# Thinking about doing a blind subjective and measured amplifier test.



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok, I'm kinda sick of the arguing and debating about something that people either A) don't have anything to base their beliefs off of, or B) an obvious case of psycho acoustics. I have yet to see a measured amp test done yet. I have a plethora of zapco dc amps, but it would only make sense to do it with amps of similar power ratings. Most common would probably be 100 watts per channel. I can use a dynaudio and scanspeak 3 way setup with a source from a p99rs in a pretty controlled environment. I have 3 or 4 other local people willing to help and do blind tests, two being average car audio consumers. I also have a few other 4 channel 100 watt amps I could use and I'm sure some of the local guys do too. If anyone would like to let me use an amp or two for this, it would be greatly appreciated. Obviously it will be taken care of very well. Shipping on me. Also if anyone in the tri state area would like to participate, your more than welcome. This would probably be done within. The next month or so.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I will donate the following to the test

PPI Phantom P600.2. You can raffle it off when done. Comes with original box.

I will ship a few other items you can raffle off to the guys. I have a pair of Fountek 89's that only have about 2hrs worth of use. I also have a pair of FaitalPRO 3FE22 that have never seen power. I might have couple other things I can throw in the box for a giveaway.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Not concerned about speakers for now, but a giveaway type thing would be nice. But, either way, the whole point of this would be to finally know the truth. I in particular, do not know if they truly make a difference. I can see both sides to the story about as equal.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Amps would need to be similar power though. And since most amps are 100watts per channel, I might have to just stick to that. Level matching will be done with an oscope and meter to verify no variables


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Ok, I'm kinda sick of the arguing and debating about something that people either A) don't have anything to base their beliefs off of, or B) an obvious case of psycho acoustics. I have yet to see a measured amp test done yet. I have a plethora of zapco dc amps, but it would only make sense to do it with amps of similar power ratings. Most common would probably be 100 watts per channel. I can use a dynaudio and scanspeak 3 way setup with a source from a p99rs in a pretty controlled environment. I have 3 or 4 other local people willing to help and do blind tests, two being average car audio consumers. I also have a few other 4 channel 100 watt amps I could use and I'm sure some of the local guys do too. If anyone would like to let me use an amp or two for this, it would be greatly appreciated. Obviously it will be taken care of very well. Shipping on me. Also if anyone in the tri state area would like to participate, your more than welcome. This would probably be done within. The next month or so.


I want to send in some of MY personal upgraded amps.
I will pay shipping both ways.

And some RCA's for you to give a listen to as well.

Also let me let you borrow an HX-D1 for a test deck.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

WestCo said:


> I want to send in some of MY personal upgraded amps.
> I will pay shipping both ways.
> 
> And some RCA's for you to give a listen to as well.
> ...


Actually I was going to PM you about this because I knew you would be down with it. Much appreciated. I will message you once I'm done with this Christmas eve dinner


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Actually I was going to PM you about this because I knew you would be down with it. Much appreciated. I will message you once I'm done with this Christmas eve dinner


Likewise! 
If we could meet I will unleash the matt roberts modified "class A output stage" panasonic.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Looking forward to this! Oh and happy holiday peeps


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## soccerguru607 (Nov 4, 2009)

Didn't 'captainobvious' did this test not long ago?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm sure Steve will allow me to bring the helix a2... You can use my ears. I can bring a quality set of bookshelf speakers if that will help. If you need a power supply or battery's let me know- I'd also recommend a track with extremely fast midbass as this is where I found the most obvious signs.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

soccerguru607 said:


> Didn't 'captainobvious' did this test not long ago?


His was taking notes on multiple amps iirc... Not an abx type setting.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Down. 

If you want to push the edge of the envelope and use my ZR Labs 2-ways ($5,000 for the set) I'll bring them.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> I'm sure Steve will allow me to bring the helix a2... You can use my ears. I can bring a quality set of bookshelf speakers if that will help. If you need a power supply or battery's let me know- I'd also recommend a track with extremely fast midbass as this is where I found the most obvious signs.


I got plenty of good music with some double bass. But if u want to come up that would be awesome. I'm just not sure on a date


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's not as much power, but if someone from the area is coming up, they can bring my HSS Fidelity HT230 with them to throw an odd ball all class A tube amp into the mix.

I would ship it if someone wanted to pay for the shipping...it's big and heavy.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kenneth M said:


> Down.
> 
> If you want to push the edge of the envelope and use my ZR Labs 2-ways ($5,000 for the set) I'll bring them.


That would be very nice. You in the tri state area? Not sure if I'd have the space to house half the forum but some more people certainly would be nice


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> It's not as much power, but if someone from the area is coming up, they can bring my HSS Fidelity HT230 with them to throw an odd ball all class A tube amp into the mix.
> 
> I would ship it if someone wanted to pay for the shipping...it's big and heavy.


I was creepin on your facebook. That thing is a beautiful monster


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> That would be very nice. You in the tri state area? Not sure if I'd have the space to house half the forum but some more people certainly would be nice


Nah, although I lived and worked in New Yuck for half a year. 

I'll catch a flight out of Texas and book a hotel in the city. All that is no worries.

I can send you some cutouts of the dimensions of the speakers if you want to use them. That way the enclosures will be ready from the get...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kenneth M said:


> Nah, although I lived and worked in New Yuck for half a year.
> 
> I'll catch a flight out of Texas and book a hotel in the city. All that is no worries.
> 
> I can send you some cutouts of the dimensions of the speakers if you want to use them. That way the enclosures will be ready from the get...


No need to do all of that. It won't be that crazy and would probably only be a one day thing


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> No need to do all of that. It won't be that crazy and would probably only be a one day thing


Interesting.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kenneth M said:


> Interesting.


Besides setting up the area and test equipment and whatnot. How long could it possibly take? I'd say no more than a long day


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Question, do you guys think a dsp should be used to get the signal flat first, then start the test, or do it source and amp only


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Question, do you guys think a dsp should be used to get the signal flat first, then start the test, or do it source and amp only


Other note, this "dsp" would be the source unit "p99rs". Or would it be better to leave everything natural


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Besides setting up the area and test equipment and whatnot. How long could it possibly take? I'd say no more than a long day


Agreed on the time scale. Sounds like you were talking about me not needing to fly out there man. Which is no worries either way.


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Other note, this "dsp" would be the source unit "p99rs". Or would it be better to leave everything natural


Happy to let you borrow a dsp pro (with alpine deck + optical out)...
I would welcome an A/B comparison to the P99rs. Also I would entertain the loan of the newest ODR unit...


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Question, do you guys think a dsp should be used to get the signal flat first, then start the test, or do it source and amp only


My suggestions

If possible have full range towers with passive crossovers. No EQ No active crossovers, pure signal feeding the amps.

If someone could let him borrow a pyle or boss amp, that would be helpful.
From what I hear they all sound the same.

I have a VS tube preamp also. But she needs some new tubes after my SPL friend rattled the hell out of them.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

WestCo said:


> My suggestions
> 
> If possible have full range towers with passive crossovers. No EQ No active crossovers, pure signal feeding the amps.
> 
> ...


Borrow a boss amp? Pff it would be cheaper to buy one on Craig's list than to ship it lmao. And yeah I'm just going to get some nice towers some how


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kenneth M said:


> Agreed on the time scale. Sounds like you were talking about me not needing to fly out there man. Which is no worries either way.


Just not sure if u would want to do all of that just for a few hours. I know I wouldn't lol


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Just not sure if u would want to do all of that just for a few hours. I know I wouldn't lol


Anybody have a z400.2 for loan?
I would like to compare it to a ppi900.4


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

WestCo said:


> I want to send in some of MY personal upgraded amps.
> I will pay shipping both ways.
> 
> And some RCA's for you to give a listen to as well.
> ...


If you're not gonna send the Levi, depending on when this is going to be, I could send mine. Need to get it fixed anyway.

I've also got a lower-power MTX amp for a low-end amp rock-in-the-shoe, but it's bridgeable for 100Wpc. Let me dig up specs.

Edit: This one, 100Wpc at 2ohms or bridgeable to 200Wpc at 4ohms, and MTX normally actually does rated or a tiny bit above: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_33848_MTX-RFL404.html
http://archive.mtx.com/caraudio/products/amplifiers/rfl404_amp.cfm

I don't care about that one, it's my backup if the Levi fails for some reason to pass the time with some sound.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

As long as the amp does around 100 watts a channel, it could be used.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> As long as the amp does around 100 watts a channel, it could be used.


Let me know if you want me to send it, have no problem sending the MTX. The Levi would depend on if West is sending his and when this is going to be.

How is this going to be different than the one captainobvious did? Honestly, even if it's no different, just to get another test like this done would be awesome.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Let me know if you want me to send it, have no problem sending the MTX. The Levi would depend on if West is sending his and when this is going to be.
> 
> How is this going to be different than the one captainobvious did? Honestly, even if it's no different, just to get another test like this done would be awesome.


I'm pretty sure captains was just a blind subjective test. This will be that, and measurements with rta. Plus for the blind subjective test, I will have a wide variety of people in it, from people who have years of experience, to average consumers, to someone with no experience at all. Any other ideas will be entertained


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

gckless said:


> Let me know if you want me to send it, have no problem sending the MTX. The Levi would depend on if West is sending his and when this is going to be.
> 
> How is this going to be different than the one captainobvious did? Honestly, even if it's no different, just to get another test like this done would be awesome.


Levi sold today... otherwise I would throw it into the ring.

I regret not sending captain more than just RCA's, I should have done more. This is a do over for me. I am going all out.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> I'm pretty sure captains was just a blind subjective test. This will be that, and measurements with rta. Plus for the blind subjective test, I will have a wide variety of people in it, from people who have years of experience, to average consumers, to someone with no experience at all. Any other ideas will be entertained


I think he did both blind and non-blind (correct term? They knew what amps they were listening to) tests, but didn't measure them with any instrumentation besides ears. So that's cool. Again, even if it was the same, I'd be all for it. Would be awesome to basically take what he did, and just add the measurements portion of it.

Since West isn't sending his, I have a Leviathan III. One channel is currently cutting out here and there though, so I need to send it in before you could take it, so it's going to depend on when this is because I can't send it in until mid-January. Not to mention that's my only other amp, so I'm gonna be without sound. Guess I'll just ride the bike 

Edit: Just hit me; you only need 4 channels right? Levi has 5 other good channels, so I could send it to you then to Mr. Mantz from your place. 

Let me know if you want the MTX or the Levi. When _are_ you looking to do this?



WestCo said:


> Levi sold today... otherwise I would throw it into the ring.
> 
> I regret not sending captain more than just RCA's, I should have done more. This is a do over for me. I am going all out.


Gotcha. Well congrats on the sell. I've got one


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I could bring my $26 bedroom speakers... X-LS Encore speakers – a bargain for bass heads | audiofi.net

Or my trusty old living room pair... Paradigm Reference Monitor 7 v2 Floorstanding Speakers reviews - Audioreview.com


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## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

Unless you're doing this test just to satisfy your own curiosity I don't see much of a point. Blind tests have been performed and amps have been measured already and yet the debate continues and will continue forever. At best the only people that may be convinced one way or another are those participating in the test.


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> I could bring my $26 bedroom speakers... X-LS Encore speakers – a bargain for bass heads | audiofi.net
> 
> Or my trusty old living room pair... Paradigm Reference Monitor 7 v2 Floorstanding Speakers reviews - Audioreview.com


hmmm... decisions decisions


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

gckless said:


> I think he did both blind and non-blind (correct term? They knew what amps they were listening to) tests, but didn't measure them with any instrumentation besides ears. So that's cool. Again, even if it was the same, I'd be all for it. Would be awesome to basically take what he did, and just add the measurements portion of it.
> 
> Since West isn't sending his, I have a Leviathan III. One channel is currently cutting out here and there though, so I need to send it in before you could take it, so it's going to depend on when this is because I can't send it in until mid-January. Not to mention that's my only other amp, so I'm gonna be without sound. Guess I'll just ride the bike
> 
> ...


Gil, if you want to fly out I have the miles to get you there.


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## DBlevel (Oct 6, 2006)

I have several I could donate to the test.

Are you just wanting to stay in the 100x4 power range?

Zuki Eleets 4 channel
Planet Audio hvt754
Arc Audio SE 4200
Lanzar Opti 4100 black/gold
US Acoustics usa4080

Several others you could try as well just maybe not 4 channel.

Have a couple 6 channels as well. Levi I, Levi III and one of the Aura 675h's.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

soccerguru607 said:


> Didn't 'captainobvious' did this test not long ago?


yeah, and the results were awesome. lol


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't want to try and run your test for you but- personal opinion I think trying to limit it to a couple midrange readily available amps (jl,mosconi,phoenix gold, arc) or anything along those lines and an underdog (boss or what have you) and one rather high end amp- Brax helix insert name here...

This should give a full spectrum. 

I have two audio control eqt's if those will help- analog mono 31 band eq's... 

I would also suggest someone not involved in the listening or just listening for fun running and setting up the gear- that way you can set up 2 amps and have at it- then guys take a break while the next set is made ready...

A score sheet with words and definitions with 1-10 might eliminate too much blurryness of "your thoughts on x amp _______" 

Just thinking out loud- don't want to steal your show.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> I don't want to try and run your test for you but- personal opinion I think trying to limit it to a couple midrange readily available amps (jl,mosconi,phoenix gold, arc) or anything along those lines and an underdog (boss or what have you) and one rather high end amp- Brax helix insert name here...
> 
> This should give a full spectrum.
> 
> ...


Good idea about the outside person And some nice towers would be great. I no need for the audiocontrols since I have and can use the p99 as a source. 

For people wanting to donate amps, it could be anything that has at least two channels that are around 100 watts


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

For those interested.

Here's the page with captains finding.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...lind-tests-amplifiers-time-hear-myself-9.html

I say things are encouraging that we just need some even better amps (and some real cheapo's thrown into the mix. I think we could get 75%+ proficiency. 

56% overall proficiency is pretty good for stock amps (to my knowledge all of those amps were stock).

One gent had 70% accuracy, with auditory memory being so poor... I think we can do better, provided we throw some real dogs into the mix. Not just amps that are good (not necessarily great).

There are a few great amps that need to be there, and a few dogs. Mix em up at random.

Song selection is critical. 
Need something that pushes things in critical area's 5-6khz is a very volatile region.

My c2k 6.0 vs a slightly modified c2k 4.0 (bridged)


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> I don't want to try and run your test for you but- personal opinion I think trying to limit it to a couple midrange readily available amps (jl,mosconi,phoenix gold, arc) or anything along those lines and an underdog (boss or what have you) and one rather high end amp- Brax helix insert name here...
> 
> This should give a full spectrum.
> 
> ...


You wrote this as I was searching for captains results!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

WestCo said:


> For those interested.
> 
> Here's the page with captains finding.
> 
> ...


I just can't picture anyone letting me borrow a brax or tru technology or something like that


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## DBlevel (Oct 6, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> I just can't picture anyone letting me borrow a brax or try technology or something like that


I have a Brax x2000 you could try if I still have it.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Just not sure if u would want to do all of that just for a few hours. I know I wouldn't lol


Seems you've made the choice for me. :thumbsup: Regards.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

WestCo said:


> Gil, if you want to fly out I have the miles to get you there.


Well damn dude, thank you! I'd feel guilty accepting though I think. At the same time, depending on when this is, this might be one offer I finally take you up on.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DBlevel said:


> I have a Brax x2000 you could try if I still have it.


How does one lose a brax amp.....


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

DBlevel said:


> I have a Brax x2000 you could try if I still have it.


Must be nice to have so much stuff laying around that you don't know if you still have a damn Brax or not lol.


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

gckless said:


> Well damn dude, thank you! I'd feel guilty accepting though I think. At the same time, depending on when this is, this might be one offer I finally take you up on.


HELL YES!

Im excited to meet you in person and we only live once!!!

This event call for some custom silver conductor RCA's


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## DBlevel (Oct 6, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> How does one lose a brax amp.....





gckless said:


> Must be nice to have so much stuff laying around that you don't know if you still have a damn Brax or not lol.


I'll rephrase the statement....

I have a Brax x2000 available for the test if it hasn't sold by then. 


Lol....


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

When testing any audio equipment one should bring ones own music that they are intimately familiar with. You know the song you have played at least one hundred times. Listening to new information causes to much additional processing. 

Compare only two amps at a time with seamless switching and no sighting of the amplifier. Start with the most expensive amp against the cheapest in the bunch and work from there with a setup similar to NCAA tournament bracketing. 

Sounds like a lot of fun. Wish the event was hosted somewhere warm as I would love to sit in on the test.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Carlton8000 said:


> When testing any audio equipment one should bring ones own music that they are intimately familiar with. You know the song you have played at least one hundred times. Listening to new information causes to much additional processing.
> 
> Compare only two amps at a time with seamless switching and no sighting of the amplifier. Start with the most expensive amp against the cheapest in the bunch and work from there with a setup similar to NCAA tournament bracketing.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of fun. Wish the event was hosted somewhere warm as I would love to sit in on the test.


familiar music wont matter when you change amps at the flip of a switch.. if they do sound different, you will be able to hear it


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Carlton8000 said:


> When testing any audio equipment one should bring ones own music that they are intimately familiar with. You know the song you have played at least one hundred times. Listening to new information causes to much additional processing.
> 
> Compare only two amps at a time with seamless switching and no sighting of the amplifier. Start with the most expensive amp against the cheapest in the bunch and work from there with a setup similar to NCAA tournament bracketing.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of fun. Wish the event was hosted somewhere warm as I would love to sit in on the test.


You can come over any time and test some gear. I'm out in East TN


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

Its much easier if you have a reference, then not only will you be able to hear it and also have individual polling that will determine what is perceived as the better sounding amplifier among the group.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'll throw a turd into the group to see if y'all can tell a difference in double blind. PM me the address to send this PPI Atom. It states 90x4 at 4 ohms but would probably be closer in power to the likely underrated higher end amps amps in bridged mode which is something like 230x2 (yeah right!). I will probably be able to send an old post-zed US Acoustics usx2150 if interested. It's been sitting a while and went through three deer seasons in a friends truck way back when but should still be in good working order. It turned on anyway when I tested it at his house out of curiosity with one of his boat batteries. Didn't have a source or speakers to test it any further.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

WestCo said:


> You can come over any time and test some gear. I'm out in East TN



Thanks for the kind offer Sir. I just may do that once the weather breaks.


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Carlton8000 said:


> Its much easier if you have a reference, then not only will you be able to hear it and also have individual polling that will determine what is perceived as the better sounding amplifier among the group.


Superb idea!

Both amps could be going simultaneously and we would just need to switch the speakers over to the "B" amplifier. 

1)Mute deck
2)Use switch or dual banana plug to change the amp driving the speaker
3)Unmute


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

WestCo said:


> Superb idea!
> 
> Both amps could be going simultaneously and we would just need to switch the speakers over to the "B" amplifier.
> 
> ...


Would be great if you could use this switch. It allows instantaneous switching between amplifiers saving testing time. And according to the article only about fifty bucks to build.

A-B Box For Amplifier Comparisons


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Carlton8000 said:


> Would be great if you could use this switch. It allows instantaneous switching between amplifiers saving testing time. And according to the article only about fifty bucks to build.
> 
> A-B Box For Amplifier Comparisons


Nice, I can pay/contribute if someone can build it... busing building rca's.


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## RandomBeat (Aug 23, 2014)

i could build it, easy peasy.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I used the cheap 16 gauge white extension cords for my test.. Good solid copper and was able to unplug and plug quickly... It was Sunday and I didn't have a switcher hand


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I know it was mentioned but im definetly for eq to be flat just straight source to amp, we dont want someone down the line saying the eq curve favoured one amp over another etc


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## McKinneyMike (Jul 24, 2014)

How are you all going to make sure gains are matched for this testing?


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Its on earlier post, scope and dmm


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Merry Christmas errbody.

so ive been getting a lot of PM's about people wanting to let me borrow amps for this. if you would like to let me borrow an amp for this, please post what amp you have to offer in here so i wont loose track. must be at least 2 channels that do around 100 watts per channel at 4 ohms. thanks


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

How you going to implement momentary switching?


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

RandomBeat said:


> i could build it, easy peasy.


Happy to compensate you for time and parts


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Would you be interested in power supply for powering up amps? I have power supplies I`m about to start marketing, 30, 60, 90 Amp of absolute clean power, no battery required, just 120V receptacle.Can send you one for testing.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> How you going to implement momentary switching?


was talked about earlier on. for the blind comparative testing is only when we will need it, but theres plans for a switch that you can make that costs about 50 dollars in parts.



Victor_inox said:


> Would you be interested in power supply for powering up amps? I have power supplies I`m about to start marketing, 30, 60, 90 Amp of absolute clean power, no battery required, just 120V receptacle.Can send you one for testing.


this would be great. much appreciated. i would of coarse send it right back afterwards, or even buy it if i have the money


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

$50 in parts? get this instead http://www.ebay.com/itm/TEC-TC-616-6-Way-Stereo-Amplifier-Speaker-Comparator-/400090169711?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5d273b816f
connect it backwards so you can use 6 amps with momentary switching between them to one pair of loads.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Why not just buy a switching device? Speaker A B Switch: Consumer Electronics | eBay


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jesus Christ said:


> Unless you're doing this test just to satisfy your own curiosity I don't see much of a point. Blind tests have been performed and amps have been measured already and yet the debate continues and will continue forever. At best the only people that may be convinced one way or another are those participating in the test.


doing it to satisfy my own curiosity, and to get the whole community something to actually base their arguing off of.

Happy birthday BTW


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

i have one like that you can borrow


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I think Parts-Express sells them as well.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> $50 in parts? get this instead Tec TC 616 6 Way Stereo Amplifier Speaker Comparator | eBay
> connect it backwards so you can use 6 amps with momentary switching between them to one pair of loads.





schmiddr2 said:


> Why not just buy a switching device? Speaker A B Switch: Consumer Electronics | eBay


never even knew these existed. thats on my list.

anyone with any amps they would like to add in please post it in here. so far i have:

power supply: victor inox or turbo supra

speakers: turbo supra? or build towers for my dyn mw182, scan 12mu, and scan r2904 (not prefered cause who knows what the response will look like, plus would need to build and design crossovers)

amps:

1) WestCo: upgraded personal amps (?)

2) turbo supra: Helix a2?

3) gckless: Zed levathian

4) DBlevel: Zuki Eleets 4 channel, Planet Audio hvt754, Arc Audio SE 4200, Lanzar Opti 4100 black/gold, US Acoustics usa4080, POSSIBLY Brax x2000

5) Hillbilly SQ: PPI atom, possibly US acoustics usx2150


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm excited to see how the Helix, Brax and possibly a McIntosh? I've owned them all and couldn't hear a difference, be exciting to see these top tier amps go head to head.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> $50 in parts? get this instead Tec TC 616 6 Way Stereo Amplifier Speaker Comparator | eBay
> connect it backwards so you can use 6 amps with momentary switching between them to one pair of loads.


Nice but it does not allow the preferred blind switching of amplifiers by the evaluator. The whole idea with the switch I referenced is that it is noiseless during switching and the tester has no visual or audio clues on the amplifier being switched. True milisecond blind switching without reference to switch positon either. Using more than two amps at a time also defeats the purpose. Here is a little more info on ABX testing from QSC. 

http://www.ackthud.net/shawnfogg/pics/temp/ABX_manual.pdf


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I might even pull my first generation pdx5 and send it that way. I'll pay shipping to and from. You have enough on your plate with this. It birthed at 112x4 on the 4ch section.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

evaluator should give command to 3rd party to make a switch or it`s no blind.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

It is blind if you only have a remote push button in hand with no idea of which amp is switched when you only have a choice of pressing a momentary button. I really hope this test is done to industry recognized ABX testing. Without spending loads of money the remote push button is the closest thing without sourcing a QSC(no longer in production) or a AVA unit ($$$) 

http://www.ackthud.net/shawnfogg/pics/temp/ABX_manual.pdf

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=271&Itemid=238


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Carlton8000 said:


> It is blind if you only have a remote push button in hand with no idea of which amp is switched when you only have a choice of pressing a momentary button. I really hope this test is done to industry recognized ABX testing. Without spending loads of money the remote push button is the closest thing without sourcing a QSC(no longer in production) or a AVA unit ($$$)
> 
> http://www.ackthud.net/shawnfogg/pics/temp/ABX_manual.pdf


Who sells this? Anyone online?


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

They only sold about 300 of the QSC units. I meant to link the AVA ABX that is currently available.

avahifi - The AVA ABX Comparator Switchbox


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Carlton8000 said:


> They only sold about 300 of the QSC units. The AVA is available now.
> 
> avahifi - The AVA ABX Comparator Switchbox


thousand bucks for this? no thank you. QSC unit looks better.
There was none on ebay in the last month. I`ll be fishing for one if it ever pops up.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Interesting when you research this device. Appears that many have used this to compare amplifier sound. I will just let the others search on their own.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I will donate $20 towards the device? SkizeR? Be interesting after researching ABX Comparators...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

lizardking said:


> I will donate $20 towards the device? SkizeR? Be interesting after researching ABX Comparators...


for 1000 dollars? i think ill pass lol. i dont see why this would be needed when theres a much cheaper option.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

In blind testing, it will be important it's actually blind. Allot of good info if you search on blind testing and how it can become quickly biased if not doing truly blind...especially in audio.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

lizardking said:


> In blind testing, it will be important it's actually blind. Allot of good info if you search on blind testing and how it can become quickly biased if not doing truly blind...especially in audio.


i know that. but why do i need this for it to be blind? its not just me doing the testing. i will also have someone else there who isnt testing that will control switching and what not


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

I thought this was good read for blind testing and why it's important to be blind. 


BLIND OBJECTIONS: There are several typical objections to blind testing. But nearly every one has been well addressed. They include:

Switchgear Masking – Some try to argue the relays or switch contacts, extra cabling/connectors, etc. associated with some blind testing somehow masks the differences between gear. But there have been many blind tests without any extra cables or gear. See the Matrix Audio Test as one example where humans simply swapped cables. What’s more, the music we listen to has already been “masked” by all the unseen cabling and switchgear used in producing music. A lot of high end and well respected gear is full of switches and relays. Objection removed.

Listening Stress – Some blind tests are conducted by others administrating the test and listeners may feel some pressure to “perform”. But an ABX box can be used solo, in their own home, under exactly the same conditions they normally listen. Objection removed.

Listening Duration – It’s often said you can’t appreciate the differences between gear by listening to just one track or for just a short period of time before switching. An ABX box can be used at home for whatever duration desired. You can listen to Gear A for a week, then Gear B for a week, and finally Gear X for a week before casting your vote. That could go on for as long as you want. Objection removed.

Unfamiliar Environment – Blind tests are often criticized for being conducted in an unfamiliar environment. Never mind audiophiles can pop into a booth or room at a noisy trade show and claim to write valid reviews of how the gear sounded. But it’s entirely possible to do blind testing in your own home, with your own gear, your own music, at your own leisure, etc. See above. The Wired Wisdom blind test, for example, was done in the audiophile’s homes. Objection removed.

The Test System Wasn’t High Enough Resolution – See above. Blind tests have been done with audiophile’s personal $50,000 systems and the results are consistently the same. Objection removed.

Statistically Invalid – There have been some tests with marginal results that leave room for the glass half empty or glass half full approach as to their statistical significance. But there have been many more that have had a valid statistical outcome over many trials. The math is clear and well proven. Objection removed (for well run tests with clear outcomes).

Listening Skill – Some claim blind tests fail because the listeners involved were not sufficiently skilled. But it’s well established the filtering and expectation bias of our hearing is involuntary—no amount of skill can overcome it. It even trips up recording engineers. Ultimately, if say a dozen people cannot detect a difference, what are the odds you can? Objection largely removed.

Flawed Method – It’s always possible for someone to find flaws with the method. It’s like a candidate losing a political election, demanding a ballet recount, and finding a dead person cast one vote—never mind they need another 7032 votes to win. They want to try and invalidate the election on an insignificant technicality for entirely biased reasons. The same audiophile claiming to listen to a piece of gear for 5 minutes at a trade show and have a valid opinion about how it sounds somehow claims noise on the AC power line masked all differences in a blind test. Really?

It’s Not Real Proof – This is the ultimate weapon for the blind critics. Anyone can always claim something like “it’s possible when rolling dice to get double sixes many times in a row so your test doesn’t prove anything.” And, technically, they’re correct. But, in practice, the world doesn’t work that way. If they really believe in beating impossible statistical odds, they should be spending their time in a Las Vegas casino not writing about blind testing. Drug manufactures are not allowed to tell the FDA it’s possible their drug is really better than the placebo even if the statistical outcome of their carefully run trials indicates otherwise. There are well established standards that are accurate enough to use where human life is at stake but some audiophiles still, amazingly, try to claim these methods are somehow invalid.

WHEN BLIND IS FLAWED: Some in the industry, and the odd individual, have arguably misappropriated blind listening. For example, the UK magazine Hi-Fi Choice conducts what they call “blind listening group tests”. But instead of following proven and established guidelines for blind testing to determine if the listeners can even tell two pieces of gear apart, they seem to let their judges listen to gear as they choose over multiple listening sessions and take notes on their impressions without presumably knowing which gear is playing. This method suffers from much of the same filtering and expectation bias as sighted listening as they’re expecting differences so they hear differences. As far as I can tell (the published details are vague), they’re not directly comparing two pieces of gear looking for statistically significant differences over several controlled trials. There doesn’t seem to be any voting or scoring to determining what differences are real versus simply a result of expectation bias. Studies show one might blow their entire method out of the water by simply running their usual test with say 5 different amplifiers but, instead of playing all 5, repeat one of them twice and leave one out. I’ll bet you serious money they would hear all sorts of differences between the two sessions with the same amplifier playing. This has been done in blind wine tasting and some of the greatest perceived differences were between identical wines poured from the same bottle (check out the wine tasting podcast interview).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

still not getting why i need that exact switcher..


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Just curious... Why do the switching on the fly? why not take a few moments listening to amp "A" then a few more moments to listen to "B"? If there is a notable change then you should be able to pick out "A" or "B" with a reasonable amount of accuracy- the person doing the switching can tally your results and you can hold up a card or a finger to indicate which amp you think you're listening to...


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

lizardking said:


> I'm excited to see how the Helix, Brax and possibly a McIntosh? I've owned them all and couldn't hear a difference, be exciting to see these top tier amps go head to head.



Takes a phenomenal source unit to really have the amp be the weakest link.

Mac home amp>Mac car amp with the exception of the 602tn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> Just curious... Why do the switching on the fly? why not take a few moments listening to amp "A" then a few more moments to listen to "B"? If there is a notable change then you should be able to pick out "A" or "B" with a reasonable amount of accuracy- the person doing the switching can tally your results and you can hold up a card or a finger to indicate which amp you think you're listening to...



This works for me at home, but it takes longer overall. The need to listen to a few songs then switch. 

That's a good way to do it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> still not getting why i need that exact switcher..


I don't think you need that exact one if you can build one like it. The key seems to be the ability to switch without doing nothing more than hitting a button. Seamlessly switching with the listener not knowing the amp was switched.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> Just curious... Why do the switching on the fly? why not take a few moments listening to amp "A" then a few more moments to listen to "B"? If there is a notable change then you should be able to pick out "A" or "B" with a reasonable amount of accuracy- the person doing the switching can tally your results and you can hold up a card or a finger to indicate which amp you think you're listening to...


if you can do it without any pause you will undoubtedly notice the difference if there is one. there wont be a "i dont remember what the other sounded like" type of deal.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

WestCo said:


> Takes a phenomenal source unit to really have the amp be the weakest link.
> 
> Mac home amp>Mac car amp with the exception of the 602tn
> 
> ...


Tru Technology amps were forum boner amps years ago. People would claim SQ GOD like sound. Be nice to see one of those in the mix.


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## WestCo (Aug 19, 2012)

Lizard, the duration and learning the environment you mentioned is critical.

Have a reference system will help a lot, some basis for all the comparisons. Everyone participating should spend at least 30 min getting familiar with it at the start before any switching.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

I second getting a firm baseline... 

A simple A/B switcher should do the trick...


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

WestCo said:


> Lizard, the duration and learning the environment you mentioned is critical.
> 
> Have a reference system will help a lot, some basis for all the comparisons. Everyone participating should spend at least 30 min getting familiar with it at the start before any switching.
> 
> ...


In my research it appears letting people see the gear or become familiar with it leads to inconclusive results. I'm no expert, but I would think the less the person knows the more accurate the results. I would keep everyone in the dark in terms of what I had and how it was going to work.


I need to read my posts before posting....sorry made corrections.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I'll send you one of my Eclipse amps. Any one you like. The 32430 or 32330 fit your requirements perfectly. I've never switched amp brands because I have never heard an amp sound different myself. I have had speakers, placement, tuning, source, and even RCA's (interference) sound different. Never a comparable amp (quality, power) in the same setup sound different. I am very interested in these tests.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

This came from another forum member and maybe someone can clear this up.

"I find it very interesting that basically NOONE in that amp testing thread is discussing how they are gonna measure the amps. I don't even think these people are competent enough to do it but I might be wrong.

You can measure non-linear distortion with dummy load and a O-scope with a FFT display to see how they performs near their limits. You can also Build a voltage divider that can handle the high voltage from a Power amplifier and use it directly into the soundcard of a computer to analyze with ARTA or STEPS for example. A zener diode should be used on the line-in to protect it from over voltage. FR is easy to do measurements off, use a very small input signal so output rms voltage lies around 0,5-1V or so. This shouldn't overload any computer soundcard. Resolution should be 96kHz/24bit with a noise floor of about -120dBFS for accurate readings. Non-linear distortion readings should be done at very small output and at very high output (near clipping) to find out how it performs near the extremes. Also make sure to test all amps with a resistive load to make sure that none clips at any levels. All gains should be set to compensate for the lowest powered amp. Don't trust specs.

There's a higher chance of audible differences when driving speakers with difficult loads, i.e 3-ways with tall order filters if the amp is designed badly. A good fullrange driver comes much closer to a resistive load condition (except at resonance). Reactive loads tend to lower the overall output, if driving a Speaker with low impedances and tall impedance phase shifts you should consider 10% less Power overall from the resistive load power measurements. 

A listening test - if conclusive of anything means NOTHING without knowing WHY some thing deviated, measurements will show it, whether those audiophile fanatics believe it or not. I've done 3 blinds tests of amps and they were not conclusive of audible differences or any form of "character". Some Mosconi amps have a non-flat response so those do sound different, tested that myself. Still, completely meaningless in a Car with applied tuning by DSP".


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

lizardking said:


> This came from another forum member and maybe someone can clear this up.
> 
> "I find it very interesting that basically NOONE in that amp testing thread is discussing how they are gonna measure the amps. I don't even think these people are competent enough to do it but I might be wrong.
> 
> ...


im not looking to go so in depth that im plugging the amp directly into a computer and measuring THD and all that good stuff. what i want to do, is to see if there is anything that is measurable off of the speakers the amps will be powering with an RTA in a controlled environment. although checking out the spectrum through a soundcard onto the computer would be nice.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

BLIND LISTENING GUIDELINES: There’s a lot of info on how to conduct reasonably valid blind testing and some of it gets very elaborate. But don’t let that scare you from trying it. If you’ve never tried blind listening before you might be surprised how quickly it opens your eyes—even a very simple test. As many wine critics have found out comparisons immediately become much more difficult when you don’t know which is which. You can get more meaningful results from just following some simple guidelines:

Compare only two things at a time until you reach a conclusion 

Always use identical source material with no detectable time shift between A and B 

Match levels to ideally 0.1 dB using a suitable meter and test signal

Watch out for unintentional clues that might hint at which source is which

Ideally perform enough trials to get a statistically valid result (typically 10 or more but even 5 can be informative)


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Before conducting tests, I would recommend reading some of these articles to help gain insight and it may help others understand exactly what is going on. Some of it is very technical and boring.....be warned. 

