# 2011 MINI Cooper S SQ build - HAT, JL, Alpine, Knu, SecondSkin, SDS, PWK



## Neil_J

I humbly submit to you my first SQ build. I will get into the details in a minute, but first, here is some hardcore auto pornography:


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## Neil_J

OK, now for the boring part

*Vehicle:* 
2011 Chili Red MINI Cooper S, custom ordered May 9 and built in the Oxford England plant, delivered June 23.

*Complexity of installation:* 
11 out of 10. Probably a few watts / CPU cycles away from finding the Higgs Boson.

*Competency of installer (me):* 
Pretty damn competent until my fifth beer or so. 

*Goals: *
To get as many Ess Que's as possible. These are mythical and subjective, so see below for my definition and requirements.
It should be able to get LOUD but still sound good doing so. I don't trust people who don't listed to music at loud volumes from time to time. If I'm going through the trouble of recreating a concert-like soundstage, I would like to reproduce the concert-like sound pressure level as well. Admittedly, I am also a basshead and love the occasional Dubstep song or two.
To have as much fun as possible working on my car, which is sort of a Zen thing for me. Not so much an ends to a means, but rather a journey of gathering real-world experience and enlightenment. The fact that I get something cool at the end is a bonus.
*Install Summary:*

*Sound deadening:* The stock MINI does make use of some clever sound deadening techniques, but they just don't cut it. Will be done in multiple stages: First, the front doors, hatch area and rear quarter panels. Then, the floor, firewall, and headliner. A few packs of Second Skin Audio Damplifier Pro CLD tiles have been purchased, and several rolls of Sound Deadener Showdown closed-cell foam and mass-loaded vinyl. 
*Head unit:* Currently using the stock MINI head unit. I've taken frequency response measurements with a scope and test tone CD, and they look like ****. The radio equalizes the signals pretty hard to overcome the stock 3" speakers, driving most frequencies into cutoff if the volume is too high, with nasty harmonics up in the khz region. There is no volume readout on the rotary encoder, so I must be cautious never to turn the knob within 9 clicks of full volume. 20 Hz is attenuated to almost nothing. Obviously some serious processing will be needed, which leads us to…
*DSP/Processing:* The system was built around a JBL MS-8. My home system has Pro Logic surround and quite like it. The MS-8's Logic7 processing was a major selling point, along with the center channel and binaural phase averaging. I'm fully confident in my ability to tune a full-manual DSP box with TA, EQ, crossover settings, etc., but I'll still be happy if the MS-8 does all this for me.


> MS-8 Channel 1: FL midrange L3SE, tweet L1 Pro R2
> MS-8 Channel 2: FR midrange L3SE, tweet L1 Pro R2
> MS-8 Channel 3: FL midbass L6SE
> MS-8 Channel 4: FR midbass L6SE
> MS-8 Channel 5: RL wideband TB3" and midbass SLS6
> MS-8 Channel 6: RR wideband TB3" and midbass SLS6
> MS-8 Channel 7: FC midrange L3SE, tweet L1 Pro R2
> MS-8 Channel 8: Subwoofer, 4x SWR-843D



*Front stage:* Hybrid Audio Legatia SE series three-way in the doors/a-pillars, and eventually a center channel (this will be very challenging to integrate into the dash, but should be well worth it). 
L1 Pro R2's in custom aluminum A-pillar pods (made by diyma user Headshok). These are by far the crown jewel of my system. They sound positively lurvely.
L3SE's temporarily mounted in the stock door location, and eventually in fiberglassed A-pillar pods.
L6SE's in the stock 100mm door location. Lots of fabrication required to squeeze these in.

*Rear stage:* I'd like to accomplish two mutually exclusive things with my rear stage. I will be able to flip a switch to do either: #1 provide Logic 7 surround, or #2, provide midbass reinforcement to the front L6SE's at the sacrifice of soundstage. I'll accomplish this with a relay and some custom RCA cables.
Tang Band TB W3-1364SA widebanders in custom ear-level pods
Peerless SLS 830946 6.5" mounted in the stock rear 6x9 location near the passenger's elbows

*Sub stage:* I chose 4x Alpine SWR-843D's for a few reasons: they are super cheap, have shorting rings, low Le, and get loud without much distortion. I am trying to eliminate muddiness, boominess, and harmonic distortion / non-linearities as much as possible (the idea here being that "up-front-bass" can be achieved as long as higher frequencies do not give away the true position of the subwoofers). Step response should be instantaneous. Using four of them should minimize excursion. I would also like the box to dig as low towards 20 Hz, although I'm not sure if this can be pulled off. Pete from PWK Designs is currently designing a sealed box to meet these requirements. It will be placed in the hatch / storage area in a false-floor setup, with the speakers pointing towards the roof. 

*Amp rack:* I chose to go with four of the JL Audio XD series amplifiers. Amplifier size is the biggest requirement here, with low THD/IMD a close second. The MINI's hatch area is big enough for a grocery bag or two. This ruled out a lot of great amps that were simply too large. They will be set up as follows:


> JL XD700.5 #1, channel #1: FL tweeter L1 Pro R2 (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD700.5 #1, channel #2: FR tweeter L1 Pro R2 (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD700.5 #1, channel #3: FL midrange L3SE (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD700.5 #1, channel #4: FR midrange L3SE (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD700.5 #1, channel #5: Subwoofer #1 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)
> 
> JL XD700.5 #2, channel #1&2: FL midbass (bridged, 4 ohm, 200W)
> JL XD700.5 #2, channel #3&4: FR midbass (bridged, 4 ohm, 200W)
> JL XD700.5 #2, channel #5: Subwoofer #2 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)
> 
> JL XD500.3 #1, channel 1: FC tweeter L1 Pro R2 (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD500.3 #1, channel 2: FC midrange (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD500.3 #1, channel 3: Subwoofer #3 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)
> 
> JL XD500.3 #2, channel 1: RL midbass SLS6 (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD500.3 #2, channel 2: RR midbass SLS6 (4 ohm, 75W)
> JL XD500.3 #2, channel 3: Subwoofer #3 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)
> 
> JBL MS-8, channel 5: RL sideband TB3" (8 ohm, 15W)
> JBL MS-8, channel 6: RR sideband TB3" (8 ohm, 15W)



*Crossover settings:*
Subsonic filter: 20 Hz, 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley via MS-8
Sub to midbass: ~63 Hz, 24 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley via MS-8
Midbass to midrange: ~200 Hz, 24 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley via MS-8
Midrange to tweet: ~4-5KHz, 12 dB/octave State-Variable / Sallen-Key via JL XD700/5

*Installation:*
The installation theme will make heavy use of genuine carbon fiber, chrome, carbon techflex, and possibly a chili-red fiberglass panel or two
The passenger compartment and dash must remain stock. The hatch area must look stock after a carpet-covered panel is placed over it.
All RCA and signal cabling will be DIY'd using red Canare Star Quad signal cable. All RCA and signal cabling will have its braided shielding tied to chassis ground on the transmitting end
All exposed cables will be wrapped in carbon techflex
All unexposed cables will be wrapped in fleece tape
All cables will be secured every 6 inches using stock BMW/MINI wiring mounts
All LED's will be changed to amber-orange to match stock MINI color scheme
All parts should be USA-made or purchased from a local or privately-owned company when possible


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## Neil_J

*Doors*

The stock MINI midbass speakers were roughly 5 inches or so diameter. After seeing necrophidious's build log, I decided to follow suit and squeeze a pair of 6.5's in their place.


First, remove the door skin and enlarge the basket hole.



























Then, I designed a set of MDF rings in CAD and had them laser cut via Ponoko Personal Factory. I'm still trying to dig up a picture of the laser cut sheet as it arrived.









Non-hardening modeling clay was liberally applied to keep everything air-tight, and add some mass









Now I need to fabricate some badass custom grills


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## Neil_J

*Power wiring*

The BMW/MINI engineers were nice enough to provide a watertight passage through the firewall that was large enough for the Knu 1/0 AWG Kollossus Fleks Kable


















Fleece tape will be added on top of the techflex, and will be routed down the passenger side of the vehicle









Techflexed and heat-shrunk. The fuse block is an Audison/Connexion SFH-11WP. I hadn't decided how the heck to mount it at this point. I will probably be making a custom mount sometime in the future. For now, it's ziptied into a pretty inconvenient spot underneath the plastic cowl.


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## astrochex

Nice work!

I hope the stock HU does not prevent you from meeting your SQ dreams. 

You've given me an idea to remount my midbass on the outside of the door panel. I also look forward to your grill ideas.


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## Neil_J

*Sound Deadening part 1*

Care package from Don at Sound Deadener Showdown. Not shown are the packs of Second Skin Audio Damplifier Pro









Removed stock quarter panels





























I gave him a beard:









My favorite way to do the Damplifier Pro. Cut in half. Then cut into 3" and/or 2" strips. I use a hobby self-healing cutting board and a carpeting razor blade.









All of the stock sound deadening is being removed. First go at it with a gasket scraper until it looks like above. Then remove residue with 3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover. Let car air out for about a day.









MLV rough-cut to size









Passenger door panel


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## Neil_J

astrochex said:


> I hope the stock HU prevents you from meeting your SQ dreams.


That's kind of a mean thing to say, lol  

The stock HU won't really prevent me from doing anything. I'll be wiring an Apple Airport Express under the seat, which will give me A2DP audio streaming from my iPhone and iPad directly into the JBL MS-8 aux input. I don't listen to CD's or FM radio, and XM/Sirius never sounded great to begin with. This should at least guarantee me a direct signal path where it counts (my iTunes collection)


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## Neil_J

*Door Midbass wiring*

Stock midbass wiring was ~20 or 22 AWG. All door wiring runs through a door jamb connector, which makes it difficult to upgrade. **** you, BMW/MINI!









12 AWG Dayton speaker wire was spliced into the harness within 1" on both sides of the connector. Ohm's law works in my favor here... The voltage drop across the pins and 1" 22AWG pigtails isn't much in the grand scheme of things.


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## quality_sound

I can't wait to see how you squeeze 4 amps in here. I'm going to do dual HD900/5s in my Clubman and that's been interesting to lay out. Are you going to use the underseat areas at all.


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## whodat90

You are the king. I've been wondering every single time I saw someone drill out the connector and mash a bunch of wires through why they didn't just add pins to the empty sockets. So much cleaner and more serviceable.


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## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> I can't wait to see how you squeeze 4 amps in here. I'm going to do dual HD900/5s in my Clubman and that's been interesting to lay out. Are you going to use the underseat areas at all.


The JBL MS-8 ain't a looker, so it's going under the passenger seat 

The four amps are about 37" across, so they should fit perfectly above the four subs in the false floor box. I've modeled it up in CAD, and it looks pretty damn sweet. The wiring will be exposed like those oldschool installs did it, where they feed down through a rubber grommet past a plywood floor. All the wiring will go to hidden terminal blocks on the underside and will be able to be rerouted to try different configurations.


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## slade1274

Where in florida?


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## Neil_J

Melbourne. If anyone else from Florida is up for a mini diyma get together, let me know...


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## ecbmxer

Looking good!


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## slade1274

Neil_J said:


> Melbourne. If anyone else from Florida is up for a mini diyma get together, let me know...


Interest- St. Pete area here- just across the state.


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## astrochex

Neil_J said:


> That's kind of a mean thing to say, lol
> 
> The stock HU won't really prevent me from doing anything. I'll be wiring an Apple Airport Express under the seat, which will give me A2DP audio streaming from my iPhone and iPad directly into the JBL MS-8 aux input. I don't listen to CD's or FM radio, and XM/Sirius never sounded great to begin with. This should at least guarantee me a direct signal path where it counts (my iTunes collection)


I missed my crappy typo.... 

Not many MINI builds out there, and yours is really squared away.

Do you plan on competing?


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## GLN305

I just bought a used 2008 Cooper S and I am accumulating equipment right now for it. Interested to see what you come up with in the boot.


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## t3sn4f2

Nice build man. I'm really interested in your venture to reverse engineer the MS-8's common functions, which you mentioned in another thread. Hope that goes well.

Question about the APE idea. Did you mean wireless digital audio (ie Apple encrypted wireless ALAC transmission) instead of Bluetooth audio A2DP? Because I don't think the APE has that bluetooth or any bluetooth option really. 

If so and assuming you'll be running Airplay, I then suggest you see how your iphone will function when it is not connected to the internet on the APE's end. Naturally, how it would be in a car solution. I've tried my iphone with my home router unplugged from the cable modems input. It messed up a bunch of apps like weather and maps. Dunno how it would behave today though after so many OS revisions though. Just a heads up.

Have you considered hardwired solutions like a Pure i-20? Better quality analog out, 2V RMS output, digi out option, DC input, VERY fast boot/sync, affordable ($100), and won't compromise the phones network functions. It also doesn't loose sync while pausing and trackfowarding which on all but the most competant DAC will result in pops and ticking noises.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/109034-pure-i-20-digital-ipod-dock-analog-output-rmaa-measurements.html


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## MaxPowers

Nice so far! In the next few weeks I will be putting a Pioneer Stage 4 3 way in my chili red/silver Coupe. How much work did you do getting the 6.5" in the doors, any problems with depth? Do you have any more door pics?


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## GLN305

MaxPowers said:


> Nice so far! In the next few weeks I will be putting a Pioneer Stage 4 3 way in my chili red/silver Coupe. How much work did you do getting the 6.5" in the doors, any problems with depth? Do you have any more door pics?


I removed my door panels and measured the dimensions. To the front edge of the factory speaker, there is 3.5'', a 6.5'' mid will fit BEHIND the panel easily. If you go on top of the panel, you have more than 4'' of depth. For the midrange in the door, the biggest OD is 4.5'' and the opening is 3 3/4'', depth without trimming is 2'', with minor trimming is 2.5''.


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## Neil_J

astrochex said:


> I missed my crappy typo....
> 
> Not many MINI builds out there, and yours is really squared away.
> 
> Do you plan on competing?


No worries. I will hopefully be competing in IASCA and other competitions. I've read the rules and think I may be able to get a competitive edge in the rookie/amateur class for the first year or two, for both sound quality and install points. after that who knows, I'd probably go broke trying to keep up with the other advanced classes.



t3sn4f2 said:


> Nice build man. I'm really interested in your venture to reverse engineer the MS-8's common functions, which you mentioned in another thread. Hope that goes well.


That's still in the cards, after I get everything installed. The idea is to add an Atmega328 microprocessor between the display and MS-8, so that I can have instant access to certain functions without having to navigate through menus. Unfortunately it will be a one-off project with no chance of sharing the source code or schematics for legal reasons.



t3sn4f2 said:


> Question about the APE idea. Did you mean wireless digital audio (ie Apple encrypted wireless ALAC transmission) instead of Bluetooth audio A2DP? Because I don't think the APE has that bluetooth or any bluetooth option really.
> 
> If so and assuming you'll be running Airplay, I then suggest you see how your iphone will function when it is not connected to the internet on the APE's end. Naturally, how it would be in a car solution. I've tried my iphone with my home router unplugged from the cable modems input. It messed up a bunch of apps like weather and maps. Dunno how it would behave today though after so many OS revisions though. Just a heads up.
> 
> Have you considered hardwired solutions like a Pure i-20? Better quality analog out, 2V RMS output, digi out option, DC input, VERY fast boot/sync, affordable ($100), and won't compromise the phones network functions. It also doesn't loose sync while pausing and trackfowarding which on all but the most competant DAC will result in pops and ticking noises.


iPhones and iPads should be able to access an Apple Airport Express ad-hoc without much trouble. The Airport Express has a line audio output that will connect to the MS-8. The hardest part is getting power to it (I'll be hacking it open to feed it a regulated 5V source rather than using a 115V AC inverter). I have one and have played around with it a bit.. I've seen it done here on diyma without much issue. I'll definitely check out the Pure i-20. I miss my Pioneer deck that had really good ipod support. With the A2DP you have to manually start/stop and select the wireless access point every time you start your car. Kinda lame for day-to-day driving, but still worth it on long drives or SQ judging lanes.



MaxPowers said:


> Nice so far! In the next few weeks I will be putting a Pioneer Stage 4 3 way in my chili red/silver Coupe. How much work did you do getting the 6.5" in the doors, any problems with depth? Do you have any more door pics?


I've put a metric ****-ton of work into the doors… I could write a book on it. Still not even 50% done with them at this point. Probably 20-30 hours per door. That's including designing the MDF adapter, upgrading the cabling, sound deadening, and research. I will be elaborating on the construction over the next few days/weeks.


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## derickveliz

Awesome!


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## tilsim

Great job being done.


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## Oblivi0us

Have you considered an iStreamer? It will charge your iPhone/iPad and give you an analog output. It's what I was looking to use for my iPad integration.


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## bigdexxx

I really like where your build is going, the attention to detail is fantastic. I've always wanted a Mini, but I never will pull the trigger on one. I look forward to this build and keep up the great work.


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## mrzapco

nice car


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## Neil_J

Removed the passenger seat to install the MS-8 underneath the carpet, and to install my new HalGuard Halotron 1 fire extinguisher and Rennline mount.









The next step is to fabricate eight RCA cables using 120 feet of red Canare Star Quad signal cable









Opening up the MS-8 remote pod to add in a sheet of Rosco #22 orange filter gel between the LCD and the front bezel. Thanks to Radarcontact and his I want my MS-8 to display in RED! thread.









Don't mind the open container of alcohol in the cupholder 









This shot was over-exposed.. I need to re-take this picture with manual exposure control


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## Mopar244DIY

What is the natural colour of an MS-8 display? Mine is still in it's box. Love the MINI btw.


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## Neil_J

Mopar244DIY said:


> What is the natural colour of an MS-8 display? Mine is still in it's box. Love the MINI btw.


Bluish white


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## Mopar244DIY

Neil_J said:


> Bluish white


But ..... it can be changed?


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## eviling

nifty! i love hat gear. very simple way of doing the door. you could easily add hybrids L6 grill to that mounting, its a standrd flush mount grill.


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## Neil_J

eviling said:


> nifty! i love hat gear. very simple way of doing the door. you could easily add hybrids L6 grill to that mounting, its a standrd flush mount grill.


I'm going to design my own grills and them custom machined. The hybrid grills look pretty cheap for such a nice set of speakers, IMO


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## DAT

keep up the great job, loving it!


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## Neil_J

*Head unit to MS-8 wiring*

I chose to tap into the speaker output wires directly from the X13812 connector at the back of the head unit (If you're not comfortable taking your dash apart, you can get to these from the X9331 connector that's located in the driver's side footwell area instead). I routed the following wires to the MS-8 (I believe this should work for both Hifi and non-Hifi 2007-present models):

GE/BR (yellow with brown stripe) X13812 pin 6 (or X9331 pin 3) : Right +
GW/SW (yellow with black stripe) X13812 pin 2 (or X9331 pin 4) : Right -
SW/VI (black with violet stripe) X13812 pin 7 (or X9331 pin 5) : Left +
SW/RT (black with red stripe) X13812 pin 3 (or X9331 pin 6) : Left -
Always erring on the side of overkill, I used Canare Star Quad cable from the head unit to the MS-8 Hi Level input. Whenever I am working on low-voltage high-input impedance analog lines, whether it be aircraft wiring, automotive, or home audio hifi, I always tie the shield to chassis ground on the transmitting side only. This has the benefit of creating a Faraday cage around your audio signals, without creating a ground loop. You can see in the second picture that I tied the shield to the radio's ground wire (which however is tied directly to chassis ground). This isn't ideal but is still better than leaving it unconnected. 

For the amp turnon lead, there are a few choices. If your amp is mounted in the trunk, you can simply splice into the trunk cigarette lighter +12v switched power. The only disadvantage to this is that this power source is only switched on when you push the engine start button. The second choice is to tap into the radio's actual remote turnon lead, which switches on as soon as the remote key is inserted (this is important if your mids and highs are amp-powered, if you want to hear the door chime before the engine starts). This signal can be accessed from two places: The X13812 connector at the back of the head unit (pin 13, SW/black wire), or at the X15 connector in the driver side footwell (pin 1, SW/black on the female side of the connector, and pin 1, WS/white on the male side)

The bundle was wrapped in fleece tape, and then fed down towards the center console, underneath the carpet, to the MS-8 under the passenger seat.


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## quality_sound

Looks awesome so far!


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## trojan fan

Very nice build....keep up the good work...

Better drink that beer before it gets warm....lol


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## Neil_J

*L3SE's*

Thanks everyone for your kind words 

Time to mount the HAT L3SE's. I have contemplated mounting them in custom fiberglassed A-pillar pods. Instead, I've decided to mount them in the stock location and see how they sound. There's very little to lose by going this route (I can always go to pillars later). It may even have some advantages, namely better soundstage width. To quote Mark E talking about Andy Wehmeyer's MINI:



Mark Eldridge said:


> Andy's car is one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard using almost factory locations. He has spent a ton of time with the Harman processor to make it sound as good as it does. IT does some things like no other system I've heard, and other things that are average, and many in between. He didn't want to spend the time and money, not to mention he didn't want to tear up the Mini, to place the speakers other than in the doors. That's great, and I whole-heartedly agree. I wouldn't cut that car either.


I used some leftover 1/4" MDF from my L6SE adapter plates (you can still see the black stuff on the edges from the laser cutting process). I entered the dimensions of the stock speaker in CAD and printed them 1:1 and taped to the MDF. Then they were cut out with a jigsaw.









Passenger side









Driver's side - The L3SE on this side has a loose terminal and is measuring anywhere from 7 to 300 ohms with a multimeter. Rather than wasting time sending these back to Scott at Hybrid, I'll probably use a set of Dean's connectors wired directly to the tinsel leads and mounting tab. I don't really trust the spring clips anyway.


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## Neil_J

*Hatch sound deadening*

CCF









MLV - The rear seats fit, but just barely.









I will try to get the rear quarter panel sound deadening done tomorrow. I drove around with just the sound deadening above, and it was a LOT quieter (probably around 6dB improvement). This stuff has already payed for itself as far as I'm concerned.

Test fitting of the amps and subs (the far-right JL amp has been photoshopped in, as I only own 3 at the moment). The amps will be mounted to an amp rack consisting of a 1/4" thick wood panel. I'll be starting on that in the next few days.


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## necrophidious

astrochex said:


> Nice work!
> 
> I hope the stock HU does not prevent you from meeting your SQ dreams.


That was, unfortunately, the case with my MINI. I tried both the MS-8 and the Bit One, and neither yeilded very good results. Have you seen this thread? "http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/navigation-and-audio/206597-2007-double-din-install.html". I am in the process of doing the same thing, and swapping my Bit One for a P99RS. 

Great work so far. Love the MINI.


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## adamand

Subscribed! Nice work so far.


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## Neil_J

necrophidious said:


> That was, unfortunately, the case with my MINI. I tried both the MS-8 and the Bit One, and neither yeilded very good results. Have you seen this thread? "http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/navigation-and-audio/206597-2007-double-din-install.html". I am in the process of doing the same thing, and swapping my Bit One for a P99RS.
> 
> Great work so far. Love the MINI.


Thanks, and thanks again for selling me your MS-8. I might just end up adding a P99RS into my setup with that double-din install kit. I've still got a pioneer XM tuner laying around, and my last Pioneer deck had great iPod support. Thanks for the link.


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## ganesht

Neil_J said:


> That's kind of a mean thing to say, lol
> 
> The stock HU won't really prevent me from doing anything. I'll be wiring an Apple Airport Express under the seat, which will give me A2DP audio streaming from my iPhone and iPad directly into the JBL MS-8 aux input. I don't listen to CD's or FM radio, and XM/Sirius never sounded great to begin with. This should at least guarantee me a direct signal path where it counts (my iTunes collection)


how are you planning on powering the ae? iirc its wifi board is 5v and then rest is 3.3v; are you going to crack it open and just use voltage regulators? and are you planning on modding the ae at all to improve the sq or were you thinking of running an external dac? i really wish the ms8 had a digital input =/




Neil_J said:


>


Wow i never realized how small your trunks are!


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## quality_sound

It's funny, Neil, I was considering selling my BMs and trying a quad of the Alpines as well. Now I'm REALLY interested. 

As for your question on NAM, someone has indeed installed the Metra kit in a 2011 and it went as expected. No hiccups. I just need a clear rundown of the parts they used for the HU part and then I'll start on mine. I may just say screw it and run all new leads for the HU power, etc. I don't really want to lose the warning sounds but since no one has stepped up with a REAL harness that will let all that be kept, I'll have to live with it.


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## Neil_J

ganesht said:


> how are you planning on powering the ae? iirc its wifi board is 5v and then rest is 3.3v; are you going to crack it open and just use voltage regulators? and are you planning on modding the ae at all to improve the sq or were you thinking of running an external dac? i really wish the ms8 had a digital input =/


Yep. It's probably one of my only gadgets that I haven't taken apart yet. Should be a piece of cake to convert to DC. As for modifying the DAC.. not likely. I can't imagine it being that bad out of the box. As long as I don't get any clipping or other shenanigans, I'll be happy with it.



ganesht said:


> Wow i never realized how small your trunks are!


Brother, tell me about it :mean:


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## ikoolguy

wow great stuff! i'm loving the 500/3 xd amp LOL! the jbl ms-8 can be set up as an active crossover? good luck with your install!


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## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> Yep. It's probably one of my only gadgets that I haven't taken apart yet. Should be a piece of cake to convert to DC. As for modifying the DAC.. not likely. I can't imagine it being that bad out of the box. As long as I don't get any clipping or other shenanigans, I'll be happy with it.


Here some measurements of the older APE version.

Apple AirPort Express Wi-Fi Hub-D/A processor | Stereophile.com

There's also a site floating around that has a detailed mod procedure for converting the APE to DC, I can't find the link at the moment. 

I'm sure you can easily do it yourself without that help but it could provide some incite as to how to correctly crack it open and also what complications could arise. For instance, I've heard they fail due to over heating, dunno if thats due to the AC power supply or something that will remain in place when modded for the car, might be worth to attach a tiny fan into it _somehow_.


----------



## quietfly

I've been drooling over this entire thread... can't wait to see the results...


----------



## Neil_J

t3sn4f2 said:


> Here some measurements of the older APE version.
> 
> Apple AirPort Express Wi-Fi Hub-D/A processor | Stereophile.com
> 
> There's also a site floating around that has a detailed mod procedure for converting the APE to DC, I can't find the link at the moment.


Thanks for the link, the specs actually look pretty good. I found a link where a guy that did the DC conversion without hacking it up too bad.. kinda clever actually. Airport Express Surgery

Of course, if I go with the Metra head unit relocation kit, I can use a Pioneer P99RS with ipod functionality, and all of this will be moot. No need for the airport express at that point.


----------



## edouble101

Good job photoshop the amp in!


----------



## Neil_J

quietfly said:


> I've been drooling over this entire thread... can't wait to see the results...


Thank you, it should get really interesting when I start construction on the MDF enclosure in a few days/weeks. 

Here's a rough list of work remaining:

Design and fabricate L6SE speaker grills. Likely polished CNC'd aluminum and black honeycomb grill material
Install SDS deflex pads in the doors
Design and fabricate pods for the rear fill Tang Band 3" speakers to get them at ear-level
Install SLS 6" rear-fill speakers in stock 6x9 location using PVC adapters from PVC Speaker Adapters - CNC Machined - In Stock or Custom Made
Start construction on MDF enclosure as soon as Pete from PWK finishes the design
Fabricate amp rack, temporarily install amps. Plan epic wiring job.
Order parts for amp rack/enclosure quick-disconnect connector (more on this in a bit) and create wiring diagram. This will be awesome you guys, just wait.
Fabricate custom cables from the quick disconnect to the rest of the car. This will include MS-8 RCA cables, speaker wires, remote turnon lead, 12V power, and ground.
Wire everything on the enclosure/amp rack side.
Anodize L1 Pro R2 CNC aluminum tweeter pods black
Purchase P99RS and Metra mounting kit
Investigate center speaker/tweeter mounting locations
Add chrome and carbon fiber until I'm broke
Tune and tweak until happy
Consider designing/fabricating custom single-DIN assembly to go under P99RS, which replaces MS-8 remote and display, that gives knobs and switches for commonly-used functions. This is done by emulating the I2C protocol between the display and MS-8. I freakin' hate the MS-8 remote, and having to navigate menus for simple things.


----------



## quietfly

are you having the grills fabb'd by ponoko? 
Petey's designs ROCK, I can't wait till i have something worthy of his caliber to ask him to design.
What do you do for a living? your Modding and fabrication skills are definitely top notch... 
You made me wish i videoed my ride down the dragon's tail.... though i have no idea how you did it with next to no cars around....
i sent you a PM.....


----------



## cgm246

Neil_J said:


> Melbourne. If anyone else from Florida is up for a mini diyma get together, let me know...


fT. lAUDERDALE, NEEDING A HAND....


----------



## Neil_J

PM's replied to. For anyone with a MINI Cooper that wants to use my 6" door midbass adapter rings, here's the link to buy them at the Ponoko Store:

MINI Cooper 2007-2012 door 6" speaker adapter ring

No idea why their site categorized it as Jewelry  Maybe because the word 'ring' is in the title?


----------



## InjunV18

Things look to be going great so far with your install. I have an 11 Pepper White MCS and love it. 

Recently did an install in a friend's 09 Chili Red MC and used the stock midrange location for an Audible Physics AR3 wideband speaker, and an H-Audio Trinity in the midbass location. Fabbed a 6x9 to 6.5" adapter for the rear and a lot of filling and sealing and used JL 6w3's. Put a JL xd700/5 under the seat and used the active crossover on it for simple tuning. I am extremely impressed with the presence and impact of such a simple system, and love the detail and staging with the speakers in stock locations. I was planning on going crazy with two Zapco DC 1000.4's in my Mini, but that install has me thinking differently.

Just a few pics I snapped as we installed that day. Baffles are made from HDPE (cutting boards) with threaded inserts and stainless socket head caps. I rarely ever put MDF in a door anymore.


----------



## quality_sound

I've been tempted to do the same thing with the 6W3 or an 8" midbass driver. Looks great!


----------



## Angrywhopper

This is awesome..can't wait for more updates!


----------



## InjunV18

quality_sound said:


> I've been tempted to do the same thing with the 6W3 or an 8" midbass driver. Looks great!


I first attempted to use 8w3 as there is a great deal of airspace behind the rear 6x9 location. However, the opening is in a very inconvenient location and you would have a hard time moving up, right, left or down. The plastic trim panel makes it very difficult to move forward. You can cut but on one side the cut would go through a factory weld and I didn't want to diminish any structural integrity. Plus, he was very hesitant about cutting.

The only modifying to the original car we did was to alter the molex to get two 14/2 speaker wires into the door. It's not that hard to get 4 full unmolested speaker wires into the door, but it does take some patience.


----------



## MaxPowers

Out of curiosity, did you tap into the speaker output wires at the x13812 just to minimize connections between headunit and ms-8? or was it some other reason


----------



## Neil_J

MaxPowers said:


> Out of curiosity, did you tap into the speaker output wires at the x13812 just to minimize connections between headunit and ms-8? or was it some other reason


My reasoning was, why not grab the signals as close to the source as possible? Assuming the MS-8 line-level inputs are high impedance, this would have the tendency of picking up noise from the CAN bus and other signals that are tied into the bundle. This turned out to be pretty moot, since the signals looks like crap coming out of the head unit. I think it will be P99RS time very soon


----------



## MaxPowers

Thats what I thought. I am thinking of doing what t3sn4f2 did and use the outputs on the Pure i-20, Im sure its better than the line level inputs from the deck. I know aftermarket deck is the best bet but I really want to avoid that.


----------



## GLN305

Any updates? Looking forward to seeing more.


----------



## Neil_J

GLN305 said:


> Any updates? Looking forward to seeing more.


The subwoofer enclosure and amp rack will probably start coming together sometime around the end of December. I haven't heard from Petey in several weeks, I'm not sure how far down in the queue I am.. I can't even begin on box construction until he sends me the plans. And I can't begin the amp rack until the box is complete and installed. Wiring won't begin until after the amp rack is complete. On the good side, it will give me some time to work on my rear speaker pods, custom grills, and finish up the sound deadening. 

Also I have an epic wiring job in the works, but the important pieces from my super-secret supplier are on backorder for two weeks. I don't want to say too much, other than it has likely never been done before, at least on diyma


----------



## quality_sound

InjunV18 said:


> I first attempted to use 8w3 as there is a great deal of airspace behind the rear 6x9 location. However, the opening is in a very inconvenient location and you would have a hard time moving up, right, left or down. The plastic trim panel makes it very difficult to move forward. You can cut but on one side the cut would go through a factory weld and I didn't want to diminish any structural integrity. Plus, he was very hesitant about cutting.
> 
> The only modifying to the original car we did was to alter the molex to get two 14/2 speaker wires into the door. It's not that hard to get 4 full unmolested speaker wires into the door, but it does take some patience.


Can you provide more info or pics on this? I've gone through the Molex on all of my VWs and while not really _hard_ per se, it was time consuming. I will also need 2 runs into each door, though probably nothing larger than a 16 AWG.


----------



## GLN305

quality_sound said:


> Can you provide more info or pics on this? I've gone through the Molex on all of my VWs and while not really _hard_ per se, it was time consuming. I will also need 2 runs into each door, though probably nothing larger than a 16 AWG.


The Molex on the Mini is pretty well occupied and no places to drill. I pulled mine apart and it doesn't look fun. I am going to research and find the correct pins to add to the connector and run the that way, should make for a clean install.


----------



## Joehs

This thing is wicked! Great work!


----------



## quality_sound

GLN305 said:


> The Molex on the Mini is pretty well occupied and no places to drill. I pulled mine apart and it doesn't look fun. I am going to research and find the correct pins to add to the connector and run the that way, should make for a clean install.


I thought I read about someone on NAM doing that but he didn't post any part numbers or anything. If you go that route the part numbers would be much appreciated.


----------



## Rudeboy

Neil_J said:


>


Very nice work - perfect mad scientist photo


----------



## slade1274

quality_sound said:


> Can you provide more info or pics on this? I've gone through the Molex on all of my VWs and while not really _hard_ per se, it was time consuming. I will also need 2 runs into each door, though probably nothing larger than a 16 AWG.


You can actually go around the connector and stay within the seal. I saw Bing do it in one of his builds but can't seem to track it down. I was able to do it with a Clubman build I did.... I'm sure two sets will be doable but tight. I used the stock wires for one driver and a new set for the other.

There is a place to drill out as I did that with my 135 (same connector as the clubman), but it was way more of a pain than just running around the connector.

Bing's pic:









How I drilled:


----------



## GLN305

Thanks for posting that, I think I will go that route. I was planning on finding pins for the empty spots, but I would rather not cut the wire.



slade1274 said:


> You can actually go around the connector and stay within the seal. I saw Bing do it in one of his builds but can't seem to track it down. I was able to do it with a Clubman build I did.... I'm sure two sets will be doable but tight. I used the stock wires for one driver and a new set for the other.
> 
> There is a place to drill out as I did that with my 135 (same connector as the clubman), but it was way more of a pain than just running around the connector.
> 
> Bing's pic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How I drilled:


----------



## Neil_J

Here's the L6SE grill design I came up with. I originally designed and priced out a set of 100% billet machined aluminum L6SE grills, but they were simply too expensive to have them fabricated. I decided instead to go with a more clever design:


The ring is MDF, which will be fabricated by my local B&M audio shop, Explicit Customs in Melbourne. I don't own a router (or plan on buying one), so I'm unable to make them myself. Each ring will be prepped and painted before final assembly.
The Hybrid logo will be machined by Front Panel Express for $36 each (that also includes the raw aluminum plate material). The pair will be anodized natural/silver by a local plating shop. FPE offers to machine from anodized plate, but they anodize first and then cut, which means the cutouts will be bare aluminum. Therefore my only option is to have them anodized after delivery.
A 36" x 40" piece of hexagonal mesh was ordered from McMaster Carr for $41.54. McMaster carries aluminum and steel; I opted for the steel since it is easier to paint (aluminum should be alodined before painting, whereas steel is much more forgiving). Most likely painted or powder-coated gloss black. I should have enough left over to stealth-cover my four SWR-843D's, and will probably try to sell the rest on the diyma classifieds.

Opinions? Comments?


----------



## Neil_J

Holy crap, Pete from PWK just e-mailed me with the final subwoofer box design  

This means that I can start with box construction as early as this Monday


----------



## trojan fan

What type of enclosure are you going with for the subs?


----------



## Neil_J

trojan fan said:


> What type of enclosure are you going with for the subs?


Rudimentary sealed enclosure, due to space limitations. The MINI cargo area is small and I'm unable to remove the rear seats and still compete in the Rookie class of any sanctioned event that I'm aware of. Eventually, I would like to go with something more elaborate, which may take up the entire space behind the front seats to the rear hatch.


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> Rudimentary sealed enclosure, due to space limitations. The MINI cargo area is small and I'm unable to remove the rear seats and still compete in the Rookie class of any sanctioned event that I'm aware of. Eventually, I would like to go with something more elaborate, which may take up the entire space behind the front seats to the rear hatch.


Sorry to ask but you needed Pete to design you a sealed enclosure? 

Kelvin


----------



## Neil_J

subwoofery said:


> Sorry to ask but you needed Pete to design you a sealed enclosure?


No, I needed him to provide me with a target response curve at the driver's side headrest of my car given a very specific set of requirements. A sealed enclosure happened to fit the requirements quite nicely. If he responded with a 4th-order bandpass or tapped horn configuration, that would have been fine too. I'm not sure what you're getting at, should I have trusted the local B&M audio shop guy or myself to design the best enclosure possible for these requirements? I've been reading DIYMA daily for 8 months now, but that doesn't exactly make me an expert. I only know enough to get myself into trouble; I come to diyma and people like Pete to get me out.


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> No, I needed him to provide me with a target response curve at the driver's side headrest of my car given a very specific set of requirements. A sealed enclosure happened to fit the requirements quite nicely. If he responded with a 4th-order bandpass or tapped horn configuration, that would have been fine too. I'm not sure what you're getting at, should I have trusted the local B&M audio shop guy or myself to design the best enclosure possible for these requirements? I've been reading DIYMA daily for 8 months now, but that doesn't exactly make me an expert. I only know enough to get myself into trouble; I come to diyma and people like Pete to get me out.


Ohh ok... got it  

Kelvin


----------



## baron_of_bass

beautiful build, love the car.


----------



## funkalicious

Well thought out and executed. Attention to detail is top notch. Keep up the great work!


----------



## bmwproboi05

I also ran my speaker cable around the molex for the front doors.











Here is my build

Head unit in secret compartment - North American Motoring


on another note good work!


----------



## Neil_J

Neil_J said:


> Here's the L6SE grill design I came up with. I originally designed and priced out a set of 100% billet machined aluminum L6SE grills, but they were simply too expensive to have them fabricated. I decided instead to go with a more clever design:
> 
> 
> The ring is MDF, which will be fabricated by my local B&M audio shop, Explicit Customs in Melbourne. I don't own a router (or plan on buying one), so I'm unable to make them myself. Each ring will be prepped and painted before final assembly.
> The Hybrid logo will be machined by Front Panel Express for $36 each (that also includes the raw aluminum plate material). The pair will be anodized natural/silver by a local plating shop. FPE offers to machine from anodized plate, but they anodize first and then cut, which means the cutouts will be bare aluminum. Therefore my only option is to have them anodized after delivery.
> A 36" x 40" piece of hexagonal mesh was ordered from McMaster Carr for $41.54. McMaster carries aluminum and steel; I opted for the steel since it is easier to paint (aluminum should be alodined before painting, whereas steel is much more forgiving). Most likely painted or powder-coated gloss black. I should have enough left over to stealth-cover my four SWR-843D's, and will probably try to sell the rest on the diyma classifieds.


You guys, I'm looking for comments on the L6SE grills I designed :deal2:

Are they stupid? Do they fit with the current theme of the install? Is there a better way to have them fabricated?


----------



## bmwproboi05

They look good! 

It goes well with the hybrids for sure. Might want to paint that silver part bronz tho. mayb make the same grille for the mids


----------



## Neil_J

bmwproboi05 said:


> mayb make the same grille for the mids


Thanks for the comments

I will definitely get the HAT logo machined for the mids if the ones above come out okay. They should only be $15-20 each. Likely will use the same hexagonal mesh behind them... That should really show off the L3SE phase plugs 

Oh, and no bronze for me.. My install theme is chrome, carbon fiber, gloss black, and Chili Red  I would have loved to have a custom chrome ring around the L6 grills but that's out of my budget (for now)


----------



## BlackFx4InTn

The grill looks very nice. Can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## taibanl

You can tun 12 ga through the door grommet on the underaide of the oem connector. Fits right in a little notch


----------



## InjunV18

quality_sound said:


> Can you provide more info or pics on this? I've gone through the Molex on all of my VWs and while not really _hard_ per se, it was time consuming. I will also need 2 runs into each door, though probably nothing larger than a 16 AWG.





bmwproboi05 said:


> I also ran my speaker cable around the molex for the front doors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my build
> 
> Head unit in secret compartment - North American Motoring
> 
> 
> on another note good work!



Ok, so at the top of the Molex is a "button" that slides to release the plug. On my model, there was nothing under this button except for what looked like a piece of plastic. I just trimmed that plastic piece off very carefully, sanded it smooth and two 14/2 wires slid right under the slide and did not interfere with any connections. Snaking everything in place and locking everything down was quite strenuous but in my opinion it was well worth it. I will be doing the same thing in my Mini and will take more pictures of the process. I'm too broke to start though, so it may be a few months. :laugh:


----------



## taibanl

I initially was going to try the top but then i found the notch on the bottom. You can squeeze the molex bit up a bit higher and make room

No idea what the body shop did when they ha to take my doors off though!


----------



## mfenske

This thread is filled with so much nerdy goodness I can't wait for more. Amazing layout and fab skills at work here. Keep it up!

Mark


----------



## Neil_J

I have been making daily progress on this build, but I want to hold off until at least early January and post one big update. Hope you guys don't get bored in the meantime.


----------



## InjunV18

My only suggestion on your grills is:

Use ABS plastic, or something similar (LDPE, HDPE, Acetal) to make your rings instead of MDF. It will give a better finished look. If you must go with MDF, wrap it in a similarly grained/textured look as the door panel, or in carbon fiber to match the rings in the doors. If you are going to paint, sand the MDF with minimum 220 grit to effectively close the pores so it doesn't just soak up the paint and look splotchy.


----------



## InjunV18

Here's a link to a site that sells it pretty reasonably. You can also opt for acetal, HDPE, or King Starboard. These all are black throughout, and plastic so they wouldn't scratch and show like MDF. They also don't swell and are impervious to water damage. Just a thought. 

McMaster is usually much higher for materials like this due to small quantities and shipping.


----------



## Neil_J

I'm very familiar with HDPE, it's a wonderful material to work with, one of my all-time favorites. The idea of using MDF was that having my local shop make them with a router and jig would be much cheaper than having an aluminum (or other material) CNC machined. Even though HDPE is routable, it would still be harder to get a smooth finish than sanding, sealing, priming, and painting the MDF rings would be. Probably more work on my side, but that's ok when cost of labor is free.


----------



## CLK63DK

how come you dosent use a MOST interface to get a clean signal?

Nice car btw...


----------



## InjunV18

Neil_J said:


> I'm very familiar with HDPE, it's a wonderful material to work with, one of my all-time favorites. The idea of using MDF was that having my local shop make them with a router and jig would be much cheaper than having an aluminum (or other material) CNC machined. Even though HDPE is routable, it would still be harder to get a smooth finish than sanding, sealing, priming, and painting the MDF rings would be. Probably more work on my side, but that's ok when cost of labor is free.


I mean when you're putting HAT SE, 4 JL amps and 4 Alpine subs in a Mini does the small cost difference between MDF rings and Aluminum rings matter in the long run. You spent much more on the tweeter mounts than rings would cost and then you'd match.... plus you could have it made from 1 piece. Logo and ring together... and it would be SICK!

Of course, that's just my opinion and it seems that whatever you do, you will do a quality job, which is what matters.



CLK63DK said:


> how come you dosent use a MOST interface to get a clean signal?
> 
> Nice car btw...


While the Mini is produced by BMW, I don't think it uses the same audio components does it? I was under the impression we don't have the "luxury" of MOST in a Mini. The signal is balanced, unfortunately the rear channels are cut significantly below 100 hz. There's some RTA data on NorthAmericanMotoring (mini forum) showing the signal that is built in to the HU. You would be better served with processing or a OEM interface device like the Cleansweep. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong though, as I would love to know a different method for connecting to the stock head. I don't want to use an aftermarket one as the OEM usability is very good IMO.


----------



## Neil_J

InjunV18 said:


> I mean when you're putting HAT SE, 4 JL amps and 4 Alpine subs in a Mini does the small cost difference between MDF rings and Aluminum rings matter in the long run. You spent much more on the tweeter mounts than rings would cost and then you'd match.... plus you could have it made from 1 piece. Logo and ring together... and it would be SICK!


I agree, a single-piece CNC grill would be sick... It would also cost $700-1000 to have machined. A set of MDF rings OTOH, plus the aforementioned FPE logo pieces, will be $150, tops. I am keeping a set of books on this build/install, and believe me, things are adding up QUICK. 

I do like your idea of wrapping the MDF rings with carbon fiber. That is a damn good idea, I will go that way for sure. Genuine CF by roguese7ens on the rings, then the silver anodized HAT logo, then gloss black hexagonal mesh from McMaster Carr. Damn, I can't wait till they come together


----------



## CLK63DK

*Re: Head unit to MS-8 wiring*

Hi,

In our 2008 mini cooper s, there is a full blown MOST BUS in, so I would expect that you also can find it. eg. in the HU quadlock connector - it is the 2 stiff fiber cables running to 2 of the 4 round holes.

these you also use for a dension gateway500 MOST or you tap in in right side footwell.

Due to cost, I "had to" choose the same solution as you, but with the total system cost in mind, I think the extra $$ for a Most interface should be possible to find 

Keep up the good work!






Neil_J said:


> I chose to tap into the speaker output wires directly from the X13812 connector at the back of the head unit (If you're not comfortable taking your dash apart, you can get to these from the X9331 connector that's located in the driver's side footwell area instead). I routed the following wires to the MS-8 (I believe this should work for both Hifi and non-Hifi 2007-present models):
> 
> GE/BR (yellow with brown stripe) X13812 pin 6 (or X9331 pin 3) : Right +
> GW/SW (yellow with black stripe) X13812 pin 2 (or X9331 pin 4) : Right -
> SW/VI (black with violet stripe) X13812 pin 7 (or X9331 pin 5) : Left +
> SW/RT (black with red stripe) X13812 pin 3 (or X9331 pin 6) : Left -
> Always erring on the side of overkill, I used Canare Star Quad cable from the head unit to the MS-8 Hi Level input. Whenever I am working on low-voltage high-input impedance analog lines, whether it be aircraft wiring, automotive, or home audio hifi, I always tie the shield to chassis ground on the transmitting side only. This has the benefit of creating a Faraday cage around your audio signals, without creating a ground loop. You can see in the second picture that I tied the shield to the radio's ground wire (which however is tied directly to chassis ground). This isn't ideal but is still better than leaving it unconnected.
> 
> For the amp turnon lead, there are a few choices. If your amp is mounted in the trunk, you can simply splice into the trunk cigarette lighter +12v switched power. The only disadvantage to this is that this power source is only switched on when you push the engine start button. The second choice is to tap into the radio's actual remote turnon lead, which switches on as soon as the remote key is inserted (this is important if your mids and highs are amp-powered, if you want to hear the door chime before the engine starts). This signal can be accessed from two places: The X13812 connector at the back of the head unit (pin 13, SW/black wire), or at the X15 connector in the driver side footwell (pin 1, SW/black on the female side of the connector, and pin 1, WS/white on the male side)
> 
> The bundle was wrapped in fleece tape, and then fed down towards the center console, underneath the carpet, to the MS-8 under the passenger seat.


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> I'm very familiar with HDPE, it's a wonderful material to work with, one of my all-time favorites. The idea of using MDF was that having my local shop make them with a router and jig would be much cheaper than having an aluminum (or other material) CNC machined. Even though HDPE is routable, it would still be harder to get a smooth finish than sanding, sealing, priming, and painting the MDF rings would be. Probably more work on my side, but that's ok when cost of labor is free.


What about using the MDF piece as a template for an aluminum piece. It's plenty soft to be routered and it would be a lot less expensive than having it CNC'd.


----------



## rescueguy

Looks nice.


----------



## n_olympios

Hate the stock interior looks, love the engine and handling on those things. Isn't the EP6DTS great? 

Also, you're definitely on the right track regarding the audio!


----------



## Bayonet

props on the progress!...can't wait to see all that equipment back there


----------



## InjunV18

Neil_J said:


> I agree, a single-piece CNC grill would be sick... It would also cost $700-1000 to have machined. A set of MDF rings OTOH, plus the aforementioned FPE logo pieces, will be $150, tops. I am keeping a set of books on this build/install, and believe me, things are adding up QUICK.
> 
> I do like your idea of wrapping the MDF rings with carbon fiber. That is a damn good idea, I will go that way for sure. Genuine CF by roguese7ens on the rings, then the silver anodized HAT logo, then gloss black hexagonal mesh from McMaster Carr. Damn, I can't wait till they come together


I do quite a bit of work with machine shops around here, and I know, it could be done for significantly less than $700. Even if it had to be a 2 piece. But, the CF over MDF will be good as well. I am tempted to get a quote for you from one of my shops, just for the info. If you want to send me a pdf of your dimensioned ring or even the dwg I can pass it along.


----------



## Neil_J

InjunV18 said:


> I do quite a bit of work with machine shops around here, and I know, it could be done for significantly less than $700. Even if it had to be a 2 piece. But, the CF over MDF will be good as well. I am tempted to get a quote for you from one of my shops, just for the info. If you want to send me a pdf of your dimensioned ring or even the dwg I can pass it along.


I work and live near the space center in Florida, and as you can imagine the machine shops do some great work, but their prices are very high. Most will not even talk to you without a business name 

I'll send you a PM tonight hopefully.


----------



## InjunV18

Without a doubt it's location dependent. NASA vs Polkton


----------



## Neil_J

*Box showed up today*









The box showed up today. Point three cubes per sub, constructed from 3/4" MDF. The more I look at how teeny-tiny it is, I worry about how much low-end extension there will be, even with the ridiculous amounts of cabin gain I get for free. I guess I'll know soon enough...

The shots below are test-fit only, I'm still waiting on my 10-32 hurricane nuts and other assorted hardware from McMaster Carr. 









Don't mind how dirty everything is, I'll clean it later, I swear!









Shot with "fake amp rack" and three out of four of the JL amps. The real amp rack will be made out of 1/4" plexi with the bottom painted black, sandwiched to 1/4" MDF and maybe some 6063 1/4" x 1/8" L-brackets for rigidity. The whole thing will hang a few inches over the sub enclosure, and will be removable for service (there will be a 72-pin mixed-signal quick disconnect on the left, and simple binding posts to the speakers). There will be a flush-mount panel made to go over the sub enclosure with hexagonal mesh covering the speaker cutouts, and carbon-fiber wrapped rings for each speaker. And some orange/amber LED lighting (with a touch of blue for a warm/cool look) at strategic spots, all of which are controlled via microprocessor. Did I mention the JL RLC bus and remote turn-on for each amp will also be interfaced to the microprocessor, all controllable via a half-duplex RS-485 bus from the front console? 

All of the amp wiring will go through holes in the rack like all those old-school builds did back in the day


----------



## quietfly

the mock up looks really nice


----------



## quality_sound

I thought everything was gonna be on one plane? 

On another note, running wires into the doors isn't that bad...until you go to put it back together and find out your JL 16 gauge cable jackets are just a hair too thick to work... ugh. Oh well. I had some other 16-gauge I used from the kicks into the doors.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> I thought everything was gonna be on one plane?


That was the plan, but I ran out of room. Have you seen those MINI Countryman "cram it in the boot" commercials? Yea, it was like that, more or less.






Had I gotten a Countryman instead (or any other $!#%@ car for that matter), I'd probably be done by now, for less money, and end up with a lower frequency response. Oh well.. those those things are ugly as sin, even if they do offer all-wheel drive.


----------



## Neil_J

*More sound deadening*

This is how I spent my Christmas vacation:









Stock deadening removal. Very easy with a heat gun, gasket scraper, and can of Red Bull. 









Some would say this step is unnecessary, but I have the time, energy, and cash to replace it with real CLD material, so why not?









Before









After









I covered the entire floorboard with SecondSkin Damplifier Pro. Again, some would say this is pure overkill. Well it is, what are you gonna do about it?? 


















I'll hopefully start tackling the firewall sometime in April (this will require removing the entire dash)









Time for another order of CCF, this was my last piece


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I just have to see how this turns out.... 

Great Job....


----------



## Neil_J

*Amp rack 3d model*









I was playing around with a 3d model of my amp rack... I think it's too big. Those Rean NYS373 connectors stick out a bit too much for my tastes. It ends up being 37.5" x 10", *which may end up turning my sealed enclosure into a fourth-order bandpass enclosure, when placed above the sealed box?* (The only area left between the subs and the cabin would be a 1 cubic foot space, separated from the cabin by a 37" x 5" quasi-slotted "port"). I've played with WinISD and it seems to give me this huge 15 dB boost at 113 Hz, but that frequency gets attenuated by my lowpass filter, so it shouldn't matter in the end... I think.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

To get the amps from on top of the enclosure. What if you placed them on the front of the enclosure between the back seat and the enclosure? What about on the side of the rear cargo? Or could you place them under the rear sear. You might need to raise the seat just a bit, but with the proper clearance, you could get those amps out the way....


----------



## subwoofery

1 in the passenger's kick panel (under the carpet) 
2 under each front seats 
1 in the left side trunk panel 
DONE and you get to keep your small trunk  

Kelvin 

PS: obviously the one in the trunk will be for the subs


----------



## Neil_J

subwoofery said:


> 1 in the passenger's kick panel (under the carpet)
> 2 under each front seats
> 1 in the left side trunk panel
> DONE and you get to keep your small trunk
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: obviously the one in the trunk will be for the subs


Each of my four amps has a subwoofer channel that will be wired for 2 ohms. No dedicated subwoofer amp unfortunately. I already have my JBL MS-8 under the passenger seat. The left side hatch panel is going to hold a rather unique 72-pin mixed signal quick disconnect, and the right hatch panel is going to house the fusing and distribution under a plexiglass panel. And as for the passenger kick... Well that's original, I never thought of that  

This car is simply too small for all the stuff I'm putting into it (not that I'm not up to the challenge). The guy at my local brick & mortar shop didn't want to touch my subwoofer box design at first. He argued with me for about 20 minutes that it would sound like **** since the sealed F3 was 53 Hz. I had to convince him that I wouldn't try to return the box if I had any problems with it. I'm not really convinced at this point either.. I'm holding my judgement until I hear it.. worse case is that I'm out $185 for the fabrication.


----------



## Neil_J

trojan fan said:


> IMO...If this was my car I would of went with a pair of the 8's in a ported enclosure....which also would open some more room for the amps....53 Hz ouch!...the ms-8 might help you out a little


If they sound like ****, I'm going for broke with a pair of 15's, screw trunk space or rear seating......


----------



## Neil_J

*The floor section of the sound deadening is now complete! I drove it for a few miles and I'm still shocked at how much the noise is reduced!* I still need to do the firewall, upper front quarter panels, rear quarter panels, hatch, and roof, but in the meantime I can be certain that the investment in time and money will be well worth it.

Thank you Don for all the help and your wonderful holy trinity of sound deadening materials! (yes I ended up going with SecondSkin Damplifier Pro instead of Don's CLD tiles, but only because I had a box or two from a previous install)









Passenger side kick panel, with relay/fusebox removed, and CLD tiles installed









I used HH-66 cement to attach the CCF. Much simpler than Don's velcro approach, and only slightly more permanent.









Fisheye view of the completed closed-cell foam layer









Start of the mass-loaded vinyl layer. I was certain this would be the hardest part, but it turned out to be the easiest. It's really thick and only bends in one direction (twss?:laugh. I had all the pieces pre-cut and cleaned with isopropyl alcohol from measurements I'd taken earlier. They were secured in place with HH-66 cement.









I didn't get a shot of the completed MLV covering the whole floor... When I get around to taking a shot of it, I'll likely replace the image above with it.









Carefully liposculpting the foam from the carpet backside, to make room for the sound deadening layers that were added









Re-installing the carpet. It fit but just barely... tighter than a clam with lockjaw. I'll need to do more carpet foam shaving the next time it's out.



EDIT: Almost forgot... If you own a MINI and are playing along at home.. *Unless you want an airbag to go off in your face, make 100% certain that you've disconnected your negative battery terminal and secure it (the terminal) so that it doesn't spring back and make contact again.* There are several electronic modules that need to be removed when deadening the floor area. Here are some precautions you will need to take:


*Airbag module (aka MRS Control Module)*: located in center console - Extreme caution - Contains accelerometers. If you unscrew it and move it around without disconnecting your battery, your airbag could deploy. 
*DSC acceleration sensor*: located under passenger seat - Contains yaw sensors for traction control (which is on by default on the MINI). You can remove it without disconnecting the battery as long as you re-attach it before inserting the key-fob. If you don't, you'll get a yellow idiot light on the dashboard and code that will need to be reset. Make sure you directly mount it to the metal, rather than sandwich with foam and/or vinyl deadening material. It is vibration sensitive and can cause weird problems if it's not mounted as it came from the factory.
*Driver's seat*: Contains airbag and other sensors. You can remove the seat without disconnecting the battery as long as you re-connect it before inserting the keyfob. If you forget, you will get an idiot light and diagnostic code that a MINI dealership will have to reset (not resettable from a ScanGauge II or other OBD II code reader)
*Passenger's seat*: Same as above
*Driver's side footwell module (also known as the FRM)*: You can remove without disconnecting the battery as long as you re-attach it before inserting the key-fob. It controls your lights and stuff. I haven't found out yet what happens if you forget to plug it in.
*Passenger's side junction box and fuse panel*: You can remove without disconnecting the battery as long as you re-attach it before inserting the key-fob. This distributes power and other stuff to various systems in your car. Make sure you re-connect all of the connectors, it's kind of easy to forget one. There are two coaxial connectors in the vicinity that are for your AM/FM radio and XM radio, they can stay unconnected without worrying about codes.
*"Sport" button and traction control button*: Not needed! Simply remove and drive without it. All switches are open-collector with pullup resistors, meaning the car won't even know if the connector is unplugged.
*X9331 connector*: Not necessary to unplug while doing the deadening, but is a popular spot to splice into the speaker wiring. I left it unconnected one time and the car wouldn't start. No codes or anything though.


