# Can a stereo sound as good as a live performance?



## starfox5194 (Aug 1, 2013)

I went to the bar this weekend and a small local band was playing. They had the standard drum, 6 string electric guitar, bass guitar, singer setup. The sound quality of the music they played was such a natural, true sound (because it was). WHY doesn't my car sound this good?

I'm used to going to concerts where every speaker is turned ALL the way up and everything is amplified so that the hundreds of people can hear everything.

I feel as if my car sounds as good as a concert, not as good as a live-bar performance.

The main thing that stood out was the beat of the drums and the bass guitar. My system doesn't make true "feeling" beats like that.

I have a decent aftermarket setup. However it is auto-tuned by the head unit. I should probably find some way to spend some time with an RTA.

80-PRS
HAT Clarus C61-2, L1 Pro R2
AE IB10" AU
PDX F6 & M12
And the doors are sound deadened. Is more deadening the answer?

What are your thoughts? can a stereo sound as good as a live bar performance?


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Concert & live band bars are two different areas in tuning for one. They're tuned differently. It's hard work to get a car to sound like either, but I seriously doubt anyone can do both without having two different tune presets. 

There's a discussion currently going on elsewhere on this topic with wildly varying opinions and has been discussed here before many times and in length. I can't imagine having to deal with such an issue though. I just try to have playback that seems close to being realistic/accurate for the source given, but in no way I could deem my setup as ideal for all.


----------



## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

I've yet to hear any stereo (let alone one in car) that truly does justice to the sound of an orchestra and choir. I remember hearing Verdi's Requiem performed live when I was younger and the impact of the kettle drums was something else. I heard it again today on a mediocre PA system and it was totally lacking any visceral dimension.

The one which is often quoted is the 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky with live cannon fire - no system in the world can exactly reproduce this, although some get pretty close...

For less "extreme" types of music it is arguably easier in terms of the SPL required but it's still a huge challenge to recreate that "live" sound...


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Your car can only sound as good as the recording, and the best recording will only capture 80-85% of the live experience. A car is a horrible place to listen to music. That said, you can get it sounding like the recording but the setup needs tuning, you need to get timing and response right at your ears. Use your hu to get as far as you can by learning to tune. Once you're maxing out the potential of the 80 prs go for a full blown dsp. Getting your car sounding like a decent 2ch is about a year or so with the hu you have.


----------



## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

starfox5194 said:


> .....What are your thoughts? can a stereo sound as *good* as a live bar performance?


There's your key word. The absolutely subjective measure of "good" is in the ear of the beholder and IMHO at any given moment you or I may find ourselves listening to a playback (in a car or otherwise) and feeling "that sounds _good_!!" Congratulations, enjoy the moment, the exact same situation the next day may not evoke that feeling. 

Yeah, what I'm suggesting is that a meaningful part of that "live goodness" is due to something other than the physics of the sound waves and acoustics, it is due to the things happening in your brain that affect your sensory perception of the _total experience_. I, like probably most folks, have had those wonderful car/home listening sessions that were really "good" and brought back strong feelings associated with hearing the same song performed live .... but it was never _quite_ as "good" as the live experience, I can always remember some detail of the live-sound that's 'in-filled' by my brain but not present on the playback.

Now, if you eliminate those obtuse things happening in your brain that contribute to what I'm calling the 'total listening experience' for lack of a better term, then you're down to the physics of sound waves and acoustics. That quickly becomes either another subjective measure of "good" or an objective measure of "same-ness" when comparing live to recorded playback. Can one achieve "good" in a car? For some ears yes, for others no (subjective, by definition). Can one achieve "same" with _any_ recorded playback in any environment? IMHO, no.

The pursuit of subjective "good" sounding car systems is the raison d'etre of this forum. Good luck with your pursuit, and keep enjoying the specialness of listening to live music and the memories of that which will enhance your 'special recorded playback listening moments'.

_Santana at the Crater Fest; ZZ Top's opening set for the 'Stones; Leo Kottke at an intimate college auditorium; Leon Russell and the Shelter People at the H.I.C.; The Mothers with Sugarcane Harris and Jean Luc Ponty dueling on stage .... some of the many live performances I've been blessed to experience which sound cannot be reproduced by any recording or playback system. _


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

There is no way to achieve the " live " sound in a vehicle simply due to the fact that you are in a confined environment. That open and airy sound will be impossible to replicate due to reflections on the internal surfaces. Hmmmm. I wonder if it could be closer achieved with a convertible with the top down?


