# I'm officially never setting foot into any car audio shop, ever again



## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

Yesterday I went to Brentwood car audio and security

I asked about their phoenix gold components to see if they had any mounts for my car

The guy very angrily said "none of the speakers you buy will come with that because there are just so many options"

I found that funny because just a few weeks prior, I had tried out some $140 components from kenwood at best buy that DID.

So either this guy is just talking out of his ass or has some issue with being right all the time or maybe he just wanted me to buy them and pay for them to fabricate some crappy little mount so they get $100 per hour - either way, I wouldn't want him pulling something like that on an IMPORTANT aspect of my install, and wouldn't want him doing the same for anyone else.

On top of that, they 

The first car audio shop I went to was car audio express in san jose (they took over the skate shop that used to be there)

They charged me $80 to run 8awg wire to the back cargo area, but they put the wire AROUND the grommet, so by the time I upgraded to 4awg, there had almost been enough pressure to CUT The rubber surround on the wire which would have obviously led to a short and damaged who knows how much equipment...

So needless to say, I suggest NOBODY go to ANY car audio shop unless they have a car that's hard to work on like a BMW or something.

I had my box built for $90 including materials and it looks so nice I never even carpeted it and he didn't even use any screws.

Not only that, but I had no training and managed to install complete systems in 2-3 vehicles I owned/drove.

Why is car audio looked at as some hard to do job that deserves an insane labor rate?


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Ooof that's some frustration right there.

But you did answer your own question there - you've done some installs yourself, and now believe that anyone can do it. Same thing with those businesses, they did a few installs, said, "Hey this isn't hard, I can do this, and charge people, and they will pay me to do it!" 

But with everything in life, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. They chose the wrong ways


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Preach brutha preach, yes we have all been there with those supposed shops. The more you know before you walk in the door, the safer you will be.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Yup, been there done that. Then when I upgraded I discovered all the corners they cut to get the job done. Now I do all installs by myself and encourage everyone around me to research their car and do their own stuff as well. No one will take the time and care to do it right like the owner will. Rare exceptions are installers that do nothing but custom work but they ain't cheap! I can honestly say that I wouldn't install car audio for any amount of money. Just too many things that can go wrong and break.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

if you can do the work yourself more power to you.. that's always a good thing. the average person can do alot of things themselves. that's why there's all those DIY books for just about any subject. but that doesn't mean that you should not go to a professional when it's needed. I've seen plenty of DIY jobs done in cars that i almost died just from looking at the hack job they did. not everyone is cable of doing it themselves. and with newer cars it's even harder to do things in.

if you think you can take on the job then good go for it. just make sure you don't take on more that you can handle then end up paying more for it in the end or blaming a shop for something you may have caused. remember car audio shops are a business. they have to generate income to pay overhead costs: parts, labor, bills, advertisements, etc etc.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

Very few and I mean very few people will treat your equipment the way you want it to be treated. When I say very few, I mean, I haven't found anyone locally that will do the job I would do if I had the time or materials to do it. I have done a lot of work going behind car audio shop installs. Just keep that in mind. Hold them accountable. Be very specific about the work you want to do and check up on them in stages so they don't get too far through the install before you catch them cutting corners. Even write the work you want to have done down so they have it in writing and there are no questions. It's your money, your equipment and you have to drive it/listen to it. 

I would love to meet some of the installers on this forum who's work I've really been impressed with, unfortunately, none live in my area.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

i have been involved with car audio on a pretty serious level since about 1987, and i can count the number of decent shops i have been in on one hand and have a finger or two left over. Its strange too...its such and amazing and rewarding hobby....yet the people who work in the shops are generally total douches...and i have no idea why.

i even see it in my brothers stereo shop...a adversarial relationship between customer and shop.

Maybe they just get sick of people coming in and wanting to do things in a different way than the shop wants to do it...idk.


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## Slammer (Nov 14, 2010)

Dang! I guess I got lucky right off the bat. My guy has been in business for over 25 years and I have known him for more than ten. He does great work, carries great brands (Audison, Hertz, Memphis, Stinger, JL, PG, etc....) and stands behind what he does. I have bought from him and had numerous items warrantied out. He has never complained and even been very helpful with my projects given me great advice. I did my own custom HU install in my Lexus IS350, but it wouldn't have worked out if it hadn't been for his help. Perhaps ask around? Surely there is a reputable shop in your area....


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## gravel (Jun 24, 2012)

It's hard to pay someone to care about your stuff as much as you do. I've seen incredible work done by motivated hobbyists in several different trades, carpentry, painting and audio. When a guy has to make a living doing something it becomes important to knock out jobs as quickly as possible. If you're working for a hobby you just don't care if it takes an extra couple of days...

I've done stuff that my local shops said was impossible...


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## seismicboom (Jan 25, 2011)

Thers some goos shops and thers alot of shady ones. im local to you 2010hhrlt send me a pm if you need some advice or help with anything . I do in installation and some custom work .


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

seismicboom said:


> Thers some goos shops and thers alot of shady ones. im local to you 2010hhrlt send me a pm if you need some advice or help with anything . I do in installation and some custom work .


what car do you drive? I just bought some gear so I might have met you already. I was the guy with the HHR

I need a box built for a sub I just got. and some 2 or 0 awg wiring and fuse holders


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

Not saying you should avoid car audio shops but their labor rates are ridiculous a lot of times. I cant do fiberglass work (or pretty much anything else that requires any craftsmanship) so a few years ago I asked one of my local shops once how much to glass some tweeters in my A-pillars. $300!

I asked another one 2 years ago how much to wrap my A-pillars in grill cloth for me. $100. I did it myself in 30 minutes with $5 worth of material from Hobby Lobby. 

My favorite was when I called one and asked how much theyd charge me to cut the wood for me that I would need to build my sub box. I dont have a table saw and thought it would be worth $10-20 to let them cut it so Id have nice straight edges. I would provide the wood AND draw the cut lines on it. $100! I kid you not. I went to Home Depot and they did it for free.

I agree that highly skilled install work should demand some lofty labor prices cause youre paying for that skill that took years to master, but when you cant even get them to do the simplest of tasks for less than an arm and leg, it does make you want to forget about them and just learn to do it yourself or do without.


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

I think you guys are starting to push it a little too much. I will not argue the facts of good shops and bad shops. But bitching because they want to charge you $100 to cut your box on their saw is stretching it. Ever look up how much a good table saw costs? Not some $200 POS that can not seem to hold its own guide straight. All that stuff costs money to invest in. Plus you have consumables like blades and belts. Then you have the electricity and wear and tear. Then I am 99.9999% sure you do not go to work and slave all day for free. So add in the time it costs for the guy to run the saw. So for a low volume place the over head is pretty high to cut your box. Unlike HD that will do 4 cuts for free then $.50 a cut. But it is very hard to get them to do exact measurement cuts as most do not want the liability.

But back to the point, they have to charge you to keep the lights on and the door open. Stop expecting everything for free. You could always try and counter their offer. They might even take it.


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

BassnTruck said:


> I think you guys are starting to push it a little too much. I will not argue the facts of good shops and bad shops. But bitching because they want to charge you $100 to cut your box on their saw is stretching it. Ever look up how much a good table saw costs? Not some $200 POS that can not seem to hold its own guide straight. All that stuff costs money to invest in. Plus you have consumables like blades and belts. Then you have the electricity and wear and tear. Then I am 99.9999% sure you do not go to work and slave all day for free. So add in the time it costs for the guy to run the saw. So for a low volume place the over head is pretty high to cut your box. Unlike HD that will do 4 cuts for free then $.50 a cut. But it is very hard to get them to do exact measurement cuts as most do not want the liability.
> 
> But back to the point, they have to charge you to keep the lights on and the door open. Stop expecting everything for free. You could always try and counter their offer. They might even take it.


Sure, for using their gear I can see how charging money would make sense

but $100 an hour to install a head unit or door speakers is still outright a ripoff, and that's what the shops charge

Look back to the $80 to run 8awg power wire. I did it myself and it took maybe an hour.

I work a lot harder than that at work and don't get paid anywhere near that.

The price isn't justified for the work.

It's like paying a 5 year old $100 to put the triangle block in the triangle hole


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

2010hhrlt said:


> Sure, for using their gear I can see how charging money would make sense
> 
> but $100 an hour to install a head unit or door speakers is still outright a ripoff, and that's what the shops charge
> 
> ...


Maybe it is maybe it is not a rip off. Lets assume a newer car for the head unit and speakers. We know you have to pay the person to do it. Then you have the materials costs (crimps, solider, heat shrink, ect) what ever is being used. They might even be throwing in the dash kit or wiring harness (maybe). But the big kicker is liability. If they brake your dash or door panel they are going to have to replace it. Even the best installers have this happen from time to time. So it is a simple business cost vs reward. It has to be worth the risk so they charge what they feel they want. You might be surprised what haggling can do in these cases. 

That is what I am trying to say from a business perspective. That is not excusing hacks. But like was already stated you just have to find someone who cares.

I used to be in the car audio game 10+ years ago, but only do little things for myself and friends now. I do home and commercial audio stuff so I have no dog in the car fight, just my experience. But I see the same stuff in the home world.

When the boss man pays the installers crap, you will usually get crap results. Just like anything else.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

When you're in a relatively small area, compared to a Houston or Dallas, you see the same people over and over, but in different shops. I remember back in the late 90's and early 2000's seeing the same guys I see now, but at different shops. Two that I know of went on to open they're own shops, one of which I will not bring my truck back to. I have yet to render a verdict on the next shop. I guess what I'm saying is these guys aren't new to the game. I don't think they are hacks...I think they know how to do a good job, but I think the issue is...not caring. They are going to do just enough to get the job done, but not enough to take it that extra step _*I*_ think they should take. Maybe we are a special group here on this forum, we would do more and we expect more. Maybe the vast majority of clients that frequent shops don't give a crap. All they care about is their peak 5000 watt amp and their 2 15's that bump like their buddies car bumps and the shop guys get tired and wore down from the constant bombardment of that culture. I dunno, just speculating.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

well, op, consider it a lesson learned, the hard way. but, also consider yourself lucky that you've landed in this d.i.y. sanctuary! better to have arrived late than never, and now you have infinite knowledge at your fingertips. welcome to the site! take your time, and search, read, read some more and by all means check out all the installs in the build log forum. there are some real professionals hanging around here and it's nice to have their experience at our disposal.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

1. to the OP, when you say "mount for your car" that comes with speakers...what exactly do you mean?

2. $300 for a pair of fully finished A pillars is IMO quite he bargain...i charge around 400 or more dpending on spekaer, as it takes me total working time of 6-7 hours at least from start to finish.


look i know there are a lot of bad shops, but one thing i know, and this is through meeting hundreds up on hundreds of car audio enthusiasts over the years who did their own work....

it is easy for people to sit here and say things like "no one will ever take as much care with your gear or your car or your install as yourself"...its quite another in real life.

i mean...i would say a vast majority of the DIY installs i have run across and seen on a weekly bassis contain things i personally would NEVER EVER do to a customers car...maybe this is the white elephant in the room that no one likes to talk about, but IMO, to discount ALL SHOPS completely becuase you felt betrayed or let down by 1 or 2 shops is kinda crazy...


i mean if you have bad meals at two resturants, are you going to swear off eating out all together? and just cook yourself everytime? 

again, if you were treated badly by shops i think thats terrible, but please try to keep an open mind, being that you are in my area, i can tell you that there are shops around that are worth checking out.

and one last note, I read people saying " i did this for 50 bucks" or "i did that and it was so easy...etc"

can you show some close up pictures of your finished product? 

becuase i too have heard a LOT of those statements, it all sounds very impressive until one day, you see what they are referring to in person, and then...

I guess i just get a bit mad at these types of sentiments...and the idea that car audio is simple and doesnt deserve to charge money...i cant think of too many other jobs where a person needs to be simultaneously an electrician, carpenter, bodyshop guy, painter, upholster, welder, tuner...etc 

i think bad shops deserve all your hatred, but save some respect for the good guys, and there are plenty of them.

b


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I agree with Bing's statements above on this. Charging $400-$500 for a set of A-pillars seems right to me. 

Let's assume 7 hrs of work and a shop rate of $45 per hour which is not all profit. Out of that $45 an hour comes building rent, electricity, any speciality tools, employee labor cost, insurance ect.

7 x $45= $315 for 7 hours of work or a full day. That leaves $85.00 for parts and supplies.

7 hours ties up one installer all day that will not be doing any other installs that full day. So the cost has to off-set taking an installer out of doing anything else all day.

If you are a store front B&M you cannot make a living on doing custom work. The daily foot traffic is where you pay the bills. 

Charging $80-$100 for a HU install seems about right also. Figure a standard dash kit at $16-$20 plus supplies and shop time. If you brought the HU in then they made zero on any equipment. It is ironic that people go to their jobs and expect to get paid and for their company to turn a profit but when shops are trying to make it and turn a profit it is a huge problem.

Have an electrician or A/C guy come out to your house. 99% Of them already charged you a service fee just to drive to your house. The national average is $75-$100 per hour plus parts/supplies. 

I do agree that there are more crappy shops out there than good shops. The bad shops hurt the good shops, which really sucks for the good guys. The bad shops should be run through the ringer and reviews should be posted about those specific shops in hopes that either they change or shut their doors. It is wrong though to lump all shops together.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> 1. to the OP, when you say "mount for your car" that comes with speakers...what exactly do you mean?
> 
> 2. $300 for a pair of fully finished A pillars is IMO quite he bargain...i charge around 400 or more dpending on spekaer, as it takes me total working time of 6-7 hours at least from start to finish.
> 
> ...


I mostly agree. Your work certainly speaks for itself and I would gladly pay you to install mine. It's obvious that no matter how much love and time I put into my install it will never be as good as one of yours. I don't have the talent, period, and I'm sure with experience comes all kinds of tricks that the average poster will never figure out. 

I would never go to anyone local here because I think they're typical of 90% of the installers out there. When their quality of work is far below what you can achieve on your own within a reasonable time frame, they're not worth paying. I've seen too many cars damaged and not just poor quality but hack jobs that are inexcusable. I dropped my Tl off when it was brand new to have the amp wiring installed because I was working way too much at the time to do it myself. Years later I go under the dash and find that they ran the power wire around the grommet and it was just before grounding out. IMO, that's inexcusable but pretty normal. I was on the road once and my amp went out so I stopped by a shop and bought an amp which they installed. It wasn't until a month later when I went to get the spare that I started removing the screws that held the amp down only to hear a hissing as soon as I removed the first screw. They were at least 3" long going through a 1/4" piece of cardboard and right into the sidewall of my spare. I'm 0-2 so far and I'm not about to try another shop unless it's someone with your reputation. The same can be said for anything else automotive. I dropped my car off to have the AC charged, came back early and the owner of the shop and a passenger were around back doing a burnout in my car, thank God I had installed the valet PROM that set the governor at 30mph. I think it's the whole automotive industry.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't think most people mind paying good money if they can feel assured that their car will come out as planned. Or at least come out in original condition. In fact, as many of us get older and have more disposable income, we'd love to have a quality place to go to. Car installs in Texas, in the summer, are not fun.

I will not pay for terrible service, however.


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## slaming (Jun 7, 2012)

I live overseas, and in this country we have a few blocks of little shops that cater to car audio. They are all pretty much the same; selling cheap pioneer/sony crap for beefed up prices (partially to offset the shipping costs), and ripping you off with installation and cabling. Also, there is no last price, it just depends how much you haggle with them. 

One shop tried to charge me $100 for mediocre Sony components. Another shop tried to charge me $280 for the same ones, telling me that the crossovers are mini amplifiers. In the end, they are all bullshitters trying to catch a sucker. That's why I insist on doing everything myself. If I need to buy locally, I will buy from the large electronic stores with fixed prices. If I need to get a box made, I will go to a carpenter directly. Screw those local shops, I hope they all run out of business.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Just like every other business, they're looking for suckers. I went into a local shop a few weeks ago for ****s and giggles and asked what woofers they would recommend for a 1600wRms amp. The guy was trying to sell me an Orion HCCA 12


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

All it takes is a few bad apples to ruin the whole bunch


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Here is the issue i have...

i think much of the claims against hack shops are very much legitimate...

however, it forms a bandwagon that soon enough, people start to jump on indescriminantly, often lumping perfectly professional and reasonable behavior into it. and its this behavior, IMO, that hurts the good shops, and actually sometimes cuases the good shops to loose faith with a cetain group of customers because they get lumped into the same category as the bad ones in the eye of the forum-sent shopper.

I would say some of these sentiments results from a lack of knowledge or expereience in car audio, and the rest comes from a feeling of superiority that we all know we can suffer from as human beings, especially those involved in a "cool" hobby like car audio.

This is why many good shops, have this inherent distaste for internet forum based customers. and this forms a negative cycle that just makes things worse.

also, I think most people dont ever seek out enough shops in their area before choosing something and then getting screwed and then scratching off their area all together.

to the OP Gordon :

how did you choose to go to audio express and then brentwood audio? kinda odd since they are like two hours apart  one is literally next to my house. 

I have set up the professional installers referal forum just for this purpose, that if someone wants to find a good shop in their area, instead going off of useless internet reviews, they can ask on here and we can provide them with more useful information.

for example, if you had posted on there, i would have suggested quite a few places to go for your work that would have made you much happier IMO. 

*in the end:

complaining about ****ty work being done is totally legit

complaing about ****ty work being done AND being charged a lot of money is legit

but simply complaining about labor rate in general without any qualfications is a bit presumptuous*

b

p.s. i still dont know what a "mount for vehicle" that comes with every speakers is...anyone else? sounds like hes talking about someting specifically for his car? did he mean BBY was offering him a pre-fab spacer ring as part of his "install package" that a brick and motar shop did not?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

So instead of using the power that we hold as a big internet forum to ***** and whine about the same ole hack shops, we should put it to good use and start doing more reviews so people can use the referal subforum as a resource in choosing the RIGHT shop in the future 

Negative reviews of these hack shops are also welcome provided you can back it up with pictures, after all, we all want to punish the hacks and reward the good guys right?

Professional Installer Locator & Review Forum - DIYMA Car Audio Forum


and you can read this thread and chime in:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...orum/134871-knowing-how-choose-installer.html


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I know I stated my rant about a local car audio shop before, but I'll state it again. I went in looking for components for my 1997 Civic, and they didn't have any. The sales associate went on to tell me that a coaxial driver was BETTER because it would give me twice the tweeter. Hook both the stock ones and the aftermarket ones up and enjoy the best of both worlds. 

He also went on to tell me that replacing the stock tweeter was moot because that is the best tweeter for the location. He continued on describing the process of how they play pink noise in the vehicle and select the best tweeter for the stock location. All the while, I'm thinking to myself that some engineer designed a panel that fit a specific sized tweeter and Honda probably bid it out and went with the lowest priced vendor.

A few weeks ago, I went looking for HUs. I was torn between a DEH-80PRS and the Clarion NX702. The Pioneer dealer didn't have the 80 and the Clarion dealer only had the 602. Of course, the Pioneer dealer stated they would "special" order one for me, as long as I paid MSRP up front. He even made a comment that he was surprised that I went in since everyone orders off the internet these days and it is really killing his business. Let's see, authorized from Crutchfield with a Dash kit for $349 or $420 (the quoted MSRP) plus $30 for one of your dash kits, and I still have to wait the same amount of time... I didn't even bother asking him if he would come down a little since I could order it from Crutchfield cheaper because the last time I did, the same shop told me "well, order it from Crutchfield then".

Don't get me wrong, there are still a couple of decent local shops that give good advice and will work with you on the price. Unfortunately those shops aren't authorized Pioneer dealers.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I have no idea what a "mount for his vehicle" is either. Only thing I could think of is a dash kit...maybe a harness adapter.

Because you do an install or two doesn't mean you are an installer. You've probably pulled your own teeth when you were small and you brush your teeth...does that make you a dentist?

And when I was installing at a shop, I wouldn't cut a box out for someone if I wasn't building the box. By the time I did that work, in another 15 minutes the box would have been glued and stapled together. For 20 bux? I would have told you politely to get lost. Why? Because the shop where I worked the installers got paid 38% of the labor price. It just wouldn't be worth it for me to do that work for 6 dollars on my paycheck...before taxes. Not worth it.


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## stewartwms21 (May 20, 2009)

I've been in 3 car audio shops in my life. Once was when I was 16 looking at subs and an amp. The people in that place treated me like crap probably because they thought I was a young kid with no money. Little did they know I was willing to drop some good $$$ for the newest 1997 Rockford Punch set up for my 1954 Chevy police car. That day I told myself that I will NEVER pay somebody else for something I could learn to do on my own. Then there weren't forums like this to learn so it was all trial and error. I would say I had it easier than most as my dad made wood toys and furniture as a hobby so I had access to the tools. The other 2 times I was with friends that asked me to take them to pick their cars up. Each time 2 different shops. They both had problems with lies from the managers. 1 install they didn't is a grommet on the firewall or any silicone and they didn't bother to use wire ties on any of the wires. In the trunk was just a big bird nest of extra power, speaker and rca cables. the other install they were going to run the power wire UNDER the car because it was too hard to get to the firewall because all of the HVAC stuff in the back of the engine compartment. The labor rates at both shops were good too at 55$ & $65hr. so Those are my reasons for being a DIYer when it come to audio or just about anything for that matter.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> I know I stated my rant about a local car audio shop before, but I'll state it again. I went in looking for components for my 1997 Civic, and they didn't have any. The sales associate went on to tell me that a coaxial driver was BETTER because it would give me twice the tweeter. Hook both the stock ones and the aftermarket ones up and enjoy the best of both worlds.
> 
> He also went on to tell me that replacing the stock tweeter was moot because that is the best tweeter for the location. He continued on describing the process of how they play pink noise in the vehicle and select the best tweeter for the stock location. All the while, I'm thinking to myself that some engineer designed a panel that fit a specific sized tweeter and Honda probably bid it out and went with the lowest priced vendor.
> 
> ...



if you dont have a authorized dealer that you TRUST to work with in your area, I think no one can fault you for going online or buy off forums. 

you could also try to ask those shops you DO trust if there is a way they can get pioneer for you, some may not be direct with pioneer but can get pioneer still authorized through a distributor...

again reward the good guys, punish the bad...and if enough of us do that, the whole audio scene will be better for it. the sad part is the bad often do cheap, and that cheapness grabs a lot of customers and "positive" reviews.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

again, i still dont understand why car audio is singled out as the industryt where 2-3 negative experiences makes people swear they'd always DIY...

over my life time i hae had more than 2-3 bad expereinces from the following:

bodyshops
mechanics
banks
telephone/internet providers
restaurants
department stores
ebay/internet sellers


and i think many people will have as well, but i dont see them swearing off those things instantly...


