# Bad ground?



## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

I got my old system installed by some local guy. Over time, the amp would keep powering off. I adjusted all gains real low and it would still turn off as I put the volume up

I recently replaced the entire system but kept the same wiring since it is 4 gauge and more than enough. The new amp kept powering off as well, and going into protection mode. So i decided to check the ground wire and this is what I found:




























Now, Im pretty sure this is what is causing the amp to turn off. I will be buying 0 gauge grounding wire tomorrow and replacing that wire. Any idea what might have caused that? Or why that happened?

Anyways, another question i have, even with the gains low, bassbost off, LFP relatively low, the amp got real hot. Could this be an issue related to the grounding cable?

I am running a precision power ppi1000, my speakers run at 800 watts, so I got a little head room


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Is that thing attached to a seat bracket or something? You should find a better grounding spot, floor pan or something and shine it up and attach it. It certainly looks like it got burnt.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> Is that thing attached to a seat bracket or something? You should find a better grounding spot, floor pan or something and shine it up and attach it. It certainly looks like it got burnt.


The installer grounded it to the back of the seat, under the material lining

I don't know where else I can ground, maybe by the spare tire?

I don't know what caused it


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

What kind of car is it OP?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> The installer grounded it to the back of the seat, under the material lining


Oh hell no!

Bottom of the spare tire well works. Just dont attach it to any brackets or anything that is just tack welded on, go right for the main body panel. Make sure to shine the spot to bare shiny metal.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

mires said:


> What kind of car is it OP?


08 accord coupe



REGULARCAB said:


> Oh hell no!
> 
> Bottom of the spare tire well works. Just dont attach it to any brackets or anything that is just tack welded on, go right for the main body panel. Make sure to shine the spot to bare shiny metal.


Anything with a bolt? Ill sand down the paint and ground there then, Ill have to look. Is it ok to have a ground cable thats about 3 feet long?

I read somewhere your ground cable should be the length of your power cable, which isn't the case currently


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> 08 accord coupe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would make the ground as short as u can possibly get away with. You can use an existing bolt as long as whatever it is bolting into is tied into the main body of the car. Under a seat bolt, touching the metal of the car works some times.

You are looking for the clearest path from your ground location back to where the body is attached to the negative of the battery.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> I would make the ground as short as u can possibly get away with. You can use an existing bolt as long as whatever it is bolting into is tied into the main body of the car. Under a seat bolt, touching the metal of the car works some times.
> 
> You are looking for the clearest path from your ground location back to where the body is attached to the negative of the battery.


My ground goes from the amplifier to the ground location


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> My ground goes from the amplifier to the ground location


...and through the metal of the car back to the negative post of the battery. Or im confused.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Unless you are running wire all the way back to the battery, which would work as well, but isnt needed.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> Unless you are running wire all the way back to the battery, which would work as well, but isnt needed.


No, i think you're confused. My ground wire is inserted to the amplifier, and from the amplifier it is grounded in the pictures above. Thats it

Nothing is connected to battery besides the positive cable


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> ...and through the metal of the car back to the negative post of the battery. Or im confused.


Unless you're talking electricity wise or something. Not a physical wire lol


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Or im being trolled.

Its a big loop. Positive post is connected to the positive on the amp, negative in the amp is connected to a good piece of metal in the car, metal in the car is connected to the negative post of the battery

The back of the seat was not properly connected to the metal of the car, so it caused issues with the amps.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> Or im being trolled.
> 
> Its a big loop. Positive post is connected to the positive on the amp, negative in the amp is connected to a good piece of metal in the car, metal in the car is connected to the negative post of the battery
> 
> The back of the seat was not properly connected to the metal of the car, so it caused issues with the amps.


Correct lol. Could that have caused the amp to get as hot as it did?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> Correct lol. Could that have caused the amp to get as hot as it did?


Sure could.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> Sure could.


Ok so I'm going to buy the replacement ground tomorrow and look for something under the seat then

That would be a fine area right? The only thing I'm worried about is the ground getting hot and burning up, and possibly starting a fire or something?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> Ok so I'm going to buy the replacement ground tomorrow and look for something under the seat then
> 
> That would be a fine area right? The only thing I'm worried about is the ground getting hot and burning up, and possibly starting a fire or something?


Nah, as long as you are grounded directly to the metal of the car you should never have an issue like the one in the picture.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> Nah, as long as you are grounded directly to the metal of the car you should never have an issue like the one in the picture.


