# First time pillar build for my E39



## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Go easy on me guys this is my first pillar build. I'm in the process of building them now. I'll be doing the milkshake tomorrow morning then using filler and sanding the chit out of them. I'll most likely be covering them in grille cloth tomorrow night. These will house a set of Audible Physics XR3m widebanders and a set of Morel MT23 tweeters. Here's a few pics of my progress so far.

Aiming the mid rings...











Mid and tweeter rings aimed and hot glued in place...










Drilled a buttload of holes in the pillar to help the glass adhere... I found that the easiest material to at least get my mold was women's pantyhose... I removed the ones I was wearing to wrap my pillars.











I'll post more pics tomorrow as I progress.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Even though this is your first pillar build your doing a great job. 

Best of all you are doing a step by step from a beginners point of view. Please
keep posting each step as a build by pic kind of thing. Something very few take
the time to do.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Thank you! I appreciate the encouragement. I have a whole new respect for pillar builds now. I'm really hoping that these turn out good! Going to bed! Tomorrow I finish these bad boys!


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Looking good! Did you play with the angles before laying down resin?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> Looking good! Did you play with the angles before laying down resin?


Yes... I worked on the angles to make sure I was getting the best sound I could get.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

A little milkshake action. I had extra so I coated the exterior with it as well... These should be nice and solid once they dry. I'll also be using modeling clay and deadener on the inside to reduce any unwanted resonances.


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

Looks good so far! I'm contemplating doing pillars or kicks. I'm kinda scared to cut into them haha


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

m0sdef said:


> Looks good so far! I'm contemplating doing pillars or kicks. I'm kinda scared to cut into them haha


Pick up a spare set of pillars from the wrecking yard. They're really not all that complicated... just time consuming! I'm hoping for some good results... I've used information from builds on here from Bing and others for reference... so far so good!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

your doing a great job. you should pick up some thin mesh fiberglass, not needed but it makes things cleaner 

did you check out my build log? it looks like you followed simplicitysuonds style, you msut of read allot of his logs


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> your doing a great job. you should pick up some thin mesh fiberglass, not needed but it makes thingers cleaner and little less bondo.
> 
> did you check out my build log? it looks like you followed simplicitysuonds style, you msut of read allot of his logs


Yep! I like Bing's work and tried to use his build logs as reference. I'm going to bondo tonight... I have a nice powered sander so it'll make it a little easier. I have thick but stretchy light gray grille cloth coming in the mail tomorrow... I'm hoping that it matches nicely! If not I purchased some nice headliner material that matches well and has a decent stretch to it. I have my son all weekend so I'm hoping to finish this up by Friday afternoon!


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

looking forward to seeing the progress on this, looks god so far!

I'm currently trying to decide if i should do a build for my tweeters in my E34 or leave them in the dash pointing at the screen. I guess i will have to have a play aiming them.

Gav


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

GavGT said:


> looking forward to seeing the progress on this, looks god so far!
> 
> I'm currently trying to decide if i should do a build for my tweeters in my E34 or leave them in the dash pointing at the screen. I guess i will have to have a play aiming them.
> 
> Gav


Tweeters are MUCH easier to do! You don't even need to glass. Just some bondo and filler and you're good to go.


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

not sure if we get bondo over here but I've seen people make resin milkshakes. Fibreglass filler I've worked with before though, i used it for my kick builds.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Yep! I like Bing's work and tried to use his build logs as reference. I'm going to bondo tonight... I have a nice powered sander so it'll make it a little easier. I have thick but stretchy light gray grille cloth coming in the mail tomorrow... I'm hoping that it matches nicely! If not I purchased some nice headliner material that matches well and has a decent stretch to it. I have my son all weekend so I'm hoping to finish this up by Friday afternoon!


CAREFUL WITH POWER SANDER!! i can't even tell you how many times i took to much off with my dremel and palm sander, i honestly was most efficiant by hand, i think 150 was very efficiant paoper, gave good finsih that didnt take much work to take down finer. but that's me. are you use rage or bondo though? that changes things too


another thing i noticed after looking more closerley at your build your pods get a little narrow if you follow my build log, you'll see i came into allot pfoblems with that. your drivers dont' need much air, shoudln't be a big deal, but you want large sweeping curves, not tight convenient curves that fit easiest. you'll notice in my final set of pods I had a much more sweeping tail off the back of the pod. this also helps finish. what are you finishing these in by the way.


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

man, i didn't know you would get going on these so fast. did you get the speakers yet and see if they fit in your rings? your probably going to have to notch the rings out to fit the speaker terminals, the only build i've seen with the xr3m where no notching was required was when only 1/8" hardboard was used as a baffle.
i should have thought of this when i sent you the dimensions on those speakers but a couple minutes with a dremmel sanding bit and you should be good to go.
looking good so far, i can't wait to see the finished product and hear what you think of the speakers.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

unemployedconsumer said:


> man, i didn't know you would get going on these so fast. did you get the speakers yet and see if they fit in your rings? your probably going to have to notch the rings out to fit the speaker terminals, the only build i've seen with the xr3m where no notching was required was when only 1/8" hardboard was used as a baffle.
> i should have thought of this when i sent you the dimensions on those speakers but a couple minutes with a dremmel sanding bit and you should be good to go.
> looking good so far, i can't wait to see the finished product and hear what you think of the speakers.


Got that covered man... My Dremel is my friend.  Should have my pillars done tomorrow... Won't be able to install them til Sunday night. I'll post more pics as things progress.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Looking good dude :thumbsup:. Can't wait to see these finished.

I'll be doing some pillars of my own in the near future. I always appreciate people taking the time to post pics of the build process.


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## vapor77 (Mar 12, 2011)

Looking good Fartin, I'm about to do the same thing in my STI with XR3M's as soon as my spare A Pillars arrive in the mail.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Matt,
What method did you use to position the speakers?
How did you hold them in place during the positioning process?
Any pics of this?
How about a few links to the Bing threads you referenced?
Pics of said stockings (before while you were still weaing them and after they were stretched of the rings)?
I am also curious how the jbl ms-8 reacts to the change for you.
Good luck with the finishing touches.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Matt.

They look good so far, especial for your first try

So where did you find the matching grille cloth

Thanks for sharing the pics


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> Matt.
> 
> They look good so far, especial for your first try
> 
> ...


Mark,
You going to keep that avatar pic?
It looks good on you. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Matt,
> What method did you use to position the speakers?
> How did you hold them in place during the positioning process?
> Any pics of this?
> ...


Hi Bret...

I positioned the speakers with towels behind them til they sounded balanced and the stage was as wide as possible. Sorry... Didn't take any pics of that. As for the stockings I just bought some that were made for big women  Gives you more to work with. After aiming them I went ahead and mounted the rings and glassed it. The bondo is drying now... I'll be sanding my butt off tomorrow.  Here is the link to Bing's Acura MDX install... Mine won't look as good as his but I'm hoping for good results.

Acura MDX OE Upgrade - Install Logs - Car Audio and Electronics

The Speakers... It's the tiniest mid I've ever used... looks more like a big tweeter. Very well built btw!









All mudded up... Going to let it dry overnight.









I know... I put it on a lil thick!  Thank god for electric sanders!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

BrittanyGulden said:


> Oh and btw, did you use your OEM A pillars? I used my OEM A pillars as templates/molds and made clones of them. That way when I sell the vehicle, I can put my OEM ones back in. Ha who wants to buy a vehicle with dremeled holes everywhere. Did the same thing with my kicks!


Oem pillars are easy to replace thanks to ebay.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> Matt.
> 
> They look good so far, especial for your first try
> 
> ...


Bought the grille cloth on ebay... There's a seller on there who sells some pretty good quality cloth in lots of colors. I get my cloth tomorrow... If it doesn't match as good as I want I'll use the headliner material that I bought prior to the grille cloth.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Looks good!
I know it's a lot of work, it just gets better and better!

I hate sanding!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

hmm i would love to hear this system, with those tweeters and mids its gonna be a really nice system, that's for sure. do you compete? im going to try to make it to MECA finals next year. yous should compete


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Mark,
> You going to keep that avatar pic?
> It looks good on you.
> 
> ...


Bret,

No longer then I have to 

Thanks for the compliment, I really appreciate it :laugh:

Looking forward to some sweet revenge next year 



PS... Going to the Stanford game next weekend


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> hmm i would love to hear this system, with those tweeters and mids its gonna be a really nice system, that's for sure. do you compete? im going to try to make it to MECA finals next year. yous should compete


No competing for me... This setup is for my own personal pleasure. I'm considering changing out my 900/5 and running Arc Audio... Then I might consider a lil competition.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

After around 2-3 hours of sanding they're ready to be covered!  *Note to self... Use less bondo next time*. Turning out great so far... These things are very solid. I'm going to line them with some clay and deadener before covering them. I should be done with these either this weekend or Monday. I'll keep updating the thread with my progress.


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## Blackandblu (Oct 2, 2011)

nice work


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Blackandblu said:


> nice work


Thank you sir.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Love these build threads. What do you have planned for crossover points on the XR3m and tweet? I didn't think tweeters were necessary for the Audible Physics widebanders.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

LOL, I was gonna say, you went a lil heavy on the mud


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

very nice. uhm why havn't you taken out the dowels at this point lol i had mine as soon as i had the cloth on and resined.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> Bret,
> 
> No longer then I have to
> 
> ...


You've got your hands full.
They're 6-0.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Matt,
Can you take a moment and answer my previous questions?
I would appreciate it.
BTW, they are coming out extremely well.
What are you going to do behind the speakers to stop wave cancellations?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Pick up a spare set of pillars from the wrecking yard. They're really not all that complicated... just time consuming! I'm hoping for some good results... I've used information from builds on here from Bing and others for reference... so far so good!


Looks like I'll be going to the wrecking yard in the near future to pick me up some spare parts. Pillars are starting to look good with all that sanding you've done. Can't wait to see the finished outcome of everything though.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> Love these build threads. What do you have planned for crossover points on the XR3m and tweet? I didn't think tweeters were necessary for the Audible Physics widebanders.


Probably going to go with the recommended 300-5000 or maybe 6000. The widebanders can handle frequencies up to 12-14k but I have the Morels so might as well use them! And the MT-23 is a fabulously smooth tweeter.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Matt,
> Can you take a moment and answer my previous questions?
> I would appreciate it.
> BTW, they are coming out extremely well.
> ...


I answered your previous questions on page 1  As for wave cancellations I plan on venting these down through the dash. I also have some dynaxorb pads that I'm going to cut to fit in side the pillar. Thanks for the compliment! I feel they're turning out nice to.  They're VERY solid and aimed perfectly imo.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> very nice. uhm why havn't you taken out the dowels at this point lol i had mine as soon as i had the cloth on and resined.


LOL... I was just going to leave them in... Doesn't hurt anything. I dunno, I might remove em.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> No competing for me... This setup is for my own personal pleasure. *I'm considering changing out my 900/5 and running Arc Audio... Then I might consider a lil competition.*


I don' geddit. :shrug:


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Knobby Digital said:


> I don' geddit. :shrug:


I mean that for now the system is for my own enjoyment. If I decide to go back with my old Arc audio amps which provide more clean power I would consider it. IMO my midbass drivers are a little underpowered at 100w each... and my sub at 500 watts needs a lil more as well. Considering going back to an Arc 4150XXK running mids and tweets, 2500xxk running midbass and another 2500XXK running the Ultimo. Then I'd be cooking with grease.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> LOL... I was just going to leave them in... Doesn't hurt anything. I dunno, I might remove em.


remove them, it's wasted air displacment, plus they can resonate, their are no gains for them being their unless your having trouble bonding the fiberglass to the pillar.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Starting over! I was listening to the XRs alone and I really like them by themselves. The Morels sound fantastic but using the XRs alone eliminates me having to add another amplifier and to be honest these damn windebanders sound incredible all by themselves. The pillars arent turning out as good as I wanted so I'm going to start over. I have 3/4 of my materials left so no biggie. I'm going to build them as close to Bing's pillars as I can. Here is Bing's work that I'm trying to emulate.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Even though I liked your progress I'm sure a second effort will be even better. Bing is a 
great example to follow, you couldn't pick much better IMHO. I would really like to get my 
hands on the blue material he uses for those rings, it really does make a super clean outcome. 
I think with some patience you'll get the results your looking for. Best thing about using these 
materials, no matter how badly you muck it up you can always turn it around.

Best of luck,
Scott


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

exceptional rebound friend! well done. as a fiber glasser my self i understand the time involved in something like pillars, and well done sir, well done indeed. i sitll would of gave them more air mass :\ 

could you tell us what you did their, what materials so forth. i'm very impressed, puts my work to shame  im gonna be starting my new pods...next weekend i hope i was playing with my false floor inm my trunk and i think that ones gonna be awhile haha, but pods i can wrap my head around. 

what type of cloth did you use, and wehre did you getting that banding you used around your speaker ring?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> exceptional rebound friend! well done. as a fiber glasser my self i understand the time involved in something like pillars, and well done sir, well done indeed. i sitll would of gave them more air mass :\
> 
> could you tell us what you did their, what materials so forth. i'm very impressed, puts my work to shame  im gonna be starting my new pods...next weekend i hope i was playing with my false floor inm my trunk and i think that ones gonna be awhile haha, but pods i can wrap my head around.
> 
> what type of cloth did you use, and wehre did you getting that banding you used around your speaker ring?


That's Bing's work above. I wish it was mine. I plan on folowing his build as a refernce on my next set.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> That's Bing's work above. I wish it was mine. I plan on folowing his build as a refernce on my next set.


haha i really should read more in posts :laugh: I thought that work looked really familuar, also thought it was odd you already had a set of extra pillars


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Just found a set of used pillars on Craigslist for $20 a pair! Going to go pick them up in a few... then it's back at square one. One thing that is good is that I've learned from a few of my mistakes. I'll post pics of my second set soon.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Just found a set of used pillars on Craigslist for $20 a pair! Going to go pick them up in a few... then it's back at square one. One thing that is good is that I've learned from a few of my mistakes. I'll post pics of my second set soon.


What do they cost from the dealer? I got a set for my Accord from the dealer for $20.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Just found a set of used pillars on Craigslist for $20 a pair! Going to go pick them up in a few... then it's back at square one. One thing that is good is that I've learned from a few of my mistakes. I'll post pics of my second set soon.


god damn. i spent like 100$ on my spare set :mean: than agian mine at 6 feet loing and my cars discontinued.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> god damn. i spent like 100$ on my spare set :mean: than agian mine at 6 feet loing and my cars discontinued.


Wow... 6ft long. sounds like a lot of sanding.  The lame part is that i picked them up and when removing them I cracked both of them!:mean: Thank god for super glue! They're solid again. No biggie because they'll be getting covered with resin and bondo. I'm really going to think these out this time... Not going to just build as I go.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Starting over! I was listening to the XRs alone and I really like them by themselves. The Morels sound fantastic but using the XRs alone eliminates me having to add another amplifier and to be honest these damn windebanders sound incredible all by themselves. The pillars arent turning out as good as I wanted so I'm going to start over. I have 3/4 of my materials left so no biggie. I'm going to build them as close to Bing's pillars as I can. Here is Bing's work that I'm trying to emulate.