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I know Joe at Brentwood very well. He is a talented installer, great businessman, intolerant of hack installs, and won't let his reputation be sullied by settling for a lower fee. He charges what he charges, and if you don't want to pay it go somewhere else.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> again, i still dont understand why car audio is singled out as the industryt where 2-3 negative experiences makes people swear they'd always DIY...
> 
> over my life time i hae had more than 2-3 bad expereinces from the following:
> 
> ...


Great points! I managed to have both great and not so great experiences with many local businesses, offering a multitude of products and services. I continue to do business with the ones that I had a good experience with, and I tend to stay away from the ones that I had an unpleasant experience with. I let my wallet do the talking.

Now, when it comes to car audio, there are still a couple of local shops and installers that I would trust with my vehicle. I recently recommended one of them to a friend who had a system installed in her daughter's Mustang convertible.


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## NRA4ever (Jul 19, 2010)

I find most shops use half trained kids to install. I used a great shop in Memphis during the 90s Autoradio. Every tech in the shop was certified. They drew up a blueprint of everything in your install. If you wanted a custom system they built you one. They sold me gear at cost because I sent so much business to them. I was on their team in 99 & 2000 in 100 watt SQ. They taught me lots of my install skills. They weren't cheap but they did quality work. Its been sold to a shotty group now & only has the name.


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> again, i still dont understand why car audio is singled out as the industryt where 2-3 negative experiences makes people swear they'd always DIY...
> 
> over my life time i hae had more than 2-3 bad expereinces from the following:
> 
> ...


While I see your point, a lot of those things you can't do or get yourself. You can't rebuild your front end after smashing into some chick who ran a red light because she was texting. I'm not going to go back to dial up or rotary phones because I hate Verizon and can't make my own check card cause my bank screwed me over. Cars are so complex now that you can barely change your own oil so you have to use mechanics. However I can install a CD player with a $60 dash kit with 1 page of instructions from Crutchfield and install door speakers without anything except maybe a spacer cut out of MDF with a jigsaw. I think that's the gripe people have. "You want $100 an hour for something most anybody with common sense can do?" Now building a custom fiberglass dash that's integrated with a carputer well that will demand a high labor rate because that is something that takes years of experience and training and you have to pay for that. I don't think anybody would expect an install like the Alpine Civic from a few years back on $20/hr but they also don't think a simple head unit install should be $100/hr. Just like an eye surgeon can demand $1000/hr for his searvices but the dude that mows your lawn might get $10.

The examples I gave, I guess I can give you the $300 to glass some tweeters into A pillars. It is time consuming but a lot of that time is waiting for curing so it still seems a little high but I can concede $300.

$100 to cut 6 pieces out of a sheet of MDF with cut lines already drawn is obscene. I wouldn't expect free but $20-25 seemed more than fair for something that would've taken less than 5 minutes. That's $175/hr. Same with the $100 to wrap my stock pillars in grill cloth. Took me half an hour so thats $200 an hour. 

The bad salesman thing is a you problem tho. I'm a big PC gamer and builder nerd and know a good bit and I'm here to tell ya, those salesmen at Best Buy will flat out lie to you and rip you off for $100's. I've sat there and listened to them tell customers outrageous lies and sell them something for $300 when a $100 component would've been more than enough. That's when its your responsibility to educate yourself on what's out there and what you need. If you depend on a commissioned salesman to give you honest information then don't come crying when they sell you 4 sets of tweeters so you can be really gangsta.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2


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## KSUWildcatFan (Jun 11, 2006)

I once took my '94 Mustang in to have 6.5" components installed (5x7 factory door locations, 2.5" sailpanel tweet locations). They kind of angled the mid to fit inside the 5x7 location and somehow jimmied two screws in place to hold each speaker from falling out. Gee, I wonder why I had no midbass!?

lmao, so bad. I vowed to never go back to that shop again and up until the other day when I went scouting to see if they had an 80PRS I could play with (I wasn't going to buy from them, I just wanted to see one in action and they're the only place that might have had one), I hadn't been back. I think they've reformed a bit but I still wouldn't give them any of my money based on my last experience...


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

KSUWildcatFan said:


> I once took my '94 Mustang in to have 6.5" components installed (5x7 factory door locations, 2.5" sailpanel tweet locations). They kind of angled the mid to fit inside the 5x7 location and somehow jimmied two screws in place to hold each speaker from falling out. Gee, I wonder why I had no midbass!?
> 
> lmao, so bad. I vowed to never go back to that shop again and up until the other day when I went scouting to see if they had an 80PRS I could play with (I wasn't going to buy from them, I just wanted to see one in action and they're the only place that might have had one), I hadn't been back. I think they've reformed a bit but I still wouldn't give them any of my money based on my last experience...


I think the thing is with experiences like this is that these arent reputable shops with enthusiasts working in them. Ive seen a lot of shops open up where its just some dude that knows how to put a CD player in and decides to open up a shop of his own. Then hires a bunch of his buddies at $8/hr to get things done. I dont think this is how it is with all shops. 

Radio Clinic is the best shop in my town (theyre the ones wanting $100 to cut wood for me) and while their labor rates were stupid in that instance, their work is top notch. These are the guys that could do a custom fiberglass dash and Im confident theyd do a top notch job.

Some of the responsibility does fall on the consumer. You cant just pull into the first shop you drive past and expect Mark Eldgridge level work. Before you turn your baby and hard earned cash over to a shop, you gotta check around and find out stuff for yourself. Thats why youve got guys driving 4+ hours to take their cars to Steve Cook in Alabama cause they know he's one of the best. Most of the time, the shop at the end of the block from you isnt going to be the best place to go and just because they sell car audio gear doesnt always mean they'll do a good job installing it for you. I know a lot about car audio but am a horrible installer. I could open a shop but God help you if you ever hire me to do any install work for you.


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## St. Dark (Mar 19, 2008)

I definitely like the idea of specifying how you think you want things done. BUT- be aware, and prepared, to pay for the time & effort to do that work. Or, if there is acimpelling reason to do it a differently, trust that they are the experts and let them do their jobs (if they're not experts, why are you there?). And realize that the "I don't get paid $80/hr, why should I pay them that" logic is horribly flawed as it leaves a major step out of the equation. The instal tech isn't getting paid $80/hr, tge shop charges that to cover his payroll, taxes, overhead, et cetera et ceterum. And, unless the have guys dedicated to "simpler" work (less common with smaller shops), the hourly rate is the hourly rate on easier work. The tech is spending part of his limited supply of time on the job, which is time he can't spend on more complex jobs... It comes down, in some cases, to what is your time worth to you? Would you rather do it or pay money and do something else? 
So, yes, it may not be hard to do a radio, but it takes an hour, AND we want soldered connections etc (quality work); well, it's gonna run am hour's worth of the shop rate. We can't expect to demand a certain level of work out of one side of our mouth and then complain about the price from the other side.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

My rate is $80 an hour. you aren't paying me to do something you cannot necessarily do yourself. You're paying me to do something I do day in and day out as a professional considerably better than most. This is my job, I am one of the best in the world at it, and I'm damned proud of that fact. I charge a premium (actually, $80 is typical shop rate) for the skills I've spent 22 years perfecting, and I'm not giving you a discount just because you think you can do it, too. If you don't want to pay $80 an hour for me to do it, then go somewhere else. I'm fine with that. You won't hurt my feelings, but know this: All ranges of people, from my neighbors and co-workers, to major 12 volt manufacturers pay me to do their work because I'm one of the best. If you want the best come see me. If you are willing to settle for less then less is what you'll get when you go elsewhere.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

My experiences with bodyshops, Verizon, etc have been way worse than my car audio experiences. But car audio is optional unlike having a phone or getting the car repaired. I literally got my car repaired at the body shop and had the lower a-arm come off while going down the freeway. Not only did we almost die while trying to keep the car from making a turn in the middle of the freeway, it was disabled sitting across two lanes of traffic. After that experience I would never take my car to any body shop again if it could be avoided but unfortunately it can't be while car audio can be avoided. 

As I get older and have less and less time on my hands and a little more money in my pocket I lean more toward paying for jobs I used to do myself. If I could pay $80 an hour and know the work would be better than my own I would probably do it. But that's not going to happen locally, my work isn't great, I would say it's very average at best, but it's on a different level than the installers around here so I'm certainly not going to pay someone a penny to do worse work than I can do.

The other difference is something like bodywork is not fun but installing audio can be fun as long as you have the time to do the work. I only get stressed when I have the inside of the car stripped out and need it for work the next day.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> My experiences with bodyshops, Verizon, etc have been way worse than my car audio experiences. But car audio is optional unlike having a phone or getting the car repaired. I literally got my car repaired at the body shop and had the lower a-arm come off while going down the freeway. Not only did we almost die while trying to keep the car from making a turn in the middle of the freeway, it was disabled sitting across two lanes of traffic. After that experience I would never take my car to any body shop again if it could be avoided but unfortunately it can't be while car audio can be avoided.
> 
> As I get older and have less and less time on my hands and a little more money in my pocket I lean more toward paying for jobs I used to do myself. If I could pay $80 an hour and know the work would be better than my own I would probably do it. But that's not going to happen locally, my work isn't great, I would say it's very average at best, but it's on a different level than the installers around here so I'm certainly not going to pay someone a penny to do worse work than I can do.
> 
> The other difference is something like bodywork is not fun but installing audio can be fun as long as you have the time to do the work. I only get stressed when I have the inside of the car stripped out and need it for work the next day.


Wow man that sounds like it was scary as hell. why on earth would a body shop even mess with a lower a arm?. I would have sued them for every penny they have.


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

Richv72 said:


> Wow man that sounds like it was scary as hell. why on earth would a body shop even mess with a lower a arm?. I would have sued them for every penny they have.


I worked at a body shop in high school. Depending on the damage it may be needed to properly straighten the frame. Or it was replaced because of damage.


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

i am with bing on this and i would have no problem paying him for his products and his services. with that said i have seen some shops work around where i live some do some awesome work some don't. those that do the awesome work are mainly on their own cars or customers with big bank accounts. most people want the cheapest of the cheap and so well that what you give customer. sad to watch my buddy do a job that could be really nice but he had to make it a plain jane install because that is what they wanted and paid for.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

there's something i've never understood about a scenario like this. for example, swearing off an establishment because of a bad experience. now, depending on the type of the offense, justification can be had. but, if somebody goes into a place (regardless of service type;audio, food, automotive, etc) and pays for services rendered and find out that the results are sub-par and gets bent out of shape because they didn't know what they were getting into, then i do not agree with that. if you don't educate yourself a little bit about what you're paying for then expect somebody to try to sell you anything! i know, trust me, i sold musical instruments at a very, very recognizable outfit and if my customer knew their ****, then i sold them what they needed. however, if a naive, uneducated customer came in waving money around like it's going out of style, then you'd better believe i tried to sell them something they didn't ultimately need. i think this accounts for alot of the car audio shop horror stories. did i feel good about it? no, but they got the best customer service that i could give them because i wanted them to come back, that, and it was the only way i could pay bills! so, if you don't know what you want, where you want it and what it should sound, look like and aren't satisfied with what you got, dont be so surprised. retail places expect todays consumer to be well informed and pre-educated about a product before purchase. 

now, however, if you paid for a product and didn't get what you wanted, then i get it. it's hard to disagree when it's an install-related complaint. 

i hope that didn't sound retarded, i just tried to shed some light on the topic from an objective view, play the devil's advocate, and to get people to take some responsibility. i used to patronize a local shop, which was always good to me (no labor, just gear) but later found that i might've been manipulated or over/under-sold on products simply because i wasn't exactly sure what i wanted. i guess that's all i wanted to say about that


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i am still waiting on an explanation regarding the OP's thing about vehicle specific mounts that come with speakers...still mightily confused about that and why its a reason not to go to Brentwood car audio.


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm not trying to jump into any arguments or have a big debate over anything here. *I'll make this as plain & simple as possible.*
It seems like the cost of keeping a business open & living seems to often get overlooked in this Industry. I don't hear as many complaints about other professions that charge more per hour. This is how many of us keep food on the table & some feel we charge rediculous prices. I don't know too many installers rolling up to the shop in a Ferarri.*

A lot goes into what we do to ensure a job is done properly. I'm sure you can get about anyone to pull an 8 gauge through your car & I know you will find plenty of people that will do it for less than I charge. Why are we more? I refer to the process as Integration rather than Installation. A lot of engineering & planning goes into the process when a manufacture *builds a car. We've all seen installations that were thrown into a car. The installer pulls a few panels, lifts the carpet, & pushes the wire under the carpet, slaps the carpet down & Sheetrock screws the amp onto the back of the seat. Pulls that car out & pulls in one of 6 more waiting in the parking lot for the day. Now compare that to someone that pulls the car into the bay, tapes up any part of the car he will be working on, stores panels on designated shelves or stands, labels what each fastener secures & how things go together, secures all wiring in a manner that factory or better, solders connections to ensure all connections meet or exceed factory specifications, uses Rivnuts instead of screws to mount equipment on a steel frame to ensure it lasts the life of the car. I could go on but you get the point. *Many of us strive for every installation to represent factory or Better! If I cannot attach my name to a vehicle it doesnt leave! That is Integration! *You worked hard for your car didnt you? Which one of these jobs would you want in your car? It makes sense that a job like this would cost more doesn't it!*





Jon Webb
Performance Audio Las Vegas
7035 W Sahara Ave. STE 200
Las Vegas NV 89117
(702) 538-8678

Mobile Electronics Magazine 2010-2011 Installer of the Year

Car Stereo Installation, Car Audio Installation, Custom Car Stereo, Custom Car Audio | Performance Audio of Las Vegas, Nevada

Proud Retailer of ARC Audio, Hybrid Audio, JL Audio, Audison, Hertz, Compustar, K40, Second Skin


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Well said, Jon.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Richv72 said:


> Wow man that sounds like it was scary as hell. why on earth would a body shop even mess with a lower a arm?. I would have sued them for every penny they have.


The first time was actually the nut that held the lower balljoint to the control arm. The factory nut has a large flange like a built in washer. They used the wrong nut which happened to be smaller than the hole in the control arm. All that held it together for a couple days was gravity.

The second time they didn't tighten the bolt that connects the lower control arm to the subframe; the pivot point. I took it back then them when the car would make a hard left anytime I hit the brakes and had a terrible clunk. I had heard something bounce off the floor board, figured it was a rock but it turned out to be the nut holding the bolt in. Drove for a day like that before taking it in. 

I took it back a total of 17 times to this particular body shop for everything from paint quality to bigger things like skidding down the freeway without a driver's front tire. I could go on and on about the things they did wrong like a bad steering rack that required two hands and all of my strength to turn the steering wheel and would stay where ever you pointed it, no self straightening that they tried to tell me was a tire defect and not their work but I don't want to derail the thread. I'm lucky I didn't get sued after the freeway incident. I've gotten pissed before but never actually had it come to blows before that incident. They also got theirs in court and my insurance which was one of their primary customers blacklisted them. I continue to get them anytime a tire so much as wears funny I take it to them to have free tires put on. It makes some of the car audio screwups seem not so bad.

The only bad install I've ever seen jeopardize safety is when I worked at a transmission shop. One of our mechanics put a car up on a lift and smoke immediately began pouring out of it and it caught fire before the tires were even off the ground. The shop had run the power wire OUTSIDE of the car and it grounded out when the lift smashed it into the frame. It was a lot of years ago but I don't think it had a fuse because it continued shorting out until it could be lowered all the way to the ground.


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## tophatjimmy (Dec 16, 2005)

simplicityinsound said:


> i am still waiting on an explanation regarding the OP's thing about vehicle specific mounts that come with speakers...still mightily confused about that and why its a reason not to go to Brentwood car audio.


The only thing I can think of are these:
Picture 8 of 12 for Kenwood KFC-P709PS

or maybe these?:
Picture 9 of 12 for Kenwood KFC-P709PS

Maybe he owns a Chrysler product and wanted the 3 prong speaker adapters, but the PG speaks didn't come with them?


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

brett said:


> so, if you don't know what you want,
> 
> 
> retail places expect todays consumer to be well informed and pre-educated about a product before purchase.


But I knew exactly what I wanted and had found it in a cheaper speaker set, and the guy said that NO speakers have this, but the kenwoods I tried a month before (At best buy, of all places) DID.

So what you said doesn't really make sense. I WAS educated, and knew EXACTLY what I wanted, but the guy working there clearly just tried to play me off as a fool who didn't know anything, just so I would agree and spend money.



simplicityinsound said:


> i am still waiting on an explanation regarding the OP's thing about vehicle specific mounts that come with speakers...still mightily confused about that and why its a reason not to go to Brentwood car audio.


As I said above, I KNEW that some components came with the mounts for my stock a-pillar tweeter mount. The guy there tried to convince me that "NO SPEAKERS EVER MADE come with these, because there are just too many vehicles to do this"



tophatjimmy said:


> The only thing I can think of are these:
> 
> 
> or maybe these?:
> Picture 9 of 12 for Kenwood KFC-P709PS


bingo. That's exactly the set I tried from best buy and as you can see, they did come with a bracket/mount for the stock tweeter bolts/mount. 

Now, if I'm going in there willing to spend MORE for what should be a better brand since it's a car audio shop after all, you would think they would come with it, especially after seeing a cheaper pair (again, at best buy of all places) that did.

Not only that, but I had to pry the receptionist just to get her to tell me that I can take the a-pillar off and have them make a custom mount for it instead of paying for the entire installation of the component set (which is obviously a more costly route)


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

2010hhrlt said:


> But I knew exactly what I wanted and had found it in a cheaper speaker set, and the guy said that NO speakers have this, but the kenwoods I tried a month before (At best buy, of all places) DID.
> 
> So what you said doesn't really make sense. I WAS educated, and knew EXACTLY what I wanted, but the guy working there clearly just tried to play me off as a fool who didn't know anything, just so I would agree and spend money.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity, how many cars do you think have the same factory tweeter mounting type that we do in our HHR's? Those Kenwoods are the first ones I have ever seen that have that kind of mounting option. Before you rule that company out look around for yourself and try to find more brands beside Kenwood that have them. If you find them then report back on here.



FWIW I swapped my stock tweets out for some Polks and just used some plumbers tape to secure them in place. The Polks had foam backing on them so I just had to cut the tape to the needed length and bolt them down. You can easily build little brackets out of ABS or acrylic or heck even wood if you rather. Shouldn't cost more then $10 max.


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

07azhhr said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many cars do you think have the same factory tweeter mounting type that we do in our HHR's? Those Kenwoods are the first ones I have ever seen that have that kind of mounting option. Before you rule that company out look around for yourself and try to find more brands beside Kenwood that have them. If you find them then report back on here.


I guess it's pretty coincidental that the first set I tried had them.

The guy still could have said that he is pretty sure that no speaker sets will have those.

That just shows HIS ignorance in the car audio field, doesn't it?

Think about how that looks to me. Would you want to go back to that shop?


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

PerformanceAudioLVNV said:


> I'm not trying to jump into any arguments or have a big debate over anything here. *I'll make this as plain & simple as possible.*
> It seems like the cost of keeping a business open & living seems to often get overlooked in this Industry. I don't hear as many complaints about other professions that charge more per hour. This is how many of us keep food on the table & some feel we charge rediculous prices. I don't know too many installers rolling up to the shop in a Ferarri.*
> 
> A lot goes into what we do to ensure a job is done properly. I'm sure you can get about anyone to pull an 8 gauge through your car & I know you will find plenty of people that will do it for less than I charge. Why are we more? I refer to the process as Integration rather than Installation. A lot of engineering & planning goes into the process when a manufacture *builds a car. We've all seen installations that were thrown into a car. The installer pulls a few panels, lifts the carpet, & pushes the wire under the carpet, slaps the carpet down & Sheetrock screws the amp onto the back of the seat. Pulls that car out & pulls in one of 6 more waiting in the parking lot for the day. Now compare that to someone that pulls the car into the bay, tapes up any part of the car he will be working on, stores panels on designated shelves or stands, labels what each fastener secures & how things go together, secures all wiring in a manner that factory or better, solders connections to ensure all connections meet or exceed factory specifications, uses Rivnuts instead of screws to mount equipment on a steel frame to ensure it lasts the life of the car. I could go on but you get the point. *Many of us strive for every installation to represent factory or Better! If I cannot attach my name to a vehicle it doesnt leave! That is Integration! *You worked hard for your car didnt you? Which one of these jobs would you want in your car? It makes sense that a job like this would cost more doesn't it!*


Yeah that sounds great, but that's not how the first shop I went to did it.

And they DID have a pimped out 2005 or newer lexus, 20" expensive chrome wheels, rubber band tires, nice paint.

