# Does anyone know home audio? I have a few questions.



## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

So here is my dilemma. I have been given some home audio equipment from my father-in-law and I want to expand a bit but don't want to over pay for crap. 

He gave me a Harmon Kardon AV240 Receiver/Amp and an Bose Acoustamass 6. So I have these 5 single cube things that work great in my living room as they are easily hidden. They will work even better when I remodel it as they can tuck them above my rope-lit crown molding. Unfortunately they are Bose. Not bad, but not what an audiophile would consider good. I want to expand to 7.1 as my receiver is fully capable of doing so, but am not sure what route to go. 
I am looking at just getting the VCS-10 center channel and adding some double stacked cubes to the front stage and calling it a day as the room is only 20x30 and the receiver has the ability to TA. 

Just wanted to get some of your guys thoughts and suggestions here. Thanks a ton, 

Jesse


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

I personally hate Bose more than Apple so my views are skewed, but FAR greater SQ can be attained for far less money than the Bose. I built my L&R, Sub, and Center speakers myself then I used the Dayton B652's for my satellite speakers in my 7.1 setup. My Onkyo reciever does TA via a setup mic. I would look at the impedance acceptable by the bose unit and try to find some floorstanders for your L&R or at least a pair of studio monitors.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

splaudiohz said:


> So here is my dilemma. I have been given some home audio equipment from my father-in-law and I want to expand a bit but don't want to over pay for crap.
> 
> He gave me a Harmon Kardon AV240 Receiver/Amp and an Bose Acoustamass 6. So I have these 5 single cube things that work great in my living room as they are easily hidden. They will work even better when I remodel it as they can tuck them above my rope-lit crown molding. Unfortunately they are Bose. Not bad, but not what an audiophile would consider good. I want to expand to 7.1 as my receiver is fully capable of doing so, but am not sure what route to go.
> I am looking at just getting the VCS-10 center channel and adding some double stacked cubes to the front stage and calling it a day as the room is only 20x30 and the receiver has the ability to TA.
> ...


Can't you throw a decent full range driver into those cubes?

You've seen the front stage speakers I built. I am still planning to build all of the surround speakers. I'm going for 9.1. I've got some peerless 5" ($10 each) and LPG tweets (around $15 each). You can keep them really small if you use an aperiodic membrane. Madisound has some by scanspeak I think. I plan to use passive radiators for my surround speakers

The full range drivers would be the easiest, probably. Is your reciever a THX system to get 7.1? IOW 2 rears?


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## xanderin (Mar 26, 2008)

BTW my system is far above anything made by Bose. I just built some 2way Transmission Lines with Peerless 6.5's and dayton tweeters.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

AWC said:


> Can't you throw a decent full range driver into those cubes?


They are pretty small, not sure. I thought of that too. 



AWC said:


> The full range drivers would be the easiest, probably. Is your reciever a THX system to get 7.1? IOW 2 rears?


 Yes it is THX. 2 Rear, 2 Side, 2 Front, and a center.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

I'll be honest with you, looking at whats in your sig, I cant imagine that acoustimass setup would sound good to you. But if you insist on using it, You cant really just add 2 double cubes to the front, as the xovers in your reciever dont cut off high enough, those little drivers handle zero bass. The acoustimass module( sub) has the xovers in it. So, if you wanted to do 7.1 and keep the acoustimass, you could buy a pair of bookshelf, or inwall, or something that will be able to handle the output of that reciever. Ill tell you though, mixing with the Bose will REALLY reveal how bad the Bose actually sounds. Look into doing some DIY inwalls, just order the drivers/xovers from PE, and make your own inwall baffle, cut the sheetrock out, install baffle, tape, paint! Profit! And ten times the sq of the Bose.

There's an old saying from my audio sales days: " No highs, no lows, it's gotta be Bose."


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

An important factor....does your wife want all the speakers hidden?

I built a small set once and made each enclosure a little different. The inner enclosures were all the same but I installed them in baskets and a lamp thingy and carved box thingy. I just used "wife approved" decorations and installed my speakers into them. I cut out the space for the drivers and covered them with subtle colored cloth. Each driver looked like a decoration and the wife was really happy and so was I.

