# TJSWARBRICK's 135i Vert - Gladen, Arc, Mobridge, Morel, ADS



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Been hella sick the last week or so, but finally got bored of sitting in the house so came in on a sunday to knock out a log. 

Followers of our build logs over the years probably have seen us cram quite a bit of gear in some pretty limited spaces over the years...a lot of that has to do with our values of trying to make things look as OEM as possible and take away as little usable space as possible. This 2012 BMW 135i convertible, owned by our own member Tom aka. Tjswarbrick, is quite a good example of that.

We have known Tom a long time, and followed his progress in his previous mercedes C class, and interestingly enough, this project didnt quite start off as a space saving venture.

Like many of our members, Tom has collected a pretty extensive series of high end gear to be used in his next project...what he didnt know was the type of car that he was gonna purchase...as luck would have it, he ended up with a vehicle with VERY limited sacrificial space and very unique and limiting oem locations...and after sometime mocking up his existing gear, including arc SE amps, 12" subs, etc, and talking about just how much space he can sacrifice, it was decided that we would revamp most of the product list to better suit his desires for this vehicle.

the goals:

1. achieve a nice level of sound quality using oem locations

2. obtain a high level of bass performance despite the convertible configuration

3. sacrifice as little space as possible in an already limited trunk

Jesse did most of the work on this build, while Joey built the sub enclosure...i just did the tuning and the write up 

lets get started.

first the car...this is our first 1 series of any kind, just happens to be a convertible 




























one of the biggest obstacles to making a convertible with a sealed off trunk sound good is the subbass performance. Subs located in the trunk separated by solid panels and the convertible mechanism, simply dont have a very good chance of getting into the cabin...thus, apart from unique vehicles such as the s2000, almost every other convertible we have done a subwoofer in the interior. The difficult part for this car is that it is a pretty small interior to begin with, so here is the view of that interior:



















as you can see, it remains pretty much stock looking.  only very keen eyed owners of the 135 can perhaps notice that the passenger side floor mat is raised a little bit higher than normal...honestly, not being so familar with the vechile, i couldnt really see it even while i was taking the pics:









well, beneath the carpet lies a sealed enclosure housing an illusion audio Carbon C10 10" subwoofer.  the middle of the enclosure is finished in graphite vinyl, while the two sides were wrapped in the actual floor carpet that was trimmed and reattached. this means with the floor mat in place hiding the vinyl portion, it is very difficult to pick out the enclosure. The sub itself is protected by a press fit mesh grille that still allows a view of the unique C10 subwoofer:
































































here are some build pics of the sub enclosure by Joey. first, the area that will house the subwoofer enclosure was marked off and the carpet trimmed. one of the nice things about this car is that the passenger foot well is spaced up by a super thick piece of foam. with this section cut out of the car, it gave us quite a bit of room to build a decent sized enclosure and not protrude out too far from the oem floor level. 




























then the whole area was tapped off, and several layers of glass laid down to form the back side of the enclosure:




























then joey got to work on the front baffle for the enclosure. with the unique front magnet design of the sub, the sub itself has to be inset quite a bit, so a stack of rings was built into the baffle to achieve that purpose. also, the press fit grille itself, which eventually becomes even with the front baffle, had to be several stacks high as well:























































the side of the stack of rings was then ground down so it would fit within the confines of the floor mold, and then another top piece was attached, and the rings sealed off with druaglass:




























this piece was then mated to the back mold, forming the complete enclosure of a little under .5 cubic foot, it is a bit small for the c10, but from past experiences such as our Mini and E30M3 build, we know the C10 performs beautifully in tiny boxes upfront. 



















