# Time alignment help



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Hey guys, sorry in advance if I'm posting in the wrong sub forum but looking for a little confirmation with what I'm listening for when tweaking the time alignment settings. I've never heard an aligned system myself so just been playing with the settings to find what sounds best and still need more tweaking but looking to see if I'm even on the right track.

So far with the balance and fader set to centre and playing with time alignment alone I've managed to have the staging sound fairly balanced and centred rather than the driver side overpowering the passenger side, is this close to the desired result people look to achieve when setting it up? 
I've read a tutorial or 2 but had trouble putting them to practice to just set by ear listening to music.

It's being set from a clarion cz702 and delays appear to be applied in cm rather than ms and contrary to what I originally thought the values entered seem to delay the chosen speaker by the selected distance rather than entering how far each speaker is from the driver.

Any feedback would be great on the topic since I've kind of got no clue what I'm listening for and seem to now be under the assumption that left/right balance without fading them is good?


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

how did you enter your delay times. Was it by measuring the speaker distances relative to your listening position, then doing the math?

Or did you start with the delays at 0 and just adjust while listening?


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Tonight I did it purely by ear, the clarion manual was very vague on what the input values are meant to correspond to and I probably had it wrong when I measured and put them in the first time, sounds better with the current setting but will be remeasuring and trying that way again tomorrow knowing the distance is how much a speaker is delayed by.

Right now I'm just trying to find out and confirm that balanced sound without a fader is a positive result when adjusting t/a


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Make sure the main phase/polarity is alright between pairs and then overall. Make your driver distance measurements and run them on the convenient tracerite website to get the delays. Grab a test CD with the centred voice track, centred left/right and left/right. Adjust in pairs initially to fine tune. As for levels, I just adjusted as necessary for rew to show the same spl for each midrange and tweeter.

I had difficulty aligning my tweeters as they are only good for 4500hz and up, very hard to listen to


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Good tip, it was hard to mess with listening to songs that continuously swept from left to right, I'll try find a centred test track on YouTube when I can to double check when I'm done


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ixyzgsaba4fnqb/Disc 2 (Testing & Verification).rar?dl=0

(I do not claim ownership of this test cd)


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks for the link mate


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Or, you could play a dual mono test tone, meaning the same tone at the same time going to the left and right, not sure what freq. to say to use, let me think about that one for a sec, but maybe you could play the tone, flip the polarity of one of the speakers, adjust time for maximum cancellation, then flip polarity back for maximum summation? (Admittedly, I use measurement equip at work to do this, so this is just a theory, I've never applied this method), I would say use a tone that has wave length at least 2x greater than the distance in question? Maybe? I'm sure someone on here will tell us if that makes sense or not.

Edit: the same tone at the same time going to the 2 speakers in question, doesn't necessarily have to be "left and "right"


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

I spent a little time doing some more playing this morning, re measured the distances for reference and put them in again, surprisingly not that big a difference between setting by ear but does seem slightly more zeroed in so I suppose now I'll stick to close to that, maybe adjusting each speaker a little bit either way until I'm satisfied. Pretty much thinking I'll play within a 10cm range of the measurements for a little more fine tuning with the measurements taken as a rough reference then set around that area to what sounds best.

Is it true what people say about aligning tweeters though? I'm imagining there's some truth to it as when I play with the setting on them it's almost unnoticeable when compared to the mids.


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Alex92 said:


> I spent a little time doing some more playing this morning, re measured the distances for reference and put them in again, surprisingly not that big a difference between setting by ear but does seem slightly more zeroed in so I suppose now I'll stick to close to that, maybe adjusting each speaker a little bit either way until I'm satisfied. Pretty much thinking I'll play within a 10cm range of the measurements for a little more fine tuning with the measurements taken as a rough reference then set around that area to what sounds best.
> 
> Is it true what people say about aligning tweeters though? I'm imagining there's some truth to it as when I play with the setting on them it's almost unnoticeable when compared to the mids.


The tweeters you're talking about, if (and I'm sure they are) they are a part of a 2 or 3'way system that includes the mids, then you should definitely delay align them so that you don't get a huge notch at crossover. If you only align your mids, but leave your tweets at zero, then the crossover isn't gonna work properly.


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks man, I've just gotten around to switching the lot to active today, 2 way front plus sub, mids align beautifully but the tweeters are a lot harder to pinpoint, wondering if I should put an independent fader/balance control on the tweeters to level them a bit better


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

There's definitely gonna be other people here who are MUCH better at setting by ear alone. By "independent fader/balance", do to mean post amplification, like an L-pad? That would work...........what kind of amp are you running? Deck doing all the processing?


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

It's a clarion cz702 deck doing the processing, running a set of older type x ref speakers off a pdx 4.150. By the volume control I mentioned I meant just running a little rca attenuators module inline with the right tweeter, pretty much so I can try level match the tweeters separate to the mids as the head unit doesn't allow that


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Update, did manage to find centre point on the tweeters, static through the radio was actually really helpful pinpointing the image and hearing the very slight changes and harmonics when sweeping past the centre alignment point. Mids had a larger range of about 7 clicks when sweeping the delay so that was easier to find, the tweeters were very very picky, there was 1 exact centre point, one increment in delay either way past that point was just barely noticeable. Also helped noticing the alignment between the mid and tweet, little harder to notice but I finally found it, hoping that it's the last time I have to fiddle with that setting.


