# Eric Stevens' horn tune



## funkalicious

On the old Image Dynamics website forum under horns, in several posts on tuning Eric Stevens laid out a specific tune with frequencies, boosts and cuts for a starting point when tuning horns. Does anybody have that information?


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## Horsemanwill

depending on the horn 

1khz @24db slope and up for horns

80 to 1kz @24 on the mids

80 down on subs.

those are usually a good starting point


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## Neel

Here is what I think you were looking for...


_before using the TA to bring up height reverse polarity/phase of both horns together to see if it raises the stage.

So in this order
- put one side out of phase Horn and midbass driver
- listen and try reversing both horns polarity phase to lift sound stage
- balance left
- t/a left mid only until it lifts up as high as possible then mirror that setting to other side
- then balance center
- t/a left horn and mid together until it shifts center no more than .5 millisecond
- EQ left and right separately as the lower midrange / upper mid bass area 160 to 400 hz range can really lower our stage height. If you dont have an RTA try these settings 125 - 3dB 160 -9dB 200 -6dB 250 -6dB 320 -3dB and see if it is better tonally and stage height wise.

To smooth the top end adjust as follows 2000 -3dB 2500 -6 dB 3000 -6dB 4000 -3dB



-Eric Stevens_


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## funkalicious

Thanks Neel! That's exactly what I was looking for


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## mattyjman

good to have


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## mattyjman

there is some additional stuff from when i asked the tuning question here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/97498-tuning-your-hlcd-system.html


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## Mic10is

Of all my systems and variations---the best it ever sounded was when Eric tuned it

Of all my systems and variations--the worst it ever sounded (aside from when was learning to tune) was when Eric Tuned it.

even Eric had off days too...:laugh:

Ironically, one of the best it sounded was when Eric was coming off a very bad ear infection and his right ear he said was about 10db down from his left.
(2001 USAC Finals)

A combination of Eric tuning and input from others got my car sounding great as well.

Image Dynamics used to have a guy named Dell Helmer who was National Sales Rep, who did a great job tuning--when He and Eric teamed up--magic happened.

Combination of Matt Borgardt tuning bass and Eric doing everything else, has also yielded superb results.

Biggest advantage to having them help with tuning was--they could do things easier and faster than I could or can.


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## bigbubba

Glad I seen this thread. May be needing it soon. Great information.


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## Eastman474

Awesome info to have and good addition matt..
Especially for the users first making the switch to horns... which was me not too long ago


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## TokoSpeaker

I am just a newbie, I put this setting on my car :

- Hi 2.5kHz 12dB
- Mid 2.5kHz 12dB
- Low 63Hz 12dB

Very Heavy sound...
The sound really awesome for me

Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## veritasz34

Del was a great guy and also knew what he was doing..I was there at finals that year myself..Just not using Image horns..


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## FG79

Neel said:


> Here is what I think you were looking for...
> 
> 
> _before using the TA to bring up height reverse polarity/phase of both horns together to see if it raises the stage.
> 
> So in this order
> - put one side out of phase Horn and midbass driver
> - listen and try reversing both horns polarity phase to lift sound stage
> - balance left
> - t/a left mid only until it lifts up as high as possible then mirror that setting to other side
> - then balance center
> - t/a left horn and mid together until it shifts center no more than .5 millisecond
> - EQ left and right separately as the lower midrange / upper mid bass area 160 to 400 hz range can really lower our stage height. If you dont have an RTA try these settings 125 - 3dB 160 -9dB 200 -6dB 250 -6dB 320 -3dB and see if it is better tonally and stage height wise.
> 
> To smooth the top end adjust as follows 2000 -3dB 2500 -6 dB 3000 -6dB 4000 -3dB
> 
> 
> 
> -Eric Stevens_


The horns and/or amp used in this install when he made these recommendations couldn't have been that good if he needed to make this many dramatic cuts in the midbass and midrange area.

Either that or his tonal preferences are far different than mine. You should be able to tune horns active without an EQ.


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## Mic10is

FG79 said:


> The horns and/or amp used in this install when he made these recommendations couldn't have been that good if he needed to make this many dramatic cuts in the midbass and midrange area.
> 
> Either that or his tonal preferences are far different than mine. You should be able to tune horns active without an EQ.


Yeh youre right, wtf does Eric Stevens know about tuning the horns he designed


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## subwoofery

lol 

Kelvin


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## FG79

Mic10is said:


> Yeh youre right, wtf does Eric Stevens know about tuning the horns he designed


You can be very knowledgeable about how to tune sound but if your reference isn't right it doesn't matter. 

