# Sound deadening Quality has gone down..



## LovesMusic (Mar 29, 2012)

I started probably 6 years ago in a civic hatch with dynamat.. worked well, too expensive...

I needed more for the same car down the road, so I found and picked up some b-stock audiotechnix 80mil.
Good stuff almost half the cost..

Enter my new accord...

I started by picking up more audiotechnix bstock 80 mil, did the doors, rear shelf, some of trunk...

9 months go by needed more... I go out on a limb and purchase GTmat... Cutting it up to go in the accord I realize this is not aluminum or should I say this is thinner then aluminum foil..glued to plastic/ seran wrap?!?!?! wow this is not what was described! 
I explained this to the company, their product is not aluminum but some cheap foil, they gave me my money back no questions asked, I even asked for an RA, they told me to keep the product.

Hmm, So i figure Il go back to audiotechnix...

LOL 12 sq ft come in of their "new" stuff...

It is identical to GTmat!!!! except with some black plastic over the foil...
Wow, what a shame... 

In hopes of more money I first handedly watched this company go down the drain...

Im using Stinger now to complete the project for ****s and giggles I orderd a couple sq ft from Raamaudio 60mil decent stuff kind of light and thin but its aluminum at least.
it seems quality has been done away with in hopes of the clueless customer purchase, If it cant slice my fingers up I dont want your plastic garbage...


Any similar experiences with their deadening company choice...?


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

SDS FTW.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

^ x2


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

No advertising without being a vendor


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

A good deadening job is a lot of work. To waste the job to save a few dollars on a less expensive product never made sense to me. I've always used Dynamat preferably Extreme and really not willing to try anything else. I don't find it that expensive comparatively and it works absolutely phenominal. Dynamat itself has improved greatly over the last 20 yrs. IMO they have perfected it, especially the adhesive. Adhesive is super strong yet not so strong you can't pull it off the panel. The aluminum thickness is perfect, just enough to help stiffen yet not so stiff where you can't cut and work with it. Just finished this yesterday speaking of deadener and man does it work!!!


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

After reading up on SDS numerous posts regarding effective / efficient sound deadening... I find it funny that so many still plaster the living snot out of every inch with foil backed sheets. The best results I got was from the MLV and CCF steps. Well placed CLD's matter more than quantity.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

rugdnit said:


> After reading up on SDS numerous posts regarding effective / efficient sound deadening... I find it funny that so many still plaster the living snot out of every inch with foil backed sheets. The best results I got was from the MLV and CCF steps. Well placed CLD's matter more than quantity.


^^^^
That!


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## SHAGGS (Apr 24, 2011)

rugdnit said:


> After reading up on SDS numerous posts regarding effective / efficient sound deadening... I find it funny that so many still plaster the living snot out of every inch with foil backed sheets. The best results I got was from the MLV and CCF steps. Well placed CLD's matter more than quantity.


Yup! I'd never even heard of MLV or CCF, before I joined this site. Thanks to SDS and this site, I've learned soooooooo much.
My first serious install, over a decade ago, I spent $700+ on Dyn. Extreme. 
I plastered every possible panel, and needless to say, was not happy at all when I could hardly tell the difference at highway speeds.
The only ones who want you to believe that you have to use it that way, are the ones who make/sell it.


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## _Nomad_ (Dec 11, 2012)

rugdnit said:


> After reading up on SDS numerous posts regarding effective / efficient sound deadening... I find it funny that so many still plaster the living snot out of every inch with foil backed sheets. The best results I got was from the MLV and CCF steps. Well placed CLD's matter more than quantity.





PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> ^^^^
> That!
> 
> 
> ...


^^^^^That x 2 !!!!

On my current Denali build I'm using Don's stuff at Sound Deadener Showdown. This stuff goes on FAST and I don't have to wrap the whole damn truck in it either. The MLV and CCF take some time though. I see wrapped vehicles now and think...how quaint, Fred Flintstone would be impressed.


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## redavalanche (Feb 18, 2008)

I dont understand why a few years ago you could get a roll, now everywhere sells these small sheets for 8 bucks a square foot. And dynamat xtreme 1.4 sq ft cost 30 bux.