Well, I was going to ask you how the XR3M and MT-23 combo sounded as I was going for a similar setup with the XR3M's and Xtant XT1's, (The XT1 are between the MT-22's and MT-23's) but now I know the answer. Great job on the old set though.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

narvarr said:


> Well, I was going to ask you how the XR3M and MT-23 combo sounded as I was going for a similar setup with the XR3M's and Xtant XT1's, (The XT1 are between the MT-22's and MT-23's) but now I know the answer. Great job on the old set though.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


I'm actually a little confused on what to do regarding the Morels and XR3m drivers. Part of me wants to go with the simplicity of running only the XR3ms but another part of me thinks that the top end may not be all that I hope for without the Morels. There is a 75% chance that I'll go ahead and use the MT23s. I'll let you know how things turn out.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

I am glad to hear you are happy with the XR 3's. I picked up some Trinity's and am hoping they perform similarly for me. I do plan on leaving tweeters in place, but am going to use my MS-8 power and will most likely cross them fairly high (6-8000+). I will be watching this build closely, as I spent my weekend fiberglassing my pillars.


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I'm actually a little confused on what to do regarding the Morels and XR3m drivers. Part of me wants to go with the simplicity of running only the XR3ms but another part of me thinks that the top end may not be all that I hope for without the Morels. There is a 75% chance that I'll go ahead and use the MT23s. I'll let you know how things turn out.


I would use the tweeters bro! Ambiance and shimmer....it just won't be as realistic without them. Cross them as high as you like but I would recommend starting at around 5K and work your way up! Not everyone hears above 16K but there are details there! 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> What do they cost from the dealer? I got a set for my Accord from the dealer for $20.


About 80 a piece.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> About 80 a piece.


Damn!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

SoundJunkie said:


> I would use the tweeters bro! Ambiance and shimmer....it just won't be as realistic without them. Cross them as high as you like but I would recommend starting at around 5K and work your way up! Not everyone hears above 16K but there are details there!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


You're right Erik... I will be using them. I picked up some low temperature plastic today to aid in building my new pillars... I just can't pass on using these MT23s! I'm really trying to use the right materials and take my time this second try at these. I always appreciate your feedback Erik... I'll keep you posted on how things are going.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

The supposed "low temp plastic" was f'n plexiglass! bastards convinced me it was something different. I ended up buying a pvc 3"-3.5" adapter and butchered it to get what I needed! The internal diameter is 3.5" exactly so my XR3m fell right into place. Took some time to get things right but I at least have my flushed baffles ready to go for tomorrow.





































Tomorrow I'll do some aiming and secure these to the pillars along with some small tweeter rings I'll be making. Glass will soon follow.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> The supposed "low temp plastic" was f'n plexiglass! bastards convinced me it was something different. I ended up buying a pvc 3"-3.5" adapter and butchered it to get what I needed! The internal diameter is 3.5" exactly so my XR3m fell right into place. Took some time to get things right but I at least have my flushed baffles ready to go for tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like this way better. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

man, maybe i should order like 10 sheets of Low heat and sell it off here LOL


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> man, maybe i should order like 10 sheets of Low heat and sell it off here LOL


Yeh maybe!  What did you use to secure your vinyl to the pillar Bing? CA glue?


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> man, maybe i should order like 10 sheets of Low heat and sell it off here LOL


LOL, I think you should. I know i'll be buying it from you haha.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i use DAP HHR top trim adhesive sprayed out of a gun:


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> i use DAP HHR top trim adhesive sprayed out of a gun:


Ohh... I wouldn't have access to something like that. I've heard that 3m Super Trim adhesive works well. I think i'm going to try it. Thanks for letting me know.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

I just did something very similar to you. I made a set of pillars and then scrapped them and made a new set that turned out amazing. Just a couple of tips that I learned. Try to use as thin of a material to create the counter-sink as possible. I used a strip of wood veneer. This lets you create smoother transitions since the driver mount is not as wide. Cut out as little from the pillar material as you can get away with to eliminate warping of the pillars and give them more strength. Cover as little area of the pillar with grill cloth and resin as you can, makes finishing way easier. And use as little bondo as you can, which makes finishing easier.

Also, if you need a good cement for vinyl, check for some barge brand cement. It supposedly doesn't hurt vinyl and sticks like crazy (then I used hot glue to hold the vinyl that was pulled over onto the back). And finally, I would suggest 4-way stretch vinyl. I used 2way for mine, and while I was able to wrap them without wrinkles, pulling the vinyl really tight the way it didn't stretch opened up some of the "cracks" in the vinyl to where they are very visible. So essentially I will have to re-wrap mine.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

ecbmxer said:


> I just did something very similar to you. I made a set of pillars and then scrapped them and made a new set that turned out amazing. Just a couple of tips that I learned. Try to use as thin of a material to create the counter-sink as possible. I used a strip of wood veneer. This lets you create smoother transitions since the driver mount is not as wide. Cut out as little from the pillar material as you can get away with to eliminate warping of the pillars and give them more strength. Cover as little area of the pillar with grill cloth and resin as you can, makes finishing way easier. And use as little bondo as you can, which makes finishing easier.
> 
> Also, if you need a good cement for vinyl, check for some barge brand cement. It supposedly doesn't hurt vinyl and sticks like crazy (then I used hot glue to hold the vinyl that was pulled over onto the back). And finally, I would suggest 4-way stretch vinyl. I used 2way for mine, and while I was able to wrap them without wrinkles, pulling the vinyl really tight the way it didn't stretch opened up some of the "cracks" in the vinyl to where they are very visible. So essentially I will have to re-wrap mine.


Thanks for sharing. Those sound like great tips.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Lowes----Counter top section
Wilsonart Contact Cement
get the 600 or 900

General trip adhesive wont hold up with vinyl under heat and humdity


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Lowes----Counter top section
Wilsonart Contact Cement
get the 600 or 900

General trip adhesive wont hold up with vinyl under heat and humidity


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Those are some great tips! thank you very much!


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> General trip adhesive wont hold up with vinyl under heat and humidity



X2...exactly right....try the counter top contact cement...good luck


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Glassed my second set of pillars. This time the rings are fantastic! The nice thick walls of the pvc are very solid and the glass sticks to it well. I even used pvc for the tweeter rings. I'm in the process of doing some trimming. Tomorrow I'll be putting a coat of bondo on them and letting it cure. Then I'll sand and cover em. Sure glad I decided on using the Morel MT23s... I probably would have regretted it later if I hadn't.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Glassed my second set of pillars. This time the rings are fantastic! The nice thick walls of the pvc are very solid and the glass sticks to it well. I even used pvc for the *tweeter rings*. I'm in the process of doing some trimming. Tomorrow I'll be putting a coat of bondo on them and letting it cure. Then I'll sand and cover em. Sure glad I decided on using the Morel MT23s... I probably would have regretted it later if I hadn't.


this confuses me...i was under the impression you were going wide band tweeterless?


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Glassed my second set of pillars. This time the rings are fantastic! The nice thick walls of the pvc are very solid and the glass sticks to it well. I even used pvc for the tweeter rings. I'm in the process of doing some trimming. Tomorrow I'll be putting a coat of bondo on them and letting it cure. Then I'll sand and cover em. Sure glad I decided on using the Morel MT23s... I probably would have regretted it later if I hadn't.


These set of pillars look great.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

m0sdef said:


> These set of pillars look great.


Thanks man. The pic you see is just of the pillars after the glass has cured... I'll be using bondo and sanding these babies smooth! Should look really nice after I finish. I'll be working on these tomorrow... Should be able to finish them up. I'll post pics once I'm done. Thanks again for the support.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> this confuses me...i was under the impression you were going wide band tweeterless?


I was but decided that I wanted to be sure to have the upper end shimmer. The Morels are fantastic tweeters and I didn't want to regret it later.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

wise choice my friend. pods do look great too. but those are gonna be a ***** to vinyl if that's what you still plan on though, that rear slope looks really steep but i can't tell if it's just how the shadows are working. if you have problems. i'ma PM you a little secrete method i used for mine


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

I Did some sanding and mudding today... Will recieve my flocking kit on Wednesday. With the contours of these pods I really don't feel like trying to vinyl them. Thanks for the tip Eviling, I appreciate it. I'll post pics next Thursday with my results.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I Did some sanding and mudding today... Will recieve my flocking kit on Wednesday. With the contours of these pods I really don't feel like trying to vinyl them. Thanks for the tip Eviling, I appreciate it. I'll post pics next Thursday with my results.


Flocking....practice, practice. practice before you decide to go live


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> Flocking....practice, practice. practice before you decide to go live


Will do sir.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

do NOT let bondo full cure before you sand...that will just take forever.

allow it to harden, and then start sanding, and you will take big chunks off at a time to smooth it out, and as it hardens, you sand finer and finer powder off of it for final sanding.

and dont cover it with too much bondo the first time, work in sections...

those shapes, doing it like that, you whould be able to knock out by hand in about 1.5 to 2 hours ready for upholstery.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> do NOT let bondo full cure before you sand...that will just take forever.
> 
> allow it to harden, and then start sanding, and you will take big chunks off at a time to smooth it out, and as it hardens, you sand finer and finer powder off of it for final sanding.
> 
> ...


Makes sense. The shapes I'm talking about is the slope under the mid. I tried grille cloth on my last set and I wasn't able to cover them effectively without getting wrinkles. I only waited an hour today then started sanding... and you're right! more came off and it was easier. I've been using an electric palm sander so it's not all that bad. What pissed me off is one of my pillars fell off the table and my bondo cracked in one area! :mean: I sanded it down to the glass then added a little more in that area then let it cure.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

trojan fan said:


> Flocking....practice, practice. practice before you decide to go live


haha that's what i told him. find something big with complicated curves, and flock it till you get it right. their is no tuching up flock :mean:


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## oldturd (Oct 31, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> do NOT let bondo full cure before you sand...that will just take forever.
> 
> allow it to harden, and then start sanding, and you will take big chunks off at a time to smooth it out, and as it hardens, you sand finer and finer powder off of it for final sanding.
> 
> ...


True. Let the filler flash first. You'll know it has flashed when the filler looses its sheen and starts to look matte. It also has a medium durometer (semi hard rubber) consistency. Once that happens use some body filler shaping tools to get the rough shape. The filler shaping tools look like small cheese graters. I bought a set from Select Products about 5 years ago when I was still installing but I'm sure you can find them elsewhere. I'll also alternate filler hardener colors to differentiate between coats. Helps me know if I've sanded too deep.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

you shouldnt be waiting an hour my man 

on a typical 75-80 degree day, i wait about 5 to 10 mins.

i dont use a grater unless its on a straight surface...on somethig like this i start with 60 grit, i find htat 40 grit will just put too many gashes into the material that later sanding may not get rid off.

anyway, here is how you can tell its ready for sanding:

1. it should be warm, not super hot, but just starting to flash like mentioned above.

2. when you take a sand paper to it, if it comes off in long skinny rolls and its too tacky to move the paper well, its NOT ready yet! if it comes off in big powders, like the kind of powder you get when you wait for it all night but just much bigger, like big snow flakes, and you see the shape dramatically change with just a few passes, its perfect...

3. sand all the filler you have to knock it down to close to where you need be, if you did this right by the time you have the top layer all knocked down, the filler has hardened enough that you can do fine sanding, i then go over with 80, and then 150....thats good enough for vinyl.

i too suggest just playing a bunch of filler on a test piece and try and perfect the technique before going onto the A pillars directly 

btw, i know some do a air da, but i dont trust it on something this small, so i sand all my pillars and kicks by hand only...


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## oldturd (Oct 31, 2009)

Bing,

Have you seen the shaping tools I'm referring to? They aren't the typical flat microplane type of body filler grater. Those are definitely for broad flatter surfaces. Select products used to sell them, not sure if they do anymore. I tried to get on their site but now they require a login just to view products. They look somewhat similar to http://www.thetoolworkshop.com/microplane3croundsnap-inblade32018.aspx. There was a flat tool, large arc tool, round tool and triangular tool. If you have access to the select products website you should check them out. They make rough shaping filler really fast. If I remember I'll take a pic of them when I get home.

Also Chicago Pneumatic makes a great small random orbital sander kit (model no CP7200S). It accepts hook and loop 2" and 3" pads and makes quick work of kicks, pillars and other small pieces.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> you shouldnt be waiting an hour my man
> 
> on a typical 75-80 degree day, i wait about 5 to 10 mins.
> 
> ...


It hit maybe 55 yesterday here in washington... I think the "flashing" would probably take more like 20-30 minutes. I see what you guys are getting at. Unfortunately I let the mud fully cure so sanding is a ***** at this point! I will use this advice on future projects so thank you.  As for the flocking I plan on practicing a lot before doing the job. I've recieved a lot of advice from the manufacturer as well as members on here and I truly appreciate it. Can't wait to finish these up! My friggin car has been in shambles for weeks!:mean: I also plan on removing my vapor barriers on my doors and going to town on some serious deadening of my doors! I figure I might as well do what needs to be done now. Can't wait to get it all together so I can clean my car inside and out and bring it back to the luxury car that it is! Feel like I'm driving a friggin hot mess at this point.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

If you need extra flocking, I have a kit that I didn't end up using. I'd let it go for cheaper than I paid for it. It's black nylon flock, with the applicator tube and adhesive.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> If you need extra flocking, I have a kit that I didn't end up using. I'd let it go for cheaper than I paid for it. It's black nylon flock, with the applicator tube and adhesive.


I appreciate the offer but I'll be using light gray flocking to match my interior. I'm sure someone on here would pick that up from you!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

dont even try to use the hand flocker unless you have like forearms of steel, get the airflocker, its a lil temperamental to use but without it, i couldnt have done the TL install. 

oldturd, i will check those out...in general i dont shape filler to anything, but just use it to smooth it out, but i think something like that can come in handy on bigger boxes and trim panels  thanks!

b


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> dont even try to use the hand flocker unless you have like forearms of steel, get the airflocker, its a lil temperamental to use but without it, i couldnt have done the TL install.
> 
> oldturd, i will check those out...in general i dont shape filler to anything, but just use it to smooth it out, but i think something like that can come in handy on bigger boxes and trim panels  thanks!
> 
> b


I do have some strong forearms from chronic masturbation but I'll check into that airflocker! I appreciate the help Bing. The lady told me that I should lean the pillars up against something and apply the flocking at a 90 degree angle. I'm doing a lot of research and watching videos... I'm going to learn as much as I can to try to get this right the first time! I get the kit on Wednesday... I have til then to figure chit out.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> dont even try to use the hand flocker unless you have like forearms of steel, get the airflocker, its a lil temperamental to use but without it, i couldnt have done the TL install.
> 
> oldturd, i will check those out...in general i dont shape filler to anything, but just use it to smooth it out, but i think something like that can come in handy on bigger boxes and trim panels  thanks!
> 
> b


really? I must have some pretty strong forwarms, i didn't even really break a sweat doing my pillars and my pillars were massive, 6' long each. :mean:

hey bing why have you never been in my build log? i see you all over but i don't think you've ever looked at mine  or at least posted. 




