# ground in a home



## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

It appears what is causing my ground loop is not having any grounds in my plugs. I am not electrician and do not want to risk burning down my home.

What is a safe way I can add grounds to my plugs? What I am thinking is that I can get one of those 3 --> 2 adapters with the little ring, and then connect a wire to the ring that is screwed into a piece of metal.

Are there better, safe suggestions? I would feel terrible if I burned down my folk's house over some receiver.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Do you know any electricians that you can call?

That'd be my first method. Unless we have any licensed guys here, there may be some 'codes' you need to be up on.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I wish there was something I could just buy. I see this thing called an isolation transformer, but I don't know enough about it.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Like what the deal. You got all your gear plugged in to the same outlet for the most part[is ok if so , can get into it more but not now].

You have a humm problem?

Lets get a run down.

Usen a powered sub?

Got cable tv/ cable box?


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Unless we have any licensed guys here, there may be some 'codes' you need to be up on.


OOH, OOH, ME, ME!!!

What type of wiring is in the home? You might have to jump up in an attic to see, but it may or may not help.

If you have BX or metal clad wiring, there is a good chance the box (assuming it is metal) is bonded to the panel, at which point it should have a ground. This is only a rule of thumb, though; some connection means do not allow for a good bond.
If it is BX (and it would be a my first step, regardless of wire type), pull the receptacle and check for a ground with a Multimeter. If you aren't comfortable doing this hot, turn out the power and check for impedance between the neutral side of the receptacle (the side with the longer slotted hole, white wire, or silver screw) and the box itself. If there is a tone, you're good to go. Put a grounded receptacle in, making sure to pull the paper screw keepers before mounting the plug back.

If there isn't a tone between the box and neutral, and it is a metal clad wire, try somehow testing the neutral to the cladding. The idea here is to use the cladding as the means of ground. BTW, merely using one of those adapters you spoke of will do absolutely nothing if the isn't a ground present in the plug box.

If you simply cannot get the BX's cladding to work as a grounding conductor, or have ungrounded romex ran in your house, you can run a shielded (buy green colored) wire (#14 for 15A and #12 for 20A) and run it from your new 3 hole grounded receptacle to a grounding source, such as a water pipe (this is assuming that your service has a water ground).

Now notice, there is a chance that your house has been ran with romex with a ground, but the conductor has been cut off in the box. You can confirm this by pulling the panel cover, find the breaker that feeds the circuit, and trace that hot leg back to where the wire first enters the panel. 
Normally there will be a bit of sheathed romex at the top of the panel tub. Strip it back carefully (with the circuit off, of course), and check for a bare ground. It will be alot easier to do this at the panel than in the confines of the plug box. Better yet, if you find a bunch of small bare wire running to a buss bar in your panel, than you can damn near be 100% sure that the wire running to that plug is grounded.
The thing is, around here at least, there were quite a few older homes ran in grounded romex but had ungrounded receptacle throughout the house. The electricians either pulled the ground back through the connector to bond the box, or cut it out completely.

If you need any advice on the fly, or would like to talk about your situation more specifically, PM me and I'll give you my number to call.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Is your house power points are 3 pin? If yes, there are simple way to test which power pin lost its earth. By using a 240V bulb(follow what your power point voltage, my country is 240V)connect it to your power point and switch on the power, if ok(usually yes) then switch off the power. Next connect the -ve to the earth and switch it on again, it should trips your ELCB. If it doesn't then that power point is confirmed to be lost its earthing or wiring inside shorted.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I have ungrounded romex. Someone suggested grounding the outlet to the receptacle box. I'd rather have a stronger ground than that. What else can I find upstairs that would make a good ground.

I also have to buy a new outlet....this one doesn't have a green screw for the ground.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Flipx99 said:


> I have ungrounded romex. Someone suggested grounding the outlet to the receptacle box. I'd rather have a stronger ground than that. What else can I find upstairs that would make a good ground.
> 
> I also have to buy a new outlet....this one doesn't have a green screw for the ground.


If, in fact, you do have ungrounded romex ran in your house, trying to bond to the plug box will do nothing. That is, unless there was a wire rand seperately to bomd it to something else, which I find highly unlikely.

If there is plumbing upstairs, look for a water line to bond to. It will be the strongest grounding source within your house. Use the method I outlined up above to ground your plug.

By code, you cannot change the receptacle you have now for a grounded receptacle without first having an actual ground to tie it to. If any appliance were to loose a hot conductor and come in contact with it's chassis, its chassis would then be hot, and ready to shock you. This is the purpose of the ground in the first place; to provide a higher potential to ground causing a short in such situations and trip the breaker before you were to come in contact with the hot chassis.
Ungrounded receptacles prevent you from using appliances that need a ground at that particular location.

