# Audiofrog Amps and other brands of High Res Amps



## lpreston (Dec 29, 2006)

So other than seeing other DIY members post about the brand, I have no experience. Most seem to agree they have great sound quality. That said, I'm looking for amps capable of High Res frequencies. It appears their 4 channel is capable. Is anybody running one? Live listened to a system with them in it? 

Second question. Suggestions on other brands of High Res capable amps besides Brax? I already have one kidney on an IOU....


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

What are high res frequencies?


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## lpreston (Dec 29, 2006)

miniSQ said:


> What are high res frequencies?


From what I understand, those are capable of 40k. I have also seen a few at 35k.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

lpreston said:


> From what I understand, those are capable of 40k. I have also seen a few at 35k.


Can you hear that high? Last I checked, humans can hear 20 hz to 20000 hz, and can feel lower frequencies, but can't hear or feel higher than 20000 hz, and that's with absolutely perfect hearing, which none of us have.


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## lpreston (Dec 29, 2006)

ckirocz28 said:


> Can you hear that high? Last I checked, humans can hear 20 hz to 20000 hz, and can feel lower frequencies, but can't hear or feel higher than 20000 hz, and that's with absolutely perfect hearing, which none of us have.


No. But I have read that the existence of those frequencies makes the ones we can hear richer. Has to be a reason some high-end equipment is capable of it if there was no merit.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

lpreston said:


> No. But I have read that the existence of those frequencies makes the ones we can hear richer. Has to be a reason some high-end equipment is capable of it if there was no merit.


i think thats a rabbit hole that is not worth going down. Unless you have unlimited funds, and the ability to understand it and tune it.


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## Myface (May 21, 2021)

Yeah, marketing! 
So any who, I'm getting my audiofrog amps installed with my focal utopia speakers next month. Should be ready by July. 
I'm going to have @Samb have a listen in P.A. So we'll see how that goes 🤪


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Sony XM-GS4 has a frequency range up to 100khz (-3db)

Don't know if it's good for anything more than highest number on a spec sheet, but it's at least about $6200 less than a $6500 Brax to try out


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

lpreston said:


> No. But I have read that the existence of those frequencies makes the ones we can hear richer. Has to be a reason some high-end equipment is capable of it if there was no merit.


I think that really applies to the frequencies beyond our hearing loss up to 20000 hz (maybe 15000-20000). The thing to really take into consideration is the higher switching frequencies needed to play cleanly up to those higher frequencies really moves the possible noise far outside of our capability to hear. It's more a quality thing than a Hi-Res frequency thing, Hi-Res is just a marketing buzz word.
So, I'm not saying don't buy a Hi-Res amp, just don't buy one because of the Hi-Res tag.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

These ones should sound very, _cough, _similar to the Audiofrog amps









Emphaser EA-MT4 Monolith 4 Channel Class D Power Amplifier 600 Watt RMS | eBay


Measuring only 212 x 35 x 110 mm, the very compact EA-MT4 offers high performance in the smallest of spaces. The exceptional heat sink design made of die-cast aluminum enables significantly smaller dimensions while maintaining excellent temperature management. The optimized Class-D amplifier...



www.ebay.com


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## OrangeTang19x (Jun 21, 2020)

WOW are the Emphaser EA-MT4 guts identical also? cause the Audiofrog A150.4D is $699!!!!!


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

They exist because people like buying gear on numbers, rather than merit.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Emphaser EA | eBay


Buy and sell electronics, cars, fashion apparel, collectibles, sporting goods, digital cameras, baby items, coupons, and everything else on eBay, the world's online marketplace



www.ebay.com


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

Wow, I had really thought about the AF amps due to their size, but at half the cost of a pair... It looks like the only difference is the CNC aluminum crossover cover. What came first, the chicken or the egg?


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Good looking out @SkizeR.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Same internals?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

DaveG said:


> Same internals?


I've got a friend who's an AudioFrog Dealer... he's going to buy one of the Em-Phaser amps, so we can open them both up and compare guts.
I'll be interested to see if they are identical. If so, then you are paying 3X the price for the AudioFrog branded cover plate.


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

Very nice Skizer. I see this same thing occur a lot in subwoofers. When you go to China to actually manufacture the entire product there is nothing stopping them from producing the same design without the badging for others. Really the only power one might have is if they do enough volume to cause a lot of financial damage to the producer. Much larger brands would likely have that sort of capacity to deal with this or they could buy the manufactured pieces from a variety of businesses in China then assemble somewhere else where there is more control or a legal means to enforce something which is proprietary. I saw this when working at a car battery plant that produced roughly 1/3rd of the car batteries in the US. Same battery just different badging/cases. Interstate vs advanced auto same battery for example thou a car battery is far more simple than a circuit board with all the varieties of chips they have so not exactly a great comparison.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

JimmyDee said:


> I've got a friend who's an AudioFrog Dealer... he's going to buy one of the Em-Phaser amps, so we can open them both up and compare guts.
> I'll be interested to see if they are identical. If so, then you are paying 3X the price for the AudioFrog branded cover plate.


Playing the devil's advocate, one key difference is that with the Audiofrog amplifiers, you would have a USA warranty and support. But when the other amplifier in question is less than half the retail cost, *if* it turns out to have identical internals _*and*_ specs, is that piece of mind with the AF worth the extra cost?

Probably not for most people on this DIY forum. But it may be worthwhile to a general consumer who is having a shop install the amp or system.

If there is a problem, a reputable shop would handle the repair or replacement.

How quickly would they be able to source a replacement from Germany, or have it repaired?

And how does that cost factor in to their overhead and operating costs?

Do the Em-Phaser amplifiers go through the same QC regimen, testing, and acceptable tolerances at the build house that Andy has specified in his contract?

And will that German seller or source still be around next year???


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## Esscueonly (Nov 25, 2021)

LMAO! I knew there was a reason Andy got so defensive about his amps when he had his meltdown. I think I'll buy one of these knockoffs and rebrand it "Sound Salamander".


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

SNR and Damping Factor is different.


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## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

JimmyDee said:


> If so, then you are paying 3X the price for the AudioFrog branded cover plate.


Wouldn't the cover plate make the amp 20% louder? 😁


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## sprsonc (Oct 13, 2012)

Are the Em-phaser Monolith amps anything special or just another inexpensive Class D amp as others produce? That happens to be German owned.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

doeboy said:


> Very nice Skizer. I see this same thing occur a lot in subwoofers. When you go to China to actually manufacture the entire product there is nothing stopping them from producing the same design without the badging for others. Really the only power one might have is if they do enough volume to cause a lot of financial damage to the producer. Much larger brands would likely have that sort of capacity to deal with this or they could buy the manufactured pieces from a variety of businesses in China then assemble somewhere else where there is more control or a legal means to enforce something which is proprietary. I saw this when working at a car battery plant that produced roughly 1/3rd of the car batteries in the US. Same battery just different badging/cases. Interstate vs advanced auto same battery for example thou a car battery is far more simple than a circuit board with all the varieties of chips they have so not exactly a great comparison.


It is not like that, asians are behind a lot of designs of boards / amps. Company just contact lets say chinese manufacturer that they want 1kw amp and chinese offer the designs what they already have. The "original" company just needs to make heatsink what fits the PCB. So probably niether of those brands is the designer of this amp.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Esscueonly said:


> when he had his meltdown


Which one


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## Esscueonly (Nov 25, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Which one


The last one where he rage quit this forum.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

Esscueonly said:


> The last one where he rage quit this forum.


I missed that one but did see it mentioned on Facebook.


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## SPAZ (Jan 7, 2009)

Damn, the amp dials are even identical between those 2 amps.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

MANI 600 - The next level of design, features & compact amplification!


Sleek, smooth, stealth, all fitting adjectives for the MANI 600 amplifiers. Ushering in a new compact footprint while increasing performance!




www.b2audio.com





I posted these up a while back. Look similar but not sure they are the same


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Let's find out from the designer himself.


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

the similiarly priced Sony GS4 is compact,AB Class, is as silent as a grave and built to much better level of quality using automation/robotic manufacturing and uses quality audio parts such as Rubycon caps (audio grade?) , A1908 , C5100 Japanese transistors and so on.

for a 6 channel 3 way active setup you could run 2 x GS4 amps in 3 channel configuration (2 channels on each amp bridged) 1 seperately on the Left side channels and 1 for the Right side.

that would yield 70rms x2 = mid/tweeter + 200rms per midbass (rated 160 but far underrated ,check dyno results)


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Esscueonly said:


> LMAO! I knew there was a reason Andy got so defensive about his amps when he had his meltdown. I think I'll buy one of these knockoffs and rebrand it "Sound Salamander".


Since I was included in meltdown and the pure mention that rebranding/etc happens, this discussion has come full circle.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

bbfoto said:


> Playing the devil's advocate, one key difference is that with the Audiofrog amplifiers, you would have a USA warranty and support. But when the other amplifier in question is less than half the retail cost, *if* it turns out to have identical internals _*and*_ specs, is that piece of mind with the AF worth the extra cost?
> 
> Probably not for most people on this DIY forum. But it may be worthwhile to a general consumer who is having a shop install the amp or system.
> 
> ...


All good points, but its electronics. I really think the average consumer just doesn't know any better and goes with the name and name recognition.

