# My First HLCD Build



## DaCid

Hello, I just picked up a set of Ultra MH's from Eric last week, and am finally getting ready to install them. 

They will be running off a Kenwood KAC-5204 and pair up with some ID x65 woofers. 

I just have to do a small bit of wiring before I install the bodies. I am hoping that I will be able to install these without too much hassle, but if any of you have any advice for me I'd love it.  

I will post up some pictures of the bodies and the under-dash tomorrow when I go out to the car.


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## thehatedguy

Put them back as far and as wide as you can go under the dash. Make a panel out of cardboard, cover it in carpet/trunk liner that connects the tops of the horns to the edge of the dash.


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## minbari

good combination! I think you will be impressed with that setup. just remember that the horns are about 112db sensitive and the woofers are 92db. you will need the gains on the horns all the way down and the woofers up a bit. if you have a fader control from yout HU to amplifiers, fade away from the horns.

you will only need about 1 watt to the horns for them to get insanely loud.


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## DaCid

Sorry about not posting at all yesterday. It was a very busy day and I broke two bones in my hand, so I didn't feel up to typing much. 

But I was able to find a few old pictures of the under-dash area that will hopefully help you guys see my area to work with.

























I think I will have to have the end of the mouth sit just flush with the dash. I can't really move the horn back on the driver's side anymore because of my clutch pedal, and it's sketchy enough just having a horn down there at all.

I figured that if I put the horn as wide as possible on both sides, the passenger horn motor will lay right against the ECU, and the driver horn motor will rest against the bracket that holds the hood release. Then I will have to cut the extra bit off on the driver's side so the hood release is still usable. 

Any suggestions on actually mounting them? Or any other comments?

I am excited to see how these horns perform with the x65 woofers. I have heard lots of good things about them, so I decided to give them a try and am very eager to get everything up and running!


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## minbari

They came with the metal bar with holes in it, right?

I drilled 3 hole in the horn bodies on the little tabs at each end. Not at the way through. Then used self taping screws to holds onto the bracket I made out of the bar. 

Nuts, washers and bolts to the dash for the other end of the bracket.

Lastly, use one of diver mounting bolts to make a third bracket to hold up the weight of the motor.

Sent from my phone using digital farts


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## DaCid

minbari said:


> They came with the metal bar with holes in it, right?
> 
> I drilled 3 hole in the horn bodies on the little tabs at each end. Not at the way through. Then used self taping screws to holds onto the bracket I made out of the bar.
> 
> Nuts, washers and bolts to the dash for the other end of the bracket.
> 
> Lastly, use one of diver mounting bolts to make a third bracket to hold up the weight of the motor.
> 
> Sent from my phone using digital farts


That's what I was thinking because I know my foot will bump into it trying to get to my clutch and I'm sure some passengers will be clumsy enough to hit them too.

I didn't get to work on them today because I had some other tasks to attend to and am about to go to a wedding. 

However, depending on if I received my relays and switches today, I will be doing the final wiring under my dash tomorrow so I can get the horns up and mounted for good.


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## DaCid

Did you have to cut the horn flange at all for your install?

It looks like I will have to cut mine down, at least on the driver's side, and I just wanted to make sure that I could just take a hand saw to it without causing any kind of damage. hahah. 

Newbie question, I know, but when you are the first person in a city to even have horns in their car there's no one to ask. hahah.


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## minbari

you mean the little wings at each end of the horn mouth? yes, those are designed to be cut to suit. I cut mine with jigsaw.


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## Mic10is

You can cut all the way down to the mouth.its only real purpose is for mounting. I used a jigsaw as well.the urethane STINKS! So be warned that when you cut it that you get some powder and it stinks. I can tolerate many smells except the smell of that urethane plastic the horns are made from,silicone and mold release wax.


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## DaCid

Cool, thanks for clarifying.  

I am just waiting for an extra set of hands to come over then I will be trying to mount these babies! 

I am hoping to at least get the driver's side done today, and I'll be sure to take a picture of it and post it tonight. 

I'll make sure to cut the horns outside so the smell won't fill my garage. Thanks for pointing that out. 


-Decil


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## DaCid

Alright, so all day I questioned myself on why I had to try out HLCDs. Mounting these horns has been quite a struggle, so they better sound REALLY REALLY good! 

I had a lot of stuff to do today, so I only mounted the driver's side. It was a trick because I had to deal with the pedals, and it was cutting it close with my clutch pedal and hood release. However, I was able to get a strong brace off of the motor mount to a bolt and ran a bracket down to the far end of the mouth. I'm not completely happy with the sturdiness, it is sturdy, but I think it needs to be better especially with my foot always kicking around down there.

Tomorrow morning I will be going out to work on getting the passenger side all mounted up, then I just need to finish the car's interior. And I should be able to fire up the stereo tomorrow evening or the next day! 

Here's a couple of pictures of how the driver's side came out. I just took them with my phone. You can somewhat see the hood release lever behind the horn body.... That still functions. I was expecting to need to cut the body around it, but it worked as is, so with my limited time I left it. Maybe I'll cut it one day.

















Oh and I actually didn't mind the smell of the urethane body... It was a little "different" but not too bad IMO, I would have to agree with you on silicone though. I hate silicone, but it can be pretty handy.


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## subwoofery

If you wish to clear the brake pedal, you could try to cut your horn body without diminishing its performance. Like so: 









Kelvin


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## nadams5755

can you push the horn further left, where the driver is basically touching the sheet metal?

in my first neon w/ horns, it had a low dash. reaching the clutch pedal was a pain 'straight on'. i ended up with my heel right of the clutch pedal and basically reaching for the clutch at an angle.

i have smaller feet so it helps. 

this is a mini horn w/ cd1e v2 driver:


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## DaCid

nadams5755 said:


> can you push the horn further left, where the driver is basically touching the sheet metal?


No. It's hard to see in the picture, but the motor is actually sitting right next to the bracket that the hood release is on. 




-Decil


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## Mic10is

you need to make a transition panel or move the horn up more so its flush with the underside of the dash.
There cannot be any gaps. The dash becomes an extension of the horn mouth, essentially making it one large horn extension.
If you have gaps...well you have no transition...
you can use cardboard, masonite, whatever you want. just fill the gap with something rigid


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## Eric Stevens

Tighten them up to the bottom of the dash and if possible move them back and farther to the left and it will assist in the foot room looks like you could probably get it over at least another inch or more and not sure of the rear clearance. They will work where they are at though just get them a little wider and higher up to the dash. If you move them back you will want the under dash panels mentioned before so that there are no opening up into the dash in front of the horn mouth.