----------



## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

yep, but it aint gonna be cheap! A lot of people on here ,including myself have or are chasing that elusive goal. I've had seat time in a few cars in my 30yrs of doing car audio, including ones i've built, and can count on two hands how many came really close. you'll know it when you hear it,its called goosebumps, it takes a mix of: great equipment, great install and execution, great tuning, and lots of time and money.I've heard horn cars, regular setups, processed setups that all have come close,a 100%? no ,but so damn close.


----------



## car8961 (May 7, 2013)

Arguably good seating in the car. Yes it can sound better some of the time. Goose bumps on skin and electric up spine. Good luck.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> There is no way to achieve the " live " sound in a vehicle simply due to the fact that you are in a confined environment. That open and airy sound will be impossible to replicate due to reflections on the internal surfaces. Hmmmm. I wonder if it could be closer achieved with a convertible with the top down?


Inside of a garage, so that you get similar reflections?


----------



## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

You have to be able to absorb each first reflection point by 12db. It's just not possible in a car while still being able to drive it.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

95% of bar performances sounds like ****, if not 99%.
You`ve got lucky.
99% of cars sounds even worse... hunting for that 1% is most fun.


----------



## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

It's pretty easy to get the feel of a live venue with some properly implemented rear fill. You're not gonna get it with just a front stage, all the magic happens in the rear. A differential rear signal with a limited bandwidth centered around the midrange and enough delay to get beyond the haas effect does a very good job of imitating the sound from a venue. 

JBL implemented a feature for this in some of their old school amps and crossovers called "ambience control". You could make it sound like you're in a small bar all the way up to the royal albert hall with just the turn of a knob. Sony used to accomplish the same thing with their HX-DSP on older ES lines. 

Both the JBL and Sony implementations were pretty incredible if you were one of the few % of car audio enthusiasts that actually used the feature properly. The best part is that implementing it this way has no ill effects on your front stage. I've used both, and it really changed my view on rear fill. The vast majority of car audio enthusiasts have never tried or even had the chance to listen to a setup like this, so it yields a lot of naysayers talking down on it, but I urge you to try it. 

If you have a DSP and are using rear fill and want to try it out, give your rear channels a L-R signal, attenuate by about 6db, limit your bandwidth to about 300-4k, and put the delay at about 25ms. The L-R signal is key for making this work.


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

I've used a pair of JBL 2226HPL 15s in a custom bass guitar cabinet in the back of my minivan. The idea here was to have my bass guitar cab remain in the minivan to serve as sub section for my 3 way active system.

FWIW, the JBL 15s made quite a difference in the overall sound of the system. Live concert? Perhaps not. But the detail in kickdrums and midbass was noteworthy to say the least. 

2 things to note. 

1) Bass guitar cab is large, unless you have a minivan or SUV, point is moot. 
2) These have an FS of around 40Hz, I wasn't getting the pavement splitting low end which is ideal for sub frequency content (Bass Mekanik etc)

As far as overall sound, you'd have to hear to judge. I had them backing a pair of Hertz Mille ML165 in OEM door location, ML28s in pillars..

When listening to Vadrum (drummer who is backed by a full on symphony orchestra) the level of detail, especially where the drums are concerned was exceptional. 

3 way active, Pioneer DEH-80PRS, old school fosgate punch amps.

a pair of 15" PA speakers for car audio? worked for me.. especially helpful to me for the simple fact that I'd leave the cab in the van until showtime, then it was a simple matter of disconnecting the speakon connects and wheeling my car audio sub-section into a live venue, plug in my bass amp and bring the B-string with authority.. 

The only reason I switched to a pair JBL W12GTIs for low end was to achieve that sub 30Hz response found in electronic music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUpPYtN-g-U


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

I have a friend/client who was kind enough to bring in his drum kit and let me record him playing on a couple of occasions, and during one of these times, i purposefully closed my eyes, and listened to see if I had ever heard a car audio system reproduce the sound of a live drum kit.

The answer was no. Not just no, but HELL no. Not even close. 

Maybe played softly, MAYBE. 

But really jamming? Oh hell no. The speed, the impact, the power and attack of the live sound was like no stereo system ive ever heard in a car.

But like sqnut was saying, a recording in the first place has to capture those things for there to even be a chance at all of the stereo system then reproducing them.


----------



## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Niick said:


> I have a friend/client who was kind enough to bring in his drum kit and let me record him playing on a couple of occasions, and during one of these times, i purposefully closed my eyes, and listened to see if I had ever heard a car audio system reproduce the sound of a live drum kit.
> 
> The answer was no. Not just no, but HELL no. Not even close.
> 
> ...


I know this is subjective but you should hear what some good 12" or 15" pro audio subs can do in a minivan. Your comparison might just go from "Hell no", to just "no" , or even "close to it". i had two drummers in my van listening the Dave Brubeck's Take Five and they were very impressed to put it mildly.


