# Horn Install Tweaks and Effects on Sound



## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Little shift left or right here or there, pushed back to firewall or dash front, tilted up or parallel to ground. Most horn installs aren't optimized the first go round. So when you get them in and decide to take it up another notch what do you do and whats the outcome of the sound?

After reading the horn essque thread I see that this exact topic is being discussed within the same day. Someone was thinking like me at the same time. Thats crazy!


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## veleno (Sep 16, 2006)

Even after looking at the various horn installs posted in the other thread, it seems like there is no real "ideal" place to mount a horn (the first time and get great results). Am I right? So now this leads me to the next set of questions for those that posted pictures.

1. What does stuffing the opening of the horn with foam do for sound? (maybe it lessens the impact or in your face sound?)

2. Why or what does cutting the face (what you see when mounted) do for sound? I saw one install where it looked like it was cut at an angle...

3. I thought the best place for install was right and the bottom edge just below the dash where it starts to go upward. From the pictures I see most of them pushed far in and under and as far left/right as possible. Does this mounting work better for some reason?


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## munkittrick (Jan 7, 2008)

Normally, I'd let this question go to a more frequent responder of DIYMA, but since I helped design, and then competed with the original HLCD car audio system in 1984, I have a pretty unique perspective. 



veleno said:


> 1. What does stuffing the opening of the horn with foam do for sound? (maybe it lessens the impact or in your face sound?)


 Short/Wrong answer; polyfill will buffer the sound upon exit of the driver and absorb a few standing reflections and lessen the overall output slightly to make a somewhat more "linear" sound.

Real/Correct answer; it will absorb portions of the soundwave that would be far more advantageous to control via EQ. In 1984, I did an expose in Car Audio and Electronics where I actually thought that I had an idea of what these HLCD speakers were going to do to the car audio industry. At the time, they were very much like club-style horns where the driver was mounted in the center and was simply angled to the preferred exit of the horn body. Back then, the polyfill DID add a bit of control to a really raspy and bad mannered speaker, but as the designs progressed and SpeakerWorks got the horn more optimized, the polyfill became less and less useful. By the time that Veritas and Image Dynamics had hit the market, the horn body had all but defeated any need to kill off any standing reflections and the directionality of the speakers was spot-on by moving the bracketing slightly. At this point, polyfil might reduce the output of the horn driver, but it's far, far more accurate to use a dedicated amplifier, gain and 1/3rd octave eq without any obstacles in the horn body.





veleno said:


> 2. Why or what does cutting the face (what you see when mounted) do for sound? I saw one install where it looked like it was cut at an angle...


 Bluntly, today's horn bodies are optimized for the best possible sound with a given driver. When the manufacturer goes to market with a "budget" HLCD system, they've done their homework and found what they believe to be the optimum balance for a horn body/driver combo, or in some cases a no-holds-barred system where the horn body throws fitment to the wind for sound quality and accuracy based on a driver's superior sound reproduction. In the cheaper systems, it's quite often necessary to cut the horn body for fitment due to their often awkward mounting location, so it's quite common to see horn bodies modified slightly to fit the driver's car. In the other case, sound fanatics....like myself will modify the car to suit the sound. So, in essence, it boils down to the mounting, the horn body/driver combination and the level of insanity of the listener.





veleno said:


> 3. I thought the best place for install was right and the bottom edge just below the dash where it starts to go upward. From the pictures I see most of them pushed far in and under and as far left/right as possible. Does this mounting work better for some reason?


 Optimally, the "best" location is as far apart and as far away from the listener as possible. Since sound is directional and the horn bodies focus the output of the driver to reach the listening area accurately, the best means of use is to stick to those two rules of thumb;

Rule One: Mount the horn drivers at the point where they'll be the farthest apart from each other.

Rule Two: Mount the horn drivers at the point where they will be the farthest from the listening area.


Now, the place where the "rules" of HLCD get fuzzy go something like this. The driver's mouth opening should be axially balanced with the other. In other words, they should be as closely matched at the mounting point so that the sound output will reach an invisible center line in the middle of the listening environment simultaneously. The horn bodes allow for some flexibility, but the driver's mouth is the TRUE exit point that needs to be structured for optimum staging.

Next, the horn bodies can be mounted at the lower edge of a car's dashboard for fitment, and it has been said to provide a smoother roll-off of sound to the listening area, but it has been my experience that if rules one and two are followed, this is only minimally beneficial. It's almost never the case with the higher-end systems, but when the listener uses a mini-horn body or a modified horn body, luck will sometimes play to their favor and have rules one and two be spot-on and the edge of the dash meet the horn body. This is rare, but it's nice when you see it happen.

