# New mosconi 12 channel DSP worth it over older 10 channel Helix?



## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

Good day all - Im new to the DSP game and hope veterans can answer a question:

Based on experience with mosconi (OEM integration, quality, sound signature, etc), does anyone believe leveraging the new 8to12 aerospace makes more sense than using, say, an older helix DSP pro10 channel DSP in the below situation?



3 way font + 2 way rear + subwoofer = 11 active channels (New 8to12 aerospace @ $1400)


VS

3 way front + 2 way rear with passive crossover + subwoofer = 9 channels (new Helix pro @ $1000 or used @ ~$700)



This is in a BMW E60 and I plan on using the Mobridge DA1.
The new mosconi has me excited because 12 channels means that I can run all speakers active but i'm apprehensive that 1. running active rears may not even be noticeable 2. an untested DSP could be trouble 3. If I can get a used helix, it would be considerably cheaper.


Any thoughts?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i would do 3 way front with coaxial rear and sub with the helix. only reason being, the mosconi has 12 channels but doesnt do anything special with them. meanwhile the helix can do l-r/r-l rear fill.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

I would never spend more money, especially when it's almost twice as much, just to be able to have active crossovers on rear speakers. For rears, passives are perfectly acceptable. Like Skizer said, a good set of coax speakers are just fine. There is no doubt in my mind that very few people, if any, could discern the difference between rears run active or passive strictly by listening to them. There is just very little value, if any, to spending extra money to actively crossover rear components.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> i would do 3 way front with coaxial rear and sub with the helix. only reason being, the mosconi has 12 channels but doesnt do anything special with them. *meanwhile the helix can do l-r/r-l rear fill*.


You can do that in the 8to12.


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## Frijoles24 (Apr 19, 2010)

what is l-r/r-l? curious


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

theobjectivist said:


> The new mosconi has me excited because 12 channels means that I can run all speakers active but i'm apprehensive that 1. running active rears may not even be noticeable 2. an untested DSP could be trouble 3. If I can get a used helix, it would be considerably cheaper.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?


Since you're mentioning the Mobridge, then I assume the car is Top HiFi, so 2-way in front doors, 2-way in center, 8" under each front seat, 100mm in rear doors, and 2-way in rear deck? So when you say rears, are you talking about the rear deck?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> You can do that in the 8to12.


interesting. can you do that in the 6to8?


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> interesting. can you do that in the 6to8?


Nope.


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> i would do 3 way front with coaxial rear and sub with the helix. only reason being, the mosconi has 12 channels but doesnt do anything special with them. meanwhile the helix can do l-r/r-l rear fill.





Onyx1136 said:


> I would never spend more money, especially when it's almost twice as much, just to be able to have active crossovers on rear speakers. For rears, passives are perfectly acceptable. Like Skizer said, a good set of coax speakers are just fine. There is no doubt in my mind that very few people, if any, could discern the difference between rears run active or passive strictly by listening to them. There is just very little value, if any, to spending extra money to actively crossover rear components.



Ahh - interesting. Youre saying that not only is it a bad idea to bother with active rear components, it's actually best to have a basic speaker setup rear fill?

And that the heliz has some sort of a rear fill feature?


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

cobb2819 said:


> Since you're mentioning the Mobridge, then I assume the car is Top HiFi, so 2-way in front doors, 2-way in center, 8" under each front seat, 100mm in rear doors, and 2-way in rear deck? So when you say rears, are you talking about the rear deck?



It's an 08 with the mid level system and CCC idrive. This is one step down from the logic7 which has additional speakers in the rear doors.

Front = 1" tweet in sail, 4" in door, 6.5" or 8" under seat.
Rear: Separate 4" and 1" tweet in rear deck

When I last researched, it looked as if bmws with the above config have the MOST network and I could run the idrive feed straight to the DA1 and then into the DSP resulting in a clean setup. 




(I sure hope Im understanding correctly and I dont, instead, have some crap high level output or processed signal)

Is there a way to tell without pulling the amp in the trunk?


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

You might want to take a look at your factory amp to verify that you'll actually need the Mobridge interface. It sounds more like HiFi, and that is all copper. If you look at the amp, you should, or should not, see a fiber optic connector, in addition to the wire connector.


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

One other question: are all DSPs (more or less) created equal in the terms of potential sound quality?

I'm under the belief that:

1. the DSP, when fed a signal from the mobridge, will assume all DAC duties and ultimately be responsible for the overall sound.

2. having a proper DAC and processor is essential to avoid a digitized sound and better equipment is always welcome



If the above is correct, would there be any difference in potential sound quality between the DAC/chipset/architecture of the Helix VS the new aerospace?