Im googling for locations on the chasis to ground but everyone seems to ground in the same spot on this car


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> Nah, as long as you are grounded directly to the metal of the car you should never have an issue like the one in the picture.












So thats the original location, behind the seat 

This is where Im going to move it after I shave down the paint to bare metal










I assume thats like a 10mm bolt?


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

also make sure that wire isnt loose in the ring terminal.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

DonutHands said:


> also make sure that wire isnt loose in the ring terminal.


4 gauge 15 ft long will handle 131 amps (source bcae) with a 1/2 volt dropYopu are talking 3 ft.
You can stick to your 4 gauge. Make sure your wire to ring terminal connection is very tight.
Do not use a zinc plated bolt or screw. That current ground location sucks because the seat is bolted down with zinc plated bolts among other reasons. The car "floor" behind or under the seat should work. As said, sand down paint and (I repeat myself) use a bolt or screw that is not zinc plated.


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## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

looks like he stripped that wire really far back and the boot was sitting on bare wire. Resistance = heat and probably what melted the boot


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

It's not the wire. The ring terminal is too small and light and the guy who installed it used a #8 self tapping screw, which is no good. It should have been bolted with a real bolt to an area that is solid and cleaned of the paint and the proper gauge ring terminal should have been used. The undersized ring terminal is heating up and burning the insulation where it touches because it's causing too much resistance. This is also why your amp is shutting down because of the voltage drop.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

V8toilet said:


> It's not the wire. The ring terminal is too small and light and the guy who installed it used a #8 self tapping screw, which is no good. It should have been bolted with a real bolt to an area that is solid and cleaned of the paint and the proper gauge ring terminal should have been used. The undersized ring terminal is heating up and burning the insulation where it touches because it's causing too much resistance. This is also why your amp is shutting down because of the voltage drop.


I believe this is close to the mark.

I would say the screw is not applying any real pressure to the ring terminal. 

The ring terminal is big enough, the crimp appears tight, and the only explanation left is the contact area between the terminal and the car's metal, is not giving sufficient current transfer. This would heat up the ring terminal, causing the melted insulation of the terminal sleeve.

I would place a grounding block with three made for metal screws used to hold it in place, with a sanding of the car metal under the block.

the wire inserts into the block, and is held in place by a compression screw similar to that of some amplifier terminals.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

I would go back to this installer and backhand him... the phuq is that?!


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## reath1 (Apr 15, 2014)

I think the main problem here is that the ground is on the seat frame itself. That means that your "ground" is trying to ground between where it is screwed, not a good idea, the seat tracks, which are not solid, and the seat bolts. Very bad idea. Just put a good ring terminal on the end and put it on the main seat bolt.

Makes me wonder how the rest of the install is wired if your guy thought this was a good idea.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

it appears to be on the car body, not the seat frame?

The problem with the theory of an insufficient ground path is that the resistance, and tell-tale sign of heat, is at the terminal suggesting that the problem is right there.

if you look closely at the screw used to hold the ring terminal in place, it appears to be warped and a slight gap has developed between the screw's built-in flange and the ring terminal.

if you heat up the ring terminal at the screw, it will only show heat-related problems where something can burn, which is why there is burnt insulation.


I would suspect the installer to have tightened down the screw with the little sleeve you slide over the terminal, wedged between the ring terminal and the car's body.

this would have appeared to be tight to the installer, but there would have been a slight angle to the terminal leaving very little contact area. 

Once the terminal got hot, and melted the plastic under it, it laid flat against the metal but with a loose connection.

It's possible all that needed to be done was someone use a big screwdriver and add mechanical torque to the now-loose screw, making sufficient contact area between the now flat terminal and the car metal.

Although, I agree with others that the screw's use is stupid stupid stupid. 


BTW, I myself once attempted to use a screw in this same manner, with similar size of wire and terminal, and developed a lot of heat at the grounding point.

My "fix" was to add a second screw directly alongside the first, since the ring terminal had a large hole, and with both screws holding down the terminal, it worked.

It wasn't acceptable practice and I wouldn't think of doing it again today, knowing there are specialized connectors made specifically for grounding large conductors all over the place online, if I didn't want to pay 19.99 at the local shop for an appropriate piece.


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## reath1 (Apr 15, 2014)

cajunner, with all due respect, the OP stated "The installer grounded it to the back of the seat, under the material lining

I don't know where else I can ground, maybe by the spare tire?