----------



## Rudeboy

Neil_J said:


> Thank you Don for all the help and your wonderful holy trinity of sound deadening materials


My pleasure! Looks great. I'm a little concerned about using HH-66 to secure the CCF to the Damplifier or sheet metal? Unless the other surface has vinyl content, it's not going to hold. Probably not a big deal since the carpet and trim should hold everything in place, but HH-66 only works when both sides being bonded are vinyl or at least have vinyl in them.


----------



## Neil_J

Rudeboy said:


> My pleasure! Looks great. I'm a little concerned about using HH-66 to secure the CCF to the Damplifier or sheet metal? Unless the other surface has vinyl content, it's not going to hold. Probably not a big deal since the carpet and trim should hold everything in place, but HH-66 only works when both sides being bonded are vinyl or at least have vinyl in them.


That's not what your website says?
Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information



SoundDeadenerShowdown - Products -HH-66 Vinyl Cement said:


> You can bond the CCF to the MLV using HH-66 and then bond the combined materials to the car using either HH-66 or V&S 1081 Spray.


But like you say, probably not a big deal due to gravity and the molded carpet holding it in place.


----------



## Rudeboy

Neil_J said:


> That's not what your website says?
> Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information
> 
> 
> 
> But like you say, probably not a big deal due to gravity and the molded carpet holding it in place.


Damn, that's terrible - never should have said that. Don't remember writing that but I obviously did. Sorry about that. Absolutely need to review all of that content. I guess I've come to rely too much on the installation instructions I send with the quote that includes this in the General Notes:



> HH-66 is a contact adhesive that will only bond materials with vinyl content. That means MLV to MLV, CCF (like the material I sell with vinyl content) to CCF and MLV to CCF. You need to coat both surfaces and let them dry until just tacky, 3-5 minutes. Press the two parts together. The bond is more than strong enough to work with immediately. It will achieve its full strength after a few hours.In most cases you won't need to coat the entire surface - tacking in a few spots is usually sufficient.


Again, sorry about that. I'm also going to be eliminating the V&S 1081 as a product since I'm so strongly opposed to gluing anything to the vehicle that doesn't absolutely need to be glued.


----------



## Neil_J

Rudeboy said:


> Damn, that's terrible - never should have said that. Don't remember writing that but I obviously did. Sorry about that. Absolutely need to review all of that content. I guess I've come to rely too much on the installation instructions I send with the quote that includes this in the General Notes:
> 
> 
> Again, sorry about that. I'm also going to be eliminating the V&S 1081 as a product since I'm so strongly opposed to gluing anything to the vehicle that doesn't absolutely need to be glued.


I've stubbornly ignored several pieces of advise from diyma and your site.. I covered my whole damn floor with CLD tiles when 20% would have been enough. Maybe one day I'll learn to follow instructions especially the ones that are :dead_horse: :laugh:


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I agree with your removal of the stock deadening, the new deadening in my view sticks to the metal better and does a better job that way.


----------



## Rudeboy

Neil_J said:


> I've stubbornly ignored several pieces of advise from diyma and your site.. I covered my whole damn floor with CLD tiles when 20% would have been enough. Maybe one day I'll learn to follow instructions especially the ones that are :dead_horse: :laugh:


"CLD Tile" is a proprietary name 
It really won't make a difference in this application. All attaching the CCF and MLV to the car gets you in this situation is time to assemble all of the pieces. You probably didn't try this, but one everything is assembled and the seams are sealed up you could pull it all out of the car, drop it on the ground and it will retain its shape. It would be a problem in the doors, but not there.

It's actually a good thing that the bond won't be permanent. My reason for using Velcro is both to help when installing - you can remove the pieces and adjust registration and because it makes things much easier if you need to get under or behind the barriers layers. Could be to repair something, run wires or do sheet metal repairs.


----------



## Rudeboy

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I agree with your removal of the stock deadening, the new deadening in my view sticks to the metal better and does a better job that way.


It also provides better corrosion resistance.


----------



## Neil_J

Rudeboy said:


> You probably didn't try this, but one everything is assembled and the seams are sealed up you could pull it all out of the car, drop it on the ground and it will retain its shape. It would be a problem in the doors, but not there.


I haven't sealed up all the MLV seams (yet). Had to put the carpeting back in for a hot date in a few days, I'd rather not explain what the hell I'm doing to my brand new car (I've heard of marriages broken over this sort of thing, in the diyma off-topic section). Anyway there's no way I could seal it with strips of MLV, my carpet barely fits as-is. My choices are to either seal it with strips of something paper-thin, or leave it as-is, seams unsealed. Any suggestions?



Rudeboy said:


> It's actually a good thing that the bond won't be permanent. My reason for using Velcro is both to help when installing - you can remove the pieces and adjust registration and because it makes things much easier if you need to get under or behind the barriers layers. Could be to repair something, run wires or do sheet metal repairs.


Yep, I'm 100% okay with that actually... it kinda worked out. It held the stuff in place just long enough for me to reassemble everything. I did try the velcro on my driver's side rear 1/4 panel. Not sure which method I'll use on the rear passenger side when I get to that in a few weeks...


----------



## Rudeboy

Neil_J said:


> I haven't sealed up all the MLV seams (yet). Had to put the carpeting back in for a hot date in a few days, I'd rather not explain what the hell I'm doing to my brand new car (I've heard of marriages broken over this sort of thing, in the diyma off-topic section). Anyway there's no way I could seal it with strips of MLV, my carpet barely fits as-is. My choices are to either seal it with strips of something paper-thin, or leave it as-is, seams unsealed. Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> Yep, I'm 100% okay with that actually... it kinda worked out. It held the stuff in place just long enough for me to reassemble everything. I did try the velcro on my driver's side rear 1/4 panel. Not sure which method I'll use on the rear passenger side when I get to that in a few weeks...


Been there with the new car ripped apart scenario. Much better to confess after it's all back together.

Are you really sure that adding 1/8" to the seams will make the difference between the carpet fitting and not? The only place I've encountered a problem like that was with a Porsche that had an incredibly complicated floor for structural rigidity. If it's more a problem of the 2" strips showing through, you can cut them at an angle so the transition is gradual.

If there really isn't any way to overlap seams or tape them with MLV strips, lead tape will seal them acoustically with very little added thickness. The only problem is that it has very low tensile strength so you can't use it hold the MLV to shape.


----------



## Neil_J

Rudeboy said:


> Been there with the new car ripped apart scenario. Much better to confess after it's all back together.
> 
> Are you really sure that adding 1/8" to the seams will make the difference between the carpet fitting and not? The only place I've encountered a problem like that was with a Porsche that had an incredibly complicated floor for structural rigidity. If it's more a problem of the 2" strips showing through, you can cut them at an angle so the transition is gradual.
> 
> If there really isn't any way to overlap seams or tape them with MLV strips, lead tape will seal them acoustically with very little added thickness. The only problem is that it has very low tensile strength so you can't use it hold the MLV to shape.


Yea, it's pretty bad already. There is a dead-pedal to the left of the clutch that's molded into the carpet. I've cut out almost all the molded carpet foam and it's still sticking out to the right far enough to interfere with shifting gears. Also, I'm almost unable to slide the driver's and passenger's seat forwards and backwards, as the transmission hump / center console is too wide now, and rubs on the seatbelt mechanism. $%^#@ German cars and ther tight tolerances. I'm going to cut out the remaining bits of foam the next time the carpet's out, but I can already say with certainty that another 1/8" strip of material would make re-installing the carpet impossible.

Lead tape it is then  Health risks be damned. I work with lead and other heavy metals daily at work, they're not so bad if you take precautions. Thanks again Don, I wouldn't have made it this far without your help.


----------



## derickveliz

Neil_J said:


> Thanks again Don, I wouldn't have made it this far without your help.


*Way to go Don, *I still remember our long phone conversations about MLV, CCF, and CLD Tiles! Thanks for sharing all your knowledge!

Derick.


----------



## quality_sound

Thanks for the awesome pics Neil! I'm sure there are some small differences since I have an R55, but seeing your floor apart assured me I can fit both of my amps (HD900/5 and HD600/4) and a processor (probably Alpine H800), along with the power distribution, under the front seats since like you, I don't believe I have any modules under the driver's side. Now I just need the time to take the entire interior apart...and some warmer weather. lol 

Looks awesome! Keep up the great work!


----------



## Neil_J

derickveliz said:


> *Way to go Don, *I still remember our long phone conversations about MLV, CCF, and CLD Tiles! Thanks for sharing all your knowledge!


Derick, Your build was one of the reasons I decided to go with the SDS approach to sound deadening, so thanks for documenting your build so well, and sorry I never stopped by the thread and left a comment


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Thanks for the awesome pics Neil! I'm sure there are some small differences since I have an R55, but seeing your floor apart assured me I can fit both of my amps (HD900/5 and HD600/4) and a processor (probably Alpine H800), along with the power distribution, under the front seats since like you, I don't believe I have any modules under the driver's side. Now I just need the time to take the entire interior apart...and some warmer weather. lol
> 
> Looks awesome! Keep up the great work!


Thanks for the positive encouragement. There are no modules under the driver's side on my R56... My Bentley manual which covers R55, R56, and R57 shows that certain models may have a rather large module or two under the driver's seat (U4000a telephone transceiver and U400e ULF module). Also certain audio packages might have the satellite radio module under the passenger seat (N47).. I have the boost radio non-Harman and I don't have this module. When I special-ordered my car, I made sure not to get any options or crap I didn't need, which has helped in retrospect, since they tend to be little modules that are buried throughout the car under the interior panels and carpet. 

Btw, the Bentley manual has been the best $100 spent on my car yet, they're 10000x better than a Hayne's manual. Definitely send me a PM if you have any problems with anything, especially getting the dash or interior apart and back together in one piece.. I'm slowly becoming an expert on that.


----------



## quality_sound

Funny you mention that, that's EXACTLY why I didn't order BT/iPod nor HK. I wanted my floor as open as possible. 

Where did you get your Bentley? I've owned one for every car I've owned but last I heard the R55 JCW wasn't available yet. 

I'll definitely hit you up about the dash. I'm pretty sure, unless something FAR better comes up during CES, that I'll be using an IVA-D106 and a PXA-H800 with the controller mounted under the D106.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Funny you mention that, that's EXACTLY why I didn't order BT/iPod nor HK. I wanted my floor as open as possible.
> 
> Where did you get your Bentley? I've owned one for every car I've owned but last I heard the R55 JCW wasn't available yet.
> 
> I'll definitely hit you up about the dash. I'm pretty sure, unless something FAR better comes up during CES, that I'll be using an IVA-D106 and a PXA-H800 with the controller mounted under the D106.


The Bentley manual I linked to above covers R55, R56, and R57, both JCW and non JCW. I got mine from Amazon.com.


----------



## quietfly

did you receive the speaker covers yet? if so how did they turn out?


----------



## Neil_J

quietfly said:


> did you receive the speaker covers yet? if so how did they turn out?


The CNC aluminum pieces showed up yesterday from Front Panel Express... They look pretty awesome. I still need to have the MDF rings fabricated, and the hexagonal aluminum mesh powder coated black, which might have to wait until some time in February


----------



## quietfly

pics?


----------



## Neil_J

quietfly said:


> pics?


Keep in mind that the plate and hexagonal mesh will be placed inside an MDF speaker ring that will be wrapped in carbon fiber. Also, the hexagonal mesh will be powder-coated gloss black to match the L1 Pro R2 tweeters.

The plate below was cut from "natural" color / silver matte hard-anodized aluminum. I had originally intended on having it machined from bare aluminum and having it locally anodized, but decided to err on the side of laziness and just deal with the bare edges (which came out pretty clean btw)




































Above is the print for the MDF rings


----------



## quietfly

Looks really good, with the cf trim rings its gonna be killer!!!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## InjunV18

Came out great! Looking forward to the installed rings


----------



## Neil_J

I got the hurricane nuts and other hardware in the mail last night, and managed to get the subs and binding posts mounted in the box. The mounting strategy is a bit unique. I'm using five hurricane nuts and 10-32 socket head cap screws per driver, and three wood screws at 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00. The box walls are so close to the speaker lip that there was no way to get the nuts in there. I used four sets of the Dayton gold binding posts (which kind of added up at $7 per pair !!!)

The idea is to get everything wired up tonight and see how the response curve looks, using an ECM8000 mic and TrueRTA. 

Spring classes start Monday, so I'll have a bit less time to work on everything until Summer. I'd say there's at least another 6 months of work ahead for me at this rate. I've been driving around without any music for about 2 months now, so hopefully I can get something wired up temporarily, I'm dying to hear how it sounds.


----------



## req

so the mdf spacer is going to offset the grill from the speaker?

im not a huge fan of the big hybrid logo, id of gone with a simple mesh, but i love the attention to detail. you are doing a fine job sir. im in for the subscription


----------



## Neil_J

req said:


> so the mdf spacer is going to offset the grill from the speaker?
> 
> im not a huge fan of the big hybrid logo, id of gone with a simple mesh, but i love the attention to detail. you are doing a fine job sir. im in for the subscription


Thank you for the kind words. I'm checking your build log out now, excellent attention to detail on the wiring (I'm sure it sounds good too). I have some very interesting stuff in store for wiring all my stuff up, it will be top-notch.

As for the MDF to speaker cone spacing..

my maths is: 
19.05 mm (3/4") pocket, from baffle to the mesh bits
5 mm for the basket lip
10 mm xmax (assuming the cone is normally flush with the basket lip, and then extends 10mm away from the magnet
3mm for the anodized logo piece
1mm for the mesh

Which leaves 0.05 mm or so extra space ... God, what the hell was I thinking? I'll get the MDF drawing revised tonight... Peer review process for the win. Good looking out req.


----------



## Neil_J

Arrrgh, the SWR-843D's banana plug jacks are two small to fit a standard size banana plug!! 

Alpine, you ****!!!!


----------



## adamand

What about BFA speaker plugs? They are a little smaller (in cross section)... like these: 8 DELTRON BFA AMP SPEAKER PLUGS for Arcam Linn Cyrus | eBay * but minus the outer covers. These were used for all of the Linn (and other English stereo amp manufacturers) for years. Should be able to find them locally.


----------



## Neil_J

adamand said:


> What about BFA speaker plugs? They are a little smaller (in cross section)... like these: 8 DELTRON BFA AMP SPEAKER PLUGS for Arcam Linn Cyrus | eBay * but minus the outer covers. These were used for all of the Linn (and other English stereo amp manufacturers) for years. Should be able to find them locally.


I will give those a shot... Thanks for the link. I'm also going to stop by and harass Jim Walter a bit in the SWR-823D thread as to why regular-ass banana plugs don't fit.


----------



## quality_sound

Are the terminals spring loaded? If so, head to any home theater shop and get speaker pins. Work just like banana plugs, just a lot skinnier.


----------



## Neil_J

For my 200th post: Today I got the subs wired up and took some preliminary RTA measurements. With all the cabin gain, it actually measured a lot more flat than I would have guessed. It does play down to 20 Hz, but not very cleanly... This is probably a combination of harmonic distortion and loose crap flapping around in my car. My goal for tomorrow is to get the front 3-way stage and MS-8 wired up and listen to a few reference tracks.









Gold Dayton binding posts to dual 12 AWG wire pairs. Wired in parallel, each amp sees 2 ohms per sub. I'll eventually be ordering a glossy laser-cut panel that will sit on top of the box, so those binding posts will be hidden.









My ghetto-rack, *strictly for debugging purposes!* :blush:









It takes extreme attention-to-detail to end up with something as clean as this 









Doing some TrueRTA measurements... Behringer ECM-8000 directly into mic input #1 on the M-Audio MobilePre, and line-out #1 directly out to the JL amps.


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> It takes extreme attention-to-detail to end up with something as clean as this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doing some TrueRTA measurements... Behringer ECM-8000 directly into mic input #1 on the M-Audio MobilePre, and line-out #1 directly out to the JL amps.


Humm... I love stir-fried noodles  

Kelvin


----------



## Neil_J

I posted a write-up of my subwoofer box measurements here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ed/121064-search-bass-car-not-much-space.html


----------



## quality_sound

Updates?


----------



## Neil_J

Progress has been slow, with college and other stuff. And to make it worse, I haven't been able to buy anything online, because i got hit with credit card fraud, so I'm waiting on my new card to show up 

Over the weekend, I ripped the carpet out again to cover the MLV seams with lead tape. I also drilled/installed plastic ziptie mounts down both sides of the interior, since the stock plastic mounts no longer fit after the sound deadening material was added. I'm hoping this will be the last time the carpet and center console will ever have to come out.

Late Sunday, I ghetto-rigged up the three way front stage and subs directly to the XD amps (sans-MS-8), set the gains and crossovers, and threw a blanket over it. My initial impressions after about 30 miles of driving is that the SWR-843D's are every bit as tight, punchy, musical, and accurate as everyone has been saying... However the distortion I mentioned in my last link is very audible and kind of ruins the experience for certain types of music. I've seriously been thinking about putting a 15 square foot box or so where the rear seat goes, and loading a few 15's in it. I'd get my trunk back, and it would still be removable if needed.

The HAT three-way stage is freakin' amazing, even without equalization and time alignment. I'm glad that it will only be getting better from here, as the other pieces start coming together. Like most other large engineering projects, this one is over-due and over-budget. I'm thinking it may start nearing completion by the end of summer.


----------



## slade1274

Neil_J said:


> I've seriously been thinking about putting a 15 square foot box or so where the rear seat goes....


Seriously consider it.... how many legless people are you going to tote around anyway.


That is what I envision when dreaming of my 997 turbo..... key word: dreaming


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I look forward to hearing more about that front stage of HAT products. Great Job!!!


----------



## blackknight87

This Mini is going to JUMP when all those subs hit at once. Looks killer bro!


----------



## req

your welcome sir haha. i hope it works out! i thank you for the kind words, i have made some changes with the front stage and i need to post pics i guess lol.

the speaker plugs are an awesome idea too, i use them for the termination of the speaker wires at the amps because i hate when the bare wire starts to frey if its ever got to be moved/messed with. there are some cheap ones on pe ill link to when i get home that have a set screw, but i took that out and soldered them in place. it worked awesome.

keep up your tenacity for detail, do it right and run all the wires (if u can put an optical cable and an extra set of rcas down there for the future) i wish i had done that lol.

looking mighty fine!!


----------



## Neil_J

More sound deadening pictures... My god has this been a tedious process :mean:



















Time to break out the lead foil tape, bitches 









All MLV seams were covered with multiple layers of lead tape to make a vapor barrier between the cabin and the frame.



















The stock MINI wiring harness fasteners were replaced with screw-mount black plastic cable tie holders (McMaster p/n 7582K11). The stock ones were no good after adding the CCF and MLV layers. I mounted them every 7.5 to 8 inches, in accordance with IASCA and MECA install rules. On the passenger side, I sandwiched the stock wiring harness between the 1/0 AWG power cable and the signal wiring, which in my experience at work gives a nice faraday cage effect to the low-voltage analog signals.

As I mentioned on the first page of my build log, I've wrapped all non-visible wiring in fleece tape (purchased from Don at Sound Deadener Showdown), which not only matches the stock BMW/MINI electrical wiring, but also does an excellent job at keeping the stiff wires from rattling against the body. The only wire I haven't wrapped in fleece tape yet is the main signal wire, mostly because I'm lazy.









Still have a chunk behind the seats that needs a piece of MLV, but otherwise, I have a complete vapor barrier from the firewall to the rear cargo area


----------



## Neil_J

Now a quick non-sequitur, I sound-deadened my Tripp-Lite PR60 60-amp DC power supply, as it was making a terrible 60 Hz hum that was not only annoying, but was actually interfering with my distortion and frequency response measurements.


Does anyone know why transformers hum?


It's because they don't know the words :laugh: 





Anyway, the hum is almost gone now.... Maybe one day I'll spring for an proper one from Agilent or Sorenson.


----------



## Neil_J

I've never trusted spring terminals... Case in point, when I went to measure the DC resistance after the HAT L3SE's were installed, the driver side was reading 17+ ohms  It turned out that the philips screw holding the spring terminal to the tinsel mounting plate had loosened or was never fully tightened. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tighten them without removing a rivet to the basket. I decided to solder Dean's connectors to the tinsel leads via 16 AWG cable. I do trust Dean's connectors, with my life -- Anyone that's seen a Youtube video of Alan Szabo doing crack-rolls with an RC helicopter can appreciate the awesomeness of a Dean's connector. I use over half a dozen of them on my UAV hexacopter photo rig, it weighs over 10 pounds, has six blades, and twice the wattage of my audio system 




























If you remove the midrange covers on a MINI, you'll notice this big gap on both passenger and driver's side that allows the front wave and back wave to mix (you can kind of see this in the second picture). I tried to solve this problem with a bit of closed-cell foam. It seems to work rather well. Above is the passenger's side which doesn't have the power mirror adjust.









Not shown - I stuffed a good chunk of PolyFill into the midrange cavities. I've pondered about cutting a hole to open the it up into the door cavity... The L3SE's sound a bit stuffy right now and would likely sound a lot better in infinite baffle configuration.


----------



## bassfromspace

Great job Neil!

What's the name of the tape you used to wrap the speaker wire with in the last pic?


----------



## Neil_J

Dean's quick disconnects for the L1 Pro R2's









This was the test fit of my Headshok aluminum pods to the stock beige A-pillars. I've since received a set of black replacement pillars special order from OutMotoring, and plan to anodize the pods black. I'll hold off on posting any installed pictures until they've been anodized and the rest of the trim/detail pieces have been installed  They don't look right at the moment, but holy crap do they sound amazing!!


----------



## whoever

Fantastic install Neil


----------



## Neil_J

bassfromspace said:


> Great job Neil!
> 
> What's the name of the tape you used to wrap the speaker wire with in the last pic?


Fleece tape, available from Don aka rudeboy on diyma, $9.90 per roll on Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information










Speaking of Rudeboy, I was rocking out to that song today on the way to work


----------



## Neil_J

whoever said:


> Fantastic install Neil


Thanks... Where are you in Florida?


----------



## whoever

Neil_J said:


> Thanks... Where are you in Florida?


Im in Tampa, when your finished let me know, Id take a trip over to have a listen.


----------



## Powers

Those tweeter pods are amazing. How? Where?!


----------



## ecbmxer

What are your impressions of those XD amps? They're nice and small and a combo of a 600/1 and 600/6 would be great for a 2way+sub setup like mine. I've been debating between those or the HDs. Did you also put MLV in the doors? I think I want to add some to my car in the spring, but it would only be the floor area front to back. There is just absolutely no room in my doors. With deadener and CCF, they barely clip as is.


----------



## Neil_J

Powers said:


> Those tweeter pods are amazing. How? Where?!


Headshok was selling them a while back, he may still have a few available, in this thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...um-pod-pre-order-pods-finally-being-made.html

Had Headshok not already made them, I would have had something very similar made myself. Gotta love diyma, great mind think alike. They are functional. If you haven't seen Patrick Bateman's awesome thread about improving your soundstage for $2. I improved mine but it costed me $170


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> What are your impressions of those XD amps? They're nice and small and a combo of a 600/1 and 600/6 would be great for a 2way+sub setup like mine. I've been debating between those or the HDs. Did you also put MLV in the doors? I think I want to add some to my car in the spring, but it would only be the floor area front to back. There is just absolutely no room in my doors. With deadener and CCF, they barely clip as is.


The XD's supposedly have slightly higher distortion that the HD's. I tried both and I couldn't tell the difference when level matched (basically a drop in the bucket next to speaker distortion and reflections). The HD's will go louder, so more headroom basically. I've posted a few places about why I like the XD's more.. Basically I think they're easier to work on as the set screw slots double as DMM/scope TSS points (the HD hides them and the amp stops working when you unplug the connector!). They're smaller which matters if your car is slightly more than a glorified go-kart like mine. Also the XD700.5 is one of the only class D amps with a ~4 KHz active crossover that will drive a tweeter and mid from a single channel, which is necessary for me since I've run out of channels on my MS-8 (there's a better description in my second build log post). Finally, it's powder coated and resists scratches more than the HD. As my test lab gets more geared towards audio, I'll be running a few amp distortion measurements and listening tests on the XD to back up my initial impressions.

As for the MLV on the doors.. I've not added anything other than SecondSkin Damplifier Pro on them so far. The inside skin is basically a huge thick piece of airtight plastic, and I'm tempted to simply cover it in cross-hatching layers of lead foil tape. It's extremely thin (0.0047" iirc), but heavy enough to completely block sound. Plus, I doubt rainwater would affect it much (I'd obviously paint or seal over it to keep lead runoff from polluting the planet, as I'm a tree hugging hippie  ).. I'll probably wait for some opinions before I go that route though.


----------



## quietfly

Neil any more work on the l6se's covers? and do you have a pic of the tweeters mounted in the front stage, ( the only picture i saw of them was kind of sideways and upside down)


----------



## ecbmxer

Thanks! I'm kind of debating on several amps, HDs, XDs, or newer PDXs. I don't need crossovers because I'll have a Bit Ten.


----------



## Neil_J

quietfly said:


> Neil any more work on the l6se's covers? and do you have a pic of the tweeters mounted in the front stage, ( the only picture i saw of them was kind of sideways and upside down)


No, but I'll have my tax return soon, and that should cover the following:
- L6SE grill trim rings and genuine CF wrap
- Black powder coating for the hexagonal mesh pieces
- Black anodizing for the L1 Pro R2 CNC pods
- one more JL XD500.3 amp
- possibly a set of HAT Imagine 6x9's for the rear??

I'll post some pics of the installed A-pillar pods after they've been anodized


----------



## quietfly

Neil_J said:


> No, but I'll have my tax return soon,.....
> I'll post some pics of the installed A-pillar pods after they've been anodized


LOL I have not even gotten my w2's yet.........

i'm looking forward to seeing what those look like on the a pillars in the context of your dash...

awesome as always!!1


----------



## HondAudio

quietfly said:


> LOL I have not even gotten my w2's yet.........
> 
> i'm looking forward to seeing what those look like on the a pillars in the context of your dash...
> 
> awesome as always!!1


Yup... that's what I'm waiting on... my lone W2. I have everything else already


----------



## slade1274

Neil_J said:


> Headshok was selling them a while back...


WANT... if only they fit with same finish quality for other than HAT or Audio Pipe


----------



## Powers

Neil_J said:


> Headshok was selling them a while back, he may still have a few available, in this thread:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...um-pod-pre-order-pods-finally-being-made.html
> 
> Had Headshok not already made them, I would have had something very similar made myself. Gotta love diyma, great mind think alike. They are functional. If you haven't seen Patrick Bateman's awesome thread about improving your soundstage for $2. I improved mine but it costed me $170


Either I'm too cheap or those are just _really_ expensive.


----------



## slade1274

Lol..... funny you should say that. I'm not too cheap for the mounts, but I am for the tweeters. :laugh:

HAT L1 Pro R2 tweeters.... $530/pair


----------



## Neil_J

slade1274 said:


> Lol..... funny you should say that. I'm not too cheap for the mounts, but I am for the tweeters. :laugh:
> 
> HAT L1 Pro R2 tweeters.... $530/pair


Fun fact: The pieces that make up my HAT front stage are the same ones photographed on the Hybrid Audio site... So they're kinda famous  I got them 25% off, so these were the discount prices:

$397.50 L1 Pro R2 pair, 25% off
$360.00 L3SE pair, 25% off
$562.50 L6SE pair, 25% off
$ 30.00 Shipping
$1349.00 Total


At the time I was getting payed hella overtime (and double-pay on Sundays) and basically had no life since I was always working. I bought these to fill that dark void  I also plan to install a center stage this summer, possibly with an L8SE in the dash and another L1 Pro R2... Hopefully I'll have enough left over for a sawzall


----------



## n_olympios

Did you _want_ to write "L8SE in the dash", or was that meant to read "L3SE" or "L4SE"?


----------



## Neil_J

n_olympios said:


> Did you _want_ to write "L8SE in the dash", or was that meant to read "L3SE" or "L4SE"?


It's all hypothetical at this point until I see how much space I have to work with. But if I can fit an L8SE in the center of the dash, without affecting the airbag system or HVAC, then it's sawzall time  If not, the L4 would be a no-brainer to add with minimal modification.


----------



## n_olympios

But why would you? I can't see the point in having a 9" mid for center stage when your L&R's are 7.1" ones. 

Unless it's a matter of "if I _can_ do it, why wouldn't I?", in which case, fair enough and kudos for your courage.


----------



## Se7en

Neil_J said:


> It's all hypothetical at this point until I see how much space I have to work with. But if I can fit an L8SE in the center of the dash, without affecting the airbag system or HVAC, then it's sawzall time  If not, the L4 would be a no-brainer to add with minimal modification.


I'm sure if you removed the speedo cluster, and L8se would fit just fine 

Great looking install btw!


----------



## Neil_J

n_olympios said:


> But why would you? I can't see the point in having a 9" mid for center stage when your L&R's are 7.1" ones.
> 
> Unless it's a matter of "if I _can_ do it, why wouldn't I?", in which case, fair enough and kudos for your courage.


I might replace the L6's with L8's in kick pods in the distant future. And either way, I can't imagine a center 8" midbass sounding bad with the MS-8 Logic 7 phase steering circuit. So if it fits....


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

I like the large center myself!!!


----------



## Neil_J

Se7en said:


> I'm sure if you removed the speedo cluster, and L8se would fit just fine
> 
> Great looking install btw!


You know, that thought occurred to me several times ... I measured and it WOULD fit


----------



## quality_sound

You'll lose your defroster.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> You'll lose your defroster.


Nothing that a bit of ingenuity, bendy plastic pipe, and a 3d plastic prototyping machine couldn't fix


----------



## Mirage_Man

whoever said:


> Im in Tampa, when your finished let me know, Id take a trip over to have a listen.


Fantastic work! I believe you are even more anal than me :laugh:.

I'm in the Tampa area too. I would love to hear your set up some time.


----------



## taibanl

*Re: Door Midbass wiring*



Neil_J said:


> Stock midbass wiring was ~20 or 22 AWG. All door wiring runs through a door jamb connector, which makes it difficult to upgrade. **** you, BMW/MINI!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12 AWG Dayton speaker wire was spliced into the harness within 1" on both sides of the connector. Ohm's law works in my favor here... The voltage drop across the pins and 1" 22AWG pigtails isn't much in the grand scheme of things.





Here's how I did mine



Have you already done the airport express thing? There is a new 3d party device that uses the airport express protocol but is specifically designed for in-car applications. Came out at CES.


----------



## Neil_J

*Re: Door Midbass wiring*



taibanl said:


> Have you already done the airport express thing? There is a new 3d party device that uses the airport express protocol but is specifically designed for in-car applications. Came out at CES.


Do you remember the name of the company or product?


----------



## Neil_J

Progress has been slow the last few weeks due to college and other things. I've had the front stage and three subs ghetto-rigged for a few weeks now, and the main thing I've taken away is that the Hybrid L6SE's are simply too powerful for the doors without some serious sound deadening and vibration damping. The inner door skin is vibrating very badly, which is downright annoying at high volumes. I think the central part of the door skin (the plastic piece) will need several layers of fiberglass, CLD tiles, steel shot, and/or lead to get rid of the resonances. 

The Alpine 8's have been love/hate. They sound great -- truly musical -- for "older" types of music without a lot of bass, but fall on their ass when attempting to reproduce electronic music. I'm positive that they will be replaced in the months ahead.. But not sure by what yet.

I purchased a set of Hybrid Audio Mirus 6x9's for the rear stage (which replace the Peerless SLS 6" midbass and Tang Band 3" bamboo cone midranges that I planned to use). These will go in the stock rear locations. Not sure if these are permanent yet... I decided to go this route because there's substantially less fabrication involved than my original plan.










I also purchased the last and final JL XD500/3 amplifier, which brings the total up to fourteen channels @ 75 watts / 4 ohms, and four channels @ 300 watts / 2 ohms. This will allow me to finally wire up the fourth sub, and eventually, the 2-way center channel.


----------



## trojan fan

GIT-R-DONE!!!!


----------



## t3sn4f2

*Re: Door Midbass wiring*



Neil_J said:


> Do you remember the name of the company or product?


I think this could be the one he is referring to. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/121871-ibox-focal-new-wifi-interface.html


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> Do you remember the name of the company or product?


Kivic one i believe


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> I also purchased the last and final JL XD500/3 amplifier, which brings the total up to fourteen channels @ 75 watts / 4 ohms, and four channels @ 300 watts / 2 ohms. This will allow me to finally wire up the fourth sub, and eventually, the 2-way center channel.


Not to nitpick, but it's only 75 Watts at 14.4V. it's 60 WPC at 12V. That was the primary reason I decided to make the HDs work instead of moving to XDs. I know it's not a huge drop from 75 to 60, but still.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Not to nitpick, but it's only 75 Watts at 14.4V. it's 60 WPC at 12V. That was the primary reason I decided to make the HDs work instead of moving to XDs. I know it's not a huge drop from 75 to 60, but still.


I only listen to my audio system while driving, and my ScanGauge reads 14.2 volts when idling, which is close enough to 14.4v spec. Besides, as it sits right now, the whole thing is LOUD.. Wouldn't want it to be any louder, really. It will knock a kidney stone or two loose, that's for sure.

On another note, I got the Mirus 6x9's installed in the back, loaded with polyfill, and they freakin' rock! Finally got a chance to listen to the MS-8 with rear/side channels and Logic 7 enabled.. It sounds magical. I have to go back and re-listen to all my favorite songs again.

And lastly, I'll be submitting the orders for my amp rack pieces Monday. Lots of CNC and laser cut parts, and some other secret stuff I'll be elaborating on in the next few weeks


----------



## quality_sound

Niiiiiiiiiice. Where did the MS-8 end up? I finally got the rear side panels pulled (in the wayback) and the H800 fits in there easily. Now I'm waiting on Mr David (tokospeaker) to let us know if the D800 region coding really IS defeatable and if the tuner will be able to be used in the US. If so, I'm going with that with the D800/H800 combo. If not, P-DSP.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Niiiiiiiiiice. Where did the MS-8 end up?


Everything's still ghetto-rigged, screwed down to a piece of 1/4" birch plywood that's sitting on the rear seat that's been folded down (I have a blanket thrown over everything, not as theft prevention, but because I'm so ashamed of the ratsnest of wiring :blush. I have a new location for the MS-8 that I think everyone will like... No more ripping the passenger seat out to move wires around. I'll hold off on the details until I have pics to go with them... I'm probably looking at a week or two for the CNC'd and laser cut parts to get here. The amp rack will truly be one of a kind, I've sure as hell not seen anything like it. In the meantime, I'll be moving forward with the MS-8 display protocol reverse-engineering (haven't heard from Andy yet on the ICD document he promised, but that won't stop me).


----------



## [email protected]

Nice build! My wife has an 09 Clubman S that I want to do an install in once I finish my build!

What do the 8" Alpines lack? Any better with all 4 of them playing?


----------



## Neil_J

[email protected] said:


> Nice build! My wife has an 09 Clubman S that I want to do an install in once I finish my build!
> 
> What do the 8" Alpines lack? Any better with all 4 of them playing?


Nothing if you listen to jazz or country or even classic rock.

If you listen to a lot of electronic music, pop, or hiphop, they may under-perform at the low end if placed in a small enclosure. They'll play low, but you'll easily hear the upper harmonics (ignorance may be a good thing here... If you're not great at pinpointing harmonic distortion with your ears, you might think they sound great when doing this). I've been doing tuning sessions on my car and it's gotten a bit better... Not sure if it's due to break-in, equalization changes, or simply my own expectations shifting as my system comes together.


----------



## [email protected]

Neil_J said:


> Nothing if you listen to jazz or country or even classic rock.
> 
> If you listen to a lot of electronic music, pop, or hiphop, they may under-perform at the low end if placed in a small enclosure. They'll play low, but you'll easily hear the upper harmonics (ignorance may be a good thing here... If you're not great at pinpointing harmonic distortion with your ears, you might think they sound great when doing this). I've been doing tuning sessions on my car and it's gotten a bit better... Not sure if it's due to break-in, equalization changes, or simply my own expectations shifting as my system comes together.


Where are they crossed at and at what slope?

I am fairly particular... I want a good all around sub that doesn't lack quality! I am willing to sacrifice some output to achieve a balanced response. I have a high end home audio setup in a dedicated and acoustically treated room, so I tend to be particular...


----------



## Neil_J

[email protected] said:


> Where are they crossed at and at what slope?
> 
> I am fairly particular... I want a good all around sub that doesn't lack quality! I am willing to sacrifice some output to achieve a balanced response. I have a high end home audio setup in a dedicated and acoustically treated room, so I tend to be particular...


Right now, I've got them low-passed at 60 Hz, 24 dB/octave, with a 20 Hz / 24 dB subsonic filter. Plus the ms-8 auto-tune equalization. As mentioned earlier in my build thread, I've got four of them in 0.3 cu.ft. each sealed (3 of the 4 wired up currently, I should have the fourth one wired up in the next few weeks). The way I see it... If you're limited on space, give them a try (port them if at all possible). They're cheap enough, and have resale value on this forum anyway. If you have ~10 cubic feet or so to work with, however... go with something bigger, like a pair of 12's or 15's, that will be able to outperform the 8's without breaking a sweat.


----------



## quality_sound

They really are better in .45-.5 cf.


----------



## BowDown

Very nice build. Glad to see you went with the new TypeR subs. I kinda wish Alpine had chose a new product line for them.. they are nothing like the garbage TypeR's previous to them. Kind of gives their SQ qualities a stab in the gut when you mention you're running TypeR's.


----------



## BowDown

Neil_J said:


> Nothing if you listen to jazz or country or even classic rock.
> 
> If you listen to a lot of electronic music, pop, or hiphop, they may under-perform at the low end if placed in a small enclosure. They'll play low, but you'll easily hear the upper harmonics (ignorance may be a good thing here... If you're not great at pinpointing harmonic distortion with your ears, you might think they sound great when doing this). I've been doing tuning sessions on my car and it's gotten a bit better... Not sure if it's due to break-in, equalization changes, or simply my own expectations shifting as my system comes together.


They take a solid 10hrs of beating on them before they break in. It will sound better every day you listen to em.


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> They take a solid 10hrs of beating on them before they break in. It will sound better every day you listen to em.


Well then I better get that forth sub hooked up, or i'll have three sounding good and one not so good


----------



## Socially Distorted

Looks great Neil. Wondering... what kind of work did you do on your doors in terms of noise isolation and dampening? Any pics of the door as it is/was finished before door card install? I've got a MINI GP that I'm looking to install some HAT door speakers in and thought I would ask to see how your install was executed.

Cheers!


----------



## StockA4

Neil_J said:


> Removed the passenger seat to install the MS-8 underneath the carpet, and to install my new HalGuard Halotron 1 fire extinguisher and Rennline mount.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The next step is to fabricate eight RCA cables using 120 feet of red Canare Star Quad signal cable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opening up the MS-8 remote pod to add in a sheet of Rosco #22 orange filter gel between the LCD and the front bezel. Thanks to Radarcontact and his I want my MS-8 to display in RED! thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mind the open container of alcohol in the cupholder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shot was over-exposed.. I need to re-take this picture with manual exposure control


I see they (BMW) took care of the gauge problem. I have a 2005 and I'm almost serious when I say I want to put in a Knight Rider steering wheel so I don't have to duck to see my speed.

Nice work!


----------



## taibanl

Nice work! Seems the mini gages are a shade more orange than the BMW...did you use the #22 for yours? 

Thank you for the care package!!! I owe you a beer! MS-8 display looks great, if a touch on the orange side (just a touch when brightness is up).


----------



## Neil_J

Socially Distorted said:


> Looks great Neil. Wondering... what kind of work did you do on your doors in terms of noise isolation and dampening? Any pics of the door as it is/was finished before door card install? I've got a MINI GP that I'm looking to install some HAT door speakers in and thought I would ask to see how your install was executed.


The only door deadening I've done is add a few pieces of SecondSkin Damplifier Pro to the passenger side. I intend to reinforce the inner plastic skin with something heavy like lead or steel shot, and maybe some fiberglass, but that will be a big task in itself. I've still got to install the driver side Damplifier Pro, and add a set if deflex pads behind the L6SE's. Then, start fixing rattles in the outer part of the inner skin.... Still a long way to go :-/


----------



## Neil_J

StockA4 said:


> I see they (BMW) took care of the gauge problem. I have a 2005 and I'm almost serious when I say I want to put in a Knight Rider steering wheel so I don't have to duck to see my speed.


The speedometers have always been ridiculously huge, are you referring to the tachometer?


----------



## GLN305

Neil_J said:


> The only door deadening I've done is add a few pieces of SecondSkin Damplifier Pro to the passenger side. I intend to reinforce the inner plastic skin with something heavy like lead or steel shot, and maybe some fiberglass, but that will be a big task in itself. I've still got to install the driver side Damplifier Pro, and add a set if deflex pads behind the L6SE's. Then, start fixing rattles in the outer part of the inner skin.... Still a long way to go :-/


I have been trying to devise a plan to deaden the plastic inner door skin, seems like a challenger. I have fully deadened the door panel, but it still rattles. I am going to put some felt on the door clips to see if that helps.


----------



## StockA4

Neil_J said:


> The speedometers have always been ridiculously huge, are you referring to the tachometer?


No, I'm talking about he speedo and tach (same size) being clustered front and center, with the steering wheel blocking so that I have to crane my neck up or down to see the exact reading. My wife has the car at work right now. I'll show you a picture later. It's an '05.


----------



## quality_sound

Yeah, 1G's are a pain in the ass to see the gauges on.


----------



## StockA4

quality_sound said:


> Yeah, 1G's are a pain in the ass to see the gauges on.


And it's almost like BMW heard all of the complaints about cluster placement and said, "Fine, you don't like our idea, here you go then"! And put in the enormous speedo.

And here I thought speedo's were supposed to be tiny :shocked:


----------



## Neil_J

StockA4 said:


> And it's almost like BMW heard all of the complaints about cluster placement and said, "Fine, you don't like our idea, here you go then"! And put in the enormous speedo.
> 
> And here I thought speedo's were supposed to be tiny :shocked:


I want to remove my speedo and put an L8SE in its place


----------



## StockA4

Nothing wrong with that I suppose. I just picked up my CDT's, but man, I haven't heard nearly as many good things about them as I have with HAT. I thought about auditioning some HAT's in the Mini. And I also thought about cutting out the 6x9's in the back completely and just running a 3way up front. But I really like what you did with the W3's back there. You've given me much food for thought.

I am going to keep the Orion NT C/F 10 back there though. Man, that thing is crisp!


----------



## Neil_J

StockA4 said:


> Nothing wrong with that I suppose. I just picked up my CDT's, but man, I haven't heard nearly as many good things about them as I have with HAT. I thought about auditioning some HAT's in the Mini.


Now that my HAT's have broke in a bit... they sound positively amazing! And I had a bunch of compromises in my install, so I can only imagine what they sound like in a car with better installation. If you want to hear what they sound like, make the trip down to Spring Break Nationals next month in Daytona FL, we're doing an informal DIYMA get-together 



StockA4 said:


> And I also thought about cutting out the 6x9's in the back completely and just running a 3way up front. But I really like what you did with the W3's back there. You've given me much food for thought.


No, the W3's weren't me! Those shots were InjunV18's, who posted the pics to my build log. I'm running HAT Mirus 6x9's back there (which sound positively great btw, with the JBL MS-8 Logic 7 / rear-fill)


----------



## StockA4

Sorry about that. I swear I was paying attention the whole way through!


----------



## Neil_J

StockA4 said:


> Sorry about that. I swear I was paying attention the whole way through!


Clearly my mistake, as I didn't post a picture of them as they were being installed 

It feels like the good old days, rocking 6x9's :laugh:


----------



## quality_sound

StockA4 said:


> And it's almost like BMW heard all of the complaints about cluster placement and said, "Fine, you don't like our idea, here you go then"! And put in the enormous speedo.
> 
> And here I thought speedo's were supposed to be tiny :shocked:


Nope, they did it because OG MINIs had big ass speedos in the center of the dash. It's a nostalgia thing.


----------



## StockA4

Ok, as promised. I suppose if I wasn't 6'3 it wouldn't be an issue, right?


----------



## quality_sound

It's because of the was the car was optioned. There are R53s that have the big speedo in the center.


----------



## InjunV18

What a good group of Minis now popping up on here. Much better talking about audio here than on NAM huh? Quality_sound, you and that Swiss miss mini waste too much time typing there in response to questions. It's nice of you but I couldn't do it.

Keep goin Neil!


----------



## sbeezy

StockA4 said:


> Ok, as promised. I suppose if I wasn't 6'3 it wouldn't be an issue, right?


im jealous i want the chrono package with the fake oil pressure meter


----------



## twocupsofbutter

I had to get the factory Nav just to tame the speedo down in my 09 Clubman.

I love my clubman but think they need to just go away from the center speedo just like they did 35 years or so ago


----------



## StockA4




----------



## sbeezy

twocupsofbutter said:


> I love my clubman but think they need to just go away from the center speedo just like they did 35 years or so ago


No i think they should keep the speedo (thats a mini trademark) but keep the HU completely separated from the ECU/K-bus system so buyers and enthusiasts can change the deck without having to buy a 400mm ribbon cable and relocating the stock one to behind the speedo


----------



## twocupsofbutter

This is the dash style they went to later 










makes way more sense 

oh how I loved my 1999 Rover Mini (mine had the wood dash and was LHD)

but you get the idea 

It is funny how the Mini has always been the kind of car people personalize but when BMW came out with it they want to try to integrate with inferior audio 

I sure wish I was brave enough to try and put a headunit in place of my Nav screen 

Good info here !


----------



## Neil_J

sbeezy said:


> No i think they should keep the speedo (thats a mini trademark) but keep the HU completely separated from the ECU/K-bus system so buyers and enthusiasts can change the deck without having to buy a 400mm ribbon cable and relocating the stock one to behind the speedo


Precisely. If that were a petition or open letter to BMW, I'd sign it in blood.


----------



## quality_sound

Someone on NAM swapped out the OEM navi screen for a touchscreen for a carputer... Pretty wild but not for me. A D106/H800 combo with OS MB Quart 210/164s in the OEM speaker locations and an OS Kicker C15d 15 in the spare tirewell of my JCW R55 is PLENTY for me.


----------



## sbeezy

twocupsofbutter said:


> This is the dash style they went to later
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> makes way more sense
> 
> oh how I loved my 1999 Rover Mini (mine had the wood dash and was LHD)
> 
> but you get the idea
> 
> It is funny how the Mini has always been the kind of car people personalize but when BMW came out with it they want to try to integrate with inferior audio
> 
> I sure wish I was brave enough to try and put a headunit in place of my Nav screen
> 
> Good info here !


thats a sweet ride right there... yes BMW gayed the MINI up a bit i agree


----------



## Neil_J

So I've had the luxury of not having to shop for a head-unit up until yesterday... 

I did the measurements, and using the MS-8 to process the factory hi-level speaker signals is NOT acceptable... not even close. 










*MobilePre loopback:* This is the baseline of the DAC and ADC I used.
*MS8 test mode:* This is the MS-8's baseline. Using the secret test mode command, this is CH1 and CH2 input RCA's routed to CH1 and CH2 output RCA's, at 0 dB. This is to benchmark the MS-8's ADC's and DAC's.
*MS8 AUX 2ch defeat:* This was taken to simulate what the best-case performance would be, sending a signal through the MS-8's AUX input during normal operation, with L7 off and processing defeated. MS8 CH1 and CH2 output were setup as 1-way fronts with a 20 Hz 24-dB/oct. high-pass filter.
*MS8 thru MINI AUX defeat:* Finally, this shows what the MS-8 has to work with when processing the high-level speaker signals from the head unit. A test signal was injected into the MINI's AUX jack (a 1/8" TRS normally intended for iPods and such), which was "processed" by the MINI (more like destroyed ), output via the speaker signals, converted to low-level by the MS-8, digitized, and outputted to output CH1 and CH2. Processing and L7 were defeated, because I have no way of measuring the corrected input signal without also including the "room" corrections as measured by the binaural mic. As I said, this is what the MS-8 is presented with before it starts doing is DSP corrections. It will then make frequency response corrections (at the penalty of altering phase), but will not be able to improve the noise floor or dynamic range. THD and IMD could get better or worse after correction.









Frequency response
Clearly you can see that MINI frequency response is utter crap (green curve). The white curve shows the MS-8's 20 Hz high-pass filter at 24 dB/octave which is the best freq. response the MS-8 is capable of. The green curve actually does include the same high-pass in addition to the MINI's high-pass, so the curve is the sum of the two.









Noise level
*This is the graph that convinced me that the MS-8 could and will never "restore" the factory signal to CD or better quality.* 
Look at the noise that's been added! Almost 10 dB on the high end! 20 dB on the low end! Are you [email protected]!%#@ kidding me? The MS-8 can handle the frequency response stuff, no problem. *But it cannot remove noise. Garbage in, garbage out.*









Dynamic range









THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)
Lots of yummy harmonics added. Some would likely go away after the MS-8 corrects the frequency response, but I don't have a way to measure it.









Intermodulation distortion
Same story for IMD.

So long story short... I need a head unit. I'm done messing around with trying to "recover" what the stock MINI head unit has destroyed. As sbeezy said, the BMW engineers really gayed this thing up. WTF were they thinking. *I would actually be willing to fork out quite a bit for a MOST-bus solution,* but to date I've still not seen anyone with an '07-'12 Boost / Basic system that has gone this route. It's not fiber optic like the BMW's so I'm not sure it's even possible.

Now that I actually need one, I'm not sure what to get. It needs to be single-DIN, I'm fabbing a custom panel that will be single-DIN that will have some knobs and switches and stuff


Pioneer P99RS is nice but expensive, and wasteful since I already have a DSP (well 2 DSP's now actually)
Pioneer P80RS is PERFECT, but won't be out before Spring Break Nationals... Do I wait and use another head unit for the competition?
Alpine keeps canning all their good SQ head units. Closest thing they make now is the iDA-X305S, but doesn't have a CD player, which would be better for MECA competitions. Looks like crap, too.
Alpine CDA-117 would be great, but they sacked it, and the display is BLUE, which would probably look like ass with the orange MINI interior lighting.
Alpine 9887 is legendary, but doesn't support the iPod functionality I need.
I've got a Best Buy Special Kenwood laying around in the closet, the specs aren't exactly great, but are orders of magnitude better than using the MS-8 processing the factory radio hi-level signals. This might get me through the competition until I can pick up a P80RS.
Any other good (affordable) SQ single-DIN head units out there? I don't need three-way active or anything. I'm mainly looking for:


A decent DAC, e.g. Burr Brown
Super-low noise floor (at least 105 dB, 110+ would be better). 
Super low THD, <0.005% (I'm worrying about the THD stackup after the MS8 DSP and any other pieces that make it into my signal chain).
CD player for IASCA and MECA competions
Sirius/XM capable
iPod support - Specifically, the capability of still navigating using the iPhone/iPad touchscreen, but using the HU's DAC instead of the iDac  My old Pioneer deck handled all this brilliantly.
No internal amplification would be preferable
Something that doesn't look like complete and utter crap. P99 and McIntosh units are beautiful IMO. Preferably something that would look good with amber-orange interior lighting.
Preferably under $500, but I'd pay a lot more than that if I saw something that fit my needs perfectly


----------



## taibanl

Refresh my memory. Is the mini HU codable to low level outputs like BMW?


----------



## taibanl

Also what happened to the airplay input?


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Refresh my memory. Is the mini HU codable to low level outputs like BMW?


Even if it was, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it... The noise measured above would likely still be there (or get much worse if the signal gets smaller but noise stays the same, S/N ratio goes up). If I wasn't doing SQ competitions that would be one thing. But I'll need a real SQ source unit, especially for section 8.4 (sound linearity) and 8.5 (absense of noise) of the IASCA guidelines.



taibanl said:


> Also what happened to the airplay input?


It's a great product, but unfortunately won't help me for IASCA or MECA competitions. Even though IASCA allows digital sources, I'd still lose points for being able to "safely operate the controls while driving" -- this is a fault of the iPad user interface.. iOS 5 is a huuge step back for the music player interface. Not to mention that it's not mounted to anything solid, I'm hesitant to use while driving for this reason alone. Lastly, I believe you have to enable airplay every time you start the car and power on the iPad, and that's a huge inconvenience (got to thank Apple for that one too). I truly wish getting various pieces of consumer electronics to talk nicely to each other wasn't so much of a hassle


----------



## CLK63DK

I'm sure that you got some kind of MOST bus in the car.

No1 would be to go for a Audioson or Mobridge interface an use the connectivity from this channel.

Better than chopping an ugly aftermarket HU in a perfect design...


----------



## quality_sound

Why don't you go DD? The only dash kit available is a DD anyway. I would LOVE to be able to find a single DIN kit but no one makes one.


----------



## Neil_J

CLK63DK said:


> I'm sure that you got some kind of MOST bus in the car.
> 
> No1 would be to go for a Audioson or Mobridge interface an use the connectivity from this channel.
> 
> Better than chopping an ugly aftermarket HU in a perfect design...


Yea, I see the MOST bus in my MINI service manual, but it's copper conductor (MOST50 or MOST150), not fiber optic (MOST25 or MOST150). All the BMW's I've seen that do the MOST conversion have the fiber optic type, and I'm not sure the MoBridge handles the MINI (even though MoBridge says it does). If I can find even one person out there that has sucessfully converted an '07-'12 MINI with the Basic Boost system, then I'll gladly buy it and install it. But I haven't seen any in the 6+ months of searching I've done  


Has anyone out there seen MOST converted 2nd gen MINI??


----------



## CLK63DK

I dident do the MOST conversion, but apart from Navigation and Bluetooth we have MOST in "our" (<- actually my GF's) Mini.

You find the MOST cables in the Quadlock connector feeding the radio w. power and the HT cables. If you PM me a mail add, I can send you a few pictures from when I had the radio out for comparison.

And MOST is pr defination optical, so... 

Btw. Audioson = audisson...


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Why don't you go DD? The only dash kit available is a DD anyway. I would LOVE to be able to find a single DIN kit but no one makes one.


Because that gives me room for a single-DIN custom panel with the following knobs and switches:


System kill switch (toggle sw)
MS-8 volume (rotary encoder)
MS-8 Logic7 on/off (toggle sw)
MS-8 processing on/off (toggle sw)
MS-8 Head Unit/Aux (toggle sw)
MS-8 system levels (sub, center, bal, fader, aux) (potentiometers w/center detent)
MS-8 tone control (treble, mid, bass) (potentiometers w/center detent)
Favorite select 1-5 (either momentary toggle or rotary sw)
MS-8 binaural mic jack (I figured out a way to remote mount it, more on that later)
A few other knobs for my subwoofer DSP (I ran out of channels on the MS8 and using a separate DSP now, more on that later)

The MS-8 physical controls will be made possible by my Arduino-powered I2C MS-8 display emulator project.


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> Even if it was, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it... The noise measured above would likely still be there (or get much worse if the signal gets smaller but noise stays the same, S/N ratio goes up). If I wasn't doing SQ competitions that would be one thing. But I'll need a real SQ source unit, especially for section 8.4 (sound linearity) and 8.5 (absense of noise) of the IASCA guidelines.
> 
> 
> It's a great product, but unfortunately won't help me for IASCA or MECA competitions. Even though IASCA allows digital sources, I'd still lose points for being able to "safely operate the controls while driving" -- this is a fault of the iPad user interface.. iOS 5 is a huuge step back for the music player interface. Not to mention that it's not mounted to anything solid, I'm hesitant to use while driving for this reason alone. Lastly, I believe you have to enable airplay every time you start the car and power on the iPad, and that's a huge inconvenience (got to thank Apple for that one too). I truly wish getting various pieces of consumer electronics to talk nicely to each other wasn't so much of a hassle


1) *VP Electricity @ MusicarNW should have detailed FR/noise measurements when the HU is coded to flat. He has measured them before. I am not sure its competition level though.

2) I am not sure, though I do know the airplay toggle is very easy to access as it is on every screen of the iPhone when an airplay device is present. As far as handsfree usability, BMW make an app for iphone with much larger buttons (BMW Link) I am certain there is a mini link app also (UK itunes store). These aren't solutions, just ideas to kick around*

3) Why do you find that the FR drops off below 50ish hz on the AUX input of MS-8? (Image 1) Do you think its because its the frontstage channels and not the sub channel? I am wondering because I have my sub piggybacked off my frontstage and i have noticably softer output @ 31hz and 25hz, and none @ 20hz.


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> Even if it was, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it... The noise measured above would likely still be there (or get much worse if the signal gets smaller but noise stays the same, S/N ratio goes up). If I wasn't doing SQ competitions that would be one thing. But I'll need a real SQ source unit, especially for section 8.4 (sound linearity) and 8.5 (absense of noise) of the IASCA guidelines.


The low level HU outputs are up to 5V in the BMW, Hi Level 9V plus EQ. most of your noise is probably induced by the stock HU amplfication section. Worth a try to code anyway.


----------



## thbugman

I just sold my clubman a few months ago. I'm in psl...Had a little system in it


----------



## n_olympios

I'm not very sure about the tweeter angling, but I love the pillar styling!


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Why do you find that the FR drops off below 50ish hz on the AUX input of MS-8? (Image 1) Do you think its because its the frontstage channels and not the sub channel? I am wondering because I have my sub piggybacked off my frontstage and i have noticably softer output @ 31hz and 25hz, and none @ 20hz.