You might need to trim kick panel cover and move wires around to do it though. 

The results are well worth the effort, just wait  much easier than building a kick panel.

Eric


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## DaCid

I noticed that gap yesterday as well, but I will have to wait to fix it until I finish my car up today/tomorrow (That's when I'll actually turn on the stereo.). 

I installed the horn on the passenger side this morning. It is a LOT more rigid than the driver's side. I mean that thing will not move.  I noticed that the bracket furthest from the motor is slightly long, dropping that end of the horn slightly and gapping it away from the dash. I don't have a picture of that side yet, but I will throw it up on here soon.

I think shortening the bracket will level out the horn and remove the gap. And maybe I'll reinstall the driver's side horn to remove the gap on the dash, and see what I can do about moving it further left (Although I don't think I can do that without moving my trunk release, so I will have to see if I can find a new mount.).

One other thing, I know that both horns should be set back the same distance on each side, but what about how far left/right? I have the passenger horn as far right as possible without rerouting my ECU. If I were to move the hood latch and scoot the horn further left, should I move the ECU and scoot that horn right?

I really don't want to adjust the ECU if I can help it. hahah.


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## Mic10is

Install is all about you are willing or won't do to optimize your install.or in some competition organizations its about what you did or didn't. Do to classify you so you may not be able to do certain things bc of restrictions
But majority of us old skool horn guys all cut a hole in the inner fender so the driver physically sits inside your fender and outside the inside boundaries of the carwe've all relocated fuse panels,moved or extended wires
I've even had 2 cars where I cut and moved the clutch over to make sure I had full clearance moving everything as far back and wide as possible.

So if u don't want to or can't move your ecu,its fine
Tonally most of these things will have little effect but staging and imaging will be better if u do. It will be good now w no mods or changes but there is potential to get better w them
Up to you what your end goal is


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## DaCid

Yeah that all makes sense, and I am normally not shy to cut into things and move things around. However, I've clocked over 350 hours on this car just in the last 25 days trying to rebuild everything. Needless to say I just want it to be done.

Maybe I'll just make sure the horn can transition to the dash, and leave them while I get everything finished up. Then I could come back to them and see if there would be anyway to move them out and back. 

On another note, this is a picture of my door. (Yeah the previous owner went nuts with the deadener...) I will drop in the x65s in the speaker baffle, but would it help if I took some more deadener and stuck them over the holes? I don't have time to fiberglass panels for the holes so would just using deadener or something else to plugged the holes help with speaker response?











-Decil


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## DaCid

Phone keeps messing up. Hahah. Here we go. 


-Decil


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## nadams5755

DaCid said:


> On another note, this is a picture of my door. (Yeah the previous owner went nuts with the deadener...) I will drop in the x65s in the speaker baffle, but would it help if I took some more deadener and stuck them over the holes? I don't have time to fiberglass panels for the holes so would just using dead


you could pick up some sheets of thin aluminum sheets from the hardware store roofing department, screw them into place, then deaden over them.


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## Mic10is

nadams5755 said:


> you could pick up some sheets of thin aluminum sheets from the hardware store roofing department, screw them into place, then deaden over them.


what he said
Lowes and HD sell what you need.
get some sheet metal screws. cut to size. screw it down. silicone the edges and dampen over top


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## DaCid

I'll have to go pick up a some shorter self-tapping screws tomorrow then. I found some thin sheet metal while I was looking for a part I needed today, so that should suffice. 

Although I think I'm gonna wait to silicone them because I will have to get in there to replace the window motors soon, and there's one hole full of wires that will keep the door from being "sealed". But I will be doing that step soon as well. 

Here's the pictures of the passenger side. It's about 3/4" lower on the left side, so I will remake that bracket and it should suck up to the dash. As for moving the horn, it could go straight back but that would offset it from the driver's side at the moment, and I can't go right without moving the ECU, which I would prefer to save for another project down the road. I'm tired of projects. Hahah. 




















-Decil


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## Mic10is

DaCid said:


> I'll have to go pick up a some shorter self-tapping screws tomorrow then. I found some thin sheet metal while I was looking for a part I needed today, so that should suffice.
> 
> Although I think I'm gonna wait to silicone them because I will have to get in there to replace the window motors soon, and there's one hole full of wires that will keep the door from being "sealed". But I will be doing that step soon as well.
> 
> Here's the pictures of the passenger side. It's about 3/4" lower on the left side, so I will remake that bracket and it should suck up to the dash. As for moving the horn, it could go straight back but that would offset it from the driver's side at the moment, and I can't go right without moving the ECU, which I would prefer to save for another project down the road. I'm tired of projects. Hahah.
> 
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> -Decil


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## DaCid

Finally got the car up and running!  My car has the radio and lighter on the same fuse, and for some reason the lighter kept blowing the fuse, but I finally got it to stop. Now the stereo plays!

I didn't have time to do anything to the setup except turn the gain all the way down on the horns and set the xovers at 1.25khz for the horns and x65s to mate. It already sounds so clean and crisp!  I was stunned. No EQ. No TA. No tuning really. Great sound. 

And man those horns get loud! Even having them with the minimal gain, I could only get my HU to -20dB before it seemed to be at max volume. I would have my previous setup to -13dB at listening volume. The only negative thing I could see in the front stage being so loud, is now my sub isn't quite as predominate. I will have to add gain on the HU for the sub (or drop the front stage) to have them meet up better. 

I am hoping to have some time tomorrow to adjust gains, set T/A, maybe play with PEQ, etc. Quick question, when measuring from the horn, do you go from the closest end of the throat, the middle, or the furthest?

This test drive/listen was with the horns on the same brackets as in the previous pictures and my doors not sealed off yet. I am already greatly surprised and impressed with the sound of the woofers/horns, so I only expect for them to get better as I continue to improve the install. 

As far as setting EQs for the horns, are there any usual spikes that need to be nerfed? I think I have read before that you need to attenuate them around 2.5khz and 6.3khz but I can't remember exactly.... Any advice on where to start with tuning? (P.S. I am not a very good tuner by ear, yet. I only got into car audio ~2-3 years ago when I got my license, so I need some practice/advice. 

I can't wait to have this all dialed in one day, it will be amazing.


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## fenis

Taken from http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1316268-post3.html:

before using the TA to bring up height reverse polarity/phase of both horns together to see if it raises the stage.

