# silver cables and other questions??



## Need-sq (May 26, 2007)

For you experienced guys out there, I'm wondering if silver speaker wire and/or interconnects make a big difference in sound? If so, generally what charechteristics will silver cable provide? more defined highs, mids?, etc. Also, do you think AG plated OFC wire is good? and whart might be some characteristics of that.

FYI:

receiver: Denon AVR-2307CI
DVD/CD: lower-end Denon 1730 I think.
Power amp for stereo listening: Rotel RB-980BX 
Audioquest Copperhead interconnects from DVD/CD to EXT.IN on receiver
Audioquest Copperhead interconnects from preout on Denon to Rotel
Speakers: Vienna acoustics Bach Grand

I'm not getting the detailed highs I was hoping for (for referecne I'm definitely a soft dome and not a metal dome tweet type, at leat to this point), nor the spaciousness/airiness in my sound stage. I've heard that the VA can be muddy sounding in the midrange/midbass at times and I fear I may be experiencing this. Do you think a good preamp might help my situation and or some silver/silver plated cables? Any and all suggestions appreciated. Thanks


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7517


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

I think your source may have the bigest impact on what you are hearing. If your cd player doesn't retrieve ALL the information from the cd, you'll never get it back. If your going to upgrade I would start at the source and work your way towards your speakers.

I use silver cables but it's not the silver that attracted me to them, it's the low capacitance of the dielectric that turned me on. I also use low capacitance balanced cables and heard a huge difference when I a/b them with my single ended ribbon cables. I'm sure some of that was the floor noise of the single ended cables being a bit higher but the balanced cables were much more revealing.

Matt


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## Need-sq (May 26, 2007)

might you have any suggestions on a source unit? used is fine. I'd like to keep it around $325-$350 if possible.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1205695613
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1205479513

At that price point this is probobly as good as it gets and there are several companies that will modify these players and sell diy kits to mod yourself. I have the 9000es and it's very nice, a little laid back and mellow sound compared to my McIntosh player which is pretty agressive.

Matt


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

Matt R said:


> I ---snipped----- I'm sure some of that was the floor noise of the single ended cables being a bit higher but the balanced cables were much more revealing.
> 
> Matt


1. How would a cd player not "retrieve all of the information" from a cd??????

2. How do you hear "floor noise" (????) from your cables? Sorry, I have to call 'bs' on this one. There is no way you are going to hear "floor noise" from your cables.

3.If you can hear a difference due to what you believe to be lower "capacitance of the dielectric", please explain what it is that sounds "different" to you and how its possible you know its due to the capacitance of the cable.

Just curious, thanks.


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## Need-sq (May 26, 2007)

thanks for the links







Matt R said:


> http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1205695613
> http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1205479513
> 
> At that price point this is probobly as good as it gets and there are several companies that will modify these players and sell diy kits to mod yourself. I have the 9000es and it's very nice, a little laid back and mellow sound compared to my McIntosh player which is pretty agressive.
> ...


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

1 Go listen to a cheap player built with cheap parts and a/b it on the same hi resolution system with a high end player and you decide if there is an audible difference. From the transport to the d/a converters the resolution of the system is based off of the quality of the parts and circuitry of the player.

2 You are correct, floor noise is the wrong term. Induced noise may be a better description of what I've heard in my a/b tests of unshielded single ended vs. balanced cables. I'm not used to people critiquing every word I say.

3 Capacitance is stored energy so when there is a passage in the recording that is complete silence the stored energy in the system is released and it affects the decay of the signal. The note may linger a split second longer than is was on the recording. If you a/b some average pvc speaker cables with some teflon sheathed cables on a high resolution system, you shouldn't have a problem telling the two apart. 

All three of these things are well documented in the high-fi world. Do some research on hi resolution cd players and dac's and the benefits of low capacitance cables in an audio signal. 

Matt


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

couldn't the difference also be resistance, affecting what your hearing w/ the silver cables. I know for the same gauge wire that silver will have less resistance than copper of the same gauge.


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

bdubs767 said:


> couldn't the difference also be resistance, affecting what your hearing w/ the silver cables. I know for the same gauge wire that silver will have less resistance than copper of the same gauge.


Or it could be....an...over...active...imagination.......

All jokes aside, we arent discussing cables that are 50 miles long (are we?) were there would be enough of a difference in resistance or capacitance to make even the slightest bit of an audible difference.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

dtviewer said:


> Or it could be....an...over...active...imagination.......


