# DSP Bread Truck Challenge. Gerald vs. Nick



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Who: Gerald (High Resolution Audio), and Nick (SkizeR)

What: Gerald challenged me to a friendly standalone DSP vs "magic" head unit only challenge. He thinks he can score better than me, in lets say a MECA format, without a full fledged processor and only his yet to be named head unit. I disagree. We will be taking turns tuning his truck with our own methods. Him only using his head unit, and me using a processor that i will supply (helix dsp). I would like to do this at a get together where multiple trained judges are in attendance so it would be fair. Judging would be blind. Winner takes home $500 (unless he wants to retract that statement).

Where: need to figure that out

When: also need to figure that out

Why: FOR SCIENCE! and friendly competition 

How: Blind judging. Multiple judges. Set amount of hours with vehicle before hand? Money put down to a neutral party before hand (again, unless he wants to retract that statement).


Anyone have any suggestions for where and when? any changes to the "format"? Remember, this is for fun. Lets keep it civil.

May the odds be ever in your favor Gerald :devil:


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

This is the actual challenge i proposed. Nick already modified it in two ways without discussing it with me prior.

I would be willing to put a wager.

Helix DSP Pro Mark II plus $500

I'll tune my system without an outboard DSP we will have it evaluated and judged blindly.

You install a Helix DSP Pro Mark II and tune the system.

We have it evaluated and judged blindly.

If you win, I'll buy the helix and pay you $500

If I win, you will buy me the helix and an additional $500.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> This is the actual challenge i proposed. Nick already modified it in two ways without discussing it with me prior.
> 
> I would be willing to put a wager.
> 
> ...


i dont have a dsp mkii. i just have a regular helix dsp to use, which i also dont want to sell you. you can buy your own though lol


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> i dont have a dsp mkii. i just have a regular helix dsp to use, which i also dont want to sell you. you can buy your own though lol


That's not how the challenge was proposed to you. 

1. The helix DSP PRO Mark II was part of the bet.

and

2. You changed the whole basis of the challenge. 

It was my system without Stand alone DSP vs

You adding a DSP to my system. 

You changed it to include my head unit only with or without DSP.

That's totally not what the wager was.


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## PorkCereal (Nov 24, 2009)

interesting old school vs new school challenge


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

What seating position?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

I like it...let's make this work...I have a minty DSP Pro (mk1) that I might be willing to put in (though NOT up for the winner) for the tuning challenge if that helps things along. I'll even pay for shipping BOTH ways if that helps get this off the ground.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

BigAl205 said:


> What seating position?


Well, assuming we go by meca rules.. driver. Unless Gerald wants to do center. I'd still prefer driver seat especially since his truck still sounded better from there after the removal of the processor 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

It's a long way off, but Unified Finals would be a good place. Lots of judges available to do the judging, and plenty of spectators to give the loser lots of ****. But, that's a long wait and a long drive for both of you.


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## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

High Resolution Audio said:


> That's not how the challenge was proposed to you.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing what the difference is here you're pointing out.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> That's not how the challenge was proposed to you.
> 
> 1. The helix DSP PRO Mark II was part of the bet.
> 
> ...




1) it seemed like you assumed i had one in my possession already. that is not the case. i cant afford one either right now. remember, its winter. snowboard bum lol.

2) well yeah your magical head unit or whatever you were talking about. i know you also have some analog eq's. have at it.


i would like to know which head unit and which seating position though. my vote is for driver seat, since you know.. thats the point of car audio


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I guess I'll follow this one as well.......


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> 1) it seemed like you assumed i had one in my possession already. that is not the case. i cant afford one either right now. remember, its winter. snowboard bum lol.
> 
> 2) well yeah your magical head unit or whatever you were talking about. i know you also have some analog eq's. have at it.
> 
> ...


If you carefully read post #2 which is the original wager the bet was for a new Helix Pro Mark II plus $500

No one assumed that you had one.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sure. ill take a mkii lol. drivers seat judging?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Since you do not want to go along with the original wager we we have to come up with a new wager.

It has been my opinion that if one purchases the right gear and it is used in the right install, very little tuning needs be done to have it sound great.

Many have been arguing that tuning is the most critical part of a vehicle install and is the most important to get a system sounding great. 

Nick, What is your opinion on the matter?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> sure. ill take a mkii lol. drivers seat judging?


Boy, you are the type of person that really needs a lawyer because you can not read.

If you read the original wager you never ended up with the Mk 11 

Either I paid for it and gave you $500

or you bought it for me and gave me $500

Dude you really need reading comprehension skills.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Since you do not want to go along with the original wager we we have to come up with a new wager.
> 
> It has been my opinion that if one purchases the right gear and it is used in the right install, very little tuning needs be done to have it sound great.
> 
> ...


i agree to pretty much any wager. or im down for just the 500 dollars. doesnt matter to me. 

no comment


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i guess i misunderstood what you originally meant. 

so how about this. no one buys anyone anything. 500 dollar bet. i provide my own dsp, and add it to your head unit.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok....I'm in for the wackiness....lol!


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Boy, you are the type of person that really needs a lawyer because you can not read.
> 
> If you read the original wager you never ended up with the Mk 11
> 
> ...


So, if you win, you get a dsp and $500 and if he wins he only gets $500. Seems fair. Either way, my money is on both of you bickering back and forth like an old married couple over the details until eventually one or both of you makes an excuse and backs out. Why don't you two just get together and beat each other off, then at least you'll have accomplished something.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> i agree to pretty much any wager. or im down for just the 500 dollars. doesnt matter to me.
> 
> no comment


You have to comment because part of the challenge will have to do with tuning time once gear has been installed and powered up.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

my opinion is that it depends. im not going to throw out a ridiculous percentage of what importance tuning, install, and gear takes


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Someone offered up a helix pro mk1. That's close enough to the mk2. 

So there you go. Nick said he'd run a DSP to your headunit. That's it. "Add a DSP", if you will. 

$500 to the person with the better sounding system, as deemed by an agreed upon judge from the driver's seat. 

Seems pretty easy to me.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

ErinH said:


> Someone offered up a helix pro mk1. That's close enough to the mk2.
> 
> So there you go. Nick said he'd run a DSP to your headunit. That's it. "Add a DSP", if you will.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify...offered up a DSP Pro to use in the challenge for Skizer's tuning and then returned to me with me paying shipping both ways, NOT as a prize to the winner...LOL


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

ErinH said:


> Someone offered up a helix pro mk1. That's close enough to the mk2.
> 
> So there you go. Nick said he'd run a DSP to your headunit. That's it. "Add a DSP", if you will.
> 
> ...


So you are the one putting up the $500 since you are comfortable in making the conditions of the wager and the rules?


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

:snacks:


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## bnae38 (Oct 3, 2015)

I'll wager.... that this never happens.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

This is going to be good 

:snacks:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So you are the one putting up the $500 since you are comfortable in making the conditions of the wager and the rules?


Nope. Just reiterating what was mentioned in the other thread and the conditions it seems both you and Nick are subscribing to here. If I'm incorrect in my assessment then feel free to clarify for everyone here. But there's no need for your passive aggressive response toward me. I'm just trying to keep you and Nick from unnecessarily going in circles. If this is going to be a game of semantics as it seems this is trending toward then I'm happy to close this thread for both your sakes.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

ErinH said:


> Nope. Just reiterating what was mentioned in the other thread and the conditions it seems both you and Nick are subscribing to here. If I'm incorrect in my assessment then feel free to clarify for everyone here. But there's no need for your passive aggressive response toward me. I'm just trying to keep you and Nick from unnecessarily going in circles. If this is going to be a game of semantics as it seems this is trending toward then I'm happy to close this thread for both your sakes.


I never agreed to driver's seat judging. Nick is the one that wants to hold the judging from the driver's seat and inferred that I was OK with it. 
Driver's or center seat had never been discussed. 

I only have tested the new old school head unit briefly (and analog EQs), mainly from the center seat, and for a couple of min in the driver's seat. Without doing extensive listening. The damn thing isn't even installed yet. 

I don't like how Nick took it upon himself to start this thread, while changing the terms of said wager to include conditions that I did not agree to.
If it is just a friendly challenge, or experiment that is one thing. But when money is on the line that is another.

But I would be willing to wager money on an old school vs new school battle. 

It has been my opinion and experience that purchasing and installing the right components when putting together a vehicle audio system will allow for very minimal tuning to get the system to sound great and do what is suppose to.

People have disagreed with me which lead to this thread. 

These are the terms that I propose:

1. A friendly challenge (with judges seated the center seat) my system vs Nick adding his helix DSP to the system and tuning it. Fractional points deducted for every min of tuning time needed.

OR

2. A wager for $500 judged from the drivers seat by multiple judges, my old school system ( including old school head unit, analog EQ's and ZAPCO Modern electronic crossover) vs any new school head unit and/or outboard DSP installed in my van. With an agreed upon time to tune.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Happy New Year, Everyone!!!!


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

Unless the truck is permanently modified to be driven from the center, why is anyone considering judging from there? 

Should be from the drivers seat, where everyone that doesn't own a supercar is driving from. 


Why not do this at finals, where a manufacturer rep or retailer could supply the processor? Im sure one would be willing to supply product to prove its worth.


Then it's a straight up bet. Maybe DSP supplier could auction it off right then for charity.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Sub'd!!!!

Side bets anyone!........I'm in for the DSP win


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Make it interesting give Nick 30mins to tune the car and give HRA 1.5hours to tune his setup - or something along those lines

I mean Nick is a professional HRA isn't - just like Master Chef the pro gets more time 

Use 3 judges - maybe average out the scores at the end

Tuning done with equal add on tuning tools - so if Nick brings a RTA HRA must be able to use it as well - if Nick brings something that HRA doesn't know how to use then a detailed explanation on how to use it will be given to level the playing field...


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Elektra said:


> if Nick brings something that HRA doesn't know how to use then a detailed explanation on how to use it will be given to level the playing field...


This thread is already about something HRA doesn't know how to use, DSP. If he knew how to use it we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Elektra said:


> Make it interesting give Nick 30mins to tune the car and give HRA 1.5hours to tune his setup - or something along those lines
> 
> I mean Nick is a professional HRA isn't - just like Master Chef the pro gets more time
> 
> ...


None of this is in the spirit of the debate. HRA has postulated that his "magic old school" SQ H/U with his tune is better than what can be achieved with an outboard DSP. By limiting Nick to .5 hrs and allowing HRA an hour more you concede that ErinH's statement that maybe HRA doesn't know enough about them. 

3 judges is fine though.

As far as tuning tools, again if HRA doesn't know how to use them then he cannot claim a superior sound.

None of this is a knock on HRA, he may well know how to do all of this and should not receive any favor in the competition.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

ca90ss said:


> This thread is already about something HRA doesn't know how to use, DSP. If he knew how to use it we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Man I missed that, PERFECT!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Locomotive Tech said:


> None of this is in the spirit of the debate. HRA has postulated that his "magic old school" SQ H/U with his tune is better than what can be achieved with an outboard DSP. By limiting Nick to .5 hrs and allowing HRA an hour more you concede that ErinH's statement that maybe HRA doesn't know enough about them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So you reckon a enthusiast that tuned part time against a guy who makes a living out of it is fair?

With no time and point penalty?

HRA can tune his car now and until he arrives at the challenge - HRA must get his car judged in a seating position that HE wants - I mean the stage setup from the drivers or center seat makes no difference 

Nick will be allowed 2 hours (or a prescribed agreed time) to transform HRA's car to something better in the seating position he wants.. 

3 judges - score out of 100 Nick must win by a clear 5-10 points (to be agreed upon) all judges scores to be combined and then averaged out to one final score...








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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

****....I say throw out the monies and dsp part of the wager, that will maybe keep this challenge in the right mood. Seems this is gonna get mean spirited if the risk is too great. I think there could be big fun in a lil "tune off" with simple boasting rights on the line. I say keep the challenge as initially posed by gerald, his system, with the head unit and analog pieces, in the seat of his choice, against nick, with the dsp, same seat.....no need to overcomplicate things, as it's simply a challenge to see who's tune gets better reviews.

As far as time limits go, I'd say gerald will have his tune set before he gets there, and Nick should be asked before hand how long he needs, and held to it.........proper tuning isn't a 30 minute job......


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Elektra said:


> So you reckon a enthusiast that tuned part time against a guy who makes a living out of it is fair?
> 
> With no time and point penalty? YES! The claim was made against the SQ of the H/U vs. a DSP. Nick offered the wager and it was accepted. DONE
> 
> ...


Let's allow the two perspective competitors to hash out the details


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Locomotive Tech said:


> Let's allow the two perspective competitors to hash out the details




Agreed...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Why so much secrecy on the headunit to be used?


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Bayboy said:


> Why so much secrecy on the headunit to be used?


There's always a lot of secrecy around audio voodoo. When the secrecy breaks down, people can use science to pick apart what really happened. People that believe in audio voodoo don't like it when science reveals their "secret sauce."


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> ****....I say throw out the monies and dsp part of the wager, that will maybe keep this challenge in the right mood. Seems this is gonna get mean spirited if the risk is too great. I think there could be big fun in a lil "tune off" with simple boasting rights on the line. I say keep the challenge as initially posed by gerald, his system, with the head unit and analog pieces, in the seat of his choice, against nick, with the dsp, same seat.....no need to overcomplicate things, as it's simply a challenge to see who's tune gets better reviews.
> 
> As far as time limits go, I'd say gerald will have his tune set before he gets there, and Nick should be asked before hand how long he needs, and held to it.........proper tuning isn't a 30 minute job......


I like to see all the suggestions and comments. It shows a lot of different perspectives. 

It has been my opinion that one can carefully select, purchase and properly install the right gear and get it to sound amazing with very little tuning.

THIS IS THE ENTIRE BASIS OF THE ARGUMENT AND CHALLENGE.

If we are talking about the center seat, I can have that system sounding better in 5 minutes or less with no RTA, computer, microphone, test tones, etc. If the electronic crossover is left as is, I can have the system tuned in under one minute.

Than Nick could with 1 hour of tuning with any new school head unit, and DSP, RTA and any other tools at his disposal from any seat of his choosing. 

See, its not a challenge about who can tune better, we all know that Nick can tune better than me. Its more so a proof that with careful selection of gear, one does not need to spend hours tuning to get great sound.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> If we are talking about the center seat, I can have that system sounding better in 5 minutes or less with no RTA, computer, microphone, test tones, etc. If the electronic crossover is left as is, I can have the system tuned in under one minute...
> 
> ...See, its not a challenge about who can tune better, we all know that Nick can tune better than me. Its more so a proof that with careful selection of gear, one does not need to spend hours tuning to get great sound.


So let me see if I got this straight...you think that old school is better (with the caveat that the listener is sitting perfectly centered between two speakers). To me, this is like saying you're a better runner because you use a motorcycle.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I like the challenge as you just laid it out. It should be a bet for dinner and gas money. Then there is something on the line but nobody is mad if they lose. I agree with Gerald that you can have a great, top tier system without a DSP if component placement and purchase was a forethought. However a perfect tune is next level stuff. Some people just don't understand "next level". Secondly if Gerald picks his car, with the equipment, he wants, setup the way he wants it's always going to sound better to him. It adds a bias to judging against something you didn't want. So it may be impossible to convince you that the DSP tune in your vehicle sounds better than what you did with a HU and some analog eq. 

It won't be hard to convince judges.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Theslaking said:


> I like the challenge as you just laid it out. It should be a bet for dinner and gas money. Then there is something on the line but nobody is mad if they lose. I agree with Gerald that you can have a great, top tier system without a DSP if component placement and purchase was a forethought. However a perfect tune is next level stuff. Some people just don't understand "next level". Secondly if Gerald picks his car, with the equipment, he wants, setup the way he wants it's always going to sound better to him. It adds a bias to judging against something you didn't want. So it may be impossible to convince you that the DSP tune in your vehicle sounds better than what you did with a HU and some analog eq.
> 
> It won't be hard to convince judges.


I like the dinner and gas money concept. Great idea. It makes it worthwhile while at the same time does not lead to bitterness.

I really don't even need the analog EQ from the center seat. When I add the analog EQ it adds for a very slight improvement.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

BigAl205 said:


> So let me see if I got this straight...you think that old school is better (with the caveat that the listener is sitting perfectly centered between two speakers). To me, this is like saying you're a better runner because you use a motorcycle.


I do not get the analogy.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I think this needs to happen ASAP to put the bickering to bed. My money is on Nick because he'll be able to dial in what the judges are looking for. It's not all about tonality.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

And drivers seat tune. If I was a judge I'd fall over laughing if I was told to sit directly in the center to judge.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I think this needs to happen ASAP to put the bickering to bed. My money is on Nick because he'll be able to dial in what the judges are looking for. It's not all about tonality.


Judges are looking for good stage height, and that its horizontal.
Stage width and depth.
Correct Imaging Left, Left of Center, Center, Right of Center and Right.
Pinpoint Focus of that image. 

That's not a hard concept to grasp.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Laser focus in a car needs a scalpel approach with l/r eq and time alignment. Smearing is a real problem in car audio. Ignorance is bliss.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Laser focus in a car needs a scalpel approach with l/r eq and time alignment. Smearing is a real problem in car audio. Ignorance is bliss.


I understand smearing. My system was full of it. There is way less of it now, because I made my drivers symmetrical in the cab. The right was 2 3/4" different than the left.

It was a tuning nightmare.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Where did this 'time' aspect get brought up? ...

Of course Nick will only have a certain amount of time because we don't expect Gerald to leave his truck with Nick for a day or week(s). So I understand the _necessity_ of it. But it seems some of you are being severely _unrealistic_ about it. 

