# Small conventional horns in sail panels? Why not?



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

I don't really like the idea of horns under the dash. It just sounds like too many problems with stage height, frequency response, high end extension, stage width etc.
Plus I'm rather tall and I am restricting myself enough with 10s in the doors.

I wonder, why not install horns in the spot normal tweeters are usually installed? In the sail panels (or in the corners next to a-pillar).
E.g. I was looking at the PRV d280ti, which looks really flat. Ampslab measured it with the PRV WG11-25 waveguide: PRV Audio D280Ti Compression Driver Horns Compatibility – AmpsLab
The WG11-25 is really small and I think the CD with it could fit in the sail panels, with some fiberglass of course. 
Maybe even a little wider horn could fit. The WGP14-25 seems closer to car HLCD:s.

When the horn is placed in the sail panel, that is in a "corner" of the car, wouldn't the corner work to extend the horn, just like the dash is used in under dash builds?


I mean if normal tweeters work well there, why wouldn't horns?
I'm using a DSP anyway, so time alignment is sorted with that.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

HLCD for vehicles are designed specifically to use the roll up of the dash as an extension of the throat, so you’re probably not going to gain stage height with a horn by bypassing the underdash location in favor of mounting it physically higher. Even if you happen to gain a bit of height, you’re going to run into dispersion issues and other oddities.

Years ago, Dave (user ClinesSelect) used some small compression drivers mounted in modified elliptical waveguides and mounted them in the dash corners by the pillars. Try a search for his install thread and look in the later (more recent) pages. Hopefully the pics are still available. 😎


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

A waveguide is a lot more practical for that installation location. The waveguide on the older JBL 660 worked really well when used properly.

The newer 670 set does not come with the waveguide


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## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

mikey7182 said:


> HLCD for vehicles are designed specifically to use the roll up of the dash as an extension of the throat, so you’re probably not going to gain stage height with a horn by bypassing the underdash location in favor of mounting it physically higher. Even if you happen to gain a bit of height, you’re going to run into dispersion issues and other oddities.
> 
> Years ago, Dave (user ClinesSelect) used some small compression drivers mounted in modified elliptical waveguides and mounted them in the dash corners by the pillars. Try a search for his install thread and look in the later (more recent) pages. Hopefully the pics are still available. 😎


Well I just think it's impractical to have horns under the dash. And if I want to demo the doors outside, they won't be heard there.

I found ClinesSelect's thread, but sadly, none of his pics are available.



Focused4door said:


> A waveguide is a lot more practical for that installation location. The waveguide on the older JBL 660 worked really well when used properly.
> 
> The newer 670 set does not come with the waveguide


Yes but a waveguide doesn't really work with compression drivers. I want a tweeter that can keep up with one or two pro audio 10" midbasses.
That would have to be either a super tweeter or a compression driver.
If you have any cheap super tweeters to recommend that match the quality of e.g. a d220ti and are flat from 4kHz to 20kHz, tell me.
But what I have heard is that CDs sound better and they play a lot lower, so better midrange. And I could then use them for HT if I sell my car or something.


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## squiers007 (Sep 12, 2012)

Bluewoldemort said:


> Well I just think it's impractical to have horns under the dash. And if I want to demo the doors outside, they won't be heard there.
> 
> I found ClinesSelect's thread, but sadly, none of his pics are available.
> 
> ...


Waveguides can work amazingly with compression drivers, but most would be prohibitively large to put anywhere near the sails or a-pillar. In my HT setup have a set of DIYSG HTM-6's with a SEOS waveguide and they sound phenomenal, but again, even this small waveguide is 8" wide. The smallest SEOS I've seen is a little over 6" wide. There may be other waveguides for compression drivers, but I'm not familiar with them.


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## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

Yea, that's what I meant. I need something that still fits in the car and can be aimed properly. 
I would aim them straight towards me as the last octave can only be hard like this with most horns?
I have the DSP to EQ out any nasty peaks.

But have you looked at those horns I mentioned:
WG11-25.








WGP14-25.








Or maybe an elliptical horn
Dayton H45E








Dayton H07E









This last one might be a stretch to fit, but it measured very well, ampslab measured this combo.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Those Daytons are more or less what Dave used. He modified them a bit to fit but the waveguide itself remained intact. Good luck with your project. 😎


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## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

Okay so you're saying I would have best luck with those in a car. What is the dispersion pattern for such an elliptical waveguide?
Do they play well off axis or not? Should I have them horizontal or vertical?

I know according to ampslab measurements that the H07E works well down to 1,5kHz, but would the smaller H45E work as well?
If it would I would rather use that one, but i doubt it would work that well.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I’ve done a few different horns in my cars in past 

always end up with Eric’s horns in the end, I had a waveguide that played to 2.5k mounted in stock 4” locations in dash of an old 03 Jetta , it sounded excellent....

the sound quality should be fine , the issue is dispersion once frequency gets lower and getting it to match up right to the mid can be difficult as far as precise staging goes...

but if your just wanting imaging and response and dynamics there’s a lot of great horns to use.....

Although for me I’m past the days of big horns on my dash 

I would definitely entertain the idea of a 1/2” throat 3k waveguide instead of a tweeter absolutely!


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

oabeieo said:


> I’ve done a few different horns in my cars in past
> 
> always end up with Eric’s horns in the end, I had a waveguide that played to 2.5k mounted in stock 4” locations in dash of an old 03 Jetta , it sounded excellent....
> 
> ...


Seen air vents like these in a few different cars. Thought it could be pretty easily modified into a horn type waveguide. Using the window as the top of the horn.










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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Seen air vents like these in a few different cars. Thought it could be pretty easily modified into a horn type waveguide. Using the window as the top of the horn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the dispersion would be weird.....

Would it work.... sure .... would it sound good? Lol depending on the shape.... maybe up high , but **** I would not want that kind of energy next to my left glass ....... I would expect 10db cuts on left just to be balanced 

So ....... no .... probably not


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

oabeieo said:


> the dispersion would be weird.....
> 
> Would it work.... sure .... would it sound good? Lol depending on the shape.... maybe up high , but **** I would not want that kind of energy next to my left glass ....... I would expect 10db cuts on left just to be balanced
> 
> So ....... no .... probably not


Thats fair. On a side note. My car had no speakers when i got it so ive been running it on the eric stevens mb8s running full range on the stock headunit. 

Its crazy what those drivers can do

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