# Seeking advice on 1st build with PA & Horns



## THUMOS

I just built my first system over Christmas and I've had enough time to realize it is not what I want. I had amplifiers everywhere with Ground Zero 12's in the back, Exodus Anarchies in the doors, 4 x 2" arrayed mids in the A-pillars and 2 Polk 4X6 coaxes as my center (JBL MS-8 processor). It was great for bumping, but none could keep pace with double bass kickdrums. I'll be 40 this year, and I want loud but loud SQ!

I'm posting this here because I've been stalking this part of the forum a while, and you guys like what I like. I actually found this place from following MattyJman's Camaro build on Cam5 (I have a 2SS, but can't stomach cutting into the quarter panels like he did--yeah, I'm scared). I like loud, live sound. I like metal. King Diamond is my fave, with Pantera and Megadeth not far behind. I like Classical and choral too, but that's just for a break. 

Anyway, the items in my shop and my question:

Available items:

(5) JBL 2118h
(2) Audax PR017MO
(4) JBL 2206h
(2) Faital Pro H106 compression drivers
(1) Faital Pro HF10AK compression driver
(2) ID CD Pro drivers w/Full size Horns
(2) Audiobahn full size horn and driver knock-offs
(10) Bohlender Graebener Neo8 Planar's
(2) JL 10w3v3 subs

(2) JBL MS-A1004 amps
(1) JBL MS-A5001 amp
(1) JBL MS-8 Processor

I'm really wondering how best to do the bass-midbass. Here is what I've pretty well nailed down:

2118 in each door with Faital Pro H106 and full size horn under dash

2118's in rear deck (I know everyone says tear out your rear fill, but honestly, I hate the sound coming all from in front--turn my head and there's a big hole) with either horns (w/CD Pro's) or banks of Neo8's

2118 in center with either the Faital HF10AK and a little fiberglass horn aimed at the windshield or a bank of Neo8's on axis

Left side door and rear 2118 parallel and bridged for 200 watts @ 4 ohms (100 each)
ditto on right

center 2118 bridged for 100 watts @ 8 ohms

that leaves me 2 channels on one MS-A1004 (horns will be powered by the MS-8)

Here's where I'm unsure:

I can keep it real simple and make a 1.5 cu ft sealed box out of my spare tire well for 2 JL10w3v3's parallel for 2ohm load to the JBL MS-A5001 (that would be stealth but who cares about stealth with a 2118 half cut into the center of my dash?) crossed with my 2118's @ 100hz or so.

Or:

Do the Jl's as above and add 2 2206's in a box right behind my backseat (I keep it folded down 99% of the time--gotta keep it in the car for that 1% though). Cross the JL's to the 2206's at 50hz or so...then maybe let them play on up with the mains till their rolloff.

Or:

Look for a sub that can do bass and midbass duties like that crazy blow-through Mikey did...I have much less room than that though. I'm tempted by the W10/12/15gti's, and I have JBL speakers, processor and amps to match.


Bassbox has my door 2118's at about 116 db, so I'm trying to get everything up to that. I have room for another of the JBL amps if need be. What would you do? I have much respect for the guys who post here, and any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## THUMOS

One last thing and I'll shut up. I guess the crux is that with my first system, the boomy bass overpowered everything in a muddy way. Good SPL, but I'm really after clear, clean, FAST bass. I'd like to be able to crank it to nasty levels on occasion, but mostly I want it tight and fast and clean. I tried the 2206's ported and tuned as low as possible, but they just plain need a dedicated sub underneath if I end up using them.

I've been modeling subs all the last few days. It's hard to get a sealed sub or 2 to keep up with the db levels of the PA fronts, especially with a 500 watt mono. Ported models do better in that area, but in looking for ultimate SQ, ported is not ideal, right or wrong? 

Anyway, my only experience with subs was that loud, boomy bass from the GZRA's (to be fair, they are not intended for SQ, and they were great at overpowering rumble), so any input on clean loud subs or subs under 2206's would really help.


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## Eric Stevens

I would strongly suggest the application of the kiss principle. I don't think imaging/staging is high priority so ditch the center channel and do the rest properly. Done use Dolby or other surround sound processors of that sort and just get something that does the basics of a good equalizer, crossover and signal delays are helpful also.

A single pair of 2118 with 250to 500 watts on them and a solid 50 watts to the Faital on the full size horns and you have as much volume as anyone can really stand inside a car unless they have severe hearing loss or are looking to go there.

For a loud subwoofer that is musical and fast you want a pro style driver as well and large is the key. Beyma Faital and other have some longish excursion 15 and 18 that would do the trick done correctly IB or as I prefer to call it trunk baffle. Don't go by the advertised Xmax figures when comparing look at winding height and gap height and look for a voice coil overhang of preferable 20mm total or more with an Fo no higher than 32 Hz. 2 drivers like I am suggesting with 1500 to 2000 total watts on them and you will have silly levels of SQL bass. Other option would be to do multiple longer excursion car subwoofers.

Eric


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## edzyy

Those Audax PR017MO will tear your head off and sound great doing so. 

I'd def try to incorporate them in the set up.


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## cajunner

I'd probably try and put the 4 2206's into a ported array and throw the 2118's in the four corners and in the center dash, since you've already chopped it.

then I'd get a lot of power, much more than you've got now.

under-dash full bodies on serious compression drivers, step up above those CD-1 Pro's.

You probably don't have room to do 4 2206's in vented alignment, and still fit a low end to the system where you have that down the block ground pound going on, so you choose for your music type and forget about pounding ground.

2206's driven with 400 watts or more each, in the vented box will bang your head, and get low enough to hear pretty much anything metal has to offer.

I too, like sound from all around and with the kind of loudness we're talking about, you don't really need to stage at all, it's physical, aural overload and it's gonna be mostly in your head anyways.


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## THUMOS

edzyy said:


> Those Audax PR017MO will tear your head off and sound great doing so.
> 
> I'd def try to incorporate them in the set up.


That's what I've read, and that's why I bought them. My front stage kinda morphed from a 3 way to a 2 way, and I just don't know how to incorporate them coherently anymore. The 2118's cover their band and then some at the bottom.



cajunner said:


> I'd probably try and put the 4 2206's into a ported array and throw the 2118's in the four corners and in the center dash, since you've already chopped it.