I guess it does come down to not all car audio shops being the same. But if that's the case, why are some even allowed to operate like that? It gives car audio shops a bad name.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

2010hhrlt said:


> I guess it's pretty coincidental that the first set I tried had them.
> 
> The guy still could have said that he is pretty sure that no speaker sets will have those.
> 
> ...


No not realy any ignorance seen from him. I would not be detered from going there from that response. That set is a fairly cheap set and is probably one of the only sets to have something like that for tweeter. Usually you get flush surface and or angle adapters. BUT specific bolt pattern adapters is not a common included adapter for tweets. 

Again try looking around for yourself and you will see just how few there are. This might make you see the light from his side of the street.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

Here take a look at this site. They sell vehicle specific speaker adapters including for tweeters. When you look up our cars they only show the door speaker adapters. Of all the tweeter adapters that they show, not one looks like it would work for us like that Kenwood one does. 

PVC Speaker Adapters - CNC Machined - In Stock or Custom Made


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

2010hhrlt said:


> I guess it's pretty coincidental that the first set I tried had them.
> 
> The guy still could have said that he is pretty sure that no speaker sets will have those.
> 
> ...


If that shop does not sale that brand they would have no clue that Kenwood made those. 

So I do not agree that this shows his ignorance about the products he sells. He is only required to know the brands he sells. So to the best of his knowledge he answered accordingly and within the brands they sale.



2010hhrlt said:


> Now, if I'm going in there willing to spend MORE for what should be a better brand since it's a car audio shop after all, you would think they would come with it, especially after seeing a cheaper pair (again, at best buy of all places) that did.


What would make you think the more expensive brand would have those brackets or should provide those brackets. Kenwood is catering with those IMO to people who just want to do a direct swap on the cheap in a specific vehicle.



2010hhrlt said:


> Not only that, but I had to pry the receptionist just to get her to tell me that I can take the a-pillar off and have them make a custom mount for it instead of paying for the entire installation of the component set (which is obviously a more costly route)


You came into a shop talking about a pair of $80.00 speakers from Kenwood. Could it have been that you already seemed irritated that the more expensive speakers did not come with a mounting bracket. So now you want them to try and sale you on doing some a-pillars at a cost of $150-$250.

Let me ask you this what is total buget you wanted to spend when you walked into that shop. Based on your comments I have a feeling you aswell became or showed an outward appereance to the shop staff that you thought their prices where to expensive and had no itentions of spending the kind of money for product or install work at the prices they would be asking. 

So agian what was the total budget that you had in mind when you walked into the car audio shop?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Probably free because the world owes us everything. We are entitled.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

2010hhrlt said:


> But I knew exactly what I wanted and had found it in a cheaper speaker set, and the guy said that NO speakers have this, but the kenwoods I tried a month before (At best buy, of all places) DID.
> 
> So what you said doesn't really make sense. I WAS educated, and knew EXACTLY what I wanted, but the guy working there clearly just tried to play me off as a fool who didn't know anything, just so I would agree and spend money.
> 
> ...


hey, i am going to be straightforward so please dont take this the wrong way...I am not trying to put you down, but i want to express my opinion clearly on this issue...and perhaps it can help you understand a lil bit about the first shop (brentwood car audio) as well.

1. Those mountings that came with the kenwood tweeter are NOT for some reason HHR specific mounting rings. They are simply a universal adapter kit that tries its best to fit into SOME OEM locations. it has four prongs and you can cut 1 or 2 off or all off and hopefully stick it in some factory location. your car is perhaps just lucky that it can work with it...did you ever acutally fit the tweeter in your car using that cup? or is this based simply on what the BBY salesman told you "buy these awesome kenwoods and they even make mounting cups specifically for your car!!" 

That is really no more than a typical surface mounting cup (that almost all components come with) with four little tabs. the idea that somehow this makes it a HHR specific moutning ring and suggests to you that many other speakers come with such an option, is either a misunderstanding, or result of some tricky salesmanship at BBY that had you fooled. 


2. no expereience car audio person, certainly not the more experienced peeps here on DIYMA, would ever go to BBY to look at some lower line (or higher line for that matter these days) kenwood speakers, or even think about going to look at them. those products are, lets say...are not kenwoods strong suit. so imagine a shop who had a lil more high end stuff, how would you expect the owner to know about some gimmick that comes on some very low end speakers that happens to work on some cars?

3.your car isnt exactly the most commonly seen vehicle,the likelihood of someone with that car and goes out shopping for something as cheap as kenwood KFCs is even more remote, and again, i doubt any good shop owner would ever have experienced it.

4. think of it this way...say intead of buying a set of speakers, you are buying a cordless drill. and let say you go to this cheapo discount store and this have this crap cheap drill there that has a gimmicky thing where on the handling strap of the drill, there is a suction cup. and the salesman tells you, this is the most awesome thing ever! say you are working and you dont want to set the drill onto the floor, well, you can suction cup this thing on a verticle surface!!

well, they dont tell you that the ONLY time this would ever work is if you were working next to a panel of class, clean from oil residue and dust. any other surface, it would never hold...total gimmick. well, maybe it just happens the first job you were gonna use it for is in the bathroom next to your glass shower door, and you think, wow this drill really IS designed with me in mind! 

so you think if a cheapo drill comes with such a great accessory, surely more expensive ones must! so you go to a higher end store and ask for it. the owner, who would have never even looked at that cheapo brand model and know about the gimmick, tells you that no such thing exists, but, they do sell professional sucktion cup hooks you can mate to a surface and hang anything off of, but its an extra $50. well...you flip out and call him a liar and thief and go on a tool forum and call him and his shop out... you may think you have a legit case, but to anyone who is experienced in the tool world, they would see what is happening here...

5. so instead of telling us this story...if you had posted a question on DIYMA of "Do any aftermarket speakers come with vehicle specific mounts for my HHR", what do you think the answer would be. i myself would have said, "most definitely not to my knowledge", and i would imagine most of the people here would have said the same...and we would all be correct, becuase in the end, the "HHR SPECIFIC" mount you are talking about, is no more than a universal mount with little tabs that may or may not work on some vehicle, its no different than ANY OTHER mount that comes with any other speaker, whcih may or may not work on some cars.

infact, if you looked at the kenwood's manual, you will see the universale nature of that mount and most of the time, its just mean to be physically screwed into sheet metal of a vehicles door so it can sit in the stock location. is it a bad idea? no of course not, but there are almost no cars that i would utilize it at all.

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/113/113KFCP709.PDF

Overall... I think your attitude, on display now for calling someone you have met once and had one exchange with a fool and other names, coupled with your lack of experience and knowledge, which despite your claim to the contrary, is quite obvious to anyone with a lot of time and experience in the industry...becuase for one, you wouldn't have thought those were "vehicle specific mounts"... these two things prolly combined to come out when you met the owner of Brentwood car audio, and this is probably what got him mad and thus came off as "angry sounding". I would get annoyed too if someone who obviously have little experience comes into my shop and brings attitude. 

Again, I am not here to berate you, and again, notice i did not mention the second shop at all, because i think you have a totally legit claim there...but the whole case about Brentwood car audio is IMO totally groundless. he may have not been the sweetest and nicest person to you, but he certainly did NOTHING to deserve being called a fool or crook or anything to that matter. and I feel as someone who is part of this industry, i need to speak my mind and make sure OTHERS who read this thread understands this.

Again, i still am offering my help to you if you need referals to good shops or a general helping hand from time to time...but i hope honestly you will see your mistake in the first shop's case.

b


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

MacLeod said:


> While I see your point, a lot of those things you can't do or get yourself. You can't rebuild your front end after smashing into some chick who ran a red light because she was texting. I'm not going to go back to dial up or rotary phones because I hate Verizon and can't make my own check card cause my bank screwed me over. Cars are so complex now that you can barely change your own oil so you have to use mechanics. However I can install a CD player with a $60 dash kit with 1 page of instructions from Crutchfield and install door speakers without anything except maybe a spacer cut out of MDF with a jigsaw. I think that's the gripe people have. "You want $100 an hour for something most anybody with common sense can do?" Now building a custom fiberglass dash that's integrated with a carputer well that will demand a high labor rate because that is something that takes years of experience and training and you have to pay for that. I don't think anybody would expect an install like the Alpine Civic from a few years back on $20/hr but they also don't think a simple head unit install should be $100/hr. Just like an eye surgeon can demand $1000/hr for his searvices but the dude that mows your lawn might get $10.
> 
> The examples I gave, I guess I can give you the $300 to glass some tweeters into A pillars. It is time consuming but a lot of that time is waiting for curing so it still seems a little high but I can concede $300.
> 
> ...


I will address 1 and 2. 

1. here is the simple truth...if you are fully confident in your ability to install a cd player in your car with or without crutchfield's master guys, why would you ever go to a shop for it?? So basically, by the fact that a person goes to a shop and finds out about these "outrageous prices", they are not confident enough to do it themselves.

you mentioned that "cars are so complex" its hard to change oil now. did you ever think about how the complexity affects the installation of a headunit?

do you think the average joe, who maybe once slide a single din cd player into his toyota corolla is fully equipped to lets say put in a all in one nav with BT and Ipod into his..lets say brand new escalade? or ford focus with my touch? can you? do you know exactly waht you need right now and what to do to avoid issues? 

do i charge 100 bucks an hour? no i dont, but i dont think too many shops charge that much unless you are not buying the HU from them. and while i dont charge 100 bucks an hour, i CERTAINLY charge at least 100 bucks to do a full all in one nav system into most late model cars, and as much as 2-300 on some more complicated ones. putting in all in one into a G35 with oem nav and still retain nav voice for example, is one of hte most time consuming thing there is despite being "just a headunit install job".


2. okay two things here...how long does it take YOU to build a set of A pillars?

for me, NOT counting curing time:

1. remove A pillars, inspect area behind pillars to see where the tweter can go, where it cannot, meausre, mark, clean the pillar to be free of residue, someimes sand it 30-40mins

2. make ring mounts for tweeters, 15 or so mins

3. meausre, mark, angle, aim sometimes test listening the rings, this is very time consuming to get right, 30mins to 1hr (i have spent full days on some builds just on aiming the tweeter to try and get it right but that wont apply here)

4. pull grille clooth, secure to pillar, ensure the shapes match, apply resin: 30 mins

drying

5. cut and trim the opening across the ring, pour reinforcement into pillar, all four sides. to make it solid, not counting drying time: 30 mins to 45 mins

6. rough sand and test fit in car with tweeter, make usre angle and fitment is correct: 15 mins

7. bondo, filler sanding, this varies wildly dependant on the pillar, not counting curing time of the fillar, this takes me on average about 1.5hr at least from start to where i am happy with the final shape. somtimes 2 hours or more

8. final test fitment, wash the oils from the surface, some cars, paint it a cetain color if wrapping wtih grille cloth: 15 mins

9. wap both pillars, again, heavily depenant on the shape, but in general, from star to finish about 45 mins. carefully trimming the back and make sure its all tacked up in the right locations.

10. put in tweeter, secure it, add sound proofing if needed on the back of it: 15 mins

11. install back into vehicle, hook up, test, 15 mins.

so lets see, that is 5.5 hrs to 6.6 hours withOUT counting drying time, and other small delays, a typical set of A pillars takes me 1.5 days of my full attention to do at the VERY least, most usually 2 days or so. just the sanding and prep part takes me most of a full afternoon. as you are not a machine and cannot sand for 2 hours straight without taking breaks in the middle.

having said that...

when you go get an oil change, do you make sure that the time the oil is being drained, as the mechnic sits around and does nothing, is not counted as part of the labor? cuase on some cars, thats like the longest part of the entire process.

or when your car is being painted, do u make sure the curing time of the paint is not factored into the overall cost? like if the guy tells you, well this hood is gonna take me 2 days to do, so it costs you 500 bucks, do you say, well at least half a day or more is it drying, so you are only working on it for 1.5 days, so i should only pay you $375?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Bing that goes back to the cutting wood for a box. Most of the time is cutting of the wood. It doesn't take long to glue it up and staple it. And less time to carpet it. By the time I spent cutting it out, I did the "hard" work and a majority of the work...if I am going to do all of that, why should I charge so much less money than just building the damn thing myself for you? Atleast that way I know if something ever went wrong, I could stand behind the work and warranty it. Not to mention if your cut sheet was wrong and wood thickness was not factored in everywhere, you would either end up with an enclosure that at the best wasn't what you wanted, or at worse wouldn't fit together causing me to charge you more money to cut it again (provided you supplied enough wood to do so) and you walking away calling me a hack.

Not saying MacLeod would have done this or pointing him out, but these are the things that do happen. And once it happens, you are probably going to say you will pass the next time you are presented with that situation.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Bing that goes back to the cutting wood for a box. Most of the time is cutting of the wood. It doesn't take long to glue it up and staple it. And less time to carpet it. By the time I spent cutting it out, I did the "hard" work and a majority of the work...if I am going to do all of that, why should I charge so much less money than just building the damn thing myself for you? Atleast that way I know if something ever went wrong, I could stand behind the work and warranty it. Not to mention if your cut sheet was wrong and wood thickness was not factored in everywhere, you would either end up with an enclosure that at the best wasn't what you wanted, or at worse wouldn't fit together causing me to charge you more money to cut it again (provided you supplied enough wood to do so) and you walking away calling me a hack.
> 
> Not saying MacLeod would have done this or pointing him out, but these are the things that do happen. And once it happens, you are probably going to say you will pass the next time you are presented with that situation.



o comon you ARE a HACK! HACKALACK!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Shhh, damn don't tell everyone!


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## Jrvtecaccord (Jul 3, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> I literally got my car repaired at the body shop and had the lower a-arm come off while going down the freeway.


Same crap happened to me, although I was fortune enough to just exit the freeway and I was only going 20-30 MPH. I took the car to have the shocks/struts replaced and I can only assume the nut wasn't properly tighten nor the safety pin was used. It eventually caused ~$2K worth of damage that they refused to pay. I let my insurance handle the issue, now that I think about it I should have sued them, the scenario could have been much worse.

Regarding car audio shops, I don't think anyone mentioned that there are different types of shops. As with anything else, you have a range from low to high end shops. Don't expect to go into a low end shop and expect a high end install. If you want quality it's going to cost you, and I would gladly pay if I can't handle myself.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Jrvtecaccord said:


> Same crap happened to me, although I was fortune enough to just exit the freeway and I was only going 20-30 MPH. I took the car to have the shocks/struts replaced and I can only assume the nut wasn't properly tighten nor the safety pin was used. It eventually caused ~$2K worth of damage that they refused to pay. I let my insurance handle the issue, now that I think about it I should have sued them, the scenario could have been much worse.
> 
> Regarding car audio shops, I don't think anyone mentioned that there are different types of shops. As with anything else, you have a range from low to high end shops. Don't expect to go into a low end shop and expect a high end install. If you want quality it's going to cost you, and I would gladly pay if I can't handle myself.


Who do you go to in DFW?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Maybe part of the problem is the labor rate is similar from the hack shops to the really great installers. Word of mouth seems to be the only way to know the difference.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> Maybe part of the problem is the labor rate is similar from the hack shops to the really great installers. Word of mouth seems to be the only way to know the difference.


yeah, u are absolutely correct...

in general: shops that try to hammer you with low prices to get you in = avoid

shops that seem to stay wtih a lofty price range in general do good work from my experience though not aways

but vast majority of shops out there are charging similar rates doing vastly different work.

hence again, why i wanted to start the referal and review subforum 

now if i can only get people to get off their butts and put up some reviews...good and bad, it would help a lot...

these experiences you are speaking of on here, post a review and it would help others avoid them and thus increase their chances of finding a good shop 

b


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## Jrvtecaccord (Jul 3, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> Who do you go to in DFW?


I haven't had to use a shop for an install, but have to build a box. I had Autosound in Arlington build one box with no problems and had them built a second box with problems, won't get into details. But if I need something done, more than likely fiberglass work I will be taking it to Mobile Sound Systems in Arlington. From the times I've stopped by they were more than willing to answer my questions, it's rare to find that CS level in any trade.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

Jrvtecaccord said:


> Same crap happened to me, although I was fortune enough to just exit the freeway and I was only going 20-30 MPH. I took the car to have the shocks/struts replaced and I can only assume the nut wasn't properly tighten nor the safety pin was used. It eventually caused ~$2K worth of damage that they refused to pay. I let my insurance handle the issue, now that I think about it I should have sued them, the scenario could have been much worse.
> 
> Regarding car audio shops, I don't think anyone mentioned that there are different types of shops. As with anything else, you have a range from low to high end shops. Don't expect to go into a low end shop and expect a high end install. If you want quality it's going to cost you, and I would gladly pay if I can't handle myself.


Well nowadays great installers and shops are voted on by popularity,not the work they do. I saw the installer of the year list, and audio shop of the year list, all those guys pander on forums for votes. Anyone who has a computer can vote for installer of the year, even if they dont have the slightest idea what they are voting on. If the installer/con artist wins they will hang that plaque up proudly as if it was their work that earned it for them. So what defines a great shop? word of mouth from the guy that didnt get screwed over?


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## MacLeod (Aug 16, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> Maybe part of the problem is the labor rate is similar from the hack shops to the really great installers. Word of mouth seems to be the only way to know the difference.


That's a very good point. Or the problem could also be the rate is the same regardless of the job. Something that any doofus with a screwdriver and roll of electrical tape could do shouldn't cost $100/hr whereas something that takes experience, skill and training like fiberglassing or remote starts or something like that, $100/hr would be reasonable because you're paying for that experience, skill and training. Rates that are dependant on the job you're wanting would be more reasonable and maybe more people would be willing to pay. I would've gladly paid my local shop $50 to wrap my A-pillars in grill cloth but for $100, Ill just do it myself. But if I want a remote start, Ill gladly pay $100/hr cause I wouldn't have a clue how to do it myself.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Well after reading all three pages of this I have to chime in. Yes it is an expensive hobby that we have but as with any other hobby, you have to pay to play. You gentlemen have brought up several justified reasons both pro/con on audio shops. Yes just because the specialist up the street is charging $100 per hour doesn't mean Johnny screwdriver should also. We've all at one point and time have met Mr. Mcgyver, you know the person who thinks he can do it all with a piece of string, gum, and a screwdriver. Sure there will be people who take their cars to him, and he will get the install done, but at what price. I'm not trying to justify the prices that shops charge, but the key note of that is liability. Being in the medical field is a very costly endeavour if you mess up. One slip and you will be working for that patient. So imagine if you take your car into a shop and they scratch your fender. Then we all know the amount of work needed to make it better then new. Yes shops just like physicians have insurance to cover accidents but that comes with a price. When you keep filing, they keep increasing. How do you keep doing it so that you make a profit, you pass on that increased cost. As things go up in costs, your profit starts to drop. As a business owner you don't want nor can afford that. So that costs has to go somewhere and believe you me, they aren't in business for the looks. I make my money off of other peoples desire to have more then what they've had before. Are my rates high, yes but people pay them because I produce what they want/need. Do I get asked why I charge so much, not after they receive their first check. Thanks for taking the time to read this and remember this is just one man's opinion not the be all.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I've had some good experiences and some not so good experiences in car audio. One thing I noticed when I did the fakeheadphones.com thing, is people who don't respect other peoples money usually get pulled up for it. 

Experiences are different for everyone. What one person considers to be a total disgrace, someone else may let slide. Generally, the experiences I’ve had of customer service in the CA industry in the UK has been nothing short of a joke. However I have had many open and friendly phonecalls from people within the CA.

I don't care what people think of me, but you will respect my money. You rarely get a second chance to take my money. That's why I don't buy certain products anymore. As and when things go wrong, what happens? Well if you didn't answer my emails before, then what confidence do i have in emailing you with a problem or concern after i've bought from you?

I emailed Digital Designs 3 times, didn't here a thing from them. I emailed Ground Zero late Sunday night, got the reply by lunchtime Monday. So which subwoofer do you think I bought?

Rang the Morel UK distributor for a price on the Primo Subwofer. Three times I got; can I ring you back. Nothing! So I rang the JL distributor, who gave me a price, plus some install advice. Who do you think my money went to?

The Last time I went into a car audio shop in Plymouth (UK) The guy was sitting down at the desk, never got up, never welcomed me, never asked me if I needed any help, and barely spoke to me. But he did say he'd charge me over £100 for a cable refit after my sub cut out. Went to the next CA shop, friendly, asked me what the problem was, gave me a metaphorical slap on the wrist, said I simply needed to upgrade my cable … 4 gauge would cover it … less than £30 spent and done. 

Its not so much about a business person having to make enough profit to put food on the table and all that, we all have to do that regardless! Its simply about how someone is prepared to do business, and its obvious that people have different ideas on how to go about relieving customers of their hard earned.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

When i go into a stereo shop I feel like im boxed in, maybe because the employees usually outnumber the customers. I mean you get inside the place, its empty, everything is overpriced. At that point im looking for the door to get out. Ill stick to buying things online, because at least I wont have some desperate store owner breathing down my neck.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I also hasten to add, that many retailers complain about internet sales. from my point of view, I can either choose to pay £450 for a new Pioneer HU, or buy online from an *authorised dealer* for £270!

I can eiher stick with Vibe, Edge or Fli audio from my local Halfords, or i can go online and buy a pair of Hybrid Audio, Hertz, Audison or DLS speakers. Try some Vibe, Edge or Fli gear, then come back and tell me that you don't feel sorry for me! 

