# Audiofrog manufacturer



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

*Audiofrog - Made in China?*

I've been looking at some reviews and builds I noticed Audiofrog has made a name for themselves. I read up a bit on them and noticed the president of the company, Andy, comes around this forum (nice to see that). The only thing unappealing to me is that these speakers are made in China. The build quality looks great in pictures, but with most things in my life that are made in China, they tend to break (iPhones, iPods, etc.). I got some KRK studio monitors that are breaking too.

I love watching Youtube videos where they tour the Focal, Dynaudio, SEAS, plant. It seems that they're very into their trade and they charge the right price for their passion. I think we can all agree 90%+ of the crap that comes from China, is crap. Maybe my perception is flawed but I would love for someone on the inside help me understand how those speakers could still be well made even if it's done by China. Are they using their own plant over in China or going to a bigger manufacturer that they order parts from?

I would like to try some Audiofrog products in the near future, but something about that price and the made in China tag makes my mind worry. This is not a hate post. I just want to understand some things about the industry and spark a discussion.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

It is all about quality control. Going to China because it's cheap, you get cheap. Going to China with proper tooling, and quality control, and development, there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't matter where it's from.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

the fact that you, or anyone else, would think the geographical location of manufacturing of a specific product determines its build quality is just downright silly


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

You've searched the forum. You know the location of the manufacturer has not affected the quality of the Audiofrog products. 

Where a product is manufactured only affects the quality of the product as much as the company will allow it to. Seems Andy has strived to make sure that it is not an issue with his products. Now, if you have a political objection to purchasing a product made in China that is a different topic all together.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> the fact that you, or anyone else, would think the geographical location of manufacturing of a specific product determines its build quality is just downright silly



Well, um, their is the whole human rights side of it too. As well as the environmental concerns......not to mention the whole currupt curency fixing, but can't blame anyone for thinking this because the early days of Chinese manufacturing built up quite the reputation. Most folks simply don't realize that a good part of china's manufacturing base has modernized and is using quality control that's up to par, if the customer will support it. I'd imagine that audiofrog is supporting that kind of qc with their prices. If you go back to the 60s, Japan faced the same uphill battle, and look where their manufacturing quality expectations have landed.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> Well, um, their is the whole human rights side of it too. As well as the environmental concerns......not to mention the whole currupt curency fixing, but can't blame anyone for thinking this because the early days of Chinese manufacturing built up quite the reputation. Most folks simply don't realize that a good part of china's manufacturing base has modernized and is using quality control that's up to par, if the customer will support it. I'd imagine that audiofrog is supporting that kind of qc with their prices. If you go back to the 60s, Japan faced the same uphill battle, and look where their manufacturing quality expectations have landed.


come on now. i think anyone with common sense would know that the build quality would have nothing to do with where in the world it was made,


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> come on now. i think anyone with common sense would know that the build quality would have nothing to do with where in the world it was made,


Ok, would you want your next surgery's tools hermetically sealed in Turkmenistan?

Think about it a minute, don't answer too fast. I know it's an extreme example, but just trying to relate to a young man who hasn't seen how far china's manufacturing has come from years ago....


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

claydo said:


> Ok, would you want your next surgery's tools hermetically sealed in Turkmenistan? I know it's an extreme example, but just trying to relate to a young man who hasn't seen how far china's manufacturing has come from years ago....


When was the last time someone getting wheeled into surgery A) insisted on knowing where his surgery tools were manufactured and B) refused surgery due to the response of item A?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> Ok, would you want your next surgery's tools hermetically sealed in Turkmenistan?
> 
> Think about it a kinute, don't answer too fast. I know it's an extreme example, but just trying to relate to a young man who hasn't seen how far china's manufacturing has come from years ago....


but were not talking about years ago


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

iphone, ipods. lol


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> iphone, ipods. lol


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

jtaudioacc said:


> iphone, ipods. lol


Seriously, I dont know why power and home buttons fail... Those damn audio jacks are crap too. I've had 2 that failed on me.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Just buy them from Crutchfield. If you determine they are built like crap then return them. Or if you prefer to buy something not made in China then buy some German stuff.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Running Rainbow Profi Kickbass right now. I got some of that Hasselhoff tickling my ear drums. lol


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

The company I work for used to manufacture their metal chassis's in china. The QA was ok but not to standards of our products. They moved production locally and we now have less hardware failures cause of it.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

Let's not forget that the Danes make some of the the best built and sounding speakers in the world. But every country can make garbage to excellent quality products. America made some of the worst cars during 70's and 80's. It's all about how much the manufacturer is willing to spend for that quality. It's probably why Audio frog and other top end speakers cost what they do.


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## harvylogan (Nov 19, 2009)

cobb2819 said:


> It is all about quality control. Going to China because it's cheap, you get cheap. Going to China with proper tooling, and quality control, and development, there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't matter where it's from.


Just a simple question. If it wasn't cheaper what would be the motivation to outsource?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

rton20s said:


> When was the last time someone getting wheeled into surgery A) insisted on knowing where his surgery tools were manufactured and B) refused surgery due to the response of item A?



Lmao, you totally over analyzed my question and missed the point........just a general question, using surgery to grab attention, an unknown country to fathom, and surgical tools to bring home the importance. The actual circumstances of the question are unimportant.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

when i had surgery on my eye i made sure the scalpel was made by Scandinavian virgins out of the purest titanium they could dig out of the depths of their local volcano


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> but were not talking about years ago


I know.....did you read my statement? Most don't know they have modernized a lot of their manufacturing. You didn't experience the years ago part.....so I tried to make you understand why someone might think that. Someone your age might also think a car manufactured in yoguslovia would be ok too.......totally oblivious to the whole yugo thing....lol.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Ageist.


