# tweeter + 8 inch woofer combo?



## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

My S-550 I was told has a 3 way comp set up front that I'm not happy with. Can I get decent sound from just running a 1 inch tweeter and 8 inch woofer in the stock locations without using the 3 inch midrange to make it an easier setup? Does the tweeter go low enough or the 8 inch woofer high enough to blend in sufficiently? If so can anyone rec a set that would work OK together?

I gave the installer an MB premier series 6.5 comp set to put in, but he won't get to it until Saturday so I have some time to change my mind. The install on the 6.5 set is higher due to custom mounting given the 8 inch stock woofer it would be replacing and the widesphere tweeter being oversized. If I just got an 8 inch woofer and a normal 1 inch tweeter the install would be a LOT cheaper and probably cleaner if they could blend together adequately.

I could save up to $200 on the install to apply to the 8/1inch combo if it would work.


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

8" and 1" in a 2-way require good drivers and preferably steep slopes in the crossover. The tweeter should be crossed over as low as possible, which introduces some other possible issues. But there are quite a few tweeters capable of low x-over frequencies. Morel and Seas to mention a couple of brands who produce such tweeters.

Around 2-2,5kHz should be the highest x-over frequencies in such a setup, in my opinion. So look at tweeters with an Fs not higher than 1kHz.

But I don't see why you don't just upgrade the 3" if you already have a 3-way set.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

I have a 4 channel amp already so setting up the 2-way would be cheaper and easier. Is there a specific combo of a tweet and woofer you could recommend that you think would work? The MB premier set + custom install is going to cost >$400, and the 8/1 combo would just be a a direct drop-in so the install would be very little (I think). So if there is a set that would cost $300 - $400 I think it should sound better than the $150 MB premiers since most of the cost would go into the custom install and not the actual hardware. 

Is there a specific set that I could get for < $400?


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

MCSYNC8 - Memphis MClass 8" Multi-Sync Convertible Speakers

That's the only think I could come up with atm, but it wouldn't be my 1st choice. I'm a little busy right now, so hopefully someone else might help you...

The Dayton RS225 8" is another option, but I don't know which tweeters you could match it with. Maybe Morel MT-12, with an Fs of 950hz.

MT-12 - Morel Silk 28 mm Soft-dome Tweeters

With another $100 for two RS225's, it would match up to almost $400. Having the RS225's myself at home, I'll say they're a decent choice.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Ultimate UP8i - 8 inches / 20 cm 2-way component 
Shallow mount is a +

Not sure about the price though... 

Kelvin


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

thanks for the suggestions. that DLS looks like a perfect solution for many European cars, i gotta just think about the price now. 449 Euro + international shipping.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

How do you think this combo in an active setup would work? 

Morel MW265-4 ohm 8" Damped Polymer shallow midbass driver $120 x 2
SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter $35 x 2

The specs LOOK like they should work I think, and definitely higher end parts. The woofer goes up to 3600Hz and the tweeter goes down to 2500Hz, so in theory they should be ok? About $320 and fit straight into stock slots. I have a PG Tantrum 3-way active crossover collecting dust that could complete this set.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

lawrence131 said:


> How do you think this combo in an active setup would work?
> 
> Morel MW265-4 ohm 8" Damped Polymer shallow midbass driver $120 x 2
> SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter $35 x 2
> ...


I don't know what your required mounting depth is, but I'd highly recommend something like a SEAS CA22RNX over that Morel. Much better performance. If you really have to have a shallow mounting depth the Morel will suffice but the performance is average and I wouldn't want to pay $120 per for average. Better than most car-fi for sure, though.

Far as tweeters I'd recommend the 27TAFNC/G over the 27TFFN. Don't let the fact that it's metal scare you off, it's a smooth, very good performing tweeter, better than the fabric version.

Really though considering you have spots for 3" midranges in your car I'd highly recommend you use them. Most of those on this forum would ejaculate on themselves if they found out their car had stock spots to go 3-way.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Yeah, it's a no-brainer to use an 8" instead of a 6.5", especially since he's charging you more. I'm not going to recommend any specific speakers, but keep in mind also that you could try an 8" woofer and a 3" coaxial or widebander (can you fit 3-1/2"?) instead of a tweeter. That way you don't have to limit yourself to just 8" speakers that extend to high frequencies. You could use dedicated midbass drivers.