It's actually the -3dB point of the 20 Hz subsonic filter. If you look at the Y scale, it's kind of zoomed in and possibly a bit misleading.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> So I've had the luxury of not having to shop for a head-unit up until yesterday...
> 
> I did the measurements, and using the MS-8 to process the factory hi-level speaker signals is NOT acceptable... not even close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MobilePre loopback:* This is the baseline of the DAC and ADC I used.
> *MS8 test mode:* This is the MS-8's baseline. Using the secret test mode command, this is CH1 and CH2 input RCA's routed to CH1 and CH2 output RCA's, at 0 dB. This is to benchmark the MS-8's ADC's and DAC's.
> *MS8 AUX 2ch defeat:* This was taken to simulate what the best-case performance would be, sending a signal through the MS-8's AUX input during normal operation, with L7 off and processing defeated. MS8 CH1 and CH2 output were setup as 1-way fronts with a 20 Hz 24-dB/oct. high-pass filter.
> *MS8 thru MINI AUX defeat:* Finally, this shows what the MS-8 has to work with when processing the high-level speaker signals from the head unit. A test signal was injected into the MINI's AUX jack (a 1/8" TRS normally intended for iPods and such), which was "processed" by the MINI (more like destroyed ), output via the speaker signals, converted to low-level by the MS-8, digitized, and outputted to output CH1 and CH2. Processing and L7 were defeated, because I have no way of measuring the corrected input signal without also including the "room" corrections as measured by the binaural mic. As I said, this is what the MS-8 is presented with before it starts doing is DSP corrections. It will then make frequency response corrections (at the penalty of altering phase), but will not be able to improve the noise floor or dynamic range. THD and IMD could get better or worse after correction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frequency response
> Clearly you can see that MINI frequency response is utter crap (green curve). The white curve shows the MS-8's 20 Hz high-pass filter at 24 dB/octave which is the best freq. response the MS-8 is capable of. The green curve actually does include the same high-pass in addition to the MINI's high-pass, so the curve is the sum of the two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noise level
> *This is the graph that convinced me that the MS-8 could and will never "restore" the factory signal to CD or better quality.*
> Look at the noise that's been added! Almost 10 dB on the high end! 20 dB on the low end! Are you [email protected]!%#@ kidding me? The MS-8 can handle the frequency response stuff, no problem. *But it cannot remove noise. Garbage in, garbage out.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dynamic range
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THD + Noise (at -3 dB FS)
> Lots of yummy harmonics added. Some would likely go away after the MS-8 corrects the frequency response, but I don't have a way to measure it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intermodulation distortion
> Same story for IMD.
> 
> So long story short... I need a head unit. I'm done messing around with trying to "recover" what the stock MINI head unit has destroyed. As sbeezy said, the BMW engineers really gayed this thing up. WTF were they thinking. *I would actually be willing to fork out quite a bit for a MOST-bus solution,* but to date I've still not seen anyone with an '07-'12 Boost / Basic system that has gone this route. It's not fiber optic like the BMW's so I'm not sure it's even possible.
> 
> Now that I actually need one, I'm not sure what to get. It needs to be single-DIN, I'm fabbing a custom panel that will be single-DIN that will have some knobs and switches and stuff
> 
> 
> Pioneer P99RS is nice but expensive, and wasteful since I already have a DSP (well 2 DSP's now actually)
> Pioneer P80RS is PERFECT, but won't be out before Spring Break Nationals... Do I wait and use another head unit for the competition?
> Alpine keeps canning all their good SQ head units. Closest thing they make now is the iDA-X305S, but doesn't have a CD player, which would be better for MECA competitions. Looks like crap, too.
> Alpine CDA-117 would be great, but they sacked it, and the display is BLUE, which would probably look like ass with the orange MINI interior lighting.
> Alpine 9887 is legendary, but doesn't support the iPod functionality I need.
> I've got a Best Buy Special Kenwood laying around in the closet, the specs aren't exactly great, but are orders of magnitude better than using the MS-8 processing the factory radio hi-level signals. This might get me through the competition until I can pick up a P80RS.
> Any other good (affordable) SQ single-DIN head units out there? I don't need three-way active or anything. I'm mainly looking for:
> 
> 
> A decent DAC, e.g. Burr Brown
> Super-low noise floor (at least 105 dB, 110+ would be better).
> Super low THD, <0.005% (I'm worrying about the THD stackup after the MS8 DSP and any other pieces that make it into my signal chain).
> CD player for IASCA and MECA competions
> Sirius/XM capable
> iPod support - Specifically, the capability of still navigating using the iPhone/iPad touchscreen, but using the HU's DAC instead of the iDac  My old Pioneer deck handled all this brilliantly.
> No internal amplification would be preferable
> Something that doesn't look like complete and utter crap. P99 and McIntosh units are beautiful IMO. Preferably something that would look good with amber-orange interior lighting.
> Preferably under $500, but I'd pay a lot more than that if I saw something that fit my needs perfectly


Neil, that head unit might not be as bad as you think. The mobile pre loop back results look extremely poor and should not be any where near those figures (at least for everything but FR). At those levels, the ms-8 true performance is being completely hidden. It's possible that the added noise from the ms-8 is still at an inaudible level after the ms-8 is done calibrating. Try the things below and see if it helps.

-set rmaa to only analysis noise from 20-20khz
-change the thd amplitude from -3db to -1db. That way you'll be closer to the ms-8's 0dB setting and it will tell you how the ms-8 behaves near full scale.
-play with the output versus input dials to set which combination gives the best results

-For loop back or device in/out testing set the rmaa resolution and the soundcard control panel to the highest resolution your card will run at cleanly. you card I think is 24/48. BUT don't go higher than 44kHz. the 24 bit setting will remove the 16 bit digital limit of 96db and give a more accurate noise and DR result. however the analog i/o performance of your card must be several db better than the devices you are testing in order for it to remove itself truly from the results. using 44 will allow you to test from the CD player in the car instead of the aux. which will not be real world numbers unless you plan to use the aux as your SQ source.
To test from the cd player set rmaa to 16/44.1 and create the test and cal. track. Then burn them to CD-R and test the player using the record function on rmaa. Remember to set the resolution back to 24bit in rmaa before recording.

-make sure there isn't any windows sound processing of any type between the rmaa output stream and the card. As well as the card input stream and the rmaa input.

hope that helps and wasn't to hard to read. :blush:

Edit: What mobile pre do you have. I just noticed the outputs on the 2nd gen are TRS balanced only. that could be another cause for the poor results on the signgle ended AUX in headunit results.


----------



## Neil_J

t3sn4f2 said:


> Neil, that head unit might not be as bad as you think. The mobile pre loop back results look extremely poor and should not be any where near those figures (at least for everything but FR). At those levels, the ms-8 true performance is being completely hidden. It's possible that the added noise from the ms-8 is still at an inaudible level after the ms-8 is done calibrating. Try the things below and see if it helps.
> 
> -set rmaa to only analysis noise from 20-20khz
> -change the thd amplitude from -3db to -1db. That way you'll be closer to the ms-8's 0dB setting and it will tell you how the ms-8 behaves near full scale.
> -play with the output versus input dials to set which combination gives the best results
> 
> -For loop back or device in/out testing set the rmaa resolution and the soundcard control panel to the highest resolution your card will run at cleanly. you card I think is 24/48. BUT don't go higher than 44kHz. the 24 bit setting will remove the 16 bit digital limit of 96db and give a more accurate noise and DR result. however the analog i/o performance of your card must be several db better than the devices you are testing in order for it to remove itself truly from the results. using 44 will allow you to test from the CD player in the car instead of the aux. which will not be real world numbers unless you plan to use the aux as your SQ source.
> To test from the cd player set rmaa to 16/44.1 and create the test and cal. track. Then burn them to CD-R and test the player using the record function on rmaa. Remember to set the resolution back to 24bit in rmaa before recording.
> 
> -make sure there isn't any windows sound processing of any type between the rmaa output stream and the card. As well as the card input stream and the rmaa input.
> 
> -set the ms-8 to 6db highpass instead of 24db. yes, it will roll off earlier but not as steep, so it will show more of what the ms-8 is doing to the signal around 20-30hz.
> 
> hope that helps and wasn't to hard to read. :blush:


Not at all, thanks for the help! I'll give those things a shot. I admit I was shocked at how bad the MobilePre numbers were, but figured it was par for the course, being such a cheap device (I've seen and heard the noise it creates from my recording sessions in Audacity). I still think the head unit is my weak-link either way, but thanks for the advice.


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> Because that gives me room for a single-DIN custom panel with the following knobs and switches:
> 
> 
> System kill switch (toggle sw)
> MS-8 volume (rotary encoder)
> MS-8 Logic7 on/off (toggle sw)
> MS-8 processing on/off (toggle sw)
> MS-8 Head Unit/Aux (toggle sw)
> MS-8 system levels (sub, center, bal, fader, aux) (potentiometers w/center detent)
> MS-8 tone control (treble, mid, bass) (potentiometers w/center detent)
> Favorite select 1-5 (either momentary toggle or rotary sw)
> MS-8 binaural mic jack (I figured out a way to remote mount it, more on that later)
> A few other knobs for my subwoofer DSP (I ran out of channels on the MS8 and using a separate DSP now, more on that later)
> 
> The MS-8 physical controls will be made possible by my Arduino-powered I2C MS-8 display emulator project.


I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'd MUCH prefer a single DIN just so my cupholders would still be somewhat functional.  Plus it would be nice to do a custom cutout for the C800 instead of trying to make it's DIN mount work.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'd MUCH prefer a single DIN just so my cupholders would still be somewhat functional.  Plus it would be nice to do a custom cutout for the C800 instead of trying to make it's DIN mount work.


So you currently have the double-DIN Metra mount? Can you send a link to a pic? 

Come to think of it, do you have a build log? :blush:


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> It's actually the -3dB point of the 20 Hz subsonic filter. If you look at the Y scale, it's kind of zoomed in and possibly a bit misleading.


I noticed that a bit later. Thanks for pointing out my ineptitude


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> I noticed that a bit later. Thanks for pointing out my ineptitude


Well t3sn4f2 pointed out my ineptitude in taking the measurements, so you can blame me :blush:


----------



## t3sn4f2

I just realized I was wrong about recommending the 6db slope on the subsonic over the steeper one. The opposite of what I said is in fact true and you had it right at 24db. 24db becomes flatter earlier in the frequency band which would have a wider reference baseline to compare to the other results. The graph below illustrates it better. ( I edited it out of my earlier post, the rest is correct though )


----------



## GLN305

I tapped into the stock HU front outputs before the stock amp and they sound great after the BitOne corrects things. Honestly when I wan using the PPI DCX-730, it sounded very good as well. Signal is clean and can go straight into RCA's as their max clean voltage is about 4V.


----------



## Neil_J

GLN305 said:


> I tapped into the stock HU front outputs before the stock amp and they sound great after the BitOne corrects things. Honestly when I wan using the PPI DCX-730, it sounded very good as well. Signal is clean and can go straight into RCA's as their max clean voltage is about 4V.


Sounds like you have the Hifi or Harmann package. I have the basic (no external amp). My hi-level speaker outputs go up to 24V peak to peak  Very noisy, and they clip between 40 Hz and 600 Hz if the stock volume knob is cranked.


----------



## taibanl

Neil, yours sounds just like mine was (base) prior to recoding. The ms-8 did a lot to fix my signal but not enough. Post recode i have a much cleaner signal.


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Neil, yours sounds just like mine was (base) prior to recoding. The ms-8 did a lot to fix my signal but not enough. Post recode i have a much cleaner signal.


How much did the recode cost? Was it at the dealer or an independent shop?


----------



## taibanl

$104.50 at dealer. I handed them the Alpine retrofit kit instructions even though I didn't use the hardware itself. I think it took all of about 15 minutes. I'm trying to search online to find the mini equivalent instructions


----------



## taibanl

http://www.totalmini.com/forum/fittingguides/2ndgen/R56Alpinekit.pdf okay so I found a set of instructions and say the kit does not require coding. There're multiple sets of instructions for the BMW kit floating around. Some said coding was required, others didn't. In any case I was able to get the coding done. There should be a list of vehicles specific conversions available when you go to the dealer and hook up your car to the computer


----------



## GLN305

Neil_J said:


> Sounds like you have the Hifi or Harmann package. I have the basic (no external amp). My hi-level speaker outputs go up to 24V peak to peak  Very noisy, and they clip between 40 Hz and 600 Hz if the stock volume knob is cranked.


I have the HiFi package, but I was reading on NAM that the base system will only do 4 volts cleanly and that's the best spot to set your system up at. The head units are the same for all of them from what I understand. I need to put my oscilloscope on the outputs and see what they look like. Might even run them through SMAART.


----------



## slade1274

MINI Audio Basics: Specs, Details, and Upgrades - North American Motoring

Don't know if this will help


----------



## Neil_J

So for anyone who's thought that this build hasn't had any progress for a while... This has been the calm before the storm, so to speak.

Here are the parts on order and on the way for the next stage of my build:

2 custom machined aluminum anodized plates from Front Panel Express - $293, ordered March 5
77 custom laser-cut acrylic pieces (1/8" clear) from Pololu, $88.95, ordered Feb.27
26 custom circuit boards, designed by me and fabricated by Seeed Studio Fusion PCB service in Shenzen, China, ordered March 4, $92.03 (double-sided, all are < 5cm x 5cm. Had to order 50 quantity, so I'll have some left over)
16 soviet-era IN-17 nixie tubes for numeric displaying purposes (more on these later)
Extruded / silver anodized structural T-slot material from 80/20 Surplus, $110.99, ordered March 6
500 3mm amber-orange LEDs and 50 3mm blue LED's from Niktronix, $114.09 (both are the flat-top wide angle type)
$140 worth of hardware from McMaster Carr (bought in bulk, everything was packs of 100), ordered March 10
$200.15 worth of miscellaneous electronic components from Digikey and Mouser, ordered March 11
$90 worth of misc. RCA connectors and fuses from Parts Express, ordered March 11
A MiniDSP Balanced with the Isolator power supply board, $167, ordered February 27
A Zed Ra from Mr. Manth, $166, ordered March 9. Unconventional for SQ but you'll see why I chose to go this route
A 72-pin mass interconnect (i1 series from Virginia Panel Corporation), purchased for an undisclosed amount :laugh::blush:
Purchased months ago: A few hundred feet of Canare Star Quad, KnuKonceptz Kollossus Fleks power cable, and several rolls of carbon TechFlex
I've spent the better part of the last month doing the design work and as soon as all the parts start rolling in, hopefully I will have some pictures soon as it comes to fruition. 




























I can safely say that what I'm building has never been attempted before, not even by me in another parallel universe. Noone in their right mind would ever think to do such a thing :inquisitive:


----------



## metalball

Man you love using CAD... Hat's off to you!


----------



## Neil_J

metalball said:


> Man you love using CAD... Hat's off to you!


Well I threw away my T-square and drafting table, I didn't know what else to use


----------



## t3sn4f2

Awesome!


----------



## HondAudio

Neil_J said:


> So for anyone who's thought that this build hasn't had any progress for a while... This has been the calm before the storm, so to speak.
> 
> Here are the parts on order and on the way for the next stage of my build:
> 
> 2 custom machined aluminum anodized plates from Front Panel Express - $393, ordered March 5
> 77 custom laser-cut acrylic pieces (1/8" clear) from Pololu, $88.95, ordered Feb.27
> 26 custom circuit boards, designed by me and fabricated by Seeed Studio Fusion PCB service in Shenzen, China, ordered March 4, $92.03 (double-sided, all are < 5cm x 5cm. Had to order 50 quantity, so I'll have some left over)
> 16 soviet-era IN-17 nixie tubes for numeric displaying purposes (more on these later)
> Extruded / silver anodized structural T-slot material from 80/20 Surplus, $110.99, ordered March 6
> 500 3mm amber-orange LEDs and 50 3mm blue LED's from Niktronix, $114.09 (both are the flat-top wide angle type)
> $140 worth of hardware from McMaster Carr (bought in bulk, everything was packs of 100), ordered March 10
> $200.15 worth of miscellaneous electronic components from Digikey and Mouser, ordered March 11
> $90 worth of misc. RCA connectors and fuses from Parts Express, ordered March 11
> A MiniDSP Balanced with the Isolator power supply board, $167, ordered February 27
> A Zed Ra from Mr. Manth, $166, ordered March 9. Unconventional for SQ but you'll see why I chose to go this route
> A 72-pin mass interconnect (i1 series from Virginia Panel Corporation), purchased for an undisclosed amount :laugh::blush:
> Purchased months ago: A few hundred feet of Canare Star Quad, KnuKonceptz Kollossus Fleks power cable, and several rolls of carbon TechFlex
> I've spent the better part of the last month doing the design work and as soon as all the parts start rolling in, hopefully I will have some pictures soon as it comes to fruition.


I recognize that shape 

That Front Panel Express is kind of pricy. I'm working on a relatively simple mounting plate for my midranges, and a 4" square with the corners cut off and a few holes drilled in it is already over $30.00, and I need 2.

Is there a way to import from Google Sketchup to make it easier? I already perfected the shape with that.



Neil_J said:


> Well I threw away my T-square and drafting table, I didn't know what else to use


I still have a bunch of drafting tools  I never had a drafting table and t-square, though. I'll have one in my "project room" when I get a house


----------



## slade1274

You need Sketchup Pro to export a .dwg or .dxf probably.

I loaded the "trial" on a second computer as they let you have like 8 hours of Pro for free. I do the modeling on my primary machine free ware, save it and move it over to the other machine to export when needed.


----------



## Neil_J

slade1274 said:


> You need Sketchup Pro to export a .dwg or .dxf probably.


Front Panel Express will import a DXF as a "free contour" which will then turn into a cutout (I think the choices for cutting bits are 1.5mm - 3mm, and a 45 degree bevel by special request). Currently the only way to import engraving is with an HPGL file, I've looked high and low for a free DXF to HPGL converter but nothing's turned up.

Me personally, I use the free contour to import DXF from Autocad, and enter all of my engravings manually with the 'm' command. Works well, but can be tedious if you've got a lot of text.


----------



## taibanl

Neil, 

Why did you choose XD over HD?


----------



## req

So far so awesome!


----------



## HondAudio

slade1274 said:


> You need Sketchup Pro to export a .dwg or .dxf probably.
> 
> I loaded the "trial" on a second computer as they let you have like 8 hours of Pro for free. I do the modeling on my primary machine free ware, save it and move it over to the other machine to export when needed.


Will SketchUp Pro let me create threaded holes like the Front Panel Express CAD software will?

I just last night figured out how to turn my 2D shape into a 3D object using non-pro SketchUp. I'm not sure if it will be modifiable once moved into the proprietary software.


----------



## Neil_J

HondAudio said:


> Will SketchUp Pro let me create threaded holes like the Front Panel Express CAD software will?


I don't use Sketchup, so I don't know. I would recommend googling it, I'm sure it's a very common question.


----------



## necrophidious

sbeezy said:


> No i think they should keep the speedo (thats a mini trademark) but keep the HU completely separated from the ECU/K-bus system so buyers and enthusiasts can change the deck without having to buy a 400mm ribbon cable and relocating the stock one to behind the speedo


I didn't relocate anything - just removed the factory head and used the metra dash kit with an aftermarket head. No issues, no problems. You lose the display under the speedo, but who cares?

Nice build - hope to get a chance to hear it at SBN.


----------



## Neil_J

necrophidious said:


> I didn't relocate anything - just removed the factory head and used the metra dash kit with an aftermarket head. No issues, no problems. You lose the display under the speedo, but who cares?
> 
> Nice build - hope to get a chance to hear it at SBN.


The R56 radio is part of the car's computer system, if you remove it then the MINI/BMW dealer will be unable to perform diagnostics on the car.. or so I hear.

That being said, I'll be going this route for SBN, since the improved S/N ratio and reduced distortion is more important than the speedo display, or the door gongs, or diagnostic capability. After the competition, I'll be installing the stock radio behind the speedo like on the NAM thread, and likely reverse engineering the speedo display and knobs/buttons into a carputer human interface device (this may be a pipe dream but it would be sooo cool, and might be able to sell it as a kit to other R56 owners). I should have plenty of room with the double-din opening for a headless Mac Mini and bank of knobs/switches.

Hope to see you at SBN next week... look for the red MINI hatchback in the judging lanes


----------



## quality_sound

That's all true. If they try to code the car without the OEM HU in, it'll fail. I want to keep the computer display, which is reall one of two reasons for keeping the OEM radio. The other is it has to stay in for PDC I believe. 

Neill, did you want that harness?


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> That's all true. If they try to code the car without the OEM HU in, it'll fail. I want to keep the computer display, which is reall one of two reasons for keeping the OEM radio. The other is it has to stay in for PDC I believe.
> 
> Neill, did you want that harness?


PDC? What's that?

Don't worry about the harness, there's just the three wires to splice and I'm on a deadline to have my car back together by early next week.. Thanks though


----------



## quality_sound

Park Distance Control. Paid for it, might as well use it. lol


----------



## Neil_J

Parts are starting to showing up at my doorstep... I got five boxes yesterday, and three today!



























There are two identical plates, the only difference being the serial number engraved on the lower left-had corner. Those are Japanese gummi bears that get included in the Front Panel Express order. 









When I originally created the rack, I couldn't find any insulating rubber grommets of the correct size... So I decided to have custom acrylic / Plexiglass pieces fabricated instead. Then, I figured might as well get some other pieces made for good measures since it's so cheap.









The 2-56 hardware shown is how the custom printed circuit boards are mounted under the amp rack plate. All hardware is either 18-8 stainless steel, or highly polished chrome/nickel.









The big rectangular hole is for a MAXI style fuse. The JL XD's don't have internal fusing, so I decided to put a fuse block by each amp.









The empty spot on the bottom right will be explained in a few weeks...









Note that these are mockup shots, I'll be heat-shrinking the techflex rough edges when they get installed permanently.









There will be 500 orange-amber LED's total, that cover the perimeter of every acrylic ring on the amp rack plate. The custom circuit boards that they're mounted to should be here Friday. This is just another mockup shot with a breadboard with a few LED's.









There are 33 blue LED's surrounding the peremeter of the amplifiers. The idea is that the cool blue and warm orange-amber will complement each other nicely.


----------



## quality_sound

That is the coolest thing I have ever seen. For real. 

Heads up, JL actually recommends AGAINST fuses by the amps. As long as the battery fuse is sized correctly, you'll be fine.


----------



## GLN305

That has to be the most awesome piece of machined material I have seen...great idea!!


----------



## GLN305

quality_sound said:


> That's all true. If they try to code the car without the OEM HU in, it'll fail. I want to keep the computer display, which is reall one of two reasons for keeping the OEM radio. The other is it has to stay in for PDC I believe.
> 
> Neill, did you want that harness?


Same goes for the HK or HiFi amps, gotta have it in the car to flash the car.


----------



## quality_sound

Agreed, but he doesn't have those options so I didn't feel the need to mention it. Another reason I didn't get HK on mine.


----------



## funkalicious

Wow! That machined panel is beautiful. Can't wait to see it completely integrated and displayed in your install.


----------



## PureDynamics

I love this install.. More people need to go the extra mile on the installs like this. Can't wait till this is finished.


----------



## Neil_J

Did anyone notice my 8 AWG remote turnon wire??  

Waaaay overkill but it's just a short 3" stub that goes to a terminal block, the real remote lead wire is 22 AWG. Figured if I brought the 22awg up to the amp, it would just look wimpy next to that beefy 4awg Knu power wire


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> Did anyone notice my 8 AWG remote turnon wire??


Yes, but it's not polite to talk about it in public.


----------



## Neil_J

Way to drop the !#@%# ball ,UPS  When I spend $42.53 on guaranteed express shipping, this is what I expect! My weekend is completely ruined now. And as an added bonus, I wasted 20 minutes on the phone trying to get a guaranteed service refund, and they're giving me the runaround. Freaking dicks.


----------



## Neil_J

OK, I had a beer and I think I've finally calmed a bit :blush:


----------



## pocket5s

Does that message/status mean they are upgrading it to a Saturday delivery? If so at least they tried to make it right. Otherwise I think you are most correct in requesting a partial refund.


----------



## Neil_J

pocket5s said:


> Does that message/status mean they are upgrading it to a Saturday delivery? If so at least they tried to make it right


Well, I _guess_ that's better than UPS simply throwing the box away and giving up 

I also love how they say "upgrade" to Saturday delivery (it was supposed to be delivered today). Like being late on a package is an upgrade. Gotta love corporate euphemisms.


----------



## Rudeboy

Neil_J said:


> Well, I _guess_ that's better than UPS simply throwing the box away and giving up
> 
> I also love how they say "upgrade" to Saturday delivery (it was supposed to be delivered today). Like being late on a package is an upgrade. Gotta love corporate euphemisms.


Logistics baby.


----------



## quality_sound

At least yours didn't have to get mailed to someone else and then spend ANOTHER $65 to get it to you...a week later. I ordered mine at least a week and a half, maybe two weeks, before you and I won't see it until next Friday or Saturday.


----------



## Salami

Neil_J said:


> Gotta love corporate euphemisms.



*Usually Poor Service*


----------



## n_olympios

The panels you made are beautiful!


----------



## twocupsofbutter

This is amazing ! Super Clean.

I have wanted to use Nixie Tubes in my install as well but probably will not.

Here were my ideas 

I would have been looking at having them display voltage and possibly having some that have a EQ , spectrum analyser type display . 
Cant wait to hear more on yours !
My main concern is the heat factor and the space factor in my Clubman.
The other would be my knowledge on building tube circuits is just enough to start a project like this and run into a problem I can't figure out. :laugh:

I built a few tube amps but this is a little more involved.


Not to hijack but this seems like the best place to post this 
Question for the Mini Owners Neil_J,QualitySound

I have a Stock Nav in my 2009 Cooper and I would love to put a aftermarket radio in . I was thinking of three routes 
1. Taking signal from the fronts and imputting that into a radio (I am not sure what the signal would be like I have the crappy Hi-fi system )
2. Deleting the screen and hiding the radio, just would need a way to get my factory display back , much like Neil is trying to do. I think this should work the same way as the non nav units . 
3. I purchased a Ibox from Focal and I would like to use it in my system this would be the best route . I want to try and have it stream wirelessly but still keep my mini controls to make it easier to use . Do you think this would work? I think this is going to depend on the Iphone and the Ibox mainly if can stream with the Mini Iphone adaptor plugged in . This route I should have a answer next week if it will work when the Ibox comes in .


Neil have you thought about using this piece?


----------



## Neil_J

Rudeboy said:


> Logistics baby.


I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I planned this down to logistical perfection (13 different packages, some custom made parts with long lead times, some next-day off the shelf), I had the mental equivalent of a Gantt chart in my head for what needed to be done, in what order, to get it done in time for Spring Break Nationals... I really hate UPS sometimes, it was a dumb mistake made by one of their underpaid staff, which happened after a price hike (the one that got put in place before gas prices started to go up... we'll be getting another one soon if we're lucky). Par for the course I guess.

Oh well, the boards just showed up.





































I'm going to play "solder that LED" for the next eight hours!


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Heads up, JL actually recommends AGAINST fuses by the amps. As long as the battery fuse is sized correctly, you'll be fine.


From my 700/5 manual: "If you are installing the XD700/5 with other amplifiers and wish to use a single main power wire, use 2 AWG or 1/0 AWG main power wire (depending on the overall current demands of all the amplifiers in the system). This large power wire should terminate into a fused distribution block mounted as close to the amplifiers as possible (within 12 inches). The fused output of the distribution block will connect to the XD700/5 with 4 AWG power wire."

At least where they are now, they're easy to get to and swap out


----------



## quality_sound

Interesting. My HD manual says the opposite. Now I want to reread it to make sure. It's a bit too late to change anything now though. lol

The install looks friggin amazing, Neil. It makes mine look elementary in comparison.


----------



## taibanl

Neil. Why xd over hd?


----------



## quality_sound

Size, top mounted controls, and he hates the HD plugs. TBH, right about know I wish I'd gone XD instead. Those plugs are SUCH a PITA to deal with and top mounted controls are a LOT easier to deal with.


----------



## taibanl

Trade??


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Size, top mounted controls, and he hates the HD plugs. TBH, right about know I wish I'd gone XD instead. Those plugs are SUCH a PITA to deal with and top mounted controls are a LOT easier to deal with.


Thanks dude  Also the XD's are smaller, cheaper, and more scratch resistant. HD's supposedly sound better, but I put my money towards better speakers, sound deadening, and interior treatment, as IMO those are your real sources of distortion. 

Plus I got to do the amp rack which has been a blast so far!


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Trade??


What are you not liking about your XD600?


----------



## taibanl

quality_sound said:


> Size, top mounted controls, and he hates the HD plugs. TBH, right about know I wish I'd gone XD instead. Those plugs are SUCH a PITA to deal with and top mounted controls are a LOT easier to deal with.





Neil_J said:


> Thanks dude  Also the XD's are smaller, cheaper, and more scratch resistant. HD's supposedly sound better, but I put my money towards better speakers, sound deadening, and interior treatment, as IMO those are your real sources of distortion.
> 
> Plus I got to do the amp rack which has been a blast so far!





Neil_J said:


> What are you not liking about your XD600?


I don't dislike it per se. Just think I may be better suited with an HD 900/5 & 600/4. Its the perfect number of channels and balance.

Right now I don't have my center or rears amp'd, just MS-8 power; so I was thinking of deleting my sub amp and adding 700/5. But then I got thinking, the HD stack better in the BMW and the money I put into an amp rack (I want to replace the ugly but functional one I built), I could probably break even selling the XD and getting those two HD.

Edit: I figure 1150 for two HD and a stack kit
vs
300 to sell XD
and 700/5 @ 400 If I were to buy
plus 300 for a custom amp rack

So I am within $150.


----------



## taibanl

quality_sound said:


> Size, top mounted controls, and he hates the HD plugs. TBH, right about know I wish I'd gone XD instead. Those plugs are SUCH a PITA to deal with and top mounted controls are a LOT easier to deal with.


Are the plugs that bad, they look cleaner!

Im serious about trading....plus $100? :wrongforum:


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Are the plugs that bad, they look cleaner!


Those plugs are pretty bad...


----------



## taibanl

Neil_J said:


> Those plugs are pretty bad...


Hmm, they fall apart? Hard to tighten down? the wires fall out?


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> Hmm, they fall apart? Hard to tighten down? the wires fall out?


Quality is good, but they're just a pain in the ass to use.


----------



## HiFiAudioGuy34

quality_sound said:


> Yes, but it's not polite to talk about it in public.


LMFAO :laugh:

Super nice install BTW. Too bad the MS-8 didn't work as planned.


----------



## Neil_J

HiFiAudioGuy34 said:


> LMFAO :laugh:
> 
> Super nice install BTW. Too bad the MS-8 didn't work as planned.


I'm still using the MS-8, I'm just not using it's high-level inputs. I have some some cool stuff planned for the MS-8 in the upcoming weeks/months...


----------



## Neil_J

Ok, I think I'm about done for the night... I got the parts installed for all 27 boards... Tomorrow I'll install them in the panel.



























This board lights up the six RCA cables









This board lights up the +12V, GND, remote turnon lead, and the MAXI fuse.









This board lights up the RLC (remote level control) lead.









These boards light up the speaker wires. Two per XD500.3, and three per XD700.5


----------



## Neil_J




----------



## bassfromspace

Neil_J said:


>


Excellent work!


----------



## subwoofery

Ok, now this is going crazy... I like it 

Kelvin


----------



## thbugman

Looking Great!!


----------



## ocblaze

This is crazy!!


----------



## HondAudio

Neil_J said:


> Parts are starting to showing up at my doorstep... I got five boxes yesterday, and three today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two identical plates, the only difference being the serial number engraved on the lower left-had corner. Those are Japanese gummi bears that get included in the Front Panel Express order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I originally created the rack, I couldn't find any insulating rubber grommets of the correct size... So I decided to have custom acrylic / Plexiglass pieces fabricated instead. Then, I figured might as well get some other pieces made for good measures since it's so cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2-56 hardware shown is how the custom printed circuit boards are mounted under the amp rack plate. All hardware is either 18-8 stainless steel, or highly polished chrome/nickel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The big rectangular hole is for a MAXI style fuse. The JL XD's don't have internal fusing, so I decided to put a fuse block by each amp.


That's really impressive. I take it you're good with the proprietary CAD software?


----------



## Blue Angel

NUTS!


----------



## slade1274

so how are the "grommets" secured to the aluminum plate- pressure fit?


----------



## Neil_J

slade1274 said:


> so how are the "grommets" secured to the aluminum plate- pressure fit?


Right now, just a layer of packaging tape on the bottom of the plate. The LEDs hold it in place from the bottom, but besides the tape and gravity, theres nothing to keep it from moving around. I may glue them in with epoxy or cyanoacrylate later, if I can figure out how to do it without glue residue being visible. The fit is a little looser than I'd like (I was being cautious and erring on the small side), so I may tack on a few replacement pieces on my next project (the cutting service is really cheap as long as you make the minimum order).


----------



## Blue Angel

Did you ever get in touch with Jim Walter regarding your subs? If your plan was to EQ the four 8's in small sealed boxes you might be able to get comparable output from two of them vented using the same enclosure volume you have right now. Jim is very knowledgeable with these 823d's.

I've played around with them in WinISD and they seem to work very well in about .65 ft3 tuned to around 26Hz. In this configuration they will be at Xmax with 450-500W driving them. This gives them a much lower rate of falloff then they have in a sealed enclosure, somewhere around 6db/oct instead of the sealed box's 12db/oct. This "should" match up much more favorably with real world transfer functions.

Using them in a vented enclosure will also keep distorion much lower near Fb. Based on your distortion measurements taken with one sub inverted, a low tuned vented design might get you where you want to go.

If you can't already tell, I'm very interested in these subs! There are some very favorable reviews of them elsewhere on this forum and on vendor sites, and for what they cost they seem like a terrific value.


----------



## subwoofery

Blue Angel said:


> Did you ever get in touch with Jim Walter regarding your subs? If your plan was to EQ the four 8's in small sealed boxes you might be able to get comparable output from two of them vented using the same enclosure volume you have right now. Jim is very knowledgeable with these 823d's.
> 
> I've played around with them in WinISD and they seem to work very well in about .65 ft3 tuned to around 26Hz. In this configuration they will be at Xmax with 450-500W driving them. This gives them a much lower rate of falloff then they have in a sealed enclosure, somewhere around 6db/oct instead of the sealed box's 12db/oct. This "should" match up much more favorably with real world transfer functions.
> 
> Using them in a vented enclosure will also keep distorion much lower near Fb. Based on your distortion measurements taken with one sub inverted, a low tuned vented design might get you where you want to go.
> 
> If you can't already tell, I'm very interested in these subs! There are some very favorable reviews of them elsewhere on this forum and on vendor sites, and for what they cost they seem like a terrific value.


Honest question here but what's your take on tuning that low (26Hz) when the FS of the woofers is close to 40Hz? 

Kelvin


----------



## Blue Angel

subwoofery said:


> Honest question here but what's your take on tuning that low (26Hz) when the FS of the woofers is close to 40Hz?


Well, considering the driver's FS is actually much higher than that when loaded into the enclosure I don't see it beeing _too_ big of a deal (52Hz vented as above, 58Hz in .3 sealed). It will depend more on this specific woofer, I think. THD measurements look promising according to the other thread.

Speaking of the other thread, the OP's freq response plot seems very odd... the low end of his output is dropping way faster than 12db/oct as one would expect. It seems this measurement was done in car with the doors/trunk open and only two of the woofers playing? If this is the case I would assume some undesirable interactions with the sub's surroundings as the response looks NOTHING like the predicted roll-off I'm seeing in WinISD right now:

0.3ft3 gives basically a smooth roll-off starting just above 100Hz, a 3db down at 55Hz, and a 10db down at 34Hz. Qtc = .787

His plot looks like the car is boosting response in the 60-80Hz region even opened up. I would hazard a guess that the two disconnected (and therefore resonant) subs are moving out of phase below that and cancelling things out.

It would be nice to see an in-car response of this sealed enclosure with all four subs operating properly... it sure would make predicting an enclosure change much easier.

Oh, and to correct my earlier post, in .65 @ 26Hz the 823D _just_ exceeds Xmax at 41Hz with 400W (not 500W), and is outputting almost 107db in free space at that frequency. Roll-off starts softly in the mid-80's, 3db down at 34Hz, and 10db down at 20Hz (with no Subsonic filter). Impedance peaks are at 52Hz and 19Hz.

In .3 sealed with 450W (similar excursion), relative to the vented box above, it's down .5db at 70Hz, 3db at 50Hz, 5db at 40Hz, 8db at 30Hz, and 10db at 24Hz (once again, no sub filter on the vented alignment).


----------



## Neil_J

Blue Angel said:


> His plot looks like the car is boosting response in the 60-80Hz region even opened up. I would hazard a guess that the two disconnected (and therefore resonant) subs are moving out of phase below that and cancelling things out.


I've not posted any in-car frequency response plots, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. For all of the plots that I posted, I included the measurement conditions, and in a few cases, conceded that the measurements taken were somewhat invalid due to improper setup, as commented by a few sharp forum members.



Blue Angel said:


> It would be nice to see an in-car response of this sealed enclosure with all four subs operating properly... it sure would make predicting an enclosure change much easier.


I'll be doing more in-depth measurements in the months ahead, as soon as my amp rack is finished, and I've got the MS-8 properly installed and squared away.


----------



## [email protected]

Neil_J said:


> I've not posted any in-car frequency response plots, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. For all of the plots that I posted, I included the measurement conditions, and in a few cases, conceded that the measurements taken were somewhat invalid due to improper setup, as commented by a few sharp forum members.
> 
> 
> I'll be doing more in-depth measurements in the months ahead, as soon as my amp rack is finished, and I've got the MS-8 properly installed and squared away.


I am pretty sure he was talking about the other thread and the OP from that thread's plots. He did segway quickly after to his thoughts on your enclosure...

I think the install is going to look fantastic. Some creative stuff here for sure.


----------



## Blue Angel

Neil_J said:


> I've not posted any in-car frequency response plots, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


Massive brain fart on my part. I went back and re-read your post. When you said, "…with the doors open and garage door open in an attempt to eliminate the room transfer function…" I incorrectly understood that as "with the CAR doors open and garage door open". Going back and looking at your test setup pics cleared that up quick.

I'll be looking forward to your next round of measurements!



Neil_J said:


> I'll be doing more in-depth measurements in the months ahead...


That's what you said MONTHS ago! 

I'm sure you'll get this thing straightened out - your attention to detail is inspiring. I had no idea that such custom fabrication services existed for reasonable prices. EXCELLENT work!


----------



## t3sn4f2

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1590299-post272.html

Dropping the MS-8? Mind if we ask why?


----------



## Neil_J

t3sn4f2 said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1590299-post272.html
> 
> Dropping the MS-8? Mind if we ask why?


Because after spending 6 months reading the entire JBL MS-8 thread, after countless hours of level matching, re-calibrating, re-equalizing, and and other bits of voodoo, I'm getting sick of it not doing what I want it to. I've followed every piece of advice, memorized every word in the manual, and still can't get it to time-align a decent center image. I heard some damn nice sounding cars at SBN last weekend. Most had a center image the size of a dinner plate, you could reach out and touch the part of the dash, and say "that is where the center image is." After all my work, my center image is just one big amorphous blob. Also it can't even begin to get rid of the resonances on the third bass note on Spanish Harlem (73 Hz), even after applying full -15 dB eq at 63 and/or 80 Hz. Andy has said if you need more than +/- 15 dB, you've got problems... Ok, the acoustics in my car are indeed terrible, now what?? Other DSP's will give me a lot more flexibility here (parametric eq and much greater cut/boost range). Also it doesn't equalize very well, even when the amps are level-matched, and the acoustic calibrations are done at the exact SPL levels instructed by Andy, verified with an SPL meter. I'm sick of auto-tuning, then re-tuning, and still not getting what I want.

For anyone not following the other SBN threads, I came in fifth place (MECA) and eighth place (IASCA) due to not being able to get a good tune out of the MS-8. That's pretty shameful IMO, considering the potential the rest of the components have :blush: I'll be back next year, but it was admittedly a bit of a blow.

As someone at SBN put it Saturday, the MS-8 will get you in the right county, and maybe even the right city, but if you're looking for tactical laser precision, you need a better weapon. Good enough isn't enough for me. Hope that answers your question


----------



## quality_sound

I've been having some difficulties in my Clubman as well. Granted, all I've done is ROUGH T/A but even playing with the crossover makes a huge difference. 

Also, what's your midbass like? Mine is PHENOMENAL. Almost to the point where I'd consider running subless.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> Because after spending 6 months reading the entire JBL MS-8 thread, after countless hours of level matching, re-calibrating, re-equalizing, and and other bits of voodoo, I'm getting sick of it not doing what I want it to. I've followed every piece of advice, memorized every word in the manual, and still can't get it to time-align a decent center image. I heard some damn nice sounding cars at SBN last weekend. Most had a center image the size of a dinner plate, you could reach out and touch the part of the dash, and say "that is where the center image is." After all my work, my center image is just one big amorphous blob. Also it can't even begin to get rid of the resonances on the third bass note on Spanish Harlem (73 Hz), even after applying full -15 dB eq at 63 and/or 80 Hz. Andy has said if you need more than +/- 15 dB, you've got problems... Ok, the acoustics in my car are indeed terrible, now what?? Other DSP's will give me a lot more flexibility here (parametric eq and much greater cut/boost range). Also it doesn't equalize very well, even when the amps are level-matched, and the acoustic calibrations are done at the exact SPL levels instructed by Andy, verified with an SPL meter. I'm sick of auto-tuning, then re-tuning, and still not getting what I want.
> 
> For anyone not following the other SBN threads, I came in fifth place (MECA) and eighth place (IASCA) due to not being able to get a good tune out of the MS-8. That's pretty shameful IMO, considering the potential the rest of the components have :blush: I'll be back next year, but it was admittedly a bit of a blow.
> 
> As someone at SBN put it Saturday, the MS-8 will get you in the right county, and maybe even the right city, but if you're looking for tactical laser precision, you need a better weapon. Good enough isn't enough for me. Hope that answers your question


Indeed.


----------



## Ianaconi

No more pics?


----------



## Neil_J

Ianaconi said:


> No more pics?


I was going to wait until next week when I finally get a chance to light it up, but since you asked...


----------



## chithead

Wholly schnikes!


----------



## Neil_J

All of this was done in the days leading up to SBN. I'm taking a few days off, and will get back to wiring up the LED's and fabricating the custom RCA's after that. I'll also post some pics of the amp rack as it was at SBN, but I gotta warn you, it was pretty ugly.


----------



## quality_sound

And the award for "Most Creative Use of Dinnerware" goes toooo.... 

I LOVE how you did those boards. It REALLY makes me hate my install now. lol


----------



## DLO13

cool - i get to start my install this weekend after looking at this... Going to feel pretty inadequate.


----------



## Hdale85

DLO13 said:


> cool - i get to start my install this weekend after looking at this... Going to feel pretty inadequate.


Aren't we all!


----------



## req

heard good things from SBN sir 

im loving the custom pcb's and such!


----------



## Neil_J

req said:


> heard good things from SBN sir
> 
> im loving the custom pcb's and such!


It was a lot of fun, but unfortunately there was no trophy or award for "most custom pcb's"


----------



## InjunV18

A member's sig on here was

"There's no kill like overkill"

I absolutely love the 8 gauge leads. That is awesome.


----------



## aV8ter

Those amp racks are badass. Any particular reason for not going with a pair of 600/1s and a pair of 600/6s?


----------



## Neil_J

aV8ter said:


> Those amp racks are badass. Any particular reason for not going with a pair of 600/1s and a pair of 600/6s?


The XD700.5 is the only one in the lineup that can do a high-pass crossover up to 4 KHz, which is useful for bi-amping the mids and tweets from a pair of dsp channels. Also from memory I believe that the 700.5 has a better S/N spec than the 600.5. The only thing I was worried about was distortion on the 75W channels during a transient on a sub channel, as I'm not sure if they share the same voltage rails. So far thankfully, I've not noticed anything like that.


----------



## pyropoptrt

Hey man, it was great meeting you at SBN. I was thinking about your install on my drive home. I think you said you were/will be running some kind of micro-controller or micro-processor and thought it might be cool to do a small fan or two under each amp connected to a temp switch.


----------



## m0sdef

This build is awesome! And the amp racks look sweet!


----------



## Neil_J

InjunV18 said:


> A member's sig on here was
> 
> "There's no kill like overkill"
> 
> I absolutely love the 8 gauge leads. That is awesome.


Soldering the 8 AWG Knu was fun. The 4AWG apparently broke my solder iron, so I next-dayed a new one from Amazon Prime (free overnight shipping, woohoo). I went with the Hakko FX888, it's a beast of a thing and cheap too. I think 12 AWG would have been easier, but Knu doesn't carry the Kolossus in that size.N everything behind the amp plate to the speakers is 16AWG, 12 AWG, and 18 for the remote turnon.


----------



## InjunV18

It's really a refreshing install. Someone that is using the experience they have and resources they've discovered to create something that's their own vision and different. 

Plus I'm a sucker for good CAD/CAM. The machine shop we work with here has some favors built up for all the work I've been giving them... need to get on it so your Mini doesn't leave mine in the dust.

I am interested to see what you decide to do for you source now.


----------



## strakele

It was good talking to you at SBN Neil. Can't wait to see what the amp rack looks like when it's all lit up. 

Your install has definitely motivated me to get some parts fabbed up on the water jet and laser cutter here at school.


----------



## turbo5upra

Hope ya don't mind if I sit in the back row and take some notes....


----------



## trojan fan

quality_sound said:


> And the award for "Most Creative Use of Dinnerware" goes toooo.... l


x2....classic


----------



## trojan fan

turbo5upra said:


> Hope ya don't mind if I sit in the back row and take some notes....


Don't fall asleep, it might be awhile....


----------



## decibelle

I would just like to show some appreciation for this guy/car/tune. Neil is clearly very creative and talented in his build. I was fortunate enough to get not one but two demos in the Mini at SBN. The second demo blew me away, after he did some tweaking with the MS-8. The center was dead-on and focused (although not from the height where I sat, but that doesn't count  it was correct for real people), voices were high and crystal clear. All-around staging and imaging was just peachy. And the impact... the IMPACT! Hits you square in the chest, it was awesome. 

There was just so much to like about this car. Excellent for jammin' too. Neil was a little more humble about his tune, but I thought it was just dandy. I hope I can hear it again sometime. Can't imagine what it will sound like then. Hopefully your hunt for a new processor goes well.

Also thanks to Neil I figured out how to work an iPad and those keyless key things in these new cars. Thanks buddy


----------



## turbo5upra

It must be height dependent- after all every time I set the rusty bucket up people tell me it's in the glove box.

I have no issues centering my car however.


----------



## Neil_J

So I've decided to go with the Mosconi 6to8 DSP. It's super tiny and seems to have everything I'm looking for (minus the Logic 7 / rear fill / 5.1, but that can be easily fixed upstream).


----------



## taibanl

So no direct comms with Andy, eh? I thought he might have given you some direct support given the visibility of your build. Definitely seemed like you WANTED ms-8 to work.


----------



## quality_sound

What about the C-DSP or P-DSP? The P-DSP is really, really small. Realistically, any of them should fit behind a side panel or under a seat if you want. Granted, I have a Clubman but the H800 easily fit behind the side panel in the hatch.


----------



## KYRGYZ

Thank you man!! You gave an idea how I will install my front speakers into my Passat b5!! 
Your install is amazing!!


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> What about the C-DSP or P-DSP? The P-DSP is really, really small. Realistically, any of them should fit behind a side panel or under a seat if you want. Granted, I have a Clubman but the H800 easily fit behind the side panel in the hatch.


The Mosconi is smaller than either of those, and has very comparable specs. Also the PDSP is a bit annoying that you have to swap a MicroSD card back and forth to see what the settings changes do. With the 6to8, it's wireless over bluetooth, and real-time. Plus, there's a real opportunity with the 6to8 to void the warranty and reprogram using PurePath Studio from Texas Instruments, like the original MindMap DSP's were. That would make things like 5.1 / rear fill and multitap FIR filters possible.


----------



## Neil_J

taibanl said:


> So no direct comms with Andy, eh? I thought he might have given you some direct support given the visibility of your build. Definitely seemed like you WANTED ms-8 to work.


Very much so. He finally got back to me and says that it must be one of my mids or midbasses out of phase, but that's BS, I know that they're set correctly (I spent the better part of this morning re-re-checking all the wiring). You know, the MS-8 is the only external DSP I know of that doesn't have the capability to flip the phase/polarity in software, which is one of the easiest possible thing to do in a DSP.


----------



## Hdale85

Neil_J said:


> The Mosconi is smaller than either of those, and has very comparable specs. Also the PDSP is a bit annoying that you have to swap a MicroSD card back and forth to see what the settings changes do. With the 6to8, it's wireless over bluetooth, and real-time. Plus, there's a real opportunity with the 6to8 to void the warranty and reprogram using PurePath Studio from Texas Instruments, like the original MindMap DSP's were. That would make things like 5.1 / rear fill and multitap FIR filters possible.


That sounds very interesting, would love to hear more about that if you do end up doing it.


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> The Mosconi is smaller than either of those, and has very comparable specs. Also the PDSP is a bit annoying that you have to swap a MicroSD card back and forth to see what the settings changes do. With the 6to8, it's wireless over bluetooth, and real-time. Plus, there's a real opportunity with the 6to8 to void the warranty and reprogram using PurePath Studio from Texas Instruments, like the original MindMap DSP's were. That would make things like 5.1 / rear fill and multitap FIR filters possible.


Seriously? I had no idea it was THAT capable. Good stuff. I look forward to seeing what you do with it.


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> Very much so. He finally got back to me and says that it must be one of my mids or midbasses out of phase, but that's BS, I know that they're set correctly (I spent the better part of this morning re-re-checking all the wiring). You know, the MS-8 is the only external DSP I know of that doesn't have the capability to flip the phase/polarity in software, which is one of the easiest possible thing to do in a DSP.


I don't think the B1.1 will either, if it makes you feel better. lol I might be wrong as I haven't owned a B1.1 in a couple of years.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> I don't think the B1.1 will either, if it makes you feel better. lol I might be wrong as I haven't owned a B1.1 in a couple of years.


Yea, come to think of it, you're right.


----------



## Ianaconi

New pics?


----------



## slowsedan01

Neil, this is the first time I'm seeing your PCB amp rack. Simply incredible. I think Kayne put it best when he said "Dat ish cray". It was great meeting you at SBN and look forward to seeing you at the FL DIYMA meet in September and getting to audition the car with the new DSP. (Let me know if you need a donation recepient for your MS-8 )


----------



## Neil_J

slowsedan01 said:


> (Let me know if you need a donation recepient for your MS-8 )


I like how someone tagged the giant MS-8 thread with "kill it with fire" :z:

I couldn't agree more right now  PC LOAD LETTER? What the **** does that mean? Cue "Geto Boys / Still" and baseball bat....


----------



## [email protected]

Hey Neil!

I really like your custome build!
One more suggestion for the ms-8, try a mls measurement to see if the speakers polarity is right (mic in nearfield of the speaker).
This week i set up a install from a buddy with the mosconi 6to8 (bluetooth modul is really awesome) and even with the wires checked we had to flip the polarity on one side!


Regards Barney


----------



## Neil_J

[email protected] said:


> Hey Neil!
> 
> I really like your custome build!
> One more suggestion for the ms-8, try a mls measurement to see if the speakers polarity is right (mic in nearfield of the speaker).
> This week i set up a install from a buddy with the mosconi 6to8 (bluetooth modul is really awesome) and even with the wires checked we had to flip the polarity on one side!


Great idea, I'll give it a try!


----------



## Neil_J

So after measuring the polarities of all my speakers with a mic and my laptop, I found out that one of my L3SE's is backwards, polarity-wise. I've wired everything correctly, but the right speaker still moves out when it should be moving in. I swapped the polarity at the amp, re-ran acoustic calibration on the MS-8, and it sounds better! Not perfect, but a decent improvement.

I've still no idea how this could happen if everything is wired correctly... I'm left to believe that it's either the L3SE miswired, or something the amp's doing. The funniest part is how everyone always says not to wire your mids out of phase, when clearly in this situation it would have made an improvement 

After the re-tune today (well after all two dozen auto-tunes), it seems like the ms-8 is still screwing the individual channel levels up, even if it gets the T/A mostly correct. The Chesky CD announcer vocal track(s) do a good job of revealing it.. The mids and highs pull right, and the midbass pulls left. I think this is a big part of the diffuse imaging that I've been seeing. I really can't wait to throw this thing in the trash...


----------



## [email protected]

Nice this one worked for you  So you wired one mid to match up with the other!
Want to try another few things before you ditch the ms-8?



Neil_J said:


> The mids and highs pull right, and the midbass pulls left.


Try the MLS measurement for the midbass again bypassing the ms-8 (cinch directly in amp, with *no* Lowpass!)

If this is correct wire it back (with ms-8) and try listening to *only* the midbass pair, *only* mid pair and then *only *highs with mono pink noise. 
Try to determine where the center/image of your stage is.... well highs not really necessary.
If theres something TA screwed up its easier to determine (diffuse image).
Also make a frequency response measurement in the nearfield of the left midbass 1cm to cone with processing on and of!


Please report back 



Regards Barney


----------



## quality_sound

And you said Andy was off base... lol

Glad it's getting better. Always nice to be able to use what you have instead of doing what I do and replace **** all the time. LMAO


----------



## Neil_J

[email protected] said:


> Nice this one worked for you  So you wired one mid to match up with the other!
> Want to try another few things before you ditch the ms-8?
> 
> 
> 
> Try the MLS measurement for the midbass again bypassing the ms-8 (cinch directly in amp, with *no* Lowpass!)
> 
> If this is correct wire it back (with ms-8) and try listening to *only* the midbass pair, *only* mid pair and then *only *highs with mono pink noise.
> Try to determine where the center/image of your stage is.... well highs not really necessary.
> If theres something TA screwed up its easier to determine (diffuse image).
> Also make a frequency response measurement in the nearfield of the left midbass 1cm to cone with processing on and of!


The ms8 IS going in the trash 

All of my polarity measurements were done with ms-8 bypassed. I wasn't using any mls software, I was simply playing a polarity track on my iPad from the IASCA 97 CD that does three positive clicks and then a negative click. iPad was plugged straight into the amps, one channel at a time (ballsy, I know, playing $500 tweeters with no xover ), and then record using my behriger mic and Audacity. Worked like a charm. I know what the ms-8 is doing at this point, which brings closure to the situation. I need a DSP that will let me do a manual tune.


----------



## slade1274

Neil_J said:


> Very much so. He finally got back to me and says that it must be one of my mids or midbasses out of phase, but that's BS, I know that they're set correctly (I spent the better part of this morning re-re-checking all the wiring). You know, the MS-8 is the only external DSP I know of that doesn't have the capability to flip the phase/polarity in software, which is one of the easiest possible thing to do in a DSP.





quality_sound said:


> I don't think the B1.1 will either, if it makes you feel better. lol I might be wrong as I haven't owned a B1.1 in a couple of years.


the B1.1 does have that option.


----------



## rodneypierce

WOW! Im going to say, so far, this is the nicest, cleanest install I have seen on here. Props to you man!!!!


----------



## Notloudenuf

I wish that I had more time to spend in your car in Daytona. I saw and heard tons of potential for a great system.
I need to spend a good bit of time getting caught up on your build log.
Excellent work and you have a great mind for this.


----------



## Neil_J

Sigh... Thanks for all the complements guys but I feel bad for all the sleeper installs with actually well-placed speakers that sound great even if they look a bit rough. They need some attention too :laugh: Mine's more of a gold-covered turd right now :surprised:


----------



## Neil_J

Hello,

Some of you folks may remember that I was working on a build, once apon a time... I'm back with pictures 




























I had to break out the Canon 5D Mk II, the little PowerShot just wasn't doing it justice :blush:





















So obviously the top rack is "lit" now :laugh: Still have to wire up the bottom rack, and hook them up to the microprocessor. I'm also waiting on a new Mosconi DSP, and seemed to have lost a box of important parts, which has slowed me down. Lots and lots of work left. I'm taking a trip to MOTD on May 4-6, and will hopefully have it mostly wired up by then, and a rough tune in place.

Oh, and the LED's pull 1/2 amp at 12 volts (multiply that by 2 when the bottom rack is complete). There are 66 blue and around 500 orange, total.

More pics to come in the next week....


----------



## fish

Damn that lighting is so badass looking! I haven't been to this thread in a while... got some catching up to do. :blush:


----------



## rytekproject

holy schnikes!


----------



## Hdale85

WoW!


----------



## quality_sound

Seriously, I would pay you to do my amp rack. For real.


----------



## metanium

That is absolutely the most intelligent/beautiful amp rack build I've ever seen. I see you made an LED-lit hole for the HD-RLC at each amp. Gonna run one and split the cable to each amp?


----------



## Neil_J

metanium said:


> That is absolutely the most intelligent/beautiful amp rack build I've ever seen. I see you made an LED-lit hole for the HD-RLC at each amp. Gonna run one and split the cable to each amp?


Yep, but I'm using a custom circuit so that I can control them individually, from my carputer. Inside the RLC is a current shunt in parallel with the potentiometer (the purpose is either to cut down on noise, or to "tell" the amp that the RLC is or is not hooked up), my circuit will have one of these for each amp, and an I2C DAC to replace each pot (not the audio type of DAC, just the regular type). I'm going with red Cat5 cable and black rj45 boots.


----------



## metanium

Neil_J said:


> Yep, but I'm using a custom circuit so that I can control them individually, from my carputer. Inside the RLC is a current shunt in parallel with the potentiometer (the purpose is either to cut down on noise, or to "tell" the amp that the RLC is or is not hooked up), my circuit will have one of these for each amp, and an I2C DAC to replace each pot (not the audio type of DAC, just the regular type). I'm going with red Cat5 cable and black rj45 boots.


Exactly what I would have done....if I knew what half of that meant.  Again, the level of planning and thought put into this build blows my mind. I absolutely love the equipment too. Kudos my man!


----------



## simplicityinsound

that is so badass! three quick questions:

1. how long did that entire thing take you? 

2. did you use individual LEDs soldered together or some kind of strip or other config?

3. it looks like the grommits and stuff that lights up are all made out of plexi...did you do it yourself or laser cut perhaps? 


i doubt i can get a customer to pay enough for something like this but i wanna try it on my next car 

awesome!


----------



## sjr033

simplicityinsound said:


> that is so badass! three quick questions:
> 
> 1. how long did that entire thing take you?
> 
> 2. did you use individual LEDs soldered together or some kind of strip or other config?
> 
> 3. it looks like the grommits and stuff that lights up are all made out of plexi...did you do it yourself or laser cut perhaps?
> 
> 
> i doubt i can get a customer to pay enough for something like this but i wanna try it on my next car
> 
> awesome!


If you go back to page 11 of this thread, post #258 you will see the vendors he ordered the parts from and page 12 show the circuit boards for the leds


----------



## santiage

WOW!!!! Nice work!!


----------



## decibelle

Neil_J said:


> Hello,
> 
> Some of you folks may remember that I was working on a build, once apon a time... I'm back with pictures


:bowdown:

Simply stunning. Incredible job Neil. Why aren't you doing this for a living...


----------



## tuner culture

Great looking install, very creative and unique - Great attention to detail. wish I had seen this thread before SBN, I would of tried to meet you, check out the car and listen. Look forward to watching the install progress


----------



## d5sc

WOW, that is some awesome and trick work!!!


