# Simple, cheap, and effective door treatments



## npdang

Here's a list of some easy and affordable door treatments that I've found to greatly improve the clarity, as well as the total bass output and low end extension of your mid/bass. If you're using high quality drivers in the doors, proper treatment and install is a must.

First thing's first. Make sure to sound deaden your door. This will make the largest difference in reducing annoying rattles. Make sure to do both the inner panel and the outer panel. Use a good 2 or 3 layers. A heat gun or even a hair dryer can be used to soften the deadener up for making it more moldable and easier to apply. Find a good asphalt based mat that is cheap, easy to work with, sticks well under room temperature, and doesn't fall off in extreme heat. I use and recommend Raamat which you can find here: http://www.raamaudio.com/ 
60 sqft of deadener should be more than enough for 2 doors. 

As for liquid sound deadeners, I don't use them for a simple reason. They take forever to apply! You would need to clean your door, then apply a single coat. Allow it to dry, then apply another coat. With thick coats and bad weather, it can sometimes take up to a full day to dry between layers. I'd save the liquid deadener for hard to reach places, or for areas where mat doesn't stick easily such as the roof of the cabin or trunk. In my experience, the effectiveness is about the same as a decently thick asphalt based deadener.

Also, you can sometimes reduce annoying door mechanism rattles by applying a bit of thick grease to the part.

The next thing I like to do is seal up any large holes in the door panel. Doing this very noticeably increases the bass output. I like to use plexiglass since it's somewhat cheap and weatherproof... and also looks nice. It's also much sturdier than trying to stretch sound deadener over a large hole. Cut out a piece that fits your hole, use a bit of silicon, liquid nails, or other thick adhesive/sealant and then slide it in. These panels can be easily removed with a screwdriver worked into the edges if maintenance on the door is needed.

Next, I glue a large sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker location. These do hold water, so you may want to treat it to avoid mold growth. It won't rust your door however, since the foam sits on top of the sound deadener. If you live in a more humid climate, you could use a "Deflex" pad which is sold here: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-242 

You should notice a slight improvement to your midrange. For me, the egg carton foam was a bit more effective than the Deflex pad.

Last but not least, buy ~2lbs of non-hardening modelling clay and a small sheet of 3/4" or 1/2" mdf. Cut a ring or baffle for your speaker to sit on. Place about 5mm tall height of clay on both sides of the ring. Now mount the speaker to one side of the ring, and the ring to your door. Decoupling the speaker from the actual door itself will further reduce vibrations, and clean up your midrange and bass. As an added touch, I like to add a bit more clay around the baffle in order to add weight to the area and further dampen any vibrations.

3/4" mdf baffle with non-hardening modelling clay atop.









Seas Excel w18 with non-hardening modelling clay around the baffle.

















Notice the plexiglass + liquid nails which was used to cover the hole in the door panel. Also, notice the 3 layers of deadener on the outside door panel through the glass.









Sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker.

















Deflex pad behind the speaker.









Shot of my trunk lid with asphalt based sound deadener applied.









Shot of my trunk with about a 4mm layer of liquid deadener applied.


----------



## minitruck_freq

how firm will the modeling clay get? i just read over on ECA that when hot it can drip :?: is it similar to play-do?


----------



## kappa546

cool article.... i was just going to make a thread on eca about where to get modeling clay but i guess i'll ask here. why use non hardening as opposed to hardening?


----------



## npdang

It does get soft and putty like when hot, but these pics you see have been in my car for over a year and a half. I couldn't imagine it getting hot enough to drip.

You can buy non-hardening clay at any arts and crafts store. I think the hardening kind gets dry and brittle which is why you want the non-hardening.


----------



## kappa546

well i was planning on laying a coat of liquid deadener on top of them anyways so that shouldnt be a problem i dont htink. thanks


----------



## Eastcoast

*modeling clay...*

Once you scew the speaker down doesn't all the clay just squish out anyway??

I agree on the deflex pads...they made a huge difference in my doors. My doors get water in them so I decided not to go with the foam.


----------



## 10K2HVN

npdang,

when you used expanding foam for your trunk, did you use hard-drying (cracks and holes) or soft-drying foam (window frame)..?


----------



## npdang

The clay does squish out when you screw it down, that's why you don't screw it down all the way  I like to leave 3-5mm of clay on each side of the mdf baffle. 

I also use the soft expanding foam in my trunk lid... I know the hard one can wrinkle your lid if you use too much. Either way, fill your trunk in small amounts at a time and let it fully dry before adding more... I learned the hard way and tried to dump 3-4 cans in at once and it took months to dry... all the while leaking the entire time.


----------



## 10K2HVN

npdang said:


> I also use the soft expanding foam in my trunk lid... I know the hard one can wrinkle your lid if you use too much. Either way, fill your trunk in small amounts at a time and let it fully dry before adding more... I learned the hard way and tried to dump 3-4 cans in at once and it took months to dry... all the while leaking the entire time.


lol..thats what it says on the instructions...

did you ever get that stuff off your paint?


----------



## npdang

10K2HVN said:


> npdang said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also use the soft expanding foam in my trunk lid... I know the hard one can wrinkle your lid if you use too much. Either way, fill your trunk in small amounts at a time and let it fully dry before adding more... I learned the hard way and tried to dump 3-4 cans in at once and it took months to dry... all the while leaking the entire time.
> 
> 
> 
> lol..thats what it says on the instructions...
> 
> did you ever get that stuff off your paint?
Click to expand...

Lol... gonna have to repaint my bumper.


----------



## DS-21

Honestly, this thread is one of the finest car audio pieces I've ever read in terms of concrete and effective ways to improve the sound quality in ANY car. However, one question:



npdang said:


> Next, I glue a large sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker location. These do hold water, so you may want to treat it to avoid mold growth.


I'd never thought of doing that, but it would certainly be a much cheaper (and IMO no less effective) treatment than Black Hole 5 or Deflex. What kind of treatment would prevent mold without stiffening the foam unduly?


----------



## squeak9798

DS-21 said:


> I'd never thought of doing that, but it would certainly be a much cheaper (and IMO no less effective) treatment than Black Hole 5 or Deflex. What kind of treatment would prevent mold without stiffening the foam unduly?


I too would like to know what products can be used to avoid having the egg crate mold or hold too much water.


----------



## npdang

I'd try using a closed cell acoustical foam like such:

http://www.soundprooffoam.com/closed_cell_foam.html


----------



## drocpsu

how do you think this stuff (wit the peel & stick backing) would work? 1/8" thick, but is supposed to be great. granted, its really expensive. Seems like it could be great for doors or trunk lid to add mass and give some good soundproofing at the same time.


----------



## raamaudio

My first post here guys Great site, I should of joined sooner!

Most excellent thread and thanks for the props, I do have a couple of comments for now though

1) Our product is now butyl based just like the big dogs, has been for some time now.

2) I use Ensolite foam behind the speakers instead of a Deflex pad or the egg crate stuff, it works rather well and costs practially nothing for such a small piece. 

3) We, my son is now a part of what we do, are fellow enthusiasts first, business second, we love car audio and performance and will do all we can to help others achieve thier goals, wether or not you buy from us does not matter in the least, we are here to help

Thanks, have a great day!
Rick


----------



## goskers

I purchased a roll of the mat 60 from Raam Audio and they were very responsive. Very quick shipment which is always a nice thing to see 

I haven't received the roll for installation yet but it should be here by the end of the week.


----------



## hornyforhorns

Instead of using regular sound deadening mat, would using non hardening clay to fill up the holes in the doors and layer the doors have the same effect as the mat? I figure the non hardening clay will do the same purpose of sealing up the door, adding mass, and reducing vibration. What do you guys think about this idea??


----------



## goskers

Filling small holes and divots in your doors with clay sounds like a pretty darned good idea to me. If you just filled in the low spots with clay, applying your actual door treatment would be easier as you would have to conform to a lot less terrain.


----------



## vibrator

anyone have a favorite liquid deadner? I was thinking of picking up a 5 gal bucket of SS spectrum for $150 (seems like a good deal) to spray on my floor and in the trunk. Anyone know how effective this stuff is?


----------



## npdang

Liquid is ok... it's about the same effectiveness as mat but it can be easier to apply in some areas (like the roof or floor). I generally don't recommend it because it can be a chore to have to paint one layer, let it dry for half a day, paint another layer, on and on... whereas mat you just slap it on and you're done.


----------



## kappa546

i loved the spectrum i bought. works well, its easy... and contrary to what everyone else is saying mine dried pretty damn fast, just work outside on a hot day. i would paint one door, go to the other and i could jump right back to the other as it was pretty dry by then.


----------



## 10K2HVN

yes, my spectrum dried fairly quickly too..faster then eD liquid crap! even if their newer products look better, i will never buy another product from them again. :x 

anyways..

just added egg crate foam behind my mids!

cut to shape and cut small so they can fit through the door holes easily, then coated with A1 Fabric Shield and let to dry inside the car on a sunny day. When coating the edges, i overlapped to pieces so that i didnt waste any overspraying..








installed!








life of a speaker..









i also added 2 more square feet of Second Skin Damplifier (reg) to the outer panel of each door (near the locking mechanism) - i thought i might as well because i had the panel off...

Before: 1 to 2 layers of Damplifier Pro on outer panel, 1 layer on inner panel (door holes not pluged yet - need to get more dampener).

After: 1 sheet of egg crate foam on top of 2 layers of Damplifier reg/Pro on outer panel, and 1 layer on inner panel (door holes not pluged yet).

Subjective: Im not really sure if it was the extra 2 sq ft of dampener on the opposite side of the door from the speaker but i feel it made a pretty impressionable difference! The door sound much closer to NpDangs car with the mids sounding like theyre in a small monitor enclosure and less like theyre in a door! Bass, midbass and midrange sound more defined, cleaner and puchier. the change in overall sound also effected the staging/imaging. Staging and imaging raised and also were more defined.

I also tried opening the windows with the glass directly behind the woofer. its seemed to revert back to when i didnt have egg crate foam inside. midbass got a little harsh and uncontrolled.. so then i tried it with the windows half way down, leaving the glass clear of the back of the woofer and it still sounded good! i thought, maybe the difference in how much the window was open affected the sound so i opend the back windows to compensate but it still sounded good!

so in the end, i feel it made worthwhile difference! 

heres my midbasses in case anyone hasnt seen it yet..









Goodtimes!


----------



## minitruck_freq

where did u get the a1 fabric shield?


----------



## 10K2HVN

i got it from A1 Foam & Fabrics since theyre kinda local.. but maybe you can find something online..? (i couldnt find A1 online)


----------



## PlanetGranite

Wow! This thread just keeps getting better and better! Great stuff here guys!


----------



## minitruck_freq

does the thickness of the foam matter? i have several sheets of 3/4" and 2" foam. not sure which to use. :? and would any spray sealer work? as long as the foam stays soft?


----------



## 10K2HVN

i would think any sealer would work as long as it stays soft..

id say use what you can fit.


----------



## jdrockafella

npdang: this is great because I have a 5th gen accord like yours. Where did you put your tweeters in your install?
also, you had plenty of clearance even with a .75" spacer? I made mine last night and wasn't sure if it would have enough clearance. Any other tips on the accord?

raam: emailed you before I saw your post about some ensolite, looks like you might get that $$ back.


----------



## cam2Xrunner

jdrockafella said:


> npdang: this is great because I have a 5th gen accord like yours. Where did you put your tweeters in your install?
> also, you had plenty of clearance even with a .75" spacer? I made mine last night and wasn't sure if it would have enough clearance. Any other tips on the accord?
> 
> raam: emailed you before I saw your post about some ensolite, looks like you might get that $$ back.


Refer to this thread.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3


----------



## BBOYSTEVIE

Great info here...thanks.

My doors are already deadened, but I'm trying to isolate and kill leftover rattles before putting in my Seas speakers and ribbons, so a few more questions. 

First off, I have plenty more raamat and some ensolite on the way, so if more deadening is the answer, that won't be a prob (once it gets here). I've also ordered deflex pads.


First off, even though I'm here to ask a question, I wanted to point out that this stuff worked for me well as a final layer http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDU...ID=ccehaddekifmdelcgelceffdfgidgln.0&MID=9876 Maybe someone else may want to try it and get back to us.

After a few layers of the liquid stuff, a few layers of raamat, and a layer of this duct insulation, I still have some "locatable" rattles as well as the sound of pressure inside my door when bass hits....not as much a rattle as a overarching thug in there when bass hits.

First off, the grease didn't work for the door latch part. Any other recommendations? Theres definately some noise coming from this area.

Second....has anyone tried drilling a few small holes in the door to reduce that pressure. I'm talking about holes towards the not where the air will go back into the cabin, but outside. I was thinking about this on the edge of the door towards the back of the car...seems like theres plenty of possible "ventelation spots" that wouldn't let air in the cabin area or water in the door. 
I feel like the less sealed the door is (and thus the more exposed it is to the outside world), the less of that thud that will occurr. Anyone tried this?

Finally, what is the ensolite for? Is this going to make the doorpanel (when I lean on it) seem deader, like it's not vibrating inside?

Thanks for any help/suggestions.


----------



## demon2091tb

Ensolite is an acoustical sound barrier, makes things quieter on the inside from the outside, things like road noises and road rumble. Also Makes things quieter on the outside like music and all to pedestrians and whatnot.

Not sure of the exact amount of db drop though of before and after of road noises.


----------



## low

great site.

hey vin, how is it when you roll down your windows? does it rub against the foam? umm..wanna deaden some bimmer doors?


----------



## xDeLiRiOuSx

Just thought I'd post my results too!

Thanks the Npdang's guide, I've dramatically reduce my rattling on the door panels. Thanks to Rick (raammat), who made raammat affordable! Here's what my doors look like now!

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45

Take a look at page 4 near the end. You'll see pictures of my accord coupe door (1994). 

David


----------



## 10K2HVN

low said:


> great site.
> 
> hey vin, how is it when you roll down your windows? does it rub against the foam? umm..wanna deaden some bimmer doors?


i just trimed the top so it doesnt touch the window anymore..

sure, i dont mind at all..! its not like the G35 doors where theres only a speaker hole is it..? :shock: 

the only problem is that after you coat the foam with fabric protectent its suppose to dry before you apply it..

you can order the foam from www.partsexpress.com then i could pick up the A1 Fabric Shield and A1 Adhesive (i ran all out). then when you come up we could try to do it all in one day.....?


----------



## newtitan

dude your doors are REAALY long LOL


man I need to hear these seas mids everyone keeps raving about

nice pics 

here are my doors wiht some bquiet ultimate (last year stuff) wish bxt raamat was out when I did my doors since its soo muh thicker and I could have used less oh well next car 


and there is mat under the orignal jute carpet (I just removed it--added mat--then glued it back on--thought it couldnt hurt)










and with my old IR8's (that I really miss )











on my new install I used foam between the metal and the wood much better !!


still havent tried deflex pads yet 

next time I go in my door


----------



## simplespirit

I see a lot of people deaden the inside walls of the outer door skin. How do you get your hands in there to properly cover the skin?


----------



## ludlamtheory

simplespirit said:


> I see a lot of people deaden the inside walls of the outer door skin. How do you get your hands in there to properly cover the skin?


you hire some midgets so crawl in there

or

you just cut your mat into little pieces and do it little by little


----------



## MiloX

10K2HVN said:


> ...its not like the G35 doors where theres only a speaker hole is it..? :shock:


HEY!!! I resemble that remark! Actually, I was thinking the same thing when I took the panels off my G for the first time... How in the hell am I going to deaden the outer skin???? 

*sigh*


----------



## xDeLiRiOuSx

Wow a G35 owner  I really like the looks of that car, did you get the coupe? Anyway, Could I see a picture of your doors? I'm not sure I can imagine what "just a speaker hole" means.

Can you install Pearless 8" in it? (4" mounting depth)


David


----------



## MiloX

Dave, 

I'll post some pics when I take the door panel off again. I have a sedan. I know, much more sedate than the coupe. But I just love the "sedan-ness" of it. EMBRACE THE SEDAN. 

Plus, the 300 ponies mated to the 6MT ain't so bad!

The mounting depth is 3 13/16"

At least according to the math I did in this post:
http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55764


----------



## MiloX

Oh.. and there is a BIG access panel in the door. Nissan did us a favor by skinning over all of the holes. It just needs to be removed to access the window mechanicals.


----------



## xDeLiRiOuSx

Cool! Personally I would get the coupe w/ the MT but that's the sedan looks much more classy. People say I look/act too mature for my age, hence a coupe will improve my image too 

Please take some pictures when you get a chance, I would love to see how the doors are structured.

David


----------



## dennisp

Hey yall, nice site btw. 
Anyways, I'm about to properly deaden my doors and I have some questions.
How thick of plexiglass should I use? Should I use wood instead?
Here's the hole to give yall an idea. 


Also, here's where my mid goes. I threw out the stock plastic speaker holder for obvious reasons.

