# Zuki Audio Eleets 4ch Amplifier



## Lanson

Patrick here in Vegas gave me a chance to try something new while I was waiting for a new amp for my system. I don't know exactly how I got so lucky to meet Patrick, but maybe Karma works this time around! At any rate, its been interesting, to say the least. 

Here's some interesting tidbits about the Zuki amp:

1. It's very heavy for its size, indicating excellent build quality, and meaty heatsinks. Sure enough, its one of the most substantial heatsinks I've put my hands on, ever. 

2. It says it puts out 5 watts per channel, at .005% distortion. Now, what I can tell you is that this is underrated quite severely. I honestly don't know how much power it puts out, but I'd say it was a fair amount above the rated output. 

3. Internally, it looks like art. Simple, clean design with no jumper wires, very nice to see. I'm not an amp expert (like Chad, or Patrick himself), but it was impressive. 

4. It is a dual power supply, symmetric design. Essentially, it runs as though it is two amps on one board. Its completely isolated, like running a pair of monos. 

5. The crossover and simple EQ design works very well, and feels substantial and worthy of being onboard this amp. It is noise free, and very accurate. I like it.

6. Wow, thats the brightest power-on blue L.E.D. I've ever seen, Patrick! Damn thing lights up my entire amp area. LOL! I can make system adjustments just by that blue light bathing the area. Small detail, but a nice touch.

7. If you like black, simple, and understated, you'll appreciate the looks of this thing. It is the anti-bling design that I love so much, and I'm sure most of you will, too. 

8. It has a very small, height, width, and length, overall. I haven't broken out the tape measure on it, but I'd estimate it to be about 17 x 2 x 8 or so. 

9. All the power, RCA, and speaker hookups are on one side, making for a cleaner install. 

10. The Zuki Audio Badge on top of the amp is reversible, so the amp looks good facing forward or backward. I'm not sure Patrick intended it to do that, but I found out it was easy enough to change around. 

11. Honestly, I'm really pumped up to hear it on some decent speakers, as soon as I get the chance to put them in. My current stock setup on the front end is simply not doing this amp justice. It does sound clean and clear, though, so I can't complain. I feel as though I'm doing this amp an injustice running it like this though. We'll fix that ASAP.

12. I did hear it on a good system, and that's Patrick's killer test system in his work truck. I can tell you that it puts out what feels to be hundreds and hundreds of clean, powerful, detailed watts. I think the secret is to run efficient speakers, IMO. Music, naturally being dynamic, sounds just like it should, no matter what you do with the volume knob. Put this in perspective - Patrick's system has two Dynaudio 7" woofers in the door, some amazing tweeter/horn (forgive me, I can barely remember it, I was too stunned by other things) device under the dash on each side, and two very large square subwoofers (using Kicker parts, sorta), all powered off this amp. Running off of a Denford head unit, with NO processing or equalization, the system simply kicked ass. My jaw's indentation is probably still visible on the truck's carpet floor. It was like being inside my favorite Sennheiser earphones, just bathed in clear, precise sound. 

I did kill the first Zuki amp within an hour of hooking it up. I place the blame now on my subwoofer, which we've talked about on DIYMA at length. Fair enough to say that the amp probably went into a dead-zero impedance for a good while trying to push this sub, and finally gave way at the power supply. The damage done was impressive, Patrick (who I'm glad wasn't terribly pissed off at me for destroying one of his babies) observed that the power supply looked burnt at the edges, and must have lost it when the dead-short happened for a while. He warned me that since the amp was designed to be the absolute best in sound quality, with no compromises, the fail-safe features had to be reduced, so they didn't interfere with the sound. Fair enough, just know your system before you install it, I suppose.

I feel fortunate and extremely lucky to have been given the chance to show you guys this thing. I'm not sure why I was chosen, other then the fact I'm local to him. I can tell you that he's done his homework, big time. It has that wonderful sound quality that disproves the watt-is-a-watt theory, instantly. I'm not going to start a debate (or war) about the whole issue, but I can tell you that this amp is accurate, natural, and effortless, despite its very low wattage ratings. Consider it with an extra "0" at the end of the "5", because thats what it feels like, dead minimum. I'm still stunned by what I hear when I bring on the volume, especially with the amp bridged. In fact, for those wondering how they could best use this amp, I would suggest running it bridged if you are going to power passives. If running active, I'd run it standard, or even consider going with multiple amps, bridging each one. I was thinking about how I'd build a super system with this amp, and I could easily see running 3 of them. Amp one operating as a bridged pair, each side to a 12" sub. I think you could run this at a low impedance, judging by what I heard in Patrick's system. Possibly 2 ohm even while bridged! Amp 2 would be running the tweeters, and the midrange. Amp 3 would be running bridged to the mid-bass. There is no reason to have that much power, but it would be very enjoyable nonetheless. I'm sure you'd be happy with just one, as long as you ran efficient equipment.

I do intend to update this review, and post pictures of the amp internally once given the all-clear from Patrick to do so. Since it is his choice to show the internals, I've chosen for now just to show you the externals. Enjoy!


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## technobug

Nice!

I'm gonna be in Vegas this week. Any chance of auditioning some equipment?


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## Lanson

My system is still in shambles, but I'll ask Patrick if he'd let you hear his setup. He's more of an amp and speaker master then he is a social butterfly...LOL so he's the opposite of me! He's probably forgotten less about audio then I'll ever learn about it. And I thought I was decent...pffft!


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## azngotskills

I love the looks and simplicity of it. I really want to know rated power number sthough out of curiousity. Seem likes a nice start up company and wish you the best Zuki. Hopefully i will get a chance to hear/use some of your products in the future.


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## The Blue Blur

5W is rated power. I would love to see one of his amps benched just to know what to expect out of them. It's hard to plan a system without knowing what kind of power you're working with. I am quite intrigued though. What's the range on the crossover pots? By the way, is this the amp he's selling for $290?


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## 3.5max6spd

I'd like to see a 'typical rms rating' per channel listed if his choice is to go with such power ratings. Cosmetically its a looker! Looks like a black, reverse lay out DLS Ultimate-ish type heatsink.


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## tRidiot

Absolutely agree. In today's world you can't rate an amp at 5W RMS and expect people to seriously consider it. Come on, how can you plan a system like that? I really love the appearance of the amp, and I love overbuilt designs, but without some real power ratings (even if it's 30x4), I'd never consider it, unfortunately. I don't have the money to throw away buying some amp just to see if it'll do the power I need.

Sorry zuke, not baggin' on ya here, but if you want to sell more than a couple of these things, I think you're gonna need to let people know what they do. I know you like trying to be mysterious and high-end and all (don't ask me why), but people want to KNOW what they're buying. At least I do....

Good luck, man.


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## SteveLPfreak

We have a Audio Precision System Two here at work I use on a regular basis. If you wanna send me the amp, I'll bench it for you. It would take me (2) days after receipt of the amp to test it.


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## durwood

I love amps that use no bling. A nice big heatsink and a small footprint is all I want for bling. Is this a pure Class A amp or is he just trying to sell a cheater amp for competitions? I agree if he really wants to sell a few of these he should at least rate it properly. Have any internal pictures?


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## Boostedrex

Where can you find Zuki Audio products?


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## hc_TK

put out some internal pixx


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## Mr Marv

Boostedrex said:


> Where can you find Zuki Audio products?


http://zukiaudio.com/


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## FoxPro5

Subscribed for real power measurements and gut pics.


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## 89grand

Looks like a nice amp. It looks well built, but the 5w x 4/10w x 2 rating is pretty stupid. I wonder what the point was in doing it.

Most noobs would say "Man, my headunit puts out 50w x 4, who wants an amp that does 5 watts?"


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## Lanson

Who cares what it puts out. Think about that. Who are you trying to impress? Yourself? It sounds great, thats what counts to me. However, it is extremely important to run fairly efficient gear. 

f


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## Hobbes26

^^^

I think the power rating is awesome. He should actually rate it at 1 W @0.00001% thd or something like that.

Kind of a tongue-in-cheek rating and name? I mean, with a name like "Eleets"... Maybe his sub amp will be called "Powah!" and be rated at 20W...


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## tRidiot

fourthmeal said:


> Who cares what it puts out. Think about that. Who are you trying to impress? Yourself? It sounds great, thats what counts to me. However, it is extremely important to run fairly efficient gear.
> 
> f


I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm trying to find equipment that will do what I want it to do. 5W will not drive any aftermarket speakers to levels I like to listen to music at. Maybe sitting at home in a sealed, deadened car in the middle of the night in a garage... but certainly not driving around town.

I think that's kind of a ridiculous comment, to suggest that when we're looking at power ratings, we're only looking to impress others.


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## FoxPro5

fourthmeal said:


> Who cares what it puts out. Think about that. Who are you trying to impress? Yourself? It sounds great, thats what counts to me. However, it is extremely important to run fairly efficient gear.


You are joking right? How bout it doesn't amplify at all, it just senses that you think it sounds great and uses magic to make the speakers louder.  

Define "fairly efficient" gear.

Where's Zuki when you need him? I really like the amp, it's definitely something that could sell but the consumers need to get the dl on it first. His website doesn't have the details, so where do we get them??


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## Lanson

It is not putting out 5W of power. Thats what it is rated for. It is up to Patrick to rate the amp the way he wants. I'm sure its less about what it can do and more about what it sounds like, for him. He built it according to what it sounded like, entirely. If it took 4000 watts of power to do what he wanted, then ok. But, if it took only 5 to 10W of power, then great. In the end, it gets loud (I'm talking VERY loud, like "ow ow ow ow" loud), and it plays clean and clear.

I suggested running efficient equipment because with the amp, it isn't a 150W per channel machine, but instead it can run low impedances. It can easily run 2ohm bridged.

Fairly efficient to me means something like Seas 4 ohm, Canton, Aura, Altec, JBL, etc. Something that responds to one watt very well, like in the 91-95dB @ 1 meter, 1 watt range. 

I'd also recommend a line driver, or a head unit that puts out near 5 volts. It really seems to come alive then. 

For Patrick (Zuki), I'm not sure what his intentions are, or what he wants to do with the business. Its none of my business to know, really. I do know he gave me the amp to use in my car because he wanted feedback (good and bad) on what it can do, and how it sounds. And thats what it boils down to, really. It sounds great, and has no problem pushing speakers fairly hard. What you do from there is up to you.


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## Hobbes26

tRdoc said:


> I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm trying to find equipment that will do what I want it to do. 5W will not drive any aftermarket speakers to levels I like to listen to music at. Maybe sitting at home in a sealed, deadened car in the middle of the night in a garage... but certainly not driving around town.
> 
> I think that's kind of a ridiculous comment, to suggest that when we're looking at power ratings, we're only looking to impress others.


It's 5W.... but did you take a look at the distortion number? 

10 W x 2 @ 2ohms @ 0.005% thd

You're gonna get more power with <0.05%thd or <0.1%thd where other amps are usually rated


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## FoxPro5

Good stuff fourth, I appreciate the feeback.

So you tested this amp on your stock speakers, correct? Have you ever amped them before? Did you level match? What attributes of the sound improvement were due strictly to the amp? Just legit questions I'm sure everyone is wondering. 

Explain the comment on the line driver again, please. No HU will put out 5v in the real world. What's the input sensitivity on this amp? 

Oh and the fact that you can reverse the label on the amp is totally kick ass!  Nice attention to detail.


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## Lanson

No problem B-Squad, just trying to answer your questions as they come, I certainly don't mind talking about it.

For me, yes, I am running them on my stock speakers. Don't laugh too hard, they are neodymium drivers, and they have not-too-sucky output and detail. Certainly I'm going to work on this part of the car. I think I'm going to try out some Cantons, since Patrick highly recommends them (they are a bit of an unknown in the car audio world, not unlike the PRS 720 components were for a while), and we'll try them out in passive AND active arrangements. 

Keep in mind that while I'm running stock right now, we tried tons of different combinations in the doors, and each combo sounded good on the amp. We played with Dynaudio, CDT, JBL ol' skool, Kicker, some prototype poly's, Canton, and a few random things we didn't even know who made them. So, I definitely got to hear lots of different setups. We had to do this without my head unit running the signal, though. Instead, we took a Denon high end DVD/CD player and dragged it outside and put it on a bench. This had a variable output line-out, adjustable from the CD player. We did this because the head unit with the 3sixty.2 couldn't give us the right output voltage the way it was set up, and i didn't have a palm OS to get into the processor. What we noticed is that my 3sixty.2 is backed way down on the gains, and I need to borrow my friend's palm OS to get those back up. The Zuki amp likes a high voltage RCA in, if you can give it one. There's nothing wrong with bumping the gains of the amp either, but its better if you can do it with a higher voltage to the RCA line. For instance, Patrick uses one of those Denford CD head units in his setup. I think it puts out 5V or so.

As far as what I ran prior, well as you know I did have those Mark Antony's. Those were very powerful amps. However, they sounded much more muffled and less detailed then the Zuki setup. The Zuki can't play as loud, but the stock speakers definitely have not sounded better, ever. It is as though one lifts a vail from your speakers, that you didn't know previously existed. And then you are like, "oh, so THAT'S what its supposed to sound like.." I do subscribe to the "watt is a watt" theory for the most part, but I also believe that an amp can inject a little of its personality in a speaker system, and usually this is not a good thing. The Zuki is transparent, simply put. I especially like it in bridged mode, running the front. I will be able to give more detail and insight as to what it sounds like


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## durwood

Wel it must produce a good deal of power even if it's rated low. I noticed it has two 30A fuses. This amp reminds me more of a Soundstream REF604. Soundstreams ClassA3.0 had a high current power rating of 12.5Wx2 @ 4 ohm. Since it can drive low impedances, that is where the power is going to ramp up, but of course at a higher distortion. maybe he is keeping the power rating low to advertise a lower distortion figure. 

Is the amp still working? I thought your serial killer sub killed it?