Gerald drives this car every day... he's tuned with it numerous times. He knows it like the back of his hand. One of the biggest challenges with building a system and tuning it is understanding the environment you're tuning for and learning the install (if you didn't do it yourself). That takes time. Nick may have tuned Gerald's car before but he doesn't own the car and I imagine Nick didn't spend more than a day's worth of total time in it back then. 

I would never expect any person in this thread to tune my car from scratch in under a an hour and get it to a level I'm happy with, much less a level better than I can get it. It's just unreasonable. Heck, I don't think a day is realistic ... Regardless of the ear or tuning products you have. I just know my car/install. Others don't. This would be the same situation for Nick/Gerald. Giving Nick as little as an hour, much less 30 minutes, is handicapping him out the gate. That's hardly enough time to set crossovers, time and levels. He wouldn't even get to the EQ aspect which was really where all this started. I'd think a few hours (3) would be fair. It gives him time to actually listen and tune as opposed to rushing to get a tune cobbled together to meet the time limit of 30 minutes. 

I would feel differently about this if Nick were saying something to the effect of "I can tune your car better than you can in an hour". But he didn't quantify time. This whole thing started out with the blanket statement (no time ever mentioned) by Gerald that he thinks he can do better with his rather basic-DSP headunit than Nick can with a full fledged DSP (such as the Helix). No time was ever initially mentioned that I can remember. If you search "time" in this thread, you'll find the first person to mention it is Gerald on his 6th post in this thread. Further, Gerald is the one with the claim "It has been my opinion that if one purchases the right gear and it is used in the right install, very little tuning needs be done to have it sound great"*** which implies he wouldn't require much time himself... but that doesn't mean it's realistic to expect someone with no experience with the car to have it show-ready in an hour. Besides, there's no way for us to gauge how much time Gerald spent tuning... for all we know he could have put weeks' worth of tuning in to it. 

**BTW, I don't disagree with Gerald's statement but I do disagree that a system cannot benefit from higher resolution DSP options which is the foundation of this whole shoot-out: Gerald brings his (assumed minimal) headunit only-DSP and Nick uses an outboard DSP and they are judged based on what they each do with said resources. Really, this is going to be about how well each of them use what they have available to them. Which makes you realize how silly this whole thing is because it really should come down to a much simpler shoot-out where ONE experienced tuner used BOTH options (the headunit DSP and then the standalone DSP) and people judge those two tunes and determine which they prefer. This debate here is turning in to a Gerald vs Nick whereas the original notion is really boiled down to a debate between how much DSP is enough vs how much DSP is too much. *



Anyway... I know some of you tune your own car so I have to wonder why you think you can tune someone else's car in a meaningful way in 30 minutes to an hour. I could care less if Nick were a top-tier competitor... I'd still feel the same way.


Cliffs: This whole debate is rather silly because it's not a test of the original argument (how much DSP is enough) but rather a test of Gerald vs Nick and their tuning tools. Ignoring that, I think it's unrealistic to give Nick anything less than a few hours of tuning time since he doesn't know this install/vehicle as well as the owner. So there's my input: give Nick at least 3 hours. That's fair to him and still keeps the time frame short so you guys can do this and then head back home.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

As for doing this at Finals, I don't see how that's gonna happen. You aren't just going to show up and then go pluck a judge(s) from his already incredibly busy schedule and get him to go judge some random guy's car twice. 

I think whoever said to do this at a meet was on the right track. There are judges at meets, too. As long as it's a good-natured, spirited event I think a meet would be the better venue. You guys talking about doing this for gas/dinner makes this a much more 'fun' challenge and takes the negativity out of it.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I agree. 3 hours should be the minimum for Nick. Knowing he'll probably use an rta in there taking measurements and adjusting appropriately takes time. I figure 30 minutes for crossovers and levels, 2 hours for l/r eq and time alignment with rta, and 30 minutes for final tonality curve with a 3 hour time limit. I do feel like this whole debate is stupid. It's basically "diyma vs the stubborn bread truck owner".


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

To beat Gerald's 'sq' hu + 2 audio control analogue eq, one doesn't even need a full blown dsp. A p99 with the right tune would be more than enough.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

I still can't wrap my head around one thing. Just spent 20K on top of the line gear, amps, cables etc. THD differences of a hundredth thousandth of a percent are so important to HRA's selection of equipment and yet won't go the extra mile to add a DSP and maybe allow a pro to tune? 

If HRA's system sounds excellent (which I don't doubt based on his taste in equipment), then I would figure a DSP with a quality tune would sound phenomenal.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> And drivers seat tune. If I was a judge I'd fall over laughing if I was told to sit directly in the center to judge.


Agree!!
Tuning for center is too easy....and nobody drives in the center. HELLO ITS CAR AUDIO.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

To add to Erin's time thing. It just took me an 2 hours to set TA, level, crossover, and EQ on my Mom's limited tune 7 band Kenwood. If I was familiar with controls I might have been able to knock off a half hour. There was no fine tune. So yeah an hour would seem to be impossible.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Elektra said:


> So you reckon a enthusiast that tuned part time against a guy who makes a living out of it is fair?
> 
> With no time and point penalty?
> 
> ...


Make a living out of it? Last time I checked I was a freelance snowboarding filmer/photographer 

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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Make a living out of it? Last time I checked I was a freelance snowboarding filmer/photographer


Your reputation may have implicated you as such


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Locomotive Tech said:


> Your reputation may have implicated you as such


Well to be fair I used to work at a shop. But doing what you do for free anyway because it's so fun sounded better lol

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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Locomotive Tech said:


> Your reputation may have implicated you as such




I agree you quote for installs - I assumed you were a installer.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Well to be fair I used to work at a shop. But doing what you do for free anyway because it's so fun sounded better lol


Free Huh? How far from NYC are you? 

JK, would definitely pay. I have zero tuning skills. I was also thinking on getting two tunes from separate tuners and see the difference in approach, improvements, etc. I can only have four presets though.

It is a lot of fun playing with a DSP and each time I learn a bit more.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

ErinH said:


> I think whoever said to do this at a meet was on the right track. There are judges at meets, too. As long as it's a good-natured, spirited event I think a meet would be the better venue. You guys talking about doing this for gas/dinner makes this a much more 'fun' challenge and takes the negativity out of it.


I agree with this, doing it at a meet makes a lot more sense. Do you really even need judges though? I am not sure who is a judge of the guys I have met, but I certainly trust any one of you that I have met to sit in my vehicle and give an honest opinion. 



Locomotive Tech said:


> It is a lot of fun playing with a DSP and each time I learn a bit more.


Just keep doing this, if you don't already have one pick up a microphone and learn to use REW. I liked how my system sounded tuned by ear, using a calibrated microphone with REW (and a little HOLM Impulse thrown in) takes it to another level. Plenty of tutorials on here already to help out as well.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> And drivers seat tune. If I was a judge I'd fall over laughing if I was told to sit directly in the center to judge.


Have you ever seen Chris Pate's Civic?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bnae38 said:


> I'll wager.... that this never happens.


Maybe we should start a pool and charge $10 per square. :laugh:


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Both parties will be banned if the competition does not happen. How's that for motivation?



















*Kidding.*


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Hillbilly SQ said:
> 
> 
> > And drivers seat tune. If I was a judge I'd fall over laughing if I was told to sit directly in the center to judge.
> ...




Chris never competed in a regular class . An entire different class was made to accommodate his civic with the promise that other center drive vehicles would follow...that never happened and to my knowledge Chris only competed in a very small handful of shows with the Civic. Center drive/listening position is a huge advantage over lhd or rhd listening positions.


This whole bet is stupid Imo. As Erin pointed out anyone who suggests this be done at a finals has never been to... let alone judged a show of this magnitude. The last thing I ever want to do when judging at finals is go listen to another car outside of the event. Try judging 20+ vehicles with little food or breaks ...it's not easy.

Erin hit most of the other points already. I see no point to this thread whatsoever. It's basically a giant dick waving contest


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

ErinH said:


> Where did this 'time' aspect get brought up? ...
> 
> Of course Nick will only have a certain amount of time because we don't expect Gerald to leave his truck with Nick for a day or week(s). So I understand the _necessity_ of it. But it seems some of you are being severely _unrealistic_ about it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your opinion and words of advice.

The basis of the challenge in from my perspective, has been that if one selects the right SQ equipment, then one does not need hours upon hours of tuning, purchase stand alone DSPs, purchase laptops, microphones, software, to make the system sound awesome. 

Somewhere in prior threads I have brought this point up before, and people chimed in making fun of my claims stating it was bull and made smug remarks such as: 

"You mean to tell me that all these years we have been doing it wrong?"

"Without proper tuning there is no way you are going to get a system to sound good."

"There is no head unit that one can just install new or old school and get to sound good without a DSP"

Well, my point here, which I brought up in prior discussions, was that all the hours and hours of tuning were unnecessary unless one likes to tune and tinker and fiddle.

I've played with a Pioneer P99 on my system
I've played with an Alpine F#1 Status on my system.

All those hours, upon hours, upon hours of fiddling were basically giving me experience, but a waste of time. It just reconfirmed my original theory.

With the right gear selection, a tiny amount of tuning is needed.

I can install my old school head unit. Punch in some time alignment, set the treble to +3 and the bass to +1 and that's it. Done.

******disclaimer****** that is if the electronic crossover is left as is.

The system will have near perfect tonality, and stage properly and have sharp focus and do all the things it is suppose to. 

It sounds better than with the Pioneer P99 with hours and hours of fiddling.

And it sounds a minuscule better than with the Alpine F#1 and several months of tuning.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I've played with a Pioneer P99 on my system
> I've played with an Alpine F#1 Status on my system.
> 
> 
> ...


Have you considered the option that playing with the p99 or the F1 is very different from actually knowing how to tune? Have you considered the option that those who do know how to tune, could get much better results than you with either the p99 or the F1? Have you considered the option that hours and hours spent tuning the p99 mean little, if the tuning skills aren't up to speed? 

It's very easy to screw up the sound with so much of dsp that is used incorrectly......to the point where a setup without the dsp sounds much better.


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> Make a living out of it? Last time I checked I was a freelance snowboarding filmer/photographer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


what happened to that crazy, cool tuning rig you had at work in oregon, nick? i thought you worked at a shop?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

jtaudioacc said:


> what happened to that crazy, cool tuning rig you had at work in oregon, nick? i thought you worked at a shop?


That's a different Nick.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Have you considered the option that playing with the p99 or the F1 is very different from actually knowing how to tune? Have you considered the option that those who do know how to tune, could get much better results than you with either the p99 or the F1? Have you considered the option that hours and hours spent tuning the p99 mean little, if the tuning skills aren't up to speed?
> 
> It's very easy to screw up the sound with so much of dsp that is used incorrectly......to the point where a setup without the dsp sounds much better.


Hello Arun, and Happy New Year,

I am open to the possibility that someone with better tuning skills may be able to get better results with tuning than myself.

My system had lacked focus. Moving the right tower to be symmetrical in the cab with the left side fixed that.

Specifically with the P-99? No I do not think it is possible.

Specifically with the Alpine F#1? Possibly. Let me explain.

I was able to get the Alpine F#1 to sound nearly identical to my old school head unit. The difference was so slight, let me try my best to explain.


The overall imaging was identical, and the overall tone was nearly identical.

The only difference was the sound was more immersive. The only analogy I can use to describe it, would be the experience of listening to Quad Electrostatic speakers. The sound stage came back along my left side and right side as if there were speakers almost to my immediate left and right side and a little forward in my peripheral vision aimed at me, if that makes any sense. 

The difference was very slight......i do not understand what makes for the difference and what tuning changes might be able to be made to try and make the sound similar. 

Does this make any sense to you? Can you explain this phenomenon?

Can anyone with mad tuning skills tell me if this is a tuning issue ?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm interested to see how this turns out


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> My system had lacked focus. Moving the right tower to be symmetrical in the cab with the left side fixed that.


And now that you solved this problem how you enjoy your music?
did you move the steering wheel to the center or you just park the car sit to the 
center and enjoy your music?

if the second is the case i have a better idea.
remove all the gear from your car and take them home
build to speakers with them and add big power supply.

i bet they will sound even even better.

and to be a little serious dsp's have hit the market because there is no
such thing as symetrical listening position in a car.

if you want don't want to loose the bet i understand but you can't beat a dsp
if you are to tune for the driver's seat.

this is where a lot of tuning is required and you are trying to get away with it
but that's how a car is driven.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Have you ever seen Chris Pate's Civic?


I heard it, and it was extraordinary! Pate is a good dude too!


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

this thread hurt my brain.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, regarding the 'Challenge'.......if you guys get it straightened out how you want to do it (and more specifically, if you want to do it).......then it could possibly take place [where] at the NCSQ Meet [when] in early April. 

There will be qualified judges there.....or it could be a situation where all the participants take a listen and mark A or B.

That is.....if Gerald brings the truck to the meet AND if Nick is willing to come down or if he does his tune with the Helix prior to the event, and it is put in during the event. Just throwing that out there as a possibility if you guys really want to do this (and not get banned  ).


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

AVIDEDTR said:


> this thread hurt my brain.


Ha, ha, Julian. You don't have to follow it, if you really don't want to! lol


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

I come here to laugh and this was the pinnacle of recent threads 
I'd be more then happy to judge in 2017 (with my 20 min test disc of course)


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> Chris never competed in a regular class . An entire different class was made to accommodate his civic with the promise that other center drive vehicles would follow...that never happened and to my knowledge Chris only competed in a very small handful of shows with the Civic. Center drive/listening position is a huge advantage over lhd or rhd listening positions.





bertholomey said:


> I heard it, and it was extraordinary! Pate is a good dude too!


Not saying anything bad about Chris or his car. Just pointing out that a center seat vehicle wouldn't shock the judges.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

schmiddr2 said:


> Both parties will be banned if the competition does not happen. How's that for motivation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



deal, i could use 500 dollars or another reason to get off this forum lol


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

backousis said:


> And now that you solved this problem how you enjoy your music?
> did you move the steering wheel to the center or you just park the car sit to the
> center and enjoy your music?
> 
> ...


Well my friend,

Thank you for your input. Do you have any idea how loud the ambient noise is in my cab with the engine running and traveling at highway speed?

It happens to be 95 Decibels. I cannot truly enjoy listening to my system while traveling. It provides some background music while traveling from point A to point B.

However, after work, I travel to the Beach and enjoy listening to music for an hour or two. 

In the colder weather, I park my truck in my heated shop and enjoy listening to music and/or watching concerts.

I like to listen to music at about 95 DB with peaks over 100. I rent a basement apartment so I do not wish to disturb the people upstairs.

I do not feel that I could have a system of this caliber at home without spending about $35-50K. Even so, I don't even think that it would be possible to get it to sound in the home as good as the system in my van.

I have not yet installed the old school head unit, but I did purchase 30 band analog EQs to attempt to tune for the drivers seat, just in case I wanted to try and compete. This old school head unit has a 24 bit DSP built in, by the way.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bertholomey said:


> Well, regarding the 'Challenge'.......if you guys get it straightened out how you want to do it (and more specifically, if you want to do it).......then it could possibly take place [where] at the NCSQ Meet [when] in early April.
> 
> There will be qualified judges there.....or it could be a situation where all the participants take a listen and mark A or B.
> 
> That is.....if Gerald brings the truck to the meet AND if Nick is willing to come down or if he does his tune with the Helix prior to the event, and it is put in during the event. Just throwing that out there as a possibility if you guys really want to do this (and not get banned  ).


that would be pretty cool. april 8th might be cutting it close though. im filming snowboarding this winter for work and may still be on the road then. I appreciate the offer and if it works out, that might be a perfect time/place.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

AVIDEDTR said:


> I come here to laugh and this was the pinnacle of recent threads
> I'd be more then happy to judge in 2017 (with my 20 min test disc of course)


Thanks for the offer to judge. Do you know when the first competition is this spring at Syracuse Customs? That might be the easiest place to have this as Nick lives in New York.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for the offer to judge. Do you know when the first competition is this spring at Syracuse Customs? That might be the easiest place to have this as Nick lives in New York.


thats actually a great idea. maybe we can get geoff and julian and maybe one more(?) and do it while were all hangin out


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

bertholomey said:


> Well, regarding the 'Challenge'.......if you guys get it straightened out how you want to do it (and more specifically, if you want to do it).......then it could possibly take place [where] at the NCSQ Meet [when] in early April.
> 
> There will be qualified judges there.....or it could be a situation where all the participants take a listen and mark A or B.
> 
> That is.....if Gerald brings the truck to the meet AND if Nick is willing to come down or if he does his tune with the Helix prior to the event, and it is put in during the event. Just throwing that out there as a possibility if you guys really want to do this (and not get banned  ).


I appreciate the offers to have this done in the NC get together. It just would be at least a 6 day undertaking, not to mention the fuel expense. 

It's a lot for a $15,000 pound truck that have 1 foot thick leaf springs. 

Contrary to the rumor going around, my van was not a bread truck as they are not meant to carry much weight. Bread is mostly air.

Truck was used in Boston to deliver newspapers, which are extremely heavy. Not that it matters much, but it does affect ride quality, which makes for brutal long distance runs.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> thats actually a great idea. maybe we can get geoff and julian and maybe one more(?) and do it while were all hangin out


Do you mean Justin Campbell? Who is geoff?

Hey Nick,

They usually have competitions on Sundays. If you traveled up to Syracuse on the Saturday before, you could have a good part of the day to tune?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Do you mean Justin Campbell? Who is geoff?


geoff is the meca judge who was there at state finals. julian (AVIDEDTR) was the money round judge, and justin was the iasca judge. perfect


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

Sync up with Steve at Syracuse and Geoff, I will be there if avail(which is 100% probable)


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> geoff is the meca judge who was there at state finals. julian (AVIDEDTR) was the money round judge, and justin was the iasca judge. perfect


They usually hold competitions on Sunday. If I headed up to the Syracuse area Friday night, you could have all day Saturday to do your tuning. Is that something that you might be interested in?

