# installed new speakers, now no bass need help



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

Need help, no bass after speaker install. I have a 2000 saturn sl2 and my front speaker on the driver side went out. Up until then I have to admit I was impressed with the amount of bass from the 4 -6.5 in speakers. Sound quality was mediocre but it would rattle my rear view mirror lol. Should have taken a video of that. Ok so made sure mirror was on tight and decided to buy new speakers. Did a lot of reaserch and finally settle on some polk mm651's. Now as a beginner I wanted to play around and this is all new to me so I decided to buy some peel and stick and apply it to the door skin. Everything went in real smooth and looked graeat. No smell and has not run in over 100° weather. Ok back to the lack of bass. Tested polk speaker free air to make sure it was working and got one door installed as a test run. Hooked up cross overs and checked for phase. Woofer makes foward cone motion when applying positive 9 volts to positive terminal. This is both with and without crossover. Ok so good to go I applied 1/4 layer of polyethylene closed cell foam to inner door panel and buttoned up. 

No bass  no midbass 

Woofer cone is moving in and out quite far but no bass. I fade to just that speaker only, sounds ok but not very loud and no low end hardly to speak of. I fade back to rear speakers only, much louder and have low end. I removed door speaker, checked phase again, reversed phase and reinstalled, hard to tell, slightly more midbass on some music maybe it's my imagination. Check door for leaks, all holes are sealed by peel and stick except one big one the door panel recesses into. I cut wood and block that off, still no low end. Check woofer for any binding of cone, it's free and clear. Take speaker iut, put back in phase again and check for forward cone motion upon 9 volt battery positive to positive in speaker terminal. Woofer is at least in phase. I call polk audio, ask for woofer theil smalls. I get response:

Fs=80
Qts=78
mms=14g
Re=2.7
Xmax=4.0mm
Power=100
Spl 1w/1m= 89


Ugh ok so admittedly I am still using the factory head unit from saturn. And the factory speakers are rated at 4 ohms unlike every other saturn I have seen that are rated at 2 ohms.

So I have yet to install the other speaker, but so far what am I doing wrong here or am I just expecting something that is not going to happen. Tweeter sounds fine btw no issues. 

Polk wasn't much help other than to say maybe let it break in more and I had a he'll of a time getting those specs out of them. 

Please help...


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

You need a amplifier.


----------



## maggie-g (Aug 20, 2014)

double check that your door spaker is connected to the correct terminals on the crossover. If you have the tweeter and woofer swapped, it could cause issues. 

to answer your question about what you are doing thats wrong.... first red flag is the peel and stick. Huge mistake. Lots of proof on the net about how bad it is. Second red flag is when you mentioned you cut some wood to put in the door. You didnt mention if you protected the wood against moisture at all. Also, if you sealed the hols in the bottom of the door, you now dont have any drainage for the water/moisture to escape. Could cause mold issues. 

And yes, and amp will help a lot.


----------



## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

If you're using the stock head unit, you're giving maybe 10 watts to speakers that should see no less than 40 and ideally around 60-100 to perform. If you want to upgrade speakers and power them off of a stock or aftermarket head unit, I suggest going with Infinity Reference. There certainly could be other issues like maybe your rear speakers are set opposite phase than the front, you somehow have a high pass crossover set somewhere, etc. Also, it sounds like you're testing just one front speaker which you won't hear much bass from alone, especially powered off of a head unit. Could also be the integrity of their mount - to get bass/midbass, speakers have to be mounted to a solid, dense surface with the immediate area (the door) nicely deadened. Using cheap, flimsy aftermarket speaker adapters is step #1 in screwing yourself out of midbass. Peal N Stick isn't great but it's better than nothing and I don't think that's the primary issue. It's okay to be on a budget, but make sure you take steps to do things right - Peal N Stick is not for cars (it's not made butyl) and you shouldn't have used it. There are "off-brand" butyl options from hardware stores - look for butyl next time. Also, even if it is a small external crossover with these MMs, rule of thumb is to never power a set of speakers with an external crossover (vs. just a capacitor for the tweeter) by only the head unit. Almost every time you will be disappointed.


----------



## Jepalan (Jun 27, 2013)

Factory systems are typically tuned as a matched set to get a certain acoustic response. You will see the complaint of lost bass on many forums when only replacing the speakers with non-OEM aftermarket ones.

I do not have experience with Saturn, but this exact same thing happened when I put Polk DXI components and DB co-axials into my Honda. Lost all bass. It sounded terrible. The only way to get it back was to add an amp and processor - and then it sounded 1000% better.


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Those speakers are 2.7 ohms and probably shouldn't be hooked to most radios, stock or aftermarket. Before you buy an amp, think like this. You want the most midbass from those speakers? You have to put them into or past the rms wattage. That's just considering the supplied crossover. You want to cross them over higher? You can give them even more power.


