# The more I look at Sinfoni



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Man they got some nasty looking frequency graphs.

I know the graphs don't tell the whole story but those mids are all over the place. 
They must need some drastic EQ cuts


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

inb4 sinfoni **** storm..


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I just want to understand what it's showing. 
I understand the dip at the impedance wobble but what about the others.


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## InstantCrush (Sep 2, 2015)

Can you link an example of what you're talking about?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

yikes, this does look nasty

http://www.sinfoni.com/speakers/grandioso/CF165W/CF165W.pdf


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

-+3db Looks typical for the driver of that class.
is this one looks better?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> -+3db Looks typical for the driver of that class.
> is this one looks better?


what class is that? i also see 7db dips in the link i posted. the one you posted is the scan 18w? just gets bunped at 1k. unlike sinfoni which is all over the place


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## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

Wouldn't the graph mean more if they told you if they used any kind of smoothing or not? I may be getting this mixed up with measuring with REW but to me if you want a speaker to look like a better response smoothing would be applied.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> what class is that? i also see 7db dips in the link i posted.


 revelator-18W/8531G-00 best driver ever made. $218 at madisound.
here is another scan speak for $76









so which one looks better on paper?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm going to do a driver upgrade with taxes, speakers and sub. Before I drop a lot of coin I want to know for a fact it's worth it. I was pretty dead set on the Mille, makes sense to me since I've liked every Hertz set I've used per price point. 
I would like to expand out to maybe Sinfoni if anyone can make sense of this.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

like it?









that would be illuminator, 300 bucks for single driver.

Point being don`t get hang up on graphs, they often don`t mean ****.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

etroze said:


> Wouldn't the graph mean more if they told you if they used any kind of smoothing or not? I may be getting this mixed up with measuring with REW but to me if you want a speaker to look like a better response smoothing would be applied.



if sinfoni is using smoothing on theirs, then thats even worse. theirs doesnt look so hot even if there was not smoothing





Victor_inox said:


> revelator-18W/8531G-00 best driver ever made. $218 at madisound.
> here is another scan speak for $76
> 
> 
> ...


looks very similar to the 18w. both have a great response up to 1k and then there is a shelf, but thats a very easy fix. sinfonis is just nuts. and yes i know FR doesnt show the whole picture, but im just not sure how speakers that supposedly sound so good, have a FR so bad


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> like it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, this is the aluminum cone version. pretty much every aluminum cone 6.5 - 7 inch on the market does this.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

scan disco looks best of them all so far.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> yeah, this is the aluminum cone version. pretty much every aluminum cone 6.5 - 7 inch on the market does this.


incorrect, that was paper this is aluminum


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## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

I meant more to play devils advocate there and wonder if other companies do smooth their graphs out and Sinfoni is being transparent with measurements.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

illuminator with paper cone


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

etroze said:


> I meant more to play devils advocate there and wonder if other companies do smooth their graphs out and Sinfoni is being transparent with measurements.


According to Scanspeak they don`t.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

but all this is irrelevant as soon as you DSP living crap out of them.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You would have to give up a lot of output potential to smooth out the Sinfonis


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vic, im not seeing that graph on any of the paper ones. but either way, the base of those peaks start at 3k. who is crossing 7" speakers over 3k? within their usable range, theyre almost perfectly flat for about 5 octaves. (80hz to 2k)


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

According to one well respected member who decided to PM me instead of posting here and i quote"Sinfoni does NOT smooth FR graphs... They show what they are...

However, big difference between them and most others... 

Sinfoni designs the speakers, then listens to them IN A CAR... then makes continual adjustments to the design until their sonic goal is met...

They design the amplifiers the SAME WAY."


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> vic, im not seeing that graph on any of the paper ones. but either way, the base of those peaks start at 3k. who is crossing 7" speakers over 3k? within their usable range, theyre almost perfectly flat for about 5 octaves. (80hz to 2k)


I agree- irrelevant.


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## stills (Apr 13, 2008)

Their price tag looks pretty ragged to me...


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## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> According to one well respected member who decided to PM me instead of posting here and i quote"Sinfoni does NOT smooth FR graphs... They show what they are...
> 
> However, big difference between them and most others...
> 
> ...


This is pretty interesting. I really would like to hear these compared to say the Scan's that were posted.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't mind paying if it's worth it. 
I found a dealer about 6 hours away. If I can get away I'll check them out and report back with a real opinion


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Jeebus. Unlike every other driver made (almost every driver) these were designed from the first time pen hit paper to be used ONLY in an IB setup in a car and they were made to compensate for the issues present in the majority of vehicles.

I can tell you first hand these take WAY less EQ than any other speaker I have tested to date. They are the only speaker I have used in my truck that sound good with zero EQ adjustments and that includes auto EQ. 
The Hertz, Stereo Integrity, Boston, Illusion, Infinity, Focals and several others I tested I would first auto EQ them and then dial in the user EQ to my taste. In all of those speakers the sound difference between auto EQ on and off was quite drastic. When setting the manual EQ I would have cuts and gains up to 9db.
With the Sinfoni there is very little difference with auto EQ on or off. Off they loose some detail in the 400-800 range and are a bit heavy in the 100-300 range. With it on and the user EQ flat every person at the sound competition went on and on about how great their sound and tonality is and how they performed.
In my current EQ settings I have a max of 2.5db gain in the 12-16k range (I like my tweeters a little bright) and a max cut of 1.5db at 300hz. 
So with MINIMAL auto EQ and almost no user EQ every single person that has listened to them left hating their own speakers and repeated over and over how they loved the sound and have never heard anything like them.


That's my two cents. Take it or leave it.


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## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

I take your work for it Bill, I really just want to compare after seeing graphs that's all . 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i would actually be interested in seeing a response graph of these in car without eq


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I think Andy Wehmeyer stated that Audiofrog drivers were voiced in the vehicle as well, or the design wasn't finalized until after listening tests in several vehicles were performed.

This may be the newest marketing spiel, as manufacturers invent new ways to build the mousetrap by actual practice instead of theory, and that should not be lost on DIY membership who are all about how things sound "in the car" as opposed to in the closet.

Graphs fall into that elusive theoretical scientific mumbo jumbo, the voicing of the drivers may actually account for some things in the car door's enclosure/environment, where a home audio driver such as the Revelator as splendid as they are at making music in home audio environments, and subsequently on graphs, don't translate quite as well as a driver that was produced to play off-axis in the doors of a car.

I'm not so sure of this new wrinkle but it seems to stand a fair bit of scrutiny and then there's the litany of happy Sinfoni owners who swear their speakers are the best they have yet to hear...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i would actually be interested in seeing a response graph of these in car without eq


 ask someone with them to share their eq settings in dsp.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> ask someone with them to share their eq settings in dsp.


yeah but that doesnt mean much. i wanna see the response of the speakers in a car or two


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> yeah but that doesn't mean much. i wanna see the response of the speakers in a car or two



mini vs Excursion?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> mini vs Excursion?


anything. just curious. maybe we can learn something to see if they truly did engineer their speakers to have a response that counteracts the average cars response. but, i know in my car, i had a natural dip at 400, so 400 hz with the ones i posted would be almost non existent lol


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I don't see how the Sinfoni could escape the effects of near field environment...especially when EVERY vehicle is different. I'm sure they sound good but whether you need EQ or not will be different for every install.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I don't see how the Sinfoni could escape the effects of near field environment...especially when EVERY vehicle is different. I'm sure they sound good but whether you need EQ or not will be different for every install.


wait, just a minute. a skeptic?


lol..

you mean to tell me the Sinfoni Gnadioh-so, (G is silent, like Gstaad, of course) is not some plum-cooked pot of audio blessings?

wait just a cotton pickin' moment, here.



er..


how is it that nobody has done this before, I mean we're chock full of nuts in this forum and you mean nobody has been able to create the sound field that the Sinfoni does, it's nonpareil and all? 

Like a Sno-Cap, then?

Sugar was cascading like an avalanche on a dark chocolate mountain, I don't mind the sun sometimes, the image Sinfoni throws, they were all in love with Maeostoso, they were doing it in Texas, drinking from a fountain, they were all giddy and ****, sliding down that mountain...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Caj, what the actual **** are you talking about? lol


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## crazhorse (Mar 9, 2010)

what didnt catch the butthole surfers reference??


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Caj, what the actual **** are you talking about? lol


Sinfoni people remind me of those itinerant tenants of the Butthole Surfers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO8vBVUaKvk


never know just how you look through other people's eyes...


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

cajunner said:


> wait, just a minute. a skeptic?
> 
> 
> lol..
> ...




:laugh:


Yup...they're pretty but they aren't magical


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## InstantCrush (Sep 2, 2015)

cajunner said:


> that should not be lost on DIY membership who are all about how things sound "in the car" as opposed to in the closet.


Well, in defense of that idea, most of my stuff spends at least as much time in the closet as it does in my car.

:laugh:

P.S. Those graphs look fine. No driver is ruler flat. If any datasheet shows them to be, it's either a lie or is smoothed far more. There are some a bit flatter, but those are reasonable.

In the home audio world, it's generally expected that crossovers on quality speakers will have some filtering to fix some of the flaws in the drivers used.

One of Focal's selling points for their inexpensive Access line was that it was flat enough to not require additional filters within the crossover.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

cajunner said:


> wait, just a minute. a skeptic?
> 
> 
> lol..
> ...


A Weeee bit too much moonshine bud. I am gonna need a translator for that little bit you wrote there


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

ndm said:


> A Weeee bit too much moonshine bud. I am gonna need a translator for that little bit you wrote there


 there is line here, get to the back. :laugh:


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

speaking of pretty drivers.......
pretty drivers usually sounds better and not because they pretty.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Its actually pronounced Grahn-d-o-so.


No sense arguing with ol caj though. Smart guy. Really seems to care. About what, I have no idea.

You seem to have an opinion on so many things that you have never touched or heard. You constantly insult builders and designers and arm chair quarterback every design that is made and insinuate you can do it better.

I have no doubt of your intelligence. You are a very smart individual but seem to lack application of that knowledge.

But I am not here to pick a fight with you even though you always seem to pick one with me.
So back to the topic at hand.


DDfusion; what I was getting at in my previous post is while numbers and graphs serve a purpose they do very little in telling you what a particular speaker will sound like in your specific application. I my experience the Sinfoni speakers sound superb. They are smoother and require less EQ to be flat than any other speaker I have ever tested or owned. In my reviews I always state I dont do numbers (besides the basics) or graphs, I just let people know how they sound and what little musical nuances they exhibit and how they perform in the real world with actual music instead of test tones.

To be perfectly frank most graphs I dont even understand. The ones in this thread I do, does not get any easier than db vs frequency and resistance vs frequency. That being said looking at the Grandioso graph it looks pretty dang goo for the 80-5k range. I have seen flat graphs on speakers that needed tons of EQ to get rid of hot spots that the graph does not show and have seen horrendous graphs where the speaker sounded good with no EQ.

But in the end I am just a dude that loves stereo systems and has a LOT less knowledge than most on this site. I do have enough of a disposable income to play with what I think I may like though so when I play with something I share the experience with others. Not everyone has the ability or want to spend a year going from Quart to Infinity to Boston to Illusion to Hertz to SI to Focal to Dynaudio to Sinfoni in the same application to see what performs best to them. I am very fortunate to have done so and in my opinion and every other single person that has heard them agrees that the Sinfonis just sound better.

I have yet to play with the Grandioso but that may soon change.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Hey hey, wait a minute!

isn't it better if I am honest and admit up front when I don't have experience with some of these fine pieces of audio state of the art?

lately there's been a bum rush, of sorts...


for the Sinfoni nuthugger's society and people I wouldn't have expected to see swinging from newcomer nads, are just giddy about it.


And maybe rightfully so? Hey, I'm not even going to play that game, I police myself and self-censor many posts for virtual "cliff-hangerisms," as in, I'm hangin' off a cliff if I press the post button.


So maybe I am a little too rough and tumble for some sensitive sorts that occupy space on the DIYMA rock, but I'll jump right in and defend somebody should they be attacked by the bear of politically incorrect bad news...

anyways.

Doesn't it come at you like it does me, the sudden interest in a brand, the rush to own a superlative piece or two, the magic of word of mouth advertising and the new world order discombobulating any semblance of a comparative study that meets with non-specific objectivity goals, then?



I hope a year from now, people aren't over Sinfoni and the Desiderio still rides the retail sky like a silver surfer, natch...


but don't be surprised if the fickle winds of the internet begin to blow around that Italian candle, and some less flattering reports based on measurement devices not stuck to the head of some aggressively agreeable chaps...


but what they hey.


I'm relatively harmless, aren't I?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I find it highly amusing when people claim brand X speaker is better than brand Y because it was designed ground up for an automotive environment and to sound great with minimal EQ, when installed in a car. Keep in mind that this is what the car does to ALL speakers, the cars environment does not discriminate between speakers based on brand, the price, the published FR, where and how you install them, how the speaker was designed, where it was made, etc etc. 

If this mess needs minimal eq with your magical speaker, then you're not listening closely enough and/or you've been drinking too much 'branded' kool aid.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So this is what I do understand. 
The ones that used or heard them love them
The ones that haven't are very sceptical


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> So this is what I do understand.
> The ones that used or heard them love them
> The ones that haven't are very sceptical


Really? That's your take?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Caj to me is like a seagull...flys around making senseless noise and gets some kind of odd pleasure crapping on everything..best to ignore imo.

I have been around this biz since the mid 80's and have owned just about every speaker out there, and most were lacking in something.

Sinfoni is lacking in NOTHING.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So has everyone got to hear them and not hear the price?
If they are in your budget is irrelevant.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

They're all lacking something, even Sinfoni. Saying it's lacking nothing is to say it's perfect, and there is no perfect speaker. They are all a set of compromises.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Perfect depending upon the vehicle's acoustics and listener's taste. In short, everyone is right.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

ndm said:


> A Weeee bit too much moonshine bud. I am gonna need a translator for that little bit you wrote there


People from up north think we southerners are crazy. Cajuns are crazy to southerners like myself. And my crazy ass country fried deep south brain understood every word for some strange reason. My French relatives actually came through Nawlins when immigrating to this great country and there's a street in the French quarter with my last name on it. I think me and Cajunner would get along great and understand every twisted thought spewed at each other.I think you have to have at least some degree of crazy in you to live this far south where the sun fries your brain like an egg.

Now that my crazy southern rambling is out of the way, my 6.5" midbass drivers don't measure flat but after installing them I had to take out most of the big cut at 250hz that was needed to tame one of the Scanspeak drivers posted above. So a ruler flat graph isn't the bees knees after all when every make and model of vehicle cabin is unique. A designer can still put the in-car measurements in a pile and design an average amount of fookery into the speaker to make it a little less tempermental out of the gate.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

some random thoughts..

I've never seen anyone build a speaker around a car. There is _no one _here who can or will _ever _design a speaker to counteract the car's effect on the response in any appreciable way (ie; I'll state the 'target' is ruler flat from 80-20khz, you build a driver that is +1/-1dB throughout and can be moved from any car to any other car with the same results; you can't even do it for one car and one specific install). So let's all quit being ignorant and acting as if a driver can be designed for all vehicles in this regard. If you want to argue this, man up and accept the challenge. I'm done.
If you want to talk about the T/S parameters being such that it's suited for a typical car audio door, or you want to say that it's mounting scheme is suited for a particular type install, or you want to say it's cone is designed to take the abuse of the car environment... then... then I'm totally on board. But to design a speaker that will provide the inverse FR of what the car install causes and hit a given target curve (not to mention how hotly debated _that _topic itself is)... by the design? Please. 


Comparing a driver's response noting it's non-linearity OUTSIDE of the pistonic range (beaming point) to a driver's dips/peaks WITHIN it's pistonic range is not in any way an apples to apples comparison. 


I wonder how the sinfoni was measured. IEC baffle? Near field/far field merging? This stuff matters... a WHOLE lot more than the above-average consumer realizes.




If anyone even thinks for a second to jump on me from the point of "oh, he's attacking sinfoni": reconsider. I didn't say anything bad about the brand at all. My post is more about the comments in this thread and a general curiosity about how the sinfoni driver is measured (which may in fact explain some of the non-linearities seen in the FR). So before someone gets bent out of shape... chill.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

For the price I`d think they should measure every driver and provide printed graph. 
basket constructed of 20 individual parts is completely unnecessary from sound quality perspective but increased manufacturing cost consumer has to pay.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

Very well said Erin !
Thank you so much for posting your thoughts and insight...

There is NO perfect speaker out there... NONE... as much as I like the Sinfoni speakers, they are not perfect... nor have I ever stated they are perfect... I have stated that of all the various speakers I've used over the 20 plus years I've been in this hobby... I've been most impressed with both the Maestoso and the Grandioso... 

Most vehicles of similar size exhibit similar sonic tendencies. It is my belief that Sinfoni takes these tendencies into consideration when designing their speaker systems. As most understand, different materials and construction designs also exhibit general tendencies due to their nature. If one takes these various aspects into account when engineering a speaker... The speaker will need very little EQ adjustments right out of the box...

As for the modular frame... Their goal was to create a frame that exhibits maximum rigidity, thus the maximum amount of acoustic energy will be focused on the moving parts. Very similar to why automakers have adopted the use of modular engines...

Hope that made sense to everyone....

Best wishes


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)




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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

custom engineering speaker for certain car in mind is engineering nightmare- I bet nobody will ever do that. not to mention limited market .


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Caj is right. There is a full blown Sinfoni epidemic plaguing the forum. Forget the price for a minute, the kind of claims being made about the product in this thread and the other one defy logic.

One member says all speakers have defects but the Sinfoni's are perfect. This from someone who runs a sinfoni mid bass in a 2 way. So let's assume said member was running X mid bass and Y tweeter earlier so,

X mid bass (less than perfect) + Y tweeter (less than perfect) = Less than perfect soound.

Now 

Sinfoni midbass (perfect) + Y tweeter (less than perfect) = perfect sound??

Another member claims these were designed ground up for an automotive environment. Ok let's accept that for a min. Now anyone designing a 2 way for use in a car will know that the mids will be mounted low and tweets up high to pull up the stage height. But most importantly the tweet should have a low Fs so that you can cross it lower on steeper slopes to lift the height. This becomes even more important if you're3 charging the customer 2G for the tweets. What do we have? A tweeter with an Fs of 1500. Heck my $200 Scans have an Fs of 800hz. While on numbers, there hardly any numbers of any relevance available for the speakers

"But wait", say the fans, "Ignore the silly numbers, these drivers were designed to play with each other and blend beautifully". Really? How two drivers blend is down to the xover and slopes you use and how the FR is eq'd for each driver in the +/- 1 octave region around the xover point. That's it.

"No, No, No, these speakers are the best because they need less eq than other cheaper speakers, remember how they were designed to sound better in the car?" I think Andy's graphs debunk that theory. 

"But wait, they sound amazingly perfect to my ears." Really? the same ears that can't tell the difference in sound between drivers mounted on baffles in a room and the same drivers in a car? Ok, I'll take your opinion with a shovel full of salt.

When all else fails, "You're just a hater cause you can't afford them"  Nope, I just don't like being ripped off. YMMV.

Going by the rash of people who have suddenly discovered love for Sinfoni and acquired said products, there is obviously a "nudge, wink, I can get you a 50% off deal" happening in the back ground somewhere. So the customer now has a 5G speaker for 2G and obviously thinks its the bee's knee's. They will go to any lengths to promote said product and company.

You know what? Even if you got them at 70% off, the company is still making a 3X gross margin and laughing all the way to the bank. There's one born every minute.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Caj is right. There is a full blown Sinfoni epidemic plaguing the forum. Forget the price for a minute, the kind of claims being made about the product in this thread and the other one defy logic.
> 
> One member says all speakers have defects but the Sinfoni's are perfect. This from someone who runs a sinfoni mid bass in a 2 way. So let's assume said member was running X mid bass and Y tweeter earlier so,
> 
> ...


brb, starting another petition to get the thanks button back.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I bet for the right amount of money anything is possible. Doesn't make business sense to custom design a speaker set for a specific car and install but if some audiophile purist threw enough money at a high end company I'm sure it would at least be considered.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

sqnut:
My friend... we are all entitled to our own thoughts and opinions. The purpose of this forum is to share those thoughts and opinions... and it's a GREAT thing !

My goal was to simply share my enthusiasm and experience with the Sinfoni product, and that will not change. Once my system build is complete I will be sharing more of my thoughts as well as providing a completed build log...

Now, it's very obvious you don't believe anything coming out of my mouth... that's OK... no worries. 

I've found a brand that I believe in... and I want to share this with others... Not everyone has it all figured out... Hoping my journey and opinions might be useful to others...

Thanks guys, best wishes


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You don't need to design speakers for a car. Just design good speakers and integrating them into a car is what tuning is all about.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Join team Jamo!





















http://www.parts-express.com/jamo-24394-6-1-2-treated-paper-woofer-6-ohm--299-930


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Bayboy said:


> Join team Jamo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Put them in the car and they too will measure like Andy's graph I posted .


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I already have.... wasn't half bad by any means (better than RS180). Car's acoustics still applied so...


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

Guys, it's simple.

Take this:




Design a speaker with a response such as this:




And you get this:




Am I the only one who gets it?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQram said:


> Am I the only one who gets it?


i wonder if sinfoni offers a model with a response ****ed up enough to cater to my car. :laugh:


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQram said:


> Guys, it's simple.
> 
> Take this:


Keep in mind this will vary from car to car, install location etc etc. It will be equally messed up, just slightly differently and now it won't sum to zero.




SQram said:


> Am I the only one who gets it?


Quick, apply for a patent. That said you do have software which can sum it to zero.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Audiophiles who spent 100 grand on stereo setup will swear to God it`s the absolute best they ever heard and that will be true, In their honest opinion. 
Not for a single second I questioned anyone opinion on speakers in question.
But the truth is there is no miracle in loudspeaker design since inception of the concept of electromechanical device they all are. it`s slow and expensive evolution instead.
For me it`s not a matter of price, I can afford any speakers made today. it`s a matter of return on investment. 
People who invested heavily tend to protect that investment sometimes at the cost of common sense.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)




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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Keep in mind this will vary from car to car, install location etc etc. It will be equally messed up, just slightly differently and now it won't sum to zero.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I will design a "special" coating to be applied on the cone so those particular rules of physics do not "stick".


Hmmm...patent you say...BRB.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So I'm taking nobody has heard them that don't own them...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Doubtfully


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> So I'm taking nobody has heard them that don't own them...


I'm sure they sound great. I think most are just debunking some random ideas that have been conveyed...just like I originally noted; they aren't magical.

I think a well built speaker has the ability to sound any way you so choose. How does it sound functioning outside of it's design? I have no idea. Warm? Tinny? like it has OCPD? I don't know.

Find what fits your install requirements and tune. I've my had my realization that the car plays a larger role as to sound characteristics, tone, timbre...whatever. So be certain the speaker stats match what you require. Then install and start tuning. If your DSP or HU doesn't have the required features to fix the issues at hand...make a choice.

I used to think that brand characteristics mattered.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I run a MS-8 so it don't really matter. I'm sure any speaker will sound good like they already do. 
My main concern, is the $1500 set $650 better than the Mille set I know I love. 

To be honest, any "upgrade" is probably pointless at this point. So saying that I have to make the right choice and stick to it.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I have an MS-8 too. I installed with the factory speakers and at low levels(within the parameters of those horrible speakers) it sounded quite phenomenal.

They certainly didn't match my Audiofrog's I have now but I was very impressed what a good tune can really do to a pair of speakers.

I would tell you that a cheap 3-way might be better than an expensive 2-way depending on your goals. You are more than capable with tuning since you have the MS-8. yeah, I think 3-way would be your best bet.

After tuning, I don't think there's going to be a substantial difference between them and the Mille set.

But do you want to get loud? That's where you'll start to realize that your mid-bass can't keep up or the mid-range breakup is just awful. If you're looking to spend that much money I'd even tell you to try out Audiofrog GB15 and GB60. I really like the install options that 3-way provides though.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I have HSK XLs now and they get louder than I would need, used them for a few years now. I'm not modding this car like the last one, it was a 3 way with ZR800s in the doors. TBH I like the rear fill ambiance just using the stock rears off MS-8 power.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Then I'd say grab a pair of GB15s and you're good to go. I may get the passives(or build my own) for the GB10, GB25 so I can do the same in the future


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I wholeheartedly believe that once you going active you don`t need best speakers money can buy. DSP will compensate for imperfection in speakers, amplifiers,etc....
as processing speed of those units going up, more and better processing algorithms emerge. 
So tip of the day- buy best DSP you can afford, sell it for pennies on the dollar in one year after next best released..... repeat........
Or don`t compromise at all buy best stuff money can buy from the ground up and blame your tuner when something doesn`t work right.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

It has been pointed out to me that you guys won`t pick up sarcasm in my last post, so here it goes:

why to pursue perfection if 300 bucks device can compensate for a lack of experience, quality, craftsmanship? domb down solutions for dumb down society. 

Highest possible quality is not for everyone, we became society of "good enough"
but my "good enough" is major overspending for 95% of others,my wife included. She is happy with music her iShit produced with build in speaker. 
someone happy with PE buyout, most happy with overhyped mediocrity such as HAT, hertz, audison,etc... because that is what they being told on the forum, but about everyone has to express their superiority criticizing how I spend MY money.
Drop it people, let us enjoy the hobby and stop counting how others spend their dollars and what they believe at the end of the day.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> It has been pointed out to me that you guys won`t pick up sarcasm in my last post, so here it goes:
> 
> why to pursue perfection if 300 bucks device can compensate for a lack of experience, quality, craftsmanship? domb down solutions for dumb down society.
> 
> ...



So where does Scan fall in when used in our application


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> So where does Scan fall in when used in our application


If we go by Vic's word, probably overpriced mediocrity.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

Scan Speak are very nice speakers...

The Revs. and Illuminators are just fantastic sounding... 
.......disclosure: this is my personal opinion and not based in fact.......

sqnut:
If processing is so important... why did you bother using the Genesis amplifiers ?
Lots of other less expensive options available that would do the job.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Team Jamo!


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> So where does Scan fall in when used in our application


 above average. It`s beyond me why anyone spend more on hat setup when SS can be had for less, made better and sounds better without processing.
there is no such thing as designed for a car`s ****ty FR. 

People like phase plug- here we go phase plugs on 8" drivers
and it doesn`t matter what marketing driving you to believe, at frequency those 8" used phase plug is a waste of material and money. 
People want a kilowatt for midbass drivers- absolutely unnecessary and never utilized for more than 10% of potential but it`s nice to have. 
It`s like when people spent 15 grand on stainless steel watch. why on earth they do that when 30 bucks casio is more precise, and durable, technically doing better job than any mechanical time piece.

Just like in watches, cars, (insert you favorite money wasting activity)
in car audio some demand best possible others trying to reach that goal by trial and error.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

sqnut said:


> If we go by Vic's word, probably overpriced mediocrity.


I`d answer for myself if you don`t mind.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> sqnut:
> If processing is so important... why did you bother using the Genesis amplifiers ?
> Lots of other less expensive options available that would do the job.


I bought the Genesis before I realized how important processing and tuning were. When I got them, I honestly believed that they put me in sonic nirvana for about six months. This was about the time I was going back and forth between the 2ch at home and the car trying to pick differences and make the car sound more like the 2ch. Once I started hearing the differences, I realized that the sound in the car sucked despite the Genesis. 

That's when I got down to serious tuning and a couple of years down the line the car finally started to sound decent. Then I had a slight accident with one of the Genesis blush and had to send it in for minor repairs. So in the interim I swapped in my old Polk 4x75 watter and I noticed that the sound was no different. Yes there was a difference in how loud it would get and dynamics were slightly better with the Genesis (more head room), but tonally, there wasn't any issues with the Polk.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> above average. It`s beyond me why anyone spend more on hat setup when SS can be had for less, made better and sounds better without processing.
> there is no such thing as designed for a car`s ****ty FR.
> 
> People like phase plug- here we go phase plugs on 8" drivers
> ...


I've had my Tag Heuer for 7 years now. It's worn everyday. Been threw 2 carrier deployments hitting every metal door on the ship. It looks BRAND NEW. That's what you pay for with a watch. 

You're a SS fan. Cool, every driver that cost at least $200 per better be good and last forever in my mind. Like my middle of the road, overpriced Hertz have.


----------



## etroze (Dec 24, 2013)

Things that have stood out to me weather they were specifically stated or not and OP still hasn't had his question answered IMO.
1. Get tuning 100% then try different drivers. 
2. Buy the most power you can in your favorite amp brand. (cheap or expensive you pick)
3. I still want to hear the Sinfoni's period and then try them with another top tier driver.
4. An opinion is like an ******* everyone has one.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> I've had my Tag Heuer for 7 years now. It's worn everyday. Been threw 2 carrier deployments hitting every metal door on the ship. It looks BRAND NEW. That's what you pay for with a watch.
> 
> You're a SS fan. Cool, every driver that cost at least $200 per better be good and last forever in my mind. Like my middle of the road, overpriced Hertz have.


I`m not fan of anything...... that`s a major difference between us. 
I don`t get butt hurt when someone speaks unfavorable about MY choices of spending My money.
People are truly pathetic.

Ohhh and by the way that`s what YOU pay for the watch, my criteria is different only Tag Heuer I`d consider is Grand Carrera- everything else they make is mediocre at best without horological significance- That what I buy my watches for. and looks of course.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Scrolling back into the days of Npdang at the helm will enlighten some minds. Not to say that all upper tier priced goods aren't worth the coin, but at some point comes a bit of sensibility in realizing the line of diminishing returns and when that line should not be pushed. For years it has gone beyond that.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You are just a mad hater of everything. 
People actually buy your stuff? 
I would never give you a cent
I bet it's miserable living with you


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> You are just a mad hater of everything.
> People actually buy your stuff?
> I would never give you a cent
> I bet it's miserable living with you


I have waiting list 3 month long... i would never take your money just like I refused before few people here. can give you their names I bet you`d find what to talk about with them. 
What`s funny is that YOU calling me a hater in the same post you publically hate me. 
I`m not available , so you better ask my wife of 12 years how is it living with me.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So you are just a keyboard commando. Got it


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> So you are just a keyboard commando. Got it


 I'm interested in process your brain works or rather doesn`t.
How you came to that conclusion based on post above is defined logic.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

How did we even end up here?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> How did we even end up here?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


 look, Nick finally got himself good phone... :laugh:


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> How did we even end up here?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Because of team Jamo


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> look, Nick finally got himself good phone...


I like my old HTC one better

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> Because of team Jamo


good one:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> I like my old HTC one better
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


really, better than 8 core Samsung? how is that?


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> I have waiting list 3 month long...


Is that because you spend all day on these forums?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> really, better than 8 core Samsung? how is that?


theres just nothing special about this one. its a tad faster, but the bluetooth connectivity sucks ass, and you have to do it all manually. not daily driver audio friendly. doesnt even display artist/track on the head unit


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SQram said:


> Is that because you spend all day on these forums?


 how else I`d keep in touch? public relations is very important.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> theres just nothing special about this one. its a tad faster, but the bluetooth connectivity sucks ass, and you have to do it all manually. not daily driver audio friendly. doesnt even display artist/track on the head unit


 bluetooth in my galaxy 6 edge is best to date I used.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd rather have goldtooth.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> theres just nothing special about this one. its a tad faster, but the bluetooth connectivity sucks ass, and you have to do it all manually. not daily driver audio friendly. doesnt even display artist/track on the head unit


wait a second, mine connected automatically and start playing music in default music player all without my intervention. considering that guts in our phones exactly the same I believe it`s HU or operator`s error.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Npdang always stated that he thought about $300 for a set of components with/without passive crossover was where diminishing returns started to be too much.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)




----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> wait a second, mine connected automatically and start playing music in default music player all without my intervention. considering that guts in our phones exactly the same I believe it`s HU or operator`s error.


Old phone worked 100% the day I got this new one. 100% the phone. Other people reported same issue

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Caj is right. There is a full blown Sinfoni epidemic plaguing the forum. Forget the price for a minute, the kind of claims being made about the product in this thread and the other one defy logic.
> 
> One member says all speakers have defects but the Sinfoni's are perfect. This from someone who runs a sinfoni mid bass in a 2 way. So let's assume said member was running X mid bass and Y tweeter earlier so,
> 
> ...


i never said it was a perfect speaker...all i said was that i personally didn't notice anything that it was lacking. I'm sure there are better speakers out there that i have yet to hear, but of the 50 so brands i have heard this one is pretty special.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Old phone worked 100% the day I got this new one. 100% the phone. Other people reported same issue
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


 I guess I`m lucky one. or perhaps your carrier firmware is the problem.
what is it? Verizon?


----------



## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Npdang always stated that he thought about $300 for a set of components with/without passive crossover was where diminishing returns started to be too much.


I enjoyed reading those old posts. I didn't post much, but sure did do a whole lot of reading.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

what I actually have problem with is that "if it`s cost a lot they must be ripping me off" attitude.
Not necessarily the case for many high end items, cars, speakers,etc..


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> Scrolling back into the days of Npdang at the helm will enlighten some minds. Not to say that all upper tier priced goods aren't worth the coin, but at some point comes a bit of sensibility in realizing the line of diminishing returns and when that line should not be pushed. For years it has gone beyond that.


I miss the way this forum used to be before the high end audiophiles ruined it. I spent a few years reading before I joined and I used to love reading npdang's reviews or about the newest 20 dollar buyout woofer or tweeter that people were raving about. It really did change my perspective.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

hurrication said:


> I miss the way this forum used to be before the high end audiophiles ruined it. I spent a few years reading before I joined and I used to love reading npdang's reviews or about the newest 20 dollar buyout woofer or tweeter that people were raving about. It really did change my perspective.


Some of us still practice that from time to time.... keeps one grounded.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Am I allowed to voice my opinion and chime in or would it not matter because I am a Sinfoni dealer?

I heard this one the other day: Opinions are like orgasms, only mine matters and I don't care if you have one.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> what I actually have problem with is that "if it`s cost a lot they must be ripping me off" attitude.
> Not necessarily the case for many high end items, cars, speakers,etc..


this is not my 'tude.

there are superlative things being built in the world and it's awesome when something hits with this kind of impact, the game changes and there will be even authentic companies throwing themselves into the Sinfoni engineered copyrights, banging away to become "like Sinfoni" because of the response.

Diamond had this type of impact, back when the Eton drivers hit the market and people got a chance to hear sandwich cones for the first time in a car, there was a devout following for HEX anything, then along came the second line, there was hardly any downside as every speaker using high technology cones where damping and high rigidity can happen, is a good thing.


And hand-painted cones is nothing new. I have a pair of Allison that used Bexene (plastic) cones, all hand doped with some viscous ****, 25 years later that stuff is still sticky. 

Hand painting cones is a traditional approach, actually. Using two-layer, dual density was the ****, before sandwich took center stage.

