, he would have realized a cleansweep isn't what I want/need. I am a musician, and I like knobs and control. Nope, he just wanted to sell the fastest system, and then when I come back, "Oh, you really need a sub, ohh, you need the second part of the cleansweep"..... The guy in my opinion is a sleezeball salesperson who only cares about one thing....volume....I know a ratty salesperson when I see one. I should have known..... 

Its my own fault. I should have done more research on this before going into it. I trusted them to help guide me....they failed. Couldn't even hook it up right...sounds horrible. A mono stereo with a ridiculous amount of hiss....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

only 350 for an install? damn that is cheap. and sometimes, some systems have to be wired in mono when doing factory integration without buying and using more products..


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> shops dont like when you go to them to see what they would recommend, then buy it online to have them install. thats kinda like a big "eF you"


Well, don't charge so much markup then. And, well, there recommendations were crap anyways. Wow, an amp, 4 speakers and a processor with no control I would have hated. Wow, really high end sound advice worth a lot of money...come on man.....


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2009)

I want to make it very clear, in no way am I supporting the shop if they have mos hadled the install. I was just stating how/why some retailers act the way they do. 
As you can imagine, we too spend lots of time fielding emails, calls, PMs etc that do not result in a sale. It is a part of operating a sales based business. Every retailer should know that. 
I don't fault you for looking for the least expensive way to purchase your equipment. We all try to maximize our out going $.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> only 350 for an install? damn that is cheap. and sometimes, some systems have to be wired in mono when doing factory integration without buying and using more products..


Yea...well, they need to let me know its going to be in mono, and we could have dealt with it. This is the system he recommended......A mono system is totally unacceptable to me. I would think somewhere along the lines someone would have said "oh, we have to wire it in mono", because I would have said, "Um, stop.....that needs to be resolved".


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> Well, don't charge so much markup then. And, well, there recommendations were crap anyways. Wow, an amp, 4 speakers and a processor with no control I would have hated. Wow, really high end sound advice worth a lot of money...come on man.....


first off, the cleansweep is far from a processor. its a factory integration device. and most shops have to charge that markup to make money or else they wouldnt be in business. plus your also getting the "in person customer support" when something goes wrong. no offense and not trying to be a dick, but what kind of system/install did you expect for paying 350 for the install. at the shop i work(ed) at that 350 will just hardly get you a head unit install. but then again thats manhattan prices. but when time is money and you didnt want to buy the second part of the cleansweep (which very well may have been the part that could have integrated it all to make it stereo, idk im not to familiar with the product, but i will look into it) 350 would have to be an extremely fast in and out job for them to make maybe a couple bucks factoring in everything.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> first off, the cleansweep is far from a processor. its a factory integration device. and most shops have to charge that markup to make money or else they wouldnt be in business. plus your also getting the "in person customer support" when something goes wrong. no offense and not trying to be a dick, but what kind of system/install did you expect for paying 350 for the install. at the shop i work(ed) at that 350 will just hardly get you a head unit install. but then again thats manhattan prices. but when time is money and you didnt want to buy the second part of the cleansweep (which very well may have been the part that could have integrated it all to make it stereo, idk im not to familiar with the product, but i will look into it) 350 would have to be an extremely fast in and out job for them to make maybe a couple bucks factoring in everything.


I have the original quote, and the 2nd part of the cleansweep wasn't included. That's fine....maybe he was trying to get me into the system, then upgrade me. But when I showed up with the parts he suggested, and then he says, oh, you need this...well, I didn't need it when you were quoting the system.

He named the price, not me. He charged $350 for amp install and four speakers. Yea, not Manhatten here. I think its fair, but jeez, at least run it in stereo....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> I have the original quote, and the 2nd part of the cleansweep wasn't included. That's fine....maybe he was trying to get me into the system, then upgrade me. But when I showed up with the parts he suggested, and then he says, oh, you need this...well, I didn't need it when you were quoting the system.
> 
> He named the price, not me. He charged $350 for amp install and four speakers. Yea, not Manhatten here. I think its fair, but jeez, at least run it in stereo....


there were two times i can remember since i started working there where the customer wanted an oem integration and didnt want to buy everything we recommended and had to run it in mono. one in an older womans older bmw 3 series, and i cant remember what the other vehicle was


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## PsyCLown (May 17, 2013)

I think the issue was the fact that there was a serious lack of communication between the shop and the customer.

Generally speaking a sound system would be in stereo, it comes standard in stereo.
The initial quote stated certain things afterwards when the client is not happy, for what is IMO valid reasons, extra items need to be purchased.

There was no communication from the shop stating that if this and this is installed without this then this will be the result type thing.

I understand that shops have to have higher mark up than online stores as they pay rent and have more staff, they often need to keep the products in stock and while sitting with the stock the prices may go up or down - if the prices go down then they are losing a bit of their profit.

Unfortunately us customers want the best price and deal we can get and why should we not get that? Why should we have to spend x amount more when you can get the exact same thing elsewhere for less? That just seems a bit silly.

Personally the issues you are experiencing is the reason I would much rather do it all myself, spend some time researching how to do it and how it should be done and take the time to do it myself. I save money, I learn how in the process and I have yet to walk away disappointed. Unfortunately not everyone has as much confidence in themselves to do such things and not everyone has the time either.

40 years means jack, perhaps he himself is great at installing systems chances are he did not install it himself. Although what about his customer relations? That seems to be lacking a due to the lack of communication.


EDIT: As others have stated that when in sales, unfortunately not everyone who walks into your shop is going to purchase something and the customer is by no means forced to do so either. People want the best deal and they want to be happy with the people they are dealing with. I like to try research what I purchase rather extensively before I purchase it, compare it to various other products as well as the pricing. Unfortunately not all the websites have the details required in which to do so, I am then forced to give the people a call / send them a mail / goto their shop and inquire.

That is all I am doing. A sale is not a sale until money has exchanged hands. It is simply an inquiry.

You looking at a car to purchase, lets say its between some Merc and a BMW. You will want to test drive them both to see which you prefer. One person would have ended up having "wasted" their time with you, allowing you to test drive their car and show it to you.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

PsyCLown said:


> I think the issue was the fact that there was a serious lack of communication between the shop and the customer.
> 
> Generally speaking a sound system would be in stereo, it comes standard in stereo.
> The initial quote stated certain things afterwards when the client is not happy, for what is IMO valid reasons, extra items need to be purchased.
> ...


Yep. I am learning. Finding out that you can just came off the head-unit and can be turned into RCA outputs, however, they are balanced, and you need an amp that will take balanced inputs. I am sure the amp he suggested does not....Plus, I am sure they aren't gonna splice into the wires and create RCA's from that.....That would be too much work, but actually, I would have gladly paid for a cleaner system, vs the way he suggested it. His approach is a cookie cutter approach probably meant for people who just want "bass". 

You are right...I should have just researched my own, learned, and then hired someone and have them do it. Let me engineer the system through the forums, etc, and have someone else do it. 

At least its not all wasted. The amp is installed etc. I may just need to get an EQ or something that will take balanced and can covert to unbalanced. I am sure this is why I have a ton of noise...Ive blown a lot more money in a lot less time....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> Yep. I am learning. Finding out that you can just came off the head-unit and can be turned into RCA outputs, however, they are balanced, and you need an amp that will take balanced inputs. I am sure the amp he suggested does not....Plus, I am sure they aren't gonna splice into the wires and create RCA's from that.....That would be too much work, but actually, I would have gladly paid for a cleaner system, vs the way he suggested it. His approach is a cookie cutter approach probably meant for people who just want "bass".
> 
> You are right...I should have just researched my own, learned, and then hired someone and have them do it. Let me engineer the system through the forums, etc, and have someone else do it.
> 
> At least its not all wasted. The amp is installed etc. I may just need to get an EQ or something that will take balanced and can covert to unbalanced. I am sure this is why I have a ton of noise...Ive blown a lot more money in a lot less time....


maybe you didnt explain that you arent a typical customer that just wants "boom tisk". did you guys go over that?


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## PsyCLown (May 17, 2013)

moneyfornothing said:


> Yep. I am learning. Finding out that you can just came off the head-unit and can be turned into RCA outputs, however, they are balanced, and you need an amp that will take balanced inputs. I am sure the amp he suggested does not....Plus, I am sure they aren't gonna splice into the wires and create RCA's from that.....That would be too much work, but actually, I would have gladly paid for a cleaner system, vs the way he suggested it. His approach is a cookie cutter approach probably meant for people who just want "bass".
> 
> You are right...I should have just researched my own, learned, and then hired someone and have them do it. Let me engineer the system through the forums, etc, and have someone else do it.
> 
> At least its not all wasted. The amp is installed etc. I may just need to get an EQ or something that will take balanced and can covert to unbalanced. I am sure this is why I have a ton of noise...Ive blown a lot more money in a lot less time....


Yes, sound is something which everyone has a different opinion on with regards to how it should sound. lol
Everybody has different taste and it would be more ideal to try and find someone who is more or less similar to you in terms of what is preferred.

I would suggest research what you want, try get some opinions on the forum and if you would prefer someone else to do the install for you maybe see if there isn't someone on the forum who is close to you who can either assist you with the install or do it for you.

One thing I have learnt is that the majority of people couldn't care all that much about sound and the quality of it. Chances are your current system would be sufficient for most people. How many people out there run stock systems and are happy with them?
The car audio shops need to cater for the masses as well, if the area you stay in is anything similar to here in South Africa most people just want boomy bass and volume. Such cars are often referred to as pavement pounders. As long as the person is happy with their sound, that is all which should matter though.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> maybe you didnt explain that you arent a typical customer that just wants "boom tisk". did you guys go over that?


I thought we did....I told him I didn't even care, didn't even add a sub. 

Ill take it back and get them to do what they can to clean up the noise, and at least make sure it is in stereo. Then I am going to look into wiring from the HU directly to the amp, and avoiding LOC's. Just need to find a harness to fit the TSX, and then have someone create the RCA's, and then run them to the amp. From there, I can add a processor if I want, but going to go without it for a while. Just want the signal clean. I believe the shop pulled the signal after the factory amp...and then converted it with the CleanSweep summing device, into the amp. Just doesn't sound good at all.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> I thought we did....*I told him I didn't even care*, didn't even add a sub.
> 
> Ill take it back and get them to do what they can to clean up the noise, and at least make sure it is in stereo. Then I am going to look into wiring from the HU directly to the amp, and avoiding LOC's. Just need to find a harness to fit the TSX, and then have someone create the RCA's, and then run them to the amp. From there, I can add a processor if I want, but going to go without it for a while. Just want the signal clean. I believe the shop pulled the signal after the factory amp...and then converted it with the CleanSweep summing device, into the amp. Just doesn't sound good at all.


caugh caugh... 

and thats exactly what they did. what other reasonable way would they pull signal? and you dont necessarily turn the stock speaker wires into rca's.. you use them as high level inputs on the amp


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## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I want to make it very clear, in no way am I supporting the shop if they have mos hadled the install. I was just stating how/why some retailers act the way they do.
> As you can imagine, we too spend lots of time fielding emails, calls, PMs etc that do not result in a sale. It is a part of operating a sales based business. Every retailer should know that.
> I don't fault you for looking for the least expensive way to purchase your equipment. We all try to maximize our out going $.


Did anyone take recognition of this brilliant post? This man deserves a medal for crying out loud! This is the first time I have seen a retailer actually understand that the consumer sometimes has the want to cut corners and save money! You sir, have blown me away. If I were still in the States, I would go out of my way to find you and your company to buy product even if it means you shipping it to my door out-of-state. 

There needs to be more people in the world like you. I urge you to find me on Facebook. I may have some people in your area that I would absolutely love to send your way to do business with you. My name is Brandon Black from Washington State (currently in Whakatane, New Zealand).


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> caugh caugh...
> 
> and thats exactly what they did. what other reasonable way would they pull signal? and you dont necessarily turn the stock speaker wires into rca's.. you use them as high level inputs on the amp


There is a way to come out of the HU and tap into the same wires that are feeding the stock AMP. You can tap into those wires, and convert into balanced RCA's. 

Factory Amplifier bypass? - Acura TSX Forum 

This isn't easy, and of course, no shop is going to do this. They want the easiest/softest most profitable way. However, I am a firm believer that this method will get rid of all the noise I have. I have an insane amount of noise when the stereo is off. Sorry, not acceptable to me.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Just my opinion here, but reading thru this it sounds like the OP is a prick, which is not going to help in any in this situation to get it resolved. You can't go into a shop with no knowledge other than what you read in a acura forum and expect them to do whatever you say.

It also sounds like the shop did exactly what the they contracted to do...install some gear that this guy bought online and asked them to install. he showed the shop that he was never going to buy anything from them...so hence they put no extra effort into making it sound good. They just connected stuff.

where to go from here? i think its time to swallow your pride and find another shop who works with higher end systems and let them listen to the car and give you some advise...don't tell them you know anything about anything...just that you want their advice and are willing to pay them to fix it. Then you can decide if you want to spend the money or not.


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## peenemunde (Aug 31, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> It also sounds like the shop did exactly what the they contracted to do...install some gear that this guy bought online and asked them to install. he showed the shop that he was never going to buy anything from them...so hence they put no extra effort into making it sound good. They just connected stuff.
> 
> where to go from here? i think its time to swallow your pride and find another shop who works with higher end systems and let them listen to the car and give you some advise...don't tell them you know anything about anything...just that you want their advice and are willing to pay them to fix it. Then you can decide if you want to spend the money or not.


This is a good suggestion. Bring it to someone reputable, who you haven't already offended  Tell them the situation and listen to what they suggest. If it sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about, try the next shop. Someone is bound to want to help resolve your issue. Remember, STIMULATE YOUR LOCAL ECONOMY!! Saving $50 here and $25 there is nice, but when you look around and find ZERO high end audio shops in town and BEST BUY becomes your "go-too," you'll be the one with a frown instead of a smile


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> Just my opinion here, but reading thru this it sounds like the OP is a prick, which is not going to help in any in this situation to get it resolved. You can't go into a shop with no knowledge other than what you read in a acura forum and expect them to do whatever you say.
> 
> It also sounds like the shop did exactly what the they contracted to do...install some gear that this guy bought online and asked them to install. he showed the shop that he was never going to buy anything from them...so hence they put no extra effort into making it sound good. They just connected stuff.
> 
> where to go from here? i think its time to swallow your pride and find another shop who works with higher end systems and let them listen to the car and give you some advise...don't tell them you know anything about anything...just that you want their advice and are willing to pay them to fix it. Then you can decide if you want to spend the money or not.


I don't plan on going in there demanding anything, other than please try and clear up the noise and wire the system in STEREO. How would you feel if you stereo was wired in frigin mono? Little upset....plus, now I have to arrange another dropoff and pickup which was a PITA to begin with. So if I sound like a prick, there you go. 

I bought the exact stuff they said I needed. Its not like I just picked out some crap. He suggested it. 

I know what the system needs. Few hours of research....I need to get the signal from the HU before it gets to the crappy stock amplifier. It isn't rocket science, but I already talked to another guy, and guess what, he just wants to install LOC's. Sure, that will work, but brings up the risk for noise. 

If someone isn't willing to listen to what I just spent 4 hours researching, and understand the best signal is from the HU, not from the speaker wires after the crappy stock amp, then they are just like every other hack out there just installing crappy systems. Call me a prick, but a ton of noise and a mono system is frigin annoying. Give me the factory back rather than this. 

I come from an IT background, where online research basically taught me everything I know..so my Acura forum guys know way more than this idiot ever even suggested. But no, lets let them make the decisions, and when it sounds like crap, I am the prick....lol....gfy. I bought everything he said to buy....


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

Well we dont have the complete picture but I understand how the OP feels. Probably there was a big lack of comunication and engagement. I think is not the OP fault simply because the people in charge of the shop are the experts, they should be able to extract the customer needs, convince him about the solution they are offering, etc. It doesnt matter if its the complete system or only an install.

If the shop use as an excuse that he wont buy anything else so they dont need to do a good job in the install, they should be out of bussiness. Any job needs to be done the correct way, if you aren't willing to go that way then is better to say no to the customer, and save him this kind of troubles. Is terrible how people do commitments when they know they can't achieve the results the customer is looking, in every aspect: time, quality, cost, etc...

try to relax @moneyfornothing, at least only cost you 350 dlls (money is money, but it could be worse) in fact maybe is less than 350 because you can reuse wires and stuff..try to get the better job the shop can do without paying them more, and if they can't fix it, go with an another shop with more reputation, do more research about the shops now, instead of the car. If you manage to get a good shop in the area, they will know what to do.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

caraudioworld said:


> Well we dont have the complete picture but I understand how the OP feels. Probably there was a big lack of comunication and engagement. I think is not the OP fault simply because the people in charge of the shop are the experts, they should be able to extract the customer needs, convince him about the solution they are offering, etc. It doesnt matter if its the complete system or only an install.
> 
> If the shop use as an excuse that he wont buy anything else so they dont need to do a good job in the install, they should be out of bussiness. Any job needs to be done the correct way, if you aren't willing to go that way then is better to say no to the customer, and save him this kind of troubles. Is terrible how people do commitments when they know they can't achieve the results the customer is looking, in every aspect: time, quality, cost, etc...
> 
> ...


Thanks. Glad someone can see my side. I don't even think I am going back. Too much of a hassle to drop it off etc. I did just score a custom harness that connects to the HU and provides balanced RCA. This is a huge score.

Yes, the 350 isnt wasted. The speakers are installed and amp and the wiring etc. So its not that bad. Once I get the harness, I can just run it to the amp or a processor to the amp and home free.


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## bigscarymonster (Mar 29, 2012)

Just run your speaker wires to a processor or use locs, which don't have to be after the amp. The first one will sound better, the second one is cheaper and takes less time. It's your pick. The shop probably recommended a clean sweep because they're reasonably cheap and only take a little bit of time to install. Understand now that if you get a processor it's going to take hours to fully tune but its pretty much your only way to get awesome sound with your stock head unit.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Asking people to spend their time to help you like we all do here on diyma is fine. Asking a guy to run a business and help you for free is not. But they should get over it and do the best they can. They should add a line to their quote to address this situation and explain the price is reduced for purchasing all equipment in store to be installed.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Also, do you know where they grabbed signal?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> where to go from here? i think its time to swallow your pride and find another shop who works with higher end systems and let them listen to the car and give you some advise...don't tell them you know anything about anything...just that you want their advice and are willing to pay them to fix it. Then you can decide if you want to spend the money or not.


