# Good Mids to Run with Horns



## DanMan

I know we want a driver with high sensitivity. Also, the bigger the better. Typically 8's or larger.

The Exodus Anarchy look like they play well to 1000hz or so. Very low sensitivity though. I believe Zaph measured around 82. 

If you ran 2 per side, how would this affect things? How about running uber amounts of power? What would it take to make up for the low sensitivity? 

Lastly, I have heard that the high sensitivity of horns plays a huge role in finding other drivers to use with them. ID's drivers work well with their horns. The x69's I use are about 93db, I believe. A 93db "supertweeter", I have been told, simply won't "keep up" with the ~110db horns.

What is the issue that accounts for the 93db mid working with the horns but the 93db supertweeter not working well? Assuming a fully active system, couldn't gain be adjusted accordingly?

Sorry for the disjointed post. Any discussion about sensitivity and horns would be great!


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## frankmehta

I would love to see the answers to this question


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## Brian_smith06

So you're running the x69s with your horns currently and don't like it?


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## DanMan

Brian_smith06 said:


> So you're running the x69s with your horns currently and don't like it?


Did I say that?

I really, really like the x69's and horns. But it has been a couple years and I would like to try something different. I am a procrastinator so I don't know when that might be.

I just ordered a pair of Audax PR170MO's. I am planning to try a 3-way frontset, adding these to my current front end. I am hoping to gain some stagewidth by putting these in the doors.


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## Brian_smith06

fair enough. Yeah i like to switch stuff out occasionally just because I get bored with stuff


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## DanMan

Brian_smith06 said:


> fair enough. Yeah i like to switch stuff out occasionally just because I get bored with stuff



It's the nature of the beast............


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## Brian_smith06

Unfortunately yes it is


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## mikey7182

DanMan said:


> Did I say that?
> 
> I really, really like the x69's and horns. But it has been a couple years and I would like to try something different. I am a procrastinator so I don't know when that might be.
> 
> I just ordered a pair of Audax PR170MO's. I am planning to try a 3-way frontset, adding these to my current front end. I am hoping to gain some stagewidth by putting these in the doors.


Your plan is very similar to mine. I will be using the Audax mids and Illusion horns/DE500 drivers in a 3-way with a dedicated midbass. Efficiency is important when dealing with a 2-way because it requires the mid have extension up to 1khz or so. In a 3-way though, you're only talking about 80-250hz or somewhere in that range, so excursion is actually going to benefit you more than efficiency, which opens up your options quite a bit. The Exodus mids look very promising if you can fit 2-3 per side. You are really looking to maximize displacement through a combination of cone area and xmax. If you can fit dual 7" mids, you may want to consider a single 10" driver instead, like the B&C 10NW64 which gives you both displacement and efficiency. Some of the more popular mids like the JBL 2118H and B&C 8NDL51 would be good choices as well if you can't fit the 10.


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## Patrick Bateman

DanMan said:


> Did I say that?
> 
> I really, really like the x69's and horns. But it has been a couple years and I would like to try something different. I am a procrastinator so I don't know when that might be.
> 
> I just ordered a pair of Audax PR170MO's. I am planning to try a 3-way frontset, adding these to my current front end. I am hoping to gain some stagewidth by putting these in the doors.


You can get six Misco KCN5FD for the price of two PR170M0s:









KCN5FD | Misco Speaker Company

I had to buy a case of these to get them, but the guys at Misco are surprisingly receptive to small orders. (They're a manufacturer, not a retailer, which is why the prices are so cheap, but you have to buy 'em buy the case.)

Here's the specs on the Audax:









Resonance 117Hz
Re 6.2 ohm
Le 0.73mH
BL 8.24
X-max 0.5mm
Qms 3.16
Qes 0.61
Qts 0.51
Sd 139 cm2
Vas 5.52 liters
Magnet weight 31 oz
Speaker weight 5.5 lbs

And the Misco:

UNIT of MEASURE
Resonant Frequency (fo)	101	Hz
D.C. Resistance (Re)	7.2	ohms
Mechanical Q (Qms)	4.5	
Electrical Q (Qes)	0.26	
Total Q (Qts)	0.24	
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)	7.4	ltr
BL Product (BL)	5.85	T-M
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)	1.5	mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)	64.0	cm2

The big advantage of the Misco, besides the smaller size, is that it has triple the xmax.

If you *really* want to "go big", check out the 8NDL51's little brother:









B&C 6NDL38 is a lighweight neodymium 6.5" speaker - B&C Speakers - B&C 6.5" speaker for 2 or 3-way sytems. B&C 6NDL38 lightweight neodymium speakers available now.

It has twelve times as much xmax, for $55 more. I'd be willing to bet that it's distortion specs are unparalleled too, since it appears to be an underhung motor. I'm a big fan of neo motors, they don't cost much more these days and they're great since space is at a premium. Probably has a shorting ring too. (The 8NDL51 does.)


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## mikey7182

Patrick Bateman said:


> You can get six Misco KCN5FD for the price of two PR170M0s:
> 
> The big advantage of the Misco, besides the smaller size, is that it has triple the xmax.
> 
> If you *really* want to "go big", check out the 8NDL51's little brother:
> 
> It has twelve times as much xmax, for $55 more. I'd be willing to bet that it's distortion specs are unparalleled too, since it appears to be an underhung motor. I'm a big fan of neo motors, they don't cost much more these days and they're great since space is at a premium. Probably has a shorting ring too. (The 8NDL51 does.)


Is there an advantage in higher xmax considering a 250-300hz HPF though? If he was trying to use them down to 100hz, I could see it, but how much excursion will there be at, say 500hz? Cone area I can see impacting output in the midrange, but xmax?


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## thehatedguy

Xmax in the midrange isn't a big concern. I ran the Audax down to around 175 on a 24 dB slope and they sounded fantastic...probably my favorite mids that I have ever ran with horns. On paper or in the house running down that low probably isn't a big idea. But in the confines of a car it is fine...we still have cabin gain going on down there to help us too.

I mean we do use the compression drivers WAY past where you would want to use them elsewhere.


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## treylittlefield

could i run 4 8s and the horns still keep up? i have illusion CH-1s btw


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## fish

treylittlefield said:


> could i run 4 8s and the horns still keep up? i have illusion CH-1s btw


What 8s?

I bet you would still have to turn the gain down on the horns to match the output of quad 8s.


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## treylittlefield

That's perfectly fine with me tbh...I was thinking of running some sundown pro audio 8s when they came out...I currently have a set of 2119s.


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## Brian_smith06

treylittlefield said:


> could i run 4 8s and the horns still keep up? i have illusion CH-1s btw


dont underestimate the horns


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## edouble101

I would not base my criteria soley on efficiency specs. Proper amplifer matching and setup equals the system out. For midbass freqs a low xmas driver combined with low effiency maybe an issue. But the Exodus EX 6.5" should be a great contender for a solid midbass matched up with HLCD.