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

harvylogan said:


> Just a simple question. If it wasn't cheaper what would be the motivation to outsource?


The main benefit is cheap labor. Not necessarily cutting corners on build quality or product. In the US employees need to get paid more (a lot more) for doing essentially the same thing they do over there.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

gregerst22 said:


> The main benefit is cheap labor. Not necessarily cutting corners on build quality or product. In the US employees need to get paid more (a lot more) for doing essentially the same thing they do over there.


Employment costs aside, don't forget toxic material control, employee safety, pollution control, government set raw material costs, and the all important de-valued yen.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: Audiofrog - Made in China?*

This was the first freakin thing I saw when I opened tapatalk. Lmao


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## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

claydo said:


> Employment costs aside, don't forget toxic material control, employee safety, pollution control, government set raw material costs, and the all important de-valued yen.


Yep, less overhead for the manufacturer. They don't need to worry about OSHA or the EPA.


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: Audiofrog - Made in China?*



benny z said:


> This was the first freakin thing I saw when I opened tapatalk. Lmao



You should send that to Andy. :laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Audiofrog - Made in China?*



benny z said:


> This was the first freakin thing I saw when I opened tapatalk. Lmao


thats actually a pic of andy from years ago


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

From crime fighter to lifeguard to company CEO. I have a feeling in a few years he may break into reality tv.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

strohw said:


> From crime fighter to lifeguard to company CEO. I have a feeling in a few years he may break into reality tv.


hes also a professional mexican wrestler. goes by the name "El ******"


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## Makky (Nov 15, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> the fact that you, or anyone else, would think the geographical location of manufacturing of a specific product determines its build quality is just downright silly


I think his opinion is based on historic perception and justifiably so. 
As mentioned earlier however, If the manufacturer can guarantee strict quality control it does not matter where it's made from.


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

Unfortunately it's the world we live in. Being from Dayton Ohio we use to be the tool and die capital of the world. Shops very successful ones were all over this town and did excellent work supplying the auto industry amd numerous other markets. I bet 60% of them or more have closed their doors, everything is made elsewhere.

I have no issues with Chinese made speakers from a reliability or quality standpoint. It's all about the company (audio frog, hat, etc) finding the proper manufacturing facility and working wth them until the prodict meets their design goals. 

The iPhone doesn't bend because it's made in China, it bends because that's how Apple designed it. I would assume something that they overlooked. 

I own a funeral home, this past summer a family came in and wanted to purchase their casket elsewhere. The casket they purchased I sell a US made version for $3,000, it costs me $2,000. The casket they purchased they paid $900 for and the place they purchase them from have less then $100 per casket. They are purchased by the shipping container and they supposedly. Up several containers from China at a time. Vs our products which are made in Richmond Indiana. There is a big difference in quality between these two, the Chinese one is made for people who are shorter then 5ft 6 in and not wide.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Hmmmm...don't believe everything you see in the news and everything you see stamped onto speaker cones, baskets and surrounds. 

I've been developing products for more then 20 years. I've worked with US factories, factories in Germany, France, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil, South Korea, Vietnam and China. I can say without a doubt that you get what you require and the way one requires what one wants from a factory is with a spec, a testing spec and a process for verification. 

I interviewed factories in Europe, in the US, in Indonesia and in China to build our designs. The European and US factories wouldn't agree to be held to our reliability and environmental testing spec. The Indonesian factory was too slow. I chose the factory in China because they are used to building to a similar spec, because I've done business with them for 20 years and because they are experts. They were the most expensive of all the factories except the one in Europe. 

The quality is definitely world class, as is the performance. We have a co tract with them that helps to ensure that. 

Are there human rights violations in China? Sure. I don't think there are any at the factory we use and I've been there hundreds of times. 

Read about the qualifications for claiming that products are made in the EU and
in European countries. Google "last substantive transformation".


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Read about the qualifications for claiming that products are made in the EU and
> in European countries. Google "last substantive transformation".


something about, as long as an irrelevant to us part of the process is done in Europe, they can claim made in Europe? something as simple as adding a sticker..? correct?


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## deeppinkdiver (Feb 4, 2011)

Viggen said:


> Being from Dayton Ohio we use to be the tool and die capital of the world.



Viggen, Im in Dayton.. we should chat.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Extremely impressed with the quality of my speakers. BTW...I thought Andy was "The Hoff"?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

*Re: Audiofrog - Made in China?*



benny z said:


> This was the first freakin thing I saw when I opened tapatalk. Lmao


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmmm...don't believe everything you see in the news and everything you see stamped onto speaker cones, baskets and surrounds.
> 
> I've been developing products for more then 20 years. I've worked with US factories, factories in Germany, France, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil, South Korea, Vietnam and China. I can say without a doubt that you get what you require and the way one requires what one wants from a factory is with a spec, a testing spec and a process for verification.
> 
> ...


Thanks for chiming in Andy, that's all I wanted to know. 

This thread is going to the circus.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

tonynca said:


> Thanks for chiming in Andy, that's all I wanted to know.
> 
> This thread is going to the circus.


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## Smdaniel-11 (Feb 4, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> come on now. i think anyone with common sense would know that the build quality would have nothing to do with where in the world it was made,


So many company’s share major parts it makes zero difference if something is from China or any other country. The little difference in Metallurgy from China couldn’t be noticed by the human ear. They have such an amazing QC group at Audiofrog I wouldn’t care if they came out of a dirt cave.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Please a modern factory with lights, air conditioner and happy workers... not dirt cave!


