# Old School VS New Tech



## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

I recently read in "Performance Auto & Sound" also known as PAS, that old school equipment is no where near as good as new equipment of today. Also stated how old equipment cannot match to new technology in newer amplifiers. It did mention though that there are VERY FEW old school amplifiers that can still match to todays equipment. 

SO am very curious to know what are does brands/models of amps. Am guessing: McIntosh,Butler,Linear Power. Since they use higher quality components compare to those old school Rockford/Clarion/Orion/PPI that use cheaper components (same as being use now a days).

Please any info is appreciated. Thanks.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I dont know about that, they had better build quality back in the day


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Ask Stephen Mantz what he thinks. The answer, I bet, will be enlightening.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Notice how they stole tomtomjr.'s pics too?


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> Ask Stephen Mantz what he thinks. The answer, I bet, will be enlightening.


x2! I'll watch this one.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

O/S RF, Orion and PPI all used HQ components, at least in the top lines(Power, HCCA, PC) Cant speak for Clarion, never used them. I think that article is ********. Old amps may not be able to generate 3 kilowatts of power, But usually have quite an edge in reliability. I would say that in headunits, they are more on track, due to eq's, T/A, Xovers all being built in now.


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## finfinder (Apr 15, 2006)

Well, lets see... if the article said old school stuff was better than the cheap disposable japanese/chinese/malaysian/korean made crap they are trying to sell nowadays what would PAS' advertisers sell ? Hint .... follow the money.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

finfinder said:


> Well, lets see... if the article said old school stuff was better than the cheap disposable japanese/chinese/malaysian/korean made crap they are trying to sell nowadays what would PAS' advertisers sell ? Hint .... follow the money.


This is why I suggested we ask Zed, because the company takes in old gear, fixes it, and also makes new gear. And does it right, no less.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

finfinder said:


> Well, lets see... if the article said old school stuff was better than the cheap disposable japanese/chinese/malaysian/korean made crap they are trying to sell nowadays what would PAS' advertisers sell ? Hint .... follow the money.


Times eleventyjillion.

Money talks, ******** walks


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Yeah I notice how they stole TomTomJr pic. I also notice how I've seen all those pictures before from different collectors. Thank god they didnt show my collection of 18 LP amps.

Am just wondering because I know Linear Power amps sound just as good as now a days amps but I think LP still have better SQ and power rating. They never overrated their amps. Thats something all new companies/brands cannot do today. Due to dumb people that think they're going to get 3000watts out of a pyle amp or a boss amp. 

And still think its cool how they used TO3's instead of the cheap stuff.


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## Miguel mac (Sep 28, 2009)

I have a signat Ram-bo amplifier, the sound is great, I would not change for the new school amps, to get better sound would have to spend more than twice


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

The article was poorly written imo. Not to be mean but the guy sounds like a douche.


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## smithee419 (Aug 27, 2008)

Look at people that have been into car audio for years, let's just say 10+ years like myself (18 years), what do most of them use today? To me new stuff just dosent compare to the oldschool stuff-mainly amps, with exception of headunits, and some speakers. I've tried some expensive newer amps and speakers and was left not satisfied. Went back to oldschool and couldn't be happier. In fact doing a total reinstall this winter with oldschool zapco amps. That's just my 2 cents on the subject.


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## finfinder (Apr 15, 2006)

My problem is that "new tech" has not produced a better sounding amplifier.
Every frickin year they come out with so called new technology, .. every.. frickin.. year.

Yes, I know that amps are not supposed to have a sound. They are supposed to amplify the signal that is fed to them with as little audible distortion as possible. Period. But I have yet to hear a new school amplifier that is audibly better at amplification. I see new class D stuff that is tiny, but I don't buy an amp by size. I see less current draw, but that doesn't translate into better sound by itself. I see fancy digital onboard crossovers and filters, but twenty years later I'm still waitin on a better sounding amp. 

For me its not old school vs new tech, its new sound vs old sound, and if their ain't much difference, does the technology matter.

Power has gotten cheaper, its just not audibly better. I wonder if the guy who wrote the article would be willing to bet that he could hear the difference between an old school amp and a new one.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

I personally dont see the point in all the crap they throw onto the amps today. I am about to run 2 1990something Adcoms that are BEASTS but rated at 40x2. They are clean, effecient and do EXACTLY what I want them to do in a way they should without all the fancy crap and rated properly. I dont think I have bought a new amp in 6 years and before that I was running an old 1980's PPI ProMos 50, that I bought new, that had let the magic smoke go by bye. When I did buy in 03 it was 4 Aura RPM2300's which are pretty basic amps that are properly rated with nothing added but a basic HP/LP filter and a gain control. I still have them and they have gone back in the boxes for a later date.


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## 126db91stang (Nov 7, 2009)

I imagine that most of the old school nostalgia comes from...well...nostalgia. Generally i think everything is designed better now and not to put down MADE IN USA, but the imported stuff is so much better than it was. But you know...the MADE IN USA gear is also better than it was. But you have to compare apples w/ apples. An entry level amp bought now or 15 years ago will give you entry level performance. "Good" gear usually costs more, but does not mean you have to spend a lot to get good sound. But really, we should all try to buy American to begin with, but sometimes you can't. There are so many perspectives to this subject but in the end you should try to buy American and if you are into gear...have fun, do your homework and spend wisely in order to get the results you want. Just realize that most of the time marketing and advertising sells gear and you have to sift through it all to get descent stuff. If you don't really care about gear then average stuff will generally be...well....good. That being said...I just got a used 'old school' Hifonics Zues Series VII to match my 'old school' Hifonics Series VII Thor which was bought new 'back in the day'. Very happy gear head here.


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## smithee419 (Aug 27, 2008)

Good score with that Zeus, now here's the question Why didn't you buy new stuff?


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## 126db91stang (Nov 7, 2009)

Well, I guess it was a combo of things. Nostalgia, looks to match the Thor I had, and I KNOW it will kick ass since I have hands on experience with that series. Another thing is I know the wattage "specs" are different now but didn't really want to research it. I wanted a bump in power and see if it will make the subs hit a little lower and more cleanly...is that a word? And if I went w/ a new amp...would I know if there really was a wattage increase w/o having a really good understanding of the ratings... which I don't. Thanks...its sweet. Hope it works! Next time I get an itch to buy its Olympus. Old things rock okay...you got it out of me!!!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Hopefully after income tax I can do my install. I have the subwoofers and amplifiers, just need a good headunit and some good door speakers. But my install is going to be mostly old school stuff (3 Linear Power amps, 2 12's Strokers, Linear Power PA-II and XO-2). Hope to find a good old school head unit (if not am going to have to with a new one). Cant wait to hear it. Since most of my other install were only todays equipment and some were very poorly designed.

My first amp was a Lanzar amp (new versions, that sucked and way overrated) and a pair of Audiobahn 12's (terrible looking and SQ was awful). From there I moved up the chain to some MTX, Xtant, Rockford and there was improvement compare to cheap brands. But my last bad impression was on a JBL 1200.1 GTI (not sure if it was GTI or GTO) but it was rated at 740watts RMS at 4-ohms, well I hooked a Cerwin Vega Stroker (4-ohms single 1000watts) and within 20 minutes the amplifier blew up in smoke and was extremly hot. From there on, I am not buying new amps that state something and perform less. Especially after testing the same subwoofer (even two Strokers) to one Linear Power 2502IQ and the sound was amazing, bass was like a theater. Come on a 250watt old school amplifier pushing two 12's Strokers and sound was good was incredible. Try that with any new amplifier and I bet they will get hot or pull crazy amounts of current.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

I think a case can be made for some progress, especially in high-end head units and driver materials. But, the only _real_ breakthru's in amp design seems to be in the class D area. Of course power is alittle less expensive nowadays because all the imported stuff is assembly line/robotic creations. But, modern a/b amps are exactly the same as they were 15+ years ago with the possible exception of quality parts. Most really good (not entry level) Orion, LP, Phoenix Gold, PPI, US Amps stuff from yesteryear were built like tanks and most to military spec. That is a rarity today.
Modern equipment also suffers from the bad reputation that most imported amps, subs and components were all basically crap for a long time. It's a stigma that is only now starting to fade away. 
And don't ever try to tell a guitar player that a tube amp doesn't sound better than all solid state. Amps do not all sound the same.


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## smithee419 (Aug 27, 2008)

It's like I heard before, it seems all they want to do is make amps smaller. I want to see these company's actually make an amp sound better. Sure I'm all for smaller amps, I just don't see to many amps of today that are the same quality as oldschool amps. Back in the oldschool era there were soo many good amps. But today's amps are all about how much power can you put in the smallest packages. I know that there are good amps of today just not many! I hope I'm not offending anyone.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

All I know is nostalgia plays a big factor in making one choose old school gear. I fell into that trap myself only to have my eyes opened by an electrical engineering friend of mine.

One of the major pros to owning an old school amplifier is many of them are easy to service yourself, assuming you have the proper tools. The only downside is some of those old school amplifiers have no modern day equivalent FETs to replace the old ones.

Rather than trashing a certain brand that I used to own, I'll just say that I am glad that I have seen the light of the moon. Well that, and they are made in the USA just 23 minutes away.


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## 126db91stang (Nov 7, 2009)

Looks like the makings of a good system Jean. I wasn't going to post again but PPI brought up kinda what I was thinking. Head units might be a bit better now, more quiet. But of course you can get a great clean sound w/ a GOOD older HU too. Try an older HU...probably could get something that was 500 back in the day for like 100...right? Then swap out when you want to get something new. 

But PPI, as far as tubes/solid state....that certainly was true years ago but I don't think so now, big topic...whew...and I do have plenty of guitar gear as well. New guitar gear is crazy..meaning solid state. With amp modeling, processing power and all it really is off the hook. What still is true is the value of quality...you could have modern processing, modeling but still have the output be noisy if its is bottom of the barrel gear. But having said all that...once again...I love my all tube Carvin combo. Wouldn't trade it for nuttin.


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## 126db91stang (Nov 7, 2009)

What brand is that 'new school'mustangGT?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

126db91stang said:


> What brand is that 'new school'mustangGT?


Lunar Amplifiers


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

I think newer amps are more flexible, but i don't think that it means they are better per say. That's like saying a minivan is better than a accord because it has a fridge in it. 

I've been into car audio since '90 and i have a special place in my heart for old school equipment, but there is nothing from that time frame that will do what this Leviathan can do for me and fit in it's footprint...not even close.


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## uber_noob (Dec 12, 2009)

I believe Mcintosh A/B amps sported .005 THD back in the day. who can beat that today?


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Lunar Amplifiers


I think MustangGT was mentioning Linear Power. 

Just got an email from ZED concerning the topic. I read one of his article (well I think is one of the manuals for his new amps). And I did get a little bit of new knowledge but then again it seems that everyone in the audio has their own opinion. 
For example, he mentioned how TO3's can dissapate 250watts, but they sound bad. Dont TRU still use TO3s in their amps, and some of the HIGH END Home stereos used TO3's (not to mention how their still being used today,in other words bulletproof). Also read that HeadRoom is a waste and goes to show how bad an amplifier power supply is designed if it has headroom. That drove me round and round, I though headroom was good and needed for a reliable amplifier. I dont know about yall, but I would rather run my amplifiers at 60%-70% of their capabilities than running them +90%. ZED amplifiers have 0, ZERO, ZIP, NADA HeadRoom.