----------



## tuner culture

Where can I get some fleece tape? Can I get it at local stores? Are you using heat shrink or fleece tape on the ends of your techflex


----------



## Neil_J

tuner culture said:


> Where can I get some fleece tape? Can I get it at local stores? Are you using heat shrink or fleece tape on the ends of your techflex


Google around, it's out there. I bought mine from Sound Deadener Showdown.

I'm not using heat shrink or fleece tape on the ends of my techflex.. Not enough room. The only thing that's keeping them from fraying is the melted ends and the fact that they're tucked into both the rack and the RCA boots. I'll need a better strategy if they start fraying on me again.

I'll probably use heatshrink when I techflex the speaker, power, and turnon wires.


----------



## turbo5upra

Adhesive Heat Shrink : BuyHeatShrink.com : Adhesive Polyolefin : Dual Wall heat shrink

I found this product and need to order some... I just thought I'd toss it in here since the tech flex/ heatshrink chat- glue lined so it stays put.

Neil- Props- Looks great man.


----------



## req

neil...

thats ****ing awesome.


----------



## shooter92

very impressive


----------



## knowledge

such a beautiful amp rack


----------



## n_olympios

I'm usually a man of "form follows function", but damn this is too beautiful to bypass!


----------



## bertholomey

This is certainly pushing the envelope into a new creative area. It is very cool when established installers who have done amazing things in their builds are blown away by this. I would love to get a chance to see it first hand in one of my trips to FL.


----------



## taibanl

Neil my friend...if you have time...help me decide XD vs HD (in my case HD are easier to deal with)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...dio-xd-10-1ch-hd-8-1ch-setup.html#post1616130


----------



## Thrill_House

Wow, all I can say is wow that rack looks amazing!


----------



## nepl29

Stunning!


----------



## turbo5upra

Thrill_House said:


> Wow, all I can say is wow that rack looks amazing!


.... Lol.


----------



## Point.Blank

Best build I've ever seen. Hats off to you sir.


----------



## bmxscion

I just seen this for the first time and read through the whole thing. I am deployed overseas and have been working on designing my finishing touches for a few different areas of my system for when I get back. I think now I may have to throw my designs and everything I have planned for my amp rack in the trash and start over. That kind of machined aluminum and polished hardware solid functional durable elegant look while still being easily serviceable is exactly what I am going for. Great job and thanks for the inspiration and you have helped me now get through the deployment a little easier with something even greater to look forward to when I get home!!


----------



## imjustjason

I've been heavy into this hobby since 1983, I've read and own every car stereo / audio magazine there ever was, I've spent countless hours of my life on the internet researching / learning about this hobby and that is the most gorgeous thing I have ever seen by leaps and bounds. 




Neil_J said:


>


----------



## slade1274

Fanboi.....


----------



## Neil_J

Thrill_House said:


> Wow, all I can say is wow that rack looks amazing!


Lol.. I posted it in the "best rack ever" thread in the NWSOTBS section 

Btw, 500th post


----------



## Neil_J

imjustjason said:


> I've been heavy into this hobby since 1983, I've read and own every car stereo / audio magazine there ever was, I've spent countless hours of my life on the internet researching / learning about this hobby and that is the most gorgeous thing I have ever seen by leaps and bounds.


I'm freaking humbled by you guys, I swear :blush: It's not even together yet. Lots of work to go still. The little acrylic plate that has a hole underneath it, that will house four IN-17 nixie tubes. It will really blow your mind once those are in place. If you've ever seen a nixie tube clock with blue/white LED backlighting, that was kind of the inspiration for this whole thing. They will display power, current, voltage, and RS-485 bus activity for each of the four amps. It will likely be a month or so before that part is done.

Thanks for the nice words guys


----------



## bmxscion

Maybe i missed it somewhere, but what area of FL are you in? I will be living in FL (again) around this time next year in the Niceville/Fort Walton Beach/ Destin area.


----------



## decibelle

Neil, would you ever consider doing something cool like that on your dash gauges? Speedo, rev, etc? I think similar LED lighting on that would be unimaginably bad ass.


----------



## slade1274

bmxscion said:


> Maybe i missed it somewhere, but what area of FL are you in? I will be living in FL (again) around this time next year in the Niceville/Fort Walton Beach/ Destin area.


First page of thread



slade1274 said:


> Where in florida?





Neil_J said:


> Melbourne. If anyone else from Florida is up for a mini diyma get together, let me know...


----------



## Neil_J

millerlyte said:


> Neil, would you ever consider doing something cool like that on your dash gauges? Speedo, rev, etc? I think similar LED lighting on that would be unimaginably bad ass.


I'd absolutely love to do something like that. 

It would totally kill my mullet themed "business in front, party in the back' install though


----------



## jcollin76

imjustjason said:


> I've been heavy into this hobby since 1983, I've read and own every car stereo / audio magazine there ever was, I've spent countless hours of my life on the internet researching / learning about this hobby and that is the most gorgeous thing I have ever seen by leaps and bounds.


I agree! Ran across his picks in the best rack thread.... I HAD to come to his log and find out more. 

Beautiful work sir!


----------



## decibelle

Neil_J said:


> I'd absolutely love to do something like that.
> 
> It would totally kill my mullet themed "business in front, party in the back' install though


you have far too much skill for it to be so sparsely used. To hell with the theme! 

DO EET!


----------



## cobra93

Awesome work Neil!!
Allot of us can do the work, but the coming up with the idea is something else entirely.

I'll assume you picked orange to match the nixie tubes from the start, as everything is planned out so well.

I'd love to see the finished product in person, so when you coming to Ohio?


----------



## Neil_J

I got my box carpeted over the weekend and got everything mounted back in the hatch area. The only thing missing at this point is my Mosconi 6to8 (still missing in action) and the minidsp balanced. I'll have to rock the ms-8 for the Tail of the Dragon trip this weekend. I'll hopefully get a few shots of it installed and lit up before I leave.


----------



## TexZen

Neil_J said:


> ... I'll have to rock the ms-8 for the Tail of the Dragon trip this weekend. I'll hopefully get a few shots of it installed and lit up before I leave.


I love that road. Be careful as there are all sorts of knuckleheads zipping up & down that stretch. Had 2 almost take me out on my VFR 7 years ago.

Definitely looking forward to the pics.


----------



## Neil_J

This was my first time carpeting a box. I screwed it up pretty bad on the sides and bottom, but noone's going to see that part, right?? 

More pics later this week after I get the rack semi-permanently installed.


----------



## decibelle

Looks great Neil! Nice and clean.


----------



## strakele

Very nice. Can't wait to see it with the amp rack. So I guess you're sticking with the Alpines?


----------



## quality_sound

Best thing about carpet is it's VERY easy to rip it off and redo. Looks great!


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Best thing about carpet is it's VERY easy to rip it off and redo. Looks great!


Even with liberal use of 3M super 77??


----------



## quality_sound

Yessir. It'll come right up. There WILL be some carpet that stays but it shouldn't be major sections. The new carpet will cover and of that old shag and you'll never know it was there.


----------



## pastrol

Neil_J said:


> Hello,
> 
> Some of you folks may remember that I was working on a build, once apon a time... I'm back with pictures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BLOODCLATT PRETTY!!! :guitarist::guitarist::2thumbsup::2thumbsup:


----------



## 02TurboA4

Amazing work. Really like the attention to detail. That is one killer amp rack.


----------



## Neil_J

strakele said:


> Very nice. Can't wait to see it with the amp rack. So I guess you're sticking with the Alpines?


I'm liking them more day by day. They really need a while to break in, and need a bit of crossover / eq tweaking. I'm going to keep them for a while, but will probably upgrade to something better eventually.


----------



## Blue Angel

Looking forward to your listening impressions of the subs. Are you still considering trying out just two in vented enclosures?


----------



## damonryoung

Absolutely beautiful!! 

You've got a PM...


----------



## metalball

Killer amp rack! Loving the progress, keep up the good work.


----------



## Sulley

Neil_J said:


>


Can I get this photo for my background please, 1680x1050 would be fine

This is insane, Amazing work.


----------



## Neil_J

Friday at the Minis on the Dragon 2012 car show at Fontana Resort in North Carolina









I met one other Diyma member there who had a red/black Mini like mine, but with the Integral Audio subwoofer and front soundstage kit. His car sounded pretty good, considering it didn't have any fancy processor or time alignment, and was wired directly into the stock head unit. I forgot his handle after the night of drinking that ensued later that evening :beerchug: Hopefully he'll chime in here at some point, and maybe even start a build log on diyma.



















I nabbed 2nd place in the R56 category (no audio catagory, sadly  ). I provided the music for most of the event, since the car had to be on the whole time anyway (the amp rack LEDs draw about 1 amp, so not a good idea to run with the car off).









Random shot from the Blue Ridge Parkway, my new favorite road


----------



## Notloudenuf

Neil_J said:


> Friday at the Minis on the Dragon 2012 car show at Fontana Resort in North Carolina


This picture makes all of the cars look like hot wheels. :laugh: Well I guess they technically are


----------



## Neil_J

Notloudenuf said:


> This picture makes all of the cars look like hot wheels. :laugh: Well I guess they technically are


It's a Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L tilt shift lens, sometimes I can twist the dials to do the miniature thing.. I was really struggling with it last weekend.


----------



## thbugman

I always wanted to drive the dragon. But sold the mini before we ever made it up there


----------



## req

awesome dude! your build is top notch, and your amp rack is goregeous!


----------



## strakele

Any close up pics of the whole finished amp rack?


----------



## Neil_J

None that turned out good. Getting it lit properly has proven difficult. I need to dig my strobes and octobox out of storage, and spend an hour or two balancing the ambient, flash, and LED lighting. It does look great in person, however


----------



## strakele

I believe it. Getting the lighting right for something that is lit itself is really hard.


----------



## stealth418

that amp rack is stunning! Such amazing attention to detail.


----------



## req

neil, sorry to hear about your back luck with the 2x4 on the way home!!! that really sucks!

i am glad to know you were able to get home safely, i didnt think it was a great idea for you to leave after such a long day - we stayed at jasons house because i didnt want to drive home.

it also is a bummer that the MS-8 fails in the respects we were discussing during the demo. the tonality is there, the impact is there, the dynamics are great - it really just comes down to that stupid auto tune not working with your install.

i would be thrilled to hear it again when its properly tuned sir. it was a pleasure meeting you!


----------



## slowsedan01

Cool pics Neil. The Dragon is def. on my automotive bucket list!


----------



## Neil_J

req said:


> neil, sorry to hear about your back luck with the 2x4 on the way home!!! that really sucks!
> 
> i am glad to know you were able to get home safely, i didnt think it was a great idea for you to leave after such a long day - we stayed at jasons house because i didnt want to drive home.
> 
> it also is a bummer that the MS-8 fails in the respects we were discussing during the demo. the tonality is there, the impact is there, the dynamics are great - it really just comes down to that stupid auto tune not working with your install.
> 
> i would be thrilled to hear it again when its properly tuned sir. it was a pleasure meeting you!


I think I'm going to have to sell the MS-8 instead of burning it as planned. It's gonna cost me 339 for the tire and tree fiddy for the rim. The drive back obviously sucked, but was still kinda worth it, with all the great people I met and the cars I got to listen to. It's only money, right??


----------



## Notloudenuf

Neil_J said:


> I think I'm going to have to sell the MS-8 instead of burning it as planned. It's gonna cost me 339 for the tire and tree fiddy for the rim. The drive back obviously sucked, but was still kinda worth it, with all the great people I met and the cars I got to listen to. It's only money, right??


Super sorry to hear that dude. Glad you were able to safely make if off the highway and then home.


----------



## slade1274

Been there.... similar thing happened on my way to one of Erin's meets- the run flat got me to the tire store to get a new pair of tires, but missed a great deal of the meet. (not to mention the cost of the tires, but the old ones were ~8k miles left, so not as much "wasted" money as having to get a new rim)

Thought about going after market on rims? Those stockers are quite heavy.


----------



## Neil_J

slade1274 said:


> Been there.... similar thing happened on my way to one of Erin's meets- the run flat got me to the tire store to get a new pair of tires, but missed a great deal of the meet. (not to mention the cost of the tires, but the old ones were ~8k miles left, so not as much "wasted" money as having to get a new rim)
> 
> Thought about going after market on rims? Those stockers are quite heavy.


But they're not stock, although they might be considered a bit heavy. They're made by BBS, and weigh 24.1 pounds (the runflats add another 22.0). A König feather 17" weighs about 18 pounds, and that's considered a very light racing rim. As for the weight of the runflat, I have no issue there, they've already saved my ass once. I'd probably be dead if a normal tire exploded at those speeds.


----------



## slade1274

Neil_J said:


> But they're not stock....


Sorry, I considered them "stock" as they are factory wheels. I also thought they were in the 25# range, but I must be remembering the weigh of the "S-Lite" rather than the "Web Spoke".

My bad.


----------



## Neil_J

slade1274 said:


> Sorry, I considered them "stock" as they are factory wheels.


They're genuine Mini aftermarket parts, so not factory, per se. I ordered the R90 wheels with the car, but the wheels were sent to the dealer, and the car arrived from the ship on stock silver 16's. I'm currently driving on the stock 16's until I get the replacement wheel and tire(s) in. Either way, I've got too much invested in them to swap at this point


----------



## abdulwq

i love nice clean builts


----------



## damonryoung

Neil_J said:


> The only thing missing at this point is my Mosconi 6to8 (still missing in action) and the minidsp balanced.


Did your 6to8 ever show? If so, how do you like it?


----------



## Neil_J

DRTHJTA said:


> Did your 6to8 ever show? If so, how do you like it?


Yep, it's been installed for about a week or so now. I've been trying to chase down a ground loop (annoying alternator whine) and it's gotten better, but is still there if you listen for it. Haven't had a whole lot of time to tune it, so tonally it still sounds worse than the MS-8, no imaging or staging. Should improve greatly in the next few weeks as I have time to dial everything in.


----------



## abdulwq

reminds me of Italian job movie......very nice pics


----------



## req

Neil_J said:


> Yep, it's been installed for about a week or so now. I've been trying to chase down a ground loop (annoying alternator whine) and it's gotten better, but is still there if you listen for it. Haven't had a whole lot of time to tune it, so tonally it still sounds worse than the MS-8, no imaging or staging. Should improve greatly in the next few weeks as I have time to dial everything in.


its good to hear you got that swapped and nobody was hurt beside your rim. i would have felt horrible knowing that i let you drive home had you gotten injured 


but right off the bat you should have better imaging information than the ms8 was supplying. 

have you done anything besides apply crossovers?


----------



## Neil_J

req said:


> its good to hear you got that swapped and nobody was hurt beside your rim. i would have felt horrible knowing that i let you drive home had you gotten injured
> 
> 
> but right off the bat you should have better imaging information than the ms8 was supplying.
> 
> have you done anything besides apply crossovers?


The bent rim thing had nothing to do with me being tired, it had more to do with a dumb ******* in front of me carrying too much **** in the bed of his truck  I was wide awake when it happened, I was stopping at rest areas on the way back for cat naps, and was loaded up on caffeine. I was just in the wrong place at the wring time. That's life, I suppose.

As for the 6to8, I've done rough level matching, set crossovers, rudimentary time alignment via a tape measure to each speaker, and checked that all speakers were in phase with each other. I think I have some horrible reflections going on, so I want to try WinMLS or something that can make some sense of it. If so, I'll try to relocate drivers or move crossover points before trying to dial the rest in.

It was cool meeting you and everyone else in NC, I need to hear your car again, when my ears are better trained


----------



## nismo4life

I'm personally more of a car guy than an audio guy, and I have done a substantial amount of various part installs, and engine/transmission swaps, light builds, etc. in my time and have read build threads accordingly.....this is one of the ****ing most impressive build threads I've ever gone through. Ever. Ever. You sir have serious OCD, and tremendous patience to sit there and solder god knows how many LED's. Thank you for giving me something to do for 35 minutes with this thread. 


P.S. I hope you add a turboback, and Access Port to make up for that added weight .


----------



## tesler

Neil_J said:


> The only door deadening I've done is add a few pieces of SecondSkin Damplifier Pro to the passenger side. I intend to reinforce the inner plastic skin with something heavy like lead or steel shot, and maybe some fiberglass, but that will be a big task in itself. I've still got to install the driver side Damplifier Pro, and add a set if deflex pads behind the L6SE's. Then, start fixing rattles in the outer part of the inner skin.... Still a long way to go :-/


Very nice project. Regarding the door, have you considered putting in some MLV? I am considering using MLV with foam in the door. Not sure how effective that will be.


----------



## Neil_J

So for anyone still subscribed, here is an update:


I bricked my Mosconi 6to8 and will probably have to send it back. At this point, I'd rather drive to silence rather than putting the JBL MS-8 back in. Hopefully it will be a quick turn-around. IMO the Mosconi hardware is great, but their software really pisses me off. I'm not sure if my laptop or the bluetooth adapter caused it, but it should have been able to play through whatever problem was presented.
I've been designing a handful of electronic parts for the next phase of my build. They've taken a month or so to design, and will probably be another month or so before they're built. It's going to pretty awesome, and I can't wait to get pics up.
The mids are moving up to the pillars, *very* soon. I think this will finally bring my stage together.
Long-term goal #1: I've decided to build my own DSP with 16-channel DAC from scratch, since even the Mosconi has given me trouble. It will be based off 2 of the legendary ES9018 DACs, an asynchronous USB to I2S converter, and an embedded Linux carPC that will do the audio file decoding and processing. No color LCD or anything, just very simple controls and a simple display. It will play at up to 192 khz @ 32-bit x 16 channels, or 384 khz @ 32-bit x 8 channels, at 0.0001% distortion, and 129 dB dynamic range. This kicks the snot out of CD 16-bit / 44 KHz / stereo. Having this many channels will allow me to run a center channel and rear fill. That's 3-way left/right, 2-way center, 2-way rear left/right, 4 sub channels (I've never been an SQ purist if you couldn't tell), all active with FIR multitap filters and 0.01 ms time delay resolution. This will be a VERY long-term project that will take a while to put together. The high sample-rate and low-jitter stuff isn't just an audiofool's errand, it's more of a learning platform for me, to pick up the ins-and-outs of digital signal processing, and to cut my teeth on designing some ultra low-noise circuit boards. 
Long-term goal #2: L8SE where the big speedo goes  Cover it with black hex mesh material to match the L1 Pro R2's. Buy an aftermarket speedo, and integrate the idiot lights and gas gauge into the bottom part of the dash where the A/C controls and stock cd player are. Make a nice silvery CNC'd panel there that keeps the amp-rack theme.
Long-term goal #3: Take dash out to sound deaden the firewall. I'd love to put the mids in the dash (as far back and out as they can do, bouncing up off the winshield), but there's an airbag in the way  

I'm moving to a new house on the 1st, so progress will be slow to non-existent for the next few weeks. Things will pick up after that, as I finally have a garage all to myself


----------



## bertholomey

Wow! I hate to hear that about the 6to8, but it sounds like you have awesome plans in the works. I will have to get a listen once the carputer goes in  

New house....still in FL?


----------



## decibelle

I'm interested. What's wrong with the 6to8?


----------



## turbo5upra

millerlyte said:


> I'm interested. What's wrong with the 6to8?


It doesn't want to be a part of your install cause you have a hard time driving more than 5 hours


----------



## damonryoung

I figured your quietness meant you were up to some more mad scientist schemes... I lovin' it!

D


Sent from my iPhone.... Beware of AutoCorrect.


----------



## JuhaP

This Mini is almost as cool as Mini by Team Revolution


----------



## bassfromspace

Neil,

What type of work do you do?


----------



## Neil_J

bertholomey said:


> Wow! I hate to hear that about the 6to8, but it sounds like you have awesome plans in the works. I will have to get a listen once the carputer goes in
> 
> New house....still in FL?


Still in FL. 7 minutes down the street from where I was. Moving in with the better half, who not only approves of car audio, but wants me to do her car next 

The carputer is going to be one-of-a-kind. I've no clue whether the benefits of 384k/32-bit will be of use in a car, but the DAC I'm using has definitely proved itself in the home market, and since it's eight-channel, why not use the best. The ES9018 is night-and-day difference compared to a normal cd-audio oversampling DAC... It's noticeable double-blind, it's night and day. It has to do with quantization errors and jitter reduction, and other stuff. With the near-field reflective environment of a car, I've no clue whether any of that will shine through (likely not), but it's still cheaper than some of the "audiophile" modded head unit's I've seen on here  And it will play my higher-bitrate FLAC music without down-sampling (which in a normal DAC will be over-sampled inside the DAC, causing minor distortion and artifacts to be heard. I'm still going to have a CD player in the car, but it will use a program similar to Exact Audio Copy to read each bit eight or so times to ensure that it's not reading any bit errors off the disc. Then they'll be stored in FLAC and played back as soon as each track is ripped.


----------



## t3sn4f2

This page and whole blog should help you in your venture......

NwAvGuy: Testing Methods

"BOTTOM LINE: Equipment of this level might be overkill for testing something like a $40 portable player. But it's nearly essential if you're designing or testing high-end audio gear. For example, just a small error in designing the PCB for a DAC or amplifier can seriously degrade the performance due to noise problems, grounding issues, etc. You can't just slap a D/A or audio chip on a PC board and expect to get anywhere near the manufacture's specs without some very careful design work. But the only way to verify you have it close to right, is to have the correct instruments to test with or getting assistance from someone who does. So, for design work, and testing higher-end gear, this level of equipment is invaluable."

And some product and design details on a USB DAC he just put out, which also uses a ESS Sabre DAC (ES9023).

NwAvGuy: ODAC Update
NwAvGuy: ODAC Released


----------



## Neil_J

t3sn4f2 said:


> You can't just slap a D/A or audio chip on a PC board and expect to get anywhere near the manufacture's specs without some very careful design work.


Very, very true. We do a lot of RF type stuff at work, and my job is to test all of it out, to look for radiated susceptibility and radiated emissions, and also conducted susceptibility and emissions. I'm well aware of the pitfalls, and hopefully prepared to design something that measures as good as the current audiophile stuff out there, yet is specialized enough for my needs (such a product does not exist yet, anyone else would be crazy to try and make it.. or go broke trying). PCB layout is one of my favorite hobbies. It's somewhere between a science and a black art, and is very fun as long as you don't have any horrible screw-ups. I'll be documenting it here very well (and also on diyaudio), although I'm not sure how much the average diyma user cares


----------



## bongbut

> Long-term goal #1: I've decided to build my own DSP with 16-channel DAC from scratch, since even the Mosconi has given me trouble. It will be based off 2 of the legendary ES9018 DACs, an asynchronous USB to I2S converter, and an embedded Linux carPC that will do the audio file decoding and processing. No color LCD or anything, just very simple controls and a simple display. It will play at up to 192 khz @ 32-bit x 16 channels, or 384 khz @ 32-bit x 8 channels, at 0.0001% distortion, and 129 dB dynamic range. This kicks the snot out of CD 16-bit / 44 KHz / stereo. Having this many channels will allow me to run a center channel and rear fill. That's 3-way left/right, 2-way center, 2-way rear left/right, 4 sub channels (I've never been an SQ purist if you couldn't tell), all active with FIR multitap filters and 0.01 ms time delay resolution. This will be a VERY long-term project that will take a while to put together. The high sample-rate and low-jitter stuff isn't just an audiofool's errand, it's more of a learning platform for me, to pick up the ins-and-outs of digital signal processing, and to cut my teeth on designing some ultra low-noise circuit boards


 waiting for this.
there are many projects out there,maybe this is the first for car audio


----------



## quality_sound

As much as I loved my JCW it's a MONSTER pain in the ass to work on. That and my divorce and the need for something a bit more utilitarian meant it was time for a change. I'll miss the car but not working on it.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> As much as I loved my JCW it's a MONSTER pain in the ass to work on. That and my divorce and the need for something a bit more utilitarian meant it was time for a change. I'll miss the car but not working on it.


You got rid of the JCW? What did you get to replace it?

Oh, and yea, I'll back you up in saying that MINIs are a PITA to work on.


----------



## Mless5

You didn't go to MinisOnTop didn't you?


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> You got rid of the JCW? What did you get to replace it?
> 
> Oh, and yea, I'll back you up in saying that MINIs are a PITA to work on.


Yeah. Kind of a bummer but it's replacement is FAR more usable is a LOT less fun. I got a 2012 Tundra CrewMax. On the plus side, people can easily fit in the back, the dog can go in the bed in his kennel, and I never have to worry about anything not fitting in the car. lol


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> Yeah. Kind of a bummer but it's replacement is FAR more usable is a LOT less fun. I got a 2012 Tundra CrewMax. On the plus side, people can easily fit in the back, the dog can go in the bed in his kennel, and I never have to worry about anything not fitting in the car. lol


Lack of practicality is half the fun :laugh:


----------



## quality_sound

Not when you're newly single. Normally I'd agree though.


----------



## CameronHolland

I have a few questions if you don’t mind. What ground connecting did you use in the rear of the car for your amps? I have a bit of engine noise that I’m hoping to eliminate completely. Pretty sure it’s a ground loop issue and not EMI. I just got an Alpine PAX-H800 to use as the Line Level and for processing. You have any experience with it? I’m not really blown away with the signal I’m getting. These things are really a pain if your bound and determined to use the factory head unit and controls aren’t they. I have Factory GPS so I really don’t want to do a Metra Kit and aftermarket headunit.
Thanks!


----------



## Neil_J

I'm using the 10mm ground stud that's under the passenger side rear interior panel. It sounds a lot like a ground loop, but I've done everything I can think of to eliminate it, and it's still there. I hate single-ended audio sources and the ground loops they produce. Balanced setups are superior. I'm going the batshit crazy route, and will be designing a DAC around the ESS 9018 and a custom balanced opamp output. Between that and my JL amps with differential inputs, I should have a pretty damn-near non-existent noise floor. I'd love to mod the JL amps while I'm at it.


----------



## StockA4

*Re: Door Midbass wiring*



Neil_J said:


> Stock midbass wiring was ~20 or 22 AWG. All door wiring runs through a door jamb connector, which makes it difficult to upgrade. **** you, BMW/MINI!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12 AWG Dayton speaker wire was spliced into the harness within 1" on both sides of the connector. Ohm's law works in my favor here... The voltage drop across the pins and 1" 22AWG pigtails isn't much in the grand scheme of things.


This is exactly what I"m running into right now! And I have 12 awg to go in, but I've been trying to figure out how the heck I'm going to get past this nonsense without knocking any unneccessary holes in my car.

Never mind. I just looked at the picture and answered my own question. I haven't messed with this plug for awhile, so I kind of forgot what I was dealing with.

Now, did you have to remove the door to gain access? I know you don't have to remove it to pull the plug, but I've got pretty big hands and I can't see a way around that. Unless the plug is on a long enough lead, (and I'm pretty sure it's not).


----------



## StockA4

Your plug looks like it's mounted vertically, am I right? Mine is horizontal. Not sure if that makes a difference. All I know is I have to close the door partway just to pull the thing out of its mount.


----------



## matty2013

Wow, this build is incredible! I wish I could just sit and watch you work to learn some of those skills involved with your build. 
Plus now I want to own a mini


----------



## astrochex

Neil - did you apply any heat reflecting material under the trunk area? On my 06, there is too much warmth under the carpet after my daily commute. I am going to put material on the shields adjacent to the mufflers to take care of the issue.

I'm curious if R56's have the same issue.


----------



## JayinMI

I just did a sub/false floor build in a 2012 Countryman. It wasn't too bad to work on.

I couldn't figure out how to use the radio with the HK system, tho. LOL

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

Ok I'm still alive, I haven't been frequenting Diyma much with the move and all. Sorry for the delay.



StockA4 said:


> Now, did you have to remove the door to gain access? I know you don't have to remove it to pull the plug, but I've got pretty big hands and I can't see a way around that. Unless the plug is on a long enough lead, (and I'm pretty sure it's not).


I didn't have to remove the door. I don't have small hands, but not exactly sausage fingers either. It was pretty tight, the hardest part was removing the electrical tape on the inside of the door by the connector, and re-taping after the new 12 gauge wire was installed. Not fun.



astrochex said:


> Neil - did you apply any heat reflecting material under the trunk area? On my 06, there is too much warmth under the carpet after my daily commute. I am going to put material on the shields adjacent to the mufflers to take care of the issue.
> 
> I'm curious if R56's have the same issue.


No, just the Damplifier Pro CLD tiles. Not even hot to the touch after a long drive. May be an isolated R50/R53 issue.


----------



## StockA4

I didn't have to remove the door. I don't have small hands, but not exactly sausage fingers either. It was pretty tight, the hardest part was removing the electrical tape on the inside of the door by the connector, and re-taping after the new 12 gauge wire was installed. Not fun.


Gotcha. Thank you. And thank you for having such a comprehensive build log. It's helped me out immensely.


----------



## Tominizer

Neil, how'd you dig out the carpet at the front/middle up under the dash, or did you snip it???


----------



## Neil_J

Tominizer said:


> Neil, how'd you dig out the carpet at the front/middle up under the dash, or did you snip it???


I was just really careful not to rip it on the sharp pointy stuff under there. I removed everything that wasn't welded down, including the dash trim and climate stuff. I've talked to others who have removed R56 carpet and didn't have any problem reinstalling after just letting the carpet split, instead of trying to be careful with it. So either philosophy works, really.


----------



## quality_sound

I had to cut mine. It sucked. A lot.


----------



## hondalover

imjustjason said:


> I've been heavy into this hobby since 1983, I've read and own every car stereo / audio magazine there ever was, I've spent countless hours of my life on the internet researching / learning about this hobby and that is the most gorgeous thing I have ever seen by leaps and bounds.


Yeah, what he said. That is the coolest amp rack I have ever seen.


----------



## bbfoto

Any updates?


----------



## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> Any updates?


Not much to show since my June 22 update :-/ It's hot as balls outside here in Florida, the A-pillars and the rest of the sound deadening will have to wait until the cooler Fall weather. The amp rack, DSP, and head unit should be done by middle of August or so, I hope. I've been building the head unit from scratch, more on that later. I want to have something to show before I post anything here. I will say that it's powered by a Raspberry Pi single-board computer and the DAC is a circuit of my own design, definitely audiophile grade. I can safely say that there's never been anything like it, in a car before


----------



## bbfoto

Thanks for the update.  It's 104-F at my place in SoCal today so I can sympathize with you in that regard! Luckily we don't have the humidity here to make it even worse.  I've spent plenty of time in South Beach Miami and the Keys in the past on photo shoots in sweltering heat and humidity...No Thanks, I'll pass! Don't know how the models survived it...have to use hi-temp makeup, LOL!

Very interested to see your DIY Head Unit and DAC!  Do you think you would be willing to build these or maybe supply schematics for other DIY'ers if the price was right? 

Always love to see Mini installs and yours is about the best I've seen.  My 2002 Mini Cooper S is now in the hands of my sister and she loves it. Doesn't hurt that she inherited the killer install I had put in it, and luckily she appreciates it as she is a classical guitarist. 

Please keep us updated on your project. THANKS!


----------



## robolop

The plexi where your amps are mounted on, cost me 3 keyboards already. Everytime I look at it, the drool keeps on coming and makes my keyboard short-circuit.
The install in the mini is just amazing to look at, what a gem. Especially how you’ve done it all. Damn!


----------



## Cooluser23

StockA4 said:


> Ok, as promised. I suppose if I wasn't 6'3 it wouldn't be an issue, right?


Feels like the gauges in my Fiero with my aftermarket (smaller) steering wheel. I learned to guess where the needles were in the "blindspot" behind the rim of the wheel. 

More disconcerting is that on my Fiero I have to duck to see the temperature gauge. On an old car not knowing the temperature can be scary at times.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Any teasers?


----------



## Neil_J

Very, very soon  September should be a good month with lots of pics. I'm also going to start a second Mini build log, although it will use the KISS approach.


----------



## Neil_J

Pics will be up tonight or tomorrow hopefully. Fingers crossed that everything powers up the first time.


----------



## Neil_J

Any guesses??? :laugh:


Edit: One more to make it easier:


----------



## bbfoto

^ (Electronics) From Russia with Love, LOL?


----------



## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> ^ (Electronics) From Russia with Love, LOL?


Yes! Nixie tubes from the former Soviet Union, yes  IN-17's to be correct. 










The senior members on the forum will remember these things being used as numeric displays before seven-segment LED's and LCD's arrived on the scene :laugh: They look like a vacuum tube (or "valve" for the British audience), but are filled with neon and have ten different cathodes, one for each digit. Grounding a cathode lights up that digit. Old HP calculators and pieces of test equipment used them... Oh, and the Soviet Union stockpiled the crap out of them, partially due to the embargo of semiconductors from the coalition of non-commies, and partially because they had no concept of money (and therefore no inventory taxes), so they just kept making them and making them... Much unlike modern American companies that purposely keep very low amounts of stock. Thanks to FeeBay and other sites, hobbyists like myself are now able to purchase these from the former Soviet Republic (mine came from Ukraine), and build wonderful things with them. Check out some of the Nixie Clocks and other cool stuff built with them.. 

Here's an informative pic from the Wikimedia Commons, that shows one of the cathodes being lit up:









Anyway, I'm going to put them in my amp rack, because well, noone's ever done that before. When I build the LED circuit boards explained earlier in my post, I included a voltage and current measurement circuit on the power board, along with a remote turn-on circuit, a remote-control gain circuit for the JL amps, and some other stuff. The Nixie tubes will be able to display real-time voltage and current for each amp, among other things.

The next post will start documenting the build of the eight circuit boards that hold the Nixie tubes and control them. There are four microprocessors that talk over a half-duplex RS-485 connection that allows each amp rack to talk to the others.

These are the custom boards that I designed and had manufactured in China (just got them in the mail on the 4th of September) (Shown next to a Raspberry Pi for scale)









Each Nixie tube has an LED which happens to make the tubes glow a nice blue color... each LED is PWM controllable from the microcontroller.









Anyway, sorry for all the EE talk, and I promise this all ties back to DIY audio stuff!!


----------



## bbfoto

VERY Cool, Neil! Can't wait to see these installed...will look awesome.


----------



## Notloudenuf

You are WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over my head but I'm enjoying the pictures.
I'm bringing popcorn next time.


----------



## nadams5755

awesome. i plan to build a time-sync'd nixie clock next summer. should go well on the mantle of my 1920s house.


----------



## bertholomey

We will have to see if we could entice Mr. Neil to drive up North for the Fall NC Meet to show off his new inventions!


----------



## quality_sound

Dude, that's ****ing AWESOME!


----------



## narvarr

That has to be one of the coolest thing I've seen in a while!

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nepl29

Very cool, looking forward to seeing your at car the meet!!!


----------



## Salami

bertholomey said:


> We will have to see if we could entice Mr. Neil to drive up North for the Fall NC Meet to show off his new inventions!


HELL YA!

I want to see what this looks like in person.


----------



## n_olympios

Neil_J said:


> Anyway, I'm going to put them in my amp rack, because well, noone's ever done that before.


I *love* the way you think!


----------



## Neil_J

I got the first display built today, and programmed up a rough version of the Arduino firmware. Youtube video is uploading now... I'll go more into depth on the whole thing, but hopefully the video will demonstrate what the displays can do. Right now, the tubes are simply counting up and the LEDs are flashing randomly. I've still got a lot of code to write before they're displaying anything coherent. And I still have to build the other three displays. Just getting this far was a huge feat.










Obviously the rest of the LED lighting on the amp rack will be lit... I think there are over 600 LED's total now, I lost count a while ago  Lots of cabling to wire up before they can be turned on. I think there's about 144 wires that make up the cable that will need to be fabricated (that's just for LEDs, doesn't include audio or power cabling)






Here are some older pictures of the amp rack for reference, those holes on the bottom right were intended for the nixie tubes that I'm installing now.









Just noticed it's past 2 in the morning, yikes ) I'm off to bed.


----------



## Neil_J

Some more build pictures.. more to come tomorrow hopefully.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Absolutely stellar work! I can really appreciate
the amount of time you have invested and level 
of detail you've given your install. This is right 
up with Robolop's install.

GOOD STUFF


----------



## subwoofery

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Absolutely stellar work! I can really appreciate
> the amount of time you have invested and level
> of detail you've given your install. This is right
> up with Robolop's install.
> 
> GOOD STUFF


Robolop has really impressive skills but that install is just out of this world... x10 prefer this one... 

Kelvin


----------



## FLYONWALL9

subwoofery said:


> Robolop has really impressive skills but that install is just out of this world... x10 prefer this one...
> 
> Kelvin


I just REALLY liked the early days when Rob
would post his step by step processes. Almost
enough detail and photo's so that most anyone
could try the same methods. 

I agree that this build is much more within reach
of anyone who pits in the time to learn and really
pays attention to what they are doing. Well, within
reason that is.

ITS good stuff isn't it. We are lucky to have guys
like both of them and a select handful of others.


----------



## Neil_J

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Absolutely stellar work! I can really appreciate
> the amount of time you have invested and level
> of detail you've given your install. This is right
> up with Robolop's install.
> 
> GOOD STUFF


The Beryllium BMW guy? Thanks, although I think he obviously has much more time (and money) than me  If I could do this stuff full time, with a sizeable budget, it'd be over. :laugh: I'd have (A) actually documented what I did better, and (B) would have made some of the craziest parts after purchasing my own CNC mill, waterjet, laser cutter, autoclave for carbon fiber stuff.. I could go on  *However, sometimes the lack of these things is the constricting force to force one to be extra creative and think outside the box.* The Alpine show cars (and other "fiberglass heavy" installs) are guilty for this very reason, they all look the same even with the ridiculous amount of work being put into them. Put down the chopper gun guys, and come back from the dark side :devil:


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Neil_J said:


> The Alpine show cars (and other "fiberglass heavy" installs) are guilty for this very reason, they all look the same even with the ridiculous amount of work being put into them. Put down the chopper gun guys, and come back from the dark side :devil:


I never was a real big fan of the Alpine cars. 

What is so neat with the BMW330 is the mill work is done with a router. I hear ya on the budget, I wish I just had his budget for the aluminum he used. 

Speaking of carbon fiber. Do you know what the material is called where you see craftsman use a carbon that appears to be sticky. They put the material in the mold and smooth it out. I've seen this process in aircraft and bike construction. The BMW parts are made much like any other epoxy resin layup. I'm trying to find the other stuff to build a new targa top for my car. 

Cheers and thanks for sharing,
Scott


----------



## Neil_J

I'll try to walk through all of the electronic stuff that I put into the amp rack. First, here's a list of what I was trying to accomplish:


*Remote Turn-on circuit for each amp: * Provides the ability to individually control each of the four amplifier's Remote Turnon circuits from a CarPC. Very helpful during tuning and other stuff.
*Remote Gain Adjust for each amp: * Provides the ability to programatically adjust the gain for each of the four amplifiers individually from a CarPC. The famous Buick Grand National did something very similar, although I believe he did it mechanically instead of electronically. Note: The JL Audio RLC gain control is not just a simple potentiometer; There's a current shunt circuit in there as well, that I had to reverse engineer. More on that later.
*Amplifier voltage and current measurement* Provides the ability to measure voltage and current at the +12V input to each amplifier. Wattage can be calculated from current and voltage (Note: This is total wattage including heat dissipated by the amp, which can help calculate true efficiency). This admittedly isn't extremely useful to most people, but is a neat trick, and allows me to plot peak, average, and minimum voltage, current, and wattage, to a graph, or to the nixie tube display in real-time.
*Nixie Tube Display*: As already stated above, Nixie tubes are freaking cool, why the heck not put sixteen of them in your car? Some ideas of stuff to display on them are: Voltage, current, power (wattage), dB(SPL) as measured with a separate mic during (gasp) SPL events, time and date, countdown to something...., Song track# and position from CarPC, etc...
*PWM-controllable orange-amber LED "rings" for each wire bundle*: As shown in above posts. 
*PWM-controllable blue LEDs to illuminate the acryllic base underneath the amp rack*. As shown in above posts. This was done to balance the "warm" glow from the orange-amber LEDs with some "cool" blue.
*PWM-controllable blue LEDs under the Nixie tubes* to illuminate the nixie glass blue. The Russian IN-17's are very special in that they light up really well when you shine an LED underneath them. They truly look amazing in person, it's something you have to see for yourself.
*High-voltage power supply to drive the Nixie tubes*: Provides +170VDC to the nixie tubes
*Half-duplex RS-485 data bus*: Provides a communications link to all of the other crazy accessories that I may come up with in the car. The CarPC is the "master", and can communicate with up to 65535 "slaves" on the bus, using a custom protocol that I am currently writing.
*Power management circuit*: Ensures that the LEDs and Nixies (which can draw over 1 amp of current) do not kill the battery. Unless the CarPC explicitly tells the controller boards to turn on, it only draws a matter of microamps. This was tested extensively before the circuit boards were finalized and ordered.

Each group of LEDs are individually controllable in brightness, and can be sequenced from the CarPC, either from an input file, or can be setup to react to the music. The CarPC won't run Windows, so I'm not worried about the LED's lagging or glitching or anything 

Here are the list of circuit board for each amplifier. There are four amplifiers, so that is *30 custom boards total*. Each circuit board was designed and built by me, not purchased from a store or bought from a kit. 

*Controller Board*:Contains an Atmega328 microprocessor, running the Arduino bootloader. This the brain that talks to the other PWM boards, the nixie board, and other controller boards.
*Nixie Board*: Contains the four IN-17 nixie tubes and 9 PWM-controllable status LEDs for display purposes. Also contains the high-voltage power supply to drive the nixies.
*Amplifier Power Measurement and Distribution Board*: This board accepts power from the battery / alternator, runs it through a fuse holder and voltage/current measurement circuit, and then feeds it to the amp. It also routes the remote-turnon circuit from the controller board to the amp.
*PWM LED board - Power*: Contains 36 orange-amber 3mm LEDs to illuminate the MAXI fuse holder, +12V, Ground, and Remote Turn-on wires.
*PWM LED Board - RLC*: Contains 6 orange-amber 3mm LEDs to illuminate the JL Audio RLC gain control wire.
*PWM LED Board - RCA*: Contains 36 orange-amber 3mm LEDs to illuminate the six RCA cables.
*PWM LED Board - Speaker Wires (1)*: Contains 21 orange-amber 3mm LEDs to illuminate Channels 1 and 2 of the JL Audio XD700.5 and/or XD500.3
*PWM LED Board - Speaker Wires (2)*: Contains 21 orange-amber 3mm LEDs to illuminate Channels 3 and 4 of the JL Audio XD700.5. Note: This board is not used on the XD500.3
*PWM LED Board - Speaker Wires (3)*: Contains 21 orange-amber 3mm LEDs to illuminate the subwoofer channels of the JL Audio XD700.5 and/or XD500.3

Here are the boards as shown in CAD:


----------



## Neil_J

Here's the circuit for the Amplifier Power Measurement and Distribution Board.











The INA169 is a neat little chip that reads a current-sense resistor in series with the load and outputs a nice linear voltage that can be read with a microprocessor analog-to-digital converter. The current sense resistors are very special in that they're ultra-high precision, low ppm per degree C, and use Kelvin configuration. Since they're only a milli-ohm of resistance, I'm not that worried about it affecting SQ :surprised:

For the voltage measurement, a voltage divider is used to avoid blowing up the microprocessor. I didn't include any circuit protection, so hopefully nothing bad ever happens... I do keep a fire extinguisher in my car just in case 

The +12V and GND traces are VERY beefy on the board, as they pass all of the current to the amp. Having quick access to the fuses has proven to be VERY convenient.



Up next... the JL Audio RLC gain control circuit.


----------



## Neil_J

JL Audio makes this great little gadget that plugs into your JL amp and allows you to control the gain from the driver's seat:










That's great if you have one amp. What about if you have four? Well, you can buy one of those four-way phone splitters at Wal-Mart. That actually works. But what about if you want to control gain from a CarPC?

I opened my RLC up to see what was inside. I assumed just a potentiometer, right? Nope, JL got clever (as always):








The above image is what I came up with after reverse-engineering the RLC. Obviously the 10K potentiometer creates a voltage divider between 5V and 0V and returns a proportional voltage to the amplifier's opamps... Pretty straightforward. But what about the other parts? The LMV431B is an adjustable shunt regulator. It can be used as a current source or sink among other things. In this case, I believe that JL Audio is using it to draw a tiny bit of current that the amplifier can then sense. Which tells the amp whether or not the RLC is plugged in. This is useful, I believe, because it's less likely to pick up noise from an unconnected input. Very clever.

So how do we interface this to a CarPC? Well, we can replace the potentiometer with a digital potentiometer. Then duplicate the circuit for each amp. I decided on the Microchip brand of digital pots, specifically the MCP4010-I/SN. This is what I came up with:










The digital pot has a SPI bus, which my Arduino-clone microprocessor can speak. I did not tie the amplifier's RLC ground to the controller board's ground, to avoid nasty ground loops. This is the beauty of a digital pot. Before the boards were ordered, I prototyped the circuit on a breadboard, with the amp on the bench, and played pink noise into it via my iPad. Then ramped the gain up and down with the microprocessor at about a 1-2 second rate. Sounded beautiful, like little waves rolling in on a beach  I'll have to record it and post here when I get around to it.

Disclaimer: I'm hoping JL Audio will not object and pull DMCA crap like other companies have when forum members have reverse-engineered their accessories (Apple, cough cough). I'm pretty sure they're better than that. I am considering it "fair use", as I'm not recreating the circuit for profit, and am only sharing it here for educational purposes. Now if I decide to mod my XD amps... That's another story, I might exercise a bit more self-censorship there.


----------



## falstaff

Everyone Ive contacted about building a nixie voltage display has said its not worth it due to the short life span of tubes. 

I had the same idea but just dont have the knowledge to put everything together myself. 

Goodluck. Hope to see the car in a few weeks in Orlando


----------



## Neil_J

falstaff said:


> Everyone Ive contacted about building a nixie voltage display has said its not worth it due to the short life span of tubes.
> 
> I had the same idea but just dont have the knowledge to put everything together myself.
> 
> Goodluck. Hope to see the car in a few weeks in Orlando


The nixies in my car will not be enabled 100% of the time. Really, it will only be on at car audio events and other car shows. A nixie tube's life is usually rated in the thousands of hours, so I doubt I'll ever have to replace them. If I do, no worries, I horde them so I will have spares standing by.


I have the IN-18 blue dream clock in my "lab" area on top of my desk hutch... it's been going strong for a very long time now.








Now you can see where a lot of my inspiration during the design process came from


----------



## robolop

subwoofery said:


> Robolop has really impressive skills but that install is just out of this world... x10 prefer this one...
> 
> Kelvin


THX Kelvin. lol


----------



## falstaff

Neil_J said:


> The nixies in my car will not be enabled 100% of the time. Really, it will only be on at car audio events and other car shows. A nixie tube's life is usually rated in the thousands of hours, so I doubt I'll ever have to replace them. If I do, no worries, I horde them so I will have spares standing by.
> 
> 
> I have the IN-18 blue dream clock in my "lab" area on top of my desk hutch... it's been going strong for a very long time now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you can see where a lot of my inspiration during the design process came from


Yes I love nixie tubes. I'd ask if you could put something together for me but I know your up to your eyes in your install. 

Been looking fo rthe right clock setup for my home as well.


----------



## subwoofery

robolop said:


> THX Kelvin. lol


lol... It's just a taste thing, nothing else really. I'm not too much into carbon fiber but just love what you did with your trunk. 
Also love your speaker brand choice  Focal fan @ heart. 

Kelvin


----------



## strakele

Freakin awesome dude. Mind sharing where you have the boards for this stuff made? Curious how wide open the options are.


----------



## bbfoto

Absolutely Fantastic, Neil!

Thanks for posting all of the photos and schematics, and for the detailed writeup. Your skills are just _BEYOND!_ Mad props. I'm surprised that you didn't just design and build custom amps for your install as well, LOL! 

Just wiring up relays is getting too tedious for me these days, haha. I can't even begin to imagine wiring all of that up...and in a Mini!

GOOD STUFF x Infinity!


Oh, BTW, regarding the JL Audio RLC, do you happen to know if the Alpine RUX-KNOB for the 2nd Gen PDX amps uses a similar circuit? They look almost identical and use the same 4 connectors in the RJ45 jack. You can gang multiple amps together the same way with the RUX-KNOB using an RJ45 splitter as well. Just wondering?


----------



## robolop

I would make me veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery happy if I would have some more knowledge on the things you adjust on the electronics for the mini.
Just an amazing project to follow


----------



## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> Oh, BTW, regarding the JL Audio RLC, do you happen to know if the Alpine RUX-KNOB for the 2nd Gen PDX amps uses a similar circuit? They look almost identical and use the same 4 connectors in the RJ45 jack. You can gang multiple amps together the same way with the RUX-KNOB using an RJ45 splitter as well. Just wondering?


No clue, but if you send me the alpine gain control, I would be happy to reverse engineer it for you. High-res digital pictures would work, too.


----------



## InjunV18

Great work man... you are Usain Bolting your Mini from the rest of the motoring community. I know it's not a contest, but I'm really going to have to step it up. Again, awesome job and creativity. Definitely enjoying this.


----------



## InjunV18

Also, the nixie tube amber looks very close to the BMW/Mini amber. Is that the case?

Thanks!


----------



## bbfoto

Neil_J said:


> No clue, but if you send me the alpine gain control, I would be happy to reverse engineer it for you. High-res digital pictures would work, too.


I'll try to crack the Alpine RUX-KNOB open and take some hi-res pics in a few days when I have some free time again. Thanks!


----------



## Neil_J

InjunV18 said:


> Also, the nixie tube amber looks very close to the BMW/Mini amber. Is that the case?


The Mini amber lighting is a bit more saturated than the nixies, but it's close enough for me, lol  I want to redo the speedometer with Nixies and some other fun stuff, but first I've got to tie up the loose ends with this crazy amp rack that has just dragged on and on ...


----------



## Neil_J

strakele said:


> Freakin awesome dude. Mind sharing where you have the boards for this stuff made? Curious how wide open the options are.


I'll try to write up a post with the full process that I go through to create a board, including suppliers and tools. Sounds fun and educational to me


----------



## Tominizer

This is way over my head. I'm just going to install a 15" in the back of the Mini and call it something special.


----------



## thehatedguy

More than likely it is prepregnated carbon fiber "dry carbon fiber." You have to autoclave the pieces once it's laid up. That is structural carbon fiber.

The carbon fiber we typically use is wet, meaning we have put wet resin in it and let it cure out. It's not for structure, just looks. I mean it's about as strong as fiberglass cloth.

On a side note there was a guy on Steve Meade's forum bragging about all of the carbon fiber he put inside his speaker box...it was all wet CF and did the same as fiberglass would have done. And it looked like total ass...but that is neither here nor there.



FLYONWALL9 said:


> Speaking of carbon fiber. Do you know what the material is called where you see craftsman use a carbon that appears to be sticky. They put the material in the mold and smooth it out. I've seen this process in aircraft and bike construction. The BMW parts are made much like any other epoxy resin layup. I'm trying to find the other stuff to build a new targa top for my car.
> 
> Cheers and thanks for sharing,
> Scott


----------



## pocket5s

thehatedguy said:


> More than likely it is prepregnated carbon fiber "dry carbon fiber." You have to autoclave the pieces once it's laid up. That is structural carbon fiber.
> 
> The carbon fiber we typically use is wet, meaning we have put wet resin in it and let it cure out. It's not for structure, just looks. I mean it's about as strong as fiberglass cloth.
> 
> On a side note there was a guy on Steve Meade's forum bragging about all of the carbon fiber he put inside his speaker box...it was all wet CF and did the same as fiberglass would have done. And it looked like total ass...but that is neither here nor there.


That can be a tad misleading. Dry is pre-impregnated, i.e. the resin in already there. And it does take heat to cure.

Wet is laid out manually. You pour the resin in. The one downside is that you are more likely to over resin it, thus adding weight and wasting material. However you can still use a vacuum bag and heat for curing (as you can with fiberglass), although not required especially if you are doing "show" pieces. In and of itself wet isn't any more weak. Carbon fiber is carbon fiber.


----------



## thehatedguy

Why do you want to argue with me when I said the same thing?


----------



## pocket5s

thehatedguy said:


> Why do you want to argue with me when I said the same thing?


We didn't, when it came to the strength aspect. The implication was that a wet layout is not stronger than a wet layout of fiberglass. I was merely clarifying, not arguing.


----------



## thehatedguy

Prepreg has historically been vued as stronger than a wet lay up, even vaccum bagged parts.

Who do you know who vaccum bags anything that has to do with car audio?


----------



## pocket5s

no one I know of. Only extensive carbon fiber stuff I've seen has been from robolop, but I don't know if he bags any of his stuff.


----------



## thehatedguy

He does not...or didn't when I started that thread. His is cosmetic, no need to bag it. I never vaccum bagged any CF or kevlar in my old installs because the deep look you want comes from an excess of resin in the top coat.


----------



## Neil_J

Please don't make me post more electronics stuff to get this thread back on topic :laugh: Noone want's that!!


----------



## quietfly

and here i thought we had some major updates..... Carbon fiber BAH anyone worth his salt knows Kelvar is where its at !!!


----------



## quietfly

PS the NIXIE tubes are INSANE.... Love the idea.... very "steam punk" to me


----------



## thehatedguy

I love the electronics stuff! Wish I had the skills to do that stuff.


----------



## n_olympios

thehatedguy said:


> I love the electronics stuff! Wish I had the skills to do that stuff.


Same here. :blush:


----------



## thehatedguy

Any chance you could make a volume control for the JL amps that seems to work on it's whole moving range? Mine seemed to only do something for about a 1/4 turn.


----------



## Neil_J

thehatedguy said:


> Any chance you could make a volume control for the JL amps that seems to work on it's whole moving range? Mine seemed to only do something for about a 1/4 turn.


Sure, I could easily put together a kit that could have any mapping you could think of... With the added bonus of being controllable from a CarPC, for those who are of that persuasion 

Another nice feature for those that use the RLC as a bass control, may be to add a "detent" position that puts the bass to a "known" measured level for SQ, and then let's the user vary it up or down, with the ability to always go back to that calibrated spot... Great for those times when "Bass Cannon" comes up on Pandora


----------



## Neil_J

Progress 9/13/2012: It looks like I'll have the amp rack installed by this weekend. Still a ton of wiring to do.. I've been making cables for the last two days straight, for the PWM LED channels. I did all of the JL RLC cabling last night (which came out VERY nice, might I say). Next is the half-duplex RS-485 data bus that connects all of the controller boards and the CarPC.

Oh, and I've finally decided to go with Mac Mini as a CarPC. One of the older ones with the CD/DVD slot that I've been using as an HTP for the last few years. Will still be "headless" i.e. no TFT display (just a Matrix Orbital Graphic LCD and some custom knobs/buttons). I need to buy a Carnetix CNX-P1900 DC-DC power supply, and an SSD drive to replace the spinning hard disk. Then work on a custom panel to get it all into the dash.

The frontend will be COMPLETELY custom, because everything out there sucks. I'm going to decode the audio files using open-source libraries, do all of the DSP myself, and output to my completely custom DACs that I've yet to design.

This is a DIY forum, right???


----------



## screamatamonkey

Neil_J said:


> Progress 9/13/2012: It looks like I'll have the amp rack installed by this weekend. Still a ton of wiring to do.. I've been making cables for the last two days straight, for the PWM LED channels. I did all of the JL RLC cabling last night (which came out VERY nice, might I say). Next is the half-duplex RS-485 data bus that connects all of the controller boards and the CarPC.
> 
> Oh, and I've finally decided to go with Mac Mini as a CarPC. One of the older ones with the CD/DVD slot that I've been using as an HTP for the last few years. Will still be "headless" i.e. no TFT display (just a Matrix Orbital Graphic LCD and some custom knobs/buttons). I need to buy a Carnetix CNX-P1900 DC-DC power supply, and an SSD drive to replace the spinning hard disk. Then work on a custom panel to get it all into the dash.
> 
> The frontend will be COMPLETELY custom, because everything out there sucks. I'm going to decode the audio files using open-source libraries, do all of the DSP myself, and output to my completely custom DACs that I've yet to design.
> 
> This is a DIY forum, right???


Manly...


----------



## quietfly

Neil_J said:


> Progress 9/13/2012: It looks like I'll have the amp rack installed by this weekend. Still a ton of wiring to do.. I've been making cables for the last two days straight, for the PWM LED channels. I did all of the JL RLC cabling last night (which came out VERY nice, might I say). Next is the half-duplex RS-485 data bus that connects all of the controller boards and the CarPC.
> 
> Oh, and I've finally decided to go with Mac Mini as a CarPC. One of the older ones with the CD/DVD slot that I've been using as an HTP for the last few years. Will still be "headless" i.e. no TFT display (just a Matrix Orbital Graphic LCD and some custom knobs/buttons). I need to buy a Carnetix CNX-P1900 DC-DC power supply, and an SSD drive to replace the spinning hard disk. Then work on a custom panel to get it all into the dash.
> 
> The frontend will be COMPLETELY custom, because everything out there sucks. I'm going to decode the audio files using open-source libraries, do all of the DSP myself, and output to my completely custom DACs that I've yet to design.
> 
> This is a DIY forum, right???


DAMN you are ambitious....


----------



## AccordUno

Neil, not to knit pick you but your diagram Amprack-Powerbottombrd.png you have a few items labeled on the portion that goes to the controller board you have pin 1 (gnd) going to +12V going to amp and pin 2(+12V) going to gnd to amp.. Is that a typo? Just curious, as yes the electronics is very intriguing..


----------



## Neil_J

AccordUno said:


> Neil, not to knit pick you but your diagram Amprack-Powerbottombrd.png you have a few items labeled on the portion that goes to the controller board you have pin 1 (gnd) going to +12V going to amp and pin 2(+12V) going to gnd to amp.. Is that a typo? Just curious, as yes the electronics is very intriguing..


Yep, that's a typo. The larger text is correct, the smaller gray text is wrong. I probably swapped the pins during layout to make routing easier, but forgot to change the text. 

At work, we get "peer reviews" to prevent this sort of thing. At home, I usually just wait a few days and check it again, and even then sometimes miss stuff. So far, knock on wood, I've only had two bits of rework on this project. Both were due to misreading data sheets, both luckily were easily correctable.


----------



## AccordUno

Other than that, definitely a cool project..


----------



## Neil_J

Glad to see someone's actually paying attention


----------



## n_olympios

Hey, we all may not search your diagrams pin per pin looking for errors* but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate the massive work you've done and great inspiration you've given us. 

*j/k, AccordUno.


----------



## AccordUno

n_olympios said:


> Hey, we all may not search your diagrams pin per pin looking for errors* but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate the massive work you've done and great inspiration you've given us.
> 
> *j/k, AccordUno.


<insert fu smiley face> :laugh::laugh: J/K.. 