Wouldnt doubt it...taking a social PSYC class this semester. Your automatic processing, schemas, and heurustics can make you think and do things you will never even realize. Really cool actually, to learn and be aware of these things. And it becomes a lot easier to manipulate people too


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

bdubs767 said:


> Wouldnt doubt it...taking a social PSYC class this semester. Your automatic processing, schemas, and heurustics can make you think and do things you will never even realize. Really cool actually, to learn and be aware of these things. And it becomes a lot easier to manipulate people too


Bet thats an interesting class!! Take notes and tell us about it on here!!!


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

dtviewer said:


> Bet thats an interesting class!! Take notes and tell us about it on here!!!



Hehehe will do, shes told us she will ruin friendship, love, and every pretty much good feeling we have about people lol . My teacher wants me to do a PSYC test of just this topic. See how much people opinions affect what they hear. But studying for the LSATs and the psyc behind the test took priority ...that whole law school thing


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> Wouldnt doubt it...taking a social PSYC class this semester. Your automatic processing, schemas, and heurustics can make you think and do things you will never even realize. Really cool actually, to learn and be aware of these things. And it becomes a lot easier to manipulate people too


Not really automatic but expected due to conditioning, lack of knowledge, peer pressure, pride, and on and on; resulting in an auditory manipulation much like looking at a cloud and actually seeing an object when someone else tells you what they see. Also known as MAGIC


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Not really automatic but expected due to conditioning, lack of knowledge, peer pressure, pride, and on and on; resulting in an auditory manipulation much like looking at a cloud and actually seeing an object when someone else tells you what they see. Also known as MAGIC


It becomes automatic once it starts to fit into ones Schemas....and they tend to have a persistance effect, they don't like to go away even if contradictory evidence is provided.

Theres a term for it actually in social PSYC...Magical Thinking- A thought process based on irrational thoughts.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

Matt....this is no reflect on your comments or your knowledge. I'm not saying your susceptible to these theories in PSYC, but they are relevant and most people thought process so just presenting a possible reason.


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

bdubs767 said:


> It becomes automatic once it starts to fit into ones Schemas....and they tend to have a persistance effect, they don't like to go away even if contradictory evidence is provided.
> 
> Theres a term for it actually in social PSYC...Magical Thinking- A thought process based on irrational thoughts.



So thats why snake oil has become such a popular product!!!


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

I'm glad you guys are having a good time discussing my "magical thoughts" and my "over active imagination". It seems there hasn't been anyone to address the OP's current dissatisfaction with his audio system other than me. 

Maybe you guys can come up with something that could help this guy enjoy audio a little more.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Oh yeah, I forgot to put irrational thoughts in there somewhere.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> It becomes *automatic* once it starts to fit into ones Schemas....and they tend to have a persistance effect, *they don't like to go away even if contradictory evidence is provided*.
> 
> Theres a term for it actually in social PSYC...Magical Thinking- A thought process based on irrational thoughts.



Sorry I mistook automatic for out of our control.

Persistant until we understand and reason it out no? Not persistent in that we have to struggle to get past it like a habit.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

Matt R said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot to put irrational thoughts in there somewhere.


I didnt say you were...more of a comment on all audio vodoo from amps, wires, ect...It was a comment on the way humans think and process information plain and simple, nothing else. If you want I can elaborate more. Not targeting you at all, sorry if it came across that way. I dont doubt you can hear the difference, from what Ive heard from Randy and Winslow you have simply the best tunning abilities on the planet, and from what people say about your truck....I don't doubt you at all and value your thoughts and opinions on this forum.

Sorry if I offended you in any way not my intention but I could see how it could come across this way.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Sorry about the off topic.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Persistant until we understand and reason it out no? Not persistent in that we have to struggle to get past it like a habit.



A schema is mental frameworks centering around specific theme that help organize information. EX. When you go to the Doc's what do you expect every time you go?
-Walk in tell the recpt. your there
-wait 
-nurse come gets you
-wait in the room
-nurse sees you
-wait again
-doc sees you
-wait again
-doc tells you the news
-you leave the room
-you go pay/ set up next time w/ recpt
-leave

Just a rough example, of a common schema for most...its what we are used to through experiences and if it changes we usually ignore it or dismiss it


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> A schema is mental frameworks centering around specific theme that help organize information. EX. When you go to the Doc's what do you expect every time you go?
> -Walk in tell the recpt. your there
> -wait
> -nurse come gets you
> ...


K, thanks. I see now how that comes into play in this topic.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

The biggest difference really is that Silver is a slightly better conductor than copper. The reason copper is used more often is due to price and availability. It's easier/cheaper to get a pure OFC (oxygen free copper) than silver of the same properties.