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## Lanson

LOL. He kindly replaced it for me. Actually, I drove down to meet him, where we took the blown amp apart and observed the damage. He showed me what happened, and how it happened. Amazingly, 1/2 the amplifer was still functional. It operates as two amps in a single box, basically. We did some diagnostics on the system verifying that it wasn't an RCA or speaker wire that went bad to kill the amp. All good there, then the sub was suspected, due to its unique LMT design. I've heard his amp on his subs, and they sucked the air out of my lungs with the power. That was at 2ohms bridged on the rear channels. The SK sub has not been reconnected to the replacement amp, and will NOT be. Killing prototypes isn't my way of repaying someone who was kind enough to let me borrow it. Right now, it is bridged to the front stage, which is due for replacement ASAP.


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## kappa546

yea yall are getting too caught up in the 5w deal. heck, my LP 2.2hv's are rated at 12.5wx2 @.004% thd . of course this was done for competitions sake but it's the same principle, according to LP they never rated anything at over .05% thd. like durwood said, with 30Ax2 fuses you're probably looking at 75x4 possibly more.


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## legend94

SteveLPfreak said:


> We have a Audio Precision System Two here at work I use on a regular basis. If you wanna send me the amp, I'll bench it for you. It would take me (2) days after receipt of the amp to test it.


does this hold true for other amps someone may want to send you?


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## SteveLPfreak

Maybe - depends on the amp/person. Since the Zuki is new, I would be happy to test it and see what kind of output, THD, S/N, etc. specs it presents. I won't, however, waste time setting up a test for, let's say, one of the Marc Anthony amps off overstock.com.


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## FoxPro5

kappa546 said:


> like durwood said, with 30Ax2 fuses you're probably looking at 75x4 possibly more.


Ok, well lets just use that figure.

This is a budget-oriented DIY forum, right? So if you get and honest real world 300 watts for $1/watt, I'd say that's an _ok _deal. But the SRP on this amp is $620 shipped and you get 20 watts rated. That puts you at $31 per watt!!!! 

Now take the hypothetical real world power (using 300w) and you get just over $2 per watt.

See the value of real word ratings now? 

We don't need to start the "all watts sound the same" BS here. There's more to an amp than just power, I think we can all agree on that. Let's just appreciate this type of thinking here for a second.


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## theonion

I think y'all are missing the point on the power rating deal. I don't think anyone here is saying, "I don't like it because it's only rated at 5w." I think they're saying, "I recognize it's underrated, and I'm not hung up on ratings. But it would be nice to know what kind of real world power I'm dealing with when selecting speakers." I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong.


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## legend94

SteveLPfreak said:


> Maybe - depends on the amp/person. Since the Zuki is new, I would be happy to test it and see what kind of output, THD, S/N, etc. specs it presents. I won't, however, waste time setting up a test for, let's say, one of the Marc Anthony amps off overstock.com.


fair enough
what about a 20000 watt boss with coolant supply


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## durwood

theonion said:


> I think y'all are missing the point on the power rating deal. I don't think anyone here is saying, "I don't like it because it's only rated at 5w." I think they're saying, "I recognize it's underrated, and I'm not hung up on ratings. But it would be nice to know what kind of real world power I'm dealing with when selecting speakers." I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong.


Yep you hit it on the head. This is the exact opposite situation as the David Navone Amp that has 300W stamped on the outside of it and is tiny.

I vote for send it to Steve the LP freak


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## legend94

internals please


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## Lanson

Ok, I'd like to update everybody on what Patrick and I talked about. I can officially take questions from you, and I'll provide answers the best I can. I believe in the product based on what my ears heard, so I've talked with Patrick about what I can do for him, and we both agreed that I should take a Representative stance on the issue. He has very little time to answer questions, and take orders for those who want to own one, so feel free to message me and I will do the best I can to help you. And, I like that, because it is a great thing he's doing here. No bean counters, just sound the way he likes it. I'm sure you'll find your own love or hate relationship with what the amp is and what it can do.
Here's the basic concept of the amp:

Its not for everyone! It certainly isn't for the person who cares what it puts out. What he wants everyone to know is that the amp was designed to output 5W per channel continuous across the entire audio spectrum with .005% distortion _with the gains set at dead minimum_. What you do with the amp beyond that is all up to you. His answer is that distortion will increase, but smiles will also increase, proportionately. Its not about ratings, or even about the distortion rating. I asked him about CEA compliant ratings, and his answer is that he didn't build them for anybody who cares about ratings, really. Its about the sound, gentlemen. And in that realm, it performs great.

Internal pics will not be shown at the request of Patrick. His reasoning is a good one - you are buying good sound, not an amplifier layout. He has original ideas in it, and it is truly a one-off design mimicking no one. So, obviously if you purchase one, you'll need to cut through the warranty sticker to do so, and you are doing so at your own peril. Fair enough? 

If, for those who still care about specs (and that's OK, I was extremely "spec oriented" until I met with Patrick and now I'm not so much), there are major names in the audio world currently putting the amps through their paces. Those heads of the industry will soon release their official opinion on the amp, and you'll have your review. I'm sure it will do just fine, unless they turn off their ears.


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## SteveLPfreak

fourthmeal said:


> Ok, I'd like to update everybody on what Patrick and I talked about. I can officially take questions from you, and I'll provide answers the best I can. I believe in the product based on what my ears heard, so I've talked with Patrick about what I can do for him, and we both agreed that I should take a Representative stance on the issue. He has very little time to answer questions, and take orders for those who want to own one, so feel free to message me and I will do the best I can to help you. And, I like that, because it is a great thing he's doing here. No bean counters, just sound the way he likes it. I'm sure you'll find your own love or hate relationship with what the amp is and what it can do.
> Here's the basic concept of the amp:
> 
> Its not for everyone! It certainly isn't for the person who cares what it puts out. What he wants everyone to know is that the amp was designed to output 5W per channel continuous across the entire audio spectrum with .005% distortion _with the gains set at dead minimum_. What you do with the amp beyond that is all up to you. His answer is that distortion will increase, but smiles will also increase, proportionately. Its not about ratings, or even about the distortion rating. I asked him about CEA compliant ratings, and his answer is that he didn't build them for anybody who cares about ratings, really. Its about the sound, gentlemen. And in that realm, it performs great.
> 
> Internal pics will not be shown at the request of Patrick. His reasoning is a good one - you are buying good sound, not an amplifier layout. He has original ideas in it, and it is truly a one-off design mimicking no one. So, obviously if you purchase one, you'll need to cut through the warranty sticker to do so, and you are doing so at your own peril. Fair enough?
> 
> If, for those who still care about specs (and that's OK, I was extremely "spec oriented" until I met with Patrick and now I'm not so much), there are major names in the audio world currently putting the amps through their paces. Those heads of the industry will soon release their official opinion on the amp, and you'll have your review. I'm sure it will do just fine, unless they turn off their ears.



I, a potential customer, am OK with everything you just said except not wanting to show the internals. I want to see what is under the hood before I buy the car. I'm not spending >$600 on an amp without seeing the internals/layout/components.

The looks alone got my interest but I need more.

I certainly wish him well and look forward to more news and reviews.


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## npdang

I don't understand what the big deal is? Why no specs or pics of the internals? I'm just not buying the reasoning behind it... sure it's all about the sound but why can't we have both?


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## DonutHands

this guy sounds like an audio snob looking for audio snob customers.

foolish if you ask me.


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## 300Z

I would never call Zuki a snob person... whatever the his reasons may be for not giving any more info about the amp it is his choice, but I don't doubt he's knowledge about audio... The CD's that I got from him are the absolute best recorded CD's that I have heard period. He really knows what things are supposed to sound like.


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## chad

5W with gains at dead minimum? I dont like that phrase at all. An amp shuld put out it's max power at the bare minimum gain, it depends on how much input signal you hit it with.


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## coffee_junkee

durwood said:


> Yep you hit it on the head. This is the exact opposite situation as the David Navone Amp that has 300W stamped on the outside of it and is tiny.
> 
> I vote for send it to Steve the LP freak



Amen to that bro!

The Navone amp needs 1.5 gigawatts of power, a flux capacitor and some nitrous before it gets anywhere near 300 watts...


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## WLDock

As far as selling an amp and not showing the internals...
That is done all the time. Many don't have available pictures of their products internals.

As far as selling an amp and not giving specs...
The original SOUNDSTREAM LIL' WONDER comes to mind. They had a BIG promotional thing years ago with that product and never listed a power spec.

As far as....*"5W per channel continuous across the entire audio spectrum with 005% distortion with the gains set at dead minimum"*
That is not bad...BUT...

McINTOSH MCC602TM
- 300 watts x 2 (2, 4, or 8 ohms), 20-20kHz, 0.005%THD
- Mono: 600 Watts (1/2/4 ohms), 20-20kHz, 0.005%THD

ZAPCO C2K6.0X
-2 x 150 Watts
-2 x 300 Watts
-1 x 1200 Watts
<0.008% @ 4 ohms THD + Noise
20Hz - 20KHz, + 0dB / -0.32dB

BRAX X2000.2
- 2 x 265 watts
- 0.001% THD
- 20 Hz-20 kHz, +/- 0,2 dB

All sounds better! As they should due to the higher cost? But, it is not all about specs. IT SHOULD BE ABOUT EXCELLENT SOUND!!! THE MUSIC IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT!!

So, I don't knock the plan to push GOOD SOUND over SPECS but the type of buyer that shops on the net from smaller less know brands are not really the type to buy without specs. Besides...HOW CAN ONE LISTEN TO THE SOUND?
With no dealers, there will have to be some SERIOUS word of mouth going on..

But, who am I to say....People are free to do what they want! I don't know a damn thing about business. I am just another poor sap looking for a new career so I can have more money to take care of my family and...buy NICE audio equipment. 

I guess we will wait to see what the major names in the car audio world think...


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## Guest

I'll echo what chad said ... what does gain setting have to do with output power?

Setting the gains at minimum just means you'll need a hot input signal to achieve full, clean output. Setting the gains at maximum means that the very same full, clean output is achievable with a smaller input signal.

Unless the preamp/input-gain stage dominates the distortion of this amp ...  (and yes, i am clearly distinguishing noise from distortion)

And I also agree that honest power ratings are useful for lots more than bragging rights ...


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## unpredictableacts

is Patrick a forum member on here? if not lets get him on here to answer some questions, as far as looks it is tasteful.....what is the $50 scrastch and dent deal on his site, nothing is pictured....is that like a $50 roulette thing where you could recieve anything?


also how does it sound on that cursed elcipse woofer?


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## Lanson

Well, there was a lot said there, so let me address some of the issues brought up. One, again this amp isn't for everyone. Honestly, its not. I like it though, and I really don't have a golden ear or anything, but it sounds clean and pure, and has no problem driving any of the speaker combo's we tried during testing. I settled on a set of Cantons, which we'll run active off the Zuki amp soon enough, so I can update you with that when its done. 

I'd like to address these issues specifically:



> I, a potential customer, am OK with everything you just said except not wanting to show the internals. I want to see what is under the hood before I buy the car. I'm not spending >$600 on an amp without seeing the internals/layout/components.
> 
> The looks alone got my interest but I need more.
> 
> I certainly wish him well and look forward to more news and reviews.


I respect that, and I recommend that you open it upon purchase, or wait for others to do that. He asked me to not show the pics, not because it is some secret, it is simply his request. An owner can open one all they want (though the warranty sticker will be cut), the reason behind not opening the amp has a lot to with the fact that there are adjustments a "tweaker" could make, which would allow the amp to make TONS more power, but also cause the amp to be in danger of premature failure. Think of it as turning up the boost on a turbo car. Boost increases power, but it can get out of hand quickly.

There are no issues of patents or personal trade secrets he's hiding in there, as ANYBODY can buy the amp, open it, and voila, now they know. I had this discussion at length with Patrick, and essentially, it boils down to this: It has wonderful, simple circuitry, but because of some prints on the board, it can't be shown to a forum. Fair enough? Got a little tribute to where it came from. Vegas, baby (and no, its not a $100 poker chip, kay?)

Oh, we are working on that price. Stay tuned if you are actually interested or pm me. I don't want to break forum rules on stuff like this. I like the DIYMA community and I want to stay part of it.




> Who are these heads of industry? What sort of original ideas can't be protected by a patent (if they are in fact original)? Why not give CEA ratings so people can make decisions with regard to driver sensitivity?
> 
> I never commented in the ECA threads about Zuki's mysterious amps because it is his right to do what he wants but this is getting ridiculous. It is borderline delusional to think that a 5 wpc rating is of any use with car audio drivers. If this were a tube amp driving some DIY fostex full range horns I'd have a different opinion.
> 
> I don't think I would buy a car though if someone told me it was fast, but wouldn't tell me power, weight, torque, etc.. Even if they told me that the car was built for people who care about speed. Hell, even if they let me drive it I would still want specs and I don't think Zuki is planning on sending a demo amp to each prospective customer.
> 
> I wish Zuki luck, especially if he offers up specs.


The heads of industry will be announced once they have been established as testers. Its not a secret, we just don't know all the answers yet. Its cool, relax. Original ideas aren't patented because they don't break new ground in the way patent would require. Yet, at the same time, there is not a squirrel in a cage running things in your amplifier, either. Its just a clean design, and it works great. I really like the separated power supplies, myself. If you are wondering, this thing weighs a lot for its size. Really has the mil-spec feel to it. 

WRT CEA ratings, I asked him that myself. He shrugged and said "I didn't build it for that", which he's right ya know. Consider it "spec-less" if it bothers you. It took me a while to accept that myself. I've always been into numbers, too. 

You brought up a great point about cars, and buying with specs instead of what it feels like. Consider a car that has been built, tuned, and made to run hard, but never dyno'd or raced on a track. It has such great power, handling, and presence on the road during your test drive that you don't need specs, do you? Not one bit. Go by what you feel, and you'll be happy with the car. Its "fun to drive" feelings. Consider this amp "fun to drive" for me, and you'll understand where I'm coming from. Fair?



> don't understand what the big deal is? Why no specs or pics of the internals? I'm just not buying the reasoning behind it... sure it's all about the sound but why can't we have both?


