# Bass Race 2013



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Every once in a while I crunch the numbers to figure out which drivers move the most air for the least money. Here are the current winners for 2013:









*#3 : Alpine SWR-1522D*
Third place goes to the Alpine SWR-1522D. It displaces more air than anything else in this list - 1.6 liters to be exact. It's also more expensive than our other winners, but would be a great match for a big powerful amp. Here's the details:

volume displacement : 1.6 liters
cost : $199
displacement per dollar : 8.06 milliliters per dollar









*#2 : Alpine SWS-15D2*
Second place goes to the next 'notch' down from the Type R. The Alpine Type S SWS-15D2. It doesn't move as much air as the type R, but it also costs a lot less. Based on the data from Alpine, I believe that both the Type R and the Type S have a flat BL curve. So both woofers are a good match for high power amps; the Type R a little bit more so.

Here's the details:

volume displacement : 1.17 liters
cost : $129.99
Displacement per dollar : 8.99 milliliters per dollar









*#1 : Pyle PPA15*
First place goes to the Pyle PPA15. Basically a low tech motor and a big cone, but very very cheap. The Pyle 'only' moves half a liter of air, but can be had for as little as $40 online. With shipping, it works out to about $55. At that rate, it has a small edge over the Alpine Type S.

Some notes on the contest:

1) There may be competing woofers which are more affordable. I crunched the numbers on about 20 candidates. *If you have a candidate, post it.*
2) Shipping is going to play a huge factor in who wins. For instance, you can get the Pyle from Overstock and have it delivered free; that will upset which driver moves the most air for the least money.
3) Get these deals while you can. Nearly every woofer that made my 'leaderboard' last time around has been discontinued. (Audio Psychosis • View topic - The Bass Race) Exodus Audio, Mach 5 and TC Sounds owned the charts last time. Two years down the road, the woofers that won are no longer being produced.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

For those of you doing the calculations at home, the formula for volume displacement is (SD * (xmax in mm / 10))/1000

Like this:
800cm^2 * (6mm / 10)/1000 =
0.48 liters

To get your "displacement per dollar", take that formula then put the cost of the woofer as the denominator.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Obsidian Car Audio

The 18" moves about 2.43 liters for $199, or about $225 shipped. Right now v3 of these are on pre-order for about $200 shipped. That's about $82 per liter. To top it off, they're actually great drivers.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> For those of you doing the calculations at home, the formula for volume displacement is (SD * (xmax in mm / 10))/1000
> 
> Like this:
> 800cm^2 * (6mm / 10)/1000 =
> ...


I've been doing a similar exercise, but for 12" drivers which IMO are a bit more applicable for most uses than their 15" brothers. The Alpine SWR-12D2 is the value leader so far.

Unlike what you're doing however, I'm not considering drivers above or below certain price points (this time around, $100 to $200 for 12" subwoofers). After going through a similar but much more involved exercise a few years ago, the results were basically telling me that, below a particular price point too many compromises were being made to keep the cost of the driver low, and above a certain price point, the increase in performance was IMO not worth the cost.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Brian Steele said:


> I've been doing a similar exercise, but for 12" drivers which IMO are a bit more applicable for most uses than their 15" brothers. The Alpine SWR-12D2 is the value leader so far.


There's the top 5 at the moment:

Rank	Brand	Model	(Price)
1	Alpine	SWR-12D2 ($149.95) 
2	Dayton	DVC310-88 ($124.85) 
3	Dayton	UM12-22 ($179.00) 
4	Infinity	120.9W ($199.95) 
5	Dayton	RSS315HO-4 ($149.38)

The DVC310-88 has actually been around for quite awhile (it's basically a clone of the old Adire Audio Shiva).


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Brian Steele said:


> There's the top 5 at the moment:
> 
> Rank	Brand	Model	(Price)
> 1	Alpine	SWR-12D2 ($149.95)
> ...


It's funny how many of these I have in the garage. (My current arsenal consists of some Dayton DVC12s, Diyma 12s, a couple of TC Sounds 15s, couple of TC Sounds 8s, four of the Alpine Type S and two of the Alpine Type R.)