Actually haven't cut it yet (the Polks I had were built in a little wedge box atop my dash). You guys sound like you don't like centers. With that MS-8, I could play around a lot with the center settings. Set up poorly, it sounded like a little 1960's transistor radio sitting on my dash. Set up well, it really seemed to make a good point source for the vocals. I'll try both ways before I actually cut into my dash much.



cajunner said:


> then I'd get a lot of power, much more than you've got now.


Man, that last build had 2k in back, 300 on each Anarchy, 100 on center and mids. That's a lot on my stock electrical (150 amp alternator and good size battery). I was thinking with the sensitivity of the PA stuff, I wouldn't need anywhere that much. And now that I can model and see the 3db increase per doubled power, huge power seems kinda unnecessary. However, this is not experience talking. You really think I need a lot more? What db level "floor" would you shoot for. Right now, everything goes up to at least 116. Should I shoot for a higher threshold level?




cajunner said:


> You probably don't have room to do 4 2206's in vented alignment, and still fit a low end to the system where you have that down the block ground pound going on, so you choose for your music type and forget about pounding ground.
> 
> 2206's driven with 400 watts or more each, in the vented box will bang your head, and get low enough to hear pretty much anything metal has to offer.


Had never even considered that. I'll model it today and puzzle over logistics as to space.



cajunner said:


> I too, like sound from all around and with the kind of loudness we're talking about, you don't really need to stage at all, it's physical, aural overload and it's gonna be mostly in your head anyways.


Yeah...:rockon:




Eric Stevens said:


> I would strongly suggest the application of the kiss principle. I don't think imaging/staging is high priority so ditch the center channel and do the rest properly. Done use Dolby or other surround sound processors of that sort and just get something that does the basics of a good equalizer, crossover and signal delays are helpful also.


KISS. Definitely. That is one reason I ditched the 3 way front schema for 8's and horns. I'm the kind of person who has to keep that as a mantra. Simple. 

The MS-8 allows me to turn off active processing if I want. Then it would just be XO/EQ/RTA I think.



Eric Stevens said:


> A single pair of 2118 with 250to 500 watts on them and a solid 50 watts to the Faital on the full size horns and you have as much volume as anyone can really stand inside a car unless they have severe hearing loss or are looking to go there.


 Do you really think I need 50 on the horns? With their sensitivity, I was hoping to get away with about 20 from the MS-8. And I just received a replacement CD-1 PRo (from you, actually ); should I run a pair in the back with my 2118's in the rear deck? Is their any danger of them interfering with the Faitals in front?



Eric Stevens said:


> For a loud subwoofer that is musical and fast you want a pro style driver as well and large is the key. Beyma Faital and other have some longish excursion 15 and 18 that would do the trick done correctly IB or as I prefer to call it trunk baffle. Don't go by the advertised Xmax figures when comparing look at winding height and gap height and look for a voice coil overhang of preferable 20mm total or more with an Fo no higher than 32 Hz. 2 drivers like I am suggesting with 1500 to 2000 total watts on them and you will have silly levels of SQL bass. Other option would be to do multiple longer excursion car subwoofers.
> 
> Eric


Yeah, these LF PA drivers all seem to have low xmax, and in the modeling, they handle little power way down low. This is where I need to focus my research at the moment. I will start reading up on, and comparing the parameters you listed.

Thank you all for your suggestions. I never fail to learn something in this part of the forum. Much appreciated!


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## subwoofery

Great advices already there... The only one I can give you regarding horns is not to use the MS-8 to power your horns... Find a good 2 channels amp that puts out @ least 70 watts per channel. 

The MS-8 is great but it puts out 20 watts @ 4 ohm so much less @ a 8 ohm load. 
+ you won't have a way to level match your horns to the rest of the system. 
Lastly, I find amp selection much more difficult due to the efficiency difference of horns VS conventional drivers - noise floor, crossover distortion, etc...

Kelvin


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## THUMOS

subwoofery said:


> Great advices already there... The only one I can give you regarding horns is not to use the MS-8 to power your horns... Find a good 2 channels amp that puts out @ least 70 watts per channel.
> 
> The MS-8 is great but it puts out 20 watts @ 4 ohm so much less @ a 8 ohm load.
> + you won't have a way to level match your horns to the rest of the system.
> Lastly, I find amp selection much more difficult due to the efficiency difference of horns VS conventional drivers - noise floor, crossover distortion, etc...
> 
> Kelvin


Fair enough. I will have 2 100rms channels left. I can put those on the horns. I was thinking the opposite--that the extra wattage on horns would make them harder to level match. Just shows I have lots of learning to do. 

Thank you, sir. I appreciate every tip you guys are willing to give.


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## Canopy

Eric Stevens said:


> For a loud subwoofer that is musical and fast you want a pro style driver as well and large is the key. Beyma Faital and other have some longish excursion 15 and 18 that would do the trick done correctly IB or as I prefer to call it trunk baffle. Don't go by the advertised Xmax figures when comparing look at winding height and gap height and look for a voice coil overhang of preferable 20mm total or more with an Fo no higher than 32 Hz. 2 drivers like I am suggesting with 1500 to 2000 total watts on them and you will have silly levels of SQL bass. Other option would be to do multiple longer excursion car subwoofers.
> 
> Eric


Eric,

Any specific model# suggestions?


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## minbari

subwoofery said:


> Great advices already there... The only one I can give you regarding horns is not to use the MS-8 to power your horns... Find a good 2 channels amp that puts out @ least 70 watts per channel.
> 
> The MS-8 is great but it puts out 20 watts @ 4 ohm so much less @ a 8 ohm load.
> + you won't have a way to level match your horns to the rest of the system.
> Lastly, I find amp selection much more difficult due to the efficiency difference of horns VS conventional drivers - noise floor, crossover distortion, etc...
> 
> Kelvin


I agree with this line of thinking. since you will be listening to the horns at less than 1 watt most of the time, low power distortion and noise floor are of the utmost importance.

Once you have a good DSP, turning the output down for the horns to help level match is not too hard. the trick is to get a midbass that is sensitive enough and give it enough power that you dont have to turn it down very much.