FartinInTheTub said:


> I do have some strong forearms from chronic masturbation but I'll check into that airflocker! I appreciate the help Bing. The lady told me that I should lean the pillars up against something and apply the flocking at a 90 degree angle. I'm doing a lot of research and watching videos... I'm going to learn as much as I can to try to get this right the first time! I get the kit on Wednesday... I have til then to figure chit out.



the air sprayer is on the site i linked you, but it's like 40$ I woudln't get it if thats all your doing, just do ONE pillar at a time. prep, set, finish, rinse repeat, dont try to do them both at the same time. the glue has a 10-15 min "useful" set time, so you have to be pretty snappy, i had balls of steel..i did mine with out even practicing. something i regret every time i look up in my car and see the edges of my pillar trim :'(

the biggest things when applying you must have a static envirment, wind = vury vury bad. you want no static charges around it, you want them to want to just land and stand up, and stack properly, otherwise you could end up with it looks like your grains switch directions in spots in em. i mean your powring dosing it so much,l you'll have os much over spray, also make sure you shake them once or tiwce while applying to get the stuff thats not sticking that looks like its sticking, otherwise when you do your final shake after their set in 48-72 hours, you'll see a baldish spot. but again, preperation is key, have a clean work area, tape plastic to your table to catch up your excess (to reuse  ) and just take your time and think it out, make sure you don't have to pee..because their are no breaks while applying..your house is on fire. its your house or your pillars...ya know.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> really? I must have some pretty strong forwarms, i didn't even really break a sweat doing my pillars and my pillars were massive, 6' long each. :mean:


Well, hopefully It's not too much work.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Made some progress today. Sanded these bad boys smooth and did some test fitting in my car. Can't wait til Wednesday so I can finish these up and tune my car.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Lookin good!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Mirage_Man said:


> Lookin good!


Thanks man!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

oh so you went off axis, hmm how'd that work out for ya? have you tried them in that newer smaller tube? im concearned your gonna run into a problem, even with a driver that doesn't need much, it seems a bit tight. 

also for you next project...don't bondo won't you don't have to  i only bondoed up 5 inches past my tweeter pod. roughly 1 inch passed the cloth i pulled.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> oh so you went off axis, hmm how'd that work out for ya? have you tried them in that newer smaller tube? im concearned your gonna run into a problem, even with a driver that doesn't need much, it seems a bit tight.
> 
> also for you next project...don't bondo won't you don't have to  i only bondoed up 5 inches past my tweeter pod. roughly 1 inch passed the cloth i pulled.


I had to glass the whole pillar... After removing the pillar material there was this white felt material that wouldnt come off... I figured glassing over it would be a better choice. As for the tube I assume you mean the PVC I used for the flush ring... I test fitted the speakers in them and they fit like a glove with just a minute amount of play which should come in handy after the flocking. As for the offaxis comment, yes! off-axis is the way to go with the XR3m drivers! I'm around 60 degrees off axis which was recommended by Bing for these particular drivers. I also listened to them and agreed on the 60 degrees judgement. The Morels are also off axis and they sound great that way. The depth on the XRs is a mere 1.75" so depth is not a factor. Can't wait to get this over with and clean up my garage! looks like a disaster zone in there.


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Made some progress today. Sanded these bad boys smooth and did some test fitting in my car. Can't wait til Wednesday so I can finish these up and tune my car.



Looking at this picture reminded me of something else.....get yourself a dashmat!!

I have Dash Topper....love it!! Cuts way down on the reflections off the dashboard. Probably cost you between $50-60 and worth every penny!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

SoundJunkie said:


> Looking at this picture reminded me of something else.....get yourself a dashmat!!
> 
> I have Dash Topper....love it!! Cuts way down on the reflections off the dashboard. Probably cost you between $50-60 and worth every penny!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Will do! Thanks for the advice Erik!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Will do! Thanks for the advice Erik!


omg yes! let me guide you young one! little surprise too, you can see my flocked mid pod sparckle in he sun 

this is from dashmat.com its their high end LTD or LDT idk something like that, its a great mat...don't get why its more expensive, i liked the look but the material feels cheaper to me  i just didn't want suede.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> omg yes! let me guide you young one! little surprise too, you can see my flocked mid pod sparckle in he sun
> 
> this is from dashmat.com its their high end LTD or LDT idk something like that, its a great mat...don't get why its more expensive, i liked the look but the material feels cheaper to me  i just didn't want suede.


Man... A pair of Scanspeak D3004s would drop right into those pods and change your whole frontstage.  I've heard the tweeters you're running and they are nice and smooth but if you upgraded to some Scans I truly feel you'd be trippin on the difference.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

really because the scans are 61 mm and the SB;'s are 72, thats a half inch difference O_O 

but nah, havn't you seen the gear i already have? Hybrid L1R2, L4SE, L8V1,s...i think my l1R2's will piss all over them scans  but yeah the scans are nice tweets. don't think they'd do as well on the axis i have them on.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Ordered a dashmat made by Coverking... $35 shipped total from Partsbin.com. Should have it next week sometime.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

really? mine took like a month to make :\ damn should of ordered from them.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> really? mine took like a month to make :\ damn should of ordered from them.


Yours has a monogram... Mine's just the mat. I actually don't like the look of dashmats but if it's going to help with SQ I'm in!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> really because the scans are 61 mm and the SB;'s are 72, thats a half inch difference O_O
> 
> but nah, havn't you seen the gear i already have? Hybrid L1R2, L4SE, L8V1,s...i think my l1R2's will piss all over them scans  but yeah the scans are nice tweets. don't think they'd do as well on the axis i have them on.


I don't necessarily believe that they will piss all over the scans  I've heard the L1R2... It has surprising off axis resonse but in terms of detail and all around performance I'd put it on par with the Scan Illuminator rings that I just sold. Those rings were unbelievable. But yeh, I saw the pics of the new gear you had... Why haven't you installed it? Would love to see it installed and get your take on how it sounds.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I don't necessarily believe that they will piss all over the scans  I've heard the L1R2... It has surprising off axis resonse but in terms of detail and all around performance I'd put it on par with the Scan Illuminator rings that I just sold. Those rings were unbelievable. But yeh, I saw the pics of the new gear you had... Why haven't you installed it? Would love to see it installed and get your take on how it sounds.


so would i  in fact it all sits right behind me now...uninstalled., i also have an alpine H701 ariving in the mail any second now...and even that wont go in for another week or two even thoughh its a swap out for an ms-8. i work full time and go to school full time....today i have off...but of course it's ****ing snowing :mean:I got my L8V1's in last week so their in..but my door panels have been off for 2 weeks now and they won't be finished for awhile either, hopfuly next weekend i'll be all caught up with home work and papers and **** *sigh*

if i wwere to go with any other tweeters aside from the R2's though, i think I'd have to go with the DLS Scandinavia's. 

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_26249_DLS-Scandinavia-1.html


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Packed the inside with nonhardening clay to reduce resonance. I also packed the cavity where the tweeter is as well, it just wasn't done in this pic. These pillars are quite a bit heavier now  . I will also be adding a couple layers of Damplifier to the back of the pillar.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Some more deadening. The inside of the pillars have been packed with modeling clay and the backs have a layer of Damplifier to reduce any resonances.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

how do they sound?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> how do they sound?


I've only listened to them sitting on my dash with towels behind them but the speakers sound great. As for the pillars I won't know that til I install them with the speakers. I get the flocking kit on Wednesday and probably won't install them in my car til Friday night at the earliest so I can let em dry. Might even be saturday before they get installed... I want to make sure they are good and dry.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

well before you finish them...make sure they sound good  only one less step to do over if they don't sound good! i would of had a listen by the time the first fiberglass layer was on.


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## suzi427 (Oct 6, 2011)

lookin good so far! sure it'll sound great!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> well before you finish them...make sure they sound good  only one less step to do over if they don't sound good! i would of had a listen by the time the first fiberglass layer was on.


I positioned the mids exactly at the angle as they are in the pillar pods and they sounded great! also used velcro with the tweets and positioned them for a listen. I'm pretty confident that I have these right where I want them.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

suzi427 said:


> lookin good so far! sure it'll sound great!


I think it will! Thanks man! :thumbsup:


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I positioned the mids exactly at the angle as they are in the pillar pods and they sounded great! also used velcro with the tweets and positioned them for a listen. I'm pretty confident that I have these right where I want them.


I don't think your understanding my concearns...air volume is my concern. i have no idea how much those audio physics want, are they 4's or 3's?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> I don't think your understanding my concearns...air volume is my concern. i have no idea how much those audio physics want, are they 4's or 3's?


They are 3s. And you must be thinking that my pods are sealed... from the pics you can see that the back is open. These are infinite baffle which I assumes was how you are running yours. The pods will be vented down through the dash. This way airspace is not a concern. Bing's MDX install with these was installed the same way.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> They are 3s. And you must be thinking that my pods are sealed... from the pics you can see that the back is open. These are infinite baffle which I assumes was how you are running yours. The pods will be vented down through the dash. This way airspace is not a concern. Bing's MDX install with these was installed the same way.


well i made no attempt to seal mine, but they aren't true IB by any means. the imediate air needs to have enough expansion room, even if their technicly is enough room they still be choked. trust me on this. :mean:

i mean you'rs look ..iffy but my gut says they'll be fine, especially since thier 3's. BUT that puddy might be your undoing, trim out as much as you can if you sinsist on that,but i deadened the walls of my pods with cat hair fiberglass, it's very strong, very dense, so you don't need as much as you would with something like clay. I'd even use the sound deadening tiles over that clay inside the walls.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> well i made no attempt to seal mine, but they aren't true IB by any means. the imediate air needs to have enough expansion room, even if their technicly is enough room they still be choked. trust me on this. :mean:
> 
> i mean you'rs look ..iffy but my gut says they'll be fine, especially since thier 3's. BUT that puddy might be your undoing, trim out as much as you can if you sinsist on that,but i deadened the walls of my pods with cat hair fiberglass, it's very strong, very dense, so you don't need as much as you would with something like clay. I'd even use the sound deadening tiles over that clay inside the walls.


My rings are chamferred, The interior of my pods were also strengthened with the milkshake (cat hair fibers) you mentioned... The milkshake isn't for deadening.. It's for strength. The Nonhardening clay is to deaden the pods to reduce resonance. MANY pros including Bing (whom I referenced for this build) use nonhardening clay inside their pillars to reduce resonances. I'm taking every precaution and doing these the right way. I've had tons of advice on these from not only Bing but SQ champions... I feel pretty confident that they're going as planned. I truly appreciate your advice and I'll keep it in mind.* Here's Bing's pillars which are VERY similar in size and structure as mine*. He has the clay installed exactly how I do and has the back open exactly how I do... He's one of the best installer/builders on this site and I trust his judgement and his abilities. Again I truly appreciate your advice on this project and I by no means want to seem ungrateful... I'm just pretty confident that I'm taking the right steps to make this successful.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

just a few quick notes here 

1. the clay i use is NOT for reinforcement, or strength or rigidity. its there becuase i have found that it is a better resonance killer than just vibration damper alone. I do also put a layer of vibration damper above the clay to add some more mass to it and also to help hold the stuff in place on hotter days.

so it goes, outside mold, inside reinforcement with duraglass (kitty hair basically) and resin, then clay, then damper.

2. Do the APs want an enclosure, well, i cant say how much better they will sound with an enclosure in place, but the two cars i have done with them, both are just pretty much free air, in pillars and in dash, and when we played full range pink noise through them and put it on a dual mic RTA, in both cases, the natural extension in the car was nicely down to 150hz...again cant comment on just how much better they will be with an enclosure, but i dont see them suffering much at all in just a normal free air environment in a pillar mount and/or dash mount. i think having a true sealed enclosure in a pillar is kind of diffcult, if not impossible to achieve to the right size without havint o hack up a few things, such as a dash to extend the enclosure downward.

3. yeah i did quite a few small things with the hand flocker...but seriously, once you use the airflocker, i dont see how you can go back. i would say i can flock this entire two pillars in about 2-3 minutes with the airflocker, versus what...10 mins or more and two sore arms by hand? and ensure much better and even coverage throughout.  it doesnt require a big compressor and works at very low PSI. btw, when i mentioned the TL, you have to realize that one i flocked around 20 pieces, including several thast about 2.5' x 4' flat surface.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

eviling said:


> hey bing why have you never been in my build log? i see you all over but i don't think you've ever looked at mine  or at least posted.


I am all over?  I think i hardly ever have time to look at much on the forum...when you do it day in and day out, sometimes when you have some time off, you just wanna stare at something else 

I think i maybe look at 1 - 2 builds on here that the installers havent PMed me to check out or are cars that i have done before or may do in the near future  Or something in the title of the thread caught my eye like NO CHINA STEREO haha 

but now that you mention it, i will go check it out for sure.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> I am all over?  I think i hardly ever have time to look at much on the forum...when you do it day in and day out, sometimes when you have some time off, you just wanna stare at something else
> 
> I think i maybe look at 1 - 2 builds on here that the installers havent PMed me to check out or are cars that i have done before or may do in the near future  Or something in the title of the thread caught my eye like NO CHINA STEREO haha
> 
> but now that you mention it, i will go check it out for sure.


haha thanks. the new log doesn't show to much, but the old origonal log is around somwhere if you're in for some seriouse up's and downs. but I'd love your opinion on the final direction my stuff is going  i just decided to go with ZED amps and in the process of obtaining those. I realllllllllllllly don't know what to do about using the L4se's in my car, i wanna try and get them in kicks but i have kick break, so i might put them in the tire well corner of the floor, or up on the wall at the bend if theirs enough room but idk how much room is their :\ 

SORRY! BACK ON TOPIC!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

btw guys, just wanna again reinforce that i myself arent some kind of SQ guru, and the way i do things are definitely not meant to be used as some kind of standard  I just do things the way that i learned how that best fit my limited skill set and equipment...if i had a full blown shop with all the gear and room, there are quite a few things i would do differently... 

and when it comes to SQ, always keep in mind that for me, and the clientele that i mostly deal with (not hardcore sq people or diyma members), cosmetics will always come before pure SQ...meaning very rarely will i do a full on axis setup even if perhaps sq wise, its the best way to go...

sometimes, rumors can start about something like this even when i havent made a single comment about me being knowledgable in SQ...so i wanna quash this right here and now...