You forgot about Brian???


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> They usually hold competitions on Sunday. If I headed up to the Syracuse area Friday night, you could have all day Saturday to do your tuning. Is that something that you might be interested in?


sure. or i could do it day of. doesnt matter to me


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> They usually hold competitions on Sunday. If I headed up to the Syracuse area Friday night, you could have all day Saturday to do your tuning. Is that something that you might be interested in?
> 
> You forgot about Brian???


Steve has business to run and Saturday are usually very busy. Time = Money over theories.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> sure. or i could do it day of. doesnt matter to me


If I went to the competition, I would tune for the drivers seat and enter the Van. 

I do not know how the rules work, I was wondering if they would allow you to enter my van in the competition with your tune, as well as entering your car?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> If I went to the competition, I would tune for the drivers seat and enter the Van.
> 
> I do not know how the rules work, I was wondering if they would allow you to enter my van in the competition with your tune, as well as entering your car?


like i said, im game for anything


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

AVIDEDTR said:


> Steve has business to run and Saturday are usually very busy. Time = Money over theories.


Just suggesting tuning time for Nick. It could be in the parking lot of the motel that I would be staying at on Saturday. No need to bother Steve's business.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> like i said, im game for anything


Were you ok with the dinner and gas money wager? Or do you wish just to do it as an experiment for science? lol

Either way is fine by me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Were you ok with the dinner and gas money wager? Or do you wish just to do it as an experiment for science? lol
> 
> Either way is fine by me.


Like I said, I'm game for anything lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Well my friend,
> 
> Thank you for your input. Do you have any idea how loud the ambient noise is in my cab with the engine running and traveling at highway speed?
> 
> ...


actually i didn't realise it was so noisy.
then you should spent a big amount of money for sound deadening and sound absorbing to make your truck more quite.

and i didn,t say to build a a home system.
i said to use what you have in your home.

it will sound much better trust me on this.

anyway about the bet nobody cares if you like to listening to your music parked.

everybody else is listening to his music from the driver's seat and that's the main reason dsp's are used for.

i think that's how it should be judged.

see it as way for all of as to learn something not who will win.

because in a different scenario even if you win the best results will be only valid
for your truck and your listening habits.

worthless for the rest of us.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

backousis said:


> actually i didn't realise it was so noisy.
> then you should spent a big amount of money for sound deadening and sound absorbing to make your truck more quite.
> 
> and i didn,t say to build a a home system.
> ...



I have plans to sound deaden as much as possible. Thanks for your suggestion. But those things cost money. I have to add more batteries, a shore power charging system, proper fuse distribution center, a switching system to charge both the house and starting batteries from the alternator. 

The system will be finished, but it is a work in progress. Little at a time, but eventually it will get there. 

Nobody cares if I listen to my music while parked? I care.......what are you trying to say? That I'm nobody? lol

I'm sure there might be just as many people interested in listening to the system at its maximum sound quality potential. I appreciate your input, but I don't think that you should speak for everyone. 

I feel that tuning for the driver's seat is not only a challenge, but also a compromise. It is my goal to create a system with as few compromises as possible. 

If I thought that I could get better sound by using an outboard DSP and paying for a tuning expert, then that's what I would do.

Many have suggested that I do not go that route and tune it myself. That's where I am at this point.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> sure. or i could do it day of. doesnt matter to me


The day of, would be not enough time. People say that proper tuning could take a full day or longer. 

ErinH has suggested a minimum of three hours.

If you are truly serious about doing this, then you need to make time for it. 

It would be a big distraction to do this the day of the competition. 

When you tuned the truck the first time, we were in your yard for several hours. Still did not have enough time to tune properly as we figured out at the end of the session that the right tweeters polarity was switched in the DSP settings to 180 out of phase. When switching it back in phase it made the right tweeter 2DB too hot. Didn't even realize this till I got home. 

One has to allow enough time for a non rushed non-pressure environment for tuning.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The day of, would be not enough time. People say that proper tuning could take a full day or longer.
> 
> ErinH has suggested a minimum of three hours.
> 
> ...


yeah we were in my driveway for several hours, but remember.. we were also bullshitting and hanging out. when i tune my two way plus sub system, it usually takes just a hair under two hours to get it just about there. maybe another hour of fiddling until im satisfied. 3 hours is just enough. im down to do it saturday. let me talk to geoff to see if hes making it out


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> yeah we were in my driveway for several hours, but remember.. we were also bullshitting and hanging out. when i tune my two way plus sub system, it usually takes just a hair under two hours to get it just about there. maybe another hour of fiddling until im satisfied. 3 hours is just enough. im down to do it saturday. let me talk to geoff to see if hes making it out


Is there a date yet for the first competition in Syracuse?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Is there a date yet for the first competition in Syracuse?


I don't think so

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

I still can't believe you pulled the f1 stuff out.
Just the change in noise floor was enough of a change to win for me, and I heard it before nick and the f1. I still have the rew plots from before nick if you want them


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

capea4 said:


> I still can't believe you pulled the f1 stuff out.
> Just the change in noise floor was enough of a change to win for me, and I heard it before nick and the f1. I still have the rew plots from before nick if you want them


It's still in there as of today. The noise was because of the routing of the power and interconnect wires. I was able to test both old school head units I have to make comparisons, briefly. It had no noise on the system.


Did you happen to read post #75? 

Curious to know if you have any thoughts regarding that phenomenon?


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm starting to understand you think expensive equipment is more important then treating the van itself. I think all of this BS has come full circle.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

DC/Hertz said:


> I'm starting to understand you think expensive equipment is more important then treating the van itself. I think all of this BS has come full circle.


I like your positive comments. Very helpful. Thanks for the tips.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I like your positive comments. Very helpful. Thanks for the tips.


So HRA,you are saying that treating the environment (sound deadening, decoupling, closed cell foam, MLV, etc) and tuning to the environment is all a bunch of BS?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

jriggs said:


> So HRA,you are saying that treating the environment (sound deadening, decoupling, closed cell foam, MLV, etc) and tuning to the environment is all a bunch of BS?


No not at all. I believe that containing the sound in the listening environment is very important. I feel as it gives the bass more impact as it has no place to go but into the body and adds to the whole entire listening experience. I'm sure it has an affect on the mid-range and high end, but I'm not sure.

Mike Young's beetle had the cleanest sounding bass I have ever heard and his beetle had major deadening in it. 

I will put sound deadening in at some point as I move along with this project and I'm sure I will need to re-tune after I do so. 

This project has been a multi year undertaking. A lot of labor and expenses. I can't possibly do everything at once. Especially as I am using the vehicle for work Monday - Friday. 

I don't understand where your comment came from?


----------



## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I have plans to sound deaden as much as possible. Thanks for your suggestion. But those things cost money. I have to add more batteries, a shore power charging system, proper fuse distribution center, a switching system to charge both the house and starting batteries from the alternator.
> 
> The system will be finished, but it is a work in progress. Little at a time, but eventually it will get there.
> 
> ...



sound deadening is way more important than expensive gear and not only for the bass but for all spectrum so it should be a priority instead of changing
head units.

no i am saying you are nobody. the opposite the person who pays for the system 
have the last word.
i was talking about the bet.

all of us enjoy our systems better with the car parked but we still can enjoy our music while driving.

a dsp is win win situation and if you believe tuning for driver's side is compromise i believe that even then it can add to the sq with better crossover
points and eq.

you can still make to presets one for driving and one for when you are parked.

anyway the good thing is you are open minded and you are experimenting
so even if it take you longer we will get there at the end.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bertholomey said:


> Well, regarding the 'Challenge'.......if you guys get it straightened out how you want to do it (and more specifically, if you want to do it).......then it could possibly take place [where] at the NCSQ Meet [when] in early April.
> 
> There will be qualified judges there.....or it could be a situation where all the participants take a listen and mark A or B.
> 
> That is.....if Gerald brings the truck to the meet AND if Nick is willing to come down or if he does his tune with the Helix prior to the event, and it is put in during the event. Just throwing that out there as a possibility if you guys really want to do this (and not get banned  ).


I was thinking the same thing Jason. If Nick couldn't make it maybe he could have the tune emailed or mailed on a flash drive to be put in the processor. Then have a few people agree that nothing was compromised from stuff like gain tweaking. Have Nick give specifics that can be verified through measurements beforehand. I'm not saying Gerald would sabotage the Helix tune because I do believe he's way above that. TRUST BUT VERIFY. The biggest thing would be to keep this fun and civil. No hurt feelings and we all just might learn something. I also feel like a drivers seat tune would be the way to go. After all, most of us drive vehicles where it would hurt like hell to sit in the middle to listen and I'm all about keeping this fair just as if Gerald were driving a regular vehicle.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Hello Arun, and Happy New Year,


Hi Gerald, wishing you happy, healthy and prosperous new year too. 




High Resolution Audio said:


> Specifically with the P-99? No I do not think it is possible.
> 
> Specifically with the Alpine F#1? Possibly.


I would take on your challenge with a p99, simply because then it is more of an equal shoot out i.e. you have TA and xovers in your HU and 2 analogue eq, one for each side. Similarly the p99 has TA, xovers and 31 bands per side. So now the two have similar span of control and if anything, the p99 has better resolution. Now it's purely down to tuning skills. 

The p99 vs the F1? Whenever we're comparing two dsp's, the two most critical things to look at are, span of control and resolution (assuming no software issues). So an eq per channel is greater span of control vs a 31 band eq per side and adjusting each frequency in steps of 0.1 db if finer resolution than 0.5 db. IIRC the H990 gives 31 bands per side like the p99, while TA on the p99 has a better resolution, 0.02 ms vs 0.05 on the F1 etc. Nutshell, in the hands of an experienced tuner, the two units should give more or less the same sound. 

Certainly not the day and night difference you mention. Caveat: I've never used the F1 but I have tuned setups with the p99 and WOW it's an amazing unit. 




High Resolution Audio said:


> I was able to get the Alpine F#1 to sound nearly identical to my old school head unit. The difference was so slight, let me try my best to explain.
> 
> 
> The overall imaging was identical, and the overall tone was nearly identical.
> ...


If the sound gives you a perception of where the speakers are located, then the tune is off. With the right tune, you should not be able to locate the speakers at all, you should locate the instruments and the vocalist yes, but speakers? Never. Now, if the tune is out, the chances of getting perfect tonality and imaging are equal to that of a snowflake in hell. I'm not dissing your tune, just stating facts. 

As a first step, you need to hear the difference between your 2ch and your truck. Trust me, there is a huge difference and once you start to hear this difference you may start to see value of DSP. Pick a well recorded dynamic song and listen to it on your 2 ch with your eyes closed and a blank mind. Take in the sound aurally, visually and the tactile element. Just immerse yourself in the sound and experience it. Listen to the same song 4-5 times on the 2ch and then immediately after, in your truck. At first the two will sound similar, do it 2-3 times a day and in a couple of days, you will start to hear subtle differences, keep going till these subtle differences start to jump out at you. 

Andy had posted graphs of a speaker in a car measured 1" from the cone and then at ear level. A flat response 1" from the cone becomes a graph with huge peaks and dips above ~500hz thanks to your environment. This will happen with any vehicle, any install, any equipment in all cars/trucks/suv's etc. So you're listening to this jagged response, but you're not hearing a difference. You need to hear the difference first.

Lastly, any tuner worth his or her salt accepts perception bias as a fact, in this hobby. Which is why the tuner validates the tune again and again. Your ears will hear what you want them to every time and it is only when you truly hear the difference that you can overcome the perception bias. Perception bias is what causes one to walk away at night from a tuning session, thinking I nailed it, only to come back the next day and think WTF was I hearing last night?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

......before you come back and tell me that based on your critical listening, how your truck sounds very close to your 2ch, download an rta app for your phone and play the full range PN in your truck and take a screen shot on the app. Next play the PN in your 2ch and measure at the sweet spot and take a screen shot. Now compare the two, big difference?.......but you're not hearing that difference....... .


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Hi Gerald, wishing you happy, healthy and prosperous new year too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for reaching out to me yet again Arun. And for your well wishes! Same to you and your family.

I guess I portrayed the wrong picture with my description. Forgive me it is hard to describe. 

The sound stage was more immersive with the Old School head unit than with the F#1 DSP.
Tonality was the same.
Imaging was the deeper and wider.
Focus was the same.
One can't tell where the speakers are located with both systems.

With the Old School unit the sound is more immersive. The stage is wider and deeper. 

If the F#1 sound stage spanned like the hands of a clock it be about from the 10:30 to 1:30 position.

With the Old School Unit, the sound stage extended back from about the 9:30 to the 2:30 position. 

That would be the difference I was trying to relay. In other words, I gained a couple hours in the Time Machine. lol

I have noticed more depth as well. The center image was about 1 foot from the windshield. Now it seems like it may be closer to 2 or 2 1/2 feet out in front of the windshield. 

What could account for the difference?

P.S. no analog eq as of yet.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

What is the old school headunit you're referencing? I don't know if you're trying to be secretive or what but it would help in regards to troubleshooting and figuring out how best for you and Nick to do your challenge.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

ErinH said:


> What is the old school headunit you're referencing? I don't know if you're trying to be secretive or what but it would help in regards to troubleshooting and figuring out how best for you and Nick to do your challenge.


I'm sorry I can't say as of yet. I have gone back in time to seek one out. I have to keep it under wraps for now.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> With the Old School unit the sound is more immersive. The stage is wider and deeper.
> 
> If the F#1 sound stage spanned like the hands of a clock it be about from the 10:30 to 1:30 position.
> 
> With the Old School Unit, the sound stage extended back from about the 9:30 to the 2:30 position.


If you want describe it like that, then the stage should extend from 9 to 3. Go to the Time machine and sit in the seat you used. Are the speakers between 2:30 and 9:30? It's the tune. My friend, you are focusing on all the wrong things and I'm at a loss how to bring you back on track. Was the tune exactly the same in both cases? Was the resolution on TA & EQ in both setups the same? Cause if it wasn't, then it wasn't the same tune. 

Do me a favour, take this one step at a time and download the rta app and figure out for yourself if you should be hearing a difference between the Time Machine and your 2ch.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> What could account for the difference?



Must be the holographic tube sound from your Panny Bottlehead.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> If you want describe it like that, then the stage should extend from 9 to 3. Go to the Time machine and sit in the seat you used. Are the speakers between 2:30 and 9:30? It's the tune. My friend, you are focusing on all the wrong things and I'm at a loss how to bring you back on track. Was the tune exactly the same in both cases? Was the resolution on TA & EQ in both setups the same? Cause if it wasn't, then it wasn't the same tune.
> 
> Do me a favour, take this one step at a time and download the rta app and figure out for yourself if you should be hearing a difference between the Time Machine and your 2ch.


If all goes as planned, tomorrow I will be removing the AlpineF#1 and installing the Old School SQ head unit. The pink noise track is in the shop. It may take a while.

P.S. My 2 channel home system does not image for ****. It is the bi-polar Definitive Tech's. But I'll do it.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Elektra said:


> *So you reckon a enthusiast that tuned part time against a guy who makes a living out of it is fair?*
> 
> With no time and point penalty?
> 
> ...



Yes... A large portion of the argument is the importance of DSP and tuning to making a great sounding system.

It should certainly be from the drivers position since that is where almost all listening happens in nearly every vehicle- not in a center position. Plus it's already been said by the owner that it sounds as good from both positions.

Why should there be a time or point penalty? That is nonsense. Gerald will have all the time he wants leading up to the event to get it just the way he wants.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Changing gears, it was stated that the van has leafs that can support an insane amount of weight. You might be able to redo the leafs to give it a softer ride. Maybe put leafs you'd find on a bread truck under there since you probably don't carry much more than a load of bread would weigh. I know I've had a couple trucks where I wished I would have pulled a layer out to make the ride softer.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Niebur3 said:


> Have you ever seen Chris Pate's Civic?



Unfortunately retired because there is no real center seat format for competition.


----------



## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I can talk to Brian and Geoff. I had Geoff come out to do the MECA portion of the show last year for Julian's mega show at Syracuse Customs as I typically organize the Meca side for those events at Steve's place. Geoff comes from Ohio so that would be a tough one to get him over there for it. That show was a special event.

I am also a meca certified judge and could take part in judging if you guys would like. Depending on the date of course. It would make sense to do this for a show and I'm sure Steve will graciously allow us to do another series of shows up there as he has for the last couple years, but I'd want to check with him prior before making any assumptions. He's a good dude and has opened up his shop for us to do these so I don't want to step on any toes.

As for judges, Justin, Brian and Julian can all judge Iasca I believe, and Brian has done several Meca events for us as well. I wouldn't want to _assume _any of them are available or willing, but if it works out for schedules, they are usually awesome with being able to do the events. I'll take a look at the meca schedule and see when would make sense to try to schedule in the shows for this season.

I haven't listened to the truck yet (just seen it) but I have heard some good things about it. Looking forward to hearing it either way- whether judging or not.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> I can talk to Brian and Geoff. I had Geoff come out to do the MECA portion of the show last year for Julian's mega show at Syracuse Customs as I typically organize the Meca side for those events at Steve's place. Geoff comes from Ohio so that would be a tough one to get him over there for it. That show was a special event.
> 
> I am also a meca certified judge and could take part in judging if you guys would like. Depending on the date of course. It would make sense to do this for a show and I'm sure Steve will graciously allow us to do another series of shows up there as he has for the last couple years, but I'd want to check with him prior before making any assumptions. He's a good dude and has opened up his shop for us to do these so I don't want to step on any toes.
> 
> ...


Steve, check your pm's

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Mic10is said:


> I see no point to this thread whatsoever. It's basically a giant dick waving contest


I'm in!


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

rton20s said:


> I'm in!


