# Lacking midbass in new install



## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Original stock system (97' Porsche Boxster)
- 4" and tweets in the dash and 5.25" woofers in the doors

New system

Kenwood DDX8706S receiver with EQ and crossovers
Morel Virtus 502 (5.25") components (midbass in doors and tweets in dash)
Tru T4.65 running FP (full pass) and letting passives do the filtering
Doors are deadened with second skin

I think I have the crossovers set to off in the HU settings? With the EQ setting on flat, the sound is super thin. I tried all the other presets (pop, rock, jazz, top40, etc...) and none sounded decent at all. So I created a user profile and bumped up the mid-range and mid-bass bands and the sound got better, but no where near what I was expecting to hear. If you have EQ setting as "flat" does that mean the HU is sending the full range to the amp?

I've never run a head unit with EQ/crossovers before, so I'm not sure I'm setting things up correctly. I'm thinking the poor sound is due to user error because the components are decent and should at least sound better than stock.

Any suggestion or thought would be greatly appreciated!


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

You have 5.25” mids, which are only good down to about 100hz, and no subwoofer, so it makes sense that you have no midbass. You need some bigger speakers that can play low frequencies.

A 4” paired with a 5.25” is redundant, and neither are capable of midbass.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

gijoe said:


> You have 5.25” mids, which are only good down to about 100hz, and no subwoofer, so it makes sense that you have no midbass. You need some bigger speakers that can play low frequencies.
> 
> A 4” paired with a 5.25” is redundant, and neither are capable of midbass.


Thanks for the feedback. The 5.25" stock driver did produce mid-bass, not sure how, but they did. It's not redundant if the 5.25 " was part of a 3-way. Of course I'm not expecting crazy mid-bass, just the absence of it has me confused, that's why I'm thinking it might be a setting on the head unit I'm missing or have dialed in wrong.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

The Virtus is supposed to go down to 65hz, so I should be hearing some low frequencies, right?


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

runmeshaw said:


> Thanks for the feedback. The 5.25" stock driver did produce mid-bass, not sure how, but they did. It's not redundant if the 5.25 " was part of a 3-way. Of course I'm not expecting crazy mid-bass, just the absence of it has me confused, that's why I'm thinking it might be a setting on the head unit I'm missing or have dialed in wrong.


Sometimes when you move away from factory speakers, the perception is you have lost some midbass. This can be because as you mentioned you treated your doors so vibrations and rattles may not be present, which can get perceived as bass. The new speakers and set up may also have less distortion, when can also be perceived as bass in a door. Also and I dont know this specifically for you car. Was there some enclosure with the factory speaker? If so, that enclosure may have helped the smaller stock drivers. 

Back in the day, I ran a really good set of JBL 504gti comps. They were known to do midbass really well and even then 80hz was push. As noted, most 5.25 speakers are probably only good to 80 to 100hz.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

To answer your question, yes setting as "flat" means exactly what it sounds like. The signal will have no eq applied. Check the crossover settings on the outputs again. Make sure that on the 5.25" speakers that you have the HPF (High Pass Filter) set to "off" or the slope of the HPF set to "off" or it's lowest setting (-6db) if off is not an option. If that is good to go and you still have no bass, try using the EQ bands (62.5/100) available on the head unit and up them to get some more of the low end you need. Your 5.25" drivers can only do so much but this should help a bit. 
The real solution though would be to add a subwoofer to provide that low end that a 5.25" speaker simply cannot provide.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Im running the 6.5 inch virtus set and they need a lot of power to sound good. The passives are 2200 so its kinda low for the tweeter. i have 300 watts to each side. I had 150 watts on each side and the tweeters seemed really bright. needed a lot more tuning to sound decent. I was without a sub then too. Also the midbasses are smaller than any other midbass ive seen. The cone is anyway. Side by side with a set of jl c5 midbass the morel look significantly smaller. I cant imagine how small the 5.25 are.


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## syc0path (Jan 23, 2013)

Could be a phase issue between the 5.25s and the 4's. Temporarily disconnect the 4's and see if the midbass improves.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

runmeshaw said:


> The Virtus is supposed to go down to 65hz, so I should be hearing some low frequencies, right?


They won't play that low at any reasonable volume. A good 6.5", which is bigger, and better suited for midbass, will only play down to about 80hz. You can't expect much more than about 100hz from a speaker that small. You should be hearing some low frequencies, but low in this case means about 100hz.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Bottom line I guess is I need to add a sub to the system to get adequate midbass and low bass. I will take it to the shop and see if they can help me confirm the proper setting for the HU.

Are the JVC slim/shallow sub/amp units any good? There's limited space in the Boxster and I'm not sure if using a sub in the front or rear trunk would be best or maybe a shallow sub/amp unit behind the driver or passenger seat?