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

First off, I see so many folks trying to time align their system using the sub as zero.

If it turns out that you can't get things to couple, and your sub needs negative correction, we obviously can't send that signal into the future....

So, as a matter of compliance and laziness, I recommend starting out with about 5ms delay on the sub and then work your front end...

This will make life much easier if you find yourself in a situation where your front end is staging great but the sub isn't coupling...

After-all, it's much easier to adjust the sub delay than to chase the sub with six other channels, isn't it?


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah I know what you mean mate, once I figured which way to set the alignment settings I delayed the front stage about an extra 50cm further from the rear so I have the flexibility of being able to have some room to move the delay both ways when setting the sub like a floating zero. As you said we can't advance or send the signal into the future so yeah that's the idea


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Just use the tape measure. Unless the frequency response is almost perfectly matched between left and right, differences in level between left and right will cause you to use delay to address a level problem.

Use the tape measure. Use the tape measure. Use the tape measure. 

Then EQ.


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Just use the tape measure. Unless the frequency response is almost perfectly matched between left and right, differences in level between left and right will cause you to use delay to address a level problem.
> 
> Use the tape measure. Use the tape measure. Use the tape measure.
> 
> Then EQ.


I'm confused, I guess... Should I be doing all of my time correction with a tape measure now? This is getting way too technical for me...

Andy, do you offer a special audio time correction tuning tape measure marked in milliseconds? That would be awesome... The trademark of Frog Tape is already taken though...


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

XSIV SPL said:


> First off, I see so many folks trying to time align their system using the sub as zero.
> 
> If it turns out that you can't get things to couple, and your sub needs negative correction, we obviously can't send that signal into the future....
> 
> ...


I can and do agree the same can be said about each speaker output level as well. Allowing for some positive adjustments is always a great idea.


Now just a suggestion, of course if you have one, a laser measure IMHO is a crap ton easier then a tape measure and I'm sure it could be designed to read out ms as well. Not that it's very hard to convert in/cm into ms.


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

I don't know hey, I found the tape measure did help get roughly in the ballpark then fine tuning by ear worked out the best for me, the reason I started this thread was because at first I was doing it all wrong thanks to clarion having a very vague description in their manual, once I finally realised I was applying the delays the wrong way it finally struck what to listen for, took some time as its my first time but feel I've finally got the front stage spot on. I do wish my head unit allowed level control over each channel but sadly only does in pairs.

I also agree it makes sense to instead of using the sub as a reference point to delay the closest speaker near as much as possible as the reference, should allow more flexibility that way if the sub location were to change.


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Alex92 said:


> I don't know hey, I found the tape measure did help get roughly in the ballpark then fine tuning by ear worked out the best for me, the reason I started this thread was because at first I was doing it all wrong thanks to clarion having a very vague description in their manual, once I finally realised I was applying the delays the wrong way it finally struck what to listen for, took some time as its my first time but feel I've finally got the front stage spot on. I do wish my head unit allowed level control over each channel but sadly only does in pairs.
> 
> I also agree it makes sense to instead of using the sub as a reference point to delay the closest speaker near as much as possible as the reference, should allow more flexibility that way if the sub location were to change.


I guess I was jumping a step... YES, the tape measure is a great place to start, but it's been so long since I've used a tape measure that I've all but forgotten about the first steps of time-alignment... You DO indeed need a broad view before you can refine it...

Tape measures are fine, as a starting point... But then you need to couple frequencies, nothing is better than the human ear


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

So I've just read a thread or 2 regarding centre of the stage, such a shame I'll need to create another preset for judging with centre of the dash. So much more satisfying with it located in front even if the width suffers, can't stand the feel of the sound being biased like that


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Having the center directly in front of you sounds good in theory, but it's very problematic when the right side of the stage is huge and spacious, and the left side is 2" wide. There are a lot of recordings that really suffer from this sort of setup. Having the center of the stage in the center of the car ends up being much more enjoyable long term. It's far more realistic and pleasing, it just sounds like you're a few feet from center stage, which is better than having no left stage at all.


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

I have noticed the driver side seems compressed as you mentioned along with the other things, odds are I'll save one preset for centre at steering wheel and one for middle of dash and switch between every so often as my preference may change with what I'm listening to. Centre at steering wheel is brilliant for listening to Hamish and andy on the radio haha


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Ok, so I'm asking a serious question here, when a person sets delays for all drivers to arrive at same time with mic, or point of measurement, or whatever, at the drivers head, then does that put the center at the steering wheel, or dash? 

The last tuning I did, I set delays for drivers seat, and it sounded great, and I did 2 presets, one for drivers seat, one for between the seats, the drivers seat preset was WAYYY better, listening from the drivers seat anyway.

I thought mic at drivers position would put the center right in front of driver, but then like gijoe said, that would seem to create problems in a lot of scenarios. So, what's the deal with that?


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Alex92 said:


> It's being set from a clarion cz702 and delays appear to be applied in cm rather than ms and contrary to what I originally thought the values entered seem to delay the chosen speaker by the selected distance rather than entering how far each speaker is from the driver.


cm = in / 0.39370
measure the distance in inches from each driver to your head, divide each measurement by 0.39370 to get centimeters, enter the values into the head unit,,,, All done.