the bonding area between the mold and the front baffle was then smoothed out, and basically, looking at this picture, the part that is in filler is how little the enclosure is raised from the oem floor...about 3-4 inches at the top and very little on the bottom:










the box was then fitted back into the car, and the edges backfilled to form a perfect fit with the car's foot well space:










when that cured and was sanded, the enclosure was once again test fitted in the car:



















then came time to build the top trim layer, which started off as a single piece of 1/8" mdf. it was trimmed so the mdf itself will be in vinyl, while the sides in the salvaged factory carpet, and the difference in thickness between the two materials made for a flat top surface when done. :





































so here is a pic to show just how far recessed the sub is:










and here is joey rabeting the inside edge of the grille to allow the mesh to be fitted from underneath the top most layer of the grille:


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

then, the mesh was temporarily secured, and the whole box test fitted together one last time:



















then the vinyl and carpet went on, and once again, the enclosure was test fitted to ensure proper fitment:










the grille was also wrapped in vinyl and the mesh attached from the backside:



















and the box was wired up, the center portion painted black, and stuffed with blackhole stuff, and is now ready to go back into the car:
































































a final look at the foot well before the subbox went in:










moving onto the rest of the front stage.

for the oem door midrange location, Tom supplied us with an older set of ADS 4" midranges and some aluminum mounting baffles. jesse wired the speaker up, and secured them to the oem locations and sound proofed around the mounting to help with resonance:























































for tweeter duty, we supplied the car with a set of Morel Elate MT350 tweeters, as they fit in bmw stock locations perfectly and has proven to produce great results:




























the oem underseat woofers were replaced with a set of gladen oem fitment drivers, jesse fully sound proofed the enclosures inside and out before bolting in the gladen drivers:




























next came the wiring, and being a bmw, it was almost impossible to take good pics of the wiring once its tucked under the carpet in the door sill channel, so here ist he bundle still outside of hte car:










so thats it for the interior, moving onto the trunk.

so this is a pretty darn small trunk to begin with, and with the convertible top stowage taking up quite a bit of the depth, it was a challenge trying to conceal all the amps and dsp...keeping in mind that the car's stock locations dictated two amplifiers for this job.

But after some thinking, jesse came up with quite a brilliant mounting and trim for the amps. 

so here is the view from back of the car...and if you dont look really hard, it is easy to miss what Jesse added:










basically, a trim panel with a center vinyl trim and press fit grille resides on the driver side the trunk, it barely takes up any real trunk space and through the grille, you can see the profiles of an arc audio xdiv2 amplifier. even though this looks very simple, it took quite a bit of trial and error and careful fitment to achieve, and i am really proud of Jesse for this one..note especially the profiled curves on the front surface so as to make it blend better with the lines of the oem carpet:
































































lift up the oem floor board, and you see a mobridge DA3 at the front of the trunk well, that provides signal source and all the processing for the system, and if you look closely at the back, you will see a stinger fuse block next to the battery:


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

onto the build pics of the trunk.

first up is the little holder for the fuse block...which jesse fabricatged to snap into a cavity in the oem trunk well divider:



















To house the two amplifiers in a verticle stacked confifguration, jesse came up with a two part platform. here is the foundational portion that bolts to the car itself, sitting inside the cavity on the driver side trunk corner, it is foamed to prevent rattles and is very sturdy as to provide a solid mounting bass for the actual amp rack:




























and here is the actual rack itself that houses the two amps, a 1200.6 powers the mid, tweeter and subwoofer with 150, 150 and 600 watts, while a 600.4 is bridged on the midbass sending them 300 watts a piece. this rack is also very strudy to prevent any flex when the car is in motion. this rack bolts to the foundation platform to secure it solidly in the car:























































so here is the amp rack bolted to the car and wired up:



















and here front trim panel...which basically started out as a piece mdf cut to fit the area, topped with anotether strim of mdf, the corner profiled with cardbard and fiberglass, and then a center trim area cut out and backfilled with filler to present a presfit cavity. the rest of the area was then profiled with more fiberglass and filler; while the center preset grille is fabricated out of mdf and note the pressed grille that actually raises up in the middle to become even with the top surface of the grille. it looks very small and simple but presents quite a bit of work to get right:





































here is the piece test fitted one final time before upholstery:










and finally, here is the entire piece after upholstery with carpet and vinyl, with the carpet being dyed darker to better match the oem carpet color, and the grille piece press fit in place:














































so thats it! if there ever was a build that has a lot more than meets the eye on the surface, this is it...i am super happy with how it turned out from a cosmetic fit and finish stand point.