NwAvGuy: What We Hear

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

Audioskeptic's blog: Why We Hear What We Hear, Part 2

Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests

The Dan Rather Approved Douglas Self Site

AES E-Library » Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm


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## RandomBeat (Aug 23, 2014)

id be willng to build that switch posted a few pages back, and donate it to the testing... also may have a couple amps to contribute... are we looking for rated 100 @4 ohm power, or actual? (have a old school punch 40dsm, in amazing shape, i could send...)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RandomBeat said:


> id be willng to build that switch posted a few pages back, and donate it to the testing... also may have a couple amps to contribute... are we looking for rated 100 @4 ohm power, or actual? (have a old school punch 40dsm, in amazing shape, i could send...)


that would be awesome! is it possible to make one that you can hook up multiple amps to? and as long as its around 100 watts per channel and has at least 2 channels


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## RandomBeat (Aug 23, 2014)

sure, we could change the spec a bit and make one to suite the test... might not be quite the same, as far as the listener having a handheld, simple a/b switch... but i dont see why we couldnt design more,of a table top, rotary controlled swich. How many are we thinking there will be total? Ill research options on switches...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RandomBeat said:


> sure, we could change the spec a bit and make one to suite the test... might not be quite the same, as far as the listener having a handheld, simple a/b switch... but i dont see why we couldnt design more,of a table top, rotary controlled swich. How many are we thinking there will be total? Ill research options on switches...


idk, i have a lot of people offering up amps, but ideally no more than ten. i would like one bottom of the barrel amp, 2 budget, 2 or 3 mid grade, 2 or 3 higher end, then 1 or two "unicorns". gives us a good variety i think


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

If you don't keep the 'real' power in the same range they will sound different because of the dynamics they can produce while listening. How do you plan to limit higher power amps?

Josh


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

JoshHefnerX said:


> If you don't keep the 'real' power in the same range they will sound different because of the dynamics they can produce while listening. How do you plan to limit higher power amps?
> 
> Josh


where did i say i would use high power amps against low power amps? i said around 100 watts per channel. from there levels will be set by scope and spl meter


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

JoshHefnerX said:


> If you don't keep the 'real' power in the same range they will sound different because of the dynamics they can produce while listening. How do you plan to limit higher power amps?
> 
> Josh


Sorry Josh, but that's not how it works.

Either an amplifier can produce a waveform or it cannot. There is no magic allowing a higher powered amplifier to produce anything more than a lower powered amplifier, so long as they are both set to the same amount of gain. If you use a DMM to verify identical gain and if you use a scope to make sure both amps are not clipping, there are no "extra" dynamics that can be produced. You can test a 5w amplifier against a 500w amplifier so long as the 500w is driven at a level that the 5w can produce cleanly.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

switching is not as simple as it looks,what exactly switching? amp speaker outs? meaning amps powered up and 100% operational at any moment?how source signal switched between amps?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> switching is not as simple as it looks,what exactly switching? amp speaker outs? meaning amps powered up and 100% operational at any moment?how source signal switched between amps?


not sure if it would work as simple as it seems in real life, but..

have all amps power and ground in parallel so they are all powered, have the turn on wires along with the speaker wires on the switch, and have the signal wires wired in parallel. or would this not work?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

speakers can`t be connected to both amp outputs all the time, some kind of relay switching must be implemented. momentary from one amp to another.
multi group relays of some kind.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

all amps powered will demand a lot of current.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> all amps powered will demand a lot of current.


not if theyre not turned on and not playing


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Low level in parallel, not switched. Speaker level wired to switch. Leave all amps on, use switch to choose the one powering the speakers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

schmiddr2 said:


> Low level in parallel, not switched. Speaker level wired to switch. Leave all amps on, use switch to choose the one powering the speakers.


not a bad idea

edit: now that i think about it, idk if thatll work (if you mean use the switch on the speaker wires). how would you switch the positive and the negative at the same time? unless you had the negative in parallel with all amps, but im not sure if that would effect the amps in any way.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

WestCo said:


> For those interested.
> 
> Here's the page with captains finding.
> 
> ...


Sorry to stir the pot... but 56% accuracy is promising to you? That's essentially as good as guessing. 

Am I missing something?

I look forward to this test's results, however.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

schmiddr2 said:


> Low level in parallel, not switched. Speaker level wired to switch. Leave all amps on, use switch to choose the one powering the speakers.


low level in parallel meaning you`d disregard input impedances of separate amps? low levels must be switchable as well to completely separate components.
all amps must be on at all times. or test will be screwed.
more i think about it more complicated it seems.
I use audio Authority comparator I posted picture before but it`s not blind.
It`s good enough for compare components on the fly though...
Also using same exactly power from different amps to the same load doesn`t means much as we all use different speakers. Speakers A will sound better with amp B, while speakers B with amp A. 
more I think about it less meaningful that test seems to me.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

How would you compare pure class A single ended tube amp with 12W/ch with 300W class AB? Say you`d use 92DB widebanders?


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> not a bad idea
> 
> edit: now that i think about it, idk if thatll work (if you mean use the switch on the speaker wires). how would you switch the positive and the negative at the same time? unless you had the negative in parallel with all amps, but im not sure if that would effect the amps in any way.


On the switch there will be 2 wires out per speaker, pos/neg. Then wire each amp to the switches "poles"; the switch will need to be able to switch 2 poles at a time, pos/neg.

But as Victor mentioned, I'm also worried about input impedance and voltage, although this might not be an issue with oscope level setting.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> How would you compare pure class A single ended tube amp with 12W/ch with 300W class AB? Say you`d use 92DB widebanders?


vic, i stated it like 6 times already. all the amps in the test will be around 100 watts per channel


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> vic, i stated it like 6 times already. all the amps in the test will be around 100 watts per channel


100 is a good round number, doesn`t mean much, very high end amps make much more, will you be limiting their possibilities for the sake of the test?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> 100 is a good round number, doesn`t mean much, very high end amps make much more, will you be limiting their possibilities for the sake of the test?


your saying very high end amps do double their rated power? i guess i will find out, but either way, all amps will be set to the same level. i dont think setting an amp lower than it can go will effect its sound quality, so no i dont think this will limit their possibilities


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I guess we`ll see.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> I guess we`ll see.


speaking of high end amps.. i know you have a ton in storage


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> speaking of high end amps.. i know you have a ton in storage


I have a few.....


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I think best way to switch between amps, power and remote wired all coneected up so all amps on, you should be able find an rca selector easily dont know if they do it for 10 but im sure someone can build if needed. And for speakers some sort of double pole slider switch so theres no chance of amps shorting out with eachother, obviously you would need 2 sliders one for left and one for right. Lastly essentially your hot swapping rcas if anytym you change with deck swotched on which your thinking p99? Be careful about pico fuse


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

JVD240 said:


> Sorry to stir the pot... but 56% accuracy is promising to you? That's essentially as good as guessing.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> I look forward to this test's results, however.





If they perform the test accurately in which follow the standards in blind testing, their outcome will be the same as all the other tests conducted. Inconclustive....I doubt that somehow after 30yrs of testing that this test will yield something the others before didn't. However, I'm also pretty excited about reading the results.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Has anyone laid out exactly how the measurement portion will be conducted? What is being measured and with what equipment?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ImK'ed said:


> I think best way to switch between amps, power and remote wired all coneected up so all amps on, you should be able find an rca selector easily dont know if they do it for 10 but im sure someone can build if needed. And for speakers some sort of double pole slider switch so theres no chance of amps shorting out with eachother, obviously you would need 2 sliders one for left and one for right. Lastly essentially your hot swapping rcas if anytym you change with deck swotched on which your thinking p99? Be careful about pico fuse


No Pico fuse in the p99


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

lizardking said:


> Has anyone laid out exactly how the measurement portion will be conducted? What is being measured and with what equipment?


Probably going to go with advice posted earlier and get a soundcard and have em measured thru the computer. I haven't looked into it to much because I don't want to waste my time doing so if I can't get the right stuff to do this in the first place


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Do you have a rough date picked out? Or a month?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> Do you have a rough date picked out? Or a month?


Hopefully January


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

PM those of us willing to contribute a shipping address once you decide when this is going to happen. I have 3 amps to send...one well known for not being the best because the tech wasn't what it is now when it was released, one that so far I think I'm the only one on here that has had ears on it, and one that's an old but predictable a/b cow.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> PM those of us willing to contribute a shipping address once you decide when this is going to happen. I have 3 amps to send...one well known for not being the best because the tech wasn't what it is now when it was released, one that so far I think I'm the only one on here that has had ears on it, and one that's an old but predictable a/b cow.


Well what amps do u have? I would like to do a wide variety of quality.


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## 1fastkingcab (Nov 23, 2010)

I think you just might be over thinking the situation 

Low level in parallel, not switched. Speaker level from each amp wired to 4-pin female weather pack connectors securely attached to a hand held piece of MDF . Leave all amps on, allow the listener to switch to and from any amp by hot swapping a 4-pin Male weather pack connector that is wired to the main speakers to choose which amp is powering the speakers.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Well what amps do u have? I would like to do a wide variety of quality.


PPI Atom 1000.4 and 1st generation Alpine pdx5. My buddy didn't give the OK to send his US Acoustics usx2150 so that one's out.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> PPI Atom 1000.4 and 1st generation Alpine pdx5. My buddy didn't give the OK to send his US Acoustics usx2150 so that one's out.


Pdx sounds perfect


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Anyone have a class d amp from when class d amps were newer technology? I always hear people say "as long as it's a newer class d amp it will sound fine".. would be nice to see if there's any truth to this as well


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Sounds like you're going to be testing for a few days


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Anyone have a class d amp from when class d amps were newer technology? I always hear people say "as long as it's a newer class d amp it will sound fine".. would be nice to see if there's any truth to this as well


My pdx5 is one of those amps. A buddy of mine in Texas bought it right after it came out. It is a 1st gen pdx back when they were the only game in town when it came to fullrange d. Well, I think Eclipse had their ICE class d and Pioneer may have had their fullrange d out...but the Alpine was the one everyone was rushing to get. The Atom I'll be sending will be the one to test against something higher end and then against the pdx. It's a pretty weak amp even in bridged mode so should be right in line with the other 100x2 amps. I bet it would be lucky to do 150x2 4 ohm bridged.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> Anyone have a class d amp from when class d amps were newer technology? I always hear people say "as long as it's a newer class d amp it will sound fine".. would be nice to see if there's any truth to this as well


I already offered up one of my Eclipse.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> I already offered up one of my Eclipse.


When did that come out? I didn't think they were class d


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> My pdx5 is one of those amps. A buddy of mine in Texas bought it right after it came out. It is a 1st gen pdx back when they were the only game in town when it came to fullrange d. Well, I think Eclipse had their ICE class d and Pioneer may have had their fullrange d out...but the Alpine was the one everyone was rushing to get. The Atom I'll be sending will be the one to test against something higher end and then against the pdx. It's a pretty weak amp even in bridged mode so should be right in line with the other 100x2 amps. I bet it would be lucky to do 150x2 4 ohm bridged.


I'm thinking even older than that


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> When did that come out? I didn't think they were class d


Your right. I just looked it up. They came out in 2001. Only the two channel/mono amps from that series are class D. The four channels are not. All this time I thought they were. Thanks for questioning it. I have the least powerful, but it's still 250x2 @ 4ohm. Probably too much for this. If your interested I have the XA 5000. Came out in "04" it's about 100 x 4 + 450x1

The last two amps I mentioned are class D.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

If you guyz were closer, I'd send one of my Prestigio for the cause  

Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> If you guyz were closer, I'd send one of my Prestigio for the cause
> 
> Kelvin


Where are you that it's so far away?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> Where are you that it's so far away?


Tahiti, French Polynesia 










Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Tahiti, French Polynesia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. That is far. When will u be back?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gregerst22 said:


> Sorry I didn't read the whole thread but if this were to happen who will be taking the challenge? Because the way I see it most differences, if any, will be minuet & subtle such that your average Joe is going to miss it. They'll most likely be expecting dramatic differences. i.e. To my mother all amps will definitely sound the same.
> On the other hand an 'audiophile' that has already determined that all amps sound the same will go in with that mindset and his results will be skewed whether consciously or not.
> This could work if the people participating in the challenge A) believe that different amps can sound different or are truly open to that notion and B) Know what to listen for and how to do it. Honestly, how many people are really good at critical listening?


Me, and a few local and semi-local people. Anywhere from experienced to average consumers


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> Wow. That is far. When will u be back?


July, on holiday, so not for too long 

Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

anyone know how i can measure frequency response directly from an amp into a sound card?


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Create a voltage divider using very high values of resistors to keep the current flowing through them very low (somewhere in the many thousands of ohms). Use the formula to get a Vout voltage of about 0.3 volts, then you can run it directly into the line input of any sound card.

Ideally you will want to parallel a dummy load across the amplifer's terminals as well, though it may be a little harder to find resistors rated for 100watts.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> Create a voltage divider using very high values of resistors to keep the current flowing through them very low (somewhere in the many thousands of ohms). Use the formula to get a Vout voltage of about 0.3 volts, then you can run it directly into the line input of any sound card.
> 
> Ideally you will want to parallel a dummy load across the amplifer's terminals as well, though it may be a little harder to find resistors rated for 100watts.


thanks. ive also been told elsewhere that a transformer would be prefered over a resistor network. but thats the easy part. do you know if and how i could measure the amps output directly on REW or another program?


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> thanks. ive also been told elsewhere that a transformer would be prefered over a resistor network. but thats the easy part. do you know if and how i could measure the amps output directly on REW or another program?


I'm not sure if a transformer would be more ideal than a resistor network. Transformers have inconsistencies of their own that will appear in your measurements ... unless you get really nice transformers (read expensive). The neat thing about the voltage divider is a resistor does not contribute or mask anything from the audio signal (which is why they are commonly used in crossover networks to pad tweeters without any ill effects), and the parts can be had for about a dollar.

Using a voltage divider, you can simply plug the output of the network to a sound card and run REW or any other program you like. It's the same as making measurements like normal with a microphone, except the output of the voltage divider is feeding your sound card instead of a microphone.

I'll see if I can come up with a little bit more complete diagram for you.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> I'm not sure if a transformer would be more ideal than a resistor network. Transformers have inconsistencies of their own that will appear in your measurements ... unless you get really nice transformers (read expensive). The neat thing about the voltage divider is a resistor does not contribute or mask anything from the audio signal (which is why they are commonly used in crossover networks to pad tweeters without any ill effects), and the parts can be had for about a dollar.
> 
> Using a voltage divider, you can simply plug the output of the network to a sound card and run REW or any other program you like. It's the same as making measurements like normal with a microphone, except the output of the voltage divider is feeding your sound card instead of a microphone.
> 
> I'll see if I can come up with a little bit more complete diagram for you.


Simple enough. Thanks. I'll look for more in depth plans for a network tomorrow.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

turbo5upra said:


> His was taking notes on multiple amps iirc... Not an abx type setting.



Mine was actually multi-part. The first part the testing group did was demo the amps non blind and make notes. Then they demo'd the amps blind and took notes. This was done to see how the responses might align, or not with what they said while *knowing* what the amp was. Finally, we did a full blind AX test which, in my humble opinion, is even easier and more effective than an ABX test. I used mechanical switch boxes and all amplifiers were properly level matched prior to all testing, as verified by the testing group.

So yep, we did proper blind testing


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> Besides setting up the area and test equipment and whatnot. How long could it possibly take? I'd say no more than a long day



I prepped everything ahead of time, and then brought it to the hotel conference room where we did the testing. I got there about 2 hours ahead of time to start setting things up. Testing with a small group took about 6 hours if I remember correctly, with several breaks in there. You have to account for some breaks for lunch and ear fatigue


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> Question, do you guys think a dsp should be used to get the signal flat first, then start the test, or do it source and amp only



No. Keep as few components in the chain as possible. Remember, every amplifier is playing the same signal received.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Carlton8000 said:


> Its much easier if you have a reference, then not only will you be able to hear it and also have individual polling that will determine what is perceived as the better sounding amplifier among the group.



You make a good point. My suggestion, would be to pick two tracks to use for the day. Make it known which two tracks will be used, and then everyone attending has plenty of time to become "familiar" with those tracks prior to the testing date. Then everyone is on the same page.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Victor_inox said:


> i have one like that you can borrow



One of those would be perfect if you can use it backwards. Nice! I used basically a similar setup with the mechanical switchers, but I had to use 2 of them since mine didn't have as many positions as yours. Nice!


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Carlton8000 said:


> Nice but it does not allow the preferred blind switching of amplifiers by the evaluator. The whole idea with the switch I referenced is that it is noiseless during switching and the tester has no visual or audio clues on the amplifier being switched. True milisecond blind switching without reference to switch positon either. Using more than two amps at a time also defeats the purpose. Here is a little more info on ABX testing from QSC.
> 
> http://www.ackthud.net/shawnfogg/pics/temp/ABX_manual.pdf



The evaluators must know when the switch takes place in order to make a comparison between one and the other.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Btw, Skizer- Shoot me a PM when you have a moment. I'll be happy to share some info and methodology from my testing. Might save you a bunch of time.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

Not sure if I understand. If the evaluator presses the remote a switch takes place. This switching takes place instantly and co go back and forth as many times as desired. Its use can also speed up the evaluation. If some of the participants are not able to id a difference and some are the ones with the more astute hearing can move further in the participation. If proper established guidelines do not take place the test is invalid.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Carlton8000 said:


> Not sure if I understand. If the evaluator presses the remote a switch takes place. This switching takes place instantly and co go back and forth as many times as desired. Its use can also speed up the evaluation. If some of the participants are not able to id a difference and some are the ones with the more astute hearing can move further in the participation. If proper established guidelines do not take place the test is invalid.


Here's the deal...Unless you plan (as the test conductor) to run tests individually for each tester over a long period of time, then the participant doesn't control any of the switching. Imagine how long it would take to have each participant sit in by themselves to switch back and forth between sources and do this for pairs of 8...10, maybe even more amplifiers. This doesn't sound like what Skizer is looking to do. 


For everyone's understanding of what I did in my tests, here you go. This way everyone is on the same page as it seems as though some people are unclear on exactly what was performed with my testing group.


The event began with an informal and brief introduction and to explain what we’d be doing over the next few hours. Before any actual demoing was done, it was important to ensure that all of the amplifiers were set properly for equal output voltage . With two testers as assistants, we tested each amplifier individually and set all amplifiers gains to within +/- 0.03v. We played some music through the speakers and then each tester was assigned a random tester number and given an initial setup/sign off sheet.


 Next, I started off with NON-blind listening evaluations of each of the 8 amplifiers used in the tests. I told the testers which amplifier was being played and a little about it. The testers were given a sheet to provide their comments on each of the amps sampled. (This was done to make a comparison of Blind vs NON-Blind results)

In an effort to avoid “listener fatigue”, we took a break preceding each of the_ series_ of tests. Next up, I provided the testers with a new sheet and proceeded with BLIND listening evaluations on each of the 8 amplifiers. The testers were again asked to provide their comments on each of the amplifiers they sampled, this time not knowing which was being played. At this point, no comparisons had been made, simply non-blind and blind "listening evaluations".


Following another break, I provided a new sheet for a different comparison. In this final series of evaluations, I conducted blind “AX” tests. These tests are designed to provide a sample (reference) of amplifier A, and then an unknown “X” sample. The X sample can be either amplifier A again, or a different amplifier. The method is performed as such: In a series of 10 samples, the reference amplifier A is announced and played with a 30 second clip, followed by the X amplifier announced and played with a 30 second clip, followed by A, then x and so forth until the answers of all 10 samples are recorded by the testers. The testers were asked to pick which amplifiers they wanted to use as the reference A amplifier in each of 6 groups of tests. I selected which amplifier would be paired up as the “different” amplifier in the comparisons for each group.
I decided after some research to go with the AX test instead of the ABX test for this reason: Testers don’t have to rely on more “memory” to make the evaluation. In an AX test, a participant simply determines if the unknown (X) is the *same *as the reference (A), *or different*. In an ABX test, the participant has to remember both sources and then determine which of those 2 is playing as the (X) unknown. The AX test should technically be “easier” to determine a difference.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> You make a good point. My suggestion, would be to pick two tracks to use for the day. Make it known which two tracks will be used, and then everyone attending has plenty of time to become "familiar" with those tracks prior to the testing date. Then everyone is on the same page.


Every reviewer should have his or her own personal reference CD. One day is not enough time to become acquainted enough to a new tune.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Carlton8000 said:


> Every reviewer should have his or her own personal reference CD. One day is not enough time to become acquainted enough to a new tune.



I didn't say give them the track the day of. I'm saying, give the testers the two tracks to be used with plenty of advance time to listen and become familiar with it leading up to the day of the event. 

People inevitably want to do the testing with familiar tracks. If everyone brings their own reference CD's, you don't keep a consistent point of reference. You want to compare the amplifiers with the same one or two tracks. That might work "ok" with testing on an individual basis, but not so much as a group.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

It might be possible to have it where it's not just a/b but to be able to switch through them all, like a speaker wall listening session. To really make this work you would need to have a way to make each amplifier not identifiable by the switching knob controlled by the user and don't tell them how many amps there are, use a non-repeating number generator to have the listener and the behind the scenes guy write down as reference for that amplifier when it's playing.

This would be very pain staking, I don't think it's feasible.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

schmiddr2 said:


> It might be possible to have it where it's not just a/b but to be able to switch through them all, like a speaker wall listening session. To really make this work you would need to have a way to make each amplifier not identifiable by the switching knob controlled by the user and don't tell them how many amps there are, use a non-repeating number generator to have the listener and the behind the scenes guy write down as reference for that amplifier when it's playing.
> 
> This would be very pain staking, I don't think it's feasible.



Problem with that is that we can't simply remember what each amplifier sounds like and make valid comparisons when comparing 10 amps at the same time. You really have to isolate two sources at a time and compare them that way.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

This can be kept simple and not take a lot of time. Start off with the following. 
If the whole idea is to see if one can blindly hear the differences between two amplifiers and be able to make a statement as to which one has better SQ
1. The top tier amp against the low tier amp. 
2. Evaluator takes a seat in the sweet spot plays his reference tracks while switching back and forth between amplifiers. 
3. Evaluator if possible gives indication to person behind curtain which amp is preferred. 
4. If evaluator is not able to distinguish the difference then they assume the role of spectator to the event. 
5. Repeat steps 1-4 with next participant. 

No need to reinvent the wheel ABX info from AES and other sources are readily available.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Carlton8000 said:


> This can be kept simple and not take a lot of time. Start off with the following.
> If the whole idea is to see if one can blindly hear the differences between two amplifiers and be able to make a statement as to which one has better SQ
> 1. The top tier amp against the low tier amp.
> 2. Evaluator takes a seat in the sweet spot plays his reference tracks while switching back and forth between amplifiers.
> ...



Read on AX testing and you'll discover why I used it instead of the ABX testing method. It should be *easier* for the user to identify differences.

You can't do individual testing because it simply takes too long. It's not feasible. You place speakers wide and have the testers in a couple rows down the center. The testers are given sheets to make their notation so there's no issue with something being recorded incorrectly, or interpreted wrong by someone behind a curtain.

You also need enough data for it to be statistically significant. One tester listening for a short duration is not enough data. You want your testers to repeat the process quite a few times to provide a more significant result. You also remove doubt about "Well I didn't hear differences on these two, but I bet I would have between amplifiers X and Y."

You do multiple samples with multiple amplifiers in an AX format and you'll get good data. The testers will get more out of it, and get to sample more amplifiers. Everyone wins.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

Stereo Mojo performed a test of Class D amplifiers using the bracketing method. 

SHOOTOUT2007

One would think it would not be hard to determine which amplifier sounds best to a individual A or B. No extensive note taking it either I like this one or that one or I can't tell.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Carlton8000 said:


> Every reviewer should have his or her own personal reference CD. One day is not enough time to become acquainted enough to a new tune.


I don't think it'll matter as long as your playing the same recording right after another. If there's a difference, you will hear the difference


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> You also need enough data for it to be statistically significant. One tester listening for a short duration is not enough data.


This is really important if we really want to put the subject to rest. Without a significant sample size, results are prone to being skewed due to random chance. Also, you can't just look at the results and make a determination. You need to have a null hypothesis and you need to do proper statistical analysis on the results to make sure the results cannot be attributed to chance alone. Without this attention, your results will not stand against any academic critique. 

I've done cohort studies, with tons of statistical analysis, but it's been so long ago it would take some time for me to figure out how to design a valid experiment and analysis. It would be nice if there was a good statistician on this forum that would be willing to donate some time and ideas.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bump for more amp donations. Need some high end amps to actually do this


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Once you've layed out for us how you plan to do the tests, I've got a couple amps that could be on the list for you, including some Mosconi AS and Diamond D7 series.



-Steve


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## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

Subbed.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> Once you've layed out for us how you plan to do the tests, I've got a couple amps that could be on the list for you, including some Mosconi AS and Diamond D7 series.
> 
> 
> 
> -Steve


I'll post everything when I get to a computer


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bumping this because i have the time and money to do this now. so, for starters heres the plan.

5 categories of amps.

1) piece of **** amps, like pyle, boss, etc. i can get these no problem. 2) budget amps. stuff like ppi phantoms that everyone likes. 3) mid grade amps. stuff like alpine pdx, jl hd, zapco dc, etc. i have zapco amps i can use for this. 4) higher end stuff like mosconi, sonfoni, tru tech. etc. 5) the unicorns. Brax, phass, etc.. oh, and there also must be a Linear Power amp in teh mix to satisfy, or completely crush (whatever the outcome may be) the LP nut huggers.

if anyone would let me borrow anything for this, especially the higher end groups, that would be amazing. 

secondly i need a switcher. maybe this one vic posted earlier will work? just not sure how it would work since all the amps would need to be connected to the same source

Tec TC 616 6 Way Stereo Amplifier Speaker Comparator | eBay

any other ideas?

next, would need some good home speakers. i know brian (turbo_supra) offered to come down with his, but not sure if its to far of a drive for him for something like this.


i would also like to do rca's just for the hell of it. might as well while its all set up and should be quick


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Couple Sinfonis should be in the unicorn section.










Should also have a Son of Frank N Amp too.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LaserSVT said:


> Couple Sinfonis should be in the unicorn section.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so you wanna let me borrow it? lol


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you were closer or coming down south, you could borrow my HSS HT230...it's kind of on the high end of things- class A (23 amps at idle), all tube, no negative feedback. It has upgraded tubes- Winged C 6550s and Mullard CV4003s...and Sonicap capacitors in the signal path, one being a Platinum Teflon coupling bypass.

I would cost an ass load to ship it back and forth.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> If you were closer or coming down south, you could borrow my HSS HT230...it's kind of on the high end of things- class A (23 amps at idle), all tube, no negative feedback. It has upgraded tubes- Winged C 6550s and Mullard CV4003s...and Sonicap capacitors in the signal path, one being a Platinum Teflon coupling bypass.
> 
> I would cost an ass load to ship it back and forth.


if you wanted to ship it, i would pay for it. how much power is it per channel?


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Sorry, Nick, I don't believe you could conduct a non-biased ANYTHING...

I'll watch though...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> Sorry, Nick, I don't believe you could conduct a non-biased ANYTHING...
> 
> I'll watch though...


ill be filming the entire thing to show. i knew someone with something to lose will try to say its a flawed test, so ill be backing my ass. so wanna donate that 5000 watt $50,000 dollar amp you were talking about? oh wait, you made that up just to try to prove a point that amps sound different. yeah i think ill take your opinion with a massive grain of salt on this matter :laugh:

and fyi, im expecting amps to sound different since itll be in a controlled environment unlike a car. but, ill have to wait and see. and on top of that, you dont even know me. the only two things you know about me is that im not religious, and look for proof in things before i believe in them


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## Souldrop (Nov 2, 2014)

Have any interest in throwing a Zapco C2K 2.0x in the mix or focusing on currently available amps?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Souldrop said:


> Have any interest in throwing a Zapco C2K 2.0x in the mix or focusing on currently available amps?


doesnt matter if its available or not. as long as its around 100 watts per channel and at least 2 channels


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> ...5 categories of amps.
> 
> 1) piece of **** amps, like pyle, boss, etc. i can get these no problem. 2) budget amps. stuff like ppi phantoms that everyone likes. 3) mid grade amps. stuff like alpine pdx, jl hd, zapco dc, etc. i have zapco amps i can use for this. 4) higher end stuff like mosconi, sonfoni, tru tech. etc. 5) the unicorns. Brax, phass, etc.. oh, and there also must be a Linear Power amp in teh mix to satisfy, or completely crush (whatever the outcome may be) the LP nut huggers.
> 
> ...


1) why categories of amplifiers? Just to ensure you get a good representation of the field?

2) you want something called a distribution amplifier to feed the amplifiers with. This will keep all the inputs isolated from eachother. Something like this little unit from Henry Engineering would work well: Henry Engineering U s D A Audio Utility Summing Distribution Amplifier Da | eBay

3) that switch for the amplifier outputs would work

4) you'll need a massive power supply to run multiple amplifiers at the same time. consider a battery with a heavy-duty charger attached to it.

5) what will be your testing method? who will be the critics? will you also make objective measurements using a microphone? how will you determine listening level? how will you level match and ensure no amplifier is clipping? etc etc the details are what could kill your experiment. The more details, the better.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> 1) why categories of amplifiers? Just to ensure you get a good representation of the field?
> 
> 2) you want something called a distribution amplifier to feed the amplifiers with. This will keep all the inputs isolated from eachother. Something like this little unit from Henry Engineering would work well: Henry Engineering U s D A Audio Utility Summing Distribution Amplifier Da | eBay
> 
> ...


1) just to cover the whole playing field. 

2) thanks

4) i have tons of batteries at home (maybe 5 agm batteries and a ton of wetcell) and ill be purchasing a charger soon for my car anyway. looks like ill just spend the extra cash to get a powerful one for this test

5) this was all talked about earlier in the thread. testing method would be having a person not in the test covering everything that would make it possible to make it 100% blind for the blind test, which will be done with a switcher so you can switch instantly so you can hear right away if there is a difference or not. i can do objective with a microphone as well, but planned on doing it with a voltage divider into a soundcard. listening level most likely done by setting a level with pink noise and a mic. ill also have an oscope to test clipping.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

My suggestion would be to use a few amps as possible. 3 or 4 maximum.

1. garbage

2. mid level

3. High end

4. class a tube


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Not sure I could swing that. I may be able to get you something special though. Have to talk to someone about it but need to know what the parameters are, speakers to be used, testing environment, power source yada yada yada and how long you would need the amps for.
Im sure its in this thread somewhere but its old and things change. If my 450/4 hasnt sold it can be used for the project. I amy even know someone with a classic to compare. I dont think its ever been powered on so he may say no but feel free to drool:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> My suggestion would be to use a few amps as possible. 3 or 4 maximum.
> 
> 1. garbage
> 
> ...


no reason not to use more than that though. especially if you want a variety. only drawback is time


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Interested to see the outcome of this...

I have a spare Zapco DC352 amp in my basement... but it appears you already have this one covered.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jimmydee said:


> Interested to see the outcome of this...
> 
> I have a spare Zapco DC amp in my basement... but it appears you already have this one covered.


i have it covered x8 lol


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Do you want an unused, factory refurbished Boston GT-2125 to test as a mid grade amp?? I can ship it to you at my expense if you can ship it back at yours. Just let me know.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

seafish said:


> Do you want an unused, factory refurbished Boston GT-2125 to test as a mid grade amp?? I can ship it to you at my expense if you can ship it back at yours. Just let me know.


that may work. ill put you down on the list and contact you when im ready


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

sounds good.


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

Interested in a Zuki custom 2 channel?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RandyJ75 said:


> Interested in a Zuki custom 2 channel?


whats the output per channel?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Class A tube...

That would be my HSS and one of Victor's amps. Those are the only class A tubes that I know about. My HSS might be more powerful than Victor's since it has paralleled tubes- 30 wpc vs about half that. And depending on what tubes are in Victor's amp, it could be a touch more or a touch less than that.

IMO you really need super efficient speakers to really listen to the amps. 100 dB would be a good start, and 105-110 would be better. The less the amp has to work to drive the speakers, the more you will be able to hear the amps.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Class A tube...
> 
> That would be my HSS and one of Victor's amps. Those are the only class A tubes that I know about. My HSS might be more powerful than Victor's since it has paralleled tubes- 30 wpc vs about half that. And depending on what tubes are in Victor's amp, it could be a touch more or a touch less than that.
> 
> IMO you really need super efficient speakers to really listen to the amps. 100 dB would be a good start, and 105-110 would be better. The less the amp has to work to drive the speakers, the more you will be able to hear the amps.


Yeah I know. Figuring that part out is going to be hard since I don't have good home speakers

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> whats the output per channel?


300x2, but not bridgeable.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RandyJ75 said:


> 300x2, but not bridgeable.


little to much. lookong for the very common 100-150 x2


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

may have access to a Arc SE, butler tube amp, and OG phoenix gold amp. anyone else willing to lend something? preferably something on the higher end side since i can get the average ones quite easily. they will be well taken care of and i can put down some sort of deposit if necessary


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

All I have spare now is a SS REF2.640. If you're really interested I could probably pull one of my GZ amps out of the truck.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i also may have a tru tech billet, and tru tech hammer in the mix as well.

Gil, either or would be awesome. thanks

i guess i can set a date, take offers until then, and when that time comes, take the 10-15 that stick out the most


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Well I do have a Mosconi Zero 3 just sitting on my bed in my spare room. I did nearly kill my cat for stepping on it though and I don't allow anyone to touch it. LOL


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

lemme touch it..


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Cost ya a dollar.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Class A tube...
> 
> That would be my HSS and one of Victor's amps. Those are the only class A tubes that I know about. My HSS might be more powerful than Victor's since it has paralleled tubes- 30 wpc vs about half that. And depending on what tubes are in Victor's amp, it could be a touch more or a touch less than that.
> 
> IMO you really need super efficient speakers to really listen to the amps. 100 dB would be a good start, and 105-110 would be better. The less the amp has to work to drive the speakers, the more you will be able to hear the amps.



99-100db/w would be enough on 30Watt amp to blow his socks off.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> 99-100db/w would be enough on 30Watt amp to blow his socks off.


so send one over


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> ill be filming the entire thing to show. i knew someone with something to lose will try to say its a flawed test, so ill be backing my ass. so wanna donate that 5000 watt $50,000 dollar amp you were talking about? oh wait, you made that up just to try to prove a point that amps sound different. yeah i think ill take your opinion with a massive grain of salt on this matter :laugh:
> 
> and fyi, im expecting amps to sound different since itll be in a controlled environment unlike a car. but, ill have to wait and see. and on top of that, you dont even know me. the only two things you know about me is that im not religious, and look for proof in things before i believe in them


What you fail to realize, Nick, is that I don't really care about what you have to say anymore... I'll watch the condensed update later on and I'm fine with that.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> What you fail to realize, Nick, is that I don't really care about what you have to say anymore... I'll watch the condensed update later on and I'm fine with that.


ok chet 

so when it turns out that all amps do sound 100% different, are you going to change your opinion just to go against what i say? :laugh:


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> so send one over


I might, you`ll hate me when you will be selling all your fav amps after that. 
but you missed a point- use high sensitivity speakers to easily distinguish one amp from another. Everything created after single ended class A was to save energy not to improve sound. And compensate for low sensitivity drivers. 
Main reason I decided against running tubes in parallel, topology HSS use.
HSS is best looking tuber to date, I have to admit that.
Single ended solid state is not that far away from tuber in terms of sound reproduction. listen to one if you can find it. 
I`m making one as we speak but i don`t think it will be ready any time soon i`m up to my neck in tubers now.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> I might, you`ll hate me when you will be selling all your fav amps after that.
> but you missed a point- use high sensitivity speakers to easily distinguish one amp from another. Everything created after single ended class A was to save energy not to improve sound. And compensate for low sensitivity drivers.
> Main reason I decided against running tubes in parallel, topology HSS use.
> HSS is best looking tuber to date, I have to admit that.
> ...


hey, i got my amps for cheap as hell anyway, and are all still in perfect condition. if i gotta sell em, i gotta sell em lol. to be honest, i dont think ive ever heard a tube amp in a car before. and any recommendations on home speakers? maybe i can convince my father to go halves with me and then just put them in the living room for the TV since he wants speakers anyway. although he did get a MONO sonos center channel.. *facepalm* lol


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Speakers recommendation depends on room available.
how big is it?


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> ok chet
> 
> so when it turns out that all amps do sound 100% different, are you going to change your opinion just to go against what i say? :laugh:


No, Nick... I think you forgot my stance here... All amps do indeed sound different.

My opinion never changes, not even for you...

Have fun with this though... If you can...

In order to hear the difference, you need good loudspeakers...

You've either not yet discovered this, or have not yet been able to afford a way to hear the difference for yourself...

Either way, since you seemingly have no budget, and not such a great ear, but a vast ego... Why exactly should I place any weight in what you think?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Speakers recommendation depends on room available.
> how big is it?


my basement where the test will be done is a fairly decent size. at least 25' x 15'. living room is hard to explain as that floor is one open area.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> No, Nick... I think you forgot my stance here... All amps do indeed sound different.
> 
> My opinion never changes, not even for you...
> 
> Have fun with this though... If you can...


i know how to have fun. seems like your always walking around with a stick up your ass though. now can you please leave my thread if you dont want to contribute? thanks


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> i know how to have fun. seems like your always walking around with a stick up your ass though. now can you please leave my thread if you dont want to contribute? thanks


Well, suddenly I have a stick up my ass because I disagree with you... LMAO!