----------



## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

V 2the C said:


> You need a amplifier.


^^^^what my man above said, i dont know what kind of deck u r running, but most decks put out a max of around 18 rms at the most. Now if u r not wanting to add an amplifier u could just add on sony's new headunit, the mex-xB100bt, which has a class d amp built inside and pushes out 40 rms, that would defiantely help the cause, but if i were u i would just add a 5 channel amp for the spekers and add a sub as well..


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dont forget a proper install.. rip out that peel and seal while you still can too. you will regret it later


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

12 sq. feet of NVX dampener is $50 shipped. 20 sq.feet is $60.


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I have to admit that my ex-girlfriend had a Citroën AX (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIv9H0wvmUxgIVhNcUCh3g5AAP), and I replaced her factory speakers with my DLS speakers. Of course the DLS were better in most ways, but bass was ... less. Not saying the bass of factory speakers is all that, but I know sound and my own listening preferences to know when the bass is where i want it to be and when its not. 

Amp - though it might help, and i hate to sound like a PWK fanboy, but Pete ran his Mirus speakers directly from the HU

Install - I guess what the DLS could have done with is a better install, but not sure that would have cured the issue.


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

Thank you guys for your suggestions I really appreciate it��

First real quick lemme address this peel and stick. I contacted the manufacture to inquire. They state the adhesive will stuck until the underlying surface reaches 150 degrees at which point there will be adhesion issues. Butyl adhesive is claimed to be good to 180 before adhesion suffers. I live in Arizona and today the high hit 105. I used a thermal gun to measure the metal inner door skin and I got a reading of 109 degrees and as measured on the peel and stick it was 108 degrees. My car sat in the sun partially so I assume it could get hotter inside. The outer skin of the car in direct sunlight measured 121 degrees and was super hot to the touch��. I think if the door was exposed to direct sunlight inside the car it could potentially hit 121 degrees at least. This is still well below 150 degrees as specified for the peel and stick. With that being said, I tried peeling back a small corner and guys this stuff is not coming off without some chemical assistance, lots of force and tools��. As for smell, there is none, I even had my mom sit in the car to tell me if she smelled anything and she couldn't smell it��. I do want to say I would be leary putting this on the outer door skin as that could potentially heat up, but if it won't hit 150 then it should be ok. Guys if it's 150 in my car I got bigger problems!☀������

I double checked all wiring and it's the same as before. +9v to positive xover terminal gives foward cone motion��. I cannot check the factory speakers without cutting wires but I think I can safely assume they are in phase. 

The speaker is mounted directly to the factory metal door skin, I can't get it any more rigid than that��. 

The head unit is the factory saturn cd deck��. No idea the power but I know it's not much, maybe 10 watts with 10% thd ������

I did not seal the doors completely, the bottom has the rain drains unmolested. I only covered the inner door skin with peel and stick and a 1/4 layer of closed cell polyethylene. 

That leaves the speaker itself and factory deck. Ok so I am looking for my old pioneer deh p88rs�� I tossed into storage awhile back and use that to upgrade the source and I have a couple older cadence class d full range amps I could use one for testing as they are rated at 120 watts per channel into 2 ohms��.

Does anyone think I am expecting to much from the polk audio speakers? The specs are not what I envisioned. It almost seems they are perfect if you use a subwoofer and cross them over at 80 hz, but just don't expect bass full range. I didn't want to dig out my old alpine plv-7 but it's in perfect shape ��and the only subwoofer I have to slap in this car, but I didn't want to go that far to wire and add caps and alternator uprate etc. as I may not keep the car (the car was free) ��

As it is adding a Hu and amp is more than I wanted to do. I just wanted to install some high sensativity speakers and keep things low key, I am starting to get the bug and I don't know if I can afford it��


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

You shouldn't be expecting anything below 80hz out of any 6.5. Some of the really good ones can play a bit lower and sound good doing it, but unless you have an excellent mounting baffle, well sealed doors and strong 6.5s don't bother trying.


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

Hey thanks, based on the specs I see that's what I was leaning towards, not to expect any bass out of these polks, but that is not why I bought them. Ok so if I want bass up front I probably need a high qts driver with a lower vas and decent xmax...good luck. 

Alternatively, I was tempted to learn to fiberglass and build the ap membrain in the door and just install a completely different speaker. Maybe a seas unit or sb acoustics or some other brand with low qts and low fs and high xmax. 

Ugh well I own the polks I'll see how an 80hz cutoff and some power sounds and if it works I'll have to add a sub.