Anyways, I too believe very little in marketing claims, I am interested in the magic that Sinfoni releases upon opening the box/bag/ whatevers, as if people are stunned from the insertion of the anal probe, and now are under the spell and direct connection to Sinfoni central command...

okay, a little anal reference may be a blooper, a freaking blooper!


and the suggestion that some speaker designers specifically create drivers with voicing, and their off-axis response using a phase lens over tweeter domes and/or curvilinear cone structures on the midranges, is not that far off...


it is a marketing certainty as JBL specifically addresses the 30 degrees off-axis, and compares it to 35 degrees off-axis. A crossover can be voiced to produce a simple transition using the plate speaker maxim, or it can be designed to accommodate a dash tweeter, door mid option. This is probably as good as you'll get, since most people are not going to wrap their A-pillars to give the tweeters another look, but if a speaker company were to design a crossover for that particular accommodation, and perhaps built an active crossover for the speakers a la Bose 901's and their active equalizer, wouldn't that really chap some hides?

it's not that I am insinuating that I can do it better, I am just throwing out ideas, because I like it, it's an activity and it keeps my mind sharp...


and when I say I'm concerned, it really is just to shape the assumption that would come later where someone says "yeah, those Sinfoni? I got them for a great deal from Emilios, he wanted some visibility on the forum" and that's what I am dredging the sands for, a little kernel of truth to come with the waves of nuthugging ugly betties, hot for a debate and looking to pigeonhole and pilfer, anyone saying otherwise...


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

To the guys that are seriously Interested in discussion mobile audio in an adult manner.... I appologize....

For some reason you feel the need to be the smartest guy in the room or forum in this case... and exert your self imposed status of Forum Expert... however in reality.... you are simply a very small sanctimonious (censored)....


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> i never said it was a perfect speaker...all i said was that i personally didn't notice anything that it was lacking. I'm sure there are better speakers out there that i have yet to hear, but of the 50 so brands i have heard this one is pretty special.





hurrication said:


> I miss the way this forum used to be before the high end audiophiles ruined it. I spent a few years reading before I joined and I used to love reading npdang's reviews or about the newest 20 dollar buyout woofer or tweeter that people were raving about. It really did change my perspective.


 I feel same way about SPL guys ruining this forum after they ruined caraudio.com.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SQ_TSX said:


> To the guys that are seriously Interested in discussion mobile audio in an adult manner.... I appologize....
> 
> For some reason you feel the need to be the smartest guy in the room or forum in this case... and exert your self imposed status of Forum Expert... however in reality.... you are simply a very small sanctimonious *******....


in reality I am not exerting anything.

now if you had come up with a price, if you had defended the claim of Sinfoni being worth the money by saying you paid retail for your sets of speakers, or maybe even just a decent deal like, 200 bucks off the top for the stack of amps or the pair of Grandioso driver components, just to show me up...

that would have been GREAT!


unlike many others, I enjoy being put in my place and told what's what, by the latest gadget pusher... who happens to be an actual expert in mobile audio and not normally stooping, or dropping to an insult-laden post filled with some sort of misplaced vitriol...


so please, allow me the honor of wearing egg on my face and tell me that the recent rash of people sporting Sinfoni in their rides, are NOT, and have not been compensated for the near-constant flood of superlatives?

I'm always a skeptic and maybe that rubs people the wrong way, I see things that form relationships and usually there's a money incentive somewhere, I believe we've already had an admission where the distributor is sending sets of speakers to shops to audition, on his dime...


and if you're affiliated with a shop, if you're sponsored by a team, if you're the spokesperson for the North American market I can respect that.

And really, I don't even care!


It's nice, the speakers look great, the amps are indubitable awesome, I look at my Van Gogh amps and they appear to be muscular copies of that clean Sinfoni design, as if the chromed, thicker end caps and that curve in the sink that resembles the bulge of a bicep, as if to say, this is America's version of the Italian sensibility...

and even a little wrong-way rubbing of the fur is still attention, right?


not everything has to run like clockwork, for the most part and attempts to straighten out the readership with persistent charges of obsequious nature, serve to derail the good this thread achieves. Achieves on a high level I might add, I particularly enjoyed your review bits, and having access to those cutaway and production, unfinished pieces was great stuff, I hope you know that what I put out there is not in competition with your fine work?

if you must bash me, a sanctimonious (censored) is not that bad, really... I mean, 


I can accept that.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Since I'm on neutral ground I think it's easy and quite imperative that I state something that's obvious. People don't know how to concede or at least gracefully, which can be viewed as continuance. Perhaps it is... who knows, who cares. 

Thing is I brought up the point about Npdang because I lurked years ago before getting up the nerve to join. I did so because things were quite technical, but mainly the whole tenure of the site was not about who spent the most money, rather finding viable equipment & optimizing the setup while "beating the system" so to speak (no pun intended). While that may offend some, I still stand by that as it is how this forum began. If you naysay, then go back into the archives where many things said to this day are mere regurgitation of the past. 

Perhaps it has morphed some over the years as gear has improved, but it stands to reason to keep basis with the beginning no matter how far one chooses to venture. Meaning... have understanding and not build up this look of snootiness or envy regardless of what side of the fence you choose to be on. Yet, it appears much is at stake for quite a few and while I can understand from a limited point, I can't understand one who can not step inside the other's shoes for a moment to get a foothold even within his own perspective. Going through this thread, it is easy to see the back & forth with crisscrossing just a few replies later. Hearing vs listening... 

Anyways.... enough of the rambling. The line of respect will always be at this level whether upfront or hidden underneath and that's sad.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> Caj to me is like a seagull...flys around making senseless noise and gets some kind of odd pleasure crapping on everything..best to ignore imo.
> 
> I have been around this biz since the mid 80's and have owned just about every speaker out there, and most were lacking in something.
> 
> Sinfoni is lacking in NOTHING.


I've been around this biz since the early eighties and have only experienced perhaps, one, one thousandth, of what's been put out there.

I guess if you were exaggerating about how much experience you have, and how many speakers you actually have owned, then we can use that metric to discount your judgement of Sinfoni as well.

which coincidentally, makes your input measurable by that same metric, in our parallel universe of common core thoughts.

I'm a seagull who gets odd pleasure, you know in a way that's sort of pleasant, I fed seagulls from my boat when I was shrimping, they always caught whatever I threw them in the air, where many others they let it drop to the water first.



I think if you can be trusted by a seagull, that says something.



:laugh:


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Cajunner:
Why are you asking me about a price ? What in the world does that have to do with anything we've been trying to discuss...

It's very clear all you care to do is stir the preverbial pot and keep people in an uproar. 

When DIYMA first started it was all about a community of like minded people helping each other... I can't recall a positive, well intentioned post from you... 

As most members will atest... I try to help others on the forum as best as possible. That simply is not the case with you.

I am not currently connected with Sinfoni in any way... I am not connected with Audio Excellent in any way.... I am not an official spokesman in any way....

I have found a product line that I personally believe in... it's the real deal... period...

As for your personal beliefs and/or thoughts ... I really don't care what they might be... and sir, you mention my bashing you.... really sir... you have essentially called me a bold face liar... I do not take kindly to that as it was completely unwarranted. ..


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I can answer retail pricing questions for anyone interested !!!!!!!


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> I can answer retail pricing questions for anyone interested !!!!!!!


Why so much secrecy, post the list in the open.


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Also, if I have stated anything in my review posts that any member feels is deceitful. ... misleading.... or an outright lie... please feel free to bring to the forums attention right here, right now....

Let's clear the air gentleman. ... I use that term quite loosely for some members....


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

I'm pretty sure retail pricing has been posted by Jerry numerous times. ...


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Also, if I have stated anything in my review posts that any member feels is deceitful. ... misleading.... or an outright lie... please feel free to bring to the forums attention right here, right now....
> 
> Let's clear the air gentleman. ... I use that term quite loosely for some members....


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Oh but I think so.... do you mind if someone calls you a liar ?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Why so much secrecy, post the list in the open.


I never said to PM me, just to let me know. Which models do you want pricing for?

For some of you.....cough....cough.....do you want the pricing in US Dollars or do you want me to use the cannabis conversion table????


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Bayboy said:


> Since I'm on neutral ground I think it's easy and quite imperative that I state something that's obvious. People don't know how to concede or at least gracefully, which can be viewed as continuance. Perhaps it is... who knows, who cares.
> 
> Thing is I brought up the point about Npdang because I lurked years ago before getting up the nerve to join. I did so because things were quite technical, but mainly the whole tenure of the site was not about who spent the most money, rather finding viable equipment & optimizing the setup while "beating the system" so to speak (no pun intended). While that may offend some, I still stand by that as it is how this forum began. If you naysay, then go back into the archives where many things said to this day are mere regurgitation of the past.
> 
> ...


and how are you on neutral ground?

you attack me and say stuff that is meant to hurt or demean, and now invoke the Npdang quotient as if it's a higher perch to throw things from, I think you might could try on some shoes yourself.


and I know you're feigning innocent, it's easy enough to see where you had to put in two cents but came out with a dime dropped on "someone" who apparently crossed a line of respect?


I'm not being ugly man. I think a little temperance is what the doctor ordered, as I too take the premise of this place to heart.

When the percentages of posts about 5K component sets and 10K amplifiers dwindles down to where they occupy their fair share of the conversation, and not dominate each discussion where people are looking for awesome, maybe the slight blowback that occurs will dissipate too.

and I'm interested in the Sinfoni product, perhaps as much as a nuthugger or, maybe a wannabe nuthugger?

anyways, you can hate if you want, it's a free country.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

cajunner said:


> wait, just a minute. a skeptic?
> 
> 
> lol..
> ...


W-T-F! 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> W-T-F!
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Bret, that was so 5 pages ago. Where have you been????


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Potato.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> I never said to PM me, just to let me know. Which models do you want pricing for?
> 
> For some of you.....cough....cough.....do you want the pricing in US Dollars or do you want me to use the cannabis conversion table????



I don`t care, someone else was asking. 
I`d stick with my cannabis.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SQ_TSX said:


> Cajunner:
> Why are you asking me about a price ? What in the world does that have to do with anything we've been trying to discuss...
> 
> *It's very clear all you care to do is stir the preverbial pot and keep people in an uproar.
> ...


what?!

how have I called you a liar?

please explain.


as per the bolded, I think you might re-examine my posts more thoroughly as I am always ready to help, and have done so throughout my duration as a member of this forum.


I think you have started swinging wildly, and for no reason.

again, instead of simply insulting me without grounds, put together the parts of my posts that offended you and we can go over it together.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Oh but I think so.... do you mind if someone calls you a liar ?


I think I stopped looking for his undertones in those long rants. In other forums...people are quicker to #@!$ you!!!! vs. the long winded rhetorical/can you figure out if I'm condescending posts 

I try to take it all in stride. I know there's quite a bit of pride around here concerning product selection. I think we all need to be more respectful of that. How many have been on the opposite end of the spectrum? I can't say I've owned $5K worth of amps. But the swing of components and costs I have utilized haven't led me to believe that one end is absolutely better than the other.

I think we lose that perspective after a while.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

cajunner said:


> and how are you on neutral ground?
> 
> you attack me and say stuff that is meant to hurt or demean, and now invoke the Npdang quotient as if it's a higher perch to throw things from, I think you might could try on some shoes yourself.
> 
> ...


Look here fella! I'm not one of these other dudes on here with all of that bs, so euthanize that! I haven't said one thing to you nor replied since the last time you came slick out of your mouth with me and that's been months, so get your story straight fella. Last time with you, period!


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

cajunner said:


> and how are you on neutral ground?
> 
> you attack me and say stuff that is meant to hurt or demean, and now invoke the Npdang quotient as if it's a higher perch to throw things from, I think you might could try on some shoes yourself.
> 
> ...


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> W-T-F!
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


poetic license?

are you aware that even now, there are bugs microscopic in size are traversing the skin on your body?

I mean, we all have them. It's not a secret, but just saying it, I don't know man...


could be construed.


You know how to construe, I would ask you to construe now since there are people feeling unfriendly towards some honest inquiry into the Sinfoni brand.


and I believe that you stand for freedom, you stand for reason, you stand for...

ah, heck.


it's just Friday night. I'll be out for a few hours, the gf's here and giving me dirty looks.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)




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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I think it's pretty clear:
Sinfoni is currently the brand of interest lately. 

We all (should) know there is always a new flavor of the month with these "boutique" brands. Hybrid, Mosconi, Illusion, AP, etc are examples. Just because they are the new thing doesn't inherently mean the product is no good or conversely the best thing ever. It's just another option in the grand scheme of things. 

The brands that put out a solid product will be viable options to those with the means, regardless of what "means" that is. Value is always relative. But luckily crap product is weeded out fairly quickly, even if there is an initial rejoice. Sinfoni has been around for a long time. Maybe their speakers will continue to be regarded as good product a year from now when another new flavor is rolled out.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

How come you haven`t tested any Erin?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> How come you haven`t tested any Erin?



Life, man. 

That and I don't think anyone has asked me about it. I've not gone out of my way to ask for speakers to test in a long while. Just too busy to burden myself with that responsibility.

Edit: And if I'm being honest, most of the speakers I've tested the last year have been because I've been personally interested in them. There's not much out there that has piqued my interest in a while other than what you see on my site. Testing is a PITA and for me to go through the hassle of doing it, It might as well be something I have some interest in seeing results for.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> How come you haven`t tested any Erin?


maybe someone should send them to him


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ill just leave these here. which ones would you want? and yes, i know specs and graphs dont equate to everything, but lets get real for a second.





or..


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> Am I allowed to voice my opinion and chime in or would it not matter because I am a Sinfoni dealer?
> 
> I heard this one the other day: Opinions are like orgasms, only mine matters and I don't care if you have one.


Please feel free Jerry.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

We don't want to talk objectively around here Skizer. Those graphs aren't my ears anyways!!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Please feel free Jerry.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Well, thank you Sir!!!!!

I am of course COMPLETELY biased, because I am a Sinfoni dealer. So, to most people, every bit of the next part of this post is nothing more than an attempt to pry money from your cold, dead fingers. 

1) I have given the exact same discount on Sinfoni products to forum members as I have any other brand I sell. I have never "pimped them out" to get posts/threads and I don't know of any other Sinfoni dealers severely discounting either.

2) It's been asked, how many are posting in support that don't own Sinfoni?? I think the bigger question is, how many are bashing a product they have never once heard???? You see, most people I know that have heard them, have bought them, so..........

3) I have always liked their amps from the first time I heard them. However, the speakers floored me. Why? Because to be honest, I wasn't expecting it. They are REALLY very good. I couldn't care less what a graph or T/S parameters show....you see, when I am enjoying the speakers, these 2 things are the least of my worries. But feel free to mount those pretty graphs on your dash and try to stare at them when you drive, to each his own!

Are these speakers magical.....hell no. Will they make you orgasm, hell no. Will you have a smile on your face when listening to them....hell yes!


----------



## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)




----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> Bret, that was so 5 pages ago. Where have you been????


Working way to hard for a Friday so I am late to this party.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

Erin/Cajunner I would be happy to send you my personal set of Maestoso to test and audition for the masses or just for yourself. Erin maybe you could have Cajunner (long F'n drive) over or at least forward them on to him for audition after your through with them. I truely want you guys to have an opinion of these components all of your own with no influence other than what YOU put into it. In car or in "play room" put them up against your best for comparison. I have a build coming up very soon but would be happy to give you and or Cajunner the opportunity to take these off of your not worthy of the $ list just because a few folks are very happy with them. 

So what if a few guys are on Sinfoni at the same time.. Really, nuthugging ugly betties? Thats sad guys, let people discover what is best for them without you trying to smash all thoughts of if they should or not because of previous impression, your friends expierience or NPdangs input. These are some of the best speakers I personally have ever heard and I will stick to that claim. Many years of experience and ****loads of brandnames, who cares.. We, (the guys supporting Sinfoni right now) enjoy what we are hearing and are doing so completely out of pocket at full retail with no complaints!!

Let me know, ill have these ready to ship by Monday morning!


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> i wonder if sinfoni offers a model with a response ****ed up enough to cater to my car. :laugh:


Breaking News: Sinfoni custom doped voice coils for your car! Hahhahaha


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> so please, allow me the honor of wearing egg on my face and tell me that the recent rash of people sporting Sinfoni in their rides, are NOT, and have not been compensated for the near-constant flood of superlatives?
> 
> I'm always a skeptic and maybe that rubs people the wrong way, I see things that form relationships and usually there's a money incentive somewhere, I believe we've already had an admission where the distributor is sending sets of speakers to shops to audition, on his dime...


Many people buy high end for the attention/exclusivity/status moreso than strictly for the performance. 

This is just the nature of anything high end. Cars, watches, speakers, welders, tools, you name it. I've even witnessed this behavior with amateur pool players getting caught up in $5k+ pre-ban ivory pool cues that have to get sent off for "maintenance" every 6 months and they don't play while their cues are sent off because they "just can't play with the house cues". 

Owning something high end gives people the chance to brag, and it is usually not a coincidence that the personality type which seeks attention is usually associated with buying high end products. This contributes to why you see more "look at me and what I just bought" posts about the high end equipment as opposed to consumer-level or "pedestrian" level gear.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

cajunner said:


> now if you had come up with a price, if you had defended the claim of Sinfoni being worth the money by saying you paid retail for your sets of speakers, or maybe even just a decent deal like, 200 bucks off the top for the stack of amps or the pair of Grandioso driver components, just to show me up...
> 
> that would have been GREAT!
> 
> ...


Heres how it went down for me...i had some PHASS mids and tweets in my car and they sounded great, but i also (before i bought the PHASS ) opted into the group buy tweeter thing here. So i was thinking...whats the next thing for me...should i sell the PHASS set and look for a mid to match the new tweeter, or just sell the group buy tweeter.

PHASS sounded great but to be honest there is always the grass nights be greener rolling around in my head so i shot Jerry a PM and said i am thinking of upgrading and did he feel the dyne 160 would be an upgrade or would i have to go up to the top level Dyne to get a bump up from the PHASS. He said to really hear a difference i would be looking at the top tier Dyne, or maybe Sinfoni.


Thats was the be all end all of his sales pitch...a week or so went by and i was like there is no way i am going to upgrade to the top level Dyne..i didn't want to spend that much money. And then i went back and reread his PM and that was the first time i caught the word sinfoni, so i went around and did some research and everyone who had heard them sounded very pleased.

So since i knew what the retail was i shot him a pm asking if he had them in stock and how much it would cost. He shot me a price that was a small discount off retail, and said they would shop from the US distributor. Again...nothing more or less than that...never tried to sell me on any magic beans. IN fact never tried to sell me anything. Just gave me a price and answered my question about where they would come from.

A few days or a week went by and i had a little extra money laying around so i shot him a paypal check for his asking price and 2 days later the box was in my hand.


That was the end of it...he never asked me to say a word on the forum and life went on.

Enjoy the egg on your face....and try and be a little nicer around the forums...life is too short to always be the seagull. Try being the quiet guy on the bench who tosses the bread...its a much better view.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

well alrighty then!

vis-a-vee, nuthugging ugly betties.

NOT an insult, haha...

think about it, the character Ugly Betty, she is the glue that holds it together and makes everything run on time.

the heartbeat of the show, and for you guys, the heartbeat of the forum. If I call someone a nuthugging ugly betty, that loosely translated is a supporter of products, that's ALL.

ah, maybe a leetle too Sheldon Cooper for the day crowd, I guess...


anyways, now that we've established that Jerry gives minimal discounting on Sinfoni and others are rocking the full boat on their gear, I will gladly drop the inference that the sudden and anomalous, spurious rise in interest on the Sinfoni brand, was charged with forum inundation using compensatory practices, and is simply exercising of the happy customer dynamic, spreading the good news.

I am glad that is cleared up, but now we have another white elephant to slay since it's taking up a lot of room in the forum:


the actual retail pricing for the supposed "best in class" just skyrocketed from the hundreds for drivers, to the thousands.

that kind of offset, that kind of forum creep would have been slammed for an unjust pricing scheme. 

Critical Mass did it and they got hit hard by this forum's elite, even if their products were landing mid to upper tier as a whole, the projection that you'd have to buy their goods based on retail price to have 'the best' meant something, and here the Sinfoni nuthugger swallows the full load of retail on those premo drivers, and barely even chokes?

Isn't there some kind of parallel here, isn't everyone aware of the UL12 by Critical Mass and by all accounts from those who've heard it, it's a pretty good woofer?

So maybe Sinfoni delivers substance beyond the Critical Mass envelope, but the nuthugger intercession between what used to retail upper class, to the new paradigm is what everyone is mostly balking at, because these drivers are hardly able to make the rounds based on affordability alone, much less acquired outside of brick and mortar. The retail pricing may prohibit grey market sales on stock purchases alone, unless the dealers are raking up 300% markets like jewelry gets.

And in a way, that's part of why I supposed the people who love Sinfoni were getting the product well below retail as a supportive measure, and when I see Emilios (I believe?) offering to send shops in the south some product for audition purposes, without needing to buy 20K of goods.... (heck, that's not but a half dozen amps and a middle offering speaker component, haha) as part of a retail/distro partnership, I have to think that trickle down is happening all the way to the blessed souls giving up their hard-fought respect in the forum to hawk goods. But if not, then good on you and I wear the egg well.

after all, I really don't have a large hubris and get by with a small ego, but in here I ginny it up for the cut through. Think of some of my posts as the guitarist's solo. It's got to have an edge to cut through the bass lines and compete with the singer...


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> Enjoy the egg on your face....and try and be a little nicer around the forums...life is too short to always be the seagull. Try being the quiet guy on the bench who tosses the bread...its a much better view.


I think you've got a pretty good grasp of what's real and what's for show, so I accept this critique with the supposed above-board intentions.

sometimes I think I have to push, and it's not anyone's fault that their post happens along and catches my attention.

some of the fun, or return on time investment in this place, is the ability to make people laugh or lighten their load just a bit, and I really relish that role as idiot savant, and allow my long-suffering political view to be exposed to the point where some are offended by that, or at least by my airing grievances.


does this mean I don't have a place for a little soapbox theorizing, does this mean that I should quit my pastime pursuits as mediator, instigator or elevator of the convo?

I don't know. I just want to be liked, I have a need for approval by complete strangers that compels me to intercede...


and that's the truth.

that's what I like to give, some spot-on, easy to handle salve and serum of the fix-it crowd's various maladies, as best as I know how...


I don't think that's a bad view, overall.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Do you ever shut up?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

DDfusion said:


> Do you ever shut up?


didn't you just witness a span of several hours, while multiple comments were directed at me using quote boxes and direct questioning?

is your need for attention so vast that it supersedes good judgement for juvenile antics, getting in a shot at someone for kicks?

it's an ugly truth, your comment/question towards me exposes you, and says all anyone needs to know about you, while I remain the same.

happy to help, hope you get it.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Cajunner:
After waking up this moring and reading your most recent comments... I honestly feel sorry for you... your comments reflect an irrational person who is at least partially devoid of reality....

I'm really quite shocked and concerned for you.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SQ_TSX:

thanks for your input, I too, feel sorry for you that you cannot understand some of the back and forth and it comes across as irrational. 

I do enjoy the more rare points of view, so you might be on to something but if my posts have caused you to abandon your present waving of Sinfoni flags because it's better to spend time with your family, please don't try to rationalize my posts as misguided and nonsensical, because they were not.

You have every right to post favorable reviews for equipment you own and if you blow smoke for ten pages or just the one, what exactly is your purpose? My posts inquiring about the manner in which so many suddenly are now in the Sinfoni camp, is not that subtle or meaningless, and I suspect, sensibly thought out.

Your posts are in concert with others, and although it may have warranted further investigation, I have seen all I need to understand the answers to my questioning.


feel free to return to this thread for your purposes, whatever they are as to insinuate that I've made you turn away from it because of my thoughts, is insupportable and mischievous.

I will now see you in the light in which you tried to make me look like a bad poster and ill-willed towards others, which I can assure anyone and everyone, is not my purpose.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Damn....yall don't be so hard on ol caj.....he just likes to poke the nest, and inspire intelligent debate. Don't be so easily offended by his overly witty banter, as it doesent seem to belittle by intention, rather taken as offensive as if it wasn't his style all the time. We know his style, and insulting isn't usually part of it.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

claydo said:


> Damn....yall don't be so hard on ol caj.....he just likes to poke the nest, and inspire intelligent debate. Don't be so easily offended by his overly witty banter, as it doesent seem to belittle by intention, rather taken as offensive as if it wasn't his style all the time. We know his style, and insulting isn't usually part of it.


But to what end? And for what reason? I dont ever see intelligent debate coming from it, all i see is him crapping on people and product.

The debate would be how does the maestroso sound in comparison to the Dyne, or how much better should the Grandioso sound in comparison to the maestroso at 3 or 4 times the cost.

Not "i think Jerry is giving away product in exchange for fake reviews to line his pockets by selling white van speakers".

He did the same thing for over a year with Marks Group Buy Tweeter threads...its exhausting imo.


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## BumpinJetta (May 17, 2013)

So.....I just read through 7 pages of rambling. Talk about way off topic now.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Back on track.

If you could listen to the top 4-5 cars at finals you would discover two things. First, you'd understand what 'sounds good to my ears', should really sound like and secondly, you'd be struck at how strikingly similar the sound is in each car. 

That tells me three things. First, that sound quality isn't some nebulous, personalized entity. There is a particular sound that qualifies as SQ. Next, the equipment and installs in all these cars vary greatly, so equipment and install play less of a role. But wait, the one common feature would be a top notch dsp. So obviously the good sound is a derivative of some process X with the dsp. SQ is not plug and play and a brand/product does not yield the best sound, else everyone would be running it.

For any given setup with decent gear, if you keep everything constant, and just swap speakers from say Phass to Sinfoni or Scan to Dyn etc, the real difference would would be nominal and shades of grey from what you had earlier. 

The extent of perceived differences would of course depend on how much of a jump you were expecting and probably also how much you spent. To claim that just a swap to brand X gave you a huge SQ jump, is factually incorrect and when it's done as a group, it's called fan boy nut hugging. Nothing wrong with that either. But it is what it is.

Don't take my word on any of this. If just adding the Sinfoinis gave you audio nirvana, go pit your car in the lanes at a competition. I would be really surprised if anyone broke 65. As is where is. Those top 4-5 cars, they're in the high 80's to low 90's. So how much of a jump did your Sinfoni's really give you?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Jumped back on before heading to my boys soccer game.... 

Sqnut: you made some good points...!

We will see... I'll be in the MECA lanes next season... hopefully IASCA as well


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> We will see... I'll be in the MECA lanes next season... hopefully IASCA as well


Choice of action that I was waiting for. Are you the first?


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

I'm sorry what ?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

deeppinkdiver said:


> Erin/Cajunner I would be happy to send you my personal set of Maestoso to test and audition for the masses or just for yourself. Erin maybe you could have Cajunner (long F'n drive) over or at least forward them on to him for audition after your through with them. I truely want you guys to have an opinion of these components all of your own with no influence other than what YOU put into it. In car or in "play room" put them up against your best for comparison. I have a build coming up very soon but would be happy to give you and or Cajunner the opportunity to take these off of your not worthy of the $ list just because a few folks are very happy with them.
> 
> So what if a few guys are on Sinfoni at the same time.. Really, nuthugging ugly betties? Thats sad guys, let people discover what is best for them without you trying to smash all thoughts of if they should or not because of previous impression, your friends expierience or NPdangs input. These are some of the best speakers I personally have ever heard and I will stick to that claim. Many years of experience and ****loads of brandnames, who cares.. We, (the guys supporting Sinfoni right now) enjoy what we are hearing and are doing so completely out of pocket at full retail with no complaints!!
> 
> Let me know, ill have these ready to ship by Monday morning!


 Now that is generous offer!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Back on track.
> 
> If you could listen to the top 4-5 cars at finals you would discover two things. First, you'd understand what 'sounds good to my ears', should really sound like and secondly, you'd be struck at how strikingly similar the sound is in each car.
> 
> ...


And this has nothing to do with the top 4-5 guys being the best at knowing how to tune their cars for competition, little lone the car (in most of the cases of the top 4-5 guys) being purpose built for competitions, NOT daily drivers???

I am a little tired of the attitude that if someone thinks their car sounds really good, they are "required" to throw it into competition to prove it! 

Prove that based on the competition format and rules, according to the judge, their car sounds good? Let just say it scores well in Dynamics, Tonal Accuracy, but (because of tuning or factory locations) it doesn't have the proper width and depth, THAT would mean the speakers aren't as good as advertised??? Do you know how ridiculous this sounds???


----------



## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

So, before I go and get excited about trying out the Sinfoni Maestoso's, does anyone know if they would fit the front doors/pillars of a 2012 Acura TL?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

CDT FAN said:


> So, before I go and get excited about trying out the Sinfoni Maestoso's, does anyone know if they would fit the front doors/pillars of a 2012 Acura TL?


Use a trim ring and you may need to trim the door metal to open up the hole just a hair, due to the shape of the Honda speaker openings. Pretty easy install.


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> I'm sorry what ?


I think you need to forget the several pages of hostility, and read my post again. 

It will be good to see the speakers on the playing field. Are you the first one to compete with a sinfoni setup?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> And this has nothing to do with the top 4-5 guys being the best at knowing how to tune their cars for competition, little lone the car (in most of the cases of the top 4-5 guys) being purpose built for competitions, NOT daily drivers???


In case you missed it, that's exactly what I'm saying, that equipment plays a much smaller role than the average person likes to believe. Swapping speakers should at best give you a nominal change, it's not going to be a day and night difference that's being claimed.



Niebur3 said:


> I am a little tired of the attitude that if someone thinks their car sounds really good, they are "required" to throw it into competition to prove it!


You don't hear any of the Dyn or Scan etc owners say that their brand is the definitive when it comes sound quality, these comments are all from the Sinfoni owners, so test it.



Niebur3 said:


> Prove that based on the competition format and rules, according to the judge, their car sounds good? Let just say it scores well in Dynamics, Tonal Accuracy, but (because of tuning or factory locations) it doesn't have the proper width and depth, THAT would mean the speakers aren't as good as advertised??? Do you know how ridiculous this sounds???


All I'm asking them to do is break 65 as is where is. Stage width and depth is only 12 points. If they do good on the other criteria, they should break 65 without breaking a sweat.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Interesting that Sinfoni became the forum boner again after 15yrs.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Kazuhiro said:


> I think you need to forget the several pages of hostility, and read my post again.
> 
> It will be good to see the speakers on the playing field. Are you the first one to compete with a sinfoni setup?


I just didn't understand your post...
I'll be the first in my area... but no there is an Audi using Sinfoni amplifiers tgat has done very well this season.

I might be the only one right now with a complete all Sinfoni system.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

sqnut said:


> In case you missed it, that's exactly what I'm saying, that equipment plays a much smaller role than the average person likes to believe. Swapping speakers should at best give you a nominal change, it's not going to be a day and night difference that's being claimed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm pretty confident I can break 65....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> I'm pretty confident I can break 65....


Good for you, and I mean that. Here's another thought. Let's say your Sinfoni setup scores 73. Now keeping everything else constant just swap out the Sinfoni speakers for whatever you were running earlier and attend another competition. How much do you think you would score? What you got more or less a similar score, what then? How much of a jump would the Sinfoni's have really given you in that case? See what I mean?


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> But to what end? And for what reason? I dont ever see intelligent debate coming from it, all i see is him crapping on people and product.
> 
> Not "i think Jerry is giving away product in exchange for fake reviews to line his pockets by selling white van speakers".
> 
> He did the same thing for over a year with Marks Group Buy Tweeter threads...its exhausting imo.


I see him questioning design/engineering and peoples opinion, usually intelligently, but challenged opinions lead to emotional responses......hence the offense taken sometimes. I feel that while he enjoys being snarky in an inderect fashion, he is rarely insulting. I like the fact that he challenges folks to think through his posts to gather the clever wordplay, and typically challenges common ideas to provoke debate. I cannot speak to the group buy, as I didn't follow that thread, and I'm not taking up for the guy either, he does quite well on his own, I just thought some responses in this thread were a little mean spirited and unwarranted.



sqnut said:


> If you could listen to the top 4-5 cars at finals you would discover two things. First, you'd understand what 'sounds good to my ears', should really sound like and secondly, you'd be struck at how strikingly similar the sound is in each car.
> 
> That tells me three things. First, that sound quality isn't some nebulous, personalized entity. There is a particular sound that qualifies as SQ.


My finals experience last year was a little different. While the technical aspect of the sound of the "top" cars were remarkably simular, the tonality and involvement from demo to demo changed pretty dramatically. Evidently it ranks pretty high to have a complete isolation from the sound, something I'm not particularly fond of, but is usually represented by most of the high ranking cars. Kirks acura is a glaring exception to that, so I really enjoy that car! I like the more physical.......kinda....well, visceral experiences, therefore my car is usually tuned and demo'd that way. Erin seems to be a fan of this sound too, and his demos are always a treat. Most of the winners win specifically by being technically as close to perfect as possible, with point categories seeming to carry more emphasis than any "specialness" to the sound. Of course there are always exceptions, like Jim's rediculously effective rear fill, that created a stage that felt special. I'm typically more drawn to a specific tonality target, and cars that you climb out of saying "WOW". The top scoring cars that tend to sound simular, and while very "technically accurate", are often quite boring.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ_TSX said:


> I'm pretty confident I can break 65....


Yea. 65 in MECA isn't _that_ hard. And a 65 here (in our particular region) may be a 75 elsewhere.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

I like the way things are turning... now this is an open constructive conversation. 

Sqnut:
I see the point you're making and it's valid... !

This hobby, like life, is all about choices... some prefer to choose Scan's ... that's great... they are some of my favorite speakers... the one f#1 set was just spectacular. ... one of the best sounding, most dynamics cars I've heard used scan tweeters and midbasses. ... KP'S Acura TL.... loved it... Matt Roberts truck... another on my list of bests.... 

I guess the point I was trying to make with my review... was that right out of the box... the Grandioso were some of the most pleasing speakers I've encountered ... of course this was in a semi-controlled environment but with no EQ....

Given my personal experience with car audio... I am very impressed with them... and can't wait to get them properly installed so my commute to and from work will be much more enjoyable. ....


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SQ_TSX said:


> and can't wait to get them properly installed so my commute to and from work will be much more enjoyable. ....



Aaaaaaannnnndddd this is all that really matters anyways!


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the basket of the Grandioso is not really modular, and the use of bolt-together parts is actually antithesis of the rigidity most driver manufacturers strive for since ringing in the frame is dampened to one peak frequency if the casting is a good design and good metal is used. When people make billet frames from a single block of aluminum they usually use the good stuff, T6061 or whatever. It's a better piece of metal than what is cast in a production facility that makes speaker frames for an assembly line and retail boxing, and usually used in pre-production prototyping.

When you bolt together a frame, you actually break up the resonant peak of the basket due to the many separate joints where a bolt is putting pressure on a loosely fitted joint.

It may appear that it is stronger than a cast piece but the design (IMHO) is to reduce harmonic ringing and does so at a cost, the penalty being that of a less strong frame.

modular engines weren't developed for extra strength, that seems to me to be a poor analogy and probably shouldn't be considered, again IMHO.

the bolt together frames allow the designer to tune the basket harmonics, this is not new, you can go back and look at other high end speaker companies' output, A/D/S did it with their PX line, Audio Technology did/does it with their Flex/C-Quenze units, Sinfoni is using it as a means to justify extreme pricing, again, IMHO...

but there's a logical reason for it and it's not because it's a stronger design principle. Using a billet manufacture for the parts, then assembling those parts is likely a cheaper process than billet manufacture of the baskets which is time prohibitive. You can set a CNC rig to make the Grandioso bits, but if you wanted a full basket the odds are pretty good that it would be two or three steps extra in machining set-up and completion, at the minimum... which is why I think they are using the bolt-together frame.


