# How to do SQ with "hair tricks"??



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

As silly as the title is, I have a request to build a high clarity, high quality sounding vehicle with the potential to do, as he says, "hair tricks". 

I can only assume he wants me to make a vehicle that can get very loud on command, but stay subdued and natural normally.

Now I've almost always been focused on the SQ side of things, so I'm out of my element a bit. I'd throw this question into the SPL forum but honestly I don't want to compromise one bit on the SQ of this system. The other issue is cost: I've got a grand to deal with.

Car is a 2010 Nissan Sentra.

So far I've ordered up a set of PG RSd components, we'll run those active for the front stage. For deadening I'm going to use Don's stuff, and some RAAMmat BXTII, and of course CCF/MLV.

We've got a pre-existing 3sixty.2, and I'll probably use that to integrate the factory HU as far as I can (and if I have to I'll swap the HU.)

So obviously the substage is what its all about here. I mainly try to build sealed boxes to use cabin gain to my advantage (relatively flat response) and retain as much trunk space as possible. But a car this small, and a request that big tells me I'm going to need some seriously well-tuned ported box. 

One question I have for the Gurus of porting... I noticed passive radiators might solve the problem better given there are no massive ports to worry about, and tuning is just using weights until happy w/ the overall output. Is there any con to use a PR vs. a port when it comes to sound quality (lag on certain notes, etc)? I would imagine not but sometimes the modeling programs just don't show the real truth so I figured I'd ask.

That said, how about a Shiva X2 w/ a pair of 15" PR's from Exodus?

Any other ideas? The PG RSDc subs were on my list but they have become more scarce since last time I was in the hunt.

I've got some space for a box, but nothing too crazy. I think I can fit a 36x16x12" box in there. That appears to be 4 cubes w/ my quick math. I figure that leads to ~3.5 usable cubes or so worth of a box, plus some polyfil of course.

Probably going with Soundstream D-Tower 4ch and 1400W mono sub amp for power.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

If I recall, the downside to PR's is they roll off faster than even ported enclosures do. The issue I see here is total lack of budget. Hair tricks could be accomplished, but even designing a fart box there is not enough woofer or power. My sons set up includes 4 of the PG RSdC 10" and 2 sets of the RSd 6" components. With the box huge, tuning high and 1500 watts on tap, it would flutter a t-shirt pretty well at the front windows. SQ was adequate for him and it did sound ok. Just a bit bass heavy .

Anyway, I think you can do a reasonable SQL vehicle on that budget. Just doubtful on hair trick capability


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I have built him a few systems in the past, and the last system was lacking heavily due to what I suspect was some surprise cancellation effects. And I think that sets up the expectation for outstandingly powerful bass. 

With the D-Tower, I'll have ~1100-1300W on tap at 1ohm. His last system had 500W PPI DCX 500.1, and I don't think we ever clipped it audibly. I think its more to do with the right box alignment. I think if I shift from a tight sealed box to something ported I'll get the gain he wants at the right frequency. Or PR. 

Damn ports are LOOOONG when I model them.


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## Robin W. (Feb 18, 2010)

What about a "sealed" box with removable port plugs that gives you the best of both worlds? Or some form of motorized door to plug/unplug the port.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I doubt I'll be able to describe this properly, and when I get home I'll reinforce it with a Googlesketch 3D rendering... but...

Is there any disadvantage to having the port exit run across the subwoofer baffle? Is there any cancellation or summing that results? What I mean is, say I run the subwoofer baffle at an angle, and the sub slot port uses the sub baffle as its chamfered, slightly curved exit.

Example: Say a subwoofer is facing the front of the car from the trunk rear seat opening. It is at an angle semi-parallel to the back seat. A slot port could exit on top, and possibly share the angle of the subwoofer baffle and create a smooth integrated exit for the port. Does this enhance or adversely affect the tuning?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Simple, use all SQ stuff, just use a lot of it.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Robin W. said:


> What about a "sealed" box with removable port plugs that gives you the best of both worlds? Or some form of motorized door to plug/unplug the port.



I missed when you posted this... 

It isn't a bad idea, but implementation may be much harder than the thought of it. I'll think on this and see if that's doable.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> Simple, use all SQ stuff, just use a lot of it.



That may be possible, but I have limited resources with regards to space, money, and time. I recognize that something's got to give to get the request completed.


Thinking on this, what pair of subs would be strong contenders for a slot port, say tuned 28-32hz, in a box approx 3 cubes + port? Any stand-out performers? Dayton HO12's come to mind, but their excursion isn't outstanding.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

fourthmeal said:


> I missed when you posted this...
> 
> It isn't a bad idea, but implementation may be much harder than the thought of it. I'll think on this and see if that's doable.


At work we have environmental chambers that use round rubber plugs. They are 3” on the bottom, 3.5” on the top and 1.5” deep. They probably come in other sizes as well. When inserted they are airtight and stay in pretty good. You can fabricate a bracket with wing nuts to holdem in place if need be. Just an idea…


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I want to explore this semi-horn loading thing I've got in my head.

I need to break out the WinISD when I get home, but maybe a pair of JBL GTO's (10-12") ported out might get it done.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

fourth, sent you a PM


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## jearhart (Jul 28, 2006)

cubdenno said:


> Anyway, I think you can do a reasonable SQL vehicle on that budget. Just doubtful on hair trick capability


2x!! Hair tricks in a trunk car are difficult even with a nearly unlimited budget and no regard for sq. I've had a pair of 12s sealed with 2000+rms and they would make my passenger seat wave back and forth about 2 inches on certain songs, and yet still not even close to a hair trick.

I think you need to tell your friend that his expectations are a little unreasonable. He can surely get loud but I just dont think a hair trick is gunna happen


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## DarkScorpion (Nov 22, 2009)

There's also the possibility that _his _concept of SQ is much less refined than _your _concept of SQ. In this case, I think you have the option of picking up a pair of subs that's more output oriented than SQ, but still sound great. 

Does that amp put out 1400w at 1ohm? Have you already purchased it? There are a few boners over at CA that really ARE worthy of being used for SQ. The MB Quart DSC2000.1D, namely. 2000w for $300, and good SQ imo. I have the DSC1500.1 and DSC4125, and they're simply _awesome _for only ~$350 combined.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Grizz has been kind to me regarding Soundstream products, ready to answer all my questions and provide the level of support I never expected from a brand I've never run. So I went and purchased the D-towers (or rather had my customer my bro-in-law purchase them) and they're on their way. And yes, it should do pretty close to rated. It was recently tested at PASmag

Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Test Report: SOUNDSTREAM DTR1.1400D

But I figured 1000W usable is what I'll get, given that 14.4v isn't always available.

I've also explained what "hair tricks" means and what it takes. I got a more clear answer from him and it is simply to be very loud when he wants to be, loud enough to clearly overpower the senses and wear a ****-eating grin. And I think I can deliver that with the right sub combo. I'm leaning very hard towards high efficiency 15's in a sealed box, firing toward the cabin behind the rear seat. Possibly a pair 12's ported, just weighing my options.

For the money and the power, the JBL options are sounding mighty tasty. They run only ~$130 a PAIR for GTO's. I just need to get home and break out WinISD and run them against a known setup I've tried before. That way I can at least feel out just how much more SPL I can expect. I bet if I get 10dB louder than I've built for him before, he will be a very happy person.


Back to the slot port, does the shared baffle-port thing sound feasible?