I'll stick around if for no other reason than My love of watching you make an ass of yourself... Nick


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> Well, suddenly I have a stick up my ass because I disagree with you... LMAO!
> 
> I'll stick around if for no other reason than I love watching you make an ass of yourself... Nick


so, are you going to lend that 5k $50,000 dollar amp or what?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> You've either not yet discovered this, or have not yet been able to afford a way to hear the difference for yourself...
> 
> Either way, since you seemingly have no budget, and not such a great ear, but a vast ego... Why exactly should I place any weight in what you think?


and heres how i know your full of ****. thinking that you need to spend money to get great sound. why are you even on this site? this site was founded on doing your own installs, and beating the man by finding great products that arent widely known and cheap. you do neither.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> Well, suddenly I have a stick up my ass because I disagree with you... LMAO!
> 
> I'll stick around if for no other reason than My love of watching you make an ass of yourself... Nick


and no, its not suddenly. ive yet to see one post by you that doesnt make you seem like a dickhead


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

I agree with you Nick, this site was started to help people do it themselves and find great products at great prices. And there are many. Almost everything Dayton makes is kick ass and cheap as hell. Group buys on tweeters and such are great too. Thing is SOME high dollar equipment is just superior.

Like you dont have cheap amps you just got a great deal!

I could have run a lessor deck (and did) and was content until I found the smoking deal on my P99 and its so much better its nuts. Same thing with my amps. I had MB Quarts, found some great cheap used JLs and the sound improved drastically! I would never in a million years expected to affor my new Mosconis but they were a spectacular deal from great guys and I have a customer thats loved the work I do on his hot rod so much he fronted me the money to snatch the second amp.

We are still helping people find the best deals on equipment and helping them set them up. But higher end (ie high dollar) amps just perform better. Dont care if its called "sound of an amp" or just plain distortion. 500 watts of JL sounds better than 1000 watts of Quart. 60 watts of Sinfoni sounds better than 100 watts of Audison. It just is what it is.

Hooking it all up to a scope and a computer will just verify specs. Your ear will tell you what sounds better. When I went from Carver TFM45s to Carver Silver Sevens the sound on my Betas made them sound like a different speaker. And this is Richard Clark ****!


Look, we bros. I like you and got your back but no matter what I will always believe better made (more expensive) amps at the same power will just sound better. I have done way too many installs and heard it first hand too many times. Tsunami electronics was the number one installer for like 10 years in Maui and I worked there over half that time. We did Clarion, Nakamichi, Zapco, Rockford, Soundstream, Sony, Crunch, Kenwood, JL, Focal, OZ etc etc and the JLs and Rockfords would always sound way better than the Kenwood or Crunch amp I just yanked. 100% of the time.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i guess ill find out. now back to our regular scheduled programming.. anyone have a brax amp (or something of that quality, sinfoni maybe) they want to donate? i think i have all the other amps lined up besides one or two, like a mosconi. or zapco z series. once i get all the amps together and everyone ready to get them to me, ill buy everything else i need


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> and no, its not suddenly. ive yet to see one post by you that doesnt make you seem like a dickhead


You are obviously disappointed in your achievements, Nick...

Why do you try to turn that against me?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> You are obviously disappointed in your achievements, Nick...
> 
> Why do you try to turn that against me?


huh?


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> i guess ill find out. now back to our regular scheduled programming.. anyone have a brax amp (or something of that quality, sinfoni maybe) they want to donate? i think i have all the other amps lined up besides one or two, like a mosconi. or zapco z series. once i get all the amps together and everyone ready to get them to me, ill buy everything else i need


So, once you have all this gear assembled in one place, with whose ears do you plan to evaluate this "blind subjective test"?

With all due respect, I don't think a single listener (not even you) would convince anyone here one way or another...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> So, once you have all this gear assembled in one place, with whose ears do you plan to evaluate this "blind subjective test"?
> 
> With all due respect, I don't think a single listener (not even you) would convince anyone here one way or another...


idk if you read the whole thread, but via the thread, and in PM i had about 15 different people who wanted to come. minus some local people

so why are you in here? 


someone tell me like it is. am i being a dick? or is this just just a ****ing tool?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

You're being trolled. Apparently he doesent like you and is using that as an excuse to **** on yer thread......it's kinda getting old.


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

....


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

claydo said:


> You're being trolled. Apparently he doesent like you and is using that as an excuse to **** on yer thread......it's kinda getting old.


The guys a tool. Why not just go away? It seems you have nothing constructive to add to this thread.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

I'm here.... So be it...

Of the many adjectives I might use to describe you, "subjective" and "fair" do not come to mind...

Can't wait to read your evaluation!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

You guys should see the thread that we met in if you think this is bad..

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> You're being trolled. Apparently he doesent like you and is using that as an excuse to **** on yer thread......it's kinda getting old.


Yeah I know. Oh well

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> my basement where the test will be done is a fairly decent size. at least 25' x 15'. living room is hard to explain as that floor is one open area.


 you might look at few of Klipsch models, used can be had cheap and they very sensitive. I have 30years old heresy in my basement and like them for amp testing. current heresyIII is best of all generation or so I`ve heard. pair run about 2000 bucks or slightly less new.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> you might look at few of Klipsch models, used can be had cheap and they very sensitive. I have 30years old heresy in my basement and like them for amp testing. current heresyIII is best of all generation or so I`ve heard. pair run about 2000 bucks or slightly less new.


last night i read that as 200 bucks and got excited. now im actually awake and read 2000 and now im sad :/ lol


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> last night i read that as 200 bucks and got excited. now im actually awake and read 2000 and now im sad :/ lol


Almost never you can get something for nothing, sad but true.
look at used I bought heresyII for 450 I think. It`s basically the same speakers but with metal diaphragms instead of phenol in horn loaded drivers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Almost never you can get something for nothing, sad but true.
> look at used I bought heresyII for 450 I think. It`s basically the same speakers but with metal diaphragms instead of phenol in horn loaded drivers.


yeah i know. hopefully someone semi-local can help out and lend some home audio stuff


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Looking forward to your results. I hope you get a good turn out to put ears on these am[s. I think the last Blind Amp test had a lot of no shows on test day. It still had some good insight but it would have been nice if they had 8 -10 people listening.

I know you have some low cost amps already, I could loan a SS Ref 920.4 and a NVX 800.4 if you want. Both 150 watts per channel.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Just rent a truck and come pick up my Edgarhorn Slimline horns and the HSS. The Edgarhorns came from Dr. Edgar on a pallet weighing about 240 pounds. You would NEED subs as they don't play below 100 that much.

But finding a nut job with some high efficiency speakers can be hard to do...especially one that is willing to let you borrow them.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> Looking forward to your results. I hope you get a good turn out to put ears on these am[s. I think the last Blind Amp test had a lot of no shows on test day. It still had some good insight but it would have been nice if they had 8 -10 people listening.
> 
> I know you have some low cost amps already, I could loan a SS Ref 920.4 and a NVX 800.4 if you want. Both 150 watts per channel.


yeah ill start getting people together when i get all the confirmations of what amps i can borrow from people. 

so far i have a list from this thread and from friends (although some offers from this thread may be expired since they were offered a while back. ill start sending PM's)

westco- rca's, amps?

DBlevel- Zuki Eleets 4 channel
Planet Audio hvt754
Arc Audio SE 4200
Lanzar Opti 4100 black/gold
US Acoustics usa4080, Brax x2000?

Hillbilly SQ- various amps

Victor- power supply? switcher?

gckless: Zed levathian

Theslaking- eclipse amps?

subwoofery- prestigio?

seafish- factory refurbished Boston GT-2125

ed- jl hd, few other amps

colin varga- tru tech billet and hammer. various other amps?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Just rent a truck and come pick up my Edgarhorn Slimline horns and the HSS. The Edgarhorns came from Dr. Edgar on a pallet weighing about 240 pounds. You would NEED subs as they don't play below 100 that much.
> 
> But finding a nut job with some high efficiency speakers can be hard to do...especially one that is willing to let you borrow them.


I`d use this offer.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Just rent a truck and come pick up my Edgarhorn Slimline horns and the HSS. The Edgarhorns came from Dr. Edgar on a pallet weighing about 240 pounds. You would NEED subs as they don't play below 100 that much.
> 
> But finding a nut job with some high efficiency speakers can be hard to do...especially one that is willing to let you borrow them.


those things are HUGE lol. no so sure the drive there and back would be that great though. hmmm.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> those things are HUGE lol. no so sure the drive there and back would be that great though. hmmm.


 You scared you`d like them too much? Come on dude it`s opportunity of lifetime.


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Wonder if I can fit them on the dash?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You scared you`d like them too much? Come on dude it`s opportunity of lifetime.


yeah i know but 12 hour drive there. i bet freight shipping would be cheaper than what i would pay in gas. but i doubt that would happen. hmm..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LaserSVT said:


> Wonder if I can fit them on the dash?


maybe not on, but might be possible to attach them to the under dash like most hldc's :laugh:


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

When I bought my Infinitys they cost me $3500 to send to Maui and another $1000 to get into the house. I think it was nearly a ton with the crates. LOL











(not my pic)


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

LaserSVT said:


> Wonder if I can fit them on the dash?


Easy... 

Just flip them on the side  Make sure the tweeter is positioned towards the doors or else it won't fit  

:laugh:

Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Easy...
> 
> Just flip them on the side  Make sure the tweeter is positioned towards the doors or else it won't fit
> 
> ...


hey kelvin you get my PM?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You guys need to see the size of the compression driver attached to the Edgar Titans...JBL 2440, or even better the 2441. Somehow I don't think they are fitting in any car.

My horns are the smaller Slimline horns...mine are only 100 dB as opposed to the 108-110 dB of the Titans. 

On a serious note, you could probably rent a pair of Danley Sound Labs Synergy horns.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> You guys need to see the size of the compression driver attached to the Edgar Titans...JBL 2440, or even better the 2441. Somehow I don't think they are fitting in any car.
> 
> My horns are the smaller Slimline horns...mine are only 100 dB as opposed to the 108-110 dB of the Titans.
> 
> On a serious note, you could probably rent a pair of Danley Sound Labs Synergy horns.


any idea on how i can go about doing this?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bump. still looking for someone to lend me something like a mosconi, sinfoni, or zapco z series


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

I do tha e those but I have the butler tube driver that should be ready for this test. I upgraded all processing caps to audio caps and the tubes were removed, sockets installed, and upgraded tubes were installed. Now I just have to get it working. Lol

It's only 75x2 but I'd be curious to see what the "tube effect" does to your test equipment.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> bump. still looking for someone to lend me something like a mosconi, sinfoni, or zapco z series


What Mosconi? I might have one kicking around.....


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

vwdave said:


> I do tha e those but I have the butler tube driver that should be ready for this test. I upgraded all processing caps to audio caps and the tubes were removed, sockets installed, and upgraded tubes were installed. Now I just have to get it working. Lol
> 
> It's only 75x2 but I'd be curious to see what the "tube effect" does to your test equipment.


Sounds familiar


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

vwdave said:


> I do tha e those but I have the butler tube driver that should be ready for this test. I upgraded all processing caps to audio caps and the tubes were removed, sockets installed, and upgraded tubes were installed. Now I just have to get it working. Lol
> 
> It's only 75x2 but I'd be curious to see what the "tube effect" does to your test equipment.


If memory serves when that amp was tested over a decade ago that the "tube effect" was a minor bass boost. Always just stuck in my head. Wish i still had all those car audio magazines.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

LaserSVT said:


> If memory serves when that amp was tested over a decade ago that the "tube effect" was a minor bass boost. Always just stuck in my head. Wish i still had all those car audio magazines.


Considering circultry Butler put in those amps wouldn`t surprise me one bit.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> Considering circultry Butler put in those amps wouldn`t surprise me one bit.


haha...

quick shot at Butler, notwithstanding...

I'd allow that Tube Driver design was ground breaking at the time, you know most people didn't even hear about Milbert until Zausmer's BMW caught the fancy of a magazine spread, and for what it is, the amps develop a lot of power and look pretty darn cool.

like, if you stood them up and placed them in a center rear seat location, you could call it the flux capacitor...

of course, years before the easy button of colored LED strips and microprocessor controllers.


that's how I remember them, sort of the tube launch of car audio, and easily one of the top ten interesting car products of that decade in the amplifier category.


I'd also say that when Xtant came out, with that copper screen square hole, stainless shroud that they were ground breaking in the aesthetics.

pretty much, I'd incorporate a stainless exterior for your class A monoblocks, Victor.

and I'd have to use solid copper in the build, not because it's not needed, but exactly because it's extraneous, and excessive. 

just like the use of class A in a vehicle, the tube itself screams "not necessary!" but in spite of all the efficiency-minded, politically correct options the statement of design extending into the hardware, is analogous, it's congruence in an installation that husks the shell of mediocrity for...


for....

excellence.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> I do tha e those but I have the butler tube driver that should be ready for this test. I upgraded all processing caps to audio caps and the tubes were removed, sockets installed, and upgraded tubes were installed. Now I just have to get it working. Lol
> 
> It's only 75x2 but I'd be curious to see what the "tube effect" does to your test equipment.


This could work. Get it working 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

danno14 said:


> What Mosconi? I might have one kicking around.....


Doesn't really matter. As long as it's a 2 channel with around 100 watts per channel

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cajunner said:


> haha...
> 
> quick shot at Butler, notwithstanding...
> 
> ...


 I started to think you haven`t heard one. To be honest i haven`t heard first versions, perhaps they sounded like stage tube driver Butler famous for- maybe not, no idea. I referred to latest design of 475 575 .
I don`t like them but prefer to keep details to myself. Perhaps Nick will get one for his comparison test and will publish his results. I can send one of my preamps to him for that reason.

It`s not about necessity, aftermarket stereo is not a necessity at all, factory system is satisfactory to 99% users out there, it`s about excellence.
Excellence in sound first and aesthetics later. That`s what diy is all about.
Now imagine cases made like drf24 is making and production cost associated with it. main goal in this endeavor was to demonstrate that excellent tube sound possible without spending price comparable with the price of the car itself.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ok, pretty much went out of my own pocket to get the "unicorn" of the bunch. a brax x2000. thanks again vic. would like one more amp to bridge the gap between the zapco dc's and the brax. preferably a mosconi. once i can get that, this test will be good to go


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oh i also forgot, i really really want a linear power amp. the linear power guys on facebook insist that they are much better than anything on the market and i want to see what the hype is about


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Doesn't really matter. As long as it's a 2 channel with around 100 watts per channel
> 
> Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


Sounds like either the as100.2 or Aclass. I can assist with the Aclass.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

danno14 said:


> Sounds like either the as100.2 or Aclass. I can assist with the Aclass.


that would be awesome! PM incoming


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

How much longer are we from the showdown?!!! I'm looking forward to this. Just try to raise the blind test pool. For the blind test pool you would have to select music or parts of instrumentations that are NOT familiar. 

You know how many folks will select one sounding better over another because they know the song or remember a hook or some part of a song?! A lot!  Just my 5 cents on top of many you are already getting.


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

SzikeR what was the general results of captainobvious test? Amps level matched sound the same? Ive not followed this thread for awhile are you trying to do the test but with less of a time gap between swaps or something else?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ImK'ed said:


> SzikeR what was the general results of captainobvious test? Amps level matched sound the same? Ive not followed this thread for awhile are you trying to do the test but with less of a time gap between swaps or something else?


His test was a bit different. But if I remember correctly the results were a didn't match up. But then again, it wasn't instant switch

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

Ok good stuff, so your going to switch instantly?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ImK'ed said:


> Ok good stuff, so your going to switch instantly?


yes, i still need to purchase a switcher. if anyone knows of any that can do at least 4 amps at a time, please post it in here. thanks


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so far, the amps that i have/people are willing to lend are

. pyle, boss, or any other low end amp will be purchased by me (gotta throw in a garbage amp for the hell of it)
. Kicker KXM supplied by me
. Various low to mid grade amps that i can get from work
. Zapco DC supplied by me
. Brax x2000 supplied by me/vic
. Tru Tech Billet and Hammer amps (thanks to Colin)
. JL HD (possibly) supplied by Ed 
. Phoenix Gold Ti (older model) possibly supplied by a local friend
. RE Audio 4 channel amp supplied by a local friend
. Soundstream reference supplied by gil.
. possibly a mosconi a class supplied by danno. 
. possibly a ppi phantom, JBL MS-A1004, and/or NVX JAD 800.4 supplied by 1fishman
.possibly a butler supplied by vwdave


this is what i can remember off the top of my head. if anyone has anything else that could make the playing field a bit more versatile, that would be awesome. Thanks guys. lets get this rolling


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

you guys think i could just use a speaker selector like this and wire it backwards. amp outputs going to the speaker outputs on the selector and the amp inputs on the selector going out to the speakers?

Niles SS-6 6-pair speaker selector at Crutchfield.com


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the more i think about it, probably not since they can be used to select multiple at a time and can cause issues with using 2 amps at once.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> the more i think about it, probably not since they can be used to select multiple at a time and can cause issues with using 2 amps at once.


THey have load resistors to compensate for dropping resistance, at least my adcom does. you can actually use it backwards and connect multiple amps to speaker outs and speakers to inputs. just don`t select two amps pumping outs at the same time to one set of speakers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> THey have load resistors to compensate for dropping resistance, at least my adcom does. you can actually use it backwards and connect multiple amps to speaker outs and speakers to inputs. just don`t select two amps pumping outs at the same time to one set of speakers.


yeah but theres always accidents and also it wont be as instant as id like


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> His test was a bit different. But if I remember correctly the results were a didn't match up. But then again, it wasn't instant switch
> 
> Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk





ImK'ed said:


> Ok good stuff, so your going to switch instantly?



How do you plan to conduct the tests? If you're going to have a group demo all at the same time like I did, then "instant switch" is going to be problematic. The testing group needs to know when they are hearing the next source amplifier to make a comparison between A and X. My testing only had about a second between the two sources so the testing group knew when they were switching from reference A and the unknown X.

Instant switching would be fine if each person were individually controlling the switching and demoing individually. But that makes for a LOT of demo time for each AX comparison, so you'd have to either severely limit the number of amplifiers (making the data less statistically significant) or the number of participants (again, same thing). OR, you have to do multiple sessions/days which then calls question to accuracy of the results because of environmental and physiological changes, etc. 

OR if you had a visual indicator to go along with the instant switch to show that "A" is playing or "X" is playing. This is part of the reason I constructed my test the way I did.








SkizeR said:


> you guys think i could just use a speaker selector like this and wire it backwards. amp outputs going to the speaker outputs on the selector and the amp inputs on the selector going out to the speakers?
> 
> Niles SS-6 6-pair speaker selector at Crutchfield.com



Yes, a mechanical speaker selector in reverse is what I used. That will work fine. Just don't select 2 sources at the same time. I clicked one off and then the other one on for the safety of the amplifiers being used.




Also- You'd be welcome to use my Martin Logan Aerius i electrostat floorstanders for your test if you'd like. These are the same ones we used in tetsing. I'll be in NY this weekend for the Syracuse show that you could pick them up at. The problem would just be in getting them back down to me in Pa when you're finished. Not that far of a drive from you though I think, all things considered.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i was actually considering buying those martin logans, and thank you for the offer. theres a set by me but i dont really have the money for it right now considering im buying all the other stuff right now, plus taking a hit trading my subs for the brax amp for this test. thanks again vic. as far as how exactly im going to do it, im not 100 percent sure yet. i will have to have everything here to see how long everything takes to do all the switching. i will most likely control the whole test and let the person know when it will be switched to another unknown amp. then at the end, have someone redo the tests for me so i can experience it. itll most likely just be all amps on one selector, and the tester can switch from amp to amp as they please. itll probably be a full day. probably sunday.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

mosconi a class has been offered thanks to danno! now i just need one more. Linear Power. someone here has got to have a spare one theyre willing to let me borrow


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Chet, your an experienced dude. Be constructive. Not so negative. Even if you dislike the guy, lots of others you can help here.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

XSIV SPL said:


> Sorry, with such a haphazard arrangement, I can't see how you'll produce much useful information from this...


When ever anyone arranges things it may seem haphazard at first. 
Its when you get your ducks in order and how you put all the pieces together in organization that makes the end results worthwhile. 

Since you sound a bit bored, yet have insight of how things can be better, perhaps you can lend a hand in helping some aspect of this? Maybe some advice from experience in areas you see needing improvement? 

As long as the testers are authentic and a good mix of different ears from novice to pro, with complete BLIND testing with clean methods, I think a lot of folks would be very interested to see the results. 

I would think a video showing footage samples of how things were done would be in order as well. So someone should be there documenting it. Anyone with a cellphone and video capabilities can do it.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I would think a video showing footage samples of how things were done would be in order as well. So someone should be there documenting it. Anyone with a cellphone and video capabilities can do it.


this would be too professional.

A Skizer joint, posted on youTube and played by all those retailers who like to push mid grade equipment.

For when the test panel comes up inconclusive on the Brax/Mosconi A class/Linear Power runs.

haha...

Skizer turns on the charm and gets noticed by Hollywood, moves to LA and plays opposite the Rock, in some farce about city installers that shred the slopes on their custom boards in the winter and plan messageboard equipment theft disguised as ABX comparisons...

car audio Fast and Furious, the Skizer representing the fast, and the equipment donors the Furious.

okay, it's late night...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DLO13 said:


> Ur doing it again. You've been doing it the last few pages, and I'm not sure why.


hes got nothing better to do. hes just mad that he had to use a figment of his imagination to start an argument with me a while ago and i guess he knows he lost? or maybe he is just trying to deter people away from helping the cause just because its me? idk. either way hes a ****ing loser with nothing better to do. not sure how hes even still here since i have yet to see one post of his actually give any advice. the only non negative posts he has are in the 12 volt events threads



DLO13 said:


> Chet, your an experienced dude. Be constructive. Not so negative. Even if you dislike the guy, lots of others you can help here.


if having someone build your car and competing with said someone elses build, sure i guess hes experienced



Phil Indeblanc said:


> When ever anyone arranges things it may seem haphazard at first.
> Its when you get your ducks in order and how you put all the pieces together in organization that makes the end results worthwhile.
> 
> Since you sound a bit bored, yet have insight of how things can be better, perhaps you can lend a hand in helping some aspect of this? Maybe some advice from experience in areas you see needing improvement?
> ...


getting advice from chet? HA! good one. the guy is just here to find out about events in his local area, and troll. but there are so far a good mix of people willing to come. some me,bers here, and some locals who dont relaly come on this forum. the whole thing actually will be filmed. im a filmer by trade. at least 2 cameras will be used. possibly three. one doing time lapse, and the other being used to get impressions, log everything, and document everyones results.



cajunner said:


> this would be too professional.
> 
> A Skizer joint, posted on youTube and played by all those retailers who like to push mid grade equipment.
> 
> ...


1) itll be on vimeo, what video "professionals" use lol
2) mid grade? well as stated there will be a very wide variety. i just bought a brax amp just to do this test. my wallet hates me right about now lol
3) i am pretty charming, but lock up when im in front of the camera. i guess i just feel unnatural being on the other side of the camera 
4) i have been thinking about trying to make my own snowboards. 
5) screw the rock. i prefer good old arnold.
6) no theft here. in case anyone thinks this, i live at 13 van buren in stony point NY. come get me. 

this is actually really funny though lmao


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

now, since i have all amps ready to be shipped besides a linear power, any floorstanding speaker suggestions? or anyone have any here that they would be willing to sell? or high efficiency monitors? just gotta get those, a mic, soundcard, the program to do the measured test, switcher, and an oscope. besides the speakers it should be under 500 or so


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> yeah but theres always accidents and also it wont be as instant as id like


that would be an instant, do you want me to explain it in details?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> that would be an instant, do you want me to explain it in details?


im trying to go for literally no gap. like press a button or flip a switch and theres no pause or gap or anything in the music. trying to take as many variables out as possible. unless that isnt possible i can settle for a second long or so gap. it may just be a hair harder to tell


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> im trying to go for literally no gap. like press a button or flip a switch and theres no pause or gap or anything in the music. trying to take as many variables out as possible. unless that isnt possible i can settle for a second long or so gap. it may just be a hair harder to tell


how fast you can push one button while unpush another?
I`d say 1/10 of a second.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> how fast you can push one button while unpush another?
> I`d say 1/10 of a second.


thats true lol. ok so i can get a 12 speaker switcher from work for a good price. is there any crazy circuitry in those or is it just switches?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> thats true lol. ok so i can get a 12 speaker switcher from work for a good price. is there any crazy circuitry in those or is it just switches?


I don`t know about one you talking about I have Adcom GFS-6 I have
that is passive switcher with only compensating resistors in it for load protection in case when more than 1 pair of speakers playing.




 So you connect speakers to amplifier input on switcher and up to 6 amps to speakers out. in that case you would be momentarily switching between any two amps to one pair of speakers, make sense now?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Wouldn't the Monitors/ speakers you select be best to be in the same Ohm as most car speakers? like 4Ohm, This way the amps can have to go to the same as they would in a car? There are some in 4 Ohm.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Wouldn't the Monitors/ speakers you select be best to be in the same Ohm as most car speakers? like 4Ohm, This way the amps can have to go to the same as they would in a car? There are some in 4 Ohm.


this is what i was planning.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Wouldn't the Monitors/ speakers you select be best to be in the same Ohm as most car speakers? like 4Ohm, This way the amps can have to go to the same as they would in a car? There are some in 4 Ohm.


 Since each amp will be matched by the scope as providing same power to given load 4 or 8 Ohm doesn`t really matters


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Since each amp will be matched by the scope as providing same power to given load 4 or 8 Ohm doesn`t really matters


true, although 4 ohm would be preferred though.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I actually think it does matter. 
When an amp is playing at different Ohms, and I'm not sure what volumes you plan to test them at, but at higher listening volumes I would think a difference is more easily revealed. I would think not having a 4ohm speaker setup can lower the strength of the test, regardless as it leave it open for debate.

This would be an easy out for any amp brand to negate the test findings. Even if they are not necessarily that important. The general understand is there being a difference. 

I'm just trying to make it easier for you after the test. Those that want you to fail, which I find odd that there are some here, will tell you it doesn't matter, only until you're done with the test. 

I personally have found a difference in real world circuitry of how a driver takes up juice differently with variation in Ohms. From my understanding, Impedance will change in frequency response. While most folks who have a deep understanding of electronics (not me) will tell you there doesn't have to be a difference, yet often in real world tests, there is a difference.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I actually think it does matter.
> When an amp is playing at different Ohms, and I'm not sure what volumes you plan to test them at, but at higher listening volumes I would think a difference is more easily revealed. I would think not having a 4ohm speaker setup can lower the strength of the test, regardless as it leave it open for debate.
> 
> This would be an easy out for any amp brand to negate the test findings. Even if they are not necessarily that important. The general understand is there being a difference.
> ...


actually i think it would be the opposite. but very marginally. you will still be able to play it plenty loud with an 8 ohm setup, but the thing is, theoretically damping factor and thd improve with higher impedances. either wya, if theres a difference, we will be able to tell. and yes, speakers change impedance with frequency, but the same speakers will be used for the whole test so thats irrelevant


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

> theoretically damping factor and thd improve with higher impedances.


Thats along what I know, and anyone running 2 ohm subs. Thats why I was think its important to run them at 4. I'm looking out for angles that would hurt results later, even though I have a limited understanding of the guts being used


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

everything will hopefully be 4 ohms. the subs ill be using (diyma r12) are 4 ohms


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

way also have a phoenix gold elite and arc audio xdi v2. come on people just need a linear power and this test will happen!!


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Why wiat for a Linear Power....does it have some unique characteristics?

Just start it!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Why wiat for a Linear Power....does it have some unique characteristics?
> 
> Just start it!


you are obviously not in any facebook car audio groups lol


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

post some links I'll check it out, although I avoid FB as much as possible. But you're right, I'm not


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> post some links I'll check it out, although I avoid FB as much as possible. But you're right, I'm not


arguably the most respectable one, but that doesnt say much since its facebook lol. i also think its the only sound quality based one. i help run it

https://www.facebook.com/groups/strictlysoundquality/


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I looked at the names and the first I selected was a guy with cam drinking. And then I thought, that must be him, and looked at the 300z, and sure nuf...hehehe. cool!

I was just in the NY city last week. Xa'in Noodles were great!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I looked at the names and the first I selected was a guy with cam drinking. And then I thought, that must be him, and looked at the 300z, and sure nuf...hehehe. cool!
> 
> I was just in the NY city last week. Xa'in Noodles were great!


LOL thats me. should have let me known. we could have kicked it. theres a few members in the area


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Kicking it in NY takes practice. Everybody is running off someplace. I needed a vacation from my vacation


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Kicking it in NY takes practice. Everybody is running off someplace. I needed a vacation from my vacation


yeah ny is a bit crazy at times. i live right outside the city thankfully


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Its like this little part of California we call Venice beach....

Except in NY ITS ACROSS THE 5 Burrows!!!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Its like this little part of California we call Venice beach....
> 
> Except in NY ITS ACROSS THE 5 Burrows!!!


ive been to venice beach. NY is nothing like venice beach lol. two opposite ends of the crazy spectrum :laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Anyone who has talked to me about lending amps, or people who will be willing, please PM me so we can arrange shipping. i have almost everything ready, and just need an LP amp which i might just buy.


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

Have a date yet, Nick? Please let me know.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RandyJ75 said:


> Have a date yet, Nick? Please let me know.


no date yet. when would work for you? any weekend works for me so im going to ask the locals and tri state area diyma members works for them and whatever date works out the best for everyone i guess i when itll be


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## RandyJ75 (Dec 4, 2006)

I am pretty flexible, as I don't work. 

You may be better off doing it after Labor Day, things calm down after that. Lots of people on vacation before then.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

RandyJ75 said:


> I am pretty flexible, as I don't work.
> 
> You may be better off doing it after Labor Day, things calm down after that. Lots of people on vacation before then.


Is that pathetic few days off people of this great country insist on calling vacation?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Nick, I suggest you get setup ready , video it and post for possible critique prior to test.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Nick, I suggest you get setup ready , video it and post for possible critique prior to test.


thats actually what i was going to do. having people send in amps now


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> thats actually what i was going to do. having people send in amps now


good plan. You`ll get packages from me soon.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so far i have a few people that said they will participate as testers. so far we have..

-RandyJ75
-Pitmaster
-Colin (doesnt post here much anymore)
-Possibly edzyy if hes back from atlanta in time 
-Possibly Quietfly
-Possibly a member on here who doesnt post much, Ossman (i cant remember his username at the time)
-My friend Mike Dioguardo who will also be making the voltage divider for the measured test
-Possibly my friend Mattei, the person who introduced me to car audio,
-Possibly my friend Elvis, who has a basic system in his car, but is into head-fi
-Possibly my cousin, who is the typical consumer.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

anyone recommend any specific sound cards for the measured test?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I would recommend you have folks with sound experience over 35 or even 40 maybe + years old. Too old and you are likely to have hearing loss, but still maybe valid for amp sound difference. These will be the folks that know what sound quality and reproduction of sound is all about. They will be the ones with most listening experience. 

Without a mature experienced ear you really have less than 50% of a quality test. I know this sounds harsh, but it is true. 

You need folks that have heard instruments live, live voices, recordings from ADD mastered CD's, from hi def home systems. Someone who understood what an old JBL speaker, or old KEF's, and B&W speakers, from old Klipsche, ADS, Infinity, RSL, AltecLansing, AResearch, recordings played with a horn, and maybe the resonance of a record player, or reel to reel recording thats analog. A ear that is used to ANALOG SOUND. 

The sound of hiss, and how that can sound from different sources. Tube amps, and modern amps. The sound of a singer taking her breath into the mic, or of parting lips before singing. These experiences will only strengthen someones sensitivity to sound change of digitals misses vs analogs constant connection....

And it can only add major value to your test.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I would recommend you have folks with sound experience over 35 or even 40 maybe + years old. Too old and you are likely to have hearing loss, but still maybe valid for amp sound difference. These will be the folks that know what sound quality and reproduction of sound is all about. They will be the ones with most listening experience.
> 
> Without a mature experienced ear you really have less than 50% of a quality test. I know this sounds harsh, but it is true.
> 
> ...


What makes you think none of these people are qualified?

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Everyone qualified but I 100% agree with Phil, valid points made there.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Everyone qualified but I 100% agree with Phil, valid points made there.


yeha i know its a good point. but is there anyone around me from here thats like that? me, mike, and ed are all young enough to not have any sort of hearing loss, and were are all SQ people who know what to listen for. i do like the idea of having my cousin there though. your typical car audio product consumer. itll really help round off this test, and show that if there is a difference and someone who doesnt know as well as us can hear it, than it possibly can be signifigant enough to matter. maybe ill force my little brother to help too and he has zero experience besides listening to his ipod lol


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I don't know about them, qualified or not. Just saying you need mature trained ears


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> yeha i know its a good point. but is there anyone around me from here thats like that? me, mike, and ed are all young enough to not have any sort of hearing loss, and were are all SQ people who know what to listen for.


If you say so, yet I believe that you already somewhat swayed that they sounds indistinguishable in the car anyway. 
If anything variety of experienced listeners will give your test more credibility.
hearing loss has very little to do with what Phil was talking about.

It` mostly experience and emotional stage of the listener.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> If you say so, yet I believe that you already somewhat swayed that they sounds indistinguishable in the car anyway.
> If anything variety of experienced listeners will give your test more credibility.
> hearing loss has very little to do with what Phil was talking about.
> 
> It` mostly experience and emotional stage of the listener.


gotcha. im not swayed, but thats my predictions. im not biased towards any side. but i do realize that there is much more important things in a car to worry about than the amp


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Based on the response Captains very similar test brought, the end result is the only people whose opinions may sway are you and the listeners.

The end result will end up like this:

A. You find that a blind ABX test shows that all amplifiers that are run inside their specific comfort zone are in fact indistinguishable. 

The response will be as follows: 
"Told you so!" " Totally agree!" Etc...

OR
"Who are you to know what good sound sounds like?" "The test was flawed from the onset." Etc...


B. You hear differences between the amps.


The response will be as follows: 

"Told you so!" " Totally agree!" Etc... 

OR

"The test was flawed from the onset." "Psychoacoustics, or you went in with a preconceived notion" Etc...


Honestly, if you went into this to find out for yourself, great! If you think that your test and the outcome will sway anyone's opinion because it's "you" doing it... (And the you can be anyone) Don't be surprised or hurt or mad when you get attacked on the interwebz because it doesn't support others opinions.


I did a test for myself with some amplifiers because I was an old school nut as well as thought boutique brands meant better SQ. It wasn't blind, it was not even set up to 1/4 db of difference between the ones I tested. And while there wasn't a mega dollar amp in the mix there were some good ones. Nothing I heard in the test in my system justified the extra dollars spent for the higher end amps. So I just went with power, form factor and aesthetics I liked wanted and needed. Been happy ever since. Honestly it was eye opening.

Anyway, good luck with the test.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I think if you have specific questions and a rating of those questions and you just upload that data no one will tell you the above BS. You did a test, and here is what people had to say. Everyone can make their own conclusions, and it maybe used as a tool or gauges for a long time to come. 

I think its worth doing, even if I think you have more than plenty amps to test already. I did what you did for how audio. I nearly maxed out my cc on $4K amp down to 800 amps, and the difference was that one was a touch warmer and had a nice tone, while the other was a bit more neutral or flat I could say. The rest fell in either camp. But to tell from digitized sound you will need a few well selected tracks that have analog well tested instruments, and nice voice, familiar would be good, and a few variaety.

I thin these are important....If your just testing for the sound characteristics.

Have them each fill out a form with maybe 10 questions, WITH a NON-Forced field of a "I can't tell" so they aren't screwing things up like a marketing company.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cubdenno said:


> Based on the response Captains very similar test brought, the end result is the only people whose opinions may sway are you and the listeners.
> 
> The end result will end up like this:
> 
> ...


oh yeah i know. im ready for some people to come down like a hawk *cough* xsiv spl *cough*

but thats why ill be filming everything. either way some people may say "bad ears" or psycho acoustics, but i trust the group of people who are coming so far. even if no one believes what the results are, thats fine, because i, and the others will have experienced it first hand


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Sure, film everything, post it on youtube and let others decide what sounds the best in youtube compression.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Sure, film everything, post it on youtube and let others decide what sounds the best in youtube compression.


LOL thats not what i was talking about haha i mean ill be filming the whole test, how everything is set up, how all the switching is done etc.. just so people see everything before making assumptions


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Not sure why he got that impression, I'm sure you werent referring to trtanslating any testing to Youtube audio.