Look at people making XBL motors, they will take the magnet changes as a hit, or performance loss before paying to have the slot machined into the top plate as a solid piece.

It's because it's cheaper to true up a blank then cut a step into it, two times to form an XBL top plate, than it is to excavate the gap for XBL in a solid piece of steel.


Anyways, the lines of "sounds good explanation" but not actually not truthy, make marketing claims less believable. I imagine if we were to extend this criticism to other various claims that Sinfoni purports to have in their build strategy, we could rule out more of the "tastes great/less filling" parts of the marketing team's output, and possibly allow for less of a handhold for the nuthuggers to maintain grip...

haha..


what does that all mean, though?


like Patrick does, "too long, didn't read"

TLDR:

Sinfoni is guilty of using questionable claims to promote their highest quality speaker set. It gets even more questionable when people try to parrot the brochures using their own analogies to explain the superiority of the speakers.


so, as for reducing graphs and impulse response measurements to a secondary level, in favor of subjective opinions and real world, case study/ownership?

where have we seen this before, and what was it about Klippel that triggered "cease and desist" orders...

:laughing:


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> Use a trim ring and you may need to trim the door metal to open up the hole just a hair, due to the shape of the Honda speaker openings. Pretty easy install.


I am trying to find out if there will be enough depth behind the speaker to clear the glass, but I don't see the physical specs for the speakers anywhere.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cast alu frame is freaking sturdy, don`t trust me, look at modern motorcycles frames and swingarms. much more critical applications then freaking speakers.
Only reason I could see Sinfoni make 20 piece baskets is to make it look expensive and has nothing to do with sound quality of the speaker.
I can bet you my both nuts that cast aluminum basket machined to make it looks good after removed from the cast will sound and measured absofuckinglutely the same. 
and cost 1/5 to make. 
If cast alu good for vehicle frames and wheels it will be just fine for speakers.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> cast alu frame is freaking sturdy, don`t trust me, look at modern motorcycles frames and swingarms. much more critical applications then freaking speakers.
> Only reason I could see Sinfoni make 20 piece baskets is to make it look expensive and has nothing to do with sound quality of the speaker.
> I can bet you my both nuts that cast aluminum basket machined to make it looks good after removed from the cast will sound and measured absofuckinglutely the same.
> and cost 1/5 to make.
> If cast alu good for vehicle frames and wheels it will be just fine for speakers.


I guess we'll have to disagree on this, Victor.

My understanding on how to build a basket for sound quality, might differ than how to build a basket for lower cost.

A single cast piece will be less strong overall than machined billet, since the billet blank is more controlled in process, it's homogeneity of the crystalline structures and the density of the material, the strength of it, is not the result that comes from casting processes using small mold designs with intricate windows and stuff.

Does it matter in a production speaker? Maybe not, but not so fast.


As the basket is capable of ringing, say perhaps, in the 400 hz to 770 hz region for a normal 6.5" cast frame, this will reflect back into the speaker's output and add or subtract from the cone's various distortions, and sometimes can make a speaker have converging resonant modes that look a lot like peaks in the FR...

and a billet speaker won't have that same typical ringing since it's resonant frequency will be much higher due to the denser, tougher build material.


This may seem like a moot point since the cone contributes the lion's share of the output, but from the studies I have made on the subject I have to believe the speaker designers optimize every single thing they can on a no-holds-barred design.


And that's okay. The Grandioso is built from billet parts, probably. It's just put together in a way that reduces the large signal resonant harmonics from interfering with the speaker cone's contributions, because each piece of aluminum is ringing with a much lower intensity, and the threaded bolt compressing the pieces together can be tuned in the movement of the pieces due to the low tolerance of the thread/bolt-through construction.

So, did I say we needed it to be stronger than cast? No. Did I say there was a financial consideration to make it into a machined, but put together frame, I think so... and there's solid research into basket/frame design, that agrees with the way Sinfoni does it, for sound quality purposes.

I'm not really knocking the build when I say "bolt-together frames and hand-painted cones" because there's good engineering and sound decisions made that influence the total output and/or design goals.

and I don't mean this to be a primer on speaker building, but there are some inconsistencies and some outright erroneous thinking in this thread on the part of some zealous sorts whose intentions are made clear, hell or high water...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Caj, stop speculating and actually do something. Your theories it`s just that theories.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Caj, stop speculating and actually do something. Your theories it`s just that theories.


it's actually mostly regurgitation, Vic.

Your balls are in jeopardy because the frame harmonics is a design feature for speakers that play into the midrange, if top of the line means anything.

I've read quite a bit about designing speakers and I have been employed doing machinist work, I have had to run tungsten carbide bits through welded stainless steel and brass and spring steel and all sorts of alloys right back to good ol' cast iron...

you don't have to call me out for speculation, just because I know how things are done doesn't mean I have to do them, right?


You know about how good Vodka is made but are you making it? Probably just buy it, from some people that know how to make it, that's how I do it too.



If pressed I believe I could design a successful speaker, but that and a cup of coffee still means someone's paying 5 bucks at Starbucks...

you on the other hand, deserve a warm round of applause for bringing the tube amps to the mobile market.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> cast alu frame is freaking sturdy, don`t trust me, look at modern motorcycles frames and swingarms. much more critical applications then freaking speakers.
> Only reason I could see Sinfoni make 20 piece baskets is to make it look expensive and has nothing to do with sound quality of the speaker.
> I can bet you my both nuts that cast aluminum basket machined to make it looks good after removed from the cast will sound and measured absofuckinglutely the same.
> and cost 1/5 to make.
> If cast alu good for vehicle frames and wheels it will be just fine for speakers.



the pressure casting on a good set of pots and pans, the Scan Pan, shows through heat traveling through the medium, how much more uniform the aluminum is under pressure?

it's closer to forged, which is what billet is. I'm sure you know this, already but just for funsies.


https://traxxas.com/forums/showthre...m-Terminology-Billet-Cast-Milled-amp-Machined


I believe there are speaker frames made under high pressure during the casting and then there's the lowest cost aluminum castings, and there's quite a difference going on there.


anyways, that's just to put into perspective a cost/effectiveness ratio, Sinfoni used to build their top tier product.

Skaaning, or Audio Technology is more of the pioneer of the technology I'd think, but Sinfoni is using those production processes to it's advantage.


I don't believe they are flying off the shelves due to retail cost structures and as a flagship it doesn't really matter if it's net result is putting people into systems using Appassionato or Eroico after lusting over that demo Grandioso.

And that is nothing new, heck. Obviously, I'd like to hear the Grandioso but it's not that important that I win at the game of sound quality or even at the internets, it's just that I participate. Some may not like how I play but that's okay. I don't like how some play either, lol...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I haven`t worked CNC machine, true that, but I don`t have to do something to know how it works. cast frames emerged to be stiffer that stamped steel baskets and lower back wave reflections s by reducing cross section of basket. I`d love for you to disassemble any speaker and measure resonant frequency of that basket, I bet it will be very low, insignificant for music reproduction.
Point being Sinfoni made it for a sole reason of looking good but at expense of consumer.
I guess when you have to change something from lower tier product that would be a good reason, regardless of sonic benefits.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

etroze said:


> I meant more to play devils advocate there and wonder if other companies do smooth their graphs out and Sinfoni is being transparent with measurements.


Ding ding ding

I don't trust published specs whatsoever. 

I generally use Peerless, Vifa, SB Acoustics, Celestion, B&C and Dayton. 

All of them exaggerate to some extent, but at least you're not $200 poorer if their product didn't measure up.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Point being Sinfoni made it for a sole reason of looking good but at expense of consumer.


:thumbsup:

If Sinfoni really thought billet baskets made a difference, they would have designed one for their subwoofers which instead use the industry standard Chinese cast aluminum 12 spoke which cost them about 10 dollars a piece in quantity. :laugh:


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> And this has nothing to do with the top 4-5 guys being the best at knowing how to tune their cars for competition, little lone the car (in most of the cases of the top 4-5 guys) being purpose built for competitions, NOT daily drivers???
> 
> I am a little tired of the attitude that if someone thinks their car sounds really good, they are "required" to throw it into competition to prove it!
> 
> Prove that based on the competition format and rules, according to the judge, their car sounds good? Let just say it scores well in Dynamics, Tonal Accuracy, but (because of tuning or factory locations) it doesn't have the proper width and depth, THAT would mean the speakers aren't as good as advertised??? Do you know how ridiculous this sounds???


Then post the score sheet.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> custom engineering speaker for certain car in mind is engineering nightmare- I bet nobody will ever do that. not to mention limited market .



I would think if you were an OEM supplier for a high volume car model, it would make sense. But even then the speakers in most of a particular car model likely aren't going to be the high end option so the volumes would still be pretty low.

The Revel option in Buick had lots of changes based on the car, but IIRC they were mostly changes to the car such as speaker locations, changes in grills and things like that.

Cheaper and easier to add a DSP to the head unit or amp. The DSP firmware is easier if you don't have to autotune or be user adjustable, just program the particular car model settings in.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

hurrication said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> If Sinfoni really thought billet baskets made a difference, they would have designed one for their subwoofers which instead use the industry standard Chinese cast aluminum 12 spoke which cost them about 10 dollars a piece in quantity. :laugh:


Why bother with a billet modular basket on a driver that only plays from say 80hz and below.....?

The midbass/midranges are the most important playing the majority of the music.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Because the 2nd harmonic of 80hz is 160hz and the third harmonic is 240hz.

Basically you want a low distortion sub because the harmonic distortion of a subwoofer will introduce imaging cues that are in the midbass and even the midrange, and it will muddy up the midbass and midrange.

It's the reason that the home audiophile types are scared to buy subs, subwoofers can really wreak havoc with your mains if you don't do it right.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

Sorry didn't mean to imply that subwoofer distortion was not important. The frame they use is tried and proven. I agree that it would be great to have a grandioso level sub, but I use those subs and am very happy with them. They disappear in car and integrate seamlessly which is alway a plus....


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

What is that frequency altering substance that is hand painted on them? Can I purchase it in parametric/form? I need a gallon for 500, 800, 1000, 2000, ...


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2015)

LOL. ... yes you can... they come in many designer colors in 5 gallon buckets.... I'm going ti treat the various areas of my car to steer the frequencies to the center of the dash...




JK......


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

the 12 spoke basket is a proven performer, it has so many arms and so much aluminum in the right places that it can be cast cheaply without the pressure loading and still ring into the higher octaves that won't be excited by 3rd harmonics, and probably not 5th harmonic of an 80 hz fundamental note.

I agree that in subwoofer cast baskets, if it's aluminum it's probably okay, especially the known quantity of 4 spoke, that I believe was first seen in SoundStream velvet hammers, and Audiomobile?

Then everyone was using them, because they were solid enough I think.

I remember someone cracking the frame of a Lanzar DC Pro 15" once, he said it was just from music. I believe the Lanzar were using their own version of the 4 spoke, if not the exact same as everyone else.

I thought that odd.

I guess it is time to "look at Sinfoni" in that we should see basket/motor structures of the lower lines, like the Appassionato and the Eroica, and especially the line below the Grandioso, and Maesteoso, oh, to see what there is so special about non-bolted together frames, haha...

let's look at the whole dang company, right? Amps, check. Speakers, check. What else are they coming to market with, what else are we to be bombarded by the Sinfoni reign?


looking forward to it.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> I haven`t worked CNC machine, true that, but I don`t have to do something to know how it works. cast frames emerged to be stiffer that stamped steel baskets and lower back wave reflections s by reducing cross section of basket. I`d love for you to disassemble any speaker and measure resonant frequency of that basket, I bet it will be very low, insignificant for music reproduction.
> Point being Sinfoni made it for a sole reason of looking good but at expense of consumer.
> I guess when you have to change something from lower tier product that would be a good reason, regardless of sonic benefits.


Aluminum is also not going to mis-align the magnetic field of the motor when you bolt it to the top plate.

a steel frame, the magnetic flux is being redirected into the frame and likely away from the concentration at the gap, or at least there is involvement that isn't part of the motor design, I don't see where having the basket charged with magnetic energy is helpful to the motor.

but you make a good point, the real reason anyone would go through the trouble of putting together a frame in the manner that Sinfoni does it, is because they can make money doing it.

If say, Boss or Lanzar did it and built a duplicate of the Grandioso then priced it for 1/4 of the retail, would anyone have a problem with their design, haha...

I'd still probably not buy it since it wouldn't be a Sinfoni. There's the rub.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

V 2the C said:


> What is that frequency altering substance that is hand painted on them? Can I purchase it in parametric/form? I need a gallon for 500, 800, 1000, 2000, ...


That **** is funny!:laugh::laugh:


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> That **** is funny!:laugh::laugh:


The speaker cone is so "fast" you gotta dope up the cone or else!




> The high-excursion rubber paired with a same excursion properties spider gives the speaker an elevated bass extension and *a fast and hefty frequency response.*


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cajunner said:


> the 12 spoke basket is a proven performer, it has so many arms and so much aluminum in the right places that it can be cast cheaply without the pressure loading and still ring into the higher octaves that won't be excited by 3rd harmonics, and probably not 5th harmonic of an 80 hz fundamental note.
> 
> I agree that in subwoofer cast baskets, if it's aluminum it's probably okay, especially the known quantity of 4 spoke, that I believe was first seen in SoundStream velvet hammers, and Audiomobile?
> 
> ...


 Man, you pulling crap out of the thin air.how about you borrow a set of tuning forks and fing me resonant frequency of that basket? o any basket for that matter. 
don`t bother i will be in Infrasound range, one we absolutely don`t care about.


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## rxonmymind (Sep 7, 2010)

V 2the C said:


> What is that frequency altering substance that is hand painted on them? Can I purchase it in parametric/form? I need a gallon for 500, 800, 1000, 2000, ...





SQ_TSX said:


> LOL. ... yes you can... they come in many designer colors in 5 gallon buckets.... I'm going ti treat the various areas of my car to steer the frequencies to the center of the dash...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was funny. It's called LSD Do not lick the speakers.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

rxonmymind said:


> That was funny. It's called LSD Do not lick the speakers.


Yeah but lsd really is magic. It can make your car stereo sound so good that you don't even notice it's turned off ! (Actual experience about 25 years ago)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

drop1 said:


> Yeah but lsd really is magic. It can make your car stereo sound so good that you don't even notice it's turned off ! (Actual experience about 25 years ago)


I wish I could find the dude who hooked me up in 1992. Basically changed my life. Saw the whole world in a new light. Everyone should do it. 

It improved my understanding of life, work, art, music and myself.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I wish I could find the dude who hooked me up in 1992. Basically changed my life. Saw the whole world in a new light. Everyone should do it.
> 
> It improved my understanding of life, work, art, music and myself.


I did it one when I was 16 , I was working at McDonald's . A kid offed me some and I said that's not LSD that's a piece of paper. I ate it and three hours later BAM ! I had to ride my motorcycle home!!! I totally recommend it once to everyone , it open my eyes to a whole diffrent way of thinking . And I don't use any drugs . Never have beside that one time , and ohh my .... Even a TV speaker can sound like a perfect soundstage on it .


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

This thread has gone all over the place....it's been entertaining though.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I wish I could find the dude who hooked me up in 1992. Basically changed my life. Saw the whole world in a new light. Everyone should do it.
> 
> It improved my understanding of life, work, art, music and myself.


Yeah it tends to do that. I couldn't agree more.
Mdma does the same. It opens you up and helps you connect with people. Now THAT I'd a music enhancer... can I be 20 again? The world was still so mystical and magical


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## darkgable79 (May 11, 2015)

I just read through 9 pages hoping I would learn something of substance about Sinfoni. And yet I have learned nothing. I was one of the guys down south (Houston) that was interested in hearing the speakers. I have a Harman Kardon factory set up in my vehicle that I'm not happy with. So I joined this forum looking for suggestions. Surprisingly for such a large city Houston doesn't have a ton of high end audio shops. I heard the Focals, Hertz, JL & attempted to hear the Illusion carbons (unsuccessful). So when I came across a few Sinfoni threads & read how impressed some members were I wanted to hear them. I got in touch with Emilios & sent a set down here. I'm not an audiophile expert like a lot of you guys on here seem to be, but when I heard these speakers they sounded better than anything I'd heard prior & these were the Maestoso set. Another forum member went to hear them after I did & he pm'd me. Come to find out the shop had the speakers hooked up incorrectly. So with the speakers being hooked up incorrectly & this wasn't even their top of the line set it impressed me even more. Emilios didn't offer me a discount at all & neither did the shop that he sent them to. Price is always a factor in a purchase, but if the consumer feels that they're getting x value for y price then that's all that matters. So when the time comes I'll be purchasing a set of the Sinfoni's to replace my HK system. All I can say is if you hadn't heard the speakers for yourself do so. If your ears enjoy what they're hearing then the price should be considered. That's just my .02 cents from a noob.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2015)

That .02 cents sir.... worth a million dollars. ....!

Well said.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm still trying to talk the wife into letting me skate out on our Disney trip.
They will have to be absolutely breath taking for me to spend another dime on this build.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> cast alu frame is freaking sturdy, don`t trust me, look at modern motorcycles frames and swingarms. much more critical applications then freaking speakers.
> Only reason I could see Sinfoni make 20 piece baskets is to make it look expensive and has nothing to do with sound quality of the speaker.
> I can bet you my both nuts that cast aluminum basket machined to make it looks good after removed from the cast will sound and measured absofuckinglutely the same.
> and cost 1/5 to make.
> If cast alu good for vehicle frames and wheels it will be just fine for speakers.



The big difference between CNC baskets and cast baskets is the upfront cost to make them. A casting for a 6" aluminum basket can be anywhere between about $5k and $20k, depending on the complexity of the tool. If the tool is a simple clamshell and the finish quality doesn't matter, then you're at the lower end. If the finish quality DOES matter and if there are additional holes in the basket that require the tool to include "sliders", then the cost of the tool goes up exponentially. 

The CNC process requires no up front tooling cost, but the cost to make each part is MUCH higher. 

In terms of precision and repeatability, the casting wins, so long as the tool has been cut precisely and the clean up process is done with some care. That's a manual process using files and jigs. 

The basket contributes VERY little to sound quality. All of this ringing and smooth airflow stuff is borderline BS. Obviously, it's possible to make a terrible basket design that is nasty, but that nastiness usually manifests in mechanical noise where air under the spider is forced through small holes--vents under the spider should be large enough not to restrict airflow. The shape of the legs, the number of legs--none of that contributes to the sound of the speaker. 

A custom basket, compared to choosing an off the shelf basket gives the speaker designer the flexibility to minimize depth, provide a size that fits cars, etc. One example of this is the substantial benefit of using a flat spider rather than a cupped spider. A cupped spider is a simple way to provide more room for excursion under the spider. Another way to do that with an off the shelf basket is to use a plastic ring as a spacer between the basket and the spider. This is really common in subwoofers. A custom basket can be designed to not need either of these measures.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

cajunner said:


> I guess we'll have to disagree on this, Victor.
> 
> My understanding on how to build a basket for sound quality, might differ than how to build a basket for lower cost.
> 
> ...


Come on. Think about this for a few minutes. Motor mounts in cars are rubber blocks with UNCONNECTED bolts molded into each side. Go replace those with billet steel CNC parts and see how much vibration is transferred compared to the original mounts. 

Someone please show me the way to decouple rigidity and transferrence of vibration...


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I will say, though, that the CNC process and the high end fasteners used to bolt all the parts together does provide an aesthetic that suggests precision. I like the look.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2015)

Andy, you're correct. .. the CNC basket is a thing of beauty.... very impressive. Heck the tweeter CNC work is equally tasty. ...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

darkgable79 said:


> I just read through 9 pages hoping I would learn something of substance about Sinfoni. And yet I have learned nothing. I was one of the guys down south (Houston) that was interested in hearing the speakers. I have a Harman Kardon factory set up in my vehicle that I'm not happy with. So I joined this forum looking for suggestions. Surprisingly for such a large city Houston doesn't have a ton of high end audio shops. I heard the Focals, Hertz, JL & attempted to hear the Illusion carbons (unsuccessful). So when I came across a few Sinfoni threads & read how impressed some members were I wanted to hear them. I got in touch with Emilios & sent a set down here. I'm not an audiophile expert like a lot of you guys on here seem to be, but when I heard these speakers they sounded better than anything I'd heard prior & these were the Maestoso set. Another forum member went to hear them after I did & he pm'd me. Come to find out the shop had the speakers hooked up incorrectly. So with the speakers being hooked up incorrectly & this wasn't even their top of the line set it impressed me even more. Emilios didn't offer me a discount at all & neither did the shop that he sent them to. Price is always a factor in a purchase, but if the consumer feels that they're getting x value for y price then that's all that matters. So when the time comes I'll be purchasing a set of the Sinfoni's to replace my HK system. All I can say is if you hadn't heard the speakers for yourself do so. If your ears enjoy what they're hearing then the price should be considered. That's just my .02 cents from a noob.


Install trumps everything.

In my current install I evaluated four different midranges.

One cost $30, is made in Italy, and performed about as well as the speaker you'd find in a clock radio. (Made in Italy don't come cheap.)
One cost $25, is made in China, and performed pretty well. I passed on it because I found that 75% of the ones that I bought had broken in one way or another. In particular, the surround kept cracking.
One cost $35, is made in India. Looked like an improved version of #2.
One cost $2.50, and was basically equal in performance to #2, but had a paper cone instead of aluminum.

I wound up spending about $100 on drivers, and found that the best one for the job cost $2.50. #2 and #3 probably would've worked, but aluminum delamination is a p.i.t.a., and I think the cheap paper coned woofer will likely last longer.

One thing that's funny about the woofer that I opted for is that it LOOKS like a complete piece of crap. It just happens to perform nicely.

It also appears to be nearly identical to the woofer in the Klipsch computer speakers; it is a bit different, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's from the same OEM, likely in China.



Then again, I find that my method of making speakers is fairly unusual, in that I measure first and listen later. For every hour I spend measuring, I probably spend 15 minutes listening. This is mostly because a lot of projects I make never even make it to "the listening phase" because they fail at "the measuring phase." If a loudspeaker doesn't meet my criteria at the measurement phase, I'll throw it away. Which is also why I rarely use drivers that cost more than $20; I throw a lot of designs away. My design philosophy mirrors John Dunlavy for the most part.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Come on. Think about this for a few minutes. Motor mounts in cars are rubber blocks with UNCONNECTED bolts molded into each side. Go replace those with billet steel CNC parts and see how much vibration is transferred compared to the original mounts.
> 
> Someone please show me the way to decouple rigidity and transferrence of vibration...


not sure what the analogy is being used for here, are you saying that using a flexible frame contributes to sound quality?

like, a steel basket without the rigidity of the cast aluminum, is better because it has a modulus of elasticity that allows it to absorb the sonic energy and dissipate it, or...

:surprised:

no, I get where the aero and reflective optimization in basket architecture is borderline meaningless, but I see examples of recent engineering going full bore with minimizing both in the Illuminator and Vifa NE series and recent Satori offerings.

since this is probably indicative of marketing instead of sound science, making those fancy speaker parts right up to the scalloped motor plates and the open frame/porous spider, "improvements" is basically a cost/benefit ratio based on public perception, "it must be better because it looks fancy" and not on testing or measurement reality...

wait, what?!

I guess it's perhaps, less important than edge termination and diffraction from a half-roll surround, or maybe the amount of cone-attach to the former, or "tri-joint manipulation" but isn't this really all "borderline BS" then?

I'm not always capable of threshing out when the manufacturer is doing something to increase profits over making a better speaker, but looking at trends I'd say the use of billet parts and building a basket with fasteners is ultimately seen as the best a manufacturer can think of, or accomplish since so many of the flagship products out there insist, on themselves as built bits.

Audio Technology, Micro Precision, Sinfoni, A/D/S, etc. stake their prizewinners on it, don't they?

Anyways, it's good to see a little snark when it's due and although I have been steeped in old school Audio, Absolute Sound, theorisms I try to make concessions for science, if it's possible.

If you could explain why putting an acoustic lens over a dome tweeter adds to the flexibility in installation in cars, that would throw some shade, right?

And what that perf grill on your Audiofrog tweeters does, beside protect from poking fingers?

Maybe we'll meet in the middle...


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

cajunner said:


> not sure what the analogy is being used for here, are you saying that using a flexible frame contributes to sound quality?
> 
> like, a steel basket without the rigidity of the cast aluminum, is better because it has a modulus of elasticity that allows it to absorb the sonic energy and dissipate it, or...
> 
> ...


NO. Super tweaky companies choose to CNC parts because it's cheaper when the sales quantity is small and because the up-front cost is lower. Done correctly, it's nearly as precise as a casting. If you want to know which speaker is the better performer, measure it.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2015)

So CNC is "nearly" as precise as casting.... while i greatly respect you Andy.... i just cant agree with that. All the CNC work I've looked at has been amazingly precise.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> So CNC is "nearly" as precise as casting.... while i greatly respect you Andy.... i just cant agree with that. All the CNC work I've looked at has been amazingly precise.


The thing is, a mold doesn't change. Tolerances on a cnc machine can.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2015)

Are tolerances not managed....?
I'm sorry, but this point just doesn't hold water...


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> NO. Super tweaky companies choose to CNC parts because it's cheaper when the sales quantity is small and because the up-front cost is lower. Done correctly, it's nearly as precise as a casting. If you want to know which speaker is the better performer, measure it.


but sinfoni is musical instruments, not just playback devices.

so as trite as it may appear, the idea that a speaker will perform better than a musical instrument is an argument that cannot be won.

if sinfoni is unable to measure well but hearing tests conclude, user reviews conclude, board optimism and bonerism, conclude, sinfoni is the new school and everything that comes non-sinfoni is simply unable to compete, on listener derivative forum campaigns...


wouldn't that mean measurements are useless? A Stradivarius is simply built to a standard that plays without peer, so sinfoni can successfully adopt the Stradivarius pitch line...


I'm not sure if claims of "built to perform in a car's unique environment" extends to the instrument as well, possibly done through thorough measurement, this seems to me to be two lines of advertising copy potentially clashing but if we expect someone to play instruments inside a car, wouldn't that be similar to when a church buys and installs a pipe organ, tuned to the acoustic space?

Or, maybe not. Maybe there are some competing claims going on at the same time, I see a virile group of stalwart defenders of the sinfoni discipline, if speakers were karate we might see a challenge, dojo to dojo...


and yet, doesn't this all smack oneself silly of how infectious the audio bug is, that people would abandon their measurement faith so readily for a pretty exterior and a spiel, a litany of anecdotal reports from their brothers in arms/er.. microphones?


it does to me.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2015)

No sir, I'm just stating my opinion on a post that don't agree with.

I do believe in the product. .. that's clear...

Isn't the entire purpose of CNC o be accurate to the given design and be repeatable?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> No sir, I'm just stating my opinion on a post that don't agree with.
> 
> I do believe in the product. .. that's clear...
> 
> Isn't the entire purpose of CNC o be accurate to the given design and be repeatable?


Yeah, but I don't think it's possible to have the same accuracy as a proper mold

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2015)

Ok... your opinion. ..

Mine is contrary to yours and Andy...

There are quite a few machinists by trade thst are members here... Wish we could get some professional thoughts...


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SQ_TSX said:


> No sir, I'm just stating my opinion on a post that don't agree with.
> 
> I do believe in the product. .. that's clear...
> 
> Isn't the entire purpose of CNC o be accurate to the given design and be repeatable?


gonna have to go with Andy on this, the casting is superior for quantity but the CNC is variable based on several factors that casting doesn't contend with.

I think you can look at how each basket takes non-conformal pressure to judge for yourself, like apply pressure to a corner of the basket and watch it's deformation, or deflection.

the cast basket will behave similarly to each other, but the built CNC basket will have skew, there will be less "perfect" results based on how a bunch of parts affixed together, will be subject to stresses.

so if you get the casting right, it'll always be right up to a point.

if it's necessary to adjust the sinfoni basket when unequally distributed pressure is applied to it, since there is "creep" and unequal "torque" contributing, maybe there is a re-build opportunity here, you send your defective driver back to sinfoni, they loosen and re-torque the basket according to original build specs, and you get a now rehabilitated speaker back, performing "up to original spec" for warranty purposes?

maybe not.

I can't see where a cast basket develops "creep" except when it's been bent past the deformation line, which shouldn't happen in normal installations.

So, all those exceptional designs using parts that bolt together, are dependent on installation criteria that by necessity, must be more robust, or particularly perfect, which is where the best would be tested for mettle...

because anyone who looks at a component set going for thousands, should expect nothing less than optimized mounting architecture for those uber babies to nest in, right?

And if they are just slapped into factory holes, no gasket, no MDF, no routered ring, that's an insult to the brand...

anyways, fun stuff, watching the singularity develop once again, as people dismiss testing, analysis, and measurements for the latest fad, or should I say phad, like sinphoni, haha...


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2015)

All good points... I still believe that CNC is far superior to casting. But if Andy says so... guess I'm incorrect...

But I'm hard headed.... would like some of our machinist members state their thoughts. ..

Heck I'm an accountant. ... what do I know


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> In terms of precision and repeatability, the casting wins, so long as the tool has been cut precisely and the clean up process is done with some care. That's a manual process using files and jigs.


Ahem! Not to be rude, but: Bull ****ing ****!

You were dead on explaining cost. But, you are so far off-base with the above quoted statement, its not even funny.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

SQ_TSX said:


> All good points... I still believe that CNC is far superior to casting. But if Andy says so... guess I'm incorrect...
> 
> But I'm hard headed.... would like some of our machinist members state their thoughts. ..
> 
> Heck I'm an accountant. ... what do I know


I have been a CNC machinist for 20+ years, and own a CNC machine-shop. Don't worry, you are correct. Also FWIW, I machine castings all the time. I am very familiar with how "precise" castings are!


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

wheelieking71 said:


> I have been a CNC machinist for 20+ years, and own a CNC machine-shop. Don't worry, you are correct.


so you are saying a casting is not able to perform up to a CNC built part, if that part is made up of fasteners and broken up into several joints where performance relies on conforming to a precision standard?

we're not talking rims and billet materials anymore, we're talking a built thing using fasteners that have hundredths of slack, using THREADS! against a cast piece.

I can understand if you only want to compare apples to apples, but these are apples and oranges?



SQ_TSX said:


> All good points... I still believe that CNC is far superior to casting. But if Andy says so... guess I'm incorrect...
> 
> But I'm hard headed.... would like some of our machinist members state their thoughts. ..
> 
> Heck I'm an accountant. ... what do I know


as a former operator of lathes, milling machines, etc. I can be trusted to have some merit.

I have used dissimilar metals, worried over stress fracture, work hardening latency times, tempering, galling, etc. and may enjoy more than a layman's perspective.

but what we're getting away from is the thread premise, that Sinfoni is to be looked at as a new thing, under the sun.

and I think we can safely assume that we have had our share of emperors in new clothes, paraded on these message board walls.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

Victor_inox said:


> Point being Sinfoni made it for a sole reason of looking good but at expense of consumer.


Not entirely true.

Here is something you guys should take in to consideration when you ponder these "modular" transducer chassis: projected sales of these models.

That is the bottom line. Andy nailed it. (Then totally fubared it two lines later)

Consider them limited edition. You can bet your sorry ass, if sales went ape-****, it wouldn't be long before those baskets were cast.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

cajunner said:


> so you are saying a casting is not able to perform up to a CNC built part, if that part is made up of fasteners and broken up into several joints where performance relies on conforming to a precision standard?
> 
> we're not talking rims and billet materials anymore, we're talking a built thing using fasteners that have hundredths of slack, using THREADS! against a cast piece.
> 
> ...


If you think Sinfoni is aligning all those parts with the bolts, its probably a good thing you are not an engineer.

You may be a former operator, so what. I was good enough at it that I am now a current owner. Do you even know what "Billet" is? It is NOT what you see all these machined aluminum parts made from. It is a catch marketing phrase. The material is actually extruded.

This whole cast vs. modular debate boils down to one variable. Up Front Cost. Period. Well, that and aesthetics. You can bet it has nothing to do with sonics.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

wheelieking71 said:


> If you think Sinfoni is aligning all those parts with the bolts, its probably a good thing you are not an engineer.
> 
> You may be a former operator, so what. I was good enough at it that I am now a current owner. Do you even know what "Billet" is? It is NOT what you see all these machined aluminum parts made from. It is a catch marketing phrase. The material is actually extruded.
> 
> This whole cast vs. modular debate boils down to one variable. Up Front Cost. Period


agree to disagree?



I use the term "billet" loosely.

So, you don't have to accept that as a statement piece, the look of high-tech is captured but performance-wise, is sub-par to cast parts.

the money, comes from having that statement piece. 

the cost of building a couple dozen sets of Grandioso using machined bits and fasteners is higher per completed set than using casting parts, but overall, cheaper than getting a casting built because the aesthetic, the built part of the line, is more important as a selling feature than performance or measured superior tolerances.

now, if it comes to light that the gap is so tight that manipulating the basket's various fasteners means that you can get higher performance from the design, that would be another thing.

I don't see that being touted yet in the materials. 

The temptation to sum it all up as a cost variable is a little too broad, imho because we're looking at various things besides actual cost per unit build, the focus of the company is to produce the "GRAND" design, and that wouldn't be perceived as such, if a cast basket was used, again imho...

so, I'm glad you're successful at your CNC thing, and all that but let's not get caught up in little bows and neat packages.


It's not just about costs, it's about creating a brand, and a perception.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

cajunner said:


> agree to disagree?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am fine with "agree to disagree" but, (in red ^^^)

It would take far more than a couple dozen sets. More like thousands of sets. Have you priced a die-cast mold recently? Not to mention the minimum poundage to get a foundry to agree to go in to production.

If you see a speaker that has a brand-new design, proprietary, cast basket, you are looking at probably at least $100k. Even if they only ever intend to sell a couple dozen sets. That initial investment is still $100k.

I would make a couple dozen worth of Grandioso basket parts for under $2k

So, not only is it cheaper (by far), it looks cooler. 

And, I am sure they have pins, or locating bosses and counter-bores handling alignment duties. And I wouldn't be surprised if the whole shebang is glued together. As a matter of fact, with some of the adhesives out there nowadays, it wouldn't surprise me if you could take the screws out of those baskets, and they would be fine.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> ill just leave these here. which ones would you want? and yes, i know specs and graphs dont equate to everything, but lets get real for a second.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is the speaker associated with the first graph?? Looks really good! I know graphs aren't everything but I am curious.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Arete said:


> What is the speaker associated with the first graph?? Looks really good! I know graphs aren't everything but I am curious.