One thing I do extremly agree is that there is no reason to hook any (by any I mean ZED, LP, hi SQ amps) amplifier with loads less than 4-ohm. I know some people out there think its cool that they have a 1-ohm stable amplifier, but thats just stressing out the amp, pulling crazy loads of current, and suffer SQ.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I think MustangGT was mentioning Linear Power.


Come on man, that is not a "new school" brand.:laugh:




Jeanious2009 said:


> One thing I do extremly agree is that there is no reason to hook any (by any I mean ZED, LP, hi SQ amps) amplifier with loads less than 4-ohm. I know some people out there think its cool that they have a 1-ohm stable amplifier, but thats just stressing out the amp, pulling crazy loads of current, and suffer SQ.


I am going to have to disagree with you regarding not running a subwoofer amplifier at less than 4 ohms. You have my old blue Linear Power 5002 that I used at 8 ohm on a JL Audio 13w6v2 subwoofer in my 2006 Mustang GT. I noted no significant differences in sound quality, on a subwoofer, between that amplifier at 8 ohms and a laundry list of others that I ran at 2 ohms on that sub. 

ALSO, if you plan on using that 5002 to power your subwoofer, I hope you beef up your electrical system because that baby can suck some juice. Let's just say that a 160 amp alternator with an Optima Red Top was NOT enough!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Come on man, that is not a "new school" brand.:laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I plan on doing that, getting a Red Top and a hi amp alternator. Might just get 2 red tops, or a kinetic battery.

But am going to use two 2502IQs (one for each 12" Stroker) and a 1502IQ (For my 6x9 or component set). I'll just keep that 5002 for another install or just collection. I do now have two 5002's and that 5002IQ that need TLC. But I know what you mean by hooking subwoofers lower loads since its kinda hard to hear the SQ since its only a small Fhz range.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

uber_noob said:


> I believe Mcintosh A/B amps sported .005 THD back in the day. who can beat that today?


Zuki can beat that


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

Who cares about THD. All you do is keep the gain low and a properly designed amp will have low THD. All this allows you to do is have more power when you are at a more realistic 1%+ THD with gains set by ear.


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## marko (Jul 10, 2006)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I Also read that HeadRoom is a waste and goes to show how bad an amplifier power supply is designed if it has headroom. That drove me round and round, I though headroom was good and needed for a reliable amplifier. I dont know about yall, but I would rather run my amplifiers at 60%-70% of their capabilities than running them +90%. ZED amplifiers have 0, ZERO, ZIP, NADA HeadRoom.


i don't get how a zeus viii with 300+ per channel cannot have headroom, say if you were powering midbass 

what makes zed have no headoom???


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

marko said:


> i don't get how a zeus viii with 300+ per channel cannot have headroom, say if you were powering midbass
> 
> what makes zed have no headoom???


Well here is the exact words from a ZED manual.

"Headroom - This term does not refer to how much room there is above your head! Rather it is a specification that signifies how good or bad the power supply is. Zed Audio has NEVER quoted a headroom specification. Why you may ask? Simple our amplifiers have no headroom, zero dB, zip dB, nada dB however you say it. A regulated power supply does not allow the amplifier to have any headroom. A quote from a well respected designer who said that amplifiers with many dB of headroom simply have poorly designed power supplies, either through ignorance or to save costs. When one sees a specification of an amplifier quoting a headroom figure of 3dB this means that the droop of the power supply is such that when unloaded it is capable of twice the power as compared to it’s loaded condition.

So a 100w/ch amplifier running into 4 ohms must develop 20 volts across the speaker terminal. This requires a net (under load) rail voltage of about +/- 33 volts. Now for it to have 3dB of headroom it must be capable of delivering 28.28 volts across the speaker terminal. This requires a rail voltage of +/- 43 volts. So the above power supply will droop a total of +/- 10 volts (a 23% droop!). This puts additional stress on the output devices (Mosfets or Bipolars) because they still have to deal with this higher rail voltage . To us this kind of power supply sounds like the amplifier is “breathing” and not the kind of amplifier we want to listen to. Regulated power supplies are more expensive to manufacture, are less efficient but we feel those are tradeoffs we can live with!"
Some of yall might want to read this and let me know if you agree or not? This is not bashing or trashing one brand over another, I just want to hear everyones opinion. I never had or used a ZED amp, maybe they dont need HeadRoom, but in my opinion, I would always want to have those 2-3db headroom for that loud boom that comes different songs. I know movies have that scary part that all of a suddent it goes from quite to super loud, and I know you might not always watch a movie in your car, but if you do or would, I know that headroom is nice.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

FYI, many of those Linear Power amplifiers that I sold to you *DO NOT* have the headroom that was advertised back in the day per the owner's manual. Ask me how I know this.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> FYI, many of those Linear Power amplifiers that I sold to you *DO NOT* have the headroom that was advertised back in the day per the owner's manual. Ask me how I know this.


I do know that most of the rating on Linear Power amps back in the day, where made up by using math formulas. Dont know if they do have the headroom or not. I do remember how Ray told me that most LP amps have 2-3db headroom. And the only LP amps that do state headroom are the DPS and the HV series.

I dont have any DPS nor any HV, all the ones I have the new lowprofile amps that came in different colors (the IQ's and non IQ's). Either way it goes, after testing two cerwin vega strokers (1000watt RMS subwoofers) to just one LP 2502IQ was pretty frekin nice. The 2502IQ got a little warm but not hot, also it sounded way better than my recently amps (JBL 1200.1BP, Rockford 500a2,JL 500/2). All I can say is show me a 250watt amplifier (of todays technology) that can push two 1000watt subwoofers and still sound nice, WITHOUT BLOWING UP.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I will say this though... it is worth it to get the Servo mod for the 5002 or any other amplifier that it is offered for if you are going to use it/them to power subwoofers! I don't know what it is about servos, but I just like them!

Back to the 3 dB thing. Some of those amplifiers could NOT make rated power under load with one channel driven on 14.5 volts of input. IMHO, if they can't make rated power, there is NO WAY they will make enough power for 3 dB of headroom.


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## felix509 (Dec 17, 2006)

Amplifiers... IMO, the new technology has been toward efficiency more than sound quality.. The ability to built a modestly powered system without upgrading the alternator/batteries/etc.. it is a huge bonus... 

Preamps and headunits... due to the reduced price in components, a very good quality piece can be had for a fraction of what it cost 15 years ago.. 24bit D/A converters and DSP are a norm and don't kill the pocket book.. It is due to more available technology off the shelf and also mass production, think iPOD, not for sq, BUT FOR amount of parts made and how it could drive prices down..

Myself, i use new headunits/processors and older amps... just my 2 cents....


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## kp89gt (Dec 11, 2009)

The biggest debate should be between regulated and unregulated power supplies.

Old school rules.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

kp89gt said:


> The biggest debate should be between regulated and unregulated power supplies.
> 
> Old school rules.


I agree.

LP uses unregulated power supplies. Some say regualted power supplies are the best way to go, and better. I personally dont know the difference. So any comments on this topic would also help out.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Generally with unregulated power supplies, the more input voltage you can feed an amplifier, the more power it can make. Remember some of the old school companies that rated their unregulated amplifiers at 11.5 volts with a distortion level of .05 or even .005%? Feed them 14.4 volts and really watch them really crank out some power before clipping.

Amplifiers with regulated power supplies would generally make the same output power with an input voltage between 10.5 and 14.4 volts.

Again, this shouldn't be taken as the gospel because we all know that certain elements regarding performance in the real world aren't all peachy. Without a industry standard of measurement, can we really believe what was printed on the paper in the late 80s, early 90s? If so, look at the reported power output figures in the attachment that I still have yet to remove: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/868442-post1479.html With 12.5 volts of input, some of those amplifiers DID NOT make their rated 12.5 volt output. 

Regardless, whether we deal with old school or new school, some of it is about performance, and some of it is marketing hype and BS. With that said, if something works for you, stick with it. If it doesn't work, dump it and try something else. After all, it is just car audio.


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## marko (Jul 10, 2006)

well i was always under the impression that headroom was about having way more power than you ever wanted for yor speakers 

i understand what zed are trying to get accross and they always bash the likes of pg for having "bad" power supplies in their amps but pg are still some of the best amps i ever heard/owned from an sq point of view and also power output. and that's coming from someone who owns 12 zed amps


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

marko said:


> well i was always under the impression that headroom was about having way more power than you ever wanted for yor speakers
> 
> i understand what zed are trying to get accross and they always bash the likes of pg for having "bad" power supplies in their amps but pg are still some of the best amps i ever heard/owned from an sq point of view and also power output. and that's coming from someone who owns 12 zed amps


But, but... some of the old school manufacturers actually specified a "headroom" number at 2 to 3 dB.


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## freemind (Sep 11, 2008)

I just read the article today and, I mean REALLY? Give me an old school power-house without any X-overs, etc any day. My deck does all the processing I need(tho no L/R EQ).


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

Jeanious2009 said:


> For example, he mentioned how TO3's can dissapate 250watts, but they sound bad.


If you read the data sheets of a transistor that's packaged in both cases you will see that the heat dissipation is the only really big difference between the TO3's & TO220's. Also mounting & PCB design is MUCH easier with the TO220 case. Plus TO220's cost less, almost always. That is a big plus when you have to repair the outputs on a large amp that has 10 output transistors per channel. I also agree about the whole obsolete transistor thing. Every year some of the transistors that they used back then are getting harder & harder to find. The same part or an equivalent. Same with the emitter resistors. OMG some of them are almost impossible to track down.

As far as old school vs. new school... I'm an "old school" guy but some of the newer amps do have advantages. Again it just depends on the amp & application. Regulated power supplies are better for most people because it makes the amp not drop output when you, say turn your rear defroster on or use some high current draining accessory like that.

Still though, made in USA means a lot to me. As far as imports, the Korean built amps are better made. I also like an amp that looks good & most of the amps being made now just look stupid. At least though we seem to be coming out of that whole awful fast & furious fad.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

ghostmechanic said:


> If you read the data sheets of a transistor that's packaged in both cases you will see that the heat dissipation is the only really big difference between the TO3's & TO220's. Also mounting & PCB design is MUCH easier with the TO220 case. Plus TO220's cost less, almost always. That is a big plus when you have to repair the outputs on a large amp that has 10 output transistors per channel. I also agree about the whole obsolete transistor thing. Every year some of the transistors that they used back then are getting harder & harder to find. The same part or an equivalent. Same with the emitter resistors. OMG some of them are almost impossible to track down.
> 
> As far as old school vs. new school... I'm an "old school" guy but some of the newer amps do have advantages. Again it just depends on the amp & application. Regulated power supplies are better for most people because it makes the amp not drop output when you, say turn your rear defroster on or use some high current draining accessory like that.
> 
> Still though, made in USA means a lot to me. As far as imports, the Korean built amps are better made. I also like an amp that looks good & most of the amps being made now just look stupid. At least though we seem to be coming out of that whole awful fast & furious fad.


Yep, today they have a bunch of weird looking amps. JL Audio still makes them look the same (new vs old). But other companies come out with a UFO look and too much chrome. Back in the day most of all the amps look the same, with the same heatsink design.


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## 126db91stang (Nov 7, 2009)

thanks for posting the Monster article. I HAD several years worth of those magezines. My mom threw them out when I moved out. and that's all I have to say 'bout that. I think I'll search for a thread or maybe post to ask if anyone know's of an index which lists when gear was tested and which magezines.



felix509 said:


> Amplifiers... The ability to built a modestly powered system without upgrading the alternator/batteries/etc.. it is a huge bonus...


