# Open Survey



## envisionelec

A couple days ago I posted a survey about car amplifier choices. Because of its length, I posted an offsite survey. It was deleted without warning and I received a note from a "moderator". Despite having read the rules and searching, I found nothing that disallows them. I was told that they were no longer allowed because one person a couple years ago refused to show the results. 

I planned to show the results. 

I have been refused an explanation.


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## legend94

Post it up here! 

It can't get longer than a watt sounding the same thread


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## schmiddr2

When I read your first thread I thought about whether or not you will post the results. Why did you not address this in that thread?

Also, if the survey was to help determine what customers want, it could be advantageous to keep the results under wraps. Just what i would be thinking if it was me.

It does not matter if a previous survey happened to go awry, the only issue is to make it clear up front that the results are being derived from this community and therefore have to be shared with this community.


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## envisionelec

schmiddr2 said:


> When I read your first thread I thought about whether or not you will post the results. Why did you not address this in that thread?
> 
> Also, if the survey was to help determine what customers want, it could be advantageous to keep the results under wraps. Just what i would be thinking if it was me.
> 
> It does not matter if a previous survey happened to go awry, the only issue is to make it clear up front that the results are being derived from this community and therefore have to be shared with this community.


I actually didn't even think about revealing the results. Yes I want to keep some things under wraps when it comes to what I do with the information, but I don't see the competitive advantage to keep people from seeing the results. 

I'm all about being transparent. I'll work on the stats and post again.


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## legend94

Are you building a new brand of amps?


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## Victor_inox

legend94 said:


> Are you building a new brand of amps?


THat`s how it sounds like to me as well.


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## legend94

I'll start of with a few things I would love.

No crossovers.

Separate gain controlls for each channel.


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## REGULARCAB

legend94 said:


> I'll start of with a few things I would love.
> 
> No crossovers.
> 
> Separate gain controlls for each channel.


I will add a simple classy look and don't make me take off a bunch of panels or end caps to get things installed, or mess with gains

decent power and speaker connections (no plugs, no soft set screws)

solid mounting feet


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## Negolien

Must be building a panty dropper :snacks:


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## Darth SQ

Subscribed.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## WestCo

I agree the simpler the better. Separate gains, and tube based preamp section.


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## legend94

WestCo said:


> I agree the simpler the better. Separate gains, and tube based preamp section.


Simple but no tube preamp.

Buy one of victors


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## Victor_inox

legend94 said:


> Simple but no tube preamp.
> 
> Buy one of victors


Thanks Justin. one day I`ll release hybrid with tube preamp build in and 150/200W ch solid state section. gain on every ch and nothing else, well maybe speakers and thermal protection circuits. 
whole idea in the beginning was to make a separate unit and use it with whatever amp customer have at the time.


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## cajunner

If the sort of information that can be gleaned from picking the brains of this site's dutiful brethren, is in any way valuable to anyone, now, in the future, or even as a hypothetical I imagine the feeling that a need to control the flow of such information becomes a "thing."

Who profits from data mining, free surveys are great and nobody is actually spending anything to give the information a value, but in the aggregate the results of a survey can be construed as having worth, and a tax can be put on that worth...


it may be possible to simply highlight a link, that goes to an off-site survey and just trick people to going there with some useful directed posts or entice them with some kind of rainbow's end sort of thing, maybe a 50% off on first run amps, once the new venture is under way...

sort of a survey kick starter, and if you should want to get some dollars you could integrate the survey into a kickstarter fund, I don't believe there's any rules against that...

that would maybe fly in the interest of a few benefactors who have the bucks and want the novelty, and in the small donations pile, you have the rest of us cheap buggers who just want 50% off of something vouched as cool...

yeah, take it the step past survey mode and step into the seer-sucker suit and the shades, future's bright...


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## envisionelec

I am not at all opposed to paying people for their time; I would pay the site admin for the bandwidth because, ultimately, I am getting valuable marketing information that will go into my planning. Having the rules stated plainly would have given me the chance to act appropriately. I'm always willing to play by the rules.

So on the question of "is it a new amp?" Yes. I am building a couple lines of amplifiers. One is a basic amplifier with no processing, gain knobs per channel and NO onboard processing. No crossovers, modules, no bass knob or boost. Nothing. In and out. With gain. And with a manual that covers a huge range of topics, not just a pamphlet with a half dozen pages. The schematics will be included with the amp! You can fix your own amplifier, if you're so inclined! Nobody does this anymore. Then again, we're just the nobody you want! 

The second line will be a Hybrid-type Class D design that I can't discuss at all. It's proprietary and is one of two secret sauces that will make up the product line.

Finally there is a top-secret DSP. I can only say that it will finally obsolete the in-dash headunit and OEM integration will take on a whole new form. 

All of our products will be built in the USA. Not just assembled, but MADE. I'm located near Dayton Ohio and we have every type of electronics and hardware supplier within a 10 mile radius. Within 30 miles, we have two aluminum extrusion manufacturers. There are a huge number of extraordinarily talented individuals in this area and I have great connections. 

This amplifiers will not look homemade in any sense of the word. Nor will they be tacky. They will be exceptionally transparent and absolutely kick butt. They will perform and outperform their ratings. They will have vanishingly low noise and the highest possible stereo separation (very low crosstalk). They will reveal details in music as well as a high end home audio amplifier. And they will be as beautiful as I can design them.


