# How train for "listening" - sq



## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

Music is a very sujective matter hence many times we ponder and quarell about what is and isn't this almost nirvana like state of real Sound Quality. To me, in the most basic terms, is how well a system can reproduce a recording. For which in car audio, it seems most of us are always looking at what to change/test/re-install/purchase/rta/time align/soundeaden in our systems...

What about approching this from a personal POV and taking the time to trully listen to the music we hear... in other words lets learn to "listen".

....for those of you with significant other halfs will probably relate when I say that were always told were not good listeners  .

- Hence this tutorial -

This isn't hard... in fact; its pretty easy and requires very little money. Most probably have the gear ready to go.   
Some of this has already been spoken about on some threads and i've included some links - however I thought that having it all in one tutorail might help a newcomer or a person who hasn't seen all this information before.

For this DIY tutorial I recommend the following;

*a) A pair of headphones* - you might already have a set to go. If not, you don't even have to buy fancy, bud style phones are all that are needed and are pretty cheap. 
If your $$ extends further I recommend Grado's range, in particular their RS1.
http://www.gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm
Here is further reading on the subject and some more DIY.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2562&highlight=headphones

*b) A reputable source (aka CD Hifi). *Most of us would have access to a home CD player of some sort and 90% have a headphone output... obviously if your using headphones, this is crucial.
I don't recommend a pc, purely as their internal amps can be pretty noisy and the pc itself creates a fair amount of electrical noise... but if thats all you have then it will have to do.
(Again if $$$ allows, there is dedicated Audiophile grade CD players and headphone amplifiers for the job. As a DIY'r I don't think it's necessary, a descent pair of headphones on a home stereo will sound better than 95% of cars, so no need to go into the pricy stuff for this tutorial...)

*c) You favourite CD*, one you know well and like listening to over and over again!  
If your not so sure on your discs, here is a link that I think has pretty good ideas for some SQ style discs (its not ultra necessary, but a reasonable investment)http://www.audiodiscs.com.au/shop.php/our-top-picks/c_37.html
More DIY
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31443

*d) Some peace & quiet.* - a comfortable non distracting room, with minimal noise and nice environment is ideal.
Again for those with significant others or 'little ones' this could be a challange  .

*- the "listening" - *

Make your room comfortable, relax, and eat or drink what ever you need before hand  ...
Sit down, put on your headphones and being to play your music. It's important that you are in a relaxed state, but alert. (note thats not at attention)  
When the music begins don't think about it too much. Let the music get into you. Ever heard people we say you can _feel_ the music??; let your brain share in on this experiance!
Then slowly try to picture this music being created live in front of you and what the artist was trying to convey. I like to use a hat and cover my eyes so light doesnt distract me, even kicking back on the couch!
Do this several times and try to make it part of you weekly schedule. I recommend once a week, let this be time for you to just relax and simply enjoy the music undisturbed. After all isn't this site basically away for us to enjoy our music, so lets do it a little more undisturbed, you could say its almost done in a better way!

*- Outcome & Goals - *

After several listening sessions your ears/brain should have a better understanding of what the artist and music producers were trying to "show you" in their music. Your mental picture of the music will be one were not also will you know the lyrics and beat, but the little things, like the particular notes on a guitar solo, or when an artist takes a breath for the next note etc... Your brain will know these and will anticipate to hear them.
This will then allow you to use the same music/cd to test and tune your own car system as you have trained yourself and created yourself into a personal reference you can subjectively use to make decissions with. When you don't hear the music the same or bits are missing or not reproduced so well you know were the weakness in your system is and you can then plan steps to improve that.
This not a massively complex or overly sceintific ideal, it's infact quite personal and simple. It will both improve yourself, your understanding of your music, the way you listen to your cars system and maybe even help you when trying to listen to your otherhalf!  



_ I hope this helps; most long time music lovers or dare i say 'audiophiles' will agree that this isn't a revelation or anything new. But seeing as this site is about helping each other, why not share this knowledge. This isn't the only way or a must do, but rather a guide. I'm sure in your own experimentations you will discover much more..._


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Thanks for sharing the info. You have actually raised my listening awareness.  "Repetition is the mother of skill"


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

The question I pose is this.
How do you know that some newly heard artifact is because of: 
better listening conditions
better gear
or just as plausible, pleasant distortion?