THIS^^^^
Go in humble, explain you need help fixing something, make no mention of who installed it(audio shops are tight knit) and go from there.

I wouldn't expect you to work for 2% commission rather than 6% and give me 100% of your time and effort, why would you expect the same?


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> Also, do you know where they grabbed signal?
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


Pretty sure (90 percent lol) they grabbed it from the speaker wires which is after the stock amp.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Not sure if any shop will intentionally wire it wrong in this day and age where it'll hit online a few minutes after the work is done or even while it's being installed lol. Sometimes it's just miswired (a bad install but maybe unintentional).

I need one/two of you enthusiast/expert guys nearby the OP to meet him outside a coffee shop. Bring along your test discs that plays/speaks/identifies the left channel, right channel, in-phase and out-of-phase. If the sound is mono or like in the center perhaps it's diffused or out-of-phase(?)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> Pretty sure (90 percent lol) they grabbed it from the speaker wires which is after the stock amp.


*facepalm* 

your pissed that there is a noise problem because you THINK they grabbed signal from after the amp.. wow. also who told you that this isnt the best place to grab a signal? your friends on the acrua forum? how the hell would they know where to grab clean signal? (also it doesnt matter if you grab before or after, you just gotta determine if its low voltage or high voltage).. go check out the "stupidest thing anyone has said to you" thread.. you will most likely see some quotes from them :laugh:

minisq is right. you went in there and had them write you up a list, went behind their backs to get it cheaper, went back to them to get it installed (for 350 dollars no less), have absolutely no idea how or what they did (besides that its run in mono), and are here bitching about how they did their job wrong? get the **** outa here


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

:inout::lurk:


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Im super surprised the shop put any of the stuff in the car. Around here unless you purchased from them or have history with the shop, they dont touch any equipment. They certainly wont touch it when you use them to spec out the equipment and then go online and buy it. 

Sorry it sounds bad, but go back nicely and say it just doesnt sound right. Most good shops will work with you to get in sounding correctly unless it was just a bad shop to begin with. 

On the flip side, I have certainly been in shops that were telling me things that I knew werent right. Just my basic search online and through forums told me what the installer or what the salesman was saying didnt add up. In those cases, I just moved on and found someone I was on the same page with.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

My shop never would either. It's not worth it. Those customers are always a PITA. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

How is it the OP's fault that they only charged him $350? Bottom line is that the shop shouldn't have let the car leave with a bunch of hiss and sounding terrible. I had a bunch of issues when the shop I went to a couple of weeks ago tried hooking up hi level inputs into a 3sixty.3 and they couldn't figure it out. I took it back, told them it sounds like garbage, then I told them just to add an LOC and go balanced into the 3sixty.3, which they did (at no extra charge) and everything sounds great now. Now I'll continue to go back to them.


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## iamstubb (Sep 6, 2013)

And that is why sounds shops can't stay in business.


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## Avalanche (Jun 13, 2006)

This sounds like a mess. Go back to the shop and describe the issues. The system at a minimum should be wired stereo, and that needs to be verified. From there, decide what needs to be done to improve the system. You certainly have a right to be disappointed if the basics are buggered.

My additional advice to you is what I decided for myself years ago: Learn to do installs yourself. All of it. I only hire someone to do something that requires a skillset like fiberglassing, upholstery etc that I have not learned yet.

Everything you need is available on the internet, and this forum is the best I have ever used. Have a question? Ask here. Someone will help you resolve the issue. Then order stuff off the internet and save some money on installs.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> your pissed that there is a noise problem because you THINK they grabbed signal from after the amp.. wow. also who told you that this isnt the best place to grab a signal? your friends on the acrua forum? how the hell would they know where to grab clean signal? (also it doesnt matter if you grab before or after, you just gotta determine if its low voltage or high voltage).. go check out the "stupidest thing anyone has said to you" thread.. you will most likely see some quotes from them :laugh:
> 
> minisq is right. you went in there and had them write you up a list, went behind their backs to get it cheaper, went back to them to get it installed (for 350 dollars no less), have absolutely no idea how or what they did (besides that its run in mono), and are here bitching about how they did their job wrong? get the **** outa here


It doesn't take an idiot to know with any common sense, the best place to grab signal is closest to the source. DUH!!!! Not after the factory amp, using a line converter, then try and process it back clean...Why not just start clean? Because they just do a one size fits all routine there, that's why. Its my fault....but I have a right to be pissed about this horrible sounding system. 

This is the problem. The signal path was never discussed at the shop. If I am going to blow $2,000 on a system, lets talk options....Not a one size fits all using $25 LOC's after the factory amp. If the possibility exists ( which it most certainly does), to get the signal straight from the HU, then lets discuss it. I would have paid more if I had to in labor to do it this way. 

They did do their job wrong. Its in ****ing mono, and the white noise is ridiculous. Ok, Ill eat the white noise, but mono, no you get the **** out of here. I have every right to be pissed. The system they designed sucked, the install sucked....I noticed in 3 minutes it was mono...You would think the installer would have some type of way of noticing. Musicians ears are so much better than the normal every day joe. But I am the bad guy, because I bought the parts online and tried to save $400. Excuse the **** out of me for not wanting to give these clowns an extra $400.


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

beerdrnkr said:


> How is it the OP's fault that they only charged him $350? Bottom line is that the shop shouldn't have let the car leave with a bunch of hiss and sounding terrible.


Exactly my point, if the shop have respect for what they do and the install alone dont give them enough profit, then they shouldn't do it, it seems like they do it wrong or putting only half of the time/attention needed. I prefer a clear and honest salesman than have this kind of troubles.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

diy.phil said:


> Not sure if any shop will intentionally wire it wrong in this day and age where it'll hit online a few minutes after the work is done or even while it's being installed lol. Sometimes it's just miswired (a bad install but maybe unintentional).
> 
> I need one/two of you enthusiast/expert guys nearby the OP to meet him outside a coffee shop. Bring along your test discs that plays/speaks/identifies the left channel, right channel, in-phase and out-of-phase. If the sound is mono or like in the center perhaps it's diffused or out-of-phase(?)


I am sure it wasn't intentional. I just say its a bad system they have there. Someone should be checking installers work. Quality control. I understand people make mistakes. Its pretty clear its in mono. Dave Grohl's guitar echoes to the right hand side in this song. Its going straight down the middle. 

I have the harness coming next week. going to take that and go straight into the amp, which should resolve mono sound, unless the wiring is botched from the amp. Appreciate the offer to have someone come help.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> It doesn't take an idiot to know with any common sense, the best place to grab signal is closest to the source. DUH!!!! Not after the factory amp, using a line converter, then try and process it back clean...Why not just start clean? Because they just do a one size fits all routine there, that's why. Its my fault....but I have a right to be pissed about this horrible sounding system.
> 
> This is the problem. The signal path was never discussed at the shop. If I am going to blow $2,000 on a system, lets talk options....Not a one size fits all using $25 LOC's after the factory amp. If the possibility exists ( which it most certainly does), to get the signal straight from the HU, then lets discuss it. I would have paid more if I had to in labor to do it this way.
> 
> They did do their job wrong. Its in ****ing mono, and the white noise is ridiculous. Ok, Ill eat the white noise, but mono, no you get the **** out of here. I have every right to be pissed. The system they designed sucked, the install sucked....I noticed in 3 minutes it was mono...You would think the installer would have some type of way of noticing. Musicians ears are so much better than the normal every day joe. But I am the bad guy, because I bought the parts online and tried to save $400. Excuse the **** out of me for not wanting to give these clowns an extra $400.


i'm trying to root for you here....but you are making it hard with statements like this.


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## BlkRamRt (Nov 27, 2013)

Daum that sucks. thats one of the reasons why I do my own installs. just incase something goes wrong I know I was the one that messed up. i am sure you will have this sorted out soon. good luck.


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## Doppleganger (Dec 11, 2013)

Avalanche said:


> My additional advice to you is what I decided for myself years ago: Learn to do installs yourself. All of it. I only hire someone to do something that requires a skillset like fiberglassing, upholstery etc that I have not learned yet.
> 
> Everything you need is available on the internet, and this forum is the best I have ever used. Have a question? Ask here. Someone will help you resolve the issue. Then order stuff off the internet and save some money on installs.


THIS x1,000.

I have found this is the rule on just about anything these days.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

...and learn how to solder like a boss.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I would tear the shop a new one but I like doing that sort of thing when they purposely do horrible work.

The Acuras are so easy. The front left and right are full range out of the HU. Send those two channels to your amp/line driver/processor, or whatever you're running and you have your full range signal.....in stereo. I don't know how some of these shops stay in business. You just don't let a car leave in mono.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Doppleganger said:


> THIS x1,000.
> 
> I have found this is the rule on just about anything these days.


Yea, I'm learning...


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

miniSQ said:


> i'm trying to root for you here....but you are making it hard with statements like this.


He's right. Taking the signal post amp on these Acuras will result in a hiss that you will never be able to get rid of. The only proper way to grab the signal is pre-amp. Most of the JL amps will accept this low level signal just fine with no line driver. I have a line driver in mine left over from the MS8 but it's not necessary with the current setup. I made the mistake of pulling signal post amp in the beginning. The only way to get the hiss to be acceptable was to back the gains down to where it was no louder than stock. The exception to the rule is obviously the subs. It's ok to use a LOC on the sub output post amp for the signal. I don't know what's so hard to believe that post signal will not work in these Acuras unless you like hiss.


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## chevbowtie22 (Nov 23, 2008)

I might be the only one here but I would love to hear the shop's side of this . . .


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

Could it be possible if they tapped from rear speakers that its mono? ...you know, matrixed for rear fill ambiance not a true stereo signal?

No idea how Acura deals with the rear channels.


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

To the op, if you wanna bring your car to me I'll redo the install the way you want it for 600$. Hell I'll even set the phasing of your speakers included in that. 

Just thought I'd offer while we're on the topic of making money well spent. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I don't think I'd trust an installer that can't put a dollar sign in the right spot...

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

quality_sound said:


> I don't think I'd trust an installer that can't put a dollar sign in the right spot...
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


:laugh:


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> I would have paid more if I had to in labor to do it this way.


Are you sure?

Knowing the ridiculously low price they quoted you for the install, what did you really expect? It sounds like he quoted you a bare minimum install job that was just for running wires and hooking things up. Part of being a wise consumer is keeping expectations in check and knowing what you're getting for a given price. Lower price usually equals lower quality, and never assume you're getting something for nothing.

The situation sucks, but I'd also like to hear the shop's side of this as well.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

this thread kicks ass.

first, the shop took the job after spending sales time on the customer. If the guy walks in and says "I'm going to take 3 hours of your time, and then bend you over by buying online, will you still do a good install for me, I got like, 350 for you in labor" the shop guy either walks him out or says, "you sunbeech, we're slow, so gimme Visa"

shop guy said, "we're slow" when he decided to install anyway.

once that hurdle's crossed, you can't go back and make a crap job justified, you can't do shoddy work. People underbid all the time, in the hopes the guy networks some business to him later on.


what a real estate dude? "hey, you sell a lot, huh? I give you good rate, you spread the word, eh?"

so now you've got a pissed off guy who should have been made right, it makes no difference where he bought the goods after they passed him into the install bay.

the shop is working their way out of the business with customer service like that.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, let's also keep in mind that the OP hasn't even gone back to the shop yet, so as far as the shop is concerned they don't even know there is an issue. You can't say a shop has bad customer service when an issue hasn't surfaced yet.

And there is always two sides to a story. Question everything!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I still find it funny that they wired it in mono. I mean, seriously? OP assed them, they assed him xD


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

hurrication said:


> Well, let's also keep in mind that the OP hasn't even gone back to the shop yet, so as far as the shop is concerned they don't even know there is an issue. You can't say a shop has bad customer service when an issue hasn't surfaced yet.
> 
> And there is always two sides to a story. Question everything!


you think the shop didn't know they were sending the guy out with a mono system?

the way I see it, (if I installed for a living) the system has to meet spec before anyone takes it out the bay.

I'm gonna know if it's mono, and I'm not gonna chump change a customer because he didn't spring for the stereo multiplexer option.

we got stereo since 1932 or something, a car gets mono in 2013, is a joke.

obviously, it appears there's something more involved in the install that didn't happen and it may be because the guy was adamant about not buying another piece that wasn't in the quote, or trying to get smart about "you said 1680, I'm not going higher because you forgot something"

that's where the pinch is, I think.


but you never know, some people might not be able to see where they are at the mercy of people with more knowledge than them, and the break in trust is the most upsetting part of the customer-salesperson relationship.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

I love when people read something on the interwebs and all of a sudden are experts. It really brings the lulz.


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## PsyCLown (May 17, 2013)

Angrywhopper said:


> I love when people read something on the interwebs and all of a sudden are experts. It really brings the lulz.


You aren't suddenly an expert but I can assure you that often you will end up knowing more than the other person.

Soo many times I have done some research on the forum, getting information *from* various experts, go to a place and I end up knowing more than the person there.

I personally find it quite embarrassing when you go to a car dealership and know more about the car you are interested in than the salesman does. I am not talking about a place which stocks multiple cars, but perhaps something like a Honda dealership or a Kia dealership. Their ranges are limited.

This applies to more than just cars. People are lazy and often do not care about how it could be better, especially when it comes to something like installing a car sound system. The extra hassle for a "slight improvement" and the extra time it takes. Also why go and research how the various cars and their systems differ and what would be best for each car when there are quick and easy ways to get the system working without doing all that research.

It is not their car, they are not the ones who need listen to it everyday and majority of the people will more than likely be happy with it.


I feel as if people should try have a bit of pride in their work.
Any salesman should know his/her product well, unlike all of the ones I have ever dealt with when it comes to cars. It is just outright embarrassing when they start to list some of the specs of the car, I ask a question and he replies with a "I am not sure, I will have to check that for you".

The same should apply to a car audio shop, they should not want to install a crappy system. It is bad for business. If my friend gets his car sound done at a certain place, I go and listen to it and I think its a really crappy system and he was charged a fortune for it, I would not want to goto that shop - that alone would make me want to avoid it and think badly of them. The fact that in most peoples mind car sound systems are far from high fidelity and that is not possible. Car sound = boomy, overpowering bass, rattles, ear piercing highs and a midrange which is as tinny as a character from the Wizard of Oz in most peoples minds.

The car shops are in the car audio industry, they should want to try and change that - it would be better for them. The OP and his install is representing this car audio shop, some new person joins up on this forum and does a search for that car shops name and find this thread. Personally I would be a bit worried with the fact that the shop allowed such a thing to happen.

Yes, fine. There were some parts which were suddenly recommended by the car audio shop which were not on the initial quote, however if a client wants something from me and I think there is a better option, I will go to the client and explain what they want and why I do not recommend it and think that something else is a better option. Perhaps even provide alternatives.


Another thing is that you guys seem to think that $350 is cheap for a car install, granted I do not stay in America and our currency is much weaker than the USD but if I convert that, it is insanely high. The amount of extra components I can get with that is quiet something. I could get a nice monoblock and subwoofer. Our support staff here at work do no even earn that much a month.
I am not sure how much installs cost here in South Africa either, although I can say that if the average car shop charged that fee, very very few people would have the shops install their gear.

My friend got his car done earlier this year, he got a Focal Bomba, Focal 4" coax and 6" coax installed in his car as well as some sound deadening done and all the wiring, LOC's included. That came to $680 in total and the Bomba locally costs around $400. The sound shop he went to is not the cheapest either, if you were shopping around for parts you could probably get them cheaper else where.

However different economy and the people are use to different standards.
For most of you it seems that $350 for an install is nothing.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I've met a lot more experts online than I have walking around the mall or something.


I think the internet concentrates 'em, like orange juice.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> you think the shop didn't know they were sending the guy out with a mono system?
> 
> the way I see it, (if I installed for a living) the system has to meet spec before anyone takes it out the bay.


I'm sure they knew, but they probably just did what was within the limitations of the customer's install budget. The real world doesn't care about spec, especially if they are going to lose money on it.


> obviously, it appears there's something more involved in the install that didn't happen and it may be because the guy was adamant about not buying another piece that wasn't in the quote, or trying to get smart about "you said 1680, I'm not going higher because you forgot something"


I think you're right.. I have a gut feeling that we aren't getting the whole story here. OP seems to get a little butthurt towards replies that aren't in his favor, so this thread could have been created solely for OP to try and justify something.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

i dont have a ton of time to think about this thread, but one thing that keeps nagging at me it how do you actually wire a system in mono? I cant think how i would do that even if i wanted to.

Out of phase yes....reverse the left and right speakers yes...but mono?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> i dont have a ton of time to think about this thread, but one thing that keeps nagging at me it how do you actually wire a system in mono? I cant think how i would do that even if i wanted to.
> 
> Out of phase yes....reverse the left and right speakers yes...but mono?


I bet it took some thought xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## peenemunde (Aug 31, 2013)

Come on guys, lets blame the real culprits here.... The Communist's were in on it, FOR SURE!

In all seriousness, a shop should hold itself to a higher standard then that. I've had friends walk into our local audio shops, drop THOUSANDS of dollars and walk out happy. Then, when I get in their car to listen it's terrible... Highs smashing you in the face, no response from door speakers whatsoever, and bass that's muddy and slow.. He was all sorts of pumped because he has no idea what high fidelity is and cared more about the "Cadillac Emblem" they customized for his box. Pulling a sub-par project out of a work bay is unacceptable in my book, even if the customer is happy. You should want your work to reflect on your business in a good way. No cutting corners, no misinformation


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

I called the shop yesterday morning and asked for the owner. Whoever answered the phone said he was unavailable and asked if he could help me. So I told him my system was in mono and had a lot of noise.so he took my name and number and said that someone would call me back. As suspected nobody has called me back. It may have been the installer on the phone. Not sure. 

it gets better. Yesterday I go to put a soda in the rear console, and go to pull it down it's a little tight. So I get it down and realize they drilled the amps into the center console. I just keep hearing in my head "we have been in the business for 40 years". Drill holes in the center console through the leather. 