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

Cavernous footwells, big/high center console, lower door 6.5"/ 8" extending into the midrange. 

It wouldn't work in my situation. 
Added 3" midranges in the stock upper door locations, playing from 200hz to 4.5khz. It's working very well.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

Hybrid has an 8" & 1" two way
HYBRID AUDIO TECHNOLOGIES LEGATIA L81-2 PRO COMPONENT SPEAKERS SET


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

thanks for the tips. those Seas are actually cheaper than the ones I picked out (I thought I had to pick out 4 ohm woofers). i need to really think about going 3-way now, but it's going to cost a lot more. it really is kind of a waste not to use it given an already silent, dampened luxury car with holes already cut for 8/3/1 though I guess 

To go from the 2-way to 3-way set I have to add another 2-channel amp for the 3" mids, (going for stealth install so something like an Arc mini is going to be $200+). I'm pretty sure it'll fit 3.5" coaxials - either way the 3/3.5 set will be another ~$150?

Actually $350 premium to go 3-way active set given the car was already built for it seems pretty insignificant now, as long I can actually make it sound better than a simpler 2-way. Since the midbass + tweeter combo Dangerranger recommended should blend fine into each other's ranges though, will it actually sound that much better adding a 3" and taking out that middle range from the other 2 drivers? I can switch to that tweet + 8" for basically free.




Dangerranger said:


> I don't know what your required mounting depth is, but I'd highly recommend something like a SEAS CA22RNX over that Morel. Much better performance. If you really have to have a shallow mounting depth the Morel will suffice but the performance is average and I wouldn't want to pay $120 per for average. Better than most car-fi for sure, though.
> 
> Far as tweeters I'd recommend the 27TAFNC/G over the 27TFFN. Don't let the fact that it's metal scare you off, it's a smooth, very good performing tweeter, better than the fabric version.
> 
> Really though considering you have spots for 3" midranges in your car I'd highly recommend you use them. Most of those on this forum would ejaculate on themselves if they found out their car had stock spots to go 3-way.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

from Danger's rec's I found this post pairing the Seas tweets with an RS180 with apparently great results for cheap... Dayton RS180 + Seas 27TAFNC/G

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/29493-dayton-rs180-seas-27tafnc-g.html

Only $160 for that combo. I think I will switch to this combo, gotta call the installers in the morning and tell them to halt the speaker install and just work on the Sub and amps for now  thanks for the suggestions. If I don't like the sound, it'll be easy enough to add the 3" mid later.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

Well those 3" Faital midranges that CraigE above uses are less than $30 per driver. I haven't heard them personally but I've heard of them and all the feedback I've seen is positive. Ones I have heard are the Vifa TG9s and they do come in a 4 ohm version, are very nice sounding and still less than $30 per driver. Not quite as efficient as those Faitals but the fact that they're 4 ohm versus the Faitals being 8 ohm balances that out and I imagine you could cross them over a tad lower too. The Fountek FR88 drivers are also very very nice and are $22 per driver. I'd say the Founteks are a little bit nicer overall than the TG9s actually

And realistically, if you went 3 way versus 2 way, you wouldn't necessarily have to spend the same amount on the drivers. In other words, you wouldn't have to have an 8" with as smooth a response in upper midrange because you simply won't be using it there, instead you could focus on one geared more toward midbass and lower midrange performance. A Dayton RS225 is a good candidate for that as it has clean midbass and lower midrange, has a 4 ohm version, and is cheap, and you'll be crossing over low enough you won't worry about cone breakup. The tweeter wouldn't have to drop as low just due to the midrange allowing a higher crossover frequency either, but I'd stick with that 27TAFN as the price and performance is very good. 2 way requires "jack of all trades" kinds of drivers just because what's being asked of them, where 3 way offers a bit more flexibility there.

The RS180, 27TAFN combo isn't a bad combo, but about the only metal driver I like to use in a 2 way in a car is SEAS L18 simply because the driver has a cone profile that pushes the breakup node to 7khz. In other words, you can cross it at 2-2.5khz and not have to worry as much about harmonic distortion exciting the breakup of the cone. Not that metal cones don't or can't work 2 way, I just prefer to use them in a home where I can fit a beefy enough tweeter to be clean at the lower crossover point you're asking of it, neo dome chamberless tweeters for car audio rarely sound realistic when asked to produce at low crossover frequencies.. Read the guy's later comments about running the combo in a car instead of his apartment, the crossover and the lack of notch filter on the midbasses causing issues. Granted this can be fixed with a proper crossover and attention to the breakup nodes, but IMO the end result still wouldn't be as ideal as a paper driver with the same tweeter or that L18 I noted for the aforementioned reasons.