It's wasn't that man, I'm trying to follow along with what he is doing.. There's a lot of ideas popping in my head at the moment from looking at this install. unfortunately due to space (Crew Cab truck), some I can implement, but definitely worth following.. Between this, Robolop, and Bing, I now wish I had a sedan to work on..


----------



## bbfoto

Neil_J said:


> Sure, I could easily put together a kit that could have any mapping you could think of... With the added bonus of being controllable from a CarPC, for those who are of that persuasion
> 
> Another nice feature for those that use the RLC as a bass control, may be to add a "detent" position that puts the bass to a "known" measured level for SQ, and then let's the user vary it up or down, with the ability to always go back to that calibrated spot... Great for those times when "Bass Cannon" comes up on Pandora



This would be awesome, especially having the detent, and also the PC control. But could you also make it manually-switchable so that you could individually control the gain on a multi-amp system? Are DP or Quad-Pole micro- or mini-switches available? This way you could keep it set to your subwoofer amp for convenience, but without too much trouble you could switch to adjust your other amplifiers individually when needed.

Again, fantastic work, Neil! I'm really looking forward to your custom source unit, DSP, and "front end" interface. Your ideas sound perfect...touchscreens are great for some things, but in the car, I still prefer physical knobs and buttons for basic controls. 

Integrating the steering wheel controls (love these on the Mini Cooper especially) with a ~7" tablet with digital output is the ideal solution for me. It eliminates the hassles of the PSU/boot time/sleep/hibernate/wake/shutdown/heat management/media file scanning time issues of a CarPC setup. Plus, I can take my "head unit" with me for everyday use and to help prevent theft.

The biggest problem now is developing a really car-friendly GUI/front end for the tablet. Some of the custom "launcher" apps do a fairly good job of allowing you to resize and arrange your icons or virtual buttons, but nowhere near perfect.

Refreshing every 5 minutes to check your progress, LOL! Thanks!


----------



## quietfly

I dno't know if you've seen the "one pannel" design of the new tesla s. its a 17 inch touchscreen thats suppose to have an open source gui...... looks fantastic just saw the demo in midtown very very slick


----------



## Neil_J

So I got the remaining bits and pieces put together yesterday, so the amp rack is officially complete (save for future firmware updates, yada yada). 


I'm now leaving the country for a much needed vacation with the better half 




I'll be back in time for the DIYMA Meet/Greet/Tune in Orlando, FL.  on September 29th. 
If you'd like to see and hear the Mini, or would just like to shoot the sh-t, please stop by, just look for the toy car with the blinding LEDs. Until then.......


----------



## Neil_J

I've started a thread about my upcoming CarPC build... Generic info will be in that thread, and the actual build log/work will be in this thread.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-pc-forum/138206-2011-mini-cooper-carpc-build.html


----------



## optimaprime

holly sheep **** this is awesome if you and bing and robolop could build together you guys might be able to build a freaking death star!


----------



## FLYONWALL9

thehatedguy said:


> He does not...or didn't when I started that thread. His is cosmetic, no need to bag it. I never vaccum bagged any CF or kevlar in my old installs because the deep look you want comes from an excess of resin in the top coat.


Thank you for your replies and help. I am looking for the pre-impregnated stuff for structural fabrication. Think that is mostly because I honestly didn't know what it was called or the technical terms for it. Hard to find something when you don't know what its called. I've just been unable to find it. I'm trying to build a VERY LIGHT strong carbon targa top for myself and also resale. I did know about over saturation and carbon fiber, though that isn't just a problem with that material. It is widespread when you see most people building large fiberglass enclosures.


----------



## Gadget01

optimaprime said:


> holly sheep **** this is awesome if you and bing and robolop could build together you guys might be able to build a freaking death star!


I was thinking.... if Robolop's BMW and Neil's Mini had some kind of love-child together, what that might look like.

Thanks for posting, Neil. It's truly inspirational. I went looking into your build thread for ideas since I'm doing some installation work on my friend's Mini Clubman. When I saw your Deans connectors, I knew you must also be into R/C and the cool points just keep going up logarithmically. I just spent the last few hours going through the entire thing. This is absolutely world-class wicked, man.

Bravo!


----------



## Tominizer

Neil,

Not sure if you covered this, but I know you mentioned it. Centre channel in the center vent on the dash. I had that dash panel off and it's do-able. Further supported by my Mini dealership buddies who say that the vent is kinda bogus and is on at all times when the fan is on. They mentioned sealing it up gives more air pressure to the other operational vents. I haven't tested this out yet but it sounds plausible. I've run spare wires there just in case I decide to carve it up. 

BTW, as always, great work. I'm almost done my Clubman. I will post up when she's operational on the audio front. Your work has been inspirational in many areas of my Mini install.


----------



## Neil_J

Tominizer said:


> Not sure if you covered this, but I know you mentioned it. Centre channel in the center vent on the dash. I had that dash panel off and it's do-able. Further supported by my Mini dealership buddies who say that the vent is kinda bogus and is on at all times when the fan is on. They mentioned sealing it up gives more air pressure to the other operational vents. I haven't tested this out yet but it sounds plausible. I've run spare wires there just in case I decide to carve it up.


My first crazy idea was to put the center channel in the speedometer :surprised: Basically machine a plate where the gauge was, and make it into a baffle. Anything from an L3SE up to a L8SE. However, the more time I spend reading up on acoustics and general placement rules, the more I think it would be a bad idea. Trying to match up a center tweeter to the L8SE would be a nightmare, although I'd love to attempt it with a CNC'd diffraction ring.

So I've wised up and will probably put the center channel in the vent, as you described. My only problem is that I actually like the center vent. I keep most of the dash vents blocked, and the center vent does a great job heating/cooling the cabin without blowing air directly on your face. 

I'm willing to give up the center vent as a sacrifice to the SQ Gods if necessary. Any idea how big of a speaker I can fit in it?

Here's a link to a thread on NorthAmericanMotoring that I started last year, asking about the vent:
Center vent removal? (the one above the speedo) - North American Motoring



















_(Vehicle schematics posted above for the non-MINI owners reading)_

All in all, I'm a bit worried about hacking up the dash just to find out that the acoustics are terrible. Guess there's one way to find out.


----------



## accord520

Neil_J said:


> That's kind of a mean thing to say, lol
> 
> The stock HU won't really prevent me from doing anything. I'll be wiring an Apple Airport Express under the seat, which will give me A2DP audio streaming from my iPhone and iPad directly into the JBL MS-8 aux input. I don't listen to CD's or FM radio, and XM/Sirius never sounded great to begin with. This should at least guarantee me a direct signal path where it counts (my iTunes collection)


That's a pretty neat idea, a few pros/cons I see though, high quality audio through Airplay instead of bluetooth streaming, but no data connection while connected, which isn't completely necessary except for streaming services.


----------



## HondAudio

Neil_J said:


> My first crazy idea was to put the center channel in the speedometer :surprised: Basically machine a plate where the gauge was, and make it into a baffle. Anything from an L3SE up to a L8SE. However, the more time I spend reading up on acoustics and general placement rules, the more I think it would be a bad idea. Trying to match up a center tweeter to the L8SE would be a nightmare, although I'd love to attempt it with a CNC'd diffraction ring.
> 
> So I've wised up and will probably put the center channel in the vent, as you described. My only problem is that I actually like the center vent. I keep most of the dash vents blocked, and the center vent does a great job heating/cooling the cabin without blowing air directly on your face.
> 
> I'm willing to give up the center vent as a sacrifice to the SQ Gods if necessary. Any idea how big of a speaker I can fit in it?
> 
> Here's a link to a thread on NorthAmericanMotoring that I started last year, asking about the vent:
> Center vent removal? (the one above the speedo) - North American Motoring
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(Vehicle schematics posted above for the non-MINI owners reading)_
> 
> All in all, I'm a bit worried about hacking up the dash just to find out that the acoustics are terrible. Guess there's one way to find out.


Whoa... that rendering is sweet. Who made that?


----------



## Neil_J

HondAudio said:


> Whoa... that rendering is sweet. Who made that?


Probably some German guy at the BMW design center in Munich Germany  it's from the RealOEM site, but I'm pretty sure they use/steal the pictures from BMW's parts ordering system.


----------



## trumpet

This thread has gotten shared on Facebook.


----------



## HondAudio

Neil_J said:


> Probably some German guy at the BMW design center in Munich Germany  it's from the RealOEM site, but I'm pretty sure they use/steal the pictures from BMW's parts ordering system.


Is there one for Toyotas? :surprised:


----------



## turbo5upra

HondAudio said:


> Is there one for Toyotas? :surprised:


toyodiy might have something for ya- have to join to see the fiche.


----------



## evilspoons

accord520 said:


> That's a pretty neat idea, a few pros/cons I see though, high quality audio through Airplay instead of bluetooth streaming, but no data connection while connected, which isn't completely necessary except for streaming services.


I think (I haven't tested this myself) if you modify your Airport Express so that the DHCP parameters it passes out do not include a gateway address your iDevice will continue to use its cellular radio to connect to the internet.

Someone on NASIOC (Subaru Impreza forums) did this. I'll try to find the link...

EDIT: Here we go.



> Also good observation with the cellular data question. As it stands, iOS always prioritizes WiFi connections over Cellular. Since the AE doesn't have access to the internet, your iDevice will be useless at accessing the internet... unless you change the AE's settings. I plugged the AE into my computer and messed around with the router settings and made sure it didn't have an internet gateway address. This works great and it allows Airplay to co-exist with cellular data requests.


Thread here.

Also, I forgot to mention that this thread is an excellent read as an electrical engineer... I love the idea of custom fabbing electronic stuff. Keep up the great work.


----------



## Neil_J

evilspoons said:


> I think (I haven't tested this myself) if you modify your Airport Express so that the DHCP parameters it passes out do not include a gateway address your iDevice will continue to use its cellular radio to connect to the internet.
> 
> Someone on NASIOC (Subaru Impreza forums) did this. I'll try to find the link...
> 
> EDIT: Here we go.
> 
> 
> 
> Thread here.
> 
> Also, I forgot to mention that this thread is an excellent read as an electrical engineer... I love the idea of custom fabbing electronic stuff. Keep up the great work.


Awesome advice, I will setup the DHCP settings as you suggest.


----------



## SciPunk

Neil. 
I have read this whole log in one sitting... 

MY GOD MAN. You are a artist! Your amp rack is one of the most beautiful designs i have ever seen. The Nixie tubes just put it over the top! 
Love everything and love the fact that like rob, you are just a guy doing his thing. 

Congrats on a stunning install so far. I am sub'd!


----------



## Neil_J

SciPunk said:


> Neil.
> I have read this whole log in one sitting...
> 
> MY GOD MAN. You are a artist! Your amp rack is one of the most beautiful designs i have ever seen. The Nixie tubes just put it over the top!
> Love everything and love the fact that like rob, you are just a guy doing his thing.
> 
> Congrats on a stunning install so far. I am sub'd!


Um, thanks  I have a CarPC build thread too, don't forget to check that out


----------



## SciPunk

Neil_J said:


> Um, thanks  I have a CarPC build thread too, don't forget to check that out


Just looking into that now


----------



## JayinMI

Neil_J said:


> Right now, just a layer of packaging tape on the bottom of the plate. The LEDs hold it in place from the bottom, but besides the tape and gravity, theres nothing to keep it from moving around. I may glue them in with epoxy or cyanoacrylate later, if I can figure out how to do it without glue residue being visible. The fit is a little looser than I'd like (I was being cautious and erring on the small side), so I may tack on a few replacement pieces on my next project (the cutting service is really cheap as long as you make the minimum order).


Hey Neil, I was just re reading this thread and was wondering about using rubber O-rings to retain your rings. Or did you already solve that issue (if there ended up being one)?

Jay


----------



## JayinMI

millerlyte said:


> :bowdown:
> 
> Simply stunning. Incredible job Neil. Why aren't you doing this for a living...


If he did this for a living, he wouldn't be able to afford stuff like this. LOL


----------



## Neil_J

I decided to document the touchscreen bezel fab here, instead of the CarPC thread, since it contains actual fabrication, and because I haven't posted anything worthwhile here in the last few months.

The idea was to install a 7" Lilliput capacitive touchscreen TFT monitor in a Metra 99-9309 double-DIN adapter kit, using a Bybyte nano-ITX case to house the TFT screen, and other misc. electronic modules. The Metra kit is pretty great, it works great with normal radios. The Bybyte frame, however, is larger than the double-DIN opening. It's significant to the point where I am having to do some major modification to get in.









Stock interior image.. not my car, but very similar. Notice there's nowhere for a double-DIN radio or touchscreen to go!









Metra 99-9309 adapter kit.










Bybyte Nano-ITX CarPC case, designed for Lilliput 7" TFT monitors.










You can see in this picture that the Bybyte case is too wide for the double-DIN opening.










The first step was to trim about 5mm from each side. The case slid in, but now you can see that it's too tall to fit.










The only place to go from here was to cut up the Metra 99-9309 bezel and move the A/C and toggle switch cluster down about 10mm. All of the cutting was done with a Dremel using a normal cutoff wheel.










10mm must be removed from the bottom in order for the A/C and toggle switch controls to sit flush.










One quick test-fit before the next cut.






































Now I'm going to try my best to attach all of these pieces back together, and then start the process of sanding and filling, and eventually have it painted (I'd actually like to have it covered in dry carbon fiber, but we'll see).


----------



## eviling

god bless your soul...i could never cut into a dash like that for a project with unknowens lol but i love that carputer box, thats gonna be sick! what size mb fits in that and what are you gonna run/ windows 8 is a really nice choice these days  it can run on pretty minimal resources comparativly and the new intel atom processors


----------



## Neil_J

eviling said:


> god bless your soul...i could never cut into a dash like that for a project with unknowens lol but i love that carputer box, thats gonna be sick! what size mb fits in that and what are you gonna run/ windows 8 is a really nice choice these days  it can run on pretty minimal resources comparativly and the new intel atom processors


I've always been a Microsoft hater, so no Windows stuff for me  Check the OP in my CarPC thread, it's a Mac Mini running OSX Snow Leopard, which IMO is an awesome platform for a CarPC, with the minor exception of not having an off-the-shelf CarPC app, and I'm working on that now.

Oh, and only the $30 Metra bezel was cut up, I could still go back to the original Mini bezel, or buy another Metra one if needed.


----------



## JayinMI

Neil,

Some suggestions for bonding the pieces back together. I have used 3m 4247 (but it sets way too quickly unless it's cold, and requires a special gun...tho some people have modded a large caulking gun for it). They also make a similar product called 4040. It sets up a little slower, making it easier to work with...but my favorite (cheap) solution involves thin CA glue and ABS dust.
I would probably use some thicker CA glue on the back side to attach some thin ABS chunks, then use some ABS dust to lightly fill in the gaps. Add some thin CA glue over it and watch out for the fumes. Once that all sets up it's VERY sturdy. I make my ABS dust w/ 80 or 150 grit paper. I prefer to use fiberglass reinforced filler (like duraglass) for intial shaping and strength, then I use some lightweight body filler to smooth everything out (Dynatron Delite, Rage Gold, Kromate lite are faves). If you look up the thread I did for doing a double din conversion on a New Beetle, you can see how it works. A whole lot cheaper than the 3m stuff...not that that matters to you, LOL.

Any video of the working 2 line display and stuff?

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> Some suggestions for bonding the pieces back together. I have used 3m 4247 (but it sets way too quickly unless it's cold, and requires a special gun...tho some people have modded a large caulking gun for it). They also make a similar product called 4040. It sets up a little slower, making it easier to work with...but my favorite (cheap) solution involves thin CA glue and ABS dust.
> I would probably use some thicker CA glue on the back side to attach some thin ABS chunks, then use some ABS dust to lightly fill in the gaps. Add some thin CA glue over it and watch out for the fumes. Once that all sets up it's VERY sturdy. I make my ABS dust w/ 80 or 150 grit paper. I prefer to use fiberglass reinforced filler (like duraglass) for intial shaping and strength, then I use some lightweight body filler to smooth everything out (Dynatron Delite, Rage Gold, Kromate lite are faves).


My original research led me to the 3M Dynatron stuff. That went obsolete a few years ago, and is pretty hard if not impossible to find. Which is a shame, because it's supposedly great stuff. After looking around a bit more, I really liked "plastic weld" technique Req used on his TFT bezel (his TFT panel is very similar to mine), because it's very effective and basically free. The technique is to take little ABS chunks (mine were about 5mm x 5mm x 2mm) and throw them in a glass jar filled with pure acetone. It dissolves the ABS very nicely, and turns into a goo. When spreading it onto ABS pieces, it will "weld" itself creating a very strong bond that will not crack. I'm fortunate in that I have a lot of leftover ABS pieces from my Metra kit, which is guaranteed to be chemically compatible with the bezel piece.

So my basic plan of attack is:

Start by CA gluing the pieces to get them into the right position. I'm using Mercury Adhesive M300M medium, which is a brand used by RC hobby folk. 
Then use the acetone welding technique to provide the structural integrity, by fusing the various ABS pieces together. There will likely be a lot of gaps at this point, but at least it will be structurally sound. I'm envisioning this as a series of "spot welds" every inch or so, or maybe a continuous bead depending on how thick the ABS goo ends up.
Then apply a few thin layers of bumper repair kit epoxy (this is replacement for the 3M Dynatron 660 that's been obsoleted) to the low spots to slowly start eliminating the gaps. I'm going to try the Bondo brand since it was available at an auto parts store in my neighborhood. It is supposed to be sandable and easy to work with.
Sand down the high spots with 60 or coarser grit sandpaper. I'm using a cheap black-and-decker mouse sander, and a regular sanding block with a lot of elbow grease.
Repeat the to previous steps until all large gaps have been filled.
Then start filling in the smaller gaps with 3M 5895 Automix plastic repair, which is well known for being easy to sand. 
Sand the above with progressively finer grit sandpaper until it's smooth enough to prime. 
Next is to spray on primer and then sand down, going through the high spots as needed. Repeat as many times as necessary.
Then it should be ready to apply paint.
Alternatively, I should be able to skip the last two steps and do the dry carbon fiber technique with raw carbon fiber cloth and clear epoxy. I have a few people I could call that could hopefully do this step for me, for a good price. The benefit here is that the carbon fiber hides any little imperfections, and happens to go along with my theme.


----------



## JayinMI

I can find the Dynatron stuff all day long at any local AutoZone. Weird that it's "obsolete." I like it. It's not really cheap, but you can get a small can of it vs. 1 gallon for small projects.

I just used some acetone to strip a rubberized coating off of a dash kit, and it gave the ABS a weird texture I eventually had to sand smooth again...I'm a little leary of trying it.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

Ok, I need advice.

I've got less than a month until Daytona Spring Break Nationals, where I'm going to be competing in both IASCA and MECA. The car isn't really done yet, and I've never really been happy with how it sounds, acoustically.

I'm wondering if I should fiberglass up a set of A-pillars for my L3SE's and L1 Pro R2's, or just leave them in the stock locations (mid door pods and A-pillars for the tweets). Currently they don't image well at all, my thinking is that moving the mids closer to the tweets will help. I'd much rather put the mids into the dash like Highly and others have done, but that's out of scope at the moment. The A-pillars would be a compromise, but at least I could pull it off in time. I don't think there's any chance of me winning a trophy with with the mids in the doors.

Thoughts? I can post pictures of my current setup this evening if that helps.


----------



## quality_sound

You can absolutely win with them in the door. You could always do a 2-way as well.


----------



## ptomaine1

Would it be appropriate to say that you're a "beast" at your work? I've been doing tons of research to start some audio and sound deadening work on my R53 ('06 S) and found your build forum. After reading your build log start to finish I knew I had to sign up for the forums and I guess I'll be using SDS products now (and because Don's write-ups just make sense). I haven't found a mini build log that's as thorough as yours. I'll reach out to Don round about the time that I start gathering materials, but do you remember how much CCF and MLV you ordered to cover the floors. I plan on trying to cover the floors and am crossing my fingers since I want to get that, 2 x 6.5 subs, JL xd500/3, new HU, and door components all stuffed in and buttoned up in under a day. My fiancee would kill me if I she can't drive the car for more than a day or two.

But all I can say is keep up the good work man!


----------



## Neil_J

As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm looking for advice on whether or not to attempt custom A-pillar pods for my mids and tweets before Daytona Spring Break nationals next month. Below are some pictures of what I'm currently running (basically a Hybrid Audio 3-way in mostly-stock locations). 









(HAT L1 Pro R2's in tweeter pods)









HAT L3SE in stock door pods, HAT L6SE (still haven't gotten around to those speaker grills yet :blush: )



Can anyone else besides quality_sound chime in let me know if A-pillars are a good idea, especially this short notice?

P.S, ptomaine1, will send you a P.M. later this evening hopefully.


----------



## papasin

Dunno if which class you compete in matters to you, but that maybe something to think about. My understanding of the rules is that in MECA, I think your current setup would put you in Street class. But if you go with A-pillars, depending on the spacing/stacking of your drivers, this may push you past Modified into Modex or even Extreme. In the rules thread, there's some unhappy people especially here in CA after this "clarification". Specifically, the top 2 that guys last year in Modified either are pushed to Modex or Extreme, and the 3rd place completely rebuilt his setup and tore out his pods just to stay in Modified.

IMHO, you could make your current setup to work well. The 2-way suggestion is similar to how I have my wife's Smart setup, with the same headshok pods and same R2 tweeters, just a different mid .

EDIT: Just remembered you have a Carputer. IIRC, that automatically bumps you up to Modified.


----------



## Neil_J

papasin said:


> Dunno if which class you compete in matters to you, but that maybe something to think about. My understanding of the rules is that in MECA, I think your current setup would put you in Street class. But if you go with A-pillars, depending on the spacing/stacking of your drivers, this may push you past Modified into Modex or even Extreme. In the rules thread, there's some unhappy people especially here in CA after this "clarification". Specifically, the top 2 that guys last year in Modified either are pushed to Modex or Extreme, and the 3rd place completely rebuilt his setup and tore out his pods just to stay in Modified.
> 
> IMHO, you could make your current setup to work well. The 2-way suggestion is similar to how I have my wife's Smart setup, with the same headshok pods and same R2 tweeters, just a different mid .


I was in MECA mod street last year (no CarPC, no non-stock speaker locations). I didn't agree with that classification at all, but whatever.

My understanding is for MECA, the use of a CarPC puts me in modified. The A-pillar pods seem to be allowed in Modified, but may put me in Modex depending on interpretation at judging time. The center channel for my 5.1 surround sound processing stuff puts me in at least Modex for sure. Of course, I can always turn the center channel off for the competition, and maybe run in Modified. Again, all depends on the mood of the judge that day (I pissed a few of them off last year, that much I know).

I'm not really against running in Modex, even though I'm sure to get my ass stomped :blush: It's a very competitive class, and my car still needs another year's worth of work before I could do much. I've always approached this build as an educational project, there's not really much of a need to "win" anything... although it always helps.

It seems everyone thinks I can get my car to image with the stock locations, but I've never been able to get it even close. At least, not compared to the other SQ cars I've heard. It's very possible that I don't know how to tune, but I think there's some acoustics that are coming into play as well.


----------



## quality_sound

You can. I was able to get a rock solid image in my MINI. Wasn't really difficult either. TA did most of it. A little EQ did the rest.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> You can. I was able to get a rock solid image in my MINI. Wasn't really difficult either. TA did most of it. A little EQ did the rest.


OK. It can be done. I will try to hone in on my tuning skills


----------



## subwoofery

What if you had the L3SE still in the stock location but where the grill is instead of way behind it? 
Looks like the L3SE is playing in a small tube before the open space... Dunno if it affects anything (reflections and all)

Kelvin


----------



## req

i have seen a pod similar to the tweeter pods for midranges, why not try to make or buy one of those and just pop them in there. that would be a quick and simple solution that does not involve fiberglassing a whole pillar and you wouldn't have to really do much to the car










just a thought 

and i hope your bezel comes out well - just a fair warning
*wait a few days before you paint the bezel for the plastic and fillers to gas out. i painted mine the day after it dried with plastidip and now there are small bubbles that i cant get rid of unless i disassemble the whole thing, sand it, and respray.*

as always man, you are doing awesome work.

i did some light research on pods, and i found that motorcycles use these types of enclosures. i found this, and for 50$ it does not seem like a bad test rig. just toss the "amp" in the trash (maybe keep the heatsink) and remove and replace the speakers in the pods with yours - then they should just bolt right onto the pillars with ease.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pyle-PLMCA2...t=US_Marine_Audio&hash=item51a180e648&vxp=mtr

also,

this thread. those angle mount bracket things at the end look promising.

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/ipb/index.php/topic/355396-adjustable-tweetermid-pods/


----------



## JayinMI

I was thinking of coming down for SBN, but I just can't afford it this year....maybe next year, with my car done. LOL

Out of curiosity, does a tablet qualify as a CarPC?

Jay


----------



## papasin

req said:


> i have seen a pod similar to the tweeter pods for midranges, why not try to make or buy one of those and just pop them in there. that would be a quick and simple solution that does not involve fiberglassing a whole pillar and you wouldn't have to really do much to the car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just a thought


Be interested to know where to get said pods, especially for a 3" or similar. Happy to take offline via PM.

Sorry for the thread jack.


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Out of curiosity, does a tablet qualify as a CarPC?


For MECA purposes, I was told yes, basically, since it isn't natively 12V.


----------



## quality_sound

subwoofery said:


> What if you had the L3SE still in the stock location but where the grill is instead of way behind it?
> Looks like the L3SE is playing in a small tube before the open space... Dunno if it affects anything (reflections and all)
> 
> Kelvin


It's actually a lot closer to the grill that it looks. There's also a little foam in there to seal it. You coudl add some extra to help with any reflections you DO get though. My only real issues was that there sin't much air behind it so my mids always sounded a little honky. In that car the 2-way works well too. I had a preset on my H800 for 2-way and one for 3-way.


----------



## req

papasin said:


> Be interested to know where to get said pods, especially for a 3" or similar. Happy to take offline via PM.
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack.


found them on google search


----------



## Neil_J

The more I think about it, the more I want to move the midranges. Right now, I don't have a "point source" (far from it). Besides the time and effort, I dont see how putting the mids near the a-pillars would make it any worse. Patrick Bateman and others are always harping on the benefits of a point source.


----------



## JayinMI

Wow, with all the stuff you have planned how are you still getting married? LOL
Doesn't seem like you'd ever see the GF/Fiance'. lol 

I'd save the pillars for last, rather than risk running out of time.
From some of the posts I've read your car sounded pretty good as is...

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

I got my center channel working today:








The plan is to remove the bezel to the "center vent" and place the center channel there. (Note: this is an additional A/C vent to keep it from blowing in your face, not the defroster). The bezel is removed with a bit of dremeling on the bottom, after taking out the center speedo and supporting bracket.


















I went with UHMW plastic for the bezel that was left over from the girlfriend's speaker brackets. It cuts like butter 


















The outline was cut with a jigsaw at a 45 degree angle, and then further beveled with a mouse sander with 60 grit paper.



























The speakers are 8-ohm Tang Band 3", the ones with the bamboo cones  They're wired in parallel for a four-ohm load.




























Yes it's pretty damn ugly. The gangsta looking black velvet was leftover from my homemade 100" projection screen. It's adhesive-backed 2" strips meant for the border around the screen. I'm not even sure I'm going to keep this baffle after Spring Break Nationals, so I'm not putting any more time/money into it until I've done some listening tests.. the black at least looks a little better than the bare UHMW plastic baffle.

I did a quick listening test this afternoon, and to my surprise, it sounds really great! It's the closest thing to a pinpoint center image that I've had in my car yet.


----------



## JayinMI

Be careful with those, the UV rays fade the cones out pretty fast. Mine are now a slightly yellowish color. They sounded fine, tho.

BTW, is the other Mini your GF's?

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> Be careful with those, the UV rays fade the cones out pretty fast. Mine are now a slightly yellowish color. They sounded fine, tho.


Duly noted. They may be swapped out for some L3SE's in the following months, if i can come up with the cash. I'm wondering if I can spray coat some speaker grill cloth with some UV protectant?




> BTW, is the other Mini your GF's?


Yep, I've got to finish her audio system after Spring Break Nationals.. I've been procrastinating on that for like, 10 months now  I'll be doing a build thread on hers, it's going to be a brutally simple install compared to mine, but should hopefully sound amazing.


----------



## Neil_J

Doing some long-overdue door panel deadening. Lots of Damplifier Pro CLD tiles going on today.




























I really hope that (A) I beat the afternoon rain, and (B) I don't break my window glass in the process.


----------



## JayinMI

When my GF and her brother were in Orlando for his school, it was funny cause it got to like 90 everyday and rained around 4pm EVERY DAMN DAY. lol

I like that you can take that whole piece out like that. Makes deadening much easier. My Genesis Coupe had a large removable piece that the window and motor were attached to. If you look at my build, I show how I got the windows out and in correctly.

So, the piece you were asking me about is attached to the actual door, and the Door "panel" goes around it? I may have misunderstood you but still looks pretty doable. Haven't worked on enough Mini's (like 3, one got a Remote Start, one got an amp and sub, one was a checkout for bad reception.) to know them that well.

Hope the info I gave you is still usable.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

Layer one of the Second Skin Damplifier Pro.









Second layer. Notice the cutouts for the ABS plastic strengthening ribs.

Holy crap, removing/reinstalling/adjusting the window glass is NOT for the faint of heart. Especially on a MINI or other frameless doors. I got the driver door done today. If I decide to repeat all this madness again with the passenger door, it will likely be this Friday, and hopefully it goes smoother. I really hope this treatment tames the annoying resonances I was having.. if not, then I'll be pretty bummed I wasted all this time on it.


----------



## JayinMI

I used some blue painter's tape on the window before I took everything apart. I taped the bottom edge along the weather stripping, and the front edge along the mirror triangle area. When you put them back in, line up the tape lines and tighten the bolts. Boom. Done. Easy.

Genesis Forum: GenCoupe Hyundai Genesis Forums - View Single Post - My "In Progress" Stereo Install

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> I used some blue painter's tape on the window before I took everything apart. I taped the bottom edge along the weather stripping, and the front edge along the mirror triangle area. When you put them back in, line up the tape lines and tighten the bolts. Boom. Done. Easy.


Can't believe I didn't think of that, I'll definitely try that on the passenger side.


----------



## BowDown

Neil_J said:


> Now I'm going to try my best to attach all of these pieces back together, and then start the process of sanding and filling, and eventually have it painted (I'd actually like to have it covered in dry carbon fiber, but we'll see).


Any updated pictures?


----------



## robolop

I also think you’ve failed here … When I look at the rest you’ve made, you underperformed.
I don’t quite understand why you didn’t mount the speaker from underneath, and then cover it with cloth or something…you won’t see anything then.
Perhaps the speakers are too big, but then you disc a couple of mm of, no? But for all the rest you made, RESPECT


----------



## Neil_J

robolop said:


> I also think you&#146;ve failed here &#133; When I look at the rest you&#146;ve made, you underperformed.
> I don&#146;t quite understand why you didn&#146;t mount the speaker from underneath, and then cover it with cloth or something&#133;you won&#146;t see anything then.
> Perhaps the speakers are too big, but then you disc a couple of mm of, no? But for all the rest you made, RESPECT


Bite my shiny metal ass, dude 

Here's why:
#1: Yes, they're too big to be mounted from underneath.
#2: I'm not cutting my dash any more than I've already done. No relocating A/C vents, etc.
#3: I'm less than for days away from competing in a Sound Quality competition, and I work for a living. Keep in mind I'm still finishing my CarPC which is still in pieces on the bench.
#4: Why would I further cut up my dash if it sounded bad? Why not wait until I've actually heard it and made judgement, and then decide if it's worth persuing? It only has to be functional at this point.
#5: My speaker grill cloth hasn't arrived from Parts Express yet, and might not make it before I leave for Spring Break Nationals next weekend. If it DOES arrive, I'll cover the speakers, just for you.


----------



## BowDown

Neil_J said:


> Bite my shiny metal ass, dude




If I had room in my signature this would surely be in there.


----------



## robolop

Sorry I bothered you. It will not happen again.


----------



## Neil_J

robolop said:


> Sorry I bothered you. It will not happen again.


Not bothered at all, in fact I'm glad I'm being held up to high standards  I don't mind constructive criticism, and also sometimes my sarcasm doesn't come across very well.


----------



## quietfly

Neil_J said:


> Bite my shiny metal ass, dude
> 
> <snip>


LOL

i couldn't help "hearing" this in Bender from futurama's voice.....
:laugh:


----------



## imjustjason

robolop said:


> Sorry I bothered you. It will not happen again.





Neil_J said:


> Not bothered at all, in fact I'm glad I'm being held up to high standards  I don't mind constructive criticism, and also sometimes my sarcasm doesn't come across very well.


You two are about as high as the standard can be for true DIY guys.


----------



## JayinMI

imjustjason said:


> You two are about as high as the standard can be for true DIY guys.


Troof.


Did the deadener seem to help?

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

The doors feel solid now, but I won't know how they sound until at least tomorrow. The non-hardening modeling clay that I used to add weight to the midbass drivers is falling apart, so that will need to be replaced. I should have uses butyl rubber duct seal, but they don't sell it locally, and I never got around to ordering it on Amazon. Also my MDF midbass rings are rotting out, mostly due to the oil from the NHMC, so those will eventually be replaced with UHMW plastic, which should outlast the rest of the car.


----------



## bertholomey

Good luck Neil - you have done amazing work - I really hope to hear it this year.


----------



## fast4door

just plain crazy sick . Neil you are a magician !!


----------



## south east customz

Hey man if u need black grill cloth I have some I'll mail it to u


----------



## JayinMI

Neil_J said:


> The doors feel solid now, but I won't know how they sound until at least tomorrow. The non-hardening modeling clay that I used to add weight to the midbass drivers is falling apart, so that will need to be replaced. I should have uses butyl rubber duct seal, but they don't sell it locally, and I never got around to ordering it on Amazon. Also my MDF midbass rings are rotting out, mostly due to the oil from the NHMC, so those will eventually be replaced with UHMW plastic, which should outlast the rest of the car.


Really? I got my duct seal at Home Depot in the electrical section. It came in 1lb blocks.

I don't know if it will help, but I've used King Starboard with great success for speaker rings. I actually order it from a guy in Florida on eBay. Check for Cesany Plastics. He might be close enough you could grab it up semi-locally.


Jay


----------



## ansuser

robolop said:


> I also think you’ve failed here … When I look at the rest you’ve made, you underperformed...


I would agree with robolop on this one, because:
1. Comb filtering is a pretty nasty thing and most likely you'll get it from 800 Hz and higher.
2. Tonns of secondary reflections off the dasboard . 

I would suggest to ditch one of the speakers and put the rest one deeper inside cavity with some horn-type waveguide (this will increase efficiency and compensate lack of second speaker). Waveguide will prevent from undesireblae reflections Then cover with cloth - and here you go!


----------



## south east customz

JayinMI said:


> Really? I got my duct seal at Home Depot in the electrical section. It came in 1lb blocks.
> 
> I don't know if it will help, but I've used King Starboard with great success for speaker rings. I actually order it from a guy in Florida on eBay. Check for Cesany Plastics. He might be close enough you could grab it up semi-locally.
> 
> 
> Jay


Lol, that guy is my dads neighbor! I buy drop pieces from him all the time.


----------



## Neil_J

ansuser said:


> I would agree with robolop on this one, because:
> 1. Comb filtering is a pretty nasty thing and most likely you'll get it from 800 Hz and higher.
> 2. Tonns of secondary reflections off the dasboard .
> 
> I would suggest to ditch one of the speakers and put the rest one deeper inside cavity with some horn-type waveguide (this will increase efficiency and compensate lack of second speaker). Waveguide will prevent from undesireblae reflections Then cover with cloth - and here you go!


The answers to why I did the center channel the way I did has been covered in previous posts. The dash opening is not bit enough for a 3" driver to go inside the opening. I'll post a video if i have to, but i thought the pictures of the opening would suffice. I can't cut up the A/C vents or rebuilding the dash. I don't have time to learn about, design, and build a waveguide, and install it, all before the SQ competition that I leave for this Friday evening  Yea it's a compromise, but it does sound good! After the competition this weekend, I'll love for others that attended and heard it to share what they thought here. And yes, I'll eventually redo the center channel (as I said earlier) but it will certainly work for this weekend.


----------



## trevordj

Neil Thanks for all of your work in both this thread and your carPC thread. You are doing things I have never seen or heard of before. I rarely comment or participate in the forum anymore, just lurk and read through everything occasionally. The things you are doing are so outstanding that I just had to say thank you. 

My wife is pissed at you though, I just picked up a couple books for my kindle on circuit design and board prototyping (something I knew absolutely nothing about or even considered learning until your threads). I also ordered the arduino uno R3 inventors kit .


----------



## JayinMI

These things are addictive. I picked my Arduino up a couple months back, and I am constantly thinking of more applications for it. 

Jay


----------



## CDT FAN

As always, impressive! If you don't mind me asking, what freq range are you running the center channel speakers in? I am thinking about using a single HAT L4 myself, but I don't know if I need to play the center lower than it will go.


----------



## HondAudio

JayinMI said:


> Really? I got my duct seal at Home Depot in the electrical section. It came in 1lb blocks.
> 
> I don't know if it will help, but I've used King Starboard with great success for speaker rings. I actually order it from a guy in Florida on eBay. Check for Cesany Plastics. He might be close enough you could grab it up semi-locally.
> 
> 
> Jay


Now that I have a real router and I can use real router bits - what's the standard operation to cut plastics like these - a carbide upspiral mortising bit?


----------



## Neil_J

I play mine down to 250 Hz @ 12 dB/octave. Anything steering center that's lower than 250 gets sent to the midbasses in the doors. So far, it's given me a rock-solid center without much work, I'd imagine that it will only get better with tuning.


----------



## CDT FAN

Neil_J said:


> I play mine down to 250 Hz @ 12 dB/octave. Anything steering center that's lower than 250 gets sent to the midbasses in the doors. So far, it's given me a rock-solid center without much work, I'd imagine that it will only get better with tuning.


Thanks. I've got the MS-8. I don't think it will split the center signal up like that. I'll have to RTFM again.


----------



## Neil_J

CDT FAN said:


> Thanks. I've got the MS-8. I don't think it will split the center signal up like that. I'll have to RTFM again.


IIRC, Andy W. said that the MS-8 uses the center high-pass point to send anything below that to the door midbasses and/or subwoofer. I can dig the post out of needed, but it's probably in the MS-8 faq thread. It's probably been a year or so since I researched it, but that's how I remember it.


----------



## JayinMI

HondAudio said:


> Now that I have a real router and I can use real router bits - what's the standard operation to cut plastics like these - a carbide upspiral mortising bit?


I used an upspiral bit (the same one I use for wood.) Other than a ridiculous amount of plastic shavings, it was very easy to work with.

Jay


----------



## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> IIRC,* Andy W. said that the MS-8 uses the center high-pass point to send anything below that to the door midbasses and/or subwoofer.* I can dig the post out of needed, but it's probably in the MS-8 faq thread. It's probably been a year or so since I researched it, but that's how I remember it.


^yup


----------



## CDT FAN

Neil_J said:


> IIRC, Andy W. said that the MS-8 uses the center high-pass point to send anything below that to the door midbasses and/or subwoofer. I can dig the post out of needed, but it's probably in the MS-8 faq thread. It's probably been a year or so since I researched it, but that's how I remember it.


If my memory wasn't so frakin bad, I would have remembered it too since I read the entire FAQ last year. Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## HondAudio

JayinMI said:


> I used an upspiral bit (the same one I use for wood.) Other than a ridiculous amount of plastic shavings, it was very easy to work with.
> 
> Jay


_Excellent..._ </Stewie>

It's a good thing my router has vacuum attachments to suck up all the dust!


----------



## subwoofery

Neil_J said:


> IIRC, Andy W. said that the MS-8 uses the center high-pass point to send anything below that to the door midbasses and/or subwoofer. I can dig the post out of needed, but it's probably in the MS-8 faq thread. It's probably been a year or so since I researched it, but that's how I remember it.


Correct  

He also suggested that if the center channel wasn't playing very low (not much below 300Hz), PLD in front midbasses then becomes much more important for a 2 seat system 

Kelvin


----------



## Neil_J

subwoofery said:


> Correct
> 
> He also suggested that if the center channel wasn't playing very low (not much below 300Hz), PLD in front midbasses then becomes much more important for a 2 seat system


I can pretty much vouch for that, currently my center channel is rock-solid from 250 and up, but pulls slightly to the left below that, which like you say, is caused by unequal path midbass lengths. I can tune this out of course, but yea, PLD will be an issue for a center channel unless you've got a sub in the middle of your dash


----------



## CDT FAN

Thank guys, for your feedback. I wonder if a 4" playing down to 150 would be sufficient. I have picked out a good spot about chest high to mount one.


----------



## JayinMI

Neil_J said:


> I can pretty much vouch for that, currently my center channel is rock-solid from 250 and up, but pulls slightly to the left below that, which like you say, is caused by unequal path midbass lengths. I can tune this out of course, but yea, PLD will be an issue for a center channel unless you've got a sub in the middle of your dash


You mean, like an 8" sub where your speedometer was? I mean, if you had a Mini, anyway. Oh wait....LOL

Jay


----------



## mattyjman

Neil_J said:


>



freaking badass! that looks tight!


----------



## subbox77

awesome


----------



## rjtapp

SBN has come and gone, so how did you do? 
I to have read on countless forums and followed build logs, but you my friend are truly genius, incredible, electrical master, fabrication master, car audio Jedi master! Words can't describe! This build log is my audiophile porn! 
I wish I was able to do 1/3 of what you do! 
Incredible work friend!


----------



## BowDown

I know the big push is over.. but any updates?


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> I know the big push is over.. but any updates?


Not really, I've been working on your stupid OEM interface all weekend  It's pretty much done but the rotary encoders have very dirty contacts so I'm trying to come up with a better software filter to prevent it from not reading the correct encoder value. It'll hopefully be in the mail by this time tomorrow.


----------



## BowDown

Neil_J said:


> Not really, I've been working on your stupid OEM interface all weekend  It's pretty much done but the rotary encoders have very dirty contacts so I'm trying to come up with a better software filter to prevent it from not reading the correct encoder value. It'll hopefully be in the mail by this time tomorrow.


Lol sorry man. Dirty from the bandsaw or just cheap components? Really appreciate all the work. Those drilled out buttons with resistive ladder is looking pretty good eh?  



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


----------



## Neil_J

I spent probably $350 this weekend on audiophile music. (I know most of you guys probably steal it for free, I won't really get into that argument here, it would be off-topic). Here's what I picked up:


Chesky Records - The Ultimate Demonstration Disc (otherwise known as the official MECA CD), 44.1kHz/16bit FLAC, via HDTracks.
Dr. Chesky's Sensational, Fantastic, and Simply Amazing Binaural Sound Show (Audiophile 192kHz/24bit FLAC via HDTracks) This is an amazing record, especially with a good stereo upmixer. I've had a blast just listening to it with headphones.
The Eagles - Hell Freezes Over (DVD, 5.1 surround sound) For you guys that have heard Hotel California before, you'll be able to hear it in my car in true surround, not downmixed to stereo  
"Dr. Chesky's Magnificent, Fabulous, Absurd & Insane Musical 5.1 Surround Show" (DVD, 5.1 surround sound) I figured this one would be a fun technical disc. We'll see. Again, I will be able to play this in true surround, and obviously downmix to stereo to be played through the upmixer, as a technical reference to test the various upmixers I've collected. 
And a ton of CD's in new to slightly-used condition: (all will be converted to FLAC using ExactAudioCopy hopefully before I scratch them... I hate physical CD's as I am VERY clumsy)

Rolling Stones - Flashpoint (44.1/16 CD) iirc the first binaural recorded live show.. and a rockin' one at that, the Stones are by no means a ****ty live band). This one sounds really sweet through Dolby Pro Logic II in my living room.
Thriller - Michael Jackson
Eric Clapton - a few of his "Best Of" CD's
Dire Straits - Money for Nothing (found this for $2.99 used at a hipster record shop in Orlando). I've been demoing the title track of this album for over a year now, and yep, it was a 256 kbps mp3.
Skrillex - Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites - The ultimate SQ Reference CD
Skrillex - Bangarang
Gotye - Making Mirrors
A bunch of other hipster music including Hooverphonic, Grizzly Bear, Jonti, Ellie Goulding, Of Men and Men, Bowie, Lana Del Rey, Mumford and Sons, Robbie Williams, et. al.

But Why am I telling you this? Because, friends, I've been listening to mp3's for 13+ years now, and I'm finally moving into the world of _uncompressed music_. It's truly a wonderful thing. Don't tell anyone, but that one judge that gave me a score of 79 at SBN? He loved the way the whole thing sounded, etc... Yea, he was listening to a _128 kbps mp3_ of the Chesky CD. Whoops. Well no more. I'm going to be amassing quite a collection and try to slowly phase out all of my tired mp3's.

The CarPC is obviously going to take some time to perfect and in the meantime I need to listen to some music. Since the CarPC is the only method I have of doing the stereo upmixing, this means that my "temporary" system will be a three-way front stage with a sub, so the center channel and rears are not hooked up. I'm going to use the iPad as a front stage as I've been doing for a while because that's all I have, still no place for a head unit. I may invest in a Pure i20 or similar TOSLINK solution to get around the crappy DAC in the iPad. The cool part is, I figured out how to hook my OEM knobs and buttons in the speedo to the iPad, wirelessly  More on that later. Still waiting for some parts to show up via U.S. mail from Colorado.

The best part is, this will give me an excuse to do some traditional manual SQ tuning and try to work on my staging and imaging without a center channel. *The SQ Purists around here would be proud*  This obviously means, that when I do get the CarPC and stereo upmixing working, the left and right imaging will already be ready to go, more or less.

Oh.. and I'm very likely going to be doing fiberglass A-pillars for the HAT L3SE's and L1 Pro R2's in the next few weeks... stay tuned.


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> Lol sorry man. Dirty from the bandsaw or just cheap components? Really appreciate all the work. Those drilled out buttons with resistive ladder is looking pretty good eh?


No way, it came out pretty damn good, and you wouldn't have had a way to do those encoders period, short of a scratchy potentiometer for a volume knob, and that's just unprofessional.

I'm going to make a youtube video tonight and put it in your build thread, I'm quite proud of it for a few hours of work.


----------



## quality_sound

If you're running a Mac mini why not just use Apple Lossless? Every bit as good as FLAC.


----------



## Neil_J

quality_sound said:


> If you're running a Mac mini why not just use Apple Lossless? Every bit as good as FLAC.


FLAC is more universal, iTunes being one of the only programs that doesnt support it. I have been either purchasing in FLAC, or ripping to FLAC, and then converting to apple lossless for iTunes using X Lossless Decoder; which automatically imports when finished. Works pretty well, and doesn't lock me into an apple format.


----------



## BowDown

Neil_J said:


> No way, it came out pretty damn good, and you wouldn't have had a way to do those encoders period, short of a scratchy potentiometer for a volume knob, and that's just unprofessional.
> 
> I'm going to make a youtube video tonight and put it in your build thread, I'm quite proud of it for a few hours of work.


Awesome! Look forward to it. One word would of taken care of the right knob... Powermate.  



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


----------



## BowDown

Are you going to mold a mounting dock tray into the radio bezel? 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> Are you going to mold a mounting dock tray into the radio bezel?


God no :surprised:


----------



## quality_sound

Neil_J said:


> FLAC is more universal, iTunes being one of the only programs that doesnt support it. I have been either purchasing in FLAC, or ripping to FLAC, and then converting to apple lossless for iTunes using X Lossless Decoder; which automatically imports when finished. Works pretty well, and doesn't lock me into an apple format.


Ahhhh. Yeah, I guess it just depends on what format you use to get into lossless with.


----------



## ecbmxer

Always enjoy checking out your build updates! I've always wanted to see someone do a MS-8 center using two mids and a tweet like a MTM center in a home theater setup. Seems like you could pull that off, albeit not sunken into the dash. (I actually read your explanation of why that wouldn't work LOL)


----------



## t3sn4f2

ecbmxer said:


> Always enjoy checking out your build updates! I've always wanted to see someone do a MS-8 center using two mids and a tweet like a MTM center in a home theater setup. Seems like you could pull that off, albeit not sunken into the dash. (I actually read your explanation of why that wouldn't work LOL)


Horizontal MTMs suck azz from an off axis seating position at home. Imagine how they fair in a car's near field environment.


----------



## chevbowtie22

I hear you on the lossless audio. I finally went through and converted all my cd's over and cleaned house on anything digital that wasn't flac. It makes a huge difference coming from 128, 192, or even 256. 320 isn't that bad with some recordings but I try to avoid that at all costs.


----------



## n_olympios

I went full lossless (flac here as well) about 6 years ago, never looked back. You won't either.


----------



## BowDown

n_olympios said:


> I went full lossless (flac here as well) about 6 years ago, never looked back. You won't either.


I'm working my way down. I just hate to re-buy mp3's I ripped at a low resolution then discarded the cd's of.. LOL.


----------



## Neil_J

MP3's and other compressed format are especially bad when played through a stereo upmixer like I'm doing, to extract center and rear surround. The upmixer works by comparing phases between left and right, and of course lossy compression screws this up really bad. How bad totally depends on the encoder and the bitrate. Even if you couldn't hear the sound quality difference (and I certainly can, double-blind with ABX testing programs), the upmixer needs that extra information to do its job in extracting the center and rear channels from the stereo data. So it's a no-brainer for me, I've either got to re-purchase or re-rip to CD most of the stuff I've had in my collection.


----------



## quietfly

which up mixer have you decided to go with?


----------



## Neil_J

quietfly said:


> which up mixer have you decided to go with?


For now, SPEC 4.8 / ZAG 3.0 by surroundbyus.com, which is a custom Plogue Bidule plugin designed by some enthusiasts and ex-recording engineers. The plugin is free with registration (very similar to Room Eq Wizard btw) and the trial for Plogue Bidule is very lenient. I can't say I've gotten this setup to work 100% yet, but I haven't given up. 

If that doesn't work out, I have a few other options, but all are either prohibitively expensive, or involve me get my hands dirty and writing some very optimized, efficient code to do the processing myself.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Neil_J said:


> MP3's and other compressed format are especially bad when played through a stereo upmixer like I'm doing, to extract center and rear surround. The upmixer works by comparing phases between left and right, and of course lossy compression screws this up really bad. How bad totally depends on the encoder and the bitrate. Even if you couldn't hear the sound quality difference (and I certainly can, double-blind with ABX testing programs), the upmixer needs that extra information to do its job in extracting the center and rear channels from the stereo data. So it's a no-brainer for me, I've either got to re-purchase or re-rip to CD most of the stuff I've had in my collection.


Neil, from what you have read and experimented with, do you think a studio encoded MP3 of 256-320kbps using CBR and "joint stereo" encoding is good enough to let the upmixer perform correctly? Particularly with the MS-8's Logic7 feature.


----------



## Neil_J

t3sn4f2 said:


> Neil, from what you have read and experimented with, do you think a studio encoded MP3 of 256-320kbps using CBR and "joint stereo" encoding is good enough to let the upmixer perform correctly? Particularly with the MS-8's Logic7 feature.


Um, great question actually, I'm in the process of trying to do some side-by-side tests now, but I've got some more Apple issues to work out first (iTunes just hosed up my iPad installation, so I'll need to restore it to factory defaults and re-sync all of my music  )

So far, the upmixer has done a decent job with my mp3 collection (mostly 256 Kbps or so vbr), but I've not had anything close to laser beam imaging yet. I can definitely hear that it's sending center channel data to the center, but I've not really been impressed, and have no idea how much better it will get with uncompressed music until I try it. I'll likely have a better answer tomorrow or Thursday.. Doing a whole lot of ABX testing was one of the reasons for the CarPC. I'll be either posting my results here, or in another thread, when complete.


----------



## Neil_J

If anyone is reading this from South Florida: I'll be competing at the Palm Springs MECA event on March 30. More details here: http://www.mecacaraudio.com/dnn50/events.aspx


----------



## TexZen

Well, that's 30 minutes NE of me (currently in Boynton Beach). Will have to attend and come find you. Looking forward to checking out your build!


----------



## rjtapp

If you want to hear some truly amazing jazz, pick up Yanni, live at the acropolis. That album is badass. Songs 3 & 7 really make your system shine. Also Micheal Jackson's big ones cd is great to. Has all the good songs. The redo black and white rocks!


----------



## n_olympios

I'm tempted to go on a rant about Yanni but I think I'll pass.


----------



## TexZen

n_olympios said:


> I'm tempted to go on a rant about Yanni but I think I'll pass.


 :lol:


----------



## Neil_J

Yea that would certainly be off-topic. I'm not even sure I know who he is...


----------



## JayinMI

I have a friend who has been into Yanni for years. That was the only reason I knew who he was. Not my kind of music, but the stuff I've heard is very well recorded.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

If it's well recorded and not my favorite genre(s) then it falls under "soulless SQ album" to me  still usable for tuning and such, just no real emotional connection to it.

Kinda like Rebecca Pidgeon Spanish Harlem. It tears my car to shreds so I use it even though I can barely stand it.


----------



## thehatedguy

This is one instance you aren't missing out having never heard of him.

Somethings are better left unknown.


----------



## Neil_J

thehatedguy said:


> This is one instance you aren't missing out having never heard of him.
> 
> Somethings are better left unknown.


Dude, Yanni might me _awesome_. How would I know unless I attempt to experience it in all its glory? :laugh:


----------



## astrochex

Neil_J said:


> Dude, Yanni might me _awesome_. How would I know unless I attempt to experience it in all its glory? :laugh:


His music may not be, but his hair and 'stache certainly used to be...


----------



## rjtapp

Ok,ok I agree, he's a Fabio knock off and from what I hear his concerts are ridiculously over priced, but atleast the 2 songs I mentioned have all kinds of drums and it just sounds cool as hell at warp nine. I could careless who's playing them. Just try them before you knock them. Is fast moving jazz and that's the only jazz I can stand, otherwise I leave Collective Soul going all the time.


----------



## rjtapp

I have a question for you Neil, since you seem to me to be very proficient at computers, I have a jvc arsenal kd-avx49 in dash video, is ther a way to hack it so I can have my own backgrounds and such?


----------



## BowDown

I masturbate to Yanni. :laugh: Kidding...


----------



## n_olympios

astrochex said:


> His music may not be, but his hair and 'stache certainly used to be...


Well it's definitely not a coincidence that his surname is Chrisomallis, which is greek for "golden-haired".


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> I masturbate to Yanni. :laugh: Kidding...


While reading this build thread, I'm sure


----------



## goodstuff

Just read through all this. Not sure how I missed it. Ridiculous skills. Ridiculous build. Very impressive. 
I was going to ask how the clay was holding up, got my answer there. Love the mini meet pic where everything appears miniaturized and toy like. Never seen anything like that.


----------



## captainobvious

Absolutely epic build Neil. The level of thought, planning and execution shown here is at an amazingly high level for most "pros" let alone a hobby builder. The atention to detail is terrific and it's been alot of fun reading through your progress.

Well done my friend, well done.

-Steve


----------



## Neil_J

captainobvious said:


> Absolutely epic build Neil. The level of thought, planning and execution shown here is at an amazingly high level for most "pros" let alone a hobby builder. The atention to detail is terrific and it's been alot of fun reading through your progress.
> 
> Well done my friend, well done.
> 
> -Steve


Thanks, Captain Obvious :laugh:


----------



## Neil_J

Oh my god, you guys, a pair of these would be perfect to replace my four 8's. I can't wait to see specs and initial user reports... mostly how they stack up to the JL 13TW5's


----------



## trevordj

Which driver is that Neil?


----------



## Neil_J

From Hybrid's facebook page: 



> We were able to capture this elusive unicorn before it went back into the lab for more testing and refinements.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, we introduce the prototype to the Legatia L13 Pro Shallow Depth Subwoofer.
> 
> Specs are not available yet, but as you see it's minuscule depth allows for some very creative installation options, and will be available in two versions: one designed for small sealed enclosure configuration and another for use in infinite baffle applications. — Initial results are extremely positive, but we still have some tweaking to perform yet in order to get it just right.


----------



## bbfoto

Neil_J said:


> From Hybrid's facebook page: Ladies and gentlemen, we introduce the prototype to the Legatia L13 Pro Shallow Depth Subwoofer.



Nice. Looks like it may give up a bit more cone area due to the basket/frame design compared to the JL 13TW's? Will be interesting to see how these do.


----------



## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> Nice. Looks like it may give up a bit more cone area due to the basket/frame design compared to the JL 13TW's? Will be interesting to see how these do.


Yea, but the inverted surrounds are positively lurvely :blush:

I'm a basshead, I'll probably go with whichever one goes lower and louder.


----------



## Orion525iT

Neil_J said:


> Oh my god, you guys, a pair of these would be perfect to replace my four 8's. I can't wait to see specs and initial user reports... mostly how they stack up to the JL 13TW5's


Thats cheating. Are they trying to take all the fun out of this .


----------



## Neil_J

Orion525iT said:


> Thats cheating. Are they trying to take all the fun out of this .


What's cheating?


----------



## trevordj

I'm sure it will be super nice, but keeping with the rest of the HAT pro line I am sure it will be very expensive. 

The new SI BM Mk IVs are supposed to be coming out soon too... although there's been talk of that for the last 2 years. My old SI BM Mk IIIs were sweet and very affordable. I still regret not taking those out of my Volvo before selling it.


----------



## Heterosapian

Hey Neil, I'm looking into sound deadening the mini and had a few questions about your experiences. What was the best return-on-time/materials-invested location you insulated? I don't think I'm pulling the whole interior carpet for a while but I'd like to at least cover the rear under-seat/hatch floor and fender wells. Were a few swatches of cld all you did to the front doors or did I miss something? Anything you would do differently if you went at it again? Thanks man.


----------



## Neil_J

Heterosapian said:


> Hey Neil, I'm looking into sound deadening the mini and had a few questions about your experiences. What was the best return-on-time/materials-invested location you insulated? I don't think I'm pulling the whole interior carpet for a while but I'd like to at least cover the rear under-seat/hatch floor and fender wells. Were a few swatches of cld all you did to the front doors or did I miss something? Anything you would do differently if you went at it again? Thanks man.


Doors. Definitely doors  I took the window glass out, and inside plastic panel that holds the window track completely out, and covered the back of that and on the door skin with Second Skin Damplifier Pro (2 complete sheets on the plastic skin, and about 30% coverage on the sheet metal). It's a few pages back on my build log, and surprisingly, that made my car quieter than most/all of the other work I did. It's VERY quiet on the interstate now, with the exception of the loud runflat tires. I do think it was worth it for me to take the window glass out to get to all the little areas. I can walk you through it if you'd like, it's not nearly as scary as it sounds.

