# Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers



## 12v Electronics

*Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Hybrid Audio Technologies has just announced the release of a new line of speakers called the "Imagine" model. This is an "entry level" (loosely worded) speaker set that will allow people to get acquainted with the Hybrid Audio Technologies product and will fill a void in HAT's ~$200 component speaker market.

As it has been proven, Hybrid Audio Technologies builds some of the best speakers in the world, and according to the testers of the Imagine 6.5": "it rivals competitor’s products costing twice and three times as much"

The first product release will be a 6.5" set which includes a 6.5" mid and a "convertible" tweeter that can be mounted as a coaxial or removed and used as a component set with an included phase plug that replaces the tweeter for component use. Included in the set are grilles, mounting hardware and precision matched crossovers. 

Here are a few spy pics of the original prototype that I stole from a tester . The production versions will have reverse roll surrounds that improved the cone damping a bit over the prototypes shown according to the designer. 




























According to the designer: "I spent a LOT of time voicing these speakers, playing with crossovers to get a smooth response and not be too bright (so common in today’s coaxials where there is no tweeter attenuation). I also played a lot with tweeter phase with respect to midbass phase, and have this set dialed in to sound as good as most other company’s $500.00 kits."

I have not had the chance to hear them yet, but am anxiously awaiting. 

ETA is December 2009.


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## IBcivic

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

HAT stocking stuffers...
I cannot wait to read the reviews


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## MiniVanMan

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



12v Electronics said:


> As it has been proven, Hybrid Audio Technologies builds some of the best speakers in the world, and according to the testers of the Imagine 6.5": "it rivals competitor’s products costing twice and three times as much"


Who, what, when, where and how? 

Who made those quotes? Who did the testing?

What testing was done? What equipment?

When was the testing done? 

Where was the testing done?

How was the testing done? Under what conditions? 



12v Electronics said:


> I also played a lot with tweeter phase with respect to midbass phase, and have this set dialed in to sound as good as most other company’s $500.00 kits."


Really? I mean WOW!! The designer took "phase" into consideration when designing the crossover. Whoulda thunk it?

How about going less on the marketing and salemanship and giving us some real meat about these speakers.


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## t3sn4f2

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

:snacks:


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## chad

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



MiniVanMan said:


> How about going less on the marketing and salemanship and giving us some real meat about these speakers.


That is all of the info I have right now. I will get more up when I get it.


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## astrochex

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I am pleased to see this, 'cause it puts HAT in my price range.


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## fredridge

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

when they did the voicing, did they do it in coaxial form with the driver pointed at the guys ankles? I heard somewhere once that it might have an impact on the way it sounds


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## BigRed

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

No, the testing was done in a anechoic chamber with a 200k rta, and average measurements were taken every degree from 30 to 90. After several months of testing, they came to the conclusion to TRUST YOUR EARS  lol A car is a very unique environment


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## MiniVanMan

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



BigRed said:


> No, the testing was done in a anechoic chamber with a 200k rta, and average measurements were taken every degree from 30 to 90. After several months of testing, they came to the conclusion to TRUST YOUR EARS  lol A car is a very unique environment


But they're selling a precision "voiced" passive crossover.  

Since that's part of the marketing campaign for this series of speakers, it's perfectly acceptable to call them out on it, and ask how they determined a uniform crossover design would work for every vehicle.



> "I spent a LOT of time voicing these speakers, playing with crossovers to get a smooth response and not be too bright (so common in today’s coaxials where there is no tweeter attenuation). I also played a lot with tweeter phase with respect to midbass phase, and have this set dialed in to sound as good as most other company’s $500.00 kits."


Their words, not mine. Seems like a lot of wasted time for a crossover that will only work in one car. I can guarantee the customer is paying a premium for that design work, and the components, and it's not priced at cost to HAT. 

I'm so sick of this trust your ears crap. When spending hundreds of dollars on a speaker, you should have access to a lot more information than just "trust your ears". I should be able to make an educated decision on the purchase with the "trusting my ears" as the FINAL determination of whether a speaker fits my needs, NOT THE FIRST!!