It is a different product but similar situation. I recently went to the tailor and he brought in a new line of sport coats. He wanted me to try one on and told me his price point. He then pulled another jacket with a high end label and said want you to look at the two. They were basically identical. He said we work with the supplier and he said we bought the jacket from a competitor just to see. At the end of the manufacturing, the factory is putting a high end label on one coat and then a lower end label on the same coats. The buyers come and then they end up in the stores. It is the same coat. One jacket is priced around 700 bucks, they sell theirs for 250, again same coat. The tailor joked and said we got people paying 500 bucks more for the exact same coat, because they want the label on the inside. 

Back to the amps. I would bet most consumers if they know they can get an amp that may be 98% the same, coming out of the same manufacturing facility, they would save the money. Warranty has become less a deal to me. With electronics I usually hear, it is either DOA or dies shorty after. A few months back I talked with my local shop about this. They said almost all of the returns they have are user error and a slight bit are the actual equipment. They usually know if it equipment because a batch will all fail with the same issue. 

The same shop does agree about the support. They have helped several install android head units. They were clear they have about 2 companies they will work with a person to install. Simply because they dont sell them, but know the two companies work and they can track down support. The others they have just had issues that if something is not working with installation, no support. It also points to the when they have issues, the issues with the units were directly out of the box not months or years later.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

ckirocz28 said:


> Can you hear that high? Last I checked, humans can hear 20 hz to 20000 hz, and can feel lower frequencies, but can't hear or feel higher than 20000 hz, and that's with absolutely perfect hearing, which none of us have.


That falls in the harmonics section… I don’t quite understand it but you could sense frequencies upto 50khz or so…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> These ones should sound very, _cough, _similar to the Audiofrog amps
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If your gonna bring out an amps line why not employ a reputable amp builder and build something that’s not off the shelf and add a premium to it…

This is car audio in general… very few make their own stuff be it speakers or amps… 

These days it’s a trip to China and pick and chose what you want from packing to logo and call it something people know…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

Does anyone actually know the truth or is everyone simply assuming? Did someone's amp design get ripped off or is the packaging the same with different guts? I feel like there's a half dozen possible scenarios here, but everyone seems to be acting as if there is only one possibility...


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

[QUO


jheat2500 said:


> Does anyone actually know the truth or is everyone simply assuming? Did someone's amp design get ripped off or is the packaging the same with different guts? I feel like there's a half dozen possible scenarios here, but everyone seems to be acting as if there is only one possibility...


Go watch some youtube videos of amp repair guys and they point it out all the time while repairing. barevids would be one.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Iirc there was a lot of similar speculation regarding the SI amps, until someone bench tested the similar-looking knockoffs and found they made something like half the power.

Anyway, anyone have a link to the audiofrog thread being discussed here? Or was it deleted? It’s a shame if Andy really left as think I learned something every time he posted.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

This seems like the PPI Phantom/Soundstream Tarantula Nano, Polk, Hertz, NVX etc shared amp boards. It was found to be that there were 3 board options from the same build house and that the internal components were usually different between the brands. Each company picks what they want and what level of QC etc. This could very well be that same thing here.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

Andy has always been a great source for information. I always loved his analogies. He made electronics fun in an easy to understand way. Its a shame the man can't come here to unwind. I know the back story behind him and Skizer and Nick is justified for flaming him on this forum. The Chineese are known for ripping off designs. We don't know the real story here. I can understand using China for manufacturing, its called business. Just because you use an American company for something doesn't mean its American. I own a business. I would send items to an "American Lab" and found out they were shipping it to a China Lab. When they got it back from China they would then send it back to me with their "American" name on it. I found this out after years of doing business with them. Its called cutting out the middle man.


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## Dasyce (Sep 22, 2016)

These products are marketed to a specific crowd. How much is the average forum member / enthusiasts willing to pay?

JL Audio seems to be doing well building amplifiers in china, and no complaints there.

Guess Audiofrog is expected to answer to a higher standard?


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Anyway, anyone have a link to the audiofrog thread being discussed here?











Good Chinese Speaker Manufacturers on Alibaba?


So, I've been recently browsing Alibaba to save money on things, but as anyone who has ever used Alibaba knows, it's impossible to know the quality of the products listed. I'm sure some of the best speakers on Crutchfield are made in China and are probably listed on Alibaba, but which ones...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Iirc there was a lot of similar speculation regarding the SI amps, until someone bench tested the similar-looking knockoffs and found they made something like half the power.
> 
> Anyway, anyone have a link to the audiofrog thread being discussed here? Or was it deleted? It’s a shame if Andy really left as think I learned something every time he posted.


But is this a component difference and design difference entirely or is it the same design with cheaper components? That is the real question.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Jroo said:


> Since I was included in meltdown and the pure mention that rebranding/etc happens, this discussion has come full circle.


What meltdown? Lol


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

SHAGGS said:


> Good Chinese Speaker Manufacturers on Alibaba?
> 
> 
> So, I've been recently browsing Alibaba to save money on things, but as anyone who has ever used Alibaba knows, it's impossible to know the quality of the products listed. I'm sure some of the best speakers on Crutchfield are made in China and are probably listed on Alibaba, but which ones...
> ...


Thanks. Wow, what an astroturf thread. TommyDS even picked up the bs SI knockoff, lol.

it was clear within 20 posts that the “overwatchanticheat” and “DsTommy” were coordinating a gaslight campaign. I’m just surprised pravda83 didn’t join in right away... but at least JMacleod, presumably of the clan MacLeod, did.

**** China, man…


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

Stycker said:


> Andy has always been a great source for information. I always loved his analogies. He made electronics fun in an easy to understand way. Its a shame the man can't come here to unwind. I know the back story behind him and Skizer and Nick is justified for flaming him on this forum. The Chineese are known for ripping off designs. We don't know the real story here. I can understand using China for manufacturing, its called business. Just because you use an American company for something doesn't mean its American. I own a business. I would send items to an "American Lab" and found out they were shipping it to a China Lab. When they got it back from China they would then send it back to me with their "American" name on it. I found this out after years of doing business with them. Its called cutting out the middle man.



this was the case in the 90's and early 2000's but the situation today is not even close to this.


1) In the 90's a car audio company would use its know how,knowledge and design a product, make a few samples in house untill they get the perfect product out and only then would they have it serial produced in China.

2) today its the opposite way around, the Chinese got the know how a long time ago and even added price cutting techniques and they constantly approach well known brands presenting there range of products offering a price performance item at very low cost by simply rebadging it.

we have a local brand here in Turkey where the guys openly showed several pictures of the very same ''well known'' and even high end and hardest to believe claimed to be ''German built'' or EU built products from the very same 2-3 Chinese companies.

I highly doubt all products Andy has built for him in China is his own in house design built with his know how.


from what I'am told from this local company that has ties to these Chinese companies you dont get the chance to choose your own design,components etc without paying heavily extra with the Chinese.

Instead they prefer to make 1 product using the very same components and either rebadge it or making very minor visual changes and rebadge it this way they increase quantity from 100-1000's to several thousands which is key in China (serial production).

unless you are Alpine,Sony etc this is the way things work for you in China and Audio Frog even though nice is no Alpine in terms of quantity or global distribution.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

Once not too long ago, there was a thread about how much money in percentage goes to R&D, materials, manufacturing,.......there I wrote that there is also 300-400% margin and all hell broke loose, lol,...now you have it, lol


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

audiocholic said:


> this was the case in the 90's and early 2000's but the situation today is not even close to this.
> 
> 
> 1) In the 90's a car audio company would use its know how,knowledge and design a product, make a few samples in house untill they get the perfect product out and only then would they have it serial produced in China.
> ...


The amps I mentioned earlier were only 7 years ago and each company did get to spec components. This was proven by comparing guts on this very forum. 

Andy stated before that he uses build houses that he already had established ties to from his time with Harmon. It is very possible that he does spend a bit more but it is equally possible that he would get to choose components even if he did not. I would expect that he pays more for better components and possibly a bit for the lower volume aspect.


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## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Thanks. Wow, what an astroturf thread. TommyDS even picked up the bs SI knockoff, lol.
> 
> it was clear within 20 posts that the “overwatchanticheat” and “DsTommy” were coordinating a gaslight campaign. I’m just surprised pravda83 didn’t join in right away... but at least JMacleod, presumably of the clan MacLeod, did.
> 
> **** China, man…


Sorry could you please explain ? Because I don't get your intentions . I only added my experience to the post, so no idea about coordinating anythink with anybody. Randomly ordered som products (amps, speakers) from China, to test them (wasn't able due to job, bud decided to have a career break for this summer, so in 2-3months will have enough time for it) just for fun and myself...

But in case my posts bothers you, than I won't post, hope you are fine with it ...


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

07azhhr said:


> The amps I mentioned earlier were only 7 years ago and each company did get to spec components. This was proven by comparing guts on this very forum.
> 
> Andy stated before that he uses build houses that he already had established ties to from his time with Harmon. It is very possible that he does spend a bit more but it is equally possible that he would get to choose components even if he did not. I would expect that he pays more for better components and possibly a bit for the lower volume aspect.


with all the difference in price in different materuials and a bit better QC the difference in price just can not be so high (factor 2,5)


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

I will go a little further risking one of the local companies (I have no ties and dont want to be missunderstood,just sharing)

this is the internals of a M Acoustic MPD 600.4 as seen it is literally identical to the Focal FPD 600.4 inside and out.

here is a link to a gut foto, even the board has Focal written on it 


https://i.hizliresim.com/vJWJyD.jpg



remember this is Focal we are talking about, cheap ass stuff like the mentioned amps are more than likely to be in the same Chinese league of goods.