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## Patrick Bateman

Those Exodus Anarchies are very nice.
You mentioned that you weren't happy with them.

I wonder if it's possible that you prefer the sound of distortion?

This is a "real" thing; a lot of people simply like the way it sounds. If you have two speakers playing at the same level, and one is more distorted, *it will sound louder.*

That's why a lot of clean speakers sound "lifeless".


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## THUMOS

Patrick Bateman said:


> Those Exodus Anarchies are very nice.
> You mentioned that you weren't happy with them.
> 
> I wonder if it's possible that you prefer the sound of distortion?
> 
> This is a "real" thing; a lot of people simply like the way it sounds. If you have two speakers playing at the same level, and one is more distorted, *it will sound louder.*
> 
> That's why a lot of clean speakers sound "lifeless".


I see now by modeling them, they were being drowned out by my mids and subs. With their low sensitivity, I just don't see how to fit them into a PA type build. I would have to double them up and feed them massive power for them to be heard at all. I think that was my disappointment--I didn't buy them for their extension (nor, at the time, for their lack of distortion); I bought them to bring some bass I could feel to the front of the car. And that, I never felt. But, to be fair, I hadn't done a thorough deadening job on my doors. That will definitely be a part of my next build.

Just to mention...I tried so hard to figure a way to make my center channel a synergy type horn like some of your experiments.  Even thought of that directional paraline you mocked up with wood.


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## THUMOS

Canopy said:


> Eric,
> 
> Any specific model# suggestions?


What do you think of the dual voice coil PRV 18 at PE? 

SUBWOOFER
18SW2200-2+2
Professional Low Frequency Driver
Key Features
Large Dual 4” Voice Coil
1,100 Watts Continuous Power Handling
105 dB Sensitivity
35-1,200 Hz



PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS
Nominal Diameter18"
Power Handling (RMS)1100 Watts
Power Handling (max)2,200 Watts
Impedance1,2+2,4 ohms
Frequency Response35 to 1,200 Hz
Sensitivity105 dB 2.83V/1m
Voice Coil Diameter4"
THIELE-SMALL PARAMETERS
Resonant Frequency (Fs)30.95 Hz
DC Resistance (Re)1.04 ohms
Mechanical Q (Qms)13.32
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.24
Total Q (Qts)0.24
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)7.95 ft.³
BL Product (BL)14.11 Tm
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)244.2g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)9 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)1,452 cm²


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## Eric Stevens

Not enough excursion as the 9mm is a p-p number not one way.

Eric



THUMOS said:


> What do you think of the dual voice coil PRV 18 at PE?
> 
> SUBWOOFER
> 18SW2200-2+2
> Professional Low Frequency Driver
> Key Features
> Large Dual 4” Voice Coil
> 1,100 Watts Continuous Power Handling
> 105 dB Sensitivity
> 35-1,200 Hz
> 
> 
> 
> PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS
> Nominal Diameter18"
> Power Handling (RMS)1100 Watts
> Power Handling (max)2,200 Watts
> Impedance1,2+2,4 ohms
> Frequency Response35 to 1,200 Hz
> Sensitivity105 dB 2.83V/1m
> Voice Coil Diameter4"
> THIELE-SMALL PARAMETERS
> Resonant Frequency (Fs)30.95 Hz
> DC Resistance (Re)1.04 ohms
> Mechanical Q (Qms)13.32
> Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.24
> Total Q (Qts)0.24
> Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)7.95 ft.³
> BL Product (BL)14.11 Tm
> Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)244.2g
> Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)9 mm
> Surface Area of Cone (Sd)1,452 cm²


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## THUMOS

Eric Stevens said:


> Not enough excursion as the 9mm is a p-p number not one way.
> 
> Eric


That's kind of what I thought, but it seems that is the way of PA drivers. I looked through Faital's whole spreadsheet for LF comparison, and they have very few at 10mm or above (advertised xmax). JBL pro drivers are even worse in that respect. I got a good deal on a couple JL12w6v2's which model well. Just looking for that fast, clean clear sound.

Honestly, I haven't found much info on how mag gap/winding depth relate to each other or to xmax, so I don't really have a means to compare numbers (for the few drivers which publish those specs).


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## Canopy

I was looking at this one on US Speaker. Says 14mm Xmax. Seems like the High Xmax = high price.

Ciare 18.00 SW - Ciare 18.00 SW is a 18" subwoofer for all high power subwoofer speaker systems- Ciare Speakers - Ciare 18.00 SW 18" high power speaker for subwoofer speaker systems. Ciare 18.00 SW high power subwoofer 18" speakers available now.

Ciare 18.00 SW

Nominal Basket Diameter


18" / 460mm

Impedance


4 or 8 ohms

AES Power Rating


800 Watts
Program Power 1,600 Watts

Frequency Response


20Hz - 1kHz

Sensitivity (1W/1m)


93dB

Voice Coil Diameter


4" / 100mm
Winding Material Copper
Former Material Fiber Glass
Winding Depth 1.0" / 25mm
Magnetic Gap Depth .5" / 12mm
Flux Density 1.3T

MOUNTING INFORMATION
Overall Diameter 18.1" / 460mm
Bolt Circle Diameter 17.32" / 440mm
Baffle Cutout Diameter 16.38" / 416mm
Depth 8.27" / 210mm
No. Of Mounting Holes 8
Mounting Hole Diameter .28" / 7.0mm
Net Weight 34.5 lbs./ 15.7 kg.

MATERIALS
Basket Cast Aluminum
Cone Doped Paper
Surround Rubber
Surround Shape Half Roll
Suspension Material Doped Nomex fabric
Voice Coil Copper
Former Kapton
Magnet Ferrite

THIELE-SMALL PARAMETERS

Resonant Frequency (fs)
36.4Hz
Impedance (Re) 6.8 ohms
Electrical Factor(Qes) .47
Mechanical Q (Qms) 11.6
Total Q (Qts) .45
Compliance Equiv. Vol. (Vas) 92 Liters/3.25cu. ft.
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 14.0mm
BL Factor 35.11 T-M
Diaphragm Mass (Mms) .371 kg.
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)m2 0.1104m2
Reference Efficiency .88%
Coil Inductance (Le) 1.72mH

There is also the 2218 Neo that says 21.3mm Xmax but its not cheap.