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

tonynca said:


> *Audiofrog - Made in China?*
> 
> I've been looking at some reviews and builds I noticed Audiofrog has made a name for themselves. I read up a bit on them and noticed the president of the company, Andy, comes around this forum (nice to see that). The only thing unappealing to me is that these speakers are made in China. The build quality looks great in pictures, but with most things in my life that are made in China, they tend to break (iPhones, iPods, etc.). I got some KRK studio monitors that are breaking too.
> 
> ...


Oh ****. We have another one.

So, would your confidence in buying Audiofr0g products be more convincing if they were built in a van down by the river in Mayersvile Mississippi? Made in the USA right?









Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> when i had surgery on my eye i made sure the scalpel was made by Scandinavian virgins out of the purest titanium they could dig out of the depths of their local volcano


My surgeon used a rusty nail fished out of the sewers of Mogadishu...

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

harvylogan said:


> Just a simple question. If it wasn't cheaper what would be the motivation to outsource?


The motivation is manufacturing lines are available in China. Not so much anywhere else. Why build your own facility locally and then pay to fill it with equipment when that already exists in some factory in China? You're spending millions of dollars to re-invent the wheel.

Ge0


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## OneLifeToLive (Dec 12, 2020)

This was in 2019. Finally?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

OneLifeToLive said:


> This was in 2019. Finally?


It took me several trips to Shanghai before I trusted their high speed MAGLEV train. It's going to be a decade before I would consider hopping on one of their plains...

Ge0


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Everything is made in China, even your clothing and shoes, and you be surprised if you eat Chinese food from China!

This is a second time around of me having Audio Frog in my car.

I am extremely happy with AF!
Just because they are made in China, that doesn't mean it's a bad product!

AF is extremely well build and Andy will not let BS slip through his hands !

Support is also Phenomenal!



Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

harvylogan said:


> Just a simple question. If it wasn't cheaper what would be the motivation to outsource?


Expertise. I interviewed several factories--in Asia, Europe and the US. Only two would agree to build and test according to our reliability and environmental test procedure. One in Indonesia and the one in China that I chose. All of the other ones asked us to eliminate or relax our test regimens.


In order for things to be "Made in the US", 70% of the content has to be sourced in the US. This rule is not the same in many European countries. In Italy, for example, there are two designations: Made in Italy and 100% Made in Italy. In some other countries, the country of origin designation is determined by "last substantive transformation". Those rules also vary a lot. In some countries, that can be a box or a sticker, in others a tax, in still others, it has to ACTUALLY be something substantive--like final assembly. 

So, we follow the rules because defrauding USCBP is a massive fine and jailtime. 

The people who build these speakers for us are also experts. They're a Tier-1 supplier. 

And, they were more expensive than ANY of the other factories we talked to--because they have expertise.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> Expertise. I interviewed several factories--in Asia, Europe and the US. Only two would agree to build and test according to our reliability and environmental test procedure. One in Indonesia and the one in China that I chose. All of the other ones asked us to eliminate or relax our test regimens.
> 
> 
> In order for things to be "Made in the US", 70% of the content has to be sourced in the US. This rule is not the same in many European countries. In Italy, for example, there are two designations: Made in Italy and 100% Made in Italy. In some other countries, the country of origin designation is determined by "last substantive transformation". Those rules also vary a lot. In some countries, that can be a box or a sticker, in others a tax, in still others, it has to ACTUALLY be something substantive--like final assembly.
> ...


Most of us understand all of that. How is it the US are leaders in the most complicated technologies but we don't have experts in making speakers? We can make the most complicated things on earth but can't do speakers. I'm also confused on the environmental aspect. China is well known for having very lax environmental restrictions. I'm most curious as to what percentage of your product costs go to the chinese gov't? I can't in good conscience give my money to the chinese communist regime unless there are no other options.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Most of us understand all of that. How is it the US are leaders in the most complicated technologies but we don't have experts in making speakers? We can make the most complicated things on earth but can't do speakers. I'm also confused on the environmental aspect. China is well known for having very lax environmental restrictions. I'm most curious as to what percentage of your product costs go to the chinese gov't? I can't in good conscience give my money to the chinese communist regime unless there are no other options.


We have lots of experts in MAKING speakers, but we don't have many factories that make car speakers. Some subwoofers and some that make home audio drivers. The environmental restrictions in China are not what they once were. Much more stringent now. 


The factory that makes speakers for us is not state owned. But if speakers need to be political, then so be it. My job is to provide the best speakers I can.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> We have lots of experts in MAKING speakers, but we don't have many factories that make car speakers. Some subwoofers and some that make home audio drivers. The environmental restrictions in China are not what they once were. Much more stringent now.
> 
> 
> The factory that makes speakers for us is not state owned. But if speakers need to be political, then so be it. My job is to provide the best speakers I can.


I would gladly give money to you for speakers but it would bother me knowing some of that cost went to the chinese gov't.


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## Jaloosk (Jan 13, 2010)

Where can you buy AF speakers in Canada?

edit; never mind I’ll check your website.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Audiofrog is quality.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

619Tundra said:


> Audiofrog is quality.


I absolutely believe that Audiofrog products are great. I'm always tempted to try their stuff in spite of my China as a last resort only policy.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

You do realize probably 1/2 the stuff you own is made in China, right?? Probably the shirt on your back right now.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Niebur3 said:


> You do realize probably 1/2 the stuff you own is made in China, right?? Probably the shirt on your back right now.


Yep. And I just checked. Made in Pakistan.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

cobb2819 said:


> It is all about quality control. Going to China because it's cheap, you get cheap. Going to China with proper tooling, and quality control, and development, there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't matter where it's from.