You can replace the ungrounded receptacle with a GFCI. Just make sure to label it with the "ungrounded source" sticker that comes with the GFCI. Realize that the GFCI will still be ungrounded.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

danssoslow said:


> If there is plumbing upstairs, look for a water line to bond to. It will be the strongest grounding source within your house. Use the method I outlined up above to ground your plug.
> .


Not accepted anymore (for a long time), one plastic coupling down line brings the plumbing potential up to 120V in fault conditions. Most new water meters are plastic too


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

chad said:


> Not accepted anymore (for a long time), one plastic coupling down line brings the plumbing potential up to 120V in fault conditions. Most new water meters are plastic too


That's simply not true. Plastic water pipes are getting big now, but still not the norm; definitely not something we'll have to worry about in a house that was old enough to be roughed in ungrounded romex.  
Water grounds are still ran every day, and as long as the service entering the house is copper, this will remain. Not to say that your area or jurisdiction hasn't banned the use of water bonding, they have this right; but it isn't national code as of yet.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Well it turns out two things cause the hum...and none are related to the outlet. I removed the plug and it turns out there is a ground wire inside.

What causes the problem is the subwoofer cable. I started systematically unplugging things, and the subwoofer cable causes the problem. Something else that causes the reciever to hum is the S-video out from the receiver...I'll just give up on the on-screen setup.

Thanks!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

danssoslow said:


> That's simply not true. Plastic water pipes are getting big now, but still not the norm; definitely not something we'll have to worry about in a house that was old enough to be roughed in ungrounded romex.
> Water grounds are still ran every day, and as long as the service entering the house is copper, this will remain. Not to say that your area or jurisdiction hasn't banned the use of water bonding, they have this right; but it isn't national code as of yet.


We can't do it around here, I think possibly all of Illinois 

Everything made past the 80's here is PVC and the age of the home has nothing to do witht eh age of the water meter which most have been replaced with remote-read units.

I guess it's personal. I want multiple ground rods


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## skibum (Aug 24, 2005)

If you don`t have a good ground with one ground rod, multiple rods aren`t gonna do jack. Want a good ground go rent a electric jackhammer ( I suggest a 60#) dig some dirt back around your meter and start cutting the footing with the jackhammer until you get to some rebar attach your ground to that. It will not get any better than that. Nec requires this for all new dwellings now. As a matter of fact I have to install ground wire to the rebar in the footing before the concrete is poured.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

skibum said:


> If you don`t have a good ground with one ground rod, multiple rods aren`t gonna do jack. Want a good ground go rent a electric jackhammer ( I suggest a 60#) dig some dirt back around your meter and start cutting the footing with the jackhammer until you get to some rebar attach your ground to that. It will not get any better than that. Nec requires this for all new dwellings now. As a matter of fact I have to install ground wire to the rebar in the footing before the concrete is poured.



Yeah, some soils just don't promote a good ground at all. We are VERY lucky here. When I helped in Tennesee with wiring for the vacation home we had shale to go thru and it SUCKED BAD.

I'd love to get to the rebar here. I have star ground from the service entrance and 6 rods out connected with bare copper, this is also bonded to the radials for the tower, the whole backyard is a ground blanket basically. many don't understand that a good ground needs surface area and the rebar takes care of that nicely as long as it has soil exposure.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

chad said:


> We can't do it around here, I think possibly all of Illinois
> 
> Everything made past the 80's here is PVC and the age of the home has nothing to do witht eh age of the water meter which most have been replaced with remote-read units.
> 
> I guess it's personal. I want multiple ground rods


Where are water meters set in your area? The ground is found in the copper tubing ran to the meter, which here in our area is in the easement. The majority of the neighborhoods here have houses that set back off of the easement far enough to consider the copper ran to the meter long enough to be sufficient for a ground. Plastic meter or not, it wouldn't effect things here. Now there are exceptions where the house is right up on the easement, which in those cases we will run another ground rod. Unless the meter is directly outside of the home, I don't see what the meter has to do with this. 

On those that are now ran in Pex, or however you spell that stuff, we run two ground rods. Can you give me a code reference skibum about the requirement you speak of?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

danssoslow said:


> Where are water meters set in your area?


Either within the home or right next to the foundation. A FEW are on the easement. There is then a wire run outside from the meter for electronic reading. Dunno why it's that way.

My current home is plastic pipe from the well house a LONG way away, no meter of course since I suck it out of the ground. 