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## BigRed

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Hey minivan, I don't know why you are getting so upset, but I don't make the speakers, nor design the crossover. What I do know is that I've listened to speakers that had great graphs, extremely low 2nd and 3rd order distortion, beautiful specs, with long winded lip service about how their crossover topology was formulated that flat out sounded like ****!!


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## Oliver

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



BigRed said:


> Hey minivan, I don't know why you are getting so upset, sounded like ****!!


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## fredridge

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Look to your next post, that was my point



BigRed said:


> No, the testing was done in a anechoic chamber with a 200k rta, and average measurements were taken every degree from 30 to 90. After several months of testing, they came to the conclusion to TRUST YOUR EARS  lol A car is a very unique environment



You are right every car is a unique environment and even if has great characteristics in an anechoic chamber, how will that be impacted when there are set in a coaxial fashion in the doors mounted near your ankles.

I would think that something mounted that way would be far off axis and would require a brighter tweeter say than if it were mounted on a dash or sail panel.





BigRed said:


> Hey minivan, I don't know why you are getting so upset, but I don't make the speakers, nor design the crossover. What I do know is that I've listened to speakers that had great graphs, extremely low 2nd and 3rd order distortion, beautiful specs, with long winded lip service about how their crossover topology was formulated that flat out sounded like ****!!


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## t3sn4f2

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I don't trust my ears for ****.


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I'm sorry, I thought I posted this in the "Industry News " forum not the "Speculation, axe-grinding and general bitching" forum. 

It is interesting how much nonsense can be stirred up without any actual specs posted.


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## fredridge

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I thought this was being posted by a dealer, not some guy who is being an ass. 

Do you find in general anyone who has concerns about how a product is voiced or how it will sound when it is used to be a problem?

This is one of the most asinine statements you could make as someone trying to sell a product, I might have been interested in these, but mostly was seriously looking at those tweeters for over $500.

probably much of the nonsense is because of the lack of specs, which generally lead to speculation. 

I have no personal axe to grind with HAT, in fact, as said until you posted this crap I was looking at those special edition tweeters. 

and as for the general bitching, it probably would have been completely avoided without the last quote from the designer. 

I appreciate your willingness to call people out for their bitching, but make sure that when you do it, it is not in just another form of bitching.





12v Electronics said:


> I'm sorry, I thought I posted this in the "Industry News " forum not the "Speculation, axe-grinding and general bitching" forum.
> 
> It is interesting how much nonsense can be stirred up without any actual specs posted.


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I's ok, I don't mind the ribbing. I just would like the opportunity to see the final design and actual specs before I get the feedback that this thread has created. 

All I will say is that I have heard many other manufacturer's ~$200 component set's and have been less than satisfied. Hopefully this set will give me a reason to celebrate.


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## Hillbilly SQ

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

So, when these crossovers were specially "voiced", were the drivers on the left side severely off axis and the ones on the right somewhat on axis and to the side? I think it's safe to say that most of the people using these entry level speakers will have them thrown in the doors in the traditional "calf blaster" mode. However, if set up to work best off axis and bouncing off of everything in its path they're not gonna sound so nice on axis more than likely. Just sayin


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



Hillbilly SQ said:


> So, when these crossovers were specially "voiced", were the drivers on the left side severely off axis and the ones on the right somewhat on axis and to the side? I think it's safe to say that most of the people using these entry level speakers will have them thrown in the doors in the traditional "calf blaster" mode. However, if set up to work best off axis and bouncing off of everything in its path they're not gonna sound so nice on axis more than likely. Just sayin


I can't answer that right now, as I did not get a chance to auditition them yet. 

I think it is safe to say that these will be a great improvement over the standard "calf-blasters" as found in your local stereo shop. 

I also will tell you that I have petitioned HAT to build a product in this price range for a long time. Although many of my customers would love to do HAT in their vehicle, their wallets may not let them. 

If this sounds like I hope it will, it will be a great addition to the line-up. I cannot wait.