My Local DLS dealer is over 200 miles away. Bar the fact that in the UK we're paying nearly 3 times for the price of petrol compared to the U.S. that adds up to a pretty expensive price for any DLS speakers.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Richv72 said:


> When i go into a stereo shop I feel like im boxed in, maybe because the employees usually outnumber the customers. I mean you get inside the place, its empty, everything is overpriced. At that point im looking for the door to get out. Ill stick to buying things online, because at least I wont have some desperate store owner breathing down my neck.


so this begs the question, why did you ever go into a stereo store? 

how long did it take you to ask for prices on EVERY single piece of gear to confirm that its all "overpriced"?

could it be that you walked in there already thinking everything is overpriced? which begs the first question.



would it better if there are tons of people milling about, and the stuff is super cheap? like umm...walmart? 

again, all i am saying we need to stop lump all the stereo shops together..and posts like this is really over generalizing it.

again, i liken it to the food industry...there is always someting to be said about private brick and motar shops versus chains or online...provided that the quality is up to par...and that is the key.

and look consumers are the only one to over generalize, i mean some shop owners tend to lump customers into a singular group: "read eveything online, know it all, but really dont know jack, cheap asses who dont care about quality"

that is no better than what we are talking about here...

again, reward the good, pick up the bad and tell people to avoid...telling everyone to avoid car audio shops in general is doing nobody any good.

b


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## Slammer (Nov 14, 2010)

Jrvtecaccord said:


> Regarding car audio shops, I don't think anyone mentioned that there are different types of shops. As with anything else, you have a range from low to high end shops. Don't expect to go into a low end shop and expect a high end install. If you want quality it's going to cost you, and I would gladly pay if I can't handle myself.


I have followed this thread for a few days and find it quite complex in nature. This "argument" could be made for any industry, literally. I posted earlier that I have a shop that I trust so much, that I consider the owner a friend. I have been to his house numerous times, he has given me advice and tips (free of charge, mind you) and I have his cell phone number and we text back and forth with random car audio thoughts and ideas. As for the "low end" shop comment, I am curious as to what defines a low end shop. The guy that I use is in a small building with a single bay for installs. His sales floor is approximately 800sf and he works with just himself and his installer. He is usually booked a week out and does a great business. While he is in a relatively small town outside of Raleigh, he does great work. He grew up in the car audio business and frequently is involved with the installs himself. His father owned the business and he used to help the installers after school when he was just a kid. He has done SPL builds that metered at 160db, and has done SQ installs in Ferraris. He is a small town (low end) shop, but this is certainly not how he handles his installs. I am not posting this reply to glorify my local car audio dealer, just pointing out that generalizations are ridiculous and so very often unfair and inaccurate. There are good shops and there are bad shops. Ask around, Google search, check for references..... With the internet what it is today, I am surprised that anyone goes anywhere without searching for online reviews before setting foot in the place of business.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

simplicityinsound said:


> so this begs the question, why did you ever go into a stereo store?
> 
> how long did it take you to ask for prices on EVERY single piece of gear to confirm that its all "overpriced"?
> 
> ...


You have a good point. I was wrong to generalize, but that has been my experience. Now I do remember in the late 80's as a teenager we had a stereo shop that was light years ahead of the time, the guy was building custom enclosures, isobaric, push pull, bandpass, and this was way before the internet came out. No one even knew what these were at the time, but they sounded awesome. That guy was truly skilled and not just someone who got a job at a stereo shop. That shop went out of business, and I havent seen any that did that kind of amazing work ever since.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

Orange AutoSound, Orange Tx circa ~95. Did not use brackets to install my half din Sony EQ, but instead stuffed crumpled up paper between the deck and EQ and wrapped it all in electrical tape to "secure" it.

Autographics, Bridge City circa ~97. MB Quart 160.03KX on RF 2.6x crossed over high pass at about 800 hz. "Hey man, listen to your highs! They sound great." Without saying a word, I adjusted changed the multiplier from 10x to 1x on the Fultron crossover to about 80 hz. That's better. (BTW, I loved Autographics back then, they guy didn't know what he was saying.)

Performance Car Audio, Nederland Tx. circa ~99. Salesman insisted the Sony XDP-210EQ changed the stereo input in to some kind of quadroponic surround sound. Said "It hit there, there, there and there." Pointing to the 4 "corners" of my car. I said, "It's not stereo? Hrmmm....."

Performance Car Audio, Beaumont Tx. circa ~2002. Attempted to use factory speaker wire instead of fresh runs on an install using Punch 400.4 to MB Quart. Used wood screws to install 5 1/4" speaker in to 5x7 hole without any type of baffle. 

Elite Ridez, Lumberton Tx. circa ~09. Install my 950 dollar KR2's with wood screws, put the door panel back on but did not move the factory speaker molex so it was trapped between the speaker and door. Wood screw fell out because it wasn't screwed in to wood and was bouncing around on the speaker cone. Fuse > 18" away from battery. Amps not individually fused.

I'm going to give Audio Edge in Nederland a shot to do my custom door work. I'm determined to set them up for success by setting the expectation early and putting it in writing with constant follow up.

Now there have been a couple of audio shops sprinkled in there that did work I didn't have to gripe about, but these are just the examples I remember. These weren't cheap either. Elite Ridez charges about 80 dollars an hour.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Richv72 said:


> You have a good point. I was wrong to generalize, but that has been my experience. Now I do remember in the late 80's as a teenager we had a stereo shop that was light years ahead of the time, the guy was building custom enclosures, isobaric, push pull, bandpass, and this was way before the internet came out. No one even knew what these were at the time, but they sounded awesome. That guy was truly skilled and not just someone who got a job at a stereo shop. That shop went out of business, and I havent seen any that did that kind of amazing work ever since.


I think amazing work is not neccessarily a criteria for a good shop. not every shop can or should specialize in amazing builds, sq, or show or anything like that...

but the key is, whatever level they choose to do their job at, they do it WELL...and back it up with good service...that is key.

a shop that takes care of its customers in everyway possible is one that deserves a steady stream of customers.

i dont care of the shop just does stock replacement and radio swaps all day, if they do it well and takes good care of things, then thats a quality shop in my book.


the rest, i could careless if they have a talented guy who is capable of turning out world class work, but if they dont take care of their customers and provide CONSISTENT high quality work, then they are only as good as their weakest install. 

the sad truth is, there are a lot of shops that fall into this category.

Over the years here in norcal, i generally recommend people to one of three shops, dependant on their locations and their budget and goals...


Ernie and Junior and the gang at Sound Innovations in hayward

Scott at Kustom Kar in Santa rosa 

Kenny at Auto Sound Specialists


but again, if you go into a shop with the attitude that their price (which by contract from the manufacturers CANNOT be advertised below a certain level) is ridiculous, then you aren't going to get the welcoming mat laid down for you...right?

b


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

another thing i always wanted to say is this...

for all those who say things like "I got quoted xxx at some shop, but then i did it myself for yyy less than that, this is so easy, i cant believe people would pay a shop to do this kind of work...i seem to know about car audio than the guy working at the shop..."

How about you try and work at a car audio shop for a day and actually see just how "simple" it is?

When i had a brick and motar shop many years ago, i once semi-hired someone who seem to know a lot about car audio, talked endlessly about imaging, staging, this mid that tweet, etc etc...and looking at his own car, a ford contour, it looked okay..good sq level stuff and a pretty clean install...he had a normal job but offered to help out on his spare time.

so once i was really busy and called him to have him help out with a car, i cant remember what it was, maybe a toyota 4runner or was it a blazer?

anyway, i just asked to install a clarion single DIN and run the power, rca and speaker wires back to the trunk...he said all good, and i went off working on another car...

2 hours later, he came and asked for my help...i said okay, so i went over there...and all he manted to do was to pull off two dash panels, and one wasnt even required to get the headunit out. he couldnt figure out where to go from there, and couldnt figure out how to get the power cable through the firewall since ther was no oem grommet he can punch through, so i said okay, find a good spot and go get a uni-bit....got a blank stare back at that...so i said okay, just go home, i will finish...last i saw of him...

this nearly mirrors my own story when i did a system or two in my own car and thought i was hot ****...until i tried to do another car that wasnt like my own....


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> another thing i always wanted to say is this...
> 
> for all those who say things like "I got quoted xxx at some shop, but then i did it myself for yyy less than that, this is so easy, i cant believe people would pay a shop to do this kind of work...i seem to know about car audio than the guy working at the shop..."
> 
> ...


Hey Bing that guy that gave you the 'blank-stare' was his name Minion???


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Bluenote said:


> Hey Bing that guy that gave you the 'blank-stare' was his name Minion???


Lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> so i said okay, just go home, i will finish...last i saw of him...


actually, I just saw you a couple days ago...:laugh:


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## Noobdelux (Oct 20, 2011)

so now what is a uni-bit? : P


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

Shop IRWIN UNIBIT 3/16" - 7/8" #4 Step Drill Bit at Lowes.com


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Richv72 said:


> You have a good point. I was wrong to generalize, but that has been my experience. Now I do remember in the late 80's as a teenager we had a stereo shop that was light years ahead of the time, the guy was building custom enclosures, isobaric, push pull, bandpass, and this was way before the internet came out. No one even knew what these were at the time, but they sounded awesome. That guy was truly skilled and not just someone who got a job at a stereo shop. That shop went out of business, and I havent seen any that did that kind of amazing work ever since.


Its a shame, but i'm not sure your average person cares about technical and creative talent. Most simply want louder and better ... whatever that means to them personally. Only a select few appreciates such things. How many times have I read that iso, horns, t-lines etc are obsolete, in place of a simple sealed or ported enclosure?

I have many people who want to spend next to nothing on their car audio. Well, that's not me! If that's what they want then they go down the road and buy useless cheap (and at times expensive) garbage. But then they get in my trashed Toyota wowed by how good my simple system sounds and wowed at how my t-line with an 8" can beats their pre-fab 12" into the ground. Obviously, such individuals aren't my market! But then they're perplexed when my system cost sometimes less, sometimes the same, sometimes _a little_ more, but sounds far better than theirs, and they want me to remedy it for next to nothing (£20-30). It ain't going to happen! Only last night someone sad they want a sub like mine, 

"I don't want to spend more than £50!" 

"Good luck with that!" I told him. I also told him I couldn't do anything for him ... because i can't. 

However The fact still remains; if I had acted like some of the CA guys do, in my recruiment job, I would have found myself out of job fairly quickly. I remember many a time travelling home on the train 7:30pm returning a phone call to a client *as i had promised to do*. I'm not perfect, but if someone says they'll get back to me, then I expect them to get back to me! But don't come moaning to me when you do go out of business (no reference to the example given by Richv72).


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

captainscarlett said:


> Its a shame, but i'm not sure your average person cares about technical and creative talent. Most simply want louder and better ... whatever that means to them personally. Only a select few appreciates such things. How many times have I read that iso, horns, t-lines etc are obsolete, in place of a simple sealed or ported enclosure?
> 
> I have many people who want to spend next to nothing on their car audio. Well, that's not me! If that's what they want then they go down the road and buy useless cheap (and at times expensive) garbage. But then they get in my trashed Toyota wowed by how good my simple system sounds and wowed at how my t-line with an 8" can beats their pre-fab 12" into the ground. Obviously, such individuals aren't my market! But then they're perplexed when my system cost sometimes less, sometimes the same, sometimes _a little_ more, but sounds far better than theirs, and they want me to remedy it for next to nothing (£20-30). It ain't going to happen! Only last night someone sad they want a sub like mine,
> 
> ...


i cant agree more...

if you think about it...why do these hack shops stay in business? Restaurants, if a place serve **** food, tainted with bacteria, they would get gone in no time, same goes for a few other fields...

but car audio seem to be immune to this...why? well, we have to remember that we here at DIYMA represents a small percentage of the customer base in general, most of the people just want cheap, cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap! and loud, distortion? sn ratio? nah, loud loud loud loud...

throw a big ole prefab box in the trunk, two big 12s screw an amp on the back, and wire it up and off you go.

if soething breaks from mechanical defect or bad install? well, thats cuase we did your system so bangin loud and insane that ****s bound to break bro...(an argument i acutally heard used and the customer totally agreed and used it as a source of pride), come back we will warranty it and then maybe sell on upgrading to some bigger and badder stuff etc etc.

thats what drives this industry, the types of clientel...hell i have seen people, whos has had their car hacked to crap, just having a really bad install done, stay completely loyal to the hack shop and recommend all their freinds there and post raving reviews of them, because he gets stuff for really cheap and the owners cuts him a good deal when he referrs others. and this shop, one of hte worse offenders i have ever seen, has like a 5 star review rating online.

smh....


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Welcome to America gentlemen where the correct marketing will have Eskimos buying ice. Let's face fact there are not a lot of educated consumers when it comes to car audio. They have been led to the belief that bigger is better, and a well known name precedes an unknown yet quality name. Also you gentlemen have to accept that the economy has a lot to do with how people purchase currently. Yes I know on here we are willing to spend a $1000.00 on the right components, yet most consumers want the entire system for $1000.00 because that is what they can afford. I respect all of you who know what your time is worth and can justify charging what you charge. But the average consumer has what he has money wise. If he is hungry and would like a steak but only has burger money, do you really think that he is going to go hungry until he can afford that steak? No reality is this if a person walks into your store and says what can I get for a thousand dollars had you say not much, then he proceeds to go down the street and they can do the whole system for that, which way do you think he is going to go.
Yes my business has nothing to do with car audio yet people pay my prices without blinking an eye, why because they know by doing business with me, they've already made money. In the instance of car audio sometimes we need to give a little more to educate so that people will buy better or at the very least the best that they can. When I sell my car audio I sell at a severe discount because I want people to see/hear better and keep supporting the industry. Because as we all know if they stop supporting, you stop having a job to support other things. Please make sure that you take what I have typed as my opinion and my opinion only. Gentlemen have a blessed day.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

and thats the key, too many shops focus on selling the products, what they should do is focus on selling THEMSELVES. if they can back it up with good work and good service, then thats where they get the business. if they focus on product, all they can do is usually discount discount discount, and that in turn, forces them to rush cars in and out and as a result, turn out bad work.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

Coppertone said:


> Welcome to America gentlemen where the correct marketing will have Eskimos buying ice. Let's face fact there are not a lot of educated consumers when it comes to car audio. They have been led to the belief that bigger is better, and a well known name precedes an unknown yet quality name. Also you gentlemen have to accept that the economy has a lot to do with how people purchase currently. Yes I know on here we are willing to spend a $1000.00 on the right components, yet most consumers want the entire system for $1000.00 because that is what they can afford. I respect all of you who know what your time is worth and can justify charging what you charge. But the average consumer has what he has money wise. If he is hungry and would like a steak but only has burger money, do you really think that he is going to go hungry until he can afford that steak? No reality is this if a person walks into your store and says what can I get for a thousand dollars had you say not much, then he proceeds to go down the street and they can do the whole system for that, which way do you think he is going to go.
> Yes my business has nothing to do with car audio yet people pay my prices without blinking an eye, why because they know by doing business with me, they've already made money. In the instance of car audio sometimes we need to give a little more to educate so that people will buy better or at the very least the best that they can. When I sell my car audio I sell at a severe discount because I want people to see/hear better and keep supporting the industry. Because as we all know if they stop supporting, you stop having a job to support other things. Please make sure that you take what I have typed as my opinion and my opinion only. Gentlemen have a blessed day.


I agree with this and that brings me to my next point. If one installer does terrible work but charges less, then the guy who does great installs sees this and charges more based on his percieved notion that his work is of much higher quality and demands a more substantial price for his time. When in reality if he charged less he would take all of the garbage installers customers and put him out of business. After pushing the competiton out, then the good installer could raise his prices and keep the large customer base. So in essence the lower priced garbage installs are pushing up the prices of good installs to an unrealistic price. Instead of the good installers lowering prices and being competitive, which would force the bad installers out of business.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Richv72 said:


> I agree with this and that brings me to my next point. If one installer does terrible work but charges less, then the guy who does great installs sees this and charges more based on his percieved notion that his work is of much higher quality and demands a more substantial price for his time. When in reality if he charged less he would take all of the garbage installers customers and put him out of business. After pushing the competiton out, then the good installer could raise his prices and keep the large customer base. So in essence the lower priced garbage installs are pushing up the prices of good installs to an unrealistic price. Instead of the good installers lowering prices and being competitive, which would force the bad installers out of business.


this would be more useful if installers and shops actually kept tabs on what each other are charging and use it as a guide. but in truth there is no standard in charging for work, even non custom ones.

do shops price compete against each other? sure...but to my experience, the good ones dont in general...price competing has a big disadvantage becuase often, they are relying on the customer to tell them what the other shop is charging, and i can tell you for sure that most customers flat out lie and say a lower price than what they got quoted.

so for a shop to keep going down to help, it sorta says something about them. 

a good shops should have a system of estimating a job based on experience, how much work is being done how much time, materials, etc, so its a good balance of offering as good of a deal as possible to the consumer but still remain profitable. this will change based on supply and demand, but it should be with in a range. a job they quoted 3k for may vary from 2500-3500 tops, but will never become a 1500 dollar job.

and good shops, if they do truly good work and keep their customers happy, shoudlnt need to beg for customers by slashing costs.

the minute you start down the long road of price matching, its a deep dark downward spiral from there.

can you be flexible with your quote if it means landing a customer? sure, but there is a definite limit.

this is true in a lot of industries...you will never see a 4 star michelin star rated american style place to try and match a bad burger joint or tgi fridays. 

just think about whatever field you work in...chances are there are always a cheaper alternative to your company, be it overseas products, or just cheaper crappier versions here...do you think your company should price match them to drive them out? well, you can, but the crappier ones can still go cheaper than you long before you become unprofitable due to expenses.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Shops suck man. They know a sucker when they see one. I just did an install for my friend yesterday. He went to some shop and spent close to $2500 on crap that doesn't seem to add up. He told me he paid $450 each for two Audio Pipe TXX-BF15s, which according to Google shopping only costs around $200 at the most.

I don't comment on shops installation quality because any ******* can get hired, but I can't stand crooks trying to scam you.


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Shops suck man. They know a sucker when they see one. I just did an install for my friend yesterday. He went to some shop and spent close to $2500 on crap that doesn't seem to add up. He told me he paid $450 each for two Audio Pipe TXX-BF15s, which according to Google shopping only costs around $200 at the most.
> 
> I don't comment on shops installation quality because any ******* can get hired, but I can't stand crooks trying to scam you.



So all shop suck because a few shops take advantage of people? This doesn't happen in other industries?


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah they all ****ing suck dude. Stop trying to justify it, we all know shops blow.


They raped my friend for generic gear.

They told another friend of mine they couldn't answer his simple question about fusing because "It's my job, I need to look at it and charge you".

They try so hard to sell you crap before they even know what kind of car you have...

Ya'll shop owners and associates can continue to try and save the reputation of shops and installers by saying "Oh, thats just like every other industry", but you know what?

When I go into a bank, I EXPECT to get screwed.
When I call up my internet/cable provider I EXPECT to get hassled.

But when I walk into a shop to buy meaningless crap that none of us really need, but for some reason we are passionate about, I DO NOT EXPECT some ass hole behind the counter who doesn't know jack **** to try and sell me one of everything in the god damned store.


Now, please help me understand why I shouldn't judge ALL shops because "only a few" try ever so hard to pull my pants down over prices.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Now, please help me understand why I shouldn't judge ALL shops because "only a few" try ever so hard to pull my pants down over prices.



I think this statement pretty much says it all and doesnt require any kind of just response.

it must be a sad sad world you live in if you pretty much disregard ALL of anything if you have been screwed over by a few of them...

Are you also the type of person who hates all black people if one time you got wronged by a black person?

or all women if a few girls dumped you?

or better yet, all DIYers in car audio if a few has done really ****ty work?


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## JPOSEY (Nov 9, 2011)

I've only paid for one install at a shop in the last 20 years. It was about 15 years ago and needed some fiberglass work done and I had no experience working with glass at the time. I was pleased with the result, but that was when there were still a lot of good installers working. 

It sucks nowadays, because I do as good a job as 80% of the guys out there. What really sucks is the decline in knowledge in the people running and selling the equipment.


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

To make sure I get this right.... 
I went to a steak house one time & had really bad service at that one. My conclusion is they all have bad service. I'm not a cook but I'd rather burn my steak than go to any steak house. 


WOW!!!


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> I think this statement pretty much says it all and doesnt require any kind of just response.
> 
> it must be a sad sad world you live in if you pretty much disregard ALL of anything if you have been screwed over by a few of them...
> 
> ...


You know as well as I do that that is a stupid comparison to make.


I'm not talking about installation, I'm talking about guys behind the counter trying to sell you everything under the sun once they get a whiff of your wallet. I myself have never been screwed over by any audio shop so I suppose I don't even have a reason to complain. I do my dealings privately and so far that seems to be the way to go. 


Don't give me that "sad, sad world you live in when ----" crap. Don't try to insult me through the internet.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

SaturnSL1 said:


> You know as well as I do that that is a stupid comparison to make.
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about installation, I'm talking about guys behind the counter trying to sell you everything under the sun once they get a whiff of your wallet. I myself have never been screwed over by any audio shop so I suppose I don't even have a reason to complain. I do my dealings privately and so far that seems to be the way to go.
> ...


Go read ur post again..and see if it lines up w what u just said. 

Feel free to call me i will tell u what i think on the phone of ur statement if u r uncomfortable over the net.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> Go read ur post again..and see if it lines up w what u just said.
> 
> Feel free to call me i will tell u what i think on the phone of ur statement if u r uncomfortable over the net.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


I couldn't give two ****s what you think of my statement.

In my opinion, shops wouldn't have such bad reputations if people would just learn to install their own gear. There's nothing better than completing a project for yourself and if you don't have the skills, learn 'em.

I've worked as an installer for two years and the folks who drop their cars off to us for installs are the same idiots coming back angry because they blew their gear. If you're the type of person that doesn't know anything about the gear you're buying, you're probably the type of person who can't listen to instructions about how to use your gear.