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## pocket5s

Bravo on a pure, simple amplifier.


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## Victor_inox

can`t wait


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## Angrywhopper

I like what you're saying.


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## bbfoto

Interested and subscribed. Looking forward to see what you come up with.

:snacks:


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## Hoptologist

In 4 the secret sauce


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## mercury02

I wish you well. Everyone wants a US amp but at Chinese prices will be your problem.
Look at US made amps now
Linear power retail range $1,000 too $2500
Tru Tech expensive retail from $1000 to $7000
Arc no longer make SE US made amps I believe
Zapco stop making US Made amps 3yrs ago
Zed small builder do not really see equipment
Butler amps getting out of car audio looks like.
You will need the amp have a lot of features and look sexy like Italian amps.
Mosconi Audison, Sinfoni are expensive also Brax from Germany are selling
better then US made amps and you need to figure this out and why this is.
that's the biq??? of the day can compete with them on looks features and
exoticness


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## envisionelec

mercury02 said:


> I wish you well. Everyone wants a US amp but at Chinese prices will be your problem.
> 
> You will need the amp have a lot of features and look sexy like Italian amps.
> Mosconi Audison, Sinfoni are expensive also Brax from Germany are selling
> better then US made amps and you need to figure this out and why this is.
> that's the biq??? of the day can compete with them on looks features and
> exoticness


That's one way to look at it. But most amps have lots of features that many people don't need because DSP is so prevalent in most headunits. I still have a hard time finding anything that doesn't have built in processing (that I am paying for but don't need) in anything under $1000. I can't discuss specific pricing but our products won't be starting at $1000. That's simply ridiculous. 

People buy because they like what a brand offers or what other people recommend, for the most part. What you don't see are what people aren't buying because they don't have the choice. That's where we come in. 

I can tell you why these brands sell well: careful attention is paid to the design. The amplifiers I've seen that are "US" made are often quite...homely. The attention to detail isn't there. They may tout performance, but they don't look like they will perform to the average person. One of the biggest things people like to do is take the cover off and boast about the design. The design should look like someone took the time to make it look good. It shouldn't have features that looked rushed or thrown together. It must have a natural flow that integrates well with the automobile. After all, the love affair with the automobile extends to the audio system and it should be a good fit.


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## Angrywhopper

Envisionelec,
Have you gone to all the local shops in your area? Have you talked to other shop owners? Has there been any sort of conversation between you and RETAIL employees/managers/owners?

If the answer is yes to the questions above, have any of them allowed you to observe. A day at the shop? A week at the shop? Actually seeing whose walking through the door and how the conversations play out?

Reason I ask is because I feel there is a huge disconnect between manufacturers, reps, and the B&M retail operation.


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## subwoofery

envisionelec said:


> That's one way to look at it. But most amps have lots of features that many people don't need because DSP is so prevalent in most headunits. I still have a hard time finding anything that doesn't have built in processing (that I am paying for but don't need) in anything under $1000. I can't discuss specific pricing but our products won't be starting at $1000. That's simply ridiculous.
> 
> People buy because they like what a brand offers or what other people recommend, for the most part. What you don't see are what people aren't buying because they don't have the choice. That's where we come in.
> 
> I can tell you why these brands sell well: careful attention is paid to the design. The amplifiers I've seen that are "US" made are often quite...homely. The attention to detail isn't there. They may tout performance, but they don't look like they will perform to the average person. One of the biggest things people like to do is take the cover off and boast about the design. The design should look like someone took the time to make it look good. It shouldn't have features that looked rushed or thrown together. It must have a natural flow that integrates well with the automobile. After all, the love affair with the automobile extends to the audio system and it should be a good fit.


Either an amp without any type of processing (amp with a gain knob - DONE) or an amp with full on processing (aka Zapco DC series). 

I have yet to see a class D amp with full on processing. Something to ponder on  

Kelvin


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## mercury02

The next question is if you offer your equipment too cheap
will your SQ guys buy it or flee from it thinking its not well made.
Example if Ferrari came out with a $15000.00 sports car for the masses
what would happen to them it loose all of its appeal and not be exotic anymore
so you need to do your Juggling act well with price and design and features.


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## mercury02

Alto Mobile tried the full range class D with DSP Unit built in did not do well
but we have newer electronics now. I know RE in middle of working on this
with a twist to it hopefully 2015 it will be here.
I think the only reason US made amps look homely is to expensive to make heat sinks in US so they grab off the shelf heat sinks that will work.


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## envisionelec

Angrywhopper said:


> Envisionelec,
> Have you gone to all the local shops in your area? Have you talked to other shop owners? Has there been any sort of conversation between you and RETAIL employees/managers/owners?
> 
> If the answer is yes to the questions above, have any of them allowed you to observe. A day at the shop? A week at the shop? Actually seeing whose walking through the door and how the conversations play out?
> 
> Reason I ask is because I feel there is a huge disconnect between manufacturers, reps, and the B&M retail operation.


Could you elaborate your position on this?


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## envisionelec

mercury02 said:


> The next question is if you offer your equipment too cheap
> will your SQ guys buy it or flee from it thinking its not well made.
> Example if Ferrari came out with a $15000.00 sports car for the masses
> what would happen to them it loose all of its appeal and not be exotic anymore
> so you need to do your Juggling act well with price and design and features.


I didn't say that they would be cheap. They just won't start at $1000. An outside firm will handle how the products are marketed. That's not my forte at all.