You're talking $120 for the tweeters and 3" midranges, plus whatever midbasses you'd get. Really not much over $200 all said and done, now getting power is another story but that depends on your current equipment. Hell madisound could design you a passive crossover, wouldn't take much component wise, to let you run the mids and tweeters off the same amp. Time alignment isn't important for tweeters anyway unless you cross them really low, which you wouldn't if you're using a 3" midrange. It would be a good tie-over until you got another 2-channel to run all active. If you plan to get something like an MS-8 in the future you could drive them off of that amp as well.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

lawrence131 said:


> from Danger's rec's I found this post pairing the Seas tweets with an RS180 with apparently great results for cheap... Dayton RS180 + Seas 27TAFNC/G
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/29493-dayton-rs180-seas-27tafnc-g.html
> 
> Only $160 for that combo. I think I will switch to this combo, gotta call the installers in the morning and tell them to halt the speaker install and just work on the Sub and amps for now  thanks for the suggestions.  If I don't like the sound, it'll be easy enough to add the 3" mid later.


I thought you had to pay $200 extra for him to install speakers smaller than 8"?? Just buy an 8. There are plenty that will extend high.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

i described the extra install costs incompletely - it was going to be more both because the 6.5 inch woofer takes longer to mount than a 8 inch which can just drop in the stock hole but also because going 2-way they were going to custom mount the over-sized MB Quart widesphere titanium tweeter at the 3-in midrange location and play around with pointing them properly. So probably at least half the increase in labor cost was going to be the tweeter custom mount, which now sounds stupid since I *SHOULD just use the damn stock holes for 8/3/1. The Widesphere tweet is too big to fit in the stock 1-inch location.

So what about this option? 
Seas 27TAFNC/G
FAITAL PRO 3FE20 - 3" MID-HIGH SPEAKER
Dayton RS225 (would you rec a different one since it'll be just for midbass now?)

I would really prefer to run them all off my 4-channel amp because there are 2 built-in "cabinets" under the floor of the S-class trunk so I want 1 4-channel amp and 1-mono amp for the sub in each cabinet (the long cabinet can fit the 4-ch amp, LC6 summation module, and active crossover). Going full active 3-way I would need 3 separate amps and lose the complete OEM look and space. With this setup what specs would I ask Madisound to make a custom passive crossover with? Something like 4.5 KHz/18db?


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

The Madisound site has this note concerning Xover design.

"What drivers are you using? They must be Madisound stock items."

They don't carry the Faitals, but they do carry the Peerless 3" 830986, which I had in prior to the Faitals. They are impressive, and only $19 ea.

Btw, I didn't check to see if they stock the other drivers you listed.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

Yeah was about to say I don't know if they'd design a crossover for the Faitals as they don't carry them or have all the information about them. The Peerless 830986 is a solid driver as is the Vifa TG9. And they'd design for that. A 5000 or even 6000hz crossover would be fine with either, and as far as time alignment etc you'd only have to worry about the midranges in that case as intensity difference is all that matters with the tweeters at that crossover frequency.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

awesome, thanks again. i think i have what i need for a semi high-end sounding system for relatively cheap. had installer halt the project after installing the amps so i will order some things and continue the install next week. he told me to stick with 8" woofers no more than 3-in so i need to make sure sure the ones above will fit. I'll just order everything from Madisound so they can make the right X-over.

Since the SEAS Prestige CA22RNX is too deep, is there another you would rec for this setup?

Seas 27TAFNC/G
Peerless 830986
-need 8-in woofer no more than 3 inches deep (and that Madisound carries)


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## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

lawrence131 said:


> thanks for the suggestions. that DLS looks like a perfect solution for many European cars, i gotta just think about the price now. 449 Euro + international shipping.