I would rather use a Sony GS4 and would have traded it in a heartbeat, no comparison tbh.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Obviously, it is an open tool design given that there are several similar amplifiers. Unless someone can get their hands on the alternative amplifiers like the B2 version or the Emphaser version then there is no way of knowing if the internals is different. I suspect they are but I admit I can be wrong. It reminds me of the DLS Audio CCi and signature series amplifiers. They are similar to the Xcelsus magnifico series but the internals is different from all the amplifiers. From what I have read, Gordon Taylor designed all of the amplifiers and I am guessing each client gave a different price point, goal of performance, etc. To me, the Xcselsus magnifico appears to use better components, which can make it easier to realize why its price is higher. Maybe this situation with Audiofrog is the same.


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

I highly doubt there is going to be any difference at all and even there is its not going be justify the difference in price of %250 as mentioned by LBaudio


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

audiocholic said:


> I will go a little further risking one of the local companies (I have no ties and dont want to be missunderstood,just sharing)
> 
> this is the internals of a M Acoustic MPD 600.4 as seen it is literally identical to the Focal FPD 600.4 inside and out.
> 
> ...


I remember back in the day on DIY that you would practically get ran off by the Fan Boys (and/or people that were someway associated) for questioning these "Elite" brands.


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## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

Just sayin'. Vid starts at the important part.


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## doeboy (May 2, 2012)

THe old abyss car audio amps were the same as Tru


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

doeboy said:


> THe old abyss car audio amps were the same as Tru


I think they may have worked together on designs and manufacturing for 1 or 2 amplifiers but then the relationship was soured and they went opposite directions. I just bought a Tru amplifier and was given photos of it being manufactured. I don't think the Tru amps today are anything related to the 20-25 year-old Abyss amplifiers they were working on.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

doeboy said:


> THe old abyss car audio amps were the same as Tru


wrong, abyss designed and built the tru coppers, tru hasn't done anything close since imo


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Porsche said:


> wrong, abyss designed and built the tru coppers, tru hasn't done anything close since imo


I think all of the current designs are completely different than the Abyss ones from 20 years ago. The current Billet and Billet A series is really nice. Everything is built in-house. I have been really happy with mine. Have you used any of the newer amplifiers in the last couple of years?


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

ANS said:


> I think all of the current designs are completely different than the Abyss ones from 20 years ago. The current Billet and Billet A series is really nice. Everything is built in-house. I have been really happy with mine. Have you used any of the newer amplifiers in the last couple of years?


yes sir, the 22 and 44, they are nice but a tru copper with upgraded/current caps is better imo


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Porsche said:


> yes sir, the 22 and 44, they are nice but a tru copper with upgraded/current caps is better imo


I have not seen or heard a copper in person before. It is a beautiful-looking amplifier. I do see Abyss is still making the same amplifier. It doesn't look like they have made any changes or come out with any models since the early 2000s. I wonder if they are out of business?

I have been using the Tru Tungsten line and have been very pleased with it. My biggest concern was thermals and I have yet to have any overheating issues, which is great since I live in Texas. I have had too many other amplifiers thermal with good airflow. Hopefully, I can try the Tru Billet A sometime soon. I just need more trunk space lol.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

ANS said:


> I have not seen or heard a copper in person before. It is a beautiful-looking amplifier. I do see Abyss is still making the same amplifier. It doesn't look like they have made any changes or come out with any models since the early 2000s. I wonder if they are out of business?
> 
> I have been using the Tru Tungsten line and have been very pleased with it. My biggest concern was thermals and I have yet to have any overheating issues, which is great since I live in Texas. I have had too many other amplifiers thermal with good airflow. Hopefully, I can try the Tru Billet A sometime soon. I just need more trunk space lol.


not outta business, i have 7 of there dual mono amps and 3 zelos amps at my office


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Porsche said:


> not outta business, i have 7 of there dual mono amps and 3 zelos amps at my office
> View attachment 334347


That is pure amp porn. Beautiful amplifiers. I bet those class A dual mono suck current down like no other. You have a very nice showroom.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

ANS said:


> That is pure amp porn. Beautiful amplifiers. I bet those class A dual mono suck current down like no other. You have a very nice showroom.


they are superb amplifiers, they are the monolithic sound dual monos upgraded from the early 90's, they run 15-18 watts class a than switch to ab upto 80 watts channel


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## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

slowride said:


> MANI 600 - The next level of design, features & compact amplification!
> 
> 
> Sleek, smooth, stealth, all fitting adjectives for the MANI 600 amplifiers. Ushering in a new compact footprint while increasing performance!
> ...


Unbelievable!! I was so excited to see the Audiofrog amps, I just couldn't justify the price. I like matching amps, as for now I have an Arc 300.2 for the sub and a Biketronics 4.180 for the components. I love the Hypex idea, but they don't make a matching amp that can do 600 watts at 4ohm. I know the AF can't either, 450. I may end up switching subs since a single 4 ohm is unusual these days. So many choices, so little time and money.


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## jlx40 (Aug 14, 2014)

knever3 said:


> Unbelievable!! I was so excited to see the Audiofrog amps, I just couldn't justify the price. I like matching amps, as for now I have an Arc 300.2 for the sub and a Biketronics 4.180 for the components. I love the Hypex idea, but they don't make a matching amp that can do 600 watts at 4ohm. I know the AF can't either, 450. I may end up switching subs since a single 4 ohm is unusual these days. So many choices, so little time and money.


sure they do, the bt4250 can be ordered with 2 modules bridged for well over 600w @ 4 ohms x 2


----------



## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

So this is why he got all offended when someone casually asked “so what buildhouse you going through?”

I’d never seen him act that way before and immediately suspected he indeed went through a typical buildhouse like everyone else - except for those who do do their own original design and engineering (and I assume sometimes even production?).

You can’t really do this for brands like Helix. I mean maybe some generic has half their amp guts, but no one has their dsp mixed in too (even then it’s too integrated to be worth copying). I assume most everyone else has a generic design they choose from and then add some personalized flavor to it.

I don’t see why he didn’t just go with the hypex modules - which already have the design part done. You can still make “your own” amp by slapping on a power supply and whatever else you want on to it - like biketronics does with their UcD version. 

I think hypex’s NCORE and UcD is a huge hidden gem just waiting to blow up the mobile audio industry, but the price needs to come down a little more. I’ll start a thread to see who may be interested in the ncore (most expensive, highest sq of any amp, ever). There’s a site that will build ncore for car audio - if there’s demand.


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

mzmtg said:


> Just sayin'. Vid starts at the important part.


Looking forward to @JimmyDee getting one and opening it up.


----------



## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Granite said:


> You can’t really do this for brands like Helix. I mean maybe some generic has half their amp guts, but no one has their dsp mixed in too (even then it’s too integrated to be worth copying). I assume most everyone else has a generic design they choose from and then add some personalized flavor to it.


Absolutely, and even on the dsp-equipped entry level Helix amps that are made outside of Germany, the DSP section is both made and retrofitted in Germany before the amps are shipped out to the distributors.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

I'm not an expert at electronics manufacturing.

Having said that, my other hobby is building bicycles. And I've come across TONS of guys who've purchased no-name bicycle frames which _appeared_ identical to frames from reputable brands.

And then the frames broke while they were riding them.

Over on diyaudio there was a thread showing a series of knock off speakers that _appeared_ identical to name brands, and then people took them apart and realized that the manufacturing was just atrocious.

Way, WAY back in the day, there was a kerfuffle because Bob Carver had a bunch of ribbons designed for his company. And then clones of his ribbons began appearing from multiple manufacturers. I think Bob sued over it, but it didn't go anywhere because _how do you get a Chinese manufacturer to pay you damages?_ Even if they shamelessly copy your ****, getting them to pay up is basically impossible.

So when you see Bob's speakers and you think _"gee, Bob is using ribbons from Parts Express..."_ It's the other way around. Bob designed the ribbons, Bob got ripped off. Parts Express is selling the clones. (Or at least that's what I read, almost two decades ago. Don't sue me Parts Express, I'm just repeating what I read online.)















Amazing Line Source | bobcarvercorp.com







www.bobcarvercorp.com





Another one is the AuraSound speakers. I find it interesting that AuraSound went bankrupt ten years ago but their drivers are still available today. Are they really AuraSound? Probably not. Some factory in China likely continued to stamp them out. Which would also explain why the uber-complex Aura drivers, like their 18" subwoofers, are unobtanium, but the simpler ones are readily available:






Company Bankruptcy Information for AuraSound, Inc.


Filed on Dec 21, 2012, California Central Bankruptcy Court




businessbankruptcies.com







aurasound drivers - Google Search



Buyer beware.


----------



## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I'm not an expert at electronics manufacturing.
> 
> Having said that, my other hobby is building bicycles. And I've come across TONS of guys who've purchased no-name bicycle frames which _appeared_ identical to frames from reputable brands.
> 
> ...


That is not the case about amplifiers. If the PCB is the same and other components are low vs high end but in similar spectrum, they will perform very close and nobody can recognize difference. Maybe one will die sooner but if it is hlaf the price and will last 2+ years who cares....


----------



## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

kiklop32 said:


> That is not the case about amplifiers. If the PCB is the same and other components are low vs high end but in similar spectrum, they will perform very close and nobody can recognize difference. Maybe one will die sooner but if it is hlaf the price and will last 2+ years who cares....


I'd care. I don't buy amps to last 2 years, I expect them to last much longer than that. No reason why they should be throw aways...