Had 2 rods stock when I came in, added additional grounding and radials when updating the service and adding the tower. Code required me to have the tower (ham radio) radials bonded to the service, which I don't really agree with but the tower has taken a lightning hit and all survived except 2 lightning arrestors on the coax and the fiberglass antennas on top of it that looked like someone spread 100 Lbs of white rice all over the back yard.

Home has "radials" fanned from the service entrance. Radials from the home are buried 3' and spread at 60 degree angles each with a rod connected in the center and end. Tower has 3 rods, one at each leg with a flexible bond from each leg to the rod, from each of those rods are 2 radials giving me 360 degrees coverage at 60 degree angles buried 1' deep and not bonded after that. Coax shields bond to one tower rod, heads underground thru PVC to the shop ground which shields are bonded again, the bench equipment is bonded and there is copper strap bonded that holds the lightning arrestors and is the ground point for all RF equipment and RF sensitive equipment.

It was weird merging RF ground and safety ground AND lightning ground into one, it took a ton of research because in broadcast that is 3 different ground systems. Trying to play nice with the code AND RF/old wise man theory sucks...... But it seems to work  

The property has been hit with lightning numerous times and all I have lost is 150 bucks in coax suppressors, in home suppression has been unscathed. [knocks on wood] I also have yet to have RF interference issues even when running big powa out the tower with the exception of a bit of hash thru the boy's computer speakers when I push it a bit too hard.

I gather you are an electrician...... that probably just drove you nuts didn't it? 

Santa


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

chad said:


> I gather you are an electrician...... that probably just drove you nuts didn't it?
> 
> Santa


That's two yeses. 

I've heard of the use of two or more ground rods in situations other than those without a water ground, due to a high resistance at the first location I believe. Don't remember the story off hand, an industrial electrician told the story back in '99 while attending apprenticeship school. He had to do resistance check between multiple point and the original ground until there was sufficient potential to earth. I remember him saying that he had to run the second ground several yards just to find a good ground. So yes, multiple grounds do work. 
Running a length ( that of which I do not know, I've never had to run this type of ground) of bare wire within the concrete footer has been an excepted means of grounding for as long as I have been doing this, but to my knowledge not a standard. But again, this might be a local law, or a law that we don't have to follow.
I'll admit, I've cracked open my code book maybe two times since I have bought it, and those were to look up pipe and box fill; other than that, I haven't had the need. In saying this, I might be in the dark about what the necessities for grounding are by national standards. There are far too many codes for me to keep up with on a daily basis, and only look to find what I need when I need it.

I will say this though, op, our advice can only be taken as that, advice. Your safest bet is to call someone locally if you are still looking to change the receptacle out to a grounded receptacle. If you say you have ungrounded romex run throughout your house, and there is a ground wire inside the plug box, I'd check to make sure that it is in fact a ground and not just a bond between the box and yoke of the plug; or that someone had pulled a jackleg and tied a pigtail to the neutral in an attempt to make a grounding conductor. That **** might fool a plug tester, but it's far from correct.


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## baurilia1 (Oct 10, 2009)

glll


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

12-25-2007 

nice find baurilia1


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## jobrizzle7481 (Jul 1, 2009)

All these posts aside two companies make products that I know off hand that deal with hums or ground problems very well. PS audio make a product called a hum buster that you can get off audiogon for $200 all day long. Another company, granite audio, make a grounding station so that everything can be grounded to one single point and elimimated ground loops. Besides these more expensive options, if you have only 2 prong power cords, you can use the cheater plugs that you are talking about and just ground it to the chassis. This will not cause any kind of fird and is actually what it is intended for as well as helping to orient the polarity of different plugs.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

danssoslow said:


> That's simply not true. Plastic water pipes are getting big now, but still not the norm; definitely not something we'll have to worry about in a house that was old enough to be roughed in ungrounded romex.
> Water grounds are still ran every day, and as long as the service entering the house is copper, this will remain. Not to say that your area or jurisdiction hasn't banned the use of water bonding, they have this right; but it isn't national code as of yet.


Lots of things are done every day, but they are still not correct. Bonding to a water pipe is not a good ground for many reasons.

He has ungrounded romex, thers's no quick fix. But, this third wire is a safety ground, not a ground for power. The neutral is his power ground.

Chances are if he has a humm in his system, adding the safety ground is not going to do much for him. Most of these older homes are grounded power wise with a ground rod and it's only a small wire to the rod as a reference
for the home. His neutral is coming in through the meter can and sould be tied in at the breaker box, the center tap of the transformer hanging on his pole outside. This can be a very noisey reference, there may be several folks tied on to this same neutral.