ALWAYS listen with your own ears and judge with your own eyes...to see what kind of install and what kind of setup works best for you interms of SQ...i have already made my determination on what to sacrifice and what to compromise when it comes to most installs...make sure you do as well...on your own terms


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

eviling said:


> haha thanks. the new log doesn't show to much, but the old origonal log is around somwhere if you're in for some seriouse up's and downs. but I'd love your opinion on the final direction my stuff is going  i just decided to go with ZED amps and in the process of obtaining those. I realllllllllllllly don't know what to do about using the L4se's in my car, i wanna try and get them in kicks but i have kick break, so i might put them in the tire well corner of the floor, or up on the wall at the bend if theirs enough room but idk how much room is their :\
> 
> SORRY! BACK ON TOPIC!


will check em out tomorrow.

sometimes, after 8 or 9 hours of working in a car, tired, hungry and cold, its a bit tough opening diyma and emails and see about 15 questions from peeps asking for advice and wanting me to check out their decision...i try to answer all of them within three days, but sometimes, just hard to find the hours after work to do it all  but i think anyone who has PMed me on DIYMA has basically heard back from me in a timely manner


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

As always you are modest Bing. I've spent years installing my own gear and witnessing nice installs and custom jobs and you are one of the best installers I've seen. You seem to be a jack of all trades when it comes to building/installing. I apologize if using your pillars as a reference made you feel wierd... I just like your work and really liked how yours turned out. I figured that I have very limited experience building pillars so why not reference someone who makes it look easy. I appreciate your build logs and I'm sure many others do to. Thanks for sharing and passing on some knowledge to some of us that are constantly learning.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Got the pillars flocked today! It's actually a VERY easy process. Bing's right about the forearm pain... After pumping that damn can for 5 minutes you feel it a little. I'm pretty happy that the color of the flocking is almost dead on to my oem color. I wish I would have smoothed things out a little better before flocking but I am very happy with the results. Now to wait 48-72 hours for them to fully dry:mean: Not bad for my first pillar build! :crowngrin:


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## suzi427 (Oct 6, 2011)

dumb question but i'm not familiar with the term flocked?


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Got the pillars flocked today! It's actually a VERY easy process. Bing's right about the forearm pain... After pumping that damn can for 5 minutes you feel it a little. I'm pretty happy that the color of the flocking is almost dead on to my oem color. I wish I would have smoothed things out a little better before flocking but I am very happy with the results. Now to wait 48-72 hours for them to fully dry:mean: Not bad for my first pillar build! :crowngrin:


Damn Matt those are gorgeous! :surprised:

I'm so jealous.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

suzi427 said:


> dumb question but i'm not familiar with the term flocked?


It's a process of laying down a layer of glue then applying nylon fibers to build up a nice upholstered look.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Damn Matt those are gorgeous! :surprised:
> 
> I'm so jealous.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir! Can't wait for them to dry so I can install the drivers! Have to wait til late next week for my JL 300/2 to show up which sucks. It'll be 150x2 from the 300/2 to my Dyn midbass, 100x4 and 500x1 from the 900/5 to my pillars and Ultimo! I have high hopes.


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## suzi427 (Oct 6, 2011)

FartinInTheTub said:


> It's a process of laying down a layer of glue them applying nylon fibers to build up a nice upholstered look.


nice thanks, i will have to search for a write up on this


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Thank you sir! Can't wait for them to dry so I can install the drivers! Have to wait til late next week for my JL 300/2 to show up which sucks. It'll be 150x2 from the 300/2 to my Dyn midbass on my midbass, 100x4 and 500x1 from the 900/5 to my pillars and Ultimo! I have high hopes.


I can't stop looking them over.
BTW, I can't find a single flaw.

Is the JL300/2 the replacement for the A300.2?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I can't stop looking them over.
> BTW, I can't find a single flaw.
> 
> Is the JL300/2 the replacement for the A300.2?
> ...


They look great but could have smoothed out the transitions a little more so it flowed better. I'll be making some press fit grilles as well. I've been running a 900/5 for a while with my 2-way frontstage and sub.. but now I've moved to a 3-way frontstage and needed a few more channels. The 300/2 should power my Dyn MW160s nicely. Thanks again for the compliments, I appreciate it.


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Nice work man! I'm itching to get my tweeters in my a-pillars now, but really i should wait untill i've decided if i'm upgrading or not.

Gav


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

GavGT said:


> Nice work man! I'm itching to get my tweeters in my a-pillars now, but really i should wait untill i've decided if i'm upgrading or not.
> 
> Gav


Thanks!


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Got the pillars flocked today! It's actually a VERY easy process. Bing's right about the forearm pain... After pumping that damn can for 5 minutes you feel it a little. I'm pretty happy that the color of the flocking is almost dead on to my oem color. I wish I would have smoothed things out a little better before flocking but I am very happy with the results. Now to wait 48-72 hours for them to fully dry:mean: Not bad for my first pillar build! :crowngrin:


I really don't see any transitional issues in the pics.

Looks like all that whacking the weasel paid off. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I really don't see any transitional issues in the pics.
> 
> Looks like all that whacking the weasel paid off.
> 
> ...


Indeed my many hours of flogging the dolphin paid off.


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## 12voltguy (Oct 5, 2011)

suzi427 said:


> nice thanks, i will have to search for a write up on this


search you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFjorzlI3k
I found the process & when I read hear it was hard on the arms I thought I found wrong thing,LOL

now I understand


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

12voltguy said:


> search you tube
> How to Apply Flocking - YouTube
> I found the process & when I read hear it was hard on the arms I thought I found wrong thing,LOL
> 
> now I understand


I watched that video... along with 3-4 others. I really like flocking! There can be some very cool uses in car audio. I can remember building amp racks that would have benefited from having the inside coated with flocking. I'll be using this more in the future for my projects.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

amazing job mate! way better than my first flocking, as you so pointed on in my build XD but damn man, that looks great, that color is nice too, i really like it. i assume they sent you a tan or white glue rather than the black glue I reclieved for my black flocking.


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## Blackandblu (Oct 2, 2011)

Damn your a hell of a little flocker  amazing job 

where'd you get your XR3 ?


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

Blackandblu said:


> Damn your a hell of a little flocker  amazing job
> 
> where'd you get your XR3 ?


who you calling little? :laugh: and if i recall he picked them up in the classafieds.


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## boogeyman (Jul 1, 2008)

nice job. By the way I seen that video also.


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Got the pillars flocked today! It's actually a VERY easy process. Bing's right about the forearm pain... After pumping that damn can for 5 minutes you feel it a little. I'm pretty happy that the color of the flocking is almost dead on to my oem color. I wish I would have smoothed things out a little better before flocking but I am very happy with the results. Now to wait 48-72 hours for them to fully dry:mean: Not bad for my first pillar build! :crowngrin:


Those look awesome for your first pillar build!


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## vapor77 (Mar 12, 2011)

Very impressive, cant wait to see the drivers mounted and the pillars in the car. I need this kind of inspiration to do my XR3M pillar build.


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## oldturd (Oct 31, 2009)

If they sound half as good as they look, you're going to be one happy camper. Great job!


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Very nice Bud! Looking forward to seeing them mounted with the drivers in and your impression of how they sound.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

I have a quick question concerning what you said about aiming your drivers: "off-axis is the way to go with the XR3m drivers! I'm around 60 degrees off axis."
Your pic looks like your drivers are slightly angled toward the windshield, and away from the occupants? Can you verify? I am modeling \ positioning my speakers and am worried that reflections from the windshield might cause issues? Can you elaborate more in your scenario? My first set of pillars didnt go so well, so now I am looking at repositioning and re-fiberglassing again (sound familiar?). Your system is similar in ways to my own (ms-8, JL amp, H-audio widebanders, and separate tweet in pillars). Just wondering if my eyes are playing tricks on me (your pics) or just how your mids are pointed? Many thanks in advance.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Lorin said:


> I have a quick question concerning what you said about aiming your drivers: "off-axis is the way to go with the XR3m drivers! I'm around 60 degrees off axis."
> Your pic looks like your drivers are slightly angled toward the windshield, and away from the occupants? Can you verify? I am modeling \ positioning my speakers and am worried that reflections from the windshield might cause issues? Can you elaborate more in your scenario? My first set of pillars didnt go so well, so now I am looking at repositioning and re-fiberglassing again (sound familiar?). Your system is similar in ways to my own (ms-8, JL amp, H-audio widebanders, and separate tweet in pillars). Just wondering if my eyes are playing tricks on me (your pics) or just how your mids are pointed? Many thanks in advance.


Your eyes are definately deceiving you... The drivers are mounted so they are maybe 15 degrees towards you from straight across at one another. tweeters are pretty much straight across at one another.  I'll post better pics in a few days when the drivers and pillars are mounted.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

DRY!!!! DRY!!!! I hate staring at those things waiting for them to dry! 

A few more days and they should be completely cured. Damn I'm impatient! :mean:


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> amazing job mate! way better than my first flocking, as you so pointed on in my build XD but damn man, that looks great, that color is nice too, i really like it. i assume they sent you a tan or white glue rather than the black glue I reclieved for my black flocking.


Thanks! Yeh... They sent me a gray glue. She sends colormatched glue for every color so if coverage isn't as good in one area it wont show through.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

with that positioning and with the mid that low, does your instrument cluster block the drivers side sound at all? Looking forward to your pics after you install.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Lorin said:


> with that positioning and with the mid that low, does your instrument cluster block the drivers side sound at all? Looking forward to your pics after you install.


Might block a little... but what you cant see in the pics is that not only are they facing a little away from straight across, they are also angled upward a little. I have a dashmat on the way that should also help with reflections n such.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Excellent job on your pillars!
I am really anxious to see them, installed in the bimmer


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Pillars look great man! Can't wait for some installed shots. Put some ensolite or foam on the backside attachment points to make sure you don't get any rattles once they are in. I did that for my first set that I had primed and it helped with squeaks against the dash. I assume they clip in?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> Pillars look great man! Can't wait for some installed shots. Put some ensolite or foam on the backside attachment points to make sure you don't get any rattles once they are in. I did that for my first set that I had primed and it helped with squeaks against the dash. I assume they clip in?


Actually they clip in but also screw in at the top! shouldn't be an issue. I appreciate the pointer though


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

you can installl them 24 after if your gentle i installed mine earllyi couldnt wait lol


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

eviling said:


> you can installl them 24 after if your gentle i installed mine earllyi couldnt wait lol


Ok, that was just mean.
He's already climbing the walls. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Ok, that was just mean.
> He's already climbing the walls.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Not gonna chance it... Thats how you mess up the finish. I'll exercise patience. I'll wait til Sunday evening... That'll be 4 days so they'll be good and dry.


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Not gonna chance it... Thats how you mess up the finish. I'll exercise patience. I'll wait til Sunday evening... That'll be 4 days so they'll be good and dry.


Patience.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

patience??? 
I admire that in someone else.


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## bolo1g2 (Oct 24, 2011)

Nice job on the pillars. I tried to pm you back the other day fart but I can't is there another way to get a hold of you? I'm interested in talking install in my Tahoe.


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## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

thats a really great job for your first time, makes me want to experiment with flocking!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

bolo1g2 said:


> Nice job on the pillars. I tried to pm you back the other day fart but I can't is there another way to get a hold of you? I'm interested in talking install in my Tahoe.


pm sent


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Did a little work... Didn't want to mess them up so just installed the mids. painted the Morel hardware gray to blend in with the pillar. I'm going to give them a few more days to dry before I install them  Don't mind the gold screws... It's all I had that small.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

are you covering the mids as well or just the tweets?
curious, as I have yet to source a grill for my 3 inch widebanders yet.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Lorin said:


> are you covering the mids as well or just the tweets?
> curious, as I have yet to source a grill for my 3 inch widebanders yet.


I have some color matched grill cloth. I'll cut a small mdf ring then wrap it with grille cloth for a press on grille.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Almost ready to install! Just need to make the press on grilles and give em a few more days to fully cure. I like the way the tweeter hardware turned out.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Almost ready to install! Just need to make the press on grilles and give em a few more days to fully cure. I like the way the tweeter hardware turned out.


These just keep getting better and better!

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> These just keep getting better and better!
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Thank you sir!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

holy ****, those morel baffles just bring it home, those things are beautiful! i know i'm the one who told you about the flocking but did you have to show me up so badly 

ohhhh and I knew you couldn't wait till sunday  72 hours it the longest HANDLING cure time, but technicaly 48 hour's should be enough in a heated room, looks like you've been doing all this work inside something. but I left mine out in the boiling sun back before the weather started it's period, they felt cured enough to handle at a day and a half. takes a good week before the glue cures like rock, once their that cured, any chance of rubbing off any of the flocking is pretty much gone.

personaly, the grills on mine..i never liked mine, i do em more theft protection, if you can't see what it is, it is my belief your slightly less inclined to take it  granted my 1200$ deck isn't helping that situation. but the point is, those looks good with out em, when i first put mine in, i had no grills for maybe 2 months, than i put em in and it felt very strange for awhile yours look better ungrilled than even mine, i woudln't put em in, i think those mid's deserve a show anyways  plus, the grills so technicaly baffle your drivers changing how they play slightly..i mean i played with mine for like 40 mins on and off and heard no discernible difference. but the 10f's don't really have any issues with it, and even my hybrid L3's liked my pods. the L3's stage width size play better than the 10f's though. those drivers you have probobly have as wide of a playing area as the L3's really wish i could get a listen  ever on the ease coast?


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Almost ready to install! Just need to make the press on grilles and give em a few more days to fully cure. I like the way the tweeter hardware turned out.



Like a kid waiting for Christmas!! Great job man! I am sure you will be happy with the final product! Best of all, free stage height!! Let me know if you have any tuning anomalies with the MS8. When I had my pillars in the FJ I had to adjust my head position during calibration in order to achieve a proper center image and stage width. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> holy ****, those morel baffles just bring it home, those things are beautiful! i know i'm the one who told you about the flocking but did you have to show me up so badly
> 
> ohhhh and I knew you couldn't wait till sunday  72 hours it the longest HANDLING cure time, but technicaly 48 hour's should be enough in a heated room, looks like you've been doing all this work inside something. but I left mine out in the boiling sun back before the weather started it's period, they felt cured enough to handle at a day and a half. takes a good week before the glue cures like rock, once their that cured, any chance of rubbing off any of the flocking is pretty much gone.
> 
> personaly, the grills on mine..i never liked mine, i do em more theft protection, if you can't see what it is, it is my belief your slightly less inclined to take it  granted my 1200$ deck isn't helping that situation. but the point is, those looks good with out em, when i first put mine in, i had no grills for maybe 2 months, than i put em in and it felt very strange for awhile yours look better ungrilled than even mine, i woudln't put em in, i think those mid's deserve a show anyways  plus, the grills so technicaly baffle your drivers changing how they play slightly..i mean i played with mine for like 40 mins on and off and heard no discernible difference. but the 10f's don't really have any issues with it, and even my hybrid L3's liked my pods. the L3's stage width size play better than the 10f's though. those drivers you have probobly have as wide of a playing area as the L3's really wish i could get a listen  ever on the ease coast?


