# Ceiling speakers: Quality vs Cash Help me make the right choice



## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Hey guys, 

I have screwed around with a ton of questions on here about my setup and we are about to start the living room remodel in about 3 weeks. We decided to go with ceiling mounted surround (rear and side) for the 7.1 and put the money towards higher end floor towers and center. Here is what we are working with and my question. 

14x19 room. TV (60") in one corner facing the furthest corner where the sectional couch (10'x8'). Rears will be above the 8' section and the side surrounds will be 15-30 degrees off of those angled on point (if I can find a pair that come with pivoting tweets).

Questions: What fq range (specific) is really necessary for the rear and for the sides? Some I have found are close in range but so far off in price. Speaking of.....As you can see by my signature, I love clean clear sound, however I only plan to stay in this house for 5-6 more years. So I really do not want to spend 400pr on ceiling speakers. Especially when they are primarily for surround sounds only.....

I have looked at B&W and love their range, but not the price, however will probably go with them for the front stage. Like I said, do I really need anything like that for a room this small for surround speakers?

I have looked at Klipsch. Their prices are higher then B&W on some, but have a slimmer fq range but use a horn technology. Again is it really necessary? they have a lower end, but I dont want crap in my ceiling I will regret putting in. 

DAT sent me this link to look through: Speakers - Audio

I am not sure if I need to spend that much on surround ceiling speakers. 

If YOU GUYS think I do, then damnit I will dig deep and listen. This forum has never lead me astray. However, If you guys think I can get good quality sound out of something that is only a couple hundred a pair, I would be happier. 

I have a HK AVR240 (50w rms) powering whatever is decided on. Powered sub as well. Links are welcome. So are questions. Wife wants to get things bought so when I get started we are not waiting on things to show up in the mail. 

Thanks in advance, and a special thanks to the guys who have gotten me this far in the decision making process.

Jesse


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

Tannoy

BUT....speaker timbre matching will result in a better overall sounding set-up / system.

Chuck


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

stereo_luver said:


> Tannoy
> 
> BUT....speaker timbre matching will result in a better overall sounding set-up / system.
> 
> Chuck


I was afraid someone would say that. Cheapest B&Ws are about 400pr. Nothing like unloading 800 for surrounds then needing cash for the towers and center.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

Buy the fronts first( whatever they may be) those are the most important speakers. Maybe look at doing some DIY stuff( if you have the skills and time) 

Like this here:
Speaker Projects Gallery,Speaker Design Goals, Project Materials, Enclosure Assembly, Speaker Project Photos and More, Submitted By Parts Express Customers.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Errrrrrrr I would, but i am redoing the 90yr old ceiling and pulling wire.......hopefully once, in 3 weeks. Might have to poney up the dough for the good surrounds if that is the route ya'll think i shouls go to keep the system synchronous.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

Timbre matching is more important across the front 3 rather than all around. It is entirely doable to have front 3 and surrounds be from different manufacturers. Have all surrounds be matched to each other though. Have you ever looked at Paradigm? They make some nice stuff too. Remember, surrounds are more ambient, they don't really need to be superduper awesome, just need to be there. For the massive savings, I would look hard at these:
IN-WALL SPEAKERS from Parts Express ship same day and come with 45 day money back guarantee. Free Shipping Available. Order free 10,000 product catalog.

Remember, just because it is inexpensive does not mean it sucks. I like the offerings from MTX and Dayton on that page.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I have a set of PE ceiling speakers and using them as in walls in my garage, they are surprisingly robust and good sounding. Unfortunately they don't make my specific model anymore IIRC.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

Those BIC America speakers look very promising as well. I like the 8" 3 way with the point source setup for $162, it looks pretty good, and for 162 bucks a pair and the excellent CS that PE has, it would be a nobrainer for me.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Are in-wall the same thing as ceiling? I was looking for some round grill 6.5" speakers for the ceiling. Not sure how the in wall, rectangle look, will fly with the wife in the ceiling. Man those prices are awesome. 

Thanks Generalkorrd and stereo_luver for your links and insight in this. I am sorry I forgot to mention I do have some Denon speakers from a surround sound I can use for the front stage for the time being. They have to be better then the accustimass I have now. Not smaller.....but better.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> Those BIC America speakers look very promising as well. I like the 8" 3 way with the point source setup for $162, it looks pretty good, and for 162 bucks a pair and the excellent CS that PE has, it would be a nobrainer for me.