Sadly there are more idiots than people who are willing to learn a thing or two and appreciate the hard work it takes to get what they want.

I can understand why you're so offended though, I'm talking down your line of work. Don't be mad, it's not like this thread is going to screw up your paychecks.


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## charliekwin (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm a web developer/designer by trade. I used to freelance exclusively until dot-com burst some 10 years ago and have worked in full-time positions since then, dabbling on the side if any work happens to come my way. So I find this thread interesting because there's a lot of parallel in how folks in the web and car audio businesses work.

For every one good designer/developer out there, there are probably 10 lousy ones that barely know more than finding a template file and slapping it into Wordpress. They're on Craigslist, offering a website for $250, and these are the hack shops that the good guys need to compete against.

It's a struggle, and fortunately, I don't need to fight that fight to put food on my table anymore. 

That said, I won't defend the practices of many (most) of those in my industry. Unfortunately, if you're a potential client and don't do a bit of homework, you're more likely than not to end up overpaying, getting substandard work, or usually both. The good apples are scattered around in a bunch of rotten ones, not the other way around.

In my (limited) personal experience, dealing with car audio shops seems to be much the same way. Bing, I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but the impression I get from some of the posts in this thread, and likely the source of much of the confrontation, is that it sounds to me like you're defending the industry as a whole too much, in lieu of defending your own work.

On the flip side, if you're a client and happy with the work that you get -- even if it's substandard -- then in some respects that (unfortunately for the good guys) is really is all that matters. Ignorance, for some, is bliss and there's no convincing them otherwise (how many times have you heard "I don't care, just make it work" when trying to explain something?).

But if that doesn't describe you as a consumer, then caveat emptor dude, do your research. A substantial portion of the entirety of all human knowledge is literally at your fingertips these days, so you *should* be able to arm yourself with enough information to keep yourself from getting totally screwed. Just be aware that you may need to look for a little while before you find that proverbial needle in the haystack.

Just a few of my long-winded thoughts.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

SaturnSL1 said:


> In my opinion, shops wouldn't have such bad reputations if people would just learn to install their own gear. There's nothing better than completing a project for yourself and if you don't have the skills, learn 'em.


Below you say you are an installer. So correct me if I am wrong but if people learn to to all their own stuff wouldn't that mean you are out of a job



SaturnSL1 said:


> I've worked as an installer for two years and the folks who drop their cars off to us for installs are the same idiots coming back angry because they blew their gear. If you're the type of person that doesn't know anything about the gear you're buying, you're probably the type of person who can't listen to instructions about how to use your gear.


So you are saying you work at a hack shop and do not bother to explain one on one with your customers the details of their systems.

Could it be possibly something went wrong with their install because you suck as an installer and installed it wrong. Gains set incorrectly, x-over not set correctly ect.

Also appears you are saying all your customer's that spend money at the shop you work at are idiots.



SaturnSL1 said:


> I can understand why you're so offended though, I'm talking down your line of work. Don't be mad, it's not like this thread is going to screw up your paychecks.


Wouldn't you be talking down to the industry that you, yourself work in. 

If you hate it so much why not get out the industry and look for a different job.

Also if you work at a shop why did you friend not buy his equipment where you work? 

It appears that someone is stretching the truth a bit about something.

BTW-What is the shop name that you work at?


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

1. I don't work at a shop anymore.

2. The shop I worked at was in the middle of the ghetto and we could explain the do's and don't of their system until we were blue in the face and folks still blew their **** up. If I tell you not to turn the volume past a certain point, or not to fiddle with the gains on the amp and you do it anyways, I can't be held responsible. We would tune the amps and put a small mark on them to show where we set them and half the time folks would come back with their gains cranked to the max and their filters all wrong.

3. Yes, all the folks coming in for installs where usually morons. The regulars who came in for odds and ends where the most enjoyable customers to interact with. They knew what they needed/wanted and they knew what to expect from us.

4. I do not work in a shop anymore, because of the owners ignorance me and the head installer left before the shop closed. I do small time installs now in the privacy and comfort of my own garage, for close friends and people who I trust will listen to what I tell them. Most of the time with the owner of the car right by my side learning and helping.

Don't get it twisted, I don't "hate the industry", I hate people who don't care to learn anything and would rather spend a big amount of money on something they wont even learn to use right.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

charliekwin said:


> I'm a web developer/designer by trade. I used to freelance exclusively until dot-com burst some 10 years ago and have worked in full-time positions since then, dabbling on the side if any work happens to come my way. So I find this thread interesting because there's a lot of parallel in how folks in the web and car audio businesses work.


I've thought this same thing more than once. I do software development, of which most of it runs on the web, and I tend to stay far away from doing "websites" for people. I'll help friends put up a blog or other some packaged solution and even host it for them, but with a few exceptions I stay away from any real dev work unless it is something that interests me. 

In the 13 years I've been doing this, most devs are hacks and sometimes just plain idiots. Sloppy work, sloppy attention to detail, bad practices, etc. and give everyone else a bad reputation. Just like bad audio shops. 

It is largely for that reason that while I do my own stuff, I certainly have no issue with whatever rates a given individual or shop charges for their good work. Quality and attention to detail is far more valuable than people give credit for.


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## autokraftgt (Aug 28, 2012)

Why would you have to step into a car audio shop in the first place?
You're a member of a DIY audio forum!


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## bigscarymonster (Mar 29, 2012)

It seems like most of you really don't dislike the car audio industry specifically, you just really don't like the whole sales culture. A good salesman will make you want to give your money to him no matter what the product, and most people are not well educated on most products. Most people are also willing to believe what they are told and don't really care about what the actual quality of the product is.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

so,...how did that "never setting foot in that shop again" work out for you? Ya know...since you went in today and bought stuff...


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

superjay said:


> so,...how did that "never setting foot in that shop again" work out for you? Ya know...since you went in today and bought stuff...


I only went there because I don't have money in my paypal, can't find any wiring on CL, and because I wanted to get my amp wiring legit ASAP.

$40 for 4' of 1/0 and 2 copper 1/0 ring terminals.

Then I looked on ebay and it was about $11 shipped for 4' of 1/0.

They had 200 amp anl fuses for $16+. What a ripoff. They are 2 for $4 on ebay.

I guess they are good if you want something NOW and want to spend extra.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

What brand of wiring can you get for 2.50 a ft on ebay, because all 1/0 is not the same. The actual wire size varies quite abit from brand to brand. I would be leary of overly cheap wire. about 5-7 dollars a ft is usually the decent wire like stinger, kicker, fosgate even tsunami is ok. But wire like raptor is just garbage.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

what brand wire was 11 shipped for 4' of 1/0? The same stinger hpm that you bought? If so, please let me know where so I can send all the 1/0 cable hpm I stock back to stinger.. Let me guess its not the same, but wires, wire right?????


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

Richv72 said:


> What brand of wiring can you get for 2.50 a ft on ebay, because all 1/0 is not the same. The actual wire size varies quite abit from brand to brand. I would be leary of overly cheap wire. about 5-7 dollars a ft is usually the decent wire like stinger, kicker, fosgate even tsunami is ok. But wire like raptor is just garbage.


IMC AUDIO 1/0 Gauge 1' Ft Ground Wire Cable Black Power Car Audio Amp Awg | eBay

looks pretty hefty to me, if it's the same as the pic. the insulation doesn't look to thick


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

Audio Options said:


> what brand wire was 11 shipped for 4' of 1/0? The same stinger hpm that you bought? If so, please let me know where so I can send all the 1/0 cable hpm I stock back to stinger.. Let me guess its not the same, but wires, wire right?????


No idea. I didn't try the ebay stuff.

IMC AUDIO 1/0 Gauge 1' Ft Ground Wire Cable Black Power Car Audio Amp Awg | eBay

IMC AUDIO 1/0 Gauge 1' Ft Ground Wire Cable Red Power Car Audio Amp Awg | eBay

1 0 awg | eBay

I'm tempted to buy a foot from a few sellers and compare to the $7/ft from the shop.

Although the same wire was on sale for $5 on their website. Clearly they must be making a profit at that cheap, so I'm guessing it costs them $2-$3 per foot, if not less.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

your under the illusion there is that much mark up on the product....

heres hpm on egay.. Stinger HPM 0 Gauge 1/0 Matte Blue Power Wire SHW10B | eBay

4.59 a foot + 5.50 a foot shipping


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

oh yeah and its cca wire compared to the stinger wire


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

Audio Options said:


> your under the illusion there is that much mark up on the product....
> 
> heres hpm on egay.. Stinger HPM 0 Gauge 1/0 Matte Blue Power Wire SHW10B | eBay
> 
> 4.59 a foot + 5.50 a foot shipping


This is what they had at the shop

0 Gauge Premium Power Wire


picture hosting



Audio Options said:


> oh yeah and its cca wire compared to the stinger wire


Oh well then never mind. I just did some research.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

Thats ofc tinned stinger wire at the shop, 4.99 is not a bad price at all man, you may need to step foot inside there again and pick some up lol.


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

Richv72 said:


> Thats ofc tinned stinger wire at the shop, 4.99 is not a bad price at all man, you may need to step foot inside there again and pick some up lol.


Well that's only online. It's $7 at the shop.

I will probably get some online when I do the big 3

BUT that's assuming that they only have the copper plated garbage on ebay, and there is no good wire on ebay.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

sorry dude you obviously have no clue.... I know what he has I have been in his shop many times, HPM is the series of stinger wire and its high end.. cca is a type of wiring and its garbage. 

Stinger - soundquest makes, if im correct, 4-6 different models of 0 guage or 1/0 that range in price from 2.50 - 10 ft now why would they do that if all wire was the same???? I know its just so they can make more money.. 

do yourself a favor, take the time and read up on wiring, im sure there are huge debates about them on here, when your done with that you can read about rcas, speaker wire, fuses amps etc


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

OP, once you figure out more about what we do, what we sell, why we sell what we sell, and how long it took us to learn how to do what we do you'll appreciate why we charge what we charge. 

I train car dealers on how to work with and around aftermarket devices. Even ASE masters can't pass the Advanced MECP practice test their first time....they have no idea what he have to know to do what we do. 

just having a few sheets of paper that point you in the right direction to install something does not make you an installer. It makes you a parts changer. Troubleshoot any part of that install after you screw it up. Tell me how long it takes to find the engine noise. Tell me how long it takes to figure out why your lights flicker before they come on solid, or why only one side comes on. Tell me how long it takes to figure out why your fuse keeps blowing. Now tell me why those things are happening...what's the cause? Learn to appreciate what we do.


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## dubweiser1 (Aug 30, 2012)

Local shops around her suck


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

superjay said:


> OP, once you figure out more about what we do, what we sell, why we sell what we sell, and how long it took us to learn how to do what we do you'll appreciate why we charge what we charge.
> 
> I train car dealers on how to work with and around aftermarket devices. Even ASE masters can't pass the Advanced MECP practice test their first time....they have no idea what he have to know to do what we do.
> 
> just having a few sheets of paper that point you in the right direction to install something does not make you an installer. It makes you a parts changer. Troubleshoot any part of that install after you screw it up. Tell me how long it takes to find the engine noise. Tell me how long it takes to figure out why your lights flicker before they come on solid, or why only one side comes on. Tell me how long it takes to figure out why your fuse keeps blowing. Now tell me why those things are happening...what's the cause? Learn to appreciate what we do.


But like anything else once you see it, then you know what it is. I mean what you said could apply to any job, even a burger king worker im sure had to learn a few tricks. So dont act like its rocket surgery.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

dubweiser1 said:


> Local shops around her suck


Does she also suck? 

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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

superjay said:


> OP, once you figure out more about what we do, what we sell, why we sell what we sell, and how long it took us to learn how to do what we do you'll appreciate why we charge what we charge.


The thing is, not all shops are the same.

There is no way to tell if a shop is good or not unless you try them, and even then, $16 for a 200 amp anl fuse VS $2 is ridiculous.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

2010hhrlt said:


> The thing is, not all shops are the same.
> 
> There is no way to tell if a shop is good or not unless you try them, and even then, $16 for a 200 amp anl fuse VS $2 is ridiculous.


Ummm...asking on here in the referal subforum will help u a lot...u r on diyma...use it!

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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

Richv72 said:


> But like anything else once you see it, then you know what it is. I mean what you said could apply to any job, even a burger king worker im sure had to learn a few tricks. So dont act like its rocket surgery.


This.

Unless it's some sort of custom 10 speaker fiberglasses enclosure or something, how would any car audio gear be hard to work around/with?

It's not difficult work. It's the workmanship and motivation behind it that matters.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

2010hhrlt said:


> The thing is, not all shops are the same.
> 
> There is no way to tell if a shop is good or not unless you try them, and even then, $16 for a 200 amp anl fuse VS $2 is ridiculous.


ask for referrals, ask for a portfolio, ask for certifications, ask some technical questions....but, most importantly, ask for referrals. Past customers who can tell you about their entire experience, and how their install turned out...

now, how about you go ahead and change that Yelp review.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

its not the same.... just cause two tires are the same size are they identical (two different brands) is the quality the same????

let me ask you, why did you go back to Brentwood if hes a rip off? You could have gone to 
Platinum
pantells
best guys 
concord sound
gm electronics 
and a few I cant even think of


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Richv72 said:


> But like anything else once you see it, then you know what it is. I mean what you said could apply to any job, even a burger king worker im sure had to learn a few tricks. So dont act like its rocket surgery.


ok, come watch me do my job ONCE and tell me you can do it just as well. Can you learn everything I learned in college by watching one design or install? Can you learn how to figure port length by watching me build an enclosure? Can you learn how to figure Efficiency bandwidth Product by watching me decide whether to put a sub in a sealed or ported enclosure? 

your argument is invalid.


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## 2010hhrlt (Aug 14, 2012)

superjay said:


> now, how about you go ahead and change that Yelp review.


Ok I deleted it.

I guess I jumped the gun. It's just frustrating having similar experiences from people who are in business for this stuff.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

2010hhrlt said:


> Ok I deleted it.
> 
> I guess I jumped the gun. It's just frustrating having similar experiences from people who are in business for this stuff.


my level of respect for you jumped from negative to a decent place.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

superjay said:


> ok, come watch me do my job ONCE and tell me you can do it just as well. Can you learn everything I learned in college by watching one design or install? Can you learn how to figure port length by watching me build an enclosure? Can you learn how to figure Efficiency bandwidth Product by watching me decide whether to put a sub in a sealed or ported enclosure?
> 
> your argument is invalid.


Yes, Yes, Yes, and No


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

To the op...again.if u need help im more than happy to point u in the right direction...wont sell u anything..in fact i have nothing to sell u even if u wanted to buy hehe 

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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Richv72 said:


> Yes, Yes, Yes, and No


Wha? Hmmm...wow! And agreed 

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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Trust me if i can instantly do something just as well watching a master at work...id be the chuck norris of car audio by now lol

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## celebration (Nov 10, 2010)

I kind of know how OP feels.

Long story short, I went to a local car audio shop to have an Alpine M1000 installed that was replacing a Kenwood 8104D for a 12" IDMAX a few years ago. This shop is 'said' to be the best in the area, and, if I remember correctly, their main installer, as well as the shop, has been in the runnings (I forgot specifically what they're called - you know- where you vote for Best Installer / Best Shop in the country) numerous times. In fact, I'm sure a lot of people here have heard/know them even here. They also talked me into going ported, saying they could build me a ported box that sounded as good as my sealed but louder. 

After everything was all said and done, it was nowhere near as loud as my sealed was, even with the new amp. I knew something was wrong, and went back a couple of times, and I came to find out they installed the amp at 8-ohms, instead of 2-ohms (the IDMAX was a D4V3). I couldn't believe it. What was the point in upgrading to the Alpine M1000 if it was running at 8-ohms. I felt cheated by the fact that they withheld this information from me. I had them hook it up at 2-ohms, and sure enough, it was significantly louder. Drove around for a while and the amp kept turning off. Went back a couple more times and pretty much figured out that they initially did hook it up at 2-ohms, and it was turning off for them, so rather than tell me, they just hooked it up at 8-ohms, didn't tell me crap, and sent me on my way. 

I guess it wasn't worth their time to try and isolate the problem. The owner wanted to get rid of me as fast as he could and was borderline rude. It literally blows my mind straight out of my skull when I hear how amazing they are by the car audio community. Makes me think they are just putting on a front and finally slipped thinking I didn't know anything.

I've since found a customer installer through word of mouth and I've taken my business, as have my friends, to him. This guy treats me the exact opposite as the other shop owner. He installed some milles in my car and we sat for hours listening to music afterwards. His wife is coming into the garage telling him dinner is ready, and we can't stop talking.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

What city was that shop in celebration?


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## celebration (Nov 10, 2010)

Richv72 said:


> What city was that shop in celebration?


Hey Richv72, I don't really want to get into specifics  It was 3 or so years ago and don't really care anymore, despite if I sounded grudging in my last post. They are obviously doing something right, I've seen their work, they win comps, and they have a huge customer following. I went there based off all that and had a couple bad experience due to perceptions of unwelcoming and lack of communication. 

I didn't read this whole thread, just wanted to say to OP- don't let a couple of bad experiences dissuade you from searching for the right shop. I know this is a DIY forum, and there's nothing like the satisfaction of doing something yourself. However, none of my friends are into car audio like I am, so I was thrilled when I finally found my installer, not only to have professional work done, but to have someone to talk car audio with as well, apart from a forum


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

2010hhrlt said:


> The thing is, not all shops are the same.
> 
> There is no way to tell if a shop is good or not unless you try them, and even then, $16 for a 200 amp anl fuse VS $2 is ridiculous.


If the shop is carrying Stinger then even online you are looking at about $7-$10.00 with shipping for a name brand one. MSRP IIRC is $12-$13.


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> 1. to the OP, when you say "mount for your car" that comes with speakers...what exactly do you mean?
> 
> 2. $300 for a pair of fully finished A pillars is IMO quite he bargain...i charge around 400 or more dpending on spekaer, as it takes me total working time of 6-7 hours at least from start to finish.
> 
> ...



As one of the "good guys" bing is referencing I had to chime in here. 

No matter where you are in the world you will be able to find "trunk slammers" who do nothing more then bend you over. However if you take the time to research your purchase; becuase lets be honest here you are purchasing a service and you should spend as much time researching the service as the equipment you want installed. I have met shady OEM Delaerships, does that mean every dealership is the same way? Nope ... there are good guys out there. 

Alot of people don't realize what all is involved when doing 12v for a living, we wear many hats if you will. Electrician, mechanic, upholstery, fabricator etc. 

It sucks you are going through this and I hope you find your "go to shop" for future use

As for the "Mount for the speakers" : Are you referring to something like this?
http://www.bestkits.com/product.php?p=867


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## Iancredible (Sep 29, 2009)

NRA4ever said:


> I find most shops use half trained kids to install.
> 
> As my career path changes I gotta disagree here
> 
> ...


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

Ok. Since it's so easy... I'll be the customer.
I have a 2006 Lexus SC430 & I would like the OP to install a new double din with steering controls. It has factory Nav & I still want that to work. Taking the new source out of the equation. How much for parts & labor for you to install it for me? (This is just one car, I can keep going!)


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

2010hhrlt said:


> I only went there because I don't have money in my paypal, can't find any wiring on CL, and because I wanted to get my amp wiring legit ASAP.
> 
> $40 for 4' of 1/0 and 2 copper 1/0 ring terminals.
> 
> ...


You should probably stay as far away from the convenience stores as you can then. They overcharge for stuff you want now too. At the same time, stay away from the Hospital and your doctor's office. They charge unbelievable prices for their instruments, and their time. 

When you go into a shop, you are not only buying product you need NOW, but you are also buying the service they provide. If you buy on the internet, you may pick something up that isn't made for your car, whereas the B&M store can look at your car and find the exact thing you are looking for.

I managed a car audio store in the mid '90's and we did very well not only in sales but also in customer service.

I hate that you think buying online is a good way to do things, but, in essence, you are hurting the very industry you are trying to support.

I don't build my own cars. There is a reason for this. Time and health. It isn't that I can't do what is needed to be done, but, the time for me to figure out how to do it, the lack of experience with my car, and my health concerning my back, seriously keeps me from doing these projects on my own. Therefore I research the best shop to do my install. I am willing to ship my car if it means that I will get excellent customer service and the fit and finish in my car is first rate.

True there are some stores out there that hire the average kid to sell for them, and if that kid loves big bass, he is going to push big bass. He may not have the slightest idea what a tweeter mount is, because it isn't 12" of gut wrenching bass.

but to lump a bad experience with a shop to say that all shops are bad, well then why stop there. If a barber cuts your hair too short, boycott all barbershops. They all suck!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Who builds your cars SQ Audi?


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

My Mustang was built by a shop that is roughly 350miles south of my home. Mobile Toys Inc in College Station, Texas (owner and installer Christ Pate) built my car. They do excellent work and Chris is very adept at building SQ-oriented cars. Before, my Mark 8 was done by Audio Midwest, who had an excellent reputation, and one of their installers worked with me at my shop. They did a very good job.

My audi, currently no system, so stock is it..but I am working on something with a few friends who are customer installers yet in the DIY community.