LOL I KNOW I KNOW! 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

wheelieking71 said:


> I am fine with "agree to disagree" but, (in red ^^^)
> 
> It would take far more than a couple dozen sets. More like thousands of sets. Have you priced a die-cast mold recently? Not to mention the minimum poundage to get a foundry to agree to go in to production.



not sure what you're saying here.


are you agreeing with me (and Andy) that Sinfoni is making these Grandioso drivers more cheaply using a bunch of machined parts, than making a casting?

that's what I got from your two questions.

it's been explained by Nick at SI in recent posts, discussing his modular BM MK V basket, what the cost structure was.

to me, Sinfoni is getting a great looking driver using cheaply sourced parts and ending up with a statement piece that didn't rely on a casting investment.

it's another example of how perception fits the reality, since I believe that the performance benchmarks that a cast basket hits, will not be hit by these "built" baskets.

I mean, we're not Rolls Royce, here.


I don't think Sinfoni is building to tolerance so small that you don't need a head gasket, haha...

I think the brand is achieved by the aesthetics, and that's kind of where the cost of advertising and marketing copy merge with the production costs, when you ask for 5 grand for a set of components, there's a lot of leeway built into the pricing/performance envelope.

edit*

agree to agree!


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Arete said:


> What is the speaker associated with the first graph?? Looks really good! I know graphs aren't everything but I am curious.


Audiofrog


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

cajunner said:


> are you agreeing with me (and Andy) that Sinfoni is making these Grandioso drivers more cheaply using a bunch of machined parts, than making a casting?


BINGO


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

cajunner said:


> it's been explained by Nick at SI in recent posts, discussing his modular BM MK V basket, what the cost structure was.


I am familiar. I quoted parts for Nick. I was too high, and not local. But, the point remains, I am well aware of the solid vs. casting cost breakover point.
The real trick is guessing projected sales correctly.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2015)

Well there you have it.... AudioFrog speakers measure and graph better than Sinfoni speakers.... 

However, at least to my ears, the Sinfoni product does sound better than anything else I've personally used.... now, I haven't used AudioFrog. ... so I can't speak to their sound.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Can a owner of this flatten out their EQ and get a raw RTA?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

wheelieking71 said:


> I am familiar. I quoted parts for Nick. I was too high, and not local. But, the point remains, I am well aware of the solid vs. casting cost breakover point.
> The real trick is guessing projected sales correctly.


nice!

I look at Alphasonik basket parts and with the alpha symbol incorporated in it, they must have thought they would sell a crap-load of them, or these economies of scale are not the same for off-shore sourced goods.

Like, why do so many speaker designers/companies like to go on and on about how they've been touring Chinese factories and found the very best ones to contract with, and at this point, who would prefer to hear "been touring the East Coast production facilities and have found the best one" instead?

I'm guessing JL being one of the last hold-outs for building high-spec drivers here in the US, means that the difference between Chinese quality and American Quality can be summed up in price differences, or...


let's use JBL, who left US production, pro-sumer went to Mexico, then had most of the production shift to China.

Is the old pricing scheme of the drivers too much, did JBL bet on being able to sell more volume if they reduced production costs by getting cheap labor?

Did that happen?

I think it did. I see quality engineering give way to cookie cutter, and sales rose, even while product quality and cost went down.

like, the MS series of midrange baskets, isn't that some off-shelf design? Aren't there other companies using that same basket? Is it too expensive for Harman Intl. to actually make their own baskets anymore?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

There are lots of high spec drivers built here.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

wheelieking71 said:


> Ahem! Not to be rude, but: Bull ****ing ****!
> 
> You were dead on explaining cost. But, you are so far off-base with the above quoted statement, its not even funny.


As another cnc machinist, I echo this statement.

A good operator can keep sizes and true position within .0001" or smaller on a run of 50 or 5000 pieces. 

If you are anything like me, you broke the basket pieces down individually and figured out how many ops it would take to recreate them.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

hurrication said:


> As another cnc machinist, I echo this statement.
> 
> A good operator can keep sizes and true position within .0001" or smaller on a run of 50 or 5000 pieces.
> 
> If you are anything like me, you broke the basket pieces down individually and figured out how many ops it would take to recreate them.


True position? Whats that? ANSI-huh?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't care if they are made of the Virgin Mary's pubics. How do they sound. Show a RTA with no EQ in a car.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

wheelieking71 said:


> True position? Whats that? ANSI-huh?


I think it's just some made up OSHA level mumbo jumbo from some meaningless organization.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Well my set is getting installed next week.... best I can offer is after complete... I'll invite anyone willing to meet me in Nashville the opportunity to listen to them....


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You can't meter them? That will be the deciding factor that seperates the BS from the truth.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

I'm not following you. .. meter what ?

You guys are getting way to worried about graphs... and charts... we're in this hobby because of our love for music... right ???


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Put them on the RTA before any EQ work. Set crossovers and run noise. 

That what I would do if I had a set and truly believed in them.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

An 'RTA' graph of a speaker measured in someone's car isn't going to provide any worthwhile information regarding how it performs vs. another speaker whose response is provided by the manufacturer. There are numerous ways to screw up a proper measurement. Not to mention, there's probably 3 people on this forum that really understand how to measure the response of a speaker in a way that's useful enough to deduce anything from the measurements. 


and I'm not talking about just "RTA".


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Wouldn't it just make more sense to listen to them.... the sound is what's important. Isn't it ???

I personally don't care how them meter, graph or look like,on an RTA.... 

The sound is,what's important

A response curve is not the end all be all.... it can't covey the speed of the driver. . Nor the actual timber and tone....


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQ_TSX said:


> Wouldn't it just make more sense to listen to them.... the sound is what's important. Isn't it ???
> 
> I personally don't care how them meter, graph or look like,on an RTA....
> 
> The sound is,what's important


and on the flip side of what I just posted above...

properly measured response can go a lot further towards determining the performance of one speaker vs another. and save you a buttload of time and money. people will continue to debate "I don't listen to graphs"... but you can always measure polar response... and that has been scientifically proven to be the single most important determining factor in subjective opinion of a speaker.

something to chew on.


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## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> NO. Super tweaky companies choose to CNC parts because it's cheaper when the sales quantity is small and because the up-front cost is lower. Done correctly, it's nearly as precise as a casting. If you want to know which speaker is the better performer, measure it.





SkizeR said:


> The thing is, a mold doesn't change. Tolerances on a cnc machine can.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I have some input. I respect most folks views on here and especially guys contributing to the car audio manufacturing scene. Im fairly familiar with these two processes that are being mentioned. Much more familiar from the manufacturing stand point then sales and I am closer to it looking from the shop floor rather out the window of a bosses perch. 20 or so years in machinist, design, build and programming roles of sold and cast machined materials from aluminum to Titanium, Inconel to Ductile Iron some of the nastiest to cut, bend or weld materials there are to cast with. Aluminum being the simplist one.

Its hard to read that castings are more precise than CNC machined parts. It honestly boggles my mind some. 

I currently am employed by a pretty well known company that builds some of the most highly advanced machined rotating components in the US. We do so out of solid materials as well as castings. Investment casting, injection casting, standard molded castings, high pressure vacuum formed castings and so on.. None of these casting can be produced within a tolerance band equivalent to a CNC machines repeatability. There are so many variables with castings. Shrinkage for one plays a major role in a parts movement as the molecular structure settles into its new forced shape, it continues to move. Goes out of round, bends easily, surface finish is an issue as well. Depending on if it is a mounting point for two surfaces I would always want machined surfaces rather than cast.

from say Andys stand point, I know a start up as far as tooling a speaker with a manufacturer is costly. I discussed this in detail with another guy who was building subs early this year trying to help him figure a way to cut cost from our side of the table.. If you approach a manufacturer with a design from your own designer that's going to save you a ton of money. That design can then be used to produce a CNC program which may envolve multiple steps to achieve finished product but with geometric dimensioning and tolerancing used by said designer the CNC will be able to hit it on the mark with control of tooling offsets everytime, and can hold much tighter tolerances. One place I worked before I held +/- .00005 on a turning machine surface all day. The second best way to drive cost of per piece down in CNC manufacturing is by the volume of parts, the higher the cheaper, not the other way around. Set ups, fixturing, tooling and special tooling, programming all come into play for a CNC shop but lead times are usually small.

Castings.. "Molds dont change size" well, depending on conditions of coarse they do. All materials grow and shrink with heat and cold but, the casting out of the mold is what really moves.. Your again going to need a design. That design has to go to a CNC programmer to either write a program to machine a mold or if its a high pressure injection type company you could possibly avoid this step. Instead of buying just a block of material to cut out now you have to source larger qauntities usually. Companies do not normall sell a 1 pound chunk off of an ingot. That has to be considered and accounted for "casting companies will normally offer choices of what they stock" but may have a minimum order qauntity to make a mold and fire up the smelting pot. In my world, castings suck! They are impossible to keep flat, they have memory so if you straighten them in a press to get flat enough to machine they spring back, the surface finishes are usually crap compared to a machined surface. And depending on material and thickness they crack very easily.

Here is the one place I could refer someone wanting a precision casting made by the pros that have cut all costs out possible by refining their processes. Not where I work but we have used them in a pinch in the industry I am in. Great folks and they are a one stop shop, they can machine your parts for you as well saving time and $ on shipping and leadtimes.

Precision Investment Casting | Metal Castings | USA Foundry | Signicast

id rather have a forged casting with a machined surface for my mating points and mounting surfaces.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DDfusion said:


> I don't care if they are made of the Virgin Mary's pubics. How do they sound. Show a RTA with no EQ in a car.


Which car? What would that prove?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> What is the speaker associated with the first graph?? Looks really good! I know graphs aren't everything but I am curious.


the one on the top is pretty damn good. but i think your also experiencing the "decent looking girl standing next to the ugly girl" effect lol :laugh:


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> the one on the top is pretty damn good. but i think your also experiencing the "decent looking girls standing next to the ugly girl" effect lol :laugh:


Three people quoted me and only one person actually answered the question.  The GB60 is a nice looking driver....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> Three people quoted me and only one person actually answered the question.  The GB60 is a nice looking driver....


its cause i wasnt trying to turn it into a "this is better than that".. it was just a "heres a similar speaker that has less issues right off the bat, and how one of this price range should look on paper"


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

again, we're confusing advertising claims with known quantities.

ErinH hit his mark, the polar plotting of drivers is where we leave behind the RTA graph and consumer level "ooh's and ahh's" from manufacturers or even generic home-brewed setups costing under 100 bucks, and enter the wu tang of speaker science.


it's true to believe that a speaker that measures well, sounds good, and over and over we have heard that to be the case.

it's almost philosophical, in that the reverse is somehow disregarded in the wake of anecdotal reports from overly enthusiastic, enthusiasts...

a speaker that measures poorly, does not have to sound bad, but the odds are it will not sound better than a speaker that measures well.

some of us have come to understand varying degrees of distortion can energize a speaker's performance envelope, so that we enjoy the euphony, because distortion doesn't have to be unpleasant.

After all, isn't all of art, actually distortion? Visually reproduced scene renderings, musical notes perfectly placed, various interpretations such as impressionism, intellectualism, (for the writers, haha.. art in letters) and in everyday life, where a well-placed distortion of the truth, "honey, you are beautiful" is the crux upon which we succeed or fail...

so let's imagine that sinfoni is capable of capturing something so unique, it cannot be qualified by measurements. 

and let's give those who have heard the sinfoni magic, their due.

what missing is why now? Why suddenly, an appearance of formidable insertion into the upper crusties' wallet hand, when retroactively, people are now beginning to give the same aural accolades to the previous models, and previous years' products?


isn't that suspicious?


I mean, I have been accused of being a lot of things when it comes to scrutiny of the sinfoni cult of personality, and isn't that too, a sign?


anyways, let's remember that this all started with a company who calls their speakers, instruments, and sells a 5K set of components-

and the people who swear by them as the best they've ever heard.

We have to start listening to some sound principles, we have to apply PT Barnum's template, we have to apply time and pressure...


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^You seem to have taken an obsession yourself with the Sinfoni brand. I have read in threads not even about Sinfoni, your opinions/comments regarding them.

What scares you more, that they actually did happen on to something special with the Grandioso Speakers, or that the price to play is so high?

I mean, It's not like 5k or even more hasn't been where other companies top tier offerings lie and I haven't seen the scrutiny the Sinfoni brand has brought. I'm not opposed to it, just curious why others aren't held to the same standard?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

I want to appologize to the members of this forum. You see I wanted to express my thoughts and opinions on the various Sinfoni products because I personally am sold on them. Not by marketing techniques nor superfluous claims.... but through personal experience. It is very apparent that hands on experience is simply not a sufficient measure of the quality of a product or brand, it needs to quantified.... not experienced. ..

The reason I'm passionate about the Sinfoni brand... I've installed and listened to nearly every product they have produced to date. From the original S Series speakers... to the Desiderio. ... I've also used and installed many products from other manufacturers; Morel, Dynaudio, Brax, Helix, Micro Precision, Scan Speak, Vifa, Seas... and the list goes on.... ALL had points that stood out as positives.... ALL had points that I felt needed improvement. ... Simply put... the Sinfoni Maestoso set changed that. .. I could not point to one area that was lacking.... the Grandioso set... took those same impressions and multiplied them.... in my opinion.... they are the gold standard others are measured. .. 

And YES that does include AudioFrog. .. now the AF speakers just might be as good or better than the Sinfoni. .. I don't know... I've 0 experience with them... so I would only be speculating. .. 

What I DO know is I plan to seek out and listen to some AF speakers.... I do also look forward to competing in MECA and IASCA during the 2016 season... and do hope to encounter some AF equipped vehicles.... you know a little friendly head to head comparison would be a good thing....

Guys I'm so very sorry for believing that this forum was put together for the sole purpose to share our experiences with others of like minds and interest....

What I'm not going to do... is allow a few individuals to conduct a witch hunt that has no basis.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Very good points Jerry... you know the Brax Matrix, ZR Labs, Micro Precision Studio and Rainbow Platinum come to mind as compatitive price points for top tier speaker sets....

Almost seems like someone feels a bit threatened by Sinfoni. ..


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just looking at the FR graph on the Sinfoni, I would not be able to HP the woofer on my $5K set below ~ 125 hz. That sucks.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Just looking at the FR graph on the Sinfoni, I would not be able to HP the woofer on my $5K set below ~ 125 hz. That sucks.


or low pass the tweeter below 3k


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^You seem to have taken an obsession yourself with the Sinfoni brand. I have read in threads not even about Sinfoni, your opinions/comments regarding them.
> 
> What scares you more, that they actually did happen on to something special with the Grandioso Speakers, or that the price to play is so high?
> 
> I mean, It's not like 5k or even more hasn't been where other companies top tier offerings lie and I haven't seen the scrutiny the Sinfoni brand has brought. I'm not opposed to it, just curious why others aren't held to the same standard?


I haven't heard Critical Mass speakers, and yet I see the same marketing spiels with a little less incredulistic, approaches and have to wonder why are the Sinfoni immune to the debate of cost/benefit ratios, and relative value here in Npdang's former forum?

This place was built on the bedrock of showing where advertising copy didn't meet with measurements, and that metric seems to float above the mindset of Sinfoni faith-filled adherents, where their brand is above the scrutinizing other companies have succumbed to, like Ultra or early Morel, etc.


so when I grab the forum's shovel and dig into it, metaphorically, shouldn't there be some acknowledgement that perhaps, these are just another set of speakers regardless of the claims, and that because they haven't been endowed with supernatural powers, the testing we give credence towards Scans and Dynaudio, and perhaps these manufacturer provided graphs, should also serve to supply a value judgment based on testing, here as well?

I don't know if it's irony or something else, that a manager of a sound-off, the subjective critique of various higher end drivers in a shoot-out and the basis for countless threads and discussions, would abandon that testing and tier system and put a new brand on the block for purchase, disregarding all the testing and parroting the latest owners in praise for these, Grandioso... unless he was newly minted as a dealer for the brand...

haha...


irony, or something else...

anyways it looks like someone is once again, using this forum and this marketing by word-of-mouth proxy, to profit once again. But that's okay, I guess. If it weren't for dealers, how would we get to experience the new Critical Mass of Italy's best profit margins...


wait, is that adversarial? Is that going too far?


I don't know... I just thought it was worth looking at, I'm not above criticism but most people are aware, I'm not served by a profit motive in any of this...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> or low pass the tweeter below 3k


That too


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> its cause i wasnt trying to turn it into a "this is better than that".. it was just a "heres a similar speaker that has less issues right off the bat, and how one of this price range should look on paper"


I gotcha. Well I think the secret is out.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Victor posted this video in another thread on the forum. I really enjoyed it. Floyd Tolle discusses much of what is being talked about here in the video. It's almost spot on about subjective experience and objective data. He also discusses the importance of the FR graphs. It is one of the most important tools we have to decide if our money is going in the right place. ESPECIALLY if we are spending in the thousands. (He uses some examples showing some graphs of speakers exceeding 10 grand) Otherwise subjective experience is all we have to go on. We know that opinions are like.... Ya know what and everyone has one. 



http://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

A in car graph would show if they do or do not track better than the initial graph.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Graphs and specs ARE important... they provide the user a basic understanding of what a speakers capabilities are... This information is needed to choose and/or design the most effective environment, ie enclosures, for said speaker....

Graphs, charts, specs.... can NOT provide any insight into tonal characteristics due to materials used in the construction process. The ONLY way to know this... is to sit down and LISTEN to them...

How this is a difficult concept to grasp is beyond me...

To borrow a phrase from an old forum member: 
*"Trust your ears...." by Peter Lufrano*


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

One should easily look at these speakers and see that 95% of the selling point will be on cosmetics.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> A in car graph would show if they do or do not track better than the initial graph.


For ANY speaker, how can an in car response be flatter / smoother than a response measured on a baffle in a larger room?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Graphs and specs ARE important... they provide the user a basic understanding of what a speakers capabilities are... This information is needed to choose and/or design the most effective environment, ie enclosures, for said speaker....
> 
> Graphs, charts, specs.... can NOT provide any insight into tonal characteristics due to materials used in the construction process. The ONLY way to know this... is to sit down and LISTEN to them...
> 
> How this is a difficult concept to grasp is beyond me...


Did you get a chance to see the Floyd Toole video posted on the previous page? It may answer the questions you're asking.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

cajunner said:


> I haven't heard Critical Mass speakers, and yet I see the same marketing spiels with a little less incredulistic, approaches and have to wonder why are the Sinfoni immune to the debate of cost/benefit ratios, and relative value here in Npdang's former forum?
> 
> This place was built on the bedrock of showing where advertising copy didn't meet with measurements, and that metric seems to float above the mindset of Sinfoni faith-filled adherents, where their brand is above the scrutinizing other companies have succumbed to, like Ultra or early Morel, etc.
> 
> ...


I didn't start this thread and I didn't sell the Grandioso's to Jeremy. AND furthermore, I don't plan on selling many because of the price point, which means that I not spending all this time defending the Grandioso so I can eat. 

And yes, I have organized and executed two comparison tests. So, I have experience with many speakers, including many that had all the build practices and "graphs" that made them the best sounding speakers ever, and yet, none of those seems to do all that well. I set these up in a controlled environment and did play them against several other speakers/brands and found them to be surprisingly good (only because I too am a skeptic by nature).

I don't plan on setting up a test for every new speaker that comes out to try to further justify calling said speaker good or bad. But you are welcome to.



V 2the C said:


> One should easily look at these speakers and see that 95% of the selling point will be on cosmetics.


If only a few in this thread would actually have heard these and have some clue of what they are talking about.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Guess what 400hz sounds like. 





400hz


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

95% ???

Granted at this level of product, cosmetics do play a role... but 95%...
So using your analysis... the speaker can sound like a big plate of poop 95% of the time as long as it looks good... looks elite...

That's just a load of BS...

For someone to make such an investment into a product... you don't feel that performance is important to that individual...?
If that is the case... that person would be a complete fool...

I can tell you from my point of view... performance is paramount... it trumps everything else... For instance, the Appassionato speaker set from Sinfoni looks quite plain... very vanilla.... It is however very well designed and constructed... and sounds absolutely wonderful... better than most other brands top offerings...


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Did you get a chance to see the Floyd Toole video posted on the previous page? It may answer the questions you're asking.


No sir I haven't... I'm not asking any questions... I'm stating my opinions based upon my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.... not pure conjecture....

What are you using for your basis...?
It appears there's a ton of theory being tossed out as fact...


Once again guys..." Trust your ears...."

How is this a foreign concept to grasp...??



WOW... I'm really going to piss off some people when I post my thoughts on the Sinfoni Prodigio amplifier....


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Guess what 400hz sounds like.
> 
> 
> 400hz



OK, let's take five different but similar musical instruments and play the same passage through each... will they ALL sound precisely the same ? No, each exhibit their own unique signature... Can this not logically be true for a group of similar speakers.... ???


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

A 400hz tone at 0db at 90db sounds like a 400hz tone at 0db at 90db no matter where it comes from


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> OK, let's take five different but similar musical instruments and play the same passage through each... will they ALL sound precisely the same ? No, each exhibit their own unique signature... Can this not logically be true for a group of similar speakers.... ???


No. If you play the same passage through 5 different but similar instruments, any changes in sound are from differing levels and orders of harmonics and resonances.

A speaker should not have ANY of these to any audible degree, or it is changing the sound, and no longer reproducing it.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> No sir I haven't... I'm not asking any questions... I'm stating my opinions based upon my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.... not pure conjecture....
> 
> What are you using for your basis...?
> It appears there's a ton of theory being tossed out as fact...
> ...


Because ears are easy to fool. Even the best ears.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

The reason I want to see the graph in car is to see how the mid handles the low end and how the mid handles up to the higher than I prefer tweeter cut off


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> No. If you play the same passage through 5 different but similar instruments, any changes in sound are from differing levels and orders of harmonics and resonances.
> 
> A speaker should not have ANY of these to any audible degree, or it is changing the sound, and no longer reproducing it.




Why do musicians tend to gravitate to specific instruments and/or combinations of instruments and gear... they do it because the blending of said gear creates a unique sonic signature...



If I'm understanding correctly... ideally you want to have a system that is maximally flat from the start... That's great... it will give you a great baseline to begin your tuning session... 


Now please explain to me what your goal is during the tuning phase ?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Simple. Basically what it is now. Something that will build the Harmon curve(my preferred) 
Without having to boost every octave to keep output across the curve. Something if you cut the peaks out you still have good output


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Why do musicians tend to gravitate to specific instruments and/or combinations of instruments and gear... they do it because the blending of said gear creates a unique sonic signature...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Different materials have different sonics. But it's not the exact same frequency at that point. We are not making music but listening to it.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> The reason I want to see the graph in car is to see how the mid handles the low end and how the mid handles up to the higher than I prefer tweeter cut off



I can perfectly understand why you would want to see a graph for the above... however, a graph in my Acura will be very different than a graph in say...an SUV... It will provide a general idea of what capabilities are... but it will not be an end all be all analysis across the board...

But I do see how it can be very helpful in initial evaluation... However, I always come back to ...."Trust what you hear...."


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Once again guys..." Trust your ears...."
> 
> How is this a foreign concept to grasp...??


I tune only by ear. It took about 2 years before I could trust my ears to any degree of accuracy. In the interim I figured out that my Genesis amps were doing jack **** for SQ, the sound sucked even with the Genesis. Try listening to a song you are very familiar with on a 2ch at home or on good cans. Then listen to it in your car. Hear a difference? Can you pick 5 differences? I'm betting you can't. So much for using / trusting your ears.





SQ_TSX said:


> WOW... I'm really going to piss off some people when I post my thoughts on the Sinfoni Prodigio amplifier....


I might smile at your subjective bias, but I won't get pissed off, not worth it.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

SQ_TSX said:


> OK, let's take five different but similar musical instruments and play the same passage through each... will they ALL sound precisely the same ? No, each exhibit their own unique signature... Can this not logically be true for a group of similar speakers.... ???


something my friend always uses as an example is

you take a guitar and a saxophone. You play a D on both. They look the same on a graph but do they sound the same?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Simple. Basically what it is now. Something that will build the Harmon curve(my preferred)
> Without having to boost every octave to keep output across the curve. Something if you cut the peaks out you still have good output



Fair enough... So your goal is to emulate a preset frequency curve that has been designated as the standard of SQ in the automotive environment...

If you have a flat response... it's going to take some major tuning to carbon copy that curve... a lot of boost and ton of cut throughout the frequency bands... Many times copious amounts of boosting and cutting can effect dynamics because of the strain on the other various parts of the system.... ie. amplifiers... 

Now, what if said speaker exhibited many of the traits that compose that "golden" RTA curve.... Wouldn't you have much less tuning to do... Wouldn't it sound more natural ?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

If a driver has weak mid bass it's going to have weak midbass in every install.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Can you show a RTA or no? If you can't I'll let it go. If you can I'd really appreciate it.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

No I can not show you an RTA measurement TODAY.... 

As I've stated earlier, my install will be started next week... so the speakers are in boxes ready to be dropped off with my vehicle...

After the install is complete, sure I'll show you all the graphs you want...


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Brian_smith06 said:


> something my friend always uses as an example is
> 
> you take a guitar and a saxophone. You play a D on both. They look the same on a graph but do they sound the same?



Very good point sir...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Thank you very much. Pre tuning would be great.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> A in car graph would show if they do or do not track better than the initial graph.


100% entirely dependent on the car and install. It would be a meaningless graph

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Graphs and specs ARE important... they provide the user a basic understanding of what a speakers capabilities are... This information is needed to choose and/or design the most effective environment, ie enclosures, for said speaker....
> 
> Graphs, charts, specs.... can NOT provide any insight into tonal characteristics due to materials used in the construction process. The ONLY way to know this... is to sit down and LISTEN to them...
> 
> ...


Sounds like one of the linear power sales pitches.. and we all know those guys are lunatics lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> 100% entirely dependent on the car and install. It would be a meaningless graph
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


It would show if the driver needs a ton of EQ work. One of the pitches for these is they dont


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

I would say they are passionate about their product... Heck, the new Linear Power amplifiers are power houses...

Ray has taken a dead brand... re-built it... and is now trying to promote it... How can you not respect that... He has a dream and is trying to achieve it...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> It would show if the driver needs a ton of EQ work. One of the pitches for these is they dont


All....speakers....in....all....cars....in....all....installs....need....a....****....ton....of....eq.....to....sound....tonally....accurate....period. Anyone....claiming....otherwise....is....spouting....BS....and....they....have....untrained....ears....that....can't....tell....a....difference....with....any....degree....of....repeat ability....and....accuracy.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> I would say they are passionate about their product... Heck, the new Linear Power amplifiers are power houses...
> 
> Ray has taken a dead brand... re-built it... and is now trying to promote it... How can you not respect that... He has a dream and is trying to achieve it...


I can't respect it because of his sales pitches. According to him, his amps and speakers literally defy physics

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Also, that whole guitar vs sax analogy.. useless for the situation. But have different distortion and harmonics on purpose. A speaker is supposed to have none of that

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> All....speakers....in....all....cars....in....all....installs....need....a....****....ton....of....eq.....to....sound....tonally....accurate....period. Anyone....claiming....otherwise....is....spouting....BS....and....they....have....untrained....ears....that....can't....tell....a....difference....with....any....degree....of....repeat ability....and....accuracy.


Some need more than others. Look at Focal and how much they need the tweeter cut to not be ear peircing.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Once again...

After my install is complete in about two weeks...I'm happy to demo it to anyone that would like to listen... Those individuals can form their own opinion...

To answer your unasked question... yes it will be tuned using a Helix DSP Pro...

I'll be glad to provide auditions with the EQ and without...


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Ya know I don't discount subjective experience. I love reading reviews about speakers but one thing I now know is how a persons perception of something can be effected by things like cost and looks. Studies have shown that in double blind studies people will rate products higher if it's more expensive. Not just with speakers but anything. Studies have also shown (which Floyd Tolle discusses in his video) that if it looks better it will also be gauged better than something not as flashy. Floyd Tolle also discusses these studies which Harmon has conducted. Speakers were rated when the listener couldn't see the product then rated again when the listener could SEE the product. When they could see the product and the flashy cabinet it was in, nice wood carving etc it received a higher score. On the other hand if it wasn't "pretty" it received a lower score. This happened often. This doesn't mean that a nice looking driver can't sound good, obviously.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

DDfusion said:


> It would show if the driver needs a ton of EQ work. One of the pitches for these is they dont


It would show the final interior response needs a ton of EQ work, not the driver.

Useless measurement for what you are after...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

What I'm after is the statement these don't need a ton of EQ in car. 
So it's not useless


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> What I'm after is the statement these don't need a ton of EQ in car.
> So it's not useless


true. but its still somewhat meaningless since you should be taking what those people are saying with a massive grain of salt. the day a car doesnt need a lot, or much at all eq in a relatively normal install, will be the day pigs fly


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> true. but its still somewhat meaningless since you should be taking what those people are saying with a massive grain of salt. the day a car doesnt need a lot, or much at all eq in a relatively normal install, will be the day pigs fly












Who said pigs can't fly!!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> See pigs can fly!!


ok, so maybe these speakers are the bees knees :blush:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> See pigs can fly!!


I knew it !!!
They can fly.... all is right in the audiophile world !!!




great photo btw....


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

deeppinkdiver said:


> I have some input. I respect most folks views on here and especially guys contributing to the car audio manufacturing scene. Im fairly familiar with these two processes that are being mentioned. Much more familiar from the manufacturing stand point then sales and I am closer to it looking from the shop floor rather out the window of a bosses perch. 20 or so years in machinist, design, build and programming roles of sold and cast machined materials from aluminum to Titanium, Inconel to Ductile Iron some of the nastiest to cut, bend or weld materials there are to cast with. Aluminum being the simplist one.
> 
> Its hard to read that castings are more precise than CNC machined parts. It honestly boggles my mind some.
> 
> ...


Yes, all of this is true for a CNC vs. a casting. I have yet to see a speaker basket that's a complete CNC from a block of billet aluminum. Maybe someone will do it. Most of the ones I see are a bunch of rings and spokes, attached with fasteners or just rings and standoffs attached with fasteners. 

In any case, and the final part of my tirade was that the basket has almost NO effect on the sound of the speaker but it has a big effect on the perceived value because it provides the appearance of close tolerances and precision. 

On the subject of trusting your ears vs. measurements:

There's a 100% chance that if the curve looks terrible, it's not a great speaker. Now, a single on-axis frequency response curve is NOT the whole story. 2nd and 3rd order distortion graphs and low and high power are necessary and so are measurements off axis. All of these together characterize the speaker and that characterization includes the performance of the cone material, linearity of the spider, damping provided by the surround, audible mechanical noise caused by air rushing around under the spider, modal distortion of the cone, the effect of dustcap size, material and attachment method, strength of the motor relative to moving mass...Everything. 

If the on-axis frequency response curve sucks for the speaker's application, the speaker sucks. No additional measurement is going to reveal some magical property that negates the most basic of all qualifications. Liking your favorite James Taylor acoustic track on a speaker that measures well doesn't prove that the measurements don't matter.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> ok, so maybe these speakers are the bees knees :blush:


Nah, pigs don't fly


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

sqnut said:


> All....speakers....in....all....cars....in....all....installs....need....a....****....ton....of....eq.....to....sound....tonally....accurate....period. Anyone....claiming....otherwise....is....spouting....BS....and....they....have....untrained....ears....that....can't....tell....a....difference....with....any....degree....of....repeat ability....and....accuracy.





DDfusion said:


> Some need more than others. Look at Focal and how much they need the tweeter cut to not be ear peircing.





SkizeR said:


> true. but its still somewhat meaningless since you should be taking what those people are saying with a massive grain of salt. the day a car doesnt need a lot, or much at all eq in a relatively normal install, will be the day pigs fly


I had a car I competed with in 1994 that could achieve a perfect RTA score (every frequency 1/3 octave within 3dB of the next) without any equalizer. Now, was the response perfect, no. And if using 1/6 resolution, it would have definitely showed issues. 

So, yes, eq's are needed. However, asking for Jeremy to post a RTA graph of his particular car, is useless at best.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> If the on-axis frequency response curve sucks for the speaker's application, the speaker sucks. No additional measurement is going to reveal some magical property that negates the most basic of all qualifications. Liking your favorite James Taylor acoustic track on a speaker that measures well doesn't prove that the measurements don't matter.


Going by by the posted FR graph, the Sinfoni's are probably the worlds best and most expensive......................................................................................................................................................................................paper weights.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> I had a car I competed with in 1994 that could achieve a perfect RTA score (every frequency 1/3 octave within 3dB of the next) without any equalizer. Now, was the response perfect, no. And if using 1/6 resolution, it would have definitely showed issues.
> 
> So, yes, eq's are needed. However, asking for Jeremy to post a RTA graph of his particular car, is useless at best.


but what about people claiming they were designed and tailored for a car? i see ddfusions point since people were saying that earlier and in other threads


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Nah, pigs don't fly



But it's right there... in picture form.... I mean it has to be true... it's right in front of me... just like a graph....


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Going by by the posted FR graph, the Sinfoni's are probably the worlds best and most expensive......................................................................................................................................................................................paper weights.



I can tell you.... Best sounding paperweights I've ever encountered... and I've encountered a LOT of paperweights in my time.... !!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> but what about people claiming they were designed and tailored for a car? i see ddfusions point since people were saying that earlier and in other threads


I don't know. I've personally never believed anything is designed in a car. Not when I move 2" in my car and hear the frequency and phase change. 

However, I heard these. And my wife (who doesn't care to know anything about speakers) heard these and she could pick them out 100% of the time and thought they sounded pretty amazing. Very 3-D. I trust her ears/memory as I have tested them over and over and she has always passed. I heard them on a setup in house, not in my car....a very controlled environment.

But again, remember, I'm just trying to get rich by pushing these. Lol


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> I had a car I competed with in 1994 that could achieve a perfect RTA score (every frequency 1/3 octave within 3dB of the next) without any equalizer.


RTA....competiotions....are....not....about....the....best....sounding....car.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Just pointing out my lack of eq in a car and a perfect RTA 1/3 octave.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> RTA....competiotions....are....not....about....the....best....sounding....car.



Now hold on.... RTA is a measurement... showing the "golden" curve... 

How could that not be about SQ....?

I mean it couldn't be about how it sounds... right ?
I can't rely on my ears... they are getting tricked... according to most disputing my thoughts in this thread...


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

SQ_TSX said:


> Now hold on.... RTA is a measurement... showing the "golden" curve...
> 
> How could that not be about SQ....?
> 
> ...


:rimshot::devil:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Thank you, Thank you.... I'll be here all week...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I just want to see how they do under 100hz and how the tweeter does crossed over that high. On a graph


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> I can tell you.... Best sounding paperweights I've ever encountered... and I've encountered a LOT of paperweights in my time.... !!


Since you're such an advocate for using your ears, try what I suggested a page or so back. Listen to a track on your 2ch at home, or on decent cans, then listen in a car running the Sinfonis. Set the network and TA, but don't eq. See if you can pick a difference. See if you can pick five. I'll give you a spoiler.

If you can *really* hear the difference, both the 2ch and headphones will sound *more tonally accurate*. That's because the bigger the room you listen in, the less effect it has on what you hear. It still has an effect, but much less. For instance early reflections are 90% of what you hear in a car, but only ~40% in a normal sized room. So the $200 headphones or the decent (with good measurements) and great sounding $800 speakers will sound more accurate than $500-5K speakers in the car.