Nguyen, I respect you and the house you built (DIYMA), so I want you to know that its not as if its secretive. I'm sure Patrick explained it best. 



> this guy sounds like an audio snob looking for audio snob customers.
> 
> foolish if you ask me.


internecine - you are the same guy who is critical of me, so I'm not going to address that issue too much. It seems like its in your nature. So, we'll let that go. However, I don't think its snobbish at all, bud. He's a pretty damn down to earth guy, with down to earth feelings on what audio is, and what it isn't. Your amazing talent of jumping to conclusions have left you a little misguided on the point in even bringing up a post like this to the community. I posted this because I wanted you all to know that if you are after a nice amplifer, and want to try something different, and certainly great on sound quality (in its transparent way of operating), then here's one to consider. Thats it. There's no special club, no VIP, no "emperor's new clothes" thing going on here. I got to see his house and his audio setups. I'm grateful for the chance to learn so much. I almost feel like he took me under his wing for a while there. It was a great thing. If he was a snob, he'd take this product to the country club and show it to his yachting partners. Last time I looked, he don't have a damn yacht. He does have a lot of speakers and amps though. 



> I would never call Zuki a snob person... whatever the his reasons may be for not giving any more info about the amp it is his choice, but I don't doubt he's knowledge about audio... The CD's that I got from him are the absolute best recorded CD's that I have heard period. He really knows what things are supposed to sound like.


I agree, his CD's are fantastic. I asked him if I could record one and bring him back the original. He looked at me a little funny (for reasons I didn't know why then, but do now) and said "just keep this one, don't copy it". The reason is copies don't come out as good. He uses top-notch pro gear just to master a CD, and he does each and every one off that. Time consuming as hell, but the quality is near perfect. Now I know!



> 5W with gains at dead minimum? I dont like that phrase at all. An amp shuld put out it's max power at the bare minimum gain, it depends on how much input signal you hit it with.


Fair enough, Chad. You've helped me out many times with amps and speakers, so I respect that. But, if that's your feelings, might I suggest either waiting for reviews, or purchasing one yourself for bench testing?


----------



## unpredictableacts

is it possible to get one to NPDANG? this would only help booost sales....I am interested in trying one especially if there are some forum discounts released. Ill even take a scrathed/dent one///would lie to try one that does 600 at 4 ohms or roughtly there baout.


----------



## Lanson

I'm unsure of what you mean unpredictableacts, 600 at around 4 ohms?

I'm afraid no Zuki amp does that. I have a Pioneer Premier ICEpower that does EXACTLY that though. Do you want that? The Zuki's are really about sound quality first, ease of use second (to me), looks third, cost fourth, and specs without listening - last.


----------



## unpredictableacts

I have a corssifre 1000d and a diamnd D5 1200.1 that will do it with out a problem......in a way i understand his purpose of rating but in some since i dont.....if he has done builds for scott at Fi then you would think he could do a amplifier able to do( benched) a 500-600watts at a 4 ohm load.......he is almost "to good" (trying to keep it sq oriented like the other high end amplifiers) for a rating.....but in a since makes people weary about trying them.....do that make sinces?....I am not bashing I am intruigued just trying to gether how Zuki and benefit me.


----------



## Lanson

Well, since wattage is logarithmic in function with audio and its output, The difference between 1000W and 100W is 10db, or double the volume. Not accounting for all the variables like power compression blah blah... Just basics here. That said, his amp (while clearly can put out more then 5W) isn't going to be a 1000W machine of terror. Much more subdued then that. But, the systems we put the amp on show that the equipment goes into mechanical limits before it goes into the amp's limits. So, the amps have power. Is it enough? My suggestion would be to try one without bridging, and if you are happy with the sound quality, but would like more volume, bridge it. You can safely bridge at lower impedances.


----------



## unpredictableacts

are they capable of 1 ohm loads?


----------



## bdubs767

fourthmeal said:


> Well, since wattage is logarithmic in function with audio and its output, The difference between 1000W and 100W is 10db, or double the volume.


you sure about that statement....


I bet my PG MS2250 @ 16ohms w/ 5 watts of output has a THD of .0000000000000000008 % , that doesn't mean a thing.


----------



## Lanson

yes, I'm sure that it takes 10X the amount of power to deliver double the audible volume. Thats physics.

Yes, it will do 1ohm loads stereo, non bridged. It has on the box (if you notice the pictures of the box) that it is rated at 10W x 2 @ 2ohms. Naturally, that means bridged. I'm sure it could do more, but Patrick explained it to me this way: audio signals on speakers end up causing the impedance to change all over the place, not just 2 or 1, or 4. Its dynamic, just like the music. Therefore, this amp can handle it, provided its not a dead short or infinite load. Since the amp lacks protection circuitry that will shut it down if you cross a wire, it is best to not do so! His intention on not having those protection circuits in place was that they diminish the sound in a unique way. By limiting the output of the power supply (controlling the draw), you also limit what the amp can do with the top end of the frequency spectrum. In other words, when a woofer or subwoofer starts pulling on the power supply, diminishing your available rail voltage, the first thing to go in terms of sound quality is the top end, not the low end. This means the amp starts to sound veiled, or loses its sparkle and air. By not incorporating these circuits, the amp must be more carefully installed and double-checked, but the payoff is better, more consistent sound, because the power supply will simply draw more and more and more until the need is satisfied, or the amp is cooked (it takes a dead short, or an infinite load for some time, as I've found). The amp was originally designed not to have onboard fuses, even. But, some things just happen.


----------



## dual700

bdubs767 said:


> you sure about that statement....
> 
> 
> I bet my PG MS2250 @ 16ohms w/ 5 watts of output has a THD of .0000000000000000008 % , that doesn't mean a thing.


Does your MS1000 performs the same? Then I'll give you $100 for it to make up for your DRZ "sin"    I kid, I kid!


----------



## unpredictableacts

dual700 said:


> Does your MS1000 performs the same? Then I'll give you $100 for it to make up for your DRZ "sin"    I kid, I kid!


save that $100 and get those much needed brakes! 
i kid, i kid! lol

I owuld love to give one of these amplifier a spend but the price and the fact that others are unsure is not a great selling point.


----------



## bdubs767

dual700 said:


> Does your MS1000 performs the same? Then I'll give you $100 for it to make up for your DRZ "sin"    I kid, I kid!



   Id run the drz over before I sell my MS1000


----------



## The Blue Blur

this has become rather entertaining, but if I may ask again what are the frequency ranges on the crossover pots? was slope ever indicated?


----------



## legend94

ive got the popcorn out  
also, chad or werewolf? at what point do thd ratings become audible?


----------



## Lanson

sure. its a 24dB/oct x-over. I don't remember the x-over frequencies, but I'm looking at the pic i put up on page one (in zoom), and it shows from left to right:

The lowpass dial shows - 30hz, 200hz, and 500hz clockwise
There is an in-out switch that goes in for low-pass, and out for high-pass. 
The bass Eq dials in at - 0dB, 10dB, and 18dB. I don't recall what it is centered at, I'll find out for you. 
The Highpass dial shows - 15hz, 70hz, and 200hz
The level signal dial shows - 5v, 2.5v, and .3v

This is repeated for channels 3 and 4, as well.

Is that sufficient? (other then the fact I don't remember the bass EQ frequency center,...)

This amp also has dual everything inside, naturally. Two power coils, capacitance rails, voltage rails, etc. I'm not an amp expert, but essentially its like a pair of engines in there. Sweet.


legend, I'd say 1% is audible. As discussed before, distortion does a lot more then become audible, though. It veils the top end, and ruins a system's air and sparkle. Since it puts out 10W @ 2ohms bridged @ .005% thd, we can see that there is plenty of power if you are willing to increase the distortion beyond whats rated. This amp has no circuitry that protects it against over-running, so it won't have that veil effect, even when pushed hard.


----------



## unpredictableacts

are you powering the dreaded eclipse woofer with this amplifier?


----------



## legend94

unpredictableacts said:


> are you powering the dreaded eclipse woofer with this amplifier?


----------



## unpredictableacts

just trying to get a feel what the amplifier can do beside push stock oem speakers to full tilt.


----------



## legend94

unpredictableacts said:


> just trying to get a feel what the amplifier can do beside push stock oem speakers to full tilt.


stop! your killing me  
im sure its built like a brick ****house


----------



## Lanson

Last response before I go to bed for the night...

No, if you read the post, it details that I'm not going to put the Eclipse on his amp again. In fact, our new plan (this isn't detailed in the post) is to run a pair of his subs, and find out how they sound with either his amp, or something else I have.

So, no on the Eclipse.

And, regarding what the oem on my front stage, if you read the post I was talking about how we tested the amp on many, many different combos of front speakers and got good results with all of them. It was exhausting, but fun. In the end, I settled on a set of Cantons for final install. But check back a few pages if you are curious what we ran. Its a long list.


----------



## SQ_Bronco

re: the "5W @ min gain @ 0.05%" thing, A/B amplifier birth sheets that I've seen which have power vs distortion charts on them (see scanned picture from zapco studio 150 manual below) actually have relatively higher distortion at lowest power. distortion seems to go down as you approach ~30% of the unclipped max rms power and then starts to climb again as you increase above ~50%, until it clips and then increases dramatically.

I don't know the reason for it, but it is consistent at least across my 3 zapcos and an old school earthquake A/B amp (which are the only amps i have sheets for), so it would seem that it is counterproductive for him to rate the amplifier at a lower power level to try to fudge the distortion numbers. There must be some other reason...

curiouser and curiouser. nice looking amp, on the outside, at least


----------



## unpredictableacts

legend94 said:


> stop! your killing me
> im sure its built like a brick ****house


lol


I have some 5.25 cantons BNIB chillin in my shop as I type.

does Scott atwell make patricks woofers?


----------



## Guest

SQ_Bronco said:


> re: the "5W @ min gain @ 0.05%" thing, A/B amplifier birth sheets that I've seen which have power vs distortion charts on them (see scanned picture from zapco studio 150 manual below) actually have relatively higher distortion at lowest power. distortion seems to go down as you approach ~30% of the unclipped max rms power and then starts to climb again as you increase above ~50%, until it clips and then increases dramatically.
> 
> I don't know the reason for it, but it is consistent at least across my 3 zapcos and an old school earthquake A/B amp (which are the only amps i have sheets for), so it would seem that it is counterproductive for him to rate the amplifier at a lower power level to try to fudge the distortion numbers. There must be some other reason...
> 
> curiouser and curiouser. nice looking amp, on the outside, at least


The reason is this : the charts displayed contain both Distortion _and_ Noise (THD + N). Assume, to first order, that the _noise floor_ stays relatively constant as output power increases. As a _percentage_, therefore, the Noise component decreases.

However, as output power continues to increase, a point is reached where _distortion components_ become approximately equal to noise floor power. After this point, as output power increases further, the THD+N will start getting worse (even as a percentage) ... being dominated by the "THD" part, rather than the "N" part.

And that's why I was careful to distinguish noise from distortion in my comments 

Of course ... all of this is a function of output signal level or power, and still has very little, in fact probably nothing, to do with _gain_ setting.

So again I'll ask ... assuming that _distortion_ is dominated by the output stage (as is the case in most audio power amplifiers delivering reasonable power to a loudspeaker load), how does the output stage know if the amp has a hot signal at the input with a low gain setting, versus a low signal at the input with a hot gain setting?


----------



## unpredictableacts

I need an Alieve.......what ever happened to to good or not good?


----------



## jearhart

unpredictableacts said:


> I need an Alieve.......what ever happened to to good or not good?


thats what we get for wanting more detailed reviews.lol


----------



## unpredictableacts

jearhart said:


> thats what we get for wanting more detailed reviews.lol


lol ture so true, seems like it would be easier if some one thatr could bench it could get a hold of one that way we could see first hand what "ZUKI" can do for me!


----------



## Luke352

Could he mean that with the .3v input and with the gain set to min sensitivity it will produce 5w. Because we all know that if we had a device capable of only .3v output voltage we would most likely have the gain a fair way up, not to min sens as I read it.

Luke


----------



## Lanson

the simple answer is, if you care about what she'll do, relax and wait for the reviews to come through. Look, that rhymed, it must be a good idea.

If you try to analyze the issue of its specs, you miss the point entirely. Its not about specs! It sounds good! At least to me. What do I know though, I'm just a home theater guy. 

Patrick owns maybe 150 amplifiers or more, and thats for car audio. Home audio I'm sure its another 50 or more. He listened to all of them, I'm sure. An amazing sight of amplifiers grace the low ceiling of an area of his workshop. Bottom line, regardless of specs, he built it to sound better then the brand names you are familiar with, some of the best in the business, to _him_, You may not agree that it sounds the best. Then again, you may. Who am I to judge. But, it won't be because of specs.


Yes scott @ fi works with Patrick on occasion. I'm unsure of their relationship, but I'm sure its healthy.


----------



## durwood

So to sum it...Patrik or Zukiaudio does not want everyone to focus on the specs. That is why he rated it low. It's purely about how it sounds. I think we get that part. I can understand that, but unless I can actually listen to one first hand, I would never buy one. 

Accurate power ratings are something I need to figure out how to power my system as is most others. I am not a big power guy so even if its 30WX4 I'd consider it. I have never run more than 50Wrms to any of my speakers anyways. I could care less about distortion specs, noise, dampening factor becasue it's USUALLY all BS anyways. The last time I decided to pick a set of amps, I sat down and did some listening comparisons. Granted, if you are the type that needs 100-200Wrms or more on your front stage, I'm guessing this amp is not for you. 

Fourthmeal-can you ask patrick if he uses a pair of transistors per channel or mulitple pairs? What type of output transistor is he using-mosfet, hexfet, bipolar? Just curious, I am sure he won't answer that.


----------



## STI<>GTO

durwood said:


> Fourthmeal-can you ask patrick if he uses a pair of transistors per channel or mulitple pairs? What type of output transistor is he using-mosfet, hexfet, bipolar? Just curious, I am sure he won't answer that.