Example: selected speaker is 36 inches from your head, 36 / 0.39370 = 91.44cm rounded off to 91cm


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Well, since we humans can place a properly aligned center above the center of the dash in an automobile (offset as it is), and gain the experience of full width, it makes perfect sense that we should attempt to achieve a full stage width even though corrected to the driver seat position and seemingly presented as offset. What other option do we have? This isn't home audio, where you can align everything to a point directly in-between your monitors...

If one were to attempt to achieve a completely symmetrical sound stage centered in front of the observer in a car, they might as well not even begin.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

I don't bother with L/R time alignment, the sub is 7 ft behind me so the only thing i will do is delay the entire front stage about 3.5ms and call it a day..


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

gstokes said:


> I don't bother with L/R time alignment, the sub is 7 ft behind me so the only thing i will do is delay the entire front stage about 3.5ms and call it a day..


In that case, there is probably much unrealized potential in your system which has yet to be enjoyed or appreciated...


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

XSIV SPL said:


> In that case, there is probably much unrealized potential in your system which has yet to be enjoyed or appreciated...



I'll second that, just hearing the image/stage move across the front as you fiddle with the alignment setting is great


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Adjusting the delays for distance puts the center directly in between the right and left speakers. That's in the center of the dash.

Most of us in the aftermarket prefer this and it's where the competition organizations require it. Some of the carmakers and suppliers to the carmakers try to give each passenger their own center. That leaves the near side really small and the far side really big. I hate that. 

The placement of center depends on two things--that the sound from the stereo speakers arrives at the listener at the same time and at the same level. That means that the left and the right have to be well matched in frequency response.

If you're setting delays first by ear with no EQ, then all bets are off. If one side is louder at 500 Hz than the other side by 6dB, then when the delays are set CORRECTLY, anything that happens at 500 Hz will be skewed toward the louder side. You can compensate for this with delay, but then your delay setting is incorrect and will affect the image at other frequencies. 

So, the process should be:

1. Set delays for DISTANCE. That's what they are for. 
2. Set crossovers
3. EQ and level

For #1, a tape measure is the correct tool. It's how we measure distance everywhere else, why not when we measure the distance from a speaker to a microphone? We don't use the 'doppler effect" to measure the length of a board, why would we do it in a car?

For 2 and 3, some kind of an analyzer that can display frequency response is necessary.

If you insist on setting delay by ear and want them to be set correctly, then the order is different. Then, it's

1. Set crossovers
2. EQ and Level (but you must EQ each channel to precisely match the crossover target)
3. Delays

For this to work, you MUST use an analyzer. There's no other way you're going to be able to EQ effectively. 

If you insist on doing the whole thing by ear, then good luck. You may someday arrive at something you like, but there's almost no way it's going to be correct.


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks for the info here mate, I don't have the tuning capabilities to eq individual channels as its a fairly basic set up, will be handy to have this info in future if or when I make the jump to a standalone dsp


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

gstokes said:


> I don't bother with L/R time alignment, the sub is 7 ft behind me so the only thing i will do is delay the entire front stage about 3.5ms and call it a day..


gstokes, Until recently I was never convinced of this either. I'm still not certain that it's the answer in ALL cases, as many people want a good sounding system no matter if the listener is the driver or passenger. 

I think it comes down to the individual, and what it is they're using their system for. Having began to focus my work around system optimization/tuning, I've recently (within the last 2 years) started to take another look at previously held beliefs, and have since experienced many instances where tuning for the drivers seat was an incredible night and day difference compared to the previous tune. I will say however, that these systems have been with processors that have presets. This way the passenger could enjoy a maximized soundstage as well. 

Many H.U. have presets too though, come to think of it.....


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Adjusting the delays for distance puts the center directly in between the right and left speakers. That's in the center of the dash.
> 
> Most of us in the aftermarket prefer this and it's where the competition organizations require it. Some of the carmakers and suppliers to the carmakers try to give each passenger their own center. That leaves the near side really small and the far side really big. I hate that.
> 
> ...


Andy, when we set delays based on distance, just wanting to make sure in not missing ANYTHING, the point we're measuring to is the drivers head, yes? And that will put the perceived acoustic center in the middle of the dash? 

I know this might sound like a dumb question, but I'm just wanting to make certain I've got this completely. I think a lot of people would assume that adjusting for distance to drivers head will put the center in front of their face, 

Lightbulb is really dim on this one..............


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Niick said:


> gstokes, Until recently I was never convinced of this either. I'm still not certain that it's the answer in ALL cases, as many people want a good sounding system no matter if the listener is the driver or passenger.
> 
> I think it comes down to the individual, and what it is they're using their system for. Having began to focus my work around system optimization/tuning, I've recently (within the last 2 years) started to take another look at previously held beliefs, and have since experienced many instances where tuning for the drivers seat was an incredible night and day difference compared to the previous tune. I will say however, that these systems have been with processors that have presets. This way the passenger could enjoy a maximized soundstage as well.
> 
> Many H.U. have presets too though, come to think of it.....