Are newer amps that more efficient? I'm sure there are threads that are devoted to discussing that. That really is a huge benefit to not have to "worry" about adding watts to your system as much. I have a optima yellow top and I believe a 140 amp upgraded alternator, but I still have to do some investigating to see if I can even hook up the Zeus I just got(600 w RMS). I thought there was the possibility that it would be too much.


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## 126db91stang (Nov 7, 2009)

ghostmechanic said:


> still though, made in USA means a lot to me. As far as imports, the Korean built amps are better made. I also like an amp that looks good & most of the amps being made now just look stupid. At least though we seem to be coming out of that whole awful fast & furious fad.


x's 2


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

^^^Agree completely. Same people that buy the flamed, LED and chromed amps put neon lighting under their cars & stickers on their big trunk-lid mounted wings.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

i want an amp with low THD at rated power, high DF, very wide frequency response with minimal variance (<1dB), and something with flexible controls. 

i also care about what they look like. i like simple and clean.

i'm running pre-mtx xtant for those reasons. there is a huge difference in specs after the takeover. they are older, but i love the styling and specs (and sound obviously). i love the separate input gain and output gain. the crossover SIPS aren't that annoying and if you run active they don't matter.

i think amps are an exception to the rule. there are some great amps now but there are a lot of amazing amps out of production. amps can age fairly well.

speakers don't age very well, IMO. granted, if properly stored and used they can last decades. my superman OZ speakers are good, but i could buy better new. 

i am also glad the chrome-go-faster/louder fad is mostly done.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I remember an article from Car Audio and Electronics in the late 80s (or early 90s) where Robert Zeff made the comment that "Amplifiers were forever". Basically he was implying that the amplifier was one of the things that could ALWAYS be brought forward into another vehicle install, whereas the subwoofer would need a recone, and the drivers in the doors would need to be replaced due to excessive water damage, etc. I really wish hurricane Rita hadn't ruined all my old magazines...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ghostmechanic said:


> If you read the data sheets of a transistor that's packaged in both cases you will see that the heat dissipation is the only really big difference between the TO3's & TO220's. Also mounting & PCB design is MUCH easier with the TO220 case. Plus TO220's cost less, almost always. That is a big plus when you have to repair the outputs on a large amp that has 10 output transistors per channel. I also agree about the whole obsolete transistor thing. Every year some of the transistors that they used back then are getting harder & harder to find. The same part or an equivalent. Same with the emitter resistors. OMG some of them are almost impossible to track down.


Why compare a TO3 to a TO220 when you can compare it to a TO3P?

I don't think TO3's sound bad, or any different than it's plastic package counterpart.... That's more crazy marketing for someone to assist someone in saying their **** is better.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I really wish hurricane Rita hadn't ruined all my old magazines...


Wow, Hurricane Rita! That's the forgotten hurricane for most of America; most powerful one ever in the Gulf. I'm in Lake Charles but got here after that storm.

End threadjack.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I remember an article from Car Audio and Electronics in the late 80s (or early 90s) where Robert Zeff made the comment that "Amplifiers were forever". Basically he was implying that the amplifier was one of the things that could ALWAYS be brought forward into another vehicle install, whereas the subwoofer would need a recone, and the drivers in the doors would need to be replaced due to excessive water damage, etc. * I really wish hurricane Rita hadn't ruined all my old magazines...*


I hope those amps I bought from you didnt get ruined by Rita. LOL


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I hope those amps I bought from you didnt get ruined by Rita. LOL


Nope, they sure didn't. The stuff ruined in Rita was in storage at my grandmother's house and I haven't lived there since graduating from college in 1996. Sadly, I had two storage trunks that had to be tossed after the hurricane in 2005.


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

freemind said:


> I just read the article today and, I mean REALLY? Give me an old school power-house without any X-overs, etc any day. My deck does all the processing I need(tho no L/R EQ).


+1 on that. I would like my amps to be a pure gain stage with all the proicessing done ahead of them. Most good head units like the Deh-p800prs, 9887, 8053, and the like have more than enough processing for the vast majority of people out there. If you need more them get an outboard processor.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

This is sort of related. I was reading an old ca&e mag. I had to laugh at the opening article about information that can be found on the internet being referred to as "stale" if it's more then 60 days old, as I checked the date on the now defunct mag from 2 years ago and thought about how retarded it all was.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

jonnyanalog said:


> +1 on that. I would like my amps to be a pure gain stage with all the proicessing done ahead of them. Most good head units like the Deh-p800prs, 9887, 8053, and the like have more than enough processing for the vast majority of people out there. If you need more them get an outboard processor.


Wire w/ gain.

That's what I wanted when I proposed the DIYMA forum try to engineer an amp for ourselves. Modular power supply system with wire w/ gain amp sections. Of course that never happened, but that's what I want.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

freemind said:


> I just read the article today and, I mean REALLY? Give me an old school power-house without any X-overs, etc any day. My deck does all the processing I need(tho no L/R EQ).


Why does it have to be 'old' to have those features - or lack thereof - ?
My amp is about 3 months new and is what you asked for ..


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Why does it have to be 'old' to have those features - or lack thereof - ?
> My amp is about 3 months new and is what you asked for ..


I'll take that Lunar L450 that I purchased from you over most old school 4x50 watt amplifiers seven days a week and twice on Sundays!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Cobranet or Dante?


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

chad said:


> Why compare a TO3 to a TO220 when you can compare it to a TO3P?


Umm because someone asked if there's a difference. TO220 was for the most part the standard case used for both output transistors & power supply transistors with exception to very few back when "old school" amps came out.



keep_hope_alive said:


> speakers don't age very well, IMO. granted, if properly stored and used they can last decades.


Tell that to my 13 year old Infinity Beta 10s & Soundstream SPL60 comps

When/if those Betas ever die, I'll be scavenging parts from any source I can find to get them going again. I love 'em. Probably more than my wife... yeah more than the wife. I can replace her

I feel the same way about my old ass Earthquake PA series amps. I've owned A LOT of brands of amps & these have just been the most reliable & best sounding of any I owned.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

to3P's are VERY VERY common in all amps, not just car audio.... soundstream and a handful of others were notorious for the "assload of TO220s" fad.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ghostmechanic said:


> Tell that to my 13 year old Infinity Beta 10s & Soundstream SPL60 comps


Green cone betas? or where the kappas green, **** I can't remember, but if it were the green ones I know of someone here with some that may want to sell.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Generally with unregulated power supplies, the more input voltage you can feed an amplifier, the more power it can make. Remember some of the old school companies that rated their unregulated amplifiers at 11.5 volts with a distortion level of .05 or even .005%? Feed them 14.4 volts and really watch them really crank out some power before clipping.
> 
> Amplifiers with regulated power supplies would generally make the same output power with an input voltage between 10.5 and 14.4 volts.
> 
> .



The issue with an unregulated design for a car audio amp is that we rely on voltage supplied by a battery, now that voltage rises and falls depending on demand and how quickly the Alternater can keep juice to it and the amp. So think of your amp and off it goes tryign to make a big dynamic drum hit, what happens to the required output power, it goes up what happens to current draw, it goes up, and what happens to supply voltage, it goes down so the end result is the amp can't draw the power it needs and actually ends up being choked of the power it requires to accurately produce that drum hit. This is a very very simple generalization since amps have things like internal capacitance that should look after it in cases like this, but capacitance can't make up for a steady power supply.

So this is justification for big batteries, big alternators and the such, but with modern cars space is is such a premium that bigger batteries and alternators aren't always such an easy task to achieve.

So what happens with a regulated design, drum hit comes along output power required goes up as does required current and down goes voltage, but because we are using a regulated design the amp laughs it off and just keeps making the required power or at least much closer to required then what the unregulated design will ever manage if it can't get the power. Thus enabling us a much more dynamic playback and greater realism.


Take this scenario into the home though and things become much more stable.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

I havent yet used a red or yellow top battery. My mother has one in her Tahoe and she usually likes loud thumps (not DEEP BASS) and she plays music for about 1-2 hours with the vehicle off and the battery doesnt drain.

So my question is to those who have used Optima batteries or any other hi-performance batteries such as: Kinetic, Xtatic (not sure if its spelled right). Which one is the best for and UNREGULATED amplifier. I already plan on getting a 120 or a 140 amp alternator. But dont know what battery to buy or how many. I am going to use 2 or 3 amplifiers.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Go with the flat mat AGM's... not the spiral cell ones.


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## KingDiamond (Apr 4, 2008)

The problem I found with the article was that he was mentioning the stuff from the 70's and early 80's as "old school", but he made no mention of PPI Art series or the amps of the 90's. Sure the stuff from the 70's was almost all complete crap. And of course he is going to support the new gear because all the advertisers in the magazine would be pissed off if he said the current gear isn't up to the standard it was in the 90's.

I think if you spend as much today on a new amp as a comparable old school amp cost back in the 90's then you'll probably have an amp of comparable quality. For example:

Year 1999:
Precision Power PowerClass PC2150 - $749

Year 2009:
Zapco Reference DC750.2 ~ $799


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks chad, I'll do some research on that.

The article did mention old school amps from the late 80's and early 90's. They specificly mention the Rockford Punch 75, and the Orion HCCA 225 models (circa 1987). And the only reason that magazine would even down-talk old school equipment is to advertise new equipment (thats my point of view, but I know I might be wrong). Just as they advertise a bunch of hi-performance batteries as all the best but never mention which one is really the best.

PS: OFF THE TOPIC, but has anyone ever tried or heard of HARRISONS LAB amps/supplys.


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

chad said:


> to3P's are VERY VERY common in all amps, not just car audio.... soundstream and a handful of others were notorious for the "assload of TO220s" fad.


There's nothing wrong with the TO-220s. Yeah the T-O3P & the TOP3 are pretty common in other amps but car amps? I've seen a few brands that used them. I've even replaced TO-247s SOT-93s with them but really common in car amps? Which is what I thought the discussion was about. I'm not being argumenative or claiming to be any kind of expert. Hell I looked back at my quoted post & maybe I just read the question wrong. Well I guess it wasn't a question even 

After working on several they all start looking the same anyway I've had 10 or more amps sitting here apart before that I was working on & when I go to make a parts list I forget which damn amp I'm even looking at:laugh:



chad said:


> Green cone betas?


No those are crap. And those were the Kappa's. The first "Perfect" I believe. I'm talking about the cast frame Betas that had the graphite injected cones that so many other companies copied after Infinity dropped them. I have a post in the freebie section somewhere that has pics of them. I'm too tired to care about finding that right now. Long day.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Parts lists suck, you will always forget something.


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Why does it have to be 'old' to have those features - or lack thereof - ?
> My amp is about 3 months new and is what you asked for ..


It doesn't. But there aren't too many that I can afford right now or can justify owning. I would love to own a Billet but its way beyond my budget.


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I'll take that Lunar L450 that I purchased from you over most old school 4x50 watt amplifiers seven days a week and twice on Sundays!


Aesthetics may not mean much to you but for me they are important and I would not own a Lunar for that simple fact.


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

chad said:


> Go with the flat mat AGM's... not the spiral cell ones.


I agree with you but I get such a smokin deal on Optimas. That is why I use them exclusively. We are trying to get AGMs here but the supplier hasn't come through with a deal yet to get them.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jonnyanalog said:


> *Aesthetics may not mean much to you* but for me they are important and I would not own a Lunar for that simple fact.


I used to own Linear Power amplifiers, if that tells you anything. Of course, you couldn't GIVE me one to use now, but I used to like them, or so I thought.:blush:


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

I have used older and newer technology and to me they all sound the same. Yeah newer technology may be a little more advanced however many of the companies must keep making new products to stay in business. For me it comes down to looks, performance and features. My ears cannot hear the difference in old vs new technology.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Can someone give me a link to the article?