Diycable also gas an 8" midbass (and 5.25") coming out with loads of excursion. Keep an eye out for this one.

BTW you are looking for a midbass speaker, right? The HLCD covers midrange freqs.


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## treylittlefield

i was looking for midrange/midbass...something from 50-80hz up to about 1000-1.2k


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## fish

edouble101 said:


> I would not base my criteria soley on efficiency specs. Proper amplifer matching and setup equals the system out. For midbass freqs a low xmas driver combined with low effiency maybe an issue. But the Exodus EX 6.5" should be a great contender for a solid midbass matched up with HLCD.
> 
> Diycable also gas an 8" midbass (and 5.25") coming out with loads of excursion. Keep an eye out for this one.
> 
> BTW you are looking for a midbass speaker, right? The HLCD covers midrange freqs.


The Anarchy is has an 85db SPL rating where horns are around 108-110db. It would be tough to level match these speakers, unless you had two or better yet three per side.


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## fish

treylittlefield said:


> That's perfectly fine with me tbh...I was thinking of running some sundown pro audio 8s when they came out...I currently have a set of 2119s.


Do you have the specs on those Sundowns?


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## edouble101

fish said:


> Do you have the specs on those Sundowns?


I do not think the t/s patameters have been released. Crescendo also has a pro line coming out.


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## subwoofery

edouble101 said:


> I would not base my criteria soley on efficiency specs. Proper amplifer matching and setup equals the system out. For midbass freqs a low xmas driver combined with low effiency maybe an issue. But the Exodus EX 6.5" should be a great contender for a solid midbass matched up with HLCD.
> 
> Diycable also gas an 8" midbass (and 5.25") coming out with loads of excursion. Keep an eye out for this one.
> 
> BTW you are looking for a midbass speaker, right? The HLCD covers midrange freqs.


Please read this 

I'm not sure if you've played with HLCD before but I would take a High-Efficiency driver over 3 Low-Efficiency drivers anyday of the week. 

It really is difficult to match HLCD to a Low-Efficiency driver. I'm using the X65 from ID which has an efficiency of 91.5dB 1w/1m (not bad but not high) and had a really hard time matting it to my horns even with 200rms applied. 

You know your limitations when you play with horns. 

And lowering the output of the horn neglects the use of horns in the first place - you're better off using a tweeter. Not even talking about power compression...

Kelvin


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## edouble101

subwoofery said:


> Please read this
> 
> I'm not sure if you've played with HLCD before but I would take a High-Efficiency driver over 3 Low-Efficiency drivers anyday of the week.
> 
> It really is difficult to match HLCD to a Low-Efficiency driver. I'm using the X65 from ID which has an efficiency of 91.5dB 1w/1m (not bad but not high) and had a really hard time matting it to my horns even with 200rms applied.
> 
> You know your limitations when you play with horns.
> 
> And lowering the output of the horn neglects the use of horns in the first place - you're better off using a tweeter. Not even talking about power compression...
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks for your comment Kevin. I will read over the link you posted.


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## subwoofery

I was actually looking for another thread where Winslow explained in better terms why it won't work (well not "won't work" but not suited) by using a low sensitivity driver. 

Maybe he can shime in... 

Kelvin


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## edouble101

subwoofery said:


> Please read this


Good bits within the post you highlighted. Thanks.


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## KENNEY

Ive had good luck with the Morel Elate 9's so far. Anyone else experience these? I cant be the only one!
Morel Loudspeakers - Mobile Audio - Components - Mid-Woofers/Woofers - Elate SW


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## TokoSpeaker

Senor..

If we use Image Dynamics X65 for midbass.
How many pairs that we can use? One or two pairs?
One pair on kick panel (Left & Right), while the other pair on door panel.

Is it correct?

Thank you.


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## fish

bursabaju said:


> Senor..
> 
> If we use Image Dynamics X65 for midbass.
> How many pairs that we can use? One or two pairs?
> One pair on kick panel (Left & Right), while the other pair on door panel.
> 
> Is it correct?
> 
> Thank you.


I would assume you could use as many as you could practically fit. For example, mattyjman has a build log on here where he's using 3 per side in the door for midbass, plus one in the kicks for dedicated midrange.


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## kcobello

Reading about the compression/horn drivers. I would be new to this front stage method. Advantages of Horns?, SQ good? Im kinda curious on this. I also have some old school Soundstream Class A 50's I could use to push them. Bad idea? I would need an amp for the woofs. Wish I would have read this thread. My system is starting this week. Pioneer Z130BT going in Wed. Deciding on everything else. Probabably a JL Sub and just a front stage for my Toyota Tacoma. The horns got me thinkin. Could someone with experience with Horns give some advice. Money really isnt an issue....to a certain extent, but I like a simple setup. Would the SQ be as good if not better this way? I like it loud and clear. I do jam to Rush, Vanhalen and bands of that era.

Thanks for the help.
KC


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## treylittlefield

I had the jbl2119h's with horns. Sounded real good with very little eq. Sounded as loud as my 3 sets of comps with a lot less power..I'll never go back to car audio drivers 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Eric Stevens

Horns advantages are many, their downsides mostly on the install side.

The SQ is most certainly there and to much higher volumes than conventional components. This is a product of the very high efficiency. Not all horns are created equal and the horn is more important than the driver chosen.

Downside is, to get the most, it is best to run an active system. This increases cost even more than the cost of the horns. Also they require a custom install, they do cost less to install than a mediocre set of kick panels though.

Eric Stevens




kcobello said:


> Reading about the compression/horn drivers. I would be new to this front stage method. Advantages of Horns?, SQ good? Im kinda curious on this. I also have some old school Soundstream Class A 50's I could use to push them. Bad idea? I would need an amp for the woofs. Wish I would have read this thread. My system is starting this week. Pioneer Z130BT going in Wed. Deciding on everything else. Probabably a JL Sub and just a front stage for my Toyota Tacoma. The horns got me thinkin. Could someone with experience with Horns give some advice. Money really isnt an issue....to a certain extent, but I like a simple setup. Would the SQ be as good if not better this way? I like it loud and clear. I do jam to Rush, Vanhalen and bands of that era.
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> KC


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## treylittlefield

i get a "harsh" sound at higher volumes...what am i doing wrong?


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## subwoofery

treylittlefield said:


> i get a "harsh" sound at higher volumes...what am i doing wrong?


If you get a "bitty" sound at high volume, then your HP is too low. 

Kelvin


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## treylittlefield

"Bitty"? Its more of like the higher pitch sounds, I have them crossed at 900..it seems overly bright. Lol

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery

What slope for the 900Hz Xover point? 
When I hear "harsh" when describing horns, I either think of too low of a Xover point or a diaphragm that needs cleaning... 