I don't know what caused it".


If you look at the pics you can clearly see the seat foam. The ground wire IS attached to the seat frame itself. Leaving the slide mechanism between the ground wire and a good grounding point. It will never work.

OP, move the grounding point to a seat bolt at the floor. Problem solved.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

cajunner said:


> it appears to be on the car body, not the seat frame?
> 
> The problem with the theory of an insufficient ground path is that the resistance, and tell-tale sign of heat, is at the terminal suggesting that the problem is right there.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with everything you said. I already removed the ground wire and disconnected my amp for the time being. I bought new 4 gauge wire to replace it, the only problem was that I couldn't get it drilled into the car with a bolt. It just either staying loose, or stripping the bolt. So I gave up after like 3 hours. And I managed to get it pretty deep in, but it was still loose and moving around, and I know its suppose to be a stiff solid connection. 

Im just gonna take it to a shop so they ground it for me, everything is done anyways. The only piece missing is to find someone with the proper tools to just ground it on the chassis. I already found 2 spots, under the seats, and behind the rear seats theres another area.



reath1 said:


> cajunner, with all due respect, the OP stated "The installer grounded it to the back of the seat, under the material lining
> 
> I don't know where else I can ground, maybe by the spare tire?
> 
> ...



Yeah it was attached for the seat frame. The metal brackets. I plan to, but since there is not existing bolts down there, i had to buy many different sized bolts. They were either too small, too big, or stripping the screw and not grabbing a solid tight connection. So I just gave up


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

V8toilet said:


> It's not the wire. The ring terminal is too small and light and the guy who installed it used a #8 self tapping screw, which is no good. It should have been bolted with a real bolt to an area that is solid and cleaned of the paint and the proper gauge ring terminal should have been used. The undersized ring terminal is heating up and burning the insulation where it touches because it's causing too much resistance. This is also why your amp is shutting down because of the voltage drop.


I already found two new locations. Both on the chassis, both sanded down to pure metal and ready to be screwed down. 4 gauge wire, with a ring terminal big enough to get drilled down with a bolt


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

bobduch said:


> 4 gauge 15 ft long will handle 131 amps (source bcae) with a 1/2 volt dropYopu are talking 3 ft.
> You can stick to your 4 gauge. Make sure your wire to ring terminal connection is very tight.
> Do not use a zinc plated bolt or screw. That current ground location sucks because the seat is bolted down with zinc plated bolts among other reasons. The car "floor" behind or under the seat should work. As said, sand down paint and (I repeat myself) use a bolt or screw that is not zinc plated.


Why not use zinc plated bolts? Im gonna tell the shop to bolt it down under the seats


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

"most" vehicles if you look under the care at the spare tire well it is pretty clear underneath there. If you are having issues, bring a ring terminal to lowes and buy an 1 1/2 inch nut and bolt of the correct size. Drill a hole through the bottom of the spare tire well and bolt it through. Hit the under side with some truck bed coating if you are worried about it.

You don't NEED to bolt it through but if you are having all kinds of issues with bite then this method is pretty fool proof. Just check where you are drilling, don't hit a damn gas line or something.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> I already found two new locations. Both on the chassis, both sanded down to pure metal and ready to be screwed down. 4 gauge wire, with a ring terminal big enough to get drilled down with a bolt


Too little to late on my last post. Go for it, it would be "better" not to use a zinc plated bolt but 99% of your contact area will be the flat edge of the ring terminal touching bare metal. If zinc is all you have go for it.

The last ground was trying to pass current through a zinc plated bolt. Your new ground will not.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

REGULARCAB said:


> "most" vehicles if you look under the care at the spare tire well it is pretty clear underneath there. If you are having issues, bring a ring terminal to lowes and buy an 1 1/2 inch nut and bolt of the correct size. Drill a hole through the bottom of the spare tire well and bolt it through. Hit the under side with some truck bed coating if you are worried about it.
> 
> You don't NEED to bolt it through but if you are having all kinds of issues with bite then this method is pretty fool proof. Just check where you are drilling, don't hit a damn gas line or something.