You're a natural and no one can come close:crown:


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Changing gears, it was stated that the van has leafs that can support an insane amount of weight. You might be able to redo the leafs to give it a softer ride. Maybe put leafs you'd find on a bread truck under there since you probably don't carry much more than a load of bread would weigh. I know I've had a couple trucks where I wished I would have pulled a layer out to make the ride softer.


That might be a good idea. The Gross Vehicle Weight is 21,500 pounds

Right now the truck weighs about 15,500 pounds. 

I may put an air suspension seat in her...


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

captainobvious said:


> Unfortunately retired because there is no real center seat format for competition.


I starting my build when there was a class "Expert Solo".

But the rug got pulled out from underneath me, mid build. 

C'est la vie


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Build update.

Spent the day permanently installing the Old School SQ head unit that I spent the day with testing last week in order to make this comparison. 

I never ever thought that RCA interconnect cables made much of a difference. I even expressed that to Nick (SkizeR) when I first met him in the fall of 2016.

Boy was I wrong. With the radio shack cables, I had the following tone controls:

Before cable swap Bass: 1 Treble 3 Media Xpander On

After cable swap Bass: 0 Treble -1 Media Xpander OFF

The 4 clicks on the treble totally surprised me. So did having to turn off the Media Xpander

But what was more interesting was the depth and realism that appeared out of no where. 

I guess my listening skills are evolving or something cool is happening.

The stage got much deeper and more 3 dimensional. Instruments and sounds appeared to fall in place from front to back at many varying distances. It was if there were a defining space around each instrument. 

In the last few weeks, as the imaging and focus evolved with the system, more left/right up/down became apparent to me. 2 dimensions. 

Today, this 3 dimensional stage has appeared with a front and back and relative distances where instruments lie on that stage with varying distances becoming very apparent.

The system sounds unreal from the center. Not as good from the driver's seat.

I moved to the driver's seat, did some T/A and clicked the balance to the right 1. (before cable swap it was 2-3 to the right to get center where it was suppose to fall.)

I popped in the IASCA disk and put on the Imaging Track. The left side imaged fairly well, but there was some problems with the right. It appears that there are different L/R responses that need to be corrected for. ( Unless the cause it is the directional cable I noticed I installed backwards on the right side input ) It was too late in the day to change it and I didn't think it would matter. I'll flip it before I do any tuning, just in case. 

Next time I have some time I'm going to hook up the audio control analog 30 band EQ units and see if I can correct the imaging on the right side. ( If it needs it after the cable swap ) 

Now I'm wondering if the sound is going to change once the cables get "burned in". I never believed in high end cables mattering, nor with "burning in" of equipment. Now I'm open to the possibility.

The good news is with the old school SQ head unit the overall FR curve is near perfect in my opinion. I guess this head unit has a built in 24 bit DSP.

At least that leaves me one less area that needs tuning.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> I'm in!


I can always count on you for great entertaining Gifs and Memes. Wonderful, positive, helpful comments, too! lol


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Build update.
> 
> Spent the day removing the F#1 status and installing the Old School SQ head unit.
> 
> ...


wait a second...am i reading that right>>> You swapped the HU and also the RCA cables and you feel that it was the cables that made you need to change the bass and treble knobs??


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> wait a second...am i reading that right>>> You swapped the HU and also the RCA cables and you feel that it was the cables that made you need to change the bass and treble knobs??


No. I had spent a whole day testing out the Old School SQ HU the other day last week. I actually installed it today. So the comparison was from just a cable swap only. 


(The F#1 status does not have tone controls by the way)


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Directional RCA cables huh


----------



## grinkeeper (Jun 26, 2015)

Popcorn in hand!!!!


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I guess this head unit has a built in 24 bit DSP.


Optimized for the Time Machine?


----------



## fcarpio (Apr 29, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> i guess i misunderstood what you originally meant.
> 
> so how about this. no one buys anyone anything. 500 dollar bet. i provide my own dsp, and add it to your head unit.


Simple is better and this makes sense. The winner can use the money towards a DSP of choice. $500 cash on the spot I assume?

Subbed.

EDIT: Seems I am a little late for this party.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

DC/Hertz said:


> Directional RCA cables huh




:snacks:


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

DC/Hertz said:


> Directional RCA cables huh


First off, I was not a believer in cables making that much of a difference. 

Second, being an electrician, i cannot see how cables can be directional ???

But now I'm open to the idea.

We will see when I swap the cable end for end if the staging issue changes on the right.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> Directional RCA cables huh


Not uncommon. You have a ground shield "drain" that is connected only at the source side. This is why the cables are directional. Lot's of information and debate on the subject, if you really want to look into it. 

One of the more recent RCA discussions...
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/272914-explain-shielded-twisted-pair-cables-rca-connectors.html


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

So Gerald, now that it is installed, are you going to finally reveal which "Old School SQ head unit" you've obtained?

I'd be curious to know which RCAs you went with as well.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

rton20s said:


> So Gerald, now that it is installed, are you going to finally reveal which "Old School SQ head unit" you've obtained?
> 
> I'd be curious to know which RCAs you went with as well.


has to be an Alpine bc he said it had Media Expander (MX)
which means it really cant be THAT old


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Mic10is said:


> has to be an Alpine bc he said it had Media Expander (MX)
> which means it really cant be THAT old


----------



## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

it's been a while since we've seen a video. jus sayin.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

little off topic.. i think it was Arun (Sqnut) who was asking for this photo.. found it


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> little off topic.. i think it was Arun (Sqnut) who was asking for this photo.. found it


As you know, my friend, a typical vehicle install has the drivers located at less then optimal placements, and usually separated inside the interior. 

My van is basically more akin to a home rig. Drivers are located together and at ear level with nothing but air between the listening positions. 

As Brian (Supra5) has stated before it's like having a pair of bookshelf speakers in the corners of a small room. 

The modal responses are far less in my van than in a normal vehicle install.
This is where most, I think, are having problems believing no need for a DSP.

The environment to which this system is installed is more like a home than it is a car.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rton20s said:


> So Gerald, now that it is installed, are you going to finally reveal which "Old School SQ head unit" you've obtained?
> 
> I'd be curious to know which RCAs you went with as well.


Alpine HU

Audioquest Cables


----------



## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> As you know, my friend, a typical vehicle install has the drivers located at less then optimal placements, and usually separated inside the interior.
> 
> My van is basically more akin to a home rig. Drivers are located together and at ear level with nothing but air between the listening positions.
> 
> ...


If it warms up tomorrow, I'll take some near field measurements of my doors, and then some from directly between the headrests with the top up, and from between the headrests with the top down.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

rton20s said:


> Not uncommon. You have a ground shield "drain" that is connected only at the source side. This is why the cables are directional. Lot's of information and debate on the subject, if you really want to look into it.
> 
> One of the more recent RCA discussions...
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/272914-explain-shielded-twisted-pair-cables-rca-connectors.html


You'll have to forgive me if I don't have the time to dig through all that, but where is this drain on an RCA cable and to what is it connected? I mean I get the idea of a drain on one end of a termination - just not in regards to unbalanced RCA.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rob feature said:


> You'll have to forgive me if I don't have the time to dig through all that, but where is this drain on an RCA cable and to what is it connected? I mean I get the idea of a drain on one end of a termination - just not in regards to unbalanced RCA.


Post #55 on the link in from his quote


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rob feature said:


> You'll have to forgive me if I don't have the time to dig through all that, but where is this drain on an RCA cable and to what is it connected? I mean I get the idea of a drain on one end of a termination - just not in regards to unbalanced RCA.


Or you can read this:

Directionality: It’s All About Noise


----------



## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Man I would really like to bring my TDR with me to see if the "Cable Claims" are real or myth.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Locomotive Tech said:


> Man I would really like to bring my TDR with me to see if the "Cable Claims" are real or myth.


Cables can make a noticeable sound difference. I had to adjust my treble from +3 to -1 after cable swap. Scientifically, That can be measured with an RTA.

On a subjective note, I also noticed more depth in my sound stage.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Well I can tell you this, I have a very good friend who has a very impressive home stereo and when he told me about his new set of $700 rca's I asked if I could have a look at them.

Can't remember if they were twisted shielded whatever's but I can tell you this, we removed the old, installed the new several different times and each time I measured a completely different total reflection sum. Sum of all measureable reflections. 

Keep in mind we did this with the RCA's disconnected from the Hi Fi and only connected them to the SSTDR and placed a 10ohm resistor at each end for a reference.

There were instances where the Stingers were less reflective and some where the High RCA's were less reflective. Overall the high end ones consistently out performed the Stingers by a small margin.

BUT, I crushed his ego when after some fiddling, he re-installed is Premiums and tidy-ed them up behind the console and we measured again and found that the final install was worse than any of the previous tests. Now he still believed that the premiums sounded better which I could not discern but is there a correlation between reflections in the signal chain and depth of sound. 

The premiums were re-routed to remove the several coils he made to Hide the cabling behind the console and he swore that the sound was now lacking. I don't have the ear for that but I wonder if the reflections naturally align 180 degrees out of phase with the out put signal and that contributes to the sound (or retracts from). Or do they naturally align 100% in phase and does that affect the sound.

I sense a profit in the solution to this dilemna or..............complete bunk


----------



## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Live wire should combine a SSTDR overlapped on an Oscilliscope graph cause we gots to know!!


----------



## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

> I sense a profit in the solution to this dilemna or..............complete bunk


Quotable!!!


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Locomotive Tech said:


> The premiums were re-routed to remove the several coils he made to Hide the cabling behind the console and he swore that the sound was now lacking. I don't have the ear for that but I wonder if the reflections naturally align 180 degrees out of phase with the out put signal and that contributes to the sound (or retracts from). Or do they naturally align 100% in phase and does that affect the sound.
> 
> I sense a profit in the solution to this dilemna or..............complete bunk


Well obviously your friend forgot to use "Cable Isolators" which were highly recommended even by the "skeptics" at the Absolute Sound for TWO years in a row--

highend-electronics Products: Precision Audio Products


Jonathan Valin, The Absolute Sound:

"The darn things do lower noise, increase dynamics, remove haze, and open up the top octaves. Once you listen to their effects, even a skeptic like me has to admit that it is hard to take them back out of the system. Music sounds more like music with the Cable Elevators in place. I recommend them strongly, especially given their price!"

I mean how can anyone argue with a description and recommendation like THAT ^^ ...LOL


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> little off topic.. i think it was Arun (Sqnut) who was asking for this photo.. found it


Thanks Nick, yes those are the ones.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> As you know, my friend, a typical vehicle install has the drivers located at less then optimal placements, and usually separated inside the interior.
> 
> My van is basically more akin to a home rig. Drivers are located together and at ear level with nothing but air between the listening positions.
> 
> ...


So in those graphs, look at the ear level response. Everything under ~500 hz is down to room modes, either from the dimensions of the vehicle, or things like speaker distance from centre console etc etc. Everything over 500hz is down to reflections. There is no 'street legal' vehicle, that would not suffer these reflections AND modes, No matter where you place the speakers you will get low end modes based on physical dimensions and above 500hz the reflections would kick in. 

When you have a lot of hard reflective surfaces that are closer to the speakers, than the speakers are to your ears, and considering the speaker is omni directional for 80-90% of the bandwidth it's playing, THEN you're only hearing about 10% direct sound and the rest is reflections. Where you place the speakers in a vehicle has little bearing when it comes to reflections or modes. What you're hearing in a vehicle is the sum of the directed and reflected sound, and we correct the direct sound to correct the combined response we're hearing, since we can't eq direct and reflected sound separately.

Like I suggested, measure the TM and then measure your room in the sweet spot, you'll see the difference, and even in your room measurement you will find nodes based on the dimensions of the room, typically these modal frequencies will be lower in the room, since your living room is bigger than the TM.

Edited for better clarity.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Cables can make a noticeable sound difference. I had to adjust my treble from +3 to -1 after cable swap. Scientifically, That can be measured with an RTA.
> 
> On a subjective note, I also noticed more depth in my sound stage.


How does our brain perceive distance of the sound (depth in this case)? By rolled of highs. Sound that comes from a distance will have the highs rolled off, since the higher frequencies attenuate more based on the distance they travel from the source.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I noticed more space around each instrument. Each instrument has an extreme boundaries and focus now. 

The stage has layering. Relative distances to each instrument becomes obvious.

Thinking it could have been just my ears, I asked my 22 year old helper to listen yesterday.

First words out of his mouth was the exact same as mine......."Each instrument has more space around it." 

And other differences?

" I noticed the cymbals hanging in the air longer."
this was something I did not notice.

Anything else?

" There is more depth"

The two of us both hear the same differences, while listening to music. 

Eventually, as he listens to the Imaging track on the new IASCA disc, he hears more width as well to the stage as the far left and right now image in back of the speakers as opposed to ending at the speakers. 

I don't think this phenomenon can be created simply by changing the response curve,
but I'm very inexperienced when it comes to tuning, so correct me if I'm wrong???


----------



## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Post #55 on the link in from his quote


So this looks like the shield ties into the neutral. Seems to me, as Jazzi points out in the next post, this could just as easily act as an antenna.



High Resolution Audio said:


> Or you can read this:
> 
> Directionality: It’s All About Noise


I don't even


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I noticed more space around each instrument. Each instrument has an extreme boundaries and focus now.
> 
> The stage has layering. Relative distances to each instrument becomes obvious.
> 
> ...


Everything you describe is captured in your ear level response, FR+timing. It's as simple or complicated as you want to make it. If you want to make the TM a truly certified, world class experience, then equipment is just a small part of the journey.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I noticed more space around each instrument. Each instrument has an extreme boundaries and focus now.
> 
> The stage has layering. Relative distances to each instrument becomes obvious.
> 
> ...


Also keep in mind that to _really_ hear and feel things like, depth of stage and the space around each instrument etc, all this has to be in the recording, in the first place. Very, _very_ few recordings are made this way these days, simply because music is no longer recorded in a room, but as individual instruments / vocals which are then put together by the engineer. 

The upside is its easier and quicker while the downside is that the whole 'ambiance' of the room and the band members arranged in it, so as to give a perception of width, depth, and size of room, is lost. A lot of the big bands from 60-70's are very well recorded and albums like Sgt Peppers throw an almost holographic stage, but recordings like this are few and far between, when you look at all the stuff out there. 

If you ever get into tuning seriously, one of the first things you'll discover is the relation between your brain and ears. The ears are the device that detects and transmits the sound (eg mic) and the brain process the sound into what we hear. The one things you'll discover real quick is, that if our brains wants or expects to hear something, the ears will oblige every single time. The only way to build reliable ears is by constantly checking, is it really better or are the ears playing tricks again. This is where having a solid base as your ref sound comes in.

If my ears tell me that I have greater stage depth and spacing with a change in cable / hu / amp etc, but are unable to tell say the tonal difference between my car and my 2ch, then my ears are still learning. One can't progress in this hobby without accepting that psychoacoustics plays a huge role in this hobby, based purely on the way we hear.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> little off topic.. i think it was Arun (Sqnut) who was asking for this photo.. found it



Not to take sides, because quite honestly this entire thing is complete and total BS but whatever.

Taking measurements 1" from a driver in ANY environment is going to give favorable measurements vs taking them from the listening position.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Not to take sides, because quite honestly this entire thing is complete and total BS but whatever.
> 
> Taking measurements 1" from a driver in ANY environment is going to give favorable measurements vs taking them from the listening position.


That was the point. To show how much the car wrecks the response.


----------



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Also keep in mind that to _really_ hear and feel things like, depth of stage and the space around each instrument etc, all this has to be in the recording, in the first place. Very, _very_ few recordings are made this way these days, simply because music is no longer recorded in a room, but as individual instruments / vocals which are then put together by the engineer.
> 
> The upside is its easier and quicker while the downside is that the whole 'ambiance' of the room and the band members arranged in it, so as to give a perception of width, depth, and size of room, is lost. A lot of the big bands from 60-70's are very well recorded and albums like Sgt Peppers throw an almost holographic stage, but recordings like this are few and far between, when you look at all the stuff out there.
> 
> ...


I'm getting holographic staging on all the music I've listened to in the last two days. Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan, California Project, Dire Straits, for example. I do not listen often to new music. 


I had a friend listen to the system today. He has been following the progression of the build. The first words out of his mouth were,

"There is so much space around the instruments." 

I played few songs, his next comment was;

"I feel what the artist is trying to convey. I almost had a tear form in the corner of my eye." then he changed the subject.

It sounds Awesome, I think he said at least three times during our 20 min listening session. 

I here you talking about psychoacoustics coming into play. I have a photographic memory. My memory can also remember incredible details in music. 

I started out this quest, trying to recreate the sound I had back in my 1st SQ build back in the day. I finally succeeded, and then some. You see, back in the day, I had no idea what time alignment was. Nor did I understand a sound stage. Nor focus, or imaging.....it was all about the tonality.

So I have the tonality as well as all the new fun qualities for which to listen that I have learned over the last few months. 

I use to listen to music at 95 Db. I find that I'm enjoying listening to music at a lower volume level. 

Thank you again, Arun for teaching me about time alignment and for all your helpful tips and suggestions.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I here you talking about psychoacoustics coming into play. I have a photographic memory. My memory can also remember incredible details in music.



Photographic memory is a myth. Even in those people who have great recall (and thus great memory, but not photographic) miss minute details in those memories. 

While you may very well be able to remember some specific details in a given piece of music, remembering the actual sound seems highly questionable. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

pocket5s said:


> Photographic memory is a myth. Even in those people who have great recall (and thus great memory, but not photographic) miss minute details in those memories.
> 
> While you may very well be able to remember some specific details in a given piece of music, remembering the actual sound seems highly questionable.
> 
> ...