Dayton's clone of the Adire Audio Tempest nearly wins first place, loses by a hair to the Stereo Integrity 15"

Dayton Audio DVC385-88 15" DVC Series Subwoofer 295-190

Kind of amazing, considering the Tempest has been around for at least a decade.


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## Jimmy D. (Sep 1, 2005)

How about the Creative Sounds SDX-10 as a candidate?

Jimmy D.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

How would a $70 Adire Brahma 12" do? I paid $30 shipping on a $40 woofer! 

Eric


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Jimmy D. said:


> How about the Creative Sounds SDX-10 as a candidate?
> 
> Jimmy D.


It's really hard for the twelves to compete with the 15s and 18s. 15" seems to be the sweet spot. Basically there aren't a lot of 18" and 21" woofers with excursion that exceeds 12mm, and the ones that *do* are kinda 'boutique' items, and carry a large price tag. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a 12" that can compete with the 15" drivers on this list, I just haven't found any yet.

A 'rule of thumb' would go like this:
If you have a 15" woofer and a 12" woofer, and their xmax is the same, if the 15" woofer costs less than 50% more, than the 15" will generate more bass per dollar. For instance, if you're looking at a 15" and a 12" and they both have 12mm of xmax, and the 12" costs $100, as long as the 15" costs $150 or less *the fifteen will generate more bass per dollar.*


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

We are looking for the most air movement for the least money.

subs, are air pumps !


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

Nismo said:


> How would a $70 Adire Brahma 12" do? I paid $30 shipping on a $40 woofer!
> 
> Eric


I'm at $58.82/liter, or about 17 mL/$1. This is taking the 1 way xmax into account. Should we count the full sweep, I'm at $29.41/liter, or about 34 mL/$1.

Not bad!

Eric


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Nismo said:


> How would a $70 Adire Brahma 12" do? I paid $30 shipping on a $40 woofer!
> 
> Eric


Unless that deal is currently available and open to all, it fails the "availability" requirement to be included in this race


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Basically there aren't a lot of 18" and 21" woofers with excursion that exceeds 12mm, and the ones that *do* are kinda 'boutique' items, and carry a large price tag.


I think that there's a good reason for that too - you're likely to run out of power (or thermal power-handling capability) before you run out of excursion with those larger drivers, so the longer coils are really not necessary and they will only increase weight and reduce efficiency.

I actually think that 12" rather than 15" is the "sweet spot" for subwoofer drivers for most uses.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

Brian Steele said:


> Unless that deal is currently available and open to all, it fails the "availability" requirement to be included in this race


I'm handicapped by a 10 year old subwoofer! 

Eric


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been looking at this monster SI HT18 for home theater use...but if my math is correct it appears to ranks well here too.

volume displacement : 2.651 liters = Sd(117841 mm^2) x Xmax (22.5mm) / 1000000
cost : $169
Displacement per dollar : 15.7 milliliters per dollar = 2651mL/$169


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

ultimatemj said:


> I've been looking at this monster SI HT18 for home theater use...but if my math is correct it appears to ranks well here too.
> 
> volume displacement : 2.651 liters = Sd(117841 mm^2) x Xmax (22.5mm) / 1000000
> cost : $169
> Displacement per dollar : 15.7 milliliters per dollar = 2651mL/$169


That's very similar to the Obsidian driver I posted earlier. SI and Obsidian are _very_ close, Nick being the owner of SI and co-owner of Obsidian.


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## ultimatemj (Jan 15, 2009)

Good to know. WDE


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

ultimatemj said:


> Good to know. WDE


War damn! (I'm admittedly not much of a football fan though)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ultimatemj said:


> I've been looking at this monster SI HT18 for home theater use...but if my math is correct it appears to ranks well here too.
> 
> volume displacement : 2.651 liters = Sd(117841 mm^2) x Xmax (22.5mm) / 1000000
> cost : $169
> Displacement per dollar : 15.7 milliliters per dollar = 2651mL/$169


Some updates...