The connection at the ground rod is probably coroded and not making a good connection, so his ground reference is more than likely coming from the neutral being fed to the house.

Even so, his noise problem shouldn't exist even on a two wire set up. The noise will normally come from one device having an "isolated" power supply while the others are reference to the equipment frame.

Most of the older homes have one room fed from the light in the ceiling, then all the wall plugs are fed from there. This is were I find most of the problems, bad connections. The second thing I look for is different phases being fed to the same room. Not uncommon, one phase fed to the plugs and the other fed to the lights. A week end warrior whats a new plug, so he scabs in a new plug in the same room, but off a different phase, other side of the tranformer center tap. Some equipment gets plugged into one phase and the rest gets plugged into the other. Any unbalance in the load tends to want to equalize it's noise through the RCA connections from one device to another.

When working on an older house, you really have to be careful, they used a lot of "tricks" in the older days. Take a dual verticle switch, cut the bar off between the switches and feed them with two different phases. Then you have week end electricians who wire things up breaking the neutral.

You can't take anything for granted in an older home, even newer homes makes me wonder what the guy was thinking when he wired it up. And if there's been some home remodeling, be real careful. You can't begin to beleive the old receptacles I've found hidden behind fresh drywall.

Oh and as an adder. Grounding via water pipe cause electrolis (sp). Wears old the soldered connections.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MOST residential wiring is single phase, there are not two phases in a home, you have 2 legs of one phase. 

This baring the case that I have never seen how the hell those bigass homes are wired in say, beverly hills, etc. for all I know they could be 3 phase with no high leg.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

chad said:


> MOST residential wiring is single phase, there are not two phases in a home, you have 2 legs of one phase.
> 
> This baring the case that I have never seen how the hell those bigass homes are wired in say, beverly hills, etc. for all I know they could be 3 phase with no high leg.


I'm well aware of the "phases" in a house. But it's not uncommon to refer to the two voltages on either side of the center tap to be called "phases". After all they are out of phase when referenced to ground. One of the many tricks for keeping noise down in a residential unit is to "balance" the "phases". Or better put, not to load one side of the transformer more than the other.

Nothing has to be referenced to ground, it's something they started back in the 50's. A lot of your older equipment was fed this way, no ground, mainly industrial sites. And then you would find a lot of "B" phase grounded systems in place.

The point is to make sure he's feeding his equipment from the same side of the transformer, it's not a huge load, but the potential difference can cause noise in the system.

And yes, they do feed three phase to the larger homes and use a high leg system. I wish mine was, I've passed up a few high powered tools because the change in the motor would have cost too much.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Dryseals said:


> I'm well aware of the "phases" in a house. But it's not uncommon to refer to the two voltages on either side of the center tap to be called "phases".


Remember how we were talking about Pro Audio that one time. I once demanded that my PA be on the same PHASE, The sparky took one look at the single phase service and handed me my ass. That one got ingrained.



Dryseals said:


> And yes, they do feed three phase to the larger homes and use a high leg system. I wish mine was, I've passed up a few high powered tools because the change in the motor would have cost too much.


Around here (farm country) it's not uncommon to find 3 phase feeding a farm, house is still wired single phase off of one of the transformers. It's very uncommon here to find 3 phase with a "wild leg" in fact it's getting tougher and tougher to even find it in industrial areas around here. If you do find a wild leg it's normally older industrial areas... I've fixed sooo much PA **** from morons hitting two phases on a hi-Leg Delta with a single phase distro thinking they were getting 120-120 and got more than they bargained for (120-240). That lets the magic smoke right out. Stupidity costs money and 10 seconds with a damn meter would have set them free.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Dryseals said:


> The point is to make sure he's feeding his equipment from the same side of the transformer, it's not a huge load, but the potential difference can cause noise in the system.


I agree but it's also important to make sure the neutral current is low and the panel is balanced out. I've solved a lot of noise issues by simply balancing X and Y out to bring the neutral current a low as possible.

In the process of doing this you wonder why it's not common practice, it's certainly not a code issue to have a high neutral current but damned if **** does not run better when you properly utilize the WHOLE transformer


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

chad said:


> Remember how we were talking about Pro Audio that one time. I once demanded that my PA be on the same PHASE, The sparky took one look at the single phase service and handed me my ass. That one got ingrained.
> 
> 
> 
> Around here (farm country) it's not uncommon to find 3 phase feeding a farm, house is still wired single phase off of one of the transformers. It's very uncommon here to find 3 phase with a "wild leg" in fact it's getting tougher and tougher to even find it in industrial areas around here. If you do find a wild leg it's normally older industrial areas... I've fixed sooo much PA **** from morons hitting two phases on a hi-Leg Delta with a single phase distro thinking they were getting 120-120 and got more than they bargained for (120-240). That lets the magic smoke right out. Stupidity costs money and 10 seconds with a damn meter would have set them free.


