# spent alot of money to sound like crap....



## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Upgraded my drivers to ultras,got a 505/701 combo..still sounds like crap..sounds midrangey,or like an old transistor radio..
I think I just need to go active..think the ultras are too loud..using the cd1ev2 passive right. Now on the -4db setting.
Could tell a noticable diff.when I swiched out the drivers today..were louder than the cd1ev2 I replaced.
Just thought with the 30 band eq I could tame them down some.

Any ideas on crossover point,does 1000k sound good,and the harsh frequency to start at?
Almost had it sounding good with the old drivers,the ultras must be more efficient.

Head unit:alpine 505/701 combo
Horns:full bodies w/ultra drivers
Midbass:dynaudio mw180


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

those passives DO nothing for a real compression driver.
they were designed to only have attenuation circuits for the Piezo Cd1E drivers,as well as with resistors inline so the amp would see a 4ohm or 2ohm load based on what mid was used. the Cd1E driver essentially had no real measurable impedance bc it was a piezo driver ie..the resistance was a lightbulb.

you need a dedicated amp for the horns. you dont need a big amp. anything 25-50watts will suffice.
Run them from around 1000 or 1200 and up at 24db/octave


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Cool,thanks..guess my zuki eleet 4 ch.will be plenty!!


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Like Mic says, there is no high pass for the compression driver just equalization and level attenuation for the CD1E V.2 driver. The CD1E driver load on the amp was capacitive so they were high passed by function of their load on the amplifier.

You can damage the compression drivers using them with those passive networks.

Eric


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> Like Mic says, there is no high pass for the compression driver just equalization and level attenuation for the CD1E V.2 driver. The CD1E driver load on the amp was capacitive so they were high passed by function of their load on the amplifier.
> 
> You can damage the compression drivers using them with those passive networks.
> 
> Eric


Thanks dude,glad I didnt turn it up that much when tuning..will run it actively tomorrow and see how that goes..so 1k is a good starting crossover point or can I go lower?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

With Full bodies you can go down to around 800hz or so with a steep slope ie. 24db...
The Dyn180s should play easily to 2khz and be a nice sounding combo.

that Zuki amp puts out alot of power.
you want to keep in mind that the compression drivers are about 108db efficient, compared to your Dyn 180 which are like 89db.
so you have roughly a 20db difference.

to help compensate, you'll need about 3 times more wattage to the mid than to the horns.
so if you have 25rms for the horns, youll need 75 to 100+ to the mids.

good ratio is usually 1:3:5 horns:mid:subs


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

Horns are horns. They have weird FR, which should be fixed with crossover/EQ.
They have a big "hump" in the FR, which should be taken care of in EQ or crossover.
I don't see how active classic-slope xover of greater than 1st-order could fix that hump.

I run my horns (which are just regular fullrange speakers in horn bodies) with passive xover. I cut them around 2.5kHz with 1st order, so i tame that "hump" passively (which takes place around 1kHz in my case). My mids run up to 1.1kHz, 1st order again.
I need to measure the things to get better integration, but it already sounds fine to my ears.

See the pics:


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Well wired it and ran more rca's and went active..not as harsh,but a ***** to tune..thanks for all the info guys!!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

cut 1.2k-2khz by 4-6db. 6.3 and 8k by 3db


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Eric Stevens said:


> Like Mic says, there is no high pass for the compression driver just equalization and level attenuation for the CD1E V.2 driver. The CD1E driver load on the amp was capacitive so they were high passed by function of their load on the amplifier.
> 
> You can damage the compression drivers using them with those passive networks.
> 
> Eric


you learn something new everyday. 

so if you cant use passives on these, then is active x-over the only way to go? can you run them with no x-overs on them?

on mine they say 8ohm compression driver right on the drivers, is this not true?

I am very confused now, I have been running 12dB/oct passives set at 1400Hz for months and it doesnt seem to have hurt them.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

minbari said:


> you learn something new everyday.
> 
> so if you cant use passives on these, then is active x-over the only way to go? can you run them with no x-overs on them?
> 
> ...


you can use a REAL passive crossover. the CSX1 passive that comes with the CD1E horns is not a real passive in the sense that it has no filtering for the horns whatsoever.
the Piezo driver used on the original CD1E use a lightbulb for resistance and have a natural roll off around 1000hz.
the CSX1 is primarily used bc it has inline resistors to provide a nominal load based on if you use a 4ohm or 2ohm mid with the horn. It also has some attenuation circuits to cut the level of the horns, but it has no filtering

THis ONLY pertains to the original CD1E and the CSX passive used with the set


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

whew! seems like I am good to go then. I will check, but I think I have the CD1E v3 (which I understand is a real compression driver) and I am using the crossovers that came with my XS65 comp set.