1) Here's where the leaderboard stands currently, based on some drivers that were sent to me:

Stereo Integrity 15" D4, @10.64ml per dollar
Dan Wiggins has been extolling the virtues of high displacement low efficiency subs for a decade now; I'm kinda stoked that a 'clone' of his Tempest is #2 on this list, despite being about ten years old! The Dayton DVC 385 delivers 10.53ml per dollar
The Pyle PPA15 has dropped to fourth. It's still the cheapest driver on the list. The Alpine isn't in the top 3 anymore, but at #4 it would still be my choice because of it's flat BL curve.

2) Brian has a good point, that it might be useful to restrict the list to two categories. The first would be 'drivers of any size' and the second would be 'drivers up to a certain size.' This would help show the 'goodness' of drivers like the Anarchy, which will put out as much bass as most woofers that are one size larger.

3) I didn't include the SI or Obsidian 18" drivers because both appear to be 'pre-order.' I'd prefer to restrict the list to drivers that are readily available.


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## lionelc5 (Oct 31, 2011)

What about the FI 18s IB318, they are $254 each?

IB318

SINGLE 2 | SINGLE 4 

Fs: 22.3 Hz | 22.5 Hz 
Re: 1.5 Ohms/coil | 2.8 Ohms/coil 
Qms: 3.33 | 3.41 
Qes: ..81 | .77 
Qts: .65 | .62 
Mms: 272g | 270g 
Sd: 1210cm^2 | 1210cm^2 
Vas: 381 l | 381 l 
Spl: 89.1dB 1W/1m | 89.4dB 1W/1m 
Bl: 8.43 N/A | 11.8 N/A 
Xmax: 30mm 
Rms: 550W @ 20Hz 
Sealed box: Infinite Baffle Only 
Ported box: N/A 
Sub OD: 18.500” 
Cut ID: 16.750” 
Mounting depth: 9.500” 
Displacement: 0.22cuft


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Still don't understand how the Dayton drivers are clones of Adire speakers without using XBL2.


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## Ray21 (Oct 19, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Still don't understand how the Dayton drivers are clones of Adire speakers without using XBL2.


The original Shiva and Tempest did not have XBL^2 motors.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Really?

Shows how much I paid attention to Adire back in the day.

Carry on.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

Ray is right. The Brahma was the first to have it, followed by the Tumult and the Koda 8. The Koda6, Shiva, Tempest, and Maelstrom did not. Only when re-released by Exodus, as the X2 version, did they have the XBL (as it is now called) motor. Dan DID design those, but as originally designed, they did not.

Eric


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, learn something new every day...I thought they all had XBL2 on the bigger speakers.


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## Nismo (Jan 10, 2010)

I am friends with several of the guys that had influence on how the design turned out. I've spent more than a little time with the products. 

Eric


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Werd. Makes perfect sense now.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Ray21 said:


> The original Shiva and Tempest did not have XBL^2 motors.


Yep. In 2002 I was working at a failing dot com, and had way too much time on my hands. IIRC, Dan Wiggins and Tom Danley were on the bass list at the same time. (I think this may have predated diyaudio's existence.) Dan was selling the Shivas and Tempests out of his storefront on the other side of Seattle, and Danley was doing a lot of FLHs. (BDEAP, servo subs, etc.) At the time, I can't think of any other driver that had as much output as the Shivas and Tempests. That seemed to get Danley's attention, and for a while there was talk of an XBL woofer for what became the labsubs. That never happened, and instead the labsubs used an Eminence woofer made for Danley called the Lab-12.

But the Lab-12 and the Shiva have a lot in commone. Same manufacturer, low efficiency, high xmax. I think it's safe to say that the Shiva influenced the Lab Sub, and the driver that's in the lab sub is still used in a number of Danley designs to this day. (I believe it was in the DTS 20, and at least a couple of others.)

Or at least that's how I remember it


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

lionelc5 said:


> What about the FI 18s IB318, they are $254 each?
> 
> IB318
> 
> ...












*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


OMG the Fi just crushed everything else on the list. We're talking by a factor of 30%. By far the most displacement per dollar of anything I've ever seen.