Question it all you want but it took me 5 years and 10 source units to get the sound back. All I can say is it was frustrating and exhausting.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Either way, photographic memory is different than your echoic memory 

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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Either way, photographic memory is different than your echoic memory
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I have both. I can describe the layout of your house. From the one time I was there when you tuned the TM.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I have both. I can describe the layout of your house. From the one time I was there when you tuned the TM.


That's not very hard to do lol. But if you say so. I'm going to ask steve at Syracuse tomorrow or Saturday in regards to the point of this thread

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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> That's not very hard to do lol. But if you say so. I'm going to ask steve at Syracuse tomorrow or Saturday in regards to the point of this thread
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I'm going to go to the next competition for sure. I have a IASCA score of 250 in my sights.


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## grinkeeper (Jun 26, 2015)

try some binaural recordings. There is a bunch of incredible 3D audio using this binaural recording method.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

grinkeeper said:


> try some binaural recordings. There is a bunch of incredible 3D audio using this binaural recording method.


Thanks for the tip. I put Cheskey Records Stripped - Macy Gray and Primal Scream - Jazz in the new Harmonic in my Amazon cart.


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for the tip. I put Cheskey Records Stripped - Macy Gray and Primal Scream - Jazz in the new Harmonic in my Amazon cart.


binaural recordings are for headphones


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Not really. Micheal Jackson recorded a lot of stuff using binaural. The mic for the MS-8 is binaural


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I'm getting holographic staging on all the music I've listened to in the last two days. Doobie Brothers, Steely Dan, California Project, Dire Straits, for example. I do not listen often to new music.





High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for the tip. I put Cheskey Records Stripped - Macy Gray and Primal Scream - Jazz in the new Harmonic in my Amazon cart.


Well one thing is established, you listen to well recorded music. Music that would throw a 3d stage that you describe. 

I feel like a bit of a wet blanket in your thread cause its basically me telling you what you should check, to really hear what you're describing, and you listening, but not really hearing and telling me don't worry it's fine. 

I went back and checked your install pics in the other thread, and the thing that suddenly struck me was how your speaker placement would give you WAY more *direct* sound than the typical car install. There isn't much between the speakers and your ears, and as long as the TA is right, it has the potential to sound very good and closer to source material than in a normal car, even with minimal eq. You're hearing enough direct sound, before the effects of the room kick in. 

But the effects of the room will eventually kick in and if it sounds great now, the _really scary_ thought is how good it would sound with the right tune. But that is your and the Time Machines journey. I wish you and the TM all the best at competitions. Good Luck.

Although hearing differences with different sources or cables is still psychoacoustics.

[edit] The one thing about this hobby is that there are no free lunches...almost always if you gain something it will be at the cost of something else.....does the extra direct sound come at the cost of some width?[edit]


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## backousis (Feb 22, 2014)

DC/Hertz said:


> Not really. Micheal Jackson recorded a lot of stuff using binaural. The mic for the MS-8 is binaural


Binaural recodrings create 3d image only at headphones.
playing binaural recordring from speakers destroyes the 3d image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording

the ms-8 have nothing to do with it.

it doen't record live music, it just measures the responce exaclty where your 
ears are located.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I guess you've never listened to them with surround sound. Try the 3D barbershop.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

backousis said:


> binaural recordings are for headphones


That is correct.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> Well one thing is established, you listen to well recorded music. Music that would throw a 3d stage that you describe.
> 
> I feel like a bit of a wet blanket in your thread cause its basically me telling you what you should check, to really hear what you're describing, and you listening, but not really hearing and telling me don't worry it's fine.
> 
> ...


I used an RTA real quickly, tonight. Just to see what it looks like. The response curve is not smooth for sure. There were some peaks and nulls. I played around with the analog EQ to try and get the curve smoothed out a bit. 
But I didn't have a lot of time. 20 Min or so.

The EQs are in the back so I had to keep running back and forth. I'll have my helper help me tune and after that, Ill take a photo and post it for you to see. 

On another note, last week, I had dropped off my Soundstream amps to be checked. I picked them up today. The guy that fixed them is in his 50's and has been working on audio equipment since he was 16. 

He sat in the center seat. After a 30-45 seconds, he said, " This is like a home system. I forgot where I was for a minute." He had a big smile on his face that didn't go away as he spent a few more minutes listening to Rebecca Pigeon, John Tesh, before someone showed up at his business and he had to rush back in. 

He said he had Magneplanars. For his reference. And he uses class A amps to power them. Several different brands of amps.

It made me chuckle a little.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> He sat in the center seat. After a 30-45 seconds, he said, " This is like a home system. I forgot where I was for a minute." He had a big smile on his face that didn't go away as he spent a few more minutes listening to Rebecca Pigeon, John Tesh, before someone showed up at his business and he had to rush back in.
> 
> He said he had Magneplanars. For his reference. And he uses class A amps to power them. Several different brands of amps.
> 
> It made me chuckle a little.


I don't understand why this makes you so happy. Most people that have no idea how far car audio has come or have no experience with an aftermarket car audio system would say the same thing even in a mediocre sounding car.

I truly feel the cool thing about car audio is the dynamics. If you have this it will impress most people.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> I truly feel the cool thing about car audio is the dynamics. If you have this it will impress most people.


Agree 100%. Imho the ultimate criteria to judge any car, should be how dynamic it is. Tuning is basically down to tweaking timing and response, and if one or both are even slightly out of whack, one will loose a ton of dynamics. If the car is highly dynamic, the timing and response will be on point. As will the other criteria like tonality, imaging etc. 

Rider: The recording has to be dynamic.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Niebur3 said:


> High Resolution Audio said:
> 
> 
> > He sat in the center seat. After a 30-45 seconds, he said, " This is like a home system. I forgot where I was for a minute." He had a big smile on his face that didn't go away as he spent a few more minutes listening to Rebecca Pigeon, John Tesh, before someone showed up at his business and he had to rush back in.
> ...





sqnut said:


> Niebur3 said:
> 
> 
> > I truly feel the cool thing about car audio is the dynamics. If you have this it will impress most people.
> ...


Would you guys describe what you mean by dynamic? Thank you.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> I don't understand why this makes you so happy. Most people that have no idea how far car audio has come or have no experience with an aftermarket car audio system would say the same thing even in a mediocre sounding car.
> 
> I truly feel the cool thing about car audio is the dynamics. If you have this it will impress most people.


I guess you can include me in your statement about people not knowing how far car audio has come. 

My God, this car even over computer speakers sounds awesome. And if one throws on a good set of headphones, it gets leagues better:

https://www.facebook.com/12vtom/posts/1272627632795554

The repair guy was telling me that everyone around here just wants to boost the lows and highs and care not about the mid range.

I guess you must live in one of the areas where there may be a lot more interest in car audio SQ. Around here, those types of cars are extremely rare, it seems.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Those of us who have been in some of the best sounding cars in the country have a bar set really high. Like the tune I had in my Ram the last couple months I had it. RTA took all the guess work out of fixing the train wreck caused by the "room". Both driver and passenger side were nearly identical twins, time alignment was a lot easier to dial in because of this, and I had a good tune someone else did by ear to compare it to. I don't expect the 2-way front in the Jeep to be what the 3-way front in the Ram was, but maybe I can come close especially since I won't be firing midranges up at the windshield with dash locations. I'm sure a lot of people will agree that the more you learn the less you know.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I guess you can include me in your statement about people not knowing how far car audio has come.
> 
> My God, this car even over computer speakers sounds awesome. And if one throws on a good set of headphones, it gets leagues better:
> 
> ...


I will never understand trying to listen to someone's car over the internet.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Lol

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> I will never understand trying to listen to someone's car over the internet.


If one cannot tell the quality level of sound of a recording played via internet, than that person has no critical listening skills.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah you are critical listening to your playback speakers using a cell phone recording.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Nothing like listening to a high resolution system over the internet with a $5 pair of earbuds:laugh:


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah you are critical listening to your playback speakers using a cell phone recording.


Last year, was able listen to a recording via internet of Ben Zimmermans BMW via a good set of headphones.

I said that the sound quality of his car was the best I had ever heard. And I have listened to hundreds.

As most of us know, Benny Z scored well at the finals.

I do not understand how others cannot discern?

If something sounds good, then it sounds good.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> If one cannot tell the quality level of sound of a recording played via internet, than that person has no critical listening skills.


This is supposed to be funny/sarcastic.....correct? Because if you are serious, then I will say that expert class system in that link you posted has a ****ty center (seems to move when the camera moves), no depth, no width, no dynamics and a very limited frequency response. 

Although, I just thought that it was due to the ****ty cell phone recording, the compressed video file I am watching and the ****ty laptop speakers I am listening to it on. 

But you are right, it's probably the system itself !


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Last year, was able listen to a recording via internet of Ben Zimmermans BMW via a good set of headphones.
> 
> I said that the sound quality of his car was the best I had ever heard. And I have listened to hundreds.
> 
> ...


I don't know about you, but my car sound a million times better than any system I've heard over the internet. 

I bet you go to a lot of live concerts too....at least via people's ****ty cell phone recordings. No difference than being there in person.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

So, for this challenge you guys should just each set your tune, make a video, and let the DIYMA community decide which tune sounds better. Why even bother having a live judge sit in it?


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Should be a Disclaimer at the end of posts that reads, "I'm full of ****"


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> This is supposed to be funny/sarcastic.....correct? Because if you are serious, then I will say that expert class system in that link you posted has a ****ty center (seems to move when the camera moves), no depth, no width, no dynamics and a very limited frequency response.
> 
> Although, I just thought that it was due to the ****ty cell phone recording, the compressed video file I am watching and the ****ty laptop speakers I am listening to it on.
> 
> But you are right, it's probably the system itself !


One has to take in account that when one moves the recording device, the Sound Quality/ Tonality is going to change. A recording will sound best when the microphone is positioned on axis with the tweeters. To me that is common knowledge. 

As one moves the microphone around, the tonality will change. 

In order to do critical listening one must use a quality set of head phones. 

If one infers that critical listening can be done with laptop speakers, then that person has no idea what tools are required to perform said critical listening.

Because it is very obvious that the sound quality from laptop speakers lacks the resolution needed to determine differences.

The fact that I had to post the above sentence shows lack of knowledge as to which tools are needed for said purpose.


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## EriCCirE (Apr 14, 2010)

:lurk::lurk::lurk::lurk:


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> One has to take in account that when one moves the recording device, the Sound Quality is going to change. A recording will sound best when the microphone is positioned on axis with the tweeters. To me that is common knowledge.
> 
> As one moves the microphone around, the tonality will change.
> 
> ...


There are no tools for said purpose. Said purpose doesn't exist (critical listening to an audio system over the internet). You have made up said purpose yourself. 

You just debunked this above when you said "A recording will sound best when the microphone is positioned on axis with the tweeters. To me that is common knowledge." Manipulating the recording microphone to be on axis with tweeters is altering the sound of the system from real life. In most cars, you sit at least somewhat off axis to the tweeters and this causes a change in frequency response. I'm sure I could take 5 different videos of my car system and depending on where the mic is placed, have it sound different all 5 times, none of which being how it really sounds in person because the seat in my car can't be moved in the same manner. 

You obviously can't understand the number of variables you are introducing and why critical listening over internet videos is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard.

Why even have car audio competitions at set locations anymore? Just submit your video and they can mail the trophy to the winners.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Arete said:


> Would you guys describe what you mean by dynamic? Thank you.


When we talk of audible Dynamic Range (DR), we are talking of the difference between the loudest and quietest sound that our ears can perceive. If you look at the Fletcher Munson curves, you will notice, that our ears are not equally sensitive across the audible frequency range. Hence, our DR will vary depending on the frequency we're hearing. Our ears are most sensitive in the 3-4khz range and the average adult is said to have a DR of about 120 db at 3khz. 

But that is hearing one frequency at a time, music is a combination of many different frequencies that we hear at the same time hence when we talk of music we add a third element that is average or RMS level. Now DR in recording means the difference between the loudest sound and the average or RMS level. So if a song has an average level of 80db and peaks of 95db then the recording has a DR of 15. Check out the DR Database to check how dynamic the music you listen to really is. 

By default, that means a dynamic recording will have a lower RMS and hence a quieter recording. At the top end one is limited both by the media and the danger of clipping, CD's for instance have a DR of 96db. So the only way to make a louder recording, is to bring the RMS level up and hence loose out on dynamic range. Most recording today are in the 4-6db DR range, music today is mostly consumed via ear buds and cans and people like it loud.

So what does a higher DR 'sound like'? 






This song has a DR of 15db and the album is very well recorded. If you have this album and a 2ch at home, sit in the sweet spot and crank it. Else download this song close your eyes and listen to it. Dynamics is the sense of ebb and flow of each note, the guitar strumming at the start, the drums that kick in around 0:50 etc, its the sense of high and low. On a slightly subjective note, dynamics are what gives the sound, it's punch, emotion and clarity. 

So now this DR is on the recording, and if you listen on a good 2ch you will get the full impact and feel as if you're hearing it live. All sounds are a combination of fundamentals and harmonics, where the harmonics are fractionally time delayed from the fundamental, and at a much lower amplitude. If either the timing or amplitude difference between the fundamental and harmonic as recorded, is disturbed the resulting sound will not sound natural and one will loose a ton of the dynamics on the recording.

The car is messing up the FR and our installs are messing with the timing. Now unless we get the timing and response in the car en pointe, we are not going to get the full sense of dynamics. Or put another way, a highly dynamic sounding car will have everything else in place.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

sqnut said:


> When we talk of audible Dynamic Range (DR), we are talking of the difference between the loudest and quietest sound that our ears can perceive. If you look at the Fletcher Munson curves, you will notice, that our ears are not equally sensitive across the audible frequency range. Hence, our DR will vary depending on the frequency we're hearing. Our ears are most sensitive in the 3-4khz range and the average adult is said to have a DR of about 120 db at 3khz.
> 
> But that is hearing one frequency at a time, music is a combination of many different frequencies that we hear at the same time hence when we talk of music we add a third element that is average or RMS level. Now DR in recording means the difference between the loudest sound and the average or RMS level. So if a song has an average level of 80db and peaks of 95db then the recording has a DR of 15. Check out the DR Database to check how dynamic the music you listen to really is.
> 
> ...



I agree with you with regards to recordings that have a higher Dynamic Range sounding better. I think that the silence is just as important as the noise. 

I temporarily lost my CD of Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms. It's one of my favorite CDs to listen to, especially the track "Why Worry".

I purchased the remastered version, because that seems to be the only version available now. 

They really screwed with the most incredible recorded and among the first fully digital (DDD) recordings. 

I have no idea what they did with the remaster ( they probably made the dynamic range smaller ) but it just isn't as enjoyable to listen to as the original.

Something was just missing, and I can't explain it but with this remaster, I really didn't feel like listening to the music......

Luckily, I found my copy. And I just listened to it again recently on the new upgraded system.


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## dsquared (Aug 10, 2016)

So is this gonna happen?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Almost forgot about this. I hope so. Should be a fun experiment

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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Update........there is no way that an Head unit DSP (with T/A), Separate Electronic crossover, and two analog EQ's are accurate enough to fine tune enough to compete with a system with an outboard DSP. 

Don't get me wrong, it still sounds great ( in my opinion ) however, it is lacking in pinpoint focus, imaging and placement, that is achievable with an outboard DSP. The knobs get one in the ball park, but not close enough to get the fine resolution that is necessary in order to compete successfully in either IASCA or MECA, or sound razor focused for everyday enjoyment. 

I ordered and received a Helix DSP PRO MK II with director and am in the installation process now. 

I like the fact that this DSP can be used with any head unit and that I am not restricted to using the Head unit/ DSP as a combination only as was such with the Alpine F#1.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Update........there is no way that an Head unit DSP (with T/A), Separate Electronic crossover, and two analog EQ's are accurate enough to fine tune enough to compete with a system with an outboard DSP.


Finally .


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Damn it.. I really wanted that 500 dollars

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## dsw1204 (Mar 23, 2015)

Does this mean the challenge is off? Bummer!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Update........there is no way that an Head unit DSP (with T/A), Separate Electronic crossover, and two analog EQ's are accurate enough to fine tune enough to compete with a system with an outboard DSP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What HU are you going to use? And does the source really matter when using a DSP like this...

I only ask because I have the same DSP combo but I am going to use the OEM BMW HU in the F30 and F10 so I wonder what impact the HU has in the end scenario 

I was looking at the Pioneer xdp-300r DAP to connect into the AUX of the Helix... 


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

Just wanted to remind you that i won 1st and 2nd in Syracuse with just my P99rs with DSP in head unit with T/A. Just saying.





High Resolution Audio said:


> Update........there is no way that an Head unit DSP (with T/A), Separate Electronic crossover, and two analog EQ's are accurate enough to fine tune enough to compete with a system with an outboard DSP.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it still sounds great ( in my opinion ) however, it is lacking in pinpoint focus, imaging and placement, that is achievable with an outboard DSP. The knobs get one in the ball park, but not close enough to get the fine resolution that is necessary in order to compete successfully in either IASCA or MECA, or sound razor focused for everyday enjoyment.
> 
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Yeah I just tuned the chevy Cruze with a p99 and it came out sounding great. 

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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Damn it.. I really wanted that 500 dollars
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk



I still might hire you to tune the system. So $50 x 8 drivers = $400 

That's pretty close........


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Where did you come up with that price? 

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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I thought I remembered you saying something like that recently too Nick in some conversation...something about $50 a speaker. I think you may have been joking with the guy though. He probably had one of those 18 speaker setups 

Gerald- Good to see you coming to the darkside and grabbing an uber capable dsp unit. That should reap some good rewards when used effectively on your system.



Cheers,

Steve


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> I thought I remembered you saying something like that recently too Nick in some conversation...something about $50 a speaker. I think you may have been joking with the guy though. He probably had one of those 18 speaker setups
> 
> Gerald- Good to see you coming to the darkside and grabbing an uber capable dsp unit. That should reap some good rewards when used effectively on your system.
> 
> ...