I appreciate the suggestion on flocking!  Don't be so hard on yourself, yours look great. I also like the way the Morel mounting hardware turned out! I couldn't even consider leaving it black, it looks MUCH better this way. I purchased acoustically transparent grille cloth so I'm hoping there is no discernable difference. Now I have to decide whether to use the JL 300/2 on my midbass or use a Soundstream D200 on my Morel tweeters... decisions decisions. Either way my soundstage should improve drastically. I'll probably run the wires down from my dash today and just put these in. I can't install the amp and get things running yet... I have my son for the weekend and despite how impatient I am with these pillars my son comes first. Thanks again for the compliments... I'll be updating soon.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

SoundJunkie said:


> Like a kid waiting for Christmas!! Great job man! I am sure you will be happy with the final product! Best of all, free stage height!! Let me know if you have any tuning anomalies with the MS8. When I had my pillars in the FJ I had to adjust my head position during calibration in order to achieve a proper center image and stage width.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Thanks Erik! I'll update you on the soundstage and if I have any issues. Should have these running like a champ by Monday.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

The grills will finish off those mids nicely. If they are like mine, than they will fit perfectly flush with the recess you have and really give the pillars a smooth look. Especially with your nicely color matched tweets.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is they look friggin awesome in the car! The bad news is that somewhere between the milkshake and putty my drivers side pillar ring shifted. The passengar side is money but the drivers is angled not only straight across but tilted a little towards the windshield. I will be rebuilding the drivers side panel which REALLY sucks! but oh well, you live and you learn. Man those Morels sound good! Sorry to make the build last a little longer but I need to get this right! Good thing is that I have plenty of resin and flocking left over so it won't cost me anything other than my time and another drivers a-pillar. I'll keep you posted. below you can see how well they integrate and also how the angle on the driver's side differs from the passengar.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

this is why you check before you finish!  you gatta mock up! no matter how confident you are, at every possible stage.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

I might just rebuild them both and go more on axis... Would also like the tweeters a little more on axis. With all the materials and everything... should take less than a week. we'll see. It's a shame because they look fantastic!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

I really like these pillars. Can you explain the wooden parts, sorry 
I'm a little thick and don't get things that often.......


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I really like these pillars. Can you explain the wooden parts, sorry
> I'm a little thick and don't get things that often.......


I'm not sure what you mean by wooden parts. The mdf rings were mounted inside pvc flush rings for the woofers. pvc end caps were cut to make rings for the tweeters. I screwed up and the drivers side pillar is angled wrong. I think I'll just go ahead and rebuild them now that I know what I'm doing. I could probably have them ready for flocking in 24 hours... then it would be a few days for them to cure. So 3 days and I'd have a new pair. I'm picking up a used set of pillars on Monday from the junkyard then it's back to square one. It's a shame though... these look sooo good. The new ones will look the same just angled properly.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

Thank you for the pictures, the one through the windshield really allows me to see the angles, etc.. That said, you mentioned changing to more on axis? What do you feel is missing or needs to change? The pods look very good btw.
As to the wooden parts, maybe he is referring to the phase plug on the xr3?


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by wooden parts. The mdf rings were mounted inside pvc flush rings for the woofers. pvc end caps were cut to make rings for the tweeters. I screwed up and the drivers side pillar is angled wrong. I think I'll just go ahead and rebuild them now that I know what I'm doing. I could probably have them ready for flocking in 24 hours... then it would be a few days for them to cure. So 3 days and I'd have a new pair. I'm picking up a used set of pillars on Monday from the junkyard then it's back to square one. It's a shame though... these look sooo good. The new ones will look the same just angled properly.


he either means the rings or the fake wood finish on the phase plug. that'd be my guess..


i can't believe you're starting over! >_< i mean i barley had that motivation to do my second set of pillar pods, idk how you're getting through!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> he either means the rings or the fake wood finish on the phase plug. that'd be my guess..
> 
> 
> i can't believe you're starting over! >_< i mean i barley had that motivation to do my second set of pillar pods, idk how you're getting through!


Oh... I see. BTW I think that the phase plug is real wood. I hope so considering these are $550 retail speakers.  I picked up a set of used pillars today from the wrecking yard. Should have these ready for flocking by tomorrow. I'm using abs for the rings this time... The pvc adapters I used last time were $5.50 a piece... I'm using one abs coupling this time to make two rings... total cost $2.10.  It's the same thickness and will work perfectly. Should have these installed and ready to rock within 3-4 days. I'll update the thread with my final install of these.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Try to sell the current one to recover a few bucks  

Kelvin


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Oh... I see. BTW I think that the phase plug is real wood. I hope so considering these are $550 retail speakers.  I picked up a set of used pillars today from the wrecking yard. Should have these ready for flocking by tomorrow. I'm using abs for the rings this time... The pvc adapters I used last time were $5.50 a piece... I'm using one abs coupling this time to make two rings... total cost $2.10.  It's the same thickness and will work perfectly. Should have these installed and ready to rock within 3-4 days. I'll update the thread with my final install of these.


They are SOLID Rosewood plugs used to help dissipate the resonance that is common in metal phase plugs.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> They are SOLID Rosewood plugs used to help dissipate the resonance that is common in metal phase plugs.


Thank you sir for clarifying that!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Thank you sir for clarifying that!


No problem, I would hate for some clown who knew nothing about them to give the wrong information. That happens way to much around here as it is...


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> Try to sell the current one to recover a few bucks
> 
> Kelvin


I considered that but they are staged wrong so I couldn't do that to someone. I'd give em away to someone with an E39 if they paid shipping. I think they look damn good for a novice like myself! My next ones should sound friggin killer! No screwups this time.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Dont be afraid to put the XR3's in an enclosure since you are pairing them up with a tweeter. A .6L enclosure will give you the ability to cross them over at about 250hz without them ever breaking a sweat.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> Dont be afraid to put the XR3's in an enclosure since you are pairing them up with a tweeter. A .6L enclosure will give you the ability to cross them over at about 250hz without them ever breaking a sweat.


I'd like to but I just dont have the room. :worried: I'm going to consider that as I'm building this set of pillars. I might try to achieve a hollow chamber half way up the pillar to create a small sealed chamber. If this ends up being too difficult they will be infinite baffle. Thank you for the advice I really appreciate it.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Not a problem, if you have any questions feel free to hit me up, I rode an AP/H-Audio front stage to a MECA Finals Championship.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> Not a problem, if you have any questions feel free to hit me up, I rode an AP/H-Audio front stage to a MECA Finals Championship.


Wow! Very impressive! Glad to know I chose a great mid for my frontstage.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I considered that but they are staged wrong so I couldn't do that to someone. I'd give em away to someone with an E39 if they paid shipping. I think they look damn good for a novice like myself! My next ones should sound friggin killer! No screwups this time.


Matt,
The more I look at your pics (limited I know), I think you need to look at some other options before starting on a 3rd set.

With both trim panels laying identically flat on a table, do the pods look symmetrical or are they skewed?

This is important because I can't tell in the pic if they are flat on the table.

2nd, can the left trim panel have something pushing on it from behind when installed twisting it forward?
Maybe some sound deadener, fabrication material, or speaker wiring that's hitting the a pillar wrong resulting in the misalignment issue?

Could the factory metal a-pillar be the cause?
Remember, as much as we think a vehicle is symmetrical, you'd be surprised how much is tweaked during the manufacturing process to make it all appear symmetrical.

Lastly, if you wanted to do three sets of these, all you had to do was call me.

I need to make pods for my A, B, and C pillars. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Matt,
> The more I look at your pics (limited I know), I think you need to look at some other options before starting on a 3rd set.
> 
> With both trim panels laying identically flat on a table, do the pods look symmetrical or are they skewed?
> ...


When they're both lying on the table they do not look the same! This is a mistake on my part. The right one has much more angle to it. The pillars wrap around a skinny airbag and have the same symmetry on both sides. I will start rebuilding these tomorrow evening... I definately know what I did wrong and am going to be modeling and testing at every step to assure that they fit and are angled properly from start to finish. [email protected] your three sets you need to make! I'm getting really good at this from screwing up so much.  These will be more on axis! I also want the morels more on-axis. They wont be completely on axis but they will be more than before. flocking is an awesome process... It's the only way to go when you have crazy slopes and angles. I'll post pics of the new pods by Monday or Tuesday.

update... After reading your original question I see what you were asking about the pillars being skewed. No, they are identical. I have a spare set sitting here and they are a perfect match. I will redeam myself on this next pair! updated comin soon!


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## vapor77 (Mar 12, 2011)

May I ask where you bought your flocking materials?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

vapor77 said:


> May I ask where you bought your flocking materials?


pm sent


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

I have an MS-8 and a BMW E46 and I am thinking about doing the same sort of install. My question is with the auto tune on the MS-8 I imagine that you are using the front tweeter high pass to the 3" active, right? So are you using a passive between the 3's and the tweeter? Have you figured out where that crossover point is and what order you will use between the 3's and the tweets? I have read that it is best to treat the a pillars as the same source for time alignment purposes but then you either need to use a passive between the 3's and the tweets or go active with more amp channels. I was thinking about the going active with a miniDSP for more control with both crossover points and then being able to fine tune the time alignment for improved staging (since you can't do this with the MS-8). Any help here is greatly appreciated.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> I have an MS-8 and a BMW E46 and I am thinking about doing the same sort of install. My question is with the auto tune on the MS-8 I imagine that you are using the front tweeter high pass to the 3" active, right? So are you using a passive between the 3's and the tweeter? Have you figured out where that crossover point is and what order you will use between the 3's and the tweets? I have read that it is best to treat the a pillars as the same source for time alignment purposes but then you either need to use a passive between the 3's and the tweets or go active with more amp channels. I was thinking about the going active with a miniDSP for more control with both crossover points and then being able to fine tune the time alignment for improved staging (since you can't do this with the MS-8). Any help here is greatly appreciated.


I'll be going fully active with dedicated channels to every driver. I'm thinking of crossing the mids at 300-6000, the tweeters at 6000 and up, midbass at 60-300.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i think you should listen to how they sound before making the decision again 

also, if you redo it, get hte air flocker Online Ordering DonJer Soft Flocking Fibers SuedeTex Products Kits Applicators Adhesive Gift Certificates Supplies Spray Gun

it will also help a lot with any kind of transitioning issue...


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I'll be going fully active with dedicated channels to every driver. I'm thinking of crossing the mids at 300-6000, the tweeters at 6000 and up, midbass at 60-300.


Try the XR3's at [email protected] then [email protected] and finally [email protected] all while leaving the midbass at 300hz. On the top end try 6k, 5k and then finally at 3.5k. You may be surprised at the [email protected] results.


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

So how are you going to do your crossovers to allow for auto tune with the MS-8 and still be active on all of your drivers? Inquiring minds need to know!


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## GoLow (Mar 4, 2010)

Good job. Nice car btw.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> So how are you going to do your crossovers to allow for auto tune with the MS-8 and still be active on all of your drivers? Inquiring minds need to know!


I'm not sure what you mean... When you set the front to 3-way it will individually level match and crossover each driver. Am I missing something here?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> Try the XR3's at [email protected] then [email protected] and finally [email protected] all while leaving the midbass at 300hz. On the top end try 6k, 5k and then finally at 3.5k. You may be surprised at the [email protected] results.


I will definately try this, thank you!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

GoLow said:


> Good job. Nice car btw.


Thanks!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> i think you should listen to how they sound before making the decision again
> 
> also, if you redo it, get hte air flocker Online Ordering DonJer Soft Flocking Fibers SuedeTex Products Kits Applicators Adhesive Gift Certificates Supplies Spray Gun
> 
> it will also help a lot with any kind of transitioning issue...


To be honest the hand held flocker worked fine!  I have seen how the air flocker works and I have to agree that it's pretty sweet! I however do not have a compressor. I listened to the drivers before when I modeled them... The issue was that the drivers side ring shifted out of alignment while glassing... this wont happen again. I liked the way they sounded around 45-60 degrees off-axis. Since i'll be adding a tweeter to the widebander I don't need to be that off axis. If I remember correctly you installed the XRs at 60 degrees in the MDX due to the top end being a little hot on axis... I will only be playing them up to maybe 6000 so I should be able to go a little more on axis and be ok.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Try the XR3's at [email protected] then [email protected] and finally [email protected] all while leaving the midbass at 300hz. On the top end try 6k, 5k and then finally at 3.5k. You may be surprised at the [email protected] results.


Can't be done. He is using a MS-8. No under lapping allowed.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> To be honest the hand held flocker worked fine!


that what i said until i got the air flocker hahaha then i kicked myself for doing anything by hand 

and you should invest in an AC anyway, IMO its an essential tool for not just car audio, but all sorts of stuff

i found my 60 gallon devilbiss used on craigslist for only 200 bucks


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> that what i said until i got the air flocker hahaha then i kicked myself for doing anything by hand
> 
> and you should invest in an AC anyway, IMO its an essential tool for not just car audio, but all sorts of stuff
> 
> i found my 60 gallon devilbiss used on craigslist for only 200 bucks


Nice! Sounds like you got a deal. I might look into it. Would be nice to have an AC on hand.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> that what i said until i got the air flocker hahaha then i kicked myself for doing anything by hand
> 
> and you should invest in an AC anyway, IMO its an essential tool for not just car audio, but all sorts of stuff
> 
> i found my 60 gallon devilbiss used on craigslist for only 200 bucks


Bing,

I noticed the install you did on Bluenotes car. I'm going to be running a 3-way frontstage with sub and am hoping I can keep my rearfill. I noticed that in Bluenotes install you used an electronic crossover between the mids and tweets. I have a coustic XM-3... Do you think this would work well in my situation? Another member brought to my attention that I wouldn't have enough channels on my MS-8.


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Bing,
> 
> I noticed the install you did on Bluenotes car. I'm going to be running a 3-way frontstage with sub and am hoping I can keep my rearfill. I noticed that in Bluenotes install you used an electronic crossover between the mids and tweets. I have a coustic XM-3... Do you think this would work well in my situation? Another member brought to my attention that I wouldn't have enough channels on my MS-8.


Sacralidge....lol!! Just save the extra output on the MS8 for another project.....center channel! Forget the rear fill.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Bing,
> 
> I noticed the install you did on Bluenotes car. I'm going to be running a 3-way frontstage with sub and am hoping I can keep my rearfill. I noticed that in Bluenotes install you used an electronic crossover between the mids and tweets. I have a coustic XM-3... Do you think this would work well in my situation? Another member brought to my attention that I wouldn't have enough channels on my MS-8.


let me help you here. i've done my research on the ms-8 3 way active with rear fill, ive read countless threads, articles and looked up enough info to make your eyes bleed. 

first off, YES, easily done! depending on the outcome you desire, their are many ways to do it. 

first - passivly - use a passive corss over between your tweeter and mid ranges to save the extra channels (personaly my fav method) 

second - 2nd precoessor, the mini DSP 2-4 does 2 input's and 4 out, you can use that to do your mid range tweeters. NOT a recommended setup, but this might apeal to you if you desire to retain control

third - run your sub passivly off youre woofers, tune it as a subless setup, and than use a passive cross over on your woofer outputs. 

the third one is a recent idea i've heard about, i believe it's called a kerbos mod or something, it's what has been adopted as the standard method of doing it, as it requires the least amoutn of parts and least amount of tune, i don't like it though, i woudln;t know how you'd do the T\A on yoru sub and woofer, a front mounted sub might work really well with that option.