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## envisionelec

mercury02 said:


> Alto Mobile tried the full range class D with DSP Unit built in did not do well
> but we have newer electronics now. I know RE in middle of working on this
> with a twist to it hopefully 2015 it will be here.
> I think the only reason US made amps look homely is to expensive to make heat sinks in US so they grab off the shelf heat sinks that will work.


The key is "built in DSP". That's inflexible and costly. It doesn't make good business sense to lock down the DSP with one type or brand of amp. Also, Altomobile stuff is hideous, IMO.


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## thehatedguy

How about something with no crossover distortion? Something like Douglass Self's Blameless designs?

FUll range class D, with a tube pre, and built in DSP...that would be pretty schweet IMO. Though the world might implode using old school tubes as a pre with a class D power amp.


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## Victor_inox

thehatedguy said:


> How about something with no crossover distortion? Something like Douglass Self's Blameless designs?
> 
> FUll range class D, with a tube pre, and built in DSP...that would be pretty schweet IMO. Though the world might implode using old school tubes as a pre with a class D power amp.


impractical, expensive- no sales.


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## Darth SQ

Victor_inox said:


> impractical, expensive- no sales.


Yes but a wicked cool idea none-the-less. :thumbsup:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## envisionelec

I'll post the results soon. I'm quite literally packing up to move later this week. Busy wouldn't begin to describe my day. ?


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## subwoofery

Victor_inox said:


> impractical, expensive- no sales.


I'd buy it - actually, I'd buy 2 in a heatbeat  

Kelvin


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## Victor_inox

subwoofery said:


> I'd buy it - actually, I'd buy 2 in a heatbeat
> 
> Kelvin


You and I,and another 200 enthusiasts, is that enough to justify production cost?
Also what price you`d buy it for? 1000? 2000? Because you can be sure as hell it won`t be cheaper.
All in one solutions cost more and less flexible.
Would it be wise to spent thousands of man hours on development of such thing only to sell a few,
there is a huge hole between "it would be cool" and sending actual money for it. 
Limited run with pre order only option might be feasible though


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## subwoofery

Victor_inox said:


> You and I,and another 200 enthusiasts, is that enough to justify production cost?
> Also what price you`d buy it for? 1000? 2000? Because you can be sure as hell it won`t be cheaper.
> All in one solutions cost more and less flexible.
> Would it be wise to spent thousands of man hours on development of such thing only to sell a few,
> there is a huge hole between "it would be cool" and sending actual money for it.
> Limited run with pre order only option might be feasible though


If it cost less than my Milbert, then sure, I'd buy it @ that price  

Kelvin


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## Victor_inox

subwoofery said:


> If it cost less than my Milbert, then sure, I'd buy it @ that price
> 
> Kelvin


I hear what you saying. I doubt though that such device will be ever produced.
we can keep dreaming.


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## hot9dog

I wouldnt mind a "off the shelf extruded heat sink"...... just as long as its all black, blends in with most installs. Its the internals that would get the starring role .


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## Angrywhopper

envisionelec said:


> Could you elaborate your position on this?



I guess I should have asked first; are you planning on having your products in retail stores and eTailers or is it a very specialized product sold from your direct website?


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## bbfoto

Here is my input regarding the amplifiers:

1. Maximum Finished Thickness of 2" or less if at all possible.

2. Stackable design if at all possible. Of course, this would mean a Consistent Overall Footprint/Chassis Size for the entire lineup. Maybe some think this would be boring, but IMHO I can't tell you how nice & how much easier it is for shops, installers, and the DIY'er! This REALLY simplifies system design, layout, and installation! ...increased sales.

3. If not #2, then at least the same Thickness and Width for the entire lineup. Length could vary due to the # of channels and/or power output, but makes layout and installation more difficult. Obviously this reduces tooling & heat sink extrusion costs, but IMHO it's still not as desirable as #2. 

4. All connections, signal inputs/outputs/power and gain pots along one side or end. Although I realize that this may not always result in optimum amplifier performance through proper internal electrical paths/routing/layout/design. 

5. No funky shapes, curves, or unique areas or projections that stick out from the main body of the amp, including mounting points. Yes, I'm asking for a boring square or rectangular box with all flat surfaces!  This is the most efficient use of space and easiest to custom-mount (nest) and/or stack into virtually any location. Again, Installer-friendly = more sales.

6. IMO, Size Matters! SMALL, that is!  Over the last several years I've found it increasingly difficult to consider using anything other than the smaller Class D or similar high-efficiency amps, such as the JL Audio HD and Alpine PDX-F & -M amplifiers. The Power is there, the SQ is there, performance is proven. And IMO, the main benefit is that they will *easily fit under a seat*. If a particular amp is too large to fit under a seat, well that is a big disadvantage, and will exponentially reduce the amount of installs it will go into, hence reduced sales. If you are only targeting the boutique/SQ fanatic market, and are not concerned if the quanity of sales are low, by all means, create a beautiful, large amp lineup with big power. I admit, we all LOVE these amps! But I'm sure you already know that we at DIYMA (and all "hard-core" SQ/SQL enthusiasts) *maybe* make up just 10% of the consumer base. Honestly, how many of us can actually fit 3-4 Arc Audio SE-series or similar-sized amps into our installs, or are willing to give up that space?