Hi Nick and good morning, I am absolutely no good at sound tuning, tone deaf with hearing loss at both ends and what sounds good to me probably sounds like poop to somebody else, next month i will play with the delays more and see what improvements can be realized..


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

gstokes said:


> Hi Nick and good morning, I am absolutely no good at sound tuning, tone deaf with hearing loss at both ends and what sounds good to me probably sounds like poop to somebody else, next month i will play with the delays more and see what improvements can be realized..



If you can adjust in realtime it will really help you notice the difference, just about as noticeable as sweeping the fader from left to right if you've got that option available


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> For #1, a tape measure is the correct tool. It's how we measure distance everywhere else, why not when we measure the distance from a speaker to a microphone? We don't use the 'doppler effect" to measure the length of a board, why would we do it in a car?


I thought the reason we used a mic to measure distance of sound was because the acoustic center, and the physical center, can be two different things, and especially depending on the grill scenario of your drivers, the difference could be quite different, especially considering the short wavelength of high frequencies, like a tweeter's distance compared to a midrange's distance.

If those distances aren't pretty precise, then don't you stand a fairly good chance of NOT aligning their respective acoustic centers, thus rendering the crossover alignment less, MUCH, less than optimal. 

Since we can physically see and feel the exact boundaries of a wooden board with the physical sense of touch, then it makes sense to measure such things with tools that operate in the domain of sight and touch. 

I won't however, claim that temperature and humidity and altitude will make a difference, BUT...........we are having to convert this physical tape measured distance using a constant of some type in our equation. But, the speed of sound isn't actually constant, so, there's that too..........some of us like to at least TRY to be as precise as possible.....

altough often times we fail, and miserably!! SPEAKING OF MYSELF HERE!!

Edit: OH!! It just dawned on me, I think you're talking about left/right distances, and I was thinking in terms of INDIVIDUAL drive unit distances in a fully active setup..........yes?

Edit:2 OH WAIT A MINUTE......maybe the difference realized by the two methods is small compared to the amount of head movement associated with normal living humans...........aha, maybe that's it........


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Niick said:


> Andy, when we set delays based on distance, just wanting to make sure in not missing ANYTHING, the point we're measuring to is the drivers head, yes? And that will put the perceived acoustic center in the middle of the dash?
> 
> I know this might sound like a dumb question, but I'm just wanting to make certain I've got this completely. I think a lot of people would assume that adjusting for distance to drivers head will put the center in front of their face,
> 
> Lightbulb is really dim on this one..............


I usually put a piece of tape on the headrest and measure from each speaker to the tape. It isn't critical. Get close.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Niick said:


> I thought the reason we used a mic to measure distance of sound was because the acoustic center, and the physical center, can be two different things, and especially depending on the grill scenario of your drivers, the difference could be quite different, especially considering the short wavelength of high frequencies, like a tweeter's distance compared to a midrange's distance.
> 
> If those distances aren't pretty precise, then don't you stand a fairly good chance of NOT aligning their respective acoustic centers, thus rendering the crossover alignment less, MUCH, less than optimal.
> 
> ...


Go back to the other thread and look at the group delay curve I drew. The acoustic center of the driver is basically the voice coil position. That center moves rearward in regions where the low frequencies roll off, but when you measure the impulse response and pick the peak, you're picking the peak at high frequencies. 

Looks like we're working on two different kinds of systems. If you're not building cars so they image, then you can set delays to optimize crossovers. I don't find those kinds of systems to be much fun to listen to, though. I'll take a car that images and includes a few frequency response errors over a car with great tonality where the vocals come from the near side speakers.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

If you build a system that includes a center speaker an an upmixer, then your method is great because the center image doesn't depend on distance from the listener to each of the speakers.


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If you build a system that includes a center speaker an an upmixer, then your method is great because the center image doesn't depend on distance from the listener to each of the speakers.



This sounds very intriguing, I'm gonna have to check this out. By any chance, are the Audiofrog processors slated to have such a circuit incorporated into their final design?


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Niick said:


> This sounds very intriguing, I'm gonna have to check this out. By any chance, are the Audiofrog processors slated to have such a circuit incorporated into their final design?


Of course.


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Of course.


Sweet dude, way cool. Say, Andy, I just asked on a new thread about "house curves". Scott taught a method of tuning to a specific tolerance, for instance +/- 3dB, or +/- 1dB depending on the client, tuning to a predetermined curve, which was the classic "waterfall" I've heard it called. Ya know what I'm talkin about.

In SysTune, there is a "normalization" plug-in, so yeah, that's what I'm currently up to at the moment, got a little slow at work, so I took a Rockford 360.3 and hooked it up to my measurement system, I'm measuring the transfer function of the processor so I can input this "house curve" and save it as a normalization file for future use when tuning. Can you recommend, or do you know where I can find such a curve, so I can input the values into the processor, and save the measured TF for later normalization during tuning.?


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Never mind about the "house curves" sorry about that! 

Didn't realize how easy it was to find!!


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Niick, keep in mind that a "house curve" isn't necessarily going to be ideal in a car. Most of us agree that truly flat doesn't sound good either, but a car is a completely different environment than a room. See if you like the curve, but don't think that it is the universally ideal curve in a car. I'm sure the curves in most of the competition winner's cars are drastically different than a typical "house curve." The good thing though, is at least you'll have a better idea of how to EQ for the curve you prefer.