Send him a PM, he's reading this thread as I'm typing. I don't know why he doesn't respond? It would seem to me that his target demographic is the research-to-death-on-the-knowledgable-car-audio-forums, not the Best Buy crowd. I guess all publicity is good publicity.


----------



## chad

legend94 said:


> ive got the popcorn out
> also, chad or werewolf? at what point do thd ratings become audible?


After the amplifier distortion exceeds that of the distortion the speaker makes.... Which is pretty damn high.

Da Truf is here: http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/lt/default.html

Chad


----------



## backwoods

Several people have zuki made amps as I have been told. And yes, some are well respected names.

There are some spl competitors using zuki amps. Fourthmeal has his basically to try out, but I don't think zuki was planning on having him being the "voice" of his amplifier line (no offense). 

In time, there will be some written reviews and I know of some people who like to outright punish equipment to find it's limits (like spl competitors, "they" really enjoy letting the smoke out).

Patience, my young diy'ers.

Why would Zuki allow fourthmeal to rip open his 2nd amp after the great luck he had with the first one? I would be hesitant, too. And, I assume these have been free for use?

No offense fourthmeal, but you didn't really establish credibility every where by frying 3 straight amplifiers.

All specs will come to those who wait, including pics..


(by the way, the scratch and dent @ $50 is for his limited 4 channel, there is a thread on ECA explaining how it works.)

By the way, in discussions with Zuki, he has said, all he wanted was a clean 4 channel that could power his entire system, remain cool, handle low impedances, and be very dynamic.

I mean, it's not like he wants "much" out of his amplifiers.  

I'll just say his descriptions remind me of my orion hcca amps, and hey, that wouldn't be bad.


----------



## chad

I have no issues with the lack of a power rating for the most part. But it does not make marketing sense to not publish one. Meyer Sound, which is one of the cream of the crop pro loudspeaker makers, did not publish amplifier specs for their powered boxes for a long time. When confronted about power output the answer was always "enough," and they weren't kidding. After EXTREME pressure from the industry they now publish power output but it's rather elusive.

I have built 2 amps that I never took power readings on, both were personal amps, one was tube the other SS. The SS one was a car amp long ago. I did not have proper means at the time to get an accurate reading so I said "around 60 watts per channel" Drove people nuts!

The tube amp I built sounded great, I DID have the means to measure then but just didn't for ****s and grins. People would ask... and I'd ask them to tell me, because in a home, powering efficinet speakers it's trivial, if it makes your ears bleed and does not distort you have "enough power."

On a third occasion I built a guitar amp, and it was sinister. It was all tube up to the final stage. The last tube stage was a pair of old GE 6l6's loaded down and you could vary the reactance of the load on the fly to make the "power tubes" have different distortion characteristics. From there it went to 1/2 of a crown power amp I scavenged. I never told anyone how much power it made, not even the buyer, but I said "it'd be a good idea to run it with a full stack and the drivers should be rated for 100W each"

For the record that GUITAR amp made 720W RMS    

Screw going to eleven, that hooker was LOUD!

Chad


----------



## Lanson

No offense taken, I have nothing to my name other then just being who I am. Those who know me know I'm honest, and dependable, and willing to help (though sometimes I do more harm then good). Sorry, I made it seem more complex of an issue then it really is. But, you guys really nitpick. Dissecting each and every word, as if I were a politician. And you guys wonder why Patrick doesn't come aboard and answer every question? Because people do this criticizing and critiquing of every little thing you do, and say. Some people just don't want that in their daily life. I personally don't care, because I know I make mistakes all the time, so its nothing new. 

You're right, me killing 3 amps in a row sucked bad. Its not like I could see the future though. Mark Antony amps were new to me, and they were old 2002 models. I thought it was failing because it had sat for 5 to 6 years, or that it failed often and thats the reason why Mark is no longer around. Who's to know? Killing the Zuki amp was a mistake too, but I had confidence that the first two failures were brand-based, not system based. Turns out I was wrong. I don't think I lose credibility on this, because its not as if I built the thing. Sometimes hindsight makes you look like an ass, sometimes you look like a hero. Who's to know until it happens? BTW if you were curious, I just picked up a pair of Zuki subs, so the eclipse is out. 

As for testing and reviews...the choice is up to the tester to test when they have the time to, so we don't have all the answers yet. 

As far as the internal construction...I'll leave that up to Patrick. Also, I'd have no friggin clue, its just not my thing.


----------



## Guest

I still laugh out loud everytime somebody tries to suggest that "sound" and "specs" are decorrelated. For audio power amps, nothing could be further from the truth. Every possible sonic characteristic of an audio power amp operating below clipping is captured in power, gain, frequency response, output impedance, noise and distortion. There is simply zero credible proof to "believe" otherwise.

I wonder how these amps are tested in production? Whose ears are used during the assembly process? And whose ears are used in the mmanufacturing process of the transistors, capacitors and resistors inside?


----------



## Lanson

Once again, 

Its not as though specs are not correlated to the sound. Its that the sound was what was adjusted until it was what Patrick liked. Whatever specs there are at the end of that long, time consuming adjustment and construction phase, thats what they are. So, I agree with the statement you made, but I defend that it was never stated that the specs don't agree with the sound. Its that the specs were never measured to make the sound. The sound makes the specs. Its the old form follows function / function follows form thing. 

It was his ears, because its his amp, made for him. Its not like he's got a golden ear, but he built it so it sounded good on a pair of home audio speakers, driven off of a denon transport (same one we used to test next to my car on the bench)


----------



## 3.5max6spd

If this is the method of selling an amp, it is the most outright example I've ever seen of trying to sell pixie dust, snake oil... These are not listed as cheap amplifiers.

Please just post some real world numbers that can be expected upon measuring the output of the amplifier, leave the interpretation of what it sounds like for the end user. I'm quite confident there was a range of power in mind upon conception of each model, nobody designs an amplifier backwards.


----------



## Lanson

not really. 

Consider the advantage you have when you build an amp for sound before all else. Its not like there's exotic materials, just quality stuff. There is no snake oil here, so there's no reason to accuse. Its just not been measured, because it wasn't important to him. Why all the naysayers? Its not like he's saying "buy it, because it has 5 w of power, and you know that's better then anything else!" This was an honest review that is ongoing of a product that should be at least noticed in the forum. I don't understand how this can be misconstrued. A lot of you are quick to show fangs and claws, when all thats really wanted is your ears (or eyes, in this case.) 
I think the test speakers were home speakers. Apogee Mini Grand Planars, if it matters to you. It sounded good to him, and there it is.


----------



## bdubs767

Im coming out with my own line of amps...


The amp can *FLY* _if you hire Arnold dressed as the Terminator to throw your amp, yet due to gravity it will only fly for no longer then one second._


----------



## The Blue Blur

fourthmeal said:


> A lot of you are quick to show fangs and claws, when all thats really wanted is your ears (or eyes, in this case.)


You forgot wallets  Which is why the fangs are out anyways. I don't think any different should be expected by either you or Zuki. The large contingent of this forum likes to know about their equipment in depth so running on faith is kind of hard. What's worse is that this is a product that is being hyped as being "just for our kind of crowd" so, if anyone else is like me, we WANT to like it. Also take into consideration that many here are using 8Ohm drivers so to some extent (yes I read the thread) power becomes an issue in making purchases.


----------



## Lanson

yeah, I agree with higher impedances. Of course, an interesting thing is that an 8ohm driver still has dynamic impedance. 

But there is no faith here. I'm putting the amp through the paces, and playing it with everthing I can. Today, I'm going to try to drop in the Cantons, and tune them active. 

I guess what I'm asking of everyone is not to be so critical, so eager to denounce, and just let this thread ride a bit, where the reviews people ask for, the answers you are after, will all be answered. At this point, I regret telling you that I had the amp in testing. No one is saying you need to buy this thing. I'm just trying to give updates to the information as it comes, and I'm trying to push the amp different directions. So far, its done very well.


----------



## The Blue Blur

Thank you for hearing me out before and the XO info. You are taking this rather well. It's not really on you that all this is happening though. Up to this point all there was to know about Zuki Audio was an uninformative website with some big ticket items and a preorder of a mystery amp with no info behind it at all. After that a predisposition to mistrust or criticize all things Zuki was established.


----------



## backwoods

everyone keeps talking about these amps being advertised and pushed on "this crowd", but I haven't seen zuki advertise them at all?


----------



## Lanson

Yes, thats true about the website. One reason I've heard from Patrick about it (because I felt it was a VERY important issue) was that he never got what he wanted from the webmaster. He paid a premium for the service, and as you can see, got the bare minumum. If we all knew exactly how to make a website, I'm sure you'd be more impressed by it. 

This was one of the primary reasons why I decided to represent Zuki. I'm not saying I know much more then the basics about the products Zuki is about. But, I do want to help answer questions and provide information, since I do have a lot more free time then Patrick does. Also, I know he doesn't really like answering tons of questions, he prefers to let his product speak for itself. And, I can appreciate that as much as the next guy.


----------



## TBDAugs

Pardon the intrude by this noob, Mr Fourth, but please explain the 'dynamic impedance' speaker issue you've hinted at a few times.

Or if it's well known among the more senior geekazoids please tell me and I'll do the catch up via search and go back to lurking.

Why does the audio signal cause the speaker impedance, which I thought was  fixed, to be dynamic? And what feedback mechanism does this amp use to take advantage of that?

BSEEAugs


----------



## khail19

TBDAugs said:


> Pardon the intrude by this noob, Mr Fourth, but please explain the 'dynamic impedance' speaker issue you've hinted at a few times.
> 
> Or if it's well known among the more senior geekazoids please tell me and I'll do the catch up via search and go back to lurking.
> 
> Why does the audio signal cause the speaker impedance, which I thought was  fixed, to be dynamic? And what feedback mechanism does this amp use to take advantage of that?
> 
> BSEEAugs


As I understand it (and I'm far from an expert), speaker impedance varies with frequency. Look at any impedance graph and the line will never be straight across the board. This is what allows you to have a nominal 4 ohm tweeter and woofer in a component set and still end up with a nominal 4 ohm load to the amp.


----------



## TBDAugs

ahh! Thanks, that's enough foothold for me to do the research.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Znom3.jpg

FourierTransformAugs


----------



## chad

A speaker is reactive, it has inductance, capacitance, and resistance. Together this makes the impedance. Impedance can change resistance cannot. 

So, for example, at a drivers resonant frequency the driver will.. well.. resonate therefore less energy is needed to make it move at it's resonance, therefore at this point the resistance will rise... By quite a bit.

In other words an 8 ohm driver will not remain at 8 ohms thru it's passband, it will vary depending on the mechanical and electrical characteristics of the driver in motion. In a static state it will have DC resistance which is the DCR figure.

This is also know as the impedance response curve with impedance on the y axis and frequency on the x axis. Like this: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/mirage_omnisat_v2fs/impedance.gif

Chad


----------



## Lanson

I didn't know there was a mirror thread on Elite, so I was in the dark about it until now. I also didn't know I was under scrutiny there. 

The sub having funny wiring is an LMT transducer coil sub. It isn't traditional, at all. The sub is working fine under a sub amp now. I don't push it, and I under-fused the amp in case I'm wrong about what I think causes the problems with some amps on this sub. 

I'm occasionally noticing people are putting words in my mouth, so I don't know how to address that other then to say I was willing to try his amp, I like it, and I'm willing to try other products he recommends. I have my own notions of what car audio means to me, but I'm open to new options. Thats it for now. 

The 3sixty.2 I bought was a last-ditch effort to put good sound in my car after I tried to modify the factory head unit for RCA outs with a flat response. I didn't buy a palm OS because I can't afford it right now. I borrowed my friend's phone which could access the 3sixty.2 and change it, and we set it flat with basic controls, until I get my own Palm. 

All the rest isn't important, so I won't address it.


----------



## TBDAugs

Thanks, yup, I get it... forgot the voice coil was moving within a magnetic field, which the first law says will react equally to oppose the thing what moves it...frequency. 

Still unclear now as to how the Zuki amp makes better sq using this known phenomenon.

Lenz'sLawAugs


----------



## chad

the 360 won't accept a serial input from a laptop? That's effed up!


----------



## Lanson

Zuki's amp doesn't use this phenomenon for better SQ. All amps deal with variable impedances. What is important is that thanks to this phenomenon, the whole watts issue just becomes moot, because the load is dynamic, the power is dynamic, and everything changes all the time. Amps don't power lightbulbs, so wattage isn't really that important. Having plenty of room to play the music you want to play, at the volume you want to play,...that is important, IMO. So, nominal power with a TON of headroom would be ideal, right?

no, it requires a bluetooth. Also, I don't have a laptop, so I'd be screwed then, too. I'm working on a solution. Meanwhile, my friend drops by all the time, his phone has the software onboard, and we fiddle when he's here.


----------



## chad

Lightbulbs have an impedance curve... during warmup, that's how tweeter protection works 

Bluetooth... Hmmmmm... Bastards!

A used laptop would be the best bet instead of running out and buying a palm. Is the software available for PC? Sorry, I don't know the unit.

Chad


----------



## Lanson

hop on rf's website, load up the info on the 3sixty.2, and you'll see everything under specs and such.


----------



## chad

fourthmeal said:


> hop on rf's website, load up the info on the 3sixty.2, and you'll see everything under specs and such.


Will do! I recently bought a used Omnibook 6000 PIII 700Meg for $125. I dropped a big ass drive in it and more memory for cheap, little banger for under 2 bills!

Just FYI

Chad


----------



## dingaling

anyone volunteer to bench this test?
i'll volunteer if someone wants to give the amp up for a week.
I can test 2, 4 and 8ohm loads along with a distortion reading.
I can also do some listening tests on my Magnepan 3.6r's too.

common someone send me something to play with


----------



## kappa546

dingaling said:


> anyone volunteer to bench this test?
> i'll volunteer if someone wants to give the amp up for a week.
> I can test 2, 4 and 8ohm loads along with a distortion reading.
> I can also do some listening tests on my Magnepan 3.6r's too.
> 
> common someone send me something to play with


i'd be willing to send you my Linear power 4503iq once it gets back from TIPS getting modded.