Thats what I tried to do, but the damn bolt would get like 80% in and then it would get stuck because the bolt being stripped. I couldn't find a perfect fitting bolt for the existing holes on the chassis. So it would be jerking around and loose, and I know I can't leave it like that so I just left it alone


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

GoodMusic said:


> Why not use zinc plated bolts? Im gonna tell the shop to bolt it down under the seats


Years and years ago I bought a zinc plated screw (zinc plated were the highest rated strength) at HD for my ground. Ground was the floor behind center console in Honda Odyssey. Had all kinds of noise that varied, for example, by moving the (at the time) passive x-overs around. Just bizarre. Friend of mine is helping me figure it out and he sees zinc plated screw (yes, it was tight, shiny metal etc.) and says he heard "somewhere" that they can cause problems. Go back to HD. Get regular screw. Put it in and noise completely gone. Same hole. We even then put zinc screw back in. Noise appears again. So back goes the new screw. Lycan (Werewolf in the old ECA days) gave me the very technical reasons (which I can't remember, old man that I am) how the zinc plating messes things up and says he is not surprised at all that a regular screw solved the problem. Seat belt bolts are typically zinc plated (the strength thing again) which is why they should not be used. I know someone is going to flame saying they use them with no problem. Good for them. I'm just telling you what happened to me and was satisfied with Jeff's explanation to know I will never use a zinc plated screw/bolt again.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

bobduch said:


> Years and years ago I bought a zinc plated screw (zinc plated were the highest rated strength) at HD for my ground. Ground was the floor behind center console in Honda Odyssey. Had all kinds of noise that varied, for example, by moving the (at the time) passive x-overs around. Just bizarre. Friend of mine is helping me figure it out and he sees zinc plated screw (yes, it was tight, shiny metal etc.) and says he heard "somewhere" that they can cause problems. Go back to HD. Get regular screw. Put it in and noise completely gone. Same hole. We even then put zinc screw back in. Noise appears again. So back goes the new screw. Lycan (Werewolf in the old ECA days) gave me the very technical reasons (which I can't remember, old man that I am) how the zinc plating messes things up and says he is not surprised at all that a regular screw solved the problem. Seat belt bolts are typically zinc plated (the strength thing again) which is why they should not be used. I know someone is going to flame saying they use them with no problem. Good for them. I'm just telling you what happened to me and was satisfied with Jeff's explanation to know I will never use a zinc plated screw/bolt again.


Well all the ones I bought were zinc plated.. I guess it doesn't hurt to buy stainless steel or something


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

GoodMusic said:


> Well all the ones I bought were zinc plated.. I guess it doesn't hurt to buy stainless steel or something


Jeff, who explained this, was a founder of Silicon Labs and digital guru. And the smartest person to ever appear on a car audio forum IMHO.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

bobduch said:


> Jeff, who explained this, was a founder of Silicon Labs and digital guru. And the smartest person to ever appear on a car audio forum IMHO.


Im going to take some quick pictures of the new locations so you see what I'm talking about


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

bobduch said:


> Jeff, who explained this, was a founder of Silicon Labs and digital guru. And the smartest person to ever appear on a car audio forum IMHO.






























Those are the two options I have to ground, along with the new 4 gauge wire and its ring terminal


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

Try one!


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

bobduch said:


> Try one!


I tried. The bolt would go about 80% in and get stuck. And once it was all the way in, it would be loose. Since theres not nut or washer holding it on the bottom side...


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

on a tight fitting bolt, you cannot expect sheet metal to form a thread that will hold any kind of pressure.

It "is" possible to use a small drill hole, and with a punch widen the hole such that the steel forms a lip, which is then used as a shoulder for a thread formation, but that doesn't always work that great either. It's better than what you've got there, though.

The problem seems to be your inability to put a nut on the back of the ground bolt.


why is that?


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

cajunner said:


> on a tight fitting bolt, you cannot expect sheet metal to form a thread that will hold any kind of pressure.
> 
> It "is" possible to use a small drill hole, and with a punch widen the hole such that the steel forms a lip, which is then used as a shoulder for a thread formation, but that doesn't always work that great either. It's better than what you've got there, though.
> 
> ...


No space to fit my finger through there.....lol


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

GoodMusic said:


> No space to fit my finger through there.....lol




http://i.seimg.net/images/715866/small/gt14.jpg


can you drill small holes?


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

cajunner said:


> http://i.seimg.net/images/715866/small/gt14.jpg
> 
> 
> can you drill small holes?


I could try. But once again, if I drill the holes, it might just be lose like before. Once those screw/bolts get through, theirs nothing holding em down

they're just there


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## Brotherali (Aug 29, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> I could try. But once again, if I drill the holes, it might just be lose like before. Once those screw/bolts get through, theirs nothing holding em down
> 
> they're just there


And what is your reason for not using a nut and bolt at a different location like under the spare tire like someone else said?