Those are looking tempting.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Did a quick search of Paradigm.............maybe in my next house. 650-1000.00 a pr for their ceiling speakers. Wow. Look nice though.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> Did a quick search of Paradigm.............maybe in my next house. 650-1000.00 a pr for their ceiling speakers. Wow. Look nice though.


Wow, I never looked at their inwall stuff. The floor standers seem to be a bit more cost effective. That's kind of typical though, charge out the ass for an inwall. I think the markup is higher there than in the regular stuff.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

I am on ebay looking at round ceiling speakers. Any other companies you suggest? I am looking into Niles, Paradigm, Dayton, MTX, BIC, Harmon K, and Theater Solutions (never heard of them but they seem to offer a lot. Any others lemme know. Thanks General. 

Jesse


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

generalkorrd said:


> *Timbre matching is more important across the front 3 rather than all around.* It is entirely doable to have front 3 and surrounds be from different manufacturers. Have all surrounds be matched to each other though. Have you ever looked at Paradigm? They make some nice stuff too. Remember, surrounds are more ambient, they don't really need to be superduper awesome, just need to be there. For the massive savings, I would look hard at these:
> IN-WALL SPEAKERS from Parts Express ship same day and come with 45 day money back guarantee. Free Shipping Available. Order free 10,000 product catalog.
> 
> Remember, just because it is inexpensive does not mean it sucks. I like the offerings from MTX and Dayton on that page.


Not entirely true. Prior to my current career as a stock trader, I sold stereo/Home Cinema equipment for 13 years. Much similar to car audio, Timbre Matching around is key.



splaudiohz said:


> *Are in-wall the same thing as ceiling?* I was looking for some round grill 6.5" speakers for the ceiling. Not sure how the in wall, rectangle look, will fly with the wife in the ceiling. Man those prices are awesome.
> 
> Thanks Generalkorrd and stereo_luver for your links and insight in this. I am sorry I forgot to mention I do have some Denon speakers from a surround sound I can use for the front stage for the time being. They have to be better then the accustimass I have now. Not smaller.....but better.


Yes & no. Remember, In Ceiling recessed is off axis listening. 

Strong recommendation to research: SpeakerCraft. They are the OEM manufacturer for Elan speakers & automation among other companies. This should save you big money. Thank me later. Take it from here.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I'll grab a pic of my Daytons I have on the wall, they have a swivel tweet. PE has to sell something similar, I've had them for some time now and have been no angel to them.

We moved here in 2004, I believe my wife got them for me for my birthday in sept 2005, fantastic, just love them for car washing, garage work, etc. They exceeded my expectations.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

robert_wrath said:


> Yes & no. Remember, In Ceiling recessed is off axis listening.
> 
> Strong recommendation to research: SpeakerCraft. They are the OEM manufacturer for Elan speakers & automation among other companies. This should save you big money. Thank me later. Take it from here.


I figured they were, but I asked for ceiling speaker suggestions and got links and suggestions for in-wall, so i wasn't 100% sure. I am still very new at this and there are many others who know a hell of a lot more then me.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

robert_wrath said:


> Strong recommendation to research: SpeakerCraft. They are the OEM manufacturer for Elan speakers & automation among other companies. This should save you big money. Thank me later. Take it from here.


Not sure about saving big money as the prices are per speaker, what line do you suggest?
Speakers Subwoofers | eBay


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

If you are in a situation that you for some reason can't timbre match all around, then it is not such a big deal to have mismatched front to surrounds.

EDIT: As long as the fronts are matched to each other, and the surrounds matched to each other. You can also help a little bit by trying to match the types of drivers. I.E. if your fronts have paper woofs and aluminum tweets, try to find the same in your surrounds, that may help somewhat as far as timbre matching goes. Mixing horns and traditional cones is probably not the best idea. EDIT


Don't go with speakercraft. It is not nearly as nice as the BIC or Dayton stuff. I've used it, installed it, and never really liked Speakercraft. Niles stuff sounded better, and I wasn't super impressed with it either. 

Buy the Dayton or BIC and use the return policy from PE if needed. If you can get it from PE, I wouldnt get it off Ebay. Returns through PE are easy, while Ebay... not so much. 