----------



## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

They did it again:


----------



## OrangeTang19x (Jun 21, 2020)

Emphaser EA-MT1, Emphaser EA-MT4


Bei Emphaser ist in letzter Zeit viel passiert. Neben Lautsprechern und Subwoofern gibt es unter der Serie Monolith auch eine Endstufenserie mit reichlich Power. Mit den neuen EA-MT Amps kommen jetzt auch Miniverstärker dazu, die wir zum Test in der Redaktion haben.




www.hifitest.de


----------



## OrangeTang19x (Jun 21, 2020)

the internals looks similar to the Audiofrogs and that Emphaser amp got great reviews


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

OrangeTang19x said:


> the internals looks similar to the Audiofrogs and that Emphaser amp got great reviews


I concur, after looking at the internal pictures of both, it would be safe to assume they are the same amplifier.


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

At this point, it is safe to assume to b2 audio version is the same amplifier.









MANI 600 - The next level of design, features & compact amplification!


Sleek, smooth, stealth, all fitting adjectives for the MANI 600 amplifiers. Ushering in a new compact footprint while increasing performance!




www.b2audio.com













B2 Audio Mani 600.4 (Mini)


Car audio accessories including subwoofers, amplifiers, speakers, sub enclosures and so much more. We strive to carry the best names in the industry while also providing the best services




skyhighcaraudio.com


----------



## MrHarris (Feb 3, 2011)

Man I just read that thread where Andy got banned. In all honesty that is a terrible outcome, for everyone. Sad times for sure (regarding this incident and just the state of the world)


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrHarris said:


> Man I just read that thread where Andy got banned. In all honesty that is a terrible outcome, for everyone. Sad times for sure (regarding this incident and just the state of the world)


He wasn't banned, he asked to close his account.


----------



## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

He said because he stood up for his friends in China. Some members here hate Chinese people.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> He said because he stood up for his friends in China. Some members here hate Chinese people.


And some members (if not most) don't hate Chinese people at all, we do hate the country of China's policies. 

And to do business in China, you have to somewhat support China's policies because if you speak out about them, then they cancel your cheap build house contracts and etc.

But why do we want to muck up this thread with the same crap again?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> He said because he stood up for his friends in China. Some members here hate Chinese people.


No one here hates (or at least openly hates) Chinese _people_. They hate China. I don't care about any of it tbh, but I figured I'd point that out.


----------



## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

You can't hate China without hating it's people.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> You can't hate China without hating it's people.


So says you but, that is ok because China hates its own people.









China forcefully harvests organs from detainees, tribunal concludes


China's organ transplant trade is worth $1 billion a year, according to a tribunal. This story contains details some may find distressing.




www.nbcnews.com













China is harvesting thousands of human organs from its Uighur Muslim minority, UN human-rights body hears


China has harvested organs from Uighurs and members of the Falun Gong religious group, said the China Tribunal, which is investigating the issue.




www.businessinsider.com













Report: China still harvesting organs from prisoners at a massive scale | CNN


A new report claims that China is still engaged in the widespread and systematic harvesting of organs from prisoners, and says that people whose views conflict with the ruling Chinese Communist Party are being murdered for their organs.




www.cnn.com


----------



## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

You may hate the government, but it has nothing to do with Car Audio.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> You can't hate China without hating it's people.


This may be the dumbest thing I have read all week. But don't worry, it's only Tuesday.


----------



## Dasyce (Sep 22, 2016)

The other fundamental issue, cost of manufacturing. 

We want made in the USA.
Incredible build quality.
Unbeatable performance.
Cost equal to made in a 3rd world country.

When that doesn’t happen, let’s blame the manufacturers.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> You may hate the government, but it has nothing to do with Car Audio.


Yes, we hate the China's government policies. 

And yes any manufacture that uses China's build houses are afraid of saying anything wrong about the China's government policies because they know they will lose their contracts. This includes Car Audio manufactures.

Of course most manufactures buy products from China but, I try not to buy from them. I also don't want their owners telling me that I am wrong for my way of thinking about China. Because China's policies are clearly more deadlier than any industrial nation in the world.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

619Tundra said:


> He said because he stood up for his friends in China. Some members here hate Chinese people.


Wow. I don't think I've ever heard any person here ever say they hate Chinese people. It's the Chinese people that bear the brunt of their horrible gov't. I love Asian people. I love Asian culture. I just choose to not buy any Chinese products when possible. I've lived in Asia and loved it and may again before long and can tell you they are more peaceful and more honest than the average American.


----------



## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

[deleted]


----------



## BlueGhost (Jul 28, 2014)

Well, since this one is already going off the rails. I think the other thread was headed down hill before the anti-China stuff started.

Very early on Andy was asked if the amps were one offs or cloned/modified designs made by a build house. He reacted like build houses didn't exist. I read it in my mind as the Jim Mora clip "BUILD HOUSES! Don’t talk about—build houses? You kidding me? Build Houses!?!"

He could have easily taken the opportunity to state what design they started with and what improvements they made. Used it a a chance to prove why the AF amps are worth the premium over ones sharing similar components. But instead the whole thing went sideways into this China debate.

It's a shame he left. He brought lots of knowledge and always seemed willing to help out.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

It reminds me of children because he took his toys and went home when he wasn't getting his way.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

P.S. He blocked and banned me from his company's facebook page because of the discussion here.


----------



## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

after reading the relatively mean-spirited things Andy said on his FB about diyma in general, I am pretty sure I will never again buy or recommend an AF product. The post has since been deleted but I can’t unsee.

BlueGhost, before the post was deleted, Andy also claimed on FB that he paid for the development of the amps in question, and authorized “Mr Tan” (or something) to license the design to other companies during the pandemic in order to keep the lights on in his factory. No idea if that is true or not.


----------



## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

SQ_Bronco said:


> BlueGhost, before the post was deleted, Andy also claimed on FB that he paid for the development of the amps in question, and authorized “Mr Tan” (or something) to license the design to other companies during the pandemic in order to keep the lights on in his factory. No idea if that is true or not.


He could have avoided a lot of BS here on diyma if he had said that.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> P.S. He blocked and banned me from his company's facebook page because of the discussion here.


He does this with everyone lol


----------



## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

BlueGhost said:


> read it in my mind as the Jim Mora clip "BUILD HOUSES! Don’t talk about—build houses? You kidding me? Build Houses!?!"


🤣🤣🤣🤣 that was pretty choice.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

619Tundra said:


> He said because he stood up for his friends in China. Some members here hate Chinese people.


thats a pretty asinine comment


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> He does this with everyone lol


Hmm. Haven’t had any issue with Andy myself. Always a pleasure to talk to.


----------



## OrangeTang19x (Jun 21, 2020)

Lets get back on topic!
so anyone here with disposable income wanna buy a Emphaser EA-MT4?


----------



## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

SQ_Bronco said:


> *after reading the relatively mean-spirited things Andy said on his FB about diyma in general,* I am pretty sure I will never again buy or recommend an AF product. The post has since been deleted but I can’t unsee.
> 
> BlueGhost, before the post was deleted, Andy also claimed on FB that he paid for the development of the amps in question, and authorized “Mr Tan” (or something) to license the design to other companies during the pandemic in order to keep the lights on in his factory. No idea if that is true or not.



Mean spirited or just pointing out the facts? You have been a member long enough to know there is a level of cesspool here. I know a few people in the car audio business who feels the same about here. Even a long standing member high up the command chain here. Andy just happened to put it forward while others keep their mouth shut. I've recently seen a post here by a so-called professional that would justify him speaking up. The truth usually hurts and offends and fan boys of certain crowd are the first. Not saying you are a fan boy, just reminding you to take the rose colored glass off. How you spend your money will always be your business.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Hmm. Haven’t had any issue with Andy myself. Always a pleasure to talk to.


Well what else is new from you lol


----------



## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

619Tundra said:


> You can't hate China without hating it's people.



Not sure what to make of that comment. But please, don't hate on us because you don't understand. I'll be the first to tell there are some little pinks. So don't use a wide bush to paint the wall. There are 56 ethnic groups of Chinese people. The Han being the biggest and the most wide spread across the planet. Think about why they are the most wide spread. Also think about why Taiwan Chinese don't want to be part of the mainland. You would need to do some history lesson. Start with Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong.


----------



## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> Hmm. Haven’t had any issue with Andy myself. Always a pleasure to talk to.



Never bought from you! But I can say you have always conducted yourself professionally, regardless of how you felt about A to Z in the open forum.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> Well what else is new from you lol


Not sure how I'm supposed to take this. 

Is there an issue that I get along well with Andy and that I voice my opinion about that, just like you constantly do with your contrary viewpoint? Are you the only one that gets to voice your opinion on dealings with him? I have a great respect for Andy and what he has done and continues to do. The products are superb and his support is just as good.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SQ_Bronco said:


> after reading the relatively mean-spirited things Andy said on his FB about diyma in general, I am pretty sure I will never again buy or recommend an AF product. The post has since been deleted but I can’t unsee.
> 
> BlueGhost, before the post was deleted, Andy also claimed on FB that he paid for the development of the amps in question, and authorized “Mr Tan” (or something) to license the design to other companies during the pandemic in order to keep the lights on in his factory. No idea if that is true or not.


He's not mean spirited. He's just bitter


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Not sure how I'm supposed to take this.
> 
> Is there an issue that I get along well with Andy and that I voice my opinion about that, just like you constantly do with your contrary viewpoint?


I just find it funny that you mention it every time I mention Andy. Nothing more


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> I just find it funny that you mention it every time I mention Andy. Nothing more


Why shouldn't/wouldn't I? You continue to voice your displeasure and I will continue to voice my terrific experiences with him. Keeps things balanced.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Why shouldn't/wouldn't I? You continue to voice your displeasure and I will continue to voice my terrific experiences with him. Keeps things balanced.