----------



## dingaling

what amp is that? is it special? the reason i'm curious bout this one is cuz its 'rated' at 5wpc and supposedly sounds awesome? So this thread has bitten me with the curiosity bug...


----------



## legend94

Autiophile said:


> What if I need to know what gauge speaker wire to use with Zuki's amp? I guess at 5 wpc if I use 22 gauge speaker wire that'd almost be overkill.


I have some that I will send you. Its 20 gauge, would that be to big?


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## legend94

chad said:


> After the amplifier distortion exceeds that of the distortion the speaker makes.... Which is pretty damn high.
> 
> Da Truf is here: http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/lt/default.html
> 
> Chad



good stuff and thanks again


----------



## low

dingaling said:


> anyone volunteer to bench this test?
> i'll volunteer if someone wants to give the amp up for a week.
> I can test 2, 4 and 8ohm loads along with a distortion reading.
> I can also do some listening tests on my Magnepan 3.6r's too.
> 
> common someone send me something to play with


please test when youre in socal, thanks.


----------



## kappa546

dingaling said:


> what amp is that? is it special? the reason i'm curious bout this one is cuz its 'rated' at 5wpc and supposedly sounds awesome? So this thread has bitten me with the curiosity bug...


it's a great amp, always wondered what it puts out. i'm sure it wont disappoint in a subjective test and i'd like to hear your opinions on it.


----------



## Luke352

fourthmeal said:


> Zuki's amp doesn't use this phenomenon for better SQ. All amps deal with variable impedances. What is important is that thanks to this phenomenon, the whole watts issue just becomes moot, because the load is dynamic, the power is dynamic, and everything changes all the time. Amps don't power lightbulbs, so wattage isn't really that important. Having plenty of room to play the music you want to play, at the volume you want to play,...that is important, IMO. So, nominal power with a TON of headroom would be ideal, right?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> But one point of interest is that DLS also used to rate there amps with 3 power ratings, along a similar line they had a plain RMS rating then they had a Dynamic RMS (i think it was) and Peak. But the reason they stopped doing it was because no one really understood what they where getting at, in that a normal RMS rating is what you get playing tone, pretty useless info, there Dynamic rating aloud you to see what it produced up to typically under a normal reactive speaker load, so it was handy in matching amps to speakers. Then of course there was the peak rating which you get every so often when lightening strikes that kind of thing.
> 
> So that having been the case for DLS, why can't Zuki do something similar in that yes here is your 5w rating but you can typically expect to see in a normal reactive speaker load the amp will typically make up to 70w's or whatever the case may be.
> 
> I think that would be a pretty fair thing for people to ask for and it will help those specs people out there trust in this product some more.
> 
> Luke


----------



## Lanson

I'm going to leave this all alone at the request of Patrick (remember what I said about industry leaders testing it? your answers will come then), except that I want to say that I just finished installing the Canton component set in the car. It just kicks ass now. I brought the volume up slowly, listening for any distortion, and eventually I just ran out of tolerance for the volume. It was where I think I'd never want it higher, and both the speakers and the amp were not the least bit strained. This was passive, bridged. I'm going to go active here in a while, and I'll keep you up to date on that. Thats how most of us will enjoy this amp, right?

For reference, the Canton set was the RS2.160, which during testing sounded just about right. I mounted the tweeter in the stock sail panel, flush mount. The woofer was mounted in the stock door location, with an MDF baffle. Liberal amounts of Raamat and Ensolite were used, and i made a rolled Ensolite lip around the baffle so the door skin would rest against it, instead of allowing the speaker's sound to diffract around the inner skin. All in all, it was a clean, easy to do install. I may swap the woofer for a prototype long throw to see if there is a difference in midbass output, but otherwise I'm very happy. This amp (despite what ratings it has, it doesn't mean anything) seems to have less strain then the Mark Antony did, especially on the upper frequency spectrum. It also is better IMO then my previous installs PPI DCX 300.4 amp, but that system was running the Alpine X's, so there may be too many variables in that system to judge correctly.


----------



## ArcL100

Wow this thread is long. All I know is those amps are pretty damn expensive.

-aaron


----------



## The Blue Blur

fourthmeal said:


> Zuki's amp doesn't use this phenomenon for better SQ. All amps deal with variable impedances. What is important is that thanks to this phenomenon, the whole watts issue just becomes moot, because the load is dynamic, the power is dynamic, and everything changes all the time. Amps don't power lightbulbs, so wattage isn't really that important. Having plenty of room to play the music you want to play, at the volume you want to play,...that is important, IMO. So, nominal power with a TON of headroom would be ideal, right?


What I stated still informed. While the impedence character of a driver is dynamic, you can't tell me an 8 Ohm nominal driver will see the same power as a 4 ohm nominal driver and this difference will influence the purchases of the type of person I described. Is it all people? No. Still many here like their fair share of overkill.


----------



## unpredictableacts

fourthmeal said:


> I'm going to leave this all alone at the request of Patrick (remember what I said about industry leaders testing it? your answers will come then), except that I want to say that I just finished installing the Canton component set in the car. It just kicks ass now. I brought the volume up slowly, listening for any distortion, and eventually I just ran out of tolerance for the volume. It was where I think I'd never want it higher, and both the speakers and the amp were not the least bit strained. This was passive, bridged. I'm going to go active here in a while, and I'll keep you up to date on that. Thats how most of us will enjoy this amp, right?
> 
> For reference, the Canton set was the RS2.160, which during testing sounded just about right. I mounted the tweeter in the stock sail panel, flush mount. The woofer was mounted in the stock door location, with an MDF baffle. Liberal amounts of Raamat and Ensolite were used, and i made a rolled Ensolite lip around the baffle so the door skin would rest against it, instead of allowing the speaker's sound to diffract around the inner skin. All in all, it was a clean, easy to do install. I may swap the woofer for a prototype long throw to see if there is a difference in midbass output, but otherwise I'm very happy. This amp (despite what ratings it has, it doesn't mean anything) seems to have less strain then the Mark Antony did, especially on the upper frequency spectrum. It also is better IMO then my previous installs PPI DCX 300.4 amp, but that system was running the Alpine X's, so there may be too many variables in that system to judge correctly.


Have you updated your install thread?


----------



## Lanson

Honestly I didn't update my install thread...I didn't really think people are interested anymore. Doors are easy. Plus, I had raamat **** all over my hands the whole time, so getting the camera out wasn't happening. 

BTW, neat little trick I learned about raamat's very nasty **** you get on your hands...It comes off with the slightest of rubbing when you use FABREEZE. I found that out inadvertently. Its better then soap!


----------



## legend94

i still want to see internals


----------



## technobug

fourthmeal said:


> Honestly I didn't update my install thread...I didn't really think people are interested anymore. Doors are easy. Plus, I had raamat **** all over my hands the whole time, so getting the camera out wasn't happening.
> 
> BTW, neat little trick I learned about raamat's very nasty **** you get on your hands...It comes off with the slightest of rubbing when you use FABREEZE. I found that out inadvertently. Its better then soap!


WD40 does the trick too. WD40 will take all ofthat stuff. Like when you have to drill through it? Drill bit gets all gummed up with the stuff? Spray some WD40 on a rag, wrap it around the drill bit squeeze it tight and put the drill in reverse. Drill bit will look like new.


----------



## Lanson

Zuki sounds good on Cantons...mmmmm..


BTW, I like the WD-40 trick, but I use contact cleaner from the motorcycle industry...less residue. Don't use brake or carb cleaner though...ick.


----------



## kevin k.

dingaling said:


> common someone send me something to play with


Wow! A Leon sighting... and a kinky one, to boot!!


----------



## technobug

fourthmeal said:


> Zuki sounds good on Cantons...mmmmm..
> 
> 
> BTW, I like the WD-40 trick, but I use contact cleaner from the motorcycle industry...less residue. Don't use brake or carb cleaner though...ick.


Ya I work in the motorcycle industry. I have a cabinet full of contact cleaner. WD40 works better. Trust me. You can always take the WD40 off later with the contact cleaner. But the WD 40 just literally melts that mat.


----------



## technobug

kevin k. said:


> Wow! A Leon sighting... and a kinky one, to boot!!


How about WOW a Kevin sighting???? 

I hear we are going to completely glass in you footwells at Marv's to make room for that ATC and the 6600. You're gonna have to sit "indian-style".


----------



## zfactor

hey where did you pick up those cantons?? i had a set a long time ago and they were very nice


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## Lanson

why, from Patrick at Zuki Audio, of course. PM me, and I'll help you out if you want some.


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## legend94

fourthmeal said:


> why, from Patrick at Zuki Audio, of course. PM me, and I'll help you out if you want some.


anyway we could see a photo of them?


----------



## dingaling

kevin k. said:


> Wow! A Leon sighting... and a kinky one, to boot!!


LoL, oh common, the Ding is still around, although he remains nocturnal and shys away from bright lights


----------



## Guest

dingaling said:


> LoL, oh common, the Ding is still around, although he remains nocturnal and shys away from bright lights


one thing i never could stand about diyma ... all the damn vampyres


----------



## fredridge

werewolf said:


> one thing i never could stand about diyma ... all the damn vampyres


Lost Boys....Yeah


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## Lanson

legend94 said:


> anyway we could see a photo of them?



LOL....you guys are just too funny.


I can show you an empty box! The doors are stuffed w/ the speakers now.


----------



## Lanson

I had the chance to tune the system this afternoon, and we got it to an safe, neutral, active setup.

The tweeters are running 3000hz @ 24db/oct, gains on RF 3sixty.2 were brought up to near full output, and gains on Zuki amp were brought to minimum. By using Patrick's CD, we found many of the songs had great horns, cymbal crashes, and piano passages. We muted the other channels and focused on the tweeters until we got them to sound smooth and clear. Prior to that, the passive crossover was saturating, or somehow distorting the tweeters rather badly. Most notably, the tweets were more then just a bit shrill, and their output would fluctuate quite a bit. Running active, and mildly EQ'd so the shrillness evaporated, they sound lovely. Still sharp as a razor, and detailed, but they don't pierce the ear. A few songs by Teagan and Sara proved we had it right... those two chicks have a very high voice, and it was crystal clear but not abrasive. We also had some A-pillar reflections that were wrecking the cymbal's crash, so I pulled a few dB's from the 14kHz range, and smoothed it out. Imaging is still not perfect, but I imagine it has a lot to do with tweeter phase, which I will play with in the future. 

The woofers are band-passed at 2750hz @ 12db/oct, and 65hz, gains again adjusted to give the Zuki a minimum gain setting. I added a soft EQ rise near the 70,80, and 90hz regions, to give the up-front bass feeling a bit more "punch", and it also helped blend the sub a bit. By x-over @ 12dB/oct instead of the tweeter's 24dB/oct, I noticed the blending from tweeter to woofer was a bit less noticeable, so music didn't bounce from low to high in the door nearly as much. I think in the end, if I could find a woofer that replaced the Cantons with something that had more mid-bass bite, I'd be even happier, but its absolutely great as it is right now.

Lastly, the sub was flattened out to match the mild cabin gain that occurs in my car with all 4 windows down, and the seats up. Since the sub is capable of playing pretty high (at least in the 80hz without sounding odd), I passed it higher then the fronts, and used EQ to blend them together. This helped bring the Bass up front.

Our next step is to carefully tune the time alignment. I really wanted to do one change at a time, to verify that I'm happy with it. 

To reiterate, gentlemen,...this amp has more then enough power to run an active front channel setup. If you are running 3-way, then I'd probably buy a pair of these, and bridge the mid-basses for a little extra OOMPH, and you'd likely have one hell of a setup. 2-way though, it works great just powering the tweeters off channels 1 & 2, and woofers off 3 & 4. I like the output of the amp just fine, and I'd easily say it matches the output of my previous amps like my PPI, and MTX blue thunder. I can get to the volume I want, and keep it there, and it sounds just lovely. Those who know me know I love my techno and trance waaaay up there in the volume dept., and so far I can tell you that the amp doesn't disappoint. 

Thanks guys...


----------



## SQHEAD

dingaling said:


> anyone volunteer to bench this test?
> i'll volunteer if someone wants to give the amp up for a week.
> I can test 2, 4 and 8ohm loads along with a distortion reading.
> I can also do some listening tests on my Magnepan 3.6r's too.
> 
> common someone send me something to play with


Ahhh come on Leon you always get to play with new toys, let me have a crack at it. You know I have all the goodies at my disposal Just don't tell you know who....

Plus lets see how it likes the impedance swings of my Logans....


----------



## low

SQHEAD said:


> Ahhh come on Leon you always get to play with new toys, let me have a crack at it. You know I have all the goodies at my disposal Just don't tell you know who....
> 
> Plus lets see how it likes the impedance swings of my Logans....


answer my emails damnit! 

and yes will someone please test this thing??!


----------



## technobug

SQHEAD said:


> Ahhh come on Leon you always get to play with new toys, let me have a crack at it. You know I have all the goodies at my disposal Just don't tell you know who....
> 
> Plus lets see how it likes the impedance swings of my Logans....


Dude....
WTF Dave? No love for me anymore??? 

I've left a few voice mails for ya. No response.

Man you've been missin out out on some hot lil chicas!


----------



## t3sn4f2

Fourthmeal, how's the noise or hiss on this amp with no signal when the gains are raised (in a quiet car from the tweeter 2 or 3 feet away), and do you know at what gain voltage rating it becomes noticable. I ask for those of us who don't have a higher voltage preamp to feed it.


----------



## Lanson

I don't have any noise whatsoever. Amazing too, because usually the 3sixty.2 presents a bit of a noise floor, and you'd THINK the stock head unit would contribute..but, no. The 3sixty.2 doesn't have a very high voltage output. I think it is a maximum of 5V, if I'm not mistaken. 