7. Maybe offer 2 finishes?: Standard Brushed Aluminum, and Black Anodized Brushed Aluminum. Don't use any wacky or unique color schemes that will make it difficult to aesthetically integrate with OEM interiors. Customers obviously have the option to custom paint/finish the amps as they please. Side note: From an aesthetic viewpoint, I love the looks and design of the DLS A-series amps.


Regarding the DSP:

1. Minimum of 10 channels, preferably 13! 

2. 30-band Independent L/R PEQ for all channels.

3. 15° Phase Angle adjustment for all channels.

4. Minimum of 0.5dB EQ/level adjustment increments.

5. Minimum of 1cm Digital Delay/Time-Alignment increments. Preferably a bit smaller (crazy I know!)

6. 24-bit/96kHz Processing Resolution w/o the need to up-sample or down-sample if 24/96 input signal.

7. Single DIN Controller Interface similar to the Alpine RUX, in addition to Windows & Mac control via USB & Bluetooth. Or at least an installer-friendly Remote with overall System & Subwoofer Volume control with Mute, and at least 6 Memory Presets.

8. Full controll via Android and iOS tablet apps via BT connection.

9. Analog Main & Aux Stereo RCA Inputs, 2 Optical Toslink inputs, 1 Coaxial Digital Input 

10. Wireless Streaming via Bluetooth Apt-X protocol

11. OEM Source high- & low-level input channel summing/FR smoothing (a la RF 3Sixty.3)

12. 6dB-72dB/Octave X/O Slopes (love this on the Sony XDP-4000X)

I'm sure that I'm forgetting something!  Just have a look a the soon-to-be-released 10-Channel Helix DSP PRO. 

Just my .02 FWIW


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## Zippy

I have noticed a similar feature in all the Italian brand amps. They are all class A amps to some degree. Mosconi's gladen, Audion's thesis, and Voce 5.1k even has 2 class A channels. That's the big appeal of those amps in my eyes. I think the Voce 5.1K is one of the best to look at. Class A for tweeters, Class AB for mids and Class D for sub. I would think a 6 channel for full active front stage with stage amplification and power levels to match drives would sell really well. 75 watt class A for tweeters, Class AB at 150 for midrange, and class ABD at 300 watts for midbass, each step up in power would retain the power bar from the lower power channels. Basically, the Class A power bar being used all the way across the amp, adding class B power bar at the mid and midbass channel, and finally adding some class D power for the midbass. This keeps the amp cleanest where it's most noticeable and efficient where it least noticeable.

As for DSP, no one has a DSP that is app controlled. How easy would it be to sell a DSP to DIYers that you can tune on the fly from an iPad or iPhone? Minimum of 9 channels. 3way active up front, rear fill, and a sub out. I know a lot of people do not use rear fill, but for those that do this does not exist from any manufacturer. 

My $.02


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## Butt Hz

Zippy said:


> As for DSP, no one has a DSP that is app controlled. How easy would it be to sell a DSP to DIYers that you can tune on the fly from an iPad or iPhone? Minimum of 9 channels. 3way active up front, rear fill, and a sub out. I know a lot of people do not use rear fill, but for those that do this does not exist from any manufacturer.


This 

The only thing that i would add to the amplifier design is that the logo badge can be removed and flipped 180º (or maybe even 90) so that no matter how you mount the amp, the logo is always facing up


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## 0nbagz

^^ agreed that's one thing that turns me off displaying my amps people have to stand on there heads to read them.


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## Guest

I think two (2) lines of amplifiers. One that reflects a "minimalistic" design to please those that currently have either built-in or add-on DSP. Another line that displays the "kitchen sink" mentality, using a well designed signal path and a very capable DSP section.

An "ideal amplifier" in my humble opinion:

Individual mono channels,
Individual gain control per channel,
150-200 watts per channel,
Accurate controls,
Understated yet elegant design,

My $0.02


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## rton20s

I got in on your original survey, but I am curious to see what this leads to. 

And this site needs a "like" button. I think bbfoto hit most of the key points in my mind. His mention of the JL HD and Alpine PDX amps couldn't have been more spot on. These guys are huge players in the car audio game (regardless of company size) and have the amp thing pretty well figured out with their top tier offerings. High quality class D in a compact, stackable chassis. 

What they are missing, or maybe have too much of are their features. I've said it before, just as so many others have, just give me a gain knob per channel and be done with it. No crossovers, no bass boost, nothing. Honestly, if Pioneer had followed through on their PRS-D800 with a full line of four channel and mono amps, it is probably what I would have in my car right now. (Especially considering the exceptionally low street price.) That PRS-D800 might be a little large by today's ultra-compact standards, but they got the features and aesthetics right.


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## schmiddr2

Yes, but what is the cost to add crossover circuitry and how many more customers will buy based on that feature alone? If it costs the company $5 to add crossovers during production, and they sell 10% more amps because of it, it would be worth it from a bottom line POV. Since it does not affect how we use it with a DSP it might not be worth removing.

IF there is an audible difference with and without crossovers then that may be worth it.


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## rton20s

I've always looked at the crossovers, defeatable or not, as one more source that could _potentially_ color the sound. Whether or not this is actually true, I do not know, and could be product dependent. I'd just rather not see, or pay for it.  

That being said, if a company insists on including a crossover, I would prefer to see a very broad frequency range. Even if it means adding a 10x multiplier switch. If we have to have it, lets make sure it is as flexible as possible. I want something that would work as an infrasonic filter for a subwoofer or my tweeter high pass.


