# alternative to MLV



## ultramag (Oct 27, 2013)

I know there are many posts on this topic and i have read them all,but i was in a local princess auto store up here which is like a harbor freight store in the USA and i came across these anti-fatigue mats,they appear to be a combination of vinyl/rubber with a closed cell foam core and they are cheap with no odor 3x4ft @ 7.99 each and heavy,was thinking of bonding this to my layer of B-Quiet ultimate and then the B_Quiet on the interior door structure,i cannot locate "real" MLV in my province and to have it shipped from eatern Canada costs the same as the product!!! I also seen rolls of ribbed or diamond pattern rubber floor runners any good as a replacement???


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

I saw it last week, and thought the same thing. It's a little thick though, might be a pita to install. Keep us posted if you decide to try it out!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

There are mostly two considerations for a sound barrier in a car audio installation: density and flexibility. The more mass you can use (the heavier the material), the less sound will pass through it. However, the overall thickness is important in car audio applications because there is often very little room to install these products while still having the factory trim panels and carpet fit without problems.

So products like MLV and even lead sheets are popular because they are very dense, meaning lots of mass per square inch. Dense products are also generally thin, which makes installation easy because thinner materials are also generally more flexible.

So if the anti-fatigue pads you found are really dense, very thin, and are flexible enough to be installed behind trim panels and under carpet, then go for it. Just make sure to tape or glue sheets together to create as large of a single air-tight piece as you can.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jazzi said:


> There are mostly two considerations for a sound barrier in a car audio installation: density and flexibility. The more mass you can use (the heavier the material), the less sound will pass through it. However, the overall thickness is important in car audio applications because there is often very little room to install these products while still having the factory trim panels and carpet fit without problems.
> 
> So products like MLV and even lead sheets are popular because they are very dense, meaning lots of mass per square inch. Dense products are also generally thin, which makes installation easy because thinner materials are also generally more flexible.
> 
> So if the anti-fatigue pads you found are really dense, very thin, and are flexible enough to be installed behind trim panels and under carpet, then go for it. Just make sure to tape or glue sheets together to create as large of a single air-tight piece as you can.


i have never seen lead sheets.. am i missing out on something?


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

For example, Cascade Audio Engineering makes a product called VB-3 which is a lead sheet suspended between a layer of foam on either side.

Multilayered composite material for cars


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## ultramag (Oct 27, 2013)

well i bought a sheet of re-cycled rubber 1/8" thick made from recycled tires and i bonded a piece of 1/8" CCf on both sides and then held it in front of my home audio speakers,seems to work well,the rubber mat is quite heavy and cheap $7.99 for a 2ft x 4 ft piece and no odour,we will see


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

No odor even after in a car standing in the sun for hours on end? 

Right tool for the right job my friend. Even MLV needs to meets these standards. SDS doesn't even use recycled MLV because there has a potential for odor IIRC.


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## enduro (Oct 14, 2009)

You can get MLV from a distributer called Shoemaker drywall supplies in Canada. 

Canada Soundproofing Distributor - Sound Isolation Company


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I'd buy a sample piece and drive around with it for a few weeks before committing.


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

This work well if you can find it there.. dB-3 4 ft. x 8 ft. Acoustical Barrier-DB348X96BX at The Home Depot


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I'd buy a sample piece and drive around with it for a few weeks before committing.


 Really good advise.
I'm one of the three people Don referred to in a similar thread.


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## ultramag (Oct 27, 2013)

i will be doing just that,so far i have glued a layer of CCF on both sides of the rubber panel and it has held together,if it holds up i plan on securing it between the door card and inner door skin panel,but firstly covering both inner and outer door skin with B-Quiet ultimate using the formula of 25-40% coverage.if i don't have enough room between the card and the inner skin i will just go with the rubber sheet against the B-quiet....


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I'd buy a sample piece and drive around with it for a few weeks before committing.