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

chad said:


> Parts lists suck, you will always forget something.


Or several somethings. What sucks is the friggin shipping costs when you do. So then you have to either suck it up & pay way more because you forgot something or wait til you order again. So that amp(s) sits until then.


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## freemind (Sep 11, 2008)

cleansoundz said:


> Can someone give me a link to the article?


You will have to drive up to Park La Brea to get a copy and man, traffic is gonna suck:laugh:

I tried to find it on the site but couldn't. You can hunt around a little if you want to, Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Home


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## k-ink (Dec 20, 2009)

Personally I will have the best of both worlds when my new system is finished. 

NEW:
A new top flight HU with inbuilt TA & EQ (Possibly Pioneer or Clarion HX-D2). Plus the latest front components from HAT and CDT. 

OLD:
As for the old school, I have some NIB SQ style subs from Celestion, which are nice and accurate and highly sensitive. Plus a rack full of "as new" condition Phoenix Gold MS amps. These have awesome SQ ability, (plus they can be repaired by hand, in the unlikely event they need it. No SMT here!)

This for me will be an ideal setup. Choosing the best tool for the job, imho. Ok, with a little nostalgia thrown in too


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ghostmechanic said:


> Or several somethings. What sucks is the friggin shipping costs when you do. So then you have to either suck it up & pay way more because you forgot something or wait til you order again. So that amp(s) sits until then.


It's always those 2 resistors or one cap I forget. Makes me insane. FORTUNATELY I have EE stores on campus to go to and an account there so I can pick almost any odds and ends up I need. But then it never fails that I forget to go to EE stores in the activities of the day and I live 25 miles from work :laugh:


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

keep_hope_alive said:


> i want an amp with low THD at rated power, high DF, very wide frequency response with minimal variance (<1dB), and something with flexible controls.


I keep seeing people stress over THD and Damping factor. FR on most amps is 20-20k minimum, so moot point.

THD below 3% is inaudible. Damping factor is generally eaten up quickly by wire runs and resistance in connections. 

Why is everyone stressing over this? 


Being an O/S guy at heart.... 

I hate to say it, but I agree with the PAS writer for the most part. 

Reliability may have been the one thing that WAS better in SOME of the o/s amps. But with most of them being 15+ years old, I think that argument is out the window. 

The A300.2 that has occupied my WRX for the last 4-5 years is still going strong running my single 12" sub, although it's about to be replaced by the gear in my sig. It sounds great, and I doubt I could do much better with today's gear unless I wanted better efficiency or smaller size. 

I have dealt with a lot of the new product that seems to get bashed here on the forum. Every time I see someone make the statement that "brand X" no longer sounds good, and that they were better back in the day, it makes me shake my head. 

I'm currently working for a Rockford/JL Audio/Tru/Genesis/Focal/Morel/Eclipse/Kenwood dealer. I've been in car audio since I was 15 years old, which was back in 1992. Back then, many of my friends had hand me down gear that was built in the '80s. We graduated into stuff built in the '90's. 

I can say unequivocally that today's gear from the major manufacturers is not the "garbage" some make it out to be. I have an extremely low defect rate. Much lower than I remember there being 10 years ago. 

There are plenty of flea market brands, and bottom of the line gear out there, but I think most of us here already avoid that like the plague. 

I think some of us need a wakeup call, and need to snap back to reality. 

Good sound is not based on the year your gear was made...


*Edit

One thing that makes me really scratch my head are the plethora of guys on here who change gear for seemingly no reason. The ones who swap one 500 watt amp from reputable manufacturer out for another 500 watt amp from another reputable manufacturer. The ones who swap from deck to deck to deck for no reason other than to see something new. 

My recomendation for these guys is this: Stop stressing over equipment until you have stressed over tuning, placement, measuring equipment, processing, and fine tuning. 

It makes me crazy to watch people swap one good piece of equipment for another, over and over again, for no reason other than that it didn't give them what they were looking for the minute it was connected. 

Tuning, measurement, and processing would go a long way for these guys.

Maybe it bugs me most because I used to be one of them. The things you hate about other people are often the things that drive you crazy about yourself.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

Well said WRX/Z28,

The facts are the newer amps of resonable quality are better built and design then there cousins of yester year. 

As someone said the amps everyone wants from the old days were all high end gear, PPI Art's, Orion, Hifonics Zeus etc, SS, and so on, Now these amps all cost considerable money in there day. No one remembers the cheaper crap well because it was crap! Now if you went and spent the same amount of money that big old Orion HCCA cost you back in the day and purchased a new amp you will be getting a far superior amp for the same money. In effect amps have gotten not only better but cheaper, now I have no idea what the old PPI Art's cost but I imagine it was a considerable amount, now I'd put $10 on it that the same money today could get you something from the big guns today, TRU, DLS, Zapco, ARC, Genesis etc... So in the 15 years that have gone past since in this example of the Art, lots of things cost more food, power, water, medicine, insurance, housing, and so on, yet for the same money you can buy one hell of a nice amp with better specs more power, better efficiency and most likely better reliability then what you could buy 15years ago with the same amount of folding stuff.

Cars are much the same, look at what you could buy 10-15years ago for 30K now look at what you can get for 30k and try and tell me what you can buy today isn't as good as what you could get 15years ago. A good example is what you guys got as the Pontiac G8, now Holden have been building the Commodore (G8) since 1979, now back in the early 90's a base model commodore cost about 30k AUD, not in 2009 a base model Commodore costs about 33k, so in 15+ years the cost of that vehicle has gone up 3k and I can tell you right now the technology, the build quality and value for money is worlds apart today compared to say 1991 for that car. I can also earn almost twice as much compared to 1991, so in actual fact the cost of vehicles in relation to income has fallen significantly and so have amps.


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

chad said:


> It's always those 2 resistors or one cap I forget. Makes me insane. FORTUNATELY I have EE stores on campus to go to and an account there so I can pick almost any odds and ends up I need. But then it never fails that I forget to go to EE stores in the activities of the day and I live 25 miles from work :laugh:


Yep it's the small things like that that hold me up. Be THANKFUL for having a source like that. I have NO CHOICE but to mailorder everything. The only place local for any parts is Radio Shack now & they never carry anything close to what I need. We used to have a great parts store but it went out of business years ago. I miss that store.

As far as the topic of this thread... it's an argument that will never go away & I'd say that most opinions on either side are passionate enough that few will change their minds. Hell you can't even get people to agree on what's "old school". Some think anything 10 years old is old school. Some think that if it was made after the '80s it's not old school. I have my opions of what is & what isn't & I know what I feel is better. I doubt anyone will ever change that opinion either. I think besides nostalgia, one of the things that drives a lot of people to seek out older gear is price. No matter how you slice it, it's cheaper to buy top of the line gear that fits into your idea of old school than it is to buy top of the line new gear. Another thing is those old top of the line amps are already proven in our minds.



Luke352 said:


> Cars are much the same, look at what you could buy 10-15years ago for 30K now look at what you can get for 30k and try and tell me what you can buy today isn't as good as what you could get 15years ago.


I completely disagree with this statement. With inflation & all of the new Government mandates that come around every year, the car you got 15 years ago for $30K isn't going to be anywhere near the car you'd get today for the same money. Every year the prices of cars go up on each model. Things might be different down there, I don't know. Now that particuliar model might be better than it was 15 years ago but it's going to cost significantly more.


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## k-ink (Dec 20, 2009)

The price is an interesting point. I have sourced some as new old school amps that were hand made in the USA. A few things appeal. One of which is the price. I can buy four mint amps for the price of 1 or maybe 2 new ones, of equal hand made quality.

Now of course amps mass produced in China by a swarm of SMT robots will be cheaper. But what happens when the short warranty expires and they go wrong? The amp goes straight in the bin! Boards filled with surface mount technology cannot be repaired. In twenty years time none of this stuff from China will exist. It would have long been thrown away. Now that is not only wasteful to the planet, it's pretty damn poor for the consumer. But guess what, it's great for the manufacturers and dealers 

As they say "Buy cheap, buy twice". Or three times, or four times, etc etc...

I think the key should be HAND MADE. Whether it's old or new is less important.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

I think it does have to do with price. How some LP amps may have dropped 50% of their retail price back in the days to now. I do recollect those good old memories when my best friend showed me his brothers 2.2HV (and even then not many had heard of LP, because of their price) and I liked the sound and clarity of it. Now I see a few LPs real cheap and can't help but to buy them.

Its just all good memories. Some have them some dont. But me I rather install and o/s system (that was hi-end) than a new system. I just dont know, I hate how most brands overrate their amps (most rate them at voltages the amp will never see, 16v,18v, come on). Most cars will only do 14.4 and 12.6 off, we all know that. So why not rate the amps at a decent amount of volts like 12.6v, that way when you do turn on you car you know your going to get a bit more than rated. I do know that now most brands are certified before listing a wattage sheet, but some still arent.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I hate how most brands overrate their amps (most rate them at voltages the amp will never see, 16v,18v, come on). Most cars will only do 14.4 and 12.6 off, we all know that. So why not rate the amps at a decent amount of volts like 12.6v, that way when you do turn on you car you know your going to get a bit more than rated. I do know that now most brands are certified before listing a wattage sheet, but some still arent.


You can thank the CEA for that. Prior to the CEA, there really was NO standardization when it came to rating amplifiers. Some manufacturers would be honest and have samples of their products tested whereas others used mathematical formulas to determine their output printed on paper. Even today, one still has to be leery of the CEA figures because CEA is strict by using the 14.4 volts at 4 ohms with distortion less than 1%. These same manufacturers provide pipe dream numbers for 2 and 1 ohm loads and will NEVER realistically reach said output at the lower loads. Kenwood anyone?


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

I couldnt resist, some people say LPs are BS some say their the best. I just keep in mind how a lot of LPs still work after 15 years or more. Pretty much bullet proof if you ask me. This things are old and still work without problems, yeah you need a crossover but big deal. I got a 25 year old LP and still sound like new, then I got a 30 year old LP and also sounds great (a 3001, the DONs). How many amps you can say that work after so many years.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I couldnt resist, some people say LPs are BS some say their the best. I just keep in mind how a lot of LPs still work after 15 years or more. Pretty much bullet proof if you ask me. This things are old and still work without problems, yeah you need a crossover but big deal. I got a 25 year old LP and still sound like new, then I got a 30 year old LP and also sounds great (a 3001, the DONs). How many amps you can say that work after so many years.


BUT, how many of those amplifiers spent most of their lives in someone's closet or in a car stored in climate controlled storage most of that time frame? I hate to break it to you, but I can almost guarantee you that most, if not ALL, of your Linear Power amplifiers WERE NOT in someone's vehicle being used on a daily basis for all that time. If so, those 85 degree caps would be dried out by now and the amplifier would either sound weird OR not reproduce a sound at all.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

FWIW, 85 degrees C is 185 degrees F.... how hot does a trunk of a black car get in the summer?


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

I've noticed some interesting general trends in the subs over the years (particularly the mid level market). Xmax may be increasing, but so is Qts and Fs. And it's not uncommon to see a manufacturer now recommending vented alignments for subs that in a sealed box of the same recommended volume hits a Qb over 0.7 and sometimes 1.0.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> FWIW, 85 degrees C is 185 degrees F.... how hot does a trunk of a black car get in the summer?