SoundJunkie said:


> Sacralidge....lol!! Just save the extra output on the MS8 for another project.....center channel! Forget the rear fill.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


I've listned to dozens of HIGH end cars, and I've seen maybe 2-3 with centers. it's really not as big of an upgrade as you might think, it does a great job of holding the center of your stage, but really isn't worth it to me. it doesn't make anything any louder, its an eye sore, extra tuning and headachs for little gain. but that's me


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

the xm3 should work as long as it crosses over high enough for you and your tweeters are on the same plane as your mids (for the TA to work for both). If they are on different axis, I am not sure how the TA would be affected? I have a similar dilemma, and I am (for the moment) looking at using center before pursuing rear fill in my vehicle. I never thought I would say it, but I wish the MS-8 was an MS-10.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

Lorin said:


> the xm3 should work as long as it crosses over high enough for you and your tweeters are on the same plane as your mids (for the TA to work for both). If they are on different axis, I am not sure how the TA would be affected? I have a similar dilemma, and I am (for the moment) looking at using center before pursuing rear fill in my vehicle. I never thought I would say it, but I wish the MS-8 was an MS-10.


the rocket fosgate 3sixty.3 will have 10 channels


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Bye bye rear fill.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

the coustic will work fine.

i think the ms8 REALLY comes alive with a center and rear surround. having done a dozen cars with ms8, with about a 60/40 split between center and no center, and having listened to the same system with and without the rears on...it makes a HUGE difference with this processor. 

to the point that IMO when you do a 3 way, it sounds better to use passively power the front mid/tweet, or use an active xover, and still retain the ability to do center and rears, than it is to power it straight up and loose the rears. you can try to do 3 way active with center and sub and see how you like it, but the few cars i did, i thought it sounded better with the rears than without.

as for the 360.3, I hope it is a dramatic improvement over the 360.2, or else i prolly still want use it...but i guess i will try and get one to play with and find out


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> the coustic will work fine.
> 
> i think the ms8 REALLY comes alive with a center and rear surround. having done a dozen cars with ms8, with about a 60/40 split between center and no center, and having listened to the same system with and without the rears on...it makes a HUGE difference with this processor.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the advice Bing... Might have to dig the Coustic out of the closet.


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

Originally Posted by chefhow 
Try the XR3's at [email protected] then [email protected] and finally [email protected] all while leaving the midbass at 300hz. On the top end try 6k, 5k and then finally at 3.5k. You may be surprised at the [email protected] results. 

Response from Salimi
Can't be done. He is using a MS-8. No under lapping allowed. 

While technically that's true (no under or overlapping with MS-8) he could use the crossovers on his amp to fix the mid bass at 300 and then adust the MS-8 as recomended by Chefhow. Just sayin'


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> the coustic will work fine.
> 
> i think the ms8 REALLY comes alive with a center and rear surround. having done a dozen cars with ms8, with about a 60/40 split between center and no center, and having listened to the same system with and without the rears on...it makes a HUGE difference with this processor.
> 
> ...


3 way i dont feel is ms-8's strong suit, although it does bring out some of the best characteristic's of the given setup but it really shines with a center, 2 way active, with rear and a sub, which is how it was designed.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

eviling said:


> let me help you here. i've done my research on the ms-8 3 way active with rear fill, ive read countless threads, articles and looked up enough info to make your eyes bleed.
> 
> first off, YES, easily done! depending on the outcome you desire, their are many ways to do it.
> 
> ...


Fourth - Use a 4 channels amp that has all the necessary processing for your tweets+mids ; something like a Zapco DC or a Kenwood X4R 

Fifth - Use 2 MS-8s  http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1104606-post21.html 

Kelvin


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Fifth - Use 2 MS-8s  http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1104606-post21.html
> 
> Kelvin


i cant imagine that setup working great...considering how hard it is to establish a firm baseline tune with just a single ms8 when you redo autotune


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> i cant imagine that setup working great...considering how hard it is to establish a firm baseline tune with just a single ms8 when you redo autotune


Well if you have your 1st MS-8 (TW+MD+MB) dialled in, Xover exactly where you wanted, you'd need to calibrate only the 2nd one in order to bring up the best of your system. 
Your 1st MS-8 will set T/A for each driver meaning the 2nd MS-8 will only "see" a full range L driver and full range R driver... 

Am planning to do that in the future (when I buy another car ) No need to have 2 x MS-8 in my current wheelbarrow :blush:

Kelvin


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

While I appreciate the suggestions I think I'll just use the Coustic XM3 between the tweeter amp and mid amp. I'll have the ability to dial in exactly what crossover point I desire with it. Curious though... With the xm3 I dont think I'll have the ability to go from 300-6000 like I plan with the mid... I think it'll automatically go from 300 - up, so there wont be in seperation when it comes to the Morels taking over at 6000.  Maybe i'm just getting a little confused on the matter.


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

Do what Chefhow recommended (since he won a championship with these he knows what he's doin'!). Run your midbass to 300 (like I said above you can use your amp low pass to fix the low pass to the mid bass at 300) then try different high pass configurations on the mid / tweet output. To start I would try 315 - 6K for the XM3's and then 6K on up for your tweeters. Then as Chefhow recommended you can raise the high pass to the XM3's and try 315 @ 24db, 400 @ 24db and finally 500 @ 12db but all the while leaving the mid bass low pass at 300 and Tweeter high pass at 6K. After you listen to each one of these configurations a bit you will probably find one you like the best. 

Hey, Chefhow, do I have this right or am I confused? (Actually I know I'm confused but that's another story altogether...)


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> Do what Chefhow recommended (since he won a championship with these he knows what he's doin'!). Run your midbass to 300 (like I said above you can use your amp low pass to fix the low pass to the mid bass at 300) then try different high pass configurations on the mid / tweet output. To start I would try 315 - 6K for the XM3's and then 6K on up for your tweeters. Then as Chefhow recommended you can raise the high pass to the XM3's and try 315 @ 24db, 400 @ 24db and finally 500 @ 12db but all the while leaving the mid bass low pass at 300 and Tweeter high pass at 6K. After you listen to each one of these configurations a bit you will probably find one you like the best.
> 
> Hey, Chefhow, do I have this right or am I confused? (Actually I know I'm confused but that's another story altogether...)


I don't think I fully understand. The 900/5 could lp the midbass but would it still need 2 of the outputs on the ms8??? or would I be running a seperate set of rca cables from the drz back to the midbass channels of the 900/5? so it bypasses the ms8 completely? If this would work I could probably keep my rear fill. hmm.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> Do what Chefhow recommended (since he won a championship with these he knows what he's doin'!). Run your midbass to 300 (like I said above you can use your amp low pass to fix the low pass to the mid bass at 300) then try different high pass configurations on the mid / tweet output. To start I would try 315 - 6K for the XM3's and then 6K on up for your tweeters. Then as Chefhow recommended you can raise the high pass to the XM3's and try 315 @ 24db, 400 @ 24db and finally 500 @ 12db but all the while leaving the mid bass low pass at 300 and Tweeter high pass at 6K. After you listen to each one of these configurations a bit you will probably find one you like the best.
> 
> Hey, Chefhow, do I have this right or am I confused? (Actually I know I'm confused but that's another story altogether...)


I dont think it works like that, i think the h701 does something with that gap that a passive wont do :mean:


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

You would use the front high pass out of the MS-8 to go to your Coustic crossover and split that signal into two outputs for your XR3's and tweeters so the RCA's out of the coustic would go to 4 separate amp channels. One left and right for your XR3s and one left and right for the tweets. The MS-8 will high pass at whatever you decide to try. For an example lets use 400 @ 24dbs. The MS-8 will then low pass for the mid bass at the same 400 hz but here is where you can use the low pass on your mid bass amp to fix the low pass on your mid bass at 300. Then you will use the set the coustic crossover to split the high pass signal from the MS-8 for your XR3's and tweets so you will need 6 seperate amp channels total - L&R mid bass, L&R XR3, and L&R Tweeter. So with this example we have mid bass from 300 down (to your sub point), XR3 running from 400 @ 24dbs to 6K (bandpass), then the tweeters from 6K on up. Make sense?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> You would use the front high pass out of the MS-8 to go to your Coustic crossover and split that signal into two outputs for your XR3's and tweeters so the RCA's out of the coustic would go to 4 separate amp channels. One left and right for your XR3s and one left and right for the tweets. The MS-8 will high pass at whatever you decide to try. For an example lets use 400 @ 24dbs. The MS-8 will then low pass for the mid bass at the same 400 hz but here is where you can use the low pass on your mid bass amp to fix the low pass on your mid bass at 300. Then you will use the set the coustic crossover to split the high pass signal from the MS-8 for your XR3's and tweets so you will need 6 seperate amp channels total - L&R mid bass, L&R XR3, and L&R Tweeter. So with this example we have mid bass from 300 down (to your sub point), XR3 running from 400 @ 24dbs to 6K (bandpass), then the tweeters from 6K on up. Make sense?


Seems logical. I will try this. My pillars are drying now... glassed them this morning. Can't wait to work this all out and get some good clean sound.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

This is the bottom of my midrange ring for the new pods. I used PVC last time... This time I used ABS for the flush ring. Here you can see my ghetto chamfering from the bottom, lol. I used a dremel so I did the best I could without jacking anything up. The mdf rings fit VERY tight into the ABS but you can see the super glue that i soaked in around the edges from below for good measures. These things are very solid.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Finished up my final pair of pillars today. Here's a pic of them glassed. I sanded the glass smooth then mixed up a big dose of milkshake to strengthen the pillars. As you can see the angles are quite different from my original build. I spent 2 hours aiming and listening yesterday... I'm confident these are where I want them. Now for the flocking to dry and to make some press fit grilles. I should have everything installed and rocking by end of the week.


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

Looks like third times the charm!


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Finished up my final pair of pillars today. Here's a pic of them glassed. I sanded the glass smooth then mixed up a big dose of milkshake to strengthen the pillars. As you can see the angles are quite different from my original build. I spent 2 hours aiming and listening yesterday... I'm confident these are where I want them. Now for the flocking to dry and to make some press fit grilles. I should have everything installed and rocking by end of the week.



Look great....remember what I told you about the clay this time. It makes a huge difference!! PM me with any questions! 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

OK I'll bite. What about the clay? Inquiring minds need to know!!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Finished up my final pair of pillars today. Here's a pic of them glassed. I sanded the glass smooth then mixed up a big dose of milkshake to strengthen the pillars. As you can see the angles are quite different from my original build. I spent 2 hours aiming and listening yesterday... I'm confident these are where I want them. Now for the flocking to dry and to make some press fit grilles. I should have everything installed and rocking by end of the week.


ok! now step back, breath, put them in, and LISTEN!!!!!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> OK I'll bite. What about the clay? Inquiring minds need to know!!


I'm going to pack modeling clay on the inside to reduce resonances.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

TheHulk9er said:


> Do what Chefhow recommended (since he won a championship with these he knows what he's doin'!). Run your midbass to 300 (like I said above you can use your amp low pass to fix the low pass to the mid bass at 300) then try different high pass configurations on the mid / tweet output. To start I would try 315 - 6K for the XM3's and then 6K on up for your tweeters. Then as Chefhow recommended you can raise the high pass to the XM3's and try 315 @ 24db, 400 @ 24db and finally 500 @ 12db but all the while leaving the mid bass low pass at 300 and Tweeter high pass at 6K. After you listen to each one of these configurations a bit you will probably find one you like the best.
> 
> Hey, Chefhow, do I have this right or am I confused? (Actually I know I'm confused but that's another story altogether...)


That is correct Mike!! What I have found is depending upon your end goal the higher the xover point the better the natural curve responds. The XR can easily go down to 300hz, but by using a shallower xover slope and a higher freq you take any stress out of the midrange and it seems to perform better in the peaky 800-2K areas(at least that is what I found). Granted EVERY car is different and EVERY install is different so play around with them, its easy enough to do once you get the hang of the menus.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Play with different Xo points and slopes. You do what you have to do to make things work


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I'm going to pack modeling clay on the inside to reduce resonances.


Exactly...this time do the entire backside of the pillar and then apply RAAMmat, or your favorite MLV, over the top of the clay. A small amount of polyfill in the cavity behind the pod will help also. And yes, even if they are vented into the dash.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

I packed duct seal into my pillars. Gave them some real weight and nothing vibrates at all. You gonna start a pillar building business now with all the time's you've re-built these?


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## mr sideways (Nov 9, 2011)

Great work!
I have been following this thread closely as i am going to try some A pillar builds in my e36.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

with a wide band driver and the ms-8, the axis changes aren't really gonna make as much of a difference as i believe he thinks they will. it compansates allot, the stage is effected most by the positon. steep slopes generaly work best, i think the ms-8 goes up to 18 db slope, i usialy ran that slope on both sides my self. if you dont have the axis right, your stage is gonna land where it lands, the ms-8 compensates a bit with the T\A but your depth is pretty set, but with a wide band, it should appear rather deep pretty easily.


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

Not trying to jack this thread but I have a general question about a similar combination of drivers. Thinking about using a Hertz 3" (ML700) and Tweeter (ML280) with an MS-8 in a similar fashion at some point. Given that you have two drivers with plenty of overlaping capability other then trial and error is there any rule of thumb as to which driver should play what frequencies? Generally I seem to see the mid range utilized to play the bulk of the frequencies from it's low point to up around 6K or higher but of course the ML280 tweeter can play down to 2500 so you have some choice as to which driver gets which frequencies. One of my thoughts is by using the mid for most of these frequencies you stay away from any crossover problems in the 2-6K range. Another thought I had was that maybe by using the 3" only up to 2K it might be freed up to sound better at the lower end in the 300-500hz range. The other reason for the question is if I need more flexibilites with the crossover points and which order to use I am probably better off with a seperate crossover and amp combo ever though this is more complicated then an amp with a built in crossover that is limited to say 2K, 3K or 5K at 12dbs when maybe I should be at 7K at whatever order.

I imagine everyone will tell me that I just need to try all of these options to see which sounds best but any info from the experts here is greatly appreciated.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

the ms-8 will do up to a 24 db slope. I played a bit with my trinity wide-banders and tweets and ended up crossing over my smaller tweeters at above 8000 hz @ 24 db. definately play with them. I tried the higher crossover after talking with Mark brooks and am glad I did. Took away some of the harshness, although my tweeters arent in the same league as yours. Running my 3's from 350 to 8000, tweets up from there. I was really suprised that the widebanders do so well without a tweeter, but kept mine just the same since I already had it installed.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

SoundJunkie said:


> Exactly...this time do the entire backside of the pillar and then apply RAAMmat, or your favorite MLV, over the top of the clay. A small amount of polyfill in the cavity behind the pod will help also. And yes, even if they are vented into the dash.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


That's the plan Erik!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> I packed duct seal into my pillars. Gave them some real weight and nothing vibrates at all. You gonna start a pillar building business now with all the time's you've re-built these?