Radian Audio 2218 Neo 18" Woofer - Radian 18" 2218Neo. Radian 2218 Neo low frequency wooferer - Radian 2218 Neo woofer handles 2,600 watts program. Radian 2218 Neo 18" woofers available here at US Speaker. Radian 2218 Neo woofers.

Impedance (LF/HF) 8 ohms
AES Power Rating 1,300 Watts
Program Power Handling 2,600 Watts
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 100dB SPL
Frequency Response 24Hz - 2kHz
Voice Coil Diameter 4.0"
Recommended Enclosure 170-340 Liters / 6-12 cu. ft.
Net Weight 17.15 lbs. / 7.8 kg.

Mounting Information
Overall Diameter 18.31" / 465mm
Bolt Circle Diameter 17.38" / 441.33mm
Baffle Cutout Diameter 16.88" / 429mm
Overall Depth 7.88" / 200.2mm

Materials
Woofer Cone X5 Cone & Coated Paper
Basket Cast Aluminum
Voice Coil Double Layer Edgewound Aluminum
Input Connectors Push Button Terminals

Thiele-Small Parameters
Resonant Frequency (Fs) 28.97 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.54 ohms
Total Q (Qts) .219
Mechanical Q (Qms) 2.76
Electrical Factor(Qes) .238
BL Factor 33.06 T-M
Diaphragm Mass (Mms) 258.2 grams
Comp. Equivelant Vol. (Vas) 355.79 Liters / 12.56 cu. ft.
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 21.3
Reference Efficiency 3.51%
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)m2 .2269 m2

Thoughts?


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## Eric Stevens

Canopy said:


> Eric,
> 
> Any specific model# suggestions?


18"
B&C 18TBW100, 18SW115

FaitalPRO 18HP1030/1060 / 18XL1600

RCF LF18X451

18 Sound 18NLW9600

15"
B&C 15TBW100 Fo a little higher than desired

Ciare 15NDH-4S / NDC 15-4 S

FaitalPRO 15HP1030/1060 / 15XL1400

Here is a list to get you started, I am sure there are others.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

THUMOS said:


> Honestly, I haven't found much info on how mag gap/winding depth relate to each other or to xmax, so I don't really have a means to compare numbers (for the few drivers which publish those specs).


Yes it is hard to find. You have to dig and know where to look and sometimes you just cant find it so you have to email or contact the manufacturer if possible.

Eric


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## THUMOS

Eric Stevens said:


> Yes it is hard to find. You have to dig and know where to look and sometimes you just cant find it so you have to email or contact the manufacturer if possible.
> 
> Eric


Awesome! Thanks for your time, man.


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## mikey7182

The BMS 18N862 I used were awesome. Definitely the most capable pro audio woofer I have ever used in a car. Pricey though and tough to find:

Overview


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## Eric Stevens

The Radian looks promising but need to see what the winding height and gap height are so I can see how they are arriving at the XMAX listed.

Ciare is only 6.5mm of overhang which is lower than desired. see my calculations below.

Eric



Canopy said:


> I was looking at this one on US Speaker. Says 14mm Xmax. Seems like the High Xmax = high price.
> 
> Ciare 18.00 SW
> 
> Winding Depth 1.0" / 25mm
> Magnetic Gap Depth .5" / 12mm
> 
> *25-12 = 13 / 2= 6.5 mm voice coil overhang one way*
> 
> 
> 
> There is also the 2218 Neo that says 21.3mm Xmax but its not cheap.
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


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## Eric Stevens

mikey7182 said:


> The BMS 18N862 I used were awesome. Definitely the most capable pro audio woofer I have ever used in a car. Pricey though and tough to find:
> 
> Overview


Now that is a serious high output monster of a subwoofer. It will have sheet metal damaging output if you have the power 

Eric


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## Canopy

Yes I remember you mentioning that. So regardless of what they advertise the true 1 way xmax is that calculation. Ok got it.

coil length - gap height/2 = 1 way xmax


How much 1 way Xmax is needed?


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## Eric Stevens

Canopy said:


> Yes I remember you mentioning that. So regardless of what they advertise the true 1 way xmax is that calculation. Ok got it.
> 
> coil length - gap height/2 = 1 way xmax
> 
> 
> How much 1 way Xmax is needed?


I would shoot for 8mm one way or higher. 8mm may not sound high but on a 18" its plenty. With a 12mm top plate/gap height you will get a useable 11 mm out of it and with a 15mm top plate/gap height you would get 12mm useable.

By useable I mean low distortion clean output. 

Look for an Fo no higher than 32 Hz and prefer below 30.

Eric


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## cajunner

Canopy said:


> Yes I remember you mentioning that. So regardless of what they advertise the true 1 way xmax is that calculation. Ok got it.
> 
> coil length - gap height/2 = 1 way xmax
> 
> 
> How much 1 way Xmax is needed?


you'd like as much as you can get, haha..

it seems as though anything that comes in under 8mm of one-way is not going to put the wrinkle in your tinkle, but I don't know why you'd need to be able to do massive sub 30 hz ground pound when 95% of the music in metal genre is 40 hz on up.

and 40 hz is actually pretty low bass, I think with a little box work on 4 2206's you'd have a bottom that satisfies, but that may be a personal decision.


I'd have to agree that juicing the Anarchies, and then going to straight pro mid bass with the JBL is going to be quite a change. That may be all the OP really needs, but then for an occasional ground pound you could put a single 15" with mad stroke, I just think that it would be a lot of extra design/cost/build space/etc. for 10 hz of extra bandwidth.


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## mikey7182

Eric Stevens said:


> Now that is a serious high output monster of a subwoofer. It will have sheet metal damaging output if you have the power
> 
> Eric


I ran a pair of those about 300 watts a piece up to 250hz in 5cf each, tuned around 30hz, and that was about all I could take. I can't imagine feeding them 1kw+.


