# Screws, Glue, or Liquid Nails?



## jf2oo6 (Feb 17, 2010)

These 3 things are what I have available to assemble my box. Just wondering if I should use just glue or liquid nails, and no screws? Or with screws? Also please keep in mind that I dont have any clamps. So if I use liquid nails or glue it will just have to dry on its own. 

The way I did my other box was glue in between the pieces, screwed them together, then ran a bead of liquid nails on the inside of where all the pieces met just to seal it up. 

So should I go with the same method again? What do you guys think.


----------



## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

If i had no clamps, i would glue and then screw spacing them about 5" or so each. The screws would help "pull" the pieces together acting as a clamp.

You dont even need to counter sink them if you don't want. Just pre-drill a hole, and use 1 5/8" drywall screws to hold everything together. Then once it is dry, take the screws out and patch the holes unless you are carpeting then dont worry about it. 

But by the way, what subs are you putting in your box? Some subs might need some extra help structural wise.


----------



## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Liquid nails and drywall screws have been used since the dawn of time to build boxes so you are not going wrong by doing it, though some prefer not to use it for whatever reasons they have.


----------



## jf2oo6 (Feb 17, 2010)

One 12" IA Flatlyne is going in. The box is about 1.35 cubes inside volume. And Im not too worried about how the box will look as it wont be seen. It will be behind a beauty wall. I just really want it sealed up really good.


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

box builder POUND THAT SOUND uses both screws + glue. he claims that glue only joints failed @ the seam[glue only] vs. beside the seam with glue & screws.

EDIT> the results were achieved from destructive testing


----------



## jf2oo6 (Feb 17, 2010)

ok so it seems like you guys think screws are the way to go. So liquid nails or glue?


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

liquid nails fills gaps.... your carpentry skills will dictate what you should use


----------



## jf2oo6 (Feb 17, 2010)

Well my supplies are very limited and the table saw I used for the cuts was far to small for the job. Even had to free hand one of the edge. But it all came out pretty close. 

But yea I guess it sounds like I should stick to the liquid nails huh.


----------



## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

I have had screws pull out. I have had crappy wood glue seams break. I have never had good wood glue give up a bond. Glue + Clamps if I have time, Glue + Screws if I need to go fast. As stated above, screws hold the wood together for the chemical bond of the glue.

The liquid nails or silicone to seal the seams is a good idea, especially if your cuts/seams are not tight.


----------



## jf2oo6 (Feb 17, 2010)

el_chupo_ said:


> I have had screws pull out. I have had crappy wood glue seams break. I have never had good wood glue give up a bond. Glue + Clamps if I have time, Glue + Screws if I need to go fast. As stated above, screws hold the wood together for the chemical bond of the glue.
> 
> The liquid nails or silicone to seal the seams is a good idea, especially if your cuts/seams are not tight.


So you say glue and screws to hold the pieces together, and then liquid nails for the seams?


----------



## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

That would pretty much make a fail safe box, its about how i did mine
I used the flexible contruction adhesive with screws, then sealed inside and outside with a wood sealent. Mine arent coming apart nor leaking.


----------



## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

jf2oo6 said:


> So you say glue and screws to hold the pieces together, and then liquid nails for the seams?


Standard wood glue for mdf.
Course thread drywall screws, 1 5/8".
Predrill the holes, with out pre drilling, you may expanded and break the mdf. Counter sink for the screw heads, stops expansion there also.
If you have voids to fill, use standard wood glue and that MDF dust you now have all over the place. Make a paste.
If you still want more in the corners do a little liquid nails.
I've never had a glue joint fail, if done correctly, it's stronger than the wood itself. Use enough to ensure a good joint. It should squeeze out and wipe off the excess. Always allow 24hrs for it to dry before putting any stress on it.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I like gorilla grip...and brad nails.

6 of one half dozen of the other.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I've used liquid nails with screws in the past to hold enclosures together. Without the screws, liquid nails didn't hold the MDF together very well.

Lately, I have been using birch, titebond, and screws. That works well!


----------



## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> I've used liquid nails with screws in the past to hold enclosures together. Without the screws, liquid nails didn't hold the MDF together very well.
> 
> Lately, I have been using birch, titebond, and screws. That works well!


Liquid nails is good for large surfaces, the 3/4 edge of the lumber doesn't seem to do very well in my book, Plus it takes a long time to cure and doesn't flow into the grain as well.