So in this order
- put one side out of phase Horn and midbass driver
- listen and try reversing both horns polarity phase to lift sound stage
- balance left
- t/a left mid only until it lifts up as high as possible then mirror that setting to other side
- then balance center
- t/a left horn and mid together until it shifts center no more than .5 millisecond
- EQ left and right separately as the lower midrange / upper mid bass area 160 to 400 hz range can really lower our stage height. If you dont have an RTA try these settings 125 - 3dB 160 -9dB 200 -6dB 250 -6dB 320 -3dB and see if it is better tonally and stage height wise.

To smooth the top end adjust as follows 2000 -3dB 2500 -6 dB 3000 -6dB 4000 -3dB


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## thehatedguy

Technically the sound starts at the diaphram of the driver which is about where the ring of neo is at in the motor.


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## DaCid

I won't have time to tune it today or tomorrow because of my sister's wedding, but one issue I see with that method on the EQ is I only have 5 bands of EQ for each side. 


-Decil


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## thehatedguy

5 bands of parametric can do a lot. But you really need some way of seeing the FR to make the best use of it.


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## DaCid

I know I can do a lot with it, but I can't do all the cuts to the mids and highs as was posted earlier. 

As for any kind of RTA, all I have is my iPhone which I can get an app on, or download something to my laptop. But that's it. 


-Decil


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## Eric Stevens

Equivalent with the 5 band PEQ would be Center at 2.5 Khz with a Q of 2 to 2.5 and cut -3 to -6

Eric


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## DaCid

Eric Stevens said:


> Equivalent with the 5 band PEQ would be Center at 2.5 Khz with a Q of 2 to 2.5 and cut -3 to -6
> 
> Eric


I will try this out when I get the time. I may be able to get a few minutes in with tuning tonight or in the morning before I have to help out, so we'll see.

From what I've read and what I know (remember I consider myself a very novice tuner), I was thinking of playing just my mids to see where the image sat. Then try reversing polarity until I get it as centered as possible. Followed by listening with the mids and horns and seeing if it was still centered, if not, adjusting horn polarity. Then apply T/A (I was thinking of measuring from center of mouth of horn) to the left side to pull the image to the driver. Then play with the EQ, implementing Eric's suggestion of cutting at 2.5khz and maybe cutting down in the mids.

Would that be a good order to try out, or should I do some other steps or do things in different order?

Thanks for all of the support everyone.  Loving the lessons.


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## thehatedguy

Measuring there for the horn will be a ballpark, but technically it starts way further back from that.


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## DaCid

Yeah. I will probably end up measuring back by the opening of the throat for T/A, maybe I'll try from a few areas to see the differences. 


-Decil


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## DaCid

I had a chance to listen to the stereo on a short drive tonight. I had it turned down since I was in residential areas, but I noticed that I was hearing the singer's voice from the right horn much more than the left, so I will be looking into cutting it's gain slightly to try and balance the two horns. 

Another thing I have been thinking about is getting more output from the x65s. There is not enough midbass right now. They are on the Kenwood KAC-7205 getting 170w @ 4 ohms. I only have the gain on the amp to around 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up. I don't know where I should set the gain though, because like I said, I'm a novice tuner and have a hard time picking out distortion at times. The last thing I want to do is clip the amp and fry the voicecoils. Any suggestions on how to safely up their output?

Fill free to correct anything that I may be doing wrong. I am here to learn from the best.


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## minbari

The horns are 20 DB more sensitive. That's 100x more. your 170w on the x65 will be less that 2w on the horns. If you have a fader, fade it towards the x65 and turn the gain on the horn all the way down

Sent from my phone using digital farts


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## DaCid

I do have the amp gains for the horns as low as possible. I will check to see if my fader can adjust towards the mids and away from the horns, and I may turn the horns down with my deck's gain settings as well.

I can tell I will be doing this tune for a couple of months. hahah.


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## minbari

The hardest part is getting the horns quiet enough, lol. Literally, 10w will makes your ears bleed, lol. Good part is, you mid/treble will never reach distortion due to over driving.

Sent from my phone using digital farts


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## DaCid

minbari said:


> The hardest part is getting the horns quiet enough, lol. Literally, 10w will makes your ears bleed, lol. Good part is, you mid/treble will never reach distortion due to over driving.
> 
> Sent from my phone using digital farts


That's true. Too bad it makes it more likely to drive your mid bass to distortion. Hahah. 

I only get 5-10 minute listening session while I'm running errands for the wedding, so I'm just trying to tweak settings on the fly. Since I'm playing the system at a lower volume I bumped up my sub's gain a bit. I also cut my horns 4dB using the deck gain on them, I cannot however fade from the horns and not fade the mids. Just cutting the horns though has help to level their output already. 


-Decil


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## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> That's true. Too bad it makes it more likely to drive your mid bass to distortion. Hahah.
> 
> I only get 5-10 minute listening session while I'm running errands for the wedding, so I'm just trying to tweak settings on the fly. Since I'm playing the system at a lower volume I bumped up my sub's gain a bit. I also cut my horns 4dB using the deck gain on them, I cannot however fade from the horns and not fade the mids. Just cutting the horns though has help to level their output already.
> 
> 
> -Decil


Not the best way to do it but what is your Xover point? 
Let's try 1.25kHz LP and HP. Download a 1.25kHz test tone and mute all but the left horn. You don't need to listen to the tone very loud 
Now mute the left horn and unmute the left mid and listen to the same tone. 
That should help you level out on one side. 
Now mute the left mid and unmute the right mid and so on... 

There are other ways but that's an easy way that should get you in the ballpark for now. 

Kelvin


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## DaCid

I have the xover set to 1.25khz with 18dB slope on both mids and horns. I will get a 1.25khz test tone onto my phone and work on that. 


-Decil


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## Mic10is

cross the horns at 7khz at 6db/octave and see how it sounds

and also TA'ing horns can be a major PITA
around 2khz our ears use amplitude not phase and time to discern location of sound, so its difficult to hear anything actually move, especially since horns have directional control.
The horn already steers into toward the center.

your best bet is to turn the volume way down, drop the Xo point to 6-800 and then start to TA and listen for movement.


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## DaCid

Good to know about the T/A trick, thanks. I'll work on matching amplitude with the test tone, then move to T/A. 


-Decil


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## subwoofery

Mic10is said:


> cross the horns at 7khz at 6db/octave and see how it sounds
> 
> and also TA'ing horns can be a major PITA
> around 2khz our ears use amplitude not phase and time to discern location of sound, so its difficult to hear anything actually move, especially since horns have directional control.
> The horn already steers into toward the center.
> 
> your best bet is to turn the volume way down, drop the Xo point to 6-800 and then start to TA and listen for movement.