Just to be more clear. The purpose of this is to expose that small sample to the enclosed heat of the car. I guess a better way to see how it fairs is to leave it on the dash, on a towel to protect the dash just in case, and let it bake there all day. Then step inside and see if you notice an odor.


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Just to be more clear. The purpose of this is to expose that small sample to the enclosed heat of the car. I guess a better way to see how it fairs is to leave it on the dash, on a towel to protect the dash just in case, and let it bake there all day. Then step inside and see if you notice an odor.


Xactly;
We had to remove all the MLV from our Subaru install.
Had bought some non-automotive commercial building soundproofing roll product. Gave it months, but the industrial "vinyl" smell never subsided.
We ripped it out and replaced with SDS MLV. 
No savings in the end the end with XYZ MLV. :blush:


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## ultramag (Oct 27, 2013)

Pitmaster: thanks for the heads up, the last thing i want to do is rip out some 'smelly" MLV.. But i have a hard time believing that SDS is the only source in North America that sells "odor less" MLV!!


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Deleted!


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## foscoe944 (Oct 9, 2013)

ultramag said:


> I know there are many posts on this topic and i have read them all,but i was in a local princess auto store up here which is like a harbor freight store in the USA and i came across these anti-fatigue mats,they appear to be a combination of vinyl/rubber with a closed cell foam core and they are cheap with no odor 3x4ft @ 7.99 each and heavy,was thinking of bonding this to my layer of B-Quiet ultimate and then the B_Quiet on the interior door structure,i cannot locate "real" MLV in my province and to have it shipped from eatern Canada costs the same as the product!!! I also seen rolls of ribbed or diamond pattern rubber floor runners any good as a replacement???


I actually did almost this exact same thing in my house. I was trying to block sound coming through a closed door in a room where I often play music loudly. I did this before I started reading this forum, so I didn’t really know what I was doing, but I attached B-Quiet Extreme 2 layers thick to some of these anti-fatique EVA foam mats:
Amazon.com: We Sell Mats Interlocking Anti-Fatigue EVA Foam Floor Mat, Charcoal Gray: Sports & Outdoors 

And I cut it to the exact size of the door. It made absolutely zero difference. My sound measurements were crude-ish, my ear and my dB meter on my iPhone, but I’ll say this, a rolled up towel at the door bottom gap made a 2 dB difference which was clearly audible. My huge door mat/B-Quiet barrier made 0 dB difference nor could I hear any difference at all. 

My understanding of B-Quiet and other CLD products is that they are designed reduce the resonance of metal panels, they do not block sound at all. And sticking it to something that isn’t stiff enough to resonate would have no affect. So only put the B-Quiet on metal, not on the barrier.


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

ultramag said:


> Pitmaster: thanks for the heads up, the last thing i want to do is rip out some 'smelly" MLV.. But i have a hard time believing that SDS is the only source in North America that sells "odor less" MLV!!


They are not. Just do a surch for Virgen mass loaded vinyl...
Heres one...
Mass Loaded Vinyl Soundproofing Material for Walls, Floors, Ceilings, No Oder, Virgin Material - Trademark Soundproofing


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

Virgin ^ lol...


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## ultramag (Oct 27, 2013)

Thanks Shadowmarx: They have exc. pricing and free shippingl, i think i will order the self adhesive 100 ft. roll


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## Shadowmarx (Feb 12, 2012)

ultramag said:


> Thanks Shadowmarx: They have exc. pricing and free shippingl, i think i will order the self adhesive 100 ft. roll


Right under the first paragraph on the page I linked it reads ... 
"Our MLV is manufactured in the USA from Virgin Material and is virtually odorless. "


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i have never seen lead sheets.. am i missing out on something?


lead sheets has been made for decades, for heavy underground cables. 
found some:http://www.zipmetals.com/Lead-Sheet-18-x-36-x-48-QQ-L-201F-GRADE-C-_p_63.html


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Jazzi said:


> For example, Cascade Audio Engineering makes a product called VB-3 which is a lead sheet suspended between a layer of foam on either side.
> 
> Multilayered composite material for cars


15mil lead foil they should say, it`s too thin and light to make any measurable difference.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> 15mil lead foil they should say, it`s too thin and light to make any measurable difference.