But What would be helpful is a Craigslist ad, and maybe an ad here. TO come audition amplifiers for sound differences, and then raffle away 1 or 2 items. I think the larger group you can handle the better, or in smaller groups. If you can get 20+ in pool feedbacks, you have a chance for some valid data. 

I wish I could help by being there, but you DON'T need people you trust, in fact better they don't know you. Just their honest feedback in answering questions.

If you can do something where your friends can help in managing the people in the test, you will win. This test would be a great tool, and it will all be based on the questionnaire you make. Maybe get a round up from a new thread here..."What questions would you ask about an amplifier? what differences you look for, etc"...Just to see if you have covered your bases.

I've done a little of this work with market research, and it can be done rather scientifically. The more so the better, and with very valuable results. Maybe there are 2-3 major hurdles in this test. 1 was getting the gear, 2 the parameters of your test with questions and such, and 3rd the people. 

So far I think you did great with the first 2....don't let things go on the 3rd most important...your pool of data! This is what give all the things you did value.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I think he was joking lol. But yeah, I think a lot of the questions will be simple, and then an interview with the tester right after they did each part. Let's start posting some suggested questions 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

A Craigslist ad to come audition equipment in someone's home is a solid plan.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ehhh, no one around here is going to be looking for that. and its not really to audition. its going to be "hey, your going to be at my house for most likely 8 hours more or less, with a bunch of other people you have never met, and you will be subjected to torture via audio and mental challenges. pizza will be provided" lol


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Next month i will donate my MB Quart OA1100.5 and you can add that to the raffle..
It's being replaced with a PPI Black Ice 4-channel and a Monoblock..


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Ok, but just in case. I told you so lol.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

V 2the C said:


> Ok, but just in case. I told you so lol.


plus, craigslist is a bit sketchy around here


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I think he was being sarcastic. Ya, a number of people coming inside the house is not a great idea. But if you can get a public location that is not leasing the space yet, willing to expose/market the space to the public would be an option. 

I know it may add a layer of complexity, but anything to get more people in the data pool


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I think he was being sarcastic. Ya, a number of people coming inside the house is not a great idea. But if you can get a public location that is not leasing the space yet, willing to expose/market the space to the public would be an option.
> 
> I know it may add a layer of complexity, but anything to get more people in the data pool


i have the space. i can use the basement and garage. i feel like 7 people or more is enough.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

7, really? ouch...

Just for the sake of results try and get 20...maybe 15 min. Who cares what 7 people think. I know, they are people you know, and you care. I understand, but for data analysis, 7 is not significant. 

Its like saying 2 out of 3 dentists recommend something...They may as well recommend amalgam use for cavities too! ADA has been recommending it since 1859, so it has to be OK in your mouth...Right?...hahaha. 160+ years later, it is now being questioned again. The power of politics! Mercury is a known high toxin. It doesn't belong in your mouth regardless how you can contain it. There are plenty non toxic alternatives, and they still use it. Go Ffffff'n figure!


Anyway...back to the program....Get more people!!!! validate your efforts! Make it significant. Delay it if you have to, run it over the course of a month. It will help shut the trolls down to boot.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i just dont think there are twenty people within driving distance of my who give a **** lol


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

1. You'd be surprised
2. You will impress yourself, and force interaction from all walks that will give you feedback.

Create a give away inventive, post some flyers at recording studios bands practice at, stereo shop install stores, and coffee houses. 

Do it


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> 1. You'd be surprised
> 2. You will impress yourself, and force interaction from all walks that will give you feedback.
> 
> Create a give away inventive, post some flyers at recording studios bands practice at, stereo shop install stores, and coffee houses.
> ...


lol. ill take the you'd be surprised part with a grain of salt since your from socal. people from over here truly do not give a rats ass, especially the stereo shops. i will try though


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

7 still makes the anecdotal, which if anyone is going to argue about validity they probably shouldn't expect stringency in scientific methodologies...

just fire that switcher up, put asses in the seats and get on with it. 

I like the "test 'em all before looking at any results" method, so the same vacuous blanks will be drawn throughout as people come up with their descriptors for "better, or worse?"


haha..


and it's a good work, when you look at it from the other side. During and setting up before hand may make it seem to be bad work, or as our virtual Pappy might say, honest work...



The Virtual Pappies, good band name?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I like the "test 'em all before looking at any results" method, so the same vacuous blanks will be drawn throughout as people come up with their descriptors for "better, or worse?"


i was planning on having a few different types of tests. all of which i would film the reactions, and have live impressions like, "im about to switch it, tell me if you hear a difference" type of thing. but occasionally throw in a good ol switcheroo to see if they can actually see if they can actually hear it or not. that was one i was thinking of. take 3 amps, one ****, one medium (most likely class d), and one high end. and have them listen to them all blindly labeled as 1, 2, and 3. then see if they can pick out which one im playing. stuff like that. but get their reactions on film right then and there.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I'd also leave room for a "tell all" where you give them perception bias and see if they can fight their way out of a paper bag.

"this is the mid grade, retail between 200 and 400. Do you like that? Okay here comes the sweetness, this is pure sex, 1600 bucks at friend prices, is that better? REALLY. YOU DON'T SAY!"


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I'd also leave room for a "tell all" where you give them perception bias and see if they can fight their way out of a paper bag.
> 
> "this is the mid grade, retail between 200 and 400. Do you like that? Okay here comes the sweetness, this is pure sex, 1600 bucks at friend prices, is that better? REALLY. YOU DON'T SAY!"


dont worry. theres going to be all sorts of mind ****ery going on. im thinking i should design it to make people prove without a reasonable doubt that they can hear a difference


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Nick, if you can arrange this successfully, I'm interested in the results, but as projected so far the results will be solely subjective... And by unknown listeners with unknown credentials...

Have you considered attempting to measure amplifier output wave form integrity to the input wave form as a part of this evaluation? I realize this would require an array of equipment, and a couple of linked oscilloscopes, and I also realize this would be much more elaborate than you are planning. But...

Subjective tests can be colored by what a listener is accustomed to, and the listener's evaluation can be biased based upon their own listening experiences, so...

If this evaluation does not include the data which will put to rest the aforementioned concerns, the conclusions reached will not present much useful information.

This is merely my opinion.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

XSIV SPL said:


> Nick, if you can arrange this successfully, I'm interested in the results, but as projected so far the results will be solely subjective... And by unknown listeners with unknown credentials...
> 
> Have you considered attempting to measure amplifier output wave form integrity to the input wave form as a part of this evaluation? I realize this would require an array of equipment, and a couple of linked oscilloscopes, and I also realize this would be much more elaborate than you are planning. But...
> 
> ...


ayyy something somewhat constructive from you! im pretty proud right now. im guessing you havent read the whole thread? or even the first, or last few pages where i mention sound cards and voltage dividers to use to hook the amps up directly to my desktop. i planned this and mentioned it i think even in the first post. im confident that most amps will have a different wave form, or some sort of different distortions, BUT this test is mostly about if its audible or not, and if so how audible. should be interesting. you should lend a sinfoni amp


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oh, my local friend who has actually built his own amps is coming to help out. he is bringing his (pretty damn good) benchtop oscope


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Sorry Nick, I'm not planning to lend a Sinfoni to the cause... 

I'll watch though...


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Hey sorry for posting then bailing, didn't expect to see so many replies so quickly.

I'm still getting the kinks out of the butler. I hope to get it up for the test to either prove or debunk the myths.

So I have 2 other amps that I can send, but don't want to send a total of 3 amps...

Phoenix gold MS-2125 or a Phoenix gold ZPA0.5.
Thoughts? 

The MS series was their first ever series, and build quality seems second to none. The ZPA series always regarded as Phoenix golds best sounding amps before the elites came out, and some argue that they are still the best sounding.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Don't know if you are still considering more people but you could set up a Facebook group event for it? I agree that more than 7 would be nice to have.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> Hey sorry for posting then bailing, didn't expect to see so many replies so quickly.
> 
> I'm still getting the kinks out of the butler. I hope to get it up for the test to either prove or debunk the myths.
> 
> ...


thats not bailing lol. you mentioned it before. either way its awesome that you can still lend even one. whichever works for you, im ok with. Thanks again dave


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> Don't know if you are still considering more people but you could set up a Facebook group event for it? I agree that more than 7 would be nice to have.


i was thinking about setting up a group just to get everyone who is coming to get us all on the same page, but im not sure how that can attract more people.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

I think it's great you are doing this. I'm going to paying very close attention to this. My theory is that if the amps are putting out equal rated power there will be little difference in sound. My opinion is that amps sound the same. What you pay for is brand name, R&D, looks/design, class AB vs D, better QC, and better parts which plays into overall reliability, and features. Paying an extra $1000 for same power will NOT yield improved sound quality if all other variables in the install are equal. What a person does get is an improved piece of equipment in terms of features, reliability, and quite simply looks beautiful. :laugh: This is just OPINION though. I haven't compared a PPI with a Sinfoni. Sinfonis sure are prettier though. 

What is your predicted outcome of the test? Since you are the person getting this together I'm curious your thoughts on this.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> I think it's great you are doing this. I'm going to paying very close attention to this. My theory is that if the amps are putting out equal rated power there will be little difference in sound. My opinion is that amps sound the same. What you pay for is brand name, R&D, looks/design, class AB vs D, better QC, and better parts which plays into overall reliability, and features. Paying an extra $1000 for same power will NOT yield improved sound quality if all other variables in the install are equal. What a person does get is an improved piece of equipment in terms of features, reliability, and quite simply looks beautiful. :laugh: This is just OPINION though. I haven't compared a PPI with a Sinfoni. Sinfonis sure are prettier though.
> 
> What is your predicted outcome of the test? Since you are the person getting this together I'm curious your thoughts on this.


my predictions (and im going to make another thread for the test, and make a poll for peoples predictions..) is that they will sound different. BUT (big but), i dont think it will be enough to truly matter in a car. there is always going to be something else in a car thats limiting how good your stereo sounds more than an amp.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> i was thinking about setting up a group just to get everyone who is coming to get us all on the same page, but im not sure how that can attract more people.


I don't do Facebook but I imagine it to be a place where people are all milling about, pointing at each other's bellybuttons and asking silly things like "did you see the cat video where the ball goes in the..." and what better a group than those whiling away in the comfort of New Yourk city weather patterns?

down here you'd be forced to upgrade the A/C system in your test area and provide large coolers of Gatorade for the "competition" but up in the cool, north...

you guys can just pass out a napkin for some upper lip sweat and a communal box of Shower to Shower, fuggedaboutit...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I don't do Facebook but I imagine it to be a place where people are all milling about, pointing at each other's bellybuttons and asking silly things like "did you see the cat video where the ball goes in the..." and what better a group than those whiling away in the comfort of New Yourk city weather patterns?
> 
> down here you'd be forced to upgrade the A/C system in your test area and provide large coolers of Gatorade for the "competition" but up in the cool, north...
> 
> you guys can just pass out a napkin for some upper lip sweat and a communal box of Shower to Shower, fuggedaboutit...


its actually been hot and humid as the underside of my left nut lately. 

FHUGGEDABOUTIT! reminds me of one of my friends. one of the funniest short videos ive ever seen.. 


https://instagram.com/p/2e5L0ZtroF/?taken-by=icecoastkillsshit


https://instagram.com/p/3RCx6ttriG/?taken-by=icecoastkillsshit


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Arete said:


> Don't know if you are still considering more people but you could set up a Facebook group event for it? I agree that more than 7 would be nice to have.


If someone accepts an event invite on Facebook everyone of there friends will see it in there newsfeed. I'm not sure about a group. The thing about a group is that if it isn't designated a "closed group" people can see comments on there newsfeed. This could spark curiousity and people will join. This is how many groups grow to the size they do. Audiophiles tend to have audiophile friends and aquiantences... then again not everyone uses Facebook.

Edit. Also if they join the event or group they can invite other people. if your 7 friends invite one person each you already have 14 and if they invite 1 person on and on it goes.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> my predictions (and im going to make another thread for the test, and make a poll for peoples predictions..) is that they will sound different. BUT (big but), i dont think it will be enough to truly matter in a car. there is always going to be something else in a car thats limiting how good your stereo sounds more than an amp.


Did you get my PM I sent you a while back? You never replied.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> If someone accepts an event invite on Facebook everyone of there friends will see it in there newsfeed. I'm not sure about a group. The thing about a group is that if it isn't designated a "closed group" people can see comments on there newsfeed. This could spark curiousity and people will join. This is how many groups grow to the size they do. Audiophiles tend to have audiophile friends and aquiantences... then again not everyone uses Facebook.
> 
> Edit. Also if they join the event or group they can invite other people. if your 7 friends invite one person each you already have 14 and if they invite 1 person on and on it goes.


true, but 99% of the people in the sound quality audio group arent within 100 miles or so of me. so they will just join just to join (which is the problem with facebook groups).




Arete said:


> Did you get my PM I sent you a while back? You never replied.


i dont think so.. ive been getting over 25 PM's a day the past week so i may have seen it and forgot about it. let me go check.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the "markup" one? the products that you were curious about i dont have any info on any more :/


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

this could turn into an awesome avenue for mid-level marketing.

if one friend turns on another friend, you'll be able to get rid of a Connex box of Tupperware, or duty free cigs....


maybe order AliBaba some LED flashlights, a couple boxes worth, everyone needs a flashlight...


Comin' out of the dark, Skizer finally sees the light...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> this could turn into an awesome avenue for mid-level marketing.
> 
> if one friend turns on another friend, you'll be able to get rid of a Connex box of Tupperware, or duty free cigs....
> 
> ...


as usual, i have not a ****ing clue what your talking about :laugh::laugh:


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> as usual, i have not a ****ing clue what your talking about :laugh::laugh:


captive audience, think timeshares, Amway, Avon/Mary Kay, if not Tupperware...


subliminal messaging in the test, you could sell twice as many cokes to the unsuspecting listeners who make up the test audience.


gotta strike while the iron is hot!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> my predictions (and im going to make another thread for the test, and make a poll for peoples predictions..) is that they will sound different. BUT (big but), i dont think it will be enough to truly matter in a car. there is always going to be something else in a car thats limiting how good your stereo sounds more than an amp.


For sure. Great sound in a car is 70% tune, 20% Install/placement and 10% equipment. Within equipment, the bulk is speakers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> For sure. Great sound in a car is 70% tune, 20% Install/placement and 10% equipment. Within equipment, the bulk is speakers.


actually i dont think its as black and white as people make it out to be. each one can cause major downfalls even if the other two are solid. i personally think that if everything is 100% solid (equipment choice, tune, and install), it would be 60% tune. 25% install, and 15% equipment. and by equipment, about 90% or so of that is speakers. maybe around 9% source. the other 1% or less is the other pieces of equipment. but still, all of these percentages we label it as, change in each setup. what i listed above is what i think it would be if everything was PERFECT


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

you peeps are whack.

it's 90% equipment, since tuning requires adjustment and adjustment is hardware, and hardware is equipment...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ok, so forget the off topic stuff. what kind of "questions" should i be putting on the questionnaire for the test


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> ok, so forget the off topic stuff. what kind of "questions" should i be putting on the questionnaire for the test


for this, I'd poll the guys that made up captainobvious test group.

the general idea is to create dialogue that defines differences between very, very, similar things.

so, I would avoid the "better/worse" for a scale of 1-10, and in that 1-10 leave room for "other" so that penciling in a few words can be done.

one way of defining what 1 is, and scaling out to 10, is preferable, you don't want to change it up on questions.

like, 1 is stock grade equipment quality, and 10 is Mark Eldridge Nascar, or something like that.



or, 1 is low, 10 is high...


something that gives the testing a finer scale or resolution. 


It's all in how you make up the test, as to how it's perceived and eventually, it's usefulness in the community's war chest of amplifier sound threads.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey Nick, PM me your address. I have to send this GZ amp back early next week, I'll send you the SS REF2.640 as well.

For the questions, I also think a 1-10 should be used. I also think that comments MUST be written. I want to know why someone chose something. If they want to constantly reference the previous amp, then that would be fine I think. 

Not sure about actual questions just yet. Though I would like to see a "strength" or something similar criteria asking specifically about damping factor. Can people tell a difference in damping factor? I think it might be completely irrelevant since the amplifiers are changing, but worth noting in the test.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

good point, on damping factor.

have a test group of 8 subs tied together creating massive back EMF and see which amp can keep the cones from going flappy at sub 30 hz tones...

and have some test discs with special distortion, truth finders.


that would help a lot, I think. Forget about "on music signals" and get into the research chemicals of the clandestine audio laboratory, make those amps work... Reactive loads for the win!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Hey Nick, PM me your address. I have to send this GZ amp back early next week, I'll send you the SS REF2.640 as well.
> 
> For the questions, I also think a 1-10 should be used. I also think that comments MUST be written. I want to know why someone chose something. If they want to constantly reference the previous amp, then that would be fine I think.
> 
> Not sure about actual questions just yet. Though I would like to see a "strength" or something similar criteria asking specifically about damping factor. Can people tell a difference in damping factor? I think it might be completely irrelevant since the amplifiers are changing, but worth noting in the test.


so you can send a GZ amp? 

1-10 as in a scale of how much of a difference you heard? not sure if i like that because that introduces a grey area. you can either 1) hear a difference, 2a) no hear a difference, or 2b) not hear or tell a difference, but they think it may be due to other factors like the environment not being controlled enough, or switching to slow, or whatnot. i was thinking check boxes. one for yes i heard a difference, one for no difference, one for cant tell, but i think it may be attributed to testing environment. then a comment section under it. comments will be written as well as recorded on video interview style like i mentioned. trust me, you guys will be able to see everything first hand. the video will probably be pretty damn long considering it will include runs of most likely each person, for each test, plus their comments in the little interview, plus video of the setup and whatnot


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

also, do you guys think i should use a sub with the speakers? i have a few on hand i was thinking just a diyma r12 in a sealed box playing pretty quite just to fill the bottom octaves in. powered by a zapco dc 500.1 so i can eq the sub perfectly flat. or should i do just the speakers. i think they can play down to about 80hz


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

cajunner said:


> good point, on damping factor.
> 
> have a test group of 8 subs tied together creating massive back EMF and see which amp can keep the cones from going flappy at sub 30 hz tones...
> 
> ...


Actually, I really like the idea of testing distortion. But I think that's another test altogether.

If you have time!



SkizeR said:


> so you can send a GZ amp?
> 
> 1-10 as in a scale of how much of a difference you heard? not sure if i like that because that introduces a grey area. you can either 1) hear a difference, 2a) no hear a difference, or 2b) not hear or tell a difference, but they think it may be due to other factors like the environment not being controlled enough, or switching to slow, or whatnot. i was thinking check boxes. one for yes i heard a difference, one for no difference, one for cant tell, but i think it may be attributed to testing environment. then a comment section under it. comments will be written as well as recorded on video interview style like i mentioned. trust me, you guys will be able to see everything first hand. the video will probably be pretty damn long considering it will include runs of most likely each person, for each test, plus their comments in the little interview, plus video of the setup and whatnot


Nah, GZ amp is going back to Scott.

So your intention is simply to only find out if they can hear a difference? I guess that's the way you were going. I think I was interpreting it as more of an amplifier review than that.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Actually, I really like the idea of testing distortion. But I think that's another test altogether.
> 
> If you have time!
> 
> ...


if there is a clear difference, a review is going to just come in naturally. and as far as distortion, thats what the measured test is for. a friend is bringing his very good o-scope, and im buying a sound card and having a friend make a voltage divider and will be hooking it up to the computer to measure response, and other things if possible


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

in the critical listening phase, or "subjective" critique, you can do some differentials and it won't matter.

the measurement phase, I would include the back EMF as a damping factor "add on" if you have the ability. Just hooking up several big motor subs together with a series-parallel connection gives you the back EMF but stays in the 4 ohm, test range.

and I am not exactly sure how you'd identify "sloppiness" in a meter, or measure it, but you can see it. It's how US Amps made their bones, the sales guy did the test swapping amps out and you could see clearly that the lesser amp brands couldn't hold the cones while the US Amps could.

I don't know if this has ever been verified or if it's just something I believe to be true, but getting damping factor to play nice with a single test speaker for audition, doesn't sound like you will be able to discern....

hence, the multi-motor electrical shove against the amp's innards.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> in the critical listening phase, or "subjective" critique, you can do some differentials and it won't matter.
> 
> the measurement phase, I would include the back EMF as a damping factor "add on" if you have the ability. Just hooking up several big motor subs together with a series-parallel connection gives you the back EMF but stays in the 4 ohm, test range.
> 
> ...


i did google how to measure damping factor the other day, and it looks like itll be expensive


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Damping factor? Really? Are you'll serious??


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Damping factor? Really? Are you'll serious??


yeah considered pointless, but hey, this is what this is for. not sure how measuring it will mean anything, so i probably wont bother. but distortion and frequency response of amp will be fun to dabble in


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

some care packages on the way from vic. thanks again my man

power supply for the test.




brax x2000




ERA PL24 LCR bookshelf speakers





hes also sending a tube preamp to try out which ill also probably buy 

thanks again Vic


----------



## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

The Poor Audiophile: Blind Audio Testing: The Scientific Truth Behind the Myth


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> The Poor Audiophile: Blind Audio Testing: The Scientific Truth Behind the Myth


yoo brian. you gunna be at the syracuse event tomorrow?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> yoo brian. you gunna be at the syracuse event tomorrow?


Yes- I'm doing the meca side of things and pro am for iasca


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> Yes- I'm doing the meca side of things and pro am for iasca


See ya there. Maybe hit up pole position again afterwards

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> now, since i have all amps ready to be shipped besides a linear power, any floorstanding speaker suggestions? or anyone have any here that they would be willing to sell? or high efficiency monitors? just gotta get those, a mic, soundcard, the program to do the measured test, switcher, and an oscope. besides the speakers it should be under 500 or so



I'm actually selling my Martin Logan's since I'm moving to a new place and doing some in-walls there.

If you're interested, let me know. (pm)


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

captain,Not to be an ass but MartinLogan is one word not two.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> captain,Not to be an ass but MartinLogan is one word not two.


i would have made the same mistake. no biggie


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i would have made the same mistake. no biggie


 but now you know


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> but now you know


"and if ya dont know, now ya know.."


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Ass.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> Ass.


Yupp.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Nick, watch this


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> so you can send a GZ amp?
> 
> 1-10 as in a scale of how much of a difference you heard? not sure if i like that because that introduces a grey area. you can either 1) hear a difference, 2a) no hear a difference, or 2b) not hear or tell a difference, but they think it may be due to other factors like the environment not being controlled enough, or switching to slow, or whatnot. i was thinking check boxes. one for yes i heard a difference, one for no difference, one for cant tell, but i think it may be attributed to testing environment. then a comment section under it. comments will be written as well as recorded on video interview style like i mentioned. trust me, you guys will be able to see everything first hand. the video will probably be pretty damn long considering it will include runs of most likely each person, for each test, plus their comments in the little interview, plus video of the setup and whatnot


Sounds like you want a really simple A-B-X test run multiple times like Richard Clark's amplifier challenge. Either people will be able to reliably hear a difference, or not. Add a space for comments, and you should be set.

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> now, since i have all amps ready to be shipped besides a linear power, any floorstanding speaker suggestions? or anyone have any here that they would be willing to sell? or high efficiency monitors? just gotta get those, a mic, soundcard, the program to do the measured test, switcher, and an oscope. besides the speakers it should be under 500 or so


i've got a mic you are welcome to borrow. Its this one:

Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 Microphones for Sale


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> i've got a mic you are welcome to borrow. Its this one:
> 
> Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 Microphones for Sale


I was in the market for one anyway so I'm just going to buy one. Thanks though.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I just got the Cross version. I highly recommend it. it comes with 3 calibration files for on, 45, 90 degree axis reads. 

One thing is that since its USB, I cannot use the loopback function in REW to calibrate the soundcard I guess.

there was some workaround and I lost track of it. :-/
Anyone with info on that, please link me.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

turbo5upra said:


> The Poor Audiophile: Blind Audio Testing: The Scientific Truth Behind the Myth


I would immediately give this test more than anecdotal consideration if each tester would try Harman's listening tutorial at least twice.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Nick, watch this


holy jabroni thats long. ill watch it tonight


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Here is a link an AV pro shared with me, and it sure is refreshing and very helpful. 

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_14374316006679&key=5af70d0413bc4d4fd40fb566dcbe08e8&libId=icchol1x01000b1x000DLmizwsvsa&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toyotanation.com%2Fforum%2F333-3rd-generation-2014%2F1139777-basic-stereo-upgrade-7.html&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DzrpUDuUtxPM&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toyotanation.com%2Fforum%2F333-3rd-generation-2014%2F&title=Basic%20Stereo%20upgrade%20-%20Page%207%20-%20Toyota%20Nation%20Forum%20%3A%20Toyota%20Car%20and%20Truck%20Forums&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DzrpUDuUtxPM


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

how funny...we posted this about the same time !!!
**oops, that was a reply to someone else posting that to you. Yes, you should watch it. Pretty much confirms a number of things you should aim to do in your testing.

FYI, they are on sale almost half price...
Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated MiniDSP UMIK-1 Microphones for Sale

I think the UMM6 is a better made, but not discounted.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i already have a pretty high end shotgun mic, but its highly directional. not sure if that would still work. either way, its just to measure levels. might do frequency response from speakers to but i dont see much of a point unless theres a way obvious difference that we can hear


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

PM me shipping info since we obviously didn't meet up in Syracuse. Did you go?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> PM me shipping info since we obviously didn't meet up in Syracuse. Did you go?


yeah you were there? i completely forgot you were going. most of the time i was in the back since my friend was competing in spl. which car was yours?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> holy jabroni thats long. ill watch it tonight


Set lay speed at 1.5 and save some time.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I didn't compete. I brought my work truck that has a system but the head unit has noise suddenly (as per my help thread). We probably talked to each other and didn't know. Which one was your friends vehicle? I was upfront for a couple hours listen to a couple cars hung out talking up front. My son was one of the two kids playing C.O.D. in the shop. I did check out just about every SPL vehicle quickly. My one friend had never been to a show so I was walking around explaining everything.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> I didn't compete. I brought my work truck that has a system but the head unit has noise suddenly (as per my help thread). We probably talked to each other and didn't know. Which one was your friends vehicle? I was upfront for a couple hours listen to a couple cars hung out talking up front. My son was one of the two kids playing C.O.D. in the shop. I did check out just about every SPL vehicle quickly. My one friend had never been to a show so I was walking around explaining everything.


i came with the guy who set up the display for the voice coil infrared thermometer. and the BRZ next to it drove up with us and he competed. 2 8's did a 140.5


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I was talking to him about the amp temp sensors that you can attach internally. Who needs a voice coil temp sensor. If you smell it, turn it down. If you see smoke turn it up and let it fry!

Anyway pm me the info and I should be able to get it out tomorrow.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> I was talking to him about the amp temp sensors that you can attach internally. Who needs a voice coil temp sensor. If you smell it, turn it down. If you see smoke turn it up and let it fry!
> 
> Anyway pm me the info and I should be able to get it out tomorrow.


spl people who would rather not spend the time and money doing recones. people running pro audio gear to. pro audio drivers get expensive to recone


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> spl people who would rather not spend the time and money doing recones. people running pro audio gear to. pro audio drivers get expensive to recone


Oh I know. I was kidding. I have actually never blown a sub. Even when I used get in the lanes.. Only amps. VC temp sensors would be nice if that was still my thing.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> Oh I know. I was kidding. I have actually never blown a sub. Even when I used get in the lanes.. Only amps. VC temp sensors would be nice if that was still my thing.


for sq guys i could see people running it on their midbass. some people are putting over 500 watts to theirs. might be worth it considering not many midbass's have recone kits. and i actually may buy an amp one too since ill be running my zapcos at 1 ohm on the subs when theyre only listed on the website to 2


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

actually, the guy you probably talked to is going to be here for the test.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Skizer, PM me your address, I'm going to send you the butler tube driver td750 and the PG ms-2125. The butler apparently just needs to warm up. I didn't know that about tubes but it makes sense.

If you need to borrow my o-scope I have a 2 channel analog one.

Btw I'm planning to sell those two amps after this test if you come across anyone interested.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

You should have someone run the test on you as well...No peaking!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> You should have someone run the test on you as well...No peaking!


Ill probably be the one running it and have someone give me a shorter version of it after

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Nick, watch this


Victor,

Thank you for sharing this... even though it wasn't intended for me.  I listened to about half at work today. I'm going to finish the rest later. I want to be able to see the Pix he is putting on the PowerPoint. What Ive listened to thus far has been very interesting and I've definetly learned a thing a or two. This guy has clearly been Around the "sound" business for a loooong time.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

butler tube amp, Phoenix Gold MS, and brax x2000 are on their way. zapco dc, JL e4300, and the low end amps are already here. jl HD and a few others are local. so, anyone got a linear power amp they wanna lend


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

brax amp and speakers are here! members who are lending amps are also shipping theres shortly. anyone in the NY/NJ area want to participate?


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## Dynamic SQ (Jul 25, 2015)

Any Arc SE in the mix?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Arete said:


> Victor,
> 
> Thank you for sharing this... even though it wasn't intended for me.  I listened to about half at work today. I'm going to finish the rest later. I want to be able to see the Pix he is putting on the PowerPoint. What Ive listened to thus far has been very interesting and I've definetly learned a thing a or two. This guy has clearly been Around the "sound" business for a loooong time.


He literally wrote the book on our understanding of sound.

http://amzn.to/1OsVgdC


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Dynamic SQ said:


> Any Arc SE in the mix?


i have a guy on facebook that MIGHT be able to lend one. but doubtful :/


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

****, i still need to watch that video


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thought this was somewhat relative to the subject, and just plain funny.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> thought this was somewhat relative to the subject, and just plain funny.


 That very good BTW movie was exploited for just about every topic but cable difference is something new to me. :laugh::laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> That very good BTW movie was exploited for just about every topic but cable difference is something new to me. :laugh::laugh:


this is my favorite one i think. i used to be an avid halo player (i was actually semi-pro at one point, yeah i was a nerd lol). halo 2 and halo 3 were probably the greatest games ever made to me, and any other halo fan. halo reach was good when it got fixed, then halo 4 was an absolute joke. then out came MCC, which was all the games besides reach in one, and they ****ed it up VERY badly.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

ErinH said:


> He literally wrote the book on our understanding of sound.
> 
> http://amzn.to/1OsVgdC


Have you read this book? Is the target audience for this book people that have been doing it for a while or would someone fairly new be able to understand it? I must say during the talk he did lose me A couple times. I really enjoyed it though. Learning isnt about finding all the answers, it's about gaining deeper questions.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Another video that may be worth listening to. 

"Trained Audiophile Listening - Dr. Sean Olive from Harman International"

http://youtu.be/6NgkP8aABO4


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Arete said:


> Have you read this book? Is the target audience for this book people that have been doing it for a while or would someone fairly new be able to understand it? I must say during the talk he did lose me A couple times. I really enjoyed it though. Learning isnt about finding all the answers, it's about gaining deeper questions.


This is one of my favorite books. It is generally written for the common person and can be understood without too much head scratching. There are some technical sections that may be beyond your current grasp, and I'll admit I've had to read it many times through to absorb everything that is being discussed, but absolutely worth the read. The more times I read through this book, the more I learned.

Highly recommended.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Arete said:


> Have you read this book? Is the target audience for this book people that have been doing it for a while or would someone fairly new be able to understand it? I must say during the talk he did lose me A couple times. I really enjoyed it though. Learning isnt about finding all the answers, it's about gaining deeper questions.


I echo Jazzi's sentiments. I won't say that it's an easy book to read and I have a science/technical background (as do many on this forum). There are certainly sections where I have to go back and read a couple times over (or go back and read another section to understand the foundation for). But overall, it's still a great read. I have a digital copy on my iPad and often re-read through sections while I'm on travel. And every time I am able to better understand things or relate them to my own experiences in audio as I keep at the hobby.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so, how bout some NY/NJ area people willing to help test


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

just for the hell of it, these are the amps that are a definite..

. Brax x2000 sold to me by vic
. Mosconi A class courtesy of Dano
. Zapco DC 360.4 (migh thave to bridge it to get it on the same power level as the others)
. Butler tube amp and Phoenix gold MS-2125 courtesy of vwDave
. eclipse 32430 courtesy of Theslacking (?)
. SS REF2.640 courtesy of gckless
. factory refurbished Boston GT-2125 courtesy of seafish (?)
. JL HD 600/4, various other amps like a vibe 4 channel, shark audio, and possibly crescendo 4 channel courtesy of Edzzy
. tru tech billet and hammer courtesy of Colin
. older Phoenix Gold Ti courtesy of my friend Elvis
. RE audio 4 channel courtesy of my friend Mattei
. Lanzar Vibe452N from work
. Pioneer GM-5500T from work
. and last but not least (well, maybe lol) Pyle PLMRA430BT

edit: also forgot about JL e4300 and some skar audio 4 channel that a local friend has


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm sending my SS REF2.640 for sure, if you still want it. Just been busy man, haven't gotten it out yet.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> I'm sending my SS REF2.640 for sure, if you still want it. Just been busy man, haven't gotten it out yet.


oh yeah i forgot about that. for some reason i didnt have it written down on my notepad document with the amps coming, testers, and other equipment needed. ill add it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jesus christ. just realized thats about 20 amps


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> jesus christ. just realized thats about 20 amps


Lol, yeah it's a handful. I don't HAVE to send it.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Do you have a tentative date set for the test? How long after the test do you think you will get the results posted? Thanks again for putting this together.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> Do you have a tentative date set for the test? How long after the test do you think you will get the results posted? Thanks again for putting this together.


no exact date yet. trying to see when edzyy will be home from atlanta so he can come through. he just told me that might not be for another few weeks. and the other locals have pretty much told me they dont have any set plans in middle auguest- early september and to just keep them posted. im trying to find a perfect date to have the most people. if not, ill do 2 days i guess. how long to get results? could be a bit of time. i plan on doing a write up with all the results as well as a video, both documenting the whole thing. id rather not release results until then, but we will see. and no problem


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

So with folks out of all those nice oldschool A/B amps, does that mean they are all happily running some newer D class, hehehe. JK

As long as you have a good range of newest to not so new range of D class amps, like the PPi, or the NVX, or Alpine. Maybe one also of the older slower freq D class it might help see a difference? 

Either way, I had recently posted in the Classifieds thread, as I was looking for a new 4 ch higher power compact amp, and I got some responses with a set of good options. The concern in the feedback was more about interference in radio freq more than anything about sound quality, which was interesting.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> So with folks out of all those nice oldschool A/B amps, does that mean they are all happily running some newer D class, hehehe. JK
> 
> As long as you have a good range of newest to not so new range of D class amps, like the PPi, or the NVX, or Alpine. Maybe one also of the older slower freq D class it might help see a difference?
> 
> Either way, I had recently posted in the Classifieds thread, as I was looking for a new 4 ch higher power compact amp, and I got some responses with a set of good options. The concern in the feedback was more about interference in radio freq more than anything about sound quality, which was interesting.


i actually do want to get ahold of a ppi 900.4


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> So with folks out of all those nice oldschool A/B amps, does that mean they are all happily running some newer D class, hehehe. JK
> 
> As long as you have a good range of newest to not so new range of D class amps, like the PPi, or the NVX, or Alpine. Maybe one also of the older slower freq D class it might help see a difference?
> 
> Either way, I had recently posted in the Classifieds thread, as I was looking for a new 4 ch higher power compact amp, and I got some responses with a set of good options. The concern in the feedback was more about interference in radio freq more than anything about sound quality, which was interesting.


 I'm sure then most have plenty of amps available so they can lend one or two for common good. I do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just a thought, you've got like 20 amps and you'll probably have 8-10 parameters that you want to test each amp for. That's like 200 unique calls that every participant will have to make. Way, way to many calls to make while maintaining any degree of reliability, imho.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Just a thought, you've got like 20 amps and you'll probably have 8-10 parameters that you want to test each amp for. That's like 200 unique calls that every participant will have to make. Way, way to many calls to make while maintaining any degree of reliability, imho.


what do you mean unique calls? and there will be one test with everyone switching between each and every amp, then some where its a stress test on the listener to see if they can actually tell a difference. for this, only a few amps will be used.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Walk through the whole test and figure out how many times the listener has to make a choice (even not hearing a difference is a choice), if the test requires the listener to make more than 10-15 calls, you may start to loose reliability. 