The 7kHz suggestion is to tame the peaks in the 1kHz-4kHz range without touching the EQ? 

Kelvin


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## Mic10is

subwoofery said:


> The 7kHz suggestion is to tame the peaks in the 1kHz-4kHz range without touching the EQ?
> 
> Kelvin


Yep

I'll give winslow credit for this idea...its something I had never thought of but could be effective


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## subwoofery

Mic10is said:


> Yep
> 
> I'll give winslow credit for this idea...its something I had never thought of but could be effective


Sweet... So did you use that trick to win your world title with your Bimmer? 

I'd like to try that. But am a bit scared to mess with my system's phase right now (analog EQ) :blush:. 

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

What the 7k at 6dB does is flatten out the rising power response of the horn in the 1-4k range that all horns have. This combined with the natural roll off of the horns gives you a roughly 1.2k 24 dB acoustical slope. It should get the horns relativily flat through out the pass band. I played around for a while in lspCAD a few weeks back looking at the passive circuit thread on here. This should accomplish about the same thing. I haven't had time or a processor in the car to try it out. On paper, doing that with a 12 dB slope on the top of the mids around the same point nets you really flat phase...if you have the polarity of the mids reversed- phase is NOT perserved with the polarities of the horns flipped, only the mids.

Again, I have not tried any of this in the car, but on paper, it looks really really good. Maybe Mic has tried it out.


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## thehatedguy

FWIW, Eric said he has done similar things with wakeboard/tower horn systems- use the XO to do EQing and XO duties at the same time.

The way I see it, you can do two things- one brute force the XO point and EQ the peak down. But we know EQ effects phase too. There is nothing wrong with this method, it has been done a lot in the past and can yield great results.

Or, you can take a note from the home world and do the EQ work within the XO. I simmed a ton of home horn speakers to see how their XOs work. Hardly anyone there is doing the above method. They are using the electrical roll off of the crossover combined with the acoustical roll off of the drivers to get a nice slope. All of this really snapped into place when I was doing the research and working on the crossovers for my now defunct micro-unity horns.


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## subwoofery

Crap... Now I have to try it  

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

Back to the midbass thing.

Those xS mids aren't exactly going to make your pants leg shake used in singles. Nor are they going to be really strong past 80-90 hertz. If you are wanting thumping midbass, you picked the wrong ones (haven't done them ported, that could be different).


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## thehatedguy

Try it...like I said, it looks good on paper. I don' know how it would work in the real world. I have no processor and just started working on the kicks for my 4 ohm 18Sound 6s...so I have no way to doing any of this right now.



subwoofery said:


> Crap... Now I have to try it
> 
> Kelvin


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## chevbowtie22

thehatedguy said:


> What the 7k at 6dB does is flatten out the rising power response of the horn in the 1-4k range that all horns have. This combined with the natural roll off of the horns gives you a roughly 1.2k 24 dB acoustical slope. It should get the horns relativily flat through out the pass band. I played around for a while in lspCAD a few weeks back looking at the passive circuit thread on here. This should accomplish about the same thing. I haven't had time or a processor in the car to try it out. On paper, doing that with a 12 dB slope on the top of the mids around the same point nets you really flat phase...if you have the polarity of the mids reversed- phase is NOT perserved with the polarities of the horns flipped, only the mids.
> 
> Again, I have not tried any of this in the car, but on paper, it looks really really good. Maybe Mic has tried it out.


Not trying to thread jack but would you need to run the mids up to the 7k for the 12db cut? The reason I ask is my 8MB400's probably won't reach that high. 18Sound recommends 3k at most. Could you accomplish similar results with crossing the mids at 3k with a 12db slope and the horns at the same 3k with 6db slope? Or would the 800 - 1.2khz cut off be better in that situation?


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## DaCid

thehatedguy said:


> Back to the midbass thing.
> 
> Those xS mids aren't exactly going to make your pants leg shake used in singles. Nor are they going to be really strong past 80-90 hertz. If you are wanting thumping midbass, you picked the wrong ones (haven't done them ported, that could be different).


I don't expect them to give me crazy strong midbass, I knew that when I decided to stick with a 6.5 woofer. I have them playing 80hz -1.25khz currently. 

I took a listen to my brother's soundtrack for Final Fantasy 13 last night, and we noticed that all of the instruments and details were muddled and sounding like crap. After I played with the settings I noticed that it was using the deck's gain to cut the horns -4dB. I leveled that back down to 0dB, and 100x better sound. So much better. But now that leaves me with needing to safely up the power to the mids, and my only idea is to get a better, more powerful amp (No budget for it at the moment though.).

I am feeling pretty groggy today, so I don't know if I will get to it today, but I will try to get into tuning this thing more completely over the next couple of days.


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## thehatedguy

No, don't run the mids to 7k. What you are doing by crossing the horns shallow up high is cutting the power curve all horns have in the 1-4k range and using the natural roll off of the horns to get a nice steep roll off down low.

3k at 6b wouldn't attenuate down low fast enough nor get rid of the big bump centered there...plus you would be having the midbasses play through that region. 

Most of the horn's efficiency- the real big numbers we see like 111 dB or whatever is in the 1-4k range. It falls off back down into the mid-upper 90s up high. Once the system is equalized, you loose that efficiency unless you have 110 dB sensitive supertweeters picking up where the horn is rolling off. It's not just something Eric's horns and drivers do, all horns will have a rising response in this area. It is good even equalized because you still reduce the needed voltage to the speakers to get output (meaning lowers distortion in that area). And it makes crossovers easier due the inherent acoustical rolloff horns and waveguides have down low.

And there are two ways to do the EQing- with the XO or with an actual EQ and XO.




chevbowtie22 said:


> Not trying to thread jack but would you need to run the mids up to the 7k for the 12db cut? The reason I ask is my 8MB400's probably won't reach that high. 18Sound recommends 3k at most. Could you accomplish similar results with crossing the mids at 3k with a 12db slope and the horns at the same 3k with 6db slope? Or would the 800 - 1.2khz cut off be better in that situation?


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## thehatedguy

And it may not be 7k EXACTLY, but somewhere around that point. I didn't have much chance to pinpoint the numbers in lspCAD or PCD because the computer I have those programs on is dying/dead.

And it was based on the only set of raw FR curves from the Ultra minihorns that I've seen. It would be best to measure the horns in your car to see where it works best...IF it works at all- like I said before, it looks good on paper dunno how it works in real life.