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

gijoe said:


> Niick, keep in mind that a "house curve" isn't necessarily going to be ideal in a car. Most of us agree that truly flat doesn't sound good either, but a car is a completely different environment than a room. See if you like the curve, but don't think that it is the universally ideal curve in a car. I'm sure the curves in most of the competition winner's cars are drastically different than a typical "house curve." The good thing though, is at least you'll have a better idea of how to EQ for the curve you prefer.


For sure, so I've been trying to create a set of standards against which I can rely on for system tuning in time sensitive situations. 

I want to ultimitely create some normalization files, that, within my software can be enabled/disabled with the click of a mouse, this way, I can compare the results of established "target curves" (that have been listened to by multiple people, co-workers for example) as measured with a "time blind" RTA style spectrum measurement, then, I can switch over to transfer mode, enable TFC (frequency dependent) windowing, and see what time setting on the TFC window result in a similar measurement. 

That is-similar to the normalized RTA measurement.

Ya know what I'm sayin? It's an experiment/development of the ideal TFC window time. Please understand that the TFC window IS NOT your conventional window. The time varies with frequency. And it's fully adjustable. There WILL be a setting that more closely mimics perceived flatness. I just have to find it. This way, as the vehicles environment changes, I'll have a way of measuring with closer representation of the way we perceive sound than just a RTA style target curve. 

Its all just an idea at this point, yes, but the idea has merit, as frequency dependent FFT sizes have been found to "more closely relate to how we hear" by more than one person of known audio experience. I'm trying to expand on that knowledge, bring it into car audio, and at the very least establish a new standard FOR MYSELF that will, in the end, result in great sound, reliably, repeatably, and in a greater number of various automobiles, than any known method of tuning I've yet seen.

I believe this is an area of car audio that can stand some improvement, and an some standards to be established. 

Thank you for your help, I do very much appreciate all knowledge that is shared by everyone. 

Sincerely, Nick


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Sorry to be digging this one up again, just hoping for confirmation from someone who knows their stuff. Once it's all set correctly aren't the main vocals meant to sound as if they come from a point in the middle of the dash like there's a 3rd speaker there? Only reason I ask is because I took my car to a shop to see if he could do anything or suggest any ways I could possibly improve mine and when I'd got it back he had it set so the main/centre vocals were coming from the driver side sail panel, I'm almost certain he may not know what he's doing but wanted to check here for a second opinion and confirmation


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Either he has attempted to shift the stage infront of you, or he doesnt know what he is doing.


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Kazuhiro said:


> Either he has attempted to shift the stage infront of you, or he doesnt know what he is doing.



Thank you very much, I'm thinking it may be the second one there. I found the mids were way out, the driver side mid only had 12" of delay added (quick measure reveals it should be closer to a 20-24" difference), he claimed to have focused and centred the sound stage as well as added depth when he gave it back. I'm thinking he may not have a clue


----------



## davewpy (Jun 22, 2014)

Alex92 said:


> Sorry to be digging this one up again, just hoping for confirmation from someone who knows their stuff. Once it's all set correctly aren't the main vocals meant to sound as if they come from a point in the middle of the dash like there's a 3rd speaker there? Only reason I ask is because I took my car to a shop to see if he could do anything or suggest any ways I could possibly improve mine and when I'd got it back he had it set so the main/centre vocals were coming from the driver side sail panel, I'm almost certain he may not know what he's doing but wanted to check here for a second opinion and confirmation


If you can get your hands on an EMMA CD it will help you a lot. There's also a XLO recording disc that shows you how the staging should be, in regards to the recording that's meant to be played.

Yes, the vocals are suppose to be along the centre line of your vehicle and at eye level - if the recording is done dead centre.

There are some songs in stockfish records like "Baby Its Cold Outside" where the female singer is on the right centre (ideally right in front of RH seat) and male vocal is in the centre. In my case, right in front of the me, RH drive.

The measuring method will get the imaging close this way. Then its all about crossovers and individual driver EQ and then a full EQ of left and right.

Fine tuning TA is a different topic altogether, I believe. Do re-read Andy's post for simplicity.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

davewpy said:


> If you can get your hands on an EMMA CD it will help you a lot. There's also a XLO recording disc that shows you how the staging should be, in regards to the recording that's meant to be played.
> 
> Yes, the vocals are suppose to be along the centre line of your vehicle and at eye level - if the recording is done dead centre.
> 
> ...



Thanks mate  I managed to get my hands on an old IASCA setup disc, imaging test has a male voice at the left, female speaks dead centre then another male on the right. Also has the 7 drums track where they would ideally sound evenly spaced across the stage, unfortunately I've committed to some pretty shocking speaker placement which doesn't image well, first 2 are far left, 3rd is somewhere between centre and left, 4th is centre, 5th shoots hear the right side then 6&7 both at far right, I tweaked for a while and couldn't improve on that, better speaker placement would help a lot


----------



## davewpy (Jun 22, 2014)

Sounds like a xo/levelling issue to me.

Are you on RH or LH drive?