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## David_Edwards

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

wow....just wow


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## MiniVanMan

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Here's a simple question. Are the crossover the same for left and right, or are they different?

It's not bitching, it's a legitimate line of questioning about the process in accordance with a statement made by evidently one of HAT's engineers.

This is where you start to bash me and try to discredit me, and dodge the questions without offering any useful information. 

I'm not speculating ANYTHING. I don't have to speculate. I asked a simple question that has yet to be answered. *You're going out on forums spouting off about how potentially great a new series of speakers are WITHOUT having heard them, without any specifications, OR any information on how they're designed.* Yet you want us to get excited because you PROMISE us they're worth more the $200.00. I'm not saying they're not. I'm asking a very simple question.

What did I say that could be construed as bitching? You're welcome to quote anything I said and refute it in an intelligent manner.

I doubt I'll see any answers, but I expect the personal attacks will soon be forthcoming.


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## fredridge

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Honestly, this would have been a great and reasonable response to the other posts. And I appreciate this as a response, it goes a long way to avoid the arguing.


here is my impression of what a more mediated response would have been.
" I don't know those answers right now, I am waiting just like you. I have heard all the other HAT stuff and they have done a great job with those and I am guessing they will do the same with these. Let's wait and see how they sound, but I am very excited about them producing a product in this price range."



12v Electronics said:


> I's ok, I don't mind the ribbing. I just would like the opportunity to see the final design and actual specs before I get the feedback that this thread has created.
> 
> All I will say is that I have heard many other manufacturer's ~$200 component set's and have been less than satisfied. Hopefully this set will give me a reason to celebrate.


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## Coheednme13

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Well I'm excited about these can't wait to hear them. My fiance needs something non-factory in the rear deck. She'll soon have clarus in the front stage so I need something a little cheaper to round things out.


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## Scott Buwalda

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Hey guys:

Legitimate questions. Legitimate questions for any 12 volt company and any new product. Hopefully each and every new product on this forum gets the same treatment. Does it?

And before I begin, this thread was started by a HAT dealer that has to feed his family. Love it or hate it, there WILL be flowery language; this is called consumerism. The thread was also posted by a Supporting Vendor in the *Industry News *section, not the general forums. Furthermore, the thread as I read it was meant to be a tickler for what's coming down the line, not meant to be a definitive review, test, or posting of graphs and parameters. It's basically a pre-press release. This kind of stuff happens every day, in every facet of our economy. The post should have been taken at face value..."HAT has a new entry-level line coming out, and they feel it's a pretty good offering for the price." That's what should have been taken away from this, not a discussion about precision-matched crossovers, independent testing, etc. Finally, none of what was posted here was stated as official HAT press; it's what was gleaned from various sources. When the product launches, everyone will know it because there will be official word from the factory that it has launched. In fact, there will be another post, right here in the Industry News section, to this effect. Then, and only then will there be specifications for every graph-reader to pour over. 

Imagine is an entry-level component set/coaxial that retails at $200.00. There's not a "precision matched" crossover included. No one said that. Like basically every product in the $200 retail price range, the midbass plays full-range and the tweeter is capped. Making this work with a minimum of parts is extremely difficult because the tweeter's cap not only has to be relegated to filtering the tweeter to ensure good thermal power handling, but also for attenuation with respect to the midbass, and linear frequency response. Plus, the selection needs to work both on- and off-axis, and well as in coaxial or component set mode; this is where the phase discussion came into play above. All of this is an art as much as it is a science. And since there is no coil on the midbass, its design elements for proper damping and linear response were paramount. The midbass basically needed to sound excellent without filtering or board-mounted equalization, which required quite a bit of consideration about forward verses reverse-roll surround, cone damping character and material selection, selection of cone treatment, cone curvature, geometry of the extended phase plug pole piece, and etc. 

...all of this work for a set that is intended to retail at $200.00, and includes all parts necessary for coaxial or component set operation (including midbass phase plugs and tweeter hardware), grilles, connection wiring, etc. Our M.O. is attention to detail, good pricing amongst our competition, and good performance, and this set is no different. 