Sorry my one and only experience with this was a 1/2 roll of BXT from Raamaudio for 49.50 circa 2008

LOL ignore


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

redavalanche said:


> I dont understand why a few years ago you could get a roll, now everywhere sells these small sheets for 8 bucks a square foot. And dynamat xtreme 1.4 sq ft cost 30 bux.
> 
> Sorry my one and only experience with this was a 1/2 roll of BXT from Raamaudio for 49.50 circa 2008
> 
> LOL ignore


I just paid 60 dollars for 12sq/ft of Dynamat Extreme. I recommend shopping around. 


SDS makes some good points and for many cases there is a sweet spot where more product will benefit very little. It's a cost versus performance issue. However, 25% coverage shouldn't be used as a blanket requirement for all scenario's. For a door holding a midbass driver, I'd still cover all that I could. I have 4 layers in my comp truck doors, each layer made a diff as I did each one at different times till I got the desired affect. The rest of the truck has about 20% coverage. The door card above, I listened as I covered to make sure I got all audible vibration out. Sometimes it takes 2 layers in area's and combination of other things. I also use pyramidal acoustic foam, closed cell foam, felt and rubber pads, rubber washers you'll notice on the retention clips etc in conjunction as well with great results. You do what it takes to achieve the desired results, which is no "audible" vibration. Sometimes it's as simple as wrapping a door cable in felt to prevent it vibrating against the door card. Efficient and effective deadening to me is in the details.


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## txfast (Nov 21, 2012)

Stinger Roadkll 36 sq ft box is $95 with free shipping for Amazon Prime members right now. Not sure how long that deal will last as its only through one vendor. I just ordered a second box, really liked the first box. Have been working on sound deadening in my 2013 Sonata and my wife's 2011 Elantra. That deal on Roadkill is easily the best deal I've found on a quality CLD. I liked working with it, it went on easily even in cool temps and has bonded very good to the surfaces that I've rechecked, especially the bottom side of the rear deck. I've used Dynamat Extreme in the past and the Roadkill is just as easy to work with. Specs are better for Roadkill, very similar specs to Damplifier Pro.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

redavalanche said:


> I dont understand why a few years ago you could get a roll, now everywhere sells these small sheets for 8 bucks a square foot. And dynamat xtreme 1.4 sq ft cost 30 bux.
> 
> Sorry my one and only experience with this was a 1/2 roll of BXT from Raamaudio for 49.50 circa 2008
> 
> LOL ignore


The newer beefier product is much better than the stuff you listed. Imagine tying to roll the beefier stuff up.. wouldn't work so well.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

rugdnit said:


> After reading up on SDS numerous posts regarding effective / efficient sound deadening... I find it funny that so many still plaster the living snot out of every inch with foil backed sheets. The best results I got was from the MLV and CCF steps. Well placed CLD's matter more than quantity.


So, you read it once and now believe it as the ultimate truth? Sure, if you are on a budget and can only afford a little damping product, then placement is vital. I've seen kids buy 2sqft of damping material for their doors and out 1sqft under each speaker as a 'gasket'. People do dump things. But in defense of those covering every square inch ...there ARE benefits ...it is mechanically / physically for it not to. If you are on a budget your $ would be better spent in buying enough CCF and MLV to cover every inch ...but if you can get a damping layer on everything it WILL be better, but there will be a point of diminishing returns.


I've been into car audio for close to 35 years and Dynamat (brand) is the ONLY damping product that has ever failed. It literally fell off of smooth vertical surfaces. I will never buy a Dynamat product again.

In defense of the 'cheaper' alternatives. I had some OLD FatMat that had the 'wax paper' separated from the material. The adhesive was barely sticky to the touch. I put approx a 1sqft. piece on the bottom side (hanging upside down) of some shelves in my old work van. It sat 2 summer sealed up in the baking Southern sun ...you can't pull it off. It is STUCK.


>^..^<


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Catman said:


> So, you read it once and now believe it as the ultimate truth? Sure, if you are on a budget and can only afford a little damping product, then placement is vital. I've seen kids buy 2sqft of damping material for their doors and out 1sqft under each speaker as a 'gasket'. People do dump things. But in defense of those covering every square inch ...there ARE benefits ...it is mechanically / physically for it not to. If you are on a budget your $ would be better spent in buying enough CCF and MLV to cover every inch ...but if you can get a damping layer on everything it WILL be better, but there will be a point of diminishing returns.
> 
> 
> I've been into car audio for close to 35 years and Dynamat (brand) is the ONLY damping product that has ever failed. It literally fell off of smooth vertical surfaces. I will never buy a Dynamat product again.
> ...