JVC CW-DRA8


Compact powered subwoofer: 150 watts and an 8" sub




www.crutchfield.com


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I would recommend against the JVC units. Does your shop sell JL Audio? If so, look at one of their slim solutions. Their TW1/Tw3/Tw5 line is pretty solid for slim subs. They will make you happy.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

runmeshaw said:


> ...
> ... There's limited space in the Boxster and I'm not sure if using a sub in the front or rear trunk would be best or maybe a shallow sub/amp unit behind the driver or passenger seat?
> ...


Most people put the sub in the rear and having it on the firewall of front engine car would be dumb.
I am not sure that your car fits that description?

While 15, 18 and 24" subwoofers are appealing, there are also 8" and 10" units which may be better suited to your car.

I would not be looking at sub amps, until you find a spot for the speaker(s) and which speakers to actually use. There could be some challenge in that task.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

captainobvious said:


> I would recommend against the JVC units. Does your shop sell JL Audio? If so, look at one of their slim solutions. Their TW1/Tw3/Tw5 line is pretty solid for slim subs. They will make you happy.


Not familiar with the TW1 but between the TW3/TW5, I’d go with the TW3 every time unless the TW5 is the only thing that will fit since it is thinner. The TW3 has 15mm of excursion while the TW5 only has 10mm of excursion. Large output difference between those based on excursion.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

captainobvious said:


> I would recommend against the JVC units. Does your shop sell JL Audio? If so, look at one of their slim solutions. Their TW1/Tw3/Tw5 line is pretty solid for slim subs. They will make you happy.


I am looking at the JL Audio powered subs. I have about 5-6 inches of clearance behind the passenger seat. Was wondering which to choose from, the 10" sealed or the 8" ported?

Thanks for the suggestions on sound processing, I played with the EQ/crossovers and now the sound is decent. It sounds bright right now, so hopefully adding a sub will help take it to the warmer and fuller side of things. Also I should be getting my Butler 2150 amp back from repair soon so maybe that will help better power the Morel components.


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## hankhowdy1 (Jul 21, 2016)

Doesn’t the 5.25 in this car sit in an enclosure? Could have sworn it did. If that is the case, then that could explain lack of bass. The QTS is high on a morel mid woofer because it’s designed for an IB application. 


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

hankhowdy1 said:


> Doesn’t the 5.25 in this car sit in an enclosure? Could have sworn it did. If that is the case, then that could explain lack of bass. The QTS is high on a morel mid woofer because it’s designed for an IB application.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Crap I think you are right, that could be why the stock woofers hit harder because they were designed for the small cavity. Oh well,maybe I will look for more suitable woofers in the future, for now I'm going to see if placing an 8 or 10" sub behind the passenger seat can help fill in the low end void.


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## hankhowdy1 (Jul 21, 2016)

runmeshaw said:


> Crap I think you are right, that could be why the stock woofers hit harder because they were designed for the small cavity. Oh well,maybe I will look for more suitable woofers in the future, for now I'm going to see if placing an 8 or 10" sub behind the passenger seat can help fill in the low end void.


It will help the sub bass, but not midbass. If you raise the lpf on the sub say 120hz or higher, this will move your sound stage be hide you and mess up imaging. 

See ifs possible to vent the small enclosures. 

How old are the morel drivers?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

this may not help, but here goes.

Been doing this for 30 years. I have used 5.25", 6.5" and recently 8" midbass in the doors. will never go with anything smaller than 8" again. the impact that am 8" has on midbass is amazing. well worth making it fit.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I agree. Larger drivers snap the air more while smaller drivers push the air more to reach the same output. Put another way, to reach the same output level, the smaller (cone) driver has to move more, say 3 mm compared to the larger driver that may only have to move 2 mm. So the larger driver gives more snap. I've used 12" and 15" midbass drivers in my home theater and the feeling in the chest with larger midbass drivers is amazing and an improvement over smaller drivers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Lol

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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Are the doors sealed?

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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

hankhowdy1 said:


> It will help the sub bass, but not midbass. If you raise the lpf on the sub say 120hz or higher, this will move your sound stage be hide you and mess up imaging.
> 
> See ifs possible to vent the small enclosures.
> 
> ...


By venting, you mean to cut the entire section behind the magnet? The Virtus drivers are new.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

minbari said:


> this may not help, but here goes.
> 
> Been doing this for 30 years. I have used 5.25", 6.5" and recently 8" midbass in the doors. will never go with anything smaller than 8" again. the impact that am 8" has on midbass is amazing. well worth making it fit.


I have read some posts that say fitting an 8" is possible, but requires significant modification. However I think 6.5" are doable. But even with the 6.5" I would still need to vent due to the small enclosure/QTS issue and get a sub for the low bass?


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## hankhowdy1 (Jul 21, 2016)

runmeshaw said:


> By venting, you mean to cut the entire section behind the magnet? The Virtus drivers are new.


I don’t know where to make a vent. I’m saying maybe venting it would allow for more cone movement to help with the high qts. 

If the drivers are new, they will break in and make more midbass. 




