# Pioneer TS-W12PRS 12" Subwoofer - long term review + test data(npdang)



## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Well, I guess this has been a long time coming. I got the chance to get a hold of this sub from a fellow over on CarAudio back somewhere around mid summer. The sub first went into my longtime generic 1.5 cu.ft. box that all my subs went into. It's simple, heavily stuffed, and wired for DVC. I later built a 2.6 cu.ft. @ 26Hz ported box specifically for the PRS to its measured T/S specs.

I guess I will start off with some eye candy.

































*Build Quality:*
The PRS subwoofer is a beefy unit, solidly built, lots of metal, lots of heft. Construction is solid. Where there was glue, there was lots of it (surround, dust cap) but cleanly done.

*Sound Flavor:*
The overall sound is a little different from other subs I've run. A couple things that jump out at you is the quickness and authority in presence. It has come to be something I call "gusto." The sound is also unique in its dryness in sound. I'm not sure if this is something common among kevlar cones or what. It's my first kevlar woofer, so I'm not sure. There is a little bit of coloration here. I'm not sure what to attribute it to specifically but you end up with this dry but clean sound. 

Tonality:
The sub is tonally neutral without any particular focus towards high or low bass frequencies. Much of this is a matter of box design and curve shaping, but the subwoofer itself doesn't particularly stand out anywhere.

Detail:
Detail is very good. The sub doesn't lose pace and feels right at home playing 40Hz or 150Hz. Presence is dry and crisp with good power and authority in presentation and every note comes through with gusto. There is no muddiness or thickness overlaying the notes. The sub does feel slightly fast in the sense that it rushes or overpowers the notes, yet at the same time this makes for a more upfront and upbeat presentation that may be desirable despite being slightly unnatural. 

*Usability:*
The sub really has no place it can't play. It has a broad, flat response, and output will simply be limited by the box configuration, EQing, low pass filter, and subsonic filter used. The sub is happy playing up high or way down low and feels up to the pace and controlled everywhere.

The up front, authoritative nature may or may not be a desirable trait. The dry sound may or may not be desirable as well. The application will really depend on what you're looking for as well as your goals. I think the light and crisp sound will still make this favorable over many smoother, thicker sounding subs.

*Power:*
I think this is the greatest benefit of this sub. The efficiency is exceptionally good as far as subwoofers go, and it can make a whole lot of use of whatever power you give it. The sub will also get incredibly loud with great content if you want it to, and it won't be heavy on the alternator doing so.

*Design comments:*
There are a few oddities with this sub that I'd like to point out. The main one is the mounting holes. For some reason, Pioneer decided not to make the holes exactly standard. The hole diameter is actually slightly larger than normal, say by a quarter inch. I found it kind of odd and I actually ended up drilling a second set of holes specifically for this sub in my box. Second, the wire terminals are screw down. I know some prefer spring loaded ones, some may not care. The sub is heavy. It probably doesn't have to be, but it is. It's also quite shallow at just 5" deep which is a nice plus.

*T/S Parameters*
The previous owner was kind enough to provide T/S specs. A friend of his happened to have access to some testing equipment(part of his job or otherwise). I never really got into the details, but it was a nice touch on the sale of the sub to me:








_**Npdang did run a T/S test, but the numbers were a major deviation from Pioneer's and the above said specs. Maybe something happened. I don't know. I'm confirming with him on the testing. (retest?) He can comment on this as well._

*---You can thank npdang for the rest of the data. He was gracious enough to test the PRS out and provide some data for you folks.---*

*BL*
The BL curve is pretty neat. It's 90% flat down the back side and 80% flat down the front. There is some offset of 5mm forward. Xmax seems to be a very healthy 18mm-20mm which is actually quite a bit above what Pioneer specs it.:









*CMS*
The CMS curve is pretty normal and progressive. Again it shows the 5mm foward offset. Suspension is the limiting mechanical factor of the sub, prevelent from the relatively small surround(for a sub).:









*Le*
Le is low, more like a midwoofer than a sub. Le stays within 70% of peak.:









*Thermal*
Here's the temperature/power data. I'm not really sure what to make of it, but it's pretty straight forward. With the sensitivity of the sub, you're really not using all that much power most of the time, so thermal handling isn't exactly a big deal.









*Response & THD*
This is the frequency response and THD of the sub. The sub offers a very broad, flat frequency response to play with. One thing npdang pointed out was the lack of an inductance hump pointing to shorting rings being used. Distortion is so-so. Npdang ran two tests as he thought he might have been clipping the amp in the first. Frequency response showed similar but distortion varied a bit between both. The first one was the original run he did. The commonalities were the bump around 270Hz and the rising distortion above that.
*Original run*








*Retest*


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Well, I've already given relative comparisons between the subs I've used.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28045

I guess if I were to discuss the uniqueness of this sub versus others I'm familiar with, a few things become abundantly clear. 