Playing with your Xover point is much easier. 
Also, you need to remember that some have played their horns as low as 600Hz but that was probably with a 48dB/oct slope. Just listen to what YOUR system is telling you. 
Don't know what kind of power you're using and don't know the driver but 900Hz might be a bit low and 1kHz might be the sweet spot, just try 

Kelvin


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## treylittlefield

24db slope, thats all the 360.2 will do. not really pushing much power. actually the amp is ALL the way down almost. im gonna rewire to a higher load so i can turn the amp up and the osund will be better. i am running illusion audio with ch-1 drivers. thinking about going to the b&c drivers. how do they have that steep of a slope? i need someone with a RTA so maybe i can get some peaks and dips outta my system. 

im also wanting to run a 10 inch mid in the door for my 2-way setup. so i need a 10 that will play off axis up to whatever i xover my horns. easier to fiberglass and will eventually move to a 3-way when i get a new processor.


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## subwoofery

treylittlefield said:


> 24db slope, thats all the 360.2 will do. not really pushing much power. actually the amp is ALL the way down almost. im gonna rewire to a higher load so i can turn the amp up and the osund will be better. i am running illusion audio with ch-1 drivers. thinking about going to the b&c drivers. how do they have that steep of a slope? i need someone with a RTA so maybe i can get some peaks and dips outta my system.
> 
> im also wanting to run a 10 inch mid in the door for my 2-way setup. so i need a 10 that will play off axis up to whatever i xover my horns. easier to fiberglass and will eventually move to a 3-way when i get a new processor.


Did you manage to determine what is your max volume setting? For eg. I'm using a CD7200mkII with a PG EQ232 and my max volume is 60 out of 80 (no distorsion up to 79 out of 80) - meaning above 60 I'm clipping the EQ232's input. 

You might be clipping your 360.2 input... Who knows 

Kelvin


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## treylittlefield

I'm pretty sure its 26 out of 35. I honestly don't know how to test it. Don't have an o scope or anything. Care to pm me so maybe we won't clutter this thread. I have a few morew questions to ask ya.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery

treylittlefield said:


> I'm pretty sure its 26 out of 35. I honestly don't know how to test it. Don't have an o scope or anything. Care to pm me so maybe we won't clutter this thread. I have a few morew questions to ask ya.
> 
> Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


No prob, just PM me or create another thread. Up to you  

Kelvin


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## Shaheenk

I am currently busy with an install in a Hoda with Orion 8MB's for midbasses, just finished mounting them and need to get the rest of the install in before I can comment


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## voltij

Question: Why havent the B&C 8NW51 ever been suggested to run with horns?

Same power handling as 8NDL51
More sensitive than 8NDL51
Only 5 Hz higher freq response (70-3khz instead of 65-3khz)
Only 9 Hz higher resonant frequency

Something I'm missing?

Links:
B&C 8NW51 is a lightweight 8" mid-bass woofer speaker.
B&C 8NDL51 is a lightweight 8" woofer


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## tRidiot

NDL
Total Q 0.37
BL 12.4

NW
Total Q 0.17
BL 18.9




Not sure if these have any real effect on use with horns? Anyone?


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## bassfromspace

The NW is newer than the NDL I believe. It may be a case of people not knowing they're available.


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## voltij

bassfromspace said:


> The NW is newer than the NDL I believe. It may be a case of people not knowing they're available.


If this is the case I might have to make a purchase...

It looks like the NW sacrifices some lower woofer output to make up for some midrange. Correct me if I'm wrong?


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## sonikaccord

I have the NW's but I have nothing to compare them to...They are very efficient and sound good in very small sealed. I'm going to throw them into a ported box to see how they sound.


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## SSSnake

NDLs 7mm Xmax
NWs 6mm Xmax

This combined with the reasons already mentioned steers me to the NDLs. Plus take a look at the freq response, the low end is rolling off more quickly on NW.


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## voltij

SSSnake said:


> NDLs 7mm Xmax
> NWs 6mm Xmax
> 
> This combined with the reasons already mentioned steers me to the NDLs. Plus take a look at the freq response, the low end is rolling off more quickly on NW.


Well, here within a few weeks I'll have the 8NDL51s in kickpanels on my new amps in my new car. If I don't like it I'll buy the 8NW51s and give a review of NDL vs NW.


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## toysoldier3646

does anyone have experience with the audax pr240m0 woofers?

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_248&products_id=9051


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## Patrick Bateman

treylittlefield said:


> "Bitty"? Its more of like the higher pitch sounds, I have them crossed at 900..it seems overly bright. Lol
> 
> Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


I think there are a couple of fundamental problems with underdash horns, and you are running into one of them.

The first problem is the use of "full size" compression drivers.









Here is a pic of a BMS compression driver and a JBL. The JBL has a conventional diaphragm. See how big it is? That's why we are able to use xover points of 1000 or even 750hz. The diaphragm is hyooooge. But that comes with a penalty - the top end of conventional compression drivers kinda sucks. It's not godawful, but it's certainly not as clean as a good 1" dome or a ribbon tweeter. This is just common sense - we're taking a big diaphragm and we're running it all the way to it's limit. At the limit, a great deal of the output is diaphragm resonance.

On my forum I've posted some waterfall plots which show the problem in stark detail. If you've heard people rave about ribbons, it's because their top end is basically the *opposite* of what a compression driver sounds like.









The second problem with underdash horns is that they're difficult to mate up with midranges. This is for two reasons. The first is that their output level is very high, and their efficiency is very high. That problem is easy to address - just use a midrange or midbass with gobs of output. I like the B&C 8NDL51.

The second reason is much more insidious, and that is *matching the polar response.* Becuase the horns have a funky shape, their polar patter is funky too. (It's very tall vertically, and narrow horizontally.)

Addressing that is tricky. I could write a whole thread on it if anyone cares, but I think there is a simpler solution.










I think the simplest solution is to use a much MUCH smaller horn, a horn whose polar response is carefully mated to the polar response of the woofer. In the pic above, we can see that Gary Biggs did this with his JBLs.


























Here's a few pics of music studios. See how the tweeters are horn loaded, and the waveguide is the same dimensions as the woofer? This is done so that the two drivers blend into one seamless whole. *This is particularly important when you listen in the nearfield, like in a studio or in a car.* If you were listening in a theater getting the polar pattern right wouldn't be such a huge deal, because a great deal of the sound would be reflected energy, not direct energy. Again, this is one of those topics that I could bore everyone to death with, but when it comes to picking out a midbass for your car audio horns, one of the reasons that it's so difficult to do is that conventional underdash horns are nearly impossible to mate with conventional drivers. Arrays on the other hand...