as for how it sounds, i think Tom is knowledgeable enough to present his own thoughts..and with some more tuning at more capable hands, i am sure it will shine even more.

for me, the car sounded very good, very similar to other late model bmws we have done that has very similar locations and equipment. the staging and imagine are all quite decent, with very smooth tonality that can reach very high volumes.

the subbass is truly something else tho. with the open air nature of the car, extreme bottom end below 30hz suffers a bit due to lack of cabin reinforcement, but above that, the impact, transient response, and blending of this car is something else. we do not get to do a lot of front subs, so when i listen to the various tracks on my own test cd, especially the ones featuring snappy snare trunks and bass notes, it is quite an experience in this car...everyone likes to say their drums slap them in the chest, this one seriously does and is very cool to listen to.

well, thats it for now, time to get some more rest to recover for the busy work week ahead. 

until next time,

Cheers 

Bing


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Wow talk about fitting 10lbs into a 5lb bag lol.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Nice work on everything ! that amp cover is quite a project with detailed work and looks great! :thumbsup:

Is that 2 gauge power wire on the amp? It looks thick. What power size wire was the main line ? Sorry I could not see the main one.

Maybe it's just the pictures since that MDF also looks like over 1" thick  making me guess is 4 G wire

I may get a chance to listen and see it all eventually


----------



## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

http://simplicityinsound.com/images/FTP/tom135/swar41.JPG

What bit is this, and is it available from [email protected]? The bearing doesn't look familiar to me.

Never mind, I didn't see the line separating the 2 bearing till I zoomed way in. It looked like one solid 1/2" bearing at first.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

very off topic, but whoever tagged that box before it was wrapped, i like your style


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i think its 4 guage all around on this, being so close to the battery. but jesse can confirm.

i keep telling jesse that he should be some kind of illustrator or designer with that hand writing thing of his...


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Onyx1136 said:


> http://simplicityinsound.com/images/FTP/tom135/swar41.JPG
> 
> What bit is this, and is it available from [email protected]? The bearing doesn't look familiar to me.
> 
> Never mind, I didn't see the line separating the 2 bearing till I zoomed way in. It looked like one solid 1/2" bearing at first.


yeah its just a two bearing spiral flush trim, from [email protected] of course 

b


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> i think its 4 guage all around on this, being so close to the battery. but jesse can confirm.
> 
> i keep telling jesse that he should be some kind of illustrator or designer with that hand writing thing of his...


killah shark sjc.


----------



## eling23 (Oct 13, 2014)

that sub box is niiiiice. I remember Tom showing me his trunk before the install and it is so small, couldnt imagine how all the gear could fit, this is def a very nice solution. Cant wait to get a demo.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

10 lbs of gear in a 5 lb bag is right!
Jesse, JOey, and Bing - I am SO pleased - nee, awestruck, by your gear recommendations and installation. It looks so clean and hides so well.
The day I picked up the car I loaded it with camping gear and headed to the hills (okay, over the hill) with my daughter. Everyone else had minivans, and I was the one carrying the coolers! Everything fit, and the drive was an utter joy.

Bing is right - the impact and tunefulness are astounding. I'm still playing with the tune, and getting a handle on the DA3, but mostly I'm trying to minorly improve the timing without honking up the initial sound.

Jesse - wow - you weren't kidding about those amps being a tight fit in there. Thanks for making the perfect rack for 'em!

And JOey - that sub enclosure just hit it out of the park for me. The repurposed carpet was a stroke of genius. It makes it look like it was built that way in Germany.

Thanks guys.
Loving it more every day.