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## DarkScorpion (Nov 22, 2009)

fourthmeal said:


> Grizz has been kind to me regarding Soundstream products, ready to answer all my questions and provide the level of support I never expected from a brand I've never run. So I went and purchased the D-towers (or rather had my customer my bro-in-law purchase them) and they're on their way. And yes, it should do pretty close to rated. It was recently tested at PASmag
> 
> Performance Auto and Sound - The Girls - The Cars - The Life - Test Report: SOUNDSTREAM DTR1.1400D
> 
> ...


Sorry, I worded my question poorly. I meant to ask if the amp puts out 1400w at _1ohm_, not necessarily if it does rated power. The reason for asking was because if you're going to run your amp at 1-ohm, it tells me that you're willing to compromise a bit as far as SQ is concerned. 

I definitely like the idea of a pair of 12's or 15's, but I feel a ported setup would be better for him if he wants to pull off a hair trick. The JBL's are definitely looking better and better...


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

DarkScorpion said:


> Sorry, I worded my question poorly. I meant to ask if the amp puts out 1400w at _1ohm_, not necessarily if it does rated power. The reason for asking was because if you're going to run your amp at 1-ohm, it tells me that you're willing to compromise a bit as far as SQ is concerned.
> 
> I definitely like the idea of a pair of 12's or 15's, but I feel a ported setup would be better for him if he wants to pull off a hair trick. The JBL's are definitely looking better and better...


Yeah 2ohms might also do it, the amp is rated at 900W in that form. I'm fairly sure the difference will be inaudible between a 2ohm or 1ohm configuration though.


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> Back to the slot port, does the shared baffle-port thing sound feasible?



I'm very interested in this.. but I can't picture it.. where is the sketch you promised us?


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

for that little in cash you'd be better off finding some used gear. 

either a pair of 15's or maybe even 18's if you can fit them. ported tuned to 45hz or 33hz if you want SQ. IF and that's a BIG IF space permits. 

id fire them towards the trunk not towards the seat....


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Abaddon said:


> I'm very interested in this.. but I can't picture it.. where is the sketch you promised us?



I'm working on it now actually. Playing through all the different JBL subs, looking for the right combo.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Ahh... the joy of surprise classifieds at DIYMA. There is a fellow selling BNIB Alchemy MX subs, a trio of them. I think that's our golden ticket.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Not a chance in hell of doing a hair trick from the trunk with those subs.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Not a chance in hell of doing a hair trick from the trunk with those subs.


Agreed.

But they can still get louder than anything he's ever played with. For $200 I'd buy them from him if he didn't fall in love.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I'll betcha you cannot find a system that will do a hair trick on me.


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## Abaddon (Aug 28, 2007)

chad said:


> I'll betcha you cannot find a system that will do a hair trick on me.


Get enough air moving and ALL the hair on you starts moving.. not just the visible stuff



*Apologies to everyone for putting the image of Chad's naked body into their minds*


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I think he just wants to feel it in his chest, to be able to really get up there in output. I've always constructed more subdued, more matched systems for him in the past, but he's gunning for MOAR this time.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> I think he just wants to feel it in his chest, to be able to really get up there in output. I've always constructed more subdued, more matched systems for him in the past, but he's gunning for MOAR this time.


Why not contact Credence and pick up some Lanzar LC10s or LC12s backstock? Those are the original design from Lanzar Sound. $80 shipped for 4 tens that were $100 each back in the say is tempting for anyone on a budget that wants to see some hair fly.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I had 3 ID Max 12s in my Accord that was within 2 dB from like 15-55 hertz...in the lower 140 dB range.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I've decided to push forward with the Alumapro's. I'm building this:


















Something like that maybe.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> Why not contact Credence and pick up some Lanzar LC10s or LC12s backstock? Those are the original design from Lanzar Sound. $80 shipped for 4 tens that were $100 each back in the say is tempting for anyone on a budget that wants to see some hair fly.


you understand I sat for a while in modeling software to find out that 4 of the 12's in a 12CuFt box, with a 6" hole cut in 3/4" stock is pretty damn flat with a -3 of 35 cycles, with a little vented box EQ and a HPF you can get it to 30 cycles. Aven cooler is that at 150 watts per driver and 300 max it makes 124dB and 127/respectively...... ANECHOIC, no half or quarter space loading.

You also understand that I spent 3 hours last night drinking, trying to hold myself back from hitting the paypal button for 86 dollars and 23 cents. And that if tonight I do this and fall to temptation and I build a mind-melting 4X12 enclosure that YOU will most certainly be on my wife's ****-list. If I go a step further and build a PAIR of shop speakers with 4X12's each and a set of horns... you WILL be on the TOP of her ****-list.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

CHAD, just the man I wanted to look at the box idea I had above. Thoughts? Does a wedge-load like that have any usable benefit / detraction from a traditional box? My thoughts say yes but I've not done it before.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

the only thing that concerns me is the pressure gradient in the chamber between the front and back. the rear of the enclosure will have more pressure on the cones and could cause issues or premature failure.

I think Cub knows the rules for this.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Oh ****, we don't want that. I thought it would be like a horn. Haha, love to be wrong.

What to do, are there some rules of engagement as far as what distances?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

chad said:


> you understand I sat for a while in modeling software to find out that 4 of the 12's in a 12CuFt box, with a 6" hole cut in 3/4" stock is pretty damn flat with a -3 of 35 cycles, with a little vented box EQ and a HPF you can get it to 30 cycles. Aven cooler is that at 150 watts per driver and 300 max it makes 124dB and 127/respectively...... ANECHOIC, no half or quarter space loading.
> 
> You also understand that I spent 3 hours last night drinking, trying to hold myself back from hitting the paypal button for 86 dollars and 23 cents. And that if tonight I do this and fall to temptation and I build a mind-melting 4X12 enclosure that YOU will most certainly be on my wife's ****-list. If I go a step further and build a PAIR of shop speakers with 4X12's each and a set of horns... you WILL be on the TOP of her ****-list.


You might as well, this week I'm in for (8) 12's for the bed of my Ranger  I spent a mind blowing $166.50  Stupidly ridiculous. I helped a buddy build a wall for the exact same subs in 1993 and he spent $1500


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## supermaxx123 (Apr 3, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Oh ****, we don't want that. I thought it would be like a horn. Haha, love to be wrong.
> 
> What to do, are there some rules of engagement as far as what distances?


as far as horns go, that wont do it. The length would need to be much longer. A horn enclosure might not fit in that space even for 1 12. Hair tricks require lots of power and cone area. i would say no less tha 3000rms, I've not tried this but being in cars that run about 1.5krms and feeling it, i think more power is needed. plus, there isn't sq in that region of db's.


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## eggyhustles (Sep 18, 2008)

hairtricks take alot of cone area and power

It's gonna be difficult to do in a small sedan


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yes I know the enclosure I designed is not a true horn. But will it make any difference to the performance by doing something like that vs. just a simple box facing the seats?


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## supermaxx123 (Apr 3, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Yes I know the enclosure I designed is not a true horn. But will it make any difference to the performance by doing something like that vs. just a simple box facing the seats?


horns are worth it if your illing to sacrafice space, they will get loud wil less cone area/ power. A transmission line would be the best sq IMO.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I just want to build him a nice box for these Alumapros.

Is there anything I can do to optimize these? Other than the obvious "build the box tough, and correctly" because that's going to happen regardless.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> I just want to build him a nice box for these Alumapros.
> 
> Is there anything I can do to optimize these? Other than the obvious "build the box tough, and correctly" because that's going to happen regardless.