I'm thinking I should use mdf but not sure what thickness would be sufficient. There's going to be an mdf spacer mounted on top of the baffle that covers that hole.
I have spectrum on the way for the outer panel and deflex pads here so that's already covered.
Thanks yall.


----------



## cam2Xrunner

You are planning on deadening the outer door skin aren't you? That part is VERY important.


----------



## dennisp

yah, that's what I meant by outer panel. sorry about the n00b terminology.  
also, what do you use to cut plexiglass? I've heard it chips when you use a jigsaw sometimes.


----------



## daitrong

use a finer thread blade :wink:


----------



## raamaudio

Shsshsshsss, here are a few techniques I use when setting up a car I plan to race alot and have to be very carefull with weight control so channot just mat the hell out of it, just do not tell anyone, lol!

1) Large unsuported body panels, i.e. qtr panels on 2 doors, inside doors with speakers in them. 
I use very thin wall aluminum channels mounted horizontally, they have to be bent to conform the area the are mounted to, I do this from outside the car so I can see what I am doing. I mark where I want them inside the car, then on the outside, match them up and when I get them all done, go inside and install them. Usually about every 4-6" apart, as long as I can possibly get them to fit. 
I bond them to the area with double sided commercial glazing foam tape, not easy to find. This does give a little which is acceptable, preferable really, just enough to keep from warping the exterior of the car, expand and contract without breaking free, etc. 
Next I apply vertical strips of mat over them, depending on the area, results I need, etc, I may have them 2" wide spaced 3-5" apart, up to 3-4" wide spaced 4-5" apart, whatever seems to be needed, hard to just tell somebody this, I have done many tricks over the years and it takes experience to guesstimate this correctly. 
I may add more channel right behind the speakers and more mat then a layer of ensolite at least 12" sq in that area as well. 
Next I evaluate and then beef up the speaker baffel area, usually 1/8" guage channel, has to be bent to the shape needed, I may just use one diagonal piece or several, depends on the area, access, one or two midbasses, etc. 
Once fitted I use the double sided tape again then self drilling screws and drill through the inner door metal and into the channel(channel is inside the door On occasion I may have to weld a couple of pieces of the channel together, I suck at aluminum so have it done but all they have to do is weld, I bring it attached to an alignment jig. 

In the end, this is alot more work and the results are not alot greater than just using whatever mat and foam I would otherwise but I can save several pounds per door. I look at the whole car concept and do exactly what is needed in each area of the car to get job done.

------

Our current project car will see alot of SCCA autocross action against M3's, STI's, etc, we have to do a great deal of work to control every once of weight and where it is located to get our desired results, this project will take at least 200 hours to fully deaden and we will have approx a 10 lb weight reduction over stock instead of weight gain. We removed all factory deadening and caulking aready, working on seam welding the chassis, and this is one I did to my Tacoma, messy and expensive.

We are filling every pillar, crossmember, frame rails, etc, etc, with an expensive two part eurathane foam, several days worth of prep, will spend somewhere between $600 to $800 on materials, several more days worth of cleanup and cleaning out mounting areas for the trim pops, seatbelts, etc. 

This will dramatically stiffen the chassis and will reduce road noise significantly as well. 

Do not tell everyone what we do, they may start doing this as well and buy less of our mat J/K, I have shared this with dozens of people but only a couple ever do something as anal as this. 

We are doing may other things for weight control, relocating some, expensive body part replacement, etc, etc, in the end we will have a full interior, comp audio system(15"sub) better balance than stock and weigh in at approx 150lbs less than a totally stock car. If we pull the sub and amp rack out, rear seats and seatbelts, we will still met the rules for Street Mod class and then be around 250lbs lighter than stock, going to try to race it effectively with the audio gear in the care, want to bump some heavy bass, play some Audiophile music, etc, while we race, lol!

Rick

Rick


----------



## demon2091tb

Hot damn......I hate you rick...........When we gonna get some more pics of the tC, i'm excited to see how much you've done with it, went and picked mine up at the dealer the other day and OMG i'm loving this car. Gonna hopefully start running some wiring soon and gonna hold off of deadener for a few more weeks.


----------



## raamaudio

Pics, lol, I am really bad about that, to busy most of the time having fun working on a project or running my business. 

The tC is a very well made car and for the most part deadened nicely from the factory but they just plain screwed up in a few key areas, primarily the sides after the doors, big noise problems there but easy to fix, once that is done then general deadening everwhere else and does not need a ton of materials, depending on your desired results, to make it a nice quiet ride. 

Rick


----------



## OldOneEye

Not sure if I'm being a total newb, but for people reading this and heading down to Home Depot/Lowes to get some foam, the foam you are talking about is a pretty specialized foam not available usually in stores, correct?

Remember reading an article where they discussed a two part foam they put into the channels on my car (a Nissan 200SX) that run beneath the door. Fill them with a two part foam (a foam that doesn't require air I guess to cure, get that stuff from the hardware store and the ends exposed to air will cure, sealing air out from the middle that won't cure at all. 

Juan




raamaudio said:


> Shsshsshsss, here are a few techniques I use when setting up a car I plan to race alot and have to be very carefull with weight control so channot just mat the hell out of it, just do not tell anyone, lol!
> 
> We are filling every pillar, crossmember, frame rails, etc, etc, with an expensive two part eurathane foam, several days worth of prep, will spend somewhere between $600 to $800 on materials, several more days worth of cleanup and cleaning out mounting areas for the trim pops, seatbelts, etc.
> 
> Rick
> 
> Rick


----------



## MIAaron

There are automotive mastics that do the same thing. It's actually cured by heat. You just have to be very careful how much you apply because it can deform sheet metal when cured. Even structural components like pillars.


----------



## Halonix

Is the clay really necessary? Could you just make a "gasket" out of rubber or foam or something?


----------



## AzGrower

npdang said:


> I'd try using a closed cell acoustical foam like such:
> 
> http://www.soundprooffoam.com/closed_cell_foam.html


Since Rick (Raam Audio) is a member here and I use his products with great success, just a side note to say he also sells closed cell foam. Its known as Ensolite. He gives a nice price on those.


----------



## cam2Xrunner

I think I'll be using a combination of those two choices. Ensolite between the door and the door panels, also between the headliner and the roof. The thicker 1/2" closed cell foam lined on the inside ofthe outer door panel as well as the floor under the carpet. Then use a egg crate type foam directly behind the speakers(or ensolite)

1/2" closed cell foam should decrease more roadnoise than the 1/8" thick ensolite foam. They both have their places in my install.


----------



## xfree

how to stick egg foam to the metal? do you still use board between the metal and foam or directly foam with the metal using adhesive?
and whaqt kind of adhesive did you use.. 
sorry for the ignorance..


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

npDang....

http://order.americanmicroinc.com/cgi-bin/americanmicroinc/ord/basket.html?
mv_action=refresh&mv_order_item=MIN0504X6GRY


Which is better for my doors, the Acoustical type or Soundproof type. One is a flat faced sheet, the other is a "egg carton" faced sheet. Thet both will do the same, I think, but which of the two would you recommend. My doors are currently fully dampened. I will be going with, most likely, the Seas Excels 8". 

Thanks, Pete


----------



## Derek

petenyc?


i'm loving the results of the closed cell foam in the doors....


----------



## daitrong

xfree said:


> how to stick egg foam to the metal? do you still use board between the metal and foam or directly foam with the metal using adhesive?
> and whaqt kind of adhesive did you use..
> sorry for the ignorance..


3m adhesive spray


----------



## minitruck_freq

3M Super 77 adhesive spray. it will glue your kids stuffed animals to cabinet carpet too.


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

Hey, 

I just received today my Acoustical "Egg Carton" Foam from the website you have listed above, shown in the link below:

http://www.soundprooffoam.com/convoluted_studio_acoustical_foam.html

I noticed that you said getting the "closed cell" foam. But I also noticed that you did say and show pictured the "egg carton" type as I purchased? 
Which is better? Did I buy the right one? I'm putting it in all my doors, behind the midbass drivers and mids in the kicks (Is this OK?) My ddors are very well dampened as well. 

Woudl it be appropriate to put this anywhere else? I have a 4' X 8' sheet, so I can throw it wherever you tell me, if it helps! Also, is the egg carton type I bought as good as the closed cell? Should I just glue down the egg carton sheet to the doors over the Dynamat? 


Thanks for your help! 
Pete


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

Hey Derek, LOL

What are you following me around? LOL

Yeah, this is PeteNYC. Found this forum... are real good place! Really enjoty it and learn a lot here. 

I bought that "egg carton" stuff, and got it today. Hope it's as good as the closed cell stuff. Will be putting it in my doors that are already dampened. I posted a link above this reply of what I bought. 

Is it good for behind the drivers in already dampened doors? 

Oh yeah, my installer, who is ridiculous SQ related, is trying to get me to buy DLS 8.3 midbass's. They're like $600 a pair, just for the mids!. They come from the DLS Iridium 3 way set. 

They say all the big competition cars have them. Also, offers a 3.5 inch depth and a 4 ohm rating, always good. What have you heard on them?


Nice to see you here, Derek!!!
PeteNYCGoesBoom!


----------



## GMo

Most standard open cell (the egg crate) have slightly better sound absorption characteristics than closed cell as per thickness. I don't think there would be a noticeable difference though, especially in a car.
The benefits of closed cell over open would be closed are more dense and more rigid generally. Which leads to higher strength characteristics, they also have a higher thermal resistance and much higher water and vapor resistance (also to mold, mildew, etc..). Usually, a better UV resistance as well.


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

So, then the "egg crate" sheet I bought will do the job just as well as the closed cell foam? I mean. if my shhet (egg crate) is "open" cell, than that would be the opposite of "closed" cell. That would lead me to beleive, being opposites, it shouldn't be good!

Just a thought though. I have seen the same stuff in npdang's car, so if it's good for him, it's great fpr me!

I was just making sure I am getting the best results possible. I bought the sheet I got because npdang recommended it, and shave seen it in his ride. 

Thanks for your help!
Pete


----------



## GMo

PeteyGoesBoom said:


> So, then the "egg crate" sheet I bought will do the job just as well as the closed cell foam?


Yes 
For acoustical properties, the egg shell is going to be somewhat better than a standard closed cell of the same thickness.
From post 23 onwards and you'll see that 10K2HVN used some protectant on his foam which is very similar to what myself and others have done to protect the foam from vapor, water, mold, etc..
But standard egg crate is an effective and cheap way of absorption of mid to treble frequencies.


----------



## Derek

i just liked not having to treat my closed cell.....

and as well as solidifying up my midbass response....it killed a lot of road noise as well....


----------



## PeteyGoesBoom

I have a full 4' X 8' egg crate sheet. I'll be putting it in all my doors, on the entire back panels of the doors. Why not, I have it! 

Would it help to put it in the rear hatch? I knwo there are no speakers physically in the rear hatch as the front doors, but maybe it'll at least help with road noise, excessive rattle. etc. My rear hatch is very well dampened as well.

What do you guys recommend as far as a protectant/sealer for the foam against moisture, etc? Also, what do you use to glue it down? Any glue would be fine? It has to glued onto the Dynamt surface, so what is appropriate for this?

Thanks. Pete


----------



## mojako

what about this? deflex pads from madisound


----------



## |Tch0rT|

I'd like to say that Peel N Seal works good. I just got 75 square ft. at a local Lowe's for a little over $66. It's very easy to apply and a few layers got rid of a lot of rattles. This is my first experiance with sound deadening, I'll never get it last now! heh 

Ryan


----------



## demon2091tb

How would you all suggest redampening my doors, I have a piece of aluminum flashing over my access holes (screwed in with self taping screw) with deadener and ensolite on top of it.

I wanted to order another roll of Raammat and redeaden the interior of my doors as well as putting another layer on my outter door skin, and deaden my panels suffeciently as well. After getting into the door and adding the deadener/eggshell foam combo, how would you suggest deadening over the ensolite already on the door face? Make a sandwitch layer, or would that not work well enough? Or would you just suggest ripping the ensolite off, and reapplying it, (i do not want to waist my ensolite).

Also how would you suggest to getting the door to be as resonant and rattle free as possible, the plastic panels that is. My doors are resonating at 90hz as it seems.


----------



## SteveH!

hey rick, it's me steve. i was wondering if you could post pics of how you did channels in the door skins.. you gave a good explanationbut picd would help big time.


----------



## MarkZ

Halonix said:


> Is the clay really necessary? Could you just make a "gasket" out of rubber or foam or something?


Unless I'm unclear about the purpose of the clay, you could instead use that black gunk that they use to put windshields in. Most auto parts stores have it. I bought a pack that was beaded and came on a big roll of tape. It keeps, remains somewhat soft but sturdy. The downside is that it'll stain your fingers and upholstery, so be careful.


----------



## fuscobal

After reading this thread i have some questions for you guys :

1) Is that 'egg carton' a sponge ?
2) After 2 layers of dynamat on outer skin, 2 layers on the inner metal skin (one inside the door and one between the metal and the plastic face of the door ) and 1 mineral wool layer over dynamat, between the metal skin and plastic face, i've got absolutely no rattles but, it still doesn't sing like a home wood or MDF enclosure. Sometimes, on some tracks, i can hear the enclosure 'singing'. I think theese are resonances inside the enclosure. Would the egg carton solve this problem ?
3) I've also heard the egg carton isn't efficient on low frequencies ( under 500Hz or so ) and its absorption properties are not linear. A home acoustic engineer recommends the mineral wool as being much more efficient than the sponge. What do u have to say about this ?


----------



## jtholley03

"it, it still doesn't sing like a home wood or MDF enclosure"

 

Wiat till you see the approach I am taking! I will post pics when I get some of it done.


----------



## sigma6

We don't have any of this 'non-hardening modelling clay' here, or that kind of arts & crafts store.* Is this stuff actually clay, as in dirt? Or is it something more like a plasticine?
Would something like a glazing mastic do instead? I'm guessing that the important thing the mass your adding around the driver and that's it's coupled to the door...

I'm making some new, beefier baffles to mount my new MW-64s so want to go the extra mile.





*Though I can buy Bennic caps at my local electronics store for $1.50 a pop...


----------



## AzGrower

sigma6 said:


> We don't have any of this 'non-hardening modelling clay' here, or that kind of arts & crafts store.


you do have the postal service right...then try Ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.com/PERMOPLAST-MODE...608999333QQcategoryZ92150QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## chuyler1

I'd like to add a little to this thread. Most people end up trimming some of the plastic on the inside of the door panel to get their aftermarket speakers to fit properly. This opens up space between the door panel and the inner door skin (where you applied on or more layers of sound deadening). It also leaves the panel to vibrate a little more. When I install my speakers, I always add a layer of foam/eggcrate to account for the space between the door and the baffle. This helps dampen vibrations in the panel and it also blocks the sound from resonating in the space between the door and panel. Ok, Ok, I picture is worth 1000 words...


----------



## sigma6

AzGrower said:


> you do have the postal service right...


Out here to asia? Sure we do, but it gets more complicated.  

My buddy is coming out next month with a 12" sub and plate amp for my HT project, a new amp and 2-way front stage for me. If I can find a product even 90% as useful at my local hardware store I'd rather do that. His knuckles are close to dragging on the ground as it is


----------



## NaamanF

Great idea. I am going to be installing ID8s in my rear doors and that should help a bunch.


----------



## bobduch

I just read this again and I don't remember anyone bringing this up:
Use the deadener on the back of your plastic door panel. This might be the resonance some of you are hearing even though you put a ton of deadener on the doors themselves.
World's quietest place:
http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture2.html

http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html

For more info on absorbtion:
http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html
dig around a little and you'll see info on thickness and absorbtion of various frequencies.


----------



## B&K

bobduch said:


> I just read this again and I don't remember anyone bringing this up:
> Use the deadener on the back of your plastic door panel. This might be the resonance some of you are hearing even though you put a ton of deadener on the doors themselves.
> World's quietest place:
> http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture2.html
> 
> http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html
> 
> For more info on absorbtion:
> http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html
> dig around a little and you'll see info on thickness and absorbtion of various frequencies.


Indeed anechoic wedges are the bomb, but that isn't the worlds quietest place. Orfield labs anechoic room in Minneapolis is. -8dbA and that is during the day!! They had to use two $8000 mics and a $30k analyzer to actually measure that low...I helped them with the setup. For proof, see the Guineas Book of Records they are listed as the quiestest place on earth.


----------



## bobduch

I stand corrected. Bell Labs room used to be in the Guiness book as quietest. Have not seen the book in too many years! :blush:


----------



## MattinTheCrown

npdang said:


> Sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deflex pad behind the speaker.


That an Accord? How'd you mount the baffles to the doors? Did you drill holes in the door? If so, do you have to treat that?


----------



## demon2091tb

I used lag bolts w/ nuts that have nylon inserts so they wont back out, through my speaker rings and through the door metal with plenty of washers, seems to work fine, and holds the rings onto the door very very tightly.


----------



## MattinTheCrown

demon2091tb said:


> I used lag bolts w/ nuts that have nylon inserts so they wont back out, through my speaker rings and through the door metal with plenty of washers, seems to work fine, and holds the rings onto the door very very tightly.