The bottom line in all of this is that sound reproduction is very, very, VERY subjective and the mounting of the horns is often done to suit a listener's taste, but the goal of an HLCD system is not to conform to the listener, but to conform the listener to optimal sound quality, staging and accuracy. Once you hear the sound as it was made to sound by the artists who recorded and produced it, you gain an entirely new perspective on sound....and you will never sit in a car audio system and be satisfied with the sound that other systems offer.

Enjoy!


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## [email protected] (Nov 7, 2010)

What's your name, munkittrick?


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## munkittrick (Jan 7, 2008)

JOey Knapp said:


> What's your name, munkittrick?


Michael Munkittrick. I used to run with the Veritas crowd and later with the Team ID. Lately, I've been working in high-end home theater sound design.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

well thank you very much for chiming in and we appreciate your help and guidance.

it would be cool to see some pictures from way back in the day if you happen to have some, but if not i understand.

thanks again!


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## munkittrick (Jan 7, 2008)

req said:


> well thank you very much for chiming in and we appreciate your help and guidance.
> 
> it would be cool to see some pictures from way back in the day if you happen to have some, but if not i understand.
> 
> thanks again!


Thanks. I do have some photos of both of my competition vehicles, but they're in storage at the moment.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

well, if you ever happen to be in your storage area and remember, snag those out of there and get them up here for everyone to marvel at 

if you need a place to put them, i have a photobucket account that i would be glad to store them on for you.

just drop the word!

thanks man!


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## munkittrick (Jan 7, 2008)

req said:


> get them up here for everyone to marvel at


I doubt that there'd be much to "marvel at" but it is kind of cool to break out the albums once in a while to see the changes and progress of the industry. I'll try to get over there this week.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

take your time man 

seeing this stuff is like candy for me. i dont know why but i love these oldschool installs.


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## lancewhitefield (Sep 29, 2009)

Michael thanks alot for your post and explanation - I am currently working on my install with the IDs mini and this information truely through some light on the subject.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Munkittrick, Thank You for that great post. Those two rules prove true most definately. Now who's gonna take a hammer to their fenderwell to get their mini bodies as deep as possible and post the outcome on the sound for us? I nominate REQ for the task 

Also munkittrick, as for stuffing the horns, its not quite with polyfill but with actual foam in the form of a "plug". Its something Dr. Geddes does in his world class waveguides after realizing high order modes affect accurate sound reproduction in his speakers. Another member of this forum has posted measurements of some before and after results on some USD waveguides(memory may be a little off) and it sure did smooth out the curve. As for sound I don't remember his perspective there but I doubt that the stuffing hurt anything other than efficiency. Cant wait to see the pics of your comp install. Thanks


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## veleno (Sep 16, 2006)

munkittrick, thanks for that great post/answers/tips to my questions.

Since you've had experience with both Veritas and ID which do you prefer? Pros/Cons of each? I read that the Veritas bodies are great and wondered if that's a better choice vs the ID gear.

Glad to have you on here and looking forward to seeing those pictures!


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## rezdawgaudio72 (Apr 9, 2010)

Munkittrick,thats an name that just screams HLCD,Thanks for your insite here,cant wait to read & see more of what you've done in the past & present,thanks


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

ncv6coupe said:


> I nominate REQ for the task


Oh boy lol, well I am getting some new stuff in the mail, and a 2x4 and a hammer might come in handy lol.

But back on topic, wouldn't putting them in deep cause a problem in stage width due to very immideate reflections on the kick panel/firewall to the outboard of the car?

I mean, putting them in. Deep gains pathlengths and general imaging and focus, but having that reflection to the side, doesn't that detract from stage width? There's only so much that can be done with sound absorbtion in that small of an area...

So would smoothing the transition on the outboard horn mouth help with width? When thw weather gets warmer I could expiremtn with clay and stuff but its like 30-40 out at noon and I don't have the luxury of a shop.

=(


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## Louisiana_CRX (Feb 18, 2008)

I have 3 diffrent sets of Horns right now BNIB I guess I need to install a set in something...so I can start tweaking...lol


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

ncv6coupe said:


> Munkittrick, Thank You for that great post. Those two rules prove true most definately. Now who's gonna take a hammer to their fenderwell to get their mini bodies as deep as possible and post the outcome on the sound for us?


already been done. Talk to any of the more recent ID guys from 2000 and up. Thats how we've all installed horns.
Check thehatedguys pics in other thread.

I did basically the same thing except didnt make a fiberglass mold of the fender. in my BMW the horns are so far under the dash--they cant be seen. even if you bend down and look, they really were not that visible to someone who doesnt know what they are looking for.

you heard my car, did you ever see the horns? or even feel them with your feet? you had them big long lanky rasta legs jammon to the music:drummer:

but in every install except the very 1st time installing horns, my horns have always touched the firewall and the compression driver resided inside the inner fender.

in my Eclipse, if you look at the pics, the clutch was even cut and a bracket was welded in to move it closer to the gas pedal. (I did it in My Integra 1st)
It allowed me to push the horns as far back as possible and also get a large midrange or midbass speaker in the kick panel.