If you think the car sounds as good or better (the car will have more bass, granted), but we are talking tonal accuracy, so if you feel the car sounds as good or better, then you're not *really* hearing a difference. 

This is an iron law, and no speaker can circumvent it. That's half the story. The rest has to do with what an eq can do in a car. All cars need extensive use of the eq to sound tonally correct. In a 2 way, a woofer that can't play below ~125 is a paper weight, specially if like most, you have the sub at the back. With a sub upfront, you can get by with a slightly higher xover, but getting a sub installed upfront, and deadened properly is a pita. One I certainly wouldn't want to indulge in. 

The other thing in a 2way is a tweeter that can play low. I can still get by with one that rolls off around 3khz, cause I'm cutting a fair bit in that range, and I'll just have to cut less. What's critical though is the distortion profile it throws out, 1khz and lower. 

Speakers that measure better are easier to tune and end up sounding better, always.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> Just pointing out my lack of eq in a car and a perfect RTA 1/3 octave.





SQ_TSX said:


> Now hold on.... RTA is a measurement... showing the "golden" curve...
> 
> How could that not be about SQ....?
> 
> ...


If you measure the top 5 cars competing in SQ, you will not get a 'perfect' slope downwards at 1/3 octave.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

I do have one question.... why exactly do you guys seem to think that the Grandioso has no output below 125hz....?


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

SQ_TSX said:


> Very good point sir...


Stumbled upon this thread and skimmed through the last few posts... WOW!!

This is one thing I am starting to hate about this site. People who thinks that RTA and measurements tell the whole story, and do NOT go listen to the product in question themselves before bashing it.

I for one have listened to the sinfoni speakers, compared to my beloved Dyns actually and liked it more. NO I am not affiliated with Sinfoni in any way. I am part of team Focal and Arc Audio actually. I am a huge fan of DIY speakers like Scan Speak, RAALs, Vifa, Accuton, Thiel, Seas, etc.... But sinfoni makes FANTASTIC sounding speakers and I stand by that! I cannot even imagine how good the Grandiso sounds! I only heard the lower line...

Any questions about the Sinfoni feel free to PM me for my honest opinion..

Im out!!
~Chad


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks for your input nizzle....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Thanks for your input nizzle....


Fo shizzle

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

LOL


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Hearing a board is more pointless than seeing a graph.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Hearing a board is more pointless than seeing a graph.


Sorry, what ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> I do have one question.... why exactly do you guys seem to think that the Grandioso has no output below 125hz....?


It's not about no output, but look at the graph on page 10. There is a 12db roll off from ~150 to 80hz. By crossing low you are losing a lot of output in the region that gives the mid bass its mass. If a driver is rolling off you can't eq it back in. So you'll need to run the sub higher to not loose in the overall FR. A sub running that high has sonic issues, some that can be cured, others that cant. Oh and it also means you're basically hearing 60-160 in mono. A high xover with the sub at the back NEVER sounds right.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Oh... you've came to this conclusion by looking at the posted graph... OK...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Sorry, what ?


A board in a big open room facing you is nothing like a cars interior.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Oh... you've came to this conclusion by looking at the posted graph... OK...


That holds true with every other driver


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> A board in a big open room facing you is nothing like a cars interior.


You're correct it's not... Please read my review a bit more...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

A driver know for having strong mid bass. It shows on the graph and in the car.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion:
Did you ever contact Emilios ?
He offered to send some speakers for you to personally audition... correct ?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

That's a really nice smoothed graph...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> DDfusion:
> Did you ever contact Emilios ?
> He offered to send some speakers for you to personally audition... correct ?


I did not. I'm not ready to purchase anything yet. If I do it will be around tax time. I'm not going to bug him until then. Trying to go by Octave, they are a dealer


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> That's a really nice smoothed graph...


Smoothed or not. It shows midbass and its strong in car there.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Oh... you've came to this conclusion by looking at the posted graph... OK...


Are you saying the graphs are inaccurate? For some things you need to listen to the speaker, for others like what I'm talking about looking at FR is good enough. Assuming it is accurate, can you ask your friend Emilio to forward you distortion profiles of the speakers? I mean if they are selling it for $5K, the least they would have done is test it on the kippel.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> A board in a big open room facing you is nothing like a cars interior.


Yes, but a fr graph done by a manufacturer isn't done in a car

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Variables varibles.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Drivers that measure better in a room, (the way most speakers are tested), will eventually sound better once you tune them in the car.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Not always.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> I didn't start this thread and I didn't sell the Grandioso's to Jeremy. AND furthermore, I don't plan on selling many because of the price point, which means that I not spending all this time defending the Grandioso so I can eat.
> 
> And yes, I have organized and executed two comparison tests. So, I have experience with many speakers, including many that had all the build practices and "graphs" that made them the best sounding speakers ever, and yet, none of those seems to do all that well. I set these up in a controlled environment and did play them against several other speakers/brands and found them to be surprisingly good (only because I too am a skeptic by nature).
> 
> ...


let's be honest, I bring up the cost of these speakers in reference to the build, and in a conversation about engineering, and value regarding production casting vs. CNC machining, and you called me out on money.

I'm not scared of expensive speakers, and it's kind of funny that you'd try and make an argument from that, I mean are you that emotionally attached to this thread that an irrational argument transpires?

Let's be clear about it, your promotion of this brand conveniently coincided with your becoming a dealer for them, is this not easily proven through posts made here?

I don't care if your projected profits off of Grandioso sets is abysmal in reality or in theory, the line itself receives a huge amount of forum boner free market share, in the scheme of things here. Am I the forum policeman, out to force vendors to relay truth in advertising or some silly ****? Of COURSE NOT. But if I am stepped on for an opinion that is based on some truthy, realist projections I will return volley, and apply pressure, same as most here.

The facile nature of audio arguments, relies on repeatable measures, this silly turn of "it sounds better in the car, because it sounds not so good on the board" is ridiculous. Can it happen that off-axis response is smoother than the on-axis, well sure... but this spiel being made that poor DDfusion is hamstrung on, where the speakers RTA in-car is better than you're getting anechoic, or at least in a reasonable test environment, is poppycock.

Andy is trying to provide his perspective as an owner, a mass producer of top grade product. I respect that he's gone into it, seen for himself what the cost structures are, and makes the statement that it's likely no production speaker has a one-piece CNC machined basket, and from what I've seen it's just like the Grandioso, they are bits of multiples, and put together rather than milled from the billet, or foundry cast, tempers.

which means that Sinfoni isn't breaking new ground here.

the constant barrage of supernatural powers bestowed on these drivers, it should set off anyone's alarms of internet braggadocio, regardless of the member's standing and reputation.

I don't need to believe in the coming of the next or the new to be happy in this audio pursuit, but people who are easily led are finding it hard to hit the reality button when these products are bandied about.

I have now been accused of being even more things, in defense of specialness. In defense of profits. In defense of artistic interpretation, haha..


that one I threw out there to cloudy the water just a little, since it's clear some people have trouble going from the production to the reproduction, the art and the science, as it were.

I see people making their own, the claims by a marketing byline, "Sinfoni builds instruments" and I wonder where it was that they were turned, because the normal metrics of graphs and construction seem to dissipate into thin air, as if Sinfoni has created a dynamic that only their speakers can attain. 


Is this realistic? Is the claim, "Listen to your ears, Trust what you hear" not only unrepeatable, and therefore scientifically unreliable, but also tainted by perception bias and all those variables, those things this forum purports to deconstruct when discussing other speakers?

It means that the normal scope has been occluded, any interest in verifiable performance other than "listen to believe" is disregarded as anti-social behavior, it's been proposed that this forum is for like minds, haha...


well my mind is going berzerker on the skeptic meter, when I am challenged at every chance and repeatedly bashed for questioning the powers that be, that happen to have latched on the Sinfoni marketing drivel train and propel it into the nest eggs of unsuspecting folks who, are being fed a line of questionable import...


and that's okay!




I like to see this vehement defense mechanism actually expose the truth of it all, because a cursory glance at the responses in this thread indicate bias, and loads of it along with motive, and neatly falling into place, opportunity.

was that too high-brow, do I need to tone it down some? I don't know, this stuff just sort of rolls out on it's own...

it's like, automatic. I hope no one finds it less civil than the posts that accuse and insinuate, to my eye I think it's fair and balanced, on the whole....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> Not always.


Between FR and distortion graphs, you can say 'always'.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Why don't you head over to Octave... get some first hand listening time with some Sinfoni speakers. You might decide they are not for you and go ahead and look at other options... or... you might just like them.... don't know until you try....?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Me being a DD fanboy gets me crap on the SPL side everyday. I know what it's like to experance preformance others just don't understand. 
It's a bit different with DD since they have a long track record of greatness on multiple fronts. 
That's easy to fall back on. With Sinfoni they don't have much to go off of minus a price tag and great looks(mine are not visible).


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Why don't you head over to Octave... get some first hand listening time with some Sinfoni speakers. You might decide they are not for you and go ahead and look at other options... or... you might just like them.... don't know until you try....?


I'm working on it. Trying to convince the wife to let me run out on our year planned Disney trip isn't easy. I have to be smart about it lol


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Between FR and distortion graphs, you can say 'always'.


I misread. I thought you said sound better on a board. 
That is not the case. Depending on who sets up the board, axis, power on hand.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Me being a DD fanboy gets me crap on the SPL side everyday. I know what it's like to experance preformance others just don't understand.
> It's a bit different with DD since they have a long track record of greatness on multiple fronts.
> That's easy to fall back on. With Sinfoni they don't have much to go off of minus a price tag and great looks(mine are not visible).



OK... DD has a long track record of greatness... 

but Sinfoni does not...????

This comment is quite perplexing....


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

cajunner said:


> let's be honest, I bring up the cost of these speakers in reference to the build, and in a conversation about engineering, and value regarding production casting vs. CNC machining, and you called me out on money.
> 
> I'm not scared of expensive speakers, and it's kind of funny that you'd try and make an argument from that, I mean are you that emotionally attached to this thread that an irrational argument transpires?
> 
> ...


^^^Like anyone is going to read all of that. 

That part that jumped out while I skimmed it over:



cajunner said:


> Let's be clear about it, your promotion of this brand conveniently coincided with your becoming a dealer for them, is this not easily proven through posts made here?


No ****???? Really????? You mean I started supporting them AFTER I heard them first hand which also happened after I became a dealer, because up until that point there wasn't even a distributor in the US. You got me there. Way to go Sherlock!!!! :toff:


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Cajunner:

Of course the tag line.... " Car Audio Instruments...." is marketing....!

All companies engage in some form of marketing...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> OK... DD has a long track record of greatness...
> 
> but Sinfoni does not...????
> 
> This comment is quite perplexing....


I'm sure he's saying "Like Sinfoni, DD has a long history of greatness, which only owners can appreciate". Sinfoni's are in great company


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

I would go on the family trip. Get the speakers at a later point....which ever ones you decide on.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> OK... DD has a long track record of greatness...
> 
> but Sinfoni does not...????
> 
> This comment is quite perplexing....


Not that I have seen or heard. They might but I don't now of it. 
I know there is plenty of stuff that has done great things overseas that we are just now getting into here.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> I'm sure he's saying "Like Sinfoni, DD has a long history of greatness, which only owners can appreciate". Sinfoni's are in great company


Thanks but I'd like to have his thoughts... not you telling me what his thoughts are...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

1996blackmax said:


> I would go on the family trip. Get the speakers at a later point....which ever ones you decide on.


I'm not in a hurry. I tend to ponder on stuff for a long time before I make the call


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

1996blackmax said:


> I would go on the family trip. Get the speakers at a later point....which ever ones you decide on.


Agreed.... the family trip is much more important than anything on this forum...

Goodness this is a hobby...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Remember when PHD was the next best thing to come to the states? That didn't last long


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

6 days at Disney.. I'm going to want to run


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Not that I have seen or heard. They might but I don't now of it.
> I know there is plenty of stuff that has done great things overseas that we are just now getting into here.



The company has been around for roughly 20 years... it has been in the US on and off for the past 15 years... there are many individuals that have experience with the brand... 

But hey who needs experience... when you have graphs...


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Remember when PHD was the next best thing to come to the states? That didn't last long


Yes sir, I do remember PHD... I know the US Distributor that brought the brand here... 

The issue was not product quality.... The gentleman experienced various health issues... 

PHD has a current distributor.... he's very well known on this board...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> I'm working on it. Trying to convince the wife to let me run out on our year planned Disney trip isn't easy. I have to be smart about it lol


Don't do that. That would be kinda ****ty. Go after your trip

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Don't do that. That would be kinda ****ty. Go after your trip
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


We will be there for 6 days. I'm sure she will want a break sometime, maybe not lol.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Let's drop everything for a bit. Once you get the speakers installed, just do what I requested in post 332 and post your results. I don't need any measurements.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> We will be there for 6 days. I'm sure she will want a break sometime, maybe not lol.


Ohhhhh I thought you meant it was either go to Disney for 6 days, or go audition speakers lol. Maybe get in contact with russ and see if he's there at a time that works 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^Like anyone is going to read all of that.
> 
> That part that jumped out while I skimmed it over:
> 
> ...


Sinfoni has been around a while, and you've been selling drivers through this forum for YEARS... correct?

From a business standpoint, it makes sense that you'd not put an emphasis on a brand you didn't sell, so you got me there.



And that after you got the line, the support would coincide with forum monitoring, and skeptics would get their hat handed to them based on the professional opinion machine, we have seen moving through the gears here in this thread.


all that is a given, if one were to pursue profit, protecting their investment, obfuscating any disagreeable scientific analysis, and throwing shade on objective inquiry by using the much maligned offer to "come listen!" as if, that were the base line.


Trust my ears?


HA!


I am pretty sure I'd lose in a blind listening test of these Sinfoni vs. the random picks of say, the top 5 mentioned brands here in this forum.

Hard to imagine what those would be, but I would bet money that when pressed to pick a winner, Sinfoni would not be at the top of the list every time.

Peerless? Vifa, Silver Flute, Dayton? ScanSpeak, Dynaudio?

What I'm getting at, is not my inability to perceive great sound in practice, btw.

It's the variable nature of the human hearing mechanism, because I think most people, even those who listen to Grandioso every day, would not be able to effectively beat the odds either.

And you can throw out the blind listening test as bad science, I'll accept that.

But if you can't reliably identify your preferred brand, how much of this supposed superiority is based in artful deception, and how much is able to be proved as fact, or at least within a margin of error that indicates credibility?


sure, great sounding speakers. but great sounding speakers in a line-up of great sounding speakers?

I don't believe that Pepsi is the new Coke, and that's OKAY!


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Since you're such an advocate for using your ears, try what I suggested a page or so back. Listen to a track on your 2ch at home, or on decent cans, then listen in a car running the Sinfonis. Set the network and TA, but don't eq. See if you can pick a difference. See if you can pick five. I'll give you a spoiler.
> 
> If you can *really* hear the difference, both the 2ch and headphones will sound *more tonally accurate*. That's because the bigger the room you listen in, the less effect it has on what you hear. It still has an effect, but much less. For instance early reflections are 90% of what you hear in a car, but only ~40% in a normal sized room. So the $200 headphones or the decent (with good measurements) and great sounding $800 speakers will sound more accurate than $500-5K speakers in the car.
> 
> ...



I don't mind conducting your little session... but why ???

You've already stated the outcome... It's a no win situation... If I hear a difference... Then I'm "hearing" a preconceived notion of my own making....

So how about this... As I've stated earlier... ANYONE that wants to have a listening session once my car is complete... Please come on down to Music City USA... I'll be happy to oblige...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Do it for yourself. If you don't want to report the result it's fine.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm not surprised that the trust your ears sinfoni owners swept Andy's comment under the rug.

If it measures like crap on axis, it is crap. Well, the Sinfoni speaker in the graph measures pretty crappy.


Again, do not compare a musical instrument to a speaker. They are not comparable. Period. A musical instrument makes music. A speaker reproduces music.

The only time a speaker can be legitimately called an instrument is when it is attached directly to a SINGLE instrument for the purpose of amplification. This NEVER applies in a car.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm not surprised that the trust your ears sinfoni owners swept Andy's comment under the rug.
> 
> If it measures like crap on axis, it is crap. Well, the Sinfoni speaker in the graph measures pretty crappy.
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. Anyone have an actual rebuttal to the whole bad measurement usually = bad speaker and why the sinfoni graphs look more like an ekg reading instead of a frequency response graph?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Do it for yourself. If you don't want to report the result it's fine.


I'm not going to perform some cocken bull test...



> If you think the car sounds as good or better (the car will have more bass, granted), but we are talking tonal accuracy, so if you feel the car sounds as good or better, then you're not really hearing a difference.


Why should I when you have already decided what the outcome will be... !


Now, As I've stated numerous times....if ANYONE WANTS TO LISTEN TO MY CAR ONCE IT'S COMPLETE.... YOU ARE WELCOME TO DO SO....

Form your OWN opinions..... Hey, if the graphs look like crap... then my car will sound like crap... and I'll be two things:

The biggest CHUMP od DIYMA,
A bold faced liar since I wrote the review.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Anyone have an actual rebuttal to the whole bad measurement usually = bad speaker and why the sinfoni graphs look more like an ekg reading instead of a frequency response graph?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I do have an answer for you...
The graphs that Sinfoni uses are real graphs... real measurements... not smoothed over and massaged to "look" fantastic on paper...

just my .02 cents worth


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Scan and audio frog don't smooth their graphs.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Is that so... ??

Well I've learned something today...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Neither does morel. Accouton, peerless, vifa, satori and sb seem very lightly smoothed, this is all just looking from my phone in 2 minutes 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Neither does morel. Accouton, peerless, vifa, satori and sb seem very lightly smoothed, this is all just looking from my phone in 2 minutes
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


So you did your detective work in 2 minutes on your cell phone and determined that all these companies do not smooth FR...

You sir are amazingly efficient !


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## Duncanbullet (Sep 19, 2013)

What about Silver Flutes smoothing, i dont see any MAJOR smoothing, do you guys?...


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

none sir none.....


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Neither does morel. Accouton, peerless, vifa, satori and sb seem very lightly smoothed, this is all just looking from my phone in 2 minutes
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Did you look for the disclosure... FR has been smoothed, for your pleasure....


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## Duncanbullet (Sep 19, 2013)

Black = With smoothing 
Green = Reality


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Please guys... whether it's Sinfoni, Scan Speak, AudioFrog.... whatever... please listen before you form an opinion... 

This is not a difficult concept... at least I don't think so.... 

Hands on experience is worth its weight in gold and the ONLY way to KNOW if you like something or you do NOT like something...

Guys there are numerous great mobile audio dealers throughout the US... go to the Brick and Mortar business' and look at the product.... pick them up... and listen to them....

Then and ONLY then will you be a well informed consumer...

It really is that simple...


Listen guys, I've been doing car audio for a LONG time... I know many brands inside and out... Sinfoni included... other than Emilios... I would say I know more about the product line than most anyone in the US...

I love engaging in fruitful debate... I do not like to argue... BUT I WILL.... 
I'm not saying any of this to puff myself up... just stating fact... 

My main purpose is and will always be to help and hopefully guide those that might need advice...

That's all.... Thanks


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Did you look for the disclosure... FR has been smoothed, for your pleasure....


which ones? looking on my phone, all of the ones listed seemed to be smoothed by a small margin. maybe 24th an octave.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

no, no..

it appears the skeptics have carried the motion, the adage "if it measures well, it sounds well" is the stick in the proverbial mud, no amount of smoothing will release it, the consequences of which, mean that speakers that do not measure well cannot enter the top tier of speaker echelons, the skeptics have carried the day...


I know that there have been spurious reports of speakers that didn't measure well, actually sounding okay or "surprising" to say the most, not the least, because who wants to read the least, let's hear it for the top tier of drivers that not only won their right in the upper echelons but have the paper to prove it, it's a lineage you see and the bloodlines of champions can be found on octave to octave inspections, I cannot understand how one might simply forgo the obvious and skip the crucial measurement step in evaluations, I tell you all if the graph won't slick, the driver isn't fit!

Let's be done with these silly subjective reports and gather up our rosebuds and plant in a field that isn't loaded with aphorisms and charismatic pomp and shy on circumstance, we are all just a little too smart to fall for the call of the hullabaloo, the instruments that matter are those that divide the poor performing wannabe huckster from the straight and true, let this be a lesson to the hawkers of the white van sound, we're not relying on the excellent orator skill sets, the superimposition of calculated value, it's not enough that we stamp out the invasive and pernicious profiteers but that we build a wall...


or at least apply the same criteria in testing to the lot of them, all that claim significant superiority must also present the proof, no paper validation, no vendor parking, let's get together on this, we must create a united front for the shysters, the hucksters and the relatively relative on the scales that we will not be separated from reality and shown a template to proselytize, we will not succumb to brainwashers of any fold and formula, eject, reject, commit their brazen act of salesmanship to the waters for cleansing...


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Please come on down to Music City USA... I'll be happy to oblige...


I'd like to hear. Maybe at a competition?


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2015)

Sir, PM me ... we can work out a time and place.... heck we live in the same city


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Duncanbullet said:


> Black = With smoothing
> Green = Reality


depends on the amount of smoothing


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Please guys... whether it's Sinfoni, Scan Speak, AudioFrog.... whatever... please listen before you form an opinion...
> 
> This is not a difficult concept... at least I don't think so....
> 
> ...


It really is not that simple. Ears are easily fooled. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Again, if the on axis frequency response is bad, the speaker is not good. 


Not to knock on Jerry, but in his speaker test, there was a track where the chair moved. In his test, only 2 of the speakers were said to have reproduced that. But, the cheap headphones that came with my ipod can also reproduce that clearly. What does that say about the reliability of people's ears?

Another example, a well know sound mixer and previous modex national champion told me a story about a study he was asked to do. Using high end headphones, they were supposed to listen for differences between different audio codecs. He ended up walking out on the test because he couldn't hear any differences. Many other well respected people were involved in the test, and heard clear differences. This was not a blind test, listeners knew when the switch was occuring. It was later revealed that there was no switching going on at all, and the signal had never changed, just momentarily been interupted.

Now, it's possible that you like some sort of coloration, and that's why the speakers sound good to you. But, it's important to be up front about that. I look for accuracy in a speaker. And ears (no matter whose they are) are not accurate enough to tell me that. Measurements, when done properly, can. The cars that have focused on being accurate to the source have always been the best I have heard.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> It really is not that simple. Ears are easily fooled. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Again, if the on axis frequency response is bad, the speaker is not good.
> 
> 
> Not to knock on Jerry, but in his speaker test, there was a track where the chair moved. In his test, only 2 of the speakers were said to have reproduced that. But, the cheap headphones that came with my ipod can also reproduce that clearly. What does that say about the reliability of people's ears?
> ...


actually, i was also able to hear that on my old computer speakers, my new speakers, and on my phone after DDfusion pointed out that you can hear it easily


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Not to knock on Jerry, but in his speaker test, there was a track where the chair moved. In his test, only 2 of the speakers were said to have reproduced that. But, the cheap headphones that came with my ipod can also reproduce that clearly. What does that say about the reliability of people's ears?


So, your cheap headphones have a passband identical to the one used in the test??? I'd get some new headphones if I were you.

This is a perfect example of taking something out of context and misapplying the findings and dismissing the findings because of it. 

I bet if I had played the speakers from 20hz to 20khz or paired with a tweeter, we would have heard it easier also.



SkizeR said:


> actually, i was also able to hear that on my old computer speakers, my new speakers, and on my phone after DDfusion pointed out that you can hear it easily


^^See above


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Pass band has nothing to do with it if all speakers in the test were crossed over the same. 

The claim is that only two speakers in the test could resolve it. That means it can be resolved in that passband, no need to play them 20-20000, or add tweeters. 

The fact is some cheap garbage headphones can reproduce the same sound. Put the same passband as you used in testing and I'd bet my car they would still resolve it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> So, your cheap headphones have a passband identical to the one used in the test??? I'd get some new headphones if I were you.
> 
> This is a perfect example of taking something out of context and misapplying the findings and dismissing the findings because of it.
> 
> ...


not sure what that has to do with it but my computer set up plays from 30-20k. not saying your testing was bad, i actually look up to it. but i just dont see how that happened


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

OMG people...get over it already.

Why is there such an inane desire to tear down this speaker manufacturer? All you people sitting behind your computers throwing grenades trying to discredit what is IMO the best speaker i have ever heard. Go out and listen to the ****ing thing and then come back and throw grenades if you want because you like X speaker better...i an totally cool with that.

But to sit there and attack SOMETHING YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD for random IRRELEVANT graphs and cnc tolerance levels is retarded. PERIOD.

No offense to Andy, but i bet if he was the designer you guys would be climbing over each other to suck its d&$K.

This is a great speaker and instead of trying to out douche each other, maybe an effort should be made to go listen to it.

Sorry...my tolerance for ignorance in this thread ran out.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Pass band has nothing to do with it if all speakers in the test were crossed over the same.
> 
> The claim is that only two speakers in the test could resolve it. That means it can be resolved in that passband, no need to play them 20-20000, or add tweeters.
> 
> The fact is some cheap garbage headphones can reproduce the same sound. Put the same passband as you used in testing and I'd bet my car they would still resolve it.





SkizeR said:


> not sure what that has to do with it but my computer set up plays from 30-20k. not saying your testing was bad, i actually look up to it. but i just dont see how that happened


I be no clue what all this has to do with sinfoni speakers but the fact is, 2 played the creek so it was easily audible in the passband that the test was conducted. I was not a dealer and had to reason to make this up and it was consistent with all the BLIND listeners. The rest didn't. 

What more do you want from me???


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

The only ignorance is acting like measurements don't matter. The on axis response while not the worst, is not near as good as other similarly priced speakers, or even lower priced speakers. If the on axis response is bad, then the speaker is not a great speaker. Period. If you like what your hearing, your either eq'ing out the problems, or like the sound of the problems. But this speaker has clear and irrefutable issues with its frequency response.

Fwiw, it's not alone. All speakers have some sort of issue with frequency response. This one just has more than other comparable speakers.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> I be no clue what all this has to do with sinfoni speakers but the fact is, 2 played the creek so it was easily audible in the passband that the test was conducted. I was not a dealer and had to reason to make this up and it was consistent with all the BLIND listeners. The rest didn't.
> 
> What more do you want from me???


Jerry, let me be clear. I'm not knocking your testing, not at all. But, I am pointing out that the ears that participated in the test made a claim that only 2 speakers could resolve something that numerous other people have heard on far inferior equipment. Again, not a knock on your shootout, but an example of how un-reliable ears can be.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Jerry, let me be clear. I'm not knocking your testing, not at all. But, I am pointing out that the ears that participated in the test made a claim that only 2 speakers could resolve something that numerous other people have heard on far inferior equipment. Again, not a knock on your shootout, but an example of how un-reliable ears can be.


No it is not.....how can I be more clear.....this wasn't a full range test. The speakers were given a limited passband. Just because other cheap speakers can reproduce it playing FULL RANGE, doesn't prove anything.

The ears were perfectly reliable in the test.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

And here is the stupid graph you all have been clamoring for, just not sure what this proves or disproves but here you go!!!!!

Sinfoni Maestoso tweeters in my car, sail panels, ZERO EQ, 1/6 octave smoothing.....









And to cajunner.....No, I didn't pay MSRP for them


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The only ignorance is acting like measurements don't matter. The on axis response while not the worst, is not near as good as other similarly priced speakers, or even lower priced speakers. If the on axis response is bad, then the speaker is not a great speaker. Period. If you like what your hearing, your either eq'ing out the problems, or like the sound of the problems. But this speaker has clear and irrefutable issues with its frequency response.
> 
> Fwiw, it's not alone. All speakers have some sort of issue with frequency response. This one just has more than other comparable speakers.


Not Period...not period by the longest of shots. Listen to the speaker and stop looking at the graphs...Period.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

anyone in the NY tristate area have these or have them at a shop to demo? i was going to buy some from jerry but other things have come up and cant afford to spend money right now. also minisq, how far are you from killington? ill be there in about a month. maybe we can meet up and i can check them out


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## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

I love the sound my Maestoso produced, with no concerns of its graphs. Ultimately, I am in for pure enjoyment of what I hear. Not what a piece of paper says it should sound like.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> anyone in the NY tristate area have these or have them at a shop to demo? i was going to buy some from jerry but other things have come up and cant afford to spend money right now. also minisq, how far are you from killington? ill be there in about a month. maybe we can meet up and i can check them out


I am headed to Killington this weekend for Brewfest...come on up

i work at Okemo as you know...so i'm about 30 minutes from Killington. Would love to meet up at either place and let you hear these.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

also, were not saying it should sound like anything based on a graph. but its obvious that i certainly wouldnt chose their speakers due to how many issues it has up front


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> I am headed to Killington this weekend for Brewfest...come on up
> 
> i work at Okemo as you know...so i'm about 30 minutes from Killington. Would love to meet up at either place and let you hear these.


this weekend im heading to H2o in ocean city i think :/ (if anyone else here is going, let me know).. but yeah i remember you telling me. ill definitely give you a shout when im heading up


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> anyone in the NY tristate area have these or have them at a shop to demo? i was going to buy some from jerry but other things have come up and cant afford to spend money right now. also minisq, how far are you from killington? ill be there in about a month. maybe we can meet up and i can check them out


There are couple in NJ. 
Joe Bruno Designs
And
Sound Auto


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> There are couple in NJ.
> Joe Bruno Designs
> And
> Sound Auto


ahh nice. im going to look them up and send some emails to see if they have a demo board, or an install coming up with them soon


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> also, were not saying it should sound like anything based on a graph. but its obvious that i certainly wouldnt chose their speakers due to how many issues it has up front


Exactly this. The speakers need more work to correct their flaws than one that measures better. 

Jerry, I'm on my phone so I'm not going to dig for the thread, but remind me again the passband, and I'll retest (and as said, I'll bet my car it will be audible on ANY speaker I have on hand that can produce midrange frequencies).


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> No offense to Andy, but i bet if he was the designer you guys would be climbing over each other to suck its d&$K.


No, they wouldn't... unless the price fell down to a reasonable level.

These are speakers marketed as exotic with exotic price tags. The cost of the top end set is more than some people are paying for a respectable used car. 

It's comparable to exotic cars. People don't go pay a quarter million dollars for a brand new Ferrari just for its performance, when you can go find the same level of performance in a new Z06 for a fraction of the price. 

The hand stitching, painstaking attention to detail, panels gaps all +/-.005", or the "passion" put into it definitely justifies the cars as a high end product, just like the cnc'd baskets and tweeter housings qualify the Sinfoni speakers as high end, but those things don't yield any clear advantage from a performance viewpoint.

This thread is comparable to a Ferrari owner doing a review of his car's performance and claiming it's the best ever and how you won't find anything better for the price. We all know that's not true and some people are going to put that claim under great scrutiny, but the subjective perspective of the Ferrari owner isn't going to change and all he's doing is getting butthurt that nobody is believing him.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

^And end thread right there.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Ferraris and other exotics have a tendency to fall apart. The money is in the materials not the build quality.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Yes, all of this is true for a CNC vs. a casting. I have yet to see a speaker basket that's a complete CNC from a block of billet aluminum. Maybe someone will do it. Most of the ones I see are a bunch of rings and spokes, attached with fasteners or just rings and standoffs attached with fasteners.
> 
> In any case, and the final part of my tirade was that the basket has almost NO effect on the sound of the speaker but it has a big effect on the perceived value because it provides the appearance of close tolerances and precision.
> 
> ...


There are probably ten or twenty people in the world who have this much experience in car audio. Listen to Andy.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm not surprised that the trust your ears sinfoni owners swept Andy's comment under the rug.
> 
> If it measures like crap on axis, it is crap. Well, the Sinfoni speaker in the graph measures pretty crappy.
> 
> ...


I'm going to make one more statement here and then I'm out. 

I have heard these things and I can tell you for sure that they don't sound like the graph. They're nice sounding speakers. 

The performance of speakers CAN BE and OFTEN IS completely characterized by measurements, but not by ONE measurement. 

Someone else asked me in a FB chat about this same subject last night. One look at the graph tells me that the measurement technique is problematic. The dip at 80 Hz or so doesn't exist in the speaker's frequency response. Dips and peaks in the response are caused by cones that change shape when they move at various frequencies. At frequencies close to the low frequency roll off, speakers are pistonic. Look at EVERY OTHER FREQUENCY RESPONSE GRAPH (including the Hertz graph posted above) and you'll see that at low frequencies, the response is smooth and the peaks and dips start a few octaves above resonance and become more pronounced at high frequencies. Those are cone modes. In many speakers, you'll see a high frequency peak that's caused by the dust cap. Ideally, that peak is either eliminated by removing the dust cap or changing its mass or attachment method or it's pushed to a frequency outside the intended passband so it can be eliminated by the crossover.

We choose the second of those options for our speakers because it yields FLATTER response in the passband below the peak. That's a function of a stiff cone and a stiff and light dustcap. 

If I had to speculate, I'd say that the dip that exists at about 80Hz in the measured frequency response graph is a measurement artifact. It's EITHER a function of measurement baffle size or a ROOM MODE or a COMBINATION of the two. There's no other explanation. It's NOT the response of the speaker unless something is terribly wrong and that would show up in listening tests.

Speakers can be designed for use in a car, but narrow band peaks and dips are NOT engineered into a speaker for use in a car. No way. Never. 

A speaker that measures well (so long as the measurements are made correctly) sound good. Speakers that don't measure well don't sound good.

Whether you prefer a speaker that measures poorly or that measures well has no bearing on the quality of the design. 

Finally, the graphs here are of an OEM $3 speaker in the door of a Mini Cooper. The first one (that doesn't suck) is a near field measurement. The one that does suck is the same speaker, driven by the same stimulus signal measured with the mic in the driver's seat. Clearly, making an RTA measurement of the speaker in the car is no measure of speaker quality and makes determining the quality of the speaker impossible. That's why speakers are measured in anechoic chambers or with gated measurements. It's a matter of eliminating all other variables--the car is a huge variable.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Thanks Andy. 
You said they sounded good but how good? Where does the cost to preformance ratio sit?

I know you said you where done but give us one more


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think it's fair for Andy to answer that question, especially in public.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Why not? It's one audiophile to another. He isn't a vender. He isn't telling me to buy AF


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy, why would Sinfoni put out the graphs that had issues due to room modes, baffle issues? Specially if that is not how the speaker behaves. Also is it possible that the speaker is designed to have some sort of pre eq built in so that they sound better out of the box vs brand X that is more flatline?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

DDfusion said:


> Thanks Andy.
> You said they sounded good but how good? Where does the cost to preformance ratio sit?
> 
> I know you said you where done but give us one more


I heard them in a dealer's sound board next to a bunch of other speakers and next to our GS62 (coaxial) and against a set of home speakers I built with our gear. Those have almost ruler flat response and a distortion curve that's nearly inaudible. That's not an audition that lends itself to a good understanding of the merits of the speakers that were installed in the board. My home speakers absolutely destroyed everything else in the room from a technical standpoint and an evaluation perspective that favors accuracy. Not every listener agreed. Some liked the sound of other speakers in the room better. That's preference and it's also subject to the room's influence. My home speakers sounded better in their room than their sound boards. 