Ideally platinum is you best bet, as it conducts as well as silver, but doesn't oxidate similar to gold. It's also the most expensive.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

havok20222 said:


> The biggest difference really is that Silver is a slightly *better conductor* than copper. The reason copper is used more often is due to price and availability. It's easier/cheaper to get a pure OFC (oxygen free copper) than silver of the same properties.
> 
> Ideally platinum is you best bet, as it conducts as well as silver, but doesn't oxidate similar to gold. It's also the most expensive.


Correction: Silver conducts electricity better then copper. If it was "a better conductor", it would be cheaper and more wildly available as it would encompass more desirable properties putting higher on the better or worse list.  I'm just busting your balls though, I know thats what everyone means when they say it the way you did.


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## ED27 (Feb 23, 2007)

Need-sq said:


> I'm not getting the detailed highs I was hoping for (for referecne I'm definitely a soft dome and not a metal dome tweet type, at leat to this point), nor the spaciousness/airiness in my sound stage. I've heard that the VA can be muddy sounding in the midrange/midbass at times and I fear I may be experiencing this. Do you think a good preamp might help my situation and or some silver/silver plated cables? Any and all suggestions appreciated. Thanks


Could your listening area be the problem? IMO room acoustics and speaker positioning have a greater impact on the SQ of a system more than any "magical" cable out there.

If your VAs sound muddy try pulling them away from the wall in small increments. You should notice an improvement. Do you have a lot of fabric-based materials (i.e. drapes, carpet, etc.) around your speakers and listening positioning. You might have too much high-frequency absorption thus affecting what you hear. Lastly, how big is the room? If it's a large family room with high ceilings, the VAs you have might not be the best fit.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Correction: Silver conducts electricity better then copper. If it was "a better conductor", it would be cheaper and more wildly available as it would encompass more desirable properties putting higher on the better or worse list.  I'm just busting your balls though, I know thats what everyone means when they say it the way you did.


*******.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Matt R said:


> 3 Capacitance is stored energy so when there is a passage in the recording that is complete silence the stored energy in the system is released and it affects the decay of the signal. The note may linger a split second longer than is was on the recording. If you a/b some average pvc speaker cables with some teflon sheathed cables on a high resolution system, you shouldn't have a problem telling the two apart.


Your room or space will cause more damage then cables or electronics to the decay time. The greatest gains can be made when you deal with the space and the room interaction with the sound. Plain old generic cables can pass bandwidth limited audio signals just fine. 



Matt R said:


> Maybe you guys can come up with something that could help this guy enjoy audio a little more.


perhaps, we should try proper playback methods that deal with the space rather than subject a false space onto another space that is completely different from the orignal recorded space. I think before he spends lots of $$$ he should try another form of playback that is free to try. This is my recommendation.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I propose a simple test that can measure this decay time or reverberation tail that will remove this subjective part of the cable offering an improvement and we can quantify it.

How about we measure an impulse with regular cables and then again with the fancy cables and compare them. Then we can quantify this so called decrease in decay time. Perhaps the home audio world has done these tests? If so I'd love to see them.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

re: audio ideas documented in the hi-fi 'audiophile' world.

Don't read this type of documentation because it's only
there to ignite sales. That's ok, people need to make
a living selling product, but if you are going to buy
fancy audio, do it because you are supporting the manufacturer and placing food on his dinner table, don't
do it because there you expect magic.

re: cable capacitance.
It's basic electronics. Read this link as it explains how
capacitance affects the low pass filtering. You can take
some data and use your calculator to figure out if the
low pass filtering effect is well beyond the audio range.
http://www.rane.com/note126.html

re: capacitor stored energy/released
That is what capacitors do, they store energy and release,
this capactive reactance is what makes filters work. This is
what makes the low pass filter work as stated above. 

re: telfon insulating material found in fancy cables.

Belden offers plenum and non plenum version of cable. 
Typcially the number 8 is the before the part number for 
plenum version. ie, that coax cable 89259 is the plenum 
version of 9256. Plenum versions are high temp cables 
and they use different insulation materials, typcally 
'Teflon' which gives it the high temp rating. The cost is 
huge for plenum. For example, Mouser charges $1900 for 
1000 feet of 89259, Markertek charges $195 for 1000 feet 
for 9259, the non plenum version. 

Some argue that Teflon sounds better. If you look at the cable resistance, inductance and capacitance 
specs below, it's the same. The 'audio specs' are the same for both types of cables the only real difference is 
the material used to gain the higher temperature rating. 