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## Victor_inox

Butt Hz said:


> This
> 
> The only thing that i would add to the amplifier design is that the logo badge can be removed and flipped 180º (or maybe even 90) so that no matter how you mount the amp, the logo is always facing up


Square logo on square amps just like Brax- sexy and functional. and blank one provided for those of us who don`t want to carry your advertisement for free. In fact all logos must be removable.


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## envisionelec

bbfoto said:


> Here is my input regarding the amplifiers:
> 
> 1. Maximum Finished Thickness of 2" or less if at all possible.
> 
> 2. Stackable design if at all possible. Of course, this would mean a Consistent Overall Footprint/Chassis Size for the entire lineup. Maybe some think this would be boring, but IMHO I can't tell you how nice & how much easier it is for shops, installers, and the DIY'er! This REALLY simplifies system design, layout, and installation! ...increased sales.
> 
> 3. If not #2, then at least the same Thickness and Width for the entire lineup. Length could vary due to the # of channels and/or power output, but makes layout and installation more difficult. Obviously this reduces tooling & heat sink extrusion costs, but IMHO it's still not as desirable as #2.
> 
> 4. All connections, signal inputs/outputs/power and gain pots along one side or end. Although I realize that this may not always result in optimum amplifier performance through proper internal electrical paths/routing/layout/design.
> 
> 5. No funky shapes, curves, or unique areas or projections that stick out from the main body of the amp, including mounting points. Yes, I'm asking for a boring square or rectangular box with all flat surfaces!  This is the most efficient use of space and easiest to custom-mount (nest) and/or stack into virtually any location. Again, Installer-friendly = more sales.
> 
> 6. IMO, Size Matters! SMALL, that is!  Over the last several years I've found it increasingly difficult to consider using anything other than the smaller Class D or similar high-efficiency amps, such as the JL Audio HD and Alpine PDX-F & -M amplifiers. The Power is there, the SQ is there, performance is proven. And IMO, the main benefit is that they will *easily fit under a seat*. If a particular amp is too large to fit under a seat, well that is a big disadvantage, and will exponentially reduce the amount of installs it will go into, hence reduced sales. If you are only targeting the boutique/SQ fanatic market, and are not concerned if the quanity of sales are low, by all means, create a beautiful, large amp lineup with big power. I admit, we all LOVE these amps! But I'm sure you already know that we at DIYMA (and all "hard-core" SQ/SQL enthusiasts) *maybe* make up just 10% of the consumer base. Honestly, how many of us can actually fit 3-4 Arc Audio SE-series or similar-sized amps into our installs, or are willing to give up that space?
> 
> 7. Maybe offer 2 finishes?: Standard Brushed Aluminum, and Black Anodized Brushed Aluminum. Don't use any wacky or unique color schemes that will make it difficult to aesthetically integrate with OEM interiors. Customers obviously have the option to custom paint/finish the amps as they please. Side note: From an aesthetic viewpoint, I love the looks and design of the DLS A-series amps.
> 
> 
> Regarding the DSP:
> 
> 1. Minimum of 10 channels, preferably 13!
> 
> 2. 30-band Independent L/R PEQ for all channels.
> 
> 3. 15° Phase Angle adjustment for all channels.
> 
> 4. Minimum of 0.5dB EQ/level adjustment increments.
> 
> 5. Minimum of 1cm Digital Delay/Time-Alignment increments. Preferably a bit smaller (crazy I know!)
> 
> 6. 24-bit/96kHz Processing Resolution w/o the need to up-sample or down-sample if 24/96 input signal.
> 
> 7. Single DIN Controller Interface similar to the Alpine RUX, in addition to Windows & Mac control via USB & Bluetooth. Or at least an installer-friendly Remote with overall System & Subwoofer Volume control with Mute, and at least 6 Memory Presets.
> 
> 8. Full controll via Android and iOS tablet apps via BT connection.
> 
> 9. Analog Main & Aux Stereo RCA Inputs, 2 Optical Toslink inputs, 1 Coaxial Digital Input
> 
> 10. Wireless Streaming via Bluetooth Apt-X protocol
> 
> 11. OEM Source high- & low-level input channel summing/FR smoothing (a la RF 3Sixty.3)
> 
> 12. 6dB-72dB/Octave X/O Slopes (love this on the Sony XDP-4000X)
> 
> I'm sure that I'm forgetting something!  Just have a look a the soon-to-be-released 10-Channel Helix DSP PRO.
> 
> Just my .02 FWIW


Then you're going to love my DSP. I would give more details, but not yet. 

I can say we will have:
6 or 12 channel output (expandable) in standard unbalanced or balanced output SPIDF input (optical or balanced) from OEM or aftermarket sources. 
A couple sets of analog inputs. 
Navigation input (auto muting or attenuating other sources)
BT audio and BT control
Possible CANBus interface for highly integrated OEM control
Might pursue iPod input (made for iPod licensing)
Optional hardware control - master volume/multifunction control. 


It's very similar to one I discussed a few years ago. I really thought a company would have stepped up to the plate by now but I guess it will have to be me. Not that I mind...

On the amplifiers: I was once an installer and know exactly what you're talking about. I have listened to what people like and don't like for many years. The standard footprint with stackable features is a great idea but is also patented. Plus I can't say it looks all that good. And the reliability of the Alpine amplifiers was not that great as I recall. They were also very difficult to repair which is not inline with our goals. 