After that, I'd say under the rear quarter panels, under the rear seat, trunk/boot area, and finally the front cabin area, in that order. Luckily doing the rear of the car is pretty easy, and you've already got the panels off.


----------



## bkjay

That looks SWEET! but did you see the new jl10TW3 that bad boy has 15mm of xmax!

10TW3-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - TW3 - JL Audio


----------



## Neil_J

bkjay said:


> That looks SWEET! but did you see the new jl10TW3 that bad boy has 15mm of xmax!
> 
> 10TW3-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - TW3 - JL Audio


Thanks for the heads up, those do look sweet.



















Would be freakin' great for a set of kick panel drivers, no? :surprised:


----------



## quietfly

IDK the HAT driver looks sexier to me. but the proof as they say will be in the pudding..... lets hear these puppies


----------



## Neil_J

I'd only consider thin JL 10's for up front bass. Anything behind the b pillar for me has to be 13" or bigger for me to dump the alpine 8's I'm using now.


----------



## JayinMI

That's saying something about those 8's.

Jay


----------



## mitchjr

Subscribed


----------



## Tominizer

Neil, as usual nice work. I've been messing with the MS8 and the factory Mini head unit and, like you, I'm done. It's just not getting it to where I want it to be. Frustrating. But I had to give it a try and learn for myself. Sometimes I was getting close but getting very low output due to the settings in the MS8 setup being so low. I'd bring the level up during the testing then everything took a crap....... something about the mic not taking to well to the louder test signals or something. I can't remembr exactly as it was all done late last fall and I should have it in my notes somewhere. I just remember giving up on it and thinking if this is to go any further, the source needs to be changed. 

On those windows, I've heard that they can be a painful exercise to take out. It's the next step I have to do on my doors as well. I was glad to hear that it made a big difference and yet saddened as well because I have heard it ain't an easy job at all. And if you FUBAR, it's expensive. But it sounds like the next step I have to take to clam the doors down.

BTW, once again thanks for documenting everything you've done so far. It's not only been inspiring but also very helpful.


----------



## Tominizer

Any updates ?!?!?


My replacement center console arrived today from Metra. Cable for the factory head unit relocate is on the way. Double DIN it will be. Just need to decide on what it will be for the Clubbie.


----------



## Neil_J

Tominizer said:


> Any updates ?!?!?


Well, since you asked.... Here are some teasers, I'll leave it up to the imagination for now as to what purpose these parts might serve (hint, I mentioned it over two years ago on the first few pages of the build thread)









































































I'm going back into hiding now for at a few days/weeks/months in an extremely futile attempt to finish the project once and for all...


----------



## PureDynamics

Now that's a connector!


----------



## JayinMI

WOW! That's sick. 

Jay


----------



## BowDown

Hmm. I'm going to guess a multi speed vibrator. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> Hmm. I'm going to guess a multi speed vibrator.


That connector will pull over 430 amps, that would be one hell of a sex toy  :blush:


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> Hmm. I'm going to guess a multi speed vibrator.


Actually that answer's not far off, if I play my Pandora Dubstep station


----------



## bbfoto

Noice!!! Was wondering what you've been up to regarding the Mini install as of late. Good stuff.


----------



## edzyy




----------



## Neil_J

Here's one more just to prove I'm trying to keep my posts car-audio related:










And a repeat shot of the connector for reference:









For those still scratching their head, the giant connector will allow me to remove the giant amp rack (with four amplifiers, DSP, and microcontroller-controlled 500+ custom LED sequencer) by just unplugging a single (albeit large) plug. It's zero-insertion force, guaranteed for thousands of connection cycles, and very reliable as it's intended for the aerospace industry (and priced accordingly  )

The connections, as indicated in the spreadsheet screenshot above, are as follows:
4 power leads, rated at ~60 amps each
4 grounds, rated at ~60 amps each
Speaker channels are:

Front left (Hybrid L3SE and L1 Pro R2, passive via Hybrid L2x crossover)
Front center (currently a Tang Band bamboo cone 3")
Front right (Hybrid L3SE and L1 Pro R2, passive via Hybrid L2x crossover)
Front left midbass (Hybrid L6SE)
Front right midbass (Hybrid L6SE)
Rear left (Hybrid Mirus 6x9)
Rear right (Hybrid Mirus 6x9)
All speaker pins are rated at ~10 amps. Midbass and subwoofers use two pins each, so 20 amps for those. 
There's one wire for the remote turnon, and three for the digital serial bus which will control all of the LEDs. I've got some good ideas on how to use the remaining unused pins...


----------



## edzyy

whoa


----------



## The Performer

robolop said:


> I also think you&#146;ve failed here &#133; When I look at the rest you&#146;ve made, you underperformed.
> I don&#146;t quite understand why you didn&#146;t mount the speaker from underneath, and then cover it with cloth or something&#133;you won&#146;t see anything then.
> Perhaps the speakers are too big, but then you disc a couple of mm of, no? But for all the rest you made, RESPECT


Im gonna have to agree with rob here, you should not posted pics of this. Knocked some points off the rest of what you're doing.


----------



## Neil_J

The Performer said:


> Im gonna have to agree with rob here, you should not posted pics of this. Knocked some points off the rest of what you're doing.


Lol... Still getting complaints on that, I see  For what it's worth, I covered it with speaker grill cloth back in March.


----------



## strakele

Glad to see some updates Neil. Looking forward to seeing the ultimate finished product.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Neil

This install is freaking EPIC, ranks right up with the "ONE BAD ASS BMW330"

I had a feeling that mega connector was for system removal. I was wondering 
about something like this in my car for track day usage. Now, I know what to 
look for and to set aside a few hundred bucks being an aerospace piece. 

lastly, could you please share with me the source for your fire extinguisher and 
bracket. I'm in need of one of these for my 911. 

updated: I did some back digging and found that the extinguisher bracket is a
Rennline, I was hoping it was some other brand that was less expensive.....

Thanks, and again great install!
Scott


----------



## bbfoto

Neil_J said:


> Here's one more just to prove I'm trying to keep my posts car-audio related:


That's PIMP, Neil!  Lurv it. I looked into using those connectors a few years back, but yeah, expensive, and mostly I'm not that ambitious, haha. I got a headache thinking about having to wire it up, and convinced myself not to do it by telling myself that I'd probably NEVER remove my setup even once after I got the system installed. :blush:

Props for going the extra mile!

But are you sure you're not planning to go "Back to the Future" with your Mini? 

I also looked into using Veam, Phase 3, or Socapex 19-pin Stage Lighting Connectors since I use them on my big 4k/6k/12k/18k Arri HMI Arc Studio Fresnel Lights that I rent. That's another option if someone is looking to do something similar. They are also capable of carrying high-current and voltage and water-tight versions are available, but they aren't cheap either. Those in the pics below are about 2" diameter.


----------



## Neil_J

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I had a feeling that mega connector was for system removal. I was wondering
> about something like this in my car for track day usage. Now, I know what to
> look for and to set aside a few hundred bucks being an aerospace piece.


That connector was more than a few hundred bucks, unfortunately. Even the aerospace company that I work for feels there too expensive to use, and they're a multi-billion dollar corporation (okay they're extremely cheap when it comes to buying stuff which is why they're profitable, and my car isn't). It was under $1000, but barely (so less than a P99 or some ultra high end amps). Most of the money is in the gold pins, they're plated extremely thick, and I bought them back when the gold market was incredibly high. I could have gone with something cheaper, but decided since I'm going the extra mile (except for my center channel, lol) that I'd do it right the first time. The hardest part was calling them up and ordering, they wouldn't let me order without a company name, so I made one up. I felt like I was trying to buy meth precursor chemicals or something. My townhome apartment number became my business suite number


----------



## Tominizer

And I thought I was a champ stuffing a 15" into the boot of my Mini. That's duck farts comapred to this.

This is beyond going the extra mile. Your Mini is a thing of passion as there's areas here that are just beyond sanity. System is going to be worth more than the Mini soon my friend. Looking forward to what you're going to do with that center channel. I'd have a look at the new dome mid from Hybrid Audio that Scott is releasing. I think it may resolve the "cosmetics" issues you are encountering with all your "fans" that are commenting on it!! From initial testing that I read, it's a nice mid with a good frequency range.










Next to his tweeters.


----------



## Neil_J

Tominizer said:


> I'd have a look at the new dome mid from Hybrid Audio that Scott is releasing. I think it may resolve the "cosmetics" issues you are encountering with all your "fans" that are commenting on it!! From initial testing that I read, it's a nice mid with a good frequency range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next to his tweeters.


Thanks for the kind words. Interesting suggestion about the dome. I've seen it several times, but never put 2+2 together and thought about running it as a center channel. Sucks it costs more than a L3SE, and has a higher recommended high-pass freq, otherwise I'd seriously consider it. I think it would look great visually, too.


----------



## metalball

That quick connector is nuts! Great idea but far from "practical". Definite props on the build thus far.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## Neil_J

metalball said:


> That quick connector is nuts! Great idea but far from "practical". Definite props on the build thus far.


What is this "practical" word you speak of?


----------



## BowDown

So what kind of quick release system do you have in the works?


----------



## bbfoto

BowDown said:


> So what kind of quick release system do you have in the works?


The amp rack has a built-in 6-axis accelorometer and GLONAS GPS which allows it to precisely locate the Mini and automatically dock in place using sonic levitation. Electromagnetic locks then engage to secure the rack in place. The multi-pin rack connector is the only apparatus that must be connected and disconnected with human intervention, which was purposely and specifically chosen to provide a fail-safe so that the computer cannot over-ride human commands and take complete control over the system. Sonic Nirvana is then initiated by voice commands from the cockpit after a retinal scan positively identifies Neil. Once the music is initiated it automatically attracts supermodels from all reaches of the planet who seek out the Mini and then strip to the orgasmic beat eminating from within. The computer then injects a mind altering aphrodesiac into the waveforms, and sequentially pulses the thousands of LEDs in the amp rack to hypnotize the ladies, causing the supermodels to ...(censored).  Sorry Neil! :blush:


----------



## Neil_J




----------



## JayinMI

Sounds like someone else might work in the aerospace industry, lol.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

Got the mating side of the connector soldered up and crimped last night, and managed to get it installed today, in the sweltering July 4th heat...


















I accidentally coated the wrong side of the plywood with 3M spray adhesive... whoops. I guess it'll stick to the car better that way.









































































A few notes about the the picture above:
(1) the amp rack is huge;
(2) the trunk (boot for the British folks) is tiny;
(3) the mass-interconnect plug allows me to remove the entire amp rack by simply unplugging it, and removing four 1/4"-20 thumbscrews that holds the aluminum extrusion to the subwoofer box.
(4) By adding a few wires, I can have my Alpine CDA-117 deck wired to the receiver side of the connector, so that, when the amp rack is unplugged, the deck-amplified signals are sent to the speakers, so I'll still have audio when unplugged. This is kind of cool because I still occasionally take the car to the auto-cross track, which are conveniently located hundreds of miles from my house.
(5) Point 4 is just another proof that this project may never be fully-finished 
(6) It's pretty when it lights up, hopefully I'll have some videos taken with the Canon 5D to prove it.


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## papasin

Fantastic work!


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## bertholomey

Unbelievable! 

What I mean to say.....if I weren't looking at the pictures, I wouldn't believe it. 

Phenomenal job Neil! Really looking forward to the video.


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## BowDown

Top notch man.. Top notch. 

I can't imagine spending 1/3rd my car audio investment on a connector, but it sure is perdy. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


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## bbfoto

Truly a work of art, and technology. Really beautiful, Neil. And functional. Gongrats on a fine job!

Now it's time to celebrate your fine work, and Indenpendence Day. Have fun and be safe everyone.


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## Tominizer

Nice amps. I'm using the same, just not as many. And they're not displayed as nicely.......... and farg my setup looks like a hog's azz compared to that stuff posted above. :mean:


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## The Performer

You do damn fine work bro, so do you see why now you've gotten so much hell from your center channel?


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## bigjeep127

Gotta say that the work you do is truly beautiful Neil. The amp rack and connector make me drool!

When you said aerospace I knew that connector was more than $100  I am an engineer who works with commercial jet engines and I've seen single parts with close to 7 digit price tags. At least you know it's well made though 

Hats off to your build, truly epic!


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## Mixerdriver

Subscribed


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## audio+civic

Subscribed


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## req

damn neil. that is a badass.

i have access to stuff like that with my job too - but i dont think id be able to afford putting something like that in my car. truly awesome work dude. i am glad to have been able to meet up with you and say that i saw it in person!


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## evilspoons

Beautiful connector. 

I work in automation and use stuff like that all the time, but they're not as flashy looking. Is that an Amphenol? Most of the Amphenol connectors I use here are ugly as sin compared to that thing.

Some examples:











I use this kind all the time, but they're usually just full of boring pins (nothing neat like Ethernet hiding in there):










As you can see though - pretty ugly stuff. Haha.


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## Neil_J

evilspoons said:


> Beautiful connector.
> 
> I work in automation and use stuff like that all the time, but they're not as flashy looking. Is that an Amphenol? Most of the Amphenol connectors I use here are ugly as sin compared to that thing.


Virginia Panel Corporation i1 series:
http://www.vpc.com/solutions/i1.cfm


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## Neil_J

Started the whole system up today for the first time since the addition of the connectorsaurus. Everything works as expected, and it only takes 10 minutes or so to install and remove. It's also the first time with the CDA-117 head unit and RUX commander properly installed in the dash. 

Oh, and one of my JL XD amps is making weird noises on the sub channel, I think it's got to go out for warranty repair, if it's still within warranty. Im so ready to get this project done (and be done spending money) that I'm halfway tempted just to leave it unplugged and forget about it for a while (I do have three other working sub channels after all)


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## JayinMI

I had a car in the other day with the prefab 8" Type-R box. I can only imagine what 4 of them must be like. I'm sure 3 would probably still be pretty impressive, lol

Jay


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## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> I had a car in the other day with the prefab 8" Type-R box. I can only imagine what 4 of them must be like. I'm sure 3 would probably still be pretty impressive, lol


It vibrates the roof at 100 hz like crazy if I set the low-pass up that high. Yet has problems getting down low past 40 Hz without distortion. If I had a bigger car, I'd have a pair of them as midbasses, that seems to be where they're happier playing.. Mounted in the kicks of course. And then of course a 15" or two for subwoofer duty. 

I just installed an Image Dynamics 12" in my girlfriends Mini, and you know what, I prefer the transient response of the Type R 8', hands down, even with the inferior frequency response.


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## Blue Angel

Are the subs still sealed or did you try a vented alignment?

I was playing around with my computer audio system the other day. It uses a vented 8" sub that I built (Aura NS8). Sometimes I plug the vent and like the fact that lows aren't over exaggerated and I can set the gain a bit higher for a bit more punch. But then I'll uncork the vent and wonder how I could do without all that sub-40 information. The power handling, output and distortion on lower end material just comes alive with the vent opened up.

Four of them might fix that problem, but on a single driver the vented alignment can't be beat.


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## Neil_J

They're sealed, 0.3 cubes each, and use quite a bit of eq to flatten everything out. Boost sub 40 Hz and heavy cuts around the peak, using the 1/6 octave parametric on the H800. It does the job I guess. I just want to be finished with this project, I can't see re-doing it at this point when it's already as good as it is.


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## greywarden

Finally read through all of this, awesome work, I love the amp installation so much!


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## Neil_J

Now that the amp rack's out of the way, I'm moving on to custom A-pillars for my L3SE's and L1 Pro R2's next! 

This is my first attempt at fiberglass. Wish me luck!

P.S. I owe you guys some pictures once the weather gets a bit better. I've done all of the work the last two weeks in the rain, with the back of the car pulled into the garage. Miserable weather we've been having, such is Florida in the summer. Wet and humid and hot.


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## req

same here neil.

if you have any questions about the pillars, dont hesistate to call 

good luck sir!


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## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> Now that the amp rack's out of the way, I'm moving on to custom A-pillars for my L3SE's and L1 Pro R2's next!
> 
> This is my first attempt at fiberglass. Wish me luck!
> 
> P.S. I owe you guys some pictures once the weather gets a bit better. I've done all of the work the last two weeks in the rain, with the back of the car pulled into the garage. Miserable weather we've been having, such is Florida in the summer. Wet and humid and hot.


With your attention to detail and precision, I'm sure it will be no problem for you. Just make sure you scuff up the a-pillar panel with a low grit sand paper and drill plenty of holes for the filler/resin to pass through so you'll get a good bond. That plastic is quite slippery. Also, skip the bondo and use Evercoat brand Rage Gold for your filler. It sands much easier than bondo and is a much better quality product.

Looking forward to seeing pictures 


-Steve


.


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## Neil_J

Those are great suggestions. 

I could actually use a TON of help with fiberglass, I have NO idea what I'm doing. Here's what I' have right now, all of which was given to me by South East Customz after he built my girlfriend's sub box.

* Just under a gallon of FGCI polyester resin (it says "GP Hand Lay-up")
* a tiny little bottle of MEK peroxide, I think this is hardener?
* 1/2 quart of Evercoat Lite Weight non-clog lightweight filler
* a few little sheets of fiberglass mat (should be enough for the pillars)
* some professional masking tape

That's about it. I want to run to West Marine boat store later tonight or tomorrow and pick up the remainder of anything I need, like ventilators, stuff to mix with, disposable cups, etc. Any suggestions at all, please post them below. I don't have a lot of time to research unfortunately, I'm hoping to leverage the collective experience of diyma a bit here  Thanks in advance.


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## AccordUno

Here's a tip, don't bother getting disposable cups. Go buy the cheapest water in a gallon that you can find. Cut a hole big enough for you to dip your brush in and pour the resin and mekp in. Once the resin hardens, you can pop it out and reuse until the plastic cracks. 

Same goes for the butter containers..


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## Neil_J

I think I'm going to wrap the MDF rings and pillar plastic with fleece and coat with resin, I've seen others on Diyma that did it that way and it seems like a good way to go. Then add mat material behind the fleece with more resin. Finally use some filler and sand, then probably plasti-dip the final product. I'd like to vinyl wrap but that's way over my skill level. I don't have painting supplies so I think the plasti-dip will be rugged enough, if a little ugly. I'll be making some bling-rings and metal mesh for the L3SE's that should look sort of like Scott's G35


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## robolop

Neil_J said:


> I think I'm going to wrap the MDF rings and pillar plastic with fleece and coat with resin, I've seen others on Diyma that did it that way and it seems like a good way to go. Then add mat material behind the fleece with more resin. Finally use some filler and sand, then probably plasti-dip the final product. I'd like to vinyl wrap but that's way over my skill level. I don't have painting supplies so I think the plasti-dip will be rugged enough, if a little ugly. I'll be making some bling-rings and metal mesh for the L3SE's that should look sort of like Scott's G35



GO 4 IT


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## Neil_J

Buying black fleece at JoAnn Fabric for the pillars


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## JayinMI

Man, black fleece is soooo boring. Couldn't you find some GI Joe or something? lol

As above, I cut the tops off of empty 32oz Gatorade bottles to mix resin in.

If West marine has fiberglass rollers, pick some up. Then go to Harbor Freight and pick up the cheapest box of 2" chip brushes (paint brushes) you can find. 

I prefer fleece for large items like sub boxes. On smaller items (like pillar buildouts) I prefer something thinner like grill cloth or maybe t-shirt material (or similar.) It keeps the detail better. If you search through Simplicity in Sound's pillar builds, he does something like this and then fills the back side with "milkshake." (Typically a mix of resin and body filler. When *I* do it, I use the MEKP and the cream hardener for the filler...but there's no wrong way. It's pretty hard to screw it up bad enough that it won't work.) 


Jay


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## Neil_J

They had some cool patterns there for sure, lol..

I think this is going to be easy enough. The only thing I can't figure out is how to make the rings for the hybrid tweeters. They only end up being a few mm thick which means I'm worried about splitting the wood, all I have is a cheap jigsaw and a mouse orbital sander. And I couldn't find MDF so I'm going with birch ply from Lowes...


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## JayinMI

Crap. There was a guy (for the life of me, I can't remember his name ATM) who had a BMW 1 series and a Subaru before that. He moved to Florida a couple years ago, and had a CNC router that he had made some stuff for HAT speakers, IIRC, maybe he could help you?

Not having a router will make it harder. If you were up here, I'd bust them out for you just to say I did something on your car, lol.

Jay


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## Neil_J

I can send you a drawing and paypal cash if you're up for it


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## JayinMI

How soon do you need them? I imagine by the time I got them made and mailed it'd be next week. Shoot me a drawing and I'll let you know if I think I can pull it off.

Jay


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## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> How soon do you need them? I imagine by the time I got them made and mailed it'd be next week. Shoot me a drawing and I'll let you know if I think I can pull it off.
> 
> Jay


See below. The dimensions are in millimeters with inches in brackets. I can drill the four mounting holes on the mids. I don't think they're necessarily hard, I'm just really busy these days (who's not, I guess?) and am willing to contract them out in order to get them done right the first time. Let me know either way.


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## charliekwin

Neil_J said:


> The only thing I can't figure out is how to make the rings for the hybrid tweeters. They only end up being a few mm thick which means I'm worried about splitting the wood, all I have is a cheap jigsaw and a mouse orbital sander.


I spent a little over $100 on this drill press from Amazon, which turned out to be an invaluable purchase beyond just my build. If you do any other hobby stuff like this, you might want to consider making the investment.

Cut out your rings with the jigsaw or drill press, and clean up with a drum sanding bit. That's how I did it, anyway.


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## Neil_J

charliekwin said:


> I spent a little over $100 on this drill press from Amazon, which turned out to be an invaluable purchase beyond just my build. If you do any other hobby stuff like this, you might want to consider making the investment.
> 
> Cut out your rings with the jigsaw or drill press, and clean up with a drum sanding bit. That's how I did it, anyway.


I have a drill press like that. Maybe I'll see if I can find a hole saw with the right diameter for the tweeters. that would make it a piece of cake.


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## JayinMI

Probably quicker and easier of you have the drill press already!

Jay


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## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> Probably quicker and easier of you have the drill press already!
> 
> Jay


True... I didn't think about using the drill press (don't laugh). 

I'm gonna try a 3" hole saw for the mids: 


and a 1-3/4" for the tweet:


I think I can pull this off tomorrow night. Stay tuned.

Edit: Going to buy the hole saws on amazon, they're cheaper that way. Will probably be doing the fabrication this weekend.


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## JayinMI

If you should want to use some low temp plastic to make a recessed area for a grill, you might be able to use Kydex. It's a heat formable plastic. I got a 12x24" piece on eBay for like $7. Might be able to find it locally, but I hadn't looked.

Jay


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## thebookfreak58

Another way, is to use the knurled attachment ring, and simply bog/FG that straight into the pillars! (This is for the tweeters...)


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## bbfoto

Looking forward to what you come up with for the pillars. 

x2 on using grill cloth or spandex on the pillars. It will come out much smoother than using fleece, so you should have much less sanding to do...a BIG Plus! Oh, and don't use hot glue to secure the rings, baffles, or fabric. It'll release when the resin comes in contact with it. x2 for Bing's A-Pillar fabrication as well. 

I love West Marine for some of the goodies that they stock, but [email protected] they're expensive! If there's one close to you, get what you can at Harbor Freight as suggested. 

The main thing with FG is to Prep EVERYTHING as thoroughly as possible before you start. You're a fairly organized bloke, so I don't see you having much trouble in that department.  Good luck!


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## JayinMI

As BBFoto said, don't use hot glue or spray adhesive. I prefer CA glue. Holds well. If you use grille cloth or something, it might sag a little if you put too much resin (or pressure while applying resin). I usually try to use as little pressure as possible and get enough resin on it so it will hold it's shape and then work everything else on the inside. Then the outside is a little hand sanding to knock down any nubs and a quick coat of body filler.

What are you planning as a finish? If you plan to wrap them in something, try to take that in consideration when designing your pods so you don't have sharp angles, low spots, etc. It will save you a TON on effort when you try to wrap (or have them wrapped). 

Jay


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## Neil_J

I have plenty of CA glue and speaker cloth, and old t-shirts, I'll see what works and go from there. I assume that I'm painting the resin on the fabric with the paint brushes you recommended? Also, what type of ventilator should I pick up? I have one of those 3M types but need replacement cartridges. Or will the cheap ones work?


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## charliekwin

Neil_J said:


> I have plenty of CA glue and speaker cloth, and old t-shirts, I'll see what works and go from there. I assume that I'm painting the resin on the fabric with the paint brushes you recommended? Also, what type of ventilator should I pick up? I have one of those 3M types but need replacement cartridges. Or will the cheap ones work?


Thinner fabrics work better when you have smaller, more intricate shapes. Stretchy is nice too -- think spandex or nylons.

3M mask does a fine job, but honestly, if you're working outside, quickly, on a small project, you can get away without using a mask. It's obviously not something I would make a habit of, but for a once-in-a-while project, it's not gonna kill you.


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## mnjordan

I can cut you some rings on my CNC if JayinMI doesn't want to mess with it. I have 0.5", 0.75", and 1.125" (!) mdf in my shop at the moment. I have some .375" eastern maple as well. I might have enough 0.5" clear acyrlic. I'll check when I get home.


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## Neil_J

mnjordan said:


> I can cut you some rings on my CNC if JayinMI doesn't want to mess with it. I have 0.5", 0.75", and 1.125" (!) mdf in my shop at the moment. I have some .375" eastern maple as well. I might have enough 0.5" clear acyrlic. I'll check when I get home.


Let me see if I can bang out a set of rings with my primitive set of tools this weekend... I'll hit you up if that turns out to be a dead-end... Thanks for the heads-up. I may be contacting you about a set of custom L6SE grill rings that I posted many pages back.


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## req

yea neil. do NOT use fleece for something thin and intricate like this. do NOT use rubber (spray adhesive or hot glue) as it does NOT sand for **** and any epoxy will NOT stick to it.

i would buy some stretchy nylon type stuff, like inside of swim shorts, or something to that effect - even a 99 cent pair of stockings would work. look at bings work;
*pictures coutrsey of Bing and J0ey from Simplicity In Sound*
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1895172-post3.html










he uses low heat plastic to form the recess, and a piece of thin MDF for the ring. use wood dowels (i use chopsticks because they are free) cut to length and CA glue to situate it all at the correct position *THEN LISTEN TO IT BEFORE YOU GLASS IT* make adjustments as needed.









using THIN material, wrap both pillars the same way using CA glue on the pillars. these VW pillars are kind of fuzzy cloth crap, if yours are solid plastic, i would drill holes in the area that will contact the cloth and scuff it up real good with some sand paper, and clean with acetone before you move on









then apply resin to ONLY THE CLOTH. dont put resin on the whole piece - you will be unhappy. (he did it here because the whole piece is covered in that fuzzy cloth stuff, but that is a real specific case - and if yours is plastic i DO NOT RECOMMEND IT)









see how the cloth touched the dowel in this picture in the left pillar? you want to install the dowels so that the cloth will NOT touch them, so you dont have to sand the crap out of it to look smooth.









sand and fill the fiberglass area, smooth it out to the plastic as best you can. from the BACK side through the pillar, you can either mix body filler + resin (if its the same kind of base - there are 3 basic types of resin; Polyester, Vinyl ester and Epoxy - and if the filler is not the same as your fiberglass resin, i dont suggest mixing them. just a tip - acetone will clean off filler and resin, and it can act as a thinning agent as well - just like with paint + paint thinner. so from the back, put some reinforcement in there - personally i like fiberglass reinforced body filler. its like a paste\gel resin with small strands of fiberglass hair. smear it on the inside - or you can do the milkshake and get it all over the inside. using dampener here helps kill resonances.









then scuff the thing with the proper sand paper (250 grit?) and prime it with the proper high build primer, sand it again so its double smooth. if you are going to plastidip it - WAIT SEVERAL DAYS >_< - fiberglass\resin\paint will cure, and release gasses - called outgassing. if you plastidip it before it does this, you will get bubbles under the plastidip like i did. i learned this the hard way 









then paint with the paint of your choice, or wrap it in grill cloth using some 3M super 77, 80, or 90 spray adhesive and you should be good to go.









i hope that clears up anything you were questionable with. the 2" brushes from harbor freight are amazing. use this to apply the fiberglass resin to the stretched cloth.








Chip Brushes - Pack of 36 2" Industrial Grade Chip Brushes

use nitrile gloves for sure. as far as a respirator? you arent doing something heavy enough to really warrant it - if you have one, use it. i dont ever use them. i do my glassing outside - so its not a huge issue... but safety first.

the outer ring of the baffle should be as exact of a shape as you want it to be, otherwise there will be lots of sanding. it should be really nice and taught in all directions, no sagging. if the wrapped shape of the baffle+cloth is not something you think is pretty - STOP and redo it. there should be ZERO wrinkles. if there are wrinkles after you stretch, or your baffle buckles - stop and redo it. its a million times easier to get it right at this stage than after you lay down the resin.


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## Neil_J

AWESOME ADVICE, req, much appreciated  (and everyone else for that matter). I can't believe I didn't start this stuff sooner. I don't know what I was afraid of...


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## Mic10is

realistically you can get away with using Tshirt material. Most Tshirt are thin enough to use. just cut the collar off and the sleeve area if its a rolled over sleeve.

pull everything tight so you dont have wrinkles.
CA glue with activator works awesome. Run a bead of CA along the edges where you want the fabric to stick, spray the kicker and then pull and hold for a few seconds. then move on to the next part.

Depending on where your pull seams are, Ive used Hot glue many times with zero issues.

I typically try and do all my pulls so all my reinforcement work can be done on the inside. using Tshirt leaves a fairly good surface which will require little sanding to get smooth for most material finishes. but if you start laying matting etc on the outside, then youll have to use alot more body filler to get a perfect surface.

so look to do your reinforcement on the inside of the pod. which will equal less work on the outside and make it easier to finish with much less sanding


----------



## Neil_J

I don't have any thermoform plastic to form a lip around the midrange driver. I see kydex on amazon for cheap, but I'm wondering if I can get away with skipping it and just use filler or something else??


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## JayinMI

You _could_, but it would make the job infinitely harder. There was a post in one of the build threads where a guy used some wood laminate edging (comes in a roll at Home Depot, I guess) and glued some together and then wrapped it around in the same fashion as the plastic. Probably a much better way to go, if you don't want to wait for plastic.


If you have Amazon Prime, they have 2 days shipping. I got some from eBay and got in about 3 for Kydex strips (12x24)


Jay


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## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> You _could_, but it would make the job infinitely harder. There was a post in one of the build threads where a guy used some wood laminate edging (comes in a roll at Home Depot, I guess) and glued some together and then wrapped it around in the same fashion as the plastic. Probably a much better way to go, if you don't want to wait for plastic.
> 
> 
> If you have Amazon Prime, they have 2 days shipping. I got some from eBay and got in about 3 for Kydex strips (12x24)
> 
> 
> Jay


Eh. It's the difference between finishing it this weekend or next weekend.


----------



## astrochex

req said:


> using THIN material, wrap both pillars the same way using CA glue on the pillars. these VW pillars are kind of fuzzy cloth crap, if yours are solid plastic, i would drill holes in the area that will contact the cloth and scuff it up real good with some sand paper, and clean with acetone before you move on


This appears to be the trickiest part. Do you glue the material to the baffle first with the CA glue, then work the material outward, attaching it to the pillar to get the shape you want?


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## Mic10is

Ive used wood laminate edging several times. You can pick it up at any HD or Lowes in the precut wood board section.
Just wrap it around a few times. works well.


----------



## Reyne

Might be a bit late, but have you seen this tool before ? Cutting blades are adjustable to whatever you want. Goes in a drill press obviously.


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## Tominizer

Hmmmmm, never seen that blade setup before. That may cause me to spend money and get a drill press now if it cuts nice circles. Big question is what thickness of material can it go through before getting bent out of shape ? Or is it pretty good and more dependent on operator patience??


----------



## Neil_J

Reyne said:


> Might be a bit late, but have you seen this tool before ? Cutting blades are adjustable to whatever you want. Goes in a drill press obviously.


I had a very bad time with that thing many years back.... It's very dangerous if your work is not clamped down tight. It works a hell of a lot better in a milling machine than it does in a drill press. If your drill arbor knocks loose or it's not clamped down, someone's getting some cuts, bruises, and/or decapitated fingers :surprised:


----------



## req

yea wood laminate should work no problem. look online and see if there are any local plastic manufacturers or distributors - even sign shops. ask them if they have any scraps of low heat plastic that is 1\8" thick - the sign shops should bins of the stuff. they should be willing to sell any scraps that they have for a few bucks.

when i was looking for a large flat white sheet of plastic for my projector screen, i found a local distributor that shipped it to my house - 5'x10' sheet for $120. i am sure there should be something local to you


----------



## mnjordan

Here's your midrange dimensions, with a .125" lip added. I recently made some of these on my CNC for an MB Quart tweeter for the first iteration of my system design (long abandoned, naturally). 

The lip sat about 0.25" proud of the tweeter mounting surface, so it would be totally flush once installed. I made mine out of maple instead of mdf, so they would be very smooth for painting, even after routing. One piece, no plastic, easy to do:










Let me know, I'll crank them out.


----------



## req

do you do this as a forum service? if so, PM me - i would like to know the cost of this service as i will be requiring your services


----------



## mnjordan

req said:


> do you do this as a forum service? if so, PM me - i would like to know the cost of this service as i will be requiring your services


I'll be happy to build rings for my DIYMA brethren. Shoot me a PM.


----------



## ecbmxer

Mic10is said:


> Ive used wood laminate edging several times. You can pick it up at any HD or Lowes in the precut wood board section.
> Just wrap it around a few times. works well.


I was just gonna suggest this. Used the Band-It edging form Lowes on my rings and it was perfect! I made some previously where I used a thicker material and it makes such a difference in overall size on the pillars to use something very thin to make the recess edge.


----------



## Mic10is

ecbmxer said:


> I was just gonna suggest this. Used the Band-It edging form Lowes on my rings and it was perfect! I made some previously where I used a thicker material and it makes such a difference in overall size on the pillars to use something very thin to make the recess edge.


one advantage of using this is you can easily cut with a razor knife if there is too much of a lip


----------



## req

yea this is way cool. i didnt even think about looking for a roll of edge laminate.

Shop BAND-IT 2 x 8' Red Oak Iron-On Edging at Lowes.com


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## Mic10is

U just need a heatgun to activate the adhesive. Set it out in the sun for awhile to get the adhesive tacky, then as you go around, heat it up and it sticks well.
do 2 or 3 layers for a nice thickeness to prevent sagging or flexing when you pull the material over to glass.
if its too thin it will cave and sag when material is pulled over it


----------



## Neil_J

Cardboard mockup pictures:









































































































































So what do you guys think?? Off-axis, or on-axis?


----------



## Neil_J

So everyone remembers Scott's G35 with custom trim rings for his A-pillar midranges:










I'm going to attempt something similar, but I can't afford to machine them from aluminum, as I've blown my money on other parts of the build  Instead, I'm going to attempt to have them made on a 3d printer (the laser beam type, not the squishy plastic type):










I'm not 100% sure that the cheapo polished alumide will give me the luster that I need, but we'll see. For $20 it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work, and maybe I can paint it or plate it... It's times like this that I wished I had a full CNC machine shop 

Edit: I actually think 3M chrome vinyl wrap over the 3D printed plastic might turn out pretty slick, and would cost less than $50 for the pair.


----------



## bertholomey

Neil_J said:


> Cardboard mockup pictures:
> 
> So what do you guys think?? Off-axis, or on-axis?


Tough call - depends I guess on end goal. Off - will get them tighter to the pillars - less intrusive - some would argue (from experience) that this could need more processing to get 'right' (of course you are using center channel, so that might be less of an issue). 

On - more purpose built for audio (then aesthetic, but I know you will make it look great), but again, some would argue more straightforward tuning wise - just my (squishy) opinion.


----------



## Neil_J

Hopefully I'll have time to aim them and listen tomorrow... I think on-axis (maybe 15 degrees toed-in) will sound better, but the off-axis will be a lot less intrusive on my car. Oh, what I wouldn't do for a huge raked windshield and giant a-pillars like the new Civics...


----------



## Reyne

Neil_J said:


> I had a very bad time with that thing many years back.... It's very dangerous if your work is not clamped down tight. It works a hell of a lot better in a milling machine than it does in a drill press. If your drill arbor knocks loose or it's not clamped down, someone's getting some cuts, bruises, and/or decapitated fingers :surprised:


Haha. Yeah clamping your work down properly is a no brainer. I have used "That Thing" to make 6 sets of rings and nothing has ever come loose. No more dangerous than a router, but whatever


----------



## mnjordan

Neil_J said:


> So everyone remembers Scott's G35 with custom trim rings for his A-pillar midranges:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to attempt something similar, but I can't afford to machine them from aluminum, as I've blown my money on other parts of the build  Instead, I'm going to attempt to have them made on a 3d printer (the laser beam type, not the squishy plastic type):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not 100% sure that the cheapo polished alumide will give me the luster that I need, but we'll see. For $20 it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work, and maybe I can paint it or plate it... It's times like this that I wished I had a full CNC machine shop
> 
> Edit: I actually think 3M chrome vinyl wrap over the 3D printed plastic might turn out pretty slick, and would cost less than $50 for the pair.


Check your email, Neil.


----------



## papasin

Neil_J said:


> Hopefully I'll have time to aim them and listen tomorrow... I think on-axis (maybe 15 degrees toed-in) will sound better, but the off-axis will be a lot less intrusive on my car. Oh, what I wouldn't do for a huge raked windshield and giant a-pillars like the new Civics...


The latest Civic (9th gen: 2012-2013) actually did away with them. My parents have one and I'm disappointed in its SQ potential . It's the 8th gen sedan that does (2006-2011), coupe isn't as fortunate. The Honda Fit I believe has pretty large a-pillars where you can easily stuff 5s and not look out of place, along with a Toyota Prius, Nissan Leaf, and a few other offerings by Kia .


----------



## req

if you are looking into having them 3d printed, why not have the whole baffle and grill made up as a one piece thing?

thats what i would do haha.

but seriously, hook them up and listen to them (stuff back behind them with some absorbant crap to tame the backwave) and listen for a bit before you cut or do anything. its not worth going through all this custom fab to not have it as best as you can get it. a week of toying is well worth it.


----------



## Neil_J

req said:


> if you are looking into having them 3d printed, why not have the whole baffle and grill made up as a one piece thing?
> 
> thats what i would do haha.
> 
> but seriously, hook them up and listen to them (stuff back behind them with some absorbant crap to tame the backwave) and listen for a bit before you cut or do anything. its not worth going through all this custom fab to not have it as best as you can get it. a week of toying is well worth it.


3D printed stuff is still pretty expensive, and I've no clue how it stands up to heat and how it adheres to fiberglass. Hopefully mnjordan will be able to machine a set of rings on his CNC, just like the cardboard mockups, but with a recess for the L3SE.. made out of 1/4" MDF.



















I'm probably going to 3D print the silver trim rings (indicated in magenta in the above pic) to look just like Scott's G35 (pic above), and wrap them with 3M or Avery chrome vinyl:





Yea, I've got at least a week at this point to aim them and see how it sounds (it's raining here at the moment, so no chance of doing it today  ).


----------



## Offroader5

That video right there confirms why professionals are sometimes the best/smartest way to get something done. He made wrapping that tough shape seem like childs play.

Read through the whole thread yesterday and today...DUDE, what do you do for a living? That amp rack is ridiculous! A lot of thought, planning, and down right smarts came together into an amazing piece. Kudos on going way outside the box.

I do CAD for a living and I can solder, and have a very novice understanding of electronic circuits, but to even think of trying to assemble something as complex as this build just scrambles my brain. Nice job.


----------



## Neil_J

I just placed an order for my custom-designed L3SE "chrome" trim rings, from a pretty cool company called Shapeways:










Link to 3d model: Hybrid Audio L3SE speaker trim ring by FlyingLotus1983 on Shapeways

They were $20 each to 3d print, and I should have them within two weeks. The material chosen was white strong&flexible plastic. As I said earlier, I'm going to wrap them with 3M chrome vinyl and hope they come out looking shiny and metal-looking  We'll see.


----------



## Offroader5

Neil_J said:


> I just placed an order for my custom-designed L3SE "chrome" trim rings, from a pretty cool company called Shapeways:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link to 3d model: Hybrid Audio L3SE speaker trim ring by FlyingLotus1983 on Shapeways
> 
> They were $20 each to 3d print, and I should have them within two weeks. The material chosen was white strong&flexible plastic. As I said earlier, I'm going to wrap them with 3M chrome vinyl and hope they come out looking shiny and metal-looking  We'll see.


I've had Shapeways bookmarked for a while now for "just in case" I wanted to have something done. Had no idea of what cost would be with them on something custom. $20 doesn't seem bad at all for a one-off grille piece.

You could have just had them do it in stainless and polished it...for a mere $87


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> The latest Civic (9th gen: 2012-2013) actually did away with them. My parents have one and I'm disappointed in its SQ potential . It's the 8th gen sedan that does (2006-2011), coupe isn't as fortunate. The Honda Fit I believe has pretty large a-pillars where you can easily stuff 5s and not look out of place, along with a Toyota Prius, Nissan Leaf, and a few other offerings by Kia .


Hmmm...was that directed at me? lol

I was quite happy to have the window area in my a-pillars to work with. I have much larger pods (3" TB Bamboos, Vifa XT25's) than in my Genesis Coupe and they don't obstruct my view AT ALL in the new car.

Jay


----------



## papasin

JayinMI said:


> Hmmm...was that directed at me? lol
> 
> I was quite happy to have the window area in my a-pillars to work with. I have much larger pods (3" TB Bamboos, Vifa XT25's) than in my Genesis Coupe and they don't obstruct my view AT ALL in the new car.
> 
> Jay


Not entirely, but yeah your Rio and looks like the 2014 Forte has them as well. Quite a few vehicles, and even minivans such as the Honda Odyssey and the Toyota Sienna even have those little windows in the a-pillars with deep dashes...so yeah, let's just say I never look at a vehicle without exploring the SQ potential these days .


----------



## JayinMI

Offroader5 said:


> That video right there confirms why professionals are sometimes the best/smartest way to get something done. He made wrapping that tough shape seem like childs play.


It isn't. It took me like 9 tries to wrap my mirror cap, on one side. and like 3 on the other. It's not rocket science, just order more than you think you will need so you have some for a backup. The rings you're having made will be a much easier shape to wrap than compound curved mirror caps.

Jay


----------



## JayinMI

papasin said:


> so yeah, let's just say I never look at a vehicle without exploring the SQ potential these days .


I've been doing that for years. I always look at speaker sizes, locations, potential locations and options for amp racks and sub boxes, as well as how hard it may be to install an aftermarket HU. lol
One of the reasons I picked the Rio over a Sonic. haha


Jay


----------



## charliekwin

Neil_J said:


> So what do you guys think?? Off-axis, or on-axis?


I would go with either of these last two, but I'm probably in the minority here: I'll trade a bit of sound quality for aesthetics 9 times out of 10.


----------



## n_olympios

Neil_J said:


> I just placed an order for my custom-designed L3SE "chrome" trim rings, from a pretty cool company called Shapeways:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link to 3d model: Hybrid Audio L3SE speaker trim ring by FlyingLotus1983 on Shapeways
> 
> They were $20 each to 3d print, and I should have them within two weeks. The material chosen was white strong&flexible plastic. As I said earlier, I'm going to wrap them with 3M chrome vinyl and hope they come out looking shiny and metal-looking  We'll see.


Cool! Will they incorporate a grille as well?


----------



## Neil_J

n_olympios said:


> Cool! Will they incorporate a grille as well?


Yep, hexagonal mesh to match the tweets and eventually the midbasses.


----------



## ecbmxer

I'd do a kind of compromise between on and off axis. Those L3s have good off axis response on their own, and if your crossover point between the L3 and L1 is chosen to reduce beaming from the 3", the biggest issue would be windshield reflections.

It's just tough to deal with the reality of a huge pod sticking out to do it fully on axis IMO.

I've been working on tuning my setup with a 3" in between on and off axis in the pillars and a 1" tweeter in the sail panel at about the same angle. From my RTA, I definitely don't have any missing top end from being off axis.


----------



## Neil_J

I'm hoping for about 15 degrees toe-in from on-axis relative to the driver's seat (tweeter up top, above the mid, like the last pictures). My mid->tweet crossover is passive, as I picked up a Hybrid L2X crossover network a while back. I think the crossover point is upwards of 5kHz, so I don't think either driver will beam in normal operation. But yea, reflections are what I'm worried about (specifically, one side reflecting differently than the other). That's what killed the staging in my old setup, because no amount of Eq or T/A could fix it. The right side was almost on-axis, while the left was almost completely off-axis (this is car-dependent, and it sucks in mine). This time around, I want them both pointed at my ear holes


----------



## astrochex

Neil_J said:


> Yep, hexagonal mesh to match the tweets and eventually the midbasses.


Do you want to see a pic of the hex-mesh tweeter grills in the Genesis R50 demo car?


----------



## Neil_J

astrochex said:


> Do you want to see a pic of the hex-mesh tweeter grills in the Genesis R50 demo car?


Um, sure, why not


----------



## Tominizer

Neil, I assume your going for the driver side sweet spot only from a listening perspective. Did you get approval from your wife on that  (just kidding).

I'd agree with an earlier comment on the cosmetics of it all. Avoid making it too bulky and invasive where possible. Especially if you like to track your car. 

On another note, did you ever talk to Andy (JBL) about the Mini they setup with the MS8 and leaving the speakers in the factory locations? I tried but got no response. For some reason I seem to remember someone saying that that Mini sounded really good or am I mistaken??? 

Anyways, watching closely what you're doing here. I'll be using different gear but the a-pillars are next on my list with Dayton tweets........... maybe the mids too. :laugh:


----------



## Neil_J

Tominizer said:


> Neil, I assume your going for the driver side sweet spot only from a listening perspective. Did you get approval from your wife on that  (just kidding).
> 
> I'd agree with an earlier comment on the cosmetics of it all. Avoid making it too bulky and invasive where possible. Especially if you like to track your car.
> 
> On another note, did you ever talk to Andy (JBL) about the Mini they setup with the MS8 and leaving the speakers in the factory locations? I tried but got no response. For some reason I seem to remember someone saying that that Mini sounded really good or am I mistaken???
> 
> Anyways, watching closely what you're doing here. I'll be using different gear but the a-pillars are next on my list with Dayton tweets........... maybe the mids too. :laugh:


She doesn't really care what I do to my car, thankfully. I just got done putting an audio system in her Mini Cooper, so she's happy at the moment. 

As for Andy's Mini, it was a 1st gen, which doesn't really share anything with my 2nd gen.. Two totally different cars, even on interior space. Andy really loves keeping the midranges in the doors, and tweets in the sails. You can do that in a 1st gen Mini, but not a second gen. No sail panels, and the midrange door pods are too far down, the path lengths suck and the angles to the driver's ear are terrible. I went on a rant in a thread called "power response 101" about why it didn't work in my car. Even if I could do it, I still don't really agree with Andy's philosophy (doubly so on the MS-8, my god what a horror story that was). Everything in car audio is about compromise, and I'm making a different set of compromises with my build, for better or for worse. I can't really say how we'll it worked out yet, but I will be able to soon.. Very soon


----------



## astrochex

Genesis R50 demo car tweeter grill.

To go slightly off topic, the article this image was taken from notes that the demo car featured a switch that toggled the tweeter output to the standard door location or the kick panels.


----------



## Neil_J

CNC rings courtesy of mnjordan:


----------



## JayinMI

Those look awesome, but pretty thin where the midrange mounts. Any plans to reinforce that area?

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> Those look awesome, but pretty thin where the midrange mounts. Any plans to reinforce that area?


Yea, the 1/4" MDF was really 0.225", and I needed the recess to be quite deep. I'll either reinforce them, or mnjordan has offered to re-cut them from 1/2" MDF. I'm positive I can make them work. Will probably glue some really thin hobby wood to the back with Tite Bond or Gorilla Glue and call it a day. 

I think they came out nice. Thanks again to mnjordan.


----------



## clix`g35

if your going to glass these you can always reinforce with resin and a few layers of mat.


----------



## BowDown

Wow. That looks awesome! Now don't mess em up with all that fiberglass .


----------



## Neil_J

I just can't believe this build is finally coming together


----------



## Tominizer

Interesting thoughts on Andy's Mini. I know the interior layout is slightly different but I thought the overall space of the first gen versus the second was the same. Learn a new thing every day. I didn't know that.

Those pods, any chance of having them machined out of steel plate?


----------



## Neil_J

Tominizer said:


> Interesting thoughts on Andy's Mini. I know the interior layout is slightly different but I thought the overall space of the first gen versus the second was the same. Learn a new thing every day. I didn't know that.
> 
> Those pods, any chance of having them machined out of steel plate?


Well maybe I'm splitting hairs  The 2nd gen Mini is larger but not by much; and it doesn't use the same stock speaker locations, but they're "close" to the same location. I've not heard his Mini, but from what I've read, it's not what I'm going for.

As for machining pods from steel plate, what would be the advantages there?


----------



## req

you can have the metal tapped for the mounting screws of the speakers. they wont break under most circumstances (ie: stretching cloth over them and having them warp\bend\break, or a car accident - god forbid)

but it would be much more expensive. *shrug*

no need really, if you can - why not - but if not, dont bother. i would rather have a rad grill 3d printed.


----------



## Neil_J

Ahh.. That's a good idea. If I can add some thickness to the back of the MDF, I'll try to use hurricane nuts.


----------



## Tominizer

The reason why I mention steel plate is you can build a thinner and yet stronger mounting surface than anything you can build out of wood. I believe in the DLS Mini (if my memory is serving me rite!) they did this but they also used a ring on top of the driver to sandwich it between the plate and the ring for the ultimate rigid mounting solution. Polished steel or brushed steel with a clear coat if you fancy shiny stuff. 

If you're building thin wood parts (that may be fragile), you may be cursing yourself during the pillar fabrication process. Not that it won't work, but you'll have to be a lot more careful. Mind you, this is just my opinion and is subject to critism.


----------



## clix`g35

I used a dremel to rout some small rings from 1/4 inch birch for Vifa Xt 25 to make sail panel mounts and they were so thin and fragile I broke them twice then scrapped that idea before I could even mount to aim, went for something else. 

These are a lot more rigid looking then the ones I had made, but you have to wonder what all that vibration heat and humidity will do to MDF? 

I ended up using 2 inch PVC pipe, sanded the inside a little bit to widen it and was a lot more rigid then the birch. 

Maybe you want to try and have these made from King Starboard instead?

BTW You build is epic and I plan on copying a lot of your ideas.


----------



## mnjordan

We could use .375" (or any other thickness) acrylic for the rings too. If I mount speakers in my doors this time around, I'll use .75" acrylic to build the baffles. No more worrying about protection from the weather with that stuff.


----------



## Neil_J

My favorite baffle material is UHMW plastic, but its expensive and probably doesn't stick to fiberglass resin. But it cuts like warm butter.


----------



## n_olympios

Neil_J said:


> I just can't believe this build is finally coming together


Don't say that! Every time I do, something happens and I either start from the top or change setup/cars. :laugh:


----------



## narvarr

Neil_J said:


> My favorite baffle material is UHMW plastic, but its expensive and probably doesn't stick to fiberglass resin. But it cuts like warm butter.


I used UHMW for my rings and didn't have any issues. I did, however, use CA glue around the edges where it touched the stretched material to bond the fabric to the plastic.

















Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## Deadpool_25

Just read through this entire build log in one sitting. Some truly amazing work being done here. I've been considering something in the general direction for "sexification" of my amp rack, but hadn't come close to figuring out how to get it done. This has definitely sparked a few ideas.


----------



## ecbmxer

Neil_J said:


> I'm hoping for about 15 degrees toe-in from on-axis relative to the driver's seat (tweeter up top, above the mid, like the last pictures). My mid->tweet crossover is passive, as I picked up a Hybrid L2X crossover network a while back. I think the crossover point is upwards of 5kHz, so I don't think either driver will beam in normal operation. But yea, reflections are what I'm worried about (specifically, one side reflecting differently than the other). That's what killed the staging in my old setup, because no amount of Eq or T/A could fix it. The right side was almost on-axis, while the left was almost completely off-axis (this is car-dependent, and it sucks in mine). This time around, I want them both pointed at my ear holes


This is almost exactly like my setup (mid/tweet in pillars, passive ~5kHz). Once you get up and running, we might be able to share some info. My mids are probably closer to your old setup though. I'd bet the driver side is 30 deg off axis. I actually plan to build a little lip when I re-wrap my pillars to try and control the real early reflections. I recall seeing a build in a benz on here that had a setup like that and supposedly it helped.

Edit: Just saw the new pics of your CNC'd rings. Nice! Easiest way to beef them up a bit might be to just make the pods with those baffles and then just add a bunch of duct seal underneath the edge where it meets the stretched fleece/cloth/whatever. Granted it won't give them any actual additional strength but should add mass nicely.


----------



## Neil_J

You guys. Oh my god you guys. I put the cardboard mockup speaker baffles on the dash with some shop microfiber towels behind them, and tried them on axis. I feel like I just scratched an itch that I've had for two years. It's truly amazing. Here's what I found:

Note: Shop towels not shown. The iphone pics were pretty crappy.









On-axis (or almost-on-axis) sounds positively amazing. The closest thing I've had to holographic imaging. It just sounds "right" in this car.











If I turn the speakers off-axis, everything starts to go all screwy. The left side is extremely attenuated. If I do try to boost it, then it's like I'm hearing the reflections more than the primary wave, and the imaging goes to crap.


So that's settled... I fiberglass them first thing Saturday, as close to on-axis as I can get them.. pointed right at the driver's ears.


----------



## ErinH

welcome to the dark side.


----------



## Neil_J

bikinpunk said:


> welcome to the dark side.


I feel that I just saw a unicorn for the first time after thinking they didn't exist. Now I have to figure out how to capture it before it pops back into non-existence.


----------



## captainobvious

Haha yeah it is a different experience for sure. You can get really good tone and a super easy center image. The problem with on axis in the dash is width is the weak point.

I hope it works out wonderfully for you


----------



## n_olympios

If you are willing to "lose" that small vent that's used for demisting the mirror corner on the side window, you might want to try and place the baffle horizontally, with the mids in the outer sides. That way you can get maximum width for your stage.


----------



## Neil_J

I've read the "where does width come from" thread literally three times, and other sources on the subject. I'm well aware that I'm going to lose some width by going with the pillars, but I'll make that sacrifice to get better imaging. I do have rear fill in my car, so I'm hoping to get a bit of width back that way. I'll try to get the mids as wide as I can, while still being on-axis or close to it.


----------



## Mic10is

Neil_J said:


> I've read the "where does width come from" thread literally three times, and other sources on the subject. I'm well aware that I'm going to lose some width by going with the pillars, but I'll make that sacrifice to get better imaging. I do have rear fill in my car, so I'm hoping to get a bit of width back that way. I'll try to get the mids as wide as I can, while still being on-axis or close to it.


If this is for competition then you could just be trading point, so the positive improvements would be negated on a score sheet.
So while imaging may improve, width, and listening position and possibly depth scores may be reduced.


----------



## Neil_J

Mic10is said:


> If this is for competition then you could just be trading point, so the positive improvements would be negated on a score sheet.
> So while imaging may improve, width, and listening position and possibly depth scores may be reduced.


I'm definitely not competing in MECA any more, nor IASCA. I won't go into it here as I already have in other threads. This car is solely for my personal enjoyment and noone else's


----------



## n_olympios

I've found that imaging is easier than width to fix via fine angling and tuning. 

In car audio, everything (or almost) is a compromise. You still have to take into account the fact that the MINI pillars are slim and quite close to the driver. Their relatively upright angle is good for what you need, but still if you decide to put the tweeter above the mid, the whole construction will be very big since you're using both drivers on the same baffle. 

What I'm proposing gives you a practical advantage as well, that of a less protruding build. Also, keeping the tweeters on the inside and further away from the side windows, prevents them from being easily localised due to nearfield reflections off the glass. 

I hope all this makes sense.


----------



## req

then do this - take the A pillar and chop a bitg hole in it where the baffle will sit. make it a long oval type hole with no sharp\ragged edges so the whole back end of the speaker comes as close to the metal behind the plastic. sink them in there as far as you can to keep as much width as possible. 

this is kind of a weird example as yours is on a single baffle. (thanks BigRed)









another example (thanks n_olympios);









kind of a bad example of looks, but a good example of pushing it into the pillar (thanks The real Subzero)









lots of DO's and DONT's in this thread
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ange-tweet-pillars.html?highlight=show+pillar

so before you glass them - cut, trim angle, adjust, re-wrap - until they LOOK pleasing to you - then listen to them! and dont forget, you can pull the fabric back in an undercut with a rib and some glue. nothing says you need to rely on the positive pull\wrap of the fabric.


----------



## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> I'm definitely not competing in MECA any more, nor IASCA. I won't go into it here as I already have in other threads. This car is solely for my personal enjoyment and noone else's


Nanny nanny poo poo...I'm enjoying it too (from a distance) !


----------



## papasin

bikinpunk said:


> welcome to the dark side.


Hehe, I too will never go back. Just something about its power cannot be underestimated .



captainobvious said:


> Nanny nanny poo poo...I'm enjoying it too (from a distance) !


+2. I won't say never, but it's been refreshing to take a break and continue to enjoy GTGs and talking to folks with the hobby.


----------



## Neil_J

papasin said:


> +2. I won't say never, but it's been refreshing to take a break and continue to enjoy GTGs and talking to folks with the hobby.


Yea, I'm always down for Diyma G2G's, every single one has been just plain awesome. I get waaay more out of those than I ever did at MECA and IASCA events. I think my problem is that I've got nothing to prove to anyone (and have always had a problem with authority, lol). I'm just a dude doing my own thing for my own personal enjoyment. Nothing more and nothing less.


----------



## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> Yea, I'm always down for Diyma G2G's, every single one has been just plain awesome. I get waaay more out of those than I ever did at MECA and IASCA events. I think my problem is that I've got nothing to prove to anyone (and have always had a problem with authority, lol). I'm just a dude doing my own thing for my own personal enjoyment. Nothing more and nothing less.


While competition (of any kind) can be exciting at times, you've got the right idea for sure. Do it because you love the hobby and the music (and the people!)


----------



## mnjordan

I too think I'm going to try to run as close to on axis with my tweeter/mid A-pillar build as possible. I'm building your Midbass rings tonight, alongside some baffles for my install. Your mid/tweet rings should be getting to you today.