I'm not a sparky by true definition, my base is electronics. But for many years I did instrument and electrical design. I'm a controls person by definition, DCS and PLC's, but that involves a ton of electrical. I've had a few knock down drag outs with sparky's over proper grounding for systems. Most of my working career was spent with a meter in my hand, then a digitizer and now a mouse and keyboard.
I do my best to stay away from the high voltage, I don't like it, it's scary. I lost a couple of freinds to a faulty 5KV breaker, exploded on them while racking it in. Seen a insulator on a 500 mega watt transformer explode. I was in a power plant for 15 years so I've witnessed a lot of electrical fires in my time.
The terminalogy on phases is locked into the sparky's head, this what they are taught. My son in law is a sparky, as far as terms go, we are worlds apart. Want to have some fun with one. The source for generation is a dc field, and creates three fields 120 degrees apart. The center tap creates two fields 180 degrees apart. If the feilds are out of phase? why do you have to call it a single phase. A few beers and add some more taps to the transformer and you can have multiple fields, you can have a lot of fun with them, they'll hold their ground.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Amen, I however get a real kick out of high voltage, it's neet stuff.

Wanna see a sparky's head explode? Toss them in a broadcast situation and explain that grounding scenario to them


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Dryseals said:


> Lots of things are done every day, but they are still not correct. Bonding to a water pipe is not a good ground for many reasons.


Bonding to the water lines is not only acceptable here; but still required. I'm not following how this might cause electrolysis when there isn't any voltage running to the ground.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Not required here, we don't have any metal pipe either, even the line running off to the well is plastic!


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

chad said:


> Not required here, we don't have any metal pipe either, even the line running off to the well is plastic!


And as plastic is getting really popular here (alot more prevalent since this thread was originated); and dual ground rods or ground rod and Ufer grounds are starting to become the norm.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

danssoslow said:


> Bonding to the water lines is not only acceptable here; but still required. I'm not following how this might cause electrolysis when there isn't any voltage running to the ground.


Electrolysis occurs when you have two dissimular metals connected together and you run a voltage through them. If you bond to the water pipe, electricity may just see this piping as the least resistence to ground and make it's move there. When you move a liquid through a pipe, it causes static and the point where the two metal are connected cause tiny arcs. Add a ground connection to the pipe and you've just given it a bigger boost.

It's fairly well documented, google it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Common in old audio installations. Said oxidation can make a simple diode believe it or not, and a simple diode makes a fantastic AM radio detector. Happens when you use the conduit as safety ground too.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Dryseals said:


> Electrolysis occurs when you have two dissimular metals connected together and you run a voltage through them. If you bond to the water pipe, electricity may just see this piping as the least resistence to ground and make it's move there. When you move a liquid through a pipe, it causes static and the point where the two metal are connected cause tiny arcs. Add a ground connection to the pipe and you've just given it a bigger boost.
> 
> It's fairly well documented, google it.


Sparky is aware of how electrolysis works. Key word in your post above is may; and if the potential is greater to ground than X0 at the transformer feeding the house, than there is a major problem, and electrolysis isn't it.

The only use of a grounding electrode is for safety, utterly and completely. 
Take my example that you have pointed out above. If you were to use a three prong outlet and ground the yoke by way of a copper water line, there should be absolutely no voltage running to the copper line, ever, under normal circumstances. The only time it will come into use is when there is a fault, in which case the potential to ground should be greater to the water line than through a human body coming in contact with the faulty appliance. 
In this case, the breaker should trip. If the end user decides to create a pulsating electrolysis effect within his water lines by way of trying to reset his breaker over and over again; well, there are some kinds of stupid noone can fix.

Keep in mind the op wanted to know how to safely install a 3 prong grounded outlet safely and legally. The way I have described is acceptable by the NEC, and is also fairly well documented.

Speaking of electronics, I installed an alarm system in my house a month ago. In the directions, it suggests grounding the motherboard to a copper water line if it installed on a 2 prong outlet; for protection against lightning strikes. Am I to believe that it would be better to not ground the board to a water line in this situation?