So to whoever said i was butthurt.. Cliffnotes: shop designs system that is sure to have noise. ( with a class D amp). Didnt qoute correct equipment in original qoute either to even install it his way. I go with his suggestions. Yea yea yea...I bought the parts online and saved $400. Get car back. System is in mono. ( not sure how he did this....same signal going through both speakers can verify this). There is a ton of noise....and he drilled the amp through to the center console, totally avoidable. To go further. Realize in his 40 years of infinate wisdom...he missed part about getting a balanced signal from the HU which would have been way cleaner than where he got it. I trusted this guy. I didnt want to learn all this crap. Just wanted a little bit better than factory radio installed nice and neat. Thats all. 

I am tempted to call my credit card company and reverse the charges. Ill take pics and notes. He can sue me. I have a harness coming and am getting a new class a/b amp with balanced inputs. This will be so much cleaner. Sure, I bet they would install it to make good....but really would rather give my money to someone else or do it myself.


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## PsyCLown (May 17, 2013)

peenemunde said:


> Come on guys, lets blame the real culprits here.... The Communist's were in on it, FOR SURE!
> 
> In all seriousness, a shop should hold itself to a higher standard then that. I've had friends walk into our local audio shops, drop THOUSANDS of dollars and walk out happy. Then, when I get in their car to listen it's terrible... Highs smashing you in the face, no response from door speakers whatsoever, and bass that's muddy and slow.. He was all sorts of pumped because he has no idea what high fidelity is and cared more about the "Cadillac Emblem" they customized for his box. Pulling a sub-par project out of a work bay is unacceptable in my book, even if the customer is happy. You should want your work to reflect on your business in a good way. No cutting corners, no misinformation


QFT

However people do not look at it this way. 
It is easy money for them. Most people do not know what high fidelity is.
Bigger speakers = louder and car sound upgrade = louder in most peoples minds. Clarity, tonality and a sound stage is unimaginable. Home theater setups with multiple speakers *has* to be better than a simple stereo setup, even with music 

^^^ That is how the average person sees it.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

PsyCLown said:


> QFT
> 
> However people do not look at it this way.
> It is easy money for them. Most people do not know what high fidelity is.
> ...


I agree. My mistake was trusting this guy as an expert. Should have known his average client doest have an ear. Well they may, but unless they have been a musician at some point, not nearly as good as mine. I should have been real clear up front. The main problem is coming off the factory HU. I am sure if I bought an aftermarket hu, wouldn't be having these issues. But when dealing with factory HU, in my opinion, if there is any way to get signal off the HU, before the stock amp and the signal being coverted, then you shoukd always try and get it there, vs using locs and then processors to clean it up. Again, my musician and studio background of less is more and clean is better.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

hurrication said:


> I'm sure they knew, but they probably just did what was within the limitations of the customer's install budget. The real world doesn't care about spec, especially if they are going to lose money on it.
> 
> I think you're right.. I have a gut feeling that we aren't getting the whole story here. OP seems to get a little butthurt towards replies that aren't in his favor, so this thread could have been created solely for OP to try and justify something.


The extra piece was the second part of the cleansweep. And in my defense, call me during the install, tell me I really need it, I'll buy the dam thing if I need it. I may bring it up when at the register that he never quoted it before...but I would have bought it. But dont tell me about it at 530 when picking up the car. Call me...lets talk about it. I was never a prick to him. I even tipped the installer $20. 

And if they knew it was mono...****ing shame on them. I bought exactly what he said. And anyways, let me know. "Ok. If you install what you brought us, its going to be in mono." I really believe the installer is someone who kinda knows this stuff, but not really...and he has no ear. I cant believe any shop would send out a mono system without a discussion with the customer. Come on man....


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Talked to the intsaller. He said he meant to call me back. So I told him my issues. He said to bring it back to the store. So I started to ask where they got signal. He said he didn't know....that he did the amp and speakers....I felt like he was hiding something....I asked o talk to the owner...he was like I'll take care of you etc....he was obviously trying to save his ass. I asked him to call me when he coukd verify signal. So he said I can guarantee it came from before the factory amp. So he went from the hu into the clean sweep summing device into the amp. He said usually the clean sweep is done after the amp??? I am more confused. Felt like he was really just trying to cover his ass. 

Part of me just wants to wait for the harness ( snaps into the hu connector and provides balanced rca outs) , install a new class a/b amp and skip clean sweep. Installer said the outputs would be too low off the hu and would have to turn the gain way up on the amp. However the guy that designed the harness ( mercman harness...google it) says u can go right into an amp that accepts balanced inputs and you will have very low risk of noise. Providing the amp accepts balanced differential inputs.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

If they aren't able to fix your issue, look up Audiomasters in Pineville, NC. They'll do you right. But if they are going to take it back in, give them a chance to fix the issue. AFTER that is done, then I would probably approach the shop owner about the drilling through the leather of the center console. There are cleaner ways to do these things and shoddy craftsmanship is something that a shop owner will want to know about regarding his install crew.

I would use the outputs from the stock HU as they have been confirmed full range left and right.


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## fast4door (Aug 2, 2012)

question to the OP . When you were taking delivery of the car after the install did someone sit in the car with you and give you a demo of what they did ?


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

fast4door said:


> question to the OP . When you were taking delivery of the car after the install did someone sit in the car with you and give you a demo of what they did ?


They did a demo. I thought it sounded flat, but I assumed I would go in and tune everything to my ears and music later so wasn't too concerned. His demo was blues music, I like rock so knew I was gonna have to tune. As I got down the road, I then noticed the noise ( when switching tracks)....then noticed it was mono and verified with a song that pans guitars hard to the left or right.


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

Give them one opportunity to try to fix it and if not GTFO of that shop and look for a more respected one. Drill unncesarry holes, mono, noise, come on...

What is the issue with the amp? It dont receive balanced outputs? Maybe you should wait a little more to get the harness you order and try it. Although I dont know if I want an installer like that tearing apart an Acura front deck...

If you go to another shop, ask them to double check the correct intallation of the power wiring and fuses..


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## fast4door (Aug 2, 2012)

the bottom line is that the car should leave the shop with everything correct. If he agreed to do the install then he should make it right. I have been in your shoes many times this is why I hang out here lol. I once spent north of 2k on JL w6's when they first came out and the shop wired them wrong and one blew in the parking lot when doing the demo lol . You have to find the right shop with quality personal that like their jobs . Usually they will be on the high side as they are worth every penny of it if they do what you want the first time with no be backs required . GL


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Yea...to replace the armrest is $240.00. This doesn't count the holes that show up in the rear seat where the armrest lays when stored....

I don't want to go back. I am going to call him, and demand a full refund of the $505.00. The armrest is $240.00, I will deal with the holes in the rear of the seat, and I will accept the ****ty install and deal with it myself...Calling now. I am so pissed now.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

fast4door said:


> the bottom line is that the car should leave the shop with everything correct. If he agreed to do the install then he should make it right. I have been in your shoes many times this is why I hang out here lol. I once spent north of 2k on JL w6's when they first came out and the shop wired them wrong and one blew in the parking lot when doing the demo lol . You have to find the right shop with quality personal that like their jobs . Usually they will be on the high side as they are worth every penny of it if they do what you want the first time with no be backs required . GL


I've considered opening a shop on my side of town....About 6 years ago, I took my car to a shop on this side of town. We all took our cars there, and never had issues. They were called Custom Car Stereo. Evidently, the owner got hooked on crack, and you know the rest. Wish they were still here. My business mind is seeing an opportunity here...I fully believe people will pay top dollar for good quality work, with some decent engineering of systems as well.


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

@moneyfornothing, any photos of the visible parts of the install?


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Didn't take any....Not sure if I would be able to post them being new to the forum anyways.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Update....

Owner of the company called me today. I guess he had been reading this thread. He was offended, and probably rightfully so, since I slammed him online before talking with him. So I will give him that, as I should have talked to him first to make thing right. He agrees that he runs the show and doesn't install, so sometimes quality issues can happen. I still say that seems like a quality control issue, but ok, it happens. 

I went through my issues, and he said to just come in next week when I get my harness, and he will make it right. I felt good about the conversation, and sounds stand up and seems ready to make everything ok. I told him about the damage, and he said he would fix it. 

He did mention about me buying the parts online, and he was offended. He thought maybe we had spent more time together going over options, but I told him it was maybe 10-15 minutes. Either way, I can see his point, as I am sure he can see mine. I saved about $400 bucks, and he didn't make it. So, I can see his point, as I am sure he can see mine. 

I will update next week, but for now, everything seems ok. He said that my amp did have balanced inputs. Kenwood XR900-5, then to fix everything and install the harness should be easy.


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

good to hear that, did you mention the shop name? I dont put attention to it, maybe you can delete it to keep the badname spreading as a sign of good faith haha


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

#facepalm


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

last time I went by my old friend's stereo shop the guy was just barely scraping by, I "kept him company" while he went about installing a sub behind the seat of a big crewcab, one he'd just finished building and carpeting.

I asked him if he'd done any big installs lately and if there was some scrap deadener around, and he said nobody comes in for that stuff anymore. So I said, "picked up a couple amps on clearance online, when I put them in I'll probably drop by for an alarm" and he said he had alarms for 100, installed for 200. Bulldog, haha.. I asked him about the Viper and he said he dropped the line, not enough people want to spend for the better stuff. I'd taken plenty of product off his hands over the years, we were friends enough that I could hang out back ever since I knew him, even if most others were stopped by the "insurance" at the counter.


this was maybe 2 years ago. A few weeks ago I passed his place and it was all shuttered up, looked like vandals had broken in, grass all overgrown and it was clear he'd shut it down a while ago.

I felt pretty hollow inside, not knowing what became of a fair guy in a ruthless world.


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## ebrit003 (Oct 27, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> i dont have a ton of time to think about this thread, but one thing that keeps nagging at me it how do you actually wire a system in mono? I cant think how i would do that even if i wanted to.
> 
> Out of phase yes....reverse the left and right speakers yes...but mono?


Hahaha I was thinking this same thing.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Could have wired front and rear instead of left right... its possible i guess


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

cajunner said:


> last time I went by my old friend's stereo shop the guy was just barely scraping by, I "kept him company" while he went about installing a sub behind the seat of a big crewcab, one he'd just finished building and carpeting.
> 
> I asked him if he'd done any big installs lately and if there was some scrap deadener around, and he said nobody comes in for that stuff anymore. So I said, "picked up a couple amps on clearance online, when I put them in I'll probably drop by for an alarm" and he said he had alarms for 100, installed for 200. Bulldog, haha.. I asked him about the Viper and he said he dropped the line, not enough people want to spend for the better stuff. I'd taken plenty of product off his hands over the years, we were friends enough that I could hang out back ever since I knew him, even if most others were stopped by the "insurance" at the counter.
> 
> ...


Sucks to hear, but the answer to why it was all boarded up was answered earlier in your own post! *"Picked up a couple amps on clearance online". * That seems to be the trend..


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

REGULARCAB said:


> Could have wired front and rear instead of left right... its possible i guess


Yea, I am confused to now that I think about it. Its like the signals were combined.....

I took a look to see what they did, since I ordered the harness. Looks like they cut the wires from the headunit, ran them back to the cleansweep, then from there to the amp, and from the amp back to the original splice, and then spliced into the existing speaker wires. 

Sucks, cuz to hook up the harness, it will have to be spliced it back over to the original connector.


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## THEDUKE (Aug 25, 2008)

moneyfornothing said:


> Yea, I am confused to now that I think about it. Its like the signals were combined.....
> 
> I took a look to see what they did, since I ordered the harness. Looks like they cut the wires from the headunit, ran them back to the cleansweep, then from there to the amp, and from the amp back to the original splice, and then spliced into the existing speaker wires.
> 
> Sucks, cuz to hook up the harness, it will have to be spliced it back over to the original connector.


I hope they bypassed the factory amp at some point because, if what you say is true isn't the signal still not going into the factory amplifier after the aftermarket amplifier?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> Yea, I am confused to now that I think about it. Its like the signals were combined.....
> 
> I took a look to see what they did, since I ordered the harness. Looks like they cut the wires from the headunit, ran them back to the cleansweep, then from there to the amp, and from the amp back to the original splice, and then spliced into the existing speaker wires.
> 
> Sucks, cuz to hook up the harness, it will have to be spliced it back over to the original connector.


it should have been wire from HU ( or factory amp ) into the cleansweep molex connector...done. Then....RCA out of the clean sweep into the amp....done. And then speaker wire out of the amp to the speakers...done.

Not sure where this backtracking and re entering the spice comes in? 

On my car...i cut the wire from the amp to the speaker down by the kick panel...one side of the wire ( closest to the amp ) would go into the cleansweep, and the other side of the wire ( closest to the speaker ) would then go into the after market amp to power the speakers. I did this because i was too lazy and not anal enough to run new speaker thru my door panel.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

moneyfornothing said:


> Update....
> 
> Owner of the company called me today. I guess he had been reading this thread. He was offended, and probably rightfully so, since I slammed him online before talking with him. So I will give him that, as I should have talked to him first to make thing right. He agrees that he runs the show and doesn't install, so sometimes quality issues can happen. I still say that seems like a quality control issue, but ok, it happens.
> 
> ...


Think about the damage you did to somebodies business because you didnt call him to give him a chance to make it right, you cant fix that. Now think about how you would feel if the same happened to you(since you are in sales). Now imagine if sombody listed a house that was sure to sell over .5% comission that you needed to stay in biz. 
That is how this biz owner feels and why brick and mortars are going by the wayside, for $400 you probably would have had a fantastic experience with a warranty on all your product.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

chefhow said:


> Think about the damage you did to somebodies business because you didnt call him to give him a chance to make it right, you cant fix that. Now think about how you would feel if the same happened to you(since you are in sales). Now imagine if sombody listed a house that was sure to sell over .5% comission that you needed to stay in biz.
> That is how this biz owner feels and why brick and mortars are going by the wayside, for $400 you probably would have had a fantastic experience with a warranty on all your product.


In my opinion, the install was botched bad...Maybe I help him stay in business, because he realizes he has a problem with quality control. Or maybe it was a one time thing. 

SO, you are suggesting for $400 more, and buying the merchandise there, it would have been installed correctly? That seems ludicrous. You are suggesting he installed it wrong because I didn't buy it there. I doubt that. 




THEDUKE said:


> I hope they bypassed the factory amp at some point because, if what you say is true isn't the signal still not going into the factory amplifier after the aftermarket amplifier?



I think they did. I would assume they did.....Not sure, I need to take another look tomorrow. Maybe that's the problem. I doubt it though. I think they spliced back in to the wires going to the speakers. EDIT- Yea, pretty sure its wired ok on the speaker wire end. They cut the harness that plugs into the amplifier (on both ends, front the heads unit, and to the speakers).


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Isn't the cleansweep a signal summing unit?

IIRC, that headunit is flat on all channels pre factory amp

That unit was really a complete waste of money if it's being used to flatten out the signal.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

edzyy said:


> Isn't the cleansweep a signal summing unit?
> 
> IIRC, that headunit is flat on all channels pre factory amp
> 
> That unit was really a complete waste of money if it's being used to flatten out the signal.


I agree. He mentioned I needed it during the first install quote. But obviously didn't need it. I bet the noise is coming from it...Not sure. 

I have a mercman harness coming, which provides balanced outputs. Problem is the Kenwood xr900-5 doesn't seem to have balanced inputs, although the shop believes it does.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

edzyy said:


> Isn't the cleansweep a signal summing unit?
> 
> IIRC, that headunit is flat on all channels pre factory amp
> 
> That unit was really a complete waste of money if it's being used to flatten out the signal.


In his(someones) defense it is pretty hard to know if the HU signal is flat unless you have experience with it. But yeah it could just be a really expensive line converter at this point.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Angrywhopper said:


> Sucks to hear, but the answer to why it was all boarded up was answered earlier in your own post! *"Picked up a couple amps on clearance online". * That seems to be the trend..


it wasn't a question, as much as a statement.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

REGULARCAB said:


> In his(someones) defense it is pretty hard to know if the HU signal is flat unless you have experience with it. But yeah it could just be a really expensive line converter at this point.


It's the shops job to know these things, though. 

Or at least do some testing to verify if the signal is flat or not.

They recommended the man a product he didn't need, but got upset he went elsewhere to buy it :laugh:


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

this is a train wreck....on many levels.:stooge_moe:


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

this thread twists on a spike, don't it?

is it shady practices, is it pure neglect, is it neither?

anyways, in my defense I'm 45 years old and my first car stereo install was when I was 15 years old.

in that time I've learned my way into not paying more than necessary, and the learning curve cost me a lot of my time, time that is worth something.

this site helps people side-step the brick and mortar, and others like it.

networking makes it easier for people to find others who don't mind helping them, the game has changed and sales of car stereos depends on a shrinking demand from OEM getting better to people not having the extra disposable income.


if you put together all the money I made the brick and mortar friend over the years I've earned my discount today, but kids today aren't putting the money back into the system, they are competing with me for the deals because the deals are everywhere except the brick and mortars, who are resorting to drastic measures.

like selling extra product people don't need, then saying "you gotta buy this other part" when they find out you're cutting out their 25% mark-up by paying 15% mark-up online.


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

REGULARCAB said:


> In his(someones) defense it is pretty hard to know if the HU signal is flat unless you have experience with it. But yeah it could just be a really expensive line converter at this point.


Actually it's just as easy as scoping an amp. It's called a rta. 

Not siding with anyone, just thought I'd clarify an incorrect statement. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

The Performer said:


> Actually it's just as easy as scoping an amp. It's called a rta.
> 
> Not siding with anyone, just thought I'd clarify an incorrect statement.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Hence the "experience with it" clause


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

REGULARCAB said:


> In his(someones) defense it is pretty hard to know if the HU signal is flat unless you have experience with it.


Someone said that no matter what, you will never get a factory head unit to sound as good as an aftermarket hu.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

holy **** this thread is one hell of a clusterfuck


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

moneyfornothing said:


> Someone said that no matter what, you will never get a factory head unit to sound as good as an aftermarket hu.


Not always. Ever used a farenhighet head unit? 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> holy **** this thread is one hell of a clusterfuck


Haha...your telling me. I'm living the insanity...Get to spend next few days doing some traveling in my crappy sounding car. makes me want to listen to talk radio.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

I had a $30 Dual once... so much win :laugh:


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## fireball (Oct 20, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> Haha...your telling me. I'm living the insanity...Get to spend next few days doing some traveling in my crappy sounding car. makes me want to listen to talk radio.