You can buy DLS driect from DLS America or sonicelectronix.com. DLS America is cheaper though


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

That Morel MW266 4 ohm is about the only one madisound has that meets those requirements. It'll do the job nicely, just a little bit pricier than I prefer. But out of your options it'll do better than a 6.5" in the bass department


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

How deep is the Peerless SLS8?

I'd go with a 4-channel for these... two channels run the midbass, and two channels run the mid+tweeter. Then you need only a small (cheap) passive crossover, you have time alignment capabilities, and adjustable level/crossover control for everything but the tweeters. And you could also buy whatever 8" you wanted, including the RS225.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

Do you guys know a place where I can just get various pre-fab cheap cross-overs to play with? I have a feeling the madisound custom ones will end up costing a bit more and limits me to only their products.

Interesting update on this project: I had the install guys halt on the speaker swap but they installed the LC6 summation module, 4 channel amp, and the MB Quart passive crossovers. Just for the fun of it, we summed all the frequencies, sent it to the amp and used the MB Quart cheap passive crossover to send new crossover points to the STOCK 8/3/1 speakers. The tweeter and 8-in stock woofers are going through the amp and crossover, and we left the 3-in midrange the way it was playing through the stock amp and built-in crossover settings.

The difference is amazing - it sounds like a whole new system and I'm not convinced it's just more power. I think the stock crossover point to the tweeter was set too low and they sounded horrible. I almost thought the stocker tweeter was literally broken it sounded so bad on certain segments (probably in songs where it was trying to play too low). My initial install idea was to just replace the stock tweeter with a much better one able to play lower and leave everything alone - almost regret not trying this as it would have been 10x cheaper, and might have actually sounded decent 

But now that I've started this, taken out the rear deck, sub, summed up signals, etc, even though I actually think it sounds pretty damn good now, 80% of the cost and labor has been put in so I might as well finish it. I think I'll start with the Morel MW266 4 ohm driver and that Seas tweeter as direct drop-in replacements and leave the 3-in playing through stock amp and cross-over settings. Surprisingly sounds very smooth and natural ATM. The Morel can play smoothly past 2 Khz based on it's graphs so I think this might actually work as a weird 3-way setup.

thanks for all the help.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

and i wish that peerless SLS would work as it's a fraction of the price and got good reviews, but it's almost 4 inches deep.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

realistically the factory 8" and midrange probably aren't that bad. Proper crossover points would make a big difference I'm sure. Why not try a custom passive on the stock drivers? Something simple but effective?


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

I looked up the specs on the MB Quart passive crossovers the 8" and tweeter are going through. It's set at 2900 Hz, 6/12db. Sounds reasonable since the weaker/shallower stock 8s I'm guessing go up to 3k range fine (it's an "underbuilt" driver that looks under 2" depth). The 3" mid is still just running the way it was stock but seems to either be doing fine or is overpowered by the 8/1 being amped, but the overall sound is balanced.

If I were to try custom passives and leave the 3" alone, does somewhere near 3 Khz where it currently is sound like a good place to start? problem with custom passives is that I have to pick the frequency and stick with it right? I guess I can run just the 8/1 through my active PG cross-over so I can more accurately make an educated guess where the custom passive should be set at?


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm using these, 2way between mids and tweeters;
Dayton XO2W-4.5K 2-Way Crossover 4,500 Hz | Parts-Express.com

They also have 3-way and a few different x-over points.
And the woofer can be changed from 4 or 8 ohm.
Not as great as a custom, but may get you close depending on the impedance of the drivers.
The MS-8 also helps.
BTW, they're very inexpensive.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

i as just looking at those. The have one at 3 Khz/12dB which is basically the same one I plugged in from my MB Quart kit, except the Dayton ones have the tweeter impedance set at 8 ohm instead of 4. Is this a problem for using with 4 ohm car audio pieces?


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

Here are a couple links with crossover info and calculators.

About halfway down the page;
Car Audio Help Guide

Calculator;
Basic Crossover Calculators and Impedance stabilization circuit calculator.