Well stated. Dynamat has failed me as we'll. My sheets in my inner doors fell down inside the doors, I was highly upset. That's a lot of trouble but then again that was 20yrs ago. Dynamat today is nothing compared to the old stuff.

Also agree there is a point of diminishing returns but where is that point?. Sometimes the panel requires 20% coverage, sometimes it takes 200%coverage. You just never know.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

Catman said:


> So, you read it once and now believe it as the ultimate truth?
> 
> 
> >^..^<


Good to hear you have 35 years experience. Prior to reading SDS's posts I had done several installs where I had used to multiple layers of CLD's and it was NOWHERE as effective as the using a combination of CLD's, MLV, and CCF ( some panels require more than others... NO ****? ). The point is the guys that have been in the business a long time may not always willing to tell you the truth and sell you a bunch of crap you don't need. You might get away with it when dealing with dumb kids, but generally... I prefer reading first. Does that cut into your profit margin?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

As other's have noted, there ARE "cheap" products that indeed, work well. Sound deadening is a subject so full of fan-boyism and misinformation, as to be completely forum flame war material at times, and digging through the FUD and ignorance can be challenging for someone new to the field.

Certainly, _some_ of the materials out there are overpriced...and may work say, somewhat better than a "cheap" alternative, but at twice the price or more...which one is the better deal? And some of the cheap materials hold up just as long as the overpriced ones.

I used a cheap, Home Depo material almost 3 years ago. When I took my doors apart to finish, and "do it right" a few weeks ago, that cheap stuff is stuck like chuck and has not fallen off, cracked, or failed in any way, and our summers BAKE in 95-105 days. I installed GTMat and it has worked wonderfully. I used plenty of it, yes, probably more than another thicker product might have required, but so what, the price is great and I can buy a ton of it cheaply and have plenty to deaden whatever I needed to, and have $ in my pocket. My doors are quiet, they don't ring, they don't rattle, they don't resonate, and my midbass is very present.

Is GTMAt Pro "high end" ? No. It wasn't intended to be. It is a cheaper alternative, that works well when applied correctly, and at the price, you can install double layers for WAY cheaper than a single layer of a higher end material. Someone said dynamat for $60 for 12ft², I can get 24 ft² of GTMat for that price. It has it's uses, it's price point, and I am a satisfied customer. GTMat has high end products, the Onyx line, that is still cheaper than dynamat.

To the OP- have you ever even tried using the GTMat or the other stuff? How do you know it won't work for your needs? How can you trash something you never used?


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## thisgsx (Mar 16, 2006)

You can also find FatMat Rattletrap 80mil on Amazon. See link below. I bought 150 sq ft of it and still trying to finish up my CRX. So far, it works just as good if not better than Raamat BXT I had in my previous car. Other than the smell, it's cheap and works just as good if not better. Leave your windows open and the smell should slowly fade away by a week. 


50 Sq Ft Rattle Trap FatMat 80 mil Bulk Pack Install Kit Included : Amazon.com : Automotive

**edit**

I also found that the 25% method used on SDS just doesn't cut it. I found that 80-90% was better for my rattle tin CRX. I did 25% on driver's door and 80-90% on passenger door and there is a huge difference in the way the door sounds when it is closed and when it is tapped on.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

RNBRAD said:


> ...Dynamat today is nothing compared to the old stuff.


The products may have changed ...but I was treated VERY rudely by Dynamat when I called them. I didn't call expecting them to give me more product. I just wanted to know what they recommended as an adhesive to reuse what I already had. They also found 'fault' with my cleaning of the surface before I installed the Dynamat. Inside doors I start off with brake cleaner, then alcohol on clean white rags until they show no sign of dirt. They then get a wipe down with acetone ....and a final wipe down with denatured alcohol. I then dry the surface thoroughly with a hair dryer.