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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> Lol


Are you laughing about my comment with larger drivers giving more midbass slam than smaller drivers? I didn’t notice between 6 and 8s but with 12“ and 15” midbasses ala home theater, it really is apparent the larger drivers have more chest impact with the same volume output.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

hankhowdy1 said:


> I don’t know where to make a vent. I’m saying maybe venting it would allow for more cone movement to help with the high qts.
> 
> If the drivers are new, they will break in and make more midbass.


The problem is midbass is like a subwoofer and needs cone area and excursion to make the necessary deep bass and midbass waves. You need to match the driver to the setup such as IB for a door or a driver designed for sealed enclosures. But if you vent, you may be giving the driver more of what it needs but you’re still working with a 5.25” cone that I don’t know if it will be big enough to get you the midbass you want.

And the suspension may loosen some but not enough to have an appreciable difference in the amount of midbass you’ll get.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Odd.... I run sealed 5.25" Wavecor in my sedan along with a pair of IB 8". In my truck are a pair of 8" ZR800 mated to a sealed 10"HO. Both sound pretty good (my hearing of course), albeit there's some obvious differences. Still, I don't have an issue with upfront bass and all of this other whatever in either vehicle

Here's the thing about sealed mids which makes me wonder how many have actually tried this vs just playing the numbers game and are assuming.... playing them in an actual sealed box results in a fairly different bottom end than IB in a door. I definitely don't have mine crossed at 120hz. However, you can still get a bad blend regardless of how capable the mids are if ALL drivers in the setup aren't properly crossed and equalized to match each other. That includes detuning the most capable drivers rather than extracting the most just because they can do it. 


What is apparent.... wrong application will get you every time. Are those mids in an actual sealed enclosure? What's the measured response before applying a HPF? 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Bayboy said:


> What is apparent.... wrong application will get you every time. Are those mids in an actual sealed enclosure? What's the measured response before applying a HPF?
> 
> Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


The mids are in sealed enclosures that sit at the bottom of the door panel. I haven't measured anything yet, maybe I'll ask the shop if they can help. Only way to get midbass was to bump up the EQ bands 64 and 100Hz, but it just doesn't sound natural. Flat response sounds terrible, super anemic. The system sounds very bright and I doubt that's what Morels are supposed to sound like. I've attenuated the tweeter on the passives to -2db and also on the xover settings of the HU to help tame the harshness. I listen to music at medium to higher volume levels.

Do we have any Porsche Boxster owners here that could chime in?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

They'll need better tuning but just might not be able to do what the stock ones were capable of. Without knowing how the stock drives were designed to play, it was a guessing game on upgrading. 

By no means am I suggesting that stock cant be improved upon, but perhaps the Morel aren't the ones to do it since they're designed to be a part of a bigger system. I would think the shop looked into that before taking the job on. That said, you might be looking at a redo or return to stock if you're not willing to add a sub. 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

OK. 64 hz is not mid-bass. It is sub-bass. Generally, sub-bass is everything under 100 hz. Your mid-bass drivers shouldn't be playing anything under 80 hz. Not counting anything attenuated.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

F150Man said:


> OK. 64 hz is not mid-bass. It is sub-bass. Generally, sub-bass is everything under 100 hz. Your mid-bass drivers shouldn't be playing anything under 80 hz. Not counting anything attenuated.


Then maybe my 5.25" drivers aren't doing the 100-200mhz region any justice in the factory enclosures. Right now the only crossing over I have is at the passives. I think I need a sub regardless of what I decide on the door woofers. But do i need to have an 8" sub in the front, by the passenger foot-well or console, or can I place a slim JL 10" powered sub behind the passenger rear seat? I don't want the image to drift towards the back. I was looking at these options.

Do you think the sound will get warmer after I introduce a sub? Maybe I can go with the front option and cross it over in the higher mid-bass region?


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Bayboy said:


> They'll need better tuning but just might not be able to do what the stock ones were capable of. Without knowing how the stock drives were designed to play, it was a guessing game on upgrading.
> 
> By no means am I suggesting that stock cant be improved upon, but perhaps the Morel aren't the ones to do it since they're designed to be a part of a bigger system. I would think the shop looked into that before taking the job on. That said, you might be looking at a redo or return to stock if you're not willing to add a sub.
> 
> Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


I'm definitely bummed out at this point. I am willing to add a sub, but don't know if I should stick it in the front or the rear. 8" in the front or 10" in the rear behind passenger seat. And what crossover point should I be considering.

The shop I took it to didn't take the stock enclosure into account when helping me select speakers. I guess I went to the wrong place. Though they did do a decent job on the install.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

If it sounded better before the upgrade, then that sort of points to something not being right.
I would be starting with getting what you have working before upgrading again.

The first task would be to see what is going to the amp, and whether those frequencies are diminished or not.

Many home speakers play down to 20 or 30 Hz, just not overly loudly. If there is no low frequency content supplied to the amp, then the speakers will not have it. So it is best done by working from one end to the other in some methodological way.