If you can make the test short, you can actually run it twice to check for correlation, so for the first test the sequence of amps could be A / B / C / D and for the second run it could be D / C / B / A etc. Check if there is repeat ability in the opinions.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Walk through the whole test and figure out how many times the listener has to make a choice (even not hearing a difference is a choice), if the test requires the listener to make more than 10-15 calls, you may start to loose reliability.
> 
> If you can make the test short, you can actually run it twice to check for correlation, so for the first test the sequence of amps could be A / B / C / D and for the second run it could be D / C / B / A etc. Check if there is repeat ability in the opinions.


well look at it this way. if i dont have a good amount of amps, and it turns out there is no difference between any of the amps, the ones who think there is will eat me alive for not having enough amps in the test.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> well look at it this way. if i dont have a good amount of amps, and it turns out there is no difference between any of the amps, the ones who think there is will eat me alive for not having enough amps in the test.


lol, whatever be the outcome of your test, one side is going to be pissed. Just focus on getting reliable results. In any case, I think you understand what I'm getting at.

I am really curious to hear what you expect to hear. With all the amps set up properly, do you think you'll hear a difference?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> lol, whatever be the outcome of your test, one side is going to be pissed. Just focus on getting reliable results. In any case, I think you understand what I'm getting at.
> 
> I am really curious to hear what you expect to hear. With all the amps set up properly, do you think you'll hear a difference?


Honestly, yes I do. But how much, Idk

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

We do degree of difference testing at work 3 days a week for products and I will tell you the human brain has a short time it can remember things like sounds, tastes and smells. If you have too many choices that every tester has to go thru it will be impossible for them to remember what something sounded like 30 seconds ago vs what they are hearing now.

Listener fatigue is also a HUGE issue, your going to burn out pretty quickly doing this, I would recommend you choose 5-7 amps and 1 control that is your bench mark and go from there. Do random switches via a board so it is quick and there is minimal/no lag time and make the listening level on the lower side/conversation level so testers dont get burned out. 

Just my $.02, good luck.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

chefhow said:


> We do degree of difference testing at work 3 days a week for products and I will tell you the human brain has a short time it can remember things like sounds, tastes and smells. If you have too many choices that every tester has to go thru it will be impossible for them to remember what something sounded like 30 seconds ago vs what they are hearing now.
> 
> Listener fatigue is also a HUGE issue, your going to burn out pretty quickly doing this, I would recommend you choose 5-7 amps and 1 control that is your bench mark and go from there. Do random switches via a board so it is quick and there is minimal/no lag time and make the listening level on the lower side/conversation level so testers dont get burned out.
> 
> Just my $.02, good luck.


Thanks Howard. i think the major testing there will only be 8 amps used. the rest that im getting from work and local friends are just extra to try out. and i think i have the listener fatigue situation figured out. each person does one test at a time, then onto the next person. then when everyone is done, on to the next test. again, this will all have to be figured out once i get the amps and everything setup. its hard to say without having everything in front of you


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Chefhow, you make absolute sense. I would agree you have way too many amps. *Glad to see that you will make the needed changes once things are in place.

3 in the AB section, 3 in another and 3 in the D and you have less than 10 and the points Chefhow pointed out are very true. Also the test done in the morning is something I would recommend. Most people over the course for day have to go through a lot of sound vibes and it overloads the head, and at a point of fatigue. In the morning things are fresh and relaxed more so than at end of day.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> i actually do want to get ahold of a ppi 900.4


A PPI 900.4 should def. be in the test. It's usually the first amp mentioned when someone is looking for a budget 4 channel.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> Chefhow, you make absolute sense. I would agree you have way too many amps. *Glad to see that you will make the needed changes once things are in place.
> 
> 3 in the AB section, 3 in another and 3 in the D and you have less than 10 and the points Chefhow pointed out are very true. Also the test done in the morning is something I would recommend. Most people over the course for day have to go through a lot of sound vibes and it overloads the head, and at a point of fatigue. In the morning things are fresh and relaxed more so than at end of day.


there are no topology class groups. just a test to see if they all sound different from each other. and if they do, how much different do they sound and which one(s) sound the best/worst


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

they will certainly sound "different" as they will have charactoristics. This I did a test on a group of home theater amps. They had a slight difference in how they sounded. Nothing a bit of EQing can't level out. Headroom and things like power and sound at the higher output are areas they may differ more so than anything else, I would think....if you expect to run things at the 4ohm "standard" or not, etc.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> they will certainly sound "different" as they will have charactoristics. This I did a test on a group of home theater amps. They had a slight difference in how they sounded. Nothing a bit of EQing can't level out. Headroom and things like power and sound at the higher output are areas they may differ more so than anything else, I would think....if you expect to run things at the 4ohm "standard" or not, etc.


well as far as headroom, thats why im getting amps with similar power ratings


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

When I did such testing I selected two amps, chose best I like and eliminate another. and so on until I select absolute winner. doing more than 2 at the time it`s just more confusion.Both amps set to the same power level at comfortable volume.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

How will you deal with the so called "under rated"...or... "cheater" amps 

I guess at first you might want to bench their points and then set the gains and such?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> How will you deal with the so called "under rated"...or... "cheater" amps
> 
> I guess at first you might want to bench their points and then set the gains and such?


and which ones are those? but either way, gains will be set with scope and mic to verify that theyre playing at the same level


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> When I did such testing I selected two amps, chose best I like and eliminate another. and so on until I select absolute winner. doing more than 2 at the time it`s just more confusion.Both amps set to the same power level at comfortable volume.



Thats what I was going to suggest. Maybe make up a bracket (like college basketball) where you put a "higher end" amp against a "budget" amp. That the winner, cycle through everyone for each pair. I'd be curious to see if some amps get picked more than others.

And I am not worried about how long this test will take. I have 20+ old school class A/Bs sitting around here.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

not a bad idea


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Wish I'd seen this thread sooner, I have a few amps to contribute if you want any more:

Sinfoni Shadow 50.2spx (95Wx2)
Helix P400 (110Wx4)
Soundstream Van Gogh VGA500.4 (125Wx4)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Wish I'd seen this thread sooner, I have a few amps to contribute if you want any more:
> 
> *Sinfoni Shadow 50.2spx (95Wx2)*
> 
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so, got a Phoenix Gold and Butler amp in from vwdave, as well as the boston amp from seafish today. so far, that makes those 3, plus my brax and zapco dc, then two amps from work. just need to make a date and the testers can bring the amps they offered up and this will go down


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm trying my hardest to get this amp out this week. Work has been killing me.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Wooohooo! Cat throw down about to happen! ;-)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> I'm trying my hardest to get this amp out this week. Work has been killing me.


if not, dont worry about it. also you have plenty of time.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thinking about doing this on the 23rd of august. anyone willing to come who i havent spoke to about it already?


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Arete said:


> A PPI 900.4 should def. be in the test. It's usually the first amp mentioned when someone is looking for a budget 4 channel.


I will be sending A PPI P-900.4 and a NVX 800.4. (same board and chip, one seems to have better components) I'll send them next week if that's ok.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> I will be sending A PPI P-900.4 and a NVX 800.4. (same board and chip, one seems to have better components) I'll send them next week if that's ok.


thats perfect. thanks. this is actually pretty good and maybe we can see if upgraded components do make a difference or not


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## KSakai (Jul 31, 2015)

I ever did a blind test without knowing any specs of any amps since they were a DIY amps.. gain were matched each other.

amp does sounds different. one sounds airy, one sounds accurate.
it turned that the one sounds airy does have a higher slewrate meanwhile the accurate one has very low THD.. no lies, i don't know anything before the test done.

so, the difference is likely about supply rejection, gain margin, phase margin, slewrate, and harmonic distortion..

amp were turtledove (Perkutut by Anistardi) and Blameless
those were home amp tbh.. but i thought it's applicable on car amp 

I'm so sorry I have no amp to contribute..it's still on my LTSpice..not even done :blush:


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I did send out that amp. Did you get it?


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm waiting for a group photo of the amps participating in the test.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> I did send out that amp. Did you get it?



i was just about to PM you. yes i got it. still going to send you a PM though as i have a question




vwdave said:


> I'm waiting for a group photo of the amps participating in the test.


i was about to last night, but i dont have all yet. i will shortly though


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so im not sure if this can happen in august. maybe last weekend in august or first weekend in september? most of the people wont be able to make it to my proposed august 23rd date. if this is to late for some of the amp donors, just let me know and i will send it back. pic of the amps that were loaned and shipped to me. big thanks to vwdave, fishman, danno, theslacking, seafish, and gkless. also have a sinfoni amp coming from catalyx which should be here soon.

PPI 900.4 and NVX JAD800.4 from fishman. Phoenix Gold MS-2125 and Butler tube amp from vwdave. Mosconi a class from danno14. Boston GT-2125 from seafish. eclipse 32430 from theslacking. and soundstream reference from gkless. and the brax x2000 i got in a trade from victor

not pictured is the sinfoni shadow from catalyx, jl hd from Ed(?), zuki amps from both pitmaster and randyj, skar audio amp from my friend mike. my zapco DC 2 or 4 channel. and last, and deservingly least, a pyle marine amp im getting from work lol


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

weren't you getting a linear power amp as well?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Brian_smith06 said:


> weren't you getting a linear power amp as well?


im still trying. no one wants to offer one and i dont have 900 dollars for a 50 watt 2 channel that looks like its 20 years old lol


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## Dynamic SQ (Jul 25, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> im still trying. no one wants to offer one and i dont have 900 dollars for a 50 watt 2 channel that looks like its 20 years old lol


I'm not sure if you care which LP amp you get, but you won't get the best from them unless you get a MODIFIED DPS500, DPS350, or one of the new amps. The old amps sound good, but the amps I named are the best they've offered. 

As you stated though, they aren't cheap. Some of the older members here ran off the LP guys when the huge FORUM BONER for LP ended on this forum, which is the reason why you are having a harder time finding one.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Dynamic SQ said:


> I'm not sure if you care which LP amp you get, but you won't get the best from them unless you get a MODIFIED DPS500, DPS350, or one of the new amps. The old amps sound good, but the amps I named are the best they've offered.
> 
> As you stated though, they aren't cheap. Some of the older members here ran off the LP guys when the huge FORUM BONER for LP ended on this forum, which is the reason why you are having a harder time finding one.


ive been searching in other places too. all over facebook, making calls to people i know all over the country, etc. no one is willing to even sell their new ones. and where in NY are you? wanna come through and participate in this test?


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks for the group photo. Once you have all of the amps ere I'd say put together a cool artsy photo...that's one of the coolest groupings of amps I've seen in a while.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

+1 on the pic


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> Thanks for the group photo. Once you have all of the amps ere I'd say put together a cool artsy photo...that's one of the coolest groupings of amps I've seen in a while.


dont you worry


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Depending on how long you need them i may have enough time to pull the JL 300/4 and loan it for a bit. The JL silk screen is worn off but the amp was just serviced at JL like a year or so ago so it works perfect.
I just have to make time to pull it from the car and slap the 450/4 in its place which means I need to make a whole new amp rack.

Let me know. If so I will light a fire under my buddies ass to get it done.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LaserSVT said:


> Depending on how long you need them i may have enough time to pull the JL 300/4 and loan it for a bit. The JL silk screen is worn off but the amp was just serviced at JL like a year or so ago so it works perfect.
> I just have to make time to pull it from the car and slap the 450/4 in its place which means I need to make a whole new amp rack.
> 
> Let me know. If so I will light a fire under my buddies ass to get it done.


no need. have plenty of amps at this point. only one i really want is a damn LP amp


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

Test looks easy enough. I bet the Sinfoni comes out on top with the Mosconi and Brax duking it out for second with Zapco and the Soundstream close behind followed by the Phoenix Gold and Butler. The Zuki and Boston are wild cards for me as i have never heard them.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LaserSVT said:


> Test looks easy enough. I bet the Sinfoni comes out on top with the Mosconi and Brax duking it out for second with Zapco and the Soundstream close behind followed by the Phoenix Gold and Butler. The Zuki and Boston are wild cards for me as i have never heard them.


thats if they sound different


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Here's to hoping few can hear a difference consistently among most of them.


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## Dynamic SQ (Jul 25, 2015)

Weigel21 said:


> Here's to hoping few can hear a difference consistently among most of them.


Why? Are you really going to change your own opinion formed from your own experience because a bunch of people you don't know may not hear a difference?

No offense to Skizer, but this test is more for him than anyone else. He gets to reap the benefits of the experience and outcome, and hear it first hand.

I would urge everyone else to do the same. Experience it for yourself.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Dynamic SQ said:


> Why? Are you really going to change your own opinion formed from your own experience because a bunch of people you don't know may not hear a difference?
> 
> No offense to Skizer, *but this test is more for him than anyone else. He gets to reap the benefits of the experience and outcome, and hear it first hand.*
> 
> I would urge everyone else to do the same. Experience it for yourself.


this. what happens in this test may or may not be accurate. who knows. im trying to control it the best i can, but with such a small group, who knows. im going to video the whole thing and document every detail the best i can. but as with all things on the internet, take it with a grain of salt. dynamic, why not come and experience it with is


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

I haven't been around any truly high end equipment and own mid-level gear myself. It'd just be a little more assuring to hear that some of the forum members couldn't hear a distinct difference between amplifiers to correctly identify most of them time and time again. 

If I lived MUCH closer, I'd love to have been able to participate myself, but KS is WAY too far away. 

Hell, I'd have even offered up some amplifiers as well, but none of mine met the power requirements.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Dynamic SQ said:


> Why? Are you really going to change your own opinion formed from your own experience because a bunch of people you don't know may not hear a difference?
> 
> No offense to Skizer, but this test is more for him than anyone else. He gets to reap the benefits of the experience and outcome, and hear it first hand.
> 
> I would urge everyone else to do the same. Experience it for yourself.


Exactly. Skizer`s mind is set on sounds the same camp.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Oh, and I've never had the opportunity to hear the same setup with different amplifiers. So really, I haven't much of an opinion on the matter yet.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Exactly. Skizer`s mind is set on sounds the same camp.


it absolutely is not. i do think there will be a difference. i just dont think it will be as much as some make it out to be


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

LaserSVT said:


> Test looks easy enough. I bet the Sinfoni comes out on top with the Mosconi and Brax duking it out for second with Zapco and the Soundstream close behind followed by the Phoenix Gold and Butler. The Zuki and Boston are wild cards for me as i have never heard them.


 You should delete this post, you skewing test before it even started.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

The only problem with test like this. Nobody hears the same thing. One says a amp sounds warm one will say the same amp sounds lifeless. 

Just like a mid test I read last week. So and so speaker is the only one we heard *** noise through. I heard the *** noise on my iPhone speaker. 

Just don't EQ anything.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> it absolutely is not. i do think there will be a difference. i just dont think it will be as much as some make it out to be


Before you said that you can`t hear a difference at all, remember?

I`m glad if you can free you mind and start from clean list.
quantitative differences in sound quality is hard to establish.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You should delete this post, you skewing test before it even started.


let alone the nuthuggery


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> let alone the nuthuggery


Damn right!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Before you said that you can`t hear a difference at all, remember?
> 
> I`m glad if you can free you mind and start from clean list.
> quantitative differences in sound quality is hard to establish.


if i was convinced there wasnt a difference, why would i be wasting mine, and others time doing this? let alone the 2000 dollars ive spend on this so far


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I would say test more than sound. Run them hard for a long time. Check board temps and efficiency drop over time. That's where the quality part comes in. 

Not just what it can do for one song.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Damn right!


lol i knew thats what you wanted to say, so i helped you out a bit :laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> I would say test more than sound. Run them hard for a long time. Check board temps and efficiency drop over time. That's where the quality part comes in.
> 
> Not just what it can do for one song.


check the amps temps? all amps get up to different temps, so im not sure what the point of that would be


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> lol i knew thats what you wanted to say, so i helped you out a bit :laugh:


You know me a bit better than others participating.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> if i was convinced there wasnt a difference, why would i be wasting mine, and others time doing this? let alone the 2000 dollars ive spend on this so far


Masochistic tendencies? I`m not sure. you tell me. To train your hearing so you can beat mr Clark test?
2000 bucks most of which you can recoup later is small price for experience.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> check the amps temps? all amps get up to different temps, so im not sure what the point of that would be


Hotter they get the more efficiency drops. Something like measuring how good the heat sink/control is. Long term usage.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Overall quality, materials used and if they work, sound for a album not one track. 

You are paying for the whole package.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Hotter they get the more efficiency drops. Something like measuring how good the heat sink/control is. Long term usage.


 having them work into resistive loads when other amp playing is easiest way to accomplish that.
measuring temp of the amp is pointless without measuring THD and output but that became too complicated.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

All amps will have to be set with DMM to keep power the same right? THD shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think. 

To do it right it will be complicated. Some amps react better on different octaves, some handle rise better. In a perfect world that stuff matters. That's the stuff that can't be EQed


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Out of curiosity, (haven't followed the thread too closely) just how quickly will you be able to switch from one amplifier to another? Building some sort of sound board with a switch panel to instantly switch between amplifiers?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Out of curiosity, (haven't followed the thread too closely) just how quickly will you be able to switch from one amplifier to another? Building some sort of sound board with a switch panel to instantly switch between amplifiers?


pretty much instantly. less than a second


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> All amps will have to be set with DMM to keep power the same right? THD shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think.
> 
> To do it right it will be complicated. Some amps react better on different octaves, some handle rise better. In a perfect world that stuff matters. That's the stuff that can't be EQed


 even amps from the same bunch sounds different, you don`t have to convince me. Hope Nick can hear that. Also I`d use unfamiliar music preferably in the genre I don`t like. heatsink temperature by itself means nothing, mosfets stable up to 180 degree celcius. that is almost twice boiling point.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Out of curiosity, (haven't followed the thread too closely) just how quickly will you be able to switch from one amplifier to another? Building some sort of sound board with a switch panel to instantly switch between amplifiers?


 he need something like this or comparable thing to switch momentarily.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Cool. 

One of my local audio shops used to have multiple amps and speakers you could switch between, but probably six/seven years ago, they did away with being able to choose between amplifiers. 

I never got a chance to ever mess with it as only employees were permitted to use it and I didn't really have the money to buy anything, so it would have just felt wrong to bother them.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Some shops and installers are lowering inventory since so many buy online. I know 4 shops cutting down, which 2 of don't stock much of anything at all.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

I don't think there's an accurate way to check long term reliability. I mean the old amps (like mine) should win, the MS-2125 is already 20 years old. The Sou datream is about as old (I think). I'd love to know if the current amps,would last as long. I'd guess that Brax and Mosconi would but I doubt the lower and middle end stuff from today would last.

There really isn't one correct way to do this. Nick won't be able to satisfy everyone in what he tests for. He needs to test the right things to prove or disprove it for himself, and maybe that will be enough to get other people to perform these tests.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

duplicate post


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Your desire for testing an LP amp made me pull the trigger on buying a nicely modified DPS500 I'd been eyeing so it will be on the way to you as soon as I get it. 

Modified Linear Power DPS500 Sq Amplifier T03P&apos;s Upgraded Opamps Recapped | eBay


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Your desire for testing an LP amp made me pull the trigger on buying a nicely modified DPS500 I'd been eyeing so it will be on the way to you as soon as I get it.
> 
> Modified Linear Power DPS500 Sq Amplifier T03P&apos;s Upgraded Opamps Recapped | eBay


. You are the man! Thank you so much. 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Dynamic SQ said:


> I'm not sure if you care which LP amp you get, but you won't get the best from them unless you get a MODIFIED DPS500, DPS350, or one of the new amps. The old amps sound good, but the amps I named are the best they've offered.
> 
> As you stated though, they aren't cheap. Some of the older members here ran off the LP guys when the huge FORUM BONER for LP ended on this forum, which is the reason why you are having a harder time finding one.


looks like a modified dps500 is on its way. this should get interesting


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> . You are the man! Thank you so much.


Glad to help the cause!


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> All amps will have to be set with DMM to keep power the same right? THD shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think.
> 
> To do it right it will be complicated. Some amps react better on different octaves, some handle rise better. In a perfect world that stuff matters. That's the stuff that can't be EQed


That's a good point. When I did this for home stereo amp, I have about 6 units and while they had their individual character, it wasn't drastic and something pretty easily adjustable with EQ.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

All amps will be set within tight tolerance of each other via oscope and mic

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


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## Dynamic SQ (Jul 25, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> looks like a modified dps500 is on its way. this should get interesting


Seeing that you have numerous nice amps in the mix now, I think an Arc SE would be a great addition. They have a transparent and very natural sound to them that are unlike most amps on the market. To be honest, they are my favorite amps available for car audio.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Dynamic SQ said:


> Seeing that you have numerous nice amps in the mix now, I think an Arc SE would be a great addition. They have a transparent and very natural sound to them that are unlike most amps on the market. To be honest, they are my favorite amps available for car audio.


Agreed, it'd be great to get an Arc SE 4100 in the mix. Sticking with currently available models, these would also be some ideal additions:

DLS Reference CC-2
Focal FPS 4160
Genesis Series III Dual Mono
GZPA Reference 2T
Phass RE 4.25 bridged
Tru Tech B41-S


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Are you going to create a facebook page for the project?


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

Check out post #358 on. It was mentioned, don't know the outcome.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

actually not yet. i should do that


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

got the sinfoni shadow amp yesterday from catalyx. needless to say, its beautiful. but, at the end of the day its about the sound. so we will soon see what this recent sinfoni boner going around is all about


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)




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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

for whoever wants to participate, test will b august 30th. not sure if there will be a second date.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rca distrobution almost done. should be done tomorrow once the cable gets here tomorrow. just waiting on that, and the LP amp which is in the mail and anyone can come by whenever they want to test, or on one of the sundays that ill try to get multiple people to come. if some of you guys want to come but feel as if your to far, i can cover gas for you. getting more people would be great


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

What's inside the box?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> What's inside the box?


magic sq stuffs.. 

its just to split signal to all of the amps. it has left and right signal in, and splits each one into 18 other outputs for a total of 36 channels.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Jazzi said:


> What's inside the box?


yeah, open it up nick, show off.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> magic sq stuffs..
> 
> its just to split signal to all of the amps. it has left and right signal in, and splits each one into 18 other outputs for a total of 36 channels.


passive splitter,so amp with lower input impedance will have advantage.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> yeah, open it up nick, show off.


its empty right now




Victor_inox said:


> passive splitter,so amp with lower input impedance will have advantage.


how so?


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

will that box effect the signal voltage level?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> its empty right now
> 
> 
> 
> ...



think about it you have two subs one 2 Ohm another 4, which one will get more power if wired in parallel to common amp You don`t think they will get equal amount of power, don`t you?


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## rxonmymind (Sep 7, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> rca distrobution almost done. should be done tomorrow once the cable gets here tomorrow. just waiting on that, and the LP amp which is in the mail and anyone can come by whenever they want to test, or on one of the sundays that ill try to get multiple people to come. if some of you guys want to come but *feel as if your to far, i can cover gas for you.* getting more people would be great


Awesome! Coming from California! Good luck with the test. Looking forward to the results.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> think about it you have two subs one 2 Ohm another 4, which one will get more power if wired in parallel to common amp You don`t think they will get equal amount of power, don`t you?


Won't level matching compensate for that?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> will that box effect the signal voltage level?


nope. voltage doesnt divide. amperage does


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> for whoever wants to participate, test will b august 30th. not sure if there will be a second date.


I'm still good for the 30th


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Timelessr1 said:


> I'm still good for the 30th


just finishing up the rca's now. do you know anyone else that would be interested? the more the merrier


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

pic of all the amps minus the zapco dc and the low end amps im getting locally, and possibly a JL HD


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> just finishing up the rca's now. do you know anyone else that would be interested? the more the merrier


I wish I did... Seems to be a dying breed around here....


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Looks awesome. Wish you were closer.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I just checked the schedule. The Yankees don't play at home for 4 days before or for 4days after the 30th. I would have come to the test if I could have caught a game as well. As much as I would enjoy attending the test if I go NYC area I need to catch a game!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> I just checked the schedule. The Yankees don't play at home for 4 days before or for 4days after the 30th. I would have come to the test if I could have caught a game as well. As much as I would enjoy attending the test if I go NYC area I need to catch a game!


if you want, you can come whenever. i have the 30th set and possibly the weekend after, but im also open to people coming in between if they chose as long as im free, which i usually am. its just more fun with everyone together


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

How about I make this interesting to generate more people to come. If you came, and can blindly pick all amps out just by how they sound, you win the Brax amp I bought for this test.

Of course you can listen to them in plain sight with you controlling before hand

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

If you have some people over the weekend after the 30th like 9/5th-6th I may be in. I could probably talk my wife in to going to a game that Monday. Yanks will be in a 10 game home stand and she loves going to games. If I get her involved, I'm in!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> If you have some people over the weekend after the 30th like 9/5th-6th I may be in. I could probably talk my wife in to going to a game that Monday. Yanks will be in a 10 game home stand and she loves going to games. If I get her involved, I'm in!


tell her you have a chance to win a brax amp


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

So my brax suddenly became a prise, nice

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I think I might stop by to claim it back

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> I think I might stop by to claim it back
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


lol 

Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> I think I might stop by to claim it back
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


gotta be able to blindly identify the 15 amps though. think you can do it?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> gotta be able to blindly identify the 15 amps though. think you can do it?


Describe to me how you will conduct this challenge?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Describe to me how you will conduct this challenge?


you can listen to all of the amps as you please with you controlling which one is playing so you can get an idea of how they sound, then i switch them up, and play each one, one by one, and if you can tell me which one is playing every time, you can have the brax amp


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

do you still want/need a JL HD600/4? 

if you do, I could be talked in to lending mine out but it would have to be treated VERY well as it's going in to an upcoming install that will be shown off. sucker is still BNIB and I won't be able to do anything with it _at least_ for a few weeks.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

btw, have you posted up the exact method of how you're going to do this?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> you can listen to all of the amps as you please with you controlling which one is playing so you can get an idea of how they sound, then i switch them up, and play each one, one by one, and if you can tell me which one is playing every time, you can have the brax amp


 If you let me play signal I supply at volume I ask at the last step You`ll lose your brax most definitely. If not, nobody have that audio memory to memorise sonic signature for more than 20 seconds.
What does that prove?


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> pic of all the amps minus the zapco dc and the low end amps im getting locally, and possibly a JL HD


Front and center baby!


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

ErinH said:


> do you still want/need a JL HD600/4?
> 
> if you do, I could be talked in to lending mine out but it would have to be treated VERY well as it's going in to an upcoming install that will be shown off. sucker is still BNIB and I won't be able to do anything with it _at least_ for a few weeks.


I would not have lent my amps to Nick if I didn't think he would take really good care of them. I have a lot of money eye invested in mine and I plan to sell them after this project, so that would mean money directly out of my pocket if they were damaged.

I don't think you have anything to worry about with Nick.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

vwdave said:


> I would not have lent my amps to Nick if I didn't think he would take really good care of them. I have a lot of money eye invested in mine and I plan to sell them after this project, so that would mean money directly out of my pocket if they were damaged.
> 
> I don't think you have anything to worry about with Nick.


X2…NOT that the Boston GT2125 that I lent him is worth a lot of money,m but I still would not have done it had I thought he wouldn't take care of it perfectly well. The biggest danger is of course shipping, but the correct double box techniques mitigate that easily…AND he offered to pay for shipping, though I didn't take him up on it!!!

All that being said, I am getting VERY curious as to how all this turns out (though certainly I am one of those leaning well towards NOT being able to tell a difference between amps that are of an equal quality level)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> do you still want/need a JL HD600/4?
> 
> if you do, I could be talked in to lending mine out but it would have to be treated VERY well as it's going in to an upcoming install that will be shown off. sucker is still BNIB and I won't be able to do anything with it _at least_ for a few weeks.


That would be greatly appreciated. If anything happens I can just buy a new one for you like I agreed with everyone else. I was supposed to get one from edzyy but he's been in Atlanta for almost 2 months. I have a few tests planned but nothing solid yet. I'm going to look up more abx style methods tonight and set everything in stone within a few days. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> If you let me play signal I supply at volume I ask at the last step You`ll lose your brax most definitely. If not, nobody have that audio memory to memorise sonic signature for more than 20 seconds.
> What does that prove?


How about you can control volume, but can't go into clipping

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice variety. The HD600 should round it out nicely. Looking forward to the results.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Just don't let this turn into every speaker round up. 
Judges talking about how they only heard certain things with one speaker when you can hear the same thing from a phones speaker


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> Just don't let this turn into every speaker round up.
> Judges talking about how they only heard certain things with one speaker when you can hear the same thing from a phones speaker


If that's the case, it is what it is


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ok, is there anyone here thats very familiar with REW? going to need some help. if so can you PM me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so, before i make a new thread for the actual testing and predictions and whatnot, heres my proposed testing methods. open to critique and suggestions. the goal is to keep it short and simple, yet effective. 

1) non-blind, tester gets to go through each amp as they please and give their impressions

2) same as above, but blind. see if the results match up

3) pick a smaller number of amps (3-5), or even all, let them listen to them non blind to get an idea of how they supposedly sound, then make them listen to them blind and have they try to pick out which amp is playing, or make them listen blind but give each amp a number so they can associate a number with a sound characteristic and have them pick out each amp blind

4) free brax amp challenge.. let them listen to all amps non-blind to get an idea of how they all sound, then have them pick out each and every amp blind. if they get them all right, they can walk away with the brax amp, no questions asked. if they can do this, this can pretty much put a nail in the coffin on the whole thing (so long as everything is set within tight tolerances)


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> How about you can control volume, but can't go into clipping
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I`m just messing with you, I can`t come in so your brax is save with you.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> so, before i make a new thread for the actual testing and predictions and whatnot, heres my proposed testing methods. open to critique and suggestions. the goal is to keep it short and simple, yet effective.
> 
> 1) non-blind, tester gets to go through each amp as they please and give their impressions
> 
> ...


 How about selecting best amp out of the groups of 3 and repeat blind to see if it`s the same. no impression needed to be put down It`s a waste of time.
If there a clean winner in the group then you can select best of each group and put them against each other. Final amplifier could be one for everybody or different if different put those agains each other and see what describable difference is. 
Human hearing test, no fancy measurements needed.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I think the descriptions might help him see if the comments are more towards something that can be easily adjusted or if there is a more inherent reason for the characteristic defined. I'm not suggesting anything, just that there might be a difference(adjustable or inherent).


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

if it were me going through this admittedly exhaustive process with other people waiting to criticize my technique, I'd look at the way Sean Olive set up his listening panels, or the engineer with Andy Wehmeyer, when they were settling in on an algorithm for the MS-8.


I'd look at JBL white papers for the fine print, since that's where the meat of any analysis lies, in the set up, in the science of comparison testing.


Andy Wehmeyer probably could point you to the method you will have the most success with, using the hardware you have available.

I'm sure there's more stringent forms of testing that you could undertake but it might require things like motorized turn stiles behind a curtain, hardware that would logistics-wise, be difficult and spendy to set up.

A lot of this test will depend on how capable you are of disguising the stuff in circuit, because the human mind is crafty and all of these testers you scrounge up are actually competitors, even if you don't see them as such.

they will all be searching for the soft spot, because they will want to win.


that makes it that much more important that you are adamant about testing protocols and that nobody feigns to theatrics to get a clue.

"oops, I needed to tie my shoelaces, I had my foot under the curtain and well, I just kind of picked it up out of the way to tie my laces, I didn't see anything... promise?"


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> if it were me going through this admittedly exhaustive process with other people waiting to criticize my technique, I'd look at the way Sean Olive set up his listening panels, or the engineer with Andy Wehmeyer, when they were settling in on an algorithm for the MS-8.
> 
> 
> I'd look at JBL white papers for the fine print, since that's where the meat of any analysis lies, in the set up, in the science of comparison testing.
> ...


are you talking about them being able to see the amps whiel theyre playing? i was thinking about putting a curtain over them, but either way they wont be able to tell which one is playing. and although im sure andy wants nothing to do with this thread, ill send him a link to my post and ask for some help


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

What speakers are you using for this?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> What speakers are you using for this?


a pair of Era PL24. they use eton drivers

PL24 LCR - Len Wallis Audio


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I wish you were using some speakers known to me, or at least a well founded pedigree of success....but of course plenty of them I don't know that would still be great I'm sure. 
But the size of the enclosure and the way these are setup tell me they are limited in output range, particularly in the far ends of the spectrum. I could be wrong, but any decent 2way or a great 3way would have been nice, something with at least a 6, 8 or 10" main driver.
These being part of a HT setup concerns me. Are the LCR not tuned more so for vocals?

I know this Q came up once before, with not much feedback


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I wish you were using some speakers known to me, or at least a well founded pedigree of success....but of course plenty of them I don't know that would still be great I'm sure.
> But the size of the enclosure and the way these are setup tell me they are limited in output range, particularly in the far ends of the spectrum. I could be wrong, but any decent 2way or a great 3way would have been nice, something with at least a 6, 8 or 10" main driver.
> These being part of a HT setup concerns me. Are the LCR not tuned more so for vocals?
> 
> I know this Q came up once before, with not much feedback


tuned for vocals? theyre just large bookshelf speakers. the drivers they use are made by eton and are pretty good (if you know ground zero, they use eton drivers in their second best line from what i can tell). these play flat down to 70hz no problem, and measure relatively flat.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I know you're not trying to adhere to stringent scientific test methods but there should be some level of that to get useful results with enough merit to hold up in forum debate. With that in mind, here are some thoughts:



SkizeR said:


> 1) non-blind, tester gets to go through each amp as they please and give their impressions
> 
> 2) same as above, but blind. see if the results match up


The feedback forms should be mostly comprised of pre-set criteria options to select from with one line for open ended impressions. That way it'll be easier to compare the non-blind to blind results and the less experienced testers will get clues as to what qualities to listen for.

The selector module should always be numbered for reference and you'll need to change the amp positions on that for the blind runs. Doing this each time could be quite tedious so try to find a way to make it quick. Please share your wiring schematic to let everyone here share some tips.

I assume each tester will be on their own and there should be a set time for this step to standardize their amount of analysis and limit overall length, especially when you have a group.

Speaking of the group, in a rigid test none of them would interact to prevent any possible influence they might have on each other's impressions. That's not really practical in this situation but I recommend at least separating the people who haven't taken the first two steps yet from those who have, in some other room.



SkizeR said:


> 3) pick a smaller number of amps (3-5), or even all, let them listen to them non blind to get an idea of how they supposedly sound, then make them listen to them blind and have they try to pick out which amp is playing, or make them listen blind but give each amp a number so they can associate a number with a sound characteristic and have them pick out each amp blind


I would pick the most distinct amp from each category (low/mid/high/ultra?) based on the initial results then have both blind and non-blind tests. To add a bit of interest, pre-select which models you think will end up being used here to see how many do. Don't actually categorize the amps at any point during the entire test even though people familiar with the brands will be biased during the non-blind runs.



SkizeR said:


> 4) free brax amp challenge.. let them listen to all amps non-blind to get an idea of how they all sound, then have them pick out each and every amp blind. if they get them all right, they can walk away with the brax amp, no questions asked. if they can do this, this can pretty much put a nail in the coffin on the whole thing (so long as everything is set within tight tolerances)


The challenge is a fun and generous idea but I imagine you'll be out of time by this step. Maybe limit it to the top 3 testers who were best able to identify amps earlier.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> are you talking about them being able to see the amps whiel theyre playing? i was thinking about putting a curtain over them, but either way they wont be able to tell which one is playing. and although im sure andy wants nothing to do with this thread, ill send him a link to my post and ask for some help


yes, I know it's your intention to disguise which amp is playing at which time, but the group watching you fuss about with switches and a cardboard with a switchbox diagram and order sequences, will probably try to peek, even if they aren't being overt or obvious.

the non-conversational cues like body language, longer pauses for switching in the good amps, deference paid to quality, skimming through the steps for the cheap stuff, it's all psychological pitfalls at play.


you want to be invisible during the testing, behind a door if possible, certainly out of sight, if not out of ear shot.

when you say "amp 1" and a passage starts playing, there can be no telegraphing of the switching going on, the testers should expect you to duplicate tests, make tests where nothing is changed, redundant tests, etc. during the examination so that they are actually running blind, all the way...



I admit that dropping out a few amp entries right off based on a consensus that some "just don't sound as good" by the tester majority, sounds good but I would caution against it. I think people want to believe they are able to separate the wheat from the chaff and if you go along with their first observations, you might miss the most important end goal, and that is to see a low tier amp go all the way to the end with the richie rich version, and nobody can out it.

that's where I want the test to go, because I like underdogs and I like to see the upper crusties lamentation of their women as the cheap amps drive their enemies before them...

:laugh:


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> The selector module should always be numbered for reference and you'll need to change the amp positions on that for the blind runs. Doing this each time could be quite tedious so try to find a way to make it quick. Please share your wiring schematic to let everyone here share some tips.