- Tom


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Alrojoca said:


> Nice work on everything ! that amp cover is quite a project with detailed work and looks great! :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> I may get a chance to listen and see it all eventually





eling23 said:


> that sub box is niiiiice. I remember Tom showing me his trunk before the install and it is so small, couldnt imagine how all the gear could fit, this is def a very nice solution. Cant wait to get a demo.


Demo coming soon...


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

I can truly say that I am very impressed with how that front subwoofer is integrated. I have a friend who didn't want to give up any trunk space for an enclosure, and now I can show him this.


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice work SiS Team! 

Congrats Tom, you must be so stoked!


----------



## Vidar (Jan 13, 2015)

Another feast for my eyes! 

I see Joey has started to learn to take pictures. Keep it up, don't think for a second we can get too many of them.


----------



## odj23 (Jul 13, 2010)

Looks fantastic guys. I'm squirreling this build away for future reference on my 1 series.


----------



## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

You guys continue to amaze me with your ability to take it up a notch. How is the sub enclosure attached to the floor?


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Vidar said:


> I see Joey has started to learn to take pictures. Keep it up, don't think for a second we can get too many of them.


hahaha.... I was the original build picture taker! (and the REAL knappster!)


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks Tom! Glad you like it! It was fun to build (my part anyway... )




tjswarbrick said:


> 10 lbs of gear in a 5 lb bag is right!
> Jesse, JOey, and Bing - I am SO pleased - nee, awestruck, by your gear recommendations and installation. It looks so clean and hides so well.
> The day I picked up the car I loaded it with camping gear and headed to the hills (okay, over the hill) with my daughter. Everyone else had minivans, and I was the one carrying the coolers! Everything fit, and the drive was an utter joy.
> 
> ...


----------



## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

One of my accounts is a BMW dealer, nothing I hate worse than getting in the back seat of a 1 series coupe since my feet get stuck under the front. LOL
I know the space constraints all too well, nice work and pics, as always.


----------



## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

I know those mids! ...and the adapter plate! Nice install!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

HIS4 said:


> I know those mids! ...and the adapter plate! Nice install!


Why yes, yes you do. Have I said "Thank You" yet? Thank you!

When I told Jesse - after he installed them but before the amp was hooked up - that the mids were used but I never got a chance to test 'em, he about blew a gasket! But I knew they'd be fine.
They're more than fine - they're every bit the awesome midrange transducers that I remember they were back in the day.
And even with the considerable engine, exhaust, wind and external noise I am capable of churning up - on 150 watts each, they have no problem keeping up.

How's the Cayman GTS coming along? Every time I see one on the road (or in the SiS bay) I am reminded of your long wait time.


----------



## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

tjswarbrick said:


> Why yes, yes you do. Have I said "Thank You" yet? Thank you!
> 
> When I told Jesse - after he installed them but before the amp was hooked up - that the mids were used but I never got a chance to test 'em, he about blew a gasket! But I knew they'd be fine.
> They're more than fine - they're every bit the awesome midrange transducers that I remember they were back in the day.
> ...


I finally took delivery on Saturday. It was a long time coming but so worth it! Still building up the equipment to do an install in the car. So far all I have is Arc XDI 1200.6 and 600.4 amps and a PS8. I also still have my Morel ADMW 9s which I might use in the doors. I will need a mobridge but it seems like the cost of a DA1 to utilize my PS8 vs the cost of a DA3 is not that far apart so I might end up getting a DA3 and trying to sell the PS8 even though I liked the PS8.

For drivers I'm looking at doing Scan tweets and mids. In combination with the ADMWs, I might try it as a true 3-way with no sub first and see how that goes. If its not enough, I can add easily add the sub since i have enough amp channels for it.

Work in progress...