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## THUMOS

cajunner said:


> you'd like as much as you can get, haha..
> 
> it seems as though anything that comes in under 8mm of one-way is not going to put the wrinkle in your tinkle, but I don't know why you'd need to be able to do massive sub 30 hz ground pound when 95% of the music in metal genre is 40 hz on up.
> 
> and 40 hz is actually pretty low bass, I think with a little box work on 4 2206's you'd have a bottom that satisfies, but that may be a personal decision.
> 
> 
> I'd have to agree that juicing the Anarchies, and then going to straight pro mid bass with the JBL is going to be quite a change. That may be all the OP really needs, but then for an occasional ground pound you could put a single 15" with mad stroke, I just think that it would be a lot of extra design/cost/build space/etc. for 10 hz of extra bandwidth.


I tried 2 of the 2206's vented and tuned low, but the bottom octave was definitely lacking. King Diamond has pipe organs and such, so I should condition my statement about genre to include more than what most people think of as "metal." That said, I had them in stereo. 4 hooked mono might give more low end. I will model it. Those 2206's don't handle much power down low, so I'd risk blowing them to get the bottom end I want. I can always sell them for something else, so I'm not married to any of my equipment.

As for the anarchies, I actually blew one already (@600 watts), so its not just a lack of juice (blew one of my GZRA's also when a 2k amp decided to have a meltdown. I want to get away from the low sensitivity/high-power paradigm altogether. I like the idea of a PA 18" because I have an empty spare tire wheel well which begs for some fiberglass and a big sub, and I'm hoping a PA 18 will be fast and clean in a way my SPL-oriented GZRA's were not. Also hoping for a bit more extension in case the 2118's win the front spot. I'm a little leery of that because I like a little bass up front. I may swap them for some Faital 8PR200's.


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## cajunner

THUMOS said:


> I tried 2 of the 2206's vented and tuned low, but the bottom octave was definitely lacking. King Diamond has pipe organs and such, so I should condition my statement about genre to include more than what most people think of as "metal." That said, I had them in stereo. 4 hooked mono might give more low end. I will model it. Those 2206's don't handle much power down low, so I'd risk blowing them to get the bottom end I want. I can always sell them for something else, so I'm not married to any of my equipment.
> 
> As for the anarchies, I actually blew one already (@600 watts), so its not just a lack of juice (blew one of my GZRA's also when a 2k amp decided to have a meltdown. I want to get away from the low sensitivity/high-power paradigm altogether. I like the idea of a PA 18" because I have an empty spare tire wheel well which begs for some fiberglass and a big sub, and I'm hoping a PA 18 will be fast and clean in a way my SPL-oriented GZRA's were not. Also hoping for a bit more extension in case the 2118's win the front spot. I'm a little leery of that because I like a little bass up front. I may swap them for some Faital 8PR200's.


you've got your work cut out for you, then.

I would look at 4 2206's as handling a lot of power down to 40 hz, and a lot of output vented.

but like you've said, you need that bottom bump. I just think a pro 18 is going to want more than 3 cubes, and 3 cubes eats up a lot of trunk.


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## THUMOS

cajunner said:


> you've got your work cut out for you, then.
> 
> I would look at 4 2206's as handling a lot of power down to 40 hz, and a lot of output vented.
> 
> but like you've said, you need that bottom bump. I just think a pro 18 is going to want more than 3 cubes, and 3 cubes eats up a lot of trunk.


True. But with their size and sensitivity, they model pretty well even with smaller enclosures. I mean, they model better bigger, but it looks like (on Bassbox) that a PA 18 in a sub-optimal enclosure is a step up from most everything else. Granted, all this is just modeling on a computer, and not listening experience. That, I don't have other than my old set-up and my experiments with the 2206's. 

My main thing is I want depth and separation in the instruments. I like loud but I hate loud mud where you can't tell one instrument from another. I wish they would do some recording mixes that are tracked like sound is produced live--each instrument on its own speaker. That's a fantasy though. I'm just looking for separation between instruments, speed for double-bass drums and clarity for vocals.


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## mikey7182

In my experience with the 2206, they're good down to about 40hz and then they run out of steam. My current enclosures for them are tuned to 55hz, and I believe their Fs is 52hz. Cabin gain will help a bit below that, but that's really too high an Fs combined with too little cone area/excursion to really give you bottom end extension. Even the car audio variants- the 1200GTi- don't do as well down low. I ran a 1500GTi and bottomed it out a few times. 

If you could find some way to do a 4-way active, it would give you what you're looking for. I know space is at a premium, but horns, 2118 in the doors, 2206 in the rear quarters or rear deck, and a single 18 in the trunk would be rockin.


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## THUMOS

mikey7182 said:


> In my experience with the 2206, they're good down to about 40hz and then they run out of steam. My current enclosures for them are tuned to 55hz, and I believe their Fs is 52hz. Cabin gain will help a bit below that, but that's really too high an Fs combined with too little cone area/excursion to really give you bottom end extension. Even the car audio variants- the 1200GTi- don't do as well down low. I ran a 1500GTi and bottomed it out a few times.
> 
> If you could find some way to do a 4-way active, it would give you what you're looking for. I know space is at a premium, but horns, 2118 in the doors, 2206 in the rear quarters or rear deck, and a single 18 in the trunk would be rockin.


I think I'm fishing for justification to do just that.


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## mikey7182

THUMOS said:


> I think I'm fishing for justification to do just that.


Actually, the only reason I would run a pro audio sub is if you aren't going to do the 2206. All that snap and punch is going to come from the midbass anyway, and it's difficult to find a pro audio sub that extends that low. It can still be done, but if you're really only looking to reinforce 25-50hz, get something like the W12GTi or W15GTi and port it and be done. I've tried this lots of different ways and unless you have room for the big 18s and plan on running them on midbass duty as well, I don't really see many advantages in going with a dedicated PA sub. You already have the 2206. Find a nice sounding sub like the JBL, a Soundsplinter RL-P, etc. Something that will bolster up that bottom end and doesn't need your entire trunk to do it in. Just my $.02.


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## THUMOS

mikey7182 said:


> Actually, the only reason I would run a pro audio sub is if you aren't going to do the 2206. All that snap and punch is going to come from the midbass anyway, and it's difficult to find a pro audio sub that extends that low. It can still be done, but if you're really only looking to reinforce 25-50hz, get something like the W12GTi or W15GTi and port it and be done. I've tried this lots of different ways and unless you have room for the big 18s and plan on running them on midbass duty as well, I don't really see many advantages in going with a dedicated PA sub. You already have the 2206. Find a nice sounding sub like the JBL, a Soundsplinter RL-P, etc. Something that will bolster up that bottom end and doesn't need your entire trunk to do it in. Just my $.02.