So you just drilled the bolt holes in the door? Did you treat the bare metal at all?


----------



## demon2091tb

I treated the metal between the door/deadening/baffles with layers of caulking, with layers of ensolite on them all.


----------



## MattinTheCrown

demon2091tb said:


> I treated the metal between the door/deadening/baffles with layers of caulking, with layers of ensolite on them all.


No, I mean the exposed bare metal due to the drilling. Presumably, that would rust unless you put a little primer on there.


----------



## BigBassBrent

I just joined today because I wanted to say thanks to chuyler1 for posting the tip about wrapping your you baffle with foam. 

I have been installing my system in the truck for a couple weeks now and I finally finished with the front doors. When I was done I had some bad resonances and wasnt happy with the sound. Even with almost a roll of RAMMat and lots of ensolite on both doors. So I took a 3" wide strip of ensolite, doubled it over and stapled it around the baffles I made. The speaker is now "sealed" to the plastic door panel grill, so to speak. The results were astonishing. I am now very happy with the sound of my components. 

Thanks, this forum is great.



chuyler1 said:


>


----------



## khail19

BigBassBrent said:


> I just joined today because I wanted to say thanks to chuyler1 for posting the tip about wrapping your you baffle with foam.
> 
> I have been installing my system in the truck for a couple weeks now and I finally finished with the front doors. When I was done I had some bad resonances and wasnt happy with the sound. Even with almost a roll of RAMMat and lots of ensolite on both doors. So I took a 3" wide strip of ensolite, doubled it over and stapled it around the baffles I made. The speaker is now "sealed" to the plastic door panel grill, so to speak. The results were astonishing. I am now very happy with the sound of my components.
> 
> Thanks, this forum is great.


Welcome to the board! And thanks for posting that, I've been wanting to do this myself. So many tweaks, so little time.


----------



## demon2091tb

MattinTheCrown said:


> No, I mean the exposed bare metal due to the drilling. Presumably, that would rust unless you put a little primer on there.


Laytex caulking for exterior door trimming/windown trimming, put it on the bolt/nut screw and then screw it in, or put in on the whole first before you start screwing/bolting it in. If done right it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## demon2091tb

Oh yea and silicon.


----------



## John Scaro

I need some info on deadners. RAAMmat, Second Skin, E Dead, the list goes on. Well which is better and why? Is there any that I should stay away from? 

Thanks!


----------



## Whiterabbit

jump on google and search out the sound deadener showdown. Won't tell you which is better but it'll tell you on a mass basis how much material you are getting for your dollar and how well it'll stay stuck to your car.


----------



## John Scaro

Whiterabbit said:


> jump on google and search out the sound deadener showdown. Won't tell you which is better but it'll tell you on a mass basis how much material you are getting for your dollar and how well it'll stay stuck to your car.


Great read Whiterabbit, Thanks!


----------



## Ultimateherts

So should we use a heat gun when applying the sound dampener?


----------



## bumpnzx3

most of the time- no. assuming it's a descent temp outside- you should be fine w/o it. I let mine sit in the sun for a little bit to soften it up some if need be.


----------



## Whiterabbit

butyl wont. I find applications on a dirty door without heat at 11 pm using butyl products like SS or raam have no problems with adhesion loss.

But I had asphault failures after cleaning a door and using loads of heat to the asphault melting point just to get it to laminate to begin with.






Another trick I like to use to help bulk up my door and thin my use of expensive dampers is to use clay or products like Liquid nails (I like a 3M product that is advertized as an 'instant grip' construction adhesive).

I note that my doorpanels are far from a flat surface. I can spend time cutting my deadener into ever smaller pieces to lay within the crevices, layer up to flatness, then lay damper across the door to achieve flatness, or I can fill the cavity with the adhesive products or clay then lay one layer of damper over to seal it in.

I use clay in places I fear I might have to remove product later to recover from failed components, and the adhesive where I don't mind permanence.

Any place where the adhesive may remain exposed by mistake or leak out over time, or become exposed unknowingly by failue will harden and reseal the cavity.

Tubes of this stuff can be very reasonably priced, and cases cost less than rolls of damper.

great way to fill in small spaces, stiffen panneling, and level surfaces without spending extreeme money on liquid dampers. Stretching my budget for sheet damper and foam.


----------



## Dan

I noticed a few of you mentioned that you use a filler i.e. clay, adhesive to smooth your door panels to a flat(er) surface before applying the sound deadener. What is the point of making your panel completely flat? Is there even a percievable difference in sound quality by doing this?


----------



## chuyler1

It is just to add more mass and stiffness. The raammatt/dynamat loses its affect if it is not stuck directly to the metal. For cavaties in the panel that the mat will not go into you might as well fill it with something so the mat can lay across and adhere to something. The fact that it smooths out the face of the door panel has no effect on sound.


----------



## Whiterabbit

but it sure does make applying all that deadener so very much easier


----------



## Ultimateherts

Well I started doing my doors a few days ago and I ended up just buying a $30 Milwalkee heat gun from Home Depot. 

So far it has been a very wise investment because I live in Massachusetts where the temperature is not quite as warm this time of year as other areas. 

It has made things a whole lot easier than going without so this might be a good investment.


----------



## fredridge

I am going to work on my doors tomorrow morning and have a couple questions.

1. Do I need to worry about Deflex pads if I am using ensolite? Should I just put extra behind the speakers?

2. I am thinking of using some type of screen and then covering it with bxt, any thoughts?

3. Just to be sure, I should do each door trim panel correct?


4. Any other suggestions?


----------



## Rudeboy

fredridge said:


> I am going to work on my doors tomorrow morning and have a couple questions.
> 
> 1. Do I need to worry about Deflex pads if I am using ensolite? Should I just put extra behind the speakers?


An extra layer or two behind the speakers should get the job done.



fredridge said:


> 2. I am thinking of using some type of screen and then covering it with bxt, any thoughts?


Perforated sheet metal works well. I just use aluminum flashing, self tapping screws and silicone caulk to seal up the holes.



fredridge said:


> 3. Just to be sure, I should do each door trim panel correct?


You definitely won't hurt yourself doing it, but it really depends how resonant they are. At least as important is to use some Ensolite to gasket the trim panels to prevent them from rattling.



fredridge said:


> 4. Any other suggestions?


Don't mat over mounting holes. Don't go so close to the edges of the doors that you can't get the trim panels back on.


----------



## cronic

hey guys. I am currently working on the doors of my 1973 Toyota FJ-40 and have a few questions. I am in the process of applying 2 layers of damplifier to the inside of the outer door skin and 2 layers to the inside of the inside door skin. I will also be closing up the 3 holes with aluminum and cover them with damplifier as well. I feel like I need something to line the inside of the doors to improve the acoustics of the door. Whatever material I use will have to be water resistant and not soak or hold water. Unless I am missing something that really narrows it down to a closed cell product such as Overkill or Ensolite. Which is better? Are the both just a neoprene product? Since the doors will be the enclosure for my scan speak 18w mid bass speakers I want to treat them as good as possible to get the best mid bass. What do you guys suggest for this application?


----------



## Rudeboy

cronic said:


> hey guys. I am currently working on the doors of my 1973 Toyota FJ-40 and have a few questions. I am in the process of applying 2 layers of damplifier to the inside of the outer door skin and 2 layers to the inside of the inside door skin. I will also be closing up the 3 holes with aluminum and cover them with damplifier as well. I feel like I need something to line the inside of the doors to improve the acoustics of the door. Whatever material I use will have to be water resistant and not soak or hold water. Unless I am missing something that really narrows it down to a closed cell product such as Overkill or Ensolite. Which is better? Are the both just a neoprene product? Since the doors will be the enclosure for my scan speak 18w mid bass speakers I want to treat them as good as possible to get the best mid bass. What do you guys suggest for this application?


They are slightly different in texture, density, etc., but I don't think you will see much difference in performance.


----------



## cronic

Thanks for the heads up on the differences. What about this stuff for lining the inside of the doors. I like the fact that it has an adhesive backing. What do you guys think?
www.ebay.com
Item number: 290189378373


----------



## Rudeboy

cronic said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the differences. What about this stuff for lining the inside of the doors. I like the fact that it has an adhesive backing. What do you guys think?
> www.ebay.com
> Item number: 290189378373


I'd avoid just because of the statement: 


ebay seller said:


> SIMILAR TO DYNAMAT PRODUCTS, OFFERING GREAT SOUND PROOFING PERFORMANCE AND INSULATION AT A FRACTION OF THE COST, SO YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TO SACRIFICE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE EVER AGAIN!


BS like that would keep me a long way away. Dynamic Control sells a similar product, but suggesting that this stuff is a replacement for Dynamat is absurd.

Elemental Designs sells something similar or the same - 1/4" closed cell with a PSA. I'm skeptical of using a PSA in this application. Contact cement is most often used for this. Hard to believe that a PSA on one surface only will work as well.


----------



## hari-bhari

i used the foam egg crate thing for a while and then decided to switch to deflex. big mistake. i feel like my mid output dropped by half. im switchin back to the foam. funny how the cheap stuff works better.


----------



## jacka

i noticed the same thing


----------



## chongl

They only problem I see for myself is that the egg crate foam is open cell. Is there a closed cell version (does Ensolite have the same effect)?


----------



## Rudeboy

chongl said:


> They only problem I see for myself is that the egg crate foam is open cell. Is there a closed cell version (does Ensolite have the same effect)?


Egg crate foam is going to effect a little broader range of frequencies than 1/8" Ensolite or products like deflex pads. You can probably treat open celled foam with something like Scotch Guard to water proof it, but as critical as that is for in-door use, it will reduce the materials effectiveness.

It is easy to understand why delex pads do so little, but I really can't see how using egg shell foam could possible increase output from your mids unless the front and back waves aren't sealed off from each other. I think I'd put more energy into creating an effective baffle.


----------



## circa40

Try ED's V4. Its 1/4" closed cell foam with adhesive backing. I lined the insides on my front doors and they haven't fallen off yet.


----------



## hari-bhari

Rudeboy said:


> Egg crate foam is going to effect a little broader range of frequencies than 1/8" Ensolite or products like deflex pads. You can probably treat open celled foam with something like Scotch Guard to water proof it, but as critical as that is for in-door use, it will reduce the materials effectiveness.
> 
> It is easy to understand why delex pads do so little, but I really can't see how using egg shell foam could possible increase output from your mids unless the front and back waves aren't sealed off from each other. I think I'd put more energy into creating an effective baffle.



i see what you are saying, but i did everything listed on the first page, including 3 layers of deadener, mdf ring, clay, and plexiglass for the large holes. i had the foam in for about 8 months and just switched to deflex and i noticed a significant drop. my doors used to THUMP with the bass, and now not nearly as much. but just as a sidenote, if you have sealed off the speakers front and back properly, there shouldnt be any difference between foam/deflex and using nothing at all. but there obviously is some difference, so perhaps something is not accounted for. at any rate, going back to my cheap mattress pad foam next week! if anyone wants two 7" deflex pads let me know!


----------



## Bollwerk

What about this?
http://www.foambymail.com/Wedge.html


----------



## ZoNtO

hari-bhari said:


> i used the foam egg crate thing for a while and then decided to switch to deflex. big mistake. i feel like my mid output dropped by half. im switchin back to the foam. funny how the cheap stuff works better.


Can you describe this in more detail? I have a couple 7" deflex pads I was planning on using...


----------



## FoxPro5

Open cell foam---

OCF (open cell foam) is known as a broadband absorber and works by giving the sound wave a labyrinth/matrix to try to "fight" through. Technically, the absorption in an OCF occurs due to gas flow resistance in the cells. The higher the resistance, the more the matrix converts the sound energy to heat. OCF does it's job better the further away from the sound source it gets because the particle velocity is higher. 

How much sound will a OCF absorb? That depends on 5 major things:
1) Absorber thickness
2) Flow resistivity
3) Cavity depth
4) Starting Frequency
5) Angle of Incidence

So, obviously there is no quick and easy answer here. What you really have to do is objective lab tests to get an honest answer. However, if you are a super nerd and want to try to model absorbtion ability of an OCF, then you could use this: http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Porous.html

OCF can be a good product for a door as far as absorbtion goes, but it's not cut out for the environment. So, like others have suggested, you'd have to treat the foam for water. I think Focal figured this out with their BlackHole5 product. It's a multi-composite product that probably wouldn't work as well with out the fifth element which they refer to as _"thin diamond pattern embossing, densified with polyurethane film surface."_

Focal claims that film surface _"improves dramatically the performance of the whole acoustical system, especially the lower mid-bass frequencies, (very sensitive range where simple acoustical foam becomes mostly ineffective). _ And they aren't BS'ing either, because if you look at the NRC values for an untreated foam vs a treated foam, clearly there's a nice difference on the low end:








Reference: http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf

One reason why OCF might be a poor absorber in your car door is because it's too close to the back of the driver. The particle velocity is less, thus absorption will be less. IME, OCF very close to the driver "chokes" it off and makes it sound horribly muffled. My thought is that the foam is "stealing" the air from the cone and affecting it's mechanical compliance. I have no data on that, it's just my theory. 

Closed cell foam ---

You will not find a lot of absorption data on CCF (closed cell foam) because it's a lousy absorber, plain and simple. CCF's do absorb some sound, but they diffuse more. It is the wrong tool for the job, essentially. Remember, an absorber must convert the sound energy to low level heat. IF CCF diffuses most of the sound away, then how effective could it be??

Here's some actual ASTM figures for room reverb and decay given as NRC (noise reduction coefficient) for a 1" thick CCF. Notice how poor it is on the low end compared to fiberglass, but how much more sound fiberglass (an open matrix) is in the upper frequency band.








Reference: http://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/catalog/WP-ClosedCellFoam.pdf

In reality, the best CCF will do is diffract sound or act as a blocker. However, it's also bad at that as it's usually so lightweight. Mass law dictates block-ability. Unless you have a very dense form of CCF that has some mass to it, it's probably not the right tool for the job as a blocker 

What CCF is really good at is in thermal applications (notice the source of the link above?) as it's a good heat reflector. In industrial and commercial apps, they use CCF for thermal wraps (hot or cold). And you can also use CCF for its thermal characteristics in your car.


----------



## FoxPro5

And if that info wasn't enough and you'd like to compound your headache even more, consider the following.

OCF - good absorber, poor diffusor
CCF - poor absorber, good diffusor
Deflex [CAE] like pads - poor absorber, good diffusor

As a general rule, it's safe to say diffusors absorb more than absorbers diffuse. Thus, CCF can offer some benefits in our vehicles where OCF can't. Here's why....

OCF absorbs sound the best and diffuses very little. If you want more absorption lower on the frequency range out of OCF, increase thickness. If you want more diffusion out of OCF, treat the surface. 

CCF absorbs very little and diffuses a lot more than OCF. However, if you look at the testing of CCF's it may appear that they absorbing. In fact, they are diffusing or scattering. A scattered wave is not an absorbed wave. If you want more diffusion out of CCF, increase weight.

Deflex pads are made from a low derometer polyurethane rubber [think: your wife/GF's favorite play toy ]. The angles on the surface are designed to diffuse and scatter sound, not absorb it. Polyurethane rubber is a poor absorber. If you want more diffusion out of a Deflex pad, increase angle of incidence (see above.)

At the end of the day, you need the right tool for the job.


----------



## gsr22

so all in all is it best to use a deflex pad or eggcrate foam or_____ behind the speaker


----------



## FoxPro5

Since it seems the points I was trying to make were overlooked, I guess I'll try an appeal to authority:



> What about the cheap stuff?
> 
> Egg crate foam is the worst there is. It's almost like using nothing.


http://www.zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html

I'd say 90% of the members here can benefit much more by building a proper baffle (which is not easy) than trying to absorb or diffuse the backwave. Just my $.02.


----------



## Rudeboy

FoxPro5 said:


> Since it seems the points I was trying to make were overlooked, I guess I'll try an appeal to authority:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html
> 
> I'd say 90% of the members here can benefit much more by building a proper baffle (which is not easy) than trying to absorb or diffuse the backwave. Just my $.02.


That point can not be overstated. Wasting your time unless you start with a decent baffle.


----------



## Bollwerk

Pardon my n00b question, but does the word baffle only describe something like this - http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=speaker+baffle&i=237XT65 or does it also refer to the MDF "spacer" rings that many people use? (such as the pics in the original post)

Seems confusing to use the same term for both things. Maybe I'm just easily confused. =)


----------



## Rudeboy

Bollwerk said:


> Pardon my n00b question, but does the word baffle only describe something like this - http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=speaker+baffle&i=237XT65 or does it also refer to the MDF "spacer" rings that many people use? (such as the pics in the original post)
> 
> Seems confusing to use the same term for both things. Maybe I'm just easily confused. =)


Those foam things don't really count - at least they don't work terribly well. Think of a baffle as separating the energy coming from the front and back of the speaker. Those MDF and other rings are part of a baffle that includes them, the sheet metal to which they are mounted and any sound deadening, etc., that you add. The foam things try to be a baffle in themselves but are to flimsy to do much except protect the speakers from moisture.