After all this you deserve to get your "drinks for free"


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## fergsonfire (May 26, 2011)

love this thread, has entertained me for a good 30 minutes this morning


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## fast4door (Aug 2, 2012)

chefhow said:


> Think about the damage you did to somebodies business because you didnt call him to give him a chance to make it right, you cant fix that. Now think about how you would feel if the same happened to you(since you are in sales). Now imagine if sombody listed a house that was sure to sell over .5% comission that you needed to stay in biz.
> That is how this biz owner feels and why brick and mortars are going by the wayside, for $400 you probably would have had a fantastic experience with a warranty on all your product.




If the shop would have done it right the first time none of this would have happened.


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## peenemunde (Aug 31, 2013)

fergsonfire said:


> love this thread, has entertained me for a good 30 minutes this morning


Right ¿? I said something, oh 3 pages ago and I get all the updates  I laugh every time I read it


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

Being in customer service my whole life in one way or another, the end result here is ********. I don't care if the customer is a prick. When we do our work for our clients/customers/pricks, we give them a level of service that we built the company on, nothing less. We don't gauge our level of service based on the personality of the customer.

I've dealt with many people who I would have had 0 personal issues with just telling them to F off, but as a representative of the company, I dealt with it professionally and put everything aside to make sure that the product/service delivered was on par with the expectations of my company.

Parts are priced at a point, based upon walking out of the store with it in the box, no install intent. Labor is priced at a point, based upon already having the product and needing work. What if the company doesn't sell the **** you're looking for? What are they going to say, oh screw off, you didn't buy this **** we have on the shelf, and now you want US to install that for you? Seriously. They were only asked to perform the labor and do the work.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that someone wanting to upgrade their car stereo wants their setup to be in stereo. They hooked that stuff up in mono, not because you didn't have the equipment to hook it up in stereo, they did it just because they have crappy customer service. Period.

They should have called you and told you, asked you what you wanted to do, and offered a solution to make it work. That's customer service 101.

There are far too many companies out there who are more interested in your money today, than your business tomorrow.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

ShaneInMN said:


> Being in customer service my whole life in one way or another, the end result here is ********. I don't care if the customer is a prick. When we do our work for our clients/customers/pricks, we give them a level of service that we built the company on, nothing less. We don't gauge our level of service based on the personality of the customer.
> 
> I've dealt with many people who I would have had 0 personal issues with just telling them to F off, but as a representative of the company, I dealt with it professionally and put everything aside to make sure that the product/service delivered was on par with the expectations of my company.
> 
> ...


Agreed with everything. I really think the installer doesn't have a good ear, or just doesn't a system in place to check these things. If I was an installer, I would test with a song that I know WELL...I would know where things pan, and how it should sound. However, I would prob ask the client what kind of music they like, and then, after I tested with MY song, then tune it to a rock setup, or electronic, etc....

Again, this is how I would do it, but I don't own a car shop......


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

How important new speaker wire? Is it common to just hook into the existing speaker wire system from the aftermarket amp?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> How important new speaker wire? Is it common to just hook into the existing speaker wire system from the aftermarket amp?


its not super critical to the overall sound. Depends on the power and your budget. 

Obviously the ultimate it to run fresh wire from the amp to the speakers, but getting fresh wire to the kick panel and tying in there leaves only a couple of feet of usually undersized wire.


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf

That'll give you an idea of performance between the different gauges. I ran 16ga from my amp to my harness and from there the factory wires were 18ga, plenty good enough for 100W RMS to my doors drivers. I figure I'm probably losing about 0.25 db


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## fireball (Oct 20, 2009)

REGULARCAB said:


> I had a $30 Dual once... so much win :laugh:


Speaker wire size with this setup is not important. It'll sound amazing using a coat hanger to connect the speakers!

Seriously though, not sure why you're asking, but speaker wire size would not affect or cause any of the problems you're having.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

fireball said:


> Speaker wire size with this setup is not important. It'll sound amazing using a coat hanger to connect the speakers!
> 
> Seriously though, not sure why you're asking, but speaker wire size would not affect or cause any of the problems you're having.


Yea. Was just asking for sake of it. Going back next week. If it made a difference was gonna see about it. I have a harness that produces balanced differential outputs and got an amp with balanced inputs. It should sound clean and sweet.


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## namesmeanlittle (Nov 20, 2013)

you do know that mono sounds good?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

namesmeanlittle said:


> you do know that mono sounds good?


You just blew my mind


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

REGULARCAB said:


> You just blew my mind


Mono is the best!!!


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

OK. Almost all of my parts are in. Just waiting on the connector to connect back to the factory HU. 

I made a list of installer notes that I will bring to the install. Here is what I got. I am sure they don't like "instructions" per se, but I spent a lot of time researching the best way to hook up to the factory head unit. Here is what I got:

Installer notes:
Existing system has a lot of noise, and is in Mono. On track 2 of CD1, the guitar is panned to the left side of the stereo mix for 4 bars. Then when the delay of the guitar comes in, the delay hits are panned hard to the right side. As it is now, everything goes right down the middle. 

To resolve noise, and hopefully the mono issue: 

1.	Would like the custom harness installed. See attached instructions. To install as the system is, the wires that were cut from the HU for the previous install will have to be wired back into the factory 14 pin connector. Either you can try and rewire to the existing connector (wires were cut close to the connector), or I have another connector that you can wire the HU into. Then you just connect the connector into the harness. 
2.	The existing Kenwood amp does not have balanced differential inputs. Because of this, according to the maker of the harness, it will cause one side of each output to be shorted to ground, and this will cause the HU to go into limiting which will cause lots of noise. So therefore-
3. I have purchased an amp with differential balanced inputs. So you can wire the HU straight into the amp and uninstall the clean sweep. 
4.	I have a new cup holder to be installed where the last one was damaged in the back seat. I tried to get the old one out, but was unsuccessful. 
5.	A leather repair kit is sold from Auto-Zone, and should be able to clean up and repair the existing leather punctures from the old install. I did not have time to pick one up. It doesn't have to look perfect, but will avoid purchasing a new armrest from Acura, which is $278. 

Please call with any issues, 828-xxx-xxxx. I am available, and if not, leave a message, and will call right back.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

:snacks:


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## sannitig (Aug 23, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> shops dont like when you go to them to see what they would recommend, then buy it online to have them install. thats kinda like a big "eF you"


Errr...Then I totally "eF you'd" my shop....


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## THEDUKE (Aug 25, 2008)

Something kept bugging me about the whole "wired in mono" statement that still keeps bugging me. Now that I read this it is bugging me even more. Lets think about this. Everything nowadays is recorded in stereo (left and right), when you say mono that means in a stereo system it is playing only one side. Which means if a guitar is playing on the left side you hear it on the left side. If it is playing on the right side you hear it on the right side. Now if you are in mono you either will not hear the guitar playing on the right side or the left side depending which mono signal you have correct? If that is the case how would you hear both the guitars on the left and right going down the middle. Sounds more like wired out of phase? Just saying or who knows I could be 100% wrong.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

sannitig said:


> Errr...Then I totally "eF you'd" my shop....


^ says the guy that has a thread with "not happy with the end result"

Bottom line; shops should just say "no" to installing other online unauthorized product purchases

If you choose to purchase an item online at a discount then you should be skilled enough to install it yourself...just saying...why is it someone else's problem to fix your risk taking

If shops started saying "no" maybe less products would be purchased online....again just saying


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

If you can, buy a test CD too as it is easier than describing which song pans to which direction. All of us music lovers / SQ / gearheads / SPL enthusiasts (hey that covers all) have a test disc or half a dozen test discs (slowly collect them over the years... don't run out to buy 6 test discs )

I just looked around and there is an item 110851374524 on ebay that probably will work. Pop it in, go to tracks 5,6, 7, 8, 11, 12 and other tracks too. It's not just for this car. It'll come in handy for your next 3 or 10 cars, several home stereos and also friends' stereos too. I don't have this particular disc. I have other discs from Sheffield Lab, IASCA, Autosound, etc blah places.... all works the same... makes it easy to check and setup stuff. If you don't have one in time for the rework/reinstall, the store/installer must certainly have one too - have them play it out to say left channel, right channel, in phase, out of phase, etc. There might be other test discs there on ebay and other places on the internet that you can check too... good luck.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

Sannitig. ...where did you get your install done? I'm from the GTA myself and if I can help you at all let me know


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

THEDUKE said:


> Something kept bugging me about the whole "wired in mono" statement that still keeps bugging me. Now that I read this it is bugging me even more. Lets think about this. Everything nowadays is recorded in stereo (left and right), when you say mono that means in a stereo system it is playing only one side. Which means if a guitar is playing on the left side you hear it on the left side. If it is playing on the right side you hear it on the right side. Now if you are in mono you either will not hear the guitar playing on the right side or the left side depending which mono signal you have correct? If that is the case how would you hear both the guitars on the left and right going down the middle. Sounds more like wired out of phase? Just saying or who knows I could be 100% wrong.


I was perplexed as well...and the more i thought about it, the more i think its not in mono, its just out of phase. I say this because i am not even sure the cleansweep would pass its checkpoints if it was in mono.

One way i thought it could have been wired in mono, is if they pulled speaker level inputs from only one side...as a short cut.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Not sure what the correct term is. I know that both the left and right side are being produced in each speaker. The guitar is going right down the middle. I think somehow the clean sweep was hooked up wrong and combined the signals into a new left and right which combined the stereo left and right. Doesnt the clean sweep combine signals somehow?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> Not sure what the correct term is. I know that both the left and right side are being produced in each speaker. The guitar is going right down the middle. I think somehow the clean sweep was hooked up wrong and combined the signals into a new left and right which combined the stereo left and right. Doesnt the clean sweep combine signals somehow?


take a minute and watch these videos...very very informative. This is 1 of 5 or 6...they are kind of short...and very well worth taking a minute to understand the cleensweep.

CleanSweep: Chapter 1 of 6 - YouTube


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Is it common for audio shops to not use any type of harness and cut into the factory wiring. Trying to figure out how I am going to get the new harness wired in, but they cut the wires of the head unit so close to the connector. Seems like just hooking up a harness to the head unit connector would be more logical, so if ever wanted to go back, its pretty much just plug and play....

They cut real close to the factory connector...

Something like this : http://www.jcwhitney.com/best-radio-wiring-harness/p2009335.jcwx?skuId=871881&filterid=d50736y2006j1 

To avoid this: 











Also, here are the pics of the damage to the rear console.


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## ShaneInMN (Sep 27, 2013)

I'd get those exposed wires taped up.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Are you kidding me? what a HACK job!!!


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> Are you kidding me? what a HACK job!!!


Totally not. I just want this thing over...waiting for a part from Acura that hasn't shipped. Cup Holder replacement....


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## PsyCLown (May 17, 2013)

WOW! That rear console, I would have a **** fit if someone did that to my car.

Did they try and mount the amp to the rear seat or something and did not think it would go through?

I hope they will be paying to have it replaced and sorted out?
If it were me I would want it ALL replaced, not just the cup holder but the leather too. I am anal about such things. Something as small as a single hole in that rear console can cause big issues when trying to sell it again.


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## bigscarymonster (Mar 29, 2012)

Twist connectors? Seriously? Who the hell let that guy work in their shop? Between the cup holder and that wiring job I wouldn't let them touch my car again. They really should also be replacing that cup holder for free.


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## spl152db (Dec 20, 2007)

bigscarymonster said:


> Twist connectors? Seriously? Who the hell let that guy work in their shop? Between the cup holder and that wiring job I wouldn't let them touch my car again. They really should also be replacing that cup holder for free.


those aren't twist connetors, they're crimp connectors.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> Totally not. I just want this thing over...waiting for a part from Acura that hasn't shipped. Cup Holder replacement....


i'm talking about the console screw holes

As fort he harness...i would solder new leads on to it.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Are installers usually employees or contractors?


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> Totally not. I just want this thing over...waiting for a part from Acura that hasn't shipped. Cup Holder replacement....


I would make them pay for the whole arm rest.


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## rdubbs (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm shocked at those screw holes... It looks like they just couldn't get the right placement of the amp and screwed it a couple times, I guess test fitting wasn't considered or thought of.


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

OK, I can understand someone young and inexperienced hacking up the OEM wiring loom (I can think of a few people I know who've done this) but for a professional outfit to do this... I mean come on, surely they could've got the harness adapter. Granted there wasn't much if any profit to be made on this install but in my opinion that doesn't excuse shoddy workmanship. As for the damage to the interior, it's things like these that spoil it for the real professionals. Of course we're only hearing the OPs side of the story, but it doesn't look good for whoever did the install.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

rdubbs said:


> I'm shocked at those screw holes... It looks like they just couldn't get the right placement of the amp and screwed it a couple times, I guess test fitting wasn't considered or thought of.


why would you ever screw and amp to an armrest in the first place? As i said...hack job.


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## rdubbs (Sep 26, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> why would you ever screw and amp to an armrest in the first place? As i said...hack job.


I can see them trying to mount the amp in the trunk against the back seat, but clearly the installer wasn't considering what was on the other side of the rear seat and the length of screws. 

I don't disagree that it's a hack job but I can understand how it happened. How this shop managed that, I don't know but I've seen some DIY'ers make that mistake although they realized the problem with the 1st screw so there was only 1 hole instead of 6.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

rdubbs said:


> I can see them trying to mount the amp in the trunk against the back seat, but clearly the installer wasn't considering what was on the other side of the rear seat and the length of screws.
> 
> I don't disagree that it's a hack job but I can understand how it happened. How this shop managed that, I don't know but I've seen some DIY'ers make that mistake although they realized the problem with the 1st screw so there was only 1 hole instead of 6.


He probably just didn't think of the center console....Is the wiring hack as well? Seems like a harness would be in stock for that...or should be...


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## caraudioworld (Sep 18, 2013)

haha I said in an earlier post that you maybe shoud delete the name of the shop (if you include it somewhere) to avoid spread the bad publicity, haha dont worry about that, the shop deserve the bad publicity completly!

Save you some frustration, ask them for some money in exchange of the terrible work and go another place, if they let the car go with holes in the armrest, mono, bad wiring, etc... they need to be out of bussinessss


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## THEDUKE (Aug 25, 2008)

This is where a T harness comes into place. You cannot use a regular harness, because you still have to plug it into the OEM radio. T harness = more dollars out of shops profit, which is my guess why they did not use one.


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## sannitig (Aug 23, 2013)

Wow just wow!! Hope it works out for you bud.


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## fireball (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow, that is ridiculously bad! This certainly did not come out of any type of professional shop. Pretty sure the 16-year-old at Best Buy on day one could do better work than this, provided it was after lunch.

Hope they end up taking care of you in the end. I haven't read through the entire thread so maybe you already tried to do this, but I would try and get my money, the cost of replacement OEM parts and get the heck out of there.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

THEDUKE said:


> This is where a T harness comes into place. You cannot use a regular harness, because you still have to plug it into the OEM radio. T harness = more dollars out of shops profit, which is my guess why they did not use one.


I am assuming they just don't keep them in stock. I see a ton of these on ebay, etc. The acura has a harness that goes from the hu into the factory amp. All they need to do is unplug from the factory amp, plug into a harness...then you have your wires. Don't see why they would need a T harness.

Even if they decide to just cut into the factory wires before the connector.....leave room in the connector side in case you want to rewire and go back stock.

Cliffnotes.....no harness....cut close to connector....mono sound....drilled holes...tons of noise.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

I am considering not taking it back and demanding a refund....however...going to give them another try to make it right. With exact instructions on how I want it installed.


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## bigscarymonster (Mar 29, 2012)

spl152db said:


> those aren't twist connetors, they're crimp connectors.


Ah, looking at it on an ipad. Looked like twisters


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

Seeing the pictures now I'd say you've gotten screwed my friend. Those wires behind the head unit could have been cut way farther back to allow room to reconnect... 
The screw holes though, that is what you call custom! You're lucky to have gotten that kind of extra work so cheap! 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

The Performer said:


> Seeing the pictures now I'd say you've gotten screwed my friend. Those wires behind the head unit could have been cut way farther back to allow room to reconnect...
> The screw holes though, that is what you call custom! You're lucky to have gotten that kind of extra work so cheap!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Yea...I am on tilt about it. They are going to have to figure out how to rewire it. Just so upsetting this whole experience..and now I have to take it back. Should I demand a new armrest? They are $260. Can the holes in the leather be repaired.

Then when I talked to him last time..I told him I have a harness that has balanced outputs. He says my amp ( Kenwood xr900-5) has balanced inputs. I can not find one thing online or in the manual that says it has it. I even asked "are you sure". OH yea yea...

Its like everything they done is wrong, I try and give him a chance...and he says that..


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## Schizm (Jun 12, 2011)

Don't let this shop touch your car again man!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

moneyfornothing said:


> Yea...I am on tilt about it. They are going to have to figure out how to rewire it. Just so upsetting this whole experience..and now I have to take it back. Should I demand a new armrest? They are $260. Can the holes in the leather be repaired.
> 
> Then when I talked to him last time..I told him I have a harness that has balanced outputs. He says my amp ( Kenwood xr900-5) has balanced inputs. I can not find one thing online or in the manual that says it has it. I even asked "are you sure". OH yea yea...
> 
> Its like everything they done is wrong, I try and give him a chance...and he says that..


i would want to be made whole...you deserve to have a new armrest, and a new harness and your money back for the hackjob they did.

and i would not let them touch my car unless you are allowed to watch them.


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## sannitig (Aug 23, 2013)

Sound Suggestions said:


> ^ says the guy that has a thread with "not happy with the end result"
> 
> Bottom line; shops should just say "no" to installing other online unauthorized product purchases
> 
> ...


Yes I was not happy and that WAS their fault. They don't know how to tune. With many threads and all the help from every one on here the internet I able learn needed be done I am more than happy now.

A shop is a seller and an installer, they should skilled at both aspects of their job and be able produce quality results, otherwise close their business since they are professionals.

Too many "professionals" are deflecting blame now a days and not taking responsibility for their workmanship, or lack there of.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I own a business that is modeled similarly to that of a car stereo shop, I have a plumbing business. I often run into very similar situations where I talk to clients about replacing fixtures and spend time quoting them prices just to end up with them buying their own online and us installing them for them. As a professional I still need to do the best job I can on the installation whether I'm making money on the materials or not. I have a reputation to uphold and I want my clients to spread the word about what a good job we do whether we make money on the materials or not. And if we do not do a good job the first time we go back and make it right. I hope they do that for you too, OP.