Also, you are correct ....things have changed. There is NOW competition and Dynamat is still over priced.



rugdnit said:


> Good to hear you have 35 years experience. Prior to reading SDS's posts I had done several installs where I had used to multiple layers of CLD's and it was NOWHERE as effective as the using a combination of CLD's, MLV, and CCF ( some panels require more than others... NO ****? ).


I am glad SDS was put together. OTOH, it is simple physics ...it is not 'rocket science'. It shouldn't take a website to tell you that the center of a panel (that is supported around the edges) is where you will have the greatest resonance, so that is where you will get the greatest benefit if you can only afford a little material. 30 years ago I was getting my damping material from J.C. Whitney ...I was using carpet padding as a decoupler and would use lead sheeting instead of MLV. I understood the difference between a damping material and a sound blocker. I had a PNG / RTA as well as a (crude) anechoic chamber.



rugdnit said:


> ... The point is the guys that have been in the business a long time may not always willing to tell you the truth and sell you a bunch of crap you don't need. You might get away with it when dealing with dumb kids, but generally... I prefer reading first.


I don't think the "guys that have been in the business a long time" actually know what they are doing in most cases. I don't think they are trying to " sell you a bunch of crap you don't need". I honestly think they are just ignorant. They are going on what the mfgs are telling then. This is just one reason I refuse to support 'mom and pop' shops. In most cases they offer nothing that I need. 25 years ago multiple layers of damping material was what the mags all raved about. No one wanted to listen to a scientific approach.


>^..^<


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Another mass-debation on mass loading...










Sent from an other planet (Tapatalk)


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## LovesMusic (Mar 29, 2012)

Great Post^ Thank you for your contribution! :wacky:






therapture said:


> As other's have noted, there ARE "cheap" products that indeed, work well. Sound deadening is a subject so full of fan-boyism and misinformation, as to be completely forum flame war material at times, and digging through the FUD and ignorance can be challenging for someone new to the field.
> 
> Certainly, _some_ of the materials out there are overpriced...and may work say, somewhat better than a "cheap" alternative, but at twice the price or more...which one is the better deal? And some of the cheap materials hold up just as long as the overpriced ones.
> 
> ...



GTMat is garbage, Why is it garbage... bc they lie about the specs and details of their product...
Its one thing to be a cheap solution for someone like you, however it is a completely different story when they tell their customers they have a however many mil thickness of aluminum... I used maybe 2 sqft of it and wanted it out... lol you can rip the plastic "aluminum layer" off no problem... should speak for itself and your thoughts of the gtmat...

Btw I threw one or 2 pieces of roadkill over the GTmat I had on the passenger side floor, and nowwww it is deadened...


I think the point of the thread was to make aware any of those searching for cheaper solutions aware of the product they are looking at before they make a purchase. Had I known GTmat and now Audiotechnix were plastic deadening material I would have saved my money for stinger,sds, or that atlantic company quality mentioned...live and learn cant say I didnt ask for it buying cheap...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I respectfully disagree that the gtmat is junk. The silver is not plastic, a lighter will not burn it. It is obviously thin metal of some sort. 

So you never covered a panel completely with it? So you know, how, that of won't quieten down a panel effectively? I guess my doors are an anomaly since they are very well done with gtmat and do not resonate/vibrate/rattle. I spent less than half what dynamat would have cost, applied two layers, bought the liquidamp (also gtmat product) for my trunk, and had excellent results. Proof is in the pudding, and nobody would be able to tell the difference between materials unless they removed the door trim and looked.

No fanboy here. Just my real experience.


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## LovesMusic (Mar 29, 2012)

therapture said:


> I respectfully disagree that the gtmat is junk. The silver is not plastic, a lighter will not burn it. It is obviously thin metal of some sort.
> 
> So you never covered a panel completely with it? So you know, how, that of won't quieten down a panel effectively? I guess my doors are an anomaly since they are very well done with gtmat and do not resonate/vibrate/rattle. I spent less than half what dynamat would have cost, applied two layers, bought the liquidamp (also gtmat product) for my trunk, and had excellent results. Proof is in the pudding, and nobody would be able to tell the difference between materials unless they removed the door trim and looked.
> 
> No fanboy here. Just my real experience.


I love how I shear the gtmat and take pictures showing the irregular stress and strain it leaves unlike aluminum, and your defense is going to be telling me a lighter wont burn it...
How thick is the "silver" part?