----------



## WrenchGuy

DS-21 said:


> Honestly, this thread is one of the finest car audio pieces I've ever read in terms of concrete and effective ways to improve the sound quality in ANY car. However, one question:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd never thought of doing that, but it would certainly be a much cheaper (and IMO no less effective) treatment than Black Hole 5 or Deflex. What kind of treatment would prevent mold without stiffening the foam unduly?


Use tent and tarp spray.


----------



## Ge0

Here is a new cheap and effective door treatment:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=397995&postcount=62

Yep, I'm a fuggin nut case...

Ge0


----------



## rockondon

Ge0 said:


> Here is a new cheap and effective door treatment:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=397995&postcount=62
> 
> Yep, I'm a fuggin nut case...
> 
> Seems common around here.
> 
> 
> Ge0




BTW I like the foam ring around the speaker. I'm guessing it butts up to the door. ?


----------



## Ge0

rockondon said:


> BTW I like the foam ring around the speaker. I'm guessing it butts up to the door. ?


Yep, seals off the gap between driver and door skin. This helps separate the front wave from the back wave.

Ge0


----------



## rockondon

Ge0 said:


> Yep, seals off the gap between driver and door skin. This helps separate the front wave from the back wave.
> 
> Ge0


Like you i went nuggin futz on mine.
1.5 layers on the outer. Then Ensolite.
1 layer on the inner skin.
Used some 1/4 plastic cut to fit the holes.
1 more layer. Then Ensolite.

Plastic panel has silacone pushed into cracks where pieces are joined.
Add a little deadner on top.
Added a med/density foam rubber spacer between panel and door.

Voila! One tight box. Without rattles.
------------------------------------------------
Not cheap or easy. Just depends on the expected results.


----------



## tommyd

Yes, ensolite stopped all door panel rattles that I had. Unfortunately I didn't have enough to go around and now the overhead console rattle  Maybe if I fill all the compartments with clay and BB's....hmmmmmmm


----------



## chuyler1

rockondon said:


> BTW I like the foam ring around the speaker. I'm guessing it butts up to the door. ?


Check out post #77 of this thread.


----------



## Ge0

FoxPro5 said:


> Open cell foam---
> 
> OCF (open cell foam) is known as a broadband absorber and works by giving the sound wave a labyrinth/matrix to try to "fight" through. Technically, the absorption in an OCF occurs due to gas flow resistance in the cells. The higher the resistance, the more the matrix converts the sound energy to heat. OCF does it's job better the further away from the sound source it gets because the particle velocity is higher.
> 
> How much sound will a OCF absorb? That depends on 5 major things:
> 1) Absorber thickness
> 2) Flow resistivity
> 3) Cavity depth
> 4) Starting Frequency
> 5) Angle of Incidence
> 
> So, obviously there is no quick and easy answer here. What you really have to do is objective lab tests to get an honest answer. However, if you are a super nerd and want to try to model absorbtion ability of an OCF, then you could use this: http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Porous.html
> 
> OCF can be a good product for a door as far as absorbtion goes, but it's not cut out for the environment. So, like others have suggested, you'd have to treat the foam for water. I think Focal figured this out with their BlackHole5 product. It's a multi-composite product that probably wouldn't work as well with out the fifth element which they refer to as _"thin diamond pattern embossing, densified with polyurethane film surface."_
> 
> Focal claims that film surface _"improves dramatically the performance of the whole acoustical system, especially the lower mid-bass frequencies, (very sensitive range where simple acoustical foam becomes mostly ineffective). _ And they aren't BS'ing either, because if you look at the NRC values for an untreated foam vs a treated foam, clearly there's a nice difference on the low end:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reference: http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf
> 
> One reason why OCF might be a poor absorber in your car door is because it's too close to the back of the driver. The particle velocity is less, thus absorption will be less. IME, OCF very close to the driver "chokes" it off and makes it sound horribly muffled. My thought is that the foam is "stealing" the air from the cone and affecting it's mechanical compliance. I have no data on that, it's just my theory.
> 
> Closed cell foam ---
> 
> You will not find a lot of absorption data on CCF (closed cell foam) because it's a lousy absorber, plain and simple. CCF's do absorb some sound, but they diffuse more. It is the wrong tool for the job, essentially. Remember, an absorber must convert the sound energy to low level heat. IF CCF diffuses most of the sound away, then how effective could it be??
> 
> Here's some actual ASTM figures for room reverb and decay given as NRC (noise reduction coefficient) for a 1" thick CCF. Notice how poor it is on the low end compared to fiberglass, but how much more sound fiberglass (an open matrix) is in the upper frequency band.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reference: http://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/catalog/WP-ClosedCellFoam.pdf
> 
> In reality, the best CCF will do is diffract sound or act as a blocker. However, it's also bad at that as it's usually so lightweight. Mass law dictates block-ability. Unless you have a very dense form of CCF that has some mass to it, it's probably not the right tool for the job as a blocker
> 
> What CCF is really good at is in thermal applications (notice the source of the link above?) as it's a good heat reflector. In industrial and commercial apps, they use CCF for thermal wraps (hot or cold). And you can also use CCF for its thermal characteristics in your car.


Nice one Big Gay Al!

Ge0


----------



## elvisjer

Is there somewhere you can get prefab rings? Im bad with wood and without wood working tools except a dremel which is not sufficient to cut rings out. Im in the Seattle area.


----------



## 60ndown

elvisjer said:


> Is there somewhere you can get prefab rings? Im bad with wood and without wood working tools except a dremel which is not sufficient to cut rings out. Im in the Seattle area.


e bay


----------



## Ge0

elvisjer said:


> Is there somewhere you can get prefab rings? Im bad with wood and without wood working tools except a dremel which is not sufficient to cut rings out. Im in the Seattle area.


Throw out a request in the general section. A number of members advertise that they can do this and will help you out.

Ge0


----------



## captainobvious

Excellent guide npdang. Thanks


----------



## jdoug

Excellent thread-- just found it. Glad I didn't start a new one to ask the same thing. 

One question though, and hope I didn't miss it in the last 14 pages-- how much does all this sound deadening typically weigh? I'm all for sound quality, but I'd also like to keep weight down as much as possible (which in a heavy-ass Mustang will probably be amusing to most).


----------



## rockondon

jdoug said:


> Excellent thread-- just found it. Glad I didn't start a new one to ask the same thing.
> 
> One question though, and hope I didn't miss it in the last 14 pages-- how much does all this sound deadening typically weigh? I'm all for sound quality, but I'd also like to keep weight down as much as possible (which in a heavy-ass Mustang will probably be amusing to most).



About what 1 really hot woman weighs. [or less]


----------



## iskone

I don't know if this would fall under the "cheap" compared to ensolite but if you can find it somewhere on sale it'd be a good deal.

I found some foil (possibly mylar) backed self adhesive closed cell foam at Home Depot. It comes in a 12x15' roll for $18. I found it in the ducting section, it's used for duct insulation. Sticks pretty well too, even to pyrex.

Not sure I'd use it since I don't think 1/8" thick foam of any type will do a whole lot but thought I mention it.

Found a link http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...com2froogle-_-product_feed-_-D26X-_-100028603


----------



## hans030390

Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any place to get the egg crate foam in local stores (Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc), or something comparable? How does closed-cell foam compare? What do you use to treat the egg crate (I get a lot of water in my doors) and stick it on the door?

I know some of those have been asked, but I'm at work and don't always have time to browse through the threads.


----------



## LauZaIM

I'm somewhat new to car audio and extreme SQ but, aren't comps built for free air? And, wouldn't it be bad to put such a small speaker in such a huge "box" I deadened my doors but didn't bother with covering the holes and I've got excellent midbass...


----------



## Bluto Blutarsky

LauZaIM said:


> I'm somewhat new to car audio and extreme SQ but, aren't comps built for free air? And, wouldn't it be bad to put such a small speaker in such a huge "box" I deadened my doors but didn't bother with covering the holes and I've got excellent midbass...


 If you would plug the holes you will hear more from the front of the speaker.
You would also notice a pretty dramatic improvement. I did.:blush:


----------



## yermolovd

LauZaIM said:


> I'm somewhat new to car audio and extreme SQ but, aren't comps built for free air? And, wouldn't it be bad to put such a small speaker in such a huge "box" I deadened my doors but didn't bother with covering the holes and I've got excellent midbass...


they aren't built for free air, more like infinite baffle. what it means more is separating backwave from front wave. putting such a small speaker into a huge box will depend on the parameters...


----------



## daGwagon

Sorry if this has been brought up already but i only got a chance to read about half the thread, but from my experience using the expanding foam in trunk lids, quater panels ,etc. it can cause warping of the panels so I've been using the white fluffy stuff that is in "stuffed animals" packed tightly into the same places you would use the expanding foam and i have achieved great results. There is a technical name for it but its not coming to me, but it can be found in the crafts department at Wal-mart or Michaels etc. and a 1 pound bag will do a trunk lid for about $3.oo...

Great forum BTW i have learned a lot.
Gant


----------



## brendan 67

daGwagon said:


> Sorry if this has been brought up already but i only got a chance to read about half the thread, but from my experience using the expanding foam in trunk lids, quater panels ,etc. it can cause warping of the panels so I've been using the white fluffy stuff that is in "stuffed animals" packed tightly into the same places you would use the expanding foam and i have achieved great results. There is a technical name for it but its not coming to me, but it can be found in the crafts department at Wal-mart or Michaels etc. and a 1 pound bag will do a trunk lid for about $3.oo...
> 
> Great forum BTW i have learned a lot.
> Gant


Does it hold moisture?


----------



## Rudeboy

Expanding foam has the advantage of joining the areas it is injected between, increasing rigidity. It requires care, but should not cause damage when used according to directions.


----------



## skeleto

daGwagon said:


> Sorry if this has been brought up already but i only got a chance to read about half the thread, but from my experience using the expanding foam in trunk lids, quater panels ,etc. it can cause warping of the panels so I've been using the white fluffy stuff that is in "stuffed animals" packed tightly into the same places you would use the expanding foam and i have achieved great results. There is a technical name for it but its not coming to me, but it can be found in the crafts department at Wal-mart or Michaels etc. and a 1 pound bag will do a trunk lid for about $3.oo...
> 
> Great forum BTW i have learned a lot.
> Gant


its called polyfill. its used inside of sealed boxes. i slows down sound waves but dont cancel them out, i dont know if it has any effect in open spaces. id be weary of the mold


----------



## daGwagon

I would assume that it would hold moisture and probably mold but if its somewhere that wont get any moisture then you obviously wouldnt have anything to worry about, not to sound like a smart ass ... but trunk lids and quarters and even stuffed in your dash shouldnt pose any problems. IMO i like it a whole lot better than expanding foam b/c of the wole "EXPANDING" part of it...

rudeboy
who reads instructions anway? lol j/k


----------



## sobe_death

That and the foam is more hassle if you ever need to take something apart for repairs and such.


----------



## skeleto

i might have missed it in an earlier post but what exactly does polyfill do in open spaces? ie, dash & quarter panels etc.


----------



## daGwagon

skeleto said:


> i might have missed it in an earlier post but what exactly does polyfill do in open spaces? ie, dash & quarter panels etc.


well im not sure about the technical side of it in open spaces but ive used it to cut down vibrations and to "firm things up"... its somewhat difficult to "stuff" dynamat in to a dash and say door/trunk braces... but like mentioned before in speaker boxes it makes the speaker think it is in a bigger enclosure, and i could be completely wrong but i think it would help cut "standing waves" in certain areas of the car.. someone correct me if im wrong


----------



## Jopop

Okay i read this whole thread and I am very interested in decoupling the speaker from the door to help with vibrations and clean up the sound, (is this similar to using spikes on floor speakers?) 

I hope I'm not polluting the thread right now - but, my speakers are mounted on the outside of the door, in a huge slab of MDF formed to look decent against the door panel - here's a pic:










Now the problem is that the speakers are recessed into the baffle, and the MDF there isn't particularly thick - I'd say maybe 1/4" thick. This is pretty crappy stuff for fixing speakers to.

Does anyone think it would be a good solution to glue a 3/4" ring of marine grade plywood behind the speaker recess part to give screws something to bite in, and then cut another ring of plywood and place it in the recessed part, with material to decouple the ring from the door, then screw the two rings together sandwiching the recessed MDF part between the two rings? 

The outer ring would be rather thin, so the speaker would be surface mounted rather than flush mounted but not sticking out half an inch. Of course the speaker would also be decoupled from the outer ring.. probably with some sort of thickish rubber gasket rather than clay or what i intend to use for the ring (butyl).

Is this plan flawed in any way? Or would it have close to no benefits over the current mounting scheme.

Perhaps another solution would be decoupling the back ring from the recessed part and decoupling the speaker from the recessed part, essentially eliminating the front ring from the scheme above, yielding a cleaner look while still effectively decoupling the speaker from the door and giving it a thicker slab of wood to mount in. I would just drill holes in the recessed part and fill them with butyl in order to decouple it as much as possible, screwing the speaker only to the rear plywood ring, and the screws would just pass right thru the door panel.


----------



## Oliver

well-nuts, do a search here or on web.


----------



## undercover cavalier

Noob question, but in the pictures in the original post, it looks like the speakers stick out quite a bit farther then they normally would. Do the stock door panels usually still fit over the speaker if you do something like this or do you have to make something custom that will fit?

Also, if I did this in my car and decided to get new speakers, how hard is it to get all the clay out?


----------



## Headknocker

What do you spray on the eggcrate acoustic foam to reduce the chances of mold growth?

Would spraying some 3M water repellent do the trick since it would reduce or eliminate water soaking into it for the most part?


----------



## jacka

undercover cavalier said:


> Noob question, but in the pictures in the original post, it looks like the speakers stick out quite a bit farther then they normally would. Do the stock door panels usually still fit over the speaker if you do something like this or do you have to make something custom that will fit?
> 
> Also, if I did this in my car and decided to get new speakers, how hard is it to get all the clay out?


clay isnt too hard to remove, might be a little stiff at first but it should be able to remove most of it


----------



## WrenchGuy

I was toying with non hardening roofing caulk the other day. Its just like puddy when it cures. Could be a clay replacement and less weight.


----------



## mojako

saw this on zaph's website (but pertains to sealed boxes though)



> Egg crate foam is the worst there is. It's almost like using nothing. One potentially good cheaper material is 1/2" thick carpet padding.


http://www.zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html

Does this hold true to doors?


----------



## elvisjer

Hey guys, i just posted about some sound deadening cotton matts i'm looking to maybe market...what do you think?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=530376#post530376


----------



## bumpnzx3

WrenchGuy said:


> I was toying with non hardening roofing caulk the other day. Its just like puddy when it cures. Could be a clay replacement and less weight.


Most of the idea of the clay is it's weight- you want to add mass around the speaker.


----------



## emrliquidlife

bumpnzx3 said:


> Most of the idea of the clay is it's weight- you want to add mass around the speaker.


Whoa, just read through all this. Got my notes. I guess I'm going to give RaamMat the call. So, last thing, people don't like the eggcrate? In my mind it seemed better able to absorb the sound wave. But after midnight, I'm not paying much attention anyway.

E


----------



## bumpnzx3

If you use the eggcrate- spray it with some sort of water repellant (*sp?). Because of a fear of possible mold, I bought a set of deflex pads from partsexpress.com. Some people think they work better than eggcrate/foam, others think the foam is the better way to go. To me- foam seems as though it would work the best. However, my ears probably wouldn't be able to tell a difference between the two- so I just chose the deflex pads and not worry about the possible mold.


----------



## Jopop

You can use scotchguard (sp?). I used silicone spray.. pretty much the same stuff. I don't know if it has made a difference at all though.. but it seems to me i can turn up two notches higher without too much distortion. Probably a psychological effect though  But i do seem to recall it sounded like crap earlier on the volume dial. I can turn it all the way up now and it's good on most tracks.


----------



## Mac

Should I be applying molding clay on the inside of speaker kick panels. They really don't have much mass to them. They are cheap ABS plastic. I added some dynamat to the kick panels which made them sound a fair bit better. Eventually i will make some fiberglass panels but for now they do the job, just not to well.


----------



## Jopop

Mac said:


> Should I be applying molding clay on the inside of speaker kick panels. They really don't have much mass to them. They are cheap ABS plastic. I added some dynamat to the kick panels which made them sound a fair bit better. Eventually i will make some fiberglass panels but for now they do the job, just not to well.


You could always reinforce your existing ones with polyester.. just put a coat or two on the inside. I think your dynamat solution would work better than clay.


----------



## WrenchGuy

Mac said:


> Should I be applying molding clay on the inside of speaker kick panels. They really don't have much mass to them. They are cheap ABS plastic. I added some dynamat to the kick panels which made them sound a fair bit better. Eventually i will make some fiberglass panels but for now they do the job, just not to well.


Liquid Nails.