Guys, I don't know what to say other then my car kicks ass. Its punchy, clear, and very detailed. And since I listen to mostly well-recorded, heavily layered electronic music such as trance and house, I really am biased towards something that allows musical detail in the highest regard. I also enjoy a very punchy, upfront midbass and midrange. Something that pulls the synth sounds, angelic female vocalists, and upper frequency drum kicks right to the front. I'm highly impressed. Just as a reference, I took the car out on the strip and just _blasted_ the system while driving to and from the club. I just wanted the energy of the music to bring me up to speed, and put me in that mind-state. I eventually pegged the head unit, and still had zero distortion, and a fantastic, dynamic experience in the car. Due to the extensive deadening I've done, the car was barely audible from the outside (just the way I like it), but inside, HOLY COW. 

Just very happy with the whole Zuki idea, myself. I'm considering subjecting my car to a total Zuki overhaul (and paying for it, just like I plan to do with this amp once my evaluation is considered "complete"), using his custom choice of a pair of 10's, and two of these amps.


----------



## dawgdan

fourthmeal said:


> I eventually pegged the head unit, and still had zero distortion, and a fantastic, dynamic experience in the car. Due to the extensive deadening I've done, the car was barely audible from the outside (just the way I like it), but inside, HOLY COW.


Pegged head unit with zero distortion? Somehow I doubt that, especially knowing the limitations of the factory Mazda HU.


----------



## Lanson

That's why I said "especially". Trust me, I was as surprised as you. But, the unit doesn't distort! I was playing at max for quite some time, and it didn't sound the least bit clipped. 

The factory HU in this particular car isn't junk. Its a Clarion unit, and if you take a peek at my install diary you can see the insides as I was trying to modify it (but failed to get anywhere.)

I remember setting the clip point on the 3sixty.2 with the setup disc at somewhere quite below this maximum. I think it was "25" of "35-max", during setup. Of course, that was with test tones and pink noise, or whatever else is on that disc of theirs. So, probably w/ dynamic music, I was safe at the higher levels. Certainly, the amp didn't clip.



dawgdan said:


> Pegged head unit with zero distortion? Somehow I doubt that, especially knowing the limitations of the factory Mazda HU.


----------



## GlasSman

Where are these amps being manufactured for Zuki? He sheds a little light on his business over on Elite. Looking at his website it says Designed in The USA. So am I correct in assuming that they are built overseas? Not that it really matters since I have faith that Zuki would have a someone very reputable manufacturer his products. But he did say that things don't always end up the way they were originally designed. 

Fourthmeal, have you heard any of the Zukiaudio woofers yet?


----------



## backwoods

here's a little more tease.. 

Review coming soon..

By the way, these things weigh 10lbs each and feel SOLID!


----------



## azngotskills

***trys to wait patiently***  but you should fold that laundry 1st before you get in trouble


----------



## Lanson

Nice eh?


You'll quickly find that specs mean nothing. Just like it was meant to be.

I enjoyed my experience with the amp, immensely. 

Oh, GlasSman, I have heard the 10" subs, and in fact have a pair to try out. Unfortunately, its very, very hot here in Vegas, and I fear overheating while working on making changes to my system, so I have to wait for a break in the weather. However, I have heard a single 10" in a .5 cubic foot test box, pounding away on a bridged pair of channels of the Zuki amp. It works quite well.


----------



## dodgerblue

i like the simple understated sink ! would be fun to see whats under the hood !! is that face on the owners manual ELVIS ? if so do i win a zuki amp to review for all who,s interested ?


----------



## khail19

dodgerblue said:


> i like the simple understated sink ! would be fun to see whats under the hood !! is that face on the owners manual ELVIS ? if so do i win a zuki amp to review for all who,s interested ?


That does look like Elvis, and Zuki is in Las Vegas so it makes sense to me.


----------



## Lanson

What happens in Vegas....


----------



## backwoods

azngotskills said:


> ***trys to wait patiently***  but you should fold that laundry 1st before you get in trouble


 
why do you think I haven't typed a review yet! :blush: 


currently they are doing well on my ML's, while I fold away!


Next up, go and dig up a shrub and transplant it, then some more testing, followed by a review.


----------



## fredridge

Those look great. I definitely think he needs some better, more pics on his sight.

I can't wait to see mine. I ordered one of the scratch and dent specials 

Anyone got one of those yet?


----------



## Lanson

What do you think about the reversible nameplate? Genius, IMO.


----------



## GlasSman

Not sure about genious. But very handy. Am I gonna have to buy one of those just to see the guts?


----------



## fredridge

Just got my two Zuki eleet 4 channels, they are extremely solid and bigger than I thought. pics on the previous page, not much else I can add.... Install won't be done for a month so I will review after that.


----------



## legend94

anyone going to show internals?


----------



## fredridge

Mine have a seal with serial numbers and warning stickers that void warranty, so I will not be showing internals. 

So far I am impressed with how solid it feels. 

I will let you know how it sounds when I get it in, but since I really can't tell any difference by looking at internals I am not in a hurry to do that.



legend94 said:


> anyone going to show internals?


----------



## GlasSman

GlasSman said:


> Where are these amps being manufactured for Zuki? He sheds a little light on his business over on Elite. Looking at his website it says Designed in The USA. So am I correct in assuming that they are built overseas? Not that it really matters since I have faith that Zuki would have a someone very reputable manufacturer his products. But he did say that things don't always end up the way they were originally designed.
> 
> Fourthmeal, have you heard any of the Zukiaudio woofers yet?


Even a "I don't want to answer that question" or " I Don't know" would be nice.


----------



## Lanson

GlasSman said:


> Even a "I don't want to answer that question" or " I Don't know" would be nice.



Well, no problem. I'll say "I don't know" to the first part.

But, yes, I've heard the subs he had made, and they are great in small boxes. A .5 cubic foot area or less for a 10", with good extension and excellent spl. Great compromise given the iron law around subs.


----------



## backwoods

Here is a shortened review of the zuki eleets 4 channel amps.


I have used these amps on my martin logans in my house, as well as swapped them into 3 different current systemsalong with a couple sets of towers. 

For those that don't want an in depth review and are looking for a quick summation. This should tell you all you need to know. I am a collector of different audio products, and when I find a product I really enjoy, I can never bring myself to get rid of it. Some products that just will never escape my grasp, would be my genesis dual mono, my brax 2000.2 along with my ppi pc chrome amps. These are some of my alltime fav's and have ended up always swapping them back in, whenever I have tried others.

I also just received a Zapco DC1000.4, and couldn't decide what amp I wanted to use where. Hence the listening tests continued. For now, I am not gonna write up a long review explaining the differences I found in listening to different tracks. But, even with all the processing available on the DC amps, I have settled on using the zuki's in my main vehicle. 

I have always been impressed with the staging whenever I have used my genesis. Left and right has always been extremely clear and focused, resulting in a much more defined stage, and seemingly added depth. For tonality, I have been a large fan of the brax amplifiers, even without having a chance to audition them on some dyns (which everyone claims is an unstoppable combination). 

These zuki eleets seem to offer the best of both worlds. The stage is clear and defined, tonality, they seem to be some of the best sounding car amps I have ever used. Currently, I can't find anything that I haven't enjoyed when using these amplifiers. 

Between the punishment electrostats can dish out, along with the revealing ability of horns, these amps have continued to shine. These amps are able to have power on tap, and handle large impedance swings without turning into a giant ashtray.


As far as tonality, these amps present a very smooth upper end, even with the ribbons I use in my bookshelves. They may not be the best to use if you prefer a very laid back tweeter. The combination may result in some detail being lost in the upper end, but its midrange performance and voice reproduction will make you feel like someone is in the room talking to you. 

When I hooked up a set of towers that use the usher 8" drivers, the warmth from diana krall's sultry voice had me at "full attention". With my electrostats, Boyz II men took a sense of realism that I haven't had the pleasure of enjoying for a long time. 

In my current creation using horns and some 8" midranges, Back in black album had a sharp edge on the guitars and there was no doubt that angus could get your blood pumping.

These amps shined in each system, and there was no doubt they brought some of their attitude with them, no matter what they were powering. Amazingly, each driver seemed to bring out its best quality while being powered by the zuki's.

Only part that has me some concerned, is the upper end. It creates a very smooth response, but it does seem to lack some detail in that area. I wouldn't hesitate to throw a metal dome, or ribbon on there, but might think twice about using them along with a fabric tweeter. It may be so laid back, that it starts to disappear. 


You can double the price on these amps, before you start finding adequate competition. 

Needless to say, they have found a permanent home in my mustang, and have relegated my zapco's to the daily driver, where it's more about volume, then critical listening.


As far as internal pics, I will not post them until Zuki gives an A-ok on it. His reasoning is very sound for not wanting it out there, and I will continue to respect his wishes. 

Let me just say, that whatever is in there, will not disappoint.  

If I was looking for amps, I would get in on these before he realizes he has priced them way too low...


----------



## durwood

Cool thanks for another review on these. They sound like something I would love to use, but they don't quite fit in my budget for now.


----------



## fredridge

Backwoods, thanks for the great review.

I can't wait to get mine in my car. 

How do you think these will fair with my DLS Ir 6.3's It has a silk dome tweet

Also, you mentioned it's output ability, can you expand just a bit. One of the big 'questions' has been the 5 watt ratings

thanks


----------



## Lanson

backwoods said:


> As far as internal pics, I will not post them until Zuki gives an A-ok on it. His reasoning is very sound for not wanting it out there, and I will continue to respect his wishes.
> 
> Let me just say, that whatever is in there, will not disappoint.


 
I keep saying the same thing, but I still get nasty PM's  

Got to respect someone's wishes, especially when it comes down to things like this. 

Excellent review, far more detailed then mine, and much more accurate IMO. I didn't think much about the softness in the very top end, because I really enjoy that type of sound, as long as the detail is still present. It is one of those things that this amp does very well with - it is extremely good at keeping you listening, and avoiding ear fatigue. If that makes sense...


----------



## backwoods

fredridge said:


> Backwoods, thanks for the great review.
> 
> I can't wait to get mine in my car.
> 
> How do you think these will fair with my DLS Ir 6.3's It has a silk dome tweet
> 
> Also, you mentioned it's output ability, can you expand just a bit. One of the big 'questions' has been the 5 watt ratings
> 
> thanks


Honestly, I haven't tried them on a silk dome yet, so you may be fine, I would just be tentitive. It may require a little eq up top to bring them to life. 

As far as output, I have not been limited while using them. I would say that 75x4 isn't completely out of the question.


----------



## fredridge

nor problem, I have 2 of the 4 channels and will be running them both in 2 channel mode so that should give me plenty.


----------



## Boostedrex

I just looked over things on the Zuki Audio webpage. I love the look of those amps. But it sucks that there are no links with information about them. The only thing you can click on is the buy it now button.  Are there spec sheets for these amps anywhere? Do they have on-board X-overs? I'd just like to read some more on them.


----------



## fredridge

Check out a few pages back, you will see some pics that give you crossover info. Not a whole lot of specs anywhere on these. 

Honestly we are so used to such high power ratings and such it is hard for us to understand how loud "5 watts" is going to sound. I am wanting to try a temp hookup on mine to find out. 

From what I get from Zuki, these are not going to be super loud, but designed for extreme SQ.

The 5 watt rating is not designed as a joke, but as a real rating that is secondary to all of his criteria. 

I think it comes down to the idea of performance. Honestly you can't talk (e-mail) the guy about performance without him bringing the conversation back to an issue of quality.

For some of us when we think performance we think big block, high torque straight line performance. For others when we think performance we think balance, engineering and all around finesse. Some think Viper and Some think Porsche..... Zuki thinks Porsche.

Again, build quality is excellent, fit and finish are clean. I have yet to drive, but I am hoping I end ep with Corvette, which I see as the best of both. More than enough power, with the finesse to really enjoy the drive 





Boostedrex said:


> I just looked over things on the Zuki Audio webpage. I love the look of those amps. But it sucks that there are no links with information about them. The only thing you can click on is the buy it now button.  Are there spec sheets for these amps anywhere? Do they have on-board X-overs? I'd just like to read some more on them.


----------



## Boostedrex

Fair enough. I'll just wait for you to audition your amps and go from there. Thanks for the explination Fred.

Zach


----------



## t3sn4f2

fredridge said:


> Check out a few pages back, you will see some pics that give you crossover info. Not a whole lot of specs anywhere on these.
> 
> Honestly we are so used to such high power ratings and such it is hard for us to understand how loud "5 watts" is going to sound. I am wanting to try a temp hookup on mine to find out.
> 
> From what I get from Zuki, these are not going to be super loud, but designed for extreme SQ.
> 
> The 5 watt rating is not designed as a joke, but as a real rating that is secondary to all of his criteria.
> 
> I think it comes down to the idea of performance. Honestly you can't talk (e-mail) the guy about performance without him bringing the conversation back to an issue of quality.
> 
> For some of us when we think performance we think big block, high torque straight line performance. For others when we think performance we think balance, engineering and all around finesse. Some think Viper and Some think Porsche..... Zuki thinks Porsche.
> 
> Again, build quality is excellent, fit and finish are clean. I have yet to drive, but I am hoping I end ep with Corvette, which I see as the best of both. More than enough power, with the finesse to really enjoy the drive



What's the fuse rating on it?


----------



## fredridge

iirc and based on the pics a few pages back it is 2x30.... 


my understanding is that these are basically 2 different power supplies inside and you can pull one fuse and the other side still works. Not sure that really has any bearing, but wanted to say it in case it does. 



t3sn4f2 said:


> What's the fuse rating on it?


----------



## t3sn4f2

fredridge said:


> iirc and based on the pics a few pages back it is 2x30....
> 
> 
> my understanding is that these are basically 2 different power supplies inside and you can pull one fuse and the other side still works. Not sure that really has any bearing, but wanted to say it in case it does.


Oh ok thanks


----------



## low

me want internals....

who the fawk do i have to pay to get shots of those??


----------



## fredridge

well you are going to have to pay and It'll cost you, but you can click here so you can get internals    



low said:


> me want internals....
> 
> who the fawk do i have to pay to get shots of those??


----------



## thehatedguy

There is probably a good reason why you haven't seen one with the top popped...



low said:


> me want internals....
> 
> who the fawk do i have to pay to get shots of those??