Tones and a DMM, plus pen and paper, could work for what is going out the RCAs that head to the amp. An oscilloscope provide a similar picture of what is happening.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

dgage said:


> I agree. Larger drivers snap the air more while smaller drivers push the air more to reach the same output. Put another way, to reach the same output level, the smaller (cone) driver has to move more, say 3 mm compared to the larger driver that may only have to move 2 mm. So the larger driver gives more snap. I've used 12" and 15" midbass drivers in my home theater and the feeling in the chest with larger midbass drivers is amazing and an improvement over smaller drivers.


Nick probably did the "lol" because "Push the Air" and "Snap the Air" are not real differences. Speakers don't "snap the air". Tuning is the difference. Can an 8" deliver more midbass over a 6"? Sure it can as it has more cone area. But what you are referring to is a product of tuning, not the size of the speaker.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Holmz said:


> If it sounded better before the upgrade, then that sort of points to something not being right.
> I would be starting with getting what you have working before upgrading again.
> 
> The first task would be to see what is going to the amp, and whether those frequencies are diminished or not.
> ...


I should definitely get it measured properly, but the shop set up the head unit so that it sent a full unadulterated signal to the amp (flat EQ - no crossiver from HU). I think the problem lies in the stock woofer enclosure which doesn't mate well with the Morels.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

runmeshaw said:


> I should definitely get it measured properly, but the shop set up the head unit so that it sent a full unadulterated signal to the amp (flat EQ - no crossiver from HU). I think the problem lies in the stock woofer enclosure which doesn't mate well with the Morels.


That sounds reasonable as a theory.

However people make mistakes and we do not know for sure whether there is an attenuated set of bass notes going to the woofers or not.

This makes knowing what is actually being presented to the amps a decent first step before moving to a solution that would not help if the signals are missing.

But it could also be a waste of time... so it is up to you.

Or... to say it differently... my theory is unproven.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

I decided to get the JL Audio powered 10" sub and installed it behind the passenger seat. It definitely added some much needed bass to fill out the sound and the highs are less harsh now. Overall I'm happy, but I was hoping to get better bang for the bucks I spent. I get my Butler tube amp back in a few weeks and it outputs double the power of the TRU, so hopefully the power hungry Morels will sing a bit better.

Thanks to all that chimed in with their comments and suggestions!


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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

Have you included the sub in the time alignment ? What are the crossover settings now for midbass and sub ?


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

I tried installing foam baffles behind my 6.5 woofers to keep them protected in the door, but it killed all the midbass in the 80-120 hz area.

That may be what is happening; these new speakers do not like to be in small sealed enclosures.

Do the factory enclosures come apart at all?
If not, maybe you can test another mounting solution temporarily where the door acts as the enclosure.

But in that case, the door should be as well sealed as possible to eliminate front / back wave interference.

You may have to bite the bullet and modify the enclosures and seal the front side to the door somehow.

I don't agree with other comments about sub interaction.
The sub should not really be playing much above 60hz.
The mid woofers should have solid output 70hz and up by themselves.

Time alignment doesn't come into play without multiple drivers. If one midbass playing by itself is not reproducing decent midbass, it's an install / driver choice issue.



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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

I tool my baffles off the door speakers and installed fastrings and the midbass volume increased ALOT. 
I disagree about crossing the mids so low. 80-100 is great. Anything below 100 is for subwoofers.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

F150Man said:


> I tool my baffles off the door speakers and installed fastrings and the midbass volume increased ALOT.
> I disagree about crossing the mids so low. 80-100 is great. Anything below 100 is for subwoofers.


Bass becomes locatable around 80hz.
Anything above that coming from the sub will start pulling the soundstage away from the front plane, causing inaccuracies.

That's a main reason THX certifies 80hz as the preferred crossover fore home theater systems.

My midbass drivers are set to 80 hz and sub set to 63hz.
With the right slopes they blend perfectly and the soundstage remains intact.

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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

All my sub bass sounds like it is coming straight out of the headunit in the dash. 80 hz LP with -24db LR. I have strong loud midbass from the doors. 100 hz HP same crossover.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

F150Man said:


> All my sub bass sounds like it is coming straight out of the headunit in the dash. 80 hz LP with -24db LR. I have strong loud midbass from the doors. 100 hz HP same crossover.


Well, you may think it sounds good.
But having the drivers installed and tuned correctly so they reach down to 80hz would sound better.

Science proves it.

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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

F150Man said:


> Have you included the sub in the time alignment ? What are the crossover settings now for midbass and sub ?


I didn't play with any time alignment from the head unit, mainly because I'm not sure how to set that up properly. I have the fronts high passed at 80/12db from the head unit and then the passives take over from there. The sub is LP at 80hz as well with 12db slope from the head unit and at the JL powered sub the crossover settings are the same.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> I tried installing foam baffles behind my 6.5 woofers to keep them protected in the door, but it killed all the midbass in the 80-120 hz area.
> 
> That may be what is happening; these new speakers do not like to be in small sealed enclosures.
> 
> ...


I think the enclosures are solid and I'm not sure if they can come apart without modification (attached a pic).