Welp, if you can't get employees that are passionate about what they are building, it DOES MATTER. and a work force paid peanuts, are not going to care, no matter if the raw materials, and design are top shelf.
Companies move to China for one reason, and that is almost no enviroment regs and cheap labor. You can do all the "quailty control" you want but when the folks putting it together don't care other than they need a job. you get CRAP.
I have yet to have anything last that was made in china. no matter what it was, or what brand it was. or the cost of the product, some being very costly. and their claimed Q/C dept. Why because the people getting paid peanuts don't care, and management only cares about numbers produced per hour/day/week/month. nothing more.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Welp, if you can't get employees that are passionate about what they are building, it DOES MATTER. and a work force paid peanuts, are not going to care, no matter if the raw materials, and design are top shelf.
> Companies move to China for one reason, and that is almost no enviroment regs and cheap labor. You can do all the "quailty control" you want but when the folks putting it together don't care other than they need a job. you get CRAP.
> I have yet to have anything last that was made in china. no matter what it was, or what brand it was. or the cost of the product, some being very costly. and their claimed Q/C dept. Why because the people getting paid peanuts don't care, and management only cares about numbers produced per hour/day/week/month. nothing more.


LOL.I know nothing about particle physics, but Ima write about particle physics here. 

What makes you assume that the people who build Audiofrog speakers don't care about what they do?


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Most of the best stuff is now made or parts are sourced from outside the US. 

My friend worked for one of America's favorite American tool companies. He made trips over seas several times a year on random pop-ups at their various factories. He said the only one he never had trouble with was the China one. It was the most well run with the most well trained workers. He liked going there. He said the difference was the management. The people actually cared about the product they put out. They weren't against random pop-ups or having environmental impact testing done on sight. All the workers were engaging and friendly, seemingly happy.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

It has nothing to do with quality as far as China goes in my opinion. JL, Minidsp, HAT and lots of others have been making top notch products in china for some time now. The Chinese factories manufacture the products specifically to the company owners specifications. Andy (AF owner) has stated why he went to China for his production. You can accept that or not and go with some other product. I'm sure AF products are awesome as everyone says. I just choose to buy products from anywhere other than China if possible. Has nothing to do with quality. I will not refute what a member on here said about his experience with Chinese products being faulty though. Faulty products are made everywhere.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

GotFrogs said:


> LOL.I know nothing about particle physics, but Ima write about particle physics here.
> 
> What makes you assume that the people who build Audiofrog speakers don't care about what they do?


Have you walked factory's in china? If not. Thanks for your comment. I will go with what I have seen with my own eyes for the last 20+ years, over hearsay .


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

Every factory is different. Do you walk every factory from all of the products you buy? Audiofrog is quality. If you're still skeptical don't just see the product, but listen to the product. Rrad the reviews. It's a global market. Stop posting things you about countries. This is Car Audio.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Have you walked factory's in china? If not. Thanks for your comment. I will go with what I have seen with my own eyes for the last 20+ years, over hearsay .


Yes he has he walked all the factories in question that he was able. He posted that somewhere. Everybody wanted him to relax his standards but the one he settled on. He's visited this factory while working for JBL/Harman too

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Have you walked factory's in china? If not. Thanks for your comment. I will go with what I have seen with my own eyes for the last 20+ years, over hearsay .


You realize that is the owner of Audiofrog that replied to you right?


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Have you walked factory's in china? If not. Thanks for your comment. I will go with what I have seen with my own eyes for the last 20+ years, over hearsay .


Over the course of about 30 years, I've been involved with manufacturing products in China, the US, Germany, France, the UK, Mexico, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. So, yes. How TF could I make products in a factory I haven't visited and how could I choose a factory without that experience?

There are great factories in each of those places and also ****ty factories in each of those. For upscale car speakers and electronics manufactured on an assembly line, the labor component of the cost is quite small so this idea that cheap labor is the motivation is silly and ignorant. I also remember 25 years ago when pouring chemicals in the stream behind the factory was commonplace. That's no longer the case in China as they have adopted many environmental regulations similar to or more strict than some in the US.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

GotFrogs said:


> Over the course of about 30 years, I've been involved with manufacturing products in China, the US, Germany, France, the UK, Mexico, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. So, yes. How TF could I make products in a factory I haven't visited and how could I choose a factory without that experience?
> 
> There are great factories in each of those places and also ****ty factories in each of those. For upscale car speakers and electronics manufactured on an assembly line, the labor component of the cost is quite small so this idea that cheap labor is the motivation is silly and ignorant. I also remember 25 years ago when pouring chemicals in the stream behind the factory was commonplace. That's no longer the case in China as they have adopted many environmental regulations similar to or more strict than some in the US.


Andy, dude obviously has no idea who he's engaging with! After all he's been here 4 days already and has 18 posts and obviously is here to grace us with his insight!!! Welcome Whi....... ummm oh no! Is it possible? Spidey senses are starting to tingle...


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

DaveG said:


> Andy, dude obviously has no idea who he's engaging with! After all he's been here 4 days already and has 18 posts and obviously is here to grace us with his insight!!! Welcome Whi....... ummm oh no! Is it possible? Spidey senses are starting to tingle...


It doesn't matter. One of these days I'll tire of explaining this because there's no way to keep up with the mythology.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

GotFrogs said:


> It doesn't matter. One of these days I'll tire of explaining this because there's no way to keep up with the mythology.


You’re products speak for themselves regardless of where they are manufactured!


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

DaveG said:


> You’re products speak for themselves regardless of where they are manufactured!