Besides if you look at his comments, it is all about "the stage"...getting the height, depth, etc. right. You cannot tune for that and tonality at the same time....it's just not possible. 

If someone told you that boosting 20 khz by 12 dB would give you great stage height, would you expect it to sound right?


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## subwoofery

:snacks: 

Kelvin


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## Mic10is

FG79 said:


> You can be very knowledgeable about how to tune sound but if your reference isn't right it doesn't matter.
> 
> Besides if you look at his comments, it is all about "the stage"...getting the height, depth, etc. right. You cannot tune for that and tonality at the same time....it's just not possible.
> 
> If someone told you that boosting 20 khz by 12 dB would give you great stage height, would you expect it to sound right?


I really have no idea who you are or what your experience is in car audio,audio or using horns,especially the ID horns.
But I do find it laughable that you are saying that the guy who Invented Image Dynamics and all the horn bodies they sold, and has tuned numerous IASCA,USAC,MECA World Champions, who himself is a world champion, who works closely with Dr.Bruce Edgar who is one of THE most knowledgeable horn designers in the world, doesnt know how to tune horns or systems.

the "guidelines" posted are exactly that a rough guideline for someone who has no access to an RTA.
Its based on decades of actual in car experience tuning hundreds of vehicles.
It isnt meant to be a FINAL, be all end all , this will knock your socks off tune. 

All vehicles have commonalities with shared components and speaker locations.
and the recommendations arent that far off from what I have been using when tuning with an Audio Control RTA.


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## Eric Stevens

FG79 said:


> The horns and/or amp used in this install when he made these recommendations couldn't have been that good if he needed to make this many dramatic cuts in the midbass and midrange area.
> 
> Either that or his tonal preferences are far different than mine. You should be able to tune horns active without an EQ.


No this is very common to the environment we are dealing with. Take the time to map out transfer function of the interior of some cars and you will quickly find my suggestion not so radical or extreme.

Midbass location and enclosure will have a significant effect on my recommendation for equalization because it alters the transfer function.

If a system outside the car needed these amounts of EQ there would be something significantly wrong but in a car.

You can do 90 to 95% of tuning a system without the EQ but an EQ is a very necessary tool.

Thinking the amplifier had an effect or was the cause is just not possible. Yes they do not sound the same but that wont cause large changes in equalization. 

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

FG79 said:


> You can be very knowledgeable about how to tune sound but if your reference isn't right it doesn't matter.
> 
> Besides if you look at his comments, it is all about "the stage"...getting the height, depth, etc. right. You cannot tune for that and tonality at the same time....it's just not possible.


So I dont have a proper reference? preposterous!  

You have to tune the system as a whole and do it in a systematic manner. as you tune a system using my method, which happens to be very similar to just about everyone who is respected in our industry, it gets better and better tonally as well as improving staging and imaging as you go though the process. You can NOT separate out a single part/element of the tuning process as they all affect and interact with each other. 

So to correct your statement here is what the real truth is and should read "you cant tune a system without affecting tonality, imaging and staging all at the same time."

Eric


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## Darth SQ

Eric Stevens said:


> So I dont have a proper reference? preposterous!
> 
> You have to tune the system as a whole and do it in a systematic manner. as you tune a system using my method, which happens to be very similar to just about everyone who is respected in our industry, it gets better and better tonally as well as improving staging and imaging as you go though the process. You can NOT separate out a single part/element of the tuning process as they all affect and interact with each other.
> 
> So to correct your statement here is what the real truth is and should read "you cant tune a system without affecting tonality, imaging and staging all at the same time."
> 
> Eric


I just love this website!
All the heavy hitters are here!
Thank you for taking the time to educate us all on what you do so very well.

BTW, it cracks me up everytime I see Eric Stevens in the banner and Novice right below it. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## hybridspl

Love this site! I have learned more from trolling around here than I ever did as an installer.


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## FG79

Eric Stevens said:


> So I dont have a proper reference? preposterous!
> 
> You have to tune the system as a whole and do it in a systematic manner. as you tune a system using my method, which happens to be very similar to just about everyone who is respected in our industry, it gets better and better tonally as well as improving staging and imaging as you go though the process. You can NOT separate out a single part/element of the tuning process as they all affect and interact with each other.
> 
> So to correct your statement here is what the real truth is and should read "you cant tune a system without affecting tonality, imaging and staging all at the same time."
> 
> Eric


Eric,

I apologize for coming off aggressively. It's just that I have heard a few cars that were EQ'd with just imaging/tonality in mind (the trend it appears over the last 10+ years), and these systems felt like the life was sucked out of them IMO. A lot of midbass and midrange cutting in general is not a good idea.