All final voicing was done in-car. Twelve different cars to be exact of all shapes and sizes. Final voicing was not done in a laboratory.

Like I stated above, we (meaning HAT and its dealers) think this is a pretty neat product that fills a gap in our product line. Nothing more should be read into this thread. It's just press from a dealer; that's all. When we're ready to launch this $200.00 set of speakers, we'll post on our website all of the parameters and data we deem appropriate for the market that will purchase this product.

Scott


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## MiniVanMan

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



Scott Buwalda said:


> Hey guys:
> 
> Legitimate questions. Legitimate questions for any 12 volt company and any new product. Hopefully each and every new product on this forum gets the same treatment. Does it?


From me? Yes they do.




Scott Buwalda said:


> And before I begin, this thread was started by a HAT dealer that has to feed his family.


He doesn't care if I eat caviar or ramen, so why the attempt to make me feel sorry for him?



Scott Buwalda said:


> Love it or hate it, there WILL be flowery language; this is called consumerism.


Totally my right to get "flowery" language translated. It's been my experience that many dealers and vendors expect us to take their words for everything with no explanation on their side other than said "flowery" language.

I understand marketing. But coming onto a forum known for being very critical and posting a bunch of useless statements about a product line, regardless of the section it's posted in will should not surprise you that things get inflamed.



Scott Buwalda said:


> The thread was also posted by a Supporting Vendor in the *Industry News *section, not the general forums.


I don't know what you're saying here.  Because of the section, HAT products are exempt from any debate or lines of questioning?



Scott Buwalda said:


> Furthermore, the thread as I read it was meant to be a tickler for what's coming down the line, not meant to be a definitive review, test, or posting of graphs and parameters. It's basically a pre-press release. This kind of stuff happens every day, in every facet of our economy. The post should have been taken at face value..."HAT has a new entry-level line coming out, and they feel it's a pretty good offering for the price." That's what should have been taken away from this, not a discussion about precision-matched crossovers, independent testing, etc.


A tickler is a supporting dealer saying "Hey guys, look what's coming down the pipeline". Post some pictures and let the speculation begin. I guess, yeah, I got tickled all right. If no bull **** was said, then there would have been nothing to spark the debate. 



Scott Buwalda said:


> Finally, none of what was posted here was stated as official HAT press; it's what was gleaned from various sources. When the product launches, everyone will know it because there will be official word from the factory that it has launched. In fact, there will be another post, right here in the Industry News section, to this effect.


Then don't quote. The issue arose when a quote was referenced. This was not a pre-press release. It was a pre-marketing campaign. A pre-press release is once again, "hey guys, something special is coming down the lines for HAT". That's a teaser, and a tickler. Adding fluff only creates problems. 



Scott Buwalda said:


> Then, and only then will there be specifications for every graph-reader to pour over.


"Graph-reader"??? You say this like it's a bad thing. You mean understanding the engineering behind a loudspeaker is a bad thing? Doesn't matter, because not nearly enough information will be presented anyway. Of course, this isn't exclusive to HAT. In fact, NOBODY presents as much as I'd like. That's the industry. Yeppers, I'm the unpleaseable consumer. The one every marketing manager absolutely hates.



Scott Buwalda said:


> Imagine is an entry-level component set/coaxial that retails at $200.00.


This is probably one of the only three sentences that should have been included in this "pre-press release".



Scott Buwalda said:


> There's not a "precision matched" crossover included. No one said that. Like basically every product in the $200 retail price range, the midbass plays full-range and the tweeter is capped.


So, where did this quote come from?


> "I spent a LOT of time voicing these speakers, playing with crossovers to get a smooth response and not be too bright (so common in today’s coaxials where there is no tweeter attenuation). I also played a lot with tweeter phase with respect to midbass phase, and have this set dialed in to sound as good as most other company’s $500.00 kits."


 This is the quote that set this entire thing in motion because it's complete bull ****, and I know it, you know it, and anybody with half a brain knows it. 