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## Wja96 (Jan 14, 2013)

When I first started reading this thread I had very little sympathy for the OP. I have used a specialist shop/store to install my audio kit in my last 5 cars and every time I go in I KNOW I can get the bits cheaper online. There is a constant stream of people coming in and asking what they should buy for [insert issue here] and how much it will cost to have it installed. Then they politely say thanks and leave. Two things annoy me about this. Firstly, I feel for my local store as 99.9% of these people will just buy the suggested part off the 'net and try and fit it themselves and secondly, I have to wait to be served while listening to someone asking about a £30 AUX input lead for a 10-year old Japanese car that was never designed to take an iPod connection. My last install (where most of the equipment was taken from my previous car) was £2000 and they had the car for almost 4 weeks as they wanted to fit it in between other jobs to keep the cost down as much as possible. 

If my store recommended something and they supplied the equipment and it didn't work properly I would expect them to make it work properly within the originally quoted price. If they made some recommendations and I bought it all elsewhere and brought it to them to install, if they then installed it and it didn't work as expected because they missed something from the original suggestion then I reckon that's down to me because I cheapskated the deal.

I also thought that the installer notes were a bit "internet expert" in that the OP instructed them to install the parts they were supplying when the OP patently couldn't install them themselves (not able to remove the cupholder, so stripping a dashboard could be a long-shot) but were quite happy to tell the installer what to do. I NEVER tell my installer how to do his job. I pay him for his skills. I listen to his suggestions, if necessary do my research then go back and query why he has suggested something. We then agree what will be done and he does it. If he comes across a challenge or issue he phones me with the proposed solution and I only ask one question - " Is that the right/best way to do it" at which point he usually gives me three options - the quick and dirty way (and he won't do it), the cheapest solution that will work properly and the best way to do it. And I take my pick from the latter two. So I have to say at that point I had absolutely no sympathy at all for the OP. 

However, when I saw the drill-holes in the upholstery my viewpoint shifted 180-degrees and I would want that completely sorted out or I would just call the credit card company and stop the payment. That's shocking. I'm assuming that damage genuinely was done by the installer and on that basis they wouldn't ever touch one of my cars!


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Wja96 said:


> When I first started reading this thread I had very little sympathy for the OP. I have used a specialist shop/store to install my audio kit in my last 5 cars and every time I go in I KNOW I can get the bits cheaper online. There is a constant stream of people coming in and asking what they should buy for [insert issue here] and how much it will cost to have it installed. Then they politely say thanks and leave. Two things annoy me about this. Firstly, I feel for my local store as 99.9% of these people will just buy the suggested part off the 'net and try and fit it themselves and secondly, I have to wait to be served while listening to someone asking about a £30 AUX input lead for a 10-year old Japanese car that was never designed to take an iPod connection. My last install (where most of the equipment was taken from my previous car) was £2000 and they had the car for almost 4 weeks as they wanted to fit it in between other jobs to keep the cost down as much as possible.
> 
> If my store recommended something and they supplied the equipment and it didn't work properly I would expect them to make it work properly within the originally quoted price. If they made some recommendations and I bought it all elsewhere and brought it to them to install, if they then installed it and it didn't work as expected because they missed something from the original suggestion then I reckon that's down to me because I cheapskated the deal.
> 
> ...


I am glad you shifted views due to the cup holder. However, don't forget the system is also wired in mono (neither balance or fader works), and there is a ton of noise in the system. It should not ever matter where I bought the items. I used to own a computer repair business. If a client brought in parts, I still did the absolute best I could do, and if something they brought would not work, then I would call them during the install and inform them "this isn't going to work, you need this and this". I would never hook up something that wasn't going to work because " I cheapskated the deal". I call BS on that. Somehow there is a common thread through this thread that because I bought the parts online, its almost like I deserved the crappy sound because , as you said, it is "down to me". 

Fact is, I am going to tell the installer exactly what to do now. I don't trust them. He still, after all of this, tried to tell me the amp I have has balanced differential inputs, although all of my research and the owners manual says different. Nothing this shop has done leads me to believe my car is in good hands. But again, "no sympathy for the OP", because, well, I bought the equipment, HE RECOMMENDED online. I guess I deserved a stereo that sounds like an AM Radio....

Cliffnotes : even if the cup holder wasn't damaged, and the wires off the head unit were cut from about 2 inches away from the connector, the fact is, it still sounds like an AM radio, and has nothing to do with buying the parts online.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

The best way to know for certain if the amp has balanced inputs or not is to call the manufacturers tech support. I've called JL several times and they're very helpful, hopefully your amps manufacturer is good too.


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

Golden Ear said:


> The best way to know for certain if the amp has balanced inputs or not is to call the manufacturers tech support. I've called JL several times and they're very helpful, hopefully your amps manufacturer is good too.


Op, stick an ohm meter on the rca inputs of your amp and that will tell you what inputs you are working with. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Wja96 (Jan 14, 2013)

moneyfornothing said:


> I am glad you shifted views due to the cup holder...


I obviously explained myself badly. I will try again.

You asked for advice in the audio store.

They gave you some advice. That advice may, in retrospect, have been wrong. The parts they suggested may not actually work properly without some other parts, or ever work properly at all.

Based on that advice you bought the parts online.

You then paid the installer to install them.

The install doesn't work as you expected it to.

I think those facts are clear-cut.

IF (and it's only IF) you had placed the order for the parts with the store then I would have expected the store to correct the error at their cost (not excusing the clearly shoddy installation work).

However, as you did not pay for the advice, and chose to buy the components at a discount online, you have no recourse in my opinion with the store about why the parts do not work together. Bear in mind that the store owner is still insisting that the amplifier has balanced inputs and you believe it doesn't. It may well have been an honest mistake on the part of the store owner and as you didn't pay for the advice (either through the parts or a direct consultancy fee) you bear all the responsibility for buying what you did. 

The store fitted the parts for you and they don't work as you expected. That may or may not be the results of the poor advice or the poor installation, or a combination of both and unfortunately, in my opinion, it's down to you to prove it was the installation as you decided to buy the bits without checking that they do indeed work as you wanted them to.

So that's why I have no sympathy with you on that score. You took free advice, you bought stuff you didn't really understand and couldn't install yourself, and when it all went bad you blamed the person who initially specified the system. That seems unfair as I'm sure you don't give free computer advice. I certainly don't do anything for nothing professionally. Free advice is worthless.

All that said, the install was clearly amateurish and you shouldn't pay for it.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Wja96 said:


> I obviously explained myself badly. I will try again.
> 
> You asked for advice in the audio store.
> 
> ...


I am over it. Called the guy this morning to reschedule...of course, he hasn't called back. Just called back, and he went to lunch. Real good customer service there.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Golden Ear said:


> The best way to know for certain if the amp has balanced inputs or not is to call the manufacturers tech support. I've called JL several times and they're very helpful, hopefully your amps manufacturer is good too.


Yea, just called and verified with Kenwood. Not balanced.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

I am on the verge of doing it myself....Just need to rewire the stock connector at the head unit, and then plug it into the harness....remove the old amp, and hook up the new amp....

If its still in mono, then its obviously the wires from the amp to the stock speaker wires.

Then I call them, and just ask for the armrest to be replaced at $260.00 and be done with this. 

I used to do this way back in the day....with electrical tape and everything.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Just noticed all the noise in the system only occurs when the engine is running....not sure what that means...


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## sannitig (Aug 23, 2013)

Wja96 said:


> The store fitted the parts for you and they don't work as you expected. That may or may not be the results of the poor advice or the poor installation, or a combination of both and unfortunately, in my opinion, it's down to you to prove it was the installation as you decided to buy the bits without checking that they do indeed work as you wanted them to.
> 
> So that's why I have no sympathy with you on that score. You took free advice, you bought stuff you didn't really understand and couldn't install yourself, and when it all went bad you blamed the person who initially specified the system. That seems unfair as I'm sure you don't give free computer advice. I certainly don't do anything for nothing professionally. Free advice is worthless.


I can't believe this non-professional mentality exists. 

I worked with my installer and told him what I was buying and brought him forum links to read because special things were needed with my Saab.

I made it clear that I was purchasing online cause I wanted to save money (over 100%) and the my installers probably didn't like that but they are installers, they install. Sure the owner does the sales, but there are two parts to their business. I would like to use one part of their business because the other 50% of their business model does not fit my needs. I am the paying customer so it's completely my decision and they have an obligation to refuse the work if they feel they are not skilled enough to complete it. Or they can charge a little more to cover for any incidences. 

Basically you take the job all the way or you don't. There's no in between. Do or do not... there is no try. Don't be lazy and don't do half-assed work.

They are professionals. Professional car audio salesmen and professional car audio installers.

If you can't stand behind your work or your word, you're running a bad business. This applies to any business except con-artists.


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## sannitig (Aug 23, 2013)

moneyfornothing said:


> Just noticed all the noise in the system only occurs when the engine is running....not sure what that means...


Sounds like engine feed back...this seems to happen to a number of people.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Taking the car back in on the 8th.....long time, but oh well. I will post an update after the fact. Going to stay away from the thread till then. Give the guy a chance to make good.


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## Wja96 (Jan 14, 2013)

sannitig said:


> I can't believe this non-professional mentality exists.
> 
> I worked with my installer and told him what I was buying and brought him forum links to read because special things were needed with my Saab.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is any difference in our opinions at all. 

Where I take exception with the OP is his desire to get the recommendation of equipment for free. He keeps banging on about how the store owner recommended something and it doesn't work and now he wants to moan about it. Sorry, but i disagree. If you don't pay, you have no right of redress.

You will note that I agree completely that the bit he PAID for, he should feel very aggrieved about and definitely the store should sort that completely, whether by fixing it themselves or paying for someone else to do it.

As such, I think we agree totally.

By definition, a professional is someone who gets paid. An amateur or hobbyist does it for free. A professional attitude should reflect the fact that one is being paid to do something. If you get something for nothing, expect it to be amateurish, no?


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## sannitig (Aug 23, 2013)

Wja96 said:


> I don't think there is any difference in our opinions at all.
> 
> Where I take exception with the OP is his desire to get the recommendation of equipment for free. He keeps banging on about how the store owner recommended something and it doesn't work and now he wants to moan about it. Sorry, but i disagree. If you don't pay, you have no right of redress.
> 
> ...


Not really. A professional (IMO) is someone who is highly skilled in their line of work. If you get pad for something but aren't very good at it, you're not a professional. That's my argument. The fact that a true professional would have all angles covered and a job well done. These guys were definitely NOT professionals, they just got paid to do something. You should be able to approach a professional and get advice from them regarding their field of work and they will know what they're talking about, but an amateur will give you the wrong info. These guys were amateurs posing as professionals.

We're basically on the same page but have different views.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the problem of defining an audio shop, today, as relative to what is in the past.


there is no "installer's side" and "salesman's side" in an audio shop, if the shop depends on profit generation from both to survive.

when you cut out the salesman's fee, it's the same light bill and salaries that get cut into, and dividing it because you don't believe you're supposed to pay, and cut one side off by buying online, doesn't change that simple fact.

now, if you have an installer who you know that works without a shop or expenses, and you provide the space, tools, and product yourself, you're not dealing with a place that has a soundboard and a front door to darken.

that's different, but where do you find those "installers," except on message boards or through word of mouth, where there's no guarantee except "oh yeah, my cousin says he does great work" or whatever. That's the "fly by night" principle in action, or at least possibly in action.

it does the industry no particular harm when you buy online and go ask a shop to install, after you've gotten their 'advice' on what to buy to complete a system, but it does harm the reputation of all shops who have to give their time and brainpower time and again, when paying customers are also "in the shop" looking for some tunes.

I think this idea of separation of services, ends with warranty and guarantee of quality issues, anyway.

you paid for the shop experience, but you cut out the shop's profit margin on the product side, yet you demand the shop's guarantee of quality, you demand warranty and you demand satisfaction. The shop might owe you that, ethically but you make the distinction there are two sides. When one side doesn't own up, the whole shop is responsible. The shop didn't make that distinction.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

As I said earlier, they need to make it clear that there is an install discount when buying in the store. That way they can cover themselves when they make zero dollars on the sales side. You can't run a business by just being there to complete the transactions, you have to manage the whole thing.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the salesman's side, is the pimp.

the installer's side, is the ho.

you want a good outcome, so you don't piss off the pimp, when you're with the ho.


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## Biff85ta (Sep 23, 2011)

cajunner said:


> the problem of defining an audio shop, today, as relative to what is in the past.
> 
> 
> there is no "installer's side" and "salesman's side" in an audio shop, if the shop depends on profit generation from both to survive.
> ...


In any other automotive shop labor is where you make your money. If they took the job it should be done right. There is no way in the current internet age market that shops are not living off of what the can make off of the labor. This whole thread is the reason I would rather forgo warranty on car audio and install it myself if shop install is required for it.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Biff85ta said:


> In any other automotive shop labor is where you make your money. If they took the job it should be done right. There is no way in the current internet age market that shops are not living off of what the can make off of the labor. This whole thread is the reason I would rather forgo warranty on car audio and install it myself if shop install is required for it.


any other automotive labor?

you mean a mechanic, probably. In an upholsterer's shop, you buy retail and the shop marks up the fabric and the foam.

In a paint shop, they charge up for the paint, the supplies, the thinners etc. 

In a body shop, they charge up for the replacement parts, they make a percentage of profit on the sale of the parts.

I am pretty sure that if you walk into any of those types of shops and say "what you got? oh, it's 3.99. I can get it for 1.09 on the internet, then I'll bring it here for you to install it" they won't warranty the work, probably.

you can find cheap replacement anything, but businesses that make that labor bill almost always have a way to add profit off of the materials part of the sale.

just because it "makes sense" to the person doing the buying that they should be able to cheap the store out and save their cash, the shop isn't looking at you as a "top tier" customer either.

you're the in-between guy, the one that comes in looking for deals and is just as likely to try and scam you, as the thief that comes in through the window.


the top tier guy goes in, takes the salesman's advice, buys at a premium and gets top tier service after the sale as well as a careful install.


the internet savvy guy, not so much.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> the problem of defining an audio shop, today, as relative to what is in the past.
> 
> 
> there is no "installer's side" and "salesman's side" in an audio shop, if the shop depends on profit generation from both to survive.
> ...












This guy gets it. 

This is why there will be no install shops open in 10 years, and the only place to get things installed will be one of two driveways: the craigslist installer or your own.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

my tire guy doesn't like it when I go around him and pick up a set of Duelers for the same thing he charges Mastercraft, then tell him to shoe up the car with the tires I bring in.

but he gets his on the labor side, and if he damages the bead on one out of spite, he knows I'm not coming back to get his labor anymore.

the problem is that someone goes into a shop knowing he's going to buy cheap product online, but needs to be informed what to buy as if that isn't part of the "getting a stereo experience," as if the guys in the shop don't eat from the same pot- installer to sales to owner.

sometimes you get the owner doing the install after selling you on the equipment, and that isn't always great either. Maybe the owner isn't a people person, maybe the installer is a tweak and the OCD makes him better at nailing the incidentals, maybe the sales guy knows his demographic and upsells you a level or two in the source unit, knowing you'd have wasted your money on the basic model because you won't be satisfied.

getting what you want out of a shop isn't always cut and dry, sometimes it's all mangled up and you have to trust people to do their job, then pay the man.


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## Biff85ta (Sep 23, 2011)

cajunner said:


> you're the in-between guy, the one that comes in looking for deals and is just as likely to try and scam you, as the thief that comes in through the window.


I made no personal attacks on anyone and comparing me to a thief because I choose to shop smart with my money and do my own labor is a bit much.

I promise you however without the labor costs all of the shops you listed would be broke fairly quickly. 

While you may indeed purchase the materials the at the upholster you are paying him far more for what he can do.

The same with the body man. Yes he has mark ups on the paint and other assorted goods they are a small piece of the puzzle.

If you want something very specific most body and upholstery shops will allow you to bring it in and will work with it.

What I am trying to say here is that the shop could have said no we won't install gear you did not purchase here. I would not have faulted them for that.

They did not they took the job. If you agree to do the job you do it right and not hack up things. It is part of being an ethical business. You can't just hack up peoples stuff because the bill isn't enough money.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

They sell "prepaid install cards" at various reputable online stores where they sell the amps/stereo/speakers/good stuff. For fun I actually typed in my zip code and some addresses of local installers point to driveways/houses on the maps! Some are buildings/businesses (car audio stores).


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Biff85ta said:


> In any other automotive shop labor is where you make your money. If they took the job it should be done right. There is no way in the current internet age market that shops are not living off of what the can make off of the labor. This whole thread is the reason I would rather forgo warranty on car audio and install it myself if shop install is required for it.


I was the machinist/engine builder at an auto rebuilder for almost a decade, and that industry is experiencing the exact same downfall as the stereo installers. 

We would mark up the cost of all the parts to rebuild an engine on top of the labor rate on pulling the old engine, the machine work, rebuilding it, and installing it. The profit on the parts accounted for way more than the shop's labor rate. 

Customers started to complain about the price of a motor job being high, so they would start buying their own engine parts off of ebay and bringing them in. The majority of the time, they brought in the wrong parts or the parts they brought in were of such low quality that they would need machine work before we could even use them. That's a fast recipe to lose money on a job, so we'd offer a bare minimum "get you back on the road" deal which was just fix/replace the one broken engine part and overhaul (which means reusing old worn out parts) the rest. They were told about the conditions. No warranty. Yet, they would still bring it back in a fit of rage a year later when the engine would break again because of their unrealistic expectations. It got to the point that almost all motor jobs ended up being overhaul specials because people were not willing to pay for new engine parts nor the machine work to make sure everything would work properly yet they would expect it to be on the same level as a new engine. We told them and it was their decision to approve of it, they just refused to acknowledge it.

Then, the used engine market blossomed and customers were now able to go out and buy their own low mileage used engine with a 90 day warranty from a junkyard for less than the cost of parts for us to rebuild their old one. So, as you can expect our shop literally closed down the machine shop and became strictly a used engine installer. I was literally out of a job. 

I think a lot of sales+service industries are in a transitional period right now. Customers refuse to buy new parts through them, so they aren't making any money and will soon realize that their only options are to either offer only labor services or shut down completely.