If the goal is still to move alot of air I'd port them and tune low. The extra ouput will go unnoticed on rock music and stuff that doesn't have alot of lower 30hzish info. However, once you put on something like white girl, you'll notice a MAJOR difference.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

T3mpest said:


> If the goal is still to move alot of air I'd port them and tune low. The extra ouput will go unnoticed on rock music and stuff that doesn't have alot of lower 30hzish info. However, once you put on something like white girl, you'll notice a MAJOR difference.



Alumapro recommends specifically against porting these drivers according to the manual.


I have modeled it, and it takes at least 6 cubes of space to get a clean response at ~30hz. 

He listens to mostly trance/house and some rap/hiphop. 

I can't model excursion plots so I can't tell where the X-max is based on the box size. I can only play off what Alumapro says in their manual (.75 cubes) and just polyfil stuff for a little extra f3.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> Alumapro recommends specifically against porting these drivers according to the manual.
> 
> 
> I have modeled it, and it takes at least 6 cubes of space to get a clean response at ~30hz.
> ...


Yeah sealed there's not much you can do. I'd still model your sealed box and make sure your using all your available xmax with the power you have. Also, subs that like a sealed enclosure would work in a 4th order bandpass, if you want to get tricky......


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

fourthmeal said:


> But will it make any difference to the performance by doing something like that vs. just a simple box facing the seats?


You should do some experiments w/ placement before committing to your design, as I'm sure you know, woofers facing the lid usually nets more output.

'Twould be a shame to build that thing only find that a_ regular _box facing back would have given more volume.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Knobby Digital said:


> You should do some experiments w/ placement before committing to your design, as I'm sure you know, woofers facing the lid usually nets more output.
> 
> 'Twould be a shame to build that thing only find that a_ regular _box facing back would have given more volume.


this. With a sealed enclosure your only real trick for more ouput is coupling it to the environment. I know in my car, getting it next to the trunk lid actually gains me more db's than simply porting, at least vs putting it in the middle of my trunk.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

You are right about needing to experiment. I'll be sure to do it. Last time I built one facing backward, I ended up with very lackluster response, so I'm timid to do it again. My experience lies in SUV's, hatches, and trucks. There are no trunks in those builds, so I'm weak in experience there. Sure I've done quick basic sub setups in a bunch of cars at Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City, but for systems I actually give a hoot about...I just don't have much experience w/ sedan/coupe trunk-based setups.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Another design I've drafted up:

























Still working on others, totally open to design ideas.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I think you need to do (2) 12's in an Isobaric setup. You could use smaller airspace behind the subs and tune in the middle. Closed 3 sides, open 4th side design. No porting. Tune by distance between the subs. (not wasting time to draw it out so explaining it). It'll be quick and can handle power since the sealed sides are small, and it'll go low from the tune in the middle.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> I think you need to do (2) 12's in an Isobaric setup. You could use smaller airspace behind the subs and tune in the middle. Closed 3 sides, open 4th side design. No porting. Tune by distance between the subs. (not wasting time to draw it out so explaining it). It'll be quick and can handle power since the sealed sides are small, and it'll go low from the tune in the middle.



Subs are already purchased. Trio of Alumapro MX10's, DVC 6.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

(image doesn't work)


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Based on my limited understanding of horn loading, none of these designs are gonna perform better than a standard sealed. Maybe worse. I've tried downfiring in my car and it truly sucked. I cut the legs off the enclosure and used it as a standard rectangular box.

If you're absolutely trying to eek the last SPL outta this thing, I agree with audiogodz that you should look into a bandpass alignment. Even at the cost of using less wooferage if you can't afford any more trunk space for the enclosure. Of course, this depends on how low you want this thing to go, but there's no low (and I mean LOLO) to be gained w/ a horn or BP that'll fit in a car TMK.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OK, new plan:

The Credence site, these puppies will cost me $60.00+ a whopping $45.73 in shipping to get to my door for a pack of 4 of them. I will take the Alumapros for my own SQ build, and make 4 of these fit in as big a box as I can.

The question, is that worth $105.73 to do it?


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

With your budget constraints, you're really walking the line with this "SQL" thing.

WTF does that even mean? How are we to balance out the SQ with the L?

How low do you want to go? I know you said trance, techo, whatever, but I listen to a lot of hip-hop, and to most people that means booming ass 40-60hz bass, **** the rest. But personally, that doesn't mean **** to me. I want 20hz to seem/appear/feel/sound as loud as 40.


...And sorry if I was ornery, but with a pair of sealed 12"s, you've already drowned your front stage like a tragic bukkake accident. If you've got 4-5 cf to use and you want output *and* extension, vent a pair of 12"s or a single 15" and call it a day.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> The question, is that worth $105.73 to do it?


The answer to that is always yes.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> OK, new plan:
> 
> The Credence site, these puppies will cost me $60.00+ a whopping $45.73 in shipping to get to my door for a pack of 4 of them. I will take the Alumapros for my own SQ build, and make 4 of these fit in as big a box as I can.
> 
> The question, is that worth $105.73 to do it?


I still have the RSDC subs. 
Port the pair of 10s, give em 1000w, and call it a day.

Cone area will be greater with the 4 12s, but box will be pretty big in an already small trunk. I had a Sentra for a small amount of time, and to keep any trunk space you need to stay much smaller than the box would allow. If not a concern then it will be worth the 105 bucks.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> The answer to that is always yes.



Am I getting false info when I model these red ring Lanzars in WinISD then? Because they reach their incredibly low x-max with only a 100W or so, pretty much everywhere. 

So how is that going to work? Are the figures in the spec sheet not telling the whole truth? I know you said before you've used these quite a bit. How do they sound across the usable bass frequency spectrum?

specs from credence 

Power Rating RMS Cont. 150 Watts Max Power Rating-Unclipped Amp 250 Watts Freq Response 30-750 Hz Nominal Imp 4 Ohms Voice Coil 2" 4 Layer FS 35.22 Hz Qms 9.101 Qes 0.4196 Qts 0.4011 Vas 90.77 Liters Cms 0.2241E-03 M/N Re 3.57Ohms BL 13.100 Newtons/Amp Sd 0.053707 Sq. m. Mms 0.091136 Kg Hvc 0.650" Hag 0.375" Xmax 0.138" Xlin 0.275" Ref Eff 0.9083% Predicted Output 91.782DB/1W/1M


I'll pull the trigger on these if you think they will do the trick and still sound decent.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

bump for feedback. Finger on the trigger on 4 of these Lanzars, but the numbers don't add up like I said in my last post.

While cycling through other options, I found:

Set of 4 Cadence ZXW10-2 vented with 6.5 cubes tuned at 30hz 
Set of 4 RE Audio REx10D4 vented with 6.5 cubes tuned at 28hz


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Am I getting false info when I model these red ring Lanzars in WinISD then? Because they reach their incredibly low x-max with only a 100W or so, pretty much everywhere.


They are short throw by today's comparisons. Lanzar's are famous for low notes, but they do not achieve it by stretching three inches out of the box. These subs will test your box building skills, but the payoff is a very musically rewarding experience with a lot of (did I say a LOT of?) low end. They were in the top of their game in 1993, and today there are subs with lots more travel. You have to decide to build an old school box for an old school sub or a new school box for a new school sub. They are not to be feared, and they did not come to be legends of the old school by accident. You just have to dedicate yourself to them and build them to hammer. The decision however, is yours not mine.  They will handle their power if the box is tuned properly. Biggest problem I had with them was bottoming them out in a box I had that was too big. Build slightly smaller to handle the lowest notes a bit more gracefully. I'd bottom them out on Techmaster PEB. 