Class A is quite the misnomer. The output stage is almost certainly NOT Class A but the voltage amplifier stage (VAS) is. However that's a marketing technique as old as the hills. If we have a Class A circuit it will be because it performs the best in our application, not because we want it to say Class A. 

Soon enough I will have a sketch rendering of one of the amplifier designs. The finish is tasteful. If it doesn't suit you, the top covers are removeable and can be finished however you like. Painting, hydro dip, powder, vinyl, chrome, bead blasted, you name it. You will also be able to buy replacement covers. The end caps are aluminum or wood(!). And you will be offered a cut list to make your own caps.


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## legend94

How about an old school type look like an audio art? Or monitor 1?


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## Guest

Very nice !
Excited to learn more

sent from somewhere in TN...


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## envisionelec

Angrywhopper said:


> I guess I should have asked first; are you planning on having your products in retail stores and eTailers or is it a very specialized product sold from your direct website?


The plan is to go into retail stores with strict rules against gray market sales. That way our distribution, support and warranty is handled locally. Most retailers don't especially like having to compete with e-tailers and we will work very hard to make sure they won't have to.

I'll never forget what happened to all the B&M stores when RF went into the local big boxes. They could no longer compete. Lots of hurt and angry folks.


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## envisionelec

legend94 said:


> How about an old school type look like an audio art? Or monitor 1?


I've toyed with the idea. It's not off the table. But fins are easily damaged and not easily repaired. A shroud type covering can be hammered back out and repainted if necessary, or replaced as we will offer those at a reasonable cost. It will also be easily replicated by any decent metal shop. The fins it does have are straight down the middle. If you remember the Adcom brand, it's shaped like that but without the full top cover and the fan vent (ugh). The fins are exposed, but mostly protected by the shroud. 

The classic design is not the lowest profile amplifier at about 3" in the center, tapering down at the sides to about 2.2". Admittedly, I am not targeting the general public. The amplifiers should be seen - it's how they're designed. If they're under the seat...man...I don't know. All I can think about is pet hair and old fries...and mud. I'd rather somebody bought another amp than subject one of these beauties to that kind of torture. I'm totally serious. They are length-variable just like the old schoolies. They will butt together with a link that can be removed without pulling the amps out (will have to pop the covers). 

The covers are secured along the top near the heat sink and the bottom edge is set with locating features in the sheet metal. It's a trick I learned along the way. The mounting feet / holes are under the covers, too but are on semi-flexible tabs so they will bend slightly on an uneven surface without distorting the whole bottom chassis. The chassis itself will have stiffening features as well. They are virtually seamless when mounted without panels or end caps that can get lost which is exactly what you want for a quality install.

So I think there will be enough reasons from an install and appearance standpoint to give them a serious look. As I've mentioned in other places, sonics take precedence, but thoughtful design isn't any less important.


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## legend94

You said it all when you said sonics takes presedence. 

That is the biggest deciding factor in all my amp purchases.

I also like that you are making everything transparent and setting them up to be more customizable. Call it the open source amp!


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## Angrywhopper

envisionelec said:


> The plan is to go into retail stores with strict rules against gray market sales.


If I had a nickel for everytime a rep told me that, I'd be rich.


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## bbfoto

envisionelec said:


> Then you're going to love my DSP. I would give more details, but not yet.
> 
> I can say we will have:
> 6 or 12 channel output (expandable) in standard unbalanced or balanced output SPIDF input (optical or balanced) from OEM or aftermarket sources.
> A couple sets of analog inputs.
> Navigation input (auto muting or attenuating other sources)
> BT audio and BT control
> Possible CANBus interface for highly integrated OEM control
> Might pursue iPod input (made for iPod licensing)
> Optional hardware control - master volume/multifunction control.
> 
> 
> It's very similar to one I discussed a few years ago. I really thought a company would have stepped up to the plate by now but I guess it will have to be me. Not that I mind...
> 
> On the amplifiers: I was once an installer and know exactly what you're talking about. I have listened to what people like and don't like for many years. The standard footprint with stackable features is a great idea but is also patented. Plus I can't say it looks all that good. And the reliability of the Alpine amplifiers was not that great as I recall. They were also very difficult to repair which is not inline with our goals.
> 
> Class A is quite the misnomer. The output stage is almost certainly NOT Class A but the voltage amplifier stage (VAS) is. However that's a marketing technique as old as the hills. If we have a Class A circuit it will be because it performs the best in our application, not because we want it to say Class A.
> 
> Soon enough I will have a sketch rendering of one of the amplifier designs. The finish is tasteful. If it doesn't suit you, the top covers are removeable and can be finished however you like. Painting, hydro dip, powder, vinyl, chrome, bead blasted, you name it. You will also be able to buy replacement covers. The end caps are aluminum or wood(!). And you will be offered a cut list to make your own caps.


LOVE IT! It seems that you're headed in the right direction.  Hopefully the DSP will be capable of doing all computations/processing at a native 24-bit/96kHz. With the onslaught of Hi-Res/DSD Home & Portable Audio DACs, and DAC/Headphone Amp combos, anything limited to 16/44.1 or 16/48 is truly "a dinosaur" and rarely even given a second look. You WILL be competing with the new Helix DSP PRO, so can it match or best the quality and features from that highly-respected brand?