Never mind this if you're controlling the amp selection while they just tell you when to switch.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I guess the speakers don't matter /?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I guess the speakers don't matter /?


where did anyone say that? i said im using a pair of Era PL24 bookshelf speakers which utilize eton drivers


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I know....

I was looking for others input on these. Either no one has heard these speakers, or no one has heard of these speakers and can't comment. I know one other person who had these and was selling them, but thats it. 

Do you have any others you can try out before your test? What other speakers have you listened to, and maybe like?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Those seem to be decent speakers but without a sub you're going to have people arguing that differences in amp performance from 20Hz-70Hz won't be detected.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Yes, so how is it a decent pair of speakers?
This being an SQ test for front 2ch I think, and its OK, but you should be able to play the speakers into the 70 and 60, even for such application, I would think. Plenty front drivers in this range and even lower with component 6x9 sets that perform incredibly well, and with car MFG sizes , getting a bit more in demand for 6x9 size.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I mean flat enough within their frequency response that coloration shouldn't be a real issue.

A sub isn't even necessary, some neutral full range towers would be good. If none are available to borrow or rent, maybe buy some with a return policy?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Catalyx said:


> A sub isn't even necessary, some neutral full range towers would be good.


That is what I was thinking. Of course he has to consider how important it maybe in the mix he is dealing with, but for me, it would be paramount.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

What other home speakers have listened to Skizer? Maybe get your hands on a set that you really liked in the full range/?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

speakers are a control.

as long as the speakers do not present a load that somehow benefits one amplifier over another during the test, it should not be a factor and the concerns about 70 hz and below sound quality are not an indication that other speakers should be used.


the control will suffice to display differences among amplifiers. I could charge that with the condition that below 70 hz is where the most meaningful differences between amplifiers is likely to be observed but we aren't really trying to force back electromotive forces to destabilize the amp's output banks, are we?

it's just to see if there are audible differences in these amps over the music-containing spectrum and bookshelves that can do 70 hz on up are good enough for that duty, since all the amplifiers will have the same shot at making them sing.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I agree they will be fine as a control and was only suggesting full range to help reduce potential criticisms. I think any differences will be predominately detected in the midbass to upper midrange bands.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I think they're more than ok as a control for this. That being said, I planned on covering 70 and under with a sub with very low power. Think this is a good or bad idea?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

If the sub is powered by the amp being tested, using a crossover that doesn't display any dips in the resistance I don't see why not, since it's part of the control and will be equally hard or easy on all the amps.


but, I suppose it could introduce a harder load to drive and some of the amps that are designed for reactive load competency, will present a loaded result that was not the intended goal for the test.

As a way to throw in a ringer, the amps that are less robust in the chops, will audibly distort and you'll have some dividing ground you wouldn't have had otherwise...


but is it representative of the use of an amplifier?

should we not hook up all these amplifiers to an actual mixed-mono load where a bridged sub is in circuit, since that is a selling point of most of the car amps on the market today?

Then again, what one person prefers in their capacity for bass, may be different from the group and a subwoofer being added to the system could help differentiate which amps sound better with a low frequency load coupled to the high end of the bookshelves.

Like, an Adcom is supposed to be unusually capable of driving any speaker with low watts, while some of these Chinese sweat shop models being tested will move their little protection circuits into prevent defense mode, and their low watt sound will take a crap compared to the Adcom.

that would be another way to go about the test, I guess.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Yes, I guess we all somehow understood theat the speakers maybe fine, yet mention it to cover bases, and to rule anything out 


So if I may ask..what is the objective of this test again? This might be critical, as a few suggestions were made on having multiple choice like questions and 1 fill in...which I think would be very helpful.

I think if you have 10-20 different characteristics and they can circle some in a systematic way, you can "force" the selections to help differencient from differences that are easily tunable to the possible wide or different way of describing the sound, and it being a characteristic that is simply a better clarity....something that is inherent about the amp. Does this make sense? 

Because I don't think anyone is in denial about amps sounding different...they do, but there are things that are expected to be tuned, but there maybe other characteristics that are beyond the description of words like... flat, held back, warm, bright, missing in some range, etc. 

Clarity, detailed, full, plenty power (this will be interesting, but I think you mentioned will be checking the power in/out), separation....other descriptions that can help an amp with a better starting point, or a better difference?.

Hope this makes sense...perhaps someone can make more sense from it /?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

That was what I meant in my earlier post about the feedback forms having choices to select from to help the testers analyze the sound. To help Skizer I think we could all come up with a nice list of possible criteria and ways to structure the questions.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

yes, I was referring to your post.. I would agree


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i guess i can do feedback forms for the non blind testing and blind testing and see if they match up


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Quite honestly, I think you should do a blind testing first.

Why? Because I think we all know people are going to want to convince themselves the higher end amps sound better and try detect a tonal difference with any of these higher-end amps (weather or not this difference is more/less pleasing to one's ear) so they can correctly ID it/them time and time again. 

So, I say do the blind test first, let each pick their favorite and least favorite as well as explain why. 

Then, by all means, let them test knowing which amp is being used and pick their favorite and least favorite, then see if they match. 

After that, go for the testing to see if they can ID which amp is being used.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Quite honestly, I think you should do a blind testing first.
> 
> Why? Because I think we all know people are going to want to convince themselves the higher end amps sound better and try detect a tonal difference with any of these higher-end amps (weather or not this difference is more/less pleasing to one's ear) so they can correctly ID it/them time and time again.
> 
> ...


thats actually not a bad idea. but my whole idea with non blind first is because what if for some reason the amps all sound the same, or they all sound very very close. like practically indistinguishable. i was thinking that if they notice that, they will automatically say "oh yeah these sound the same, yadi yadi yaa" because they saw before hand that they couldnt hear, or could hardly hear a difference. if i do non blind first, we can probably see the effects of psycho acoustics. if we do blind first, it will just make them know that they dont sound drastically different (if thats the case) therefor we wont see the effects of psycho acoustics. get what im saying? im not good at explaining things lol


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cajunner said:


> If the sub is powered by the amp being tested, using a crossover that doesn't display any dips in the resistance I don't see why not, since it's part of the control and will be equally hard or easy on all the amps.
> 
> 
> but, I suppose it could introduce a harder load to drive and some of the amps that are designed for reactive load competency, will present a loaded result that was not the intended goal for the test.
> ...


What about doing the opposite? What is the speaker type that is considered "the most difficult to drive"? 

My reasonning? If all amps of the same power should sound the same, then it should drive that kind of speaker in the same way... right? 

Kelvin 

Edited: quoted the wrong post lol


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> thats actually not a bad idea. but my whole idea with non blind first is because what if for some reason the amps all sound the same, or they all sound very very close. like practically indistinguishable. i was thinking that if they notice that, they will automatically say "oh yeah these sound the same, yadi yadi yaa" because they saw before hand that they couldnt hear, or could hardly hear a difference. if i do non blind first, we can probably see the effects of psycho acoustics. if we do blind first, it will just make them know that they dont sound drastically different (if thats the case) therefor we wont see the effects of psycho acoustics. get what im saying? im not good at explaining things lol


I understand and agree with this reasoning because if the testers hear differences in the non-blind they'll project their psychoacoustic impressions onto the blind amp auditions and focus on guessing which ones they are. If the differences are actually audible then there should be a decent success rate for the people with discerning ears but if the amps actually sound the same then the results will only be as accurate as random guessing.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> What about doing the opposite? What is the speaker type that is considered "the most difficult to drive"?
> 
> My reasonning? If all amps of the same power should sound the same, then it should drive that kind of speaker in the same way... right?


Opposite of what?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I too think Weigel21 has a strong point I wouldn't risk


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Quite honestly, I think you should do a blind testing first.
> 
> Why? Because I think we all know people are going to want to convince themselves the higher end amps sound better and try detect a tonal difference with any of these higher-end amps (weather or not this difference is more/less pleasing to one's ear) so they can correctly ID it/them time and time again.
> 
> ...


I think this is a very good idea.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Quite honestly, I think you should do a blind testing first.
> 
> Why? Because I think we all know people are going to want to convince themselves the higher end amps sound better and try detect a tonal difference with any of these higher-end amps (weather or not this difference is more/less pleasing to one's ear) so they can correctly ID it/them time and time again.
> 
> ...


Blind first assumes the amps will sound different and would be more useful if determining which are "best" is important. Non-blind first assumes it's likely no differences will be heard and reveals more about psychoacoustic effects.

This is a great example of how tests can be subtly biased by the opinions of the people giving them.

Which method are you going to use Skizer?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

These are easy to drive 6Ohm speakers. not very efficient and can take a lot of power.
good amplifier will make them shine, bad one will underpower them. 
In any case all amplifiers will be set to make the same power, I don`t see a problem here if that plan hold true.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Catalyx said:


> That was what I meant in my earlier post about the feedback forms having choices to select from to help the testers analyze the sound. To help Skizer I think we could all come up with a nice list of possible criteria and ways to structure the questions.


a few reviews from entries in The Absolute Sound audio magazines, should provide plenty of adjectives and descriptors that may, or may not represent what is being heard by the listening panel.


What I'd like to see is no communication or consensus between listeners as the passage plays, so that each participant is forced to circle exactly what they interpret, and not form small pockets of answers that were colluded or reached by fiat.


This would naturally cause some listeners to balk, if they have to rely on their own ears and their answers aren't anonymous to the group, as it would show up on the results if one person just is hearing completely different results than the rest, which I think would not only be personally alarming but interesting in that it would prove that we do hear differently and maybe not just because somebody's ear wax plug is thicker than the rest...


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

cajunner said:


> a few reviews from entries in The Absolute Sound audio magazines, should provide plenty of adjectives and descriptors that may, or may not represent what is being heard by the listening panel.


There are oodles of slick adjectives to use, but I think criteria can be placed into these basic categories:

Stereo Imaging / Staging
Dynamics / Headroom
Definition / Clarity
Tonality
Noise Floor Level




cajunner said:


> What I'd like to see is no communication or consensus between listeners as the passage plays, so that each participant is forced to circle exactly what they interpret, and not form small pockets of answers that were colluded or reached by fiat.
> 
> This would naturally cause some listeners to balk, if they have to rely on their own ears and their answers aren't anonymous to the group, as it would show up on the results if one person just is hearing completely different results than the rest, which I think would not only be personally alarming but interesting in that it would prove that we do hear differently and maybe not just because somebody's ear wax plug is thicker than the rest...


Yeah, I said in my post earlier today that the testers should review amps by themselves then afterward go into a room separate from the people waiting for their turn without speaking to any of them. Skizer can ask the finished testers not to discuss their impressions amongst themselves to minimize any effect but that is no guarantee so isolating them from the others should suffice.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

How about half of the testers doing the blind test first and half to the non-blind test first?


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Draw names out of a hat to select which tester do which test first.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> How about half of the testers doing the blind test first and half to the non-blind test first?


not a bad idea also.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Speakers- They matter to a degree. You want something that can play low enough and high enough effectively. I would not use a sub with the test speakers. Just make sure they can play low enough for the test material being used. This is why I used a pair of larger electrostatic floor standing speakers with good, broad frequency response. In addition, they need to be appropriate for the size of the space they'll be playing in. Large room, bookshelves may not be the best choice, but in a smaller room they may be fine.



You're welcome to use the same method I used when doing my tests. It worked out well, kept things very consistent, and helped move the day along- Remember, there's a lot of amps and testing to go through.

I would highly recommend doing simple blind AX tests for the blind portion. The more material you try to have the testers remember to make the comparison, they less accurate it will be. For example, if you try to have them listen to multiple amps, then play one blind and make them try to guess which one it is, your making the comparison much more difficult. 
You pick out an amplifier to use as the reference, and allow your testers to pick out an amplifier they want to match it up against. You play a sample from your reference amplifier (A) and then a sample from the unknown (X) amplifier which will either be your reference amplifier, or the one they picked. The testers then only need to determine if the what they are listening to in the (X) unknown sample is the SAME as the reference amp, or DIFFERENT.


Here was the text from my sheet that I gave to the testing group:

_In these evaluations, we will use 2 amplifiers – an “A” and a second for comparison. The same 30-45 second clip will be played on amplifier A, then on the unidentified amplifier X. Amplifier X will be either amplifier A or the second different amplifier for each Trial in a group. Testers will listen to the sample on A and then determine if amplifier “X” is a different amplifier or actually the same amplifier A being played. Select a choice of X being the SAME amplifier as A, or different in a series of 10 trials per group of amplifier._




_Is “X” the same as amplifier A or different? (circle your selection for each of the ten trials per group)_




_Group1_
_Trial 1 Same Different_
_Trial 2 Same Different_
_Trial 3 Same Different_
_Trial 4 Same Different_
_Trial 5 Same Different_
_Trial 6 Same Different_
_Trial 7 Same Different_
_Trial 8 Same Different_
_Trial 9 Same Different_
_Trial 10 Same Different
_


The testers were then presented with 10 samples (trials), one at a time where I'd play a 30 second reference amplifier clip, and then a 30 second (X) unknown amplifier clip and they had to circle if the second clip was the same amplifier playing or different. Easy peasy.

You can do this with multiple amplifier match-ups comparing whichever models you want against each other and provide more significant results.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

25 pages and he's still thinking......


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> 25 pages and he's still thinking......
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


He want to set his mind once and for all.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> 25 pages and he's still thinking......
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


so make a suggestion lol. most of this was trying to get supplies and amps for the test. i have had basic ideas the whole time, i just need to find out which way would be the best now


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> so make a suggestion lol. most of this was trying to get supplies and amps for the test. i have had basic ideas the whole time, i just need to find out which way would be the best now


It's already been done before on DIYMA about 2-3 years ago with data provided by the judges.
I don't remember the name of the thread but maybe Erin does.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Im worried that threatening to play the same amp twice makes this more of a test of the testers rather than testing the amps. Don't make it a game. Rather than listening for which is better they end up trying to figure out if it's the same. Maybe I'm misunderstanding here.

I say do an A vs B test. Give 4 options:
- amps are indistinguishable
- A sounds better than B
- B sounds better than A
- amps sound different but neither sounds better

Then do it college basketball bracket style.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> It's already been done before on DIYMA about 2-3 years ago with data provided by the judges.
> I don't remember the name of the thread but maybe Erin does.
> 
> 
> ...


im doubting erin would have loaned me one of his brand new amps if he was sure that any previous test had any real merit. not like this will, but im trying to make it as solid as possible.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Captain obvious was the responsible for that I thought?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> Im worried that threatening to play the same amp twice makes this more of a test of the testers rather than testing the amps. Don't make it a game. Rather than listening for which is better they end up trying to figure out if it's the same. Maybe I'm misunderstanding here.
> 
> I say do an A vs B test. Give 4 options:
> - amps are indistinguishable
> ...


then its just subjective. this idea stemmed from an argument on here that was "all amps sound exactly the same" vs "all amps sound very different". so the point of this was to see if they sound the same or different. if they sound different, then seeing which ones sound the best are just a bonus, which will be easy as per your bracket idea


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Captain obvious was the responsible for that I thought?


yes, but his was mostly just a subjective test on the sound characteristics of amps from what i remember


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> yes, but his was mostly just a subjective test on the sound characteristics of amps from what i remember


Well I think to a point, there's no difference between what he did and what you're doing. Just different methods with the ability to deduce the same end answer.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

When I "tested" (listened to) 6 or so home amps, at least 2 were from the same maker, Denon and Marantz, and they still sounded noticeably/for anyone different. With different components from different boards and makers and such, I'm pretty sure it will be different. Different doesn't mean SQ better. Since there are these few boards on amps used, it would have been interesting to have a Taramps amp in the mix, as they are Brazilian made. and supposed to be with different circuitry.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> yes, but his was mostly just a subjective test on the sound characteristics of amps from what i remember


No.

It was conducted as a proper BLIND comparison. I also included a subjective non-blind portion for fun.




SkizeR said:


> im doubting erin would have loaned me one of his brand new amps if he was sure that* any previous test had any real merit.* not like this will, but im trying to make it as solid as possible.



Wow, that burns a little.

But you don't even know what tests I performed and how?





.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Ive read the other test and it was dumb. Nobody heard the same thing


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> No.
> 
> It was conducted as a proper BLIND comparison. I also included a subjective non-blind portion for fun.
> 
> ...



sorry, i was just going off what others were saying :/

i remember reading it a while ago but havent looked at it since. but i do remember that the results between different testers were different.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

DDfusion said:


> Ive read the other test and it was dumb. Nobody heard the same thing



Did you view the AX tetsing results or just read the non-blind/blind subjective portion?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Ive read the other test and it was dumb. Nobody heard the same thing


That is exactly what going to happen. why is it dumb? 
I think it`s too much asking bunch of bassheads to describe the sound.
They are too concern to be called audiophools.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Ive read the other test and it was dumb. Nobody heard the same thing


So how is that a dumb test? Proves a lot actually.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Blind/non blind only I think. It was a long time ago.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> That is exactly what going to happen. why is it dumb?
> I think it`s too much asking bunch of bassheads to describe the sound.
> They are too concern to be called audiophools.


What makes you so special to talk down to other audiophiles?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

gckless said:


> So how is that a dumb test? Proves a lot actually.


It don't when one person would say a amp sounded warm and the other would say dull


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

So that it's clear what was done...

Here's the format and procedure I ran through.



_The event began with an informal and brief introduction and to explain what we’d be doing over the next few hours. Before any actual demoing was done, it was important to ensure that all of the amplifiers were set properly for equal output voltage. With two testers as assistants, we tested each amplifier individually and set the gains to +/- 0.03v. We played some music through the speakers and then each tester was assigned a random tester number and given an initial setup/sign off sheet.

All testers checked off “Agree” to the two questions and none had criticisms in the comments section regarding any other conditions relating to the testing environment.
Next, I started off with *non-blind listening evaluations* of each of the 8 amplifiers used in the tests. I told the testers which amplifier was being played and a little about it. The testers were given a sheet to provide their comments on each of the amps sampled. 

In an effort to avoid “listener fatigue”, we took a break preceding each of the series of tests. Next up, I provided the testers with a new sheet and proceeded with *blind* listening evaluations on each of the 8 amplifiers. The testers were again asked to provide their comments on each of the amplifiers they sampled, this time not knowing which was being played.

Following another break, I provided a new sheet for a different comparison. In this final series of evaluations, *I conducted blind “AX” tests.* These tests are designed to provide a sample (reference) of amplifier A, and then an unknown “X” sample. The X sample can be either A again, or a different amplifier. The method is performed as such: In a series of 10 samples, the reference amplifier A is announced and played with a 30 second clip, followed by the X amplifier announced and played with a 30 second clip, followed by A, then x and so forth until the answers of all 10 samples are recorded by the testers. The testers were asked to pick which amplifiers they wanted to use as the reference A amplifier in each of 6 groups of tests. I selected which amplifier would be paired up as the “different” amplifier in the comparisons for each group.
(In these evaluations, we will use 2 amplifiers – an “A” and a second for comparison. The same 30-45 second clip will be played on amplifier A, then the unidentified amplifier X. Amplifier X will be either amplifier A or the second different amplifier for each Trial in a group. Testers will listen to the sample on A and then determine if amplifier “X” is a different amplifier or actually the same amplifier A being played. Select a choice of X being the SAME amplifier as A, or different in a series of 10 trials per group of amplifier.)

In closing, the testers were given a post-testing exit review to get feedback on the testing procedures, equipment, environment and proctoring after having gone through the full testing gamut.
_


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> It don't when one person would say a amp sounded warm and the other would say dull


but what if warm is dull do someone? i personally do think too "warm" is kinda dull.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

That is an interestingly important point which I was posted about a number of pages ago. Who are the testers?

I have had about 10 people listen to speakers and such among friends, and only 2 of them was able to make any objective feedback, which of one was because he knows a brand and liked it just for that :-/.

There are far and few people that can identify and objectively give feedback on certain things like sound, visual balance, and other forms of our senses. Kind of strange.


Maybe listing off the variables you are targeting would also help SkizeR...lots of sheeat to deal with with lots of good points, and if you can list and then tackle, it will help with spinnin the wheels too much.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Results with info attached. If all you read was the subjective/initial portions than I could see where you're coming from. But the real meat of the testing was the Blind AX group testing. Again, the subjective blind/non blind stuff at the beginning was for fun and to give an idea of how things change simply from the standpoint of changing the environment from non-blind to blind.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> It don't when one person would say a amp sounded warm and the other would say dull


Sure as hell does. Proves that all people don't hear the same things. Proves that what sounds good to one person may not to another. Proves that maybe not everyone knows what they're talking about. Proves that maybe people should think and experience for themselves rather than take other people's word as gospel. Does your example prove much about the amps themselves? Not really. But there's still much to be learned.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> Results with info attached. If all you read was the subjective/initial portions than I could see where you're coming from. But the real meat of the testing was the Blind AX group testing.


thanks. i will read this when i get off work. and that is probably what i remember from it. i was so excited that a zapco amp was in it and i looked at what people thought of it and the results were different from all of them and i was like "meh" lol


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Read the results. The same amp sounded different non blind to blind. That's my point


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> What makes you so special to talk down to other audiophiles?


 You don`t get sarcasm, obviously.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I fail at sarcasm actually if I don't have much experience with the person giving it.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Read the results. The same amp sounded different non blind to blind. That's my point


 that is exactly correct because they are different.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> that is exactly correct because they are different.


Same amp Vic
Non blind- amp has great vocals
blind- amp had muddy vocals


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> I fail at sarcasm actually if I don't have much experience with the person giving it.


 OK is this  you think might help?


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> thanks. i will read this when i get off work. and that is probably what i remember from it. i was so excited that a zapco amp was in it and i looked at what people thought of it and the results were different from all of them and i was like "meh" lol



I can understand that. Gckless makes a good point above.

Don't get caught up in the subjective thoughts because the only thing left is what we can hear and not hear after we've removed the outside influences, biases and environmental factors from the equation and force the comparison to be made on the merit of the 'sound' of the devices only. That's why I say the Blind AX tests are the real meat of the previous testing and what you should really be looking at as far as 'results' or something to take away from the experiment.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> OK is this  you think might help?


Yes yes it does. Thank you


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Same amp Vic
> Non blind- amp has great vocals
> blind- amp had muddy vocals


It has been a study that conclude listening to music not suppose to be in the dark. Study was maybe 70 years old. 
Ever been in symphony hall? usually classic performed in well lit room.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> I can understand that. Gckless makes a good point above.
> 
> Don't get caught up in the subjective thoughts because the only thing left is what we can hear and not hear after we've removed the outside influences, biases and environmental factors from the equation and force the comparison to be made on the merit of the 'sound' of the devices only. That's why I say the Blind AX tests are the real meat of the previous testing and what you should really be looking at as far as 'results' or something to take away from the experiment.


gotcha. ok, so i think im starting to lean towards doing this test first., then the other ones i proposed


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Catalyx said:


> Opposite of what?


Damn... good catch... 

I quoted/pressed the "quote button" on the wrong post. 
Edited now  Meant to reply after Caj's post. 

Kelvin


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

DDfusion said:


> Read the results. The same amp sounded different non blind to blind. That's my point



That's all part of the experiment. You need to understand that when you are trying to make a comparison between two amplifiers based on their *sound *that you need to eliminate the other variables not related to their sound that will affect the comparison. That portion of the testing clearly highlights that very point. Because people thought the amplifiers sounded different when they *knew* which one was playing vs when they didn't means that outside influences apart from just the sound of the amplifiers were causing them to feel they heard differences.

This is why doing properly controlled blind testing is so important when you are trying to make a valid and meaningful comparison based on the sound of the amplifiers alone.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

DDfusion said:


> Ive read the other test and it was dumb. Nobody heard the same thing


What do you expect?
That's real life and highly likely the same results Skizr will get cuz once again...........that's real life.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I would do the blind test first. So when they see the name they will change the results


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> I would do the blind test first. So when they see the name they will change the results


i would think they wouldnt change the results out of fear of looking dumb. if you do non blind first, they can say their impressions, then they kinda prove it next in the blind test


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

They won't know which amp is which at that point


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> im doubting erin would have loaned me one of his brand new amps if he was sure that any previous test had any real merit. not like this will, but im trying to make it as solid as possible.


FWIW, I think Steve's test is the single best attempt at _*any *_'shootout' on this forum.

You'd be wise to heed his advice and learn from his experience with his own test...


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

this is why I believe it would be prudent to look closely at how these $$$ R&D departments ran their tests, because they've already gone through and vetted the best ways to determine differences.

JBL had one recently about headphone quality and what people were looking for and they found that after a little education on what the sound, that they prefer, "sounds" like, there was a bigger consensus and most people wanted the same things.


This leads to being able to develop a product that will satisfy the largest portion of the population, even those without their golden ears attached.


If we were to try to use this information, we could find out what the choices were in describing the "better" sounding headphone qualities, and extrapolate that into the questionnaire for the amp test.

This might not seem useful to use the same adjectives or modifiers that we determine speaker qualities, but isn't it also related to sound?

And aren't we really in a dearth of no-man's land when it comes to ways to describe amp sounds?

clinical, warm, fuzzy, detailed.

cold, sterile, smooth, clean, clear?

I mean, if you have a palette of 10 colors, you can do a lot of painting that 3 colors won't get on very well...

so I would suggest going back to those trials that the big money guys already spent their time and trouble creating and just pilfer that knowledge, suck it out like a well-grilled piece of marrow in a plate of osso buco...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> FWIW, I think Steve's test is the single best attempt at _*any *_'shootout' on this forum.
> 
> You'd be wise to heed his advice and learn from his experience with his own test...


i know that. but i dont remember most of it and what i did remember (which happened to be the subjective results), they results are all over the place. hes actually helping me out with this right now. i think i have everything figured out for how im going to do this. now just gotta set it all up, and do it. its going to be tough since not everyone can make it on one single day, so im going to be doing it a few times, but the exact same way each time. everything will be recorded so everyone can see for themselves if something was done wrong. i also realize that this test will have no merit at all, but will help people get an idea


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> They won't know which amp is which at that point


That point is about 6 seconds. longer then that and there is no memory left.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> i also realize that this test will have no merit at all, but will help people get an idea


don't sell yourself short.

even some of the most meticulous, methodically controlled testing results in a 50/50 test result.

but since we are all believing that high dollar means high quality, a 50/50 would smash that hypothesis based on marketing and audiophile desire, into little bitty pieces.

and that would have merit...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> don't sell yourself short.
> 
> even some of the most meticulous, methodically controlled testing results in a 50/50 test result.
> 
> ...


speaking of smashing hypothesis to pieces, thats why im doing the "brax amp challenge".. if i can get all of the levels set perfectly, and have everything else set up perfectly, and someone can identify ALL amps when played blindly, that would literally destroy the whole 'all amps sound the same" argument, and may even be enough to say they make a reasonable difference. finding that to be true in my test if i know theres no outside variables swaying the outcome would make giving an amp away 100% worth it to me.

and selling yourself short just makes it easier and you tend to be more realistic. before the test even goes down, i need everyone to know that what ever happens, might mean something, and it might mean literally nothing. the only way you will truly know is if your here, or if you do it yourself. NOTHING about this test will write stone tablets, and im fully aware of that, and i need everyone else to be aware of that


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Have you posted the list of amps to be tested yet?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Have you posted the list of amps to be tested yet?
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


i posted pictures..

pyle PLMRA430BT (gotta throw in a garbage one)
PPI 900.4
NVX JAD800.4
Butler tube amp
Phoenix Gold M class
eclipse 4 channel (forget the model number)
mosconi a class
Zapco dc 360.4
brax x2000
sinfoni shadow
Linear power d550 (or something like that, cant remember exactly), modified from the factory
boston 4 channel (cant remember model number)
soundstream reference
JL HD
and possibly a couple others


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I could be a bookie. which one gonna win?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

my one concern/question would be the power ratings. you're going to have to set the level to match that of the least output. for example, if one amp is rated at 100x2 @ 4 ohm and all others do above that, every amp would need to be set up to provide that same output. So then it would seem there's a potential advantage to the amps with the higher output potential. That's something that may or may not crop up in the test results... it definitely would be interesting to see if it correlates. But, again, on the face, it's not an apples to apples.


Caveat 1: The above assumes that the rated power is indeed max unclipped signal. which really needs it's own verification as well. 
Caveat 1a: OTOH, you could set all amps up to provide a given voltage equal to the power rating discussed above at a given load and if there are any amps which are overrated, they simply have to carry the brunt of their dishonest marketing. 
Caveat 2: some amps will not provide the same response for a given load. So, the tone used to set the output voltage should be something in the middle: 1khz seems reasonable. 
Caveat 2a: Of course, then there's the argument to be made that you aren't providing the same spectrum the speakers. To which you say "of course, but that's part of the test itself". SPL matching is not a good idea with this kind of test as you could very well exceed the limitations, unless it somehow is covered via Caveat 1a.


this kind of thing isn't an easy task and can be dissected any number of ways. I literally typed that up on the fly and I didn't go out of my way to think of issues that may be less obvious. With effort, I'm sure there are going to be numerous (legitimate) caveats that others can think up.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

luckily, the caveat most important, may be caveat emptor.

I would want the under-performing Pyle that can't do a clean 50W RMS/ch to clip, and show why it sounds worse than the amp before or after it that can do unclipped power. This is one of the only times that correlation to test results will validate the testing, since most of the time it's going to be a bunch of close, subjective, hopefully meaningful differences.

If the amp that has 6 db of headroom based on a 25W/ch RMS test ceiling, proves to sound more dynamic and alive due to the limitless, bottomless pool of watts available for musical peaks, I want that amp to truck right over those Class D wannabe's, that have a ceiling that looks like glass instead of rubber...

I'm hoping for some real differences to be discovered here, even if subjective and scientifically unreliable. Because good conjecture is no match for even badly executed blind tests.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> my one concern/question would be the power ratings. you're going to have to set the level to match that of the least output. for example, if one amp is rated at 100x2 @ 4 ohm and all others do above that, every amp would need to be set up to provide that same output. So then it would seem there's a potential advantage to the amps with the higher output potential. That's something that may or may not crop up in the test results... it definitely would be interesting to see if it correlates. But, again, on the face, it's not an apples to apples.
> 
> 
> Caveat 1: The above assumes that the rated power is indeed max unclipped signal. which really needs it's own verification as well.
> ...


i completely agree. my plan was to match all to the lowest powered amp, which is probably the butler. i talked to andy and he said to just match them within a hundredth of a volt. im planning on doing that, and then verifying that they are playing at the same levels with mic


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> luckily, the caveat most important, may be caveat emptor.
> 
> I would want the under-performing Pyle that can't do a clean 50W RMS/ch to clip, and show why it sounds worse than the amp before or after it that can do unclipped power. This is one of the only times that correlation to test results will validate the testing, since most of the time it's going to be a bunch of close, subjective, hopefully meaningful differences.
> 
> ...


i actually think it can do about 80 watts per channel or so. its a big amp "rated" for 1000 watts.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

If you can do this in a timely manner (soon) I would consider allowing this one to be the other you speak of.




Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> i actually think it can do about 80 watts per channel or so. its a big amp "rated" for 1000 watts.


well, we'll hope it outs itself, then...



would be embarrassing to get the BRAX subjective test ratings on Pyle innards, even I would have to cringe a little there...


and here's a thought:


all the times I've heard or seen commentary about audiophile goods, it's almost always about what are seen as audiophile quality merchandise.

maybe the Pyle is "warm, extremely smooth, very detailed, not grainy at all" and the BRAX is "clinical, perfect, almost cool character, precise, low background" and someone who likes "warm, smooth" is actually going to prefer the amp with 1/15th the street price.


I mean, do we laugh at ourselves, do we play tickle-me-elmo, or what?


Because I've been exposed to a lifetime of "reviews, tests, shootouts, comparison modeling" and anecdotal reference of 'the reference' such that, I am not sure if I can accept results that abrade away the consensus I've formed in my mind over all these years.


It would be pretty cool if we could separate the circuits from the builds, like putting in high quality parts in the Pyle amp that would reduce the amount of variance so that we were hearing the amp designer's circuit more than the poor bean counter's choice of parts.

I really believe that there are examples of exemplary circuit design languishing in some of these cheaply fitted, mass market produced flea market specials.

Not that it matters, I guess, if the only way to get to that amp design is always shrouded in a cloak of rags and parts house reject bins for parts.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like this amp test to show more, like differences between amp topologies and why the marketing dept. of these companies go through the trouble of explaining.


Like I'd want to have that new amp with the class D outputs but using the AB feedback loop, in this test...


----------



## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> Speakers- They matter to a degree. You want something that can play low enough and high enough effectively. I would not use a sub with the test speakers. Just make sure they can play low enough for the test material being used. This is why I used a pair of larger electrostatic floor standing speakers with good, broad frequency response. In addition, they need to be appropriate for the size of the space they'll be playing in. Large room, bookshelves may not be the best choice, but in a smaller room they may be fine.


I agree about not using the sub, keep it simple and only drive a pair of speakers with the amps. The low end will roll off below 70Hz but there'll still be enough there for a control.

I'm curious about the physical layout of the testing area, including room size. Skizer, can you provide a general description of what it'll look like?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> I agree about not using the sub, keep it simple and only drive a pair of speakers with the amps. The low end will roll off below 70Hz but there'll still be enough there for a control.
> 
> I'm curious about the physical layout of the testing area, including room size. Skizer, can you provide a general description of what it'll look like?


let me go get a picture and dimentions. id say its a medium sized room. its not small like a bedroom, but its certainly not big like some of this hifi rooms i see.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

little messy right now.. room is 25 feet long, 15 feet wide, and 8 feet high. and before anyone asks.. yes, those are dinosaurs running from an explosion on that little flag.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

vwdave said:


> Im worried that threatening to play the same amp twice makes this more of a test of the testers rather than testing the amps. Don't make it a game. Rather than listening for which is better they end up trying to figure out if it's the same.


If the test was a subjective challenge to find the best then it wouldn't make sense to use the AX or ABX method but the point is establishing whether there is a real difference in how amps sound. 

To avoid testing the same basic things that were covered in the one run by captainobvious, other methods should be used. For instance, he would play a clip on one amp then repeat the clip on the other but Skizer wants to switch between them instantly.

I read the full results PDF but am still not sure if the people took each test alone or in a group. I strongly suggest everyone should be isolated while listening to prevent them influencing each other. There's also an issue with widely differing head positions and audio reflections off bodies in a group.

I know having individual test runs will add a lot of time but it really is worth the increased accuracy. I remember reading Skizer only has 7 people, some of who can't make it August 30th, so it should be manageable if begun early enough in the day.

Another change from the captainobvious test should be to use ABX with only one reference amp. That will save time and let the listeners focus on finding differences between amps, kmowing there are defintely two rather than wondering if it's the same.

I'm not sure what amp is best to use for the reference, probably a middle of the road model that is generally considered to have a neutral character so it isn't easily identified when constantly compared to the others.

The ABX should be done first to focus purely on sound with the testers only having to choose if they detect differences. This will help them learn to critically listen without the pressure of needing to articulate what they hear.

The last major change from captainobvious is to use a set of criteria options for people to select from on the feedback sheets. This will allow them to focus on listening rather than writing and be a huge help for comparing results.

Here are the steps I recommend, though the times and other details could be tweaked a bit:

*1. Blind ABX Test*

Play 15 secs of a song with reference amp A, the next 15 secs with amp B, then let the tester instantly select between the two for another 30 secs. If they can't detect any difference then move on to the next B amp, otherwise play 30 secs on amp X and have them guess if it's A or B.

The testers hand in their answer sheets which you tally up to see which amps were able to be identified more often. Use the most distinct third of the amps plus the reference for the next step to save time, reduce listener fatigue and ignore the amps too similar to provide significant results.

(I'm not sure how you keep everyone entertained while they're waiting for each person to finish but it probably shouldn't involve listening to other speakers.)

*2. Blind Subjective Test*

Assign the amps numbers and give the testers a sheet of criteria to describe the sound of each, choose an overall score from 1 to 5 and provide one line for optional open ended impressions. Play 1 min of a track chosen by them from a small selection of songs representing different genres. Give them an additional 30 secs to finish writing and clear their ears then move on to the next amp until done then start over with the non-blind run.

*3. Non-Blind Subjective Test*

Same as the blind, but change the order of the amps and give them new sheets with the amps listed by name and a field to guess which number they were in the blind run.

(Or maybe change this to non-blind first or only half the testers do it in reverse.)

*4. Brax Challenge*

I would only use the top half most distinct amps for this non-blind/blind test because remembering the sonic signature of 13-15 is simply beyond human capabilities. I believe you are in very little risk of losing it because some people won't want to do this part and the rest will still get at least one or two wrong even if they have true golden ears. For the test methods, I suggest the same as before but without description sheets and maybe more playback time.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> little messy right now.. room is 25 feet long, 15 feet wide, and 8 feet high. and before anyone asks.. yes, those are dinosaurs running from an explosion on that little flag.