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Recording and afterwords mastering by a sound engineer. How many talented sound engineers do you know? They have today unlimited rights to spoil every music based on his own subjective sound perception and music privilledges. If this matches to yours - you are happy. 

On the other hand - do not try to cheat your own brain. It is clever enough to reveal this . Your brain has been stressed before by changing one sound source with two (stereo channels). Are you sure that the placement of insruments on the recorded CD mirrors the real situation in the recording studio (scene, church, stadium)? How you could be sure that the music recorded on CD is not compiled from the parts recorded at different time and different locations (with its unique reflections)? Get together, why it does not sound real? That's why we all are fans of live music. But again, how far is sometimes a music sound during the concert due to wrong tuning of the concert hall? It is not an easy task, by the way. Would you reproduce such bad sound in a car? Many other questions to come...

What I am missing - my old DSP (EQ800) from Pioneer, which was able to add environmental impact on the music, just presets as stadium, church, concert hall, club (was my favorite). Almost twenty years ago ... but I still remember this great sound, not perfect but anyway.

There were some other devices (as Rocktron SCA112) which were capable to place the listener between the scene and audience, making almost real imagination of a real concert. Do not forget about "presence" button in a human brain. By amplifying some frequencies you may improve reality of a sound picture, moving vocal (i.e.) from or toward the listening position.

As one can see, the history of last 20-30 years is hiding a number of attempts to create a real concert atmosfere in a car, but some of them were born too early (due to low quality of realisation, bad PC capacity and absense of a digital world we know in our days).

Anyway, good luck in finding solutions to achive a real live sound in your car. It's worth trying.


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Another point - correct target curve. To my mind, it should comprise a compromise of a tonality loss and scene achievement. Right ratio of direct and reflected sounds at correct frequencies. Our brain is a good tool for masking some sounds by anothers, Sometimes - too good. But it is just psycho-acoustics, not just... but not to forget.

How human brain selects and compiles sound sources (just to mention - "party effect") - still a question sign. Many theories, but not one, which could satisfy everybody. 

Our brain can separate the direct sound from very early reflections (up till 1-2 msec). Measuring microphone - cannot. To create an image of a realy live sound in the car cabin is quite a difficult task.

Get some good reference and test CD's (at least WAV, FLAC files) and compare sound reproduction at home (presumably a reference one) with a sound in a car. Pay attention to reflections recorded, echoes, scene width and deepness. Try to repeat all this in a car. Long approximation is needed, time consuming. But anyway - the final result will be only approximation to the real sound. Live music in a car is a myth, sorry.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niick said:


> I have a friend/client who was kind enough to bring in his drum kit and let me record him playing on a couple of occasions, and during one of these times, i purposefully closed my eyes, and listened to see if I had ever heard a car audio system reproduce the sound of a live drum kit.
> 
> The answer was no. Not just no, but HELL no. Not even close.
> 
> ...


Take a listen/watch this video using a good set of headphones. Would like to hear any comments on how this Ron Tutt drum solo sounds to you, or anyone else for that matter.

https://youtu.be/ggkwZnZXo-c


----------



## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Alextaastrup said:


> Our brain can separate the direct sound from very early reflections (up till 1-2 msec). Measuring microphone - cannot. To create an image of a realy live sound in the car cabin is quite a difficult task.


A measurement microphone, even the cheapies, can absolutely measure acoustical events that occur fractions of milliseconds apart. Its the analysis machine or software that the microphone is feeding its signal into that may or may not be able to discern time domain data, those that can, 1-2 ms is nowhere near the limits of its resolution. The limits of its resolution is going to come down to the sample rate, so, for example, .02ms for a 48kHz SR. 

Where what you say is kinda true, is that if that measurement microphone is connected to an old timey RTA, then yes, no time domain data for you. Which means no phase data, which means it really shouldn't be used for acoustic analysis.


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Take a listen/watch this video using a good set of headphones. Would like to hear any comments on how this Ron Tutt drum solo sounds to you, or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> https://youtu.be/ggkwZnZXo-c



Generally speaking - good sound, but not close as we call a masterpiece of recording. 

It seems to be a live music recorded in the room/hall with quite a significant reverberation. I could feel a certain distance to the drum set, but missing exact location of its components. Most probably it was recorded by one microphone placed at a distance of several meters, therefore high frequencies are not so impressive and kickbass is not going too low. 