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

danssoslow said:


> Sparky is aware of how electrolysis works. Key word in your post above is may; and if the potential is greater to ground than X0 at the transformer feeding the house, than there is a major problem, and electrolysis isn't it.
> 
> The only use of a grounding electrode is for safety, utterly and completely.
> Take my example that you have pointed out above. If you were to use a three prong outlet and ground the yoke by way of a copper water line, there should be absolutely no voltage running to the copper line, ever, under normal circumstances. The only time it will come into use is when there is a fault, in which case the potential to ground should be greater to the water line than through a human body coming in contact with the faulty appliance.
> ...


Hmmm, interesting. So you are saying under normal circumstances there should be no voltage on the safety ground. And you would be right, but nothings normal, it all varies a little here and there.

Think about it. If I have an induction motor inside a metal case, say a washing machine and I have an earth ground to the water pipe attached to that washing machine, could I be inducing a potential on the metal frame? And if so, where will it go?

Could a transformer of some type induce a field on the frame work of the device it's in?

If you've ever worked in an electronics calibration lab, you would know that certian types of lighting has a tendency to induce voltage on devices around it. Flourecent lights are the worst. So you have a three wire set up in you kitchen, four wire feeding the range and oven and a big huge fluorescent light right up above you for good energy efficient lighting. Where is all that induced field going? Don't forget that big huge metalic refrigerator acting as a giant antenna.

See, NEC allows the use of the water pipe as a _*safety ground*_, the NEC is not worried about electrolysis in your water piping, that's your plumbers job.

The other thing I would never do as tell some one to tie a safety ground onto a water pipe without knowing the complete plumbing history of their house. If the house is an older 2 wire setup, then you have know idea what had happened to the plumbing since then. Joe Bob climbing around in the attic one day and stepped on the copper piping, hard enough to spring a leak. So he and his neighbor ran to the local hardware store and grabbed a PVC splice to fix the broken line. Toss in Sunday Blue laws and Joe Bob and his neighbor could have made a patch from his 64 Chevy truck heater hose which is till there today.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I think we have gone from service bonding to a water pipe to a single outlet bonded to a water pipe and back again, this is causing confusion. Since the ground and neutral are bonded at the service panel as a SAFETY ground causing a hot to ground fault to blow a breaker, we cannot be SURE that said watter pipe will operate in an appropriate manner.

Because of this transition in thinking, I totally see where Dryseals is coming from.

That being said I simply do not condone grounding a single outlet safety ground to a water pipe. I'd almost rather see a ghetto ground to neutral bond happen right at the receptacle in that manner, even though it's completely improper.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

His only other solution to safely install a three prong outlet would be to install a GFI in place of the outlet; or run a ground back to the panel. Option one would be a hell of alot less headache.

Dryseals, I'll admit that I get leery of giving advice, just for the fact that you have pointed out. You can never ask enough questions to insure that all bases have been covered.

Chad, this is something that I have taken for granted. In my experience around here, every service change I have done on an older home that had only one source to ground had a water ground. It was the earth ground that had to be driven in order to pass an inspection. This surely doesn't mean that it would be this way for every instance around this country. 

And I can't say that I have never seen a jumper tied from the neutral to the ground lug on the side of an outlet. I can't recall doing it myself (as far as I'll admit on an open forum), and would never throw it out as an option (again), but I have seen it done. 

As far as induction is concerned, I had an interesting talk with an EE a couple years back and he touched on that very subject. I make the whips up as short as possible when replacing ballasts now.  I'm not the most knowledgeable around, but I'm trainable.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

LOL, and you know what I'm laughing at 

Tossing some audio and RF in the mix makes EVERYTHING crazy. Since this conversation started I DID Bond the house service and shop service, even though since the services are seperate there was a grey area. First experimentally and now in a permanent manner... ONLY a safety ground though using a hand-made air choke to snub off HV impulse (lightning) and most importantly any RF leakage. At times I operate at power levels at certain frequencies that can certainly cause harm to my family if I were to allow the home ground to resonate should something go wrong with my RF and impulse grounding (unlikely.) Better safe than sorry but at least I'm code now


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

danssoslow said:


> His only other solution to safely install a three prong outlet would be to install a GFI in place of the outlet; or run a ground back to the panel. Option one would be a hell of alot less headache.
> 
> Dryseals, I'll admit that I get leery of giving advice, just for the fact that you have pointed out. You can never ask enough questions to insure that all bases have been covered.
> 
> ...


If you've been working on some older houses, you've probably seen some wild things. My first house was built in the mid sixties. Lots of little wonders pop up when you get to climbing around in the attic. I haven't seen them all no doubt but I've seen more than my share.