This is one really cool thing about infinite baffle woofers. You can really go cheap on the motor and it still sounds pretty good, because the huge box keeps the bass from sounding boomy. (IE, you wouldn't want to use this monster in a vented box, but in a dipole or a sealed box it's re-donk-u-lous)


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## Navy Chief (Jun 14, 2010)

Just for fun I think you should include the MCM Audio 21", it only has an xmax of 7mm but it regularly sells for $119 on sale if you catch the deal (it is currently $139). 

With roughly $15 to ship it, you can get 8.66 mililiters per dollar. 

It may not be the winner, but you do end up as the only one of your freinds with a 21" sub. I have just been looking for an excuse to buy one of these.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Hmmm... interesting. I used to have the Dayton DVC 12". Was quite an impressive sub. Right now I have 2 Eminence Lab-12 subs. One I plan to get rid of, the other I plan to play with (requires only .8 cubes) with an F3hz in the 50's IIRC. Don't know why it's not a popular 12" in car audio... anywho


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Good luck with that fi 18 ib in a trunk of a car. Specs are great for a house.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Good luck with that fi 18 ib in a trunk of a car. Specs are great for a house.


Trunk IB... I might agree.
Getting it truely IB is a different story.










And yes, Patrick. Re-donk-u-lous pretty well covers it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was waiting on that...lol.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Though I don't live to please it comes as a pleasant surprise when I do...



-T


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

highly said:


> Trunk IB... I might agree.
> Getting it truely IB is a different story.
> 
> 
> ...


It is kind of funny. I've sat behind his car, 5' or so, while he was demoing it, and you really can't hear it. IN the car is a whole different story.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

awesome thread. Is Dayton showing up a lot because they do well, or are they showing up because they had the most candidates?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Probably because they are the best bang for the buck.

I really enjoy by Reference HF15 though. Wanted a WGTi15 but didn't have the funds for one.


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## lionelc5 (Oct 31, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> *!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> OMG the Fi just crushed everything else on the list. We're talking by a factor of 30%. By far the most displacement per dollar of anything I've ever seen.
> ...


Well you just made up my mind on these. I have been thinking about getting a couple of the 18s to replace my Dayton 15 that is in a sealed box. I have been iching to try IB in the house so here goes!!


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## SynRG (Jul 30, 2007)

It would be a great reference to have a similar separate threads for each size sub, 6", 8", 10", 12", 15", etc.


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## SynRG (Jul 30, 2007)

SynRG said:


> It would be a great reference to have a similar separate threads for each size sub, 6", 8", 10", 12", 15", etc.


Most folks have size constraints that limit choice in driver, and are looking for the most bang for the buck within that constraint.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

highly said:


> Trunk IB... I might agree.
> Getting it truely IB is a different story.
> 
> 
> ...


I may have just peed a little.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Brian Steele said:


> There's the top 5 at the moment:
> 
> Rank	Brand	Model	(Price)
> 1	Alpine	SWR-12D2 ($149.95)
> ...


Well, the price of the SWR-12D2 has gone up to $169.95 (dammit, LOL), so the top two positions on the list have now switched:

Rank	Brand	Model	(Price)
1	Dayton	DVC310-88 ($124.85) 
2	Alpine	SWR-12D2 ($169.95) 
3	Dayton	UM12-22 ($179.00) 
4	Infinity	120.9W ($199.95) 
5	Dayton	RSS315HO-4 ($149.38)


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Brian Steele said:


> Well, the price of the SWR-12D2 has gone up to $169.95 (dammit, LOL), so the top two positions on the list have now switched:
> 
> Rank	Brand	Model	(Price)
> 1	Dayton	DVC310-88 ($124.85)
> ...


Looks like we forgot the Alpine SWS-12D2! It's available for under $100 and has a rated 15mm Xmax, so....