This is kinda why it upsets me any time I hear about someone who undercuts a shop's sales by buying online to save a few bucks with unrealistic expectations, and then cry when the service and end product aren't on the same level as if you would have bought the items from the shop. Shoddy workmanship - that is a whole different issue and I agree that there is no excuse for that... but only paying for a certain level of service and expecting top tier service is just an unreal expectation.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

All you guys that are trying to define this as a seller side/installer side issue are totally missing the point. 

I do not believe for a second that the install would have turned out any different if the OP had bought the gear from the shop.

This is about a shop that totally screwed up an install..if it were me i would demand that the shop return the car to the exact place it was before it was touched, and refund me all of my money.

Then i would find a reputable shop to do a correct install.

In this case i feel the OP, while sure he has a ways to go with his "people skills" , is also being extremely patient and fair with the shop...more so than i would be.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Biff85ta said:


> I made no personal attacks on anyone and comparing me to a thief because I choose to shop smart with my money and do my own labor is a bit much.
> 
> I promise you however without the labor costs all of the shops you listed would be broke fairly quickly.
> 
> ...


I'm just presenting sides, not really involved here...

and I didn't compare "you" with a thief, just the generalizing at fault here. 

The internet allows people to circumvent the fair business model that used to provide a reasonable income for shops that thrived on good business practices and integrity.

Sometimes they get too big, and the owner's doing coke while shtupping the installer's girlfriend, or whatever.

Sometimes they are only capable of generating a small income because the owner is leaving out that portion of the population, to prey upon when it comes up, maybe the integrity cuts off enough income stream that the business flounders?

But for those that did survive before the internet for decades, who struck a happy medium of taking retail money when nobody asks for a special, or talking people out of extra equipment because it's unnecessary, or whatever the circumstances warranted, they are no longer in the same seas, fighting other shops for their existence, they are fighting an unseen villain deemed the World Wide Web.


this has to be understood, that the shop that does your labor is also surviving on the sales of each year's new editions, and they have to sell to keep the line, the same line you went and bought on the cheap for last year's overstock online, or they don't get to keep the line.


the person you are honoring with the sale, is a trans-shipper who doesn't worry about contracts or guarantees, sometimes even warranties.

and the guy you want to walk in their shop, pick their brains on a few occasions, and then have do preemo work for a deal, you try to shank with your online price quotes.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> All you guys that are trying to define this as a seller side/installer side issue are totally missing the point.


I'll agree that there is no excuse for shoddy workmanship. However, the shop/installer doesn't really sound top tier and I think the issue is with OP's expectations. 

If you go to a low budget place and do not pay for a high level of service, you will simply get what you paid for. It can all be summed up in a 4 word phrase - "What did you expect?" If you buy some nice wheels for your car, are you going to risk getting them scratched by the run down tire shop in the ghetto just to save a few bucks on mounting/balancing?

OP even said he had his doubts with the owner before he had the install done! Getting a job done at a place you are skeptical about and crying when the end result isn't what you expect.... no sympathy from me.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> All you guys that are trying to define this as a seller side/installer side issue are totally missing the point.
> 
> I do not believe for a second that the install would have turned out any different if the OP had bought the gear from the shop.
> 
> ...


this is about a shop, whose installer totally screwed up an install.

I believe the install would have been more carefully managed had the equipment been bought there, and the 400 dollars of "savings" by buying online, having gone to the price of the entire job, it would have been different.

I've been in shops where the owner says to the installer, "look, this guy's bringing in some equipment, don't spend a lot of time because you've got 2 house jobs coming in this afternoon" and the installer junks the install, good enough but not the same work as when they are doing their own product.


and I understood the reasons behind it, it's not right to give someone the same level of care that doesn't pay for it, this is luxury goods, car audio isn't emergency care...

so you get tiers.

I used to despise the idea of not being able to save by doing "homework" and getting cheaper pricing online or off clearance tables, but I get it as I get older. There is such a thing as getting what you pay for, and in this case the guy got a cheaper installation because that's what he paid for.

I know, it's not right, lol...


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

cajunner said:


> this is about a shop, whose installer totally screwed up an install.
> 
> I believe the install would have been more carefully managed had the equipment been bought there, and the 400 dollars of "savings" by buying online, having gone to the price of the entire job, it would have been different.
> 
> ...



i hear what you are saying...and to a point the concept is correct.

But a low tier "bang it out" install, no matter how little time and effort is allocated for it, should not involve screws the the armrest and incorrect wiring.

Sure i would understand if they cut corners on things...but not when the hacked up the car. To me that goes more to the skill of the installer than the management of the company.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> i hear what you are saying...and to a point the concept is correct.
> 
> But a low tier "bang it out" install, no matter how little time and effort is allocated for it, should not involve screws the the armrest and incorrect wiring.
> 
> Sure i would understand if they cut corners on things...but not when the hacked up the car. To me that goes more to the skill of the installer than the management of the company.


agreed.

putting screw holes into the leather, screwing amps into seat backs, gutting factory harnesses, getting the channels mixed up, etc. is not what I'd call part of an installation.

unless it was done on purpose as a lesson, but that's not the kind of lesson you want your customer base to know you by.

and it being aired on the worldwide, surely must be upsetting to the previously oblivious shop owner who will probably lose business as a result of one seriously botched job.

gotta live up to the new, I guess.

I know I've been had before, buying at retail. I've never really paid too much for labor, though.


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## Biff85ta (Sep 23, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I used to despise the idea of not being able to save by doing "homework" and getting cheaper pricing online or off clearance tables, but I get it as I get older. There is such a thing as getting what you pay for, and in this case the guy got a cheaper installation because that's what he paid for.
> 
> I know, it's not right, lol...


I think I understand where you are coming from here.You are talking about the realities as opposed to what should happen.

I have been known to shop around to every shop near me just to feel them out. I will actually be returning to one of them when I have the spare cash to buy what we discussed and possibly more because he didn't B.S. me or try to sell me more than I wanted. I was just in the area and had some time to kill but the owners response to me gave me a feeling he was not just trying to dig into my pocket. He is an hour away from me and he will be getting my business when I have to drive past three other shops to get to him.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

hurrication said:


> This guy gets it.
> 
> This is why there will be no install shops open in 10 years, and the only place to get things installed will be one of two driveways: the craigslist installer or your own.


I don't agree. Look at shops like SIS and JT Audio, they're busy as can be because they do exceptional work and they're not always making money on the equipment they're installing.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Biff85ta said:


> I think I understand where you are coming from here.You are talking about the realities as opposed to what should happen.
> 
> I have been known to shop around to every shop near me just to feel them out. I will actually be returning to one of them when I have the spare cash to buy what we discussed and possibly more because he didn't B.S. me or try to sell me more than I wanted. I was just in the area and had some time to kill but the owners response to me gave me a feeling he was not just trying to dig into my pocket. He is an hour away from me and he will be getting my business when I have to drive past three other shops to get to him.


ever go shopping for jewelry, at bona fide jewelry shops?

not just the mall guys, but the little mom and pop ones?

haha...

I totally understand how you are sensitive to the situation of being sold on something, and in that process make a determination that one place is demonstrably better than another, based on things other than the build logs and trophies behind the counter.


some places that have excellent, intuitive, empathic sales people may shoot themselves in the foot if the owner can't budge on margins, and trust their sales people to deliver a profit, by judging their return profile. 

like, if they will return, the repeat business qualifies that first deal as a necessary business expense, the mild loss of coming off of MAP to a place between internet and MAP prices, means more money to the shop later on.


I think the reason places like SIS thrive in a failing market, is there is never an unhappy customer, there are no hours of "this one? or that one?" at a soundboard, instead the word of mouth leads knowledgeable customers to a place where they know that impeccable detail and results are virtually a guarantee.


and they back it up on the internet, it's hard to beat down or get angry at a place that has several happy build logs and customers in the WWW, because the reason for the impropriety just might be the customer.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Golden Ear said:


> I don't agree. Look at shops like SIS and JT Audio, they're busy as can be because they do exceptional work and they're not always making money on the equipment they're installing.


They do top tier work that attracts a different client base than a local brick/mortar store that sells entry level gear and does basic installs for cheapskate customers.


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## Biff85ta (Sep 23, 2011)

cajunner said:


> ever go shopping for jewelry, at bona fide jewelry shops?
> 
> not just the mall guys, but the little mom and pop ones?
> 
> haha...


Thankfully my wife does not care for jewelry and so I have not had that experience. My wife would prefer a convertible to an expensive ring. :laugh:


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Biff85ta said:


> Thankfully my wife does not care for jewelry and so I have not had that experience. My wife would prefer a convertible to an expensive ring. :laugh:


well, a convertible then.


being sold, going through that process, is a study in human sociology that everyone should be allowed to experience. Especially for luxury status items, and what is considered perhaps, frivolous or excessive at some rational level.

just learning about car audio on forums and then being treated like a piece of meat at your local audio shop, where the grace and interplay between social animals is near non-existent, you miss out on the subtleties of the buyer seller relationship.

it's little wonder, armed with the knowledge that balanced inputs is the key to killing noise issues, one is quick to disparage a shop because they can't confirm their factory harness adapter will mate with a random amp to produce the quietness, when balanced, differential inputs may mean more than one thing, it may have more than one parameter or definition in the round.

sure, the answer seems obvious but the truth is, 98% of installs should not need differential, or balanced inputs at the line level, and noise is a tell-tale sign of something amiss in the wiring or defective at the component level.

the facts are obscured when the process of elimination gets turned into a game of "how quick can we get this customer out of our install bay" and something gets overlooked, or worse, the customer is made to pay for more install time to ensure the profit lost on the product sale side is made up for in the install bay.

I can't see this case of install mayhem as anything less than planned return and billed hours logic, why else would a shop allow their installer to make so many fundamentally wrong decisions in the course of a middle of the road install?

Unless the installer is so green, the shop owner wasn't clued in, or they just turn the cheap online buyers to that one installer because the better installers in the shop devote themselves to the customers who buy the "shop experience" and pay for all of it, I don't see the reasoning.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Just dropped off the car to the shop. I did purchase a sub from him as well. Single 10 JBL.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

You're logic is broken my friend. Please explain to me how (from a shops perspective), this situation is any different than any shlub walking in with parts in hand (without talking to them prior) and asking for a proper installation?
The shop is supposed to be the "expert". If something is missing or would not work properly- they should KNOW that and advise as such. Any shop worth its salt doesn't just take pieces and say "sure, lets just throw them in the car without any regard for how or if they will work".

And another thing...it's commonplace for most consumers to shop for the best equipment price. If you have a problem with the shop not making profit on the equipment, that's just fine. But their expertise is not in sales, it's in installation. Perhaps they should be charging more to offset that difference instead of complaining about consumers being smart with their money. 







Wja96 said:


> I obviously explained myself badly. I will try again.
> 
> You asked for advice in the audio store.
> 
> ...


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

hurrication said:


> This guy gets it.
> 
> This is why there will be no install shops open in 10 years, and the only place to get things installed will be one of two driveways: the craigslist installer or your own.





schmiddr2 said:


> As I said earlier, they need to make it clear that there is an install discount when buying in the store. That way they can cover themselves when they make zero dollars on the sales side. You can't run a business by just being there to complete the transactions, you have to manage the whole thing.



No, THIS guy gets it ^^

If you're relying on consumers to pay more to the B&M for the same product they can get cheaper online it's going to be a long wait. Shops will get some "convenience sales" (The "I want it today so I'm willing to pay a little premium for that availability) and they will get some (likely fewer) loyalty sales from customers. But by and large, if you're a B&M you can't count on retail sales to be a significant portion of your sales portfolio. Where a shop should focus their efforts is on the things the average Joe CAN'T do- IE installation. If they want to increase sales volume of product, they should do exactly as Schmiddr said above. Create incentives to buy from the shop with discounted installation labor/parts and other techniques. This helps to keep both the equipment sale and install in house. Margins on product will obviously be slim so _volume_ will drive lower cost to the dealer through dealer discounts. It's a win win. Sell more equipment (better than no equipment) and as a result get more installation dollars out of it which is where the higher profit margins come in.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Even those of us that can do some install sometimes don't want to do it ourselves. That's because a small project suddenly becomes a large project, and we'll have to break/run out to look for even more small parts or tools lol. Sometimes we really just want to sign a check and get done with it.

Anyways there's a store in town named Audio Express. Every time I pass by there, I have to laugh because their sign says they're the "home of $1 install"!! They're actually everywhere (multiple locations/states). Well, we know they make money from the sale of components and basically install it almost free, plus whatever parts needed. I looked at their install bay people and they look pretty sharp/friendly. The last I was there they were installing some fancy stuff into somebody's boat and that was a really nice and loud boat!! (Probably more than $1 install cost.)


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> No, THIS guy gets it ^^
> 
> If you're relying on consumers to pay more to the B&M for the same product they can get cheaper online it's going to be a long wait. Shops will get some "convenience sales" (The "I want it today so I'm willing to pay a little premium for that availability) and they will get some (likely fewer) loyalty sales from customers. But by and large, if you're a B&M you can't count on retail sales to be a significant portion of your sales portfolio. Where a shop should focus their efforts is on the things the average Joe CAN'T do- IE installation. If they want to increase sales volume of product, they should do exactly as Schmiddr said above. Create incentives to buy from the shop with discounted installation labor/parts and other techniques. This helps to keep both the equipment sale and install in house. Margins on product will obviously be slim so _volume_ will drive lower cost to the dealer through dealer discounts. It's a win win. Sell more equipment (better than no equipment) and as a result get more installation dollars out of it which is where the higher profit margins come in.


makes sense but I have to say that turning a retail store into an install bay is not exactly the business model most dealers want, and what has happened to most small shops that are still around.

the progression has been thus (from my observations, not an exact science):

the store had working capital at one point, buys some premium lines, several "no problem" lines, and some junk brands. starting out money buys the soundboard build, the carpets and the interior design, it's a nice place.

install side is big enough for a little volume, usually and is stocked with starting money for parts, it's not bad.

things progressed, the sales force gets pushy, the installers get shorted on pay, the owner needs to make up money somewhere so he hits everywhere.

the sales floor becomes cluttered, dirty, because the owner loses talented staff and hacks are hired for their low cost options.

they can't afford the premium line, or meet their standards, so it gets hacked up and the "no problems" lines become the 'premium' and the shop drops a bit
in prestige. soon, the decent quality of incidentals that make the mark-up, become typical offshore bulk garbage that they now overcharge for, and the same with the components.

stock in the install side is low, several installs a month are hit with the "come back with an unfinished install next week when we call you that the parts are in" and sales takes a hit, because we're dealing with a discretionary goods situation.

the soundboard dies, (not much useful in demos) the sales area is truncated to a counter filled with "clearance" which is short for 'sold and removed' ie, unpaid invoices, and the general effect when walking into the place, is that of a neglect.

eventually the owner understands, after being in a run of bad luck, they need to close the business.

what does this have to do with this thread, you ask?

it's the progression that used to be the model, without internet interference.

with internet, you have a hurdle that even big box retailer set-ups, can't sustain or produce a winning solution.

so volume isn't the silver bullet here, I think educating the customer that they buy the whole shop experience, or they install it themselves, or they pay more to have it installed, is the thing.

You can't go into a shop, ask them prices on install, then come in with your own product and expect that to fly. 

That's what happened here, and you have to look at this relationship like a crime and victim scenario.

the concept goes, that the first person to commit wrongdoing, is responsible for the larger share of the blame.

the first person to screw up is the customer trying to get over on the shop, so if the shop screws that customer with a crap install or makes them buy extra, unnecessary product, or whatever, it's the first sin that is being overlooked.

I'm not saying people should just get fleeced in a disreputable establishment, but you can't "game" the system without repercussions, there is a price to pay for being a bad customer, even if you think you've done nothing wrong.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

cajunner said:


> You can't go into a shop, ask them prices on install, then come in with your own product and expect that to fly.
> 
> That's what happened here, and you have to look at this relationship like a crime and victim scenario.


Why? This is common practice at this point. Again, you can't fault the consumer for shopping around to save money on their product. If the dealer of said product can't match the price, than they need to be smart about their sales/install polices. Either "upcharge" for installation of goods not purchased from the store, or "discount" installation on goods purchased at their retail location. 
There is no crime and no victim. This is sales and business. B&M shop owners know what they are up against. If you think (as a shop owner) that you are going to put the bread on the table with retail sales, you're fooling yourself. Just ask the many that close their doors each year. The money in a shop is made in the install bay, plain and simple. 




cajunner said:


> the concept goes, that the first person to commit wrongdoing, is responsible for the larger share of the blame.
> 
> the first person to screw up is the customer trying to get over on the shop, so if the shop screws that customer with a crap install or makes them buy extra, unnecessary product, or whatever, it's the first sin that is being overlooked.


You're looking at this from a skewed perspective. The customer can choose to purchase whatever, wherever they want. The shop has the right to _charge_ whatever they want (assuming it's within the pricing guidelines of the brands they choose to sell). 
A customer is not "getting over" on a shop by making an informed decision and buying from the place they feel offers the best price/quality/guarantee, etc. If a shop then *chooses* (and that's key)to take on the install work regardless, they have no grounds for providing substandard work. They've set the price. It's not a tit for tat thing. You offer sales and you offer installation. Any shop that would degrade their quality in either based on a consumers decision to not use them for one or the other should not (IMO) be in business- period. 



cajunner said:


> I'm not saying people should just get fleeced in a disreputable establishment, but you can't "game" the system without repercussions, there is a price to pay for being a bad customer, even if you think you've done nothing wrong.


That's the problem though. The customer has not done something "wrong". Again, it's a business. Don't fault the consumer for buying lower and paying their fee for installation. Fault the B&M for not having a policy that rewards sales with reduced installation cost (or penalizes outside sales with higher install costs).

Example- Some restaurants allow you to bring your own bottle of wine. I might not like what you have on your menu. Or perhaps, I just know that I can get the same exact bottle on your menu at triple the markup for a mere $25 at my local liquor store. I'm an educated consumer saving myself some money. On the flip side, the restaurant then charges a "corking fee" to offset some of the loss on liquor sale. SAME principle. In this case it's a "penalty" for outside sale vs a perceived discount. 