Frankly, part of the reason they are great is BECAUSE of where they're manufactured. Credit should be given where it's due.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

GotFrogs said:


> Over the course of about 30 years, I've been involved with manufacturing products in China, the US, Germany, France, the UK, Mexico, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. So, yes. How TF could I make products in a factory I haven't visited and how could I choose a factory without that experience?
> 
> There are great factories in each of those places and also ****ty factories in each of those. For upscale car speakers and electronics manufactured on an assembly line, the labor component of the cost is quite small so this idea that cheap labor is the motivation is silly and ignorant. I also remember 25 years ago when pouring chemicals in the stream behind the factory was commonplace. That's no longer the case in China as they have adopted many environmental regulations similar to or more strict than some in the US.


Right, that is why almost all, audio speaker mfg. moved to china. it wasn't the cheap labor and business cost. 
Sorry, I know better than that. And I will leave it AT that. As no one up roots a factory, mfg to another country just for S&giggles. 
We will agree to disagree. the end


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I seriously don't get what part your missing. Some do go for cheaper labor but some don't. China's is leagues ahead of us when it comes to manufacturing facilities. It's ok. China has more plentiful factories than us. China has 30 times the available workers with way more tech manufacturing experience than us. This isn't new news. What seems to be news to you is that there decent humans that take pride in their work all over the world. Especially areas of China. I'm sure you've had a job where the boss didn't pay you to question his use of an inferior product or technique. Well that's what happens when a plant gets hired to produce something. Then the company that hired them says well we can't always control cheap Chinese manufacturing. When the reality was they didn't hire them to make a quality product.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Right, that is why almost all, audio speaker mfg. moved to china. it wasn't the cheap labor and business cost.
> Sorry, I know better than that. And I will leave it AT that. As no one up roots a factory, mfg to another country just for S&giggles.
> We will agree to disagree. the end


Did you read the entire thread? im assuming not. The buildhouse he is using is more expensive than almost every other build house he interviewed, and they were picked for specific reasons.


Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Hmmmm...don't believe everything you see in the news and everything you see stamped onto speaker cones, baskets and surrounds.
> 
> I've been developing products for more then 20 years. I've worked with US factories, factories in Germany, France, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil, South Korea, Vietnam and China. I can say without a doubt that you get what you require and the way one requires what one wants from a factory is with a spec, a testing spec and a process for verification.
> 
> ...


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## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

Whiplash, serious question: would you pay twice as much for an identical product if it was made in the USA? My experience is that lots of people say they want American made products, but aren't actually willing to open their wallet and pay extra for them. I'm not just talking about speakers and electronics either. Would you pay extra for clothing, shoes, etc?


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Gonna share a little info with you @WhiplashMotorbreath because maybe this will make you understand where @GotFrogs speaks from and who he is:



Andy Wehmeyer - Google Search


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

GotFrogs said:


> It doesn't matter. One of these days I'll tire of explaining this because there's no way to keep up with the mythology.


I thought this was a thread bump from 2002. Its insane that we are still entertaining this as a subject for discusion.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

DaveG said:


> Gonna share a little info with you @WhiplashMotorbreath because maybe this will make you understand where @GotFrogs speaks from and who he is:
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Wehmeyer - Google Search


I'm predicting that WhiplashMotorbreath is Koontz.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> I'm predicting that WhiplashMotorbreath is Koontz.


See post #66! LOL


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

DaveG said:


> See post #66! LOL


haha!!!! Missed that. But yes he's been offensive from day 1. I had one interaction with him and wrote him off.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

Theslaking said:


> I seriously don't get what part your missing. Some do go for cheaper labor but some don't. China's is leagues ahead of us when it comes to manufacturing facilities. It's ok. China has more plentiful factories than us. China has 30 times the available workers with way more tech manufacturing experience than us. This isn't new news. What seems to be news to you is that there decent humans that take pride in their work all over the world. Especially areas of China. I'm sure you've had a job where the boss didn't pay you to question his use of an inferior product or technique. Well that's what happens when a plant gets hired to produce something. Then the company that hired them says well we can't always control cheap Chinese manufacturing. When the reality was they didn't hire them to make a quality product.


This will be our undoing, I tend to not want to take part in that. 
My thoughts and opinion. and like some other things, everyone has one.
They could mfg. it here, and it be as good if not better product. but then they're not be cheap labor, and business cost. 
You know the reasons some claim wasn't the reasons for where the product is produced. BRB need taller boots


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

billw said:


> Whiplash, serious question: would you pay twice as much for an identical product if it was made in the USA? My experience is that lots of people say they want American made products, but aren't actually willing to open their wallet and pay extra for them. I'm not just talking about speakers and electronics either. Would you pay extra for clothing, shoes, etc?


I do it every day.
What next you going to pull out the old stand by, that the computer I am posting with was made outside the usa?
This brand is not the 49.00 crap at wally world. And it isn't just this brand. I watched many close up shop here and move to china, and others. when there was no need, They know the reasons, and So do those that lived it. Some would make great used car salesmen.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> I do it every day.
> What next you going to pull out the old stand by, that the computer I am posting with was made outside the usa?
> This brand is not the 49.00 crap at wally world. And it isn't just this brand. I watched many close up shop here and move to china, and others. when there was no need, They know the reasons, and So do those that lived it. Some would make great used car salesmen.


Why would he choose to pay MORE than manufacturing in the US if there wasn't a reason??


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Don't feed the troll.....it isn't worth it.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Most of us understand all of that. How is it the US are leaders in the most complicated technologies but we don't have experts in making speakers? We can make the most complicated things on earth but can't do speakers. I'm also confused on the environmental aspect. China is well known for having very lax environmental restrictions. I'm most curious as to what percentage of your product costs go to the chinese gov't? I can't in good conscience give my money to the chinese communist regime unless there are no other options.