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

lawrence131 said:


> My S-550 I was told has a 3 way comp set up front that I'm not happy with. Can I get decent sound from just running a 1 inch tweeter and 8 inch woofer in the stock locations without using the 3 inch midrange to make it an easier setup? Does the tweeter go low enough or the 8 inch woofer high enough to blend in sufficiently? If so can anyone rec a set that would work OK together?
> 
> I gave the installer an MB premier series 6.5 comp set to put in, but he won't get to it until Saturday so I have some time to change my mind. The install on the 6.5 set is higher due to custom mounting given the 8 inch stock woofer it would be replacing and the widesphere tweeter being oversized. If I just got an 8 inch woofer and a normal 1 inch tweeter the install would be a LOT cheaper and probably cleaner if they could blend together adequately.
> 
> I could save up to $200 on the install to apply to the 8/1inch combo if it would work.


Whats your budget? You could run a quasi-active setup. read this:
http://www.hybrid-audio.com/White%20Paper%20-%203%20Way%20Quasi-Active%20Crossover%20System.pdf 
You could do this without Hybrid drivers per se but I have heard from an installer the hot ticket at his shop is the Imagine 6 set with a Legatia L3 mid. The tweeter is run passive, connected to the midbass via the included cap.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

I just picked up these for cheap ($38):
Eclipse SC-8355/8365 3 way Crossover

Crossover 1400 Hz/5000 Hz
Audiophile-grade, speaker-specific matched component passive crossover with clear lexan cover
12dB/octave high-pass, 6dB/octave low-pass Butterworth Optimum Q crossover filters 
OFC wirewound air core inductors and metallized polypropylene capacitors
Tweeter protection circuit
Variable tweeter sensitivity (-3dB/0dB/+3dB) 

Cheap enough to just screw around with even if it doesn't work out perfect. Will start by swapping out the MB Quart Premier 2-way so I can properly crossover all 3 drivers and amp them. If it sounds good, these frequency cutoffs should open up the possibility to use basically any 8/3/1 combo I want as long as they're 4 ohm and only 3 inches deep.


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

sigh, now looking back the 3" midranges recommended above are both 8 ohm only and since I got these 4 ohm 3-way crossovers I need to find some alternatives lol.

Any recs on good 3" drivers that are available in 4 ohm?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

HAT L3 lol 

Maybe you can order the new PPI 2.5 driver and tell us how sweet it is 

Kelvin


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Haha, Lawrence. What have you gotten yourself into? I couldn't stop lurking, although, you are learning quite a bit!


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## Installer4life (Jun 26, 2010)

Passive crossovers do more than just provide the crossover points for the drivers. You can have different crossovers with identical crossover points but they will sound different. Keep that in mind when you are experimenting. Also different crossover slopes will cause phasing issues and sound quality problems. Best thing to do is get a set that is designed to work together. 8 + tweet + crossover = better sound


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## lawrence131 (Oct 28, 2006)

00poop6x - this "simple" project has turned into dozens of hours of research and tuning and testing haha. it's a fun process though and i haven't blown that much money and learned a lot. almost all the parts were stuff i already had so it doesn't hurt to test anything that isn't reversible. surprisingly with just "random" parts and some logical guesses at what might work it already sounds a ton better than stock.


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

lawrence131 said:


> 00poop6x - this "simple" project has turned into dozens of hours of research and tuning and testing haha. it's a fun process though and i haven't blown that much money and learned a lot. almost all the parts were stuff i already had so it doesn't hurt to test anything that isn't reversible. surprisingly with just "random" parts and some logical guesses at what might work it already sounds a ton better than stock.


It's a very pricey hobby to get into, I am warning you before you get into it deeper.

It is completely satisfying and extremely rewarding, though. Your mind will slowly begin to build psycho-psuedo-acoustic abilities and more $ you spend the better it will sound. BUT, I am glad you have someone like me locally to house all these toys of yours correctly, installation is #1, #2, and #4 on the list of importance of audio.

Good luck!


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Douglas Winkler used an 8 inch Midbass and a tweeter very successfully using a device to reduce beaming of the midbass.

Check out this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...anced/82067-diy-reducing-speaker-beaming.html


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

I know its an old thread, but since someone else bumped it.....
I have been playing with the idea of the Fostex ft48d tweets (play pretty low)
and the fostex fw208n 8". It seems like a pretty good combo that could pull this off. I know people have said why???? Well to me its pretty frigging simple. I can fit 8s no problem in my doors and if I can take away some channels from my system....... GREAT! 
I dont see why it wouldnt work. I can get the tweeters fairly on axis (15deg maybe?) 
and the woofers will be about 30ish deg or so.


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