As far as amps go, there is one thing that I forgot to mention... 5 Channels!!! Ideally 4x150w+ with 1x600w+ as a minimum (all at 4-ohm loads). With just two of these amps you can create a very robust system. And you can bridge 2 channels on each amp if you want more power to your midbass drivers and still do a front 3-way + 2 subs or a single DVC subwoofer.

Ideally, you would have a mono 1000w-1200w amp as well, that way the sub channels on the 4+1 amps could be used on the midbass drivers and you free up 2 channels for rear fill/ambiance, etc.

With just those two amplifier designs you can cover almost every practical system configuration imaginable.

More inspiration: Brax Graphic X-series amps (for physical design, mounting, performance).

I'm enthusiastic and honestly wish you the best of luck in making these products a reality. But I would urge you to seriously consider the business/numbers side of this endevor exhaustively, and lose the emotional attachment/attitude of "I'd rather not sell them if they will be put under a seat".

However, I guess it depends on if you are just doing this as a side hobby to sell to a select few enthusiasts (Zuki Audio comes to mind), or if you are planning to derive a substantial source of income from this venture? If I were creating a product to bring to market, I sure as hell would want to design it to be usable & desireable to anyone and everyone in the marketplace.

IMHO, the amplifier market is already saturated with literally Hundreds or even thousands of EXCELLENT designs and options already, from many companies who have BIG marketing dollars. Honestly ask yourself, "How can I realistically and successfully compete with existing products & brands"? If you can't answer that with, "High-Quality, Top-Performance, RELIABILTY, Flexible Design/USABILITY, Reasonably Affordable (cost/performance), Excellent/Prompt Customer Service, and Extensive Targeted Marketing", can you honestly expect to sell your product?

But, if you hit all of the major bullet points discussed in this thread, and can offer true high-quality, reliable, and simple, but stylistic line of products with measured performance, and flexible installation options, then they will surely fly off the shelves.

Keep us posted.

EDIT: Regarding the DSP, will I need 2 separate "boxes" or units to get 12 channels?


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## miniSQ

i would love to see amps that were modular. Well that may not be the correct word. But with everything getting smaller, i think it would be cool to buy a chassis system that would allow for changes and upgrades to be made to it after it was installed. I know it would not be for everyone, but if you could buy a chassis once, and then configure it for say 2 front channels at 50x2 and a sub at 300x1 at 4ohms.

Down the line you want to upgrade your speakers and want 200 watts by 2..you pop open the chassis and pop out the 2x50 and trade it in for a 2x200 and be on your way. No rewiring..no rebuilding your amp rack or trunk. Just more power ( or less if you wanted to downgrade )
Want to change your sub or add an extra sub but the 200x1 at 4ohms wont work...pop it out and trade it in for a 1000watt x 1 at 2 ohms.


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## Victor_inox

miniSQ said:


> i would love to see amps that were modular. Well that may not be the correct word. But with everything getting smaller, i think it would be cool to buy a chassis system that would allow for changes and upgrades to be made to it after it was installed. I know it would not be for everyone, but if you could buy a chassis once, and then configure it for say 2 front channels at 50x2 and a sub at 300x1 at 4ohms.
> 
> Down the line you want to upgrade your speakers and want 200 watts by 2..you pop open the chassis and pop out the 2x50 and trade it in for a 2x200 and be on your way. No rewiring..no rebuilding your amp rack or trunk. Just more power ( or less if you wanted to downgrade )
> Want to change your sub or add an extra sub but the 200x1 at 4ohms wont work...pop it out and trade it in for a 1000watt x 1 at 2 ohms.


I can assure you this is not happening.


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## upgrayedd

One aesthetic design that I always love is a design that you can seamlessly link the heatsinks of and not have badges or asymmetry detract. The 2 best examples of this are the dsm rockford and 2nd gen zr kicker amps. The first gen mtx thunder looked good as far as the heat sinks but the badges ruined it and the later rockford were all different sizes, so it just looked horrible unless you had the same size amps. IMO there is nothing cleaner than 4' of seamless amplifier running the entire vehicle.


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## Theslaking

miniSQ said:


> i would love to see amps that were modular. Well that may not be the correct word. But with everything getting smaller, i think it would be cool to buy a chassis system that would allow for changes and upgrades to be made to it after it was installed. I know it would not be for everyone, but if you could buy a chassis once, and then configure it for say 2 front channels at 50x2 and a sub at 300x1 at 4ohms.
> 
> Down the line you want to upgrade your speakers and want 200 watts by 2..you pop open the chassis and pop out the 2x50 and trade it in for a 2x200 and be on your way. No rewiring..no rebuilding your amp rack or trunk. Just more power ( or less if you wanted to downgrade )
> Want to change your sub or add an extra sub but the 200x1 at 4ohms wont work...pop it out and trade it in for a 1000watt x 1 at 2 ohms.


I agree with Victor that it is probably never happening, but it may be the best amplifier design idea I've ever heard. It seems like it would be pretty easy to do. And makes some sense.


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## Carlton8000

I would like to see an amplifier with the following. 

A. Separate dual mono power supplies. 
B. Ability to plug in amplifier modules stereo and mono of varying power output with true balanced and single end inputs. Adjustment of gain only on the amp modules.
C. Various preamp modules both solid state and tube. With the option of rf volume control.
D. DSP available as an additional module. 

E. Blank plates to keep clean lines for modules that are not used. 

I think Canton did something like this many years ago. 