Just have all the other work done, so all you have to do is cut holes and drop speaks in. That saves you time against any return policies. I can guarantee you that you will find something that makes you happy on PE. They have enough variety to please almost anyone.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Was looking at in-wall /ceiling speakers myself at one point. The Dayton Audio products are hard to pass up given their reputation, large offereings, and great prices. When i go to local high end audio stores, I get turned on by the big name products but get turned off quick by the price. When I finally do get around to building my home theater system i have a feeling that my mains will be self built and my rears are goingto be something self built or something like the Daytons. Also, I have been qurious curious about the BIC America speakers as well. The Kevlar 6.5" 2-way VK6C caught my eye. But the BIG VK310C 3-way with the 10" woofer seems like it would be interesting if one is willing to cut such a large hole.
BIC America VK310C 10" 3-Way Kevlar Series Ceiling Speaker with

BIG speaker = BIG surround sound!









The few reviews around and on Amazon all look good...but would need to order one and try it out to see how it would work with the other speakers in the system.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

WLDock said:


> Was looking at in-wall /ceiling speakers myself at one point. The Dayton Audio products are hard to pass up given their reputation, large offereings, and great prices. When i go to local high end audio stores, I get turned on by the big name products but get turned off quick by the price. When I finally do get around to building my home theater system i have a feeling that my mains will be self built and my rears are goingto be something self built or something like the Daytons. Also, I have been qurious curious about the BIC America speakers as well. The Kevlar 6.5" 2-way VK6C caught my eye. But the BIG VK310C 3-way with the 10" woofer seems like it would be interesting if one is willing to cut such a large hole.
> BIC America VK310C 10" 3-Way Kevlar Series Ceiling Speaker with
> 
> BIG speaker = BIG surround sound!
> ...


That 3way 10 does look nice. It would need to have black cones for me though, the yellow is a touch much.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

sorry guys but BIC is crap and Dayton isnt far behind


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Porsche said:


> sorry guys but BIC is crap and Dayton isnt far behind


And the enclosure you are putting it in is ****ed too 

So point is?


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

chad said:


> And the enclosure you are putting it in is ****ed too
> 
> So point is?


point is he was asking about the BIC 10's, they suck. Heard a few Daytons as well and have never been impressed, but hey, what do i know.

If you are on a budget look at the Sonance TS622r or 623r. SpeakerCraft makes a decent speaker as well


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

I am on Dayton's site now. Looking at their different lines. Looking at BIC too. Other then that big ass 10, I am up for suggestions. I like the BIC VK-6Cs for possibly all four surrounds. Picking through Dayton now, US650C or US850Cs both look good for the side surrounds and maybe the ES65C for the rear fill.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Porsche said:


> point is he was asking about the BIC 10's, they suck. Heard a few Daytons as well and have never been impressed, but hey, what do i know.
> 
> If you are on a budget look at the Sonance TS622r or 623r. SpeakerCraft makes a decent speaker as well


Here we go. Another company to look into.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Porsche said:


> point is he was asking about the BIC 10's, they suck. Heard a few Daytons as well and have never been impressed, but hey, what do i know.
> 
> If you are on a budget look at the Sonance TS622r or 623r. SpeakerCraft makes a decent speaker as well


I liked the sonance, my daytons were on close out at the time. They really do sound good, have a REAL crossover too! Given the fact that I go 6 feet from a set of JBL studio monitors to those and they are not repulsive.. That's not a bad comparison.

A lot of BIC stuff sucks, the name was bought out, they WERE bang (literally) for the buck, now, not impressed.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Porsche said:


> If you are on a budget look at the Sonance TS622r or 623r.


Rectangle speakers wont fly in the ceiling with the wife.


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

chad said:


> I liked the sonance, my daytons were on close out at the time. They really do sound good, have a REAL crossover too! Given the fact that I go 6 feet from a set of JBL studio monitors to those and they are not repulsive.. That's not a bad comparison.
> 
> A lot of BIC stuff sucks, the name was bought out, they WERE bang (literally) for the buck, now, not impressed.


To be fair, I have not heard any BIC stuff, but for the price it looks interesting on the website. With a return policy as good as PE's, I figure you can't go wrong if you are on a budget to at least try some of the better looking stuff.

I have not heard any Dayton stuff that I didn't like. Never fell in love with it, but didn't hate it either.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Maybe I need to start a poll on BIC, Dayton and Sonace.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

splaudiohz said:


> Rectangle speakers wont fly in the ceiling with the wife.


they make a round version as well


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

I have three that are FOR SpeakerCraft A couple for BIC, and Dayton across the board and one with Sonace on the board.


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## stuman (Jan 29, 2012)

splaudiohz said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I have screwed around with a ton of questions on here about my setup and we are about to start the living room remodel in about 3 weeks. We decided to go with ceiling mounted surround (rear and side) for the 7.1 and put the money towards higher end floor towers and center. Here is what we are working with and my question.
> 
> ...