----------



## chevbowtie22

Oh ok. I think I'm following you now. I see what your saying about the natural roll off of the horns and using it your advantage. Instead of eq-ing the 1-4khz peak you use the crossover up high to tame it.


----------



## DaCid

I've been extremely out of it today, so I didn't tune it at all. 

I will use some test tones, but then I want to try out Hotel California, Pat a Pan, and Alice In Chains Unplugged album.


----------



## nadams5755

DaCid said:


> Alice In Chains Unplugged album.



i blew the dust off this CD friday, my wife has never heard it and i've long forgotten how awesome it sounds.

i need to finish assembling bits to get my system started...


----------



## 2wheelie

Mic10is said:


> cross the horns at 7khz at 6db/octave and see how it sounds
> 
> and also TA'ing horns can be a major PITA
> around 2khz our ears use amplitude not phase and time to discern location of sound, so its difficult to hear anything actually move, especially since horns have directional control.
> The horn already steers into toward the center.
> 
> your best bet is to turn the volume way down, drop the Xo point to 6-800 and then start to TA and listen for movement.


I did this a few days ago and  what an improvement. It made the horns blend well with the mids and I still have the dynamics and directional control of the horns. BEST horn setup I ever heard. DE500 - cd1e mini horns - [email protected]


----------



## thehatedguy

Cool! So 6kish might be better than 7k...which makes sense. 7k might be more equal to 1750 hertz, where as 6k would be more like 1500 hertz.

Like I said, it works on paper, but haven't tried it yet in my own car.


----------



## DaCid

I really haven't had time to tune still. I've been busy helping my brother fix up is house after it got broken into, low lives..... 

I have been enjoying the music just as it is though, it's so clean and strong. Maybe I will try changing the horns to 6.3khz and my woofers to 1.6khz to give that a go for myself.

On another note, I was given an Old School Zapco Z300 amp yesterday. It's the same one as I am using for my sub. Only one issue, it's been fried. 

This is the amp.








2x150 @ 4 ohms








The damage.  It smells of electrical fire, my car just recently stopped smelling of it, and it's hard to tell but I think parts of the board are fried as well.








I was hoping that I was going to be able to get this repaired and use it, but after looking around at it, I don't think you can repair it at all. So I'm back to looking for better quality amps for the woofers and eventually my horns. I want out of my Kenwoods soon.


----------



## DaCid

I am playing with the stereo with the xovers at 1.6khz with 12dB slope on the mids and 6.3khz with 6dB slope on the horns. 

It actually sounds pretty good. I feel I lost a bit of detail down around the 2khz frequencies, but I will have to match the amplitude of the horns to the mids before I can tell for certain. It may just sound off from the different amplitudes. 


-Decil


----------



## Pimpnyou204

Since I don't want to create a hole new thread I figured I could ask I this.

Since I've got my horns some what in my sound stage is drastically low and the horns are pretty easy to locate could there be any reason for this?


----------



## Eric Stevens

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Since I don't want to create a hole new thread I figured I could ask I this.
> 
> Since I've got my horns some what in my sound stage is drastically low and the horns are pretty easy to locate could there be any reason for this?


Yes, two things cause a low stage, frequency steering due to uneven/un-smooth frequency response, or phase of HLCD vs Midbass.

Do you have an IASCA CD or AS2K setup disc? You will need this and search for my setup check list.

A quick thing to try is reverse the polarity of the horns, do it either electronically in a processor or at the speaker wire connections on the amp.

Eric


----------



## subwoofery

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Since I don't want to create a hole new thread I figured I could ask I this.
> 
> Since I've got my horns some what in my sound stage is drastically low and the horns are pretty easy to locate could there be any reason for this?


Yep, I also think this is a phase or freq response problem. 
Check page 2 of this thread (My 1st HLCD build), there's a tuning setup from Eric Stevens. 

Kelvin


----------



## nadams5755

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Since I've got my horns some what in my sound stage is drastically low and the horns are pretty easy to locate could there be any reason for this?


any installation issues, are the horns mated to the bottom of your dash with no gaps?


----------



## Pimpnyou204

I don't really have any gap I'll take pics in a little bit but I switched phases and it sounds better but no matter which way I switch (L or R) it sounds the same. It's higher also but some frequencies are still super noticeable and some are extremely bright.


----------



## minbari

do you have an EQ? one thing I have noticed in the little time I have used my HLCDs, an EQ is indispensable. there are some freq res humps that just need smoothing.


----------



## Pimpnyou204

Ok, pics of install...

Left side im stuck with the hood pully in the way. If i go any further back i have nothing to tie into and left i obviously will have my handle blocking the horn.



















Now on the passenger side i have this large hump in the top corner of my flooring (complete solid metal). That surprisingly is the furthest back right i can go with it.


----------



## 2wheelie

Looks like an install problem to me. Well, 85% install, 15% tuning. 

Get the horns ALL the way over toward the kick panels. Make sure the horn bodies are horizontally level - side to side, front to back (use a leveling tool). Make sure the horn bodies are at the same height from the floor and depth from some other datum. 

Do these things FIRST. Do whatever it takes to make this happen.... Then, concentrate on tuning.


----------



## minbari

2wheelie said:


> Looks like an install problem to me. Well, 85% install, 15% tuning.
> 
> Get the horns ALL the way over toward the kick panels. Make sure the horn bodies are horizontally level - side to side, front to back (use a leveling tool). Make sure the horn bodies are at the same height from the floor and depth from some other datum.
> 
> Do these things FIRST. Do whatever it takes to make this happen.... Then, concentrate on tuning.


x2, those horns are going to be tough. you have them centered in the cabin way too much. the mouth of the horn is almost firing directly into the center console.

they need to be pushed to the corners more. I ended up cutting the kick panels for the motor to sit in.


----------



## Pimpnyou204

I pretty much already figured that was gonna be said. But I don't see how to over come the passenger side. I can't bring it closer as the glove compartment won't open then and as said before it has to be as far back as back. Going any more ougwards I'm hitting my fire wall. For some odd reason they bent it in that corner and it's a rather large lump. I can peel the deadener off the wall and maybe gain 1/4 with it off but I'm afraid of resonance and bumping into the corner. 

Driver side would the hood release partially blocking maybe 1/4 of the horn matter any?


----------



## minbari

you wouldnt want the hood release blocking the mouth of the horn, but the little "ears" dont matter. move the hood release behind the horn body, back 2"

glove compartment, do you even keep gloves in there? 

mine is gutted, the things you sacrifice for audio.