One, this subwoofer is unusually efficient. Output per watt is very high, and the sub is very capable of making good use of whatever power you've got. Of just my PG X400.1, the sub was capable of enough output to pretty much completely drown out all other sound, well this coupled with cabin noise basically dominates any associated music.

Two, the frequency response is very broad and flat, making this a very versatile sub. If I were to compare it in terms of frequency response, is a very, very close to the Dayton HF 12". In fact, if they are modeled together, they pretty much overlay each other. About the only difference is the Dayton uses a little larger box.

Three the sub is well mannered everywhere it plays. I've run some subs that were happy down low but unusable up high and subs that were happy up high but sloppy or lacking sensitivity down low. The Pioneer and the Sonicraft were the only two that felt happy playing everywhere and remained controlled, detailed, and well mannered, well the DIYMA too.  The Pioneer just offers a little flatter response than the Sonicraft, I think primarily because I haven't given the Sonicraft the box size it needs. The Pioneer is a little cleaner, crisper in presence and with more authority behind each note.

The sub is compact and rather capable. Box size is decently small at 1 cu.ft. sealed. Ideal ported is getting large at 2.6 cu.ft., but this could be lowered as long as you are willing to give up a little low end sensitivity. Even exceeding rated rms, the sub never steps beyond xmax, sealed or ported. The sub is relatively compact at just 5" mounting depth which may favor some shallow mounting options.

Where's the weakness? Well, it seems distortion is the weakness, at least from the test results. This makes some sense from my listening experience. I initially thought of the particular dry sound of the Pioneer as something akin to its Kevlar cone. With this being the first Kevlar woofer, I didn't know what to expect. However, distortion can create this type of presence. It's kind of a shame that there is a bit of noise. I think the sub would be more transparent and better blend in if there was less. I just can't say what is the source or if there may be an easy fix if the source could be located. Nothing particuar stands out listening to the sub though. It's not noisy or intrusive, but, there's enough where the sub doesn't become invisible and the overall sound has this dryness to it. In a car environment and in the frequency range subs are normally played, even a considerable level of THD isn't that big of a thing. I would doubt most people would even notice or care. In the end, I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, and this remains a very good package.

The one surprise for me from the testing was excursion. The sub is only rated by Pioneer at 13.5mm. Having 18-20mm is quite the bonus, although you're constrained to just over 20mm mechanically. It's nice to see that most of its usable range is quite linear.


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## billyrohm (Nov 9, 2007)

I'm no hard core audio guy and I dont really know what all of the parameters and charts mean but I do know volume and I can tell you for certain that the TS-W12PRS provides considerably more output off of half of my PG ZX475Ti than the PG Rsd12 that I have. As stated above the sub is very efficent and should be looked at by anybody that has limited power.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Had a RSD12d. It's sensitivity is pretty low. It's also got crap for linear excursion which was a bad thing for the way it was geared(large box sub with great low frequency sensitivity). The only think the RSD has going for it is good low frequency sensitivity in a sealed enclosure that's pretty much on par with many ported designs. Now if only it had 20mm or more xmax to make some use of it.

I'm glad PG went ahead and developed the RSD Competition sub. It's more traditionally geared and is a more flexable package. It's probably pretty decent and seems to have improvements in a lot of the right areas. It's a sub I wouldn't mind beating on one some day. Some promising notes: transparent sound, stiffer cone via foam poly cone, better detail. Some more of the same: low sensitivity, preferring lots of power. I'm quite glad to see the cone change. It's not exactly revolutionary as it's been used to varying degrees for a long time. Pioneer had been using a foam oriented poly cone for many years. Heck, I think the Sonicraft sub I have is made the same way. If so, I can attest to its rigidity and lightness.
http://phoenixphorum.com/rsd-competition-12-vt3753.html
For the many RSD 6.5" components fans, I would expect a few eager guinea pigs.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Nice review MVW2, thanks for that. The Pioneer sub is a great looking piece of gear, that's for sure. And the 5" depth is nice too. Did you give the sub much time at all in a sealed box before going to the 2.6ft^3 ported box? If so, what did you think of it sealed?

If you were to do an A/B comparison between the Pioneer and the DIYMA, what would you say the main differences are? 

Zach


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## dyno (Jan 15, 2008)

mvw2 said:


> Had a RSD12d. It's sensitivity is pretty low. It's also got crap for linear excursion which was a bad thing for the way it was geared(large box sub with great low frequency sensitivity). The only think the RSD has going for it is good low frequency sensitivity in a sealed enclosure that's pretty much on par with many ported designs. Now if only it had 20mm or more xmax to make some use of it.
> 
> I'm glad PG went ahead and developed the RSD Competition sub. It's more traditionally geared and is a more flexable package. It's probably pretty decent and seems to have improvements in a lot of the right areas. It's a sub I wouldn't mind beating on one some day. Some promising notes: transparent sound, stiffer cone via foam poly cone, better detail. Some more of the same: low sensitivity, preferring lots of power. I'm quite glad to see the cone change. It's not exactly revolutionary as it's been used to varying degrees for a long time. Pioneer had been using a foam oriented poly cone for many years. Heck, I think the Sonicraft sub I have is made the same way. If so, I can attest to its rigidity and lightness.
> http://phoenixphorum.com/rsd-competition-12-vt3753.html
> For the many RSD 6.5" components fans, I would expect a few eager guinea pigs.