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Well, you may think it sounds good.
> But having the drivers installed and tuned correctly so they reach down to 80hz would sound better.
> 
> Science proves it.
> ...


Are you taking into account cabin gain that may sometimes boost certain frequencies too much? For his install, especially for someone that is at least fairly knowledgeable as F150Man is, I’m sure he tried 80 to 80 crossovers and settled on the gap as what sounded best to him. I wouldn’t necessarily use science to say he’s wrong, especially when he might be able to provide measurements that show his system works best with a crossover gap.

I tell people that crossover points are recommendations and gaps/overlap and crossover slopes should be tried to determine what sounds best in a particular install as rarely are two the same.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

The measurements tell one story yes, but how our ears start to locate the direction of bass at what frequency will not be evident in the measurements.

OP is asking how to get better mid-bass out of the door speakers. IMO, making the sub play higher to compensate would be a band-aid fix at best.

Tackle the lack of midbass from the speakers first, then make up for it if you have to, that's my theory.

Why not try to make the best of both worlds?

The answer that it's just good enough and compensate with the sub doesn't jive with me.

Why not try to improve the speaker response?

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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

We’re 3 pages in so I don’t know what the OPs situation is at this point and what has been done to mitigate his issue. You quoted F150Man and made a blanket statement that science says he is wrong. I don’t buy that, not for a car environment.

Our ears roughly localize 80Hz and above this point we can usually identify the direction the sound waves are coming from. However, a car‘s cabin gain for most vehicles is in the lower midbass/upper subbass due to those frequencies being the right length to be held in the cabin better. So due to the smaller size, the localization of frequencies can happen a little higher, between 100-200Hz depending on the vehicle. DSP, which F150Man has, can affect this some as well. And just to be clear, I’m not saying you can run a midbass from behind you and be okay. 

In a room, the room gain happens with deeper bass where the deeper bass waves are kept in the room. But even with below 80Hz not being easily located, if you have only 1 sub in a room, you’ll likely get uneven bass such that if you walk to the center it may have less bass while the corners will likely have more. I recommend to my customers to have multiple subs to even out the bass, with 4 being the best as more subs will have minimal improvement.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

runmeshaw said:


> I think the enclosures are solid and I'm not sure if they can come apart without modification (attached a pic).


They might do better with an opening into the rear of the door, but maybe not. The factory speakers you had probably had a decent bump in the mid bass region, whereas the aftermarket do not.

Not sure if you want to modify them to try that or not.

To set time alignment correct between sub and midbass, first reverse the phase of the sub. 

Sit in the listening position and play a sine wav tone in the center frequency between filters on the mids / sub, 80hz?

Adjust the sub distance until the tone becomes the quietest spot, and almost disappears.

That's the correct setting.

Then flip the phase on the sub back to normal.

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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

dgage said:


> We’re 3 pages in so I don’t know what the OPs situation is at this point and what has been done to mitigate his issue. You quoted F150Man and made a blanket statement that science says he is wrong. I don’t buy that, not for a car environment.
> 
> Our ears roughly localize 80Hz and above this point we can usually identify the direction the sound waves are coming from. However, a car‘s cabin gain for most vehicles is in the lower midbass/upper subbass due to those frequencies being the right length to be held in the cabin better. So due to the smaller size, the localization of frequencies can happen a little higher, between 100-200Hz depending on the vehicle. DSP, which F150Man has, can affect this some as well. And just to be clear, I’m not saying you can run a midbass from behind you and be okay.
> 
> In a room, the room gain happens with deeper bass where the deeper bass waves are kept in the room. But even with below 80Hz not being easily located, if you have only 1 sub in a room, you’ll likely get uneven bass such that if you walk to the center it may have less bass while the corners will likely have more. I recommend to my customers to have multiple subs to even out the bass, with 4 being the best as more subs will have minimal improvement.


Nothing has been done to mitigate the issue, other than to play with the head unit crossover settings. Sounds like the issue is with the Morels and their need for a more optimal enclosure. I'm not sure how to close that gap if I can't modify the enclosure, maybe look for a 5.25" that does well in a small sealed enclosure? Adding a 10" sub behind the passenger seat did fill out the sound, I'm sure there's still a big gap but at least now the highs aren't so prominent and piercing.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> They might do better with an opening into the rear of the door, but maybe not. The factory speakers you had probably had a decent bump in the mid bass region, whereas the aftermarket do not.
> 
> Not sure if you want to modify them to try that or not.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed info, I will try that out, never hurts to try so long as I can get it back to original settings.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Bass becomes locatable around 80hz.
> Anything above that coming from the sub will start pulling the soundstage away from the front plane, causing inaccuracies.
> 
> That's a main reason THX certifies 80hz as the preferred crossover fore home theater systems.
> ...





Ifixtheinternet said:


> Well, you may think it sounds good.
> But having the drivers installed and tuned correctly so they reach down to 80hz would sound better.
> 
> Science proves it.


Most of the science says that it is closer to 200 Hz as being localizable.
Having high a subwoofer wiping harmonic distortion, then makes bandpassing the sub lower, also makes the harmonics go lower.