Spread it on the back of the panel like peanut butter. It hardens up and sturdies it up well.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

I just thought I would add my 2 cents on this. For those of you who live in the south (like me), I wouldn't use that non-hardening clay in the car. I was worried about it melting so I put some in the oven. The oven was set to 200deg. By 155 it was starting to melt (the surface was shiny) and at 170 it was a full on puddle of liquid. Once it cooled back down to room temp it was solid again. People in the northern states may not have this problem though.

Josh


----------



## Rudeboy

JoshHefnerX said:


> I just thought I would add my 2 cents on this. For those of you who live in the south (like me), I wouldn't use that non-hardening clay in the car. I was worried about it melting so I put some in the oven. The oven was set to 200deg. By 155 it was starting to melt (the surface was shiny) and at 170 it was a full on puddle of liquid. Once it cooled back down to room temp it was solid again. People in the northern states may not have this problem though.
> 
> Josh


Great information. 170°F is very easy to reach in a door in sunlight.


----------



## WolfSong

I haven't done the oven test, but I picked up some non-hardening modeling clay at AC Moore last week. When I was in the store it didn't seem very pliable at all, and looked like it was going to be a lot of work to get it soft enough to install.
I left it in the package, sealed and left it in my center console for the day while I was at work. It was actually a very cool day in comparison, 75ish instead of 95ish that we see in the summer. The clay wasn't melted but it was definitely very pliable, to the point that I'd wonder how well it will stay in position, especially with an extra 20 degrees of average heat.


----------



## theRESONANCE

:\ I just used some pure Silicone caulk from home depot. And got some plumbers gap sealer to line every corner of the door that has crevices which air causes whistling noises.

Can anyone recommend ways to rid road noise / Engine noise ?

I hit some of the inner tire humps with Damp pro. I'm going to try to buy some wheel well bondo spray liner next and coat all my tire wells down real well. has anyone done this ?


----------



## ZoNtO

Nope I can say I've never coated my tires with anything...


----------



## rockondon

theRESONANCE said:


> :\ I just used some pure Silicone caulk from home depot. And got some plumbers gap sealer to line every corner of the door that has crevices which air causes whistling noises.
> 
> Can anyone recommend ways to rid road noise / Engine noise ?
> 
> I hit some of the inner tire humps with Damp pro. I'm going to try to buy some wheel well bondo spray liner next and coat all my tire wells down real well. has anyone done this ?


You cant rid engine noise. Unless you want to pull the engine. apply a full barrier to the firewall. Plug all the holes tighter. ect ect.

Use a barrier as high up the firwall you can get.[Inside]
And down to at least where the seats start.
Best is a full barrier.


----------



## aztec1

How can one be sure that the modeling clay is stiff enough to keep the driver from moving the baffle and canceling some of it own output? Or soft enough to actually do the job it was intended to do? It's already been determined that the stuff can change viscosity in heat, what about humidity?


----------



## npdang

I'm not sure what kind of "clay" everyone is using, but I've never had it melt, run, or shift on me. I've opened doors up years later and the clay looks just the same as the day that I put it on.

I don't use clay under or above the baffle any longer, (I like this hard rubber/foam sheeting I found), but I still use it around the baffle as it's heavy and does make a very measurable difference in terms of vibrations and rattles.


----------



## theRESONANCE

imo. Just be safe. use some caulk. i dont know what the difference is.


----------



## capnxtreme

I believe the difference is MASS, which I understood was the whole point of the clay.

I'm not crazy about the idea though--it ain't in my doors.


----------



## theRESONANCE

Hm that makes a lot of sense. but i still wouldn't sacrifice the safety. Isn't that the reason why we use butyl and not asphalt ? 

Anyways, I got probably 20 or so Sq Ft of Damplifier Pro left.. But i'm not sure where to put it. So far i have my front two doors sealed to the max.. I'm not going to get a subwoofer, so my trunk doesn't need deadening. I drive a 4 door sedan. What else should i hit up, my rear passenger doors ? :\ I'm still pissed about the road noise/Engine >:O.. But Hell There's only so much you can do right !


----------



## JoshHefnerX

npdang said:


> I'm not sure what kind of "clay" everyone is using, but I've never had it melt, run, or shift on me. I've opened doors up years later and the clay looks just the same as the day that I put it on.
> 
> I don't use clay under or above the baffle any longer, (I like this hard rubber/foam sheeting I found), but I still use it around the baffle as it's heavy and does make a very measurable difference in terms of vibrations and rattles.


Just an FYI, the modeling clay I tested w/ was from Van Aken. Here's a link to the packaging http://www.dickblick.com/zz332/68/ According to their website this has some wax base to it, and so does not suprise me that it melts....

Josh


----------



## Ge0

JoshHefnerX said:


> Just an FYI, the modeling clay I tested w/ was from Van Aken. Here's a link to the packaging http://www.dickblick.com/zz332/68/ According to their website this has some wax base to it, and so does not suprise me that it melts....
> 
> Josh


Yep, if Van Aken clay gets over 80F it turns to ooey gooey sticky sluge that stains everything it touches with its color dye.

Rumor has it this stuff is the great alternative. Temperature does not affect it:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392811&postcount=15

Ge0


----------



## backotruck

Here is a good closed cell foam option
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_9990000031988011P

I bet you can get them at Sears too, since they own Kmart them. $8


----------



## backotruck

Or actually, to follow up on my follow up...used closed cell foam excercise mats at any Play it Again Sports. Genius!


----------



## splvictim19

very nice man look's great.


----------



## FoxPro5

Keep in mind that if you've done a sufficient damping job on the outer door skin (especially with a quality foil-backed VE damper) you're also thermo-insulating your doors at the same time. Aluminum is a great insulator. I can't believe a well-done door (or even one with a single layer) can reach temps of 150*F or more. Completely naked, I can see that. I have not done any measurements myself, but keep this in mind if you're worried your mass loading clay is going to melt.

Lately, I've been using Kleen Klay with good results. It's a bit more waxy/oily (has castor oil and Vaseline in it) than the other stuff I've used. It's also touch heavier and denser, too. Yay!

I contacted the manufacturer and they said it will start to break down at 105*F and get pretty soft at 120*. The petroleum in the clay will melt at 145*. Keep this in mind.

I've used the Yaley NHMC that Ge0 linked above for awhile and it has been rock solid though hot and cold.


----------



## psykosis

great info.

I'll be doing a full install in a couple weeks, and this will come in very handy.


----------



## hallsc

Nothing to add.....just want to subscribe to this thread


----------



## Rudeboy

hallsc said:


> Nothing to add.....just want to subscribe to this thread


"Thread tools" from the menu. "Subscribe to thread". Done


----------



## hallsc

Tried that, then I went to My Threads, and saw nothing...well, at least not this thread.


----------



## boogeyman

great source of info and ideas


----------



## machinehead

Geo do you still have the BB loaded clay in your doors? how is it holding up?


----------



## Ge0

machinehead said:


> Geo do you still have the BB loaded clay in your doors? how is it holding up?


Just like the day I installed it in one door.

I got futzing around with the other door through mid winter here in Michigan. In the process I think I cracked the clay. The stuff turns pretty brittle in 10deg F weather. A small chunk broke off at the bottom of my speaker rings. I had to bring it inside to warm up, then wait for a day before 40deg F to fix. Did that last week and its going strong.

If you are doing a new install stay away from wax based clay like Van Aiken (what I used) and use the Yaley I mentioned in an earlier post. You won't need to mess with it again. Ask Foxpro5. He told ME about it and uses/used it...

Ge0


----------



## machinehead

Yeah I remember reading about that clay, thats what i shall pick up. Thanks!


----------



## blacksvtf03

npdang said:


> The clay does squish out when you screw it down, that's why you don't screw it down all the way  I like to leave 3-5mm of clay on each side of the mdf baffle.


Are you saying it's almost like a damper??


----------



## gokiburi

npdang said:


> I'm not sure what kind of "clay" everyone is using, but I've never had it melt, run, or shift on me. I've opened doors up years later and the clay looks just the same as the day that I put it on.
> 
> I don't use clay under or above the baffle any longer, (I like this hard rubber/foam sheeting I found), but I still use it around the baffle as it's heavy and does make a very measurable difference in terms of vibrations and rattles.


npdang, what hard rubber/foam sheeting is it that you use instead of clay?

Thanks!


----------



## PsychoZX

Anyone know where to get the yaley NHMC? The link given in the other thread doesn't seem to work anymore.


----------



## captainobvious

PsychoZX said:


> Anyone know where to get the yaley NHMC? The link given in the other thread doesn't seem to work anymore.



Here you go bud 

Yaley Enterprises - Superior Crafting Supplies

Although, it does clearly say in the product description that it IS in fact a wax based non hardening modeling clay.

I picked up some of the stuff from the local craft store. The great thing about the clay is that it is a great way to add mass. Its heavyweight stuff.


----------



## captainobvious

gokiburi said:


> npdang, what hard rubber/foam sheeting is it that you use instead of clay?
> 
> Thanks!



There are two kinds that I'd recommend. I would assume npdang is referring to Volara foam since he described it as ''hard''. It compresses but is not super pliable. The other foam I'd recommend is neoprene. More squishy, and easier to work with IMO.

Foam by Mail, foam products, cushions, mattresses, pillows, seats, sound proofing, memory foams, mattress, pillow,




.


----------



## gokiburi

Thanks for weighing in, CaptainObvious! I actually have some of both from the good old Foam Factory, and will give that technique a try.


----------



## zacjones99

So what thickness of the volara or neoprene foam would be best between the baffle and the door? Should I also use it or maybe a thinner version of it for mounting the driver to the MDF ring? 

Also, I've got raammat/ensolite inside the door and am considering squeezing in a layer of open cell foam on top behind a Peerless SLS 8" for 60-200hz sound absorption. However with another layer of foam there the driver will sink into it a little as it is not a shallow mount driver by any means. I don't know if it would be counterproductive to put any open cell foam in at this point, but I'm willing to try it out if someone has figured out which foam should work the best. Can anyone recommend the best foam for this specific application? I;m not concerned about any of the midrange frequencies in the door, only the low midbass. Geo I'll probably just ask you too as you've probably got some ideas for this already.

And thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread. Some great ideas have come out of it and I've seen great improvements in my doors already. Funny the 7" mini-subs in my doors produced quite a few rattles (I think from the motors and levers inside the door) after I was all done and I was pretty disappointed. I didn't feel like ripping off all the ensolite, deadener, and sheet metal I used to seal off the door, so I just gave up on bass from the doors and decided to settle for two-way kicks. I put the door skins back on a few days later, fired it up and SHAZAM! No more rattles even with the midbass pounding away at full blast in the door. Sounds WAY better than what I had coming out of the kickpanels. I'm still waiting on the 8" drivers, but if I can just somehow keep the doors from rattling with them in there I'll be very very happy...

I haven't even started in on the passenger door yet, so I'm really going to try and kill those rattles in the door this time. If I can accomplish that, then I'll pull the driver's door apart and fix that one too. 

Npdang mentioned thick grease for killing rattles on interior door components, but other than that I haven't really seen this issue addressed here. I wrapped the doorlock rod with ensolite foam and that seems to work pretty well as long as the door is locked. Does anyone else have any tips on killing rattles that are coming from inside the doors? Any fixes would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## captainobvious

zacjones99 said:


> So what thickness of the volara or neoprene foam would be best between the baffle and the door? Should I also use it or maybe a thinner version of it for mounting the driver to the MDF ring?


I typically only use the foam between the driver and the baffle as a gasket to prevent air from escaping. You can do a 1/4" as a gasket and I'd probably use the neoprene, but honestly, either will work fine for that purpose.



zacjones99 said:


> Also, I've got raammat/ensolite inside the door and am considering squeezing in a layer of open cell foam on top behind a Peerless SLS 8" for 60-200hz sound absorption. However with another layer of foam there the driver will sink into it a little as it is not a shallow mount driver by any means. I don't know if it would be counterproductive to put any open cell foam in at this point, but I'm willing to try it out if someone has figured out which foam should work the best. Can anyone recommend the best foam for this specific application? I;m not concerned about any of the midrange frequencies in the door, only the low midbass. Geo I'll probably just ask you too as you've probably got some ideas for this already.


I dont think this is needed honestly. As long as you doors are well dampened and sealed, you'll be fine.



zacjones99 said:


> And thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread. Some great ideas have come out of it and I've seen great improvements in my doors already. Funny the 7" mini-subs in my doors produced quite a few rattles (I think from the motors and levers inside the door) after I was all done and I was pretty disappointed. I didn't feel like ripping off all the ensolite, deadener, and sheet metal I used to seal off the door, so I just gave up on bass from the doors and decided to settle for two-way kicks. I put the door skins back on a few days later, fired it up and SHAZAM! No more rattles even with the midbass pounding away at full blast in the door. Sounds WAY better than what I had coming out of the kickpanels. I'm still waiting on the 8" drivers, but if I can just somehow keep the doors from rattling with them in there I'll be very very happy...


Make sure you get all of the wires in the door wraped up in some ensolite or other thin foam to keep them from vibrating around in the door. Also, try using some foam on the back of the plastic door panel and around any areas that are movable like door handle pockets, window/lock switches, etc.



zacjones99 said:


> I haven't even started in on the passenger door yet, so I'm really going to try and kill those rattles in the door this time. If I can accomplish that, then I'll pull the driver's door apart and fix that one too.
> 
> Npdang mentioned thick grease for killing rattles on interior door components, but other than that I haven't really seen this issue addressed here. I wrapped the doorlock rod with ensolite foam and that seems to work pretty well as long as the door is locked. Does anyone else have any tips on killing rattles that are coming from inside the doors? Any fixes would be greatly appreciated.


Ive never used the grease like mentioned but wrapping them in the ensolite or other thin foam works well too. Sounds like your on the right track.


----------



## zacjones99

Thanks Capt. So just to clarify:



> I typically only use the foam between the driver and the baffle as a gasket to prevent air from escaping. You can do a 1/4" as a gasket and I'd probably use the neoprene, but honestly, either will work fine for that purpose.


So just use the foam to mount the driver to the MDF ring and mount the MDF ring directly to the door? I was under the impression that more decoupling material between the MDF ring and the door would be helpful. Maybe just the 2 layers of deadener and 1/8" of ensolite foam is plenty already, along with mass loading around the ring with modeling clay. I like the trick of loading the clay with BB's or lead weights too.




> Make sure you get all of the wires in the door wraped up in some ensolite or other thin foam to keep them from vibrating around in the door. Also, try using some foam on the back of the plastic door panel and around any areas that are movable like door handle pockets, window/lock switches, etc.


Sounds like most of my rattles are probably from the wires in the door then, because that is something I didn't do, and stabilizing the interior or exterior metal door panel with my hand sure didn't seem to help with the rattles. What about the window motor and door lock mechanisms? Do they typically rattle too or is it mostly just the wires? I'd like to figure this out before I seal the door up this time. I guess I'll just cover whatever I can with the closed cell foam and hit any moving parts with the grease, unless there are better ways to deal with those parts. Sticking deadener on them seems like it'd be tough to get it to stay on there, but the foam and adhesive seems to be pretty strong.


----------



## captainobvious

Well, usually I will use clear silicone sealant between the baffle and the door metal and again, thats just to keep a good seal. Then I use a 1/4" CC foam like volara or neoprene between the driver and the baffle because its less messay and permanent as silicone sealant. You want good energy transfer between the driver and the door metal so you dont want a huge layer of foam or other material fully decoupling your driver from the door.
The clay is a nice option when some mass is needed, and I also have used lead weights/shot mixed in too.



zacjones99 said:


> Sounds like most of my rattles are probably from the wires in the door then, because that is something I didn't do, and stabilizing the interior or exterior metal door panel with my hand sure didn't seem to help with the rattles. What about the window motor and door lock mechanisms? Do they typically rattle too or is it mostly just the wires? I'd like to figure this out before I seal the door up this time. I guess I'll just cover whatever I can with the closed cell foam and hit any moving parts with the grease, unless there are better ways to deal with those parts. Sticking deadener on them seems like it'd be tough to get it to stay on there, but the foam and adhesive seems to be pretty strong.


If it touches anything else in the door, decouple with foam. If it moves or is metal, some dampening material would be good too. The inside door metal rods, the electrical window and doro lock/speaker wires, and the door handle wire should all be wrapped with some ensolite when your in there. Youve done alot of great work already it sounds like. Just a few more things and you should be looking (or sounding) pretty good.


----------



## newton01

how are you am interested


----------



## FoxPro5

zacjones99 said:


> Also, I've got raammat/ensolite inside the door and am considering *squeezing in a layer of open cell foam on top behind a Peerless SLS 8" for 60-200hz sound absorption.* However with another layer of foam there the driver will sink into it a little as it is not a shallow mount driver by any means. I don't know if it would be counterproductive to put any open cell foam in at this point, but I'm willing to try it out if someone has figured out which foam should work the best. Can anyone recommend the best foam for this specific application?