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## Mic10is

Patrick, what image in that picture are you referring to Biggs using a Horn in his install?

He used a diffusor but never a horn of any sorts unless you include that the JBL tweeter comes that way stock, it isnt anything added by Gary for the install.
If youre refering to the tweeter, then it isnt just Gary who uses them, Steve Head used them in the Truck, Dave Clews uses them in his 300---host of other random people use them as well. Its a solid performing tweeter.


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## Patrick Bateman

Mic10is said:


> Patrick, what image in that picture are you referring to Biggs using a Horn in his install?
> 
> He used a diffusor but never a horn of any sorts unless you include that the JBL tweeter comes that way stock, it isnt anything added by Gary for the install.
> If youre refering to the tweeter, then it isnt just Gary who uses them, Steve Head used them in the Truck, Dave Clews uses them in his 300---host of other random people use them as well. Its a solid performing tweeter.


The tweeters in Gary's car use an elliptical oblate spheroidal (EOS) waveguide. Oblate spheroidal waveguides are the same types used by Geddes in his speakers too.

When people think "horns" they picture big devices, but small horns work great too. Small horns require a higher crossover point, but AES studies have shown that shallow horns are preferred by most listeners.


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## Mic10is

I wouldnt go as far as to say the Tweeter are horns, they use a waveguide.

but youve been making it sound like he did something more than put in a tweeter. yes I am positive many considerations were taken in choosing the tweeter, but for the most part the Kick panels havent changed in quite a few installs.


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## Patrick Bateman

Mic10is said:


> I wouldnt go as far as to say the Tweeter are horns, they use a waveguide.


All horns are not waveguides, but all waveguides are horns. Both a horn and a waveguide are impedance transformers. A waveguide provides gain like a horn does, but gain is not the primary design criteria. Control of the polar response is, hence the name "waveguide."


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## TokoSpeaker

Back to the topics : 
- Good Mids to run with horns.

What is your suggestion?

Thank you so much.


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## DanMan

TokoSpeaker said:


> Back to the topics :
> - Good Mids to run with horns.
> 
> What is your suggestion?
> 
> Thank you so much.


Image Dynamics x69.

Buy used.


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## subwoofery

DanMan said:


> Image Dynamics x69.
> 
> Buy used.


x2 

Else you got B&C 8NDL51 

Kelvin


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## T3mpest

subwoofery said:


> x2
> 
> Else you got B&C 8NDL51
> 
> Kelvin


BMS has a good 8. So does 18sound and Faitel has a few... There are lots of options but the B&C is just the popular choice because it's an all around good speaker... Some may prefer the sound of other options more. My BMS has a better midrange, IMO, than the B&C I messed with, although it doesn't play as low. The XS's have an overall good sound, kinda warm and hard on bad recordings.. However, they really aren't loud enough to mate with horns, that's why you see alot of people using 2 sets or 3 sets as midbasses and it messes up imaging.. They really aren't up to the task of fully keeping up with a pro audio compression driver.. 

My question to patrick is what would be necessary to get a good waveguide for a midrange in a car? What shape would we even want to build it if it's in the kickpanels crossfiring? I'd like to try and get pattern control in the midrange too as well as boost senstativity, as even the 97db/1w/1m mids I'm using right now aren't quite where I wish they were in raw dynamcics and overall output capabilties. 150 watts on tap, so more power can't really be MUCH of a solution.

I mean yeah, they can make pretty convincing drums.. They can run loud enough full bore you can't hear yoruself scream or even hear wind noise with the windows down at 100mph... However, if your really trying to reproduce a dynamic piano at full volume, or get orchestral stuff to sound real, they can't quite make the grade.. I feel like i need a few more DB's of headroom to get where I want to be. Subs can run up to 140hz with a steep crossover so I dont' need gobs of lowend out of my mids.


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## subwoofery

T3mpest said:


> BMS has a good 8. So does 18sound and Faitel has a few... There are lots of options but the B&C is just the popular choice because it's an all around good speaker... Some may prefer the sound of other options more. My BMS has a better midrange, IMO, than the B&C I messed with, although it doesn't play as low. The XS's have an overall good sound, kinda warm and hard on bad recordings.. However, they really aren't loud enough to mate with horns, that's why you see alot of people using 2 sets or 3 sets as midbasses and it messes up imaging.. They really aren't up to the task of fully keeping up with a pro audio compression driver..
> You should hear the "old school" ID demo vehicle (sean's car) - it has a 1 pair of Ultra full size, 1 pair of X69 and 1 pair of 12" IDmax sealed...
> The X69 received power from 2 x 700.2 bridged and was able to keep up with the horns and the substage...
> 
> My question to patrick is what would be necessary to get a good waveguide for a midrange in a car? What shape would we even want to build it if it's in the kickpanels crossfiring? I'd like to try and get pattern control in the midrange too as well as boost senstativity, as even the 97db/1w/1m mids I'm using right now aren't quite where I wish they were in raw dynamcics and overall output capabilties. 150 watts on tap, so more power can't really be MUCH of a solution.
> Actually you should try to use more power just so you have dynamic headroom. The amp power supply will then never saturate and will just keep on powering those mids without distorsion.
> The X69 really benefited from much more power than necessary...
> Also: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/18660-abmolech-talks-power-speakers.html
> 
> I mean yeah, they can make pretty convincing drums.. They can run loud enough full bore you can't hear yoruself scream or even hear wind noise with the windows down at 100mph... However, if your really trying to reproduce a dynamic piano at full volume, or get orchestral stuff to sound real, they can't quite make the grade.. I feel like i need a few more DB's of headroom to get where I want to be. Subs can run up to 140hz with a steep crossover so I dont' need gobs of lowend out of my mids.


Call me crazy but my next system will have 2 Genny DMX powering the mids... 

Kelvin


----------



## voltij

I have used the B&C 8NDL51 for a very long time. I think I bought them 3 to 4 years ago.

For a while I was dissatisfied. Then I realized that I had a small tear in the surround that was absolutely DESTROYING the range between 350-850 hz.

I caulked up the tear, and from then on out they sounded absolutely amazing with little to no EQ. Also they got quite loud.

And then I started noticing a speaker having a lot of breakup again, and yet again a speaker had a tear in the surround.

Not sure what caused the tears, but I do have them installed in kicks and not behind a grill and both times it was the passenger side that had the tear. Was probably either something falling on it from the seat or a rowdy passenger.


*ANYWAY* there IS a point to me posting. When PartsExpress has the 8MDN51 back in stock later this month, I will be buying a pair. They seem to be almost exactly the same as the 8NDL51, but with higher efficiency and the same power handling (so louder). The only downside is the frequency response changes from 65-3000 to 70-4000. Probably won't make much of a difference because I cross to subwoofers at about 90.