There is a bunch of stuff happening, which is all wrapped together.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Well looks like I'm seriously being overuled!

This is something I always thought to be true and never heard before, now everyone's telling me!

I've always associated room gain with increased SPL due to smaller spaces. It doesn't quite make sense to me why that would make the bass appear to be in front of you. Is it just because of the reflections off of all surfaces in the vehicle, so it seems to come from everywhere?

Always something to learn.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> ...
> This is something I always thought to be true and never heard before, now everyone's telling me!
> ...


Being a majority doesn't mean we are right.

Just a few people have read up the research.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Lol, my subwoofers are acoustically crossed at 130hz 24db, and you’d be hard pressed to recognize anything coming from the rear. Below 150hz is extremely hard to differentiate left vs right.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> I've always associated room gain with increased SPL due to smaller spaces. It doesn't quite make sense to me why that would make the bass appear to be in front of you. Is it just because of the reflections off of all surfaces in the vehicle, so it seems to come from everywhere?


I think some of it may be the smaller confines of the car that keep the upper bass waves inside such that it is harder to localize when tuned correctly. Related to above, it may also be due to so much reflected sound energy in a fairly small space that may overwhelm the ear such that they can’t quite figure out where the sound waves are coming from until a little higher than normal. The time alignment with DSP is also pretty good at playing tricks on people.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

User2 said:


> No, its biological. The lower the source frequency, the less our wetware is able to locate the source. It's called sound localization.
> 
> 
> *"Evaluation for low frequencies*
> ...


Sorry I should have been more specific with that question.

I thought the theory here was that the frequency at which you can begin to localize bass is much higher in a small space like a vehicle, as opposed to a large space like a home theater room.

I think Dgage understood what I was asking.

I need to go do some testing now since I put my foot in my mouth lol.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> ...
> I need to go do some testing now since I put my foot in my mouth lol.
> ...


What kind of testing?


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Holmz said:


> What kind of testing?


Sweep frequencies left to right with sine wav tones, to see how low I get before I cannot tell any difference. I seem to recall being able to balance down to at least 125hz and hear it moving left to right.

But now I have to revisit it to be sure.

This might be more useful in the living room since my towers go down to 40hz.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Wow that was interesting.

I created mono wave tones with audacity in 5hz increments from 120hz down to 40hz.

I set my tower speakers to full range and turned the sub off.
I set my HTPC and AVR to stereo mode and sat front and center in the listening position.

Pulled up the balance control in Windows so I could drop off the left speaker, then the right to see if I could hear where it was coming from.

I could clearly hear which direction the sound was coming from, down to 50hz.

The 45 and 40hz tones were the only 2 that sounded the same to me whether they were coming from the left or right speaker, except a volume difference due to the different responses from each speaker in the room.

I think I've just proved my point even more than I thought I would.

The real test will be to let (force) the wife to come home and do the balance for me with my eyes closed to prove it.
















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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

User2 said:


> Awesome! Now, leave the room, have (force) your wife to move the speakers around in the room, then lead you in with your eyes closed, spin you around a few times in a spinny chair, then perform the experiment again. Do that a few times and record your success rate.


Challenge accepted.

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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

HAHAHA


Ifixtheinternet said:


> Well, you may think it sounds good.
> But having the drivers installed and tuned correctly so they reach down to 80hz would sound better.
> 
> Science proves it.
> ...


HAHAHA
I have 2 subs and 2 midbass that are "reaching down" LOL to 80 hz. WTF DUDE


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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Well looks like I'm seriously being overuled!
> 
> This is something I always thought to be true and never heard before, now everyone's telling me!
> 
> ...


I got the time alignment correct Dude ! I got the crossover settings correct Dude ! I got my 3 way component selection correct Dude ! I got my sub stage correct Dude ! That's why my **** sounds better than yours Dude !


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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Wow that was interesting.
> 
> I created mono wave tones with audacity in 5hz increments from 120hz down to 40hz.
> 
> ...


None of that mumbo jumbo in your house has much to do with any of the mumbo jumbo in our vehicle cabins Dude !


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

F150Man said:


> None of that mumbo jumbo in your house has much to do with any of the mumbo jumbo in our vehicle cabins Dude !


Well, I think it would be quite something to know you in person. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

F150Man said:


> I got the time alignment correct Dude ! I got the crossover settings correct Dude ! I got my 3 way component selection correct Dude ! I got my sub stage correct Dude ! That's why my **** sounds better than yours Dude !


Maybe. But since I haven't sat in your vehicle and I know you haven't sat in mine, we can't be sure. 

Post your measurements DUDE!

And, let me get this straight.
You have a 3 way, so you must have midbass drivers.
Those only go down to 100hz?

Sounds like ********, or you did not, in fact, set it up correctly.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Sweep frequencies left to right with sine wav tones, to see how low I get before I cannot tell any difference. I seem to recall being able to balance down to at least 125hz and hear it moving left to right.
> 
> But now I have to revisit it to be sure.
> 
> This might be more useful in the living room since my towers go down to 40hz.