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

2010hhrlt said:


> IMC AUDIO 1/0 Gauge 1' Ft Ground Wire Cable Black Power Car Audio Amp Awg | eBay
> 
> looks pretty hefty to me, if it's the same as the pic. the insulation doesn't look to thick


as stated, that was aluminum wire, not as good as real copper. As someone who has physically worked with nice wire, and cheap wire, i can tell just by looking at it, that wire would a a pain in the ass to work with. not flexible at all, and with a thick wire, that's a problem. Stinger HPM is great wire, and $5-$7 per foot is the right price for it. before I worked with the company i do, I stopped at another local shop(now out of business) and they were charging $9/ft for inferior wire. the better company is selling a better product at a better price AND VALUE


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

Here's something else to think about when doing research on a shop. Just because they have or have had a good reputation for good work doesn't mean they still do. For example, Joe, would you take your car to Audio Midwest today to have work done? On the other side of that, would you take your car to Malibu's? Who, for the most part have not had the greatest reputation for great audio work in the past. I already know the answer, so I'll just say no for you. Would you bring it there if you knew that Powell and I are running the shop? I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not the shop per say who's reputation you should be worried about, but the actual staff of current employees working there.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

jowens500 said:


> Here's something else to think about when doing research on a shop. Just because they have or have had a good reputation for good work doesn't mean they still do. For example, Joe, would you take your car to Audio Midwest today to have work done? On the other side of that, would you take your car to Malibu's? Who, for the most part have not had the greatest reputation for great audio work in the past. I already know the answer, so I'll just say no for you. Would you bring it there if you knew that Powell and I are running the shop? I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not the shop per say who's reputation you should be worried about, but the actual staff of current employees working there.


You are correct brother. I would not take it to Audio Midwest, but if you and Powell are at Malibu's, I would be very interested. It isn't so much the reputation, but the service and the craftsmanship that is a big deal for me.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

bigscarymonster said:


> It seems like most of you really don't dislike the car audio industry specifically, you just really don't like the whole sales culture. A good salesman will make you want to give your money to him no matter what the product, and most people are not well educated on most products. Most people are also willing to believe what they are told and don't really care about what the actual quality of the product is.


the only things i want from a sales person is:

*1)* The truth

*2)* Not to be ripped off. Don't give me quote of £100+ to recable my car, when a simple move from 8 guage, to 4 gauge cable upgrade is all that's needed. 

*3)* *Not to be sold to!* just give the product here's my cash, i'll see you later because i think you deserve my repeat business. After many years in recruient, I don't like being sold to, by anyone! Don't point out the 'benefits', or use the 'that allows you to do' line, just give me what i've aksed for. I don't want to know the history of your shop, or how many years you've been trading or what shiny cups you've won, all i care about is my car/install/upgrade/my experience with you!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

captainscarlett said:


> the only things i want from a sales person is:
> 
> *1)* The truth
> 
> ...


The main issue is 99 percent of the potential customers a salesman sees is not educated and versed like those found on diyma...so they tend to treat everyone the same...

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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Exactly. As a salesman it's my job to make sure you get the right product. Just because someone WANTS a certain product doesn't mean it's the best product for you. When I was in sales I would talk to my customers. Actually CONVERSE with them. What they want might be the best option but those times were very few and far between.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> The main issue is 99 percent of the potential customers a salesman sees is not educated and versed like those found on diyma...so they tend to treat everyone the same...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2





quality_sound said:


> Exactly. As a salesman it's my job to make sure you get the right product. Just because someone WANTS a certain product doesn't mean it's the best product for you. When I was in sales I would talk to my customers. Actually CONVERSE with them. What they want might be the best option but those times were very few and far between.


this right there. in this field ppl flock to the internet to get their information. but who knows where that information is coming from? i mean wikipedia? some crazy nut in some forum? i mean look how many times just this forum alone has steered someone in the right direction after they've recieved the wrong information from someplace else on the internet. how many threads have we seen where someone just took a sub and put it in any old box and blames the sub for it instead of getting a properly built box. or someone trying to install an amp in a car with a premium system that doesn't send out a flat signal and just using a regular loc instead of the correct piece and blames the salesman later after they are the one who said "just give me what i asked for, stop trying to upsell me"

it's a salesman's job to make sure the customer is getting what they actually need, not just what they think they need or want.


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## bamelanc (Sep 13, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> The main issue is 99 percent of the potential customers a salesman sees is not educated and versed like those found on diyma...so they tend to treat everyone the same...


Troof.


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## Hoye0017 (Mar 23, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> i am still waiting on an explanation regarding the OP's thing about vehicle specific mounts that come with speakers...still mightily confused about that and why its a reason not to go to Brentwood car audio.


Sorry if this has been addressed as I didn't read through the whole thread but I believe what he's referring to are the tweeter mounting rings and hardware that comes with a lot of the mass-produced car components nowadays.

Bing, from what I can tell, you don't deal with alpine, kenwood, or pioneer components much. but they are starting to include various mounts made to allow the tweeters to fit a lot of factory tweeter locations perfectly with out any need to modify, make, or glue anything.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

^^Yes it obvious you did not read the thread. Thanks for playing though and sharing your knowledge.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Hoye0017 said:


> Sorry if this has been addressed as I didn't read through the whole thread but I believe what he's referring to are the tweeter mounting rings and hardware that comes with a lot of the mass-produced car components nowadays.
> 
> Bing, from what I can tell, you don't deal with alpine, kenwood, or pioneer components much. but they are starting to include various mounts made to allow the tweeters to fit a lot of factory tweeter locations perfectly with out any need to modify, make, or glue anything.


True...but adding a pair of brackets to a standard mounting cup does not make it a "vehicle specific" mount...and hell if i made a set of comps and threw in a jb weld kit itd prolly fit well with many many cars stock locations  

All kidding aside...can u give some specific examples of which kit fits what car perfectly? That way i can go to othet more highend manufacturers and see if they can duplicate the mounting to make is installers jobs easier...well not my job since i hardly use stock locations.



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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> The main issue is 99 percent of the potential customers a salesman sees is not educated and versed like those found on diyma...so they tend to treat everyone the same...


Compared to many/most here, I know very little but i do know when someone is blatently trying to rip me off. Its not about knowing what good advice is, but I beleive i know when people are talking garbage, and £100+ in place of a single piece of 4 gauge cable, is a blatent attempt to rip me off. 

The guy who sold me the 4 gauge cable actually listened to me. I did admit that i pushed my sub hard conituosly, to which he responded;

"Most poeple say they never turn it up or push the sub." 

If you've got it, flaunt it!


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

I think they set prices based on what they think they can squeeze out of you. When I was a service tech for a bay area automated door company, they would change prices depending on where the install was, nice building or big company they would charge more. As a technician I had no choice but to repeat the prices my boss forced me to charge. It used to sicken me at the thought of ripping people off, it actually made me hate my job. This is a common practice of small companys, if there isnt a set price they will rake you over the coals, then high five the owners because they squeezed more out of the customer.


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## BassnTruck (May 27, 2010)

Richv72 said:


> I think they set prices based on what they think they can squeeze out of you. When I was a service tech for a bay area automated door company, they would change prices depending on where the install was, nice building or big company they would charge more. As a technician I had no choice but to repeat the prices my boss forced me to charge. It used to sicken me at the thought of ripping people off, it actually made me hate my job. This is a common practice of small companys, if there isnt a set price they will rake you over the coals, then high five the owners because they squeezed more out of the customer.


While I understand your point and moral dilemma.

On the flip side, the fact remains no one forced them to buy from your company. The customer decided on their own to pick your high bid and felt it was a good value in their eyes. So no one really got ripped off or squeezed.

Sometimes the highest bid really does win when there is perceived quality or quickness to the job at hand.

Then there is the age old: A fool and his money, will soon be parted.

A lot of the home and commercial audio places do what you describe in this area.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

BassnTruck said:


> While I understand your point and moral dilemma.
> 
> On the flip side, the fact remains no one forced them to buy from your company. The customer decided on their own to pick your high bid and felt it was a good value in their eyes. So no one really got ripped off or squeezed.
> 
> ...


My circumstance (for those who live in t UK) I went to Halfords for help (don't laugh). One of the young, so called audio fitters said to go to shop A which i did. Shop A said this that and the other, charged me £45 for a 1 hour 'Investigation' got my stereo up and running in 2 mins. So my first question is; what were they doing for the next 58 mins of the time i was paying for?

Then they came back to me with the £100+ recabling solution which i thought was bizarre as they'd just charged me £45 for 2 mins work, and i mean 2 mins. So i went to shop B who said £XX for a few metres of 4 gauge cable. So did shop A really solve the problem, or did they they'd simply patch the problem, knowing that in a few hours, days weeks down the line, the problem would occur again. 

Now in defence of shop A, my business friend asked,

"Did shop A explain what they were going to do, and how much they would charge for the hours 'investigation'?" 

to which I answered 

"Yes."

to which he then explained that they'd done nothing wrong.

Now you can carry on with that mentality for so long, but when someone asks me which shop to go to, do I send the to shop A who charges £45 for 2 mins work, then suggests I spend another £100+ with them unnecessarily, or do i send them to shop B. 

Upfront and honest they might have been but, doing nothing for 58 mins and charging me £45 for the pleasure doesn't get you anywhere in my book. Again, *I don't care what people think of me, but you will respect my hard eared money! *

If they'd said, 

_“look it was a simple fix, here's a credit note for £10-20.”_ or _“We'll only charge you 'X' amount”_ then I would be singing their praises. If you're going to charge me £45 for 2 mins work, don't expect me to recommend you, don't expect my repeat business, and don't whine when your business is struggling. 


Don't get me wrong, in my days in recruiment i did things and said things i'm not proud of in order to head hunt people, but i'm not proud of it, its not clever ... and like most jobs inrecruitment, it never lasted. Out of the recruiment 5 companies i worked for 3 of them went out of business. I refuse to act like that in my car audio venture (not quite a business yet).


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

simplicityinsound said:


> another thing i always wanted to say is this...
> 
> for all those who say things like "I got quoted xxx at some shop, but then i did it myself for yyy less than that, this is so easy, i cant believe people would pay a shop to do this kind of work...i seem to know about car audio than the guy working at the shop..."
> 
> ...


That right there means a lot to me that most people who are complaining about being "overcharged" for "easy" install work simply do not understand.

I have been a DIY mobile audio hobbyist for two decades now, and I honestly thought I generally knew what I was doing. I was MECP certified before I ever set foot in a garage as an installer - and that means almost nothing in the real world. I would always buy from local shops, but I always did my own work because it was interesting to me and I could spend as much time on it as necessary even if it took many weeks to accomplish something. I learned by trial and error, reading magazines in the early nineties and going to events...

The first week I worked in an actual install bay at the same brick & mortar that I have been doing business with for years was a *very* humbling experience.

Observation #1: I may know the basics very well, and I take my time to make sure I do the best job I can, but I know jack **** about cars that I have never worked on before (which at the time was about 99.8% of them). 

Observation #2: The* vast* majority of clients don't give a crap about high fidelity sound reproduction in a car. They want it loud, they want it right now and they want it cheap. (I realize that this does not apply to the crowd on this forum - thank goodness)

Observation #3: Mobile electronics installers who work on incentive make less than half of whatever the shop charges for "labor". In order to make enough money to be worthwhile, you need to learn how to work as quickly as possible while still being thorough. Which leads to the next universal point.

Observation #4: Time is money. Duh.

Observation #5: This is the critical one. All cars are not created equal. At all. There are literally thousands of "little" model-specific
details that an installer needs to know about hundreds of cars that can only be discovered by actually pulling it apart with your own hands. Hard enough if the car is stock, never mind the nightmare of going behind somebody else's work to troubleshoot or repair malfunctioning aftermarket equipment.

Observation #6: Modern vehicle electronics (defined as roughly 2005-up) are vastly more sophisticated than they were when I was just a young whipper-snapper. In those days, the same basic connections for radios & alarms were virtually universal, once you got the dash apart. These days, it isn't nearly so straightforward, and like anything else, that knowledge has value.



I could go on, but the fact is that I can appreciate both perspectives of this debate because I have spent a lot of time on both sides of it. To those folks who think that they can do a better job and care enough about it to find their way to forums like this - I encourage you to learn as much about your own car and the products you would like to integrate into it as you can. After all, "If you want something done right, (as you see it) then you gotta DIY."

On the other hand, there are individuals and whole shops out there that know what they are doing and care enough to do a good job up front as well as back up their work. For those folks who:
A) don't have the time or tools necessary and 
B) appreciate that and are willing to pay fair value for it
it is worthwhile to do your research before you commit your money to any given place. Also, you have to be very clear and specific with your requirements, and be prepared to hold them to it. If you don't, the shop is simply going to assume that you are in the 99th percentile of people who only want it louder & cheaper. I can't speak for anyplace outside of my local area, but I do see a lot of evidence that the market for high fidelity audio is to be so small as to virtually irrelevant. 

This is a generalization to be sure, but it isn't necessarily that the shop you took your car to is trying to rip you off intentionally - they probably are just so accustomed to catering to the larger market that it doesn't occur to them that you are any different unless you make it a point to establish that you are a more discerning customer. 

Oddly, this applies almost exclusively to audio. The majority of our client base which is shopping for convenience related products and features (Remote Start, Bluetooth, Nav, Video, etc...) regularly makes it a point to ask many questions and make it very clear what their expectations are, and are perfectly willing to pay for it. The very few audio customers who do have higher standards seem to simply expect us to build them a show quality system with custom work for the same price as swapping out some door speakers. That is neither realistic nor fair, so don't be surprised if you get an attitude from the installer or the management over it.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

For Captain Scarlett, here is something that might shed some light on the issue. I understand that 45 pounds is a bit of money, but if that is what they charge for diagnostics, and you agreed to it, then why are you mad? Whether it took 30 seconds or 59 minutes, the diagnostic price is set. Once you penned that you accept the charge, no wrong doing happened.

I fix computers on the side, nothing hardware, mainly networking and iPad connectivity. 
I charge $100/hr, 30 min minimum. Why so high? I have 14 years of IT background and my time is not cheap. Those that scoff at my prices can call geek squad, no skin off my back. But those that do pay my price, are left knowing that they got the very best for their money. They are happy and I have a bit more money in my pocket.

Point is, they knew ahead of time what my price is. When they agreed, at that moment I was $50 richer. If it takes less than an hour to do, I only charge for the half hour. One hour is $100, not 45 min.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

To add to SQ Audi's comment, sometimes it takes more then the quoted time. In many cases the shop will eat that extra time insted of charging you. I know this was the policy at both repair shops that I worked at. It may vary from place to place though, but would you have been willing to shell out more if it took them say 1.5 hours even though they quoted only 1 hour?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

a lot of good points guys...in the end, i think the key is again: instead of complaining about hacks and debate whether all shops are hacks and crooks, LETS TAKE THE TIME AND EFFORT TO CREATE A DATABASE THAT SEPARATES THE GOOD FROM THE BAD!! will there be exceptions? sure, but it sure as hell beats looking online for google or yelp reviews, where it seems anyone and every can have a good review. 

b


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## Jrvtecaccord (Jul 3, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> a lot of good points guys...in the end, i think the key is again: instead of complaining about hacks and debate whether all shops are hacks and crooks, LETS TAKE THE TIME AND EFFORT TO CREATE A DATABASE THAT SEPARATES THE GOOD FROM THE BAD!! will there be exceptions? sure, but it sure as hell beats looking online for google or yelp reviews, where it seems anyone and every can have a good review.
> 
> b


I wonder if there is a section in Angie's List for car audio. From my understanding this website is dedicated for business/services reviews. As other users have mentioned, the database is only as good if it's UP TO DATE, installers can move from shop to shop.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> For Captain Scarlett, here is something that might shed some light on the issue. I understand that 45 pounds is a bit of money, but if that is what they charge for diagnostics, and you agreed to it, then why are you mad? Whether it took 30 seconds or 59 minutes, the diagnostic price is set. Once you penned that you accept the charge, no wrong doing happened.
> 
> I fix computers on the side, nothing hardware, mainly networking and iPad connectivity.
> I charge $100/hr, 30 min minimum. Why so high? I have 14 years of IT background and my time is not cheap. Those that scoff at my prices can call geek squad, no skin off my back. But those that do pay my price, are left knowing that they got the very best for their money. They are happy and I have a bit more money in my pocket.
> ...


15 mins, sure. 30 mins, fine. but 2 mins then to be squeezed unnecessarily for a job that didn’t need to be done ... i don't think so! 




07azhhr said:


> To add to SQ Audi's comment, sometimes it takes more then the quoted time. In many cases the shop will eat that extra time insted of charging you. I know this was the policy at both repair shops that I worked at. It may vary from place to place though, but would you have been willing to shell out more if it took them say 1.5 hours even though they quoted only 1 hour?


If they would have needed more time then i'd agree with you. But £45 of 2 mins, and i mean 2 mins, that's taking the mick! 

As I found with shop B, and in addition places like DIYMA, there are plenty of people who are willing to help, who can provide simple, inexpensive solutions or give free advice, and who don't charge £45 for doing next nothing, so now I just go to them. 

The shop A incident was before i found DIYMA. 


Its not so much about shop A, its about me being wise with my money, and shop A wasn't the best use of my money:shifty:


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

captainscarlett said:


> 15 mins, sure. 30 mins, fine. but 2 mins then to be squeezed unnecessarily for a job that didn’t need to be done ... i don't think so!


I am confused. If the job did NOT NEED to be done then why were you even there? Let alone agreeing to the quote? 




If they would have needed more time then i'd agree with you. But £45 of 2 mins, and i mean 2 mins is taking the mick! 

As I found with shop B, and in addtion places like this forum, there are plenty of people who are willing to help, who can provide simple, inexpensive solutions or give free advice, and who don't charge £45 for doing next nothing, so now I just go to them. This was all before i found DIYMA. 


Its not so much about shop A, its about me being wise with my money and shop A wasn't a wise choice.:shifty:[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you could contact some other shops that do not know you from me and ask them what they would charge for a standard diagnostic fee. Then ask what would happen if they only took a few minutes to complete the diag and fix the issue. Just a thought since it is not apples to apples when you go to shop B for different services/situation then you went to shop A for.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

07azhhr said:


> I am confused. If the job did NOT NEED to be done then why were you even there? Let alone agreeing to the quote?


 
1) I didn't agree with the quote of £100+ for the re-cabling job, that's the point, and at that point I'd had enough and went to Shop B. 

2) The problem needed an upgrade in power cable not an expensive cable overhaul! Shop B sold me and I've never had a problem since. So Shop A's solution of re-cabling the car was not only 'not necessary' but long term, it wouldn't have highlighted the main issue, which was solved by an upgrade of the power cable. 



I know we all like to make money, and i know we have our ways of doing things, but my concern is still very simple. Shop A fixed the problem which would have occured again because the issue wasn't identified and dealt with. At best, it was a patch up. 

Again if they'd bother to listen to me (as Shop B did), they would hve enjoyed my trust and repeat business as Shop B does/did. Instead they choose to: 

1) Take £45 off me for 2 mins work. 

I don't care who you are, or whether someone is fixing your car, sweeping your yard or fixing your broken PC, if someone takes an hours money for 2 mins work, don't expect me to throw more money at you!

2) Suggest something that was totally unnecessary to fix the problem at hand. 



07azhhr said:


> Perhaps you could contact some other shops that do not know you from me and ask them what they would charge for a standard diagnostic fee. Then ask what would happen if they only took a few minutes to complete the diag and fix the issue. Just a thought since it is not apples to apples when you go to shop B for different services/situation then you went to shop A for.


Shop B has been most helpful and they have given free advice and help. At times I have even offered to pay, and they've said; don't worry about it. That's why Shop B enjoys my repeat business. 

You live and learn. Had i'd been a bit more savvy and knowledgeable as i am now. Back then I was inexperienced and desperate to get my system up and running again.


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## perferd (Sep 5, 2012)

I am more then likely going to use a local shop for install...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

captainscarlett said:


> 1) I didn't agree with the quote of £100+ for the re-cabling job, that's the point, and at that point I'd had enough and went to Shop B.
> 
> 2) The problem needed an upgrade in power cable not an expensive cable overhaul! Shop B sold me and I've never had a problem since. So Shop A's solution of re-cabling the car was not only 'not necessary' but long term, it wouldn't have highlighted the main issue, which was solved by an upgrade of the power cable.
> 
> ...



If it was so easy and only a "2 minute job", why didn't you do it yourself?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't know about the UK, but doctors and lawyers here in the US would charge you "regular" price for a few minutes worth or work.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

This is an interesting discussion, and sometimes it's worth using extreme examples to shed light on things.

Let's say you had a loose remote wire and your stereo wasn't turning on. Let's say you know NOTHING about car audio, so all you know is that your stereo is broken. You bring your car to a shop, and they say, "Your system isn't working, this is going to take us 3 days to fix", and you agree to it. The shop discovers that it's only a remote wire and they fix it in 5 minutes. They charge you 3 days labor.

Did they rip you off?

You agreed to their charge. It was worth it to you to pay 3 days of labor to get your stereo functional. So why shouldn't they charge you what you agreed the fix was worth?

I think this is a clearcut case of a knowledgeable person taking advantage of someone unknowledgeable. And so I think that scarlett's point is valid. They charged him for an hour for something that took 2 minutes. I think it would have been fair for them to reduce the price of the repair after they realized how easy it would be.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know about the UK, but doctors and lawyers here in the US would charge you "regular" price for a few minutes worth or work.


I remember an episode of the Cosby Show where one of the daughters' boyfriends gets in an argument with Bill Cosby. He says that midwifes charge a small fraction of what a doctor charges, and Bill responds, "yeah, but they lack the equipment and expertise to deal with a problem if it arises." The boyfriend then asks, "But do you refund their money if there aren't any problems?"


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know about the UK, but doctors and lawyers here in the US would charge you "regular" price for a few minutes worth or work.


Hey, leave us out of this.....

:laugh:


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## KBT2011 (Dec 29, 2011)

To the OP, I agree that there is this look at car audio as if it is a daunting task. It has its challenging parts but something that is certainly doable, especially if you take your time and try to educate yourself along the way. As far as shops go, I've had work done several years ago from Custom Sound Works in Lubbock, TX with great results.