I have a really good joke here, but I cant do it lol. Keep on keeping it balanced


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

OrangeTang19x said:


> Lets get back on topic!
> so anyone here with disposable income wanna buy a Emphaser EA-MT4?


Why? Unless you are looking for a four-channel. The review is very favorable to it. Going off the internal pics of all 3 of the amplifiers, they seem to be the same.


----------



## durawilson40 (7 mo ago)

Don't know if it's good for anything more than highest number on a spec sheet, but it's at least about $6200 less than a $6500 Brax to try out  
19216811.bid
panorama charter com


----------



## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

you just cant compare Brax amps to AF D class amps, except if you think all amps sounds the same....


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

durawilson40 said:


> Don't know if it's good for anything more than highest number on a spec sheet, but it's at least about $6200 less than a $6500 Brax to try out


asinine comment #2 on this topic, who's aiming for #3


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

LBaudio said:


> you just cant compare Brax amps to AF D class amps, except if you think all amps sounds the same....


dude, amps/cables have no advantage over the other if installed properly, they are ALL the same


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Porsche said:


> dude, amps/cables have no advantage over the other if installed properly, they are ALL the same


...said no one ever. LOL


----------



## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

Porsche said:


> asinine comment #2 on this topic, who's aiming for #3


How about this:


Porsche said:


> dude, amps/cables have no advantage over the other if installed properly, they are ALL the same


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^nice try except Porsche was being sarcastic with his comment.


----------



## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

Amps, cables, dsp, speakers, installers, tuners, which dampening material you chose and the vehicle you select to put this stuff in affect how it sounds, hell how I fart and defecate daily is totally dependent on how much money I've spent on food.

Dammit ive been doing it wrong buying a5 wagyu over taco bell steak. Woe is me.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

mzmtg said:


> How about this:


your cute


----------



## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

Porsche said:


> your cute


I know.



Niebur3 said:


> ^^nice try except Porsche was being sarcastic with his comment.


That's what makes me so cute.


----------



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

Patriot83 said:


> Wow. I don't think I've ever heard any person here ever say they hate Chinese people. It's the Chinese people that bear the brunt of their horrible gov't. I love Asian people. I love Asian culture. I just choose to not buy any Chinese products when possible. I've lived in Asia and loved it and may again before long and can tell you they are more peaceful and more honest than the average American.


Is it because they're Socialist and their socialism makes it cheaper for you to live?


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Is it because they're Socialist and their socialism makes it cheaper for you to live?


Well I never lived in China if that's what you're referring to. You didn't read or comprehend my statement. I said I love the people and culture. As in traditions.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




----------



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

Patriot83 said:


> Well I never lived in China if that's what you're referring to. You didn't read or comprehend my statement. I said I love the people and culture. As in traditions.


I read the statement. I was actually thinking of Vietnam or Thailand.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> I read the statement. I was actually thinking of Vietnam or Thailand.


Nope but I'm friends with people from there too. Very honest, peaceful and happy people.


----------



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

Patriot83 said:


> Nope but I'm friends with people from there too. Very honest, peaceful and happy people.


When you talk of possibly living in Asia, which country are you referring to?


----------



## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

evo9 said:


> Mean spirited or just pointing out the facts? You have been a member long enough to know there is a level of cesspool here. I know a few people in the car audio business who feels the same about here. Even a long standing member high up the command chain here. Andy just happened to put it forward while others keep their mouth shut. I've recently seen a post here by a so-called professional that would justify him speaking up. The truth usually hurts and offends and fan boys of certain crowd are the first.


I don’t know what specific post you are talking about, unless you’re talking about patriot’s sad attempts to turn us into 4chan, but my experience is that this forum is a good bunch of folks trying to help other people learn and improve and share ideas. Folks come and go and opinions and fads change over time, and there can be groupthink, but I am not aware of a better place on the internet to talk car audio.

It’s a shame, because he is obviously very knowledgeable and has been a valuable contributor for a long time.


----------



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

SQ_Bronco said:


> It’s a shame, because he is obviously very knowledgeable and has been a valuable contributor for a long time.


I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that he has a chip on his shoulder regarding this forum. It's easy to see why just reading this thread. A guy goes to the trouble to start a business and then members of a forum try to point out why you shouldn't buy his products because there is a cheaper & equal product available. If I tried to limit your income, you probably wouldn't be friendly with me.


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that he has a chip on his shoulder regarding this forum. It's easy to see why just reading this thread. A guy goes to the trouble to start a business and then members of a forum try to point out why you shouldn't buy his products because there is a cheaper & equal product available. If I tried to limit your income, you probably wouldn't be friendly with me.


A previous person said he paid for the design but allowed the factory to use it with other brands to keep the factory open during tough times. Nothing is wrong with that, but he should have expected this to be a possible issue in the future. Now there are three brands with the same amplifier, all at varying prices. Should a consumer not care about saving money? Most consumers don't know a back story of a company nor care. Most everyday consumers just care about the quality of the product and how much money it costs. Andy is a huge benefit to the community with the knowledge he has shared. There is no denying it. But...if it is true that he allowed the amplifier design to be shared with other companies, then the only person he can blame is himself.


----------



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ANS said:


> A previous person said he paid for the design but allowed the factory to use it with other brands to keep the factory open during tough times. Nothing is wrong with that, but he should have expected this to be a possible issue in the future. Now there are three brands with the same amplifier, all at varying prices. Should a consumer not care about saving money? Most consumers don't know a back story of a company nor care. Most everyday consumers just care about the quality of the product and how much money it costs. Andy is a huge benefit to the community with the knowledge he has shared. There is no denying it. But...if it is true that he allowed the amplifier design to be shared with other companies, then the only person he can blame is himself.


This was happening before the amplifiers. People ask what build houses are being used to try to cut out a middle man to save a buck. Consumers don't care as much about the quality of a product as they do price. If I started posting photos of price sheets on the forum, manufacturers and dealers aren't going to be friendly with me. If 2 amps look similar, do they perform the same? Were Crutchfield amps equal to PPI? Are Memphis VIV amps and Kicker KX amps the same?


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> This was happening before the amplifiers. People ask what build houses are being used to try to cut out a middle man to save a buck. Consumers don't care as much about the quality of a product as they do price. If I started posting photos of price sheets on the forum, manufacturers and dealers aren't going to be friendly with me. If 2 amps look similar, do they perform the same? Were Crutchfield amps equal to PPI? Are Memphis VIV amps and Kicker KX amps the same?


1st, It has been confirmed that the amplifiers are identical, so your bringing up past situations is irrelevant. 

2nd, 99% of consumers don't try to go to a build house to buy a set of speakers or amplifiers etc to get a better deal. Most consumers don't even know how the industry works. The 1% who are trying to get a better deal by going to a build house of a certain brand, let them...who cares. 99% of that time they won't be able to purchase anything unless they are buying in quantity which defeats the purpose of saving money. Anyways, a build house isn't going to waste their time with a retail customer. 

3rd, how are wholesale and retail prices of products relevant to *this *discussion? Exactly...It is not. All products have margin built into them so a business can make a profit* but that is not the discussion here*. The discussion is about whether two different brands have the exact same amplifier as the Audiofrog and they do. 

Why are you convoluting the discussion with unrelated stuff?


----------



## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

ANS said:


> 1st, It has been confirmed that the amplifiers are identical, so your bringing up past situations is irrelevant.
> 
> 2nd, 99% of consumers don't try to go to a build house to buy a set of speakers or amplifiers etc to get a better deal. Most consumers don't even know how the industry works. The 1% who are trying to get a better deal by going to a build house of a certain brand, let them...who cares. 99% of that time they won't be able to purchase anything unless they are buying in quantity which defeats the purpose of saving money. Anyways, a build house isn't going to waste their time with a retail customer.
> 
> ...


Skizer brought it up.


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> Skizer brought it up.


Sorry, I don't understand your post/context. Can you explain?


----------



## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ANS said:


> 1st, It has been confirmed that the amplifiers are identical, so your bringing up past situations is irrelevant.


And you know for a fact that all 3 amplifiers are being sold to AudioFrog, B2 Audio, and Emphaser for the exact same price?



> 2nd, 99% of consumers don't try to go to a build house to buy a set of speakers or amplifiers etc to get a better deal. Most consumers don't even know how the industry works. The 1% who are trying to get a better deal by going to a build house of a certain brand, let them...who cares. 99% of that time they won't be able to purchase anything unless they are buying in quantity which defeats the purpose of saving money. Anyways, a build house isn't going to waste their time with a retail customer.


Maybe, but I was unaware that 99% of consumers are on this forum.



> 3rd, how are wholesale and retail prices of products relevant to *this *discussion? Exactly...It is not. All products have margin built into them so a business can make a profit* but that is not the discussion here*. The discussion is about whether two different brands have the exact same amplifier as the Audiofrog and they do.


They're not, I'm just pointing out that if you try to limit someone's ability to make money, they get upset with you.


----------



## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> And you know for a fact that all 3 amplifiers are being sold to the AudioFrog, B2 Audio, and Emphaser for the exact same price?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does the price of the amplifiers being sold to the various brands have to do with this discussion?

The same statement can be applied to the members of this forum.

Of course, he is going to be upset, but it sounds like based on the information provided, that it was his own doing by sharing his design with other companies (indirectly via his manufacturer). If this information is wrong, disregard it.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> Skizer brought it up.


Great observation. But, I didn't bring up anything. I just answered the question for OP.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ANS said:


> What does the price of the amplifiers being sold to the various brands have to do with this discussion?