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Sounding better,still alittle "tinny"...but better!!goes pretty loud too!!


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

pickup1 said:


> Sounding better,still alittle "tinny"...but better!!goes pretty loud too!!


Might be a lack of lower mid and mid-bass energy rather than a peak that needs to get cut. Try turning up the midbass on the amp or processor or turn the horns down some.

Eric


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

On my 701,the horns are at -8 & the midbass is at -3.on my zuki amp,the gain for the horns are at 1/4,& the midbass about 1/2.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Bring the midbass up to -1 or 0 and take a listen.

Eric


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> Might be a lack of lower mid and mid-bass energy rather than a peak that needs to get cut. Try turning up the midbass on the amp or processor or turn the horns down some.
> 
> Eric


This^

Although my system always sounded good, I had been plagued by a lack in that lower end "oomph" that we all seem to crave. Eric has always been a proponent of a higher sub low pass than many others. I tried and tried to make 80hz work and always went back to 50 or 60hz. Just recently I raised the level of my mids SUBSTANTIALLY. Now with 80hz sub low pass and mid high pass my system sounds better than ever.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

DanMan said:


> This^
> 
> Although my system always sounded good, I had been plagued by a lack in that lower end "oomph" that we all seem to crave. Eric has always been a proponent of a higher sub low pass than many others. I tried and tried to make 80hz work and always went back to 50 or 60hz. Just recently I raised the level of my mids SUBSTANTIALLY. Now with 80hz sub low pass and mid high pass my system sounds better than ever.


yup, 50hz LP on subs makes it REALLY hard to integrate them into the system (unless you have a dedicated 8" or something to fill the gap to the midbasses) most midbasses will not play that low with any amount of power handling.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

Yeah, man. Intuitively, having the fronts play as low as possible seems right. Many sq competitors talk about running 6-7" mids down to 40hz. Maybe I listen too LOUD.

The x69's shine with a higher xover point and finally handing over to the subs without a big gap puts my mind at ease.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

DanMan said:


> Yeah, man. Intuitively, having the fronts play as low as possible seems right. Many sq competitors talk about running 6-7" mids down to 40hz. Maybe I listen too LOUD.
> 
> The x69's shine with a higher xover point and finally handing over to the subs without a big gap puts my mind at ease.


So you managed to make that sub transition smooth? I remember you (if I'm not mistaken) asking on the ID forum if the IB15 motor topology (being different than the X69) was the culprit in not being able to have a convincing upfront bass. 

Kelvin


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

S3T said:


> Horns are horns. They have weird FR, which should be fixed with crossover/EQ.
> They have a big "hump" in the FR, which should be taken care of in EQ or crossover.
> I don't see how active classic-slope xover of greater than 1st-order could fix that hump.
> 
> ...


I did that back in the day too... Just took a full range driver and created my own horn and bolted it right to the cone. This was long before I learned about coupling chambers and phase plugs and directivity etc...

It's a fun experiment though


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Got the whole system sounding decent,it still needs something...it def.goes "stupid loud" now active plus that nice zuki amp....
Just want to that Eric and everone else for their time & knowledge!!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

pickup1 said:


> Got the whole system sounding decent,it still needs something...it def.goes "stupid loud" now active plus that nice zuki amp....
> Just want to that Eric and everone else for their time & knowledge!!


What are you running for a sub? Do yourself a favor and get a real midbass.  (read: pro audio). Scoop up something that has a higher efficiency- it will get much louder than the mid you're running off the same power and will have a different characteristic that IMO pairs up with horns much better. It will not dig as deep, but it will have no problem getting down to 80 or 100hz where you can easily cross in your sub. Go with as much cone area as you can fit wherever you have your midbass installed. If the most you can fit is an 8" driver, look into:

JBL 2118H
B&C 8NDL51
Faital W8N8-150 (or 200)
18Sound 8MB400/8MB420

If you can fit a 10", there are versions of almost all those drivers in 10". If you can fit a 12" in 1.5cf vented, tuned to 65hz, and are looking for 126db from a pair of midbass that leave your subs questioning their testicular fortitude, go with the JBL 2204H.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> So you managed to make that sub transition smooth? I remember you (if I'm not mistaken) asking on the ID forum if the IB15 motor topology (being different than the X69) was the culprit in not being able to have a convincing upfront bass.
> 
> Kelvin


Yes. I got things sounding to where I am very happy. Enough so that it's time to change things up again.

Actually it was suggested to me that the AE drivers may not have been getting on nicely with the ID drivers for that reason. I don't know enough about those things to formulate such an idea. Anyway, the pairing works very well for me.


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

Fo subs,I got 2 mb quart 15's running off an old earthquake shredder. Don't think I could fit a 10 in the door without major doorpanel cutting.


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