----------



## Pimpnyou204

Well even if I say screw the glove compartment that hump is the issue only thing I can do is bring it forward.. I'll have to get down there and try and peel it away what I can but I doubt that I can do much. The release I'm thinking of dropping it on a angle.. 2" wouldn't clear the horn and motor much.


----------



## 2wheelie

Having the horns as far back as you can go is NOT as important as the other things I mentioned. Concentrate on width, height, level and transition from horn-to-dash. Make them as symmetrical as physically possible.

Relocate the hood release, cut the firewall or get creative in some other way. How bad do you want this to work...?


----------



## nadams5755

if you pop the kickpanels off, you'd be surprised how far you can push that driver in, probably lay it right next to the sheet metal. remove the knee bolster and glove box to see what you can do, strap mounting options, etc.

should be the same for both sides. there's probably room to stuff the driver between the blower motor and sheet metal on the passenger side.

could remove the hood switch and get an idea of how it works, see if there's enough slack to move it elsewhere. maybe above the throttle? fashion some L brackets from the horn bracket material, reinforce it, etc.

my last two cars w/ horns, i cut out part of the kick panel w/ a jigsaw to make room. i was able to keep the clips in place too.


----------



## mfenske

thehatedguy said:


> What the 7k at 6dB does is flatten out the rising power response of the horn in the 1-4k range that all horns have. This combined with the natural roll off of the horns gives you a roughly 1.2k 24 dB acoustical slope. It should get the horns relativily flat through out the pass band. I played around for a while in lspCAD a few weeks back looking at the passive circuit thread on here. This should accomplish about the same thing. I haven't had time or a processor in the car to try it out. On paper, doing that with a 12 dB slope on the top of the mids around the same point nets you really flat phase...if you have the polarity of the mids reversed- phase is NOT perserved with the polarities of the horns flipped, only the mids.
> 
> Again, I have not tried any of this in the car, but on paper, it looks really really good. Maybe Mic has tried it out.


Just so I'm clear (it's been a long day so maybe I'm not following so well) this would be a 6db LOW PASS at 7k?


----------



## subwoofery

HECTATE said:


> i think the XS65's are full of up front in your face midrange, i dont think they match well with horns. that being said.... put a grill cloth in front, turn gains all the way down and move the horn as close as you possibly can to the mids


How would you describe the sound of horns? 

Kelvin


----------



## Horsemanwill

HECTATE said:


> i think the XS65's are full of up front in your face midrange, i dont think they match well with horns. that being said.... put a grill cloth in front, turn gains all the way down and move the horn as close as you possibly can to the mids


i disagree i think the x65 mids match well with horns. that's what i use.


----------



## DaCid

I hate digging up old threads, but I felt like this would be better than making a new one for my question..

As summer is coming up I am hopeful to really lock in my stereo for good. Since my zapco is dying I have had my little 10" JL w1 in instead of my idmax. By mid summer I would like to restructure my trunk setup so I can make a false floor that works, so there's no better time to get new amps. 

I am thinking of running Soundstream amps for the mids and sub. I was thinking either the rubicon 4.600 & 1.1600 or the reference 4.760 & 1.1000. Which would you guys pick, or would there be other brands you'd suggest in that price range?

The other conflict I am trying to figure out is if I should replace my horn amp, and of I do, with what?

Ill have to save up the funds for this, so in the mean time I will be remounting horns and aligning them, designing a new sub box (gotta decide on ported or sealed), and other projects. 

Thanks for any feedback you can give me! Just hoping to get some good brainstorming from this.


----------



## nadams5755

I have a 4.760 and a 2.640 for my horns, mids, and subs respectfully. The amps are quite large. 

There's 2 things I don't like about the reference amps: the non-defeatable crossovers and the size. 

Otherwise they sound great and I love the minimalistic looks. 


Mobile brevity mistakes and all that.


----------



## DaCid

So you use the 4.760 to power your mids and horns? It doesn't over power the horns in contrast to the rest of the system? I'm just trying to figure out if I can use a 4 channel amp for my mids and horns or if I should run my horns on a tiny amp and push 200+ to my mids.....


----------



## minbari

DaCid said:


> So you use the 4.760 to power your mids and horns? It doesn't over power the horns in contrast to the rest of the system? I'm just trying to figure out if I can use a 4 channel amp for my mids and horns *or if I should run my horns on a tiny amp and push 200+ to my mids...*..


I vote for this. I am running 30 watts to my horns and 150 watts to my midbass. even with the gains all down on both amplifiers, they are balanced pretty well.


----------



## Mic10is

I have a JL900/5 bridged to my horns and a 600/4 bridged to my mids
dont be scared of power


----------



## nadams5755

DaCid said:


> So you use the 4.760 to power your mids and horns?


indeed, i adjusted the gains and DSP outputs accordingly.


----------



## DaCid

Mic10is said:


> I have a JL900/5 bridged to my horns and a 600/4 bridged to my mids
> dont be scared of power


I wouldn't say that I'm afraid of power. I just want to make sure that I balance out the entire system. My old zapco would feed the IDMax 870-900w at 2 ohms and that was PLENTY. So I feel like the SS Ref1.1000 will be perfect for my sub. 

Initially I was thinking of getting a Ref4.760 and bridging it to my mids, then finding another amp for the horns. I don't like this because I would have to find a little amp that would feed them (no idea on what amp to look at), it would cost more, and it will take more wiring and more space..

The thought of using a Ref4.760 to power the mids and the horns sounds appealing because I drop the third amp. I just don't know that 115w to the mids will allow them to match the horns getting around 57w. 

What are your guys thoughts on the two different routes I could go? If I went with the 3-amp setup, which amp would you suggest for the horns?


----------



## Mic10is

My point is people get way to hung up on power and efficiency differences. Yes it matters to an extent but so long as levels are set correctly,then just about any set up can work. My 900/5 bridged is 200rms to the horns. 900/5 puts out more at 8ohm bridged than 4ohm. My 600/4 is 300rms to mids. Only 500 to a single 10.


----------



## DaCid

I see your point. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what I need to go for because I am looking to use as little EQ as possible (When I used the HU gain to attenuate the horns it kill the quality, so I'm hoping to avoid most alterations.).

I think the SS Reference 4.760 and 1.1000/4.920 will work great for powering the mids/horns and subwoofer. Since I will be waiting a month or two to pick up the amps, I am trying to plan a good trunk layout to allow for a new false floor. I made some cardboard templates of the the 4.760 and 1.1000 to test fit the amps when I figure out the sub enclosure design.