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

HIS4 said:


> I finally took delivery on Saturday. It was a long time coming but so worth it! Still building up the equipment to do an install in the car. So far all I have is Arc XDI 1200.6 and 600.4 amps and a PS8. I also still have my Morel ADMW 9s which I might use in the doors. I will need a mobridge but it seems like the cost of a DA1 to utilize my PS8 vs the cost of a DA3 is not that far apart so I might end up getting a DA3 and trying to sell the PS8 even though I liked the PS8.
> 
> For drivers I'm looking at doing Scan tweets and mids. In combination with the ADMWs, I might try it as a true 3-way with no sub first and see how that goes. If its not enough, I can add easily add the sub since i have enough amp channels for it.
> 
> Work in progress...


That sounds awesome. Love your choice in amps!
With the response anomalies imposed by my car's physical boundaries (80Hz dip, 55Hz peak, steep roll-off below,) I think I could ALMOST get away with just the underseat 8's. So your 9's subless could easily be worth a try.

I've been very pleased with the DA3. They just released an update which I have yet to download, so I should be able to save 2 different tunes now. In my opinion the GUI could be a little more intuitive - two clicks and typing to set each EQ field is annoying, and BT rather than USB would be handy. Still, in the end, I wouldn't change a thing - as long as final performance is up to snuff (which it definitely is) a couple user-interface compromises are worth it for me to not have another device in the chain. But it's my first true DSP and I've never used a PS8.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Just got some expert ears on it to dial in the tune.
Mitigated the big bass bump and got the image centered, small, and stable.
Love it! Going on a 10 hour drive tomorrow so I'll get lots of time on it and see if anything else crops up.


----------



## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

tjswarbrick said:


> Just got some expert ears on it to dial in the tune.
> Mitigated the big bass bump and got the image centered, small, and stable.
> Love it! Going on a 10 hour drive tomorrow so I'll get lots of time on it and see if anything else crops up.


Love your install, props to the SiS crew for another home run. The sub almost looks like it was made to be there. I'll either be using the XDiv2 or a Gladen RC150c5 in my next install and the Arc's must be great as much as these guys use them. Just trying to pick out a ride to put them in, looking like a 2016 Tacoma Access Cab TRD Sport so i won't have much room either.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I love the ARCs. I was really bummed the SE's wouldn't fit, but honestly, I haven't missed 'em. And the way the system is configured, I've got impact out the wazoo and headroom to spare.

As far as the tune goes, every new song that came on amazed me with the clear, realistic vocals. SOOOO pleased.
I did miss a tiny bit of warmth, so I went back today and bumped the MB's up 1/2dB and nudged the bass knob the slightest hair. Brought it back without taking away anything above.
So I think I'm going to live with it a week and re-evaluate to see if I can pinpoint any weakness at all.


----------



## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm so glad your happy with it, it was a really enjoyable process to tune in a convertible! no hot stuffy car and it ujust sounds good with the top down. I really really like those midbasses, and that bump in volume you did on them should compensate nicely for road noise.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Lycancatt said:


> I'm so glad your happy with it, it was a really enjoyable process to tune in a convertible! no hot stuffy car and it ujust sounds good with the top down. I really really like those midbasses, and that bump in volume you did on them should compensate nicely for road noise.


My thoughts exactly.
I really enjoyed tuning in your drive. In my yard, I'm completely exposed and it when the weather's nice (which it kinda has to be) it's TOO hot, and I can't see the laptop screen. The shade of the home was the perfect environment.

Thanks so much, Mike. To my ears, you pinpointed the issues I was having in mere moments and resolved 'em like it was no big thing at all. And it was so much more pleasant than doing it by my darn self!
Highly recommended.


----------



## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

Great job, really nice and clean!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Been driving around with the roof closed. Darn winter.
Noted that the 55Hz hump was still a little excessive.

It's funny - top up or down, subs only with no MB's, Midbasses only with no subs, or both with a reasonable crossover - there's a ton of cabin gain at 55Hz, and a big null at 80.

Careful adjustment of the T/A brought 80 up just enough that I no longer miss it.