So, what I can say with at least some certainty is that the speakers don't sound like the graph at low frequencies. 

SQNUT, No one who has a clue about speaker design is putting midrange wiggles and the attendant distortion into the curve in the hopes of un-EQing the in car response. Broad changes in the shape of the curve, yes. 

We make GB60s have a particular bass response because IN THE CAR they are always mounted in a corner somewhere. That boosts bass. This arrangement makes tuning the subwoofer to midbass transition much easier and the lower Q (when compared to other speakers designed to make a lot of midbass on the sound board) reduces distortion. People who make "widebanders" try to eliminate the peak at high frequencies in the on axis response. You can tilt the midrange and high frequency response downward a bit by adding inductance to the coil (single layer vs. two layers vs. 4 layers. These are BROAD adjustments.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

And...for the record, I'm not here bashing anyone's gear. As I always do, I'm just trying to provide some objective information about how speakers are designed and built and how their performance is (or should be) characterized both objectively and subjectively.

There are two kinds of "quality" with every product. For engineers, "quality" means "meets spec consistently". For purchasers, "quality" means "meets consumer expectations". The ideal is to write a spec that causes engineering quality to meet consumer expectations. The job of a product manager is to understand WHICH consumers' expectations are the most important ones. 

This why a Toyota Camry doesn't look like a Ferrari.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So basically they are good but not every one thought they won the secession. 
The sound nothing like the graph shows, so they might have messed up the measuring.

I think that's what I'm understanding, so to form my opinion I have to weigh the cost vs performance against my first choice which I love, the Mille.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> SQNUT, No one who has a clue about speaker design is putting midrange wiggles and the attendant distortion into the curve in the hopes of un-EQing the in car response. Broad changes in the shape of the curve, yes.
> 
> We make GB60s have a particular bass response because IN THE CAR they are always mounted in a corner somewhere. That boosts bass. This arrangement makes tuning the subwoofer to midbass transition much easier and the lower Q (when compared to other speakers designed to make a lit of midbass on the sound board) reduces distortion. People who make "widebanders" try to eliminate the peak at high frequencies in the on axis response. You can tilt the midrange and high frequency response downward a bit by adding inductance to the coil (single layer vs. two layers vs. 4 layers. These are BROAD adjustments.


I'm decent with tuning, but not an engineer. Just trying to eliminate all possible reasons why the owners are going nuts over it. Assuming that was the intention, 60-100 hz mirrors the way things are normally set. 160 is hot though, maybe too fat a sound. Again, 200-300 makes sense, even the dip at 400 although 500 is too low and beyond this its more umm.. the dip from 2-4 also makes sense. Of course, if achieving this destroys the distortion profile, then that is going to be audible. 

Again I'm just trying to understand why folks are going nuts over the product.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> this weekend im heading to H2o in ocean city i think :/ (if anyone else here is going, let me know).. but yeah i remember you telling me. ill definitely give you a shout when im heading up


Well I live in 08332 so you can Google the distance from there to me, and you are always welcomed to hear my set.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> ahh nice. im going to look them up and send some emails to see if they have a demo board, or an install coming up with them soon


Joe Bruno Design / my wife's Subaru Legacy.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Coppertone said:


> Well I live in 08332 so you can Google the distance from there to me, and you are always welcomed to hear my set.


depending on who i ride up with, i may take you up on that


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

No problem as you are always welcomed in my home.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2015)

Coppertone said:


> No problem as you are always welcomed in my home.


Well done sir, very good of you to offer such....!




> depending on who i ride up with, i may take you up on that


SkiZeR:

I'm very happy you might have the opportunity to get some first hand experience with the Sinfoni product... Truly the best way to form an opinion...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Well done sir, very good of you to offer such....!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i was going to just buy some from jerry, but other things came up. im now not buying any more audio stuff and have to save all of my money. im planning on buying a small bus or large van and go cross country with some friends next winter to snowboard all around the US. but yes i am pretty excited actually. Coppertone, did you tune the system yet?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> i was going to just buy some from jerry, but other things came up. im now not buying any more audio stuff and have to save all of my money. im planning on buying a small bus or large van and go cross country with some friends next winter to snowboard all around the US. but yes i am pretty excited actually. Coppertone, did you tune the system yet?


My friends son is doing that with his girlfriend...they started a gofundme page.

Lucas Magoon Wants to Live That RV Life

wait for the reality TV show to follow


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> My friends son is doing that with his girlfriend...they started a gofundme page.
> 
> Lucas Magoon Wants to Live That RV Life
> 
> wait for the reality TV show to follow


wait wait wait... you know lucas?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> wait wait wait... you know lucas?


i've met him, but i don't know him...i went to school with his mother Jeannie.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> i've met him, but i don't know him...i went to school with his mother Jeannie.


i dont think anything came out of his go fund me campaign. he used to be the "the man" in snowboarding for years until his coma and crazy drug use. he fell off for a bit, but hes making a comeback. hes in a big budget snowboard film this year by snowboarder mag.. way off topic, lol

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/thesnowboardermoviesfd/138928115


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ok, so coppertone and minisq cars i may be able to listen to soon. do you guys have the system completely finished and tuned?


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## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

I believe Ben's car would not have left Joe's shop without at least a mild tune. Knowing Ben though, it is dialed in already.

I appreciate Andy's input on this subject. I am certain his custom ruler flat towers sound amazing also, I would enjoy hearing those myself.

With that in mind even a great speaker like any of the Sinfoni line up might have an issue holding its own from a sound board VS a meticulously designed and tuned set of tower enclosures. That said, I believe that the statements made about some preferring the sound of his home drivers and some preffering the sound from the sound board running Sinfoni drivers speaks massive volumes to the capabilities of Sinfoni speakers.

Andy says there is a problem with the graph.. Perhaps the entire graph is no good for what ever reason. I have to wonder if the guy loading pictures to the website had a clue of what that graph really represents. Most engineers and speaker designers are not the ones designing what gets put on the website. Maybe it was not entended to be loaded. Perhaps it was overlooked. The bottom line is those graphs that have been disputed over and over again are not the results you hear from these speakers. I hope everyone gets a chance to do an audition that wants to truely know how Sinfoni speakers sound.

Thanks again to Andy for his honest opinion.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I guess if we were actually trying to place Sinfoni into a scale, instead of everyone who has heard them putting them on the very top in performance, (besides Andy Wehmeyer, who did not) at least from the Maeostoso on up, that would serve to better describe the speakers for those who cannot just "come listen" upon request.

And I realize it's pretty hard to produce a baseline that many of us here have a working approximation, or baseline, of several popular speakers, but some parallels seem to stand out here.

If we can attribute certain sonic characteristics to single-layer carbon fiber cones, and kevlar "crack" that the sandwich speakers, help to tame then I believe we could fit the Sinfoni models into various slots, where they are honestly evaluated by impersonal, cold meter readings against those popular in the style, as they do not seem to have anything evolutionary or without peer, at least in their construction details.

I believe we have begun the process of de-mystifying the "instruments" to their right place in the audio panorama, thanks to those who can succinctly negate the marketing with good intel.

And that too, is okay!


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

It's tuned and ready for basic casual listening lol.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Coppertone said:


> It's tuned and ready for basic casual listening lol.


i looked on the map before and you seem fairly close to ocean city. then i just now decided to see how far exactly via getting directions. how the hell is it a 3 hour drive from you to ocean city but only 4 hours and twenty minutes from me?


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Welcome to New Jersy where NOTHING makes sense lol...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Coppertone said:


> Welcome to New Jersy where NOTHING makes sense lol...


no really.. ocean city is like 40 miles in a straight line away from you. how the hell does it take 3 hours for that drive


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

It does when there's traffic and believe you me if there's an accident, you're done for. People say when you enter South Jersey fill up asap to save yourself lol.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

To say that the site has a bad graph and misinformed specs is an understatement. 

It really should be fixed. Other than all 5 of us in this forum what else will customers go by? 

I'll tell you, I'm fairly new on here but graphs, specs, and site literature trumps the " here drink this **** approach". 

The graphs and specs, I honestly just forgot about, knew they couldn't be right and I'm sure the speakers sound good.

That said, I left the site with visions of Michelangelo dressed in his best attire, palette in one hand and self made filbert in the other staring in disgust at a table full of sound engineers at the SOA table.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I heard them in a dealer's sound board next to a bunch of other speakers and next to our GS62 (coaxial) and against a set of home speakers I built with our gear. Those have almost ruler flat response and a distortion curve that's nearly inaudible. That's not an audition that lends itself to a good understanding of the merits of the speakers that were installed in the board. My home speakers absolutely destroyed everything else in the room from a technical standpoint and an evaluation perspective that favors accuracy. Not every listener agreed. Some liked the sound of other speakers in the room better. That's preference and it's also subject to the room's influence. My home speakers sounded better in their room than their sound boards.
> 
> ...


Andy, were they the curved wood monitors you posted few months ago?
Any plan to distribute them?


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SQ_TSX said:


> I'm not going to perform some cocken bull test...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just finished reading everything and I only have one thing to say 



You should have listened to me and kept your *Utopia Be* set...  



Focal is a love and hate thing but I don't think I've seen such drama about a brand other than Linear Power. 

Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Just finished reading everything and I only have one thing to say
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you had to revive it didnt you? lol


----------



## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

Dangit Kelvin! lol

Jeremy's install is complete and he is very satisfied with the result..


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> you had to revive it didnt you? lol


I was reading one page a week because there was a lot of... "good info"... inside :laugh:

Took me a really long time... really lol 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

deeppinkdiver said:


> Dangit Kelvin! lol
> 
> Jeremy's install is complete and he is very satisfied with the result..


I'm sure he's in heaven right now with a system that sounds as good as it looks :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?


Kinda obvious, isn`t it.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?


Andy,

I'm don't really understand your seeming aggression toward the Sinfoni brand. What exactly points you to believe that the product offering is of poor quality? 

Is it simply a case of attempting to snuff out competition in a niche market.... to me, that seems pretty obvious.... 

I can speak for ME... no one else.... I chose Sinfoni because of my previous experience with the brand. In my eyes the brand has always offered excellent quality. Do they offer the lowest price points... no... they never claimed to... 

Now Andy I have no doubt that AF items are very nice. You've put a ton of work into each item. Congrats ! I can greatly appreciate that vision and hard work. But to continually come out to slam another brand... that takes a very small person in my eyes to do that.... 

Well.. I'm putting g on the flame suit....


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

I am NOT trying to down Sinfoni as I am sure that it is very good sounding equipment based on your opinion and others opinion, but I believe that you are seriously misunderstanding or miscontruing AW's statement, which DOES stand by itself-- 

Simply put, preference is defined by subjective standards and evidence by definition MUST be verifiable by objective standards not subjective opinions. 

At least that is how I understood his statement.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

seafish said:


> I am NOT trying to down Sinfoni as I am sure that it is very good sounding equipment based on your opinion and others opinion, but I believe that you are seriously misunderstanding or miscontruing AW's statement, which DOES stand by itself--
> 
> Simply put, preference is defined by subjective standards and evidence by definition MUST be verifiable by objective standards not subjective opinions.
> 
> At least that is how I understood his statement.


Was just thinking the same thing 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SQ_TSX said:


> Andy,
> 
> I'm don't really understand your seeming aggression toward the Sinfoni brand. What exactly points you to believe that the product offering is of poor quality?
> 
> ...


Jeremy, unless you know something that I don`t I don`t see his post that way.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't see it either.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Perception of quality differ from person to person.
In many instances it`s only perception that leads us to form an opinion.
When I read something that portray something as the best thing since toilet paper I`m a bit sceptical, as it usually driven by some kind of agenda.
Technology is like art, not always possible to measure. 
It`s not how fast you can play musical instrument or get your partner to get an orgasm
It`s what you make others feel while you doing so. 

Engineering without soul it`s just that- engineering. It seems that Sinfoni got some to believe in their soul. 
On a side note I`d love to see independant side to side comparison of Sinfoni vs something else. AF for example.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?


No, that's not possible on this forum. The thirst for that kool-aid is insatiable.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

anything less than outright admiration, adulation, and appreciation of the Sinfoni brand is to be frowned upon in this thread.

any instances of questioning, be it harmless information gathering or outright skepticism, should not be attempted.

all opinions must adhere to congratulatory and superfluous natures for consideration, thank you.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

^^^^^ so true ^^^^^^


Sinphony = someone posting a rediculious rude picture to try to make you look stupid like I've seen on other threads . Maybe a tired person, maybe , someone high, maybe just pretty little puppy, but I sure know where my eggs are cooked on Saturday morning. Let's fry.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

Guys, what I'm saying is that Sinfoni produces a quality product. It does seem to me that others are implying it is not....

It's just that simple....


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> ^^^^^ so true ^^^^^^
> 
> 
> Sinphony = someone posting a rediculious rude picture to try to make you look stupid like I've seen on other threads . Maybe a tired person, maybe , someone high, maybe just pretty little puppy, but I sure know where my eggs are cooked on Saturday morning. Let's fry.


LOL. .. 
I have no idea what you just said.....


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Guys, what I'm saying is that Sinfoni produces a quality product. It does seem to me that others are implying it is not....
> 
> It's just that simple....


I think we're just busting people's balls that's all it's kind of a give-and-take thing lately I mean I'm sure some people actually mean to be malicious and rude but I would never let that kind of stuff actually bother me I'm sure it is really good stuff


----------



## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Perception of quality differ from person to person.
> In many instances it`s only perception that leads us to form an opinion.
> When I read something that portray something as the best thing since toilet paper I`m a bit sceptical, as it usually driven by some kind of agenda.
> Technology is like art, not always possible to measure.
> ...


Victor, 

You know me pretty well.... do you feel I have a hidden agenda ?


----------



## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> I think we're just busting people's balls that's all it's kind of a give-and-take thing lately I mean I'm sure some people actually mean to be malicious and rude but I would never let that kind of stuff actually bother me I'm sure it is really good stuff


Perfectly understood sir... I'm all for conversation and discussion of all things Mobile audio related. .. it's good for the forum as well as the hobby... but when someone posts their thoughts and impressions... then basically is told that they must be trying to "sell" something.... or have hidden motives.... I don't take well to that... 

My goal was to simply share my enthusiasm and impressions with the members of this forum... something we uses to do frequently. 

If certain members don't like the brand... that's fine... no worries...


----------



## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

subwoofery said:


> Just finished reading everything and I only have one thing to say
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Kelvin, 

I did like the Be set... always been impressed with the Focal brand... great equipment. 

But I'm pretty happy with my Sinfoni... ?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I just think they should have stuck to amps. Or at least not charge 5k or whatever it is for a set that is clearly less than perfect (as to what's obtainable)

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> I just think they should have stuck to amps. Or at least not charge 5k or whatever it is for a set that is clearly less than perfect (as to what's obtainable)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



Why is that ?
I've been quite impressed with even the entry level speakers... 

Heck I liked the old S Series speakers.... that s100m midrange was awesome.

Hey guys, anyone that wants to listen to my car.... you are welcome to do so. . I'll be happy to do it... let your ears make up your mind....

Humm. ... Think I might coin that phrase.... LOL


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Why is that ?
> I've been quite impressed with even the entry level speakers...
> 
> Heck I liked the old S Series speakers.... that s100m midrange was awesome.
> ...


Well as few things. After i talked to a couple people on the whole sinfoni debate, 1 thing is clear. They are not speaker "designers". At first I thought they just had a god awful response and they shouldnt even be considered especially for the price point. Then when I did more digging and questioning, I learned some things. The dip at 80 and 400hz in their published charts theoretically couldn't exist. That tells me when it comes to measuring a speaker they're not even positive on what they're doing, let alone designing the speaker itself. So knowing the response of said speaker is a crap shoot. Idk about you, but i like to know what im buying before i spend thousands of dollars. which brings me to my next point which was pointed out by three different people to me (and explained in detail why it's a no no by one). Who the hell designs a balls to the wall set of speakers that use a cupped spider? That just says the whole design is compromised. No respectable speaker designer would ever use a cupped design if they were starting from scratch and were making a driver that lives up to its high price tag. Then comes the tweeter. A balls to the wall two way set, but the tweeter that can't even be crossed lower than 3k (or maybe lower with a steep slope)? Considering a 6.5 starts beaming at around 2000hz, this isn't optimal, which is what I would want when spending thousands of dollars on speakers. No matter what way you look at it, their design isn't optimal. With the price point of these drivers, you should be getting nothing less than optimal. You can always say "let your ears do the listening" argument, but you absolutely can tell which speakers are good and which arent. That said, they don't publish much that can tell us exactly how they compare. but what you can see, they're nothing to write home about. I'm sure they sound fine, but cut my dick off and call me caitlyn before I spend that much money on these speakers

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

Brother, I can't argue on the price point... but we are talking about their top tier offering. They do offer speakers at very reasonable price levels. The Appasianto is their entry line... sounds fantastic. .. their new Tempo series speakers. .. are wonderful... also priced much lower than the Grandioso. 

As for the graphs and measurements. .. hell I agree... don't know what took place when those were taken... I can't explain it... If I did try... I'd say one person is trying to wear too many hats.... and needs to delegate publishing to someone else....

As to the designs... I'm sure Andy pointed out the cupped spider design.... all I can say... the damn things work unbelievably well....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

and all i can say is.. flawed design in a 5k plus dollar set of speakers. what a shame. at least theyre treating you well though


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

They are treating me very well.... but I'm still not convinced of a flawed design....

Buy hey, I'm a self admitted Sinfoni homer.. .. LOL 

I'd love to meet up sometime... you can hear them at least....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> They are treating me very well.... but I'm still not convinced of a flawed design....
> 
> Buy hey, I'm a self admitted Sinfoni homer.. .. LOL
> 
> I'd love to meet up sometime... you can hear them at least....


Tennessee is a far hike lol. i do plan on giving minisq a shout when killington opens back up to check out his set. but listening wouldnt tell me everything, unless it sounded above and beyond fantastic. if it was anything less, whos to know if the tune wasnt perfect. that could skew a perspective


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't care about this debate anymore. I got a 3D holographic stage with ****ty Hertz and SPL amps.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> I don't care about this debate anymore. I got a 3D holographic stage with ****ty Hertz and SPL amps.


Good deal... happy for you buddy.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Tennessee is a far hike lol. i do plan on giving minisq a shout when killington opens back up to check out his set. but listening wouldnt tell me everything, unless it sounded above and beyond fantastic. if it was anything less, whos to know if the tune wasnt perfect. that could skew a perspective


Ok buddy, fair enough. ....


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> I don't care about this debate anymore. I got a 3D holographic stage with ****ty Hertz and SPL amps.


 like 2pacs last performance? dayummmm son


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Ok buddy, fair enough. ....


to get a real opinion id like to at least tune them. but hearing them in a system that sounds fantasitc would let me know they can get to that level


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Guys, what I'm saying is that Sinfoni produces a quality product. It does seem to me that others are implying it is not....
> 
> It's just that simple....


No one is implying that they are junk or not quality products, just quenching the hype that there is some kind of unidentifiable and unquestionable black magic behind these speakers that justifies them costing as much as a good used car. A product of passion does not always equate into a product with a level of performance that's miles ahead of everything else. 

It seems Sinfoni has become the Wilson Audio of car audio.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

I'm not bagging on Sinfoni. I'm simply saying that too many of these treads are all about "I like it so it's perfect."


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not bagging on Sinfoni. I'm simply saying that too many of these treads are all about "I like it so it's perfect."


So too many of these "people" posting these threads, do not know quality, just "they like it so its perfect"?


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

Andy,

While I greatly respect you, I must disagree. It does appear to me, as well as others, that has been your intention. I hope I'm wrong sir.... 

This entire escapade has soured me a bit. I have an opinion and felt compelled to share it. In return, I've been verbally attacked and ridiculed. Completely ridiculous. All because I chose to purchase a product that I believe in due ti years of experience with the brand. Now I'm not a mechanical engineer, but the design details that I see exhibited in the Grandioso set.... I liked...


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

SQ_TSX I kinda get that vibe with this thread too and Im sorry you feel that way. 

If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford the nicer things in life, more kudos to you, and you shouldn't have to feel bad for buying these speakers because of haters telling you that you got ripped off and moderators saying that you dont know ****....

Trust your ears and be happy!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Well its not like Andy is also selling a cost is no object speaker that competes with Sinfoni..so his opinion of course is unbiased. :tongue3:


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Jeremy,

Andy is just stating a fact, please see it as such. In none of his posts has he run down Sinfoni, nor said that AF>Sinfoni. Heck he hasn't even mentioned AF. Are you sure you're not over reacting?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

My objective in this forum has always been to help people understand the tech behind the hobby. I try my best to do that objectively. 

I haven't attacked anyone. 

The performance of speakers can be objectively quantified and qualified. Traditionally, the objective of speaker designers is to make speakers that have flat response and low distortion within the range of frequencies over which they will be used. There are also lots of applications that are less traditional. The suitability of a driver for its purpose can be objectively qualified if one knows the purpose. 

A high quality driver is one that meets spec consistently, if you ask an engineer. The job of a product manager is to see that the spec meets consumer expectation. 

I've been doing this for a long time. I can look at the dcoumentation, so long as it's complete, and look at a speaker and determine what it's designed for and how it will perform.

All i have written about the speakers in question is that the documentation doesn't match the performance and that in the one case in which i listened, my reference speakers had flatter response and were more accurate. All of the other speakers were mounted in a dealer's sound board. So, all I can glean from that is that there are differences between the speakers and that the sound board in the room contributes NEGATIVELY to the sound of all the speakers mounted in it.

So, If that has offended those of you here, then I am sorry. Yes, I make and sell products that compete with these. Yes, I design and make products DIFFERENTLY than these. Yes, there's a reason that the products I make are different. Pointing out, when someone asks, how the products I make differ from others and why is NOT denigrating another product. 

Suggesting that because one prefers an apple to an orange doesn't mean that an apple is a superior fruit is not denigrating the apple and it isn't an insult to the person who prefers the apple. It's just a statement that suggests that one's preference isn't necessarily an indication of the general superiority of a product, only it's suitability for that particular user. 

When people post in other forums that they think Audiofrog speakers are "lifeless", I ask, "What do you mean? Can you help me understand?" Why ask that? Because the answer is information about customer preference. Understanding customer preference is part of developing products. When people call and say, "Wow! These things sound great!" I ask the same questions.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

sqnut said:


> Jeremy,
> 
> Andy is just stating a fact, please see it as such. In none of his posts has he run down Sinfoni, nor said that AF>Sinfoni. Heck he hasn't even mentioned AF. Are you sure you're not over reacting?


Maybe just a little..
When potential competitor post in topics like that it`s always considered ethically questionable. Even without direct critique of the product .


I think it`s perfectly fine to speak your mind even if it seems like bashing competing product/company but you have to stand behind your statement.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I think purchase and ownership are on the chopping blocks. To say you appreciate the design doesn't mean that it's technically proficient for the user's purpose.

Also, it brings into question why the user appreciates the design in their circumstance. It says a lot about objectivity. It doesn't say much about real world performance


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I don't feel I'm over reacting.... if we're calling a spade a spade... my opinion , Andy is executing a fine passive aggressive campaign with a little help...

LOL. .. maybe I need to take off my tin foil hat... buy that is how I see things progressing. 

In the end, this type of behavior hurts the entire business and hobby. I guess that's what really gets me upset... not whether someone likes my choices.... that truly doesn't matter to anyone but me...

So in the end, I'm going to enjoy my Sinfoni system...

Best wishes


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

People alway select products by their appearance first and everything else second.
In human perspective pretty things perform better.
cars, electronics, girls,etc.
in reality it`s often quite the opposite....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> When people post in other forums that they think Audiofrog speakers are "lifeless", I ask, "What do you mean? Can you help me understand?" Why ask that? Because the answer is information about customer preference. Understanding customer preference is part of developing products. When people call and say, "Wow! These things sound great!" I ask the same questions.


I never heard one so I can`t comment.... 
"lifeless" usually indicative of low sensitivity or insufficient power/bad amplifiers dynamics.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I wouldn't say mine are lifeless. I wouldn't say the Sinfoni's are bad either. Matter of fact, I still believe the vehicle plays a larger part in sound quality than the speakers.

Maybe that's what makes me a skeptic of most reviews?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok, no matter how perfect the speaker, once it's installed in the car, it needs to be tuned. When you're trying to dial in that accurate 2ch sound, you're largely fighting and trying to overcome the effects of environment. Having a speaker that starts off with a flat response in a reasonably wide bandwidth of use is much better, because it lets you focus on one thing. 

If the speaker has +/- 2-4 db wiggles with a corresponding peaky distortion profile, you're now fighting and trying to overcome the environment _and _the speaker. That just means having to make a lot more compromises and a final sound that can be bettered with a flatter driver. If you tune your car, you will discover this. There's a reason why people prefer the Scan Illuminator mid to the Revelator.


----------



## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Andy, your objective and scientific explanations are always appreciated...

But these comment doesn't sound very objective or scientific to me. It sounds like you are flexing your superior knowledge, and us common folks' opinion does not matter...



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not bagging on Sinfoni. I'm simply saying that too many of these treads are all about "I like it so it's perfect."


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SouthSyde said:


> Andy, your objective and scientific explanations are always appreciated...
> 
> But these comment doesn't sound very objective or scientific to me. It sounds like you are flexing your superior knowledge, and us common folks' opinion does not matter...



I don't see it that way at all. There's been a number of threads where people are wondering if the personal experience correlates with measured response or other characteristics that are typically indicative of performance.

As of right now there's no evidence to support the idea that they're a tier 1 component. It doesn't mean they aren't...It just means the observations made are what Andy said...preference. there's nothing wrong admitting that.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

So what "evidence" is required to be considered tier 1, tier 2 or tier 3 ?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

This isn't my fight. Just go look through those threads and the others related to understanding driver's performance.

It's already been acknowledged that their graphs don't make sense. I don't think Andy should be questioned for pointing out the lack of data.

Deciding they sound great with a lack of data points to what he said...they're preferred. There's no evidence of quality just because you like it.

And there's nothing wrong with preferring them.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

So the evidence collectors that I have on either side of head don't really measure properly my level of enjoyment.... my level of realism... 

I shouldn't trust my data collectors without correlating graphs and pie charts....

It's so nice to be enlightened that I don't understand what good sound is.... that I can't recognize a high quality product offering.... 

Nice to finally realize I've been mislead for so many years...


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My objective in this forum has always been to help people understand the tech behind the hobby. I try my best to do that objectively.
> 
> I haven't attacked anyone.
> 
> ...


That's completely sincere and fair.
I would love to try Some of andys line of speaks. I've looked at the product line and I'm very impressed. I'm actually going to get a set of the AF components for my van to try out. Anyone on here that is making a prouduct and has time to chat with us goons IMO is worth my $$$$ 

I like sinphony just not as much as I like other stuff , it's not quite like a 30$set of boss speakers but there not all that great either.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> That's completely sincere and fair.
> I would love to try Some of andys line of speaks. I've looked at the product line and I'm very impressed. I'm actually going to get a set of the AF components for my van to try out. Anyone on here that is making a prouduct and has time to chat with us goons IMO is worth my $$$$
> 
> I like sinphony just not as much as I like other stuff , it's not quite like a 30$set of boss speakers but there not all that great either.


Sinfoni


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SQ_TSX said:


> So what "evidence" is required to be considered tier 1, tier 2 or tier 3 ?




Something like ErinH does at his website--

http://medleysmusings.com/category/speaker-driver-tests/


Or like Niebur did in arranging a woofer "shoot out"

http://www.phass.com/Resources/Niebur_DIYMA MidWoofer Test Results.pdf


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> So the evidence collectors that I have on either side of head don't really measure properly my level of enjoyment.... my level of realism...
> 
> I shouldn't trust my data collectors without correlating graphs and pie charts....




It's clearly an indication of preference as another may dislike that sound with prejudice. That's also a quantitative sound achieved by the circumstance and not solely due to the drivers "quality". It's obviously a product of the speaker + nearfield.

The problem here is the same as always. People aren't speaking each others language. Your idea of quality doesn't mean the same thing as it does to Andy. I don't think anybody is making personal attacks against you. I'm sorry if you thought I was taking shots at you.

So given your circumstance and idea of quality, and given the lack of data related to the driver's characteristics, how do you reproduce what your ears have heard?

Nobody said you are deaf or you have no clue what you're talking about. You're just telling us that you prefer the sound they have achieved. We don't know what the response is of those speakers in your vehicle at your ears either.

It's really not a big deal...


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> That's completely sincere and fair.
> I would love to try Some of andys line of speaks. I've looked at the product line and I'm very impressed. I'm actually going to get a set of the AF components for my van to try out. Anyone on here that is making a prouduct and has time to chat with us goons IMO is worth my $$$$
> 
> I like sinphony just not as much as I like other stuff , it's not quite like a 30$set of boss speakers but there not all that great either.


As I've stated earlier, I have a great deal of respect for Andy because of his going full out for a dream... I also think he has a very nice product... 

But I do feel he is not being sincere ... but then again I'm slanted.... or so I've been told by numerous forum members that ascribe to Andy's scientific only approach. 

So be it...


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> As I've stated earlier, I have a great deal of respect for Andy because of his going full out for a dream... I also think he has a very nice product...
> 
> But I do feel he is not being sincere ... but then again I'm slanted.... or so I've been told by numerous forum members that ascribe to Andy's scientific only approach.
> 
> So be it...


I can't get the guy to talk to me, even though I know he's very gifted in this and only speak very highly of him. But I don't think he was being insincere


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Sinfoni


Yes.... ??


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> I can't get the guy to talk to me, even though I know he's very gifted in this and only speak very highly of him. But I don't think he was being insincere


Ok friend.... 

Best wishes to you


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Yes.... ??


Dude can't get the name right


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Dude can't get the name right


LOL. ... gotcha...


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

oabeieo said:


> I can't get the guy to talk to me, even though I know he's very gifted in this and only speak very highly of him. But I don't think he was being insincere




I've noticed he's short on time and short on words unless he deems the topic important.

I wouldn't take offense to that. It probably means that the topics you bring up are somewhere on the site already. He's provided thorough insight into his application of knowledge in the MS-8 thread. A few people have even aggregated his posts into single threads.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

seafish said:


> Something like ErinH does at his website--
> 
> http://medleysmusings.com/category/speaker-driver-tests/
> 
> ...


Niebur's test is a joke. Everything they praised certain speakers doing can be done with a iPhones speaker.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Niebur's test is a joke. Everything they praised certain speakers doing can be done with a iPhones speaker.


Jeez man, Jerry put s ton of work into that comparison...


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm sure he did but the testers didn't.

Or it just goes to show at a certain point they are all the same


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> As I've stated earlier, I have a great deal of respect for Andy because of his going full out for a dream... I also think he has a very nice product...
> 
> But I do feel he is not being sincere ... but then again I'm slanted.... or so I've been told by numerous forum members that ascribe to Andy's scientific only approach.
> 
> So be it...


There needs to be an understanding of the difference between preference and objectivity.

You like the way they sound because your ears tell you that. That's preference. That doesn't make them a quality speaker, or accurate, or anything else other than a speaker you like the sound of. Other people will not have the same preferences as you. Your flat is someone else's bright. Which of the two is wrong?

Objectivity is the proof that it is in fact, an accurate, low distortion speaker. That REQUIRES proper measurements, something sinfoni lacks the knowledge and care to do.

Preference is not proof that it is a good speaker, just that is a good speaker for you.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I've noticed he's short on time and short on words unless he deems the topic important.
> 
> I wouldn't take offense to that. It probably means that the topics you bring up are somewhere on the site already. He's provided thorough insight into his application of knowledge in the MS-8 thread. A few people have even aggregated his posts into single threads.


I hope so. I really hope to have some dialogue with him at some point on some thread. I learn a lot him .


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> There needs to be an understanding of the difference between preference and objectivity.
> 
> You like the way they sound because your ears tell you that. That's preference.  That doesn't make them a quality speaker, or accurate, or anything else other than a speaker you like the sound of. Other people will not have the same preferences as you. Your flat is someone else's bright. Which of the two is wrong?
> 
> ...


I like what you just wrote....!
You've made more sense in this single post than the entire thread... 

Definition of Quality:
noun
1.
the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something.
"an improvement in product quality"
2.
a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something.
"he shows strong leadership qualities"

From the above... excellence seems to be the common denominator. .. given this.... my experience with the Grandioso speakers dictate they are quality products...

It always comes down to sound... that is the true goal we all have.... great sound to our ears... right ?

Here's what I propose... 

My car is open to anyone that would like to listen to it. I plan to have three separate "tunes"... 
1. A tune with no EQ. Only level and time alignment.
2. A tune with the subs muted... only the front 2way stage.
3. My final tune including eq adjustments.

That way individuals can hear only the speakers.... with no frequency manipulation. ...

Sound fair ?


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> I like what you just wrote....!
> You've made more sense in this single post than the entire thread...
> 
> Definition of Quality:
> ...



I think you're missing the point. With respect to speakers, quality means if you playback a bunch of them in the same circumstance you'll achieve extremely similar response.

There isn't enough data to make that claim. It looks good doesn't objectively prove anything. They sound good doesn't help anybody project their sound in different environments. There aren't any indications of their quality as of right now.

Your nearfield environment is not the same as others. Your nearfield environment is the primary influence in your speaker response. Use a completely different environment and you might very well take a hammer to them before your ears start bleeding.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I think you're missing the point. With respect to speakers, quality means if you playback a bunch of them in the same circumstance you'll achieve extremely similar response.
> 
> There isn't enough data to make that claim. It looks good doesn't objectively prove anything. They sound good doesn't help anybody project their sound in different environments. There aren't any indications of their quality as of right now.
> 
> Your nearfield environment is not the same as others. Your nearfield environment is the primary influence in your speaker response. Use a completely different environment and you might very well take a hammer to them before your ears start bleeding.


So you want all speakers to sound the same.... no differences... nice flat FR.... completely neutral. ... 

Have you listened to a flat tuned car... they sound like a big pile of poop....

Also, the various speakers would need to be so similar... ie. cone materials, motor strength, power handling. .. what you're saying is there is no room for flavor.... 

If this person, Andy in this case, states that "this" is the standard for what a quality product is... then all others that state otherwise... are exhibiting a foolhardy opinion.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DDfusion said:


> Niebur's test is a joke. Everything they praised certain speakers doing can be done with a iPhones speaker.


Wow. Thanks for that. So again begs the question, is your iPhone speaker is operating in the exact same passband as our test??? If so, then get that thing fixed. It's one thing to hear something when listening to the entire frequency range, quite another with a very limited passband. Oh, and fwiw, that was a test of 3-4" midrange u were referring to, not the midbass test that was linked. 



oabeieo said:


> I like sinphony just not as much as I like other stuff , it's not quite like a 30$set of boss speakers but there not all that great either.


Here you go again making statements acting like you know. Tell me, which sinfoni (actually how it is spelled) speakers have you listened to? If you had any in your hands, you would at least know how the name is spelled.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> So you want all speakers to sound the same.... no differences... nice flat FR.... completely neutral. ...
> 
> Have you listened to a flat tuned car... they sound like a big pile of poop....