I played around with WinISD to map out response curves of sealed and ported boxes. I've always been a believer in sealed because I've never heard a decent ported box (no one around my area seems to care about quality). However with that said, I am tempted to try my luck at creating one to hear one for myself. 

The biggest problem with the ported box will be the space restriction. The ported box is mapped out to be 30"x18"x11.5" and the sealed box is mapped out to be 20"x18"x9.5" (this would allow me to accommodate for the woofer displacement and port displacement). The end result would be 1.3 ft^3 for the sealed and 2.55 ft^3 for the ported per Image Dynamic specs. 

The amp rack will most likely just be a sheet of MDF with 2x4 bracing and a MDF top, nothing fancy. I haven't figured out all of the fasteners and anchors for the rack and the top floor, but that will come later on. 

Here are some pictures I have drafted up with Sketchup and the response curves on WinISD. If any of you have any comments I'd love to hear them! Thanks for dealing with me through all of this. Hahah.


----------



## DaCid

I'm pretty busy with finishing up this semester at school, but I took a break from studying to look around at amps. I have already decided I will be going with a ~1.3cu sealed box for the sub. My considerations for amps are price, size, and quality. The most flexible of those being price. 

The amps I am currently looking at include the Soundstream Reference line, the new Zapco Z series, the Mosconi AS line, the DLS Ultimate line, and JL HD series.

I like the SS Reference line for the price ($700 for the 4.760 and 1.100 I'd need). They look to have solid specs from what I have found. Their size is a little cumbersome, being 10" wide and 19" and 22" long.

I have always been a Zapco fan, and their new line is AH-MAZING! I also really like this choice because if I ever move to an external DSP and drop my DRZ's EQ options, the Zapco Z8 is at the top of the list. The specs are superb. The 150.4 would work great for my mids and horns, and either another 150.4 for the sub or the 150.6 for the sub and add a midbass to the kicks. They are somewhat large 8"W and 19"L. Price and availability are the problem, I don't have any dealers around me, and I'm sure the price would run me at least $1500-$2000.

I found the Mosconi AS line to be very elegant. They look simple but pleasing while packing some good power in a small chassis. The 100.4 could power everything up front, and the 200.2 could bridge the sub. I actually have a dealer for them in town (surprising that you can get any quality here), but it'd be $2100 plus tax for these which is close to the Zapco line I'm assuming.

I am a fan of DLS Ultimate amps. They are beautiful and have great specs. My brother has the A2, A3, and A4 amps, and they are fantastic. The problem is that I would need all three of these to pull off my system. They are extremely hard for me to find them anywhere, and they are gonna be pricey when I do find them. 

I am kind of against JL and D-class amps, mainly because my town has a lot of shi**y JL systems floating around and I have never heard a D-class that sounded as good as an A/B. Taking these into consideration, I would consider the HD series they offer. From what I have read they are great SQ amps and you can't tell that they are D vs A/B, so I would give them a listen. The best thing about these are that they are TINY, and would be a breeze to install! I have a local dealer for JL as well, but these would probably run me $2300.

So when I compare these choices, it's obvious that SS Ref is the most budget-friendly. The Zapco Z's would be the perfect choice, and considering I may be able to snag them for the same as the mosconi or jl lines it would be nice. DLS are just too rare to grab.

Do any of you have any ideas/opinions on these choices? Are there other amps that you think I should consider? If you were to choose between SS Ref and Zapco Z what would you do?

Thanks for letting me ramble more!


----------



## subwoofery

Based on your requirements, I'd probably look for either the old Zapco C2K line (can be found on eBay @ a good price) or go with the Arc Audio SE line 

Those are IMO one of the best amps (that doesn't cost a fortune) right now in the high-end realm...

Kelvin


----------



## DaCid

Thanks for the response! I took a look at these lines and found that the Arc SE's would run $3000 because I would need (1) SE2300 and (2) SE4100's to power everything. Then the Zapco C2K would require (2) 2.5X's and come up with an amp for the sub (no C2K's have enough juice) and would cost $1000 plus the sub amp. So I will probably go another route as of now.


----------



## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> Thanks for the response! I took a look at these lines and found that the Arc SE's would run $3000 because I would need (1) SE2300 and (2) SE4100's to power everything. Then the Zapco C2K would require (2) 2.5X's and come up with an amp for the sub (no C2K's have enough juice) and would cost $1000 plus the sub amp. So I will probably go another route as of now.


The C2K 9.0D has enough juice for any sub setup  

1 x 2.5X + This could power your setup well 

Kelvin


----------



## DaCid

subwoofery said:


> The C2K 9.0D has enough juice for any sub setup
> 
> 1 x 2.5X + This could power your setup well
> 
> Kelvin


Ahh. When I searched for C2K's that were for sale they were all 2.0, 2.5, and 4.0 and the 4.0's were $1400+.

So you were suggesting a new 2.5X for the horns, then a 4.0X to the mids, and the 9.0XD to the sub with 1000w overhead!... This looks really good, however I doubt I could grab that auction this time around.

I will have to keep an eye on them now. Otherwise I am really leaning towards seeing what it will take to pick up (2) Z-150.4's, seeing as how they could put ~75w to the horns, 150w to the mids, and 900w to the IDMax. I think this would make for a great setup (Unless I decide to drop in a 8" midbass in the kicks), then I'd have to pickup a Z-150.6.

The DSP-Z8 is also very enticing, I feel that it's processing abilities would out-perform the DRZ's capabilities. However, since I am a college student I think I will put this on the shelf until next year.


----------



## subwoofery

DaCid said:


> Ahh. When I searched for C2K's that were for sale were all 2.0, 2.5, and 4.0 and the 4.0's were $1400+.
> 
> So you were suggesting a new 2.5X for the horns, then a 4.0X to the mids, and the 9.0XD to the sub with 1000w overhead!... This looks really good, however I doubt I could grab that auction this time around.
> 
> I will have to keep an eye on them now. Otherwise I am really leaning towards seeing what it will take to pick up (2) Z-150.4's, seeing as how they could put ~75w to the horns, 150w to the mids, and 900w to the IDMax. I think this would make for a great setup (Unless I decide to drop in a 8" midbass in the kicks), then I'd have to pickup a Z-150.6.
> 
> The DSP-Z8 is also very enticing, I feel that it's processing abilities would out-perform the DRZ's capabilities. However, since I am a college student I think I will put this on the shelf until next year.