Alot of this is pretty common sense kind of stuff. when dealing with a speaker that is controlling dispersion, if you have it closer to you, it will sound more in your face or very forward sounding. moving them farther away lessens that.

moving them wider, improves width.

with the ID horns, the outside flare is not very pronounced, so reflection off the kick panel hasnt ever been a huge concern. you could use some reticulating foam at that edge to help diffuse the sound some at the edges to reduce the reflection or cover that area with some 1" acoustic foam.

center console is the bigger concern bc of the hard cross fire angle


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Mic10is said:


> already been done. Talk to any of the more recent ID guys from 2000 and up. Thats how we've all installed horns.
> Check thehatedguys pics in other thread.
> 
> I did basically the same thing except didnt make a fiberglass mold of the fender. in my BMW the horns are so far under the dash--they cant be seen. even if you bend down and look, they really were not that visible to someone who doesnt know what they are looking for.
> ...


Matt recommends mounting the mini-horns to the bottom front edge of the dash on one of his youtube videos.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> Matt recommends mounting the mini-horns to the bottom front edge of the dash on one of his youtube videos.


for simplicity sake. 

not sure how many people who have never installed horns before would feel comfortable, cutting a hole in their inner fender, welding brackets, moving a clutch etc....


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> for simplicity sake.
> 
> not sure how many people who have never installed horns before would feel comfortable, cutting a hole in their inner fender, welding brackets, moving a clutch etc....


True, there's a certain commitment involved with getting optimal placement. I did away with my parking brake for that reason, it simply restricted getting mine as wide and deep as I wanted so it had to go.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

i removed my parking break mounted my horn then remounted the parking break. relocated my fuse box. as far out as far back is the main key when putting in horns. most sound good outa the box. tweaking it makes it sound better. better staging and imaging.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

Well let's say that my glovebox and knee bolsters are off right now lol. =)

Waiting on some things in the mail right now =)


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

you ever notice when you wait for something it never comes


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

My first horn install recently done, moved the parking brake (PITA), rerouted some wiring harnesses, trimed the cover on the HVAC system, etc...around 8 hours of pretty neck stiffening work. 

Next install will take half of that at the most in our C6 Vert.

Then the one to follow, C5 Z06 chassis, cut and stretch it 16" already ripped the factory firewall out, built a steel one, mids will be beside the engine, horns right above them, putting a 53 Studebaker body on the chassis....this is a bit of a long term project, to say the least but IT MUST HAVE HORNS

Rick


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

ncv6coupe said:


> Munkittrick, Thank You for that great post. Those two rules prove true most definately. Now who's gonna take a hammer to their fenderwell to get their mini bodies as deep as possible and post the outcome on the sound for us? I nominate REQ for the task
> 
> Also munkittrick, as for stuffing the horns, its not quite with polyfill but with actual foam in the form of a "plug". Its something Dr. Geddes does in his world class waveguides after realizing high order modes affect accurate sound reproduction in his speakers. Another member of this forum has posted measurements of some before and after results on some USD waveguides(memory may be a little off) and it sure did smooth out the curve. As for sound I don't remember his perspective there but I doubt that the stuffing hurt anything other than efficiency. Cant wait to see the pics of your comp install. Thanks


That was me. Google "diyaudio homster" for the thread.

I can't think of a single good reason not to fill a horn. All you lose is a little efficiency. I was working on the crossover for my new waveguides this afternoon, and had to pad them down 20dB just to match the midrange.

Car audio horns are hideously compromised, so every little thing that you can do to help will go a long way.

I measured a set of car audio horns and a set of QSC horns at the same time, and it was interesting that the car audio horns measured quite decently, but the QSC horns were audibly cleaner. So there's a lot more to a good horn than just getting the frequency response correct.

Also, if anyone is interested in messing around with inexpensive horns, the QSC are just unbeatable. They're less than ten dollars each, and at that price, I don't feel guilty if I ruin one or five. They're incredibly good, at any price.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> already been done. Talk to any of the more recent ID guys from 2000 and up. Thats how we've all installed horns.
> Check thehatedguys pics in other thread.
> 
> I did basically the same thing except didnt make a fiberglass mold of the fender. in my BMW the horns are so far under the dash--they cant be seen. even if you bend down and look, they really were not that visible to someone who doesnt know what they are looking for.
> ...


I am having some very good luck with extremely unorthodox speaker locations on my new project. At the moment my waveguides are flanking the center console, against the firewalls, less than eight inches(!) apart.