If you are in the area take a look at Acadian Hard wood in Rose City for your cabinet grade plys. Very good prices and lots of hard woods.

If you like the birch, try a Kreg jig, I use mine a lot now. On a decent size cabinet it works great and you can hide the screws inside very easy.
I still clamp for the most part, I have a clamp rack with anything you could ever want, well almost.


----------



## jimmy154 (Jul 26, 2009)

I don't like the concept of screws or nails. Also screws always split MDF in my experiece, unless the hole you predrill is too big, then they don't hold well. You can use tape or straps instead of clamps most of the time. I don't use liquid nail or PL construction adhesive for wood glue unless the surfaces being glue are not touching by more than .5 mm space.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ChrisB said:


> Lately, I have been using birch, titebond, and screws. That works well!


Absolutely.


----------



## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

jimmy154 said:


> screws always split MDF in my experiece, unless the hole you predrill is too big, then they don't hold well.


If you use a 3/32 inch drill bit and standard coarse 1-5/8" drywall screws, 3/4 MDF will not split. If it is, you are doing something wrong. I've used this method for years, and had nothing but GREAT results.

If you don't have clamps of some sort, YOU MUST use drywall screws. The drywall screw acts as a clamp applying pressure to the seam while the glue dries. 

Without clamping force of some sort, the glue will never adhere the two pieces correctly, and you'll be left with a leaky, structurally unsound enclosure. 

I've found that nails alone (fired from my porter cable finish nailer) cannot provide enough clamping force for the glue to adhere correctly. 

My current method of assembly is that I first assemble the box using Titebond II and my trim nailer, then put as many clamps per edge as I can fit while the glue sets up.


----------



## thechainrule (Feb 2, 2010)

On every box ive ever made ive used all three. Glue and screws to hold everything together. I cant imagine building a box without screws, my carpentry skills are not Jedi and I certainly dont have the patience. I use liquid nails along all of the interior edges, terminal blocks or any area that is imperfect.


----------



## jimmy154 (Jul 26, 2009)

DaveRulz said:


> If you use a 3/32 inch drill bit and standard coarse 1-5/8" drywall screws, 3/4 MDF will not split. If it is, you are doing something wrong. I've used this method for years, and had nothing but GREAT results.


Even with size 6 drywall screws and 3/32" hole I have had MDF split. Not all MDF is the same. Maybe that was my problem. Also unless it's really bad you don't know the MDF split unless you take it apart. I just don't like screws or nails. It's a easily, simple, cheap and sloppy way to put something together in my opinion. 



DaveRulz said:


> If you don't have clamps of some sort, YOU MUST use drywall screws. The drywall screw acts as a clamp applying pressure to the seam while the glue dries.


So if I understand this correctly, clamps and screws are the only things that can apply pressure? I recommended the use of tape or straps, if you don't have clamps. Or screws, they just don't tickle my pickle, if you will 

You don't have to go nuts, you're box is going to have to hold to air at pressures slightly higher and lower than one atmosphere. The edges don't move the middle of the box will. But if you want you can tape or strap the box so much that it has the same pressure on the joints as if you used clamps.

Two 12's with one way xmax of ~12 mm move about a liter of air, changing a 50 liter box pressure by about 1/50th of an atmosphere or .29 PSI. That's 42 pounds of pressure on a 12 x 12 inch piece. You could glue that box with primer and it would hold together, lol


----------



## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

jimmy154 said:


> Even with size 6 drywall screws and 3/32" hole I have had MDF split. Not all MDF is the same. Maybe that was my problem. Also unless it's really bad you don't know the MDF split unless you take it apart. I just don't like screws or nails. It's a easily, simple, cheap and sloppy way to put something together in my opinion.


Must have been some cheap MDF, I've never had a problem unless I had the wrong drill bit or was being lazy. You are right though, the MDF that the major home stores carry does vary in quality, I have noticed this when cutting. I agree that there are better methods of joinery than using a butt joint and mechanical fastener, but I would not go so far to say that it is a sloppy method of construction. Easy? Cheap? Simple? Yeah, I'd agree with that, and I see no problem with any of that so long as it's effective, which it is. We'd all love to be using rabbits, dadoes etc, but that type of construction takes a considerable amount more of both time and planning to pull off. 