Squeeze is right. It's going to have to be 17" thick to absorb a 200 hz wave. No chance on 60hz.

And it's already mentioned in this thread I believe, but if you take away the openness of foam, you take away it's absorb-ability. There are very few apps for OCF in a car; putting it in doors is NOT one of them. You will learn the hard way on that one, I think.


----------



## ganesht

Thanks for the comprehensive writeup!


----------



## zacjones99

good info and thanks for the replies!


----------



## lithium

sorry i just dont have time to read all 9 pages of post, but i do have a question. 

i run a sls 8 in each door, will i see any improvement in mid bass response by adding the foam/egg crate stuff behind the speaker? 

i,ve killed virtually every rattle with raammat, etc. 

i dont see how egg crate or deflex pads could make any difference behind a speaker when i have the rear wave separate of the front wave..

thanks for any info


----------



## FoxPro5

lithium said:


> sorry i just dont have time to read all 9 pages of post, but i do have a question


So we're supposed to have time to answer your question because you're lazy? Perfect, where should I begin? 

Your question(s) are answered. Read the thread.


----------



## Notloudenuf

lithium said:


> sorry i just dont have time to read all 9 pages of post, but i do have a question.
> 
> i run a sls 8 in each door, will i see any improvement in mid bass response by adding the foam/egg crate stuff behind the speaker?
> 
> i,ve killed virtually every rattle with raammat, etc.
> 
> i dont see how egg crate or deflex pads could make any difference behind a speaker when i have the rear wave separate of the front wave..
> 
> thanks for any info


Print this thread and keep it in the bathroom with you. And no not as emergency paper.  This should be required reading before you sign up here.


----------



## Auzivision

This thread has given motivated me to get my doors done. I have all the materials sitting in my garage and it will be much easier then the rest of the car... which I did using Raamat and Ensolite. 

A little tip I learned was to use thin shiny peel and stick furnace tape on all the seams. Not only dose it look a lot better, it keeps that black gung from getting all over everything else… including my light colored carpet. 

Another quick tip… one will quickly learn that the black stuff is very messy and very sticky. It cleans up remarkably easy using Goo Gone. Nothing else I tried even came close.

Following are a few pictures to give others an idea what this stuff looks like (the one with the blue door isn’t mine, but hatch area looks exactly the same):


----------



## sigma6

What is the next best thing to MLV? No-one does construction with drywall in this country and it seems no-one cares about noise either. I can buy large sheets of soft, pliable PVC in 2 to 3mm thickness. Reasonable substitute, or way inferior? Other suggestions?


----------



## Rudeboy

Lead sheeting would be better than MLV. Can you get that? After that, maybe heavy rubber? Your looking for mass so any way you can get to 1 lb/ft² (or more if you like) will do the job.


----------



## sigma6

Rudeboy said:


> Lead sheeting would be better than MLV. Can you get that? After that, maybe heavy rubber? Your looking for mass so any way you can get to 1 lb/ft² (or more if you like) will do the job.


Thanks Don! Thicker PVC or nitrile rubber sheets are easy. I was just worried it was the density that was the issue. When it's only mass, I can just use a thicker sheet. Lead would be really hard to come by I think, not to mention to ***** to work with.


----------



## Jopop

sigma6 said:


> Thanks Don! Thicker PVC or nitrile rubber sheets are easy. I was just worried it was the density that was the issue. When it's only mass, I can just use a thicker sheet. Lead would be really hard to come by I think, not to mention to ***** to work with.


Also, lead is pretty toxic.


----------



## sigma6

Jopop said:


> Also, lead is pretty toxic.


Yes, I think I read that somewhere.


----------



## Rudeboy

Jopop said:


> Also, lead is pretty toxic.


Have to ingest it though. I've thought long and hard about possible ways for lead to get from under the carpet into your body and haven't come up with any so far


----------



## sigma6

Rudeboy said:


> Have to ingest it though. I've thought long and hard about possible ways for lead to get from under the carpet into your body and haven't come up with any so far


Don't remember this?


----------



## CrownMe

Thanks for the clay idea, it made a huuge difference in my midbass. I gotta say that was the best 4 bucks I ever spent on car audio!


----------



## jimp

have to try the shiny tape for covering up the edges of my rammat, good suggestion. I have used rubbing alcohol to clean up the black goo from my rammat install, works good and leaves no residue on tools, etc.,


----------



## TiTi65

Gooooood . . .


----------



## slade1274

+1 for shiny tape- worked great.

Also, degreaser product called Greased Lightening works for the black goo if it's avialable in your area.


----------



## king_koopa

read this a few days ago and took the clay idea into consideration. applied it and works great!


----------



## casualsuspect

Ok, I might be missing something obvious, but common sense tells me that instead of using non-hardening clay in-between the baffle and the speaker and the baffle and the door, something that's springy (such as high-density foam or weatherstripping), would work better.

"WHY is this noob talking", I hear inquisitive minds ask..

Here's my logic:

Once clay is pushed on, it compresses (pushes out the sides), and doesn't spring back. Speakers vibrate. That vibration is carried to the baffle and the clay that's in between it and the door. As the bass lines hit, I can imagine the clay getting compressed and pushed out. So now that tight seal is not even a seal anymore.

Hm?


And npdang, GREAT ADVICE for us! This thread was bookmarked when I first read it a few weeks ago.


----------



## orange_spl

Excelents ideas for the principiants, or dummy´s....like me...jejejeje

Great aport and cheapers materials.

C u.


----------



## CrownMe

casualsuspect said:


> Ok, I might be missing something obvious, but common sense tells me that instead of using non-hardening clay in-between the baffle and the speaker and the baffle and the door, something that's springy (such as high-density foam or weatherstripping), would work better.
> 
> "WHY is this noob talking", I hear inquisitive minds ask..
> 
> Here's my logic:
> 
> Once clay is pushed on, it compresses (pushes out the sides), and doesn't spring back. Speakers vibrate. That vibration is carried to the baffle and the clay that's in between it and the door. As the bass lines hit, I can imagine the clay getting compressed and pushed out. So now that tight seal is not even a seal anymore.
> 
> Hm?
> 
> 
> And npdang, GREAT ADVICE for us! This thread was bookmarked when I first read it a few weeks ago.


Look through the pages I think someone tried something similar. I'm not really knowledgeable on this stuff so I couldnt really give you the right advice. But I had a great deal of success with clay. But instead of outting it in between the ring and the door. I mounted the mdf ring and the speaker, then basically surrounded the ring with clay, creating a seal.

Now.. I need to get to work on those big holes in my door. I wanted to know a bit more on what people have found success in using. I know Plexiglass was suggested in the original post, but has anyone tried anything else? I have no idea how much plexiglass even cost, so I was just wondering what the cheapest and most effective solution would be.

Thanks


----------



## Rudeboy

CrownMe said:


> Now.. I need to get to work on those big holes in my door. I wanted to know a bit more on what people have found success in using. I know Plexiglass was suggested in the original post, but has anyone tried anything else? I have no idea how much plexiglass even cost, so I was just wondering what the cheapest and most effective solution would be.
> 
> Thanks


You want to use a product that is as rigid as possible and waterproof and you want the cover to be removable. If the edges of the access hole are in a single plane you have a lot of options - aluminum, various plastics, even waterproofed woods. 

If the cover must follow irregular contours, the material you choose is going to be determined by your fabrication skills. If you can shape sheet metal you don't need me to tell you how to do it. My favorite material for these situations is fiberglass and polyester or epoxy resin. Probably the easiest approach is to use aluminum flashing. You can buy rolls of it quite inexpensively from the roofing department at Home Depot. Two layers with a non-curing viscoelastic adhesive between them is very effective.

No matter which material you use, seal the edges with either a viscoelastic adhesive or some sort of caulk. Finish with self-tapping screws and a few drops of thread locker to prevent corrosion.


----------



## CrownMe

Thanks! I'm going to hit up home depot tomorrow and see what my options are.


----------



## SHOWTIME

thanks for the helpfull tips!


----------



## wild_eye

Rudeboy said:


> You want to use a product that is as rigid as possible and waterproof and you want the cover to be removable. If the edges of the access hole are in a single plane you have a lot of options - aluminum, various plastics, even waterproofed woods.
> 
> If the cover must follow irregular contours, the material you choose is going to be determined by your fabrication skills. If you can shape sheet metal you don't need me to tell you how to do it. My favorite material for these situations is fiberglass and polyester or epoxy resin. Probably the easiest approach is to use aluminum flashing. You can buy rolls of it quite inexpensively from the roofing department at Home Depot. Two layers with a non-curing viscoelastic adhesive between them is very effective.
> 
> No matter which material you use, seal the edges with either a viscoelastic adhesive or some sort of caulk. Finish with self-tapping screws and a few drops of thread locker to prevent corrosion.


Nice! I will head to home depot to try that aluminum flashing. Was going to do sheet metal but the aluminum will be way easier to work with.


----------



## Rudeboy

wild_eye said:


> Nice! I will head to home depot to try that aluminum flashing. Was going to do sheet metal but the aluminum will be way easier to work with.


Heavier sheet metal will be more rigid. If you can handle it you'll get a somewhat better result. Two layers of the flashing does work pretty well.


----------



## on1wheel06

i dont know if this has been mentioned, but to seal my doors i used aluminum screening hot glued to the door, then covered in a layer of second skin.

let me know if you guys would like a write-up.


----------



## news 4 u

Great info, thanks! Saved me a lot of money, that's for sure


----------



## enkyteam

thanks for the info bro...


----------



## eng92

Rudeboy said:


> Heavier sheet metal will be more rigid. If you can handle it you'll get a somewhat better result. Two layers of the flashing does work pretty well.


If you have decent clearance to the window glass, you can dramatically increase the stiffness by adding ribs to the backside.

One of my winter project will be FG covers with either FG ribbing or a piece of aluminum eggcrate attached to the backside.


----------



## mitchjr

My 6.5 comps have a mounting depth of 3.9 inches and my doors have like 2 5/8 in. space. So what i did was stack two pieces of 3/4 mdf. Two together actually measure 1 5/16". Is this going to be detrimental to the sound or will I be ok if I do the rest of the baffle well. 

The main reason Im asking is I read some thing on DLS's web site about a chamfered piece of mdf but my comps arent dls they are RE xxx.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

There's nothing wrong w/ making thicker baffles as long as the backside of the speaker can still breathe.


----------



## Jefweezy

great source of information buddy, i installed four dynaxorb squares behind each speaker, the midbass response is incredible. My doors are subject to some minor leaks in bad weather so i coated my baffles in fibreglass resin to make them waterproof and prevent mold forming.


----------



## lexazz

cool info mane


----------



## jasondplacetobe

thanks for an excellent post, learning is fun!


----------



## Salad Fingers

npdang said:


> Next, I glue a large sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker location.


Where have you found the cheapest/easiest place to get this is?


----------



## Jopop

I've been doing this over the last couple of weekends. First deadened the outer door with thick butyl/aluminum mats, applied some closed cell foam behind the speakers, deadened the inner door metal where i could get to it from the back, sealed off all access holes with 1mm steel (difficult to shape, but i got it eventually), deadened the door metal facing the cabin until dead when knocked then covered in closed cell foam.

MDF rings were wrapped in modelling clay and attached to the door, mounted a pair of the seas lotus performance mids. Somehow the window still rolls all the way down although with the naked eye it looks like the speakers should be interfering with the window track, but they don't.

The door panel needed some adjustment to fit due to blocking up the access holes, an angle grinder was helpful for cutting out the curved plastic designed to go in the access holes. When finally put together it sounded good with resonable output @ 180w but started buzzing on high excursion. Turns out the original grill in the door plastic doesn't work, the speaker surround collides with the door panel!

So i get the angle grinder again and flatten the area behind the speaker grill on the door plastic panel. This lets me turn up a few more notches, but still isn't what it can be.. So i go get the jigsaw and cut out circles in the door plastic so the plastic doesn't interfere with the speaker. I found a pair of phoenix gold RSd grills which fit nicely, but they don't look very good. I'm looking for a set of classic round non-transparent metal mesh speaker grills measuring approx 7 1/4" across, 7"-7 1/2" is probably okay though if you know where to find them it would be very helpful..

Anyway after the door treatment and a bunch of other work with the tweets, 0 gauge power etc doing everything like in the popular DIYMA tutorials i fire her up again, and this time she sounds good. The SEAS mids with the door treatments deliver a very nice punchy low end that i have never heard in my other cars and midrange sounds clean and accurate and has good off-axis output even at LPF [email protected], and there are no rattles or buzzes until the drivers bottom out (and by then you're playing very loud).

I tested the builtin measuring system on the P88RSII and it's pretty nice, gives you a great starting point to tweak with. I found the calibrated sound to be a bit bright or tweeter-heavy, I increased the volume on the mids (p88rs cut them by -8 and -10db) and it's very close to perfect now, needs some slight EQ around 2.5-6k to suit my taste.

Now I'm just waiting for my BM MKIII to complete the system.


----------



## Potbelly

great thread. thanks for he info!


----------



## Potbelly

is here a rule of thumb to how much space between the door speaker and the acoustic egg carton foam?

my cdt m6 has a mounting depth of 3" and the door is 4 1/2" deep, so that leaves 1 1/2" to put the egg carton behind the speaker. if i were to order the 1 1/2" foam, it would be right up against the magnet....


----------



## Cruzer

what does the egg foam do behind the driver? if it directs the sound waves back towards the listener, does that not make it think its in a tiny leaky box?

could i use ccf or mlv behind my mids? or needs to be egg foam?


----------



## mitchjr

I'm pretty sure it's to absorb the rear wave, since the purpose of making your door into a proper baffle is to basically keep the rear wave from coming through and causing cancellation. 

This is just my best guess.


----------



## mitchjr

Did u read the whole thread? I coulda swore there was like a 3 page debate in here about how closed cell doesn't work as good as open cell. Maybe it was somewhere else. But unless I'm wrong about the purpose of the open cell foam (egg crate foam) I don't think the mlv will work very good on the outer skin, though it will help on the inner skin. 

Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding this. 
(wow u have 9x more posts than me and a later join date and I'm always on here. Keep it up. )


----------



## Rudeboy

The proper baffle is the key point. If the front and rear waves are isolated from each other, the back wave is pretty much irrelevant. The only remaining issue then is the possibility of the back wave reflecting off the outer skin, hitting the back of the cone and causing problems. The question is: can you do anything to change the behavior of the back wave more than is being done by the natural curve of the outer skin and the side impact beam?

Maybe, but you aren't going to absorb it with anything that is safe to use inside a door. Water flows through doors. Materials absorb sound because of friction between the air inside the material and the material itself as the air is moved by sound. Open celled foam and fibrous products work well for this but the same mechanism that makes them effective allow them to absorb water and odors.You don't want either to be retained inside your doors. 

You can waterproof an absorbent material but then it isn't absorbent anymore. With a non-absorbent egg crate foam, you are hoping to scatter the back wave, more than the curved outer skin and impact beam would do anyway. You don't escape needing the material to be 1/4 as thick, in this case peak to trough, as the wavelength of the frequency you want to influence. As a point of reference, if you have room for an inch thick material, you can hope to influence frequencies at or above about 3.4 kHz. Is that really were most of the energy coming from a door mounted speaker is?

My take is that outer skin treatments intended to influence the back wave may or may not make a very slight difference and only if they are thick enough to touch the relevant frequencies. The baffle is where you want to put your efforts. Lining the outer skin with a barrier will help block external noise and make your speakers harder to hear outside the car. Lining the inner skin with a barrier (my preference, where possible) will most likely block more external noise because noise entering the door at the sides, top and bottom will be behind the barrier and more importantly for this discussion, will acoustically reinforce the baffle.


----------



## Cruzer

What do u recommend for makig a good baffle? Of ur products that rope stuff?


----------



## Rudeboy

Cruzer said:


> What do u recommend for makig a good baffle? Of ur products that rope stuff?


A good baffle is going to be as rigid, non-resonant and acoustically opaque as possible. Since most people need a supplemental mounting surface, try to design one that will add to those three properties. A barrier on the inner skin will help. Adding rigid, non-resonant, waterproof and removable access hole coves should help. Anything you can do to improve the baffle will help. Using a viscoelastic adhesive between the mating surfaces of these components should help with the non-resonant part.


----------



## Jprice2708

Awesome thread, thanks for all the great info


----------



## mine4118

im going tohave to try the deflex pads...


----------



## ckasinski

Hey Don what is the viscoelastic adhesive that you recommend? From reading, I understand that silicone caulk is not viscoelastic and the Home Audio guys are big on the stuff called "Green Glue" but that is costly stuff. Also, would plumbers putty serve as a decent gasket between the baffle and inner door skin? It does not have the mass that clay has but it surely will not melt in these Northern CA heat waves. 