That is some cat dedication!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> That is some cat dedication!


cat dedication?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> cat dedication?


I think he's referring to your carpeted columns.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Looks like proverbial mom`s basement.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Catalyx said:


> I think he's referring to your carpeted columns.


carpeted columns kinda nice touch, I like it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ohhhhh, yeah my cat used to go crazy on them until he got his front claws removed. RIP you poor bastard lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Looks like proverbial mom`s basement.


then you should see the rest of the house. its sickening lol. it has "suburban mom" plastered all over the place. it actually extremely annoying to even look at for me, let alone listen to her god damn "country" music through her bluetooth sonos system. ughhhhhh


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

So where in the room are you going to set up the amps and listening booth?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> So where in the room are you going to set up the amps and listening booth?


if you look on the far side of the room, theres a table with some boxes on it. amps will go on there, and maybe a few under it if they dont all fit, and then speakers on a dresser type thing in front of that facing the couch


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> if you look on the far side of the room, theres a table with some boxes on it. amps will go on there, and maybe a few under it if they dont all fit, and then speakers on a dresser type thing in front of that facing the couch


Cool, how many people are confirmed for Sunday?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Cool, how many people are confirmed for Sunday?


i think 5. but then i have others coming other days. everyone is just to busy to find a common day to get everyone in the area in one place at one time


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I recommend setting speakers at exact middle height of the room.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> i think 5. but then i have others coming other days. everyone is just to busy to find a common day to get everyone in the area in one place at one time


That'll help keep the test from going on too long. Assuming 15 amps and 5 people, just the music playback time for the first three steps I suggested would be 2.5 hours. I'd guess there be at least 2 more hours involved so 4.5 plus however long the Brax challenge takes.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> I recommend setting speakers at exact middle height of the room.


so on the table, or a bit raised, should be perfect


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> so on the table, or a bit raised, should be perfect


these speakers will benefit from low end extension middle room placement will provide. and as far away from side walls as well.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> these speakers will benefit from low end extension middle room placement will provide. and as far away from side walls as well.


What's the distance between the table and couch if you move it back to the carpeted column?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> What's the distance between the table and couch?


couch and table can be moved wherever


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

You should setup a podcast or something.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You should setup a podcast or something.


You mean a live video stream?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

do i have to? i get extremely awkward due to anxiety when im on video or being recorded lol. i can hardly talk on the phone to customers without stumbling over my words from it haha


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> do i have to? i get extremely awkward due to anxiety when im on video or being recorded lol. i can hardly talk on the phone to customers without stumbling over my words from it haha


 That would be a great opportunity to kick that anxiety . you don`t have to explain to the camera what is going on, just for us to watch. You are technologically advanced person you could do it.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah, and you can be the man behind the curtain most the time.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Catalyx said:


> Yeah, and you can be the man behind the curtain most the time.


Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!Do it!


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

So, what do you think of my test suggestions? Only a couple more days to nail this down.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> So, what do you think of my test suggestions? Only a couple more days to nail this down.


i have to go over them again. i was at work when this thread was getting a lot of responses earlier today and didnt have time to read all of them carefully.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> i have to go over them again. i was at work when this thread was getting a lot of responses earlier today and didnt have time to read all of them carefully.


Okay, I have some more ideas and am willing to help format review sheets if you want.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Okay, I have some more ideas and am willing to help format review sheets if you want.


post all ideas so i can read them and sit on them while i can. i got about two hours until i fall asleep lol


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> post all ideas so i can read them and sit on them while i can. i got about two hours until i fall asleep lol


Okay:

The ABX reference amp should be the Soundstream Reference, not just for the name but it's a solid quality class AB model that isn't known for any specific sound that I know of.

Create audio clips at the exact testing lengths and use 3 second fades in/out so people's ears don't have to react to sudden starts/stops.

The 90 second clip for the ABX should be the same song for everyone, something well recorded with full range and lots of dynamic content in a genre that won't irritate anyone.

The 1 minute clips for the blind/non-blind tests should also be high quality with revealing sonic characteristics. Probably best to ask everyone for their preferred genres and even specific songs beforehand to help select the pool for them to choose from.

The Brax challenge will be a bit more fair if you at least provide people with numbered lists and named lists of the amps with empty lines for making notes that they can keep for both tests.

I don't see any need to ask the listeners for their opinions on your testing methods like captainobvious did but they should be able to write some general feedback if desired.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Okay:
> 
> The ABX reference amp should be the Soundstream Reference, not just for the name but it's a solid quality class AB model that isn't known for any specific sound that I know of.
> 
> ...


i was thinking about using the sound stream as the reference a few days ago, but then i realized that its the most powerful amp of the bunch, so im not sure. maybe the eclipse?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> i was thinking about using the sound stream as the reference a few days ago, but then i realized that its the most powerful amp of the bunch, so im not sure. maybe the eclipse?


Yeah, I was also thinking of that or the Phoenix Gold.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Here are some descriptive terms, many of which are redundant synonyms so only the best should be used.

*Stereo Imaging / Staging*
Balanced
Open
Obscured
Smeared
Blurred
Compressed
Pinched
Live

*Dynamics / Headroom*
Strong
Punchy
Impactful
Commanding
Responsive
Fast
Slow
Sluggish

*Definition & Clarity*
Accurate
Defined
Detailed
Nuanced
Crisp
Coherent
Transparent
Pristine
Clean
Granular
Fuzzy
Distorted
Abrasive
Harsh
Smooth
Silky
Linear

*Tonality*
Warm
Musical
Colored
Neutral
Natural
Clinical
Sterile
Pure
Dry
Saturated
Grounded

*Noise Level*
Quiet
Noisy
Hissy


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Here are some descriptive terms, many of which are redundant synonyms so only the best should be used.
> 
> *Stereo Imaging / Staging*
> Balanced
> ...


there might be to many answers. maybe i can shorten it to the most common ones. make patterns more apparent


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> there might be to many answers. maybe i can shorten it to the most common ones. make patterns more apparent


Hence my comment that only the best should be used, probably around 5 per category.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

After looking at evaluations in the captainobvious test, here are some others to consider:

Muffled
Muddy
Muted
Full
Flat
Dull
Soft
Rough
Tinny
Rich
Thin
Airy
Cold

I'm going to organize them into opposite pairs like Smooth/Harsh to help refine the list and make it easier for the testers since they won't have the option to select contradicting descriptions.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Here are some descriptive terms, many of which are redundant synonyms so only the best should be used.
> 
> *Stereo Imaging / Staging*
> Balanced
> ...


this is narrowed down to something more realistic


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> are definition and clarity not the same as tonality?


Close, but definition is more about texture and tonality describes the character of sounds. The terms for each are quite interchangeable so let's use the ones that are more specific to their category, like distorted definition and warm tonality.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

How about these?

*Stereo Imaging & Staging*
Balanced / Smeared
Spacious / Compressed

*Dynamics & Headroom*
Strong / Strained
Responsive / Sluggish

*Definition & Clarity*
Detailed / Muddy
Smooth / Abrasive
Transparent / Muffled
Clean / Distorted

*Tonality*
Colored / Neutral
Warm / Sterile
Saturated / Dry
Bright / Dull
Full / Thin

*Noise Level*
Quiet / Noisy


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Just to make it clear since the Phoenix gold was mentioned as a possible reference, it's an MS series, not M series. It only matters because PG made both. Don't want there to be any confusion.

This testing criteria is way over my head now. I'll leave it to you Nick to perform the test. I'm eager to hear the results.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Oh, so it's from the early 90s?

I'm thinking the Soundstream Reference might be fine even if it is a bit higher powered than the rest because it'll be level matched and less likely to exhibit any distinct character when driven lightly. The only advantage it gets is headroom but most amps will have plenty of that anyway if they're being scaled back to the Butler's output.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Yes it's early 90s. Still considered a pretty decent sq amp. In this group I'd place it middle of the pack, same with the soundstream. Both would be good as reference amps.

While the ms-2125 is rated at 125x2 it's probably closer to 200x2, so it's pretty high powered. Nick can attest to its size and weight.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> then you should see the rest of the house. its sickening lol. it has "suburban mom" plastered all over the place. it actually extremely annoying to even look at for me, let alone listen to her god damn "country" music through her bluetooth sonos system. ughhhhhh


I just might get along with her quite well 

Maybe not the sonos part...

Is your mom going to be part of this test? That would be phenomenal.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I just might get along with her quite well
> 
> Maybe not the sonos part...
> 
> Is your mom going to be part of this test? That would be phenomenal.


-_____-

actually when i told her why i have "so much ****" being delivered and why im setting up a table in the basement, she wasnt happy. she also thinks im lying to her and that these amps werent loaned to me lol


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> then you should see the rest of the house. its sickening lol. it has "suburban mom" plastered all over the place. it actually extremely annoying to even look at for me, let alone listen to her god damn "country" music through her bluetooth sonos system. ughhhhhh





Catalyx said:


> I'm thinking the Soundstream Reference might be fine even if it is a bit higher powered than the rest


we assume the SS is the highest powered. but until it's scoped, it's an unknown. has it indeed been scoped to determine it's max unclipped output?

this falls back to what I mentioned earlier... you have two options:
scope every amp to determine it's max unclipped voltage output (unloaded; since Nick doesn't have dummy loads)
or
go by rating and deal with the consequence as (if) it shows up in the test results

still, I'd find it useful to know what it really does vs what the mfg says it does. that very well could explain some things if it's enough to be audible.









as for the adjectives, if you're going to use a list, make sure everyone has the same interpretation. some people here use words like "warm" or "dark" and mean different things. for the sake of analysis accuracy AND for the reader of the results, I'd attempt to define them as best you can before any testing is done. and provide said definition with the results.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Oh, so it's from the early 90s?
> 
> I'm thinking the Soundstream Reference might be fine even if it is a bit higher powered than the rest because it'll be level matched and less likely to exhibit any distinct character when driven lightly. The only advantage it gets is headroom but most amps will have plenty of that anyway if they're being scaled back to the Butler's output.


turns out the butler has a decent amount of power. 75x2 according to vwdave who supplied it. looks like my zapco dc 360.4 is the least powerful at 50 a channel, or i can bridge it to 180.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> we assume the SS is the highest powered. but until it's scoped, it's an unknown. has it indeed been scoped to determine it's max unclipped output?
> 
> this falls back to what I mentioned earlier... you have two options:
> scope every amp to determine it's max output
> ...


its not like soundstream amps were over rated back then. its rated for like 300x2 if i remember correctly. its a big amp


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> turns out the butler has a decent amount of power. 75x2 according to vwdave who supplied it. looks like my zapco dc 360.4 is the least powerful at 50 a channel, *or i can bridge it* to 180.


you're opening up a can of worms if you're going to start bridging amps. for example, the hd600/4 I sent will do 300x2 bridged or 150x4. I've tested the outputs myself and found the ratings to match spec (I posted a thread about this in 2008 or 2009, iirc). if you're going to start bridging amps then one could make the case that you should do it for all of them, which puts you back to square one.


as an aside, anecdotal discussion around the forum has indicated higher noise floor with X amp when bridged. I don't know if any of these amps may fall under that. so while you may match the output level to a higher amp you may also increase the noise floor. 



for the record I am NOT saying you shouldn't bridge amps. I am saying that it's also another factor to be considered before doing it.


this test is intended to do what? 
by answering that, you can then _reasonably _determine how best to resolve these kind of concerns.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> its not like soundstream amps were over rated back then. its rated for like 300x2 if i remember correctly. its a big amp


there are a lot of amps that can't do rated power as well. I'm not asking a question without merit here, Nick.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Catalyx said:


> *I'm thinking the Soundstream Reference might be fine even if it is a bit higher powered than the rest because it'll be level matched and less likely to exhibit any distinct character when driven lightly.* The only advantage it gets is headroom but most amps will have plenty of that anyway if they're being scaled back to the Butler's output.


I agree with that. It should assure that there's no other factors at play. 

Just so it's clear, this is a new REF2.640. It's not old school. I know this because I sent it. I know most guys here would favor the old school amps, but I think that should not change what's been pointed out about it. The PG would be a good choice as well though.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

K.I.S.S.

Divide the test in two parts. The first should only measure one thing. Do people hear a difference between A & B at any statistical significance? Decide what that point of significance will be. 

If no, then the test ends.

If yes, then go on to the second part where they choose the one that sounds best. Don't overload them with subjective terms which are vague and will mean different things to different folks. Keep it simple and let them choose the one that sounds the best and give their reasons. Of course, when you plug these results in you may discover that preference is somewhat evenly distributed, to the point where no one amp can be declared the winner. So be it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

my plan wasnt to bridge the zapco, unless it effected the rest of the test somehow (not enough volume without clipping, etc..). i think the zapco might be the only amp that is unreasonably "weak" in the group. maybe the LP and sinfoni but im sure they have more power than the zapco. i was not planning on bridging this, or definitely not any of the other amps. it was just a thought. either way, my friend Mike is coming over the day before and were setting everything up and doing all of the gain matching. the test was originally intended to see if amps sound the same, or different. then it got to the point that if they do sound different, how different do they sound and how big of a role do they play


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> my plan wasnt to bridge the zapco, unless it effected the rest of the test somehow (not enough volume without clipping, etc..). i think the zapco might be the only amp that is unreasonably "weak" in the group. maybe the LP and sinfoni but im sure they have more power than the zapco. i was not planning on bridging this, or definitely not any of the other amps. it was just a thought. either way, my friend Mike is coming over the day before and were setting everything up and doing all of the gain matching. *the test was originally intended to see if amps sound the same, or different. then it got to the point that if they do sound different, how different do they sound and how big of a role do they play*


I think it would be a huge waste to simply determine the former with all the setup you're doing. Well, in the event that the testers determine they do not all sound the same.

But like I've said before, I don't think you can say "no, they don't all sound the same" without explaining why. And by explaining why, they are performing the test in your second sentence I highlighted. So I don't think it was ever a simple yes or no test that you and possibly others thought it was going to be. I see where you might have thought it expanded to be almost a product review for each amp, but again, I think it had to be that from the beginning.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

sqnut said:


> K.I.S.S.
> 
> Divide the test in two parts. The first should only measure one thing. Do people hear a difference between A & B at any statistical significance? Decide what that point of significance will be.
> 
> ...




Too little too late...but something I've always wondered is if there would be a way to switch between amps fluidly. I mean...without a click, pause, or characteristic that would give away that the outputs were switched.

It's probably dumb, but what if they were asked to count how many times the outputs were swapped between amps? I would presume that with the amps sounding different there'd be an immediate effect that could be pointed out.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> I think it would be a huge waste to simply determine the former with all the setup you're doing. Well, in the event that the testers determine they do not all sound the same.
> 
> But like I've said before, I don't think you can say "no, they don't all sound the same" without explaining why. And by explaining why, they are performing the test in your second sentence I highlighted. So I don't think it was ever a simple yes or no test that you and possibly others thought it was going to be. I see where you might have thought it expanded to be almost a product review for each amp, but again, I think it had to be that from the beginning.


yeah. idk if you guys remember z28/wrx on here, but hes somewhat local to me. i wanted him to come sunday but hes away right now. he said when he used to work for a demo board company they did this a few times and is 100% convinced there is not a single difference in sound between any amp, or at least any of the ones hes tested over the years. i find it hard to believe, but who knows. that part of the test will be first, then if theres an obvious sign of difference, we will go over and do the subjective part


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Scoping unloaded amplifier is pointless and not every amp will like dummy loads/mosconi even stated that in their website.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Scoping unloaded amplifier is pointless and not every amp will like dummy loads/mosconi even stated that in their website.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


so, suggestion please?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Connect 4ohm sub as load if you want to scope.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> Scoping unloaded amplifier is pointless and not every amp will like dummy loads/mosconi even stated that in their website.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


Mr. Mantz has stated this before too when I talked to him, as well as Keep_Hope_Alive. 



SkizeR said:


> so, suggestion please?


Find someone with dummy loads. Might be able to sweet talk TFade, I'm pretty sure he still has his.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Connect 4ohm sub as load if you want to scope.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


what about the speakers that are being used? i have a 4 ohm sub, but any reason why not use the speakers that will be used?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes you can use speakers.non of the amps you using powerful enough to blew them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Find someone with dummy loads. Might be able to sweet talk TFade, I'm pretty sure he still has his.


my friend whos coming with the scope will have everything i need. but like vic said, might just use a sub or the speakers


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> my friend whos coming with the scope will have everything i need. but like vic said, might just use a sub or the speakers


Just remember you'll be setting that with what, 1kHz tone? Not sure how a sub would like that. Speakers would work, maybe just string a cable to have them in another room, because that's going to get annoying _real_ fast lol.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Just remember you'll be setting that with what, 1kHz tone? Not sure how a sub would like that. Speakers would work, maybe just string a cable to have them in another room, because that's going to get annoying _real_ fast lol.


1khz is the soundtrack to my nightmares.. along with "my voice is in phase, my voice is out of phase", except the voice is never in phase in my nightmares lol.
but yeah maybe i can use an old speaker wired outside to the garage to set all the levels


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

gckless said:


> Just remember you'll be setting that with what, 1kHz tone? Not sure how a sub would like that. Speakers would work, maybe just string a cable to have them in another room, because that's going to get annoying _real_ fast lol.


That`s why i suggested sub, it will be just fine. Aside from being annoying as hell.
As alternative to speaker/sub VC from really big SUB will act as dummy load. 
It can get really hot though.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oh, btw, if two or more people miraculously are able to do the challenge for the brax amp, there will be a no rules cage fight as a tie breaker. may the odds be ever in the testers favor


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> oh, btw, if two or more people miraculously are able to do the challenge for the brax amp, there will be a no rules cage fight. may the odds be ever in the testers favor


 That alone is perfect reason for me to participate, maybe next time.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> turns out the butler has a decent amount of power. 75x2 according to vwdave who supplied it. looks like my zapco dc 360.4 is the least powerful at 50 a channel, or i can bridge it to 180.


I hadn't noticed the Zapco's low power, I would bridge it because it'll only be doing around 38W into those 6 ohm speakers. Having one bridged amp in the bunch is fine and if it ends up being described as noisy we'll have a bit of confirmation that bridging introduces noise.



SkizeR said:


> its not like soundstream amps were over rated back then. its rated for like 300x2 if i remember correctly. its a big amp


Actually it's rated for 190 x 2 @ 4 ohm so not too far off from the others and only around 140W into your speakers. Of course, the listening tests won't be using even close to that amount of power or you'll tire everyone's ears out real fast.

I do think the Soundstream is a good reference, but in reality most the amps other than expected outliers like the Butler and Pyle would do fine so go with what you think is best.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

sqnut said:


> K.I.S.S.
> 
> Divide the test in two parts. The first should only measure one thing. Do people hear a difference between A & B at any statistical significance? Decide what that point of significance will be.
> 
> If no, then the test ends. If yes, then go on to the second part where they choose the one that sounds best.


I agree with focusing on just the detection of any difference at first but the subjective tests should be done even if there is no ABX statistical signifcance since they will show psychoacoustic effects.

Here are my suggestions from yesterday:

*1. Blind ABX Test*

Play 15 secs of a song with reference amp A, the next 15 secs with amp B, then let the tester instantly select between the two for another 30 secs. If they can't detect any difference then move on to the next B amp, otherwise play 30 secs on amp X and have them guess if it's A or B.

The testers hand in their answer sheets which you tally up to see which amps were able to be identified more often. Use the most distinct third of the amps plus the reference for the next step to save time, reduce listener fatigue and ignore the amps too similar to provide significant results.

*2. Blind Subjective Test*

Assign the amps numbers and give the testers a sheet of criteria to describe the sound of each, choose an overall score from 1 to 5 and provide one line for optional open ended impressions. Play 1 min of a track chosen by them from a small selection of songs representing different genres. Give them an additional 30 secs to finish writing and clear their ears then move on to the next amp until done then start over with the non-blind run.

*3. Non-Blind Subjective Test*

Same as the blind, but change the order of the amps and give them new sheets with the amps listed by name and a field to guess which number they were in the blind run.



sqnut said:


> Don't overload them with subjective terms which are vague and will mean different things to different folks. Keep it simple and let them choose the one that sounds the best and give their reasons. Of course, when you plug these results in you may discover that preference is somewhat evenly distributed, to the point where no one amp can be declared the winner. So be it.


That's why I suggest providing the descriptions in opposite pairs of the least ambiguous terms to clarify their meanings and avoid contradicting feedback. There'll still be a line for open ended comments but the testers should have simple options to select from so they can focus on listening rather than articulating their aural impressions into words.

The captainobvious test had unsatisfying subjective results because people's comments were so varied in structure that no real comparisons could be made. Some only used a few words and some went in depth though mostly described musical elements rather than overall sound.

Subjective results don't provide any real conclusions but using the standardized descriptions below will at least show some kind of pattern behind people's preferences.

*Stereo Imaging & Staging*
Balanced / Smeared
Spacious / Compressed

*Dynamics & Headroom*
Strong / Strained
Responsive / Sluggish

*Definition & Clarity*
Detailed / Muddy
Smooth / Abrasive
Transparent / Muffled
Clean / Distorted

*Tonality*
Colored / Neutral
Warm / Sterile
Saturated / Dry
Bright / Dull
Full / Thin

*Noise Level*
Quiet / Noisy


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Catalyx said:


> but the subjective tests should be done even if there is no ABX statistical signifcance since they will show psychoacoustic effects.


Why? The idea is to establish some scientific basis. If we base our judgement purely on psychoacoustics, 50 different people are going to hear it 50 different ways. What's the worth of that?




Catalyx said:


> *Stereo Imaging & Staging*
> Balanced / Smeared
> Spacious / Compressed
> 
> ...


Way too many vague terms, way to many variables, imho.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Why? The idea is to establish some scientific basis. If we base our judgement purely on psychoacoustics, 50 different people are going to hear it 50 different ways. What's the worth of that?


If the ABX guesses turn out to be 50/50 then so be it. That is the scientific basis of the test.

The subjective runs will show if there is any kind of pattern to people's preferences. I assume a lot of our interest in this is to see whether the pricey forum boner amps can actually be shown to sound better or if we've been pissing away our money.




sqnut said:


> Way too many vague terms, way to many variables.


Do you have less vague terms to suggest? Using only a single score with open ended comments as to why they like the amp is even more vague with vastly more variables.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

BTW, I'm not saying the testers have to select every term, only the ones they want to use.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Catalyx said:


> If the ABX guesses turn out to be 50/50 then so be it. That is the scientific basis of the test.
> 
> The subjective runs will show if there is any kind of pattern to people's preferences. I assume a lot of our interest in this is to see whether the pricey forum boner amps can actually be shown to sound better or if we've been pissing away our money.


If you cant tell a difference in ABX of what value is the subjective opinion? It's like saying, I can't tell the difference, but I prefer the sound of that amp.....a bit of an oxymoron. If ABX is ~50/50 then yes folks buying Mosconi and Brax and claiming to be in sonic nirvana, are actually victims of expectation bias. 




Catalyx said:


> Do you have less vague terms to suggest? Using only a single score with open ended comments as to why they like the amp is even more vague with vastly more variables.


If ABX > say 60% and amps do sound different, then do the subjective test and let the listeners pick their favorite and describe why. This way at least you will see if everyone is veering towards 'a' or 'a few', amps. Why they prefer it becomes secondary.

Your list requires the listener to evaluate 33 criteria based on 30 seconds of listening. Way too many variables, auditory memory is way too short to be accurate over 7-8 runs of 30 sec- 1 min plus break time in between.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

sqnut said:


> If ABX is ~50/50 then yes folks buying Mosconi and Brax and claiming to be in sonic nirvana, are actually victims of expectation bias.


Exactly, which is part of what this test is trying to show.



sqnut said:


> If ABX > say 60% and amps do sound different, then do the subjective test and let the listeners pick their favorite and describe why. This way at least you will see if everyone is veering towards 'a' or 'a few', amps. Why they prefer it becomes secondary.


I'm assuming many of the 15 amps will be around 50% which is why I said to only use the top third most distinctive ones for the subjective test. It might be from a small range of something like 46% to 59% but that will still pare down the group to 5 amps.

Anyway, if Skizer wants to do the subjective test then bloody well let him as long as the ABX is also done.



sqnut said:


> Your list requires the listener to evaluate 33 criteria based on 30 seconds of listening. Way too many variables, auditory memory is way too short to be accurate over 7-8 runs of 30 sec- 1 min plus break time in between.


I actually suggested 1 min listening with 30 secs of break but I figured the times would be changed. 90 sec of audio would probably be better.

The subjective part will only be with 5 amps so more likely for people to retain impressions but you're right, auditory memory loss is an issue.

We're not really trying to make the testers compare amps, just select a few descriptive options and give a score. Someone could give every amp top marks if they want, the comparisons will be done by Skizer when he tallies the info.

And as I said, the testers only select the terms they want to so they don't need to evaluate every one. The list I gave is only a suggestion, it could be trimmed down.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thank you for the suggestions guys. im going to finalize everything tonight. as far as songs, i have a few picked out. anyone have any suggestions i should look at to use? im thinking more dynamic and faster songs would make it easier to hear differences. like one of the songs i picked is Hot For Teacher by Van Halen. the beginning of that song should make it damn clear if an amps damping factor has an obvious advantage over another amps control of the speaker


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> thank you for the suggestions guys. im going to finalize everything tonight. as far as songs, i have a few picked out. anyone have any suggestions i should look at to use?


some Stevie Ray Vaughn


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, that live Hotel California seems to be the go to track for SQ testing


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Seal-Crazy


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Well, that live Hotel California seems to be the go to track for SQ testing


i have that, but not individual songs. its just the whole thing on one track. also thinking Ticks & Leeches by Tool, and girlfriend in a coma or unhappy birthday by the smiths, or really anything else from that album

edit, also paranoid android by radiohead


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

seafish said:


> some Stevie Ray Vaughn


anything in particular?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> i have that, but not individual songs. its just the whole thing on one track. also thinking Ticks & Leeches by Tool, and girlfriend in a coma or unhappy birthday by the smiths, or really anything else from that album
> 
> edit, also paranoid android by radiohead


That won't matter if you're making clips from the songs.

It'll be a pain to replay them without doing that, and you'll end up starting from different points. Pick sections that provide the widest range of sound.

What are you using for your audio playback source?

Anything by Tool would be good in my book


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

source is Pioneer DEX-P99RS


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> source is Pioneer DEX-P99RS


Cool. What are you using to power that and 15 amps?

From what I can see, the switching module only has 18 channels so I assume you'll be swapping cables periodically when testing all 15 models?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Cool. What are you using to power that and 15 amps?
> 
> From what I can see, the switching module only has 18 channels so I assume you'll be swapping cables periodically when testing all 15 models?


bought a power supply from victor. should be enough to power the head unit and one amp at a time no problem


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> bought a power supply from victor. should be enough to power the head unit and one amp at a time no problem


Won't you need to power two at once for immediate switching?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Won't you need to power two at once for immediate switching?


well they will all be in parallel (which i have to set up soon), but they wont be pulling much current if theyre not playing


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> well they will all be in parallel (which i have to set up soon), but they wont be pulling much current if theyre not playing


Ah, got it. Have you tested the switcher to see how fast you can move from one source to another?


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## CDT FAN (Jul 25, 2012)

seafish said:


> some Stevie Ray Vaughn


Tin Pan Alley


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Yeah, if you have a decent enough power supply you can have all the amps powered and on the ready. You're not really putting much stress on the power supply because you're only putting a draw on one amp at a time anyway.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

if the average idle draw is 1 amp, then 15 amps of turn-on juice is going to tax that little 30 amp juicebox Victor sells...

wouldn't it be necessary to have a battery reserve inserted, for a little headroom?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cajunner said:


> if the average idle draw is 1 amp, then 15 amps of turn-on juice is going to tax that little 30 amp juicebox Victor sells...
> 
> wouldn't it be necessary to have a battery reserve inserted, for a little headroom?


It`s gonna be just fine. Battery in parallel is not a bad idea though. 
PSU just shuts down when overloaded. 
power cycle resets it. no fuses to replace. primary protected by fuse but to blow that you`d need 15A at 110V current not happening unless PSU malfunctioning shorted mosfet and such...


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm thinking of some amps that are more Class A biased, and might run 3 amps of idle juice just staying turned on, if that's the case then it'll be a problem, since he's running the big DSP deck off the same supply, I believe?

the P99RS is probably pulling 3 amps by itself, add that to a couple of amps that run hot, like Mosconi and Linear and Zuki and you're almost sucking a ten amp draw on the supply just for lighting the power-on LED's on less than half the test group.

Of course, it may illuminate which amps can handle a low voltage condition without sounding wooly or engaging protection circuits, which can be an interesting test result all the same...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> I'm thinking of some amps that are more Class A biased, and might run 3 amps of idle juice just staying turned on, if that's the case then it'll be a problem, since he's running the big DSP deck off the same supply, I believe?
> 
> the P99RS is probably pulling 3 amps by itself, add that to a couple of amps that run hot, like Mosconi and Linear and Zuki and you're almost sucking a ten amp draw on the supply just for lighting the power-on LED's on less than half the test group.
> 
> Of course, it may illuminate which amps can handle a low voltage condition without sounding wooly or engaging protection circuits, which can be an interesting test result all the same...


ill test it tomorrow night when i set it up. either way, i have about 5 big agm batteries and a charger that i can use for reserve


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

How's the setup going?

Are you going to post the final test procedure today?


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Catalyx said:


> How's the setup going?
> 
> Are you going to post the final test procedure today?


He said we have to wait until tomorrow. :mean:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

But tomorrow NEVER comes, it's ALWAYS a day away.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> But tomorrow NEVER comes, it's ALWAYS a day away.


O ye, of little faith


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

been setting up for the past 2.5 hours.. i still have more speaker wire to do, and then gotta do all of the power and grounds. im probably not going to sleep tonight.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Quite the trooper, though I don't think anyone expects you to stay up into the wee hours of the morning trying to get done all you can.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Quite the trooper, though I don't think anyone expects you to stay up into the wee hours of the morning trying to get done all you can.


well, people are coming tomorrow. i would have set it up last night and today but i had 50+ people at the house for my grandmothers birthday. was an absolute nightmare. old people everywhere


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

In that case, I'll leave you be for the night. Good luck.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Quite the trooper, though I don't think anyone expects you to stay up into the wee hours of the morning trying to get done all you can.


Not just that but Nick has to rest or he will be useless in the morning.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

still at it. almost done doing the power wire. then gotta do the ground then set up the head unit


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Did anyone say "5 hour energy drink" and or 'RED bull gives you wings"?
Holy moly.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Diana Karl, Popsicle toes, is a great track for sound testing in vocal and instrument reproduction. Highly recommend it. The recording is top notch, and if there is anything to hear in details , it is a great track to reveal with.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

5:10 am. Just about done with all power and ground wire.. ****ing hell

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> 5:10am ****ing hell
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Go to bed! Nobody wants their amps hooked up backwards.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Just finished setting up. Now for two hours of sleep, wake up, then set levels 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

It is so messy though. Wires everywhere. Only have a small area on a table to work with

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

So all except two people bailed. Great.

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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

That REALLY sucks. Wish I weren't halfway across the country. 

So now that it seems like the testing rig is done, how long do you think you'll be able to keep the amps on loan for any potential testers in the near future. 

Just wondering if you've decided to abandon the idea, now that so many have bailed.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

As long as they allow. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Cool. 

So given there were just three of you to do some testing, can you give us "any" information as to how the testing went? 

I know a much larger pool would have been desired, but maybe we can get some sort of impression from minimal testing/testers. 

Did anyone notice any distinct difference or was there any particular pattern among the three of you?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Cool.
> 
> So given there were just three of you to do some testing, can you give us "any" information as to how the testing went?
> 
> ...


of coarse.. if i can get my damn computer to actually burn this cd lol


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## erlebo (Jan 10, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> As long as they allow.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


There's a good chance that I'll be around NYC on 10/05, but I may be too old. At what age does somebody become a nightmare?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

So most folks who had confirmed, backed out. Commitment levels of online friendships are minimal and it should tell you something about both the real world and people in general. Just treasure the real friends you have. Can't have same set of expectations from both sets.

Go through the process with the two who show up, so that you get the process set for next time. Next time, fix a date and use social media to target everyone within 3 blocks of where you're going to conduct the test. 99% Car audio enthusiasts don't have better listening skills and ears, from your the average Joe and Jane who show up. Be ready for a lot of uncles, aunts and sundry others. There's always a bright side. 

p.s. good luck with the test, curious about results even with the limited sample size.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Now if you had the test ready for your mom's 50 older guests that would actually have been pretty interesting. 

The 2 that bailed out, are they local to NY?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

People suck

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

erlebo said:


> There's a good chance that I'll be around NYC on 10/05, but I may be too old. At what age does somebody become a nightmare?


85+ lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

either way, its all good. right now me and a friend are doing trial runs and getting everything ready


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

The bright side is the testing sessions won't take as long so people won't get tired.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i guess its a blessing in disguise since i can do trials and get everything 110% so im not just putting it together the night before and going for it


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

^ exactly


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Yea it's great that you can test it all out and get the gremlins out before people are coming.

So you mentioned that you'd be doing it next weekend too, right? Did those people also bail? Who are the two that are still coming? They should be commended for staying true to their words. I can understand those who bailed, life always gets in the way. This is a hobby so if family things pop up then I can understand that.

Post pictures of the wiring mess. I am very curious how many power supplies you are using to power 15-20 amps. Also, curious how you have it all layed out.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

it's a blessing in disguise.

the idea that you were going to do multiple runs on separated dates means that you can test the same people twice over time, that's what they call 4-D, or the fourth dimension.

it will actually give a more scientific result and could bring your little set-up some real cred in the online community, just remember that hard data is the ticket to paradise and don't publish anything right away, even if people clamor for it.

you control the flow of information and you can make this thing into a juggernaut.


juggernaut, love that I was able to use that word...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok. The OFFICIAL DATE IS SUNDAY THE 13TH OF SEPTEMBER. If this day isn't good for anyone local, you can come anytime before then now that I'm 100% ready. I would do next Sunday but it's labor day and doubt anyone will be available. I'm seriously trying to get a good crowd for this day. If anyone thinks it's to far, I will chip in to cover gas money. To any of the people who lent amps, you are the real MVP. It takes some serious balls to lend someone something as expensive and fragile as an amp. If you would like or need the amps back before then, it is not a problem and I can ship them back whenever you would like.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

It would be interesting to hear your feedback on any obvious differences. I think there should be at least 2 or 3 that will have a strong enough difference for you to tell without going in depth , but confirm it so....if carefully possible


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> It would be interesting to hear your feedback on any obvious differences. I think there should be at least 2 or 3 that will have a strong enough difference for you to tell without going in depth , but confirm it so....if carefully possible


I'm not saying anything yet, besides that the pyle is the best sounding one I heard today 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

And was it the only one you listened to, or one of the just two you heard? Be funny as hell if the Pyle ends up coming out above some of the much higher costing amps.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

No I'm just messing with you. I was saying that the pyle was the best out of all

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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Funny man. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Pyle comes in dead last or even if it beats out one of two of the other amps, but coming out on top, I don't think many on here would accept such, even if it were true.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Funny man.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if the Pyle comes in dead last or even if it beats out one of two of the other amps, but coming out on top, I don't think many on here would accept such, even if it were true.


but lets just say it actually did halfway decent... i bet anyone would strip any credibility from me, and this test just because of the name on the amp


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> but lets just say it actually did halfway decent... i bet anyone would strip any credibility from me, and this test just because of the name on the amp


 Is that common stereotype that low end companies design their amps to be POS on purpose?
Or is it because for most people amps design is more like witchcraft?


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

Pyle might be a sleeper, given they have been able to use the same design or change them up over 30 years they might actually have a great circuit but stymied by the parts bin selections that fill the board.

I wouldn't be surprised that some testers will draw the Pyle as having some aspect of sound quality that competes very well with some of the high test, like warmth. If the Pyle measures a roll off and the Mosconi measures a roll off, and they sound similar due to roll off, it could be possible that you can buy Mosconi sound for Pyle change.