Somebody got some free product...enough, funny how my "real experience" is completely opposite, I mustnt have used it properly..


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

LovesMusic said:


> I love how I shear the gtmat and take pictures showing the irregular stress and strain it leaves unlike aluminum, and your defense is going to be telling me a lighter wont burn it...
> How thick is the "silver" part?
> 
> Somebody got some free product...enough, funny how my "real experience" is completely opposite, I mustnt have used it properly..


you are delving into personal attack territory, you must think I am attacking you. I am not. I am telling the forum of MY experience, and offering a counter point. I am not, and have no intention of, getting into a flame war with you. Why are you mad at me? Who got free product?

And the fact is a lighter will not burn it. The silver/foil/whatever is not very thick. Does it matter much? Certainly some, but the product works...?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

thisgsx said:


> You can also find FatMat Rattletrap 80mil on Amazon. See link below. I bought 150 sq ft of it and still trying to finish up my CRX. So far, it works just as good if not better than Raamat BXT I had in my previous car. Other than the smell, it's cheap and works just as good if not better. Leave your windows open and the smell should slowly fade away by a week.
> 
> 
> 50 Sq Ft Rattle Trap FatMat 80 mil Bulk Pack Install Kit Included : Amazon.com : Automotive
> ...



You can get the exact same prices from FatMat directly.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

thisgsx said:


> You can also find FatMat Rattletrap 80mil on Amazon. See link below. I bought 150 sq ft of it and still trying to finish up my CRX. So far, it works just as good if not better than Raamat BXT I had in my previous car. Other than the smell, it's cheap and works just as good if not better. Leave your windows open and the smell should slowly fade away by a week.
> 
> 
> 50 Sq Ft Rattle Trap FatMat 80 mil Bulk Pack Install Kit Included : Amazon.com : Automotive
> ...


 
Rattle trap is a horrible product. I used this and am regretting it. The foil is sliding off in the heat. Next time I have my door panel off I can take pics but this stuff is just not that good. I have pulled some of it up and what is left is thin 1/8" lines with 1/4" gaps. The 1/8" lines are the adheasive parts of this stuff. So it is not completely even sticking to the material. 

Back to the foil. It is about as thick as heavy duty aluminum foil. It is not adding any value other then keeping the asphalt off of you as you install it. It mostly is for looks. 

I have now switched over to Alpha Damp which has actual aluminum on the top that if folded over becomes like a beam and makes the item very rigid. I used it on foam and once I folded the AD over the edge and onto the backside the foam became very structurally rigid. Plus the entire butyl surface is adhearing to the metal or plastic. 

Bottom line products like Fatmat/Rattle trap have to be doubled up or even trippled up to get the same effect that products like Alpha Damp do in one application so the price savings becomes moot.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

LovesMusic said:


> I love how I shear the gtmat and take pictures showing the irregular stress and strain it leaves unlike aluminum, and your defense is going to be telling me a lighter wont burn it...
> How thick is the "silver" part?
> 
> Somebody got some free product...enough, funny how my "real experience" is completely opposite, I mustnt have used it properly..


Also, I never said you didn't use it correctly, just that you didn't use it to treat an entire panel, since you hated it and stopped using it. I don't know anything about your scientific strain and stress test. I just know that if you peel the silver backing away, and hit it with a flame from a cig lighter...it does not burn...unlike plastic, which will indeed burn.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

thisgsx said:


> I also found that the 25% method used on SDS just doesn't cut it. I found that 80-90% was better for my rattle tin CRX. I did 25% on driver's door and 80-90% on passenger door and there is a huge difference in the way the door sounds when it is closed and when it is tapped on.


 
This proves my point perfectly. Use a cheap product to save money but then use MORE of it to accomplish the same thing. You did not save money in the end truthfully.


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## powpow2pavement (Feb 22, 2012)

25% coverage with Second Skin products has made noticeable difference in my vehicle (rear hatch door needed a bit more).