Hard to evaluate based on youtube


----------



## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Niick said:


> A measurement microphone, even the cheapies, can absolutely measure acoustical events that occur fractions of milliseconds apart. Its the analysis machine or software that the microphone is feeding its signal into that may or may not be able to discern time domain data, those that can, 1-2 ms is nowhere near the limits of its resolution. The limits of its resolution is going to come down to the sample rate, so, for example, .02ms for a 48kHz SR.
> 
> Where what you say is kinda true, is that if that measurement microphone is connected to an old timey RTA, then yes, no time domain data for you. Which means no phase data, which means it really shouldn't be used for acoustic analysis.


Agree, even a cheap mic can measure as quick as fractions of miliseconds (within its working frequency area indeed), not a problem with it. It is more interesting, how these measured data would be interpreted afterwords. Do we really need to fight against very early reflections if our brain (everybody's brain - due to psycho-acoustics) will easily separate these signals from the sound and give you correct sound image? That's what I mean - not technological limitation, but more interpretation of measurement results obtained during the test. It will definetely influence the DSP algorithm, but not measurement techniques.


----------



## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm surprised no one mentioned the compression of recordings that artists requested to have their tracks sound louder. That kills dynamic range of recordings more so than anything else. You almost need a blend of traditional speakers and pro audio drivers to achieve the effect. If you are after the impactful reproduction of live bands, you'll need a few things: An uncompressed recording of a live performance, an impactful set of low frequency speakers(midbass and sub), highly detailed mid range & tweeters, and tuning for that effect. The hdtracks sampler that had the orchestra track recording of "The dance of the snow maidens" which is extremely dynamic and impactful. My RAV gets close with my RF T212D2 in, but it looses a lot of sub frequency detail. The impressive impact is there though.


----------



## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

There are so many variables here, the question itself I think is "loaded" 

I chimed in with my experience using JBL Pro Audio 15s for the simple fact that they did add a certain quality to the overall sound which I wasn't getting from car audio style subwoofers. There were dramatic improvements, especially to kick drums and bass guitar. Reminded me of the old club days and a club in particular which we frequented. The sound in this club was legendary. 

while I'm not saying my sound system is legendary, I'm saying the addition of the JBL 15s definitely took me back (where bass and drums are concerned)

As far as the question from the OP.. I've heard live performances which were horseshit, I've heard live performances which were remarkable. I've heard small clubs sound great, heard small clubs sound like ass.. I was at Ozzfest a few years back, the whole stadium sounded like **** BOTH STAGES..

Will car audio be able to recreate the live sound experience? That's all subjective, would depend on way too many variables, including your question and it's literal meaning..

Can one replicate the timbre, tone, force and impact as well as subtle nuances and harmonics of a drum set? I should hope so, it's what these producers and studio engineers are getting paid big bucks to do, it's what billions in RnD are being spent on developing mics, speakers, recording equipment effects ETC..


----------



## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

There are live performances that sound like crap due to equipment, setup or the venue itself

As we all know there are Steve systems that can't reproduce good music no matter how good the recording is.... And there are also systems that can get pretty close to a excellent live performance

The best home stere system I have hears was a $200,000+ system and it was back in 1992, 18 in subs woofers, two amplifiers the size of dinner tables... It was a incredible experience.. First time hearing a home system go below 20hz... That system I feel could duplicate a live performance.

My home system which cost me less the $5k no, can't replicate..... 

Same with car systems, I would bet a few of the best car systems could replicate a great live recording. Most of us we might reach 70% of the live recording sq.... But that extra few percent costs lots of $$$$


----------



## Luminol (Jan 19, 2016)

My step dad is an audiophile and has spent on his home stereo what many people spend on their homes. Cables that cost more than my car. No joke. Listening to a setup like that is something you can't really put into words. I have heard his various systems sound better than the live shows with thee same songs. Open air, good venue or not. When you get to that level of sound reproduction imo the venue would have to be right as well as the equipment being used and the person or people doing the mixing in order to match that sound quality. It tends to be big names or groups that can match that kind of quality. Like a nations orchestra, ballet or someone like Paul Simon or Clapton. People or groups with the know how and finances to make their performances sound as good as they can. You certainly don't get it from 50 cent or Nickelback.


----------



## muzikmanwi (Dec 25, 2014)

Luminol said:


> My step dad is an audiophile and has spent on his home stereo what many people spend on their homes. Cables that cost more than my car. No joke. Listening to a setup like that is something you can't really put into words. I have heard his various systems sound better than the live shows with thee same songs. Open air, good venue or not. When you get to that level of sound reproduction imo the venue would have to be right as well as the equipment being used and the person or people doing the mixing in order to match that sound quality. It tends to be big names or groups that can match that kind of quality. Like a nations orchestra, ballet or someone like Paul Simon or Clapton. People or groups with the know how and finances to make their performances sound as good as they can. You certainly don't get it from 50 cent or Nickelback.


I agree with this 100%, but most systems won't sound like that.


----------