I havent researched yet but mosconi did comment that the aerospace is priced higher than their standard 12 ch version due to "premium components". Ive noticed that the helix appears to be favored by pro installers though.



Bottom line is that the sound from my iDrive is absolute crap. I have little issue paying more if it truly results in superior results. Im already compromised by the speaker/tweeter size and I cannot stomach additional weak links


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

I'll try to look up the product page for the 8-to-12, but real quick, does it have adjustable phase angle on the main and/or subwoofer channels?

Wondering also about the physical remote's functionality on the Gladen Aerospace 8-to-12?

If you really are keen on utilizing the L-R/R-L rear fill technique (and it can be very cool on some tracks), you might also use those extra channels on the Gladen Aerospace DSP to loop back into Channels 11 & 12 from the outputs of Channels 9 &10 to achieve a longer delay for the rear fill. Though I haven't looked at the specs to see what the longest delay time is on each channel. Hopefully it is already sufficient.

This is also a 24-bit/192kHz Processor as opposed to the Helix DSP PRO being 24-bit/96kHz. Your ears and brain probably couldn't tell the difference between them anyway, but in general the higher sample rate should offer better S/N ratio (lower noise floor) and better Dynamic Range...though I haven't experienced any issues whatsoever in this regard with the DSP PRO. And the circuitry around the DAC & DSP chips really determines the final performance.

Here's a link to the product page. You can download the software to try offline (without a DSP) and download the user manual.

http://mosconi-system.it/product/gladen-dsp-8to12-aerospace-2/

I don't see an Android app specifically for the 8-to-12 in the Google Play store, just the app for the 6-to-8 which only does Main Volume & Sub Level AFAIK.

To the OP, I would also do as previously stated, and just run high-quality coaxial speakers for rear fill...the Illusion Audio C4CX comes to mind, or the Audiofrog GS-42.

Also, Audiotech-Fischer have just announced the Helix DSP PRO Mk II.


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

cobb2819 said:


> You might want to take a look at your factory amp to verify that you'll actually need the Mobridge interface. It sounds more like HiFi, and that is all copper. If you look at the amp, you should, or should not, see a fiber optic connector, in addition to the wire connector.



Crap - now im not so sure. I pulled the cover and snapped a few pics, but I cannot see what I expected to. Instead of an amp in the well, it looks like a processor and nothing else. If youre at all familiar with BMW systems, can you inspect the below and advise?

Edit - doesnt look like this forum supports gdrive - one sec and ill embed pics




















































































Edit2 - doesnt look as if any of the pics will embed. Perhaps because im a new poster?



Ive saved a collection of the under trunk pics here: *http://imgur.com/a/nDLnz*


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Bounced the pics off of another mod, no MOST, that amp only feeds underseat woofer locations. Head unit powers front doors and rear doors.


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

Bummer - what i thought was a processor is actually the BMW amplifier. (the size of a couple packs of cigarettes, yeesh)

This means i do not have a digital signal coming from my HU and instead Im restricted to crap speaker inputs. I dont know how well a DSP even works with such a weak signal. 

Pic of amplifier harness: http://imgur.com/a/dIzJr


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## theobjectivist (Sep 29, 2016)

cobb2819 said:


> Bounced the pics off of another mod, no MOST, that amp only feeds underseat woofer locations. Head unit powers front doors and rear doors.


sighh

So this means im a bit screwed no matter what DSP I choose, huh?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

theobjectivist said:


> sighh
> 
> So this means im a bit screwed no matter what DSP I choose, huh?


Not completely. Just use your OEM system for NAV prompts, Hands-Free Calling, etc through an Auto-Sensing input on the DSP (as you obviously don't need pristine SQ for these), and then if you have an iDevice or Android device, use it with an adapter to get Hi-Res digital to the processor for SQ listening. The processor can be set to automatically switch to the OEM inputs when an audio signal is sensed on that input.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> .... meanwhile the helix can do l-r/r-l rear fill.


SkizeR, 

Can you please post the link to your post and pic where you showed how to do this with the DSPpro??

Also, are you still liking it for you rear fill??

TIA


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

seafish said:


> SkizeR,
> 
> Can you please post the link to your post and pic where you showed how to do this with the DSPpro??
> 
> ...


i just made this for everyone to see and start a separate discussion

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...7730-how-rear-fill-helix-dsp.html#post4241770


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i just made this for everyone to see and start a separate discussion
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...7730-how-rear-fill-helix-dsp.html#post4241770


SkizeR, GREAT idea!!! Thanks!!!


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

On the 8to12, you just type it into the mixer.


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