In the meantime I will probably try to repair the surround again on my current 8NDL51s and see if they'll sound good as new.


----------



## T3mpest

subwoofery said:


> Call me crazy but my next system will have 2 Genny DMX powering the mids...
> 
> Kelvin


I've ran the XS69 mids... I had them in my car for over a year... With the power I had on tap they could kinda keep up when I powered the horns with a 20 watts amp with the gain all the way down... The XS mids were nice, but in raw output they were actually a little weaker than what I'm using now. for longterm volume I could smell the coils on the XS mids at points where my BMS do fine.. Midbass I'd say the XS mids had a small advantage, but that's about it. Once you hit the midrange it was no comparision. Just adding power to a speaker doesn't always help. At some point the coil gets hot impedence goes up, power compression is a *****. The BMS are def a bit more impressive because even my gf when I switched out mids and cranked it was like god damn what are these! She was used to the XS's output and dynamics. 

The XS's are nice, but lets get real. They are low to mid 90's effecient.. 94db's if I remember correctly.. They also don't handle power as well as a alot of pro audio speakers do on a longterm basis... I'm looking for something a little more dynamic and overkill.. 2 pairs of xs for midbass would suffice, preferrably ported would be good, but I'd still need a 100db midrange to keep up.

I'll still probably get a bigger amp at some point, or run dual midbasses.. I'm thinking of running 2 sets of xs mids in my doors for midbasses. I can drop the amp to 2ohm and get 525 watts so 260watts to each mid and that'd be ALOT of raw effeciency due to cone area.... Possibly ported.. lol and yes I do have the door room for this although I have to rebuild teh bottom of my door panel, which isn't that bad since it's a rectangle. That's why I'd use the xs mids, they have a good shape for my doors... Even in a rebuild I want to make it as simple as possible.

Now the question is where do I get a midrange that can keep up... My first thought was a PHL 2520 as that's the most effecient 8 I know of, but I can't find them anywhere. If I have too I'll step up to a 10.... Anyone wanna chime in.


----------



## subwoofery

There's one guy that is doing a dual X69 ported in each door... Waiting for the results. 
Believe they are going to be tuned to 60Hz. 

Kelvin


----------



## 1edgekilla

subwoofery said:


> There's one guy that is doing a dual X69 ported in each door... Waiting for the results.
> Believe they are going to be tuned to 60Hz.
> 
> Kelvin


I believe Rick from RammAudio ran dual 6X9's in one of his vehicles as well as HorsemanWill? though I'm unaware if they were ported or not. 

Also, I'm sure its been mentioned but anyone aware of a 6.5" thats efficient enough to run with horns... I was looking at the B&C 6MDN44 but still its only 96.5 db and rated down to 150 hz which im trying to find atleast a 98db efficiency... mainly i ask because I just don't think I can fit an 8 inch in my cavalier doors without completely ripping and rebuilding.


----------



## voltij

1edgekilla said:


> I believe Rick from RammAudio ran dual 6X9's in one of his vehicles as well as HorsemanWill? though I'm unaware if they were ported or not.
> 
> Also, I'm sure its been mentioned but anyone aware of a 6.5" thats efficient enough to run with horns... I was looking at the B&C 6MDN44 but still its only 96.5 db and rated down to 150 hz which im trying to find atleast a 98db efficiency... mainly i ask because I just don't think I can fit an 8 inch in my cavalier doors without completely ripping and rebuilding.


96.5 db is pretty good, I don't know if you're going to have much luck getting a better efficiency without sacrificing power handling. 

If I were you, I'd buy the 8MDN44s from partsexpress, make sure you take good care of them through the install and return them within 45 days if you don't like them.


----------



## 1edgekilla

voltij said:


> 96.5 db is pretty good, I don't know if you're going to have much luck getting a better efficiency without sacrificing power handling.
> 
> If I were you, I'd buy the 8MDN44s from partsexpress, make sure you take good care of them through the install and return them within 45 days if you don't like them.


did you mean the 6MDN44's or the 8MDN51's? there is no 8mdn44 to my knowledge? if there is please provide the link.

also, like i had said if you were meaning the 8, i'll have to do some heavy modifying to get those in... unless i put them in kicks... idk whats your opinions on putting 8 inch mids/woofers in kicks? is it even possible due to lack of airspace?


----------



## Eric Stevens

1edgekilla said:


> I believe Rick from RammAudio ran dual 6X9's in one of his vehicles as well as HorsemanWill? though I'm unaware if they were ported or not.
> 
> Also, I'm sure its been mentioned but anyone aware of a 6.5" thats efficient enough to run with horns... I was looking at the B&C 6MDN44 but still its only 96.5 db and rated down to 150 hz which im trying to find atleast a 98db efficiency... mainly i ask because I just don't think I can fit an 8 inch in my cavalier doors without completely ripping and rebuilding.



A 98 dB 6.5" driver is a pure midrange and not any good below 400-500 Hz. If you want a 6.5" driver to play to 90 Hz well to mate with subwoofers you are limited to about 91 - 92 dB and thats pushing it. Ported enclosure could possibly squeeze another 2 dB of efficiency out of the system.

Eric


----------



## voltij

1edgekilla said:


> did you mean the 6MDN44's or the 8MDN51's? there is no 8mdn44 to my knowledge? if there is please provide the link.
> 
> also, like i had said if you were meaning the 8, i'll have to do some heavy modifying to get those in... unless i put them in kicks... idk whats your opinions on putting 8 inch mids/woofers in kicks? is it even possible due to lack of airspace?


B&C 6MDN44 6-1/2" Neodymium Midrange Speaker

But yeah, as Eric pointed out this driver won't have much midbass. The specs say over 150 Hz only.


----------



## 1edgekilla

Eric Stevens said:


> A 98 dB 6.5" driver is a pure midrange and not any good below 400-500 Hz. If you want a 6.5" driver to play to 90 Hz well to mate with subwoofers you are limited to about 91 - 92 dB and thats pushing it. Ported enclosure could possibly squeeze another 2 dB of efficiency out of the system.
> 
> Eric


hmm...that changes everything but good to know.

Eric, what would be my best options if I were to try and stick with 6.5's paired along side the horns... w/o stepping up to an 8" that is? Possibly 3 way 6.5's...Woofer, Midrange, Horn?

Thanks for you input!


----------



## 1edgekilla

voltij said:


> B&C 6MDN44 6-1/2" Neodymium Midrange Speaker
> 
> But yeah, as Eric pointed out this driver won't have much midbass. The specs say over 150 Hz only.


okay thought so... and yeah thats what i was looking at but the fact its only good to over 150hz doesn't help me much... id still have to run a woofer which is why i questioned the possibility of a 3 way... idk i think im over thinking this and making it more difficult than need be. also, wish the 6mdn had more reviews...looks like a nice midrange... curious to know its sound.