My issues are more the right centre and right getting too close together with an oem VW speaker placement.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

davewpy said:


> Sounds like a xo/levelling issue to me.
> 
> Are you on RH or LH drive?
> 
> ...



Yeah right hand drive in Australia, might be worth adjusting my crossovers if it might help, tweeters currently high passed at 2k 12db slope (can't go to 24 unfortunately). If you have any suggestions that might even it up I'm all ears to try


----------



## davewpy (Jun 22, 2014)

If you take a picture to show the position, then measure the distance between the centre to centre of each driver and the specifications of each driver, I could probably give you some baselines to work with.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

Picture meaning show where they're mounted?


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

davewpy said:


> If you take a picture to show the position, then measure the distance between the centre to centre of each driver and the specifications of each driver, I could probably give you some baselines to work with.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



Here's how 1 door is, other is the same, wish I had tweeters in pillars or sails but I didn't know any better when I put my first set in








Rough measurements from each speaker to where my head is (shouldn't be much more than 5cm out)
Left tweet: 110cm
Left mid: 130cm
Right tweet: 65cm
Right mid: 80cm
Speakers are a Set of alpine spx17 ref speakers, running active off the head unit. If you want any other info let me know and I'll get it for you, I'm feeling content with my centre image right now but the right side of centre is all compressed at the right, left side is as well to an extent but not quite as much, if you can come up with ideas to improve the image go for it, only thing I can think of would be better placement


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Where you located in aus?


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm in cairns far North Queensland. Probably might run by another shop for a second opinion if I can on how it should sound, not many audio enthusiasts in my area though unfortunately.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Try this:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...5069-better-technique-ear-time-alignment.html


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

fcarpio said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...5069-better-technique-ear-time-alignment.html


Excellent write up. In the pro-sound field people commonly refer to this technique as "nulling".


----------



## lashlee (Aug 16, 2007)

I tried a bunch of the variations listed on here and fcarpio's was by far the easiest to get right!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

When my car came back from the installer I was pleased with the imaging and soundstage, but thought I could do better.
With help from my lovely assistant (9 year old daughter) I measured (twice) from the center of my head to each speaker grille, then added a little bit based on estimated depth from grille to center of cone. Took sub as "0" (it's the farthest away), and subtracted each measurement from sub's actual distance to come up with delay settings. After tweaking crossover settings, I input my measurements.
New image was better than with no T/A, but a little low, a little toward the left, and a tad diffuse.
I took a look at what the installer had done - his numbers were anywhere from 4" to 12" less than the actual distance measurements, and he had used "0" for right midbass and midrange in addition to sub (my sub is up front, and while the difference in distances from each these to the driver's position is not huge, it is greater than zero when measured in inches.)

I reverted to his figures for both tweeters and left mid and MB, and it went right back where it was when I picked up the car. (A good sign, at least.) I then threw in a fraction of the actual distance for rear Mid and MB. It's better than it has ever been, but still not the best I have heard - I think there's room for improvement (particularly in arrival times for the midbasses.) I need to "enter" each value before it takes effect, so the Doppler method is unlikely to work for me. Therefore I'm going to try fcarpio's "cancellation" method and see if I can get a solid, stable image with clear low frequencies coming from just below my rear view mirror.

Any idea why using the tape measure would be so much less accurate than experienced ears playing around for a little bit?


----------



## Alex92 (Mar 27, 2015)

tjswarbrick said:


> When my car came back from the installer I was pleased with the imaging and soundstage, but thought I could do better.
> 
> With help from my lovely assistant (9 year old daughter) I measured (twice) from the center of my head to each speaker grille, then added a little bit based on estimated depth from grille to center of cone. Took sub as "0" (it's the farthest away), and subtracted each measurement from sub's actual distance to come up with delay settings. After tweaking crossover settings, I input my measurements.
> 
> ...



I ended up just using the tape as a rough approximation then set to my liking by ear, I'm guessing it's not 100% on target due to things like in car reflections etc, well maybe that could be one cause, so much goes on in a car


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Main reason it's a car. Really though I can't give scientific answers but the tape measure method will only get you in the ball park. After that it's test and tinker time


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Alex92 said:


> , I'm guessing it's not 100% on target due to things like in car reflections etc, well maybe that could be one cause, so much goes on in a car





Beckerson1 said:


> Main reason it's a car. Really though I can't give scientific answers but the tape measure method will only get you in the ball park. After that it's test and tinker time


I can accept that. Thanks guys.

It may take me until the weekend, but I'll report back when I've had a chance to spend some time on it.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

if it's a truism that measurement only takes you so far, then perhaps the reason many experienced/expert tuners claim to be able to better the MS-8's detection and delay process is due to whatever is causing the measurement scheme to fall short.

However, many non-expert tuners have been very satisfied with the MS-8's corrections, and I have even read that the time alignment part of the MS-8's functions is one of the best available and hardly improved with adjustments.

now, that being responsible for just an MS-8's peculiarity, it's latency and fixes for latency after an equalization curve is applied, I wonder how accurate those settings would transfer to another DSP's outputs?

Like, if the MS-8 has a digital fix on driver's listening location using a circuit that is not arbitrary, or does not vacillate between mS settings, then would using one to find delay times be useful even if one does not install the MS-8, but merely applies it's settings to another, more cheaply obtained DSP processor?

sorry for the additional question but this seemed like an appropriate thread in which to find the answer to a nagging concern of mine.