That's not what I said.

You should read up on near field environments. I didn't say the sound is indicative of their quality. I said their performance is indicative of quality. Would you draft an athlete for football because he "LOOKS" like a good player? Wouldn't you want some performance stats to help understand what kind of player you have?

You need to objectively understand your speaker to understand the best application of that speaker. Without any indication of quality you signed a blocking back to be your linebacker.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

seafish said:


> Or like Niebur did in arranging a woofer "shoot out"
> 
> http://www.phass.com/Resources/Niebur_DIYMA MidWoofer Test Results.pdf


FWIW ( and in this thread i am guessing its worth nothing ) i replaced a Phass midbass driver that is a top tier driver ( and a very nice sounding speaker) with a Sinfoni Maestroso driver and the difference is night and day. 

The Sinfoni is so much better in every single category as to make the Phass driver almost irrelevant.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

Designing speakers is an art form... that is rooted in science... 

Or at least that's always been my short sighted ignorant point of view... LOL


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Andy indicates that his impression, from using his "evidence collectors" is that Sinfoni makes a nice sounding product.

His opinion wasn't as flattering as the information about his home-brew towers using AF drivers, and I think he was trying to explain that speakers in their optimized environment, or 2pi space instead of half pi, or whatever you'd say makes the difference between a sound board (wall) and an enclosure operating outside of that wall, will always sound better, or can be made to sound better than in the wall.


It is true that the Audiofrog brand needs exposure, and doing direct comparisons with the product highest in retail cost, makes the point that Audiofrog is a value-added brand as a result, since you can get all the graphs and objective measurements from the manufacturer and they aren't stymied by problematic, or junior varsity attempts at data collection...


and here you have nothing, nothing concrete to go by because the actual response from the speakers does not match their manufacturer-provided objective measurements, according to someone with ample business knowledge, and who has always tried to display an air of non-biased information dissemination.

The issue that arises is not whether or not Sinfoni is as good as a member says it is, it's that the objective measurements so far have not indicated top tier inclusion.

Andy saying they are nice sounding speakers, may be that inclusion. Certainly the impression of those who have them, are tainted by owner-preferential biases, that come from dropping a load of coin to get them.

Do we have to indicate objective quality first, before acceptance of subjective quality, then?

That's the way it usually is done here, the cart has been put before the horse because in the old days, Npdang took a set of "blank space" drivers and after testing, they placed in his subjective rankings. The tier system is a flawed one but it does provide a modicum of gradient test points, and can be easily understood by the majority of readers.


Perhaps the issue is the tier system, more than the objective disqualification, at this point?


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Niebur3 said:


> Wow. Thanks for that. So again begs the question, is your iPhone speaker is operating in the exact same passband as our test??? If so, then get that thing fixed. It's one thing to hear something when listening to the entire frequency range, quite another with a very limited passband. Oh, and fwiw, that was a test of 3-4" midrange u were referring to, not the midbass test that was linked.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go again making statements acting like you know. Tell me, which sinfoni (actually how it is spelled) speakers have you listened to? If you had any in your hands, you would at least know how the name is spelled.


If it's 600hz it's going to be 600hz no matter what is playing it back


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> If it's 600hz it's going to be 600hz no matter what is playing it back


yeah but its much easier to pick out a sound when the passband is limited vs when the whole spectrum is playing.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

cajunner said:


> Andy saying they are nice sounding speakers, may be that inclusion. Certainly the impression of those who have them, are tainted by owner-preferential biases, that come from dropping a load of coin to get them.



That's why I'm offering up my car for demos... even without EQ.... just the 2way front stage. ... to anyone interested in listening... they have no skin in the game.... just an unadulterated honest opinion of whether they like the sound or not....

Sound fair ?


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> That's not what I said.
> 
> You should read up on near field environments. I didn't say the sound is indicative of their quality. I said their performance is indicative of quality. Would you draft an athlete for football because he "LOOKS" like a good player? Wouldn't you want some performance stats to help understand what kind of player you have?
> 
> You need to objectively understand your speaker to understand the best application of that speaker. Without any indication of quality you signed a blocking back to be your linebacker.


Incorrect.... that's precisely what you said....


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> yeah but its much easier to pick out a sound when the passband is limited vs when the whole spectrum is playing.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> Incorrect.... that's precisely what you said....


Hear or read what you want. You're the one that swears the sound is indicative of quality...it's not. Many people swear that Bose are quality speakers based on their sound alone. How do we objectively know? 

My point being...you might pick the perfect driver for your application on accident. But you need objective data points to know what you have.

Andy said it...preference is not an indicator of quality. There's nothing wrong with liking what you have. But objectively nobody knows anything about your speaker.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


>


Ok, now that's funny....!


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Unless any sound system tuned to preference of listener it sounds like big pile of poop.
Point of being linear for the sake of objective measurements just as that pile of poop.
You either like it or you don`t, how flat FR is last thing one should be worried about.
possibility of great sound without spending a lot of money is not a topic here therefore pointless.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Hear or read what you want. You're the one that swears the sound is indicative of quality...it's not.


No sir.... 

To be completely accurate.... you and those that have no personal experience with the product have no proof of the quality.... 

Myself as well as the others that have personally experience, know the level of quality. 

So does Andy... really...


----------



## palldat (Feb 6, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Ok, now that's funny....!


But what if it was a B&W Zeppelin? :laugh:


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Unless any sound system tuned to preference of listener it sounds like big pile of poop.
> Point of being linear for the sake of objective measurements just as that pile of poop.
> You either like it or you don`t, how flat FR is last thing one should be worried about.
> possibility of great sound without spending a lot of money is not a topic here therefore pointless.



I'm very much with you on this. Preference is all that matters in the end. I understand Andy's engineering perspective but I don't think Op does.

I honestly don't care if they're excellent or terrible but I don't think Andy should take a hit on his reputation for stating the obvious.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

palldat said:


> But what if it was a B&W Zeppelin? :laugh:


Well now that would change things... LOL


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> No sir....
> 
> To be completely accurate.... you and those that have no personal experience with the product have no proof of the quality....
> 
> ...



You realize that they'll sound completely different in another car without any processing?

If you didn't like that sound would they still be "quality"?


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I'm very much with you on this. Preference is all that matters in the end. I understand Andy's engineering perspective but I don't think Op does.
> 
> I honestly don't care if they're excellent or terrible but I don't think Andy should take a hit on his reputation for stating the obvious.


So Sinfoni and all their dealers should take the hit to their long excellent history... just to make sure Andy's perspective stays golden.

Correct?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My objective in this forum has always been to help people understand the tech behind the hobby. I try my best to do that objectively.
> 
> I haven't attacked anyone.
> 
> ...





palldat said:


> But what if it was a B&W Zeppelin? :laugh:


and it`s wireless!


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> You realize that they'll sound completely different in another car without any processing?
> 
> If you didn't like that sound would they still be "quality"?


I'm pretty sure that applies for all speakers....


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> To be completely accurate.... you and those that have no personal experience with the product have no proof of the quality....


*IF* those FR graphs are anything near accurate, im sorry but no.


----------



## palldat (Feb 6, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> and it`s wireless!


...Right, How cool is that? Which class would that fall under?


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> So Sinfoni and all their dealers should take the hit to their long excellent history... just to make sure Andy's perspective stays golden.
> 
> Correct?



Nobody made that argument. Why are you so upset about this?


EDIT: btw...Victor posted Andy's response again explaining the expectation for quality from an engineer's perspective. There's a video in my build log too from another Harman engineer who explains why you want the speaker the way Andy explained above.

Andy didn't say that your speaker is terrible or should sound terrible. He just said it's different from their published specifications. To an engineer...you want all production to be similar so that you can drop in any speaker in your install from that lineup and achieve similar performance. For some reason their measurements are not indicative of the final product.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> I'm pretty sure that applies for all speakers....



Absolutely...so how it sounds to you is not an objective data point to quantify "quality"

For the gentleman who purchases these speakers and declares that they sound terrible so they're of terrible quality...what do you say?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Being objective in subjective matter of music is what?


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

SQ_TSX said:


> Ok, now that's funny....!


Genuine 2ch feeling!


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Being objective in subjective matter of music is what?


not gong to happen when words mean something different to different people


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

It's simple. 
If you like them but can't afford them you are a hater
If you don't like them but can afford them you are a hater
If you do like them and can afford them you are a fanboy. 

Isn't that the norm? all the tech mombojumbo aside


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

I busted a one of it's kind, dyno tuned Briggs and Stratton carb on the track one day because one screw just like those on that Specialagentoso decided it didn't want to be tight anymore..


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> It's simple.
> If you like them but can't afford them you are a hater
> If you don't like them but can afford them you are a hater
> If you do like them and can afford them you are a fanboy.
> ...


I don't think it's that. It's just when you come to a site that was founded on finding good price to performance drivers and install tactics based on objective results, talking about how this new brand is hot stuff, but on paper they look like something you wouldnt even use for 100 bucks, that's when people start questioning.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SQ_TSX said:


> That's why I'm offering up my car for demos... even without EQ.... just the 2way front stage. ... to anyone interested in listening... they have no skin in the game.... just an unadulterated honest opinion of whether they like the sound or not....
> 
> Sound fair ?


not sure what is being debated here, is it that you want more people to place these in their top tier preferences, or that you want to justify the retail cost by making the point that people who hear them always say they sound good?

I think the evidence of objective measurements has not yet proven these to be ranked either way, because the provided graphs reveal nothing about their sound quality if taken on the given curves.

The relative value of the speakers remains inconsistent without the measurements that indicate top tier performance. And not just a single pair produced by careful production and provided for analysis, but a random sample taken from the distribution network that a regular Joe will get them from.

But if you want to continue to proclaim these as your favorites, nobody is taking that away from you, or challenging your opinion. I think that has to be acknowledged and that discussion about the speakers is not targeted towards you personally.


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

"can I just play fair and demo my car?"

"no, we want to keep hassling you"


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

Kazuhiro said:


> "can I just play fair and demo my car?"
> 
> "no, we want to keep hassling you"


LOL....


----------



## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Designing speakers is an art form... that is rooted in science...
> 
> Or at least that's always been my short sighted ignorant point of view... LOL


The thing is, the design aspect is entirely scientific. 

It used to be considered a "black art" decades ago before guys like Thiele, Small, and Wolfgang Klippel (just to name a few) stuck their heads in and started to figure things out.

Nowadays, it's 100% science. Zero art, except for cosmetics. That's why people are throwing up red flags about the complete lack of scientific data behind the Sinfoni speakers. 

The only time speaker design is considered an art form is by an exotic (usually European) company that markets their "passion" for sound to people who believe in the passion and are easily sucked into the hype. This is why trying to explain psychoacoustics to a high end audio enthusiast always clashes.


----------



## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

Well, I guess I'm just a completely misled lemming. ...

Guilty as charged....


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kazuhiro said:


> "can I just play fair and demo my car?"
> 
> "no, we want to keep hassling you"


hassling him? its not like its his thread and we came in and started ****ting on him. DDfusion posted a question as to why speakers that are supposedly so good, look like trash on paper. if you read the first page, its actually a pretty good convo. then sinfoni owners came in and said "listen with your ears".. but why the hell would anyone spend 5k on a set when they dont even look appealing on paper? i know for a fact you wouldnt justin. i know your reasonable and no matter what you were spending, you would look at objective data before you bought anything, no?


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

I was only summarizing a few recent posts. 
My post in no way represents the complete sinfoni argument.


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

We can't all make it. Just take a recording on the phone and post a link. I can send the trophy and we'll all mail the participation award around for signatures.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Tell me how these speakers sound?


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Kazuhiro said:


> I was only summarizing a few recent posts.
> My post in no way represents the complete sinfoni argument.


He flat told us that quality was determined by his ears and then people started questioning Andy's character.

Andy simply said that quality isn't perceived...It's objective.

SQ was antagonizing Andy because he didn't give his ears a thumbs up for quality assurance.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Tell me how these speakers sound?



Woah....is that a giant electrostatic? I'm pretty sure it's not a piston with a cone...is it?


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Tell me how these speakers sound?


Is that a two way? Or a magnepan or something ?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Tell me how these speakers sound?


your implying its that simple we need more. BUT i know where your going to go with this.. "exactly so how are you going to say the sinfonis sound bad..." but starting off with a good frequency response is very important. why would you want to start off with a driver thats all over the place? this indicates that it has other issues. then we get to the part where the dip at 80hz shouldnt exist. this tells me these guys dont know how to measure a speaker (no, im not saying i do). a super exotic company that is selling 5 thousand dollar mids that either have a totally bonkers FR, or just plain dont 100% know what theyre doing? yeah let me consider them


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

^^^^ beat me to it ^^^^


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

My comment has been picked apart once again, far further than its intended face value....


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Kazuhiro said:


> My comment has been picked apart once again, far further than its intended face value....


My bad...wasn't sure it was sarcasm


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

You people funny, this is near field monitor, you know those half of 70-80-90 music mastered on Yamaha NS10.


----------



## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Well, I guess I'm just a completely misled lemming. ...
> 
> Guilty as charged....


It's not an attack at all, there's nothing wrong with liking nice things. 

For example, I'm sure there were some Ferarri owners who knew beforehand that there are other cars out there they could have bought that had better performance at a fraction of the price, but the exotic aspects just appealed to them more. 

It's apparent with anything high end. Cars, speakers, electronics, watches, jewelry, food, you name it. There's a certain point you reach with anything where people start to ignore objectivity and become more attracted to exoticism and exclusivity. There's nothing wrong with that at all - but people with an objective perspective on things are less likely to drink the exotic kool-aid.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kazuhiro said:


> My comment has been picked apart once again, far further than its intended face value....


picking apart is what we do best here


----------



## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You people funny, this is near field monitor, you know those half of 70-80-90 music mastered on Yamaha NS10.


Oh damn! What a zinger! Give me a sec to catch my breath. 

For anyone who doesn't get this zing, here's a good read. The Yamaha NS10 Story


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> your implying its that simple we need more. BUT i know where your going to go with this.. "exactly so how are you going to say the sinfonis sound bad..." but starting off with a good frequency response is very important. why would you want to start off with a driver thats all over the place? this indicates that it has other issues. then we get to the part where the dip at 80hz shouldnt exist. this tells me these guys dont know how to measure a speaker (no, im not saying i do). a super exotic company that is selling 5 thousand dollar mids that either have a totally bonkers FR, or just plain dont 100% know what theyre doing? yeah let me consider them


Because you`d never pick up NS10 as your speakers based on FR graph.
Look at that saw of a graph, 3db peaks and dips all over the place. 
I can show you respectable bare drivers exhibiting similar behavior.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Because you`d never pick up NS10 as your speakers based on FR graph.
> Look at that saw of a graph, 3db peaks and dips all over the place.
> I can show you respectable bare drivers exhibiting similar behavior.


you did in the first few posts of this thread.. but heres the problem. those drivers are mostly flat across the board. the sinfoni ones (if the measurement is actually accurate), is allllll over the place, with 8db swings. that right there just tells me dont waste your time looking any further into them. if it isnt accurate, that also tells me not to waste my time looking into them any further since a company that supposedly produces such good equipment, doesnt even know how to properly measure speakers that cost 5k.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Arete said:


> Victor posted this video in another thread on the forum. I really enjoyed it. Floyd Tolle discusses much of what is being talked about here in the video. It's almost spot on about subjective experience and objective data. He also discusses the importance of the FR graphs. It is one of the most important tools we have to decide if our money is going in the right place. ESPECIALLY if we are spending in the thousands. (He uses some examples showing some graphs of speakers exceeding 10 grand) Otherwise subjective experience is all we have to go on. We know that opinions are like.... Ya know what and everyone has one.
> 
> 
> 
> http://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM


This is a very nice lecture. I found it very interesting and well worth the time watching. I did admit that I fell asleep toward the end and had to rewind to watch the missed part. LOL


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

hurrication said:


> Oh damn! What a zinger! Give me a sec to catch my breath.
> 
> For anyone who doesn't get this zing, here's a good read. The Yamaha NS10 Story


 You got it buddy.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

NS10...pictures would have you believe it sounds good. Reality might tell you something else.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> NS10...pictures would have you believe it sounds good. Reality might tell you something else.


Story goes that Bob Clearmountain, one of the first of that new breed of 'name' engineers wanted a pair of monitors to carry with him from studio to studio so that he had a consistent reference, and he wanted something that he felt was representative of typical domestic hi-fi speakers. It is sometimes also said, usually by those for whom the abilities of the NS10 are a closed book, that he chose the NS10 because it was the worst-sounding speaker he could find.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> Story goes that Bob Clearmountain, one of the first of that new breed of 'name' engineers wanted a pair of monitors to carry with him from studio to studio so that he had a consistent reference, and he wanted something that he felt was representative of typical domestic hi-fi speakers. It is sometimes also said, usually by those for whom the abilities of the NS10 are a closed book, that he chose the NS10 because it was the worst-sounding speaker he could find.


Worst sounding speaker that he could find was a rumor. Keep reading the article and stop causing trouble.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Worst sounding speaker that he could find was a rumor. Keep reading the article and stop causing trouble.


bite me. Did you ever owned a pair? I have, they indeed sounds like ****. Like typical cheap loudspeaker of that time- ****ty.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Worst sounding speaker that he could find was a rumor. Keep reading the article and stop causing trouble.


Your feeding into "them"


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> Your feeding into "them"


I know its funny!


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> This is a very nice lecture. I found it very interesting and well worth the time watching. I did admit that I fell asleep toward the end and had to rewind to watch the missed part. LOL


Thank you for reposting that! I stated to watch it a few weeks back got all into it and had to leave and couldn't find it again.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I do have an important piece of information to convey. Some systems ( or speakers ) sound good with any type of recordings. IE " the Magic Bus". I brought some CD's with me in May when I went to California to meet Jon and listen to the bus in person. Every CD I played sounded good. 

Other systems ( or speakers ) sound good or bad dependent on the recording media. Material recorded on poorly mastered sources will sound bad, while high quality recordings sound phenomenal. This is the case with my system. I prefer the latter.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I do have an important piece of information to convey. Some systems ( or speakers ) sound good with any type of recordings. IE " the Magic Bus". I brought some CD's with me in May when I went to California to meet Jon and listen to the bus in person. Every CD I played sounded good.
> 
> Other systems ( or speakers ) sound good or bad dependent on the recording media. Material recorded on poorly mastered sources will sound bad, while high quality recordings sound phenomenal. This is the case with my system. I prefer the latter.



I agree , I like my dish served the same . 

It seems to me so long as the recording engineer didn't make any eq changes to any of his mix channels and only level changes , it shouldn't matter too much how crappy his speakers were because we will still unlock the spectrical balance the way it should be ... No?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

oabeieo said:


> I agree , I like my dish served the same .
> 
> It seems to me so long as the recording engineer didn't make any eq changes to any of his mix channels and only level changes , it shouldn't matter too much how crappy his speakers were because we will still unlock the spectrical balance the way it should be ... No?


Many, many, years ago, I read that the better a sound system is, the more flaws it will reveal in the recording material. 

So it may be possible, that a speaker that sounds bad could be a very accurate speaker, if the recording itself was bad. The only way to tell is to play a very high quality accurate recording. 

That video explains a lot if one can stay awake long enough to absorb the content.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2015)

Why do many of these members refer to myself and others... as "drinking the kool-aid".... 

Is it just because I run an entirely single brand system..? 

I started using a pair of Sinfoni 45.2 amplifiers years ago.... that experience formed a respect for the brand.... as the years passed, I tried other amplifiers. . The entire original Amplitude series.... then the Prestigio... upon trying out this La Prima amplifier... I was completely sold... one of the sweetest amplifiers I've ever enjoyed... that's why there's one in my current install. ... 

I've installed and used the original S Series speakers as well... felt they were wonderful
.. so 2015... I see that new speakers are being offered... I contact the US Distributor. .. we discuss them... and I end up ordering a pair of the Maestoso. ... fell in love with them... so... when it finally came time for my install... I chose to go up to the Grandioso. ... as much as I liked the Maestoso. .. the Grandioso were better to my ears.... 

Of course my ears mean nothing....


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Only your ears should mean everything to you, nothing else, opinions,graphs, etc..


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SQ_TSX said:


> Why do many of these members refer to myself and others... as "drinking the kool-aid"....
> 
> Is it just because I run an entirely single brand system..?
> 
> ...


I believe that what you are saying is true. You have me definitely interested in listening to a set. I don't think anyone in the New England area may have a set installed. Im curious to know which Boston Acoustics speakers that you have owned / listened / compared with the Sinfoni?


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I believe that what you are saying is true. You have me definitely interested in listening to a set. I don't think anyone in the New England area may have a set installed. Im curious to know which Boston Acoustics speakers that you have owned / listened / compared with the Sinfoni?


Well, it's been a while since I've used Boston. Long ago has a set of 767.... absolutely loved them... I did use a set of the Boston Pros... but frankly it's been so long... I can't provide a useful comparison. 

If you can get a set of the Sinfoni Eroico.... I think you will be impressed... very nice and don't cost anywhere near $5000.00


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Why do many of these members refer to myself and others... as "drinking the kool-aid"....


Because of the dismissal of the scientific side of the topic.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2015)

hurrication said:


> Because of the dismissal of the scientific side of the topic.


Sir, why do you guys think I completely dismissed the scientific side of things....? 

You have no idea of the process I followed... 

It seems you believe that I simply asked for the most expensive speakers they have... and said... "yep those will do"... 

Brother I'm not a fool... I've been in and around this hobby for a long time... I know what to look for and what to avoid. ..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> Sir, why do you guys think I completely dismissed the scientific side of things....?
> 
> You have no idea of the process I followed...
> 
> ...


Obviously not that frequency response lol


Sorry, I had to

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Obviously not that frequency response lol
> 
> 
> Sorry, I had to
> ...


LOL 

Brother, I can't dispute. ... the graph is not good... can't explain it...

That's where my personal experience comes in... and a leap of faith... 

Glad I dove in !


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

all of this arguing and going in circles. I think this is appropriate...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SQ_TSX said:


> So you want all speakers to sound the same.... no differences... nice flat FR.... completely neutral. ...
> 
> Have you listened to a flat tuned car... they sound like a big pile of poop....
> 
> ...


In a car a speaker with a flat response makes it easier to tune and gets you further.

In a car you absolutely don't want a flat system response. 

The two are very different things and maybe you're mixing things up a bit.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I do have an important piece of information to convey. Some systems ( or speakers ) sound good with any type of recordings. IE " the Magic Bus". I brought some CD's with me in May when I went to California to meet Jon and listen to the bus in person. Every CD I played sounded good.
> 
> Other systems ( or speakers ) sound good or bad dependent on the recording media. Material recorded on poorly mastered sources will sound bad, while high quality recordings sound phenomenal. This is the case with my system. I prefer the latter.











We met at the Del Mar right?


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2015)

ErinH said:


> all of this arguing and going in circles. I think this is appropriate...


LOL 

Kindergarten Cop.... so appropriate. ..

LOL


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Many people like the sound of this speaker despite the on-axis frequency response.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Many people like the sound of this speaker despite the on-axis frequency response.


I do. If it`s good for abbey road studio it`s good for me.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

And plenty of them are sold and lots of reviewers say they're good. 

If someone sent me that graph and asked me if they should buy the speaker, I'd ask, "Did you like the way they sound?" 

If they said "yes". I'd ask if they listened to any others and what they heard that was different between them. 

If they said, "these sound warm and detailed", then i would have a pretty good picture of the listener's preference.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> And plenty of them are sold and lots of reviewers say they're good.
> 
> If someone sent me that graph and asked me if they should buy the speaker, I'd ask, "Did you like the way they sound?"
> 
> ...


 So where does that leave us in terms of FR graph importance?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> So where does that leave us in terms of FR graph importance?


In exactly the same place. If one wants an accurate speaker, there are other speakers that are more accurate. If one likes the way this speaker sounds, then he will probably buy it despite the fact that there are other speakers that are more accurate. 

People bought 1966 Jaguar XKEs and even Enzo Ferrari called it "the most beautiful car ever built". I'd buy one too.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Many people like the sound of this speaker despite the on-axis frequency response.


I've actually heard the B&W's. They were pretty good for a casual listen and my first reaction was that they sounded somewhat like Dyns with a brighter top end. Warm and detailed is an accurate description. I hadn't seen the FR when I heard them, but I felt that for a speaker at this price the tonal balance could maybe be slightly better, again its just my personal opinion.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> People bought 1966 Jaguar XKEs and even Enzo Ferrari called it "the most beautiful car ever built". I'd buy one too.


You'd definitely have to buy TWO of them… the dual carburetor/ V12 tuning was a beach to get just right.
My childhood best friends dad had two matching in the garage, for that very reason.

At least that's how I remember it…LOL


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## Littlejerryseinfeld (Nov 15, 2015)

sqnut said:


> I've actually heard the B&W's. They were pretty good for a casual listen and my first reaction was that they sounded somewhat like Dyns with a brighter top end. Warm and detailed is an accurate description.


IMO, Dyns are far from warm. Yes, I own a ton; home and car audio.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> IMO, Dyns are far from warm. Yes, I own a ton; home and car audio.


and that is exactly the point, I love dyns, and they are bewitching and incredibly smooth, you can listen for hours with no fatigue. But on an accuracy scale they are definitely on the lush side, and yes they are on the warmer side.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Many people like the sound of this speaker despite the on-axis frequency response.


doesn't that graph present as extremely neutral, considering how it's variation exists inside the 5 db line increment?

or, it's almost all plus/minus 3 db, through the audible range?

I would be happy with any speaker that could do that, there's just a few wide Q changes that probably exist in voicing/crossover choice, that complement the audio spectral distribution in the standard room with 8 foot ceilings and <14 foot wide wall dimensions.


I don't know if my gating is too wide for true audiophile purposes but that appears to me to be a very listenable speaker.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

A friend runs these not very expensive bookshelves with a small 10" sub. I get a silly grin on my face every time I listen to his setup.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/manuals/M22_Bookshelf.pdf


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

cajunner said:


> but that appears to me to be a very listenable speaker.


Make no mistake, it is extremely listenable, but it isn't what I would call neutral.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

seafish said:


> You'd definitely have to buy TWO of them… the dual carburetor/ V12 tuning was a beach to get just right.
> My childhood best friends dad had two matching in the garage, for that very reason.
> 
> At least that's how I remember it…LOL



two carbs for V12 is somewhat understandable, how about two oil drain plugs?
beautiful car to look at.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I do have an important piece of information to convey. Some systems ( or speakers ) sound good with any type of recordings. IE " the Magic Bus". I brought some CD's with me in May when I went to California to meet Jon and listen to the bus in person. Every CD I played sounded good.
> 
> Other systems ( or speakers ) sound good or bad dependent on the recording media. Material recorded on poorly mastered sources will sound bad, while high quality recordings sound phenomenal. This is the case with my system. I prefer the latter.



I prefer a speaker system to reproduce what I put in, if its crap mastering new electronic music, it should sound that way. tuning all the harshness of a sax or trumpet out of a system kills realism even if its more pleasant to the ear for long listening sessions. I call this a laid back sound and frankly its really nice for long mixing sessions ut its not going to be accurate.

I found this discussion of the ns10s interesting, had a pair for awhile, but now have something even crappier/smaller. the two stock 4 inch speakers from a 1988 s10 pickup mounted in a super solid mdf box side by side with a grill over it, its small and doesn't get loud, but sounds like everything, meaning that if my mixes sound good on it then they will sound good everywhere, which was the point of the ns10 afterall.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Lycancatt said:


> I prefer a speaker system to reproduce what I put in, if its crap mastering new electronic music, it should sound that way. tuning all the harshness of a sax or trumpet out of a system kills realism even if its more pleasant to the ear for long listening sessions. I call this a laid back sound and frankly its really nice for long mixing sessions ut its not going to be accurate.
> 
> I found this discussion of the ns10s interesting, had a pair for awhile, but now have something even crappier/smaller. the two stock 4 inch speakers from a 1988 s10 pickup mounted in a super solid mdf box side by side with a grill over it, its small and doesn't get loud, but sounds like everything, meaning that if my mixes sound good on it then they will sound good everywhere, which was the point of the ns10 afterall.



Not trying start anything ........ I promise .....
I actually respect Lyncatt a lot but, 

Didn't the 88 s-10 have 4X6" and not 4" ?


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

it might have done, I got the pair of drivers from someone that told me that's where they were from, but I actually have no proof of this. could be from a Toyota of that era as they all had the 4 inch under dash speakers.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Lycancatt said:


> it might have done, I got the pair of drivers from someone that told me that's where they were from, but I actually have no proof of this. could be from a Toyota of that era as they all had the 4 inch under dash speakers.


I was just bustin your b**lz .


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Many people like the sound of this speaker despite the on-axis frequency response.


Hey Andy, what a coincidence, a client/friend of mine, works for Chelsea AudioVisual, he was telling me the last time he brought in his drum kit for me to record (a couple days ago, I've begun making my own reference recordings) that they Just got in the new 802s, and they're having treble getting any good bass response out of them when they move them into the demo room where they reside. 

Obviously, this is a room interaction issue, but I was honored to be invited to help him figure out what was going on acoustically, and how the problem could be treated. They have tried some random placement of corner traps and such, which hasn't really worked.

Once I go to Chelsea and take some measurements and try to help him out with the situation, I'll try to report back on the forum about the experience. I'm sure it will be WAAYYY cool.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

on the topic of the B&W (which is worth noting that there are different versions of that same looking speaker...), here's my impression of the 800D when I heard them at ListenUp! in Albuquerque, NM:



ErinH said:


> Figured I'd share the result...
> 
> 
> I had a couple hours to kill Monday so I drove up to Albuquerque to check out a high end A/V shop called Listen Up. I was greeted by a polite salesman who spent about 30 minutes talking with me about the hobby. Dude was super nice and you could tell he loved what he does. Said he'd been with the company for 20-something years.
> ...


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I was thinking the same thing as Erin.

Taking it a bit further, I've noticed that I'm REALLY sensitive to 'pattern flip' in loudspeakers. 'Pattern flip' is when the directivity pattern in a loudspeaker changes. (It 'flips.')









For instance, the speaker on the left is going to 'flip' at 900hz *but the speaker to the right of it is going to flip at 1800hz.*

To fix pattern flip, you take measurements of the loudspeaker at various points in the room, and then you equalize it so that the response is constant across the room. IE, if you have a tweeter that flips at 1800hz but it plays to 900hz, *you would cut the response from 900hz to 1800hz to improve the power response.* The thing that's really maddening about pattern flip is that you can put a band-aid on it with equalization, but to my ears, it always sounds "off."









So what's this have to do with B&W? Well, the B&W is going to need some very peculiar equalization, because it's going to suffer from pattern flip. Even stranger is that the pattern flip is going to be asymmetrical. That's going to be a REAL joy trying to figure out the right combination of crossover slopes and equalization to make it sound correct.

John Atkinson at Stereophile is well aware of this, and I really think he does top-notch measurements. For the last few years he's included something similar to a 'power response' measurement in his results. And I'm guessing that he does this because some speakers measure poor on-axis, but sound good because the power response is good.

Pattern flip still sucks though.

















These are a couple of my favorite speakers. I think one of the reasons is because I'm sensitive to pattern flip. And the baffle is so huge, it pushes the frequency where things flip down below the midrange.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...sg=AFQjCNFsdYMWG0hLEgaj-6qQ7-h2zsafDw&cad=rja


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## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

SouthSyde said:


> SQ_TSX I kinda get that vibe with this thread too and Im sorry you feel that way.
> 
> If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford the nicer things in life, more kudos to you, and you shouldn't have to feel bad for buying these speakers because of haters telling you that you got ripped off and moderators saying that you dont know ****....
> 
> Trust your ears and be happy!


I totally agree with this but some science has to go into finding what type of speaker is suitable for your application... Which is where I can kind of agree with Andy... You really cant have one without the other...


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2015)

matdotcom2000 said:


> I totally agree with this but some science has to go into finding what type of speaker is suitable for your application... Which is where I can kind of agree with Andy... You really cant have one without the other...


Very true statement sir !

There is a balance... Science needs to used for certain aspects... while selection based upon experience must also be considered...

Very well said sir


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## carlos3621 (Aug 24, 2015)

there a lot to be said about system matching also,

if running a speaker set like the B&W, I would look into warner sounding amps, like Mcintosh. to compensate for that strong mid and metal dome tweeter sound.

That's why manufactures always choose a specific amp, when at tradeshows, they spent a lot of time testing different amps to see which one makes their speakers sound more balanced in response.

When I purchased my PMC studio monitors, the manufacture was also pushing you to mate them with Bryston amps, which I did and the sound is amazing..

whoever came up with the phrase "all amps sound the same" should have their hearing examined or should spend some time listening to home reference gear, to hear what you can achieve with a proper setup.

just my .02 cents


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

carlos3621 said:


> I would look into warner sounding amps, like Mcintosh.


i thought mcintosh amps were supposed to be clinical?


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

The car environment is a different beast altogether. Many different issues to deal with....the "sound" of an amplifier plays a smaller role than other factors.


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## carlos3621 (Aug 24, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> i thought mcintosh amps were supposed to be clinical?


hmmm.. I never said that.
to me "clinical" would be Bryston ,

come to think of it, I think it all just comes down to personal sound preference, some people like "bright" sounding metal domes, and others like "warm" sounding soft dome tweets, 

that's arguing about what sounds "best" is ridiculous to say the least.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

carlos3621 said:


> hmmm.. I never said that.
> to me "clinical" would be Bryston ,
> 
> come to think of it, I think it all just comes down to personal sound preference, some people like "bright" sounding metal domes, and others like "warm" sounding soft dome tweets,
> ...


I know you didnt. But that's all I've heard from anyone with them

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## carlos3621 (Aug 24, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> I know you didnt. But that's all I've heard from anyone with them
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


ive owned the mcc404 before, they sound flat but detailed, and if I was using that amp again, I would pair it up with some focal uptopia be's or some other metal dome tweets.

the sinfoni I am using now, sounds really good with Dynaudio speakers with soft dome tweets,


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

carlos3621 said:


> hmmm.. I never said that.
> to me "clinical" would be Bryston ,
> 
> come to think of it, I think it all just comes down to personal sound preference, some people like "bright" sounding metal domes, and others like "warm" sounding soft dome tweets,
> ...


what does "clinical" sound like?


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## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
I'm not bagging on Sinfoni. I'm simply saying that too many of these treads are all about "I like it so it's perfect"



SouthSyde said:


> Andy, your objective and scientific explanations are always appreciated...
> 
> But these comment doesn't sound very objective or scientific to me. It sounds like you are flexing your superior knowledge, and us common folks' opinion does not matter...


Agreed

But I would like to say that this a snobbish way to say shutup with your dumbass prefences and my science is god... I feel that is not totally true... Preference does make a difference... The movie formula 51 is an example of that... Just because a drug test well doesnt mean it will get you high... Come on man I waana like your **** but you are making it hard with that comment... So if I do post a review of my opinion and it's critical... does matter???.. whats the reason for a review??? It to post my personal opinion and hopefully do that unbiastly... I say people everyone is entitled to their own opinion... If you dont agree thats fine... Agree to just disagree but dont tell me I dont matter because thats when it gets personal..