----------



## Neil_J

mnjordan said:


> I too think I'm going to try to run as close to on axis with my tweeter/mid A-pillar build as possible. I'm building your Midbass rings tonight, alongside some baffles for my install. Your mid/tweet rings should be getting to you today.


Just got the rings in the mail... Excellent CNC machining work, sir. Hopefully I'll get them installed tomorrow.


----------



## req

pics of rings!!!


----------



## Neil_J

Here are some pictures of some holes instead...


----------



## JayinMI

What's that circle thing on the metal part of the pillar? 
Makes me think of those rubber pieces with the threaded insert in them...when you tighten down a bolt it flattens the rubber piece out and holds things in place. I have no idea what they're called. Maybe a good idea for mounting your pods? Or Rivnuts?

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

Picture dump from this morning... Still pacing around the room before settling on the current positioning and breaking out the resin. I decided last-minute to make them symmetrical, as I think it will look better visually (I was getting some dirty looks from the better half, she's not as thrilled as I am at this point). I think it's a decent compromise where they're at, there's no visibility issues to speak of. The left one isn't exactly on-axis, but it's a hell of a lot closer than where it was. They're kind of pointed down as they follow the raking of the windshield, but that keeps them from sticking out further and causing other problems.

As mentioned earlier, the rings were a little thin due to the MDF not being 1/4", so I decided to use the leftover popsicle sticks from the craft store. Unconventional? Yes; welcome to my build log 

And yea, that's the fleece I bought at the fabric store being used as a giant shop towel. Obviously it's too thick to be used as stretchy fabric for the pods. At least I got some use out of it.










































































































































































































Questions/comments/concerns, please voice now before I break out the resin


----------



## Neil_J

Oh.. And I definitely will need a yard or so of spandex to get a wrinkle-free surface. I'm off to the fabric store to see if they have any. Hopefully I won't get any funny looks :surprised:


----------



## Neil_J

I ended up moving them "out" a bit (i.e. they won't point down as much as they did in the earlier pics).


----------



## Neil_J

All they have is bright-green spandex at the fabric store... This should be fun.


----------



## eisnerracing

JayinMI said:


> What's that circle thing on the metal part of the pillar?
> Makes me think of those rubber pieces with the threaded insert in them...when you tighten down a bolt it flattens the rubber piece out and holds things in place. I have no idea what they're called. Maybe a good idea for mounting your pods? Or Rivnuts?
> 
> Jay


its more than likley the spot to screw in the oh **** handle for right hand drive cars.


----------



## bigbubba

Maybe I misread something but you seemed pretty stoked about the imaging with the speakers on axis in post #827. Looking at your latest positioning they seemed to be aimed down, almost like at the center console shifter. Did you also do a test listen with them aimed like that too? Are you concerned with them aimed that way bringing the stage way down?


----------



## ErinH

I know that every car is different, but I really, really suggest you reconsider the downward aiming. I was in the same boat as you and tilted mine down a few years back. I wound up re-doing the pillar after a month. If you have to bring them forward a bit to get them aimed back upward, so be it. I'd rather do that than aim them down.

As for imaging regarding width, consider this... if you were to set up a pair of speakers in the open space and move them only radially around you, where would you likely find the most width? Just because they're close and in front of you isn't a terrible thing. Width, IME, has MUCH more to do with the polar response itself than the physical location of the speaker. And in the above pictures, you're trading them out the opposite way I would. 

Again, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just offering my advice, man. If you don't want to take it, that's completely fine.


----------



## eisnerracing

I noticed that too . If you can't get the angle to aim them towards the center maybe use the windshield as a reflector and aim them towards the glass. I had an issue with customers car like that and turned out with a wide sound stage - very nice


----------



## Neil_J

bikinpunk said:


> I know that every car is different, but I really, really suggest you reconsider the downward aiming. I was in the same boat as you and tilted mine down a few years back. I wound up re-doing the pillar after a month. If you have to bring them forward a bit to get them aimed back upward, so be it. I'd rather do that than aim them down.
> 
> As for imaging regarding width, consider this... if you were to set up a pair of speakers in the open space and move them only radially around you, where would you likely find the most width? Just because they're close and in front of you isn't a terrible thing. Width, IME, has MUCH more to do with the polar response itself than the physical location of the speaker. And in the above pictures, you're trading them out the opposite way I would.
> 
> Again, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just offering my advice, man. If you don't want to take it, that's completely fine.


I re-aimed them, and they're not *that* downward at the moment. Probably 10 degrees. I've not had a chance to listen to them in their current position yet as I don't think the popsicle sticks will hold the weight of the speakers. I wrapped them in bright-green spandex, I think I screwed the resin mixture up. I have no idea how much hardener to put in, the recommended amount didn't even come close, or maybe it did, I've got no clue. It got all sorts of wrinkles once the resin hit it. It looks pretty sad right now. I'm waiting to see if it stays tacky or if it hardens up. I have no freaking clue what I'm doing.

If anyone can offer some fiberglass tech support, please PM me with a phone number. And I'm going to try not to get more resin on the touchscreen of my new phone. FML. I freaking hate fiberglass.


Edit: they may only be about 5 degrees pointed down. And keep in mind that the seats in my car sit *very* low. If you were to draw a line on the mids, they point at about shoulder-line height, center of the car. I'm not saying they're perfect, in fact I'm second-guessing myself if they'll stay at all... But they could be a lot worse. 

At least I'm not doing them like this guy:


----------



## TitanCCBT3

Check out this link with regards to fiberglass resin and hardener mix

Car Audio Fabrication: Resin Mix Ratio Chart


He also has a few posts on this site as well


----------



## Neil_J

I finally heard back from Greg at South East Customz (where I got the fiberglass supplies from), and it looks like I did mix the resin properly. It's just super humid here and was taking forever to dry, which was freaking me out. He also helped me realize that a fan isn't going to dry the resin, as it's an exothermic reaction. So taking the fan off of it helped.

The spandex was a bad idea (I'm going to try grill cloth next time), it wrinkled up as soon as the resin hit it. It's fixable, but the time spent sanding filler material just went up exponentially. I don't want to post pictures of the pods as-is, beause it's sure to draw a lot of criticism. I'll post them after a few coats of filler have been applied and sanded down. 

I wish I could say that it's smooth sailing from here.


----------



## charliekwin

Fiberglass is really cool stuff to work with, but like all things, it'll probably take a misfire or two to get the hang of it. A couple tips I learned along the way:

1. If you're going to err on the hardener/resin mix for this project, add a few extra drops of hardener. The pods are small and won't be subjected to much stress, so fragility won't be an issue, and if you your resin sets before you can use it all, just pitch it and try again, no big deal.

2. If you didn't use enough hardener, a heat gun will help.

3. Dremel tool is invaluable. Use it to sand the wrinkles down and/or just cut them out and fill in from the back.

4. Fiberglass resin doesn't form a chemical bond with plastic, so if everything really goes tits up, rip it off and have another go at it.


----------



## Octave

(thanks The real Subzero)









I would do something like this on your next try but I would have the mid at the pillar and the tweeter at the windshield. Basically the reverse of this set up. This will give you the ability to better aim them like we had talked about. Key would be getting the speakers and the mounting ring shoved as far into the corner as possible while keeping a good aim on them. When you make the pod do it with the dash mat in so it sits right on the dash mat. 

These little cars are underestimated I think. I'm about to start on a full purpose built SQ competition vehicle with the seats moved back and a full custom dash going to be built. The path lengths are the same in the Mini as they are in the comp vehicle with the seats moved back in the Mini. Its kind of freaky and can't wait to finish the Mini I'm working on because I think the imaging and sound stage is going to be ridiculous. 

Russ,


----------



## req

i would just make sure they are not aimed downward.

and neil - spandex is great - you just have to stretch it SUPER tight.


----------



## JayinMI

Usually, when I use a material like spandex, grill cloth, t-shirt, etc...I try to put on the lightest coat of resin possible. I let that set. Then you can do whatever you want without having to worry about it sagging. In some cases, I've done a light coat that didn't cover everything, so I went back with a second light coat to hit the spots that didn't get covered the first time. And yes, you have to stretch it as tight as <insert inappropiate innuendo here.> lol

Jay


----------



## JayinMI

Neil_J said:


> I finally heard back from Greg at South East Customz (where I got the fiberglass supplies from), and it looks like I did mix the resin properly. It's just super humid here and was taking forever to dry, which was freaking me out. He also helped me realize that a fan isn't going to dry the resin, as it's an exothermic reaction. So taking the fan off of it helped.
> 
> The spandex was a bad idea (I'm going to try grill cloth next time), it wrinkled up as soon as the resin hit it. It's fixable, but the time spent sanding filler material just went up exponentially. I don't want to post pictures of the pods as-is, beause it's sure to draw a lot of criticism. I'll post them after a few coats of filler have been applied and sanded down.
> 
> I wish I could say that it's smooth sailing from here.


Something else that accelerates the process of resin curing is sunlight. It you are in a position to pull the piece out of the car, or park the car IN direct sunlight, that will help it dry faster. Alas, you live in FL, home of humidity and 4pm rain showers. lol

Jay


----------



## clix`g35

I am down here in Miami and use US Composite whenever I glass anything. On their info page, it states you can adjust up to 50% more or less depending on weather. Usually I need to adjust up 25% in the winter weeks we have 50% also try surface wax for your last coat it helps get a good hard untacky surface easier for sanding and fatser to finish but requires more MKEP.


----------



## Neil_J

req said:


> i would just make sure they are not aimed downward.


Now you guys tell me... 

So the resin dried last night, no issues to speak of, other than the aforementioned sagging spandex. I got the speakers installed and the pillars mounted in the car. Here are the measurements from my protractor app on my phone.

Left: 6.5 degrees pointed down. About 10 degrees off-axis with the driver's ears.
Right: 6.5 degrees pointed down. Pretty much on-axis with the driver's ears 

So I'm sitting in my car listening to them now, and they're really not *that* bad. But you guys have me worried now, and I've got the itch to redo them (thanks, really!!). It's not too late, I can still rip the cloth off and salvage the rings. I think it's a lot of work either way. Sigh.


----------



## Neil_J

So, uhh.. Don't laugh, ok??


----------



## ErinH

Neil_J said:


> Now you guys tell me...


That's exactly what my comment was about yesterday. Lol.


----------



## ErinH

Neil_J said:


> So, uhh.. Don't laugh, ok??


Your steering wheel is going to have he best seat in the house with that aiming. 

Just giving you a hard time dude. 

In all seriousness, I would re aim them pronto. They do look like they're aimed toward your waist from the pictures you've supplied. Unless those pictures are severely distorted. 

The work you did doesn't look bad. I think you could sand some spots down and get it to look good with time and patience. But if it were me, I'd punt and shoot for getting them more at head level. 

A random bit of info that you are welcome to ignore. As it is your tweeter is forward of your mid in regards to voice coil positioning. If you decide to te do them you may want to consider trying to sink the tweeter in a bit so it's more acoustically in line with the mid. How much does it matter? Probably not a whole lot with the DSP you have (and less worrisome in the grand scheme of things). But if you have the chance to get the acoustic centers lined up off the bat, that's just one more thing in your favor.


----------



## Neil_J

bikinpunk said:


> That's exactly what my comment was about yesterday. Lol.


Both of you guys told me _after_ I started glueing Popsicle sticks  Your posts were seriously the first time I've ever heard that aiming that way is apparently an absolute no-no. I'd love to know more of this tribal knowledge that you guys are holding out on


----------



## charliekwin

Neil_J said:


> So I'm sitting in my car listening to them now, and they're really not *that* bad. But you guys have me worried now, and I've got the itch to redo them (thanks, really!!). It's not too late, I can still rip the cloth off and salvage the rings. I think it's a lot of work either way. Sigh.


Well, if you're anything like me, you may as well just get it out of the way and re-do it now. Otherwise, it'll gnaw at you every time you're in the car until some Thursday 4 months from now you'll get a hair up your ass and rip it all out. Save yourself the trouble 

As far as the spandex goes, like the others said: just make sure you're pulling it as tight as you can. Will take care of the wrinkles.


----------



## Neil_J

So if I were to start over, where should I aim them? Where would you aim them? On-axis with driver? At the interior dome light? Somewhere else? Symmetrical or no?


----------



## mnjordan

Friday night, I built myself some rings similar to the ones I made for you, mainly for position testing. I used .05" MDF (measured to 0.515" actually), and I think that might help with support for your mids. You want me to throw some 0.5" versions of yours in the box with your midbass rings?

My Focal 3" mid hasn't made it to me yet, but here they are:


----------



## Neil_J

mnjordan said:


> Friday night, I built myself some rings similar to the ones I made for you, mainly for position testing. I used .05" MDF (measured to 0.515" actually), and I think that might help with support for your mids. You want me to throw some 0.5" versions of yours in the box with your midbass rings?
> 
> My Focal 3" mid hasn't made it to me yet, but here they are:


Nice.

Apparently I'm ripping my pillars apart and starting over, due to peer pressure  I'm going to salvage the rings you macr me and likely cut the tweeter part off, and get some 1/4" birch to make those as separate pieces. Feel free to make another set if you're up to it, I might not be able to salvage these. Did you get the Paypal payment I sent you?


----------



## narvarr

Neil_J said:


> Nice.
> 
> Apparently I'm ripping my pillars apart and starting over, due to peer pressure  I'm going to salvage the rings you macr me and likely cut the tweeter part off, and get some 1/4" birch to make those as separate pieces. Feel free to make another set if you're up to it, I might not be able to salvage these. Did you get the Paypal payment I sent you?


Neil, if you can save your rings, try making a relief cut between the mid and tweet in the back and see if you can bend the mid section up. If you like that angle, keep it and just try to manipulate the mid angle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


----------



## Neil_J

That didn't last long....


----------



## mnjordan

Yeah, I got your PP. Thanks! 

How about some separate rings? One for mid, one for tweet? Thats what I'll end up with in my build. Should make it much easier for positioning, at least with my sails/pillars/dash.


----------



## Neil_J

That works for me, if it doesn't put you out. I was a me to salvage the rings no problem, I'm just wondering if I can actually reuse them.


----------



## porscheman

you also missed the drill a **** load of holes in your pillar stage. that's why they came off so easy. take a 1/8" or so bit and perf the pillar where you are planning on glassing to. it will make a huge improvement on adherence


----------



## JayinMI

I always just assumed pointing things down would be a bad idea...BUT then I bought my Rio. The factory tweeters are actually pointed in and down, and the system actually stages reasonably well, even better than some cars I've had in the past with "better" speaker aiming. 

I'd say trust your ears. Or at least trust your ears, and combine that with the info you now have. lol

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

porscheman said:


> you also missed the drill a **** load of holes in your pillar stage. that's why they came off so easy. take a 1/8" or so bit and perf the pillar where you are planning on glassing to. it will make a huge improvement on adherence


Yea, got it. I didn't sand, either. Kind of glad I dropped the ball on that, actually.


----------



## strakele

Yeah, now you get to re-do it with the knowledge and experience you gained working with the materials the first time around, without having to spend hours un-doing what you did. Not a bad thing.

Also nothing wrong with listening to them angled slightly down like that and see what you find. For a while I was caught up in trying to get the best aiming possible from a theoretical standpoint. Then I heard a bunch of great cars with speakers in locations that I would have thought would sound horrible. So who knows. Car audio is weird.


----------



## JayinMI

strakele said:


> Yeah, now you get to re-do it with the knowledge and experience you gained working with the materials the first time around, without having to spend hours un-doing what you did. Not a bad thing.
> 
> Also nothing wrong with listening to them angled slightly down like that and see what you find. For a while I was caught up in trying to get the best aiming possible from a theoretical standpoint. Then I heard a bunch of great cars with speakers in locations that I would have thought would sound horrible. So who knows. Car audio is weird.


In theory lots of things shouldn't work, car audio-wise, but do...you have 2 options:
Change things, or
Change theories. lol

Jay


----------



## ErinH

in a car, all bets are off. but when you've had the chance to listen to various setups, you start to learn. then you factor in what you know about speaker directivity and things make more sense.

truth is, critical listening isn't a 5 minute process. and not all speakers exhibit the same response. you really shouldn't fully decide on a design based on a few minutes' worth of listening. There are large companies that build home audio speakers to grab the listener on the showroom floor. Then a month down the line the listener has grown tired. When you see the FR of this stuff, it makes sense. Zaph had some words about this regarding individual drivers. There's some really good information on marketing that is has been made available in IEEE papers that really make you realize just how well engineers understand this and use psychoacoustics to sell, sell, sell. That's why more legit reviewers/magazines provide in-room data. So at least the people reading those reviews can have an understanding of why the reviewer said what he did. 

All that said, my point is mainly to not toss the baby out with the bathwater. But don't also make the assumption that because it sounds good for 10 minutes, it's the end-all, be-all solution for your (or any) car. My advice is given on my experience in a few different cars mixed with some understanding of the science behind it. I don't expect all things to flesh out the same way but it's at least a starting point for helping others. At the end of the day, you're your own guinea pig.


----------



## Neil_J

So here's where I'm at.

I listened to the "Mark I" pillars for several hours before I destroyed them. It was hard to judge because I didn't have time to get a decent tune (I lost my last tune when I took the H800 out, thanks Alpine for not using non-volatile memory). They were obviously better than the stock door pods, but that's not saying much. The stage was high enough for my liking. Width was as you'd expect for a pillar install. All in all, like I said earlier, they weren't *that* bad. I mainly ripped them out due to comments above, and that itching feeling that I could do better.

So I marathoned through 39 pages of the A-pillar show-off thread, the on-axis vs off-axis thread, a re-read of bikinpunk's new build thread, and a smattering of other posts concerning how to aim my pillar speakers. Maybe I'm over-complicating it. I do that from time to time. I think strakele and others had it right when saying that car audio is weird, and breaking the rules is ok from time to time... and that there's not a single "right" way to do it. 

But other than that, I really don't agree with a lot of the other stuff I've read so far. 

I see a lot of people aiming the drivers right at each other. I've tried it, and I hate it. Really, really hate it. 

I hear to aim them at the dome light, but in my last setup, my tweeter pods were like that, and I had ongoing problems. I think this rule applies to mid-size and large cars, but breaks down on small cars where path lengths and extreme angles are common.

There are lot of people who'd mount them in spots that I won't. I can't block visibility or my side window defrost vents. That knocks out quite a few locations.

Supposedly aiming them dead-nuts on axis is bad, especially the tweeter, because it will be ungodly bright. What I don't get, is why can't I just tune that out, ie turn the tweeter down? I'm sure that logic is incorrect, but I've not seen a lot of people go that route, so I'm not even sure the evidence is there either way. I know it sounded good in my car when I was aiming them around. Oh.. I think I remember reading a Car Audio & Electronics when I was a kid about a BMW that sounded amazing with on-axis drivers. Earl Zausmer I think.

And apparently aiming them down is bad... Ok, duly noted  


So for "Mark II" of the pillars, I separated the baffle into midrange and tweet rings, and listened to my gut and mounted them dead-nuts on axis. I'm sure a few people reading this now or seeing the pictures later will wince or twitch and tell me I'm still doing it wrong. At this point I don't really care, this isn't an install-log-by-committee, and noone's offered to drive down to FL and listen to them and tell me how they sound. Here's the thing. I think "width" is over-rated, as is depth. I'm an oddball, but I really don't care about those things. I want imaging, that's what my car didn't have before I started the pillars. I had width for days, and to be completely honest, I know I can [artificially] get back width with my stereo-to-surround upmixing and impulse convolution algorithms. So maybe I'm crazy, but at the moment, it all makes sense in my head, and that's what I'm going to do. After rereading, yea I'm cranky, but I've been working for like 18 hours straight, so my apologies 

So on-axis it is. I made an alignment tool out of birch ply and dowel rod and spent a while getting it right on both sides. The tweets stick out a bit in front of the mids (not ideal as bikinpunk mentioned, but not the end of the world). I chose grill cloth this time, and my second experience with the fiberglass resin was a lot better. Grill cloth is definitely the way to go. I'll never use spandex again.

No pics yet, too dark outside and I'm too tired. I'll do the same listening test this week hopefully, before breaking out the body filler. 

God help me.


----------



## ErinH

Re: tweeters being bright on axis. 
I've read a lot of people saying this. Most of the time either the driver used is at fault or there's a different reflection creating an issue there than before. Personally, I've not had a single tweeter sound bright in the past 3 years or so of installing on-axis (or mostly on axis). And I've been through a whole lot of speakers over the years. Lol. 

There are a lot of people in car audio land with a lot of experience willing to share it. There's also a lot of people that have been here for years with no real experience and instead are regurgitating something they read. Therefore, I take a lot of subjective evaluations with a grain of salt unless a) I know and trust the source and/or b) they provide some sort of objective analysis to back it up either through in car measurements or citing mfg or 3rd party measurements. 

There are also a lot of unconventional setups that buck theory. But I will say that the few basics of audio (sound power being the single most important one) always provide better results than some willy nilly install. Compromise is inherent in car audio. I think that's what so many people enjoy about it. Sometimes weird stuff works good enough and that trumps perfection based on theory. There's a lot to be said for psychoacoustics as well. A nice looking install may make you feel better about the system and make you happier. In this case, having huge speakers in the way might drive you nuts so much that you have less enjoyment even if it does perform better (assuming you judged your own car blindfolded in this case ).


----------



## quality_sound

I'll agree with Erin. I LOVE tweeters on axis. Even the *gasp* MB Quart QTD25 that everyone and their grandma "hates".


----------



## GLN305

I had the best luck in my Mini Cooper with this tweeter positioning. Running the HAT L6SE's in the stock location in the bottom of the door, L3SE's in the stock mid location the stage was very wide, imaging was solid and they sounded great there. This is without any upholstery.


----------



## req

i agree with you neil. i would do as on-axis as you can.

IMO - reflections are what make things horrible. specifically the reflection from the passenger side speakers off the driver side window glass. not much you can do about that but aim the speaker aft a few inches and hope your headrest gets most of it. *sigh*

i just would avoid pointing them downward. that reflection off the dash is going to be the worst 

it looks like you have a great plan. and next time i am in flordia (we drive there for work often, and my sister lives there) ill do my best to see if you are busy


----------



## mnjordan

We need a DIYMA GTG, Southeast Chapter. I want to hear all these amazing installs.


----------



## TitanCCBT3

Second that idea for a southeast GTG


----------



## Neil_J

I'm 100% committed to a southeast G2G. Just give me some time to get my A-pillars situated


----------



## Neil_J

So why don't more people do their pillars on-axis? Complexity? Visibility issues? Stigma and misconceptions? It really seems like I'm in the minority here.


----------



## ErinH

I'm having one in North Alabama November 9th. As a point of reference, it takes me 9.5 hours to drive to Disney World even with a family that insists we stop to break more than I'd like. So I may be closer than you think.


----------



## Neil_J

bikinpunk said:


> I'm having one in North Alabama November 9th. As a point of reference, it takes me 9.5 hours to drive to Disney World even with a family that insists we stop to break more than I'd like. So I may be closer than you think.


I can totally make November 9 as long as work and family don't get in the way.


----------



## mnjordan

Neil_J said:


> I can totally make November 9 as work and family don't get in the way.


Same here.


----------



## req

sigh. too far for me :'(

im either too far north, too far east, or too far south. im the furthest away from everything sound quality related!

i would say most people want them out of the way visually and they have misconceptions about tweeter brightness or something.

personally - i like to hide the speakers as best i can - because people have misconceptions about the sound based on visiual cues. all about psychoacoustics!


----------



## n_olympios

Neil_J said:


> Both of you guys told me _after_ I started glueing Popsicle sticks  Your posts were seriously the first time I've ever heard that aiming that way is apparently an absolute no-no. I'd love to know more of this tribal knowledge that you guys are holding out on


It must have been mentioned at least twice in my install thread IIRC, and many times in the A-pillars thread. 

As you know, this thread is massive. Very large amount of stuff going on and I'm sure I'm not the only one that struggles to keep up, what with my limited time. 

I'm only saying this because although I'm not the savviest of all when it comes to angling etc, I'd sure have given my advice on it before you tried it out like that, had I seen that mentioned. 



Neil_J said:


> So why don't more people do their pillars on-axis? Complexity? Visibility issues? Stigma and misconceptions? It really seems like I'm in the minority here.


In the last car (as documented here) I did mine at a slight off-axis angle, both sides directly pointed at the center of the car, between the passengers. This seemed to work better for the space behind the drivers and the conformity to my OCD for symmetry lol. Now that I've sold that car and have started working on my other one again, the drivers will be full on-axis to the driver, regardless of everything else (visibility blockage aside). On-axis works best, especially when PLD is an issue (as in your car and my current one - the Leon was a bit more forgiving in that area). There's a volume difference, but you can tune that out fairly easily. 

Actually let me rephrase that: the same on/off-axis angle in both sides (in relation to the listener, not the car) works best. I'm adding this because one might want to use drivers that are engineered for slight off-axis installation.


----------



## Neil_J

n_olympios said:


> It must have been mentioned at least twice in my install thread IIRC, and many times in the A-pillars thread.
> 
> As you know, this thread is massive. Very large amount of stuff going on and I'm sure I'm not the only one that struggles to keep up, what with my limited time.
> 
> I'm only saying this because although I'm not the savviest of all when it comes to angling etc, I'd sure have given my advice on it before you tried it out like that, had I seen that mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> In the last car (as documented here) I did mine at a slight off-axis angle, both sides directly pointed at the center of the car, between the passengers. This seemed to work better for the space behind the drivers and the conformity to my OCD for symmetry lol. Now that I've sold that car and have started working on my other one again, the drivers will be full on-axis to the driver, regardless of everything else (visibility blockage aside). On-axis works best, especially when PLD is an issue (as in your car and my current one - the Leon was a bit more forgiving in that area). There's a volume difference, but you can tune that out fairly easily.
> 
> Actually let me rephrase that: the same on/off-axis angle in both sides (in relation to the listener, not the car) works best. I'm adding this because one might want to use drivers that are engineered for slight off-axis installation.


I read all 39 pages of the A-pillar thread and didn't see anything about aiming down (pro or con). If it was there, it was more of a blip than a drum beat. I'm not complaining, just pointing out that its a lot harder for us newbies to come here and get right to the useful bits of info without wasting valuable time or getting information overload. That's why I keep shamelessly leaning on the Diyma veterans here  I get a much higher chance of getting a relevant answer that way. I really do appreciate all the help given so far from everyone, I don't know how much time you guys have saved me.


----------



## Neil_J

n_olympios said:


> In the last car (as documented here) I did mine at a slight off-axis angle, both sides directly pointed at the center of the car, between the passengers. This seemed to work better for the space behind the drivers and the conformity to my OCD for symmetry lol. Now that I've sold that car and have started working on my other one again, the drivers will be full on-axis to the driver, regardless of everything else (visibility blockage aside). On-axis works best, especially when PLD is an issue (as in your car and my current one - the Leon was a bit more forgiving in that area). There's a volume difference, but you can tune that out fairly easily.
> 
> Actually let me rephrase that: the same on/off-axis angle in both sides (in relation to the listener, not the car) works best. I'm adding this because one might want to use drivers that are engineered for slight off-axis installation.


After re-reading your post, that is a goldmine of information there. Thank you for posting it here.


----------



## mnjordan

n_olympios said:


> It must have been mentioned at least twice in my install thread IIRC, and many times in the A-pillars thread.
> 
> As you know, this thread is massive. Very large amount of stuff going on and I'm sure I'm not the only one that struggles to keep up, what with my limited time.
> 
> I'm only saying this because although I'm not the savviest of all when it comes to angling etc, I'd sure have given my advice on it before you tried it out like that, had I seen that mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> In the last car (as documented here) I did mine at a slight off-axis angle, both sides directly pointed at the center of the car, between the passengers. This seemed to work better for the space behind the drivers and the conformity to my OCD for symmetry lol. Now that I've sold that car and have started working on my other one again, the drivers will be full on-axis to the driver, regardless of everything else (visibility blockage aside). On-axis works best, especially when PLD is an issue (as in your car and my current one - the Leon was a bit more forgiving in that area). There's a volume difference, but you can tune that out fairly easily.
> 
> Actually let me rephrase that: the same on/off-axis angle in both sides (in relation to the listener, not the car) works best. I'm adding this because one might want to use drivers that are engineered for slight off-axis installation.


So if there are compromises that must be made in terms of axis ( I want to be as on-axis as possible), make sure that they are mirrored on both sides of the vehicle? Would maybe hanging something from the ceiling, and using the laser pointer method be best to get dead-on symmetry?


----------



## Neil_J

mnjordan said:


> So if there are compromises that must be made in terms of axis ( I want to be as on-axis as possible), make sure that they are mirrored on both sides of the vehicle? Would maybe hanging something from the ceiling, and using the laser pointer method be best to get dead-on symmetry?


I think he's saying to make them on axis to the driver's ears, not the center of the car... And he's also saying, if you want them toed in a bit, do them by an equal amount relative to the drivers ears, not symmetrical with the car. All of that applies of you're looking for a one seat SQ car.

And the dowel rod trick worked great for me. No need to get laser pointers out, unless there are sharks involved.


----------



## n_olympios

mnjordan said:


> So if there are compromises that must be made in terms of axis ( I want to be as on-axis as possible), make sure that they are mirrored on both sides of the vehicle? Would maybe hanging something from the ceiling, and using the laser pointer method be best to get dead-on symmetry?


Heh. I wouldn't take it to that extent, because let's face it: the left side is never going to sound 100% the same as the right side, and that's because we don't sit in the middle. Heck, even home setups suffer from L-R differences and there it's much easier to get full symmetry. 

I've used laser pointers before, but ended up aiming using my ears. They tend to work better when you want to focus on the system's sound instead of the visionary experience. 




Neil_J said:


> I think he's saying to make them on axis to the driver's ears, not the center of the car... And he's also saying, if you want them toed in a bit, do them by an equal amount relative to the drivers ears, not symmetrical with the car. All of that applies of you're looking for a one seat SQ car.


Exactly. If you stay within a few degrees off from full on-axis, then normally the nearfield reflections won't be such an issue. Not to such a different extent L to R that is, which would advocate different approaches for each side. 

Mind you, those few degrees could be on the vertical plane as well, not just the horizontal one. Hint hint.


----------



## Neil_J

Listening impressions from the Mark II pillars:

Mother of god. Holy crap. All is right in the world. It's so silky smooth and effortless, I'm trembling. Holigraphic imaging for days, it's magical. No idea how I did it. But holy hell. I'm riding a ****ing unicorn.


----------



## PureDynamics

Any pics on how you have it setup now for testing?


----------



## astrochex

Congrats Neil!


----------



## charliekwin

Neil_J said:


> Listening impressions from the Mark II pillars:
> 
> Mother of god. Holy crap. All is right in the world. It's so silky smooth and effortless, I'm trembling. Holigraphic imaging for days, it's magical. No idea how I did it. But holy hell. I'm riding a ****ing unicorn.


Man, just think how good it's gonna sound when you re-do them for the _third_ time! 

I kid, I kid. Congrats man! But yeah, pics!


----------



## bbfoto

Neil_J said:


> Listening impressions from the Mark II pillars:
> 
> Mother of god. Holy crap. All is right in the world. It's so silky smooth and effortless, I'm trembling. Holigraphic imaging for days, it's magical. No idea how I did it. But holy hell. I'm riding a ****ing unicorn.


LOL. Nice! Now we gotta have pics!...of you riding the unicorn, I mean, LOL! 

Congrats Neil. It's awesome when things finally come together like this.


----------



## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> LOL. Nice! Now we gotta have pics!...of you riding the unicorn, I mean, LOL!











My unicorn's name is Starlight Buttercup and she can sing Spanish Harlem like nobody's business


----------



## BowDown

:laugh: Nice Neil!

Welcome to the fold.. it's great to have revelations like that.. but once the honeymoon period wears off you start nitpicking again . But very cool on taking it up a notch!


----------



## Neil_J

I'm done nitpicking for a while. I want a year or two of being able to critically listen to my music collection. I've barely been able to do that for the last two years


----------



## req

pics or it didnt happen


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Wow Neil, what a fun thread! I love all the custom work you have!

In my build, I too spent a lot of time thinking about aiming the front speakers. It is similar to n_olympios' idea of aiming both speakers to be symmetrically off-axis to the listener, however I took it one step further to also have them be symmetrical with respect to the car for aesthetics. Following the idea below, I was able to calculate a symmetric layout that looked very pleasing, while also having a 14 degree off-axis response from both the left and right channels. Below is a quote from my build log, I hope it is useful.




Jazzi said:


> I want to aim the L3SE wideband drivers as on-axis as possible to my listening position in the driver's seat (hopefully to get excellent high frequency response), but also geometrically symmetrical relative to the car too (for aesthetics and hopefully to get a similar frequency response from the passenger seat).
> 
> Some measurements with the tape measure and a little trigonometry later ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this will help if you want to do something similar.
> 
> 1) measure the three distances L, R, and W
> 2) plug them into the formula I derived and grind it out
> 3) draw an imaginary line from the midpoint of the two drivers to your head at the listening position. This will be the angle to the aiming position relative to the floor (lower left corner of drawing).
> 4) measure distance (A) from the midpoint of the two drivers, at an angle relative to the floor from step 3, to a point in space in the center of the interior. This is where you aim the speakers.


----------



## Neil_J

Cell phone pics will have to suffice, otherwise ill late for work.. Stand by.


----------



## Justin Zazzi

Oh wait, nevermind, you're riding a unicorn ....


----------



## Neil_J




----------



## JayinMI

Neil_J said:


> My unicorn's name is Starlight Buttercup and she can sing Spanish Harlem like nobody's business


Nice tophat, Neil. But you look remarkably like a cat.
This picture makes me think of dubstep. lol


Jay


----------



## n_olympios

No wonder it sounds much better. 

I love having the drivers on the same vertical plane, but unfortunately on most pillars that's quite difficult to achieve, as you've found out by now. Still, that's nothing a bit of tweeter attenuating can't fix, and when the tweeters are above or below the mids, horizontal dispersion of the mids (necessary for preventing driver localization) isn't affected that much.

Don't forget that the L3SE needs as much space behind it as you can spare. The better its rear breathes, the better it sounds. This means you might want to make the pods a bit wider in the rear where they connect to the pillar, perhaps even venting the rear to the bottom side of the pillar and into the dash, if that's at all possible.

Let me add a couple of images to make what I'm suggesting a bit clearer; these are my final pillars in the making (original L4's shown here):










Their rear side was closed. 










I then cut out the bottom part (highlighted in light blue) so it breathes down and into the dash (and reinforced the whole construction with even more FG).



















Obviously the pillars in the Leon were different to the MINI's, in that there's a triangular window and they're massively bigger, but the same principle applies.


----------



## Neil_J

Yea, I vent the L3SE's down into the dash cavity. Kind of a thin channel of air, but I guess it works. They're LOT less stuffy and muddy sounding than they were in the stock door pods (which were barely bigger than the magnet and basket). I'm picking out little nuances in my songs already that I didn't hear up until now. The drive to work this morning was pretty amazing. So this is what it's like to have an SQ system.


----------



## mrstangerbanger

why on axis ? I always though Hybrid loved 30degrees off axis ?? Amazing job on the install for sure man !!! .. Did you try mids in kick panels and tweeters in sails ?? I had smaller car and that sounded way better then speakers in Apillars because car was so small and speakers were so close to me..


----------



## Neil_J

mrstangerbanger said:


> why on axis ? I always though Hybrid loved 30degrees off axis ?? Amazing job on the install for sure man !!! .. Did you try mids in kick panels and tweeters in sails ?? I had smaller car and that sounded way better then speakers in Apillars because car was so small and speakers were so close to me..


Here's my take on that, for what it's worth. Hybrid speakers DO sound great off-axis. Better than some other manufacturers. And a lot of people hear that and mount them off-axis on purpose. However, they also sound great on-axis. As of today, I think it really depends on what you're going for. I may be a bit weird, I like them on-axis, they sound better that way to me. Unsure if I'd win competitions this way or not, but I could care less right now, they're not paying for my system, I am 


Oh, and I've got no room in the kicks, I would have legs and feet blocking the drivers. Again I'm a bit weird in that I've not really liked any of the cars I've listened to that had mods/tweets in the kicks. They do certain things well, but lack in other areas. Now midbasses in the kicks, that's another story.


----------



## n_olympios

Most drivers will sound best on-axis, and some of them will sound better than others when off-axis (up to a certain angle). Having said that, many full range (see: smaller) cone drivers sound best between 5 and 25 degrees off axis, as the frequency response will be flatter*. This is what I had aimed for in the Leon. Still, due to the different L-R angling to the listener's ears, I had to use different eqing on L and R to get them to sound the same. This means at least 4X the man-hours compared to a normal EQ session.

Was it worth it in the end? Yes. Would I do it again? Probably, but not if I could avoid it. For a one-seat car, there's no point in choosing the same angling for L and R anyway, apart from looks. 

*this obviously applies differently to each driver/car/system/listener.


----------



## req

this is all awesome to read neil.

im so glad this is giving you a smile when you get in the car


----------



## Neil_J

So just to make sure that the tweeters weren't "ungodly bright" when aimed on axis, pulled a song from my collection that I felt to be the most harshest song imaginable: Asking Alexendria, "To the stage (Bare Remix)". It's harsh, but it still sounds better than what it did when they were off axis. I even heard little nuances in it that I've never heard before. If you concentrate and listen closely at 1:30, you'll hear it: a wookie yell.


----------



## quietfly

did some one say wookie?

I Did It All For The Wookie - Limp Bizkit "Nookie" Parody Song Damnation - YouTube


----------



## bigbubba

Neil_J said:


>


 Don't know what the tweeter mounting depth is but is there any way the tweeter can be moved straight back to be more in line, depth wise, to the mid?


----------



## Neil_J

bigbubba said:


> Don't know what the tweeter mounting depth is but is there any way the tweeter can be moved straight back to be more in line, depth wise, to the mid?


Unfortunately no. Even as-is, it is very close to rubbing on the sheet metal. I didn't want to cut into the structural part like some have done. I think it works, it doesn't look as bad in person (and hopefully even better after I rip the duct tape off and start adding body filler and paint).


----------



## bertholomey

Neil_J said:


> So just to make sure that the tweeters weren't "ungodly bright" when aimed on axis, pulled a song from my collection that I felt to be the most harshest song imaginable: Asking Alexendria, "To the stage (Bare Remix)". It's harsh, but it still sounds better than what it did when they were off axis. I even heard little nuances in it that I've never heard before. If you concentrate and listen closely at 1:30, you'll hear it: a wookie yell.


This sure is some Sci-Fi stuff.......we have Vikings riding Unicorns.......yelling Wookies all in the same build thread. Win! 

Very cool when you start hearing those nuances and sometimes 'easter eggs' in the music because your system has gotten more transparent (reminds me of that post by Jazzi in Jon's thread). Gets even more fun when you are back to listening to the music instead of the equipment. It sounds like that is exactly where you are heading in theory (and force of will) and in practice. Continued good luck!


----------



## doitor

Awesome build.
Im sure you already know, but the L3 SE´s on axis, like in your install can play pretty high. 
You wouldnt miss much if you took the tweeters out.
The best HAT combo I ever had in the CX-7 (and I tested almost every posible combination) was using the prototype L8 SE´s in the kick panels and the L3 SE´s on axis up in the dash with no tweeters.

J.


----------



## quietfly

IMO this hobby is the most fun when it is about music and not about score cards....


----------



## Neil_J

doitor said:


> Awesome build.
> Im sure you already know, but the L3 SE´s on axis, like in your install can play pretty high.
> You wouldnt miss much if you took the tweeters out.


Yea, but they'll beam while playing that high. See the "Power response 101" thread and Bikinpunk's new build thread. Good power response is something I'm trying not to overlook in this build.


----------



## ecbmxer

Looking good man! Once you glass them up I'd try to make as smooth a transition between the mid and tweet so you don't have a sharp edge or any of the tweeter pod overlapping above the mid.


----------



## mrstangerbanger

Neil_J said:


> Here's my take on that, for what it's worth. Hybrid speakers DO sound great off-axis. Better than some other manufacturers. And a lot of people hear that and mount them off-axis on purpose. However, they also sound great on-axis. As of today, I think it really depends on what you're going for. I may be a bit weird, I like them on-axis, they sound better that way to me. Unsure if I'd win competitions this way or not, but I could care less right now, they're not paying for my system, I am
> 
> 
> Oh, and I've got no room in the kicks, I would have legs and feet blocking the drivers. Again I'm a bit weird in that I've not really liked any of the cars I've listened to that had mods/tweets in the kicks. They do certain things well, but lack in other areas. Now midbasses in the kicks, that's another story.


I totally agree my hybrid mids and tweets are off axis in a pillars and only because i played with them for days trying to find the best imaging in my new car and then decided to just stick with them but in my old I had the mids in kicks and tweeters in sail panels and that sounded the best in that car but your car is hard because its so small . I figured out big time that the bigger and wider the car or truck/van the better. Have you got to listen to the car how does it sound ? Also what do you think about the xd amps? 

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Neil_J

Got my 3D printed cosmetic trim rings in today. I attempted to wrap them with Avery chrome vinyl wrap. The finished product is slightly convincing at a distance, so I'm gonna call it good. I may do them over one day and use some filler and sand them smooth, but they'll work just fine for now.








































































I need to repaint the grill, I'm not happy with it as-is.

P.S. sorry about the crappy iPhone pics...


----------



## mrstangerbanger

Time to get an android phone instead .. Then root it and overclock it .. Much better . I built custom ROMs for note 2 on xda

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Neil_J

mrstangerbanger said:


> I figured out big time that the bigger and wider the car or truck/van the better.


This is very true, although a lot of other people disagree with us. Small cars suck, plain and simple. My trunk/hatch area is literally non-existant now. The same amp rack and sub box in a large SUV or large sedan would still have room left over for a dead body or two... Bigger cars have better path lengths, more room for kick panels, the ability to use bigger sub boxes, and obviously reflect less sound energy around the cabin.



> Also what do you think about the xd amps?


The JL XD amps are great, they're cheaper and smaller than the HD amps, and sound almost as good. I think they're an excellent compromise and if I had to do it all over again, I'd still use them. I did lose a sub channel on my #3 amp, but I had two extra channels so I bridged it and powered the sub with that. I voided the warranty on all four amps, so JL ain't gonna fix it for me for free.


----------



## Neil_J

mrstangerbanger said:


> Time to get an android phone instead .. Then root it and overclock it .. Much better . I built custom ROMs for note 2 on xda


I meant sorry for not pulling out my digital SLR and uploading the pics that way. I won't debate smartphones in this thread, that's off-topic.


----------



## Offroader5

Hmm, would definitely benefit from a bit of sanding. Almost looks like a hammered tin finish. I didn't realize that the 3D prints came out that rough.


----------



## Neil_J

Offroader5 said:


> Hmm, would definitely benefit from a bit of sanding. Almost looks like a hammered tin finish. I didn't realize that the 3D prints came out that rough.


Me too. I'll likely redo them, I really didn't think I'd nail it the first time around. This is new territory


----------



## n_olympios

When I got my 3D-printed rings, they needed a fair amount of work to reach a point where I was really satisfied with them. They were really rough when they first arrived. Nothing a bit of careful sanding wouldn't fix though.


----------



## herpelcano

Awesome work on the rings. I think I may have to steal that idea. Sorry if I missed it but where did you get the mesh grill material?


----------



## Neil_J

herpelcano said:


> Awesome work on the rings. I think I may have to steal that idea. Sorry if I missed it but where did you get the mesh grill material?


McMaster Carr. That's where I also get all of my chrome and stainless steel hardware from.


----------



## Neil_J

n_olympios said:


> When I got my 3D-printed rings, they needed a fair amount of work to reach a point where I was really satisfied with them. They were really rough when they first arrived. Nothing a bit of careful sanding wouldn't fix though.


What do you think I should use to make them more smooth? Body filler, bondo, etc?


----------



## strakele

Sandpaper?

As long as the quality of the print is pretty good I'd try that first. I sanded the parts I had 3D printed for my senior design project and it worked fine.


----------



## n_olympios

We used sandpaper, then base coat, sandpaper, base coat, then spray paint.

In retrospect, and since my best friend created the autocad drawings to send the company that made them (as a gift to me), had we known they're that rough he'd have incorporated that into his drawing so we could then file them down to 100% accurate. We didn't know, so there was a bit of work to be done on them when we got them in our hands. The final product was seemlessly equal to the L1proSE rings though, which was the goal all along.  Bar the colour theme of course, as I couldn't find a bronze spray that 100% matched the HAT tweeter's one, so I opted for full black matte.


----------



## astrochex

Neil_J said:


> I need to repaint the grill, I'm not happy with it as-is.
> 
> P.S. sorry about the crappy iPhone pics...


Is that the MMC Hexagon Hole perforated sheet painted with nail polish? What don't you like about the paint?


----------



## Neil_J

astrochex said:


> Is that the MMC Hexagon Hole perforated sheet painted with nail polish? What don't you like about the paint?


In my super-limited experience with using nail polish, it gets clumpy when you're painting larger areas, as it starts to dry. I'm going to probably get one of those small spray guns like the guys use to paint murals on car hoods and chopper gas tanks. That will ensure a more even coat. I SUCK with a rattle-can, I've never mastered that. Plasti-dip is too thick and too uneven. I need a black that's nice and glossy to match the tweets.


----------



## clix`g35

your going to have the same problems with a rattle can then you do with an Airbursh. 

The secret to rattle can is light coats and many of them. Cheaper then getting an airbrush set up for two 3 inch grills.


----------



## ecbmxer

Neil_J said:


> McMaster Carr. That's where I also get all of my chrome and stainless steel hardware from.


Ah man, I didn't think of Mcmaster for grill! I need some for my mids to match my tweets to replace the grill cloth ones I made. Those 3D printed trim rings look dope. I might have to go the same route. Did you mention what they cost? Just curious.


----------



## Neil_J

clix`g35 said:


> your going to have the same problems with a rattle can then you do with an Airbursh.
> 
> The secret to rattle can is light coats and many of them. Cheaper then getting an airbrush set up for two 3 inch grills.


Well I also gotta paint my pillars too  but yea.

I've always assumed that rattle cans were inferior in air pressure, volume of air moved, and nozzle design, when compared to a professional paint gun. But I agree that either way, knowing how to paint is the most important part.


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> Ah man, I didn't think of Mcmaster for grill! I need some for my mids to match my tweets to replace the grill cloth ones I made. Those 3D printed trim rings look dope. I might have to go the same route. Did you mention what they cost? Just curious.


Yep. $20 each and they'll fit any speaker with the same bolt pattern as a L3SE, and you can order them from shapeways (i linked them a few posts back). The chrome wrap was $20 or so. They're meant to be used with socket head cap screws, usually 18-8 stainless or chrome, which can be purchased at McMaster Carr.

I do think once I get them sanded and re-wrapped, they'll be superior to the status-quo grill cloth rings


----------



## n_olympios

If you spray using small, even squirts from a distance of 20-30cm, with horizontal and vertical movements, then you probably won't need to buy an airbrush. But even if you do, it's the same method.


----------



## Neil_J

Would Krylon Fusion work? I've got a can of that laying around.


----------



## Bluenote

Nice trim rings! Pardon my ignorance but how did you affix the grill piece to the trim ring? Is it glued on?


----------



## Neil_J

Bluenote said:


> Nice trim rings! Pardon my ignorance but how did you affix the grill piece to the trim ring? Is it glued on?


The steel mesh was dremeled into a circle until it would just barely fit in the recess, making sure to keep the edges sharp. They dig into the plastic, and since the mesh was pounded out into a dome, the sharp edges dig in and keeps it in place quite well. Once I redo the black gloss paint to my liking, I'll use a solder iron and melt the plastic over the mesh in a few spots to make sure it will never move.


----------



## Bluenote

Thanks, I can see that once you have all the pieces you need, the imagination just kicks in and things fall into place. I really like the ideas your sharing.


----------



## Bluenote

Thanks, I can see that once you have all the pieces you need, the imagination just kicks in and things fall into place. I really like the ideas your sharing.


----------



## Neil_J

Lots of pictures tomorrow hopefully. I'm in the process of adding filler to the A-pillar pods, and am also re-doing the chrome grilles and the hexagonal mesh inserts in between coats. I'm taking my time as I really want to make sure I do it right the first time. I spent last Monday thru Friday listening to them, and REALLY like how they sound, so I have to make sure that they are going to last a while.


----------



## n_olympios

Neil_J said:


> Would Krylon Fusion work? I've got a can of that laying around.


Sorry Neil, I'm not familiar with that product.


----------



## Neil_J

My god, working with body filler sucks. Especially when it's hardened out a bit, it's been sitting half-empty in my garage for two or three months, after it was used to build my girlfriend's sub box. Tons of pinholes, it was way too hard and didn't spread for crap. I've ordered another quart of it, and some Evercoat 1249 "honey" that will hopefully thin out the stuff I already have (Evercoat 157 lite weight).

You guys that have done this before make it look easy. My hats off to you, sirs.


----------



## JayinMI

In a pinch, if my filler is like that, I like to pick up a quart (if I just need a little bit) of Dynatron Dyna Delite yellow body filler at Autozone. It is VERY similar to Rage Gold. But it's kinda pricey at about $17/qt. Summit racing has Kromate Lite for about $17/gal and Bing recommended it once. My next project I will probably give it a try.

Also, if you let it tack up, shape it with a cheese grater (or similar body shop tool) then use some 40 grit sand paper to smooth it out before it hardens up it is really quick/easy to work with.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> In a pinch, if my filler is like that, I like to pick up a quart (if I just need a little bit) of Dynatron Dyna Delite yellow body filler at Autozone. It is VERY similar to Rage Gold. But it's kinda pricey at about $17/qt. Summit racing has Kromate Lite for about $17/gal and Bing recommended it once. My next project I will probably give it a try.
> 
> Also, if you let it tack up, shape it with a cheese grater (or similar body shop tool) then use some 40 grit sand paper to smooth it out before it hardens up it is really quick/easy to work with.


Yea, I'm just gonna rock them as-is in the car, until I get the replacement filler and other stuff shows up (seems safest to continue with the same type). They still sound pretty good, even looking as ugly as they do, so at least I'll have tunes.

Watching some videos on youtube, yea the filler I had was WAAAY too dried out. I can't believe I got as far as I did with it. I wonder if it's going to have any long-term issues.

No pics today, as they look pretty rough and will just invite criticism. I already know where I screwed up and how I'd do it over if I could. This has been a learning experience to say the least.


----------



## Tominizer

I'm still watching this thread with great interest. That's really something special when you can find the sweet spot that brings out all the fruits of your labour. The biggest thing I've found in the past with listening is that some recorded material just sounds awesome while other pieces sound like crap. Selecting proper testing material to listen to and understanding what your listening for is HUGE. It's something I need to master.

On another note, in the Mini infront of the door handle latch, there seems to be a nice spot there for a mid to be custom fabricated into the door panel............. possibly............ if it doesn't block the vent. Depth is the concern and you need to cut the door panel, so there's no return. But possibly with some trimming of the aluminum rail behind the panel, it may be a fit. I'm eye-balling it and taking measurements to see if the Dayton mid I have will fit there. Just throwing it out there into the discussion as it relates back to a posting about Andy's Mini and his mids were higher up in the doors (?!?!). And I have a second set of door skins now.


----------



## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> My god, working with body filler sucks. Especially when it's hardened out a bit, it's been sitting half-empty in my garage for two or three months, after it was used to build my girlfriend's sub box. Tons of pinholes, it was way too hard and didn't spread for crap. I've ordered another quart of it, and some Evercoat 1249 "honey" that will hopefully thin out the stuff I already have (Evercoat 157 lite weight).
> 
> You guys that have done this before make it look easy. My hats off to you, sirs.


Neil-

You can thin it out by adding fiberglass resin. Works really well. Especially if you just want a smoother skim coat. In fact, I mixed up a small batch (maybe 2 ounces of resin and hardener, then added about an ounce and a half of filler (rage gold) and it produced a nice thin mixture that hardens nicely and actually self-leveled after I brushed it on.


----------



## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> Watching some videos on youtube, yea the filler I had was WAAAY too dried out. I can't believe I got as far as I did with it. I wonder if it's going to have any long-term issues.


As long as it catalyzed and hardened up, you're fine.



Neil_J said:


> No pics today, as they look pretty rough and will just invite criticism. I already know where I screwed up and how I'd do it over if I could. This has been a learning experience to say the least.


Fiberglassing takes some time to get comfortable with. Experience is what makes you better at doing it well and efficiently. Don't worry a bit about an mess-ups. They are almost always easy to fix. And lots of times, things look pretty horrible until they are finished. Don't be gun-shy about posting pics up of an unfinished product. The fellas here aren't going to bash the work either way. In fact, I've gotten some helpful replies to my un-finished work that have pointed me in directions I hadn't considered, or offered encouragement to try to go the extra mile- all of which is beneficial and appreciated. Keep up the good work my friend !


-Steve


----------



## Neil_J

As I said earlier, go easy on me because my fiberglass skills suck, and I didn't follow a lot of rules that I should have in hindsight.










I knew after getting the rings glued in place on-axis that the angles were a bit too steep to do the normal "stretch the fabric _really_ tight over everything" technique. I tried and it was breaking popsicle sticks. So I picked up a technique from a fellow diyma member where the cloth is stapled and glued and then a bunch of body filler is then added to make it look smooth. In retrospect it was very labor intensive, but I was able to sculpt the shape (which is incredibly complex compared to most I've seen) with a lot more control than the stretchy technique usually offers.



















After the second coat of resin, as the first one was pretty light and I missed some spots.



















At this point (last weekend when the pic was taken), I was noticing that the filler was way too thick, I was getting pinholes and it was extremely hard to apply. Keep in mind I had no idea what I was doing, what it was supposed to look and feel like, etc. After some googling, I ordered some new lightweight filler (the stuff I had was old was there wasn't much left), and some "Evercoat 1249 Plastik Honey" filler thinner. That did the trick. It spreads like honey, I got zero pinholes, and it was pretty much self-leveling. Great stuff, wish I would have had it before (or tried the resin trick mentioned by others).









Evercoat liteweight body filler









Evercoat 1249 Plastik Honey











These pictures were taken today, which is the result of about two straight days of adding layers of filler and then sanding with my cheap Black and Decker mouse sander. They're taking shape, and look pretty good so far.


















This picture was taken by complete accident when I was trying to see if the lens was dusty. It wasn't, but apparently my beard was.


----------



## Neil_J

Driver's side pillar





Passenger's side pillar


----------



## BowDown

Holy **** man. You look nothing like what I pictured you as. Rock on! Fiberglass gets easier the more you do it. I sense revision 3 is in the future. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> Holy **** man. You look nothing like what I pictured you as. Rock on! Fiberglass gets easier the more you do it. I sense revision 3 is in the future.


Lol 

No revision 3 if I can help it. They sound good enough for me. I just want to get them done and listen to music.


----------



## Mic10is

how do you plan to finish the pillars? those would be a huge PITA to wrap in pretty much any material at least without stitching it and seaming.
SEM texture coat, or Duplicolor bedliner sprayed from about 2 ft away can give you an OEM like texture finish.
Duplicolor bedliner if sprayed right can give you a vinyl "look"

or Flock it, but if you flock it--you wont be listenin to them anytime soon.


----------



## Neil_J

Mic10is said:


> how do you plan to finish the pillars? those would be a huge PITA to wrap in pretty much any material at least without stitching it and seaming.
> SEM texture coat, or Duplicolor bedliner sprayed from about 2 ft away can give you an OEM like texture finish.
> Duplicolor bedliner if sprayed right can give you a vinyl "look"
> 
> or Flock it, but if you flock it--you wont be listenin to them anytime soon.


Exactly what I was thinking. Impossible to wrap, there's too many curves. I've never flocked before. I was contemplating taking the easy way out and just plasti-dipping them... But the bedliner is intriguing. I suck at automotive paint (and don't have the patience to sand down to that level of detail), but the bedliner would hide the minor imperfections. I'll definitely investigate that.


----------



## Mic10is

sand it down as smooth as possible. Bedliner will still reflect some light, so you can still tell when you have dips and voids.
so sand it smooth.

Get the Duplicolor bedliner. the others dont have as fine of a texture.

Get a coat hanger or string or something to suspend the pillar.

Stand about 2ft away or farther for a finer texture and after you spray the can a few times to get the product flowing then start misting the pillar in short bursts.

after its dried you can use a colorcoat to match your interior better.

Steve Head did his dash and many other pieces using this technique. Ive done it many times since learning it from him


----------



## captainobvious

Nothing "wrong" with the way you did it Neil, you just end up using more product and have more sanding time. They look like they are coming along nicely 

I've also done the texture coating for pillars in the previous Mazda (a different product than Mic's recommendation but similar effect) and it turned out nice. I guess you could also have someone wrap them for you for a really nice final product.


----------



## bertholomey

Neil_J said:


> This picture was taken by complete accident when I was trying to see if the lens was dusty. It wasn't, but apparently my beard was.


Wow! 

That beard has certainly grown since this pic was taken.


----------



## req

LOL BEARD! thats the first thing i said when i saw that too haha 

my wife and car are in that picture! ^^


----------



## ecbmxer

Seeing as how awesome the other aspects of your install are, I think you should send the pillars out to JPM Coachworks, etc to have them wrapped. You could always give some of that 4-way stretch vinyl a shot. Or do grill cloth. Not sure what the interior color/fabrics are like in the mini.


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> Seeing as how awesome the other aspects of your install are, I think you should send the pillars out to JPM Coachworks, etc to have them wrapped. You could always give some of that 4-way stretch vinyl a shot. Or do grill cloth. Not sure what the interior color/fabrics are like in the mini.


Only if you and others are making donations  This project is over budget and I've gotta start putting some money away for those rainy days ahead  This is Rich Man's sport (or upper-middle class at the least), and I'm unfortunately not in the financial shape I was two years ago. 

I'd be afraid to ask what they'd charge to wrap them.


----------



## Neil_J

bertholomey said:


> Wow!
> 
> That beard has certainly grown since this pic was taken.


Last October I got talked into going to a Halloween party by my girlfriend, and I decided to go as Opie from Sons of Anarchy. Decided to keep it for the manly month of Movember. And never shaved it off


----------



## bertholomey

Neil_J said:


> Last October I got talked into going to a Halloween party by my girlfriend, and I decided to go as Opie from Sons of Anarchy. Decided to keep it for the manly month of Movember. And never shaved it off


I think it looks really cool......not in a Duck Dynasty kind of way  

Pic of a very cool dude that hosted a headphone 'meet' that I attended.