----------



## voltij

1edgekilla said:


> okay thought so... and yeah thats what i was looking at but the fact its only good to over 150hz doesn't help me much... id still have to run a woofer which is why i questioned the possibility of a 3 way... idk i think im over thinking this and making it more difficult than need be. also, wish the 6mdn had more reviews...looks like a nice midrange... curious to know its sound.


Small size, good midbass extension, and high efficiency.

Pick two

Unless you want to build kickpanels in the footwells, you are definitely going to want to sacrifice efficiency and get something with high power handling in an IB setup in the doors.

Wait, are you OK with building kickpanels?


----------



## 1edgekilla

voltij said:


> Small size, good midbass extension, and high efficiency.
> 
> Pick two
> 
> Unless you want to build kickpanels in the footwells, you are definitely going to want to sacrifice efficiency and get something with high power handling in an IB setup in the doors.
> 
> Wait, are you OK with building kickpanels?


eventually yes.. but that still leaves me with something to do with my doors... if i were to do kickpanels as i said earlyer i would probably then step up to a pair of 8 mids unless running 8s in the kicks isn't recommended.

i was thinking eventually i could do a 3way setup with 8" woofers in the kickpanels... a high efficiency 6.5 midrange driver like the 6mdn44 in the doors... and then the horns under the dash... whatcha think?


----------



## Eric Stevens

1edgekilla said:


> hmm...that changes everything but good to know.
> 
> Eric, what would be my best options if I were to try and stick with 6.5's paired along side the horns... w/o stepping up to an 8" that is? Possibly 3 way 6.5's...Woofer, Midrange, Horn?
> 
> Thanks for you input!


Well it seems that you want high output and SQ. My suggestion would be to run 2 ea 6.5" drivers at the higher end of the efficiency range I suggested 91 ~ 92dB and run more power to get them to keep up with the top end. Specifically at least 150 watts per speaker which means 300 x 2 total which or even higher.

I have heard many impressive systems that were loud enough to impress most listeners with only 1 pair of 6.5" drivers. If you are a long time enthusiast used to what a single 6.5 can do and want more then consider my recommendation.

The install is SO VERY important to getting really good midbass that I cant stress proper install enough.

Alot of the impact we think is coming from the 6.5" midbass is actually produced by the subwoofer so you need a sub that is capable of tight accurate output to over 90 Hz for the system to work together as a whole. We are building a system and it all must work together.

Eric


----------



## 1edgekilla

Eric Stevens said:


> Well it seems that you want high output and SQ. My suggestion would be to run 2 ea 6.5" drivers at the higher end of the efficiency range I suggested 91 ~ 92dB and run more power to get them to keep up with the top end. Specifically at least 150 watts per speaker which means 300 x 2 total which or even higher.
> 
> I have heard many impressive systems that were loud enough to impress most listeners with only 1 pair of 6.5" drivers. If you are a long time enthusiast used to what a single 6.5 can do and want more then consider my recommendation.
> 
> The install is SO VERY important to getting really good midbass that I cant stress proper install enough.
> 
> Alot of the impact we think is coming from the 6.5" midbass is actually produced by the subwoofer so you need a sub that is capable of tight accurate output to over 90 Hz for the system to work together as a whole. We are building a system and it all must work together.
> 
> Eric


well right now im in the process of picking up two IDQ10's to run sealed for my lowend. I have one set of XS65's waiting to replace the CXS62's i currently have installed... would picking up another set of those to have dual 65's in each door be worthy as far as what you considered?


----------



## Horsemanwill

yes that would work great. i run dual x65 mids in each door not x69 i didn't wanna wait for the 6x9s when i got mine . i run a 700.2 stereo to my mids and it matches with my horns ran off a 700.2 nicely.


----------



## 1edgekilla

Horsemanwill said:


> yes that would work great. i run dual x65 mids in each door not x69 i didn't wanna wait for the 6x9s when i got mine . i run a 700.2 stereo to my mids and it matches with my horns ran off a 700.2 nicely.


one 700.2 per pair of mids/door so 2 700.2's on just the mids? also... i was looking at it today idk if i could get dual mids in my doors... what about one pair in the doors and one in the kicks?


----------



## Eric Stevens

1edgekilla said:


> one 700.2 per pair of mids/door so 2 700.2's on just the mids? also... i was looking at it today idk if i could get dual mids in my doors... what about one pair in the doors and one in the kicks?


Will has a Q700.2 running in stereo 2 ohms with 4 X65 total. This at 12.5 volts will do 350 x 2 so each x65 is has the potential for 175 watts.

Yes you can have 1 set in the doors and another in the KP, not perfect but you probably couldn't tell the difference it would be so small.

Eric


----------



## Horsemanwill

ya wat eric said lol


----------



## Brian_smith06

Im the one who was going to run a pair of x65 mids per door with a 700 per set  copied off of will though


----------



## Horsemanwill

but turned out to be too chicken to do it


----------



## Brian_smith06

When you're right you're right. Lol. In my defense though I decided not to do anything else like that until I get a car worth doing it on.

Plus I finally sold my horns anyway :/ and lost a ton on them :/


----------



## S3T

Why so much powa?
Won't 50w per driver make enuff juice? I'm going with a pair of peerless HDS 6.5's 8ohm, and some planet audio [email protected], in hope i'll get some punchiness, won't i? Oh my...


----------



## Horsemanwill

we are firm belivers of overhead


----------



## Brian_smith06

I suppose I could still run a 700 per mid


----------



## 1edgekilla

Brian_smith06 said:


> I suppose I could still run a 700 per mid


holy sh!t... talk about overhead haha


----------



## Horsemanwill

eh it's been done


----------



## 1edgekilla

Horsemanwill said:


> eh it's been done


haha i bet.. i just can't make up my damn mind and what I want to do:shrug:


----------



## veritasz34

I used Dynaudio 8 mids in the kicks when I had mine. I wished I had used a driver with a little more sensativity. I recommend looking for a driver that has a high sensativity to use with horns..Just my opinion..


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

Horsemanwill said:


> i run dual x65 mids in each door


whoa. just realized that's what your sig meant. sick


----------



## S3T

My mids for horns...


----------



## BowDown

S3T said:


> My mids for horns...


Peerless HDS?


----------



## Ayanna

sounds good in the thread must have to apply practically................


----------



## madmaxz

Im going to be trying dual hertz HV 165XL's (93.5db, 40hz-6khz, 8mm xmax) in each door with ID Full's or minis. havent decided yet.. Thoughts on that? fulls vs minis?