@ JoshHefner, do you use the Yaley Clay in AZ? I know we aren't as hot as you guys but up to 100 F is certain for the summer temps here and I don't want the drippy clay syndrome on my carpet and expensive speakers.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Rudeboy said:


> The proper baffle is the key point. If the front and rear waves are isolated from each other, the back wave is pretty much irrelevant. The only remaining issue then is the possibility of the back wave reflecting off the outer skin, hitting the back of the cone and causing problems. The question is: can you do anything to change the behavior of the back wave more than is being done by the natural curve of the outer skin and the side impact beam?
> 
> Maybe, but you aren't going to absorb it with anything that is safe to use inside a door. Water flows through doors. Materials absorb sound because of friction between the air inside the material and the material itself as the air is moved by sound. Open celled foam and fibrous products work well for this but the same mechanism that makes them effective allow them to absorb water and odors.You don't want either to be retained inside your doors.


This thread boggles my mind. A 100hz sound wave is 11.25feet long. Doors are simply too small and too leaky to act as a proper enclosure. The sound wave is looooooong, and it will escape the confines of the door easily. If you *must* put your midbasses in the door, you're better off building a small enclosure for them than ruining the resale value of your car by doing all these byzantine mods on the door.

Basically, the best solution is to put 'em in the kicks, or somewhere else. If that's unacceptable, build a small enclosure, and place that enclosure into the door.


----------



## EricP72

Patrick Bateman said:


> Basically, the best solution is to put 'em in the kicks, or somewhere else. If that's unacceptable, build a small enclosure, and place that enclosure into the doors


Hey I have to agree with is statement. If you have to use the doors for midbass, such as my self, then a sealed enclosure does work best. My issue is when I make that argument for the very same reason you stated, I get the whole infinite baffle is best. I never got how one could assume a leaky large enclosure who's front baffle is full of holes could compare to a enclosure. ESP if poly is used. One would assume that the whole moisture issue would be incentive to go the sealed pod route. ESP if your after tight, articulate mid-bass. This is the route I plan to take. 
Now Patrick you also accurately pointed out the wave lenghs. Am I right to assume that even with a sealed door pod, that there may still be backwave issues that need to be address. There has to be the same issue of the bass tightening or becoming bloated from the escaping albeit muffled sound. Thinking I might have the same issues that you have when you place your home speakers way to close to the wall versus moving them further away.


----------



## Cruzer

I don't know anything but if what u say is true why do people use sealed boxes for subs?


----------



## edouble101

I personally would never run a midbass IB in a door.


----------



## Rudeboy

Patrick Bateman said:


> This thread boggles my mind. A 100hz sound wave is 11.25feet long. Doors are simply too small and too leaky to act as a proper enclosure. The sound wave is looooooong, and it will escape the confines of the door easily. If you *must* put your midbasses in the door, you're better off building a small enclosure for them than ruining the resale value of your car by doing all these byzantine mods on the door.
> 
> Basically, the best solution is to put 'em in the kicks, or somewhere else. If that's unacceptable, build a small enclosure, and place that enclosure into the door.


Sounds like your mind boggles pretty easily, especially since it sounds like it is boggling at the concept of others weighing their options and coming to a different conclusion than you have. Everybody has different priorities. For many, doors are the only acceptable option. Obviously not ideal, but probably on the same scale as trying to reproduce music in a moving vehicle.

I think it's reasonable to assume that a thread about door treatments is going to be of interest to those who have decided to put speakers in their doors. I have to admit that I find the idea that this decision can't be arrived at by an intelligent and rational person a little mind boggling.

Kick pods aren't for everyone. Some feel automatic transmissions take the fun out of driving, that not having a clutch and a dead pedal is for Paris Hilton and those without functioning left legs.

So we're back to doors (in a thread about door treatments of all places). Enclosures might be a good solution. You might be surprised at how many aren't willing to do it. Again, individual priorities.

Then there are those for whom an enclosure isn't possible. I have exactly 3.0625 inches to work with before I either have to move the window track or cut the trim panel. Not interested in either option. I'd have to find an even shallower speaker than I'm using now (3") to get the wall of an enclosure behind it. I also believe that lowering the noise floor is the single most important thing I can do to improve my listening experience while driving, so a barrier at the inner skin works for me and accomplishes two things at once.

This thread is 1 month short of being 6 years old. During that time we have explored and rejected some pretty byzantine approaches. Since everything in the fragment you quoted is instantly reversible, I don't see how resale value is harmed in any way, but feel free to be boggled by the absurdity of it all.


----------



## Cruzer

i want to do an enclosure in the kicks, but i have a truck with a parking break right there. i think its gonna be pretty impossible to make that happen as i park on a hill and have to use the parking break.


----------



## Salad Fingers

Cruzer said:


> i want to do an enclosure in the kicks, but i have a truck with a parking break right there. i think its gonna be pretty impossible to make that happen as i park on a hill and have to use the parking break.


Do like me, bag the truck and axe the parking brake. Just lay it down when parking and your frame will prevent the truck from rolling down the hill .


----------



## Cruzer

Salad Fingers said:


> Do like me, bag the truck and axe the parking brake. Just lay it down when parking and your frame will prevent the truck from rolling down the hill .


mines lifted on 33s lol


----------



## Salad Fingers

I'm pretty curious about making enclosures in the door (or well I guess just the idea of enclosures for mids in general). 

#1 What is a good general size for the enclosure? I imagine that (obviously) it's going to vary from speaker to speaker, but are we talking like .3 - .5 being the range or upwards of a cube? 

#2 I know that the benefit of putting them in an enclosure is mid bass, but is this at a cost of volume? I know with our board each speaker is in its own enclosure that if I had to take a guess I'd say is around .3 or so (totally guessing here). The mid bass response is good, but the woofer is moving so far that they can't really get cranked up super loud. 

I could keep elaborating on my questions, but I think if you can answer the question then you already get the question. Thanks!!!!

Travis


----------



## Cruzer

just playing around with winisd, .3-.5 they roll off around 100hz pretty hard, while it does increase the 150hz up range by 1db


----------



## JoshHefnerX

ckasinski said:


> @ JoshHefner, do you use the Yaley Clay in AZ? I know we aren't as hot as you guys but up to 100 F is certain for the summer temps here and I don't want the drippy clay syndrome on my carpet and expensive speakers.


I haven't tried Yaley but basically any that have any wax component and many that have plastics will melt. Buy a small amount and put it in a small oven safe dish - such as a cassarole dish and throw it in the oven at a low temp - you'll see it starting to melt pretty quickly under 200 deg if it's going to melt - 5-10 mins....

Josh


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Rudeboy said:


> Sounds like your mind boggles pretty easily, especially since it sounds like it is boggling at the concept of others weighing their options and coming to a different conclusion than you have. Everybody has different priorities. For many, doors are the only acceptable option. Obviously not ideal, but probably on the same scale as trying to reproduce music in a moving vehicle.
> 
> I think it's reasonable to assume that a thread about door treatments is going to be of interest to those who have decided to put speakers in their doors. I have to admit that I find the idea that this decision can't be arrived at by an intelligent and rational person a little mind boggling.
> 
> Kick pods aren't for everyone. Some feel automatic transmissions take the fun out of driving, that not having a clutch and a dead pedal is for Paris Hilton and those without functioning left legs.
> 
> So we're back to doors (in a thread about door treatments of all places). Enclosures might be a good solution. You might be surprised at how many aren't willing to do it. Again, individual priorities.
> 
> Then there are those for whom an enclosure isn't possible. I have exactly 3.0625 inches to work with before I either have to move the window track or cut the trim panel. Not interested in either option. I'd have to find an even shallower speaker than I'm using now (3") to get the wall of an enclosure behind it. I also believe that lowering the noise floor is the single most important thing I can do to improve my listening experience while driving, so a barrier at the inner skin works for me and accomplishes two things at once.
> 
> This thread is 1 month short of being 6 years old. During that time we have explored and rejected some pretty byzantine approaches. Since everything in the fragment you quoted is instantly reversible, I don't see how resale value is harmed in any way, but feel free to be boggled by the absurdity of it all.


I generally avoid voicing my opinion on sound deadening, since I know a lot of people swear by it, and this forum is practically financed by it. (And you own a sound deadening company, no?)


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Salad Fingers said:


> I'm pretty curious about making enclosures in the door (or well I guess just the idea of enclosures for mids in general).
> 
> #1 What is a good general size for the enclosure? I imagine that (obviously) it's going to vary from speaker to speaker, but are we talking like .3 - .5 being the range or upwards of a cube?
> 
> #2 I know that the benefit of putting them in an enclosure is mid bass, but is this at a cost of volume? I know with our board each speaker is in its own enclosure that if I had to take a guess I'd say is around .3 or so (totally guessing here). The mid bass response is good, but the woofer is moving so far that they can't really get cranked up super loud.
> 
> I could keep elaborating on my questions, but I think if you can answer the question then you already get the question. Thanks!!!!
> 
> Travis


In a nutshell, I find that you get excellent results when you use extremely small sealed boxes. It's the same thing that a lot of us do with our subs - we get a ten or a twelve and put it in a box that's barely big enough to contain the basket. You can do the same thing with your midbasses.

The reason why it's so effective is that *it's trivial to make bass in a car due to cabin gain, but it's hell trying to generate good midbass.*

Basically, you get some serious "bang for the buck" when you seal up those midbasses, because it's in the midbass where we need all the help that we can get.

As for enclosure size, I could write a whole article on that, and I think I will. I'll need some time to put it together. Basically you have to follow a different criteria when you're selecting a sealed midbass, focusing on power handling and small enclosure size. *A lot of car audio midbasses won't work very well because the QTS is too high.*

But if you choose your drivers carefully, you'll enjoy a big bump in midbass power handling, and you'll get much deeper bass (because those damn doors leak too much.)


----------



## kelrog

11 pages and I didn't see any mention of Duct Seal Non Hardening Clay from GB or Ideal Link


----------



## tuing2

good informative thread ,,,


----------



## tuing2

on1wheel06 said:


> i dont know if this has been mentioned, but to seal my doors i used aluminum screening hot glued to the door, then covered in a layer of second skin.
> 
> let me know if you guys would like a write-up.


can you post some picture from your work ? 
do you mind ?

thanks ,


----------



## Rudeboy

Patrick Bateman said:


> I generally avoid voicing my opinion on sound deadening, since I know a lot of people swear by it, and this forum is practically financed by it. (And you own a sound deadening company, no?)


Yes. Don't be coy. I doubt anyone will object to whatever it is you're trying to say.


----------



## ashjm

This is one of the all-time best threads on the forum. Here's my small contribution; didn't see much mention of these particular products, so here goes:
For making baffles, I prefer HDPE cutting board material over MDF. Strong, rigid, more durable, and still somewhat easy to cut/shape. You can get 1/2" thick stuff from usplastics (sorry, I'm not allowed to post links yet), or just buy a cutting board from the local boxmart.
For killing rattles, automotive Goop (or any other similar product) is it! I dab some on every plastic connector/panel clip/harness inside the door. It's still pliable when it dries and is removable with a little work if necessary.

Gonna tear my doors apart again soon and re-apply some of the tips I've gleaned from this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed!


----------



## Jprice2708

Was at the hardware store and found a great source of CCF - there is a soft cushion underlay/insulation foam sold to lay under panel flooring, and only costs $22 for 11m2. That's at Bunnings here in Australia, but I'm sure you could find a similar product in the USA.

Edit: Got the CCF in my doors today, and the difference is huge compared to just having MLV, no more buzzing at high bass volumes, and a minor, but noticable lowering in overall noise coming through - decoupling that MLV is worth doing IME


----------



## Mikcuz

Thanks. Thumbs Up.


----------



## brett

wow, i just checked this thread out and read the first page..... early 2005! and i saw a reference to ECA. man, that brings back some memories. even good ol' minitruck was around then.

anyway, im in the process of doing all of this as well. i will definitely do the dampening and ccf/mlv solution. however, not sure how to treat the door as an enclosure. i have morel h8.1's that i had in the doors of my caddy and it sounded incredible. all i did was make a baffle and throw em' in there.


----------



## dsauce16

kelrog said:


> 11 pages and I didn't see any mention of Duct Seal Non Hardening Clay from GB or Ideal


thats what i used to seal my doors. Duct seal from home depot was $2 for 1 lb and i ended up using 2. also before starting this project i had no idea what i was getting myself into. that outer doorskin and sealing the big access holes are a *****. also, after completion my drivers side front door lock decided to get jammed!!! talk about frustrating. anyway a couple of firm punches to the lock seem to do the trick if anyone runs into that problem and doesnt want to tear about their newly dampened and sealed doors


----------



## Miguel.Gto

what size (thickness) on the egg carton foam ?? does it make a difference from using the thin to thick ??


----------



## finbar

Patrick Bateman said:


> In a nutshell, I find that you get excellent results when you use extremely small sealed boxes. It's the same thing that a lot of us do with our subs - we get a ten or a twelve and put it in a box that's barely big enough to contain the basket. You can do the same thing with your midbasses.
> 
> The reason why it's so effective is that *it's trivial to make bass in a car due to cabin gain, but it's hell trying to generate good midbass.*
> 
> Basically, you get some serious "bang for the buck" when you seal up those midbasses, because it's in the midbass where we need all the help that we can get.
> 
> As for enclosure size, I could write a whole article on that, and I think I will. I'll need some time to put it together. Basically you have to follow a different criteria when you're selecting a sealed midbass, focusing on power handling and small enclosure size. *A lot of car audio midbasses won't work very well because the QTS is too high.*
> 
> But if you choose your drivers carefully, you'll enjoy a big bump in midbass power handling, and you'll get much deeper bass (because those damn doors leak too much.)


I am looking at this 
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=121&products_id=8995
driver for a door mid in a box. Is it a good candidate for the application?


----------



## Techie

Great thread, I learned a lot and plan to do some good work on sealing my doors. I had a few questions though. I read through the whole thread and seen some different techniques.

I will be installing a 3/4" mdf ring cause it's needed. How important is it to put some sort of foam between the door/baffle (to reduce vibrations) and baffle/driver (to seal it better). Is it necessary to add foam to both locations, or is this overkill?


----------



## todd4198

Great thread, however after reading through it I didn't seem to see a definitive answer on the clay. The OP hasn't had any melting problems, but it seems most others have. I can get this locally, but others have said the Van Aken is a bad idea, even though this says it melts at 150 degrees. I think my doors would only get that hot only on our hottest days around here...


----------



## kelrog

todd4198 said:


> Great thread, however after reading through it I didn't seem to see a definitive answer on the clay. The OP hasn't had any melting problems, but it seems most others have. I can get this locally, but others have said the Van Aken is a bad idea, even though this says it melts at 150 degrees. I think my doors would only get that hot only on our hottest days around here...


instead of modeling clay use: Duct Seal, Non Hardening Clay from GB or Ideal 










here is the link


----------



## kelrog

JLaudioman said:


> Great thread, I learned a lot and plan to do some good work on sealing my doors. I had a few questions though. I read through the whole thread and seen some different techniques.
> 
> I will be installing a 3/4" mdf ring cause it's needed. How important is it to put some sort of foam between the door/baffle (to reduce vibrations) and baffle/driver (to seal it better). Is it necessary to add foam to both locations, or is this overkill?


Depends on how you are mounting it to your door, if you have uneven surfaces, then yes you will want something to help seal the ring to the door. using foam is ok. but the clay (use Duct Seal/plug) will make the seal more solid, add more mass around the speaker, and with BB's inserted into the clay even more localized mass can be added around the speaker resulting in less vibration to the door. It can also keep water away from the rings, since you are going to be using MDF (make sure you water seal them with FB resin, truck bed liner, etc...)


----------



## todd4198

kelrog said:


> instead of modeling clay use: Duct Seal, Non Hardening Clay from GB or Ideal
> 
> here is the link


Cool thanks that definitely looks like a better option.


----------



## kelrog

yeah it has a way higher melting point, doesn't harden. has good stick to it. you can turn it into a rope and put it on your impact bars in your doors as well. good stuff. cheap and normally you can find it at home stores.


----------



## duckymcse

I had been using this Duct Seal for a little more than a month. So far so good in both hot and cold weather. It does really sealed up the gap quite well and it help stop the vibration. I really like this product. Very good recommendation.
The slight problem is that it does have this faint smell to it when you roll down the windows.



kelrog said:


> instead of modeling clay use: Duct Seal, Non Hardening Clay from GB or Ideal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here is the link


----------



## kelrog

duckymcse said:


> I had been using this Duct Seal for a little more than a month. So far so good in both hot and cold weather. It does really sealed up the gap quite well and it help stop the vibration. I really like this product. Very good recommendation.
> The slight problem is that it does have this faint smell to it when you roll down the windows.


ive used it for the past 3 months. and haven't smelled a thing. and im in FL. go figure.


----------



## dozy_production

I've done it in the past and I see that everyone usually is covering an entire surface with deadener. Could it be way more efficient if you just covered lets say the center of a panel so you would still add mass but to only the part that really needs it?


----------



## kelrog

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...se-application-deadening-still-efficient.html


----------



## Maytag Snow

Great post and follow-up. I appreciate the emphasis on general material types that let us find something similar, but different in our local areas.