As was alluded to by AmitaF, it's been proven that a box with screws or some other mechanical fastener in it is more resistant to coming apart than one with just glue. Yes, the glue forms a bond that is stronger than the substrate, but on the ends, MDF is not very strong, and peeling a layer of it off is just as easy as splitting it with a screw straight into the end grain without predrilling. The mechanical fastener running through the joint provides resistance to lateral loads that is simply not there if you only glue (if you use dadoes its another story)


jimmy154 said:


> So if I understand this correctly, clamps and screws are the only things that can apply pressure? I recommended the use of tape or straps, if you don't have clamps. Or screws, they just don't tickle my pickle, if you will
> You don't have to go nuts, you're box is going to have to hold to air at pressures slightly higher and lower than one atmosphere. The edges don't move the middle of the box will. But if you want you can tape or strap the box so much that it has the same pressure on the joints as if you used clamps.
> 
> Two 12's with one way xmax of ~12 mm move about a liter of air, changing a 50 liter box pressure by about 1/50th of an atmosphere or .29 PSI. That's 42 pounds of pressure on a 12 x 12 inch piece. You could glue that box with primer and it would hold together, lol


I said clamps of some sort, that includes strap clamps, it needs to physically squeeze the box. You showed some interesting math, but there are other things going on besides the amount of pressure a subwoofer can exert. For example, the fact that most boxes get jostled around and take a lot of abuse in the trunk of a car. According to TitebondII you need between 100 and 250 pounds per square inch (depending on type of wood) of clamping pressure along the joint to ensure a good bond. Short of parking my 1975 Allis Chalmers garden tractor, on top of the box, I don't think I have enough weight laying around to sufficiently clamp a 36 inch edge. Meanwhile, I could use a handful of drywall screws, or a series of bar clamps, or a strap as you mentioned; it doesn't matter, but you need something pressing that wood together. Out of curiosity, how do you apply 250PSI with tape?

I'd prefer to OVERBUILD anything that has to do with my stereo, as do many. I openly welcome you to build a box and glue it with primer, then report back the results you get. I just hope you don't accidentally bang it on something and have it fall apart on you!

As I mentioned, nails are horrible in MDF, they pull right out and apply literally no pressure. But I use them to locate all the panels flush, then let the clamps do their job. That saves a lot of frustration with trying to get joints flush, and also saves time by allowing me to assemble and clamp as one assembly vs several sub assemblies. It helps that the house I just purchased has a full woodshop in the basement complete with a complement of hand tools, A nice big cast iron atlas table saw and 100's (no exaggeration!) of clamps

I'm not trying to be a dick here (although sometimes I play one on TV....what?) Just having an interesting conversation on woodworking. Hope you're not taking offense to my replies.

Dave


----------



## jimmy154 (Jul 26, 2009)

DaveRulz said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick here


I am. You wanna wrestle, lol 

Seriously though folks, do not eat corn syrup no matter what the tv tells you :surprised:

As far as boxes for woofers go, you can forget about those. Just spend all your time preparing for the economic collapse :laugh:


----------



## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

I already put on my unitard and greased myself up......errrrrr >_> <_< >_>


----------



## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

I build just as Dave does and have no problems, but, if your having problem getting a 4X8 sheet to the size you can work with, most big chain stores can make your first few cuts, normally for free. Hell, I've gone as far when building a squared up enclosure, as bringing my cut list with me and having them make all my cuts. Just easier, especially when I don't have my truck.


----------



## passtim (Sep 30, 2009)

Nice angle strap clamps!! Have to get me some


----------



## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

I say hand cut dove tails and Titebond II or III is the ONLY way to go. Anything less and you're just LAZY. Screws, pah! 

But really, you need some way to clamp. Even though screws will hold it together while the glue cures, I find it helpful to clamp things up as a test fit/dry run and to do all the pre-drilling. Then it all goes back together smoothly after you spread the glue.

- D


----------



## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

The band clamps are awesome. Lowes carries them and I would imagine Home Depot as well.

Sorry guys, if you aren't using biscuits - you suck! LOL JK

I like using biscuits with Titebond glue. Clamp and you are done. On large boxes I will add screws as well, where I can't get clamps to work. 

For the insides I "caulk" the seams with Liquid Nails or equivalent. Probably any caulking product would be just fine though (like acrylic latex)... In theory this is an overkill step and not really needed if the box was glued correctly anyway.


----------