I use 50 per speaker as an estimate. Its different for every car. Ive been trying to find ways to get more accurate estimates for installs and tunes without seeing the car. Truth is, eithout seeing anything my time on the job can triple due to certain situations. For tuning, ive been thinking of just charging by time, but I hate making things easy on myself lol. 

Best example of why its just an estimate... If someone comes to me for a tune and the install isn't all that great, there's wires everywhere, a usb cable isn't run already, and there's noise and other issues with the system, it all of a sudden becomes more than a tuning job. You would be surprised how often this happens. Hell, when Ian came to NY his 12v to 5v converter died and we stent 2 hours in the rain just trying to fix it. He was there for something like a few hours and we never even turned on the laptop, which sucked because I was excited to play with the mini 8x12. 

Or another common request that isnt usually made until I'm almost done tuning... "Oh can you also do a tune for the passanger seat, and 2 others for another source and each seat". That haooens more times than none and of they truly want to do that, it would theoretically quadruple my time in the car.

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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Heh, yeh - I've had similar "almost done" requests... "but can't you just take all the settings and reverse them for the pass seat?" Ummmm...no.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

benny z said:


> Heh, yeh - I've had similar "almost done" requests... "but can't you just take all the settings and reverse them for the pass seat?" Ummmm...no.


Its almost as fast to just do a quick retune than to write down everything and reverse it lol. I wish there was a feature in the helix to just reverse left and right

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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

I mean you can take pictures...

But still, it won't be correct. May get you close, but it's not quite that easy unless the car is absolutely symmetrical, which isn't the case most of the time (gauge cluster hump, etc). The speakers would have to be aimed the same also. Not always the case with on axis pillars.

Then there are cars like the new corvette where the left side door card is completely different than the right, and the speakers aren't even near the same location heh. We did one of those locally and the owner *did* want a pass seat tune. And then a Mini owner with pillars who wanted a pass seat and "two seat" (heh) tune in addition to his primary tune.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

SkizeR said:


> Hell, when Ian came to NY his 12v to 5v converter died and we stent 2 hours in the rain just trying to fix it. He was there for something like a few hours and we never even turned on the laptop, which sucked because I was excited to play with the mini 8x12.


Yeah, that sucked. 3 years with no problems, drive 5+ hours to NY and it decides to quit on me. I was looking forward to someone knowing what they are doing tuning it as well. Oh well, hopefully if I am up that way again we can give it another shot.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Its almost as fast to just do a quick retune than to write down everything and reverse it lol. I wish there was a feature in the helix to just reverse left and right
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk



Just switch left and right inputs in the I/O matrix window and save as a different preset.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Also maybe 
Finally accepted that you tube videos are not the best way to listen to good car sound systems.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Alrojoca said:


> Also maybe
> Finally accepted that you tube videos are not the best way to listen to good car sound systems.


Let us not jump the gun here, I mean he just accepted the DSP concept! Love you Gerald!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ErinH said:


> Just switch left and right inputs in the I/O matrix window and save as a different preset.


That just mixes left and right signal. 

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> That just mixes left and right signal.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


do you really think it matters?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Elektra said:


> What HU are you going to use? And does the source really matter when using a DSP like this...
> 
> I only ask because I have the same DSP combo but I am going to use the OEM BMW HU in the F30 and F10 so I wonder what impact the HU has in the end scenario
> 
> ...


As far as head units go, I believe they are even more important than the speakers. 

I had the Boston Pro Series in my 1992 Nissan 240SX with a Pioneer Super Tuner III CD head unit and changer. I replaced the Pioneer with the Alpine 7894 and the whole system totally came to life. The sound quality increased dramatically (10 fold ). I was blown away by that single change. Floored to say the least. That's when I became a believer that source units are the most important part of a sound system. 

( I thought it was speakers before this epiphany.) 

As far as source unit, I have 3 Choices:

Alpine 9835

Alpine 7909 S.E.

Clarion HX-D2 ( DRZ 9255) (leaning towards)


My knowledge based on past experience, is that a factory source unit can not sound as good as an aftermarket source unit. But with today's technology maybe that has changed, as factory units keep getting better? I doubt it, though. 

I have not yet tested the input circuitry on the Helix, as I just got it playing music. But I'm hoping that it will take the signal from the Oppo Blu Ray Player and reproduce it in high fidelity. 

The Alpine F#1 Status input circuit gave more depth compared with the input circuits of all the head units I have tried so far. I'm hoping the Helix will do the same.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

foreman said:


> Just wanted to remind you that i won 1st and 2nd in Syracuse with just my P99rs with DSP in head unit with T/A. Just saying.


The P-99 has an incredible built in DSP with many features that can help tune a system to get fantastic sound. 

But I do not believe the P-99 has the amount of tuning capabilities that the Helix does. 

Phase of drivers can be aligned in small increments for example. Each driver has 31 bands of eq, and the Time alignment has increments to the nearest hundredth of a milisecond. More flexibility with crossover frequencies as well as types of slopes (crossover design ), and the fine tuning features go on.

This unit is a powerful piece of tuning equipment. 



The benefit of the p-99 is that it has a very good built in Source and DSP all in one unit. 

In my opinion, all in one units always sacrifice something. A great unit......but it's built in DSP is not as quite as powerful with less flexibility with regards to the ultimate in fine tuning.


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## MB2008LTZ (Oct 13, 2012)

AHHH ..... YAWN...Stretch....Just woke up from a nap....
who cares...if it sounds good to you... play it! Like it! Enjoy It!


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## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> So, if you win, you get a dsp and $500 and if he wins he only gets $500. Seems fair. Either way, my money is on both of you bickering back and forth like an old married couple over the details until eventually one or both of you makes an excuse and backs out. Why don't you two just get together and beat each other off, then at least you'll have accomplished something.


Damn Nastradamus.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> As far as head units go, I believe they are even more important than the speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well ... I have the Sony but installing it may be a challenge hence the thought process of a DAP that can connect directly into the Helix so that becomes the "HU" the OEM HU is basically to keep the functions of the car and tuner - I hardly use CD player in a car in any case...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MitchWolos (Aug 4, 2015)

This thread just popped up in a search for me. Did it happen? 
Also, After skimming. Is it true that HRA thinks a high-end system needs little equalization?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MitchWolos said:


> This thread just popped up in a search for me. Did it happen?
> Also, After skimming. Is it true that HRA thinks a high-end system needs little equalization?


no, but he did come to me to tune it a few months ago where he went up something like 8 points again


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## MitchWolos (Aug 4, 2015)

Sounds like winning to me


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Nick and I never did a DSP challenge on my Van's stereo system however we both did compete at SVR 2019 in the top 30 ( which ended up being top 40 )

Nick entered his vehicle that he tuned and I entered my van that I tuned. 

Full disclosure Ryan ( Truthunter ) put a microphone on my system and added about 8 or so Parametric EQ adjustments to tame some peaks. But the Levels, TA settings, crossover points and slopes, and Graphic EQ was all set by me. 

The results were Nick finished in 37th place and my Van finished in 3rd place and I only had one midbass playing for 1/2 the Judges as an amp went into protect mode, but I didn't realize it till much later.

With that being said, I will offer my tuning services to Nick's customers for the right price of course. ( just kidding )

P.S. The only reason I posted this is because I made a comment about my experience with directional RCA cables on another forum and and once again I got attacked for sharing my findings. We will let the competition scores speak for themselves.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Correlation does not equal causation.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Lol. I'm ready for any challenge when you are. If I remember correctly, you backed out of the money YOU wanted to put up.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## dsquared (Aug 10, 2016)

So what happened Nick ? Did your battery die ?.? Damien works for you and he topped ya .. Just wondering


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

The van has so many advantages over a normal car... if you didn’t win against a normal car it isn’t worth bragging about....

Honestly it’s like taking candy from a child... I mean you can do so much with speaker sizes and placement that you simply can’t do in a normal car....

I mean you have zero restrictions that a normal car has... you should have cleaned up properly... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Elektra said:


> The van has so many advantages over a normal car... if you didn’t win against a normal car it isn’t worth bragging about....
> 
> Honestly it’s like taking candy from a child... I mean you can do so much with speaker sizes and placement that you simply can’t do in a normal car....
> 
> ...


So you are saying that the room dictates the sound? Sounds like dumb logic to me. 

That's like saying you can purchase multiple brands of speakers, amps, source unit, wires and grab random sets of each placing them in the same exact room and they will all sound the same, because of the room.

Well, I'm glad that you straightened me out on that one. I went to THE HOME ENTERTAINMENT SHOW in Newport Beach California which was held a a huge hotel.

I went into room after room which all pretty much had the same basic layout and dimensions listening to different brands of speakers and amplifiers, and wiring, etc. 

I was under the impression that every room sounded different. But now because of your comment, I realize that it was all just in my head, which happens to be up my ass, according to Nick.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Elektra said:
> 
> 
> > The van has so many advantages over a normal car... if you didn’t win against a normal car it isn’t worth bragging about....
> ...


Wait, what? Are you saying that the room does NOT have a huge impact on the sound?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rayray881 said:


> Wait, what? Are you saying that the room does NOT have a huge impact on the sound?


Looks like your meeting gerald for the first time. Buckle up..

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> rayray881 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, what? Are you saying that the room does NOT have a huge impact on the sound?
> ...


Lap belt or five point harness?


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

In 2016 Gerald was going on about how you didn't need DSP. In 2017 he admitted that you did. Figured it would have ended there. 

Comparing two completely different vehicles, doesn't really mean anything. 

New challenge with identical cars?


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So you are saying that the room dictates the sound? Sounds like dumb logic to me.


Maybe dumb by your logic but the room can make more of a difference than the speakers. I've heard $20,000 JBL M2 studio reference monitors, some of the most accurate speakers ever made, in multiple rooms and the worst room, which was untreated and "echoey", made the speakers sound pretty poor. Same applies to a car, which is a horrible "room" for audio.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

truckerfte said:


> Comparing two completely different vehicles, doesn't really mean anything.
> 
> New challenge with identical cars?


 This. like the 24 hrs of Lemons. They can do the 24 days. lol we can do a donation based thing with a set limit for both competitors...


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

rayray881 said:


> Lap belt or five point harness?


you're gonna want the 5 point if this gets rolling again!


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

dgage said:


> Maybe dumb by your logic but the room can make more of a difference than the speakers. I've heard $20,000 JBL M2 studio reference monitors, some of the most accurate speakers ever made, in multiple rooms and the worst room, which was untreated and "echoey", made the speakers sound pretty poor. Same applies to a car, which is a horrible "room" for audio.


You've changed my mind. The only reason my van outscored nicks regular car was because the van is a better "room" than a regular car. 

All the components that went into putting the system together have no effect on the outcome. 

I could have used Jensen Speakers, Boss amplifiers, any old RCA cable, any source unit and any DSP and with the proper tuning my system would always place first in competitions because where the system is placed.

Makes sense. I guess my careful selection of every component in the system was a giant waste of time.

Anyone can score high at car audio competitions just by using a Stepvan as a platform. I get it, now. I feel so foolish.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> dgage said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe dumb by your logic but the room can make more of a difference than the speakers. I've heard $20,000 JBL M2 studio reference monitors, some of the most accurate speakers ever made, in multiple rooms and the worst room, which was untreated and "echoey", made the speakers sound pretty poor. Same applies to a car, which is a horrible "room" for audio.
> ...


This entire post is a logical fallacy. I know where this leads so I’m out. Logic and facts are not for everyone.


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

RRizz said:


> This. like the 24 hrs of Lemons. They can do the 24 days. lol we can do a donation based thing with a set limit for both competitors...


I thought about doing a basic build in one of the cars I've got sitting around. Then running it around and let some of the well known tuners have their way with it. Save the tunes, take it someplace like OKC where there are a lot of good ears, and see who did it best.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

rayray881 said:


> This entire post is a logical fallacy. I know where this leads so I’m out. Logic and facts are not for everyone.


Exactly. Just a bunch of straw man nonsense.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

rayray881 said:


> Wait, what? Are you saying that the room does NOT have a huge impact on the sound?




I am confused.... elaborate on what you think I said... as I didn’t say room does not impact sound..

In fact I think I am implying room does impact sound... maybe I worded it badly? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

High Resolution Audio said:


> So you are saying that the room dictates the sound? Sounds like dumb logic to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Gerald I am saying with the volume and space you have at your disposal you can sort out issues others can’t sort out as effectively as you can...

I mean - if you look at midbass and sub bass and midrange for example - in a typical car we traditionally use a 6.5” midbass driver it has to be IB in a door and your limited to the frequency response and the enclosure etc... whereas if you have the space you can use a 8” or 10” in a correctly sized enclosure so your frequency response is so much better ...

Same goes for the subs you can put multiple 18” subs in correctly sized enclosures get the bass response to work better in a much larger cabin space same goes for mids you could use 4.5” mids with 2lt enclosures easily and your not limited to space for the install...

You have advantages that if you used a traditionally sized sedan or hatch you would not do as well...

I don’t know your setup - maybe you should share it with us for those who does not know your truck....

But I do know that over here there was a similar type vehicle that had a setup that was not achievable in a sedan or hatch and he was impossible to beat for a very long time ... I mean the guy removed all the rear seating for amps and 4 x 15” subs and rears that looked more like a home theater setup rather than a car audio setup...

If you have the canvas and the correct equipment and a relatively decent knowledge of tuning and setup you should be hard to beat - you came 3rd (not bad) but in a professionals hands that truck should have taken it by 20 points easily... if not more...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Elektra said:


> rayray881 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait, what? Are you saying that the room does NOT have a huge impact on the sound?
> ...


It was a question for Gerald.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Elektra said:


> Gerald I am saying with the volume and space you have at your disposal you can sort out issues others can’t sort out as effectively as you can...
> 
> I mean - if you look at midbass and sub bass and midrange for example - in a typical car we traditionally use a 6.5” midbass driver it has to be IB in a door and your limited to the frequency response and the enclosure etc... whereas if you have the space you can use a 8” or 10” in a correctly sized enclosure so your frequency response is so much better ...
> 
> ...


With regards to being limited to 6.5" in the doors, lots of vehicles that compete have 10"s in the kicks. 

With regards to your comment about multiple 18" subwoofers being an advantage. 

Multiple subs are harder to tune and almost impossible to time align properly causing phasing and cancellation issues as well as masking midrange and high end clarity. 

I started out with two 15" subs, two 12" subs, and two 10" drivers. 

Then ended up with two 15"s and two 10".

Then shifted to one 18" sub and two 10s. 

Now I'm just running the two 10s. The fewer drivers one has in a system the easier it is to get coherency and make the system disappear and get out of the way of the music.

With regards to your comment about getting better frequency response, getting a smooth frequency response curve is very important, I agree.

However, what is far more important than smooth linear Frequency Response is Transient Response. 

Transient Response is what makes or breaks a system. Having larger drivers/ larger airspace may sound like an advantage, but if the Transient response is sub-par than one is not going to get a concise, precise, cohesive, sound.

The ability of the a system to accurately control driver movement and the ability of the driver design to allow for precise electro-magnetic control of said driver with as little distortion as possible is paramount.

To my knowledge, that topic had rarely been discussed on this forum, and is most important when trying to create a system that accurately reproduces sound. 

As far as sharing my build, you can click on my signature line at the bottom of any one of my posts including this post and it will link you to by build log.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...58-1990-gmc-ps6500-build-log-restoration.html


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rayray881 said:


> It was a question for Gerald.


Room has an impact on sound, yes. We all have to tune for the room that the system is housed. 

But my point is that just because the room is perfectly sized and treated does not automatically mean it is going to sound better than another room that is sized differently and treated differently.

Let's for example take the room out of the equation by making it constant.

Say, for example, someone builds a dedicated listening space designed and built purposely using dimensions and with a listening location specifically chosen for music reproduction that has the least amount of reflections.

Once the room is corrected, choosing and installing different gear at different price points with different electronics and different wiring choices is going to give different sound. 

Bookshelf speakers, vs Electrostatics, vs tower speakers, using different electronics such as tube amplification vs solid state, using different wiring such as silver vs copper etc is all going to have an effect due to varying capacitence, resistance and impedance etc.. Digital vs Analog source units. The type of circuitry found said electronics.

My point here is that just because one has a "better" or ideal room, does not automatically equate to better sound. Even with proper tuning for that specific room.

Gear selection plays a more important roll than most give credit.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Elektra said:


> ...that truck should have taken it by 20 points easily... if not more...



He beat my car by almost a point and a half. And my car was not on point that show.

Get beat by a center-seat vehicle like 3,000x the physical size as mine? By a point? No contest. Take that win any day.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

High Resolution Audio said:


> .... Let's for example take the room out of the equation by making it constant. ....


But...



High Resolution Audio said:


> .... there is way less things for the sound to bounce off in my cab. Less reflections in my cab than most vehicles.
> 
> No center console, no glove box, no dash board, less angles, less reflective surfaces, ( the glass surfaces that I have are positioned out of the main radiation pattern of mid and high frequencies ).
> 
> There is no space behind occupants ( basically a particleboard wall which will be covered in carpet at some point ). I think that this gives a tremendous advantage in reducing reflected sounds. ....


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Grinder said:


> High Resolution Audio said:
> 
> 
> > .... Let's for example take the room out of the equation by making it constant. ....
> ...


Lmao! Awaiting more fallacies and cognitive dissonance.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

rayray881 said:


> Lmao! Awaiting more fallacies and cognitive dissonance.


Over the last few years, I have learned quite a bit. One of them being that the rear wall being so close to the listening position is actually is a disadvantage.

The rear wall acts as a bass trap. Having more air space behind the listening position would be ideal. 