I've heard of reported interior temperatures reaching 180 degrees F in Arizona and Nevada. I thought the most was 120 to 140 degrees F, so I would have to look into that further. 

Regardless, there is no way you are going to tell me that 20 to 30 year old amps are still going strong after being installed in a vehicle for all that time without having the electrolytic capacitors changed. Especially if said vehicle was in an area with moderate to severe temperatures. Now, if this amp was stored in a climate controlled environment, i.e someone's closet, I can see the electrolytic caps lasting a little longer than average.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> I've heard of reported interior temperatures reaching 180 degrees F in Arizona and Nevada. I thought the most was 120 to 140 degrees F, so I would have to look into that further.
> 
> Regardless, there is no way you are going to tell me that 20 to 30 year old amps are still going strong after being installed in a vehicle for all that time without having the electrolytic capacitors changed. Especially if said vehicle was in an area with moderate to severe temperatures. Now, if this amp was stored in a climate controlled environment, i.e someone's closet, I can see the electrolytic caps lasting a little longer than average.


I just got my Monolithic PA2000M back from Greg @ Monolithic. Sent it out to get a "once over" before putting back into storage. I have used this amp on and off for years (I believe the build date was '88, became mine in mid '90's) and everything checked out fine. I do live in an EXTREMELY moderate climate though so that helps. 

On a side note, I did always use a tip from Greg and mounted every large finned amps (Monolithic's, SS D200's, LP's etc) with the fins perpendicular to the floor and unobstructed. The heat will rise through the fins instead of being trapped between them and internal temps will be up to 40*F cooler than horizontal flush mounted fins/heat sinks.

As far as new vs old school goes, well it depends, & it depends on too many variables. Simple circiut vs complex(esp. build date of complex), heatsink efficiency, build house (quality), extras (x-overs etc). Of the amps that I listed above, the Monolithics were by far the most reliable & the LP's the least. I liked the D200's Series 1 once the turn on/off noises were fixed & they did pick up weird noises from time to time but Zed seemed to be able to fix this as well.

I don't have much exp. with new amps except that one of my friends manages a local shop so I get to hear what is "junk" and what seems to hold up. Same old adage here as well. Some of the top manufactures equipment is great (Audison for example with amps), some junk (Macintosh amps). You do get more extras with today’s equipment, but that is specific to install needs/personnel preference. I guess flip a coin, you can get good prices on O/S equipment that is great & sometimes easy to fix(if need be), or get more bang for the buck w/new stuff. Who really cares as long as you are happy with what you have.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

The 2121 that I have (which I have two) one is 25 the other one is 23 years old. And the 25 year old was in a BMW 6 series and the year of the vehicle was 86 so am pretty sure someone upgraded the cars system ASAP with that 2121. And it was taken out 4 years ago since the car was in a junk yard do to improper use, lol. But the amplifier still works.

I believe in a hot summer day in (Texas or Oklahoma) the tempetures can reach upto 95 degrees in a car's trunk it can be around or over 160 degrees but who's going to be listen to music in a 160 degree car???? Am pretty sure they'll turn it on, let it cool down then hop in and listen to music. So my guess is aslong as you do that your amp should be working just fine or caps still be fine for a long time.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

I think when looking at old school vs new school amplifiers the main differences is build quality vs abuse. From trying out some of today's amplifiers to me they sound really good. An amplifier is an amplifier. The differences are based on the user. If you get an person who uses the amp the way it was designed, then it will last longer than expected. A lot of idiots these days buy class D amps run them down to .05 ohms, or get class A/B amps and run them down to .05 ohms bridged listening to heavy rock or rap music 3 hrs per day. How long do you think these amps will last? The older amps had a stronger build quality that allowed them to withstand more abuse over time. The older amps would last a little longer. Now if you have a person who buys a newer amp, uses it the way it should be used and does not run it below recommended impedances, does not listen to a lot of rap or heavy rock and plays it at moderate volumes I see no reason why they shouldn't last like the older ones. 

I own older RF amps and newer RF amps and I like them both honestly. If I abuse the older and newer amps then neither one of them will be worth a crap. For me amps should not be replaced too often unless they just crap out or after five to ten years you just want something new. Amps to me have a personality. This means that there may be a specific year or model that just appeals to me and I like it. Same thing with cars. I like 1990-1996 300zxs, always have, always will. Yeah the new 350z's and 370z's are better I am sure they are but the personality of the car stands out to me more. Everyone has their favorite car and favorite amp. It just all depends on what a person likes plain and simple.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

When buying older amps, I have been lucky enough to find some either unused or little used amps? That is the key. If, a mint 9/10 condition amp from the late 80's and early 90's is in your possession with little to no use then it will be comparable to a newer amp in terms of condition. There are so many of older mint condition amps being sold on EBAY or craigslist it is unbelievable.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

My old-school babies, new to the family:



























Circa 1997


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Cleansoundz couldnt said it any better. The whole storing them in a closet also does add to the life spand of any amplifier. I have a few MINT LP's that are very old and look new unlike newer amps that get tossed around from vehicle to vehicle that makes them look very abused.

As far as Chris B (mustang) I understand his point of view. And I notice how some guy from Australia has a BMW X6 and is spending over 30K on his system. Now that I think is just plain dumb, you will always have road noise, weather noise, and loud motorcycles beside you that will anoy the hell out of you. I would rather spend 30K on a home system that is sound proof (trust me I know how to sound proof a room, I do it for a living).


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> Cleansoundz couldnt said it any better. The whole storing them in a closet also does add to the life spand of any amplifier. I have a few MINT LP's that are very old and look new unlike newer amps that get tossed around from vehicle to vehicle that makes them look very abused.
> 
> As far as Chris B (mustang) I understand his point of view. And I notice how some guy from Australia has a BMW X6 and is spending over 30K on his system. Now that I think is just plain dumb, you will always have road noise, weather noise, and loud motorcycles beside you that will anoy the hell out of you. I would rather spend 30K on a home system that is sound proof (trust me I know how to sound proof a room, I do it for a living).


Well you don't know what that guy has @ home - he might have a 300K system in his "Château"  

Kelvin


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I think it does have to do with price. How some LP amps may have dropped 50% of their retail price back in the days to now. I do recollect those good old memories when my best friend showed me his brothers 2.2HV (and even then not many had heard of LP, because of their price) and I liked the sound and clarity of it. Now I see a few LPs real cheap and can't help but to buy them.
> 
> Its just all good memories. Some have them some dont. But me I rather install and o/s system (that was hi-end) than a new system. I just dont know, I hate how most brands overrate their amps (most rate them at voltages the amp will never see, 16v,18v, come on). Most cars will only do 14.4 and 12.6 off, we all know that. So why not rate the amps at a decent amount of volts like 12.6v, that way when you do turn on you car you know your going to get a bit more than rated. I do know that now most brands are certified before listing a wattage sheet, but some still arent.


Who do you know that rates their amps at 16v or 18v? Other than flea market brands (which haven't changed since the O/S days)



Jeanious2009 said:


> Cleansoundz couldnt said it any better. The whole storing them in a closet also does add to the life spand of any amplifier. I have a few MINT LP's that are very old and look new unlike newer amps that get tossed around from vehicle to vehicle that makes them look very abused.
> 
> As far as Chris B (mustang) I understand his point of view. And I notice how some guy from Australia has a BMW X6 and is spending over 30K on his system. Now that I think is just plain dumb, you will always have road noise, weather noise, and loud motorcycles beside you that will anoy the hell out of you. I would rather spend 30K on a home system that is sound proof (trust me I know how to sound proof a room, I do it for a living).


30k in a vehicle is definately a little extreme, but think of it this way: Where do you listen to music most? My answer is "in the car". 

It annoys me when people on this forum talk about how you can't hear differences going 70mph, or can't hear differences because the car is noisy, or you can't hear differences because speaker placement sucks, or you can't hear differences because of the acoustic problems in a car. 

These same people seem to stress about their gear like there's no tomorrow, and yet they claim that it doesn't make a difference? What are you doing here then? Go be happy with your stock stereo since it all sounds the same, and your car makes it impossible to tell the difference at speed. 

IMO, the poor car listening environment is why you can hear the differences, and why people stress over setting up their sound system properly.

Car road noise usually only mask's your bass response. This is exactly why we have such powerful subs in the car. Have you ever noticed that while sitting still, your setup sounds pretty good with the sub turned down. As soon as you are moving, you wonder where all the bass went? This is the only range that has issues with road noise to that degree, and it's the easiest range to solve that problem. Simply buy a more powerful sub. 

These noise issues are why we often need "more power" and louder setups. It's so we can hear all the details over whatever noise get's in the vehicle. 

If you realize that the noise in your car is a problem, you should be working with dampener's and barriers to get it under control. Not complaining that you can't hear the difference in gear because the car is noisy. 

I'm telling you... if I hear one more idiot say "it doesn't matter when you're going 70mph in a car" just to justify their disinterest in making it better, or to "prove" that the little difference that is there isn't worth it, i'm going to SCREAM!  

What forum is this again!?!?!  :laugh:


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

If you just get a louder and louder system and turn it up just to overcome the road noise or any noise around you then you WILL GO DEAF. Its funny how a room (which doesnt have as many noise problems as a car) will get soundproof. I worked with WHISPERWALLS system and have soundproof many rooms/businesses. I also help build the "Warren Theater" in OKC and the walls had 3 layers of commercial 5/8" drywall. And were well braced, after drywall we had to cover the WHOLE walls with sound panels from whisperwalls. Just goes to show what you really have to do to get SQ and SPL, I dont think you can do that to a car, can you?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Jeanious2009 said:


> I dont think you can do that to a car, can you?


Andy Jones seems to think you can.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I do have one gripe when it comes to old school versus new technology. I started in car audio, roughly 21 years ago, and I was using RCAs. Except for a few manufacturers, we are STILL using RCAs. I think I had some of my first digital computer audio stuff in 1999 or 2000 and my 2007 DJ setup was capable of full out digital, yet in the 12 volt world, they are still using ancient RCA technology.

I believe the industry cares more about the high school basshead who buys the latest and greatest, blows it up, then repeats the buying cycle than they do about making a quality, state of the art, noise free product. 

One thing I will give new school technology versus old school technology is POWER per dollar. I can buy WAY more power for $1,000 today than I could in 1989!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> I believe the industry cares more about the high school basshead who buys the latest and greatest, blows it up, then repeats the buying cycle than they do about making a quality, state of the art, noise free product.
> 
> One thing I will give new school technology versus old school technology is POWER per dollar. I can buy WAY more power for $1,000 today than I could in 1989!


Yeah, back in the late 80's a 100watt amplifier would cost you atleast 500-600 bucks. And a 500watt amplifier would cost an arm and an a leg. Now you can buy 4000watts of pyle, boss, pyramid for less than a 150.00 (ofcourse if lightning strikes it first, even before that they sound like crap).


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## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

Jeanious2009 said:


> Yeah, back in the late 80's a 100watt amplifier would cost you atleast 500-600 bucks. And a 500watt amplifier would cost an arm and an a leg. Now you can buy 4000watts of pyle, boss, pyramid for less than a 150.00 (ofcourse if lightning strikes it first, even before that they sound like crap).


Yup......I spoke to Chuck Kenney (Soundstream National Sales Manager).

He told me the new Reference amps are BETTER than the original ones....


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## finfinder (Apr 15, 2006)

Maglite said:


> Yup......I spoke to Chuck Kenney (Soundstream National Sales Manager).
> 
> He told me the new Reference amps are BETTER than the original ones....


Define "BETTER". Will they sound better or just have more watts and xovers ?