I was helping a freind once rewire his house, older 50's home. They had a microwave in the kitchen, three prong plug, hmm whats this, it actually had a green wire on the safety. Strange......
Later while we were up in the attic, I saw the wire coming up from the wall and just out of couriosity, I followed it. Well they got close, they found the copper tubing to the A/C unit and clamped it to the return tubing, it's copper right?
I've learned not to take anything for granted in an older home or even a newer home. We're having the master bath remodled (is that spelled right), Any way we're adding a big walk in shower, There was a plug in the corner fed the half bath and the upstairs bath wall outlets on one GFI. The shower wall was going to cover the outlet. I asked the contractor what his plans were. He was just going to cover it up.
We took the electrical out of his bid, I decided I would do the electrical. Wish I would have done the plumbing too, but too late for that one.........


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Man, Dryseals, My first house was built in 72, Vets coming back from 'nam subdivision. I saw sooo much goofy **** that I just ripped it all out and re-did it in chunks. I would not limit it to the 50's and 60's


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

I did HUD work for 3 years for what seemed like one house after the other. There are some crafty ass homeowners out there! 
Just finished a kitchen remodel that was originally wired with knob and tube. The kitchen was previously rewired in the 60's; and there were open wires in several places in the ceiling, still hot mind you.

Chad, you have more nuts and drive than me. My last house was my first home, and when asked by the wife to change some of the outlets out to 3 prong, I said hell no. I admit that I couldn't begin to peer into what was going on in that home, out of fear it snowballing. I have made changes to the current home; and other than some open joints in the attic (I'll keep you guys guessing as to whether I fixed them or not ), the house is in pretty good shape.

Dryseals, what are you going to do about that outlet box? Flip it to the other side of the wall? Two words: dead front.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

My audio was dirty, I decided to do it right  I pulled network CATV, phone when I did it too... REALLY PAID OFF when I sold that damn thing... even though the damn thing was on a slab and I had to pull thru the attic... and of course... i did a bunch when it was sunny and hot. Sweat equity.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

We did put about 14 grand into that house redoing all of the windows and gutters. It's now under a short sale. 

****ing economy...


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

In an effort to show my humility, I submit this:



1990 NEC. said:


> 250-50. Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
> Exception. For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, the grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle outlet shall be permitted to be grounded to a water pipe which is bonded in accordance with Section 250-80(a).





1993 NEC. said:


> 250-50. Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
> Exception. For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, the grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle outlet shall be permitted to be grounded to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in Section 250-81.





250-50 Exception said:


> This exception permits a nongrounding-type receptacle outlet to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle outlet where an equipment grounding conductor is connected to an accessible point on the grounding electrode system. Due to changes in Section 250-81 of the 1993 Code, this will no longer include an interior metal water pipe that is more than 5 feet from the point of entrance of the water pipe into the building. This revision is due to the increasing use of nonmetallic piping and fittings.


If I may be excused, I was reared by those that have been around long before the 1993 code change; and licensed electricians were not a standardized thing until 2002 here in Kentucky; thus code update classes were not mandatory for leadpersons. Without these classes, things like this are easily overlooked.


If anyone here on this forum has peeped into an NEC code book, you can understand how easily things are misinterpreted.

230.130(c)(6) states that "Any accessible point on a metallic water piping system that is connected to the GES" 
This was interpreted by me to include any length of copper pipe which is still a part of a complete copper system. 250-50 _exception_ clearly states why this is not the case anymore, and as to why (which was touched on by Dryseals, very good! ).


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## nsaspook (May 19, 2009)

I ran a station in Key West Fla, receiver antennas everywhere in the middle of a mangrove swamp. In the summer we had either direct or near strikes almost every week. Never lost any gear because we had proper grounding. If you need info about the correct way to do it check out these guys for methods. I know it's overkill for a house but a few ground rods bonded to the house ground can work wonders to reduce noise and blown equipment. 

PolyPhaser | Technical Notes

Google Maps

Google Maps


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

That is a kickass looking facility!

I Use ICE as opposed to phaser. I like their concept better.

Industrial Communication Engineers, LTD.

****ty night pic... I winter.....










They are both great, it's just a preference IMHO.

At our broadcast facility we got an average of 3-10 direct hits a week during storm season, at one of 3 sites.




We had a mix of ICE and polyphaser and they all were repairable.

let's not talk about the mid-build console fires


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

danssoslow said:


> If anyone here on this forum has peeped into an NEC code book, you can understand how easily things are misinterpreted.


Without a doubt, Given my bond now my house is grounded to my radials. Since there is an inductor there for hash I'm simply OK with it.. but I was happier having things separate.

Spring shall tell how the NEC fairs.. the last 6 springs were just fine  Even given 2 evaporated antennas on the tower... with no insurance claims (knocks on wood.)