1	Alpine	SWS-12D2 ($97.00) 
2	Dayton	DVC310-88 ($124.85) 
3	Alpine	SWR-12D2 ($169.95) 
4	Dayton	UM12-22 ($179.00) 
5	Infinity	120.9W ($199.95) 
6	Dayton	RSS315HO-4 ($149.38)

It's Fs of 34 Hz and Qts of 0.61 does limit its alignment possibilities though.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> It is kind of funny.* I've sat behind his car, 5' or so, while he was demoing it, and you really can't hear it. IN the car is a whole **different story*.


This is what it's all about.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

rugdnit said:


> This is what it's all about.


Considering it is a true IB install (not a 'trunk IB'), it was unexpected.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> Considering it is a true IB install (not a 'trunk IB'), it was unexpected.


Anyone seen the Dr Subwoofer video where the kid is bragging how good his system sounds outside of his vehicle? Maybe I don't know ****, but I love it when you can't hear much outside of the vehicle and then you jump in and ... WOW.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

One trend you'll notice with these subs is that the displacement 'champs' are pretty darn big. Basically most of these winners are twelve inches and bigger, and fifteens seem to 'dominate' the results. (Brian found some good twelves, of course.)


Now, one option is to go isobaric.

"Isobaric" you say?
"Why would anyone go isobaric when we all know that isobaric is quieter right?"


Ah, that's a myth!

In fact, *if you have sufficient power, two drivers in an isobaric enclosure will generally play about 3dB louder than one driver.*



I have a long boring explanation of why this is here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1835956-post12.html


But in case you don't believe me, here's some examples.


















For my comparison of a conventional box against an isobaric box, I am going to use four Alpine SWR-843Ds versus a pair of Alpine SWS-15D2 in an isobaric box. I chose these drivers because *one fifteen has about the same cone area as four eights.* So it's a good 'platform' to show how you can use some of these monster drivers to generate monster SPL without ending up with a box that's the size of a refrigerator.









Here's the SPL output of the four Alpine eights, versus two of the Alpine 15s mounted isobarically. *Note how the output below 60hz is virtually identical.*

The output of four Alpine SWR-843Ds is the grey line;
the output of *two* isobarically mounted Alpine SWS-15D2s is the black line.

You might wonder why the eights have more output above 60hz; and the reason is simple. The eights have more output above 60hz because the eights have lower inductance. (This is fairly common; small drivers have less inductance than big drivers.) *But below 60hz the only thing that matters is displacement, and four eights have basically the same displacement as one 15" woofer.*









In case you guys thought I was playing 'tricks' by using an ultra-low impedance, I didn't. Both enclosures present a 2ohm load to the amplifier. Note that the fifteen have higher inductance. (See how the dark line gets higher first?)









This graph is my favorite.
The displacement of the two enclosures tracks each other almost perfectly.
From 30hz to 100hz, the two enclosures are withing 3mm of each other, because the cone area is virtually the same. (IE, one fifteen has approximately as much displacement as four eights.)

And note that at 40hz *the output and the displacement is identical.* This proves my central point - displacement is the only thing we really need to worry about, as long as we have enough power.​


The kicker - no pun intended - is that *the box with dual fifteens is actually *smaller* than the box with four eights.* (Again, displacement is king. Doesn't matter if your box is ten cubic feet or one cubic feet. What you need is displacement IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH POWER.)

To be specific, the four Alpine eights are in a 40 liter box.
The dual Alpine fifteens, mounted isobarically, are in a 25 liter box. Almost 40% smaller than the box with the eights!

Here's the numbers if you want to plug them into hornresp:









Dual Alpine SWS-15D2s in an isobaric sealed box









Quad Alpine SWR-843Ds in a plain ol' sealed box.

Both boxes are fed with the same amount of power - two thousand watts into two ohms, or 63.25 volts.

At current prices online, the quad of eights would set you back $360, while the dual fifteens will set you back $234. The latter solution saves you $126 and requires a box that's smaller. This doesn't even consider the fact that the fifteens have a larger voice coil, which generally translates into lower power compression and higher power handling. (Admittedly, this benefit is iffy because the quad of eights have twice as many voice coils, though they *are* smaller.)