Best of luck with your endeavor.


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## JoshHefnerX

I'll echo some of the same sentiments

no crossover - just wasted money and space
separate gain controls
same form factor for width/height and simple case/heatsink
optional link modules to give that long monolithic look similar to amps of yore. 

Josh


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## envisionelec

Ok guys - I have not been holding out on you. I am still moving house. This is a long process if you have as much sh*t as I do. Haha.

I WILL update everyone on the results of the survey.


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## envisionelec

JoshHefnerX said:


> I'll echo some of the same sentiments
> 
> no crossover - just wasted money and space
> separate gain controls
> same form factor for width/height and simple case/heatsink
> optional link modules to give that long monolithic look similar to amps of yore.
> 
> Josh


Well, you've nailed the design form-factor of the "top end" product. It is fully modular. There are huge bus bars that run through the amplifiers and screw down to the circuit board. If you want to link them end-to-end, it's a matter of adding a link. If not, the bars are terminated with a set screw connector. It's truly old-school but not poor quality or "janky".

There will be places to install modular crossovers - similar to the way Xtant used to do it. I decided that not having the options for any crossovers or signal processing was limiting to the market.


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## envisionelec

Theslaking said:


> I agree with Victor that it is probably never happening, but it may be the best amplifier design idea I've ever heard. It seems like it would be pretty easy to do. And makes some sense.


Yes, I do have a design that is exactly this. But it's not exactly an easy sell. And it looks like a toaster. There are six modules which can be set up for 12 x 100W and any combination down to 1200W x 1. It's also expensive to manufacture because of several factors. But it's probably the only way you could get 12 channels of anything into some of the smallest spaces. It measures (HxWxD) 8x8x14

Here's an old video rendering. I did this one in 2007 - a bit ahead of its time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZUS5ZEw_-M&list=UUKxsV0-YWoLl4-7RdvWu0CQ


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## KP

We still need to do the power distro thing too........


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## miniSQ

envisionelec said:


> Yes, I do have a design that is exactly this. But it's not exactly an easy sell. And it looks like a toaster. There are six modules which can be set up for 12 x 100W and any combination down to 1200W x 1. It's also expensive to manufacture because of several factors. But it's probably the only way you could get 12 channels of anything into some of the smallest spaces. It measures (HxWxD) 8x8x14
> 
> Here's an old video rendering. I did this one in 2007 - a bit ahead of its time.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZUS5ZEw_-M&list=UUKxsV0-YWoLl4-7RdvWu0CQ


i was thinking along the same lines...i got the idea from a NAS that i have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX_rxU2_pJ4


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## Theslaking

envisionelec said:


> Yes, I do have a design that is exactly this. But it's not exactly an easy sell. And it looks like a toaster. There are six modules which can be set up for 12 x 100W and any combination down to 1200W x 1. It's also expensive to manufacture because of several factors. But it's probably the only way you could get 12 channels of anything into some of the smallest spaces. It measures (HxWxD) 8x8x14
> 
> Here's an old video rendering. I did this one in 2007 - a bit ahead of its time.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZUS5ZEw_-M&list=UUKxsV0-YWoLl4-7RdvWu0CQ


I've thought of a design that just has removable guts. Uses the same chassis as conventional amps. This way you can still have a visually pleasing experience. If you find a happy medium chassis size that could accommodate say 200-1400w guts and as you suggested removable crossover options that would be sweet. I wish I knew more than - is ground and + is power. I would build my own amps. You can save me the trouble of learning by whipping out one of these things soon.


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## Victor_inox

envisionelec said:


> Yes, I do have a design that is exactly this. But it's not exactly an easy sell. And it looks like a toaster. There are six modules which can be set up for 12 x 100W and any combination down to 1200W x 1. It's also expensive to manufacture because of several factors. But it's probably the only way you could get 12 channels of anything into some of the smallest spaces. It measures (HxWxD) 8x8x14
> 
> Here's an old video rendering. I did this one in 2007 - a bit ahead of its time.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZUS5ZEw_-M&list=UUKxsV0-YWoLl4-7RdvWu0CQ


Sweet out of the box idea, probably going to be too expensive to be a good seller but cool nonetheless despite a long pass from idea to implementation.


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## JoshHefnerX

sounds like it's going to be extremely cool.


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## fcarpio

Subbed.

The most basic amp you can come up with, just gains per channel. Brushed aluminium chassis, something like the one a member here did for one of Victor's preamps. Compact. Quality compnents and no fluff.


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## jpeezy

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...arJx1G75bUGGHcJhyw4cH8_w&ust=1418907198313883


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## jpeezy

A lot of the input sounds like that above^^^, but for me one of the coolest amps ive seen were the old(really old) Canton Rack amps,they were so far ahead of their time, probably why they didnt fair so well in US market, another old favorite no nonsense amp: PPI AM series amps.


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## jpeezy

I cant even find an image of the canton amps


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## jpeezy

it had a main frame with power input and plug in modules that mounted one next to the other from left to right,super clean,but obviously you could only use canton modules on the rack.


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## brett

very interested in how this eventually pans out. i echo bbfoto's original suggestions. also, for those of us who live in hot environments, i'd like to see internal fans on the amps if possible

and app-based interface for the dsp is a must. also, if you can squeeze true center channel processing in there, that would be sweet!


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## bkjay

Updates?


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## xrdcarbon

Post it up here!


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