I agree with not spend too much on the surround speakers. I have tannoy front and center and use Elan speakers for the surrounds on the family room.
It's powered by Marantz SR 8400 with 110W per channel.
Elan is the makers of home multiroom audio video controller some of their speaker lines are actually quite musical.ELAN HOME SYSTEMS: ME Series Speakers
you definitely want to listen to them first and then you can look at ebay if you can get them.
The rest of the house, I have B&W in wall which sounds pretty good for in wall speaker with energy in ceiling for surround. 
I also listened to paradigm which also sounded pretty good


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Daytons 8" woofer 1" tweet on a swivel: 




















What they are up against from room to room:


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

As much as I would like to have 8s, I really have no need for 4 (or even 2) 8" woofers in my 14X19 living room as surround, especially since the front stage will more then likely be B&W CM series with a powered sub. I am seriously considering the 6 1/2 Kevlar in ceiling. 
Dayton Audio US620C 6-1/2" Coaxial Ceiling Speaker Pair 300-470


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## generalkorrd (Jan 10, 2009)

splaudiohz said:


> As much as I would like to have 8s, I really have no need for 4 (or even 2) 8" woofers in my 14X19 living room as surround, especially since the front stage will more then likely be B&W CM series with a powered sub. I am seriously considering the 6 1/2 Kevlar in ceiling.
> Dayton Audio US620C 6-1/2" Coaxial Ceiling Speaker Pair 300-470


Those would do just fine as surrounds.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Porsche said:


> sorry guys but BIC is crap and Dayton isnt far behind ....point is he was asking about the BIC 10's, they suck. Heard a few Daytons as well and have never been impressed, but hey, what do i know.
> If you are on a budget look at the Sonance TS622r or 623r. SpeakerCraft makes a decent speaker as well


WOW, they are that bad? I have never heard them but wanted to based on the BIC speakers that I heard awhile back sounded good for the money. That 10" seemed like a nice way to get some BIG sound in the rear...reminiscent of these the updated movie theaters today. So, don't take the "what do I know" attitude...offer up your insite...I may need some surrounds myself soon. 

I would think that Sonance makes a nice product....aren't they like the originator of in-wall speakers? I do find it hard to believe that the Daytons are crap...They generally offer a good value...at least the RS drivers that I have heard and read sooo much about. That US620C seems like a nice speaker. Porsche, you remember what Daytons you listened to? On paper the two models fair well....but the price of the Sonance is more than double. What did you like about the Sonance over the Dayton...if it was the same model? What did the Daytons do wrong? I may have to see if I can listen to the Sonance myself here local.

*Dayton Audio US620C - $143.78 a pair* 
- Perfect for high-end whole house audio applications
- 6-1/2" Kevlar® cone woofer with rubber surround
- 3/4" coaxially mounted pivoting silk dome tweeter
- 12 dB/octave crossover with polyswitch overdrive protection 
• Power handling: 50 watts RMS/100 watts max • Impedance: 8 ohms • Frequency response: 45-20,000 Hz • SPL: 91 dB 1W/1m 

*Sonance ORIGINAL SERIES MEDIUM 623R ~ $339.99 pair*
- Tweeter: 1" (25mm) silk dome, ferrofluid cooled, pivoting, in acoustic back chamber, Tweeter level adjustment ±3dB 
- Woofer: 6 1/2" (165mm) coated carbon fiber cone with a rubber surround, pivoting
- Frequency Response: 43Hz - 20kHz ±3dB
- Impedance: 8 ohms nominal; 6 ohms minimum
- Power Handling: 5 watts minimum; 135 watts maximum
- Sensitivity: 90dB (2.83V/1 meter) aluminum

However, given the price of the Sonance...I would want to consider a Dipole/Bipole option at that price point....Porsche, what are your thoughts on Dipole/Bipole for surrounds?

Anyone know the story on these JAMO 6.521K4 3-way in-ceiling dipole surround: http://www.jamo.com/na-en/products/su6-521k4-description/

I think these are no longer made? - $129 Pair close out price. I wonder if the model number is correct because the SU6.521K4 model has two mid and two tweets and does not match the picture in the auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jamo-Ceilin...99?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3f13ce5803 

This is the SU6.521K4 model: http://www.customdistributing.com/content/JAMO_LIT_SU6.521K4.PDF


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