If he's paying more for the same amps (due to shipping costs, number being ordered, etc.), how can he be expected to sell them for the same price? As for the OP's question, try a Sony XM-4ES.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> If he's paying more for the same amps (due to shipping costs, number being ordered, etc.), how can he be expected to sell them for the same price? As for the OP's question, try a Sony XM-4ES.


If that is the case, he cannot, which is unfortunate for him. If that is the case, I would suggest returning to the manufacturer to rediscuss the agreement and try to cut off the other brands from acquiring any new inventory to make sure he is the exclusive owner of the amplifier design. In the meantime, any smart consumer would go with whichever brand gives them the most value, whether it be by price, customer service, or both.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ANS said:


> If that is the case, he cannot, which is unfortunate for him. If that is the case, I would suggest returning to the manufacturer to rediscuss the agreement and try to cut off the other brands from acquiring any new inventory to make sure he is the exclusive owner of the amplifier design. In the meantime, any smart consumer would go with whichever brand gives them the most value, whether it be by price, customer service, or both.


Shipping cost is probably the biggest difference. The only other thing is that Andy isn't selling his amps for $699, dealers are.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Shipping cost is probably the biggest difference. The only other thing is that Andy isn't selling his amps for $699, dealers are.


Andy aka Audiofrog sets the MAP and retail pricing for the brand, so the dealers are selling the products based on what they are given to abide by. I am sure most dealers would be willing to make a deal like anything else if you were to do business over the phone or by email etc but, the dealers can't advertise any lower than what the MAP pricing is.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ANS said:


> Andy aka Audiofrog sets the MAP and retail pricing for the brand, so the dealers are selling the products based on what they are given to abide by. I am sure most dealers would be willing to make a deal like anything else if you were to do business over the phone or by email etc but, the dealers can't advertise any lower than what the MAP pricing is.


Yes, AudioFrog sets the MAP and MSRP, but they don't receive $699 every time an amp sells. They choose to have dealers and want their dealers to succeed, much like Helix does. Helix could choose to cut dealers out and just sell to the consumer for the same price they are currently selling to dealers, but why? I think Clarion and MTX tried that and it didn't work all that well. I tried to find an Emphaser dealer, but didn't have much luck. I won't be using either because I don't like the way they look.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Yes, AudioFrog sets the MAP and MSRP, but they don't receive $699 every time an amp sells. They choose to have dealers and want their dealers to succeed, much like Helix does. Helix could choose to cut dealers out and just sell to the consumer for the same price they are currently selling to dealers, but why? I think Clarion and MTX tried that and it didn't work all that well. I tried to find an Emphaser dealer, but didn't have much luck. I won't be using either because I don't like the way they look.


What you are describing is how many car audio brands work. You name it, Helix, Morel, Focal, Audison, Mmats, JL Audio, Alpine, and so many more all use the same model of selling to dealers and then letting the dealers sell to consumers. Some brands also sell direct and maintain the MAP and retail pricing while doing so. With that said, most brands still only rely on dealer networks and/or Crutchfield because they do not have the resources to effectively and efficiently sell directly to consumers. Many brands do not have the resources/infrastructure to sell their products to dealers, which is why many brands hire rep firms to be the face of their brand.

Regardless, most of these brands have a nice margin built into the product when they sell to dealers. Trust me, they are not in it to be a non-profit. It is nice to see when brands go out of their way to add value to their products through education and support.


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## BlueGhost (Jul 28, 2014)

I know the B2 Audio amps go for about 1/2 the price of Audio Frogs from dealers. I've seen the Emphaser for about 1/2 the price as well. When your amp cost twice as much, you better have a way to justify it. I could see 20% to 30% for the Audio Frog due to lower volume and brand value. But at twice as much, there needs to be something that distinguishes them from the B2 or Emphaser beyond heatsink styling and some branding. It is funny how some on the forum will fight tooth and nail to back the favorite brand, when years ago this forum was all about exposing brands who did stuff like this. Anyone remember the Arc/Elf audio ubuy amps?

I'm assuming the Audio Frog prices are targeting the JL XD amps. They would be reasonable when compared to the XDs and not taking into account B2 or Emphaser. The xd400/4 4 channel that isn't as powerful as the Audio Frog 4 channel, making the Audio Frog the better deal by comparison.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

BlueGhost said:


> I know the B2 Audio amps go for about 1/2 the price of Audio Frogs from dealers. I've seen the Emphaser for about 1/2 the price as well. When your amp cost twice as much, you better have a way to justify it. I could see 20% to 30% for the Audio Frog due to lower volume and brand value. But at twice as much, there needs to be something that distinguishes them from the B2 or Emphaser beyond heatsink styling and some branding. It is funny how some on the forum will fight tooth and nail to back the favorite brand, when years ago this forum was all about exposing brands who did stuff like this. Anyone remember the Arc/Elf audio ubuy amps?
> 
> I'm assuming the Audio Frog prices are targeting the JL XD amps. They would be reasonable when compared to the XDs and not taking into account B2 or Emphaser. The xd400/4 4 channel that isn't as powerful as the Audio Frog 4 channel, making the Audio Frog the better deal by comparison.


Of those 3 amps, the B2 has a 1 year warranty when dealer installed and a 30 day warranty when consumer installed. The warranty only applies to the original purchaser when purchased from an authorized B2 dealer. Emphaser says their amp is warrantied for 2 years and the product must be purchased from an authorized dealer. They also state that if the defect happens in the first 6 months from purchase date that they will assume the defect was there at time of purchase and then go on to list reasons why they won't warranty the product. Audiofrog says their amp has a 1 year warranty and that if you lack the tools or knowledge to install it, consider consulting a dealer. I guess I could call all three company tech lines and see who offers the best service, but I'm a bit too busy today for that.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> Of those 3 amps, the B2 has a 1 year warranty when dealer installed and a 30 day warranty when consumer installed. The warranty only applies to the original purchaser when purchased from an authorized B2 dealer. Emphaser says their amp is warrantied for 2 years and the product must be purchased from an authorized dealer. They also state that if the defect happens in the first 6 months from purchase date that they will assume the defect was there at time of purchase and then go on to list reasons why they won't warranty the product. Audiofrog says their amp has a 1 year warranty and that if you lack the tools or knowledge to install it, consider consulting a dealer. I guess I could call all three company tech lines and see who offers the best service, but I'm a bit too busy today for that.


Given the price of the B2 and Emphaser you could always buy two of them and put one aside for the same price as the Audiofrog or you could buy the Emphaser through eBay and buy a squaretrade warranty with it. Let's say you buy the Emphaser through eBay and you receive a defective unit. eBay would then guarantee the transaction for X amount of time so you would be covered. 

What service would you need outside: does it work and can the user read the controls/manual? 

I think there is added value to a brand when the brand is easy to get a hold of and knowing they are there in the event of a warranty situation but whether that is worth double the price is up to you.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

As a dealer, there is always the Value factor. There is value in me using very specific gear in your car when you hand us 5 figures to build a system. But honestly, as ANS said, it's an amp. There is nothing special about these ones. It's either going to work, or it's not going to work. If you actually need support for an amplifier, you should be having a professional install your gear. Again, it's just an amp. Power, ground, turn on, signal in, signal out, volume knob. Done. If you are an end-user that DIY's their stuff, there is no great reason to pay 700 for one with X logo when you can get the same amp for $350 but with Y logo unless you just want to support a particular brand.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> As a dealer, there is always the Value factor. There is value in me using very specific gear in your car when you hand us 5 figures to build a system. But honestly, as ANS said, it's an amp. There is nothing special about these ones. It's either going to work, or it's not going to work. If you actually need support for an amplifier, you should be having a professional install your gear. Again, it's just an amp. Power, ground, turn on, signal in, signal out, volume knob. Done. If you are an end-user that DIY's their stuff, there is no great reason to pay 700 for one with X logo when you can get the same amp for $350 but with Y logo unless you just want to support a particular brand.


You’re right, it is just an amp. When they’re working correctly, most people can’t tell the difference between 2 brands. As someone that also works in the industry, we’d rather use a Helix DSP and an Emphaser amp than the other way around.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

The only reason why I would consider paying twice as much for the same product would be because I trusted my local dealer to install and stand behind the product without searching for loopholes to get out of warranty problems.

I used to have that relationship with a dealer in town but, he retired. Since then I have tried a few shops in town with high end brands and high end price tags but, I have not received high end service. So if I am installing myself, then the brand value isn't going to mean that much because the warranty will not be that long.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

BlueGhost said:


> I know the B2 Audio amps go for about 1/2 the price of Audio Frogs from dealers. I've seen the Emphaser for about 1/2 the price as well. When your amp cost twice as much, you better have a way to justify it. I could see 20% to 30% for the Audio Frog due to lower volume and brand value. But at twice as much, there needs to be something that distinguishes them from the B2 or Emphaser beyond heatsink styling and some branding. It is funny how some on the forum will fight tooth and nail to back the favorite brand, when years ago this forum was all about exposing brands who did stuff like this. Anyone remember the Arc/Elf audio ubuy amps?
> 
> I'm assuming the Audio Frog prices are targeting the JL XD amps. They would be reasonable when compared to the XDs and not taking into account B2 or Emphaser. The xd400/4 4 channel that isn't as powerful as the Audio Frog 4 channel, making the Audio Frog the better deal by comparison.


seriously, some of you amaze me. how much tech support etc do you get from b2 audio and emphaser, really love an honest answer on this. im not a fan of andy or af, have never owned there products and never will, BUT i do respect that he was always willing to chat and help MANY MANY of you on this forum an im sure on other forums as well, that says a lot about them as a company and i assume there warranty etc replacement gear is the same as well, meaning on top of there game. thats called VALUE and its worth a lot but than again most on this forum think its owed and should be free than buy elsewhere instead of supporting the guys that actually help them


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Porsche said:


> seriously, some of you amaze me. how much tech support etc do you get from b2 audio and emphaser, really love an honest answer on this. im not a fan of andy or af, have never owned there products and never will, BUT i do respect that he was always willing to chat and help MANY MANY of you on this forum an im sure on other forums as well, that says a lot about them as a company and i assume there warranty etc replacement gear is the same as well, meaning on top of there game. thats called VALUE and its worth a lot but than again most on this forum think its owed and should be free than buy elsewhere instead of supporting the guys that actually help them


When there is a duplicate item for half the price, then the prioritization of technical/warranty support will decrease for many customers.