I grew up building the boxes on paper with a ruler so I don't do software or I'd be more helpful on ideas, but I know if you have room to put them at least 1.5 ft apart in the middle and fire them 2+2 at each other with three sides closed and one side open they'll really dig the wax out of your ears.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Interesting. 

Well I'll probably pull the trigger on 4 of them and try some things out.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

This is as good as my model gets.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah, I see what you are saying. Manifold-style, no wedge. I can definitely do that, but I'm going to have less space overall than ~12cu ft. More like 7. But I can polyfil, and that should net a ~30% perceived increase in volume.

My current plan if I go with the Lanzars is to make two boxes, each one with 2 subs and a port. This will let me physically install it into the car. I would split lengthwise, with some space between each set of subs, just like your pic but probably a little less space overall. I might also invert half of them, to lower the air space needs and gain a little improvement on non-linear distortion. 


One of my backup plan is to use 4 JBL GT5-10's, which run right at $200 for all of them. They could all go in a single plane across the back seat, with a slot port on each side, again this would be two boxes but mirrored, so I can physically install them. One huge box will never make it into the vehicle, through the trunk opening or through the rear door opening for that matter. Splitting it up and then making some simple beauty boards only makes sense.

Another idea is the Cadence models I showed above. They would be under $200 for 4, and apparently they model REALLY well in a 6.5 cube box tuned 27-30hz. 

I think I'm going to do one of these types of 4 pack of subs, and blow his friggin' socks off.

The difficulty I'm having is that the Lanzars show excursion limitation in the 4mm range. So by all measures that means I'm going to bottom out at 50W or so per sub. The total SPL capable will be less than the other ~$200 options. So, I'm hemming and hawing.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Because they are kevlar coated pressed paper cones, they will surprise you. They might just come out with something you don't expect.  He'll appreciate their solid sound.


----------



## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

PM sent, fourthmeal.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

i believe, 

1 good quality large driver with head room,

will be better then, 

4 smaller lower quality drivers under driven.

buy a well respected 15 that can handle 900 wrms and have 1200 wrms on tap in a ported enclosure.

my 0.2 cents


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I like using a single 15", I'm not against it. But SPL-wise, the 4 12's will DESTROY it. Especially ported.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> I like using a single 15", I'm not against it. But SPL-wise, the 4 12's will DESTROY it. Especially ported.


IF the 12s can move more air.

when we use 1000 watts to drive 4 12s each 12 gets 250 watts.

so what x max will the 15 achieve with 1000 watts ? 

compared to the 12s seeing 250 each? 

and with what kind of control/dynamics?

do 4 x 12s a little sloppy actually hit as hard and sound as good as 1 x 15 wanging tight?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

60ndown said:


> IF the 12s can move more air.
> 
> when we use 1000 watts to drive 4 12s each 12 gets 250 watts.
> 
> ...



Usually a lower xmax sub will sound better, more linear. More of them will sound the same but 6dB louder per sub assuming equal power added.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

There isn't a 15 in this budget that will be anywhere near these 4 Lanzar 12's. I'd stick 150-200 rms each on them. That's where they seem to like to play. (provided you use them and not something else). Anything from that number down will work, but they do love the power long as they are in a box that commands cone control and not free air.

Tell ya what, try them and if they don't work you never have to listen to me again.  They will work......very well. I saw your numbers and they are for whatever reason too low. Expect more.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

Hey Fourth, since you have the space, and power, why not 3 or 4 of the infinity REF's for 50 bucks per at Crutchfielf? 4 of em (plus a foot of speaker wire) will get you to 200, for the 20 buck of coupon, and free shipping, so 180 for the 4 of em, 12.5mm of excursion, low distortion drivers, good stuffs.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

ALPINE SWR-1522D 15" TYPE-R CAR AUDIO STEREO SUB WOOFER - eBay (item 180411659210 end time Apr-22-10 15:15:39 PDT)


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

el_chupo_ said:


> Hey Fourth, since you have the space, and power, why not 3 or 4 of the infinity REF's for 50 bucks per at Crutchfielf? 4 of em (plus a foot of speaker wire) will get you to 200, for the 20 buck of coupon, and free shipping, so 180 for the 4 of em, 12.5mm of excursion, low distortion drivers, good stuffs.



Its not a bad idea. The JBL GT5 beats it by just a bit in excursion and box size requirements, and priced within 5 bucks of that though. But its not a bad idea at all.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> There isn't a 15 in this budget that will be anywhere near these 4 Lanzar 12's. I'd stick 150-200 rms each on them. That's where they seem to like to play. (provided you use them and not something else). Anything from that number down will work, but they do love the power long as they are in a box that commands cone control and not free air.
> 
> Tell ya what, try them and if they don't work you never have to listen to me again.  They will work......very well. I saw your numbers and they are for whatever reason too low. Expect more.



You got it.

Ordering 4 of them.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OK, ordered 4. Let's hope we can make them sing.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Something like that maybe. Going to need to max it out on polyfil though.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Low Xmax screams "ported box". I know you're already heading that way but I thought I'd mention it anyway. I remember back in the day I ran my Lanzars ported and they were pretty damned amazing.


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

I dont think 1 single ported 15 or an array of low xmax 12's could be capable of real "hair tricks" and still be capable of "sq"


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> Something like that maybe. Going to need to max it out on polyfil though.


so you are using 2 woofers loaded against each other and possibly the vent while the other 2 have less loading? I'll let the SPL guys chime in on that but it looks a bit weird to me.


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## eggyhustles (Sep 18, 2008)

60ndown said:


> i believe,
> 
> 1 good quality large driver with head room,
> 
> ...


def won't do a hair trick with 1000w


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

quality_sound said:


> Low Xmax screams "ported box". I know you're already heading that way but I thought I'd mention it anyway. I remember back in the day I ran my Lanzars ported and they were pretty damned amazing.


They are indeed. I don't know if lanzar is lying, or the subs are just part of a design that resists this new software, but they are capable of a lot more than the software is saying.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Something like that maybe. Going to need to max it out on polyfil though.


I don't know anything about the software so I just have to say looks good.  Might wanna mock that up and give it some juice before going all the way.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> They are indeed. I don't know if lanzar is lying, or the subs are just part of a design that resists this new software, but they are capable of a lot more than the software is saying.


I had better luck with the 12's in modeling than the 10's to be honest, and I'm not just saying that because yall know how I feel about sub size.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm also working on a setup where they all face the center. Just tooling with ideas before they arrive. Already decided if they don't perform I'll build some home theater boxes for them and get something else for the car (like a stack of JBL 10's or those Cadence drivers on sale)


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

Fourth, right off the bat I have a few concerns with that design.

My main concern is that this shape introduces a few variables that are difficult to model. For instance, are you sure you know the effective port length when you mount them this way? Are you sure the space between the two center-firing woofers will not act as an additional chamber, or perhaps cause interference with the normal operation of the port? Not that this couldn't work, but it may not model correctly as a standard vented enclosure. I don't want to spoil your fun, I'm just wondering if you've already taken these factors into account.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I have not. I'll keep working on plausible designs. As always thanks for the feedback on these things.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I'll be building my isobaric box tomorrow with actual 1992 model Lanzar tens (these were sold 89 - 92) that are N.O.S. so I'll be having fun as well. Due to the low power old school build it's gonna be Particle Board instead of MDF. It was plywood in the 70's, particle board in the 80's, and MDF in the 90's , but I'll be using an amp from 1983 (punch 150 1st gen) and subs designed in '89. I'm a period correct kinda guy.  Point being, I'll throw you a pic when I am done. These are the NIB's I am using.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OK, here's a new idea. The factory trunk looks like this:

The box will sit 3.5" higher than the trunk floor, to match up with the rear seats when they sit flat. 




