Then my wife started ****ing every soldier on post and I divorced her ***** **** ass

She sold them for $5 for the set while I was in Somalia.....I might still be a little bitter about it. She also sold my 1971 Stratocaster.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

AWC said:


> An important factor....does your wife want all the speakers hidden?
> 
> I built a small set once and made each enclosure a little different. The inner enclosures were all the same but I installed them in baskets and a lamp thingy and carved box thingy. I just used "wife approved" decorations and installed my speakers into them. I cut out the space for the drivers and covered them with subtle colored cloth. Each driver looked like a decoration and the wife was really happy and so was I.
> 
> ...


Why is she still alive?


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> I'll be honest with you, looking at whats in your sig, I cant imagine that acoustimass setup would sound good to you. But if you insist on using it, You cant really just add 2 double cubes to the front, as the xovers in your reciever dont cut off high enough, those little drivers handle zero bass. The acoustimass module( sub) has the xovers in it. So, if you wanted to do 7.1 and keep the acoustimass, you could buy a pair of bookshelf, or inwall, or something that will be able to handle the output of that reciever. Ill tell you though, mixing with the Bose will REALLY reveal how bad the Bose actually sounds. Look into doing some DIY inwalls, just order the drivers/xovers from PE, and make your own inwall baffle, cut the sheetrock out, install baffle, tape, paint! Profit! And ten times the sq of the Bose.
> 
> There's an old saying from my audio sales days: " No highs, no lows, it's gotta be Bose."


I was going to add the cubes, but am not thrilled with Bose. Yeah, no bass, crappy mids, painful highs. 

Thank you for pointing out the in wall speaker. I am not totally apposed, however my house is nearly 90 years old. It is lath and plaster, 1-1.25" thick with textured wall paper over it. Cannot find the wall paper any more. If I do it, I will have to be VERY careful. OR put the speakers in the ceiling. Are ceiling speakers possible? or poor for imaging?


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

AWC said:


> An important factor....does your wife want all the speakers hidden?


Yeah, they need to be Wife approved, and she likes her decorative space.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> I was going to add the cubes, but am not thrilled with Bose. Yeah, no bass, crappy mids, painful highs.
> 
> Thank you for pointing out the in wall speaker. I am not totally apposed, however my house is nearly 90 years old. It is lath and plaster, 1-1.25" thick with textured wall paper over it. Cannot find the wall paper any more. If I do it, I will have to be VERY careful. OR put the speakers in the ceiling. Are ceiling speakers possible? or poor for imaging?


In ceiling can work, if you do it properly, especially for the side/ rears. Fronts... not so much, as it will be hard to bring the sound down to around ear level( which is what you want for fronts). Maybe go with some nice bookshelf/floorstanders up front, and the rest in cieling? BTW, those walls would make an excellent enclosure, very "dead". I can understand about the wall paper, but im justsayin...


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

You can also go with an "on wall" setup involving brackets and/or shelves. If you do it right, you can leave no marks upon removal- by peeling the WP back a bit, then driving your screws and whatnot. Then to remove, simply stick the WP back over the filled screw holes.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> You can also go with an "on wall" setup involving brackets and/or shelves. If you do it right, you can leave no marks upon removal- by peeling the WP back a bit, then driving your screws and whatnot. Then to remove, simply stick the WP back over the filled screw holes.


The current cubes are on brackets on the wall. PITA getting a screw to stay in that plaster..............unless it is literally 2" long or I find a stud. What direction would I have to go in for the ceiling rear and sides? Would I use the Bose woofer or look for another type of woofer (powered or passive)?


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

Like others mentioned I would scrap the bose stuff

I am presently running 5.2 & will go 9.2, I just need to buy another amp or two.

If you HAVE to use the bose stuff, I would use them for all the surround speakers & either buy or make proper front's & center speakers. Those are the most important speakers especially if you ever play music w/o the surround stuff on.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Viggen said:


> Like others mentioned I would scrap the bose stuff
> 
> I am presently running 5.2 & will go 9.2, I just need to buy another amp or two.
> 
> If you HAVE to use the bose stuff, I would use them for all the surround speakers & either buy or make proper front's & center speakers. Those are the most important speakers especially if you ever play music w/o the surround stuff on.


I will have to look to see what Klipsch has to offer. I have always been a fan of them and I am pretty sure they are offered in wall/ceiling applications. I am working against space and size limitations.