Isn't it the mass that matters in a barrier? If so, it does say it weighs the same as an equivalent piece of MLV.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Isn't it the mass that matters in a barrier? If so, it does say it weighs the same as an equivalent piece of MLV.


correct. equivalent in what thickness of MLV 15mil?


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## atownmack (Mar 20, 2013)

can mass loaded vinyl be used in your trunk? Would it absorb your bass and give you less output?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

atownmack said:


> can mass loaded vinyl be used in your trunk? Would it absorb your bass and give you less output?


It can be used anywhere, even vertical areas like walls and doors, where you want to reduce noise coming from outside.

It does not absorb, it blocks and sound will bounce from it, it's never left uncovered since there will be carpet over it or foam avoiding that issue.


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## atownmack (Mar 20, 2013)

Alrojoca said:


> It can be used anywhere, even vertical areas like walls and doors, where you want to reduce noise coming from outside.
> 
> It does not absorb, it blocks and sound will bounce from it, it's never left uncovered since there will be carpet over it or foam avoiding that issue.


I guess Ill give it a shot in my trunk then.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> It can be used anywhere, even vertical areas like walls and doors, where you want to reduce noise coming from outside.
> 
> It does not absorb, it blocks and sound will bounce from it, it's never left uncovered since there will be carpet over it or foam avoiding that issue.


Wrong! It converts sound energy to heat and dissipates it not reflecting it.


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

atownmack said:


> I guess Ill give it a shot in my trunk then.





Alrojoca said:


> It can be used anywhere, even vertical areas like walls and doors, where you want to reduce noise coming from outside.
> 
> It does not absorb, it blocks and sound will bounce from it, it's never left uncovered since there will be carpet over it or foam avoiding that issue.





Victor_inox said:


> Wrong! It converts sound energy to heat and dissipates it not reflecting it.


Actually CLD tiles convert sound energy to heat, and MLV blocks the sound. True that.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Pitmaster said:


> Actually CLD tiles convert sound energy to heat, and MLV blocks the sound. True that.


Sound waives either reflected dissipated or transmitted, WTF blocks the sound means. 
sound isolation it`s material ability to absorb(dissipate) sound waves. CDL prevent resonances by shifting resonance frequency of applied material and dissipating sound energy.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Maybe atownmack should go to Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown to learn the differences among the materials, how to use them, install them come up with his own conclusion.

I was told not to leave MLV uncovered in the inner door facing the outer door because it can create a resonance or back wave, therefore using MLV to cover openings is not a good idea unless we add CCF over it or CLD but that costs way too much. I went with either galvanized sheet metal or aluminum and put CLD on the side facing the outer door. Most guys put the CLD on the inner door facing the door card, It looks great but it is not as effective just helps with rattles or vibrating 

Interesting about the heat, how many degrees hotter does it get inside a door treated with CLD?, that is new to me or I failed to pay attention if I read it before.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> Maybe atownmack should go to Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown to learn the differences among the materials, how to use them, install them come up with his own conclusion.
> 
> I was told not to leave MLV uncovered in the inner door facing the outer door because it can create a resonance or back wave, therefore using MLV to cover openings is not a good idea unless we add CCF over it or CLD but that costs way too much. I went with either galvanized sheet metal or aluminum and put CLD on the side facing the outer door. Most guys put the CLD on the inner door facing the door card, It looks great but it is not as effective just helps with rattles or vibrating
> 
> Interesting about the heat, how many degrees hotter does it get inside a door treated with CLD?, that is new to me or I failed to pay attention if I read it before.