Hint: He's a "NATIONAL SALES MANAGER", what would you expect him to say ?

If the new stuff is better, why do manufacturers keep doing remakes of the old stuff ?

More watts by itself is not enough, remember the Rockford 25 to life series disaster, they had "more watts" but didn't sell worth a damn.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

The new SS reference series better coming from someone who works at Soundstream?

Here is one for you. The initial frequency response plot of the "better" reference amplifiers came out rated to faithfully reproduce 20 Hz to 20 kHz with a +/- 3 dB variance. What happened? Some asked "How is this better?" and that spec was removed from the website and the product documentation. Better... Sure...


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

I have recently been looking at the MB Quart DSC series and am impressed both by their build quality and the number of positive reviews they are getting. These amps seem to be very solid performers that actually do more(stable into low impedances and under-rated power) than they are rated to do. But, even more amazing is their low cost. I have always prescribed to the motto that you get what you pay for. I know these Quart amps are built overseas but, they certainly seem to be a good deal. 
All of this from a very staunch fan of old school American made amps. Wierd, huh?


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## xxEMOxx (Sep 29, 2009)

This is a load of sh*t my buddy has an entire oldschool system that is under 500 total watts and it blows new stuff outta the water.

Maybe for price and profit margin old school gear does not fly cause it was built correctly and made to last, not run for a year then break and you gotta buy new stuff. BUT for S.Q. reliability and quality...... old school is my preferred way to go.

Article sounds like a Maxxsonic's funded marketing tool to me.


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## xxEMOxx (Sep 29, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> I do have one gripe when it comes to old school versus new technology. I started in car audio, roughly 21 years ago, and I was using RCAs. Except for a few manufacturers, we are STILL using RCAs. I think I had some of my first digital computer audio stuff in 1999 or 2000 and my 2007 DJ setup was capable of full out digital, yet in the 12 volt world, they are still using ancient RCA technology.
> 
> I believe the industry cares more about the high school basshead who buys the latest and greatest, blows it up, then repeats the buying cycle than they do about making a quality, state of the art, noise free product.
> 
> One thing I will give new school technology versus old school technology is POWER per dollar. I can buy WAY more power for $1,000 today than I could in 1989!



I am behind you 100% man, I work with alot of younger guys whom dont know any better, then are blown away by my car and the " no name ugly lookin amps and sh*t " also sadly all the digital crap mp3's and acc and all the compression on songs sound like ass. Find a CD from 1995 and then listen to the 2004+ remake on the same system, the warmth and fullness of the newer one is totally not present.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

Well, I use old school PPI amps in my daily driven truck and am still as happy with them as I was back in late 80's when I first got into car audio. But, I understand that time marches on and so does technology. You can't bemoan the continued use of RCA's and then turn around and denegrate modern equipment. I agree that signal cables and connectivity need to change but, I also believe there is some good equipment being made today and not all of it is being built in the US. At the same time, there will always be junk on the market, just like there was back in the late 80's. Real, clean watts per dollar have never been so affordable.


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## xxEMOxx (Sep 29, 2009)

True real clean power is more affordable then it has been in ever, but if you look at THD and signal to noise etc. its gone down down down.

MY P-2150 planet audio is rated S/N at over 100DB most amps i see now are like 78-85 at the most.

Thats pretty poor if you ask me.... as well its like the difference in sound quality of Vinyl to CD. Something about 38's and 45's just sound so much richer, fuller, and warmer then anything digitally encoded/compressed.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

keep in mind the way the S/N is measured is different from back then.. CEA-2006 params penalize more powerful amps with regard to S/N ratios.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey LPs have good S/N ratio and THD, lol. And yes I did notice a difference when I bench tested a LP and compared it to others from my pass (JBL, Rockford, Kicker) and the LP sounded way more deeper and richer bass. Yeah I said it bass, maybe it was the subs that I switched to??? Which are Cerwin Strokers (the old school ones, which I always wanted when I was a kid and never could afford them, now I have 8 of them  ).


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The ONLY difference I have noticed from one amp to another is "space" or depth of sound. It is that almost unquantifiable, unmeasurable thing that makes it interesting for me. I heard it immediately when I switched my RSd amps to those Rock USA (Zed) amps.

I played the system that morning. Pulled out the amps and slapped in the Rock USA's after about 20 minutes of rewiring. Then set the gains so my volume output was the same as I was used to, and listened. Immediately the stage of the Rock's was more coherent and wide at the same time, and much more full of "sparkle". I think I could attribute a difference in gain to the tweeter amp for the added sparkle, but I'm not so sure. I can say that I enjoy the new amps immensely, and feel that what was once a very laid-back if not slightly veiled system has a bit more pop and realism now. Is that a difference in gains between woofer and tweeter? Not so sure.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

A/B amp technology is as old as rocket science 

Consumer habits has changed. New school amps are nice. Not so sure if they are build to last...

I'm typing this listening to a nice album from Patricia Barber, Night Club, from the Mac to a New tech DAC, to a very old school marantz amp that sounds sweet... (nearly as old as patricia... 34 years... and going strong).


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Hernan said:


> A/B amp technology is as old as rocket science
> 
> Consumer habits has changed. New school amps are nice. Not so sure if they are build to last...
> 
> I'm typing this listening to a nice album from Patricia Barber, Night Club, from the Mac to a New tech DAC, to a very old school marantz amp that sounds sweet... (nearly as old as patricia... 34 years... and going strong).


Am pretty sure that new amps (as long as they have a reliable name) could last long aslong as the user doesnt over power it and keep it at a decent volume. Which now no one seems to do. I've been SPL free for a few months now, and I can't say I dont miss it otherwise I would be lying. I remember smoking some MJ in my car listen to loud bass songs and I remember the smoke just moving to the music.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I keep seeing people stress over THD and Damping factor. FR on most amps is 20-20k minimum, so moot point.
> 
> THD below 3% is inaudible. Damping factor is generally eaten up quickly by wire runs and resistance in connections.
> 
> ...


haha....somehow I think the only thing you forgot to say was my name.....haha....

but.....thanks anyway for informing me on some of the finer qualities of the eclipse 55090 cause I bought it......


about the topic....

I agree the old stuff was better in terms of reliability on a broad basis....I mean ...you can find 10+ year old amps on ebay still working after years of hell and they can be had cheap if you know what to look for...

I cant go to best buy and feel good about buying anything they sell and not feel it will burn up in less than 6 months....

I tried to buy some new current amps recently and quite frankly the Pioneer class A 100 x2 amp i tried after that was now 15 yrs old easily mopped the floor with the ED amps I had...

so I am now going to run 2 of them...and a PRS X340 ......

for what I paid ...I couldnt buy anything comparible in new amps ...if I did I would have half the channels


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Hernan said:


> A/B amp technology is as old as rocket science


older than rocket science.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> Hey LPs have good S/N ratio and THD, lol. And yes I did notice a difference when I bench tested a LP and compared it to others from my pass (JBL, Rockford, Kicker) and the LP sounded way more deeper and richer bass.


You do know that Linear Power amplifiers color the sound, don't you? Yes they do have a sonic signature and modifications further change that sonic signature. That is another reason why you ended up with roughly half of my collection.



Jeanious2009 said:


> I said it bass, maybe it was the subs that I switched to??? Which are Cerwin Strokers (the old school ones, which I always wanted when I was a kid and never could afford them, now I have 8 of them  ).


I know you were screwed on some strokers though. Were there any recones available or were you SOL from the dishonest seller?


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> You do know that Linear Power amplifiers color the sound, don't you? Yes they do have a sonic signature and modifications further change that sonic signature. That is another reason why you ended up with roughly half of my collection.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you were screwed on some strokers though. Were there any recones available or were you SOL from the dishonest seller?


Color sound..... try candy for ears, lol. And its crazy but half of your collection wasnt even one third of what it is now my collection.

Yeah there is this guy on egay that recones them for 125.00 (that includes the return S&H) and his been recomended from another guy that used his services already. Yeah he uses another cone, voice coil from another manufacture (rockford HX2) but it makes them look rare and weird looking. But they always looked weird, c'mon what other subwoofer used a piston and a spider as a dustcap??? 

And its only 1 subwoofer that needs recone, the rest work perfectly. The one that needs the recone I already took out the cone and spiders.


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## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

finfinder said:


> Define "BETTER". Will they sound better or just have more watts and xovers ?
> 
> Hint: He's a "NATIONAL SALES MANAGER", what would you expect him to say ?
> 
> ...


Can't be bothered to type the entire conversation I had with Chuck. Feel free to call him and talk to him in person.

I used to have an OS SS Continuum amp. Trying to see if I can get a listen to the new Reference amps.

So far...the reviews on the new Reference amps seem positive.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

xxEMOxx said:


> True real clean power is more affordable then it has been in ever, but if you look at THD and signal to noise etc. its gone down down down.
> 
> MY P-2150 planet audio is rated S/N at over 100DB most amps i see now are like 78-85 at the most.
> 
> Thats pretty poor if you ask me.... as well its like the difference in sound quality of Vinyl to CD. Something about 38's and 45's just sound so much richer, fuller, and warmer then anything digitally encoded/compressed.


Good observation, I never gave the S/N too much thought.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> The ONLY difference I have noticed from one amp to another is "space" or depth of sound. It is that almost unquantifiable, unmeasurable thing that makes it interesting for me. I heard it immediately when I switched my RSd amps to those Rock USA (Zed) amps.
> 
> I played the system that morning. Pulled out the amps and slapped in the Rock USA's after about 20 minutes of rewiring. Then set the gains so my volume output was the same as I was used to, and listened. Immediately the stage of the Rock's was more coherent and wide at the same time, and much more full of "sparkle". I think I could attribute a difference in gain to the tweeter amp for the added sparkle, but I'm not so sure. I can say that I enjoy the new amps immensely, and feel that what was once a very laid-back if not slightly veiled system has a bit more pop and realism now. Is that a difference in gains between woofer and tweeter? Not so sure.


I noticed the same observations in my system as well. Almost to the same description that you just given. I am having a hard time believing it myself. I won't say which amps but I switched over from ns RFosgate amps to os RFosgate amps my mids and highs have more pop and realism now. Both of my cars sound like concerts. I can hear every little detail in my music now.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

JAX said:


> haha....somehow I think the only thing you forgot to say was my name.....haha....
> 
> but.....thanks anyway for informing me on some of the finer qualities of the eclipse 55090 cause I bought it......
> 
> ...


It wasn't directed at you Mike, although you are a prime offender. :laugh: You're not the only one though. 

Best buy is now selling Alpine and Rockford stuff. I doubt any of it will "burn up in 6 months". The reason you can't feel good about it is simply because best buy doesn't hire people that care about this stuff like we do. That doesn't mean the stuff is junk, but rather the sales staff is less than enthusiastic about it, which leaves you feeling less than enthusiastic. 

I've used Rockford's Power series amps a lot. They easily make rated power, sound clean and open, and to date are bulletproof. Their P2-P3 T1-T2 subs sound great. You guys may not want to believe that the magical SQ fairy visit's them, but i've seen it, she does!

Alpine's PDX's are currently one of the best selling car amps for a reason. If they all blew up, I think Alpine would be in some serious trouble. I think if they sounded terrible, there wouldn't be so many people using them. Their top speakers are scan's. Their Type-X sub has been very well reviewed, and the Type-R's are pretty solid as well. Alpine has alway been regarded as top quality and great sound/control. 