I will concede headphones and ear buds remove the room acoustics, however in doing so you also remove acoustic crosstalk, which is the prime determiner for stereophonic replay.

Point
You cannot use headphones for stereophonic reproduction.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Abmolech said:


> Point
> You cannot use headphones for stereophonic reproduction.


I agree, another thing I pound into people's heads is the fact that you can't train on a system that is unfamiliar, you have to know YOUR rig before you can judge a recording. if you constantly listen and "train" on different systems in different rooms how do you know what to listen for.

When I do studio work I often times carry my own monitors, probably not as high of quality as some of theirs, certainly not as flat, but dammit, I've been listening to them for half my life, I know what they sound like, period.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Either way every method is flawed. I personally prefer the more simplistic approach. I use what's available and chose what makes the most sense to me. Some good points have been brought up. Keep the wealthy info coming.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

chad said:


> you can't train on a system that is unfamiliar, you have to know YOUR rig before you can judge a recording. I've been listening to them for half my life, I know what they sound like, period.


X2, very critcal points


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

Abmolech said:


> The question I pose is this.
> How do you know that some newly heard artifact is because of:
> better listening conditions
> better gear
> ...


Limitations of the equipment, something unavoidable & applies to just about every medium we know off (apart from listening to the music live, but were talking reproduction).



chad said:


> I agree, another thing I pound into people's heads is the fact that you can't train on a system that is unfamiliar, you have to know YOUR rig before you can judge a recording. if you constantly listen and "train" on different systems in different rooms how do you know what to listen for.


+1, hence I suggest that this needs to be repeated. Now remember many people these days accept that an i-pod is personal music...
This tutorial is aimed at the begineer to SQ... its one building block sort to speak.



> When I do studio work I often times carry my own monitors, probably not as high of quality as some of theirs, certainly not as flat, but dammit, I've been listening to them for half my life, I know what they sound like, period.


+1 I lorv my Alesis Studio 1's, wouldn't sell them for the world. I don't do studio work anymore but have kept the S1's due to their lack of colouring. certainly beat my Yamaha S10's, my Tannoy 'K' & my Energy C1's.

+1 on all your points.
But neither of you are DIY rookies  .
You understand the differences, +'s and -'s in systems; and have some measured knowledge & skill behind you. What about the person who is new to this all... were do they start?
The idea of this tutorial is to let a new person to the ideals of SQ music gain a starting off basis and to learn his/her music. Headphones are not THE ultimate solution, but their pretty good and certainly better than most cars. Specially considering that headphones remove the biggest problem in car, which is the cars environment.
Listening to headphones is not the same as listening to a hi-fi or a car etc, but the art of learning your music and really listening to it takes time to develop, for a rookie this is one way; which I think works pretty well. That the only aim of this tutorial.


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## pahhhoul (Mar 14, 2008)

This is how I've trained my ears for SQ for the past 2 years.
I'll go to my local jazz club; Yoshi's in Oakland. They have a great sound system.
I'll watch & listen to the show. Watch it twice to try and remember the sound of the musicians and singer. Purchase the CD of the artist who is performing. Then attempt to re-create it from there. I know live performances are totally different from recorded sound sessions, but I'll never be able to get into a recording studio to hear how the engineer sets everything up.So I have no reference point for reproducing an album put out by XXXX. But when I'm like 20 feet away from someone drumming on live drums I know what live drums sound like. When I'm 20 feet away from DeeDee Bridgewater whalin' away on the mic, I know what her voice sounds like. So sometimes instead of spending thousands of dollars on gear, I'll put it towards a ticket to who's performing in town, some drinks & food. Reproducing sound is a great passion/hobby, but seeing & hearing it live is something I enjoy a lot more.

BTW, hearing and seeing Shelia E. tear it up on the drums(man that was awesome), I know I'd have to spend some serious cash to reproduce that at home or in my car.

Just my $0.02.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

syd-monster said:


> ....for those of you with significant other halfs will probably relate when I say that were always told were not good listeners  .


I call this selective hearing! 