That space in the back there will be a board cut to match to the factory trunk contours vertically. And I'll use some thick weatherstripping tape to effectively seal the enclosure from the rest of the trunk. 

That port is a 6" tube, and will have flanged ends (but those are a ***** to draw.) 

Any troubles with this design? It takes up almost the entire trunk.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I like it. Knowing Lanzar.... I like it. The box is great for them, hit the airspace and port and it'll kill.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Good. Because it kills the trunk! LOL.

Lots o' polyfil, that's for sure.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I had some ideas floating around in my head last night. What do you guys think about Sakrete (Sonotube) 12" tubes are dirt-cheap, and lightweight. I don't think I can fit 4, but I do think I can get 3. At 24" long, I'm getting approx 1.5 cubic feet before polyfil, and I could do ~27-28" max no problem. I could port the back, using traditional round tube port(s). 


Also, I wanted to ask thoughts on Isobarik loading. ISO-loading of course produces less SPL, but for the space I can tune lower and more flat.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> I had some ideas floating around in my head last night. What do you guys think about Sakrete (Sonotube) 12" tubes are dirt-cheap, and lightweight. I don't think I can fit 4, but I do think I can get 3. At 24" long, I'm getting approx 1.5 cubic feet before polyfil, and I could do ~27-28" max no problem. I could port the back, using traditional round tube port(s).
> 
> 
> Also, I wanted to ask thoughts on Isobarik loading. *ISO-loading of course produces less SPL*, but for the space I can tune lower and more flat.


Who told you that? It's less efficient because you're basically using two motor and suspension assemblies to drive the cone area of a single driver but it loses no SPL over a single driver. You just have to stop thinking of it like 2 drivers, because in an Isobarik configuration it's not.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Who told you that? It's less efficient because you're basically using two motor and suspension assemblies to drive the cone area of a single driver but it loses no SPL over a single driver. You just have to stop thinking of it like 2 drivers, because in an Isobarik configuration it's not.



I think isobaric is 3dB less efficient given the "rules" of it. 

Wiki:

The two drivers operating in tandem exhibit:


A resonant frequency that is lower than that of the single driver by a factor of .707 (i.e. divided by the square root of 2)
Twice the moving mass compared to the single driver (this is essentially the same statement as the previous one), but without the concomitant rise in mechanical Q factor an ordinary doubling of mass would entail
Lower even-order distortion above the resonant frequency, due to the lack of air compression in the front chamber
Halving of the electrical impedance if the drivers are connected in parallel (the most common arrangement), which in turn doubles the electrical current requirements for the amplifier. This produces an _apparent_ 3 dB increase in sensitivity because of the lowered impedance
Conversely, connecting the drivers in series will produce an _apparent_ 3 dB decrease in sensitivity and double the impedance, with a halving of electrical current requirements for the amplifier
 
Obviously, doubling the driver cost


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

ISO might work if ultimate SPL can be compromised, that's what I'm catching here. The three subs in sonotubes might be the lightest solution though.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> I think isobaric is 3dB less efficient given the "rules" of it.


I know the rules, but efficiency has nothing to do with SPL. The only time it would even matter would be if you ran out of power. But you also have to remember that you can also halve the impedance and get most of the efficiency lost back in the form of more power. The only real negatives are cost and the space the exposed motor takes up.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> I know the rules, but efficiency has nothing to do with SPL. The only time it would even matter would be if you ran out of power. But you also have to remember that you can also halve the impedance and get most of the efficiency lost back in the form of more power. The only real negatives are cost and the space the exposed motor takes up.



It will matter because I'll run out of excursion first. I'll have roughly twice as much power as I'll need, but we all know how that goes...it doesn't matter w/ music. But... the space requirements 1/2 and that's NICE. 


I'm doing this thought-train because 4 drivers in a semi-optimal box will pretty much BE the trunk.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

You won't get enough "punch". The guy wanted SPL first and SQ next, but in this plan you're losing a driver AND going to a tube so throwing both out the door in a way.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> You won't get enough "punch". The guy wanted SPL first and SQ next, but in this plan you're losing a driver AND going to a tube so throwing both out the door in a way.



You are 100% correct, but I am thinking along this line because I don't have the space to give 4 subs the right amount of room. Going to 3 and optimizing them for the space might give me more usable output, that's the lines of thought I'm having. I can always make him a home theater box with that last sub, something he wanted later as well.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

The reason I was saying build a box dual isobaric like I had drawn out was because that way you can concentrate less on the space behind the sub and more in front of it between the two subs in the third chamber that way you can cut a little airspace down. Even with the third chamber open face, it will perform by the distance to each sub because the chamber walls will be 48 inches of subwoofer. (tuned walls) I know your head is wrapped around a huge refrigerator tuned down in the earthquake zone, but if he wants loud AND sq, give him what he wants....... tune higher and use smaller airspace with plenty of power. That way he can power the low notes and stay tight. That's where I suggest the three chamber isobaric. I know I am biased to my idea D), but that's exactly why this setup came into my head to begin with. small, tight, isobaric tuned third chamber, big wad of power to shove the notes through. Techno and trance depend on the electronic kick drum and that will get sloppy in too big of a box with older drivers.

You'll still lose the trunk no matter what, but you'll get the sound. Now if these turn out to be the OA drivers and need the airspace then you'll have to adjust, but their specs match the LC's so once they get there you can actually make the call.

Actually if these turn out to be the OA subs you should put 2 on each side firing to the walls, one wall down the middle of the box to separate the sets, and port it if you have the airspace, but leave it sealed if you don't. (like your last model box). You know you have to run sealed in small trunks. The box has to be as much as 30% bigger to be ported so.......


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> The reason I was saying build a box dual isobaric like I had drawn out was because that way you can concentrate less on the space behind the sub and more in front of it between the two subs in the third chamber that way you can cut a little airspace down. Even with the third chamber open face, it will perform by the distance to each sub because the chamber walls will be 48 inches of subwoofer. (tuned walls) I know your head is wrapped around a huge refrigerator tuned down in the earthquake zone, but if he wants loud AND sq, give him what he wants....... tune higher and use smaller airspace with plenty of power. That way he can power the low notes and stay tight. That's where I suggest the three chamber isobaric. I know I am biased to my idea D), but that's exactly why this setup came into my head to begin with. small, tight, isobaric tuned third chamber, big wad of power to shove the notes through. Techno and trance depend on the electronic kick drum and that will get sloppy in too big of a box with older drivers.
> 
> You'll still lose the trunk no matter what, but you'll get the sound. Now if these turn out to be the OA drivers and need the airspace then you'll have to adjust, but their specs match the LC's so once they get there you can actually make the call.
> 
> Actually if these turn out to be the OA subs you should put 2 on each side firing to the walls, one wall down the middle of the box to separate the sets, and port it if you have the airspace, but leave it sealed if you don't. (like your last model box). You know you have to run sealed in small trunks. The box has to be as much as 30% bigger to be ported so.......



LMAO, fridge is right. 6+ cubes is a LOT in a little Nissan Sentra that still needs its spare tire and room for a weekend trip or two. 

Sealed up, I reached X-max on 50W! I think I need to experiment with one sub, with a few spare boxes I have for 12's. Not afraid to get dirty.

They'll be here Friday.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

How do they model in IB in a trunk that small? I'd be they'd friggin hammer.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> How do they model in IB in a trunk that small? I'd be they'd friggin hammer.