Gear snobs are all over this forum. I guess i'm one of them with my large-ish old school collection. Maybe not though, because getting to deal with it on a daily basis, I realize there is a lot of new equipment that sounds great. 

I've bought the old gear for nostalgic reasons more than anything else. I mean come on, i'm never really going to be able to use it all. It's a collection of things that remind me of the hobby I love. Times have changed, and not as many people love it like we do. Some of us need to get out there and show people why it's fun, and get other people in to it. 

Create a new enthusiast today. This is what's going to keep our hobby alive.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Jeanious2009 said:


> c'mon what other subwoofer used a piston and a spider as a dustcap???


A) it's not a piston, it's simply a support for the secondary spider

B) Many drivers have used 2 spiders, Cerwinski's design just has to make the point obvious, which can be deemed correct, or incorrect... I'd personally rather have the 2 spiders below the cone... doing what they are supposed to be doing, CENTERING THE COIL.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

chad said:


> A) it's not a piston, it's simply a support for the secondary spider
> 
> B) Many drivers have used 2 spiders, Cerwinski's design just has to make the point obvious, which can be deemed correct, or incorrect... I'd personally rather have the 2 spiders below the cone... doing what they are supposed to be doing, CENTERING THE COIL.


I never understood why they would engineer a sub with a pole sticking out of the center to keep the sub linear. Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the coil in the magnetic gap (larger magnet) for more of the stroke, than use a pole to stabilize it when it left the gap?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ChrisB said:


> I do have one gripe when it comes to old school versus new technology. I started in car audio, roughly 21 years ago, and I was using RCAs. Except for a few manufacturers, we are STILL using RCAs. I think I had some of my first digital computer audio stuff in 1999 or 2000 and my 2007 DJ setup was capable of full out digital, yet in the 12 volt world, they are still using ancient RCA technology.


Digital Smigital, lets start with standardization, lets start telling us what the nominal output of the headunit or processor is in dBu at 0dB "gain" then lets tell us what the voltage gain of the amp is, THEN mark the amp's attenuators in gain reduction..... then we can make fun of people taht think their **** is big by running their gains all teh way down... because all the way down WILL NOW BE NO GAIN! 

THIS will allow you to set your amp gains without even looking at your car, in theory. amp has 26dB of voltage gain, pull back 6dB now it has 20dB of voltage gain... simple ****ing linear math.

As for RCA, ancient but effective.

A) contact surface area is superior to ANY other unbalanced connection this side of a PL259 or N connector.

B) maintains shielding from guzinta to cumzata

C) excellent retention properties for the connector itself

there are no grounds to ***** about RCA as an unbalanced connector, none, it's used because it's superior, so what if it's old? So is Eisenstein's theory of relativity. The next step up is XLR or tiny XLR like switchcraft's TA series balanced connectors. Have fun soldering those.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> I do have one gripe when it comes to old school versus new technology. I started in car audio, roughly 21 years ago, and I was using RCAs. Except for a few manufacturers, we are STILL using RCAs. I think I had some of my first digital computer audio stuff in 1999 or 2000 and my 2007 DJ setup was capable of full out digital, yet in the 12 volt world, they are still using ancient RCA technology.
> 
> I believe the industry cares more about the high school basshead who buys the latest and greatest, blows it up, then repeats the buying cycle than they do about making a quality, state of the art, noise free product.
> 
> One thing I will give new school technology versus old school technology is POWER per dollar. I can buy WAY more power for $1,000 today than I could in 1989!


What purpose would it serve to use a digital connection? This would simply require us to move the D/A conversion back to the amplifiers. This would rule out 99% of the amplifiers on the market, including O/S amps, either that, or require a trunk mounted processor, and who want's to require that for every car that does an upgrade? 

Remember, what comes out of the digital output on your deck, and what comes out of the rca output on your deck are two very different things. One is sound that is ready to be amplified, the other is sound that still needs to be processed/converted before being amplified. 1's and 0's don't sound all that great...

Digital out's on radio's have been around for a while. Digital in's on processors have been around for a while. I'd guess 1% of forum users here utilize them. I'd guess that makes it 0.001% of car audio users utilizing them. 

It all goes back to the KISS theory, and the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> What purpose would it serve to use a digital connection? This would simply require us to move the D/A conversion back to the amplifiers. This would rule out 99% of the amplifiers on the market, including O/S amps, either that, or require a trunk mounted processor, and who want's to require that for every car that does an upgrade?
> 
> Digital out's on radio's have been around for a while. Digital in's on processors have been around for a while. I'd guess 1% of forum users here utilize them. I'd guess that makes it 0.001% of car audio users utilizing them.
> 
> It all goes back to the KISS theory, and the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"


My main complaint is that technology takes FOREVER to trickle down to the 12 volt world. For example: how long has full range Class D been available in the pro-audio world? Since 1998 or so whereas here in the 12 volt world they are JUST starting to get it right.

It seems that 12v product manufacturers just want to recycle and market the same old technology that has been around since the 70s. Every now and again there is a revolutionary product that comes out, but that is few and far between.

You say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" whereas I say "the 12v market is now dismal and boring" with products that are losing their differentiation. Don't even get me started on the internet companies that use the same build house and just slap their name on the amplifier's heat sink!


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## blazeplacid (May 19, 2008)

one thing i really like about newer amps is the smaller foot print

I recently bought a rockford p300-2. this thing is tiny and puts out 125 per channel @ 4ohms.


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## xxEMOxx (Sep 29, 2009)

I personally would hate the digital connector sound idea.

1 010101010 sounds like ass, compressing and encoding then decompressing and decoding etc. it just does not sound the same!!!!


RCA's work, and anyone whom has compared MP3 or other digitally recorded media, to older reel to reel analog encoded tunes can notice a huge difference in sound stage, warmth, and depth that reel to reel provides and MP3's require more digital effin with, and encoding to sound nearly half as realistic IMO.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

xxEMOxx said:


> 1 010101010 sounds like ass, compressing and encoding then decompressing and decoding etc. it just does not sound the same!!!!


ironically everything you hear is ones and zeros, unless you have a turntable or reel-reel in your car. 

check out some of the newer ways to distribute digital audio......


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

chad said:


> A) it's not a piston, it's simply a support for the secondary spider
> 
> B) Many drivers have used 2 spiders, Cerwinski's design just has to make the point obvious, which can be deemed correct, or incorrect... I'd personally rather have the 2 spiders below the cone... doing what they are supposed to be doing, CENTERING THE COIL.


Well in the manual for the stroker (the old school), it states that putting the spider right on top of the other one is point less. But then they did just that with the second edition of strokers. But me, I think its best if its on the dustcap, that way your stabilizing and centering the coil better.

I know many drivers now have two spiders but right one top of each other but why two, and not just one stiffer one????


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

actually the more common way, like Gauss did it back in the day, is to have a spider, spacer, spider, under the cone, the whole spacer assembly screws into the basket and the cone glues to the top of the former, pretty damn efficient, and is DAMN solid at keeping that sucker centered.

I think I may still have a gauss motor int he other garage, I need to go out there this weekend, I'll try to find it.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Any luck finding that Gauss motor Chad??

PS: What are the twist caps for that you have on your avatar, hopefully not to wire stereos lol j/k. Arent those made for solid copper strand (meaning one strand of copper twisted with another single strand).


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I did not wander out to the other garage yet it was ONE HELL of a week last week, in fact it's been ONE HELL of a year. so, no quad riding 

The wire nuts were a joke, and yes a joke on someone who actually used them.

But everyone seems to like my big red nutz.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> But everyone seems to like my big red nutz.
> 
> *Watch this, you're gonna love my nuts!*


Fixed it for you!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ChrisB said:


> Fixed it for you!


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Woah, you guys are killing me, lol. That is some funny s&*t. I've seen one or two guys actually use those nutz for stereo wires, I just laugh at them. Good one.

PS: I remember that commercial, what kills me is that he "SLAP" a prostitute then makes this commercial mentioning how easy it is to "SLAP".


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

I woke up and uninstalled all of my older stuff and will not be re-installing any of them. All of it is for sale on EBAY.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

cleansoundz said:


> I woke up and uninstalled all of my older stuff and will not be re-installing any of them. All of it is for sale on EBAY.


What you got? What old school equipment did you have/used?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Ask Stephen Mantz what he thinks. The answer, I bet, will be enlightening.


Interestingly before this thread was even posted, I did.




> Dear xxxxxxxx,
> 
> Our new amps incorporate bit brand new technology and parts quality as compared to what we built 20 years ago.
> 
> ...




Oh and.........





smithee419 said:


> Look at people that have been into car audio for years, let's just say 10+ years like myself (18 years), what do most of them use today?


19 years in car audio and this is my choice.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I was at the local shop the past few days, looking for gear for the 1939 Chevy. And the sales guy mentioned they had a BNIB Cyclone sitting in back, letting it go for $200. 

My buddy with the xB (Believe78) wanted it. So I picked it up for him last night. 

Here's pics of the BNIB goodness



































































keep_hope_alive said:


> anything like this available today?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Hmm, I've been in Car Audio since 1989 and currently my two vehicles have audio gear that was manufactured within the last 5 years. Of course, I am running some old tech in my fiancée's vehicle.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

audiogodz1 said:


> 19 years in car audio and this is my choice *to sell*



http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...mean-machines-white-old-school-95-models.html


Fixored that for you. :laugh:


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

The biggest difference I see now Vs the so called "old school" is accessibility & electrickity.

- Accessibility, by that I mean its now much easier to get your hands on gear than before due to cheaper manufacturing & more brands/models in a bigger market. OR simpler put, More if not same for less $$$. Also other non-western continents have caught up and their prosperity means more sales in a broader scale. And the biggest driver behind this, the internet, never has the blind leading the blind OR repetition OR mass marketing OR the few genuine who seek "that much more", ever reached a wider audience. This also affects the below...

- Electrikity; now we have digital anything. EQ's, Xovers, processing etc. The level of sound in the average car has improved, but the need for knowledge to get the same level of sound has, in my opinion, decreased. Now there is an electric solution for everything. 
Before, much study, restudy, trial & error and hands on was needed. Now the wide availability of "self tuning" systems, drivers, amps, install tools like mass damping etc etc.. that can work in so many configurations, means jo average can have a 95% system pretty darn easy. Its not hard to buy, install & tune a 95% system in a relative short period of time.
That last 4%, is our modern, overcomplicated law of diminishing returns Vs marketing, and $$$, etc... and the last 1% probably covers what we talk about in these forums.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Regarding amplifiers, I am only using New Tech ones due to the efficiency figures. 
Still haven't pulled the trigger on full range Class D though. 

I'm still using A/B class amps but when you compare a 65% efficiency figure (DLS A4) to 50% (PPI Art series & Zapco Z and Studio series) or to 45% (Phoenix Gold M & MS series) or better yet 40% (Phoenix Gold TI series) - I feel like I can save some money by not upgrading the alternator. 

Kelvin 

PS: got the numbers from an Italian magazine


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## jambo (Dec 28, 2009)

Well said Sydmonster. Car audio used to be a very niche hobby and those who were into it years ago were fanatical because it used to require a lot of know-how and cost an absolute fortune. Nowdays it seems to be more about accessibility for the masses which is good in a way because it makes things that used to be complicated and expensive very easy and cheap. But, like cars for example, in the pursuit of accessibility we've lost the love and the passion that I personally crave in this gear.