That's pretty much what I'm thinking. Just have to cover the bottom octave. I've been eyeing that w15gti pretty tough. Heck, what I already have in the shop would do the trick (JL 12w6v2's or 10w3v3s or my GZRA 12d4). I could run my MS-8 sub channel from 20-100 and then feed split the signal with the amp crossovers. Don't need alot of output on that bottom octave after cabin gain.

I will probably try exactly that. If kickdrum fundamentals still sound like mud (I've read they live at about 30hz), I'll find a better faster cleaner bottom end. Heck, like you said, those 2206's will probably more than make up as far as articulating the beats.


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## mikey7182

I didn't have very good results with the MS-8 and horns, which I hate to say since I'm such a JBL whore. You might have a different experience. I have had much better luck with a processor you can tune manually, because the MS-8 doesn't really give you access to change much on your own. The Alpine H701 has been my go-to in recent years, after trying quite a few others. They're cheap and effective, and they'll do 4-way active. I wouldn't worry about doing a center, like Eric said. 

I would also run the 2206 higher than 100hz (if that's what you meant by splitting the MS-8 signal from 20-100). Currently I have mine crossed over with the 2118 at 200hz, and have gone as high as 315. Yours will depend on where the 2206 end up and how badly they pull to the rear. I've noticed a lot of the snap is from about 80-200hz, and running the 2118 higher allows you to take advantage of all that extra cone area from the 2206 in the midbass/drum region, and gives the 2118 a chance to really shine as a midrange, which is what they were intended for.


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## THUMOS

That is my only worry... How much it pulls to the rear. Plus they will have to be in a box behind my backseats. They are folded down almost all the time, but if they are up, I'd lose all kinds of the frequency band. That's not going to happen much though.

I got the ms8 because it is so newb friendly. May step up though as I get more involved.


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## edzyy

MS-8 made my set up sound like a clock radio

It doesn't play well with the pro stuff at all.


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## mikey7182

THUMOS said:


> That is my only worry... How much it pulls to the rear. Plus they will have to be in a box behind my backseats. They are folded down almost all the time, but if they are up, I'd lose all kinds of the frequency band. That's not going to happen much though.
> 
> I got the ms8 because it is so newb friendly. May step up though as I get more involved.


Well FWIW, there's a W205/H701 combo FS right now for $425 shipped. Do yourself a favor and sell that MS-8.  There is a lot of support out there for you as far as tuning goes. A lot of us have traveled that road and would be happy to offer up tips or suggestions, plus Eric is always very helpful and involved.

So you drive a newer Camaro and the midbass are going to be in your trunk? I haven't been inside those cars much except for Mattyjman's briefly- is the rear deck not an option? I know you don't want to cut your rear quarters. Just can't remember what the deck looks like (or if there even is one).


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## THUMOS

I'm having a brain fart on the size of the rear deck right now. I'll check. I know it has 6x9s I don't run. The box wouldn't be bad. It would be front firing into the cabin, but rear deck is worth checking. I looked at alpine 200s after you advised someone in another thread. I'm just hesitant because the stock head unit has so much stuff tired in with it... Car settings, blue tooth, etc... I'm researching and being persuaded though.


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## mikey7182

Well you don't necessarily have to go with a new HU. I just mentioned the W200 because it's what I use to control my H701. If you have a factory headunit that you're wanting to retain, there are a lot of processors that have come out lately that allow factory integration. Even the H701 has the option RUX-C701 controller, and you could just do an input from your factory radio to the processor. But there's the Mosconi 6to8, the ARC PS8, Zapco processors, Fosgate 3Sixty.3, Helix, etc. A lot has come out in the past few years. My point was that ultimately you'll just want something that allows you to make changes to all your settings and see what's going on. The MS-8 is great in its own right, but not ideal for this type of setup.

The reason I love the W200 is because I can control everything right from a double DIN touchscreen in a graphical user interface, instead of having to pull out a laptop or something every time I want to make an adjustment. But if you need to keep your factory deck, there are still a lot of options out there.

For your rear deck, if there's enough room, you could actually build the enclosure to fire up through, instead of trying to actually mount the 2206 to the deck and deal with vibration and resonance issues. I designed an enclosure for a trunk that was going to house a pair of 2206 in 1.4cf ported, that fired up through factory speaker locations that I cut out a bit to make larger, then a single W12GTi in a 4th order bandpass enclosure with the port firing up through the center of the rear deck. I never ended up building it as I started on the truck again shortly after, but I think it would've been a cool idea and one that I will be trying the next time I get a sedan.


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## thehatedguy

I tried the MS8 on horns too.

Tonally it sounded pretty decent. However it took all of the life- you know the impact out of the horns. I don't think it is pro stuff in general, but how the MS-8 tried to deal with the dispersion pattern of the horns. Andy said a while back that it might have some problems with trying to figure out how to EQ and process the horns. I know Mic had the same or similar results with the MS8 and horns in his car.


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## thehatedguy

With my little experiments, I could go to 250 or so on the back deck and not get much pulling to the rear with just level and polarity adjustments (all I had at the time) and to about 150 firing through the ski pass and keeping the stereo illusion in front.


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## THUMOS

Man, that sounds awesome! I hadn't thought about just firing them up through the deck... Just mounting to it. That would make it more possible if 12s are just a bit big to mount there. 

I don't really have another slot for the rux, but if I could find something I could control from the stock hu, I'd jump on it. I live the idea of full control from the hu, so if I must change it I probably will.


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## mikey7182

THUMOS said:


> Man, that sounds awesome! I hadn't thought about just firing them up through the deck... Just mounting to it. That would make it more possible if 12s are just a bit big to mount there.
> 
> I don't really have another slot for the rux, but if I could find something I could control from the stock hu, I'd jump on it. I live the idea of full control from the hu, so if I must change it I probably will.


That's what forced me to come up with the idea. I was worried about deadening and resonance and then wasn't able to get the space I needed as the rear deck was right around 12" front to back, but if you just rounded the 6x9 holes and made the 9" diameter, the centered the 2206 just below them, maybe do some foam around the perimeter of the enclosure so it fits under there snug but doesn't make any contact with the underside of the deck. Then cut a 4" or so diameter hole in the center for the port, and the sub will be fully enclosed. This was my idea, anyway.