X-max exceeded with the smallest amount of power. But at 1W-10W... WATCH OUT!.. LOL.


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## phat69 (Mar 25, 2010)

I wish I had room to store a box that would hold 4 of those when I didn't want the extra SPL lol.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well, my plan so far is to have a box that slides forward into the rear seatbacks (this vehicle folds them completely flat, a very unique design more common to SUV's, and when the box is in the seatbacks the trunk could be fully used, and spare accessed. 

I think the best thing is to stick him in my vehicle (got a pair of SI's), play the living hell out of those w/ some tough tracks, and then show him the SPL response graphs and show him the difference between what he just heard (the SI's) and what we've got possible.

IMO, I'm just happy as a peach that the Alumapros become mine in all of this. Happy, happy, happy.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Install has begun, I'm taking pics on the way. Took pics of the Sabre subs (the closeouts we've been chatting about.) Decent, not bad. 

Customer, I mean brother in law, decided to go balls to the wall w/ 4 of these suckers, big ass ported box. So, we're bringing it, basically. I showed him how much trunk he would have left after this box was done, and got approval to build the monstrosity.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

So i havent read through the whole thread, so a sub may have been decided. If he wants a fair amount of SPL for cheap, AQ SDC2.5s? They are relatively cheap, are D4, so a pair brings it to 1 ohm, and the amp you said will be used will be a fair amount of power for them. They like big ports and high tuning. They play WELL below tuning. Use a pair of 10s, since i doubt 12s will fit in your space constraints.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

siucsaluki11 said:


> So i havent read through the whole thread, so a sub may have been decided. If he wants a fair amount of SPL for cheap, AQ SDC2.5s? They are relatively cheap, are D4, so a pair brings it to 1 ohm, and the amp you said will be used will be a fair amount of power for them. They like big ports and high tuning. They play WELL below tuning. Use a pair of 10s, since i doubt 12s will fit in your space constraints.


Appreciated but what we did was go with a quad of closeouts from Credence Speaker's stash, a set of old-school red ring Lanzars made for big ported boxes.


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## huckorris (Sep 2, 2009)

Cool build. I look forward to your review of the PG RSD's, especially active. Not to mention the old skool lanzars.

This is kinda off topic but my buddy used to be into car audio and said he used to have some alumapros in his old integra. He was saying how loud, clean and snappy they were but back in high school a lot of people couldn't tell the difference with no sq reference. I havn't had too much luck with finding good info on them.

How would the alumapros compare to modern day stuff?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Took pics of the Sabre subs (the closeouts we've been chatting about.) Decent, not bad.


Giggity.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Oh man look what I found. I took this pic in 1992. Fyi- this box was entirely too small. Lol.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Ever so slight update:

The install of the Sentra was a total *****. I will tell you now I hope none of you ever have to work on a modern ~'10 Sentra. One look at the battery terminal told me I was in for a world of hurt. Integrated fusing, completely proprietary design meant I had to fabricate a new fuse system using a fused distribution block, same type used in the trunk for amps! I have never been so frustrated in my entire life. Insulting me further, I pulled the door skins and fabbed up a replacement for the cheap plastic 6x9 mounts, only to find that the clearances were FAR more delicate than I bet on, forcing me to throw away 6 hours worth of work when the door met the mount at places I never planned on. Yay me, lesson learned do not fabricate when your mind is distracted with other things like _life_. Anyway, I reverted back to the factory plastic part, built around it for another go-around, and succeeded in installing the door speakers. Finally, as dusk set and my light went away on the final day of the build (whether I was done or not), We quickly stuffed just one Sabre 12" in a spare box I had lying around, with "who know's what" for tuning just know its about 1.5 cubic feet w/ a rectangle port that wraps about halfway down in the box. Turns out, I got damn lucky because that sucker hits pretty hard and sounds clean. These are nice subs after all! Anyway, that car took a lot out of me and the pollen in the air took the rest out of me, so I'm going to build the massive 4-sub box after I recover.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

> > *Originally Posted by audiogodz1*
> >
> > Tell ya what, try them and if they don't work you never have to listen to me again.
> 
> ...





> that sucker hits pretty hard and sounds clean. These are nice subs after all!





Hey, send me a few pics of that thing to my email if you get time since you are in recovery mode.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I can do it when I get home. Got them on the phone's mem card. Standby.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Pics:


































How's that?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

awesome. They are just like the LC's I owned in 92 that I posted above. Only difference is Lanzar painted the basket gloss black, had a slightly bigger dustcap, and had this sticker.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Actually I have one question.... is the surround a rich red color like in my pic or more washed out like the phone makes it look?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

they are washed out in the site pics too.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I know that's why I was hoping they were just shatty pics somehow. LOL. The Cerwin vega red rings are as red as the original lanzars are.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

my replacement cerwin foams were pinker, but they came from OCS and are "double foam"










For color reference there is a deep red trashcan upper left and upper right is an orange husqvarna chainsaw box.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Phone? LOL I hate using a phone for pics, chroma error and lens aberration is just too much for me. No, that's the actual color, from a Nikon P50.

They are a bit washed. Not pink but not blood red.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Phone? LOL I hate using a phone for pics, chroma error and lens aberration is just too much for me. No, that's the actual color, from a Nikon P50.
> 
> They are a bit washed. Not pink but not blood red.





> I can do it when I get home. Got them on the phone's mem card. Standby.


Going on previous info  

Well I do wish they were darker red, but it's cool. They'll still sound good when my 8 get here  Outta be a fun build in my truck bed. I haven't done a port through in years. 

....and I can't wait to see how this finally turns out as well.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

You know, 8 of these isobaric would be pretty slick. About 5 cubic feet, ported to 33hz, damn that would be intense


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

fourthmeal said:


> Ever so slight update:
> 
> The install of the Sentra was a total *****. I will tell you now I hope none of you ever have to work on a modern ~'10 Sentra. One look at the battery terminal told me I was in for a world of hurt. Integrated fusing, completely proprietary design meant I had to fabricate a new fuse system using a fused distribution block, same type used in the trunk for amps! I have never been so frustrated in my entire life. Insulting me further, I pulled the door skins and fabbed up a replacement for the cheap plastic 6x9 mounts, only to find that the clearances were FAR more delicate than I bet on, forcing me to throw away 6 hours worth of work when the door met the mount at places I never planned on. Yay me, lesson learned do not fabricate when your mind is distracted with other things like _life_. Anyway, I reverted back to the factory plastic part, built around it for another go-around, and succeeded in installing the door speakers. Finally, as dusk set and my light went away on the final day of the build (whether I was done or not), We quickly stuffed just one Sabre 12" in a spare box I had lying around, with "who know's what" for tuning just know its about 1.5 cubic feet w/ a rectangle port that wraps about halfway down in the box. Turns out, I got damn lucky because that sucker hits pretty hard and sounds clean. These are nice subs after all! Anyway, that car took a lot out of me and the pollen in the air took the rest out of me, so I'm going to build the massive 4-sub box after I recover.


This is the Nissan plague. I feel bad that I forgot to warn you. These days, I have to charge extra to install in newer cars, especially Japanese ones. Regardless, I hope the rest of the build is less frustrating. Did you ever settle on a box design? I'd still be glad to help if needed.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Those Sabres are begging for Funky Pup dustcaps


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> This is the Nissan plague. I feel bad that I forgot to warn you. These days, I have to charge extra to install in newer cars, especially Japanese ones. Regardless, I hope the rest of the build is less frustrating. Did you ever settle on a box design? I'd still be glad to help if needed.