I was considering moving the wall back now that the van is no longer used for electrical work, however, this would be a massive undertaking. The energy needed to complete this project may be more than I'm willing to expend. 

With regards to having the drivers aimed at the listening position with nothing but air in between IS an advantage over a regular car with regards to achieving a truer to life sound, however, in vehicle sound quality competitions, there is not much emphasis or scoring categories with regards to realism, believability, musicality, nor "true to life" sound. 

Some of the highest scoring vehicles as SQ competitions use sound reflected off the windshield. 

With regards to taming reflections, I have to admit that the very large square footage of glass in my van is a disadvantage as opposed to a smaller vehicle. 

Fortunately, I was able to treat those large reflective surfaces with sound absorbing materials and use velvet curtains along the sides. 

I now listen to music with the doors wide open at my shop.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

yawn, stick a fork in it


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

benny z said:


> He beat my car by almost a point and a half. And my car was not on point that show.
> 
> Get beat by a center-seat vehicle like 3,000x the physical size as mine? By a point? No contest. Take that win any day.


Who told you that size matters? 

3000x the physical size? The rear of the van which has nothing but shelves and dead space comes into play with regards to having an advantage? And the ground clearance affects sound, how??? lol

If one takes into account the volume of the listening chamber of both vehicles, I'm sure you will find that there is not that much of a difference in cubic feet. 

I don't understand how more cubic feet = higher score at Car Audio sound competitions? Because scores are based on sound stage in relation to physical boundaries of said vehicle.

With regards to your vehicle not being on point, neither was mine at that competition. One midbass was not playing for some of my judging during that event. 

Having a center seat vehicle that is tuned properly should equal higher scores at vehicle audio SQ competitions, however, the way the scoring is incorrectly done today that will not happen.

With regards to imaging positions, for example, a center seat vehicle should be given perfect scores, but mine doesn't and there is no explanation as to why it doesn't or what can be done to improve the imaging, even though the chart the judges uses for placement on the score sheets indicates perfect imaging locations.

So what do scores really mean at these SQ competitions?


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Scores at a competition mean judges preferred a particular stereo based on the given criteria that given day. Nothing more nothing less.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Gerald do you have, or can point me to research that supports the theory that directional cabling has a benefit in audio reproduction? I could only find heavily biased data from manufacturers who are basically charging a premium to add "arrows" on the cabling.

I reached out to one of these so called premium cable suppliers and they were reluctant to send a test data sheet for a cable I wanted to purchase. The explained that their test data was proprietary??? So they could not prove that their product was better other than just saying it is better.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Locomotive Tech said:


> Gerald do you have, or can point me to research that supports the theory that directional cabling has a benefit in audio reproduction? I could only find heavily biased data from manufacturers who are basically charging a premium to add "arrows" on the cabling.
> 
> I reached out to one of these so called premium cable suppliers and they were reluctant to send a test data sheet for a cable I wanted to purchase. The explained that their test data was proprietary??? So they could not prove that their product was better other than just saying it is better.


Here is a link from Audioquest with regards to the theory behind directional cabling. It explains the theory:

https://www.audioquest.com/theory-education/article/83-directionality-its-all-about-noise

I do not understand how it works and why it works myself, but I did test with my own ears after installing two new RCA cables on my system not realizing they were directional. 

I had one forwards and one backwards. My brain said " What difference could it possibly make.......it's just copper and it carries a signal."

My ears said with regards to the reversed one : "This sounds grainy as if bits and pieces of music are missing as if the sound is being filtered through a screen." 

There are directional SQ fuses that are suppose to make a difference to imaging characteristics ( placing and focus ), and realism. They have three levels or improvements from the original fuse. Black, Blue and the brand new Orange.
The new ones that just came out cost $150 a piece. I'm going to be a guinea pig and try a couple out on my system. They offer a money back guarantee, which is comforting. 

Here is a link to the fuse websight:

https://www.synergisticresearch.com/fuses/black/


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Wow... Are we still talking about car audio?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Sq fuses.....


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Hmm, these fuses have a 30-day money back guarantee - but require 200-300 hours of "burn-in" time before they really do their thing... You would really have to spend a lot of time in your car in order to truly experience the full effect before the money-back warranty is up! 

Just sayin...


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> Wow... Are we still talking about car audio?


I use Audioquest directional RCA cables on my vehicle's audio system.......so yes. 

I do not see a reason why anyone with a car audio system that wants to compete or just get the best possible SQ out of their system would not use better products.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Hmm, these fuses have a 30-day money back guarantee - but require 200-300 hours of "burn-in" time before they really do their thing... You would really have to spend a lot of time in your car in order to truly experience the full effect before the money-back warranty is up!
> 
> Just sayin...



Or one could just turn the system on with a power supply connected to the battery and just let it play constantly. That is the proper way to burn in components anyway.

In my experience with my Processor, OPAMP in processor, and new head unit, about 5 hours of listening to constant music in all three instances yielded the sound changing and opening up. 

My normal is extensive listening sessions, so I was fortunate to experience the actual sound changing during the burn-in of these products.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Of course people want to use the best gear - but the real question is "are these products *really* any "better"" - or are they just snake oil? Confirmation bias is a real thing and you have to wonder how much of that is involved with these types of items (directional cables, "special" fuses, etc)...

Some of the wording on the fuse web site just seems a little far-fetched...


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Of course people want to use the best gear - but the real question is "are these products *really* any "better"" - or are they just snake oil? Confirmation bias is a real thing and you have to wonder how much of that is involved with these types of items (directional cables, "special" fuses, etc)...
> 
> Some of the wording on the fuse web site just seems a little far-fetched...


There are two crowds. The ones that have tested and heard improvements. 

And the other crowd that hasn't. 

And both argue back and forth. 

I would say that I personally went from a skeptic to a believer by experimenting.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

Don't forget about the law of diminishing returns. Is it worth paying 250x the price of a normal component in order to get 1/2% of added performance?


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

So what is the manufacturer's recommendation on which way to connect the RCA's? does the arrow point to the source device or the next component in line....DSP, amp etc?


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

I am only asking cause, this would determine which end the cable shield is grounded on. But here is what you should verify;

for simplicity I will describe just a HU to amp config.

If the RCA cable between the HU and amp is grounded at both ends and the grounding potential between the HU and the amp is different, this difference in potential will cause current to flow from the highest potential end to the lowest potential end. In this case, congratulations! you made an antenna.

But, what most don't consider is that most amplifiers have grounded shields on the rca connectors. This is a cause of confusion for me for quite some time. 

Sometimes simply inverting RCA cables can correct issues only based on the ground potential.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Did Gerald give up $500? Did not read.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Locomotive Tech said:


> So what is the manufacturer's recommendation on which way to connect the RCA's? does the arrow point to the source device or the next component in line....DSP, amp etc?


The arrow indicates the signal path direction. 

From your question, I gather that you might be confused about the second factor that makes cables directional.

The first factor is grounding one end of the cable to help with noise reduction.

But it seems like most people are unaware that the conductivity of a wire can vary due to the direction a copper wire is pulled through a series of dies in the excursion process. 

On some high end cables, the direction that the cable is pulled through the dies also has an effect the ability of said cable to pass a signal.

I've posted a link on thread #265 which explains the theory behind this phenomenon, but I'll include it here on this thread below so you can click on it and read it first hand. 

Here is the link again: https://www.audioquest.com/theory-education/article/83-directionality-its-all-about-noise

Here is the article copied and pasted:


If you’ve ever wondered about the arrows on AudioQuest cables, read any of our educational materials, or merely followed any of the online chatter regarding our products, perhaps you’ve wondered what this “directionality” thing is all about.

There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax, negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached to ground at only one end, thus defining the cable’s directionality. Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there, going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to ground.

Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete. While we’ve always been keenly aware that directionality plays a significant role in the overall sound of any hi-fi system, we couldn’t completely explain it. This was okay: We trust our own ears and encourage listeners to do the same. The test is easy enough: Simply listen, then reverse the direction of the cable, and listen again.

In one direction, music will sound relatively flat and a little grainy, as though being forced through a screen door. In the opposite direction, the obstruction is removed and music will be communicated with a natural ease, depth, and an open invitation to pleasure. When presented with a cable whose conductors have been controlled for the correct low-noise directionality, a listener feels a sense of comfort and relief: Ahh…Music!



But the definitive empirical evidence of directionality demands seeking a scientific explanation. What is the technical explanation for directionality?

In order to fabricate copper or silver into a strand or conductor, it must first be cast and then drawn through a die—a process that inevitably creates a directional, chevron-like pattern in the conductor’s internal grain structure and a non-symmetrical overlay of grains at the conductor’s surface.

While most are either unaware of conductor directionality or have chosen to ignore it, we have learned to use conductor directionality to our advantage.

A conductor’s asymmetrical surface structure causes a directional difference in impedance at noise frequencies and very high interference frequencies. Due to skin-effect, such high-frequency energy travels almost exclusively on the surface of a conductor, giving significance to the directional difference in impedance at these frequencies. Because all energy will always take the path of least resistance, when a cable is oriented so that the high-frequency noise—whether from a computer, radio station, cell tower, etc.—is “directed” to ground, or to the end of the cable attached to less vulnerable equipment, the dynamic intermodulation and associated ringing generated in the active electronics will be greatly reduced.

Our efforts toward the proper dissipation of noise are not limited to our analog and digital cables, but extend to other AudioQuest products, as well—most recently evidenced in our Niagara 1000 and 7000 Low-Z Power Noise-Dissipation Systems, in which every single link in the conducting path has been properly controlled for low-noise directionality.

As always, the proof is in the listening.

The unpleasant, strained sound that occurs when conductors have the wrong orientation is the result of noise entering and causing misbehavior and intermodulation in an active circuit. The more relaxed, full-bodied sound of correctly oriented conductors is the product of less high-frequency interference—conductor directionality fully acknowledged and put to its best use!

Ahh…Music!


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> The arrow indicates the signal path direction.
> 
> From your question, I gather that you might be confused about the second factor that makes cables directional.
> 
> ...



Actually the PROOF would be in a graph of test measurements that clearly shows that any wire or cable being tested has a DIFFERENT frequency response when installed and used in one direction vs the other.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't doubt Gerald is hearing a difference in his rca cables. I swear I heard a SLIGHT difference between my Stinger 2000 and 4000 series cables. How the amps and processor were laid out depended on which cables got used because of the length (the 4000's were .5 meter and 2000's 1 meter). At the end of the day that slight difference could have just been all in my head. If there was any it wasn't enough to touch the tune. In the house I also heard a HUGE difference between two different rca cables. One of them just sounded like ****. Chances were great of that 20 y/o cable being damaged so it went in the trash.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

seafish said:


> Actually the PROOF would be in a graph of test measurements that clearly shows that any wire or cable being tested has a DIFFERENT frequency response when installed and used in one direction vs the other.


Stinger has their own propaganda response graphs for some of their cables. Something about certain frequencies being boosted with them. Wonder how many actually believe that crap?


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> Actually the PROOF would be in a graph of test measurements that clearly shows that any wire or cable being tested has a DIFFERENT frequency response when installed and used in one direction vs the other.


Frequency response measurements are not an accurate indication on how something will sound.

A single measurement microphone of an overall RTA will not paint a perfect picture of how something will sound. Many different vehicles may tune to the same exact RTA curve are not going to sound the same.

One can play a constant test tone and an intermittent test tone and get the same Frequency measurements, but will not sound the same.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'm probably in the minority here but I don't doubt Gerald is hearing a difference in his rca cables. I swear I heard a SLIGHT difference between my Stinger 2000 and 4000 series cables. How the amps and processor were laid out depended on which cables got used because of the length (the 4000's were .5 meter and 2000's 1 meter). At the end of the day that slight difference could have just been all in my head. If there was any it wasn't enough to touch the tune. In the house I also heard a HUGE difference between two different rca cables. One of them just sounded like ****. Chances were great of that 20 y/o cable being damaged so it went in the trash.


Thanks for sharing your experience. Here is some food for thought. If huge differences can be heard in the house with an RCA cable swap, that in itself indicates that RCA cables can alter sound. 

So take those very same house cables and try the same experiment in the car.

It would stand to reason that if those very same cables made a difference on one system that they would make a difference on another. 

Could it be that a car audio system is not quite as revealing as a home system? And that could be the determining factor as to why cable swaps in cars are not as perceptible?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Frequency response measurements are not an accurate indication on how something will sound.
> 
> A single measurement microphone of an overall RTA will not paint a perfect picture of how something will sound. Many different vehicles may tune to the same exact RTA curve are not going to sound the same.
> 
> One can play a constant test tone and an intermittent test tone and get the same Frequency measurements, but will not sound the same.



Fair enough ... an even better would be to run ANY set of cables through Ethan Winer's ingenious "null" testing machine.

I am pretty sure that you have been directed to this video before, but if not, it is very much worth a look before committing to the kind of cable ad logic you and they are actively promoting with subjective ONLY "well you have to hear it to believe it" testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt3kANA3Q


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/178/Unfalsifiability



> Unfalsifiability
> (also known as: untestability)
> 
> Description: Confidently asserting that a theory or hypothesis is true or false even though the theory or hypothesis cannot possibly be contradicted by an observation or the outcome of any physical experiment, usually without strong evidence or good reasons.
> ...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience. Here is some food for thought. If huge differences can be heard in the house with an RCA cable swap, that in itself indicates that RCA cables can alter sound.
> 
> So take those very same house cables and try the same experiment in the car.
> 
> ...


I forgot to mention that I don't recall the bad sounding cable (or one of its identical siblings) ever sounding harsh like it did right before I threw it away. 99.9% sure it was just damaged from not being treated as nicely as it should have over the past two decades. And it had been stored and moved around for the past 15 years. Was an overpriced Acoustic Research cable from Best Buy. To be honest, I don't put much thought into RCA cables as long as they're well made. The Knukonceptz cables in my truck are of good quality. Replaced all the old Stinger cables for the sake of reliability after one of the Y-splitters shorted on me from age and never thought the ends on the Stinger cables were worth a damn. As long as there's nothing wrong with a well made rca cable there shouldn't be enough of a difference in sound to really tell it apart from several other well made cables in a blind test.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I can accept that terrible RCAs to great RCAs could sound different... Directional? I don't think the signal knows which way the arrow is painted on the outside of the sheathing. 

SQ fuses? Hilarious!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Can we stop talking about nonsense and come up with something so I can take your damn money already? I'd really like to buy my sister her first car, so this could help 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Can we stop talking about nonsense and come up with something so I can take your damn money already? I'd really like to buy my sister her first car, so this could help
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

seafish said:


> Fair enough ... an even better would be to run ANY set of cables through Ethan Winer's ingenious "null" testing machine.
> 
> I am pretty sure that you have been directed to this video before, but if not, it is very much worth a look before committing to the kind of cable ad logic you and they are actively promoting with subjective ONLY "well you have to hear it to believe it" testing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt3kANA3Q


Thanks for posting a link to this Null testing machine video. I started watching it and I already found an important piece of information that Nathan states at the 7:46 minute mark.

He basically states that if the signal is out of phase even by .005 of a degree the null is limited to 80DB or less.

This fact in itself puts such a strong importance on phase being correct in order to get accurate results. 

So I would like to raise the issue that just the mere fact of swapping a cable will have some sort of an effect on phase. That in itself will change the sound not even taking into account overall tonality. 

It has been my experience that an electrical signal passing through a circuit, or wire adds latency which varies dependent upon the number of devices in said circuit, or the length of said wire.

This latency will have a direct effect on phase, thus a direct effect on sound.

Continuing to watch the video, I have come the conclusion that all of his statements are solely based on frequency response measurements being the sole factor in determining his conclusions. It was my understanding that we may have agreed that frequency response measurements might not be a good indication of how something sounds.

Another issue that i have with his testing procedure is that it is my belief that all parts in a signal chain have an effect on the way a system will sound.

I believe that it's withing the realm of possibilities that his machine in fact nullifies the differences between cables. 

Both Richard Clark and Ethan Winer's test took the signal and passed it through a filter. 

It is also within the realm of possibilities that the there is no difference between the filtered sound.

Also, with regards to Ethan's test, he has to adjust a knob to in fact get this "nulled" signal. The fact that he needs to incorporate an adjustable knob in this testing rig shows that there is in fact differences.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

So it's true that the way Cooper is pulled (formed) can have an noticable effect on the structural integrity of a cable. They consider this when making high strength cables for building, bridges, etc. 

So one could be LED TO BELIEVE that the small difference in resistance could have an effect on sound. 
I seriously doubt it does.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Fast forward to 28.25 through 30.00 in this video and these are my thoughts exactly. I say this because Ethan Winer is presenting facts based on scientific testing and not relying on anecdotal information to come to his conclusion.

https://youtu.be/ZyWt3kANA3Q

Sorry Gerald, your truck sounds awesome but I just don’t buy this.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Did someone go through the Noel Lee brainwashing academy or something here?


edit:


Let me explain - Sure, the direction a copper wire is drawn out MAY cause differences in the way a signal is carried through the copper. The problem is can you discern it in an double-blind ABX test? Can you discern it within a cabin of a vehicle? While running? While driving on the highway?


I doubt you could detect the difference in perfect conditions, let alone the ones we create in a vehicle.


Electrons pass through a conductor without caring much for anything. Because, you know, they are electrons.


You can raise the temperature of a cup of water a few degrees by yelling at it. It isn't efficient but it does happen. Same thing here.




edit: Also my money is on Nick


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Thanks for posting a link to this Null testing machine video. I started watching it and I already found an important piece of information that Nathan states at the 7:46 minute mark.
> 
> He basically states that if the signal is out of phase even by .005 of a degree the null is limited to 80DB or less.
> 
> ...



The adjustable knob is to allow GAIN of the null difference, and and there's an output impedance match dial too. But he goes on to say if you want to listen to it with headphones or speakers, or set up a scope on the output, it works either way.