I know you're not talking to me, and I get your point, but one reason so many speakers are made in China is that they basically own the rare earth mineral market (used in magnets).


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

ckirocz28 said:


> I know you're not talking to me, and I get your point, but one reason so many speakers are made in China is that they basically own the rare earth mineral market (used in magnets).


Oh I know. And they sell everything to anyone who wants it. I thought it was interesting to hear AW say there just aren't very many speaker factories in the US.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Why would he choose to pay MORE than manufacturing in the US if there wasn't a reason??


<rolls eyes>
It isn't worth replying as It won't change anyone's mind.
FYI he isn't paying more than for the same quality if built here. FACT!.
That is why they are built where they are.
But too many in this thread think no one lurks for a decade or more, when their industry would frown on commenting on things and blackballing that person/company. others goto the safe "don't feed the troll"
Right on cue. It is what it is.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

Can't wait to be retired in 5 +/-years and not have to tip toe around the subjects as I do now.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Oh I know. And they sell everything to anyone who wants it. I thought it was interesting to hear AW say there just aren't very many speaker factories in the US.


There doesn't seem to be many at all, Eminence and Electro-Voice are the only build houses I could find with Google.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Can't wait to be retired in 5 +/-years and not have to tip toe around the subjects as I do now.


What's stopping you now? Typing stuff here isn't going to get you fired.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> <rolls eyes>
> It isn't worth replying as It won't change anyone's mind.
> FYI he isn't paying more than for the same quality if built here. FACT!.
> That is why they are built where they are.
> ...


Well yeah, he could have the baskets 3d printed in the US and the spiders made to a tolerance of .05mm if he wanted to; But there is a sweet spot with anything. If he wanted to pay to set up a build house in the US that would do what he was looking for, it would obviously cost more. But he is paying more for the SAME PROCESSES in getting the design built, not paying more just for the sake of having the business in the US. Different concept than just all out cost.
There is a cost to benefit ratio that needs to be hit. If its going to cost 3x as much for the same or lower standards, is absurd to go that route. But yes, it would still cost more. Then he would be charging 2000 a set for gb60s and that would close out a MASSIVE portion of the market, especially when they would be no better than if they were manufactured elsewhere. I know I wouldnt have bought them lol.
The point I was making is that if he was choosing manufacturing location for the singular reason of cutting cost, he is doing it wrong by going with somewhere that is not the cheapest. So it clearly isn't that. That leaves the fact that he is trying to run a business, and is looking for the best quality at the best price. So if they could be manufactured in the US in a way that would leave him competitive in pricing while being made with the same quality control, I'm sure thats where they would be made.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

ckirocz28 said:


> What's stopping you now? Typing stuff here isn't going to get you fired.


Sure. You been living under a rock for the last decade?


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Well yeah, he could have the baskets 3d printed in the US and the spiders made to a tolerance of .05mm if he wanted to; But there is a sweet spot with anything. If he wanted to pay to set up a build house in the US that would do what he was looking for, it would obviously cost more. But he is paying more for the SAME PROCESSES in getting the design built, not paying more just for the sake of having the business in the US. Different concept than just all out cost.
> There is a cost to benefit ratio that needs to be hit. If its going to cost 3x as much for the same or lower standards, is absurd to go that route. But yes, it would still cost more. Then he would be charging 2000 a set for gb60s and that would close out a MASSIVE portion of the market, especially when they would be no better than if they were manufactured elsewhere. I know I wouldnt have bought them lol.
> The point I was making is that if he was choosing manufacturing location for the singular reason of cutting cost, he is doing it wrong by going with somewhere that is not the cheapest. So it clearly isn't that. That leaves the fact that he is trying to run a business, and is looking for the best quality at the best price. So if they could be manufactured in the US in a way that would leave him competitive in pricing while being made with the same quality control, I'm sure thats where they would be made.


You win, I'm out. As I can not at this time, comment without it causing problems. with employment and such.
Good night, or day. whatever it might be at your locol.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Sure. You been living under a rock for the last decade?


Your boss lurk around here?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

So dramatic. 



WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> You win, I'm out. As I can not at this time, comment without it causing problems. with employment and such.
> Good night, or day. whatever it might be at your locol.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> So dramatic.


Its 100% Koontz. @jimmydee


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

He needs to listen to car audio and stop walking factories.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

619Tundra said:


> He needs to listen to car audio and stop walking factories.



Took me long time to decide to make pillar for AF, well I'm glad i finally did it... Couldn't be happier!

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> Its 100% Koontz. @jimmydee


Probably is... but I'm willing to let him keep posting, as he hasn't been offensive in any way.
He'll either contribute in some way to this forum... or he'll hang himself again.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> You win, I'm out. As I can not at this time, comment without it causing problems. with employment and such.
> Good night, or day. whatever it might be at your locol.


You could, you know, make another account through a VPN and say your piece here. If your boss posts here and you are worried, that would cover you. Then you can let everyone know. If you actually have information to the contrary, I am truly curious and would love to hear it.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

miniSQ said:


> Its 100% Koontz. @jimmydee


Sorry, but nope.
Russian, transplant. That worked to get citizenship.
No Idea who that is that you THINK I am.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

jimmydee said:


> Probably is... but I'm willing to let him keep posting, as he hasn't been offensive in any way.
> He'll either contribute in some way to this forum... or he'll hang himself again.


Mr. Moderator. I have no clue on whom ,you people think I am. but I am not whom ever that person, is/was.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> Mr. Moderator. I have no clue on whom ,you people think I am. but I am not whom ever that person, is/was.


To be honest; I don't think you are either... your (multiple) IP address' don't match any of the other fellow's IP's. 