Specs on those two cables, 89259 & 9259 

Belden 89259; Plenum cable aka Teflon.
Nom. Characteristic Impedance: 75 ohms 
Insulation Material: FFEP - Foam Fluorinated Ethylene Propylene 
Outer Jacket Material: FEP - Fluorinated Ethylene Propyle 
Nom. Inductance: .09 µH/ft 
Nom. Capacitance Conductor to Shield: 17.3 pF/ft 
Nominal Velocity of Propagation: 78 % 
Nominal Delay: 1.3 ns/ft 
Nom. Conductor DC Resistance @ 20 Deg. C: 15 Ω/1000 ft 
Nominal Outer Shield DC Resistance @ 20°C: 2.6 Ω/1000 ft 
Outer Shield Coverage: 95 % 
Operating Temperature Range: -70°C To +200°C 

9259; 
Nom. Characteristic Impedance: 75 Ohms 
nsulation Material: FPE - Foam Polyethylene 
Outer Jacket Material: PVC - Polyvinyl Chloride 
Nom. Inductance: .09 µH/ft 
Nom. Capacitance Conductor to Shield: 17.3 pF/ft 
Nominal Velocity of Propagation: 78 % 
Nominal Delay: 1.3 ns/ft 
Nom. Conductor DC Resistance @ 20 Deg. C: 15 Ω/1000 ft 
Nominal Outer Shield DC Resistance @ 20°C: 2.6 Ω/1000 ft 
Outer Shield Coverage: 95 % 
Operating Temperature Range: -40°C To +80°C 

*****************************************

Teflon used in Plenum cable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenum_cable

Plenum cable is used for fire safety in building installations and Teflon is a good material for that. For some reason,
because it's so much more expensive, the audiophiles
think it sound better but it's real purpose is this.


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## Need-sq (May 26, 2007)

ED27 said:


> Could your listening area be the problem? IMO room acoustics and speaker positioning have a greater impact on the SQ of a system more than any "magical" cable out there.
> 
> If your VAs sound muddy try pulling them away from the wall in small increments. You should notice an improvement. Do you have a lot of fabric-based materials (i.e. drapes, carpet, etc.) around your speakers and listening positioning. You might have too much high-frequency absorption thus affecting what you hear. Lastly, how big is the room? If it's a large family room with high ceilings, the VAs you have might not be the best fit.


Yeah, I'm begining to think this is a big part of the issue. My speakers are too close to the wall 13-15" and there are a lot of drapes and soft furniture in the room. Plus, they're only about 7.5-8" apart..........And as I told Zuki, all this might have to do with my inadvertant audition of system cantaining a McIntosh C220 Pre/Pro, MC275 power amp, MCD201 source and a pair of Monitor adio speakers (don't know what model) in a listening room. I was in getting my Rotel "cleaned and polished" at one ofmy local shops. Should have never listed to that system


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

^^^ thats probobly the best suggestion yet, and it's free.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

for what it's worth i did an a/b test with a sony 5-disc cd player and a phillips 3-disc cd recorder and the phillips had more crisp detail to it. source and speakers were a pair of cerwin vega ls12's on a sony reciever all purchased from best buy. i gave that whole monstrosity to my dad and am not using the phillips with a sony g1500 department store setup from the early 90's that my aunt gave me. sounds good enough for me.


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## Silver Supra (Feb 15, 2008)

I used Audio Magic silver cables and really like them - however I would spend your money on the front end before investing in them as they won't be the biggest bang for your buck.

You can find a nice cheap DAC on a-gon which would probably give you the biggest impact for the smallest $.

Here's an old EAD (which I'm a big fan of) 

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1209670785

and a nice Theta

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1209610376

Both of which are close to your budget. Give them a try and if you don't like them you can re-sell them without losing too much money.


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## EVcelica (Dec 30, 2008)

havok20222 said:


> The biggest difference really is that Silver is a slightly better conductor than copper. The reason copper is used more often is due to price and availability. It's easier/cheaper to get a pure OFC (oxygen free copper) than silver of the same properties.
> 
> Ideally platinum is you best bet, as it conducts as well as silver, but doesn't oxidate similar to gold. It's also the most expensive.


Platinum is a poor conductor of electricity compared to silver and copper. obout 5-6 times the resistivity at room temperature.


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## leifislive (Sep 29, 2010)

thylantyr said:


> Plenum cable is used for fire safety in building installations and Teflon is a good material for that. For some reason,
> because it's so much more expensive, the audiophiles
> think it sound better but it's real purpose is this.


Now that is cool...


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