16 years of this hobby and I still use my old gear from the mid-90s. Not because I claim it's better, and it's certainly less efficient, but it is honest engineering and I know it inside out. My hairs still stand on end whenever I read the words "HCCA" engraved with CNC machining or "McIntosh Powerguard" written in small lettering you have to track it down, and I sit there pondering exactly how much power that 2x100 watt rated amp really does put out. Now days I sit there pondering how many coffees and biscuits the marketing team went through at the meeting where they decided this new amp I'm holding in my other hand is rated at 3000 watts.

Maybe this stuff is only as good as the stuff you buy today, maybe it's better. Whatever the case, I don't see any reason to upgrade to the same thing, or potentially disappointment, when I have perfectly fine working gear sitting right here that lives up to the standards I've had for 16 years.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Nice post.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Mostly all old school equipment was HANDCRAFTED in the USA. That was why they were so reliable. Some where "bulletproof". I personally will stick to the old school and not because I think its better but because I know they will last another 15-20 years to come.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Jeanious2009 said:


> Mostly all old school equipment was HANDCRAFTED in the USA. That was why they were so reliable. Some where "bulletproof". I personally will stick to the old school and not because I think its better but because I know they will last another 15-20 years to come.


Some of those handcrafted items had issues with cold solder joints. I know I had at least one, if not two Rockford Fosgates that had to go back due to bad solder joints. I also had a couple of Peavey pro audio amps that needed to have their cold solder joints repaired. I hate to say it, but machine placed components and wave soldering techniques can be much more reliable than the hand-built amplifier that was soldered by a hungover employee on a Monday morning.

Also, don't get too overconfident because those electrolytic capacitors in your older amplifiers are only good for about 10 or 15 years. When those capacitors go while playing music, they may take some FETs with them. Sadly, those FETs may have no modern day equivalent to replace them if and when this happens!


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

While I have been a fan of all the old school stuff I feel there are a few shortcomings to some of these 15+yr old amps....

I love old PG amps but most of them all need new caps in them now or soon or else risk failure and or disaster ...same with lots of these old amps...yes they are still working but none of these amps were made with parts that will never need replacing.

since I AM not able to fix them I no longer run them

I would love to run something else but if there is a budget involved then that means there is going to be some sacrifice somewhere...

its not possible to have it all for no money....

$200 will get you a decent amp on ebay these days..new and new school.....will it have all the power you want ? maybe....maybe not....

will it be efficient ? maybe ...depends on what kind ...

I am running a full range class D and its OK .....it will be fine when I get the other amp to run with it and can bridge the one I have...

is it perfect ? not by a long shot.....but I paid about 1/2 of what it was listed for new....its not entry and not best in world...

being that its not entry it should last longer than 6 months....like the amp my nephew got from CC that smoked on him less than 6 months after we installed it on his 1 12....it was entry level CC MTX and wasnt worth half of what he paid for it....

if money was not an issue I would love to have some new True amps or a coupld Zuki or something else new...

I think with the increase in amount of money spent you can buy an amp today that is every bit as good as the old stuff....

but for the most part its much cheaper to buy old stuff of better quality


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Well I dont worry about those caps too much. If they fail and cant find any to replace because of value, thats okay, I can always hang the amp in a wall as decoration. Didnt you gave up your car audio hobby to collect art?? JK. Trust me, I wont just collect or buy LP, am thinking about going back to that pawnshop and buying this Soundstream Reference 300sx for 50 bucks, just because I LOVE the way they have the connections as females were you stick everything in and make it look nice. I just bought a old Alpine HU a CDA-9807 and love it, I can remember having one around 7 years ago and how some a$$ hole stole it. I can honestly say I like that one more than my new Alpine that I purchase last year.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

facepalm


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

WRX/Z28 said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...mean-machines-white-old-school-95-models.html
> 
> 
> Fixored that for you. :laugh:


Not true. Just went to bigger ones. Like 100 more amp draw.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

It's hard to say if or when those capacitors will fail.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Everything eventually fails.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Does anyone know where I can find that article?


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## 1303gLOOKer (May 13, 2010)

In terms of build quality, I'd go for old school amps anytime.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

It comes down to build quality vs. performance of the newer amp technology.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I used to swear by old school gear, now I swear at it! As long as one knows what they are getting into up front, there are some deals to be had on old school gear out there. 

I was happy as can be to pick up a pair of Orion HCCA 225s for a grand total of $200 (as in $100 each). I was even luckier because someone recently replaced ALL the electrolytic capacitors in both amplifiers so they were ready to go when I received them! I have a couple of Orion 280 GX amplifiers that need a little TLC, but that's nothing that $30 of parts and some time won't cure.

What I learned in my amplifier purchasing ordeal is that paying top dollar for the best available in 1991 on eBay generally doesn't end well. Sadly, 99% of the old school amplifiers purchased on eBay had something wrong with them. Some things were simple fixes, like this:









Others looked like the following:


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

The article is from Oct/Nov 09. I still have that board. I plan to mess with it since I dont see me paying 250.00 to get it fix. I'll leave that up to someone else.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

ChrisB said:


> I used to swear by old school gear, now I swear at it! As long as one knows what they are getting into up front, there are some deals to be had on old school gear out there.
> 
> I was happy as can be to pick up a pair of Orion HCCA 225s for a grand total of $200 (as in $100 each). I was even luckier because someone recently replaced ALL the electrolytic capacitors in both amplifiers so they were ready to go when I received them! I have a couple of Orion 280 GX amplifiers that need a little TLC, but that's nothing that $30 of parts and some time won't cure.
> 
> ...


lucky you. I wish I could find some old Orions to stash away. I think those are the only ones I havnt tried and I want to. if it happens never can tell.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

TrickyRicky said:


> Well I dont worry about those caps too much. If they fail and cant find any to replace because of value, thats okay, I can always hang the amp in a wall as decoration. Didnt you gave up your car audio hobby to collect art?? JK. Trust me, I wont just collect or buy LP, am thinking about going back to that pawnshop and buying this Soundstream Reference 300sx for 50 bucks, just because I LOVE the way they have the connections as females were you stick everything in and make it look nice. I just bought a old Alpine HU a CDA-9807 and love it, I can remember having one around 7 years ago and how some a$$ hole stole it. I can honestly say I like that one more than my new Alpine that I purchase last year.



till someday when something catches fire inside. it has happened. might be rare but it would suck.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

I have to say as much as I like some of the old gear I have tried I am actually liking the idea of getting all 3 of my amps where I need them and having the power I want and not using up a entire trunck of space to get it done.

that is what new tech has done among other things.


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

JAX said:


> lucky you. I wish I could find some old Orions to stash away. I think those are the only ones I havnt tried and I want to. if it happens never can tell.


Just say the word Mike. I've got a stack of HCCA 225s


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Can someone please send me a copy of the article to [email protected]?

Thanks


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> Some of those handcrafted items had issues with cold solder joints. I know I had at least one, if not two Rockford Fosgates that had to go back due to bad solder joints. I also had a couple of Peavey pro audio amps that needed to have their cold solder joints repaired. I hate to say it, but machine placed components and wave soldering techniques can be much more reliable than the hand-built amplifier that was soldered by a hungover employee on a Monday morning.


I'm not saying you're wrong but that's an awful weak argument. Have you looked inside some of these newer amps & seen some of the completely terrible solder joints that were over looked because of a lack of ability to inspect every amp? I have. Yes I'm sure there were a few back then that had to be sent back to have resolder work done. But since it was all done by hand & an actual person was able to see it as it went together, I'm guessing the failure rate was pretty low with most brands. I'm not trashing newer stuff. I've had several newer types of amps in my possession that I liked. I'm also not saying "old school" (which some people are still confused about what qualifies) is absolutely better. One thing for certain though... There was a sense of art & passion involved in the design & production of most of those amps that's just completely lacking today for the most part.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

ghostmechanic said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong but that's an awful weak argument. Have you looked inside some of these newer amps & seen some of the completely terrible solder joints that were over looked because of a lack of ability to inspect every amp? I have. Yes I'm sure there were a few back then that had to be sent back to have resolder work done. But since it was all done by hand & an actual person was able to see it as it went together, I'm guessing the failure rate was pretty low with most brands. I'm not trashing newer stuff. I've had several newer types of amps in my possession that I liked. I'm also not saying "old school" (which some people are still confused about what qualifies) is absolutely better. One thing for certain though... There was a sense of art & passion involved in the design & production of most of those amps that's just completely lacking today for the most part.


I cant argue with that. there does seem to be a total lack of passion in the car audio world today. its all about cheap throw away stuff.

look at the poor excuses for head units. might as well pick up a few older decks when possible if I plan on having any sort of quality over bling.

there are some amps that might be comparable passion wise but you have to pay for that and that is where the issue is we all know.

If I had the money I would run $500 amps no problem , but I dont so I have to be cheap. Now there is the irony. you can get old stuff cheap if you know what to look for.

that is my next thing. to pick up some older dirt cheap amps.

I have had to work long and hard but right now I have very little in my system compared to most. and I have a crap system but still all of my pieces total what some idiots these days go to Best Buy and spend for just 1 amp.


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## ghostmechanic (Mar 2, 2009)

JAX said:


> I cant argue with that. there does seem to be a total lack of passion in the car audio world today. its all about cheap throw away stuff.


That's because this country is the primary consumer for pretty much any product & we've become a nation of lazy, more is better but I don't wanna work for it so I want the cheapest price I can find so if it breaks I'll just throw it away sort of society. Well that & just sheer corporate greed. Most people would rather have something that is cheap to buy that'll get the job done marginally that can just be thrown away when it breaks. There are few people out there that would rather have something that's higher quality & would cost more that might last a long time or can be repaired if it breaks. It's not just car amplifiers either.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

It's funny you would say that. On a sort of related topic, my microwave oven just broke down on Sunday. We owned it for 6 years and it barely lasted. However my cousins and I brought a microwave in 1995 (made in USA days) that is still operating well to this day. My Dad had a microwave oven for 29 years before it finally crapped out on him. Granted the new microwave ovens are more powerful and have more features, what does that say about the quality? I am not saying that my microwave represents all microwaves but its hard to ignore the obvious.

I don't think car audio is too far off from this analogy particularly car amplifier. More features at the sacrifice of superior made in the USA with pride build quality.


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## CraigMBA (Nov 19, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> Some of those handcrafted items had issues with cold solder joints.


ALL of them did. The greatest gift RF ever gave car audio was using the surface mount technology in the HD series and getting rid of the hole through/piecework built previous amps. True, they weren't the first, but the rest of the industry followed right along.


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## JAX (Jun 2, 2006)

ghostmechanic said:


> That's because this country is the primary consumer for pretty much any product & we've become a nation of lazy, more is better but I don't wanna work for it so I want the cheapest price I can find so if it breaks I'll just throw it away sort of society. Well that & just sheer corporate greed. Most people would rather have something that is cheap to buy that'll get the job done marginally that can just be thrown away when it breaks. There are few people out there that would rather have something that's higher quality & would cost more that might last a long time or can be repaired if it breaks. It's not just car amplifiers either.



well...look at what you said. 

consumer wants it cheap and if it breaks throw it away. 

so that means they arent willing to pay (which we agree) .

so if a customer isnt willing to pay then what other choice does a producer have other than to reduce the cost to make so that they can make a profit. 

from the money side I think its the people who have caused the cheapness of the product at least when it comes to amps.

now head units have just plained turned into **** and yet the price of them is still $300 or so for something decent if you get one new at the local BM.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Well said.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

Agreed, today car audio has developed a mind of it's own. These days the stock sound systems are so much more advanced than yesterdays which asks the question "why even spend money upgrading". Also the amplifiers were not built to last forever like they were yesterday unless you want to pay outrageous amounts of money.


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