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

Save your self money and stay 5.1.
7.1 is waste


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

Sell the Bose and build your own using the daytons! 
I bet you'd have money left over. Bose crap still sell for decent $$


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

& like gu.... stated, 7.1 isn't always a upgrade. I wouldn't call it a waiste but depending on the room it might not sound any better then a properly setup 5.1 system.

Fortunantly my wife doesn't care that I use my infinity kappa 8.1's for rear surround speakers (also use them as my mains) & they are around 4ft tall


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Well lets do this now that we have a half dozen guys (more then I expected) who know home audio involved. I will draw a layout of my room. We already know I am limited on space and size of the speakers. So lets stay as close to ceiling as possible and small front stage as we can. I already have it partially wired for 7.1 and the receiver is optimal for 7.1, so I might as well use it. In the mean time any suggestions on maybe swapping Daytons into the Bose enclosures, or I COULD build my own. I am a novice custom cabinet and furniture maker by hobby, so getting the right woods and working it is not any issue at all.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

splaudiohz said:


> Well lets do this now that we have a half dozen guys (more then I expected) who know home audio involved. I will draw a layout of my room. We already know I am limited on space and size of the speakers. So lets stay as close to ceiling as possible and small front stage as we can. I already have it partially wired for 7.1 and the receiver is optimal for 7.1, so I might as well use it. In the mean time any suggestions on maybe swapping Daytons into the Bose enclosures, or I COULD build my own. I am a novice custom cabinet and furniture maker by hobby, so getting the right woods and working it is not any issue at all.


You absolutely can. I have no doubt. If you thought my speakers looked alright, then I have no doubt. I used a veneer. If you hack the wood up like Lindsey Lohan's woman-wang after an AA meeting, you can still cover it up with the veneer.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

If you're better with fiberglass, you can go to Joanne's and get a plain wooden box of any size. Then fiberglass around it until its non-resonant. Hell I've made good fiberglass speakers using a kleenex box. Piece of cake!


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

AWC said:


> If you're better with fiberglass, you can go to Joanne's and get a plain wooden box of any size. Then fiberglass around it until its non-resonant. Hell I've made good fiberglass speakers using a kleenex box. Piece of cake!


Edit++for your wife's sake, you can use "pretty" boxes of most any material and fiberglass from the inside being careful no to break its "pretty".


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

AWC said:


> An important factor....does your wife want all the speakers hidden?
> 
> I built a small set once and made each enclosure a little different. The inner enclosures were all the same but I installed them in baskets and a lamp thingy and carved box thingy. I just used "wife approved" decorations and installed my speakers into them. I cut out the space for the drivers and covered them with subtle colored cloth. Each driver looked like a decoration and the wife was really happy and so was I.
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that you could not bring her along to Somalia....


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

rugdnit said:


> It's unfortunate that you could not bring her along to Somalia....


She is now fat enough to act as one of those trampolines that people jump out of high buildings to cushion their fall. 

The speakers weren't a big-deal except for the principle of it. They were car-audio coaxes:blush: The strat was beautiful. I never played it was her reasoning. 

I happen to have a pair of boston acoustic CR6.7 and CRC7. I'm pretty sure that's the model.

They're in great shape. Let me know if you're interested. The bose will be perfect for surround speakers. These bostons are good but they are the circuit city version, not the 1800 ones. You will need a subwoofer. 

When you activate 7 channel stereo, it does send a full stereo signal above the crossover. You will probably be best of with regular stereo or one of the surround programs like L7 which I'm guessing your receiver has, right?

Let me know.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

Yeah, but the strat.... fack!


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

AWC said:


> She is now fat enough to act as one of those trampolines that people jump out of high buildings to cushion their fall.
> 
> The speakers weren't a big-deal except for the principle of it. They were car-audio coaxes:blush: The strat was beautiful. I never played it was her reasoning.
> 
> ...


Yes it has Logic 7 as well as Dolby, DTS, THX, DSP, VMAx, and regular Stereo. Each one of those has a series of adjustible modes within them (i.e. Dolby: Dolby Digital, Pro Logic, Pro Logic II, Pro Logic IIx, Dolby 3 Stereo, Dolby Virtual, etc...). Each mode can be entered and each channels fq can be adjusted as well. I have the digital output from the AVR240 connected to my TV so I can make the adjustments.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

Investigate this link, and all the projects available, I am sure you will find something you like there:

Parts Express Project Gallery


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Thanks for the link. I may look into the versatility of ceiling speakers, and the options of the front stage. Miiiiiiiiiiiiight be able to squeeeeeeeze a skinny tower on either side of my tv.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

After talking to the wife and assessing the living room space, there is literally 10" on the left side (floor) of my tv and about 18" on the right side (floor). the rest of the outside walls have been consumed with either seating or some type of entry way or stair case. 