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

Catman said:


> I am glad SDS was put together. OTOH, it is simple physics ...it is not 'rocket science'. It shouldn't take a website to tell you that the center of a panel (that is supported around the edges) is where you will have the greatest resonance, so that is where you will get the greatest benefit if you can only afford a little material. 30 years ago I was getting my damping material from J.C. Whitney ...I was using carpet padding as a decoupler and would use lead sheeting instead of MLV. I understood the difference between a damping material and a sound blocker. I had a PNG / RTA as well as a (crude) anechoic chamber.
> 
> In case you missed it... That was part of my point. I stand by my comment that I find it funny that for all the info out there many still plaster the **** out of their vehicle. Should be a little common sense. There have been more than a few build logs over the last year where the interior was gutted and the entire floor was tiled twice over. Not sure if you saw any of those or chose to single me out in yet another DIYMA dick swinging contest.
> 
> ...


This topic has been debated to death. If you feel like you want to be the master.... be my guest. I just landed in Boston and have real work to do. Good day!


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Another mass-debation on mass loading...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RIGHT? Some people are just a bag of dicks.


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## thisgsx (Mar 16, 2006)

07azhhr said:


> *Rattle trap is a horrible product. I used this and am regretting it. The foil is sliding off in the heat. Next time I have my door panel off I can take pics but this stuff is just not that good. I have pulled some of it up and what is left is thin 1/8" lines with 1/4" gaps. The 1/8" lines are the adheasive parts of this stuff. So it is not completely even sticking to the material. *
> 
> Back to the foil. It is about as thick as heavy duty aluminum foil. It is not adding any value other then keeping the asphalt off of you as you install it. It mostly is for looks.
> 
> ...


Summer's fast approaching, I'll soon find out.


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## thisgsx (Mar 16, 2006)

07azhhr said:


> This proves my point perfectly. Use a cheap product to save money but then use MORE of it to accomplish the same thing. You did not save money in the end truthfully.


Your point would've been proven correctly had I used SecondSkin on one door and FatMat on the other door. I didn't so it is pretty much a moot point. Like I said though, it works just as good, if not better than Raamat BXT, the one product I've used in the past and one that I can compare to. It's hard to tell since it's been a couple years since I sold that car. But from what I recall, BXT did its job, however, I did cover 100% of the inner and outer doors. One thing I didn't like about Raamat BXT was how gooey it was. 

I'm praising FatMat now, but who knows, from what you're telling me I could be starting a new thread in the middle of the summer complaining about how inferior FatMat really is.....


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Surely someone has a home dampening recipe? Silly Putty and Reynolds Wrap (Silly Wrap) lol. Might just work better than some of this stuff.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

thisgsx said:


> Your point would've been proven correctly had I used SecondSkin on one door and FatMat on the other door. I didn't so it is pretty much a moot point. Like I said though, it works just as good, if not better than Raamat BXT, the one product I've used in the past and one that I can compare to. It's hard to tell since it's been a couple years since I sold that car. But from what I recall, BXT did its job, however, I did cover 100% of the inner and outer doors. One thing I didn't like about Raamat BXT was how gooey it was.
> 
> I'm praising FatMat now, but who knows, from what you're telling me I could be starting a new thread in the middle of the summer complaining about how inferior FatMat really is.....


It is not just about the foil coming off. The foil on the Fatmat is just that "FOIL". It adds no benefit other then looks and keeping your fingers cleaner. Basically Fatmat is only added mass but no added stiffness.

The Aluminum on products like Alpha Damp are very rigid and stiff. This allows these products to be both added mass and added stiffness. I wish I still had a unused large piece of Rattle trap to demo this for you but I do not so words will have to do. 

Take a piece of 1/2" CCF like the floor puzzle looking type you can get at Harbor Freight that is say 10" x 10". Now put Fatmat on it on both sides with one side extending out past the edges so that you can fold it over the sides and onto the other side. Basiccally making a U on all sides with the larger piece of Fatmat. Now do the same with a product like Alpha Damp. Once both are complete try flexing them. The Fatmat one will have a lot of flexability still. The Alpha Damp one will have very very little flex. 

The above example is why you need much less with a product like Alpha Damp then with a product like Fatmat.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Like 07 mentions, I really think stiffness is key, more so than just adding density but combining the two is optimal. I don't think a person should just put a tile in the middle of a flexible panel and call it good. I think the key is bridging the flexible panel between two structural support area's. That's the main reason I'm not sold on individual tiles cause they can't do that as well. I think anything is better than nothing, but I think if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.