What are the level of the harmonics from the sub?
And secondly our ears do better localising with impulses than with continuous waves.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Holmz said:


> What are the level of the harmonics from the sub?
> And secondly our ears do better localising with impulses than with continuous waves.


Noted.
The sub was off.

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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Noted.
> The sub was off.


I mean you need something like an REW trace to see if 60Hz has 120, 180, 240, etc Hz...
As they all do, so it's a matter of how much.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Holmz said:


> I mean you need something like an REW trace to see if 60Hz has 120, 180, 240, etc Hz...
> As they all do, so it's a matter of how much.


Ok I see what you're saying.
The 2nd, 3rd ETC harmonics are what I'm localizing, not the fundamental.

That's a good question.
I'll have to find out, I do use REW.

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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

User2 said:


> I have a 3 way. Not yet installed. But my plan is my 8" RS225-4 will run 100/120 to 1k or so. Sub is a 15" low-end monster with subsonic set at 27 and lowpassed at 80. What's incorrect about that?


I just don't understand why you would make the sub play so high when you don't have to. With dedicated midbass drivers, especially 8", they will play cleanly lower than that. 

Seems like you'd get more impact up front in the 70-100 range with the midbass drivers covering that, rather than the sub.

I haven't had a 3 way, but that's what I've heard most people doing that are happy with it.

If there's a reason midbass drivers shouldn't play below 100hz, I'm ready to be enlightened.

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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Ok I see what you're saying.
> The 2nd, 3rd ETC harmonics are what I'm localizing, not the fundamental.
> 
> That's a good question.
> I'll have to find out, I do use REW.


I think Hanatsu posted a year or two ago that ported boxes have lower distortion than sealed.
We also know that bandpass boxes have low distortion, which also helps people smoke subs in bandpass boxes, because they do not hear the distortion.

These magic values we hear about with 60Hz, 63Hz, and 80Hz all seem to ignore the distortion of the specific sub woofer and its box... but as a general rule of thumb it is right more than it is wrong.

If one really wanted to play a sub at a higher frequency than is "normal" they may want to consider using a box with lower harmonic distortion than normal.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Well, I do run a sealed enclosure in the subie so it seems having the crossover lower is better for my system. 


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

An REW type of plot may be worthwhile to use to back that claim up?
Or it could explain why it sound better crossed over lower in your system.

Without that we just have to rely on generalisation, which are generalisation because they generally work most of the time.

If it sound good, then your system is done from a practical perspective, and theory is not going to do much productive.


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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Maybe. But since I haven't sat in your vehicle and I know you haven't sat in mine, we can't be sure.
> 
> Post your measurements DUDE!
> 
> ...


LMAO. Huh ? Really ? I am sure my midbass woofers in my doors will play lower than 100 hz, but yes, that is where I have them highpassed, and the 2 10" subs under the rear seat are lowpassed at 80 hz. How is that BS ? Seamless beautiful sound quality. MMM MMM MMM


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

I just wanted to say thanks to all the folks that chimed in on my midbass issue. After the first simple passive install failed to produce midbass in my Boxster, I tried to add a subwoofer to help add some low-end and tame the highs which did improve things a notch, but was clearly the wrong band-aid approach. The shop did a decent job on the install, but didn't provide much support afterwards. They felt it sounded good.

So I decided to go back to the drawing board and search for an installer that was passionate about sound to help solve my problems. I found a local shop and lucky for me he was open during these turbulent times. Just by chatting with him, I could tell he took pride in his work and really seemed to know what he was talking about. After listening to a few songs, he said my mid-bass was weak but what was worse was my lower midrange appeared non-existent (no wonder singers were constantly shouting at me). He felt a DSP could really help, however the limitations of a 5.25" component set and the stock enclosures might be too big of a hurdle to overcome. The shop carries the Morel Virtus line (which were installed) and he suggested we go with a 3-way to help with imaging and to relieve the 2-way woofers and tweeters from over excursion and distorting. Adding an 8" sub to the passenger footwell would augment the midbass and provide adequate low bass in my smallish cabin.

After looking through his previous install notes on Porsches, he said a 6.5" would fit in the doors with some fabrication work and that I could also use a shallow 10" if I didn't mind losing some foot space. I wanted to end the misery and do it right this time, so I bit the bullet and gave him the green light. After sifting through the different gear I had at hand, we ended up with this final list of goods. I was hoping to use my Butler Tube amps to power the highs and mids, but ran into some technical difficulties.

Gladen Aerospace 3-ways
Focal Flax EVO 10
Brax 2400 4-ch
Mosconi PRO 4/10 4-ch
Mosconi Aerospace DSP

I was able to pick up the car today. Best 20 min drive home I've had in a long time. At the end of the day, I'm a super happy camper.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

should definitely post what shop made you happy so others can see


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## ribrown (May 2, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> should definitely post what shop made you happy so others can see


I have a feeling I know what shop that was......