Does anyone have experience with ceiling speakers? Do they require aiming? I am still pretty sure I can get towers around the TV. I am still trying to find a center thin enough to fit on my tv stand. Not much room there either.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> After talking to the wife and assessing the living room space, there is literally 10" on the left side (floor) of my tv and about 18" on the right side (floor). the rest of the outside walls have been consumed with either seating or some type of entry way or stair case.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with ceiling speakers? Do they require aiming? I am still pretty sure I can get towers around the TV. I am still trying to find a center thin enough to fit on my tv stand. Not much room there either.


Ceiling speakers can be aimed, there are some inwall/inceiling with an aimable baffle/and/or tweeter. I would get the kind with the aimable baffle, that way you can have the wooer firing at you as well. Even with that pay attention to your distances, try to keep them even from the seating position.

Some starting points:
Ive used their gear before, its good, not amazing
Niles Audio Corporation Mount Loudspeakers&categoryID=Speakers&catcdID=1
B&W makes some of the best speakers in the world:
Custom Installation speakers - Bowers & Wilkins | B&W Speakers
Boston Acoustics, I have always loved the sound, never heard a BA speaker I didnt like:
In Wall Speakers | Hidden Speakers | Best In Wall Stereo Reviews

Remember 2 things:
1) most of any of these speakers can be found online/ebay, so dont let the prices scare you
2) just because it says in wall, doesnt mean you cant use it in cieling as well. Just make sure they wont fall on your head.

If you have no experience with these types of installs, they can be a real pain in the ass, especially in an old house like yours. You may want to consider hiring an install co. to do it for you. I would imagine that in most markets they are willing to wheel and deal with you, due to the economy. If they don't there are some that will. Usually you can even buy your own stuff and have them install it for you, but they get you a bit harder on install charges, and don't offer any warranty service on the gear itself, only the install. There are exceptions of course.

Me personally, since I do have experience with this stuff would avoid all these speakers and build my own in cieling/in wall with PE drivers and some good 1/4 to 3/8 birch ply. These companys charge a premium for these types of speakers. Build a baffle for whatever drivers you want(an 8 and tweet is more than good), cut the hole in your ceiling, fasten the baffle securely, install drivers, tape, and paint. You do give away the aimable tweet baffle unless you are good at that sort of thing and can make it work.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> Ceiling speakers can be aimed, there are some inwall/inceiling with an aimable baffle/and/or tweeter. I would get the kind with the aimable baffle, that way you can have the wooer firing at you as well. Even with that pay attention to your distances, try to keep them even from the seating position.
> 
> Some starting points:
> Ive used their gear before, its good, not amazing
> ...


Well the good news is I am pretty savvy with building custom enclosures and working with various types of wood. Another good point I forgot to mention is that I am installing a new ceiling. I planned to wire in a series of lights, a ceiling fan, and sheet rock it as the old plaster looks like hell. Your ceiling ideas would be optimal during this phase. Especially the custom enclosure one as I can set the depth of the enclosure to the new thickness of the ceiling as I am using furring strips and dry walling over the existing lath and plaster. I tore that stuff out once when I remodeled my son's room.......never again if I don't have to. 

I think we have a damn good start on a game plan.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

BTW generalkorrd do you have any specific B&W speakers in mind for the sides as those will have to angle? Unless the rears have to angle too. My Receiver does TA but I will consider distance and try and keep it symmetrical.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> BTW generalkorrd do you have any specific B&W speakers in mind for the sides as those will have to angle? Unless the rears have to angle too. My Receiver does TA but I will consider distance and try and keep it symmetrical.