However, I always make the final judgment with my ears not with what my eyes read. 

As far as having to balance the horns, I get that it's not like balancing with a simple tweeter. Which is why for a pair of horns, it's nice to have a pair of midbass drivers (at least) in each door/kick to help balance them out (or at least the extra drivers coming from the rear). It's hard to really crank a super efficient pair of horns with an inefficient driver to mate with....so you try to go with at least 2. 

Then there's the issue of the amps. IMO, I'd only ever run tubes on horns....solid state just not the right match. There's the old Carver amps that were very smooth...maybe those *could* work but none of these higher power SS amps. Once you go tubes, hard to go back. 

As for the amps driving the midbass drivers, you need balls for that too. I wholeheartedly believe in the amps being more important than the drivers -- I feel that the best amps with mediocre drivers will sound better than mediocre amps with the the best drivers.

Lastly we have the HLCDs themselves....not all created equal.

So the philosophy is to do as much as possible with the right gear and active tuning, and use EQ at the end....hopefully not a lot. 

I'd like to hear one of your horn cars.

BTW, to Mic10is I've been privileged to audition hundreds of hours with many high end home systems, a high percentage of which are HLCD based (this is due to having a friend in the business who knows what he's doing).

That's where I get my confidence that I have a good reference...I've learned to appreciate a strong midrange...."weight", "presence", midbass over subbass, a sound that's full and not "thin", etc. That is more important than "detail" in the treble region, or an overboosted treble region. In my experience that's where a lot of car audio guys (even some home audio guys) are at, and I'll admit to being there myself only a few years ago. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone judging IASCA or MECA or whatever organization still feels this is "reference". 

The difference between home and car audio really should just be that car audio has more midbass exaggeration (flatter home audio bass doesn't sound good in car). The rest of the tonality should be similar if possible. 

As for tuning cars, well I've heard a few non EQ passive installs that sound great, which sounds like it would be impossible for most people in the car audio community but its not. That's what makes me skeptical that EQ is always necessary.


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## T3mpest

FG79 said:


> Eric,
> 
> I apologize for coming off aggressively. It's just that I have heard a few cars that were EQ'd with just imaging/tonality in mind (the trend it appears over the last 10+ years), and these systems felt like the life was sucked out of them IMO. A lot of midbass and midrange cutting in general is not a good idea.
> 
> However, I always make the final judgment with my ears not with what my eyes read.
> 
> As far as having to balance the horns, I get that it's not like balancing with a simple tweeter. Which is why for a pair of horns, it's nice to have a pair of midbass drivers (at least) in each door/kick to help balance them out (or at least the extra drivers coming from the rear). It's hard to really crank a super efficient pair of horns with an inefficient driver to mate with....so you try to go with at least 2.


While I would agree a strong midrange is the most important part of getting overall good SQ... In a car getting a strong midrange is easy, but getting a good lower midbass region transitions smoothly is hard. This is because most vehicles width create a peak in the midbass region, usually between 125-250hz depending on how wide. You really have to flatten that peak out to get a good transition for your midbass to your midrange. Usually it's a good 5-9db cut...


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## FG79

T3mpest said:


> While I would agree a strong midrange is the most important part of getting overall good SQ... In a car getting a strong midrange is easy, but getting a good lower midbass region transitions smoothly is hard. This is because most vehicles width create a peak in the midbass region, usually between 125-250hz depending on how wide. You really have to flatten that peak out to get a good transition for your midbass to your midrange. Usually it's a good 5-9db cut...


Ok...

I have to ask...

Are we doing this tuning by ear or by RTA? And if we are using an RTA what response are we looking for (e.g. flat)?

After hearing a ton of cars that seem to lack midbass, my gut feeling is someone is making the cuts because they feel that a boost is wrong or whatever. 

Since our ears are less sensitive in the midbass region than midrange and treble, we'll need more SPL to compensate. That means that in order to have a flat response the midbass needs some boost and to have that driving midbass will need even more boost. 

Midbass humps are fine in car audio, I don't get what the fuss is about. It ties the subbass to the midrange and makes the music sound more natural. 

I say just trust yours ears on what sounds good. 

If you truly legitimately do not like this sound with your ears, that's fine. But if you're tuning down this region because you read that's what's supposed to be done, then I advise you listen first.