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## adambriner (Sep 14, 2012)

Just trying to post so I can PM someone on here about a saftey concern I have with his setup. Carry on.


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## Lmarti (May 21, 2011)

I have a funny but true story. I was testing out a car audio shop. i wanted to see what type of work they put out.i went in there to see if they had any fans for amps that were any good. they told me yes and took me to the show case where they had them at. they said the cheapest fan they had was 60 bucks. i was like wtf. that's a regular computer fan that i could get a microcenter for like 5 bucks. he said no this one is speccialy built for amps. i was like they look exactly the same that was beacuse they were the same. i knew he was lying but i wanted to see what else he would lie about. then he asked me what amp i was going to use it on. i told him that i had an audison amp. he didnt even know what brand audison was. he was like thats flee market brand. im like wtf are you talking about. he goes you should get a hifonics amp. that there the best in the buissness. i lol in my head so hard but still keeping a straight face. i was like for real.i said wow i must have gotten ripped off then. he said yea that i should have gotten the amp from them in the first place. lol. i then asked him if he knew how to wire up the fan to the amp. his answer made me amazed at how much this guy didnt know. he goes what are you serous you dont know how.he goes red is to constant power. the yellow is acccsory and black is ground. that i have to run wires from behind the radio all the way to my fan.i then asked him i thought you were suppose to use the remote turn on wire.(i know for a fact that you have to use the remote turn on wire to turn on the fan)he goes no that hAS nothing to do with the fans. i myself know there's 3 wires on a computer fan. 1 is black aka ground. the other is yellow. and red which is for power. i know you run the remote turn on wire to the red wire and then you ground the black. then your good.i say well no thanks on the fan. that its too expensive. he goes not really every where else there even more. i was trying so hard to hold the laughter in.. i said well thanks for all the good info and bye. i left that shop in my head thinking there is no way in the world i am ever going back in there.


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## BlueOval (Nov 10, 2012)

Fisher Price - My First Post!

I started out thinking I didn't even have an opinion on this one as I've never had a piece of gear installed by someone who wasn't...well...me. BUT, I'm going to trust my truck to have a remote start installed by a former big box installer this weekend. Fortunately I've made sure to specify exactly how I want it to be installed, and the level of quality I expect. But I have enough common sense to understand what I'm asking of someone with certain skills and motivation to do what I want. I'm asking them to do something I can't, or don't know enough to, or am not willing to learn how to do, or just plain don't want to do, myself. I then laid out my expectations, followed by the question of "How much?" I didn't start by saying, I have $xxx, and I want a smart start installed, then after the fact, complaining about them not installing it to my standards when I didn't communicate my standards to begin with. They may have simply said, "Okay, I can do that" or they would have told me to get lost, and that I'm asking for something unreasonable, either way, I wouldn't run and tell everyone "they suck"...

Not knowing what you're buying isn't just about the products on the shelf, it's also about the service you're paying for. When you pay to have "an amp and subs installed" sounds like to me like it just has to be inside the vehicle, and working. If your expectations are much higher than that, you're either at the wrong place, or you're paying too little, and come on, you MUST know it. 

When you ask someone for a price on "a custom set of fiberglass A-pillars to fit X vehicle and Y tweeters wrapped in Z material" sounds a lot like you want a very specific service, and specific services cost specific money. If you don't want to pay it, you only have a few options. Lower the expectations to lower the price, or trade your time for your money, and learn to do it yourself. After all, isn't that part of why you're here? 

I give up, too many more ridiculous posts, mostly generalizing the car audio industry as a whole, and unfairly judging everyone involved in it, because of one bad experience. There ARE professionals, there ARE good installers, fabricators, and technicians. There ARE good shops out there, they DO make money, and they DO have great customer service. And they don't have YOU to thank for their success. 

If you were as motivated by your bad experience to post about it, as I was to post about you posting about your bad experience, then you should start by complaining to someone who can actually do something about it, like the manager, the store owner, the BBB, your parents, etc. In 7 pages, and like an hour of my time reading this entire thread, all I've really learned, is that for a DIY forum, all anyone's really bitching about here, is how much it sucks to *NOT* DO IT YOURSELF

...I want my hour back...damnit :laugh:


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

@ BlueOval, Thank you for that outlook! As a shop owner I see plenty of installations that are awful & done by so called professionals. It is frustrating for me as well as the customers. Unfortunately in many cases we are fixing a job that we initially put a bid on but were considered "too expensive". Now the job has become even more complex & most of the time requires repairing factory wiring & or the actual vehicle. I cannot stress how difficult it can be to clean up a train wreck! I can completely understand why many people are DIY'ers after seeing what many claim to be "professional installations". But I do assure you that all shops are not bad! There are the Elite shops across the country that I consider specialists. They offer the highest quality work available on the face of the planet. They are the best & they are not cheap. If you take your vehicle to them. It is not because you just want equipment installed. its that you want them to work on it. You want the best!


Jon Webb
Performance Audio Las Vegas
7035 W Sahara Ave. STE 200
Las Vegas NV 89117
(702) 538-8678

Mobile Electronics Magazine 2010-2011 Installer of the Year

www.PerformanceAudioLVNV.com

Proud Retailer of ARC Audio, Hybrid Audio, JL Audio, Audison, Hertz, Compustar, K40, Second Skin


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

BlueOval and Jon, great posts.

There are still some great shops out there doing excellent work, whether flashy & fancy or just high quality, neat, and reliable. There are shops that provide exceptional customer service.
We are not the cheapest shop in our area, and we don't want to be. We strive to carry quality products, keep up with the latest technolgies, and offer the best solutions to integrate into these newer cars that are constantly evolving.

Unfortunately there are many more shops who hack up peoples cars, use inferior parts, higher untrained and often less skilled "technicians", and sell themselves as being cheaper. I'm all for anyone who wants to open a business and enjoy the work they do, that's how our economy works. Unfortunately for the unknowing customer, they don't always know the difference besides a price quote, what's really being done to their car before hand, or that for a few bucks more they could have had a better experience.

Research the company you want working on your vehicle, or the vehicle your husband, wives, or children may ride in. Check for certifications such as ASE and MECP. Find out about industry groups they are involved with, such as MESA, ICE, MERA, SEMA, CEA. Check them out on Angie's List and the BBB. Ask good questions about your installation and general practices. Will T-Taps and scotchlocks be used for your security or remote start system? Will they use a data integration module for your remote start if available? If working on a motorcycle, will bulkhead or molex plugs be used so the bike can be easily serviced? Have they performed this type of installation on your particular vehicle before?
Do not just ask for a price, a number is a number. Do your research. Clearly explain what you want, and ask for good service at a fair price.


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## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

another thing to keep in mind, you aren't always just paying someone for their time, you are paying for their knowledge. Yes, you paid x amount of money for only a few minutes work. That valuable technician was able to diagnose and fix what you couldn't in a short time- experience and knowledge. You could have wasted half a day of your time troubleshooting, or you could have gone to an inferior shop and wait around for a full hour as they attempted to figure out a "bandaid" for the problem. Instead you handed a man a few bucks and 5 minutes later you were out enjoying your afternoon.

Jusy like a car dealership may charge you more per hour than firestone or jiffylube to work on your vehicle, but they have the best tech information, have worked on your year/make/model numerous times, and may have experience your cars symptoms. Therefore it gets fixed correctly at $100/hr in two hours, instead of $65/hr for a full day. Easy choice there.

Do you deserve to be paid more at your job because you went and got a college degree or industry specific training? sure. do you deserve to be paid well because you have 15+years experience and are very proficient at what you do? absolutely. so do your QUALITY 12v installation technicians.


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Yeah they all ****ing suck dude. Stop trying to justify it, we all know shops blow.
> 
> 
> They raped my friend for generic gear.
> ...



First off I apologize about the delayed response. (By over a year!) I've been extremely busy & life hasn't given me many opportunities to post. 

Second, I'm sorry to hear about your absolutely awful experiences with multiple shops in the past & I'd like to extend an open invitation for you to visit our shop if you're ever in Las Vegas. No strings attached as I'm not trying to sell anything to you or build a vehicle for you. But I'd like to show you what makes us different. As for the way you feel about audio shops sucking. I feel your pain! Seeing the jobs that we fix makes it very easy to come to that conclusion! You wouldn't believe the things we fix for clients that paid for a job! Or maybe you would! Lol Unfortunately this One Industry doesn't screen technicians or have a respectable Industry standard set for it. We've made every effort to set the standard & our goal is to lead the pack. What disgusts me is if you can make equipment turn on & play you're an Installer & you're hired! My only intentions are to show you that there are some shops that strive for perfection! We may be few & far between but they are out there. Bing & Superjay can vouch that I'm OCD & not medicated (I joke about it but very true. Lol.) Consider it an open invitation. Plus I always like having visitors! 

Good luck in your future projects & I hope to see you swing by sometime! 

Jon Webb
Performance Audio Las Vegas
7353 W Sahara Ave.
Las Vegas NV 89117
(702) 538-8678

Mobile Electronics Magazine 2010-2011 Installer of the Year
Mobile Electronics Magazine Top 100 2011-2012
Mobile Electronics Magazine Top 100 2021-2013
Mobile Electronics Magazine Top 12 Retailers 2010-2011

Car Audio, Car Tint, Car Alarm, Car Stereo Installation, Custom Car Stereo, Custom Car Audio | Performance Audio of Las Vegas, Nevada

Proud Retailer of ARC Audio, Hybrid Audio, JL Audio, Elettromedia Master Dealer for Audison, Hertz, & Audison Connection, Compustar, K40, Hushmat, PAC Electronice, Stinger, & Idatalink (ADS)


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

2010hhrlt said:


> Yeah that sounds great, but that's not how the first shop I went to did it.
> 
> And they DID have a pimped out 2005 or newer lexus, 20" expensive chrome wheels, rubber band tires, nice paint.
> 
> I guess it does come down to not all car audio shops being the same. But if that's the case, why are some even allowed to operate like that? It gives car audio shops a bad name.


Again sorry for the year late response.. 

You nailed it with that post! All shops aren't the same. Then again that is pretty much how everything is everywhere. If you're ever in Vegas swing by. 
I'd love to give any of you a tour of our facility. It's a work in progress but I'm very proud of our shop. A Ton of work went into this place so we could have a top notch facility that gave us the ability to execute the highest standard of work possible as efficiently as possible. In house we have a full wood shop, metal fabrication shop, & a trim room for upholstry. Lots more work ahead of us but I'm loving the designated rooms instead of having to setup each & every day for woodworking or metal fab! 


Jon Webb
Performance Audio Las Vegas
7353 W Sahara Ave.
Las Vegas NV 89117
(702) 538-8678

Mobile Electronics Magazine 2010-2011 Installer of the Year
Mobile Electronics Magazine Top 100 2011-2012
Mobile Electronics Magazine Top 100 2021-2013
Mobile Electronics Magazine Top 12 Retailers 2010-2011

Car Audio, Car Tint, Car Alarm, Car Stereo Installation, Custom Car Stereo, Custom Car Audio | Performance Audio of Las Vegas, Nevada

Proud Retailer of ARC Audio, Hybrid Audio, JL Audio, Elettromedia Master Dealer for Audison, Hertz, & Audison Connection, Compustar, K40, Hushmat, PAC Electronice, Stinger, & Idatalink (ADS)


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

Hahha.. way to follow up, Jon, only a year later... 

Hey, if any of you are in Vegas, make sure to stop by and see Jon, he has a new shop that is AWESOME!


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

PerformanceAudioLVNV said:


> Again sorry for the year late response..
> 
> You nailed it with that post! All shops aren't the same. Then again that is pretty much how everything is everywhere. If you're ever in Vegas swing by.
> I'd love to give any of you a tour of our facility. It's a work in progress but I'm very proud of our shop. A Ton of work went into this place so we could have a top notch facility that gave us the ability to execute the highest standard of work possible as efficiently as possible. In house we have a full wood shop, metal fabrication shop, & a trim room for upholstry. Lots more work ahead of us but I'm loving the designated rooms instead of having to setup each & every day for woodworking or metal fab!
> ...


Hey Jon, Long time since my visit. It was before his fancy new shop but I can 100% guarantee this is a top notch guy and well worth the visit. I know my wife and I still talk about our 3 hour visit with Jon, his wife and little guy. We both had a lot of fun talking and this is from my wife would really could care less about the audio installation but she does appreciate the ultimate musical outcome like most people. I look forward to my next visit to Vegas whenever that might be and I will be certain to drop in and say hi once again and check out the new shop.



[email protected] said:


> Hahha.. way to follow up, Jon, only a year later...
> 
> Hey, if any of you are in Vegas, make sure to stop by and see Jon, he has a new shop that is AWESOME!


I have never met Joey or Bing in person but they are on my short list of people to visit if I ever get back to the Bay area in the future. Both of these guys have been a massive help to me various times and they had to need to. Just take a look at the many build logs SiS has on this site and you will know just how good these two guys are. You might pay a little more than your local hack but you know you'll only pay once for it.


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## Noobdelux (Oct 20, 2011)

james2266 said:


> . You might pay a little more than your local hack but you know you'll only pay once for it.


as long as you do not get adicted on quality work and goes back for upgrades heheheh


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## fast4door (Aug 2, 2012)

this old 5% rule applies here: 5% of people ruin it for 95% of the population


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Do your due diligence and research the shops you are interested in going to. Ask around. If you are looking for a premium brand, then shop shop shop! 
I know I would buy an E63 at Uncle Bobby B's Used Cars, but rather at a Premium European Car Sales location.

Remember, just like in equipment, you get what you pay for. You want cheap, you will get cheap and keep paying for it. Research and pay once.


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Hahha.. way to follow up, Jon, only a year later...
> 
> Hey, if any of you are in Vegas, make sure to stop by and see Jon, he has a new shop that is AWESOME!


Who let you out of the shop?
Bing you better check on JOey! He might be sneaking away to take a break! I know you don't allow that kind of thing!


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## PerformanceAudioLVNV (Apr 1, 2010)

james2266 said:


> Hey Jon, Long time since my visit. It was before his fancy new shop but I can 100% guarantee this is a top notch guy and well worth the visit. I know my wife and I still talk about our 3 hour visit with Jon, his wife and little guy. We both had a lot of fun talking and this is from my wife would really could care less about the audio installation but she does appreciate the ultimate musical outcome like most people. I look forward to my next visit to Vegas whenever that might be and I will be certain to drop in and say hi once again and check out the new shop.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never met Joey or Bing in person but they are on my short list of people to visit if I ever get back to the Bay area in the future. Both of these guys have been a massive help to me various times and they had to need to. Just take a look at the many build logs SiS has on this site and you will know just how good these two guys are. You might pay a little more than your local hack but you know you'll only pay once for it.


You're always welcome back any time! Had a blast! Plus you gave me a break from my dungeon! Lol


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

PerformanceAudioLVNV said:


> Who let you out of the shop?
> Bing you better check on JOey! He might be sneaking away to take a break! I know you don't allow that kind of thing!


How is he gonna do that when he is on vacation! ahhahahaaa!!!! I might even take another break!


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## 69Voltage (Jul 30, 2013)

SQ Audi said:


> Do your due diligence and research the shops you are interested in going to. Ask around. If you are looking for a premium brand, then shop shop shop!
> I know I would buy an E63 at Uncle Bobby B's Used Cars, but rather at a Premium European Car Sales location.
> 
> Remember, just like in equipment, you get what you pay for. You want cheap, you will get cheap and keep paying for it. Research and pay once.


Well said.

Speaking from recent experience, if a person is expecting a shop to set them up with a quality system and an excellent install, then that person needs to do a TON of research before ever stepping foot in any shop. You need to have a good idea of the system design your vehicle requires, the quality of your desired components, the average prices of said components and the average price of doing the install so you can determine if you're getting a fair deal.

I hit multiple shops in my area during research to find the type of sound and build I desired. The prices for the components were all very reasonable between the shops, but the prices for install varied by thousands. 

The customer should have a decent knowledge of the cost of each part of the install, from the components to the labor. That way he can have an intelligent conversation with the shops and come to a fair agreement. He can call ******** when needed and get his cost down to what's reasonable.

I found that all of the shops I visited would have given me a great system, something I would have been completely happy with. But it's up to the consumer to make sure he has the knowledge to choose the right shop. As it is when purchasing any product.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

SQ Audi said:


> Remember, just like in equipment, you get what you pay for. You want cheap, you will get cheap and keep paying for it. Research and pay once.


I learned this the hard way... Buy cheap, buy (at least) twice.

Sadly, the same goes for expensive in some cases. If it's an overhyped, niche brand, chances are it isn't worth the money either.


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## The Performer (Aug 12, 2012)

This thread is hilarious. Any of you that say you won't go to stereo shops need to realize that maybe it's best you just don't go anyway and leave it at that. 



Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

There are good shops and there are bad shops, just like with any service. You found the wrong shop. 

To say that because you've installed stuff in a few cars you're a master is ridiculous.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Contrary to this thread, my next vehicle is going to a professional to have the system put in, assuming I even put a system in it. I'm getting too old to mess with this mobile audio hobby and I no longer enjoy tinkering with it myself.


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## boogeyman (Jul 1, 2008)

I have never had a shop do any work for me, but in the mid 90's a local shop came to town. My good friend and mentor was one of the installers. I would get to hang out in the install bay on my days off. The owners Michael and Michelle Stricklin use to let me take the demo van, full size ford with 12 18's to go get lunch for everyone. I had a 93 sentra at the time and was broke but wanted a big system. Michael called me one day and said a customer had 8 punch 15's in lay-a-way who had not paid in 4 months and said if I paid the balance of 200 dollars they were mine, so I did. U.S. Amps VLX400 was buzzing in the industry not out yet he told me I had to get one. I filled out a financing form and was accepted IF I had a cosigner. I was 19 at that time. Michelle called me and told me on my next weekday off to come up there to the shop. I went up there and she told me to get in her car we was going to the bank and she was going to cosign for me. I got the amp for cost, Michael said he just wanted to see the 44 inch amp. My buddy and Michael also walked me through the whole installation process at their shop. They let me use their tools, wire , distribution blocks ,Rca's free of charge. I did the whole install myself. For everything they did for me all they asked was I put a sticker of their shop name on my car and go to USAC competitions with them and some of their customers.


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## SkipNJ (Mar 12, 2009)

You know what, I just ran 4 channels of speaker wire from the rear into my front doors, 6 channels of RCA, fuse holder on a bracket, remote and power wire, installed the amp, installed my door speakers and HU, and did some tuning. I tried to do it right the way I've seen it done here. It was a total pain in the ass. I had to make a lot of trips to home depot and a lot of online orders for random things I thought I had covered. Today I cut MDF for my box with a circular saw, a straight edge and some clamps. I got all the edges straight for once, but 2 pieces aren't a perfect fit, and most of the pieces aren't the exact dimensions I wanted. I spent like 2 hours just measuring. I can understand why shops charge a lot if they do good work.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkipNJ said:


> You know what, I just ran 4 channels of speaker wire from the rear into my front doors, 6 channels of RCA, fuse holder on a bracket, remote and power wire, installed the amp, installed my door speakers and HU, and did some tuning. I tried to do it right the way I've seen it done here. It was a total pain in the ass. I had to make a lot of trips to home depot and a lot of online orders for random things I thought I had covered. Today I cut MDF for my box with a circular saw, a straight edge and some clamps. I got all the edges straight for once, but 2 pieces aren't a perfect fit, and most of the pieces aren't the exact dimensions I wanted. I spent like 2 hours just measuring. I can understand why shops charge a lot if they do good work.



True....i have done work on my car at my brothers store in his install bay..and its so nice to be inside..with tons of lights, and AC. And if i need a tool or some wire its right there. And if i need some product, again its right there on the shelf to grab. Much more convenient than running to HD or overnighting something from Amazon.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> Contrary to this thread, my next vehicle is going to a professional to have the system put in, assuming I even put a system in it. I'm getting too old to mess with this mobile audio hobby and I no longer enjoy tinkering with it myself.


you need to update your signature to show your true age...you can't possibly be only 40


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

I sort of agree with the last few statements. I have been pretty heavy into this hobby for about 5-6 years now and I do have a go to shop and yes they aren't cheap really. I will say that they do amazing work and everything looks like it belongs when they are done. They don't take any short cuts in anything. This is what I want and why I choose them to be my shop. I did pay for a full install a few vehicles ago and it was painful on the wallet. Now, I have learned a ton from this site and there are many things I do myself. None of it is what I would consider easy piece of cake work although I think most anyone with at least good dexterity of hand can do alot of it. I will say you need patience to do alot of things right tho and that is one of my faults. There are some things that I would rather just pay to get done be it because it will be looked at directly all day long and/or I just don't have the tools/materials or know how to get to a point I can live with in the install. Case in point is my latest build project: My a pillars build for my midrange/tweet combo. I cut the baffles, built the pillars with fiberglass, three types of filler and a pile of sanding and more sanding. I will get them to make them look like they belong. It is going to cost me likely 2-300 but for me it is worth it not to have to mess with that and likely waste alot of material and still not have it look as they can. They have the proper glue, the suede, the tools and the know-how; all of which I don't. Well, I guess I know how the wrapping goes but I know that is not a strength of mine. I did not get them to do the whole job due to what this would have cost me for one but also the fact that I kind of enjoy that part of it even if it is messy as all hell. It is nice to say that I built that if someone ever asks (although unlikely anyone ever will really around here). Shops like this ARE needed and I wish there were more of them around. I live in a city over a mill in population and they are pretty much the only game in town. There are other shops, sure, but none of them produces the results I look for. If I'm paying my hard earned money it had better be as I envision it in the end and with these guys it has always been. They also really truly stand behind their work if anything ever goes wrong and that is huge to me too.​


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## pbasil1 (Mar 4, 2011)

9 out of 10 shops i walk into dont actually know much of anything in the high end line of equipment, nor do they care. They make gobs of money putting cheap 12"s in cheap cars ridin on 22"s. lol

If you see some high end manufacturer signs like focal or morel or whatever in the window your chances are much better, but still not certain they know what they are talking about and doing.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

miniSQ said:


> you need to update your signature to show your true age...you can't possibly be only 40


I'm 40 with a bad left knee, a back that injures easily, and a pinched nerve that flares up in my right shoulder every time a cold front passes through. The last thing I want to do is contort into odd positions to run wires again because it takes me too long to recover from that.:blush:


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

At 5pm today I went to a shop I do repairs for to drop some off and pick some up.While I was there talking to the owner a customer walked in and ask me about putting a system in his car.I was standing behind the counter by the cash register so he assumed I worked there.He was very clear that he liked his mids and highs loud and clean and wanted just enough boom to keep up with them.He stated he would like to use Kenwood if possible.
At this point I let the owner take over and went off talking to an installer.
15 minutes later I came back and this is what there plan was.
A kennwood HU
2 Kenwood 3way 6.5's in each door
A Kenwood 4 channel amp.
A pair of Kicker comp 12's in a prefab ported box
And a Kenwood 1000watt mono amp.
Amp kit,dash kit and installation.
$1650 even.
The guy handed him his CC took his receipt and walked out with an appointment Monday morning to have it installed.