LOL... I should. But to be honest I'm sick of building pillars and can't wait to finally clean up my garage after all this.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Matt,
Can you take a side by side pic of all three sets of a-pillars?
Say all lined up on a card table?

I would love to see the differences in angles you are talking about.
Thx,

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> LOL... I should. But to be honest I'm sick of building pillars and can't wait to finally clean up my garage after all this.


now you gatta do kick panels for your woofers! :laugh:


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

eviling said:


> now you gatta do kick panels for your woofers! :laugh:


How many set of kick panels do you think it will take to get it right?

Oh....snap! 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> How many set of kick panels do you think it will take to get it right?
> 
> Oh....snap!
> 
> ...


I'd hope only one with a dedicated woofer and in a ms-8 setup. :laugh: you know what they say, once you go floor you never go door


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

TheHulk9er said:


> Not trying to jack this thread but I have a general question about a similar combination of drivers. Thinking about using a Hertz 3" (ML700) and Tweeter (ML280) with an MS-8 in a similar fashion at some point. Given that you have two drivers with plenty of overlaping capability other then trial and error is there any rule of thumb as to which driver should play what frequencies? Generally I seem to see the mid range utilized to play the bulk of the frequencies from it's low point to up around 6K or higher but of course the ML280 tweeter can play down to 2500 so you have some choice as to which driver gets which frequencies. One of my thoughts is by using the mid for most of these frequencies you stay away from any crossover problems in the 2-6K range. Another thought I had was that maybe by using the 3" only up to 2K it might be freed up to sound better at the lower end in the 300-500hz range. The other reason for the question is if I need more flexibilites with the crossover points and which order to use I am probably better off with a seperate crossover and amp combo ever though this is more complicated then an amp with a built in crossover that is limited to say 2K, 3K or 5K at 12dbs when maybe I should be at 7K at whatever order.
> 
> I imagine everyone will tell me that I just need to try all of these options to see which sounds best but any info from the experts here is greatly appreciated.


not an expert by any means, but IMO Unless you are using a large format Tweeter, I am not fond of crossing a Tweeter low, typically below 3.2khz or so with a fairly steep slope bc IMO you need cone area to reproduce certain things.
With the one of the fundamentals of the female vocal hovering around 2khz, its hard to get real body to the vocal when its being reproduced by a 3/4" or 1" Tweeter.
It can sound pretty, but IMO it will not sound REAL.

also keep in mind when you pick Crossover points and slopes of where the transition points are between the 2.
a 3" midrange being crossed at 300hz @12db/octave means it is playing all the way down to 160hz before its 12db down and 80hz before its 24db down.

also, if you can check freq response in your car, and find where you have some natural peaks, you can sometimes overlap Xo points by leaving gaps to help cut some of the peaks more naturally before using any EQ.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> How many set of kick panels do you think it will take to get it right?
> 
> Oh....snap!
> 
> ...


:laugh: Kicks are easy. I won't be building kicks though... I'm fine with my midbass in the doors. I don't think midbass do as well in kicks unless you seal them up. I'm a fan of mids and tweets in kicks and midbass in the doors.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Mic10is said:


> not an expert by any means, but IMO Unless you are using a large format Tweeter, I am not fond of crossing a Tweeter low, typically below 3.2khz or so with a fairly steep slope bc IMO you need cone area to reproduce certain things.
> With the one of the fundamentals of the female vocal hovering around 2khz, its hard to get real body to the vocal when its being reproduced by a 3/4" or 1" Tweeter.
> It can sound pretty, but IMO it will not sound REAL.
> 
> ...


Since I'm using a wideband that will play all the way up into tweeter territory I'll most likely have it playing all the way up to 8000 with the Morels taking over from there. Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Matt,
> Can you take a side by side pic of all three sets of a-pillars?
> Say all lined up on a card table?
> 
> ...


I'll try and do that tomorrow... I'm having some trouble uploading pics right now. I'm all done with the pillars and will be installing them tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> with a wide band driver and the ms-8, the axis changes aren't really gonna make as much of a difference as i believe he thinks they will. it compansates allot, the stage is effected most by the positon. steep slopes generaly work best, i think the ms-8 goes up to 18 db slope, i usialy ran that slope on both sides my self. if you dont have the axis right, your stage is gonna land where it lands, the ms-8 compensates a bit with the T\A but your depth is pretty set, but with a wide band, it should appear rather deep pretty easily.


I've listened to both and changing the degree that my mids are on axis is making a huge difference. The MS8 level matches, TAs and crosses over your speakers... You still need proper aiming to make them sound right.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

I spent a fair amount of time playing with positioning of my widebanders and recalibrating to see the differences (in no small part due to this post). The good thing is that the ms-8 does recalibrate quickly, so it is easy to see differences in positioning. Learned a fair bit in the time spent. I found that mine sound the best in the far corner of the dash firing toward the base of the rear view mirror. Basically, a little up (to clear the instrument cluster) and a little back. Im curious as well to see how closely your final pillars mirror my end results? Thank you for entertaining the rest of us with your trials and tribulations, especially while helping us along the way. Looking forward to the pics and can appreciate the major differences that minor changes in positioning can do!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Got a lot of work to do today on my install. Pillars are dry, loaded and ready to install. Going to make some press on grilles today as well. Here's a few pics of the deadening of the pillars and the final result. Erik(Soundjunkie) suggested I coat the rear of the pillars with clay, then cover that with MLV. Coating the back with clay is a PIA but hopefully it will contribute to the overall integrity of my pillars.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Very nice!

I have been following this thread to see how your pillars came out. I also made some crossover adjustments between my mid bass, XRs, and MT23's based on the helpful posts by Howard and Mic....I like the results. 

I'm looking forward to your final thoughts once you get them back mounted and start the final tuning process.


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## toolsong (Oct 7, 2009)

Mate this thread is very inspiring and encouraging me to do something similar for my E39


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

bertholomey said:


> Very nice!
> 
> I have been following this thread to see how your pillars came out. I also made some crossover adjustments between my mid bass, XRs, and MT23's based on the helpful posts by Howard and Mic....I like the results.
> 
> I'm looking forward to your final thoughts once you get them back mounted and start the final tuning process.


It's actually coincidental that your build log is what helped me decide to get the XR3m drivers!  I will keep you posted on my results... I should be tuning things by later tonight.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

toolsong said:


> Mate this thread is very inspiring and encouraging me to do something similar for my E39


I'm glad the thread is encouraging! Just do it my friend! The stock E39 stereo sucks.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

The pic makes them look uneven but they're not. they are level. They sound great! I installed them as a three way with sub for now but after listening I will be putting the Coustic crossover between the mid/tweet.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

Its still 3 way just a quasi active setup.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> Its still 3 way just a quasi active setup.


I know... I'll just be selecting 2-way on the MS8 during calibration. Right now my frontstage is 3-way. After adding the crossover between the mid/tweet it will be a active/passive hybrid.


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

Very Nice...


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

Those look very nice given the size of the drivers you have in them. It's hard to incorporate something that big into the a pillars and not have them look stupid. Those are sweet! Well done.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> Those look very nice given the size of the drivers you have in them. It's hard to incorporate something that big into the a pillars and not have them look stupid. Those are sweet! Well done.


Thank you. I'll be making some grilles soon. I'll post pics once I do.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

I am interested in your grills, and hoping to glean some ideas as to how I can add grills to my 3's as well. Given your propensity to do more than one batch? Just kidding, but am curious to see how you fab up the grills. Looks good.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

FartinInTheTub said:


>


:thumbsup:


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## Stoph (Jan 14, 2009)

Looks great! Cant wait to see how you make the grilles


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## thomasluke (Jun 10, 2011)

remeber this (I have some L1pro tweeters and some L6 midbass. I would love to add a midrange and go 3-way but I just don't have the skill to built a-pillars. I have an E-46 2000 BMW 328i sedan. anyone wanna build me a set for a good price? I would most likely use L-4s or some Scans.) just look at you now man great job. finishing mine up right now. hopefully they turn out as good as yours.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Is the quasi 3way to free up some channels for rears, etc? I'm guessing you found that the drivers were close enough that the same time alignment value was fine for the pair.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> Is the quasi 3way to free up some channels for rears, etc? I'm guessing you found that the drivers were close enough that the same time alignment value was fine for the pair.


I believe he wants rears yeah.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> Is the quasi 3way to free up some channels for rears, etc? I'm guessing you found that the drivers were close enough that the same time alignment value was fine for the pair.


Yeh... Having rear fill works better in my application. I have my coustic 3-way but not sure if it'll work in my application. I think I need a bandpass option. I'm looking into it.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

With that setup, you could probably just use a cap on the tweets (have to look into what size for your desired xover point) and run the widebands all the way up.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Matt,
Whats the individual specs for impedance and rms wattage on your a-pillar mids and tweets?

I needs the info. 
Thanks in advance!

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Matt,
> Whats the individual specs for impedance and rms wattage on your a-pillar mids and tweets?
> 
> I needs the info.
> ...


Hmm... I metered my XR3m drivers and they are 3.4ohm. Not sure on the Morel tweets. I've decided to not use the Coustic crossover and use a nicer crossover with bandpass capabilities. I cracked an rca output on my MS8 by I guess pushing the RCA in too hard??  I didn't actually use much force at all but the rca outputs aren't all that sturdy. I'll be up and running by next week some time. meanwhile I'm wiring some things up and deadening some plastic panels. I'll keep you all posted.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Morel publishes a 6 ohm inpedence with the MT 23 tweeter. 

I'm not sure about a published RMS rating for the XR, but I have a lot of power going to them, so applied correctly, RMS power shouldn't be a limiting factor.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> . I cracked an rca output on my MS8 by I guess pushing the RCA in too hard??  I didn't actually use much force at all but the rca outputs aren't all that sturdy.


BE CAREFUL RUNNING THE MS8 WITH A BUSTED RCA OUTPUT!!!! It SMOKED(literally almost caught on fire) one of my Trinities last year when that happened. There is a thread in the Tech Section with a review of the MS8(very recent) with this and how to fix it the busted output iirc.


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Hmm... I metered my XR3m drivers and they are 3.4ohm. Not sure on the Morel tweets. I've decided to not use the Coustic crossover and use a nicer crossover with bandpass capabilities. I cracked an rca output on my MS8 by I guess pushing the RCA in too hard??  I didn't actually use much force at all but the rca outputs aren't all that sturdy. I'll be up and running by next week some time. meanwhile I'm wiring some things up and deadening some plastic panels. I'll keep you all posted.


Call me crazy but i'm pretty sure you're not gonna need a crossover with bandpass capabilities. The highpass on the ms8 along with the lowpass on the coustic would be your bandpass. This is why you see a basic two way passive used in this situation by some ms8 owners. If you bandpass the mids along with the ms8's highpass you will be doing something crazy with the slope of the crossover and get some funky autotune results.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> BE CAREFUL RUNNING THE MS8 WITH A BUSTED RCA OUTPUT!!!! It SMOKED(literally almost caught on fire) one of my Trinities last year when that happened. There is a thread in the Tech Section with a review of the MS8(very recent) with this and how to fix it the busted output iirc.


Sent the MS8 to JBL. Not taking any chances. Thank you for the info.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

unemployedconsumer said:


> Call me crazy but i'm pretty sure you're not gonna need a crossover with bandpass capabilities. The highpass on the ms8 along with the lowpass on the coustic would be your bandpass. This is why you see a basic two way passive used in this situation by some ms8 owners. If you bandpass the mids along with the ms8's highpass you will be doing something crazy with the slope of the crossover and get some funky autotune results.


That's good to know. Glad you told me.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

unemployedconsumer said:


> Call me crazy but i'm pretty sure you're not gonna need a crossover with bandpass capabilities. The highpass on the ms8 along with the lowpass on the coustic would be your bandpass. This is why you see a basic two way passive used in this situation by some ms8 owners. If you bandpass the mids along with the ms8's highpass you will be doing something crazy with the slope of the crossover and get some funky autotune results.


Can others confirm this as fact? I need to know so I don't don't waste money I don't have on a crossover with bandpass capabilities.


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Looking Good - I like what yer Doing !


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Hmm... I metered my XR3m drivers and they are 3.4ohm. Not sure on the Morel tweets. I've decided to not use the Coustic crossover and use a nicer crossover with bandpass capabilities. I cracked an rca output on my MS8 by I guess pushing the RCA in too hard??  I didn't actually use much force at all but the rca outputs aren't all that sturdy. I'll be up and running by next week some time. meanwhile I'm wiring some things up and deadening some plastic panels. I'll keep you all posted.





bertholomey said:


> Morel publishes a 6 ohm inpedence with the MT 23 tweeter.
> 
> I'm not sure about a published RMS rating for the XR, but I have a lot of power going to them, so applied correctly, RMS power shouldn't be a limiting factor.


Thank you both for the info. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

jesus man! find the edit button! lol I am very impressed by your outlook on all of this, youve taken it all in stride mate. cheers for that, but i'm certain once you have everything sorted out you'll be more than happy


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> jesus man! find the edit button! lol I am very impressed by your outlook on all of this, youve taken it all in stride mate. cheers for that, but i'm certain once you have everything sorted out you'll be more than happy


I'm a very patient person  Sometimes stuff happens that you can't control. I try to look for the postive in all of this! The positive is that I can move my amps and processor to a less noisy location and route my cables to help as well. I'm looking forward to finishing up.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

xxx_busa said:


> Looking Good - I like what yer Doing !


Thanks man! I've always liked your Phass equipment and your style when it comes to install. I look forward to seeing your TL finished!


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

You could just add an amp with the ability to do a high crossover point. There are some amps that have the ability to do a crossover as high as 5K. While this is not perfect (since you probably want to run the XR3M a little higher) it would allow you to have one less link in the chain which is always a good thing. I am considering this option when I do my center channel and was considering the new Hertz HDP amps (their digital amps) as they have a X10 button so that the crossovers can be in the 50-500 range or 500-5K range.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> You could just add an amp with the ability to do a high crossover point. There are some amps that have the ability to do a crossover as high as 5K. While this is not perfect (since you probably want to run the XR3M a little higher) it would allow you to have one less link in the chain which is always a good thing. I am considering this option when I do my center channel and was considering the new Hertz HDP amps (their digital amps) as they have a X10 button so that the crossovers can be in the 50-500 range or 500-5K range.


Thought about that but that would have me purchasing a new amplifier which would be rather spendy since i'm not into cheapo gear. I think the XM3 idea should work nicely. waiting to get my MS8 back from JBL so I can get everything set up.