I may feel bad for the B&M because they can't compete with the e-tailers on sales in most cases, but I can't fault a consumer for trying to keep more money in their pocket at the end of the day either. Know what I mean? And this is why it's so hard to run a successful car audio shop. You really need to have an excellent install gig going that brings in some higher end installs.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> Why? This is common practice at this point. Again, you can't fault the consumer for shopping around to save money on their product. If the dealer of said product can't match the price, than they need to be smart about their sales/install polices. Either "upcharge" for installation of goods not purchased from the store, or "discount" installation on goods purchased at their retail location.
> There is no crime and no victim. This is sales and business. B&M shop owners know what they are up against. If you think (as a shop owner) that you are going to put the bread on the table with retail sales, you're fooling yourself. Just ask the many that close their doors each year. The money in a shop is made in the install bay, plain and simple.
> 
> 
> ...


I think you missed it, though.

this thread is entirely from the customer's perspective, and we only know the information he provided.

from that information, he admits to going in, picking brains, getting an invoice of products (assuming at floor prices, and standard install rate/hours), then leaves.

he comes back in, with products purchased elsewhere, and says "I saved 400 bucks on the product by buying from a transshipping entity, and now I want you to install it for the quoted price"

so, you think that's right?

there's no mention of "install YOUR product, this much, install OUR product, that much"

and that's the wrinkle.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

and I have no affiliation with shops, I'm just in it for the argument.

this site is the diy site, and people here pride themselves on saving money by buying cheap and doing the work themselves.

so, my point that the shop "chose" to do the work for the quoted price, is a lot like trying to get a manufacturer to warranty an item that doesn't have a receipt.

the internet provides the ability to not pay sales tax, it provides the ability to steal copyrighted content, it provides the right to buy stuff that fell off a truck or stuff that went around a dealer/distributor relationship.

these are all "bad Andy's" and to say it's okay is just what most people do, they justify it as "the way it is" and "the customer has the right" when that is not the case.

it's an unscrupulous position, to do what the OP did to the B+M shop. You can't force the shop to charge 2 different rates for install, without looking like they are gouging.

The customer is naturally going to resist this, and go to the shop that doesn't have the 2 install price, or they are going to subvert the retail invoice with the justification that there are "2 sides, install and sales" to a shop.

there aren't.


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## DSMFAN (Jun 7, 2011)

I learned this lesson when I was 16. My truck needed a new clutch and the shop quoted me a price for parts and labor. When I brought them my own clutch that I got much cheaper the labor price went up. It blew my mind. My dad explained everything to me and now it's a question I ask when I'm in that situation.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

DSMFAN said:


> I learned this lesson when I was 16. My truck needed a new clutch and the shop quoted me a price for parts and labor. When I brought them my own clutch that I got much cheaper the labor price went up. It blew my mind. My dad explained everything to me and now it's a question I ask when I'm in that situation.


right, but you needed to know enough to ask.

the OP knew the quoted price, and he knew what he could save buying online.

the whole thread is premised on whether or not the OP realized that doing so, put him at odds with the shop.

he puts up defending arguments that there's an install side and a sales side.

I say there's not.

he then convolutes the retail invoice with an additional new cleansweep piece, saying that the shop tried to screw him by not telling him beforehand he would need it, and tries to hold the shop to the original invoice!

that is suspicious to me, allowing for a shop to adjust the install requirements is what you should expect within reasonable limits and that is a reasonable limit, to me.

the milk soured at that point, you can't think the shop didn't know that they were dealing with a customer that wasn't following the "good neighbor" principle, like when someone let go a shopping cart in a wind gust and a car ding happens, and someone screams to be made whole... and a call to the lawyer...

anyways.

that retail invoice is the cornerstone of a good shop's reputation, it's what you would use to pit one shop's bottom line against another in the normal economics of free market capitalism.

it's not a fiduciary instrument to abuse with online purchases, and claims that a shop tries to oversell, or subvert with separating the labor from the retail product price, based on the customer's need to save money.

And I surely understand how easy it is to justify it, I've done it myself on other retail items.

A jeweler that offers free sizing on a ring, isn't interested in giving you that service on someone else's product, and if you buy that same ring at another shop that's too big because the salesman suggested it was what you needed, and bring it in and try to hold the salesman accountable, haha..


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I think you are looking at this from a pretty one sided perspective. Yes, I think the OP demonstrated some poor judgement. And if I were in his shoes, I would have expected a higher labor rate when I came back with all of the equipment purchased elsewhere. 

That being said, the shop had the opportunity to A) re-quote the installation cost based on customer supplied equipment or B) refuse to do the install for the customer if he could not agree to A. Regardless of anything else that occurred prior to the installation, there is absolutely no excuse for the poor quality of the installation. Including a the attitude and actions of the customer. 

I guess I am fortunate in dealing with a couple of very good shops. One local, and one not so local. One I have purchased product from (at very fair prices) without ever paying for install work. Another I have had do fabrication work for me without ever purchasing product from him. 

I've even approached this second shop about purchasing certain product and giving him the chance to try and match an online price. He responded by saying there is no way he could match the price and encouraged me to pick it up online. More than anything, I appreciate business people who are "straight shooters." The actions by the proprietors of both of these shops will have earned my trust as a repeat customer whenever their products or services might meet my needs. Even if it might mean spending a few extra bucks.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I think you are looking at this from a pretty one sided perspective. Yes, I think the OP demonstrated some poor judgement. And if I were in his shoes, I would have expected a higher labor rate when I came back with all of the equipment purchased elsewhere.
> 
> That being said, the shop had the opportunity to A) re-quote the installation cost based on customer supplied equipment or B) refuse to do the install for the customer if he could not agree to A. Regardless of anything else that occurred prior to the installation, there is absolutely no excuse for the poor quality of the installation. Including a the attitude and actions of the customer.
> 
> ...


it is a little one-sided, there's an expectation that the old B+M model used to need to be met, but the internet changed that model not just for the consumer.

people don't realize that what helps their pocket hurts the shop, and any business minded person who wants the install business will say "I can't meet that price, you should jump on that" but what he's thinking is oh ****, another damn online cheap-out artiste.

the idea that the shop has to change their business model to accommodate the new influx of labor only installs, means they have to increase their rates to adjust for the profit margins being decreased.

then, the unsuspecting, un-savvy stereo buyer wanders in and asks why he's paying so high for install.

it's a catch-22, a non-winnable solution, because you scare off the retail buyer with the high prices and the online con man is always trying to throw you off your margins.

there's a line that gets crossed, if you intend to use the shop's retail parts, like the sound room to audition, the sales guy to make up your invoice, the dealer relationship for warranty, and the prestige of having the custom badge for your audio system, some people like to pay for "Unique Whips" license plates...

and then after all that, you skimp the local trusty dealer by buying gray market out of a warehouse.

it is a little one-sided, but it's the new wave of "I deserve to have this" attitude that I'm trying to assuage, it's not the old way and it's not the honorable way.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cajunner said:


> it is a little one-sided, there's an expectation that the old B+M model used to need to be met, but the internet changed that model not just for the consumer.
> 
> people don't realize that what helps their pocket hurts the shop, and any business minded person who wants the install business will say "I can't meet that price, you should jump on that" but what he's thinking is oh ****, another damn online cheap-out artiste.


Except I am not, and he knows it. It just so happens that the gear I have (all from authorized dealers) is stuff that he doesn't carry. He is one of the few shop owners that has treated me right from the first time I walked into his shop. And has actually learned enough about me to know that I am not someone knows what I want and if he has a service or product that I need, I will come to him. 

In this particular instance I was looking at an amp (not for my primary install) with some really good pricing online. I told him why I was there, that I was only considering making a purchase, and wanted to give him the chance to make the sale first. When his sale price was close to double, and the online price on the product was less than what he had to pay for it wholesale he was shocked. I showed him the price online and that is when he said if it was something I wanted, I should buy it from the online vendor. 



cajunner said:


> the idea that the shop has to change their business model to accommodate the new influx of labor only installs, means they have to increase their rates to adjust for the profit margins being decreased.
> 
> then, the unsuspecting, un-savvy stereo buyer wanders in and asks why he's paying so high for install.


That all depends on the competition. A good reputation and a solid portfolio can go a long way in convincing someone to use shop A over shop B. Especially when the majority of shops today (at least in my area) are lucky if their capable of installing a deck and four + or an amp and sub in a pre-fabbed enclosure. Not all install capabilities are the same, and I think that should be reflected in the price of an install. 



cajunner said:


> it's a catch-22, a non-winnable solution, because you scare off the retail buyer with the high prices and the online con man is always trying to throw you off your margins.
> 
> there's a line that gets crossed, if you intend to use the shop's retail parts, like the sound room to audition, the sales guy to make up your invoice, the dealer relationship for warranty, and the prestige of having the custom badge for your audio system, some people like to pay for "Unique Whips" license plates...
> 
> and then after all that, you skimp the local trusty dealer by buying gray market out of a warehouse.


More and more I see fewer shops with sound/audition rooms. Three of the four shops in my area I would consider using have zero audition room. The "go to" shop for most people in town have an audition/sales room that is an absolute joke. It might look pretty at first glance, but have the gear doesn't work or is disconnected. And with them there is only one price, MSRP. 

And what dealer in their right mind is going to work with you on warranty work if you can't provide proof of purchase from them or another authorized dealer? 

I'm not sure what your point is about shop "prestige" and Unique Whips license plates? 

I also think there is a bad assumption that we all have "trusty" dealers available to us. Take a look around the industry. There are some truly exceptional shops out there. You know why I say that? Because they are the *exception*, not the rule. The vast majority of shops in my region are a mess. From their street front, to their show room, to their sales people, to their installer. Certainly not the kind of place I would send my mother if she needed an alarm installed. Heck, some are so shady I would be a little nervous walking into them. (And I have spend my fair share of time growing up on the "wrongs side of the tracks.") 

it is a little one-sided, but it's the new wave of "I deserve to have this" attitude that I'm trying to assuage, it's not the old way and it's not the honorable way.[/QUOTE]

The "I deserve to have this" attitude works both ways. You can't apply it to one side of the dealer/customer equation and not the other. In the end, no matter who maintains that sort of attitude the industry as a whole fails.


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## 82cj8 (Jan 21, 2011)

Regardless of where something is bought if a consumer is paying for a service they should get it done right.If the installer is not going to have the integrity to do it right then he should turn down the work.That goes for any type of business.When a person brings in something for me to fix ,I take pride in fixing it right regardless of the bid amount.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Except I am not, and he knows it. It just so happens that the gear I have (all from authorized dealers) is stuff that he doesn't carry. He is one of the few shop owners that has treated me right from the first time I walked into his shop. And has actually learned enough about me to know that I am not someone knows what I want and if he has a service or product that I need, I will come to him.
> 
> In this particular instance I was looking at an amp (not for my primary install) with some really good pricing online. I told him why I was there, that I was only considering making a purchase, and wanted to give him the chance to make the sale first. When his sale price was close to double, and the online price on the product was less than what he had to pay for it wholesale he was shocked. I showed him the price online and that is when he said if it was something I wanted, I should buy it from the online vendor.
> 
> ...


good post.

that covers a lot of the back and forth available, not sure what's left to wrestle.

how people come to their own decisions about their own dealers and install options, is up to them.

I'm just remembering a time when there was a relationship that allowed the customer to trust the dealer, and the dealer made a profit that worked for his business model.

today it's not the same, and it's not really better unless you like installing your own gear...

(me, haha)


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I think it all comes down to the fact that the internet has lifted the veil from a lot of people's eyes in all sorts of industries. For better or worse, *this* is the new reality. As consumers and as businesses we must come to terms with it and learn to work within the new norms.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

if by veil, you mean the buyer/seller relationship and how much money goes into the dealer's pocket from your pocket, then yes the veil moved, but if anyone really thought about it back when, it was always there. You heard about 300% mark-ups in the jewelry industry and car audio being 100%, and it didn't matter because that was the price, if you wanted it you paid it.

Now, the price is whatever the internet will bear, the internet being the hammer nailing the lid on the car stereo retail business coffin, and the internet is nameless, online is faceless, blameless...

but not so fast, because we have manufacturers who help their dealers trying to protect their business relationships and people say "those brands are too expensive" as a result, but is it maybe our judgment has shifted due to the sheer availability of product online, and we expect we should be able to get any brand at a reduced MSRP, because Al Gore made the internet?

In a way, I'm glad that we can come here and express or impress, a judgment on a shop's not-so-winning ways, but I sometimes think we've stuck a chip on our shoulder for all the times we've been over-charged, for all the times we've read about or saw someone overpay for poor work, or were worked over as a rube by unethical people.

we're shooting ourselves in the foot when we leave all the brick and mortars out of the equation on the retail side, and expect to be able to go somewhere and audition product. It's destroying the whole industry from the inside out, if CES is the only place left to see "diamonds in the flesh" and we're all making purchasing decisions from the internet etailer's digital photo menus.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

cajunner said:


> the internet provides the ability to not pay sales tax, it provides the ability to steal copyrighted content, it provides the right to buy stuff that fell off a truck or stuff that went around a dealer/distributor relationship.
> 
> these are all "bad Andy's" and to say it's okay is just what most people do, they justify it as "the way it is" and "the customer has the right" when that is not the case.
> 
> ...


I disagree. It's not unscrupulous for a shop to do this. The items being brought in are an unknown quantity and therefore have more risk involved.

The customer DOES have the right-and the ability, to get the goods at a reduced price, which is exactly why they do. Take a step back for a second and totally remove the "installation" portion from the equation. 
A B&M shop is selling an amplifier that an e-tailer is selling for 15% less. Is the consumer doing something wrong by choosing to save money and purchase it online?
My point is this: A B&M's value is in it's experience. Amplifiers and equipment sell themselves and most consumers know what they want before even walking into these places. What the consumer _needs_ is someone experienced to install it. If a shop is relying on retail sales to survive, it's a broken model.
The fundamental problem with all of this (and we're seeing a lot of this now) is that you end up getting to a point where the shop is just and install depot with limited to no stock and in many cases no way for you to demo product before you buy it.
Personally, I don;t have a problem buying from a B&M and actually prefer it provided I'm given a _fair_ price. I think the ability to have an actual face to do business with and to provide service and support when needed adds value to the product.


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## DSMFAN (Jun 7, 2011)

Ultimately it was a cheap lessened learned by the OP. I'm sure he won't be shopping there again. 

Some shops will charge more for installation when you bring in your own gear, some won't. It's a good question for consumers to ask or info retailers to offer up. 

I had a large system installed in my Tundra, after I got the quote I price matched everything online. I showed him the prices and asked him what he could do. He came within $400 so I decided to get the stuff from him. It wasn't worth dealing with multiple online retailers, shipping and the chance of stuff being broken or defective.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> I disagree. It's not unscrupulous for a shop to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the OP is unscrupulous if he thinks he can walk into a retail establishment and change the business model to suit his ideas of commerce. Before the installer botched the install, the customer botched the purchase.



you can't step back and remove the install side of the business. That's not what a retail established brick and mortar does, it's not how they conduct their primary business. There are exceptions of course, but their bread and butter is people who adhere to the business model that has been around for decades before the internet arrived.




a consumer doesn't know what they want, they are "shopping" and that's the job of the sales side, to sell them. Maybe 10% of sales are by those educated enough to know what they want, the rest are there to buy or occasionally to learn, but saying they arrive ready to buy is probably farther from the reality.



it's a broken model if they don't do installs, but the shop making money on the product side is not only well-established, it's crucial to their bottom line, and whether they can keep a line or their doors even open.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

rton20s said:


> Except I am not, and he knows it. It just so happens that the gear I have (all from authorized dealers) is stuff that he doesn't carry. He is one of the few shop owners that has treated me right from the first time I walked into his shop. And has actually learned enough about me to know that I am not someone knows what I want and if he has a service or product that I need, I will come to him.
> 
> In this particular instance I was looking at an amp (not for my primary install) with some really good pricing online. I told him why I was there, that I was only considering making a purchase, and wanted to give him the chance to make the sale first. When his sale price was close to double, and the online price on the product was less than what he had to pay for it wholesale he was shocked. I showed him the price online and that is when he said if it was something I wanted, I should buy it from the online vendor.
> 
> ...


The "I deserve to have this" attitude works both ways. You can't apply it to one side of the dealer/customer equation and not the other. In the end, no matter who maintains that sort of attitude the industry as a whole fails.[/QUOTE]


Very well said.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

In my business I charge more for labor if they are providing the parts. I have no control over what they purchase or from who, so I factor that into problems I may encounter. Plus they will ask me to fix it regardless if it is the right thing or not. Although this rarely happens in my field, when it does, they get my full attention and they get to buy from who they want.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

cajunner said:


> the OP is unscrupulous if he thinks he can walk into a retail establishment and change the business model to suit his ideas of commerce. Before the installer botched the install, the customer botched the purchase.


I don't think anyone is walking into B&M's trying to change the industry. He's trying to get the most for his dollar. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on that. The customer botched NOTHING. He purchased where he got the best deal to him. Then the shop agreed to install his gear purchased elsewhere. 



cajunner said:


> you can't step back and remove the install side of the business. That's not what a retail established brick and mortar does, it's not how they conduct their primary business. There are exceptions of course, but their bread and butter is people who adhere to the business model that has been around for decades before the internet arrived.


I'm trying to get you to remove the "installation" from the equation to see the faulty logic. It's also faulty logic to assume that shops of today are running and flourishing under the same models of 20 years ago. This is the age of the internet and you evolve or your business dies. The B&M needs to find the right ways to capture profit in the NEW world. We may not like everything about it, but it's here to stay. To say that B&M's bread and butter are the business models of 20 years ago is exactly why so many are faileing or already gone.
I still maintain the customer did nothing wrong. You act as if the shop was forced to do the install work despite the fact that the OP purchased his gear elsewhere. This was their choice. 

You can blame the consumer if you wish, but times have changed and business is just conducted different now than it was then, for better or worse. It may not be a business as conducive to profit as it once was, but then again that's why it's a dying breed.




cajunner said:


> a consumer doesn't know what they want, they are "shopping" and that's the job of the sales side, to sell them. Maybe 10% of sales are by those educated enough to know what they want, the rest are there to buy or occasionally to learn, but saying they arrive ready to buy is probably farther from the reality.


I disagree here as well. In the age of the internet with resources, information, reviews, sites like this one...people are doing some research. It wouldn't make sense not to. Do you really believe that these days 90% of people walk in to B&M audio shops clueless??



cajunner said:


> it's a broken model if they don't do installs, but the shop making money on the product side is not only well-established, it's crucial to their bottom line, and whether they can keep a line or their doors even open.