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Opinion doesn't matter when your talking about the accuracy of speakers, period. And other people's opinion about a speaker are pretty moot unless we have the same preferences.

Science is the ONLY way to determine the accuracy of a speaker.

If you don't want to talk about accuracy, then that's fine. But when people have literally called these speakers perfect, or said that there is absolutely nothing they do wrong, that's an issue, because neither is true of any speaker.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Let's leave the product aside for a bit. I am getting sick, pissed and tired of the Sinfoni nut huggers act of fake, 'holier than thou', 'hurt feelings', et al. I have seen too much of this crap in 30 years of corporate life. It generally emanates from slimy people with an agenda. It's lame, it's old and the said nut huggers need to look into the mirror before they talk about terms like 'superiority', 'bias', 'pack mentality', 'ignorance', 'attitude' etc.

1. So on the one hand it's ok for the nut huggers to make claims like, 'gold standard and definitive in mobile audio', but someone else claiming that they preferred the AF bookshelves to the Sinfoni is blasphemous and proof of bias and Sinfoni bashing. Really? Both are just opinions.

2. Jeremy's install thread had 99.999% pictures devoted to the install and there was but one picture of the final tuned FR. It was pathetic to say the least. With that response the sound in the car on delivery would have sucked hair balls, irrespective of the speaker playing. Did even one 'objective' nut huger claim that the sound was crappy? A statement that tuning sucked and the revered Sinfoni's sounded like crap? Nope it was glorious and melodious and the perfect sound all the way.............its either total ignorance of good sound or working to an agenda, you take your pick.

3. The nut huggers and comical sympathizers to the Sinfoni cause, have taken major exception to the statement below. Why? 



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can we just admit that preference is not necessarily evidence of quality?


What's wrong with the statement? If a speaker sounds good it will measure decent, there are tons of articles and videos about this on the internet from people far more knowledgeable than you and I. The statement above is a fact, preference does not equate with quality. Here's another statement of fact. 'sounds good and sounds good to my ears are 99.99% of the time, two very different things'.

4. People have quoted parts out of post below, without keeping in mind the context in which things were said. Picking one line and ignoring the context is an easy way to impart spin in your favour. So it's wrong to bash a product that most haven't heard, but it's ok to bash a person by twisting facts and seeing implied slight where none exits?



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> My objective in this forum has always been to help people understand the tech behind the hobby. I try my best to do that objectively.
> 
> I haven't attacked anyone.
> 
> ...


The attitude of the nut huggers is deplorable and is turning people off from the product before they even hear it. Not since the days of HAT love have we seen such an obvious, fake and transparent pitch to promote a product. 

So Jeremy, your install would probably place you in extreme class. Now even assuming that you'd get some one like Matt Roberts to tune your car, what if the car didn't place top 5 at finals? Would Sinfoni still be the definitive gold standard in mobile audio as a fact, or would it be definitive gold standard for your ears?

[edit]For all you nut huggers who claim that Andy has run down sinfoni, is biased and trying to plug AF products over others, search the forum and find one post to that effect. Then look at yourselves and your posts in the mirror for bias, condescending attitude to other brands, and shameless plugging of your brand.[edit]


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## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

We need people in Congress and government with the type of drive to put a point across like some of those have done on here, for the better of humanity in our current times.

I for one am sick and tired of hearing the nut hugger term, since I am in the group of owners of the same product. I try to stay out of the endless ongoing debate for the most part because it doesnt seem to teach me much besides this debate could last for ever and the same rules still apply at the end of the day. For a guy that does not compete I go by what I like what sounds good and sounds good to me in and out of my vehicle. 

Opinions are like assholes as we all know we all have them. My opinion of the product that I worked my ass off to pay for has better qaulitys than others I have used over the years. I think we all agree, tuning is 80% or some where near there of a build. Add a fantastic tune to a speaker that you like the characteristics of and you could have your favorite system ever.. 

I respect and appreciate everyone's input on this site that's why I came here several years ago. Some of the stuff that goes on back-and-forth im sure would drive away could be new members, people that are in it as a hobby, people that are in it for the same love of car audio that we all started off with..


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

miniSQ said:


> No offense to Andy, but i bet if he was the designer you guys would be climbing over each other to suck its d&$K.


I don't see too many people sucking AF d#*k here, but I see plenty polishing the Sinfoni knob.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I think what we might attribute to passion on either side, the ones who own the product and the ones who don't, is not off-putting to the general visitor curious about higher end products in our hobby.

If it indeed indicates passion, then let the heated discussion run it's course, and forget about trying to quiet either side, since passion is so often vanquished in the face of logic and reason.

logic and reason, brings me to the end of my post.

but logic and reason didn't allow me not to post, that was passion, lol.


and some of us are here for the lolz.


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## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

You guys will love this.. I like their amps too, alot. Polishing all of this Sinfoni, no knobs to be found.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

^^^ link doesn't work for me.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

sq_nut, I think the only "nut hugger" here is you. You the one riding Andy's nuts man. Sure you learned alot from him over the years, he is like a mentor to you etc... but come on man... 

Like stated before, everyone should be allowed to post their opinion on the forums, thats what its for right? I dont have a problem with anyone liking the AF bookshelves over Sinfoni stuff. Hell, I am not affiliated with neither brand.

What I have a problem with, however, is when an owner of a speaker company chimes in and discredits that person's opinion about a certain product because he feels the person's opinion is inferior... He must not know what the **** he is talking about if he likes those speakers, right? I have been on this forum a pretty long time, and great forums like Elitecaraudio.com before this... Its people like you that shy many people away from the forums. Makes people not wanna post reviews, cause they feel they are not worthy. Elitecaraudio used to have amp shootouts, head unit, shootouts, etc... That was awesome! Now if they post that up, although its their opinion, they will get discredited and flamed cause "all amps sound the same." So what? Its their ****ing opinion and they are entitltled to it. 

Speaking of competition, do you compete? Have you heard any of the cars in competition today? What part of SQ_TSX install makes him extreme class? So you are saying competition is the gold standard for measuring a speaker's performance? COME ON MAN!


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

And I thought all amps sound the same, Sinfoni amps just produce power just like any other amp..  

Just kidding, they are to rich for my blood... but great looking amps, never had a chance to hear them in person, but I'm sure they are top of the line just like their home audio is.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

deeppinkdiver said:


> You guys will love this.. I like their amps too, alot. Polishing all of this Sinfoni, no knobs to be found.


This set right here is more then some of our cars ! 

How crazy is that???  

my question is, is it really "you get what you pay for" when it comes to high end amp like that?

I though its all about install and tune... placement of speakers... I guess this is a different categories equipment.


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

I just think the term "nut-hugger" is funny. Never heard it before this forum. 

When you think about it, loudspeakers are quite possibly the worlds oldest "virtual reality" devices.

That's really what they are.

If we could have a visual holographic simulation machine, the way speakers are an auditory holographic simulator.........WOW.......what a market.

IF, in this hypothetical scenario, the visual simulation machine was to create a reality that had the same "realness" as our beloved loudspeakers do, I don't think ANYONE would be saying that they can't tell the difference between virtual reality and real-life.

ALL loudspeakers are flawed. They are ALL compromised in some way. 

Some people PREFER the compromise of loudspeaker A to the compromises of loudspeaker B

That's all.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SouthSyde said:


> sq_nut, I think the only "nut hugger" here is you. You the one riding Andy's nuts man. Sure you learned alot from him over the years, he is like a mentor to you etc... but come on man...


:laugh: Your insinuation is really funny because at the core Andy is a scientist and he doesn't think much of my tune by ear non scientific ways. Have I learned a lot from him? Heck yes, he is the only scientist here past and present, who presents things in a simple and easy to understand way. So yes, he has been a big help in putting the big picture of car audio in place. But tuning and saying better or worse accurately, is just down to the hours spent doing it and here my mentor is Aaron / Macleod. 

I'm not standing up for Andy, heck I'm just a typical Libran who gets piqued at perceived injustice. 



SouthSyde said:


> Like stated before, everyone should be allowed to post their opinion on the forums, thats what its for right? I dont have a problem with anyone liking the AF bookshelves over Sinfoni stuff. Hell, I am not affiliated with neither brand.


Agreed, both sides are entiled to opinions bit only one side is taking the others opinion as a slight and hence reason for personality bashing.



SouthSyde said:


> What I have a problem with, however, is when an owner of a speaker company chimes in and discredits that person's opinion about a certain product because he feels the person's opinion is inferior... He must not know what the **** he is talking about if he likes those speakers, right? I have been on this forum a pretty long time, and great forums like Elitecaraudio.com before this... Its people like you that shy many people away from the forums. Makes people not wanna post reviews, cause they feel they are not worthy. Elitecaraudio used to have amp shootouts, head unit, shootouts, etc... That was awesome! Now if they post that up, although its their opinion, they will get discredited and flamed cause "all amps sound the same." So what? Its their ****ing opinion and they are entitltled to it.


Careful, or you'll get called for cussing . There is a difference between saying "Sinfoni is the best speaker I have ever heard" and saying "Sinfoni is the best speaker in the world, i.e. definitive gold standard". The first is an opinion, which everyone is entitled to, the second is a statement of fact. The facts have to be backed up. If you can't see the difference between the two, :shrug:

Ask any of the top tuners there the fact is, that a speaker with a flat response and low distortion profile in the required bandwidth, is easier to tune and gets you further and based on available info, the AF has better specs. 



SouthSyde said:


> Speaking of competition, do you compete? Have you heard any of the cars in competition today? What part of SQ_TSX install makes him extreme class? So you are saying competition is the gold standard for measuring a speaker's performance? COME ON MAN!


No, unfortunately there are no competitions here, but I would love to compete though. No I haven't heard any of those cars, but I do know what good accurate sound is, both from my setup at home and the car. After 7 years of tweaking I can still hear defects but I don't have the time, energy or motivation to go further. The car is close enough to the 2ch at home and good enough for me. 

The top 5-10 guys are the ones I normally mention because I can understand what their cars would sound like, mine minus all the kinks I hearing and maybe few that I'm not. A whole new level.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

miniSQ said:


> what does "clinical" sound like?


Who knows . I think it's a description people use when they can't describe something they don't like.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Hey man, me bringing up competition wasn't to discredit you. I am not doubting your reference at all. You may have a greatt reference I just don't know, so I wont pass judgement. Me bringing up competition was to show that sometimes the best cars do not win. Some of the best cars at finals was Erin, Kirk, Tim Smith, and Davy IMO... Some did well, in Meca while they did not do too well in Iasca, go figure . Competition is NOT the gold standard to which rate speakers.

Is Andy a scientist? Please excuse my ignorance I did not know. The only true scientist I knew that was active in the car stereo scene was Dr. Doug Winker. He has a doctorate degree in sound and works for the government till this day.  Oh, and that guy Jeff (werewolf), wasn't too bad himself... 

I never saw that SQ_TSX anywhere said that the sinfoni speakers was the absolute best in the world bar none, only that to him it was the best he have ever owned. Just sayin...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> There is a difference between saying "Sinfoni is the best speaker I have ever heard" and saying "Sinfoni is the best speaker in the world, i.e. definitive gold standard". The first is an opinion, which everyone is entitled to, the second is a statement of fact. The facts have to be backed up. If you can't see the difference between the two, :shrug:


ding ding ding. maybe some people would rather look at the science behind it instead of a person behind a computer they have never met before opinion. the two of them contradict. take a guess which one im going to believe?

EDIT: btw, im like this with everything in life. i usually dont believe anything anymore unless its proven to me. the stuff that these sinfoni fans (whether they are as good as they say or not), just seem like sketchy news articles to me. you never know who the hell is writing it and what their experience and situation is. i will (and apparently others too, good for them) question everything from an untrusted source. this debate is kinda like the debate against religion. one side brings their opinion and interpritation to the table to the debate, and the other brings facts about what we have learned about the universe and world around us to the debate. only one can be right. im always going to go with the side that scientifically makes sense.

and no, this isnt me praising andy. andy is smart. very smart. more knowledge and experience than probably anyone on here. even then i still dont take his word 100% on this (sorry andy lol). i go and research his points afterwards. just because i agree that preference doesnt mean quality, doesnt mean im slobbin on his knob.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

oabeieo said:


> Who knows . I think it's a description people use when they can't describe something they don't like.


I may be wrong, but I thinkkk when people say clinical, they are describing an edgy sound in the vocals that are sometimes referred to as crispy? Exxaggerated treble of some sort? Unnatural and real?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SouthSyde said:


> I may be wrong, but I thinkkk when people say clinical, they are describing an edgy sound in the vocals that are sometimes referred to as crispy? Exxaggerated treble of some sort? Unnatural and real?


Yeah maybe so....

Clinical, sterile , 

My guess it's a system with a good frequency responce but poor phase coheriance , or poor phase attributes , and maybe some excessive steep xo s as well


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SouthSyde said:


> I may be wrong, but I thinkkk when people say clinical, they are describing an edgy sound in the vocals that are sometimes referred to as crispy? Exxaggerated treble of some sort? Unnatural and real?


See how [edit] it's dangerous to use terms like that[edit] beacuse the same term can mean different things to different people. For me the term clinical means something that presents the recording exactly as it was recorded, without colouring the sound.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> what does "clinical" sound like?





oabeieo said:


> Who knows . I think it's a description people use when they can't describe something they don't like.





SouthSyde said:


> I may be wrong, but I thinkkk when people say clinical, they are describing an edgy sound in the vocals that are sometimes referred to as crispy? Exxaggerated treble of some sort? Unnatural and real?





oabeieo said:


> Yeah maybe so....
> 
> Clinical, sterile ,
> 
> My guess it's a system with a good frequency responce but poor phase coheriance , or poor phase attributes , and maybe some excessive steep xo s as well


and this convo is why i dont trust subjective reviews from people i dont know or trust anymore, much like this whole debate


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't trust anything unless I hear it with my own ears. After sitting in cars the owner praised that sounded like a BOA.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Clinical... sterile... is not a hard term to accept in the audio world. In its simplest definition, it means clean and perhaps too clean by common tastes. Perfect example is the Dayton HO's reputation described by many when in the usual slightly oversized sealed enclosure which to me was pleasant in a past install. It has been pointed out before that slight distortion is preferred by many and perceived as warmth or sounding natural. I can see that being true, therefore clinical takes on an actual meaning in that regard.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> and this convo is why i dont trust subjective reviews from people i dont know or trust anymore, much like this whole debate


Yeah , I feel the same . I look at specs , and materials I like. 


"there's a million things that vibrate out there , 
There's some that say theirs is the best, and they can prove it "
-cajunner-


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

sqnut said:


> Let's leave the product aside for a bit. I am getting sick, pissed and tired of the Sinfoni nut huggers act of fake, 'holier than thou', 'hurt feelings', et al. I have seen too much of this crap in 30 years of corporate life. It generally emanates from slimy people with an agenda. It's lame, it's old and the said nut huggers need to look into the mirror before they talk about terms like 'superiority', 'bias', 'pack mentality', 'ignorance', 'attitude' etc.
> 
> 1. So on the one hand it's ok for the nut huggers to make claims like, 'gold standard and definitive in mobile audio', but someone else claiming that they preferred the AF bookshelves to the Sinfoni is blasphemous and proof of bias and Sinfoni bashing. Really? Both are just opinions.
> 
> ...


With a post like that... I really feel you're the one that is arrogant. 

Just looking at one graph is enough to know how good a system sounds? Pleaseee... 

I feel a bit sorry for Jeremy about bumping this thread back but I do understand both sides' opinion. I used to be all objective when I first started on this forum - NPdang changed my way of thinking and then I became obsessed with the subjective part. 
Few years later, I'm a bit of both however one thing I will never do is tell someone's opinion is wrong... It can be bad  but never wrong. 

Kelvin


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> one thing I will never do is tell someone's opinion is wrong... It can be bad  but never wrong.
> 
> Kelvin


I guess you missed this post a few posts below the one you quoted.



sqnut said:


> Agreed, both sides are entiled to opinions bit only one side is taking the others opinion as a slight and hence reason for personality bashing.
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, or you'll get called for cussing . There is a difference between saying "Sinfoni is the best speaker I have ever heard" and saying "Sinfoni is the best speaker in the world, i.e. definitive gold standard". The first is an opinion, which everyone is entitled to, the second is a statement of fact. The facts have to be backed up. If you can't see the difference between the two, :shrug:


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Lucky for me, I've learned how to narrow down my purchase without auditioning bunches of speakers. I'm not downing anybody that prefers that route. I just don't have patience for that.

I think this all goes back to the SQ TSX not getting the response he wants about the statements he makes about these drivers.

I feel responsible for helping stir this up again as I'm determined that Andy didn't say anything ridiculous or out of character. I'm sorry, SQ TSX, that you didn't appreciate Andy's remarks but I don't think he was saying that in an effort to undermine you or other owners. He was basically saying that "just because somebody likes the sound of a Funky Pup...doesn't mean it's quality".....he's stating this from the standpoint that there isn't enough data to derive any concise statements about Sinfoni speakers. It doesn't mean they came out of a raging dumpster fire. But it doesn't mean they walk on water either. It means nobody can make any conclusions about their (oh geez)...quality.

Preference doesn't determine quality.

This is clearly a case of text not carrying the appropriate tone to help convey the communicator's intent. When we don't speak each others' language we usually get upset.

Now opinions are flying as if people are attacking Sinfoni owners. Wow.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

clean to me would be a good sound...clinical to me denotes a negative. So its maybe harder to accept than you think.

If i heard something that i thought was "clinical" i would say its lacking in low end and sounded thin to me. Clinical = Uninvolving.

That was my reason for asking...its hard to describe music in words like clinical or sterile. Warm we can all grasp...as for bright or hard.

And then to take it to the next level and say an "amp" sounds clinical....well thats just crazy talk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> clean to me would be a good sound...clinical to me denotes a negative. So its maybe harder to accept than you think.
> 
> If i heard something that i thought was "clinical" i would say its lacking in low end and sounded thin to me. Clinical = Uninvolving.
> 
> ...


so you going to give me a chance to hear some of these sinfonis?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

This is just me talking. 

If I spent that much or ever do bite the bullet and get them, I'd say they are the best ever, untouchable, God of all drivers


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> and this convo is why i dont trust subjective reviews from people i dont know or trust anymore, much like this whole debate


It's why I get such a kick out of seeing people use audiophile adjectives. How legitimate can something really be when nobody can even describe it or agree on what it means? :laugh: I'll be honest, when I see someone use an audiophile adjective they immediately lose credibility in my eyes.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> clean to me would be a good sound...clinical to me denotes a negative. So its maybe harder to accept than you think.
> 
> If i heard something that i thought was "clinical" i would say its lacking in low end and sounded thin to me. Clinical = Uninvolving.
> 
> ...



Semantics will always be an issue I suppose. Perhaps a better solution would be refer to perceived distortion levels & comparison to a common sought after response like Fletcher Munson.


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## Littlejerryseinfeld (Nov 15, 2015)

hurrication said:


> It's why I get such a kick out of seeing people use audiophile adjectives. How legitimate can something really be when nobody can even describe it or agree on what it means? :laugh: I'll be honest, when I see someone use an audiophile adjective they immediately lose credibility in my eyes.


Can you articulate every feeling you acquire from your human senses into words? I doubt it.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

deeppinkdiver said:


> You guys will love this.. I like their amps too, alot. Polishing all of this Sinfoni, no knobs to be found.


when I see this picture I think "somebody's sleeping on the couch, if that is a couch"


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Lucky for me, I've learned how to narrow down my purchase without auditioning bunches of speakers. I'm not downing anybody that prefers that route. I just don't have patience for that.
> 
> I think this all goes back to the SQ TSX not getting the response he wants about the statements he makes about these drivers.
> 
> ...


but why are Sinfoni owners taking the dramatic road, if everyone seems to agree that we aren't as a group, picking on the brand?

I mean, we have a lot of posts that attribute cost to a Critical Mass kind of mission statement, where the retail cost structure doesn't correlate, but those aren't necessarily speaking to quality as much as a deviation for nominal price structuring in the high end driver markets.

I do not know if Sinfoni has a hat trick, that with the use of their products I can transcend the field of commoner selections and achieve "musical instruments" graphical presentation, even as the gold standard for audio is, and pretty much has been for a while, the ability to faithfully reproduce what is on the recording without adding or subtracting, which essentially means flat in electronic signal terms, (amps) and "target curve" for end-user listening suites.


I'd like to believe, even after all of the promises, the Xtant "veil lifted" and the rest, newer adjectives replacing old ones, that someone does come along and upsets the audio cart to the degree that Sinfoni owners are saying this product does, but perhaps I've grown too stubborn in my ways, perhaps I lack imagination, perhaps I've accepted the party line and no longer expect to be wowed at any moment by some new audio fix, like a new drug to shoot up and wait for the actual effects and not some dealer's spiel about how bad ass that stuff is...

er...


well, that's imagination for ya.




anyways, I liked your post and it does convey information without actually becoming condescending towards those who drop several thou on audio with the value-added nut-hugger applied towards their persons...


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Let's leave the product aside for a bit. I am getting sick, pissed and tired of the Sinfoni nut huggers act of fake, 'holier than thou', 'hurt feelings', et al. I have seen too much of this crap in 30 years of corporate life. It generally emanates from slimy people with an agenda. It's lame, it's old and the said nut huggers need to look into the mirror before they talk about terms like 'superiority', 'bias', 'pack mentality', 'ignorance', 'attitude' etc.
> 
> *OK... you got me...
> I'M A SINFONI NUT HUGGER.... there... are you happy now... ?
> ...


*Andy is stating his narrow view that the 100% scientific approach is THE GOLDEN STANDARD by which ALL should be measured... That's fine for him... I do NOT follow the same belief. As I've said before, it's a combination of science and experience... This is MY belief... I will not waiver from it...

Please provide precise examples of "shameless plugging"....
Please provide precise examples of a "condescending attitude" toward any other brand....

Please do these things...*


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Jeremy they busting your balls because they can, seriously, stop responding. 
Did you installed it for them or yourself?

You like it, you spent YOUR money I`m sure doesn`t fell from the sky- enjoy it while you can.Life is too short to defend your choices.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Jeremy they busting your balls because they can, seriously, stop responding.
> Did you installed it for them or yourself?
> 
> You like it, you spent YOUR money I`m sure doesn`t fell from the sky- enjoy it while you can.Life is too short to defend your choices.


Brother I know this.... I'm just hard headed... 

It just bothers me that people will run down a product they have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with... It also bothers me that others use this ignorance for their own ends...

Oh well... maybe I do just need to sign off.... nothing positive coming from these threads...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

you lost me at "science is not 100%.." 

"i am not connected to sinfoni in any way. that said i am friends with the owner of the company and i trust what he tells me. i am also friends with the us distributor.. i trust what he tells me" the first sentence completely contradicts the second and third

also.. how can you trust what they say when you cant even trust their graphs?


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> you lost me at "science is not 100%.."
> 
> *Science can NEVER be 100%... if so new discoveries will never happen...*
> 
> ...


*I can say that because I TRUST THEM....*

*I'll also say... weather I know anyone or not... I would not waste my money on anything that I did not completely believe it...
I believe in Sinfoni...*


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## Littlejerryseinfeld (Nov 15, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> you lost me at "science is not 100%.."
> 
> "i am not connected to sinfoni in any way. that said i am friends with the owner of the company and i trust what he tells me. i am also friends with the us distributor.. i trust what he tells me" the first sentence completely contradicts the second and third
> 
> also.. how can you trust what they say when you cant even trust their graphs?


How about just trusting your own ears? 

/thread.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> How about just trusting your own ears?
> 
> /thread.


Oh no.... I've been told numerous times I can't trust MY ears.. they will lie to me... Completely unreliable...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> How about just trusting your own ears?
> 
> /thread.


sorry. id prefer not to gamble 5k + on a set that either measures like complete ass, or spend 5k from a company that isnt competent enough to measure their speakers properly


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SQ_TSX said:


> Brother I know this.... I'm just hard headed...
> 
> It just bothers me that people will run down a product they have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with... It also bothers me that others use this ignorance for their own ends...
> 
> Oh well... maybe I do just need to sign off.... nothing positive coming from these threads...


Not as hard headed as some others posting here...

You don`t have to defend your choices.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Oh god, this is getting closer and closer to closing time.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SQ_TSX said:


> Oh no.... I've been told numerous times I can't trust MY ears.. they will lie to me... Completely unreliable...


I`ve heard too many perfectly measuring electronics that sounds like ****.
When you have limited experience with real products- published measurements is all you have to go with.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> sorry. id prefer not to gamble 5k + on a set that either measures like complete ass, or spend 5k from a company that isnt competent enough to measure their speakers properly


That's great to know....

Please don't....

and just so you know... I didn't gamble on anything... sometimes... TRUST is a grand thing...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Oh god, this is getting closer and closer to closing time.


I think it reached that point about 28 pages back.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> Oh god, this is getting closer and closer to closing time.


Up to you brother....

*I do want to say one more thing...

If this complete debacle has peaked your interest in ANY way.... either prove or disprove...

I ask one thing.... please search out a Sinfoni dealer and listen to the product first hand and make your own mind up... I think I know the outcome...

Also... believe it or not.... Best wishes to all our Forum Members.

I'm out.*


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_TSX said:


> *I can say that because I TRUST THEM....*


never said your a disgusting slime ball. i have nothing against you. just not understanding why this company is getting praise on this forum, especially if you go back to what it was founded on. using scientific data to find the best bang for buck. this company is turning out to be just like LP where the users (and even the owner) make crazy, and sometimes physically impossible claims about their product, then their reason for them is "you just gotta hear it".. yeah ill pass. but i am always up to listen, which is why ive been trying to get in contact with minisq. ill be in his area this coming weekend. maybe ill make it to TN one day or even if your ever up in the NY area ill get to listen. i doubt many people, if any at all have that set in my area


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## Littlejerryseinfeld (Nov 15, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> sorry. id prefer not to gamble 5k + on a set that either measures like complete ass, or spend 5k from a company that isnt competent enough to measure their speakers properly


No offense, but you make no sense whatsoever. 

You buy audio products to listen to, as a consumer. In the end, it's all about the music. I'm not saying you would even like the speaker in question. However, if you did upon listening to it, then the graph doesn't mean jack ****. It means that you get enjoyment from the product every day in your own car. 

Now if you like a speaker enough to buy it, after listening to it, and then see a graph that looks like **** which, in turn, makes you rip the speakers out of your car because of it; you have other issues.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

will new graphs ease the pain the scientists feel, when presented by an obviously incorrect FR data?

I would believe so, however I also would like to see it in-car, and have a known quantity (read: quality) also graphed, in exactly the same spot/location, using the exact same quality de-coupled mounting pads, etc.

This would be where the buck stops.

Because right now we simply have too much owner bias to overcome, and it's too hard to get past the flowery prose of advertisement offered thus far.

If it can be demonstrably proved that Sinfoni Grandioso is able to muster a graph in-car equal, if not superior, using multi-mode miking and averaging techniques to that of the stand-by Scan Speak Illuminator/Revelator test group, then buddy...



then we can all wax quixotic about heretofore unknown realms of audio accessed by the Sinfoni electric, yes... 



indeedy?


too much...?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> Now if you like a speaker enough to buy it, after listening to it, and then see a graph that looks like **** which, in turn, makes you rip the speakers out of your car because of it; you have other issues.


:laugh::laugh: good point. you would be surprised how many people on this very forum do exactly that.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> No offense, but you make no sense whatsoever.
> 
> You buy audio products to listen to, as a consumer. In the end, it's all about the music. I'm not saying you would even like the speaker in question. However, if you did upon listening to it, then the graph doesn't mean jack ****. It means that you get enjoyment from the product every day in your own car.
> 
> Now if you like a speaker enough to buy it, after listening to it, and then see a graph that looks like **** which, in turn, makes you rip the speakers out of your car because of it; you have other issues.


isn't the reverse of this argument, then, that people who can't trust a graph and have to "listen for themselves" actually just biased because they have the disposable income to select speakers that most of us cannot, and want to attribute a higher quality to those speakers based on their outlay, or buy-in?


I see that used all the time in every walk of life where finer things are presented, and bought for the express purpose of saying "I have the best" and then using the retail price as proof of the argument.


the person who clearly seems most upset by the subsequent collective lack of faith in their judgement, is also the one with clear ties to the company and extended time frames for using their products.


all the while claiming there is no affiliation.


any other case, or example, or whatever, the blinders would come off and it would be analyzed as if it were just another brand with just another product, but the blinders stay on, and the thread grows...


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## boricua69 (Oct 14, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> never said your a disgusting slime ball. i have nothing against you. just not understanding why this company is getting praise on this forum, especially if you go back to what it was founded on. using scientific data to find the best bang for buck. this company is turning out to be just like LP where the users (and even the owner) make crazy, and sometimes physically impossible claims about their product, then their reason for them is "you just gotta hear it".. yeah ill pass. but i am always up to listen, which is why ive been trying to get in contact with minisq. ill be in his area this coming weekend. maybe ill make it to TN one day or even if your ever up in the NY area ill get to listen. i doubt many people, if any at all have that set in my area


So only 3 guys has own this set?
Mini Sq, SQ_TSX and the Devil.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> No offense, but you make no sense whatsoever.
> 
> You buy audio products to listen to, as a consumer. In the end, it's all about the music. I'm not saying you would even like the speaker in question. However, if you did upon listening to it, then the graph doesn't mean jack ****. It means that you get enjoyment from the product every day in your own car.
> 
> Now if you like a speaker enough to buy it, after listening to it, and then see a graph that looks like **** which, in turn, makes you rip the speakers out of your car because of it; you have other issues.


would you not want to get what you pay for? i prefer accurate sound, but idk about you or anyone else


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

boricua69 said:


> So only 3 guys has own this set?
> Mini Sq, SQ_TSX and the Devil.


mini sq has the maestoso mids i think. not the grandioso


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> :laugh::laugh: good point. you would be surprised how many people on this very forum do exactly that.


ive never actually seen that. i have seen people not consider speakers because of bad specs, but not get them first without looking, then rip them out because they found out specs were bad. id think that if a person even knew what thhose specs were, they would be at least slightly interested enough to look at them before dropping thousands of dollars


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> ive never actually seen that. i have seen people not consider speakers because of bad specs, but not get them first without looking, then rip them out because they found out specs were bad. id think that if a person even knew what thhose specs were, they would be at least slightly interested enough to look at them before dropping thousands of dollars


Come on Nick!
You never seen people constantly changing equipment in their cars here?
it could be any reason, we can`t say that it was not that one mentioned.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Come on Nick!
> You never seen people constantly changing equipment in their cars here?
> it could be any reason, we can`t say that it was not that one mentioned.


i do all the time. but NEVER heard of what you said being a reason before. not even anything like that


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## Littlejerryseinfeld (Nov 15, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> would you not want to get what you pay for? i prefer accurate sound, but idk about you or anyone else


Absolutely. Of course. I trust my ears, though. I don't put all my faith in a graph that will change as soon as I install the driver in my door. If I like the way a speaker sounds, that's what I buy. 

That is why I said to just trust your ears. You are taking a full blown stance that buying speakers from manufacturers who present a perfect frequency response is the one and only way to buy a speaker, and that graphs provided tell the whole story.

How about this? Why are you not buying these speakers? 

Blues Car Audio

See. Even though they present a pretty perfect graph, I can assume before you even respond, you will take issue with this company as well for some reason or another. They aren't flashy enough, don't have exotic materials, etc. Therefore, they don't present good value for the money. BUT BUT BUT BUT....the graph is superb!

The fact of the matter is, most people here on this forum search for these factors only (which is absurd):

1 - cheap
2 - forum boner status
3 - tons of others on this forum stroking your ego for buying that product

I've never heard the Sinfoni drivers, but from experience, I wouldn't dismiss them without a listen.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> Absolutely. Of course. I trust my ears, though. I don't put all my faith in a graph that will change as soon as I install the driver in my door. If I like the way a speaker sounds, that's what I buy.
> 
> That is why I said to just trust your ears. You are taking a full blown stance that buying speakers from manufacturers who present a perfect frequency response is the one and only way to buy a speaker, and that graphs provided tell the whole story.
> 
> ...


i dont buy those because when the owner of blues/LP comes into a facebook group saying they can play flat down to 20hz in doors at high volumes, but only on his amplifiers, i tend to put them on the "do not buy" list  (yes that actually happened)


and no, i dont buy based just on response. i do TRY to listen before i buy. but i usually dont consider anything if it has bad specs and graphs. why should i? id rather look for something that has a better chance of doing well. then theres zaph, erin, etc who do more than just FR measurements that provide even more insight into how speakers they have tested perform. why dont we get one of these speakers to him since we cant trust the published stuff from sinfoni?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i do all the time. but NEVER heard of what you said being a reason before. not even anything like that


because people won`t admit that if caught with their pants down. 
Sometime you do that without realising why only because influence from outside.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> Come on Nick!
> You never seen people constantly changing equipment in their cars here?
> it could be any reason, we can`t say that it was not that one mentioned.


Happens all the time.
That's why they call it "forum boners".


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

People on here mostly change due to something new supposedly being the bees knees claimed by another user or company. It's a bad habit nonetheless, but it's what we do. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Come on Nick!
> You never seen people constantly changing equipment in their cars here?
> it could be any reason, we can`t say that it was not that one mentioned.


some people buy the boner, then find a couple of not-glowing posts about the boner, and have to sell the boner for a loss.

it's how fickle this market/product is, that someone would invest time installing a set of drivers they bought on sale authorized and warrantied, then pull them out after hearing them and finding no real fault there at all, just that they perceive the same things that someone alludes in a post, even if that person has no first-hand experience with the product at all!


and it happens a lot. It is usually attributed to other things, like owner buyer-remorse, or "learning" after a while that a forum boner is just a discounted set of average speakers a lot of times.

But let there be a couple of posts from someone people trust as having an opinion worth something, and they'll start unscrewing perfectly fine sounding product.


And that's great!


We all love a good deal, and the guy that pulls out perfect-running gear because he thinks he'll do better with another brand and/or another system design change, is what makes the classified section work.

So anything I can do to get those Grandioso down to a reasonable buy-in of say, $999.99, or whatever...





I think that the Kelly Blue Book has yet to get Grandioso's listed but if we are persistent then enough of them will end up on the used markets, and we can give them a real value rating based on resale value that matures them to the market dynamics.


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## hurrication (Dec 19, 2011)

Littlejerryseinfeld said:


> Can you articulate every feeling you acquire from your human senses into words? I doubt it.


No, absolutely not. But the difference is that I don't make up BS words about it that don't correlate to anything to try and make myself sound sophisticated.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Audiophile- One who can afford the tools of the professional trade and buys them because he/she can.

Pro-hobbyist- One who can't afford the tools of the professional trade so they whine, *****, rant blah blah about audiophiles out of pure jealousy.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Going to end this on a high note.




SQ_TSX said:


> *...
> 
> If this complete debacle has peaked your interest in ANY way.... either prove or disprove...
> 
> ...


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