He certainly should, nice tread, explaining how to without getting deep into physics. how many degrees? depending on energy absorbed, practically not enough to get measurable numbers. 
good readingPractical Soundproofing


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> correct. equivalent in what thickness of MLV 15mil?


15mil thick lead is 1 pound per square foot. Same as the normal 1/8" thick mlv. Cascade actually provides STC ratings, and the 15mil thick lead performs slightly better than the 1 pound per cubic foot mlv they sell.


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## ultramag (Oct 27, 2013)

Well i finally pulled the trigger and bought my "Virgin"MLV from trademark soundproofing self adhesive,no odor 1lb. and bought the Peel and stick CCF from Raamaudio sponsor here and used the 20% discount code,now just have to wait till it gets here,before i can start my project,i think i will use the velcro patch securing method Don talks about off of SDS to hang the MLV from the inner door skins as he told me the mlv is so heavy it can tear the face sheet of aluminum off the dampener in my case the B-quiet ultimate will be attached to the CCF then the inner door skin.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 15mil thick lead is 1 pound per square foot. Same as the normal 1/8" thick mlv. Cascade actually provides STC ratings, and the 15mil thick lead performs slightly better than the 1 pound per cubic foot mlv they sell.


Good to know. I would think it would be easier to work with especially on horizontal surfaces. How is the price compared to MLV ?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Cascades vb3 (lead/foam composite) is slightly over twice the cost of vb4 (mlv/ foam composite). The vb3 lead composite conforms to irregular shapes MUCH more easily then the MLV, and that is it's primary advantage, though it is also slighlty more effective as a sound barrier as well. You can "save" a bit of money by using the vb3 only where you need to conform to irregular surface (tranny tunnel for example) and to use the vb4 for flatter surfaces (floor pans, etc)


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## country_hick (Mar 15, 2014)

I know this is late for the original poster but perhaps others may find this useful. I have spent a LOT of time researching trying to find the best products for soundproofing my old diesel truck.

Lead is poisonous. It always was the best sound blocker available. Mass Loaded Vinyl was developed as a non-toxic replacement. MLV is heavy just like lead which can be an issue in a vehicle worried about weight or MPG. 

I found another sound proofing product called MuteX Specs and STC Ratings for Top Sound Proof Materials and Products - MuteX soundproofing that weighs only 4 ounces to a square foot. Compared to 1 or 2 pounds per square foot that is a huge savings in both weight and shipping costs compared to both lead and MLV. As a bonus MuteX costs less than MLV or lead to purchase. It is sold for use in buildings. It is rated FMVSS-302 which is a Federal Motor Vehicle fire Safety Standard. The downside of MuteX is it will hold water if it gets wet. One side is a shiny resin that should not absorb water while the other side is all fuzzy.I got a small sample and did not notice any smell.

Below is a chart that shows that you want from a sound proofing material. A real measurable drop in Decibels by product. In real life you will get less sound reduction. One site said to expect 1/2 to 3/4 the DB drop in real life. However, in a car or truck it may even be less than that. With windows and door seals leaking sound you can not stop it all.

Acoustic Transmission Loss (dB)

```
Frequency (Hz) and then the DB drop at that HZ. 

(MLV numbers will vary a few DB by manufacturer)

MLV
100     250 500 1000 2000 4000 (HZ) STC
 16      17  21   26   31   36       26 MLV 1# (DB reduction at HZ)
 19      19  27   34   38   43       31 MLV 2#  

Lead
125     250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000 STC  
 19      20  24   27   33   39   43  26  (1/64" 1.0 lb./sq. ft.)
 22      24  29   33   40   43   49  31  (1/32" 2.0 lb./sq. ft.)

MuteX
125 160 250 500  800 1600 3150 5000 STC
 17  16  22  30   37   44   50   58  32
```
Product Information | floor muffler also has a product with a IIC 74 / STC 73 rating which is phenomenal. I have no idea if this stinks or not. I sent an email asking for a chart showing db reductions at the standard hz as shown above. This looks like a promising alternative to lead and MLV. I am hoping to find out of this is really as good as it sounds and lightweight.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

country_hick said:


> I know this is late for the original poster but perhaps others may find this useful. I have spent a LOT of time researching trying to find the best products for soundproofing my old diesel truck.
> 
> Lead is poisonous. It always was the best sound blocker available. Mass Loaded Vinyl was developed as a non-toxic replacement. MLV is heavy just like lead which can be an issue in a vehicle worried about weight or MPG.
> 
> ...



Interesting, not quite cheaper when I can get good MLV for $1.20 a foot in my area, also the average weight added per car hardly ever exceeds 70 lbs. if it blocks noise without having to add foam or decoupling material I would say it is worth considering it.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I would be that 73 rating is at a high frequency, and that its not the average. I went to the website looking for specifics, but they are very vague, always something that worries me.

I would be curious about mutex, as I do plan on testing mlv type products and alternatives at a later date.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

That MuteX stuff is a decoupling layer, meant to provide an air gap between two masses. Those STC figures are probably with drywall installed, which acts in a similar fashion as MLV would in their application.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Also without knowing the details about the material description and content, there is no way to know if it can resist the extreme temperatures in a car, humidity and other factors that are not found inside a building or home.

Maybe someone can give them a call to find out if it even can be used in a car and if it resists or blocks liquids

It will be nice if toostubborn tests it.


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## MetricMuscle (Sep 16, 2013)

Shadowmarx said:


> This work well if you can find it there.. dB-3 4 ft. x 8 ft. Acoustical Barrier-DB348X96BX at The Home Depot


So, what is the final conclusion about this material?

Sure is nice and readily available.


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## country_hick (Mar 15, 2014)

DB-3 is asphalt based.

MSDS here. http://dbsoundcontrol.com/pdf/02A.pdf

Unless there was additional testing done the STC ratings are garbage for our usage. They tested several times BUT only combined with certain wall types. That means you have zero idea what reduction was due to the wall and what was due to the db-3.
Sound Control Solutions ? Technical Resources | dB Sound Control

Adding more drywall is cheaper and probably as effective as adding a certain amount of MLV.

In theory you could buy some drywall soak it with water so it becomes pliable and put it on your floorboards to cut down noise. The problem would be the weight, thickness, and working with it on curves.


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## starbai (Jan 28, 2010)

ultramag said:


> Well i finally pulled the trigger and bought my "Virgin"MLV from trademark soundproofing self adhesive,no odor 1lb. and bought the Peel and stick CCF from Raamaudio sponsor here and used the 20% discount code,now just have to wait till it gets here,before i can start my project,i think i will use the velcro patch securing method Don talks about off of SDS to hang the MLV from the inner door skins as he told me the mlv is so heavy it can tear the face sheet of aluminum off the dampener in my case the B-quiet ultimate will be attached to the CCF then the inner door skin.


jesus everyone's names for products make this stuff so confusing. So Raamaudo Rammat is essently CLD and their Ensolite peel and stick is essentially their CCF? is that correct?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes that is correct though different products of the same type have different effectiveness in doing what they are supposed to do.

If you have not yet and are so inclined, and have PLENTY of time to read, check out this thread--

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...isons/146403-sound-deadening-cld-testing.html


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

country_hick said:


> DB-3 is asphalt based.
> 
> MSDS here. http://dbsoundcontrol.com/pdf/02A.pdf
> 
> ...


Or you COULD use sheet lead, which has a far greater density and is even more flexible than either MLV.

It is density that STOPS sound transmission.

In fact Cascade audio still makes a product that includes a layer of lead in stead of MLV. It IS expensive though!!

Cascade Audio VB-3 Formable Floor Barrier Material


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

why must you bring back like 4 different threads about the same subject..


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