All the math and the explanations are on my forum (audiopsychosis.)

Go to ambiophonics.org for explanations on how/why this works.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> in my BMW the horns are so far under the dash--they cant be seen. even if you bend down and look, they really were not that visible to someone who doesnt know what they are looking for.
> 
> you heard my car, did you ever see the horns? or even feel them with your feet? you had them big long lanky rasta legs jammon to the music:drummer:
> 
> ...


:laugh4: 

Mic speaketh the truth, VERY stealthy install. Its hard to have bias during a demo when you don't know what you're listening to. NO HORN HONK WHATSOEVER!!!!!!! T/A and EQ alone would be hard pressed to get that 2 seater sound locked in that easily. Considering all this here's what I've come up with....


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I am having some very good luck with extremely unorthodox speaker locations on my new project. At the moment my waveguides are flanking the center console, against the firewalls, less than eight inches(!) apart.
> 
> All the math and the explanations are on my forum (audiopsychosis.)
> 
> Go to ambiophonics.org for explanations on how/why this works.


:blushatrick of course it was you who did that experiment. I know I've read about stuff then it disappears in the forum never to be found on search mode again. But anyways. 

I've thought about some crazy locations also. The accord really does have a LOT of wiggle room down below the dash after you rip the carpets and underdash pads out. You on the other hand refuse to even remove a screw for your install. Thats what makes your findings soo incredible. (off to psychosis to check out the madness)


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## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Patrick
any way you can post pics or a quick sketch of what youre talking about on your latest project as far as the horns being mounted?... 
I am very intrigued by the explanation and im not even 100% sure how theyre put in
Im picturing something to the effect of the left vs right switched and them hugging the center console?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

likemytunes said:


> Patrick
> any way you can post pics or a quick sketch of what youre talking about on your latest project as far as the horns being mounted?...
> I am very intrigued by the explanation and im not even 100% sure how theyre put in
> Im picturing something to the effect of the left vs right switched and them hugging the center console?


I posted a quick explanation of why/how this works on my forum


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Patrick, could you post a link to you're website?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mmiller said:


> Patrick, could you post a link to you're website?


The ambiophonics thread that I referenced is here : Audio Psychosis • View topic - A Soundstage with Width and Depth.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

cajunner said:


> what if your car has no center console and a really shallow tranny tunnel?
> 
> I would think you could make enclosures that filled in that space?
> 
> ...


Oh I should have noted that if you're going to listen so far off axis, you need controlled directivity. Oblate spheroidal and conical waveguides offer that. You can do it with line arrays too.

I bought a JBL Control Now line array at Costco last week for fifty bucks, and it has really smooth response off-axis. It would be damn near ideal for listening off axis, if only it fit.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

cajunner said:


> where are you focusing the sound "off axis"?
> 
> I read how you placed your two-ways on your site, and it appears as though your are saying they are facing into the same-side kick panel.
> 
> ...


If possible, could you subscribe to my forum and ask the questions there? It's OT for this thread, and this subforum.

In a nutshell, the speakers were set up just like Biggs, but butted up against the center console, instead of the kick panel. Just as Biggs is listening over 45 degrees off axis, so am I. One of the reasons that it works is that the volume of the speakers doesn't change much, whether you're 45, 60, or even 90 degrees off axis. That's part of the trick.

Of course the main part is crosstalk cancellation via the center console.


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## Fully.lebay (Mar 23, 2011)

munkittrick said:


> Optimally, the "best" location is as far apart and as far away from the listener as possible. Since sound is directional and the horn bodies focus the output of the driver to reach the listening area accurately, the best means of use is to stick to those two rules of thumb;
> 
> Rule One: Mount the horn drivers at the point where they'll be the farthest apart from each other.
> 
> ...


Oohh .. very helpful guidance for beginner .. great .


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Here is a tip. Make sure you fill the gap between your horn body and dash if there is one. Even a piece of cardboard will work wonders. I know this has been mentioned in other threads but I think it should be here so we have one place to look for horn tips.

Here is another tip I have learned. Don't be afraid of putting more power to your midbasses, especially if your drivers aren't very efficient.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> If possible, could you subscribe to my forum and ask the questions there? It's OT for this thread, and this subforum.
> 
> In a nutshell, the speakers were set up just like Biggs, but butted up against the center console, instead of the kick panel. Just as Biggs is listening over 45 degrees off axis, so am I. One of the reasons that it works is that the volume of the speakers doesn't change much, whether you're 45, 60, or even 90 degrees off axis. That's part of the trick.
> 
> Of course the main part is crosstalk cancellation via the center console.


I really enjoy your DIY experiment Patrick!


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## Leonaudio (Jul 28, 2010)

asawendo said:


> I really enjoy your DIY experiment Patrick!


cannot agree more


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