I agree it can be crucial to keeping lines because some brands require certain sales volumes to be met. I'd venture a guess that if you asked multiple audio shops the percentages of net income they take in- sales vs install, you'd find that its extremely tilted to the installation side. The bottom line IS installation.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> I don't think anyone is walking into B&M's trying to change the industry. He's trying to get the most for his dollar. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on that. The customer botched NOTHING. He purchased where he got the best deal to him. Then the shop agreed to install his gear purchased elsewhere.
> 
> if you think you're going to outsmart your local shop because you picked up last year's product from an online liquidator/grey market operation at a cheap price, then yes, you are changing the business model and you are taking a segment of that shop's revenue away. The ability to move product is key in maintaining a healthy community presence and a crop of steady customers in the door. I've been in shops that were just storefronts with a counter, and I didn't go back because they didn't give me the retail experience I need. That model is untenable and is why you see so many shops closing. You can't win over a reluctant buyer with an empty soundboard and no stock in the store.
> 
> ...


and this is the crux, if you cut down the local shops to just install bays, the ability to buy certain lines is limited by the absence of the higher end stuff, I don't know about everyone else but I like going to a shop and listening to the flagships, even if I can't afford but second tier or worse.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

schmiddr2 said:


> In my business I charge more for labor if they are providing the parts. I have no control over what they purchase or from who, so I factor that into problems I may encounter. Plus they will ask me to fix it regardless if it is the right thing or not. Although this rarely happens in my field, when it does, they get my full attention and they get to buy from who they want.


Now this is a gent who would gain my business as I don't always want what the salesman is selling.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Well thanks. It's not car audio, but if you ever need industrial machine repair let me know.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^. Lol sadly my business is in the medical field, unless you can build me some more physicians to staff them with.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

There if far too much to quote, so I'll just pick it up right here. 

On the topic of a B&M not being successful without a quality retail storefront and soundboard, I don't buy it. From the outside looking in two of my "go to" shops have *ZERO* sales floor in the traditional sense of the word and continue to be quite successful. One of them, SiS, is very well known here on DIYMA and I would venture to guess that there are tons of B&Ms out there that would kill to have the success of their business model. And I certainly don't want to speak out of turn, but I seriously doubt that SiS would be what it is today without the B&M killing internet. 

The other "no sales floor" shop (which happens to be more local to me) hasn't had any sort or retail sales floor or demo board in probably 3+ years. While hasn't capitalized on the internet the way SiS has, he continues to be successful because of his reputation and the quality of his installs. When you enter the shop, you are at a sales counter that is completely open to the install bay. 

In terms of not considering a shop if they don't have the retail demo board, I don't buy that either. I have demoed or attempted to demo at multiple local shops on their boards. You know how many of them have received money from me? Not one. You know where I have had demos of products installed *IN CARS* and spent some money? Yeah, you guessed it. The two "no sales floor" shops I mentioned above. 

Would I like to be able to walk into a shop and see it, touch it, feel it, hear it on a board? Sure. But I think it is becoming less and less a factor for people these days. 

And one more thing... the topic of the "newb" who walks into the store blind. I've witnessed what happens to these people at a "reputable" local shop. The guy wanted a simple deck and 4 upgrade in his pickup. By the time he walked out he had a quote and an appt for install. The quote was for a bottom end Pioneer HU with A series coaxials installed (no amp) for well over $1000. So $300 MSRP for the gear and $700 for a deck and four install. But, that same customer would be the bad guy if he went online and bought the same gear for 33% off.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

The difference is, SiS has NEVER had a storefront and until recently, nothing more than a homeowner's garage. Bing's intent was never to be a retailer, but an installer. That's a HUGE difference. 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

That might be so, but it is a model that works for them. And from all appearances quite successfully. And while people might consider SiS first and foremost as installers, it does not negate the fact that they are retailers as well. I have no idea what kind of numbers they are looking at, but just judging by their build logs and my own visits to their shop they do seem to move a pretty good volume of product. And none of it, would I consider low end.

Just thought I would add one more note...

For an install focused business, here is some proof of their business model on the retail side. SiS was named *Retailer* of the Year by Illusion Audio and Top 10 *Retailer* by Morel. I don't think manufacturers hand out those awards to shops that aren't moving product.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SIS is an anomaly, in internet terms.

because Bing stuck his work out there he became the internet build guy, on this site and although there are several others who do build logs and tutorials, the work Bing did over time being posted here, gave him the foothold in this place.

the truth is there is a limit to how many Bings this place will sustain, and using his model as the new benchmark is wrong because of the limits of this hobby. This is the biggest diy car audio site, as far as I know and the crop of customers in sunny California with discretionary income is very high, so there is a natural outcropping of traffic that heads to Bing's e-front door.

Saying to retailers "become the Bing," as a business model doesn't fly because there's only so many areas where the money and the internet converge in big enough numbers, and you see the pockets of affluence, with Houston and New York people here.

The internet has made the diy guy very happy but when he wants to be the "buy at the store" guy, it's chipped away at the retail end, and the elaborate sound rooms or boards of the nineties/late eighties, are replaced by dodgy rents, and stacks of product on the floor if the shop is lucky enough to carry inventory.

Maybe the successful business model is forcing the car audio purchaser to change, and getting what you want means looking into an online catalog and making an appt. What that really means is, the internet took away our retail model, that allowed people to develop a relationship with a person, and swapped it out for a rating system, "feedback" and social media controls. It's easier I guess, to look at numbers and say 97% feedback? That guy pisses off too many people to give my business... You don't have to discern whether someone's digging in your wallet with bad business practices, or have any judgmental process at all. The decision where and how to buy has been relegated to number crunching and the ones and zeros have won..


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

rton20s said:


> There if far too much to quote, so I'll just pick it up right here.
> 
> On the topic of a B&M not being successful without a quality retail storefront and soundboard, I don't buy it. From the outside looking in two of my "go to" shops have *ZERO* sales floor in the traditional sense of the word and continue to be quite successful. One of them, SiS, is very well known here on DIYMA and I would venture to guess that there are tons of B&Ms out there that would kill to have the success of their business model. And I certainly don't want to speak out of turn, but I seriously doubt that SiS would be what it is today without the B&M killing internet.
> 
> ...


What part of California are you from?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

My point wasn't really that everyone needs to be Bing (or Joey, or SiS). It was just that they have found a way to be successful in what some would call a post B&M era. Is the SiS model right for every market? I would agree with you and say absolutely not. Is it right for several markets here in the states? I would give that a cautious yes. SiS has a winning formula because of skill set, reputation, service, location, product and marketing. One that, quite honestly, would be difficult to duplicate. 

What I think we can all agree on is that the old B&M model of the 80s an 90s is no longer a formula for success. Heck, it wasn't a guaranteed success back then either. I watched plenty of shops come and go in the 90s. What is important for retailers/installers and manufacturers is to figure out how to build their own successful business model to best serve their demographic in the "new" internet era.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> What part of California are you from?


Visalia. 

I have been (as a customer or potential customer) to just about every single shop in Visalia, Fresno, Ventura and Sacramento. A couple in the bay area, Monterey Bay area and SoCal. I've spent much more time in some shops than others, obviously. 

And yes, if I am just there to check out the shop I let them know as soon as I am approached. If I am approached.

Here is a post I made about 8 months ago discussing the state of the local B&M Audio shops around me. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/147736-buy-local-%3D-buy-authorized.html


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Visalia.
> 
> I have been (as a customer or potential customer) to just about every single shop in Visalia, Fresno, Ventura and Sacramento. A couple in the bay area, Monterey Bay area and SoCal. I've spent much more time in some shops than others, obviously.
> 
> ...


Cool.:thumbsup: I actually remember reading that thread a while back. If you're ever back in the Bay Area, I'd love for you to stop by and give us some feedback. We are authorized, we have a demo board, and sell at pricing between internet and msrp.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> Cool.:thumbsup: I actually remember reading that thread a while back. If you're ever back in the Bay Area, I'd love for you to stop by and give us some feedback. We are authorized, we have a demo board, and sell at pricing between internet and msrp.


PM'd... 

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.


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## 12voltlife (Sep 24, 2013)

after reading through this thread I am left with only one conclusion. If you had come to my store listened to my presentation on gear and install and then decided not to buy from me on price but then asked me to install my suggestion, I would have to ask what I did wrong to not earn your business. ultimately though if a shop agrees to do an install then the work should be done to industry standard. and wiring a system in mono is unacceptable! I close my deals at about 80% and when customers ask me about pricing and the internet I tell them that every thing I sell is available for less on the net but I hope that my knowledge and experience is worth paying for the installers I work with are a minimum of 10 years and we check phase and tune every system to the best of our ability. most customers buy from us and the ones that don't get the same service in the shop.

now a word about business. a business runs on profit. the cost of a business that has a showroom and main street location verses a install shop run from a garage is very different if your a one man show or have paid staff all factor in. In 25 years I have worked for big box and small independents and making a profit on gear is very important to staying in business. 

some here say the model is changing and the shops have to change with the time and I don't disagree but the thing is you cant listen to that new speaker online you cant try or see the picture on that new head unit so some how the stores have to stay in business or the manufactures will have no representation in the market place on a very subjective product category. would you buy a speaker for $1000 with out hearing them first? I think most of the people on this forum are not typical customers and make informed decisions about what they are buying but the typical customer is looking for a demonstration and some advice from someone that has experience. 

just my 2 cents


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Some very good points. 



12voltlife said:


> would you buy a speaker for $1000 with out hearing them first?


No. But I wouldn't do it after only hearing them on a demo board, either.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

OK, went back. Had the harness put in, and installed an amp. I bought a sub from the guy as well. 

All is well. They didn't fix the armrest as I wanted. But the place is 30 minutes away from me, and the little holes are not that bad. Ill just get a leather patch repair kit one day and should fix it up. 

The system still had noise. But wasn't wired in mono anymore. They blamed the harness, and probably right, or for some reason, the amp wasn't working with the differential inputs. I spent all day on it. I eventually went to Best Buy and got a $15 ground loop isolator, which seemed to have work. There is a slight alternator whine now, but you really have to listen for it. Its much better than before...Just not sure why the shop didn't try one? 

Also noticed the front right speaker wasn't work. Took the door panel off, and found one of the wires came loose. Another two hours there. 

In the end, the guy made good. In the future, #1- find a place close to me....The real PITA was he was 30 minutes away, and dropping off and picking up was a pain. #2-probably purchase from the shop would be best. However, above all else, do tons of research online, and be more educated about everything. This was my fail.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

moneyfornothing said:


> This was my fail.


While I don't disagree, I think there is plenty of fail to go around in this scenario.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

rton20s said:


> While I don't disagree, I think there is plenty of fail to go around in this scenario.


I agree that this was a mess on both sides.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

It still doesn't sound like they did a good install...

1. ground loop isolators are for amateurs.
2. loose speaker wire? what no solder? see above..amateurs.
3. The made the holes in the leather...they should fix them.
4. No mention of how it sounds, so i assume it sounds Ok, but not great?

Care to mention the name of this shop?


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> It still doesn't sound like they did a good install...
> 
> 1. ground loop isolators are for amateurs.
> 2. loose speaker wire? what no solder? see above..amateurs.
> ...


No solder. I think that may be a bit much. But if that is the current standard. It sounds ok. Not much they could do. Factory HU to amp to speakers. I'm thinking a processor at some point but for now just gonna chill on it all. 

Name of shop is in the thread near the 1st page.

Also the ground loop isolator was only thing I could get to resolve the issue. I spent all day. What's the shop gonna do? They would cut back into the wiring harness to rca's which with the Acura's is hard to do and get clean signal. Or they would use LOC's off the speaker wires. . Somehow the amp didn't seem to be handling the balanced rca's. Didn't want to replace an amp or keep screwing with it.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

miniSQ said:


> It still doesn't sound like they did a good install...
> 
> 1. ground loop isolators are for amateurs.
> 2. loose speaker wire? what no solder? see above..amateurs.
> ...


I agree with everything but #2. I have NEVER soldered a speaker wire and I never will. Not soldering doesn't make you an amateur.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

miniSQ said:


> It still doesn't sound like they did a good install...
> 
> 1. ground loop isolators are for amateurs.
> 2. loose speaker wire? what no solder? see above..amateurs.
> ...


I agree on every point. I wouldn't settle for that.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> I agree with everything but #2. I have NEVER soldered a speaker wire and I never will. Not soldering doesn't make you an amateur.


I should have been more clear, Not soldering, AND making a connection that slips off is amateur. 

soldering is not mandatory, if you have the properly sized slide on, and you run your wire in a way that it is stable.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

Plus they didn't fix the armrest. Still has small holes. The installer said to bring it back and he would take care of it. 

However, I wanted it taken care of that day....Its a hassle to bring it back. 

Going to call on Monday and try and get a free upgrade to the 2x10 box. He said I could bring back the 1x10 box and pay the difference. I think with me having to fix the loose wire, and the fact they didn't fix the armrest, give me the upgrade and call it good.

Plus, why didn't they try a ground loop isolator? Just seems like they would try it...Yea, I know you shouldn't need it, but it has worked perfectly to get rid of the noise. I spent a day trying to resolve the issue and went to Best Buy and got my own. 

So, I think a free upgrade to the 2x10 box is in order...


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

You sound pretty adamant about the "upgrade". It's not up to you to tell them what you "deserve" from the problems you've experienced. I would ask them what they think is fair compensation for your time, hassle, and damage. But be calm and try to work with them. They don't expect to have you back as a customer and you have already put a negative review online of them, so that may be something they consider when making amends. And them not giving you a 2x10 box is not likely to make people think less of them.

I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy, just trying to give an unbias perspective.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The shop has done a horrible job. And we all know this because you put it up online. 

You second guess them and attempt to "fix" their screw ups at every step. If I were you, I wouldn't expect them to do anything else for you beyond making the system right. Their problems, their cost. Correcting your fixes, your cost. 

Honestly, you're getting to the point that you're lucky they even let you walk in the door.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

rton20s said:


> The shop has done a horrible job. And we all know this because you put it up online.
> 
> You second guess them and attempt to "fix" their screw ups at every step. If I were you, I wouldn't expect them to do anything else for you beyond making the system right. Their problems, their cost. Correcting your fixes, your cost.
> 
> Honestly, you're getting to the poin. Tthat you're lucky they even let you walk in the door.


Jeez.....they drilled holes in armrest....but I am lucky. They wired my system in mono but it's my fault somehow. Today the amp fell off the backseat. The door speaker wasn't wired on the right hand side. They promised to fix the armrest, they didnt. They are the experts, yet I had to go to Best buy and fix horrible noise. But let's not second guess them. Let's roll around with a system that sounds like an am radio with holes in my armrest and a speaker not hooked up and let the amp dangle on the back of the seat....Yea second guessing them would be dumb. They clearly did a great job....


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Yet, you continue to go back for more punishment? You can look back at my posts in this thread if you want to see where I stand on the situation. However, if you have taken it back to them to be corrected and you are still having all of these problems from your last post, it is time to cut your losses. Not go back to pay more money and have them do more substandard work. The shop obviously is not capable of doing quality work. 

Find yourself another reputable shop that actually does good work and pay them what it takes to make your system right. The only reason you should contact the original shop is to have them *REPLACE* your arm rest.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

/thread


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

rton20s said:


> Yet, you continue to go back for more punishment? You can look back at my posts in this thread if you want to see where I stand on the situation. However, if you have taken it back to them to be corrected and you are still having all of these problems from your last post, it is time to cut your losses. Not go back to pay more money and have them do more substandard work. The shop obviously is not capable of doing quality work.
> 
> Find yourself another reputable shop that actually does good work and pay them what it takes to make your system right. The only reason you should contact the original shop is to have them *REPLACE* your arm rest.


Fair enough. Actually not sure if I want the 2x10's. The one sub is kicking pretty hard. The armrest isn't really bad actually. They cup holder was replaced. I can prob repair it with a leather repair kit. I'm about over it and just gonna enjoy the stereo for a while. For all its worth, it does sound good now. Once I put the ground loop isolator, fixed the noise issue and sounds good. Need a processor now....


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Why do you need a processor now?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> Why do you need a processor now?


because the ground loop isolator is knocking out the ends of the spectrum?

I don't believe I'd accept a ground loop isolator as the means to the end of noise control, personally.

It's ridiculous that he's getting noise, it's 2014 and noise issues should be pretty solvable without resorting to the crude fix that an isolator presents.


although, as long as he's happy, it's just the icing on the cake that this thread represents.

if that shop valued their online integrity one iota, they would insist on getting the noise issues right without putting an isolator in the signal path and do all the work towards that end for free.

some people scare easily with regards to the online rep dramas, and some don't apparently.


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## moneyfornothing (Dec 11, 2013)

cajunner said:


> because the ground loop isolator is knocking out the ends of the spectrum?
> 
> I don't believe I'd accept a ground loop isolator as the means to the end of noise control, personally.
> 
> ...


I ab'd with the isolator and without and couldn't really tell much a difference and my ear is decent. I'm happy with how it sounds, but would be nice to fine tune it some more, but I am going to run with it for a while. Just bought a bed so my budget is shot now..lol. 

In the shops defense, it's probably the harness, or the amp isn't grounding out the noise from the balanced rca's. I think it's the mercman harness. Maybe I'll get the harness maker to send me another one to try when I start tinkering with the stereo again. 

Hooking up to the Acura's HU is a pita. There are threads related to the subject and noise issues are the main culprit. The shop would probably just say you need an aftermarket HU.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

moneyfornothing said:


> I ab'd with the isolator and without and couldn't really tell much a difference and my ear is decent. I'm happy with how it sounds, but would be nice to fine tune it some more, but I am going to run with it for a while. Just bought a bed so my budget is shot now..lol.
> 
> In the shops defense, it's probably the harness, or the amp isn't grounding out the noise from the balanced rca's. I think it's the mercman harness. Maybe I'll get the harness maker to send me another one to try when I start tinkering with the stereo again.
> 
> Hooking up to the Acura's HU is a pita. There are threads related to the subject and noise issues are the main culprit. The shop would probably just say you need an aftermarket HU.


if all the drama is related to a defective harness that would be something, huh?

other than the other assorted bits, like screws through the leather and amps falling off, wires coming off, etc.

someone should have double checked the wiring before installing the harness, methinks.

but I wouldn't leave an isolator in the chain, that's just wrong.

and I don't know what Acura puts in their cars that make the issues but that sounds like a problem with a common answer, that just hasn't surfaced yet.


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