Scott Buwalda said:


> "Making this work with a minimum of parts is extremely difficult because the tweeter's cap not only has to be relegated to filtering the tweeter to ensure good thermal power handling, but also for attenuation with respect to the midbass, and linear frequency response. Plus, the selection needs to work both on- and off-axis, and well as in coaxial or component set mode; this is where the phase discussion came into play above. All of this is an art as much as it is a science. And since there is no coil on the midbass, its design elements for proper damping and linear response were paramount. The midbass basically needed to sound excellent without filtering or board-mounted equalization, which required quite a bit of consideration about forward verses reverse-roll surround, cone damping character and material selection, selection of cone treatment, cone curvature, geometry of the extended phase plug pole piece, and etc.


See, there's some meat here. Here we're not talking about crossover design, but rather the driver design themselves. "We made a speaker with very smooth upper end roll off so we could simplify crossover design and keep cost low to the consumer".

I can write an entire campaign for for just using a cap for a crossover given driver selection/design is appropriate. What you don't do with just a cap is "voice" a crossover. Especially for a car where the phasing will change from car to car, as well as CtC spacing. 

You can see all over this site and others where I recommend 12 db on mids and 18 db on tweeters when you have a largish CtC spacing between mid and tweeter. This is the same as 0 and 6 db. Same concept, and mathematically works out the same. But again, and this is an attack at marketing, stating that an incredible amount of time was spent finding one cap value. Not true. Though, an argument that driver selection and design did take a considerable amount of time to keep crossover components low, and ultimately cost effective is very valid. 



Scott Buwalda said:


> ...all of this work for a set that is intended to retail at $200.00, and includes all parts necessary for coaxial or component set operation (including midbass phase plugs and tweeter hardware), grilles, connection wiring, etc. Our M.O. is attention to detail, good pricing amongst our competition, and good performance, and this set is no different.


Here's where I get my feathers ruffled again, but take it with a grain of salt, because as you stated, this is just the way it's done. You're not doing us any favors by designing this product line. The wording is intended to make us believe that you really care about our pocket books. You don't. You'd really prefer that we open up our pocket books and buy an existing line. This is where marketing irritates me. Marketing is designed to create a "need" for something generally unnecessary. Fine, it can be argued that the entire car audio hobby is unnecessary, and it would be hard to lose that argument. Either way though, ultimately you want our money. You want to spend as little money as possible to make as much money as possible. That's the way it's done and while it chafes me, I have to live with it. What I would ask of you is to understand your audience here. Though, I may be only one of a VERY few around here any more that actually care about the real nitty gritty of this hobby. The above quote is nothing more than marketing and salesmanship. 



Scott Buwalda said:


> All final voicing was done in-car. Twelve different cars to be exact of all shapes and sizes. Final voicing was not done in a laboratory.


"Voicing" again. You found one cap value that provided a very rough compromise.



Scott Buwalda said:


> Like I stated above, we (meaning HAT and its dealers) think this is a pretty neat product that fills a gap in our product line. Nothing more should be read into this thread. It's just press from a dealer; that's all. When we're ready to launch this $200.00 set of speakers, we'll post on our website all of the parameters and data we deem appropriate for the market that will purchase this product.
> 
> Scott


I think all that needed to be said was that HAT was going to introduce a component set at the $200.00 price point. People would have peed themselves over that alone. 

You know what you're doing, and probably make a pretty healthy living doing so. I just wish you shared your knowledge more, and didn't give in to this "need" you feel you have to do things the way every other company does it.


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## chad

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



MiniVanMan said:


> I think all that needed to be said was that HAT was going to introduce a component set at the $200.00 price point. People would have peed themselves over that alone.


I actually got a little excited over the price, especially considering my venture BACK INTO DIY with this car consisted of morel MDT 12's and the CA18RNX, albeit both have been replaced with less expensive and better drivers for the app. Still, that was around 200 bucks. 

IF, IF, the HAT drivers perform well on their own then using them in an active setup would be somewhat affordable to someone wanting to go active. Especially since tweet cups are supplied and there are several different mounting options to reduce fab time for those who are just not fab savvy. 