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Sorry, I skipped by the T/S parameters. An FS of 80 is a little high. Most will quote 50-60's. However, look at some half decent but inexpensive 6.5", 4Ohm home audio drivers, and you can find the odd one in the mid 30Hz region. But for me, 80Hz is a bit too high! Not saying quote T/S parameters are all that, but on that basis alone, i wouldn't expect much bass from them

Just like the Alpine SPR-69's I had which had little to no bass. I didn't understand until I got the Parameters from Alpine UK which I thought was quite high @ 66Hz.


----------



## JungleSlut (May 30, 2015)

Interesting


----------



## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

You absolutly need an amplifier. If you want a good combo of mids and tweeters that will sound awesome for a very reasonable price check out either of these combos
Silver Flute/Vifa
The Madisound Speaker Store
The Madisound Speaker Store

or for a bit more money: Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge
Dayton Audio RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm 295-374
The Madisound Speaker Store
You can then run active using a good HU or a miniDSP


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

Ok those look good. I am minimal on fabrication skills so I don't know if they would fit behind the stock grills without hitting the window. The polks fit but only with enough room to get my hand in between the window and the magnet. I have found my pioneer Hu and am in the process of installing it. Then I can see what happens with that.


----------



## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

What car is it you are installing in? chances are you can find adapters or make them easily from mdf or plastic.


----------



## jode1967 (Nov 7, 2012)

fade to one side. if you have more bass then you have polarity off on one side. change either and all is done


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

It's a 2000 saturn sl2, not sure if anyone makes adaptors. I tried the balance but it's useless for me because I haven't installed the left front yet.


----------



## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

I re-read the entire thread again. Could it be that the Polk x-over is faulty. Can you try the other x-over?


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

Yeah I swapped em out first thing. Xover didn't change a thing. I personally think it's just the specs of the woofer.


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

I just got done wireing up my pioneer Hu. It's only rated at 14 watts rms so it's still way underpowered, but I can set the internal xovers, hell I can even rum a biamp front lol. If an thing sounds better I'll keep heading in the direction of better source and more power and I guess hook up my sub after I do some wireing. Still no smell or melting off of the peel and stick, but I would not use it on the outer door skin just in case. Since it's a saturn and has plastic outer door skins, we'll guess what, they are absolutely horrible at blocking sound. I need to damp those and sound block them real bad.


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

So quick update. Sound is much improved with new hu. I crossed the speaker over at 80hz 12db and I can crank up the volume and all that, no bass but mid bass is tight and greatly improved so I'll keep going in that direction. And my pioneer is a deh880prs. Decent unit but I think I'll put it up for sale if anyone is interested message me. I want a hu with HD Radio as that is mostly all I listen to is the radio and HD is good enough for me.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

madcowintucson said:


> So quick update. Sound is much improved with new hu. I crossed the speaker over at 80hz 12db and I can crank up the volume and all that, no bass but mid bass is tight and greatly improved so I'll keep going in that direction. And my pioneer is a deh880prs. Decent unit but I think I'll put it up for sale if anyone is interested message me. I want a hu with HD Radio as that is mostly all I listen to is the radio and HD is good enough for me.


Giving up that Pioneer for something with HD is likely going to cost you all of the active capabilities that you have. I'm not sure what units are out there with HD Radio, but since there aren't many active capable decks in the first place you may end up having to give up the active option, or at least give up some of the nice features like independent L/R EQ.


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

Yes you are right, however all those active goodies only work in network mode, basically 3way without internal amp. So it will do all the stuff, but I lost the mic lol. Got the remote though. So the auto TA and auto EQ functions don't work. You can, still do it manually. So I figure HD Radio with outside dsp.


----------



## SWRocket (Jul 23, 2010)

Does the AVH5700 not have HD radio? it has network mode I know. In any case, a miniDSP 2X4 is about $150 and can do 2-way front or a 2X8 is a bit more but can do 3-way + sub or 2-way, rear and sub


----------



## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Seeing as this is a 2000 Saturn (no offence), how about going over some of the P&S with some aluminum foil tape to prevent the drip getting too out of hand. I personally go with materials from the hardware store for my resonance deadening. Between the Resisto / Duct seal / aluminum foil tape I can get the results I am looking for without breaking the bank. I have seen high class vehicles using the same!


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

I have no drips here so I dunno what to say.


----------



## madcowintucson (May 21, 2015)

So just an update, the polks sound fine as mid bass only. Don't attempt to make them play below 80hz and they are ok. I am convinced now this was the intent of the design. I get plenty of mid bass, but the sensitivity is quite low compared to the factory speakers. As far as sound quality I am still evaluating that. Probably for the money there are better options, but live and learn.


----------



## williampesek9 (Jan 12, 2021)

The conversation is old but informative and interesting, You guys did a great job with making this clear enough for anyone to understand. keep going 🛵


----------