Not too familiar with the b&w lines, I don't know if they even have one that angles. Are you wanting to install the side channels on the ceiling too? Since you are doing a new ceiling, and you have some skills, maybe consider an angled install on the side channels( assuming that B&W doesnt have angled baffles)? It wouldnt take too much to build an angled enclosure on the ceiling, and unless those channels are a long ways away, the angle won't have to be too severe either. In addition, they are side channels, not mains, so angling and imaging is not as important. Ambience is the key here. Look at the Klipsch link with the dual tweets pointing in different directions, maybe thats what you want to use there.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> Are you wanting to install the side channels on the ceiling too?


If possible yes.


generalkorrd said:


> It wouldnt take too much to build an angled enclosure on the ceiling, and unless those channels are a long ways away, the angle won't have to be too severe either.


I will sketch up my room layout quick, but it looks like the furthest the sides would be from one another would be is 10'-12'. Same for the rears. 


generalkorrd said:


> In addition, they are side channels, not mains, so angling and imaging is not as important. Ambience is the key here. Look at the Klipsch link with the dual tweets pointing in different directions, maybe thats what you want to use there.


Since they are for ambiance only, a lower end Klipsch will probably work just fine. I will see what they have. 

On a further note, do you suggest B&W for the front stage?


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> If possible yes.
> 
> I will sketch up my room layout quick, but it looks like the furthest the sides would be from one another would be is 10'-12'. Same for the rears.
> 
> ...


I'll just say that you really need to try to listen to some of these speakers, as everybody's ear is different. The Klipsch will sound very differnt from B&W, but you may end up liking Klipsch more. It depends on you. With that said, if I had the budget, and absolutely no way to listen beforehand, I would probably lean towards the B&W's-their reputation is outstanding, and I've always wanted to own some. Some of the install companies do have showrooms and/or showhouses for demo purposes, you should investigate that before you pull the trigger on anything. Hell, they may show you something we havent talked about, for example, Focal has an in wall line, Dynaudio as well. I would imagine that almost every speaker company sells inwall/in ceiling speakers. You really need to shop them.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

I will definitely shop around, but my region is pretty limited on high end speakers to go listen to. A local place has Klipsch, but I would never buy from them, however I do love the sound. There is another place north of me that sells some home audio, but nothing too high end.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> I will definitely shop around, but my region is pretty limited on high end speakers to go listen to. A local place has Klipsch, but I would never buy from them, however I do love the sound. There is another place north of me that sells some home audio, but nothing too high end.


You should look in the phone book for some install companies. A bunch of those are smaller operations, but that doesnt mean that they suck. Or, you can take a chance, I'm sure any of the better companies will sound pretty good. FYI, the inwall versions of their speakers dont necessarily sound identical to the enclosed ones. Different environment, more of an IB type install... have you ever measured the cu.ft of a stud space lol?


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> You should look in the phone book for some install companies. A bunch of those are smaller operations, but that doesnt mean that they suck. Or, you can take a chance, I'm sure any of the better companies will sound pretty good. FYI, the inwall versions of their speakers dont necessarily sound identical to the enclosed ones. Different environment, more of an IB type install... have you ever measured the cu.ft of a stud space lol?


There are only two places that do "professional" home audio in this part of the state. As for the cu ft of stud space............well it would be nice if they were on center. Native 2x8s made of solid red oak that are rough cut. I literally have logs in my floors as support joists. 12" full diameter oak trees holding my house up. I will probably build enclosures. 

Man I don't wanna get cheap Klipsch, but the BWs are some $alty bastards. I cannot find decent ones used cheap. Klipsch has a decent line but eBay is loaded up with full retail prices on those. I will look more tomorrow.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> There are only two places that do "professional" home audio in this part of the state. As for the cu ft of stud space............well it would be nice if they were on center. Native 2x8s made of solid red oak that are rough cut. I literally have logs in my floors as support joists. 12" full diameter oak trees holding my house up. I will probably build enclosures.
> 
> Man I don't wanna get cheap Klipsch, but the BWs are some $alty bastards. I cannot find decent ones used cheap. Klipsch has a decent line but eBay is loaded up with full retail prices on those. I will look more tomorrow.


Remember, theres always the DIY route. Good luck


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## doors666 (Nov 10, 2010)

another idea might be to keep your bose for 7.1 surround duties. Do they make good surrounds, no they dont, but as surrounds they will bother you much less. Make/buy good front speakers, maybe a center channel and sub, and you are pretty much set for movies. For music, get a good integrated amplifier and a cd player/source.


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