Right you are. I can tell this car is probably a turn-off for any audio enthusiast looking to go beyond ~8 gauge power wire. 

Yeah we're going to work on the box in a couple weeks when he gets back in town. Probably end up with 4 of the Sabres in a "boxer" 4 configuration, with a rectangle vent on each end (or possibly a big one in the front.) Box will take up MOST of the trunk, but will also be positioned 3.5" off the trunk floor to land parallel to the rear seatbacks when they are flattened. This will let the box slide right into the cabin for SPL competition, as well as to allow access of the spare tire. The amps and processor will stay stationary, so I only need to make the speaker wire to the box a little longer to allow the travel. Simple, but very effective.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

Just ran into the same problem with the battery terminal. Now i just need to locate some 1/0 ring terminals and ill be set.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I want to see this demon terminal.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

audiogodz1 said:


> I want to see this demon terminal.


I heard it will make you go blind and your palms will grow hair.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

chad said:


> I heard it will make you go blind and your palms will grow hair.


Yet another something on the endless list of things that I've been threatened will grow hair on my palms and it has yet to happen.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

audiogodz1 said:


> I want to see this demon terminal.


Running outside to snap a pic in a min.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

Its dark, so i was shooting blind, heres what ive got.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

i'm blind


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

good, you wont be able to see your palms when they start growing hair.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

Chad, by any chance, you know a guy named Nathan Q? Goes by the name Bacon. Got s gold silverado and a red Monte? And last i knew he had a bubble caprice project he was workin on for a show car.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

nope... where is he located?


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

Down in your area. His dad owns a far. Hes about 26 now. He has worked at a few shops down the the Champaign area in the past and was an instructor at Acoustic Edge when they were open. Thats where i know him from. Really a fun guy, was just wondering if audio had made your paths cross by any chance.

Not sure of the town, said its like 20 min or so outside Champaign. Also said they have/had the tallest grain elevator or something like that. I guess its a big one.

And there was some film that was supposedly took place in that town forever ago. Old crappy movie i guess it was.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

damn.. dunno, we have a lot of TALL elevators. I'm from Gibson City and they have central Soya and Cargill.. those are some big mo-fros. maybe there? You can get to C-U from there if you haul ass.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

He hauls serious ass. So 20 min is a big area out there in the stix.


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## SQ_Blaze (Sep 29, 2008)

I haven't read the entire thread, but just a little food for thought, I had a Rockford HX2 15" in a 4cf slot ported enclosure (can't remember what tuning freq) and a Hifonics Brutus amp pushing 1500w @ 1 ohm. It was enough power and output to make all four doors, all the glass and the trunk lid to flex nearly 0.25". Actually, the trunk lid moved nearly a 0.5".

Oh, that setup cost me maybe $700 and I had the driver facing towards the back of the car.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I'll look around for you and see if I can find a stock pic:








OK that thing to the left as part of the battery term. is actually 4 fuses vertically, with weatherpak connectors leading to what felt like 8 gauge maybe 10 gauge wiring, x 4. So what I did was take a spare Scosche EFX 4 fused distribution block in my stash and mount it vertically. I also ran the alternator's feed to the block's extra 1/0 input while I was at it.

btw that pic blows up huge, you can barely see the brown weatherpak terminal that made up one of the fuse points.

LOL... the pic I linked didn't stick. Let's try again:










I don't have pics of the finished solution, I was so frustrated quite literally taking a pic was the last thing on my mind.


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## siucsaluki11 (Dec 27, 2008)

pics of what you did please? I may be grabbing a dist block today to do the same.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

siucsaluki11 said:


> pics of what you did please? I may be grabbing a dist block today to do the same.



I used this one:








I turned it so the 4 ports faced down, and that let me wiggle the 4 different wires into it. The fuses face the engine itself, and the alternator wire was just long enough to make it to the side port wire opening at the top of this block. And the PG fused battery block that I keep showing you guys to buy is what I used to make the final connection. 

Pain in the ASS though.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well 2 weeks later,... the car will be back in my hands for the SPL box this weekend. Over the last couple weeks I've drafted tons of different designs, all big and bulky but that's the name of the game. 

I'll do my best to keep a photographic eye going on the build. Its a real PITA to try and keep a camera going during a build though.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

I was gonna bump this and ask how it was chuggin' along. Sounds like you are gonna have fun.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Hope so. Still debating firing all the subs upward, or in a boxer configuration. Probably will be deciding that about 5 minutes before the first cut of wood.


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## galacticmonkey (Apr 28, 2010)

As said, it comes down to using nice stuff and using alot of it.

My last system consisted of a bunch of pro audio highs (sounded good, but not a sq setup). The highs were 8 Eminence Delta 10s, 8 Eminence Alpha 6s, and 16 Selenium ST350 tweeters. Had about 4,000rms on highs. They had really good midbass and were very clean actually. Obviously not meant to sound good, they actually did sound pretty good and got way loud.

The substage was 24 15" Ascendant Audio Chaos subs ran off of 6 Sundown SAZ-3000Ds. Had a big bandpass that was 50 cubes sealed, 35 ported with 1,000in^ of port @ 47hz. The subs sounded amazing. They did just as well playing music at 158db as they did turned down playing rock. Very punchy and accurate. 

If I got some nice component sets, it would have actually been a great SQL system. Heres what it looked like. I dont know much about SQ stuff, but if you want a hand with a box design for a nice ported or bandpass SQL system, send me a PM.

YouTube - 24 15s - Hairtrick

YouTube - 24 15s - Ascendant/Sundown

YouTube - more of gmonks van

YouTube - temp27


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## galacticmonkey (Apr 28, 2010)

So I was thinking if you could stuff like 2 nice 15s in the trunk and do a bandpass and port it through a skihole or rear deck you would be plenty loud and still have a nice solid sound.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

galacticmonkey said:


> As said, it comes down to using nice stuff and using alot of it.
> 
> My last system consisted of a bunch of pro audio highs (sounded good, but not a sq setup). The highs were 8 Eminence Delta 10s, 8 Eminence Alpha 6s, and 16 Selenium ST350 tweeters. Had about 4,000rms on highs. They had really good midbass and were very clean actually. Obviously not meant to sound good, they actually did sound pretty good and got way loud.
> 
> ...



sucks you don't still have that, that has to be retarded loud in person lol. I almost bought a few chaos's for a friend. You have a new build going? what's in your current car?


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## galacticmonkey (Apr 28, 2010)

Right now I have a 2002 Avalanche. Just a simple daily ride. Originally it had 2 AA Mayhem 18s in a 35 cubic foot 4th order bandpass blowthrough. Got really loud and sounded good. Ripped it out to do a huge wall, but ended up getting an Astro to build instead.

For a small system in my truck I got a set of Hertz HSK 165s on a MB Quart DSC2150, a pair of IDQ V3 10s on a MB Quart DSC1500, all ran off a Pioneer 880PRS. Got all the stuff laying around, just gotta get it put in. Havent had much time lately.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thirty-Five cubic feet, simple daily ride.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well, the day came and we talked about what box to build, and my brother in law surprised me with a sudden change of heart over taking his entire trunk up. Instead, he decided to use the trio of Alumapros we originally purchased for him, and that's what I worked with. Here's what I got done so far. This represents about 8 hours of work. 











































That top board matches the box's sides exactly, so it will be a tight seal. This should work for a decent 3 ten setup. It is ~2.2 cubic feet, nearly perfect for the Alumapros once polyfil is added. 


Tomorrow is finishing of the amp rack, carpeting, and of course wiring it up and making it all work.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

Do you think it needs to be braced?