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

My goodness. This goes well beyond the rooster vane!

My last continuing education class with a new organization, and the lessons taught there were quite different from what I am used to.

The old organization, from which I also got my schooling, taught grounds as a means of bonding between all objects within a derived circuit. From which, I concluded that the earth tied all houses back to the sub station; a complete circuit path.

Simple enough. Like most things scientific, I took it for face value.

This new class spun my head completely around. Their line of thinking broke grounding down quite simply, as a means of lightning protection. I'm starting to read the PolyPhaser notes (rubbing the bridge of my nose whilst I read), and what I'm getting into seems to confirm this.

As a person who does what he's told without questioning the why's, you guys want to fill me in on what I'm reading here? I want to step beyond Sparky and into some Padawan EE **** here.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

chad said:


> Without a doubt, Given my bond now my house is grounded to my *radials*.


You see here. I'm thinking ****ing tires. WTH?!? :blush:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

danssoslow said:


> You see here. I'm thinking ****ing tires. WTH?!? :blush:


In RF we bury wiring underground, sometimes above ground, starting at a heavily grounded tower and ending in rods.. sometimes rods along the way. This lowers the angle of radiation on transmit. ALSO it causes the lightning to thump a larger surface area of land, dissipates more energy right at the drive-up window.

That suppression bar is on a 10' rod, right before the house and coax bonded side to strap, service too.. That's the last stop before the place ''floats up.'' After that on a strike EVERYTHING here floats up to the residual pulse thus having no "potential" from there... Bird on a wire.


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## nsaspook (May 19, 2009)

chad said:


> That is a kickass looking facility!
> 
> I Use ICE as opposed to phaser. I like their concept better.
> 
> ...


I was there back in the 1970's, not much has changed externally. On the base was the receiver/control site, out in the boonies was the transmitter site running FRT-39 and 40's and some other things.

Some old pics from another site of the same type. http://www.portlyautey.com/PagGroup5.htm


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

nsaspook said:


> I was there back in the 1970's, not much has changed externally. On the base was the receiver/control site, out in the boonies was the transmitter site running FRT-39 and 40's and some other things.
> 
> Some old pics from another site of the same type. http://www.portlyautey.com/PagGroup5.htm


That's really kickass... This is a great site for RF eye candy of the era's too.... www.radioliberty.org


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

danssoslow said:


> Dryseals, what are you going to do about that outlet box? Flip it to the other side of the wall? Two words: dead front.


I rerouted everything, I'm a bit of perfectionist. If it's going to be done, it has to be 100% right. I was lucky because my main box is is the master bedroom closet. Yanked out the old and ran all new. Hurricane Ike gave us the opportunity to remodel and this is the last room in the house to finish. Tile going in today, it'll be nice to sleep in the master bedroom after a year and a half of living up stairs.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

nsaspook said:


> I was there back in the 1970's, not much has changed externally. On the base was the receiver/control site, out in the boonies was the transmitter site running FRT-39 and 40's and some other things.
> 
> Some old pics from another site of the same type. http://www.portlyautey.com/PagGroup5.htm


FRT-39 and 40s, thanks for the memories...................

Here's my old site

You can see the antenna field as little circles

This ONE is even more mind boggling

I think nsaspook was there at one time or some where near by. VLF station, if I remember correctly 2.1 million watts at arounds 14K and the center tower 1234 feet high, don't quote me, it's been a long time.


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## Dryseals (Sep 7, 2008)

danssoslow said:


> In an effort to show my humility, I submit this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I spent a lot of time in the NEC and the NFPA books along with API and many other sources. They are all written in a way that can be misinterpreted very easy.
Take a boiler for instance, if it's called a boiler it falls under NFPA. If it not called a boiler then it falls under another regulatory commision. They can be almost 100% identical and produce the same outputs, but have different requirements. It gets hairy.

The NEC didn't recognize different grounding schemes for a long time. So while manufacturers had other ideas, the NEC did not. So a setup governed by NEC rules could have a hard time with grounding for different devices and power feeds, cable runs, on and on. Thats why when in certian circumstance the NEC is a guide line but not the bible, such as in a plant which has it's own registered EE.

We used to get hit by lightning all the time, ethylene plant lots of tall tower structures. We had a system installed for lightning protection and we haven't been hit since.

I'll get the name of the company tomorrow, all I can say is it works, no doubt in anyones mind.


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## nsaspook (May 19, 2009)

Dryseals said:


> FRT-39 and 40s, thanks for the memories...................
> 
> 
> This ONE is even more mind boggling


That's really the landing spot for the green alien girls UFO.


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