----------



## low

no worries..just the typical 'lets see whats under the hood' moment i guess..


----------



## Boostedrex

thehatedguy said:


> There is probably a good reason why you haven't seen one with the top popped...


And what would that reason be? Granted it is Patrick's business, but I just always thought it odd to try and keep pictures of the internals from being shown.


----------



## chad

Because the sound is being amplified by Pygmy Indians and the PC activists would whine.


----------



## fredridge

And really, the very last thing you want to do is add whine into your system 




chad said:


> Because the sound is being amplified by Pygmy Indians and the PC activists would whine.


----------



## chad

fredridge said:


> And really, the very last thing you want to do is add whine into your system


yep, or piss off the Pygmys! They are sneaky little suckers. 

Pop a final on a normal amp tha the factory installed smoke escapes and it no longer works, pop the top on a Zuki and the Pygmies escape and you are left with a 400 dollar former pygmy playground


----------



## legend94

does it void the warranty or something? 
i may buy one just to post internals on here


----------



## fredridge

yes it does, there is a sticker on the back that says if it is tampered with it will void warranty and will not service



legend94 said:


> does it void the warranty or something?
> i may buy one just to post internals on here


----------



## thehatedguy

I'm sure if something happened, you could get the amp fixed somewhere else...I'm sure he isn't doing anything new or magical inside there unless there are fish and chips inside.


----------



## dodgerblue

legend94 said:


> does it void the warranty or something?
> i may buy one just to post internals on here


justin ,save your cash and treat yourself to 10 oriental massages !!! youll feel much better knowing your getting !!


----------



## Lanson

I think we all need to remember that things happen in this industry that shouldn't, and to me THAT is why the so-bitched-about internals request shouldn't be pursued. The nice guy at Stryke (John is it?) was explaining in an earlier post how a speaker design house ripped off what would be some amazing patents, and it cost him dearly. Essentially, its the same thing that could happen here. Copy-cats galore. So, why make it easier for those copy-cats? If they want to copy it, they'll at least have to buy one, because I'm not going to disrespect the request of the amp builder. 

There are no pigmys (though it was a funny gesture), its just a board design that maximizes simplicity and functionality in a dual power supply (well, dual everything, really), clean design. The amp isn't smoke and mirrors, but it is unique and original. Its also very good at what it does.

Just like decompiling code in a program that is closed-source is considered illegal, and violates the end-user license agreement, so to is the nature of this amp's sticker that must be removed to open the amp. You CAN open it, but you are violating your warranty by doing so. The amp is conservatively set on all the adjustable pots inside, and tinkerers could easily fry the thing if they try to pull a "Home Improvement*" modification to add more power. One way to assure that this doesn't cost Zuki Audio money is to void the warranty by opening the case. It isn't anything more complicated then that, and the issue of copy-cats.

*I was referring to the sit-com tv show, Home Improvement, where Tim Allen tries to add power to all of his tools and cars, and they often blow up*



Lots and lots of rebuttals, flames, whatever you want to call them have been directed at this very simple issue, but in the end, its the choice of the owner, and little will change that.


----------



## legend94

fourthmeal said:


> I think we all need to remember that things happen in this industry that shouldn't, and to me THAT is why the so-bitched-about internals request shouldn't be pursued. The nice guy at Stryke (John is it?) was explaining in an earlier post how a speaker design house ripped off what would be some amazing patents, and it cost him dearly. Essentially, its the same thing that could happen here. Copy-cats galore. So, why make it easier for those copy-cats? If they want to copy it, they'll at least have to buy one, because I'm not going to disrespect the request of the amp builder.
> 
> There are no pigmys (though it was a funny gesture), its just a board design that maximizes simplicity and functionality in a dual power supply (well, dual everything, really), clean design. The amp isn't smoke and mirrors, but it is unique and original. Its also very good at what it does.
> 
> Just like decompiling code in a program that is closed-source is considered illegal, and violates the end-user license agreement, so to is the nature of this amp's sticker that must be removed to open the amp. You CAN open it, but you are violating your warranty by doing so. The amp is conservatively set on all the adjustable pots inside, and tinkerers could easily fry the thing if they try to pull a "Home Improvement*" modification to add more power. One way to assure that this doesn't cost Zuki Audio money is to void the warranty by opening the case. It isn't anything more complicated then that, and the issue of copy-cats.
> 
> *I was referring to the sit-com tv show, Home Improvement, where Tim Allen tries to add power to all of his tools and cars, and they often blow up*
> 
> 
> 
> Lots and lots of rebuttals, flames, whatever you want to call them have been directed at this very simple issue, but in the end, its the choice of the owner, and little will change that.


i will spend my money on something else


----------



## squeak9798

Honestly these amps would interest me if it wasn't for the faith-based information regarding them.

It sounds more like an evangelical telethon than a real discussion of the amplifier.........

"Just call the number on your screen and send your donation to The Lord and he shall justly and greatly reward you!"


I'm not much for religion, personally.


----------



## Lanson

squeak9798 said:


> Honestly these amps would interest me if it wasn't for the faith-based information regarding them.
> 
> It sounds more like an evangelical telethon than a real discussion of the amplifier.........
> 
> "Just call the number on your screen and send your donation to The Lord and he shall justly and greatly reward you!"
> 
> 
> I'm not much for religion, personally.


Neither am I, and I think this statement is completely off-base. 

This isn't an issue of faith or snake oil. Its a unique design that incorporates many things a big company would like to copy. Nothing more then that. I'm through trying to defend the issue, basically they sound great, and are rugged.


----------



## Dan

I'm confused. Why doesn't Patrick just patent his design, if it is a patentable design? Seem like a much better way to protect your intellectual property rather than voiding warantees if you break the sticker seal.


----------



## Guest

fourthmeal said:


> I think we all need to remember that things happen in this industry that shouldn't, and to me THAT is why the so-bitched-about internals request shouldn't be pursued. The nice guy at Stryke (John is it?) was explaining in an earlier post how a speaker design house ripped off what would be some amazing patents, and it cost him dearly. Essentially, its the same thing that could happen here. Copy-cats galore. So, why make it easier for those copy-cats? If they want to copy it, they'll at least have to buy one, because I'm not going to disrespect the request of the amp builder.
> 
> There are no pigmys (though it was a funny gesture), its just a board design that maximizes simplicity and functionality in a dual power supply (well, dual everything, really), clean design. The amp isn't smoke and mirrors, but it is unique and original. Its also very good at what it does.
> 
> Just like decompiling code in a program that is closed-source is considered illegal, and violates the end-user license agreement, so to is the nature of this amp's sticker that must be removed to open the amp. You CAN open it, but you are violating your warranty by doing so. The amp is conservatively set on all the adjustable pots inside, and tinkerers could easily fry the thing if they try to pull a "Home Improvement*" modification to add more power. One way to assure that this doesn't cost Zuki Audio money is to void the warranty by opening the case. It isn't anything more complicated then that, and the issue of copy-cats.
> 
> *I was referring to the sit-com tv show, Home Improvement, where Tim Allen tries to add power to all of his tools and cars, and they often blow up*
> 
> 
> 
> Lots and lots of rebuttals, flames, whatever you want to call them have been directed at this very simple issue, but in the end, its the choice of the owner, and little will change that.


just wanted to preserve this post for posterity. It may prove to be ... illuminating


----------



## chad

werewolf said:


> just wanted to preserve this post for posterity. It may prove to be ... illuminating


I think it's "illuminating" as to it was expressed as to how the internal pots are set "conservatively" 


I had no idea bias could be set conservatively on a SS amp..... it's right or wrong IMHO. 

Turning them will not cause the amp to make anything more but smoke eventually.


----------



## Lanson

chad said:


> I think it's "illuminating" as to it was expressed as to how the internal pots are set "conservatively"
> 
> 
> I had no idea bias could be set conservatively on a SS amp..... it's right or wrong IMHO.
> 
> Turning them will not cause the amp to make anything more but smoke eventually.


Sorry Chad, I'm going by the very little knowledge that I know about SS amps. You may be correct, all I know is that they are adjustable, but aren't to be adjusted. You da man on amps, so its futile for me to try to explain it, you already know what I mean. 

Regarding patents, I won't speak for patrick at all, because I haven't seen him in a while, but I do know from my father's point of view, that a Patent takes a LOOOOONG time to acquire, and can cost quite a bit just to just do a patent search, and all that. My father is 14 grand in it just for a simple invention he made, and has yet to get anywhere near a patent (despite his dilligent efforts.) I think I'd probably get the rights myself before I released the design, but then again, its not my design.


----------



## chad

Put a drop of glue on the bias pots that's some what removable and of a color that NOBODY can get ahold of  Solves the tweako issues 

OTOH a pic on the internet is not going to do squat for someone wanting to copy an amp other than ooh and ahhh factor. I have a hard time reading color codes and part numbers of components even of hi-res photo's shot in macro mode for people looking for help. 

If someone really wanted to rip him off and thjought that they could make money doing it then it's worth a $400 investment to them.

I could care less, I've seen a lot of very reliable, powerful amplifiers out there with some pretty damn ugly internals.... Uglier tha Pigmy Indians! 

If it weren't brought up it would not be a big deal. Lets face it people are just finger pointing because of the principle, unless they ate THAT hooked on amp internal porn, and if that's the case I recommend checking ampguts often, there are tons ont here  and if you are one of these amp porn people, you are sick SOB's  

Nobody has asked for pics yet of my headunit  But that DOES remind me, I DO have internal shots of the Matrix... and I have no idea where they are at 

Chad


----------



## low

*raises hand*

i am an addict of amp porn. i have a problem.

other amp porn addicts, please raise your hand


----------



## Lanson

chad said:


> Put a drop of glue on the bias pots that's some what removable and of a color that NOBODY can get ahold of  Solves the tweako issues
> 
> OTOH a pic on the internet is not going to do squat for someone wanting to copy an amp other than ooh and ahhh factor. I have a hard time reading color codes and part numbers of components even of hi-res photo's shot in macro mode for people looking for help.
> 
> If someone really wanted to rip him off and thjought that they could make money doing it then it's worth a $400 investment to them.
> 
> I could care less, I've seen a lot of very reliable, powerful amplifiers out there with some pretty damn ugly internals.... Uglier tha Pigmy Indians!
> 
> If it weren't brought up it would not be a big deal. Lets face it people are just finger pointing because of the principle, unless they ate THAT hooked on amp internal porn, and if that's the case I recommend checking ampguts often, there are tons ont here  and if you are one of these amp porn people, you are sick SOB's
> 
> Nobody has asked for pics yet of my headunit  But that DOES remind me, I DO have internal shots of the Matrix... and I have no idea where they are at
> 
> Chad


Well said, as usual. I do believe that the glue thing was INTENDED, but never occured. I'll never know for sure, but I do know a lot of things didn't go as planned. Kind of like how a sub builder will mess something up, and yet still expect you to own up to the cost of production. 

Pm'd ya, btw.


----------



## dodgerblue

fourthmeal said:


> Well said, as usual. I do believe that the glue thing was INTENDED, but never occured. I'll never know for sure, but I do know a lot of things didn't go as planned. Kind of like how a sub builder will mess something up, and yet still expect you to own up to the cost of production.
> 
> Pm'd ya, btw.


curious how the word SUB BUILDER sheds any light on zuki internals ?


----------



## Lanson

dodgerblue said:


> curious how the word SUB BUILDER sheds any light on zuki internals ?


Simply because the buildhouse for the Zuki amp didn't exactly conform to Patrick's design request (for instance, there are fuses, and there wasn't supposed to be any, to avoid a bottleneck in current draw.) Sub builder houses do exactly the same thing, all the time. They make a small design error and expect the client to accept the mistake anyway.

Does that make sense?


----------



## MIAaron

Man, I must have misinterpreted zuki's thread on ECA. I thought the zuki amps were existing amps internals in a different heatsink? Is this not the case?


----------



## Lanson

I'd highly doubt that. I'm unsure of ECA, since I mainly stick with the DIY'ers here. However, I consider the amp unique because it was built by testing, listening, changing, listening, changing some more, listening...etc. Very little else. I am NOT saying I agree with this (because I do tend to think amps sound very similar, within reason), but the results are good. It is unique, and doesn't really follow traditional bean-counter approaches. This is only my opinion, YMMV.


----------



## MIAaron

Oh, I guess I got the wrong impression from his ECA post. Nevermind then, I'm way off.


----------



## dodgerblue

fourthmeal said:


> Simply because the buildhouse for the Zuki amp didn't exactly conform to Patrick's design request (for instance, there are fuses, and there wasn't supposed to be any, to avoid a bottleneck in current draw.) Sub builder houses do exactly the same thing, all the time. They make a small design error and expect the client to accept the mistake anyway.
> 
> Does that make sense?


super-duper !
just poking at you fourth , it sounded like you had a personal experience with the sub builder example - so i used some sarcasm tactics to possibly extract the full story !!


----------



## Lanson

dodgerblue said:


> super-duper !
> just poking at you fourth , it sounded like you had a personal experience with the sub builder example - so i used some sarcasm tactics to possibly extract the full story !!


Not a problem at all. I haven't personally dealt with said problem, but I have heard of it happening many, many times. I'm a pretty open person to talk to on just about everything, especially car audio. I have no problem w/ it.


----------



## chadillac3

thehatedguy said:


> I'm sure if something happened, you could get the amp fixed somewhere else...I'm sure he isn't doing anything new or magical inside there unless there are fish and chips inside.


Agreed. The only way I see the need to protect internal photos would be one of a couple things:

1. It's a ripoff of another design. Like maybe these were eerily similar to a British amp manufacturer's designs.

2. There isn't much to look at and the seller wants the whole black magic theory to come into play.

3. It's a design anyone can buy (Ubuy for example) and doesn't want everyone to know that they can buy the same design from Clarion for 25% less.

I've emailed Patrick a few times back and forth, and he seems like a helpful guy, but I just don't buy the whole copycat thing. The simple fact of the matter is that a few hundred dollars to buy an amp is ABSOLUTELY NEGLIBLE to a real company like Harmon, RF, JL, etc. If these amps were that special, they could buy 10 and test them all. 