Or not, of course...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

oh, and btw, out of what was done today, me and mike did have one VERY interesting find about the mosconi amp as seen on the oscope, and it makes sense as far as some of the claims about them go


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> but lets just say it actually did halfway decent... i bet anyone would strip any credibility from me, and this test just because of the name on the amp


If it actually does well and beats out some of the "high-end" amplifiers, you might want to think about going into hiding as soon as you post such results. LOL


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> If it actually does well and beats out some of the "high-end" amplifiers, you might want to think about going into hiding as soon as you post such results. LOL


if it beats the sinfoni for whatever reason, half of this forum will put up a ransom for me :laugh:


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

If his test is clean, he will only be reflecting what the test results find, so it shouldn't reflect back on him.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Phil Indeblanc said:


> If his test is clean, he will only be reflecting what the test results find, so it shouldn't reflect back on him.


in a perfect world maybe. the second someones favorite amp isnt number one (even though this test doesnt mean so), they will have some sort of grudge against me


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

faaaaak em

I wouldn't be surprised if anyone close on your shoulders had ulterior motives in this test.
Not saying anyone is doing such in helping you or anything. I don't even know if you have any help, let alone who.....
But I am saying that there are some people that will do anything to secure their interests. Keep your ears and eyes open.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm pretty sure we can expect the Sinfoni to beat the pants off the Pyle, but there was some nagging concern about Sinfoni running hot? Maybe it's got the bias bumped up too far, and that full feeling turns to bloated while the Pyle is smack dead center and not too sharp, not too dull...



I wouldn't have any ill will towards test results, no matter what they are and I think I've been a little obvious in my wanting to see some 50/50 action with high test equipment in the rotation, which is actually not my experience but I'd like it to be true, in a more scientifically approached test than what I've mustered up as a hobbyist with my preconceptions and perception bias.

Even if I've been doing this longer than SkizeR has been alive, he brings a much needed parameter of activity-driven, pursuit of the audio dream with his testing.

And I don't expect it to advance the state of our hobby, or supersede Clark's amp challenge or Carver's display of amp signature recreation, but it might push some of the lower level amp use as legitimate, and quell the current fad of "how high can you buy" some of these really expensive pieces of mobile audio.


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## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

I may have missed it but are you still doing the measured portion of the test? If so, will the results be available before the listening test even if you just post the measurements without saying which amp each measurement corresponds to?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I could care less what amp is "best". 

I'm in this for the variability in subjectivity. I'm interested more to see how your results of the _listeners_ line up with what Steve's findings were previously.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> Even if I've been doing this longer than SkizeR has been alive, he brings a much needed parameter of activity-driven, pursuit of the audio dream with his testing.







cajunner said:


> And I don't expect it to advance the state of our hobby, or supersede Clark's amp challenge or Carver's display of amp signature recreation, but it might push some of the lower level amp use as legitimate, and quell the current fad of "how high can you buy" some of these really expensive pieces of mobile audio.


or it might be a cover for that heist you mentioned a month or so ago where i move to hollywood and co-star with the rock lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jesus Christ said:


> I may have missed it but are you still doing the measured portion of the test? If so, will the results be available before the listening test even if you just post the measurements without saying which amp each measurement corresponds to?


ill be doing a measure frequency response test for sure. not sure if i can get any other specs without crazy equipment. il will be starting that this week. just gotta run to the store and grab some resistors, and adapters


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> I could care less what amp is "best".
> 
> I'm in this for the variability in subjectivity. I'm interested more to see how your results of the _listeners_ line up with what Steve's findings were previously.


you never warned me how god damn stubborn these speaker out and power/ground adapters are on the HD :laugh:


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I observed one interesting thing during my many years in this, pretty equipment does sounds better to most people. I feel like I`m wasting my time trying to perfect circuits when I should learn industrial design instead.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Mine looked like they had been in a fight after prying them off with a screw driver or whatever large pair of pillars I had on hand. They are a real MFer...but you don't have to worry about them falling out driving down the road.



SkizeR said:


> you never warned me how god damn stubborn these speaker out and power/ground adapters are on the HD :laugh:


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Mine looked like they had been in a fight after prying them off with a screw driver or whatever large pair of pillars I had on hand. They are a real MFer...but you don't have to worry about them falling out driving down the road.


well i told erin that if there is a single visible scratch on his amp, that he will be getting a brand new one, as with all of the other amps/loaners. i was sitting there with it for over 30 minutes trying to see how i could get it to work without manhandling the amp and using all of the strength i have just to possibly break something.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know that feeling all too well.


----------



## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Please don't make any more hints about what you have seen/experienced before the test. People who are going to be in the test are reading this, and I wouldn't want anything said before the test to influence them in any way.

What I would do is sorta keep a journal on what your thoughts may be, like what you have mentioned, and see if they come to fruition.

But I'm good man, I won't need the amp at all. Take your time.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Please don't make any more hints about what you have seen/experienced before the test. People who are going to be in the test are reading this, and I wouldn't want anything said before the test to influence them in any way.
> 
> What I would do is sorta keep a journal on what your thoughts may be, like what you have mentioned, and see if they come to fruition.
> 
> But I'm good man, I won't need the amp at all. Take your time.


in that case, this test will take about 15 years 

but yeah thats a good idea. im used to using my build log as my notebook. maybe i should get a voice recorder like dale from king of the hill


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> you never warned me how god damn stubborn these speaker out and power/ground adapters are on the HD :laugh:


dude, tell me about it. wiggle and pry. wiggle and pry. 

at least you're not in a trunk with them. 




as for keeping it ... just keep me up to date here. I don't think I'll need it for at least a few weeks.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> dude, tell me about it. wiggle and pry. wiggle and pry.
> 
> at least you're not in a trunk with them.
> 
> ...


yours might be here for a few extra weeks while i try to figure a way to get those off without accidentally ripping the amp in half


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

start working out your forearms, dude.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> start working out your forearms, dude.


was that a masturbation joke? :laugh:


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

edit. never mind


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Ulterior motives...conspiracy theories...this gets more and more exciting.

You can hang onto my amps for as long as you need (within reason). I'm happy as long as they can contribute something to this test. Doesn't matter what I expect to be the outcome, I'll hp e happy to either learn something or confirm what I suspect (which is also learning something).

I do, however, expect a 25 page thesis written about this test the Monday after its completed.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> Ulterior motives...conspiracy theories...this gets more and more exciting.
> 
> You can hang onto my amps for as long as you need (within reason). I'm happy as long as they can contribute something to this test. Doesn't matter what I expect to be the outcome, I'll hp e happy to either learn something or confirm what I suspect (which is also learning something).
> 
> I do, however, expect a 25 page thesis written about this test the Monday after its completed.


i dont think ive ever written 25 pages of anything, besides on this website lol. im actually uploading a video of a timelapse of me setting up the amps from the first night. didnt get finished though. i left off with wires everywhere, and no batteries, power supply, speakers, switchers, etc. just amps and wires


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

me setting up most of the amp test. didnt even finish this night so excuse the wires and mess. started at 9pm, stopped at 7am, then woke up at 9 to set levels. so yes, that time stamp is in hours


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## Earlysport (Jul 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Just finished setting up. Now for two hours of sleep, wake up, then set levels
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


You're setting levels to within .1 db after only two hours sleep? Seems like a huge chance of an error here on the most critical part of the test.. Good luck!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Earlysport said:


> You're setting levels to within .1 db after only two hours sleep? Seems like a huge chance of an error here on the most critical part of the test.. Good luck!


I wasn't the only one there. My friend Mike was operating the oscope. I was just adjusting gains. They're all within a couple hundredths of a volt

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

posting again.. New and final date is september 13th. if you cant make it that day, but still want to help out, just let me know and i can do it with you any day any time before then.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> I wasn't the only one there. My friend Mike was operating the oscope. I was just adjusting gains. They're all within a couple hundredths of a volt
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Well done.
That's the main key to even output across the board.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Well done.
> That's the main key to even output across the board.
> 
> 
> ...


you have no idea how hard it was. some amps took up to 15 minutes to set due to how sensitive their gain knobs are. the way we did it was set the p99 to 45, then play a 1khz tone through a spare set of speakers i had, and adjust the gain until output of the amp was 1.00 volts. i forget which amp it was, but i managed to get it to 1.00 volts on the dot first try, and when mike told me it was perfect i pulled the screw driver off the knob. just from taking the screw driver off, it changed it to 1.08 volts. took me 15 minutes to get it right after that. meanwhile the eclipse amps gain knob wasnt sensitive at all. took about 15 seconds to set that one


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

How much more wiring needs to be done?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> How much more wiring needs to be done?


the wirings all there, it just needs to be cleaned up. its fully functional, but not pretty at all


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

How smooth is the switching?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> How smooth is the switching?


very. its just very confusing since theres like a million wires coming out of them and theyre all jumbled up. i need to reorganize it


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Great to hear, I think that is a crucial part of what makes this test interesting since other ones have had breaks in between playback of clips on different amps. I don't envy your task ahead!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

measured tests are about to start. this was just a test run. it is being done by playing pink noise from my computer, to the amps, then to a voltage divider where it is measured with REW. graphs are smoothed to 1/48th because it will be nearly impossible to see any differences with no smoothing. interesting response here. anyone care to guess the amp?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Mosconi?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

142.8db...hmm


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Regardless of what amp that is, it shouldn't have a 30dB difference between bass and treble.

-Did you use the calibrate function of REW with the voltage divider in place?
-Are you using a microphone calibration file at the same time?
-Why are you using the RTA function instead of the sweep function?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> Regardless of what amp that is, it shouldn't have a 30dB difference between bass and treble.
> 
> -Did you use the calibrate function of REW with the voltage divider in place?
> -Are you using a microphone calibration file at the same time?
> -Why are you using the RTA function instead of the sweep function?


PM me. this was just to see if this was even going to work


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> measured tests are about to start. this was just a test run. it is being done by playing pink noise from my computer, to the amps, then to a voltage divider where it is measured with REW. graphs are smoothed to 1/48th because it will be nearly impossible to see any differences with no smoothing. interesting response here. anyone care to guess the amp?


You've got a Linear Power to test... right?  

Kelvin


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bump. More testers for next Sunday would be awesome

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

measured tests have started. thanks again for the help Jazzi. i will not be posting results in here. i will be making a new thread with measured results and predictions for the listening tests if everyone is ok with that


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> measured tests have started. thanks again for the help Jazzi. i will not be posting results in here. i will be making a new thread with measured results and predictions for the listening tests if everyone is ok with that


Yep, everyone is ok with that.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> Yep, everyone is ok with that.


who made you in charge? lol. actually, i guess you (and catalyx) have the most say since both of you donated two amps


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## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

As I said earlier I see no problems with posting measurements as long as you don't disclose which is which until after the listening test.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jesus Christ said:


> As I said earlier I see no problems with posting measurements as long as you don't disclose which is which until after the listening test.


well i would like to have all of the readings normalized so the distortion of my motherboard doesnt make the amps look like they have an assload of distortion.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I can't wait for the results. I bought a Kenwood amp years ago . Installed , put a quick tune on the system and immediately pulled it out. It sounded washed put and sterile. When I went in to by another amp the next day and told them about what I'd heard they looked at me like I was crazy. Cheap turntables sound the same way. It's nothing yiu can really put into words, it's just there. I've had amps that were sterile, shiny in the mid range, lacking in the mid bass. I've amps sound like wide open space and amps that made the sounds sound super thin or thick. Nobody believes me. I don't even mind a little distortion on an open sounding amp but I can't stand that washed out sound.


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Bump. More testers for next Sunday would be awesome
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


May I ask what county in NY this is happening?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

craiggus365 said:


> May I ask what county in NY this is happening?


the closest one to jersey! rockland county. stony point to be exact. you should come on through next sunday


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> the closest one to jersey! rockland county. stony point to be exact. you should come on through next sunday


I'd love to since I'm invited, I just have to watch the weather this week. I work outside and with the holiday tomorrow I may get backed up. Can I let you know near the end of the week?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

craiggus365 said:


> I'd love to since I'm invited, I just have to watch the weather this week. I work outside and with the holiday tomorrow I may get backed up. Can I let you know near the end of the week?


absolutely. i need all the people i can get.


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> absolutely. i need all the people i can get.


Thank you, very generous.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

I will be flying into LGA Sunday, but not till 7:30pm. I should have scheduled my flight earlier but I was thinking about work when I made the booking. GL with the testing and we all want to see the outcome.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

schmiddr2 said:


> I will be flying into LGA Sunday, but not till 7:30pm. I should have scheduled my flight earlier but I was thinking about work when I made the booking. GL with the testing and we all want to see the outcome.


hey, if you want you can come by whatever day if your still here. ill even pick you up and drive you back


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

when you bench the amps, are you doing it with a load?

some amps' response are affected by this. so, it's worth knowing how the test was done.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

I get it now, a blind subjective is like objective, right?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> when you bench the amps, are you doing it with a load?
> 
> some amps' response are affected by this. so, it's worth knowing how the test was done.


Bench on the measured test or for gain setting?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Bench on the measured test or for gain setting?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


they should be the same.
however you set the gains is how you should measure the amp. 

your purpose of measuring the amps is to attempt to correlate subjective analysis with objective measurements. if you objectively measure in a way that can't be applied to the subjective tests, then what's the point?


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> hey, if you want you can come by whatever day if your still here. ill even pick you up and drive you back


I will have a car. If I get done with work early I may have Friday (18th) evening or Saturday morning free. I'll let you know.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Jesus Christ said:


> As I said earlier I see no problems with posting measurements as long as you don't disclose which is which until after the listening test.


Ideally the measurement results shouldn't be shared until after the listening tests because the mere fact of there being any differences would influence the testers' expectations.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

The MB Quart OA1100.5 is available to ship if you want to throw it on the test bench and add it to the list..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gstokes said:


> The MB Quart OA1100.5 is available to ship if you want to throw it on the test bench and add it to the list..


everything is already set up :/


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> everything is already set up :/


How many did you end up with?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

NIck, I`m sure you overwhelmed with it but read this
it explains statistical part of the test very good.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> How many did you end up with?


15

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Earlysport (Jul 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> measured tests are about to start. this was just a test run. it is being done by playing pink noise from my computer, to the amps, then to a voltage divider where it is measured with REW. graphs are smoothed to 1/48th because it will be nearly impossible to see any differences with no smoothing. interesting response here. anyone care to guess the amp?


I'm guessing a broken amp or test method (signal or measurement) 

No functioning amp has a 20-20k frequency response that varies by more than a few volts let alone 20+ dB.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Earlysport said:


> I'm guessing a broken amp or test method (signal or measurement)
> 
> No functioning amp has a 20-20k frequency response that varies by more than a few volts let alone 20+ dB.


This is pink noise. Pink noise response is downward sloping

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## OldSchoolAddict (Sep 23, 2014)

I'd love to send you my USA400 to test with. I've never found an amp that can sound so fantastic on mid and high duty and then turn around and put out enough power to kill two Sundowns with ease on a hot summer day on a 90 amp alternator.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

OldSchoolAddict said:


> I'd love to send you my USA400 to test with. I've never found an amp that can sound so fantastic on mid and high duty and then turn around and put out enough power to kill two Sundowns with ease on a hot summer day on a 90 amp alternator.


your close enough to bring it over and join the test yourself


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## OldSchoolAddict (Sep 23, 2014)

I was thinking that lol

It'd be fun to set up the USA next to a few others while I can't see, to test if I can pick it out of a lineup.

I've only used it on mids and highs like twice, but its tone is cemented in my memory. I might set the ****er up tomorrow and give it a listen in the house.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

What testing procedures did you settle on?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> What testing procedures did you settle on?


simple yet effective ones that we mentioned before. the blind and non blind subjective along with a "score sheet" for each one. then the abx.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> simple yet effective ones that we mentioned before. the blind and non blind subjective along with a "score sheet" for each one. then the abx.


Sounds good, let me know if you want help formatting the sheets.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

So is Victor coming? He said he could identify every amp, I hope he is not just assuming we all take that as fact, I'd like to see him do it.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

schmiddr2 said:


> So is Victor coming? He said he could identify every amp, I hope he is not just assuming we all take that as fact, I'd like to see him do it.


 Please read exactly what I said before kicking ****, will ya?

I`m not coming I`m 2 thousand miles away.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> Please read exactly what I said before kicking ****, will ya?
> 
> I`m not coming I`m 2 thousand miles away.


actually your only 1800 miles..


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

I read that you would be getting your amp back. I took that as a warning to skizeR to prepare for that loss. 

Thousand dollar flight is cheaper than some of those amps you have. 


It seems comparison between cheap and expensive stuff is in every category of technology,


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> actually your only 1800 miles..


 I drove to NY once from here- never again.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

schmiddr2 said:


> I read that you would be getting your amp back. I took that as a warning to skizeR to prepare for that loss.
> 
> Thousand dollar flight is cheaper than some of those amps you have.
> 
> ...


 expensive is relative term. what expensive for me might sounds like pocket change for the next guy.
funny thing, EF prime plastic lens made by canon is quite good, unbeatable for money. but comparing it to 15K Zeiss is retarded, it might not be visible to average joe on 1080p screen but in movie theater difference would be apparent.
Chinese guy can make fun of German tech all day long but it`s them stealing german tech and make Fakes( homage/replica) or whatever clever name they use for stolen tech not another way around. 

Almost as good doesn`t mean just as good. 

Japs make fine pianos but what is the finest? Yamaha not up to Bosendorfer or some of American made. 
But you right only in comparison truth be found.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

schmiddr2 said:


> I read that you would be getting your amp back. I took that as a warning to skizeR to prepare for that loss.
> 
> Thousand dollar flight is cheaper than some of those amps you have.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the same in anything. The pricey stuff that are fine tuned have their purpose and place.

Look at medieum format cameras vs DSLR fullframs. Same thing. They have a place they shine, and many other things make little to no difference.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

schmiddr2 said:


> I read that you would be getting your amp back. I took that as a warning to skizeR to prepare for that loss.
> 
> Thousand dollar flight is cheaper than some of those amps you have.
> 
> ...


i wouldnt expect you to be able to see the difference in a highly compressed youtube video, but good lenses certainly make a big difference


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

I don't think there's a single person still involved in this thread doesn't realize the cost of things are relative, one being their intended use and two what the person considers reasonable cost for an item type.

He used the Zeiss because he states the goal as - not full on movie making - , so he used a lens that some might consider extending their budget for yet by their collective estimation they might not "need". Plus it makes for a more interesting video instead of a $150 vs $500 lens.

Are you sure he's Chinese. I'd say Japanese. Either way I don't think he's diminishing German R/D, just giving a perspective. Nevertheless I'd agree all the copyright ignoring by China is a ***** move.

I don't know **** about Pianos.

Here here for comparison. I don't even buy socks without comparing reviews anymore.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

that moment when you next day air distribution blocks for the test so you dont have to take out the ones from you car, and they send you the wrong ones....


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Ouch. No car audio suppliers near you?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

schmiddr2 said:


> Ouch. No car audio suppliers near you?


well they tried to charge me 18 dollars for a single mini anl fuse last time i was there, so no thanks


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

come to think of it, because of that i went and ordered mini anl fuses from sonic instead, AND THEY ****ED THAT ORDER UP TOO! twice in two weeks? come on. even the **** hole of a car audio internet retailer i work for is better than that


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

Just curious, how many are expected?
Confirmed or Maybe? 
(I, thanks to your generous offer are very close to the confirmed. I can thank most of the weather staying North today. Hopefully it clears out soon.)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

craiggus365 said:


> Just curious, how many are expected?
> Confirmed or Maybe?
> (I, thanks to your generous offer are very close to the confirmed. I can thank most of the weather staying North today. Hopefully it clears out soon.)


i can think of six off the top of my head including myself, with the possibility of more. it would be great if you can come


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> i can think of six off the top of my head including myself, with the possibility of more. it would be great if you can come


I'm doing all I can.
I may or may not be the VHS guy in the lens video though.
I've been around and in audio since 1990, now SQ is something I am trying to achieve, rather than master.


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> well they tried to charge me 18 dollars for a single mini anl fuse last time i was there, so no thanks


What kind of distros do you need? I have two extra audisons... Don't remember the model #. It the ones with neg and pos


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Those can work. I may have it figured out though

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> Those can work. I may have it figured out though
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Let me know... They are sitting right here.. I also have a ton of agu distros  that I'm not using


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## grinkeeper (Jun 26, 2015)

Just found this thread. Great job everyone for the efforts. I truly think that this whole test is way beyond just the exposure of a thread and really needs to be profiled in a blog or its own page. I for one would like to see the details written in a format thats easy to follow. Have you seen the size of the thread already...? regardless Im tuned in with popcorn


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

grinkeeper said:


> Just found this thread. Great job everyone for the efforts. I truly think that this whole test is way beyond just the exposure of a thread and really needs to be profiled in a blog or its own page. I for one would like to see the details written in a format thats easy to follow. Have you seen the size of the thread already...? regardless Im tuned in with popcorn


That's cuz Nick has a way of dragging his ass when it comes to his projects. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That's cuz Nick has a way of dragging his ass when it comes to his projects.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


so painfully true


----------



## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> That's cuz Nick has a way of dragging his ass when it comes to his projects.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Hey why isn't there an art series in this test Bret? keeping them mysterious?


I was so interested in the outcome of this test that I contributed 2 amps to the cause.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

vwdave said:


> Hey why isn't there an art series in this test Bret? keeping them mysterious?
> 
> 
> I was so interested in the outcome of this test that I contributed 2 amps to the cause.


because i have no room or supplies left for more :/ also if i want one i can get one local


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Are you going to do the subjective tests with all 15 amps? If so, that could end up taking a lot of time.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Are you going to do the subjective tests with all 15 amps? If so, that could end up taking a lot of time.


yeah. hopefully it wont take to long


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> yeah. hopefully it wont take to long


Famous last words!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

danno14 said:


> Famous last words!


lol :laugh::laugh:


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> yeah. hopefully it wont take to long


If you're testing each person on their own, here's an optimistic estimate:

(15 amps x 2 min tests + 5 min between runs) x 5 testers x 2 for blind/non-blind = 350 min, rounded up to 6 hours

If the ABX test only takes 1.5 min for each test then that's about 140 min. 

Adding in some realistic overage on those totals along with meal and bathroom breaks gets you to around 10 hours with only 5 people.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> If you're testing each person on their own, here's an optimistic estimate:
> 
> (15 amps x 2 min tests + 5 min between runs) x 5 testers x 2 for blind/non-blind = 350 min, rounded up to 6 hours
> 
> ...


dont remind me lol


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> dont remind me lol


That's why I recommended doing the ABX first then only using the third of amps that were able to be identified most often for subjective.

(5 amps x 2 min tests + 5 min between runs) x 5 testers x 2 blind/non-blind = 150 min so only 2.5 hours vs 6


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> That's why I recommended doing the ABX first then only using the third of amps that were able to be identified most often for subjective.
> 
> (5 amps x 2 min tests + 5 min between runs) x 5 testers x 2 blind/non-blind = 150 min so only 2.5 hours vs 6


not a bad idea. ill plan for that, then ask the testers tomorrow and if theyre ok with staying longer, we can go from there


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

vwdave said:


> Hey why isn't there an art series in this test Bret? keeping them mysterious?
> 
> 
> I was so interested in the outcome of this test that I contributed 2 amps to the cause.


I offered and it was rejected. :mean:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I offered and it was rejected. :mean:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


you also going to send another switcher, 30 feet of speaker wire, 10 feet of power wire, and a distribution block with it? lol


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> you also going to send another switcher, 30 feet of speaker wire, 10 feet of power wire, and a distribution block with it? lol


Not my problem.
I'm not the one goofy enough to attempt this. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm IN!
I worked through torrential rain, and thanked the GoreTex gods for their contribution.
I will PM you for the details.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

craiggus365 said:


> I'm IN!
> I worked through torrential rain, and thanked the GoreTex gods for their contribution.
> I will PM you for the details.


Woooo hoooo! 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

My luck really can't get any worse. One of the switches fried a few hours people were supposed to come. Ughhhh

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## OldSchoolAddict (Sep 23, 2014)

Damn


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Murphy's Law, enough said.

I'd just be praying to the audio Gods that none of the amps get damaged, I mean that's thousands of dollars worth of amps, some of which aren't easy to come by. 

Still looking forward to the results though, no matter how many weeks, or dare I say months it takes.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Sorry to hear about the fried switch. Can it be easily repaired/replaced?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so, today was a bust. turns out the switches cant handle more than a few watts for more than a few minutes -___- looks like ill be saving up for victors switch. **** man. i can never catch a break. craig didnt get my message in time and still came, but instead of doing this we just worked on and tuned his car instead, so he didnt come for nothing at least. it was nice meeting another guy from diyma and hanging out for a bit. so, that being said. it might be ANOTHER couple of weeks (**** my life). if any of the people who loaned an amp would like theirs back, that is fine. just let me know. ill take a video of it proving it works and ship her back, on my dime of course.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea, I'm gonna need mine back. 

That said...
If you actually get a chance to test the setup _before_ you try to schedule folks to come over to do this, and you find it works, give me a shout and if I can I'll send mine back to you. I don't mind loaning it to you but if you're not sure how this stuff is going to physically work then it concerns me that my amp may get damaged. I know you said you'll cover it, but there's no sense in risking that. Work out the kinks... find some ABX gear that works, you set it all up and get it working, then let me know. If I can, I'll send it back to you.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

My install won't be happening until next year so don't worry about returning the sinfoni and LP.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> Yea, I'm gonna need mine back.
> 
> That said...
> If you actually get a chance to test the setup _before_ you try to schedule folks to come over to do this, and you find it works, give me a shout and if I can I'll send mine back to you. I don't mind loaning it to you but if you're not sure how this stuff is going to physically work then it concerns me that my amp may get damaged. I know you said you'll cover it, but there's no sense in risking that. Work out the kinks... find some ABX gear that works, you set it all up and get it working, then let me know. If I can, I'll send it back to you.


everything was working fine for the past few days. but i didnt play an amp consistantly through a channel for more than 30 seconds or so, and at low volume. switcher just couldnt handle the power. PM me your address again


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

Just so everyone can rest easy.
I live 2 hours away and the "Houston we have a problem" PM came when I was 1/2 way up there. Needless to say I showed up anyway to his surprise, your amps are all ok.
I never saw so much beauty in one room.
Skizer helped me (DSP N00b) tune my car, nice guy and I never sounded better.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Bummer. You can keep mine for now.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

You should take my Audio authority switcher instead when I offered.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> You should take my Audio authority switcher instead when I offered.


i know :/ is it still available?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

The Boston GT-2125 I sent you is in it to the finish.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i know :/ is it still available?


Yes it is.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

To be honest I sent the most beat up one I own so I'm not worried. Keep it as long as needed for the test. Good thing I never came out for the Yankees and the test. You and them have been getting your butts kicked!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> To be honest I sent the most beat up one I own so I'm not worried. Keep it as long as needed for the test. Good thing I never came out for the Yankees and the test. You and them have been getting your butts kicked!


baseball is boring anyway lol


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> baseball is boring anyway lol


On T.V. I agree... a lot of the time.

The overall experience of attending the games - fans, the food, the crowd noise, seeing the players, and the overall traveling experience is what I'm about.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Theslaking said:


> On T.V. I agree... a lot of the time.
> 
> The overall experience of attending the games - fans, the food, the crowd noise, seeing the players, and the overall traveling experience is what I'm about.


thats actually very true.


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

I love the $10+ beers!


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

That stuff happens. 
No worry's here how long it takes is how long it takes. I wish could help you out.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> baseball is boring anyway lol


 As any team sport.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> Yes it is.


 NIck, just give me 250 and it yours.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Pitmaster said:


> I love the $10+ beers!


they give you a better drunk vs some of the cheaper ones.. (making an expensive amp joke here. ill leave now)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> NIck, just give me 250 and it yours.


deal


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> deal



here, problem solved.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Nick hang onto my amps until they sell or the test is done (within reason). I'll let you know if I sell one and the buyer wants it immediately.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i posted pictures..
> 
> pyle PLMRA430BT (gotta throw in a garbage one)
> PPI 900.4
> ...


Is this still the current list to be tested?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> Is this still the current list to be tested?


yup


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm ready for another road trip SkizeR!


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## Timelessr1 (Feb 12, 2010)

Do you still need my distros? And wiring?


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

When are you doing the test?? When do you suspect results will be ready for us to see once test is done?


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

He's not. 
He sold all the amps on Craigslist....suckers. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Just wasn't planning on it being delayed again. After that day I didn't have another free weekend for a while

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> Just wasn't planning on it being delayed again. After that day I didn't have another free weekend for a while
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Delayed/postponed doesn't mean cancelled. So is there a possibility it could happen at some point or did you send the amps back? There was a few on that list I was quite curious about hearing the results. I'm sure I'm not the only one.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Arete said:


> Delayed/postponed doesn't mean cancelled. So is there a possibility it could happen at some point or did you send the amps back? There was a few on that list I was quite curious about hearing the results. I'm sure I'm not the only one.


Still have the amps. I may just do the testing myself as a subjective review. It's getting way to overwhelming trying to organize everyone. Like I said, that weekend was my last free weekend for a while 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i hate to do this, but i dont think ill be doing this. im in no position to do so right now. maybe ill take a listen of a few for some subjective listening, but honestly, i hardly have enough motivation to get out of bed in the morning, let alone keep going with this. Anyone who sent an amp will be getting a PM soon. Sorry guys


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Just compare the PPI and the HD amps.  Very popular and at the opposite ends of the spectrum as far as price.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I would pick a handful of the ones that you most expect to have some kind of noticeable character for whatever amount of testing you do.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Don't sweat it bro. I'm sure regardless of the test results many are still going to back their favorite. The fact that you made the attempt to see for yourself and took the time as well as investing money deserves respect.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Damn, came all this way just to shut it down now?


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

He's got a lot on his plate.
Sucks but knowing all that I know I support his decision.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Can someone perhaps take over? 

I too like Arete ...The PPi vs the JL HD, would be a good interesting one.

Sorry to hear that this is not happening.


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## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

Send them all to me.

For real


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

TaylorFade said:


> Send them all to me.
> 
> For real


I might have to make the drive over if this happens.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sorry i had to do this guys. maybe i can still get my own subjective review like i said, but life is beating me to death right now and im ready to lose my ****ing mind and i dont feel like im in a position to try organizing this again. i feel like i owe you guys at least an explaination.. my mental health has always been slim to none from "depression" and anxiety, but it has its ups and downs. right now, its the later. a lot of **** happening all at once and frankly, its draining me. like i just had 12 paid days off of work and only left my room a few days. whatever. ill deal





TaylorFade said:


> Send them all to me.
> 
> For real


this is actually a good option.. for those of you who dont know since hes not active on here, Taylor Fade is a great guy and can handle this no problem. just look him up. Amp testing is what hes known for


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

TaylorFade said:


> Send them all to me.
> 
> For real


I think passing the torch to Taylor or someone else who has the time and resources is a great idea. My two amps can stay with the group until at least early next year.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SkizeR, don't sweat it…it was an ambitious project you took on and sometimes things just don;t work out the way we want them to. For instance, I have several diesel truck exhuast manifolds that I want to test myself with a homemade manometer but have not had the time/energy to pull it together now for over a year. ANd the results would be really useful AND cool for people who buy these for diesel applications. 

That said, the Boston GT2125 I sent to you can stay in for a few more months or even sent to someone else as long as they are a reputable member and it is mailed with insurance.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thanks guys. let me contact a few of the others and see what they think


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

There are people you can talk to to work through the tough parts, and if need be, try some herbal approach for helping the situation. There are some known homeopathic herbs that clinically make a difference. Also some phamra grade stuff if need be. Life is too short to avoid the assistance and clarity an outside perspective can bring. 

I openly offer you my time and experiences with anxiety and dealing with situations. I state it here as I think like in audio appraoch, a group, multi prong effort in a safe place with only constructive feedback is a great way to fast track yourself into a new and vital outlook.


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## w00tah (Feb 5, 2006)

Depression sucks. If you need an ear, I'll gladly listen.  I know what it's like personally to try to deal with it alone. 

Cheers,
Kef


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

I spent many many years trying to get my depression under control with and without medicine, whether pharmaceutical or natural, before I found the right drug and dosage to keep me in the right space for the past few years.

I'm finally stable enough to really progress on a good track and hope to ween off at some point but am in no rush to do so now that I've made peace with being medicated after feeling so much better.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

Nick, as I said privately, I'm here to talk if you need someone. I use car audio as my stress relief but talk go on a project like this was bound to add stress. Just make sure you take care of yourself first, this stuff will all be here when the time is right for you.

I'll have to take my amps back for now, but I'll always have amps to add for the test, when you are ready. Might be other PG amps, maybe PPI, or who knows what else, but it will be old school class A/B.

So just take care of you for now. Relax, talk to a professional, talk to any of us that have offered to help, and don't stress stuff like this. It's just a hobby anyways.

Peace.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks guys. 

is anyone up for me sending their amps to Taylor Fade. Hes more then capable and is a great guy who we all can trust. plus there are also some members down by him who can also help. Dave, ill get yours sent out soon


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

TaylorFade said:


> Send them all to me.
> 
> For real


Do you think you can organize an blind subjective test with many participants?
Do you have the time, place, equipment, help ETC to do it? How much time would you need?

Captianobvious did a great job with a blind test a few years back, I found it to VERY interesting (i can't find the PDF ) have you seen it, taking on something like this on is pretty involved.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> Do you think you can organize an blind subjective test with many participants?
> Do you have the time, place, equipment, help ETC to do it? How much time would you need?
> 
> Captianobvious did a great job with a blind test a few years back, I found it to VERY interesting (i can't find the PDF ) have you seen it, taking on something like this on is pretty involved.


he has PLENTY of tools and experience with this. mostly with sub amps though. but there are plenty of guys in the south on here that im sure are willing to go through to join. im just not in the right place to do it right now, plus im being forced to take them elsewhere, or send them back.


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## craiggus365 (Apr 5, 2009)

1fishman said:


> Do you think you can organize an blind subjective test with many participants?
> Do you have the time, place, equipment, help ETC to do it? How much time would you need?
> 
> Captianobvious did a great job with a blind test a few years back, I found it to VERY interesting (i can't find the PDF ) have you seen it, taking on something like this on is pretty involved.



TFade is more than meticulous with this type stuff, although he is SPL oriented. Don't let the SPL fool you, it will be legit, and I'm glad he offered.
I'm secretly cursing him since SkiZer was 2 hours drive for me and Taylor is 1/2 the country. :mean:


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

You can send mine to Taylor.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

So with Nick bowing out, and TFade possibly stepping in, I think those of us tracking this thread should give serious consideration to what has been done in other "large test" threads such as this: There's going to be a chunk of shipping of amps around the country, either back to their owners or to TFade for testing, then back home. I don't suggest Nick should bear the cost for this with whatever he has going on, and I would imagine Taylor shouldn't either. Should we set something up so people can contribute what they are comfortable with, to assist in the shipping?


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

I would definitely be interested in going to this. I am about 4 hours away from T-Fade.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Don't worry about cost. I got it covered.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Hey Nick, I thought it over and I'm going to pass on sending my amps to Taylor.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> Hey Nick, I thought it over and I'm going to pass on sending my amps to Taylor.


gotcha


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Go ahead and send mine over to Taylor.


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Did you get the signal switcher that can handle enough power?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Catalyx said:


> Did you get the signal switcher that can handle enough power?


yeah, but im still going to give it to taylor if hes down


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

Updates?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Updates?


shipping stuff out soon.


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> shipping stuff out soon.


Where?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gckless said:


> Where?


either owners, or taylor fade. still have to send out some PM's which i will get to tonight


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## TaylorFade (Nov 9, 2014)

For those still following this thread and especially those that have amps in the mix...

I've offered to take over for Nick. I fully realize the logistics involved in a large amp roundup such as this- it's not my first, but I usually only deal with objective testing because I like to eliminate variables. I'll include output testing, but I know you guys just want to know how they sound.

For anyone that doesn't know me... as was mentioned, I'm primarily an SPL competitor. I'm much more active on other forums where I can be of more help to those who need it. For anyone concerned, I have plenty of iTrader elsewhere, but if you don't feel comfortable sending your amp along to me, I will take no offense. 

Anyway... just thought I'd pop in and give an update. I suppose I can start a new thread with an introduction and open it up to discussion/suggestions.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Taylor beat me to it. to all those who lent an amp or two, you will be getting a PM shortly. I just couldnt do this anymore. a lot of few life changing things just popped up the past few weeks and as of right now, i wont be able to do this. Taylor is definietly able to handle this test, and i know there has to be some people on here near him willing to go listen. Thanks


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

I know taylor fade is very active over on caraudioclassifieds if you guys wanted to check him out? I have never dealt with him nor do I know him, but I have never seen anything negative said about him and he has dealt with a lot of people.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Any word on the amp testing with T Fade


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

1fishman said:


> Any word on the amp testing with T Fade


hes in the middle of measured testing now


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> hes in the middle of measured testing now


Awesome! Looking forward to reading about this.


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