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## fuzzcar (Nov 18, 2012)

Second Skin Audio Damplifier Pro has always been good for me.


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

07azhhr said:


> It is not just about the foil coming off. The foil on the Fatmat is just that "FOIL". It adds no benefit other then looks and keeping your fingers cleaner.* Basically Fatmat is only added mass but no added stiffness.
> *
> The Aluminum on products like Alpha Damp are very rigid and stiff. This allows these products to be both added mass and added stiffness. I wish I still had a unused large piece of Rattle trap to demo this for you but I do not so words will have to do.
> 
> ...


This. It's also another reason I try to use as big of a baffle as possible. I like using HDPE Starboard for a nice rigid baffle.


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## LovesMusic (Mar 29, 2012)

From a properties standpoint..
we can either absorb or reflect sound however it loves a medium to travel through..
wave a piece of paper through the air, listen to all the different Hz's its capable of producing through this medium...

adding rigid mass will most likely limit these hz's that can now no longer be produced

(What I gather)Regarding fatmat, audiotechnix, gtmat: if we put them on this "piece of paper" I bet we are able to still produce many more Hz then our rigid mass...as if we stuck some chewing gum on this paper...


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

LovesMusic said:


> From a properties standpoint..
> we can either absorb or reflect sound however it loves a medium to travel through..
> wave a piece of paper through the air, listen to all the different Hz's its capable of producing through this medium...
> 
> ...


For these products it is actually the process of LOWERING the resonant frequency of the panel when it vibrates. So it is neither an absorbtion or reflection property for CLD. Making something heavier (adding mass) means it will have a lower resonant frequency. Stiffening the same object also lowers the resonant frequency but does it by making it harder to flex the object in question. When something is hard to flex it usually has a very very low resonant frequency or does not have an audible (to humans) resonance at all if it is stiff enough. The combo of the two gives you more dampening then one or the other by themselves. Well that is until you get some bar stock and weld it in there to make it completely rigid lol.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

This is a pic of a sheet of AD. This is 10.4"x14.4". I actually tried shaking it up and down with it held just like this just prior to taking the pic to see if it would bend.
As you can see it did not. Try this with Fatmat using a similar size sheet. It will go limp before you even get to try to shake it.

Oh and about the absorbtion and reflection. The reflection or possibly rejection is what MLV is used for. Absorbtion in a car will only work for very high frequencies and is just not really practicle to implement. So use the CLD and butyl rope for rattle prevention. Use MLV to reflect/reject noise coming in and going out. The CCF layer is simply to prevent the MLV from rattling on the panels that it is covering.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

It's rigid, but looks to be very thin?


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## rugdnit (Dec 24, 2007)

RNBRAD said:


> It's rigid, but looks to be very thin?


Is that bad? Door Card Fitment Tolerances can get tight when layering the 3 materials up.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

rugdnit said:


> Is that bad? Door Card Fitment Tolerances can get tight when layering the 3 materials up.


I would prefer a thicker underside. Tolerances can be tight in areas but not that tight. Dynamat Extreme is easy to flatten in areas of tight tolerance. So thickness can vary where needed. I'm betting though from the pick that DE is 3 to 4 x thicker.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

60mil The piece is tilted slightly down so you really can't see the butyl in the pic. But it is slightly thinner then the 80mil Rattle trap but does so much better. I actually thought it looked very thin too when I first looked at it. I remember thinking HMMM for xxx price really? Then I used it and my impression changed completely.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

It's really a synergistic effect of both properties.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

RNBRAD said:


> It's really a synergistic effect of both properties.


Exactly. You mentioned DE being 3-4x as thick which works too. It is just a different approach. That DE sounds like they add massive mass lol while AD stiffens and adds mass. Both work. Both have premium costs associated with them too. If you use Fatmat to save money you end up using more of it to get the same results as these products give and thus reduce the savings if not eliminate them.

Also because the AD is butyl it is sticky on the entire surface as opposed to Fatmat/Rattle Trap that has adheasive lines with gaps between each line. Rattle Trap is supposed to be the stickiest product Fatmat makes and yet it is still not sticky across the entire surface.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So much misinformation.