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

I just wanna know if you guys are gonna make love or actually do this. To much beating around the bush


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ToNasty said:


> I just wanna know if you guys are gonna make love or actually do this. To much beating around the bush


see my post above. again, im still very open to the idea of taking geralds money. lord knows i can spend it better than he can :laugh:


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> see my post above. again, im still very open to the idea of taking geralds money. lord knows i can spend it better than he can


I saw your post. The question wasnt really for you 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/speaker-cables-can-you-hear-difference-tables-data


Wire is basically, wire. Laymans terms. 

"Thirty foot runs of Monster Cable didn't sound any different than lamp cord. Earth shattering."

Basically as long as the speaker wire was large enough to handle the power/signal, it didn't make much difference. Too small of a wire results in some sort of compression and/or higher resistance. Lower volume will results in perceived differences.

Blah blah blah blah


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> Fast forward to 28.25 through 30.00 in this video and these are my thoughts exactly. I say this because Ethan Winer is presenting facts based on scientific testing and not relying on anecdotal information to come to his conclusion.
> 
> https://youtu.be/ZyWt3kANA3Q
> 
> Sorry Gerald, your truck sounds awesome but I just don’t buy this.


With all due respect, I would propose that his method of conducting scientific testing is flawed as with most methods of scientific testing that are almost always based upon false or incorrect assumptions. 

With regards to the sound of the system in my van, thanks so much for the complement. However, I would like to make it known that up until the day before yesterday, that system has been in an untuned state. It was impossible to bring that system to it's maximum potential prior to correcting the mistakes in the install which had to do with incorrect speaker placement/aiming. 

I've spent the last year trying to get the new iteration ( with ribbon tweeters and Scanspeak midranges ) of the sound system properly tuned with cohesiveness which I believe was impossible task due to installation issues.

Because the drivers are so large and the room was so small in relation it made for a tuning challenge in itself. The drivers were made to be installed in large cabinets that were designed to fill a large room in a house with sound. 

Cramming those large drivers in the relatively small cab of a vehicle all the while learning how to tune a car audio system in the process had a steep learning curve for sure. 

I had been working on different iterations of that system for about 7 1/2 years. Out of frustration of not being able to get the sound just right, I was just about to break down and hire a professional tuner to try and fix what I've been struggling with for so long. Thank goodness that I didn't as it would have been a huge waste of money. 

Correcting the install is what needed to be done before proper tuning could begin.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Gerald, how about you tune your truck with whatever cables you want, and i tune your truck with the basic stinger cables that are on the rack at my shop and we take it to SVR and enter it twice. winner takes $2000. deal?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> Gerald, how about you tune your truck with whatever cables you want, and i tune your truck with the basic stinger cables that are on the rack at my shop and we take it to SVR and enter it twice. winner takes $2000. deal?


What you fail to realize is that "directional" cables and "special" fuses only work their magic for their owner. For anyone else, they "magically" disable themselves (since you didn't pay for the privilege). So this is an unfair test. 

I thought that you, of all people, would have known this! ;-)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

And if any mod is watching this thread, can you close it if gerald declines, please. Thank you. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> see my post above. again, im still very open to the idea of taking geralds money. lord knows i can spend it better than he can :laugh:


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Fair enough Gerald, I can respect your opinion and I can’t argue with your results. I’ll be looking forward to getting another listen to your system at the next meet. I’ll bring my microphone and RTA this time too if that’s ok with you.


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Snake oil takes a little while for the placebo affect to kick in. That's the reason for break in.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Mahapederdon said:


> Snake oil takes a little while for the placebo affect to kick in. That's the reason for break in.


T/S specs change with break in, which means that the behavior of the driver does physically change. Whether it’s enough to cause audible changes or not is debatable, but brushing off break-in as strictly snake oil isn’t quite right.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

GreatLaBroski said:


> T/S specs change with break in, which means that the behavior of the driver does physically change. Whether it’s enough to cause audible changes or not is debatable, but brushing off break-in as strictly snake oil isn’t quite right.


I think he was referring to the 200-300 hour break-in period of the "special" fuses talked about above. 

Speaker break-in, I can understand completely since there is physical movement involved.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I think what I hate the most here is that one of the founding principles of this website is to help dispel the notion that extravagant expense = SQ. 



And yet, here we have someone that seriously aught to know better than to believe these things. We are sensitive instruments and our ears are pretty good. But there's no way electrical signals outputting from a digital device to an analog one, to speakers is going to NOT be something we can measure with absolute authority.


Think about it, Gerald. Just think for one stupid second. The music is decoded from a digital source and converted via (a presumably expensive and capable DAC) to Analog. Right at that point, you've met the very best the signal will sound. So from there, any and every component will not sound more like the original source than that. Now its a race for how much degradation is audible. The "problem" is that the threshold for a signal that audibly sounds different and therefore worse than the original signal is actually much larger than most people imagine. That null tester machine helps bring that to light but there's been plenty of scientific experiments to put this to bed. But people still buy stuff like this anyway. Oh well, at least cable and wire companies can keep people employed.


But it won't make the truck sound better. Install, as you said, is paramount. I have no doubt your truck sounds amazing. But betting against DSP is a fool's bet, especially when the distortion created by one is less than 1/10th of what a human ear (attached to anyone on this planet) can discern. Now, Nick could **** up the tune, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't. I'm also pretty sure the truck could win both ways, which makes a bet like this hard to handle since there's more than enough variables.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

How about this for a bet. Nick takes a pair of super detailed speakers and a really nice amp and swaps Gerald's rca cables with a few others he has on hand ranging from basic Stinger cables to a few higher end ones he has on hand. This would all happen nearfield in a controlled environment. Object is for Gerald to pick out his cables from the others 10/10 times. As for directional cables I was always under the impression that had to do with which end the bleed wire was grounded to to prevent noise. I've also heard of home audio dealers selling high end cables by unplugging and plugging back in the same cable just to freshen up the connection. Psychology is a helluva drug!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

yeah directional shielding is definitely a thing, no doubt about it and it does work. I just built 32 pairs of XLR's with that in mind. And another 24 sets of TRS connections. The outside shield is tapped only at the source.


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

GreatLaBroski said:


> Mahapederdon said:
> 
> 
> > Snake oil takes a little while for the placebo affect to kick in. That's the reason for break in.
> ...


Should if been more clear. I'm mostly referring to cables and fuses.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I've used the same 100a hardware store MAXIpad fuse under the hood for over 10 years. Should I replace it with an SQ fuse for better sound? What about the fuses in the block on the amp rack?


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

Lanson said:


> yeah directional shielding is definitely a thing, no doubt about it and it does work. I just built 32 pairs of XLR's with that in mind. And another 24 sets of TRS connections. The outside shield is tapped only at the source.


For balanced differential?

This is news to me.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Wait... in an audition of RCA cables whose copper directionality is unknown, is it not likely that such cables might happen to be constructed and/or connected correctly (for audition) with respect to copper directionality? If there's any truth to the alleged audibility of directional copper, shouldn't Gerald be able to tell which cables have (or have not) been constructed and/or connected correctly with respect to copper directionality?

By what means could there be a control for random directionality among ordinary ("non-directional copper") cables in any proposed cable shootout?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Grinder said:


> Wait... in an audition of RCA cables whose copper directionality is unknown, is it not likely that such cables might happen to be constructed and/or connected correctly (for audition) with respect to copper directionality? If there's any truth to the alleged audibility of directional copper, shouldn't Gerald be able to tell which cables have (or have not) been constructed and/or connected correctly with respect to copper directionality?
> 
> By what means could there be a control for random directionality among ordinary ("non-directional copper") cables in any proposed cable shootout?


Film the changes so Gerald can verify after the fact?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Film the changes so Gerald can verify after the fact?




<edit> I'm not sure how ^that^ would address the issue of random, unknown copper directionality among ordinary (directionally unmarked) cables that might happen to be constructed and/or connected with respect to "optimal" copper directionality.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Grinder said:


> Wait... in an audition of RCA cables whose copper directionality is unknown, is it not likely that such cables might happen to be constructed and/or connected correctly (for audition) with respect to copper directionality? If there's any truth to the alleged audibility of directional copper, shouldn't Gerald be able to tell which cables have (or have not) been constructed and/or connected correctly with respect to copper directionality?
> 
> By what means could there be a control for random directionality among ordinary ("non-directional copper") cables in any proposed cable shootout?



Isn't that what the little arrows are for??


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

seafish said:


> Isn't that what the little arrows are for??


Absent an objective means of determining copper directionality of an unmarked cable, there can be no control for random directionality ...if that makes sense.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

seafish said:


> Isn't that what the little arrows are for??


Those little arrows are presumably all that's needed if testing is limited to such cables.



Anyway... this whole audible copper directionality thing is ridiculous.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Pretty sure Tesla never cared about and neither should we.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

If the arrows are pointed the wrong way will the music play backwards causing hidden messages in songs to be revealed?


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Long ago Soundstream (old school 90's) made directional RCA-type cables with arrows and connectors. Many hot installs used their cables (light-medium green jacket/color... can spot it from far and in magazine pictures too). Most cables are the diy type... cut the soundstream cable to your favorite exact length for absolute major OCD-ness... and then solder these connectors. They didn't claim the music or anything to be directional. The shield/wrapper is grounded only on one end (source side) and that's all it meant and people use the arrows to tell which connector/end goes to which side.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Grinder said:


> Absent an objective means of determining copper directionality of an unmarked cable, there can be no control for random directionality ...if that makes sense.


Print a bi-direction arrow on the other cables ?? JK/LOL !!!


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

seafish said:


> Print a bi-direction arrow on the other cables ?? JK/LOL !!!


_Now_ you're talking!!! LOL


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

via Imgflip Meme Generator


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

that particular snake oil looks pretty tasty though.,


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Gerald, how about you tune your truck with whatever cables you want, and i tune your truck with the basic stinger cables that are on the rack at my shop and we take it to SVR and enter it twice. winner takes $2000. deal?





SkizeR said:


> And if any mod is watching this thread, can you close it if gerald declines, please. Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Just making sure this doesnt get buried. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Just making sure this doesnt get buried.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

jtrosky said:


> I think he was referring to the 200-300 hour break-in period of the "special" fuses talked about above.
> 
> Speaker break-in, I can understand completely since there is physical movement involved.


Ah. I'm going to have to go with a "no dawg" on that one.


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Alright, I'm gonna buy a set of these "directionals" and hook em up to an SSTDR. ours goes up to 300Mghz. If there is any difference in the directionality, at any frequency the sstdr will see it and tell me how far from the source in centimeters the flaw is. It will also indicate the amplitude of the reflection.

And the best feature.....this machine is designed to be used on live circuits, so if a specific freq. is degraded it will detect it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuoDi1t8Eh0


Here is a link to a study done on wire drawing 

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.923.3712&rep=rep1&type=pdf


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Also this,

https://fiskalloy.com/products/wire-facts/grain-size/


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

This "conductor directionality" assumes a DC signal. In other words, the current must flow in the 'good' direction all the time. Yet audio signals are AC. Current will flow both directions in the cable. How in the world can the magic cable improve sound quality if signal is going the "wrong" direction half of the time?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

nyquistrate said:


> This "conductor directionality" assumes a DC signal. In other words, the current must flow in the 'good' direction all the time. Yet audio signals are AC. Current will flow both directions in the cable. How in the world can the magic cable improve sound quality if signal is going the "wrong" direction half of the time?


....


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I thought audio signals were both?


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

nyquistrate said:


> This "conductor directionality" assumes a DC signal. In other words, the current must flow in the 'good' direction all the time. Yet audio signals are AC. Current will flow both directions in the cable. How in the world can the magic cable improve sound quality if signal is going the "wrong" direction half of the time?


Excellent point

I imagine that Gerald is simply going to say that his hearing must be sensitive enough to diagnose the 50% improvement that the directional cable offers 50% of the time. ?


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

seafish said:


> Excellent point
> 
> I imagine that Gerald is simply going to say that his hearing must be sensitive enough to diagnose the 50% improvement that the directional cable offers 50% of the time. ?


Ha, interesting guess on the response. Maybe the 50% positive leaves an eddy current trail to compensate for the 50% negative effect?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

seafish said:


> Excellent point
> 
> I imagine that Gerald is simply going to say that his hearing must be sensitive enough to diagnose the 50% improvement that the directional cable offers 50% of the time. ?


:laugh::laugh::laugh: Every little bit helps!


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

nyquistrate said:


> Ha, interesting guess on the response. Maybe the 50% positive leaves an eddy current trail to compensate for the 50% negative effect?


Better still! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

The power of suggestion is a hulluva drug!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Gerald, how about you tune your truck with whatever cables you want, and i tune your truck with the basic stinger cables that are on the rack at my shop and we take it to SVR and enter it twice. winner takes $2000. deal?





SkizeR said:


> And if any mod is watching this thread, can you close it if gerald declines, please. Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Hi Gerald


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Gerald, how about you tune your truck with whatever cables you want, and i tune your truck with the basic stinger cables that are on the rack at my shop and we take it to SVR and enter it twice. winner takes $2000. deal?


You are just sore because your vehicle placed 37th and mine 3rd in the Top 40, and now you feel like you have something to prove.

I don't have the need to prove anything to anyone, anymore. 

With regards to a "Top-30 tune off" I could very easily take your money as well as embarrass you, especially if you use basic Stinger off the shelf cables. 

Do you really want to run the risk of losing money and getting your ass handed to you by a car audio amateur?


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## FattyBoomBoom (Sep 22, 2019)

Today I learned that car audio can be aggressive and turn hostile ?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQOQ3RBKvbE


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> You are just sore because your vehicle placed 37th and mine 3rd in the Top 40, and now you feel like you have something to prove.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it should be easy. Deal or no deal?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## FattyBoomBoom (Sep 22, 2019)

Is this like Yankee vs Red Sox beef?


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## truckerfte (Jul 30, 2010)

This thread has been entertaining to watch. 

Am I to assume that we are back to the cables making a difference? 

I have a proposal. 

I'm taking a vacation the 29th through the 5th. I am planning on a basic build in one of my cars. It seems like a good opportunity. 

I'll do the install, and set it up for a simple cable swap. 

Nick, send me your off the shelf cables, and do a remote tune on the dsp408. Gerald, send me a set of your fancy cables. Both of you send checks for your respective bets. 

I'll run the car down to either OKC, or DFW. There are handfuls of known judges in either area. I'll let them judge and decide. I will swap the cables, and conceal which set is being used. 

Winner gets the other guys check. 

Simple enough. Same car, same equipment, same time, same judges. If the only thing being judged is cables, it would seem the best way to do it.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

FattyBoomBoom said:


> Is this like Yankee vs Red Sox beef?


More like ideology and magic vs reason and evidence. LOL


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

good Lord, who cares already. if either one wants to prove to folks who is better than enter your cars in a SQ show and let the judges decide, who ever cars scores the best is the winner and takes home the money on bet, pretty simple.

sounds like gerald is 1-0 so far but no bet was made, dunno what the deal is with the two of ya and don't really care but if you wanna prove yourself, chk the calendar and see when the next big SQ show is, put some money on the line and let the pro judges decide


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Porsche said:


> good Lord, who cares already. if either one wants to prove to folks who is better than enter your cars in a SQ show and let the judges decide, who ever cars scores the best is the winner and takes home the money on bet, pretty simple.
> 
> sounds like gerald is 1-0 so far but no bet was made, dunno what the deal is with the two of ya and don't really care but if you wanna prove yourself, chk the calendar and see when the next big SQ show is, put some money on the line and let the pro judges decide


This!


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)




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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> good Lord, who cares already. if either one wants to prove to folks who is better than enter your cars in a SQ show and let the judges decide, who ever cars scores the best is the winner and takes home the money on bet, pretty simple.
> 
> 
> 
> sounds like gerald is 1-0 so far but no bet was made, dunno what the deal is with the two of ya and don't really care but if you wanna prove yourself, chk the calendar and see when the next big SQ show is, put some money on the line and let the pro judges decide


If you read the first page or so, you would see that's what we were trying to do. Enter his truck twice with 2 different tunes.. Problem is, gerald wont put his money where his ass is. I would say mouth, but he seems to talk more from his ass than anything 

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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Grinder said:


> More like ideology and magic vs reason and evidence. LOL


All I have done on this forum is share my experiences and experimentation with audio gear. 

Some people have found my comments about my findings, illogical, unscientific, "magical". ( Not factual or scientific )


The proof is in the pudding. Look at the competition scores which are factual pieces of evidence. 

The only thing I'm trying to do here is be open, honest and communicate things which may help people improve upon their own systems. 

One can choose to either take my information and use it to improve upon your own system or one can discard it as hogwash. 

The choice is yours to make.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

So what do you say gerald.. your car, 2 tunes, whatever cables you want and whatever cheap cables I have laying around. Enter it twice into a competition. $2k bet. Ready? 

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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> So what do you say gerald.. your car, 2 tunes, whatever cables you want and whatever cheap cables I have paying around. Enter it twice into a competition. $2k bet. Ready?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I get the fact that you are trying to redeem yourself from such a low score at SVR. I get that you would like a chance to prove that you can out tune me.

I've already done the cable swap thing and I know how much of a difference it makes. 

As far as this bet goes, I would be willing to move forward with some sort of high stakes challenge, but you need to bring your own creation. 

No offense, but I don't want anyone messing with my new system, especially someone that has a beef against me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> I get the fact that you are trying to redeem yourself from such a low score at SVR. I get that you would like a chance to prove that you can out tune me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, so just tune. You in or you out? Simple question, simple answer..

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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I think the only reason there's beef here is that this has been an ongoing bet attempt since December of 2016. I mean, you're almost a whole presidency term's worth of time in dragging feet on this.


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