For now, just save for a processor - with enough tuning, you might not feel the need to change your amp setup 

Kelvin


----------



## bitperfect

I have an Arc Audio SE2075 on my ES Ultras (~40rms) and could not be happier. I also have the ALD. No noise at all. I tried other amps and was not happy. I bought the amp on here at a great price. 

On my midbass ID CX62 I have an Arc Audio KS300.2 (~300rms). I would like to have an Arc SE...but I am on a budget. 

On subs I have a KS500.1


----------



## DaCid

subwoofery said:


> For now, just save for a processor - with enough tuning, you might not feel the need to change your amp setup
> 
> Kelvin


Yeah, I won't make a move on a processor anytime soon... I will be adjusting my horns mounting positions once finals are over, and trying to really tune it in afterwards. The reason I would like to change out my amps is because I am hoping to redo the trunk with a new sub box and false floor (also want to do my own type of show floor like Bing), but I can't justify the amount of work for the mediocre quality of my amps.


----------



## qikazel

Just stumbled across this thread! I have been kicking around the idea of horns for some time. My car is a 2005 Ford 500 sedan. My current set up is (2) PPI 1in tweeters in pods on the a pillar, (2) Hertz 6.5 HSK XL mids in well sealed doors, and (2) Phoenix Gold X-Max 12 in subs in the trunk. I am powering the tweeters with a Soundstream D100. The mids are powered by one Soundstream Ref 500 bridged each! And Finally, the subs are powered by a bridged Soundstream 1000. 

My question is, how would a set of horns fit in to this set-up and would I need to change mids?


----------



## qikazel

Forgot to mention I have a Carrozzeria(Pioneer) DEQ-99 which has t/a for subs, mids, and tweets. I assume this would help to balance things out.


----------



## subwoofery

Power distribution is good, you would have to add horns, lose the tweeters and change your mids to more efficient ones... 

Kelvin


----------



## minbari

qikazel said:


> Just stumbled across this thread! I have been kicking around the idea of horns for some time. My car is a 2005 Ford 500 sedan. My current set up is (2) PPI 1in tweeters in pods on the a pillar, (2) Hertz 6.5 MLK mids in well sealed doors, and (2) Phoenix Gold X-Max 12 in subs in the trunk. I am powering the tweeters with a Soundstream D100. The mids are each powered by one Soundstream Ref 500 bridged. And Finally, the subs are powered by a bridged Soundstream 1000.
> 
> My question is, how would a set of horns fit in to this set-up and would I need to change mids?


Looked up the Hertz mids. 93db sensitivity. dont know if that it 1w/1m or 2.83v/1m though.

they might work, worst case you would have to turn the horns way down to blend them in.


----------



## qikazel

I saw these were recommended in another thread. Beyma 8G40 8" pro drivers . Will these do the trick?


----------



## subwoofery

minbari said:


> Looked up the Hertz mids. 93db sensitivity. dont know if that it 1w/1m or 2.83v/1m though.
> 
> they might work, worst case you would have to turn the horns way down to blend them in.


If it's the mid from the MLK165 set, it has a sensitivity of 86.99dB 1/1m 
If it's from the MLK2, it's 89.28dB 1w/1m 

Kelvin


----------



## minbari

subwoofery said:


> If it's the mid from the MLK165 set, it has a sensitivity of 86.99dB 1/1m
> If it's from the MLK2, it's 89.28dB 1w/1m
> 
> Kelvin


ah, I just did a google search. it didnt say if it was 1w/1m or 2.83v.

either one of those would be far too low in that case.


----------



## subwoofery

minbari said:


> ah, I just did a google search. it didnt say if it was 1w/1m or 2.83v.
> 
> either one of those would be far too low in that case.


Calculated from their spec sheet. Numbers don't lie 

Kelvin


----------



## qikazel

I am sorry guys, The mids are Hertz HSK XL 6.5 Mids, not the mlk's. I just got them and mistook them for the others I had been looking to buy.


----------



## minbari

ha ha, well the 89db number would coincide with the 92db number they had listed if it was 2.83v. for one of the sets anyway.


----------



## qikazel

The specs I found on them are 93.5 sensitivity.


----------



## minbari

qikazel said:


> The specs I found on them are 93.5 sensitivity.


not sure how they calculate it, but it comes out to about 88.2db by the numbers.. way to low to work very well with horns.


----------



## qikazel

Thanks for your help!


----------



## subwoofery

minbari said:


> not sure how they calculate it, but it comes out to about 88.2db by the numbers.. way to low to work very well with horns.


Yep... If you're going with a 6.5", try to look for 91dB-92dB 1w/1m - higher is better. Too high and it won't work as a midbass+midrange ; so I won't go higher than 93dB 1w/1m for a 6.5" driver

Kelvin


----------



## minbari

ya, as much as people poo poo them, the ID x65 works really well for me. 92db 1w/1m, right in the sweet spot. good midbass and midrange goes plenty high for a horn that will be crossed around 1200 hz.


----------



## DaCid

minbari said:


> ya, as much as people poo poo them, the ID x65 works really well for me. 92db 1w/1m, right in the sweet spot. good midbass and midrange goes plenty high for a horn that will be crossed around 1200 hz.


+1. I have these and they are great! I have considered squeezing a 8" midbass into my kicks from 80-250Hz, but that will probably wait a couple of years. I just need to figure my equipment out so I can get it and start learning to tune!


----------



## crx4luke

DaCid said:


> Ahh. When I searched for C2K's that were for sale they were all 2.0, 2.5, and 4.0 and the 4.0's were $1400+.
> 
> So you were suggesting a new 2.5X for the horns, then a 4.0X to the mids, and the 9.0XD to the sub with 1000w overhead!... This looks really good, however I doubt I could grab that auction this time around.
> 
> I will have to keep an eye on them now. Otherwise I am really leaning towards seeing what it will take to pick up (2) Z-150.4's, seeing as how they could put ~75w to the horns, 150w to the mids, and 900w to the IDMax. I think this would make for a great setup (Unless I decide to drop in a 8" midbass in the kicks), then I'd have to pickup a Z-150.6.
> 
> The DSP-Z8 is also very enticing, I feel that it's processing abilities would out-perform the DRZ's capabilities. However, since I am a college student I think I will put this on the shelf until next year.


I was reading this as i'm considering horns, and saw you were looking for some amps. I have a 2.0x and a 3.0x for sale. They would make a pretty good pair for your front stage. 

On topic though..… how have you liked the horns compared to a traditional component set? I've never had the opportunity to hear a set of horns.


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