I do not have an MS-8 and multiple DSP units to test this hypothesis, but it would help a small collection of DIYMA members to know if the MS-8 derivative values do indicate a stage presentation that was selected by experts, for the base line...

and moving forward, the Harman curve being applied as well? For those who now cannot obtain the MS-8 due to it's removal from the market, there is perhaps a small window of opportunity for those users who may choose to apply a miniDSP to a system but want the MS-8 corrections as a fundamental, or starting point. Like, install the MS-8, test and get readings, then install the miniDSP with those settings, to use as a preset in a bank of available curves/delay points/2-seat tunes, etc.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I do not have, and have not used, an MS-8 - but from my understanding you don't enter path-length distance or distance differences into it; you run its auto-tune and it takes measurements of the sound. Kinda like a computer using its own ears.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

tjswarbrick said:


> I do not have, and have not used, an MS-8 - but from my understanding you don't enter path-length distance or distance differences into it; you run its auto-tune and it takes measurements of the sound. Kinda like a computer using its own ears.


yes, but you can get a print-out of the MS-8's measurement and applied delay settings, if I remember correctly? Was that just with the Alpine PXE-650?

my having not owned or played with an MS-8 or Alpine's auto-calibrate schemes, makes this question one that can be applied to both. Or really any of the available DSP with the time-correction function?

I have read where Pioneer's auto-tune is dratty and Yamaha's is natty, but Denon is phenom and Onkyo is the go-go, ha...

ha?

I wonder how far off from each other these DSP actually are, then?

And is the Audyssey better than the REW or... what?

Maybe you can't even extract the raw settings due to latency changes in the processor as equalization changes the values along with selected slope and values of the crossovers...


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

tjswarbrick said:


> When my car came back from the installer I was pleased with the imaging and soundstage, but thought I could do better.
> With help from my lovely assistant (9 year old daughter) I measured (twice) from the center of my head to each speaker grille, then added a little bit based on estimated depth from grille to center of cone. Took sub as "0" (it's the farthest away), and subtracted each measurement from sub's actual distance to come up with delay settings. After tweaking crossover settings, I input my measurements.
> New image was better than with no T/A, but a little low, a little toward the left, and a tad diffuse.
> I took a look at what the installer had done - his numbers were anywhere from 4" to 12" less than the actual distance measurements, and he had used "0" for right midbass and midrange in addition to sub (my sub is up front, and while the difference in distances from each these to the driver's position is not huge, it is greater than zero when measured in inches.)
> ...



Are your front left and right EQ's dialed in accurately? My stage didnt seem to work till the eq was matched well


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Kazuhiro said:


> Are your front left and right EQ's dialed in accurately? My stage didnt seem to work till the eq was matched well


I have barely begun to EQ. I prefer to use as little as possible and though I should get crossovers and T/A sorted first. But that'll probably help too.


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

cajunner said:


> yes, but you can get a print-out of the MS-8's measurement and applied delay settings, if I remember correctly? Was that just with the Alpine PXE-650?
> 
> my having not owned or played with an MS-8 or Alpine's auto-calibrate schemes, makes this question one that can be applied to both. Or really any of the available DSP with the time-correction function?
> 
> ...





tjswarbrick said:


> I have barely begun to EQ. I prefer to use as little as possible and though I should get crossovers and T/A sorted first. But that'll probably help too.



Cajunner:

No you can't get that info from the ms8. 

I say it works similarly to what what a external soundcard, mic, and REW. With these three things you can figure delay using REW and get just about right on as far as delay goes. The Ms8 I'm sure had some more math going on but in concept the same thing as far as delay is figured. EQ was a preset house curve and the EQ adjusts each side to match each other and the overall house curve.

This is what made the ms8 so compelling. Just never made it past the childhood phase.
Now it's a matter if Andy applies the successes of the MS8 into a multi useful dsp for his Audiofrog line. Make something that conforms to a beginner yet allows for a advance user to bypass the auto stuff and adjust every perimeter. This is where it would be a dominant dsp on the market.


Tjswarbrick:

Balancing left to right and getting the frequency responses within a db or so of each other will help make your staging less muddy and coherent. This could and is most likely a good portion of your smearing issue. 

You can tell this as certain frequencies will pull left or right.


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

lashlee said:


> I tried a bunch of the variations listed on here and fcarpio's was by far the easiest to get right!


Thanks, much appreciated.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Delay corrects for distance. We use a tape measure to measure distance for every other application. Use the tape measure for this, too. 

If, after setting the delays to correct for distance you've measured with the tape measure, you have a non centered image or a center image that changes position at various frequencies, don't readjust your delays. Check the level and frequency response between the left and right channels. If they aren't precisely matched, do a better job of matching them.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Great T Info, I'm going to need.

A few months ago I used the tape measure and ear method no DSP and the HU TA only adjusts in like 2.3" increments.

It was off the center by a lot, but it was a start, I then just met the value at half point somewhere in between for the midbass, based on how much it was off, and almost got it or at least it was hard to know for the average ears how much it was off.