----------



## Horsemanwill

depends on the vehicle. if you can fit full i'd say go full


----------



## subwoofery

madmaxz said:


> Im going to be trying dual hertz HV 165XL's (93.5db, 40hz-6khz, 8mm xmax) in each door with ID Full's or minis. havent decided yet.. Thoughts on that? fulls vs minis?


FYI, I modelled the HV 165XL and it's no where near 93.5dB but it is 88.012dB. I'd be looking at a much more efficient set of drivers - but that's just me  

Kelvin 

PS: I know what the spec sheet says BTW. The sensitivity I got is from calculations. From the specs it's not possible that it's more than 90dB efficient...


----------



## Eric Stevens

According to the T/S parameters on the spec sheet from the Hertz website and using LEAP to calculate the 1w/1m (2 volts for 4 ohms) nominal efficiency is 88.49dB.

They give an spl based upon 2.83 volts which is 2 watts into a 4 ohm speaker. Normalized for 1 watt it would be 90.5dB which is about 2 dB to the wishful side.

Not bad efficiency but certainly not what they are trying to market it as.

And the Xmax is a peak to peak figure so its only 4mm one way.

Eric


----------



## voltij

Eric, could you do the same with the B&C 8MDN51's?

I'm wondering if their claim to 97 dB is accurate.

B&C SPEAKERS 8MDN51

Thank you


----------



## minbari

voltij said:


> Eric, could you do the same with the B&C 8MDN51's?
> 
> I'm wondering if their claim to 97 dB is accurate.
> 
> B&C SPEAKERS 8MDN51
> 
> Thank you


winISD has it at 96.44dB


----------



## Eric Stevens

voltij said:


> Eric, could you do the same with the B&C 8MDN51's?
> 
> I'm wondering if their claim to 97 dB is accurate.
> 
> B&C SPEAKERS 8MDN51
> 
> Thank you


Yes at 2.83 volts its 97 dB 

Its nominal due to the lower Re is 96.4 dB as mentioned previously.

This driver will be great overall but will not do much at all below 120 Hz or so. Its useable range which is normally defined as its -10 db point happens according to their response chart at 100 Hz. To have some real fun with this driver use it in a ported enclosure for your midbass.

Eric


----------



## voltij

Eric Stevens said:


> Yes at 2.83 volts its 97 dB
> 
> Its nominal due to the lower Re is 96.4 dB as mentioned previously.
> 
> This driver will be great overall but will not do much at all below 120 Hz or so. Its useable range which is normally defined as its -10 db point happens according to their response chart at 100 Hz. To have some real fun with this driver use it in a ported enclosure for your midbass.
> 
> Eric


Thank you for the post Eric. Allow me to follow through

I own a pair of B&C 8NDL51, which say 65-3000 Hz at 94 dB sensitivity, and they have sufficient midbass and midrange. I was looking at the B&C 8MDN51 as a possible upgrade, since it says it has a freq range of 70-4000 Hz with 97 dB sensitivity. Would be no problem sacrificing 5 Hz of low end for 3 dB higher sensitivity.

The issue is that they were very loose with the frequency range of the 8MDN51. The -10dB occurs on the 8NDL at about 75 hz, and the 8MDN at about 100 Hz as you said.

So yes, it would be hard to use the MDN as a standalone midbass driver, especially if sealed. I'll just stick with the 8NDLs.


----------



## subwoofery

voltij said:


> Thank you for the post Eric. Allow me to follow through
> 
> I own a pair of B&C 8NDL51, which say 65-3000 Hz at 94 dB sensitivity, and they have sufficient midbass and midrange. I was looking at the B&C 8MDN51 as a possible upgrade, since it says it has a freq range of 70-4000 Hz with 97 dB sensitivity. Would be no problem sacrificing 5 Hz of low end for 3 dB higher sensitivity.
> 
> The issue is that they were very loose with the frequency range of the 8MDN51. The -10dB occurs on the 8NDL at about 75 hz, and the 8MDN at about 100 Hz as you said.
> 
> So yes, it would be hard to use the MDN as a standalone midbass driver, especially if sealed. I'll just stick with the 8NDLs.


Try to find a really low distortion subwoofer and use it higher (LP around 80Hz) - and master your tuning skills  

Kelvin


----------



## Patrick Bateman

voltij said:


> Thank you for the post Eric. Allow me to follow through
> 
> I own a pair of B&C 8NDL51, which say 65-3000 Hz at 94 dB sensitivity, and they have sufficient midbass and midrange. I was looking at the B&C 8MDN51 as a possible upgrade, since it says it has a freq range of 70-4000 Hz with 97 dB sensitivity. Would be no problem sacrificing 5 Hz of low end for 3 dB higher sensitivity.
> 
> The issue is that they were very loose with the frequency range of the 8MDN51. The -10dB occurs on the 8NDL at about 75 hz, and the 8MDN at about 100 Hz as you said.
> 
> So yes, it would be hard to use the MDN as a standalone midbass driver, especially if sealed. I'll just stick with the 8NDLs.


What about maximum output? When comparing two drivers, a driver with an efficiency of 90dB and 8mm of xmax will give you more output than a driver with an efficiency of 95dB and 2mm of xmax.

I think efficient drivers are nice, but efficiency is just one of many parameters that must be juggled.


----------



## minbari

Patrick Bateman said:


> What about maximum output? When comparing two drivers, a driver with an efficiency of 90dB and 8mm of xmax will give you more output than a driver with an efficiency of 95dB and 2mm of xmax.
> 
> I think efficient drivers are nice, but efficiency is just one of many parameters that must be juggled.


you may find that an example like that is nearly identical. the 90 db speaker is gonna need 4x the power to just get to 95db. so the lower xmax might be ok. now HE and a high xmax and your are golden


----------



## Eric Stevens

Patrick Bateman said:


> What about maximum output? When comparing two drivers, a driver with an efficiency of 90dB and 8mm of xmax will give you more output than a driver with an efficiency of 95dB and 2mm of xmax.
> 
> I think efficient drivers are nice, but efficiency is just one of many parameters that must be juggled.


Yes longer excursion will give you more low end output but not more output over the whole bandwidth the driver is being used for. 

Efficiency is useful but too much is counter productive as I pointed out with the B & C driver. You need to find the proper balance for the intended use.

Eric


----------



## jpeezy

Eric, what did you think of femmi's grand prix,when it had the 12 inch midbass in the kicks and the dash that was the horns? Also do you know where I can get pics of that car.


----------



## thehatedguy

It never worked right was what I was always told.


----------



## Eric Stevens

^^^^^^^ what he said^^^^^^^^^^

Staging was never right and the bottom end lacked impact, exactly the opposite of the expectation when you see it.

Eric


----------



## minbari

prolly no different than putting too big a sub in too small an enclosure. a 10" in the correct enclosure will sound better than jamming a 12" in one too small.