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

bkjay said:


> Do you think it needs to be braced?


I think it does.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Well, the day came and we talked about what box to build, and my brother in law surprised me with a sudden change of heart over taking his entire trunk up. Instead, he decided to use the trio of Alumapros we originally purchased for him, and that's what I worked with. Here's what I got done so far. This represents about 8 hours of work.


Him = chickensh&t.

That is all.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

bkjay said:


> Do you think it needs to be braced?



Definitely. I plan on bracing it with closet rod, the baffle to the back, two per void in the center. 

Its a pretty stiff plywood, but Tyler at TJ is concerned about it and I can say he's got more experience than I. I almost always brace but I usually do it dead-last, right before carpet.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

audiogodz1 said:


> Him = chickensh&t.
> 
> That is all.



Nah, he's becoming more intelligent in his use of his only car, and because he travels from work in Lemoore to Vegas on a very regular basis, I'm happy to see he'll have a more "stealth", more subdued system. And I'm sure we can all be sure that this system will sound more refined, more "SQ" if you will.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

fourthmeal said:


> Nah, he's becoming more intelligent in his use of his only car, and because he travels from work in Lemoore to Vegas on a very regular basis, I'm happy to see he'll have a more "stealth", more subdued system. And I'm sure we can all be sure that this system will sound more refined, more "SQ" if you will.


So he will get the exact opposite of what he actually asked for initially by changing his mind. His intentions were always for loud and hair tricks..... with "sq". All that basically means is he wanted it loud as balls and not all ghetto sounding. He almost had it. 

One thing is for sure, he might like it, but he sure as hell isn't getting any hair tricks with 3 tens. LOL. I do hope he enjoys it though, as that is most important.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

fourthmeal said:


> Definitely. I plan on bracing it with closet rod, the baffle to the back, two per void in the center.
> 
> Its a pretty stiff plywood, but Tyler at TJ is concerned about it and I can say he's got more experience than I. I almost always brace but I usually do it dead-last, right before carpet.


But hey, you diagnosed my car in like 5 minutes flat, after I had already spun my wheels for 8 hours. I think it all averages out in the long run.  If you're using dowels like you said, it wouldn't hurt to brace top and bottom together as well. The ends are small enough I wouldn't worry about them.



fourthmeal said:


> Nah, he's becoming more intelligent in his use of his only car, and because he travels from work in Lemoore to Vegas on a very regular basis, I'm happy to see he'll have a more "stealth", more subdued system. And I'm sure we can all be sure that this system will sound more refined, more "SQ" if you will.


Intelligent, or boring? Who says four twelves can't sound good? Clearly the solution is to own more than one vehicle. 









:laugh:


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well here's what happened to make him decide these subs... He was really impressed with just one Lanzar sub, in what was an unplanned box (not my tune.) So I took that random box's specs, measured it up and found it was actually tuned just about right (about 35hz.) Well I asked him, based on that one single sub's sound and how it sounded in the car, how much louder he wanted it than that. And he said it was very impressive just like that. And when we talked about low frequency extension, he said he wouldn't mind going lower without compromising what he heard with the single sub. Naturally, all I had to do there is power up WinISD, plot what he heard from the Lanzar box, and show him the projected plots for more Lanzars, the Alumapros, and my Stereo Integrity subs in my truck. Well the plot on the SI's and Alumapros are within a few db of each other, about the same plot slope and everything. And cranking up the tunes in my truck showed him what that was like (plus cabin gain of course.) Believe me, before we started cutting some wood, I asked SEVERAL times if this is the direction of choice FOR SURE. He agreed and we both decided that we'd just build some home theater cubes and slap the Lanzars in those since they are so damn efficient. 


It means I'm going to get something different for my car, still leaning towards an CSS SDX15 or AE 15", firing right through the ski hole.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

FYI because the build went an entirely different direction, I decided to make a build log aside from this thread.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/80848-2010-nissan-sentra-my-brother-law.html

Thanks for looking.


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## bumpinP (May 5, 2010)

Sending a pm to audiogodz1 about Credence SAbre's. (New user and required to post to a thread prior to sending my first pm)

PS - Going through all that trouble for a brother in law is really impressive. Hope he knows how lucky he is to have you taking care of his tunes.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

bumpinP said:


> Sending a pm to audiogodz1 about Credence SAbre's. (New user and required to post to a thread prior to sending my first pm)
> 
> PS - Going through all that trouble for a brother in law is really impressive. Hope he knows how lucky he is to have you taking care of his tunes.



Thanks dude!

Btw I have 4 of those suckers if anybody needs them.

3 brand new, one used for 2 weeks. 

If nobody needs them, I'm going to make some home theater subs or something.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> Well here's what happened to make him decide these subs... He was really impressed with just one Lanzar sub, in what was an unplanned box (not my tune.) So I took that random box's specs, measured it up and found it was actually tuned just about right (about 35hz.) Well I asked him, based on that one single sub's sound and how it sounded in the car, how much louder he wanted it than that. And he said it was very impressive just like that. And when we talked about low frequency extension, he said he wouldn't mind going lower without compromising what he heard with the single sub. Naturally, all I had to do there is power up WinISD, plot what he heard from the Lanzar box, and show him the projected plots for more Lanzars, the Alumapros, and my Stereo Integrity subs in my truck. Well the plot on the SI's and Alumapros are within a few db of each other, about the same plot slope and everything. And cranking up the tunes in my truck showed him what that was like (plus cabin gain of course.) Believe me, before we started cutting some wood, I asked SEVERAL times if this is the direction of choice FOR SURE. He agreed and we both decided that we'd just build some home theater cubes and slap the Lanzars in those since they are so damn efficient.
> 
> 
> It means I'm going to get something different for my car, still leaning towards an CSS SDX15 or AE 15", firing right through the ski hole.




Unless your in canada and ordering from solen as a result, I'd go with a tempest x before the SDX. I've heard some people say the CSS didn't make most of it's t/s specs, including xmax. The AE's are very nice as well.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah, def. not in Canada. I'm in Vegas.

I'm leaning heavily towards the AE AV15H. It just seems ideal for car audio use, ~2 cubic feet sealed. And it specs out with nearly the exact same frequency response as the trio of Alumapros, at the same power spec. And the builder/owner of AE and their forum is impressive. I've heard he can even make the cone in black!


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> Yeah, def. not in Canada. I'm in Vegas.
> 
> I'm leaning heavily towards the AE AV15H. It just seems ideal for car audio use, ~2 cubic feet sealed. And it specs out with nearly the exact same frequency response as the trio of Alumapros, at the same power spec. And the builder/owner of AE and their forum is impressive. I've heard he can even make the cone in black!


Yeah I'm using a set of av15's myself. My cabin gain sucks down low overall so I'm ported tuned low. Still small, box only about 2.5 cubes for each 15. These things model really well in small ported enclosures, you just gotta fit the correct size vent or use passive radiators. Either way you still get a nice falling response, just depends how much low end you need.

I use winisd the same way you, as a comparative tool to what I've heard in the same car. My ascendant audio avalanche sounded fanstatic in 2.2 cubes sealed. Just slightly lacking at 30hz compared to my cabin gain around 45. Also the top end at 60 plus was really bad, but the Avalanche is known for that. The AE's with low inductance do alot better up top, like alot alot, lol. 5 at 25hz tuning for the pair gave me similar response to 3 AA's sealed in 6.6 cubes, including slightly better effeciency than the 3 sealed and a bit more of a boost at 30 compared to the 40's.


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