Chad


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## Oliver

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I think you got quite a bit of info Gary [ as much as Scott is willing to divulge at this point ].

You heard it from the horses mouth, too !

Chad, these will probably do the trick for you [ based on some of the drivers he has brought forth , the L4 and L1 Pro to be exact ]


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## chad

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



a$$hole said:


> Chad, these will probably do the trick for you [ based on some of the drivers he has brought forth , the L4 and L1 Pro to be exact ]


I'm happy with my current drivers, ALL of which total cost less than 200 bucks


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## Oliver

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Hopefully they will fill that niche for the guys who are trying the Dayton 180's , ID OEMs ,etc..,

They try some things that never seem to pan out


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## Scott Buwalda

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

MiniVan: This may come as a complete shock, but I agree with everything you have said here. I digress on the voicing comment though, but that's only because I was the one doing the voicing. When I say voicing, I mean the whole "ball of wax", from cone geometry, damping, and treatment, to tweeter materials, impregnation materials and techniques, diameter...all the way down to voicing different cap values. It sounds extremely easy, but it really wasn't. For example, changing from a forward roll to a reverse roll surround changed everything. Alas, I suspect one could argue that sitting one afternoon with a lap full of capacitors and finding the best compromise is really easy, but sadly, when I say voicing, I mean all materials science applications.



MiniVanMan said:


> I think all that needed to be said was that HAT was going to introduce a component set at the $200.00 price point. People would have peed themselves over that alone.


If I had the authority to change the thread, I'd change it to exactly that...well, except for the peeing themselves comment. LOL

Finally,



MiniVanMan said:


> You know what you're doing, and probably make a pretty healthy living doing so. I just wish you shared your knowledge more, and didn't give in to this "need" you feel you have to do things the way every other company does it.


I hear what you're saying. Honestly, I believe it to be a problem of there being too many car audio forums. New one's pop up every week. I wish it was 2001 again where there was sounddomain, carsound, and elitecaraudio. It'd be so much simpler to "divide time." It doesn't help reading irritating threads about nonsense, either. Those that are left here must have the patience of Job. 

As for making a pretty healthy living...I don't live in a cardboard box. But I wouldn't say that I am loaded either. Squarely middle class here. The mean house price in my community is $150,000 and I drive a seven year-old car. The car was a recent purchase. Up until May of this year I drove a 1993 Nissan 240SX that didn't have heat or air. No, my feet are planted pretty firmly on the ground.

As for the "need"...speaking of consumers that are likely NOT on this board, that's how it works. Sad, but true. I don't have the marketing budget to put full-page ads in Performance Auto & Sound ($4,000/month). I can't even afford a 1/6 page ad ($750/month). So I rely on first-hand experiences around the net, and an occassional press release (the former being much more effective on this board than the latter). 

Scott


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## MiniVanMan

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



a$$hole said:


> I think you got quite a bit of info Gary [ as much as Scott is willing to divulge at this point ].
> 
> You heard it from the horses mouth, too !
> 
> Chad, these will probably do the trick for you [ based on some of the drivers he has brought forth , the L4 and L1 Pro to be exact ]


I think the key point to take out of all that is the comment on mid design.



a$$hole said:


> Hopefully they will fill that niche for the guys who are trying the Dayton 180's , ID OEMs ,etc..,
> 
> They try some things that never seem to pan out


DIY drivers like the RS180 can be complicated and require a good bit of knowledge to implement correctly in any application. Their cost to performance ratio is excellent, but their usability is low. The same can be said for a lot of DIY stuff.

Car audio approaches driver design somewhat differently. A lot more damping is used. Poly cones, paper cones, etc. I can understand the approach. You want to avoid selling a product that has an inherent artifact, like a massive cone breakup like the RS180, where the artifact can be exaggerated by the acoustic space, in this case a vehicles interior. 

So, I don't think Scott's doing a bad thing here. I'd like to get my hands on that mid and give it a good thrashing. I can speculate on the compromises taken to keep cost down. But they'd be speculation. 