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## THUMOS

thehatedguy said:


> With my little experiments, I could go to 250 or so on the back deck and not get much pulling to the rear with just level and polarity adjustments (all I had at the time) and to about 150 firing through the ski pass and keeping the stereo illusion in front.


 Good to know. I can't wait to try it at different levels. I love the big displacement and I want it as high as possible without feeling all the sound coming from behind.

What about you... Do you advise against a center channel too? I remember reading your thoughts about trying a horn in the center. Is it worth it? I actually liked the center with the ms8 when I used a good driver. With a small one it sucked.


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## thehatedguy

I never got to doing a center horn with the MS8. I did get a really stable phantom center with just the horns on the MS8 though.

And I did like the center with a large driver too.

You probably wouldn't find yourself needing a center to be honest.


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## THUMOS

mikey7182 said:


> That's what forced me to come up with the idea. I was worried about deadening and resonance and then wasn't able to get the space I needed as the rear deck was right around 12" front to back, but if you just rounded the 6x9 holes and made the 9" diameter, the centered the 2206 just below them, maybe do some foam around the perimeter of the enclosure so it fits under there snug but doesn't make any contact with the underside of the deck. Then cut a 4" or so diameter hole in the center for the port, and the sub will be fully enclosed. This was my idea, anyway.


I'm on it. . I won't really know for sure till I pull the plastic trim. (Which in this car requires you to pull the back seat... Crazy). But it is looking promising at first glance.


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## chevbowtie22

thehatedguy said:


> I tried the MS8 on horns too.
> 
> Tonally it sounded pretty decent. However it took all of the life- you know the impact out of the horns. I don't think it is pro stuff in general, but how the MS-8 tried to deal with the dispersion pattern of the horns. Andy said a while back that it might have some problems with trying to figure out how to EQ and process the horns. I know Mic had the same or similar results with the MS8 and horns in his car.


Same here. I ran the ms8 for a month or two with my horns. I tried all kinds of ways to 'trick" the ms8 into doing what I felt sounded right. What it all eventually boiled down to was the ms8 getting swapped out for a miniDSP. It sounded MUCh better in my fiances altima with a full focal setup.


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## Mic10is

Tonality w an MS8 and horns and even a center was great for me. but the major issue I had was it was applying way too much TA which tonally skewed the stage. Amplitude measurements showed equaled output from both sides, but when listening everything seemed very right biased with very little information on the left side. 

I tried for months to "fix" it through all sorts of different calibration methods, lean this way, sit that way, cover this, cover that...nothing worked. the only way I could get a symmetrical stage was to straddle the center console with the arm rest basically up my ass and run the calibration.
FINALLY a balanced stage from left to right........but no width.

eventually i pulled it out bc I was honestly getting dumber trying to figure out ways around and ways to manipulate what the processor was doing instead of being able to tune and make the adjustments I knew it needed to make myself.

put my H700 back in at the time, couple hours of tuning, won MECA Extreme class at finals


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## Patrick Bateman

Mic10is said:


> Tonality w an MS8 and horns and even a center was great for me. but the major issue I had was it was applying way too much TA which tonally skewed the stage. Amplitude measurements showed equaled output from both sides, but when listening everything seemed very right biased with very little information on the left side.
> 
> I tried for months to "fix" it through all sorts of different calibration methods, lean this way, sit that way, cover this, cover that...nothing worked. the only way I could get a symmetrical stage was to straddle the center console with the arm rest basically up my ass and run the calibration.
> FINALLY a balanced stage from left to right........but no width.
> 
> eventually i pulled it out bc I was honestly getting dumber trying to figure out ways around and ways to manipulate what the processor was doing instead of being able to tune and make the adjustments I knew it needed to make myself.
> 
> put my H700 back in at the time, couple hours of tuning, won MECA Extreme class at finals


I don't have an MS-8, but I have another one of the Harmon processors in my Genesis. Lexicon.

In my Mazda6 I'm doing two channel.

The Genesis has a solid center image, but the Mazda has more depth and width.

Then again, the speakers in the Mazda are fairly impractical.

If I'm not mistaken, anytime you put a center in the car it's going to have the effect of narrowing the stage. You're basically sending 'clues' to your brain that steer the sound to the center, and that will have the tendency to restrict width.

One way to 'add it back' might be crosstalk cancellation. For instance it's very easy to get a soundstage that sounds like it's twenty feet wide with ambiophonics.


BTW, keep an eye on my thread 'edge of no control' over on diyaudio. I'm building some horns which were greatly influenced by how you set up your BMW. The second pair is clamped and drying in the garage as I type this. I'm hoping I'll have it all ready to demo at a show in Riverside CA on May 10th.


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## Patrick Bateman

Oh, another observation about the MS-8:

I'm starting to think that processing needs to be done on a "per track" basis.

For instance, I have an AudioControl Epicenter, and I have the ambio app for my iPad. And I've used both in the car. But I've found that I'm constantly fiddling with the settings. *What sounds good on one track will often sound like crap on another.* But IMHO, a lot of this is related to the content. For instance, if you set up the Epicenter for rock music, it will make EDM sound bloated. If you set up your ambio processing for well recorded music, it's effect will be unnoticeable on poorly recorded music. And if you set it up for poorly recorded music, it's effect on well recorded music will sound totally exaggerated.

So I think the best solution might be to do it on a track by track basis. Both ambio processing and epicenter processing can be done on the computer, for free, in Audacity. So you could basically "pre-process" your tracks, save them to your iPad/Android/iPhone/etc and use that as your source.

Of course, I have all of the originals stored losslessly on my NAS at home.


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## BigRed

If u use an apple product to play music there is the app equ which basically lets u eq every song in your iTunes media to your taste. It will remember it for future reference . Very cool app!