To tame the 55Hz, we set both MB high-pass and Sub Low-Pass to 24dB/Oct, with the LP at something like 37Hz. HP I think was 70 because going higher just exacerbated the 80 Hz dip.
We were trying to figure out how to bring down that peak without mucking anything else up.

I learned something about the DA3.

I wanted to tame the hump by ~ 6dB. I did some math and calculated Q (I don't recall the figure right now, but can look it up.) Then I dialed matching 55Hz cuts in both woofer and MB at 6dB. And I heard no difference. Looking at the little squiggly lines (and doing some more math), they were both down something like 19dB already at that point, from the effect of the crossovers!
I re-calculated, and cut them both the maximum, 24dB.

Hump eliminated. Bass is good!
Sometimes I want to bring the sub back up just 1 or 2 dB there - but sometimes I don't. May experiment some with that later.
Wouldn't hurt to get some ears on it to advise, but it sounds good on everything now, and sounds darn good on great music.
The system is very revealing of poor recordings. They don't necessarily sound objectionable, but compromises made in sound quality come across as a loss of life and sparkle on playback. I am very impressed, and happy, with the resolution of those mids and tweets!


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Nice! Time for a GTG?


----------



## HIS4 (Oct 6, 2005)

I wonder if that might be a function of the underseat enclosures. I recall having a similar issue with mine. I either had way too much midbass or none at all if I tried to tune it. It would turn out that I had to give up some low end response to get the midbass to where I wanted it or lose some and get insane midbass. Eventually I just gave up on it and went with the compromise as I could never figure out if it was more of a phasing/cancellation issue or just a tuning issue.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

papasin said:


> Nice! Time for a GTG?


Definitely!



HIS4 said:


> I wonder if that might be a function of the underseat enclosures. I recall having a similar issue with mine. I either had way too much midbass or none at all if I tried to tune it. It would turn out that I had to give up some low end response to get the midbass to where I wanted it or lose some and get insane midbass. Eventually I just gave up on it and went with the compromise as I could never figure out if it was more of a phasing/cancellation issue or just a tuning issue.


I'm sure it's cabin related, but I don't have enough info to cast blame on underseat woofers, conflicting interior dimensions, or what.
Based on some initial parameters I gave him, Bing had originally set it up for impact - and there was a ton. Midbass AND low stuff. It was fun, but after a couple days it became fatiguing and wasn't particularly realistic.
At home, impact is the last thing on my mind in sound reproduction. But in the car, I find I do need some of it. The trouble, as you mention, is balancing it - enough deep bass to be satisfying, enough midbass to be exciting, but getting a smooth transition, and not overwhelming the all-important midrange and the highs. I could probably spend 2 hours a day for the next 3 months playing with the DSP to get it "perfect" - but it's so good now that I'm afraid I'll only make things worse 'less good'. 
I'd love to give you a listen, but even if I make it out to the Islands this summer, there's essentially zero chance I'll be bringing the 1er.


----------



## Aerodynamic (Dec 6, 2015)

Really great work, you always find a solution to mount amps so pretty and clean  I can say that your builds inspired me when i started do my installs as hobby


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

"So pretty and clean." Indeed.

This weekend, pulling her backpack and her friend's stuff out of the trunk, my daughter says "You better not put a stereo in this one! There's hardly any room."
As you can see - though she can't - the stereo's already in! 
(And it hardly took up any room; it's just an, itty-bitty teeny-tiny trunk - especially with the top stowed.)


----------



## Aerodynamic (Dec 6, 2015)

tjswarbrick said:


> "So pretty and clean." Indeed.
> 
> This weekend, pulling her backpack and her friend's stuff out of the trunk, my daughter says "You better not put a stereo in this one! There's hardly any room."
> As you can see - though she can't - the stereo's already in!
> (And it hardly took up any room; it's just an, itty-bitty teeny-tiny trunk - especially with the top stowed.)