I actually have great hearing. I have it checked yearly for my job to ensure there is no hearing loss caused by my work atmosphere. Every time I have it checked they comment on how good my hearing is. But it is only good when I want it to be!  

Nice post by the way!


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

pahhhoul said:


> This is how I've trained my ears for SQ for the past 2 years.
> I'll go to my local jazz club; Yoshi's in Oakland. They have a great sound system.
> I'll watch & listen to the show. Watch it twice to try and remember the sound of the musicians and singer. Purchase the CD of the artist who is performing. Then attempt to re-create it from there. I know live performances are totally different from recorded sound sessions, but I'll never be able to get into a recording studio to hear how the engineer sets everything up.So I have no reference point for reproducing an album put out by XXXX. But when I'm like 20 feet away from someone drumming on live drums I know what live drums sound like. When I'm 20 feet away from DeeDee Bridgewater whalin' away on the mic, I know what her voice sounds like. So sometimes instead of spending thousands of dollars on gear, I'll put it towards a ticket to who's performing in town, some drinks & food. Reproducing sound is a great passion/hobby, but seeing & hearing it live is something I enjoy a lot more.
> 
> BTW, hearing and seeing Shelia E. tear it up on the drums(man that was awesome), I knowI'd have to spend some serious cash to reproduce that at home or in my car.


Great post!! I totally agree. Nothing beats live music, because even the best of the best home audio is always a reproduction.
Having said that not every person gets to see these live acts. My favourite live act no longer lives (J. Hendrix). So a quality remaster is the best I gots to go by. Also so much of my particular music is not generally 'live' down here in Aus. But the rare occassion it does... horray!



> Just my $0.02.


 More than 2c worth mate! Thank you for reminding us that all these stereos, hifi's, 5.1, time alingment, voicecoil formers, horn loading, crazy caps and Isobaric Vs sealed, wiring harness, mdf, 4g cable, CD loader, HPX etc..... in the end, its all about the music. F' maths, music is the universal language, it moves the soul.


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## pahhhoul (Mar 14, 2008)

Music does move the soul. Totally. It's the passion for it that makes.. excuse me, that let's us enjoy it. It's that same enjoyment that also fuels our passion that also engulfs us, at least me when I'm tuning my system, installing a component, makin' new cables etc. It's the enjoyment. Plain and simple. So everyone and anyone, train those ears, install that amp, head unit, etc.. and enjoy.


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## pahhhoul (Mar 14, 2008)

well, tonight after popping in at Yohsi's in Oakland for some drinks, David Sanborn was playing! I sat in for a little to hear him and his band, WOW!
I love the sound of live music! His drummer did such a sick solo! The whole time I kept thinking I just wish I could put together a 10" sub to sound anywhere near close to that.
Well, my reference point for listening to speakers has been reset.
Nothing like the sound of live instruments in front of my face for reference material.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

pahhhoul said:


> well, tonight after popping in at Yohsi's in Oakland for some drinks, David Sanborn was playing! I sat in for a little to hear him and his band, WOW!
> I love the sound of live music! His drummer did such a sick solo! The whole time I kept thinking I just wish I could put together a 10" sub to sound anywhere near close to that.
> Well, my reference point for listening to speakers has been reset.
> Nothing like the sound of live instruments in front of my face for reference material.


Nice! I guess that's one of the advantages of living in the big city!


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Abmolech said:


> Point
> You cannot use headphones for stereophonic reproduction.


I totally disagree with this statement. I find a crossfeed filter does the trick nicely. Gets the music out in front of your face instead of in the centre of your head.


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

benny said:


> I find a crossfeed filter does the trick nicely. Gets the music out in front of your face instead of in the centre of your head.


ooh.. care to share Benny? Is there a link perhaps to one of these Crossfeed filters, its something new to me.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

pahhhoul said:


> well, tonight after popping in at Yohsi's in Oakland for some drinks,


LOVE that place!!!!

we should do a bay area MEET there one evening to prove how much car audio sucks to live performances lo

that and its better meeting with some jazz and drinks and food and women than in a parking lot


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

newtitan said:


> LOVE that place!!!!
> 
> we should do a bay area MEET there one evening to prove how much car audio sucks to live performances lo
> 
> that and its better meeting with some jazz and drinks and food and women than in a parking lot


I'd be 1000000% down for that one. Live jazz and a drink is a GREAT way to spend a Saturday evening. 