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## THUMOS

Patrick Bateman said:


> Oh, another observation about the MS-8:
> 
> I'm starting to think that processing needs to be done on a "per track" basis.
> 
> For instance, I have an AudioControl Epicenter, and I have the ambio app for my iPad. And I've used both in the car. But I've found that I'm constantly fiddling with the settings. *What sounds good on one track will often sound like crap on another.* But IMHO, a lot of this is related to the content. For instance, if you set up the Epicenter for rock music, it will make EDM sound bloated. If you set up your ambio processing for well recorded music, it's effect will be unnoticeable on poorly recorded music. And if you set it up for poorly recorded music, it's effect on well recorded music will sound totally exaggerated.
> 
> So I think the best solution might be to do it on a track by track basis. Both ambio processing and epicenter processing can be done on the computer, for free, in Audacity. So you could basically "pre-process" your tracks, save them to your iPad/Android/iPhone/etc and use that as your source.
> 
> Of course, I have all of the originals stored losslessly on my NAS at home.


I have noticed that too as far as one setup sounding great for one artist (or actually one album) and then terrible on the next. 



BigRed said:


> If u use an apple product to play music there is the app equ which basically lets u eq every song in your iTunes media to your taste. It will remember it for future reference . Very cool app!


...Resisting the urge to give in to Apple....:worried:


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## THUMOS

OK. Good weekend...2 MS-8's sold and a h800 on the way with the proper rux. Expect several "cry for help" threads in this, my favorite corner of the forum.

Rear deck now looks pretty hopeless as there is not much room and a big reinforcing column running along the front which is too much hassle to hack and too intrusive to work around. Looks like I'll go with a ported box for the 2206's front-firing.

Question: at what frequency does it become advisable to run the 2206's in stereo rather than mono. Being behind me and not very well separated anyway, I might not get much actual left-right separation detectable aurally. However, I want to do this right, and if it is better to run them stereo, I can sure do it.

Thanks as always!


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## mikey7182

Your concept is similar to mine here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/126807-mikes-new-pro-audio-blowthrough.html

In that build, I used a pair of BMS 18N862 in a blowthrough and ran them as high as 300hz. Talking with Vance Dickason (who I bought the subs from), he said I shouldn't pick up on stereo/directional cues until around 300hz. Ultimately they sounded best and blended best with the 8" mids around 250.

Is firing the 2206 up through the factory 6x9 holes not an option? I just worry that with the seat up and the 2206 firing into the back of the seat, you're going to muffle some of the higher stuff, like the low end of a snare, guitar, etc. Any cone/port exposure that you can pull off would be ideal.

This idea of stereo vs. mono is also nice because it opens up your amp options. You can do a single amp bridged to both 2206 vs. try to find a 2/4 channel amp. You could even use a mono amp if its frequency response is high enough/doesn't start to roll off at 200hz, etc. 

If you can fit the 8s in the doors and HPF them around 200-250hz, then you can play with the 2206 and see what sounds best, and give yourself enough flexibility to see where stereo cues start to come in.


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## THUMOS

Firing through the 6x9's (and even opening the holes up somewhat) is actually doable. My misgivings are:

1. I'll lose some sound and dynamics by restricting the 12" driver output into/through 9" diameter holes.

2. My backseats are almost never used in the upright position. They have been down for months, so backseat muffle is a remote worry (but a real one nonetheless).

3. Practically, the build will be easier. I built my wife a similar box for Christmas. It was kinda tedious (my first), but it turned out really nice.

Anyway, those are my thoughts at this stage. I'm again scoping out the W15gti-II. It's just so deep! I shouldn't have any problems with a trunk which is closed off by my 2206 box in terms of disturbing the low bass (<50hz) from the sub, should I? I'm not sure if there might be resonance issues with different boxes in close proximity. I'l probably go sealed. I only have about 2 cubes to play with at the most for the sub.


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## mikey7182

Is it flat up against your back seat or is it tapered? 

Do you plan on using the space in your spare tire well?

Any chance you could get me some measurements of the space you have to work with, if it's a square enough shape?


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## THUMOS

You bet. Going to pick it up right now. Been in the body shop almost a month over a couple scratches. Crazy. Had to use my wife's car for measurements for the last 27 days.


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## THUMOS

Crap. My pxa-h800 deal fell through. Now I'm back to the drawing board on that. Seeing a 701/rux for $425 or a Bit One for $530. I'm not sure I can reach an h800 new at the moment.

I'll go do some measurements directly.


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## mikey7182

I like the H701 personally. The BitOne is hit or miss and has been plagued with software issues. Plus it saves you $100.

I'm curious on the measurements and how much space you have to work with overall.


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## THUMOS

Sorry. Got to tweaking since I sold everything out of it that previously made music.  Just kidding. Have to read the manual on these new JBL amps so I can rig something up to get by on. My spare wheel well is about 30" diameter. It is about 11 inches deep in the middle (where the battery currently sits, about a 12" x 8" indention to fit the housing), tapering to about 8 inches around the outside portion. I was contemplating moving the battery to another location, but the one I had in mind (driver's side wheel well) isn't long enough for it. Leaving the battery in is an option, but then I am restricted to smaller subs. 10's fit easily, 12's with smallish mags/casings fit, too. My Ground Zero 12 and an old JBL GT12 will fit. My JL12W6's would not.

I fiberglassed some custom 1 cube enclosures for 12" drivers which currently sit in driver's and passenger side wheel wells, firing to the front. I have the 2206's in them right now. I like them in some ways, and in others, no. They fire forward and sit about 10" behind the backseat. I thought they would be space-savers, but my wife's box which spans across the backseat is superior in that respect. Also, that configuration puts the subs right at the furthest forward point in the trunk (right behind backseat if folded up), and the punch seems stronger than mine which sit further back. I just wonder if I built a box like that for the 2206's if it would cause problems for the lower sub tones coming from the back of the trunk. But the low frequencies go through barriers easily, right? They wouldn't be "trapped" if a box cut off the trunk.

The rear deck actually looks more promising than I thought. With her box in the way, I couldn't get a good look from below. Now that I have my car back, I looked and there looks to be nearly a foot of space to work with. Ultimately, I will have to remove the rear seat and pull the trim to get a good look. I just don't have time right now. I'm in a doctoral program at the end of a semester, and I'm facing multiple 20 pagers in the next 3 weeks. (Philosophy, nothing glamorous).

Mikey, I know you want better measurements, and I will get them. I'm beat for the night, though. I'll have a bit more time Friday.


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