What you described can be valuable to the right person; however, not everyone interacts with Audiofrog/Andy, so the value would not be there in those cases.

Most on this forum do not have a mentality of being owed anything. Yes, there are a few but do the majority? No. A lot of members have different views on what is valuable to them.

In reality, the average customer who goes into a retail environment to make a purchase will not have a clue this forum exists. The likelihood of them ever knowing there is a duplicate copy for a less expensive price is very slim. Regardless, in a retail environment, it is more of the retailer's position to add additional value than the manufacturers, whether it be by providing services or simply having the right verbiage to make the sale. A manufacturer's customer service would be more of a value to the dealer than the customer. When a manufacturer sells direct to consumers online, then price plays a majority role in value to the customer.

If the difference in price between the Audiofrog amplifier and the B2/Emphaser were smaller, only 10-25%, then I would personally opt for the Audiofrog, but the actual difference in price is large and is hard to ignore.


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

All I’ve learned from this thread is that the OP shouldn’t buy amplifiers from Audiofrog, B2 Audio, or Emphaser.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> All I’ve learned from this thread is that the OP shouldn’t buy amplifiers from Audiofrog, B2 Audio, or Emphaser.


If I had an application that I thought this amplifier would work, then I would try it out. The results of the review from hifitest look really good.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

B2 and Emphaser are selling in Europe. We have 2 year warranty for every product by law ( no food etc.). 
If they are not sending better amps to Europe, you should be fine in US.
In any case, what kind of support do you need about amplifier in era of YouTube?


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

kiklop32 said:


> B2 and Emphaser are selling in Europe. We have 2 year warranty for every product by law ( no food etc.).
> If they are not sending better amps to Europe, you should be fine in US.
> In any case, what kind of support do you need about amplifier in era of YouTube?


I got my warranty info from the products owner’s manuals.

In the age of YouTube, we should all be building our own amplifiers. I guess if the Audiofrog guy can build a 24 channel DSP/amplifier for his own car, we all can.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Is Mr. Toads Wild Ride really Andy?


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

Andy isn't the kind of person to pull a Kountz.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Is Mr. Toads Wild Ride really Andy?


Maybe we can get Mr. Toads Wild Ride himself to answer this question?


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## willis36 (Apr 12, 2013)

Does anyone have a link to the gut shots of the emphaser or b2 amps? I can not seem to find anything, just curious and want to see for myself.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

willis36 said:


> Does anyone have a link to the gut shots of the emphaser or b2 amps? I can not seem to find anything, just curious and want to see for myself.


It is in the hifitest.de review of the Emphaser amplifier and you can compare it to the photos on the Audiofrog website. They are the same.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> I got my warranty info from the products owner’s manuals.
> 
> In the age of YouTube, we should all be building our own amplifiers. I guess if the Audiofrog guy can build a 24 channel DSP/amplifier for his own car, we all can.


Manual? I ment that these two amps are build also for Europ market where they need to survive at least 2 years so I would not be scared about differences in warranty in US.

And nobody was talking about building own amps. I was talking about connecting amp to power, RCA and speakers. You dont need tech support fort this when youtube exists. In fact dealer or manufacturer is the last place where I would ask for support.

And just for your info I learned how to repair / upgrade my amps mostly on youtube so....


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

kiklop32 said:


> In fact dealer or manufacturer is the last place where I would ask for support.


I know, it’s crazy to think that the manufacturer knows more about their product than us. Anyways, some people need help. I’ve seen a person ruin 2 Skar amps because they hooked battery and ground to the speaker terminals because they were labeled + and -.



> And just for your info I learned how to repair / upgrade my amps mostly on youtube so....


Yes, which means it’s possible to find enough information to build your own amplifier if you chose to.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> I know, it’s crazy to think that the manufacturer knows more about their product than us. Anyways, some people need help. I’ve seen a person ruin 2 Skar amps because they hooked battery and ground to the speaker terminals because they were labeled + and -.
> 
> 
> Yes, which means it’s possible to find enough information to build your own amplifier if you chose to.


It can happen  Once I have swapped + and -, but fuses worked fine so I was lucky . But still you dont have to know much when you want to connect amp in car. I cant find out why you need to ask manufacturer or specialist to connect amp correctly just google and 20 sec. You can not say that I am wrong.


And in fact there are many sites where you can find info how to build amps or free designs what you can check, buy components and start building "own" amp. Also you can find many schematics of many circuits what you can also implement in pre build design.

For example


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

ANS said:


> It is in the hifitest.de review of the Emphaser amplifier and you can compare it to the photos on the Audiofrog website. They are the same.


are they using the exact same parts, connectors, wire, caps, resistors, etc etc same brand everything? because if not that is part of the cost


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Porsche said:


> are they using the exact same parts, connectors, wire, caps, resistors, etc etc same brand everything? because if not that is part of the cost


From looking over the photos available, every seeable part is the same.


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

ANS said:


> From looking over the photos available, every seeable part is the same.


I've got no dog in this hunt, but I'll say it may be difficult, if not impossible, to determine things like resister tolerances, board layers/quality, capacitor heat ranges, and other general 'parts quality' differentiators from a few photos.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

alachua said:


> I've got no dog in this hunt, but I'll say it may be difficult, if not impossible, to determine things like resister tolerances, board layers/quality, capacitor heat ranges, and other general 'parts quality' differentiators from a few photos.


exactly, just because it looks the same does not mean it is the same


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Porsche said:


> exactly, just because it looks the same does not mean it is the same


I can't logically theorize why the main components on the board that you can visually see which make the biggest difference would be the exact same but then smaller SMD components would be different? If there's a difference normally it's going to be shown in the power supply, power supply capacitor bank, filtering capacitors, OP-Amps, and transistors. Based on the photos the main components are the same.

Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but the photos show a lot to go off of.

I don't understand the need to defend any brand unless you have a financial stake in it. In a retail environment, you can still sell any of the three versions and be successful. The information of this thread should have no bearing on the overall sales of any of the three amplifiers so in reality the discussion should just be about confirming if they are or are not the same based on evidence provided. So far we have photos. Can you add any info to that discussion?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Is Mr. Toads Wild Ride really Andy?





KillerBox said:


> Maybe we can get Mr. Toads Wild Ride himself to answer this question?


We still haven't heard from the man Mr. Toads Wild Ride yet on this question.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

KillerBox said:


> We still haven't heard from the man Mr. Toads Wild Ride yet on this question.


Mr Toads wild ride has been a member since before Andy self imposed his exile. 

And who gives a damn? The community is frankly better with him and his experience/advice.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Caustic said:


> Mr Toads wild ride has been a member since before Andy self imposed his exile.
> 
> And who gives a damn? The community is frankly better with him and his experience/advice.


I don't care if he is exile or not. But, I do like for people to be honest.


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## Caustic (May 13, 2018)

To each their own.

Can't believe this thread has gotten so much traffic,


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Does anyone have any Emphaser experience? I've been interested in their DSP amp range...


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ANS said:


> If I had an application that I thought this amplifier would work, then I would try it out. The results of the review from hifitest look really good.


If you are currently using a Gladen Audio RC 105C4, you could easily replace it with the Emphaser EA-MT4.


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

MrToadsWildRide said:


> If you are currently using a Gladen Audio RC 105C4, you could easily replace it with the Emphaser EA-MT4.


I could, but I won't because I am happy with the Gladen, and my next change will be going to a Tru Technology amplifier sitting in my closet for 6 months, lol.

What I meant by my original comment is that if I had a friend or customer in which the amplifier would be a good fit, then I would definitely give it a try.


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## Zen9pg (Nov 30, 2021)




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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Caustic said:


> To each their own.
> 
> Can't believe this thread has gotten so much traffic,


Its a very interesting discussion especially on a forum with this very specific audience that are buying the equipment. It also has meaning as many are tightening their belts watching the economy and value has different definitions for many. I personally dont see as much value in name as some do. If I know that an amp or processor is basically the same even if 1% of the components are different, I then start to look at price. I cant justify a 3 or 400 dollar price markup simply because of name recognition essentially. This thread also got a lot of traction as many viewed the response and actions of some well known members to be odd in relation to the topic.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

619Tundra said:


> You can't hate China without hating it's people.


I believe the hatred is directed toward China's government and its policies rather than the whole country and its people. Most of us hate our own politicians so there's not much of a difference.

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## solo8788 (Feb 12, 2021)

I joined DIYMOBILEAUDIO...talk about audio. I just don't understand how certain people don't get that this is not the place for your POLITICAL, opinions. We are here to talk about our audio hobby and finding information/help on how to improve it.