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## reath1 (Apr 15, 2014)

GoodMusic said:


> I could try. But once again, if I drill the holes, it might just be lose like before. Once those screw/bolts get through, theirs nothing holding em down
> 
> they're just there


I've never had a Honda but I am positive it has to have bolts holding the seats down. Put a ring terminal on that and call it done.


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## Brotherali (Aug 29, 2013)

reath1 said:


> I've never had a Honda but I am positive it has to have bolts holding the seats down. Put a ring terminal on that and call it done.


Not bad advice. OP does the cable already reach the bolt? Try it even without sanding just as a test, if everything sounds good then grind it done and call it done. 

The guy talking about zinc bolt probably has a point but from what I have read it doesnt seem to be a common problem. 

In my accord (96) there is a 10mm bolt holding the bench down, I would use the large belt bolts over the small 10mm bolt, if it does not fit the bolt you can carefully drill the thermal to make it larger.


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

reath1 said:


> I've never had a Honda but I am positive it has to have bolts holding the seats down. Put a ring terminal on that and call it done.


Im gonna go look outside in about 10 minutes, and see what I find. I couldn't find any bolts holding down the seats. Only clips did. Besides the seat metal bracket, i couldn't find anything


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## Brotherali (Aug 29, 2013)

GoodMusic said:


> Im gonna go look outside in about 10 minutes, and see what I find. I couldn't find any bolts holding down the seats. Only clips did. Besides the seat metal bracket, i couldn't find anything


Just PM'd you a link to 2008-2010 honda service manual. It has everything you could want to know, just look around in it. Thats how I figured out how to get the rear bench out of my accord, it was a bolt and kind of hard to find if you dont know where to look


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

I found a great grounding location, grounded the amp and finished installing it. I got the most stable readings I've ever gotten on my volt meter 

It was good for a good 10 minutes, and then it completely powered off. No protection light, just completed powered off. My first reaction was to check the fuse at the battery, turns out its blown. 

Now 2 questions, 

1) IF it blew while those 10 minutes I just finished testing, all I gotta do is replace the fuse at the battery correct? My amp should be fine right?

2) If the fuse at the battery is blown, the amp should not work correct?

Im scared my amp might be friend, but positive connection and ground never touched. Everything is clean and solid


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

Brotherali said:


> Just PM'd you a link to 2008-2010 honda service manual. It has everything you could want to know, just look around in it. Thats how I figured out how to get the rear bench out of my accord, it was a bolt and kind of hard to find if you dont know where to look


I found a location right near the rear speakers. Its like on the upper frame of the car


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

It almost looks like he used a blow torch and solder. I'm not sure what the heck he did... Not likely out of laziness, just lack of knowledge... 

Just re-run it properly. Hopefully your amp hasn't gone into protection mode too many times that it's damaged it.


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## Brotherali (Aug 29, 2013)

mmiller said:


> It almost looks like he used a blow torch and solder. I'm not sure what the heck he did... Not likely out of laziness, just lack of knowledge...
> 
> Just re-run it properly. Hopefully your amp hasn't gone into protection mode too many times that it's damaged it.


There is nothing wrong with a torch and solder, its how alot of people do 0 awg. Alot of bassheads do it too and they need all the power they can get


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Not to sound rude, but Some of those "BassHeads" installs are a fire hazard the wiring job is so ****ty. Exposed terminals aand wires everywhere, none of it secured, on and on... Not saying all of them are like that, a lot of the installs are executed EXTREMLY well........ Check out some of the Basshead videos on YouTube, you'll see what I mean.

Regardless, you are right there's nothing wrong with it, if someone's put some thought into it. One would think it's probably a good idea to use shrink wrap over the wire and terminal.. Maybe even possibly use a wire wheel to clean the debris off the terminal...


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

Changed the fuse at the battery, cleaned up the installation and they're good now


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

GoodMusic said:


> Changed the fuse at the battery, cleaned up the installation and they're good now


Everything working ok now?


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## GoodMusic (Jun 11, 2014)

mmiller said:


> Everything working ok now?


I took it to a shop to get everything checked out and make sure everything is in working out. They swapped out the fuse and everything was A OK.

I think the fuse was a little on the small side from the previous installation. So hopefully we're good now!! 

Thanks for asking and helping, to everyone else who helped as well! Id buy you all a beer if I could


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