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## SI7NER (Feb 22, 2010)

good stuff! got me amped to finish my E39


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> You could just add an amp with the ability to do a high crossover point. There are some amps that have the ability to do a crossover as high as 5K. While this is not perfect (since you probably want to run the XR3M a little higher) it would allow you to have one less link in the chain which is always a good thing. I am considering this option when I do my center channel and was considering the new Hertz HDP amps (their digital amps) as they have a X10 button so that the crossovers can be in the 50-500 range or 500-5K range.


yeah, the high end JBL amps would probobly work perfect, they have a 4.100 that has some DSP in it and full range digital cross overs, their like 500$ amps though, idk much about them.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> yeah, the high end JBL amps would probobly work perfect, they have a 4.100 that has some DSP in it and full range digital cross overs, their like 500$ amps though, idk much about them.


I already have my 900/5 so only 2 channels are needed. I have an old school Soundstream D200 but it doesnt have any crossovers. The coustic crossover will fix that issue. I'm all set guys. My new MS8 should be here on tuesday then I'll be setting things up. thanks for the advice and comments.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Hey man great build! 

Question for you if you don't mind: Just wondering if you could describe what the Morel tweeter adds at the 8K+ level that the XR3's don't? I know they are advertised as and are used in many applications as tweeterless widebanders, but I've also heard that the MS8 (center channel especially) should never use a widebander but a speaker with a dedicated tweeter. This is coming right from Andy W.

Honestly I'm quite confused about the whole thing, hopefully a guy like yourself with some real world experience running with and without tweets can shed some light on this.

My XR3's are running off axis, in stock dash locations. I certainly like the sound of them right now, it's just that not being able to compare them to a system with high end tweeters leaves me wondering if I'm missing out on the top end?

Thanks!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> Hey man great build!
> 
> Question for you if you don't mind: Just wondering if you could describe what the Morel tweeter adds at the 8K+ level that the XR3's don't? I know they are advertised as and are used in many applications as tweeterless widebanders, but I've also heard that the MS8 (center channel especially) should never use a widebander but a speaker with a dedicated tweeter. This is coming right from Andy W.
> 
> ...


As posted earlier, do a search on polar response and beaming. To get you started: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/85018-ms-8-center-channel-speaker.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/99934-go-tweeterless-not.html 

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> As posted earlier, do a search on polar response and beaming. To get you started:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/85018-ms-8-center-channel-speaker.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/99934-go-tweeterless-not.html
> 
> Kelvin


Thanks for the clarification via PM Kelvin.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I'd like to pm you about my experience when I get a minute so we don't throw this thread off.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

bertholomey said:


> I'd like to pm you about my experience when I get a minute so we don't throw this thread off.


Please do.


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## ganesht (Oct 13, 2008)

Wow, awesome work.


BTW most of the photos in your first few posts seem to be dead.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Made some progress today to finish things up. Built some grilles. Used 1/4" mdf, stretched grille cloth over them and super glued them to the rings on the backside. Pretty happy with the result.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Just horrible!....j/k
Very nice job, man!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

amitaF said:


> Just horrible!....j/k
> Very nice job, man!


Thank you sir!


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Absolutely wonderful job on those - I really like the way you integrated both drivers and the color matching is superb.....I bet they sound pretty good as well.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Look awesome!!!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

bertholomey said:


> Absolutely wonderful job on those - I really like the way you integrated both drivers and the color matching is superb.....I bet they sound pretty good as well.


I appreciate that, thanks!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> Look awesome!!!


Thanks


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> Do what Chefhow recommended (since he won a championship with these he knows what he's doin'!). Run your midbass to 300 (like I said above you can use your amp low pass to fix the low pass to the mid bass at 300) then try different high pass configurations on the mid / tweet output. To start I would try 315 - 6K for the XM3's and then 6K on up for your tweeters. Then as Chefhow recommended you can raise the high pass to the XM3's and try 315 @ 24db, 400 @ 24db and finally 500 @ 12db but all the while leaving the mid bass low pass at 300 and Tweeter high pass at 6K. After you listen to each one of these configurations a bit you will probably find one you like the best.
> 
> Hey, Chefhow, do I have this right or am I confused? (Actually I know I'm confused but that's another story altogether...)


I tried this but realized quickly that something was wrong. I set the amp crossover at 300, then went to the MS8. With the setup I was using I had to select 2-way on the front. When it asked me the low/high setting I put in 300... This actually stifled my mid-bass completely having it playing one octave! One the Coustic crossover the mid highpass for the xr3m was set at 300 and the high setting was at 8000. As you can see the low pass on the amp at 300 along with the highpass of the coustic literally cut off my midbass. The solution was to turn off the crossover setting of the amp and run it full range. The low/high setting on the MS8 allows my midbass to run up to 300.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Those look great! I'm trying to decide between getting a set of those XR3M's or adding a tweeter to my Ebony/Trinity combo. So you like the added detail that the tweeters give, even with as high as those XRs play?


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

ecbmxer said:


> Those look great! I'm trying to decide between getting a set of those XR3M's or adding a tweeter to my Ebony/Trinity combo. So you like the added detail that the tweeters give, even with as high as those XRs play?


I think that the XRs sound great on the top end but the Morels give it that extra sparkle up top. Added detail.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I think that the XRs sound great on the top end but the Morels give it that extra sparkle up top. Added detail.


so how is your stage width? listen to the live version of hotel calafonia and tell me where things are hitting, with that kind of speaker placment your stage is probobly gonna end in the middle of your A frame in the back of the dash like mine was with the ms-8. those drives and you have dif amps too, so you might have different results. your dash is also shaped differently so who knows


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

eviling said:


> so how is your stage width? listen to the live version of hotel calafonia and tell me where things are hitting, with that kind of speaker placment your stage is probobly gonna end in the middle of your A frame in the back of the dash like mine was with the ms-8. those drives and you have dif amps too, so you might have different results. your dash is also shaped differently so who knows


I think you mean stage "depth"... It's a little past my windshield and stage width sounds as wide as my side mirrors. Things will change this week though since I'm changing out one of the amps and installing the XM3e crossover. I'll keep the thread updated.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> I think you mean stage "depth"... It's a little past my windshield and stage width sounds as wide as my side mirrors. Things will change this week though since I'm changing out one of the amps and installing the XM3e crossover. I'll keep the thread updated.


Do you have good height? When I ran my MS8 and the Trinities I had width out beyond the mirrors and depth to the glass but I was dash height. One of the judges at ESN in 2010 said he had never heard a car get as wide as mine was. For the faults the MS8 has its strengths are EXTREMELY strong.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

chefhow said:


> Do you have good height? When I ran my MS8 and the Trinities I had width out beyond the mirrors and depth to the glass but I was dash height. One of the judges at ESN in 2010 said he had never heard a car get as wide as mine was. For the faults the MS8 has its strengths are EXTREMELY strong.


Excellent height! Above the dash and center of windshield.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> Excellent height! Above the dash and center of windshield.


Lucky!!!


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

I wish you were closer where I could hear your car. Nice job!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

looks fantastic...isn't it wild how much you can learn just through a few tries on the same project?  it helps with all facets of fiberglassing and sanding in the future.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> looks fantastic...isn't it wild how much you can learn just through a few tries on the same project?  it helps with all facets of fiberglassing and sanding in the future.


Yes practice does make perfect! Well... not perfect but pretty nice  I appreciate the pointers Bing. Am I on the right track with the crossover settings? Using the MS8 with the Coustic XM3e is a little confusing. look at this thread some posts back and let me know please. I want to make sure I'm setting it up right and it looks as if you have done this before. Thanks man!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

yeah, you dont need a bandpass filter capable crossover, you need a xover that can low pass and high pass up in the range that you wanna divide the xr3 and tweeter. but a lot of times, the xovers with a x10 multiplier on it to be able to do that, ends up being one with a bandpass filter on it anyway. in that case, such as my installs with the cache audio piece, iirc, i just set the highpass for the midrange to be as low as possible, far below waht the high pass on the ms8 will be like say 60hz, where as the ms8 highpasses it at 150hz...so it wont affect anything.

i have never used the xr3 with a tweeter, so i really dont know where you would want the crossover point to be...for me, the xr3 hardly lacks highs, infact, i think it has even more agressive highs than the mt23 

b


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> yeah, you dont need a bandpass filter capable crossover, you need a xover that can low pass and high pass up in the range that you wanna divide the xr3 and tweeter. but a lot of times, the xovers with a x10 multiplier on it to be able to do that, ends up being one with a bandpass filter on it anyway. in that case, such as my installs with the cache audio piece, iirc, i just set the highpass for the midrange to be as low as possible, far below waht the high pass on the ms8 will be like say 60hz, where as the ms8 highpasses it at 150hz...so it wont affect anything.
> 
> i have never used the xr3 with a tweeter, so i really dont know where you would want the crossover point to be...for me, the xr3 hardly lacks highs, infact, i think it has even more agressive highs than the mt23
> 
> b


So you're saying that you set the highpass for the midrange at 60hz? 
Here is what I'm working with... Tell me what you think and where you would start.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> So you're saying that you set the highpass for the midrange at 60hz?
> Here is what I'm working with... Tell me what you think and where you would start.


he says't that because the channels that are fed to the cross over is already being crossed over, your only splitting THAT up between your tweeter and mid's. it's kind of a braind twister, but your just doing the same thing you do with your amps cross overs, set them as wide as they go so they don't intefer with you're ms-8. at least i think that's what is going on here. :laugh: but i've been wrong before


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

FartinInTheTub said:


> So you're saying that you set the highpass for the midrange at 60hz?
> Here is what I'm working with... Tell me what you think and where you would start.


you cannot use a xm3e to do what you want. It doesnt have a selectable LOWPASS filter on any of the channels with a 20x or 10x multiplier to enable you to LOWPASS the XR3s at say...3-5000hz.

you would need something like a xm5E or any other two or three way xover with bandpass function on one of the channels...because as i mentioned, usually the only xovers that come with a LOWPASS AND MULTIPLIER to allow you to lowpass into the kilohertz range, those are the ones that come with a bandpass filter anyway.

you can pick up a cache cex, or coustic xm5 or xm6...and quite a few others out there...

b


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> you cannot use a xm3e to do what you want. It doesnt have a selectable LOWPASS filter on any of the channels with a 20x or 10x multiplier to enable you to LOWPASS the XR3s at say...3-5000hz.
> 
> you would need something like a xm5E or any other two or three way xover with bandpass function on one of the channels...because as i mentioned, usually the only xovers that come with a LOWPASS AND MULTIPLIER to allow you to lowpass into the kilohertz range, those are the ones that come with a bandpass filter anyway.
> 
> ...


DAMMIT! Thanks man.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> you cannot use a xm3e to do what you want. It doesnt have a selectable LOWPASS filter on any of the channels with a 20x or 10x multiplier to enable you to LOWPASS the XR3s at say...3-5000hz.
> 
> you would need something like a xm5E or any other two or three way xover with bandpass function on one of the channels...because as i mentioned, usually the only xovers that come with a LOWPASS AND MULTIPLIER to allow you to lowpass into the kilohertz range, those are the ones that come with a bandpass filter anyway.
> 
> ...


I checked out the cache but it will only go to 5k on the mid and I want to run them up to 8k. If I was ok with 5k I would have kept my audiocontrol DXS since it has everything I would need including 24db slope. Hmm.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

you can always just try it with the 5000 hz and see how it sounds. As close as yours are mounted to each other, it may do just fine.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Hmm not sure if i know any analog xovers that will reach up to 8k for lp...u may have to go with a.digital piece...

Sent from my bed using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Mini DSP comes to mind OR use an amp that can do it (Zapco DC, JBL MS, DLS A7, Mosconi One 120.4 DSP, etc...) 

Kelvin


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Might be overkill with the ms8

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Yet the JBL MS amps have been introduced to give more flexibility to the end user - those crazy "3-way front active+2-way active rears+2-way active center+sub" buyers . 

Kelvin


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> Hmm not sure if i know any analog xovers that will reach up to 8k for lp...u may have to go with a.digital piece...
> 
> Sent from my bed using Tapatalk



Was looking through the XM-5e and I believe it fits the bill. Here are the specs... Looks like the XM-5e's lowpass goes all the way up to 25k. <--- Very rare imo.

FEATURES
*fr/rr/sub-RCA inputs
*HP+BP(bandpass)+LP outputs
*HP: selectable 6/18dB/oct slope; 2-range variable xover 40-400Hz/800Hz-8kHz
5V outputs
*BP: HP section selectable 6/18dB/oct slope; 2-range variable xover 40-400Hz/800Hz-8kHz; LP section 18dB/oct 2-range variable xover 125Hz-1.25kHz/2.5-25kHz
*sub LP: 18dB/oct variable 32-250Hz


*To set this up for my XRs and MT23s I would need to set the lowpass for the mid at 8k and the highpass on the mid section at 300? Then set the highpass on the tweeter at 8k? Am I correct on this?*


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

You will set the MS-8 to get the high pass at 300 on up (for you 3" / Tweeter combo). You need to split that output at 8K so that you end up with two sets of outputs - 3" (300 - 8K) and tweeter (8K on up). It should look like this;

.............................................................../->(8K HP - 8K on up)->Tweeter
MS-8 ->(300 HP)->Crossover->(8K HP+LP)-|
...............................................................\->(8K LP - 300-8K)->XR3m

The problem you usually run into is most if not all analog crossovers are made to handle a standard system where you have a front high pass a rear high pass and a sub low pass so there is no option to create the 8k type LP you need. The only reasonable cost option I have been able to find is a miniDSP for $125.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

TheHulk9er said:


> You will set the MS-8 to get the high pass at 300 on up (for you 3" / Tweeter combo). You need to split that output at 8K so that you end up with two sets of outputs - 3" (300 - 8K) and tweeter (8K on up). It should look like this;
> 
> |->(8K HP - 8K on up)->Tweeter
> MS-8 ->(300 HP)->Crossover->(8K HP+LP)-|
> ...


I'd actually go with something like: 
MS-8 set to HP @ 300Hz --> XM
XM in BP mode set to (the lowest available) HP @ 40Hz to LP @ 8kHz --> XR3M 
XM set to HP @ 8kHz --> Tweeter

Why 40Hz, so that it doesn't introduce phase problems with the 300Hz Xover set by the MS-8. 

Kelvin


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## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> I'd actually go with something like:
> MS-8 set to HP @ 300Hz --> XM
> XM in BP mode set to (the lowest available) HP @ 40Hz to LP @ 8kHz --> XR3M
> XM set to HP @ 8kHz --> Tweeter
> ...


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

TheHulk9er said:


> subwoofery said:
> 
> 
> > I'd actually go with something like:
> ...


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> Might be overkill with the ms8
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


Bing,

Would this unit work for my application? mids 300-8k, tweeters 8k and up. 

http://www.coustic.com/support/pdfs/XM-7.PDF


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## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

All this is why JBL needs to listen and lose the amps in the MS8 and give us an option for a smaller case version called MS10 or 12 or 16 even. Go crazy !!


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

Ended up ordering the miniDSP 2x4. I think this will offer me way more options than any analog crossover will. My mids and tweeters will be handled.


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