----------



## quietfly

Neil_J said:


> Last October I got talked into going to a Halloween party by my girlfriend, and I decided to go as Opie from Sons of Anarchy. Decided to keep it for the manly month of Movember. And never shaved it off


you guys should have went as zombie opie and zombie donna, complete with matching carnage!!!! but in anycase the beard is rockin!!! so are the pillars!
:laugh:


----------



## Neil_J

Looks like Greg from South East Customz will be priming and painting my A-pillars next week. He is a pro beyond repute, and that should guarantee that they get done right the first time.

That will give me some time to do some much needed work on my doors. I've ready done a ton of work on the doors but they continue to rattle like crazy. It's gotten better but it's once again the weak link now that the A-pillars are nearing completion. Really makes me wish that I had room for kick panel midbasses.


----------



## falstaff

Any update?


----------



## Neil_J

falstaff said:


> Any update?


Greg is still finishing the priming/painting of my A-pillars, I should have those back by Friday hopefully. Besides getting those installed, and doing a bit of work on the doors, that's probably going to be about it for this build log. Oh, I do still have to get the midbass trim rings fabricated and installed, but that's pretty minor. I've got a few shows to do in the coming weeks/months, so I'll be sure to take a bunch of pics and a few videos while it's freshly waxed and cleaned.

I still want to get the CarPC going eventually, but I've got other real-world issues that have become more important. The important thing is that the car does sound great at the moment, and as soon as I get all the panels put back on, it should look pretty sweet as well.


----------



## falstaff

Neil_J said:


> Greg is still finishing the priming/painting of my A-pillars, I should have those back by Friday hopefully. Besides getting those installed, and doing a bit of work on the doors, that's probably going to be about it for this build log. Oh, I do still have to get the midbass trim rings fabricated and installed, but that's pretty minor. I've got a few shows to do in the coming weeks/months, so I'll be sure to take a bunch of pics and a few videos while it's freshly waxed and cleaned.
> 
> I still want to get the CarPC going eventually, but I've got other real-world issues that have become more important. The important thing is that the car does sound great at the moment, and as soon as I get all the panels put back on, it should look pretty sweet as well.


Sounds good. Looking forward to seeing you and Kel hopefully in a few weeks at Octave.


----------



## Tominizer

Looking forward to seeing some pictures


----------



## bugs ears

astrochex said:


> Is that the MMC Hexagon Hole perforated sheet painted with nail polish? What don't you like about the paint?




hello,

I would like to know where you can provide to grid type, in France it is quite limited in supplies

thank you in advance


----------



## JayinMI

A lot of people on here get stuff like that here:

McMaster-Carr

Scroll down.

Jay


----------



## bugs ears

JayinMI said:


> A lot of people on here get stuff like that here:
> 
> McMaster-Carr
> 
> Scroll down.
> 
> Jay


thanks


----------



## Neil_J

Got my A-pillars back today. Man they looking freaking amazing! Massive thanks to Greg at South East Customz for the priming/painting. I owe you one dude.

Pics to follow....


----------



## Deadpool_25

Hurry it up, dammit!


----------



## south east customz

Don't forgot about all the sanding and prep! Lol
I think they will work very well


----------



## Neil_J

Here's a Youtubes, more in a bit...


----------



## audio+civic

Awesome texture on the pods.


----------



## Neil_J

Just got them installed. They look and sound freaking amazing and I couldn't be happier  

Greg's paint job made them really look stock. And the chrome trim blends with the interior very well. I love it when things finally come together. At this point, I'm calling the pillars done and will never go back and redo them or tweak them.

Would post pics but that would make me late for work. Hopefully tonight if I get home before it gets dark.


----------



## Neil_J

So it appears that one of my JL XD700.5 channels is starting to crap out. This is the second channel that I've had problems with in my setup. The first was the sub channel on one of the two XD500.3's. Now I've lost a midbass channel on the XD700.5.

I thought these things were supposed to be beefy amps. I'm not wiring them at .5 ohms or something stupid like that. In fact I've had my midbasses turned way down for almost two years because my doors were rattling like crazy. Now that I've added 10+ pounds of duct seal per door (I'll do a full post on that later), I put the midbass gains where they should be, and the left one's making some really painful noises. Swapped the L6SE out with another midbass laying around and checked the wiring, and confirmed it's indeed the amp. 

So as of today my system is as follows:

*JL XD700.5 #1, channel #1:* FL mid/tweeter, HAT L3SE & L1 Pro R2 via HAT L2x crossover (4 ohm, 75W at amp)
*JL XD700.5 #1, channel #2:* FR mid/tweeter, HAT L3SE & L1 Pro R2 via HAT L2x crossover (4 ohm, 75W at amp)
*JL XD700.5 #1, channel #3:* Center channel, Tang Band 3"
*JL XD700.5 #1, channel #4:* Currently unused
*JL XD700.5 #1, channel #5:* Subwoofer #1 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)

*JL XD700.5 #2, channel #1&2:* FL midbass, HAT L6SE (bridged, 4 ohm, 200W)
*JL XD700.5 #2, channel #3&4:* FR midbass, HAT L6SE (bridged, 4 ohm, 200W)
*JL XD700.5 #2, channel #5:* Subwoofer #2 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)

*JL XD500.3 #1, channel 1&2:* Subwoofer #3 (bridged 2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 200W)
*JL XD500.3 #1, channel 3:* Busted/broken. Used to run Sub #3.

*JL XD500.3 #2, channel 1:* RL fullrange, HAT Mirus 6x9 (4 ohm, 75W)
*JL XD500.3 #2, channel 2:* RR fullrange, HAT Mirus 6x9 (4 ohm, 75W)
*JL XD500.3 #2, channel 3:* Subwoofer #4 (2x 4-ohm voice coils in parallel, 300W)










Since this is the second channel that's broken, and I've got no spare cash to get either fixed (or patience to wait for the RMA process), I'm seriously considering scaling the insanity of 4 amps down to something more modest, like a simple 3-way with a sub. Two years later, I've not had nearly as much luck with the 5.1 surround stuff, and the A-pillars came out so good, I don't really need the center channel any more. So that would put me at something more like this:

*JL XD500.3, channel 1:* FL mid/tweeter, HAT L3SE & L1 Pro R2 via HAT L2x crossover (4 ohm, 75W at amp)
*JL XD500.3, channel 2:* FR mid/tweeter, HAT L3SE & L1 Pro R2 via HAT L2x crossover (4 ohm, 75W at amp)
*JL XD500.3, channel 3:* Subwoofer #1&2 (wire each speaker dual voice coils in parallel. Then in series with the other speaker. 300W)

*JL XD700.5, channel #1&2:* FL midbass, HAT L6SE (bridged, 4 ohm, 200W)
*JL XD700.5, channel #3&4:* FR midbass, HAT L6SE (bridged, 4 ohm, 200W)
*JL XD700.5, channel #5:* Subwoofer #3&4 (wire each speaker dual voice coils in parallel. Then in series with the other speaker. 300W)

This would of course mean that one of my lovely amp racks would be coming out, and likely going up for sale in the classifieds. 

At this point, the practicality and modesty is winning over the pantomime craziness and insanity of having 16 channels. We'll see I guess.


----------



## AccordUno

Don't you just hate that.. Wire up everything getting playing and you start to loose channels.. I've had that happened to me a few times this year and gotten really bummed out and want to just yank everything out.. 

I say get it RMA'd and get it back and keep the way it is.. Looking too good to have to redo..


----------



## Neil_J

AccordUno said:


> Don't you just hate that.. Wire up everything getting playing and you start to loose channels.. I've had that happened to me a few times this year and gotten really bummed out and want to just yank everything out..
> 
> I say get it RMA'd and get it back and keep the way it is.. Looking too good to have to redo..


Will be at least Monday before I can attempt it. I've owned at least three of them and have to figure out which on it is; whether it's still under warranty; where I bought it from; go through the dealer from where it was purchased... JL Audio doesn't like to support directly unfortunately. I might try to contact Manville Smith though, I'm not sure if he's seen my project yet but it's gotten a lot of visibility and maybe they can help me out. We'll see. 

But again. 
This completely sucks. 
So much for buying name brand equipment.

I'm buying Power Bass or Pyramid next time.


----------



## nittanylion64

Never had an issue with any of my Powerbass amps, so yeah, give them a try


----------



## Neil_J

Back in 2011, when this build log started, one of the first things I did was to fabricate some midbass adapter rings, so I could mount the L6SE's in the factory location. I had them laser-cut from two pieces of 1/4" MDF glued together. Sounded great at the time, but even after a few heavy coats of sealer, they still swelled and eventually broke. I got a replacement set cut to the same dimensions, but this time made out of UHMW plastic (thanks to mnjordan for fabricating them on his home CNC). 

With the new OEM trim rings in place, I added 10+ pounds of duct seal to each door in a final attempt to eliminate the rattles in my door (spoilers: It worked )










What really killed the MDF spacers was the non-hardening modeling clay that I used before I got turned onto the duct seal. The oils seep out and into the wood, causing it to swell. 




























Recovering the 6-32 hurricane nuts from the old adapters...



































































































That's about 4.5 pounds per door pull 










Oh. There was caulk involved. Lots and lots of black floppy silicone caulk, stuffed into all sorts of little places 

Overall result: By far the best investment of time and money yet. The doors have always rattled like crazy, even after some previous treatment and deadening. Mostly upper harmonics on heavy kick drum transients. This was the nail in the coffin though. My car is almost listenable now. I just leveled up again  Now to get the left midbass amp channel repaired/replaced so I can actually listen to some music.


----------



## bbfoto

Sorry to hear about your amp.  Hopefully Manville will take care of you. JL Audio will repair any JL amp directly (even if not under warranty), but IIRC it's $180 flat charge no matter what the problem. 

Great job on your doors! I would imagine that they're much better now.  The doors were just one of the things that I really disliked about my 1st Gen MCS's design. My door panels seemed like cheap, lightweight, plastic junk. They are so bad for installing aftermarket speakers that it almost made me go the kickpanel route, which is definitely not an easy task.

OT, but have you replaced the Harmonic Balancer and/or Belt Tensioner yet? I would check the HB if you have more than 30k miles on your Mini. The rubber that holds the two pieces together will slowly deteriorate, crack, and separate, and can cause major engine damage/bearing wear in a short amount of time. Replace it with one of the MUCH better after-market Harmonic Balancers (I can give you links if needed). I had to do this at just 59k as the HB failed and caused the upper motor mount to crack as well! It also ruined the belt tensioner/pulley. But my MCS ran noticibly smoother and quieter and with less vibration than when it was new (once I replaced the HB and belt tensioner...and motor mount).

Replacing the HB and upper motor mount is easy, but replacing the belt tensioner/pulley is an incredible PITA! 
Hopefully it's been redesigned on yours for easier replacement. I can't believe how difficult the engineers made it to replace a simple belt pulley/tensioner. 

Also, the shift link cable assemblies are a horrible design. If you begin to experience slight or major difficulty when shifting gears, check them out (there are two, and the moulded rubber ends will slowly deteriorate and eventually break off and leave you stranded, unable to shift gears).

Back on topic, your pillars look fantastic, and I'm glad that you're finally able to begin to hear the potential of the HAT SE drivers that you purchased.  Hopefully you can get your amp sorted out soon because I honestly feel that you'd be missing something if you went with just one amp rack. Good luck and enjoy the music.


----------



## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> Sorry to hear about your amp.  Hopefully Manville will take care of you. JL Audio will repair any JL amp directly (even if not under warranty), but IIRC it's $180 flat charge no matter what the problem.


Well yesterday I got the "amp rack bisection" done, and swapped the two XD700.5's out. I still have the same problem! I racked my brain yesterday trying to figure out what the heck could be causing it. Seems to be somehow inherent to the XD amps. I figured I was smart enough to set my gains properly, and I've followed all the instructions, but for some reason, that channel still clips the signal, creating higher-order harmonics that sound just plain terrible. I'll probably be troubleshooting it for the rest of the day. I'm going to try and use my Tektronix TDS2024 oscilloscope on it, but I've had issues in the past because it (like most other scopes) are single-ended and tie the return back to the mains AC ground/common. This is one of the few times in life when one of those little DSO Quad Pocket Scopes would actually come in handy.




> Great job on your doors! I would imagine that they're much better now.  The doors were just one of the things that I really disliked about my 1st Gen MCS's design. My door panels seemed like cheap, lightweight, plastic junk. They are so bad for installing aftermarket speakers that it almost made me go the kickpanel route, which is definitely not an easy task.


I agree with everything you just said about the doors. I almost went kickpanels too but had no idea how the heck I'd actually squeeze them in while still retaining access to the fusepanel, hood release, etc

[/quote]OT, but have you replaced the Harmonic Balancer and/or Belt Tensioner yet? I would check the HB if you have more than 30k miles on your Mini. The rubber that holds the two pieces together will slowly deteriorate, crack, and separate, and can cause major engine damage/bearing wear in a short amount of time. Replace it with one of the MUCH better after-market Harmonic Balancers (I can give you links if needed). I had to do this at just 59k as the HB failed and caused the upper motor mount to crack as well! It also ruined the belt tensioner/pulley. But my MCS ran noticibly smoother and quieter and with less vibration than when it was new (once I replaced the HB and belt tensioner...and motor mount).

Replacing the HB and upper motor mount is easy, but replacing the belt tensioner/pulley is an incredible PITA! 
Hopefully it's been redesigned on yours for easier replacement. I can't believe how difficult the engineers made it to replace a simple belt pulley/tensioner. [/quote]
I'll research to see if it's a problem on the second gen. The first gen and second gen engines are two different beasts, the latter being a Peugeot block with BMW parts glued onto it. Those engineers that design stuff to be difficult to replace get bonuses for every penny they save off the bottom line 



> Back on topic, your pillars look fantastic, and I'm glad that you're finally able to begin to hear the potential of the HAT SE drivers that you purchased.


Thanks, I still need to get some decent pictures of them, but my car interior is still apart and the car is filthy. I'm hoping to have it put back together today and cleaned, and I'll be extra fortunate if I can tackle the amp clipping issue.



> Hopefully you can get your amp sorted out soon because I honestly feel that you'd be missing something if you went with just one amp rack. Good luck and enjoy the music.


Well the bisection is complete so there's no turning back now :laugh: The more I think about it, the better off that I'll be with only two amps. I couldn't even get to the gain controls on the midbass or rear channels. That caused a lot of grief yesterday as I couldn't remember where I had set them before. Now I can get to all of my controls if necessary.
Ant it really simplifies things down to the bare essentials. The other channels were for rear, center channel, etc. But like I said, the surround stuff never worked in practice. The rear channels are very tricky to equalize since the left one gets blocked by the driver seat, and they're hard if not impossible to localize. The center channel bounced off of the windshield and was impossible to match up to the L3SE's and L1 Pro R2's. The little Tang Band just didn't have the power to keep up either. And I didn't have the money to add one of HAT's new dome midrange or an L3SE to the center. Now that the mids are up on the pillars, getting a stable center image is a million times easer, so I don't really need the center channel.

I'm pretty happy now as long as I can get this midbass channel fixed. I think I'm 99.99% the way to an excellent sounding car.


----------



## JayinMI

I have one of those DSO scopes, but have noooo idea how to use it. lol
I need to watch some Youtube videos.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

Just figured out why the midbass channel was distorting like crazy... I feel like an idiot.


----------



## JayinMI

Grounded terminal or something?

So, now that you have it figured out, you wouldn't have had to split the amp rack?

Jay


----------



## Deadpool_25

Neil_J said:


> Just figured out why the midbass channel was distorting like crazy... I feel like an idiot.


I was starting to wonder if it wasn't something simple instead of an amp problem. So I'm assuming you fixed it? If so what are your plans now? Stay with the reconfig? 

And it's okay...you can tell us what it was. I'm guessing we've all been there.


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> Grounded terminal or something?
> 
> So, now that you have it figured out, you wouldn't have had to split the amp rack?


The XD series amps require you to use an RCA "Y" adapter when bridging an output. Since I've got so many cables running around, I decided to open up the amp and install shorting jumpers and simply feed the signal into the left RCA input. 

I had one XD700.5 amp that was modified and one that wasn't. One of them somehow had a cold solder joint which caused the left channel to only output the top part of the bridged signal and not the bottom. If you hook a speaker up it will play, but will do so at reduced output and distort if you drive it high enough.

The stupid part was that I didn't do an ohm check to make sure the shorted pins were still in fact shorted; and I didn't set my gains properly because I was in a hurry.

I'm still happy about going with the more modest setup. Easier to troubleshoot (as long as I apply what common sense I have), and lightened up my car by about 20 pounds.


----------



## Deadpool_25

Well if you like it better with the reconfig, maybe that was a blessing in disguise.


----------



## Neil_J

Now that the midbass channels are working properly, I spent pretty much the entire day working on a new tune, starting from a clean slate. Amp gains were set with an AC volt meter, polarity was checked on each and every speaker via a microphone and a special test track, Drivers were level-matched, and impulse responses were recorded and analyzed for time alignment and rough equalization. 

So this is pretty much the first time I've been able to tune and get a reasonably-solid center image (thanks to the A-pillars), AND get the midbasses to sound decent (thanks to the 20+ pounds of deadening material added to the doors). Usually I would give up at this point because it sounded so bad, or I couldn't put up with whatever processor I had at the time, or something would break. I'd give up and just deal with a crappy tune.

Well today all those excuses are gone, and after only one day, it's sounding pretty damn good. I think after a few more tuning sessions, it will be actually something that I would want others to listen to.

This is good


----------



## mrstangerbanger

So the clay stuff was duct seal ? were did you get it and does it harden?


----------



## Neil_J

mrstangerbanger said:


> So the clay stuff was duct seal ? were did you get it and does it harden?


Any big-box home improvement store, in the electrical section near the zip-ties and conduit EMT fittings. Normally used for waterproofing a holes/fittings where wires pass through. I walked into two separate stores and just grabbed the whole display box.

I don't have any long-term data but I was recommended it by others that say it doesn't melt (well at least compared to non-hardening modelling clay or peal and seal. 

$2.78 per pound at Lowes (and exactly the same price at Home Depot).
Shop Gardner Bender 1-lb Pug Duct Seal at Lowes.com

They've got it at Amazon, but it's over $5 a pound:
Gardner Bender DS-110N 1-Pound Duct Seal Compound - Amazon.com


----------



## mrstangerbanger

Neil_J said:


> Any big-box home improvement store, in the electrical section near the zip-ties and conduit EMT fittings. Normally used for waterproofing a holes/fittings where wires pass through. I walked into two separate stores and just grabbed the whole display box.
> 
> I don't have any long-term data but I was recommended it by others that say it doesn't melt (well at least compared to non-hardening modelling clay or peal and seal.
> 
> $2.78 per pound at Lowes (and exactly the same price at Home Depot).
> Shop Gardner Bender 1-lb Pug Duct Seal at Lowes.com
> 
> They've got it at Amazon, but it's over $5 a pound:
> Gardner Bender DS-110N 1-Pound Duct Seal Compound - Amazon.com



Does it harden thou?


----------



## Neil_J

mrstangerbanger said:


> Does it harden thou?


Again, not that I know of. It says "non-hardening" on the wrapper. But unless anyone else can chime in, I can't really say until I've got some long term experience with it.


----------



## JayinMI

I have some that's about 3 years old and it's still soft and pliable. I'm also told it was used to seal ducts on Navy ships and it was still moist and pliable 20 years later. Martin (formerly amitaF...can't remember his screen name this week, lol) says the same thing.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

JayinMI said:


> I have some that's about 3 years old and it's still soft and pliable. I'm also told it was used to seal ducts on Navy ships and it was still moist and pliable 20 years later. Martin (formerly amitaF...can't remember his screen name this week, lol) says the same thing.
> 
> Jay


IBCivic


----------



## JayinMI

Thanks. For the life of me I couldn't come up with it.

Jay


----------



## Neil_J

So I don't have much progress to report that I can show visually; but I have made a lot of progress in tuning and dialing-in the H800. I've leveled up several times in the last few weeks, SQ-wise:

First, the A-pillars which I'm still incredibly happy about. 

Second, the work done to tame the door midbass rattles. 

Third, actually getting a working CD player (I've been using an iPad via AUX in to my DSP for almost two years). I purchased a CDA-117 a while back after all-but-giving-up on the CarPC project. Problem was, it was used, and the CD player skipped really bad even when the car wasn't moving. In the Diyma spirit, I started a thread asking for help and found that I could get a replacement CD mechanism for $50 shipped (thanks imjustjason), and about two days later, I was back in business. Now going from iPad back to CD was a bit of a throwback for me, I've not really used CDs in the car since I was in high school. But it's working pretty great, I can hear the SQ difference; not from the iPad DAC, but from the noise picked up in the AUX cable as the iPad doesn't put out a lot of voltage and needs some gain boost, and also from the fact that most of my music collection was compressed (a lot of it 128kbps from a decade or more ago). It seems a little retro to use CDs but I'm rolling with it and it only makes me a little sad not to have finished my CarPC. A worthy compromise I suppose if it means I can concentrate on actually making the car sound good.

Fourth, going in and tuning with a fresh slate, dropping my RTA and doing it all (well most) by ear, even the time alignment (thanks to Greg200SE-R's time-alignment with pink noise writeup).

So the results so far are amazing. Even with a flat eq above 80 hz, it's jaw droppingly better than what I had six months ago. Once I get it fully dialed in, I think it will actually be something to be proud of. Right now I've got a completely new appreciation for music, and have been going through my songs again. I'm also finding a growing number of songs in my collection that were mastered very badly and don't sound that great, that's sort of a bummer but was expected.


----------



## JayinMI

Neil_J said:


> I'm also finding a growing number of songs in my collection that were mastered very badly and don't sound that great, that's sort of a bummer but was expected.


Yeah, as my system gets better a lot of the music I normally enjoy sounded pretty bad. At least during critical listening. lol

Jay


----------



## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> The XD series amps require you to use an RCA "Y" adapter when bridging an output. Since I've got so many cables running around, I decided to open up the amp and install shorting jumpers and simply feed the signal into the left RCA input.
> 
> I had one XD700.5 amp that was modified and one that wasn't. One of them somehow had a cold solder joint which caused the left channel to only output the top part of the bridged signal and not the bottom. If you hook a speaker up it will play, but will do so at reduced output and distort if you drive it high enough.
> 
> The stupid part was that I didn't do an ohm check to make sure the shorted pins were still in fact shorted; and I didn't set my gains properly because I was in a hurry.
> 
> I'm still happy about going with the more modest setup. Easier to troubleshoot (as long as I apply what common sense I have), and lightened up my car by about 20 pounds.



How did you notice the root cause? (did you open it up or use a diagnostic tool?).
It's interesting that you say this because it reminds me of an issue I just ran in to when doing gain setup and tuning. I used and O-Scope and DMM to find the clipping points and set gains from the head unit back through the processor and amp. When I completed my spreadsheet of all of the output measurements, I noticed that the midbass output on my right amplifier (my two amps are setup for left side of car/right side of car) was about half of the voltage out of the left amp.  After going throug some troubleshooting steps, I ended up finding a similar problem. I use Y adapters for the bridged midbass channels so that it sums gain as well and ended up figuring out that I had a bad Y adapter cable (it was a brand new one too).
Having a proper DMM and Oscope makes setup and troubleshooting SO much easier and effective. I would never have guessed that was the problem as that speaker would play too, albeit at a lower volume and would have to be over-driven compared to the left side, just like you found.

Thanks for sharing the experience as it's always helpful for us to read these things and keep them tucked away to assist with out builds as well.


----------



## captainobvious

Neil_J said:


> So the results so far are amazing. Even with a flat eq above 80 hz, it's jaw droppingly better than what I had six months ago. Once I get it fully dialed in, I think it will actually be something to be proud of. Right now I've got a completely new appreciation for music, and have been going through my songs again. I'm also finding a growing number of songs in my collection that were mastered very badly and don't sound that great, that's sort of a bummer but was expected.



That's awesome Neil. I always love hearing stuff like this. It can be very frustrating at times with the different issues you have to work through to get to the point where you're at, but when you do get there, it is very rewarding. You can finally get to the point where it's about rediscovering your music collection instead of tinkering constantly and being focused on the gear sound instead of the music sound 

I'm almost there as well but still have a couple of gremlins to work out. Congrats bud!


-Steve


----------



## ecbmxer

Super good to hear!


----------



## Neil_J

Thanks guys. If anyone wants to hear it, I'm putting together a Diyma G2G on November 16 for Russ at Octave in Orlando. Will be sending out invitations to 50 or so people, I'm hoping for a decent turnout. Oh, and there will be a tuning workshop that evening that I'm putting together (includes SQ music CD compilation, technical track CD, and printed material that will be helpful to the novice and expert alike).

If you're in Florida, please think about making plans to attend on November 16. If you're from out of state, we've got lovely weather in November  drop the kids off at Disney World and come rock out with us.

Official flyer and info for the g2g will follow (hopefully tonight or tomorrow).


----------



## Neil_J

Here's the official flyer for our fall Orlando meet and greet:




http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nnual-sq-orlando-meet-november-16-2013-a.html

I highly encourage anyone in Florida that can attend, to attend. And either way stop by the thread above and post your thoughts!


----------



## ecbmxer

Hey Neil, did you end up covering/finishing your pillars? If so, what did you use?


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> Hey Neil, did you end up covering/finishing your pillars? If so, what did you use?


Yep, I posted details further up in the thread but haven't got around to taking pictures yet as my car is still torn apart and needs to be cleaned, I've just not had enough hours in the day lately. Will post them soon. They were covered with truck bed liner btw and they look damn near OEM. Couldn't be happier.


----------



## ecbmxer

Awesome! Looking forward to pics. I did not have success with my new vinyl wrap and am looking into other options for my pillars and sail panels now. Grill cloth might be the way I go.


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> Awesome! Looking forward to pics. I did not have success with my new vinyl wrap and am looking into other options for my pillars and sail panels now. Grill cloth might be the way I go.


Black truck bed liner sprayed from really far away. Easier than wrapping and looks amazing. Just don't spray it with Armorall or anything or you will have problems  I've been told to clean them with compressed air.


----------



## Mic10is

Neil_J said:


> Black truck bed liner sprayed from really far away. Easier than wrapping and looks amazing. Just don't spray it with Armorall or anything or you will have problems  I've been told to clean them with compressed air.


Im glad that idea worked out for you. You can armorall it, but find an aerosol type of spray. you really cant wipe it with a cloth bc the texture will grab fibers off the cloth


----------



## ecbmxer

Neil_J said:


> Black truck bed liner sprayed from really far away. Easier than wrapping and looks amazing. Just don't spray it with Armorall or anything or you will have problems  I've been told to clean them with compressed air.


Nice. I did an experiment last night and wrapped one with black sub box carpet. Came out real nice and smooth. Looked terrible in the car. 

So then I wrapped grill cloth over that to see how it would be to use the carpet as padding. I like the texture of the grill cloth, but its way too fat. Now that I know how it will look, I'm going to pull it all back off and do just the grill cloth. Need to get the surface real nice first. I also have an email in to JPM Coachworks on a quote for pillars and sails.


----------



## ultimatemj

Neil, I saw your pics in the "show off" thread and the pillars look great!

I'm curious about your tuning approach...
I presume the tweeters are x-over'd in a purely ILD influenced range. 
And the mids are in HRTF and ITD influenced range.

Since they are on-axis, there is no off-axis roll off (attenuation) to "help" center the tweeter's image. 
So, are you using gain reduction on the tweeter and time delay on the mid? Or a mix?

Does this cause any phasing issues between them? Do you use the same time delay on the tweeter to maintain phase?

OR???​
Thanks!


----------



## Neil_J

ultimatemj said:


> Neil, I saw your pics in the "show off" thread and the pillars look great!
> 
> I'm curious about your tuning approach...
> I presume the tweeters are x-over'd in a purely ILD influenced range.
> And the mids are in HRTF and ITD influenced range.
> 
> Since they are on-axis, there is no off-axis roll off (attenuation) to "help" center the tweeter's image.
> So, are you using gain reduction on the tweeter and time delay on the mid? Or a mix?
> 
> Does this cause any phasing issues between them? Do you use the same time delay on the tweeter to maintain phase?
> 
> OR???​
> Thanks!


I'm currently using a Hybrid L2x passive crossover on the mids and tweets, which is 5700 hz low pass 12 dB/oct Linkwitz Riley and 5200 hz high pass 12 dB/oct Linkwitz Riley. It also has +3 dB, 0, and -3 dB boost or attenuation on the high pass. The tweets definitely have to be attenuated to avoid making people's ears bleed. I'm currently playing with parametric filters and shallow low pass filters on the tweets trying to find what works best. They do share the time delay with the L3SE's (plus any phase distortion added by the crossover) but since they're right next to each other it's not as bad as running passive with doors/sails or something like that. 

I'd like to go full active as I've done in the past (admittedly before the pillars were even started), but currently I don't have enough amp channels. Even though the tweets are up in the ILD range, I've still heard from people on this forum that they'll still sound better when active and properly time aligned with each other. So right now I'm kinda compromising with the passive crossover. It sounds great now and I'm not sure how much better it would sound if I went full active. Could be night and day or barely noticeable. :shrug:


----------



## BowDown

Or you could come up with some fancy DSP that could perform phase shift over a bandpass. Then keep the passives and control them like active .


----------



## Neil_J

BowDown said:


> Or you could come up with some fancy DSP that could perform phase shift over a bandpass. Then keep the passives and control them like active .


My new motto for this build is Keep It Simple Stupid, and it's been doing me great for the last few months. I could easily stuff an extra 2-channel amp underneath the passenger seat and go full-active. But will probably just live with what I have because it mostly works and sounds pretty good


----------



## ecbmxer

So at this point you're running the H800 for processing right? And w/ or w/o a center channel and/or rear fill?


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> So at this point you're running the H800 for processing right? And w/ or w/o a center channel and/or rear fill?


Yep, pretty much.


----------



## Neil_J

Posted these a few days back in the A-pillar thread:


----------



## Neil_J

Upgrades are in order for the Alpine H800 processor. The crappy JRC opamps are getting replaced with some high-quality Texas Instruments SoundPlus (TM) JFET-input OPA1642's. I can't take credit for the idea, there was a guy in the H800 thread that tried the exact same opamps and reported that it made an audible difference. The only thing I'm terribly concerned about is lowering the noise floor. I'm not one to debate "sonic qualities" of part A vs part B, when a 3 dB change on a peaking filter would have more of a difference.

I guess we'll see how they work. I've been sick with an upper respiratory infection since Thursday night, to the point where I'm pretty much bedridden. Not sure when I'll get these installed but I'll update here when I do.


----------



## optimaprime

Wow that blows hope you getting to feel better. Your build demands it.


----------



## Neil_J

optimaprime said:


> Wow that blows hope you getting to feel better. Your build demands it.


Thanks.

If anyone has any suggestions for getting rid of a sinus infection, I'd love to hear it  I get a major sinus infection at least once a year and am pretty stuffed up even when not sick. I've been to over a dozen doctors, both GP's and ENT's. I've tried every holistic and herbal remedy including grape seed extract, neti pot, turmeric, etc etc. All the rounds of prescription antibiotics have made it so that when I do need them, they don't work well. Basically I think my sinus cavities suck and it's time that I get a CT scan and maybe some surgery. But I've heard mixed results there as well.


Sigh. Sinuses seem like a major design flaw by the Creator Almighty. Well that and the prostate. Any engineering student worth his salt would have seen those problems a mile away


----------



## .69077

Usually a short course of Prednisone will reduce swelling enough. 

U used to have issues too before I started taking a zyrtec daily.


----------



## ecbmxer

Neil_J said:


> Yep, pretty much.


Haha OK. 

Pillars look sick btw. That texture finish worked out great. I got new vinyl so I hope to have some pics of mine in the next week. They've been out of the car for what seems like forever.


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> Haha OK.
> 
> Pillars look sick btw. That texture finish worked out great. I got new vinyl so I hope to have some pics of mine in the next week. They've been out of the car for what seems like forever.


Thanks, I've been pretty damn happy with them. Good luck with your vinyl work.


----------



## Neil_J

So I've been running my L6SE's completely naked for like 2 years, no grille or protection or anything:











I've been so busy trying to get the important stuff working that I ended up neglecting something simple like this. I originally designed a crazy CNC'd grille with a Hybrid Audio logo in the middle:










The outside ring turned out to be very hard to machine so I scrapped it and went back to the drawing board (Google Sketchup in this case). I figured that since the midrange trim rings came out so great (see pic below), that I'd carry the theme over and make some midbass-size trim rings, and go with a simple MDF ring underneath to space it off from the baffle.










And here's what I came up with:










The trim rings are 3d printed on a sintered laser machine, which is done by a company called Shapeways.com. Like the midrange trim rings, the material is strong flexible plastic that I will spray with black primer and cover with chrome vinyl wrap. The instant quote for the rings came back at $33.00 for each ring (not bad when you consider what it would be to machine them from aluminum!). I've already got a roll of the chrome vinyl wrap. So all in all, they're only about twice the cost of the "official" Hybrid Audio L6SE grills, which to me (sorry Scott!), look like crap.

Oh. And I decided that the Hybrid logo was a bit much. Maybe if they ever sponsored me or something, but I doubt that will ever happen.


----------



## req

im looking into 3d printing very closely for some future projects... i already have some awesome ideas - i cant wait to see how these turn out for you

shapeways is really cheap too


----------



## ecbmxer

Do they actually print the grill part as well or just the ring and then you mount the grill to the backside?


----------



## Neil_J

ecbmxer said:


> Do they actually print the grill part as well or just the ring and then you mount the grill to the backside?


The mesh was purchased from McMaster Carr, and it's press-fit and glued/melted into place. Ill see if I can dig up a pic later tonight..


----------



## papasin

Neil_J said:


> Upgrades are in order for the Alpine H800 processor. The crappy JRC opamps are getting replaced with some high-quality Texas Instruments SoundPlus (TM) JFET-input OPA1642's. I can't take credit for the idea, there was a guy in the H800 thread that tried the exact same opamps and reported that it made an audible difference. The only thing I'm terribly concerned about is lowering the noise floor. I'm not one to debate "sonic qualities" of part A vs part B, when a 3 dB change on a peaking filter would have more of a difference.


Definitely let us know how this goes. Consider me very interested, and would possibly do it to up to four H800s (or more specifically have Linda do it) .


----------



## huuge

Those pillars look like the could have been a factory option. Nice work.


----------



## Neil_J

papasin said:


> Definitely let us know how this goes. Consider me very interested, and would possibly do it to up to four H800s (or more specifically have Linda do it) .


Wow, that's like 200 dollars in opamps  

Ill definitely let you know how much, if any, it improves the audio quality.


----------



## papasin

Neil_J said:


> Wow, that's like 200 dollars in opamps
> 
> Ill definitely let you know how much, if any, it improves the audio quality.


True, but if there's a noticeable improvement, @ $50 per vehicle and considering what we all have invested on our builds already, it's basically a drop in the proverbial bucket .


----------



## Neil_J

papasin said:


> True, but if there's a noticeable improvement, @ $50 per vehicle and considering what we all have invested on our builds already, it's basically a drop in the proverbial bucket .


I wish I had two H800's or a way to go back and forth between both opamps quickly. Unfortunately I can't just do the left and switch between left/right, as the opamps are two per chip which I assume means channels 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, and 7/8.


----------



## papasin

Neil_J said:


> I wish I had two H800's or a way to go back and forth between both opamps quickly. Unfortunately I can't just do the left and switch between left/right, as the opamps are two per chip which I assume means channels 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, and 7/8.


Would you be able to upgrade 1/2 standalone, and then compare it with 3/4 and move say your 3s between the pairs to do an A/B?


----------



## Neil_J

papasin said:


> Would you be able to upgrade 1/2 standalone, and then compare it with 3/4 and move say your 3s between the pairs to do an A/B?


I guess if I made channels 1/2 and 3/4 have identical crossover points that it would work. I might try to wire up a relay or something so that I can switch back and forth as quick as I want. My auditory memory kinda sucks compared to a lot of the golden ears around here. But if it's back to back I can spot stuff out a lot easier. I'll try to do it ABX as well so that my opinions aren't biasing the judging process.

I didn't want to turn this into a science experiment, but I guess it has anyway  Oh well. Science is fun.


----------



## sydmonster

Hope your in better health soon... 

Likewise thank you and hope you can share some feedback on your H800 op-amp tweeks.


----------



## Chaos

I am impressed by the amount of effort that you have put into this build, and the time that you have taken to share the experience here. The A-pillar pods appear to match the OEM finishes quite well, and of course that amp rack is a phenomenal piece of work.

No matter what I read about or how many cars I hear in person, I can never understand why some people have such issues with aiming on-axis like that. Yeah, I know, I know - some speakers are _designed_ for off-axis dispersion, but it has always made more sense to me that aiming loudspeakers directly towards the audience generally provides the most favorable (and tunable) frequency response. I saw a comment by Req a few pages back stating that reflections (particularly the pasenger side speakers against the driver side window) cause us more fundamental trouble than almost anything else in autosound. That being the case, I can see why those pods are working so well for you. Nice work.


----------



## Neil_J

*Q*



Chaos said:


> I am impressed by the amount of effort that you have put into this build, and the time that you have taken to share the experience here. The A-pillar pods appear to match the OEM finishes quite well, and of course that amp rack is a phenomenal piece of work.
> 
> No matter what I read about or how many cars I hear in person, I can never understand why some people have such issues with aiming on-axis like that. Yeah, I know, I know - some speakers are _designed_ for off-axis dispersion, but it has always made more sense to me that aiming loudspeakers directly towards the audience generally provides the most favorable (and tunable) frequency response. I saw a comment by Req a few pages back stating that reflections (particularly the pasenger side speakers against the driver side window) cause us more fundamental trouble than almost anything else in autosound. That being the case, I can see why those pods are working so well for you. Nice work.


Thanks and I completely agree with your comments on the on-axis stuff. I'll never go back (unless I win the lottery, and I can mount them deep in the dash/engine compartment like Mark E and Todd/Highly). I really wonder why there's not more installs out there with directly-on axis relative to the driver's seat. I do know that it's a hell of a lot easier to fabricate symmetrical pillars, and I've definitely caught a good bit of conflicting information from current and past SQ competetors being disseminated here -- Andy Wehmeyer being one of them -- still don't agree with that guy one bit, no matter how much cred he has around here  I will say though that all installations are different, it's all about tradeoffs, and in my case it worked. That's all that I can say.

I will also say that I was expecting more comments on my pods but I guess with the way it lined up with MECA/IASCA finals, it just got lost in the noise. Most of the "regulars" around here were driving hundreds of miles to finals and back. I just can't wait until I get the matching midbass grilles done. Should have that done in the next week or so, fingers crossed.


----------



## strakele

Looking good Neil. I hope I get to hear it again after all the changes. Nice job on the pillars.


----------



## Deadpool_25

*Re: Q*



Neil_J said:


> I will also say that I was expecting more comments on my pods...


Well, I have been watching this thread and can say that I love the pods. You did a wonderful job with them.

And the amp rack is just amazing. I'm still working my plan out but I can say that the amp rack I have in my head is a mix between yours (LED lighting) and the Hybrid Audio G35 (basic layout). I plan on running wires more conventionally and am trying to figure out how to replicate the basic look you achieved with the LEDs highlighting each cable. It wouldn't be so tough but the RCAs are a bit harder to figure out since their barrels are larger than the cables and I'd rather not desolder and resolder them. I have a couple of ideas, but we'll see.

Anyway, great work. I'm enjoying following your build.


----------



## Neil_J

*Re: Q*



Deadpool_25 said:


> It wouldn't be so tough but the RCAs are a bit harder to figure out since their barrels are larger than the cables and I'd rather not desolder and resolder them.


I made my own cables, it worked out a lot better that way. It's not really that hard to do as long as you use heat shrink get all the stripped lengths right. I highly recommend the Rean NYS373 RCA plugs, regular microphone cable in whatever color suits your build, and techflex. I went with the Canare Star Quad microphone cable and it was a PITA to work with. But the red cable with carbon techflex is just dead sexy


----------



## Neil_J

The L6SE midbass trim rings showed up from Shapeways today. 










I freaking love living in the future. I literally thought this design up out of my brain on the 23rd of October. Ordered it on the 25th. Some laser beams and robotic stuff made it out of a pile of plastic dust. And it is now in my hands on the 30th. I mean, yea there's 1984-style government spying with a hint of Brave New World-style dystopia, but.. but.. I can dream up some crazy design and create it from thin air, just like a Star Trek replicator! Actually I think I'd rather go back to living like a luddite sometimes. Life were a lot simpler back in those days.



















Notice the "lightning holes" on the shot above. That saved me 3 dollars. When you upload a design to Shapeways, they price it by volume. Obviously the trick is to make it light but not too light that it becomes weak and brittle. 





































The Avery Conform vinyl wrap was purchased from Amazon.com in small pieces: Avery Conform Chrome Vinyl Car Wrap Film Sheet - SF100-843-S 1ft x 1ft (12" x 12") (1 Sq/Ft) : Amazon.com : Automotive

So these will be fabricated just like the midrange rings were done. Prime and sand the 3d printed trim rings. Repeat until nice and smooth. Wrap with the Avery chrome vinyl wrap using a heat gun, a razor blade, and some patience. Repeat until it looks legit. Then install along with the MDF rings that go below it. The MDF rings will be painted with black truck bed liner to match the pillars, most likely. That or plasti-dip. We'll see.


----------



## SkizeR

niiiice


----------



## ECLIPSEsqfan

Nicely done Neil. 

Not to go too OT here and if you want my question removed then please say so.

My question was; Do you ever use Autodesk Inventor? It has an incredibly versatile interface that is intuitive as well. Makes for very short work in crating 3D models/prints.
I use it all the time for prototyping work for clients and it has served me well. Just curiosity on my part. Doing a standard 2D dwg works just as well.

Sidenote: I have a still new never commissioned Huxley 3d printer just sitting in my garage. Wish I would have found this thread sooner. I would have gladly sent it your way to aid you in tinkering with your ideas. 

Keep up the fantastic work and thank you again for sharing.
- Mario


----------



## makunetsumaru

nice build bro


----------



## Neil_J

ECLIPSEsqfan said:


> Nicely done Neil.
> 
> Not to go too OT here and if you want my question removed then please say so.
> 
> My question was; Do you ever use Autodesk Inventor? It has an incredibly versatile interface that is intuitive as well. Makes for very short work in crating 3D models/prints.
> I use it all the time for prototyping work for clients and it has served me well. Just curiosity on my part. Doing a standard 2D dwg works just as well.
> 
> Sidenote: I have a still new never commissioned Huxley 3d printer just sitting in my garage. Wish I would have found this thread sooner. I would have gladly sent it your way to aid you in tinkering with your ideas.
> 
> Keep up the fantastic work and thank you again for sharing.
> - Mario


I've never used Autodesk Inventor. I hear it's nice but have never got a chance to use it. I've used Solidworks, Alibre Design, Google Sketchup, and Autocad for 2D stuff. Solidworks is great but it's Windows only and I can't afford it. And Autocad's a dinosaur but I still find myself using the free OSX student version because it's often convenient for certain types of work. Google Sketchup is a little hard to get used to, but it's free and has decent import/export. And it works on my MacBook without dual booting. But it's not so great with mechanical design as it's not parametric like Solidworks and others. 

Such is the world of CAD. 

BTW, totally jealous of your 3d printer. I need to get me one of those bad.


----------



## ECLIPSEsqfan

Inventor is a nifty program for sure. Sadly, I believe it is only run in a Windows environment. 
Hey man, if you are interested in the printer, drop me a PM. Like I said, it's never been commissioned and would be great for someone who enjoys tinkering. 

Seeing your build was truly a pleasure Neil. I look forward to seeing what it morphs into.
- Mario


----------



## Neil_J

ECLIPSEsqfan said:


> Inventor is a nifty program for sure. Sadly, I believe it is only run in a Windows environment.
> Hey man, if you are interested in the printer, drop me a PM. Like I said, it's never been commissioned and would be great for someone who enjoys tinkering.
> 
> Seeing your build was truly a pleasure Neil. I look forward to seeing what it morphs into.
> - Mario


PM sent. And thanks again for the kind words.


----------



## Neil_J

I'm starting the process of modding my Alpine H800 processor. As mentioned earlier, I'm replacing the stock JRC opamps with Texas Instruments OPA1642's. 
































































Here's my first reactions:

(1) Holy crap! Poly capacitors all throughout the input and output stage (either Polyphenylene Sulfide, polyester, or polypropylene). Nice! These cost quite a bit more than ceramic caps but they've got a much better "sonic signature". Very cool that the Alpine engineers were able to get this by the finance dept., and weird that they're not boasting about it at all in their marketing specs.

(2) Holy crap! TWO Analog Devices ADSP-21365 SHARC digital signal processors! Again... Not skimping around here. 333MHz /1.8 GFLOPs SIMD SHARC core supporting IEEE 32-bit floating-point, 40-bit floating-point and 32-bit fixed-point data types.

(3) Holy crap! Wolfson WM8742 DAC's. Ok. These aren't exactly "the best" but they're not crap either. Eh. I can't complain 

(4) Holy crap! A Cirrus Logic CS3308 8-channel digital volume control chip! Looks like they're using it on the outputs, between the opamp gain stages. This means that when you specify the gain, rather than just scaling the DAC output and losing bit resolution, you get to keep the resolution and the volume control chip is responsible for decreasing the gain. I like it.

(5) Crap! The whole board is covered in conformal coat of some type. I've had a lot of experience removing conformal coat... but not this particular type. At the last two companies I worked at, they used this soft, rubbery, spongy stuff that came off pretty easy with simple solvents. This stuff is pretty resilient. Let's see what the internet says about how do deal with this stuff:




























Flowchart time: 
Is it soft/rubbery? Nope! 
Is there a reaction to alcohol? NOpe!
Does the coating have a noticeable reaction to heat? Not really. It does melt but takes a while.
If no, then type is likely Paraxylyene.
If yes, does the reaction form a white powder? No. Polyurethane.

So it's either polyurethane or paraxylyene. Or maybe it was a bit spongy now that I think about it. Which might make it silicone resin. It's got sort of a blue tint but there are a lot of blue-tinted conformal coats out there so that doesn't really narrow it down. Either way, it looks like the removal method is: (1) thermal. (2) grinding and scraping. (3) Micro blasting. I don't have a micro blaster handy so I'll try the hot air rework station and a razor blade and see what happens. It melts but it's pretty damn difficult to actually "remove" it from the board. I tried acetone and that made a dent but just barely. Screw it, just get the damn opamps off the board and we'll worry about it later. 7 out of 8 were removed ok. The 8th one I almost ripped one of the copper pads off the board. Whoops. Gotta be more careful. OK. Now that the opamps are off the board, guess that the acetone is sorta removing it. Guess that means it wasn't polyurethane or paraxylyene after all. After playing around with it for a while.. It's silicone. Definitely silicone. And the acetone works as long as you're patient. Wait.. The poly caps next to the opamps? They sorta look a bit melted after the SMT rework! Oh god! Oh my god! <panic ensues>. Ok calm down. Maybe you didn't ruin it. Crap. It's almost 1:00 am. Will have to till tomorrow to see if it still works.

Picture after the modification:









This stream-of-consciousness play-by-play brought to you by: 

Red Bull. Red Bull gives you wings.


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## strakele

Just furthers my assertion that Red Bull enables everything cool that happens in the world.

Interested to see if you can actually tell a difference after all the work.


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## papasin

Enjoy the play by play. Looking forward to the power up.


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## ansuser

Neil_J said:


> I'm starting the process of modding my Alpine H800 processor. As mentioned earlier, I'm replacing the stock JRC opamps with Texas Instruments OPA1642's.


Cool stuff! 

Have you measured (S/N, THD etc.) the unit before mod? Are going to measure it after?

Another question: I always wondered how Alpine processor units deal with optical input signal of different sampling rate. How many quartz clocks are on the board? Can you identify them?

P.S. I've got JBL MS-8 mod in the process (have sent it to professional). Mod includes input/output opamps, analog/digital power filtration. As soon as it completed, I'll show some details in appropriate thread


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## optimaprime

Where the hell did you go to school? Mad science university ?


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## req

pictures dont work anymore ;(


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## JayinMI

They work for me.

Jay


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## Neil_J

optimaprime said:


> Where the hell did you go to school? Mad science university ?


I'm a college dropout


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## Neil_J

ansuser said:


> Have you measured (S/N, THD etc.) the unit before mod? Are going to measure it after?
> 
> Another question: I always wondered how Alpine processor units deal with optical input signal of different sampling rate. How many quartz clocks are on the board? Can you identify them?


Unfortunately I didn't have time to measure it before or after. As to the second question, not really sure, I've already got it all sealed up. But I'll say I'm damn impressed with the quality, much more so than any previous DSP I've owned.


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## optimaprime

I am still paying for school that kinda got me my job. Bareilly


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## Neil_J

Status on the H800 opamp mod: The midbass (#3 and #4) and the sub (#7) channels sound great! The midrange/tweet channels (#1 and #2) sound extremely quiet! Like there's nothing coming out of the speakers. Hmm. No big deal. I'll pull it out of the car and look at it under the stereo microscope. Those pins are freaking TINY (see pic below), likely the solder didn't flow below the leg. I'm not worried yet.

Again, this mod is NOT for the faint of heart. I wouldn't recommend anyone do it that wasn't well equipped to do SMT rework and had the skill to back it up.










Other stuff I got accomplished this weekend:


I removed a few pounds of dead cabling that used to go the second amp rack assembly, and shortened some cables so they're not rattling around. There are still a ton of wires running around but they're at least secured and tied down now, and aren't longer than necessary.

Second, I got the LED lights working (they've been dormant for about a year as I was working on more important things). The CarPC was supposed to be responsible for sequencing the LEDs, and the microprocessors under the amp rack were just slaves that received the commands and passed them to the LEDs. Now that I've gone with a simpler setup, it made the code and interfacing a few orders of magnitude easier to work with, and the speed bottleneck has been removed. The lights are super fast and instantaneous now which is very, very cool. I also hard-wired the LEDs to a toggle switch located on the aluminum extrusion on the right hand side. The CarPC used to send a command to make the amp racks "wake up" and start sending the LEDs. I had some weird issues with my power saving circuit that I never figured out. But this way is much, much more robust, so I'm cool with it. I can always throw a relay in or something to have it start the LED chasing when the trunk is opened, or maybe a keychain remote control.




























So the red cables are the custom RCA's. You can see how short they are, which keeps the noise floor down to near zero. The copper cables are the speaker wires (12 AWG for midbasses and subs, and 16 AWG for the mids. There's a black RJ45 cable between the custom circuit boards, that's the umbilical cord between the LED controllers. All the LED wiring is 22 AWG hobby servo wire. Oh, and the power cable is 10 AWG silicone hobby grade stuff normally used in RC. Yea 10 AWG is a little skimpy but I had to get it through the VPC mass interconnect. And it's only two feet or so before it goes to a 1/0 AWG distribution block.










Above is the on/off switch for the LEDs.











The little module above is the +170 volt DC power supply for the nixie tubes  It's only used when the above switch is flipped on, which will get flipped off before SQ listening, to prevent a loss of Ess Queue's.


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## Neil_J

Another quick post.. I had to redo the wiring through the door jamb last week (didn't get a chance to post them until now). I was still getting weird distortion out of my right midbass. It was a really nasty sound that occurred mostly during powerful bass drum beats. But it didn't sound like amp clipping. It seemed be based more on overall power, and only got bad after being cranked up for a while. I finally took a hunch and figured that if it was a bad connection somewhere, that the weak link had to be the door jamb. Two years ago, I decided to use the stock pins which were way undersized. The weird thing was, that my doors rattled so bad, I just reduced my gains and never had a problem. Now that my doors have been dampened to hell and back, it's finally putting enough current through the connector where it's heating up and not able to pass the current on heavy transients. What I should have done was just drill the connector out and pass the 12 AWG speaker wire right through the stock connector. 

Old:









New:






































And yep, sure enough, most of my midbass issues have been cured. Now I can crank them up, and it sounds like my problem now is that they're bottoming out. I think that means that I'm using 100% of my midbasses now. I guess that's a good problem to have, considering that I can't go to bigger midbasses. It does get damn loud. Would be nice if it got louder but I guess I'm happy. I mean, they're 6's after all


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## Neil_J

ansuser said:


> Another question: I always wondered how Alpine processor units deal with optical input signal of different sampling rate. How many quartz clocks are on the board? Can you identify them?


Now that I had to take the H800 to fix Channel 1 and 2, I think I can better answer your question. The SPDIF is sent to an AK4117 chip. I believe it has synchronous resampling circuitry to handle rates supposedly up to 192 kHz. I see two clocks, a small one by the AK4117, and a larger shared clock between the two Analog Devices SHARC DSP's. I can't make out the frequencies even underneath my 4.5x stereo microscope. The laser etching on them is very light and gets distorted by the conformal coat. Hope this answers your questions.


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## ansuser

Neil_J said:


> Now that I had to take the H800 to fix Channel 1 and 2, I think I can better answer your question. The SPDIF is sent to an AK4117 chip. I believe it has synchronous resampling circuitry to handle rates supposedly up to 192 kHz. I see two clocks, a small one by the AK4117, and a larger shared clock between the two Analog Devices SHARC DSP's. I can't make out the frequencies even underneath my 4.5x stereo microscope. The laser etching on them is very light and gets distorted by the conformal coat. Hope this answers your questions.


Thanks. 

In MS8 there is only one quartz clock (which is good for jitter rejection in ADC-DSP-DAC chain) and it's frequency is divisible by 48 kHz (which is not good as it makes digital input mod worthless ). 

Good luck with H800!


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## Neil_J

So I've been listening to the modern H800 for a day now, and it definitely doesn't sound worse. Then I heard a bit of static on the right mid and it seemed like the gain dropped a bit. So I ripped it back out of the car, amp rack and all (thank god for the quick disconnect that I put in), and ran it through RightMark Audio Analyzer. 

Surprisingly, everything looks good! Obviously I don't have the "before" to compare to the "after". But I didn't screw it up, which is reassuring. 

If I get the noise again, I'll start wiggling RCA connectors and wires to see if that was it all along.


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## Noobdelux

hey i was just wondering what you have left over : )


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## Golden Ear

Hi Neil! I've been slowly reading this bl for about the last 3 weeks and I want to echo everyone else's sentiments on what an amazing job you've done on the car. All the custom touches really make this an amazing build. You are the epitome of a DIYer. I'm sure you're not done with the car and might never be so I'm subbing for updates


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## luisc202

Man Neil your build is pretty awesome. The amp rack is pretty slick.


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## Neil_J

For anyone that's been wondering what I've been up to for the last eight months, I wrote a detailed post over in the off-topic section:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/166992-im-building-robot-army-beat-chinese.html


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## dogstar

I've been reading this log since I bought my clubman in October and I've learned a lot about the Mini and audio in general, thanks for all the information you've shared, you've done a heck of a job and the finished install looks great.

I notice that you've pulled the factory head unit and replaced it with an Alpine unit, I may have missed you mentioning it but did that cause any problems with the onboard computer display in the tach?
Or did you do the stuff-it-behind-the-speedo trick?
It seems like some years of Mini don't care if the deck is present as it only controls the OBC display in the speedo and other years have all the OBC functions running through the cd portion of the head.

Also, I see I'm too late to help with the midbass grills but if you ever need any laser cutting feel free to send a PM. I can cut aluminum trim or mounting panels very cheap and shipping for something small wouldn't be much. For example the toggle switch mount on your aluminum extrusion or the hybrid logo you had originally envisioned for the midbass grills.

The original grill ring design looks pretty simple to fabricate, I see a couple chamfers and some stepped holes, a decent hand at a router table probably could have turned those out for you, perhaps in the future try contacting your local woodworking club/guild, old farts LOVE to show off their woodworking equipment.


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## JayinMI

Wow. What's up, Dogstar? Been a while since I've seen you on here. Seems like we both moved on from the Genesis to small hatchbacks. Lol


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## dogstar

JayinMI said:


> Wow. What's up, Dogstar? Been a while since I've seen you on here. Seems like we both moved on from the Genesis to small hatchbacks. Lol


Hey bud, life moved on and it's keep up or get left behind 

You've got PM


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## jeffbeckhudd

Not to revive an old thread... But I just read thru this thing and good god Damn. I'm currently chomping at the bit to begin work on my 2013 clubman. Quick question, did you upgrade your electrical? Batteries, alternator, big 3?

And in case you're wondering... I currently have planned... From the stock head unit, into audio control LC7i, into audio control epicenter in dash, into audio control three.2, into audio control EQS, into 2 Audio Control 6xs, into 2 Massive Audio nx5 and 1 massive audio n4, into 2 pair of massive audio rk6 without the passive crossovers, 2 Massive Audio lx4, 2 Massive Audio summo 64, and 1 massive audio hippo 122.


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## req

just fyi jeff, neil has not been actively posting on the forum for around a year other than selling a lot of his audio stuff like his aluminum pods and sub enclosure. he is developing a 3D printer that does not slew the conventional way.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/166992-im-building-robot-army-beat-chinese.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...58-fs-hybrid-audio-l1-pros-aluminum-pods.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ofer-enclosure-mini-cooper-r56-hatchback.html


sad times. neil is a very cool dude.


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## dasadi

Is there an online resources for AutoCAD files, or technical drawings, for certain amps? I am interested in the JL Audio XD600.


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## brainbot1

im going through a very similar install on a 2010 and would like to see your photos. anyway you could link the files besides photobucket since photobucket doesnt work anymore?


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## JayinMI

Neil hasn't been on here in years, as mentioned a couple posts above. 
Chances aren't good.

Jay


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## scooterfrog

sbeezy said:


> No i think they should keep the speedo (thats a mini trademark) but keep the HU completely separated from the ECU/K-bus system so buyers and enthusiasts can change the deck without having to buy a 400mm ribbon cable and relocating the stock one to behind the speedo


GOD DAMN where can i get the right ribbon cable for a 2012 cooper s with HK.
i am using the stock signal (front) to a rockford dsr1 for active 3 way front stage and sub.
jl 300/4 jl 300/2 and 500/1


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## zwingtip

scooterfrog said:


> GOD DAMN where can i get the right ribbon cable for a 2012 cooper s with HK.
> i am using the stock signal (front) to a rockford dsr1 for active 3 way front stage and sub.
> jl 300/4 jl 300/2 and 500/1


There's a thread over on NAM 2007 Double Din Install - North American Motoring that has specs on ribbon cables. I'm about to try the same thing. I took every possible combination of specs listed in the thread and ordered them all from a Chinese seller on eBay: superiorbuy2014 on eBay They combine shipping and the cables themselves are like $1


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