Well the amps are really compact, so you can do work in a small areas. Probably most of other amps would not be suitable due to their measurements. ​The smaller amp that could be used would be D series mosconi, thous are dwarfs comparing to AS series


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Aerodynamic said:


> Well the amps are really compact, so you can do work in a small areas. Probably most of other amps would not be suitable due to their measurements. ​The smaller amp that could be used would be D series mosconi, thous are dwarfs comparing to AS series


I looked at those.
For my configuration, the sub would have been down on power and to get similar levels to all the drivers would have required 3 amps. Plus, watt for watt or channel for channel, they are a little pricier than the ARC stuff. Very nice, though, and sources I trust tell me the Mosconi watts feel a little stronger than the same number from ARC. Not that I'm short on power or anything.


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Got to listen today. Sounds good. Up front sub FTW!


----------



## eling23 (Oct 13, 2014)

Your sub blended really well with the midbass. Nice smooth tune you have there. Imaging and staging were good even w/ the seat so far up. lol. Gotta sit back and cruise in the vert!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks for the listen, and the pointers, guys!

Eugene, I hear what you're saying. But, to me, a car is for driving so I try to put myself in position for best control of the vehicle. My goal is for the sound to be the best, most enjoyable, it can be for the task at hand. I LOVED the sound of Richard's CIVIC, but could never drive in that laid-back position.
Perhaps that's why the DA3 has 2 presets???

Anyway, I spent 6 days out of town in the Pathfinder. When I returned to the 135, the crisp, clean upfront sound once again blew me away. But I hear, and feel, what you guys were saying about too much midbass and phasing errors. So it's time to implement Papasin's suggestions on the EQ.
I've got a trampoline to assemble and an under-house leaky pipe to fix, so I'm not sure when that'll happen - should be before the end of the weekend.

But I think, more than anything, I need to get Mrs Papasin to spend some quality time dialing in my time alignment! Every car she's done (that I've heard, anyway) has had mind-blowingly good staging, imaging, and spaciousness.


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

tjswarbrick said:


> but could never drive in that laid-back position.
> Perhaps that's why the DA3 has 2 presets???



Yep, that's what presets are for. The H800 has 6, and I easily use 3 to 4 of them, sometimes more. While I don't have a convertible, I tweak in addition to t/a the amplitude (gain) of the individual driver pairs to compensate for seating position and depending on the road noise. I like to keep the same balance as it sounded like you heard and why it's nice to have a DSP where you can adjust on the fly.


----------



## eling23 (Oct 13, 2014)

sounds like you know what or should i say who the secret is too! lol


----------



## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

tell me more about the phasing issues you've heard? I'd love to see what others thought of this.


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Lycancatt said:


> tell me more about the phasing issues you've heard? I'd love to see what others thought of this.



Hey Mike! Got a short demo and from what I heard I thought you did a good job on the tune. Don't think it was me who noticed phasing issues. What I suggested to Tom based on what I heard, with the top up parked was it was a little light on the highs and a bit heavy on the midbass. So a 0.5-1.0db adjustment for possibly a demo tune. But I can understand if your goal was to set up a tune for top down while driving, totally makes sense to me. And as I said, up front sub ftw!


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I can't wait to hear this car Tom. Beautiful build! 


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Golden Ear said:


> I can't wait to hear this car Tom. Beautiful build!
> 
> 
> Sent from my mind using telekinesis



I'll be at the Aquarium 2/6. Not sure how much free time I'll have but could maybe make that happen.
Happy New Year guys!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

When Richard heard the car he said he thought the T/A could be improved or there were a few phase issues. Didn't go into great detail. When I was tuning by pairs of drivers the slightest change of frequency would send peaks and dips back and forth between left and right speakers. I thinks this is due more to reflections than anything else, and it isn't noticeable as such when playing music through the whole system - but undoubtedly low-level artifacts of it remain, which will be more noticeable under certain conditions and to certain people than others. There's always room for improvement. 