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## ribrown (May 2, 2012)

runmeshaw said:


> I just wanted to say thanks to all the folks that chimed in on my midbass issue. After the first simple passive install failed to produce midbass in my Boxster, I tried to add a subwoofer to help add some low-end and tame the highs which did improve things a notch, but was clearly the wrong band-aid approach. The shop did a decent job on the install, but didn't provide much support afterwards. They felt it sounded good.
> 
> So I decided to go back to the drawing board and search for an installer that was passionate about sound to help solve my problems. I found a local shop and lucky for me he was open during these turbulent times. Just by chatting with him, I could tell he took pride in his work and really seemed to know what he was talking about. After listening to a few songs, he said my mid-bass was weak but what was worse was my lower midrange appeared non-existent (no wonder singers were constantly shouting at me). He felt a DSP could really help, however the limitations of a 5.25" component set and the stock enclosures might be too big of a hurdle to overcome. The shop carries the Morel Virtus line (which were installed) and he suggested we go with a 3-way to help with imaging and to relieve the 2-way woofers and tweeters from over excursion and distorting. Adding an 8" sub to the passenger footwell would augment the midbass and provide adequate low bass in my smallish cabin.
> 
> ...


Thats some very nice equipment you've got there. Any chance we can see some pictures of this top notch sound system?


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

SkizeR said:


> should definitely post what shop made you happy so others can see


I didn't think this shop needed any additional praise as everyone on here seems to agree they do quality work. I don't think they are on the forum much these days, but the Simplicity In Sound (Milpitas) crew finally made my Boxster sing.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

runmeshaw said:


> I didn't think this shop needed any additional praise as everyone on here seems to agree they do quality work. I don't think they are on the forum much these days, but the Simplicity N Sound (Milpitas) crew finally made my Boxster sing.


Figured. Good dudes over there

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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

ribrown said:


> Thats some very nice equipment you've got there. Any chance we can see some pictures of this top notch sound system?


Thanks, I thought the shop did a solid job. I asked for good sound quality with bass that could be heard/felt with convertible top down and they delivered. 

Here are some pics of the install:


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

That is some of the nicest A pillar work I've seen. Enjoy! S.I.S. work is so very good.

I did a slightly different but similar sub placement in my SLK.


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## Spyder_Man (Jul 26, 2014)

Chiming in here as a car audio noob, but someone familiar with 986 Boxster (what the OP is driving).

First off awesome final setup, but I can only imaging how much that cost you (probably more than the car is worth). Anyhow, I think the main issue that you had with your prior setup was the OEM boxes for the stock door speakers. The original sound system used enclosures to make up for the wimpy drivers that were used. Most 986 stereo upgrades that I've read suggesting removing the OEM speaker boxes and modifying the door panels to fit 6.5" drivers. These modifications are pretty simple from what I've read.

Also related, the original receivers and/or amplifiers send only lower frequencies to the door woofers to help focus their delivery to just the mid-woofer frequencies. When the OP gutted the OEM stuff and put an aftermarket receiver in, he was likely routing the full sound spectrum to these door woofers rather than setting up a low/band pass to limit the range they covered. 

I suspect both these items (using the OEM boxes with aftermarket drivers optimized for IB and the lack of filtering the signal to the drivers) resulted in the bad performance in the mid-woofer range. Not to rehash all the "mid woofers cannot do real bass" rambling that went on here already, but it seemed to me like the OP had trouble producing frequencies above the 80 Hz range.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

OEM boxes, or pods, sometimes can work when reworked.








L'Chaim.


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## runmeshaw (Aug 16, 2005)

Spyder_Man said:


> Chiming in here as a car audio noob, but someone familiar with 986 Boxster (what the OP is driving).
> 
> First off awesome final setup, but I can only imaging how much that cost you (probably more than the car is worth). Anyhow, I think the main issue that you had with your prior setup was the OEM boxes for the stock door speakers. The original sound system used enclosures to make up for the wimpy drivers that were used. Most 986 stereo upgrades that I've read suggesting removing the OEM speaker boxes and modifying the door panels to fit 6.5" drivers. These modifications are pretty simple from what I've read.
> 
> ...


Yes, the main issue was the mismatch between the Morels drivers with the OEM boxes. The crossovers used to split the frequencies were made specifically for the Morel set, so the tweeters and mids saw the correct frequency range. However using passives and limited head unit processing didn't allow much independent control over gain, time alignment, crossover points. Highs sounded overloaded and the sound was very imbalanced.

Not sure why you thought I was routing the full sound spectrum to the woofers?

Even with those mods that you mentioned others have tried, I think some form of DSP would be needed to get balanced sound in this car. Unfortunately I picked the wrong mod thread to follow, hence this thread. The shop that finally got it right did not try to gut my pockets dry. They understood the issues and offered me several options to fix the problem within my budget. If my earlier post made readers think they pressured/conned me into getting higher priced components, that was not my intention. Folks who have dealt with this shop before know what I'm talking about.


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