----------



## thehatedguy

Except Femi had IDW12s in the kicks of his Pontiac...either IDW15s or 18s in the trunk.

Eric and Matt had started calling me Femi because of the crazy ideas I had and wanted to try...lol.


----------



## jpeezy

Ok, so if someone had the right airspace,would you use a twelve inch midbass,what would be the pros and cons? I am thinking something prosound,94-98 db, selenium,or eminence? This midbass would be in the kick,which would be vented to outside of car,maybe even an a periodic setup?the drivers I am looking at have a qts. One is .69 the other is .77so they should work IB but Xmas is not very big. What do you guys think? Also looking for Idx-24 if anybody knows where I can find one.


----------



## thehatedguy

The Eminence Kappa Lite 12 is world class if you have the space and money for ir.


----------



## edzyy

what would mate better

6 id cxs's (2ohm) or 6 xs 65's?


----------



## Horsemanwill

why would you need 6 ?


----------



## edzyy

2 per door for midbass
1 in each kick for midrange


----------



## damonryoung

Help!

I'm considering using ID mini horn bodies w/ either the B&C DE500 or Selenium D2500 Ti. I really need help choosing a proper mid, for either...

I recently purchased a set of Silver Flute W14RC25-04 ohm 5-1/2" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store , but I fear that they may not be able to keep up... I purchased these due to good reviews and I wanted my kicks to be out of the way as possible... Now considering moving up to the Silver Flute W20RC38-04 ohm 8" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store and cutting into the wheel wells...

I was hoping to use a JL XD700/5 >> 75x4 + 180 to power the whole front end (with a JL 6W3v3 up front)... This may not cut it due to the power difference not being enough for the mids to "catch" up...

Also, thinking I could cross the horns over @ 1250-1500 and the mids @ 100-150...

Any and all feedback would be appreciated...


----------



## minbari

what you want is high sensitivity. the 5 1/2 is only 90db. the 8" is better at 93db.

the ID x65 is 92db or x69 @ 93db to give you an idea of a smaller door woof that would work.


----------



## subwoofery

DRTHJTA said:


> Help!
> 
> I'm considering using ID mini horn bodies w/ either the B&C DE500 or Selenium D2500 Ti. I really need help choosing a proper mid, for either...
> 
> I recently purchased a set of Silver Flute W14RC25-04 ohm 5-1/2" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store , but I fear that they may not be able to keep up... I purchased these due to good reviews and I wanted my kicks to be out of the way as possible... Now considering moving up to the Silver Flute W20RC38-04 ohm 8" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store and cutting into the wheel wells...
> 
> I was hoping to use a JL XD700/5 >> 75x4 + 180 to power the whole front end (with a JL 6W3v3 up front)... This may not cut it due to the power difference not being enough for the mids to "catch" up...
> 
> Also, thinking I could cross the horns over @ 1250-1500 and the mids @ 100-150...
> 
> Any and all feedback would be appreciated...


We're talking about efficiency this and efficiency that and even though it is an important part of the equation, we usually forget about one thing: power compression... 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1573018-post17.html (good thread to read) 

Not saying that the silver flute is a bad driver but I'd be scared to give it a lot of power. 
Regarding your JL XD question, you might need to find another amp for the horns and bridge the 700/5 for the mids - reason in the link I posted above. 
An XD200/2 should work nicely there...

Kelvin


----------



## damonryoung

subwoofery said:


> Not saying that the silver flute is a bad driver but I'd be scared to give it a lot of power.
> Regarding your JL XD question, you might need to find another amp for the horns and bridge the 700/5 for the mids - reason in the link I posted above.
> An XD200/2 should work nicely there...
> 
> Kelvin


So taking this into consideration and re-reading this thread, I have been on the hunt for another mid... Seriously considering the 8NDL51 B&C SPEAKERS and mating them with DE500 B&C SPEAKERS ... If I go with your recommendation of using the 700/5 bridged for the mids, how much are these mids going to suffer from only receiving around 100w?

I am attempting to put my amps and processor in this space 








(only 8.5" deep)
which is why I need small amps... I'm up for recommendations there too...


----------



## thehatedguy

That B&C is a good driver.

Shouldn't have problems with the power.


----------



## subwoofery

DRTHJTA said:


> So taking this into consideration and re-reading this thread, I have been on the hunt for another mid... Seriously considering the 8NDL51 B&C SPEAKERS and mating them with DE500 B&C SPEAKERS ... If I go with your recommendation of using the 700/5 bridged for the mids, how much are these mids going to suffer from only receiving around 100w?
> 
> I am attempting to put my amps and processor in this space
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (only 8.5" deep)
> which is why I need small amps... I'm up for recommendations there too...


Should work great with the power available. If you fear you might not have enough power then : 
Use your XD700/5 bridged front for the horns + sub channel for subwoofer (duh!) 
And use something like a PPI P900.4 bridged on the mids giving close to 290 watts to each mid. Don't worry, with the right highpass Xover, the 8NDL51 will take 290 watts like a champ 

Kelvin


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## nubz69

Is there a current 6.5" that really mates well with a pair of ID mini horns? Everything that I see that works well seems to be in the 8" range.


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## thehatedguy

Depends on how low you want them to play.

BMS, B&C, and 18Sound all have some really really nice 6s...just won't play low.


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## nubz69

thehatedguy said:


> Depends on how low you want them to play.
> 
> BMS, B&C, and 18Sound all have some really really nice 6s...just won't play low.


I think I am just looking for the holy grail. A 6.5" driver that has high efficiency and plays down to 60hz in door.


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## minbari

you absolutely can! but that will be your 2 out of 3 in hoffmans iron law.

Sensitivity and Hoffman’s Iron Law, or “why you can’t have your cake and eat it too”


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## damonryoung

If I'm using the 8NDL51 in my kicks, how low should I cross them over? 

Looking at data sheets, it kinda appears that should be cutoff around 125. If that's the case, will I be able to play my sub in the back up to 125?

If not, should I find some small driver to play between 60 or 80-125 and place it behind/below the radio?


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## subwoofery

DRTHJTA said:


> If I'm using the 8NDL51 in my kicks, how low should I cross them over?
> 
> Looking at data sheets, it kinda appears that should be cutoff around 125. If that's the case, will I be able to play my sub in the back up to 125?
> 
> If not, should I find some small driver to play between 60 or 80-125 and place it behind/below the radio?


With 100 watts going into your 8NDL51, you shouldn't have any problem playing them down to 80Hz... 

Kelvin


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## nubz69

minbari said:


> you absolutely can! but that will be your 2 out of 3 in hoffmans iron law.
> 
> Sensitivity and Hoffman’s Iron Law, or “why you can’t have your cake and eat it too”


I know about hoffmans law, I just hate it


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