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## subwoofery

FG79 said:


> Ok...
> 
> I have to ask...
> 
> Are we doing this tuning by ear or by RTA? And if we are using an RTA what response are we looking for (e.g. flat)?
> Both, and as Mic said earlier, Eric's cut suggestion are right on when it comes to horns in a car - After tuning a few cars, I know that some areas always need cuts due to reflexion and all sorts of problems due to the car's interior...
> 
> After hearing a ton of cars that seem to lack midbass, my gut feeling is someone is making the cuts because they feel that a boost is wrong or whatever.
> Lack of midbass can be due to 2 things IMO: phase problems (when doors mounting due to the center console reflection) and rattles (so much that you have only 1 option, cut down it's level)...
> 
> Since our ears are less sensitive in the midbass region than midrange and treble, we'll need more SPL to compensate. That means that in order to have a flat response the midbass needs some boost and to have that driving midbass will need even more boost.
> Agreed but...
> 
> Midbass humps are fine in car audio, I don't get what the fuss is about. It ties the subbass to the midrange and makes the music sound more natural.
> ... you can have just enough midbass that it doesn't overpower the whole midrange band. I thought that you listenned to lots of Home Audio setup coz most setup I used and listenned to did not have overpowering midbass, quite the contrary actually... they just have (I've said it already) enough... Too much and it sounds muddy.
> As stated by *T3mpest*, the 125Hz-250Hz range is 99.99% of time too hot in cars. You don't cut that range in your car and you like it? Fine by me
> 
> I say just trust yours ears on what sounds good.
> Again, agreed...
> 
> If you truly legitimately do not like this sound with your ears, that's fine. But if you're tuning down this region because you read that's what's supposed to be done, then I advise you listen first.
> You mentionned that you listenned to a few HLCD in a home setup but have you already used HLCD in a car and liked them without an EQ? Eagerly waiting for an answer on that one...


Kelvin


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## DanMan

Midbass humps are fine in car audio? Yuck.


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## Mic10is

FG79 said:


> BTW, to Mic10is I've been privileged to audition hundreds of hours with many high end home systems, a high percentage of which are HLCD based (this is due to having a friend in the business who knows what he's doing).
> 
> That's where I get my confidence that I have a good reference...I've learned to appreciate a strong midrange...."weight", "presence", midbass over subbass, a sound that's full and not "thin", etc. That is more important than "detail" in the treble region, or an overboosted treble region. In my experience that's where a lot of car audio guys (even some home audio guys) are at, and I'll admit to being there myself only a few years ago. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone judging IASCA or MECA or whatever organization still feels this is "reference".
> 
> The difference between home and car audio really should just be that car audio has more midbass exaggeration (flatter home audio bass doesn't sound good in car). The rest of the tonality should be similar if possible.
> 
> As for tuning cars, well I've heard a few non EQ passive installs that sound great, which sounds like it would be impossible for most people in the car audio community but its not. That's what makes me skeptical that EQ is always necessary.



So While you may have a reference from Home Audio, it does not appear that you have an actual experience tuning actual vehicles systems.
Which then leads me to believe that youve never used an RTA in a vehicle to measure system response.
If you had, youd realize that pretty much every vehicle/system have peaks, some as large as 6-8db+ between 125 and 400hz.
160 and 200hz typically being the highest peaks regardless of speaker location.

No EQ or processing would be IDEAL in any situation, but realistically bc of the close proximity of highly reflective surfaces, coupled with absorptive surfaces plus off center and axis seating positions etc...means a vehicle is a terrible place to expect "ideal" system response from speakers.

YES it is possible to custom design passive networks to compensate for frequency response in car, but its very time consuming and alot of trial and error and can be accomplished easier via digital signal processing much easier.


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## Horsemanwill

Eric's way of tuning works great. many of ppl have used it as a starting point and have never complained.


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## TokoSpeaker

This thread is very interesting.


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## FG79

subwoofery said:


> Kelvin


I have not heard a horn car without EQ, so it's speculation. However...

I tend to follow my buddy Vu's advice without questioning it. The man took me from forums and gave me what most people would consider counter-intuitive, against-the-grain advice and has never failed me in anything....not even once. Always met or exceeded expectations. Bats 1.000, so if he says "jump", I now say "how high?". 

So from my memory, all he ever said about tuning horn cars was to go active. He would agree that EQ would help but never said "don't do a horn car without EQ".


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## FG79

DanMan said:


> Midbass humps are fine in car audio? Yuck.


They're yummy, and you'd be lying to yourself if you said you didn't like them. 

There's also a misunderstanding of what actual midbass vs. subbass frequencies are. People often think they're liking subbass when it's really midbass. 