Mass is not the goal. The goal is the properties of the actual viscoelastic layer, allowing it to deform and return to shape slower, turning the energy from the vibration into heat. This is why asphalt doesn't work as well as a butyl based deadener. Asphalt is just a mass loader, which lowers resonant frequency, but doesn't reduce the amplitude much. You would need to match the weight of the panel your deadening to reduce the vibration amplitude by 3db, with a soft substance like asphalt deadening. 

The constraining layer tries to prevent the butyl from moving the the first place, further damping the vibrations.

Also, it was posted that stiffening decreases the resonant frequency. That is not correct, stiffening increases the resonant frequency, while lowering the amplitude of the resonance. 




For those that are interested, this weekend I will be starting to set up a test using an accelerometer, to find what deadener works best, cost be damned, and then you all can compare based on price. It will still take about 2 months to get everything together and test. If anyone has deadener that they want to donate, that would be awesome, if not, it will still happen, it will just take longer. I'll try anything someone wants me to try. I'll also test the "25% coverage" rule and see just how effective it is. I just ask that any pieces to be sent are at least 6x6", bigger preferable. I only need a couple pieces of each type. I will get some alphadamp on my own, and maybe the sds ones, then see what people volunteer. I'll start a thread in the review forum this weekend.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So much misinformation.
> 
> Mass is not the goal. The goal is the properties of the actual viscoelastic layer, allowing it to deform and return to shape slower, turning the energy from the vibration into heat. This is why asphalt doesn't work as well as a butyl based deadener. Asphalt is just a mass loader, which lowers resonant frequency, but doesn't reduce the amplitude much. You would need to match the weight of the panel your deadening to reduce the vibration amplitude by 3db, with a soft substance like asphalt deadening.
> 
> ...


That's correct. If mass was the goal we would be sticking sheets of lead to our doors. I have seen thin sheets of lead with a viscoeleastic layer and it incredibly effective!! It's for industrial use and not very practical for a car. I'm sure SPL guys have used it.

On the other hand it would be nice to see a test done in a real world scenario.

Also I looked at the thickness of the Dynamat Extreme. It's not as thick as I originally thought. It's about 1/16" on the tape.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

My $.03 on this one. If you get product A for $100 for 50 feet and product B for $100 for 100 feet to do the same job (and B weighs 50% more) to get the same performance.

You are paying to drag that 50% more of weight around every time you gas up. If you are doing a lot of sound deadener, that can add up over the life of your car if you put on mileage.

Juan


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## fast4door (Aug 2, 2012)

I used raammat a few years ago on a Mustang build and had good results then I used Fatmat on a F150 and got about the same results . I think it has a lot to do with the installation process and if you take the time to do the best you can with what you got.


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## thisgsx (Mar 16, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So much misinformation.
> 
> Mass is not the goal. The goal is the properties of the actual viscoelastic layer, allowing it to deform and return to shape slower, turning the energy from the vibration into heat. This is why asphalt doesn't work as well as a butyl based deadener. Asphalt is just a mass loader, which lowers resonant frequency, but doesn't reduce the amplitude much. You would need to match the weight of the panel your deadening to reduce the vibration amplitude by 3db, with a soft substance like asphalt deadening.
> 
> ...


I'm interested in this. Where in CA are you? I can donate some rattletrap and I believe I still have some leftover Raamat BXT that I haven't touched in a couple of years.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Im in Visalia, (between bakersfield and fresno) although I do go to the socal DIYMA meets. It would be interesting to test some old BXT vs new BXT, to see how age affects it.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

I think the quality of sound deadener* users *has gone down


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## thisgsx (Mar 16, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Im in Visalia, (between bakersfield and fresno) although I do go to the socal DIYMA meets. It would be interesting to test some old BXT vs new BXT, to see how age affects it.


Pm me your address. I'll ship it out. When are you planning on doing this?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

toostubborn-

I'll ship you some GTMat Pro, what I used in my doors...PM your mailer and I'll drop you a square, just tell me what size.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm hoping to get this done in early may. I have to get enough pieces of sheet metal for each deadener that I test, since applying deadener and pulling it off will likely change the resonant frequency of the metal, through bending it. I'll PM you guys today.


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

PM me your address I'll send a sample box of all our STP's product.


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