The main thing that bugged me was, at medium to high volumes with the top closed and engine off (not what we originally tuned for) sometimes rather than "impact" the midbass would feel like "pressure" - and, it saps suspension of my disbelief and brings me to the realization that I'm listening to a recording in a car rather than a performance in a room.
I've heard 2 very great, very expensive home theaters and one car that are world-class in that area. The car is orange with two hardy mid-basses in the kicks!

Anyway, Richard recommended I bump the treble gains by 1/2 dB per channel, and drop the MB by a similar amount. I did bump the tweets, and I dropped the midbasses by 3/4dB each. 

As it so often does, initial listening revealed awesomeness. The soundstage moved up (still not back, though - remains kinda forward with my upright listening/driving position) and though MB impact dropped a hair, it's probably at more accurate levels - and the over-pressure thing hasn't bothered me yet (on a whopping 2 albums I've listened to.) Detail and realism are on a whole new level. Vocal intonation and guitar-fingering are much more present and noticeable, but not spotlit or annoying. I was afraid the warmth would disappear, but so far it hasn't. May need to play with the bass knob a hair.

All I can say is I STILL love it, I'm pleased and amazed at the ability to continue to make improvements without throwing any more money at it, and those midranges and tweeters just continue to blow me away.

Thanks for all the help, and expect me to need more as I get it closer and closer to ideal.


----------



## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I wouldn't mind hearing the changes/improvements sometime.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Need a GTG when the weather improves.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Need a GTG when the weather improves.



Agreed!


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Re-took the distance measurements and re-calc'd T/A.
All had slight adjustments. One tweeter was by about 1/2 msec; 1 MB was off by 2!
I got the stage moved up and image seems solid. Now to spend some time listening and finding new qualities within.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Timing improved and was able to turn down the bass knob, improving bass/midbass integration. Loving the new tune.


----------



## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

are you getting a 125hz spike? If so, did you try to tame it or just let it be?


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

mbradlawrence said:


> are you getting a 125hz spike? If so, did you try to tame it or just let it be?


I haven't RTA'd it for a while, but I don't recall 125 being an issue.

Huge spike at 55, and massive dip at 80 - those were my issues.

I do have the underseats running a really narrow band, and gaps between them and the subs on the low end and mids on the higher end. But I've played with it so much I can't even remember the numbers right now.


----------



## mbradlawrence (Mar 25, 2013)

Just amazing how 6 inches wider spacing changes the responses between our cars! My 125 is a good 5 dB higher than all others!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

mbradlawrence said:


> Just amazing how 6 inches wider spacing changes the responses between our cars! My 125 is a good 5 dB higher than all others!


It is interesting!

It's probably enough that the width mode will be a key midbass frequency excited by the underseats in your car, but the frequency is just higher enough in my narrower car that I've already filtered it out. 

Now that I'm no longer bugged by frequency aberrations most of the time, (it's recording-specific, anyway) I should take a look at the EQ settings and do another RTA session to see if anything stands out. But it's tough to spend the time when I can't think of anything I need to fix.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Got the "increased battery discharge" warning a couple times, so finally broke down and got a new battery.

Went with the X2Power-branded Northstar AGM unit. Size 94R. It's about 2 inches longer than the "standard" size 48, but is listed as Optional for the car.
1430A / 840 CCA, 76Ah and supposed 158 minutes reserve. 
Their scanner was broken so I had to drive to another shop to have the ECU programmed for bigger AGM battery.


----------



## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm glad to see your keeping up with learning and experimenting, I've kind of wanted to play with your car again top up as I feel we didn't do enough to it top down because we didn't have to worry about reflections.


----------



## jones83 (Dec 31, 2016)

Was just looking to see if anyone has a custom grille setup on an Illusion Audio C10. What a lovely setup!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks!
Bing and his crew did hit it out of the party.

I haven't been on here much since I'm just enjoying it as is.


----------