----------



## ecbmxer

+1 on the duct seal! I used it as a gasket between each metal panel I installed and the door and then put a big piece of mat over it, sealing everything. Solid as a rock. I also built up a bit around and under the speaker baffles. Made them even more rigid.


----------



## rockytophigh

Ok....I took off my door panels today to start my beater build...finally. I went and bought two sheets of plexi to cover what I initially thought were two large holes. I get the panel off and the whole ***N door is wide open. It's so uneven I don't ever see a way of sealing it. I did get my tweeters mounted in the sails so a wee bit of progress was made. Any ideas on what to do with this problem besides find another beater with better sealed doors???


----------



## Fus1on

Instead of Plexi, look for some perforated metal. Some places like Home Depot have it, it might be in the aluminum screen door section. You can shape it to fit in most cases.
Examples
perforated metal spec|HeBei Believe Wire Cloth Co.,Ltd.


----------



## kelrog

Fus1on said:


> Instead of Plexi, look for some perforated metal. Some places like Home Depot have it, it might be in the aluminum screen door section. You can shape it to fit in most cases.
> Examples
> perforated metal spec|HeBei Believe Wire Cloth Co.,Ltd.


This is good. Or fiberglass it in using card board and tape to get the mold. Or just some mesh that you can put in and seal it with ccd. 

Or you may want to just try building an cup enclose into the door. Like built in kicks.


----------



## rockytophigh

OMG....wow. So I take the plexi back to Lowe's and look for some metal flashing like on the link above. There's nothing but aluminum flashing so I buy it. Took the door off & deadened all around the edges. Trimmed the aluminum close to fit the door as best I could. There are parts it's just not going to work...plus, it's so curved that the flashing bends all crazy in the middle. Got like 6 screws in...yanked it off & put the door panel back on. Hot & angry. Go inside to the a/c & immediately the wife wakes up from a nap & wants me to take her to Taco Bell as soon as my but hit my chair. Fine. Get home and now none of the door locks or power windows work....her windows down 5 inches. Guess it's a fuse but right now I'm honestly hoping someone steals the POS.

Someone tell me this is going to be worth it.......


----------



## Fus1on

It is said that _"A picture is worth a million words"_ .... any pics of the door?


----------



## rockytophigh

Yeah...I took one to solicit ya'll for help....but I opted for beer at Hooters so I'm posting from my phone. I'll attempt to post it when I get home lol.


----------



## rockytophigh

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5773793436/

Take a look and please help. I have better amps, head units, comps, etc. but this is my build....by me. This one means something. If I can get past the doors then I can pester ya'll about the trunk lol.


----------



## Fus1on

LOL Where are my Hooter's wings???

Even after logging in there, we can't see your picture 


> his photo is private.
> Oops! You don't have permission to view this photo.


----------



## rockytophigh

IMAG0201 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Should be all fixed up! & I ate all your wings lol


----------



## Fus1on

WOW I now see why it was giving you fits. I think I would end up doing it two pieces, an upper and a lower. You won't be able to seal it off completely with the metal and you don't need to, just do enough for the CLD tiles to have something behind them to stick to and use it to seal it off *IF* that is your intention.

I'm really disappointed about the wings, I hope you get indigestion from them. While I was on your Flickr page, I helped myself to some of the brisket on the next page.


----------



## kelrog

From what I'm seeing in your picture, I think that middle bracket/brace maybe entirely removable. If that IS possible, then you may be able to fit one larger piece in there. Use the duct seal to make up for the curviness of the door, and squish to fit the aluminum. People have even used old voting signs (corrugated plastic) to help seal the door some.


----------



## Rudeboy

rockytophigh said:


> OMG
> Someone tell me this is going to be worth it.......


The marriage or the door?

How tightly does the trim panel fit into the spaces above and below the horizontal structure. You're just trying to minimize air movement and sound interaction between the front and rear of the door mounted speaker. If the trim panel takes care of that you really don't need to do much else.


----------



## kelrog

Rudeboy said:


> The marriage or the door?


 :laugh:


----------



## mrzapco

how is the duct tape working?


----------



## Fricasseekid

Just read this entire thread! Whew...!

Not much info about installing a baffle in the door panel (such as the speaker pods common in full-size GMC and Chevys). My doors are deadened an sealed but I'm getting some bad buzzing from 80-200 hz. 

















Would deadener on the back of the door panel resolve this? Any advice opinions?


----------



## rockytophigh

Alrighty....a lil update. I think I've figured out how to get this done. However, I managed to somehow screw up my power window on the passenger side. I'm now diagnosing that problem with little luck. I did smoke some killer babybacks for Memorial Day however. I have not burnt the car to the ground....yet.


----------



## dstaley

rockytophigh said:


> Alrighty....a lil update. I think I've figured out how to get this done. However, I managed to somehow screw up my power window on the passenger side. I'm now diagnosing that problem with little luck. I did smoke some killer babybacks for Memorial Day however. I have not burnt the car to the ground....yet.


Your collection of amplifiers is very impressive!

Your doors do look like they are a challenge. One option might be to trim a piece of sheetmetal (could use aluminum, steel, stainless, etc) to the approximate shape of your door opening and then use fiberglass resin and cloth to create the filler between the new sheetmetal cover and the shape of the door. Cover the door with masking tape and then apply automotive wax to the tape so that you can crack the hardened fiberglass away from the door after it cures, trim, and you will have a custom fit removable panel that you can then screw into place.


----------



## rockytophigh

dstaley said:


> Your collection of amplifiers is very impressive!
> 
> Your doors do look like they are a challenge. One option might be to trim a piece of sheetmetal (could use aluminum, steel, stainless, etc) to the approximate shape of your door opening and then use fiberglass resin and cloth to create the filler between the new sheetmetal cover and the shape of the door. Cover the door with masking tape and then apply automotive wax to the tape so that you can crack the hardened fiberglass away from the door after it cures, trim, and you will have a custom fit removable panel that you can then screw into place.


Thanks....won't be doing anything for a minute. The old lady hit me with a damn golf club and broke my arm. Crazy women....apparently I'm a magnet. When I heal...I think I'm going to do 4-5 inch wide strips of aluminum...leaving an half inch gap. Then go back and layer over those. Then deaden. I think it'll be easier than trying to mold one big piece. Or....you could come over and help a brother out lol.


----------



## dstaley

rockytophigh said:


> Thanks....won't be doing anything for a minute. The old lady hit me with a damn golf club and broke my arm. Crazy women....apparently I'm a magnet. When I heal...I think I'm going to do 4-5 inch wide strips of aluminum...leaving an half inch gap. Then go back and layer over those. Then deaden. I think it'll be easier than trying to mold one big piece. Or....you could come over and help a brother out lol.


OUCH!

Hey man, I have a wife and two kids myself- including a 4 month old. I have my hands full here too! If you were in town, I'd gladly help out though.


----------



## 9mmmac

rockytophigh said:


> Thanks....won't be doing anything for a minute. The old lady hit me with a damn golf club and broke my arm. Crazy women....apparently I'm a magnet. When I heal...I think I'm going to do 4-5 inch wide strips of aluminum...leaving an half inch gap. Then go back and layer over those. Then deaden. I think it'll be easier than trying to mold one big piece. Or....you could come over and help a brother out lol.


Well, she could have busted out 'ya grille, and then took it to your rear window as well... Causing your SUV to crash, and attracting unwanted media attention.

Wimmenz is crazy like that...


----------



## rockytophigh

dstaley said:


> OUCH!
> 
> Hey man, I have a wife and two kids myself- including a 4 month old. I have my hands full here too! If you were in town, I'd gladly help out though.


You definitely do! Congrats on the new arrival. I remember those days. Don't worry....you will get to sleep again one day!


----------



## rockytophigh

9mmmac said:


> Well, she could have busted out 'ya grille, and then took it to your rear window as well... Causing your SUV to crash, and attracting unwanted media attention.
> 
> Wimmenz is crazy like that...


Lmao. She was swinging for my head. All because she tried to call my cell 4 times and the calls never went through....well, it never rang on my end. They are a different breed....


----------



## Fricasseekid

rockytophigh said:


> Lmao. She was swinging for my head. All because she tried to call my cell 4 times and the calls never went through....well, it never rang on my end. They are a different breed....


Hope it doesn't throw you off your game like it did Tiger!!


----------



## big_ears

Ouch rockytophigh! That's some crazy sheit. Heal up bro.

Just wanted to say this is a great thread and show some of my handiwork based on some of the info shared here as it might help others. I used aluminum flashing, duct seal, sheet metal screws, locktight, CC Foam (behind speakers for a little diffusion), and dynamat to bring my doors to the next level. Mid bass is way improved! Wasn't quick, but I got 'er done eventually.

yeah and that duct seal stuff is AWESOME. I think I used at least 1.5 lbs per door doing it the way I did. I also used it to mount a baffle for my center speaker on a very uneven surface and got a tight seal. Works like a charm and cheap.

Pictures I took covering a hole:


----------



## 9mmmac

Big: Pls. see my thread about my Big 3 upgrade. I'm using some stuff called "replacleable cord weatherstrip". It's heavy, and sort of like modeling clay with dryer lint in it. It gets pretty flexible when you knead it for a while, but is somewhat putty-like most of the time. Is it the same as duct seal? 

I like your ideas but want to see what the difference between these two items. I still have a ton of this weatherstripping putty!

Here is the link; 5th pic down. I think I got this stuff at Lowe's...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-our-members/107466-quicky-big-3-upgrade.html


----------



## big_ears

9mmmac said:


> Big: Pls. see my thread about my Big 3 upgrade. I'm using some stuff called "replacleable cord weatherstrip". It's heavy, and sort of like modeling clay with dryer lint in it. It gets pretty flexible when you knead it for a while, but is somewhat putty-like most of the time. Is it the same as duct seal?
> 
> I like your ideas but want to see what the difference between these two items. I still have a ton of this weatherstripping putty!
> 
> Here is the link; 5th pic down. I think I got this stuff at Lowe's...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-our-members/107466-quicky-big-3-upgrade.html


First off duct seal wasn't my idea I pulled it from this thread. 

What you're describing does not sound exactly like duct seal. There's no dryer lint like component to duct seal. Duct seal is like sticky enough molding clay to do stuff with. Sticky enough meaning you can get it to stick to stuff but its kinda oily sticky not adhesive sticky. It may have adhesive in it but it feels more oily like. It doesn't cure so it stays soft. If the stuff you're using is dense, mold able, and sticky you can probably use it place of duct seal. Duct seal is soft and easy enough to work with.

I've also used butyl adhesive rope which is very sticky and viscoelastic, but is way more expensive, harder to work with, and doesn't squish as easily as duct seal. I used butyl adhesive rope between my speaker baffles and doors and found small gaps using a flashlight because it does not squish well and I was miserly with it. I just put a huge ring of duct seal all around the baffle and door junction as seen somewhat seen below. I wound up completely surrounding the baffle eventually


----------



## 9mmmac

Ah... thanks for the clarification. Next time I go to Lowe's/Home Depot I'll check it out. Methinks I'll stay away from the butyl rope stuff- I have heard it's messy.


----------



## big_ears

Just wanted to update on the duct seal as I was using some today and I was a little off in my description. It is sticky not just oily sticky like I said. I thought it was oily as my hands leave a residue on auto glass and paint after working with it, but it's just good 'ol sticky. Not butyl sticky but sticky.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

@rocky - I made fiberglass molds to seal my front doors because of the uneven shape of the opening, and it worked out pretty well for me. Took a little work but IMO it was worth it. If you're interested I can send you some pictures.


----------



## roseda91

Cool thread!!!


----------



## MrUntouchab1e

I was just about to buy some rope. Good thing I didn't! I'll give this a shot first


----------



## kelrog

I'm glad the duct seal is still going strong. Its been a few months and I have had to take my door off to fix a window, and it was still just as soft and sticky as the day i put it on. 

still one of my favorite low cost deadening finds.


----------



## chelecuche

Amazing tread! Really helped a lot! Thank you


----------



## strong*I*bumpin

I used this,very similar to edead 45mil at only $17per roll...


----------



## fj60landcruiser

Nice info in this thread! Thanks to all who have contributed.


----------



## junort

I used the modeling clay in my doors, but I have not gone back in to see if it melted. I also used it for my rear speakers because I changed them out and used the clay to fill out uneven spots. The clay has melted in some spots and dripped in the trunk a little.

I also used some duct seal and that is holding fairly well.


----------



## kelrog

Opened my doors last month when i was taking my speakers out for my trade in. The duct seal looked pretty much the same as when I installed it. The bedliner spray i used on my speaker rings did come off on some of it, but it was easily removed. 

Over all great stuff. Even after 2 years (not garaged) in hot FL weather.


----------



## aholland1198

Entirely too many pages to read, but I would like to put something behind my Imagine mids. I have extra ensolite, but what about the foam weather stripping you can buy at home depot? Just put together 10-12 .5 inch strips. Would soak up the sound and you can even cross the strips back and forth to also break up the back wave. Thoughts?


----------



## Rudeboy

aholland1198 said:


> Entirely too many pages to read, but I would like to put something behind my Imagine mids. I have extra ensolite, but what about the foam weather stripping you can buy at home depot? Just put together 10-12 .5 inch strips. Would soak up the sound and you can even cross the strips back and forth to also break up the back wave. Thoughts?


For any material on the outer skin to influence the back wave, it needs to be 1/4 as thick as the wavelength of the target frequency. Something that's 1/8" thick will start to be effective around 29 kHz and above. Things don't improve until you start to get into the many inches thick range.

It's also important to understand that you do need to use something like CCF in that location because of water flow through the door. CCF is a terrible absorber at any thickness. 

Point of all of this is that you can't do what you are planning. Soaking up and breaking up aren't going to happen with the constraints we have to work with. 

Much more important to acoustically isolate the front and rear waves coming from the speaker. The back wave reflecting off the outer skin is of concern because of interference with the cone - pretty minor in the scheme of things. Much worse to have the front and rear waves interfere with each other. That's cancellation and is a real problem.


----------



## tango_down

Wow, long thread. I didnt read any of it, but where do i get cheap door treatments?

















Just Kidding! I read all of it. Thanks for all the info. I am glad I went through this thread before doing my doors. I would have missed making a decent baffle for the in-door speakers. I'll be using Raamat and Ensolite, both on hand, as well as some MDF, butyl tape and probably some rolled aluminum depending on how wide my door openings are.

Thanks all.


----------



## neurotictim

Lol @ all the TL;DR going on in this thread. Just read through the whole thing - well, I started yesterday and finished today - and thanks for all the good advice!

I suspect that now I will spend less, dollar- and time-wise, for a better end result. 

That being said, installation day is going to be a LONG one, I suspect.


----------



## ecobass

Wow! Great info on this entire thread but i better get back to work lol


----------



## deadringerr7

ok i dont want to post on a 2 year old thread put i have read all 14 pages and something was not made clear. So i would like a step by step direction on how to treat the door please. so i use cld tiles on the inner door skin first then cld on the outer door skin. if you use mass loaded vinyl when and where do you apply it. on the inner or outer door skin? before or after you apply the cld tiles? do you put cld tiles around the speaker hole and then you drill the mdf rings on the cld tiles? or do you put just the duct seal right on the door metal, then place the mdf ring on the door to make it a tight seal?


----------



## truckerfte

I'm in the process of doing my doors now. 

Its a Saturn, so after my last experience with my first one I'm skipping the outer door. It didn't seem to help any on the plastic panels. 

This time I'm doing it this way. The factory put a jute covering behind the outer door skin, so I'm leaving it alone. I covered the big hole with masking tape, and fiberglassed a cover for it. ( BTW, I forgot any kind of release agent for it....don't do that, lol) Hopefully if I drag my ass to the shop tonight I'll finish trimming that part up. Then I'll seal the new panel with silicon and screw it in. Then a damper on the door panel. Then jute or ccf over that. Then mlv. Door spacer sealed with resin, sealed to door with duct seal. Then speaker. Not sure if its the "right" way or not, but that's the way I'm doing it. 

Now, if my car had metal doors, I would have used a damper on inside of door skin as well, along with something behind the speaker to break up the back wave.



Tried to post pic, but phone is being a *****. And I'm sure there are easier ways to seal the holes in the doors, but I wanted to get a feel for glassing before I start on a more ambitious project...a sub box.


----------



## lwdwn1

Nice


----------



## zidaro

so much amazing info here. appreciated, as i am venturing into my first really diy audio upgrades to my 2010 Tundra Crewmax. Lots of sq. footage of panelling in need of deadening and insulating!


----------



## starbai

What liquid deadener did you use? 

Thanks.


----------



## elwood

Great thread with valuable info. However, most of the manufactured baffle material such as Deflex, dynaxorb, etc. I cannot seem to find anywhere. I don't want to use open-cell foam. Anyone know of a decent product currently on the market that's not outrageously priced?


----------



## SnotBubbles4You

Good Thread


----------



## lpreston

Cascade still shows it on their site.

Eliminate destructive speaker backwave energy with Deflex.


----------