Total load of ****, and we all know it.


----------



## squeak9798

fourthmeal said:


> Neither am I, and I think this statement is completely off-base.
> 
> This isn't an issue of faith or snake oil.


Just to clarify;

I didn't mean he was selling snake oil and pixie dust.

But given the extreme lack of any real detail about the amplifier.....the only thing the interested public has to go off of is a couple of internet reviews. We are, in essence, taking a leap of faith that the amplifier will suit our needs. Likewise I think most of the statements about the amplifier thus far could be easily characterized by the following;

"The amp was designed to sound good and that's what it does. That's about all the information you really need. If you want to know more, buy it and find out for yourself. You won't be disappointed."

Hence my previous statement.....

Accurate specs would help inform the consumer of what it actually is that they are purchasing. As of right now, with the limited information, I wouldn't feel comfortable even mentioning it to someone else as a potential option. 

And as for the internal pics.....I think we all know that there is information that can not be extracted from pics alone. But many manufacturer's do show pics of internals in product brochures...and it's also nice to know that it doesn't look like this inside;










To tell you the truth...I'm half tempted to buy one just to crack it open & send it off for testing. Sort of how Area 51 became infamous simply because the government tried so hard to keep it a secret.......Won't matter much if that voids the warranty as I'd simply turn around and sell it as "used" anyways  Really I don't think I'd spend the money just to test it....but the thought briefly crossed my mind......


----------



## Lanson

the copycat concept was mine, not anybody else's. So buy it or not, it is only my opinion. Sure, a company could buy 10 and reverse engineer them, but they could also be sued for that. Display it on the web, and its different. Its ok if my line of thinking isn't the same as yours. In the end, my opinion of the issue is only mine, and I can't expect people to agree with me completely.

Buying one would be an option of yours, if you chose to do so, then I'd say its your right to put a pic on the web. Enjoy. Don't forget to hook it up and listen to it, too.


----------



## Guest

chadillac3 said:


> Agreed. The only way I see the need to protect internal photos would be one of a couple things:
> 
> 1. It's a ripoff of another design. Like maybe these were eerily similar to a British amp manufacturer's designs.
> 
> 2. There isn't much to look at and the seller wants the whole black magic theory to come into play.
> 
> 3. It's a design anyone can buy (Ubuy for example) and doesn't want everyone to know that they can buy the same design from Clarion for 25% less.
> 
> I've emailed Patrick a few times back and forth, and he seems like a helpful guy, but I just don't buy the whole copycat thing. The simple fact of the matter is that a few hundred dollars to buy an amp is ABSOLUTELY NEGLIBLE to a real company like Harmon, RF, JL, etc. If these amps were that special, they could buy 10 and test them all.
> 
> Total load of ****, and we all know it.


bingo. Either the person selling is protecting something, or is hiding something. Time will tell ...


----------



## dingaling

are there any solid #'s on this amp yet from an independent source?


----------



## thehatedguy

Both?

His ass and the circuit boards...

It may be nothing...but something is pretty fishy to me about the whole deal. I thought people would be showing off a new amp like a proud papa and a new born.

I know if I designed and built amps, that ***** would be plastered all over the place for everyone to see. Go to DIYAudio and Audio Asylum an check out some of the stuff being built over there...I mean Nelson Pass shows everyone pretty much everything.

The problem with designing and building car amps (IMO) is not the amp or the preamp, but that damned switching mode power supply. You get a good power supply down and you just opened up a whole new world.



werewolf said:


> bingo. Either the person selling is protecting something, or is hiding something. Time will tell ...


----------



## dual700

When are we going to see Werewolf Audio amp? I'll do a group buy


----------



## 300Z

dual700 said:


> When are we going to see Werewolf Audio amp? I'll do a group buy


No kidding...


----------



## Oliver

Squeak9798,

Any thoughts on this one? http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Koac_V3/inside1.jpg


----------



## chadillac3

fourthmeal said:


> Sure, a company could buy 10 and reverse engineer them, but they could also be sued for that.


Ahh, so the amp's design has been patented then????


----------



## chad

dual700 said:


> When are we going to see Werewolf Audio amp? I'll do a group buy


That's a kickass name! He's already set!


----------



## fredridge

I love that KOAC, 400 watts FTW- I am going to run one of those to my pyramid 15" sub in a 4th order bandpass and another to my Pyle 4way 6x9 front stage (2 sets up front) all off my Avic Z1 so I know where I am going  



Hic said:


> Squeak9798,
> 
> Any thoughts on this one? http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Koac_V3/inside1.jpg


----------



## Lanson

chadillac3 said:


> Ahh, so the amp's design has been patented then????


 
No. I just said that patents are hard to get. Or did you choose to selectively quote me out of context? I've already told you, this is only my opinion. I am not speaking for the amp maker.


----------



## chadillac3

Are you not a rep? Or were at one time?


----------



## Lanson

correct, I stepped away from that. I still think its a good product, but I'm not affiliated any longer.


----------



## low

Hic said:


> Squeak9798,
> 
> Any thoughts on this one? http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Koac_V3/inside1.jpg


keepin it simple ftw!


----------



## Guest

dual700 said:


> When are we going to see Werewolf Audio amp? I'll do a group buy


that's funny!

See, the thing is this. Yes, I am an electrical engineer (or at least, used to be ). I've designed more analog and digital circuitry than i can remember. But what could i possibly add to the science, or even art, of audio power amp design? Is there something left to be done, in our search for cost-effective, reliable, power amplification of an audio signal?


----------



## dual700

werewolf said:


> that's funny!
> 
> See, the thing is this. Yes, I am an electrical engineer (or at least, used to be ). I've designed more analog and digital circuitry than i can remember. But what could i possibly add to the science, or even art, of audio power amp design? Is there something left to be done, in our search for cost-effective, reliable, power amplification of an audio signal?


We need:
A big 6 channels that is staggered for full active set up for DIYMA community. 
1. Affordable
2. Built is great (we know it will)
3. Quality parts
4. Looks good
5. Easy control knobs access.
6. Affordable.
7. Sounds guuuuud. BB, Wifa, Op-amps, you name it, lol
8. Did I say affordable?  
9. Sexay guts...

2 X 50 + 2 X 150 + 2 X 250 will be great.

Now, where do I send $$$ to?  

I got the name for the amp.
*Werewolf Audio Active 6.*


----------



## fredridge

werewolf said:


> that's funny!
> *Is there something left to be done, in our search for cost-effective, reliable, power amplification of an audio signal?*


A really cool Logo  

I have an image in my head of a movie... I think it is looking up at the wolf on a small hill with the moon in the background... I think it was Harry potter


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## fredridge

How about a 7th for a sub 



dual700 said:


> We need:
> A big 6 channels that is staggered for full active set up for DIYMA community.
> 1. Affordable
> 2. Built is great (we know it will)
> 3. Quality parts
> 4. Looks good
> 5. Easy control knobs access.
> 6. Affordable.
> 7. Sounds guuuuud. BB, Wifa, Op-amps, you name it, lol
> 8. Did I say affordable?
> 9. Sexay guts...
> 
> 2 X 50 + 2 X 150 + 2 X 250 will be great.
> 
> Now, where do I send $$$ to?
> 
> I got the name for the amp.
> Werewolf Audio Active 6.


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## dual700

fredridge said:


> How about a 7th for a sub


Great minds think alike


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## Guest

well thanks for the vote of confidence guys 

The other thing is ... i really don't need the money, from yet another enterprise!

But ... there are several pretty knowledgeable (sp?) engineers on this board. Maybe you guys should start another thread, about a request for a DIYMA-engineered power amp


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## Sinfoni_USA

dual700 said:


> We need:
> A big 6 channels that is staggered for full active set up for DIYMA community.
> 1. Affordable
> 2. Built is great (we know it will)
> 3. Quality parts
> 4. Looks good
> 5. Easy control knobs access.
> 6. Affordable.
> 7. Sounds guuuuud. BB, Wifa, Op-amps, you name it, lol
> 8. Did I say affordable?
> 9. Sexay guts...
> 
> 2 X 50 + 2 X 150 + 2 X 250 will be great.
> 
> Now, where do I send $$$ to?
> 
> I got the name for the amp.
> *Werewolf Audio Active 6.*


Hummm.... I like....

Seriously, this would be a wonderful amplifier... any manufactures listening...? No...? No different than the previous 30 years...

You know, there is only one manufacturer that I can think of that has built anything like this... LRX5.1k....
J


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## low

id definitely put my money in for a werewolf amp. sexy guts i know it will have. cmon mr. wolf, show 'em how its done!!


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## low

werewolf said:


> well thanks for the vote of confidence guys
> 
> The other thing is ... i really don't need the money, from yet another enterprise!
> 
> But ... there are several pretty knowledgeable (sp?) engineers on this board. Maybe you guys should start another thread, about a request for a DIYMA-engineered power amp


as long as youre 101% behind it all!!

from design to finish!


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## fredridge

and since he doesn't need the money we could share it between all the members who currently have more than 500 posts  



low said:


> as long as youre 101% behind it all!!
> 
> from design to finish!


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## Sinfoni_USA

I like the idea of Wolfie designing a custom amplifier...

Come on Werewolf... "You can do it !"

J


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## Guest

alright dudes ... enuf  but thanks.

info for another thread ... but remember, lots of smart cookies in these parts ...


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## Sinfoni_USA

Seriously... 

I think Werewolf has really hit on something... do we have the "collective" resources to design and manufacture "our" ideal amplifier ?

...Talk amongst yourselves....

J


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## chad

Tn_Audiophile said:


> Seriously...
> 
> I think Werewolf has really hit on something... do we have the "collective" resources to design and manufacture "our" ideal amplifier ?
> 
> ...Talk amongst yourselves....
> 
> J


So what? 89grand can blow a few up?


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## Sinfoni_USA

We've all been there before...

:blush:


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## chad

I'm pulling that one out whenever needed. Who ever did it in the ugly mug thread got me going


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## Sinfoni_USA

So Chad... you think this little ole forum has the technical members to do this ?


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## chad

Tn_Audiophile said:


> So Chad... you think this little ole forum has the technical members to do this ?


Do we have the members? Sure, do the members have the time and resources to get a completed product? Looks grim IMHO.

But I cast a vote for a modular design


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## Sinfoni_USA

I like the idea of a modular design... Simpler to design...

Maybe design them in a manner that a cover could be used to look like one amplifier...

J


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## chad

Tn_Audiophile said:


> I like the idea of a modular design... Simpler to design...
> 
> Maybe design them in a manner that a cover could be used to look like one amplifier...
> 
> J


Absolutely! I was thinking of a "frame" that you would pop the top off of like an Xtant, Different frame sizes are availible for different options. Chose your modules, then chose your PS accordingly.


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## Sinfoni_USA

BINGO !

Similar to the OLD Altec Lansing mobile amps...


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## chad

Tn_Audiophile said:


> BINGO !
> 
> Similar to the OLD Altec Lansing mobile amps...


Like real professional mixing consoles  

Put 'em where you want 'em.

Since it's all on a bus you could future proof it by planning your analog bus for DSP


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## Sinfoni_USA

I like your thinking...


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## dual700

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=159503#post159503


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## Sinfoni_USA

Come one everyone.... over to General Audio Forum.....


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## Oliver

Zuki,

Congratulations on doing something that at the very least is fraught filled and daunting to undertake!!


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## Oliver

.


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## zukiaudio

i am writing into this thread to clear up any confusion anyone might have about my (scratch and dent buy button) on my website.

the S&D button allows me to sell things a buyer and i discuss and agree on ahead of time. 
and still allows me to meet the federal patriot act guidelines for tracking internet credit card purchases by the govt. to make sure i am not funding terrorism.

i am not sure how the information was misinterpreted.
but someone thought it meant you can buy any zuki amplifier for 50.00 shipped. 

and when i inquired where the buyer read this. 
they directed me to this forum thread.



i am very sorry for any inconvenience this has caused anyone on this forum.

thank you 

and once again i am very sorry if this caused you any harm .


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## Pseudonym

Bumping this thread to ask if anyone knows what the "in/out" button between the lp filter and bass eq knobs does.


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## Boostedrex

Pseudonym said:


> Bumping this thread to ask if anyone knows what the "in/out" button between the lp filter and bass eq knobs does.


It will select between LP and HP for the amp.


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## Pseudonym

Awesome thanks.


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## Organics12

Lanson said:


> It is not putting out 5W of power. Thats what it is rated for. It is up to Patrick to rate the amp the way he wants. I'm sure its less about what it can do and more about what it sounds like, for him. He built it according to what it sounded like, entirely. If it took 4000 watts of power to do what he wanted, then ok. But, if it took only 5 to 10W of power, then great. In the end, it gets loud (I'm talking VERY loud, like "ow ow ow ow" loud), and it plays clean and clear.
> 
> I suggested running efficient equipment because with the amp, it isn't a 150W per channel machine, but instead it can run low impedances. It can easily run 2ohm bridged.
> 
> Fairly efficient to me means something like Seas 4 ohm, Canton, Aura, Altec, JBL, etc. Something that responds to one watt very well, like in the 91-95dB @ 1 meter, 1 watt range.
> 
> I'd also recommend a line driver, or a head unit that puts out near 5 volts. It really seems to come alive then.
> 
> For Patrick (Zuki), I'm not sure what his intentions are, or what he wants to do with the business. Its none of my business to know, really. I do know he gave me the amp to use in my car because he wanted feedback (good and bad) on what it can do, and how it sounds. And thats what it boils down to, really. It sounds great, and has no problem pushing speakers fairly hard. What you do from there is up to you.


I know this is a few years off but I’m running two of them in my car right now with xetec gravity mids and a/d/s px tweeters off the 4 v1 and gain is at 5v(min). Running 2 xtants stereo 4 ohm off the eleets 2 V2 and it’s endless power. I’m talking endless those xtants just hit lower and lower the more volume I give.


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