I said"why didnt you sell him components"?His answer"He really only wanted to spend $1500 so I had to stretch it out,he wouldnt notice the difference anway"

This is what you will get around here in the Cincy area.They are all the same.They build custom boxes but dont have any programs.They go by whats in the manual if your lucky.If not they just build what fits and use a 4"x12" port.
Yes,they told me this.
When I think what I could have done for this guy with $1650 I get upset.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> At 5pm today I went to a shop I do repairs for to drop some off and pick some up.While I was there talking to the owner a customer walked in and ask me about putting a system in his car.I was standing behind the counter by the cash register so he assumed I worked there.He was very clear that he liked his mids and highs loud and clean and wanted just enough boom to keep up with them.He stated he would like to use Kenwood if possible.
> At this point I let the owner take over and went off talking to an installer.
> 15 minutes later I came back and this is what there plan was.
> A kennwood HU
> ...


pretty decent price including installation


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

He could have put a much better sounding system together for the guy and stayed within his budget.None of it was Excelon.It was all the low end Kenwood.His cost was around $700 for the products.I saw the invoice.
He seen a guy who thought Kenwood was some of the best stuff and took advantage of the situation.We had this conversation a while back and he told me when a customer wants a certain product we dont try to change it,we go with it.
It would have been Kenwood subs but they didnt have any.


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## rdubbs (Sep 26, 2012)

I walked into one of the local shops in my town and told the one guy exactly what I was looking for and asked for some pricing, as he was looking stuff up I was discussing what my goals were for the system, making it clear I had a decent amount of knowledge and put in a ton of research, he gave me the pricing and we discussed a little more. Didn't wind up buying anything because honestly I knew it was still overpriced for BNIB.

Went in a week later, had a different sales rep, asked about something else, then asked about the same things (just for curiosity's sake) was given a price much higher than the one of the other sales rep. I mentioned it and he gave me some BS excuse lol. Needless to say, I won't be doing any business there whatsoever if they can't keep their own pricing in check.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

rdubbs, don't take this the wrong way, but why do you keep going back asking prices if you aren't going to buy there? Car dealers offer different prices all the time and I haven't ever heard anyone say "this guy was giving me a better deal, I am never going back there"... lol...
Maybe the first guy gave you better pricing because he understood your knowledge and was trying to reward you for it?


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

If anyone is interested in the real story that happened with Gordon and the second shop he mentioned, I'd love to share it.


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## rdubbs (Sep 26, 2012)

I had every intention of buying from them, they're the only locally authorized JL dealer so I was interested in a few things. 

There's a number of other reasons I won't go back there, one of which is they botched a friends install (no fuse at the battery :S basically overpowered the amp) but I found that out afterwards. 

I'm assuming that in our discussion he was rewarding me for it, but who really knows other than him? It just seemed as we kept talking and that he could have cared less if I actually purchased any product from him. The second sales guy gave off the same vibe. 

I totally understand they don't know me and aren't going to cut me any record breaking deals as obviously they've got to make money, but when I start asking about install techniques, running active and the sales guys (who also install) start telling me that active really isn't worth the money and when I ask why they think that, they say oh well as long as you run good equipment, time alignment doesn't matter, it kind of goes against everything I've learned here on the forums. I asked then how many active systems they've done and he said "only two and in one of the installs the Bit Ten blew up when we installed it so we just used JL's cleansweep instead"

Obviously DIYMA isn't the be all end all of Car Audio, and neither is this shop and everyone has their own opinions but I just don't know why guys who are professionals in the industry aren't willing to really give active a chance and explore it to it's potential. I get it's a business but wouldn't you want to offer the widest range of business to attract the most amount of customers.

I had the chance to visit a shop about an hour away from me and I got a totally different experience. Also a JL authorized dealer, the shop owner was really welcoming and was more interested in talking about his experiences and his beliefs and told me how he makes sure he gets down to CES every year, gets down to JL every year and tours the factory and sees how much research they put into their products and that he will always stand behind JL because of how much they care. A totally different approach to dealing with a potential customer. He basically sold me on using his shop if I decide not to DIY the install just in how he approached me. 

So it's not that I'll never step into a shop again, I just won't go back to somewhere that I found to be inconsistent and stand off ish. Maybe I was being a dick in their opinion I don't know but it just seemed like they could have cared less that I was even interested in buying from them even when they offered me a "decent" price for Canadian shops.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

After reading your comments, I wouldn't go back to that first shop either. I wouldn't rule out all shops, though. I am glad you had a good experience at the second shop. All shops ain't bad!!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm curious why he is ragging on the shop's employee's level of intelligence but thinks not having a system fuse over powers the amp...


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## rdubbs (Sep 26, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> After reading your comments, I wouldn't go back to that first shop either. I wouldn't rule out all shops, though. I am glad you had a good experience at the second shop. All shops ain't bad!!


If I lived in California I don't think this would have been an issue since I would have simply just booked an appointment with you and Bing 



quality_sound said:


> I'm curious why he is ragging on the shop's employee's level of intelligence but thinks not having a system fuse over powers the amp...


I'm not trying to rag on their level of intelligence, more of their quality of service and desire for experience. I'm sure they do lots of great installations for many of their customers otherwise they probably would have been out of business, but when I asked my friend about his experience and he tells me "Well my amplifier popped, smelled really bad and stopped working (Jl XD 600/1) and I called over our other mutual friend since I didn't know what to do, he looked to check and disconnect the fuse, and there wasn't one. So he had to just disconnect the wires." You can imagine the other expletives that were included in that. Maybe it wasn't not having a fuse and was a bad amp, or this guy could be making things up since he never followed up with the shop, it's just something else that added to my perceptions of this place and that I wouldn't want to trust someone with my vehicle if there is even the slightest chance that they missed something so simple as protecting the equipment in the system and the car from any damage.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

At my shop we have very obvious standards to meet in order for a car to pass. Our shop manager is an anal hawk that will find a problem almost instantly... he knows where to look and knows each installer's strengths and weaknesses and will catch you. I'm not going to proclaim that every guy will run wires in a protective orb of love but the issue mentioned early in this stream about a wire being run around a grommet would not pass the shop manager's inspection, for example. If I did that, I'd get in trouble... in fact I wouldn't doubt the owner of the shop, if he heard about it, would sit me down himself. Unsafe wiring is just half ass lazy ******** that is unacceptable.

I'd encourage anyone who wants to talk about how a shop like mine works to PM me and I'll be happy to talk to you on the phone. Our sales and install functions are completely separate and interact only to understand customer preferences and provide feedback on fitment, sound, and other things that will help the sales folks provide recommendations. As installers, our job is to take even junky Planet Audio speakers and make them sound as good as we can get them within the parameters of the car and what the customer has paid for. We use foam tape to decouple speakers, we have guys that know where the typical rattle points are on most cars to target Hushmat (we sell that because it comes in black) installation effectively, etc.

Anyway, there's a difference between how you would do it if you were doing it vs. how an installer does it. We have a mandate to run wires along factory wiring channels wherever possible and achievable but we aren't going to completely dismantle your car for a basic $65 amplifier install. That's not what the customer paid for - taking apart a car takes a very long time and adds risk to the job. The myth of a $100/hr. labor rate and whether it's worth it noted in this stream doesn't seem to happen from my vantage point. Yes, it's extremely expensive to pay someone to install for you, but if you can't do it or don't have the time, a good shop will do it for you well. In some cars, it takes all of 30-min. to throw in a head unit. But if we have an issue with the crappy Metra/Scosche kits we have to use or your car is more complicated because of an internal amp or not much dash space or whatever the case may be, we get it in there right, same price (obviously excepting if custom fab is required).

If you want something done in a certain way at my shop, you tell the sales person who relays that to the installer. The installer may call you directly for clarification or, more usually, ask the sales person to do so. If what you want will require a lot more work than a typical install, yes, you'll have to pay for that extra work. It is what it is.

I know I'm guaranteed the slowest guy at the shop because when I'm a zip tie junky, securing new wiring often and finding places to hide wires and make them look as factory as possible. But no, I'm going going to loom every single wire or put braided flex cover on every single wire, just the ones in the engine bay. No, I'm not going to run your power wire down the center of the car instead of the most appropriate side of the car just because that's how you'd do it - it'd require me to dismantle your car and I'm not being paid for that. I do things that "aren't paid for" all the time, and so do other installers, to ensure the job is secure. I'm the only one at the shop that from the get-go twisted the wires behind the head unit. Is it necessary? No. Will the customer ever see it? No. But I will not stand for one of my installs to be pulled out and look like the garbage that I have seen other shops and home installers do, wondering why their HU doesn't work. I've had to completely rebuild stock wiring that was cut and tapped into just to install a HU properly. It is what it is. In the end, sadly, my personal labor rate is nowhere near $100/hr. I don't think anyone at the shop is that well-paid. I'd say a good day is a $300 labor day for an installer. That's from 9AM to 6PM. Do the math.

You can request a specific installer, too, if you want. We have guys there than seemingly can wire up the most complicated of car alarms in their sleep and guys who are ex-mechanics or who have been installing since the only thing you could install was a CB radio and Motorola box phone. These guys can take apart the ridiculously complicated cars properly and without breaking things and know wire color codes by heart for so many obscure random cars like it's written on the back of their hand. One guy is an ex-Lexus mechanic, for example - he gets or consults on all Lexus installs because some of them are tricky - a bit ridiculously so, in fact. I once did a Lexus coupe (I think it was a 430?) and he consulted telling me every single weak point on the door cards and dash ensuring nothing got damaged (the leather work in this particular car is garbage and if you breath on it wrong it'll goof up). Got it done right, customer was happy, boom. 

I guess I would only personally go to a shop that has a big SQ background - specifically the owner or head installer being an accomplished SQ guy. Maybe an SPL shop too but I keep finding that those places don't give me a good fluffy feeling inside and I don't relate to their suggestions. I'd also only go to a shop that has a lot of resources. My shop is connected to a distribution center for a lot of the car audio gear in Southeast. If we need it, we have it. There's usually no "we have to order it" issues. We bulk order wood for boxes, PVC for baffles, screws, terminals, foam tape, solder, this, that, the other. A lot of times a corner cut is because the shop didn't have XYZ on-hand to not do so. And again, we have a bunch of experienced installers. One guy was a guy who built cop cars from the factory Crown Vic... I wouldn't be surprised if he could wire up a space shuttle.

But anywho, drop me a line. Happy to discuss if you want.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Here's a tip, guys. 

Retailers are not often hot to do business with forum guys because many of you go in there spouting something you read, pretending to be an expert, holding out information they need to appropriately qualify you and sell you the right stuff and the right installation because you want them to pay tribute to your expertise and compete with some sideways seller from the Amazon marketplace on price. If they do that, they waste a bunch of time and an bunch of money. Many of them are hobbiests, but they also have a business to run and jacking with you for hours doesn't make sense if you aren't going to buy.

The sales guy may not have all of the technical experience necessary to compete with people like me, Manville, Partick Bateman, etc and you guys have access to us here. Give the sales guy a break and ask if you can talk to an installer too--but only if you intend to buy something. If what you really want to do is listen to yourself talk for five hours, collect a bunch of brochures you can hang on your ceiling above your bed and then buy online, give the shop a break and don't bother going there. 

Finally, if you're a brand fanboy, try finding a dealer in the same way you find a brand. Go talk to them, have a little respect for their time and try to determine which shop in town is the one that does quality work rather than just wants to send you out the door with a pair of fideens and a 3000 watt amp for $500. 

Car audio shops aren't all the same just like car audio customers aren't all the same. Try to make it a little easier for the right shop to provide the kind of experience you'd like to have by enthusiastically giving them the information they need.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Wehmeyered - when you were going to say something, but Andy Wehmeyer has already said it better than you ever could. 

As in, I've been Wehmeyered.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Here's a tip, guys.
> 
> Retailers are not often hot to do business with forum guys because many of you go in there spouting something you read, pretending to be an expert, holding out information they need to appropriately qualify you and sell you the right stuff and the right installation because you want them to pay tribute to your expertise and compete with some sideways seller from the Amazon marketplace on price. If they do that, they waste a bunch of time and an bunch of money. Many of them are hobbiests, but they also have a business to run and jacking with you for hours doesn't make sense if you aren't going to buy.
> 
> ...


Extremely well said.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Anyone want to see the character of OP? Check this out...

How do I sneek beer at a bar? | San Jose | Yelp


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

very well said Andy.

to me i will say it again:

1. dont judge an industry sector by a few bad experiences with certain shops.

2. dont judge all forum reading consumers by a few time wasting know it all people

3. there is a lot of common ground to be had in between.

4. before you call out a bad shop, think about yourself and say, "am I a good customer?"

5. before you call out ******* customers, think about your shop and say "am I a good shop?"


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

VP Electricity said:


> Wehmeyered - when you were going to say something, but Andy Wehmeyer has already said it better than you ever could.
> 
> As in, I've been Wehmeyered.


Oh my god this is great lmao


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> I'm curious why he is ragging on the shop's employee's level of intelligence but thinks not having a system fuse over powers the amp...


my thoughts exactly


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

As soon as I read Andy's reply I was thinking "How I Met Your Mother" as well. 

It's absolutely true. When I was still in retail I HATED guys that just wanted to talk all day or tell me how we SHOULD be doing things or what we needed to improve on. If he was so good, why was he in my shop? I never tried to rip anyone off but I also needed to make money, not just for the shop, but for my family since I, like every other salesman I knew at all of the competing shops in the area, was on commission. My time WAS my money.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

quality_sound said:


> As soon as I read Andy's reply I was thinking "How I Met Your Mother" as well.
> 
> It's absolutely true. When I was still in retail I HATED guys that just wanted to talk all day or tell me how we SHOULD be doing things or what we needed to improve on. If he was so good, why was he in my shop? I never tried to rip anyone off but I also needed to make money, not just for the shop, but for my family since I, like every other salesman I knew at all of the competing shops in the area, was on commission. My time WAS my money.


I have direct experience with OP. He is word for word exactly what you described. 

I'm glad there are members in this thread that didn't jump on the bandwagon and actually questioned him. His motives are definitely questionable.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I've stated before that depending on your perspective the state of this industry (and specifically retailers) can be depressing. However, it all does really boil down to perspective. In my town my selection is limited in terms of available product, and even more limited once I narrow it down to shops I would actually want to work with. 

Because of this, I found DIYMA. Because of DIYMA, I began attending get togethers, open houses and competitions. Because I began attending these events, I was exposed to new products and a wider variety of shops. Because of this exposure, my perspective changed. 

I now count myself very fortunate to have met what many would consider some "heavy hitters" not only on DIYMA, but in the mobile audio industry as a whole. I've also had opportunity to purchase through some of these new connections. Beyond that, I have now broadened my options to several shops/installers that I would be completely confident leaving my vehicle with for an install. With this new perspective also comes the understanding of what it truly costs if you want top notch work done on your car. 

Has any of what is available to me locally changed? Not at all. Has my opinion of these shops changed? Not at all. Has my opinion of the industry as a whole changed? Certainly. There are still shops that I would use locally for some things. I love to support local business where I can. But I also know that for specific products or a big install, for me, it means a long trip out of town and being without my car for a while.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Lets get one more thing clear here. The fuse at the battery doesn't protect the amp. The fuse in the amp doesn't protect the amp. Both of those fuses are there to protect the CAR from failure. The fuse in the amp protects the car from an amplifier failure and the fuse at the battery protects the car from a power wire failure. 

It's good practice to include both fuses, but neither of them prevent an amplifier failure.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Lets get one more thing clear here. The fuse at the battery doesn't protect the amp. The fuse in the amp doesn't protect the amp. Both of those fuses are there to protect the CAR from failure. The fuse in the amp protects the car from an amplifier failure and the fuse at the battery protects the car from a power wire failure.
> 
> It's good practice to include both fuses, but neither of them prevent an amplifier failure.


completely true and hard to beat into some people. you will pop the mosfets in an amplifier well before the fuse blows if you are abusing it.

fuses protect against catastrophic failure and not to keep components from failing.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> It's good practice to include both fuses, but neither of them prevent an amplifier failure.


Great... now on to the more important question. When is the "Head Cheese" going to reveal the secret so everyone knows where to send their money?


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

^^ Soon.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

I've had good experiences and bad at shops, but mostly good. Paradyme in Sacramento is awesome. I think they had at least two IASCA championships out of that shop (way back in the day) and are great folks. Especially so, Terry S.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ^^ Soon.


:2thumbsup:



Deadpool_25 said:


> I've had good experiences and bad at shops, but mostly good. Paradyme in Sacramento is awesome. I think they had at least two IASCA championships out of that shop (way back in the day) and are great folks. Especially so, Terry S.



I stopped by Paradyme once a couple years ago while I was in Sac on business. I hit three different shops while I was up there. It was the only one that left a good and lasting impression. The guy I talked to seemed very knowledgeable and willing to spend a little time with me, even though he knew I was just in town on business.


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## vwdave (Jun 12, 2013)

I've been to. A few good shops and a bunch of bad ones. Fact is, if you can do it yourself the you would. If you can't then you go to a shop, and hope that they know what they are doing. If you don't do your homework on the shop then it's nobody's fault but your own.

Lots of DIYers think they know what they are doing but actually do a worse job than a hack shop. 

Sops typically will do a good basic job. They won't use solder and heat shrink, tech flex, or any other details that are hidden from view, unless they are doing a high end install and it is requested. A competent shop will install everything properly so that it functions according to how it was supposed to. Nothing more unless you pay for it.


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Great... now on to the more important question. When is the "Head Cheese" going to reveal the secret so everyone knows where to send their money?


I heard he was going to turn Boss around!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Deadpool_25 said:


> I've had good experiences and bad at shops, but mostly good. Paradyme in Sacramento is awesome. I think they had at least two IASCA championships out of that shop (way back in the day) and are great folks. Especially so, Terry S.


That's my old shop. I still go see Terry and Gerry every time I'm back in town.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

rton20s said:


> :2thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Auto Radio Stereo right around the corner is good too but hasn't been the same since Mike left.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I heard he was going to turn Boss around!


That's easy...ssoB.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> That's easy...ssoB.


Is that what happens when you discover that your "2000 watt" actually makes closer to 200?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Is that what happens when you discover that your "2000 watt" actually makes closer to 200?


if you look closely it says "2000 what?"


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Guys, no need to bag on Boss. They have a very specific business model and they are very successful. They're a bunch of great guys, too.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I would have no issue with a bargain brand if they were truthful. a "watt" is a measurable thing with a clear definition. when you claim some ridiculous output that is inflated to outlandish levels, you are just a lier, lol.

If Boss, dual, legacy, pryamid, et-all were to rate thier stuff in real terms, it would get more respect. a 200 watt amplfiier for $70 is a good bargain. a 2000 watt amplifier for $70 that really does 200 is deceptive.


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## 1998993C2S (Feb 2, 2011)

Professional car audio installation is often sought although rarely found.

My .02 is simply this,,, when you find a *tier one* fabrication/install shop/sales shop then pay up. Leave your money with the tier one shop with no regrets knowing you are getting just what you bargained for, and support the independent shop owner as he/she is making a living. 

Think globally, shop locally !


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## Noobdelux (Oct 20, 2011)

now where the hell is that *like* button.. and the world is anvious that they cant take their car to a shop like yours





sirbOOm said:


> At my shop we have very obvious standards to meet in order for a car to pass. Our shop manager is an anal hawk that will find a problem almost instantly... he knows where to look and knows each installer's strengths and weaknesses and will catch you. I'm not going to proclaim that every guy will run wires in a protective orb of love but the issue mentioned early in this stream about a wire being run around a grommet would not pass the shop manager's inspection, for example. If I did that, I'd get in trouble... in fact I wouldn't doubt the owner of the shop, if he heard about it, would sit me down himself. Unsafe wiring is just half ass lazy ******** that is unacceptable.
> 
> I'd encourage anyone who wants to talk about how a shop like mine works to PM me and I'll be happy to talk to you on the phone. Our sales and install functions are completely separate and interact only to understand customer preferences and provide feedback on fitment, sound, and other things that will help the sales folks provide recommendations. As installers, our job is to take even junky Planet Audio speakers and make them sound as good as we can get them within the parameters of the car and what the customer has paid for. We use foam tape to decouple speakers, we have guys that know where the typical rattle points are on most cars to target Hushmat (we sell that because it comes in black) installation effectively, etc.
> 
> ...


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