I don't know how much Scott was trying to divulge, but he divulged quite a bit in this paragraph.



> "Making this work with a minimum of parts is extremely difficult because the tweeter's cap not only has to be relegated to filtering the tweeter to ensure good thermal power handling, but also for attenuation with respect to the midbass, and linear frequency response. Plus, the selection needs to work both on- and off-axis, and well as in coaxial or component set mode; this is where the phase discussion came into play above. All of this is an art as much as it is a science. And since there is no coil on the midbass, its design elements for proper damping and linear response were paramount. The midbass basically needed to sound excellent without filtering or board-mounted equalization, which required quite a bit of consideration about forward verses reverse-roll surround, cone damping character and material selection, selection of cone treatment, cone curvature, geometry of the extended phase plug pole piece, and etc.


Now, I don't know if the mid is going to be inspiring. I'd like to know how it would do in a side by side with a CA18RNX,or P18RNX. The Seas Reference line is in the same price range (maybe a bit more expensive), and the paper and poly cones performs much in the way that Scott says his Imagine mid does. At that point it would come down to motor topology. How much abuse can either handle. I know the RNX motor is a solid performer where you pretty much pick your cone material and can take some abuse.


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## MiniVanMan

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



Scott Buwalda said:


> MiniVan: This may come as a complete shock, but I agree with everything you have said here. I digress on the voicing comment though, but that's only because I was the one doing the voicing. When I say voicing, I mean the whole "ball of wax", from cone geometry, damping, and treatment, to tweeter materials, impregnation materials and techniques, diameter...all the way down to voicing different cap values. It sounds extremely easy, but it really wasn't. For example, changing from a forward roll to a reverse roll surround changed everything. Alas, I suspect one could argue that sitting one afternoon with a lap full of capacitors and finding the best compromise is really easy, but sadly, when I say voicing, I mean all materials science applications.


Doesn't sound easy at all when you design from the ground up. Nothing ever goes right until about the 30th try (at least for me). "Voicing" is just such a cliche "audiophile" term. I don't like it. Proper crossover design is proper crossover design. No need to rehash that though. 

It's no secret that I don't like overpriced anything. I'm a cheap bastard. I've also never liked the distinction between a car, home or pro audio driver. A well designed and well built driver is exactly that. A poorly designed driver is exactly that. Yeah, each may have subtle differences that suit a particular environment better, i.e. see my comments on damping and smooth roll offs for car audio, but ultimately, it's a motor and a cone.

So, if this "Imagine" line can actually compete with the DIY offerings like the aforementioned CA18RNX then kudos to you. I have no problem, with taking a simplistic, minimalist approach to design. By compete, I mean in objective analysis. I just don't put much stock in subjective, personal reviews where I can't confirm the source. Though I know you just about have to. THEN it comes down to personal preference. 

I wish you the best of luck with this line. I hope it performs to a high standard well above the price tag.


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## Scott Buwalda

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Thanks dude. 

Scott


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



MiniVanMan said:


> It's not bitching, it's a legitimate line of questioning about the process in accordance with a statement made by evidently one of HAT's engineers.
> 
> This is where you start to bash me and try to discredit me, and dodge the questions without offering any useful information.
> 
> I'm not speculating ANYTHING. I don't have to speculate. I asked a simple question that has yet to be answered. *You're going out on forums spouting off about how potentially great a new series of speakers are WITHOUT having heard them, without any specifications, OR any information on how they're designed.* Yet you want us to get excited because you PROMISE us they're worth more the $200.00. I'm not saying they're not. I'm asking a very simple question.
> 
> What did I say that could be construed as bitching? You're welcome to quote anything I said and refute it in an intelligent manner.
> 
> I doubt I'll see any answers, but I expect the personal attacks will soon be forthcoming.


Here is where the bitching comment came from: 


MiniVanMan said:


> I'm so sick of this trust your ears crap. When spending hundreds of dollars on a speaker, you should have access to a lot more information than just "trust your ears". I should be able to make an educated decision on the purchase with the "trusting my ears" as the FINAL determination of whether a speaker fits my needs, NOT THE FIRST!!