I just bought a RSDC104 so will be interesting to see. Will be a few months before I get it installed though. Modelled at a higher senstivity than RE SE10so I'm hoping it's not too power hungry as I'm only putting about 300-350 watts into it.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Well, they're quite a bit different from each other. The Pioneer has a good deal higher sensitivity than the DIYMA. The Pioneer is crisper in presence with more impact, however this gusto, as I like to call it, is a little unnatural. The box size of course varies with the Pioneer requiring over double the space of the DIYMA but with the benefit of a more extended low frequency sensitivity. The DIYMA of course has less compression and low notes feel looser and more full-bodied and more robust while the Pioneer sounds a little more constrained/controlled and crisp. I assume the aggressive surround would explain this. The DIYMA is completely transparent, smooth, open, "real" while the Pioneer is dry and a more light and crisp in feel with more edge and bite, although slightly unnaturally so. I think the Dayton Reference series does the "light and crisp" thing better but still has an unnatural, slightly off "squeaky clean" presence. Still, it's more believable in the "real" sense than the Pioneer. The Dayton just lacks the presence of power and weight, so the Dayton feels weak and without heft or authority down low. As well, the Dayton(HF 12"), at least for me seemed somewhat muddy/sloppy/uncontrolled/floppy/disconnected down low. It's weird to explain. For such a detailed driver (Dayton) that can play to pretty much 1kHz cleanly, it's a strange thing to say it sounds muddy down low. It's sort of like taking a small midwoofer, crossing really low and playing it beyond xmax where it muddies and feels poorly controlled. The Dayton only offers 12mm xmax, and sealed, it does use it up quite readily, so this may be the culprit. The Pioneer pretty much does the same task as the Dayton and improves upon every poor aspect, offering more weight/presense/power down low and a crisper, more controlled sound throughout. It's just a dirtier and less transparent/invisible sound than the Dayton and DIYMA but more fun and upbeat than both.

I just had to throw the Dayton in there because I perceive the Dayton HF 12" and the Pioneer PRS 12" as very similar in nature and use but each a little different in presentation.

I ran the Pioneer for a little while sealed, not sure exactly how long though, month maybe? I don't really recall. However, it was in a well stuffed 1.5 cu.ft. box, and my car is really poor with cabin gain. Bottom end will always feel a little light without some EQ boost, but the sub was happy and well mannered. The only subs that fit well sealed in my car are ones that basically can extend to about 30Hz before dropping -3dB. The Sonicraft I ran sounded really well and was "about right" out of the box but needed a larger enclosure than the 1.5 cu.ft. one. The PG RSD had great bottom end but had no excursion to do anything with it and really muddy and thick in higher frequencies(something the RSDComp should fair much better with). Otherwise, everything else needs some level of EQing or needs to be put in a ported box. I have only heard the Dayton sealed and the DIYMA only ported. The Dayton was borrowed from my brother, and I'm not about to build a 3.5 cu.ft. ported box for something I'm not going to use long term. The DIYMA lacks low end sensitivity sealed, so I know I would have to come in with a bit of EQing if I ran a sealed configuration. Ported was the only appropriate step, well passive radiator more appropriate for the tiny box, lol.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

npdang got back to me with new T/S specs.

npdang's test
















seller's friend's test








Pioneer's specs









Two different times, two different testing systems, two different people. Beats me...lol. The one I got from the seller was tested in parallel, npdang's in series. I don't think much changes other than the BL rating and Le. Pioneer has info for both configurations listed for reference to what they say.

Box size will vary a little bit depending on what specs you go with so maybe find a happy medium. 

Sealed:
1.2
1.25
1.4

Ported:
2.5 @ 29Hz
2.6 @ 26.5Hz
2.95 @ 25Hz

...in order of specs listed above. These are I guess you could call "ideal flat," sealed of Q 0.707, ported to flattest response based off specs.

Oh, and I came across this in the manual, so I'll post it up for fun.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

Please post a review of the RSDC104 when you have time. Thanks.



dyno said:


> I just bought a RSDC104 so will be interesting to see. Will be a few months before I get it installed though. Modelled at a higher senstivity than RE SE10so I'm hoping it's not too power hungry as I'm only putting about 300-350 watts into it.


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## acidbass303 (Dec 3, 2010)

excellent review, i have it and it is great


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