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> The kicker - no pun intended - is that *the box with dual fifteens is actually *smaller* than the box with four eights.* (Again, displacement is king. Doesn't matter if your box is ten cubic feet or one cubic feet. What you need is displacement IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH POWER.)
> 
> To be specific, the four Alpine eights are in a 40 liter box.
> The dual Alpine fifteens, mounted isobarically, are in a 30 liter box.


That would depend on how you define "smaller". Yes, by VOLUME the 30 liter box is smaller than the 40 liter one. OTOH, at least TWO dimensions of that 30 liter box you described have to be over 15" (in order to accomodate 15" drivers), which can be more restrictive wrt in-car placement options.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Wonder how a Polk Dxi will fair in a test like this.It's under $100 all over the net , even Crutchfield.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Click the link for pic...http://www2.crutchfield.com.edgesui...products/2010/44/107/x107DXi124D-o_other.jpeg


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but it *looks* like the Boston 15" could unseat the Alpine 15", as the xmax is similar, but the Boston is on sale today for something like $70.

The Polk DXi seems to run about $100 online, and at that price, the Alpine is a better buy. BUT the Polk is also available on eBay for about $50ish which would make it a killer buy. (Displacement for both is about the same.)

One nice thing about the Polk is that the spec sheet seems to imply that it has a flat BL curve, but some measurements and a graph would be nice. (The 'bl flattening' motors are governed by a pile of different patents, and Alpine has their own variation on it. It's not clear to me if Polk has one as well. It definitely makes an audible difference.)

A ton of these audio companies have merged, so some of these driver might even be identical. I know that at some point there were half a dozen big name car audio companies that were all owned by Directed.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Definitely some #'s would be interesting to see on the DXi's.My son is rocking a 12" that's mounted in the Polk's ported enclosure & the output is really outstanding with just 500w,too bad it's tuned like a Digital Design driver.BTW I was being sarcastic with the Crutchfield pricing...lol.


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## Srt10venomous (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok where does my focal 33wx2 fit in??




551.55 sd
9mm 

are the numbers to input i cant make it work


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Srt10venomous said:


> Ok where does my focal 33wx2 fit in??


@ the very bottom of the list... :laugh:

Kelvin


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## NonSenCe (Jun 4, 2011)

sigh. this is yet another thread here in diyma that i kinda need and desire to read and at the same time really do not want to. 

as it makes me rethink my modest plans and substitute it with imaginations of bigger and better and more boombastic type solutions.. snowball effect.. and i am not talking about snowballs chance in hell type of scenario.. more of the slippery slope kind. 

as all i really want is to actually use as little space as possible, have a simple setup and easy build.. so diyma is bad for me. i loose the focus as i begin to daydream. hahah.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm going to play thread necromancer here... Has there been any updates for 2014? Also, does anyone have a list of subs that are xbl or xbl^2?

Josh


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

JoshHefnerX said:


> I'm going to play thread necromancer here... Has there been any updates for 2014? Also, does anyone have a list of subs that are xbl or xbl^2?
> 
> Josh


Off the top of my head, I believe the Stereo Integrity subs still win.

The Alpine Type S and the Alpine Type R are still very close to the SI subs, *but they have the advantage of a linear BL curve that the SI subs do not have.*

Over the years I've personally had a love/hate relationship with low distortion subs. On the upside they can take tons of power without breaking a sweat. On the downside, *high distortion subs clearly sound louder than low distortion subs.*

I think this is one of the reasons that Alpine isn't exactly setting the world on fire with it's subs; while they're inexpensive and they're clean, a lot of people simply want a sub to get loud without a big amp. And the Alpines can't do that.

I guess it comes down to how big your amp is. If you have a big amp and limited space, get an Alpine Type S or Type R. If you have a small or medium sized amp and a lot of space, get something else. Particularly an SI sub.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I guess it comes down to how big your amp is. If you have a big amp and limited space, get an Alpine Type S or Type R. If you have a small or medium sized amp and a lot of space, get something else. Particularly an SI sub.


FWIW, my two Alpine Type R 12" subs get plenty loud when driven off my 1.2kW class D amp. And that's in sealed boxes. They do need a bit of juice to get going though.


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