You will be able to make an educated decision once you actually see the specs. They simply are not available yet.




MiniVanMan said:


> He doesn't care if I eat caviar or ramen, so why the attempt to make me feel sorry for him?
> 
> Totally my right to get "flowery" language translated. It's been my experience that many dealers and vendors expect us to take their words for everything with no explanation on their side other than said "flowery" language.
> 
> I understand marketing. But coming onto a forum known for being very critical and posting a bunch of useless statements about a product line, regardless of the section it's posted in will should not surprise you that things get inflamed.


I would love for everyone to be eating caviar, but I really don't see what that has to do with anything. There is no reason to feel sorry for me as I am not asking for any pity. 

Looking at the original post, I don't really see anything flowery about it, but if I did I would hope that you would be able to sort through it and pick out the information relevant to you. 



MiniVanMan said:


> This was not a pre-press release. It was a pre-marketing campaign. A pre-press release is once again, "hey guys, something special is coming down the lines for HAT". That's a teaser, and a tickler. Adding fluff only creates problems.


You can call it what you like. This was merely an announcement and placed in the proper forum. Besides, if I wanted to add fluff, I would have because I have earned the right to do so by supporting this forum as an advertiser and supporting vendor.




MiniVanMan said:


> I think all that needed to be said was that HAT was going to introduce a component set at the $200.00 price point.


I did.


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## F1Audio

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I will buy a set for $200


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## subwoofery

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

My friend is interested in this but he needs more infos. 
Specs would be nice 
Xover points 
Power handling 
And such... 

Thank you 
Kelvin


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## ALL4SQ

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

I'm picture crazy today! 










Hybrid audio link,click me, click me!


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## impact

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

based off of all other previous Hybrid products this entry level set should be far from entry level but boast an entry level price. Can't wait to get a few sets of these in the shop


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



impact said:


> based off of all other previous Hybrid products this entry level set should be far from entry level but boast an entry level price. Can't wait to get a few sets of these in the shop


I have had them for about a week and really like them. I have only had them installed in a small display enclosure, but they are very impressive. (especially for the price)

You will not be sorry at all. I am about to place my second order.


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## chad

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



12v Electronics said:


> I have had them for about a week and really like them. I have only had them installed in a small display enclosure,


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## 12v Electronics

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

^were is the SMD peeing pic? LOL!


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## chad

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Sir Ant's face-palm is gonna be legendary.

Especially now that google is fistfarking my photobucket account.


DYYMA face-palm

facepalmDIYMA

DIYMAfacepalm

Yep I just did that


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## czechm8

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

This thread has been entertaining in so many ways!


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## freemind

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

If anyone in the Seattle area has a set of these, I'd love to hear them.


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## astrochex

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



freemind said:


> If anyone in the Seattle area has a set of these, I'd love to hear them.


Contact Scott to find a dealer in your area.


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## David_Edwards

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*

Since you are in Seattle, our Team captain Bill Pleasant lives there. He should be able to help you out.

Dave Freisen, our rep in that area, can also help you out. 1-206-369-3968 is his cell phone number.


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## tard

*Re: Hybrid Audio Technologies announces the "Imagine" line of component speakers*



BigRed said:


> ...What I do know is that I've listened to speakers that had great graphs, extremely low 2nd and 3rd order distortion, beautiful specs, with long winded lip service about how their crossover topology was formulated that flat out sounded like ****!!


so what you're saying is that the preachings from the church of parameters don't float, even with a life jacket, in the real world car audio application?

that graphs made from sine sweeps and pink noise fail to tell the whole story of how the speaker will sound/perform under the stress and dynamics of music at elevated levels?

that tests done in an open field and perfect environment may have little bearing for depicting what the results will be in our PITA car environment?

you really mean that we should use our ears to listen and not our eyes to convince ourselves that it can't sound like crap because on paper it looks good?




you know what the smiley section really needs is a smiley stirring a pot.


:lurk:


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