Pahhhoul, could you shoot me a PM with the address of Yoshi's please?

And Syd, thanks for the post. Also, thanks to Abmolech and Chad for posting their points of view. I love reading through threads like this.

Zach


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

syd-monster said:


> ooh.. care to share Benny? Is there a link perhaps to one of these Crossfeed filters, its something new to me.


Check out headwize or headfi forums to learn about building your own Linkwitz crossfeed filter.

My crossfeed is built into my RockBox firmware on my 1G iPod nano.


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## pahhhoul (Mar 14, 2008)

newtitan, Boostedrex; you guys got pms


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## syd-monster (Jan 7, 2008)

benny said:


> Check out headwize or headfi forums to learn about building your own Linkwitz crossfeed filter.
> My crossfeed is built into my RockBox firmware on my 1G iPod nano.


Oooo. Thanks mate. Ah yes Linkwitz... I refered to him/their page on the original post. Here is the link again.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm
Plenty of hands-on research about headphone use here & really affordable too.

Here is the two sites as mentioned by Benny... lots of help!
http://headwize.com/index.php
http://www.head-fi.org/


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

In the car environment with all the reflections and mutiple images. The stage wander as you look left and right. Selective listening can be your best friend.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

thanks syd. I suck at posting links. Lazy.


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## kau_999 (Apr 19, 2008)

benny said:


> I totally disagree with this statement. I find a crossfeed filter does the trick nicely. Gets the music out in front of your face instead of in the centre of your head.


HI! I don't mean to diss you or anything but i did some online research about the xfeed. none of 'em mentioned about getting the music in front of the face other than amplifying the sound and the quality. I'm really interested in this stuff if it really can help with the "staging". please enlighten me. thx


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

you'll have to try it out and hear it for yourself. How much can you really learn online? Build a cmoy, build a crossfeed circuit, plug in your headphones,(along with some kind of source) and you'll hear what I mean.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

benny said:


> I totally disagree with this statement. I find a crossfeed filter does the trick nicely. Gets the music out in front of your face instead of in the centre of your head.


Gonna build one soon! Thanks for reminding me lol...


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## kau_999 (Apr 19, 2008)

benny said:


> you'll have to try it out and hear it for yourself. How much can you really learn online? Build a cmoy, build a crossfeed circuit, plug in your headphones,(along with some kind of source) and you'll hear what I mean.


so true  i'm gonna build one soon.
i did a little more research...n found the answer to my question here http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/ for those who might be interested


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

kau_999 said:


> so true  i'm gonna build one soon.
> i did a little more research...n found the answer to my question here http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/ for those who might be interested


Cool link!

This is the one I am building: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/headphone-xfeed.htm


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## Thumperx (Nov 20, 2007)

pahhhoul said:


> This is how I've trained my ears for SQ for the past 2 years.
> I'll go to my local jazz club; Yoshi's in Oakland. They have a great sound system.
> I'll watch & listen to the show. Watch it twice to try and remember the sound of the musicians and singer. Purchase the CD of the artist who is performing. Then attempt to re-create it from there. I know live performances are totally different from recorded sound sessions, but I'll never be able to get into a recording studio to hear how the engineer sets everything up.So I have no reference point for reproducing an album put out by XXXX. But when I'm like 20 feet away from someone drumming on live drums I know what live drums sound like. When I'm 20 feet away from DeeDee Bridgewater whalin' away on the mic, I know what her voice sounds like. So sometimes instead of spending thousands of dollars on gear, I'll put it towards a ticket to who's performing in town, some drinks & food. Reproducing sound is a great passion/hobby, but seeing & hearing it live is something I enjoy a lot more.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this assessment. I too leaving from Jazz club, and turning on my (then Sony C910, Audiocontrol eqx, ID CD-1E horns, 2 sets of Oz Audio mid bass drivers, Infinity Kappa sub, Phoenix gold TI amps) sound system which sounded complete flat and lack luster after the performance. I was amazed to hear the difference what I thought was a "good" set-up turns out to be not so good.


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