If I wanted to get into POLITICAL discussions online, there are plenty for other forums for that.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> I believe the hatred is directed toward China's government and its policies rather than the whole country and its people. Most of us hate our own politicians so there's not much of a difference.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


Hate the system not workers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> Hate the system not workers.


that's literally what he said.. dude, are you good?


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## MrToadsWildRide (Jun 10, 2021)

ckirocz28 said:


> I believe the hatred is directed toward China's government and its policies rather than the whole country and its people. Most of us hate our own politicians so there's not much of a difference.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


Not sure what the deal is. Do people believe that Helix sources all of the parts they use from Germany? Should people buy Audiofrog over Emphaser because Audiofrog possibly employs more Americans than Emphaser does?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I will take a stab at it.

1. I highly doubt that anyone thinks that 100% parts are made in Germany.

2. Everything be equal as far as price, quality, construction, features & etc. I would buy AudioFrog over Emphaser if they hired (& I knew it ahead of time) more citizens of the USA.

If not, then you start weighing your options.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

As far as holding China’s citizens completely blameless for what their government is doing. 

I read the same type of arguments after WW2.

I don’t believe that government in the modern world can exist in a vacuum. So obviously enough of their population are ok with what they are doing in the world. Just like most Germans were at the start of WW2.

So I like Germans now but, I wouldn’t have liked Germans in 1938 because of their policies.


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

KillerBox said:


> As far as holding China’s citizens completely blameless for what their government is doing.
> 
> I read the same type of arguments after WW2.
> 
> ...


Actually, the NSDAP didn’t get the majority of votes in 1938, but somehow managed to build a coalition in the parliament back then which made Hitler the Chancellor. Everything that followed afterwards was totally done by the government, but not the majority of people. Actually thousands of people were arrested after Jan 30 1939 for opposing the NSDAP and Hitler.
Almost the same is going on today in China. You oppose to the communist party? Well, say your life goodbye.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cathul said:


> Actually, the NSDAP didn’t get the majority of votes in 1938, but somehow managed to build a coalition in the parliament back then which made Hitler the Chancellor. Everything that followed afterwards was totally done by the government, but not the majority of people. Actually thousands of people were arrested after Jan 30 1939 for opposing the NSDAP and Hitler.
> Almost the same is going on today in China. You oppose to the communist party? Well, say your life goodbye.


Dude, this isn’t correct. In 1938 elections the NSDAP had over 98% of the votes.









Wikiwand - 1938 German parliamentary election and referendum


Parliamentary elections were held in Germany on 10 April 1938. as well as the recent annexation of Austria. Turnout in the election was officially 99.6% with 99.1% voting 'yes' in Germany and Austria. The elections were held largely to rally official support from the new Ostmark province...




www.wikiwand.com





Let’s try to get back on topic.


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

Sorry, got the years incorrect. In fact it was in 1932. The NSDAP only got ~33% of all votes, and on Jan 30, 1933 Hitler became Reichskanzler.
In July 1933 the government under leadership of the NSDAP made a law that made the NSDAP the only party in Germany, called "Einparteienstaat". But Hitler came to ultimate power after the Röhm (former ally from Hitler and former Member of the NSDAP) tried a Putsch and Hindenburg died. After these two events the now only party NSDAP made Hitler Reichskanzler and Reichspresident in peronal union which gave him ultimate power over the government in Germany.
Rest is history. Repressions of opposition, jews and other minorities, burning of the Reichstag, heavy propaganda, lowering resistance through hidden steps that ultimately made war possible like building the first Autobahnen and stuff like that. There are reports that members of the NSDAP looked over people shoulders when they made the decision yes or no in 1938 and in case of a No there was a big chance that your whole family was sent to a concentration camp for being against the NSDAP (called "Sippenhaft" in Germany, i think the english term is "kin liability"). Under such pressure it's no wonder that many people voted yes.

Ultimately the rise to power from such governments looks almost always the same, no matter if its Nazis or Communists like in the former USSR.
And in China, as the communists are on power for such a long time there are people growing up who don't know otherwise and get indoctrinated that their system is the best right from their birth. Even if they study in other countries, like many chinese people do or have relations to other countries grow up with the constant message of the communist party in China. What do you expect then?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I hope you are not saying just because the
Chinese have been indoctrinated since birth then we should accept their bad actions?


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## cathul (Jul 2, 2018)

I just say that criticising from the outside most probably has nothing to do with the reality of the majority of the people living there.
People growing up being constantly told "The government knows best and is always right" will believe that if they play by the governments rules and have, by their standars, a good life.
If everyone around you is working as much as you do, getting the same money from the work, can afford a flat, maybe a motorcycle to get to work, they wont see their situation as we in the western world do.
And the people that know better, maybe because they studied in one of the western countries, play by the governments rules simply because it's much easier for them to do.
So the people to blame are really just a minority of the chinese people, i.e. the ones who know better and actively accept and support that.
Remember what happened to Jack Ma, the founder of Alibaba? After criticising the government he disappeared for quite some time, the IPO of Alibaba was cancelled by the government and nobody knows what really happened up to know, although Jack Ma has been seen in public again.
In China you go to jail if you mention the Tiananmen massacre in the year 1989. It is forbidden to even talk about that. Ordinary people born after the 90's in China don't even know what happened there as no information exists about the events in 1989 in China.

Just some food for thought to not only see black and white.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

KillerBox said:


> I hope you are not saying just because the
> Chinese have been indoctrinated since birth then we should accept their bad actions?


Tiananmen Square, the majority of Chinese would love to be free of Communist rule but are too afraid they'll get run over by tanks if they do anything towards that end.

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Tiananmen Square, the majority of Chinese would love to be free of Communist rule but are too afraid they'll get run over by tanks if they do anything towards that end.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


That is a similar defense that the Nazis used after WW2. Sure the average person on the street might not like what their government is doing but, the people that own the factories are government supporters because that is probably how they got (or grew) their factories in the first place. 

No big commerce happens in China without the Government's approval. To get the Government's approval you have to major supporter of the Communist Party of China.


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

So did someone compared audiofrog amplifiers with emphasers and B2s?


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

Speedhunter said:


> So did someone compared audiofrog amplifiers with emphasers and B2s?


Yes, they are similar.


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

ANS said:


> Yes, they are similar.


Similar in the way that justifies double the price or....Can you point me on that comparison? 
Andy seems disturbed when he is questioned about those amps. Usually he is kind of guy who put pictures and measurements to justifies his statements and not the guy who deleting and shutting down comments and posts on his FB group and further more got himself banned from this forum.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^He wasn't banned.


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^He wasn't banned.


What is it than? Because i see some numbers instead of his username and near it says "banned"....but lets focus on those amps not china-nazi germany


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

It's spelled right out in his own posts. He essentially demanded that he be banned (and presumably changed his own user name).


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^he asked for his account to be closed. This isn't the same as being banned.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Speedhunter said:


> What is it than? Because i see some numbers instead of his username and near it says "banned"....but lets focus on those amps not china-nazi germany


Technically he was banned, but at his own request. I don't know why he didn't just delete his account.

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## ANS (Sep 23, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Technically he was banned, but at his own request. I don't know why he didn't just delete his account.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


From what I understand he wanted his posts to still be available since there has been a lot of useful information shared by him.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

its called being a baby, asking to be banned, pretty damn simple, don't post an go away, but asking to be banned, i guess some folks have very little discipline or self control


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^^^lol. He asked for his account to be closed. That is all. My source is @JimmyDee , what is yours?

And for the record, Andy has arguably done more for car audio and this forum than any other member.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

ANS said:


> From what I understand he wanted his posts to still be available since there has been a lot of useful information shared by him.


Ok, that makes sense. He left a legacy. 

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^^lol. He asked for his account to be closed. That is all. My source is @JimmyDee , what is yours?
> 
> And for the record, Andy has arguably done more for car audio and this forum than any other member.


he said 

I violated the first rule. I'm guilty because I called someone a name. I should be banned. The admins must ban me. It says so below.

followed by

the admins must ban or rules mean nothing

dude sounds like a hysterical cry baby

glad he's your hero, to each there own


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## Speedhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^^lol. He asked for his account to be closed. That is all. My source is @JimmyDee , what is yours?


It doesn't matter sepcificaly if he requested for a ban or he got banned or whatever. Clearly he got upset when those amps got questioned so I think something is off...2 days ago he shuts down post in his FB group when random guy asked a question about difference between emphaser,b2 and audiofrog amp. I respect and follow andy but this is little too much.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe his is tired of the same question, over and over. Why is he supposed to keep feeding the trolls? Anyone asking at this point is just trying to poke the bear. Why should anyone have to deal with that? If he sold the design and someone else made amp with that design and sells them with no dealer support for cheap, that is now out of his control. For the few that DIY and willing to take that risk, there isn't anything else to talk about. For most that buy from and leave it up to the dealer to install everything, there isn't anything more to talk about. So why keep talking about it?

I mean, you guys have the ability to buy many brands overseas with no warranty support or dealer support for much less expensive and I'm sure some of you do, but then you get what you get.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Porsche said:


> dude sounds like a hysterical cry baby


Careful, this isn't off topic you know. As Andy pointed out, you can be banned for calling names. And you LOVE to call names. lol.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

shades of days gone by from ECA, the battle of abyss/tru...


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Andy was not banned. He asked to have his DIYMA account closed.
I won't get into the reasons why... you can reach out to him on Facebook, if you really need to know.

We closed Andy's account - per his request. But due to the amount of informative content that he had posted over the years; we left all that online. No need to delete good info... many members have benefitted from it, and will continue to do so. 

The end result is that; yes his account is closed (which is why it shows an anonymized name), but his posted content is still active for members to view.


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