Then used the output levels on my ms amp since it was bridged for the mid bass and narrowed the difference. Having the tweeters deep on the corners and not on the door sail panels I imagine made it easier, with no DSP or EQ/ch Maybe I got lucky. I had a narrowed stage voice centered within maybe 15", I was happy, I will need to try to do it again, with a diferent set up and maybe I will not be as lucky or happy as I was before due to future tuning limitations.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I spent a few hours last night tweaking the crossovers and applying the "Better technique for ear time alignment."

A few things stand out:
Working on sub to nearest MB, a 1dB dip in invert-phase gave me a 4dB boost in In-Phase.
There is a broad range of settings that yield the lowest response in phase-inverted mode. Using those as the new upper and lower limits, putting the phase back to normal, and using a speaking voice rather than tones or complex music makes it easier to select which one is "right" - but even then, tiny changes can either lock in location, optimize tonality, or minimize reflections - but not necessarily all at once.
Probably didn't help that my left midrange gain is 1-2dB higher than right. Need to fix that and try again.

Delays correspond with distances in that the closest speakers are delayed the most - but they are not even close to the actual differences in as-measured distance from speaker to listening location (less farthest driver.)

In the meantime, my 80dB cabin-node null came up about 6dB. It's still a dip, but isn't nearly as bad as before. And while I'd still like to work on narrowing the center-image focus to mouth-sized instead of head-sized - it's amazing to have all the bass come out of the windshield like that!
Amazing method, though it'll still takes some patience and insight.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Niick said:


> Ok, so I'm asking a serious question here, when a person sets delays for all drivers to arrive at same time with mic, or point of measurement, or whatever, at the drivers head, then does that put the center at the steering wheel, or dash?
> 
> The last tuning I did, I set delays for drivers seat, and it sounded great, and I did 2 presets, one for drivers seat, one for between the seats, the drivers seat preset was WAYYY better, listening from the drivers seat anyway.
> 
> I thought mic at drivers position would put the center right in front of driver, but then like gijoe said, that would seem to create problems in a lot of scenarios. So, what's the deal with that?


If the time correction is set properly the coincident image will be exactly in the middle, between the left and right speakers. If the exact middle of your left and right speakers is the center of the dash, that's where your center image will be. If you set the time correction to move that image to the left or right of that middle position, your system is not properly time aligned and you will have varying issues. Time correction is not something we do "to taste". It is an abosolute measurement and each system has a theoretical set of values that will cause all the sound from each driver to arrive at a point in space (the drivers head) at precisely the same time.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

garysummers said:


> If the time correction is set properly the coincident image will be exactly in the middle, between the left and right speakers. If the exact middle of your left and right speakers is the center of the dash, that's where your center image will be. If you set the time correction to move that image to the left or right of that middle position, your system is not properly time aligned and you will have varying issues. Time correction is not something we do "to taste". It is an abosolute measurement and each system has a theoretical set of values that will cause all the sound from each driver to arrive at a point in space (the drivers head) at precisely the same time.



Ok. That explains my finding after EQ'ing left and right to match via REW auto-EQ. the resulting correct TA puts center dead below the rear view mirror. 

On playing with that, I found you can make the image move left but, as I found in moving image closer to steering wheel you have to do this in amount increments necessary to keep mids in phase or you'll throw off your sub and mids. Thus at 80hz crossover it's pretty much impossible due to wavelength if I understand it correctly. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

garysummers said:


> If the time correction is set properly the coincident image will be exactly in the middle, between the left and right speakers. If the exact middle of your left and right speakers is the center of the dash, that's where your center image will be. If you set the time correction to move that image to the left or right of that middle position, your system is not properly time aligned and you will have varying issues. Time correction is not something we do "to taste". It is an abosolute measurement and each system has a theoretical set of values that will cause all the sound from each driver to arrive at a point in space (the drivers head) at precisely the same time.


So true.
What amazes me is that, correctly aligned, the center image also moves up - above the dash, and above the physical location of the highest-mounted speakers (usually tweeters, but I've been in a couple with mids up higher than tweets) to ear-level or so. And tends to move back toward the windshield, or out above the hood, as well.

Wish I took the chance to hear your car out at the GtG near NASA Gary. Hopefully I'll catch up with you next time.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

May I ask, for the record, according to you pro's who compete, where "should" center be? Dead nuts center dash correct with distancing between the drivers?
I assume so, if that indicates your TA is correct.
Just seems so "right side heavy" for lack of a better way to put it.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

As already mentioned, the center should be dead center between the speakers, regardless of where on the dash that puts it. If you try to make the center directly in front of the listening position you'll end up with a very wide right stage, and a very narrow left stage (reverse if they put your car together backwards), this is really unrealistic and sounds pretty unsatisfying.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

gijoe said:


> As already mentioned, the center should be dead center between the speakers, regardless of where on the dash that puts it. If you try to make the center directly in front of the listening position you'll end up with a very wide right stage, and a very narrow left stage (reverse if they put your car together backwards), this is really unrealistic and sounds pretty unsatisfying.


Having a distinctly precise center now, it'll take some getting used to now I think, but ok.. I'll roll with it.  Thanks. Does make me think now another advantage for far-placed tweeters like Erin had on his last build up in dash corners by a long windshield.


----------