If I'm wrong; then we'll find-out soon enough.


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## WhiplashMotorbreath (Jan 10, 2021)

jimmydee said:


> To be honest; I don't think you are either... your (multiple) IP address' don't match any of the other fellow's IP's.
> 
> If I'm wrong; then we'll find-out soon enough.


I would think it be prudent to have the facts before accusing a member of being someone else.
Maybe you should add, when you find you are wrong, you might want to apologize.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

jimmydee said:


> *To be honest; I don't think you are either*... your (multiple) IP address' don't match any of the other fellow's IP's.
> 
> If I'm wrong; then we'll find-out soon enough.





WhiplashMotorbreath said:


> *I would think it be prudent to have the facts before accusing a member of being someone else*.
> Maybe you should add, when you find you are wrong, you might want to apologize.


He didn't accuse you of anything... actually quite the contrary. But you certainly have a je ne sais quoi about you that is very reminiscent of a previous banned member. Regardless, time will tell what kind of a forum member you are.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

DaveG said:


> He didn't accuse you of anything... actually quite the contrary. But you certainly have a je ne sais quoi about you that is very reminiscent of a previous banned member. Regardless, time will tell what kind of a forum member you are.


I interacted with him in this thread. He is just like Koontz used to be, and no way is he recently from russia. Maybe he is not Koontz, but he is nooone i wish to interact with on the forums.









Sub box and ??


Hello. I am not a fan of the in trunk, they hear you coming from a half block away, bass. My vehicle is a coupe with a package shelf. The plan is a sealed box. Now. I can either pull the rear seat and cut a hole in the seat back car shell panel and build the box to have the driver(sub) fire...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

miniSQ said:


> I interacted with him in this thread. He is just like Koontz used to be, and no way is he recently from russia. Maybe he is not Koontz, but he is nooone i wish to interact with on the forums.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



je ne sais quoi
/ˌZHə nə sā ˈkwä/

_noun_


a quality that cannot be described or named easily.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> the fact that you, or anyone else, would think the geographical location of manufacturing of a specific product determines its build quality is just downright silly


Not silly at all. We all know the good amps come from Japan, and Korea and USA. While China made products are usually in last place. Germany, Italy, etc being top notch as well. China is always the worst. 

I love my Chinese crescendo amps. Haven't let me down. But they aren't .5 or .25 ohm stable like their bigger Korean brothers are.


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

rton20s said:


> When was the last time someone getting wheeled into surgery A) insisted on knowing where his surgery tools were manufactured and B) refused surgery due to the response of item A?


I'm only worried about the cost because this is America


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

96jimmyslt said:


> Not silly at all. We all know the good amps come from Japan, and Korea and USA. While China made products are usually in last place. Germany, Italy, etc being top notch as well. China is always the worst.
> 
> I love my Chinese crescendo amps. Haven't let me down. But they aren't .5 or .25 ohm stable like their bigger Korean brothers are.





gregerst22 said:


> Yep, less overhead for the manufacturer. They don't need to worry about OSHA or the EPA.


That's right because Capitalism has no morals. The biggest worry is that a typhoon will wipe out the factory because there are no building codes.


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

Patriot83 said:


> I would gladly give money to you for speakers but it would bother me knowing some of that cost went to the chinese gov't.


I guess you don't understand that nearly everyting you're already buying is made in China. The plates and forks you eat with everyday, the socks you wear, much of the food you eat and most of the **** you see at Home Depot. Most of your car was probably made there, especially if it's anything GM. They (GM) built some of the biggest factories in the world in China and it wasn't just to sell to the Chinese. Many get shipped here. They built those factories after we bailed them out following the 2008 financial crimes (that saw nobody go to jail). Get over it. I feel almost as bad giving money to the very corrupt USA. China is only a smidgen worse.


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

GotFrogs said:


> It doesn't matter. One of these days I'll tire of explaining this because there's no way to keep up with the mythology.


Andy, I had a dealer show me your products a few months ago. I was so impressed with the quality. I haven't heard them yet but AF is at the top of my list for next build. Keep up the good work.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I had to pay a hospital 4500 for a surgical titanium plate that I could buy for $100 overseas. 

Please keep making your stuff in China so I can afford it....


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

Theslaking said:


> I had to pay a hospital 4500 for a surgical titanium plate that I could buy for $100 overseas.
> 
> Please keep making your stuff in China so I can afford it....


Well, US healthcare is an entirely different scam, perhaps the biggest scam ever in this country.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Theslaking said:


> I had to pay a hospital 4500 for a surgical titanium plate that I could buy for $100 overseas.
> 
> Please keep making your stuff in China so I can afford it....


They bought it overseas for $100.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

ckirocz28 said:


> They bought it overseas for $100


I know. I got a quote from the exact same manufacturer. I knew the system was corrupt but I just recently went through it. So I researched it. I have a prominent surgeon friend that helped me. He didn't even realize how brutal it was. The hospital charged a total of 11k for us to be in there a total of 3.5 hours. The surgeon got 1800 and the anesthesiologist for $900.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

RCD said:


> I guess you don't understand that nearly everyting you're already buying is made in China. The plates and forks you eat with everyday, the socks you wear, much of the food you eat and most of the **** you see at Home Depot. Most of your car was probably made there, especially if it's anything GM. They (GM) built some of the biggest factories in the world in China and it wasn't just to sell to the Chinese. Many get shipped here. They built those factories after we bailed them out following the 2008 financial crimes (that saw nobody go to jail). Get over it. I feel almost as bad giving money to the very corrupt USA. China is only a smidgen worse.


Uh huh, I know most of that is true. Why in the world would you have issue with where I choose to buy manufactured/assembled items from???