Mic10is said:


> So While you may have a reference from Home Audio, it does not appear that you have an actual experience tuning actual vehicles systems.
> Which then leads me to believe that youve never used an RTA in a vehicle to measure system response.
> If you had, youd realize that pretty much every vehicle/system have peaks, some as large as 6-8db+ between 125 and 400hz.
> 160 and 200hz typically being the highest peaks regardless of speaker location.
> 
> No EQ or processing would be IDEAL in any situation, but realistically bc of the close proximity of highly reflective surfaces, coupled with absorptive surfaces plus off center and axis seating positions etc...means a vehicle is a terrible place to expect "ideal" system response from speakers.
> 
> YES it is possible to custom design passive networks to compensate for frequency response in car, but its very time consuming and alot of trial and error and can be accomplished easier via digital signal processing much easier.


I agree with everything you are saying here.

However, again I would say that built in peaks and valleys are fine, just depends on where they're at. If you say there's an 8 dB peak between 160-400 hz, I won't disagree with you. However, the only EQ I've ever done in a car is bass/treble from the stock head unit (bass centered at 100 hz, treble at 10 khz), and I've gotten good enough results from just cutting treble.

Was the car perfect? No, but it sounded great and the only deficiencies were in frequencies much higher than midbass/lower midrange. Meanwhile I listen to cars with big cuts in those areas and they are lacking midbass punch. 

The real problem frequencies in car audio are the high ones...because of all the glass in the car creating havoc. I believe 3-4khz as a general rule can be cut.

BTW, as much as it seems criminal to have the midbass hump in car audio, it's far better (i.e. more musical and natural) than having a subbass hump, which a lot of guys on this forum seem to go for (e.g. dual 15s/18s, etc).

In the end you have to know that I'm going on the record to say that car and home audio are actually supposed to be different. I respect the idea of a flatter home audio type sound in a car but it doesn't really translate well....it's a different mentality altogether. 

Vu agrees and this guy has the most elite ears in all of audio I know.


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## Oliver

FG79 said:


> I tend to follow my buddy Vu's advice without questioning it.


Vu may not be in the same league as Eric .


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## minbari

not to mention if you learn something about the subject, you wont always need advise  even Eric was not born an expert


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## FG79

Oliver said:


> Vu may not be in the same league as Eric .


Vu's got a gift. He's in the same league as anyone when it comes to tonal related matters. 

Probably the biggest gift is doing all of this stuff with ears. He even does room arrangements strictly by feel, and his other senses play a role in this which is a bit freaky, lol. 

Here's an article written about 10 years ago on high end and he's mentioned in the middle by "Doctor Soundgood":

Sound Crazy? (washingtonpost.com)

The $60k system that let him down:

Wilson 



If anyone is in the DC area, I recommend you drop by the store. Great guy, fun environment. Good times to be had if you like sound.


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## TokoSpeaker

If you truly legitimately do not like this sound with your ears, that's fine. But if you're tuning down this region because you read that's what's supposed to be done, then I advise you listen first. 
You mentionned that you listenned to a few HLCD in a home setup but have you already used HLCD in a car and liked them without an EQ? Eagerly waiting for an answer on that one...

I didn't find any answer from FG79.
I am curious want to know FG79's anwer.


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## FG79

TokoSpeaker said:


> If you truly legitimately do not like this sound with your ears, that's fine. But if you're tuning down this region because you read that's what's supposed to be done, then I advise you listen first.
> You mentionned that you listenned to a few HLCD in a home setup but have you already used HLCD in a car and liked them without an EQ? Eagerly waiting for an answer on that one...
> 
> I didn't find any answer from FG79.
> I am curious want to know FG79's anwer.


I already said I haven't heard an un-EQ'd horn car. Look up a few posts.

Your wording suggests a massive rebuttal waiting to come, lol.


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## minbari

FG79 said:


> I already said I haven't heard an un-EQ'd horn car. Look up a few posts.
> 
> Your wording suggests a massive rebuttal waiting to come, lol.


that was the worst rebuttal ever! I was expecting a $hit storm! very disappointed  [/sarcasm]


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## Horsemanwill

imo here's where things are different. the system that you linked to was for a home audio system. while home audio does sound great and may be hard to tune it's no where near as difficult as a car. there's alot more to work on and around in a car.


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## FG79

minbari said:


> that was the worst rebuttal ever! I was expecting a $hit storm! very disappointed  [/sarcasm]


LOL.

I'm very disappointed at the fact that I've had the Grand National USD horns sitting in my closet for a few years now with no car to put them in!

As far as the debates go, I'd gladly pull out to speed up the process.


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