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

No issue whatsoever. I only contest your point that anything made in China must be inferior. It's not.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Chinese products can be better or worse but, China itself is a parasite & I can’t believe that anyone defends them.


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

KillerBox said:


> Chinese products can be better or worse but, China itself is a parasite & I can’t believe that anyone defends them.


Nobody IS defending them. But I don't defend the US corporate controlled government either. America is world HQ for corruption, right up there with Russia and China. Don't look now but the US is so in bed with China they can't get out. Why don't they get any blame?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

RCD said:


> Nobody IS defending them. But I don't defend the US corporate controlled government either. America is world HQ for corruption, right up there with Russia and China. Don't look now but the US is so in bed with China they can't get out. Why don't they get any blame?


Maybe because The USA is not harvesting Human Organs against peoples will to sell like China is?


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## ILX Cheeta (Feb 23, 2020)

I admit
1. When I saw this thread I thought oh snap…. Cannot believe anyone who has been around this forum for more than a week would make a mistake and poke a sacred cow…
2. And then followed right along with well I have not seen a public execution lately … 
3. I work in a rough trade… but I cannot imagine being part of a community that the first sign of someone going against your collective beliefs.. you attack attack attack, instead of just reading ( or listening to) what they say and moving on. I.e. that something made in china is better or worse than something made elsewhere that does not have the same bad reputation.

I bet there are not 5 people in this entire forum who have actually been to china and seen production in the American made/ run factories in china.
so you “ really” have no idea .
before you ask, yes I do. I travel over several times a year to meet with our 2 factories that make and import product that everyone loves.

I am not either defending or disparaging china and or it’s quality of product. I am pointing out that as soon as someone poke at your collective beliefs even the uninformed ones, you attack that person. 
anyone brave enough to hazard a guess as to why?
let’s hear from the older and or premium members the ones who have made themselves into a well know identity here.

just wanted to point out what this looks like from an outsider … a nobody.. 

and yes please feel free to attack me for pointing this out. I admit I have poked a sacred cow.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

ILX Cheeta said:


> .... let’s hear from the older and or premium members the ones who have made themselves into a well know identity here.....


Most of those members are long gone because of so many ridiculous nonsense threads like this one.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

This is everything that I need to know about China’s manufacturing techniques: 









China forcefully harvests organs from detainees, tribunal concludes


China's organ transplant trade is worth $1 billion a year, according to a tribunal. This story contains details some may find distressing.




www.nbcnews.com


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

KillerBox said:


> This is everything that I need to know about China’s manufacturing techniques:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminds me of that college party I went to and woke up in a bathtub full of ice.......


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## RCD (Jan 10, 2022)

KillerBox said:


> Maybe because The USA is not harvesting Human Organs against peoples will to sell like China is?


If they think they can get away with it they will. Unfettered capitalism does not breed morality, quite the opposite.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

RCD said:


> If they think they can get away with it they will. Unfettered capitalism does not breed morality, quite the opposite.


You do know that you could live in a Communist country if Capitalism is so awful?


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

RCD said:


> That's right because Capitalism has no morals. The biggest worry is that a typhoon will wipe out the factory because there are no building codes.


I suppose you think communism or "socialism" is better?



RCD said:


> Well, US healthcare is an entirely different scam, perhaps the biggest scam ever in this country.


I'd say taxes is the biggest scam in HUMAN history



RCD said:


> No issue whatsoever. I only contest your point that anything made in China must be inferior. It's not.


I've never once said Chinese made products are inferior in their respective price categories. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with quality for me not wanting to buy China made.



RCD said:


> Nobody IS defending them. But I don't defend the US corporate controlled government either. America is world HQ for corruption, right up there with Russia and China. Don't look now but the US is so in bed with China they can't get out. Why don't they get any blame?


You seem to have a lot of resentment for capitalism and the US and are very apologetic towards China. Maybe you're just pro-communist or too young to remember that no one would have even thought supporting the Soviet Union during the 1940's-1980's yet people such as yourself have no problem at all supporting China. Maybe you don't understand the horrors of communism. In any case, I would say you shouldn't support China whenever possible. History tells us that's a very, very bad thing to do.


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

KillerBox said:


> Maybe because The USA is not harvesting Human Organs against peoples will to sell like China is?


They've got to get the frog parts somewhere and it's easier in China. PETA doesn't function in China so it's easier to harvest frogs there - and cheaper to boot!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Willbo said:


> They've got to get the frog parts somewhere and it's easier in China. PETA doesn't function in China so it's easier to harvest frogs there - and cheaper to boot!


It might be a joke for you but, I am sure at least 300,006 parents were not laughing:









China dairy products found tainted with melamine


Chinese officials seize dairy material tainted with the toxic chemical melamine, a practice that killed six babies in 2008.



www.bbc.com


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

KillerBox said:


> It might be a joke for you but, I am sure at least 300,006 parents were not laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's called sarcasm. Not a joke. A joke would be what's a rabbit's favorite breakfast? Ihop. Let's move on.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Willbo said:


> It's called sarcasm. Not a joke. A joke would be what's a rabbit's favorite breakfast? Ihop. Let's move on.


What about some lead contaminated honey for your iHop breakfast?









Tainted Chinese Honey May Be on U.S. Store Shelves | TIME.com


Millions of pounds of tainted Chinese honey are likely making their way onto U.S. store shelves, according to an investigation by Food Safety News (FSN).



healthland.time.com


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

KillerBox said:


> What about some lead contaminated honey for your iHop breakfast?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate the information. Very helpful. That's why I buy my honey local - I'm trying to tear down the Chinese economy one bottle at a time. Let's stop this madness please. You win.


----------

